Does anybody else want a biscuit? Yes please. might as well. Anyway can we after, they, they wanted a few predictions. What was the next thing they also want? They want a spread of expenditure for the contract works So what we agreed with them is that we will forthwith start sending them client reports and I've asked them if they will report back to us whether the client reports are in the form they want them. Because we feel that the client repor Some within the management team feel that the client reports, as we are proposing to issue them are heavy. In other words there's too much information in them. So they've agreed to cooperate with us in er putting together a client report or, or, or, or devising client reports which have a minimum of information but the information that they require. Not the information that we think they require. An and I'd like that team briefing as well. Cos it's quite disappointing that we actually er agreed that we'd start issuing client reports about two months, and as far as I'm aware nobody started issuing them. Leeds North Wes gonna have to wait for the erm No. That's done. That's all done? A a apart from Chris and Bill, I've sat down with all the M S fours an and been through the changes to the appointment contract, and how they now erm form the basis of the er interim client report. Th the, the, the interim client report is ready I mean you could use it today. Erm if that's what people . Er if you like when I go through it with Chris and Bill, I'll you know invite you in and we'll we'll, we'll, we'll . you say. Well so in other words you haven't done the bridge office? That's right. Yeah. Because they weren't available when Yeah. when I did everybody else and erm I, I Oh yeah. I'd like to be in on that. Yeah. Er but but the report, er the database has now been rationalized in accordance with the paper I've put to you. Yeah. The appointment contracts and variations have been changed in accordance with the paper I've put to you. The sort of Toytown Railway example is now up and running. The interim client report which I showed as, again as an example which I provided you a copy with, is now available. So effectively you've had that information all you've actually got to do is to make sure that the text within the general notes of the Mm. database is relevant and then on all open projects your clerks can produce these reports for your project coordinators to sign off. The only problem is that the first time you do it for each project if it's a ne if it's a an old project, then we are going to have to put something in the field which summarizes the total remit for the whole of the group to date. Er a and that's a one off exercise I, I think we should let old projects run the, run the course frankly. Well you can't do that with bridge projects Jim. Y you can in Well no. No. your office but you can't do it We'll put in large ones but I mean I've got a you know No. No. No. No. a hundred projects that will disappear in three months. That's right. A a and we just let those disappear and evaporate. Yeah. Yes. I, I'm not for a minute suggesting that er th that for the small projects that we do that. But most of Roger's projects w would need tha that remit. A and really the remit is nothing other than something like undertake erm er survey work, design, detailed drawings or the reconstruction or repairs to blah blah blah blah including pre-imposed contract work. End of story. Unless we vary and it i i i we just need to put that in. A and I can get er Ken and my clerks to ferret through the old contracts, and all the variations that we've had to date, and come up with a suggested erm latest remit for the project coordinator to approve. If that's what it wants. I mean er that's a service I'm quite happy to offer. Erm so really you tell me which jobs you're gonna send reports out on,a and erm that you would like that particular field sorting out, and I will get Ken and Amanda and Kerry to er t to get something in there, so that when you pull it off erm you're happy with it or we can then edit it. It then g sets the thing right for the next variation as well, cos you use that variation er use that er latest remit within the subsequent variations to the appointment contract. I've just looked through my notes o of the meeting. They wanted from us an assurance that we would continue to provide the level of service that we have done in the past. Because they were concerned about rumours they'd heard of staff shortages within the C E D G. Perhaps we should be a bit more careful about whingeing about losing staff to Regional Railways and other people. Er a and just get on and bite the bullet and do something about it. And get on and, that's right. And get work done. But they're pinching them. ridiculous it's their department that's taking them all . Yes. But if we don't But Terry they're the client There's a fact of life isn't it? the client. Well you didn't have to, yeah. But we didn't have to, what I mean the point is that we didn't have to tell, have to tell them, they already knew. They knew that Ian had taken er or was about to take some and they knew that er Yeah. But you've got, you haven't got a problem with that old Brian 's gone. but I, I, as I understand it you haven't got a problem with workload. In fac I, from what I understand is that you've got a problem with shortage of workload. Yeah. Well I can't stop their perception of the fact that the staff that are disappearing out of the office come from the P T section. Yeah. But . You can't stop it but you can influence it. I mean if, if our, if, if we're going around whingeing that a But we're not. shortage of staff, but that was their perception Terry. Their perception was that we, we had a desperate shortage of staff Yeah. and we weren't gonna provide them with the level of service that They got the They got the feeling that we were on the ropes and I, I mean if even if we are we should we should be managing that internally. No. No. What I,w w what we've done is we've assured them that we will provide the level of service that they've had previously and if need be we will buy staff in, Yeah. agency staff or whatever, Yeah. to continue to provide them with that service. Yeah. Okay? Yeah. Aye actually you do need That's an assurance that we've given them. Yes. A actually that rumour though hasn't come from us so the comment about whingeing was wrong. I'm not bothered about where it comes from. No. But it wasn't but you see it's the fact that Ian 's gone. R Bob 's gone. Brian 's gone. Robert 's gone. All within the past about eighteen months and they were all from P T fro from Regional Railways P T type jobs. Tha that's what's happened. Fine. They've picked up their own vibes. Don't take it negatively. Mm. The, the, the positive message is that Yeah. we've given them assurance that we will provide the level of service . Good. and we need to do it. Mm. The second thing is that erm with regard to future pro projects, Regional Railways have decreed, that we will only get work through competitive tender. No. Regional Railways North East Investment have decreed that we will only get work Yeah. on competitive tender. Okay. I understood it was Regional Railways It was those Headquarters who'd decreed that we would only get work by Yeah. I can't see It's it's I I Right. Okay. I I I'll I'll check that Can you? with Richard then and see Yeah. whether or not we're gonna be in the same situation on erm on maintenance jobs. Yeah. I see this as a positive element because here for once the client's gonna have to sit down and produce a specification Put down remit. and a remit. Right. I don't think they've realized And then we will go into bat on a fixed price and we'll charge him that, whatever. And if there's a variation order we will issue a variation order And we will become variation. we will become more professional Correct. on those jobs. And it will cost him more money administrating. Er that doesn't matter i it, it, it, it will be a good exercise for us t to take advantage over this er I've warned them .? Yeah. I I, what I would say cos we will be competing against Birmingham and Glasgow. Right? We retain the work that we've already got with them. Okay? And th then we've got a lot of work at the moment which we'll retain. The future projects we're gonna have to obtain competitively. So we're te we're team briefing that as well? Yes. Yes. Are we team briefing it North East, or the whole of Regional Railways? Let's say that we have been, we've been Stick with North East advised by the New Works Manager of Regional Railways North East that work from him Mm. Will be w will be o only obtained via competitive We'll have to compete for . tender. Now the relevant point about briefing this is a you've mentioned Glasgow and Birmingham that I already knew about, that we're tendering against. But there is was some intimation that it would go externally as well. Right . Right. I, I can't comment on that Terry that is not something Well that Keith's right. Okay. But he certainly didn't suggest that. No. A a a and that's gonna cause him all sorts of admin type er Specification problems. Yes. well specification and training I mean what's he gonna do about getting people P P T S on the track? That, that's not my understanding I don't think that's at the moment. No. Okay. Now I think as a management team we need to think about what our strategy, our tactics are gonna be with regard to this. Erm because if we look at our experiences with Crossrail, if you d w what do we do? Do we go in low? No. And then, and then, then try and get money on the If I was tender if, if go in? But . No. But if, if our fee bids, that have been going in so far, are there or thereabouts and having monitored reports for quite a while, tendencies and yes some are under and some are a bit over but in general they're not th they're not that far out. Then we've gotta, we've gotta continue to tender on that same footing. We can't buy every job. But a w a word a word of er caution here is it's, it's er, er a bad scene that it's only gonna be on certain jobs. If I can just quote our experience er on this, erm we, I was able to compare our costs for design at Hounslow just er in the, just er south of Rug Rugby. Mhm. Birmingham quoted six thousand. We actually did the job for just under five. Er that wasn't er on competition though,th that was er an Intercity job which Birmingham said they could do it for that figure. Mm. Where we've been doing comparable work on er the Kings Cross Project, we wer we told by the old project team that we were very much cheaper than Birmingham. And better but that was another story. When we actually went to competitive tender, which was for a route improvement down near Leicester, they undercut us. The w we put in what we thought was a completely fair er, er quotation for what we were doing. Bearing in mind we have the more difficult travelling but they undercut us. And my suspicion is they put in a selectively low bid on that particular job. Erm we also lost out on permanent way standard drawings against the Glasgow office who were desperate for work. Mm. They put in th er a cheap price. They got the entire work. They ran out of money, and they've had to be supplemented since to get the job finished. S so they were That's why it's precisely they were . Thank you for that . But on that Leic th th the Leicester job that you l erm The line? Yeah. You'd adopted the same philosophy of pricing that. You ha because you suddenly realized you were price sensibly. in competitive tender you didn't change your philosophy? Yeah. I think you've got to price sensibly. I, I, I did not. Er, er w we costed out the job how we were going to do it our normal procedure. Yeah. Yeah. Mm. The only thing I didn't have control of w were the rates we're charging. I mean Mm. purely departmentally I Mm. could have t have knocked about twenty percent off my rates and still got them even. Which incidentally would have been enough to get the job. Yeah. Er Yeah. but erm beware. It it's a bad scene when it's i if, if it's universal, if they, if they're put in bids eventually they'll bankrupt themselves. But when it's selective and they've got a whole market to go Mm. back on, erm They're in a . my experience is they, they, they put in artificially low bids. Be because they're owned by Regional Railways and Re i if they lose money Regional Railways will . But why aren't Intercity asking Birmingham to tender against us for Intercity jobs? Don't even think about it. L let, let it Yeah. We don't want to work hard. th that I've thought about very seriously but, but Terry, think about this. What proportion of their work is Intercity? Compared with what proportion of our work is Regional Railways? Tt I wouldn't know. Anyway that looks like the only tribute problem for this financial year isn't it? Because next financial Mm. year if we're still within B R we certainly won't be part of erm Intercity? Intercity or Regional Railways. That's right. So Birmingham won't be part of Regional Railways. I mean we'll be back to the scenario that we were fighting for three years ago. That's right. Mm. So that we can perhaps get Well perhaps some method of Mm. cooperation within Mm. the other . Aye. Yeah. I The last thing we want to do is to start infighting on the S A Us Fighting them on the . because Mm. we'll Ee just do what the, what the industry outside has done and spiral down into producing lower and lower quality of services Yeah. Yeah. Hear hear. and not Yeah. serving anybody. Well I've not We did make we did make this point to Keith actually very very clearly, Yeah. that we w that we are concerned that what will happen is that everybody will start putting silly low prices in and t a and one of two things will happen. Either th the quality of service will go down, or he will have all the hassle of er not knowing, not knowing what his design Sorting out what he shouldn't be sorting out costs are gonna be. Well I just thi Because he'll be getting clobbered with claims all the time. Yeah. Yeah. So they're difficult times. I think our strategy should be that we pare our prices down, to the absolute minimum that we think we can do the work for, take a little bit more off that and hope to get some money back on variations. Because if you don't get a job you don't even have the chance of doing the work. Mm. I don't, mm I I'm not too happy with that Yeah. Well philosophy well Well I'm not happy with it th th that but I, I just think it's a matter of I'll, I'll go along with that Rog er Hugh, provided that we Forty five percent of our work is taking a bit off when we don't money gonna make any money. Perhaps i i it'll encourage us to look for a shorter route through to the, the, the solution. But th the problem is all the shortcuts are g gonna reduce the quality of service we give to the client. Like at the moment if there's anything goes wrong with possessions, it really ought to be the project manager sorting it out. Yes. Exactly. Quite. But we don't do that. We sort that out for him. Well Well perhaps we shouldn't it shouldn't Yeah. Yeah but that perhaps, perhaps that'll fall Right. to Right. But, but you see the point I'm getting at? It's the same with Lookouts as well. If there's a problem with Lookouts we do it and we for him we also Mm. look after all his safety issues. The, the problem is if it it's alright to out-price and then reducing your service, but that soon switches the client off. Yes it does. I'll go along But Terry one A and that's just as dangerous once he's as overpricing it. once he starts to Isn't it? If he starts getting, go on. once he starts to specify in a contract document, what we are pricing for, then we've got an immediate, okay, we've done this for you and this is Yeah. we've done this on a time rate and it's, it's extra. But the, the vibes are bad. But please pay us. The vibes are bad No because it would be because a all consultants are gonna do that. The vibes are bad. . Who sorted out the problems with all the possessions and supervision for Leeds North West? Yeah. Me and Roger. Not the bloody project manager. Terry the vibes are wrong all the way round. Yeah. Whatever we do it is a risky situation. Well I Yeah. Yeah. Let us I'm happy to pare the job down Hugh but I'm not happy to start taking money off. No. There's a big difference between us and consultants isn't there? Because if you Yeah. Yeah. were outside, and you were running jobs really tight, flexitime Yeah. would go out of the window, staff would be working what hours, whatever hours were necessary to get it inside the job. Yeah. Not only that staff be silly expense claims and all this staff salaries staff salaries wou let's be fair. Outside Go out the window. staff salaries have gone down over the last eighteen months Too . I was speaking to a lad who left my office to go to a consultant. And he's been there now about three years and they're just surviving, and he's says, I'm earning roughly what I was here but I'm working literally twice the hours. And he says, and if I don't, I don't have a job. That's the reality of the situation. Correct. And I, I, I think we've, we've . He has to get the job done for a price. We've got to be very careful we're not tying our hands behind our backs. No. We can't play that game. . Yes we can. B but Terry let us look at the Oh yes we can. other thing. If, if we don't We haven't decided that. if we don't work on the strategy that I've been suggesting putting it on the table If you don't do that, I can guarantee that Bill , Bill is gonna play silly buggers. That I am certain of and Bill is gonna put in silly prices. But it won't do any good though will it? But it won't do us any good either cos we won't have any work to do. It depends who gets in first doesn't it? Really? What do you mean? What? Mm? What do you mean by get in first? Well in first is getting the bloody job. Well no. If we have a if we have a There's no w what are you? Let's, let's done in that way to Yeah. start with and let him . But you've already said forty five percent of our business Is with is with Regional Railways if we're I know. gonna take forty five percent of our business at less than the cost to do the job, that don't make good business sense. No. No. No. What we're saying is that, that we're gonna have we we're gonna put a bid in put a bid in at a certain price. and then we're gonna, we're gonna work down We're gonna w to that price. Or Or recover it. Or recover it. Or recover it. By identifying gaps in their documentation in the same way as . But then you get back to what Terry said about,bloody York you'll really switch off him. you know. They look for everything. Yeah. Right Erm Roger. Yeah. you don't get the work. You don't get the work but then you But what do you want? No. But you you don't need to work for anything do you? want the hassle of getting the money? No. or do you? No. I think that o o or that I would want the hassle and not get the work. I think I think what we ought to do is we ought to point out these problems at a Oh we've covered that. We've covered that. We've pointed that out, to Keith. It's, I mean what you've gotta be is, is realistic. Keith's A and realize that K Keith, it's not Keith's decision. It's not in Keith's if Keith had the, the decision to make he would continue working with us. There's no doubt about it. It's outside of Keith, I think it's outside of David . And I believe it's with Richard Yeah. Well . going to miss us a great opportunity to learn how to do it right it's a great opportunity. Yeah. it is. It's an opportunity we're gonna have now which in two years time Yeah. But, but don't we will not have Can we just put it because . Absolutely. put it in perspective though? But don't knock any money off. All I say is, if we're gonna pare it down, let's pare it down before we start the job and put in the price it will cost. Right. Can I, can I, can I, can I re Including knocking off photographs if they say they're gonna want photographs. Right? Correct. So they don't get them. So they don't get them. Don't the cost . No. You see what this, I'll tell you what this says the staff costs it's the staff costs you've got to control Yes. If the staff can't to do it at within the cost, outside, Mm. then staff simply work for nothing. It's as simple as that. They have to work for nothing to get the job done. Yeah. Mm. That's a reality, and I don't see why this office should not consider the fact that they may have to get involved in that. We may very well Well have to do that. but until he shows national agreements to them you'll never get that agreed will ? Well some of them ? are not national agreements. What, what erm makes you think they are and you can't Bill People work overtime and they get paid for it. by what he's done so far in . Full stop. more payment. Yeah. Right. Bill Bill has Standard conditions. Bill has worked very hard to preserve Glasgow's position Mm. in terms of, I mean Bill was the one who drafted up the th the rules of er distribution of work between Mhm. organizations. It was his idea. He got it written er if you remember the rules of the game are that all Regional Railways work will go to a Regional Railways office and they will decide if it goes out. If it goes out. Yeah. Yeah. Ditto for Intercity erm intentionally I've played a very low profile game on this. And if you like ignored those because we had more to lose. Yeah. But that's the only reason why. If I'd been in Bill's position I, or if we'd had been in Bill's position, we'd have done the same as well. And said, bloody hell. Glasgow are doing all this Intercity work. If they were. We should be doing that. So erm t they're fighting to survive, we're fighting to survive. And, and they're not gonna, they're not gonna behave as er real gentlemen Roger. I can promise you. They're gon gonna be interested in that Oh n no. work. You can commit suicide as well if you're daft can't you? Yeah. Erm J just to put it in perspective you know. erm Hugh said that er it doesn't apply to jobs that we've already got. And At the moment we've got ninety five percent of jobs that Keith knows about. a b we've got That's right Mm. Keith doesn't know many jobs that we don't That's . know about a and therefore it's only things that start to creep in this year. So th the chances are we might only be looking on investment jobs a a at a handful of projects that we might need to start competitively Mm. tendering them. And Jim's point about you know gettin using this as an opportunity to er s Er spot on. t to get it, is just right because i i in twelve months time we might have to tender for every job. And it doesn't matter whether we give him bad vibes. If that's the marketplace that we're in then we we've got two choices. Right. Either w w we start to er Yeah. learn the, the, the street credibility that you need to er We have no option but t to learn it. We've gotta to survive o or y you, you become streetwise and we've gotta become streetwise Mm. bloody quickly. or you move into procurement. O or something else. Or you retire. That's right. I, I mean There aren't many other I if you can't stand the heat, you get out the kitchen. And if that's what we what it is then we have to do it. But er I, I don't want get out the kitchen, I want to keep cooking boys . Y you, you, you're,I I'm, mm. Yeah. The problem is what you're raising a lot more issues here the undertow is unbelievable. And, and we're gonna finish them at Scarborough aren't we? They ain't gonna go away. The undertow is unbelievable We are. like We're talking round it now Hugh. like you know Yes. you can take all the graduates away. I don't want any No. Mm? Yeah. Oh yeah. I don't If you want if we do what I to do I'll tell you what It's the reality of the It's the reality of the world you don't want any my office. You don't want anybody Right. who's learning Roger what's your biggest problem at the moment? you know. Staff? Right. Mm. Get rid of the graduates. What's your problem tomorrow? Then the year after? The year after that? The year after that? Not necessarily. No. Cos get qualified staff who would actually be able Yeah. to produce I hear what you're saying. Yeah. No. If we're gonna take serious, serious action That's the problem and get to grips with the real world, then th er as well as what Jim said about the fact that we pay staff lieu time, and we pay them overtime, and Mm. and we let them, allow them to do flexitime, Yeah. we've got to look very seriou seriously about the productivity of the work that's churned out. And many of our jobs Yeah. are churned out poorly and take extra time Yeah. because we take on t very junior staff T Os and we have a Hear hear. commitment to sending them to college, so we lose one day a week for a start. Yeah. Erm we have the graduates who we're training up and they're not very good and drop us in the mire sometimes. And they've got a vast learning queue. We don't specialize people who are graduates and say, you work in the works office or the bridge office. We say well pick up a bit of experience here and a bit of experience there. Yes. And that costs us money. problem. Quite right. Yeah I mean I, I was amazed when I wrote to you and suggested that er we didn't need thirteen weeks in bridge assessment perhaps perhaps less than that. You came back and said you wanted them to have thirteen weeks. Thirteen weeks when we're paying their bloody salaries and they're earning nothing for us and really Consultant wouldn't bother with that. a consultant wouldn't send them Certainly wouldn't. on an area for six months and pay their salary. He wouldn't send them Yeah and to be fair It's this trying to have our foot in every camp and trying We're actually paying we're actually having to pay overtime Yeah. Mm. when they're doing site supervision work on areas . The problem is we don't know what type of animal we are. No. That's the problem Yeah. at the moment. We're a hybrid. change again in April. We are. An absolute . To be fair if, if we, if we were on our own we, I would agree with you, we would not be doing that. No. We couldn't afford to. No. We couldn't. You can undercut jobs providing staff are r a a a you know all pulling hundred and twenty five percent of the time. Mm. But you can't if they're not. we're digressing again. You've gotta, you've gotta be hardworking. Am I, am I not right in saying That's right. that all new graduates ? No. No. You're bloody not. ? All the graduates go on our books. We get a consideration from the business unit for some of the graduates that they have selected for us. So you're gonna put other people on the th that have not been brought through Through. central selection, we will end up having to Yeah. Yeah. to pay their . Or we just get credited, you're charging that, if you've got a, an H Q graduate if you call him that on a job he's still charged that job. Mm. Oh yes. I mean it's just that the S A U profits go up a bit because you get a credit from er That's right. Yeah. But the job doesn't benef that job doesn't benefit. B but you know we do a lot of things No that job doesn't benefit so it, if, if he's we do a lot of things don't get paid. Yes. Still. You keep sending me comments er things like, will you pass comments on this standard platform design? Yes. Got sod all to do with me as a S A U. Fair comment. I went yesterday, to tell everybody about access requirements and spent all day And you get nothing for it. plus expenses and we get nothing for it. The only thing you do get and this is what the consultant We build up expertise. But No. No. . You make contacts. Oh yeah. Yeah. You make contacts you impress people That's right. on, on, on your expertise. And that's a market Or not. Or, or, or not. Or not. Yeah.. The op no but the opportunity is there. For you It is. to impress people. It is. Let them know what expertise you have and there's when they have a problem, they come, is that the one by Mr ? Yeah. It's lovely. It's very good. Mm. And Roger? Mm. You read that. What it says about training and graduate training and so on. Yeah. He doesn't do it. No. It does n't. Th that, that message is entirely opposite from what you would But you see Ah! . Yeah. Yeah. I know but you see We digress. We do Mm. digress, but I think i i it's important that I, I'm, I'm, I'm beginning to wonder now what our real stance is. Cos we've gone through a whole sort of full circle about taking a stance that's very aggressive in terms of saying if we i i if we tender for something we're gonna hit the client with V Os and this that and the other. And yet in the past Not really. if I'd had said I wanna, I wanna claim this from client you would have said come on, that's a bad marketing exercise. Back off. Yes. Do it for free. Now we can't have both. You can't have your cake and eat it. You can't. You couldn't. But, but Terry what you've gotta rec So which are we, which are we going for? What you've gotta recognize, well you may go for both. What you've gotta recognize is that the circumstances have changed. Yeah. Well I, I'm aware of that. We Mm. we started off m o o o or part of this conversation, Trevor and I said, Keith wants to continue working with us. Yeah. How do we make sure of that Right. is what we Our clients, But the clients who deal with us, like the way we work. Yeah. Yeah. Right? But That is because of the way we've behaved over the last two years. Yeah. Now circumstance cultivated that. the cir that's right. Mm. But, but let's take the, take the finance bit. You said w we pare things down to a minimum price. Yeah. And then if they come along and change anything we hit, we hit them for the, the extras. Not in an aggressive way. Right. But I'm talking, I In a professional way. but when I spoke about safety and getting the money back from the safety training that they now want that they didn't want in the first place you said, no, we should do that That's right. in-house. Well it Yeah. seems to me you've got, you, you've got er two different approaches there completely. Yes. I have. One's saying we do it for free and another one's saying it is n't. A and I I'm not, not really quite sure what we're trying to a get. Well I think we need to d we need to discuss that at Scarborough possibly. Yeah. Scarborough's the place for it. I mean our ob my objective is quite Yeah. straightforward and that is to stay in business. But mine's jus It's about it's about mine isn't just that. Mine's to actually make some sort of profit. W we we've drifted now onto all the issues that we'll Yeah. be talking at Scarborough in a non-structured way without Jane's help. I, I honestly believe that we should back off and, and get on Right. with the . Back off. Next thing is safety training for project engineers was covered and we've discussed that previously. Safety validation of contractors was another item th that they give you a briefing of the meeting Sorry. Right. Beg your pardon. Right. Okay? They raised the question of safety validation of contractors erm but I don't think there's anything that we need to involve ourselves in that. We talked about terms and conditions of engagement and as I said previously they are looking for us to provide them with spreads of expenditure of fees and, and Trevor's looking into that. Just before you go over there was one point on the safety of contractors. Regional Railways have requested that they see copies of our contractors' performance reports. Ones we do internally. Right. Perhaps we should send them to the client on all Yeah. er all clients on all jobs. If we do them. Yeah. Perhaps the clients should vet them himself. I don't see how he can. Again CONDAM regulations once again here. I know I keep harking on it but the CON What is this condom? the CONDAM regulations actually say the client must ensure that he employs a safety conscious contractor. A a a and he can delegate that responsibility t to us. Gentlemen what are we? What are we in business for? We're in business to Provide the client provide these people with a service. Yeah. Yeah. That's what I see I mean He's doing that by employing us. all the . If the better service and more comprehensive service we can provide,th the better chance we have of getting repeat orders. Okay? But the more it costs us. And the more it costs us. Yeah. And therefore the less And meanwhile competitive we become. Not necessarily. W n no. But these I don't think it's as simple as that Terry I think It isn't as simple as that. You're quite right. you have to, you have to be able to bend and flex as, as the organization Mm. Move on. requires. Liabilities we've talked about. And that's it. Good. But I, I thought it was a very useful meeting with er with, with Keith . It flagged up certain erm items for concern, better that we know than not, not know them. Management procedures project coordinator. I'd like, this is one I think that Jim raised. There's a letter from Jim. I would like with your agreement Jim t to take that off the agenda and for you Dennis and I to discuss that out of this meeting Yeah. I've got a time in your diary for that. Good. And then if need be we'll raise it at the next meeting. Right. Okay. I think there's value in us talking about it quietly. Yes. Can I substitute one in there very briefly? Sure. Er it is another procedure o or set of procedures. I'm having a devil of a job with the correspondence system that the management procedures demand. Being that management procedures are supposed to be best practice, Mhm. I would put it on record that B E S has never managed this correspondence system, in the way that the management procedures now dictate. If you look through it, if my adding up is correct, it requires us to keep something in the order of sixteen separate files on one project. Bloody hell. It's a lot. If you look if you look through it I think you'll get Yeah. It's a lot. sixteen separate files on one project Ridiculous. Mm. and quite frankly, we talk about being competitive and what have you. It's a farce. My clerk just cannot keep control of this. And the engineers are saying, this is absolutely ludicrous. For the vast majority of our schemes which are very small. Why can't we just have them in a loose-leaf binder with dividers in, and let the engineer decide how to hold documentation together? Now I can tell you that Swindon are B S five seven five O certificated. They have a filing system, and the procedure for it which is about two pages is highly efficient, and the engineers think it's the best thing since sliced bread. And I have that I've been down to see it. Mm. Plus everything's in one file just divided? Ours Mm. to be honest You can never find what you want. wrong file I asked I asked my clerk t to get me file something and he says, Which one? Which bit do you want? I know that's Mm. what I keep getting. I said just give me the file on it. Which bit? The green folder? The red one? The pink one? . Yellow one. Oh I said Blue one. I can't do with all this. Mm. Right. Now I raised that because I think it is a very very serious threat to our efficiency, in project engineering. Jim y you know the philosophy. If we can improve let's hom let's home in on it and let's improve it. Well perhaps it's worthy of discussion with Dennis when we're talking about project What project at the same meeting. coordinators. Yes. I support that a hundred percent. Good. Thanks Jim. Right. That was it. Any other business? Could I raise two items of any other business? One is the visit from the I the Irish Railways certainly made a profit for Intercity out of it with We don't want to mention it on here. Do we? Mm? Well Trainload Freight haven't got any facilities to fill depots have they? No. They buy in ? So why? So why shouldn't they Its batteries have fallen out, Nola. Its batteries. No. Those are spare batteries. Oh right. It's still going. What are you talking about? I've just started it again. It was finished in the middle Oh well. of the tape. Well I don't care. Mm. Right. That is it from me. Are we on to any other business? That was my, they were my any other businesses. Oh right. Finance nice report you want there. Well I thought we were going to any other business first. Mm. Oh. I thought we were running out of time. Well Yeah. We are Why was Monday cancelled? The dinner? Oh. Oh. Because David was ill. Because David is ill. Oh. Sorry about that. I forgot to Didn't you tell them? No. We were just told it was cancelled. I told Amanda Oh Miss . why. I think said she didn't know. Tt. Right. Well you know what women are like. Now you know. Okay. probably. Right. I've got two or three small items under any other business if Well yes. Right. Er delegated authorities. Got Hugh's delegated authorities. Are you happy for the whole of your group to? Yes. I am indeed. Open this on trust. Erm Open this on trust . Let it be. Is this the right? Can I have a copy? I is this the right way to disseminate this information? Yeah. Why not. within the procedure. Ah! Well every time I send something out writes to me on bloody DOPACS saying this is not the way to disseminate this information. always have a document. Yes. He should. . Right. Oh. Good. Anyway We won't read through now I don't think we need to go through it. I think if, if there are any No. it it doesn't ev I mean the, the, the one main item is th th that shocked us all is that is only Chris can approve the use of consultants, in any shape or form. More fool that that that. Excluding I now understand training Technical. consultants. I didn't think it applied to technical consultants. Oh yes. Is it? So if we're going to employ a consultant Yes. t er to do a check on a bridge Yes. Yes. Chris . It has to go to Chris ? Yeah. Absolutely. Even Yeah. even though you put that on your form A and the Board have signed it. But Chris doesn't see the form A. No. The Board do. He's the managing director of it. Is he? Well l that's what it says and, and really it should only be erm a a a rubber stamping exercise. I mean I cannot believe that the guy . Sorry. wants to sort of maintain that sort of level on, on Mm. all lev all expenditure. Anyway. So that's that one. Anyway just summarize that would you? Chris is the only person who can approve what? It's the use of consultants. Er the use of consultants. Excluding for training purposes. Now what if it's Re we're doing a job for Regional Railways? You need to Can we say to Regional Railways you know? Ah! W w we will kn with a bit of luck procurement of consultants, we will get the, we will make a recommendation to the, to the client that, that these consultants are engaged on his behalf. Right. And we will certify payments to these consultants when they've done the work. But the actual letter appointing the consultant and the actual payment of the fee will be just like any other contractor. And we can do it that way. That's the, the sensible way to do it. So it's only really Intercity jobs that need go to Chris ? Er yes. Providing that the, providing that the client's agent is prepared to stand up Yeah. and, and own the job. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. We don't have We just treat them like a con a another contractor. Right. Erm I, I will look through that and I will see if there's anything within those delegated authorities that I can actually delegate downwards to your good selves. Would you note on the front sheet, The date. th th that I have stamped the date that I received it, Mm. and I have put a question er a ring and a question mark round the fact that I hope that the auditor isn't gonna try and isn pretend that we had that for all last year. Mm. Cos the Mm. auditor is due to come in actually very soon. Absolutely. So I mean I I've stamped that in, in a very positive way so that it's er Good. Thank you for that Trev. you know? Yeah. Right. It is is my intention to have a look through that and see if I can delegate any of those down to your good selves. Right? Okay? It's in that stuff they Erm tied up in those blue books. Yes. Can I claim my control. my disturbance allowance please? Micromail. Micromail. From today we are w better equipped to get out onto B R's mainframe computer systems,a and the problems that we've had in the past with regards to Micromail ha should disappear. If it's decided, any of us or all of us o or our reports, are gonna use Micromail can you let me know? And we will set up mailboxes for you as individuals. What so we're leaving it to people to decide whether they want to use it? No. No. No. No. No. No. saying? . I'm saying erm, if I give you all a mailbox number immediately and then you never actually log in to your computers to see whether or not you've got any mail that's arrived, then there's absolutely no point in doing that is there? But if you don't give them a mailbox, you won't encourage other people to send them mail I quite agree. thereby, thereby compelling people to use the . But i if our clients say, oh I want to send Roger something so what's his mailbox number? Whacks it in, and sends it off, erm a a and Rog never logs in as himself, He'll never get his mail. he'll never know th th th th that one of his clients has sent him something. So if if Roger's letters on a morning, you don't know what's inside. That's right. So it's a, it's a, it's a point of principle are we gonna be, are we gonna use electronic mail? I think there should be focal points. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah your clients You see in fact Mm. er yeah this is the beauty of a fax you know, whether you're there or not it gets to you. Yeah. And somebody deals with it if you're not there. But Micromail and you can only access it yourself Mm. I can't see much more flexible than that. Much more flexible than that. Yeah. I mean the beautiful thing about Micromail is y you can get a a a a message up, you can immediately copy it to three other people, or thirty other people if you wish, erm and you can reply to it instantly without having to, you know y you just type a message in and press the button, and it's gone. It's replied. It's very very efficient. Oh I used it Yes. It is. for years. Very Yeah. very efficient system. But you've got to actually have a wish Needs to be . to use it you see. The only reason most people don't use it is cos they don't like to get on a keyboard of a computer. That's the one thing that stops them using it. It's very very efficient. Well I, I, I have no comment I mean I just don't underst I, I don't know enough about it to, even to be Right. W able to comment on how it should be operated. Would we like a teach, would we like er a teaching arranging, for this meeting? I think it's absolutely essential that Mhm. the staff are advised what this Right. facility provides them with. Right. Cos it's used nationally all our Okay. clients are, are tapped into it, and we should be able to communicate with them at the press of a button. Absolutely. Right. Let let's have, let's have a . Yes please. Yes. At the next meeting a, a twenty minutes, yes. Client reports and things like that you know you, I mean it's Oh yes. We can send them we can s we can send any file we want via Micromail. We could we could send all the clients' reports via Micromail, once the project coordinator has agreed that he's happy with what's on there. Good. Right. Agreed. We'll be briefed at the next meeting. Isn't it a brave new world? Sorry. Erm overtime. I've had er an informal erm er package through from Paul , er just citing two of erm our staff on the recent erm thirteen week management overtime erm I bet I can guess the names. guess one. Have a guess. ? Yes. Yeah. ? Oh what a hero he is. Well mis Who? Alwyn , Alwyn has shoved Eric . has shoved Mr into second place. In thirteen weeks Alwyn has earned seven thousand one hundred pounds worth of overtime. Eh? How does he do ? W what he do? Well I mean even Mr in his heyday has never quite Right. Now. Come on. achieved that. Yeah. So what have we got to do about it? Th th th well i it's not, it's not whether or not Is it justified? i i it gotta be justified because Roger and Terry have signed it all off. I mean I can understand that In f in fact I, I know, I know what Terry's problems have been over the past Yeah. But the the point ten weeks the point that's, that, that er Paul's making is but we need to get a grip on it. he says,in the case of Ian the number of occasions where Ian has worked two hours on a Friday morning and then he's worked Friday Saturday as overtime. And Alwyn has been paid to stay at home on Friday Probably and then he's worked Friday Saturday . Er Oh. Yeah. Yeah. Just say that again. Alwyn has what? He's, he's been paid to stay at home on a Friday Rest day. Yeah. Rest day. Yeah. And then he's worked Friday Saturday as overtime. Yeah. To keep within the rules. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I right. He then says,if there's a continuous agr er commitment for weekend working, should we apply the er extra weekend duty payment rather than excess overtime? Question mark . Yeah. That is a good question for Ian actually. And for our, for our R E set up. Our proposed R E set up. I mean we shouldn't be looking at now we should be looking forward at our new organization. Yes. And we are. Yeah. And tha that's all this is Yeah. I think that's a very good idea. just a, are we happy to see massive, it's surprising once people are on E D P one weekend in three or whatever or equivalent, their overtime a a a and their you know they actually Yeah. decide whether or not they really need to be on that site for fourteen hours or can they do what they need to do in four? Aye but working every weekend can i w i if, if it is every weekend is a lot of money, on E D P. Is it? Mhm. Oh yes. I it's about one weekend in three's about seven percent isn't it? Yeah. So if it's every weekend it'll be about twenty twenty Every weekend it's about twenty percent. odd percent. It's a lot of money. Mind you not everybody has to work every weekend do they? Yeah. Ian does. No he does n't. H h he won't when he's working for Terry. No. It is fair to s it is fa Really? More every day? it is fair to say that in the case of er in the case of Alwyn, erm because of the special circumstances where we didn't actually use a clerk of works ever on that job Yeah. Terry I, I, I know the situation. so we staffed it but wi but we, but having said that we've gone to Adwick and we've set off, almost on the same rules. And, and my, that act those forms stayed on my desk for maybe two weeks whilst I were plotting and thinking what the hell I could do about Mm. changing. But of course you can't it's after the event. The record Yeah. . But Y y you don't do any overtime until somebody's signed it off and authorized it. Well it's all, it's all signed off and authorized. Ah. But on Adwick we have decided, and I've told John or he's been informed, that because we've got a supervisor there I don't want him starting at six in the morning. Good. He'll finish at six at night. Brilliant. He's gonna work a standard day. So it does need managing you're quite right, and I'm, I was gobsmacked at how many hours were on . Right. Right. Well Th the decision you were putting to us though Trevor, was whether we put somebody on extra duty payment? That was just a, an option that Paul had suggested might from York? avoid some of these large amounts of overtime. Yeah. It's up to Terry and Rog are to decide how he's got to safely man the job. Well Terry, Terry's got more, more experience of, of this than anybody else around this table. And it'll be Terry's responsibility in future. So So really that's wh what do you feel about E D P? Is, is the question I'd have to talk about wi I could talk to Roger about it and see what Yeah. er the scenario is. As far as one off Terry you can't go rushing back till we've got the new Yeah. erm the new R E outside parties Set up leg set up. And then Think about when we But, but really we, I mean we shouldn't be running up massive bills like this We shouldn't. cos that sort of overtime i th this You've gotta be w if it's on weekends, there is virtually no contribution towards the overheads at all Okay. But if, if from any of that if Ian isn't What you've also gotta doing it, somebody else will have Yeah. to. What, what you've also to bear in mind is You know erm If, if that's the case Roger that's fine. That's right. Provided that it If it's genuine overtime I mean there is Well erm Don't worry, we go through Ian's bloody time,tha that time sheet was a week being gone through, being checked. Mm. Yeah. Because the DOPAC Right. I got a DOPACS report saying he'd worked thirteen shifts out of fourteen. It turned out not be right er because he was Yeah. booking it in as book twice stage you see. And that DOPACS for some reason was er Clocking that up as a work day. Right. Mm. I think the only danger of looking at E D P , is that if we're doing for the guys in the office, then what do we do with the supervisors? Yeah. Our supervisors It may be that they should be cos they are the ones that work more weekends than anybody. Yeah. W we've just highlighted two technical staff there, but what if we included supervisors? What would the picture Mm. be? Ah yeah. You know our work But is at weekends isn't it? I agree. I, I don I think the only action that comes out of that is Yeah. that Terry and Needs controlling. have a look at that and keep it within . We do control it but it is There isn't an alternative to the supervisors. There isn't an E D P equivalent unless you start Mm. making supervisors Management staff. a different grade Management staff. That's right. Okay. Anyway. So I'm, I'm gonna leave it to between Shall I just throw these away then or do you want them to have a second look at or, yeah, I'll bin them. Right. Simon? That's that. I'll leave it between Roger Er and Terry to sort . Right. Th the good housekeeping i is the only other Consultation. thing. Consultation date has been picked for three weeks on Tuesday. And that'll be just as powerful a tool as the Scarborough conference. Right. Cos that's what's brassed people off. We've been mentioning this good housekeeping Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. What's the date? It's, it's the Tuesday we get back from Put it in your diary down. erm Scarborough. Tuesday after. Yes. That one's team brief in . Twenty fifth of May. Yeah. Twenty fifth. Yeah. Er the document will be with the staff reps and I will circulate yourselves, and your staff, erm by the end of the next week. Hopefully I'll get you an early copy, not with the J Ds and everything but certainly with the left hand side, and the right hand side of the document and the final version of the document with charts What date was it? erm Twenty fifth of May. mid next week and then give you a day or so to look at it. And I will be sending it out by next Friday. So the staff reps will have it for at least a fortnight. Good. Okay? The job descriptions have all finally been evaluated. and as he's quality only run on perhaps another nine months or a year or whatever, and then revert to the same job description as John John . So perhaps you would like to break that to Dennis. Before it becomes common knowledge on, on the documentation. Who who's representing management at this consultation? The management staff reps. Which are ? No. The management team. Oh. There's er Trevor and I. Right. Unless you wish to No. I just I mean most of it wanna know what, what involvement there was. Yeah. M most of it is just formalizing what we're doing and formalizing the changes in the establishment Yeah. that was brought about by, er the early retirement Th there'll be a personnel How is it? person there to take minutes? Oh yes. Ho ? The figures that went forward for, for Dennis' job presumably the same as last time? No. Because if you remember last time Dennis had three subsections working for him and he's got the equivalent of two now Oh right. yeah. Right. . Okay. and the quality team was an M S two and an M S one, and it's now only an And it's now, yeah. M S two. Fine. So there's been shrinking. Terry I've Good. I've already primed, I've already told Dennis quietly. Yeah. Right. Okay. And there's no problem There's no problems as far as he's concerned. I mean i it'll be a, if Dennis was serious about wanting to go, he'll be er he'll be able to say, look, I'm redundant. Yeah. I'm displaced. Yeah. Buggers us up promotion-wise in future again but Well i it was never on that he was gonna keep the quality leg after he'd gone. No. Well once he'd lost that he would have lost the No. No. Yeah. grade anyhow. Like the other people lost the grade. So er that really means that i a all being well we've sorted that. What I would like to try and get personnel's agreement to, if a if at all possible, is that we don't do this nonsense of having to close list our staff to jobs that we know we're gonna put them into. I would like to try and sort that out on the day apart from the That's sloppy . I think there's only one post, and it's in Jim's office, where there are too many M S twos existing for the future M S two posts that, that, that we've got on the document. Apart from that scenario where those people will have to apply for their jobs, and the T Os across the board Mm. where Roger's getting rid of more T O posts than we've actually got sitting Right. tenants in them. I think that the rest of the situation should be more or less a straight across thing, and I'm gonna see if we can get Paul Just slot, slot them in Well a and not have to posts. Well we can identify the P M T posts anyway so there'll be Right. no problem there. It's the management staff Yeah. posts. We would want to put the people across into what er are actually their existing jobs. I would go along with that. Er that is not as simple as you say though No. Trevor No. I have Colin as an M S three. Of course y but, but he is an M S three So what? and under the close listing jobs, Roger He'll be at M S three. he will be at an M S three. M S three. And he will be post. He will be close listed into an M S three post. But we said, ah. but there is not, he cannot occupy an M S three design post with Roger the new He's doing it now. he's carrying he is in the post at the moment do with outside parties. No. No. He isn't. He isn't. He is doing a job in your office as an assistant section engineer at the moment. Dealing with outside party work. No. No. No. No. He's Well that's what he's doing cos that's all he can do. His job description, his job description . Right. His job description is the same as everybody else's. If at the Well let's not play on words. Well okay then. No. No. If at the end of the day once we have gone through the goo the good housekeena keeping exercise and he has been put into an M S three post that you think he is not capable of, then you've got two options. You have got to train that person which you could have been doing for years and for years. haven't. You Now come off it. Come off I think Roger's Roger has, we might not like it but Roger may well have a point cos he doesn't ha Yeah I, I he doesn't have to put Colin in an M S three just because you've got a vacancy. Hang on. I'm c look let me just give him the two options. The two options are, one you train somebody so that you give them additional training so they Yeah. can do the job. Or two you take the erm the managerial action which is available for you,t to take him out of there and put him into a different post, because he's not capable of doing . Or the yes. A managerial action could be that he transfers with the outside party services. You can't cos . You can't because they haven't got another job. There isn't a job in there. There is no three in there. There is no three in there. There is no three in there. No but there you have, you'll have three vacancies won't you? No. You've, you've no M S three As what? vacancies? I mean what you're basically saying As what? is that I don't want him so You've got two M S sh so I'll hand over to, to . No. I'm saying he might be more With the R E the R E doing that job set up Mm? The R E set up. It is a problem You're gonna have to put Ian It's a big problem. you're gonna have to put but I Ian in one of those two jobs. One of those three jobs aren't you? The R E set up. The R E set up. The R E's outside Am I? party job. Yeah. And then you're gonna be faced with, with two people at the moment, erm that do the running around on the outside party Nick and Steve . Yeah. I, I think what we But I'm not I think the process we should go through is a . You wanna be careful there because I'm not tak I'm not necessarily taking those. Mm. The process we will go through Well that we will slot, we'll Yeah. That will slot people in and we've, we I I mean i if we look at the Colin situation. Colin is, is currently occupying an M S three job within your office. And, and within the rules of the game we can do nothing other than Put him into that put him into that post. Now acknowledging what you say Rog, if you consider he can't do that work, then as the next phase what we're gonna have to do, you and I, is to see what action we can take. Me with an overview of the organization, to see if there is anywhere else we can put him, and off, off the top I can't think of anywhere. Erm but then we, we w we need to start thinking about how we get the best out of Colin. Cos that's what it's all about isn't it? well we've been trying to think how we could get the best out of Colin for the past four bloody years. Remember Colin was put into that job er because he was displaced, he didn't want to go into the job. Erm we know where there is a very good place Absolutely. that Colin could go and do a good job Send him there. and he would maybe be a damn sight happier than he will be if he stays behind. Yeah. And it's still an Intercity Have done. post. What did he say? spoken to him. What did he say? Tt. He said they'd been through the a the er interview process and they've chosen who they want. But it's still at your, if it was going to another sector I could understand that attitude, but when it is being, it's still within Intercity, I just cannot understand that that is the attitude we take. Terry er sorry Roger if, if I were interviewing for posts, I would appoint, and you know full well I would, the people that I thought were best for that job. And I would make that judgement and I would appoint it. That is precisely what Kim and Kevin have done. I have tried to er persuade him that, that Colin would be good for that job. End of story as I see it. Mm. And he is now our responsibility, and we're gonna have to er determine what the right management action is. He's a chartered engineer. I mean he's no nugget he's er And he will be carrying out the dut he will be carrying out the duties Well not of a subsection leader Roger but of a project, senior project engineer. Senior project engineer. Yeah. Well y Which means he might have to do some design. Yes. Yeah. Yes. And wh why not? We send him on a B S five four double O course. That's right. We can train him and And I, I personally believe that, I personally believe that Colin has got ability if we exploit it. It's very easy to say that Yes. It is. and we we have tried and tried but you cannot light the spark. . Can I suggest we er Perhaps he might he better off in the works office? Yeah well he comes to work from nine till five I suggest you turn the tape recorder off. and that's it. Ca can we move on? Terry Because w we're actually stuck on one person Yeah. Yeah. We we are. We're getting The principle I would like to put forward is that if we are gonna place is that Trevor on behalf of you comes round and talks to each of us to make sure that what yo what you're gonna propose Yeah. fits with our feelings. Splendid idea. Yeah. I mean we we're gonna have to, we're gonna have to be very careful with the M S twos anyway, because of these two twos down in the Mm. works office. Perhaps Well yeah. No good thinking he's sending of in fact No. I I'm sure that the twos we're gonna have to close list I think you will. Anyway erm talk it through with us. Okay. We, we can make an assumption that we're gonna get the consultation through as, as we've as we've intended. and the others. Yeah. If there are any changes they will be very marginal. I mean there will Right. be on grades for a start because our jobs evaluated. Mm. And I'm not sure where any changes would be. Well you've got some flexibility on the Well let's go through the philosophy. P and T grades but that's all. Yeah. You can, you can, you can shadow list or whatever it's called But that's, that's about all. So we can make an assumption and I think we should do that before twenty fifth of May. Yeah. We should go through a process o of this group of slotting, in accordance with the rules, and get that Yeah. slotting done so we have a template there that we can deal with on the twenty fifth. Right. When we've got the left and right hand side of the document which Joan's well on with at the moment, we can pencil in very lightly the jobs Pencil yeah that we see going straight across We'll we'll agree them with you and then we'll, we'll Yeah. use that as a template. Right. I'll come round each of you and, and do that. Okay. Good. Cos yours is gonna be complicated . Right. Any, any more any other businesses? Because I would like deal with the erm Erm I've I have a question. Is, is i I thought we were Okay. doing erm for some unknown reason rule reviewing. Oh. That's this afternoon. Not on the agenda. Not on the Well I had to do that agenda when Hugh wasn't here, so I'll go and get Andrew and I'll just check with Steve that erm He's gonna rule review us. he is rule reviewing Good. us this afternoon. But I've already been done so Any other business? Good. Thanks . That was quite a useful move. The main thing is that th the financial commentary. What I would like to do with the financi financial commentary, is because it is, is an historic document, I would like to pull out a few plums which we can team brief. And What about us finding out what the is like? It is. We're only doing it for and . may well be. We'll put half a mind on it. I, I'm yeah. I haven't seen it. Alright? Haven't you seen it? Until just now. passed down Yes. this morning? Er bu late last night. I mean I think we sho we could have done with some time to look at it really. unless Andrew's dropped some enormous goolies, I can't see that the plums that I've picked out should be We all that significant. I ca sorry. I can see something in here you've got that disappoints me having spoken to Andrew about it. Er and that's that he's pulled out here the income generated by various departments. And for once thank goodness he's split works and bridges by taking the Yeah. supervision out which is what I asked him to do. But what I did say, and he said he could do it, was to divide up, to compare us, that he could divide up the profitability and I'm not sure that, you know i in terms of how many staff did Rog have? How many staff did I have? And what does that equate to? In terms of income? Cos that's the relevant part is how much each individual is, is erm It's got a profitability on, on page three. Page three. Let me have a look. As I say I've only just started Mm. flicking through it. Erm there's the profit and loss. Return I don't quite unders can somebody tell me what each indiv I mean basically I would have expected to see the money earned divided by the, the number of staff telling me how much Right. You're talking about contribution to the fee earning then? Rather than Yes. That's been dropped. So what did? What's, what's number three of profitability mean? Number three. You've got a return on expenditure for your function of eight point nine percent. In other words tha that is your profit. Eight point nine percent and that's er that's No. That's that's my contribution towards the total of the group isn't it? No. It's a return on expenditure. If your If I've read it right. if your overall costs, which are on the sheet before that Terry Right. I'm with you. Yeah. are one million and ninety nine pounds, it costs to run your organization. Divided by the staff. Ah. So that is it then. Alright? That's it. Good. So he's got it there and then what he's done then, is he's deducted the non fee earning element of the organization. Pro-rata'd that through the Mm. functions and come up with a revised profit and loss. Okay? I don't see how the supervisor can make a loss. Do you? Yeah. Well it's, it's, it's Trevor's organization isn't it that's being I'm non long long time you know. charged off against each other 's . But all their time's chargeable. that time. All their time's chargeable for No. No. No. They they'll have to take a share Well don't ask me. of the overheads Yeah. They charge to overheads if they weren't doing a job. But they don't,co could be Roger. Yeah. But, or you have the tendency It could be to put two people on a job when one would have done. Well yeah. It co You know. er it could be that either we're not recovering costs on, on that basis or costs on the bill like perhaps Ah. that the er charge that we're charging the client isn't high enough don't we? Well it isn't. Mm. Yeah. hours To cover the overheads in that er appointment. Yeah. That's the problem. I mean that's, that's the way I read it. So w we're not charging out for them at a high enough rate. Marginally . Mm. For who sorry? supervisors. The problem with work supervisors is I think we hinted before, if you think about it, is the fact that our plans and what have you all go forward assuming it's so many hours. It doesn't take in the fact that you're actually paying them double time for overtime. Right. And, and one and a half times. Yeah. And they're Mm. working overtime So the more overtime you work as I've said before the less efficient we become. In terms of profitability. What's happened here? Right. There was a co Cockup? cockup with the one of the formulas. Thank you. Tt ruins. Ruins. So which bit's the ? So whi which are these replacing Andrew? Er they're page three Page four Page three. a second. Mm. Rip that off there Which part of page three Mm. has been changed then? All of page All of it. So w so completely new. Oh. Hang on. No it isn't. It's . Oh God. Ah. different? What's different? Or shall I just put on the? There's only the bottom It's only There's only the bottom. There's only the bottom. The table table table at the bottom. It's just the table. So So it's that, it's, it's only that table there? And as far as I'm concerned it doesn't make any significant difference gone down. to my analysis. So is that there on page three? . Option erm sorry, point three. On page three yeah. Right. It's just those numbers then isn't it? It's just those numbers. Yeah. So those two pages Again. Erm want replacing. I'm happy about that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then in the I'm not Here's an extra sheet. These are extra sheets. Right. Good. That one there. Yeah. I know. be I can't be dealing with all Oh good. these bloody changes. Pro capita fee earning bids. Yes . Al 's staff. Hugh 's staff. Right. So there's an extra sheet three B. Mm. First of all can I say, it's a good report, Yeah. and thank you Andrew. Well done. Erm the next question I ask is, how do we make staff aware of the content? Well we discussed that early on, we're gonna actually issue this as part of our annual report. And it's cos I think it's important that Mm. staff do understand er I, I mean I wonder how many of our staff understand how much detail we look at and have available? Probably very few. Yeah. And I think it's important that they, they should know the, the amount of information that is available, and how I think, how well we do monitor er our financial performance. Cos i it is important. Yeah. It's also Good. important our staff are educated in their effect on this. Yes. Cos I don't think, well I've got to speak for B E S. I have a number of staff who just do not see, that all of this is generated by them. Yes cos it all comes out of DOPACS without DOPACS you haven't got any of this. Every single thing on here comes out of that Mm. report they make on the Yeah. income side. So if they balls it up we get false Yeah. figures . If the turn around documents are wrong Yeah. But how do we get that across? Well I think that has to be said. I think that ought to be said to staff. Right. I mean I'm gonna suggest When when this is . that t th that that w we team brief certain aspects of this today. Mm. Erm Yeah. and I'm gonna suggest that you take that along with you and you say, look, this is what you get, er whenever we want it. This is the end of year report. Erm the first thing I'm,I I would like t t to draw out is that at the end of the year we made a profit of a hundred sixty thousand pounds. A hundred and ninety. Where does it say that? ? A hundred and ninety. A hundred and ninety thousand Where does it say that? ? That is, it was in er It's at the bottom of page . Bottom of page three it is. Bottom of page t new page three? Yeah. A hundred and ninety thousand pounds. Thank you for that er Andrew. Okay? So well done lads. That's pretty good in a, in a year that has been fairly tough. That's the good news. The next point I would raise, and this is er by looking at item three on page one, is the income split by business and profit centre The forty five for Regional Railways which, yeah. Mm. And I would like to draw out of there the fact that eighteen percent of our work is for Intercity, forty five percent is for Regional Railways Sorry Jim. and sixteen percent for Network South East. If you add those two up they come to about sixty one percent nearly sixty two percent. Those two areas of work, two thirds of our work, I see as being areas of risk. Because Croydon are anxious to maintain, or to take all the work, for Network Mm. South East. Glasgow and Birmingham are anxious to take all the work for Regional Railways. The way that we continue, our clients, the ones that we contract with, are anxious to continue working with us. That is because we've given them good service over the past three years. And it's important for our staff to be aware of that, and to realize that we have gotta continue to give, those two clients I believe in particular, the best possible service we can provide. We're going down the Swanee if we don't. Mm. So that, that was message number two. We did get some rates from Glasgow didn't we? Mm. Yeah Yes. we got, theirs were higher than ours. Theirs were higher than ours. Yeah? Yeah. Good. Erm in item four I didn't understand item four. Mm. This is money that we've lost. These are the balls-ups. Right. These are the jobs that we've transferred money or given money back. Okay. Yeah. I, I don't intend to spend any time on that at all we went through it last time No it's just, it's just an opportunity Oh. Green Bottom being debited to bridge? Come on. It's joint. Fair enough. Roger what does it matter? does it matter? As a group I mean the other thing that surprised me a bit, I, I spoke to Ken yesterday and said, how did you receive? How was the fifty thousand pound credit received for Green Bottom? And he said, oh yes, he said, Roger told me about that, he said, I didn't even know we were getting that. surprised me. He's a project coordinator. Right. Fine. I mean Ro R Roger advised the client's agent in the normal way I mean If somebody's accepted the, the fifty thousand that we passed Good. back It wou anyway thank you for that. I would. It was just that i it was almost in passing he said, well yeah Roger told me about that. And it wasn't just a sort of formal thing or anything, that was the impression I got. I may be wrong. Mm. I told him about it. Yes. Formally? But er, mm? Formally? Only in conversa only verbally, I haven't written to him and told him. Oh. Because I asked you and remember I rang you up about a week, a week ago and said, what, which number have you credited? And you said you didn't know yet. That's right. But er I, I erm Andrew sent off er through I B I S because we were Yeah. quite close to the, the, the sort of er gates coming down on us, fifty thousand pounds. And I told y I said to y er before he did that I said, would it cause a client a problem if we gave them back some money? Right. And you said, no No. they'll be delighted. And I said, would you clear that with him then and tell him that it's coming? Erm a as you're the project coordinator and I'll, I'll get it into the system? Right. Our objective , the objective of giving a fifty thousand pounds refund on Green Bottom, was twofold. One was to erm reimburse them for er errors that we feel that er, we could have avoided. But the second one was to actually make it a bit of bloody exercise in marketing. Erm and I think that a well I don't think, it's essential that we send Regional Railways a letter, which says that we have decided to refund this, erm to assist them in er financially.? Yeah. This will be, don't you see I'm in the process of answering a letter to Regional Railways, on the whole finances of er Leeds North Western, and I needed to know which number you'd actually Mm. credited. Mm. Right. Because there are various er numbers that I know well John'll Rog and their letter if you do that will be done. for me? Good. Good lad. Fine. No problem. Erm i in actual fact the,th the decision to do that, inadvertently, is, is an absolute masterstroke, because I know that er Ken is in real problems with fees for the electrification people. And he's gon they are overspending by something like one point one million. So any contributions from Oh we'll have it back then. any contribution from us Drop in the ocean . er is, is very handsomely received. So it was a good move that. Erm good. Next thing I got on was erm There's two on that page by the way, two B is the item I mentioned about graduates isn't it? Full cost of the graduate trainees Yeah. increases has increased the in expenditure Yes because previous to this year, erm the R C E has been picking up a proportion of their costs. So the next message that I was going to or the next thing I was concerned about really, was on page three, Yeah. item two, profitability. Er I think tha that we need to look at why there is such a significant difference in profitability, between the bridge and P Way, who are making what would appear to be a reasonable amount, er and the other four sections. And all, all I'm looking for there are the reasons for those figures being so much different from bridge and P Way. And Some of it by clever accounting on the part of Andrew Mm. by carrying some of the profit forward from last year to this year. Yes I mean th that's a point tha that's erm put on there. If we, if we put the profit carried forward er that we'd earned this year on erm the Upminster Signal thing, two hundred and forty nine thousand wasn't it? Yes. Which is another three percent isn't it? Which took it Mm. up to nearly seven point nine Mm. for B E S. We can look at the Co ? What, what I'm looking for i i are two things really. One is the reasons why there's such a difference,a and two is do we need to take any action? And really Andrew what I want you and Trevor, what I want you and Andrew to do is, is to give me answers to that. Most of this I would think, could be I I don't want thinks I want facts. No. Oh yeah. Right? I want to know what the difference is, and I want to know whether we need to take action or what? Yeah. Okay? So if you could do that for the next meeting I'd be grateful. Do you want an analysis of the, of the Yeah. profit ? Why there's a difference. That's right. Now the next thing erm, on the same page was, having taken away the,th th the non fee earning elements it actually pushed, and I'm looking at your revised sheet now Yes. it pushed B E S work supervisors and P Q S into a, a loss making situation, admittedly only marginally. Erm and, and that wants to be part of that exercise, really, of, of looking at the reasons a a and telling us whether we need to take any action. Well she's picked it up Five thousand loss on a works supervisor. And . Yes. It means the rates are wrong for works supervisors doesn't it? No. It means the rates are virtually right doesn't it? What we've charged, what we've charged the supervisors off with, is the full time C O three plus er pager, self-owned transport Mm. me and er Well you got one Well the question then is do we need to be charging work supervisors and out a to our clients at a higher rate in future? That's what I'm saying. Yes. Well Because of the overtime scenario. Make some money. It's a part that even Roger's been complaining to me Ah that the supervisor rate is far too high a a and that's one of the reasons But we're losing money on it. Losing money on it. Yeah. How can it be too high? Well we are losing we're breaking even on it. We're not It says we're losing money there. The group as a whole You co you could turn round and say, alright they didn't have a full time C O three they had But supervisor Right. rate is,i i is that salary Doesn't matter. divided by sixteen hundred times two point six? No. No. No. It's been reduced. Because of you. Yeah. Right. I I'll buy that. One thousand pounds on, what's the total expenditure? No. Five thousand pounds. Five thousand. Five thousand pounds on five hundred Thousand. thousand Is it? One percent. B E S has more or less broken even as well as you see. Th this Yeah. But really why? I mean we, we should be But I mean we all are. targeting at making a modest profit. Yeah. We're targeted at making a modest Yeah. profit for the group. Group. Right? The modest That's right. profit for the group is a hundred and ninety thousand pounds. Which is superb. Jus just about Right. right. Okay. If we, if we had targeted making a profit of say five hundred and sixty five thousand pounds just for instance Right. everybody would have made A sound argument. a reasonable profit but some would have made more than others. When you're looking at an,a a a an average profit for the group erm you I'll tell you what it's a sound argument for the time being but it's not a sound argument if we're involved in a management buy out. Aye but you've gotta Ah yes. you've gotta look at Ah y y alternatives. You gotta decide whether or not one service allows Yeah. you to provide another one or not. embarrassing in future. You've gotta look at your rates there's a lot of things you've gotta You see if you'd tagged, if you'd added the work supervisor costs into Roger's cost centre there would have been no worries. You wouldn't have even noticed that they were making th they were only just breaking even. And also the works supervisor, they've added nearly twenty eight thousand pounds to the organization. They've made a contribution towards the costs, and if, if we hadn't got the supervisors then you would have all made a proportion Mm less of that profit, because that twenty eight thousand pounds would have had to have been found by somebody else. I, I must be er ? Yeah but the net isn b the net cost is five less, five thousand lost not twenty eight in. No. No. No. No. You're five out. If you took the work supervisors out out the group all together Yes. you would be twenty eight thousand pounds less. because you still have the same organization. You'd still have the quality manager the safety engineer and Hugh and Nola to pay. twenty one percent And i they are making a positive contribution of twenty eight thousand pounds towards those overheads Right. Gents I, I don't think it's worth spending that much time on that. I, I mean I, I wanted to raise that. I'm reasonably convinced Mm. well I am convinced by Andrew's explanation erm I would like to say in terms of when we look at the staff costs against budget, and we came in at only eleven thousand pounds less, er I think that is a erm that we, we, we can congratulate our business manager, on the good control that's been exercised over the past year. Is that reasonable? There was a th Jiggery-pokery? . More luck than good I think so because I don't know where we got what with the amount of to-ing and fro-ing with agency staff and vacancies er that we've got erm And the graduates initially were only putting in about a hundred and thirty three thousand and they came out as four and a half. Right. Oh well I take back what I said then. Please take it back. Because that is bound to be a volatile part of the business. Can I? I'm, I'm not an accountant or an economist No. or anything like that . But by God, you've got a lot of money. Yeah. But, bloody wish we had. But one thing that is very relevant which, which you've gotta think about is that, we all thought Operation Quickspend was great news didn't we? Yes. It's bad news isn't it? We did. It's absolutely the worst type of business we ought to be Hear hear. doing. I'll buy that. Because it involves staff in overtime Yeah. Which to get the job done which we cannot recover. And it meant that jobs you'd already got planned So that's were thrown into chaos Yeah. anyway But But think it's good business when it's really bad news. Yeah. I bad news Terry but it's work. It's bad news, it's bad news on a time basis. Yeah. It's good news if we do it on a fixed fee and say, we have had to enhance some of our rates Correct. Mm. to cover certain bits and Yeah. pieces. Correct. But we Yeah. But it's a good marketing exercise the fact that you do it. It is and in terms of Yeah. profitability You can turn round and say Get lost. it's destroyed the figures. no use going to York they can't . Yeah but the the funny thing was that if we hadn't of done Quickspend, you'd have been looking at figures that showed a lot more profitability. Yeah. Oh . Yes. Er? You would. No. I think It would because the overtime the same profit. If you're charging off er an M S two on a twenty four pound an hour It's the supervisors that are the problem. The supervisors when they work double time Yeah. contribute something like about fifty P an hour towards the overheads. That's all. It is a positive contribution though a and, and their standard their standard year,the their standard year But their expenses you . does ah ri yes. There's the expenses. There's all their expenses . But their standard year does erm make the normal Yeah. contribution Anyway towards the overheads. It's not quite the bonanza we think it Do we need? is when you're doing a Quickspend. You think No. great! You know loads of work. money in but in actual fact it's, it's going out faster than it's coming in. No i Thanks for pointing that out Terry No. I i i it's not. But i it's But Well you have raised a point and that is that No. the over the next years We just spent seven thousand quid on Alwyn that's non-recoverable because of Quickspend. Te the important message that you're, you've raised and it is a very important one, is that over the next years, I mean we, we will have to change the way that we charge for Yeah. that service. Yeah. I mean at the moment we can't. There's no benefit to us. All we would do is end up making a bigger profit Mm. which, which we would just have Do you think? to put into limbo. Sorry. Andrew didn't think I was right there. He's not. You, you No. you, you sh you shook you head when I said Alwyn had made a loss. No. Yes. He would have earned more income on the seven thousand pounds. He would because some of it is only time and a third No. That seven thousand was only the overtime payment. Yes. He was getting paid standard time anyway and the hours going forward on DOPACS seven thousand for site supervision would only be straightforward hours. Yes. But if, if, if Alwyn makes his normal contribution during his thirty six and a half hour week Two point six. then if we're charging him out at roughly two point one, which I think we are something like that with our discount He's already covered his overheads. he's covered his overheads. If we pay him at time and three quarters which is the most we can pay him, we're still making point six of a er on top of that. The contribution that he actually earns is . I can't believe you're telling me the truth because that would mean if everybody worked overtime on that basis, we'd all still making a profit. Yes. much though. Can't work. You don't make very much but you make a bit. It can't be true cos As a percentage Have a look It's close. it ca I mean that just can't be true. Alright. Right. Next thing. Can I raise one final point on this? And that is I think the costs Mm. the on-costs er to B E S, and it's pro-rata to the others, of fifty six thousand pounds for services largely at the business planning manager. I would like to know what I get for that. Right. Well That's equivalent to two members of staff. I w I was coming, I was coming almost to that Jim. Do you mind if I just No. raise a, a very fundamental point? And this is i if I take it t to sheet ten, which is the staff numbers statement. Is this with Irish? No? No. Staff numbers statement erm and, and we look at the right hand column, you will find that we have a hundred and thirty nine fee earning people, and fifty eight support. Which works out as a percentage, that twenty nine percent of our staff the moment are support staff. I believe that is too high. So do I. Some are trainees actually do maybe I've classed the fee earning staff which are on the areas, actually maybe some aren't actually non fee earners. The twenty three trainees. Right. Can I? Cos what I w I mean it's jus t I don't Oh yes. You've got the you've got all the twenty three in there a and They'll be three quarters of those are fee earning at any one time. Right. Whi ? Well I would like those numbers t to be adjusted. I'll tell you what I was gonna do er I was gonna point out two things. One is that twenty nine percent is too high and you've explained that isn't, that is an artificial figure. And if it's an artificial figure then we should readjust the figures to Mm. to show the realism of the situation. I was gonna compare that with the er th th the, the numbers under your heading of actual, where we have an establishment of two hundred and forty eight. Right? No. Cos if Yes. Ah yeah. Two hundred and forty eight. Mhm. Now twenty nine as a proportion of two hundred and forty eight, works out as er somewhere around about ten percent. Right? Mhm. That's twenty nine percent Oh shit! Sorry. Fifty eight of two hundred and forty eight. If it's still, it's twenty five percent isn't it? Yeah. It's still high. Right. There is . Yes. Right. That's always the case. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So we've come the premise. Erm twenty nine percent is too high. What is the actual percentage of support compared to fee earning? That is the next question. And then the final question is, what is what should our target percentage be? And then the next question is, what do we prep How do we? What do we do about it? what services that we incur at the moment, are we prepared to give up? What do we do about it? That's right. Because I take it that that support, those non, those support non fee earning staff are, me and Nola,er the clerical staff in P Way, works, B E S bridges almost the whole of erm The whole of my organization. of, of, of Trevor's organization, Q And, and, and And Q And Quality and erm Yeah. the clerical staff in the Quantity Surveyors. Over to you Jim. Sorry. I just I wanted to bring that out because I do feel that twenty nine percent is, is too high. Er an and I No. I have noted what Andrew's said about the graduates, and that we are actually getting some fee earning Mm. from them. Well look at, look at, look at that my organization bought for twenty six, twenty seven staff, fifty four thousand pounds. Mm. Now two thousand pounds per member of staff I, I feel that it's a very very high figure. Considering we're paying for personnel on top of it and, and all the other things like telephones and accommodation. I asked the question, what am I getting for two thousand pounds a head? Does that two? Is that two thousand pounds s purely from business planning management? Well well the majority of, of it is. Yes. I mean Or is it from your own clerical section? No. No. No. Over and above the fact that he has three clerks, Right. he h is to, having to pick up on a per capita basis of fee earners, which is how Andrew has distributed these costs. Mm. He's having to pick up the equivalent of two thousand pounds per fee earner. To enjoy having you and Nola, Trudy and Dennis. No and Peter. Peter and my organization. Now Jim's arguing perhaps That it's too high. that it's too high. Well it's equivalent, it's equivalent I don't disagree. to two to three staff. It's almost I could take on board another two to three clerks, and I could say, could I do what that overhead currently does for me? Right. With an extra two to three people? Now tha that's just very crude putting it . But you couldn't. You couldn't do the DOPACS could you? You co you co Cos the I Ts support er I think what is more interesting Why couldn't I do the DOPACS? Safety. Why can't I do appointment contracts? I've argued this for long enough. Yes I can. Not, not, not, not . Yes I want to or Can I make the point Yeah. gotta emphasize Jim's Yeah. I don't know the answers but I'm gonna emphasize the point now. Jim did say if I looked at mine, and I only have just looked at it er if I've read the fig if I've read the figures right and I you pay a lot more than . haven't got many more staff only about twenty four. Mm. Yeah. Would you pay? I pay seventy seven thousand pounds. Mm. Which is an hell of a lot of money compared to your Gents I lot. I, I, I think Pardon? staff. Yeah. And thirty two staff when I'm paying seventy Well Rog Roger seven thousand quid. Well all the same proportions aren't they? We're Yes. paying the same for it. Again. Can I suggest that what we need to do about this Yeah. is we've i highlighted a problem, and I think it is a genuine problem, probably the biggest problem that we have to address at the moment. Erm and I Mm. I think we should, we should set a target, an initial target, that we wish to hi to hit. And a as a crude thing I was gonna suggest erm two course of action. One is Andrew goes away now and readjusts these figures,t to put the graduates, some of the graduates into the fee earning er column. Come up with a revised percentage. That's not gonna affect the point that Jim Jim's talking about It is. poun no he's not. Jim's talking about pounds. Jim's talking about the fact th th th the salaries of the graduates don't come into that. The gr the, the salaries of the graduates have been shared out among the people who have earned fees from them while they've been there. Individually. I made a thirty four thousand pound profit at the end of March, and then Trevor gave me a bill for fifty six thousand Which demolished the whole lot and more. for his services. Now the point is, another point to note is I had Mm. no idea that charge was coming on board. Well that's not good enough. Way through Ah. the financial year. I didn't Now Well that's not good enough. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. That's not fair. I did n't. We when we have, when we have done, I mean tha that's isn't a a charge to you. You won't actually have to pay it out. All we've actually done is to say, right if we've got these overheads, I mean it was always shown as another lump of money in the bottom. Business and planning manager, minus so much or in brackets or whatever. What we decided to do, because I thought that's what you'd been pressing for, was to show that as the equivalent affect of, okay, you think you're making these profits but you're actually enjoying services that you're not paying for. About period ten and correct me if I'm wrong Andrew I was told it would be about a thousand, roughly a thousand pounds per fee earning employee. It's over two thousand pounds per fee earning employee. Well then Andrew gave you Now what the wrong figure. Well what I'm saying is, yeah and I mean we're all learning by this. If you're gonna run a business, you need to know what charges are coming on board you so you can adjust your rates so you Mm. can go for more work But, but we and this sort of thing. But, but we are adjusting our rates and going for more work on the basis of a group, Yes. and not on the basis of individual offices. Right. But I think what's , what Oh no, no, no, no. Hey may be of relevance wait a minute. If I'm accountable Yeah. for the performance of B E S which I am group. Yeah. rightly so I've gotta have authority to run it. And that means I've gotta have the information upon which to run it. You could. That could be If I've got a gap in the workload I can go and Mm. fill a gap. But I think I, I think what I'd like to You know. know Hugh, to try to help the point I'd like to know what the staff do in Trevor's organization. If that isn't a rude question. not on. This is, I, I'm not looking for a . You see I have some Oh why not? It's er No. No. Trevor. No. Wh wh when we're looking at Alright then. when we're looking at cost, cost and what have you. You know what can be done elsewhere and how we can best utilize existing staff, it may well be as somebody has said, that I mean we've got Rachel there, just to pick on one post, where you're, cos it's one I happen to know what's she, what's she supposed to be doing. Or some of what she's supposed to be doing Mm. is to be honest she's of little benefit to my organization. She organizes training Mhm. but Jeremy could do that. One of my other clerks could actually do that. Or we could take the work off Jeremy Or, or, yes, I mean wh what you could ac what you, what you, you've gotta be careful what you're We could centralize training again. actually saying is that perhaps you don't need Well I don't know what the, I don't know what the three clerks Absolutely. in each of the design functions. Yes. And two clerks is, which is what Quite. Norman manages with, might more be the order of the day. Wh what I would like to I agree. suggest we do,beca because it is a very valid point I've only got two supervisors. and, and it's one that I think is, it is a priority one for addressing, I think we should ask Trevor er and An and Andrew,t to draw up if you like details of the whole of the costs of the overheads within this organization. I mean we know wha we know what Trevor's is a Trevor's is transparent. It's three hundred and twenty two thousand pounds a year. Mm. Er what I Yeah but what? What are we actually getting for that? Right. Wh what I was gonna su fifty thousand I seriously think Hugh coming back to my point, I seriously don't know what those staff do. Yeah. I I know what some of them do Let me finish. I can't assess I was I was gonna suggest that Trevor an an and Andrew draw up Do you know what yours do? Yes. Shh. Yes. Trevor and Andrew draw up a comprehensive list of what the overall overhead is for this organization, in terms of people and expenses and so on. That we then analyze that, that, that, that report indicates what people do, and we analyze, if you like, where we can investigate possible reductions. Alternative ways of doing it. Because I mean if we add all these together gents, I mean I pi I homed in on the number, on, on the people, because if you look at our budgets, staff costs are something like ninety percent of our budget Mm. make up. Yeah. Which means that, that twenty nine percent isn't far off representing the overhead charge on this organization. I know. And I, and I said my premise was, if that's the case, it's too bloody high. And my initial target then would be to say, look, what would we have to do to reduce that twenty nine percent to twenty percent? Would it be get rid of one of Roger's clerks? Get rid of Rachel? Get rid of me? Get rid of Nola? But you know what, what would we want to do You have to ask the questions to bring that down? don't you? If you don't ask the question the charges will Now that just go up. that is what I employ a business manager to do. I mean maybe the money, a lot of, is it, is anything to do with the, not the staff costs, but in actual fact the C A D equipment we've bought? No it's additional . No it's not. No. This is pure staff. It's got nothing to do with that. This is Yeah. this is purely staff costs. Purely staff costs. Because there's er So c Well I would suggest that is the action that we take. Thank you for raising it but I think we should now get Trevor to er draw up er a report on, on, on what the make-up of the overheads on this organization is. Erm what we get for the money, and erm where there are possibilities for us to consider reducing that overhead. Mm. And we might not like what we see. But we might on the other hand. And it might be like . And be pretty sure we're not as efficient as we sh as we should be and I'm not just talking about I mean apart from costs our own offices. the administration I think the drive next year there ought to be a theme. Sorry ca can we just let this ? Part of the cost cos we divide the charge of the into our organization on a staff number basis for admin charges, typing services, Mhm. we get a share of the typing services, or the, the print unit . Mhm. Our organization doesn't actually use it. Don't use it. Yeah. So what we're doing is we then send them this, why don't we pass it out to the other piece of the group? Mhm. This is really their share back again. But that admin charge it would ge get charged from Intercity East Coast. If we weren't there, the plan print room would still cost the same amount of money. It wouldn't I see. cost us because Yeah. So effectively we're paying, whilst we never use the typing pool or the plan print room, we're paying a proportion of those costs on a per capita basis That's it. and then passing those back to you. And the typists. Yes. Well look. Let us, let us see what it is I could manage that Mm. l let's get it transparent. Let's get it on Put it on the table. Yeah. the table, and see what the build up of th of the ov overall overhead on this organization is, and whether there are areas that we could er th that we could change. I mean we could rejig things and charge sort of sixty or seventy percent of Rachel's time against the graduates and then charge that back off It doesn't . against the people that use the graduates. But, but you're not reducing the overhead on the organization. No you're not you're ju you're just moving it around a a and just makes it more acceptable And that's not the object of the exercise. to Jim and less acceptable Yeah. to Roger and Terry. I've had to turn half of one of my clerks over to fee earning work. But I did it deliberately because the Mm. I didn't have enough work for three clerks. Absolutely. I But I don't, but I can't manage Mm. with just two. That's the problem. When you've small numbers you get into difficulties of Yeah? I'll give you the five later. The overall problem area was possibly introducing the buyer's guide. Really? Possibly and sometimes the C C Q. Yeah. I think it w it can get a little bit over elaborated and I think that may be well fear of the C C Q or fear of the buyer's guide but it, it shouldn't cause any problems in the real world and I think the more you do then you'll realize that er they're not gonna say oh my goodness me stop, leave now, I must speak to an independent financial adviser. yeah what's one of them erm and the C C Q is a structured notepad are you happy just to take down one or two details, will that be okay? Mm. And just end of subject, move on. And if they wanna look at it then let them, it's not the end of the world. Cos some people do want to examine what they're gonna, but the vast majority just sit back and ignore it. So it shouldn't be that much of a problem but I do recommend erm this weekend, amongst the many other things, to look at the C C Q, or at some time before you go out in the big wide world and do it for real, to look at the C C Q and pull it apart so you know what each box is actually for. I know you have done a C C Q on yourself and we've looked at each page in detail but I think until you actually do it yourself and maybe write little prompts to let you know what's on the next page so you can signpost it most effectively to move round the C C Q as opposed to you dri er as opposed to it driving you, you can drive it, but that should be done in the fullness of time but I do recommend you do it before you actually do your first full appointment cos it might pay you. Right if there are no further questions then on step one we're now gonna move on to, surprise surprise, step two. And what is step two then er Bill? Explore their needs. Yeah, exploration of needs. And what do we mean by exploration of needs then Barry? Sorry. What do we mean by the exploration of needs then? I'm so I'm sorry I didn't realize you'd started. Erm asking questions o generally open questions, maybe sometimes closed questions Yeah. just to get erm th the customer's attitude to things and erm What's the purpose of erm what is the real purpose of exploring someone's needs? You're right Distur in what you're saying. disturbance? Yeah, disturbance, yeah. So we then find you can get them to do something about it. And yes you ask and open probe, but follow up with secondary and tertiary open probes, what they mean if you broke your back and couldn't pay the bills, how would you suffer, what would, what would be the problems if, god forbid, you did die last night, what would you want your family to have how much do you want them to have, when do you want them to have it what would they go without if they didn't have it okay so they start building mental pictures rather than saying okay you need hundred thousand pounds worth of life assurance, because that's a fact Mm. and we sell to emotions as opposed to just hard factual information. So we explore, we probe and you can probe in a variety of different ways but what are the three probes we have that you, you come across? Getting back to the successful sales course day. probes. Summary Yes, summary statements. Okay and what's the purpose of a summary statement? the questionnaire. Yeah. Definitely yeah because there what does that tell the customer? You're listening to You're listening. You are listening to what they told you and you got the, the right picture, you know the right facts and the right details and the right emotions so you can go back and cover the right plan of attack so you can sell them products they actually want and not what you think they because this has happened time and time again and yes they do need more life cover or they do need a PHI policy or a savings plan. Erm and people will take on board different methods of being probed, some will respond to audio probes, some will re respond to some visual stimulation er conceptualize er ideas you know the ones we looked at last week like the old PEGGY symbols and erm the cheque book, PHI and life assurance, the ten percent rule and there is one another which we can look at, another mnemonic called er erm some of you may have come across it before, others may not and is hey so Mr Prospect if you hadn't made an adequate retirement plan, what financial problems do you think you or family could have? And see what he comes back with. What affect will that have upon you or your family if you made inadequate erm pension provision? Have we got notes on this er I've got a handout for this one,What would you and your family have to give up in retirement if you'd made inadequate provision? Could you really survive on twenty four pounds a week or whatever the benefits would be. And finally how do you feel about that? And if his his response is well what do you mean, you're a bit worried about it, how worried are you? Who's come across that before? T S B? Mhm. Yeah cos that's where I got it from. Ha! Well the other thing you put on the end of that is after saying how do you feel about that, how would your wife feel about that. Oh yes, yeah. You pitch it at don't you? Yeah. Give yourself Mrs, Mrs Prospect how do you feel about having pounds pounds a week, you know, you know the kids are off your hand pounds a week would pay your , would just cover your er your food bill. Yeah?for life insurance, savings er any, any erm investment product we have to offer or based on and around that because they're all open probes and you're gaining his thoughts and feelings. Mm. So try it this afternoon and see how you get on. So if we've er if we've explored the needs satisfactorily there may be more than one need there may be a need for life insurance, pension planning, some form of PHI, maybe they want to save for their future or their investments. So what should come next? Priority. Yes, summarizing and prioritizing. Who does that prioritizing? The customer. The client. The client. Yeah let them do it, we've covered a variety of different areas investments, life assurance, protection etcetera on a scale of one to se one to seven which is the most important, one being that the er your number one priority, and get them to prioritize it. So they're telling you what their needs are, how concerned they are about it and what they wanna do about it because they're more inclined to take your advice when they see you second time round, because telling isn't selling. Let them tell you, let them paint pictures. So yes we prioritize and summarize the needs. So again there's some restatement, so just to clarify things we're looking at primarily life insurance for yourself and your wife savings plan for your daughter PHI say in six months' time and pension planning is the, the least of your, your main concerns today, would that be the case yeah I guess so. So you check your understanding and you've listened to what the guy has said. So you're signposting what you wanna do and where you wanna go. So you've prioritized and summarized, what do we need to tell them that we're gonna do now? Take it away back to the office. Yeah, that's the whole thing, we've gathered all the information now, we may've been there an hour, hour an a half, maybe two hours depending upon the appointment so you go back to the office and work on a plan of attack. Now at this juncture here you wouldn't actually say what products you're gonna do, cos you're not gonna go back and say well I'm thinking of er two hundred thousand pounds of convertible term assurance and we're looking personal pension plan, but you'll tell the guy you're gonna go back to the branch, we've got a variety of different things sir and what I wanna do is to go back to the branch and work on one or two ideas for you and then present them to you at some time in the future. Yeah? So the guy knows what you're gonna do, and more importantly you're gonna come back and see him again. Cos why is that important? So he doesn't Sorry? To, to remove the pressure from him there. Yeah, okay, you're not perceived as a wonder going in there and closing a sale while you're er objection, make sure Yes. that you're gonna get er they realize you're gonna come back to do the sale Exactly yeah. and if there's an objection you wanna know about it now. Cos there's no point in coming back and doing a second appointment and just go through the motions cos that will lead to what? If the guy doesn't know why you're coming back Further objections. More objections. Do you think he might be committed to do anything there and then? No. Not a in hell. Present your recommendations to him and he'll say well yeah I'd like to think about it and you go off then oh fair enough then so you go back to the branch and the second becomes a third Mm. and the third might become a fourth, the fourth unlikely to become a fifth and you think what a waste of time that was. Okay. Don't waste your time. Forty appointments a week is hard work, you wanna make sure they're productive appointments. So we've arranged a second appointment he knows we're gonna come back what could, what should we be asking for at this point? Referrals. Er referrals, yeah, okay. Now if you've planted a seed or if you haven't planted a seed then are we in a strong enough position there to ask about the people we dis we discussed on completion of the er first appointment? No. Not at all are we? Why is that? You've come to the end of your appointment and then suddenly to just say okay tell me about these people Yeah. he's not gonna want to know. Hang on a second, you know, what's this all about then. So what we can do at this point here, Mr Prospect if you cast your mind back to when we first met, tell me how you feel, how, how do you, how, how do you feel today has gone now what should he say? Fine thanks, very, very beneficial, yeah. Something er i it's unlikely to be a negative response so if you hopefully it's gonna be some form of positive response I'm glad you should say that because if you cast your mind back to when we first talked I did say that if you were happy, and only if you're happy, half a dozen introductions. Now we spoke about Bob Smith or whoever, tell me what's his telephone number because I'd like to meet the guy and see what he says. One of two things happen he'll ei he'll either say yeah, okay and give you the number or what might happen? He might say he'd like to speak to the guy first. Yeah the chances are he may throw an objection up Yeah. and say well hang on a second, and what do you do with objections? Apack Apack them, knowledge, probe, answer and confirm. No problem Mr Prospect, I'm glad you feel that way however I am seeing you in a fortnight's time, have a chat with him between then and now and when I see you next week I'll ta or whenever the time'll be, I'll take his telephone number from you then. Would that be okay and how's he gonna feel? Yeah the pressure's off him straight away. Yeah. Okay but can you see the if you don't bring it up a a at the first part with plan to proceed, you can't do it here. If you can't do it here you can't do it at the beginning of the second appointment, if you can't do it there then the chances are you'll do it right at the end and if you haven't made the sale I guarantee you won't ask. Guarantee it. So at the end of each appointment you want a result and a result is either the business or introductions, hopefully both so I hang on the importance again. So we've planted a seed and we either get introductions there and then or we've paved the way to the pick them up at the second appointment. Now when do you feel the lion share of objections are gonna come? Really? When do you feel he's gonna bollock the most and say hang on Oh er what the business or Yeah when do you feel that the majority of objections are gonna come out, or the strongest objections. the point of sale. Yeah, really, yeah. The second appointment when you've done your, you've gone through the presentation, you've done your benefit statements and you say right is this the policy starts today, that's when the lion share of objections are gonna come out. You're always gonna have objections, I think you've seen so far, throughout the whole sales process, some are more awkward than others but you got by them but the majority will come when you ask for the business, or go to ask for the business. So what would you feel is the sort of objections you might get out there? Er I wanna think about it. Can I leave it for now. I wanna think about it? Absolutely. Yeah? I wanna talk to somebody else. Speak to somebody else, yeah. Can't afford it. Yeah. Changed my mind. Er different quote, I need a quote. Can I speak to someone else. Oh right I thought that meant you know wife or father-in-law. No no it could be another adviser, it could be their accountant, solicitor somebody else if I may. Hasn't got the authority. Might need his wife there to do it, oh right. Sorry? He could ask why do I need it. Yeah. Erm okay, do I need it or changed mind. I didn't realize you wanted to sign up the business today. Erm Well the thing is if, if, if at that meeting you don't say what is gonna happen at the second meeting Yeah, erm don't do it now, don't do it now. Can I say Yes fine, mm. Any more? I think those are I think quite realistic objections that you are going to come across big battle with them. So how can we preempt this happening? You tell him exactly what's gonna happen at the next meeting and providing what you present meets his needs and is within his budget, will he be proceeding? Yeah. Get the budget. Get the budget. So who has heard of ANNA before? Yeah. Okay which, in a nutshell, says exactly which one could . So what does the first A of ANNA stand for then? Authority. Authority. Yeah, okay. Justified at our next meeting is there anyone else you need to consult before making the decision to proceed now at this point, it's coming to the end of the first appointment, you're pretty sure you're on your way so the pressure is off, he's feeling fairly relaxed and hopefully he's enjoyed the whole sale process with you, so what should his re his response be? He should say well no I can't think of anybody. Well if it does then you need to know it now, why do you need to know now. Get them there. Get them there, preempt it, okay, because you want to save your time. You don't wanna go and present to somebody when he says well I've from Dunbar or Standard Life. So what objection does that remove from this little er Speak to someone else. Speak to someone else. Get rid of that one there, yeah. Anyone else? Anything else rather? Sorry? No? Okay. What's the first N? Needs. Needs. Needs. Yeah. Mr Client are you happy we've addressed all your needs during the discussions today. Now the chances are he's gonna say well yeah I thought so because the, the size of the C C Q makes them identify just about everything so far but in case we have missed something. What objections does needs get rid of? What does that need remove from these objections? Do I need it. Do I need it. Yeah, any more? It should get away, it should get rid of think about it I'd've thought. Mm. Okay, okay we'll look at that. The second N? Now. At our next meeting Mr Client I shall not only be making recommendations but I will be explaining how each recommended product works for you in great detail. recommendations happy with them, is there any reason why we'll not be able to proceed without delay. What does that get rid of? Erm think about it. Ask to think about it. Can't afford it. Don't do it now. Don't do it now. Don't do it now, yeah. Change your mind. Change your mind I suppose, yeah, mhm. It might get rid of that as well, it might do. And the last A? Amount. Okay. And finally Mr Prospect, Mr Client rather, are you in agreement that the amount of money, whatever it is, which is available to implement these re those recommendations. What does that now get rid of? Can't afford it. Can't afford it. Spookily enough. Spooky eh?doo doo doo doo doo doo doo Now I don't care in what order you do ANNA, it could be NANA, AANN, NNAA I don't give a monkeys or NAAN, I don't care, so long you include it at the end of your first appointments because at the end of the day all you're doing is saving yourself a bit of time, and that's the whole purpose of ANNA to make sure that when you go back on your second appointment, this guy is committed to do something. So when your managers speak to you at the beginning of a er of your Monday morning meeting to say Gerald how much business have you got landed for next week you can say with conviction, two, two definite cases. If you don't do it, it'll be two possibly threeish because you're not too sure, you've got to go back to the second appointment and he might do it but then again he may not. So who are you fooling? Yourself. Us. You've gotta be hard on yourselves and say this is my business, I can't afford to waste time, I want to deal with people that wanna do business with me. So you want strong, effective second appointments by doing strong thorough firsts. I've got a handout for, on this one . Scribbling away like I think it should be part of the selection procedure how to do shorthand. So that is step two. The exploration ne the exploration of needs by open probes erm confirming by visual er conceptualization using PEGGY use whatever tools you have available at your armoury but don't move on until you feel the guy is either totally not committed to do something or sufficiently disturbed to do something. Again be aware you don't go completely OTT. Summarize those needs cos there may be more than one and tell him what you're gonna do, what is the plan of attack, when you're gonna see the guy again and when we do our business building up, you can take it back to erm the benefits of him introducing us to other people by keeping policy charges down and increasing bonuses whenever possible, cos it's in his benefit he introduces us to others so we don't have to advertise, or very very rarely advertise. And then very very importantly the last mnemonic ANNA cos that really is belt and braces, it's tying the whole thing up so the guy knows exactly why you're gonna come back. Yeah? Any qu any questions? Do you ken? Yes I do. Good. Right. Well now we'll now look at the second part of the er sales video as a help first and again give you an example, a flavour of how to conduct the next set of role plays. Is that loud enough for you? Yeah, great. Step two exploration of needs. This part of the selling process is directed towards finding out about your client and completing the C C Q. With all clients you must attempt to complete all relevant areas of the C C Q. This includes gathering hard facts, date of birth, marital status, dependants, hobbies and so on. Soft facts are also important as they'll help you to get to know your client better, to understand their feelings, views and aspirations in a number of areas. At the same time look for referral opportunities, for example if a group hobby has been identified then who does your client do that hobby with? And when you're about to complete the C C Q you must make it clear that the information given to you and subsequently transferred to the C C Q is in strictest confidence. You should also give your client an indication of how long the appointment is going to take. As I said before I need to take one or two notes about your current financial situation and I'd like to draw your attention to the fact that any information you give me will be treated in the strictest of confidence. Is that alright? Yes that sounds fine. But tell me how long will all this take? Oh er about an hour on average, it does depend on your circumstances. It is important that I put myself in a position to be able to give you the best possible advice. Fine. Okay, let's get started then. Er Graham Davis, is that your full name? No it's Graham Kenneth Davis. Fine, thank you. And your wife's name? Er Janet, Janet. Okay so we've looked at your current income and expenditure, what I'd like to do now is move on to the future. At what age do you hope to retire? Oh sixty five I suppose. Okay, so imagine you were sixty five years today, how much of your current income would you want? All of it? Most of my clients say that . And what arrangements have you made for that? Oh I haven't er I suppose I'm expecting the State to support me. Yes unfortunately though it's getting less likely that anyone can rely on that. If you had retired yesterday and you hadn't made proper arrangements what impact would this have on your way of life? Well erm the mortgage would be paid off and er so we would have the house and erm I guess we would receive the State pension. Yes, that would be around eighty pounds a week. And the children would be off our hands by then. Well that's true but what would you want to do? What do you mean? Well, on top of the expense of maintaining the house and the car, you may want to continue any hobbies you may have or take more holidays. You may even have grandchildren by that stage and so you'll probably want to help them. How would you afford it? I don't know. You see these are the sorts of issues we must address to ensure you can maintain your current lifestyle. Do you agree it's a concern? Mm. Can I just check, you're not currently in a pension scheme are you? No, no I'm not. And you couldn't join one? No my employer refused to consider it. He was quite adamant. Well we should also look into you contracting out of SERPS. Has that been suggested to you before? Yes but erm Once you've established your client's needs in this area of the C C Q and completed the relative parts, move on to the next. Okay so we've looked at how to ensure you have a happy retirement but what would happen to your family if you were to die before that? Well I haven't given it much thought but er if I were to die I wouldn't want my wife and family to suffer. So that's protection is important to you? Have you made a will at all? No that's er that's something else we've been meaning to do. If you had made a will who would be the major beneficiary? Er basically who would you like the money to go to if you were to die? Well my wife and family. So on your death you'd want your estate to pass on to your wife and then on her death to the children, is that correct? Yes that's about right. Had you died last night, what would they have? Well, the mortgage would be paid off and er well I do have some life insurance. Oh good. Do you know how much or what income it does provide? Er the mortgage is for fifty thousand pounds and I think my life insurance policy would pay out about forty five thousand pounds. Right. Okay so the mortgage is paid but what do you suggest your wife does with the forty five thousand pounds? Oh I guess she'd have to invest it. Well that makes sense but we can't be sure what the interest rate would be. Now er your wife and family would receive around four thousand pounds a year to live on is that what you want to happen? Well no, no that's not enough, they couldn't survive on that. What would you want them to have? Well I'm not too sure but well at least enough to pay all the bills and, and have a bit left over. Can you put a figure to that? Erm say about eight hundred pounds a month. So that works out to around ten thousand pounds a year. How important to you is it that your wife and family can have this protection. It's very important. Mm. Very important. Well now you've made me stop and think about it four thousand pounds a year is nothing. Ah but she will get something from the State won't she? Oh yes she should receive the widow's pension of around fifty six pounds a week. Is that all? I'm afraid so. So combining the State benefits with your own life insurance that still only provides around seven thousand pounds a year. How do you feel about that? It's pretty morbid stuff isn't it? Well it can be if you were to die without leaving proper protection for your family as premature death isn't just one death but three, the death of a father, the death of a husband and the death of a salary. Unfortunately I can do nothing about the first two but it is my responsibility to protect your salary so that your wife and family are looked after. So if she needs around ten thousand pounds where's the extra three thousand pounds a year gonna come from? I don't know. I guess that's where you come in. Yeah! Oscar material! appointment all areas should have been discussed. At the end of this process you must establish how important each area is to your client. We've discussed several areas today, the effects of retiring from work on little or no income, the consequences of your premature death on the lifestyle of your family, the result of ill health on your standard of living and providing you with a custom built savings plan. Is there anything else you'd like to discuss? No I think we've covered just about everything. If we were to prioritize these needs on a one to seven basis, one being the most important and seven the least, which would be the number one priority? Well I feel that er protecting my income if I were to die would be the most important thing at the moment and er possibly er making some provision for my retirement. That's probably all we would want to look at for the time being. Okay. In order that I can make my recommendations realistic, how much do you feel you can comfortably invest on a monthly basis to protect your wife and family and make provision for your retirement? Er let's say a hundred and fifty pounds a month towards a pension and er maybe fifty pounds towards life protection. Okey-doke that's fine. And you're sure you're comfortable with that amount? Yes, yes that's fine. Okay I'll put together some ideas based on the areas we've discussed today and if we can arrange a time for me to come back I can present my recommendations to you. That's fine. Again ensure that your client is happy with everything and any queries before arranging your second appointment. So when would be the best time for me to come back and present these ideas to you? Well we're going on holiday next week so it will have to be after that. Erm how about three weeks from today? Er fine, yes that's fine, yeah, about what time? This is the best time to take your client back to the introductions you mentioned earlier. Tell me have you found today's discussions to be of benefit? Yes very much so. It's amazing how much we all trust to luck and hope that it will never happen to us. Yes. If you cast your mind back to when we first spoke and how we build our business by word of mouth introductions, I'd like the opportunity of meeting one or two of your colleagues and introducing them to our service. Well er I, I'm not sure that they're really interested in insurance. Well I can appreciate that. I just want to exchange one or two ideas with them which they may find to be of benefit. Erm you mentioned your brother earlier and er Geoff from the sports and social club I'd like to give them a call, do you have the numbers? Well let me speak to my brother first but erm give Geoff a call, I know that he's looking for something. Geoff Banks, is that it? Yeah. Thank you. Yeah here we are, Geoff Banks, nine four O Aha. You should proceed to support these referrals with age, occupation, family circumstances and so on. ANNA is a mnemonic for authority, needs, now and amount and has to be introduced at the end of the first appointment. It's used to gain a firm commitment that your client will proceed with your product recommendations on the second appointment. In order to clarify my thinking Mr Davis, when you receive my recommendations at our meeting is there anyone else you would need to consult before making a decision to proceed? No I don't think so. And do you feel we've addressed all your needs today? Yes, definitely. Good. So the next time we meet, providing your happy and you understand all my recommendations, is there any reason why we couldn't proceed? No er provided I understand. And you agree that two hundred pounds a month is available and affordable to implement those recommendations? Yeah. Great, fine I think we're done. Thanks for your time. Not at all. You can then close your first appointment with some form of appropriate sociability. When dealing with step two, remember to probe and explore your client's needs, summarize and prioritize them, then get permission to proceed with your product recommendations. You can then arrange your second appointment and request any referrals, and finally ANNA. Right. There you have it, the way to conduct your second er your er step two within the first appointment. Any questions or comments? Okay. Then at this juncture here I'll now nominate what products you'll be working with and you'll have these two products throughout today and tomorrow. So Robert, Barry and Gareth you'll be doing role play number one which is linked around life assurance. Joan, Diane and Max will be on P H I which is role play number two, Bill, Roger and Vince you'll be looking at pensions and Rob you'll be just doing savings. So in groups B and C role play it'll be your nominated product, okay you won't have to do one on savings yeah? So maybe you'll end up doing er two life assurance pe two life assurance presentations or to P H I or two pensions and the benefit of that this way is that you all can see at least one presentation and one probing around a different product as opposed to the one you're working with. Is that clear everybody? Mhm. Right. So know that, if you now refer back to the, the book that I've given you this morning and if you turn to where it says okay it says stop here do not read on if you can subsequently turn over from there you'll see inverted commas first appointment skills. Excuse me I just have to rush over here for no real reason and touch something and rush back again. You can have this one . Okay the second part of first appointment skill role play, I E step two the exploit of needs is to be conducted using the appropriate page of the photocopied CC C C Q which relates to your nominated product. So for life assurance it'll be page twelve of the C C Q but it's role play number one. The P H I is role play number two, pensions is role play number three and savings is role play number four. So if you can turn to the appropriate part of your book that relates to your nominated role play. Assume that you've done all other pages of the C C Q and this is the last page to be addressed. Even these ones that you haven't done in between? Er yeah can I just read this out and I'll explain . On completion of this page firm and prioritize needs and for the purpose of the role play this is your customer's only need and explain you'll put together recommendations placed on the information given to you by your role play client. Arrange the second appointment using a simple request for referrals and end the role play utilizing the mnemonic ANNA . So we're effectively starting at this point here and going right down to the final A of ANNA and the way you can, you can, cos you're gonna step in mid way now and you assume that the appropriate sociability has set the rapport has been built and you start the role play by saying thanks very much for that, I now wanna talk about whatever your product is, yeah, and then step into role play that way? Do you get the idea? Yeah. Now then if you look, I'll just take, this applies to all of you but I'm just gonna take for example role play number one you will have some details you'll have gathered from erm the previous role play. However, having said that the information you have gathered from previous role play you now subsequently ignore because the hard facts are down here so people doing the role play number one, here's a chartered accountant who has a house wife. He is earning thirty thousand pounds with a take home pay of nineteen hundred pounds, yeah? And then you'll find, over the page there's the appropriate page of the C C Q which relates to life insurance so you can use that as your prompt to gather your sole facts, what his feelings towards life insurance is, the protection he should have, what he may have already, yeah? So the people doing life insurance should probe around that particular page of the C C Q, yeah? Is that clear to people doing the life insurance one? Yeah? Okay. Number two which is PHI again you know they're married, they have two children, again this person's a chartered accountant, however his wife does work and you'll be using, let's see okay the income protection disability accident and illness page, just the top half to probe and gain his thoughts on income protection if he were to break his back and what he or she may or may not have er already set up, yeah? Okay. and then pensions are the same again except the guy's a carpenter, a self-employed carpenter, and then finally erm there's only one of you doing er so you Robert going for the savings, you're doing savings aren't you? Yeah. Yeah okay, then you have the appropriate facts there and you can explore the bit about savings and plans for the future but you will have his attitude to er do you er is attitude to risk there? Or does that come later? No okay, so you just have the appropriate page which relates to his savings for the future. Everyone okay with what they have to do with regards to their respective role plays? Yeah on the pensions one er are we a page missing or am I just a page missing? Erm got that page. Yeah you haven't got the page that relates to pension schemes. What, what age do you want to retire and what income do you want and That sort of thing, yeah. Yeah So the actual timings are as follows you have five minutes preparation before each role play to get yourself together there's fifteen minutes role play which is recorded but there's no playbacks, we haven't got the time unfortunately. Okay so you do record the role play but you do not play it back and we have fifteen minutes of feedback. role play cycle should take around about thirty five minutes, yeah? So you do record the role play but you don't play it back. So it's vitally important now that the people that are watching really do pay attention cos you're not gonna get a second bite of the cherry. Now this will definitely test your listening skills and, I know it's getting late in the afternoon and you've had a heavy meal, but you really do have to concentrate because the feedback you give him is now, or her rather, is now vitally important, okay, cos you haven't got a second bite of the cherry. Alright? So before we break to our groups okay can I have the old step one critiques that you haven't used back, thank you, and now we have step two, same format as before write down your comments and then give the comments to No secrets. the appropriate sales person so that he and she can log it away in the manual. Is everyone clear what they have to do? Anyone not sure? Yeah because it's just I feel I'm missing a page, I've got two of the same page right, two are the same, er different social, can I just pull one of those out and use that? Yeah. You've gotta stick to the same order that I showed you this morning, yeah? Cos otherwise if you start doing it now then I might just pick up one person again and again, cos we will check as customers but we want you to take otherwise it gets very very confusing and I don't wanna miss any of you. Oh yes, thank you. Good point. Okay. Here I am saying I've Absolutely. Absolutely. So if we can break to your syndicate groups and start er the first role play cycle to get going, what, ten to four? Yeah so that'll take us, and do four role plays, that will take us two hours and twenty minutes, is that alright? Yeah. Two hours twenty minutes so we start at ten to back here at twenty past six, yeah? So do the four role plays then all come back here at twenty past six for a debrief and then we'll call it a day. Alright so if you go to your syndicate rooms now I will join you in due course. taking your stuff with you. I'm doing the PHI. I know who my customer's going to be so I mean I know Martin. Yeah. Do we take it that that's complete because if you look there I mean there's, there's nothing which we've asked earlier anyway. When you come to that particular page. Oh I see, well yeah but we've got that, you've got that From the so we're actually starting to complete that particular page. Right. And you'd have got the appropriate information Okay fine. Yeah? Yeah. And the carpenter is self-employed single? Erm yeah. Self-employed single. Okay. Well I know that you're going to come back and be my customer, I know that. Right. I'll look forward to it. I'm sure it'll be very very exciting. Are you gonna be Mr Goodwin? Yes. As, as your spouse is a housewife. Absolutely, yes, I've, I've had a sex change. Right. They're quite common these days aren't they ? Well it's true as anybody who watched er Prime Suspect last night would realize. What's that one? Prime Suspect. Oh I missed that Was it as good as one? Erm a little bit didn't it but waiting for you when you get home/ No I haven't. Well the suspect,th th the guy who committed the murder's not any of the people it was Harvey Jones from the centre cos he was involved in paedophilia. And his name kept coming up all the time didn't it, Harvey Jones? Yeah well I mean t it's probably based on real stuff because there ha there had been some very blarey results where people taken on trust and then these guys all the access and all the money coming in these vulnerable people. He was, he was the one Vincent the erm cross-dresser had actually had some operations and become nearly Vera and he had actually banged Connie on the head with an ashtray cos Connie was selling his story and sold some personal family photos Sorry I'm The, the only one that was slightly lost, there was, there was a, a, a top dog High ranking police officer. yeah. Well he had actually retired from the police force, he'd been cited and he'd been cleared, but he was actually, as it turned out later, practising paedophilia and as he realized that in fact the investigation was coming close to him, he shot himself Right yeah. and his wife, it was her second marriage, her first one had been to the doctor and he had actually examined paedophilia backed off, basically said well she didn't, she couldn't get a conviction but it was quite clear that he had the motive and he'd had the opportunity because Connie died from the fire which Harvey Jones had set cos he found out Oh we'd better hadn't we, yeah, put it back where it was. Er this is in the right place isn't it ? Yes it wasn't rewound. Hopefully. Do you want me to check or shall I ? I think it was alright, I think we stopped it in time didn't we? You can check if you want to, I don't mind. just in case. If you want to. Ah right. Better to be safe than sorry. It certainly is. Oh no this is Having a little trouble with the voice you know! Well I know I'm Which one are you doing? Life assurance. Are, are you er the most Is that one two three or four? That's erm One. Right. Are you the most senior in Brentwood? Erm in terms of what? A as a consultant? Yes I am at the moment, I, I'm the highest earner at the moment and I'm on the highest grade but I haven't been there the longest. Alright was it? She's good. I'm the second longest serving. Who's the next customer after you Maggie seeing as you changed order? Er I think, oh god it's on the desk down there. I'm trying to understand his er programme. I'd of thought. I think Steve's taken it. Yeah the next customer, I don't know whether you've got Steve It's going to be Martin. How are we looking? I can't read this programme. The light's flashing on this screen you know, You what? The word light is flashing on the screen or shall I just not worry about it? What does it say. Light. L I G H T. Light? Yeah. Oh not now that you've moved that off actually, it's only when sitting there No it seems to have come back again. switch the lights off it should be okay I mean I just don't know Just carry on. How's that? What about now? Has it gone off now,lights gone off? It certainly has. Ooh spooky. Not another spooky Probably. start on the basis of going through page twelve. Can you when you're ready. Yeah I wish I wash. Hang on a second, page twelve. That's the life It's the life insurance I don't want to put any pressure on you here but we're all using you as a role model for our Thank you very much. pressurize you I know you do. just, just so that you know that we're using you I feel, I feel very pressurized actually. as a role model, okay? I feel very pressurized. Okay? Right fine thanks, thanks for that information Mr Goodwin. What I, what I'd like to do now is, is just to go through er your existing arrangements that you have with er life assurance policies and we know that er you've got some existing cover as far as er your mortgage is concerned, erm has erm has Mrs Goodwin got any er life cover? Erm yes she has, she's got a Yeah. she's got a number of things actually, yeah. Right. Erm now obviously I, I've got details here of, of your Friends Provident policy, erm it's, it's on both your lives That's right. is that right? And it's seventy thousand pounds worth of cover Mm. started in er March eighty seven er over twenty five years so presumably that's, that's the one that er that pa that tied in with your mortgage Yeah. and at the moment I think your premium on that is erm is sixty eight pounds of a month? Yes. Okay. Erm what other policies have you? Erm I've got something with Scottish Amicable, now erm that's for ten thousand pounds. Mhm. Is that, that st is that just on your life or is that a joint con contract. That's just on me. That's just on me. And that's for ten thousand? Yes. Right. Do you know when that started? Er yeah I took it out about three years after the, the mortgage one. Mhm. So that'd be about nineteen ninety would it? Couple of years ago. Yes. Yes. Right. Some time in the summer. In the summer? Mm. Right. Erm and how, how long is that for? Do you know what the term of that contract is? Oh that pays out when I die. It's, it, it er it's a life policy is it? It's only payable on death? Yeah. Right. And how much er do you pay ? Yes. And how much a month's that one? Er let me think the er er that's twenty one pounds a month. Twenty one pounds, right. Is that under trust that policy? No. It isn't. Right. It's not signed to anybody else the other policies are signed in connection with the mortgage? No, no no just extra life cover. And, and that's purely on, on your own life ? Mhm. Right. Right have, have you got er a any other policies, you've mentioned those two, any others on your death? No not on me, no. No no. Right, what about Mrs Goodwin? Erm now she's got three po three smaller policies, erm one with the Pru Mhm. That's Do you know what that's worth? About a couple of thousand I think. That, that was sort of the initial cover was it, two thousand? Mm yes. Right. I think that's one of these ten year policies. In fact she's got three ten year policies. Three. Were th were they taken out for any specific reason? Erm well I think she felt that she needed a bit of life cover, you know, with the children and so on and so forth. Mhm. So were, were they actually And she wanted to have some,s some money coming out you know Right. at regular intervals. Okay. So are, are they, are they all identical? Are they all the same? No we've got them with three different companies, we decided to, to spread it out. Right okay, so if I can just look at the details for each of them. So we've got the Pru wh which is worth two thousand, when was that started? Ooh now that started before we took out the mortgage, about a couple of years before I think. Right so that would be about eighty five? Yeah. Right. And and that er, that was a ten year policy so that one That was ten years. comes out in ninety five. Mhm. Right. And you pa you pay them all monthly presumably do you Yeah. by standing order or direct debit. Right wh what's the premium of that one. Oh erm I've no idea but it's quite small I think, about nine or ten pound. Mhm. Then again is, is that written under trust or No. No. Are any of the policies under trust? No. No and they're all just on, on your wife's life. Mhm. Right. So that, that's the Pru one, what, what are the other two? Erm one's with C I S Mm. and that's about three thousand, three and a half thousand Mhm. she took that out in the, in the same year as we started the mortgage, she thought it was a good idea to take some extra saving. Right. So that would, that would be eighty seven wouldn't it? Aha. And that, that's ten years as well, you said Yeah. they're all ten year policies. Right so it's another monthly one, and what, what's the premium on that one? Much about the same I suppose is it, or slightly dearer? It's, yeah somewhere I think it's a pound or two more but I can't be sure. Right so that's about eleven pounds a month. Fine and, and the third one? Erm that was a friend of ours started working for Liverpool Vic and she took one out er took that out the year before we moved. Right so what, what, when would that be? That would, that would be er about eighty six was it Yeah. eighty seven. And what was that one worth? What, what was the initial value of that one? Mm it was about two and a half, three thousand. That one's two and a half. Right and again ten years, monthly premium, and that will be about the same, about ten pounds a month, something like that? Yeah, yeah round about that, maybe a pound or so more. Right. Right, none of them er written under trust. Right so really then if, if we're looking at both yourself and, and your wife, you've actually got sort of just those five policies Mhm. between you, the main one erm paying off the mortgage? Yeah. Okay, fine. Right. Erm looking at the er a a a at the figures on those erm you've got, if, if we include the m the mortgage policy, you've got about eighty thousand pounds worth of life cover Mhm. and er Mrs Goodwin's got about three, six eight, say nine thousand. Do you agree with that? Yes, roughly about that. Right. Obviously they're,th the mortgage one actually is a, is a, is a joint one so having said it's eighty thousand really as far as, as you're concerned it's ten, ten thousand pounds there for you and, and seventy thousand on a, on a joint life first death basis so Mm. if either of you were, were to die it pays out first of all. Erm loo looking at that, erm if you were to die tomorrow, hopefully you won't but if you were, what sort of figure do you think your, your er wife would like, would require in order to continue to live how she is at the moment and be able to look after and feed and keep the children? well erm the mortgage would be paid Mhm. so she wouldn't have that worry and that means of course she wouldn't be paying out the premium on the endowment policy Yeah. so she'd be about erm three four hundred pounds a month better off Yeah. and of course I'm er er I, I'm the wage earner. Yeah your, your income at the moment, yours is thirty thousand a year isn't it gross Mhm. and er take home pay you said is ni nineteen hundred pounds a month Mm. thereabouts. So I mean if y if you say that's, that's the income you've got at the moment, what, what sort of income would you believe that er that Mrs Goodwin would need if you weren't around tomorrow? Well I would probably want her not to have too much less than what she's got at the moment because Mm. erm there's still the kids to put through That's right. er education. Yeah. So really if, if you say took er took the mortgage out which is what, about three hundred pounds a month, something like that, four hundred? Yes. So you, you're really looking at er a at er an income of, minimum of, of fifteen hundred a month to er to survive on? Yeah. Okay? Right erm as a rule of thumb we, we generally sort of look and say well erm if yo if your income's thirty thousand a year, yeah, you should be looking to, to provide sort of ten, fifteen times that er as a, as a guide to the amount of life cover you need. How do you feel about that say? Yes I think er that that, yes that, that sounds about right from the point of view of what you'd get back. Right. So erm on that basis if, if, if we say that er that, that you're looking for say thirty thirty thousand a year you're looking at three hundred, four hundred and fifty thousand say four hundred thousand life cover. Mm. Can, can you see that as er as an amount that er that would be needed? Or do, do you accept that that's the amount that er that your wife would need? Yes er about erm what, what would give her about thirty thou yeah, yeah. Okay? Mm. You, you seem a bit hesitant about that. Is there anything that's worrying you about it? Yeah I think that, that that sounds a little bit too much. I think probably, bearing in mind that the, the mortgage would be paid, I think we're probably looking at something like more like three hundred thousand. Mhm. Which, and if, if, if we relate that to you, to your current salary of thirty thousand Mm. which means really all that she's gonna be left with your income for ten years doesn't it? Mm. I mean what happens at, at, at the end of the time But if she invests it she's, she's, she's going to get an income isn't she? Erm yes, I mean if er er if er I mean obviously being a chartered accountant you'll, you'll know where to invest it but I mean wh wh what sort of return would you expect er her to get on say a, a three hundred thousand investment? Well she'd probably get about erm On current rates. twenty thousand about something, something like that. Mhm. So I mean er well if, if we have three hundred thousand Mhm. and we, and we were looking at er at ten percent, my maths are good, we're looking at what three, three thousand a year? Or have I lost a nought somewhere. You've lost a nought. I've lost a nought, thirty thousand a year Mhm. yeah so that, that would, that would be er that would be ten percent. Interest rates at the moment, I think er er returns er are not ten percent are they? No this is true. So can you see why we're looking at perhaps a, a, or we ought to be considering a figure a big higher than three hundred thousand. Erm well if she's going to be er having an income of about twenty thousand a year after the mortgage is paid I think that would be sufficient. Right. Okay you, you'd be, you I think that would be su think that's about right? Yes. Okay. Now if erm we're, we're looking at that so, where are we, erm so we're, we're looking at a figure of, of shall we say three hundred thousand? Mhm. Right. Erm er apart from the mortgage are there any other outstanding bills or, or that, that you've got which you have been ? Well we, we talked about that earlier on and we haven't. Right so that's out, so we're really looking at, at purely on, on that, the mortgage that er is paid off and as you said by er by your policy so that's fine. Right so on, on that er on that basis then what we're saying is that erm you would need erm sufficient funds so that your wife would be able to have an income of s of twenty thousand pounds a year Mhm. and on that basis you believe that that would be, or do you believe that that would be adequate so that she could maintain and carry on and drive the family car and living in the house children Oh yeah I don't want her to be better off er for when I die No but, but might tempt her to the wrong thoughts. but she, you, you believe that she would er have sufficient there to survive on . I think so, yes. She's careful. Right okay. Erm right so looking at the details of those, right what we've, what we're actually saying then is that if erm you, you would want to provide that income or want to make sure that that, that income was available should you die tomorrow? Mm. Right. Erm do you believe if, if we erm oh I think we've already covered that bit right so if I put erm come up with a erm a recommendation that would provide erm an income for your wife in the event of your death erm is there any reason why we can't look at this? Within reason will you consider it? Erm well I'd like to see how much it would cost me. Mhm. I mean er And I'd like to see how it worked. Yeah. Fine. If we look at erm your, your income at the moment we're looking in the region of take home pay of, of nineteen Mhm. hundred a month erm have you any idea of what sort of budget you will be, be looking at? Oh well we're fairly heavily committed at the moment but erm well I suppose we could go up to a budget of about forty pounds a month. Mhm. Forty pounds a month. If that would provide that sort of cover. Well to be honest I don't think it's, it would be likely to. Erm I mean the if you, if you're looking at erm at er at, at, at the costs on that erm I mean do you, do you think that er er that that's a reasonable sum to, to actually put aside ea each month to provide that sort of protection or, or perhaps you ought to be thinking of, of looking at a higher figure. No I think that's a maximum. The maximum you can afford at the moment? Mm. What about er in future years? Do you think that's likely to increase? Well you said that you'd be coming back each year didn't you so, so I mean we can review it as it goes Right. cos who knows in twelve months' time how things will change. Okay right. So in other words then just to, just to summarize erm if I can come or if I can come up with er a recommendation to provide that sort of cover within that er price range erm then erm is there, is there any reason why when I do that er next time that you couldn't, come back with an appointment next week, that you couldn't er proceed? No I think that would be, that would be okay? Fine. Is, is there anybody else that you would want to con want to discuss it with? No no I make the decisions as far as finance is concerned. Right. Erm on the basis that the, that the recommendations were acceptable would you be happy to proceed next time? Yes I think that's quite possible. Fine and you're happy obviously with the budget of er forty Cut. pounds? Yeah. Have you switched it off? Good. Fine I'll sit here and recover. If Martin walks through that door next I'm Are you? Oh don't worry about it. What, you've had him before? No I've seen what he's done with the others. Well that's his job. He's very good. Thank you. Do you wanna start Ron? Er of course it's, it's, it's I think it's more longwinded than er I mean it's the first time you've fully got into it, and it's more longwinded than the fifteen minutes allows you erm but I, I thought you were doing quite well to be honest. I, I didn't see any real problems at this stage. Er I mean there was obviously er there was some things that you were er a little bit uncomfortable about but I think you coped quite well. I mean the, the good thing is that you got all the other policies out erm on what she's got, on what they've got, the family's got and the summarizing from there I, I thought you did alright. Okay. Thank you. No sting in the tail? No I, seriously I that, that was But But, yeah. No no no I, I mean you know, once, once you, you get used to it all and keep going you're er it'll be a lot er a lot better. Right. Joan? Erm I thought you did well to er get all the policy details and the exploration of needs, I thought that was done very well. Erm I was, I, I thought that, when you covered all the policies you then went through and summarized all the needs and I thought you weren't going to go back and, and er explore further so what you did is you covered all the policies and then you summarized everything and then explored all the needs and s and at one point I thought that you weren't actually going to do that but you did come back and do it, you just did it in a different way. Yeah. But erm er so I thought that was er so that was the only thing that I would actually pick up on there erm and the one thing I noticed this time, and you didn't, I mean this wasn't the case when you did erm the role play this morning, but this time, and I don't know whether it was because you had less confidence with what, with actual talking about the product, but you had very little eye contact with Maggie. Very little. And I don't know whether that was just erm a lack of confidence about the product or, or what, I don't know. I don't know. And erm then er again I didn't think that you were going to go through the authority needs and, and bit then you, you went through it very quickly but then I, I think it was for wrapping it up for the video not the way that you of usually done it That's right. so and that was all I've got to say. Okay. But very well done, very well. Bill? There was a lot of closed, closed questions, remember that, the actual page lends itself to it er well are they all identical, that type of situation. I don't know whether it was relevant or not but I would, I'd ask how did you manage to finance these policies, if you're taking one out every two or three years, you know, obviously increment in salary or something of that nature might be relevant so something that the person was conscious of, they were using their money to buy er s er savings plans. Erm it took a long time to get round to it, you know, the, the agreement to the twenty thousand. Mm. Now again, if it'd been a full interview you might have death and service benefits and things of that nature which might and then when er I tapped it was obvious that you were gonna go for ANNA and you squashed from the second appointment right to the very end in the space of the two minutes. Which was good from the point of view that you took thirteen minutes to do the first three and then two minutes to do the last, last three. But that's just the nature of the beast of, of the fact he had fifteen minutes, it's, it's only an observation really. Is that it? Yeah you Yeah I'll stop at that. Right. you did overlook death in service benefits and it is important when you're doing life cover to take Mm. that into account and you can find grossly over funding. Yeah. In actual fact Mr, Mr Goodwin had ninety thousand lump sum benefit under his pension Yeah. which is where you were getting lost between your four hundred thousand and your three hundred thousand. Mm. Yeah. Which is something you did need to take into account. Yes. Do watch that cos it's easy to overlook I never picked that up either. and it's something that as a company erm we're very careful of. You've got, I think you got lost and the reason why you, you were getting yourself erm tied up in the figures and why there was less eye contact was because you were getting a little bit lost with those figures at the top of the page. Mm. Yeah I was I wasn't happy with that. Okay you start off by finding out from the person how much they think they need. Actually I find it easier to put in the mortgage details which is page li er pa line three and any outstanding bills and loans and then basically find out from the person how much they need on top of that Yeah. when you've taken into account life cover, existing life cover and the preserved benefits you can then calculate the balance, and I think that's where you got lost wasn't it? Yes I mean I was very conscious that out of those, the top boxes we, I hadn't got the information Yeah. I mean I did ask you about the outstanding bills and loans whereas if we'd've been doing the thing properly we'd've gone through that You would already know. already and, and could've filled some of that in. Yeah. I mean the other assumption that I didn't make until we were well into the thing was that this, the, the Friends Provident policy is actually the mortgage policy Yeah. erm, you know, with preparation beforehand I would normally have, have realized that, and anything else would've been on top of it. Yeah I think you got yourself lost with the calculations Yes. Yeah I did. erm and that threw you so that's why less eye contact. When you've been through this a few times you'll That's right. Yeah. you'll you'll be very comfortable with it and I can tell you now that's one of the things that I got tied up with so Yeah yeah you I left out the referrals altogether as well I know. You left out the referrals and you didn't actually arrange the date of the second appointment No I I realize that. erm but you homed in on the needs and you persisted in finding out from me what I wanted which was good and you checked very carefully on the policies in existence so yeah, considering it's a page which erm can be a bit confusing you did very well. Thank you. And I think it was very well done. Flattery will get you everywhere. Won't it just. But that, that is a problem. So you do need to look at that page very carefully and I still get tied up sometimes and have to do a few crossings out. I think that the, the prob That's where you've got the death in service bit at the bottom. Yeah. The, the problem that I find in, in, in doing the role plays and I mean they're good what we're doing, but because you're, you're doing bits here and bits there You lose continuity. there's bits there's bits of i information that either isn't there or you're thinking about from, from previously. But yeah I did, I did ignore the death in service altogether, I, I And that is very important. And too often erm you know when you're dealing with, with other companies, cos remember the people you're seeing will be seeing people from other companies, they will overlook it as well whereas if you take it into account they will be impressed. We're not using the video ma the the video So normally I mean We're not playing it back. No no, no I realized that but I just couldn't remember . You, you would go, you would have a certain amount of information already in that Well you'd have the, the line two you'd have the bills and loans outstanding if any You've you've already got that. and line three you'd have the mortgages Mortgages. and then you do, then miss that out before you do the total Mm. and go on to the the penultimate, how's that, the penultimate line where you've got the cover that exists already Mm. and you add that together That's right. and then from that you do your calculations. And it's then that you're gonna work out how much you need Yeah. so you've already established what sort of figure they're Well if he says he wa he wants his wife to have twenty thousand a year, I mean you're looking at about two hundred and fifty, three hundred thousand gross Yeah. Oh yeah. but then you take that off. You've got you've got the ninety thousand to come off which I didn't ask about. Mm. Righto thank you very much. I mean I had the information there that you didn't. I know. But I was supposed to ask. Maggie just a, the penultimate line, you've actually to subtract the mortgage back off then? Yeah the penultimate line is where you take off the existing policies from the total need and that's what you're left with the, the guy's going to need two hundred thousand pounds to provide his wife with about eighteen, nineteen thousand a year. Good, good. Have you been told what the cheapest term assurances are in order? Decreasing term is the cheapest. Is that right Pension term assurance is the cheapest. Oh yeah I suppose it is yeah. And F I B's the next and then you've got convertible term. Mhm although he's, no he wouldn't be able, be able to do er F I B's excellent particularly when there's young children because it provides an income and it's tax free. Right. Okay. So on one of these, I shouldn't be looking at that one, that's what threw me cos first of all I didn't know you hadn't got any income and then I turned that over and that was the previous policy where you were a veterinary surgeon with eighteen thousand, I thought I'm sure that's not right cos that nineteen hundred comes No that's not goes in with that one cos I, I was gonna ask you about your income and I thought oh you're not supposed to have any income No I've ch I've had a sex change. Yes I know. I've had a sex change. Right but definitely the death in service. Yeah and that was how we use it basically Oh no what it was was you put in the amount of the mortgage, the outstanding bills Yeah that's right, cos that's one thing they will come back and do later on when they review your C C Q they may ask you to go back and say there was a loan or Yeah this, this is your salary coming in. an outstanding bill which is two thousand pounds which you haven't covered Mhm. so you add that and the outstanding mortgage Right can I just ask a wee quick question which is highly personal liability for eight thousand pounds of tax and I'm also a guarantor for my son's mortgage So that would go in there. Okay Basically you're looking to make sure that you've covered any possibility if they die tomorrow where the money would come from for any of those outstanding obligations and then here you put the total what's available, in this case it's the seventy K plus ten K That's it. there's the ninety thousand which is a hundred and seventy K Ah I see. But, but I, I realize that but would you be happy to use ? Well it's there isn't it? That's, that's that's the sixty four thousand dollar question. Yeah. I mean basically he's put that into account and then it's how much will they need on top of that so he total that he would need would be three hundred and seventy thousand pounds of which there is a hundred seventy thousand so the shortfall's twenty thousand, or two hundred thousand. So that's okay then, that's fine. So eighty thousand Yeah no I was just looking to see how you fill that in you see because I, I put Well this is the one you eight in Mm. I put nine, sorry,but then you put the joint money there as well so obviously that is included in that isn't it? Mm. Yeah right. I mean basically, I mean I don't know where she's getting the money from, the wife, but she's putting savings away every year for about two to three grand. Mhm. And it may be that that's the way they work, I'm not quite sure what you're supposed to do on this one. That was that was the other thing when you filled in the C C Q, that's when I filled in my own one, you put in the death marked there, now if you've got something that's twenty years old, five years to go and there's bonuses there It depends if it's decreasing term. If it's not decreasing it's still the same lump sum isn't it? That's right Yes those are. Robert Robert, excuse me, do you know what the er SSP allowance is? Statutory sick pay. Yeah Fifty six pound You work on a standard, fifty six pound, two nine one seven Mhm. so it's three quarters of your gross I said it's two nine one three. Oh yeah. three quarters of your gross less two nine one seven and that's, and then divide it by fifty two to get your weekly benefit. Yes I've got that I jus I wasn't quite sure about the SSP. No that's, that's the difference It's about fifty six pound a week isn't it? Fifty six pound ten exactly. No that's the difference I do it so often. Oh yeah yeah yeah. fifty six pounds. Yeah. Cos when you get to level two you just coincidental, that's when you get your two nine one seven the one and two nine one two with the other. So that's, and later on when you get to level two you can sometimes do the first and the second Right. but by that time you're experience in the C C Q. Yeah right. Right. Okay I will go and move on. Thanks Maggie. Happy hunting . Thank you very much. Thank you. Watch me handbag there's a small fortune in there. Oh right. I, I Oh we'll take it Yeah right. No we'll wa So it's your turn Joan. we'll watch it. Are you number two? You are aren't you? Er Will No I'm going No Joan's number two. Are you? Yeah. Oh sorry. Bill's number three. I'm just waiting to see whether it's Steven Sorry Will. or Martin who walks through that door. Have you put your film in? Ah no but then it'll be Will who gets Well put it this way I should, I, I should have Steven shouldn't I? I should have Steven and erm Bill should have M Martin. Martin. Then I have Maggie. Yeah. Yeah. Yes! Sorry Will. It's alright. Can I give you a bit of something that we picked up last week that may be of some benefit to you? What's that? You're doing pensions aren't you? Mhm. Mhm. we did last week wasn't it? That's right. Remember? Mhm. Just an idea. Yeah. Well I'm glad I did that one with her and not Martin. Well she'll give you the information won't she?whereas Yeah, a bit more receptive. yes whereas Martin although it is his job but he does tend to be a little bit more difficult than he needs to be. When, when you're asking the questions about the existing policies they've gotta be closed questions Yeah but don't haven't they? But you know, why did you take these policies out, you know the ten pound, ten pound, ten pound I wonder if I've got time oh no I haven't. I'm, I'm just Yeah. as a suggestion Bob. Okey-dokey. What made you take them out with three different companies They're all erm I B companies as well. That's right. I didn't mention that though. I think it's blooming difficult. Thank you very much. Was, was there any tea out there that we've missed? Yeah to, to be honest erm Rob you know I, I could see which way you were going and, and the fifteen minutes is, is erm I thought it was very well done and the only reason That's right. I mean we noticed that with the referrals and everything but it was purely that you hadn't got down to that point to ask for them. That's right. Yeah, I, I rushed the last bit Yeah. So that's purely, I mean and there's no point in picking you up on that because you just hadn't got to that point. That's right. And you wouldn't rush it, that last bit, anyway would you? If you'd have had the ti if you'd've been there Oh no, no I wouldn't have rushed through that. you'd've kept going the way you were. Yeah. You know when you come down to the referrals part of it, what is Go on then, carry on next one. jus just ignore pretend he's not here, carry on when you come down to the referrals bit I thought I was getting Steven. Erm have I come to the wrong place then? Perhaps you are. Don't do this to me. Well you were only here two gos ago. Er no Oh no . Step two yeah? Who's next then? Yeah that, no that must, that is right. Yeah. Oh don't do this to me, not on a Tuesday afternoon . So I get you right Joan? Pardon? Have I got you now? You certainly have . Good. Joan feels like that as well. Mm? You've put the video in have you? Joan's put the video in I think, have you Joan? I was because I was all ready for Steven actually. star. Pretend I am. I'm just not quite the same build and better looking. I'll explain Have you got your notes with you from last week? What's the last heading we got to? I know we've erm I shall prevent myself swearing Basically, the clip's buggered sorry? Well that's that's what we did. Oh brilliant, right. Just trying to sort this out . Yeah it's for some er it's for somebody to get a general idea of the kind of things that happen in lectures. It's what they say it's just the whole business of looking at lectures for the British National Corpus. The whole department's supposed to be involved and I keep forgetting to do it, possibly deliberately. Sorry thing is just absurdly wired up Okay then ladies and gentlemen, hello, good evening and er something yes. Right, various bits of information for you. Erm, first of all I did promise to you that I'd give you some idea of the sort of material would be on next week's erm multiple guess questions, okay? So perhaps I'll just run through some of those. Erm, can I ask you please to point out to anybody who isn't here, which I guess is quite a number of people, there's probably six or seven people who're not here, er that the test is in fact next Tuesday, that's February the twenty second, is it? Okay, and you're asked to be erm in the lec sorry in the er great hall at five o'clock if you possibly can, okay? The session will take an hour. My guess is you may not need the hour to complete the er course work but er it's always difficult to say when you set the thing, yeah? Er it's partly using some questions that've been around for a very long time but there're some subtle variations and some new ones added in, okay? So they look a little bit different. If you've got a past paper, it won't do an awful lot of good. Erm, the idea of course is you haven't got past papers an er under no circumstances leave the exam hall with the paper, okay? Please leave it on on the table. What else to say about it? Basically you're gonna get erm some questions on motivation. I can't quantify these, I can't tell you how many there'll be, but there will be questions on motivation but before that there'll be some questions on the basics of of kind of y'know studying, work, psychology, the sort of thing you'll find in an introductory chapter er not only of the Arnold book but in other books as well. Erm, there's going to be a number of questions on the ho of er selection and testing, including stuff on reliability and validity. So that was the sort of stuff that did for you for a couple of weeks before Christmas. Okay, so that's selection, testing, reliability, validity. Erm, there'll be material on impression formation and attribution which of course a number of the did an essay on, person perception, yes? Personal perception? Is that a more familiar heading? Okay? There'll be something on job satisfaction, a number of questions on job satisfaction. And er there'll be a number of questions on stress and a number of questions on leadership. And when I last looked at it, one question on behaviour modification had managed to creep on there as well but I can't remember what the question is, so you'd better pay attention for the whole of the rest of this lecture in case I in case I remember it. Okay, right erm, okay what else? Yes, erm for the final year students, your er assignment. Er the majority, but only just the majority of your assignments are complete and they are in six one eight to be picked up. Rather unfortunate because er er of course you d I can't tell you which ones I've done, which ones I haven't done, but all assignments will be back in six one eight, final year assignments, will be back in six one eight erm at some point early on Friday morning. Okay, so I've got thirty four remaining ones to mark and I've got er all day tomorrow to do that and some on Thursday and possibly some time tonight. So I'm I'm hopeful that I will comple well I'm certain that I will complete, barring accidents, the marking of final year assignments. So you'll be able to pick those up from six one eight on erm um um um on Friday morning, okay? So if you kind of er hang ar hang about til ten o'clock, they should be there by ten. And er generally I'm sort of very impressed with the standard of work on the essays so okay. Right, thanks very much for doing the erm the questionnaire last week, okay? You'll be you'll probably be interested in the results. I certainly was Okay won't stretch that far you see Okay, well basically you all felt appalling about tutorials and er, yes? How many all together? Erm, there are between sixty and seventy I think it's probably nearer the sixty end, I keep taking them out, rather than adding them in, okay?you'll be pleased to know. I d I don't think you'll find it a strain to do in an hour. I think you'll find, at a minute a question, you'll b you're okay really group dynamics? Nothing on group dynamics no. I've eliminated the group dynamics ones. Okay. Actually it's a good point because there will be er I will g be giving you different guidance obviously about the final exam where material which we haven't covered er we a examined here may well be examined, yeah? But a you've only had twenty minutes on group dynamics. I didn't really feel that there was very much there that I could I could ask you about at this stage, okay? Right, erm, okay, so tutorials then. Well erm basically the this the tutorials run by all run their course. I I've a feeling that er she may be seeing individual students this Friday er and that's all so er I don't think there will be a tutorial. Erm but there will be a new set of tutorials provided for you because I think there's a general recognition that you've been very badly treated indeed er as regards this erm and they're likely to be run by me in term three, okay? Now I'm not able to do tutorials for you this term at the times that you're available cos they clash with lectures that I do er for another course. So er the idea is that there will be tutorials provided in term three and I'll be giving you details, a published programme of those as well, okay? So there will be some tutorials. I know that many of you feel you've had almost nothing of value from the current tutorials and er erm which is rather unfortunate. In terms of lectures, there was a fairly normal distribution. That is that most of you felt they're okay, some of you felt they were quite good and some of you felt they were quite bad. They distributed normally quite well. Erm, some specific points that came up in the comments that you made. Er, firstly that I'm too fast and and er a number of people have said this to me so er and it's true so I don't wish to elaborate further on that . However, I do respond well to requests to slow down so from all courses, so do erm make sort of gestures or something. Erm but okay. The point a lot of you made was that the course does seem to be very based on one text, the Arnold text and you're quite, well you're almost right about that. Ha about half of you thought that was a good thing and about half of you thought it was a bad thing. Erm th the general idea is that I'm actually responding to a request from last years' student group so that the previous lecturer did pass on to me that the student group had been unhappy that there were too many texts referred to as they couldn't necessarily get them from the library and they couldn't afford to buy more than one text. So it was minuted in a sort of staff student consultative group last year, so I have been requested to confine it in some measure to a single text. Erm, having said that, I've not always done that. So, for example, the lecture I'm going to give you today isn't reflected at all in Arnold erm so er I think it'd be helpful if I were to give you some indication of when there were and when there weren't. Erm but er I can appreciate obviously for you, particularly final year students, to have s y'know a single text which not all of you are not that keen on, but er some of you do see it as an advantage as well. Erm um what else? Yeah. The other thing, which a lot of you asked for, was more handouts and more overhead projector slides. Erm I I've had a couple of difficulties with those. Er one is actually getting the O H P's so that you can see them at the back. It's actually quite a deep lecture theatre, I think it's probably the biggest the University possesses outside the great hall, and er it it's difficult to get them large enough so that everyone can see at the back. One option might be that I'll produce some slides. There's a slide projector at the back of the hall which I can control from the front so I may be aiming to get some slides for you instead of the overhead projector . The other difficulty with handouts is there's an awful lot of you g to give the handouts to so we tend to waste a lot of time. Er but again y'know I could in theory provide some handouts for you which you could perhaps pick up at the end of the er of the lecture from the front or even have available in a general office for you, okay? So I do take note of those and I'll see what I can do about those, okay? Erm, having said that, I think lecturers tend to accumulate these things over time and this is the first year I've run this course so I don't have a great stock of things I can I can show you. Right, oh yes, what else? Erm , if he's here, could I see him afterwards about his request for er a questionnaire? Okay, so, where we got to last week then was looking at the analysis and modification of er work behaviour. So if we can erm take that a bit further. I think the last the last heading you got, well you put a heading down before we finished and that was organisational behaviour and modification. Is that true? Yes it is. Good. Okay. Well I think the the er other point I was making last week was that erm this whole are of learning theory is erm y'know a very traditional area. Bye . Was it something I said already? Erm, this whole area of learning theory is a very traditional area but it has it has been very influential actually very recently, despite being very ancient. It's been influential very recently in clinical psychology and also in work psychology. Erm so erm what we've got then is is the the idea of ah looking at some kind of behavioural analysis, although I'll got into behavioural analysis in just a few minutes. And also er looking at the kind of rewards that erm an employee might benefit. If you're going to use this by by rewarding specific desired behaviour you need to have a look at a reward list and there's a whole range of potential rewards that've been around. Simple feedback itself, feedback of performance, can be a powerful sort of reward, okay? But other people have used things like tokens which can be y'know saved up to exchanged for consumer durables for example. So er if you y'know do the desired behaviour, you collect so many vouchers and er y'know when you've got ten vouchers you exchange it for a television or something like that, but there's a whole range of things of that nature. Erm, okay, let's have a look briefly at the idea of a token economy. Now this is something more from clinical use but again has potential uses in work psychology. But the notion of a token economy is that you reward desired behaviour at the point at which the behaviour is performed, okay? And there's a lot of evidence which suggests that immediate reward is much more effective than delayed reward, okay? So it's important to reward at the point of the desired behaviour, okay? So for example pay schemes whereby pr productivity is rewarded once a year would seem to not y'know deal with that very effectively. Okay, so ha if you're going to reward at the point of of actually doing the desired behaviour you've got a problem because people er you may not be able to give them something appropriate at that time which is rewarding. The standard example comes from working with children. The child has behaved itself and you want to reward the child then you er you give them some kind of er a chocolate bar or something, or a handful of Smarties or something. Erm, the difficulty is that you can't really do that in work situations. People may be motivated by bigger rewards. So the idea is you have some kind of token so that er, classic example in sort of junior schools, primary schools, that y'know if a child actually does what you want it to do, it gets a kind of star in a star chart and added up so many stars it gets some kind of present and basically the same kind of thing can be applied in clinical and in occupational settings as well. So you're able to reward people ah with some kind of appropriate er some kind of token, a star or whatever it happens to be, some kind of token which it can then hav has a monetary value, okay? Er and in theory terms, primary reinforcers are something which meets biological needs, like food is a primary reinforcer, okay? Er however people are y'know are also reinforced by things which have no direct value. Like we are reinforced heavily by money. Money has no direct value, it has an exchange value. So the idea of tokens exchange value so they're rather like money. Er another idea is is which I think is can be useful here, particularly in comes to focusing problems and difficulties at work is the idea of a behavioural analysis, okay? Now a behavioural analysis, or perhaps another way of looking at this is a decision analysis, is quite interesting. The sort of thing you might do was, if you've got a decision, is you might want to look t at the of that decision, okay? So you might want to look at erm er somebody's thoughts feelings, something about the situation okay? So you've got you've got things which set up or stimulate the behaviour or the decision. We can call that okay? And we can have a look at some consequences of that so you could have short term, long term consequences. You can break it down further, you can add in things here about what somebody wanted, okay, what somebody was trying to get hold of, what they wanted, and also perhaps what they wanted to avoid. So let's add a couple more columns in and then back here you can have a look at whether they actually gain those, whether they got what they wanted. Then you can start looking at at er at alternatives okay, and what you end up with is a is a way of analysing er a decision or a choice to behave in a certain way, okay? So you can look at ah a whole lot of things like this. I'm used to d using this kind of material in relation to people's decisions about addictive behaviours. Er so if you look at their smoking erm people can fill in a kind of smoking chart in which you look at that. Or again, at drinking behaviour. If somebody goes on a drinking binge that's the behaviour, the decision they make. What is going on that led up to that? What's what's the factors in y'know involved in that decision, that behaviour? What're the consequences of that, okay? So you've got a way of analysing behaviour and what that leads you into is the ability to manipulate the consequences of certain behaviour, okay? A lot of behavioural work is about manipulating the consequences, okay? So that er you can give somebody short term benefits and long term benefits for behaving differently, okay? You can identify alternative decisions, alternative behaviours, look at the consequences of those. You can also manipulate the outer feelings of the behaviour as well. Okay, so you've got an a kind of an analysis tool which will then enable you to look at how you may seek to modify behaviour. Okay. Let's have a look at a practical example now. Let's have a look at a sample study . Okay and nineteen eight-one. Erm, they investigated the use of ear defenders in a high noise textile factory, okay? So the company had supplied ear defenders, they wanted their work force to use those ear defenders erm but in fact there was very little use of them. So the noise level in the factory was sufficient to be a threat to the er the hearing of their employees. The company had a responsibility to avoid that. Er but ear defender use is only thirty five percent, which is fairly grim. Okay, so what they did was they looked at what would be an attractive reinforcer in their work force erm, if if they were to persuade them to wear ear defenders, and they found out, from doing research in the work force, that consumer durables would be appropriate. That's what the work force would like as rewards for the desired behaviour, was consumer durables. Okay, so they got the base line measurement, thirty five percent people use them, then they went to a variable ratio er token economy system. Do you remember we talked about schedules of reinforcement last week? Yes? That you get one to one reinforcement. The rat's in the box, presses a lever, gets an item of food. But, if we make the reward of the item of food erm not predictable, okay, so it comes at variable intervals er then the rat actually works harder pressing the lever, it's more likely to do the behaviour and it's less likely to give up doing that behaviour afterwards, okay? So we know that a variable ratio reinforcement is likely to maximise the production of behaviour and erm also minimise the chance of that behaviour being given up immediately reinforcement is withdrawn. So there's theoretical grounds for suggesting that a variable er variable interval erm, did I say a variable interval or variable ratio? I've got variable ratio down here, token economy system would be used. Now what this meant in practice was that er y'know appropriate supervisors would appear at random intervals and give people tokens if they were wearing ear defenders, okay? But not all the time, okay? So a supervisor appears at random, on some occasions they get tokens, some occasions they don't. So any time a supervisor appears, which could be any time, you might get a token, okay? Now the tokens are actually worth quite a lot in in terms of consumer durables. It's a bit like the sort of green shield stamps idea, or Esso petrol stations, whatever it is, yes? If you're wearing the ear defenders when the supervisor comes round and happens to be on the token dishing out tour and you're wearing them, you get your token, okay? Collect so many tokens you get a T V or a washing machine or whatever it is that you want. You save up for the tokens to get what get y'know whatever it is you're after. Okay, that led to an immediate rise in the use of ear defenders to ninety percent, okay? So it went right up to ninety percent straight away. Er the the study actually lasted two months but the er the behaviour continued at ninety p at ninety percent for nine months' follow up. So, highly effective, and no drop off there. Another example, I won't give it in the same detail. Similar sort of principle erm and you give er you give people lottery tickets if they turn up on time. tried to increase er erm well reduce tardiness at work, make sure people turn up on time, you have somebody dishing out lottery tickets to people who get there by nine o'clock, something like that, okay? Similar sort of basis. Okay, well there's more technical detail I could go into but I think y'know I'm not sure how how useful it is to you. There's also more recent studies that you can look at as well, apart from that sample one I've given you. Erm but I think you will find that well covered in Arnold's book. I know I did in some some detail, particularly in the theory elements, which isn't in Arnold's book, but er I think you'll find that well covered there. Okay, any questions arising from that so far? Behaviour, the whole learning theory of behaviour and all that stuff at work? Jolly good. Okay, well let's go on to the next topic I'm proposing to cover and that's communication in organisations . Okay, you may be wondering why I'm wired up with not one but two microphones today. Th there is erm a study going on to do with something called the British National Corpus which I don't quite know what that's about but they they want er samples of the sort of things that lecturers do in lecture theatres. Erm so I'm not quite sure how representative I am but er I think they do this every forty years or something and then they kind of analyse the sort of speech content, that sort of stuff. So they're just after a kind of random sample of Aston lecturers and as as the official random sample keep forgetting to put the er put the tape in the machine, or turn it on or whatever, it's handed on to me so I'm now wired up to an extraordinary degree. Anyway, communication organisations. First of all, I suggest to you that communication ar is an absolutely key process. At a common sense level you could argue it's not possible to have er any kind of relationship without communications so communication equals relationship, relationship equals communication, common sense idea. Y'know one way you can look at this as a social glue, another expression value. So you can look at er communication as relating to overall competence and perhaps at a stronger level than that, you could argue that erm communication determines not only the structure but also the strength and the scope of an organisation, okay? So communication very essential, if you like, it determines the structure, the strength and the scope of an organisation. Okay, now by the way you find this material actually covered in Arnold at all. There's nothing in Arnold on communication so for those of you who who particularly want me to stay with Arnold, sorry this time round. Erm but you will find quite a lot of relevant material in and , or alternatively and , depending on which edition you've got and and elsewhere also. Okay, let's have a look at the basic idea of communication. Basically what we're talking about is . Okay, so that's the kind of basic idea. Okay, in terms of communication. If you've got an idea or a message to send it has to be encoded in some way then there's various mediums or media by which it can be transmitted but it's got to be decoded by the receiver for the idea or message to be understood, and there's some kind of feedback mechanism potentially from the receiver to the sender. And we should bear in mind that there's potential noise, okay, affecting many parts of this. Okay, well let's have a look at different forms of communication. I think we can start of on this at this heading of er forms of communication. Have you all got that down by the way? Do you want to, do you want me to shut up while you write that down? Yes you do really don't you? I shall just look decorative for a couple of minutes . Right, so, forms of communication then, a sub-heading. Different forms, well let's concentrate on two, oral communication, written communication. Okay well I think oral communication is mostly two way, that's one distinction we can make. Written communication mostly one way. Let let's relate this to organisation. Do you go and tell somebody about something, or do you write them a memo? Okay, so the memo version is pretty well one way people write memos back but it it's a kind of one way communication if you give somebody some information in a memo, okay? Should you be writing? Should you be speaking to them personally? Well research suggests that something like eighty eight percent, that's research by Klaus and Bass, Klaus and Bass nineteen eighty-eight, actually I may have got that date wrong so I'm not sure you should quote the date, anyway it's Klaus and Bass. Eighty three percent of communication in a in a sample organisation was face to face rather than with memoranda. The general preference was that if the message or the information was ambiguous, it was preferable to use oral forms of communication. So if it's an ambiguous message go and tell somebody about it so it can be clarified. On the other hand, if it was quite clear and unambiguous then a written form was preferred Okay, now a study by Daft et al, Daft as in y'know one marble short of a whatever yeah or okay er Daft et al nineteen eighty-seven had a look at managers' use of er of these two different media and found that in general most managers were media sensitive. What they meant by that was that managers would do the kind of thing I've just described like y'know transmit an ambiguous message orally rather than in a memo and visa versa. However there was a y'know significant minority who were not media sensitive, who seemed to send out messages pretty well at random erm they'd use whatever medium they happened to think of at the t off the spur of the moment rather than actually relating the medium to the message if you like. And er what they found was that the media sensitive managers were much more likely to be regarded as highly successful and sensitivity in selection of media by relating the medium to the message would seem to relate quite closely to erm y'know high performance as a manager Let's have a look at non-verbal behaviour. There's a number of fairly obvious things here. Perhaps the most obvious one is to do with dress, like how do you dress at a at a job interview, how do you dress in a particular sort of er function at work. There's certainly amongst managers, certainly amongst male managers that there is an assumption that people wear suits, isn't there? So you hear sometimes hear in an organisation when a manager approaches like, here come the suits the the er. It's very interesting working in a university, what is appropriate for university lecturers to wear. Certainly er the higher up the the kind of er organisation at a university the tendency is to is to wear different things. O much more complex perhaps for women as well, more choices there. Nothing very radical to tell you about that, just to sort of mention it. Issues about time are quite interesting also. Er, if you look at status and length of time you get kept waiting, then the length of time you get kept waiting reflects the status differential between you and the person you're waiting on, okay? We've all had to wait for doctors and dentists, yeah? This is cos they tend to be high status professionals who's time is relatively precious, so that you can go to the extent of actually having waiting rooms that you can be kept hanging around in. Erm, if you look at organisations then if you if you go and er visit somebody of low status, you tend not to be kept waiting very long at all. Erm, medium status it may go up to more like five minutes, very high status it may be approaching ten minutes, okay? So there is a relationship there. Yeah? Yes, yes, you're absolutely right. It's it's to do with the difference if you like. Given, let let's say y'know somebody of a status goes to see somebody of equivalent status wait so it's it's about the distance, yeah. okay? Erm and it's it's quite interesting to look at that. What else? There's something else about use of space as well. Certainly within universities the more senior the the member of staff the more likely they are apparently to use a desk as a barrier erm so that they sort of er y'know you see them from behind a desk, when you're at the front of the desk and they're behind the desk. Erm if you look at er at a standard sort of table, look at a standard sort of rectangular table y'know person sitting here relative to ones sitting there, tends to be of higher status. Indeed, if you've got groups with no status distinctions between them the person who, by chance, lands up sitting there tends to end up behaving as a leader, okay? So there's a relationship between space, status and leadership there. Erm you can a even look at er look at erm this sort of er non-verbal messages about organisations in terms of architecture. That's an interesting one. Erm, not very relevant to your course unfortunately but very interesting stuff. If you're at all interested in that area then I have got you a reference I can give you to hand but it's but a great deal of er architecture, certainly the thirties, forties, fifties reflected corporate status, corporate identity. Erm if you look at er the kind of erm soviet er architecture of the thirties and you can relate that quite nicely to a kind of American corporate architecture in the fifties designed to project certain sort of things. Erm,i there's y'know construct architecture as any other form of er communication that must be quite an interesting thing to do. How about, perhaps at this point, having a look at non-verbal behaviour, perhaps more broadly? I'm gonna suggest to you that er if w if we're going to think about channels of communication then we could arguably divide up inter-personal communication to three broad sets of channels so it will will be familiar to some students already I think, er but not certainly not to many second years. I hope not anyway. Erm, very broadly, we can distinguish between verbal communication yes the words we choose to use inter-personally, okay, verbal communication. No I I'd suggest perhaps a couple of categories of non-verbal communication. Er, a category you could call, loosely, vocal and a category we could call body language perhaps, okay? So what I want to suggest is that the second two categories I've mentioned, that's the vocal channel and the body language channel can actually be very important in communication. What I'd like you to do now is er, just for a couple of minutes, informally with the people sitting next to you, see if you can list as many channels as you can under those second two headings, okay? I don't want you to tell me about the messages that those channel give, okay? Let me give you an example to start with. Erm, under body language you mi there might be a category of er channels around the theme of gesture, okay? Now one or two gestures have very specific meanings as perhaps you're aware, okay? I'm not interested in you telling me what those meaning are or coming out with kind of y'know ideas that crossing your arms means that you're defensive or anything like that. I'm interested in the channels themselves, okay? So I'm interested in non-verbal channels in terms of body language y'know what do you do with your body that's communicative? And non-verbal channels in terms of voice, okay? What is there about the voice, vocal channels that're not to do with the actual words spoken? Two minutes then Okay then erm I guess that's your couple of minutes up. Erm I hope you've lots of interesting ideas. Let's go for the for the sort of erm the vocal bit first. What kind of channels have you come up with in terms of vocal communication? Yeah, intonational tone, okay? Very very critical one, intonation of tone. What else? Volume, right, speed, tone, so you've got tone volume speed. What else? Clarity yes mhm okay go for that I'm not fussy I mean you can . What else? What about what about issues around around fluency? Okay, to do with pauses for example. You can have you can have stuff to do with fluency. C can you spot when a speaker is nervous? As as students in a lecture you can tell when a lecturer is nervous. Okay, because they stumble over their words, they mistakes yes okay? So things about fluency. You can it's fairly easy to distinguish between somebody who's not very fluent because there's something technically very difficult about the topic and they can't actually explain it and er and somebody who's actually very nervous so you get different kinds of of er speech errors fluency and speech errors. Anything else there? Because I t I go for verbal as the actual choice of words, okay? So can you imagine if you had a conversation with somebody from er er another country and you had no language in common at all? You would still ha be able to have some kind of interaction but it wouldn't actually be verbal because there would be no words in common, okay? If I give you an example. Erm, if you may not have had to do this, you may have to in the future. If you've got a toddler with you, a two year old and this toddler is is sort of er y'know you're looking in the shop window and this toddler's sort of thirty yards away and about to walk in front of a bus okay? Then it doesn't matter so much what you say that stops it walking in front of the bus, it's actually how you say it. Does that make sense? A and think of think of, anybody here got dogs? Or familiar with dogs? Yeah? You c it's not what you say to the dog, it's how you say it y'know. It's er it's like, y'know if your dog's called Rover, it's if you want get it to pay attention, it's the way you say Rover or B M W or . Erm okay so vocal is about the w is about how you use your voice. Let's go on to the second category, the er the body language bit. Who's got who's got some headings that some some channelled under body language? Any suggestions? Posture Posture, thank you Facial expression Facial expression, very very critical one. Facial expression, yeah Stance Stance yeah. I think stance is a kind of sub-category of posture . Posture perhaps sitting stance something else yeah Well we've got gesture Yeah, gesture, right What else? You must have thought of some more than that. What about issues about personal space? Social distance, yeah? Okay, you'll find there're big er cultural differences there. Okay, we're we're a non, in the U K as a culture we don't stand very close to people but actually women stand a lot closer to women than women to men or men to men. Erm, touch? It's a form of communication Erm smell's an interesting one. Smell tends doesn't seem to be that relevant. I think I think er these days people take er take baths and showers quite often and you have to be pretty close to somebody before you smell them I guess, I mean I hope you do anyway . Yeah, it's interesting that. It used to be much more important. Er apparently there's a story about Napoleon and not tonight Josephine stuff. I I the way I s I think I think was it Josephine he was married to, then then she would er she would object very strongly if he had a bath before they went to bed together. She liked him to smell really strongly so so, people have very personal smells . You know if you're very attached to somebody, you're very attached to the smell of them. Er yeah. Okay,y it's true. Okay, what else? What else have you got er under that under the body language? Eye contact. Eye contact, direction of gaze, that sort of stuff. Okay now is that sort of stuff important, do you reckon? Is it is it important? Yeah okay. Just to kind of get a feel of that importance, erm let's think about some categories of communication which we may not use verbal channels for very much, okay? Two or three categories here. First category I suggest is is about attitude in the sense of liking, disliking. We don't tend to go up to people and say, I like you, okay? Very much, okay? Imagine yourself in a night club. D do you go to night clubs? Ima okay, suppose you're at a night club and suppose that you really like somebody you've been dancing with. How do you communicate to them that you really like them? Do you go up to them and say, I like you? It could be an interesting approach but, I mean what do you do? I mean do you er stand nearer them? Look at them more? Find excuses to brush against them? Touch yeah? Okay, it's all done non-verbally, yeah? And suppose suppose that you've been dancing with somebody and you really don't like them at all. How d'you c how d'you persuade them to go away? Well qu alright okay. So I think a stuff about attitude, liking, disliking. The second category would be emotion. I d very often we don't label our emotions verbally. We communicate how we feel non-verbally, okay? And the third the third category would be er would be that punctuation, we we use non-verbal communication to punctuate er verbal interactions. Y'know if you wanna have a go, you wanna say something, then you make quite subtle gestures to catch the eye of somebody and so on. So we punctuate this stuff. So I'm gonna suggest that extremely important for these categories of communication, maybe less important if you're dealing with er purely technical interactions, purely technical conversations. Erm but if you're dealing with issues about human relationship then they're very very important, very powerful and er they they can make a huge difference familiarity, sensitivity in the use of this kind of can be very important Okay, we'll come back to that cos I w when we come when we're actually looking at improving communication we'll come back to those issues. Okay, let's have another heading. Let's have a look at major influences er on communication in organisations. I think it w basically an organisational structure is important. Like y'know we we've mentioned organisational structure I think in the very first lecture er that idea, the idea that you've got a kind of box at the top labelled president and you've got two boxes underneath labelled vice president and you've got y'know one box goes off to sales manager y'know the sort of thing I mean, okay? So the shape of those things can be very important and, if we're going to look at those, y'know look at communication within an organisational structure we can think about communication that goes up from the bottom of the organisational structure to the top, we can look at communication that goes down, from the top of the organisation downwards and we can look at communication that goes across, okay? So three ways in which communications may flow, okay? And the communications in fact will be of a quite a different nature in each of those categories. So if you have a look at the idea of communication flowing down from the top of the structure lower down then w what's that communication going to be including? Well I'd suggest it includes, for example, instructions, erm directions, or perhaps more bluntly, orders. Okay so directions, instructions, orders, flowing down from the top of the structure to the bottom of the structure and perhaps also some feedback as well. Okay, so we're looking at a flow of communication from the top of the structure to the bottom of the structure, orders, directions, instructions, feedback. Interesting point here is, are these orders, directions, instructions, whatever, are they accurately perceived towards the bottom of the hierarchy, okay? So there's a very interesting study by a person who's name I'm going to write on the board okay so or et al nineteen ninety. Okay, what th what er this research looked at was the accuracy of perception of communication. Now clearly there's a distinction to be drawn oral oral communication and written communication but they were doing this generally. Y'know at this point not necessarily to ds distinguish between oral and written communication. What they found was there was actually sometimes substantial differences between what the managers thought they had communicated and what the subordinate thought they'd received, okay? So there's a potential gap, a potential meaning gap there. What's been said, what's been heard. Okay now, obviously the the greater the number of channels things go through, the greater potential for for the confusion, okay? So there's classic sort of stories about organisation where the the er president of the organisation asks somebody to investigate something and that gets translated by the vice president into sort of rather more hostile sort of thing and basically it ends up with somebody at the bottom of the pile having their ass kicked or whatever because it's been translated, or mis- translated down, okay? Now, even where there is no mis-translation present, there's still a possibility of a gap in perception and er s this research identified that gap in in perception was associated with er with poor outcomes, okay, whatever the particular problem was, that the bigger the misperception, the worse the outcome around. Okay, let me just finish this section then we'll take er we'll er we'll take a break to er take a break for the rest of the day actually yes . Erm, in terms of communication up an organisation if that doesn't sound to rude but erm okay, from the bottom of the organisation to the top of the organisation, there's a hell of a lot less of it, okay? There's far more communication flowing down than there is flowing up. There's a very old study by Walker and Guest nineteen fifty-two and I think you might find the findings may reflect the fifties quite a lot, found that seventy percent of assembly line workers erm initiated upwards communication. In other words, initiated communication with their supervisor erm less than once a month, okay? So very little init initiation of communication up the hierarchy, okay? Now this may reflect the 1950's, it may reflect er traditional manufacturing practices in ah probably in the U K. Erm, if you look at managers, manager are at a y'know, most managers are mid-point in communication hierarchies. You'll find that by and Larson, I'll put that on the board for you and Larson nineteen eighty-six, found that managers only direct fifteen percent of their communication upwards, okay? So managers erm essentially communicate downwards, okay? They may be communicated with from above but the communication that init they initiate only fifteen percent of that communication is initiated upwards. speculate why not, of course. Why t why c why do they not communicate upwards and I think essentially people it in subordinate positions are about managing the impressions others have of them and tend to believe the notion, no matter how true it is, that er that organisations may have a shoot the messenger philosophy, yes? Nobody likes to be the bearer of bad news. You don't want to be the one who tells your boss that er a production line has broken down again or y'know that they've failed to meet their sales targets for the third month running, whatever it is, okay? People like to present good news, like to present themselves favourably and of course organisations, many organisations, do in practice have a y'know shoot the messenger y'know if the messenger brings bad news, shoot the messenger er philosophy. Y'know as a manager you don't want to hear problems, you don't want to hear bad news, you don't want to hear disaster. It's very easy then of course to punish the person er who communicates that with you er which ultimately can can er totally divorce an organisation from the reality of what it's actually doing so that kind of philosophy, very destructive in terms of er effective communication. Okay well next week we'll carry on with this material, looking at communication networks. Now I'm sure you'd like to know what I'm gonna be teaching next week apart from this so if you'd like to read ahead, we'll be looking at decision-making in organisations, okay? If you'd like to try and find that. I don't think that's in Arnold Sorry? Oh, it's not next week. It's assessment next week sorry about that. Can I speak to as well please? So can I speak to to and to if they're here? gotta get through with a prayer now. What do you think of the new room then? It's warmer. I don't like the layout very much though. Now this is, as far as I'm concerned, this is the last lecture you're gonna get off of me. We've got a seminar coming up and I think I'll arrange to show Jeannie. Er, hands up who saw the Horizon programme on Jeannie Okay, so so you don't want to see it then do you really? You you You only saw the f oh now oh right so, hands up who saw it all the way through and would not want to see it again as part of the seminar. One two three four. So four of you don't want to see it. What shall we do then? We can arrange the seminar to have different slots so the ones who don't want to watch Jeannie we can discuss erm, what would you like to discuss? I'll come up with a topic Wah, we're not doing that. We're doing that today. Okay, so I'm covering the exam stuff today. But you can use the Jeannie slot as erm a revision thing, you come and have a chat with me about the course, or we can show the video. What I'll do is arrange to show the video for the seminar in case you haven't got any questions, yeah? You normally haven't anyway. I mean you don't normally don't want to talk to me. aah Play to the sympathy if nothing else. Okay, now what I've got here are two handouts crumpled or stapled together as one. Now these represent two lectures on group processes that're given to the first year social psychology students at Aston. These aren't my lecture notes they I cribbed them off the social psychologist and made copies last night. Some of you will only have two sheets. Erm, if that's the case, you'll notice that the two copies that you've got have the writing on the back. So some of them have got both sides, some of them have got a mixture. Some of you will only have three sheets, which the last one will have it on two sides. So whi what I'm trying to say to you is that you should have four sides of written text, whether it's on two pages, three or four What I will do is go through the headings and give you a very brief description of that so that you know roughly what's in them. I'm not gonna spend a I mean there's a good couple of hours talking here and w I'm gonna use the time more productively I think talking about other aspects of the course. Now, starts off, most of it taken from social psychology text books. Er and is the sort of standard one that we were using at Aston when these handouts were written erm but you should find that the same sorts of things are discussed in or in Atkinson. I think has probably got a better coverage on groups. I'm not sure but I think it has. It turns out that trying to define what a group is is quite difficult a what distinguishes a group of people from a mob of people er a group of people queuing at a bus stop, are they a group well you don't think so normally. So erm the first paragraph there deals with erm how people have defined groups. No definition is spot on really, you can always find difficulties with it but they do sort of discuss it in the first paragraph. The next one is saying, okay, do people change their behaviour in the presence of others? Well really that's l by and large what groups is all about so it's clearly that they do and there's some cases here of sort of cyclists cycling harder and faster when they've got they're training with other cyclists or erm when they're training against the clock. Some sort of buzz words known as social facilitation and social inhibition which come from the work of Allport. Looking at how people's behaviour or performance is either improved or detracted from in the presence of others. Right so we talk about social facilitation and inhibition. It's an all embracing term actually and it could be taken across many aspects. You can link it up with the work on that was done on human performance. It turns out that if you're gonna give a talk or something and it's a talk that's well rehearsed and well known, you give it better when there's a lot of people in a passive audience than when there's one or two. However, if it's something you're not very confident and sure about, quite often the presence of other people makes you fall to bits. If you ever try to do a ha a demonstration for anybody erm or a group of people involving a sort of manual skill, you find that it goes to pieces if it's not a very well rehearsed skill, whereas you find you can actually get very your performance is a lot better when you've got an audience if you know the skill very well. You find it in motor skills. I think that's mentioned in there as well. Erm distinction made when you're sort of talking about audiences th the sort of participating audience where we interact and there's the one where I sort of talk to you and you're passive that. Groups have been sort of defined in different types of groups. People try to classify what sorts of group or characteristics there are of groups and you find that people look at group size, let's go through the list, group size, communication networks, roles and expectations, norms and rules, okay well roles and expectations, norms and rules slightly different. So what it's talking about there is how you can actually define a group. I mean if you allow everybody in the group to have free access to everybody else in the group you may get a sort of different characteristic erm than if you only allow certain hierarchy to exist within the group, certain lines of communication. A lot of work done in the fifties by a chap called and perhaps I think is was a later work based on the early work of , I can't remember exactly. Okay, it starts so what we're talking there in text books you'll find they define groups in terms of their structure and their composition and they're the sorts of things that they usually pick out Okay, there's a lot of work then on interaction in groups. You can link this also up with the work that was done on conformity with the Ash experiments. D'you remember the video where you had a group of people all agreeing different sizes and group size was an important aspect of erm whether or not people tended to conform. So you can link that up with the earlier work that we did. There's a list of references there. Well they're there for just covering the ones that're in the handout. I don't expect you to actually read any. Go and read if you're gon a good introductory si social psychology book like and Well to be quite clear I'm prepared to allow debate on that motion if you wish it to be if the majority of you wish there to be a fight, but if the majority wish the er to pass the vote on the amendment I will take that, do you wish to. May I ask then formally those who wish to pass, now to the vote on the amendment I'm that you have to call for those in favour intention will you now call for a vote for those against I'll call for a vote for quite clear I am going to stick to what I've said that I consider that the amendment has been proposed it can be if it's to be accepted it can then be accepted by the Committee as a whole excuse me can I ask a question? Can I assist here? the motion that has been mooted and the amendment has been proposed the amendment has been accepted the question now is whether what the the motion has been made and uh it is a matter for you to go to your suggested that certain members be allowed to speak at the end of the day it is a matter for you to decide uh control of the who is allowed to speak on that particular motion as amended of course here here is that a the wish of the committee thirteen minutes and is it specifically other members not each just go into the debate don't waste all the time right, ah may I call on the first person to whom this is going to be I believe you speak on the thank you um,it will be quick ah one of the things which caused distress last year was the reduction in the for sixth formers and I was sorry to see that it wouldn't be restored this time. But the next best thing is for more money towards fourteen to nineteen education so that's very welcome at least and was widely supported in the various versions we saw this morning, my concern is with the way in which this money is to got from the centre to the school and I'd like to speak very strongly in favour of what if I got what you're is education so that we aim to assist schools to build on their own interests and and not have it parcelled out by some central authority which is and which a sigh of this is an area of great relevance to schools the apartments that going, we just supply one. Our work goes to the Axminster Mhm. department. Mhm. Have you been in B M K like for a number of years, is this your first job or do you do jobs ? No I worked at er in an office, I worked in offices before I got married and eventually had my daughter. And then after I had my daughter I was going to go back in there but at the time it was just like a junior's position, Mhm. and now it's a wee bit further on than that and I thought it was demeaning. But in retrospect thinking back I should just have and waited for something else come along. Aha. So I had a job for about a year er in a fruit shop and then I didn't like the Saturday work so I decided I'd have a go in a factory, aha, and I come in it was over in the other place, the noise was unbelievable, really unbelievable. Mhm. I said, I'll never stick this, and all these women and they said, no it isn't very, so twenty one years later here I am, I'm still here. You're quite settled now, aye. No I'm not settled and I'm not happy but but the, the work market is not that good, I mean I don't That's right. have a, a degree Yeah. in anything, all I Yeah. was doing was a shorthand typist. Aha, aye. So a a and there's nothing much in , I'm at the No. stage that I want to put That's right. my knapsack on my back and find out what's going on in the world. Before it's too late, I mean I don't want to reach Mm. fifty or sixty and say is Mm. this it? Because that's it. Yeah, mhm. But I would, I would like to just like pack it in and go. I'm trying to wait till my daughter's married. Aha. Mm. Cos she's still erm she finishes in December up in Glasgow, this her it's like her fourth, fourth term at Glasgow Mhm. doing an honours degree in maths, so I'm waiting till she's finished and then Mhm. that'll be it. Mhm. Mm. I feel as if I'll have done my bit. I find that actually speaking to people my dad, mum and dad, well my mum works in an office, my dad works in a factory, and they've always been very much sort of you know go out and get your education and Mhm. Do you find that people working in here are like that with their children, do you think they sort of push them so you don't, you know don't end up working in a factory like me? No, I wouldn't say that at all, you, you can only guide your children or show, show them the road, you can't actually force them Mhm. unless they want to do it themselves. Aha. Cos I often wonder, don't you get fed up all these exams and Mhm. my daughter travels up and down to Glasgow cos she didn't want to stay, she wanted to be at home, Mhm. she must be fed up going up and down to Glasgow. And, and all these tests and they've a project here and this, that and the other Mhm. But no, she must do it while she's young Mhm. cos she found out, in her first year, she had a, a mature student and I wondered how old a mature student and he turned out to be thirty five, and he was married, his wife was supporting him and he was doing jobs on the side, Yeah. and he couldn't hack the first year, he failed the first year, and he failed the resits. Mhm. So she decided this is the time to do it, when you're young, Yeah. and you've no re no hang ups, no responsibilities, nothing in the sign. Mhm. So er when she wants to do it I'm behind her, Yes. she's had her chance and I'm doing all I can to help her but at the end of the day it's on her shoulders. Aha, aha. If she, she fails at, at the last hurdle well she's gave it her best shot. Don't take too many. I only got I only got No you didn't get. Amy don't tip the Come on not the whole packet out. I'm not. You just tip it carefully that will do for the time being and eat those first I don't feel we've done a lot this half term have we? Pardon? I don't think we've done much this half term. Much? Not supposed to be to unclear unclear We're on the next tape Oi! Jenny's didn't come out very well. Didn't she? No couldn't really hear very well. Will I listen? No not now I'm going to put it away. Well it's not so easy when they're further away is it? That'll have a nice sound with you eating crisps Thank you. Amy! Behave! Yeah exactly. You have a nice cough Mm mm. Thank you Well if daddy goes back up to work tomorrow I think we might go out to London. You've booked Taff haven't you? We've got I wasn't really expecting to go into Jenny's. No I suppose she felt pretty awful about not inviting Amy to the party. Yes. She might do. Pardon? I don't think she expected a present Why why didn't she? Well I think that Amy didn't go to Lucy's party I think Pardon? I think if you didn't go to Lucy's party I don't think. Jenny was expecting a present. From what's come in. She looked a bit surprised didn't she? Yes hmm You know she'd rather do Chimneys or something tomorrow than London Zoo. Pardon? We rather go to Chimney's tomorrow than to London Zoo. Oh. I was asking. Would you? Probably. Yeah. to London Zoo. Don't you like London Zoo particularly? I don't Clare doesn't really like going round all the creatures do you? What? Would you like go . Might not be right. I would quite like to go to Chimneys actually. It's not too far aways. No it's easier. But it's easier if you got tact. Why It's easier if you've got tact tomorrow Mm Why? Well because tac doesn't finish till till half past twelve. Don't you got one of those Don't know how they've decided whose has got one. Decide what? Could be just our way. I don't know how they decided who's got one Do you think it's worth twenty five pounds? That must be it You can't get too many people doing it unless Marks and Spencers free. I don't think Marks and Spencers will give them free. Twenty five pounds? Did you like Amy's suit? Not very much but I Do you know what you can wear underneath it? I think you're supposed to wear a T-shirt. It's a bit cold. Hmm. I was just reading that. Peter. Huh? Who did Eve have on her plate Amy? Mrs Tiggywickle. Who did Eve have on her plate? Plate? Mrs Tiggywinkle. Mrs Tiggywinkle did she? I was telling her what it said. You haven't done any Pardon? You haven't done any reading have you? You'd better read a chapter before we go out this afternoon. He's got a musical test which says don't they're tired they're tired and then he said the pig says I'm not and then the people said Oh dear and then he said I'm hungry and then they said they're hungry and he says I'm not and he's sleepy . I don't like story. She read that to me. It was quite easy um I read it again to her . It was quite a good reason really. Well I think Jenny's um sort of We've never had hardly seen it before because I haven't lawn in that book before have I? You haven't had what? Lawn. Ah. The word you mean? Yes. Ah. Perhaps not. Pardon? Oh is that in her book? You could read it could you? Mm. But if I just she said lawn so I knew what it said. But she made it first than me. I've been through quite a lot. Mm. Yes you're doing quite well I've got two Said long words like that kept using very long words. Like I shall excavate this house. I hope not. you aught to use long words. That's probably what they want to know. Which words you do use. Can't remember In conversation. You going to take it to Jenny's with you tomorrow? I suppose so. I suppose we'd better take it wherever we go. Yeah you can just about it . They can hear what you're saying now. Yes I can hear everyone. It only picks Hello! Stop it. No. Stop it. Not, well just behave. You shouldn't have done. Doesn't make it any better if you messed about it picked up what I said but it didn't pick up very well what Jenny said. Yep. But what I said. Don't know. I didn't listen listen to A bit better I think it takes you forty five minutes to listen to it all back again. Yeah. Is Jenny quite happy at the moment she's going to I don't think she's much choice has she? She hasn't got much of a choice for what? Where Amy's going or you've got to go there and you think of the positive When's their they've had their open day or is there another one? Don't know. Thank you. Don't know quite what that was. I should think that was What? I should think they'll have another one nearer the end of term. Oh yes. people. She only has other people to her house. Well she only had a small party didn't she? Yes she's only got that small house. It's tiny Oh Amy you don't even like them. I am only looking at them. Come on eat up we want to get out. Quarter past two Not no nasty day. What does that say? No it's not a nasty day. It's a better day. No what that says? Oh those are those turtles. Pardon? Nintendo. Oh I thought it said no No there not there the turtles. Are they? Yes. What's Nintendo? It's a super mummy . Nintendo is like a pocket computer. Oh is it? Huh. You know better than those um ones that has got you know? They cost seventy pounds. Lucy's had her er What's that say? car. Sony. That's who makes it. Well he's got one like that. Hmm. Red. Hmm. Not the colour I would have chosen. I think I would have chosen black. Would you? Hmm. Mm. Out of the other ones white if there was I would have chosen white. I would have chosen red. Don't you like red? No not much. I like yellow that's my second favourite colour. Nice bright colour. my favourite's that That's a lovely pink isn't it? Mm. I like that pink I like peach as well That's a nice colour Everyone's got a favourite colour I wonder what daddy's is. Don't know really. Might be black. Ask him. Mummy that's like an Yes not with your mouth full Can I have another cutlet? That's your third. I know. So you'd like a film for your camera. Yes please. I should think that Mr Staton would put it in for you wouldn't he? Yeah. Um There's a competition for the best photograph Oh well you'd better take your camera then. Amy you can have that other little one if you like. Would you like that for your holiday? Yes please. I'd like it now for my . Hmm you may have that one. Pardon? You may have that one. Pardon? You can have that one. Are we having a boat rip around the needles? Hmm. I might take one of the needles. Well take a few photographs. Yes I mean don't forget. You're usually hopeless All right. I'll put it in my back pack. And take a photograph of everybody as you set off. Mr Staton always takes a group one so if you say just a minute I'd like one too. I'll get pictures of Mrs. just about to fall in the sea or something Just about what? And then Mr Staton asleep on the lake or something You'd be lucky to find one of Mr Statton asleep I don't think he's going to go to sleep while he's in charge of thirty of you. Then here you are just Is he in charge? He's in charge, yes. He's Head Master. What comes if someone's ill? I suppose there are bound to be a couple of people. I don't know. Maybe if you really are they'll send you home. On your own? No. One of the staff would have to come with you. Not that one of the that couple. Yeah You can't ring the doctors on the Isle of White. Oh if you have been really ill I should think the one's whose most vulnerable is Clare Montgomery. She's just had her operation. I'm surprised she's still going on it so soon after. She gets a cough. If by any chance she catches it off me she's going to have a really sore throat isn't she? I think she wants to go. I don't think anybody wants to be left behind. take more crisps. No I think you've had enough. Oh I've only had a few. I didn't have many did I? No. Don't know really. I'm quite looking forward to it. You know er you get your packet money each day and you can buy things. But I'm not over keen on nuts. Good fun . I think if Mr. Statton says you'll be so tired would you like to go and get your reading book and get a hanky and You get prizes afterwards so that er one had the best kept room and another one Can you get a hanky? Where have you come? About five are the best people to live with. You might get one from happiest. Happiest me? If I wake up with ear ache that's There isn't any? Aren't there? No. Is the box not in there or is the box empty? The box is empty. Is it? Hmm hmm. I'd better get another box. I'd better get some from Boots then I think. Yes because I've run out. Well you read a bit to Clare while I go and get the next. Next morning on the shore was so happy that he wanted to jump. All right come along Lindy he shouted. Let's explore. I'll race you to the stone wall To the stone wall by run as fast as I could one one but Lindy did not mind. Your legs are longer she said are you argon Aught Aught to win. Let's explore either the water said Bill. At first Lindy did not want to go over the wall. There might be wild animals on the other side Right let's she said. Come on then here's a hanky. I'm not afraid said Bill Boyd. I'm not afraid of anything Good big blow good big blow Can I have another puff Might be. Thank you. Girls are not afraid either said Lindy. Pardon me. When she come out after them. Once David got off off the wall There y'are they made the best discovery. Good girl. Of all there was a pond. It was a sa so big that it was almost a lake. Trees and bushes grew right down to the very edge of it. You could Friend's house . Pardon? I've got a friend's house on the back stand on the bank and No I've done that throw little stones into the water to make It's here rings and splashes You recorded it at Jenny's Oh I've done that one. Mummy! Yes. Good girl. Um what did they make their best discovery what's their best discovery? The pond I think. There was a pond. So what shall I do now Discovery . They made the best discovery of all. Hmm Where? Just leave it at the moment I'm trying to here if you can't If you can do it yourself do it but I'm trying to hear Amy read. It looks deep said Lindy. How deep deep do you think it is. It's deep deep It's deep enough enough to swim away It's deep enough to swim in in. Answered answered and deep enough for a boat if we had one. If we had a boat we could row across to the island of a picture for for a for a picture For a what do you think. Row across the island for a what might they have Pic Pic nic Picnic nic. Picnic I couldn't see where it was. Picnic. Yes. The island was a small one in the this has got a heart middle of the pond I couldn't find the right line that's why I did that. All right It had all trees on it and looked as if it had been made for picnics. Hmm hmm The children looked all along the bank to see if they could find a boat. Suddenly they heard a quiet noise I should think A quiet noise. Lindsy jumped with fright. Fright. What was that Bill? she whispered. Bill did not answer For a moment. He was frightened himself Though though though he did not want Lindy to know that they listened until they heard a noise again Then Bill laughed. Oh Lindy you were were You were Afraid he said. Girls are always afraid nothing Of nothing Girls afraid Girls are always afraid of nothing nothing. It was a It was only Only a only frogs. They must be at the end of the pond. Let us go and see then said Lindy. There might be some tadpoles too. The children went to on tip toe but the frogs stopped singing. Can I go can I go and play with tennis trainer? Yes if you like Where is she going to play Could you open my greenhouse and put it on that Where's she going to play going to play tennis? Can she she can't play it on her boat oh yes that thing. Hmm The water was warm and suddenly And shallow and shallow. There water lilies water lily? leaves spread Hmm hmm spread themselves like green plants on the water green plates Pardon? plates green plate. They're plants I thought A bit like No plate. Very like it. Like plants. Hmm. On the water and bog Mm good girl bog bog plants. Does that say plants? Grow along All along I forgot. I thought that was that word. Croak croak croak one frog began to croak all by himself. Others Hm hm Enjoyed Joined Join Others joined in in from all over the pond until they made a long chorus croak croak croak they are saying. A frog climbed on to a lily leaf quickly quite quite oh where am I? Quite close to Lindy and Bill. His eyes stuck out from his head like little squab knobs that's difficult. Knobs. It's a silent K. Knobs of I thought he was a squab knob Yes it's a bit difficult that one. It's a silent K you know like knees knobs. Cob knobs I said. Knobs. Start from where it says little knobs he Okay. He looked could look at the children over Although Although he were needed Although they were nearly Nearly behind him Were him Watch him. Watch him Lindy said Bill and see if you can see if you can see his Tongue tongue shoot out or Shoot out our Our teacher told us that frogs toot tongues tongues are stick sticky sticky at the ends. That is why they can catch flies so easily with them. How would you like to catch your dinner by putting out your tongue? I would I wouldn't I wouldn't like it at all answered. Why wouldn't she? Would you like to catch your dinner by putting your tongue out to catch it? No No Why? I wouldn't like it at all answered Lindy Lindy. But it must be nearly dinner time now. I do feel hungry. We better go home then said Bill but we shall come back here again. We may be able to find a boat next time. There. The apple orchard. Your reading's getting a lot better I think. You're doing very well. They are long chapters. I think that was quite enough. It's a long book. A hundred and twenty eight pages. I know Hmm What's that one? Well of course Miss MacDonald wouldn't have wouldn't mind you to keep a book for quite a long time. No. No it's all right. Right let me get cleared up and then we'll go into Bromley. You're going out with Clare? Let's just have a look at your erm camera. What do you need your money for? Nothing. Nothing. You haven't made your bed. I know. I haven't really had time. Neither of you have thrown either of your old hankie boxes away. Amy keeps getting mine out of the bin. Well erm throw them in the bin down outside erm you got a two hundred. Why why can you put it on different things? Well you can have different fims . I thought it might be easier to get you what you've got in already you've still got tea round your mouth and have you cleaned your teeth cause they weren't very clean um you could take Tom's midnight garden with you Oh you're not going in your earrings Oh mummy I never wear them otherwise. Well you won't wear them. You'll take them off. I don't think they're very suitable. They're for playing. What? They're for playing in. Not really suitable for come on throw your dirty empty tissue boxes away. Come on put your coat on then Amy. See if we're locked up. No. Mummy. What? wear the jackets with all the badges? Yes I should think so. Where is it? Do you want to wear that? I'm not sure. Can I wear this then? Erm No it wasn't Mum. It's not there. Is it in your bedroom? Pardon? Is it hanging up in your bedroom? I've looked Nice little purse. Yes it's a nice little purse. Don't break the coat hanger. I've got to take the purse to the Isle of White. cause to put your money in. You get two pounds a day . You can save it What on earth did you put in your pockets? Oh goodness knows. Well does it fit you? The arms are quite big but that doesn't matter I'm not sure that it's mildly clean. Pardon? I don't know that it's terribly clean. That's the Isle of White. Pardon? Badge. You've got the badge on the arm. Where? The Isle of White. Oh it fits you all right. Mm Din it? Oh you shouldn't do it right up at the top. Why? American? Yes I don't know go on. We seem to have a lot of dirty tissues and stuff. There not mine. Hmm I don't know whose they are. Have you got my hankies? Oh I've just thrown a whole load of screwed up ones out. Go and get a few more. Remind me we must get some handkies. Are you putting a coat on Clare or are you going like that? Let's hope we can find a parking space. Right. Is that everything. So you want a film and you want a back pack. And you want a I don't need a very big back pack because all it's got to carry is my It's got to carry your lunch hasn't it? My lunch and my camera. And a box and a Fits me doesn't it? If I put my camera in the front Come on. The coat does fit me. Yes it looks rather nice. You've got France on it as well. Pardon? France and you've got all your American ones. No France here. Well it says jeans and a jumper or trousers and a jumper. I mean it it well no it says thick trousers and a warm cardigan or a jumper. Erm I mean I should think you want to take some shorts in case it's warm do you. Yeah. You going to take your white trousers? Your new white ones? Are you going to wear those at the disco? Yes. Rather than your black ones? Yes. I thought you could probably take both. I don't think it's been very erm generous with out of school wear but you can change when you get back. I think you'd better take your Scots Park jumper and your red cardigan in case you manage to spill yes all your dinner down your Scotch Park jumper or something Yeah because you haven't got two. Well you've got that one that Daddy put on in the wash and washed too hot. Yeah I think we might have a job parking. Now the problem is going to be finding any where to park. He's just he's just got one a long way out though right looks as though we've either just missed one and they Oh no they are just coming aren't they?just missed one there There's one Oh just missed one Oh no he's he's going in. that car's going to be told off. It is No. Ah there's one can't see one any better can you? No. Not the not the easiest place to get into but still Aren't we close up? Yes we'll park can you? No. only stand by. This way where good job we've only got as minute. Pardon? I don't think I'll get daddy's in it No a bit bigger seems to me if we'd moved up a bit we would have had a bit more room. exactly. a large space here. Pardon? They haven't given me a very large space. It's probably why it's left. Right I think that Salisbury's is probably the best place for a back pack do you. Shall we go there first? Yes. Do you want a new washing bag and a salon to take with you or are you not bothered? Mm? I've got plenty. You can't take mine. You can't have Amy's. You've only got the one. What? Oh nothing. I just thought you'd like a new one. Oh right. In that case. All we've got to have is Well I certainly wouldn't bother taking any shampoo if you can't have a hair drier. Well Charlie'll have to so we can all wash our hair. Well Charlie's not going. Why is hers very long Yes She can sit on it can she? Yeah easily. It comes down to about here. Hmm. How often does Amy wash hers then? What How often does Amy wash Every day. Every day? Oh gosh. Oh careful. It's getting worse this road. Look at all this lot. Yes what it say about four hundred? It doesn't say anything. Right where two hundreds.. Three pounds twenty-six. Can we afford one of those? Hmm There's the one with the flash waterproof stretch. You were going to take on the ones we had last time. So they are all four hundreds. Hmm. You get long What? You get sort of extra long Hmm hmm they look quite big don't they?isn't it? Yeah those pictures. No they should be the same. Go through all the pictures. I should like that one. I think I should your Jenny's taking hers I should take your camera. Mmm I mean you've just got to be careful and not lose it haven't you? Lose what? Lose her camera. Why doesn't she take that yellow one? I thought you could have that. Do you think I'm well enough for my trip No. I think we've got quite fit. No it fits in a case. Yes. Yes. That's the one Green one? What other colours is there? There're aren't. I will take the yellow one I think. You've got the white one anyway. You'd rather have that than the you know Yes Does this tooth Mum does this toothbrush fold up? No it's in a case so you don't get Does the boys something . When you When you want some soap hmm Is there a toothbrush inside that Hmm thing? She wants her soap and some tissues Erm I don't think you need teenage mutant hero turtles. Why? Well you need more that those. What are those? Those could be hankies. Teenage mutant turtle hero hankies. Don't you think you would be better having a proper size size box? hankies. Mutant hero turtles? She won't Yeah. You won't if you get a cold. Shall I take two Well er tissues anyway. I think that tissue paper's thick. Unclear. Eighty-one p. Well I think, I don't think there'll be enough for you for a week. Er I should take a box Yes it will. You won't have all that much. Could I take this one? Yes all right. All right. Soap -camelia or rose? Which soap do you want? Camelia. What's camelia? Pink. That was the one I had. Orangey colour that one. I need this one because I lost it. I lent it to Bronwen. You want that one too? Yes Well it's o do you want a new flannel or anything particular? We need a new Have you got a soap box? Have ou got a box for your soap? No that's a dish she wants a box. Oh! Right. They're only a pound. They're a pound. Deary me! Yeah. Want that colour? Or a pink one or a blue one? One sort of flesh coloured. Bit expensive aren't they? Can make up one. Amy have you seen my head shawl? You haven't Oh yeah oh look. Those the ones as well. No they weren't the ones. Yeah they got bristles. Maybe you'd like one of those. this is a fish. That's the best one There's a fish one. Well I should think the pink one look er hairbands apparently. Come on then No Amy. Come on. Pardon? Buy one. Why can't we buy one Mum? Why can't we buy one? You're you're all right for a hair brush then are you? I'll take mine er Oh mummy! mummy! Yeah that's sure. Ah this is it. Mmm Bright red Oh there're good. I like the green one. White do you think? Yeah yeah. Right that will do I think. Right let's go and get this lot then. That's all you need isn't it? Go on then. Oh we've still got next week if you here we are. There's a queue here. You need anything else Hair conditioner Mummy. Well we've got some hair conditioner. Hair conditioner. Yes I don't think we need any more at the moment Oh I know what I want. I want some stuff for my nails. nail varnish No ah. Right right there's one here. There's a hankie When will Well Amy I'll get you one another day hey? We are just getting Clare what she needed to go away with. What's that? What's that? A soap box to put soap in. Otherwise everything will be tasting of soap. Aren't you ? No no no no no Amy Now yu can put them out if you like. You wanted a er thing for your from erm Smith's didn't you? Always on my mind Oh I don't Why that What that thing through the Let's have a look and see if there is some fruits or one Those are mine. What? That's where she got these from. This one is mine. Sorry. Happy Birthday. No I don't want happy birthday do you? Miss you. Oh yes well that's not very appropriate is it? Thank you. No happy birthday that says. I know. I'm looking for Let's see what that Oh that one there. No the big one. How much are these? Erm that one. Happy birthday. where did you get it from? There that would be Why do you think we'll have to have one like that? Well don't you think that's quite appropriate? Hmm. Hmm? With the ballet shoes? I'm cold. Now is that better? The ballet shoes are more appropriate don't you? Mm mm. She'll probably like that better. Ballet shoes. away Amy. I like that one. You like that one? Hmm. That's not funny Mum. No I don't like I like that one better. I like that. No that one's bigger. Pardon? That's got bigger. It's too expensive I should get her the ballet shoes cause it was a ballet dancing that would be very appropriate and I'll get her some flowers. Well why don't we give her flowers? 'Cause we've given her flowers. I think she'd like the ballet shoes. It was a ballet exam wasn't it? That's that card that Rhionna gave me. Yes. Can I have one of that card? Do they? No well they had quite a cheap way I think they had to pay for it all themselves. Well I don't think erm they had a lot of money. Take this one? No no you don't want a book to take with to read. Yes we are allowed to take Well yu can take your . You gonna Tom's midnight garden or anything? Or do you want to have look quick look. I will. I'm going to take something . Mind you don't Goodness me! terrible I know. No he wasn't they're being silly. Careful! No don't be silly Amy Do you think that'll be enough? Hmm Sure? Hmm. They're all the same. Aren't they? Yes. Yes. Eight sheets same as that. Hmm. I don't think you're gonna take more notes than that in a week do you? No. No. all right? Yeah That'll do you. I don't think you'll need anything else I think it's still going round Here you are hold that. It's still going. It's still going. I think all click Oh that was the sort of thing . Why won't you let me do that? Why won't you let me do it? That's quite a nice present isn't it? That is a pen. Yes. A cartridge pen. That's a ball point pen and that's a cartridge pen Mummy . This is only one pound ten p. Yes but you don't need another one of those. Well mummy mummy mummy. What? want one of these. You don't need one either. Well Clare's got lots. Well she could give you one of hers. Yes. Mum but I don't like Clare's. What you want a Tigger one? Pardon? You want a Tigger one do you? Mm Well what you going to put in it? But er I want What about that one? a nice one. Two twenty five two twenty five Those are more Tigger cartoons There're good. Hmm they're quite nice. because I need pencil cases. Mm. I've never had that before. Who were you thinking of giving it to? Clare? Hmm no I was just having a look. A bit more than we usually spend. my new pen. Mummy . Yes there's a few around though aren't there? Yes. Not one that I want though. Right. Oh dear. Thank you. Clare let's have your thing over here quickly. Just get that come there's no body Clare can I have that. No! That. You've got plenty of rubbish you can use one of the ones you've got You've got a cartridge inside. Right we'll get something. Well come on then Can I have five pence Mummy? Here Let's have a look. Are they washable. All right? That wasn't too long. You can get double. And she has double ones was for bigger ones. Right. We'll have to go and queue up then. Oh Clare! That's permanent that's permanent blue black. You haven't got the same. I want a blue washable as well. That's nice wrapping paper isn't it? Hmm. I don't like it at all that much. Pardon? I don't know that I like it all that much. Sorry. Yes yes she just clipped I like that's nicer with the teddy bear. Do you want to have a piece of that for Deborah? No I'm not buying any more. You have you have pinched I can You have got about ten pencil cases okay. I am not buying any more pencil cases. They are Amy's. I haven't got I haven't got I am not buying any more pencil cases. No you go and take it back. You've got a lot of pencil cases. Come on then Amy. You want to give that to Deborah? Hmm. Hmm? Ah You can take that tin that you got in er you can take that tin as a pencil case that you got pardon? What? You have got if you've got one. oh they've all got holes in them. Oh so I can throw them away can I? Yep. Well then why haven't you thrown them out? They've all got two of them. Well you should have shown me before. You you've throwed them away first before you buy any more Yes. Queen mother. Right come on then. Where was that last one? I think, umm we looked in Boots didn't we, they had cheap ones, but they were all black. Might like . Get one from Marks and take it back after wards. No, yes, I don't think I need chocolates, I don't think I need chocolates. I thought your going to give her some flowers? I like flowers. Oh they've definitely have some, I don't think there awfully cheap. I think erm, lets have a look in the shopping mall cos I think there's a sort of bag shop there Caroline said. Where'd you meet her? Just down here. . This is a nuisance this is. . I don't know otherwise. I thought Salisbury's would of had loads Will have a look in a Army & Navy otherwise It's in here I think, oh I don't know whether C & A's would have any Now then, watch out for, I mean I think there's must be a logic shop or something. I think that's where Caroline said we go for a cake. Oh here I should think where these banks are. Yeah. I mean there's loads of bags like that, let's have a look. It's all there've got. Here's back packs. Mum. No, no, she's got to have something that goes on here back. Oh it's a bit cheaper. Price six ninety nine I think. Where? Eight ninety nine. Well we've got . It's better isn't it? That one. Nine ninety nine. Like that one. Nine ninety nine. Yes, I quite like that one. school. Which one? That one. One like that has she? Yeah. Red one. . I think you better put them back where you found them don't you? Where'd they come from? They come from there. Where? Now that's more your that's more what you could . There's A there . That's what ah. That's more what you can do with poppet one like that. No,Clare like that one . Do we need any thing else?. No, not really. This is something quite nice. Oh it's pretty. That's four to six.. This is four to six. Yeah, they always do them very long don't they? Yeah. You could do more with a nine to ten, eh nine to twelve. This is quite long as well. That's three to four. Three to four. It's still too long for me. I should think this one's your size. Oh label . She like that Ooh. She like that one Amy? . . Hm, yeah. I don't mind. Well you could probably do with that more than hm trousers. You could probably do with a sun dress more than . Oh that one look's a bit to bit to tight doesn't it? No, haven't got any twelve's,with a twelve. Right, that doesn't really suit me does it? Right, let's go and get Amy's collage set that she wants. What? Did you say collage set? Hm, hm, hm . That what you want, your collage set? Army & Navy the bit of it and a that's all Then I'd like to look in Marks, Amy Early Learning. Early Learning have all these lovely things that you can play with. That's my . Hm Right let's see if we can . Early . Come on then,you. Yeah, cos it's called Early Learning Centre. Hm, hm, quick. Learning Centre. Then I want to go to Marks. . Hm, I was a bit disappointed with that dress. I wonder if it looked better if it was a bit bigger. Do you have . To tight . . What the orangey colours? Yeah, they don't . Oh I quite, I quite like those. I thought they were unusual. . I didn't think I like the cut of it very much or, I think it was to tight. There started making erm tighter I think. Oh Amy, sorry, wait. You don't push in. I think your getting a bit big for this . It used to yes left handed, Blue one. Oh. Can I have some? Why do you need some more? Yeah. Right, I suppose so.. Shall I go and pay for them . Amy. What time is it? Half past four, so I don't want to be too much longer. I don't know, is that what you want? Whoops I don't know. They won't be all for it, Amy is that what you want? Hm. . What's that. That's sewing. What do they give ya? How can you sew it? Well you give you the, this. What age? Can I pay for this? Well, will pay for them all together . . Are those the only two you get? Yes, I think so. Oh, you only get two. I don't like those two . Oh I don't know, but. Oh come poppet, because I want to go to Marks, so what do you think? One of these are . Can you only do one? No, you, you have to get some flowers in. So there, they give you the flowers. . heavy. They do it . No, they just give you a press to press the flowers. Is there only one? Hm. I thought you wanted the collage one. I know, I didn't know there were these. I like the . How many do they give you in there? Lots. I think you just get the pieces of square's and erm, the thing and the ribbon and you sew them. Sew it, but. Would you want to think about it? I don't think you need a jigsaw puzzle do you? Oh Amy come on. You have to do to that? Oh that's just, that's just erm, beads. There mostly there for children that are younger than you. Oh, I see it there, what's that. Do you have to write it? Oh, why don't you make what you've got cos you've got a lot of things to make at the moment, and then come back and choose another time, hm. Cos you've got sewing to do haven't you? You started that little duck. . Hm, your a bit too young to do knitting I think. Like to age on . You've got the flower making one haven't you?. Oh yes, I've . That isn't very easy is it? It's a . Hm. Hm. Colour . We don't really want to colour in a jigsaw puzzle do you? It's only colouring in. No, I make them fit. Yeah, well you got to have a, you've got to have some flowers and you just put them between that and leave them. You could build happy birthday card. Yes, but you've got to just leave the the thing, come on I think they want to close, and I want to get to Marks, so do you not really want the collage kit at the moment, you've got collage kit's haven't you? Hm. . Pardon. I have got a lot of collage. Yeah. Well leave it at the moment. . Hm, well you've got a, you've had a lot for your birthday haven't you? No,. Oh, we, no, I'm not just, come on let's find the scissors and the glue spreader. Do you want me to take a book, and then you can choose at home? Hm. Yes. Right, come on then let's have these and. Painting? That painting you haven't done yet have you? No,. No. . So you wanting to have a mooch, do you want to have a quick look at tennis rackets? Well I don't know whether were going to get one now, cos I haven't really got a lot of time. Oh , the cars are still coming, the cars are coming now, I forgot about them. . I forgot the cars were coming down the road. Got to go across to that Olympus, right shall we come on quickly. . I dunno, cos I forgot the road was open, huh. Ah, I think I like this one better don't you? Yeah. Twenty two pounds. I'll pay you back. Well I don't think we'll get one at the moment. I will pay you back, I promise, as soon as I get payed, I give you the money back. Well I don't think we can buy one quite as quickly as that. Why? Well, cos that's a lot of money just to spend isn't it? Is that a lot lighter than. Yeah . Is this, one like this? . Well if you don't do any thing else tomorrow, you could go and have a look in erm, Worpington. That shop there. Yeah,. Well I don't know, will see. Come on then Amy. . Think you have to clear that with dad first. Hm. It's my money. I know, but I want to see how much there worth, so there about, see if we can get one for less than twenty pounds can't you. Why, they get heavier. The heavier they are the . Oh right, let's go quickly across to Marks. Aren't supposed to do that. They look really nice those shoes. I don't like the colours. Mummy I don't really like those shoes. Don't you?. I don't like the colours there to dark. Yes, I thought they might be quite useful for the summer, they don't seem to have any erm . Do you like these . They do dark colours . Do you like these sort of doesn't it? I don't, these are nice colour, I like them. Yes, well I another pair . Pardon. You like these better? Yeah, there nice. There's a pair of fours. There's a pair of fours. You like those better Clare? Yeah. No. I do. No. No. What you like those better? I do. Don't you? Hm don't know really. There's a pair of fours. Take a pair of . Hm, quite like the white ones I think I probably like the white ones better Am's, let's have the white ones. Can you take that one off, cos that one . Well there's a pair of four, right, let me, let my ones that I've got. I didn't want the dark ones. No, I don't. There too dark. They did do them in white, but they don't seem to have them here, I only saw one pair, they weren't my size the other day. . Right, let's just have a look at this other dress. Daddy's stuck this on and it's not even right the way round. Stuck what on? His drove my car and the, where the gears where, came off. Who did? Daddy. Without a . He had . There are. You could of given me a little bit more room. . Well if that car in front has not pulled up quite so far this way, I would of got out a little more easily. . Ah. We've got a lovely . Yes, well he could of gone a bit further back, it wouldn't of mattered to him. . Any way, never mind, were out. Now I've got to turn around. I don't think I'm going to buy you any thing else or else this holiday's costing me a fortune. . I think you can manage with your thin anorak and probably your thick one. . Well that's right, I mean were see what the weather's like. . Before . . Oh yeah. . That'll have to be quite useful for your holiday in France and every thing ain't it? Yes. What on earth he . What a back pack? Don't that I was over impressed with Tammy Girl, were you? Hm. What's Tammy Girl? That shop that we went in when we had to go down stairs . Tammy Girl . Na, I think it's only girl's. What's Tammy Girl? That's the shop that . No, no. Oh yeah, I know . I think a lot of erm. . I think a lot of your age go there. Yeah, I think . Yeah. . I didn't like the stuff for, it's very garish, I mean I didn't like Amy's bathing costume very much, did you? No, but, you know,I like,. Yeah. But I quite like her shell suit, there quite nice colours. Yeah. There's a lot of those in C & A's. . Yeah. She keep . I doubt it. I should hope so, they were quite expensive, one pound sixty eight. Dear. How much were . I can't remember. My . Yes, there left handed ones, hm. I've taken one pair up to the tree house and now I can't find any up there. Oh. . Oh well I bought all these stupid bent ones, there not very . Aren't they? No, they don't hardly cut paper. They don't cut any thing else. Well I don't think those I'll cut any thing but paper, you'll have to get . Yes they do, they cut a lot of string . Well sellotape then. They cut oh they cut sellotape, and they does cut string. Well if you need another pair, next I go I'll get you a pair of. They cut string. Oh. I don't think they quite my other pair. What your silver ones? Yeah. Where'da get them from? Early Learning. And they cut something . Why have you lost something, you have?. No, don't worry. They don't seem to have silver ones. I bought two pairs. Yeah, don't lose. . Right. I've only got one pairs of steel. Oh you haven't, you've got lots of little silver ones. Can't find them. Oh, well, there around somewhere. . I know where there is some, in my collage . Collage box. Yeah. . Well, you don't need to leave a pair of scissors in there, cos. I was just thinking that the dinner's probably only just come on, I didn't quite know how long, how late we be huh. Nice cup of tea any way, do my ironing I suppose Shall I ask daddy to get me a label for my . Huh, you can try. Well you can do one with the erm, with the little thing. I don't need to take scissors or any thing . No, no. What about some . No, don't think, don't give you any of the. You got my erm. I think you'll need a coat hanger for that, oh, any down here. I'll go upstairs and get a coat hanger when you. Haven't got, I haven't got any. On the spare bedroom bed I should think there's some. Rfff, you pull. Aah, it's white isn't it? And wiggle it a bit. , you'll have to be able to do it or else you won't be able to clean your teeth. I think you'd better make your bed. . Hm.. It's in a mess my . If she don't put it, if you don't take it right down then it comes out. Oh does it? She just put it like that, but it's not . It's not, oh that's alright. Just say if she's soaked some stuff written on it. Yeah . Little fish in my erm thingys. Yeah. Cos that thing that normally sticks out the top. I don't it says you've got to have a cagoule. I it did. Hm. . It might say preferably. Right school sweatshirt, tee shirt, skirt, dress, casual trousers, jeans, warm jumper. Changes of underwear, socks, shoes, trainers, night dress, carpet sleepers, washing kit, towel, hair brush, cagoule shoulder bag. Cagoule and a shoulder bag. No,I, I think they . Cagoule . I think they mean a back pack, warm jacket or coat, in-expensive camera and film I think they mean a back pack. You could of had a shoulder bag. What's that?. Well, one that goes on your shoulder . They won't mind a will they? No, I think that's what they told you to take Oh, how often you expect me to write to you. Why? You've got to take some stamps. If I send one to grandma, one to you and Amy, and then I'll write one to grandma Lincolnshire, but I'll won't send it off, it'll be to expensive won't it? Send it off here couldn't you? If I send one to grandma and granddad, if I send one to you then send to . Yes, that's alright. So it'll be a, take about five .. If you wish . There will be . I don't need, look. No, mummy, I'll give look I . Tidy it up then please. . Right, I think I'll shall do some. .. Yes, I'll shall put it on the spare bedroom bed, not that there's a lot of room on there, but still. I think you've just cost me a fortune today. Have I? Take one of those boxes of tissues and use tooth brush, tooth paste. What, got some soap have you? Yes, yeah. Right, your tooth paste. Thank you. Right, these two can go up, oh that's Amy's soap. Bored with it, so I'll it out every day. Yes, right. There's your film. Ah thanks. Right . That's mine?. Yeah. Oh right. There's your cartridges. Do I need to take both packets? I wouldn't think so, I can't think you'll get through ten cartridges myself, that seems rather excessive. We can probably leave packing till next weekend can't we? We can probably leave packing until next week end.. . Well I'll should take, I mean hopefully you won't have a cold. What? I should take a couple with you out of your box and erm, just take those ones. I mean I hope you won't have a cold, so you shouldn't do. Hey, come on what's the matter? . Well, alright, well look it's no good doing it if your just going to get upset. What's the matter? Well I can't leave it like this can I? Shhhh, well look, that's very difficult to put on isn't it. Yes, but when I put some back,back packed. Well then your better putting it back to the back place first. there as well. Right, now you want to put that on again. I know. It's alright, cos it's very, that's very difficult . I can do that holding the edge actually, have to hold the tall side. Right, put them in the, doesn't even fit on very well. Oh no,. I can't see what I'm doing even. I mean that's a silly place to put it Amy. I can't find any where else to put it . Well why don't you put it on the table or on the little table, it doesn't even fit on that shelf, does it? It's too big. You can't really have that and these plates on that shelf. Oh ok, I'll have it on the little table, but I want you to do it, not me. Alright, well. It's always falling . On the little table it'll fit, and you can put the cups . That's what I said . Cups and saucers on, well you can do that, look you can do that better than I can. Here you are, there, it's on the little table, now you put the cups and saucers on it. Ok, it doesn't matter they can stay . Go on, you can do those better than I can. That, that goes in the middle. There, but your trying to balance something that won't even balance properly. Where's the other cup? I don't know, have a look in the kitchen, can't really see. So is, your dolls house is alright now, mind the flex on the iron. You shouldn't go that way, knock my iron off. So your happy. Mum . Where are your what?. Oh we took them all upstairs. Pardon. . What your birthday presents, yes. Pardon. Your birthday presents are up stairs on your new shelves aren't they? I know, I . I must go through the spare bedroom and sort that out as well. Why? Do I have too? No I must, cos there's some of your stuff. I'm not, I've just tidied up my dolls house. I see , jolly good. . Well that's cos he moved it wasn't it? Yeah. Bit of a problem, that made me cry didn't it? That did make you cry, yes. . It did. . But still if you, you, otherwise when it's tidy you just leave it alone. Pardon. When it's tidy, you don't play with it . I've stopped my traffic. You've stop the traffic have you? Pardon. Oh. Yes, it was at the back of the cupboard I think, I think I've seen it in there . That's where I've . It's, pardon. I think I have seen it in there. Why didn't you bring it? Well, will, put it, put it into be washed tonight and then you can use it if you like. Hm. Alright. . Yeah. She's awake, yes it's alright I'll read a chapter to myself,. Yeah. . I'm not gonna play . Oh alright, you tell me if there's any words you don't know does that say . Sure. . Yes. I thought it were fair, but I read the next bit What's this one? One day it's discovered the pond. One day then they discovered the old apple orchard, what does that mean? It stretched. Stretched right down . . . Does that say being? Behind. Oh . Oh gosh . . Chaffinch. Little bird, it's a little bird. That's a difficult word. . Hm. . Yeah, well brightening up a bit Right, we'll go and home some lunch, dinner then shall we? Let's just finished yet. Pardon. . Pink. . Goes on a long time does it? five, six, seven, eight, nine. Oh that sounds a lot. Right come on then I'll get you some dinner. . Right, would you, could you switch that off for me. Haven't yet. No the television poppet, I'll sort the oven out. Right if you sent the table, I'll serve up the dinner. Ok mum. Right . Give Clare a shout, get my washing in as well. Clare. Yeah. Dinner time. Ok. Well that was very quick. Right, I'm hungry too. Wash my hands . Right I used to get . Yes, that's right, no, that's right, very good . That's right for Clare. Yes, that's right for Clare. I don't know what time daddies coming in. Pardon. I don't know what time daddies gonna come . His not going to get any food. Well I was going to put him some dinner out and he'll have to heat it up again I think. You can't put him knives and forks out. No, well, he can get some out I think if he wants some. I think I'll get the knives and forks out . Well I've no id I wouldn't bother. I mean I don't know when he's, he might not be in for another two or three hours, I don't, I really don't know. I might find I've cooked him a dinner and he doesn't want it. Bit difficult isn't it? So you don't have to. Well I've cooked him one, cos it's no good if he waltzes in in half an hour and says his hungry. He could baked potato. He could have a baked potato, I don't think he would have had very much all day knowing. I don't think there's much food available where it, in this building site. What's he having? Well making, given him the same as us. We'd give him a . Hm. Leave it, what do you do .. Well I'll leave it out and he can do it on the microwave can't he? Heat it up in the microwave otherwise he'll have to have it tomorrow. . Only goes up to a certain height. Here, about up to here now. Oh that's it the way it spreads out and then you can't see it.. Do you take the back pack round with you these day. Yes. What you finished your work have you? Not all of it. Nearly or yes you have. Nearly . Got . Did you manage that one radius of a circle? I . What can choose choice oh you do them from that paper you mean . No, we've got two tests . And I did, I've done one test and I'll do the other one tomorrow. Right, well don't forget. Ouch. I'm sorry it is a bit hot, they've got hula hoops in there. Yeah. now. Sshhh don't shout. and I . . Yes, alright but. with it. Well couldn't, could she, could she just go back one page and let's us see what it was she wants. It wasn't one page . I want . I think I've got listen I really don't think you need argue over it. . No . No. Stop it, I've got two now stop it. Taken it away from me. Goodness me, are you both so young that you can't even share any thing? I would have thought you both grown out of those things any way. . There, that's good. That's play mobile. We didn't actually have much play mobile when I, when I went and looked. We haven't got all that, we haven't got that. You don't play with your play mobile. Think just like looking. The boat, you can't use it much because erm they every thing, they don't give you any thing do they? And they don't give you any singles. No. Do they? No. And I have to down the water. You'd better write one to Christine as well. . Uhum that little Polly Pocket. Oh yeah. And those . Don't forget. Flower making. that's a good page cos there's the collage . I've never heard the enormous crocodile. I've never heard it but . I've never heard it, I don't know what happens. What happens Clare? . story. Did they? Hm. i thought they don't. There's the play bus jigsaw. It's a bit like it isn't it? Oh yes it is, yes. Play bus. Right, there's your Noah's Ark one. I know it and that says it has all the right people in it hasn't it, it's got wobba. Womble. Womble. Hm, Womble. It's a clown. That little person. Oh. The wobbler. Womble is like a clown, Womble. You don't know the play bus people very well do you? No I don't. one, Humpty Dumpty . Oh can't read that, off to school. Hey Diddle Diddle, Teddy Bear Tales. Got a lot of bell ones. No, I've only got one. . when you blow it. . Hm, they didn't have my naughty little sister. No, they wouldn't of had it. You haven't listen to that much. Oh no. What? . . On your little window sill I think. Is it? I think so. We have got that one. What at school? No at home. Who has? . I, we've got that one like that here. Yes we have. One like it, not exactly like it, was Blue, like it. Have you seen that with a microphone? Hm. Good isn't it? N o t h e r s o n y . Sony. What's Sony mean mean? You make. Make. Hm. My first my first Sony. Hm. I think it's a tape recorder I think. . I like that one . Hm. What does that do? It takes play. Can you pretend to play? I don't know what it does actually. sound . Do you put sounds on the tape? You've got tapes, put sounds on it. Oh no, only noises and things. Oh. . Be the percussion instrument or animal noises to accompany tape being played, the animals sound like are delightful to young ears while the percussion band will appeal to older children who wish to begin beating time more acc- accurately. Hm. Hm that sounds quite good . Quite good . I could do were both starving, I've finished mine. I wasn't starving. I was What times daddy coming home? I don't know. . I would hope he won't be to late or he'll be exhausted. Mummy, what we got stuck to the cleaner we've got that. Hm. We've got one of those at school but it had a bus on it. Oh.. Kathleen got that one. Has she? Great Britains' . Yeah, but she hasn't got the flags. Oh. Deborah's got one with the flags when me and Deborah tried to do them once, we couldn't do it. It was so hard. . That was good. . There good aren't they? Hm, remember that one. Pardon. I remember that one. What? Hm, that one. Oh yeah, with still got that one . Yes you might have . Yes, we have somewhere . We had it in the tree house. Oh did you? . That's a good one isn't it? That's a good counting one isn't it, it helps you count. Can I have another . Only up to ten Two, one. Amy can you get on with your dinner . . . Yes... That's Postman pat. Yeah. Jigsaw puzzle. Then they start jigsaw puzzle . seen it? No. Must clean your things . That . All the books Noah's Ark. . The jolly postman. The story of a digger. Old Mac Donald had a farm. It must be a song what. Cheers a happy pig. Can you change Marks & Spencers vouchers into erm cash? No. Can't you? No. Won't they take them back? No. Why? I thought they would. Don't no. Why wouldn't they? Don't know, got vouchers you've got to buy something with it, but that's not usually a great problem. Pardon. Not usually any great problem Just eat this. Right. .. Some what more than I was expecting to pay, but. What nine ninety nine for the .. I was thinking more of five pounds. Five pounds, you wouldn't get a very good back pack for five pounds. That was my. Didn't know we wanted a very good back pack. What was my . Wouldn't of been more than five.. Got that at the Isle of Wight didn't we? Take it back,to go back to . Well . Huh, which boys? . Hey you plonk it down, what's in there that klonks? . . We have peeled what off mummy? What is a pack? something. Solid shape box. Aah it's you will be careful, that will break. washing bag. Yeah. Hm, that's what's clonking. This will do with my cartridges. Get another box of my cartridges. There's nothing wrong with one of your pencils here. No, suppose not. Oh honestly.. No, come on .. Hm, hm, hm, hm, hm, hm. . What's the matter? I said I remember . Oh right, every bodies . Oh very good. Is that better, feel better now? Hm. How much pocket money do we get a day then? I don't know. Two pounds I think she said. Well it was going to be a pound wasn't it, not two pounds that will be an awful lot. No it was two pounds she said. .. She'll deal it out, you know, but, if were going to Alan Bay she'll give us enough money for a a sand thing,. What's the matter? It's a long time till I was hungry wasn't it? . just going to Palace Brook Castle, she's not really sure she might just give us a pound for erm. She won't give you so much. No. Well, you'll all have the same so, I don't know any of them get's any ice cream . . . At least I can buy one. You don't want to spend your money on a ice cream. . Well it's probably the best way, then your all in the same dish. Yeah. You can see the difference when you go on the trip, some people are . So what did she say? hardly any. So it's not very fair is it? So the got this huge I want that, I always haven't got any money, don't they, s'not really fair. Ricky got told off. Erm Ricky erm, what do you do first, Ricky. Oh Ricky, oh well Ricky's always getting told off . By what? He took a couple of I've just remembered this erm, he took ten pounds to you know the museum or somewhere. . . He thought. . Yeah, that must of been it. He bought a mug, no. What. Mug with a museum picture on it and he bought about ten post cards,when got back to school. Why? She what? Told him off. Why? It probably wasn't his fault. His mother shouldn't of sent him with so much money. He said it was his money. His going . Don't think he lives with his mother. Cos she's, cos she's. Do him good. Not quite sure what, he says erm, he was protected by Social Security, and it, and then they . What's it mean by protected?. It means protect them. So Ricky has now left. Is he going . School, but he's still going on this trip. Oh his left . Oh. Yeah. What you just. Michelle Bond isn't there any more is she? I don't know, she hasn't been at school. Has she left? I don't know, Jenny said she thought she'd left. no one 's heard any thing about it. Well, I'm pretty su- . Maybe she hasn't told her best friend that she was leaving. I'm pretty sure that Matthew Paynes is still there. Oh yes, I think so. I've seen him, and I don't know why Michelle's moving, without his brother. Michelle's, oh right, it's a different Michelle, no. Michelle Bond, Lee Bond's sister. Oh yeah she has left cos Lee's left, haven't they? Cos they crossed him off the list register now. Have you? Yes, I have, Mrs MacDonald has . .. His been crossed off for ever,. He hasn't and his name, his name of his house is his name is for sale. . He erm, he left school, he only told them the day before. Who? , do what his mum had phoned in about it. . By the way, they won't be coming to school any more, when from next term. No tomorrow. . It was a couple of days notice and they weren't to pleased about it. And I'm sure that spoon What I want is a me Catherine and ,keep away from Matthew we don't like him, his a mossy old boots. His bossy, his. His a terrible, so we didn't go near him right through on the playing field, and then Katherine, I found to get, I sat, found a way to get them near Matthew and then Katherine said , I tickled him on the back, and I'd kept on doing that.. I don't think we need to make any more buns yet. Hm. No, I think that'll last you a little while. We'll make a cake though, like we do on Sunday. Alright. Yeah. Ok. What kind of cake, chocolate? Hm, if you want. I would like normal. Oh we always have normal. Erm, then, coffee. Oh I don't like chocolate. Don't you? Not as much as a normal or coffee. I've brought some stuff to make a lemon cheesecake, cos lemon's were reduced. Hm, I'll make that for you then . Yes. A lemon cheesecake. I won't eat it but, any way. Don't you like it? I don't like it. Simply adore that one, chocolate bun, strawberry moose. Haven't made one of those for ages. No, I love strawberry moose, that's delicious. Then it first it's strawberry moose, then it's erm lemon cheesecake, then it's chocolate biscuit cake. Oh, I don't know my order, I don't. What d'you like best mummy? Oh I don't know. I'm not sure what I like best, I seem to like quite a bit. A lemon cheesecake , bun, strawberry moose. Hm. The trouble with strawberry moose is, it takes ages to make doesn't it? I like strawberry moose's . Beat it for ten minutes, that's it seems an awfully long time to just stand there and. Oh. Can't you beat it with the erm. Hm, for ten minutes. I'll do that. It's worth it strawberry moose. Over the gas. Over the gas? Hm, you have to beat it in a pan of boiling water. What, just beat? The egg yolks and the strawberries and the sugar. Oh, there lovely mixture, to watching boiling water. Hm, trouble is it tends to come over the top of the bowl.. Ah. . I didn't know you put them, glass on gas. No you don't, you put the saucepan with some water in it, you boil that and put the bowl mixture in in the saucepan. Oh right. Your just boiling water round the outside. Hm, yeah. What d'ya mean by put water on for boiling water? You put your pan with some boiling water in and then you put the bowl with all the stuff in on top. I just thought it was grass. In the pan . No, glass. Oh glass, I thought you said grass,. What happens if you put boiling water on glass? Nothing, depends what sort of glass it is. If you pour boiling water on ordinary glass it will probably crack. What, what's on there the glass . Yes. If you fill a milk bottle with boiling water I would think it would crack, might do. And a cup? Pyrex is alright. What's Pyrex? That's my bowls are made off. Is that real glass or is it? I don't know what they do to it, but it's a stand the temperature much better. Is it still glass? Pyrex. It's glass of a sort, but I don't know what, I don't know what they do to make it much more heat resistant, you can put it in the oven. Can you? Oh yeah, that casserole tops Pyrex. Is it? I thought that was plastic. If that was plastic it would melt. No. In the oven. Well what you put in the oven ? You can't stick it in the oven that's plastic. Nothing! The oven is made of plastic. No it's not, it's made of glass and metal. Oh. It's not made of plastic. Oh Clare. Oh Amy, what. Oh don't really Gemma. Oh she's ever so slow tonight. I don't want to . What's one of them? A cake. What's that Is one of those. A cake . Yes your exceedingly slow tonight, even slower than usual. Don't pull a face. I'm not. I'll give you who's not . I'm not ok .. Your not going to get a cup of tea, I gonna drop it. pet. My first animal was a . Come on it's ten past it's late. Hm it's not late. It's not late at all. Yes, it's your bed time. Oh. Leave it alone, put it down. Put it down there, it's very naughty of you to lift it up.. . Well what have you done to it? Nothing. Uhuh, hm. I copy you. Who's that. Oh yes I do So what are we doing tomorrow? Going to Pelgrin's Way. No we are not, we've been to Pelgrin's Way. No we haven't. Yes we have. The other one, Tunbridge Wells, that one. I think a lot depends on what the days like. It's going to be a nice day isn't it? Depends on what daddies doing . Don't you want to go to Chimneys? Why?. Feed the jolly donkeys. . Feed the stupid donkeys . what's it? erm what's the telly, what's a. Well if your a little more explicit. What's it called the,they bought this pig medicine pig retained there trotters and every thing and then it goes any more of the erm dialysis put it, make a pig rock and roll. If it doses it's feed. Yeah, make a pig rock and roll. Then he said the old bat needs . Very nice. Erm, there's a, at the back of that Royalty and Empire magazine, you know it was telling you about Madame Tussaud's and the London Palladium, somewhere that the wax works that do all the rock and roll the,. Seen that . Have you? Yeah . You've seen it or you've been there? No, I've been there. Have you, where'd you go there? We went to Madame Tussaud's. We've got this on . Oh yes, said erm,, cos they've got Dolly Parton. Hm. Erm. That was just a little bit of it. Elvis Presley, Beatles, they've got everything, well. They've just done one of Kylie Minogue. Yes, yes.. . No, I don't know what that's like, I think they play with music as well. Yes, I've heard all the music, it's drop for a couple of seconds and . They do lady shows at the monetarium Do they? Hm, in the evenings. What, outside? No, inside. big dome. Postman Pat. Can you it? Chris said it's quite good. Chris? Chris Ellis. There's so many Chris's. Yeah, well the Chemistry one. That's . Where's R? Somewhere. A, B. R, there, what's that? Oh thank you. Do you think till midnight? I don't know. Be jolly tired if he is. No he won't be up to midnight if he hasn't got the car and the last train goes before then. You should drive up and get him. I wouldn't. Wouldn't you? No, not at that time of night. Ha, ha. Would you do it? I don't know, I'll worry about that when it happens. Hm, hm. If I have to drive up then you've all got to come. Your not waiting till you've been up to London. I expect somebody might of given him a lift up, I don't know. Six o'clock this morning I wasn't really asking a lot of questions. No. The icing didn't turn out what it might have done. Huh. Quite good English, the icing didn't turn out as it might have done, can't have what it might have done. Mummy . In what way did it not turn out as you expect it. Well the icing. Well it's to runny. No, I mean, the colour. I told you, you don't get red. Don't you. No, no, that, the only way you can get red is that there is a little pot in there . look it says scarlet. I no, but it doesn't come out scarlet,how much you need. Hey, there isn't any other magazines, there not there. What maga- oh no there aren't. Haven't got any other Early Learning Centre ones. You had them. Well I use to have, but I threw them away cos you don't really need two . Oh mummy . Oh I'm sorry. I didn't know you were so interested in them. You hadn't looked at them. I want to look at them . Your gonna have to choose something for Mrs Macdonald's baby. Hm. When's the baby . It's a long time off it's in August. Yes, she's leaving in three weeks before the end of term. Is she? What the end of the year? The end of this term. Oh right, that is the end of the year isn't it? Then Mrs Pitiful will be back. She'll be back next term. I won't see her again. No, no. She was nice. Oh I expect you will. I've never had her. No I don't think you will do. She was nice wasn't she mummy? Hm. I've never me her,. I was a bit disappointed in those Laura Ashley dresses, they were to tight for a start. They've gone they've gone more skimpy cos they fit last year. What d'ya mean there've gone more skimpy. Well they haven't made them so big. Oh. This year I would of liked Mr Stedlock. Would you? Would you rather have Mrs Macdonald? I like musical rabbit, before I had music rabbit. Nine, nine, Little rabbit is very sleepy, peel the and watch his, as he, what does that say? Watch as he rubs . Rubs . Rubs his eyes, yawns, and moves his ears and legs to the music, colours make V A Make varied is it? Colours what vary, yeah. Varies, as birthday, birth twenty four months. His birthday. Little rabbit . The birth his birthday was twenty four months, that means from when you can buy it for a new born baby or somebody up to two years old, will be suitable for it. Right, so it wouldn't be suitable for me. Not really, I don't think you need a bunny by the side of your cot now, do you? No. Haven't got one. Ow haven't got a cot. Little bear is very hungry, pull the string and watch his watch as he licks the honey from the jar And moves his ears and legs to the music. . Do you need your hanky? I quite like this bunny, he can't lick his lips. Here you are . So how. Looks as though his yawning to me. No, that one. Oh, that one looks like a teddy bear not a bunny. They say it's the one lollipop goes up . It is, but he goes . Oh. It says that . How much is that? Licks his lips. Five pounds. Oh, hey. No they aren't, there four pounds ninety nine. It's only a penny of five pounds isn't it? Yes. . There quite nice aren't they, you can hang them on your cot that's good. You can buy one of those for Mrs Macdonald if you wanted. Yeah, but she might have already buy one for her won't she. Well if you get it from there she can always take them back. that. I what? Oh that looks bit expensive. Uh, sorry. eight pounds something. Hm . Eight pounds ninety nine, nearly ten , nine pounds. Pardon. Her husband's a lot older than she is. Yeah. Why have you seen him? Has he been in? No. He hasn't. He's at the . At the summer fair last year. Yeah. Don't you remember? Yeah, two scruffies. I think Mrs Webb's husband looks quite nice. . Mummy, guess what do you have to do with this?. . Oh I don't think so, no.. It's not, not as coarse. It's got a short . Oh no, I don't think I'm inclined to buy one of them, ten, eleven pounds ninety nine. quite expensive. . . You will do in the Isle of Wight. Hm, hm. Wonder who's after the . Well, I should think you'll have Mrs Webb again. Why? Will she take the girls and take the . Hm, I'll expect the other friends will take something . Oh that'll be good, give her that. I would think if she think's she's gonna be a bit nervous then I'll get . That's sixteen pounds ninety nine. I'm not spending that amount my poppet. Oh sorry. Seventeen pounds or. . No, sixteen.. No, I don't think I'll give her my . You can make me a lemon cheesecake if you like after tea. Now. Alright. Can I make one tomorrow? Oh no,. Well we won't be able to eat it then, it takes over night to set. Eat it Monday Hm. Eat it Monday night or make it tomorrow. Well I thought if you make it tonight we could have it over the weekend. Er, yeah, I'll make it make it now. How long will it take? Not very. Ten minutes? About the same as the cakes? Takes less than the cakes. Oh, what you need is oh. How much is it?. Need biscuit in it . . . One pound ninety nine, a tale of Beartrix Potter. That's a game I think. Oh, that's one pound ninety nine. Grandma thought she might get you . Ah, thank you. You told me that. Hm. What do you think it'll be a boy or. I don't know. What would you prefer asking for a boy or a girl? What Mrs Macdonald? Yeah, yeah. . Which did you want? Oh I wanted a girl. Did you? What did daddy want?. I don't know. He probably would of liked a boy, it would of mean quite nice to have a boy and a girl, girl or a boy, one of each it would of been more expensive, couldn't pass the clothes down. Mum he would, he would cos it's not very fair on him because he hasn't got a boy and were both girls. He'd love to go to football matches. going slow, so I don't think I ought to of done . Could I tell her right. boys. I'd quite like a boy then a girl. I'd just have one, I'd have a girl there easier . . Well they're probably are for mummies. Probably are for daddies as well. I doubt it. Why? Well, it's easier to bring up one, one like you while your more understanding or something. What, so you know what little girls like and. Seem to, yeah . I wouldn't like as many as Daniel's. What, no, no, oh, mean you . Got about sixty . Can't go out very far if you've got to take six people. No . . Eh, I gonna take about four or five when I've left school. . Four or five when you've left school? I want six children, think four of them have left school. They haven't. Why? There was two younger than Daniel, so has Daniel left school?. . Ok twins left school. No they haven't. They have now. Amy's is still at school, so that's four I can think of still at school. Who? . Yes, well, well then the others. Hm. Hannah, one I don't know her name, she's got black hair . Amy , Olivia, Pat, Amy, Daniel, Seth and the baby. Yes, and there've got another one with fuzzy hair, don't know there names. Well that was six, seven. Oh I don't . at school she thinks she's just left. They weren't too pleased about it, so they kicked her out the house I think. I think so she Daniel said she's not living with them any more. Probably . Yeah. What's them?. Hm, hm . Erm. . Open probably. Oh don't stop that lot. Two pounds . . One pound. . Put some cherries there.. I don't know, I've never been. . Hm I hm hm Go and get the rest of my washing in, it's quite dull . It's expensive . Shall I make my bed first?. I think Hey Tiddle, Tiddle be quite nice, that's one pound ninety nine, Hey Diddle, Diddle. What is it a tape? Yeah. Oh. For a little baby. Oh no, they won't have a tape recorder will they? I don't know. There's a book what be quite good, Sooty. Hm quite hard, Alfie and Bunny Rooms. Can't you sleep little bear. Can't you sleep little bear. There's a happy pig. Now I'm not to good. Oh Spot, yeah Spot, goes for little babies. Spot goes to the farm, that's number F. Letter F. Number Ace one, two, Oh, one, two. Don't think you'll really buy new born babies a book not quite . Why can't we? Perhaps have a look in Marks and see whether they've got any nice baby clothes, she might like something like that. Well we don't know how big she is. Well she won't be very big to begin with, if we get white it won't matter if it's a boy or a girl will it? Well then, will have to see what they've got. She doesn't know what it is. No. So what does it ? Well then you'll buy white, so it doesn't matter does it? Why doesn't it? Well you can always put babies in white, whatever sex they are. Why? Doesn't matter whether whether it's a boy or a girl.. Why don't you buy some trousers? Then it doesn't matter, girls can wear trousers can't they? Yes. White trousers. Eh I don't think I'd should able to do that, choose before. It's hard isn't it to decide? It is hard to decide isn't it? No I should put your anorak on cos it's getting cooler. Oh, alright. I wouldn't be out too long cos, it. Do what? Well you tend to cough don't you? Hm. I'd really rather you wo- got a bit better. Is that . Pardon. Are you going to put your anorak on? No I'm not going to . What you going, oh, oh I see . . I sh- think you've only got to leave it till it's melted, has it melted? Yeah. Oh well switch it off then. . Well I've turned it down and then it blew out, there, right. .. Now be careful. It's difficult. Oh, well, I mean I really didn't need this at the moment with daddy coming in and everything.. Well can you put that that tine of biscuits away. Oh I know how to do that, I . Cos I don't want it all over the floor. Can I have a little go now? Well I should let Clare do this it's not very easy. Oh Clare promised me I cooked one. Quick go but you won't be able to do it . Go on then. . You've got to press it hard. What've you been doing today then? Shopping. There you are, think you can pour it? Poppet come here let me finish this, oh your getting in no end of a mess. It's not very easy. Well, no, no, no Amy. Want another biscuit. I know well I don't, go and get a cloth and clear up the mess that you've made. We haven't got all of them. So you've been shopping what else? Been round to Jenny's. . . Come on Clare could you do that? and then you can go and get your stuff in from outside. What have you been doing today? I thought you done that. No I haven't done that. You said I could . Well, well then you'd better go and get some of you took it out. Put your shoes on then. . What you been doing at Jenny's? Well it's Lucy's birthday so. Oh. I took the present round, and had a cup of coffee. She's . don't put it on the Amy. I know,. Manage the garden . No it was last week. You done it? No, look, I, I don't really feel like doing this at the moment. But you said you've got to make cheesecake tonight. You did but . But when it comes down to it you can't do it can you? You said we could. . I'll get the margarine ready. I've done the margarine, you you can get me the erm thing . Where's the margarine?. It's in here, it's melted, you've just watched it melt. . Can you get me the flan tin down there .. Yes thank you. Do you want the bigger one? No that one will do . Yeah and it causes me more washing up which I've only just finished. Why do you have to turn to the other side, why can't you have it up the middle.. Pardon. Why haven't you got it on the . Well, then I'll boil that side won't I? with all the cuts, right, mix that round if you like. Yeah. Now don't spill it every where. after her. I don't think you can both stir it at the same time. Amy.. Oh come on, you can't both stir it, I'm going to get very cross, I'm too tired for this. . Now let Clare stir it for a bit and then let Amy have a turn, but don't slop it every where, or else you won't have a. What've you been doing all day today?. Well we've been, I mean we were at Jenny's for a while, I went to the bank and eh, then we've been into Bromley all afternoon. . Shopping. What? Well stuff for Clare for the Isle of Wight really. . She needed a back pack and she needed some soap and a tooth travelling tooth brush, eh, yes that looks alright, knock knock it of the. Can you get me a spoon please. . Eh a knife I think. Pardon. A knife I think. . I'll do it That's about all really, nothing very exciting, I mean we were probably at Jenny's an hour. . Erm, there's a sort of shop in the mall that sort of sells, oh it, it does key cutting and heeling and stuff, we got one from there in the end. We had a look in Salisbury's but she didn't like any of them there. There so expensive. Now what shall we do? You can wash the erm, the beaters, and you can put the cream next to the other bowl and I'll mix them altogether when I've got the lemon juice in. . in my hair. Oh Clare you have, tt. I thought I'd . tt oh. Go on put the cream down, you don't wonder around with that. Put it down here. Oh come on. I didn't mean to. Well, would you like to wash and dry your hair? Oh come on I'm tired . Look what's Clare done . Sorry. Right. . Right, well would you like to go up and run Amy a bath then please, cos I haven't got this finished and. What's this? Oh my dress I need to shorten it. Look! Clare you were asked to run a bath that doesn't mean to say you go across the landing six times, just run her a bath and Amy will you get in it and then come down Clare. I know,. I'm tired and I don't want to cope with you, otherwise you both go to bed this minute. What did you say? I said you run her a bath. I am . And then , well why is you clumpering across the landing six or seven times? Why all the screams? I'm tired. screaming. Well just run her a bath and then come down. If you don't, you go to bed. Alright, here you are. Mummy. What? Do you go up to half term and . What's half term? Well your on half term now aren't you? Oh, well I can't just have lots of terms, half terms, cos the next one half term. Half what?. And then there's a lot more. What are you talking about? You have a term and then in a middle of the term you have a half term don't you? Then you have a nice place. Well. Go home. Well I don't know whether you go home from boarding school, you probably just have a day off, I don't know, I haven't been to boarding school. Right, were do we get, sharp words . The spider affair as it was called went all over the school before the day was out, it caused a great deal of laughter. When mother,Mams Arougeaye heard of it she sneered. To think that a French woman should be so foolish she said, though I didn't like spiders or earwigs or moths or even snakes. Mams Audyponch should be ashamed to make her exhibition of herself. The first form talked about it more than any one else, of course they squealed with laughter when they saw the poor Mary Lou Manselle and Gwendoline, all falling victims to the same spider, jolly clever spider said Irene, it means the only three people in the form that it that would be scared of it, I take my hat off to that spider, can't think why it chose my desk said Mary Lou, no, that was a shame said Gwendoline, poor Mary Lou it must of been an awful shock for you when you saw it, I wonder who put it there? There was a silence for the first time it occurred to first form that the spider might of been put there on purpose, they looked at one another. It was a dirty trick to put it into to poor Mary Lou's desk said Jean, she can't help being scared of things I suppose, she almost jumped out of her skin when she saw it, I should of thought any joker in our form would of been decent enough to popped it into say Alicia's desk, not if it happened to be Alicia who popped it in said a sly voice, you do so love playing tricks don't you Alicia? You and Daryl where in the first form room before afternoon school and I'm sure we'll all remember you saying you'd like to put a spider down Mary Lou's neck. It was Gwendoline speaking, Alicia glanced at her, well I didn't do it she says, nor did Daryl, sorry to disappoint you darling Gwendoline, Mary, but we just didn't, if it was any one I should think it was you. Mary Lou's my friend said Gwendoline, I wouldn't do that to her. Well if you've almost drowned her one week I should think you could quite well bring yourself to put a spider in her desk the next week said Daryl. It's pretty funny that you and Alicia were the only ones in the classroom before afternoon school persisted Gwendoline angry that no one seemed to agree with her suggestion. Shut up said Catherine shortly, we know it wasn't Daryl or Alicia because they say so. The spider must of got in there by accident and that's that. Well I think began Gwendoline that the class took at once. Be quite Gwendoline, Gwendoline shut up, shut up Gwendoline, Gwendoline shut up. There was nothing to do but to shut up, Gwendoline was sulking exasperated. It had been such a good idea and all that had resulted from it was a double punishment for her and a complete failure to make anyone believe to Alicia or Daryl had played the trick. True the first formers had had to go to bed an hour earlier, but they all voted it was worth it, Gwendoline felt vicious about the whole affair, she'd determining not to be put off by her first day there . What erm hours early. She did. She determine not to be put off by her first failure, but to go on doing things to Mary Lou so that in the end the class would have to put the tricks down to Alicia and Daryl. She thought she would also hint to Miss Potts that Alicia and Daryl were at the bottom of things, but she didn't get very far with this, she had to go and see Miss Potts about some returned homework. She stood very neatly beside her in the little room that Miss Potts shared with Mams Audiponde at North Tower. Miss Potts I was awfully sorry about that spider affair the other day, she began, of course Alicia and Daryl were in the classroom before hand, I'm sure they know something about it, I heard Alicia say, Miss Potts looked up, are you trying to sneak she said, or in more polite language to tell tales, because if so, don't try it on me. At the boarding school I went to Gwendoline we had a very good punishment for sneaks, all the girls in the sneak dormy gave her one good spank with the back of a hair brush. You may have a lot of interesting things to tell me, but it's no use expecting me to listen. I wonder if the girls here out the same punishment for sneaks, I must ask them. Gwendoline went flaming red, as sneaks, fancy Miss Potts daring to call her that. Gwendoline Mary Lacy a sneak, all because she just wanted to drop a kindly hint, Gwendoline didn't no what to say she felt as if she'd like to burst into tears, but Miss Potts always got very impatient with girls who did that. She went out of the room longing to slam the door as she often did at home, but she didn't dare to here. She felt very sorry for herself, if her mother new what an awful school she'd come to she would take her away at once, Miss Winter too would be horrified. But Gwendoline wasn't quite so sure about her father, he can say things at times very like Miss Potts said. The week went by, it was a very pleasant week, hot with a cool breeze that made games and swimming even more pleasant than usual, Alicia and Betty were practising hard for the school sport, both were excellent swimmers and divers . That's what I use. That's not very nice is it . Hm no, well try not to keep banging it. It does on her and it's quite sharp. Oh dear. Daryl tried to imitate all they did, she was good to, but not quite so good as they were, but she was quite fearless and divide of the highest diving board and went down a chute in all kinds of peculiar position. The only unhappy person that week was Mary Lou. She'd got into a lot of trouble over many little things, for instance, her clothes in the changing room were being thrown down in a pool of water, and was soaking wet, she had to take them to matron to be dried, matron was cross. Mary Lou can't you hang your things up properly in that changing room? You know there always puddles of water on the floor from the girls coming in and out of the pool. I did hang them up matron said Mary Lou mildly, I know I did, then Mary Lou's tennis racket sudden showed three broken strings, they were not frayed, but looked as if they've been cut, Mary Lou was upset. My new racket she said, look Gwendoline, who would think a new racket would go like that. It couldn't said Gwendoline pretending to examine it very closely, those strings have been cut Mary Lou someone's been playing a trick on you, what a shame. Mary Lou was miserable, she couldn't believe she had any enemy's, for when she found buttons cut off on her Sunday dress, she new someone was being unkind and mean, Gwendoline comforted her. Never mind I'll sew them on for you, I hate sewing but I'll do it for you Mary Lou. . So making a great show of it Gwendoline sowed on the six blue buttons one night. The first former's stared at her in surprise, they knew she never mended any thing if she could help it. How did those buttons come off asked Jean? That's what I'd like to know said Gwendoline smugly, six buttons all ripped off I'm putting them on for Mary Lou because I'm so sorry any one should play at such a dirty trick. I'd like to know who cut the strings of her tennis racket too, the first formers looked at one another, it certainly is queer the way things have been happening to poor Mary Lou lately, even her prayer book had disappeared and some of her pencils had gone. True there'd been found in Alicia's desk, but everyone thought that was just an accident, now they began to wonder if someone had put them there, not Alicia, Lizzie wouldn't do a thing like that, but somebody, it was getting near half term and new the girls were excited because some of them were expecting visits from there parents. Any parent who lived not to far away would be sure to come. Daryl because her father and mother were coming. They lived a long way away, but they decided to take a weeks holiday in Cornwall and decided to see Daryl in the middle of it. The girls began to talk about there families, I wish my three brothers could come said Alicia, we'd have some sport then. I wished my little sister could come said Jean, I'd love to show her Mallory Towers. Is your mother coming Sally asked Mary Lou? No said Sally she lives too far away. Daryl remembered something your mother had told her in a letter a week or two before, she said that she'd met Sally Hopes mother and had liked her and she said to that she'd seen Mrs Hopes baby. Who?. Sally. Sally's sister a little girl of three months, Daryl had meant to tell Sally what her mother had said and had forgotten and now she remembered. Oh Sally I expect your mother won't come because of the baby she said. Sally went stiff, she stared at Daryl as if she couldn't believe her ears, her face went quite white. When she spoke she sounded as if she was chocking. You don't know what your talking about she said, what baby? we haven't a baby, my mother won't be coming because it so far I tell you. Daryl was puzzled, but Sally don't be silly my mother says in a letter she's seen your baby sister she's three months old she said. I haven't got a baby sister said Sally in a low queer voice, I'm the only one, mother and I have been everything to each other, daddy has to go, go away such a lot, I haven't got a baby sister. . Girls looked at Sally curiously, whatever could be the matter with her she sounded so queer. Oh right said Daryl and Elsie you ought to know I suppose any way, I'd suspect you'd like a sister, it's nice having one. I should hate a sister said Sally, I wouldn't share my mother with anyone, she walked out of the room her face as wooden as ever, the girls were really puzzled, she's a funny one said Irene, hardly ever says anything, all closed up, somehow, but sometimes those closed up people burst open suddenly and then look out, well I'll shall certainly write and tell mother she's mistaken said Daryl and she did so. Then the mesh, she told Sally the next time she saw her, I'm sorry I made that mistake about you having a sister she said to Sally, I've written to tell mother you've said you haven't one she must of been mistaken what your mother said. Sally stood still and gazed, glared at Daryl as if she suddenly hated her. What you want to go interfering for she burst out, leave me and my family alone, little busy body always sticking your nose into other people's affairs, Daryl's temper flared up, I don't she said, you gua rd your tongue Sally, I never meant to interfere and I can't think what all the fuss is about, either you have a sister or you haven't, I don't care. You tell your mother not to interfere either said Sally, writing letters about my family. Oh don't be so silly flared back Daryl really exasperated now, any one would think there was a deep dark mystery the way you go on, any way I'll just see what my mother says when she next writes to me and I'll tell you. I don't want to know, I won't know said Sally as she put her hands put out her hands as if she was fending Daryl off, I hate you Daryl Rivers, you with, you with your mother who comes to see you often, sends you things and writes you long letters and comes to see you. You boast about that to me you do it all on purpose, your mean, mean, mean. . Daryl was utterly taken about, what in the wide world did Sally mean, she watched the girl go out of the room and sat down on the form completely bewildered. Right, half term at last. Half term at last. Hm. Right teeth cleaned at least I think. Come on. Teeth cleaned at last. And bed. Zzz -Zzz, bob ock noisy on that. Hm. Cockle. Cockle doodle do. Hello, hello doodle do. come on cos I'm very tired. . I've still got these cheese cake to finish off, wash your hands. I've got just testing the collage thing you know. Qule age a vi vous How old are you? How old are you? Put in it. No, quel, I think, it just sounded, will have to listen to that French tape again. Make it collage. Well that's probably just what it sounded like when you haven't any idea what she was talking about, but I think that. collage. Well I think that's what she was saying. How old are you? . You should of said Je Suis. Sept. I am are. Je Suis. I didn't know. No you didn't know. Well she didn't know you weren't French did she? No, I said I couldn't do this I didn't know. Think then she probably gave up. Yeah. Well she didn't know English and you didn't know French. No. say yes . Come on let's see ya . Come on open a bit wider so I can do those, that's better, don't want them back ones to go bad. Pardon. You don't want those back ones to go bad. I have brushed them well. Good. I have. Hm We don't usually cos you can't get up there. Oh, you have to try. we try. Those the ones that'll go bad. I do do them. But I do the back one's twice, cos I do them with water as well. Right. I brush my teeth twice today because toothpaste . She's been playing in her dolls house. . I tidied it up. Where'd that come from then? Well I think her feet you know kicking the carpet behind her. . dad. These things happen don't they. Uhum,. Worse things happen at sea. . Have you been playing with your dolls house? Yes, well I have played. I wasn't played with in with it. I tidied it up, you didn't do what I wanted first. Hm, hm, hm, hm mummy do this. That's alright. . What is this? Think there the bits from the Sindy house. There the bits I don't need. Don't you want a dust bin. Huh. I think it's suppose to be a casserole. Yeah, and I can't have the casserole. . Haven't got room for it . Hm it's a bit big isn't it? Yes, and the things to go in the oven . You haven't got an oven at the moment. Pardon. You haven't manage to get an oven at the moment have we? I'll make you an oven. Oh, right. Night, night, then. Why do they an oven? Well it hasn't come in. Right. Last time I wrote it, I hadn't got it. Oh I've seen this one. Have you, is it good? Oh, what you doing? Well nobody can see if you sit right in front of it, can they? Well where you going to sit. I'll sit here. Can you tell me why your song book has to be on the floor and the music on the floor behind it? Sue's just gone past at a hundred miles per hour. Oh she'd been taking Matthew to work. . Would you like to go one hundred miles an hour?. . . Yeah,. car, car . we have to pay for it About the didn't leave it on the living, kitchen table. Yeah. . What till next week end when you . Oh your not going next weekend are you? Yeah. I . No, I don't want . What even if it means you . Yeah, even if it means I . What do you want for breakfast? Eh, can you get it? Yeah. Oh thanks. Erm can I have a few a that or erm, marmalade sandwiches please. Or what? Marmalade sandwiches please. Ok. Thank you. Just for you. I'm going away next weekend, not next weekend. Monday. Monday. Wonder if you'll remember the things we saw when we were there. What you, what do you remember about the Isle of Wight. Rain. Rain. Huh. What with cows. Yeah I no what, I have beach . It wasn't. it was. . All the pictures of us on the beach, with got all . We haven't. And the . No they weren't. We, do you remember going down to Pedelow , and going under the pier. Yes, and I nearly crashed it. And it was cold. We had lots of nice ice cream there Ah. Hope to see that, when you put the handle on the table, the lights start flickering. There, from there you can't see the light. But if you put your hand on the table like this, look the light stops, look there. Does it? Look . . Look. Right, eh one for breakfast. It is recording you daddy. Is it? Yeah Do you want to listen what you to what you've said? No Clare,. Come on Amy. Come on Amy be a good girl, be a good girl, whoops, this pen has gone wrong. Come on Amy. switch this on again. Yeah,. . . Hear the language you just . Have you seen this stupid cheque. . . Got a another one. You don't get another one. What d'ya get? Don't get anything. Oh, I'll change my banks. They just let you run out. Then what? Well I rang them up yesterday because I got two cheques left. Yeah. And there still waiting on the twenty fourth May, I said well I haven't got it yet, he said no it's taking two weeks or so. I like ordering my cheques in that time. Oh well, we all have it. Can't escape from the printer now not, not to . How long . How many got coming. . I should think it's about two weeks. Oh . I know, you can't get a set cheque book. Why? Well I mean how'd ya get one? You write to the bank and say. I haven't got any cheque books. Well. . Do you ring the printer then for a cheque book. No, it's suppose to come, you come automatically. Well when you get another cheque book, you write on the back please can I have another cheque book. Why can't you ask for two cheque books at once? Well they don't usually issue, I mean I usually make so I ask for one in plenty of time. the next day, so. Well they have to move the erm, the reminder, to get a cheque book. Well I did, I took it, I took it out and said, alright when I went and enquired, I said well I would normally have a cheque book now cos I'm not always in the bank, and I had this slip to say I don't need one will come automatically he said oh yes, but that breaking down is hopeless, then I should fill it in now and I'll take it. My would come the next day, well it . . Daddy. What? You can't just move . I add them up yesterday and said what's it, what do I do, I've not come to , now they've sent me a temporary one. Hm. He said oh yes it's ordered, I said great, huh, going shopping this afternoon, what do I do when I haven't got any cheques left? Abbey National. . Have cheque books there . Hm. . Just erm, Lloyds convenient. Well it means I've got to go on a Thursday so if you run out of money on a Tuesday with run out. . And how ever long the queue is in Abbey National I've got to wait. bank queuing. No, nothing like Building Society. . Park virtually outside. Well it is the most convenient bank for us isn't it? Yeah, it's only round the corner, you can park right. Yeah. Right by it. Yeah. I mean you'd be the only one in, or if your not the only one, you wouldn't have to wait long. Daddy . Daddy you get eh a over ten thousand pounds reward. Hm. If you see any one breaking into any bank around the country. Probably do. Do daddy, if that . . do it. Yeah, but they might arrest daddy at the same time. No, well. . Then he doesn't take any thing, then I get the ten thousand pounds. Easy. Why've you got birthday girl on your. Has that. Dressing gown. Super girl.. I was gonna underneath. . They only record what your saying then? No. Not at the moment. No, but, couldn't they write it all down? I don't know. Don't talk about it, your not suppose to . . This is too big a knife. Pardon. This is too big a knife. Well go and get another one then, be careful with it, don't use it like a dagger . It's daddies one . daddy. One. It's your fault that's my . Your very . . . Ah. She usually spread marmites . . . . Screw erm up, screw erm up. . She doesn't like the story. Oh got all the drips. Oh,her. I . Highly commended her. Oh. What? Screw them up. Oh yeah. She said did you know the story cos she doesn't like the story very much. I know the story. I know the story. Oh that's all right then. Why did you won't to know the story? Cos she didn't know whether you'd like the story. I know the story. Was there a cutter? That's why . . . Here you go, here's a. Erm, I think there cutting there deserts . I do . I don't know . . Well I think she cut it. Gonna get back . . Bit naughty isn't they? Gonna get some . . if he comes on a Thursday . . I see.. Mind. . Oh your orange. Orange. Rose is just leaving. Hm. But it. Could I look with you and mummy? . Gemma. Tennis racket, yes. Did it . No. . Daddy. There all . up hill. we'll walk up if you like. No. If you like . I'll , I'm not packing any more. . No. Okay forget it. . Daddy. . . it already.. Daddy. . Daddy. Don't talk . . Could we?. I'm not going to drive in . Why? What's wrong, daddy? Well we can park right outside , what, any way, who's playing ? I was. She's a nice one for twenty two ninety five. Oh. But, that's the cheapest, so, no there's one for twenty one ninety nine. Where are those from?. Olympus. What sort of is it? I'll have to in the Argos place. Yeah, eh lets erm ride into one. No, you can look in the catalogue you don't need to go in there. No, but. Only if I want to, I don't mind. I mean in any case ten minutes . Does it, it does not it. It doesn't . Yeah, for you, you go in first gear . Let's say twenty minutes, won't take more than that then we could get Clare you put your bicycle right outside of the shop, put it on the railings and go in, that's it then. I'll ride mummies bike she's got gears. Oh no your not. Sshh. Your not allowed to go on my bike, it's mine, you'll have to go on yours . Amy she said mummies, not yours. Oh, I thought she said Amy's. No. you've got gears instead of me. Sally said you'll say that was the problem. You said you weren't bothered. Well I wasn't at the time. Well your not allowed mine. I am getting bigger. I . Yes Oh you look stuffed up as I am. What? Your about as stuffed up as I am . . I tried to when I was two didn't I? Wonder what you blow it, it does . . Got to get. Has to . It's like if you have names I haven't much longer . Daddy how much would you be prepared to spend for her, that I not How much would you, when you were little how much would you pay for . ninety nine isn't it?. Go up and get the old and see if . That .. . That helter skelter was . Yes,. Yes,. That depends how interest it was, I think . What with . that was . I hate . Go on. . Most impressive . If I'd got a seat on the back of my bicycle Amy could have gone on my bicycle. Well I've got my nice own bicycle. Hm, but, you wouldn't be safe to peddle into Bromley. Why? Those are a bit cheaper.. that's . Your problem is. Slazenger, sixteen ninety nine. What are they, that's going to be heavy as well. Reebok. Puma nineteen ninety nine and the Dunlop twenty three ninety nine. Dunlop would be best. That, that the Dunlop what be the lightest. It doesn't give weight . No. There all aluminium That's about . That's nice,. Does it say a variety of colours. No.. Why, give me back my plate. . . Please may I get down from the table? You haven't had any milk yet. Oh, well I've had get down. Yes , no, well go and get a hanky, blow your nose, is that yours? No. You might want some later. Thank you. I like the Slazenger one best. that's a very lot. .that one especially is . . Ok. Huh, mind the cheaper they are, the heavier they go, there up from. Yeah. Who told you that? They are. Who told you that?. No they not . They do. Who . If you going into the, you know that shop. . the heavier ones are cheaper then the ones Well you would stick in the cheapest one. What? That shop you were going at the cheapest one. Yes. So it was the heaviest was it? Yeah. . Heavier than the head one, it's all right dad. You'll probably find some of the expensive ones in the it doesn't necessary follow. No. On the whole the cheaper ones are lighter, because there the junior ones. These aren't one for short short erm . You've got to something daddy . Sort of they look all to big for me. That's what colour Caroline's got. Who said Caroline had got the one like you saw in the shop? How many rackets has she got? No, I meant the style like that, that's it . They all look just the same, they just different colours . They don't mummy . Huh. size . smaller. Not one of those said . Alright, in a moment. Oh, not going me you said I would get some. Thank you If you put it down it'll all goes on the plate. I know. No, it's soaking up all the bread crumbs. Next lot are going to shut shuttle cock, erm shuttle cock.. Pardon. Not going to erm Badminton racket. The trouble with Argo's is you can't really get them out to try them. There's quite a big sports shop in Orpington. Is it Gamleys? Yeah. We can go there. Daddy, can't we? Have you got tap dancing today Amy? Hm yeah. We could go while she's at tap. Pardon. No. Ah, to Orpington I'm not biking to Orpington. Were not biking to Orpington were biking to Bromley. Well I don't fancy biking into Bromley. Don't be such a lazy oath. Well I don't. Perhaps we'll go another day. Please daddy can we go in the car? I pay for the eh I pay ten pea or twenty pea or whatever for the ride. for the parking meter. . Miles away from. So, I don't mind. You'll have to walk. Daddy can I have another cup of tea please? . Paying two people, there's two people in the car. I will, I will pay you twenty pea or whatever. First find a meter before you go. Otherwise I'll pay for the fine for being on a yellow line. Forty pounds? Forty. . Thought you said it was twelve. No. Double yellow lines are forty. Aunty Monica got ticket her, fined for parking on a yellow line, didn't she? Once grandma said, and I thought it was over . She isn't our aunty is she? No not really. What's that then? Why do we call her aunty mummy? Please can we go in the car ? There be plenty of parking spaces if you go . Let's go on a bicycle, it'll be quicker I think. Huh. . Pardon. Wearing your today. Please. Your such a lazy so-and-so you come on the bicycles. No. . No, can't . Probably certainly not sending her on her own. There you are Clare there's an altum for you. What. Please, probably go to Rainham any way. No I said Rainham tomorrow. Sorry I that won't , that won't wash. Why ? Oh, please. You have to wash the car remember, we can get off by the car . than going in the car . Go in mummies car if it's smaller to get in places, daddy. Yes. Do you want to? No. Why? Cos you've got to park a car. I think you ought to go in your really. Yeah. If you had a look in them in Bromley it's not a great big sports shop is it? No. Olympus. . No. Well. She's not working to . She's not biking to Bromley?. I don't know where else you'll find one in Bromley do you? Pay twenty pea for dad. Tell daddy you'll pay twenty pea just for . . Bet you can't . a racket Alders? They sell rackets? . They only sell good ones in Alders. I think there's more shops than . I'm not cycling right the way up there . Is there? . I haven't seen one up there. There's a, I mean there's a school shop and they sort of sell back pack, might have got back pack there. What the sport shop? The sport shop. Oh. Yes, there's a school shop. We ought to start getting my school uniform. Well might and wait till the second of July and get it all second hand. Yeah, well say it's all sold out by then. No, that's when there doing it, second of July. The day you go to school. What, so your at the uhum, place, while I'm at doing . It all available for you to buy at the end of the day. For me? Well no, me. Not just you. Pardon Any way have a word with Mrs have a word with Mrs look on the market for any thing uhum. I've got a tee shirt uhum. I've just got to start to get my school uniform now. She must of forgotten. Mrs . This not what I would get. Took that to, give Clare the school on umm. . . Hm, trouble is we haven't seen any of them yet. Haven't seen her in quiet a while. Hm, oh though she said she's got some school uniform, but we haven't stop to think. Well it's worth asking her when you see her. You said it was rude to ask her for it. Why . Well it was probably a bit rude in February. I think you can probably ask her now. Wonder if she's there, take over from. Do you know her house? Yes, I don't like to go down and knock on the door really. . I bet she . To talk, the teachers don't give you there telephone number if there's any trouble do they? You sometimes get there address. Would you very keen if . I know Mrs Woodruff's address, mummy parked her car outside her house. . She lives in Kent Wood . . oh . I like those ones . Dad . There were one last night on uhum,things. . Oh, I haven't had mine yet. . Well all your doing is nattering and. Two, two teaspoons please Amy. There, there not a teaspoon, one for me and Clare can only have one . Why? Cos I have another one.. One of these books that they . He, he, he, he, he, he. That the. He, he, he, he, he, he. You can't run with . That's mine . No, you no, teaspoon . .. Clare wants a big so I got . Look, funny that they print the . . . Yeah. Oh she can't have two that's . No I didn't. Can I have a bit more Amy? No. Why?. Hm, well that's, that's an awful lot actually, let, let, let Clare have some will you got to have a little bit less this time Amy. Yeah, but two. It is your second, isn't it? That your second? I've hardly got any. . Hm, that was my chair. Your next to daddy. And what's wrong with that? Your next . Don't know how much you've got. What a mini t.v. What. Oh right. . Well you don't have to give it back do you? . Yes. uhum. . What? Oh nothing. No nothing. How much? I . Only said something, why. So how much are tennis, how much, no. . I should think he'd give her it. Give her. Why? Has John McEnroe given his? I would think so. He breaks all of his, doesn't he? He goes and breaks it in half when his lost. I'm amazed at the sale of the manufactory exactly what they want. Keep the rackets a main . Are they? So they don't have to pay. Don't know. How much would they cost, you know,. Lots of money. What, five hundred. Thousands I should think. Finished that.. Thousands . Phew. John McEnroe threw his into the crowd once. He nearly killed someone . Daddy I want to show you something. Want to show me something . And his . Oh wow. Dad. Ok. Dad. That's the one I made . It does. . That's quite a good one, isn't it? Is that one of the . . It was the . Yeah. . It does . You . I forgot I made one like that. You have two things to put the raspberry and then they . That's probably why it was broke. . Well that wasn't why, he didn't, well he didn't happen to that one. It just. How'd you know? It just,together and then . Especially if it goes smash. And then they . Go up and get the uhum Index catalogue and see if that's got any more in it. Any more? . What they . . . What do you fancy doing today then? Uhum, I don't know. Just a break . I wonder whether we go .. No.. No, that's what they want. Just get that in Tunbridge Wells. . . Yeah. wash this up . No. I much doing the day might'n you. Well we can't go out tomorrow cos Amy's got a party. Yeah. They weren't actually on that boat were they? . . Yeah. They weren't actually on that boat.. Yeah.. What do you want to do today? I want to go shopping while mummies getting dressed. Nine ninety nine. That's more like it. No I don't like that tennis racket, I don't like the colours. Much better. Junior and Senior sizes, there you are. Well we want you to decide don't you? Yeah,. The others can be every so sweet. Where put the picture of Amy. Well that one comes in a junior size. Which one dear? That one for nine ninety nine. Oh yeah. Amy come here. Amy. Look at the picture of you. It says it's senior or junior sizes. . . . More the sort of price.. . Do you want your cup of tea Clare? Yes please. Well there it is. . I if you really want to, better going into your and having look in the well Well this won't take much more than that though, do you? Why don't you like that one? Pretty it's green. Let's, ask you what other colours they were . . Hm, it's not worth paying a lot of money at the moment, when you get better at it Back pack's it is, seven ninety nine. That's a head one. . . Don't like that one Difficult . Look, she look's to . Look, that look, see. . . I remember that, that was absolutely awful. . Did I take that picture? No, I don't think so, Should think daddy did. Think you were a bit young then to take pictures. Yeah, cos I bought a camera in the Isle of Wight. No you didn't. Oh no it's Wales. No it wasn't it was uhum Weymouth. Oh. It depends really what it wouldn't be very sensible. . Yeah, it was . Yeah. . . . I . Never mind, see what the weather's like it won't be . No. Oh yes I bought you some beads in . Oh you have, haven't you? . Pardon. Yeah, bit come off. Yeah Just give this a quick whizzo. It's quite a sweet book. . What? I don't want to . No. I'm hoping for a new one this year. What. You new one this year. Possible . Ah, ah, you would holiday France. I won't have any homework at all. No. Will I? Not unless they give us some. No, there won't be some, make the most of it, huh. Yeah, but, won't they give us some before . I wouldn't of thought so. You would or you wouldn't of thought so. I wouldn't have. Good. Can't be sure. Well done, perfect day out. Yes,. It's very good. There you are, there you are. Very good. Yeah. Have you got any of the tee shirts, that they were. I think we have yes. Are, did you want one to wear? . Pardon. Yes, I'll have one. No I think you can have a white one. Do you want a white or a red one? White one I think do you? Yes please. small. Oh yes I'd should think she's only small. Uhum. When does she start her other class? I think that's quite big enough for you, don't you? Think . Yes I don't think we could manage any. You don't want it, do you want small, you wouldn't want a small would you ? No, no no that should be fine. Have a small medium? No. Small tee shirt in white one for a small child isn't it? There we go. Small adult. The child's are very small. Ah well one to fit this one. Eh she looking in the large child?because they shrink a bit in the wash. They can wear these for tap can't they? That's a large child, they wear the red they wear red for tap. That's a large child. Yes, I think's that probably better. But they usually wear a vest with it and . I think you'll have to have a red. Do you mind a red?. Alright. Do you like a red one? Please. Right, how much do we owe you for, sorry about that. Uhum, children's one, five pounds.. Oh that's a. Yeah, Lovely, oh sorry, I haven't got a five. Uhum. There you are Oh thanks very much, sorry about that, right, you will be smart won't you? Uhum . Eh large child I think, is it, can't tell. Yes, large child. There you are. Right, pardon. Well a small child will be too small for you I think, yeah. I've seen Jason Donovan live on stage. Have you, where? Yeah, it's Jason and his technicolour dream coat. Well you won't of seen it yet. I've seen it. No, it hasn't started yet. It starts today. What does? Jason Donovan and technicolour dream coat. When are we going to see it? Next Saturday. Well actually it was on quite, quite a while ago when I was six it was on. Yes, but not with Jason Donovan in it. Yes, cos Jason Donovan, on that one Jason wore Joseph. Well yes his Joseph this time. One that I watch Jason Donovan was actually Joseph. Ah right. Yes, well with seen it once before, but that was at Bromley. Pardon. We've seen it before haven't we? But that was at Bromley. . No. There going up to London to see it. Ah, are you coughing, oh dear. All right? Oh ding-a-ling, yeah. Hole in the swing. Not as far as I've just left them. Hole in the swing. Yeah,. Do you know how long it goes on for? Hole in the swing. Got an idea it goes on till one o'clock, but, I mean they might as well keep them. There was only a few people there, I don't , busy one, there was about four children there. Oh gosh, oh there's seem quite full. I wonder if perhaps . Yeah, yeah, think so. . Yes, I don't know. . Yes it is isn't there, yeah. What's the date? Oh yes, we were going to go out but bother. . Michelle. Have you been at work or did you. Yes, I've . Yes, hello Arthur. Ring the bell, come on, in you go. Yes, had we been a little brighter, we were going to ring up and take Amy out yesterday we were also aah, and we struggled into Bromley and eh that was it. Yes been hopeless hasn't it? No . . I wouldn't think so . . I will ask him but I doubt it. I don't know whether his uhum. It's not like, I mean,. Are they? of the if your not careful . Yeah, yeah. to any changes, cos when there daughters leave they leave anyway. They go. five years, so I was wondering if he would. His not that sort of bloke? He keeps a very low profile. I thought I thought he was very all sort of, I thought he or you know, good at delegating and eh. hm, I don't, I would doubt it, I mean he has absolutely nothing to do with our school. . No, no, muggins, muggins does, but. You don't need, he, that sort of thing that turns you on or. No, I wouldn't be on the committee, no, cos I could never guarantee he'll be home. No, I point. No it's to much of a, I hate saying I'll go out at eight o'clock and tell him to be home and at quarter too eight he hasn't come and oh, I'm to tired really, but, so I've always played it that I will help when I when I can, but uhum, I don't go on the committee, cos then your stuck, you've got to go. Oh yeah, well you can only . That's right, yeah, so . Years, obviously you get roped into . To do all the things whether you feel like it or not, oh no, I usually take a back seat and then when it's , I'm . Well, well it's usually time to do it. Yeah, I mean I do a stall and everything at the summer fair and stuff. Well they often ask her, I mean . They usually want volunteers, yeah . They're a hand short or, or there is functions then obviously there are . That's, that's more my style and then you know you're doing something or you not, you, you don't have to and if you're around, yes we got oh pages of it from Bromley High the other day. What uniform and stuff? Uniform and swimming club and flute. Yeah. And, and this new, what's this new track suit like? Haven't seen them, haven't seen a new one . . Fifty five pounds . .. Uhum, I dunno, I've, I've seen something like grey track, like grey. Grey and pink it said. pinky . Yes, I haven't seen it though, I haven't, I've heard of the new ones but I haven't seen it. It must be a shell suit I think. No, it says optional, I think it'll be very optional for us at the moment. Uhum I mean she don't have to have it . Especially the way there getting . And they grow quickly, I mean it sort of. When there growing quickly . Yeah. I mean it's sort of shooting up every other term aren't they? Yeah, yeah, so well. Buy extremely large ones. Ought to have Clare . Yes, well she goes on the second of July, she has a day at school. Oh she has a day in school. Yeah, yeah and lunch. Yeah,no stop it . So she can meet her teacher and all the other starting with her so, quite excited about that. Yeah. Yeah, so there was a second hand uniform sale, so I thought great. Yeah,, I they never give you date, yeah . . Oh, right, well,. In wonderful condition. Well that's it. They grow out of it quickly . Uhum, I mean . I mean if you buy, put your foot down . Quarter of an inch or so, I couldn't believe it, you know . No, no, especially if you've only got one daughter and it only goes threw once and, I mean the list is so long. . Yeah. I, I have to look at the I mean we looked at it when it first came through, when all our originals . When do you get all you know, all the cookery aprons and the. Yeah, science overalls. Science aprons and then the shorts for athletics and the swimming costume. It must of cost quite a piece cos it obviously . Yeah, swimming . Yeah, yeah. It's better to have that then eh to ruin the . Oh yeah, but I mean it just goes on when you need it all new. Oh yes, yes, you, oh yes, I have. I think it's very kind of the uhum . Well it's on the second of Jan July. Yeah. When were here, so, yeah, oh I shall go and see what bargains I can get here, eh. I've done it before. Yeah, cos eh, that'll be good. Yes, I might, I might pop in and . I saw a blazer that was going in the sale couple of weeks ago and I, I said. Yes, I missed the date, I missed the date of the last one . I mean it's absolutely immaculate , I mean you, you sell it brand new from a shop, I agree yeah. Yeah, well that's it basically. It was a very small one, but it, you know. They often don't wear them that much, so. I think they had a price on, it was something like,. Hm. I think they put there own price though, I don't know how they do it. Probably. . Yeah, then you better pricing it low and getting rid of it then too high and. . Yes, I think we'll have to have have a good look, yes it's alright when you've got a few things to get, but when when you've got the whole list. Ding, dong, ding, dong. It's a bit sort of horrific, but eh. Why don't you . I think it's more than that for the seniors. . . I think. . Seventy five I think, yeah, seventy five I think they were paying for the. You've got to get,. You have no choice. . Oh, oh well they have said grey coat from anywhere, just a long grey coat, uhum. . Yes, what was it, then they said white blouses, just open neck. Not necessarily . No, no. . The skirt is definite, you know, so many pleats, uhum, so obviously that is and the blazer's static, but quite a lot of it seemed to be fairly, you know, instead of grey, either the school track suit or just a grey track suit, so uhum, which it is, it's all these little bits like . Yeah. Hockey stick . . Oh yes, trainer, what am I thinking, oh lovely, yes well I'm a. You do it all bit by bit, if you do it all in one fail swoop, you think oh my . Bits yes well Georgina round the corner apparently she has the lot new, because the bank moved them and they paid her and it was over four hundred pounds. Oh I can believe that. Yeah.. Keep working. Oh dear, yes, yes, right, oh well. . Well I'll see you Tuesday won't we? she get's on alright. You sure that's alright, that's. . Oh yes now . Can you manage? Hop over it don't ya? No, what's the swimming club like, do you know? It seems to be quite well run, we haven't, we haven't got round to joining it . Yes, have you seen, have you seen the pool?. Mainly because of the restrictions on. The pool, I've seen the pool yes, Clare's been in it. Tuesday and a Saturday, you know, and it depends on what you're doing . . . Shoosh now please. Saturday there are less in the morning, I don't know how, what time it actually it's been used. Probably when there at tap. Well I mean, it's, it's, if your I think perhaps Clare's age . Yeah, there to young. go with them we can't let them go on there own, I mean once there've school, you've got to take come back later or something. Yes, yes, it's more useful probably in the holiday. Yes, that's right. Come up here, look. Oh yes I think ploughing through all this lot. information. Yes, yes, would you like to join this, how about that, how about the other, oh dear, yes it was a, yes we said lessens, I don't know what there lessons were like. There pretty good about it, there's two or three that has the lessons there, so . Yeah. No, don't bounce on there you'll fall off the edge. . Yes, well, I mean Amy can swim, so uhum, yes it's just how much you can do, I mean Clare doesn't really need, need lessons I don't think. Yeah. Yes, then you can join and hope to use it. To use it in the holidays,. . Yeah. . Yeah. Try and get a certain people acting as life guard otherwise it time, so . You've just wonder where your spare times gone . . Yes, yes, just disappeared, yeah, right, right, well I'll ask Alistair, oh well uhum, I wouldn't hold out a lot of hope, huh, somehow, his uhum, he puts in an appearance at the summer fair for half an hour and looks round, says I think I'll go now,, I'll leave you to it you know, keep the children,, that's it, isn't it, his taken our Clare in to buy a tennis racket. Comes down to feet. Suppose they said it shrinks as well. Hm, but it is a bit big,isn't it? No I think that's probably alright, they do have them long don't they? all the other children come up to, they don't go up to here, I think I'll have to this don't you? Let's have a look, does it say what size it is? No. Age nine to eleven it says. Age nine. It is a bit big though . I think it's a bit big yes. Oh mum, to, it'll fit Clare. Yes, I think seven to eight would have fit you better. Yeah, was there any seven to eight, I think we should of got . Stand, stand up and lets see. Do you think that's to big? Shall we go back and see if we can change it? . Well we'll just go back and swop it. Ok. I don't know what to wear mummy. Erm I think I'll wear some trousers. Do you want to wear Koala? Ok, thank you. It isn't very nice is it? Pardon? It is a very nice day. Mm,going to be a nice day. Yeah. in the morning nice and sunny, then it came darker. It's clouded over and it's really quite cold. Mm. Getting a bit fed up with this weather. It'll be nicer we might have gone out, it's I think it'll I wanted to go to Chimney's it would be nice if it rained at Chimney's cos there, we could go in the pond. Yeah. You don't want it to rain. Pardon? You don't want it to rain. Yes we do, cos the little river Yes, but eh, I think it'll be too cold there, don't want to get Clare cold. Penthurst. We've been to Penthurst, I think we're going to have to stay at home. Mm, neither do I, shall I just leave them? Ah mummy. You just word, you used the word shh haven't you? Mm. Just used the word what? Shoosh, haven't you? Mm. And another word, you use quite a lot of words don't you? Walking man that says. Here , I'll use quite a few more, get your clothes on, you'll get cold. Get your clothes on. Yes, then you can come down and read your book, till daddy and Clare come back, god knows when they get back. Back. Well they haven't come back yet, have they? Have they? They've gone off into Orpington and they, get this tennis racket and we haven't seen them since. Did you get one? Got, how much was that? Erm, fourteen ninety nine. She said it was a tiny bit small, but,. What'd you take those for? Put them in my handbag. Oh,. It's quite . Yes. Is that from that shop? Yes. We've got this picture. We bought another one, but, back again because eh, it was, it was too . Mummy where's her cream it's not in her bedroom? What? That's a nice one. Yes. So she doesn't feel very well? No. I've got a temperature. Mm, a bit warm. Hang your coat up and then go and have a lie down. lie down. I'd thought that was alright ? Yeah. Quite nice light one. Yeah, and the lady just said erm, do you wish to open that one, I said is that the right size? She put it down my and said well you're . That's the right size . Yeah. Mummy. Pardon? Yeah,afterwards. Oh, that was about the sort of price I was thinking of. Yeah . You can't see them at can you? No you can during the week, but what'll we do, she said well got a buyer take it back to customer services. Ha, oh I see, oh you bought that one did you? Yeah, I had to buy one. Oh. It's quite nice, thought it'll be bigger than that. Yeah. That's quite a nice one for her. Yeah, well she could do with something. Mm. She could do with being taken down to the tennis courts probably and have a knock up. Mm. Do you like it? Yeah, I think that's a good one. She said that was a bit small. Well I think it's alright for you. She, choose another one for about that big, but they got heavy. Yes, well they will as they get bigger won't they? So, she said put this down to your ankle and up to here, put it, put that I, I thought that was erm was very light Yeah. some of the small ones. There's tiny ones that . I don't think they er were short . Ah, that looks rather nice. She nearly made me have that, eh, other one, didn't she? Mm. Lower one. There's this other boy there he choose the colours , he said I'll have that one, that one and that one,said there were. He really wanted a purple one. He said this one. I don't think he wanted that one, but eh, erm, I don't . Oh I think that'll be alright for you. Still think it'll still be there? Wouldn't she? Will she, that's probably why she didn't want to have the . Have the She thought it already.. Mm, well, yeah think so, they have more there than yesterday. They had a whole full. Oh they had yes, they had a lot yesterday but most of them were over a hundred pounds. price is only . Mm, that's quite a nice shop. Yeah,as well. Mm, good, got to get it right for you. Mm. There are others which was bright yellow, blue, and she . I quite like the purple. like what? I like the purple. Yeah, purple and white. Mm. Yeah. Rack attack. Some of my friends has got silver in . They're not quite so girlish. Oh, I like them. Yeah. Yeah. Well I thought that was the place to go really. You put one on, in next year, we had two. Yes I know, they didn't have many. except the wouldn't let me out there on Saturday. For a new No. So daddy bought it instead, it's like, it's like that big and . No, you better, no, no, no, no, no, you just Can't I take it off? No. Why? You it. What's the matter? Mummy hurts. Oh, well you put some cream on it. You can't I have. Yes, I mean I can't see much more than that can I? And it hurts . been to. Oh did you? Yeah, get daddy a chain . Amy's got a tee shirt, with Sally the cat. Double U. Are these for me? No it's a W for Wilson. It's an N for me when it goes back. Amy put your shoes on. You're not to go round like that, you'll ruin them. They're very expensive. They're nice trousers. No, that's my dress. Oh. What's her tee shirt, carefully. Is that second ? No it was new. It looks, it looks like a white one. She's not allowed a white one for tap. Oh. She has to have red for tap, but she wanted a white one. Why she wanted a white one? Mm. You not so good. You're very thick aren't you,, no you must've stay in probably. You seemed better yesterday. I'm . Oh, has it come over you while you were going round shopping? . I saw the twins. Oh do you. Oh they've been swimming have they? I don't know. Mm, did they see you? Erm, they . Oh that's a shame, I thought you'd go out and play with it. Rack attack. What you say? I thought Clare would go out and play with her new racket, she's not really Nice cake. mm, not really very well. You don't any more. No, well they're aluminium, they won't warp. Right do you want some lunch? Yeah, just . Amy got high . Ah, oh the . No, I don't think anybody failed. If they failed they get told and they don't get a certificate do they? No. And they . It's ever so loud that. Do we have to have that on all through lunch? Please may have a ? What ? I think British Gas profits are unbelievable. They er . Yeah, they buy gas at eighteen P and they sell it for forty three P. vast profit and then they . How come, I mean, why does the big discrepancy? Why that's what they're charging, never mind the discrepancy. Who sells it to them at eighteen P? The oil company. The oil company. So why are they allowed to charge forty three P to the consumers? They're a monopoly aren't they? I mean what do they do to it to justify charging any more?. Don't do anything to it. No,. Deliver it to your home Well, what I to is the erm, getting involved in . Cos with British Gas you can't . Mm yes . Erm ,yourself on the gas side, because gas itself is not self apart from. I'd like to go down daddy. is very small. Mummy that's . Have you got the new ones? No,. Don't think so. You, have you? Have you got the new ones? No wasting the outside of that one. Mm, mm. I can't see a way. Have you got the new ones? I think they were thirty five dollars a packet. I don't know poppet. Mummy. Mm. At we had erm,. Mm. I like the . Yes, we'll have a few. Think oh it hasn't actually. Thought you had to put the weight on by law? Fright in asking what Somebody erm, sell all the stuff, sell . I wouldn't of thought they needed to. They don't need to, but, erm, I mean nine, ninety eight per cent of their sales is on sale of gas, so the only way you can make a name for yourself is getting involved in things other than gas, one, installing central heating or kitchen . talk about it. The way British Gas get involved. . I mean their gas showrooms in the high street. If you're running a business economically you wouldn't have those. never anybody in them anyway. No, but they weren't for them, cos they, doesn't really matter, they've got so much pocket out of gas But the Gas is erm, make them increase prices at five per cent less than the rate of inflation that way . they get rid of , saying that privatised the price of gas is gone down fourteen per cent in the past . Has it? Well, well. I haven't noticed. I mean nobody pick him up on that, but I mean, he might mean in real terms with, I don't think he has in real terms. has gone up. Oh Sorry, I was just wondering if you actually asleep or not. Want a cup of tea? No. I should have a cup of tea. I don't feel well. You want a cup of tea? Mummy,on the . No, I wouldn't bothered. Why? Why haven't you? Yeah, she's nearly asleep. Was Amy a bit upset when she knew you got highly commended? Eh? Did she say anything? Amy , she say anything about not getting highly commended? No, not much. Well I did . No that was a good girl Well she got it last time so it's your turn. I to say, that erm , I would of liked to be highly commend with her, but, I don't really think, not . I think you better say nothing aren't you. Chris said she did very well. Yeah, she was . I think she's a bit upset, I think she thinks I'm better, I'm better than her because I beat her in that, and I think she's, a bit of shock for her. Say, ah, what's this . The children's certificate. Mm. Yours only say pass, not highly commended. We'll have to frame that won't we? Pardon? We'll have to frame that. Mm. Only all the others got commended, then passed.. Who was the, who, who do you thinks the best dance in your class? Me. Oh dear. Before the exams, who did you think is the best? Kate said , but it wasn't, it was me. What did Katie get? Highly commended. Commended I think. Pardon, oh yes, commended, not highly. She much of got . Didn't really look. Pardon. Mm, mm. I didn't really look what the others got. The . I think Natalie probably got pass cos she didn't know the dance. No. She's erm, she's not very really. Isn't she? . I did too, but because I couldn't, I knew I couldn't, cos I . And you didn't keep your . Cos it,come out with , I didn't, it's a, it's not the fat , that's why I didn't do it. I couldn't believe it, I remembered all the way through. I did . because it's getting a,hold your breath. She thinks we don't have to hold our breath, you do it. . You have to it's . Oh I didn't expect Clare to go down ill again. Pardon? She's alright yesterday. Thursday. She's O K walking around the . So,on the way home. I have for lunch. I don't think she's really that ill. She very well . She looks quite pale. Does she? Mm. Oh. Mm, she was alright walking around Bromley yesterday. Pardon? Yeah she yesterday. She might have a temperature. Mm, she seems though she's a bit hot. Yeah. I'm opening all of these . Ah I've won the so I can scream on Good job we're not going to Jersey tonight. Mm. When is it? Nudge up a bit I mean it could've been tonight. Is erm,next Saturday? No, I thought only the was going. No. Oh, Diane, Rick are going but later on. When you say later on, you don't mean later on in the year? Yeah, I mean, yeah later on in the No, I told Jenny and I told Caroline, but Yeah. It gets a bit involved. Oh, I don't like to see just . No. One thing . No, I'll put that back. I mean I thought she'd had something but she's, don't want anything. Didn't have a cup of tea. a cup of tea on its own She was quite pleased with her t-shirt. Seen it? Mm, what is it? Oh. over her leotard, so we kept, we bought one, they said oh, you know, you want a fairly big one, so they , well it looked alright across here, when we got it home, she tried it on, it was nearly down to her knees. When we opened it up it was aged nine to eleven, and she said I can't go in this. So we had to go back and swap it for seven to eight I don't suppose . No, nine to ten was far too big. They said well they have them loose, yes, but she said they don't have them right down there. What do you want with money Well there was a sale at eh Oh,. Yes, some second hand stuff, I it's sold? No. What'll do with it? No I mean, I think you just leave it there and let come around again. I don't know how much gets sold, it's all a bit of a, I mean there's no room, it's only a very small anti-room isn't it? Oh it's in there? Yeah because the erm, lessons are going on in there. So it's all very, you know, on top of each other. I mean there's no point in the stuff sitting here, if they need it. No point in me hanging on to the stuff, cos the baby's grown out of it, that's it, isn't it? Mm. Arthur was saying some of the second hand stuff at Bromley High is quite good. Quite good. Mm. How do you mean? There's a second hand sale, there's eight Lego's, two Oh, I see. Yeah Feel like saying well if you're in charge of it, just keep a set that will fit Clare in her size and we'll have it. Been to an antique fair. Yes, yes, he's organised it Chris has had to go to work for two days this week. . What over half term? Mm, well, they in an office, so Get some money and I'll have some,a bit. Want some? Are you gonna have another cup? Then they go for a month to a, Sue's going on a computing course for a day on the tenth of June, the date Clare goes to Brompton, Isle of Wight, so I'll have to bring them home. Well she wants me to take them and bring them home, but I said look, you know, I've got, Clare's got to be at school for half past eight on that Monday. Yeah. I erm, and I'd rather take Caroline because I think it would be good for her to have Yeah. I can't get Catherine and Deborah and Caroline and Amy and Clare and all their luggage Well, I'm not quite sure, to, it's erm, run by the, one of these agencies. By an agency? Mm. Whether it's going on what's available or Mm . Suppose she thought she could probably get them to school, but can't bring them home. What . I don't really want to be cope with Deborah and Catherine the day Clare goes off to Isle of Wight do we? No Though, she seems very keen to have a job, that . . You seemed to rather a lot for her. Yes Well I . I thought she's going to call . Is John at work or is he, he starts on Monday? I think he starts on the tenth, I think he starts that that day. Mm. or something. Mm Yeah, I mean, a lot of us could do with a month off. Mm. It's better when Deborah's only started school, so Yes. so easy. Hello my pet, I don't like to see you like this. I say it's a good job we're not going to Joseph's tonight. Mhm.. Mm I think you're a bit, think you're a bit hot, that's probably what's wakening you up . Mm. I think you've got a slight temperature, not a lot, but, just a little bit, do you think you can manage a drink of orange? Well you ought to drink something, it'll bring your temperature down and it'll help make you feel better. The only thing is to drink. Can I a little bit of orange? I'll drink the rest, in a minute. Well try and drink it cos, you drink a bit, it'll bring this temperature down. You haven't got much of a temperature, but it's just slightly up. Slightly warm. It makes you feel very lethargic . Yes. Miserable doesn't it, temperature. Oh shame as you've just got your tennis racket, I thought you'd be out in the garden around. I'm just glad we aren't going, I mean we could easily of had to go tonight. You'd feel just like going up to London wont you? Mm. Hope you're better next week Just put a bit of wallpaper up in your bedroom, then you can. Don't like seeing . Mm. You didn't seem too bad this morning. Put . Mum. So does she go anywhere near these B and Q or Homebase,. What? B and Q and Homebase. Yes, I knew you were better on, you up Thursday night didn't you? Then you were alright yesterday, you were alright going round Bromley, you didn't really seem to have any awful after effects did you? Mm. Thought you'd recovered It's a nice . I can't keep anything up.. you've got this catarrh, haven't you? Mm,. Well if you don't get better at the beginning of the week, we'll have to take you and eh, get you some antibiotics, cos I don't want you ill. What happens if I am ill at the Isle of Wight like this? Ready. Well I don't think, I don't know, somebody will stay at the hotel with you I expect. Well hopefully you'll be alright. You've just all seemed you've got rather catarrhed haven't we? I mean I've got it as well. Mm, I didn't feel very well on Tuesday or Thursday. . Feel better tomorrow and be ill on Monday. Hope not. No. Well I mean it ought to have gone by next week, but be alright. If you're not better by sort of Tuesday, Wednesday we'll have to go to the doctor's get you some antibiotics. How do you have antibiotics, in water? Yes, if, well sometimes it's medicine. The norm it's medicine. Oh. Do you feel O K? Yeah, I feel a bit lethargic, but don't feel like doing a lot, but wanted to do . Yeah, I don't feel like going to London Zoo or anything. Mm or anything strenuous, but otherwise I feel alright. Why don't you ? I don't know, you're sort of half dozing aren't you? Mm. Have another little bit of your drink, Amy will you come and read a bit of your book to me? Pardon? Can you read a bit of your book? You have a rest, I mean that's all you can do really isn't it? What a nuisance. Pardon? Is there anything on T V later? Well you've got the book, so No we're on this one now. The erm, the, the Derby. Saturday, well it's Grandstand all afternoon. What's on Grandstand? Mm, show jumping at four twenty five, motor racing. Is there nothing on after this? Flying Doctors, That's Show Business, You've Got To Be Joking. Is there nothing on I T V? There's a, there's an Indian drama on B B C two with English subtitles, it's in Hindi, that'll be interesting for you. Half A Sixpence, oh you'll probably quite like that, that's here. Now? Mm. Tommy, Tommy Steele, like to sit up? That's Tommy Steele. Where's the book? Mm. Here. Mm. He's a lot older than that now. Come on, you can read your book. Mm, let's wipe the tape. Puff the Magic Dragon lives by the sea. For the story of the pink The story of the pink, yes. See the little chaffinch? Pardon? See the little chaffinch? Yeah. It was . It was like autumn, Pink the chaffinch was his friend, we hurry, so they flew off to a field where the corn had been thrashed. Threshed. What's threshed? Mm, I think it's been cut and, they have to stretch it to get the actual bits of corn out of the middle of the seed, don't want the husk. Threshed , in the , E, E, A, S. In the heat. Heat of chaff. Chaff? Mm, that's what the outside of the grain of corn is called. It is and not the word . They had all the grain of which they needed for a good breakfast to finish breakfast, to finish. off the meal they eat some . Thistle. Thistle? Thistle, yes, it's a thistle. That's hard isn't it ? Yeah. Pink and, and Pink was Pink was a handsome bird, have cup His cap. His cap. Was da daler. Dull. Dal. Dull. He His cap was dull. Blue. Blue. And his back was brown and his chest was a lovely rosy brown, there. Mm, it's a pinky brown isn't it? Mm. He had buns. He had Bands. Bands. of white of his wings. On his wings. Mm, and when he blew he showed off more white feathers in his tail and little hen chaffinch always keeps near to Pink. She was quite dark, she had no rosy breast and not a song worth, what's that say? Not a song worth Worth singing. Pink took at very little boy not notice. notice of her, who's Pink? The chaffinch isn't it? Why's he called Pink? Mm? I didn't know he was called Pink. Ah, winter came and it rain much colder, snow fell and covered everything Pink Covered everything. Pink. and his friends could not find any of the seeds they liked to eat, they, they were hungry now and eat glad Gladly. gladly and The the corn Crumbs. crumbs. A fat,came. Fat. Kind people put out for them, they were expecting Especially. especially glad when people put out dishes of water. Why? everything is frozen over they don't get any water do they? Oh it's a long story that one. Mm, I want to read all of it. Pink's beautiful feathers grow dull, why did they grow dull? Again he's probably not eating the right things. And dirty in all the rain and fog. He longed for the white spring days, at last the morning were light At last the mornings were lighter. were lighter. The began to see to each other, I believe winter has gone, some of the days were quite warm and Pink started to pressured? To practice. Practice the song he knew. They were not very good at the, he had forgotten all the best bits. Then it really was spring the apples orchard was in flower. Pink, Pink shouted the chaffinches to each other, oh Pink what a day What a lazy. lazy fellow is could lean Never. never , get to his singing as early as the blackbirds, the As, as early as the blackbirds and thrushes. thrushes, but ever Even. even so he was singing l long before spring Sun. spla Sunrise. rise he lovely, loved Loved. to sing and from time to time all from All through. through the day, his Call. call rang out. Why did they have pink on it, that's why it's called Pink? Mm. That's why he's called Pink, I think. He loved bathing. Bathing. Oh bath bathing. Well it's called bathing isn't it? You don't say I'm going to have a bathing. I'm going bath, I'm going bathing. Bathing to the winter fog. Did you find it? Yes. He made his feathers dirty so he liked So he looked. For. for one of those deep puddles made by the spring rain. He dripped his He dipped. he, he dipped his head, that's what I said Mm. under the splash Under and splashed. the water all over his self with the wings, with his wings, then he flew up into a tree to tie Tidy. tidy his feathers and dry in the sun. His feather grow white every day until his breast was a good all colour. Pink thought to himself I very fine bird. He, and, he wanted a friend to admire him Mm, good girl. and listened to his songs, he every He even. He thought of making a nest I think that's for little babies isn't it? Yeah. What you say? He lady. They're not the same birds Mm, I think they're supposed to be. cos that ones horrible and dirty with Well that's the lady bird and they're never so pretty as the men birds. Aren't they? No, not the birds. Why? It's always men that have the pretty colours. Are you going to read this page? One day he remembered the hen chaffinch thought That. that had flower That had flown. flown with him in the nest In the. in the winter and She. she was nice so, she would admire his fine colours and did not seem much herself, so, she wanted So she would. would listen to him, she is a wife I want Pink thought. Thought Pink, the little hen was pleased, she too wanted to make a nest. Pink took her to the garden and showed her the rose arch. Mm. Look, oh yes that's it, dear. Look my dear. My dear, he said, this seems a good place for a nest. Why does it seem a good place for a nest?. Don't think she thinks much of it. He no nobody Nodded. Nobody She nodded. nodded but looked at an apple tree over the hedge. The next day they began to build the nest in the apple tree. Is that the apple tree? No, here's the apple tree, I think that's the rose arch, but she didn't think that was such a good idea, and she was probably quite right. Pardon? She was probably quite right. This one . Yeah, here we are. The little hen worked all day getting moss and wood and bind up those These. These put in a heap with Where. where two branches met. When they When they're. there were Enough. enough to set it She sat. there was enough, she she sat in flat of it and pushed herself r round and round, soon then there was . Was shaped. shaped like a cup with bright She bought, brought. she brought more moss still and pressed into shape with in the same way. Turning herself round and round Have we nearly finished? Yes you nearly finished. Good. Mm. I wish you wouldn't keep trying Turning. turning round and round like that said Pink. You make me feel quite dizzy. Don't watch then she answered chaffinch Cheerfully. cheerfully, why don't you sit in the tree and sing to me, when all the moss and, was in place the chaffinch went to find her hair. Horse hair Horse hair. What's horse hair? What, horse hair from the horses tail I should think. Horse hair. Horse hair for lying For the lining. lining the inside of the nest. What's that? Can I keep Mm, make it nice and soft I should think. It's beautiful sang Pink, how well it shows up Greg's Against. against the branches. Shows up said wife, little and With a, with a little . with a little , mummy Green. Green Don't want it to show up, does she. Why? Well cos then it will be obvious and cats might come up and get the eggs or something. it must do. It mustn't do that. Do that. She doesn't want it to show up. Why, he looks a bit sad. I don't think he's doing very much do you? No. I think he's letting his wife do all the work. Yes. She flew to an old gate and picked And pecked. pecked of picked Pieces. pieces of grey Lichen. lichen. Those she took, shook Stuck. stuck on saves watching Half a Sixpence. Oh is she . Yeah, well, hm, don't think she's up too much, so, got Tommy Steele in it so she might as well he looks a bit younger . Does he? About twenty years ago, wasn't it? Yeah,. Right, shall I go and get. Yeah. Changed. Yeah. Lucky on it, it'll be quite nice. Yeah. See what it looks like,How are you pet? This quite good? Well, about your level today isn't it? About your hm. Need watering a bit, have those back up there and really you seem even worse than oh were going to go and do your bedroom. Try and get that drink drunk. Yep do we want the stuff to fill the holes with? I don't know whether we did really to be honest, don't worry,. Poly filler. Poly filler and eh. Got some sand paper. I'm not going . Put it on the bed or something. Put it on the bed. Wants some poly uhum some sand paper? . Is it alright? With the uhum, the putty knife. Oh right. . Yeah. I said the putty knife. What's the putty knife? flat . What, that one? . Well I don't know, I don't know where your putty knife is. It's . It's the what? Have too guess. Well I don't know, they all look the same to me. I'm a bit upset if she's not very well though. Seems to happen. She's was alright . Hm,very well on Thursday. No she wasn't. No. And then she perked up in the evening, I think she wanted to play tennis and then she was alright Friday. I don't like these things that you don't seem to get rid off and they just come back when you least want them. Hm . I was very glad were not, we we could easily of been going to tonight. Hm We want the tape measure won't we? We must of have plenty of pencils up here I would think. have we got the we haven't got the thing to draw a straight line have we? Is that. That's in the, that's in the box in the corner. What in that bluey what the box a box or uhum in your little cupboard. Hm in the kitchen cupboard. Yeah. Oh it's quite useful that Half a Sixpence is on. Yeah, they both watching it? No Amy won't watch television. What she doing? Playing with her marbles. Right . I must get round to getting end of uhum curtain material. Yeah . Yes, I quite like that pink and white stripe one. I quite like somewhere I could get uhum a cover for the bed to match. Look quite nice wouldn't it? . We'd better measure it on the other wall, hadn't we? It'll be wet. Yeah . Let's see. Tape measures there some where. So we have to do that. Oh better measure other. What's it twenty one? Twenty and a half. . uhum, couldn't you go up in the other corner. . I can't cos that's left handed for me. . I can work that way, I've got to go the other way. . Can't you unhook it? Does it unhook at the end? get the right length . And then it goes up under any way. Twenty should be alright and just half an inch to go round the corner. Well it's certainly different paper. Yeah. Hm But it's quite good paper because it's got all the colours in it so you could put any thing with it can't you? Yeah . I didn't think . You thought this was a big bedroom till you started trying to get. . Amy Johnson's a funny little one. She was a,going to see Joseph's. Yeah. Dream Coat next week end. Yeah. And she said, with Jason Donovan, I said oh do you like Jason Donovan? she said oh yes I've seen that with Jason Donovan. Oh she said I've seen Jason Donovan in that, so I said well I don't think you have cos it didn't start till today. Yeah. I have, I saw it a while ago with daddy. Yeah. I said yes, but I don't think it was actually Jason Donovan, oh it was, yes, it was Jason Donovan and I've got the paper all along, I give up in the end . Yeah Very definite young lady . Is she?. Oh yes, ooh she wasn't going to have it that we were going to see it, cos she hasn't seen that particular one. Do they, get on alright together? Well, yes I think so. Yeah. I don't think Amy Johnson will be over pleased that she that Amy get's better than she is , no. She is . But Amy's very tactful so I just didn't say any thing. Yeah. No she's quite, well I told her not to. I mean this, the children are two young to have there noses rub with it, especially Amy Johnson, that wouldn't go down well, but eh, she's quite good, she doesn't sort of. . Can you measure it down that one or. Yeah. Is it going to stick?. . You know what the . I presume that that's the top wouldn't you? At the beginning of a roll, and I would almo In both ways or. Yeah, I would almost say that upside down, there seems to be more flowers going down than up don't they? The pink ones going down, the blue ones going down. . Does it look better the other way up does it? . Don't you? Yes. I think the majority. . Alright. . Yeah, I think some one way, some the other, look lovely. . Yeah. It's not a very big pattern drops any rate. It is different paper isn't it? Yeah. Thank you. Her mummy was saying, you know Michelle, aunty Monica's daughter. Yeah. There in dire straights now. . Pardon? In what respect, financially? Yeah, they think there've got to sell the house and get out. Why's that? Why, they owe six thousand pounds on the various cards. Cards? Yeah, huh, I think there way behind on the mortgage. does Michelle work? Well she did work full time in London, but she said that was to much for her so she's, she didn't work at all, now she's gone back to work three days a week in Orpington I think. She's got what, two children. Yes, but Ross gave up his job as a uhum, he was in with the Leeds, which was a bit stupid because he must of got a cheaper mortgage I should think. Yeah. To become an insurance sales man. Oh. And of course I don't think he would do any good at it, his quite a quite, shy. . And I mean it's not easy at the moment any way, is it? No. Even for the pushiest But I mean, they've they were owing money years ago, they sort of said there having Christmas on Access. oh it's a shame when you lose your house though isn't it? Yep. . Yeah, this is the top. Ah, I reckon that sticks a lot better, doesn't it? be easier to tear I think. Yeah, it's not very thick, well it's got no strength in it has it? No. But uhum, it sticks, whilst the other one just curls straight back up at the edges didn't it. Yeah. Dreadful. But doing this, you know, what ever it's like, it, the other one was hopeless Be interesting this one. Yeah, at least you get a bit more of a how long you got a you got a , I mean I couldn't cope with , I mean I'm not pleased with it now I've done it. No. Otherwise it get's sore, but then every time I walk in there I can see every joint a lot better. Mind you, you just have to learn, you can only, you've got to put the paper up that sticks haven't you? Hm. Got a sort of sheen on it hasn't it? Hm. And there not that small any more are they? I mean, you know there not going to go round with a felt tip pen. No. There better not. . Hm. Yeah I'll have it that way, I don't like it the other way up. Most of the flowers are the wrong way. Darling there is a joi a pattern. . Well it isn't for me. . . And then you fold, you paste the bottom first, then you fold that up. Well I thought wall paper ought to stick because wall paper was on Amy's bedroom. Yeah. You know, ordinary wall that was just, just wall paper wasn't it? Yeah. And eh that just stuck and the joins were alright It just took so long before as well didn't it. It did. Can I have the scissors? Thank you. I mean I not very happy with the lounge either. No I'm not. Just glad we didn't do the hall. Driven me mad that would. Or our bedroom. Pardon. Or our bedroom. Hm Funny though I mean I've never known problem before. No. It's not as if the house is terribly old or any thing that the plasters, even . It isn't just the plaster is it,. Yeah, it was all the new walls as well. I mean it hasn't done it any good all the in Amy's bedroom where where it had to put the copydex it's all got brownish and, hasn't it? you can see where the. . Hm, yeah, it's not, it's not quite the same colour, you can see where the copydex has been. Well it doesn't like vinyl paper for some reason. No, it'll dry out . Yeah It wasn't that it wasn't the lumps that bothered me it was the uhum, the fact that the edges just doesn't stay down. Yeah. I think I might cut another piece of paper, the side won't stay flat. Huh, I'm quite please about that. Annoying when your not pleased with when you spent all your time doing it and then your not pleased with it . Yeah . Splendid. Yeah.. . Yeah I thought, just thought you might want to get behind it. Ga- Gary's off the . Hm, well he doesn't tell me either. . Well you probably lose a bit, it's not sticking properly to the wall. Is that when you take it round and eh . Take what round? What, you know, round the corner, and keep it straight. oh I see what you mean. Another one after that rather than cutting . where you've got some in there it won't matter. No. You're alright. Right. Nowhere near, half I should think. Oh dear. Come on at it. So matches this side, not to low, it's to low on the other bit,. Is it? Hm Watch your elbow on that cos you could knock it off couldn't you?. What . Hm Hm, hm. Thank you. Is Clare still awake? Did you go down? Yeah, yeah, she's a. Right, I mean that's the time when a video is useful. Right. She's not really well enough to do any thing is she? No. It's it's a bit boring for her just to lye there. Got video's down here a hundred and fifty pound . . I don't really know how much we we use it really. No, no, I mean I wouldn't a video to . I mean I mean during the week she never, she's going to get to the stage except that Chris is taking Amy to ballet, she won't see Neighbours at all. . No. Don't want to come down too hard on her. She misses it on Monday cos she goes to flute, she misses it, she wa- she sees it on Tuesday cos Chris takes Amy to ballet, she was, she misses it on Wednesday cos she goes skiing, she misses it on Thursday because we have to take Amy to uhum Brownies, she misses it on Friday cos of Amy's swimming. . No, no she doesn't want to watch, I thing honestly when she comes home from school she's tired out. Yeah. But, you know she just puts it on, she doesn't want to do any thing for a hour or so and just sit and recover. I don't think you can really grumble. Has she not I mean she never watches it after tea if you notice, she'll always go out and play or something. I know. She'll watch it half an hour in the evening before she goes to bed if she gets the chance. She doesn't watch all that, she doesn't watch all that much really I think she gets more tired than Amy in a way. Hm.. I think Clare lives more on her nerves. Hm. And that when she comes home, cos she's you know, had enough. Are we going that way next? Well I . , this is when you'll need a plumb line for that won't you? Yeah. Is it a very good plumb, oh you've got plumb line for the top and the bottom haven't you?and hope. . Ah and the next piece is going to go over the window. Yeah. So you need it. Yeah. It down to get the line at the bottom . Yeah , yeah.. You won't . Oh it's quite pretty. That's about right cos you wouldn't want a big pattern in a room this size would you? No. . I tell you what, eh you wouldn't get any. twenty. Yes Steven's not having a particularly good week for his holidays is he? No he isn't.. Yeah. I wouldn't be at all impressed with it. Oh Deborah was moaning cos she went to a party the other last one this week, I think at the beginning of the week, and the had Joey the clown and Mr Nuttey, she said oh I'd like them, but Sue said she went sort of a bit earlier and see how they got on and eh, she said oh it wasn't the same at five, they didn't respond and. Yeah. You know they were much quieter, it didn't go with a swing that Amy's. How old is Clare, she's a bit older? She's six. She has it six, seven and eight. Yeah. Cos she said she thought, you know, they needed to be a bit older. Yeah. I mean she's talking about it and I said well I thought at five they were probably a bit young. Hm. We haven't, we didn't have it till they were six. Deborah apparently wasn't pleased. That's right,. How are you then pet? Hm. You've got a bit of colour back now. Hm. Could you could you manage another drink? What was sue on the phone for? She want's the uhum eh the plates and things for the party. When she . A bit later on. Said she was very sorry. Hm. Whole poached egg in Mummy, mummy look. Mummy. Oh poppet obviously going to . Can I . Yeah, she looks as though she's got a bit more colour and she says she feels a bit better. . Oh I think you better cut, she's watching Kipps, says quite good, Half a Sixpence, she says it's quite good. Enjoying it. Would you like to come and cut this bit, cos it's left handed. Which bit? The top. Yeah . Oh That bits left handed. I can't, I can't left handed with right handed scissors can I? Oh no, no, you seem better at left handed than I did. Right, is that level? Yeah? No, I don't mean that, I mean here. Oh there. I not the top. It's gonna brighten up now. Yeah it is. Well it seems to me, if you cut it, if you put that one there, then this other piece, it'll use to do in there. What other piece? Well, if we cut a piece round there. Yeah. And the other piece that we got could do that one, that piece in there. Ah, you not, yes, alright. Ok . Well I mean half a bottle to do the top and the down, you can do that bit, measure if you like. Yeah, ok, if you can measure it, then I can cut off... Can't tell whether that's going to reach or not. I don't think it is, I think, no, I think you've got to come down another pattern. Oh that one down then . Got what you want? Yeah. . Couldn't really see in the corner whether it was going, so tight. Shall I go and get the other scissors out of the cut the right side. Yes. Okay. Right, now you've got a bit to match it with. Yeah, that looks. Well that bit was wrong. What bit was wrong? That bit. Why was it wrong? Well it's the wrong pattern, up side down for a start, with the other piece of Right, so I have to . Hm Well your on that side and it's half an inch too short isn't it? Let's have a go with a this roll down here then. Haven't much choice have you? No I haven't. Where I'm going to sleep? Your going to sleep wall paper. No I'm not . sort of sort of just North of that Blue one. Sort of across there and then. Across there. Hm. . I know it's not the easiest thing to measure is it? Hello Hello how what do you think? It's nice. It goes on a lot better than Amy's. Does it? Yeah. Do you like their suit. What? Do you like their shell suit? Like whose? Deborah's and Catherine's? Am I sleeping in here? Yeah. Or not up there? Yeah, I mean wallpaper, you don't have to stay away from it. Didn't you, I mean, it's not like paint. There what d'you think? Gone up quite well. Pardon? It's gone up quite well. Yeah. You can see the joins though . Well you won't so much when it's dried. Hm. You can't see them very well.. You've still got the tape recorder on. I know Oh I've got to get these tapes used up. All of them? Oh no, I don't think I should use all of them, about half of them I should think. Ten, how many you on? Seven I think. Eight,eight. Does it? Oh well, I'm on eight, I've done seven. I've only got to do it to the end of today so, I don't think I'm going to use twenty do you? No. Oh, fed up with this aren't you? Hm What's doing in my . He's written Clare's room, wallpapered on the first of June, that's a bit optimistic, by Helen and Alistair. I done that writing. Probably. What daddy's like. Anyway makes it look a little smarter doesn't it, than with a green carpet, it'll look nice, yes. I can't choose another carpet can I? No. It looks better all the same colour instead of some walls green, some walls white. Yeah. So I assume Half a Sixpence is finished. Was it good? Yeah. Quite a nice film. It's a weird story. I had to do that for O'level. What? That story. Writing? No I had to study the book. Why? Well for English literature they set you so many books to study, that was one of them. a stupid book . questions . Yes, from all the characters and Pardon. From all the characters and how they fitted into the story. Did you pass? Only just . I don't like that book at all, it was a book. What other books are there? You have a Shakespeare play, you had Silas Marner I think I quite liked that one. I had one of J- uhum, oh I can't remember his name, another play. George Bernard Shaw. Hm,. Thought that was fairly silly as well. That was four, I think that was probably all I had, two books, two plays, it's quite enough. What're you having for dinner? Chicken casserole, and you can have a little bit. . Well you look better than you did, you've got some colour in your face now. I'll have a tiny bit. You can have a little bit of something to eat Hopefully I'll be better tomorrow. I hope so poppet. Hope to get you back to school on Monday, it seems awful if you've had a week off and then your not well. Yeah. This was all a bit sudden, I though you were better. Hm Have you finished yet? Well I need daddy to a start along there . Why can't you? Well the light has got to come off and you've got to drop a perpendicular so that you know, cut the paper straight, it helps if you put it up straight instead of wonky. Pardon? What did she say? Why, she want's the crates and the things for the party. . Well she, I told her you weren't very well, she was very sorry Didn't say a lot else. . Well not really, yet at the moment. We might need it yet to do another bit. You got enough roll's? I don't know yet. I shall tell when we get to the end.. Want to come down stairs? I'm all dirty, I was really waiting for daddy to come back up. . . If I go down that'll be even more ages won't it? Why? Hm cos I shall have to talk as well There's nothing on T V. Isn't there? Don't think so . No. What do you think? Can't decide whether I like those shell suits or not really. What? I can't decide whether I like those shell suits or not, you know, sort of thing. Colour you mean. No, I meant in general. . I think. I don't like the . Hm. . I think a lot of them have, has Amy's got a hood? No. Hasn't it? . Hm. The uhum, C & A's has a lot of them, went down there looking for some shoes for Amy. Did you get . No, she wanted some flip flops, but they didn't have any there either, but they had a lot of shell suits, cos I thought it was skiing ones at first. Hm. I thought they were skiing one's at first, and then I . . There suppose to be quite warm I think. I think there wind proof aren't they? The chain,. No, don't worry. Pardon. I wouldn't worry, I think they can sort it out. I don't think it's gonna last her long cos she pulls at it. Does she? Why? Cos she doesn't leave any thing like that alone, does she? . Well she pulls, fiddles with any thing, doesn't she? She got tee shirt. Catherine? Oh yeah, did before Amy. Amy Johnson's got a brace now, she doesn't speak very well with it. Doesn't she,why? I don't know, just a band, you know round, like you had in. Oh. But she lisps, it's in her way she's got , doesn't talk very clearly. . Well, she didn't have it last time I saw her, she's got it now. So I suppose she got it some time this week. . No. What's the result guv? He says money's a bit scarce at the moment. What . . Oh, well, there've just had a whole new di- bedroom suite. yes. Oh, I presume his getting paid Going to lap that over? That why he did his own decorating. . Your not getting as much of this new job. That means the car goes back on. No, I think he he says taking over the car lease. Oh. . . . Buy a new one. No matching up to do here. No not really. Is that alright? It's not far out is it? What that lot out I think. . Alright. There's too many fingers in the way isn't there? Well if we put a cut in here that might . . Oh no, I want these,. Just cut it . Where's this off -here? Hm. . Yes . . Yes, but I can't make the. You can't just pull that across, might look a long way out . It's wrong, as from there, that's where it starts to go wrong. Here. Hm . It's not easy is it? . I suppose what we should of done is, done the next one along the drop down there and then matched it all up backwards isn't it? Hm. No, we do the next one. I don't think it'll be a bad idea, I don't think I can match this one off, do you? Well it's never going to go straight and it's going to put the whole lot out isn't it? What was that? He was saying he doesn't do any so his into the eh . Well he doesn't even take it. No. . Very high yesterday. Ah yes, yeah his got two point three litres . Yeah, I bet he hasn't sort of tried to talk has he?. Right. , if you hang that one and then will put this one up too it. That one worked fine. Oh, good. Right. I think it'll probably got the other one. Do what? I think I've got another one. The other one, completing the other.. Yeah. Right. . Right, so if I cut the top of this. So I think we put the, take the other one off and paper it. . It doesn't at that section. Haven't got any underlay for her . There's gonna be wastage there isn't there? Hm. Unless there join a . Oh I think not. Got to join it across the . I suppose . can't turn it around . Uhum. the door way I think. Width of the door. And I don't , can see where your going to have a strip the width of the room and add on the width of the door on the end. So they cut it off and re-join it. Cut it off where?. Front. . Yes, I mean you've no choice you got to . Oh . Just how many joins you'd have otherwise. Well,. About . You haven't lost a . How long is it sixty feet? Seventy isn't it? Yeah. . . I mean oh use to run it length ways and then the width is fixed isn't it? Have a lot of waste. Hm. How wide is it? Well it's not ten foot wide is it? the uhum seven foot wide, I should think, it's never six foot six. So if the carpet was four foot wide you could. . . I talked to John earlier. Did he say what he'd been doing with himself? Well . . I can't remember what that . Well, yes, it's, it's quite narrow isn't it at the back. Just about get a, about three or four one. Yeah. There a replaced . Hm. Mind you there whole garden looks a bit. Hm. Bit difficult you know. No doesn't pay for the does it?. Hm.. Well there've got Michael . . It's tree. It's all along the back isn't it? . Trouble is if we don't lay a patio he . Unless he lays it behind the garage. . Hm.. What're you doing now? If it doesn't rain I'll get a bit in the garden . . If it doesn't rain I'll get a bit done in the garden tomorrow. Get some plants . Yeah. Is she, she sounds . Well they took her at the there was a I was gonna give one . Got one with a bigger bit gave . She hasn't had any thing think to eat since she had that biscuit. . Oh, it's quite hard work isn't it? I. The trouble is you know she's get and have a good go at it, it's not worth it with all the . . Cheese cake had . . No I don't think she does, I, no need for putting it off. No. She's dying to go out and play with her tennis racket. She isn't very well. No. Oh, I just hope she does get better next week. . The weather is so dreadful isn't it? . Yes. Sue said it rained on Gregory's birthday last year. Did it?. Did you say that?dead lucky, never of done last three years it's rained. Oh it was quite useful to find Half a Sixpence . No. she's not really a, sick for long. Give her any thing else? No she's . I thought for ten pence a week that was not bad rubbish. Wouldn't say a lot for it, but I don't think ten pence out of the way any way. Hm. Oh! Just see if it's speaking to me. Sometimes it just won't work. that nearly works and stick that under there. Hear it? Mhm. We hear it. We're saying nothing. Now you just have to tell me about that that peedie er shop again Vera. I don't know that it was actually a shop Aha. but I think it would in fact you'd maybe find records of it in some of the old Orkney boats. Yeah. I'm sure that's where he got it . Aha. And er it's it was just a I think a sort of supply of stuff was kept at certain houses. Mhm. So that folk maybe in the sort of parish didn't have to walk into the village to get it. To get it. Well And it well they certainly seemed to be to do with it at the burying like the the linen Yeah? and then the bows for the Aha. I suppose it would be when they well when they dressed that was the night they had a big celebration wasn't it. Aye that would be it. Mm. Was that that was that was the night or No. Yes that would the night when the body was put in the coffin . Coffin. Aye. Yes. Right. And a lot of the friends were asked to come To come Aha. Aha. Because I've had a look through all the books that there was and er there's never more than what . Mhm. Well you see So it's something nobody knows much about what were like in Orkney . but this actually came from thinking about shops. I see. And and things that that were sold you know in different places and this Mhm. small sort of shops that were well in Bremness and Aha. Mhm. And they would sell maybe the cloth Mhm. and and the what else would they sell? Well I don't know what else they had I think Ah. it was just more or less They they certainly wouldn't have food or anything like that I think it was just more or less the supplier or That would be Aha. when relatives called you see. Oh I see. And so that the folk wouldn't have to trudge into the to to buy their stuff . No but you certainly nobody no woman ever went when I was young. Nobody. And in fact women weren't Mm. No. seen at funerals. Oh is that right? Yeah the woman was never seen They went into the either the upstairs room or the kitchen or somewhere, the door was shut and that was them. Oh I see so sort of on on the funeral day they they wouldn't even be in the house . Oh no no No no And and like when anybody died, your blinds were taken down. Oh I see. And maybe a relative or a near relative would do the same. Mhm. I can Yes. mind being in in here with blinds down. And always when a funeral come down the school road, there's blinds would be taken down as well. As well as all Oh the folk in sc on the school road. Shops everything took their blinds down. A sign of respect I suppose was it not ? Yes a sign of respect I suppose. And what about bairns, would they keep them in? Oh yes Rather then Oh yes and you didn't get to go to school. I mean you were kept home. Oh! Oh is that right? Yes. You you stayed at home. I see. Oh and you would you would just get a day off for the for the funeral if it was a near relative to you. Would it be? Yes but usually you were off school right from the person died to the to to after the funeral . How long would that be? Maybe three days. Three or four days. Mhm. Three of four days. Mhm. Mhm just kind of Mhm. And then there's black clothes was worn. From top to toe. Oh yes I've heard of it. I've heard of it. That was the one thing that was that I read in the books that it was kind of tradition for the men to wear black. Mhm. Oh but the women wore black too. Yeah. And if you I mean if you maybe couldn't afford to buy a new raincoat, you would have a big black diamond cut off a piece of cloth Oh I see. and sewn on. Oh or an armband but it was usually a black diamond here that was worn. Really? Mhm. Aye and the women would wear maybe grey. Mhm. After or or a . Mhm. Mhm. Aha and what about hats? Would they have Oh well hats were worn. or or would they The funeral day they wore bowler hats. Oh really? Oh yes, the men wore I can remember my father wearing a bowler hat Oh really? Oh yes. And some of them may maybe the old women had a cap on but it was usually bowler hats. For heaven sakes, bowler hats. That's just That's with stiff white collars and Oh yes. Mhm. That's that would be a complete suit then really wouldn't it ? And would it be just kept for funerals especially. Oh well they usually had a dark suit Mhm. usually in a dark navy or Mhm so it would double as kind of a suit Oh yes it they wouldn't have just special clothes for the funeral ? No no. No. the bowler hat was special Aha. the bowler hat. Aha. Yes I can imagine that would that would be special. It wo must have been I mean that was if you to get completely new clothes every time, that would have been an amazing expense wouldn't it . Oh no usually dark clothes. Mhm. Yeah. Yeah. You know. Ah. Well I suppose that's still a bit true. Yes. try and wear the dark clothes . Oh yes yes. Mm. Yeah. Mhm. So would it would it almost be two parts to a funeral then? A and a a burial. Was it the both both Oh yes Yes they don't now? No but Sometimes. Well well the undertaker Yes. Oh no there's no no report filed in like Mm. You see before there would be no women at the funeral so the women would maybe be No. you know they would come actually at that rather than funeral day . Mhm. Aha. So what what was the ? What you call a wake? Would that be the same ? Well yes, something the same. Mhm. Mhm. So were folk actually invited to that before? Really ? Yes yes Cos that's something that's completely Aha. changes and who were the invited? I read somewhere there was something called bidding? Just bids Near relations I suppose. Aha. Yes. And some would maybe just arrive if they thought they should be there. Oh I suppose so . Yeah. Mhm. And would the minister be there too? No. No. No. That would Not at the No no. Aha. That would just be the near relations then? Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. The undertaker And then they would all stay for tea or whatever. Mm. Yeah. Mhm. So who would arrange for the funeral then? Would it be that head of the family? or the coffin maker ? Oh yes usually. Aha. the undertaker . Oh yes I mean He maybe not Oh I think so I think they just you just contact the undertaker and he Mhm. he does everything else. Yes. He does the the main thing. Cos I did hear on Sanday that erm it was a joiner that made the coffin. And he was the joiner was the undertaker. Well that's quite often the case. Yes. Aha. Aha. And Bill that was here he was the same. He made the coffins. Yes but they don't do it now No no. No. Oh I see they don't so i No I suppose they're bought But it's still the joiner that's the undertaker. Yeah. Yes that's right. Yeah. And it was er no it was a lady on Sanday, her dad had been the joiner there and she said that erm he acted as the funeral arranger as well. Aye He did so he actually organized the funeral. But I Mhm. thought that w couldn't have been normal. I was sure that it was usually the head of the family that organized that. Well I don't know. Well But it was sto er I mean to say they told er the undertaker who they wanted. I see. At one time they'd say, Oh just bid the whole parish. Aha. And they'd be written cards put put out to everybody. Oh I see not a funeral notice ? Yeah. Oh no no. No No. funeral notice Oh I s Oh really. That's that's Oh I see. Aha. I think the first time I remember that I thought, Lord that just looked like a dance advertised through the window . Yeah it does. Yeah. That was . Mhm. So I so there'd there'd be there'd be written to and would it be special paper ? Well were posted. Mhm. You know like there was always a boy that er went round the village Mhm. and just had the card with him. Oh I see. And he had to be dressed in his Sunday best when he went round . I see. And he just knocked on the door and you just came and you read the card and that was it. I mean you didn't get the card, he just had the one card I see. Mhm. Mhm. Stewart doing that So this official card would be passed round. Mhm. so that's not so many years ago. No. Really is that right. I never n that's changed. And would this card be a a special black card or Oh yes. It was just a ordinary Aha just a aha black edge on it. Yes A black edge. Mhm. And you the wee envelopes that came in with the black edging on them. Oh yes. Mhm. Aha. I see and and the boy that would be sent round would he be one of the family or related to any No no he would just be It would just be the undertaker would usually have somebody that did that. Mhm. Oh I see so Mhm. this was something they would Mhm. arrange. Aha. I see, I didn't realize funeral notices were that new. I just thought Ah well it's a good few years for this. Well Stewart still did it. Mhm. But he would be the last of them in that did it. Mhm. Mhm. So was there a chap in that made coffins then? Oh yes. At one time yes. Oh yes. Aha. And Bill And Mhm. And sis he do it for the whole of the island or just the was did the sort of parish have their own chap ? Oh no the whole whole lot. Mhm. I see. Whole island. Mhm. . Oh yes. Oh there's two. Aye there's two. There's always two of everything. And what did they look like? Were they cos I read this wife in Sanday said that her dad covered the coffins in black material. So that you didn't Aha so they did. see the wood. Mhm. Yeah that was right. And I mind er mother the first time Yeah. it was material. Mosh? . . And er I thought it was so bonny besides the black. Yeah. Mhm. So they were mauve mauve covered here. Mhm. And would would erm the joiner do that himself then, he would do everything ? Oh yes. Yeah. And cover it was well? Mhm. Mhm. And then once I suppose he wouldn't make it in the house would he he would have it made and brought to the house . No no he would Aha. Aha. Mhm, yeah. And then there would be the and then and while it would be while the f the coffin was in the house that it was was it? Aye that's right. Oh yes I mean the wh the funeral day, you would keep the blinds down that day too. Mhm. Yeah. So so it would about four days. the next day they you went to nothing. Mhm. You didn't go to dances or anything like that. Yeah. And what about after the funeral day? Did it relax more then Oh yes. or was there a sort of spell afterwards too . Oh yes there would be you'd a year you would be supposed to be not very much . Oh heaven's Oh right. Oh yes,you wouldn't be supposed to go to a dance or corn or anything like that . Oh no. No. For about a year? Aha. By that time somebody else had died So you were you wouldn't get . So you were in in mourning just like the whole time . I can remember you wearing black forever. Black slippers, black stockings black , black hat. And mother died and then father j well mother died in nineteen forty and father died in nineteen forty one. And I can't mind what er what dates.. Mhm. I can't mind the dates. But it'll was this the time you had your black edged writing paper and black edged envelopes and No well I never that far but that was done and some would have the broad black Mhm. Mhm. letters would come from in this broad black Oh is that right? Mhm. Mhm just to mark You never see that now. Oh no. No. No that's that's completely gone by the by yeah, yeah. Folk seem to I don't know have a different attitude completely . invitations to funerals lying somewhere. used to get them sent Aye Yeah. somebody had one that Mhm. Mhm. Yeah. Mhm. What about the service? Would that take place in a church then or in the home ? No in the house. In the house. Aye the home . Yeah. And and it was always the home. Mhm and that would be the time then that the women would go upstairs or into the kitchen or Aye Aha. Mhm. funny mind, we were just speaking about funerals not that long ago and you were just saying like er you remember the , when he died, Oh yes aha. Mhm. And I mean there was they walked to . Mhm. it was a long trudge. That is a long trudge. Aha. Going from And then it would just be well it would be a horse ca hearse then . Aye yes. Yes it was a horse Yes it would be pulled by horses. Mhm. Heaven sakes And mother was the last that was in that hearse. Was that right? Mhm nineteen forty, I don't think ever after that. Aha. Is that right. Mm. Yeah. Aha. that field there. James 's? Aye stood there and mind one halloween, the boys took it and set it in front of 's door. Aha. Is that right? Yes. . they must have Oh destroyed it . Mhm. Probably right enough. So would the coffin be carried out of the house then, into the hearse. Mhm. And that would be the ma well that would be the like the closest Yes. be like the bearers would do that ? Aha. Aha. Do you ever mind them walking, carrying the coffin to the graveyard. Cos on a couple of islands the walked with the coffin. Yeah that that used to be I've seen on film I've seen that you know like in Stornoway and places like that they carried the coffins I suppose. Aha. I suppose that's where they had no roads maybe or no hearse or something . No no. No. There would always be a a hearse. Oh yes. Was that a special cart then? Oh yes. Mhm. Mhm Aha. Special. Just just used for It was c it was covered. Wasn't it, the hearse was covered in? Yes it was just a Mhm. black coach you know with glass Something like a coach. Oh I see. Mhm. Yes just like a coach. Mhm. Driven with horse driven. Mhm. Mhm. And would the undertaker drive it? No. It was always a Well it was somebody who could work horses I suppose . Somebody well it was Magnus Bruce that used to drive it. Cos well I Ah. Magnus Bruce. don't know why. I don't know but he used to drive it. That would be Robert 's grandfather. Oh heaven sakes yeah . I think he I think he drove it. Mhm. Mhm. So would this be just a a this hearse be just a black cart with glass and then a hood? Be quite, nobody would fit in it? Or did No no there's just Yes Mhm. Mhm. I see. Yeah. Mhm. And then it would be Then would the mean follow the hearse? Yes yes. Yes. Mhm. Right to the graveyard and then it would be Aha. It was a long day you know. Yes it would be. some of them forgot to come back at night. They used to . Oh I see. Mhm. Consolers. Yes. And what times would funerals normally be? In an afternoon? I don't know. Twelve o'clock usually . Twelve o'clock? Yes. Twelve o'clock used to be a great well as far as I can remember. Mhm. It was twelve o'clock the funeral was a usually at. I see . And now it's usually two. Aha. That's right it's moved to the afternoon. well twelve before they walked the distance and got back again. Aha. That's well that's right. They'd be following the cart so it would be going slow wouldn't it. Yes. Aha. Mhm. And er the minister would be at the house? Or would have to would he ? Was the minister at the house? Whether he had to walk or whether I don't know. But he would be at the house anyway wouldn't he ? Oh sure. Yeah. Aha. And old Mr our minister he he used to by pony and trap. Aha. But I remember he never had a trap or anything. Mhm. Mhm. Yeah so he wouldn't have a tra And then they would So it would start I suppose folk would start arriving at the house quite early in the morning . Oh I would think so. Mhm . And then they'd have the funeral at twelve and then they would walk. Mhm. Right. And then was did they come back for tea at the house? No no that wasn't done then. I see. That's is that a new thing then? Yes. Er Mhm. I don't remember anybody coming back here Mhm. Not So the women weren't staying at home in the itched to make things for or to back or anything ? Oh no there was nothing of the kind no. Mhm. I see. And and they wouldn't be in the procession either ? Oh no no. No no No no . No. Yes it'd be just be the men at the graveyard . Mhm. Cos in apparently the women attended too. But I've Yes. Yeah But I've never Yeah. attended as well. Oh is that right? that the women went there. But Mhm. how long ago that was I don't know. Mhm. they certainly went there long before they did down here. Mhm. Mhm. That's right. I see. And even still, there's not an awful lot of women go to funerals here . No no. You don't see it right enough. Not really. And then but it was seen as okay that the men could go to the pub after a funeral? Oh yes. Er that was Mhm. Aha. Yeah. Quite condoled. Mhm. So that's that's quite interesting too. Cos I wondered if funerals would would wo have been seen as another sign of disrespect. To have alcohol at it. But it doesn't seem to have been . Oh no no. And the wake would that always be The would that always be an evening thing? Always an evening thing yes . Yes. Aha. Aha. Yeah. Whereas the funerals was a whole day. Aha. Yeah. That's right. Well that's we've got quite a lot that's that's brilliant . you see none of that's written down because nobody No. knows that. No. Er nobody knows that. Did they have wreaths in them days? Oh that's the other thing I meant to ask it was home-made wreaths. Home-made wreaths. Yeah, the people, what did they make them out of? Well evergreens. Oh I see. Oh I see. Well if there was flowers in Aha. growing at that time, it would have flowers stuck in. Aha. But it was evergreens I can mind mother making them. Aha. Oh really. Oh yes, I can mind mother Would it be gorse and wire and Well er just wire and they just laid evergreens you know and one and just them and them and made a circle and a Aha. everyday stuck them in. Oh yes. Mhm. So would every family make a wreath if it was you know somebody c near them, they'd make their own . Oh yes. Yes it was Yes make a wreath you know and send Mhm. . Yes. Oh heaven sakes cos that's that is a a new thing plastic flowers. Couldn't possibly have been there in the old days . Oh no no never saw any plastic flowers then. No. But when evergreens you know was bonny white evergreen you know Yes. Mhm. and made a bonny wreath. Mhm. Aha. white on it. Yeah. And just a small leaf on And just a small leaf Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. I know they make wreaths just like you're meaning in Germany f at Easter. Aha. A woman I was staying with made a wreath like that Aha. specially for Easter and it was just exactly like you said. Aha. Wire and she twisted them. Twisted lay on and twist it and lay on you know. Aha. But it took her it used to take her quite a while I suppose it would take couple of hours to make a bonny wreath would it . Mhm. Yes it would Well I can mind us making a wreath at school when Miriam died, that was the only only body I ever remember dying when I was at school. Mhm. Yeah. And we eight maybe took meningitis and died Mhm. And I can remember we went and gathered violets. Bunches and bunches of violets. Mhm. And they were tiny and we tied them in wee bunches and it was Miss who was the teacher then and she made a cross and put Oh how nice. Ad we tied on these bunches on the cross. Mhm. And we went away up to to gather the violets. Heaven sakes. Mhm. Mhm. It's just been such, it's obviously been a thing that affected the whole community Mhm. Yes. That's what It seems that you don't It seems to affect the immediate folk and not many other folks nowadays . never wore anything but black from that day to the day she died . Oh really? Is that right? Mhm. Never had a colour on her again. Heaven sakes. No. No that's erm quite Mhm. Cos nowadays if you if you did something like that folk would say you'd gone a bit funny. Mhm. They would say it's really affected you . Mhm. colour again. Mhm. Yeah that's just that's sad really. Mhm. Very sad. Yes that that is interesting. The other thing I was wondering is about the grave-diggers. nowadays they're at the side of the grave ready aren't they. Aha. After funerals. Was that so in the old days do you know? Or d I've no idea about that what they did at the grave? Yeah. Cos you wouldn't be there you see No. It wouldn't be wouldn't be done. Mm. Well I know they're not allowed to dig down like what they used to do. I mean before they went quite a depth down sometimes. be two layer down. Yes well you see they're not allowed to do that. Oh! Cos you see and they could fall in. Oh I see. There'd just be one of them there. But you see it's jut new regulations and a lot of the graveyards were on sandy ground and they'd be quite liable Mhm. to cave in. Yeah. So this is the that you're going over so much. Otherwise they'd have had had Oh I see. had this shored up. Mhm. always used to be sort of double depth down but they're not any longer. That's true. Mhm. Cos that's right it was quite traditional to put folk Mhm. kin, husband and wife and maybe Mhm. a bairn or something all in the one. Mhm. That's right, I mind that. Well all this new the regulations are fairly new I think about Mhm. Cos there wasn't a regulation afore about how deep they had to be. No. So or anything like that. I mind that right enough. Yeah. Well that is very interesting, that's helped me a lot. a bit for the for the archive. Bits and pieces. Bits and pieces. See if this grave-digger knows any more. I bet he won't know much more than that . I would think every community would have sort of customs of their own to a certain degree too wouldn't they. Yeah. Well this is that's what it says there too, it diff Doesn't it say there it's different Yes. in Orkney but nobody knows what was different . Mhm. Mhm. Nobody knows what was normal and what was different. But if it's true about the women going to funerals in , that's certainly different. Yes. That's right. Aha and maybe in in . That's that's certainly a a big big difference. Mhm. From what from what would be here. Indeed. But that about the shops I I never knew. That you might have shops for Mhm. for that things but I suppose right enough. That would be quite different. listen if that worked. Words of wisdom. What we need to do now is make them look interesting and we do that using the what is called formatting options. And those are actually listed on page eight. So essentially, what we're going to be doing are going through er the lessons that are actually outlined in page eight and page nine of your booklet. Now one of the features of Microsoft Word is that a only lets you work with text which is what is called selected and if you actually move the cursor down a bit so that it's not at the beginning of a document and then we'll follow our way through these various selecting text keys which are outlined in that paragraph, section three six one. So we u , if we use function key F seven we move through the document one word at a time backwards and F eight is the complimentary key to that we move through the document one fa word at a time. So, just try that. So as we go through we're acc we er accepting one word at a time. Now F nine doesn't do what it says here actually, that's a an error on my part. If you hit F nine it selects the current sentence. I've actually lost the middle bit of my book! There it is! Right! So, F nine selects the current sentence that you're in. F ten takes you through the document one sentence at a time so you can work your way through the document one sentence at a time. So it's not actually a next paragraph, it's one sentence. Unbelievable isn't it! So you're okay so far? Well mine doesn't seem to go through the . Does it? Yeah. For F nine. Yes, true! It is one paragraph at a time, so it is correct. I hope so. I was having a job to recognise what was a pa er, a paragraph as far as Microsoft Word is concerned is the space between two hits of the return key, okay? Whereas a sentence is is the space between er the beginning of er er between two full stops. A new way of using the English language when you're word processing is absolutely another world! Okay. Erm if you go shift F nine, or shift F eight it goes through the document, I think, one sentence at a time. Yep! And shift F seven takes you back through the document one sentence at a time. Shift F nine selects the current line, we've not er stated I think. Yeah, shift F nine er accepts the current line where the cursor is, is located. And probably the most useful key of all when you're doing global formatting, is shift F ten and you select the whole document. So if you wanna select all the text you've written,she shift F ten selects the whole document. And essentially, you only will change the appearance of the text which is appearing in your vers video. So if you actually want to italicize something, you want to make it bold, you le you have to select it first and then you can carry out the tha , the function. So, if everybody selects the text that they wan of their document and we'll just play around with it show you what a mess you can actually create using these formatting keys! So everybody have document and hit shift F ten and they're on page nine now if we go, hold down the alt key and type B and you'll just see er a shimmer go down the screen an then you don't actually see anything, but if you alt U, everything appears underlined alt K converts everything into small capitals alt S, strikes through everything and alt I italicizes all the words. If you don't press your arrow you'll see what a mess you've created in your document! You've made the text bold capitalized, struck through, underlined, and totally illegible! So you've now actually taken all that nice typing that you've done and rendered it totally illegible! Fortunately, this is not permanent. So if you select all the text again, shift F ten, and press the alt space bar, then all of that formatting is removed and it takes you back to your text as it was. So, from basically making it totally illegible you're back to where you started. So what we've been doing is we've been taking words and we've been changing their appearance. We've underlining them, italicizing them, whatever this is what is called character formats and these are eliminated or removed with the alt space bar. The next set of features that are actually mentioned erm relate to the way in which paragraphs are laid out. So, if we actually have everything highlighted again and we'll actually not follow the list as in the book we'll, if you type in alt C all your text moves to the centre go alt R everything moves to the right and alt L again it takes you back to left justified. So now we're altering the space the words actually placed on the page. Go alt N and you can see what's happening is your text is actually being indented one tab stop at a time so it ends up as a narrow thin ribbon of text skating down the page and if you do this really crazily you can end up with a document that is only just one word wide! It's a great way for producing long banners or waste paper but And if you wanna actually reverse this process alt M takes it back the other way. And if you get fed up of moving text one tab stop at a time if you go alt P you then actually remove all of the paragraph formatting that you add and it takes you back to your starting position. So when you got paragraph formatting you can eliminate paragraph formatting with alt P. Now has anybody actually got themselves in a total mess? Few few hoots of laughter from the back! Let's try another one, is it, go in text highlighted try alt T do you know what happens there? You wha , create what is called hanging indent. Your text and your paragraphs are indented by one tab stop but accept the first line. So we have, looked something like our in our conclusions, you'll find the alt T is actually quite useful because you can go down in your first line move to the first letter o , after the number, hit the tab key and you've actually lined up the first line along with the rest of your paragraph. So you produce nice numbered lists, looking very neat! Okay? Everything is lined up underneath the tab stop. Now this kind of ordering text on a page if you're using a typewriter takes quite a lot of skill but if you're a, with a word processor it's actually quite easy. Honest! Right! Oh! Have you got yourself into a total er Yes . Right! Okay. Go shift F ten or select now go alt P and cancel all paragraph formats. If you will just wait it takes a bit of time to get back where you want. Ah! Yeah! So however a big a mess you make of things however big a mess you make of things everything is usually retrievable. So rarely can you actually mess up a document in such a way that is totally irretrievable than the way in which things look. It's not coming right over . Yeah. Right, fine! Can't get anyway. Go alt space bar should be it. So this is fun learning to format! If you got mice i , you can also make things easier by actually moving that arrow around until you get to the individual word that you actually want to find and actually then you stop your cursor there. So, if you've got a mouse you could actually help speed up a lot of this editing but, I said, I've not written in the mouse commands into this schedule because we didn't actually have mice on all work stations when this was written. So, as I go round I'll show you erm, how to use the mouse er a as as and when it becomes er appropriate. So what you'll have to do now is go back to erm page eighteen I guess, no haven't got page eighteen have we? I keep on losing bits of my document! Yeah, I should get one that yeah page ten, it says return to your letter and essentially i it tells you all the various formatting options that you want to apply to your document to make it look neat and tidy. So, just go through pa , the er commands on page ten and follow the instructions. And you should actually then produce a letter which is neat and tidy and worthy to send to to Doctor and not to your cat! And just to prove that some students have got the hang of this this is a letter that er David produced and, it actually looks quite good! So, he's only had the same length of time doing this as you have so, by the end of the afternoon you ought to be in the position to print out a really neat final version of of of the letter. One that you'll be proud, proud of. Can I borrow a book, please? Yeah sure. Also, if anybody's not actually paid me for their book that they actually purchased last week, I'm open to accept payment today. So is anybody in immediate problems at the moment or you're o Okay, so, I'll, it's your chance now to do some work then for the next twenty minutes or so. Can you accept payments next week? Yes. I'll go on accepting payment until the course finishes okay? I'll keep reminding you. Oh, is it possible to Sir! Copy one disc onto another disc, how come I've done that? And why is it ? You want the file off? No, why? I seem to have gone into this exactly the same somehow. Well if you copied all the files over. Well I haven't though. I ju I jus I haven't been asked to. But I wonder if I've done something copied one to six. I bet that has. If you go into DOS right! So you go into A cos we've got that disc in. Yeah, that's the one that I keep . Oh. Then just ask it to list all the files on that disc. Yeah. Yeah? And then there's the next one. Oh right! And that now will list the same files on that disc Right. and in fact it is more or less the same but you check if some of them are missing. But then I've lost my . I've lost Well all the other things that were on this disc originally. Ee! Yeah, originally! work. That one is now on this one, there's nothing on this. And you just used all the just did that? Yeah I just did it as you said. I did a few of them . Right. Well that's alright I did that . Yeah. I mean some of your letters are there aren't they? Erm There's some of there. Yeah but that's and a couple of ones like that, and that one. That one, but I actually got onto the the server. Yeah, but that's what's on the server isn't it? Yeah. But, then, that's all your files that are available now, I think you've lost Some of them must have been on there. Have you done your boot? No, but that's on that one. This one here Oh yeah! Well I think that's happened , it's not like they dis , totally disappeared. Is there any way you can delete like the whole the at once? Yes. Right. I mean, if you want to say delete a temporary file press del for delete Yeah. then star that stands for a wild card, that'll do all files which have got the back up. Oh right! You better go and get some tea Margaret I haven't had a chance yet! Oh right! Have you not done your bit yet? I've done my bit. Yeah. Oh! Right! Come and have a cup of coffee then? with it just there. Yes . Oh have you got a pen? Oh I see . Yeah carry on. whoever listens to this first off anyway. Right, we've done it. So erm What what we've done is is is print our names in capital letters there . So you you want my name printed there? Yes please Right. thirty five Of course yeah. That's how old I am next week. It's only a approximate estimate. Well I'm only trying to find just a few more recordings for her because they're coming towards the end of the er of the contract and er And you're welcome to keep that if you like. If that's of any interest to you. Yeah. Erm yeah er that'd be quite interesting have a read through, thank you. It's a fascinating project. Now over to you. And it was a vertical blind we were That's right it's this window . Yes it was for this window. Mm. Right. Have you any particul particular colour in mind? Well I would We've never ever looked at vertical blinds before. Have we ? White I think white actually is the best colour because it Yeah, anything else I think is going to be . Well this is the book. And erm all the different erm fabrics Mm. are colour coordinated so as you can Yeah yeah. see, all the white one are at the front and they're Mm. they're all classed as white but you can see some are But some are more cream aren't they yeah. I think I want a really a as white a white as Do you want to come up to the window where you can see ? as possible cos e everything in the background is white . If I move this out of the way cos you'll need to get at Sorry. The dogs. poor dog can see the rabbit now. So erm in addition to these erm fabrics here, right at the back of the book Mhm. there's a couple more sections where erm we've got these are some of the later fabrics which were added on. As you can see th those are white probably look a Aha. bit more fancy that the the standard ones. Yeah. Okay. Can I leave you to erm have a browse at that while I measure the door ? Mm Mm. Yeah fine. What we're really essentially interested in I think is keeping the sun which tends to be very strong from there Yes. when it's a nice sunny day, out. So what we're looking for is one that will ern go erm Yes. to that angle. Right And so we we go through o er one hundred and eighty degrees. Oh they go complete through. So from Yeah. from being at this angle where you're looking directly Yeah. through it, they go all the way to the closed position that way Yeah. and the other way as well. Ah. Oh they do both? Oh th that's that's that's wonderful. Yes . That's brilliant yes. As I say we know nothing about them at all, we've never ever owned one. However I think erm y you're one the right track erm picking white out Mm. because It is going to reflect the Yes. the light yes . I've got erm I'll show the type of thing I've got. Yes. It's not it's not actually in here but I've got erm perhaps that kind of colour Mm. with more more that sort of fabric. A a a gen Erm. a thicker Yes but a similar to that but a little bit darker. Mm. And in the middle of Summer, the blind itself does get Mm. quite warm Yeah. and the heat from that then we've got an old Yeah. roller blind outside which we use erm at an angle out on to the garden Well it stops the heat. in the Summer which stops the heat Yeah. because it just takes the sun off the window. On the outside but it doesn't stop the light It doesn't actually stop the light it doesn't No. of course and it's Yes. . Well in the continent they th th they just put blinds up the outside don't they ? Put blinds on the outside or shutters . Mm. Yeah. I've seen er some nice ones in Germany, they had erm quite a very erm large sort of strong erm venetian blind Mm. Mm. on the outside Oh. Mm. And er th th they looked very nice. Yeah. Be be perfect round here wouldn't it. what we need more is To keep the rain out. Yeah, Right I'll leave you to Okay. have a browse through that. Thank you. Oh one other thing I should point out at this stage, erm on the back of some of these Yeah? you'll see various stickers. Erm as you only want one blind Mhm. Take no take no notice of those . That. Unless you wanted to do something in the kitchen as well of course. Yes. Mm. Which is a a thought. This is the kind of thing you've got to be looking for and thirty three percent off Yeah. erm fifty percent off. That that kind of thing. Aha. If you pick one of the ones without a discount sticker on it Mhm. You you might get quite a nasty shock. Yeah I'm sure I would yes . Okay. We're like a bit like M F I we've continually Yeah. Mhm. got some sort of sale on Right. And i prices alter roughly with the seasons of the year . Mm. Yeah yeah. And erm they tend to er So thirty three percent off is off the price of one? That is off that's off the price erm this this particular fabric, Right. on on on one blind. Or if you wanted But where you sees two for the price of one, you're effectively gonna be getting a fifty percent Erm It would be it would be two for the Well it actually it actually tells you doesn't it? Or fifty percent reduction . So it would be two for the price of the most expensive one wouldn't it, yeah. Or two for a hundred and fifty or Presumably that's what it would mean. You would get Yeah. two for a Yes. two hundred and fifty pounds or Wh what no matter what erm size. So we'll suddenly find this window that's thirty foot long by seven foot high and Well yes. This is the biggest window we've got . This is the biggest window in the house it's alright. They're they're quite good deals if you've got er if you've Yeah. got sort of something like a couple of Yeah . Floor floor to ceiling patio windows. Mm. I won't b Actually pr although patio windows have got the greatest erm are of glass, Yeah. they're not e when it comes to blinds they're not the most expensive Ah. blinds. The erm er width is far more important Oh I see. Mhm. pricing them up. Than than drop. And they're not always so wide. Erm for instance erm quite a I did one a couple of weeks ago erm on Avenue. Aha. And erm chap was quite surprised to find that the bedroom window worked out more than his patio. Aha. Because of the width. And it was simply because it was er Yeah. it was quite a long one. Right. And And it's the track stuff is it the the basic machinery that's the Yes it's far more number of levers. Yeah. You know and there's more part of the price is in in not so much on the materials. It's how much work Mm. goes into making them up . That's right . Right. Yeah. And there's something else I I would just point out before I measure your window. Mhm. Cos it was you said there were two or three different kinds of Yeah. track systems. Yeah we do two systems. The more common one being this one. Yeah. Erm the blind you've got two controls, Mm. You've got a chain which when you pull that, can you see these Yeah. Yeah. hooks ?that's that's the tilting mechanism of the louvre. And then there's a cord as well Which which draws them. Yeah which draws them across. Yeah. Then of course there's a there's a chain which hangs on there to prevent this this c Yeah. kind of thing what you see now. Erm this head rail in addition to white, it also comes in a silver or aluminium. Mm. And also beige as well. This is the cheaper version which only comes in aluminium Mhm. and the other difference being, instead of having the the control at the side for for drawing the blinds, you've just got this simple er string. Oh I see you just pull it along Pull them along that way. Yeah yeah. So Not quite so No. The other one works out a bit more expensive. Yeah. Yeah. And also there's erm there's er a price increase of colour as well. Mhm. Erm look at this window roughly. I I can give you an accurate price in a few minutes but roughly you'd pay about five pounds more Mhm. if you wanted either white or beige Yeah. as opposed to the aluminium. Mhm. I should think white would be the best Well white is the obvious isn't it I think for this one. finished decorating. Well shall I fish this tape measure out and er measure the window. Right let's have a look. And it's got to be one of those whites. Well it's gonna have to be the white. Do you want a textured one or I don't know. really what the main difference is I suppose. Have you been in Southwell for long? Seventeen years. Yeah. So that's is that roughly when this house was built? No no it was about twenty two. Yeah. A couple of years I used to cut across this it used to be a field on the way home from Yeah. well it was from school when I was a lad. You you you were there were you at school? Yeah. Yeah. And er lived on Gardens. Oh yeah. Er so erm as I remember it erm Drive was only half built Right. Yeah. the houses on the other side. Aha. Yeah. On the Road side, they were built erm quite a quite a while before they built the other side of the road . Right. Mhm. And it it was quite strange, it was just sort of a row of houses Yeah. And a road and then fields. Yeah. Yeah. Just like that. But as i say it was like that for two or three years. Mm. Cos it was orchard land originally I think part of ? This was actually Yeah this was this this was a field here Mm. erm erm that bit over there erm where Close is Mhm. that was an orchard. Ah. But the rest of it was just you know l you know erm At the end, the back yes, yes. Over the back It was just all all like that you know a few tress but mainly grass. Mhm. Well we were told this was the lo about the la one of the last houses to be built on this close. Yeah. But er Cos I know it was and a Yes the other side was built first too Mm. wasn't it? And down A little bit later . Yes. Just one or two people who were who were here from the start so they remembered you know th thi this was this was more or less where the builders finished off, this was about the last house they did Yeah And our front garden was a rubble. All the rubble went there . Yes th as I remember they did the other side of first. Right yes. Mm. But erm I remember er we used to play in the houses as they were as they were being built . Yeah. It's a great game isn't it? Half built houses. You had to be careful that the builders didn't catch us. That's right yeah . Yeah. Throwing throwing balls of putty to each other and a couple of them went through windows and Oh well you had a good time. Do you want a fire retardant one or just in interestingly enough, the ones that have got price offers on them aren't fire retardant. I think probably supposed to have fire retardant things these days. when you get to a window I don't know other than t the curtains won't be fire retardant will they ? No they're not are they? You know. I'm not sure what to tell you about that one. Well I'm just thinking about what's round the windows anyway. I'm quite sure that material isn't fire retardant. No. And I'm quite sure the wood isn't. Given the amount of treatment Well there you are so it's got in it. it would seem to be rather a waste of erm Mm. whatever. I'm sure it's more expensive. Do you want a pure do do you want a pure white or Right. Mm. And the only other thing to do is to look at the at matching it . But I mean that's an almost perfect match isn't it to the furniture. This is erm quite a wide window could you Yes sure. If we start at the top Right. about erm just about midway point at this Yeah. side bit. Right then is we go down about halfway. That's a little bit wider and then er the bottom as well please. Then it's back up to the top one more time. This is a cr critical measurement. Yeah. Two three six point four. Okay. Well that's defeated me cos I measured it in in feet feet and inches. Yes we're entirely metric apart from erm Yeah. in these louvre sizes. Oh. These are these are three and a half inches wide. Oh I see. And we do another one which is Yeah. five inches wide. Ah. Well quite a mixture. Do you want the curtains moved back a bit or No I'll be okay thanks. have me little pocket calculator out and . It should be about eight by five actually. Mm. But it's very critical when you're erm Oh yes. When you've got to fit things like blinds and Especially this time. Is it very uneven? Erm today. It's erm not too bad apart from just at this end. It's that end is it? Yeah. What Erm where where the wrinkle is It goes off Yeah this last bit, Yeah? it goes up by about erm Oh yeah . by about this this amount. Which would mean the headrail Yeah. it would be air-packed. Oh I see otherwise it's not going to hang you'll have to have a couple of washers Yeah. into it just otherwise it would it would bend the headrail up Yeah. which might sort of Well also the rest of it's going to look a bit weird at the bottom isn't it? It wouldn't That's right it would it would pull pull the bottom Yeah. bit up as well. It probably w probably wouldn't er run properly if No. if it was bent. Mm. Right. Which end do the controls normally come? On the right end? Er whichever whichever side you'd like. Cos you could sh I mean we've got the curtains sort of left handed, it might be an idea to have the blind pull on the left hand end as well. Yes it's a bit more difficult to get at Another thing erm to tell you is erm the blinds, they can either erm bunch in the left hand side, Mhm. Mhm. right hand side excuse me, or it can be split. Mhm. Oh I see. There's not difference in the cost on that one. Mm that splitting sounds nice. Splitting It's a good idea on a window this size . Mm. Cos it's it's wide isn't Yeah. Yes it is cos otherwise you end up with a big big Yes, on this window, if you had them all bunched at one side, it would be Take up half half one of these this sort of windows wouldn't it? Yeah quite a bit. Mm. As opposed to two like that. Yeah which is obviously better . Yeah. Were there any in particular that you liked? What well mainly what what is the I mean, these thinner ones, presumably they would do the job as well as I don't know I mean, it's keeping out What I want to do is to keep out the sun. Yes. From the furniture so They'll all they'll all keep the sun out, Mhm. But what will happen however is erm when the sun is directly on them Yeah. it'll sort of erm light them up it'll be very Yeah, Mhm. You'll have a glare. It'll very yeah, very white Mhm. erm st quite strong white glare Mm. will will come up the blind. But it will actually stop the direct rays of the sun so you know Mm. Mm. for to protect your furnishings That's right yeah. It w it'll take erm roughly about erm it'll perhaps stop about half the light Mm. coming into the room. Mhm. Erm when the when that's when the sun's directly Yes yeah cos it's really only the the worst of the sun in the middle of the day in the Summer I think that does most of the damage. Although the light does light rots anyway doesn't it. Yes. But er mm. Well it's got to be one of the pure white ones whatever. And can you tell me anything about the materials that are actually cos they don't Yes I can Are are they better heavier than light or Erm I think it's just it's just personal erm preference really It's choice is it whatever you the l the look rather than Mm. I just wondered is any of them were were going to do a better job than I think w I think when it comes down to s durability they're all Mm. pretty much the same. Mhm. Apart from there's erm there's one at the back of the book which is er machine washable. Aha. You can actually put them in your washing machine. That sounds like a nice idea. Does it? Unless erm you've got sort of Mm. a problem with a heavy smoker or Mm. a coal fire or that kind of thing. There's not much There's not much point is there ? They should go they should go for quite a number of years. Yes yes. Witho without any maintenance. Mm. Erm you know these these are the various fabrics, you know, this is what they're made from. Oh most of them are polyester . Oh they're made polyester . Mm. So they're in fact they're virtually all polyester aren't they. Yeah. If they do need er cleaning, the advice is to use erm a a very mild detergent and erm a damp cloth. Mhm. But only just damp. Yeah. Mhm so you don't soak it. Yes because they've all got erm a stiffening agent Right. Yes. in the fabric. And if they get too wet they will wrinkle. Mhm. Yeah. Mm. Well I don't know. Difficult to say isn't it. I hate being pressed for choices. Just as well to give you an idea, erm they come in they come in various price Yes. categories. Mhm. Erm with the headrail that you were looking at, it's this one and they come they go from er one to six. Erm for instance, the cheapest one, the one that is is that one. Mhm. That's erm price category one. Yeah. Er this one for instance,is er er here we go. Yeah that's the most expensive. Mhm. And so fifty percent off on this one is going to work out more expensive than thirty three percent off Mhm. Yeah. on that one. Mhm. Mm. It's difficult to work out why some of these should be so much more expensive than others isn't it ? What about that one? Spice? Mm. Mm. A lot of it A lot of it is just is just down to erm marketing Yeah. I think and erm Yeah. Mm. I think erm most most of the people who do blinds, do some sort of system like this Yeah. And erm I suppose it would make it would be a lot more logical if all the blinds were just the same price all the time . Yes and you chose. Y but yes but we're by doing some form of sale Yeah. people see the the word sale Yeah I know They feel more inclined to buy them. And er actually it's just it's just unfortunate if the one if you the one that you like doesn't happen Yeah. to be in the sale at that particular time. Mm. You know, in three months or six months time It might be. Yes. Mm. Some of them are definitely denser than others aren't they. Mm. you know. difference I don't suppose actually got the direct sun on it. Mm. Yeah m my erm I live on Road, Yeah. so my er this in my house this is a patio window. Right. And er w we've got the seating along that wall Yeah. and that one and so erm what I do in the Summer as you said, when the sun's sort of at two o'clock Yeah. one o'clock, it's over there, and I angle my blinds in this direction and so Yes Yes yeah that's it and you can do this still can't you and you can still see out. From from the the seats we can still see out into the garden but it keeps We've got the television over in this corner And you can still see It ke Yeah we can still see the telly. Aha. Also it keeps the sun off it. Yeah. And keeps it off the carpet as well. Yes. That's right yeah. Mm. I quite like that one actually. Spice, mm . Mm. Just not too plain, it's got some some Yeah that's quite a popular one that is Mm. A lady at 's just erm ordered one of those this morning. I think I like that one actually . Yeah. What do you think. Well I you know I Doesn't make a I know. It doesn't make a lot of difference really. Once they're up they're up . Once they're up they erm up you you're not gonna notice really after a while Mm. what it what it is. Some of them erm the pattern But I Yes that one I think . shows through more than others. Yes. If you want to take them out of the book Mm. and just hold them up to light you quite welcome to do so . Mm yes well I can actually see you know That that's got a sort of a You've got a line across there which I think's quite attractive. Mm. How l how long are they supposed to last, things like this? Or is that a stupid question? depends on I don't know. your house and what you what you do in it Yeah. I've got erm a fourteen month old baby Mm. Mm. and er erm I've only got one vertical and that's on the patio and of course it's within his reach yeah. We've got the er chains on the bottom that interlink the louvres so grabbing hold of those Yeah. and giving them a good pull. So how long the blinds're going to last I don't know. Mm. Perhaps about another six months we did know somebody erm down on actually who had a a vertical blind and several of the chains had broken or disappeared on the bottom of that Yeah. the the blind worked alright. But that's probably not gonna happen along there there won't be anything else on the windowsill . That's it was it was as you say over a patio door, it was actually being used as an entrance door as well Yeah. so people were constantly sort of shoving this aside and walking through. little dogs as well tend to er get tangled up Yes. in the bottom Yes. of blinds . Or cats in her in her case it was cats, yes . It was cats in her case. Had to replace one erm er Close Mm. the other week Mm. and that was in a right state. the lady's had it about ten years but she's got a little dog as well. Mm. And erm there were hardly any chains left on it. Yeah. Well I think it is They ought to last a fair time they I mean it's not gonna be abused really is it at those windows ? No Shall I work you a price out Work it out for that one please . Yes please. Right. Got some lovely colours. Mm. I don't really think Be a bit heavy there wouldn't it I think. Mm. The thing to bear in mind with the colours is erm Well I wasn't gonna say that Well that I was thinking actually with that colour. You might do I do erm red one might fade a bit I don't know . Mm Generally w red erm red cars sure they fade. Mm. Yes yes. I've made made that mistake in the past. Mm. I I buy white now. Yeah. Or Yes. No I think white for here is best cos the sun is quite I mean you get quite a lot of sun don't you on on on this side of the house. Yeah with erm with the colours though that's what I was going to say, the thing to bear in mind is it's like choosing erm paint or wallpaper. Mm. You see a small sample there you think, oh yeah that that's quite good. But when it's When it's a big when it's a lot bigger it's the the the shade Mm. Mm. tends to be t to seem a lot darker. All the colouring, a lot more bold. You know, the larger the area. sit down. It's ages since I've been able to sit on the windowsill. Is it? Mm. Oh the radiator radiator is turned up. Mm. Mm. have another go. Right, the one you fancied was Spice was it? Yes it was. Right. Mhm. Having trouble with both these pens today, I left them in the car last night, I think they must have got a bit cold. I've got borrow this borrow this blue one if you like. It was working . Do you want to sit down? Yeah thanks. Right. well I can push this back against the space again. Right you you said you'd prefer a white head rail didn't you? Yes. Yes. Yeah. Erm there are two two other erm factors I've got to look at Mhm. to work the price out. Erm I mentioned earlier chains on the bottom of the louvres. Mhm. Which they're er a little chains which which Yeah. Mhm. interlink the louvres. The idea behind them is that erm the louvres Yeah they hang a bit more erm evenly. Erm just difference they would make to the price. These back ones, the so called concept ones are all machine washable. Mm. So it said. Oh well. Yeah I think th there are some there that aren't actually. Oh. That book's not quite correct. Erm these are these are definitely. Yeah. Erm We've just the they've just been altered actually Mm. since Christmas. I think yeah, the information that you see on here is incorrect I'm afraid,it's just Yeah, it's just those. Yeah. They should have some stickers on saying machine wash washable. Yeah. I don't know. But I'm fairly certain it's just those. Yeah. It'll be alright as long as as long as you keep them Yeah, I could see your mother going the idea behind this machine washable bit it's Yeah. for it's er places like erm pubs or Where you've got smokers or you've got an open fire canteens or something Yes Yeah. Yeah. More of a commercial thing. Mm. And erm we've just actually we've just erm I've not got a sample of it, we've just got another louvre called a which is erm a P V C it's more sort of similar to erm erm you know the the slats on a venetian blind Mm. similar to one of those. Mm. But actually in the vertical. Mm. Totally different. But they can just be wiped anyway. Yes. Mm. That was a job I always hated, wiping the venetian blind. spend all day and still not get it out. I thought the idea was to keep them dusted al if you can keep them dusted regularly then Mm. Feather duster's a good idea . A tremendous range of choice though haven't they? Mm. You can colour coordinate almost anything. The one in the in the you know the erm machine washable ones is an almost exact match to this. I think it would I think the colour would fade Yeah probably. You'd have the same problem with the blinds you're trying to avoid with er And I know white discolours as well but then I think . No I'm not keen. I assume you didn't want to think about the kitchen? No. . Yeah. that's one place you would need it to be washable. We've got a blind anyway Given the Yes. Mm. which you just pull down to wherever you need it in the Summer. Erm yes, one other thing. Erm it's affects the price. Yeah. and that's the erm width of the louvre. Mhm. The ones that you see in the book they're three and a half inches. Erm the other one is a five inch Mm. which is kind of width. Yeah. Mhm. Erm it's entirely yo don't to your own personal choice which one you go for. However, the three and a half inch works out more expensive. Because you've got more of them . Because you've got more of them. Yeah. Yeah. About fifteen percent er ro roughly fifteen percent extra . What width has your mum got then? There's plenty of width there. on a large window like this you'd you'd get away with the five inch one. Mm. look out of place. It's only on the sort of very small windows that it would look Mm. Yeah. too big. Yeah all right It's because it'll be that reduces then the number of pieces of machinery and the number of Mm. It also means that they'll draw back to a a narrower profile doesn't it. Is that rotten dog snoring again? She seems to spend all day asleep, I don't know what she does at night? Does she sleep at night as well? Yeah I think erm actually my there's probably nothing wrong with my pens, I'm trying to write on the back of this paper it's paper Yes it's not Yes. Mm . Right the price erm f for erm that Spice, that comes out at one hundred and seventeen pounds Mhm. eighty pence. Erm if that's sounds too much,th the way we could make it cheaper it erm not to have erm the interlinking chains. The the cost of those on a blind this size is sixteen pounds. Mm. Yeah. Erm if if you didn't have those erm what would happen instead is the erm, the louvres are a are still weighted at the bottom but it's a slightly smaller weight. It's actually and it's actually sewn in into the louvre as opposed to the er the larger weights. They just slot through and then the chains clip on. So that one would come out then at erm just over a hundred pounds. Mm. It's up to you, do you want the chains on the bottom or? Well I think so yes yeah. You know you know what's gonna happen i if they aren't. Well they would tend to swing around a bit more . Well what tends to happen is erm when when the blinds erm the only time it's a bit noticeable is when the blinds completely closed. Mm. Mm. Because what you n notice is there's about sort of erm getting on towards half an inch overlap between the louvres. And that's the noticeable part because Yeah. Mm. it erm it's you're doubling the material thickness and so you tend to you get dark You'll see lines dark strips. And so you might see of them. That's right some which m could possibly a bit wider than Yeah others. Yeah yeah it'll look like stripes that are on uneven. Yeah, the chains are more important the the higher the window is. Yeah. On a small window really not That's quite a e erm a high window really isn't it cos it's Yeah. the windowsill is low. You're sort of halfway betwe yeah between the an average size window and a patio. And a patio yeah. Yeah. Go with the chains I I would think it would actually hang better. Yeah. Mm. Yeah yeah. you that that price is okay then is it? I would think so yes. Mm mm. Some people are quite shocked when they find out it's more than Oh. than than they were quoted over the phone but Having having erm been into various things like this I think we're almost unshockable by now. Er what we are gonna do and obviously we're in the process of, you're the first at the moment, is to have two or three quotations from different people . Yeah sure. To do it so erm if if you can let us have a copy in writing of your Yeah I'll I'll erm I'll give you a full quote And then erm if erm if you get somebody else in Yeah. who's erm who's offering offering you an equivalent system Yeah. to the one that I've come up with erm I E the white headrail and Yeah. which operates in the same way Yeah. and with a very similar fabric, then I'll try and my best to to beat their quote. Understood. You know, we don't like to be beaten. Well no. Although I've no doubt you know better than we do what the opposition are Well are offering or not. I think we're all pretty much the same actually. Yes. Yeah yeah. Yeah well My blinds are in my house erm none of them are blinds Mm. because I bought them all before t I started Right. started this job and er I I've got erm No I haven't approached them, I've contacted Blinds haven't I. I don't know who you've I've got a list upstairs of various people I've got one person You've only got one Yes you've got somebody coming I got my I got my vertical from the one at Newark and the venetian blind centre. Yeah. And erm I don't think there's a lot to to choose from actually . Yes we were gonna go in and see them weren't we? I d I don't know. Yeah. You did the phoning I haven't got a clue . . Yeah they've got books very similar and I think they're pricing structure's pretty similar as well. Yeah. Mm. roughly the same, I expect we shall go with you. Well be more essentially the the material The only thing that I've just thought about actually is window wh in the me on the measurement side rather than anything else is that I haven't Because we've just had those windows replaced, I haven't finished decorating around the top. This wood- chip paper does It's fairly thick isn't it as a paper, will that make a lot of difference to your actually measurement that you make. I know it's about about that much isn't it. Yeah erm w what I've done, I've measured I've taken an exact measurement, Yeah. from the lintel to the And obviously it's go it's gotta be And the blind is then made approximately er twenty millimetres shorter So that it'll allow for So we're talking about three quarters of an inch. Yeah. So th Cause o the the frame at the bottom is gonna Yeah it's guaranteed to to clear the sill Yeah just ab I just thought I'd mention it just in case. Yeah. And also when I took the measurement, I took actually took it You took from the smallest and also Yeah. That lintel, there's quite a big slope on it as well, There is isn't there. And it slopes towards the window so I've actually taken the measurement nearest the erm windows itself to be on the safe side. In fact I bit silly because this was the only room I didn't bother to finish round the windows and round the doorway. And I didn't make any mess whatsoever, I mean you wouldn't know replaced the window. Yeah. So I wished I'd done it all in the first place, now I've got to do it. That was your mother. Had had Oh she wanted to know about the door. we heard anything about the door. I said no. They were only gonna ring us if there was anything wrong and I had this horrible feeling at that point that that was the vet ringing up to say things had gone wrong. It's number fifteen isn't it ? It's fifteen yeah. Yes you're actually e sitting outside the original house, as it was built cos we had a room put on for the the back here originally. Oh I see. That was the end of the house. It's all a bit confusing now cos we've I've just finished altering the whole of the middle of it but this It was a twenty four foot long main lounge. Yeah. Just straight through to the front of the house. With a fireplace in the middle, but they've now put dividing walls in, taken the old frame out from the back and this was originally built as an additional room on the back. yeah. But we've now moved the music things that we had out here, into the little room at the front. Right. Is is that er , Turned this into a lou that wall there er an original wall? The one on the left is, the one on the right isn't. I've only just finished building the one on the right. on that side. That was the cupboard under the stairs, it's now a cloakroom. Yeah. Yeah m my father in law lives on Place Yeah. and er I'm just trying to work out if it's the same style as this. This is a four-bedroomed one. They're very similar. They're very similar . Yes the ones round there are they're they're the same yeah . They're the same pattern The three and four bedroom . People who knew us before and haven't been here since get terribly confused when they walk in and rather wonder everything has gone to. Did that get too much heat when I was gone? No. They don't l they want more light. Yeah. Well they're not gonna get it are they. No. It's alright it wasn't the vet it was your grandmother. I would assume by now that erm you know that they've finished operating and it's alright. Cos they normally do them after they've done their morning surgery don't they, some time about half ten or eleven. Yeah. I think. lampshade . Well the other thing I was thinking of was if we if we felt we needed to put a new roller blind at the window Mm. I mean plain white ones whatever No . . Although that's never a problem is it with large I don't think it needs No I I don't think it really needs one but if we did . Sorry where were you thinking of doing a roller? Well I was just wo wondering about that window but I pr I think I prefer just a curtain and I don't think I could put both there because the roller. I was gonna say y could probably do a roller in the same fabric as Yeah Mm. It's just that I've I mean I want a curtain there as well because otherwise it all looks a bit heavy but I don't think I could put a blind down there because of the way I don't think you'd get We wouldn't No I wo Apart from anything else, the door won't open. No that's the other problem isn't it. Yeah. It's bad enough with a curtain rail on there. the only other alternative would to actually put it itself. Oh we've got the curtain is on the door itself. Oh the curtain is on the door. Yes otherwise the door won't open properly will it. But the er the the cle the clearance when the door is open to the the piece of wall there is only that much. Oh I see. That's a I I had to do a little bit of er adaption work on the on the curtain rail put that on. Right. There's your quote then. Get me glasses get me glasses. Alright so that was the colour wasn't it Yes. the Spice White? Erm . So I've quoted you there for the chains. Five inch width. Five inch yeah. The three and a half inch is as I said it's approximately Yeah. fifteen percent extra. Mhm. But the five inch would be okay on there. Yeah. This is just this bunch and control . I you decide to order it, which side split or whatever and where you want the controls Aha I see. Yeah. Well we we we'd want the controls on the left and we want them to be split . We don't need to worry about that . Mhm. But that do that doesn't matter yet. Right and a white headrail as well. Yeah. Mhm. A hundred and seventeen eighty. That is that is a complete price including VAT and that includes includes Includes fitting. fitting on them as well. Mhm. Who comes and does the fitting? You? Me. Right. Same person. O odd occasion we'll come across people you know who yes he seems to be the right person and then somebody else turns up to do In Walsall, August fourteenth, nineteen hundred and six. I have two brothers, one older and one younger. Shortly afterwards we moved to , and we lived there for many years. The family had always been interested in the leather trade, indeed as far back as eighteen hundred and fourteen er, our ancestors were tanners in the south country, and we make an article known as Hooper's saddle food, which is much sought after by the saddlers, and other people using similar sort of leathers. Worked for the firm of with whom my grandfather was connected and also my uncle. were rawhide merchants and grandpa joined the firm to start them in the leather trade. Subsequently he started the Walsall branch to where my father went and also the Northampton branch, to where my uncle went. And also, in later years, my cousin was o o operating, was working with in the rawhide trade. Father was very ill, he had T B, and during the war he became worse and shortly afterwards fifty seven he died. I was then twenty years old and was asked to take charge of the Walsall business. My cousin er what's name now Kenneth was the Lieutenant Colonel, and was the youngest commanding officer in the army at the time of Alamein. He was killed in this battle erm, is that of interest? I don't know. Erm with regard to the leather trade, I worked for until I was fifty until I was fifty-four years old. After which, I decided to get into the leather producing industry rather than the purely merchanting business and I joined as a director of the main board. In this capacity, I started where we built a new building in , a very nice building of handmade bricks and, expensively constructive I also was the principal negotiator when Harvey hired the firm of in Walsall. Unfortunately due to a difference of opinion in the after casing of new methods, this was not a successful venture. Because was very fine producers, of top-class saddlery and other leathers in the old style. The new methods of mass production, were unsuccessful and was closed down a few years later. Why were they unsuccessful? What, what was the problem there? They brought in management and er, I've got, I've got erm,I, I'll show you a, a thing about it. Do you want to know that? Can you co up again if you can co I'm going back to The reason being that the approach to the business was one of quality and a large amount of hand-finishing, and, the leathers were aimed mainly at the, saddlery and leather goods trade and also only at the very top end of the shoe trade. Under the new management, the idea was to get into the production of leather for the shoe trade with modern machinery and mass-production methods. These were not understood by the workers and the management on the floor, and indeed should never have been put into operation. With the old style of production, with a little extra help in the marketing and on the financial side, it would have been a big success. Is that all right? Yes. I'm not used to this you know. What am I going to say now? Erm, what was your job exactly? What, what did you do? At ? I was a director, but I had no responsibility in the production of leather or indeed in any of the management, er,erm methods. I did my best to oppose er, these new er, schemes and found myself in the majority of one quite often. And of course and what, dear oh dear oh you go How many people did they employ there? Was it a large concern? was the biggest, leather producing unit in Walsall. At one time, I think I'm right in saying that they had two hundred people. Certainly at the time of our taking over, the the number of operatives would have been not far short of a hundred. It was And whereabouts was their premises? Whereabouts was the premises? Oh the premises er, are, were, erm in er, between er , er and . And indeed in those days, the whole of that area belonged to even the land facing onto was nearly wholly owned by . So what happened to them? I mean, are they still in existence or Ha have they been taken over completely? shut. I was then put in er, charge, if that's the correct word, of disposing of the premises and er, we sold a part to Harry who was an old friend of mine er for his garage purposes and er, later on, purchased a large building in the middle of of erm, er, this area, which was still being used as a leather currying works and so on. Er And when was this? About what year, would you say? About nineteen before to sixty-nine. And then when, where did you move on to, from, from that point? You yourself, what did you do? Well erm, the firm of er, was taken over by Geoffrey and myself were the two main board directors mostly in favour of the takeover. But shortly afterwards,er, I was in confrontation with the chairman the basis of my contract with was such that it was not to his liking and I was not prepared to give way in the matter and was dismissed within six months of the acquisition of by . I was then sixty-four years old and I started a business again as John Where was that? Was that here or is this in ? Oh no. Er, I didn't have any idea er that I was going to start, obviously, er, but er, I first started at home in the backroom and had letters all over the floor. Within a few months I took a small office space oh dear I can't remember. What that was? Can I go back? It was in, it was in where Yes. I took the offices yes. Tell me exactly what you were doing. Merchanting er, is the buying and selling of materials not the production of materials, and erm, I was probably the first person from this area, in the leather trade, to go to China and we started to do quite a large business with China, so that immediately I was on my own, the first big operation I took was to go to China and make very substantial purchases of pigskin leather. Then shortly after that I moved to where because no one else who wanted to buy the old buildings, I purchased them from the firm of er in our own right, no ou , in my own right and I started my office there where I had warehouse space. they were all leather manufacturers? We sold quite substantially locally but also we had a reasonable export business. We erm, sold bigger parcels to other parts of the countries in, in this town because we were not dealing specially in Walsall leathers at that time. Erm we were agents for a firm called in Australia, who made very good leather indeed, and we did sell quite a large amount of his tanneds to the local er firms for the saddlery trade. Where else did you acquire leather from? You mentioned pigskin from China and pigskin Australia. Er, that's a difficult question because we bought er anywhere we could er, and where we thought there was leather that we could make a small profit on. Indeed erm I can say this now er that at that time, unknown to the top management of I was buying large quantities of leather from my old firm it into the town, right past the front door of my old offices which were now the hea the local headquarters of our and selling them, literally, within sight of the building that used to be the place where I operated from on their behalf. When did you come to then Mr ? And what was the firm doing when you came here were they This is a very old established firm. Er, it started in eighteen fifty six, had been currying leather for the saddlery trade all those years and it was then a subsidiary to and was making saddlery leather for them, but in addition, quite a large production of fancy leather for the local light leather goods trade. After er, purchasing we continued to produce the same materials erm, mainly er, directed towards the saddlery trade. Later, at the time of the collapse of the empire, we also purchased the small er manufacturing plant in which again was a plant that I'd started. We produced there only fancy leathers However, two years ago, we decided to close this plant in mainly because I'm getting fairly old nowadays and my son had many activities to take charge of. So we concentrated our leather producing efforts in in where we make almost exclusively leather for the saddlery trade. Where do you get your hides from? This is, at the moment, a difficult question. The immediate answer is the hides as such, almost entirely come from the British Royal Hides which are tanned in this country and then er, find their way back to Walsall er for the saddlery trade. Unfortunately, there are only two or three tanners left in the country who produce the type of leather that's suitable for this trade. And, in addition, we're suppliers to other countries as well particularly the European countries. So that the source of supplies for the saddlery trade is becoming more difficult year by year. One can look around the world but even though there are somewhat similar leathers produced in South America and Africa, they're not really quite suitable for the better end of the Walsall trade. We can all still bring leather in from our friends in Australia but for reasons that I don't wholly understand, this is very much dearer than the local er supplies available and for the time being it's not of interest to the saddlery-makers in Walsall. Erm, do you export any of your finished items here? Yes, you're asking us er, a question which now is erm pass, er politically er not, er very, er advantageous to put on the air for public erm interest, however, we do export er quite considerably. Er we export to France. We export a little to the United States. Er we export some to India We export and anticipate to export a fair quantity to another country, which for the purpose of our own affairs shall be nameless. Erm, does climate affect the finished item? Yes. Er, the question you are now asking, er is really concerned with the final finish of the material. Some buyers prefer the grease to be left lying thickly on the grain and the flesh of the leather and t so that it will gradually be absorbed and also they can then brush it up when they have got the goods, when they are making it up in their workshops. But for the local manufacturers, we pedal it and dress it up here before it is delivered, so that it's then in its final beauty, ready for being cut up into the various items of saddlery. Are there any other currying firms such as this in the area? Not in the area. Er, there's one other firm in Walsall called who are very fine producers of saddlery leather, indeed, the leaders. They are much bigger, much er, better mechanized and very good quality producers. Er we are good friends, er although competitors and erm my view is that that whoever, who are the Walsall producers make the best leather we can be found in this country. Would you say erm at one time there were many more firms? Oh, years ago, when I was a boy, there were twelve tanneries in Walsall. There must have been more than twenty curriers Nowadays there are no tanneries and there are only three curriers So the answer to your question is yes, many, many more. A lot occasions it is a contracting trade. It's contracting not only as regards the Walsall trade, but for the simple reason that hides and skins at ma v very largely found in the countries of Asia, Africa and South America. Now all these countries have much cheaper labour force, most of them have warmer climates and with the advantages of low-price labour and also less expensive from the point of view of having to dry out leather and do these various processes that come in the production, the erm the leather tanning trade is being increased in those countries, with the knowledge and indeed the design of the western countries, because tanning is not the most salubrious of, er works. There are certain smells and there's er effluent problems and very often they're quite glad to get rid of the tanneries if they're anywhere near the middle of the towns. Do you promote your products That's an interesting question. We don't promote them. I disagree with advertising. I think it's an unnecessary expense and we take the view that if the product is good and if the price is fair, buyers will come to us. If we spend a lot of money in advertising, I think it's not only unnecessary, but wasteful. At least it Had they had any problems getting labour? Always, that we now could of, do with one or two suitable workers er there were problems throughout trade. Our friends who are saddlers and bridle makers can't get workers and nobody, there aren't any workers in the currying and tanning trade available. It's quite possible that there are one or two old gentlemen, but when one wants to find a new operative, one really is looking for somebody to come in the trade who will be with the firm, all being well, for a number of years. Why can't you get these sort of people now? What are the reasons for this these shortages? I can't answer that question. I don't know. What are the main uses of leather today would you say? Of course, that's too simple. There's a very large amount of clothing which is new in the last twenty years, because the technology of producing leather is such that the skins can be split thinner and still retain their strength. The leather processing is such that they can produce leather with very soft handle, nearly as soft as er, as er fabric er,ja er, erm jacket or costume er and also it's er become a fashion article. So after the shoe trade, the clothing trade is of an immense importance. Gloving has declined somewhat. You don't see all the ladies pulling their gloves on every time they go to church or appear in public, er and certainly men, very, very rarely wear, use gloves possibly, as we're driving cars, we're not exposed to the cold. If we were walking backwards and forwards er to our offices, we'd pro er probably wear gloves in the cold weather. Then there were so many other uses of leather. What percentage of the total would be the saddling and harness side of it then? Minimal. Minimal. Er, it wouldn't matter to the leather trade as such or to any of the countries, er if there was no saddling and harness trade, and that goes for countries like erm, Britain and France and Germany and United States and so on. Obviously, of course, it matters in the sense that people who want to ride horses and race horses and hunt with horses and this sort of thing, so that as a pleasure thing, er it's good er to have the leather for those purposes. But one has to bear in mind that it is always possible that you could have other materials for riding and so on. Not as good, but nes nevertheless er such things are possible. Good evening. Hello. Hi. What can I do for you? Right, Doctor I'm here for a er prescription for Endoril L A Pink? Pink capsule? Well I'll tell you I, I, I was here last month and you know Doctor ? Mhm. She said she would put on the computer or something like Mhm. that for three months. Yeah. Now I couldn't rem quite remember. She told me to come back to get my blood pressure checked again. Right. And I couldn't remember whether she said at the end of the three months or End of the month. just now? I'm not quite sure E every month June. Basically that's why I'm here. Mhm. For the prescription and to get it checked. Slip your coat off and we'll get the pressure checked for you. Ah. .Slip that round your arm. That's it. Right. That's okay. There we are. There. Just let your arm rest on there. doing very well. You're not getting any funny fits from that at all, June? Er no. Nothing? Ah. That's excellent. Excellent. No problem. It did mention in the, the sort of packet that maybe feel cold with cold hands and what have you. But I think I could live with that. I haven't actually noticed that there's Aye. Y you'll find no that's really only a problem in the winter time. Aye. You will be getting very cold weather Aha. during the winter here. You know a lot of frosty weather. a coincidence cos at the time I started taking them actually trying to spare my branch work in a bank. Mhm. So I was trying to spare and it's really the most coldest branch I've ever been in. Mhm. Er the heating had broken down and I don't know whether it was because of the heating or because of the tablets or whatever but they're, they're alright now. Yes. Well I think er th th the time that people notice this most is definitely in the winter. Aha. You know if you get maybe a week of fairly hard frost Aha. you feel the tips of your fingers Yeah. Cos it'll actually take me till about half past the day to get any feeling in it, but as I say I don't know if it was the tablets. It wasn't, it definitely wasn't the tablets because i if, if it had done that to you, it would have been all day. Aha. There'd have been no improvement. I see. Aye. Because it works all the time right Aha. through the twenty four hours. Right. So you wouldn't have had any, so it couldn't have been the tablets doing that to you . If it helps my blood pressure I could live with the cold Yes. Oh yes. fingers . Oh aye. Oh it's doing really nicely. And w we'll see you in four weeks again. That's fine. And get it checked again June. Okay. Okay. Thanks a lot. There we go. Right? Thank you. Bye bye. Okay. Right. Bye now. Right So that's okay, okay so that's, that's off now Great That's forty five minutes, now these books, the white ones are for the tapes one to ten Mm, mm and the blue is from tape eleven to twenty Right It's a, it's a log, which is quite important if you can try and remember to fill it in Mm, mm and it gives you an example, okay and it tells you to write what the situation is, so it'll be at home with the children watching television Right strange woman talking to me or whatever you know Yeah and then what the names are that you're likely to refer to Yeah on the tape okay, so if you're still doing that in the next forty five minutes it will be just as above or whatever Right you don't have to repeat it all the time Right but after about every three tapes it does actually tell you on the log, to change the batteries Mm, mm okay there change the batteries Right You've got fourteen batteries Mm, mm erm which should be, you know, enough, but again if there's a problem then my phone number is on your collection card which is there and I'll come out and re-stock you as it were Right-o so just leave it going, you, but you understand why the survey's being done? Yeah To get this sort of and if you can talk as much as you can with your lovely yeah, oh accent, it doesn't matter how much swearing there is it doesn't matter Well I do, I throw erm, I throw some Shall I take that? some old, yeah, old pleasures and from all the time Well that'll make them sit up and think that's for sure Sometimes I go and heed the ball Do what? Heed the ball What does that mean? Head the ball Head the ball Yeah Oh right, when you're playing football Well no I just, it's, it's a term of endearment in Scotland Is it? Yeah I wonder where that comes from? That's the sort of thing I want, yeah, yeah, well I put on the form that we've got a true Scot because that'll be Right good news, erm, that's interesting, I mean we have expressions, I mean I come from Yorkshire Mm, mm but the, they're just derivatives of words like twout Yeah which means the other or to go out Yeah yeah can mean either twout yeah and twere which is just we were Oh aye, aye you know, but they're not as good as those ones no those are superb, right okay I think I took my clipboard back with me didn't I? Whereabout in Yorkshire actually is it you're from? I actually come from the Dales from Middleham which is near Leyburn which is near Catterick I know Leyburn, I know Leyburn very well indeed Do you? Yeah I was born in Catterick Yeah Were you? Mm, yeah, my son was Were you in the army? We were in Catterick for two years Oh well , well you know Middleham castle, Middleham bridge Yeah, that's right, yeah Oh, I've been down here about twenty years though so it's faded a bit Yeah, yeah but I miss it I must admit Oh we were in Catterick for two and a half, three years Were you? my wife, that's where I met my wife Was it? and er, she used to be in the four nights in the Queen Alexandra hospital Yeah nursing, yeah and I was there for nigh on two and a half years and er, then we moved from there to Germany Oh right, right, well I have a lady actually round the corner who's er in the WRAF and er she's doing it for me, she's just on three week's leave at the moment Oh right She's presumably British Army of the right I don't know Mm I didn't ask her Yeah but, are there a lot of military people around here? Not as far as I know, no No, that's funny I should get two on the same survey Mm Mm, anyway thanks for your help No problem thanks a lot and I'll see you a week on Friday Definitely okay hope you okay feel better cheerio all the best bye bye say bye bye Bye Bye cheerio Thank you You get twenty five quid for one of them Yeah, that's right boy Do you want me to say anything? No don't you just you leave it alone Where? Where? come away and leave it What are they? it's just recording exactly, everything that you say now It is Oh rubbish It is No it ain't come and have a look No it is not Look, there you go ban pot Yeah wowee it isn't recording it It is recording when Oh yeah Listen, listen to me, when it's finished, instead of putting it in the box we'll put it on that other one and listen to it for a wee while Yeah just to hear yourself speaking from it Okay I bet, I bet you, erm I won't be in that You are in it, it's picking I'm not you up at the moment Oh rubbish It is rubbish Laura Laura if I get all our then you will be ha ha Yeah What? Laura where's daddy? Okay then so Don't bother that yeah just come down now and have a look Don't touch that it's sensitive Bye Why did, they did the two houses as you come up Manor Road I thought you find this wallet love It's okay, they're still here I'm alright, I know, I know Mum Can I read a magazine now please? Oh that's not running now, is it surely? It's gonna be on all the time Get it off No It is mum, it's on there Just leave the bloody thing on all day, it don't make any difference No it will if I start shouting Ha Oh shut up Can I read the magazine now? Yes if you want, I need to find this I've looked for that mum I found it under this mum, mum, can you buy me some wrestling cards? Mum, I mean dad Ask dad to record it It is Oh my god, I'm gonna get put on tape, oh, oh Chris You leave her and the tape alone I didn't touched it Find it Matt Where? found it, right under your mother's nose Dad What? daddy What's that? What? What Laura? can erm you ask Matt to get me some tomato soup Matt's not gone anywhere just now If I spend a good while looking at it and I can't find anything different can we, maybe we start doing some ringing? I will see what we're doing tonight You out tonight? No oh cos if I can get that plumbed in tonight before, go yes you can phone M F I now and see if that oven's ready Alright Dad can you record that? now, that's dad if that, when did they say they'd be back? Who? That guy Oh you told me they were coming Dad on the second of March Oh I thought they might be a bit earlier Well you said what date did they say? I said the second of March you see he's got to have to do the window ledge Why? Well, when they came at first they says, see the way they've got there Mm them wee tile things Mm he says we could either put it forward because the windows are obviously a lot wider Mm or we might have to bring this back a bit Mm but he says erm you'll lose some of this here, I couldn't give a shit basically ain't give a Well these are er, and that's, there's nothing underneath that, that be Dad waste of money, with that stuff come away from that light Dad could we record it? It's recording No take it out, put it on that? No just leave it alone where it is Okay See as you've found your wallet you can treat us to a chicken ya I'll be cooking while you're Alright Matt, Matt will you go the chippie? Which one? Oh yeah I know No what I'll do is Jesus, look Alright, alright pull the bloody page then we know exactly, we won't have to Do you want dad? Oh hi, hi there, my name is Mrs I ordered an oven about two weeks ago, I just wanted to know if it's in er where, where we looking at that? One, one, one, stroke, two, four, one, dash, O, seven, nine, three, one in brackets Have they said how much the delivery charge is? That's right oh right okay sorry what? Is it in? I don't know, sorry what did you say? Ask them if they deliver and how much will they charge me? Hi right, okay, erm do you deliver? No it's okay not to worry, don't worry about it, it's alright, we'll come and pick it up then so if we come any time after sort of tomorrow brilliant, that's great, thanks every so much for your help, bye. It's, it's in, but any time after ten o'clock tomorrow how much money did you leave, leave to it? Erm I left you some money to get your birthday present How much did you left? How can I keep track on the, the money? I left you twenty out the erm joint account and that's all really and I'll get it Leave it Leave that leave it. ello, correct, Malcolm has, er yeah gone about two minutes mate in fact wait, is that guy actually gone? Yeah You've, you've missed him by about two bloody minutes basically, oh, okay then mate, no problem, cheers. Me keep, are you gonna keep the log on this thing? Ah get lost Yeah you keep the log cos the log book's got to be done Right so there on the first one it's gotta be Matt and Jan, lazy shit Have you turned that off? second lazy shit no leave it on, the that's what it's for, for Christ sake, they're giving you twenty five quid just telling what you saying, might be private, be happy there Yeah right that's enough of that, get it off of there I think we should put it in there No because we are putting Yep will you leave it alone, it isn't a toy connect it to a hot water supply then using hot water for washing do you dad? What? screw that right through, up the top Dad What? come here Hold on Laura That lady left her gloves oh dear, she'll get them when she comes back Laura Da, dad, dad What? the thing's still running What? The Walkman thing's still running I know it's still running, it'll be running for a long, a long time And you want to spend fifty quid more Than what? Good condition, low mileage M O T, stereo, five, fifty You turn the telly off? Pardon? You turn the telly off? Yeah What for? It's getting boring Ah, leave that Vauxhall Cavalier nineteen seventy seven, one year's M O T, must be seen forty five or nearest offer How much? Forty five, it's in Hallum Hallum's too far or Sirocco sixteen, yes, oh Sirocco Sirocco Yeah, still, I can't read that new reconditioned engine in it silver, silver, new reconditioning engine, new M O T on purchase, good tyres, good all round condition for the year five hundred and fifty five pound all in there's that one or I found Toyota Caro Carolla, thirteen gear X, X reg, high motor taxed M O T how much is that? Nine, four, five, well the last one was bad, the last one was bad or unless you want a B reg and that's and the last one is, if I can find it I'm not selling it is L three hundred road recent engine overhaul, good body and material, six nine five When is our dinner? or there's the , or there's the In a little while a Capri in the old one, in the other one I like the sixteen hundred yeah the other one Which chippie is dad getting the grub from? Do you want me to read it to you? Is it Harroway is it mum? hang on Ah? Is dad getting the food from the chippie in Harroway? Don't know Pardon? Don't know Dad What? Where you getting the chippie from? Chip shop Which one? The one down by Harroway Oh Why Laura? Cos if you was gonna do the one at King Arthur's I would of had some rice. Ford Capri sixteen hundred, twin head light converted, M O T December Dad can you see? beige with brown vinyl roof, very good condition three nine five or there's this one,Ford Capri mark three sixteen hundred beige outer work round trim, good condition for year M O T, radio cassette superb bargain, four nine five or nearest offer that's all I can find. Dad do you need this? Yes I do, why do you need it for? they've got three layers of erm wallpaper on Mm I tell you what I'll speak to you when I come back from the chippie yeah well he can come with me if he's allowed he's not, he's not going, what I told you about what I say, what I'm saying, eh? Sorry Don't think cos that tape's on you won't get a smack in the ear son I just remember what I tell you, as simple as that How do I get the drawer out? What paper is that? Oh it's Right I'm going down the chippie can I have some money for the chippie I'm not having anything, I'm just having soup and rice We're getting an Audi that's a diesel, it's gonna go well fast Don't build your hopes up on anything will you please and stop being stupid I think we're gonna phone them up tonight, can I have some money please to go down the chippie? And you need some money for the I've not got any, I've not got any change, ask your mum Well doesn't the whole unit come out? Yeah, but there's a Get out of there If I have to tell you once more son you're gonna get a good bloody smacking, come out of there Right you want what? Look, what have I that and egg fried rice They don't do egg fried rice what do you want dad? Mum What? come here Oh Laura you keep shouting come here, what do you want? Erm can I have some toast? What? Can I have some I can't hear you Can I have some toast please? Some? Toast What now? Yeah You might just and wait until you get your soup Mm Scampi and chips yeah, do you want scampi Matt or what? Two portions of scampi If you do it again I'm gonna give you a smack boy Go and sit and watch the television No I want to do What do you want Christopher? Nothing You'll go to bed if you carry on like that son I want nothing, they didn't have any baby prawns and then they haven't got any scampi but he'll have a spring roll no I don't want, will that be an egg sandwich? Even if they've got scampi shall I get fish if they haven't got any scampi get an extra fishcake and an extra spring roll You can go without I don't care really don't start shall I get it or not? I don't know what to do Yes get it eh, me and your mother Just because you think of, your heart open the door, you around me money, money So you, I won't eat it all, oh Put the T V on somebody please now What was the I thought no turn it down wowee horrible I don't care It doesn't matter if they get a little bit of T V I don't care, Matt turn it down I have Alright, alright What? No leave it I can't hear it I've got to go now bye Be quiet Chris Different Strokes is on Oh wowee I've got to go now bye Don't forget my soup said to me I've of told you to take half an hour so actually Come and do that Chris just a quick one I don't, I really don't blame you it's just, I think she's just well crazy, don't worry about that, hang on that one's working. Do you know what if we come up tonight cos erm a woman came to the door, a woman came to the door this afternoon and she's given us a Walkman with a microphone on it and we've to tape all the conversations with it Oh my god It's for a new er dictionary they're bringing out about erm English spoken language Don't you dare Ah Yeah, honestly, oh you don't have to dear just, when we're having, just talk normally, it's running, it's running at the moment It is Bob Well that's okay it's, it doesn't matter if you swear, it's running at the moment, shag bag See I've just said something er, they'd be quite happy with that I should think, yeah it's running now It is Bob No honestly, well, well see you later right, cheers, and don't worry about she's just an arse, ain't you, you're just an arse, I'll speak to you later right, I don't know about half past seven, eight o'clock, right here's Jan. Dad up there Listen please don't worry about, I really don't blame you, it's not your fault, honestly I wouldn't of gone if I'd known not bewitched If I wasn't suppose to go Sheila, I wouldn't of gone, I wouldn't of deliberately talked you in it She's, she's what, Sheila why you upset? Whatever so long as it doesn't matter, don't worry about it, why you upset? Is it the way I spoke to, I said yesterday it is, I said I've given you a lot of time in the holidays and what have you come in and now you're making a big song and dance about an hour and she said oh I'm sorry I didn't mean to speak to you like that, but she did, she was just plain rude and really quite nasty, eh she should of yeah, and she should of told me that I wasn't, becomes taking a lunch break and then she said well you could of taken half an hour, I said you didn't tell me well I said to her Matt rung up this morning and said to you, surveyor's coming up to, at four o'clock, he wants both of us to be there so we know which way the windows will be and all the rest of it, just bear in mind, now I said to her I know it's short notice but can I please go at four o'clock, she said yeah it is short notice but yeah no problem come in at eight o'clock tomorrow morning as a joke and then she totally changed her attitude when she came back from her thing mm yeah oh yeah that was nice of her well I said to her, I said to her oh I said to her look she would take she would, she was seeing me do it and I respect what she says and I do what I'm told no she didn't say that Matt the door Matt go and get the door specifically told you from yesterday but you just, I said I'm sorry but you didn't, you did not say that you weren't to go to lunch Why do you, why do you keep messing about with that light? but please don't worry Anita I'm not yeah Shoes I know I'm just gonna go in Don't just anything, doesn't matter yeah, but Been on your bike? go on put your bike away right take your shoes off maybe she's got a bug or something, that's what I had a few weeks ago remember, mm, mm, oh and then to cap it all did she tell you she spoke to me about that erm the bloke that was organizing it, he was obviously a rip off she was a bit I felt bad because the bloke was with him and er she sort of glaring at him, and I said but Matt had I said shit, he must of come to pick me up so I obviously I apologise for Matt I just felt awful Matt what did you get me? but I do, if a man, a bloke's going out of his way ah? I just didn't know what to do Er fishcakes They're chip it's all your fault We're having chips but it's not though, it's not, it's her fault for being so bloody stupid and not telling us A, what we're supposed to be doing and B, the fact that I was not having any lunch to go half an hour, what do you mean? She never said any oh and, and also, I know has got nothing to do with it but she's working an extra two and a half hours a week and getting half an hour off, you know I mean you, in all the nitty gritty of it, well I could of turned round and said look, well I'm actually entitled to half an hour, I should just being bloody pathetic and when I went out the back to go home Gaynor said whatever is going on here today? I said oh don't worry about it, it's just a bit of confusion about you know, it's just pathetic and she's so rude and nasty no mm that's right yeah, yeah, yeah it's the same yesterday when I was writing about that we'll just send them back the problem and send fully stamped yeah, I really was quite, quite upset about it, well I don't blame you for it I wouldn't of minded if she'd said this morning when I'd asked her Jan yeah, hang on a minute, yeah that's fine, just take half an hour or you can't have a lunch break, but she didn't, she just automatically assumes that everybody knows what's going on in her head be that everybody else should know as well, yeah anyway I've got to go Matt's shouting, he's obviously having problems plumbing the dishwasher, god his little cotton socks, so we'll see you later, alright then, see you later on ta ta. If I catch any of yous touching this again you'll be in deep trouble right Christy? I never touched it Christy Yeah Just wait here, I'm going up for a bath first, you can come up when I give you a call right? Yeah Do you want a fag Jan? They're up here I'm gonna have a bath first I, still, finished Get that off Oh shut up say anything in the conversation well it's I could three or four times I had to speak to him last night, and you never said a word, you just pretended or said you didn't hear Er has it crossed your mind that it I'd might not heard? But you said he was at the bottom of the stairs I was at the top and you were in his office It wasn't even recording on that tape was on there, why? Are you ready to go? Don't leave your sleeves turned right up like that Matt there's no need for it come on don't play with it, just take it Will you write me absence letter please? What? Write me an absence letter What's your teacher's name? Miss Miss ? Yeah she's my form teacher, I've got about twenty other teachers Is it Matt? Dad dad dad What? Where are you? Dad I'm downstairs Christopher Oh, can I have erm a piece of toast? Not got enough time for us Just a slice dad? Can I have a slice of toast? Yes go and put him in a slice of toast Matt Thank you Dad oh you're gonna have to wait, there's not enough time to get bread out the freezer and Dad that, they can't have toast cos there's bread in the freezer and it's, there's not enough time to get it out and defrost it. Go and get a loaf out the freezer You alright? Yeah I'm just going You found your bag? Mm, mm Don't forget that letter I think I'll go up car and price how it'll cost er,recap er replace that cheap What? that blue stripy stuff What for? Because this looks crap It's better this than wasting a load of money that carpets we're gonna bin anyway A few letters there, where's my pen? Where's the money that was there? Don't know Jan did you lift the money that was on the side here? Let the answer machine get the phone Laura Are you ready to go Chris? Come on then go and get your coat on. I'm ready. Go and get your coat on well done go and start the car Matt Dad What? A, D what does it stand for? What? A, D what does it stand for? Anno Domini, why where does it say that? It says in the it says two thousand and fourteen A D metropolis Right are you ready? Right come on Chris let's go, in fact run upstairs and put that on your bed quickly, come on, double away better put that woman's gloves somewhere safe did you take that change that was lying there, well Matt I'll need some for his dinner, oh, no alright Laura Are you coming back? Of course I'm coming back, go and get your slippers on and make yourself a couple of bits of toast I haven't got any slippers Well borrow Matt's, go up and borrow Matt's, put your dressing Christopher go up and borrow Matt's, get your dressing gown on and make yourself some toast, right? Look what he's done to his shoes I know he'd better stop scraping them whatever he's doing. I never scrape them You got that letter? Come on Come on in the back seat well go on then blow away I can't get this off Put your seatbelt on can you get my for me please? no he doesn't he no Matt, things can change in the Fire Ser , the way they do things changes every, every year Cos we, when I get in I get chosen by other fire station Yeah, well no that's del , delivering tools that for the fire station wait a minute that is for your could you open that up? I know that's for work experience, but I'll still do it. Right, I know We have to fill in all the fire engines that we work on You may have to stay for your, who's that? The postman I know it's the postman Post Oh, you might have to stay with your nana for a week Yeah that's alright You'd better clear that with your nan the next time we see her. Don't see any problem I'm not I look at the scrap heap, scrap for that then, might as well make it look as good as possible, even if I get two five for it, I'm sticking two, two grand in there, well we'll make it, we'll stick the lot in the joint account and keep it there mm, go on that's, that's no priority for a couple of months is it? Got the money we might just as well wait a minute, we'll leave that in there we'll let it go out, see how it goes for a couple of months, Glen will know where we can use any money for that anyway for a couple of months We're not selling that What, alright, wait a minute, just let me finish, get it sorted out, why was buying a suite when we've got to be stripping down wallpaper and getting dust everywhere and sand and dirt and Christ knows what, just to get it all shitted up Well I'm saying If I got it lying, where, if I've got it in the bank and it's there ready it's, there's nay problem is there? Ambulance there Ah? There's an ambulance there, looks like there's been a crash, a bad one as well What the hell's happened there? Two cars by the looks of it Let the rescue must of hit some, some ice see them but you've got to stick in to your studying Matt I know I need it I know you need it, the way you read that letter was atrocious Matt if the letter, the word just doesn't jump out and tell you what it is, look at the, the words each side of it Christ cos that woman stopped She's got four red flashers on Dad I'm not heard any word from Commercial Union yet Dad what? Well that's a point still haven't got any red letters Dad Perhaps stopped and you're insured I'm insured, it's a cover note cover maybe Ah I phoned them up Dad want them to send me a cover note Dad What? It isn't it isn't the case of just being a fireman say get a rescue tender and whirl it up and erm there about, you've got to get, you've got to be a fire, if you be a fireman you've got to get in everything erm and erm oh of course you don't, jump in any wagon that's available, but there's certain vehicles for certain jobs, and as Matt said that would just be Yeah and if you sit there and then people like to rescue The control tends to send through a, a fax They read it on the printer Yeah and show you which vehicle to take and then they take, you take whatever vehicle's On the er they say, and if then they've made a mistake you have done what you are told, I mean if you take a big ladder and it's only a wee fire, a small car bump and then there is a big fire later on, somewhere else and they haven't got their, the right appliances because you're at that place with the wrong stuff, then that would cause problems wouldn't it? Yeah See you later It's very rare that happens though I love you too Er mum can I have some money? Sorry Well done Matt, well done, better doing it now then wait until the last bloody minute when we're outside the school Right see you later Have you got it? Yeah See you when you started crying last night there was no need for that Matt, nobody can what do you want me to do please you when you kick, that was three things you kicked over in the space of minutes Alright Well what do you want me to do? Praise you up when you go around kicking things, walking about with your eyes shut you've got to join the Fire Service and you walk, you canna walk about with your eyes shut, you can't, people that have been injured in the head they're going to be screaming about it aren't they your eyes are wonderful things Matt, they give you all round vision, you can see from, from the side of your eye if you look it's like everything else if you don't use it properly, you don't get the benefit from it Dad look what I can do What? with my eye, I can look forward and like that Mm, mm I can look forward and sideways Well you look at, if you put your hand up and move, move your fingers up at the side, you can see that, you can see that moving can't you? Yeah That just shows you how good your eye, the views are, even right next to the side of your head Why? you can see your hand moving Yeah but if you keep it still because there's nothing happened there your eye disregards that and it takes in things that are moving. I can still see my hand If you put your hand up at the side there you can still see it even though you're looking straight, even though I'm looking straight ahead Matt I can still see that, try it. So can I Aha I can so can I Put your hand up at the side and I've done it right up at the side of you? I mean I can still see my hand moving take you to school I know I'm taking you to school, just bored going out to it all the time drinking a coffee? Yep I've decided I'm not going for that Audi Matt What the diesel one? Yeah it's a van, I don't want another van No, but that wasn't the one I'm showing you, this one was a sixteen hundred er D L, er four hundred and fifty pounds Diesel? No sixteen hundred Yeah you can get a sixteen hundred diesel Matt No, but the other one in the auto paper, not the southern, there is a sixteen hundred Audi Audi what? Saloon like this and it's a sixteen hundred and you said that's the size you want Mm, mm it says phone any time. Is it trader? Private, so we could probably get away with four hundred Dad look at this, right Tell you what I'll write it down on a bit of paper what page it's on Sorry just tell me Page fifty six Right aut er the auto trader not the southern Thames Valley? Yeah Thames Valley no it's not page fifty six in here on the first page where it says bargain cars Mm, mm and remember that little X R three, black one? Mm, mm You don't turn the page over, just look over to the next column I'll find it Matt, I'll find it it's a red Audi, eight, er hundred Dad What? the blue one they're looking for four fifty it's a sixteen hundred with black cloth interior terrible it's the next cheapest thing from that Capri, the Capri's the cheapest but it's a two litre All I want is something that I can drive about, just to get me from A to B it's very well, like that Same as that? like that, but it's the next one Dad What? Why what's that going for? It's too big for, too small for no it's not Oh yeah dad, erm I don't care if it gets me from got A to B Matt dad I haven't gonna be a police, but you have to be careful any sort of car can be a police car Yeah you gonna be a policeman Chris? Yeah You need to study hard I know what erm sixty four and sixty four This is very depressing, who put this on? What? Who put this, tape on? Put what? Dad This tape I already know what thirty two and thirty two is What? Erm eighty four No, thirty two add thirty two, what's three and three? Six So what's two and two? Four So what's thirty two and thirty two? Erm a hundred and twenty four No sixty four Oh because three and three is six isn't it? Yeah So that's the two thirties taken care off, so that'll be sixty wouldn't it? Yeah Then you've got two twos, which are? What's two twos? Four Right, so the answer is? Forty one Sixty four Oh you know what You got your letter Matt? Yes Dad I already know what six thousand and six thousand is Six thousand, six thousand? Yeah Well what's six and six? I know what six thousand and six thousand make What? Twelve, twelve thousand Correct, well done go on out you get Bye, see you Give us a kiss now, okay see you later See you later, pick your brother up Matt yet Dad there's a rubber down there A what? A rubber Pick it up then there you go Thank you, good boy, er pick your folder up for me please Am I coming in the back? I'll erm my seatbelt in the back? Yes if you want, yeah I'm coming the other side You like Phil Collins don't you? Yeah I'll buy you an album for your birthday Pardon? I'll buy you an album, a Phil Collins album for your birthday, would you like that? Yeah And get you an hi fi for your own room Yeah Plain speaking English Dictionary. So every e , every conversation I have I've got to tape it. You don't mind do you? No. No. Cos I try to get all the colloquial things and whatever. All the small adages that people use. Honestly! That's the tru , that's the truth! Innit Laura? Mhm. Right, so er yeah, I was looking at her a couple of cheapies in there. You ever been to Westbury Castle No. Have you? Ever been to Westbury Auctions No, straight up! No. I heard they're quite good. So what d'you reckon I should reasonably ask for that thing then? Erm I mean I've gotta put a I've gotta put a minimal sale price on it. Er three grand? It's done a hundred and eight thousand mile! Yeah but it's big, it's two litre though innit? Mm. Don't got to a trader though. No. I'm going to an auction. Yeah. I'll put it in in Westbury Auction I was thinking about to putting two eight. So what's the idea of all this then? Two eight thing. Er, just this this woman came round to the door last night and said well er, you know the in bi English Dictionary? Well it's a a dictionary on the spoken word. Like some people use other other words to mean different things. Oh yes! And they're trying they're trying to compile one of these things. It's a load of fucking crap to be quite honest as far as I'm concerned ! And she said swear and what have you! Ah! I don't think I'll ever have a use for it. You're fucking lying ! No honestly! They're giving me twenty five quid for this, honest! They're giving us twenty five quid to record these. What? Recording away. I Bob and Sheila's last night as well, they were Bob says turn it off! Turn it off! Oh! Yeah! So they're fed up? Thing is they're not much about mate is there? There's not much about at all! Go abroad. That'll be nice! You thinking about it? Well I was, but Sharon don't wanna go at all. Where would you go mate? Where's a, if you can get a I forget what it's called now, they advertise in erm er is it Telegraph, Times it's a newspaper which is just for jobs abroad. Aha. It's two it's twelve quid for six. Six. Yeah. Six issues, yeah. Worldwide? Yeah. And it just Worldwide. comes full of job, all sorts of jobs everywhere, you know? I thought about sending for that It's crap! and I've sent away for it. Yeah. It's crap! It's just like a fly sheet that comes out every month. Mm. But My mate Andy's off you see he's Wha gone to Saudi. Who? My mate Andy in Wales. Has he? Tyre fitting of all things. In Saudi? Yeah. Jesus Christ! get in over there. Oh, no, just split up and mess about. Mm. He's got them on a That get done for assault there. that paper you're talking about it's mainly for erm students Mm. that have got six months where they want to get in before they get stuck into their studying again. Overseas jobs vacancies. Yeah, that's right, yes! Yeah. Cos I sent away for it. I got it for six months,te Yeah? twelve pound for six months. Er Are these erm today's papers? Yesterdays. What . Yeah. They come out on a Thursday don't they, you ! Yeah, cos of the cos of the week holiday yo never know! No, not talking . I don't buy crap! Just erm I've gotta fit this poxy was , this dishwasher as well! Have you gotta apply for licence? No. I've got a I've got a licence everything mate! I'm well covered! Yeah ! Why don't you get a bike? If it's only Because I've got Because a briefcase that would choke an elephant! And when Yeah. it's pissing with rain I don't wanna go into somebody's house dripping like a, never mind looking at the bikes into the cars! I need to find erm a breakage a bike breakers. There's one in Basingstoke. Ah! Bike Busters. I paid ninety quid, is that where it is? Bike Bike , Bike Busters, I know where it is, it's erm I paid ninety quid for this Suzuki right? Mhm. And erm magneto broke on it and these, I mean back shockers are a bit weak on this and that, but Sharon had it and said oh it's not big enough! I want a bigger bike but she's not gonna ride it until she's had the baby. Mm. And erm I mean, it'll go, just wants a bit of Coaxing? Yeah. It wants, you know? Cos of the, the bloke up in Wooton Rivers the bike breakers there Mm. he's got two of them up there, engines and the big bikes so I've gotta ring him up and see how much he wants some bits for. For the magneto? Shouldn't o cost you that much for Christ's sake! Well a new one's eighty quid! Well you don't want a new one though do you? Well no. Well I need a magneto erm the kick start sprongs naffed on it, so I thought well that doesn't matter, springs okay I'll Yeah. put it on wheel lock Yeah. for kick start. Just a wee spot weld will Yeah. keep that one alright. And sort it out. You alright Laura ? Yeah. Offered me thirty quid for it, he didn't . Cheeky shitter But when he comes down he said oh look, he said the back springs are naffed, I mean, yeah that back suspension's Mm. a bit saggy. And then he said, spline on the kick start. So you won't put a new spline in, he goes but the ca , the crank case is Yeah. all I've seen. That's right, that! He says and er, you got this and that and the other! Both tyres he says dunno if you'll get through an M O T with them. Yeah. So I don't think it's worth like that. Not the bloody thing! Ain't got much time to mess about with it you see. Ain't got much time as it is! Mm. Who's this guy in Wales that you know about the cars? I'm not interested in a poxy old bike! Who's this? What bloke? That guy that you got the Datsun off. Oh Chris! Mm. Yeah, he hasn't got nothing. Ooh hang on he has bought yo , he's bought a B M W erm bought a B M W. What, three sixty? It's a three series. It might be a two litre though. Er How much? I dunno I, I dunno even know if he's done it yet. Er er, what was wrong with it? Erm Phone him up! Erm don't know his work's number. I've got his home number written at home. Phone Sharon and tell her to get the phone number. Yeah. Er Get moving bud! Get a move on! I could do with a nice wee bud ah? It turns up . Can't think of anything else is there? You feeling alright Laura? Look,there! Where? There. Your stomach? Let's see! Your tummy? Let's see. Whereabouts? Hello! Yeah, go on. Shug Well What? ello! Mummy there? Anybody phone Laura? Watcha No. How are you? Erm, listen can you give us Chris's number in the book please? Hello, how are you? What are you doing? Comes under C. Comes under C. C for cars. Yeah. Yeah. Did you tell them says. Yeah. Erm Geoff I I met him in Phillips, I went to, hang on! ello! Hello! How are you? Alright. Long time, no see! I know! How How are you today? How have you been? Alright thanks. That's good! I'm recording you at the minute. Are you? Yeah. Oh my God! I should know how to . No you're alright! You'll be alright. Aha. Why don't you come down and see this place. Well, no not at the minute. No? No. Is this the . Are you alright? Yeah, yeah. What's the matter? We've got fifteen grand for the council so Have you? Yeah. Fifteen thousand, yeah. The council can't give you that amount. To buy it. No, no this is to buy cos we've moved out of council, council property Oh I see! into this place. No, it'll cost us at the, the buying price was fifty one. A four bedroom, so we cannot go wrong basically! Yeah, yeah. But erm you need to come down, once we get the double glazing I'll give you a shout and come down for a come down for a coffee and what have you. Yeah, that sounds great! Yeah, definitely! How are you? I hear you're er in the family way again. Yeah, I know. You dirty people! Well, you calling us dirty people? Well And we ! I am ! Oh I don't mind admitting it! Right, I'll put you back onto your feller shal Okay bye! See you later love! Bye! Okay, I'll see you later. Oh,wha wha hang on! What time are you going down the hospital? Right, I got a cheque in my pocket made out to pay cash so she said you can go in and cash it on the counter. Two weeks. Because otherwise you wouldn't be able to it'd take three days to clear so that's the best way to do it. She put pay cash on the, on the whatever. Alright then? I'll see you later! Okay bye! . Not on this one though. Yeah missed a bloody does that now and again dunnit? How much do you wanna spend? As little as possible! As little as possible! She might be down the shops or something. He'd be . No, nobody in. Shit! Here I'll tell you what got your Capri going well there! Has she? Hundred and forty brake horse. Jesus Christ! Erm Actually I was wanting that Capri last night actually. Actually I didn't know the Capri what? Fourteen, fifteen. A H, H reg two litre S. Like, two litre . It's too big! Mm. Too Erm Too juicy! Yeah. Okay, we need another What about that, what about a Skoda then? No good? if I go too fast! you know, if they put council put a notice on. Oh right. So it's been towed away. That bastard over getting there first I think! What were you gonna say about this guy that was in here? Oh full of it! He's doolally isn't he! He was telling me that er when he was serving Northern Ireland, okay? Yeah. He was hanging out of a Lynx sitting on the side of this with this gun right? Yeah. Right. he said and they was doing six hundred mile an hour oh yeah? In a Lynx? Yeah. What a shit! And they was hanging out the bottom, hanging out with their guns hanging over the edges. Six hundred mile an hour! Crap! A Lynx will only do a hundred and eighty mile an hour! Yeah, but that ain't Well it must of been a turbo turbo thrust blue thunder Yeah so accelerated elastic band Yeah. So he says special Lynx! oh he says, the stories he used to come up with He's full of crap! I'm not I mean He when I come down here and I'm he still go on about his to do these. Ah! He's full of crap! Iddy lost his job. Who? Sorry? Does those helicopters Ah right, yes! Why did he lose that? They erm well apparently he said a few of them got in trouble he said, and heads had to roll and one of them was his! Erm he didn't think Causing trouble in what respect. or something. Ooh Christ! So er You cannot afford to make mistakes like that on aircraft! Well I think , I think it was a few of them involved , but apparently he went so you never know. Jesus Christ! Yeah but you cannot afford to I mean, Jesus Christ they're putting people's lives in danger there aren't you? Yeah. I bet this is runner up for erm gonna take some accessories okay? What for? Well got a car in there. I mean, for instance, if you had something like er Spares or repairs. fourteen or I had a sixteen overhead cam Cortina engine sitting up the blokes just swapped it for a two litre cos he wanted some more go. That's my old engine out of my green Capri. Oh! Dad! Sixteen hundred. Thanks darling. Well then go and get yourself ready and you can start stripping off things like that for me. D'you feel better? Okay, yeah. Ah? Yeah. Get yourself dre Cor blimey Ford Capri two litre S,complete care including full road cage. Mm! I just want something that I can tax, and insure and ju jump in and take away. Yeah. D'you want another coffee? No, I'm alright thanks. Well I'll tell you who might have something Who? Erm Michael out at erm er Burbridge way. He runs a scrap yard there and erm whenever he gets decent cars in like, he flogs them on. He's usually he's usually got a car or two for sale. Michael Williams his name is but I can't remember bu I dunno the name of the scrap yard. At Burbridge Erm well it's not Burbridge it's erm oh! He had Is it Devizes? Ah? It's not Devizes is it? No, it's not that side. It's go to Burbridge Yeah. and then take My area. Ah? That's my area. Yeah. Well if you take that road down that goes to erm Great Great Bevven No! No! Marlborough No, erm Eastern Royal Pusey Pusey if you take the road that goes to Pusey you Right. take, that's where it is. A scrap yard Pusey there I know where you are! on the left hand side, Michael . And he's usually got a car or two for sale there. In Pusey itself? Well yeah, I think it might be in Pusey Yeah that's Or it's just I know where that is. on near, just outside Pusey Where the monument is? Ah? Where the monument is, you turn right and you go up that small road and it's on the right hand side? I know Yeah. where that is. Yeah. Near the bungalow on the right hand Yeah. side. That's right. That's the one. Well, as you drive in the bungalow's on the left. Yeah, that's the one. And then there's a the scrappies right behind it. Yeah, that's the one. Yeah. Now he usually got a car for sale. He had erm what did he have there the last time? Usually got a Cortina or something outside for sale, you know? Mm. When he gets them in. Old Escorts, something like that. Well I don't see, I say, old but, you know quite tidy. Mark three escort he had there, one going cheap. So that, there's a an Audi in there and Audi diesel Yeah. four hundred and ninety five. Yeah. The thing is it's getting the spares for the bastards that's the thing. Well I put Chris's number on top there if you want Yeah, yeah Yeah? I'll give him a call mate. You met the , you met them before? Chris, no. I've, is that the one that bought the engine? No, that was Steve. Ah that's right, yes. Erm it's surprising what you get in here if you look in the right places. Scan through it, yes. I mean those items are pretty good as well. Ah? In the items. Er you been looking I was wan have you? Matt's been looking through it for us, I've not had a chance to look at it yet. Lancia, ha! Sixteen hundred . You like Lancias didn't you? I like the old twin cams, yeah. yes, I'm not keen on Lancia. I think they're a heap of shit to be quite honest! Cor that's cheap innit? So what d'you think of the old place? What? Yeah,ma , good potential innit? A lot a lot and Vauxhall Royale. Fucking massive engine! I know. Look! It's about three litre I, should think. Rare two point eight manual option, service history full service history, over two thousand pound bills, gleaming metallic gold , luxury velvet interior, power steering, tilt slide centre, tinted electric windows remote mirrors, four headrests, alloys etc., tax, M O T, beautiful car, maintained regardless of cost eight hundred and ninety five quid. Ah. Yeah, but it's One here. going from a two litre to a three litre! And I don't need that! I know! No, no, no. Oh! Do you know anybody that's got a car trailer? Erm ah! Yeah. Any chance of getting a loan of it? Yeah, I dunno, I've got his number, but he's moved but his, the number's the same. He was gonna lend us before and er, the only reason I didn't borrow it it's a bit dodgy okay? It's go Why? It's got no brakes on it. Depending on how much you're towing. Well it's a Datsun Sunny. Yeah, erm what's the matter with it then? What the Datsun Sunny? It's been lying up for about a year and a half Oh right! It's got no seats in it. So I need a trailer. Can ri , see if I can arrange to have it collected on Sunday. Could you borrow the trailer on Sunday. Yeah. What's his na , erm Well it's no use me phoning him up is it? No, I know I was just thinking if I could ring him up now. I'm not if he's home. Got some others in here. Have they? B M W Alpina three two three injection, the cheapest Yep! Alpina you'll ever see. What is it six hundred? Ninete nineteen Six hundred? seventy eight manual in red, factory sun roof, B B S alloy wheels, long M O T, requires some tidying six hundred and ninety five quid. Yeah. It's not bad at all is it? What size is it? Two point three injection. Two point . So twin pipes don't you? That'll be too big, yes! Dad? Too much fuel man! Mm. I mean I'm carrying a a fuel tank behind me with that thing. Erm yeah, I must know someone actually who can who's got something for sale. Something about four hundred, four, five hundred. I wanna know how much I can get for that thing though. Yeah. I mean once she's tidied up she's nice looking when she's had a good polish and what have you. How much d'you reckon. It's gonna be about three I suppose innit? I should think three, yes. It depends, some of them bigger Vauxhalls see they don't hold their money. Mm. It's like them Royales you put in Royales at dirty cheap innit? Mm. And Senators. Pick up Senators up for nothing. Carlton's a nice model though. That Jags nice innit, in here? Did you see it with the kit on? I'm not looking for a Jag ! I'm not interested in a Jag Christopher! It's nineteen seventy, a good body work,, spoilers,alloys, triple kerbs Two hundred and six Yeah okay. two hundred and sixty five brake horse. Attached B P petrol station! All of Wales! Triumph he , Triumph sta er what do you call them? Erm, Herald . Four gallons to the second! R S two thousand , one mint condition. I dunno, I think either one of them. D'you know anybody that's got a Some of them might be That's got a dolly? Erm Yeah. Not a dolly. Er there's a small Escort mark three Escort, right? Up at Pusey and it's had a rear end smash. Yeah? Yep! Quite bad. The axel's smashed to shit! And it looks as if it's, might have distorted the chassis a bit. Yeah. But B P Rowes have got a jig haven't they? That they Yeah. and Mm. I wonder how much they charge me for that I dunno. to jig that straight? Dad? Shall I get a ? Yeah, that's a good idea Could always phone doll. B P Rowes Yeah. D'you know anybody else that's got a jig? No. Actually I do. There's a bloke erm Sharon's dad bought erm my brother-in-law's Citroen off him Aha. After it had been smashed up, written off. Mhm. They gave him ooh, couple of hundred quid for it, four hundred quid or something. E reg Mhm. or F reg Mhm. and a bloke down in Cardiff put it on the jig and he erm he er does all the taxi's you know Mhm. and he charged him five hundred to jig it all straight, put the new panels and, and spray it all. Shit! Yeah. Well cos down in Cardiff I mean you ain't got the money down there. Mm. So you gotta do it cheap. Yeah. Erm yeah, I don't know if, it might be worth you have a look at this Italia mate. Well find it. Yeah, I'll see him and I'm, I'll probably see him tomorrow and I'll have I'll see what's about. Mm. Then I can pick up a cheap engine. How about a Ferrari Dino replica. Yeah, that'll do fine. Get two. Is there two in there? No I'm, but I'm only buying them in pairs! Wilton carp , even got Wilton carpets in it, ah? Mm! Well there you go! Something nice to wipe my muddy feet on when I come in! Yeah. Erm yeah, I'll have to see what's about. Put the old er, feelers out you know? Like , as in yesterday you know what I mean? Yeah. Cos I've gotta dig that thing out this weekend. I want to try and get her in for er into the auctions for Wednesday. Yeah, erm cor that's nice! Carlton. What? Ah? Carlton. Yeah. Much? Eight, nine grand! What i , what reg ? Erm, it's a three litre G S I which is the real top of the range innit? Yeah. Nineteen eighty seven, lotus green, badges etc. Eighty seven? That's the same as mine. Well full lotus body kit, ninety eighty seven, a lotus green, badges etc., seventeen inch wheel, alpine C D, tape stereo, alarm, all usual G S I extras Okay then, you can knock a thousand quid off a that. So it's about seven an seven grand they're looking for that? You seen that Lotus Carlton, the new one? No. Or a Nodac Beautiful back kit innit? It's a three point six right? Three hundred and seventy brake horse power Mm. nought to sixty in under six seconds, hundred Yeah. and seventy mile and hour. And it's a heavy, heavy old car as well. A hundred and fifty mile an hour right? Ah? How many revs in top gear? I reckon about four and a half. Three and a half. A hundred and fifty mile an hour! Now road testing, the bloke said look you can take your hands off the wheel at a hundred and fifty! Well I ca , I can do a hundred and twenty odd in that thing in four and a half. Yeah. But it ain't bad is it? Five speed . Yeah. Yeah, I'll have to keep my eyes open Matt. Erm but I'll probably think of something later on. D'you want this wood? Well you got my phone number haven't you? Yeah. No. I'll give you my card. Alright, well I'll see what I can rustle up then. Yeah. Sooner you know what I mean? Yesterday's yesterday's too late. Yeah, that Geoff might have something I'll see if I can erm I got my cards. it's er that Geoff might have something I can erm go up see. D'you wanted to look at that wood in the shed. Yeah. Yeah, You help yourself mate. Help yourself. I'm going to the loo. give me a shout before you disappear. . Why don't you coming Matt? No, you help yourself. I reckon you've been having the report daddy, then we can .. God love her! Do all those men have the ? You pull the chain down really low and pee on the edge of them. if you can't afford to get behind here. Right? No, I think this is it. It's too big. Well you can cut it! Yeah, a little, but you I better get one actually cos it's gonna be in the main kitchen in the school see. Oh. So it'll have to be all super-duper! . Yeah. But if you can out about the trailer Yeah. then I'll drop the guy a couple of quid. Yeah, I'll see what's about. Erm No, it's alright. Don't worry in the bin. Erm This one. Yeah, I'll probably think of someone who's got a burner. Well you do that. You yes? do that! Find abo , out about the Ital and er Yeah. and everything else. I'm not keen Yeah. keen on Itals right off but For the right money, and if it's good, the body's good and all that Yeah. sixty quid's good enough innit? Getting us A to B, that's all I'm worried about. Yeah. Mm? Sort that out! Oh! I'll get a new get a nice small engine in it no problem man! No. Well I'll do anything I'll tell you that! My er my mates just bought a Marina. Aha. Two thousand. and this, he said all, but he says it's totally immaculate! Mm. Paint sprayed a little bit here and there, he said Mm. but there's not a spot of rust on it! . He said but he's blown them, smoked them and bought some new pistons for it and erm, done it, he's brilliant! I gotta stick a few. I, I will I'll stick that in for a few grand. There's where you gonna put it? In the auction? Yeah. Yeah. Westbury Auctions. Stick it in there. Mm. So if I can get something for about five five ton. Mm. Ooh, excuse me! Well I'll see Chris with the B M. Yeah. Erm And if it's a three series. Yeah, cos yours is a smaller one innit? Smaller body work. Well it's sixteen. Ah. Be ideal. Sixteen hundred Yeah. maybe. That'd He mi be okay. he might have . I dunno! Don't get them anywhere at the moment! Bit rare though, if you get them. Mm. Can't afford to replace them if you get one Mm. you see! Erm Well it's a case, I've got to get rid of that thing cos I cannot just I just cannot afford fifteen quid a day petrol! sap up doing nothing.. Is there? Good nick? It ain't too bad actually. Silver it is, it's a two litre G, Gs G S I. Going from two litre two litre, I don't Yeah. want a two litre! Well that's that's people, that's why people get the smaller engine there's that much kicking about I'm afraid. People hang on to them. Yeah. But then I got I mean if you said right we'll get a yeah, a or something right? Mm. Erm I could get that sixteen hundred Cortina engine that's for the fitting as well. Mm. Get Steve to do it. They got them . Mm. Your saving money it don't matter cos your absolutely . Ha! done on the weekends or Yeah. rather, or if you'd rather after that. Get , yeah as well. Mm. But erm, well if I get erm ? Well that's what doing now, cutting up. Yeah. Well you better see to it then. ? Yeah! Get us in trouble. Well I got things to do. Like what? Christ you're doing well! You get in there. Get stuck in! Do you feel better now though? You slept? Yeah. Ah dear! You seen my tape measure love? No. Any idea where it is at all? No. It was here a couple of minutes ago. This hard bread's falling to pieces! Well let's have it. A little bit. We'll get the chicken . Watch ! Watch your fingers! Don't matter how sharp it is it'll still cut you Laura! How come all the ? Do we need dishes? Mhm. Is that enough cheese? Full. A bit more in the middle please? Let me get us some crusty bread. . Mm mm. Ooh! How do you get that ? Oh aye I did. That's lovely! Why? So that the the good bit's on the bottom the buttered bread's on the bottom. The cheese won't go all over the place then. Oh! This filling, it looks very nice doesn't it? Yeah. Look at that one . Aha. Can I have a bit of cheese on the side on the plate? I really like cheese now! It's all eat apart . And hey, which bit's mine? yes? Course you can. I need that poxy tape measure! Where the hell did that go? It might be in the lounge. Ah, in the lounge. Ah. Your tea's in here love. Pardon? Your tea is in here! Yeah, I'll just come and get it. It's alright, here it's here, I've brought it in. Thanks. I bet you I've put that tape measure away didn't I? Oh. way round didn't I? I know. When the green light comes on again that means it's done doesn't it? Yep. Right. True actually. I thought the, the erm you know you say these things can get very hot Yeah. What, in the grill? Aha. Yeah. Right. Well I thought those fires get red hot . So they do. Yeah. Well today in I learnt something else right. I thought that red hot was the hottest the Temperature you could get? Yes. But it isn't you can also get white hot! Correct! Which is A lot hotter. Twice as hot as red, as red hot. Looks nice dunnit? Aha. Can't wait to get my teeth into it! Do you want your teeth in it as well! Have you got your plate? Yeah, it's there. Mine has got cheese on. Ah! Blast! Mine here. Goes on a bit thick. Yep. That's really very hot that is,. nacky nacky noo! Definitely not gonna fit. You could put in the middle. Put it sort of in the middle. Centre. And what good is that gonna do love? What? I don't see what you mean? What the dinner's not gonna fit Well how am I gonna get the door shut? in there? Yeah. Oh well push in that bit Not only this, it's this , it's too big as well. Dad? Yeah fine. Fine. Put it on there. Rum tee tum ! a minute and a half. Da da da da doo doo doo doo . Can I eat the cheese? No, leave the cheese on your plate just now. Okay. Why don't stand there and eat it love? Okay. Aha. Aha. Well that's only , it's boiling. It's white hot don't you think? If it's white hot we wouldn't be able to stand close to it Laura. Burn your eyes out! Only the white heat . Watch, because the cheese will be very hot inside as well. Aha. I'll put that in that. It's almost done now. . Daddy. . Wait till that come on. Right. I've never had one of your . Have you not? No. Is the cheese nice? Aha. Flipping hell, aren't I allowed to have a bit? Can I go and sit at the table cos my tea's there. Yeah. If you want. Mm. What's this mat thing? What mat thing? This thing here? That's for very awkward questions! But it's just a receipt? Mm. Don't worry. It's just a . It's, and it's just the si , it says . For details . So I did. . Mm. Mm mm! What's VAT dad? Value added tax. Pardon? Value added tax. Oh! A rip off! That's what it is. Oh! Complete rip off Laura! Must be. A big receipt for only one thing. Shit! That old unit's stuck behind there. The whole thing? Ho! I'm Oh! afraid so! I'm damned well afraid so! This is ready Laura. You ready? Oh! Yeah. I'll bring my plate up. Right, thanking yo you. This looks lovely! Mm. Looks rather good! Right, I'll going outside,, alright? Okay. I won't Where's be long. Right. Was the one you went to Building Materials Centre,? Mm. Poor old ! It's a black interior as well. What, on the Audi? Yeah. Is it? One four and a half, I'd say will you accept three hundred and fifty? Well I don't wanna phone the ! Well you do , obviously don't want the car then! Yeah, well you yes, I'm thinking about you! And it's advertised for four hundred and eighty so I don't feel you're gonna knock it down that much for Do you not? Would you lay your life on it? It's only seventy quid! I'd lay a lot of money on it! Se You can phone up and say is it gone? Ask if it's gone? If not say Have some idea nay! No! Well go on then! Yeah, and then what shall I say if she says no? Just say will you accept three fifty? No ! I'm not saying will you accept three fifty! I'd do it if my teeth didn't hurt! I'd say will you accept four fifty. Oh God! And then you're knocking the price down by thirty quid! So? Then this is where the fun starts! She'll say no, oh oh! Yes. Then you say no, no and two fifty . What? Shall I bring the phone in and you phone up? British National I don't wanna phone, it's a car! No, well don't bother then! Forget it then! And how much do you want me to pay for it? Three fifty. No way ! You won't get it for that much! Wanna bet? Yep! Dad? What? There's a red light on this thing, flashing underneath the sign where it says record, battery. Does the have you put record in? Yeah,recor , record's in. This is record. But there's a, then underneath it goes record stroke underneath it, battery. That's okay. I think the batteries are going down. No, they're not! Don't panic! Okay. Shall I phone them up and say will you accept four fifty? They won't, you won't phone them up and say will accept four fifty! Phone them up and say will you accept three fifty! And I don't wanna hear any more about it! Well I won't say any more about Right! it then! Fine!that Mrs ! to the dump. I'm gonna watch T V. Excuse me! What sh will I say if she says no. You say right, fine, keep it! What do I say if she said yes? Say right, give me the, give me an address. It's a buyer's market Matt! It always has been, it always will! Mm. Oh well . If they're desperate enough to sell they'll flog it! Don't you worry about that! Aha. Matt! Yeah? You stick to that? Yeah? What she say? He said it's not his car, he's gotta they've still got, he's gonna get his brother to phone up tonight. And what did you say? I said we what's the lowest you can take for it? And he said I can't say. It doesn't want to, it's my brother's. He said I'll get him to ring you back tonight. So, did you give him the number? Yeah! See it wasn't difficult was it? It's embarrassing though! Will you accept three hundred and fifty for it? How is it? You get it for three hundred and fifty, it's a hundred and fifty odd pounds saved innit? Yeah, but what if he says no, shall I say four hundred? No. And if he says no to it. He won't say no! No! What? You won't say will you accept four hundred? If he says three fifty shall I sa , just put the phone down? No. What shall I say? Just say right, we'll have it! Give, where's your address? What if he says no to three fifty? If he says no to three fifty say well, just keep it! I'll speak to him if he phones up. No! It gets real hot there!just talking to that. So Why? Just don't like talking to them. Well you're not gonna get, be able to get marks if it comes to that son! What? Ho , you gotta negotiate about cars and prices? No , you don't got to negotiate, you've got to be able to speak to people on a regular basis. Oh I know that! But whe say you said three hundred and fifty pound Yes. for that car You've gotta be able to not live in fear to say state your opinion. And just state what you think is right! And I think three hundred and fifty pound is a reasonable price for that. Alright! Don't you? Not really, no! Right, give me a larger headed lever. One with a bigger head than that. Slightly bigger. Cor! I think a reasonable price would be about three hundred and ninety. Well I don't have three ninety so The new Auto Trader's come out now innit? Don't know. Matt.. Well if we we got last month a one. We might this month's edition. Matt well ho how much are they? Yeah I know but I bought this one erm thingy. What's the date? Dad? Well i it's Friday today, you bought that yesterday. No I bought it yesterday. Correct! Cos you wanted to buy it Wednesday and I said no the new one will be out tomorrow. Well do you do how to move this? Watch your ! Yeah? What's it like for nails in this? What, it doesn't cut off. It was a bloody nail there ! Oh. Oh Jesus Christ Almighty! What a lazy, idle, shitty twat! Matt ! Coming. Get me a bag son? What? Get me a rubbish bag son, will you? A what? A rubbish bag! There you are. Put it on there. Just hold on a minute!, just look at all that stuff on there! Lift the bag up. Keep it away from the pots and pans . Yeah, well Chris must have done it! What are you shaking your head for? Because Is that a bad attitude? Yes, it's a bad attitude! It's the wrong attitude. Tell Laura to get him to move it please? Laura ! Coming! Come in here love please? I expect this . Dunno. Well there's lots of rubbish. Is that it? Yep. If you don't stand properly Matt! I am! Laura, take all this. Laura, come here! Yeah? All these pots and pans put them in that corner over there for me Yeah. please? You can help her. Bring the hoover over here Laura. Does mum know we've got the oven? Look, we're all doing the same thing at different There! Yeah she does know about the . We had to phone her up to get the number. Plug it in Laura. Yeah, I know. Pardon Laura? We had to phone her up to get the code. Phone who up? Plugged in? Mum. Aha. Switch it on now. Code for what? The, I don't know! Dad? What? Shall I try and get up early tomorrow and start the car? Off . If you want. Yeah. Great! I'm gonna start writing this letter for then. That, what I say Matt you won't have no problem. I don't care! I'll do it for anyway. Have you done your jobs? Ah? Pardon? Have you done your jobs? I'm gonna do them when you go out. What I want to know is just what did it take to get him to do that? Patience. Just keep trying Laura. Perseverance. Something that seems to be sadly lacking in this house. Matt! I want this whole this place tidied by the time I get back please? Right. I'm gonna do it . I won't be long. Dad? What? You know you were going to shopping. Yes. Get down to there! What and But Just get down! we're going which is exactly what I was gonna say. I said we'll You coming down? I have No you're staying here. Getting your arse up there and ! Oh yes. If that man phones then we'll say say what you said What ? and I'll say he said leave it he left a message for to say, will you accept three fifty? If so can we have What's your address? your address, and we will see you sometime Saturday. If that is inconvenient with my dad when he comes back I'll I'll ring you back, right? Just say . Well yeah! I will ask him to ring me back Fine. Play it by ear Matt. Where's the poxy car keys now! I dunno. Is it where they should be! Dad, you don't care about not getting that one do you? Well Don't care! You just wanna get any car. There's plenty of Audis about Laura! Mm. I know that Matt! Could be the same car as ours. Nah ah ah ah ah errrr doo doo de doo aah Shut up! aah Shut up ! I hope you love my Ah ! Get off!that window ! You didn't! Nee nee nee nee nee! Nee nee nee nee nee nee! Nee nee nee! Nee nee nee Oh, oh ooh, ooohh ! Ah ah ah ah ahh ! !! Oh shut up you ! Nee nee nee nee nee nee nee Pig! Shut up! Go and get changed ! Nee nee nee nee Get knotted ! Nee na nee nee Just gonna put the light on. It's not in the ki it's holder . I know. dinner's all ready. It's only a black one. as soon as they work out the That jumper. What's wrong with that? The one lying on top of that cupboard is. Did you phone Christopher? I thought Chris was phoning you? He's gone out for a while. He's got a lot of work. Just don't feel like doing anything. Do you like swedes? Parsnips? Do you? She had parsnips last time. All in there. I know. Well you've got a strong constitution cos I'm not cooking it again. This is brilliant! It is! This guy is making millions! Nations, the joyful to the right ! It's all money, Pope and that! And and peace and life, a story of peace and life . I think I'll go and hang the washing out! No you shouldn't put, bleach your toilet. Why? The reason why it . Did you not know that? No. Oh !do you? You know all the psychiatrists will tell you that comedy is a kind of biological mechanism to save us from all the things we fear most, death being one of the, you know, the most is just a spit away you see. It's a bit loud isn't it? No it's not! What darling? Do you like cabbage? Yeah I do. Can I help? A lucky person! A bit too loud, probably too loud she wants you to turn it off. Start thinking about that. Oh the stuff . You what? He was ready to start arguing last night again. Oh!going on like he is. That's it! You didn't say nothing? No, because he wanted to take the car out. Erm there was no way he could sort of get out it. Oh something together now. And it's What the hell will that do? Eh? What, Eh? How long will it be? About half an hour or so. Be about half an hour or so. Is that alright? Yeah. Mm? Won't be here till six o'clock will they? Eh? I said you won't be here till six o'clock. Probably. No. I'm not being No. I'm just going up to fix these drawers, okay? Yeah. You nearly finished them? Matt come out of there man! You can take them with you. Be alright on the beach won't you? . Don't you want them? They don't exactly suit you do they? No. . Tissues Mm? Tissues. Oh that's a new commercial but I don't think very good. Have you seen it? Oh with all of the town's comers? Yeah. Oh it's quite good that. Did you want me? Don't ! Ready now! Right. What do you want? No. Take me Thursday. Ah! Oh Laura's! Yeah ? Sit there. What about mine? Dad's bought a new car. And how much is it? Five hundred. Alright? Yeah, that's fine. Come on ! Bib bib Laura! Oh how are you? Hiya! Thank you mummy! Alright? Yes. You alright? Did you go to church. Yes. I couldn't get out of bed! Oh! Want a coffee? No thanks. And er that as well It's alright I'm going to go Yeah. on Tuesday. That depends if we can get the telly. How are you today flower? I'm not well! What pains in your tummy? Just don't feel . I don't know. I'm just . You're terrible with the you know, don't you? Yes. , she's alright actually. Well I know. I do as well don't I,? She says, when we get up and then doesn't get up . What are all those ? Ah, what a shame! Cor right! She's not, she's not well so she's just come again. Pardon? Laura's not well cos she back with them. And she said take up the that A B C one. Okay. Should go up see them. Mm. Give dad a fright ! I wouldn't! I've just bathed her in cold water to get the temperature down cos she's . Says she finds it hard to . Oh! Just over there. Mummy! Careful! Mind the books! Couldn't get my car out last time. No. Right. She's not getting up ! Katie come down ! Mum! She's playing with with me. Playing with with me! She's she's up. So what, so what is Laura doing? Has Matt got some ? She's got some and told her to stay at home. She doesn't wanna go . Does she not? Really hard work! Go home and think about it . Doesn't help , she knows she's got a sore throat ,she's asked to stay home because she was complaining she wa funny in her tummy. What's that doing? It's to tape . Well I thought it would be good to have a lie in. Car, though that woke me up. Thought you had it fixed? It leaks? No it won't be I mean come across and got the car going I guarantee. Interfering Oh! ! What's up? Chasing you out are they? No, I'm just having a . Right. Fit, she'll have a fit! Is this your chewing gum packet? What colour is it? Blue. Still got one left. Oh I bet there's . Still here? No it started pouring! Please change it? This is good! Right. So, it's funny. Pardon? That's a movie. Well you ah, you ah, have you , have you seen it before? Yeah. Just gonna phone them up next door. Don't pull those off. So you gonna tell them tomorrow. You can tell . I wouldn't worry about that. Would you? No. About time! Mm mm, mm. Oh well. You think it, I said did we owe them? ? No. I said why do you work full time? She said nothing to worry about. Her work is . Tell you about him? Don't wanna wake my baby up. sort of, aye! I got her puffed out! Oh. . No she said erm No, you're alright chuck! No it's alright I gotta do I can show him. bananas. , put the kettle on I suppose. Ooh! Ooh! Some more butter? Mm? Under . Seem to put on in jail or in the . Mm. No it's alright I've I'm keeping an eye on that out there. I remember watching that as well. Mm? And get out? Get out! Miserable ! No, cos they're actually going in I think. Is that wall gonna be ? , yeah. Yeah I'll take down . Aye, it's . Oh! Yeah,agency. Eh? Be there before the . Yeah. And he He's only only third in line, I mean you can't Just because he's Just popped, have you ? Have you just stuck that with ? Go on. Eh, what is it? That's that's what they, they mix them up and sell them. Oh is that what you read in the book? You mean Yeah. on the ? We didn't of this one. Look, cos they're like Take that bloody top off! Oh no! These things are Well it we'll have to try and get them. She was er your mother down there? Yeah. But You're really pushing that aren't you? . Nice there though innit? Matt what are you doing? That table I want have you got that thick enough? Hey! .Ooh! Can't! Come on Katie! Katie! Yeah. Come on ! Yeah alright. See you! Well I'm going to Texas now. Oh ? Yeah. Yeah. And Katie? Are you ? You what Matt? That in undercoating. Undercoating. Yeah. We've got all that haven't we? And go some Got to get some red to match Katie. Right well we'll see you No. . Bye bye! the minister. Eh? The minister. The Spitting Image. The minister. Good old ! Well that Sa , say he got let off? Yeah. I think he could. Have we got . Yeah. Yeah,downstairs, Clara and erm and one just carried on going straight and I got seventeen things that I can eat again. I got one's a fudge . How do you clamp the wall then? Mm? Ooh ooh! Oh! . Right? Right. Ha! Have you seen the . Mm? It's loosened off. Ta ta then! Ta ta Debbie! Ee ee! Bye! See you tomorrow. See you! Bye! Ta ta See you! then! Bye! Bye! Bye! Bye! Bye! Bye bye Laura ! Bye! That's good . Mm? Well that's the salt. Yeah. We'll have to wash up these. Forgetting about the . ring you up? yeah, You was what? Those cars. Oh right. Yeah, I meant to tell you . I don't know if she's alright. Let me see. That's why being a job. Yeah, and . Ah, no a technical . Yeah. Yeah. Who's is this? I heard. Not having much luck is he? No. When? I said that . don't like that fed up with up that! Said that's shit! Right. Get hold of the right side . Well, gotta do that. Dad where's my photograph? I want my Oh down there. Oh! Is it? . Eh? Who? Ben. No she's dressed. Have a bath first. That look at that! He comes Dad? What? You ought to be sa , helping me today. Do you know what you want love? No. No, I'm sure I don't want any. Have your mum and dad remembered? . Oh! Sod! Do you wanna ? That one goes nice across there is that what you're doing? As you come up down the road on the left ha , on the left hand side but you gotta go down there ? they look really nice! Which house? the bay window. Well why didn't you say that? Come here! What,? Matt? What? Would you say there was anything wrong with ? Ha? I don't mind. Aye, they must be the same . I was only having a joke! I'm sorry I opened my mouth! Oh that's fine.. Well we're getting there. Pardon? I'm gonna go and watch the telly! Ooh ooh ooh! Your daughter just said I've got a , I think it's because I'm hungry! Jesus Christ! And we were talking about And I need, feel really hungry now. Oh! She's . I think she'll be better off if she's got an upset stomach . But with that . She's got what she wanted . She's just been in here and told me that my Yorkshire pudding ! Quite cross! , she was thinking, what she's going out today? Yeah. Or whether she's fit.. No,it takes me thinks she's hungry because she's not had er Well she's really hasn't got . Well she's go , hardly eat dinner. No. I dunno, I think she's probably complaining about! She said that she was probably had stomach ache because she was hungry. So La Laura now thinks got a sore stomach because she's hungry. But she's not hungry! Oh! No point in her her dinner. Yeah,. ? All about that C N D! Bob said that cos I don't need to know. Bob wanted chicken tikka massala and then he said give me the list and wrote down on it two chicken tikka massalas so I look on that and I can't see anything two chicken kormas, one and two chicken tikka massalas. What have you got this for she goes? She said to John where's the forks? Now I thought I left the list in the restaurant because the blokes . She says I wrote down two Keema naans or whatever,. So she said you didn't. He said don't call me a liar! I did! He was so arrogant! Weren't he Matt? Yep! I'd get him as well. A bi , a bit of bastard! And shut up, he said! I know I'm wrong! Okay, shut up! No, he got down alright. No I , I got so much here I thought it would be fair to with you. Yeah. I mean they're pretty good with them actually. But I'm gonna have to go home. that's Great Ormond's Why are we having to standing about with no light on? Well the o , well more or less from the time we got in she's not gonna go back to that place Here a ! sick of this ! Will I put you across my knee and give you a wee smack on the arse! Think I won't do it! Choo! Look at them . Mm? Don't they look alright? Mm mm. Yeah. It's not re , not ready yet. I'm . Oh oh those have been twisted haven't they? Yeah. Well they would do that. Think of the things with on. You are. Well why bother when you tell him off? They do it anyway! Right, well what do you think of it at the front? I haven't really thought about . Oh well! You never need it . Erm tell me again, what he said? About that bit it's that bit. It was a , it was a relationship you know? Mm. They thought maybe but then it was only Richard who accept in the relationship. The answer was no although he was eternally grateful. no I didn't. Thing is, he don't care. See because he thinks, he thinks . Notice that he the relationship wasn't going well Well his is a bit much innit? See he thought that he was just telling us doesn't want a relationship. He thinks that you don't care. You do really. If he says no, I'm gonna go up to her and say . I don't care! But it isn't fair cos you do. It is all my youth work. Aha. Should know the difference. finish with him. But then he said seen some people Mm mm. Cos, you'll probably get stuck relationship. Do you know what I mean? They do talk as though the perfect relationship. Mum! Oh she's off! Lyn, don't be silly, keep it! Oh well haven't even got a lot. See you! Ah ! Mum! Otherwise What ? if my for my best friend Jan Well I believe that'll Ah. . We went up to Wales, Wales. Yes. Oh my God! Actually at least it's not hard . Future husband. He's in rich blood. Let's just say no, probably cos Will she talk to him? Yeah. Come on. Better do it with your on Saturday. Came up to my place on Monday and Oh sorry! Sorry! Sorry! Cos, it's only about school anyway with the . Yeah. Cos hopefully, I mean, I find they've influenced us going to church . Yeah I know. You lot went round for it? Sharon is the contact. That's aren't you? Why? Cos you gotta put it down tomorrow this. Oh yes, but I know this but . Mind you, whatever the night life there won't be very many things like that. Right then! Let's see. Ooh. Get off! Look. Yeah. through there. Eh? You really think I'm going on it? Well he said you might. Well that's what I thought, I might , cos I don't like him anyway. First of all he don't believe I'm going. Dad Mm. wouldn't go in on there. Wouldn't he? Then you wonder, it's dead for both of u , our relationship is there, it's like a Oh Gosh! Ooh! Dishwasher. Yes. Gotta go soft with him . Yes. Two bags a week. .starts, that's what I say? You what? Matt! Matt! Matt! What? Where's your slippers? Ah? Where are your slippers? I'm wearing them. Wear your own ones! Oh there's his tape. Alright if I keep these on mum, I'm not going Yeah, that's fine. Oh! Lo , I don't want one. Take the . You want them boiled don't you? Yeah, please. Girls!at the top of the stairs if you want them! Thanks. How many do you want Matt? Three. This is the . Oh oh ! So you wouldn't mind the shoes this afternoon? Er, no. I don't think that's best. And wallpaper Kenny's room. Well the one wall should be Want a biscuit? Mm. All I know is that the Right. I'll let you buy one . Are there any apples left? Eh? perpetually. she was looking for them. Found another one. See the bottom half strikes my wrist. Sort of little . Who? No that's for two. I'm not having one, I'm having porridge. Well you've got school tomorrow . Begging , ha! Come and for me. I just don't know whether to stay half an hour after the . , comic relief. Mm? Check them. Do you want me to do that? Ah? I've not had this before. Got any Matt? Yep! I sorted all the out . Look at these tools and all that through here! Well I did see that. Matt! Oh oh! Matt! Coming. Get in there! What's that? What? Lovely mush! Hello. He can't hear me. Enough! Hello! that wall, put all Hello. these Superman against that . Put them up against that wall there. Right. Look at me. That's right. Are you still trying mum? Aha. All these have gotta go. Erm,them as well. Eh? Oh yeah. That's about right. Don't you dare knock that! Dad! Can I help you? Right. Mm? That's right. Hello dad! Laura, stay down there . Do those as well. On Friday. So where are you going?. Is it made with milk? Tasty isn't it? Mm. Laura! Oh, are you off now? Sa cycle with daddy. how do you do that? Well leave it till Ian comes in. Mhm. You ready ? What's Mm? What do you think of photograph? But you do box Yeah. And he didn't finish my wall. Be nice won't it? There's some in the bathroom, but we are gonna take that door off and have Mm. a pine coloured sliding one. I know what you mean. This little concertina job. Looks nice in that space on that . Mm. Looks good! What do you call that? I don't know. Let's have a look? Mm? Hey! It wasn't them. Those. Mm. Mm. Have I got meatballs again? Hey? I don't want some pieces of cake. That pan with the chicken on needs to go in the dishwasher. On it's own. Ask your dad if he wants to come and cut the chicken please? Dad, can you come and cut the chicken? Yep! Well that's gonna clog the dishwasher up. Matt, will you leave the dishwasher alone! Yeah. Do you want more parsnips than that? Yeah, please. Hungry. Get the last bus. Yeah, ask the bus man? Alright. Is that alright? Yeah, it's alright. Go on Anyway, I'll go and get Out the way please. Go on, chop! Thank you. Right, that one must go. Alright. Yeah. How do you get on with the dreaded ? ? Mm. no. In the air game Dad, can I make these up? No. Yeah, go on then. Oh no! Oh don't. Some there. It's too late now. It's come out. Come Laura! Constructive to such a Yep! Only . Want a leg? Yeah. I don't mind, I don't,the chicken so So It hasn't got any! Like that. Too late now. Are we going home now? You can get a little bit. Can I have lots of chips? Might as just well stay. Come out the way poppet. Can I have a le , leg of chicken? Not . Lots of chips. Do you want the parson's bum? Yeah, I don't the the chicken's Oh bum. You've got the bum! No dice! ? No. No, you have a leg love. I'll have a leg. Will you? Do you like stuffing Debs? Yeah, no Matt. Do you want some leg son? Yeah! Do you want some stuffing? No. When you say that Say no thank you. You don't want one? You don't want one? No he doesn't. Just ask me what I like. Is that enough chicken? Aha. chicken. Dad will do you. And watch daddy's chicken. Want a leg Pat? No. No she doesn't. Can you cut it up really small? Yes. Hey! I'm afraid there most of it's bust. Will Matt like this piece? Go on take that away Matt. You haven't. Go in there. I'm hungry as well. Well, well Matt What happens now? Just eat. Save that fucking cabbage! He eats this. He eats this. He eats baby food! Yep! Baby Carly's food. That's right. No baby Baby food! Messed up cabbage and and No baby food. Right, if any of the supermarkets have a baby counter anywhere here? For baby food? Yeah, you have baby food! This is cabbage and carrot. Mhm. Eats baby food. Yeah, cabbage and carrot! Look. I can give you a leg son. Ha ha ha! You You got You got him a leg? No. I won't eat all that! No way! I'm just and then you can Leave what you don't want. leave what you don't want. Alright, nay problem! I won't eat a leg as well. Right, come here then. Yeah! interest, we're now There's ? Is that, is that Matt's or yours? Where? Over there. Whose is this? I don't want one. We haven't got any cheesecake. Have I seen that one? One I am Hello! when I am ne Do you want a bit of chicken Laura? This is my Is that alright? I don't need my I have brown chairs. He actually said Mine. if you wanna ask Laura if she'd what did Sheila say to you? Well I Are you hungry? Yeah, and what did you say? who are No. Yes, you are hungry. Are you hungry? my No! You got a sore tummy? Have you got a sore tummy? Yeah? He don't eat a lot. You're full of crap Laura to be quite honest with you! You're just Yep! aren't you? Erm have you We're just waiting for it's Lesley and we'll have some photos er This chicken's hot . She's got a sore tummy. I'm reading a book. She's got a sore tummy cos she's not eating enough! Give her that. Give her some. Just a wee drop of chicken Laura? No. Some spuds and some peas and and carrots. Where's my plate? You've not had enough. How many shall I set the table for? You kids can sit there and we'll sit at the table. What? There look! Big spoon! Laura have a look at the chicken there, is that enough for you? Mm. Are you sure? Fine! What about some er spuds? Gravy! Mm! Want spuds? Yes please. Well I've got some of Matt's. Doesn't matter if you leave it, no. Do you want some more? Do you want some? Take half of this. Oh, can we take the skin off,. Take the bone off right? Pardon? Do you want the skin off? Yes please dad. I'll have some mashed potato. You'll have some mashed potato in a minute Laura. What? You can get that off. Mm. I'll see if that swede I want Swede? Yes,. Well it's whatever he wants. Go and sit down just now Laura. I'll do the dishwasher, if you want. You never mind the dishwasher! I know! I'm packing it . You hear what mummy said! Leave it just now son. I'll pack it all this afternoon if you like. That is on rinse, it'll cool down. That enough chicken for you Matt? Yeah, that's plenty. Will that cool down a bit? Yeah, when it's off. What are you having? Just that, I'll come back for it. I'm more than happy. a bit. . Matt, do you want a gravy? Please? Matt? Yes please? You didn't ask us whether we want Here Laura, eat that. Chris, do you want gravy? Yep! Yes, Chris wants gravy. Leave that. We're gonna get a knife and fork now . You sit down there son. When? Take the salt and pepper in. And that is nice bits of skin on there for you son. Right, thanks. She told me she wasn't having any. She's not ge , okay something to eat and still . Because her stomach, it's alright if she's not been sick. .Don't mind at all. She's alright now inside. Your dumb comments will not be required! Alright. Okay? Okay. Yeah. Sit up! If I get one more one argument one What am I arguing about? I'm just telling you! Laura ! Coming! Is this mine? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah? Sit at the table. for dinner. Don't want any dinner. I Can I start eating? Yes. What do you have to do? Eating. I bet she doesn't eat everything. Yeah. This Is there Cos I is there enough for two? , enough for two there. Well er, mine's . Well there's not enough for two to go round so I was . Sit up and stop bloody that! Sit up there! Ah! Pull the chair out! Can I have some beans now? Yes, it's being done just now. Salt there? Yeah. Keep meaning to she doesn't He's oh oh ! ? Yep. Oh don't Don't pick! Co , because because dad's here! Oh oh yeah! Shut up! You're getting malnutrition Laura! It means your body ain't got what it needs to Mine has! Cos you're eating properly, Laura's not! Get stuck into it! Enjoy it! You'll feel better for it. I am enjoying it. Enjoy it. You might likely be in bed if you don't eat that! Don't force me! What? I really don't want that . Well if you , you'll never eat it. So you won't be able to take it yourself. I am eating it really. I know you are. I'm not! You are! She will. She will! I get it's just the stomach ache . You've got stomach ache cos you're not eating! Mm! Is that ? Oh well I won't eat anything at all. Got stomach ache. You've got stomach ache cos you're not eating! Yeah! Leave me alone! I'm not sympathetic. When a new car comes well cos me and Chris will will have a drive of it. Cos you go of it on my own. Yeah. Don't wanna drive it! Then you'll miss out. You'll miss out all the good things! Cos you'll be in bed . Yeah. You're going to try You'll again Laura. But who says this? What am I doing without ? Not eating everything!? Mhm. Too much meat! Too much meat! You're starving dude! You you're greedy! Lovely! What about you then! Yeah! Yeah! Well! Is that potatoes. It isn't! And some more gravy. Mm! Mm! There's some Don't be gross! I'm not! It won't fit in. Mm! Mm mm! Gonna wear the . We'll eat everything . . Bit . Get out of it! Get out! Ah, I love it! I love it! been to see it as well. Where? You don't fill it in do you? Oh yeah, that was lovely! We had chicken tikka Mm. We had rice. We had some of that crisp stuff. It was good, it was lovely though. Poppadoms. Yes. Everything!there's nothing there. You won't be able to get up. Won't eat no vegetable at all. No! Well I do . Mum! I can't eat all that. What's up with you? What's up? Eat what you can ! You said I had to eat it all! That's right. Mum, I can't eat this bit this bit up there. You said I had to eat it in! Well you did. Mum? I can't finish that . Ah? I can't finish that much. Where? Go over to here. It's what? Mm!! You had enough to eat ? You sure? Mum? Mum? What? Are they them crispy things? What crispy things? Any more? Ah? Poppadoms we had last night. No. Them round things. No we haven't got any more. No, we've eaten them all. The things Where? No it's there. What the po are they thin and crispy stuff we er the round stuff in the sideboard Well yeah, and I had one of them. Oh you mean yesterday? Yeah. Well that Any Yorkshire puddings mum? No. Ah! These crisp thing right? Never had a Yorkshire pudding like this before! There wasn't any! Right, now hold on. Mum? I don't want this piece of chicken. Put it in the food table, he'll have it. Mum? What? Don't want this piece of chicken. Can't eat it. Okay. Chicken, chicken, chicken! I'll eat the rest. Poppadom! Poppadom! You don't look at me like that! Please say could you? What was that large thing I had last night mum? Ha? Do you want some Chris? Yeah. No, don't wanna get Mum, She's really done well. Sit back at the table properly! Eat everything! That's not enough. But can't can't eat any more. No, just you know leave it, some leftovers there. Mum? What? I wasn't gonna eat mine. Only there . I'm a real big dude! I'm a real Eh? ! Shut up! Yes ! It's, it's Ah! Doesn't mean you have to take the mick! I'm not taking the mick, I'm just saying You're taking the mick! You say I'd rather have Chris Why? Christopher isn't sleeping with us. Erm Just say when. When. Quite a lot there . Oh! Erm . Shall I tell you afterwards? Not quite sure. Not quite sure of anything! Tell you about that one. Ashley? Straight up! Look! Yeah. All the cassettes they gave us. Christ! All the thingummies and what have you. Got a log book and And how long have you gotta have it for then? A week. Yeah. And we'll get them Okay, where do you get the card? Mum? Mum, might get one Mum? of those cars today dad! I've gotta try and find that. She might do aye! Ashley! Don't! Baby Rebecca. Ben. What? My mum might get me one of those . If we can get it. Oh yeah! Might get one of them big ones! Oh! Why? Cos I'm collecting them. Are you? Yeah. I'm collecting ordinary one! Okay a mini one! Oh Mum, I bet you get more stickers in here Yes. than I should Helen got some trolls from somewhere. . I dunno where she got them from. Val gets them Mm! you can get some from And er and some from Woolworth cards. Woolworths. I I don't know if they do them in Woolworths. Yes they do! Oh! I already bought in Woolworths once! Woolworths, they have them an they have They got them in Woolworths. the best Mm. they are the most best people that They're good! Yeah. And,. You know what they do? They sell out you won't believe this they sell you won't believe this, they sell Come in! they sell them Come in! they sell them That Oh no!! Ha! You're a lovely Hey, don't you get all dirty! Dad that recorder thing's running. Yeah I know it is. I didn't! Ha. Ha. Ha. Look at the Come on! Oh! . Well! Oh! Oy! oy!! Ooh! Ooh! Cor! He's never even done Ooh! as bad as that! Pardon? That's unbelievable! He's tricking you! Look I put my finger in your mouth erm if I ever get stuck. Right, he crawls out without a fishing rod. Does he? Ooh! Quick ! my claws. Ah! Oh ya! Oh! It's mine! That's mine! No baby wet ! We got a excuse for me, right? Yeah. the dog. Didn't he? Don't think a bunny rabbit She's got a bit in her mouth. Yeah, but don't go Mum I got You're making excuses aren't you? Don't do that! What? Stupid idiot! Don't you Don't you call me stupid idiot! Pick it up! No! Well don't, you're gonna ! Get up! Put it here! Don't ! Well that is on your mat. Mm. Change! That's it! Yeah! How you feeling? What? That's that. No. Well I know but thing you've got to break this there. Yeah. Oh! Ooh! Hayley's Mm! Mm mm mm! doing the ? Yeah. Hayley's got the Oh! It's kind of like I've got both of them! What? That's good isn't it? I've got Pour some hot water on and put it in the microwave. Ah! Ah okay If it could work or in hot water. It's lovely and warm for hours! There was a medical programme Did it still stay warm? Mm! Can I make a little? Mhm. Like daddy's. Mhm. erm I've seen this stuff advertised there. In that programme that Well and I Give me one! seen that one, and it's really good! Quite hot. Even Uses snow and er Er nine thousand! Oh I don't even know if that's it. He nine thousand. Mm! That erm that erm oh it's gone away. This door is staying up. It's somewhere. No it does not! Well it does! No it doesn't! Cos we used to have it and we were ! When you did that, when th you took it off it was just black. . Well yeah! My jacket. Dad! Dad! Dad? Where you going? When when are my mum and dad sto when my mum comes back my dad said will you take us home? We can Yeah, but then we're not. I will Are you all going out? Are you all going out? Eddie! Come in here please? He went ooh! Ooh! Who's that? Ooh! That's ! Or go Ah! Can you do that? Yeah. You alright? Ah. You missed that. Yeah. Mm. computer. We got that. Eddie! I think something's upstairs. What? Yeah. Yeah, you mustn't anyway. I can go next. My mum is erm Can you lift him up? in erm . I didn't know about Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Two, three, four. One for you. And getting four. Oh! Oh oh! .Eight. I gotta take the top of my door off. Yeah. I'm gonna try and get I just need, it's this bit of the door I need to take off. . So why have I put the door on the outside? Some more haven't . Mum, you're gonna get about ten of them . Hey! Ready madam? Mm. Yeah. Right! Come on, get your coat on they'll be here in a minute! Me? Yep! Where we going? You'll see. Soon after three. Will I have to break in again? No, you're gonna ! Right. What we going on a for? Come on! Alright! Alright! I'm ! Do I have to explain every single thing to you! Just do what you're told and shut it!your ear bashing! Come on! Hayley! Come on! Quick! Ah! Ah! Ah! Ah! No! If you don't be quick. Hayley! Ashley, come on then! Hayley! Give Laura a kiss. I don't want to do it! Ooh! Coming? Where we going? Hayley? Coming? Ashley, come on! Where we going? I thought he was doing that again. Dad, where are we going? Come again. Perhaps dad will bring us round work next time alright? Yeah. What's that for? Ah! What's that? Ready? No we're going! Ready? We're going! Bye bye! We're going! Where? I was just We're going! No I'm not! Yes we are, now get your coat on! Alright. No. I'll see you tomorrow. Alright mate. Hello Matt. See you! Yeah, I'll see you there then. Bye! Bye! See you later kids! Bye! Bye! Yeah! Bye! Come on Laura, get your coat on we're going away in about ten minutes as well. Where we going? Right I'll see you later love! Alright? Where we going? I'm gonna fucking smack you all round this house very shortly! Get in there! Fucking in there! Do I have to ? You ever fucking saying right I'll give you a, want a smack? Fucking stupid little don't think you can bloody fucking mad! Get upstairs! You get upstairs as well! Are we allowed to have the video on? Fucking, fucking this morning! Before we even go any further! You were fucking lying there wrestling with your brother! I stood at that window and watched you for at least two minutes! Ben. You said no I wasn't! I wasn't wrestling! What were you doing? You give me a good explanation of what you were doing? I was listening to music and he . Ah! Right! So you were just lying listening to music in between the chair and the couch? No Chris , Christopher was. Were you wrestling with Matt? No, this is what happened. No. ? Matt was lying on the couch and then went and then I went over and sat on the couch and then Matt tried sa Matt erm pretended he was up to him and started I was already there! Shut it! Come in here! Who broke that? Well Matt blamed me You were ? No. So you broke that off with your head? No, I It was fucking ! No,! It's a funny , no! Well I don't, you don't see how he could do it? I don't see how you can fucking tell me barefaced lies like that! You were fucking doing it , now get up! Never seen anything so fucking ! And I say something so idiotic and stupid like that again I'll fucking all round this house!! Do you understand? If I tell you to do something you don't say, why! Where are we going? What are we doing? Do I have to be there again? Right. Go upstairs. Fucking! You get worse! With the . Get the computer off! It is off. Just about had enough of this shite! Fucking lying wrestling and then telling me, no, I'm not wrestling! What do you think I am a some kind of idiot! Ah? You take me for some kind of arsehole! No. Well you better not! Go in and get your face wiped! Dad? Yeah? The top of the tape by that Walkman's erm on top of those two china plates. Is it? Er Okay. So We will wait for Andrew to come up with his amendments and therefore we may as well go through the rest of the agenda. And slot Andrew's in when he comes in. So please. Can we roll that back as well then? Cos er Roll what back? Ah. Got you don't need to roll it back. Saved by the bell. Have you got a spare agenda? Didn't you get one Jim? You'd better get a couple Nola. Here you are. I'll get a couple. Right. We've done an exercise on on s on comparing er bridge and works projects,and er a few Q S individual projects erm against er A C skills or I R C Mhm. skills Cs. Erm Thanks. Just to sort of flag up jobs which were over a hundred thousand pounds and that had finished or are well on their way this year. Erm it's an exercise that you've been asking for. Morning. Yeah. Morning. Morning. This this isn't what was holding No. No. No. No. Oh. This is S No. This is the thing Ken done for us. Right. Erm Right. Well. Would you like to take us through in summary then Trev? What I, my remit to Ken was to go through with Duncan er projects which were over a hundred thousand pounds. Er that had gone to the Q S for documentation or Mhm. that we'd completed the erm er the site work on. And to extract from the DOPACS function codes, anything which wasn't within the scale of B. Mm. I E er railway liaison, er evaluation of multiple options. The sort of things that we cover in the er er code of practice for charging to clients which are outside this . So add in the quantity surveying element. And if the job was only at say er tender let stage to only take seventy percent of the fee, Mhm. in accordance with the A C E er method. And then to calculate the scale B based on the erm tender total or the actual totals, with the class D reinforced concrete or structural steelwork element added to it . Added on it. Yeah. Or for the Q S jobs just to compare straight I C S scale fee. And then to compare our design fees with the scaled fees. Indicate erm tt what the percentage was, because we've always been sitting round this table patting ourselves on the back, saying that er H er how well cost effective how cost effective we are. Now. It's obviously Th there are gonna be jobs in here that are flagged up as overspent, which aren't or which have got very very good reasons for Mhm. er and I'll be the first to recognize that and this was just a sort of the ball park stats that you were looking for. And it was quite worrying really when you look down here Yeah. just how many of er are in the right hand Are negative. column. How many negative ones there are. Bearing in mind that these represent the majority of the large jobs that we've actually had on hand. I've taken out jobs that er like er St Pancreas roof which is erm a total of a large amount of money for scaffolding, but really it's not a proper job. Wi wi there's no BES jobs in here because erm we haven't got the mechanism for looking at the BES er scale in in the timescale we were looking at. Mm. Erm Is th no no supervision involved? There's no site super there's no resident engineering involved and no Mm. workshop supervisors involved. Right. There's no railway liaison, there's no prices Mm. They would al they would a they would always come at ti on a time basis anyhow all those operations. These these are That's correct. Yes. We we've subtracted scaled fee scaled Yeah. fee costs against the equivalent cost of our design. That's right. Right. Accepting your qualifications, Trev, that erm there may well be good reasons for these, there is there is a very strong message there isn't there? I mean I've just worked out there's, there are twenty eight jobs there, of which er we've we've only really made a profit on eight. That's on the face Yeah. of it. This is only a sample though isn't it? Well. It's it we we took about fifty or so jobs that that were over a hundred thousand pounds, and then we knocked off erm the BES jobs and and jobs which were outside party, jobs where we hadn't actually done the design work. Erm we were just doing watching brief and that sort of thing. Er a and basically this is Mm. this is a sort of the sample that that we were left with. Er I'm not s erm er it doesn't include jobs that we've done the design work on and sent to the areas for building. Erm which Even if they're over a hundred thousand? Well. W we the mechanism of finding out the jobs You see I I Could I just hold it there? What what? There's something what are we trying to gain from this? We're trying to gain a feel as to whether we are being cost-effective Yes. or not in our design. Mm. Right? And what I don't wanna do, is is to get involved in looking at all these and saying, oh. Bloody hell. You know we l lost money on that but,an and trying to find excuses for that. The th the snapshot is that we've looked at twenty eight jobs, and out of those twenty eight jobs, if we have been working on scale fees, it would appear that we would have lost money on twenty of them. In other B but words two thirds of them. Yeah. That must give us a message. Cou could I ask, before we go too deep into the issue, that if we are gonna use this er er make proper use of it, that we have some time to analyze the To analyze it. figures? Oh. Yeah. Because I mean I spoke to Ken before he started doing this exercise, and I'm worried Yeah. that although we've taken supervisors out of it plus supervision, Mhm. they won't have taken the R Es out. Oh. We have taken the R Es out. Okay. Well let us us have a look at the figures if we could. Be because we can make some sense Agreed. after we've looked at the figures. Yes. Are these done on final But at the moment we're stabbing in costs? Agreed. stab in the dark at the moment. Or estimated costs? These are done on tendered tendered totals or actual costs. Ah. I would suspect that Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. In other words what you would have got No. What? you would have got paid. No. No. Lawrence was making the point that if if Wh there's a hundred thousand pounds worth of claims th then there are more fees that we would be entitled to. What Er should be on final? Sorry. Th the other thing is Yeah. as well is there's a big debate as to erm whether you do get paid on tender figures or whether you actually get paid on the estimated cost. Certainly the way the documents are laid out it's supposed to be estimated cost. Yeah. not the actual tender figures. What the ? Oi! A C E documents. No way. You get paid on final costs. Well. It depends which clause you look at. No. No doubt about it. Well. No. Y you're talking about the way that the Department of Transport have dealt with Yes. British Rail over the last thirty years. Mm. Well. Y need to look You need to look at the document Department of Transport jobs we do. you need to look at the document The agreements are based on the final cost of the work. Ah! The agreement the agreement. Now Terry's quoting Is the A C E condit Terms of engagement. terms of engagement. Engagement. Now. Now. That might be different. Which uses estimated cost. Right. I I think Terry's suggestion Erm is is the best one that we we now have this data. And rather than Make good use of it. leap in without looking at the detail of it, I think now the function heads namely you , Yeah. Roger, Terry and David, er need to take this away, have a look at it and at the next meeting we either then draw some conclusions and again what I'm looking for Recommendations isn't it? are lessons learned. I mean it may be that Ken has not drawn these up in the right way. On the other hand it may be that we are not cost-effective. And if if we're not, then so be it. At least we'll be able to address that. Er could I just ask the advice of the assembled expertise here? I've only got one item on the list which is the Haverton Bank Slip. Yes. Cos that Er now the bulk of the cost was in the s survey work. Is that normally a legitimate part of Yes. scaled fees? Er the actual design work was relatively slight. Yes. The survey work would be part of the project. Yes. Cos It comes in your first twenty percent, but for survey would be constituted into a survey Mm. up to four . So the survey would be constituted as se er twenty percent of the fees. Yeah. I it But that's only for Yeah. I it That's all you'd get. Be very careful that y you don't actually have to use the split that Roger's using. No. No. Bu but yes. It, that wouldn't be outside the scale fee. The survey is part of i if someone commissioned a consulting engineer to do a project, then he would be expected to do the survey, the the the scheme design and the detail design, and the on-site er management type of element for the hundred percent of the scaled fee. Okay. It's only if, but But after you'd done the survey you were asked to multiple options you Mm. would get paid for those multiple options probably on a time basis until Mm. somebody homed in on one and then you would be back on your scaled fee for the The the only problem, the only problem that actually when you're looking at this, is if in fact part of the feasibility involves you doing a survey, Mhm. then it wouldn't be involved in the scaled fee. It would be on a time basis. So it depends when it occurs. Oh. Yeah. Mm. Yeah. I mean I think the only one to look at feasibility to start with you can actually get away charging all the survey to the time basis To the feasibility to feasibility stage. In which case you c want And then keep your fingers crossed that you're gonna get the the next the development of the Yeah. of the options. So it just depends. Do each of you have a copy of this of of the A C terms of engagement? It was only me got a proper Right. Ca Trev? Can you get copies of the A C terms of engagement for each of the function heads and myself? Yeah. Can I raise a a point on this? There's I take it you're in a position to total these up with each other? Cos you know to look at the bottom line of total design fees against what they would have been if we'd gone in fixed price? Mm. Yes. Yeah. Well. That's if we'd gone in on fixed price on scaled fee On scaled fees. and of course and we would have been patting ourselves on the back saying we could go in under Well. under scaled fees with comfortably What I what I what I would say is something I found in in BES has happened while I've been here much less now than than earlier on, is engineers robbing Peter to pay Paul. Mm. And well I I I know I know on some of my schemes that can have a very dramatic effect. You can, in other words you can hide jobs which are badly overrunning. We don't want to do that. That I No. Indeed. We've always said that we wouldn't do that. A a and certainly the way that we are set up at the moment, there is no need for us to do that. No. I, that's not what I'm saying Trevor. I know I know we shouldn't Right. but what I'm saying is if it happens, Well. Once it, yeah. Once it happens we we, our credibility with our customers goes out the window doesn't it? But if we do that, all we do is we we delude ourselves. Exactly. Because what we what we want to know is is those jobs where we have done well, because we can learn the bollocking lessons from them. Those jobs where we've done badly because we can learn why they went badly and make sure that they don't happen again. Aye the, many of the reasons for these being over are nothing to do with the efficiency of the design office, they're due to the efficiency of the s Of the client. or or lack of it of our clients with the stop go attitude. It's on. It's off. It's on. It's off. Roll it back. Roll it forward. Rush it. I wasn't looking at the negative I was looking at er an extremely large positive Yeah. and wondering how we can do a job for two thousand four hundred and fifty, when according to the experts in the field it was gonna cost fourteen and a half thousand pounds. Which one was that? Near the bottom. The one at Neville Hill. The Neville Oh. Yeah. Hill pits. That's the pits we did. Yeah. I'm very suspicious of these tender fig I think these are the original tender figures and not what what final costs were. Poss possibly Roger that I I I'm sure you're probab I'm sure you're right Roger. which I'm sure you're right but . That will come out in your detailed look at it won't it? but even so we would like to think that erm that we can do the design work surely for the original tender figures, er and hope that our erm our drawings and er specifications are such that erm, and our site investigations are such that we shouldn't have major claims appearing on on our jobs. I I I know that that's In an ideal world very true. Anyway I'm delighted to to see we've at last got round to this. You might remember I've been pressing for this for about eighteen bloody months. To have a scaled fees figure. Roger I'd've given it you a lot quicker if you'd given me a list of jobs to work on. Yeah. It's But anyway. Well. I wanted to on the report you know so always had it with easy reference but Right. Good. Okay? Mm. Excellent. Thank you for that Trevor are now going to look at these figures and come back to the next meeting er with some comments,with regards to their projects. And Trevor will provide us all with copies of the terms of engagement. The A C terms of engagement. Good. When when can we expect this as a standard feature on the database? We can expect it as a standard feature from the database, once we've built the systems that hold the costs for the the estimated costs for value of the work. Mm. So that we then have got something to compare against something to calculate the fee on. Because er in the past people haven't filled in the value of the erm of the work element in in the databases. And I I don't criticize them for that, because the the fields that were in the databases in the past didn't d er w were sort of total cost of the Mm. job and y you weren't really knowing whether it included or excluded the A Cs anyway and that sort of thing. tried to put them at our at the cost of our of the work for quite a while. Yeah. But not, any rate m Does it include Q S fees? Yeah. Oh yes. Yes. Y Absolutely. Yes. It in it includes It ought to the Q S fees. Certainly. It shouldn't do really. Anyway Why? we can discuss that Mm. Well. Look. Q S fees are part of the seventy percent of the scaled fees. Of course they are. Mm. They're not extra. They're part of the hundred percent They're not. of the scaled fees. They are. It depends if you go in-house or you go outside Well we always go in-house. Well. That's our fault. No. Ah. Dave wouldn't you like to be sat here ? No. No. Dave knows what I'm talking about. No. I think he's making a valid point. Well. Only one Going outside. Look s s seriously the point the point I'm making is that for for most jobs of an average sort of size, what happens under A C E scale fees as I understand it, if I'm wrong I'm I stand corrected. But what in re in practical terms if the consultant can do all the estimating in-house, with a very limited resource. And sometimes that means sending a drawing out getting a contractor to price for it rather than him doing it, er using standard books and goodness knows else like Sponds. He'll come up with an estimated erm an estimated price and er and do most of the Q S-ing in house. But if it's a lousy job and he has to go out to someone like Mm. or somebody else, that m money is extra. Look. Sorry. That's what it says in the document Roger. Let's let's not We needn't debate it here. You're gonna get copies of terms of the terms of engagement, and I Ah. It's still not clear I mean we're No. Mike and and That's right. Terry and I talked round this subject for Some while. for for some while. Yeah. Again. Let's let's focus on Yeah. Right. what our objective is. Our objective is to see whether we would have made money on those or not. Isn't it? Yeah. Mm. And to establish I mean I think that as a g Ca group of twenty eight jobs if if, what we really need to know is overall Mm. because there will be jobs where we lose money. But overall on those twenty eight jobs, would we have done well? Would we have done badly? Or would we have done okay? Of course the bigger the job the less excuse there is for er not doing well. It depends on the circumstances associated with the job. As Trevor said in his opening remarks, Can Please look at can I just make these these four brief points? One a er scaled fees are based on tender figures but C D G Ps relate to actual final costs of project . So that that's Roger's erm er Roger's point. Scaled fees are based on a very rough breakdown of the project into structural design and other works . So. I it th the detail of the class the content might be just a, an approximation. Er there are many cases where it was difficult to tie up the appointment contract with the physical works contract. Some of the major differences could be due to this . And er an in-depth study would involve speaking to the relevant project engineers obviously . I agree with that. So i it is just a sore thumb exercise it it's er Yeah. Erm to plug up the It is. The immediate reaction is is one of disappointment, but let's let's get behind the figures first. Right. Nineteen ninety two ninety two ninety three annual report progress Kim and I met a chap called Darren from , and explained our design of this year to put an annual report together, which would be based on er a folder which woul could take individual A four er sheets. Erm so that we could actually produce about two hundred annual reports if we wanted, but we Mm. could use the same report cover by printing a s perhaps a thousand of those. And have those erm f for specific projects and reports and things like that that could go out in er er i in the future. Er we showed him one or two examples of similar sorts of presentations that we'd had from other railway and outside organizations, er explained what we'd done in the past, said that we were looking to get something more up-market and more erm professional, which was why we were looking to er er seek er quotes from er g graphics designers, linked in with printers. And we talked to him about the Intercity erm presentation requirements, and sent him away to think about it. He came back er ten days later er and produced a couple of er mock-ups. Erm. This was a sort of a suggestion of the of the layout Mm. based on er the type of stuff that we had last year. Er if I can pass that round. Er he he'd just taken some photographs out of last year's er annual report and put a heading up and stuck some text on it. We had indicated when we asked him to quote that we would want one sheet like that to represent what each office was able to produce. Mm.. And then we'd asked him Yeah. about the folder and erm er suggested that he considered the Intercity silver, similar to the report cover. Er a and he jazzed this up a little bit, and perhaps I think he's gone a bit over the top on it. Norman will quite like the er bit that P Way stuck on it. Oh. That's that's always there Norman. It doesn't matter what we put into these erm Quotes Kevin and Mick stood waiting on the platform. And that was an alternative that he came up with for the erm er for the front cover. What was the bottom Larry? I can't Three thousand nine hundred. Yeah. We were looking about four thousand pounds for for s for a thousand copies of the I think that's quite nice actually. Yeah. How do I look? Ah. Ah. It's just the it's just the largened the the the two white squares and Yeah. Ah. Yeah. . It's different isn't it? Yeah. Glorium ipsum dolor six pound Ha ha ha. That's ipsumdet Ipsum ipsum detabla Mm. We don't need it in Latin that's only added expense. At least at least nobody's gonna disagree with her . Erm Yeah. The f the four the four thousand pound quote was for I don't like that one. No. Was for a thousand erm No. a thousand folders machine varnished and two hundred Retail men copies of seven individual sheets to go in. That's based on the same number of colour photographs that we had in last year's annual report. Right. which I think was about What sort of difference is there if we if we put more pictures in or? Oh. The the the pictures are where the money is it's Right. that. Erm well. I think really what we want to do is to decide whether or not we are using the annual report as a a list of jobs that we did last year. Or whether we're using it as as a a mailshot reminding our customers of of how good we are and and what our improved facilities Mm. that we can offer are. And then we've gotta decide whether we keep it simple erm or whether we put loads of text in. Cos my feeling is t they only look at the pictures, Yeah. Sure they do. a a and they're only prepared to read one or two paragraphs of text. Mhm. I quite like the way that they've used the Intercity claret for the Mm. text here because it does make it that little bit more interesting and people are likely to think, oh! It's not black and white. I'll read it. Or I I'll start to read it. Mm. Then what's in there. I mean at least you've got a chance that they're gonna stay with you and er a a a and read the odd paragraph. Right. There are a number things I think we need to debate. Number one is, how much are we prepared to spend? Yes. And and and the three thousand nine hundred doesn't seem out of this world as far as I'm concerned. No. No. No. It erm I mean up, are we prepared to go up to five thousand? Or? Seven? Or? What did we spend last year? Erm How much copies is that then? In simple terms? Well. I if we talk about holding Thousand thousand About two. Well. No. We're talking about a thousand covers, cos the actual extra cost of print once once you start printing it the run on cost is is negligible. Erm We're having a few extra of these if you want to send something else out It cost five hundred and forty five to print two hundred of those, and cost eight hundred and fifty pounds to print A thousand. a thousand. Now Jim wanted to have some of those to send out future mailshots Mm. on on specific technical erm Yeah. That's what I thought we'd agreed Mm. hadn't we? Yes. Good idea. We're gonna have A four sheets Yeah. with a single, oh, that's right with a single project on and we just Ah. No. No. No. No. Well. I need to clear this because I've got totally confused on the last briefing, and I thought What? we were doing two things. We were producing an annual report Mm. which had probably one sheet of everybody's in with a couple of small photographs. Maybe double-sided. A description Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. the talk. And it didn't list jobs. Why not? It said this is what we're capable of doing. Correct. Yes. And then we're having another thing with the same sort of brochure as a mailshot type thing in loose-leaf format. In which there'd be a picture and a description with a few words. Right. Well. Every time we do one That's that that's fine. it, yeah. every time we do one of those if we have it printed on on glossy paper to this sort of style you're looking at sort of erm Couple of Th the principle of having a large number to spare t two or three hundred pounds. seems to me to be good. Oh. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. That's what I was meaning. Er er ca can can I digress a little bit beca I wo and then come back? Because I, there are a couple of things that are relevant? We've got we've got the the financial commentary now er an and the annual report to go out. And that needs to go into that nee that needs to go into something like this to go out. Or does it? Well. The question i the question in my mind is this. How is a presentation such as that gonna be received by our clients? In the present financial climate? I think we'd get away with it. But I put it on the table because it is a risk. Yeah. Well. We all thought the Swindon one was over the top didn't we? Even when We did. we weren't in such a financial state we're in now? Yeah. And that was cos maybe it was too thick And also and too it was too much of an ego trip for certain personalities as well. Well yeah. So I think si number of pages Yes. you know if you do something that's twenty pages, they'll think, bloody hell . If you do something that's only six pages Mm. Yeah. That's alright. number of pages involved Mm. Agreed. Yes. I mean, ah. My instruction was Oh. Erm our estimates were based on one sheet per function Plus a double-sided sheet Yeah. Yeah. a double-sided A four sheet with That's fine. with with two or three colour photographs. That's what Yes. I don't think anybody would say that's over the top. Right. We'll go for it. We'll go for it. Plus a couple of pages of That's decided. general policy Yes. written by Hugh. That's right. Yes. The sort of introduction Yeah. didn't we do well? I I mean last year About the year if if you remember we we kept the annual report bit, the financial bit just down to to one side. Two four six we could probably get it down to a a quarter of a side if Yeah. And we don't need to put anything in about our our scales of fees and that sort of thing. That's a separate issue . Oh That's right. Yes. Right. So. We'll go for it and we'll and we'll risk it. Now then. The next thing is er on the agenda we've got the or I thought we had. In in the any other business I'm gonna raise the question of us doing work for Irish Railways. Oh. That's this afternoon. Sorry Now we've been approached by Irish Railway with regard, they've got something like thirty million pounds from the to upgrade line from Dublin to Belfast. And they've hopefully they're gonna come and see us, to seek our advice on the design techniques that we've used on East Coast Main Line, and the construction techniques with particular regard to bridges. But I also felt that that we have something to offer in terms of works BES Station design and and and P Way. So they're gonna come and see us. Now. If we had this up and running, the sort of thing that we would do is put together a package Yeah. and hand it over. So Yes. I'm very supportive. If if you are? Yes. Definitely. In in terms of having that. I'm sure a lot of, it it'll not take as long to sort it out, because we've broken. We broke the back of it a lot on the work that we did for Rickmansworth. Mm. Erm It's really only a case of each function sifting through the information that they've pulled together from the annual report. Erm I mean I I've got from I think I've certainly got Roger's and and Norman's erm stuff for Mm. you know er for the annual report. Which is actually a You've got my text but not pictures. Right. which is actually a You know it's in in the form that we've done them in the past. Right. Er obviously we will need to decide on rationalizing that down, to to highlight one or two of the larger jobs and Mhm. and and erm a and build up a little bit of er text on just how good we are, and what we can produce, and how well equipped we are. Both in in e in equipment and in er But, we've still two I still see we've got two documents though. Mm. The annual report and the loose-leaf thing that Yeah. The leaf. we will hand over . Hand that to to Irish Railways. Now if we do the annual report properly, pages from the annual report can progressively be incorporated into this loose-leaf, and others taken out, and Mm. Right. We're talk you know This this loose-leaf So you've only got one bit. You're setting up and prin the setting that's the expensive bit not the running off isn't it? No. That that's correct Roger. The, what we're talking about though forgetting the run-on costs which which really we can discount because they are negligible. We're talking about something in the region of four thousand pounds to do the the loose-leaf brochure and seven sheets. What do we want to spend on top of that on printing an annual report? And who are we gonna send it to, if anybody? I mean we used to do the annual report because the R C E had to provide something to the General Manager Correct. and it was never anything But any any other than text was it? You any business produces an annual report. Mm. Mm. But they they have to produce an annual report for For their shareholders. their shareholders. That's right. No. It's not for their No. customers. That's a s th that's a different sort of annual report It is. . That's a financial Yeah. s financial accountant statement for the year. Yes, I mean it would include most of that. Now we've never done anything other than very very s briefly precis Mm. the the end of year results. So you know What are we trying achieve? What are we trying to do? Yeah. saying do we need an annual report? If we That's right. Mm. put all our energy into our loose-leaf . We have an annual report for er this end of year financial commentary. There will be nothing to stop us taking that, erm binding it up, sending it to Peter a a and Chris if we wanted, Yeah. a a and call it a day. Er It's about as interesting as a financial report from anybody. It's a promotional document. That's right. way even less interesting than . Really really what has it got to do with our clients? That's right. Absolutely. Really all you need i I mean this is a marketing medium we're trying to Shh. Yeah. Mm. cos as far as annual reports are concerned you just want a statement from Hugh, and a rough idea of how we've performed financially. Mm. There's no detail. Could I could I say this? That's right. Yes. The there's there's there's an interesting way involved in my mind when I started writing this in this changed format from last year. And th and and what I did is, all Roger's got so far is about one sheet of A four typed up or something like Trevor. that. Trevor. Sorry. Erm which basically says what the main issues throughout the year were. Problems with staff, Mhm. erm certain types of design we concentrated on. Possibly something about clients. I can't quite remember what all that's in it now. Erm and then I thought, now, what I can't do is I I can't do what we did last year a and really put a photograph and a des and a description of it. And that's why, then in my mind I thought, yes. Well. It, we'll we'll put those in this loose-leaf format where we can sli whip out all the BES ones etcetera if we don't want them Right. and just send our own thing off erm separately. So. It seems to me that that there's some manoeuvrability. That if we want an internal report we don't have to include photographs. If we wanted an internal report er to go to a few selected clients that report would mainly be text. Cos Mm. it's telling people including the staff what the main issues were and how we fought through them. So that the only one That's right. you actually need to be t send outside externally or to clients, is the one which has the loose-leaf format showing, here's a mega- project. Picture at the top, short description Yeah. at the bottom. So. I mean that that's another alternative is that we don't bother with pictures. Mhm. We put we put I m I mean we don't actually bind the report up in the er how we would do professionally. It depends how we want to tackle it. C can I? You just slide that into a loose-leaf Yeah. Great. Thanks a lot Terry. That's that's cleared my mind a bit. Erm I I still feel, as as a a business, we need for our own purposes an internal report. Mm. Are we agreed on that? Yeah. Yes. I think That's fine because We don't need that to go out to clients. we select Yeah. What issues What I would like to think, and I would like to keep that formalized, because if we don't it's just gonna drift and and Right. and and I mean I I often refer back to the annual reports. What I would like to think is is that we put together an annual report for our own purposes, and that goes out to a very limited distribution, as Trevor was suggesting. Right, we could bind that ourselves. We could bind that ourselves Plus our own staff. You see there were complaints Yes. last year that there weren't enough, and that a lot didn't get one, and they were all disappointed. We could bind that ourselves at next to no cost. You know. And and we bind it in th n in the way that we Normal bind up our normal reports. C E D G reports. Mm. Right. Right. So that's what w w are we agreed we'll do that? Yeah. I'm surprised at that Rog cos we've Mm. still got some left. Ah. Right. Lots of them. Yeah? Well. Not lots I mean we've probably got about twenty or so. I mean it's surprising how how often they get used through the year And we use them by people people who come are coming for interviews That's right. or people Mm. who want to er Well. Yeah. They're very useful. That's it. I'll have some of them, and I'll find out how many. But that's Right. but that's the annual report that we bind up For our own purposes and and and Right. the only people help are mind doing that. John Peter and our own staff. I think it's important that our own staff see our financial Oh. Yeah. figures. Yeah. Yeah. Mm? I think the interesting, yeah. And I think those charts are very interesting about where the client base is Yeah. for each individual office. Good. That's very good. The problem with that is of course that Go on. if you're wanting to produce two hundred of those I mean if we colour photocopy and you're talking about forty five pence each We don't have to colour photocopy them just s try it in black and white and see what it comes out like. Yeah. But they're they're awful in black and white. I've not seen them. How muc how much does it cost for a printer to w to whip off two hundred then? Year before last A lot. Well. That's th that's where the money comes. Colour is very expensive. I mean that's the same as a colour photograph. Yeah. But what's the ? I mean the only other thing we could do would be to downstairs? That's forty five pence Forty five P forty five pence a sheet. Mm. The the only other thing we could do would be to put would be to make colour acetates and then team brief them. On the overhead projector. No. No. People want to be able to take it away and study it. If it's in brief it's up Mm. and it's gone and you're Well you can put in on the wall afterwards. It'll save money. Yeah. You s you see Can't? two hundred of our staff won't be interested in that. Do Right. do they want individual copies? Could we not just put No. I don't think they do. could we not just circulate them? The pie one is the interesting one as as Terry said. Yes. So people know where our work is coming from. Can't that pie one be done so it would erm Oh. Yes. We can do it we can do it in do black and white? we can do it in black and white Roger. Yes. I mean you can get the different hashing and what not. That come That's erm out in black and white. Yes. Yes. That's enough. I think that would come out in black and white. That's enough You can see where the arrows are. Ah. A Most people Okay. We'll we'll we'll try and plot it then produce say twenty odd of them and circulate them? Yeah. Or you could have a visual mounted display on the boards outside for No. People just wouldn't . they keep coming down. I I I think if we produce twe say twenty odd and we circulated them through the sections. Those people who were interested would read them Right. and those who wouldn't weren't interested For twenty odd you might as well run through the printer Trevor. True. Mm. Let the printer do it. Oh yes. Yeah. We'd just set it going and just Let them . There's no point in No. paying No. forty five pence a copy when you've got a printer there. Jus just just set it going and go go and have your dinner. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. It's just you know And certainly we're not trying to impress we're trying to get information over aren't we? Yes. That's right. So there's no need to go to great expense of printed what have you. That's right. It's externally where the money needs to be spent. It is. Yes. Correct. Which is why the other package which wants doing in Mm. this format with That's right. single sheets. So. How many copies of the annual report? I mean every every one of us should have a copy. Are we talking about this Yeah. financial, the whole of this financial commentary plus Plus plus a commentary from each function head. plus a commentary from each function head. Right. Yeah. Three copies for BES. Shall we send one to the people who are going to Scarborough conference? Yeah. Probably. Yes. So we're talking about twenty Twenty four twenty five say. Twenty five copies? Mm. Right. When you send the erm the text through for your erm annual reports ca can you let me know where where it is on the network? Mm. If you just tell me which directory it is and what file name it is then we put it all together and erm get at it. I'm slightly confused now. We're gonna do an annual report and I I've no problem with that. And doing the write up. But what about the write up for the Right. Glossy. other? Yes. Well. We're gonna have to collaborate on that aren't Yeah. we? Cos we're gonna have to decide on a style and then I mean what I'll do is I'll come and sit down with each of you and and we'll I've got one drafted out already. Great. It's very limite it's about, it's it's one picture, about Mm. half an A four and then it has something like, no more than six or eight lines. It says who the client is, what the approximate value of the job was, who the contractor was, and the main issues. That's about jobs you're talking, individual projects ? Mm. Mm yes. Right. That's what you were talking about I thought we were No. We're not. I'm Ah. I'm talking I'm talking about Oh. Right. Well. Let's let's get straight what we are talking about then. Well. No. Jim's talking about what's going on That double sided on that double sided Oh. Sorry. Right. Cos I've finished with annual report haven't we? Yeah. Now. Wi with the other, the other exercise is a marketing exercise isn't it? Mm. And basically, again can we just talk about what we're trying to achieve? My understanding is what we're trying to achieve is, to have a a a double-sided A four sheet, which is intended to demonstrate to our clients, what good lads we are and what good work we do for each in each function. Mm. And that's it basically isn't it? No. Ter Terry's going on one stage No. further with the the project which is I didn't think we were doing that because that that that becomes very difficult then. And I can see why Jim possibly is confused now because I'm confused No he's not. as well. Oh, you're not confused. Right. There's only one person confused round here Terry . But we but we but we will have to to me No. To me I thought we were doing, individual projects which we'd be able to be update in a loose-leaf format Yeah. as new pro as old projects went we threw the old one away and we put a new leaf, loose-leaf sheet in. And I'm ha but that means if you only actually fi it, to do it professionally you want enough room to do one project on one side of one sheet. No. That wasn't about, it wasn't about projects. The marketing exercise for me wasn't about projects. You might wish to put a project in to make a point Fine. but It was about numbers of staff . It was about It was it it it it was about for example Yeah. this is this is BESs Expertise. staff complement. This is what BES can do, and have you heard the latest about fire security? Are you aware that your lighting might not be appropriate for your V D Us? You know marketing in other Mhm. words, getting in at a a a particular point on a particular subject. Right. We do need to discuss it further then don't we? We do. Yeah. Can I suggest that we talk about the four thousand pound job as a sort of practice profile if we like? Yeah. Or or or f for want of a better name at this stage. A and the annual report is, the financial summary plus the text that you would normally have provided Yeah. For previous years ago about about successes and failures and problems and Yeah. er al and and future aspirations. Yeah. Now that's good because it does, it gives us a record which we can refer Yes. back to and Mm. and see how we've gone over the year. . And that will be circulated to internal erm Staff. We're gonna need more than twenty five cos we're also gonna to send it off to one or two major er er certainly Peter and people like that I think. Yeah. And that we publish ourselves? That's right. Yes. Yes. Yes . Well. Aim for fifty. We'll have enough for fifty won't we? don't like to hit the clients do you? No. No. We don't want it to hit the clients. Otherwise they're gonna be getting two No. different horses. No. We don't It's in it's it's internal Internal. It's internal. We look at that the annual report We. We agreed to twenty five didn't we? Now Yeah. if if you think that's too few I I I don't think it needs to go to anybody other than Peter really. Do you? I think it's Peter It's Peter and John . I think twenty five is too few really. Thirty. Well. I for you And we can always print a few more up Terry there's no To you my boy. We're doing it ourselves yeah. I need seven. Seven. Seven I need. Three. Seven. One. Three. Six . One. Nine. Erm nine. Four. Shall we go for fifty? As Terry says? Let's go for fifty. Okay. Right. Let's get back to the Right. I'm printing that. Yeah. Let's get back to this this other document. This, we're all agreed that it's a marketing exercise and what we're trying to do is to get across to our clients, what we have to offer to them. Yes. And how are we gonna do that? We're gonna use this one or two sheets of A four. Yeah. Jim's got a fairly clear idea of what he wants to do for BES. Er I think Terry just wants to expand on it. Don't you? I mean y you want what Jim wants but you want another one That's right. And I'm happy to general background like I've got so many staff. Some are professionally qualified, some are technically qualified. We're experts in surveying work. We've got Auto-Canon, that general sort of build up. Yes. Erm but then I think we need er I I was hoping we were going that step further Yes. in producing Yes. individual project sheets. Ah. But every project sheet that we produce you're looking at two or three hundred pounds for each sheet. That that that's the only drawback. And if Jim's got some some new form of escalator that he wants to er sell to the customers, or or or whatever,th then Mm. we will produce those for that purpose. You see if you're selling in a magazine or on television or anywhere, you don't talk about what you've done, other than to if you like exaggerate the point. What y you're selling something different to them aren't you? Mm. If some new technology comes on line for BES, then I can scare clients into having t to give us work like under the Health and Safety legislation. Then that's what I want to do. That's what I want to use it for. Why are you looking at York But surely and not somewhere else? Yeah. Absolutely. but sure but but but surely there is also a lot to be said for I I mean you don't go and buy a V W Golf G T I just because somebody says they make one and wouldn't it be good to have one? You go there because you've seen somebody else has got one. And how good the quality is. The what? So you're looking at The car . the car. So you're actually looking at the quality of the product that this particular Mm. erm department is offering you. That's why that you can't get I I appreciate exactly what Jim's saying. Yes. We can do this and nobody else can. That's great. But you've also gotta say, and by the way this is one we did earlier. Oh. That's what I mean you you use those as examples Yeah. to back up the main point you're making which is I mean that's not a w Sorry. The the sort of thing that that I would be if I were in running your function Terry, would be to say, look at this package that we've developed for P T E stations. That's right. Yeah. And here are some examples of what we've done. Yeah. We can give you the following. That's right. Standard timber platforms. Standard platforms. . Yes. Your Exactly. standard Yeah. And have a sheet on that, Absolutely. with estimated costs of the an and an exact Costs. And how cost-effective it is. How how Yeah. speedy it is to . I'm only talking about having something like four sheets for the, in total. I I I appreciate your point about cost but I'm four or six sheets at any one time Yeah. forming part of Yeah. But the i Can I make just a suggestion? the idea was to launch this wasn't it? Under you know some sort of little bit of bullshit if you like saying Yeah. th this is the first of many updates, Yes. Right. that you'll receive from the various functions. Now Okay. I would like, sort of have mine headed, Building Engineering Services Update Yeah. so that the client can see that you're keeping it up to date. Well. I think that I'm happy to do that. But the only query that Trevor's put in my mind is the fact that he's saying that the cost is gonna be extortionate. No. No. No. No. What I was saying was Don't Very very careful what you say it because it's very expensive. What I'm saying Terry is, It is. if we've given ourselves a budget of four thousand pounds and we've ear No. That's and we've earmarked that at the moment. No. And we're going to print Mhm. an annual report internally at virtually no cost Mm. let's decide if we're going to produce a glossy sheet for each job, or a glossy sheet for each erm future update Or package. Yes. to custom whatever. Then we've got to decide how much we're prepared to spend on that an and when we're gonna spend it. That's all. Right. A a and there is a real cost, a proper cost not just a erm an internal cost for preparing these. But you're not talking about every job are you? No. No. No. Prestigious jobs Mm. Right. which might not be at year end for example. I'm I'm supportive of what Trevor says. If if we do a special works job or a special bridges job that we feel we've done particularly well, then we can produce for that job The loose sheet. the sheet. Yeah. And I think it'll be wonderful. And on a major project like that it might be sensible to bill that sort of thing into the fees at the at the outset. Indeed. because the client's gonna get the kudos of it. So we might as well er er Get paid for it. get paid for it. Yeah. Yeah. I mean a classic is Then it costs you to say Knot Knottingley steelwork. Is a definite there. Yeah. We're gonna do one on that. But at we're gonna also add, on the sort of general description amount we give structural advice on any sort of project. That Like Leeds City Station. Great. Waiting shelters. If if you chose Knottingley Bradford Foster Square? the sensible thing would be Mm. To have a combined one. for me for the C E D G to have a combined BES Works There may be some presentation. that can be combined. There may be some that can be combined to save money. That's right. I mean Knottingley is perfect. Oh. Yeah. An and I mean what are we trying to say? We're trying to say, we can provide you A package. with a comprehensive package. Mm. Yeah. And lose money at the same time . And they don't need to know that. Not necessarily. It was a laugh. It was an exercise But these this is a Not Yeah. Right. Right. Lie it down. I'm happy with that. I take it that we're not, that that's gonna be the second phase then? Mm. We get this bit out first Well and and then we come back with this second phase. Well. Yes. But I possibly the point I mean we can't afford it to look to drag on too long. We need to set a timescale on it. Ri w with Terry and Jim and the first ones and a a and and and agree them and say, yeah. That's ex that is exactly what That's right. we want. And then Terry and er sorry Roger and Norman and erm David can Now work from that. what it would be interesting to would be to using the What do you mean? using the Mm. cross rail tender type of document would be to have a standard three or four sheets that were relative to the whole group. I I know you you know you have a specific BES one when it goes Mm. out gotta be A group one. er in case you didn't know That's right. Yeah. this is who we are. Yeah. Yeah. the key items Absolutely. a a a sorry. Th th Sorry Trevor. the skills and facilities that we Yeah. that we have. I E the C V type of stuff. And you'd want one to tell them about CAD for example. Yes. That we've got X machines and systems interactive You know you didn't know before but now we have we have if you like. We know can do anything on CAD for you. Intergraph, Autocad, MOSS I mean they didn't know that do they? Superstress Mm. P G D, C B D. And then there are subjects like that which are non project specific but which are That's right. Yes. important. Yeah. Exactly So. This is useful. Erm so what are our main messages in this document? To help Comprehensive service is surely number one? Right. The fact we can offer Yeah. comprehensive engineering service Expertise. Comprehensive service. High quality finished product. Look at these photos. Experience of working in r er er a railway environment and minimizing disruption to the A wide rang a wide range of clients. Safety. Safety. S We must tell them something about our staff as well. Yeah. That was e I thought that was in expertise Mhm. but perhaps that's not quite Yeah. CAD. Yeah. Er professionalism of staff. I'm gonna have to pop out for a moment . That's a point . That's that's enough to start isn't it? Mm. Yeah. too Yeah. long-winded. Excuse me for a moment. Well yeah. And you want, well I mean, each A four sheet needs to be on a particular subject. Mm. Doesn't it? I mean you know some people will be particularly interested to read about what we're doing with CAD. Well the same message one side. Yeah. You know. Up to date with CONDAM regs Condom regs think of him he's a world expert on CONDAM everything CONDAM regs. Oh CONDAM regs. I thought you were gonna say It's like this set of golf clubs he wants. You know that he buys because everybody else does. No. The ones I've got very hot. Mm. His golf cl He, he's I thought he was Taking A whole hour off. Did you hear that Norman ? Yes. Jim too. We wer we weren't gonna mention that. Ah. No. No. Only at one hole. Only at one hole. Mm. Tt. Yeah. Yeah. Normally we'd be talking about him but because the tape recorder's on Yeah. Switch it o switch it in on again now. Let's hope you know er Hughie doesn't listen to that bit. That's all is it? Right. Thank you. Whoopee. Right? First of June we talked about didn't we, to get Yes. We did. ? Yeah. Right? That's for this? That's for this, yes. Not for the annual report. No. No. No. Who's in the initiative? Goodness me.. Yeah. Well Jim and I are to start with to get the er track. Are we? Are we gonna Mm. W Can we? firm up on partner's design? Do you want us to go to other graphics firms for alternative quotes? Alternative designs? I mean at the end of the day it becomes subjective, like choosing wallpaper. Mm. It looks I I I think what they've produced is pretty good. I would say that to we should give you a bit of freedom in terms of price, therefore I think we should er allow you to spend up to say five thousand pounds? Right. Erm it it doesn't er er a from what I know of the the Swindon one, five thousand pounds seems very fair. Yes. They paid a lot more than . Mm. return them. Yeah. It is quite out of It is five date now. It is five percent of our expenditure budget for this year of course. For our you know Mm. Sorry. It's five Ks less lighting improvement, carpeting Mm. But you work on you work on the principle that you'll only get that back and more . If you don't the whole thing Yes. Is a waste of time? is a waste of time isn't it? Yes. Yes I agree. Mm. I agree. Any advertising's gotta cover itself. Yeah. Mm. Is it part of the Intercity trademark that the silver swallow has to go to to right-hand up to Mm. the Er a wire which is? It has to be a certain size it has be flying Yeah. at a certain speed Cos that's important. That swallow while it's not We haven't discussed that in great detail. By the way . Yeah. But we we will make sure it's in the right place. The slight sna the slight snag is it says Intercity. Well. Yeah. We've had this argument before. Well unfortu sorry. A a and if it says Intercity it then it then it really ought to be maroon or the that's corporate. You can have the No. . That's corporate. You can have the Yeah. that corporate standards would apply there. Look. Whether we like it or not You can have the choice you we we are can have we are owned by Intercity and and and that is what we're selling at the moment. Okay? Not for long though. Well for two years. But we're we're that's the most prestigious subsidiary of British Rail that's what It is indeed. we're selling. Right. Okay. I wouldn't like to have the British Railways I'd go along with that. Mm. But don't tell them. Or Railfreight Distribution. So I suppose you're fairly happy with your fif fifteen point nine I'll tell you what I'd rather be Intercity than Central Services in terms of the market we've got. . No problem. Have you seen the civil engineer of Railfreight Distribution? No. Oh yes! John Ah no. No. No. He's I can't . I just couldn't believe it. ? Yeah. Oh god. Right. Ah. Very good. So you've got five thousand pounds I mean whether Right. he takes his friend to work I don't know. Nigel's going to be turning in his grave. Yeah. Five thousand pounds to spend I'm lost. an and we're gonna get it out by the first of June. You know that? Do you remember? Right. Really? Mm. Out by the first of June? That's our target date. Right. Good Trevor and Jim are gonna produce the first How? the first sheets er and in the meantime, I mean I'm hoping that Roger and Norman and Dave are at least putting something together, Mm. so that when the first sheets are produced it's just a matter of saying, oh, yeah, I'll edit this now in that sort of format. I mean if you could You know what we're looking for now. We're looking for about two big paragraphs or so plus some photographs, to go onto one of these. So if you could precis or select from the text that you've already prepared for the annual report, something that will go in there that says why your functions are Brilliant. the best thing on B R for that particular discipline. Then er it it's only gonna be a case then of knocking it into the same style for all Mm. seven sheets. Great. If we say fifty percent Good. no more than fifty percent photos in those two sides? Yeah. Yeah. You can have the the the the general? A Have a two, two or three photographs. Up up up up to three photographs. Er two on one side one on the other one Well you you said one A four sheet now you're saying it's double-sided. Oh it's certainly double-sided. Double-sided glossy That's Mm. two. No. It's one double-sided. It's the one double-sided. It's an A four sheet doubled-sided Mm. up to three colour photographs per function. Yeah. But And I and I would also say that if if for example Roger felt that he couldn't get all of the message that he wanted on there that we would consider two. Selling him some space from your space David. Mm. Oh but why ? colour photos . Alright. If Terry does. I'm happy with that Not BES though. I know that's gonna push the the the cost up No. I'm I'm I'm I'm easy. Yeah. If you, all I don't want us to do is to start drifting into the second exercise as part of this first exercise which sounds very much Alright. you're starting to talk projects rather than Yeah. I er rather than function . I just I I just feel at this stage I just don't wanna constrain people so much that Alright. we that we don't get any value out of it. I mean maybe if Roger came up and said, well, I want five, then clearly we would say, come off it Roger. Let's have a look. But I'd rather I'd rather he presented us with five that we could then reduce to two, Yeah. than Mm. than have to constrain himself to one and and and there's just no m content there. Are you with me? Yeah. Yeah. Because then we could make a conscious decision as as a management team, as to whether we were gonna increase the price to five thousand five hundred or six thousand Yeah. and get so much more value out of it. And then of course there needs to be a a budget for the rest of the year doesn't there? Yes there does. Yes. For for presenting projects. Good. Right. Next item. Project safety training for project engineers. Now then. This has come about as a result of, well no. It it had been on the agenda before. And if you remember in the past, we agreed that we would send either one or two people on the project management safety courses that were being run by Vic . Or had been organized by Vic . And somebody was gonna go and review the relevance to this organization, so that we could determine what we did about it. Mm. And our feeling, if if my memory serves me right, was that we felt that our site safety courses were adequate and gave Correct. a reasonable training. Right. So that was Plus all our other courses. Yes. That's right. We thought we had enough expertise with our our in-house training, without having to go on a separate one thousand five hundred pounds project management course. Right. Since then Jim who manages the project engineer course, has spoken to Trevor, and also since then we've had er contact from Regional Railways our major client, who have actually said that they require us to have this expertise. With regard to Leeds North West. No. projects which they will select. Over to Trevor. Jim is coming to see me on the fourth of May. Is that Tuesday? Yes. Mm. Erm and Hugh has changed his diary so that erm he can see Jim as well. And it would be helpful, I know it's short notice, but if erm those of you from the erm tt er design function groups who will interface with the project engineers, I E bridge works, BES and and P Way, if you could also attend it i if if it would be possible. I mean we're only talking about half an hour or so er at some time around about eleven o'clock on Tuesday morning. Jim's very convincing about the th the difference between this course and the sort of courses that erm er that we have actually run, and and erm automatically include in our training for our our staff. I mean Jim's a civil engineer himself and he knows the skills and disciplines that that that we work to. He points out that this safety exercise is about assessing risk where one set of circumstances might be alright within that particular discipline, but when you actually put that along the side of a similar sort of marginal safe systems, that are in other disciplines, er th that you might end up with a conflict or or or highlighting some form of erm er permutation, that could end up in in what satisfies all the codes and regulations and blue books and whatever, but at the end of can do this and nobody else can. That's great. But you've also got that that that you notice well down the erm the expenditure on a project, that you're gonna have to have to go back and change something that should have been sorted out at the start. Does he give examples? Yeah. But they're not very good. He does but they're not very good as far as we're concerned. He he gives examples of level crossings that might be perfectly alright as erm automatic half barriers in their own right, as far as er signalling constraint, and as far as siting constraint. But when you actually put them all together, and and recognize the traffic flows, and the location of the nearby school and the shopping centre and on one or two other things, that at the end of the day this perhaps is a site where tt er full barriers and and C C T V might be more appropriate. Other cent o o other jobs where what you're doing. What you're Mm. I I don't Yes. It's project engineering Roger but it's actually saying that the project manager needs to be trained to to ferret out certain information. The project manager? Yes. Yeah. I'm happy with that. And that the people that are s that the people that are supporting the project manager also ought to be encouraged not to just to keep their blinkers on, and work within their own discipline, and say, I've nothing to worry about, I work to the blue book, I work to the code of practice, I work to the British Standard. But they ought to be encouraged to look over the fence at at er Well I hope they do because you end up with the wrong bloody solution if you just go at it like that. You put the wrong bloody bridge in if you forget the implications on track or everything else. So what what they're actually saying is that here is a formal training that will make sure that everybody at the, who goes on this course, comes away with a measure of having achieved those skills because th the course itself is formed of two parts. Two days on the Health and Safety at Work Act, which we can probably do without, because if we can pass the exam before we go on the course then we don't need to do those first two days. The other three days are on this erm lateral thinking risk assessment type of erm Project safety project safety plans. Mm. And Cos we're already producing those. Mm. We are but we've never been formally trained in them. And Jim genuinely feels, oh and again that element is examinable. Then at the end of the day you've actually something to say, yes. This person has got these skills to carry out this. And that would sit quite well with our quality systems. True. So it depends on at what level we decide to train this down to. Mm. From the client We'd certainly be s Sorry. We don't s we don't see the a a vast number of our staff being trained in this way. At fifteen hundred pounds a time. From the client's point of view Regional Railways were quite adamant that erm if we didn't do it then they would find somebody who was prepared to. Provide that service. What about So my arguments? One of my arguments for doing it Come off it. Pull the other one. one of my arguments for Hang on. doing it Roger is that we sit here and we say to our clients, ah but you really ought to be coming to us because we're railway experts. Yeah. You shouldn't go to other consultants because they're not as good as us. They don't have the special skills and training that you need to carry out working within the railway environment. And then once some specialist railway training comes along, we're arguing that we don't need it. . Right. No. We're only arguing Can I we don't need it because w we we're confused A, as to how this suddenly gets Mm. er slung on us from another department. Er and B, that surely a lot of it is covered in our training already. That we're not saying, Yeah. you know, we shouldn't be training railway safety we're wondering You actually ? how this clashes with everything else that we've been doing. Yes. Well we'll not, we'll not know that until we've actually sent somebody on it, which is what we what Well could I just something? we agreed to do something like six months ago. Because you can't get the course. Well I've spoken to Keith and Kim from B-TEC about some of this and er things are not as clear-cut as people are perhaps making out. Right. I can understand some of the exclusivity it would give us by our undertaking Mm. this course. But it's a hell of a lot of money. It is. And are talking about I think more than just a few people erm therefore the s It's non it's non fee earning work. There's a loss of the work whilst they go on the course fifteen thousand That's that's quid and Mm. at the moment the only source it's come from is directed projects. Correct. Yes. It's not come from anywhere else it's not a group standard Yeah. directed and The only, the only thing is Terry that that the directed projects has done a bloody good selling exercise because he's convinced these people that everybody should do it. Well remember though but the problem is with project managers didn't have any Training at all. training. Yeah. True. That's where you started from. Can I just say that I I've not quite finished Trevor. The other thing is under the CONDAM regulations, the responsibility for arranging the right quality of staff in terms of providing resources, in terms of time and finance, lies with the client. Therefore if Regional Railways wants us to do it, I think we have, there is some merit in us going back to them and saying, yes, we'll do it. If it's Leeds North West project, we'll charge it to that project. No. Well I'm I'm sorry but that is what the CONDAM regulations say. That's like employing a bricklayer and then going down to Barnitts and buying his tools for him. I think that's absolutely ridiculous Hear hear. No. But I'm sorry but the CONDAM regulations lay the health and safety plans and risk assessment out in exactly that format. The client can't li s stand back and say, it's all up to you to do it. There's a acceptable. there's a lovely paragraph in Aiden er covering note to the submission for Leeds North West. And this paragraph's is something to the effect that your, here is the erm tt the estimate of our work and we're seeking authority. If other safety er implications or safety requirements er impinge on this project then these will be funded by me. Correct. And that's regulations say they must fund Right. them . Can I can I just focus your mind on two things gents? If you w u unfortunately we didn't look at the financial commentary as the first item. If we had done, you would see that s s still something like forty five percent of our work is for Regional Railways. Oh aye. You would see that something like thirty percent of our work is at Leeds North West electrification. From the meeting that m that Trevor and I had with Keith the other day, erm Keith is actually working in support of us to try and m maintain us working for them in the future. Against great adversity. Mm. The point I'm gon I'm I'm coming to is this, that we have with regard to Regional Railways work, forty five percent of our workload which I see is at extreme risk. Now there's no way I'm gonna talk to tha he they are our major client. It's extremely risky that we could lose all of that work over the next four months. In my humble opinion if we can find a formula round this table for satisfying them, and that's, I mean that's who we're trying to satisfy. They're the ones who are saying, Look. These courses are on o o on the go. We want your people to be trained in them. There's no way I'm gonna turn round to them and say, Get stuffed. I want to retain that work. For us to retain that work we are gonna have to bend over backwards to do what Regional Railways want. So I think what we should be doing, us at the management team here, is saying, look, we know we're gonna have trou we want to please the client. How do we please the client? And do we do it within the financial . How do you recover your money? constraints that we have? Well how do you recover your money? Can we just Well look at the money for a moment because if you look, when we come to look at the financial commentary, we will be going down the erm er what we spent our training budget on Mm. last year. A and perhaps instead of employing Mr last year er as we did last year to do management development, this year we could have er safety development as being Mm. the focus for our training . We spent a lot of money on MOSS training last year because it was necessary. We will be s spending more money on MOSS S say s training and more money Certainly. on CAD training. But why is it fifteen hundred pounds? Quite. Erm And how do we know Intercity aren't gonna come along and demand a different course? Roger th that that's one of the reasons Yeah. for me meeting with Jim was to say, yes, that's fine but if at the end of the day we have to train down to a certain level within our group, there's no way can we afford five man-days of lost fees and fifteen hundred pounds . Mm. How could we get it down? Could we have it in York? Could we have it non-residential? Could we have it We've got so many people could you come up here and do Mm. a three day training course. And we will sort out the health and safety elements with in-house training, and we'll run the erm er the examinations ourselves type of thing. And all those sort of things are available to us if we want to develop it. But what we've got to decide first is, whether we're gonna do it and if so at what level? If we were gonna say, right, this only is gonna apply to mega- projects, tt and therefore it would be appropriate for the project coordinator to be the person to sit down at the start of the job, when he's agreeing the remit with the client, when he's developing the erm tt er who's doing what within the functions. If it's appropriate for him to sit down there with the project manager, then we haven't got a problem. Because we will only have erm less than a dozen project coordinators at No. It's not it's not on that level. The project quality plan is produced by the project engineer looking after the job, and that is not the project coordinator. It's a much lower level? Er I might also say, on open access which is something that I was at a meeting for yesterday in London. Is that you you must give in our tender documents, we must tell the contractor what he has to allow for in his price. And that will be, attending P T S training courses and at and having medicals. Cos that allows him to the cost? And that fits Mm. quite well within Mm. CONDAM regulations. Now in some respects what I think should happen, is we should, yeah we should not be negative about going on the course, but in terms of the financial implications I'm very worried about that and I think there is a erm, there is some need for the client to say, that if he wants us to go on this course we're happy to go on it, but that he should look seriously at financing and he plus it should have been in the tender document. In thi in a normal contractual situation, if the client Yeah. turns round to you half way through the job and says by the way you must do this. It's a V O situation. Mm. Now Yeah. Right. I I'm not trying to be a I'm not trying to be obstructive I'm just trying to get No. No. the responsibility where it Terry. I I rests as a shared one it's not just ours. I I don't dispute anything that say there, but what I would suggest is that if we do this, if we actually train up, pay for a number of our staff to be trained, we have a unique selling point. Yeah. I couldn't agree more. And it down our vision aims doesn't it? It does indeed. It gives it gives it gives us a strength Well I over I mean let us let us let us Why have we changed our minds though? We said we said at the start of this that we did enough training. I don't think we do. Well how does this fit in to C stage? Well how do you know? How do you know? We the I R S E? How does it fit into that? This is what puzzles me. did Can I can I give you a scenario? say it would start ju just re recap Mm. We did say at the discussion, that we did a four and a half day or a five day construction site safety Yeah. course. We train our people in C S S Well that's construction safety isn't it? That's nothing to do with whether Yeah. or not w w we should be having a bridge or a I'm sorry because or or a er er a level crossing or a s a a erm a . But Trevor I thought the consensus at the start Mm. of this discussion was the fact that we had, and it was, certainly was the last time we talked about it because that's why we only sent one person on it. To find out to find out Well we haven't sent anybody yet as far as I know. I thought it was Steve been on it? No. Oh right. Well I thought we we had decided that unless there was any added benefit to it, we weren't actually gonna attend. There was no point in sending your staff. Yeah but we're talking round this. We are. Can I sug can I ask if But we're doing project safety now and it's working. the four the four people at this end of the table would be prepar five people at this end of the table would be available To talk to Jim . to talk to Jim on Monday er By all means. on Tuesday? Yeah. Yeah. By all means. Well I'm not here but I'll If he's in. Fourteenth? You see I I, can I just? I Mm. agree with that. I I would like as many of the front line people as possible to meet with Jim so that we can a a the objective of which will be for Jim to tell us what the content of his course is, so we can assess where whether there are gaps in our training. Two, to see whether we can knock down the price and whether we can get him to come up here in the same way as Doctor does and do it that way to reduce the costs. Erm and I think that's basically it isn't it? That's it. Er and I'm sure that h he's quite happy to do that that second item. Erm he does say in the course that residential is better because i it does tend to be a very intensive erm course. You're working up till midnight on a couple of days. They're not good courses. If we make it non-residential the money that we save on on on the residential bit we could perhaps say, right then we'll do that bit in four days. We'll we'll we'll do a potted health and safety ourselves. Er er and we'll run the other bit non-residential over four days Mm. perhaps finishing at six But o'clock or whatever. Right. So Roger, Jim, Terry, Trev, Norman and myself'll meet Jim on Well I'm not here so I'll have to send down So you're saying it's Tuesday afternoon Fourteenth? What time is it? at four. No. It's at four Fourteenth? It's at four. No. The fourth. Oh. The fourth. At what time? A about eleven o'clock. He's coming In my office. He's coming Here? Yes. Yes. He's coming from Edinburgh. Hugh and I have got a meeting at ten which will be clear by eleven. Erm h he's got a, he's coming down from Edinburgh and he wants to call in and see me about something and I don't know what because I've only spoken to his secretary. But I think that if we can grab him just for half and hour Great. and let him er e explain. You see gents what we've got to be aware of is, if Glasgow and Birmingham for example buy into this and we don't And they will. I think so. Well Birmingham certainly will cos it's the sort of thing they like doing. Where does that leave us? Because I I be under work. be under no illusions gentlemen that er Keith is under a lot of pressure to put his work to Birmingham and Glasgow, and not to York. Mm. But we know why they're not gonna do it don't they? It doesn't make financial sense. Yeah. But I mean Keith Keith is actually sticking his neck out on our behalf. Mm. Yes. I'm aware of that. And and as I said the work is at risk and and don't kid yourself it ain't. No. Because it is. Yeah. Ah. But Peter Peter Peter Mm. and and Yeah. and erm Richard are determined that the work will be done in-house by Regional Railways. Mm. Mm. if that happens we've got to market Intercity a lot harder than they are and take and take the work off Birmingham, that they're doing that they shouldn't be doing. Cos they're still doing a hell of a lot of our Yes. work. Yeah. We we've the subject. Yeah. The point I was making was that that we we need every We don't want to unique selling point we can to be able to convince c er our clients that they should come to us rather than somebody else. And if you actually remove a unique selling point and hand it over to one of your competitors that to me is not good business. No. And for the future i it is useful to have qualified staff so that whether they be technically qualified It's essential. it? academically Yeah. qualified. Safety I I I can qualified. I can believe they won't complement our I can't believe our site safety er Cos I can't see that they'll have the expertise that we have in our site construction safety courses. And I'm sure they'll have a different expertise. Another example you see Sorry Trevor. I've just chap, one of my chaps has just come back off a three days, confined spaces, responsible person course. Yeah. So it's I mean I've I've debriefed him and there is a heck of a lot more to confined spaces Yeah. than he ever thought. Yes. And Mm. indeed he he now is a tremendous asset to us. Yes. And yet and yet Aha so is he legally good enough for the whole group? Well he is that's why we We don't need everybody to go on that We've got and Steve . Granville and Steve . We've got three. Mm. We agreed that. You should have somebody in your office Mm. I think Roger. But actually the first part of it is just the same as the confined space Very rare. authorized . Very rare if Roger goes in. any of us to go into confined spaces. . No. Hugh's people go Not there Yeah. Wait a minute, you see that's the problem. Yeah . Yeah. the chap that I sent he thought he knew what a confined space was. He came back and he said, nearly everywhere we work we're working in confined spaces. Yeah. Places where we never thought were confined spaces. I should have my office bigger. But you're still working on it aren't you ? Yeah. Yeah. I'm working on it. All you need is an accident. Yeah. and then the law would tell you where you're going wrong. And that's the problem with safety isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. The traffic lights syndrome. Yeah. And the more qualified you are on safety the more prepared you are I think the only thing to bear in mind is that we a little bit careful w with the changing environment we're working in that it, with it only being pushed forward by direct projects if if nobody else wants it we could be wasting some of our money. I Yeah. Terry the way this came about is that one of our clients is saying he wants us to do it. Yeah. That that was how it's come about. I mean we have the Well ju but at the moment just for Leeds North West as far as I'm aware. No. No. He said for any project No. in the future. Any project. B but the fact the pro the safety strategy for Leeds North West is not yet written, is rather ironical. Mm. For the project's you know Mm. Okay. Tt right. Not issued anyway. So we'll see Jim and then we will decide on a strategy for Presume we we should also write to Peter and ask him if he's got any spare safety money to er Well our o our is three stage pron proje Yeah. process. We we see Jim , we decide amongst ourselves whether we have the need, and I think I mean I I believe we do anyhow. Er we evaluate the need and how many people want to go on it, we evaluate what it's gonna cost and then we see if we can get money through the the safety budget that director safety holds. Yes . And then away we go. Right . Mm. Good. Reasonable? Mm. C D G Scarborough conference update. Trevor again. We've fixed the dates for erm Scarborough er er as we'd previously er talked about. It's er You've forgotten haven't you? nineteenth, twentieth, twenty first of Correct. Yeah. Nineteenth, twentieth, Er we've fixed the hotel and Nola's got a N no I haven't. Ah. Well I forgot the name of it er the Nichol St Nicholas? Nicholas. Nicholas St Nicholas. St Nicholas it's got a massive It's Swimming pool has it? It's got a nice little swimming pool although evidently it looks really nice on the photograph because it looks like a big rectangular one. It's actually Three foot square? it's actually a triangular Clever. and and the photographer's just sort of chopped it up along the along the er hypotenuse, which I think is a bit sneaky really. ? No. No. No. I sent Rachel to Scarborough to er to look at all the accommodation to make sure of th that it was er suitable. wish you were here Yes. It's four-poster beds. It's been on Wish You Were Here. It's er There's a gym as well We've booked . We should have bou should have bought . Accommodation will be erm ? No? single or double rooms booked single occ occupancy in double rooms. Er all the But Mr Presupposes so it should keep him in order Erm the, there is an annex to the hotel, so some of us will be sleeping in the annex but taking all our meals in the, and it's just round the corner Mm. so there's there's really no problem there, no. It is ? Er and we will be we will be having dinner there on the Wednesday evening before we go on the dodgems. Good. Er and then full day erm Good. a full day programme on the Thursday and working up until erm mid-afternoon on the Friday. Er and Jane has sent us in some proposals, which erm she's s since modified and is now working on and she's calling in to see us for half a day in the near future to Just to firm up on final just to on on various bits and pieces. Mm. What we do need to know is er who is coming from each function. Yo you know the numbers that were allocated to you last time. C can we just r recap What? on those cos I . Alright. No. I I've got them written down. I'll I'll let you have them. If you would. Yeah. Thank you. Er we do need to know w we did I did actually a ask Lawrence , who is one of the two management staff reps, whether or not he was available, cos I know Lawrence as i as er a local councillor has a fairly busy diary. Erm we suggested Lawrence rather than Tony because he's younger and and Got a future with us. Aye. Tony did express an interest in going last time so we felt that Mm. Lawrence perhaps is younger and more That's fine. er so I invited Lawrence, but he was concerned about his workload, and felt that because of the staffing within the bridge office, it might not be convenient Mm. for Roger to release him. So I said that I would raise that a and er er What's he working on Rog? Oh he's off work and you see he has all the time off for councils and you know it isn't as if he's there fulltime. And er you know Right. more time off. Mm. Up to you Roger. Well I'd prefer him not to go but Right. you know it is di Mm. it's a very difficult decision to to take you know. I can go Bill can go but he can't. Erm I I I would like I would like a sta We're talking two managers aren't we? I would like a staff rep to be there and I think it should be a management staff rep. I mean we debated this at the last meeting didn't we? Yes. And we concluded that it was a bloody good idea. Mm. Erm and out of the two I mean there's no doubt in my mind, that Lawrence should be the one to go. Tony is as Trevor said is has has has got aspirations to leave if if the voluntary severance comes up again and the whole purpose of the exercise is to look to our future. I think it's one of the most important things that we're gonna do this year. And you know the objective for us is to see where we're going, to be able to encourage our staff to realize that as a, that we have a future. Er w which in turn is is intended to minimize the loss of staff over the next two years. Er a and for one guy to attend for two days, the guy might go off for for two days. Er if we could find a way of getting him there, I think it would be worthwhile. That's my opinion. Anybody disagree? It's not us who'll have to sit in front of the er client and explain why things are I understand that. back on er o on a project. Yeah. Well that's where we've got to prioritize isn't it? Rog knows best. I agree with what you say erm it's just unfortunate that it's Lawrence. Erm we're you know having enough trouble Mm. with his council work and everything and erm whether How many people have you got in the council in your office? At least two. Dave Dave Dave and Lawrence at the moment that's all but others with aspirations. But David's only part-time anyway isn't he? What at work? Oh at work. I mean the council. A a at work he he he's Why? Get fifty percent of Dave now, we only used to get like twenty five before Yeah. But you only pay him fifty percent of his salary. That's right. Yeah. Cos I mean get a good deal with Yeah. Mm. you know we don't get a good deal with Dave because we're paying hundred percent overheads on the seat he's sitting Yes. in and that sort of thing. I'll see what we can do. Erm I'll tell you what R I mean Roger I'll leave it entirely with you. If if if you can't afford it so be it. It was a good it was a good thought and I mean I I personally We'll see if there are ways round it See. Yeah. it by slaving away Yeah. with . I mean if you can't that's that's another option isn't it? If he if you would Yeah. be prepared to erm To work on a Sa on a Saturday say. Yes. Yeah. Right. I'll see what we can do about that. Okay. Erm Right. So that that looks as though it's going well. I was. Are you gonna get an agenda out for it Trevor before Oh yes. Yes. Erm Good. well I'm not but Jane'll Jane will be giving us erm Got two Rs a package to sort of set out what we're gonna do and er how we're gonna achieve it. Bloody hell. I just don't see them as being Yeah. I I think it's we would spending quite a lot of money with her and er she's doing a lot of preparation work. I mean w Yeah. Yeah. If if that's what people think it's about then then we haven't got across haven't we? No. Erm Yes. How do we get across to the staff the purpose of this exercise? Cos the purpose of the exercise is for us to see how far we've come, but the most important purpose of the exercise is to determine where we wanna go. I need to receive a staff Well release er a press release w w before we go. W w The press release th the the letter I sent to erm Chris Yeah. or or to Peter to pass on to Chris didn't that sum it up Yes it did. reasonably well? I thought distributed Can we? Can we team brief? team brief I know we I know we team briefed last time round but su Did we? That that we were gonna have this. told Have you got my letter ? . But but I Yes. But what worries me my friend is that that erm I have been talking to one or two members of s staff at a fairly low level over the last week. And they haven't the faintest idea what we're doing. So the team briefing was certainly ineffective. Have a look and see if that sums it up. I can't believe it. No. Seriously. The the staff don't know what we're up to. Er a a and the Although we couldn't tell them that we're trying to achieve because we haven't we haven't discussed Right. that yet. We know we're looking Mm. at how we're to go forward in the future an and improve the service Mm. to the client. It was a sim mine was a simple team brief I don't know Mm. I I I spoke to two two people from two different organizations. Two people who are planning to leave our organization, and the purpose of talking to them was to say, oh, what's the problem? Why are you wanting to leave? Er and in both cases it was er a feeling of insecurity, and that they felt they would be more secure going to a different part of the organization. Great I'm And and and quite honestly the parts of the organization they were going to I don't perceive as being any more secure. There's no more security anywhere at the moment is there? I mean there's none. No. So er the whole purpose of our exercise was to give the staff a better feeling of security. Mm. And and a and if you like an affirmation that they've got a future with us. So that we could keep the bloody team together over the next few years. It's gonna be even more difficult another three or four posts I believe are now appointed with Aiden that will create vacancies. Alan 's gone. was a project manager. Right. So I I'm gonna suggest that we we re-team brief it this time round What with that letter or something similar? Som yeah. We can use that as the basis for it. Mm. these people can't say then w what our, that they don't know what our intentions are. No. That's right. What we're aiming to achieve and Yeah. how we're gonna do it. Yeah. Good. What might be useful Trev is, Jane put together this proposal, Yeah. an and inside that proposal were objectives. Erm Which yes. and if we get a photoc I've changed our Yes but she's, yeah. You you scribbled on That's right on her on the copy of that. on that copy. Yeah. We haven't had time to look at that either have we? No. No. Obviously don't, a bit naughty if you've agreed objectives and we haven't seen them. copies still got. Pardon? If you want to use the original if you'd Oh I've feel happier I've still got it. Yes. But bef before we start issuing that we ought to get the members of this this group here to agree what the objectives are. If if we're gonna accept those Mm. Right. before the conference. Er? I thought we did that last time. I thought we'd done that, because that that was the remit that we agreed at this table round this table. I'll tell you what they are anyway. And then we we actually put those to to Jane , Hugh, Jim, myself. And she went away and produced that document after we'd given her the brief. They they're summarized here and what I'll do is we'll get photocopies off these before team brief. To recognize the successes achieved by the group over the last two to three years. To understand the future we face, in terms of who our customers will be, suppliers and competitors. To agree what the overall aspirations of the group are, what what is our current vision and values for future. To identify current and potential customers explore their needs and expectations now and in the future. To agree key business developments. Where do we need to improve our competitive edge. What would be our business strategy, our project development and market development. Er for us to identify current problems and improvement opportunities, so that we can deliver our product and services . And the one that I added in was to identify the options available to the group regarding future ownership. Er to work on the key issues which are common to all options for the future, er such that th we can put ourselves in the best position to secure future business success . I think those are broad enough headings such that To cover anything none of us are likely to fall out about it. The whole idea of this is to go in there with an ope with a with a a a clean canvas and see what we're What comes out. producing. But erm o one of the things that I asked Jane to look at was we want, it's quite an expensive operation is this just in our salaries and the loss of fees from us from twenty four people We don't get and any fees usually. No. But So that's not too bad. Okay. Ou well our salaries then. Yes. Certainly, that's a lot of brass. And and what I wanted was a means of identifying whether we'd achieved any anything over the two days. And and that was one of the prime things that I asked That's gonna be tricky. Jane to do. Just to say, look, Mm. how do we measure i whether the two days have been successful? And er she's working on that. So it had to have a structure. So shall I get copies of that? Mm. And and we can team Yeah. brief that. ? Not now. This afternoon. Right. Right. Anyway I think we've covered that fairly comprehensively. Meeting with Regional Railways, future services and clients' reports. Right. Erm David, Trevor and I met Keith , Roy and? Mark . Mark , a couple of days ago. Who are the other two people? Mark's a contractor Contract. and Roy's the planning. Regional Railways. Contracts clerk or something isn't he? Yeah. He, yeah. He's he's what Duncan is. Was. Yeah. Was. Yeah. Mm. Yeah. Okay. The meeting was at their request and what they wanted to do was discuss with us, how we should report er financial data to them in the future Mm. because they are not, not only us but all A S U s that are working for Regional Railways. They did make the point that we're better than most of their er Mm. So we're a bit suppliers. ahead in fact we're ahead of them. And they are they are very grateful for the service that we provide, which comes about because of our use of DOPACS and the quality systems that we're introducing. And it will they made it quite clear that we are way ahead particularly of people like the S and T Mm. but also of the other CEDGs. Now then. What came out of it was erm a number of things. We've talked about the project safety training that was one thing that came out of it. But the main thing that came out of it is that they need from us er the client reports. And they're not getting them at the moment. Now they want from us a prediction of the fee expenditure that they will incur on a period by period basis, and we're not sure how we can provide that. And Trevor's gon Where are we up to? To look at er tutorial programme for next year. I'm sorry if I'm a bit switched off I don't what you've been doing ! Qui qui er I actually do feel quite drained, fairly Yeah, I must admit I do. length session with the old er er tax there and somebody got quite heated and whatever but you know, got there. Anyway We heard. Yeah? Yeah we did yeah. Yes we've been told. Were you inside here were you? We could hear it from outside . Oh you could hear it? Occasionally yeah. Oh ! Really? So Ah, there was some disagreement it wasn't that bad. Right Expect I'll hear tutorial programme, we talked last, last term er and I said that I'd like to as soon as possible put up a complete programme of titles, it would be nice if we could have a little er what am I supposed to call them? Programme of study outline to alongside it a a as all part of the erm er process of of of upping the level of er credibility if you like, of the tutorial programme. So, really I don't know what's the best way to to to to start, just ask you give a brief resume of where you're at, if you've done if you've got it in hand, if you haven't got it hand erm and then perhaps when we've done that we might er look at possible resources and stuff get off now. Does that seem a reasonable way forward? Can I Yeah, Sandra? Well can I point first though? Yeah. Reviews, targeted reviews are they on the firing line or not? I don't know, I never asked them I'm sorry! Because Do you want me to go and ask them? Yeah cos if you could clarify that point it might or tell the pressure we're under. I'm I I couldn't, I know I had a document and I said to you that we were . I read it and we were out. Yeah. But then Don't know how he does that. But English weren't But Are yo so just Just said yesterday didn't he? Yeah,co well if he clarifies it then we know where we are. That means I get done twice! And you need done as far as I'm concerned ! When is it, the end of September ? Yeah but they're the week before. as if we haven't got enough on our plate! The thing Mm. that is stupid Terry is key stage four! It is an ordinary form . key stage four , three weeks into key stage four! I'm looking for that er , you didn't ge you didn't find that planner did you? What? One of those planner things that Rod was talking, I couldn't find mine. I haven't got one. I've got , I've got a I looked. blank one. No. I've never had one of them. Well that wa I got a blank one. What are those Marian, you don't get one of those last time? I got one of these. Yeah. Start planning, well you got those are the weeks of the year Mhm. so you can actually write in, you know the at Oh! half term, summer term Oh I see sorry! Half term, Christmas term Oh! Is it half terms? My well, I've got technology and all sorts tha on there. Do you want another one Mil? Aye, cos I've . Er, well I didn't have much . I'll find it when I get back to school. Did you, got a copy of this Dave? Yes, right. It's right behind us. Is it A three. It won't do that. It'll only do A four. You want me to do two you won't copy that very well but I'll give it a go. It's just if Rod wanted to write notes this is the last blank one I've got. Well I can only A four. Have you got a blank on there that's not written on? Yes. Okay, if he needs a blank one you can give him yours. Yes. And I'll keep this master Yeah , mm. and we'll do it Okay. it's just, I didn't want to use my last one up. As I say, that's my last one as well. Well i if we ke If you keep that. Right, so he, well he might not need one If he needs it. if I can give him that one. That was exciting wasn't it! Let's get you organised! Well can I just say in in the interim What on earth do you take Anthony, that's what I want to know! Just . Oh I can see your ! I get awfully excited when you start a conversation cos I Right. say, and then you don't say a word! a nice person, I didn't know this, I found it in resources, but this, I sent for this book and I don't, Rod's referred to it I think and is now this bit. that's the, this is this years! Oh! Oh God ! Er, I don't know what, and I think he,we he sent for that book, I sent for this and its different issues which you can possibly used in erm P S D se er, etcetera and there's a number which I feel work across the years rather than just you know, sort of one year book for example there's a a unit there Terry and Mhm. that it's on changing schools, hope and fears Mm. and anything that needs to be photocopied you've got er a teacher resource it's about feeling nervous, you know, what can you do? And I'm I'm sure my lot would like it. and there's a thing here you know about read about it but it's erm these are these Just a minute. what to do if erm you know, you're arriving at your first day or things like that. Mhm. Especially, is er economics no No. it's not. it's not a different Erm one. Get bollocked by the year tutor! There's one on homework Yeah. there's one for er bullying Mhm. understanding industry er And . rights and responsibilities, air pollution here you can you develop and Yeah. and pro , reviewing your progress which I think's good. But there was I've got a what do you me call on that roo , er an assembly on why we, why do we have rules. Yeah, I think I have as well. I mean, I'm Yeah. trying to think of what new schools and what making a new start, this er, for your file Mhm. waste recycling er er, I can't remember where I read, I read it through somewhere it was I felt quite good. I yo how green I mean Homework. isn't that what My you do in year nine isn't it? Although they'll be doing that last. Small kind of Particularly in conjunction use ten and eleven. Don't know, and I want for as well for options cos I want to get everything done, I already forewarned them last time Would er that I want everything prepared before I go. It's just that I have arranged to meet him tonight sometime to sort out a few things for me would of made a lot more sense if he'd been here! Who? Well Rod. Mm. Particularly the latter half Oh! of year nine and all of Yeah. year ten and eleven. Yep. We work in conjunction . Right there there's a there's an interesting sheet there, what should I do? I mean that's the one example about arriving at a new school. Mm. What should I do if I arrive late and miss registration ? Mm. What should I do if I fall down and cut myself during break? If I leave my packed lunch Yes. at home and I have haven't any money? Lose something ? I'll definitely use that Get a headache ? in getting to know Year seven new year seven Oh yeah for year seven Aha. Definitely. it's good, yeah! What should I do if I leave school at eleven thirty because I've got a dental appointment? Erm I need to phone home because I have stay late? My bike's tampered with? I missed the bus? Do you think I break a window ? Mhm. Is there really? Well no, what do I do about if I get given a detention? Aha. Any you know the, and all these things are sort of if . And that's in the teacher's book? That's the so , in their copy book. Oh brilliant! And but to cover a a number of issues that we deal with in what, you know Yeah. so I'm just making it Is this supposed to be ? available. What? This was supposed to be in here? No. Oh! We might get somewhere. Okay, I I was just tha while you were chatting to boss these books came and they have a a number of different things which you know, from changing schools Did you send away for them then Sandra or did they Yeah, sections er, Longmans were in and they had them. Oh Longmans were in were they ? I Who was in Longmans? Longmans. Oh! Who they are? I haven't heard of them! I mean, there's a thing that might be very prevalent with bullying, you know why do people get bullied Yeah. how do you feel about it? And they're all very pupil friendly. So there's wa one And because we're doing this do we get them discount? Okay. Erm I you know da I wasn't viewing your progress one, I had ta using that one Yeah. just but play safe you know, fireworks, be safe Mm. not sorry! What is safety? Pocket one. So it's there we've photocopied both things. You see there's a general principle there is quite a lot of information in that cupboard that I keep saying's there, have a look and as we get stuff Oh yeah, I know what you mean. hand it out. I mean how much is that set? We we we've got Sorry, I'm just I didn't do that, it just You come out from there Anne's looking for you! I was looking for the Mr because I remembered I said I would be here in this session and I'd forgotten. By the bar. He's he's gone in the bar just for Couldn't help but er It's the single place, I di I didn't see him Yeah, next door. Yeah. Oh! I I It's er the act the the whole se , the teacher's book is seven forty five no, the resource book seven twenty five, and the teacher's fesh er, the book itself is four ninety five. So Well I mean we've got money, haven't spent any money yet. Well you'd only need four teacher's packs oh and there'd be five, one for the tutor and er, four teachers so you could, you know I mean da in fact, do people wanna have a quick look and se a and give me a Mm mm. over the next day and a bit, yeah go for it, get it! We've got the money. Mm. I mean, it's one of the things I wanna include in our discussion if we get round to it about having more resources available. yeah. But I've just been talking to the head there and he said you know that you know the tor tutorial programme, Mrs started it all erm Miss did she? Ah! six years ago, seven years ago and you know it's moved on from there and I made the point, yes it was started in the point a at the level of, there's a file it's got information, get on with it! Get on with it! We're passed that now we're trying to give people more direction, get them involved er this is the first year we've able to do it in a sense, properly cos it's been the first year, with all due respect to all the work you've done in the past, we've got five year tutors. Mm. Right. Er so, anyway resources, that's part of it, have a look at it, Sandra, if you pa if you pass it onto each other and then just say that I think that's worth getting cos we do have the money now er to to start and look at things like that. I've just asked him about the collaborative review the focus is apparently on national curriculum so that means maths, English and , but they want to look ge more general issues and because they're in on a Wens Tuesday and a Wednesday he said that they would go in a look at, three of them would go in a look at taught tutorial lessons they will want to talk to me about the tutorial programme I would hope that that would involve somebody else cos I've got the bit of the fence that I sit on and ask one or two of you to give your opinion if, if you're available. So they would actually be in a lesson with tutors we would nominate who you'd want them to go in with so I'm not saying do it now you've all got your programmes I assume, sorted for the first half term anyway an erm, pretty well tied up, should be erm so really it's down to saying who they're gonna go in with er When is the collaborative review? Review. Was it not the third Wednesday? I think it's at the week. We are being seen in Science, twenty ninth and thirtieth. Oh that's a Tuesday and Wednesday the next one. isn't it? So That fourth week. Is that the fourth week? Yep. Yeah. So it's this then. That's the thirtieth of September. I by then. I'm just giving you a spread sheet and this blank page and Oh bless you, thanks! give you a did you give him a blank page? No, I said if he needed it! If he need, right got one. He might not need it! Cos we've changed that very much didn't we? Well we started working in this one that I've got here. Okay, so you sort of nine, ten, eleven cos we had fun and games with Do you want me to come round there so you can read this sheet as well? No it doesn't matter you lot can keep me right. Okay. You lot, that sounds awful! You lot ! was organised. Right. But can you remember what you wrote down on yours? I ca I ca I can't find mine, I found these papers and I can't find what I've written in mine. Well first block, environmental awareness. That was the first seven weeks. Yeah. Then there's a blank. Then there's a blank for weeks eight to thirteen. Mhm. Then week fourteen to nineteen was options Curriculum choice careers options. involveme , involvement of careers officers. That was next term. As ja , that Yes. no the er it's the la Yes, that's the last week of Christmas term and then the next week's er then the twe No , I didn't have it before Christmas. I've got January the fourth, in Aha. fifteen to twenty one on mine. Mhm. Fifteen, and so the ju what? Fifteen to twenty one? I've got fifteen to twenty one on my options curriculum choice, careers officer, Ian . Oh okay,fifte , I'll go with that. I'm not gonna ar , I mean that's just what I've got down. Oh that's er er involvement career's officers Sorry! Does that have nothing else after that? And anything, then national testing I've got down the twenty four er, week thirty two to week thirty seven. What? National testing SATS. National curriculum reporting, test er, SATS and national curriculum reporting Oh, gonna say something ! and parent's evening is a that's all pulling together and tha , that's it. Anyone want a Mintoe sweet? Please. No. Okay? I'll find it Is that all? to er tomor Mm. er Monday when I get back, I can't find it at the moment. So there's not a lot of point if I say well can you tell me what you're doing? Aha. No because I had a meeting yesterday with the kid, with the kids! Freudian slip there ! And er I had asked there was anything you know, they would be interested in and they all agreed that they wanted to start with banking, and wha , see what Sandra had done last er ta last year with a group that they thought was very good getting them to be aware Yeah that sounds . Er , finding chance doing a budget erm er er er was it Different types like loan services oh it was ah now even a resource pack that Sandra's just got recently and it's rather good, I rather liked it. You'd better! I don't think though, this might, it's a very ones they're just like building society. Right. More into budgeting, the video etcetera. Well, the thing is what's happening, I thought we might spend some time on if wanted, what I wanted to do was to be sure in my own mind that by the second week I could put up a master sheet with all the headings of what you were doing, that's gotta be done. Of what we're doing now. Right. Yeah. Right? So you've gotta get your fingers out if you haven't done it and get it organised! Aha. That's number one. That's not to say it's innumerable Mhm. because if something happens, I think it's important for tutorial programme it can respond to what's happening Mhm. and if something happens that we feel is important and so one of your form tutors has something that they're committed to and you wanna bring that in that's fine. Mm. But you do have to look at looking at you know, as I've said across the five years. So at the start of the second week I will want to put a master sheet up with all the headings on Mhm. with what you're doing. And I was just gonna say to you for my benefit We can tear that Yeah. you've been stuck up against them. For my benefit would you just like to sort of give me a quick rattle through as as as to what you intend to do. Right,i is that fair? Yep. Do we start? Well I'm Top up bottom down bottom Well top down. both really. Go on then David. Mine's a short list. Well obviously week one is just informal, sorting out any problems with time tables changing the records etcetera we agreed on that. Mm. I've then got rolling I A P's with Rob and whoever it is that got to help us with individual action planning Right. for two weeks switching over after two weeks and repeat the same process, at the same time the other two groups will be doing personal statements. Right. I've yet to soc totally confirm the number of weeks Mrs wants during the first two sessions that's up to week fourteen when she wants exactly to do the aids. Right. Again, which will be exactly the same as I A P two classes in doing the age whilst the other class is not, there they'll be doing personal statements Mhm. except for the form teachers with me helping them as well and Uncle Don Right. for the computer etcetera. And you'll make sure Dave's in the picture about Mm. personal statements and what you did to build on your experience etcetera, etcetera, etcetera etcetera. Mm. We That's the sad thing because we're not in the same office any more. Makes no odds. Mm. Oh a million miles away! I know! You can use my desk. I tell you what, we'll get that in same as on what we've got. Exactly ! Should of Shut up! put Vil in the corner! Mm. Where your desk is. I can just shout through the wall! They could of just shouted through! And the cracks would have appeared! Go on Dave, sorry! Twelve , thirteen and fourteen are something I'm not very aut fait with as regards tutors I'm not anyway is the interim report that goes out after Mm. they've done their mocks. I Milly and I will sort you out on that. Weeks fifteen to twenty one is subject specific and all the details that have to come in and make up a record of achievement. Pardon, what makes those Dave? Fifteen to twenty one. I've got down here I A P review. Well I haven't a we haven't yet have I! Oh sorry. You're gonna get a smack round the ear in a minute you really are ! Just bear with me a moment we can stay the same as we on subject specifics at the moment, we don't have to change that, I'm just trying to think in the light of national curriculum and what's happening No. we don't have to change anything yet. No, that stays the Cos we had a same. there was a big discussion about the standard report, it won't cover five years and I said it doesn't have to cover five years, it never has done it's only covered four cos we what we do in year eleven is different anyway. That's okay, just Right. bear with me. Obviously completing joint statements booking in time to go on the computers to get them typed up nicely Mhm. again, with myself perhaps Milvia if I need her, and obviously Uncle Don cos he's the the attack person. Weeks twenty and twenty one we do the summative documents for the I A P Sandra? Twenty, twenty one? Yes has to be finished there. The then that leaves me just basically five weeks or four weeks to tie up everything and get ready for the record of achievement obviously Where's your curriculum statements? But I've said the But they're ongoing you don't have to worry about they're ongoing all the time. tutorial do you? That's subject specific. No. No! Have I said I've said those would come in from the departments. You mean the sheet that has all the subjects? Mm. Right. Well I've got that written down as the beginning of what goes in but e , I don't actually do those the departments do them. No. No! No! Subject specific, curriculum statement is a summation of all the courses they're doing. You need that in January. That can actually be done , that can be done in two weeks. Yeah, it's very simple. As long as all the subjects have the maths held us up for ages, and the science for ages! What? Not being able to decide where the Mm. Every course What every course is numbered Yes I know. and the curriculum statement, all the kids do is on a sheet put the number of the courses Mm. they're following so that needs updating and I'll, I'll go through that with you. That needs updating and then they just indicate the number I've studies on. and get the sheet printed out that has all their courses on it. And it . And it goes in front. That's not a problem. There's no problem! . I I know! But i i it's yo you can't do it this term because maths is never ready it always has to be done erm next term. So you need to find, you can, I actually did it with Paul 's class in one week! Yeah. I just sat there, got them all out one at a time and did the whole damn lot! But some people it took three weeks to do I don't know how the hell it did that, and I didn't even know I had to keep checking the only one I had to keep checking was Dick's. Ah well. I ended up doing Dick's. And the only thing I need to ask you about is that bloody great, bloody great memo, I've said it so I'll say it again it's pinned up in my old tutor's room what do you want me to put down on the document for the record of achievement on attendance? Now what do we actually want to put down? Oh aye that's new isn't it? Right, I think what we've You've got a frown Sandra, on the notice board above the fridge it says this is to be included in next years record of achievement which I presume will have to go into yours as well after my year It's on , it's on Dave's. there has to be something said about attendance. It can't be just figures it has to be some sort of er summation doesn't it as well or not? Well I would pe , I would pe prefer what I've got a record of is is percentage. written. Mhm. Well you can't just put numbers down can you? Well let's have a percentage. It's used as the criteria for S M B! Then the question It's a big, ruddy big long sheet! Well yeah, but that's just it what am I supposed to put on? Exactly, so it has to be written, some sort of written The only way you can do it at any particular point that's the trouble. That's a form tutor's again isn't it? Is it? As I da da , as Dave says as an overall percentage or to do it as we always do as a, as a termly figure. Alright? already have for every child in year ten Smack him! their percentages for the first three terms all written down. Aha. Because as far as I'm concerned that is the best way er that's how I do it for S M B, that's the criteria for that certificate that they get. I'm doing that as well. Mm. Sandra? Can I just Got any objection? Attendance can I just erm ask is it er possible attendance less unexplained absence or is it actual attendance plus explained absences for attendance? Well Attendance it is. Isn't it? You haven't got anything Attendance. positive and you can't forget about the te negatives either No attendance. but it's an overall what are the con it it's with some schools are putting in Justifiable. are putting in they have high attendance rates because they're including explained absences you know, as justified you know, and putting them with the actual attendance Well yeah. figures. Primary schools are doing that. They are, they're doing that! So what Right. do they mean? I don't know. We need to Sue to get that clarified. Well I'll tell you what that's gonna be an awful job if it is! Well That could be a horrendous It's ju job! You see my years so we're starting from scratch. my attitude is if you're not in school for whatever the reason you're absent! I see no objection But it to putting down I thought hospitalised for six Yes! months or something. That does, seems reasonable. But I'm not I'm not in the frame of mind to be saying this kid was off for a week with flu then and was off Mm. for a week with Oh no! No way! No. But what I'm saying is some schools they might be here seventy five days out of a hundred but for twenty of those Does this make a difference? She's talking with a sweet in her mouth! On one of those tapes. Longmans. the quality of sou , have you listened? No I haven't, I Oh haven't listened to it. you listen afterwards, it's great! continue when you look at the waste, a big bowl of waste and a couple of nuts, never mind. I think we can all learn a thing or too from that oh er that sounded nice that that sounds even better, oh I've cracked it right down the bloody middle don't swear, ooh you're doing well, if I get some of these bits, if I get the whole ones and the big pieces they can go on the top and that there are mum there's another big piece coming for ya the little bits I shall crush there's another big piece here, well, no little well greasy these are greasy? well nuts are there oily aren't they? right I've got to crush these in with this stuff what you doing with these here? leave them there I'm gonna use them for the top huh, ain't gonna have many on the top at this rate are we?oh lovely got another one for the top, cracker no I don't want a Christmas cracker I think that's a full one that is now then now how did I do it?not like that obviously oh that's it, I'm getting a fifty percent success rate of whole ones to small ones here oh that'll be good and this is another you not got a driving lesson this week then? no I've two the week after did he teach you what did he teach you? mirrors last week yeah, we go out, are you, if you, oh you bugger, I had four in the row now, beauties. go out what? if we go driving, I'll, I'll show you all the manoeuvres I can do, which is all of them so what's left? pol polish up on the mirrors and get ready for a mock test oh right do you think Richard's a good driver? I don't know, yeah, but, I don't think he's bad but, don't forget even when you've passed your test, your test you're still learning, you still make mistakes and still do things wrong I mean I do even now it's not what you do wrong it's how you get out of it, isn't it? mm as long as you can get out of it. you'll be quite pleased with this cos I'm getting some really good big bits out now right I'll, last week I was in the surgery one day to help Sue and she had ow to do an E C G on this man, well I hadn't done one for quite a while and I'd forgot really, not forgot what to do but I'm not very familiar with the E C G machines because it's a new electronic machine and its what's one of them an E C G? an electro cardiograph, it's a tracing of the electrical il impulses from the heart given off by the heart and this chap came in he'd never had one before and he was nervous anyway, so I'm trying to put him at his ease and I, I put, you have to put like a rubber band round their arms and legs and attach erm electrodes to them, you don't feel anything, you're only measuring the electrical impulses given off by the heart I'm, get this so I've got him all wound, all er geared up for this E C G and failed it I hadn't switched the machine on you wally and I was er, I try and switch the machine on it wouldn't come on, I thought what's going on here, so I said to Sue, can't switch the machine on Sue what's going on here?, anyway, apparently the power supply to the machine was a bit dicky, the er, er what? do you call that frizzle? no, that's a bad one, the er power supply to the machine, the lead it was, there was a break in the circuit and it kept going on and off, so actually I was switching it on right, it just wasn't coming on, so she says oh use it by the battery cos its battery as well as electric where's my cup of coffee? alright just shut up a minute, I'm talking to ya, so she said afterwards oh I says that was good weren't it couldn't even switch the machine on and she said it doesn't matter does it, she said it's not what happens its the way you deal with it, and I made a joke of it and I said to him oh this is good in't it? relax you're in safe hands I can't even switch the machine on, but anyway I did it in the end and he was alright, and he said thank you very much, that was, you were very good, you were very kind, cos it is frightening and one thing I said to him don't hold your breath, because people think when their having an E C G they've gotta hold their breath for some reason, just lie there take a deep breath and don't breathe again but you've never had one so you wouldn't no, I'm just going to mix this up they're coming out better now oh good oh that's got two in it see them and I got them both out whole an all used to, sometimes get double yoke eggs why you mean used to? I've not seen a double yoke egg for a long, long time, I don't know why, but sometimes you used to get a box of six and nearly all of them would be double yoke for some reason, don't ask me why, I don't know, where's your cup?, did you bring it in? no, I shall go and fetch it yes I I must have brought it in which one did you have? erm what's it there? yes, the red one, the red one which I've put it I think I've put it in the dishwasher well it makes it look, well it looks like the er paints fading off it I know it was like that when we had it, well all these mugs that you get from the petrol station are all seconds any way are they? yeah they're all the, they must sell them, the perfect ones and the second ones they sort of er petrol station cos they've all got slight faults on them. cor that's a big 'un, looks grand getting warm in here isn't it? I know oh they're good leave them I shall sort them out in a moment is that all the w all the erm almonds out of both packs? yeah oh excellent, oh that's fine bloody well hope so too oh another manky one I like that advertisement on the television this woman in America ah with the walnuts and she does that that cracks the walnuts in her hand I'd like to see somebody do that she does it on er, the, the inside of her elbow joint that's it and over to you, crunch, I don't know how she does it, got muscles like Samson she doesn't say she's Miss United States body builder nineteen ninety one no erm blackcurrant or apricot? blackcurrant blackcurrant I love these jars with the fruity lids don't you?, good aren't they? mm, mm my favourites god, right blackcurrant jam, what's the time, it's five to one ten to that clock's a bit fast then plenty of jam, don't like to skimp, haven't seen grandma, haven't heard from grandma today no, it's er minor catastrophe isn't it?oh damn I think that should have been Plymouth, I thought Plymouth were high on the league, they're not, they're near bottom yeah I know, but they haven't lost a home match for seven months for oh didn't know that seven, seven or eight weeks oh they're on a winning er they've won the last six home matches Plymouth have? yeah oh at least they've broke that run haven't they? haven't, Leicester never do well when they're at, if they go away, if they play away, if they go right down South or if they go right up North they'll get beaten every time why's that then? I don't know think because of the travelling I don't know, they always get beaten seriously by Newcastle, Middlesbrough, Sunderland what matches have they got left?, are they in with a chance of promotion? yes, I should think so have they got hard matches left or I don't know, there's still got a long way to go though well, I was disappointed when it showed the league table they weren't even in the top six, but they're seventh, huh but there's two, two teams above them have played one more game than them, but then there's probably two above them that have played one less that's right so they would go up to fifth mm but there's only sort of five points that divides all the top seven yeah I know and like the first division there's well even bigger leaders ain't there? well yeah just the match before, the Saturday before New Year, there's one point covering the top six mm. and if Leicester had beaten I forgot who it was, whoever they drew against, they would have been third. What makes it, what makes them improve so, the team makes it the same doesn't it? confidence mm and when you start winning you, it boosts your that's what I mean confidence right let's have a look at this banana chocolate thing don't know what's that gonna be like, I've never made that before. Could be roast potatoes this is sounding great this is, I'm, every time I crack a nut I hurt, hurt me hand, these last three won't crack well you've done very well I, I could never crack any of them, so, huh I'll get out all the whole ones it don't matter I'm gonna chop 'em up anyway no well I'm gonna do it any way want to slice want have you read the paper today? no you haven't didn't no I didn't get up till twelve of course you haven't, what was I going to say, the er, that Marquis of Blandford is it? Marquis of Blandford, speeding and all the other yeah, his wife posed in a sexy picture in her underwear yeah it's Rebecca stockings and suspender belt and the Marquis of Blandford's father has called her a, a slutty little something or other oh which is quite rich coming from him, considering his son's been in prison I don't think yeah here are, I shall go and just get the paper. right, thank you, very well done Oh not Catherine bleeding Zeta Jones again I don't even think she's nice Some clothes on her makes her look like a right podgy country maiden don't it? you thought of the classics you do, podgy country maiden well she does, she's got a fat face nice I don't, well I definitely don't think she's that nice oh I see what you mean Leicester are seventh mm oh they came from two nil down as well I know, I know they did, one was an own goal and the other one was er but then if you read the report of the match it said they could have won by more than that, they did all playing they were just unlucky, but he's pleased with the result yeah it's not bad now, then got to chop these nuts up now best thing to do when you see the football results is to look at who their playing next week, and then you can get a fair idea of who's gonna do what yeah, who they playing next week then? Swindon at home and Swindon are right er below them by one by one no the place below them but er they're playing at home yeah so that's an advantage int it? Blackburn are away to Portsmouth who are both above Leicester, Southend, Southend, Southend should beat Bristol City Camb Cambridge Middlesbrough have got Millwall at ho away, well yeah don't know oh Sunderland did well mm beat Millwall six two huh it was only one one at half time good lord five in the second half, bloody hell three goals in three minutes, fifty five, fifty seven, fifty eight Don Goodman this bloke got a hat-trick, he got it within fifteen minutes oh dear Ian St. John holds the wor holds the Scottish record for the fastest hat-trick why what did he do? he got three goals in two minutes good lord for Motherwell this paper is only interested in two sports and that is football, cricket see that pigeon mm from Ann isn't it probably? mm, she does, no she's got doves, keeps doves and animals and birds like that doesn't she? yeah a bit strange I suppose got loads of doves yeah I know, dunno why she wants to keep all them I'm sure mm Rory still going out with his girl friend? I don't think, I don't know, I think he might be, I couldn't tell you though no not so easy as you think getting jobs mm this is where the schools I think are partly to blame, okay, yes they encourage you to do exams which is good but they don't tell you that you're gonna have difficulty getting a job even if you get A levels and all that, they sort of say oh yeah you, you stand a better chance of getting a job, but, its still, its still difficult. Sue and I go to this cafe, I told you at Newtown didn't I? Sue and who? Sue and I oh yeah, and there's just a little tea room and they sell, lunches at dinner time and teas in the afternoon, right opposite Bradgate's Park oh that one yeah and the girls that serve in there, there's three girls that serve in there, one works in the kitchen actually helping with the food, but the other two serve at the tables, they've all got A levels but they can't get jobs mm, oh dear look at this it looks pretty good doesn't it? yeah it does, not too bad, I don't think they'll be enough nuts to tell you the truth now I've got to make this top for this banana and chocolate cake what's the topping? chocolate something or other you want to cut a piece off and let me see what it's like oh when I've finished doing this I might Has Matthew decided what he's going to do? has he applied for university? yeah he's got an appl an offer what university or college? er Bristol Poly oh right, what's he want to do? marketing, he's been offered two D's mm, yes, that's alright isn't it, he should do that shouldn't he? is he quite bright? should do it and if he doesn't I'd be, I'd be surprised marketing what's he want to do then? I don't know, I couldn't tell you I really don't know well what do you want to do? me? mm I'm not sure, I don't know mm any ideas have you got about a job you'd like to do? television something like that oh yes but that's gonna be very difficult Martin no research in of that job like that mm with difficulty I suppose mm I know very difficult but if that's what you want to do I know, but you've got to sort of set your sights realistically haven't you? and there's a lot yeah I know of people unemployed and what are you going to do when you eventually leave college if you get there? what? you're not gonna step straight into television no I know, I don't know though could go into a bank or something like that mm there's lots of things though right then, let's see now what we're doing, where's that recipe book for that chocolate and banana cake? chocolate and banana cake which book was it? it was in the folder oh right oh some of these chocolate cakes are absolutely mm, mm I'm not so keen on chocolate cakes mm right what's me the topping? what's that icing sugar? I can take it or leave it cocoa powder and vanilla essence oh luckily I've got all those, I think, yes oh that cream, creme de la creme looks nice I don't like cream caramel it taste burnt oh that don't look like, is that cream caramel? oh that looks like egg custard I don't like that at all oh I like the ones you buy, but I, my mother used to make one every Sunday and it tasted horrible, tasted eggy you never guess what Andy Spence's mum did when I went up there for dinner once?, it's vile what eggs in custard eggs in custard what's that? poached eggs in custard custard? yeah poached eggs in custard? yes I've never heard of it it was awful sounds terrible I didn't eat it savoury or sweet? sweet oh cut me a, hacker off did he like it? yeah I think so, well he eat it, whether that was because he had to I don't know, but he did he's doing cooking isn't he? yeah Ah get out I'm not keen on these ones with the personally huh not more can't do, oh that's good why might got to employ the cat don't you? what is it? must've been already off though Er the cat in Go Cat yucky, yucky oh death trap no he ain't gonna open the door, no he can't open the door well that's clever innit leaving the door open how funny, clever how it's done isn't it? that oh lovely boy go on got him wouldn't you kill that fellow for doing that, that's what you call bare-faced cheek oh no, she walked off without it it's a he it's a bloke he's also got hairy legs, as well as the lump in his pants her knickers off, oh you devil that's, that's Richard's that is, does has done that, I've seen him done loads what sit down with his flies undone? pass yeah oh yeah funny, tell you about when he went to court court? he went to court and he says oh about Jane what happened to her? her strap has fell down oh you bugger she's caught I know wouldn't you die?one of the bits of her wedding dress that's gonna pop oh that's a nice new bike in it? that's gonna pop in it? it's not ripped his trousers oh no I know now that was silly, that bloke's gonna go in in a minute I'm sure, or one of the kids is gonna do a really weedy jump cor yeah look they'll go back oh nightmare eh that looks like Foxton no it's not that hilly, not that woody oh goodness no oh lovely he's black hey that's disgusting he's oh look at the black oh dear that's seriously gross that's never gonna work it's gonna snap , it's gonna snap I like that that is absolutely ridiculous that is sensible that is sensible yes, clever ride there, there oh God look at the state of him before he falls in yeah, looks like he's fell in half a dozen times probably been practising for the camera oh that's clever yes ha, ha oh dear er these are, these good this week actually yeah oh watch him done, over there look he's gonna come someone's he's gonna oh I've seen these before, that water looks mucky an all look, look, look, oh well someone's letting the rope down ah, er that's a lovely one oh this is amazing I'd hang my feet, I'd hang my feet over the top he's still hanging on got his head ducked in, oh that was funny that one oh well tried oh dear yes, how did you do that? oh no is it easy to do that? no, you have to really do a snub underneath he's got a blade on the end of it must have a, a point on the end of it the cloth it's Jack The Ripper shot that is oh dear , they're, they're better than caught in the act aren't they? they're quite yeah I never saw them they weren't laughable were they? slightly funny some of them yeah, but they weren't funny as this lot. Yeah, where they hang out then oh pass the yeah oh, don't have much luck with that van does he? well when you do twenty thousand miles of mm if he had it serviced regularly would it stop it do you think?, still have to have the work done? kid's gotta be blind that's a big job as well oh referee oh have me glasses good lord er fancy doing that gotta be mad changing yourself from from English to a Jap an English to oriental that's disgusting that slitty eye Prince, Prince Philip's son if he stayed here slitty eyed git if he stayed here long enough he'll tu he'll be slitty eyed nothing these days goes down well with them mm? nothing these days goes down well with them yeah but that's is that what er Prince Andrew said what they said about Maxwell, he was like a dodgy seaman no he never said that no that's the, that's Freddie Mercury and Robert Maxwell that is oh yeah dodgy seaman oh I've not heard that do you want to hear it? no I don't think so so what you doing on it's had to see granddad, Pat's coming to pick you up? are you going Mart? I don't know please I don't know shut up you have to how do you know? I'm gonna have special chicken or something what's special chicken? chicken with mixed up with breadcrumbs and walnuts, in it? I dunno I might do I might Martin's not smiling he doesn't like the idea I dunno, I might go, I might not, millions of things, millions of options are opening your hectic social diary exactly, precisely what can I say you have, you have what you're having er are let's look you'll have all your money won't you from that thingy doing oh yeah he's gone, he's gone that's what you call out of order in it? oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah oh he's going oh that's a good way to mow the lawn gone without him calm down Mr oh dear let's see don't do that with your toenails, I'm glad he's not interviewing people it's better ain't it? yeah he's got a totally short hand you know well, yeah oh no I love these, cos men at work oh you devil oh no the wall collapsed that weren't concreted then was it? the debris falling oh oh it's gonna fall, it's gonna fall oh no oh no oh yes oh what the hell's that that's just fell on his head? you were funny with that wheelbarrow out the front, out the back here this afternoon who? you why then? he's gonna oh you devil oh you devil what happened there? cleaned the drains out yeah oh you devil bugger me someone's gonna come in come in got, don't you just love those, oh dear, right there it's, it's better if you get an interview, but my daughter I did when I found out I got two hundred and fifty poonds for it yeah pounds for it no poonds he has got a short hand, look at all his fingers they look like they've all been trimmed off he's had a finger cut oh the wedding it look's like a wedding to me oops she's lost her hat he's gonna, summat oh oh my good God wouldn't you cry if that happened? oh no oh he's got some cheek oh just die her skirt falling down in church oh God these are good shut up Geoff oh dear, oh dear lord look at it, that's totally had it ain't it? oh fancy losing your skirt like that he jerked shut up, with the skirt on, let that be a lesson to you always wear an underskirt yeah, of course I should wear an underskirt with a pair of trousers don't forget to go out with ya this is this is a security camera in a shop oh no he'll fall in he's not gonna fall in the fridge is he?oh God I bet he'll come out with ice cream, aha no that oh dear he's look oh no, nightmare oh super freezing really thought it must be deep oh a couple of minutes yeah his lips not absolutely awful oh that's nice yeah I give it to him I bet they're thanking them for getting two hundred and fifty nicker yeah that shop's highly delighted I love those wedding ones coming out that church oh, oh Hawaii Five O da, da, da, da, da, da oh, oh like that one why they just carry that on oh he's lost the end of his trombone oh what's on fire on fire crucial music crucial he's jum how comes his jumper's on fire?, wagging it or something? show man respect some will ask them out he's going off the side oh you devil, what a long drop he must've fell about six feet that's dead funny those he's going off that chair Muffin the mule oh ah I like that gosh what you laughing for?, I wouldn't laugh oh silly mummy oh dear table's wobbling oh dear that's what you call vigorous isn't it really? oh dear the other one's gonna go rolling down the stairs oh that looks like er Jesus we love you festival doesn't it? I still like those wedding ones, with them coming out the church flying oh no can't hear her oh God terrible oh you cow that's what you call don't F in it?, don't er oh isn't that awful? I love you yes Dame Kiri's turning in her grave oh this was funny ah I don't think this was that good, that cat opening the door it's not funny, it's clever though int it? probably nor was this funny they always have the silly one at the interview don't they, the interview I think that bloke coming off the ladder with the buckets of paint would've been funnier than them it was, cos they interviewed him oh four er, yeah, I like the one when that car run over that woman's hat oh yes it's gotta be the kid on the sports day, your joking me he's not won anything he ain't gonna get a quid is he? no why's he gonna get it? yeah he's perhaps Eileen will give him some she ought to yeah, a free ice cream for ever can I have a free ice cream as long as you get it yourself yeah, yeah cor what's that shot just for you, just sincerely he's burning the ice cream, you know it, you know it a rude awakening oh oh there's still fat bugger there's, they're silly them no they're good they are, so you don't oh look ain't that, that same bird no yeah I thought she was a she usually put the, oh no I can't believe how safe oh you bugger he's still asleep no yoghurt, bar of chocolate no, have you seen how many calories in a have you had your creme egg yet Martin? no I haven't indeed get Martin's otherwise Bobby I'll eat it I'm highly unfortunate young man if you don't have your creme egg Bobby I'll pinch it why?, well what the hell am I gonna do with it? no I don't want it thank you Geoff's greased up to the nines after putting on a eig eight tonne of Oil of Ulay you'll slide into bed tonight he'll slip between the duvet is that sting or what mum? we've got the lovely array of mugs, I've got to say yeah, half of then are mine Postman Pat, Garfield Turtles, Paddington Bear or erm have you put our electric water on? is it very foggy out?, have a look at the fog Martin, see if it's no fogerific , you can't tell fogerific fogtabulous absolutely fogtabulous absolutely fogadab what other word do they use to say? fogadabadogulous fogadabadogulous and you used to say oh yes they're having cherry another birthday you oh fantastic that was really good that put your teeth on aha yes it is, don't lie don't you just love those creme eggs? I do not you make it sound like when I was a child they were much bigger than that yeah I know, I know they now you can stick a whole one in your mouth and eat it in one go, can't you Martin?, yes Martin it is it that you did yeah yeah rammed it in all in one is the tape recorder show me then, I think I'm gonna have to throw those chocolate cakes away this plays on let go then, let go I just found it on three no you ain't eh?, why?, don't know what sort they're like, those they just didn't, they just didn't rise, they the middle is not hoptastic oh there's jelly in the fridge go and get it I forgot about the jelly it's too hard now what you mean too hard? it's been inside for two hours and can't get out so I'll leave it out and it'll melt, Bobby and I stick it in the microwave, pass us my cup of tea that's out of order jelly like that oh it's terrible it's not on like that what is it, yeah jelly jelly is supposed to be like ah, you see it in cartoons like jelly is when it goes wobbly out the dish how's it go mother? can you eat it like that mother?, his mother said you just tip it out, like a liquid, like a bottle of milk you're always on absolutely grotoskew , you've got a worm, you feed him you're always hungry, have you got a tapeworm?let's have a look at your belly, it'll pop, what a pop belly you've got more, more meat on a jockey's whip Bobby thinks he's fat, he's obsessed with being fat he keeps saying I'm too fat, I'm too fat he is fat though inne? he has got a bit of a belly on him actually their mum don't know how, he don't eat a thing he ate nearly all those chips tonight, didn't he? I want chips he said , I said do ya? and then he said yes mind he had a Milky Way bar and then afterward he had a mini Milk mum what can I have to eat? go and have a look in the fridge he had a Milky Bar and erm yes erm he ate most of those chips yeah I'm hungry an all well you've had half a dozen oranges, I shouldn't have any more, you'll go to the toilet all the night yes have a sore end, huh as Patrick used to say you'd be able to poo through the eye of a needle , who's Patrick? er goggle eyes at the Co-op, I saw him the other week which one was, oh goggle eyes Patrick, yeah where, where's he now? and he's funny , Ackman Avenue oh Ackman Avenue oh yeah, that's right no Glen Glenfield he made, he makes me laugh though what Globals goods store? mum there's some good news and some bad news oh God I didn't find anything to eat, bad news is the topping's got, jelly's gone like the cat's, top of the jelly's gone like the cat's tongue what's the cat's tongue like? all white no that's, when you make it's called scum scurf you scum the cat's tongue, you feel the cat's tongue, what you've got there Robert likes, Robert likes that he says he, I'll have a cheese sandwich stop it now, stop it, ooh what's that? dunno, it's living in the bin it's dead what's this it's only on for two minutes it's not one of those London's Burning's on, I like that a bit of arson on a Sunday night never went down badly see if Geoffrey's Oil of Ulay face yeah would er his face is gullible Geoff don't do that dear, don't wanna do that you don't wanna do that, you'll get a clip round the ear'ole I think was on Thursday night and I flipping missed it yeah I know did you see it?, did you see it mum? no, well I saw some of it, but it was a repeat wasn't it? was it funny mum? it was about as funny as toothache funny as route canal work, I like it, I think it's not bad what time was it?, twenty five to ten that's a well-known American actor well this looks a load of rubbish, what's on the other side? it's erm where's that?, they can't call that pony that whatever it's called? where's there always be a pony that's what I want to know there must be a pony oh that's it there must be a pony and trap yeah no its twenty five to ten though, still got Poirot on the other side check Poirot out see who did it, don't know who did what, but see who did it anyway does he always end up with a summing in, summing up? yes I like them ones I like that go on then, put it on put the summing up of Poirot on don't you want to see Women in Wales? what Women in Wales? with the welly boots? no no we don't want that rubbish what's interesting about that? ooh oh it's on till midnight yes it is no is this the Superbowl? no, it's the ar , it's the finals, semi-finals if you like this is a weir-r-rd game this is didn't it used to be really popular, I mean everything you bought was I think it's great come on what, what? German, huh yeah, got a sword in his cupboard haven't you? you yeah I can't stand that hairstyle when they shave it off this is exciting this is I want Poirot maybe here we go look, here we go oh Lady Hornblower ah oh dear eh, shock, terror what's his name? dang, dang Cafe Hag oh Cafe Hag yes of course it is, Cafe Hag all the annoying Germany always pops up at the wrong, the wrong most inopportune time. no mum don't mention the word big garage was it? yeah, original oh I didn't know like the ones you get now they're all oh that you buy yeah the engine on and if you've got a car yeah and if you got to change the wheel or anything you got a, there's some clips, you undo the clips down the driver and the back hand comes off with the wheel oh mm oh that's it, you don't know what these garages do you, look at our garage got an old Adler in there mm old Joe's got two old bangers in his garage mm, yeah I know who they are I tell you what erm his mum and his wife I'm still underwhelmed at Joe's choice of name for his latest son, Slobodan Slobodan, isn't that terrible if the worse thing is, you can't shorten it to anything decent, you can't call him slob slob call him Dan I suppose, but oh I yeah he won't be called Dan I think it's terrible giving him a name like that I think Vich is probably what it'll Slobodan it's not got Vich on the end of it, it's Sloberdan Vich Slobo, that's what he should say she says when you ask her, her name's Miranda, but it's not spelt like that, it's spelt like Mijarna, it's got a J in it, but she says it's Miranda , you know how old is she? she's about, how old is she, twenty six, twenty seven no twenty three twenty six then no six, seven, no well there you are then, yeah she goes to school doesn't she, well I think it's sad I mean giving a child a name like that yeah but in this country, he's, he's he's not, he's English, he was born in this country yeah, but anyone would think he's or where ever Yugoslavia I keep telling you he's not Yugoslavia is he? yeah right he's at war with himself you see, that's why he's get ready to he probably doesn't know what one is yeah but he talks as if he, he was born in that country, I mean I could be really patriotic to Wales I am well I am, I mean I always worry keep a well to work what did you say?, what's it, what's he say dead patriotic then to Yugoslavia? oh he's always going on about it, he's very religious as well, he goes to church and erm well he serves the, serves their Christmas which is January the seventh the Ukrainian Christmas better ring it up, his children in the language don't they? oh you're joking no he does, they talk yeah, he says well, Polish I think Polish, he's Yugoslavian if anything not Polish still got foreign he looks foreign they're probably Jewish because they always reckon that there's people after them and that's what she's like saw them standing outside the gate, he's coming to get me you've been, been hard balling my wife yeah I want my ball back crummy Max Lennon she's so foreign looking though in't she? is she? yeah that's that girl usually you find he's got his sister's name you usually find that people like that are more more very patriotic to their country of well it's not up there, but homeland and they're, and religious they usually marry somebody else, usually that I think flipping I thought he was Polish Yugoslavian,Sloboda her dad's Polish no yeah Slobodavian Slobo Slobodan Slobodan huh well how come Joe erm, Ken said he Polish then? Ken doesn't know what he's talking about oh right, you know Paul who plays for Leicester? yeah right, now, if you had about twenty thousand pounds to spend on a car Dave, what would you buy?, no seriously, I mean if you were just like, start, no, actually no that's the wrong thing to say, what looks really smart? yeah, I mean for twenty thousand what could you have?, you could have a Calibre couldn't ya for twenty thousand yeah, but I'm saying what you could have, not what you bloody want, you yeah, he's had, yeah, he's had an R S two thousand and I mean I think that's absolutely pathetic, total Essex boy thing to do that is you know what I would've got? drive round in his white socks and black loafers and drive his white R white, his white R S two thousand I would've got why white has he passed his test then? yeah I would've got a black two eighty sleeper myself oh is it first time he's had one? yeah, yeah with your driving instructor he'd taught him to do but I mean I'd rather have a Calibre than that definitely I'd have a, I'd have a two yes and you would pay lots of insurance to have one so what? so what? yeah but the thing is he's got money yes that's what I'm on about don't throw it about though do you? yeah, well he obviously has on an R S two thousand twenty, twenty one well the thing is I mean he plays for England under twenty ones they were on about, talking about it last night weren't they?, they, back in the fifties they were on eight pound a week no the clubs can't afford I think football's gone through the roof, it's absolutely stupid how much there worth yeah, they get paid far too much it's not, nobody's worth millions like that it's just stupid, absolutely stupid we've missed that programme of the fifties good he weren't it showed the Woodentops Bill and Ben Bill and Ben Andy Pandy Andy Pandy and Muffin the Mule I never liked any of them Muffin the Mule Muffin the Mule didn't like it and Sooty I liked Sooty I liked Sooty I still like Sooty Sooty is still on and, and Sooty still appeals to children it's, does Robert like Sooty? you Sooty and Muffin the Mule Sooty, Sweep and Soo you, you wouldn't think that just er glove puppet Sooty, Sweep and Soo would appeal to children, I mean knowing how sophisticated things are today, it's just a simple glove puppet and yet kids are just as interested in them oh you've had one of these haven't you? what? these frozen meals Geoff that's what they says Domino that looks nice, I might make that tomorrow what I had? no that's what you had oh no it wouldn't've been er with spin with spinach and ricotta cheese, what's it like Geoff was it nice? do you want me to make lasagne tomorrow? yes yes you've been promising for weeks well I've got the mince out so you're alright I'll do it then oh I don't like the Darling Buds of May at all no is I like er back, he's coming back that's coming back an all, oh yes they were all police things more or less oh God no they're good P D James I like him P D James is a woman though isn't it? yeah mum? quite, don't keep on what's on the news?, see who's died died, given birth and oh this stupid bloke gets on my wick, lovely boy Neil strikes again all this fuss about there's a it's only a horse good job he's not in another country he'd be eaten for he'll go to stud and start producing won't he?not with your they got on my nerves them his wife is the biggest gasbag where? just lately where? oh no another wet, loads of people like him at our school mm, he's got absolutely no chance yeah, it's wide open, but he ain't gonna get it what do you mean there's much chance, he comes down every Christmas I know, if he comes through the back door and you told me it's the chimney I know, but the fire's in the way but we left it open are you sure it wasn't the birds? don't talk about the birds how low quality can you get hiding guns and ammunition in a church did I tell you Margaret daughter had, she, she's bought her a yeah she had burglars eh, she's had burglars? New Parks, well that asks for it really doesn't it? what it doesn't mean it's right does it? no, but if you don't want it you don't move to New Parks the roughest Council estate in Britain in, in Leicester, Britain no the thing is you go where you can afford the house prices and they are reasonable there no, it's not surprising is it? well you don't have any stuff left where my mum and dad live it's not that bad an area yet they were burgled four times and that they get well that was somebody had it in for them somebody up the road was burgled before Christmas well New Parks is more likely than any where else it doesn't matter where you live don't give me that if they want something they will break in Yes got one thanks You got one Oh right for you what Dave I don't like this monkey right by me having I didn't put it there eat your chips then come on, good boy trying to nick your tea is he? mm come on eat your tea monkey did he? what did he say? mm? what did he say? he said eat your tea oh here mummy no oh I've a I said eat your tea oh God this family make me sick he dropped it he, he said I'm not gonna move it yes I liked a hamburger please yes, run away . Perhaps he's have what sandwiches? beef oh I thought Harold was vegetarian he is oh doesn't make them . She always looks like a sack of spuds she does she looks like Miss Piggy she's awful looking oh he's, he seems to be grown up all of a sudden oh that tie doesn't even go with that suit, look at that, brown tie with a blue suit get this into ya, ha, ha and now, I haven't got a, I haven't got a space for it maybe he likes her what? for these chips you haven't got a space for it? I have he hasn't got a space for his chips I haven't shall I have 'em? no you This onion's very nice mum Martin's gonna eat thank you make one tomorrow as well? the best one I've ever done I think oh that was mine I made it in the meat dish oh square meat dish I haven't got a space space, space for it but I oh that's out of order no spaces for it no spaces Robert excuse me eat some of the chips Robert please Robert excuse me please, thank you excuse me come and sit down Last time the kid ran away he come back with a oh yeah they usually manage to come back in the end that old bat oh yeah was it nice? I didn't like mine you didn't have any, you've had chips well I don't want mine any more well you're naughty chicken do, do, do was it nice?, did you like it? yeah weren't bad weren't bad Robert stop moving them away please, thank you Rob I didn't know he got two James Bond no cars, did you? no I don't know where they come from we've had one of them this one come out the box yes and this one come off downstairs oh do you want a piece of fruit cake for afters? no thanks do you Dave?freshly made this afternoon, you want some? pardon Robert move out the way I'm here, let he get out the way cos I'm here can't believe that Sky was one of the most popular names last year in this country for a new baby girl wasn't was it was no it wasn't one of the most popular it was one of the most unusual, it wasn't in the top ten list they made oh but still flipping stupid why, it's only cos people watch this soap isn't it? yeah mm, there's got to put away do what? me can of furniture polish, and I was saying to Martin how, I don't know how our come up with the names for their stuff, I mean where, where does that come from?oh when you think about it Pledge, why do they call polish Pledge? cos they pledge to you that they get it cleaner than anything else so they stowed it with you that you're they have people stowed it so they keep it no why do you like Thunderbirds Rob? I did not, change my mind You don't like it any more do ya? I do Cor you look like a drinking then eh? Martin's teasing me Martin's teasing me he's what? no he's not at all he's teasing me no he wasn't Rob he said, you can't have Thunderbirds and, and he said no you couldn't he said no I said after Thun after, mm, after Home and Away we can have it on yeah no, it's, it's not after after stowed it all you can watch it after stowed it Home and Away I was chatting to a bloke today about you what? he said looking for a little boy who can do building work oh and I said I've got a little boy who can do building work, he mixes cement in the cement mixer I, I weren't heard of him he erm I won't forget brings daddy some brakes and gets his wheelbarrow out mm, only made it Christmas and takes the wood down the garden might like er me yeah and not you not me, you that was weren't it? yeah you be digging all of it and he said, he said that's just the man I want for a little job for me? yeah, he said if he comes and give me a hand he says I'll give him five P a hour oh that's really good wages I should say why he's, what erm, building, getting cement and he said on top of that he said you can bring your digger along and you can play in the sand as well good in it five P an hour? no in the big digger? say I want a pound an hour oh the big digger what I will sit something in it it's one way, what was called this way remember that digger daddy had when I helped build the run? mm when you sat in it, that mm good weren't it? what will I get? you get was the cake nice?, don't you want a bit Martin? I know the big digger, what's it called? no thank you you full up then? yeah you said you didn't have much well no not full up, I just don't want anything else. look look at that dog it's got glasses on let's see how it is show mummy how the digger works come on show mummy how the digger turns oh I can't the diggers over there and that's the dipper yeah and it's got a bucket which goes like this don't it? no, not that, I don't mean that one, the one that been without it, if, I been a why bigger lorry what what like the one what brings the bricks? yeah oh right a toy one oh a toy one that's very nice want that one so Sam can bring me that in after Christmas aunt, no-one, aunty Amy will bring it? will she? yeah yeah this one yeah this one, but and, and after it I've got erm a digger and I've got daddy tools, what tools do you want?, I've got daddy tools have you got parents' evening this term Geoff? dunno daddy's torch satsuma were you looking for that? goodness me were you looking for it? you've not stopped eating were you looking for that? yeah, where was it? it was in there where? it was in my look, look, look well put it in your truck now then hadn't I? mm, why, why have you left that crusty bit? I don't like it, it's too hard for me oh, give me that I'll have a bit of it thank you it's only that what you gonna do when were finished? got a pipe on it, got a pipe has it?what even if she's only met him twice?two or three times this is stupid this is, it really is daft why? as if he'd even have a chance of it anyway I know and the evidence shows that his wife, mind that cup of tea, is there anything in it? no no the evidence shows that his wife can't have children so that's obviously why he wants to adopt her, well, claim here open your legs open your leg what about a Bakewell tart I made yesterday I want my chips I'll have some later chips, chips do you want some Bakewell tart? no thanks I've made all these cakes to fill you up I've a, I've had a bit of a migraine this morning why? after, after breakfast had er it suddenly went a headache oh, you should've took those Migrolifs I was on all day and I, it didn't come off until about four o'clock well you should've taken those Migrolifs because there supposed to be for migraines mind mummy's tea you take the pink one or something yeah yeah you take the pink one as soon as you get there then then you take another one, I don't know whether it's yellow or blue, there's different coloured ones any way two different types so that's what you want to do doing what? putting a fence up in the mm you know it's only stacks around with the wire round it and er what for ? he's fencing off his land mind you don't fall over that digger digger, huh he's fencing off his land mm that's what he's on about doing, his buying an acre of land on the field a lorry mm, who does it belong to then the acre of land? oh he's got er seven, eight acres oh Bill, stop Robert take the box off your head mm I couldn't so where's he fenced it to? you know where his wood ends? yeah he's got er, it's like a bank that goes up in the fields mm he's fenced all around there and then he's had this bloke to make amendments and then rows of oh yeah he's been paying this bloke thirty quid, then he said twenty quid, today he said sixteen quid oh it's going down mm wow mm he said whatever you do he said don't stop he said otherwise you'll oh dear how old is he? well I would've said he was, in his fifties, looking at him, oh don't look like he washes much oh God but there you go Oh good lord Er Richard's I know that Richard's bought the forty three I think has he? something like that, yeah forty two, forty three this year yeah, gosh oh dear careful careful Robert yes, so mm oh Richard looks old though don't he? he looks younger with his without his beard and all that on it without his tache he does he looks real scruffy and he says oh he said this cocking up my dole money working here no ah, he's, he has a bit of a still with his mother he's got a bit of a brain tumour oh dear he came out with it, were chatting and er he said oh he said I'm gonna get Rose's dad made him redundant yeah, oh they shut the place down have they? yeah have they? yeah and he's sold up of course have they?, I didn't know yeah and er, well he was in financial difficulties so he had to close down mind you I that's why Richard phoned up before Christmas said do I want to go round to his place her dad must be slip over Madge nearly seventy yeah that ain't Madge I know that how do know Claire Claire oh she's gonna start laughing now oh dear the chips oh there's a a minuscule portion of fat in the bottom of that thing. Her dad must be getting on for seventy she looks as though I want those in the bag no we're having Home and Away first after this you can have it look at this Jack the Ripper oh when's this tonight?, oh great Jack the Ripper tonight Thunderbirds on tonight super who?, what? now Thunderbirds no that's on tomorrow night no, that's on on Fridays on now Fridays are you hot? I want Thunderbirds on do you want your jumper off? I want Thunderbirds You can't have 'em I want Thunderbirds on like Rose's dad's dad closing up dad, want Thunderbirds alright after no after Home and Away after Home and Away after Home and Away and then you can have it on, you can have an episode on and I don't want that then after you've watched that, then you can go to bed after Thunderbirds yeah I don't want that if you watch after Home and Away come here tell you something yeah mm, how long ago did he finish then? just before Christmas mm last three or four weeks he's got this little bloody moped can I take that out there? no, you mind that bat, so he's just like moped thing, he said oh when I get my redundancy six months I'm gonna get a new motor bike caught I've got peanuts in the cup oh that cup's got nuts in yeah yeah you were playing with it weren't you? I was playing with it now, put me back up no you can't play on the side there cos I put, I put a pan of fat go and get it and bring it in here I love this so erm, there you are it's, it's up her nose go on oh dear I've got a peanut, a peanut yeah Marty mind my drink yeah so you see I'm going to get a brand new motor bike when I get my redundancy can I er and I said oh cup he said the money which I'm getting he said I can't find a pea will just about cover the cost of er the motor bike mm so I said what bike are you getting and he said what's that?, he said it's a Jawa this is mine in there I said amongst that one it's a Skoda I didn't know Skoda made motor bikes motor bikes never had one I've never sort of seen one alright alright and er of course the picture and all that, he's got a price on it, sixteen hundred and eighty five pounds sixteen? yeah it's cheap that's a motor bike, it's a motor bike and a sidecar goodness is it a moped? what new? brand new that's cheap what a Skoda car is only just over three thousand yeah pound gosh that is cheap isn't it? yeah and er a motor bike's a motor bike in it? mm he said he said what he's gonna do is erm is he's got his name down for buying a trailer for it as well mm actually buy a trailer for a motor bike? for a motor bike, yeah, erm I've seen one of them Honda make trailers for their motor bikes I've never seen a motor bike with a trailer I have ain't ya? I have I haven't you know the bigger Hondas they've got a big trailer which matches the bike mm, haven't seen that yeah I thought it was a bit unsafe on two wheels no it's not, it's been designed especially for it so erm he's gonna get erm, I said what are you doing all this for I said, it'll be easier to go and buy yourself a three wheeler mm I said you'll be under cover and dry and then I said in the back mm he said I know I can't get a rubber boat and an oar at the back of this bloody three wheeler, that's why he's having a moped mm yeah home and away with you each day touch that erm at the fat who did? pies pipe? pies pies? yeah what you on about pies that piece what? that piece that piece, what you on about?, what you on about? what's in the can? fat fat the fat I cooked your chips in yeah that you didn't eat that I'm gonna eat in a minute I'm gonna eat it they look nice they look like I'm having one Geoffrey can have 'em if you eat one I'm having more, oh Yeah oh Richard says he works for, he said he works all day long for a don't wipe your hands on your clothes that's good innit, go to a coffee bar and don't pay any thing, just what you want doesn't she wear stupid clothes that Marilyn? tight things why does she wear thick tights? drink this coffee oh drink this oh thanks, that looks nice, gorgeous, mm, mm nice have you drunk it?, have you drunk it? yes, I've drunk it now thank you Richard said how are we situated oh you're joking we're not he said, I said Lynn said can't because of the kids who wants a cup of tea? exactly it's bad enough having three kids, he said oh the dogs I'll be used to looking after kids yeah well does he want to check with in America then someone's let him down oh yeah mm, that's gonna be his problem, he'll have to put 'em in kennels, no I wouldn't mind one, but not both they have , they coffee, I make you in this yeah we'll have one of them mum I wouldn't mind one bloody won't Dave, I wouldn't mind one, but not both mm, yeah, where you gonna put them that's it they sleep outside don't they? ring this dad ring this in the garden ring this, ring this, ring this coffee well you can have the dog, but I won't be here for the week if you're having a dog why? what for you? I, I don't like dogs like dogs I can't stand them I've been drinking they're absolutely soft as shit those two I don't care I don't like 'em they're not gonna hurt ya, I'm not having 'em anyway they stink for a start what, so do you, but we can't do anything about that so do you but we can't do anything about that either, but dogs stink can you drink it? yeah they do smell don't they those dogs they always do they they always smell do you want a drink? doggy smell I don't want to drink from that I'll choke awful me I don't like smelly dogs I'd rather have a rat in the house than a dog that's the last thing we're keeping when I at least a rat's small oh no you be careful with it show your aunty your drink drink it on this bit well that I want that dog we're not having it, I don't want a dog you said you they have a lot of exercise I'll do it of course yeah, they need walking about three times a day don't they? you open the door up and have a look and see it's pouring down with rain and you don't like going out today oh yeah but when I go out at night I don't want it I can just take it in I don't want it you just started it I didn't, I said I wouldn't mind having one but I yeah yeah but he wants somebody to have both and then he was on about oh he said, how are you situated coming over here and feed me dogs for me mm he's gonna have a prob , I wonder why his neighbours won't don't like them, good this one, yes are they definitely going to cups in it I dunno, I think they are have they booked it or anything? not got a clue what he's done mm but if he goes, he's going for the month? he hasn't got any, the whole lot is two hundred and ninety nine pounds, that's for a month, air fare, insurances, an hotel and a car as well good lord that's cheap, two hundred and eighty nine pound? two ninety nine two ninety nine, the no that's separate his I can do this really coffee but that's hotels mm, motor hotels is it? yeah, you supply your the insurances were eighty quid good lord, that is cheap in't it? yeah, cos he had to take out an insurance this will be er what's the weather like in America now? er, its upper sixties, where they're going. you won't mm, not a bad thing ooh ooh ooh stop it you two that was worth it I bet he can't swim I can can you?, can you?, how do you swim then?, show me I can't do in a minute why? honey give me the midday paper please dear mm? give me the midday paper Get a divorce they, they've never been happy at all since they've been married have they? That character Carly is always arguing mm, it's Ben it's Ben though innit? yeah, but she's always arguing with everybody oh right, thank you give Martin a knock oh thanks will you open it for me Rob?, oh, oh, oh no I can't yes you can, anyone can after Christmas well crack oh yeah crack there oh I'm glad Jack the Ripper's on tonight I like that this is good em to erm pick up one's it is isn't it? mm yeah two big things what did he do to here two big things that's to pick up salad thing and respect what are you doing? no you got mm how could anybody want to go in the army in nineteen ninety two wow some people like the outdoor life and some people have got listen some people like the outdoor life and it what getting up at six every morning? yes and listen they might being shouted at running nine miles with three tonne of stuff you'll never use on your back yeah they might that pretending to use a gun yes they might and sleeping rough in the rain and the snow some people Ian's got Ian's mum's trying to sell a gun to Christian gun, where's he got a gun from? Gat gun a what gun? a Gat gun oh like an air rifle, smart one oh you're clever at these things aren't ya? you know erm mum, like one of them oh right that isn't cheap, it's not cheap at all no I sai I said that last night what is it?, it's a quarter pounder int it? no chicken burger or fish, what was it fish or chicken? or you can get chicken nuggets though I can get to a chicken burger, oh you're lovely with this Have you sent my letter off yet mum? no why? I will if you give me, write me a cheque and I'll take it when I go out again, cos I won't have got to get a cheque book oh you have a cheque book anyhow well I'm at the end of it I've never seen a chewing gum advert for them before I haven't no I've not , I've not Orbitor extra no the only one I've ever seen for is Wrigley's yeah Wrigley's spearmint gum, yeah, strange int it? these bricks did you see those don't know they're stupid I'm not surprised don't know they're stupid how much a brick?, twenty pound I think it's a good idea to buy a brick, it's too dear they put their name on it yeah I know, but it's too dear, I looked at that and thought it would be nice to have your name on a brick, but to me twenty pound, if they made it cheaper more people would buy it wouldn't they?, what building is it? perhaps reduce it, if you put a fiver a brick loads of people will probably take 'em up on it, business might, but twenty pounds for a brick he does doesn't he? your legs go no my legs go like that, your legs go yeah, but you've got littler snub legs snub legs oh yeah what inside leg are you? thirty six I am twenty nine aren't I oh that's long I went to this man today and he's a real doddery old soul and he's the same age as gran old what? doddery old soul oh and he's the same age as granddad, I couldn't believe it and he was saying about well I'm seventy one this year actually younger than my dad and he looks really old and we were no talking about heights and he said bushy hair and he said about being tall that's not and I said you pick it up again no me, do, do, do, do he was on about how different people mm can be the same inside leg measurement, but different heights, so I said yes that's true, it's all according how long or short you are in the body and I said my son's short in the waist here are but he's got a long inside leg measurement, he says yes I've got a very long inside measur leg measurement, I'm thirty one inside leg and I thought did you say I was thirty six? I said well my, thirty five, I said my son's thirty five inside leg and he said is he really, then he went on to say his cousin is a wo is a woman cousin, is six foot there was no people though got go really big yeah, everybody knows a eight foot six mm but thirty one, he thought that was big thirty one stone, really, twins yeah that's quite amazing yes they can't get through the front door well if they're Siamese twins you'd never get six s you know, this woman that I, goes down the school that talks, who I talked to, she knew from Peterborough and I think she's German, she's got an accent, I'm sure for certain she's German, anyway she's got twins in Robert's class and she was talking to me today and she was telling me her husband moved out to move from Peterborough with his job so I said what does he do? and she said he's a scientist, so I said oh is he?, I said does he work at the university? Lei Leicester's the place to be if you're a scientist in it?, bloody hell one of my teachers is so I said does he work at the university?, she said yes, and he, he lectures and stuff don't so anyway I won't let you I was talking to her and I said do you work? and she said no I don't and she said my children are I V F children In vitro fertilization, so I said how come?, how fascinating, she said it wasn't very fascinating I can assure you, she said it took five years to have them, well she put plainly they pioneered it down there didn't they? of course she stuck it straight through her finger so er, was it that doctor, Doctor Patrick Steptoe?, well anyway, yeah, she was one of the first to be on the programme and it's Brown or something yeah Julie Brown yeah it was Louise Brown same age as Geoff Julie yeah I know her but she er oh you cow she was one of the first anyway, so er, but it took a long time before she had them, five years' wait, and she said, that, at the last attempt she said to her husband that's it now, if it doesn't work this time, that's it, I'm not having any more attempts, that's it definitely, and they had that successfully and that's how they had the twins, so they're her children, they are their children, it's just they were fertilized outside the womb, in a glass dish it's fascinating in't it?she said it's really fascinating I can assure you I said oh I can see This is sugar too many sugar laughing about cos just one dive with that lot, ha, ha What do you think with those toms he's really er, he's quite, not articulate artistic no it's not, its not articulate autistic ambidextrous no, no, what's the ambidextrous word you want when somebody's good with their hands? ambidextrous articulate articulate?, I thought that was with speech no what's with speech then? ambidextrous it's articulate as well dexterity, dexterous, very dexterous articulate what did she do? stuck that needle straight through her finger yeah, how can you joined to the machine how come she pulled it off so quickly? that's clever innit? don't make me laugh, there's no way she what with the house? yes one pound? one pound yes right yeah and also British Rail are gonna give the cash flow fifteen thousand pound for a it's a bit what? well they're just gonna dump it then? well exactly and re-build it somewhere else? yes oh no, she, she no especially wearing glasses like that they can't knock it down, but they've got to move it, well how they gonna do that then? to swim you can't dive in, so he jumps in that'll be a point, taking it down without breaking a brick . It don't look very nice there does it?, look at the sky, it's grey, not sunny is it?she's got a cracking bust hasn't she? er every time you see her you do I know, but she's still got a cracking bust that's why How did you get on with your table tennis this afternoon? Alright the salad servers do,do, do, do, do have you switched it off now? no oh the tape recorder's on is it? no you daft devil . Robert go away Robert would you like er a Charlie Farley rusk? So, huh marks out of ten for erm, rates about an eight check my record collection and that's that then oh yes sir, have a bit of that, yes Barry Manilow oh he's a stickler if you don't smash it down to the ground, I'll be really shocked. Yes well, Larry, have less of that oh no She said if I were you I'd have breakfast, she said if you had something like porridge, you'd feel more full and you could perhaps do away with your mid morning four rounds of cheese on toast, she said, perhaps, what d'ya want? in a minute what you having Rob? she said if you started off with cereal porridge or something you could have perhaps two rounds of cheese on toast for your break and er, at lunch time just stick what this? to your sandwiches and perhaps an apple or an orange instead mine, my white thingy of the twix and the crisps and nearly broken it now oh ain't I silly? one cal erm coke diet coke and all that, I says and definitely watch, watch, watch two, three two, three of that makes a horrible noise don't it? huh, I couldn't believe it, I mean he's been that thick and she says how old are you and he says thirty five, when she's gone, when he's gone she said blimey I thought he was forty five didn't ya?, she said yeah, I said he ain't wearing very well is he?, then this woman come in and she was, she'd had an operation and one of her stitches hadn't dissolved and she said I have a shower instead of a bath, perhaps that's why and Sue says yes that's why because you need water to dissolve a stitch, so any way she said to her how old are you, she says thirty seven and Sue says oh, oh careful, careful, careful watch, watch what, what, what I got to watch you do it, careful, watch so I said, she's the same age as me, she said god, she looked much older than you I said yeah I know, I says it cheers you up doing surgery don't it seeing all these people that look terrible for their age, so she says well I though she looked older than me, I says yes she does look older, I don't have, I don't know how old Sue is, I think she's forty, I think she's forty, but this woman she's got long hair its all just grey, loads of grey in it and it didn't look streaked, it did look natural. Oh Jenny is terrible, Sue and I decided were go to see her today because we had a message that she was in hospital, so we bought her a plant and we were on our way to see today no what's that bit? that's, that's a clip what's that bit? microphone, do you want to talk?, no, don't, just stay up there, talk, no, go on talk a not too loud I'm key runner pardon? I'm key runner what you doing at school today? er playing, playing and, and standing up playing and standing up, what you been, what you been doing then? er stay there gimme, gimme you don't have to hold it close to you I, I holding it hold it far away from you then I Geoff said he's going to Gartree Well I made enquiries mm I've got, I've got an appointment at the school on Thursday what Gartree? yeah oh mm you'll have to get up earlier huh, have to got to bed earlier as well, what was I gonna say erm what exams you got on Wednesday? none tomorrow Thursday? two what are they? French and Ger er Economics and German what morning and afternoon? yes, you can't two in the morning can you? what time does your morning one finish? twelve what time you gotta be back? one thirty I'm gonna have a bit of a job getting Rob to school and over, over to you doing Dinner time, I saw him, I went as soon as he came back basically oh trouble is I don't know any way round the problem of his, his lot at his school go to did he tell you what happened yesterday?, hang on I'll get it for you It starts of Stuart says to Geoff what team do you support, support and he says Nottingham Forest, ooh Nottingham Forest urgh and he takes the mickey out of him which okay, then he called him and all that, then he took no notice of that,now don't tip them silly, what the bloody hell you doing that for?, don't be so daft, so any way, then Stuart goes off into the showers and turns the showers on yeah comes back and says when the teacher come, the teacher was there this time, urgh the showers are on, Geoffrey switched the showers on and then they all start chanting Geoffrey switched the showers on, Geoffrey switched the showers on and er, loads of them, not just him, a load of them did it, and he, he started to cry, and then that was it then weren't it, ooh tiny tears, tiny tears, ooh poofter, poofter, crying and all that I mean he had a right day with it, so he goes to school this morning in Geography and the every body in the class, the girls and every body were going tiny tears, tiny tears, and he said I just ignored it today he says I just took no notice he says, but they're all going, how's your tears Geoffrey, are we going to cry again today, he says and they were trying to get me to cry today he says, but I just took no notice and Stuart kept going like this Geoff and he says I just went so he, he did the same back and then he went Geoff and Geoffrey just went, I mean what you do?, I mean I've said to him answer him back like you would but he, he, the thing is he just thumps them, he just thumps and kicks and hits oh if he does he gets er done, dunne yeah but he don't get done, he doesn't get done, that is the problem, the kids don't, I've written a letter to Mr yesterday, why they were waiting for the games teacher he was hitting Geoffrey and he gave him a dead leg, kneeing him in the leg, he said before drama, he's got drama tomorrow he says he hates drama because the teacher takes no notice, he said one week Stuart was hitting me with a stick and the teacher just said calm down you boys, and he was being hit with a stick oh no and this I find totally disgusting and I feel like complaining about this, one of the teachers and I don't know whether its drama yeah I think it was drama and get that in a minute they were, they were doing a play or something and it, it mentioned about er, erm, what did it mention?, it was a bit rude any way this play and it oh it was on about an erection or something and Geoffrey said his trousers his new trousers were sticking out a bit peculiar oh god and the teacher said Geoffrey stop playing with yourself, now I think that's disgusting yeah I feel like complaining about that yeah that is just not on no he wasn't playing peculiar and the teacher say said something about, he was reading it out and the kids said oh what's his name then and she said he's names Geoff and they were all going ooh Geoff and she said, he says I think she does it on purpose mm but he's proper pissed off, what can he do?, because its not just him, its not just Stuart because she, cos Geoffrey says oh half the kids in the class are all bloody weird he said, they're supposed to be me friends he says there's only one kid in the class that doesn't join in and its Indipau mm all the rest join in with Stuart, and Indipau says oh take no notice Geoff, don't let them get you down, but its only Indipau that's not, all the girls they all join in, bloody Colin who, he borrowed his computer that time, remember? mm he erm, he's given Stuart our phone number and Stuart's been shouting this, this is Geoff's phone number I mean he's, he's been telling every body our phone number, I says yeah you just let somebody ring us up and I'll bloody well be round their house like a shot if they phone, they if they phone ca call the police, they'll put a tracer on it well no you call you can call the police I know but if they just start pretend you don't know who it is well that's right, I'm not having that and then get 'em nailed but Geoffrey says it, cos I says you gotta hit back you gotta do it, he says yes its all very well but its not just Stuart, its been Blankley,Da ,Ja , erm Daniel its a load of them and they all get together its this Daniel bloke, bash his head in, I would really, I wish somebody I'll bloody threaten him, I really do you know your big mates, bloody, he's got no older brothers, I mean all your bloody six formers, I'm sure they could frighten the little twat you want you just need to get him on his own away from the crowd so write to Mr have written to Mr three times , don't bother well what good's that gonna do, he must of told you never know I'd do it any way well what can I do? write to and just say erm Geoffrey's leaving the school as and then say why well he, I, I think he will leave why I'd Geoffrey's only qualm is Indipau, he says if Indipau I'll come with me I'll go, I says well don't worry about Indipau, Indipau can look after himself, he says yeah but I like Indipau, I says yeah, but lets face of all the other kids in your class who you gonna be sorry to leave, he said none of them, I said well there you are then. Did you have many form rows when you were at school? A few but not as many as he's got, not as many as he's got Its a big mistake when they let in, into that school, where did they used to go? Crown Hill Crown Hill its really gone down hill I think since they've let ra , I tell you what he ain't going there no not sending him there, rather send him to Judge I'd send him to Gartree mother I'm not sending him there I'll have to get Geoff to tell you about the story of, you know erm drama he says is pretty bad because, I mean in drama you sort of mess about any way don't ya? yeah and he, he just goes around thumping, kicking and, and going berserk during drama and the teacher just looks on and says calm down and I mean in view of the fact I've written to the school and complained about, but you'd think they would be keeping an eye and he hates drama so much and it, he's got drama tomorrow, if he has any trouble tomorrow morning I'm not sending him tomorrow afternoon I'm gonna start keeping him home and if they ask why I'm gonna say because you can't control your classes and you won't want to now if its that drama teacher any way oh I'll have to ask Geoff if it was, I'm absolutely disgusted about that, I really am disgusted about that write to Mr about that I think I will definitely I think I will cos I'm pissed off, I tell you what, I mean I think, you've been alright throughout your school more or less haven't ya? mm but I'm most disgruntled the way Geoffrey's getting on, he's not had a single parents evening this year, you know normally you go back to school, you have one September, October which is always too soon yeah he's not had one yeah he's not had one write to Mr I'm gonna write, if that, if it was the drama teacher that said that I'm gonna write to her, I'm gonna put copy to Mr yeah write to him as well disgusting, as if you don't, you don't need that sort of aggravation from a teacher stirring up trouble like that making the kids making him a laughing stock, he does not need that, its just not on is it?, and as he says I'm sure she does it on purpose. She'll deny it though I don't care if she denies it, that's even worse don't care, its not a good school any way, tell her to stuff it I'd let him leave it as soon as possible well I want him to, I've had enough, I think its I mean he's crying all the time, he burst into tears last night he hates school, I mean, what can I do with him? mm he won't let me go round the kids house, he won't let me do you can't really go round their house well I can do, but he won't let me do any of the things I want to well you shouldn't go the school are doing nothing, okay what did they do, they stopped the money, yeah, they stopped him from having money, they made him pay money back which I'm pleased about that he got oh wow that's really bad but it, he paid back five quid well Geoffrey said in reality it must of been about twenty quid that kid had taken but er he said they made him pay back five pounds, so at least they could I have a sweet Rob?, where is it?, out there? yeah he when you, if you get horrid boys at school you tell 'em off, yeah can I have a sweetie Rob? don't you put up with any thing I just, I will just, if they will push me I will push 'em back you know that Steven is he a nuisance no how does he's mummy talk to him Rob? today no let, no, no, no, let him say, how's he say Steven? Steven oh she was shouting at him at dinner time Steven oh god dinner time she was shouting him how'd she go Rob? Steven Steven Steven and what did she say after that?, what she say after that? a big smack she's mummy smacked him didn't she? Steven she go like that? mm, Steven very sorry Steven stop running about , sounds like it, you do that again I will, she says, you do that again and I'm gonna smack you, right, come here, and she gets him and she whacks him in front of every body, didn't she Robert? did she hit him hard?, did she hit him really hard?, did she hit him as hard as this? she was like this she was oh missed, took a real swing at it she makes me laugh, she stands there talking and she's saying, one minute she's saying oh Steven really loves school, he really enjoys it, he's really calmed down since he's gone to school Steven stop running down that corridor . You're ever such good boys at school aren't you? do you do it properly Rob? he was trying to do the splits, show Martin how you do the look, look, look, yeah, he come up to me and said hold my hand, right, now do try to do the splits is that as far as he goes? nearly split your trousers then careful, are you coming with me?, Thunderbird one Thunderbirds are go but that teachers looking for a kicking any dream will do , yes I'm starving too hurry up girl oh dear, stop eating rubbish you won't, won't eat any dinner, oh that is disgusting ramming a whole slice of bread in whole mm without butter mm, mm What else did she say? Oh mostly that really, supposedly going to America in February the sixth and the doctor, she said to the doctor what's the matter and he said you're really, really run down then he said to her what I suggest you do is to go and buy some cartons of fresh orange juice, a jar of honey and some natural live yoghurt and she's ate it all, now she's got diarrhoea can't win can ya? oh its terrible in it? she's only been to work once since Christmas, she went erm last Friday mm and then all the week she's been bad since, I don't know what she did when she didn't go to market she just didn't go to market, pretty dead though round there any way well yeah especially this time of year really, quite he's not even asleep up there not pigs you gonna watch erm Jack The Ripper? yeah So what times your exam tomorrow? No, I ain't going in tomorrow I've told you oh right, you got a day off? yeah what you gonna do then? dunno has Matthew got a day off? no Richard? no oh who've you been on the phone to tonight? Mat and Rich, but, but Mat last are you seeing Katie this week? dunno, not sure well haven't you rang her or any thing? I saw her today But he's loud, he's one of these oh hello darling, have you had a good day?, have you missed daddy?, I thought oh god shut up, you know, you've got children, oh he's really horrible and he stands there and he's looking at all the women every one that comes and he smiles and then hello, hello Nijinsky he's a real old woman, urgh, I can't be doing with him I wouldn't like that so much you know what? one week in Spain, I'd rather have that two week's in Australia wouldn't you? so would I better than Barcelona? yeah that's the, actually, actually I'd rather have that best, that's the third prize two week's in You're joking in America two week's in New York, shopping, spending money thrown in the first prize is Spain? for the Ba for the Olympics poo I wouldn't want that, I'd rather go America I'd rather go to New York, yeah definitely mm I thought when they done this, it was, they had to put their sport, what kind they would of gone for that's what they should do I'd of thought yeah that's what they used to do did you hang that other towel on the radiator? Yeah or have you just thrown it up the stairs on the floor? left it on the radiator turn it over Geoff eh?, yeah turn it over Geoffy Will you put the kettle on Martin? No it don't fit have you had a nice shower? yes that were good hello, that shower was well hot Your hair's grown long again ain't it? I need to get it cut don't touch please Geoff yeah I its good that is that up there That's next Wednesday Top Gun yeah have we seen that? yeah, you know I was gonna go to judo on Wednesday don't I? is it on Wednesday? yeah what time? I dunno eight o'clock yes have you put your blanket on? bl no oh you move please oh I was sitting there don't put your feet up please, thank you Jaffa cakes all together now Jaffa cakes, does it say he's that bloke, that kid out of Grange Hill is it?, oh that's disgusting all that blood well you did cut the top bit of the urgh I know sick, didn't wear gloves no they didn't wear gloves in those days oh, is, is a real connection alright I'll have mine then does it say how many calories are on, in these on that box? nine point six million per biscuit How many calories in a Jack The Ripper? no in a Jaffa, have you got the box?, can you pass it? fat, one point nought then, energy one hundred and ninety kilo joules carbohydrate eight point nine I've been good all week I know, last night you went and had, had a snack before going to bed what, a bit of lettuce? and a let's have a look please to tide you over till the morning yeah, me stomach were rumbling all night yeah, there you are don't eat a bit, its not good kidding yourself I'm not kidding myself forty seven calories per cake, oh I think I can have one of those have three no, here you are move it away move it shut up David Swift pardon? that bloke is David Swift yeah you don't even know what he's been in who's David Swift? he's in Drop The Dead Donkey oh I don't think that is him out of London's Burning I'm who? not convinced who's it supposed to be? that new kid Colin he's no way it is I don't think it is I bet you three million quid that ain't it is well what was Colin's name? Steven North was it? yeah right and that is not, he was in Metal Mickey that kid, he played erm the annoying little punk oh right, well we'll have to look in the credits at the end and see ah, but, his face ain't round enough for Colin but I didn't think he looks but he's , he's younger there its not, right, there's no way he ain't got the moles on his is right alright then and if not you've gotta give me a quid no he ain't got no money, will you well that settle for a fifty you owe me four quid, oh did you send that thing off then? no cos you owe me seven pound fifty have you rite the cheque out? no not until we get some money back I don't owe you money yes you do no I don't, you never wrote the cheque out well until we get the money you ain't getting the cheque rite out do ya? no money I'll wait for your pocket money its upstairs mum what is? money, you'll never do it silver yeah well go and get the cheque book out the er I'll go and get it in the week cos the cheque book's in your drawer no its not I haven't got a cheque book I haven't been in your bag since the end of the week when you asked for them. well I ain't gotta cheque book you have did you put it in then? yes, I took the old one out and put it in oh I didn't know I've got a cheque book in there well its been in there a week oh it just shows I haven't written a cheque out then dunnit? does it? I've been paying for me petrol with me money me family allowance. What you doing tomorrow morning then? Dunno staying in bed I expect perhaps you've not got school tomorrow? no, yes Dave's home tomorrow with Roberto eh? Dave's home tomorrow with Roberto oh ah, how do you reckon what's er name can do Ken's job that cheap? perhaps stuff in his garage because that book show's you the price yeah there's no way you can work for that sort of price what Ken say I've always wanted a pedestal yeah well what's he got then? oh your joking, I, at yeah oh my giddy aunt, his house is really unmodern in't it? it is he's got a gas heater in his hall way then his kitchen the kitchen's awful, I hate that kitchen its awful with that kitchen with the back door in the middle of it, why have they got a back door in the middle of their kitchen?its right in the middle of it its nice it seems different now, they've got the cooker right by the door yeah I know, its just how its laid out its badly designed and planned int it? yeah its awful he was saying to me, they're gonna get a new back door or something need a new kitchen, dunno about need a new back door, our kitchen looks totally different to them, oh I know what it is, they've got their door to the living room in the kitchen, that's what makes a lot of difference don't it?but it could be designed better than that yeah when you look at their kitchen and ours, its the same, they've got their pantry knocked in the same ain't they?, its horrible though I hate it. His back door I suppose is his door rotten? yeah, terrible is ours rotten? no, its just horrible back door that int it? so what does he want, oh he wants a new back door yeah and a new bathroom a new bathroom but er sort of what's I gonna say?, and he needs, his, his roof of his porch doing yeah and you say that Arthur's roof's leaking yeah he only did it last year yeah he's not I said get some why's it, why they leaking if, even if they are flat roof, why are they leaking? its not a flat roof, he's got it sloping, no not, he's got the top he's just put the, he's got like this see through frost banks foregated yes I know, mm and its just against the back wall oh didn't you well how stupid why's he just done it like that? well he's got to fix a proper roof on I suppose what is that room that he's got at the back? like er a conservatory no sort of a laundry room a washing machine what they got in it? a fridge mm she's a bit weird, cos your down the alley way and you, you walk into it don't ya? yeah, and all the so I said to him why don't you get some glass I showed him why don't you get some glass or something, just put it down, just pick up drain and er you'll seal all the alley way up, keep it dry, stops the water getting in. Mm, its not many that's got alley ways sealed like ours, mostly all open aren't they? well mm yeah, but, see how he'll get on, then have it from the building, that was the building the other side of that wall where all those garages slope away you want to apply to that , does it say in writing again?, that's the trouble, you know when they say apply in writing, how much detail have you gotta give, for a job?, I never know what they want to know. Stick the C V in and you can't go wrong well yeah, yeah Well this, I was chatting to a bloke and erm yeah what they do a lot of these places now, they, put adverts in the paper, they didn't want people, they just put adverts in the paper, they didn't pay for it, see what people are out there and what qualifications they have to have and when things start picking up there, they, they take a pick any people they like that's a waste of time it is a waste of time he, he said its a big con, so that's how they work it now he said they want the one with the most qualifications skills , qualifications yeah well that's right for that job yeah Look berk brain I haven't erm got the original advert so i don't know where the, where it is what the address is What's happen to this button ere? I don't know, why? I don't know there's something in here oh he's Steven Darell, he's the Ministry of Health health means you union Ministry of Health and where's the thing for? dunno how much money a year d'you reckon John Majors on? Erm try, erm, you know about fifty thousand seventy six and what d'you think a cabinet minister's on? a cabinet minister?, about thirty five thousand er sixty three, and how much d'you think a normal M P's on? not that much go on twenty thousand thirty one oh its a good job in it? mm six hundred pound a week Keith has got his own job as well ain't he? well he's a solicitor, he says he doesn't do any soliciting jobs on the I bet he does side, I, I asked him that and he said he didn't, well I, I think he was lying lying through his teeth you lying git You lying git I'm not a lying git, you're a lying git you know that I think he's a lying git don't you? I think he's a right lying git, I couldn't, he's been a right lying git, he's been saying all the things that he's supposed to say instead of the truth oh of course, he's got to impress hasn't he? do more than, oh look, wonder if he's Jewish look in that back with that star of David flag in that back ground where, don't do that I like this, its been proved that waiting list have gone down in the last six months mm people have been treated quicker, so that per cent no its not how can they say no its not?, they wouldn't lie because if they lie they'd get really done wouldn't they? they're saying that their fixing figures by not putting people on the waiting list so the waiting lists are shorter, because they're putting, not, they're saying that to people we can't treat you for about two years so I'm not going to put you on the list at the moment, so they're, cooking the books, that's what they reckon well, I mean there's some things every body that people don't need doing desperately yeah like I mean a pollack and I mean exactly that's not an emergency, life threatening and they say I've been waiting seventeen years for this pollack, or having your tooth out or having your tonsils extracted mm, they're non in , non urgent cases I think if you want your tonsils out you should go private to have it done personally, cos you don't need it do ya?, I mean you don't get tonsil cancer do ya? you get tonsillitis don't ya? oh well that's really serious that is, its like having the flu every year. Until you got it, you don't realize Yeah its not very nice Yeah I know I've had it yeah I know and the thing is, its not serious is it?, its not life threatening things that I think shouldn't be done on the health service are breast implants oh no, that's gotta be well out of it er, even before the scare came like the silicone like Claire one, I don't think she should of had that done no, no that's different, that is different, she's got a deformity, that is different, people that have 'em done just to enlarge their breasts, I don't think that should be done on the National Health, if they want to do that, then So they should pay for it don't do, do cos tic , cosmetic surgery on the N H S do they? well yes, breast implants is cosmetic surgery isn't it yeah I mean face, face lifts no, no that's what I mean no, but breast implants is cosmetic, people are doing it to make themselves larger and I don't think, its not necessary is it?, its not necessary, it don't improve their vanity in it? well it is vanity, their health's not gonna improve by er, with their breasts enlarged so I don't see why the National Health should pay for that, if they want that doing they should pay themselves, different in Claire's case because she's got one breast extremely small and one large one so she's got a deformity, that's different, correcting a deformity's different, but if you just wanna go from a size thirty two to a thirty six B, then you should pay for it don't you think? Yes I think so. What makes me laugh that the Labour party always say oh interest rates in, sorry the tax rates in this the other way of doing it is getting woman with bigger boobs er what is it?, what are they complaining about? Tax reductions, of that's nice, interest rates or something and those said oh they're two high over here, in America they're four per cent , now what they don't see is the interest rates are linked with the amount of peop the amount of people earn, the amount of people actually save what were the interest rates when Labour were locked in power yeah, listen to this though, they're saying oh its terrible America have got four per cent and we've got fifteen, America have got four per cent because out of the interest rates comes money for erm, that can't be right, something tax mm they say oh tax is too high, I mean Labour want to put it up any way, but by the by, this answered them any way, what they say is oh its too high, erm even the American tax is four per cent , who gives a dam, because the thing is in America what you're loosing, what you gain in your tax you have to pay out through the nose for health care that's exactly it you can't afford to be ill in America, I tell you what you'll have to mortgage your house if you had a serious illness if you had what I had we'd of been totally oh bankrupt well wiped out, won't we, we'd have to sell your house to pay for your medication alone exactly I mean it, they complain and moan about the N H S, but basically its a good system well said you can always complain about any thing, look at America they've got private health care, look at the number of doctor's being sued yeah because people are dissatisfied with the treatment and they're paying for that treatment and they're dissatisfied, so you always get complaints whether you pay or not I stood there did you? mm that box is absolutely amazing what box? that box there that Paisley, I really hate him, I saw him Joe Croftman, is it? yeah, that was the, he's so frightening him, see him and you wet yourself huh we go with Matt right and it was the Sun it was the Wednesday after Spitting Image was showing one as him as Hannibal Lector, and he says I'm going to eat your liver with a nice bottle of campion Nigel Croftman, er Joe Croftman, aargh, huh right and he said in it oh Roy, er Roy, strap him in Roy, cos he's got this like thing and face mask to stop him talking, we saw Roy Hattersley right behind us, it was most embarrassing moment did you get hair, hair wettings with the tool shut up Roy shut up, just shut up, he ain't too bad was there many talking when you went? yeah, we saw Michael Meacher, Social Security bloke, he gets on my wick he does, were from the Labour party and were gonna have such an improved Social Security, and its going to be so good mm I've stood where he is an all I remember when Labour were last in power people have too short memories I've not, when Labour was last in power and were going back now to nineteen seventies, they left the country in a mess, there was three day week, there was strike's, electricity strike, the coal board were on strike, every body was striking and down tools. You used to go to work, I worked in the bank then, and the used to publish what areas were going to have power cuts, d'ya remember?, you were in Bristol at the time, er Stuart was the same, they used to publish what area would be cut off and for what time and for how long and you knew you would get cut off, sort of ten o'clock in the morning till three in the afternoon,usu , four or five hours at a time wasn't it? Well I was on shift work and used to go in, six to two shift was alright, they didn't break up no but two to ten shift they'd have power cut yeah all afternoon, and all we'd done, we'd just have the lights on, to give us minimum lights, you couldn't use no machinery no just a few lights and what we were doing was cleaning well we had in the bank, we had calor gas lamps and when the power cut came we had to have the calor gas lamps on, and er, at night you'd get home and you knew what area was going off at what time and you used to have to rush round, I remember once, it was going off about six and it went off early, it went off about five instead, and I'd started cooking the tea, luckily got a gas cooker and this was at Abbott Road, it started Devon cooking the tea, I remember it was fish fingers and chips I was doing and er the dam lights all went out, you were only little and erm Lynsey er, she came round from next door because she started cooking her chips yeah and she said, she'd got an electric cooker, can I finish cooking me tea on your cooker, huh, said it went off earlier than we thought I mean it wasn't you don't get that with the Conservative party cos they don't let 'em get away with it for a start well, no, they put up laws to stop yeah, that's what I mean they don't let 'em get away with it it was disgusting how the held the country to ransom didn't they? there was lots of oh, oh yeah what happen was they kept striking for any reason yeah they was told not to have a cup of tea in the afternoon, and they had a strike yeah stupid British Leyland were the same oh yeah British Leyland were well knackered by then they used to, well, it, it was night shift and they had took a camera into the er factory were they were doing the cars and he had blokes fast asleep fast asleep in sleeping bags yeah in corners yeah they were, getting paid yeah for that yeah, on night shift that's a good job that is in it? they took sleeping bags to work with 'em what they were doing was taking turns, one bloke was doing three man's jobs while the other two was a kip and the next night he'll be kipping and the other one I'll be working and that's how they used to go on and it eventually, that's why it was ten English worker's to one Japanese because of that reason yeah, because half of them was sleeping and, what happened was it was a hell of a stink in dock, because there was all different workers for different jobs, it was one for fitting car seats, you had one for fitting glass, you had one for doing engine, one for fitting the gear box, one fitting wheels on, so you had ten blokes just doing one job on a car yeah and what happened was the Japanese production bloke he was doing it all himself the lot yeah mm the whole rigmarole and that was why they were moaning about it mm and eventually that's what streamlined the English company's yeah its the Japanese that started them all of yeah er the Japanese now they went to Nissan, they only do one thing at, one thing each that's right do they? mm mm er it, it proved it like in America they can build a car from end of the production line to the other end, finished, running forty nine seconds good gracious that's what they, they clocked it at god forty nine seconds and they can build a car good gracious well I worry what'll happen to the health service if Labour get in yeah, well what, what the, the problem is with unemployment is, is technology which, which caused it yeah, its done away with labour that's right where we used to perhaps done away with people where we used to perhaps have five or six blokes building cars, you've got one robot doing it now yeah so its been lost by the blokes jobs its the same in all jobs, look at the banks how they've had to cut down on staff, computers have just totally took over, I mean every, every area of work more or less its been done away with by computers that's right apart from nursing eventually it'll get more and more computer wise, its the same in the motor trade or any trade it all, if the machine goes wrong all they'll have is a pack, just pull the pack out, put a new pack in and put it back yeah, don't bother me don't bother maintain don't bother, no they don't say that because micro chip is that cheap to make now yeah they just pull one out and I know you know my, you know vouchers for shops mum, do they give you change? no no usually its gotta be a little bit more yeah than what the vouchers yeah worth either dead on or a bit more or more, if you spend less you don't get any or though you could just like, if you got something for say ten ninety nine and it was fifteen pounds and you got something else as well yeah just to make it up oh yeah say you want to make it dead on then or just or just over, yeah can I tell you another thing, any job with Government funding don't go into it not even with Labour around no not even go into it, because what happens is they're allowed so much funding in a year and if the budget runs out half way through, that's every body out of work. mm I was on er one of those jobs that's why for an insulation company and we were on a Government funding and money ran out and it took us up to Christmas really and after Christmas we were out of work for four months that's why that was awful nursing there save trying to, yeah you're safe, but they're trying to, our community unit are trying to be a trust like the hospitals are opting out aren't they? mm and they are excepting a lump sum from the Government and they're going to manage themselves and make a going concern of it as a business and any profits they get will go back to that hospital, well the community unit are opting out as well, they're hoping to opt out, but if Labour get in, they're gonna do away with all that and they want to undo all the one's that have opted out, I mean I dunno how the hell they're gonna do it I tell you what though because I, the doctors I work for they have opted out, they are what they call it fund holding, they've got their own budget, they've got a, they've got a practice manager and its run as a business and they look at every thing and any profits that they get are ploughed back into the G P's surgery and er, and they improve the surgery facilities for the patience, and it will be a better service, but I mean how can Labour come in and then say right you're not doing that, how can they undo it they can't they can't undo it its like the franchise businesses, but they'll nationalise them again oh and what'll they do buy the shares back off people which'll I know cost them bloody loads and then they'll turn it into an absolute cack heap like it was before. I mean British Gas, fair enough it was quite efficient, but its not as efficient as it is now, same with Telecom, Electricity, Water and Sewage mm I mean every Government does some good and some bad, but on the whole I think the Conservative have done good, because they've made more people home owners than ever before mm enabled them to buy their Council houses, at er cheaper rate because they've lived in them a long time and its, its given a lot of people more independence, unemployment would of happened who ever was in power you the thing is it doesn't matter , they've not caused it what Labour is saying is that the reason why there's low employ high employment is because er where, they're trying to cut inflation which is, one of the side ways of cutting inflation is that interest rates go up and, but the thing is that which then leads to unem unemployment, but the thing is you can't have a decent the, full growing economies, its full capacity if you've got high inflation all the time knackering you up no before you do any thing you've gotta kill that before you start mm its alright saying twelve years, but twelve years on a scale of hundred is nothing really no I hate it when each party calls each other blind, oh yes its, its better if you have us and were gonna do this and were gonna do that it gets on my nerves its really irritating the thing that annoys me most is that, the amount of bad memories people have, I mean not bad memories as in bad thoughts, but bad yeah forgetfulness yeah, or I mean how can you flipping forget? and the three days working week the sewage not being er rubbish not being collected, graves not being dug that's right, that's right, the the bin men strike have you ever had that? I mean Maggie Thatcher came in and told them whether they all the they, told them they can like it or lump it and they said the miner's strike, but she still won the election after the miner's strike which yeah was only about seven months after she didn't give in to 'em did she? if you don't give in to 'em, you'll nail 'em she didn't give in, they didn't accomplish any thing, I remember the bin man strike, how many week's was that, that the rubbish was all its twenty seven weeks was it? all well , well in diff in different, different parts of the country it was rotting in Liverpool it was twenty seven weeks rotting away they wouldn't take the rubbish would they? Liverpool was the worse, they didn't dig, dig graves for about twelve months dig graves twelve weeks are they? that's stupid isn't it?, ruddy ridiculous, that's the trouble because Labour are all for the unions aren't they? I like the, there was, there was a, er big bill board in town, I dunno if you saw it and it says, I think it had Labour right, in really big letters, and they said who's really behind me, it was a Conservative one, they said who's really behind them and in it every one there's like a T U C leader one of the union leaders yeah which is true its run by the blinking erm unions Labour yeah, I mean in Ireland they, fair enough, they call it the unionist party mm, well that's what it is in it?, that's what it is but what makes me laugh is doctor he's, I think he's absolutely cracked cracked? cracked is he Labour? oh is he Labour, he's, he's straight left he is is he? I mean that's ridiculous, the money he's on they'll cripple him, they'd absolutely nail him wouldn't they for money? yeah, yeah and granddad Pat was saying that there's, Steven Fry on the telly he was, he was saying he made,ha I think he said he made half a million pounds out of something and he was, he says I'd like to join go into parliament as a Labour thing, granddad says oh that'll be really sensible, he said you'll loose half of that money if you do that yeah but Pete if he, I mean I don't see why he doesn't if he went private for two years he'd make enough to retire, in two years, no sweat, he won't have to work again, I mean I bet his house is paid for yeah he's one of the few doctor's that's not seemingly not all for what he can get, he seems to be a genuine caring chap I mean a lot of doctor's they burn the candles at both ends I mean the thing is though private clinics and first thing in the morning in this private in this country doesn't mean that you've got to pay for it, it does mean that you've got to pay for yourself, but its not like obligatory, so you might as well get the money you can, if you that, at that, at that standard aren't, hadn't you really?, if you can get that money, you'd be thick not to go for it yes, but then what's bad about that is, the doctor's taking the supplies from the Health Service to their private clinics mm that's what goes on and that's what's draining the Health Service as well. When I worked at the General, doctor's who shall be name less used to oh look yeah, oh yeah, doctor's who shall be name less, used to fill up black plastic bags full of supplies I know him the bloke on the left, sorry, this is where I've been, that bloke yeah I know called Joe, that bloke on the left, he's about his personal secretary Joe that's still not it as much as er Robert Maxwell lost and seem,ca , see the Labour party nailing him for that, no you don't because he was a head of a Labour party paper yeah, that's true Thrindon Five Mill that's a, that's er that's two thirds of Maxwell's pension fund Keith's gonna become a cabinet minster I reckon at, the way he's going, bad luck how can he?, he's not, they're not in power no shadow cabinet I think he will, actually I think he's quite good don't you? look at that yeah how many wogs?yes wogs why do they call or whatever it is, oh B C C one employees spokesman don't it make you think though that Keith I mean would he really become pain in the side if it was just an ordinary battle I mean there's seven people there and six of what, six of black I'll bet you'll find that the majority of shops at the thing is, the thing that makes me yes sick about this is, B C C one, if they wanna put in a bunk what's wrong with the big four, I mean you don't prat around with B C C one who the heck are they any way? about they just prat around abroad mainly mm yeah, there's a lot I mean Abu Dabi there based I mean Abu bleeding Dabi mm that's lining their pockets who've they've got more money than they know what to do with mm oh er are yeah , Maxwell, you see his sons are clamming up, they're not saying a flipping word well they probably don't, well they, oh don't tell me they don't know, they run the company see mm, the thing is though, that wasn't a Court hearing yesterday and whatever they say is gonna incriminate them so if they want to ask them questions they've gotta take them to Court haven't they? mm, yeah they got to take them to Court and ask the off the questions officially under oath, there's no good getting 'em together like that oh Mrs with a drop of clanger Mrs can't stand Neil Kinnock you know oh can't she thinks he's a Welsh wind bag, she said, she said that the other week Welsh wind bag?oh he's lost his hair a lot ain't he? mm can't be doing with Algeria I really cannot be doing with Algeria Geoff dear where is the advert for these games, because I don't know the address and I don't know who I've got to make the cheque payable too You haven't thrown it away have ya? I haven't thrown any thing away, you had it last where is it then? erm, erm, oh no Sweden what you doing with these? you were the one , you were the one writing down the number and the name of the game parking wings on three screens four for er, I'm sure its gonna be on there in it? well I don't put it any where Robert's had breakfast in that chair, the last four days well where did you have it?, when did you have it? Saturday, when he was writing his letter if you done it on the night mum, we wouldn't have this well is it on the wall unit some where?, is it down by the papers?, not that wall unit, there, over there over there, he had it, he was writing a letter out I dunno what get, I don't know, it gets on my wick out there, there always like, every country linked with religion for some bloody stupid reason, I mean its so primitive, no body else is in the modern world are they? no I mean not even Russia and they're well behind the times not like us yeah I know, but they, they don't say well if you're not orthodox you can't come here, do they? oh no eh? Spurs are out Gary who beat em? Aston Villa, but they're t , first division though, empty net, there's a bloke standing on the line, how can it be empty, let's have a look oh Woking lost, Leicester didn't play tonight, no they can't,Farnbor Farnborough's last look cor West Ham struggled against Farnborough , struggled, Bristol City yes, you beaut, that means we Leices, Bristol City's instead of Wimbledon oh were playing Bristol City and not Wimbledon Wimbledon are sods you know are they? you don't want them that's good erm, that's a good win away from home. Breken, its Bracken Breken I say its Bracken oh five nil, five nil er they always have high scores don't they? er, they always score more goals in Scotland why do Scotland always score more goals? I think the goals must be bigger or something, but they always get loads they always they do and the goals always high scorers are far more fu , fun to watch because they always fly in from miles out and if you look at the Scottish results the thing is in Scotland though, there's five good teams and the rest are rubbish yeah there's like when you look at the Scottish results you don't get many draws in the Scottish league oh you do, you do don't you Dave you get loads of draws in Scotland? yeah, cos the last few are fifty six, fifty eight are usually famous for draws mm good night C B E, but is he C B E? yeah, he got charged for the commander can you find another magazine with the advert in? no fine eh? fine oh its gotta be over there somewhere Geoff I'll have to find it over its not over here, he had it Saturday, when he was writing his letter over there, I told you I have seen it when I was tidying up mm a piece of paper oh I like this advert, watch, watch this you like it cos its all food no its rugby Bill Maclaren, I like him, shilly, shally oh my mother always used to buy H P baked beans when I was a kid what are they like? and the advert was H P baked beans they're the beans for me, H P baked beans they're the beans for me they're a bit more spicy oh my mother always used to buy Pan Yan pickle yeah Pan Yan not, not Branston, Pan Yan well I can't say I eat either, so it wouldn't really affect me would it? I like Pan Yan actually, next time we have pickle I think I'm going to buy Pan Yan don't do it any more I don't think why the hell are you going to buy that for? they do do Pan Yan pickle still do it of course they do Pan Yan, what a funny name, Pan Yan, I bet its a Chinese bloke that er invented it Geoffrey what you doing dear? still at work mother trying to get something in something that won't go is it not underneath that tissues and all that no its pile of its not there its not? was it one of those badges he's got on the back on the front I didn't see it no no er he had a Peugeot three O five who did? you talking about Glen? yeah yeah he had a Peugeot three O five three O five in it? quite biggish one big Peugeot oh would there be Peugeot nine? yeah that's the one biggish car there be hatchback yeah is that what is was? yeah it, it looked a bit like that, but its Peugeot definitely was it red? no no it was grey, greyie black no it weren't it was metallic green, dark metallic green no way it weren't it was weren't was couldn't, when? there only cheap to buy a car int they? the other day when you went over to see what's it mother it wasn't green ninety nine pound down in it? it wasn't green, it was grey oh well I thought it was green but never mind no way was it green well I mean it was still a Peugeot three O nine, its definitely Peugeot Ken, Rita said it was a, its a Porshe oh, well, yeah and when well she might have thought it was a Porshe, but Peugeot Porshe Ri Rita said Ken said it was a Porshe, but when I asked Ken he said he didn't say it was a Porshe, he says I wouldn't know a Porshe if I've seen one and I says yeah, that's what Dave said, ha, ha, ha, cos you said oh Ken don't know one car from another and, and that's what he said I had a very interesting talk in my French oral about they have erm Prince car industry oh yeah he has marked it all out when it'll take him is he there then? no got it?, is that it? no well look in your other magazines there's not gonna be in there why? get the other magazines how you gonna know without seeing the thing that's stuck? we've got more than we know what the there's loads of company's int there? you've got the I know what company it was you've got the numbers written down here you've got to correspond with the numbers ain't ya? I mean if its any thing like a golf magazine, every week, every month the same the same company's I'll advertise advertise of course they do I mean in every golf magazine you get Eagle Golf, you get American Golf and you get Navada Bobs and that's it Navada Bobs, what's Navada Bobs? oh its a cute, little, little cowboy with a big hat on called Et Navada Bob oh an American company surprisingly its flog tonight look at this, please could you send me the following disc the Amiga five hundred, number, any num he writes number every time, one, two, three, four, five well at least he spoke of that five you'd think he would of listed 'em in a list wouldn't ya? yeah, listen to this, this sounds a bit confusing, number two, five, four, Monopoly, Cluedo and others others what? yeah, but that's the name of the game, Monopoly, Cluedo and others oh right, oh go on, send disks to Mr, send disks to Mr Geoff , I'm getting worried, I've not heard from any of my polytechnic's no, and you didn't write to your pen friend either I've, this is more important mother, this is serious has every body heard by now? full gallon, full tank has every body heard though? London and Newcastle and Portsmouth, well no, Portsmouth and Newcastle have they'll do, they will do don't want you to go to London particular well I don't want to go to London particularly well I oh where's the blinking ad, advert in the fog aren't they? look at that my god now if you're not telling me he went, he, you telling, telling me he didn't go too fast thirty cars and six lorries give give, it was zero weren't it? no I'll find it, no probs erm I did have another one, but I don't know where it is but I had that ages ago in one of my well I don't know I'm sure I saw it over there because I was tidying up over where? in that lot over there, underneath all that rubbish well look again Geoff get every thing out and place it, that's it well if any thing its more likely to be at the top of the pile, not the bottom sock, I've got a Batman sock here oh great, any body want a bobby Batman sock?, phew dear his feet smell I remember seeing it, I don't remember if it was yesterday, cos I remember seeing the games and all that, I didn't throw it away do you know where you send in the thing to? no why don't you address the envelope? er, cos there's no envelope I thought you said you was gonna get one out the box and you couldn't bother to or something well no cos mum was doing the ironing and how do I get it out if she's with the ironing? ah well this is it love, there's load up here yeah, but legend, this looks like it to me Martin they're not, they're games, they're games they're not are there? is there any sweets in there? eh? eh, this kid, this little baby look, savage by a ferret, listen hadn't eaten see his little face poor thing, tell you what I wouldn't oh god, I'd of shot it, I can't stand ferret's I can't I'd of seriously given that thing a good kicking do you want to sit over here mum? well ferret's a wild animal what the hell int it? wouldn't be over there Geoff do you want to sit over here mum? no I might of put it up there and you put all these magazines on it well have a look then, I don't know where it is there's nothing down here oh no I think its legend its not a legend I know that no, its not a legend but its a different, its not like them is it? G something in it? yeah, its you sure its not in the things at the side?, what at he's got it all out yes, but I've seen it yes, but its not there if I've had it all out in it?, you took up to bed with him that's why you can't of course I ain't when , when did he take it to bed with him? Saturday oh god I've seen it since Saturday, I've seen it round here since Saturday turning me Geoff oh its quite there its good Elf looks quite okay see you look at the wrong type of thing, that's the type of thing you look at it was half a page one weren't it? like that? that's not half a page, about that see that one you did, you used to have one on your thing, on your er doodah yeah on your armpit look at that What's that supposed to be? what? rubbish no that's supposed to be the best what? well somebody must of thrown it out then, that's all I've got to say well I haven't well I haven't coffee? no I dunno I might of thrown it out actually, when did I, was it on the table last night? yeah, I've seen it in the last day or two probably out there in it? where? in the bin which bin? I dunno, it, probably thrown in that bin its not in there now cos that went this morning look, where's you read the magazine? I don't know it, I've not had well is it down there? I've not had that right in years, so well in that case you don't, you're not gonna need that any way cos its not gonna be in it, is it?, you should of left it in the magazine Geoff. I can't get it then can I? oh dear, dear why you looking there? looking for his magazine oh I don't know where this is who's this El Vira woman he keeps seeing? El Vera El Vera who's she? tut can't you read? El Vera El Vera is with an E, that's I, El Vi but you still say El Vera don't ya? I say El Virus but, you don't say oh I've got a Verus where's the magazine I cut out I know I didn't throw that away oh is it in that corner?that's where I put all the stuff, Jack The Ripper Jack The knickers, er Jack The Ripper whipper oh I see, you've got this haven't you Geoff final blow mm, don't know how you do it though. paper boy two tut, but I'm of the old breed I suppose aren't I? oh er, blinking dog, cobwebs, urgh aargh this look's better what? that toffee's nice, give me another one of them got all teams in it mine's different cos I've got intimate football gold, gold , quite nice, mind ya fillings next week yeah, gotta go dentist next week dentist next week men yes, look, that's never, that's not him is it? no its not look at his hair, his hair ain't that thin no no I'm sorry I don't think so . Do you want waking up tomorrow morning or not? I don't know no I wanna stay in bed all day yes, er yes you can do about eight, coffee pot on seven no I said eight I won't be up at seven I will alright he said eight so oh when ever it don't bother me start banging around out there about ten past, you'll be up then perhaps he's telling you off he's telling you to do your collar up, stupid boy, eh? what a red barrel? roll out the barrel it, doesn't something happens to her? yes she gets absolutely chopped up killed to pickle see its not is it mum? no oh dear strapping it on him what she crying for?, what she going on the street for if she don't like it?, silly idiot she's never done it before well why she doing it? she don't know she's not gonna like it huh, oh he's still married to Shakeara Bash in't he? Shakeara Caine yeah, but she was called Shakeara Bash, she was a Miss World finalist weren't she?, was she Miss World Shakeara Bash?, she was somewhere, some hot country that's good in it? who him?he's teeth are terribly yellow yeah they are aren't they? he's are white are we to say that we didn't want it to be Prince yes I think so , oh well class rugby get him at dunno why they've got Gary Schofield down there because I don't think with rugby league would it? yeah this is rugby league rugby world cups oh its her that gets killed actually she gets killed, I know it is, do you know why cos its yes it is what's that? get's it as well Lysette Anthony what she been in Lysette Anthony? I dunno Some Budweiser, nice one, get down this, comes back with two bottles says go and get another one, go get another, go on, once my dad starts going it's fucking wonderful, he don't stop buying it's great stuff. That's my dad, not my step dad who's got like a wank of everything . What date's your mum and dad going away? Don't know You know Scott? They ain't booked anything yet My, my cousin she's a girl, she smokes cigars , that's a bit sad that is yeah, very my other cousin though she's got the biggest bats I've ever seen, massive titlets fucking enormous is she nice? she's also engaged to a oh this is a hefty fucking Cleo Rocos on this, Cleo Laine or whatever her name is . Are you shitting about that fr about that economics exam tomorrow Rich? No not really I wouldn't worry it's not that hard well it's hard, but it ain't too hard. That's a nice patch of fog weren't it? . Look, I tell you what Rich, make it your New Year's Resolution to ask out Julie on Saturday, no worries She's going out so what she might not be exactly so it's not the point is it? in which case Richard the laughing B H S man comes in handy Sarah's going out with someone nice, Sarah who's she going out with? someone in the R A F not Mike? no, this guy called Bob,Sar Sarah and me and my usually self wanted to get back, make it serious but he wasn't interested he's alright actually why? oh I just felt like it fucking hell, this is well bad. because normally you get it out in the country before you get it in the country, in the, the city, yeah What you doing at the weekend Rich? Dunno, working Saturday and on Sunday gonna play Ryan, that's about it. Gonna caddy for him Scott? Yeah When I caddy for Matt he made loads of putts, it's was well cool. yeah it's good if he caddies for me cos if he's playing by shot he goes, ee crap, bastard, so I think fuck you and er stiff my necks on to it do and he'll still call you a crap bastard yeah did you find it stiff sticking to a millimetre, going you crap bastard why didn't you hold it. hold it and go Did you beat Ryan? He's a fucker, I can't stick him he's the most snobbish little cunt I've ever known I'd like to see what stuff he had if he had to pay for it himself hard luck, no I'd like to see what he'd do with his stuff if he had to pay with it, pay for it himself. Cos he's well out of order, when you, were you there when he was were you there when he was like slamming his nine iron into one of those brick posts, that's sad he does rate his clubs though, cos he gets a new one he's a twat oh you prick I don't believe this cunt twenty mile an hour on the A forty seven this is where you get a big, some big lorry come along and go and land up my fucking arse the wave if the future come on now, put your fucking boot down you old bastard go past him and give him a fucking shot on the hooter twat well even the cars going the other way are going faster so what the fuck oh this guy's, got the foot down now, he's doing thirty five go on horn, you know you wanna over twats like that, though, yes and I have got right of way don't that put you off when drivers come the other way and you've got right of way and they always go, and they go past no thank you exactly they presume it's their right and just go through, generally find it's someone with either a high powered car or a flash, you know, sort of, Granada or summat like that. They think they fucking own the roads I don't bother I goes through Cor you're a long time coming back from the Rose and Crown, don't forget that's where we were she'll know we haven't been there d'ya reckon Go at one of them, if they've got like They've got no brothers and sisters yeah I know, but the thing is if, they don't have to have brother and sisters at Er, everyone knows he's you like brothers even if they're black or white the parents are just as bad anyway parent be worse than the dog yeah and nearly every one of them were football I mean that our dad was gonna come up, he says do you want me to come up, but there's nowt you can do though I do know that not against a gang like that though, no absolutely ridiculous the thing is I reckon Geoff could take them all on one by one oh I think he could but I mean oh I think he could but three, but more than two it's that yeah got about ten, I mean wh what chance has he got? precisely , still would be, get me the salt the thing is it tomatoes? he can't hold his head up now can he? since he cried no cos you can't act hard when you're crying well exactly and that headmaster said about the bully at their school, it, he thought that was really bad the fact he well the thing is thumped this girl back, he says and I told him he will not be able to stay at school for dinner well I mean that's good because at least er, I mean city haven't done that have been what? Gartree they think that a boy hitting a girl in the back is serious bullying, a boy hitting a girl in the back. Do you have sugar? Yeah, one please make me laugh they do Are you supposed to be going with him on holiday? Er I dunno what's happening yet it says in this book you better get a load of food it says in this book the other day that's for where's that, you said there was a book that come this morning that'll be alright for them oh it's called the cheapest guide to it's called firm time holiday Butlins no cheap, cheap Leicestershire holiday, huh Club Cantabrica, city centre, Spain, France three weeks in up, up old John is it camping? no it's camping, caravanning and mobile do you remember we went there it rained well they said Blanes if you go well you've gotta choice you can either have that's where we went and we saw those lads who'd be about our age, so funny, right one night gotta choice those lads next door if you go by coach from Leicester seventeen nights, seventeen days I mean you'd be alright on the coach, er we went you were only eight eight, but you'll be alright on the coach we went right and these lads were about our age and the next get drunk every night, you know, talk normal sort of thing, and erm they got in, came in our tent last year they came in our tent cos they all look the same I lay there and I heard this zip go z-z-zip up, god someone's coming in tent, tried to get in bed with us. Er, oh get lost and I said who's that?and he went oh god, shit we're in the wrong tent and they went out and you can hear 'em I mean being a tent they're laughing their head off for about half an hour the others he goes we really put the wind up that woman didn't we, ooh, ooh, ooh and they ee should have got a knife and went out the tent it was, it was funny that and it rained terrible didn't it? like when we went to , when we went to Newcastle oh, old said I don't want any of the lads going in with the girls so next morning Mr so he collapsed goes into Tina's tent and Matt's in the middle, yeah he goes morning girls, Matt goes morning Tell you what once we went collapsed didn't it?, oh that was a killer weren't it? I can't believe there's a pi , you know on that little display eating there's all pictures of erm us running away from the tents when there about to collapse Mr collapsed the tent right, and I'm just standing right behind it pulling them fly sheets was good cos Maureen was yanking 'em right off really hard, how many pegs got broke? loads weren't there? oh bags full which one's was any way oh yeah she went down, she'd a fell straight across her throat you know, and she got up coughing is she the one or what? no no Ruth much more arsier than er dying to get the money, is she, did she used to work in the paper shop? still does oh, well I went in there reading the magazine before I bought it, so what, I'm only looking at them, she goes you got that wretched tape on again?, you got it on? yes say something mum Ten C C yes, so I mean the coach would be alright it's a killer journey though yeah, but you'll be alright yeah, there ain't much difference if you er take the train is there? it's a lot cheaper, what do ya mean no room? no room to walk around on a train you've got a think of they keep they keep stopping you've gotta think of the cost cost exactly, and it's so much cheaper than by the time you've put the food on it, your booze or whatever else you want have your he says to me, he said tell your mum we're gonna have three weeks in France, we're gonna be drinking, going out and huh, picking up prostitutes, see what she says to that and if she says okay to that, we'll go anywhere who said that? Richard here we are, when do you want to go? anytime I thought you, oh anytime between June and July the ninth then December the twenty fifth go then, then don't have to buy you presents we can go these not, there not time though are they now? no, but you wanna go early July if anything wouldn't ya? are these your important exams or what? yeah cos once you go out of July then you've got to pay a rate well here you are we'll go on holiday if you go to Blanes hundred and seventy four pound for seventeen days , oh wait a minute, oh crikey it's based on three people sharing,for two see page forty eight yeah but if you go then you'll put By what tenth of July You sure you want to go? bloody hope so, finish in middle of June German is the last one and he says they end erm middle of June two people book a small mobile home on any high season depart from Saturday the tenth of July oh that's after you, oh wait a minute,until twenty third of August and only pay the low season charge, save, save over thirty pound per it's a lot cheaper int it? It is a lot cheaper especially in the oh was alright I know, but there's so much well that one the South of France has wrong it's further isn't further than oh of course it is, it's oh some of, France is alright, where's that then? Saint Tropez go down further I prefer fra France to Spain yeah speak the linger precisely it's much dearer than Spain, France what's that dear? dearer than Spain oh no looking at hotel you don't by any chance want to borrow that four pound you just lent me do ya?, wow what did you want to do go in a central caravan or what? dunno whatever's the cheapest there whatever's the cheapest, tents are cheapest tents are cheapest, but are they totally rainproof huh you don't get much rain down there any way yeah I know won't rain we didn't, we didn't get very wet when we were not when you've got the only thing in a tent is that, you've got somewhere to lock your money up, in it?, your passport and that, although when we went we just left our passports and money in the tent, but I wouldn't do that now ten years ago we went I know I wouldn't do it now it is, it's exactly ten years although I reckon like, well, the thing is, these like late bookers like Richard was saying the other day, the flight ones, you dunno where your going no, not necessarily, you do know er it gives you the flight price in there, if you have you do if you go for one week it's sixty eight pounds when you do the late bookings, you know where you're going don't ya? yeah, yeah but till you it's just that my mum and dad have been on ones where they don't know where they're going, Greece cos they book it all at the same time Greece they do this island hopping thing, and you don't know where you could be, it could be any of the Greek islands, but mostly, mostly you know where you're going oh God I'll get it, if it's Joan you're not coming for no, if it's Joan I'm, I'm not in hello, hi Matt, alright I did an absolute steamer, excellent, did it really well, it only took me an hour and ten minutes it took me an hour and ten minutes I haven't no I knew, I knew vaguely, knew vaguely enough I mean I have, perfect question came up just describe er the youths portrayed in the er book and there was only two, there was the main character who I got most of the stuff from, from what Katie told me and the rest was the other bloke was called Carston Corsalius and basically all we knew about him was he fancied this other one, the main character, and erm was a journalist, that was it ah put it in nine times, no, I, I don't know what it means eh, er Matt didn't come in, er a bit of a shame couldn't no yeah,what did you really want? or was that it?yeah yeah, fixed, flexible and managed yes fixed, flex, fixed, flexible and managed oh right yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, don't they and er advantages and disadvantages of indirect tax was, untax and direct was the other one, you know it indirect taxes yes yeah I can't remember, I really can't remember, like a colour yeah, you wanna know both of those, I'd, I, I couldn't remember all of demand pull, I put down the wage, price, wage spiral or the waged price spiral, that's a stinker that is, that's a beauty, I put that down, its' a beaut, that's my best diagram and I did three diagram' in four essays I hate doing diagram' yeah he's here now, we're about to go for a quick drink like, he says he's been revising all day so erm, and I shall, I shall brief him, just as you would expect, I shall tell him all he needs I don't,I don't want to leave him in the lurch okay see you in French yeah, bye, bye, bye can't see any thing that says do, two of the same sex people can't go well I'll have a sex change no can't, just can't well we know that cos those three lads went er various they say I can't see well are you ready Richard? yeah I'll bring it back with my or what, sometime soonish alright? that's good that is yeah, it isn't bad is it that one? where you going? I don't know what time you coming home? oh coat , I don't know, I've got my key so don't worry about that have I got to put the lamps on or not? erm, mm, yeah, do it latish how late you gonna be? I dunno well I need to know need to know, need to know, I don't know mum, I couldn't tell you just erm stick it on before you go to bed just give it a bit of time to take the chill of it, alright, bye You can if you wish discard everything that's just been said I mean my mother's trying to book my holiday which doesn't surprise me,, but then again she usually tries to anyway, where you going?, what you doing?, who you going with?right, I shall tell you now the exam questions shall I?, what do you want to know? yes, all sorts of 'em exchange rate, like the systems, do you know the fixed, flexible and managed, the disadvantage and advantages?, Rich no well that's a question I understand money supplies yes, that's the money supply and measures, the measures of money supply I'm sure you'll be okay you should beat what I got anyway, cos I saw it sort of cold I could see you were put into shits of boredom, they go totally over the top most of the time my parents I can't pass judgment at the moment cos I dunno what it's like no I know might do me good I mean I don't care I just wanna go away so do I, my I've got me darts in me back pocket any way have ya? fucking steamer darts they really are have you a professional set of these? er, no no, they're quite good aren't they?so what you been, what have you revised then? erm have you done inflation er, er period of er er that's a fucker, there's nothing on that shit, could've sworn there must be well there's not what's the thing, anything on competition or no, no nothing inflation, have you done inflation? erm monetarism oh yes, yes, yes all you really need to know what the question is in inflation is how the why it's regarded as the biggest economic problem and secondly what is? inflation inflation is the biggest economic problem and what problem it causes and it says discuss the fact that erm with inflation now being around four to five per cent it is now a, it is now being cured, discuss that sort of thing, you say yes it has, but at the moment we're still suffering the effects because we are in, we've got high interest rates, we, and in order for us to have really beaten it, we could have low interest rates and low employment and low inflation, but we're still in the middle of it what, we mainly find the recession and we do not have yes, now don't say don't, yeah that's right just don't forget that we are, actually still going up and it means that we're, erm, but we're out of it, but we're coming out slowly, we're technically out, if you put technically you'll get a pass here you are Scott my mother just killed his ear, ear lobes about going on holiday, mother works come on then we've been waiting for you to come, come on oh lovely I should one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve, thirteen, fourteen, fifteen, sixteen, seventeen, eighteen, nineteen, twenty, no you're wrong why? Des bolt not bad, not bad, not bad about fifteen it is let's have a look then we're go somewhere with a darts board why not? very decent ones these are really tacky, ah These are tungstens ah tungstens, bye, bye, drill you can trust me with 'em, not them, I'll have them, they won't we'll have these naff efforts come and get 'em then oh I can't I've got me trainers on take 'em off then no you bring 'em down here please whose, whose car do you want us to take? ow that'll great what else is there, the best of? ooh, ooh no oh oh we was in a competition I was fucking shocked, I can't remember what they are I'm going, I'll have to oh bye, oh erm what else was there that was on there?, there's a couple you'd like actually I know the lesson showing their form there's people like that oh well they're in Corfu you see, that's the, that's the the, but, I reckon can I remember what Sarah the darts player Have they got the ice cold, nice cold on her, as he was saying? Well mine's got Who Dares Wins on 'em Didn't you get those those ones dad bought that, that bloke with the stupid name and I E D too goody master father No I paid nearly twenty quid for them did you why? used to play darts? yeah really you used to play darts? used to play at youth club and so why come when we went to town that time you could hardly hit the board well having said that you I think Rachael gave me something towards them, but bloody hell Rac I tell you what I saw Rachael today and she was looking right fat and all, it, it's just and it's just what you'd expect I can't believe you've got darts we had, we had one of them Bristol dart boards, but fucking twat at home threw flight it out I like the flight Who Dares Wins are they? these are black and silver you see are you going up the road to town then? Er I don't know well you can't go drive in my car why? why?, cos there's not enough petrol okay, we'll go up to the Rose and well it's not worth going down the road to come back up to that pub raisin very good raison yes ma ma he just slap me round the face I can see the hand print He's a very dangerous young man oh you're so horrible you know, you know you love him really, my oh you're so horrible you, you really are the tickle maestro strikes again with his I don't believe this she's got a dog it's good in it? fucking the jockey Sarah cocky jockey hawks hockey so where we going then? comfy not like Sarah is it? well you usually do, so I'm wondering if you're going for the, you know, your, the usual performance were, were you impressed by Rich, were you impressed with Sarah's, sorry with Lorraine's immaculate humour?, but I'm sure you're more impressed with her immaculate assets immaculately, immaculately sized her perfectly proportioned upper parts she says oh no, I says what, she says broken nail you know what I've just got, erm, if I go this way, cos I bet you Sarah's up at erm fucking window looking for the car going by how will she know it?, will she see it? she, she knows this car when it goes by your joking me okay I'll have a cigarette for later if you don't, if your handing them out at this point yeah, just like erm, say a Friday or Saturday night when I take the car to go home, Sarah's worked it out that by the time she walks upstairs and into her bedroom, she normally sees me going down Upping Road, but she doesn't see me, next days it's oh where did you go? or what happened?, I didn't see you, er all I'm doing is like stopping at the end of the drive to light a fag up or something, she's so where we going then? That's so ridiculous South Croxton's got one ain't it? yeah about a oh yeah, yeah Crowston more like it sorry Crowston may I have a cigarette to put, place behind my left earhole then?, thank you no consider the behaviour is on it that's sort of the same thing innit? that's more to do with utilities yeah. I feel a lot better though about my exams since I've started revising do ya?, I feel better after I've done the exam yeah, I've done, all I've got left now is a couple of French You know when I used to have a tutor Fred yeah he gave me this erm sheet in four years for the essay questions yeah and on section A every year they've had one on competition, so I thought I'd prepare for that, every year had one on erm money supply and every year had one on I suppose there is one although I suppose there is one, but it's linked with privatization the competition one yeah cos it says erm says that, privatizing, the Government's nat policy of privatization, now what does it says, shit I can't remember what, it's something to do with resource allocation and efficiency yeah, I did that today what that is is you know erm, certain, certain industries with erm, with a high or is it a low, a low income of elasticity of demand yeah they erm, when the know income's gonna increase they change its resource to allocation I tell ya I got an offer today from London City Poly? you actually got an offer? yeah C D D oh that's alright in it? not bad get a C in Economics C Economics, C French, D German I'll do me what's your worst German? yeah definitely, although that essay I did today I think is really good, it's probably the best one I've ever written the grammar's good, I don't know whether, I don't think the content's particularly thrilling, but the grammar's good yeah which is the reason, which is the thing I, usually nails me nice car you're always having a fag when I pull into a petrol station oh, well especially when the blimming tank is there the what? especially when there's a petrol tanker there, that's really fucking helpful I'm nearly everybody else I know who's applied to London City's had rejections, so I can't, can't be doing something badly yeah especially if I were to actually get, if I get that I'd consider going if I could get a place in the halls, the residence is that polytech then? yeah, you get a subsidized grant for going to London, yeah, so you get like more than normal you should get a big grant shouldn't you, cos erm I dunno, my step, my dad's earning quite a lot though he was at a party your dad? yes yeah, but I should still get you don't see any of those look, it's not relative on this well I don't know how they work it, but I shouldn't get a bad one, it should be okay, I mean my dad's gonna give me money anyway, so, I mean if I, London City so Phil was saying one of the best in the country he says that, so hopefully if they, they give me an offer, the others should as well is that your first like reply? yeah you've had nothing else no how many did you apply to? four four universities no poly all poly? yeah why's that, you need the lower grades yeah, basically, I mean you could go to poly with what you could get, yeah better had if I were to get C C D or C C E or C D D I'd be fucking over the moon, fourteen points I'd be well happy with yeah is that four, four, six, yeah yes, that's right, yes or six, six, two, I don't really care, as long as I get fourteen it doesn't really bother me six, six, two yeah B B D that , no C C D no you haven't got it Will she know you're coming, see you coming back? No, she won't be looking what, what she gonna do work? She's done, she was gonna be working with , but she's done most of it now it's better than some that is out at the minute yeah, with his girlfriend who's he going out with? that girl he got off with is he? the one who I had a good old snog with I had a Christmas kiss off er an all what a snog? I she was throwing it around Christmas Eve though weren't she? old slapper How did you get on in the multi choice the other day? I answered every thing and I seem, I think I got quite a few right, I mean I do , I, if I got fifty percent on that I'd be very pleased. I definitely, I don't really think I got more than I did in the end of year, last year one, I think I got forty percent in that yeah and I think I beat that yeah, that's alright then shit bollocks, bollocks bollocks Is that what's it's house there? yeah there in America at the moment are they? America what with Catherine? sorry, with Melissa? no she's in Egypt she's come back apparently Matt was saying yeah she rang him slag why? what's the point of ringing him? dunno, he's seeing her though he's what? he's, I think he's seeing her though is he? I think so, tomorrow night I think something's coming out the back of that I dunno fucking twat what a fucking dickhead, I mean can't they see what's right ahead? no pissed off with him oh here we go another twat he's going is he? a car behind me, the car behind that just pulled out on to the wrong side of the road, sat there looking and decided not to and pulled back pull in the lay-by and let them go by that's what they're supposed to do shit oh no, oh yeah fucking start now, why don't you, you cunt cunt quick get in, thank you yes baby, yes baby Maddock came, Maddock weren't here for this morning's fucking Economics lesson, exam. Not at all? No, came this afternoon though what did he say? said he was ill, he looked ill though did he? yeah he looked a bit bad but if you're off for one you might as well be off for two ain't ya? s'pose you're right what was up with him anyway? eh? what was up with him? I dunno he just said he felt terrible. He always looks like shit doesn't he? He does, cos he never shaves yeah he's alright, he's harmless why after seeing those papers?, I hardly got a look at it although having said that I'll know that if I do well its mine, its in my own, own work, which I think is probably better because when it comes to it you don't get any help on the day do ya? cheat and that, I mean can't exactly like Maddock well he's dead brainy any way in't he? no, he was last year cos he'd done the year before but this year he's finding it much harder. Hey up, I got some Some what? we had five pounds worth Did ya? went into saw a mate of mine Oh alright he says how many do you want? I says two or three so he give us three Oh how much this is like confession you know save you going to church on a Sunday This is true Is that where you got to now? Don't look at me I didn't order them What is it? I'm not complaining mister, yeah he double mm Spoke to las yesterday, yesterday evening Yeah Got some more here Got more? Yeah Did you gather all spelt differently These Oh got two the same these are on the just trying to contract me down Yeah I expect to drive him Yeah got to go back and sort out any more problems we've got, that's where I'm going now erm Why have you got more problems? get a complete list of complaints of them I thought that you got that already Well I got Rhys says I've got to do it proper and then into Chelmsford do, do wasting his time, thank you, ta, he's wasting his time He was, got smacked and told him I believe it they've got, they've got so many local companies Yeah you know board, even Daleys in Leicester Yeah and they go and drag somebody up in Yeah and he says to them, the thing is when it goes wrong You're stuck well you've got a three hour drive to go and put it right Yes you know you just that's it, another thing is I don't think to ask, cos you hear from the way they were talking they were buying it I don't know, but er they've got themselves stuck on the nine o'clock appointment Who's that? Ropers, they don't know, well they know I'm coming in some time today, but they don't know when Yeah so it's Crazy absolutely crazy Yeah well I If this is where I you know what I've been trying to get hold of a couple of one of these you know the phones, the phones that Donald's got Oh not the, I thought you meant yeah Yeah what for yourself? Yeah I don't like it Don't you? I don't, no Certainly faster than the I've got I dunno erm, no I don't like them at all it's in fact I'm not even impressed with it I mean you look at the people with G six hundred and you look at the fifty six and they're not a Fifty six hundred? No oh you think well that's not an executive phone that's just er a phone with a couple of buttons on it Yeah well you know what the six hundreds are don't ya? No That's the white one with the, with the green L E D display it's got the calculator on it no, that's the fifty six hundred, the same model as O S D T Yeah the erm, the six hundred has got a separate power supply little black eighteen volt car looks like a mark two executive station, instead of being L C D it's L E D display, green L E D Rider's got one, you know as you walk in Oh yeah, the on the right Oh that thing Yeah, did you like them? They're one of the best we've ever done, I tell you what You know there's quite a few about, I've seen them, you know Mm must of taken about ten years to make Eh? its external goes in the back far superb Yeah well, I put the paperwork in there and I well I always keep it in the box so I don't get mixed up then, I don't start calling the mark three key board I wonder why it doesn't work Bruising quite well innit? Yes your neighbours could do with a lesson in parking Oh this one or that one? Well I think it's Gary I mean he's left a gap there's room for just about a car either side of him Yeah, oh I know I've said time and time again to them if you park up a bit, you know that house his driveway that he put up and er he just about misses where the tree was, but he's chopped all the tree down so he can have his grass, I dunno, well even if it meant just supporting the piece of something above his car so he don't get any sap on it or ought Yeah well that's a point yeah there's something I didn't thought of that It gets me how people drive a car sometimes with a to look through oh yeah Well, well see how it goes, but erm I don't, the thing is you see they can teach you so much about laying different bonds and making patterns and doing portholes and things like that, that'll be handy to know, but obviously you're not gonna learn that until much later on Mm, what about arches with a keystone? Yeah they'll probably teach you that, yeah more than likely, yeah, you'd of touch the chimney flue, part of it, but the trouble is the qualifications have fall beyond of what I want to do anyway and considering it's gonna cost a couple of grand to get it Yeah it's not worth it because I'm not gonna sort of get myself into a position where I'm only likely, where in other words get a job as a bricklayer Yeah so it's really not worth getting qualifications on reflection so I want to do a bit of work you see, build myself a reputation that sort of thing Yeah and then do the odd wall, that's fine yeah, I'm tempted to go around now looking at brickwork now Mm getting ideas Mm and probably incorporate one or two, can't do that on the garage though cos it won't, it's gonna be out of character Mm, yeah, but er the, Russ' erm, done, well he's already got a wall, just make it a bit bigger, an existing wall just taking it around the back so gonna do that in the summer I'll erm, well in the spring, yeah gives er a bit, a bit of a practice Mm what's Russell like any good? Yeah, he's quicker than I am, but he don't seem to be as accurate Yeah you know, by the time I've got about three bricks down, he's two he's not as accurate as I am, no, but what I do I, I point mine up as well Yeah cos that way it gives me a bit more incentive, it gives me an idea of how it's looking Yeah whereas Russ just throws it together and don't bother pointing it, and to me that is incentive, I mean you don't do it when you build it I know you don't, when you're earning, it's a bit of er, a mark, a guide to how you do it. And er, certainly take advantage of the half price Yeah thing , for twenty four quid for a hundred and eight weeks, you've got, you've got to take that, think it's coming on and learning, got the thing in there, start to progress it might get you, it's gonna get to the point where he says right, you know you've got them just about to sort of labour it's, you know, accurately with a fair amount of speed now we'll start sort of now being a bit adventurous, gonna get a lot more interesting. You sees like cutting, you know you see these walls that are like that and they sort of go down like that and join a pillar and do the same again, just, instead of doing that you lay the soldiers across the top and you, you've got to sort of cut the bricks in between ain't ya? Mm Cutting bricks is another fault of Russ, it's all commonsense actually if you think about it, I mean actually we've drove round at night looking at people's walls and things like that and some were absolutely appalling, they've obviously paid money to have that done,so you, you, you can see it don't have to be absolutely perfect Mm although I'm, that'll only do for me Yeah, these floors are impossible to yeah, he's had his drive took across his back you know that there mm They do it individual don't they? Mm yeah, there's one good there but, erm what they do, is they do it in concrete you know, but they can make it look like bricks Yeah they colour the concrete Oh dear and they, they put the concrete down, then they get this thing to put on it and it, it sort of moulds it Yeah it just textures it like Mm looks like bricks, another one they can make it look like welsh slate and things like that Christ Yeah yeah it's quite er What are those audio monitors? Monitor audio yeah Monitor audi Yeah it's sort of an L in shape of a O we've got Oh yeah oh did ya? Yeah, what I like about, what I liked about them was that they were dead flat like, you know if you, imagine it a sweet the weight for a sweet were from say ten ounces to twenty kilos Yeah you have some speakers if you, if you do a run like that you'll hit a pitch were it resonate with the speaker Yeah I mean most speakers have got resonate point, some, most of them are quite low Yeah but these, there are nothing, you know, there is no intonation at all Yeah it was just everything that you heard was As it should be Yeah like crisp you know Yeah Yeah, I mean I don't know how powerful they were that, I mean he weren't, he weren't belting on those but there was, he was playing loud enough to appreciate with its own you know Yeah oh it went really well, how much does it cost? He was on about something about apparently monitors for some reason the most monitor cost, monitor class speakers Yeah but they're infinite in there er Yeah I've heard that Yeah Yeah that's what he was saying as long as you don't what was he saying? Some it you have to do I think one rule that you have to follow and as long as you follow that particular rule then they can handle infinite amount of power, don't make sense to me No cos there are some direct drive aren't they, you know a lot of them passed a couple don't they there's a Mm an output stage Mm and a really big I think it goes through that way, but, I think these are direct drive, but it's actually a straight piece in you know Is it? Yeah, straight into the back of the speaker so you can actually make the speaker do what you want like Yeah to within reason like Yeah, so the amp has to be match, match it then? Or do you have to, have som You might, yeah , the trouble is it's gotta match down to be exact or Mm, is his amp like that? Yeah, his amp's got, yeah his amp was built for this particular type of er, I can't remember what bloody amp he's got now there were no, no particularly flash like, you know, er, er, they were saying something to do with clipping, I think it's to do with clipping they saying the power up, the power point's alright as long as you don't clip, because what happens is if the wave forms doing that Yeah you gain er an R M S with power Yeah but if you, if you actually clipping Yeah the speaker's actually being pushed by the amp and staying out Mm you're practically burning the coil out so it's just a dri , a straight forward plattening Mm it can't handle any more so you got a, a playing into the coil and it's not doing anything so it's just, just in you know Yeah I think that's the point what he's making and that's what actually you know does the lamp damage that mm Do you speak good for what they are? Yeah they are To say erm that's what bothers me about it you ain't You just ain't got the power though Well the thing is to buy summat like it you know, you, you can spend a lot of bloody money just to try and improve That's right them, you know that's right, well the thing is these are, I was looking at the power today I, er not read it properly in the past, there only four rounds, these have got to be A, if you want both A and B on Yeah you've got to have A tons Yeah if you have, cos what, what happens is if you put A and B it erm it parallels them off, so if you've got two sets of four amps it's in two rows Oh yeah so it's no good cos it's four to A zones, you can run four providing you only have that channel Can't say that I suppose you could, but it's got A and B outputs you see Yeah but it says here nominal input twenty five watts R M S here it says maximum what forty watts yeah, but that's a hundred I mean you can tell, I've tried it, it is, I, I ain't even had it half way and it's, you can tell it's overdriving them Yeah is that a four to eight, O drive as well, does it say four to eight games? It does, it's hundred watts, yeah it says you can use anything between four and eight Os Yeah but if you want them both, if you want both A and B on you've got to have a Yeah but er it's measure hundred, hundred watts R M S into eight Os So it's Does he want fruit juice? No he won't yeah What do you think to the board game on the back? Oh, I thought it quite witty actually, yeah Miracle Squares I think there's a lot of thought gone into it you know, it can't be easy to re er to, to just dream up a game erm, I like the one about you go to the last supper and the waiter spills soup on your trousers, the waiter, ha tell you else about the Marx brothers an'all, the waiter is er the king of Snowdonia and it's Groucho Marx, the, they've got this massive hall, and er these big steps leading down into it you know and as, as they're coming in there's somebody at the top and Ann says who's, who's walking in and they walk down the stairs you know and Mr and Mrs and the king has you know and he says oh the king Snowdonia is about to arrive, he should be here any minute now, he should be here dead on this time you know, he gets these big fanfare trumpets up da, da, da, da, the king of Snowdonia, and there's nothing and all of a sudden it flashes to Groucho Marx and then he's in bed with and, and they do it about four or five times, you know, the king of Snowdonia, welcome to see and all the bugles going you know all of a sudden he appears in the middle of the picture he says oh I've come through the back door Yeah don't know how many films they made do you? No, they used to have a very good thing didn't they at weekends for Did they? Yeah a few years ago They usually have them at erm Christmas time don't they, usually have a couple of Marx Brothers' films on Yeah Say you can buy them films if you want Yeah I, I, looking what it says in erm, rather than take the load Yeah cos they're not, they're not, get round to it otherwise erm, I'm hoping they do you know how long it lasts? A couple of hours Does it? Mm Dave Allen's on that as well the only bit, I think I've set it for the Beast Master ain't I? Yeah Yeah well when right at the beginning of the tape is Dave Allen, but that's adult Yeah so, don't let the kids watch that. Yeah Do you like him? Sometimes yeah Mm Only now and again though Mm Oh dear What's the time then? Still got the timesheets to do yet I've got a load of paperwork to do tomorrow Have ya? what actually paper or the Bills er, customer bills Oh sort out which bits are you know Mm, I've only got one charge me this week, you don't seem to get many now Oh I just have one connect, connect to programme, programme one, ha only get all these programmes for some reason, somebody allowed for it when they put the system in, mind you still have to check it I suppose but checked through it, tested it, took me about five minutes, still a minimum charge of an hour try and include the customers into as much as possible Mm I'm giving er a reduced rate for a while, so if anything goes wrong we foot the bill Oh yeah say like we're moving some equipment from one place to another Yeah we do all the disconnect cable and yeah check it out for them and they want a quote, say it takes two blokes an hour each Yeah quote them a couple of hours, we drop the normal rate, you know by say thirty percent to start Yeah and wrap it up into a package and say you know if anything goes wrong and it takes four hours then you the same, yeah, cos if, didn't the Co-Op move or something? Oh yeah they did er And they fell flat on their face didn't they? Yeah, they did a move like Yeah it cost them a bomb that did Well we went to a solicitor's office, what was it Friday morning? Thursday morning? Friday morning? And erm they'd moved the kit, got the electricians to do it and it took, it took three fuses when they did it, I mean the extensions fused on that particular system, the data pairs fused Mm and er they had to call us in, well Dick went out and er I think it was actually two separate visits so they must of, cos they're refurbishing the place you see so they must of moved into one office and thought oh you know this don't work, move into another office the day after, well this don't work either and he, he actually did two separate visits, whether they'll actually bill them for it I don't know , but I mean it's a minimum of an hour in both cases so Mm you know two calls, two hours Mm I dunno what we get asked to do you know, I mean in some cases we can handle everything like pulling out bloody cables after other receive in that kind of thing Yeah Oh I had one bloody customer see if I can quote him to a complete relocate, it was only a bloody er systems, probably no taller than that speaker Yeah but it's like a P C a bit Yeah like a flat P C but a power system one Oh them sitting on the desk? Yeah Mm be like, be a bit lonely you know something like that, that kind of line Mm that width wanted it relocated with all the cabling and that, you know er to the terminals Yeah in the same building? No to another site Mm this is why it's you know Yeah I says if we do it for you it'll cost you a fortune, he said yeah cos a lot of it's bloody play by ear you know the contract's Yeah put together Yeah if, they can't, they've got this system when they can key it in you know and comes up with a price, but it's that bloody strip Yeah you're better off just putting a bloody mm mm Now is the time for the engineering man that is it yeah So you, it, he got you to move it in the end? Yeah I didn't do it in myself like, but we did, we did end, end up with yeah. I went to some er, what was it, estate agents erm Alan Orwood on King Street, I says to them er, what was it, want an extra extension put in who do you go to? I says well where did you get the system from? Communications, I said well you can either go to them or you can got to, we'll do it for ya, so it's really up to you, he says well who's the cheapest? I says well I don't know to be honest, I says I don't deal with them, but we were talking about Mercury these cross-routing got one of these systems here Mm and then I said have you got, are these cross-routing it? He says no, he says we've thought about it, I says well you really ought to have it I says if you're dial dialling a lot of erm, cos they dial a lot of these insurance companies and er mortgage lenders, the head offices, they're always out in Ottingham, I said the Mercury pin number only cost you seven pound fifty a year, I says you think you can save that in a week so er ha so erm he was on about it, he says who's the cheapest for that? I says well we, we put erm a mailshot out for four hundred and ninety nine pound, cos the software and all the re-programming involved, I says Ford Communications followed it up, you know, they put a mailshot out for two hundred and ninety nine pound all in, oh he says I think I'd rather prefer G P T to them Mm which is erm now I'm dealing all the same company, maintenance and everything Mm so er we've got to hang on to it Mm surprising how, especially the, the bigger companies as well they tend to want to do things Yeah, it's only a small estate agent Yeah it's, it's surprising how many companies want to like leave that side of things to un Yeah one company may handle the lot from that's it, yeah, yeah There's a lot of money to be made in that if you want little bits of, put things here and there that you can different mm yeah I even if he puts the cable in, did replace put the cable in then? No we subcontract it Oh yeah we've got two subcontractors that we get in touch with, they just do it and then bill owes and then we uplift it Yeah but effectively the customers are only dealing with plastic of Mm Yeah for their own in installation like Yeah that's right yeah Yeah probably as we don't add any real value when we did little jobs like the cabling you know Yeah they come to us and all we've done is uplifting and gone bloody subcontracting Yeah whereas other bigger sites we do all the planning and everything you know Mm so we actually add some value to it Well we do that, we do that, we, we know Yeah exactly what we've got, erm Yeah how many clients we've got, you know for updating, what the capacities are and plus er we don't know erm what sort of cable we've got in so they might have only a ten P a cable when they already have nine pairs in use Yeah and they want two extra extensions you see in a certain area, we obviously don't know that Mm only the contractors do and even they only know when they go on site so, but we, we sort of say you do this, you do that and then we contract to who can do it, there's some of them by er usually mm I think for er even for upgrades we er the contracts do it sometimes which to me's wrong cos they aren't engineers Mm But what er what what needles me a bit, but you can't blame them cos I, if I was er a small communications firm I'd do the same myself, but, you see we won't sell now small systems through a sell we do it through a dealership, like if you want a Cortin if you want a Sierra you've got to go to Cowlers or something you can't go to Ford Mm for it, they won't sell it ya, it's the same as us, we won't sell direct Mm so these businesses they buy from you know erm communications company, a local company or Nottingham Telephones or something like that Mm and, erm what they tend to do once it's gone in they'll say if there's anything you need, if you get any problems on the system or there's anything you want he says get in touch with us, he says and if necessary we'll get in touch with and we'll sort it out ourselves and what they do, if a customer says oh there's a phone that's broke, or it's not working or something like that, they'll say oh okay we'll get in touch with the maintenance for you, you see, cos he's making nowt out of it, if you say we dropped the phone and broke it, well we'll send a and then they send an engin one of their blokes out with a replacement phone and charge him for a new one, once they say wants some re-programming doing, oh yeah were sending an engineer round and they get, the dealer then gets the money for it so all we get is the flack end of it you know so we, a service contract it's priced because, low because you know you're gonna make a bit on moves and changes Mm and that sort of thing, you know re-programming and upgrade, but we don't get that now because the er, the dealers are filtering all that sort of work off Mm which it can't be right cos, I suppose in a way it's none of our business but it is I mean if it gets to it, it puts our company in financial difficulties it means it's jobs on the line int it that sort of thing Mm that's why we've got to start cutting back there's no money for wage rises and that sort of thing so what they are doing you see, an authorized dealer, well even a non-authorized dealer get hold of a piece of kit and then somebody say want this system, right okay, and they just have a big load of forms for maintenance agreements and all they do the dealer'll go along and put this kit in, B T'll come along and say yeah that conforms to regulations, sign here, the customer er sign here, the dealer send the maintenance agreement to us, we signed it, send it back, we've never even seen it, then we turn up and find that the main control unit's high up in the attic or in a damp cellar, in a cupboard where you can't see it, there's no light and stuff like that and we're taking jobs on like that and it you know, it's just impossible to work on them Mm you see, but B T are not interested in that, all they're interested in is that the wiring's, you know that the boards are Mm the series that they should be, but we do pre-maintenance inspections now Mm and, cos I said to the dealers for a long time you know don't put them under stairs, don't put them in store rooms, they get locked, locked up with vacuum cleaners and you can't get to the gear when you go to them, don't put them high up on the wall we can't reach them and they just laugh, but er, I think the last laugh's on us now cos er if I see one high up on the wall, I say well that, I say we're not accepting that, you have to move it Mm what you doing you daft cat? What a life Eh? What a life eh? I know, woke up this morning she was, she was obviously cold, cat was right under the covers, snuggled right up to me and got her, her chin on me arm like that, I was asleep Justifying Nation, did you like that? Good innit? Mm, mm like that one that's quite good What's that? A new one where he got up a Roger's got Transmission Vamp erm Velveting Yeah, yeah that's good Yes C D Where? Erm West Park Leisure Centre Oh It's a bit in the Midlands sort of What Wendy James was she? Mm, she stop the bloody ha, stop the traffic when she used to walk in you know Yeah Everybody but you was looking at her out the window, incredible she really was Yeah, very short int she though Wendy James Is she? Oh I dunno Oh yeah, she's only about four foot ten Oh I didn't know, didn't know that Mm right midget Oh Yeah Oh she's quite bright though ain't she? Yeah Really She's no thicko is she? I like them, I like erm Transmission Vamp Yeah Crashers one of my favourites too your the only one as well Yeah Rich er Russ played that yesterday, I played it through that on his C D, put it through his Leek speakers, brilliant Mm I used to like a lot of that stuff you know the New Wave the erm Yeah The Stranglers er something Do you want some more fruit juice? No Did you read that proper that bit? Yeah most of it like, yeah you see if there's any what Young Bailey Yeah critics did you see that? Eh? The critics? Not under that one no where they didn't like the Christmas, not the modern parents where they, they wouldn't let them have a Christmas tree, the erm the critics is was erm oh what was that about? We saw it on telly and the er what was it Crispen or er Crispen something typical vegetarian names and she was criticizing the television Top Of The Pops and how they could do better you know and they got an art Oh I remember you saying yeah it'd cost you about a hundred thousand quid and by the time they've done it, it's exactly the same as what the other one was . They're not tending to play Bohemian Rhapsody on the er radio so much are they as er No The Days Of Our Lives, they tend to play that a bit more Yeah they need to I've never heard that you know until, until it was, this round, since it last come out must be out of touch in me old age Probably, perhaps you don't notice it so much do you, but something, something like that breaks the tension on it don't it I suppose Yeah if you don't , if you don't like it you probably just put it to the back of your mind then Yeah dismiss it something Yeah , yeah, what's the other one? It uncle Vern, big Vern something? yeah, he's all, all erm he's on the front cover ain't he, I'm not spending my Christmas in joking he's, he's thinking the law's after him all the time He's always wanting to top himself as well isn't he? Yeah eh? Completely useless isn't he? Which one's that? It's the spook of Brassnick isn't it out of Dandy is it? Was it the Dandy? Sparky was it? That bloody one No the cos Brassnick was the one with the square head and the cap weren't he? Yeah, I didn't think there was a children's one I think cos we used to have them on a trolley, yeah mm, I wonder if that is the same that I, I think next time I get a Whizz I'll erm, I'll look cos there's a Zit comic as well Yeah I'll have a look and see if it's the same publishers, cos it looks the same kind of format, but then again it probably would be cos it's aimed at the same market Yeah so they're probably trying to muscle into the er that niche you see, but er brown bottle you find the critics? No I ain't read this Ain't ya? no I've not read that Take it until you've read it No you're alright, it's Keep the cheapskates parade they've got inflatable sheep and all sorts for set up here oh it's still number one then Yeah What you looking at there? No it's er pair of tits on the front on the tree On the tree house yeah, yeah, what's that one called? Leafy Woods, The House in Leafy Woods That's it, yeah what was the one er, the out of date Christmas puddings, did you read that one as well? It's about four pages long that one where at the end, you don't, you know, you expect it's haunted to be a real you know, she says oh no screw that we've got the market by the bollocks the vicar Adolf Hitler they've been playing loads of, out of date Christmas puddings I don't know but the artwork's very good ain't it? Yeah You know the ideas there I think The men's best buy in Leafy Woods when Frank taught the children many of natures wonderful secrets Ha what about these done, is it safe to eat these? No Jack, cos you see these are rocks Oh dear A modern parent sitting there with a polo neck jumper on loads of big teeth Play all the record after er Queen aren't they? What's that? This is funny number one, probably Queen's not number one any more then I don't know put the radio on and find out Something about Kwiksave not being in these supermarkets Yeah Yeah I've always said Kwiksave are the best Well, bloody hell only nineteen pence cheaper out of a bo basketful Eh? Only nineteen pence cheaper out of a basketful, everybody else is only pennies over Oh yeah It's still cheaper we notice the joints of beef in Tesco gone up by a few quid Is what? gone up by a few quid from six pound odd to eight pound odd Oh, it says here the basic necessities the things you buy have er have actually gone up, or they've hardly moved at all. that amp's good Is it? Mm yeah I like that So when they picking his car up then? Tonight I think Yeah? I was going to ring him up tonight gonna ring him up after the So which one's having it? Well the first one's already had the first chance Mm I'm gonna tell him there'll be no fetch it'll go to the tomorrow night the other one Mm mm, you've done well then to get that one I'm bloody sure I wouldn't of paid it no way, er, thing is though you see when you first look at it, it don't look a bad car, but when you start studying it closely you start to see just exactly what problems it's got with it did you point out the faults on it then? Think he told him that's why it won't did he tell him about the hole in the wing then? And the head gasket that had gone? Said it, the bloke at the garage said they've changed the oil and that now he said it ain't bloody leaking You don't get all that water from nowhere who choose the oil? The bloke at the garage? Terry did it I know Terry changed it, yeah but it's not well it ain't run far enough has it? Really I reckon there's something wrong, convinced of it, oh it runs alright once it's moving it's just such an awkward driver that's all I was glad to get out of the thing I was did knock the bloody er whatsit down, buses knock the er gate way down to the embankment, were jogging down there tonight, I'll have a look at it mm on about it Flogged it No, none of them yeah the lad with the Porsche offered three thousand with four brand new tyres on it and a year's M O T, that's what he offered when the when it was done Yeah and the other one never got back, he said he'd ring up to eleven o'clock last night, half past ten Ain't you rang him? Oh no, cos it er you'll took that three grand Pardon? You ought to have took that three grand Yeah, but that three grand the bloke changed his mind I thought you said the three grand as it stood without the M O T and anything The lad rang and offered Terry three thousand pounds Yeah and his dad came with him Yeah and said he wanted an M O T on it, so his dad offered but he scrubbed his did, he wouldn't let him do it Oh he wanted an M O T, so Terry M O, he get four brand new tyres on Yeah and then say I don't want it Yeah, they, it was them who got us to M O T it What you ought to do was to said to him give me a deposit Mm give me a deposit on it, I get it M O T'd if you change your bloody mind too bad That's right you can pay for the M O T Yeah, that was like in good faith really weren't it, it's M O T So what's happened now then has he changed his mind then? Has he told you he don't want it? Well I quoted the three thousand as it stood, and, but Wayne won't, Wayne won't take that, in fact Wayne says on the phone didn't he tell him to thought he wanted an M O T and Yeah three thousand, the thing is it's got four brand new tyres Yeah twelve months' M O T just to what to pay what the lad had offered it Yeah for it that's how you get Porsches innit? Yeah no ta But the other one didn't get back to me Apparently said said he was gonna ring me last night and he's had plenty of time to ring tonight Mm so he's not bothered either No That surprised me cos they both were keen when Yeah they were looking over it We see if anything happens really The thing is Cool down the thing is, he saw it without an M O T and that lad wanted it, as soon as you've got it M O T'd he don't want it Yeah but he wanted it as well they do waste your bloody time they're I'm going to put I tell you what that's the worse thing about cars, getting rid of them erm I'm going to put in the paper again Friday, Saturday and then Wayne's gonna have to borrow it, it's his problem it's not mine, he's gonna have to sort it out Mm if he's gonna borrow the money and get it The only good thing are at least his tyres Yeah if it's or something like that that's right then I can, I wanted he wanted four tyres? Four, every one, mind you I knew there was Borderline I mean each one was borderline yeah Oh yeah I mean one point six millimetres something like Oh that's right A hundred and ninety three quid for four tyres It is, yeah I know they're all some How much? A hundred and ninety three quid Mm It'll pay, it'll pay Wayne to keep it now until he comes back and Yeah probably so yeah, and at this time of year they're fetching so ridiculous in low money anyway, probably better off in the summer when the lads want to go out, out and about, well they're not bothered now nobody wants to go anywhere do they? So erm He might go and get a loan put it in the bloody garage and forget it ain't he? Yeah it's er I take the car back half term, if, you know, I don't mind driving it down there, but the thing is how am I gonna get back if I drive it down, it's gonna cost me forty pound fifty Well wait until he's gonna come one weekend and you go down there and then come back together, oh why then again you're wasting your bloody, ha He's going away next week Is he? Oh dear that's why he's selling it, he's going away for seven why? Why not sell it? No, but said it oh and then our dad lent you that three thousand when you moved in he didn't lend me three thousand quid, he cut it off the will It don't matter to me, I'm not bothered, it's just, it's just me and you should have this, look, it's his money, I'm not bothered, I've not well you know if I, I said is it gonna cause any problems when he did it, cos it was er, it was er, to me Not with you No not with you No, but it was a loan to me and I said to my dad he was loaning it me and I said to him erm I pay you back and then when I went to pick the cheque up er he says er well me mum says he giving you that you know he says what we're gonna do is when, when they write the will out you'll get that much less than the others, I says well as long as it ain't gonna cause any problems Not with me I'm sure it's not you know and he says no I, I reckon I had a word with our Margaret she said no it don't matter, but if that's gonna be the case I'd rather give it to him back, I mean I've got it Mm she she says it should be you three, me three and well I don't believe that, well and I'll give it to him back then Oh don't say anything I've got the money in the bank, I might as well not after all give it to him not after all this time, he's probably calmed down now, but er if, if our mum and dad give me anything she takes the hump, but mum and dad can give Margaret anything and it does not bother me Funny, a bit like that I couldn't, I couldn't care less honestly Well she always used to say, why you don't say anything, but she always used to say to, she'd never come down to the house, I mean I don't think she's been to my house, house five times She don't it does my house, in fact it come the other day when Kerry had to pick a battery up and I walked out the front with Kerry and he sat in the car and didn't even look at me Yeah yet when you go round to the house he's sociable enough She bought me at my didn't come in, I cannot be doing with that I don't think she's been five times to my house in all the time I've lived there, now in the early days er she said that when it, hang on, she said she'd never come down cos she didn't like er Mm I thought well that's fair comment cos there's people's houses I'd stay away from cos I don't like the wives, so I mean, you know, that's, I don't go round, but the thing is she's been gone about what three year now, four year or something or however long it is why don't she come now? Perhaps our Marg she's just that way oh it don't bloody matter to me A apart from that she can stay away she can come, come round apart from that she can take her choice that would upset me mum and dad, I don't want, they're too old to be upset What? you know perhaps she's mellowed now, I mean the last time she went on with it, about it, was probably over a year ago, but she's still going on about it definitely a year ago not just What to mum and dad or to you? er she's on, I think she said something earlier, well she told me she said something to mum and dad earlier on But she hadn't? I don't know if she'd not Liar but she said I want, no, Keith had three thousand we ought to have it and erm, I said it's mum and dad's money it's got nothing to do with you, you've got kids, we've had that money and erm, you know, they spend it on the six of them pocket money for sixteen years it all of them have left school now Yeah that's just how Margaret, she's just that way, it used to hurt me at one time, but I, I don't hurt easily You know roughly I'm, I'm, I'm myself so much, that erm nothing bothers me, everything just rides straight across me back I used to, there's one of the women I work with used is a shout and she used to upset me and mm Not that she saw me teased, but even now I can give her back you know Mm and I don't stand any nonsense from anybody, but erm Mm as far as me mum and dad are concerned I'm, I try and protect them Mm I, just erm, I'm on now this year to have me mum and dad cos she never had them at Christmas and I thought it's not fair, you know, she's the Right me mum and dad'll feel it Yeah oh don't, I reckon it was June who got up there Do you? Yeah, I've never been the same since I was there you know Are you? No, no it's hard I erm I always vowed I'd never let erm, never let anything get to me like that again Mm you know, cos I was in desperation then, but, nobody, I mean I just, I just don't bother, I don't let things bother me it's as simple as that It's not good building no that's right, yeah, I mean, I, I've said it, I don't care, but er I've said in the past that er, I think some of the reason me and Ann split up was, I mean she always used to say I never treated her right and all things like that, I did you know, and I do care for her, but a lot of the things was I never showed it because erm if anything bothered me I never know it showed and it didn't bloody bother me because I'd resolved myself after Julie that I'd never let anything bother me again Mm well you have to put your defences down, but not all women are like that Oh I know they're not like them two, erm No, well I've meet quite a few since and they're alright, they come and they go, but, I don't know That Ann probably be alright now, but that's how she should ever so yeah Used to let them at me mum leave er my kids that she made of hers, yet she, me mum never treated them all the same if that, if anybody would see that it'd be somebody in neutral position, like me, and as far as I'm concerned treat them all the same Mm, mm and they treat us all the same an'all but she's, she's terrible, she's got a good point you see you got to let them stop, but it's just, she's got an extremely jealous nature Yeah and, er I always say that I am so grateful I am not, because I've seen what it's done and our Marg with Val her sister, we've both got sisters who are extremely jealous you've seen them, you've seen jealously eat away at them Yeah and I say that I am so grateful that Yeah that I'm not jealous yet and both of them Yeah I'm the same have got more than me Yeah well that's it I know I've got a detached house and Marg's got a semi, but Marg lives in much more erm Con financial comfort appreciate their lives that Yeah you know we've erm, we've chosen to have the erm Material side property Yeah Well not really material just got better taste than me Why is she what's better about her house than yours? Well it always looks beautiful anyway Well that's only cos, why is it? So you think Yeah, but so is this Fucking all secondhand ah, but the only bloody reason it's secondhand is cos it's the, that's the style you want Mm that's why I'm happy with this style it's the style you want Yeah I'm happy with it you can't get new stuff, you can't go out and get something new like that, to that quality Mm, I'm happy with it Mm not I well I'm on about doing some stuff I am cos I can't get, can't find what I want, build my own yeah We've had, we've had the video repaired and up to date, one hour's work Yeah no, no parts thirty quid You're joking I'm gonna ring up to that tomorrow Is it got service actually it was thirty five but five of it was one hour, thirty pounds and I took it to them You took it to them? Yeah Wonder if they've charged ya for er Well we charge fifty pound an hour you know Oh do you? Is service I don't know er well probably gone to the best place maybe it's right Well that's right, yes Well Terry said it was because, we took this, we took that, we took, taken a place on Pranting Street and it still don't work Yeah, it yeah, so we said next time we have anything we'll take it to across the So what was wrong with it then? The cassette kept getting stuck It's only the belt usually It says on wind it up Wind it up have they? re-line cam gear and flat gears on cassette housing, red, idol and cleaned up I think the speed up Such delicate things Oh they are, much you can't bloody see what's happening can you? Oh it's a no I say thirty, we've had that either eight or nine years I can't re I can't remember which, that's cost us thirty five quid in eight or nine years Can't grumble No I said if we had a maintenance on it, maintenance was thirty odd quid a year, over eight years it would of cost us two hundred and forty pound Oh yeah these maintenance contracts are the lowest, I mean I took one out on my mum's C D player because they'd, they'd had trouble with it, er multi play, turns out it was the stack one they had trouble with not that one, but it was only thirty quid for four years I mean Well that Yeah, well I bought, I got the C D cheap enough, you know when I bought them that mini unit, that went just after a year, that bloody thing when it packed up, do you remember it was playing in night, in the middle of the night and my dad got up and said what pratt's playing music, it's his own ha That was lightning weren't it then? Well I do it probably was actually but it was the switch that had gone, maybe lightning had hopped across the switch, yeah, but erm, that's all it was it was the switch, but er, I mean the thing is it went wrong and they had to pay for it, okay it's only a tenner to have it done, but it, if a C D player, I mean if the carriage goes, you know, sixty, seventy quid, you know I'm buying these electrical things, it's, because it's a burg lock, I can buy them, get them a warranty with it an'all, then it's took the burden off them. My dad's pleased with the compact disc, erm, my dad appreciates a good sound don't he? Yeah Really pleased appreciates a good sound and puts that bloody crap on, ha What's he put on? Oh I don't know that stuff with, er I dunno, Acker Bilke or Mm When I first got it in the I was a bit, well it don't sound too hard, bit down hard, but then again they were in a rush, I said there's your present and I gave it to them, and they unwrapped it and me mum says oh come on we'll be late for the club, cos they were getting free drinks at the pub, oh she, she didn't even want to look at it, I said oh, and she looked at it To see and er me dad says ooh it's a video recorder and he, I says no it isn't, he says it is, it's a video recorder, I says it isn't dad, I said Christ I bloody bought it I says have another look, he says what is it? I said it's a compact disc player, mum says oh that's nice, she says what do they do? And I said, I said pour us a tea, oh she says we'll be late for the pub, I thought oh sodding hell Yeah so I says alright put it down She don't think and as you get, you get older they get worse Mm erm, don't, they just don't think cos our kids you know they'll have money erm, say they had money and bought them presents Mm and I think the lads they used to get them some chocolates or something, she says oh more chocolates I've got loads of them I know I bought Do you know it's and it what not since she's been owed They, they still remember that Oh aye and they, that was when they were kids and they still remember it It's not cos she's it, cos she's like that you know I bought her summat, when ours were not, not very old, I didn't know what to get her and I bought her an ornament, she says oh I wish people'd stop buying me ornaments I've got too many, has to dust round them I thought you'll get sod all next year I've had that, yeah and that you'll get bugger all yeah, I think our Julie bought her some talc, she said everybody's bought me talc and that, and our Julie said this year she don't know what to get grandma cos whatever I get her she says she don't want it She moans about it I know and that's, that's just it really she don't think does she? No, she bloody ought to after the first couple of dozen times, but anyway, when they come back and we got back at night and we started playing them and putting things on er you know they got to like it Yeah, that's it, my dad said it's a lovely, well it is That's right I wish I could get another one, it, I can't get one of them Oh same, the same as that, cos the idea was get two the same and I've got one contract, ha Mm I've thought guaran two machines you're guaranteed for four years then, cos they didn't write the serial number down, so if I got two machines and it goes faulty I just send it back and say this machine's faulty, they don't know how many I've got Mm. Morning young man Morning How are you? Alright, have you got it? how long? Five minutes Yeah, we've been to oh you've found it You say sometimes it comes on on line three? Line three, yeah no, not on this one So you've got yeah goes onto there Aha yeah The first thing to do is change the erm change the cos that, well I tell you what I think the first thing to do is do a system reset if that doesn't change the display decoder I think if that, yeah, if that don't work escalate it, because it's a loan problem, you've done everything you can then What about C P U? Change the C P U? Bloody hell, mm, well I'd escalate it because it's a known problem, they might come, turn back and say change the C P U. Well you know what you can do They're not they're not gonna do anything about it They're gonna ask if you've changed it Yeah they will yeah, well you can have a word with them first, you've got to have a word with them before you escalate any way Yeah but I, I think that's the erm but I mean that's the answer I, shouldn't I, that decoder's got to er It's got to be told something before it does it yeah Yeah , you'll, you'll hear that actually come in, if you disconnect one of those legs, if you disconnect that blue wire on there and then cease the intercom and put it back down again you know the relay clicking you'll hear it come in and go back out again, there you go So the twenty four volts is here permanent Oh yeah yeah yeah I say reset the system, do a system reset and then see how it goes, it's all, it, it er it's the main problem them, and there's no cure for it. We've spent months of shelving and then in the end he just says oh sod it, just took it out for an eight one six then. There is one other cure What's that take the bell off? What can you, I don't know if you ever, ever came across any of these er the mark two that want an extension and I think it would project a producing stuff Mm and it was er Oh acoustics Yeah, that would cure the bastard, cos it would only ring when this rang It would also ring if you pull a page out. What was it an amplifier with a speak on it? It's a little acoustic er coupler type What does it do sense a sound and then ring Yeah ring a bell or does it actually pour out of a speaker what comes out of a speaker? No it rings a bell Does it? Yeah So if I call a paging call out and a paging call comes out it's gonna ring the bloody bell Not necessarily I don't particularly want to get involved in anything like that Yeah but I tell you what you know the mark two, have you ever displayed a coder and it rings, rings the bell when the intercom rings, rings the bell if the trunk's designed to ring and all that, you know when you get the, you put a call on hold and it comes back and it goes brr, brr, brr, the bell starts going ding, ding, ding, a right noise and apparently that's standard in the system I think that was a bit of an oversight to be honest with you So the, it's not worth changing the data and the Not data to the no I mean change the data to the phone No I tell you it's wasting my time it's a known problem Say is there something on the data well whenever I've had this Clear this rubbish up Well you know the one at erm the environmental Mm the erm the displayed decoded it's actually mounted next to the kit and all we'll do is take twenty four volts out, volts out, they'll take the, take the data off the kit itself and then just bring twenty four volts out Yeah you know, maybe cos the signal's stronger now I don't know, but that's the way to do it there, well you've got to bring twenty four volts out anyway Oh yeah I'll get you can take it here or you can take it there, it's just that the, the displayed decoder is safer Mm, but what I can't weigh up is there's nothing wrong together in the first place found the twenty four volts Where is that? Across there through that gap The very, the very strays are where the wire goes, if you look at the drawing there a bit er, it actually comes in and out you know, one, one of them is actually the same, it actually just comes in and loops in and goes out again and you may find that you're actually on the same potential there, could be low potential and difference between the two that's all you need Something there there there it's them two, it looks like it could be them, with them round together Yeah, that's right So weird Oh very weird, yeah, I preferred I mean there must be some more, how many more lines are there, look, hang on then Well there you are end of the bloody wires are causing that then is there? Why? They say Say, say that is the bell Yeah mm and they're your data mm they're not paralleled off Oh they're not paralleled off It's a weird way of doing things, it's extremely, it's, it's weird, if you look at the drawing I don't even need to look at the drawing for this it's only six well to have to see take the bloody thing off Oh shut up moaning we've got, aha I'm going down to er Wellingborough in the next Wellingborough? Why what you gonna say? Your going to Wellingborough that's a bloody turn up for the books isn't it? I upset George the other day Why? He says well I, we were on about sort of and he says bring it up at the next meeting, I says I says what meeting's that? He says, the next regional meeting it's being held in Neesden he says you can go to that one can't ya? I says no I can't, he says it's not very far, I said it's not the distance that bothers me it's the fact that you want us to sit there till eleven o'clock at night and not get paid for it, he says yeah but if you want to say something, I says I'd say something if I thought we'd be backed on it, but we're not, oh I'm not going anywhere to be if I'm not being paid I'm not getting involved I didn't know Dick was er Bob, moving, er Dick 's is it? Yeah, cos he covers Derby, he lives in Calverton, he comes through Nottingham to get to Derby, I live in Nottingham and I just do Nottingham, I'm nearer to Derby than what he is, near as door bell, I think it's the way they've laid it out though Well they're trying to send it is they're trying to send me on on that what? well why don't you go? That's not on my patch like It's my patch, suit me here Well I did make do what company here never heard of it yeah well it did didn't it when the weather's like that There we are if you're gonna do that, I'll tell ya if you switch it off and switch it back on again if, if it's the problem I think it is it'll cure it, if it's which I don't think it is, it's the other one that's incurable Incurable It's incurable the reason I say it's incurable the system's too Eh? The reason I say it's, it's, the system's too old to go back to the Japs and say get this sorted out, rewrite the software because they're just gonna say not likely we haven't made it for ten years, or whatever seven or eight years or whatever it is, it's out of date, they're not gonna start working on the system that's that old all they'll want to do is to sell you a new one Yeah that's what we'll do are they overhead them cables? They're not are the oh they are, the end there bloody hell no I don't think it's in there, it's just description stuff, sizes and what have you maybe on the right section there, it's the one where you might wire the L J Us up as well, that's section, ah I think it is, that's it the one with the M B F to what's that? Station socket Right box extension belt there it is next page there you go hear that mate, it just goes in there look, and that, oh hang on a minute no it don't that goes to the bell, through the bell, back out again and then er Come out through the bell, back through the bell on to there and back to there That's right through this big that's right, so you'll probably only just seeing Yeah circuitry there and then there's your, your data which you, you do parallel off Yeah like a yellow and that just says ring, ring, ring that brings the lane and it just does that, that's that belt, all it's doing is taking it through them relay contacts Yeah mm I see which is why you don't see a voltage at the same leg really Yeah fucking weird though innit why it should suddenly start pulling like that That's the way they are, have, have you any extension, extensions put in? Tell you what it could be, ah hang on a minute, I ordered an extension for a bloody for a phone for that office, it could be the phone that's doing it in that office there I know, I know it could be corrupting, you know on the mark one the big one, the old generation mark one It's been going on for months Has it? Two or three months Oh two or three months Yeah, but it's got worse and worse Oh right, yeah and he said it's got worse since he got the new switchboard operator, which makes you think She's probably putting calls, she ain't cos we've tried it over there, you pressed intercom, put it down, it, it does that Shouldn't do that should it? No, I tell ya, there's about four in the company started doing it altogether, oh this is about the fourth one I think why that's what third told me I was talking to Brian day before yesterday, second line, he says there's loads of them doing it and it can't be cured Well all we can do then is reset innit? Yeah, let's do a system reset and you sure you put everything back together that end first Very careful, we'll do that when we get over there, ha Let me get me glasses it looks more like the Selby's one than the erm, than the environmental Oh, I mean cos the main environmental was er, it did it on its own, with a completely empty switchboard, no calls on five o'clock at night, everybody had gone home and the bloody thing would just sit ringing, ringing, ringing, ringing and erm I know this is only when the switchboard's busy Yeah, well you know this, this Selby's one that was the same, when the switchboard was busy it would er, if you, if you sees line three and played it down, well if anybody sees line three and played it down it used to do that or if you sees the intercom that did it, says it's more like the Selby's one than the new one Well I and that was incurable well that was only there If you see line three on You got the key? You've got it I ain't got the key I ain't got the key you had it You put it in your pocket I didn't you've got it Right then, what you got there for? better tell them first You tell them can we just switch the phones off for a couple of minutes, no, no calls on are they? Cheers, okay Dave give it a good thirty second bet you've got a screwdriver over there ain't ya? Got to put this one back together while we're waiting Oh What you got after this then, d'ya know? Dunno mm That one of Selby's you know it was fine until they put an extension in just er a key station as soon as they did that this one started acting up, so he said it's only since we did that, he said it happened the day after we put that in, I said okay, disconnected it, still did it, disconnected it at the, end here, still did it, erased it from the program so it didn't even know it existed, still did it yeah, I, er wait for the light to come back up have you connected it? Yeah, even connected it on the end here, the, the station and set this display decoder up and it even did it there so it was nothing to do with the live lamp wire, the way they routed it we thought that perhaps rerouted it to the cable or something like that Yeah nothing went round and unplugged every phone out, wedged every one out cos we thought it might of been a station that's going down, cos er I'm saying about the mark one, the old two sixty, if you've got a bad phone it used to drag the paging down for all others, where if you've got paint in the socket Yeah or a bit of mould in one of the sockets it used to click all the phones when anybody made a call and er, all, all sorts of things that, I would of thought ah there's a faulty phone somewhere and it's degenerating and er we went round and waste every single one out, every single one, went to this extension pressed line three, play it down and the phone rang, I thought right it's not a phone, I changed the cabinet, I changed all the cards and the cards in one big one, I had one three so it weren't interacting between the two, everything had changed and it still did it, were a new kit, got a cabinet of setting line, changed it and it still did it. Well it st I mean it's something stupid innit? Because the simple reason I even went in at seven in the morning when they've got no compressors going in case it was the compressors dragging the whatsit down because to me it's, it's something like that everything, it's gotta be the C P U innit? It's gotta be something telling that bell to ring That's right and you would think if you change every bloody thing out That's right whenever it was telling it to ring That's right to stop Yeah, well I got a kit there and I wir I wired, just put it on the floor and it light on the wall, had it all connected bang, bang, pull them erm, er wired them all up and still did it, that mine? Or yours? Yours Is it? Yours Yours Call one please ring Brian before ten thirty, it's ten twenty nine now so, oh bloody car phone It's like Selby must be decoder number right round here No find it next to the unit, next to the That's what I like you co , you depend on someone helping me out and Don't out on you Well I, I wonder if it does occur again, happen again Yeah do decode it it's hell of a run you know innit? I did that at Selby's, I had the decoder, the new cabinet, everything, I had the decoder there hanging on the floor like that, I wired it up and I pressed extension sixteen and away it went, it said four there and the display decoder was there about ten extensions And it was about ten, sixteen that was doing it I think it was sixteen yeah, fifteen or sixteen, I'm sure it was sixteen Aye you said, like you say it could be se but third lines that is something that'd happened all of a sudden, of about four throughout the cou , well three at the time throughout the country have suddenly gone like it within about a month or so of each other , and they've never had any trouble before, but I was talking to Brian and he said that's a load of cobblers, he says it's been doing it for a long time and there's loads of them doing it. Unless we and see what's been used Yeah well if, if I get called backed to it, or I'll change that display decoder first, I mean that's been reset now, forget that, er Aye yeah, well if you can get out o, f of that though You can Can you, what on eight three one? Oh dear I mean I figured it's gotta be something date, dated I feel Oh aye, yes cause it to do it Well I thought that, but er you know, that was my to do it, but then again that was in it all the time, you know, it just don't make sense funny how they're both garages weren't it? Mm in fact, eh I tell you what Over head all, yeah they're not, round the corner, all three garages is this is Selby's and there's erm, Selby's is Volkswagen repairer and er, oh no, yeah Lee invite it was in their garage where the lorry was. Of all the systems we've got three garages it's happened to, radio station I think that wants putting back together there Eh? If you want to ring Brian Cancel that will clear it up Put this one back together I thought you'd on we'll do a reset and see how it goes, and just leave it if it, if it clears it erm that's fine And if not I think the next thing actually is to move the decoder or change the decoder Change it, wow, bloody step That's three times you try to fall that, if you have an industrial injury Three steps to heaven that's what it is, kill myself next time Somebody said did you see the accident, no I ask did I have my eyes shut when I kicked him, er Free line now Yeah I just clear it er I don't like the idea of doing that actually Why? What using it for er without asking, it comes up on the er have er, I'll ask her first hello it's the G P G engineer love, yeah, er my pager's just gone off, is it okay to use my telephone just to answer it please? It is okay is it? Alright, thank you, ta O'Connors again O'Connors? Yeah Where's that? Yeah What's happened there? I haven't been there for over a, a year or more I think last time I was there On a tray there's service Is there? I had to put the phone down because of you Oh I do apologize profusely, profoundly whatever it is, no, no I was there when you bought it I know, I've gotta get a frame You've got a get another a picture, it's crap That's not a bad picture that Yeah, it's two-toned as well, it's green and blue Blue and green or is it just I can prove it's green and green because it's a quester two tone exterior with a so that roof's supposed to be green then and that on the top of the boiler is definitely not blue, even though they use blue ink for it That's definitely green cos it's got green on it right Brill news What? got a disco on March twenty eighth yeah it's not that I don't wanna do it, it's Not the people that book with you Yeah Yeah it's relatives Yeah and you feel obliged to them to have it for next to nothing I feel obliged to do it er for more No No, I've been saying they booked me about two months ago and I've been saying that they have a deposit mm Well tonight Mm one of the lads at work come up says there's a disco on March twenty eight and before I said I'm already booked, I said yeah, he says er how much do you charge, I told him and I says well if you let me have confirmation as soon as you can and a deposit of ten or fifteen pounds as soon as you can Yeah as soon as you know for definite That rides over the, the relatives it overrides them Yeah I'm gonna pass them on to one of the other bods at work Why does somebody else at work do a disco? One of the girls at work, her brother does them, er so it's got me out of it Yeah never get out of it Well I don't want to keep a date open for no reason at all and I mean say That's it, yeah the general yeah, if you tell them to say you don't want it you've had it ain't ya? Yeah You know our Wayne don't ya? We're back on line Testing right that one.. I've got excuse me I tell you what I like them, them Two boxes of chicken Yeah I know, a terrible oversight there, I've got erm you know them chicken nuggets that I get, have you seen them? Them cheapo ones from Wallis? Or they might be turkey ones, I go to Kwiksave you get thirty in a bag for about well just erm for a couple of quid I think, or you get twenty four in a bag, oh I don't know, you get something like that anyway yeah I think I'm gonna have to start eating some stuffing I thought the erm, I should, I should get it so erm tell you what I was in a bath this morning yeah You know what I mean Yeah no you didn't you said you were gonna leave it Oh yeah, that was it, yeah, yeah, muttered it under my breath as I walked out, yeah, I'll have to get in touch with that to say if got that erm yeah, yeah I say that amplifier was absolutely useless ha He says need another wire Who says a what, a chap at work? Yeah Well we can get an extension lead, mind you it's alright you it's not the same is it? You may find that's a moulded plug and it, no that end trigger, is it a variable speed trigger? No Oh I was gonna say I bought a variable speed trigger for mine cos its back up it erm But sometimes when you're using it it don't quite work Yeah, mine, like that Ha, see what he means it's a switch Is it? told him it might need a new switch Yeah, well that's why a switch, a switch on mine, so oh no the cable didn't come I says to him be prepared for a bill said I don't mind paying for one, but My last one was eight pound summat but mine's a variable speed reversible and all that About four quid there's no slow start on the reverse I got it while I was working in Leicestershire so I couldn't really take it back it'll cost me more in petrol mm what, I didn't, did you call special on Sunday? Why? Well Les says er when we got out the car and you went he says bloody hell that uses some juice don't it? I said well he reckons it does, he says when he filled up at the garage it were full, he says we hadn't got back and it was between the half and three quarters, I said oh I never looked at it Yeah Is it really that thirsty? Does about twenty, twenty three to the gallon What on a motor like that, no surely not must Right do more at the speed I was doing it keeps it to that, if I'd of kept it to fifty it would of been a lot more You what, well come on we were only doing fifty on the way back Yeah, weren't on the way there though I know seventy minimum on the way there Do you think it's worth it though for what you get out of it, well I mean you obviously do, you like the car don't you? I like it, er pulls the looks, it don't pull the birds but it yeah, yeah, soon I'll call you logo he went running yeah what is it? A bit of a funnel saucepan? oh you're deep frying them are you? Deep frying is a lot actually is a lot better than shallow frying Mm cos it seals the food as soon as you put it in Does it? Yeah So you don't get so much fat in it, yeah I'll have to get a deep fat frying pan then, for all the fat Oh it's true for all the fried foods I'm not no that's what I mean yeah, I've, I mean I ain't got for all the u fatty foods I eat I fry pasta, deep fat one, deep pan, oh I don't know, you know what I mean yeah switch that's gone, it's proving it cos it's a bastard Well you, if it's intermittent an'all put This the toggle fish on to use for a week if it cures the no I'll get a longer lead as well for it Mm about five metres of wire, is that long enough? What powers the drill? is it? Oh I, I had one of them oh would blow off wouldn't it? What is it? yeah, it's says low on it oh number, three thousand and under, one point eight amp, four hundred watts Yeah expect it to be that thick then Yeah,thing is getting them wires out Oh screws from under the side Fuck off What, what you on about? Oh brilliant Don't you know how to do them? Mine, mine was mine was erm if you've got screw contacts on it, mine have well to say that these er these switches are so unreliable you'd expect it to be erm these be a bit user friendly, cor blimey, just cut it about all things down and put a chocolate strip in, plenty of room in the handle Oh really You really want that one off though don't ya? Did he say he wants a as well? Yeah It's a bit of a pain int it? Seven or eight years Oh I tried it for her That's alright then er, I'll put a new switch on and wire, it ain't the wire at all it's the switch Mm have to double that, cos when you wiggle the wires here what it is when you wiggling the wire you're moving the thing contact, I said if you wiggle the wire it's alright it's sort of coincidental Mm it might actually just be breaking the wire there Maybe, just remake it I can't get them out, you can see it's struggling Usually is the wire Not on them it isn't, it's usually the switch Eh? It's usually the switch What on these? Yeah I dunno I think my jig saw went, that was the wire, I just cut it off and made it off again and it was alright it's short enough so it don't go through the window when you throw it Break the window to get the bloody wires through it's what? Where to get the ideas for the lamps and that Just what it is, it's these modern new they're not that bloody brilliant Mm, I can still remember Ann's face now, oh this bloody thing, got it and threw it, no, no Yes it just stopped short of the window, well no it was quite short you know, you could just see it aiming for the window, luckily it was plugged in It stopped it dead it stopped it dead in its track, yeah, couldn't get to rewire it after it though it snapped it a little bit. Yeah, just rewire it up, just try it for er, you know, I mean it failed straight away, if it don't fail within half an hour then your er you know what it is, save yourself getting a switch. Yeah, scrub the switch up that'll do for a change, paint it black inside the hose thing. cos if it's not the wiring, the switch is alright won't be able to what? Won't be able to get the why? a brand new blade, if working on something and working away not minding my own business Mm working away Yeah Oh did I laugh me just about done with these Oh and I thought there were a couple of speakers Oh, don't know where they're from no not really, not proper stand over here no I'm gonna turn the fan on, oh Jesus Christ mm and it always has the same thing Yeah must be want what they swallowed it and they're swimming round Oh shit Zoom, zoom, zoom What time is it? Half past seven, what d'ya reckon then do ya? have you teletext? Yeah Oh I don't know how you work that Just press a button go on and says you wouldn't mind my telly just happened to mention in the night says I'd like a white telly you know, go a bit more with, with the decor a cream, yeah, a cream telly you know, oh I'll have that one he says when you sell it, oh Christ almighty, I thought I was, excuse me perhaps I, I would like a teletext one, just get, you know I don't want, I'm not sort I don't like the colour, I'd rather see a white one in the corner Mm get a white telly with teletext, you know I suppose I could put that one in the bedroom yeah, yeah oh dear eh? Oh that's sunken there innit, yeah don't think there's yet an empty seat They've got people standing on top an'all Yeah look at that right down to the water line though innit? Yeah Them on the bottom they're bound to get their feet wet aren't they? Mm These countries are amazing aren't they, they're so in the cities and yet Mm out in the wild Mm, oh, aye look at that oh can you imagine waking up to that, well probably wake up blind Yeah tossed over a few times in the night, burnt me eyes out yeah, yeah I'd like to visit somewhere like that you know Do what? I dunno, as you say to see the culture things like that but it's a bit difficult to put niggers down in their own country well what's that then, is that, is that just the ferry between an island or something Look for this boat it doesn't even stop, blimey Amazing int it you get something like that and it'll go forever Mm Blimey is that the a bit wicked innit? Did you hear that? Yeah Can you imagine if they got cholera on that what was that boat that got cholera on it, it wiped them out, not the Mary Celeste was it? no mm I reckon pirates had a go at that you know Makes you wonder don't it? Mm What's he travelling all that way for that, he could of gone to Doddington market, get the same effect couldn't ya? Same thing both selling rubbish Eh? Get out you're not getting on that boat, look at it Oh god Oh no wonder you say there's us like eating cockles I suppose as the French eating snails int it? Mm Same sort of thing Hello there man, of course I'm awake, I'm eating my tea, ha you're wrong, Russell's organizing his night so that he's gonna pick you up half eight quarter to nine okay well I, I ain't had a shower or anything yet, I mean er everything's organized I organized it all for picking you up eight quarter to nine, bless you, what's your number? Oh what I'll do when I'm ready I'll give you a bell which means it'll be what ten, fifteen minutes from then to picking you up Oh that's it Alright, see you bell in a bit, ciao I thought that was floating then, but it's an island, the way their camera was moving it looked like the old grass was moving, oh that's a nice boat yeah They have to pay as well? Oh they talking to one of these receptionists today and she says erm she's been trying to get a bit of erm, she's split up with her husband, trying to get, a bit of extra money together, you know, to be, she's got her own house like, buying her own house and all this and that she's fell into a bloody modelling job and saying get yourself a passport and er on about sending her off to either the South of France or Kenya Yeah Yeah so she's er instead of just earning herself a bit of money she ain't done bad has she? Mind she's dead smart dead smart Well there's a thing going round a few years ago weren't there with these models, just pay for them to go out there Yeah and just keep them on meagre wages and then they'd have to subsidize themselves or Oh, no oh no it's not like that, it's a proper model agency in er, in Nottingham, it, it sounds above board, well I've heard of the, the lass that's running it actually, she's an ex page three girl, she's er very good, you know, from what I've heard it's erm, it's a reputable agency and er, yeah the ones of the sharks doing that, but er, she ain't one of them thing is she doe she Everybody wants to yeah, yeah, including English women er, what's he doing with that bird, he still, what's he doing?oh I don't believe it, he's got an AIDS problem and he's shaving a, oh god yeah, that's true it does show ya that it can grow though don't it, not the hair I mean AI AIDS you know if you shave somebody head and got AIDS and you shave his head, he cuts them both, that's it, two people's got AIDS just like that. That was an antelope with his arse weren't it? Which one? That was were they just got all aboard Yeah You can't get many of them out of sea surely I thought they're trading people that's coming up as well Oh that one isn't dead yet is he? That one is good god the size of that one that must be still alive oh look at that look yeah er I could tell that was still alive that pig Mm I can't stand to see people being cruel to animals it absolutely appals me, it does really, I feel like to take an axe to them Mm I feel like I'd, I could take an axe to them oh look at that look oh dear, probably seen his mother butchered ah see that big fat body just then a pair of feet I thought it was his, did you see that? Mm I thought cor blimey it's a wonder he can walk look at that you wouldn't believe that today would you nineteen ninety two oh no wonder they all come over here, is so really, can't blame them if that's the sort of quality of life they've got Sorry we should never of let them in first Well there'd ought to of been more control but apparently now, you know how the Indians come over here, all the time don't they? Yeah You try and get to India, not that you'd want to go mind you, you try and live in India, won't let you in Mm No, you cannot get to India from what I've heard, you cannot get in Well I see this thing in the paper Well the only reason you want to get out of here is to get out of the way of Indians Yeah full of white man over there Yeah that's it cos they're all over here See if you can find a tickatape reading machine for a a tickatape reading, what er, er a telex type thing? Yeah Yeah I've got have ya? Really love it, it is racist I'm not racist You, I tell you you'll love it Me? Yeah I can't stand bigots, racist bigots, especially black'uns no I tell ya if you can, if you know anywhere that's got one Mm it'll look yeah, er that's not many of them these days is there? Aren't there? I tell you what the biggest racist are the black, black, not so much the blacks, are the Asians Yeah They're terrible, they really are, not all of them Oh I know but them who are, are really bad Yeah oh when I went to that You know a lot of people erm, you're not, they to acc accept them to what they are I'm the same, I'm, I won't prejudge But when they start coming Yeah that's right and start calling you behind your back cos you'll find out Yeah mm a bit like I say when I went to that dentist surgery at er Leicester Mm last year I couldn't believe my welcome, they're coming out and apologizing are you alright to wait, you know, he's, he's got dentist in the surgery and oh it was amazing I know, I was I went up for some chips at the top Yeah and er and I says to him that's one thing you never get at that, that one at Top Shop What's that? well she says like, I won't be a minute I could see what she was doing, I won't be a minute, I think she knows what I go in for Yeah it ain't very often I go in for something other than chips and not have chips as well you know Chips and chips? Well you know like fish and nothing else Yeah , yeah says oh I'll not be a minute yeah so he starts, you don't get that sort of thing that one, the Big Shops Yeah you, you're there and they just ignore you Yeah Mm and she were telling me the guy that runs it won't let them talk to the customers, said that was pig ignorant surely owns it? I thought he owns them all No don't own that one at Top Shop Don't he? No Oh I thought he did, are you sure? I reckon he does you know But when you go go into this one yeah they're nice and friendly aren't they? Yeah You walk in and just like er, they're always talking to you And he won't let them talk to the customers? At that one at the Big Shops, the guy that ru okay it might be the guy that runs it not the one that owns it Yeah I'm sure owns it won't let them talk Yeah he won't let them talk, it's disgusting, I tell ya, you know, no end of times I've been in there and it's obvious we're waiting for chips Yeah to cook and they won't say Anyone who don't want chips Something like that Yeah on top of as well, we've just put them in they'll be about five minutes or whatever Yeah I mean what does it cost, no, no end of times I've just Yeah walked out with it's unreal Do you know the bloke , do bloke, do you know the bloke who owns it then? Have you seen him? No, it's, when I was talking to these Yeah this other chappie Yeah you know the top one out the two Yeah, you don't know if he's Greek then? He's some foreigner thing, but they were saying they don't allow them to talk to the customers that's it, you don't talk false stop, no hows, whys or whatever, you don't talk Tell him cobblers Yeah I don't go though I won't, I wo I won't erm I won't go in the shop even with where there's ignorance I've even considered reporting it to the health people Why is it bad? It can be Can it? Oh he don't look very pleased with something does he? Want to nail him to the fence you should think he's not yeah, yeah he had them all panicking Their captain's making it difficult for them on the blower Yeah Did you see that?he nearly shot himself in the butt that time didn't he? He's in a rush to get somewhere ain't he? Yeah he's had a big is that what it is? Oh it's a definite to the side, oh that's his canoe there Oh I don't know why he just doesn't turn the boat so the current was too much for the it is innit? Yeah yeah did you not know that? I learnt something about it in the past yeah You know when you're fishing Yeah boil ham Yeah throw it down as ground bait Yeah sends the fish high Does it? Yeah oh I've heard of them, yeah, but I know this Pre-boil it Yeah rinse the stuff out, and just throw it in and you're away Oh I wonder if you grind it up and smoke it in a pipe with tobacco, would it have the same effect? I don't know I bet it would eh? I used to use them when I was fishing Yeah didn't boil it though did you? Mm, mm can't remember, I di didn't go for long yeah, we was talking about them today actually as a mat as a as a coincidence we er, we own that creepy crawlies and dragonflies Oh it didn't look like it was making a hundred miles an hour anyway No What happens if that engine blows up? Yeah, well it goes downstream then don't it? Goes back to the fisherman and they just er done the dirty on Yeah got one job all day today, oh yeah Got a good day then? Good day, yeah well I was in Beeston all morning preparing it, there's a programme on well I used er technical supports, workshop, went in there grab my and dashed out and fitted it, complete waste of bloody time mind you cos er we've got the own software back in now, well actually the latest releases of it, we were going back a release because er we were having trouble, but it turns out it's not our problem external problem so, put three dot seven back in. I can see it, blimey where's that from? Did it? What for? What really? Yeah You could use that couldn't you? You, you, you have two don't you for a sub base or just, you just have one do ya? One yeah Cos it's not, it's non-directional ain't it base? What, what it is on that one you've got this speaker right and it goes down to really low frequencies especially right, oh you've got to have a special sub base speaker then? Well it ain't gotta, it ain't got to be a sub base one, it's a base speaker Mm, bigger then You know , you know that padding that you put on the car you know that stuff on the doors inside? Mm, yeah You put two squares of that and stick on to the cone You're joking and it slows you down, and it goes in out and like that Blimey well you could have them on your A speakers and then have yours, just play your surrounds couldn't ya if you wanted to do it that way if you want really Yeah but you'll lose, you'll lose oh of course you are yeah, yeah oh just like that and hi-fi speakers and hi squire, hi-fi speakers Hi squire be hi squire speakers Anyway something beginning with S Yeah, all sorts like that Yeah and there's one it's supposed to be erm a pretty good unit Yeah and it only had one over all the speaker Oval? Electrical? Was it? Yeah on a four amp speaker that's it well we're not talking again, sub base No, no these are speakers on Really, new ones? Well not new ones out all sort of catalogue in them Mm computer, yeah yeah I thought about, about that amp you know Did you get it? Oh, eh Have you tried it out? Oh yeah Do you make a hundred and fifty watt speaker? Ha, was it? Sixteen hundred Well the ones I'm running are twenty five watts What's the, what's forty, twenty five watts or less, forty watts nominal the ones I'm running not through a hundred watt channel, er Now we went, we went to er to No it's just after the just before Christmas Right, okay then Angela, about six o'clock then Ain't you got the ones? Yeah Okay then Yeah see ya, ta-ta he says he says yeah about a hundred and forty quid the pair The pair? The pair Yeah and they erm say a hundred and forty watt Handling yeah there's, yeah, yeah that's not bad then, you said they sounded alright didn't you? Sounds did they? And when he sat in here like they've got like two glass doors Yeah yeah He's got two of them that go in to his next room Yeah and then he got it up the back that far You can hear it and he got it turned up a bit and sounds bloody from the other room Yeah and then we get in the doors well you know what I've done with mine erm, just temporarily, I'm trying to find out to speaker position, eh? Put big resisters on it Big resisters yeah, I just don't turn it up very far, it's, it's, it's lovely, it really is, it's well worth the money Yeah and er I've put er, you know how my room's, the fire's there and I, I had erm sort of either side of the fireplace didn't I, but one Yes was in the back room cos of the size of the fireplace and one in that corner but they're in the way, that was only temporary while the house is upside down and I've put two yeah, yeah, put them upside down and the house will be the right way round, I've put one either side of the patio door and sort of based them slightly inwards on the floor to get the maximum bass response, I understand in that room it's brilliant, it's absolutely su boom, boom Yeah but what happens when you come down the other end? As soon as you walk through the archway, I mean you'd expect it to be an open You'll lose it You lose it Yeah Well you'd lose it Could you get, you know when I said it, you know when I said about It must hit the wall and bounce off did I, did I ask you about that erm when Dave lighting on the ceiling, he's got four speakers and I said look what, what's happening is the, the sound from that particular sound from that mm It does work that does cos I've, I've read about it in one of the books Oh yeah, it's like wiring your speakers back to front as well Mm erm, getting the wrong, your, your, your bass response just goes it cancels out cos one's pushing and pulling, the other's pulling and pushing, vicious Yeah, I've got a design for a set of speakers upstairs and do, I think it's three way like that Yeah and it's, it's got the box the design of the box will interfere yeah I tell you what there's been about four or five different types of that is there? Yeah, you've got one where you get bass reflex Yeah right and then you've got an infinite backing where you got speakers there like that and then you got a board behind that and then one behind that and behind that That's right yeah, yeah you know, there's another one, another, another type of back is This is all for bass is it? No it's all for speaker's cabinets Mm, mm it's easily when the computer program is it and all the generator the sills mm an amplifier, a multimeter Yeah you know, and you stick it on, you know, like it shows in the circuit, and then whatever reading you get that's yeah whatever that is, I dunno yeah work out and you can put all the information in to the computer Yeah bloody hell, yeah, my box in, I think my speaker boxes are glued together, you can't get at erm Are they vacuum sealed though? It wouldn't surprise me Because it, it, it turns to the, you don't lose so much bass in the back Yeah, if it's vacuum sealed yeah Yeah cos in, well I don't suppose it could be vacuum sealed it would rip all your wouldn't it? Yeah I suppose it would wouldn't it, if it tries to come forward yeah, yeah But you don't get any as your bass come out your yeah, yeah, you don't get the sort of, when your speaker's on loud you get a lot of sound coming out the back Yeah, but it's very, it's well, can, I don't suppose it can be, I might of had one of the speakers out but I know there in the back of the speakers, you had this loft insulation it's full of that Yeah it's like white stuff No it's yellow, it's yellow Wadding Yeah like wadding yeah yeah there's a lot of different designs you can't move the back of these Can't ya? you've got to take the speakers out the front Mm to get, you know, to get inside I can't get in my back or front Oh can't you get your speakers out? I can't remember now, I know I've had a go to have a look at them to see how, to see exactly how, cos what I thought, what I thought I was gonna do was, I didn't like the furniture of the, of the speakers and when I was keeping that system I was gonna remount the speakers in the box a bit more you know decorative but erm, you know, I remember as coming across one or two obstacles and I couldn't get in to it I thought if I'd tried a bit harder, I didn't want to start you know so I've been thinking about convert these speakers this time Mm because you only sort of need to buy one set of speakers Mm move the cabinets and if they're no good just cut them up and throw them away Yeah you know, but, one of them it shows you inside the side view of the cabinet Yeah right, and you've got your speaker there, and you've got your coming down like that, but in the corner you've got a piece of concrete Concrete? and ceramic tiles set on it You're joking Eh? All in the, all in the book Oh ceramic tiles set in it like that Yeah Well that's the sound lock Oh yeah, but perspex in the speakers so you can see through them But the of perspex is not the right material for the, for the box is it? Not really because mm, wouldn't sound right though, you wouldn't get the cor correct type of resonance out of it mm, I don't know I think a lot of the sound travels through the wood, I think that's all part of it, you know, I don't think you'd have very good erm quality out of to be honest with you You know them, you know them little tubes that you put in mm, I've seen them on the front that's all yeah, mm things like that, they've a plastic tube in them, I is it? Yeah really but it's the right size This is it you see, I mean a, a company like or have gone to a lot of trouble to get that length right, er and to tune the box and all this that and the other and get the right, I don't know maybe er just think oh you know you just build this, put this massive speaker in and call it a sub based woofer Mm you know, you don't know what the qualities gonna be like, it's alright getting one for fifty quid Yeah if it's decent, but if you've got a decent system and you've got a crap you're really wasting your time having one Yeah I know Yeah cos I've seen a sub based they're over three hundred pounds and there must be a difference is it? Yeah Well, rather pay a bit more and get one that's good Yeah, I mean that Kenwood's got, he he says it looks nice as well yeah You can't actually see the speakers Mm he's got Kenwood words written on it and a great big diamond on the, at the end Mm, yeah,ma maybe with a W Yeah with a W That's right yeah that it's made out, yeah does it? Yeah Yeah and that's, that's what two hundred quid? That's two hundred quid Yeah, but I tell you what about then I says to him I went to him and says erm about the stamp thirty one hundred, he says erm Well I wouldn't do it, I'm not stupid enough Oh he says I can get you one, I said I want to hear it first Oh aye he said oh it's not rigged up, there's no plug on it, there's no speakers attached to the back, I says well when can you get rigged up? He says I'm coming New Year's Day, alright, he went down and he shut it, cos I went in the shop and I says er hang on I thought you was open New Year's Day? I were, ah I says I came here at quarter past two, place was all shut up what time did you go, I can deal with the manager and she was the manageress, he's the assistant, er, er, er, I says oh dear have I dropped you in it? I paid you till four o'clock, I thought oh no er and he says do you want one? I says I want to listen to it, you know, I said I've heard it with C D going through it with about four sets of speakers, but I want to listen to it through eight sets of speakers with cassette, a cassette that I like to make sure, to my type, he says I guarantee you now you will like it, he says you will like he says, he says we do a ten day er return thing, he says you buy something, he says you bring it back within ten days undamaged we'll give you money back if you don't like the quality of the sound, for whatever reason we'll give you your money back. yeah, yeah when, when I went in to work the other day, Pete says I don't know about that, that Kenwood stuff Oh too hot says er they do C D player Yeah and amp and a set of speakers it's about three hundred and odd quid and it's er Samsung and it's supposed to be one Mm of the best you can, the best sound you can get Really? three hundred pound Mm I thought well no be a bargain for somebody Yeah this one, look at the back, I think the reason it's so big is to go in on the sockets at the back, put, you can put two tapes on it Yeah C D, two video recorders through it, why you would want to put er the video recorders through an amp I don't know, but you can have that Moving out Oh I wouldn't let them drive me out Eh? I wouldn't let them drive me out would you? I don't you can, you can probably get better ones than, than white labels Yeah Yeah they keep themselves to themselves That's right, they're always personable you know, they'll always speak to you Aye Aye Even they're not always a problem though lived on his own Well I mean look at mine I've got white neighbours and you don't get noisier than them pleasant enough, you know, but it's just everything you've done, you know Sat here and oh god I've had enough of this, so I went round, knocked on the front door,win curtain went back like that, she went What? so I went round the back Oh dear knocked on the door Jim said er Jim fancy her does he? he was, he was sportsman happy, he was out on well that'd be going round the block wouldn't it? used to go, used to go for runs didn't he? Well , well you do anyway when you see them on telly and they're all hanging round the, you know, the, the A N C meetings they all go up and down like this I think they do that in their sleep, I don't think there's a get used to it yeah Yeah poor thing knocked on the door I said eh can you turn this music down, my kid's asleep, oh right, oh and he went and turned it down Yeah went in then Well that's it and then we waited till next morning when they were all fast asleep you know and mm didn't go to bed about five in the morning yeah then you start drilling and sawing hammering and banging one night especially, especially trying to do a bit of up against the wall Yeah Yeah we had, we had hammer drilled the blunt bit Well they were knocking one night well gone twelve, about twenty to one I think it was, still banging and hammering, and I'm sure if I rang him and said look you know pack it up this, he'd, he'd say oh I'm sorry yeah and he will, but you shouldn't have to do that No they should have that's right I've always ain't I when I've done summat, if I've been sawing or banging, making a noise I've always stopped at ten Yeah that's, I think that's a reasonable time He didn't only did that cos you lost your temper did you hear us last night? I said did you hear us, she said mm but when I did this, I did this Cor blimey that goes in one ear when I did this there were no there were nobody next door Yeah were there that side Yeah then I bothered? No I mean sometimes you could sit here and their music on Mm Or you'd be The thing, the thing I like about it is with, with blackies and things like that when they turn it up all they do is boom, boom Yeah when you've got white people next door at least you can hear the music You can hear the er I don't mind that I Yeah like, I'd turn the telly off and listen to their music sometimes Mm I don't mind the Beatles Don't like the Beatles, though I like the blackies between, between two slices of bread How's your telly? is it alright? Oh brilliant, yeah brilliant no problem Have you tried them both together? Yeah both work yeah Great Wicked, watch Ian, Ian Botham first time in my life Er you watched that er Jack Nicholson thing? Yeah What The Shining? No Oh really got this program upstairs, I didn't tell you about it did I? Mick come down on Saturday, you know Mick Mick? Big Mick Big Mick Mick and Ricky? No just Mick Not Mick and Ricky? No it's just Mick now Right Ricky has left, she went off with a bloke ten years younger than her Really? Yeah You're joking Not she was more like a bloke I like I can get on with him you could get on with Ricky she's a good listener oh really, yeah Anyway he come down and he got this box with disks in I thought he was gonna say he's got a belly computer, computer disks Computer disks yeah and he just come in and he just sort of put them down like that, put the books next to them like that and never said nothing, so I never said nothing to them about them anyway computers and that and er he left it and he just carried on talking about this that and the other, and he says right I'm going and he went and he left the game, he'd brought it down for the kids, he didn't say, you know had their computer nicked yeah, yeah it's Nick and Eddy's He's goodhearted that way he gave it them and never said owt, you know what I mean he just says oh there's a Ninja in there and Batman and this that and the other and left them Yeah there's, there's a program in there it's called Auto Ring you put Oh yeah yeah put, put put them in seen that we use that put this program in and you swap it for this er map disk, then it comes up, you tell it where you are, where you going to and it works your route out Yeah it gives you about three or four erm individual routes, don't it? It gives you the fastest route Shortest by road Shortest route Yeah and an intermediate route Yeah or in some cases you get two intermediate routes Mm and it tells you how far away it is, how long it should take you to get there to get there, yeah, you can put the time of day in as well can't ya? You can tell it what time you wanna set out Yeah you can also tell it what you I think it also works out the, the traffic load Yeah you can also, you can also Amazing work out if you want to avoid a place, you can put, say, say you're going from Mm or you can go by say from here here to Corby or something like that Mm where you go, you go through Leicester more or less wouldn't you? Yeah And you can just put down Nottingham to Corby avoiding Leicester Yeah and it says break and you can put out all your stops going in Mm you know you stop for twenty minutes, put twenty minutes, and you, you just press return and it throws a map up, a map of part of England Mm where you are That's it goes like that and puts all the numbers in Mm and then you can zoom in on it closer Yeah that's it you can move the arrow around can't ya, the arrow moves Yes and you can move the arrow and the cursor, that's it an arrow and a mouse you just hit it and it expands that bit Yeah you can zoom into it, you can zoom out from it, then you can put more detail in it, put more little places in around it and you can That's it, yeah where, where you are and that I think Gordon's got one, we use one at work though, yeah it's, yeah yes it's very good and then you just print it out and what you do instead of, instead of in the map with a, with a drawing like that Mm you, you get to the text one as well? Yeah Where it tells you you're at Yeah that's it Nottingham and That's it you have to walk so and so for three miles Yeah that's it Yeah Often my that's it, yeah, yeah, you can give it to the driver then can't you? Yeah Mm I was just wondering how on earth your supposed to get to the M one heading towards er Bramford I mean no Cockbrave, everywhere you go from here is towards Cockbrave Is it? Yeah I like, I like that, I like the idea of it telling you how far it is Yeah Lovely Yeah you know it's if you put twenty minute break in then does it tell you which is the best cafe to stop at and how much egg and chips cost you? and what you can do is if you've got a yeah you can go and say er Nottingham, Grantham, Grantham to Lincoln, Lincoln to Newark and it'll tell you the, the route between each town Yeah like that you see, if you get to Lincoln you've done that one Yeah go down here, down here, down here you see it Mm, very good, yeah, I was spellbound when I first saw that, saw that about, I think the first time about three years ago how, how long did it take Mick to sort it out? Sorry? How long did it take Mick to sort a route out? Erm, it all depends, it looks erm On that one it sort of leaves a disk, it's got like a bar underneath Mm and as it's checking the list for the roads in the town That is I think that is it, it cuts down like that, then it goes off then it starts again, then it goes off and then goes that's it yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm vaguely recalling it now because it was six months ago since I saw Mick's but er, yeah that sounds about right Mm I can remember something about that eight hundred and forty eight miles Really? fourteen hours and something Good lord that's without a break Yeah, well he's, when he first says to me he says right he says er, this was when I first got an inkling that he was gonna check the mileage you know like for the future, and it says erm, where do you wanna go to? I says er when was it, he says where do you wanna go from? I says Scotland, he says where? To Nottingham, where do you wanna go by? I says Dublin he says I can't it's gotta be in Geordie then he says erm he says well where do you wanna go through? I says well Blackpool then, did all the routes you know, tell you all the routes that you can take for you know, and that took what fifteen seconds, twenty seconds or something to work that out, maybe there's not a lot to er alternatives Usually has a C C that's it er yeah but the thing is learners can't use motorways, er they want something to, wish to avoid motorways I think there might be yeah Yeah I ain't had a proper look I just put it on and said, work a few routes out you know where it Yeah where you're going, I mean I did Nottingham to Peterborough, how long did it take Nottingham to Peterborough? Hour fifteen under An hour and eleven Yeah one hour and eleven minutes it said on there that's from door to door Yeah will do, yeah It'll take me fifty minutes Did it? Yeah, but I mean I think this is sticking to us I tell you another option, tell you another option you've got in it, you can put down your G T I as well you can go in a G T I What's that? I don't know the difference that makes but it's got an option, something like erm Well it's for time int it, obviously normal normal car Yeah you know van, lorries and stuff like that but, but the thing is if, if the traffic's gonna be heavy, if it thinks we're gonna get stuck in traffic, if you've got a G T I you're that type of driver you've got that type of power, you can sort of pass and save a bit of time Yeah so maybe it's, yeah, it's a good idea though yeah Yeah have you seen those things like, like these it's like an L C D screen between the one with the, with the, with the map spins on the side of the road? The one It's a screen about this big right and you put it on your dashboard and plug it in to your cigarette lighter and er it's like a control centre and if there's been a crash Mm on the roads and if there's road works or summat, the section on, it's got all the major roads Mm and this section on your L C D flashes and you can like and you can zoom in and it'll say blah, blah, blah, road works at such and such avoid, or something like that Mm I know they did you had it, you had it on your dashboard like that, you know like a map Yeah and what happen was you had like a, a receiver in your car and all the information was transmitted from, transmitted from like on lamp post Yeah and if you was, it says like he, you going to Oxford, if you went to Oxford and you come to such and such a way and you're going out towards Ipswich and the big roundabout there was Mm you know solid or there's been an accident it tells you there's an accident at, at this point Mm and this is your alternative route and gives you an alternative way to go round to get passed it Yeah I'd seen an accident the other day in town I'd seen two and did you notice they knocked the bridge down What bridge? Er not the bridge the er the gates to the Embankment have you seen that? Yeah I have Yeah seen the state Did you? What, what was the thing about that? What happened? I dunno I just, I was coming in at dinner time and there was a, a double decker bus with all its front smashed in, the wall fell over Mm, apparently the guy that was driving it had overalls on, so he may have been a mechanic delivering it to somewhere or test driving it over there yeah Yeah then I went, I went into town a bit later on, come down Manstral Road and there was like a load of traffic there and I got to where the traffic lights are just before you get to the big turning at Manstral Road Mm do you know where I mean? Mm And there was a single decker bus then, right, stopped in the middle of the road and there was an Escort and he'd gone under the back right up to his windscreen like that the back Really? the back of the bus was right at his windscreen like that Aye, cos they're quite high aren't they at the back, them Fords ain't they? Yeah, and it was right up to his windscreen Good god just look, the windscreen weren't broke Yeah but the back of the bus was level with it like that Yeah, you know these short dump trucks, the little stubby things, I saw one of them once erm, at the junction of Avenue Street and erm, well outside Lynn's there Mm and there was this dump truck sort of about two foot out, he'd obviously changed his mind and sort of had er stopped, had a Reliant Regal, you know a Reliant Regal it was right up to the windscreen and there was a pile of glass in, you know everywhere it was Tell you what and that was that was done right underneath this lorry on the, on the way to work one morning when I was, I was at I went, I used to go into town, past that grey garden up, up Forest Road Yeah and then turn left and you're down towards Icing Green, do you know where I mean? And you come out near that new No, you went from it's called Mount Eaton Road Mount Eaton Road I know yeah Yeah that's when you, when you come up that yes to the lights Yes yeah oh I was instead of turning round coming the wrong way on the wrong road, yeah if you go up and going straight on up the hill You come along Ladford Road Boulevard, that's with the bed shop on the corner Yeah Straight up there straight on, past Camby and Sand Yeah up to the lights Yeah and then you come up and turn left at the florists Yeah, the right go straight up go straight up the hill Salvage Street Salvage Street is it? Yeah are the one I was coming down there, right Yeah and I just got through the traffic lights first thing in the morning and there was two light I couldn't believe it both of them and they'd smashed into each other Really? and there were bits of fibreglass all over the street Oh and two halves of car like laying on the side. Yeah Incredible, I, I could never believe that, two They into each other, cos they do don't they? Eh yeah Rick's er, Rick's car broke down you know and, and van broke down and somebody he, he, he lived in Clifton and worked at Radcliff on Trend and somebody says to him oh you can borrow our car it was a Reliant Regal, eh he said oh god, you know, I'll have to park it round the corner, and he got out, didn't go into work, you know go to work every day where erm yeah, no problem, and he says when you're driving along he says people flashing me, he says you see a head a pair of headlights flashing you think, it's not, it's another Reliant Regal some other bloke with a cap on you know you know, one enthusiast club We had a bit of fun er not last Saturday the Saturday before didn't we? We went bowling, he, come across he says Oh I, yeah, yeah haven't a car he says oh can we go in your car tonight he says mine's er, the alternator's gone Yeah and you have to push it to start it like, I says yes alright then, I knew the timing was out on mine so I thought I'd do that this afternoon Mm before we go, so I'm out there just set the timing then all of a sudden it went, but you know like kids give it a shove, pushed it on the street so turned it round and come back, this bloke pulls up in this er well three, three litre super job was it? Yeah Yeah J reg weren't it, jumped out, wanna push? Yeah alright then, got down about ten yards it started again Yeah got it home and what it is, is the timing on the car probably cos it's so old Yeah is a lot further up er what it says in the book, no way near them Yeah you can't set it by the book so I just, you know Till it sounded right Mm that's it That's it, I do till it peaks without pinking Yeah that's it, it's done Yeah so it er, it were running alright then, and er I took it for a spin I went round the block, up Robin Hood Way Which one's that? Yeah, yeah Yeah, up to Wickes Mm, mm straight up the erm by the custom bridge, right up to the next island round there, round the island and back down again yeah Yeah I give it some you know Yeah back over the flyover, back down here, comes up stop, turns it straight back on again oh no Yeah thought right, spanner took it out the starter motor What's that? Well it wasn't it was the solenoid Yeah, is it for a gauge? A ring Is the solenoid on the starter? Yeah, yeah, what it, what it was on them ones when you turn your key it suddenly clicks and it clicks the thingy forward Yeah and then when it does that when the solenoid comes back Mm it comes back through the starter motor and so I thought oh right strip it all down see what's up, see if it's bent inside Yeah strips it all down, gets the book out, do this, no, that don't work, put the book away Aha ripped it to pieces Yeah just use your commonsense took it all to pieces, cleaned it up all inside it's great, I thought right I'll take it outside and I'll try it now Mm just outside held your foot on it so it didn't fly all over the place, yeah yeah where's all this gone Yeah I thought I'll get one down the scrap yard Well the yeah so you can get the solenoid off Eh? don't you? No, the one, the one I worked on it was inter you had to get a, take, replace the lot The cella solenoid on the top like that Yeah and all, all it's got is now Keith? No ta yeah this Don't put it on the floor this solenoid is under It look like ribbon and there's more to come Yeah What do you mean I made it like a brick? A bit slow on that one weren't ya? there's this solenoid on the top Yeah and it's got like a, a metal thing that comes from it and it's on a pivot Mm like, so you've got a solenoid that holding the top on the pivot and the bit at the bottom just like a like that Yeah like selector like a J selector? Yeah Yeah and when it clicks back it just goes like that, it pushes and pulls Yeah and all you do is you take that pin out and pull it out Oh, eh oh, eh, does it? yeah go on So I went round the scrap yard to er, what's it called? yeah Ken's Ah No, not anyway went in, have you got one? Well there's one there, there's one there and there's one round the back, so I looked in that one it's a different engine Yeah cos in, when you and it shows you the, the engine I went round the back and they'd got yours a two litre? I thought it was a sixteen hundred, yeah yeah looked in it they're the same, I thought tried to pull it out, it won't come out, there's a bracket on it, on the back Was it? Yeah, and it was getting a bit dark and I couldn't see Oh and I couldn't see underneath like er is it done? I said no not yet, he says we're going in a minute, quarter to dip stick Yeah pulled it out the way, fiddle me car yeah and then I go some, put it in It's alright cleaned it all first Yeah my nephew's selling an X R Two you know, grant it in the paper's three thousand whatever it is, deflate, and er guy come round, no problems, no problems with it, well I mean the head gasket's gone and there's a hole near the wing and bald tyre on it but mechanically it's, this guy comes round to look at it, I mean he's been driving it from Plymouth, he's in the navy, up and down here, bloke comes round, yeah no problem, come on round mate, come and have a look at it, look round it, says yeah I like this can I just take it for a drive? Yeah, goes click, click, click, the starter motor, wouldn't believe it would ya? Eh? Would of finished up and now the van's got the red light heat coming on, on the battery, took it into the garage and checked it, it's charging the battery alright, its alternator's okay, but we don't know what it is but when you turn it on, when you turn the key on in the morning Yeah you know where the indicator's on it's a dead flash int it? Yeah It sounds like that, but in the dashboard on the back of the er alternator Is it? Yeah Your instrument voltage regulator That's what I think it is Yeah it's not cutting out for the for the thingy That's right is your no Oh What, what else is happening, you know you know your brake warning lights? Yeah When your brakes are going Yeah erm that then don't come on either, but when it clicks like that they flash together and they both light up, and then when you start it up they go up and then they come back on again You got an problem? I don't think so he, he says it's charging alright so sounds like you've got a to me This is it, if it's a yeah If the, if the battery was, like if you want it the battery, when you turn it on that that's true, yeah Yeah, so you can leave it and but this, this er starter motor is the one I bought from the is better than the one that's in it Yeah it's got four good instead of two Has it? Yeah yeah, well is it? you've got more chance of it firing Yeah, cos if one set go you still got right I went to G T Cars Yeah, will they do it? to ask about the yeah To buy one I bet they'll sell you one wouldn't they? Yeah they would, yeah Did they? Yeah and starter motor before Yeah I says er how much are they? how much? Well I'd say to price it, I know they're not quite so expensive on carpet but I'd say I'd say about seventeen pounds, but I bet it was about twenty seven or thirty one It was about fifty seven You're joking, just for a solenoid? I said alright, how much is it for the starter motor with the solenoid built onto it like? Oh probably about sixty two Eighty quid Yeah, that's it Twenty quid for a starting motor Yeah I'll have one of them well he says we've had so many of them I thought I'm not surprised I've got er, I've got a database Yeah on a database because it'll soon be what I've done is I've put like erm the year, the year and the make of the month, right the month anyway, so I've put something like one, ten, eighty seven right as the month and after that I've put down what magazine it is Yeah every yeah and then I've put project what it's called and then I've put what kind of project it is what type Oh right and then I've put like audio Yeah and photographic Yeah so that in the end when I sell it again I can put the type in alphabetical ascending order Mm so it'll be like erm amplifier, bass amplifier Yeah you know Oh yeah things like that Yeah It, it's all that and then you can just look through the amplifier and it takes about eighty records at a time because it's using forty five letters with the right cos some of them are dead wrong Yeah erm so many for the dates and for so many for the and so on like that and er, I thought okay I don't like the bow on it load it, sort it out and print it, right? Mm It starts off happily printing away, gets to page full Yeah starts to wind fan fold paper and wind it and wind it and wind it Bet they're all printed it's coming right through I thought what the bloody hell's all this Yeah switched it off, fanned it all back, right and I thought start again, I must be doing something wrong, so I the switches in the back Yeah so er I thought I'd try it on one piece one piece of paper Yeah one with perforation on Yeah try it on that, put the paper in did pass the paper and er the paper light comes on Right, yeah, and he's carried on printing while the paper like Really? Yeah, gets page, winds that piece of paper out, withdraw the package like that Yeah and then it winds another piece of paper in and starts printing again yeah, aha You're supposed to be using that, so it's printing the sheet and throwing it out and printing on that one and then throwing that out and making another one Yeah that's why the, that's why they're running backwards and then forwards again Mm to make sure it ain't falling in, you know What printer is it? Epsom They're good very good, yeah, I say you could borrow my printer again, but that's, that packed up you know Did it? that printer of mine, yeah about about, no, no it's only about a fortnight ago, I was on site doing a job and I come out and as far as you know what you call courtesy dial in a card, so that you don't cut anybody off, you can dial it and everybody says oh what's going off, you know, you can courtesy dial it, when we've finished it shuts that channel down Mm yeah oh can't get it, and that's what we do and it comes up three channels you can use and somebody else cleared out two channels are used and if them channel everybody on that call, instead of sixteen channels on a card and there's five people using it, it comes up five channels in use and blocks out number eleven so that nobody else can use it Ah right you see? as they as they share the line it switches them off Blocks them off as well yeah, and it comes up one channel in use when they cleared out card down, it clears the card so you can take it out I don't, they come down three channels in use, two channels in use, one channel in use. Er apologies for er er apologies for absence. Er the only formal apology I er have is from Judith, we are of course er as yet still missing er Malcolm and Liz. . The Liz is just arriving, actually. Is she? Oh good. Yes, they were parking just now. Oh yes.. Right. Er. Excuse . We will we will wait for Liz. . C come in. . Please feel free to speak up. . I haven't eaten yet. It's no use talking to that, because . I haven't eaten yet. Don't shout too loud because you get somebody'll have to listen to all this . Turn it off and start again. Evening Liz. Hello. Start again. I'm afraid we've nicked the comfy seats. Sorry about that. O o over here? Ei either of those, yes Right. I'm sorry we er the other ones have been taken. You haven't missed anything at all. . The minutes of the meeting held on the first . of May nineteen ninety three. Er sorry . Present secreta chairman, secretary, Julia, Judith. Apologies were received from Phil, Malcolm, John and Pauline. Er minutes of the meeting held on the tenth of January were read and approved. The secretary reported that the charge for the Great Hall for the fourth of November nineteen ninety two was thirty pounds, that but that in future the charge will be forty pounds. It was noted that on two occasions members of the committee collected subscriptions in the treasurer's absence. It was also noted that Isobel has rejoined the orchestra for two rehearsals. A G M fifth of May, the draft reports of the treasurer and secretary were noted. It was agreed that the new committee should be recommended to appoint a press secretary. Judith and Julia will discuss with Malcolm the duties of the treasurer. Concert held at School on twenty fourth of March, this was agreed to have been successful. Concert to be held in Holy Trinity Church on tenth of July, the conditions listed in the Reverend Mark 's letter were noted. John 's offer to prepare a programme was accepted with pleasure. It was agreed that the rehearsal will be at four o'clock and the concert at seven thirty, allowing sufficient time for a picnic in between. . The programme may include some or all of the following, Strauss Pizzicato Polka, Souza Stars and Stripes, Schubert Overture in B Flat, Davis Solemn Melody, Elgar Minuet, Vaughan Williams Household Music, Haydn Horn Signal Symphony, Bach Jesu Joy of Man's Desiring. John has offered to play Debussy's Petite Suite for two pianos, other solos may include piano trio Should be a good trick if he can do it . the will show the Reverend Mark . a draft programme for his approval as soon as it is available. Concert to be held in the Great Hall on third of November. The following items may be included in the programme. Vivaldi Guitar Concerto, Rossini William Tell Ballet Music, Mozart Flute Concerto Number two, songs by Heather , a wind quintet. The chairman will ask Jimmy if he would like to play a cello concerto, and the secretary will ask Malcolm if he would like to play the . Carols for Everyone, eighteenth of December nineteen ninety three. The secretary will again ask the to confirm that they are willing to sell tickets. He will also contact the Boys' Brigade, to see if they'd be prepared to play, and S O S transport international, to obtain more information. W I piano, it was noted that the W I are now trying to replace the hall piano. Any other business, it was agreed that the new committee should be asked to consider the possibility of holding meetings after rehearsals rather than on Saturday or Sunday afternoons. The meeting closed at four O three P M. Er. . I think you're meant to ask if that's a true record. Not that any of us was Yes. here, very much. So . Yeah, well I I would say that was a very true record, I was here, I think that's a Yeah. true record. I wasn't.. Yeah. Yeah. . You weren't here. Tt. Right, thank you Mr Secretary. Matters arising. Several things come straight to mind .. Do do you want to take them, or or shall I remind you of what the headings were? Er y erm well the three things I've got down here, piano, I I notice the piano's arrived. Er which is very good. Is there only one key? Mhm. Not that we've found it really matters, we've been Yeah. able to get into it anyway. But er . Mm. Well of course, yes . . That's fine. The the tickets and the chad d did er Could I could I just go back on on the piano please. Yes. Yes, you . Yeah. Erm could could I suggest that the committee might like er to ask me to right to the W I to thank them for getting a new piano? I think that's a I think it would be prudent. I think that's a . I would certainly think it's a good idea. Good evening Malcolm. Good evening. I know I've been er elected vice, I intend to display all the er vices, sloth, idleness, . . lack of punctuality. Well that's . Erm, you're being recorded by the way. Would you like to sign this to say that your words are being recorded and you don't object . That's just like a clarinet player . I don't give a damn. . I'm sure that . But you've got to sign, otherwise Oh. Same also Liz, if you don't mind. So yes, if you could write to the if you could write to the Women's Institute, that would be very good. Thank you. Well I will when I've got my pen back . Right, that's fine. . Oh dear, what a shambles. What's that scribble? . Like a doctor's signature.. Thank you very much, I think you can read mine. Sorry, er ch could we raise that under . under Carols for Everyone? Yes, if you want It's er yes, that can come along later. . Er er there was something else, I I sorry Greg y you were going to raise Oh, the Boys' Brigade, but that can that can also you Yes. were going to write to them Yes. as well. Erm I think all I think most of the other things I the only er one I I would like to raise is that it was agreed that the new committee should be recommended to appoint a press secretary. Yes, well that's the next item of course. It is isn't it? I Yeah. I'd forgotten I'd put that on the agenda. . How clever I am at these things. Yes. No other matters arising? . Okay. Number three, actually, it it's not number three There's two number threes, aren't there ? There are two number threes. Appoint appointment of press secretary. Appointment of press secretary erm this was decided last time, that a press secretary would be a very good idea, er to try to achieve more publicity for the orchestra, not just for er concerts, but perhaps for recruitment purposes too. We now need to appoint someone. I I should say, I I s I have today, because it was things were running a bit late, written to the the three usual papers, Mhm. er the Chad,Newark Advertiser, with er the usual useless information that they don't do much with. And er so we we're covered to date, Right. but I would like someone ideally to take take over from now on. So that's where we go from here. I don't know whether anyone is jumping with joy at the thought. Ooh that's quite good.. Well I could I could er I could probably take on that task if you wish, cos it's easy enough to actually write letters to people, cos I can just ask my secretary to do that. . So that's ac it's actually quite easy It and I certainly wouldn't mind doing that. Well,i if if you you could combine it with with with the chair, that would be, . Gosh. No reason why not. The only thing I don't know i make sure make sure that this secretary gets a ch suitable honorarium at Christmas . our staff get very well treated here. Would be nice if other people do. But . Yeah . But what I what I what I don't know is who the who the contact at these No. various places are. I I will give you a note then. Yeah. Yes. Yes, I won't tell my wife, otherwise she'll be furious. Mm. . Yes. . normal state of matters, isn't it? . So that's that that's that rather awkward item so quite rapidly sorted out, yes . It was, yes. And John's got us onto the next one I see. Well, I thought you'd have to be . Yes, concert at Holy Trinity church, which is of course our next concert. Erm these are the these are our publicity posters. Right. Yeah. There are a few at that size. Mm. Very nice. Nice . And that is er one of the programmes which are now being printed. Oh lovely. Have you done those? Thank you very much. No, Jill did. Oh,. efficient. Terribly. She's not very pleased with it. She asked me to to say that for the record . Oh no, it's beautiful. it's nice to have I think it's not I the erm actual churches Mhm. I think it's excellent. Yes, I think it's . But she's actually been in bed for five days. . Oh very nasty. Well I I would like to propose that the again we we er we thank Jill for this. . I don't intend to write, if you don't mind . Well supposedly she'll come tomorrow night anyway Ah. and do some work . Oh lovely. . It's an excellent poster Lovely. and I will endeavour to advertise this. Do you want us Can we take these? to take some to to hang around ? You can take some and who normally put things where. Well that that's the important thing, is we shouldn't they shouldn't . just lie around anywhere. I'll take I'll take a couple for the moment. . I did about twenty, because I thought well we don't normally sort of adv scatter more than . that do we? Is there a notice board down at the the that one of those could be put on? Oh yes, aha, I will do that That's a jolly good idea. to oh shall I put that one up as well? Mm. That one . Anyway. If I take the rest away and try and Who normally sticks one in the library, or It needs a big one doesn't it? I . I usually do that. . No they no d don't give don't give them big ones , Don't they put a big one they don't put them up. That right?. Well, they don't put up little ones either, I mean they they they're very loathe to put . They've got so little space. That's right. Pec They're peculiar in the library. Yeah, libraries are very funny aren't they? Mhm. I find that with our local, but well twist their arm. But it's a quest if you take something of reasonable size not too far in advance, you're usually alright. that right now. It's three to four weeks,? Solos. . . Yes. Erm, the arrangement erm I think for this concert arise on the er er sheet which we distributed last week and the week before,er Which I have inadvertently forgotten to bring with me. Doesn't matter we've got some spares. Ah . I knew somebody would take the hint. Not here, but we've got some spares Ah. we've got some spares in the . That's unfortunate. Erm which I can remember som go something along the lines of rehearsal at four thirty, picnic tea F four. Four. Beg your pardon. Four . Well Sharp. this is all off the top of my head, four sharp, picnic tea, concert, and go home. Or go back wherever. I I anticipate that the concert should be over about nine thirty, although I hope no if we finish nine thirty five no one 's going to . shoot me. I wouldn't mind if it's over . . Er refreshments, everyone's going to bring their own er packed thing which we're going to share. Shou should I I I should think. last time there was some tea around available . I I must yes , shall I Yes, there was I've said on the note that tea will be available, I must admit I didn't check that , but I will do that . Well the kitchen is still as was. That's what I thought, yes. Alright. Yes, but is there somebody going to be climbing all over us saying No no no, you can't use our tea urn,. Well unfortunately , the lady who lives in the top cottage is now in erm hospital Ah. cos she had her what we think is probably a final stroke, not too long ago. So erm, she's usually the one who would have staggered round Yes. and said, Yes. you can't do that, and all the rest of it. Yes. Erm and the place is like Fort Knox at the moment, cos it's got double sort of ten lever locks on every door, because somebody was pilfering from there, Tt. not too Oh. long ago. But I well I will make arrangements for it to be opened of course Yeah. on the afternoon, but I wi when I'm doing that I will check up about the tea urn and Yeah. so on. Has anyone got anything else they want particularly they'd like? I mean er d we usually offer a choice of soft drinks. Yes. Er it might be nice if someone was to er obtain something. Okay, well I'll bring some. Well I'm going to the cash and carry sometime . this week, so if you want me to get some some squash or something. Well, provided someone does, we don't want two, but we do want one to bring it. Yes . Especially for a summer concert on a boiling hot day,. .. Oh yes. I've got I'm going to the cash and carry anyway. You're going to the cash and carry, so. I'm going to the cash and carry, yeah. I was actually considering getting some of those little boxes. Yeah. I er Or whatever I mean er as well as rather than the expensive,. They're expensive and they're . not very nice. I think we're better off with orange squash, just . ordinary orange squash and dilute it down. To be honest. Okay. It's certainly more flexible, because you can then We've got we've got the rest left for use on a Wednesday then use . er er Yes. There's still quite a big bottle for use on a Wednesday down . Is there? Is there? Well we want to use that up. Mhm. . . From a hygiene point of view it's it must be a little ancient by now. Well, I don't know, if it's if it's if it's got sugar in, it'll it'll be fine. sugar free one. .. . . We'll see what they've got, if they've got something exciting, I might get more than one exciting squash, so I'm alright, as long as the tea keeps flowing, I Cash and carry. don't care.. . We we didn't actually get through all the arrangements question, erm,J John a are you w there was some ce uncertainty as to whether or not you were going to be able to bring your adaptable piano? Well we'll use the piano that's there. You're going to use the piano that's there ? Cos it's it's it's for piano duet, not Yeah. two pianos, cos I was The piano there is adequate for the job is it? Well, not really, but we'll use it . Is i is it in tune ? . Because if we're going to use it for the ragtime and er Well of course it's in tune. Right. Yeah.. It's electronic. Oh is it? No, er the piano in the church we're talking about? Yes. Oh I'm sorry, oh sorry Yes. I thought you were talking about Yes. an ordinary piano in the church. Oh right, oh well Yes, that's fine, yes. Ideal. no no,. Ideal, yeah. It's tuneable. Oh mm yes. Oh even better. We can put it down . Is it one ? . No, no. I think it's got a piano and harpsichord,John. Oh. Well we could use the harpsichord for the Haydn anyway,. Oh yes . Oh yeah, that'd be nice, that'd be great. Yeah. That's alright harpsichord I I heard, it'd .. But what what we can't get is an organ out of it which is a pity , Well we have got an organ in the church . There's There is an organ in the church anyway. Yeah. Ah but that's the devil to try and coordinate that with an orchestra when you're at the other end Yes it is isn't it? sense of . You can't put the devil in a church John, come on . . . The one thing which we haven't got still are are er bells, Mm. er other than wh the church ones, which obviously aren't a lot of use to us for this can use that . Erm I was thinking of phoning John , I don't know if anyone else knows anyone else who might have tubular bells of the right pitches ? What do we want those for ? . Er In a monastery garden, one of these vital things, it d it you can do it on a piano, but it doesn't really sound. Has got any? That's a thought isn't it? has probably got some in his shop. Well, I don't know if tubular bells are what most music shops carry standard. Mm no. Mm. Well, he has most percussion stuff. It wants to be deep o a deep one, I mean i it's . not just a not a high E, it's got to be a very low E. Yeah. Mm. It'd be worth asking him first, though . That's not that's not a bad idea, yes . Mm. John would Yes. come across if he's got access to Well, I was thinking if he couldn't actually make it, he could actually l like It's not really the height of the concert season is it? No, it isn't, no. I'll I'll ask him then. . Tt er anything on those arrangements? I don't think so. Publicity and programmes. Well, we've got the programmes being printed, haven't we John? Yeah. And the posters, we can ask members of the society to distribute those er over the next er I ought to ask Malcolm if he c I I don't know what day you'll be in? Sorry. The . There's only there's only actually one day I'm not there. Ah, so if I I'll I'll rephrase that,n only one day I don't appear .. If if one can go very gentle with , I think in I . the end, we're going to have to seek alternative Yeah. . It's a matter arrangements, she seems to be getting more and more Yeah. snowed under there . Yeah. It's a matter we need . Cos they're doing more and more in half an hour. Yeah. Is this copying we're talking about? Yeah. This is, yeah. Yeah, we've got an a I I can copy, but we've only got an A four copier, Mm. which won't er which is just a sort of straightforward copier. Yeah. But I can c copy there. The only trouble is, the only other place I know with a photocopier it's one of these typical photocopying as we know, you know. Well I think the school here does do erm er you know outside work We do. And we have a woman does it. Erm yeah. Well,th that's two Just have to pay , very cheaply . Cos I know the woman who does the is the reprographics How much is it a copy? woman down here. Two P I think. Two P . Mm. Yeah, well that's still Yeah. about two thousand per cent up . on our current system .. getting an awful lot more . Well, I mean sh we could probably do it cheaper, you know I wonder whether the would do , you know. It might. I think le let's keep let's keep the the for the carols. Yes, that's . that's the one that it's the one that bothers me. Yeah, I mean we could we'll do it cheap we could do it cheap and I could work that out in a private way. Yes. That's the one I'm thinking of . Yeah, but you mean ano we can do the odds and ends but it's the it's the other one. Yes, it might be promised for the carols, but it's not Yes. Well. Yes, we'll see. . Right, item four, concert in the Great Hall, third of November nineteen ninety three. Y y you'll see at the bottom of the agenda that er John and I talked about this the other night, er and there are The Great Hall? at least Yes, the Great Hall . Ah yes, right, yes right . right down the bottom. Oh yes it's right down the bottom isn't it. Yeah. Right. And there are a number of possible pieces there, Did we talk about this? We did. Ah, right, yes. Someone must have made the list.. Er but that's just er something to talk around. I should say I have one problem, and that is I have the ballet music from William Tell there, but that seems to have walked. Er n Danced. Danced, danced.. . where did it go? I I had a set a full set of music which I I er er was at the W I hall, and has now gone. Oh. Where the dickens it's got to. I remember it Someone took it I think. I remember it being collected in . Well I'll check in case I might have picked it up with my school stuff, to be honest I remember it being collected in, but er cos I just picked everything up that was in there, thinking it was mine, and . Well I haven't got it. So I've probably got it, Ah. If you could put it and I put it straight in my cupboard so I'll go to the cupboard tomorrow and look . Ah,c if you could look I'd be very grateful. Yes. But someone I'm almost sure in fact,probably have . took took some of the took the clarinet parts to transpose them, and they have gone. I remember discussing that. Now someone took them and I don't know who took it intending But not me. to transpose them. No I shall have a look no, I don't know who , No. I mean I'm not looking at anyone in particular, because I I can't I remember speaking about it to Malcolm,a and remember. Well who would do that? Well I shall have a look. I don't You you and I discussed whether I I was going to be able to do it . I don't I can't remember doing I can't remember taking it . It was quite a long time . I am going to raise later a number of missing parts that I I . . Quite a . it matters for this one, for this concert . haven't got , but I shall have a look for that. What was that for, the the Rossini? William Tell, yes . Rossini William Tell . Oh. . such a a wonderful piece. It would be nice to do it I think, and it would . I don't know, I mean Well I may have taken it because we . had a set at school, and I might have thought that was amongst my set, Ah. so in It's quite old, it's sort of I'll have two sets at school anyway then, if I've got yours. of the original. . bring the decent . Bring both,bring both, yeah .. Is our is the guitarist w going to be available for the ? I have just written down that I must write to him, Alright,. because he has now left school having Yes. finished his exams, Right. I have now left school, Yeah. and, well, just about. And so the only communication I shall have with him is by letter, but er it's the third of Nov. November isn't it? Yeah. Mm. . Have you done now? Oh yeah. I can bring some reports round for you to right then.. Aha ha no. . It's a nasty affliction deafness, you know.. We we we've still got the parts for the concerto the guitar concerto, yeah? Ann said, Ann said to me Oh yes. the other day she said We own the parts. Oh do we? . Oh. Courtesy of a certain photocopier. . . at the moment. just just just finished no more course work the last course work I'm ever going to do, she says Erm I've got a hundred and twenty pieces you can help me mark .. . The rest of the conversation is not for repetition. No. The the Weber parts for the Weber clarinet conc concertino are somewhere between the music library in Nottingham and the library here and should reach me a week tomorrow . . Sorry about that,done it. . Well I don't know , they usually co they usually deliver on a Wednesday, so with luck I'll get them tomorrow. Very good. Er it it's really a matter of whether you feel you'd like to do it. Yeah, no sweat. Yes,. Good, well okay I do . . you'll be lucky, yeah. Erm it it's not easy. Er you are playing double bass. Mm. I think I think the good part for . find a piano reduction for this, cos I I think there will I think there should be there may well be one, there usually is with the . I shall make you work.. I thought you'd been doing that for the thirty whatsit of July. But there may be I mean warmed up for that. . This is just a sort of first list, the one thing erm you were going to ask Jimmy? I have asked Jimmy, and Jimmy has declined, Right. I'm afraid,f for a cello concerto, he declined, I asked him er a couple of weeks ago. Tt so that was a shame , . he I We've probably got actually quite a bit of other stuff already, but er Tt, well if we've got a guitar concerto, a clarinet concertino and possibility of a flute concerto, Mm. alright. Tt we were expressing , John and I, some erm concern that the the same few people seemed to be offering the soloing or we'll do something bits. And maybe it's aren't there others who can, . although we did of course have that disastrous trio,that came to blows two years ago . Yeah, but look Oh yes. . . Last year, we didn't actually make a lot of noise about erm you know, come and do your party . piece business. The year before wh wh We did. we made an awful lot of erm noise about erm you know, this is not actually a co a concert, this is come and do your party piece, come and show off, is there anything you'd like to get together? And when we actually introduced it last year, it was too late , Mhm. people th there wasn't really enough Mm. Time, quite. Erm perhaps it might be an idea to Well I open it up to the membership. Well I wonder if if in fact er tha that this might be a task for the vice chairman t to go round, to to . . . If if the vice chairman was to . . I shall do that. I shall do that. Good. Nae bother. You w you will tr we don't want you know va I mean if we get too many, it could go the other way, but we i if we could get three or four items, that would be very nice. And especially a er they could be from people, Well I'm sure John and Jimmy and Bill have got something. That's what we were commenting on. . Yes, that's the point, to get someone . new new lot, who haven't played before . I know I realise that, it's alright. You see I mean it it did occur to me that er erm on on the three occasions that we've done this now, it always turns out to be er me involved in about just you know either playing the piano or something else in just about everything. Er, Yeah, I'm it's nice to have other people . I I'm working I'm working with erm Howard on er er a little clarinet minuet actually minuet, two clarinets and a bassoon. Erm which would be alright, but then again, the The bassoonist doesn't practice. The r we the bassoonist wo I doubt whether the bassoonist will be there Yeah. anyway, so we could get erm he'd better not be there. Yes. . Poor lad, the pressure on him. . Why? I've lost this.. It's alright , it's just about three different conversations going on here. . Erm we'll get er you know it's not er a very taxing bassoon. No. So would be I reckon would be 's pretty good at it. And and would have a good time playing it, cos i There's enough there, but it's not you know Alternatively, the chairman could do it on his horn, can't he? Yes, well.. Or or or the vice chairman could do it on alto clarinet and give somebody else a clarinet part to play. Now there's a thought, yes, yes. Mm. Hey that's an idea, we try this as clarinet choir. Yeah. clarinet choir can sound quite nice. Most clarinets. Whichever. With there being That's that's that's double bass solo would be interesting . that's back to me again , isn't it? Would it? Yeah. Yes, it would be alright if we had a decent double bass .. need much more strings at the moment. . Well we're going to have this guitar concerto, and I was string player see what we can . . But erm well Right. So the You you're going to try and get some solo out, persuade members to Yes. Are there any other suggestions for possible works while we're on the arrangements and the programme? I've thought of one which I don't I can't remember whether we've ever done that's Rosamunda, Overture to Rosamunda, which Erm yeah . is quite a jolly little piece. . . do it , but not a bad idea, yes. Er We did the Fireworks Suite didn't we,? . Yeah. Yeah. We've done that . Rosamunda. Erm It's the overture isn't it? Oh, yeah, I wasn't thinking about doing the ballet music. The one which Die Selberhalfe . Although some of the ballet music, we we actually some of That's right. ballet music's quite good as well. And not un not unreasonable. It was some of the ballet music we did before. Did we? We did the o we did try the overture, I think, er but we er we didn't get on very well with it. It didn't get on very well with us,. About time we gave it another whirl. But some of the ballet music's quite nice as well. The the only slight concern I've got is there looking at what we've got here, what we really need to add is something which is relatively short and relatively easy, Mm. because I can imagine, looking at rehearsals, what we need are a few sort of easy things to start and end rehearsals with, or for rehearsals when we're a bit thin on the ground, er Well the Bach is that. The Bach is quite Yeah. useful for that, yes, in fact several of I suppose I've done the wind parts for that, they're they're done and copied. We could er there's the Air for Southwell, we could perhaps play that again. Oh mm. Yes, I have to tell you that the Air for Southwell is now in the process of acquiring a beginning and an end. Ah. Ah. It's actually got sixteen bars of start up at the moment, in short score, Cos that'd be which is being sort of developed, Er cos that'd be very nice. I've got that broken arm, which I had to put in a sling every time . I think that'd very very good that one. And a lovely place to play it as well,. Oh yes, yes. Of course. Mm. Well, if what we're looking for is another time Well I think we've probably got enough, something's got to go , oh we've got too too much some of Yes. Yes. these things will have to go, but almost . certain usually, we Well I could volunteer the Air for Southwell. try things and we discover some things don't work very Yeah. well, and we drop them and we add other things . We usually have a fair bit of time to do it. to look at it, so. Er yes, yes, some of them will come and some of them will go, and er And a lot's going to depend on the number of solo items of course I should think, so Yes, oh yes, yeah. Er Now copying musi so so the exactly what we ? Yes, the copying music, what I'm asking for is not so much copying there,ag it's it's the old friend transposition, well it's partly copying, but it's mainly transposition of erm horn, trumpet and clarinet parts Yeah. which tend to be written in every key other than the one we want them. So some things we're alright for, I don't know about the clarinet concertino, I've no idea what that'll come in. Jesu Joy , . you're doing, John . Yes, it's done. Oh gosh . One in D one in E, one in B , Good. Erm the Mozart flute concerto needs Yeah. doing, Yeah, I can there are really it's a question there of trying to sort out who does what in there, there are horn parts, there are no clarinet parts, of course, there are two two ob is it two oboes two horns, I can't remember offhand? Erm tha that's all wind parts. So we need some clarinet parts? We need some clarinet parts, yes. I I think the best thing to do with the flutes is to put them along with the first you want to put on clarinet? And put two second on viola? Second on viola, perhaps? Doubling just perhaps just doubling viola? Well in that case I'll play viola. Or double or double viola and horn. Well they could do second oboe . . I mean if they're not . . . In fact, presumably one also needs to do the transposition of first oboe and second oboe in case the the oboe isn't there? That's true. Mm. Yes. Cos if you cut out the first oboe part, you're in a little bit That is that is crucial, yes. Yeah.. So it's oboes to clarinet , I haven't got the parts in here but I can if I n if someone is going to volunteer to clarinet, horns horns will stay at horns, but horn two presumably on trum what are the what are we going to give the trumpet to do? Usually it's a horn part. Yeah. He's not got much choice really about it. No he hasn't really no, I yeah, trumpet for the horn, yeah. Which one goes better,ho horn one or horn two? Or do you want to have a look at them first? Just . I mean you can imagine what th the horn parts are playing in something like thirds fifths and sixths , It sounds odd yes. up and down the intervals I mean it is a bit of a muchness really. I mean the trouble is if you put the trumpet erm, if you put the trumpet too low, it's it's it doesn't sound good and it goes out of tune, Yeah. you put the ti the trumpet too high it sounds very much out of place. You don't . So er Tricky. It is tricky really. So it er you know And probably the best thing to do is say is say, Trumpet plays horn two, and plays quietly all the way through, Mm. actually that's actually quite hard work. You can say it. It's actually quite hard work on the trumpet,. . . Well it's j it's just the same problem as playing string parts on on wind instruments, you Yeah. by the time you've finished, you you you you've You're killed. you've really had some playing. Mhm. The trouble is with the second horn parts, they often often have a wider register gap, and the first horn part which tends to waver up and down in vaguely the same place while the second sort of goes woo woo woo,jumps up and down. Wh what I'd like to do please, is the trumpet. i if someone would like to volunteer to do these transpositions, I'll I'll do the brass, the horn trumpet whatever is necessary for that . And I'll do the stuff . If I may, I'll give them to you tomorrow with Post-Its telling you what to write, what to transpose it to . That'll be fine, yeah. I mean there's no huge hurry for those, is there, really at the moment so? We need Well, we need to have it ready Yeah. after for Yes. after this concert, this is the point this is why we've Oh yes, oh yes. got f we've got a month to do it in. Now, just as a matter of interest, whilst I remember, how are we off for manuscript paper? point. I've got quite a bit at home. We could always print some more. But er Well I was sort of erm . It'd be cheaper to buy it, actually . progressing, aren't they? No. is it really? I've got a boxful that I never use. Oh. . Yeah, I'll bring it in and you can have it. Yeah, you can have it . No no, it's just as long as you've got a supply somewhere. No no I Yeah. don't want it.. Well could you could you bring it in? . . I'll bring it tomorrow. Yeah. please, cos I appreciate more manuscript paper. I've I've got enough enough stuff in our house without any erm any extra. Good. So we're alright there . a while to transpose,I've been printing stuff on card recently, . Poor lad, And then you just photocopy from the card, and it's a nice , and you keep the card, you don't give that out . great stuff. . Well it's easily identified . Yes. Well we're probably alright for the other things for the time being, but we may need about the the Weber erm . alright. Yes, if we're doing the Weber . Why . Oh sorry, horn and . Yeah, horns and er er the optional clarinet may be an . The horn . I would doubt it, yeah. What key's the clarinet part in? I if er Oh god it's in F,so it's in E flat. Orchestral. . Or or what it is , It'll be . it's a min it's actually minor, and I've got Well this is the one with the business I had with the library. They said, No I suppose it could be E flat, couldn't it? there isn't one in E flat, there's one in C minor. Yeah, C minor,yeah. And actually they've got two miniature scores in the library, one of which said it was in E flat, and the other one said it was in C minor, so you pays your money and you takes your choice, erm . it it's very strange, I've never come across If it if it actually actually finishes on clarinet F, which is the E flat, It's probably E flat. I I I've always called it the E flat, Mm. but there's one score which un un unambiguously calls it in C minor on the , and it starts in C minor, so It it starts in C minor. It starts . . What the one the one The one on the roof yeah. John, can I ask you full rehearsals during the holiday period, was was there any particular point you're considering about that? Well, just concerned about the usual thing that obviously many people are away on holiday then, er I I'm wondering if th anyone anticipates any particular problems this year, or if anyone thinks we ought to do anything by way of special arrangements ? I I may not be away very often this summer. I don't think I will be . . No, no. Well I I shall be away for a while this summer, so hard lines.. I'll I'll actually be here, cos i if we get some builders in, we're Er I don't see not going anywhere in a hurry. Till July and August. I don't see any point in adding complications to life. Just let it run. . Right, okay. That's what I like to hear. easy who's going to be here next week isn't it? Yeah. . Tomorrow Well, yes, that's what we usually do, yes, but Mm. Why? What's wrong with next week? You just stand there and say, Who's going to be here next week ? No, each week. No no no. Oh I see, from week to week, yes yes . I had a meeting last week . . Er next er next item . then, Carols for Everyone, eighteenth of December nineteen ninety three, we have a a draft of carols for organ, paid by our special sub-committee, thank you very much gentlemen. . . For discussion, I see we have some erm non-English carols down here. Splendid. Aye. Masters in this hall, my jug cup of joy overflows . .. That's it, that's why I put it there . I accept everything. There was some reason for having it there. It's cos we knew that otherwise you'd be complaining . Because I thought there were complaints about foreign carols. Wonderful. Is this erm is this a suggested complete list, or are we going to take We need so many out of this list? No we need I can't remember how many We need, last year,fo we found ab was about the right length. Fourteen, yeah. And that was fourteen, if we go over that, it really is too many. Yeah. We can certainly substitute for these no problem. The things you've got to watch for are, that you keep a decent balance of familiar and unfamiliar ones, people complain whichever way you . go either way on that, er you've got to be careful with your number of foreign ones, we've got two down there, which may be one too many, I don't know. Er Just right. Is Jingle Bells a carol ? Well that one doesn't count. No, a carol No it i I'm not going to call it in the programme that, I'm going to call it a song for everyone. I don't think I would dare er call it a carol . There's going to be a competition for the best alternative verse I think. Can I can I do you think I could just ask to run through all these, cos er you you put a couple of strange tunes Yes. so I'm not quite sure how all the ones go. I think everyone knows God Er would you like to sing these John ? Everyone knows God rest Ye, Is that a brick-bint brick-b brick-built handle? Brick-built handle, aye . While while Shepherds watched, the tune for that is going to be The tune for that is John, it's Handel. erm Handel Mason, it says. Yes, that's Handel arrangement Mason . Page one three five. So how how would that go? arranged the American composer, Lowell Mason, Who bought him this book? . . People expect the normal,. . No, they don't expect the normal , What book is it? What book is it? they want the normal, but to get. . This was my Christmas present about . sing it out. . While shepherds watched their flocks by night, all seated on the ground , you want the rest of it? Yeah. . The the the angel of the lord came down, and glory shone around, and glory shone around.. They a they er they're not going to know that are they? Yes. No. . Well, of course, The choir will sing it won't they? the Americans, this we shall . So how is the p proper American version. So are we going to teach them it on or? Have to. Away in a manger, is that going to be a standard tune? Oh yes. Jingle Bells, Masters in this Hall, how? Swe La la la la la la la la la la la, la la la la Yes? So, O Little Town, the tune? Ah yes, now John that is page three six three. Is it as nice as the proper one? It's again it's the Proper one? this is the original tune, no, this is the original tune . La la la la la la la la la la. Because the man who erm . . it might be an idea what he actually said about this. Philip Brooks was director of Holy Trinity church in Philadelphia, erm on, and he was in the Holy Land on Christmas Eve in eighteen sixty five, and he stood in a field outside Bethlehem where the shepherds were supposed to have received the annunciation, and thought of the beginning of O Little Town of Bethlehem. And it eventually gestated out, and he wrote it for his Sunday school, and his church organist, Lewis Redner was asked to provide the music, and this is the music which Redner provided Aha. for the original. And once again, it's American. O Little Town of Bethlehem, how still we see thee lie. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Every American knows it. Right? Flows nicely. do know about that. Yes, oh that's nice, yes. There aren't too many Americans in . . So what?. Has everyone heard ? No. No. La la la la La la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la . Is it sung in Latin? Yes. Splendid. la la la Well that's a foreign one then. la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la orchestrated . la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la . It's it's Holst isn't it? Yes. Yes. It's the Holst arrangement, although they've got anther version of it in there, which isn't Holst. Oh no,the Holst. which they . I think the Holst. Holst goes above . . We've got to have Holst, yes. The Virgin Mary had a baby boy, last time, and the problem was starting it. la la la la la la la la . starting it, We've done that before haven't we? Yes. We we've got it complete with diddly-dums and all the rest of it. The Twelve Days of Christmas, is that the, did we do that the year before last? We did it last year, didn't we? Yes, we did it last year? No we didn't. . We haven't done it for a while. We haven't done it for two years. No bu I'm sorry, the other thing I'm sorry I should have said the other thing I'm going on is when things were last done, . Oh yes, yes. I've seen I've seen famous sheet before. Yes, we've got a little list, we've got a little list. I've seen Ah. this famous sheet before, yes. The Twelve Days of Christmas was last done in nineteen ninety, Yes. before that it had been done in eighty one, eighty two, eighty four, eighty six, eighty eight and ninety, so curiously now, it's it's missed out several years, Mm. Oh dear. it was getting . a bit regular, and now, it's dropped . It was, yes, yes. So we really must have that back, and I think we must have it in the er traditional tune . Three years ago . Yes. Well we've got the traditional thing without the modulation to G flat major, Oh. . Can't we do can't we do the old one? Oh, I like the one . Every everything always went very quiet at that point. Yeah, yeah. . Not a lot of people played it. Tricky for the You'd wrong, and they'd all shut up. . Should give the audience . . The org the organist used to carry it for a long way. Yeah. Il est ne, is that going to be in French or? Oui. Oui, mais c'est formidable. Il est ne le divine enfant, La la la la la la la la, la la la la la la . We tried to sing that last Christmas, but . Er Bleak Midwinter we can either have the traditional tune, Yes. or Harold Darkey, but the traditional tune is . We ought to have some traditional ones . . I I have a feeling we're we're a a little bit low on familiar things, you see, Yes. I'm worried about this. But both tunes are very familiar . Well come on, you've got Good King Welly, God Rest you merry gentlemen, eh In the bleak midwinter , Away in a manger , I like that . . The only trouble about that, unless you What is the other one? start it at about er molto presto, you end up La la la la la. La la la la la la . That's a problem we ought to sort out. No. La la la la la la la la la la . Couldn't we rather pick the one tune and the other? That's more of a choir setting though, isn't it really? Oh, I dunno. . . Yeah, well,per perhaps we'll get Good King Wenceslas looked out. . Did you want to s you started your way through there? No, I'm just listening to the two, yes. Now we were going to do The Holly and The Ivy, but that's why the carol crept in . orderly meetings, these. What's that one? La la la la It's the one la la la la la la la la . No. Erm. Erm. . It's also choir practice. . . Give us an A please. La la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la. Are the words in English to that? Yes. , I Saw Three Ships. La la la la la la la la la. I there is a version by John Rutter in five eight time if you want me to find that . Yes, yes, I'd like to see that. . I think I've seen that one. . La la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la . One two three four five, one two. La la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la. I like it,. Lovely it is, it's great,. Isn't that one of the carols required? Erm I don't know, it probably is, yes. There's a horrible Rutter one in there, which was I've never . You can't say horrible. We we usually do do the Rutter one, which begins with a horn solo, which No, we . should always worry you, I don't mean now , but in the past . it's always been, because er it's . it's a a horn then bassoon solo, and it it's a most worrying opening for er a because it is . it is literally a solo, er unaccompanied. It is, it's straight out the blue, yeah. Pop . Yes, and everybody else sort of goes, Who? . Yeah, er I must admit it it's alright, but. It's it's slightly dicey . It's the one that gives you your worst fears, isn't it, when you conduct it, and you go and nothing happens. . Then it's start again. Well yes. . But I I do wonder whether or not there aren't there there aren't enough familiar ones? Some of those, some of those are a little bit unfamiliar, especially in the . tunes. And and I I wonder if There is an absence of the two biggies, I mean it's always nice to have one which people can really latch onto like er You're talking about Hark the Herald . . Hark the Herald i is one which really I . I I p I'm inclined to suggest that it's a pity we haven't got that in, somewhere at the beginning or the end to sort of give a bit of beef to it. You can get in an awful track . Cu cut out I Saw Three Ships,and put Hark the Herald Angels in. But if I Saw Three Ships was in there because it was one of the few in six eight time. Yes, that was the reason for it. I think it would be a shame to drop something. I mean everyone knows it, it's very familiar. Well drop something else. Jingle Bells. I must admit, if I had if I actually had to say, which of all those would I be most happy not playing, I'd say In the Bleak Midwinter, but Ah. it is I find In the Bleak Midwinter a dirge if you're not very careful. I think it's I it is. And a lot of people . I would want to agree , that would be my first out. I agree. Yes. Yes. Because there are some quieter ones,O Little Town is going to be a quiet one, Away in a Manger, Yes, but it's not the proper tune is it? Il est ne. It's of course it's it's the original tune . It's the proper tune. . It's going to be very quiet if people don't sing it. Il est ne il est ne is . fairly reflective in places, especially if it's in French, it'll do qu it'll be sort of quite quiet. Er We we've dropped In the Bleak Midwinter, and we've added Hark the Herald, yes? I I'm trying Mm. to make sure I've got this right , because Yeah. it gets complicated if we're really not careful. If Hark the Herald goes at the beginning, it'll need a fanfare won't it? Well, I I was, yes, unless you I don't know whether I Saw Must be . Three Ships ends well, I'm not quite sure on that, but the order isn't, I mean the order's just a sort Oh no, the it's of rough and ready one, the order's got to be hammered out. . I would have thought you needed a nice oomph at the end. It's always difficult, you know, the end is Hark the Herald is a good way to end actually. Hark the Herald is an excellent ending. Yes,. Yes, I can't help feeling that would go nicely. But either would .. Well we can have a fanfare at the end, can't we, why not? Yeah. This year we decided to end with a fanfare. I mean God Rest ye Merry is a very good starter . . Yes. Why not? It's a real warmer . It's a real belter that one, and Hark the Horrid at the end's fine. Where we could ideally then I think I'd move I Saw Three Ships, if if this is anything like the order, The middle. to somewhere in the middle, because around er play it between O Little Town of Bethlehem and , because that's a bit we need something a bit more Yeah. familiar around there . Yeah. Well what we did last year, we altered the order really quite late, to juggle Mm. to fit in with some of the other things that we . Oh that's the trouble , until you know who what the soloists Yeah. are, you er you're wasting your time, really, but it's useful to have some idea. We've got opening and a closing. Er any other comments on the actual draft list of carols Nobody listens to the bit in the middle. for the mo I mean some of this may depend upon the availability of music. Well, will Hark the Herald be an O U P one? Yes. Yeah. Oh they're always available, yeah, yeah. Right. Cu The the other thing we need to discuss are po things that actually erm er I suppose hire or arrangement of music, well the the hiring will be O U P or what we've already got Yeah. or re-arranging bits and bobs, Quite a number of these we already have. Yeah, were were you planning to Yes. Yeah, were you planning to just Yes. the O Little Town were you planning to arrange them from the Yes. what you've got there ? Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's fine. I don't mind volunteering, unless anybody else wants to. . . They'll they'll be s they'll be quite simple versions . You're going to have more time than us by Christmas. Oh I see, yes, it's like that is it? Yes. So there were two things that er well or perhaps more than two from matters arising from the minutes, er the Chad for the tickets, I think was one thing that was, Are we on? We're not going back to are we ? I'm sorry, I'm getting going back to number two. No no no, that's alright. We're still on we're still on Carols For Everyone. Yes, I know er I can I just get my bits of paper on there, Yeah. Yes, I have at last,and the I'm sure that they lied in their teeth, they they assured me they had written to me after my second letter in March, er in fact, and they said they were going to send me a photocopy of that, in fact er she wrote me a letter in June, so I don't believe the other one existed, Yes, you keep everything, don't you John? Mm. Er With reference to I write to confirm we are very pleased to be able to contribute towards your forthcoming carol concert. Susan at our Southwell office will help with the sale of the tickets. We will also offer a photocopying service, er at a fifty per cent reduction. that's not really enough for us, but still, . Er Our local reporter Caroline er will be contacting me with regard to any suggestions I may have on the editorial side. Please do not hesitate to contact me if I can be of further assistance, one Lynn , head receptionist. That's all I know about. I wrote her a long long Sounds very . letter all about it, so she's got no excuse for not knowing Mm. what the hell it's all about. Quite good. So they are doing it now. Can I ask,i i this is I don't know why I keep asking to work, erm can I write to Mrs to I think we we ought to as it Please do. were formally Tell her to get lost. relinquish our er er I think Thank you thank you for your association with our and saying that we Due to last year's . No no, we but we very diplomatic. I I was joking. Leave it to him . very simple reason she can't get she can't argue, this is a charity concert, she charges, the Chad don't, and therefore, from the point of view of the charity, er it makes obvious good sense that we should go to somewhere which is free. She can't argue with that. All she might do is offer to do it at a lower rate,in which case , Er we don't take any offers No. we we've taken the contract up with the Chad, haven't we ? We've already said We've already we've already Yes. The real killer will w will be when we try to get her to display one of our posters saying tickets available . in the Oh no. Chad office . No I think That's alright, I'll go and stick it out one night outside the window . . Yes. With superglue.. I think we'll erm be grateful for that. Dignified. I think so, yes. . I mean I think it would be nice to erm Now that's another thought, about posters and things. If we want to coat these things at any time in erm acetate Yes. I know So it can go outside. a Oh. machine where there is a machine that you a So do I. heat sealing one that you can just run things through and they come out neatly sealed in acetate and waterproof like. . Then we can superglue it onto her window and it won't get wet in rain . nasty little vicious streak in you. Yes, I know. course, things have happened various things have happened, Aha. Mainly er that among groups now I've had a definite offer from the er Sunday school again, wanting Mm. to do something. suggestions There was a suggestion for that wasn't there? Any suggestions er will be duly received, but er we'll come back on that one if we may in a minute , I Saw Three Ships or something in the region or something? Er n no,c c can can I just finish off explaining why it is I'm not writing No, I'm going to interrupt you as I usually do. I thought you were yes. Erm dancers however have now erm raised their lovely legs or er whatever you . Well, I can't say raised their ugly head can I?dancers, yes. Erm, two possibles have come er h have appeared, both of whom er w say they would er, one is is an Appalachian dance group, called Just for Kicks, who I saw at the open . day, who're very good. Er, and would make a tremendous din on the Minster floor, and they would be er lovely. Er, . sweep their legs up like you know, an extraordinary sight, er . I'm sure it is John. . No,a little like er dolls, sort of marionettes, Yeah. Right. you know they just sort of wave around, I don't know how you do it, it it's incredible. Erm and the other one is a is a a ladies' morris group from Nottingham, er, sort of clog dancers really I suppose again, who would again be er prepared to come along, er Have two. I spoke to them, Well I think that would be a bit naughty Yes, so do I. I I think if we get one of them we'll be doing very well, and to get two would be perhaps a bit naughty . We don't want two dancers , but one one set of dancers . But erm I I would like to suggest that the er the morris ones are er possibly our better bet, partly because I I I know one of them, er and er . and she would I think be prepared to as she's in charge of their sort of arrangements for where they dance, er it's easier than ne negotiating with someone who who I've only met once er very briefly. So if I may, I would like to negotiate to one or the other if if you will agree er to that, to try and get us a dance group, we've been trying to get a dance group for years Mm. and we may now at long. But because they're essentially a sort of er a noisy and spectacle spectacle thing, erm that's why I haven't done anything with regard to Erm. the Boys' Brigade as yet, although I don't see any real reason why we can't have both, but I wanted to get your views before I . Are the clerics going to look down their noses at this? Well, it's traditional English , Erm that's a isn't it? That's a good question. Perhaps I ought to ask the er ask the provost . I I I really I I wouldn't have thought he would object, I mean we have used morris Yes, before. Not like you're using can can, they're doing the can can. But under different erm different different er regimes. . I think it'd be I think it'd be worth asking them . true.. I'd rather ask early rather than late. Yeah. Yeah. I'll ask Be worth be worth enquiring about. Alternative medicine's okay, but the old religion's a bit sort of pushing it . No no, I mean you're quite right, erm Well I think they're not going to sing, the last one got away with absolute murder singing, I know, it was fantastic. erm but I I think er it was the words they were singing. Oh I see.. Yes. But I I think this lot will just dance, er and on the whole, erm mu music Behave . is regarded as being essentially something which is neutral, which always seems to me a very wrong thing to say, I I'm sure it's quite incorrect. So er we've got also, we pr we must assume the Choral Society. Yes. Must be. Well as as they include it in their prospectus for the year, We can't ask them to come and keep us warm from behind, er keep the draught off us from behind and And not do anything. not do anything. Oh, they have a purpose, right. . fact it might be apposite this year to suggest to them that they might like to introduce one or other of the things that we were looking at in there. Yes. I don't know. Cos we've always . well, we we're talking about the choral society, and saying well, sometimes they're a bit inappropriate in what they choose to do, like movements from Christmas oratorios with only organ accompaniment, whereas in There's some Gets a bit classy doesn't it? . Yeah. There's some super things in this new carol book , which they . are absolutely you. They make you feel they're trying to raise the tone of the whole proceedings. That's right, yeah. I'll I'll certainly suggest it, it . Cos Peter might be interested in, . Well, I'll I'll gladly . I'll gladly suggest it. But er . I have to say, I I won't take no bets as to what we actually get . No,I agree . . It would be interesting in the orchestra, because the orchestra haven't accompanied a choir before, apart from the congregational singing . Yeah. As far as the come t to the orchestra now erm, The orchestral solo item. The orchestral solo item, and erm I don't know which of us thought of it, but anyway the erm er Er, I know who thought of it. . Alright, You don't think . La . And we're Performing this lovely task for you in Cumbernauld in bonny Scotland. It's now quarter past nine. Your old man here has brought me all the way up here for a complete and utter waste of time . and has only offered to buy me one beer so far. Two. Two. Right. Well let's see if that comes over. That's if I can get this going. Yeah. Right the idea of this little chat this briefing before we go out and do the er driving assessments next week is just to sort of give you an idea and a and a bit of an inroad into what we're looking at and what we'll be doing next week. Now er who did it last year amongst you? I know Dougie did. Two, three. . Must have been the year before you did it then . . Yeah. Right. So I mean obviously er if you've done it before And have y have you done one before at all? I don't know.. My dad's . Did you? Yeah. . There was one just prior to that. I think er . . That's quite a coincidence. Were they? Mm. Well th the thing is those of you who did it last year with me, it'll follow much the same sort of format, so Erm but we didn't do a little talk before. Now that idea was to get everybody together and erm because there have been certain members of the staff which haven't been looked at for a period of time they've escaped the net as it were in the last couple of times and it seems that we've had the same guys for the last three years and some have erm . Well I suppose that's it you see. When you when you come up here and do the driving you find that erm because people are are just not available at the time and erm y I'm here just for a and Stan only here for a a limited period, and er you're sort of trying they're downstairs they're trying to get people off the trucks when they come in or whatever the case may be to go out and do an assessment run, and it's not always possible. Now this time we're here for four weeks so it would probably be that they want to get everybody through this time without anybody escaping the net. And the the policy now with is that this will ta now take place I know that there's been somebody here for the last three years, but this will now take place every two years. So er er whether or not it'll be the same faces c l as come up and do it er But it it shouldn't make that much difference. It will follow the same format. But of course it is nice to come back to the same places over and over again, sort of er see friendly faces. . And er it does make a bit of continuity. . There's a few scowls and grimaces. . Right, so the company that we work for is and they are one of the a number of companies which are operating in the fleet driver training market, and erm they we pren presently have the contract with for this f f course of defensive driver training. Now they call it defensive driver training and er what we're really talking about is safe driving, nothing more and nothing less. And er if you have a defensive driving technique then of course you'll be driving safely. Would you not agree with that? So first of all then, what will we be doing? Now when we go out on the road we would like to go through a vehicle check with you. Erm now we didn't er it's not always possible to do that. The last year wasn't because the way things were running and the way drivers were being brought in. But where possible we would do a t er a vehicle check. And now this time we would like to do a vehicle check with you when we before we go out. Erm I think it it is beneficial mainly in the sense that erm if nothing more than running round the vehicle to make sure there are no marks and bangs and scratches on it which you're going to inherit from the the previous run that it had er with a different driver perhaps . . Yeah but she's a . ? . Aye. . I'm f frightened of ben move down in case all the wiring comes off.. . Oh yeah, that's right. We were looking at that last night. So you would just take that round and just mark on anything that's gotta be . And that's just a pre-vehicle check before you go out is it? Well Yeah. . Right. And n normally I suppose the company have a policy in relation to checking oil, water and all the necessary bits and pieces before you go out in the morning. Is that right? . Is that done once a day or each driver? Each driver . Each driver. So the fact that the vehicle has been out on shall we a mor a morning delivery and the the back shift man comes in and has a look at it, he would then have to do it all again. Right so we we just we would like to do that bef before we go out. Now the time which erm i is scheduled for around about half a day each. Now obviously commercial requirements might mean that that is modified to some extent. But erm I think last year we w Was it about three hours they went, last year? Do you remember? About three hours wasn't it Dougie? No it was about two. Just about two. Two. Er Two hours . Yeah. It d it did depend on the t run that we had . . Yeah. But erm say this yeah it'll probably follow the same format. And now when we first start off er I know what it's like. It's not very nice when you're driving the vehicle and er I know you're all experienced drivers and then you get somebody sitting there alongside you starting to look at you do, and I I you could've been driving all your life but you still feel a bit edgy and a bit tense. Is that not so? When someone's looking at you . . Yeah. So what we want to do is erm for everybody to drive naturally. You know, not put anything special on because either myself or Stan is sitting alongside you. And er you won't drive naturally for two reasons I suppose. One is that you want to make sure that erm you do everything right. Well that is good. I mean if you're going to sort of er er dr vary your driving a little bit to put in the techniques that you think should be put over, that's good. However sometimes you can fall into the pitfall of doing things erm because you think that we want to see that. And very often we don't. You'd very often be better off driving as you normally drive. Do you follow what I mean? Mhm. Now the other reason why of course you won't perhaps erm drive naturally is because of this little bit of tension at the fact that who's this person sitting here looking at what I'm doing? and it it's putting me off. And that does do that. So to start with what we're doing is just having a little assessment, seeing what sort of driving erm techniques that you have. And also we can have a little chat, providing it doesn't upset any concentration, just to break the ice and settle in and er relax you and to drive normally. And er I say, we're we're not here to er nitpick, picking up every little fault that a driver does going along the road. Cos it doesn't matter who you are or what you are, reverse the roles, everybody makes mistakes when you're driving. So we're not looking for little every little error that a person makes. It's not like a ministry test or anything like that as some of you are are well aware. You're just looking to see if there are any aspects of a person's drive where, you know, one or two habits might have crept in which could possibly encroach upon safety margins to some extent. Or you may sort of erm people who you do the same thing over and over again, the same sort of job, would you not agree a little bit of complacency can set in and erm things don't perhaps come over quite as they should? And so we will try and reestablish and reaffirm the main basic principles to make sure that you maintain proper safety margins and er good reaction time, room to manoeuvre, as we're going through. So that that's all it is. There's nothing t to anybody to get really uptight about. And then we'll carry on er having had a stop and a little chat about different things, we then carry on, and if there are sort of some areas in the drive which we think might sort of erm Come in chaps. Morning. Morning . . . . . much. Thank you very much. I've only just been talking about what we're going to do. Stan at the back, Mick , are the company and I think we met last year didn't we? I think so. Yeah. I think s Oh I can't remember. Some faces you c . No. Anyway. . I missed it. Another one escaped the net last year. . So I was just saying that this year it would be hopefully everybody will go through it. And it will be company policy from now on that it'll be every two years. Alright? The new policy has been formulated. And I'm just going through what we're going to be doing whe on the training day itself, or the assessment day. First of all as I said, we'd like to go through a vehicle check before we go out. Then we'll go out on the road. The first little bit of time is spent just to sort of take it easy, take our time, get to know another, and for us to assess the drive. And then we can pull in or have a stop, probably at the delivery if it's a delivery involved, we can have a little chat about any areas which we can discuss. And then a bit of a roundabout route coming back, trying to get a variety of road, and any areas of the drive which we can look at, we will, discuss amongst ourselves, practise one or two things, maybe one or two little techniques. And then when we come in, the assessment form is written out and erm er there's a marking sheet which I'll I'll sh sh show you before we go out on the road. There's marking sheet, and on the back comments about what we've done and er the standard which you you drive at. Now both Stan and I have the same policy that erm we will write out It takes about ten minutes, or maybe a little bit longer with me, cos I'm not as clever as Stan. It takes a little bit longer for me, but erm we show you then what's on the sheet, so you know what is there. Alright? And then if there's any areas which you want to discuss with us then by all means we can. Right. Any questions about what we're gonna do on the day then? That's just a rough precis about what we're gonna do. Right what we've got t like to sort of talk about now is just one or two aspects ab about defensive driving techniques. Why we do it and and what it's all about. Erm I think th as far as lorry drivers are concerned Stan and I both go around various companies and you are dealing with car drivers, van drivers, large goods vehicle drivers such as yourself, and er it's fair to say that erm there are different levels of ability in each case. But normally you find that erm both Stan and I would consider the large goods vehicles drivers as being the professionals, because you are driving all the time. Would you not agree that your job is driving? Really not much else is it? . Er it is driving. Now you get the car drivers they are not really drivers. They are given a company car to get from A to B, and their main work starts when they get there isn't it? And therefore for for various reasons their interest in driving, in most cases, not all, cos I mean some of them are very good, but in most cases their interest in driving i is is limited to what they're gonna do in their time off. Not an interest in perhaps, bit more depth of thought i in surviving while they're driving. Whereas people such as yourselves er have got two things in mind. You're gonna be on the road, the number of miles you do is obviously going to put you at risk, more than somebody who does a third of your miles. Would you not agree to that? It's not relative, because anybody who does er more er er a great number of miles, then you would i i imagine that because they do this amount of miles that their ability would be overall better because of the experience they gain by doing to extra miles. But i we're all in a in a risk business. And what we say is, and what we're trying to put over, I'm su I'm sure you're fully aware of yourselves,is that it's no good going around driving your drives thinking that it's never going to happen to you. Do you think that's fair comment? Now er with the vehicles on the road today more and more accidents And certainly motorways, and bearing in mind I would imagine, er would it be true to say that the majority of mo driving is done on motorways and dual carriageways? When you get . Mm. So when you get accidents on motorways they're normally pretty horrendous aren't they? It's not just one vehicle involved. And I we just feel that cannot go along thinking it's never gonna happen to you. You we should do something about it. And as a company, whatever other political ideals you have about them , but as a company they are very safety conscious. And erm they are doing whatever they can do just to keep people aware of the need to maintain safety margins. And unless you do something positive yourself to maintain safety margins you're not gonna turn around and say it's not gonna happen to you. The chances are you're more likely to be involved in something. And so the idea of these days is just to reaffirm these erm basic principles of safety. But having done it, having completed the half a day or whatever it is we have, you know it's not really a case of saying Right well that's it. It's something which really should be thought about continuously er and carried on. Which is why of course they've decided on th the grading system that they have, that they want people to achieve perhaps a class one status wherever possible and maintain it. And it will not be maintained really unless that sort of effort is put in throughout the year. So th as far as si Oh excuse me. As far as the risks are concerned then we feel that by adopting a technique, defensive driving technique, that the risks will be calculated more in your favour. Do you not agree with that? So let's drive on the road taking a calculated risk, as opposed to sort of just driving along hoping it's never gonna happen to you and I. Now I'd just like to sort of This is a This is not very clear on here but I would just like to bring out This is an accident which happened down in Kent about two years ago now. And this is er a dual carriageway. It's not motorway. That's the central reservation. But there are no crash barriers down the centre, it's it's straight over. And er this is the way to Dover and the docks, this is the way to London. Nighttime weather conditions good visibility, fine, clear, no real problems. But it was dark. And these this is er a private car going along the road about fifty miles an hour going down towards Dover. Now this is er a lorry,end it's er I think it's a Frenchman. So it's a left hooker, the driver's sitting over there. Now this is a a British lorry coming down in the offside lane, cos it's only two lanes. And erm this one is slowly closing on that one, this one is catching up on this one at quite a rate of knots. And you can tell what's gonna happen can't you ? As this one comes up to this one here, this one then pulls out to overtake this vehicle. And er to avoid a collision and in fact I think they did strike but I'm not really sure, but to avoid a collision this one then goes over the other side of the road, picks up this Ford Orion coming the over way, rolls it over the bank, and it goes underneath the tractive unit of the artic. And consequently this poor guy is killed. Now I I'd just like your your opinions as to what you think that erm you you would How would you think about that as a accident? Was it a Who was to blame, would you think? If we're gonna call it a blameworthy accident. So first of all we'll have a look at a a blameworthy aspect of it, then we'll have a look if whether or not it was avoidable. Can I ask you who you would think would be to blame for that accident? Er overtaking one could have maybe slowed down . Yeah. Would you agree with that? Yeah. Yes. . Mm. I think that as professional drivers we would all w look at that and s and see that Er I mean been out with very many lorry drivers and er that is the way that I've sort of been with the majority of the guys that I've been in. Every now and again you're with somebody who's putting their foot down and either not anticipating enough or not thinking in enough depth, or they might have an attitude whereby sod it, I'm just going anyway. But absolutely right, I mean there the guy should be able to see that this person is closing up on there. And the thing to also as he gets closer, as it's a foreign vehicle he should be able to . clock the? The left-hand drive. Yeah. Clock that it's a left-hand drive, and therefore perhaps give a little bit more consideration to that driver and anticipate the fact that he might come out. Now when the accident was all complete and over and the the tachograph of this vehicle was examined, the speed was I think it was eighty two or eighty three miles an hour Stan wasn't it? Yeah that's right. Now . That's plenty fast enough for a for a thirty-eight-tonne articulated vehicle isn't it? Fully laden. Plenty fast enough. He's got a bit of a roll on going down the hill would you not agree? Now again,that is too fast for an H G V. It's too fast for anybody in some circumstances. But let's face it gents, speed in itself on a completely open road with nobody around is not in itself dangerous, that's down to the individual. I might suggest that perhaps eighty three miles an hour is a bit over the top anyway. But when you've got other moving vehicles around and things which could happen, eighty three miles an hour is far too bloody fast isn't it? Far too fast. So certainly er your point is absolutely right. What so what be p doing then, would be looking, assessing and anticipating that this might happen, and then easing off and an and holding back to see whether A, is he going to come out? or B, is he going to steady? You're satisfied he's staying where he is, before you move through. What about erm any would you say an er blame attached to anybody else? Well er partially in that the lorry that pulled out Yeah. mainly for the boy at the back. Because of his speed and er Th certainly this one here, I mean the Highway Code says that you must make sure that it's safe before you commence an overtaking manoeuvre. And he hasn't done that has he? Erm he's Alright you can excuse the fact that he might be a left-hand drive vehicle. This bloke here has only just come about fifteen miles up the road. He's from his depot. He hasn't come far. No telling us where I don't know this one come but being a foreign driver I mean he he could have from anywhere in the country and he could have been on the road a long time. And the fact that he's a left-hand drive he's erm perhaps not got quite the view out of his offside mirror, or our offside mirror it would be to us, that perhaps somebody like yourselves have with er a right-hand drive vehicle. So he certainly didn't pay due care to the pace and the speed and make sure that he'd got a safe gap before pulling out. So certainly. I think the end result was that erm I say this man was dead so Married man with four children just coming home from work, minding his own business. He got two years for dreath death by reckless driving. This one was done for driving without due care and attention and he got the maximum fine. It was fifteen hundred quid or something like that. But that was the result. Now we've got it erm Are we switched on here Stan? Yeah. Gonna do it for me? Th this is just a a video of the erm accident itself. It only shows you the the aftermath of it,but i it's erm just highlights the point. And when we're talking about defensive techniques, anticipation obviously is one of the things which is the hallmark of the top drivers isn't it? Your degree of anticipation is It's one of the most important things which is going to keep us safe. One of the top skills a driver's got have on a road if he's gonna maintain safety. This guy when he the policeman spoke to him afterwards, his words to the policeman Now let's bear in mind he might have been in shock. His words to the policeman were I like driving fast don't I? . I know but I mustn't say that on here. . This is not for er any sort of This i I'm doing this talk here for erm Stanley's daughter who's at er college, and she likes to hear the sound of my voice when I'm sober. So . If I do say the odd naughty word just scowl at me. . So you can see that er that's the Orion underneath there. They're just zooming into it there. It's absolutely smashed to pulp. It took three hours to get what was left of the body out. That's a job in itself then. N Yeah . Mm. If you think of the trauma on the people who have to deal with that . aye. Now you never forget those sort of things. Yeah. Cos both Mick Aye. and I were used to do that sort of work, and er you can remember every incident. Particularly those that very harrowing. You never really forget them. I know those pictures there are just showing you the result of something but you know when we discuss erm er a p er a situation it's not a theoretical situation, it's something which happened, something that does happen. And erm you know as lorry drivers, we we class ourselves as the professionals of the road,but at the end of the day our standards or our reputation is tarnished by the actions of a few isn't it? And I'm sure that when we go down the road we can Although i we're always ready to look at erm car drivers and some of the stupid things they do and some of the stupid things that they do which annoy us, at the end of the day w you've still got to bear in mind that erm there are people in our own fraternity, as it were, that er don't do as they should. . But let's see just see the number plate on it underneath there the . cab's rolled right over the top. Sometimes these blokes they have just to commit one particular error, resulting in a action like that. . And erm Just that one wee mistake . That's all it needs. That's right . Having said that, the tachograph of that particular vehicle illustrated that as far as the speed was concerned it wasn't one isolated incident. In other words he was consistently at that i part on that particular day, . without backtracking on previous ones, on that particular day he was pushing it. . For whatever reason. And the reason doesn't matter as Mick has said because we're talking about the situation and the man's attitude of mind at that particular time. All that's all that it needs you know, for him to alter his attitude. Right. So when we're talking about defensive driving and we're talking about safety, which is the main object of all this,to keep yourself safe one of the most important things is the attitude of the individual, would you not agree? And it's the attitude I think that very often causes everything from a major accident like that where someone loses their life, and very often to the small little scrape on a lorry which occurs in a in a in a yard. The attitude of the driver. Bit too fast, bit too blase, whatever the case may be. Having said that,I've been on some of the deliveries that you guys have to do, and some of the places where you have to go into, and er I fully appreciate it's not easy. And the fact that I say that a lot of these accidents happen because perhaps you're not paying the attention, very often I've been or know of situations where the bloke is really paying attention to what he's doing and the still the unfortunate occurs. So I'm I don't want to sit here holier than thou, start preaching that erm you know things are not going to happen, because we're all human and we all make errors. But erm we could cut down an awful lot of these accidents and erm it doesn't matter at the end of the day what level it is. Cos the end result Th the potential is always there. Do you follow what I mean? The end result might only be a slight scratch, but the potential might have been in that situation for something a lot worse. So it's it's always there. And attitude is the thing which erm we look at quite closely, and I think you must consider your attitude. For instance, a person who naturally er y has a got a bit of a short fuse. Now that very often, you get that sort of individual, their attitude could at some or other be detrimental to their standard of driving. Would you not agree with that? So she other thing is you get p some people who are naturally aggressive. Car drivers for instance, you you get car you the Your neighbour is probably the nicest bloke you've ever met in your life. Soon as he gets behind the wheel of a car he's an absolute dickhead. Taxi drivers. . . You probably know a few.. . What are you looking at me for? . . We must have touched a little spot there I think Stan. . So th this a aggressive attitude. Now the other way of course which your attitude can er be affected is that you're probably yourself quite a relaxed steady sort of guy, but do you respond, do you react to the antics of another road user? In other words, someone throws down the gauntlet, do you pick it up? You know we've all see th t One we've discussed a couple of times. Down the motorway, say just two lanes, or whatever, roadworks ahead, all moving down, the offside lane closes in eight hundred yards, six hundred yards, and you're going along in your lorry and the cars going . Two hundred yards,,still going by . Three inches. They're still gonna try and get by if they can. Now very often I c you can understand it can't you that these people And you're in the queue. You you're sort of just stopping and starting, stopping and starting as the others are going down. And you could quite rightly think, Why don't they take their turn? Now you could react in two ways. There's the one coming down, right at the last minute, wants to get in at th the very last minute. You've got two options. The o . . What was that Dougie? Oh sorry, I mustn't mention the name.. . That's right. You can, as I said just now, pick up the gauntlet and say squeeze him out and force him through the cones and whatever thing might result of that, you just don't know, or you can say, Well alright, ease off,go on, you have the space, I don't really need it, I'm not in a hurry. Now the the correct attitude we all know is the one where you ease off. And I suggest to you gents, that's the only way you can drive without getting involved in something. Cos the minute you react to what that person's doing, your involved and y and you're as bad as he is. So The other thing you've got to think about, if you do react the wrong way, and we've probably all been tempted to at times if we haven't done it, but if you do react the wrong way,consider who is that person coming by? You think it could possibly be, and it may well be, some rep, in his car, rushing from here to there, don't give a toss about anybody else, as long as he gets where he wants to go. And that is in your mind when you react the other way. Would you not agree? Have you ever considered to stop to think, well it it might be your son, your daughter, who's just passed their test,and that's doing this in er and just doesn't know any better. I mean because motorways can be quite frightening to people who've just passed their test. And they get themselves in situations don't they, inexperienced drivers? Which they wish to God they'd never got into. So it might be with a bit of help from you,y you could teach them a valuable lesson. I it may not be the case, but I think it's possibility you've got to consider, isn't it? That by easing off, holding back, you could teach them a valuable lesson and they they'd sit there And you've seen them sometimes, when they come alongside you and they're forced and th they don't what to and they look up and go . There's fear, they're pale. And er so I think there's a thing you could think of there is that, who is this person doing this? It might not be the dickhead you think it is. It might be a lady driver with a couple of children in the car, again doing her incompetent best. So I'd just ask yourself the question before you react untoward towards a situation like this. worth the hassle. Sorry? Is it worth the hassle? Well that alone. That alone. Because at the end of the day, if something does happen you've got all this filling in to do and you might well turn around and say It wasn't my fault, you could turn around and say it was their fault for coming by. But was this situation avoidable? . It's worse when and you go . . I'd just like to sort of show you And th this is a . You've probably seen this have you? Yes. It's an accident on the M Six, and er now if you look there in a moment you'll see a car come out of control up through there. Is that rain? That's rain, yeah. Look, see he's just he pry trying to brake. Look at the van on Oh . the central reservation. Everyone's trying to brake and get out of the way. Now that starts it. Look at the white van on the right . . Now obviously he's got nowhere to go. Now watch the white van in the middle. He can't stop. Now look at the fast lane at them all pi piling in the back . Oh dear! Oh dear. Oh! That one goes right across . . Ooh he just managed to make it. That's for all the people a couple of miles up the road. Now look at Right at the very back, at the back . Er right at the top there you'll see an artic jackknife right into the back. See him going across there? . Right across the carriageway. Well that's effectively brocked that hasn't it. Mm. Doesn't take long does it? No. Attitude play a bit of a part in that ? . Hadn't noticed that. . It could have been. The film is . probably a couple or three years old now, and it was Right. taken by . Sixth of August ninety. Wish you could do that here. That'd be fine. Aha. Turn it all back. Start again. The first guy who slipped there, probably these people that s maybe one or two in his . What one? What one? And then this Yeah. . As well as . looking at those that were involved in the accident look how close look how close . they are there. Aye. But look at some of the others. You'll s . That guy I mean he was winging it. He he was He just couldn't stop so he swerved out you see and lost control . Mm. He was so close. Aye. And er he he realized too late . . H I was gonna say, look at that lorry up there, which is probably this one. Now er some of them can stop you see. Mm. Yeah. Some can stop. Coming down through there, at the top there, I think we've probably missed them now. Th there er look. Now he's . coming down quite steady. There are some of . those are driving quite sensibly and can stop. he shunted up behind . What we're trying to say gents is that a situation like this, the best driver in the world really y you you could get involved in something. But you can take efforts, you can make the effort yourself to keep yourself safe. Separation distance. is the mo Especially in that sort of weather. You've gotta keep well back. You've gotta give yourself that time to react and that room to manoeuvre. And if you've got somebody right up your bum keep further space so that you can lead them into a situation safely, as opposed to sort of having a anchor on yourself. . Now i it's the sort of thing that you y you read about, you pick up the the paper, you put n news on, and Nasty accident on the M Eight or M Six, whatever the case may be, and a lot of vehicles are involved. So the lesson to be learnt from that is that erm it's not always possible to keep yourself out of trouble, but you can do what you have to do to keep yourself safe by maintaining a proper separation distance. And bearing in mind when you get that sort of weather, the separation distance has to be double. Do you know what th we mean by the two-second rule? No. If you pass a too fast. That's right. And for lorries they say four seconds. Which should be in some cases be doubled in very bad weather like that. Now obviously the you could see the cars in that fast lane there, they were just nose to tail, nose to tail. And you can see them like that every day you drive down a motorway. But stop and think gents. have you ever seen lorry drivers like that? Mhm. Mm. Mhm. Now . . A lot of people would turn round and say Right I'm a lorry driver and I I leave a nice gap. What happens to the gap? . Somebody will pull int between it. But then you might feel that you're going backwards but you still just modify your position to keep that gap there. And just ask yourselves the question when another lorry's coming by you, what do you do when he's just clear? Flash . Flash him to let him come in ? . And when he comes in what have you done to your safety distance? . So again, it's a thing which you might consider when you're er letting vehicles come in front and er I the rights and wrongs of erm flashing lights, er really the only flashing lights should take the place of a horn. That is the Highway Code's erm system for flashing signals. Y drivers, we know they have their own code,and er what we say is, although we perhaps don't agree with it ourselves, you do it. All we say is that just be a little bit more considerate about when you do do it. Don't go along the road trying to keep yourself a nice separation distance and as soon as the tail end of another lorry has passed you flash him in and then you're like this. Consider delaying the flash till he's gone by a bit further or whatever the case may be. And there's no doubt about it the flashing of the lights is is a beneficial thing. Especially I mean you're in the nearside And you've got limiters fitted now have you all of you? . You're in the nearside lane and you're going uphill and er you're trunking away quite nicely, you see a guy coming down in the fast lane, down the hill getting a bit of a roll on, fully laden, and he gets halfway up the hill, he runs out of steam and he's looking for a hole to get into. So as a l fellow lorry driver you would probably think Well I'll ease off, and when you think you've got a gap there you give him a flash, Okay mate, you can come in now. Now he he's quite erm receptive of that isn't he? He's quite pleased to think that someone's given him a hole to get into. So that's nothing wrong, I mean that's fine. But just consider as I say, when you flash people, that you've got to maintain the separation distance. Now th there's two things we want the separation distance for, and one of them, as you say, is time to react React. and to stop. What's the other reason we want er a nice separation distance between ourselves and the vehicle in front for? Probably even more important to some extent. So as you can see . So that you can see. Obviously when you're driving along the road the observation y wants to be up the road as far as it possibly can be. And er therefore if you can see mile, half a mile,quarter of a mile up the road, you can see other vehicles slowing down, brake lights coming on. You don't need the brake lights of the guy in front of you to tell that he's gonna stop, you've anticipated that in a minute this guy's gonna stop so you you're already er braking and slowing down. Now if you just pull in a little bit too close, it's a natural reaction of the body to direct the eyes at the vehicle which is going to cause you the danger. And even though you may physically be able to see up the road your eyes won't be looking there. And then So now you're travelling a little bit too close, your eyes are glued on the back of the vehicle in front, what's the sort of feeling you get? A little bit tensed up? And i you're a bit on edge? And yet people you see them, lorry drivers and car drivers, but lorry drivers themselves, they're happy to go along the road at fifty sixty miles an hour with such a short distance between themselves and the vehicle in front. And the thing is when these sort of trailers and boxes like you've got on there, you just can't see. And people are quite happy to do that, and there's te the the the stress and the the tension must build up inside. And er as probably er you gathered Stan and I are both ex-policemen in relation to erm to er our our background and er I think I said yesterday to the er some of the guys as well, one of the things that lorry drivers and policemen do have very much in common is that we have pr probably one the shortest erm pension lives of most professions. . And it's because of the tensions, the adrelion , and the old bloody heart keep going. And as it t as er as you get on in later life, you know it tells on you. So let's sort of think about attitude, keep back, keep ourselves safe. You're a lot less stressful,you get to the end of your journey a lot fresher. You can take a journey of three hundred miles if you like. One guy's a bit of a teararse. Pushing on, pushing on. The other guy takes his time. . The difference in the overall running time will be negligible. All the guy who's pushing on has done is got from one holdup to the next holdup quicker than the next feller. I think that's fair to say that, do you not? One guy's got there thinking Cor! Let's go and have a fag I need something I've worn out, had a hard day's work. The other guy will rea really get out of his cab and think Well well we've got here now, go and have a cup of tea. All goes over his head. Do you think there's any value in that? Just like to show you a couple of videos now. We're talking about attitude. Now th the first one is erm What is the first one Stan? . This is er . a personal carrier. Oh no. The first one is a bloke wants to overtake. Lorry in front, car in front of him, and he's number three. And he's so desperate to overtake. And the position he goes at. You could be a lorry coming the other way. Again it's attitude. You see the lorry up the front? You see the one just pulling out? Now that was Now look at the vehicles coming the other way and there's a car in front of the opposing lorry. . What a plonker. Now he went completely blind didn't he? That lorry braked as well. The one coming the other way. Yeah. . I think he's passing two. I think he's passing them both on the same time . Mm. . Three of them. . Look at this. Now this is a van,load it's a it's a personnel carrier. A load of schoolchildren going on a day out. Now he starts to overtake, and you'll see there's a sou sign on the left, a roundabout sign they're approaching. He's go no hole to get into and pr looks there the person not letting him in. So he stays out to the centre. So again he's approaching the roundabout and he wants to go straight on, so he's completely in the wrong position. And what does he gain? Why didn't he just stay where he was behind the vehi Everyone else was taking their time. Now watch as he goes round the roundabout. . Now he's on his way now, yes let's get through here, we can't hang about here, let's get through and away. . Now as he comes out of the roundabout he starts overtaking down the offside of those vehicles. Which throws him He's got no view there has he? No view whatsoever. And as you'll see in a moment he's completely on the wrong side of the road. Now what if something had been coming the other way? Another lorry? Agai overtook completely blind. Attitude? It's gotta be hasn't it really? Mm. Just an aggressive pushing attitude. Now you'll see the speed in the bottom left-hand corner. Now this guy is er out for a little afternoon run on his motorbike. . . Now the thing is, you'll see in a moment there' some lorries. You'll see some lorries up the top, one of the being an N F T lorry. I think you might find one of the lorries is overtaking the other one. And er he's being followed by an unmarked police car. And you can see What have got up to? Oh we're just just getting into four gear now I think. . Now there're the lorries, and the see the N F T just up there going round the bend . must be going . . No that's a policeman. His hands er s he's a bit worried. . . Now he he's gotta find somewhere to go so where's the only p place that's clear? The hard shoulder. . Now as he comes in front of that lorry back onto the carriageway, if the one that was over taking suddenly decides to pull back in his mate having flashed him, the value of a nearside mirror? Mind you, you'd have to be quick wouldn't you? Cos he'd be . Look and he's gone, up through there. . Now er See all the flashing lights of the vehicles there, they're they're so incensed they're flashing their lights all over the shop at him er as he goes Mm . through. But he actually went through between those two goods vehicles. Came up and shot in and then went round. . And, additionally, there's an intersection there. You know an exit. Mm. Now you s there's a situation where that was attitude absolutely stupid. The num amount of vehicles which were around. Now this one is speed in itself. Not the erm complication of of vehicles to the extent we saw with the motorcycle film just now, but this is erm again The the police car is staying well back cos he's following this vehicle you can see a hundred and thirteen, well the speed's gets up to about a hundred and forty in a moment as you'll see. . It's a s a straightforward er an M R Two. . This is a S er Opal Senator or a Vauxhall Carlton with a Senator engine. And he's following er a Toyota M R Two. And er th th this guy . has got his nine-year-old son in the car and he's showing his son how fast his new car's gonna go. Still not making a lot of impression on this guy . . Where is it? H h he's just he's right in the distance. In fact the camera can't quite pick him out. As I say the Now what was he going at that speed for? Just to show his son how fast his new car's gonna go. Er but how long was he doing it for? Well look er Th this was more or . less shows you the whole of the chase. But th that's actually they followed him for about ten miles . So he's done that for five minutes there. So anyway we I've got it here somewhere. So er just a just a few instances o of of actual film of things which happen on the road which depict attitude. Any comments on what we've got there? Now they're sort of things that you've probably seen yourself quite frequently I would think. So the other The main thing we're thinking about then, with the defensive driving technique, one of the most important things is attitude. So naturally we'll be looking to see the attitude of a guy when we're sitting there . . That's it, thanks. What was that one? That's the erm car in the A and the double white lines system, We'll show you this one in a minute, and coming the other way you will see there's an overtake. And th I'm sure every one of you have been in that situation where somebody's suddenly popped out and committed themself to an overtake and they've got nowhere to go at all. And that's a prime example of it. And you see the accident with the car driver when the brakes come on. But watch where the brakes come on. In other words, if the bloke hadn't have got back there would've been a f a total impact. Cos he wou his reaction time, understandably, cos he wasn't expecting it,ce happened like that and hi his reaction time was too slow to compensate for the stupidity of the bloke coming the other way. But you'll you'll all recognize the situation. . After this one it runs into one with a car er car transporter. The attitude of a lorry driver which you can have a look at . Here he comes look. Watch the bloke coming up there. Now here he is, look, see? Now see how the brake lights? Ooh. Now phew! the brake lights are that there. far too late, cos he he didn't couldn't And I'm not criticizing See the van dri the fact just a a question of the bloke didn't have time. You know, didn't have the time Mm. to react. Completely overtaking against th o over the double white line in all that traffic. There er here's a situation with this er er rather aggressive attitude of a car transporter driver. Now he's overtaking because he can't see but nevertheless Look at the gap there. The slightest movement with those . three lorries and there's a real shitcart isn't there? What's the safety margins there? Think of the turbulence between those vehicles there, you know the air displacement as they pass. It's thirty seven miles an hour. Not fast, but it's fast enough for that sort of distance between each oth I bet shitting themselves. . . He found out what colour adrenalin was when he got home. . Now you'll see him in a moment, he this guy driving he wants to go off on a slip road. And it's one of those slip roads where you off and other people join at the same place. But he's not g Cumbernauld. He's not intere Er yeah, Cumbernauld's a typical example of this. Aye. But he's not g no give and take with this guy, he's just taking advantage of his size. Er and he's going You watch in moment the way he S see there's the one trying to come out, look. Look. And he got straight in front there. There now watch and see the how he misses the central reservation, those bollards. Now if that car had pushed on and didn't brake when he did, that driver would either have taken car out or the keep left bollards wouldn't he? His speed was such he didn't approach it at a speed where he could erm er l lay off and er let something happen. So they're just examples of attitude gents, which And it's attitude which causes the problems. If you have a more considerate attitude one where you're going to sort of give way to people, show a little bit more consideration to other road users, I think you'd find that it's gonna it pays off. Right very briefly, we've been here a little while now, is erm we're just gonna a little talk about the other aspects of what we call a defensive driving technique. Have we got something on there Stan? No that's the fog one . The erm? Fog. Yeah thanks. We'll show that in a minute . Yeah. So what a el else are we gonna to be looking for? When we're talking about defensive driving, attitude plays a big part. The other thing we're looking at of course is your technique as a driver. Now the technique that you employ driving your vehicle is divided into two parts. How you control the vehicle and how you read the road ahead. Now controlwise, we can look at various things, and I think last year we had various discussions on different things, but, naturally, you're looking for smooth, positive control of the vehicle. A nice balance between clutch and throttle. Now I know that now you've got or two erm splitter boxes, yes? And clutches not necessarily all the time? But nevertheless, a nice balance can be obtained by giving that split time to get in. If you rush it too much you can very often find you're in a false neutral can't you or whatever the case may be? Then you've got to start again to try and get it. Invariably it's done through bad timing or trying to rush it. Not always. It does a little bit of technique to get used to these things, I ag I agree. But So we're looking for a nice balance between clutch and throttle, that you're not being jerked and the not clutch is not bloody flying every time that you take let your foot to engage a gear. Nice balance of steering. The steering should always be smooth, progressive, and accurate. It's gonna get your vehicle where it wants to go. Now steering on its own can very often be complicated by other aspects such as your correct speed for the situation. Co that can affect your steering can't it? If you're sort of travelling a bit too fast, you've gotta rush your steering, things might not be right. But your er basic style of steering, and naturally we come from a training establishment, we think and we practise the push-pull method. We think that is the best method. Because it's the most accurate, it's the smoothest and you're always in a position to respond should you want more or less steering. If you go over the top, underneath or palm, you are not. Er plus the fact your hands could slip off the wheel or or whatever. So we er advocate this. But we we s we know that people have their own styles. You might have been driving for years by going over the top of the wheel as a lot of lorry drivers do. So although we think that our method is best, we fully realize that you've got styles, things th which you've built up over many years. And providing your steering is smooth,positive and accurate,then we accept it. It's no real problem. So we realize we're not gonna be here to change the habits that have built up over a lifetime. You can't change habits like that b in two or three hours. But if there was an aspect of your steering like erm Is there any more last minute entry for the quiz? Okay, sit, sit still, be quiet and listen to this, you ready? Question one which of Britain's colonies is most populated? Okay if it's any help just look at the opening tonight, nothing tricky that, it's just er which of Britain's colonies is the most populated? Question two, which city did Lady Godiva ride naked through the streets of? I'm sure you know the story, which city did Lady Godiva ride naked through the streets of? Coventry. And number three whose was the signet ring which is sometimes known as the fisherman's ring? Okay, whose was the signet ring sometimes known as the fisherman's ring? Question four, fashion model and T V presenter Marie Helvin was married to which famous photographer? Maybe if you think along the lines of fashion That's the only one I know er I'm not supposed to give clues, okay fashion model and T V presented Marie Helvin was once married to which famous photographer? I can see we're having difficulty with these questions no it's just the answers, okay, question five, now this one's easy if you're a surgery, if you have a tracheotomy, where would you show off the scar? Okay The neck if you've had a tracheotomy where would you show off the scar? Question six okay for anybody who's interested in eating, as we are, pate de foie gras is made from what? Right we'll be even more specific right, a help for ya, pate de foie gras is made from the liver of what? Right, can't get any easier than that do you want it again? Right, okay question number seven which substance used to be known as brimstone? Okay it's, shall we say a mineral? I shall which substance used to be known as brimstone? she's giggling again, what the questions are a bit difficult? No, too easy, question eight, in Britain we play draughts what do the Americans call the game? Checkers. Okay in Britain we play draughts, what do the Americans call the same game? Brimstone I dunno what it is Question nine, M G sports cars, famous in Britain, what does the M G stand for? I think everybody knows M G sports cars, what does the M G stand for? And question ten in medical terms tetanus is better known by what name? Okay to you and me tetanus is known by what? question eleven, what is the length of time of an association football match? Okay Ninety minutes. an F A football match, what is the length of time of an F A football match? question twelve who hosts the T V programme, sorry T V quiz The Krypton Factor? who hosts the T V quiz The Krypton Factor? number thirteen, okay I'll be very surprised if you don't know this one, who painted the Mona Lisa? again, who painted the Mona Lisa? question fourteen Middlesex Street in London has a very famous market, okay, better known as which market? Middlesex Street in London has a very famous market and the street's better known by this name, what is it? and question fifteen, right listen carefully which of the following names is not a bone in the body a femur, patella, radius, cornea or temporal Cornea. so you've got a choice of five, one of them is not a bone, which is it? Femur, patella, radius, cornea or temporal It's radius innit? Final section questions sixteen to twenty question sixteen which country is the world's leading coffee producer? Okay, I've said go for the obvious ones didn't I? Which country is the world's leading Could be coffee producer? either Brazil or Kenya Question seventeen Coffee producer the Pyrenees mountain range lies between which two countries? Okay and we want 'em both no half points for this What is it? The Pyrenees mountain range lies between which two countries? Question eighteen, in which book would you find the character Long John Silver? Desert Island er not Desert Island okay, in which book would you find the character Long John Silver? Question nineteen which letter of the English language is most used? E Which letter of the English language is the one we use most? I'd say E I don't know And finally question twenty, which country uses the Drachma as its unit of Greece currency? Okay again, the final question number twenty, which country uses the Drachma as its unit of currency? Cross it out you plonker Question six, pate de foie gras is made form the liver of, okay literary of a fat goose, but we accepted goose alright, so pate de foie gras from a goose liver. Question seven, which substance used to be known as Brimstone? That's sulphur I'd erm cod liver oil. question eight, in Britain we play the game draughts, in America the same game is called checkers er, number nine, one or two of you got it right, most of you caught out with M G sports cars, the M G actually stands for Morris Garages Ah got that one oh shit Okay, you got half, you got Morris, question ten, tetanus is better known by what name to you and me it's lock jaw, at least if you've ever had it, it is, question eleven what is the length of time of an of an F A football match? Ninety minutes, excluding injury time and all that stuff, ninety minutes, question twelve, who hosts the T V quiz The Krypton Factor?, that's Gordon Burns question thirteen, who painted the Mona Lisa? Leonardo de Vinci fourteen, Middlesex Street in London has a very famous market lends its name to the street it's Petticoat Lane question fifteen, which of them is not a bone, okay, we, we asked you which of these is not a bone, a femur, a patella, radius, cornea or temporal, the one is cornea, that's part, that's part of the eye question sixteen, which country is the world's leading coffee producer? I said go for the obvious one Brazil question seventeen, the Pyrenees mountain range lies between which two countries? France and Spain, okay, if you only got one of those countries right we couldn't give you the point, it has to be both, question eighteen, in which book would you find the character Long John Silver? Treasure Island What? it on. He's got my hand Be quiet. Shut up just forget it. The microphone keeps on fucking falling off. Jolly good. What do you think it is, it's a bloody microphone isn't it. well why do you microphone Ow, ow Why do the squash, why do they crush, why do they . sorry Ow down your . Knelt on it. Now somebody'll turn it up. Oh my knee hurts . Why are Shut up. You tell them Bonnie, you tell them. I've got to I've got to fill out this little booklet as well. Are you coming? To the Electric Ballroom I dunno. It depends Yeah. Depends depends on what everyone else is doing I dunno. It depends it all depends on whether Emma gives me my money. Didn't give you any money then? Well I I can't say give me your money when she hasn't got it can I . Yeah, but she gets more allowance this week cos she was supposed to give me bloody thirty five quid she owes me. She owes you what? Thirty seven quid. For the bat? Well she hasn't spent it it's in her bank account. Right everybody act like normal I hope so. No,that's what you've got to do. Pretend it's not there. Oh dear. Conversation partners relationship to yourself. what it is but Oh, it's cold. Are you recording yourself, or are you recording everyone else? Everyone and myself. What? hear me Well I don't bloody know I I'll listen I'll listen to it about later and see what it is. So can we just sort of forget it's there. Yeah Such a good registration. No no running around on the Can we get dressed? No you can't window. What the hell are you talking about? Oh I am so bloody hungry. Get it then. If he likes to show off his long slender legs.. Oh have you got a have you got them?pictures of Danny, Alex and erm Mohammed and Peter and Tom and Abdullah. Yeah and Abdullah. Well they haven't come back from the shop yet. Yeah. What, when, where, how? Hey, Liam, have you got any more of these? Can I have one? They look nice. Yeah, oh who's making a squeaking noise oh this stupid thing. . Oh God don't ask her. All it is yeah, is a project yeah that six peo me and other five other people yeah in the school were asked to do yeah for a university which is studying ch er children's language yeah and what it's like and basically I've got to carry it on me for a weekend yeah, record loads of different conversations on ten different tapes Are you doing it now? and erm yeah, so basically just forget it's there okay, you don't have to say anything particular like you know. Yeah. And so's Josie, Josie's gonna No I'm supposed to say it, you're supposed to say this is a walkman And then no-one can That's a point I think I'll or bloody earphones on. interested you know, there's always fucking universities No, it is quite it's gonna be quite fun. Yeah, but's gonna Just put it on and then Excuse me, what me. I've got a microphone stud on my nipple, yeah What? Silicone implant. Wicked. You know what I've gotta bloody do yeah, to bring this back yeah, they've asked me yeah to get up at ten thirty in the morning and go to the school on Monday when I could be lying in bed. Oh, no. No, because I thought wicked you know, I've for Monday I get to bloody fucking lie in bed and then like I have to go to flipping school and bloody give it back. What are you doing on Monday? nothing What then? nothing Oh, bloody well, just shut up. Shut up. And I can speak for myself thank you very much. We never had our women's night in did we? No we still haven't had a women's night and I don't think we probably ever will have. Yeah we got to, it'll be wicked. If Dan wasn't going out with Honey, they might have got it sorted out but Cassie have you got any crisps? Fuck off No I haven't got any crisps now go away. What are they then? Eat your own bloody crisps. I nearly walked right up to it cigarette, cigarette, cigarette. Cassie, can I sit on your jacket my bum is getting wet. Tough titty. Please. Now can I have my jacket, you just dropped my bag across the bloody park give me a cigarette now Liam. Turn it round this way please. No. God you are so much everybody. Well why does everyone use my packed lunch box, there's a rubbish bin, it doesn't make sense. No I've just come back to it and I find my lunch box overflowing with crisp packets. Ow, ooh stabbed by something. By a Fucking . I found a photo of you. Where? Er I dunno, I just found it in one of my What? In one of our photo packs. So you've got photographs of me? You're joking. Oh bring it in. Oh let me bloody see Cassie. Cassie. No,I'm trying Can everyone be careful not to sit on my coat I have another walkman in my pocket. All right? The one you're not supposed to have. What? The one you're not supposed to have. Yeah the one I'm not supposed to have . Out, out out get out of my . I wanna see that I want some chilli. No, mum's made me this really nice chilli yesterday and I want it now. Oh did you go back to Yeah. Probably go home and do my bloody homework. What? Er I might come for a little while. What? Yeah, just anything at all yeah. Don't mean you can come up to me and say can I have ten grams of smack please Cassie all right. Ow. What? Arms. Arms. Arms. Arms. what all that crap erm no thank you I'd rather not be degraded like that. Now I'm gonna turn it off for a little while until everyone starts having a proper conversation. Huh? . They taste nice think I'll have another one. No you won't I'm handing then Look just packet of crisps you'd give out the whole packet. you're kinky, you've very skinny. . Cor blimey matron. Yes, I've got a tit there, a tit there and a tit there. Who said my name? Oh Meg, Meg. Could you All right erm did you give me the sixty minute or ninety minute do you know? Bum. Are you going to the tonight? I'll ask him tonight. All right I'll bring in a sixty minute tape ask him tonight, okay and I'll bring in a sixty and a ninety minute, okay. I need to and what are you doing in my bag you nosy cow. Has anyone got anything to drink around here anyone got any coke or something? Yeah. Cheers. What? Thanks. Alice my friend give me a cookie please. Oh you tart. Erm is there a band practice today? You think so? It's about a twenty minute long band practice that's about how long it usually bloody is. Hey, do these things make funny whistling noises? Peter. Peter, do these things make funny whistling noises? Yes, yes, yes What's this about? Oh Geena Davis she's so blimey. Who is it? Eddie Williams. Who's Eddie Williams. Fucking hell that dress is that dress is just so you look at my tits and my crap figure. Geena Davis is so pretty. Oh well look at her she's horrible. No but I just I think she's so pretty though especially in Thelma and Louise. Jodie Foster's absolutely revolting and what Richard Gere is in. Robert you think I'm a cross between Amanda de Cadenet and Michelle Pfeiffer? Are you oh you've put it on now. Yeah I have got it on at the moment. Is it whistling or is it me? I'll move I'll move around yeah. Does it make whistling noises? Oh, I don't give a shit. What. Where's Peter. Who's heard the band New Order? Band New Order. New Orders on. Oh, Regret. You know the bit at the beginning goes or something stupid like that. It's no it's crap erm Petie Peter Peter Are we supposed to talk about these things while we've got them on because I do. Well because everybody keeps coming up to me and asking questions so I can't help it. people talking about it. Is it me or do they whistle a lot? What? Is it me or do they whistle? You fool, turn it on now. Well why's he doing it? Why's he doing it? Erm me, Josie, Peter, Grace, Antony and Robert. Are you Yeah. Huh? I I I wanna watch that video. What is it, what's it about? Oh well they're bloody playing football again aren't they, fucking poofters. No, I bet they're playing football with the dikes. So what. Oh dear. What time is it? I need to go and have a conversation with someone . I haven't heard it yet have I. Let me hear it. Oh, no I'll let you listen to it later, I can't be bo I've only just played it and I'm recording at the moment so, I'll let you listen to it in a while. I'll le I'll let you listen to it after school okay. privilege. What? Yeah I know cos I've only just started recording again look I'll let you listen to it in a while all right?wait that long. Has she got a like has she got like talcum powder all over her body as well? Looks a bit lethargic if you ask me. Oh yes please. You think she's pretty? Madonna? Yeah she's pretty I mean like she looks better with brown hair though. My brother Brother what? Huh? . You on at it, get in there, shag him. . You rude tart. Cigarette back. Why are you and James cuddling up to each other, you going out with each other, or you just a friendly hug? something don't you Cass. Huh? You'd have to say something. I'm blatant and I'm damn proud of it matey. makes a lot of bloody sense. I thought I'd You thought you were going out with Ashley? No Iodin about Ashley. No good running when I talk to you. Bonjour. Going say it go on Bonjour. Co my mum has a small shop in the South of France? North of France. North of France. So I just get it cos I've only heard you say that before I don't actually really know what it meant. Oh look, they're engaged now. bloody arse is stuck in his face. Do you reckon Alice is Yeah. Probably just flirting actually. Yeah. What? No,with Alex with Alice, if she wasn't flirting with him cos he hasn't he's not Yeah I now, but Has he? Well he don't fancy me. I know I don't fancy you . What do you mean, I said no I thought he doesn't fancy everybody. Yeah. No but he doesn't fancy me he said. a bit. What? Well maybe ages ago, but like you know when David told me to fuck off and die really seriously and I thought that's nice. Probably because you was going out you were going out with and then he was really really disappointed. Oh that looks really nice Rosie. Dunno. Hey? It's a bit difficult er Catherine. I can't because of this fucking new computer system innit. Oh Yeah I've bloody got to haven't I. How long are we gonna be at because like I wanna go home and like Yeah I know, don't you think it's out of order right that we er that we erm cos he said it's only gonna be on Thursdays right and sometimes Tuesdays and it's every fucking week. I know and like on Thursday yeah I mean we're gonna be there for about an hour and a half probably yeah, and I wanna go home and I wanna drop my bag off and I wanna change my clothes and that's gonna be like seven o'clock or eight o'clock like cos I wanna come round to band practice tomorrow and I won't get there until bloody eight o'clock and miss half my bloody weekend. I wonder if he can hear right. Hey? Philip. Oh look look you can hear what everyone's saying Oi, Oi,. Liam I can hear everything you're saying on this Meg you know, really clearly . You know you can hear everyone talking at the same it's recording at the same time you can hear everyone talking like sort of really clearly. In a way it sounds sort of No, I can't hear anything. Oh, it doesn't matter. Put it on. Hello. Hello, hello see it sounds sort of like like you're listening to the tape, but it Don't say anything a minute. Hello, hello, can you hear me then? Would you be able to hear me through that? Would I be able to hear you through that, yeah. Mm. I I could hear Meg talking a minute ago to me. I can hear everyone talking around me. lovely. Lovely. Lovely jubbly. I dunno if I'll be able to I dunno if I wanna tomorrow or not. Why well who's going, you and Honey? Yeah, and maybe Lucy I like Lucy actually she's really coo cool she is. I dunno i if everyone else is not doing anything, then I'll come. Like if there's something better going on I suppose I dunno. and then like like even if I still have to go cos . Well just say just say no, cos I mean she can't like fucking rule your life. No if Is Dan? I don't know he might be. Well wh what's going on this weekend do you know? Well like what are the band doing after practice, are they doing anything, they're probably all going on to the Cutty Sark at Greenwich or something. Who's t-shirt's that Alex? Go on get your trousers off. Watch out for the lasses . How did you manage to Alex how did you manage to get it off him? It just pulled it off him and he didn't even fight back. Oh I see Whoah look at those rippl look at that rippling torso, rippling or whatever the words are. look at that chest with no hair . . Oh No. What? God knows what Mick's gonna do . Gonna fall over . Thing's so annoying. Well at least if you did put it back on you're gonna be warmer. I'm absolutely freezing come to think of it. Sam what are you listening to? Oh bloody fucking shite hard core isn't it. What is it? What is this it or was that it? This is the cover you mean you mean the cover. News at Ten I need your loving. Catherine, I mean Bonnie. Bonnie don't you think we should get a few more people to go to . What? Well it would be more fun if there was more people. Well Melissa's cool and Crystal's a bit crap and Catherine's all right. Yeah Give me this a minute.. Is your mum gonna hear that? What? Do I let my mum hear it? Yeah. She knows what I talk like anyway, so it doesn't really matter. Sorry sorry does your mum know you smoke? Yeah. Does your mum know you take a t trip? Yeah. Does your mum know about you. No doesn't even know I was born . My why's my arse Yes I'm very freezing. Freezing, I'm gonna put my coat on. Gonna put my coat on. Oh oh my arse hurts my bum. Alice those socks are way too small for you. Are they? Huh? Can't I got walkman yeah right, and listening to hardcore put the earphone up cos there's a bit of hardcore on the What? Boo What? I've just gotta have to sort of make it up. I've got to listen through the tape yeah. go back to school. What now? Yeah. Why? After, after lunch. Whoa. After lunch. I dunno but it just that it's so difficult to get away with it these days. Say you had to go to a dental appointment. Bloody easy. Why why why is it okay when all the bloody nice lovely days right going straight back to school and when . Well me an and maybe Mohammed What about you Catherine you said you wanted to. Catherine. Catherine you said you wanted to didn't you? I can't I can't really, I dunno it's It's not worth getting in trouble cos if this gets put on report They're not mine. Who's crusts are these? Your mum's What time is it? Two o'clock. God lunch goes fuck so bloody quick. Thought you had some strange hard arse then Alli. Your face is so sort of erm Amazing. Sort of thin. You need treating, pull some weight. Oh God, come on are we going then? Come on bum bum. Oops. Oh shit. Bloody thing keeps falling off. I'm coming I'm coming. I'm coming . Ah my arse isn't hurting no more. Oh yeah I bet that was exciting or was it sad? No it was just going on about remember, remember that just after climaxing Yeah. Yeah. Why? Why can't I leave it on Er you know Honey? Yeah. What about her? Huh? I mean I dunno if I like her you know. I do like her, but at least she's got erm she's got two or three bad points about her which are really bad, that's what I think. But I don't completely sort of detest her or anything. Why have we got so many flipping gypsies sort of parked up round our schools, really weird. Oh I've gotta get him I've gotta go and write down everything. Huh? Who? Rosie? She's back there she'll be along in a minute. Have to oh shit I dunno I can't remember half the fucking conversations I had. I actually don't actually have to write the conv What do you have to do? Basically you know how like all the talking I'm doing yeah sort of like all jumbled up and everything? Yeah. Well I mean like. Basically it's all the same. Why pupils fifteen F friends park, and why pupil fifteen F friends and all that. That's just me it's that if your first name, although I'll probably cross that out. I know, but I just like they said you don't have to put your names on just pissing about. Put down like erm arse or something . Yeah. You have to write your name down every time. Yeah, I suppose so. Oh no, no wait a minute, no, it er has an example in the back first er oh fuck I've forgotten what it is erm oh no, no, oh God I've gotta oh shit. Oh it's not a con consistent many people are talking. The first thing yeah you just write down about yourself yeah. erm and the rest you just have to fill it all out. But you see it's all the same conversation you see. Oh see you erm you have to write down I mean you have to write down Bonnie and pupils. Yeah. What are they age. Yeah. Er you've gotta write you heard of. Yeah, everyone who I spoke to spoke to I just send back it's not that difficult but it is a bit difficult. Gets a bit confusing that's all. All right I'll see you later okay. Conversation I started to record it. Yeah it's recording at the moment. I shall I better, what? I know. I hate the way it bloody whistles all the time. If you move about a lot it does. Yeah but don't talk bad you've just gotta have a normal conversation. Right. Yeah I mean like when I was in the park I only did it between because I was only really talking to one person at one time, but I mean like I couldn't remember anywhere. Chewing gum, singing, giving it . Look, it's their problem innit, I mean I just wanna get over these bloody things. It'll be more difficult. You don't have to wear the earphones. I like wearing the earphones cos you can hear what you're picking up, when you don't wear the earphones you don't know what it's picking up do you. listen to that bit. It won't come on straight away, it'll Hello You can pick everything up it's wicked. When I first put it on It is taped. You taping it? Yeah. Hello Janet. You can hear what everyone's saying and it's weird. microphone I know. There's somebody just saying Is it Thursday today, it is isn't it. Let go of her coconuts. Let go of her coconuts. Is it Thursday? No Friday. I wish it was Friday I want it to be the weekend man. Why we are you going? Nowhere in particular I just want it to be the weekend so I can lie in bed. I can't believe why I've gotta get up at flipping ten o'clock oh my God. Oh, my pen's run out. Well don't use mine. All right then. I'm sorry. Winston. Tell me your love story again Shut up. What are you talking about. Well you just go back with him okay. What do you mean go back with him. Yeah I know I was just er Where but would do you mean go back with him. split up with him and I and then you're telling me to get back Is he a good snogger? Yeah. What's it like? Ooh, what's it like, oh yeah do you expect me to show you, you Carol or something? Huh? I said I know someone who's a good kisser. Who? I thought you were gonna say Nick or something. Nick? Yuck. I wouldn't know I've never snogged with you. Have you turned it off? No and he's always cooking he's always the dinner as well it's well nice. Well you did get off I know he didn't I did. You did get off with him? Twice, but it was totally non-existent kissing so What do you mean? I was sort of falling asleep. Lasted yeah lasted about two seconds and it was twice and basically Where you alone? Not really. It may just be me I liked him, he's a very nice person. He's a very nice person and I like him. You only kissed him twice? Oh get off the flipping subject with her and Nick. It's interesting. Why are you Because I am alive. You're alive. No you're not you're dead bang. Huh? Oh good brother, just what I thought that drop my jaw something I don't know the rest of the words. Ooh. Do you like that song? Do you like it? Don't be so ridiculous. No, no I'm actually made in love . What are you what are you hanging about for? Oh no ever since you started hanging out with Alan and Patrick and you've become like Alan and Patrick. I saw yesterday. No, no like you, you sort of hang out with Patrick and Alan yeah for one night and you came back patronising ever met. And you weren't you see you actually used to be interesting when you were talking and sit complete miserable bastard like Patrick does. Anyone got a pen in their pocket. every ten minutes or something. I know, but I mean like I've got a lot of bollocks I've some bollocks on it about erm er and shit like that. No I thought Oh, I've got it on my walkman now so it doesn't make any difference erm occupation. What's your job prostitute, yeah fine. Erm living on the streets? Yeah. Yeah that's my job living on the Comedy Playhouse. The what How do you spell foyer? Oh give me crisps. Come on I gave you some coke this morning. Daniel. Oh good bother, just when I . Have you got any? Got any Liam but I don't know where he is. Who's Liam? The mad one. What are you doing? Why were you not doing the Mr. McCarthy like you usually do? I suppose there's something going on between you and Mr McCarthy. No I mean like you know the West Side Story thing you know right Erm was it only you that he phoned not to bring any scripts. Probably don't even know where he is probably. No did he say no did you say that he phoned up anyone else? Yeah he phoned up Danny. I thought you were saying West Side Story. Never phoned me. No one called . The closest we get together is when we dance and when he slaps me on the arse and that's about it. Could I have that pen back Daniel I've gotta write more on it now. Ov over there we have our wank teacher yeah called Mr McCarthy and we all hate him. I like him actually. I don't care, I don't care. You bloody fancy him. Do I really? He's got one side than the other you know. No, I like having sex with the now just leave me alone. I'm not facing so what are you talking about? I like facing the Oh well, does it matter? . Petie how's it going? Just leave me alone. Have you got lines on your neck? What? Yeah you have, you've got lines on your neck. Oh thanks. not bloody Yeah, give me your clothes. Give me your give me your . You're weird Catherine. Give me give me your sexually transmitted diseases. more normal than you. He's not abnormal he's just the living dead yeah death warmed up. Oh right I see. If I hear that bloody one more time. Yeah what you gonna do about it darling? I wanna packet Walker crisps. little blue packets. Well I've got the little blue packet yeah and I'm screaming yeah I thought that I won about a hundred pounds or something yeah. Oh well. No but I would I thought wow, I've won a hundred you've won a twenty one P packet of Walkers Crisps. Fucking amazing. Yeah. I Did you send off for it? Yeah. Did you get it? I haven't got it yet. How long ago did you send off for it? About a month ago. Oh right. Did did tea towel you could have one or something You either win a tea towel or a bag. No they said to us. Shall we go Oh shit have we gotta go? No, no, no tomorrow but they're doing erm they're doing America now they've got the erm Are you sure? Yeah, it is Can I have a bit Peter darling? Don't you ever say please? Please. How rude can you get. Give me a bit of Kit-Kat, How rude. fucking Can I can I have a bit please. This rude English baby here Can I have a little bit please? Can I have a bit please Ask nicely. Please can I have a bit of Kit-Kat? Pretty please. Pretty please. Sugar on top. sugar on top With lots of sugar. lots of sugar A cherry. a cherry Not my cherry, though. Give me another please, give me another please, I'm Please just fucking give me some and after all I've done for you But why do they always say they're going home. I mean I don't understand this you know, they oh bye, see you tomorrow you know about two hours. Alex why do you why do you lot always say that, you say well bye we're going home now, then you come back in? I go bye I'm going home. Catherine and me gave you Coke and I gave you loads this morning. I've given you crisps, a bit of fucking chocolate. Please give me some Alex, buy some Coke so I can have some. cos we've got nothing better to do. I dunno. I'll save you a bit then Catherine. You're so stingy. You're gonna damage you understand why Ca Bonnie finds Catherine to amazingly funny. She's not funny all the time though. I know you are funny sometimes, and some Bonnie just looks at you and she starts laughing and he hasn't even said anything or something. Oh dear. You know all she said she goes oh ah funny. oh ah oh oh ah oh ha. I don't sound like a Ribena berry. Oi, Alex,do I sound like a Ribena berry when I talk? Oh, hey, oh. I don't. I don't. she goes oh. Ho, hey. Your mum looks like a Ribena berry. Yeah. Oh What? What? Looks like a Ribena berry? Are you actually going home now? be back in a minute. Look at you. Well you're bloody down are you, because Oh he's back look. She we count how. Shall we shall we count how many times Alex has been in and out of here saying he's going home? Going home now. Oh God you're so What are you laughing at? Oh dear. Oh are you going home or are you gonna be back? Bye. fucking prince charming. I dunno Catherine why don't you shut your mouth for once. Where do you live Tom? No er according to Robert over there. Can I have can I have a er Milky Bar er Peter? Milky Bar. Yeah can I have a M Ashley Can I have more than that please? Tom more. No. Sod. It's Bonnie. Hello, hello. Hello, hello. Oh no I'm not going to be able to listen. I go out just for recording all this bollocks yeah for absolutely no reason at all. No it's running. No my coat's been covering it up yeah. Hello, hello. Trying to work out whether I can hear it over my coat. Cassie. What? What I sound like in class? I sound lovely. I haven't got any money at all. I did. Spent it all. She's pregnant isn't she? I think so, yeah. Oh. Probably about three months I would think When have you had a big pillow? Is it on? Yeah. Let's talk about Oh, I forgot all about that song. I'm go and see got so much fucking work to do. I hate it. I hate it people go have got a lot a load of homework to do do all their bloody homework week's homework in about one bloody day Yeah well not yeah when it when it's all for tomorrow you do. got a weeks homework I've got I've got I tell you what I've gotta do tonight. I've gotta do my music I've gotta do er media studies homework. I have to record loads of tapes,no no not just these ones and I got other ones at home, I've got have a bath, I've got clean up my bedroom and you know. I've gotta wash my hair. Use Wash n Go. Oh God. I use Safeway's Special Formula Doing One or something. Doing One? Two in One. You said Doing One. Talk like a cripple girl. In my American soap thing and it was anyway I think it's called midnight. I don't bloody walk around like that. Yeah. I know I know. Well I mean like. Boo Oh no. Do you want not the rest then? Let me have the rest. Can I have a tiny sip please. No. Please, look I gave you some my crisps. No. Oh go on let me have some. Let me have a little bit. There we go. it is. But I for Christ's sake. It's and he's awkward. Was that on your jacket when you bought it? Er I done it in art. I always do that I always. knee high to a grasshopper You know Annie got into a fight with Elsa's boyfriend. I think it's Annie anyway. Some stupid ugly obviously. Dunno what his name is. Mm. P probably true innit. Was he ugly? I dunno I wasn't there but I heard about it. Annie, Annie, Annie Annie What's her second name? Annie Dukakis. I don't know what's I don't, I wasn't there but I mean like . Oh bugger, I wanna get these bloody new clothes. You always say that I want some fucking new clothes as well. and get a job I don't wanna get bloody green ones. I wanna job as well. Well you don't count I hate you whenever that bloody face comes up like Oh yeah, I hate it when you open your stupid bloody mouth and you say the most bitchy things sometimes Catherine Yeah All right then. Is that the Yeah. That hat helmet looks so bloody stupid. Which helmet, oh the helmet I see him every morning driving to school. Such a fucking pranny and he's so polite as well. Oh he's He does talk a lot of shit in class though. Yeah. But there's another the teacher asks us a question yeah hands off, hands off. Yeah I know. And it's usually boom boom. I how are you? Yes of course yes. Right. Yeah we got to sh . Oh someone give me some money come and give me some money. Hello Vicky. Catherine give me some money please. I haven't fucking got any. What? nothing . You know in Science yeah, you know has got one of them. Yeah. He started talking to Nicola er and Nicola's going oh I love and everything and flipping hell I mean like Nicola's probably saying it on purpose though anyway. Nicola is so full of absolute shit. She's full up to the brim in shit, I'm sorry. No, she has smoked a cigarette. a joint. Yeah. Yes you look like a penis with a huge head on top of it. You look so sick. How can that how can that bloke be yeah any more comfortable I'm gonna sit down Oh I can't be bothered I'm going home in a minute. Although that's wh Well I don't go in for about half an hour. hour and a half . It's an exciting conversation we're having. Twelve. travelling stage club dog stage. Er eight I think. That's what I'm doing as well. And what are you gonna do who are going with? Well you can't go. Erm well because you have to go with your dad. Just just come with me or someone else or something. Shangri La I'll be singing groove. Shangri La No, but I Shangri Las. That sounds funny. You think so. What did you do that for? Have you seen them they all go oh yeah, yeah . I'm going. Before It's quite easy to to people. I can't believe that that they do . I'm going, I'll see you lot tomorrow. Bye. that was a bitch teacher teacher that's my bitchy Science teacher Huh? I know,she she really what Peter . My fucking new Science teacher she's a load of crap. All right I'll see you lot tomorrow okay? Bye. Huh? I'd have what? Right, bye. What was all that about? What was all that about? If I can use it. You got a gig? Where? At the Flask. The where? In Hampstead. Flask in Hampstead? You gonna get tons of people there then are they really rocking? Well do you wanna bring your friends up? It's probably not their sort of music . Yeah. Dunno. It's somewhere to go. Where's mum? She's out What David? So why doesn't the hot w oh shit Why don't she hardly never look after David any more? Well she's every day though. Mm what are you doing out the front? Cleaning the run up. You're actually cleaning the run up. It's clean, it's spotless. Yourself, you've done it all yourself after nagging about five years. Mm. You know doesn't want to go to Cornwall. How do you know? Something up. Mm. I could take someone else though would that be all right? If anyone else would wanna come with me even though it's during school weeks. Yeah. Yeah, I mean like I dunno. I dunno because the school I think ends early I don't know earlier than sort of I think sort of like June or something, but I mean I don't know. I mean I was what I've mentioned it like to someone in my class. I was talking to Catherine about it and erm she said she said oh take me. Yeah, yeah. I don't know if I wanna take her though. I mean like dunno. No I do, I'm friends with her, I do know her well. Yeah and I don't think I dunno. Dunno if Bonnie will be allowed to take a week off school. Funny thing. Yeah My mum's all right. Yeah, I might ask her tomorrow. Don't know. Ask her if she's interested. Yeah. Yeah, cos then she might be more likely to say yeah. Also I mean that means that you might you know maybe Jan will say yeah okay as long as you you know. Well Bonnie Bonnie always does her work without asking Jan and stuff anyway. Yeah. You'll be able to Mm. You'll be able to do that. Yeah. I dunno Zed might change his mind in the end, but I doubt it. Probably not really it's probably not really his scene. What? Er. I don't know. Probably just boring shit I suppose. He's just a boring sod I suppose. No, why do you always think that? No I haven't gone off him. Why? Dunno people have said like that will last a really short time or a really long time, but what's considered a short time I know what a long time is, a long time is like sort of four months three sort of four months onwards innit for like people our age, what would a short time be they? Yeah, we've been out we've gone out for six weeks tomorrow. Yeah. You know. I don't know I mean I prefer not to predict. I know I mean I know what I think in the back of my head but I mean I just prefer not to predict, I don't want to say it doesn't matter about thinking I know it's a bit weird in you know. I dunno. Have I got the house for myself tonight? Huh? Mm. Why did he have all his guitar out and everything. Why did have all his guitar out and everything? Yesterday? There was something wrong with it Mm. So he took it in to be looked at . Which guitar, the acoustic one? Mm. Oh dear, I've got so much to do tonight, got so much to do tonight, gotta have a bath gotta record some tapes, gotta record these tapes, gotta record some other music tapes gotta do some homework. Might turn out my bedroom if I can be bothered. Oh God don't wanna do my fucking musical, I've gotta make a flipping piece of music out from a stupid scale. Yeah I know and it's it's not my fault I mean like if I still have the proper lessons every week, which I don't seem to get. I haven't got anything to prac I haven't got anything to I haven't got anything to practice at the moment Well I have but I mean I dunno. But your teacher Mm. You should. I know. I dunno. Mm. I'm trying to work out like what did I what did I do with my erm schedule this morning? My erm West Side Story schedule? Is it?boys and girls. Oops.. just too loud. No, I'm just trying to work out how long I'm gonna be practising for West Side Story tomorrow because you might have to take my money my pocket money tomorrow I might not be able to get like home, sort of cos er I I might be practising till bloody six o'clock for all I know so I'll get some chips or something. What's for dinner tonight? I if you thought about it . What? chips. Mm. Yeah that's right and why didn't you get the fries. Yeah I know. Erm what was I gonna say. Why didn't you get the fries? Well those chips were to kilo grams. Mm. They were the same price as the other ones the ones . Mm. just busy round there. What are you gonna do for us to dinner tonight then Dad? What? Dinner. What's dinner gonna be? Dinner? Where are those tapes for erm that you said I could have? Only one. That's all right I mean like I actually sort of worked out about another two or three tapes yesterday. The only thing see is that it's all my own tapes they're such crap ones and like they just sound really bad when they're recorded on. It's like the same thing with video tapes they all get buggered up. So I've got to sort of I've gotta record a . that tape Is it a ninety minute yeah? I don't know lunch box Oh yeah, all right. Searching through that there might be but I to choose No I won't, I won't do that. I won't do that. What happened to your keep fit classes speaking of tapes cos you had some tapes of keep fit? Mm. I quite enjoyed doing that actually. It's too much to try and do it all as well as. mm. synchronise Yeah Lis Lisa came in yesterday when I was round at Zed's and she was complaining about how her keep fit class they bloody put on rave music. Yeah well that . Not necessarily I mean it depends on what sort of people come to your keep fit classes, but I mean. My age group. Yes well for your age we yeah. I mean when you warm Well you yeah. I mean using rave music cos it's got a beat innit, it's got a lot of beat in it. rhythm and blues. Yeah. I know what you mean yeah. Soul. rock and roll You know that tape that you had with all the rock and roll's greatest hits. Mm. Green Onion, all that I've got all . Can you m Mm. We're starting to do erm tennis. Tennis? Tennis something else and something else were actually. Tennis er I think soft ball whatever that is. like rounders. Yeah and something else might have been netball I can't remember, something new. I'm surprised we didn't get swimming actually seeing as we got a fucking swimming pool right over the road from us. I er I dunno I think you maybe do in the fifth year but I doubt it, but I mean it's so stupid though we got it opposite our school I mean it's not as if it would be that difficult for the people in our school to pay for us. I mean like people come in and pay for it. Yeah. Ouch. God I've got just so many spots at the moment. Can you remind me to take this tomorrow mum yeah? Take all this stuff. Trying to work out whether I should go to the Electric Ballroom tomorrow or go to a pub or something. I suppose it depends on who's doing or whatever. Mm. Y You and Deborah were talking about Dan and Honey yesterday weren't you? Can't remember if you told me not to mention it to you or not that was it that it was supposed to be a private conversation, I can't remember. No. No, maybe not maybe it was someone else. You cos you know Bonnie yeah,sh she erm got offered a er job in Glitters in Camden yeah it's a shop in Camden, and sh she told Honey and Dan about it yeah and the next thing she knows yeah like the next day, she's talking to Dan and Honey and Honey comes out and says oh I went down to Glitters and asked for a job right said right to Honey's face I mean Bonnie's face. Mm. and you know and then they said the same thing to her they said come back next weekend and we'll sort it out. I mean but don't you think that's a bit out of order Bonnie got offered a job, so Honey goes and tries and gets it. Glitters is a really gothic shop in Camden with erm all this sort of and leather pvc gear, it's a really good shop actually, but it's a bit of a rip off some of the people try and rip you off unless you're a respectable adult-looking person. I don't know actually, she hasn't really said that she wants it she's talked about it, but she hasn't said whether she wants the job or not. Oh are you gonna do toad-in-the-hole? Yum. on the bottom under the under the What time are you gonna get the meal ready for cos I need to have a bath? What? What time are you gonna get it ready for cos I need to have a bath? Er do you think I should have a bath now or should I Unless I have a half-an-hour one and then I've gotta get out and start recording tapes and then I'll do my homework. Oh God I don't wanna do my bloody music homework . No I know, I know, but I it's no it's not that, it won't it won't be that difficult to do, I just don't wanna do it. it's on the top there. I dunno did you not find any? We haven't used them I mean buy any sausages some of those sausages. Do you like Bonnie? What? Do you like Bonnie? Yeah. I like her but there's d did he actually say that he actually doesn't like her? No, he just Did those erm other sausages Yeah yeah. Why? Well it's just not very nice sausages. Oh. What did he say? I I dunno I I I can't work out cos all of Dan's girlfriends yeah Amber, Sonia and Honey most people have all said I don't think she's right for Dan and you know I can't I can't work out whether they actually think that or they're just sort of saying that because he doesn't talk to them as much or something, I don't know. No. I mean but I mean I suppose it's true with with Sonia and with Honey cos I mean like Honey's a nice person, but there's three things about her which are very bad, and that is like she takes the piss erm she's lazy. is lazy as well. I know when he told me about when Zed told me about how she said oh, No she didn't say anything. What happened? Can you pour water. that she could could make the tea or something you know, him having put the cups out and everything and I I put the teapot there and said put two tea bags in it and she just Oh I I've Then there sh she takes the piss, she's lazy. She's not that shy though and she takes liberties as well. She takes really bad liberties with people and oth and other peoples things and stuff. Amber, well she doesn't talk to Amber any more. Amber did something really nasty to her. Yeah, Sonia is just a complete cripple. You know you know Sonia' been kicked out of her house and she's in a children's home somewhere or something. Yeah I know, I feel sorry for her but I mean like That is awful. The way she sort of I don't the way she sort of lead I don't know, I don't know and she's still really madly in love with Dan or according to Paula. . And it was her fir her first boyfriend. Yes. I don't think her parents gave her much very much freedom. I don't know where her dad was, but she lives lives with her mum. about fifteen notes yeah. . just sort of like a bit of rhythm to them and that's it. . But I mean it sounds really crap but it's just I swear if he chooses me I'm gonna fucking slap him. . I told him,I'm gonna shoot him in the head. . Ow. Oh my chest hurts so much every time I cough like that. You what? . Er. hey Cassie. What? I've been waiting for this day all week. What? It's Friday. Monday. yeah well I have to get up at ten thirty in the morning to take this thing back. Why? Because er the woman needs them for someone else. Something else or something. It's cold out there. It's cold. It's cold. . Oh God I hope all be incredibly exciting. But it never usually is. on the door. that doesn't make any sense does it. Turn on the No it says turn on something turn on Turn on fire or something like that. Alarm. it says the . Turn on the . That's right a bit of a wank yeah, turn it on . Ow. Hello . Hello . . thank you very much. I don't understand why dog's do that, they never go for men's crotches do they? . It's disgusting if you ask me. Fucking disgusting. . Oh do shut up. I want to go back to bed. I had such a backache this morning cos I had to get up early. . Is she, where? Not in here, in there. Oh lovely.. doggie. Bye little doggie. Are you are you g are you gonna let have kids? . Yeah. Are you gonna let have puppies? No. You're not. No. When are you gonna go and get her spayed then. Soon but they've gotta they've gotta like have a first. A what? gotta have a period first. Well she's had a period now . No she hasn't finished it yet. Oh right, how long do they last for, they last for about a w Two weeks. Two weeks . But they don't lose much blood though do they. common factor . What the hell are you talking about? It's alright . Hi mum. Hello David. No not at all, God . Have erm Did you have West Side Story practice after school today ? Yeah. Bloody hell. What did you have to do? Right I had to sing erm America yeah. Mm. And shit man, What you had to do it solo. Yeah. Yeah. coming in with me . The silly bitch. Did she say that you were alright then? Yeah but erm but it'll be alright now cos I've done it. Yeah. . Was it was it em er sort of embarrassing having to sing in front of everybody else though? Like all by yourself. Yeah it was a bit but it was alright cos there weren't many people there. There was just erm You. me and Louise, Yeah. oh and Louisa Yeah. and that, and erm Oh shit, talking about Aisling's sister. Aisling's sister? Fiona, and Mia. Yeah. And Phyllis that's all. Oh who's Phyllis. You know Phyllis, she used to have . what? She's a third year. And she used to have a blonde streak in her hair. . She hangs round with and she's Turkish. I think I know who she is, she's got sort of short curly hair, looks a bit like my erm Spanish friend Carmen. Yeah. Right. I think I remember her having a streak in her hair, I don't know. Oi look at the arse on that. Look at the arse on that little kid. Where you going? Hello Cassie. Morning. Morning. Yeah no school on Monday it's like brilliant that is. Oi Tammy, what happened to you having a little dinner party over the holidays? . But why n why didn't you have one. I dunno. Oh shit we've got three minutes. Are we late again. We're always fucking late I didn't think we were late this morning. Reckon I'm coming to well I can't come to that detention anyway cos I have to go to West Side Story tonight. Rosie do you sing Cool, you don't do you? God I hope to God he doesn't pick me today. . Whose whose dress sense? Miss . Oh I dunno, it's weird innit. It's sort of like . It's sort of like a nice version of Miss 's dress sense in a way. But except hers still looks horrible though innit. You know what I mean. I can't understand where they get . We we were saying the other day yeah we reckon we reckon yeah she looks like erm oi oi oi you know Oi oi oi you know the Fraggles yeah? Yeah. You know that erm tall artist one in the Fraggles, Meg? We were saying that we though Miss looked like her. Yeah. Cos she does doesn't she. And she just looked like the typical artist as well. . right yesterday right,was wearing a green top yeah Yeah. in fact it was quite luminous yeah. . And then she had these these big baggy sort of trousers black grey and white then she had like black tights and red combat boots on. I'm sorry but Oh my God, what's wrong with that woman? Well it's not. What about the way Miss dresses, do you remember that blue dress she was wearing with them pink and green tartan tights. Oh God it's so What I hate Why do we have to walk up this way, it's always all uphill. It's bloody horrible. Oh. I'm so tired. It's horrible,. Do you know what What? yeah? Yeah. Erm that that erm cold shower illness, Yeah. Yeah. and prevent you from erm and they make you healthy and really fit and everything . blood circulation. Yeah. like sitting in a bath with cold water. Yeah it's really good for you and . They have cold showers and . That means that means that it prevented high blood pressure as well though. Yeah. Yeah I suppose so. I wish I had a I wish I had a shower in my house you know. You ain't got a shower. No. We've got a stupid bath and you know how long baths take. And like you know, you get in there and you can't I like baths. I like baths yeah, but I mean, if you want a quick one yeah, you get in there like and you well you think, oh now this is nice, and you can't be bothered moving around. But in showers you can like take five minutes sometimes. Yeah. Our shower yeah, it's really gross you have to hold it. Oh great. But it's alright though. And then you go all crinkly and nasty. It's like I've got an incredibly big hip, look. Or something stupid. Oh yeah . . Ah. .Wait up. I can't walk as fast as you two, I'm not as healthy as you two. . Healthy. Me healthy . Yeah well at least you lot eat up more healthy foods, I live on cr I lived on crisps and chocolate and chips over the holidays. And I flipping smoked and drank all the way through. They're ridiculous . . I hope all our teachers aren't in today. Oh God that's what I was hoping. Yeah. Oh . It does a bit doesn't it. Ah I'm gonna step on your feet in a minute Rose. Yeah. Well us lot must walk about half a mile a day you know. It's true. Anne . Yeah. Whoo. I'll see you later okay, bye. What do you mean? Brown bread? Relates to something doesn't it? Oh yeah it, it and it, it and it and it looks like shit. get it in Marmite. I dunno, go and compare it to the turd on the floor. I hate Marmite, well I don't, no, just dislike it. I mean what, when I mean since, since since wh since when yeah does your bum slip off the toilet, turn around Oh for God's sake Cassie! Calm yourself! Are you wearing that funny thing ? Yeah. Is it on? Yeah it's on at the moment. Ha? Anyway enough of the turd oi oi oi! but erm Oi oi oi oi oi oi oi oi oi I'm just going for a piss now I'm not fucking going to the toilet. Right that's how, that's how the speaks at the beginning of it he goes oi oi oi oi Can you get er actually I've just got to say one more thing, I know someone who'd probably do something like that. Who? Me. And you you know Sherry? Sherry would do something like that because apparently she's always walking down the streets and like taking her top off and showing her tits to everyone and sort of like pulling her trousers down. I know she goes to the with the door open when all the other kids Yeah I know I er it, I bet it was her shitting on the toilet floor. No Yeah but she might sort of like expose herself but is she vulgar? Erm she can be a bit vulgar, she does say some really stupid things sometimes. is going over the limit. Where's ? I dunno they sort of went back to have a look. Yeah she, she's probably Did you see that toilet like collapsed ? going She's like, she's like tearing the wall down and collapsing on the floor with hysterics. Yeah I don't know why Catherine finds that sort of thing funny. I know. Yeah she's so weird She is strange. and she always sort of bitches on about everybody. She always what? Bitches on at everybody and about everybody. Yeah I know she, she's never got anything nice to say, she always complain. Except Robert and She said she's always complaining and criticising it's quite funny though but there you go. Yeah. That's Catherine for you innit? Oh shit I've gotta go and speak to that boy over there, see you. Are you coming to ? Yeah. Have you got any cigarettes? Yeah. Good. I should go to the shops and get me some, get myself some actually. I don't understand it but I seem to have found some extra money in my purse and I don't know where it came from. Oh well I'm not complaining. Oh I don't know what I wanna do tonight. Who'd you bootleg that ? Who did I get it from? Where did I get it from? Erm a shop in Yeah. Amaznig Ha? amaznig Ama ha? amaznig it's say saying amazing with the, the Gs and stuff and back to front so That's clever. Right now Mm. Why is that funny? What erm what do you erm is it, is it, does it say anything about how long it is? Yeah. I suppose if you, I suppose if you're buying a mile long I'm sure it'll cost more than a quid but seeing as you can't like get more than a mile long piece anyway so can't they had like new. Phew I dunno I mean I suppose so, yeah. That's what, that's what they've said anyway. Oh shall we go and sit at the cafe? Bonnie? Ha? What? can't sit in Yeah I know. Ah fuck my chin hurts. I've got a spot on my chin and it really hurts. Come on I know where we can go. Ha? You know erm those little erm shed things where the seats are? Mm. Well see it's, it's, it's the only choice we've got but see, see the thing is no one 's gonna know where we are. No but when all, they all, when they all come they're gonna fuck off aren't they? There's erm all these crap Eh? These, all these crap No it's that was Sarah and Elsa wasn't it? Sarah and Elsa with two really crap raggers are on the stage and we don't really wanna sort of socialize with them so we, basically we've got nowhere to see this lunchtime. Yeah over there. Yeah. We have to keep out an eye er keep an eye, I don't want any to keep an eye out for the erm we can't go to the stage well I mean I can't be bothered What? Probably won't even be able to sit here. Oh we've actually found a free seat for us to sit on. sit up this end Yeah whatever. Ow! Oh I've got, I've gotta really clean out my pockets I've got so much crap. Oh. Ow ow! Oh. actually. Actually I wanna sit there. actually . Well sit wherever you like. Hello. Well you can't so there. Hi. Oh it's cold and it's oh I saw her a minute ago Oh yeah I thought, I thought I thought, I thought I saw her a minute ago. Eleanor was nearly throwing up today Why? Is, is it real though or is it a false, false one? Yeah No don't you reckon Sherry's the sort of person who'd do that Who? shit on the toilet floor, Sherry. Cos you know, you know how she's always like going to the toilet yeah with the door open and like showing her tits to people and running round the school and shouting obscene things. No but, but, but anyone want these crisps? Yes. I, I Yeah. I No don't give them to her look you bloody nicked her fifteen P, then you nick her crisps. I nicked her five Birdies, birdies come and get your food. Birdies. Here you go. Why are you giving away Er I dunno, I don't like crusts I think they taste like shit. Oh have you still got your erm tt Do you watch, do you watch do you watch do you watch do watch the, the Animals of Yeah yeah it's on at the moment. from Farthing Wood? No. Have you seen the advert for it? Yeah. Yeah it's so crap innit? Yeah you know you know that the bloke goes what, what, what happens to the animals at night? They go home and have a shag. They don't, they die. It's obvious isn't it? That was good Catherine. Yeah. your dad. Oh I wish it was today. Oh I don't. Oh God it stinks around here! Well I wish it was bloody minus twenty five. No it smells like do you ever leave the grill on? Yeah. Yeah it smells like that. Mm. What I can't work out is you know those erm four people we saw in ? Oh fuck. Well like those two boys, yeah, Mark come and is it me or are they sort of going round in a circle of Elsa, Sarah and erm some other people, some of the other common lot cos erm they seem to be cuddling and hugging like a different one every day, have you noticed that? like a bloody whatever, the common, the common Go on, get him, he ain't got no water left . What's that smell? Bye Judy Garland. Oh it's bloody No what the fucking hell's that? What? That bird up there with like some thing hanging out of its arse and then something hanging out of its mouth and I thought it was like Where? it's Where? I think it was a worm that it had but Was it a heron? no I think it was a worm that it had in its mouth but it looked incredibly weird. Who? You're the one into German. Thank you. That was quite a good one Catherine That was . Who's gonna watch the new film that's coming out with erm Judy Garland Judy Garland? Is it a that like moves around on er wheels? So what is it? No I don't mean Judy Garland I mean Liza Minelli? the girl that Liza Minelli, her daughter? No the girl The girl, the girl that, the nothing at all nothing at all to do with erm Liza Minelli or Judy Garland Yeah who then ? What? Would Liam stop talking crap. The geezer out of the woman, I mean Oh what is that absolutely revolt is there a spider in my hair? No. Are you sure? Oh God I hate these lot, they're so boring. What lot? Them! Who? What them lot? Sitting there, talk about role playing and Jimmi Hendrix. What is wrong with Morag? Does she think she's a boy now? Yeah. She u she no she hasn't she, she used to be a really bad tomboy and like she's not any more really but Can we take up all the ? Yeah. We can't sit on the stage cos there's crap raggers on the stage. Cos what? Are they bigger than me? Yeah. No it's, you know, you know s Sara and Elsa's boyfriends, the ones that go out with each other every single day changing boyfriends What, their boyfriends go out they ro they rotate with each other. Are they bigger than me? No. Yes. No. Same size really. Yes. Oh well No they're the same size. Cos Alan beat them up and they Don't you fucking stop throwing bits of bread at me Liam don't you stop I know alright it came out wrong. It came out wrong. There's loads in my crisp packet. Urgh cheddar fla flavoured let me try one. They taste like brussel sprouts Brussel sprouts? Fuck off! Get out of here you tart. Yeah that hurt didn't it? Urgh they're not very nice, no. Just taste of, well actually they're alright. No actually they're not. I can't work it out. Really diff difficult is it? Ha? what a crisp like tastes like. Yeah. Why's the old lady talking to the people? Oh no when do you wanna go and Where's Sam? Ha? Where's Sam do you know? Where's Sam? Yeah. Don't think he's in today, no. No he is, I've seen him. Well he wasn't in media studies. Oh he's started bunking off now, Sam you know. Has he? I don't give a shit. He's a right little shit. Don't you think right Dan's boxing day thing was really really really shit? It was actually wasn't it? Yeah. good right and I got them from Honey? I know. I know. Now oh shit which What you listening to Cass? I'm not listening to anything I'm just trying to sort the bloody thing out. What's in the tape? What's on the tape? Absolutely fuck all it's recording. Someone tell him about it I'm fucking getting fed up with telling every single person A Norwegian university has asked for five people Six people. er six people from our school to tape conversations What, any conversation at all? Yeah. Just leave it on basically for about an hour as long as you're having a conversation Oh no, do you mean we're all going and like it around saying hello! Yeah it doesn't matter, it does er it doesn't matter er it's studying Well we can like endlessly swear on it Yeah. Oh don't, don't tell him cos he's gonna bloody go fuck fuck fuck on it. Yeah you can't, I mean you can't sit there being an immature little Fuck fuck fuck cripple and say yeah I'm fucking bollocksed wanks ten grammes of smack please. Why? You do it all the time. Doesn't she? Yeah I know but I don't do it purposely. Can I have one please? Oh Here Cass. Oh cheers. No there's all these erm What a shit lighter. erm funny people on it. Can't any of you lot afford Zippos or A Zippo? Why would we go out and spend fifty quid on a lighter that we'd lose after two weeks? Oh alright I never lost mine yet. I've had my green Clipper three months now. No I'm actually quite surprised at myself I've got two Clippers and both of them I found and I've had them for ages. I never give cigarettes Did you give that one back to Dan and Honey? You wouldn't give me a cigarette anyway. Yeah. Oh come on, you know I would. Just to shut them fucking complaining. It's my lighter, it's my lighter why was it in my house then? And Dan always keeps like everyone's magazines, you know everyone leaves their magazines round our house? Yeah well they're He always keeps them. well that's because half the people that leave them there live in south London. No I reckon it's Yeah I dunno. No one usually asks for them back anyway so Yeah Emma did Oh right. went in there with a twenty cigarette box erm two twenty cigarette boxes yeah?like when you see cigarette and they pull out their fag, have you got a cigarette and hold out the box forty two cigarettes. What is it smoking corner or something over there? Dunno. I'm gonna see what's going on over there. Where's my cigarette gone? What did I do with it? Do you know what I did with it? No. I sort of put it down so oh no it's in my hand. You alright? You alright my Cass? I'm alright. Danny how can you eat Sainsbury's bon bons? They're the nastiest things. The birds, the birds have been eating that. They're not Sainsbury's bon bons. Oh well they're bon bons but they're horrible anyway. What? They're horrible, bon bons. Oh can I have a Rolo please? Have you got enough? No sorry. Thank you. Look Peter just ate the bit that Nick spat out, ooh! A bit of what? That. chocolate. Which Nick's chewed up and spat out a Hula Hoop with water added. That is so foul. Who the fuck did that? Nick and then Peter ate some. Go and in his bloody face and shove it in it. And then Peter ate some . Go on then. No you're all, you're all, you're all big strong men No no we ain't, you are tougher than us you're a man. You're more of a man than I am, can I quote Alright! can I quote that? Where's Philip. Nick come and lick this disgusting mess up now. Yes you . Suck what? Suck what? Erm, you know erm, you know erm, you know you know what erms are. What suck his, well if he meant suck his bollocks what fucking bollocks? Do you remember Nigo? The bloke who used to live next door to me, the little Turkish with the sister Lisa he used to eat dog shit, I saw him eat it. The one had the disabled brother? Their family was really big and they were really noisy people and Nigo used to fancy everything in sight, he used to fancy me and chase me round the playground. Nigo? Yeah it was something like that and he had a sister called Lisa who was about a year older than me and I used to be best friends with her. Well that's not as disgusting, I used to know a little kid that used to eat shit, by the way everybody, I just thought I'd let you know. Dog shit that er That makes me sick, I'm sorry . Alex Alex Alex is that Ta er is that how can you drink Tab Clear? It's nice. Urgh it's horrible. I like it, it's nice. No it's not it's horrible though. It's nice. Tastes like worse than Diet Coke. Mm. Is it recor is all this recording? Danny gave it to me and he Yes. Why didn't you record anything? whole side. Er this is my third tape and you've recorded a whole side! Yeah, so? Urgh. Well you're supposed to record as much as you can. Peter eats bird sick . Look That was so easy Rosie no offence says to me What? I fucking come back and try and put something and go what is this man? No I'm talking about your cigarette. I feel rather left out, don't you Cass What, because everyone else is Smoking. Well have a bloody cigarette then if you feel left Can I have erm Liam can I have a light? Can I just have a light off your cigarette then? It's a disgusting habit it you know, you shouldn't do it. Oh he always says that. Peter you are a disgusting habit. Why are all those, why do those people get thrills out of chucking balls at each other? Because they're fucking got no cos they can't get their leg over with any woman at all so all their life consists of is doing role playing. Yeah have you noticed Apparently she likes tumbling It's a really good game. And fancies every single one of them especially Alex. have you got my magazine? But probably not Philip actually seeing as he's her brother but you never know. No maybe not. You never know do you? crisp roll. Oh God can I have one of them crisps? The only way I like, salt and vinegar. No can I have The only way I like salt and vinegar. Mm? Mm. Ha? Not that I can think of. That stupid over athletic bastard. Who? Them lot? Why? Cos they're running around. Over reacting about what? No over athletic, they're running around Oh I thought you said over reacting. actually give them any physical or monetary gain it's pointless. They just fall over and get grass stains all over their jeans, how can you get a thrill out of that? Falling over. If you get paid to do it or you were doing it for money I could appreciate it. Well it's quite funny like, like on a hot, nice hot summer's day, yeah, when you feel like running about. Yeah but it's really wet and everything. But it's like nice it's bit funny. It's like a nice rather cool wet damp day. Well I suppose it's better than football what they're playing innit? Anything's better than football. Anything's better than football. It's quite funny watching them make complete fools of themselves. X. Oh fucking hell . X Mr , Mr 's first name, what's his Xavier. Xavier. How can Xavier be spelt with X. Xavier. Do you remember that was spelt with X wasn't it? What was his mate's name,and ? Shut up . Oh I like the way Nick just runs away with the ball. No it's just that erm he threw the ball everybody knows badger loves mashed potato Oh it's the last day of school. Oh shit! I can't do this. Er! Er! Sorry to pulling my shorts up . But what? Excuse moi? Just Peter talking shit. that it's shit, ah ha ah ha ah ha. It's exactly the same as yours. What no fanny, it goes the other way. Well so. Well how do you know ? I couldn't give a toss Peter. Look that is incest! Stop. That is sexual harassment. Oh God. I'm cold. Play this game then. What? Play this game then, it keeps you warm. Oh yeah I'll get a real thrill out of that. I'd rather fucking pick my arse. No actually I wouldn't actually. No I don't think so No it's not bad the game actually it's alright but it is a bit sort of like boring when it's, when you play it every day and it's sort of break your neck or something. gay person that you know Oh I can't bloody tell you, I'm sworn to secrecy and I can't tell you. Well I can probably tell you cos I, I know most of the stuff that Cassie's sworn secret cos she normally tells everyone else. Who is it, Alex? What is it, Alex? Alex who? I'm not telling you. What's this? What? Someone I know who's gay. Only a few people know. Do we know them? Do I know? What did some Yeah you know them, you all know 'em. did somebody go up to Miss and say Who ? No, well Pat is gay anyway, everyone know is gay but that's beside the point. It's James. James? I don't think James is gay. No no no no. Can I just have a drag? Oh I thought it was Liam at first. Ooh! Ooh! Go on, go and chat up erm No I fancy go and chat up Nick go on. Who, who would tell Cassie their secrets? No it wasn't, the person didn't actually tell me I'd never tell Cassie it was one some Oh for God's sake. it was someone else that told me but told me not to tell anyone and I had to beg it out of him cos I just wanted to know. Are they here now? No. Are they related to anyone? No well not that I know. There is one, there's like things that I would never tell anybody What? is that who fancies whoever or what they're the two things that I'd never tell anybody. The only thing I don't really tell anybody is my Or basically anything thoughts if I told someone my thoughts they'd be absolutely disgusted. What ? Did you say pizza? No whoa whoa! Hello any fags? Got any fags? Pardon? Give me a fag. They've all buggered off, if they're not there and they're not here If they're not here and they're not there Oh has and that gone? Are they not there? Oh yeah. Oh I'm gonna take my coat join them Yes I look like shit. no one 's actually talking. Yeah I know but who gives a shit. And where's your microphone? It's here, I, I forget that it's recording so like when people aren't talking I just sort of think fuck it. Everywhere he goes No if people are having a conversation Fuck it I wondered what the bloody hell that was ! I thought I think what I'm gonna do I'm gonna go and stand in front of everybody while they're trying to just to annoy them. Okay go on then. Stand behind them when they walk backwards. That, in front of Mohammed And they've gotta try and walk backwards I'll just sort of go whoop! I used to, every time like when we was playing football at primary school Whoop! every time somebody shot a goal all, everybody, they always walked backwards like a foot. That's supposed to be a trick when someone attacks you, if they attack you from behind you're supposed to walk backwards. And like instead of running forwards while they grab on to you if you step, walk backwards it makes them fall over. See what happens is they always backwards even if they're right at the back of the field so you find someone you don't like and you go behind them trip them over Didn't fucking work did it? What? Oh! I'm gonna break this on the ground. Oh God I hate having so much shit in my pocket! What a pleasant game. Brrrr Right well I'm gonna go and annoy everybody. have to say a lot you have to talk a lot. She's in here. Wait for something abusive and then Shall I put this in my bag? Yeah. look mum he says horrible things to me. Is that alright Sir? Sir. Sir is this okay, is my folder alright? These are hot off the press aren't they Miss. Oh what the hair extension? Hot off the press. Jenny Talk to me, talk to me, blah blah. Why do you want to get at our diary tiddle up bum bum tiddle dee Bum bum tit tit tiddly bum. Hey I told you they Yeah. Mm. I dunno I think the batteries are running out, I don't know if Frere Jacque Brother, brother Jack. Yeah I know but Yeah but it's Fre it's French isn't it? Yeah I know so it should be frere. I think it means brother. I know it means brother Jack but But that's how it is but it says frere innit? I know but why does it do that? Jenny, can I have No they say frere Jacque not frere O Jacque frere A Jacque. It's not frere Jacque it's frere Jacque. No the E, it's frere E Jacque. I never say frere A. Sir Sir Sir Sir Right okay Oh I need a pen, whoops bollocks. You can borrow one as well Alright, cheers. I've got lots today. I've only usually got about one pen. Suck on what? Yeah at the moment. Are you coming through the park? What are you going to the erm one o'clock club? What are you coming through the park for? Feel like it. Oh. No seriously I can't, I can't sing that song. What how does it go again? Erm boy, boy, crazy boy erm stay loose boy boy erm easy does it easy does it erm not talking to me for some reason. erm something like play it cool boy I don't know what it is, it's really crap though. something school boy Is Eleanor not talking to you? How do you know? whenever I try to like start a conversation I dunno if you haven't done anything wrong I mean most of the time I mean every time Eleanor's erm stopped talking to someone it's always usually erm her misunderstanding something . Remember the time we stopped talking to her and erm she just thought that you weren't talking to her because you probably didn't hear something she'd said? Do you remember? got it the wrong way round. Oh what does that poster say? Is that about the festival? Yeah it is. Can I go and read it? Maybe it might have some more information on it. No it might have some more information, I won't be a moment. I just wanna have a look at it! Alright! Look. Stop whispering about me. Oh yeah as if there's anyone else here to talk about round here that would, that would hear you. I ain't, no we're talking about the people who are getting in the van. What were you saying about them. Just Oh for God's sake. Yeah well I'm so used to you talking about me. Oh talk about you all the time? Yeah well no it's not as if you ever say anything nice about me. I can't believe I went to the toilet, yeah who was it? Oh! I know! That's what I thought. And then I came, I thought oh I can't find actually, there's some here right, and she weren't gonna give them to me and I sort of went in there and got them myself. No erm but I'm sorry but whoever did that needs a fucking good kick in the head you know. Yeah I know. If I find the person who did that, I mean even though it's, was no problem to me I'm gonna smack 'em I know. unless they're bigger than me or something but they, that is a just really really sick thing to do. I mean nice though aren't they? Mm? Those are nice. Lovely. Ow this thing's killing my neck. Oh I don't know what I want to do tonight. I really really I don't know tonight, I dunno. I dunno, you need to drink some of that vodka you was all gonna like stuf stock up soon that's the only thing. I know but I but I don't know if I can be bothered tonight. Tonight? Yeah. Get drunk or? Yeah. Mm. It makes me sick really. Well that's probably the vodka that makes you feel sick, if you drunk other things you might feel a bit better. No, no it's not cos if I drink other things then I feel really really sick, Yeah. I dunno. Well I dunno, it's up to you. I haven't got a clue what I wanna do tonight. Yeah I just haven't got a clue No not at all So anyway we've gotta go and see Yeah. alright? Yeah it should be showing at the Coronet shouldn't it? We'll give it a ring. Alright then. Alright? Alright see you later Cathy. Bye. Tt ooh! Ouch my neck hurts. Mm. Sorry about having a go at you two about talking about me all the time but I mean that's the w that's, that's the impression I've always got. Well you Cos every time I turn around yeah cos you two always sort of w looking at me and whispering and, you know,m half the time you have been talking about me cos I've heard you mention my name and it's not very nice. Yeah but me and Catherine really don't talk about you know. You do! People have told me. Well what have I said about you then? I don't know. Well then. But I mean I, I'm not stupid you know. I didn't say you were. Well seriously Cass like the only thing like that I've ever said about you like is that one day in the classroom right there was this picture of this naked woman on the right? Mm. And, and I drew some boobs on it and put Cassie next to it . But it was quite funny really . And also you said, you were going, you were taking the piss out of me about that thing I told you about something to do with Aaron erm When? when we were round at oh do you remember I told you about me, when I thought erm I saw Aaron try and touch my face, yeah? Yeah. Right when it was pitch dark, yeah, I was half, I was still pissed and I was half asleep and you were p taking the piss out of me behind my back about that. When? Catherine told me! What did I say? No I don't know what it was but Catherine was t telling me the other day about how erm oh I told you something about that and you t and you t were talking to her about it. Well I wasn't taking the piss out of you, I might have told her. Well she said you were. She said you were both taking the piss out of me. And like you know it's not even always behind my back, you two always sort of I mean Cath when I'm not er I mean like I, I mean I'm, I've gotta, I've gotta tell you some time because when I'm on my own with Catherine yeah? Mm. She agrees with everything I say, she's never horrible to me, but when you're around she's really horrible to me and like, even though she's agreed with something I've said earlier, she just sort of goes yeah right Cassie ha ha ha it's really funny and takes the piss out of it and you sort of go along with her and I just sort of have to stand there while you two stand there laughing at me and I don't like it. But she makes me laugh though. No it's, yeah well I know but I mean like it's not the point whether she makes you laugh. I dunno, whenever I'm with her though I'm always with you as well, like if I was with her right on her own Yeah. then I would like er we'd just talk about, I don't know whatever, she'd probably agree with everything I said as well because that's what Catherine's like but when she's like with the rest of us she I'm not, I'm not I'm not putting it on you anyway mostly it's c mainly fucking Catherine, I'm beginning to s not like her any more the way she's going and don't you dare mention a word of this that I'm saying to you say anything but I've gotta, I've gotta, I know, I've gotta get it off my back though because it's really pissing me off. Anyway she can just be such a bitch sometimes you don't really know her that well you know. No I know. No she does to you though cos she's always going on about other people talking about other people. I know, I mean er I mean yeah I've got used to her sort of like criticizing everything and everyone in sight cos I mean that's all she ever does is to criticize and complain. I know but when I'm with her a lot I really to talk about like is about other people so like I do it as well but like I don't Yeah well I do the same when I'm with her. I know, I know you know that I go on about Jenny Yeah. but I like, I like Jenny really. Yeah I know I like Jenny I mean, but I never really say anything bad about Jenny. say anything about you like it's only if I got nothing else to say really Yeah. about me don't you when I'm not there, yeah? No I don't, I don't. Well she might. Well she might erm no she's never, I don't think, I don't think she ever has said anything, she might have said it once but not that I can recall mys oh doesn't that look lovely with all them petals falling off the tree? Yeah stand underneath it, but anyway Have you seen our cherry tree in the garden ? We've got one of them in our front garden. It's one like that except a lot smaller with little red berries that grow off it in the spring. And it's really nice! Yeah but I mean anyway I dunno I just get really pissed off with Catherine. Yeah but I get really pissed off as well cos I well I, I won't like when I'm with other people like and I talk about other pe like when I talk about Jenny and then I feel sort of like really two faced when I like start talking to Jenny and stuff. Yeah I know but I mean Cos I mean like do you do that as well, you know when you're with Catherine like you talk about people like Rosie or anybody Yeah yeah I d do I mean I do that, yeah. I dunno who, who do I m I don't know, I d do that to s er see there is somebody that I do that quite a bit to but I can't remember who it is or a few people maybe. cos Jenny didn't even know that you could bloody put on weight by drinking. Yeah well it's a bit that's the truth though I mean that is a bit silly isn't it? Yeah. I mean I, I mean I dunno I mean I just, I just ha , I just had to tell you because I mean it really is pissing me off the way fucking Catherine treats me, she was alright before like and when I'm on my own, no What, before she met me. Yeah I mean I'm not, I'm not saying you're a bad influence on her now, I think she's just sort of jumping in at the chance for someone to victimize personally. And l and especially yesterday yeah, you know when we were standing in the foyer after school yeah? Yeah. And I, and you, you were going on about something to do with your job yeah? And I said I want a job and, and she said something like oh well it doesn't include you so ha ha ha ha and thought it was really funny. How would, how would she like it? That's like saying piss off I don't like you you stupid cow, why don't you go and kill yourself basically. Well you laughed and you were sort of and I just sort of told her and said shut up, shut up and stop being so bitchy. I've got it on tape I can prove it. cos I, I really like her, I think she's like really funny like so whenever she says anything then I laugh at it like cos I think I don't know actually I don't actually know why you find her so incredibly funny because I mean yeah she is funny, yeah, but th not to the extent that you find her funny like she'll be just standing there and you'll look at her and you'll start pissing your knickers. I know, I love the way she does like I mean if anyone else'd do something like that you wouldn't piss yourself you I know. and it's strange Mm. And I, and I and the way she goes, I think really funny as well. Yeah makes me laugh. The way she those things with like her face and stuff, I don't know, just the way she stands, everything about her just makes me laugh. Yeah I know. See there's lots of people that make me laugh, Liam makes me laugh. He don't make me laugh. I know so you know different people that make us laugh. Peter doesn't make me laugh at all. No Peter doesn't make me laugh either. Just thought I'd have to tell you that. Will you come, come with me to get some cigarettes? Quickly please. Where? Eh? Where? To the shop. Oh to heaven, where'd you think I'm gonna go Bonnie to get them? Ah? I'm only gonna be a couple of minutes. I've got so much bloody, I hate having so much stuff in my pockets it really really does annoy me. Ah where's my purse gone? That's such a stupid music lesson, don't you think? Yeah I I hate Mr I don't hate him but I mean Oh I do, I really he can be funny but sometimes he just goes over the top. I don't think he's funny I think he's Hi Cass. Hi Dan. Oh crisps! Well he's not the most unfunny but he's not incredibly funny. What, oh what didn't you know who it was so you just said hello Well I thought you said hi Dan. Oh it smells of erm spilt lager in here to me. Maybe. Oh I don't want any chocolate. And can I have ten B and H please? Can I have ten B and H please? No. Did we serve you cigarettes before? Yeah. Well you don't look old enough. I don't look old enough? People tell me I'm twenty and I'm seventeen. That's a compliment. Yeah I know. It wasn't an insult Ha? I've missed you. I need erm Yeah I know you told me You need what? What you doing up here anyway? Erm going back to Bonnie's house. There's nowhere to go is there really? Thank you very much Thanks. yesterday right in the park and he hugged me for about ten years. It's just the way he is innit? Goodbye. He's just so odd that boy, he just flirts with everything and everyone in sight, don't you reckon? I can't believe I used to go out with him. What? I knew you were gonna say something like that. Do you want a crisp? Oh go out with him I mean erm about two or three years ago. Oh that's alright Mm. went out with anyway. Oh shut up it's not true. Hello. Hello. How are you? Give me a kiss then. Thank you. Erm shall I see you around here? Yeah. Alright bye. 's really weird isn't he? Yeah. I was hoping you'd agree with me because it is true. How he walks up to me, he sort of looked at me yeah like, like he looked really went hello, give me a kiss then he's like some old man one who would say alright darling give me a kiss I know. He's old before his time. Ha? He gets old before his time, soon soon he'll be sitting at home with a Hmm fucking wouldn't be surprised. and the telly watching Coronation Street . His legs will probably fall off at some stupid rave if he's not careful he'll be dancing so much cos he's on twenty thousand and his bloody legs'll fall off. What? No. No? No How's it going? I don't know. I like your Don't ask, don't even talk to me about it. Why ? Cos it's beginning to really piss me off. Is it recording now? Yeah. I have to do a recording project Cassie No he said, I ah that was the one immature thing that I didn't want anyone to say right, I've got er to do a project Is it recording now? yes it's recording at the moment, yeah, right I'll tell you all about it now be quiet. I was a asked to a, a recording project, yeah, for an English university in Norway, six pupils, yeah? Which is to stud studying children's language and like their accents and the sort of language that they use, the way they talk Bollocks Basically it's just basically I've just gotta leave it recording and then like you, you sort of Yeah. And basically I've gotta leave it on all weekend and you've just got, forgot, forgot got to forget it's there and I have to record ten tapes by Monday which I have to get up at ten thirty in the morning when I've got no school and take it back up to the school. And I have to record ten tapes. I didn't have to do it, I didn't have to do it. That's all you've got recorded on the tape is explaining it to everybody what it bloody is . I know that's all I've got, everyone's going and I say blah blah blah blah blah and then someone else comes up and says what's that Walkman for and it's really beginning to annoy me. And I always have to fill out this book er all weekend as well. Are you getting paid for this? No. I just did it for a laugh. Tell them to fuck off. You're not getting paid for it! No I just did it for a laugh cos I want, I want everyone to know the most interesting language in the world which is part of my language isn't it? Have you said my tits are on fire yet? Yeah. Erm have I? I've got some bollocks on it about some girl in my class called Karen wanking or something and all sorts of other shit and like Not what's his name? no I don't know Who do you, what did you think I said? Erm what is this tape? Have you got band practice tonight then Dan? Don't be sarcastic with me matey. Give me a kiss. Are you alright? Yeah, think so. What did you do? Er why did, what do you mean Bedlam was doing a rave at At the Ha? At the rave at the Oh, did it cost anything to get in? No What the hell does that say? Oh, oh fuck it. Erm Have you played any of it back yet Cassie? Yeah it's really boring, I mean like Is it bad quality though? No it's good quality, these, this What? Who are you recording? This, I'm recording all this, I record all the conversations. now. Yeah. Yeah it's recording at the moment, I just have to record basic conversations that I have with anybody. Erm Yeah but I mean that's, that's not the thing cos that's not the sort of thing it is actually for though. I mean I know it's a laugh and everything. got bloody ten hours hours Er what's going on this weekend then? Dan? Anybody? What are you doing tonight? What? What do you mean, a festival? Like What in this weather? Yeah. Oh dear. oh for Christ's sake! I think I'll turn it off for a while actually. Hello Norwegian people hello erm I'd just like to say, yeah, if you're not doing anything on May the tenth right come to a gig at the Bull and Gate in Kentish Town, it'll be really good, honestly. Oh here you go. Ah. Walkman's fixed? Yeah cos I've got It's just an elec er just an electrical shop place. Dunno John Lewis fixed my Walkman. Are you still recording? Yeah. No way. You're not supposed to do that, I'm not really supposed to make you say this is the band come to the gig Oh sorry. but never mind. Sorry Norwegian people . But I mean it is Never mind. How was school then? How long have you been ? As long as it stops. As long as it plays I suppose. How was school? It was Mr trying to be funny and erm James and Alex and Danny laughing at him and thinking he's funny because they all fancy him and that, that was about it wasn't it Bonnie? That was about the most exciting part of the day wasn't it? I don't think women would even fancy Mr let alone men. Yeah I don't, I don't think even a fucking dog on heat would fancy Mr for Christ's sake. Is it still recording, yeah? Mm. We're doing that cos Mr 's not gonna hear unless I play it to him. No should I go to school and say here look listen to this sir, you'll find it very interesting. I don't, I dunno I, I can never work out whether I actually like Mr or not cos he can be, he can be, he's such a cunt sometimes he's a real cunt but he's er he's quite funny though. Dunno, what do you reckon on, on him Bon? He's not funny at all, he's a bastard and he and he's really really nasty I mean I know his sayings are most er erm fucking You know chuck him out right, the whole of the bloody lesson but you, you're not allowed to do that and then they chuck him out again. No and like they're, like Mr was like taking the piss yeah right, everyone was clapping and cheering about something in the class, yeah, and Mr opens the Mr opens the door and goes stop that clapping, and shuts the door. And that isn't funny is it? No but of course James and Danny ma erm and thingmajig find it incredibly funny because they're incredibly thick and they have no sense of humour at all. So you can hear mostly what I'm saying Yeah. but Quite clearly. that's because, you know, I'm better than everyone else so that's why everyone has to see wha everyone, everyone has to hear what I'm saying Mm I wanna go down to the pub tonight. Dan can you hear me? Say it again. I said Dan can you hear me. Ever so slightly. Is it? Yeah. Oh maybe the battery's running down, I mean can I hear it actually cos the batteries are running down. Well it's loud where you are but Oh just give it to me anyway. Right all say something. Fuck off. Erm Bonnie say something. Who me? Yeah hello. Mm no that's alright. Here you go. But erm anyway I don't, I don't want pe the Norwegian people thinking I'm a ragger Dan and hang out with raggers No but Cassie now I'm telling you now I saw the other day. No but when you doing with them trainers if you're not a ragger You've got there and they're sweet. my trainers. What? Oh I'm talking shit. No man I'm not your trainers. They are reg ragger shoes anyway, all the Yeah Yeah I know there's a boy, there's a boy in my school yeah who's got erm a blue pa you know Carl? He's got a blue pair of D M boots. Yeah and purple. I saw a group of raggers And purple? yeah like fucking heavy dealer type raggers all wearing paratroopers Paratroopers? Is that supposed to be some safe stupid. Oh did you pass? Cos it's been changed. What so it's the fourth of May now? Yeah. Have you passed your driving test then? No. No. No. No don't be silly. You're never gonna pass it. Oh oh! How many times you taken it now? Many a time. Twice? Yeah. If I don't pass it at the third time I'm just gonna give up cos I'm not failing more Third time lucky. yeah I'm not failing more times than Dan, I mean it's not really Just get, just get yourself a f just get yourself a false driving licence or somehow Oh yeah, yeah they're really easy to get hold of. just write, just get a big just get a big piece of paper and write driving licence on it. I know someone that sells them if you want one. See look, look seriously man I'd do that No I wouldn't. if I didn't fucking pass. I wouldn't. if you get pulled over and they realize it's false then you're well shagged apart from just driving a car you're also done for fraud. Mm. Well you're not the one who flipping made the driving licence so it should be the person you got it off for fraud. I think that's what Yeah well you bought it though didn't you ? So, you'd just say oh I didn't know it was erm false you just say Oh yeah I, I I, I really think that you can just go and buy driving licences over the counter just like that. Yeah. You should just say, just sort of pretend This geezer just pretend you're dunno this geezer from Bedlam yeah got stopped the other day in this car yeah, he was pissed, he was tripping and he was speeding yeah, no M O T, no licence, no tax, no ruddy insurance yeah right he's getting put away. I didn't know And a stolen car as well. Oh I thought, I thought and they let him go and I thought if you said that, you know bit unbelievable. Oh cheers Dan, you know great fucking present. Are those the ones, they're not the ones I gave you are they? No these are Ow my arse hurts sitting on here. Never mind. Your arse hurts ? Mm. Do you find that when you're sitting down on a hard floor and you stand up yeah and your arse hurts for about half an hour? That's what I found the other day anyway . gonna be listening to this tape yeah going what the fuck No but I mean like I think, I dunno it's quite funny though. Yeah can I have a look at that book yeah? No that's wicked. I wish I could do this. What for no money? I can imagine when you did it Daniel you'd like would be recording you and Honey having a conversation, forget it was on, start having a shag, yeah,and then like get this tape of you and Honey having sex What? What did you say? Oh! Say it again. I said I can imagine if you were doing this project yeah, like they'd like get this tape yeah of you and Honey having sex cos you forgot to turn it off after you had a conversation with Honey or something. Dan there's a lot of bollocks on it but never mind, it's not very interesting what I've written. I have to write what I've been talking about. Do you? What I don't un I don't un no you don't, er what I don't understand is why, instead of putting that in a booklet, why I ca why you can't just say what you're talking about before I mean ca just can't say all that bollocks before I'm gonna watch my programme now. What programme? Neighbours. his level won't it? Have you seen the new intro to Neighbours? No. They've got a new intro to Neighbours. What's it do? You've gotta watch it. What's it do? Fucking horrible man, it's like some sit-com It is a sit-com. and it, yeah I know but it's like some English sit-com introduction. It's well tacky. And have they changed the music? Yeah. Have they? What a whole new tu a whole new tune? Whole new tune, whole new image Oh I'll have to watch that then. Oh wicked. It's even more tacky now. You know, you know in erm Neighbours you know Todd dies yeah and Phoebe's pregnant? Yeah and so does Jim. Yeah appar so does what? Jim dies as well. Does he? Yeah. Oh I heard that Jim and Helen were gonna be the only two original cast left in Neighbours. No he dies. He stuffs it somehow, I think he gets run over. What as well as Todd, at the same time? Well maybe they're all standing same car though. Yeah I mean like, what was I gonna say? I thought Todd drowned in a lake? No I heard that Todd get hit, hit be a truck. Maybe the two are mixed up some way or another. It won't be for about a year and a half though. Maybe he get maybe he gets hit by a truck into a lake and drowns. Yeah or something like that but Or he said maybe like Todd's standing by the lake yeah and Jim's like pissed out of his head and comes driving along in the truck and drives his truck into the lake or something. Oh I don't think so somehow. Hitting Todd. Well you never know. We are talking about Neighbours. Yeah. But anyway yeah Todd comes back from the erm Todd comes back yeah as a ghost yeah like happened in Home and Away Yeah I heard about that. and says says, says erm and says erm said the Phoebe He comes into Home and Away. keep the baby, Phoebe keep the baby. Or Phoebe moves over to Home and Away. Phoe what Phoebe No no he comes back as a ghost just to I think he comes back Just like Meg did in Home in Home and away. No that'd be that'd be so funny if er like if they all They were al always doing things like that in Dallas and Dynasty though aren't they? Always swapping I watched Dallas the other day and guess who was in it? Who? Lovejoy. Lovejoy was in Dallas ? Lovejoy was in Dallas. Yeah. You're kidding ! He's wicked. Oh my God. That's quite strange actually. And he looked really young. Ah! Oh what was it like an old Dallas? Yeah cos they've started it all over again. Yeah. Can you have that for me please? No, What was Lovejoy doing in Dallas? I've got absolutely no idea. Where's, where's, where are the leads Dan?aerial Up my arse. Probably down, down What pub you going to tonight? I dunno I just said I wanted to go to a pub I didn't say I was going to the pub. What are you doing tonight? Dunno probably going home and going to sleep. You're going home and going to sleep? Are you going to a rave tomorrow? No. Might be though, depends. Go on tell me what, what, what were you going on wh what happened last night? Is that off? No why? Why do you want me to turn it off? Mm. What is that? No it's gonna be our punk anthem our new punk anthem it's gonna be brilliant. Where did you get it from though? Cos I remember you singing it a while ago but where did you get it from? Aaron got too little and too young Erm not enough drinking well hung hung erm too little smoking, iron lung. Oh yeah that's really silly. Do you know the geezer on the door at the Raven yeah? Yeah he's a cunt. So I went to the ravey last night, right, I went down there with Bedlam yeah and I was doing a rave with Bedlam right and he came up to me and he goes so what are your musical tastes then? Cos like he was confused cos I'm there with like a metal band and then like I'm there with a rave group. What did you say? I said I don't really. You should've said fuck off you cunt. When's Neighbours on cos I wanna see that flash intro again. Yeah we're watching it. Oh yeah . Have you seen it yeah? It's so nasty. man what are we gonna do tonight? Are you gonna do anything tonight at all? I might Is there a new pictures and stuff Down the Stitches? No. Could you pass us that and swap it for that? No. Dan Danny what? Tell Danny I've got his rucksack. I've still got your belt. It's a shame, it's a shame What are you singing that? It was much better when It was that Monie Love wasn't it? Or someone. I don't know, I don't know the names of them. It's funny how you know the words. You listen to Capital F M don't you? No I just heard it as I was going walking past the pub and it was on. Oh lovely so brilliant, that's always a good excuse. No Can I have a light Dan? Anyone? Lights? lighting no roll up for you. Fuck off. Nick are those new combats? Oh cheers what happened to them? Too expensive. Bensons have gone up after all their adverts about staying at one ninety nine or something they've gone up. No no they've gone up again. I can't believe I actually bought Benson but they never said that They did, they had all these adverts still at one ninety nine That's worse. That's worse cos roll up is a man's, a man's cigarette. Bensons were never one ninety nine. No I mean, I mean Lamberts. Oh right. They're one ninety five in my shop. What Lambert and Butler have gone up? apart from er Benson. So well how does Lambert and Butler relate to Benson and Hedges? You know what I mean. Yeah but other than that. conversation fags anyway. Dan don't you wanna come and see Body of Evidence tomorrow? Why not. Oh it's shit by the way, don't go and see it. Have you seen it? No but I've heard. Yeah so have I. Everyone's heard Everybody's heard I know everybody's heard that it's shit, I still wanna go and see it Go on then! cos cos everyone, everyone yeah that says the films are shit yeah like when people, people like us go and see them we always think they're good. Oi don't smoke that. Oi don't smoke that cos it's bad for you. Except Body of Evidence I suspect . No some films like people say they're bad and they're right and they're just genuinely bad. Hang on man. some film about Madonna's arse. I'll watch it. Give me, give me my cigarette. Wait wait. Don't you look at me like that or I'll shove it up your arse. Erm ashtray, ashtray Oh dear. Oh I don't know what to do tonight. Nor do I. Mm. There's a party somewhere No party round here somewhere. No I don't fancy going to a party I don't think. And they've all got the same moves when they get hit as well, all the same Er What you holding that over my trousers for? Oi Dan Incentive. Dan what are the boys toilets like at Stokey? Erm Really nasty. pretty smelly, why? I just wondered. I wondered if they were any better than the girls toilets cos And hello Norwegian people. Oh will you leave it alone . Ha? Pretty terrible No no cos it couldn't be worse than the one in the girls toilets today seeing as someone shat on the floor not bad. shat on the floor? you can, you can you know they're bad toilets On the floor? Mm. Shat in the floor? The ones in the erm main school? Oh main school, they're not proper toilets anyway. No they're quite terrible. They were shut today anyway. No Nick did you hear that? Some girl shat on the toilet floor today. sort of I mean if you'd got that far A pretty big shit a pretty big sh no it's that like that far away from the toilet, the actual toilet seat. Yeah I mean like if you've got that close I dunno does it make any sense, like you could at least sort of fall back on the toilet or something. Yeah are they gonna have a big assembly where, where like Mr, Mr goes now I'm sorry there's Yeah he goes no shitting allowed on the floor. no shitting on the floor in the toilets. And we're going to find the person that did it you know cos last it was no, no smoking in the toilets and then there's no smoking dope in the toilets And then no shitting in the toilets . and no jacking up in the toilets. No shitting in the toilet now. Whoops. Who's gonna go and answer the door? They're all downstairs watching Yeah I know but I mean they, they won't get it. Oh maybe they will. Hello, bell rings and no one answers the door. Well I was How'd you get in then? Well there you go. But you rung the doorbell anyway. No she rung the doorbell. Ow! Oh we've got a gig but we don't know if we're gonna do it yet. What the tenth of May one or? No, twenty ninth Where? of May the, the Pink Parachute Club in Lewisham. It's through Sylvie, you know Sylvie You what? It's like strange Back to the planet This was in the paper you know Was it? it was in Melody Maker last week saying everybody get down to Cliffs Shit! Anorak Lovechild. Who are they? I mean they're really shit they are. Are they? reggae sound, urgh. Trouble is you're doing a rave there as well. Are they? What, what, afterwards or what? No right. Ah. Er I've got lots of erm Oh yeah Aaron sorry about that. What ha was he alright? He just wants to beat the fuck out of everyone it's like what's happened, is Jim still like that? Dunno. He's still like that I don't know Cos he said oh I should've just hit him there and then and I said yeah instead of fucking hanging about and pissing your mates off, you know what I mean? It's out of order. Well you anyway. What was he still like that afterwards? What on the bus and stuff? What was that? Last weekend right little Jimmy, you know Alex's mate just comes up to Yeah and goes I'm gonna fucking kill you right he was really like No it was just it was just that he, he, he wound you, he wound up, he said oh someone's looking for you cos he wanted to get rid of him Yeah yeah exactly. and er And so then said you're telling porkies as a joke or something and Jimmy went what you bloody talking about I thought it was excellent when he was saying look right, no one slags off my What is that Dan? About what? The papers ? When did he show you that? he was sitting outside Don't slag his band off Yeah and then, and then he's coming You what? Something he learned in one of his biology lessons, when he doesn't do any work. I swear this thing's bloody running down. Oh ? Yeah. That's supposed to be Hello, hello Well that's what they'd said to Melody Maker. Yeah that's what they'd said to Melody Maker. Oh right. But yeah so does he still write that? Does he write that week or what? Hello hello Are you coming to this party tomorrow? Tomorrow. Which party? Some girl called Nina from your school. Yeah yeah I'll go It's like, but I'm only going to get out of erm this band leave about quarter to eight eh? Yeah that means we get them, gotta meet Danny as well. He's popping to you, he said he was, he said to me he's going to your house at nine. Oh right, well I told him to ring and not turn up if I'm not there. Well ring, he said he'd ring you instead but Oh yeah yeah that's it, he's ringing you instead. So have you seen Jim at all during the week? Yeah I saw him on S Sunday. Was he still going oh No. Is my twenty fifth of May tape at your house? Yeah. I mean I don't like, I mean I wouldn't do that to I mean that's out of order you know. Well it's out of order to anyone. Well what happened? Oh Jim just started a row with . Why? What, what was it about? Absolutely nothing. Oi Dan Er? are you a mechanical man? Am I a mechanical man? Yeah. Would it, would it be, yeah, you see this microphone here yeah would it be yeah every time erm this microphone like got a sharp noise hit to it yeah would it like sort of stop working for a while? Oh right when the, when, when noise is too loud they just cut cos they can't cope with it. Well a little one like this anyway. Great cos I I was like sitting there blowing down it seeing if it'd work and it would sort of stop working completely. No see that stops it. It'll start working in a minute, hello, hello hello What that microphone needs is Dan have you got a rubber in here anywhere? Er yeah. Dan? Dan? Victoria Wood's quite an attractive bird for a fat lady. That's Hello, hello oh God even when I fucking shout into it it fucking cuts out. What? Victoria Wood's Ah! Don't turn that down. Turn it up. Look, but anyway yeah really cool, right It's, that's er flicking now and again. No I've only just put the, it's just cos of the microphone's on too much er I've only just put the batteries in, some new batteries in. It's dulling. No it's only cos it, it seems to dull when I sh turn it up. Hello hello hello, so you see Does it make any difference? Hello, I don't hello, yeah I can't hear anything,dunno What? Well I just wondered if turning it down made any difference. I dunno. Dan Dan have you got a m a erm rubber? A rubber? A rubber. I've just gotta rub something out in the book. Ha? Shall I stop this? No no just leave it recording. You just farted in my head . You can just, you can just hear what everyone's saying, it just shows you what it picks up. Cassie. What? No no don't, no don't You silly boy! Now can I have a proper rubber? Oh that takes the piss. Nasty. This has gotta be taped. Oh they're not answering. Hello this is erm Alex from the erm sorry the guitarist just farted in my head and so I'm a, I'm a bit sort of like disturbed at the moment but erm yeah the gig on the twenty ninth yeah? Where, where exactly is it, the Pink Parachute Club? Did you actually just say that to the bloke? right oh it's at the Labour Club right is that, is that alright with everyone? Are you talking to someone? Yeah. Oh right . We, we'll do it yeah cos we'll, we'll do anything The Labour Club? but erm what, what do I play? I'm the drummer where do we usually play erm sort of Finsbury Park Oi, someone get me a rubber please. we play at the oh how did you get Just take the microphone of your thing otherwise all you'll hear is you speaking. Yeah I know, I mean but like where am I supposed to put it? I mean I can't walk around holding it it's a bit annoying. Or I supp yeah I see what you mean. Leave it on the settee or something. Yeah cos then it doesn't cut out every time I talk, look see, look put it on your head yeah right No it does cut out, it doesn't cut out No look if I talk into it quite loud like this it cuts out and then it takes a while to come back on again okay is that alright? I know if I turn it off now it should be alright, yeah? Is that better? Yeah I mean we, we've got quite a bit of a follow on down in er the Lewisham area Cheers. so we should get Okay is there, is there a house kit, drum kit? Can you lot remind me to take this when I go? Yeah. Cos I'm gonna stick it in front of the T V so I don't keep sh screaming into it. I was in the supermarket the other day I was in the supermarket the other day and then this bloke, I saw this bloke pick up this massive bottle of er vinegar right, and he took the top off there was some old woman just going down the aisle and he just started pouring it all over her Yeah! and describe, well seasoned you know and and then he got his lighter out and he just set fire to her Bloody hell! and erm I don't know what was going on, apparently he was working for Sarsons. I went to the doctor the other day Oh no! and er sounded just like Alex junior. and er yeah and the doctor said to me you've got hypochondria Fucking hell! That sounds remarkably like someone else . Oh you fucker! Go and get me a drink Aaron Alright, hang on. nice and like weak glass of er of very cold Is somebody actually coming to band practice? That is the photo that he uses No that's the old one, that's the old one. Who's that? That's my dad. Is it? In the bigger photo his eyes just look so red he's like going urgh Is that your dad in Australia or the one that's No that's my real one. I mean my false one. Yeah you're false one . How can you have a false dad? That's a brilliant photo. Can you just imagine him going ooh no sorry he's not here and in the bigger one there's someone taking a picture er I don't really no . But damn it it was so wicked, remember the flash geezer from the seventies, yeah, they're going right just down the road, they're all going I don't like him and he's going look just let me do it my way and you do it yours right and he's going and then the flash one comes in, it was Greenwich yeah, he owns this like Yeah. coffee shop it was something like It was Blackheath yeah Blackheath village, and like loons and like flares and stuff yeah and he says, they say it was Flares are us. yeah flares are us, Peter Richardson but he was playing this like I can't remember who it was,s early seventies seventy one seventy two kind of like detective yeah and they say whoa how the bloody hell do you solve crimes? Jason his name was. Yeah, cos they find out right that he's erm I don't know his basic name. Well my dad said it was someone who was on but I don't know who it was I think it was like, it was just like yeah just like Steed from erm like Dan can ? the Avengers or something but more camp. and they're going the flares are us and he goes bloody southern bastards he just stares out of the window , yeah, just stares out the windows right and like they run down the stairs and run back up the stairs, yeah, and they're looking out the window out the window and they go why the bloody hell are you always just looking out of windows and he's going do it your way and I'll do it mine. And then Jason yeah and they're like saying, they say look it was an early seventies crime you've gotta help us, how would you handle it because they're not allowed to use fast cars and guns and he goes find a country house yeah, and I, I would find a country house cos that's where all the crimes happened in the early seventies, I'd go in, make myself at home and smoke fifty cigarettes and drink a bottle of claret and nab the bastards. And he s and then in the end, do you know how like Steed and goes oh I think there should be a manor just up here You know what Steed did in the Avengers yeah, the way he likes hits people with his cane and looks like he isn't actually Yeah. fighting, yeah, well they finally get Spender and the bloke from the Sweeney and the trying to shoot him but Spender's going that won't work, they don't things like that any more cos they can't use shooters yeah, and then this flash guy comes up and goes so what are you gonna do That's because it's because you can't shoot people from like really far away It's like, yeah two hundred yards in the seventies in the seventies but like er you can do it in the seventies you can't do it in the nineties. And then this guy comes up and like yeah and he comes up three yards away and he's like going oh what you gonna do then poof and he goes I will look like I'm scraping my knee, nuts him in the balls, and then goes and I will knock some dust off my shoulder like And take, take a, take a sip of wine. and goes boom! Oh yeah the gourmet chef was excellent, yeah, the way they were trying to integrate these two recipes into one show Yeah it's and two recipes and he no the gourmet like detective yeah and they come in and they go God that was a tough crime and he'd go after a crime I like something to eat and then he goes into the kitchen and he's going you can over do it with the carrots but if you're a carrot man you might wanna sprinkle some extras on What is this? Hello. Erm Comic Strip last night. Hello. Come on let's get going then lads. So are we doing a gig on May the tenth? May tenth, at the Gate And another one. and then another one on when was it? The twenty ninth of May. Okay come on Feedback online Right it goes to show it's working so if I just get rid of the earphones. Whoops. Oh for fuck's sake what's happened? It's I'll have to bring it down and erm You have to pull it out so you can go Mm. just take this off of here come through here Come on then. Oh God the shops are so far away now. No they're not. Oh they are, they're miles. Aaron Aaron Yeah I think I'm gonna just buy a big bottle of Coke Yeah. okay cos they'll all want some, they'll all give me about ten P which isn't much I suppose me Dan and Honey'll be going back the cheap way. Are they asleep? They were lunchtime cos drawing the curtains. Was he. Hallo. oh hello Did you burn your bum on the radiator. I fucking did man. burnt my bottom I woke, it woke me up gonna come off. I know you like it really Hang o hung over Dan? No not at all. Yeah we're going to the shop, okay, so Yeah. Do, do you two need anything from the shop? Did you get any fag ? Dan man you've got th Dan you know the tape that we were recording last night, you've gotta hear it yeah there's this bit, yeah, where erm Alex just walks off yeah with the Walkman yeah and he goes into the toilet Yeah. and records himself going for a piss but he does a bit, it cuts out when he's actually pissing but he's going on about now the biros are getting in the way of my knob here and stuff like that and then he, then it cuts out, yeah, and then it, then it turns back on again and he says yes I think we're working and flushes the toilet and walks out Oh it's got, got And there's all this stuff gonna be wicked, they're gonna have a field day it's got me going up to Alex saying er er no one wants to do it with me and he's going look I'll sleep with you man so I'm going It's so funny though Dan I swear. Er see you in a bit. Alright. Hang on, hang on Has anyone got some spare money I could pay 'em back? I haven't got any no, I can't And I've borrowed money to go out to shops in the first place How much money have you got on you Dan? What? Dan how much money have you got on you? Oh sod it, forget it I'll just Did you are you trying to tell me you spent two quid last night? I mean twenty quid. No. I've lost some though. No well, well if you just put in ha what are you planning on buying, a two litre or a one litre bottle? I don't know yet. There you are, there's enough for some Coke. Right. Oh I'll just get her a separate can of Coke then. Okay. if you see a bank Ha? if you see a bank Mm. a Nat West you can get money out Yeah. Ooh! Blimey. Ha? Just milk. Oh what, what did you piss? Yeah. Oh lovely. Well I don't know Deary me, I was well drunk I s I haven't been, I haven't been that drunk since the Playpen gig. What, what did you drink? I mean I drunk rum I, I didn't have got through about a third of the bottle. I know and for some reason I was incredibly pissed. I can't really handle rum, that's why I didn't drink any last night. No I know. I can a bit but I ca I can't hold my spirits in that's the only thing. Well the thing is I can't handle rum cos when I went to that party Dan had Yeah. No actually come to think of it I was really pissed at erm Dan 's party as well actually. No no not Dan 's Bonnie's party sorry and I, I'd had er Did Bonnie enjoy herself in the end? Cos I know that like she said she did but I know she was getting really pissed off cos everyone was sticking on the music she wasn't interested in and stuff. Er yeah I think she, yeah she did enjoy herself, that's what she said to me. Er I drunk erm I think I drunk two two cans or maybe three cans of Scrumpy Jack and then a can of Supertricks and I was well gone I, I had to pass out. The reason I can't drink rum or vodka Or any kind of spirit. or is because Mm. this was a long time ago parties about two years ago yeah. I drunk half a pint of rum, half a pint of vodka and three or four cans of Oh yuck! That is sick. And I was really wrecked and I was I wasn't even actually ill I just sat, well I was eventually but I sat on this wall for about four hours, yeah Mm. and it seemed like ten minutes, yeah, but like Jim came out and said do you realize you've been out here for hours man and like erm just like all the this party Yeah. but ever since I've never been able to handle it like I drink, sort of shove a few But you drink whisky though. Oh whisky's easy. Yeah I know I mean like I ca I, I can't, I can't hold down my spirits, I can hold down erm lager though. Well I dunno, I can't work out what I can drink best. The secret of drinking is just to know when to stop, you know you've just got I know. gotta recognize when you get to a certain stage that like if you drink any more you're gonna be ill. Yeah I know but I mean like my mum was saying that you know sometimes you're just pissed to stop and you just com carry on and stuff. Yeah. Do you reckon Dan might let me have a bit of toast when I get back or something? Yeah probably. Cos I, I just wanna line my I mean I think we have taken liberty a bit with his parents but yeah I think you will be able to get some toast. Yeah it's, it's just I wanna, I don't, I mean I, like my dinner last night yeah was a packet of Whotsits, packet of beef flavoured Hula Hoops erm a packet of erm Monster Munch er two chocolate bars and a can of Coke. Monster Munch What was that? Oh well but I mean probably wouldn't get any sex have enough time anyway. Yeah, no no I w I ate, that was my dinner, I ate that before I was pissed and that was my bloody dinner, I wanted to get some chips no one would walk down the chippie with me. I had a nice dinner last night, I didn't have my chips but I managed to get Yeah. I wish I could cook that easily. It's dead easy. Yeah I know. Just as long as you just as long as you know what, what doesn't go in what then like you can just chuck any old thing in. I'll cook curry or lasagne but I never knew, I never knew the recipes I just sort of stuff and think that goes together well Yeah. I mean Zed makes really really really really nice chilli. Mm. Yeah. Fucking makes a nice chilli as well. No Zed's a really good bloke when he's sober . Yeah when he's not on fucking drugs, I'm, I'm really worried about him now you know down there No because I mean I don't know. It's not just, it's not just the fact that like he's my boyfriend, I've known him since I was bloody six or something. Erm where's all the crisps and everything? Is there any? Have you got any crisps? Oh,sorry Ooh! Oh I might get some have you got sal any salt and vinegar ones of these? Mm alright. yeah. Yeah I know it's, I just, it's just I like these ones in particular. Get this Cass. What? like Pepsi. One pound how ca come? I don't know. That should b only be like about eighty nine P or something usually. It's a rip off. Well if you d yeah if you were buying, I was gonna say if you were buying cheap you shouldn't buy cheap coke, it's alright to buy cheap lemonade but not coke. Yeah. they all said Coke. Yeah. Mm. Yeah I remember Honey wants a can of Coke. Have they got any of them cold? Well no, ooh dunno, don't think so. Have you noticed the way Coke tastes so much nicer when it's a glass bottle? Yeah. It does doesn't it? It's weird innit? I don't know if I want any chocolate or not. I want lots of crisps though. One sixty three please. Cheers. Is that yours? Where you going? Ha? I wanna get some fags. Well you can get cigarettes from there can't you? Er I don't remember seeing any. I think you can. Do they? Do you, yeah, do you sell cigarettes? No they don't. That's odd, going into a shop that sells everything else but no cigarettes. Well it's not really cos it's a general store Yeah, I don't know it's just a bit strange. Oh. bank anywhere. I my money l last time and they took up the limit on my cash card. Yeah. Do they do them in there? They must Oh. How many cigarettes have I got left actually? Look oh well, yeah but that stuff's horrible though. forty fifty, yeah I've got enough to get home. How comes you're not at university though? Is it still Easter break for you? I get a month off. Oh what a lucky bastard. months off. I haven't got, I haven't got any school on Monday but I have gotta get up early. Actually, I don't half fancy a chocolate drink in here. Do you think I should buy one? Mm? One of them chocolate things. How much are they? Dunno, I'll ask. How much are these? Excuse me. Excuse me, how much are these? Er fifty P. Fifty. It's not worth it. Oh God they look well nice as well. The Mars Bars might be cheaper. Yeah oh I dunno but they're sort of too thick and gooey. Yeah. No I mean, I dunno. Oh don't worry about it. Is that Pepsi or Coke you've got there? Pepsi. Fine. I bet you prefer Pepsi anyway. I prefer Coke but never mind. Oh sorry. That's alright. What year are you at school now? The fourth. so young. I know, every, everyone says that to me, it's not fair. Right gotta make sure she sends me a birthday card. Well when's your birthday? In about two weeks' time not even that much, yeah about two weeks I suppose on May the ninth it's my twentieth birthday. Oh May the ninth? That's when the festival is in the park. Yeah? Yeah. Well I'll have to get hold of your address and I'll send you a birthday card but I might not actually send you a real birthday card, I'll probably send you like a piece of paper saying happy birthday or something. Yeah alright, that'll do someone remembers. Yeah. I don't mind it's just that Mm. God you're gonna be fucking twenty. sort of keep in touch. Yeah. Ah we were supposed to be gonna like have a little gathering for my birthday party, well not normally a birthday party Are you gonna come down for the festival? No I'm not, I don't think I am gonna come down cos I've been down so long anyway Yeah. but what I meant was is that we were gonna have a sort of a little gathering before but I suppose we could have that today sort of. What today? Well you know la later on. Yeah. And I, I dunno, are you gonna go to the party tonight? I do I don't know, I doubt it. Yeah? Oh well see how it goes. I mi I might, I might go I mean it depends on money things and stuff. What like you finding a fiver in the street sort of thing? Yeah see I've only got like erm two quid on me and I need to get home tomorrow and and I won't have anywhere to stay cos Dan and Honey aren't going and I'd rather stick with them and Emma and Nick and just go back to erm Nick's house Yeah. I mean you know I can't be bothered trying to so I don't think I will go. Well I dunno I mean you can still be you can stay at my place. Can I? Erm I dunno I think I might just go home and go out with Bonnie and Catherine and see Body of Evidence. No actually I've gotta see Zed Yeah some time this weekend, I sort of you really haven't you? Well I don't know he's, he's a bit ill really so You'd better see if he's still alive. I'll see if he's still alive, yeah I know. I can't be bothered trying to talk him out of taking drugs cos it won't work. No. He'll find out in his own time. I mean does he really go over the top? Ha? Does he really go over the top? Yeah I mean I'm not all I'm not, he told me not to s actually say what was wrong with him though, I can't say. Well that's that's alright, no no Yeah. I understand that it's just that I mean if he keels over and like goes into a coma then I'm all then I'm allowed to say what was wrong with him but I mean yeah he did do he sa I don't know he said, said he went to the he kept on getting it, offered of speed and he just sort of took more and more and more and people were saying that he couldn't walk straight and stuff which er But what what about the Playpen as well? Yeah I know he took fucking and drank quite a lot as well and he was well buggered. I don't know he's a really nice bloke oth otherwise but I know. because like when I see him, you know, and he has been sorted out a bit recently not really sorted Not, not in particular. not properly but he's been better Not espe only a little bit though. Well no but I mean I mean he's not doing speed every day now but I mean well he's to weekends a little bit. Ha? He normally to weekends now. Yeah. But I mean I dunno it's just that he was, he was, you know he can be a really nice bloke Yeah I mean like it's like he's got he's just got old before his time really hasn't he? Yeah he has. Well, well too old, he's gonna be fucking That's what I mean about when he sort of ran off that night I thought, in one way I was pissed off with him but in one way I thought well at least he can you know? Yeah. Well yeah I mean, I mean the thing is it's like why have you got those headphones round your neck? Why've I got what? Why have you got headphones round your neck ? Well because you were giving me feedback so I Oh right I didn't, I thought I just left it there. No the thing is I mean like Z Z Z Zed's, Zed's, Zed's not just a boyfriend to me because he's a real good friend of mine as well. what was that? What for? Well it's a special technique for getting in Dan 's house without annoying his parents. Oh right. Only last night I got here first They've got the window open so Oh we'll get in through the window then, that'll be a laugh. Oh what throw it through the window . Yeah careful you don't smash the window. I nearly did last night. Oi! Cor this is I know it's horrible innit? Hello. Hello. Ha? Oh a nice clean bedroom. Oh I got it didn't I? Oh where's my little f yeah there, there it is. Dan. Yeah. We've gotta set up this little D J yeah, D J's corner in the basement Stitch is there a Stitch is there a possibility I could have a bit of toast or something? Erm no. Yeah. Yeah. Is that alright? Oh by the way the thing's recording Right let's have a conversation. Oh bollocks. Mm. Mm. Interesting. Mm. flavoured erm prawn cocktail and erm erm chicken and chilli er no cheese and chilli Mm. Actually I've had like a sober conversation now because, think about it yeah, Mm. everyone's normal and relaxed. A really sad bloke on that tape. That's hilarious . I hope they realized it was a joke. taking it seriously I mean the whole thing trying to get in my bed. Look whatever you do don't say We don't say our names Aaron okay? Okay Dan, and don't mention . Look my name's, right, my name's Steve And I'm Dan You're Alan. No you're not Dan . No no no I'm Dave and you're Alan. And I'm Dave Allen? And you're Jasper Carrott. And I'm Steve as Martin. What's my name then? Fuck you . got a good idea yeah, you know No I can, I can make perfect roll ups now bit like Dan did you know that he pissed out of the window this morning? Oh God yeah . so much shit it's coming out his mouth he's telling Cassie liquid gold in gold shield. Put liquid, like actually the metal gold? Yeah. Who said this? Zed. No ! He's not serious? He wa well I didn't What's the point of smoking gold? Yeah it would be considerably more expensive as well. I know. All it is is just the, like the colour or You know it's sort of mixed gold but like a minuscule amount No it's just the plant, it's just like it just produces a gold kind of coloured dye. No leave it alone, please. You've got your own Oh yeah yeah It's that sort of dark but not heavy, yeah man, that's really groovy. How do you avoid aquaplaning? Aquaplaning? No that's what happens if it happens but how would you avoid it? I know How do you avoid it? Don't go at sixty. Yeah don't go over sixty and also and literally I've been working er and not like in a shop, you know, from nine in the morning till six at night Yeah. Don't accelerate maybe? I dunno, can't really think. I haven't learnt my Highway Code and all that sort of shit. Right well erm yeah always replace worn tyres. Oh yeah. That's a thing you forget about is all the really obvious things. Mm. can you move round a bit Yeah. cos these people are like gonna sit there. I mean move over there you, you can't sit on the bed It is, it's like your dad My dad, is it? Yeah. Yeah. But the last stuff my dad got us wasn't Dunno. But the stuff we got, the stuff we got before that was really good you know Dan, do you remember the stuff he got us before that? The stuff he got us before was That's like the stuff we got Billy. Yeah. Remember that stuff I got Billy? It was like that. That's what it is, that's what it was. Yeah the stuff that, the stuff he got us before was a bit like that You know I but it was softer wasn't it? Oh right, yeah yeah yeah I know. Why ? really good. Yeah. It is good isn't it? A bolus. When you get really cos Aaron what's a bolus. A bolus? It's a bit of food. When you swallow and like you've got this chunk of shit being digested and it goes through down your canal via peristalsis it's called a bolus. Told you. It's also this sort of three roped thing that you go whooooooo Oh yeah but that's bolas. So if you've got a huge piece of Dan this song right is all about Sam Dan this song it's all about Sam and how he's coming. Coming to what? Well he's just like What is it? Get off the bed please . What is it? It's about Sam and then how he comes and arrives he's on his way. Oh yeah man it's Sam. like Marley man. Sam is coming our way Sam is coming our way the Wailers are so out of time, they're all just like is just so slow it's just like exactly the same but like about twenty times slower. Mm. is this recording? Dunno. Are you still recording? Where are the headphones? Yeah it is, yeah. Where are the headphones? Oh, Danny had them. Dan What? Have you got the headphones? Yeah they're over there. Well I just have to plug myself in man. jack in Yeah I will. No no you jack in when like you've got this big bit of metal Turn the volume down on the tape, on the Ah watch it. It's cos the volume's up on ten. Is it? Yeah. Oh right. See look Yeah. Oh is the battery alright? Bit dim Yeah for some, for some reason the microphone Fuck . this is weird cos it's like happening like really late Hello Dan, can you hear me. And what was it you wanted to do? Oh yeah this party tonight was really get this, this spliff right like this, yeah, just walk in the kitchen and go ras man No don't say anything. No you just walk in say nothing No light off the stove right you go, have you got a light man Page, page three school Page three school ? Haven't you seen No. page three school all these girls go off to like school with their togs off, you know or they turn up at the gates and go shit Mr like the headmaster's on the door and my nipples are in and they go hang on I've got some ice cubes here, put them on and they come out and er they go by the nipples, your nipples are looking good today. And like they on the bus, yeah, cos all, all the little school girls are sitting there with these huge tits out I think it's disgusting you blokes staring at it and the girls go we don't mind, you know and then, and then all the other like passengers are going yeah that's right if the girls wanna get them out it's great, it's a bit of fun, it livens up me day. What was that Dan? Oh yeah erm don't laugh so loud cos you're likely cut out the microphone. Oh sorry Has anyone got like a can I borrow a bit of ? are they a kind of Shakespeare Sister then? What is this? Yeah I suppose so. You would as well. Mm What shall I say our occupation is? Buggered completely buggered. No we're students. We're buggered as well but we're Buggered students. Put dossers. That about sums it up don't you reckon? Mm. How to reduce frustration and anxiety Is this Marley? Yeah. not so rasta. But he is, he's really mellow. Is this your driving book? Yeah. It is so fucking nerve-wracking it's alright when you're waiting I think I've gotta get I think I've got my instructors might be You can't no, he won't be able to. Oh. No you, they can stay in the car while you have your test Oh right. but they can't actually test you. Yours would put you off, he'd keep talking about birds and things Yeah so does mine. He doesn't talk about birds that much he just sort of, now and again he'll say shit and I'll look round and I'll see these like really cool legs going I bet you two just drive on It's pretty funny, I mean you've gotta go ha ha ha. what's that, it's like a hammer it's that big you could do something huge with that, you could go and like I won't let them listen to it, completely confidential I mean do they get your name and address and everything? Ha? The people who like got you to do it get your name and address and everything? Erm I should think so cos you could run off with the machine. We're all gonna get arrested you know. Oh shit When driving straight ahead at a roundabout should you normally A use the left lane or B use the right lane? Well what was that about? When When driving straight ahead at a roundabout should you normally A use the left lane or B use the right lane? The right lane. Beep beep. Really? Yeah. You always use the left lane. yeah sorry sorry sorry. Why would you go into the wrong lane to a roundabout? What tip for a driving test, yeah? Okay, hang on, on finding yourself in a wrong lane at a junction, Dan Dan Yeah? on finding yourself at the wrong lane at a junction should you A stay in it and miss your road, B and wait until you can change or C signal and move over quickly? Well mirror signal and move over. Well C. Beep beep. Oh B Really? stay in it and miss your r yeah you, look, if you've done something you stay with it. You don't but there's these mad people, they don't indicate they just go brrrrrrr ahead and they pull in and this Escort this bloke and his bird, right, and then ahead wouldn't like it clears up a bit in, in the Blackwall tunnel but it's still like sort of five yards in between each car and he's just like moving from lane to lane without signalling or anything Fucking hell. and everyone's sort of going I had this really weird dream yesterday about handbrake turns I dreamt I was like going, I can't remember what was, what I was doing, I was running, I was driving away from somebody, yeah, Did you do a handbrake turn? and I did a handbrake turn, yeah, and it didn't work and I went whizzing into a tree totalled the car. What were you driving? really odd dream once yeah I dreamt, I dreamt this tube of, tube of toothpaste was trying to get me and every time it hit me I lost What? Too much computer games. I dreamt we were all playing what would do in this situation in crocodile skin boots. Oh they're wicked. Did you see that snakeskin jacket at party yeah I was in the toilet yeah and this bloke comes in and goes oh and I'd only got like a hit's worth left Where? toilet, in Bon's, in Dan's loo at Bon's party cos I'm going round going oh no no no no I'll give you a fiver for it I went I really don't want to sell and in the end like I just said to him look just fuck off, you know cos like he was just persistent Yeah. What time is it? Er about ten past twelve. starts to work. Oi think of a project for me that I can do for the next seven weeks. What can he do for Right draw er loads of people with their heads being blown off . Yeah that's a good What's that? Loads of people with their heads being blown off. On what? On the next For his project. For the next seven weeks. No something serious. Look I've wasted a week already man Have you seen ? Yeah, yeah that's brilliant . Have you seen it? Do a picture, do, do like a series of pictures, yeah, but it's concentrating on the face but like the eyes and just try and capture a different personality from different looks of the eyes. am I advertising something now? Or like promoting something? Erm An illustration for a book maybe. Oh Cassie I've just gotta see if this picks up. No look it's it's, illustrations to books like Dan do an illustration for kids books cos they're really easy. No but he's a graphic designer, he's trying to sell you something. No, yeah that'd be selling the book but Mm. Sell erm Monster Munch. Yeah Monster Munch, do crisps, do a crisps series. No I couldn't, I couldn't it's I've got it marijuana's legalized and you've gotta do an advert campaign. Yeah. Yeah go on, go on. Smoke Afghan! Yeah right. Afghan camel skin. Yeah do That'd be so wicked. Yeah because then you could have that, you could like have a story board for that advert that you thought of. Yeah Dan, yeah you could do you know, we gave one ounce of normal hash and one ounce of super zippo Afghan blue Yeah that'd be so funny. Er like one ounce has gone and we talked to some people who have tried it it was alright but a bit gakky at times right but super zippo Afghan blue is still going strong. and there's this just this row of like rasta men and they're all like by the end and then the other side are still normal. Fucking hell Dan. And do you know those advert features that they do in the States, they're like sort of like half hour adverts, like they're like shows but they're like an advert I've seen one of them. Yeah, what for? Erm some skin cream. Well they did like a talk thing and people were like going yeah I feel the skin cream is really good, they just had a chat Yeah and that's what I put call this number now, all credit cards accepted and that was it and then stop and oh and have you tried the new so and so, buy it now or phone so and so, all credit cards accepted. I always reckon the best adverts are the genius ones. Don't you reckon? Yeah. And then this programme would come on like But now it's sort of, well no it's based very much on American sort of New York Yeah. cos in New York they sort of like they have a chat and the wo they've got some nice looking bird, right, and some sort of normal bloke off the street and they just sort of talk about New York and show lots of pictures of it Mm. But oh no you've gotta do legali er legalized thing. Or you could do a legalized dope poster campaign. Yeah post poster and advert like T V about the story board thing. You could do a legal you could do a l a legalized one. You could have like, sort of show like we gave, like, we gave one ounce of your average and one ounce of Afghan blue two sort of small and then like you show these two kids playing a computer game going whee and then this line goes you see them like from the front going beep beep beep right, this line goes down the middle and all this sort of like the ventilator shaft right there's all this blue smoke starting to pour and then it homes in on one of the men right and it goes sort of whee one hour later whee whee bom bom bom and the other one goes one hour later right and the computer just explodes and it just goes boom Oh look wicked, wicked, wicked I've got a wicked campaign, do a dope campaign yeah, and like the logo is dope may d dope may be dear but you pay through the nose for coke. Where did you nick that from? Ah that's Sounds Yeah. Come here and mash up. Yeah come here and mash up this place there's like this five minutes of him and he just goes what you doing man, come here and mash up this place and then Do you remember that do you remember that erm erm Jamaican party we went to? Oh my God yeah. and like and it was That was so dodgy I know I felt really odd cos it was like I saw him on the street the other day Yeah I saw him around as well. It was so dodgy though cos all the black kids you know and they were going no man you're alright in the corner like being left alone such dirty looks when we walked I know Where was this? and we're all like still got bits of make up on from Rocky Horror Where was this? Oh it was so funny being dragged in the kitchen No he had a really funny name Mm. like Theodorus or something No no no it was like erm Boojoo or something, it wasn't Boojoo but it was something like that. Yeah like Bammy or something. Well that was his nickname wasn't it? Couldn't believe that, we get in the door and he says, goes yeah man Oh yeah we thought he's alright, you know but I got upstairs and it was just a lot of people going That was weird though like couples disappearing in rooms and sort of You want some chicken and the rice come in the kitchen and like that weird sort of red rum gear he had Yeah. like, like rum and red stuff That was nice that was. Yeah, it had that really feel to it like it doesn't feel too alcoholic and then suddenly goes whooooooo Who, who's going to this party tonight? Where is it? Here's mister tape recorder what's going on then? Dan over Dan over come in easy ten four over that's right over you know where the Marmite is? Yeah. Opposite side same shelf. Dan, I was thinking yeah Anybody else want ? Dan, something like this Hon do you wanna paracetamol? Dan Yeah. imagine that but just done in complete black with white lines, yeah, like sort of like if with white lines going down Yeah. picture of just like that yeah but this geezer's like got skiing glasses on and this huge joint and like all these attachments just going like that look like broccoli but like that yeah. the lyrics on it he sort of stops half way through and he goes yeah do this to me and he carries on again. big on lyrics isn't he? He got assassinated for being too you know. He got assassinated? Yeah this geezer who's doing this cos a lot of his songs are like, it's like vocal, like the vocal version to these sort of like stuff about Jamaica throw away your guns and sort of Is it alright to take Milk of Magnesia tablets with paracetamol? What? No that'll be alright. What, what sort of Milk of Magnesia tablets? I dunno. Just stomach calmers, yeah? Yeah. Yeah. Well if, if there was an effect it would be really small. drum beat. That's like it's about fifty beats But the next one sounds exactly like this . There's some drums on this that just sound exactly the same Dan have you got any like cartoons of geezers smoking massive joints ? Dan Dan have you got any smart cartoons of geezers with massive joints ? It looks like Alan Whicker . It does . What have you done to him? That face is so bad, that's like really derogatory Dan Really what? Derogatory, that's such a typical like . No the, the, the, the worst one is That's brilliant that one. All this is gonna be in the teenage on the revenge of the young knuckles this is, this is true this story . Is it? Yeah. It's true as well. What if there's like a book published in a, in about a couple of years time about the children's language mash up this place, listen to this. Oh where is it? Wicked. Who wants to listen to at the Gates of Dawn? a really trebly track that goes nee nee nee na nee nee and it's really bloody annoying. Oh wicked. We're also gonna do Deptford City Hall. Oh what, Brixton nick? Yeah, no no no you go off Deptford High Street it's got this big sign says do not enter flashing lights you go down this alleyway and there's this like tramp just sort of spit in your face going urgh off with you you laddie, right? And then you go in a bit further and you enter the Deptford estate and this is random, you can like go north south east or west but now and again there's some like erm sub-circuits or whatever, sub programming that you'll appear right there's Mermaid Towers right, you appear and you get trapped for seven years listening to this old man The old hermit. stays on it on the game for about twenty minutes and he just sort of talks on and on goes more, more, more. I used to be a carpenter you know. More, more more and then there's this other one right, you get find something neutral Oh shit. Has this thing gone? That's gonna be a good noise. Come on you've gotta talk. What? Is it working? Just about to test it, should work. hello come in three. Wait a minute. Hello. Hello Cassie. Hello, hello. Incoming Bad boy. Yeah that's alright. I think it is anyway. Nothing to talk about now. think it's working. Yeah that's better. It's the one O six This is the one O six bus and it's the most horrible journey ever. In the world. Oh shit! Does it keep on cutting out? Yeah, I dunno why it does actually. Low on batteries. No nothing like that. I think the microphone's just basic basically fucked. Mm yum yum Werther's Original How many more tapes you gotta do? Erm four or five I think. Shit. We'll get some at the party tonight. Oh yeah that'll be well funny . Mine and Aaron's erm mine and Aaron's idea of sticking the erm microphone in the toilet, yeah, right hiding it and then erm later on during the party yeah taking the tape yeah and telling everyone to be quiet and listen to it. That's a wicked idea. You could erm you could, you could stick it in like the bedroom and wait for someone to go in and have a shag Yeah. that'd be funny. I should've left it recording in your bedroom or something. No. God I've eaten so much junk this f food this weekend. Ha? Nothing wrong with eating junk food is there? Well it's not very healthy is it? Ha? anyway. Thin Lizzie just got off the bus. What, all of them ? No just the bloke. Phil ? Yeah Phil that's it. I wonder if they've got Thin Lizzie in Norway? Mm. See that geezer down there? He looks like the one out of erm you know erm Coming to America yeah, the one with the erm sort of shiny greasy hair ? Oh yeah . Yeah that was so funny, you know the bit he has to come up to the house to erm has, has to come up to the house Oh yeah has to come up to the house to talk to him and erm like he sort of opens the door and just shuts it in his face cos he finds out the other bloke's a prince and he's just standing there in the rain. That was so funny that film I swear. It's really weird my mu erm one of my mum's friends who's a bit of goer, she's got herself a new bloke called Jim yeah and he looks exactly like Jimmi Hendrix and he plays the guitar. Wicked . Does he, does he do it on purpose? No, no I mean he just looks like Jimmi Hendrix he's not like a just a bloke really looks like him. Can you share it with Honey? Yeah. Hey don't ask for any more right greedy bastards, I dunno. It was so funny when we recording in Dan, do you remember when we were recording at Aaron's getting up? I've gotta listen to erm all that stuff erm when Aaron and Alex were wearing strange attire . What's that woman supposed to be looking like? She looks like bloody weird seventies pair of flares, that's what I say. Yeah. Bloody thing keeps on fucking cutting out. You should really, you should find Jim tonight and record yourself Oh is he coming? Think so yeah but he was ill though yesterday. Dan, did you hear what I said? Pardon. I said Phil . Did you hear what I said? Yeah. Mm?yeah? Don't you reckon? Oh God, can you imagine sitting there and actually just washing people's windows and trying to get some money, it must be so depressing. Yeah I know. It's so annoying when they just come up to your window whether you want it cleaned or not they just clean it. I know. I mean if they ever do that to me I'm just gonna fucking drive off. my driving instructor always just goes blah and then Yeah I know. Well I think what I'll do yeah is like when they're trying to clean my window I'll open the gu and shoot er open the window yeah and I'll get out a gun and shoot them. No no well you, well actually that's a good one, if you, they start washing the window, yeah and turn the wipers on and whoosh So there's splatters all over them, oh fuck bloody cutting out. That bloody museum's so crap. Oh it is isn't it? It's really boring. It never changes its scenery or anything. Oh there was this interview with Mick Jagger yeah but like it must have been written about cos they described him as a neanderthal rocker. It's not true. Dan's got a new penis. Coke can vibes Coke can vibes. Coke can vibes. Wicked! cut out. No don't just say it from there. It's all lies I tell you. It never used to cut out, I think there's something wrong with it. Coke can vibes . Did you record that Cassie? Yeah. With the Coke can vibes? Yeah. Wicked. Oh wow Thin Lizzie were so cool. They were weren't they? Dan used to hate them. Yeah I did, I used to really hate them. Why? I always liked the Boys are Back in Town Yeah. I like Jail It's good no I tell you why I thought they were crap cos you gave me an album and it had the had Dancing in the Moonlight and that was good but all the other songs on it were really shit. What was that, erm Bad Reputation? Yeah. Or something. It's, it's rubbish. Mm. Alive and Dangerous is the best one. God I hate this bus journey, it's so boring. Oops Sniffing some coke They're go gonna get this tape right and they're just gonna think what the fuck! None of the other people are probably gonna have stuff like this on their tape. No. Pete, Peter's one's gonna be like all intellectual people Peter ? Yeah. And I'm sorry but to call Peter even vaguely intellectual just doesn't work at all. No like and also there's Anthony the biggest ragger in our year. What? Anthony the biggest ragger in our year and there's Grace Oh yeah I know. who's the erm prettiest female biggest ragger in our year. Tell Grace to change That'd be quite good. Sorry about stopping the tape but it keeps on cutting out cos your microphone is absolutely shit. Pardon? I was just saying erm sorry about keep on stopping the tape but your microphone is absolutely shit Oh yeah. and it keeps on cutting out, that's why I'm stopping it by the way. Oh God one more person asking me what this thing's for, yeah, tonight I'm gonna fucking go mad. Ha? What's this thing for? Do you wanna slap Dan? No. Ooh! That college is so shit, what did you just call it, Whackney college? It was so shit Dan what did you just call it? Whackney college? Acne college. Acne college It's such a fucking shit hole. It's not as bad as I think, I think the funniest thing was erm is that that Hackney Housing Office down here looks just like a squat is that the housing office for Hackney Oh yeah where is it? is just miles Yeah I think I've seen that before and er all that stuff the big boy nut Yeah . went all along the one O six bus route. I know. Really really weird. Do you know what that means? It's like someone just got off at every single stop and wrote on it. Have you ever seen the erm tag idea written all over the place? No. Oh well if you have what? Cos I know the person who wrote idea. Who was it? Some geezer called Danny. What? going round using their tags and reckoning they're . Remember when Jonathan used to do that? Did he? I can't, I dunno I never used to know Jonathan . Oh right. Did you know Tamsin used to go out with Jonathan ? Did she? Yeah, yeah erm he goes out with loads of quite, quite sexy women, I don't understand it myself Well you know he used to be quite good looking when he was younger but now he's really ugly. No he's alright looking but he's just boring. Yeah I know. He rings you up and goes he goes hello it's Jonathan and you go oh right hello Jonathan and he doesn't say anything so you talk to him for about half an hour or so and then you go alright Jonathan, better go, you know and then he goes no no I've got something to tell you and you go oh alright what is it then and he goes I can't remember it man, just talk to me for a bit longer and I'll remember it then and it goes on like that for hours and hours and it's so boring. Oh God. Does he ring you up? Off and on. No he used to but He was so wicked what? they used to be alright didn't they? said they did. Eh? used to be the biggest arsehole. Oh he is, Oh I wanna see Full Metal Jacket. and it's got as well and it's got all these like You're not getting no more. No, no more for you. The end bit, the end bit I'll probably go out during that What's that? it's really really What is? I haven't seen that. It's like you know when you, you Did you think Henry was quite good? In a nasty Really really nasty though. I love making stupid noises on this. Ah that, Dan that This bus takes the stupidest route, it's I know darling. If it just went in a straight line it would take fifteen minutes. I know. But what kind of advert is that, come here and go away? I mean I know what it means but like Are you lot going to Italy this year? Who with? should take about ten minutes Yeah. and it takes about five fucking hours, it's ridiculous. Like that, but the other thing, and the other thing about this bus ride is it's so horrible isn't it? It's just like look, everything that you look at yeah, really Yeah. Who is I'm gonna kill that bastard. Yeah, you know the bastard who draws those really crap pictures on bloody kebab shops? When? And they're always the same. Oh yeah. What like those er Dan. Dan Dan Dan look at that picture on there, Dan! Look there's a picture that you can put up Somebody had written erm yes I am a lesbian and You can Remember when that bus bloody stopped there and we had to walk, me you and Zed? Oh God yeah. Then me, yeah me and Zed were saying like because, and like we'd been tripping the night before and everything Yeah! it was horrible. All the way from Cla all the way from before Clapton Yeah and bus stopped and I said it was going to cos we And like we were coming down and I'm gonna fall across the seat. Talk to me. Talk to you. What? It was so funny when you stubbed a fag out on his arse. Do you remember that when Alex stubbed that fag out on his arse? That was so funny like I know. I don't understand what he was doing with his I mean that must hurt so much. I can do that but I can't take it out of the socket. It's really nasty. That is just wicked, using his arse as an ashtray, that was just a classic that was. We should've had a picture of that. Is that it? Is that the squat? No that doesn't look like a squat. Have we passed it Dan? Oh yeah We need to have some talking on this. shit it's half past four What? it's half past four. Oh shit. Time flies when you're smoking dope . I wasn't actually that stoned were you? No. I wasn't stoned. Well it wasn't it wasn't that good stuff actually, it was quite poor. pretty good. That was that we had last weekend. Was it? Yeah. What is it going on about liquid gold and gold ? I mean is that man a spastic or what? No he's not a spastic but like he does talk some serious shit. I know. I think he's alright. Why what's wrong with him? Yeah. Think it was for his birthday, yeah, or Christmas, right, she gave an intravenous drip filled with speed solution so he doesn't need to bother For his birthday and Christmas rehabilitation centre. Pay for him to go to rehab. Yeah. No he'd love that though cos he could come round and go shit I've just come out of rehab and everyone would go oh wow man you must be really drugged out. Yeah. Oh God I hate this bloody bus journey. Cos I think he's sort of realized now that nobody's particularly impressed by him taking six grammes and twelve Es at once and going oh I took six grammes of and twelve Es at once and I was really fucked. Yeah I know. So he, he needs something new to do. What do you think he'll do next? Go round and start murdering people ? Yeah I should think so. Come round and say oh I murdered twelve people today and then we'll all go oh wow Zed! We should get off and interview Anna. Oh yes. Where's she live? Just down there. What did it sound like to you? Mm? Did it come from outside or in here? Bad boy reaching Clapton ponds. bus stop. That's right. Anna lives just down the road. Anna she's cool. Her nose is a funny shape. And she giggles a lot. Ha? She giggles a lot? She's not as cool as she used to be, you know. S she's started hanging out with fucking Max and all the bloody teeny wankers. Yeah. God there was this spasticated kid in my school, you know Lucy ? Yeah. Yeah I was talking to her and she's got this ma he's not a spastic he's just got such bad taste in music and he just plays it like it's sort of like What's he like? Erm he, he likes he likes sort of erm Nirvana and Frank and Walters and all these really Who's this? crap bands and I'm going but they're so untalented, sort it out and he's going What's he saying? he's just saying no but they're really good and I'm going but they're not, they're rubbish. I suppose Nirvana are the best of a bad lot by a long way. Then why is it Nirvana never played yeah I suppose you, I see what you mean yeah. At least they bloody started it and they just didn't fucking jump on the bandwagon like everybody else. Yeah I know. Oh well they did actually cos they ripped off erm what was that band before, I can't remember, Pavement they were before Nirvana. Who? Pavement. They were what? They were before Nirvana, they came from Seattle, they sound almost exactly the same. Nirvana are just a rip off of them really. Except Nirvana are better. Nirvana are crap though. I know they are. Gotta listen to a little bit of Like Thin Lizzie. Yeah! Do you like the Black ? Yeah they're wicked. Yeah they're okay. Have you got any of their tapes? Have you got Hot to Handle on your tape? Erm well I've got, I've got the album with Broker Deal on it and erm I've got another tape out which had Hot to Handle on it see I recorded the album What? I recorded the album I got you which didn't have on it yeah? And then I got another compilation tape with Can I tape it off you? Yeah no the Black are good but they do sound like the Stones. The Stones? Yeah. Except with the guitar so much. How old are they? I think sound like the Stones. Yeah Good though. They do. I don't think they do at all. They do. Some of their songs do. And then he really looks like Mick Jagger as well which don't help. Don't you reckon that erm the are a bit of a copy of er Spinal Tap? are a copy of Spinal Tap ? Well they, they all look the same. They, they they the people look the same as They don't. They do, that geezer with erm moustache and hair. He looks a bit like Derek Smalls I know but Did, did you know that erm Spinal Tap was a film before the band came out? Yes. Yeah cos I never used to know that But you, you till I saw you seriously thought they were a real band? Yeah well they were kind of after erm the erm thing. They weren't really they were just like Do you think they're good? No they're music's terrible, they're quite funny though. They, they've got one good, really good riff on erm er Tonight I'm Gonna Rock You er der der der der der der der der der der der Yeah I know I like that. But I mean then, then again they don't do it very well. Don't they? If they left it in the hands of it would be a much better song. Yeah. Cos they, they don't play with that much conviction, well I mean suppose they're not really musicians but sound a bit crap. Bad News are much better. Yeah. The music of Bad News cos what? helped Bad News write most of the songs. Oh right yeah. So that one about erm go insane and eat my brain baby I haven't heard that. Oh that's brilliant that one is. And like what was that really good one? There was Old Warriors of Genghis Khan Yeah. that was a brilliant oh yeah I have seen Bad News but I, I don't remember it very well, I remember bits of it. Bad news der der der der der bad news Yeah. Well erm have you heard that, that song Warriors of Genghis Khan? What the nasty one? What's that? Just The nasty one with the stupid video? Yeah . Yeah. Yeah but they're just, they they're just, they're they don't do they? They're just being really your average thick metal band. I wonder what, oi Dan Honey, I wonder what, I wonder what we'll be like when we get into our sort of mid twenties? Probably pretty similar to what we are now I should imagine. Do you reckon we'll still know each other? Yeah. Yeah I reckon. Basically if the band stays together then we'll just still know the same people because Yeah. We've gotta keep it together Oh we will, we're gonna keep together till we're very wealthy. Hopefully. No well we'll, look we're getting quite, we're getting quite a lot of erm attention. I don't mean like sort of you wish like you wish that you like you'll become rich or something. I do wish that Yeah. four thousand seven four er forty seven yeah erm a grand total of forty seven thousand three hundred pounds. What's that? How much you've got? I worked it out the other day, I've got fifty eight P. Oh almost home. Yeah nearly there. Oi Dan I've gotta, I've gotta play you, I've gotta play you later on of me apologizing to the Norwegians. Oh why? Oh what did you say? There's just this, it's just really funny cos I sound really wrecked yeah and I say look hello, hello look Norwegian people I just want to apologize for all this mess and all this crap on this tape but I mean yeah like you know, fuck it it's a laugh innit? And then, and then Stitch sort of takes over and there's people and then there's a bit yeah er someone said to Aaron you've got a bony arse and I'm standing behind you and I'm going yes Aaron you have a bony arse . Oh I said to Aaron that he had a bony arse, he does as well. Mm. Well don't you think embarrassing? No? Oh I can't remember. Coming down, slowing into High Street passing Stoke Newington Church Street and the Samuel Beckett where they're really crap and like don't pay you properly oh no Don't they? no they do at the Samuel Beckett, it's the and okay, it's a good new Embassy advert but I still don't smoke Embassy because they're horrible. And Sing it like, like glow in the dark Embassy or something innit? I like Embassy filter actually, you know the really small cigarettes, they're quite cute. I wouldn't compromise with towels would you? Don't you think those adverts for erm the Vauxhall Corsa are really pointless? All those ones with the supermodels sitting on cars? The er the T V advert's quite good, it's quite stylish but Yeah. I'm sorry but does anyone actually use Stoke Newington train station? I don't think so . Only the people that work there. But what I don't understand is though why we haven't got an underground station at Stoke Newington and why Stoke Newington train station isn't linked up to Whitechapel. It isn't linked up to anything, it goes nowhere. I think there's just one bit of line going from there like I, I think it goes to Canonbury and think it goes to Bethnal Green. Great! Actually does it go to Bethnal Green? Cos if you got the train to Bethnal Green you could walk it from there to Whitechapel. Well I'd rather not actually it's much better getting the one O six. There is an underground at Bethnal Green isn't there? Coming up to my house pretty soon but I'm not going there cos it's shit. I hope one of you We were gonna move into a house just down here when we erm one of these ones, like a flat one of those A flat? a flat in one of those. Oh my God! What? You and who? No, no erm my family when I was really small but the, the flat was too titchy. Yeah I know they are. I hope Zed and Bonnie come to this party tonight. Dunno What? I dunno if Bonnie will, she doesn't go anywhere she's just so boring. No she said she wanted to go to a party this weekend. Oh right well And if not Oh shit! Oh home ground What? is just I don't care what anybody says. Have you got any orange juice Dan? By the gallon. Have you? Yeah we've got loads left over from the funeral. Still, I can't believe you've still got that No It's weird. I'll have to make some phone calls when I get back to your house. Oh I see. Okay? waste my phone bill. Oh do shut up. No can I use your phone? Ha? Oh don't be so sarcastic. sarcastic, my brain isn't working at the moment. My brain isn't Come on then. manage anything as advanced as sarcasm. Oh God you don't know how much my legs hurt. It's bloody cut out again. We're now getting off the bus. Shit! We're very nearly home. I've got to pretend to be a reporter Dan. Right, out on the streets again. That bastard on that bus, when I got off I heard this voice saying and I looked round and there's this ragger sitting there I think he was about fifteen. Oh you should've slapped him. What's true? It's true though yeah, I think They're so bloody thick, they're always saying that we dress like tramps yeah then why do they wear clothes with holes in them? No man but they're so fucked. No raggers are fucking crap. Yeah they are like and like they just don't grow up until the time I know. I know I've never seen a grown up ragger actually, they always go no man look at the chief on that Look at the chief. They just say, just say the chief. And like What is, what does chief mean? All the people in my school use it. And like I don't bloody It was quite funny cos I, I was walking down the road with my, my mate Robbie yeah and he's gay and, and they went ooh No but what does chief mean? and they went boy and What do I'm sorry but what does chief man? Dunno it just sort of means It's such a so stupid. I mean that's like, that's like saying no man you're such an umpire or something. No man you're such a Red Indian. No man We're now entering Dan 's house, this is where band practice was yesterday. Much respect, kicking respect kicking respect kicking respect. Dan's way of saying hello I'm home. Oh I'm starving. Kicking respect. Oh my limbs hurt so much. Oh I hurt so much. I hurt. I hurt. Go on then , hang on wait come on. I think she's upstairs Oh I'm gonna go and see her okay, have a conversation the thing's on. Is it? Oh yum yum soft marrow can I eat some soup? Erm yeah Do you want some tea then? Yeah. What is potato and leek like? Hello Norwegian people this is my fiance Honey I love her very much. Ah! What is potato and leek like? I do, it's true. Mm This is Honey , Dan 's fiancee, this man has the biggest knob you will ever see in your life and it's all mine What were you saying? About, I thought you said something about tea? I said what's potato and leek soup like? Usually it tastes quite potatoey and presumably rather leeky as well I should imagine. Hee hee hee yeah? I thought that was, that was a really good line in that cook thief his wife their lover film where he went, he said something about she's great except she will keep popping to the John and then he went she's got a bladder like a leaky marrow Did he? Yeah that was wicked . I'd be bloody embarrassed if I had a husband that looked like that I'd throw him away. No man there is no way. Hummus food of the gods. Pardon? is that? What's that horrible smell? It smells like Aaron's feet. Oh God I've never smelt, I didn't wanna say anything but like I've smelt anything so nasty in my life except for Patrick's knob. Seriously those feet were nasty. Patrick's such a spastic. Patrick could You haven't slept head to toe in a bed with him though. Aaron. No not Aaron. Imagine that. No I, I, I sort of smelt Patrick's feet once and I thought if it was possible to faint on smells then I was going to, you know. I swear to God they're the most nasty things sort of like Aaron's Dan sweats nicotine. Does he? Yeah. He says his sweat smells of Benson. Urgh! Disgusting. You are here, still going out? No You're not now, oh right okay that's fine, the er, what I want you to do instead of writing, I mean two hundred words is, is probably feel nothing, but in fact because we want er it to be absolutely right, what I'd like you to do this time is just write an appraisal, the contents thing er that we had last time we had if you like, content and appraisal and audience, but audience was only er, a sentence or two, I'd simply like a, an appraisal, what your view of this is, if you're writing that part of the review, so we're only thinking in terms of a hundred words now, er what I'd like you to do is to distribute yourselves over the laboratory, erm go wherever you want but don't start talking with people, it's not the, not the Cribben thing I just want to get on with the exercise that I'm concerned with and write your appraisal, but obviously put your name on it and er if we meet back here thirty five minutes is that long enough for under a hundred words of excellent quality? Between er, er the best, the best end of the scale ones which I would of thought if they'd been submitted to something like a general were almost erm okay just like that, I mean there were one or two very good ones, I think there was one that was just about like that with the odd word and when an editor receives something like you, you know, it's usually going to be something he wants to change very slightly, erm that, those were the best ones, there were in general however you haven't yet got used to the idea of editing. I, when I took them back and looked at them, there were lots and lots of, of re er, errors if you like that if you had really looked at them you could of picked out yourself. I mean if you're honest a lot of these were really first or second draft erm manuscripts I think and er er you really got to get, if you're going to submit something like this it has to be er it has to be absolutely watertight and you have to say exactly what it is that you want to say, erm some of the criticism I've, I'm not gonna mention people's names, but I'm just remind myself er, a whole lot of you for some reason erm,con construct things in sort of note form I suppose this being undergraduates that helps this and, and, but you construct things with single sentence paragraphs so that actually you get a whole list of sentences without any linking between them and that is terribly disjointed reading and with an account like that, when you've finished reading it, you sort of have to shake your head and think well what did the person actually say, and when it's actually looking for er a little bit of prose, the in addition some of your con your sentences are in, extraordinarily complex, you start off in a sentence and you actually lose your way in the middle of it, I mean the simple sentence's much the better thing, I mean I seem to remember being told by subject, object verb, in a sentence, they must have those, those, those things, well very often you'll have a sentence which starts with er a particular noun and as, as a subject and then finishes up with the same no noun or, or, or subject or, or maybe it's become the object of the sentence at the very end or maybe the sentence has totally lost it's way. And these are the kind of things really that you should be able to pick out because they just, if you like, they just sound wrong forgetting about how poor our knowledge of grammar may become over, over the years. Er use of slang erm often comes into these, er these things, the, the sort of well footage er referring to the video isn't such a bad one because it's, it's in quite common use, but an awful lot of slang words, erm that people introduce er maybe I'll come across some in a moment. Erm, thank goodness for er modern technology I got them please don't, don't all fax them up to the department, er these faxes are very hard to read Some of the sentences there are extremely long, some of you use capital letters indiscriminately, every sort of fourth word, they're in capitals, I don't understand why that should be. One or two of the excellent ones was spent, was spoiled by a little bit of er need to erm edit very carefully introdu introduction of concepts you must be careful not to, if you've got a couple of hundred words only, but don't introduce er concepts diversity of design must of been er a phrase picked up from the video itself because it appeared in two or three of them, but it's no use talking about diversity and divine is it,de design as if , as if it's a concept which everybody else is going to understand. The teacher that reads your review that wants to know shall I buy that review,hi hire that video rather or, or what, am I going to use it for my class, they are going to er want that information and they don't want er concepts introduced which they don't understand what is meant by it, so be careful in that er erm, we have species of bird, the brambling, which I, I think is a pub in Rare bird this is very swift, some of us when er I put on, on large number of them more editing is needed I, I think probably now going back, oh change of tenses obviously something you have to watch out for. Anyway since editing is the main problem, what we're going to do this afternoon is, actually, I'm going to show you another video and again it's a very controversial one, again it's used in, in teaching situations, again it has a biased point of view in the sense that it's produced by National Power, er clearly as a P R job for introduction into schools erm and I want you to do the same exercise, but this time I want us to edit them among ourselves and what I'm going to do is to get you to wri write your reviews and then we'll divide into small groups, while you're watching it I'll co I'll count how, however many people we've got here, we'll copy the reviews and in the same groups I want you to edit one another 's reviews and then er discuss them within the groups once you've, once you've marked them so we'll get into the small, we'll do the review we'll write the review and then we will er, I distribute the, you can go and have a cup of coffee while we copy them, then we'll distribute them, you can mark them, er individually on your own and then we'll get into a group and you can criticize one another 's reviews, we'll take them one at a time, we'll probably be in groups of four, okay, but I'll see, I'll see how many, what the most suitable number is, okay so, if you, would you be kind enough to that It's the brambling The brambling rambling is the word ramble Well if you'd put the sound quality was poor, I thought it better than rambling when it was, when it should of said brambling. Rambling isn't that what old fogeys did in the weekend? Yeah It didn't work very well did it Stuart? What's that? That, didn't come out. The faxing? Er? The faxing? No, it didn't work that well No, and er, I mean I can do, I could read it so er but I did It's a bit poor. It's a bit blurred, yeah Sorry you were given What, what are you carry on doing today? I mean do you want us to hand another one in? No, well you founded the, the projects, but apart from anything which are Right, right, right. Yeah, I realized that er, my handwriting may not be desirable, but er, pardon Okay, are, are you ready then with whatever notes you want to take? What's, what's the video called? Okay the video's called Electric Ecology it was actually produced by er the Cen er Central Electricity Generating Board which doesn't actually now exist it's become the National Power and Nuclear Electric hasn't it? Erm and what it says on the blurb on the cover is that the power stations of England and Wales are surrounded by larg large areas of land which are often remote, uncultivated and undisturbed by man. Electric Ecology looks at the surprising variety of plants and animals that have co colonized this land and that the efforts that are made to monitor and foster this wild life. The running time is twenty six minutes, we might as well get that right, we had er, er several people commenting on the running time of the other video, but er people had different of estimates, anything from fifteen to twenty five minutes. Sorry you No I was about to ask how long it was. Yeah, er right Power stations produce electricity for our homes and industry, they're surrounded by thousands of acres of wild land This wild land has developed into some of the nation's most remarkable nature reserves For seven days a week, twenty four hour a day routine at the power station can provide unique and also surprising cover for all kinds of wild life. Power station fitter Bill They're, they're built in remote places so you've got all the, the er wild life around them and then you've got er farmland which uses pesticide and stuff like, which kills off the insect life and to birds all young and stuff like that. Erm, by having know that the land grows the weeds and no pesticides not disturbed, there's no shooting, they're never shot around here, the birds can come in sheltered, you know, they, they're just like a little nature reserve, protected area, game park you know, nothing shot at just left and er they like it obviously, I mean it's like anything once it learns that er it's gonna be left alone it comes again and again. It's, it's living in harmony I suppose will be the word you know the, the environment sort of moves in to the power station and doesn't get attacked, everywhere else gets attacked you know, people scrub up the weeds in the garden and things like that, here they're allowed to grow, the butterflies come in, insects, great you know just, just love it. And Bill loves the wildlife, he's a dedicated bird- watcher although he hardly looks like it when servicing the huge polarizers that turn coal into a fine powder for burning. This powderized coal is the fuel for the power station. Like great coffee beans these machines must wind fifteen thousand tons of coal each day. Seventy five per cent of Britain's electricity is generated by coal fired power stations Not for much longer. Ash is produced when the coal is burnt and has proved to be something for the salvation for many plants and animals the ash is so fine that it has to be turned into a slurry and put into the to settle out these can be up to eight years during which time it becomes none the less but an artificial mud flat quickly colonized by weeds, pioneers crucial to the complex way of life in our natural world But for bird-watchers it is the bird that attracted to these artificial mud flats that are the most exciting development within the boundaries of these power station nature reserves. It'll soon be better for the power station management Bill has built a hide to monitor the bird population The reason we built it on this particular spot is this is the ash flurry from the boilers from the bottom there of the er power station and er it's contents of slurry dried out, dried out and graded, well once nice and flat like this it gives the bird an ideal opportunity to at high tide and they can see around, there's no vegetation, it's very bad ground, and er, that is load of ducks, a good numbers of er oystercatchers, they don't sometimes, which is really nice and so easy to count them now cos when the tide is out and you've got the, the mud flats of course they're spread out, now they're nicely condensed down here, so it's great, great little position for us you know, that's all courtesy of the bottom of the boiler, you know, you know, give us this nice Hardly the oystercatcher isn't all that fussy about its nesting site. This one has found a cosy hole in an insulation, covering a disused pipe to an oil fired power centre. Such oddities can often been spotted, because to the birds and animals a power station is simply a secluded often borne refuge from a hostile world When, one, one of the changes I'm trying to do at night is, is to make the nature reserve more attractive to all species. If I, if I get another species next year nesting, that hasn't nested before and I know it's because of the effort of putting in reeds, trees, whatever I've put in there, we're, we're trying to get to nest here, if they nest that'll be really, er that'll be a great thing because er they feed on the apple erm I thought somebody said er who said there was a hundred a seventy five here er a week ago and that'd be great to get them to nest, be really good. As the ash dries hard it is dug out for sale for the construction industry, yet another habitat is created With the layers of rock compacted over millions of years, this soft ash forms perfect artificial gifts for burrowing animals like rabbits For this young fox, what better place to practise digging than a soft cliff of ash, watched nervously by potential lunch Another predator not necessarily fond of the ash, but very keen on the animals that it attracts, is the polecat ferret Once used by poachers many of these agile hunters are now wild and range freely over the rough ground near power stations in search of prey Round at the top of the ash are the nest borrows of one of Britain's rarest bird, the sand martin the monitor of this power station has ensured special in there so the birds can find ideal nest sites. He's even arranged for holes to be drilled into the ash to give the sand martins a head start These days secured nest sites for these beautiful birds are increasingly rare. This artificial ash cliff is perhaps one of their last strongholds have also found refuge around our fire stations, protected from tramping feet and sheltered from chemical sprays these rare plants thrive in the damp salty margins alongside the ash lagoons all this within the boundaries with just a few of the country's coal fired power stations but the need for sea walls of other coastal stations merely intake pipes to the coaling system, another world teams this is not a plant, fan worms have flowerlike mouth parts used to filter food from the sea water other worms use just two sticky tentacles to catch food shrimps forage over closely packed sea the delicate bodies of these printed vertebrates work as tiny water pumps, pulling water in one hole and pumping it through the other here two barnacles feed in the gentle flow of water over the cooling pipes from the station Marine life quickly packs the underwater structures and is about to become too thick and sometimes affect the performance of the machinery barnacles belong to the same family as crabs and lobsters, but being in their adult life standing on their head which is fixed to the concrete they use their feet to filter the water and kick food into their mouths but if they can't move, how do they get there so quickly in the first place? The answer is that after mating they produce a tiny mobile larvae totally different to the adult this might drift for miles on ocean current before settling into the fixed adult form Down Norwick power station in North Wales, generates the electricity by pump storage, in off peak hours thousands of gallons of water are pumped from a lower lake to an upper lake, when the demand for electricity is high bowels are opened and water falls back through turbine to the lower lake again, this generates the power To ensure that the lower lake would never flood the was diverted through mile long tunnel in the mountain side, no one knew for certain how the salmon, the trout and even rarer that used to migrate up the old river would cope with the tunnels, pitch darkness and slow flowing water. To find out a new research programme was started, fresh water biologist Doctor Alistair . A lot of people, some, some people well you should of and and er many other people say that this wouldn't go through, particularly them the going through the tunnel. The research team have travelled two kilometres into the tunnel to net the fish close to the intake checking the catch is an exciting moment Oh there's a char, there's a lovely char here, these lovely chars er actually spend most of the time in big cold lakes and they're a, they're a population in they normally respond in December from about December the second to the fifteenth and they've probably been isolated since fourteen thousand years ago, with that every population has gone slightly different to, to the next one. Later the catches are surveyed in detail Well here, here are char for example, this is a female, you see the, the white line on the fins and the very pale pink spots, this will actually get gradually more highly coloured until about December when they will be quite bright red, and, and in my opinion not a question really, but might be that some of these other ones are pretty nice as well here's quite a, quite a dark little trout, probably been in the light for quite a long time, right now nevertheless that's a female as well just a couple more famous small ones here, that's a young salmon, that's really a beauty. These little thumb print things along the, along the sides are called the marks and the down to the sea those marks disappear and you get this silvery appearance, so it's very plain if you've got these that the salmon has been up there just in the upper which is exactly we had, hope we had happened Female shark and then thirty As part of Doctor 's research the char is painlessly tagged before being released back into the lake. When in the future later recaptured the tab will help scientists piece together the life history of these ice age relics Doctor is to find out whether the migrating salmon are actually producing young in the upper reaches of the river Nantpose. To do this Doctor and his team use specially made apparatus that momentarily stuns the young fish the research programme is continuing, but the results so far are revealing just how well the salmon co-exist with the high tech world of electricity production There's some that are going up at the moment to this pond, they develop them for the next three years to spend their life in the fresh water feeding, and what we're trying to do here is to see just how many there are in, in the river er as a total. Well what we do is we patch up all we can't a hundred yard stretch. We then mark them and release them again because we, the electro thing doesn't harm them in any way This deluge of warm water produced by the cooling towers of the power station is as close as we'd come in Britain to a tropical monsoon. It's a vital part of the process of generating electricity. The water is nearly gone from a local river and of course is filtered before it passes through the tower, fish as fry or eggs inevitably get through, craving in the warm oxygen rich pond under the tower. On the rare occasions when the cooling towers are for maintenance, the staff wait eagerly to see what the pond reveals. Today the catch includes chub and fish associated with clear oxygen rich water now moving towards the maintenance. Eventually a time of fish will be landed so the intricate work of life moves itself into the most unlikely corners of our power stations. But when the time comes to close, this delicate balance between gleaming efficient machinery and the secret world of nature can relent the man made, now nature takes over, unfettered by schedules or the relentless hurry into the night shift, it creeps into the bare workings of the place and then it's not the rest of the world within a world. Now echoes of the great turbines has faded and new a workforce starts to earn its living. soon find their way into the building and settle down to rear their young within the of pipes . The droppings they create will need to contact flies which in turn will be to the spiders whose garden of webs will soon bale the windows . The flat roof becomes like any piece of bad a potential home for pioneering weeds and grasses. More weed and a seed quickly becomes established in cracks on the asphalt In future years even willow trees will be in a foothold to these doomed power stations stands firm and proud as it slips and silently into decay That's them go in there. But the circular life is the start of natural history As the years turn towards migrating birds will give a clue to the success of the fledglings hatched earlier in the year. This nest set up on the flat lands beyond the power stations on the south east coast will provide the evidence to Bill and his bird watching colleagues It's not only the owls that fly at night, waders will feed at any time, but the rising tide will force them to leave the mud flats day or night Bird in the bag, a hundred and nine take her out right ring plummer, time? Time now, time is Ten, ten past two, what is it two at ten? Ring number Er, O five Yeah, it's been there for quite a while. His job is so delicate that to ring birds like this Bill has had to train for two years under the watchful eye of a certified ringer. Well er a possibility innit? Oh yeah Quite possible a wedding ring for the bird A hundred and thirty. This is quite a nice bird Yeah and er a nice white belly on it, on the wing, we'll put him back into the marsh shall we? With that we'll see if we've got any more it's er, have to go down here which has got a bit of light, still some birds moving around and the birds calling, go and check the nests now. We're gonna let this one go down the slide, until it runs off, there he goes , the light's gone It was only now that appreciate what nature has known all along. The plants, birds and animals, here in solitude and stable environmental conditions to fly. do not care whether the pipes,in our power stations help generate power to support human civilization. As far as they're concerned these places are a home, safe and free of danger. Okay, well now, what I would like you to do please er because we've only got a limited amount of time, er incidentally some of you still haven't divide collecting er a small group going with Peter I We are still going. This is the second talk in a series following the history, sort of Victorian fashion, but not just what people wore but hopefully explaining why they wore it, both the actual manufacturing, physical why they wore it and perhaps some of the psychological reasons behind the changing fashion. erm You missed last week's talk, which actually was quite lucky because the projector broke down, so it wasn't a great success; but last week, erm I talked about the beginning up to the eighteen thirties, Victorian costume, and really what I was trying to put across last time, was the fact that the nineteenth century saw the beginning of fashion for the masses. Instead of fashion being mainly, well almost totally an upper class preoccupation, it became, because of the ease of manufacture and because more clothes were more readily available and cheaper, it became one, something that was worn by the middle classes, gradually sort of percolated downwards. With the invention of things like the spinning wheel, spinning jenny, the spinning mule, erm mechanized weaving, the Jacquard loom which wove patterns, all these helped the manufacture of cotton, the manufacture, the manu, the spinning and weaving of cloth. erm We saw the beginning of the factory, industrialization, big manufacturers where lots of people worked and where cloth could be churned out at a very fast rate, and therefore, cloth was cheaper. From America, the development of the slave plantations, cotton plantations, meant that far more cotton was being sent over to England, so as well as wool, you also have the choice of cotton garments, which were much more popular because of course, they washed very easily. And as long as you didn't choose something that had a very bad dye, in which case it would all run, but mostly it was very light, it was easy to wear, even easy to clean, so it was an immensely popular fabric. The eighteen twenties and thirties saw fashion moving from the Empire line, which was, had a very small bodice and a skirt that flowed down straight to the ground to a lower waisted dress with big sleeves and a shorter skirt, and the impression of a little girl, a little sort of bouncy girl who was all skippy and everything, which reflected really the feeling of optimism at the beginning of the nineteenth century. The growth of the middle classes as industrialization became, got under way, men, more men earned their money, so instead of having two classes, the working class and the upper class who spent their lives in leisure, in idleness, you got another class of people who had to earn their living, but who still made a lot of money. And the reason for a, a lot of fashion and a lot of change in the fashions, one of the reasons is because these men had, needed some way of showing off their wealth. Previously, in the eighteenth and seventeenth centuries, a man himself could dress and show how wealthy he was, and when man started going to work he had to wear a respectable, responsible suit; he had to put across the image of honesty, of, you know, I'm, I'm a respectable man, I'm decent, I'm down to earth. So really man's costume changed very little, and in fact, apart of the cut of the jacket, and the type of hat you wore, it carried on right up to the present day. So the man needed a way of showing how wealthy he was, and he did that by having a large house, by having lots of servants, and also by dressing his wife, I mean by having a wife who didn't have to work, who could stay at home, and wore clothes to show this, so you get the beginning of incredibly impractical clothes which showed that the woman obviously didn't do any work, because it was completely impossible to do any. Now the eighteen-forties sees the development of manufacturing process, clothes are getting easier and easier to make, cheaper and cheaper, so fashion is changing faster because people can afford to, whereas in earlier times, if you wore a woollen dress, it had been you know, you know, somebody had done the sheep for you, had spun the wool and woven the wool and you were damned if you were going to take this dress off until it fell to pieces round you. Now that clothes were, had become cheaper, people could afford to change them more often and buy new ones, so the fashion changes became more rapid. And another way of showing how wealthy you were was to keep up with the fashion ‘look, I can afford to wear this year's dress, I'm not wearing last year's or the year before's’. I'll start the slides. Is this in your way? erm No, it's not,, I can manage to squash round. I'm just trying to focus it actually,. Right, that's as good as it gets I'm afraid. This is a very out of focus picture of a drapers' shop. And the picture is actually to show you how people bought their cloth, how people bought their dresses. Until well into the eighteen forties, they didn't actually buy dresses, they bought lengths of cloth and had them made up, either by a member of the household — a servant perhaps, or more often by a dressmaker, either a couturier or the local dressmaker. So they would actually do the shopping for the material, and then they would go away and look at pattern books and decide what sort of patterns they wanted, what sort of dress it was that they wanted to make. By the eighteen forties, you just had the beginning of home dressmaking. Now I think this came around, about, because you get the, the people, the women who want to wear fashionable clothes, it's getting broader and broader and we're sort of expanding downwards as it were, so you get women who have enough money to buy the material, to buy patterns, who have the skill to make dresses, but haven't the money to actually get a dressmaker to do it for them. So it becomes very much more common with, among sort of lower middle classes, the people who are working their way out of the working classes. Also in the eighteen-forties, you actually get the beginning of department stores. Previously, if you wanted a dress for example, you'd buy your cloth at the drapers, you'd buy your bits and pieces at the haberdashers, erm you'd go to the milliners and the glovers and all those different sorts of shops. In the eighteen-forties, the department stores really came into being with places like Debenham and Freebodys and Selfridges, where everything could be purchased under one roof, which made things much easier. erm I think it made things a lot cheaper, because you had larger firms able, able to buy in bulk, and also the beginnings of the ready-made market. Now in a big department store, say like Debenhams, you could go in, and you could select your cloth and get the ladies round the back to make it up for you. Or you could buy dresses, one or two dresses that were all complete except for the seam down at the back and the seams under the arms. You know those skirts you can buy in Liberty's, the skirts and blouses that all you need to do is zip up the back? It's that sort of thing. They weren't terribly popular, I don't think, because of course, the women were used to a personalized fit, and when you get, start getting mass production like that, then obviously a lot of the very good fitting garments that, I mean that's just not possible. And fashions of the eighteen-forty did rely quite a lot on very close fitting garments, so I don't, I think that's the reason why they weren't more popular and didn't develop faster than they did. Oh good. That's better It's back to front, Oh yes! Now look, you can't have everything! Right, this is an extremely good slide, I did take this myself, erm of the actual dress of the eighteen forties, I'll just sort of point out its components. You've got a quite high neck, it was a lower for the evening, I mean most dresses all the way through the nineteenth century, and now being lower for the evening. But most of them would have a neck that was quite high; modesty was getting to be a really important factor, so we're covered from head to toe. The sleeves and shoulders are very sloping — can you see it's sort of, the line's gone very drooping, I mean somebody said it gave the impression of melting butter, and, and that's really the sort of figure that you've got. Any fullness of the sleeves at all, and as you go through the eighteen-forties, the sleeves gradually get tighter and tighter; what little fullness there is comes either below the elbow or, or just on the elbow itself, so you can see the fairly, they are gathered sleeves, but the actual shoulder piece is very tight. The bodice itself is very well fitted, very closely fitted and the women were very tightly corseted. This again, from the health problems of the early eighteen hundreds, eighteen-twenties, which caused a great deal of pneumonia and chills and fevers and all that because women would insist on wearing muslin and very little else. Now you get the health problems caused by over tight corseting, which led to constriction of lungs, of ribs, in some cases, punctured lungs, a lot of cases of T B in the eighteen forties were in fact where the corset had compressed the ribs so tightly, that they'd actually punctured the lung. Not . erm This also meant that you couldn't move around very fast, the clothes were so tightly made, that for a large part of the time, you were immobile and glad to be, glad to be so. And dresses are getting fuller — haven't actually reached the crinoline stage, but a more uncomfortable sort of stage where layers and layers of petticoats, so, over your undergarments you'd wear like eight or nine flannel cotton petticoats to give an impression of fullness. So in fact the crinoline, although in some ways it had its disadvantages, I think it was a good deal more comfortable than, than wearing a lot of petticoats and being very restricted like that. The colours were very subdued, very, very sombre, erm dove greys, muted blues, nothing bright at all, now this wasn't because of dyes, although later on in the eighteen-sixties when chemical dyes really took off, the colours were correspondingly garish and bright. This is really to sort of reflect the feelings of the times, which I will come to, so that's basically fashionable dress in the eighteen-forties. That's even better, but I didn't take it. This is a picture of Florence Nightingale and her sister who has an unpronounceable name, this is in the eighteen-forties, and this really summarizes I think, the psychological reasons behind the changing of fashion; this shows the ideal woman of the eighteen- forties. You had to be the, the perfect woman who was one, who had grown up from the little girl of the eighteen-thirties who was all bouncy and skippy and optimistic; now she had to be very quiet, she was admired for her innocence, for her delicate nature and her dainty physique. And it was her duty to be guided by an intellectual judgement and authority that was superior to hers — in other words, her husband's or her father's. She was supposed to be very, very quiet, she had to, I think complete submission was really the key point of women in the eighteen-forties. And the costume itself enforced this, if you can imagine, you can see, see their upper sleeves, this is actually quite full round here, but the upper sleeves are quite tight, which means that you can't move like this very easily. You were very tightly corseted, which makes any exertion almost impossible because if you can't fill your lungs to take enough air then obviously you can't take enough exercise, which is why a lot of women would faint with shock or horror because any sort of sharp intake of breath, and they'd be flat on their backs, unconscious. Full skirts — goodness knows how many petticoats made walking very hard, so all this almost enforced leisure upon them, and this was again part of the duty of the woman to show that she didn't need to work, she didn't in fact even have to lift a finger because the man or her servants would do all this for her. In eighteen oh six, erm a law was passed which said that all property of a woman went over to the man on their marriage, including herself, so the woman was no longer an individual, she was just the property of the man and she could be disciplined and punished if the man felt like it. Obviously, I think there was, erm sort of a thin line between grievous bodily harm and a good beating, but a lot of women, a lot of middle class and upper class women, were in fact beaten and disciplined quite severely, and we have records of this, you know, from people's diaries, that actually talk about it in a very manner of, matter of fact way. There's a quotation here from one of the ladies' magazines at the time: ‘woman was given to man to be his better angel, to dissuade him from vice, to stimulate him to virtue, to make home delightful and life joyous, in the exercise of these gentle and holy charities, she fulfils her high vocation’— pretty inspiring stuff! The ideal woman was of, was purity and doing your duty and domestic. I think it was copied from Victoria, Victoria had a lot of influence upon women obviously, she had a lot of children; women too, women, apart from the fact there was no effective contraception, it was the duty of woman to bear a lot of children so that they could carry on the line, which was also why woman had to be very chaste and pure so that man could be sure that the son that she produced was actually his legitimate heir. So there was another sort of factor of passing down your wealth that made the women's chastity so important. I've called it, the talk, ‘Little Dorrit’ because I think the character in the book by Dickens really shows the ideal of womanhood in the eighteen-forties. Now, I'm not going to go into a discussion about Dickens' view of women, which was fairly peculiar, but I do think that the popular feeling of the times was very much inclined towards the ‘Little Dorrits’. I've got some quotes here that I've taken from the book which shows not only how Dickens thought women ought to behave, but how the readers, since he was writing for a public market, the readers too thought the ideal woman ought to behave. We have heard her described as: ‘a diminutive figure with small features and a slight spare dress; she was little and light, noiseless and shy’. And another: ‘it was not easy to make out Little Dorrit's face, she was so retiring, a delicately bent head, a tiny form, a quick little pair of busy hands, what affection in her words, what compassion in her repressed tears, what a great soul of fidelity within her, how true the light that shed false brightness round her’. It's a bit unfair on Dickens taking out such incredibly ghastly stuff from his book, but I, I do think it shows, it shows how women were expected to behave. Right, this is a fashion plate; a ball dress in the eighteen-forties, and I'm just showing this actually to make another point; sort of change of direction maybe, because I'm now going to almost undo everything that I've just said, and say that this was the fashion, high fashion of the eighteen forties. But please don't go away thinking that every Victorian woman in the eighteen- forties went around dressed like this. I think that's like saying ‘every woman in the nineteen nineties went round dressed in Chanel and Yves St Laurent, or something equally as wild as that. I know in, was it eighty-nine, there was a fashion Yves St Laurent put, putting, was putting out a fashion for women to walk around with one breast bared, now in Oxford I just saw nobody dressed like that! I don't know about you, but maybe they were dressed like that in London, but I don't think so. And I think where the confusion sometimes comes, is that the costume you have, the, the actual evidence of what people were wearing, a lot of it comes from fashion plates, and it's like saying, erm judging what people in the nineteen-nineties wear from Vogue magazine. It doesn't give a very realistic picture; again a lot of the costume in museums, it gives a distorted view because the clothes that people keep are generally their best clothes — their ball dresses, their wedding dresses. The collection at Woodstock has goodness knows how many silk wedding dresses, but it would be wrong to assume that every Victorian woman went round dressed in a white silk wedding dress, because they didn't. I actually have at the back which I will show in a minute, a costume that was worn by a woman in the eighteen-forties, and it shows how she has kept up with the fashion; it is a fairly fashionable dress, but it is adapted for real life, for day to day life, for for the life of an ordinary middle class woman who had perhaps one or two servants, but had to do the running of the household herself. Could I just ask you, did those bodices do up at the back with hooks and eyes? Yes, that's one of the interesting things about this. When I first saw it, when I was looking at it, I was amazed at these huge great hooks and eyes, and I thought ‘gosh, they can't have been very good at making hooks and eyes if they had to make them so big’. But actually, because they were very tight, they had to be whacking great things so that they wouldn't bend under the pressure. Yes so they're actually the least attractive bit of the dress, I think is the fastening and the boning underneath. Here we are: now this was worn by one of the Dew family who actually donated a large collection to Woodstock. And it was worn in the eighteen forties, and they were a very ordinary, ordinary family, I can't remember what Mr Dew did, but I mean, it was nothing special, he was he was just an ordinary professional man I think. Maybe they had one or two servants, but a lot of the household, running, was left to her. You can see it's, it's quite short actually, and I don't, I mean, she wasn't that small, because you can tell by the, the rest of the, the size of the bodice and the length of the arms that she wasn't as small as this dress would make her out to be. So it's actually quite short, and you can see here that it has in fact been shortened, and also you can see the terrible stitching with which it was done. And this is another fallacy that really struck me when I saw this; you imagine Victorian stitchery to be uniformly fine and perfect, twenty stitches to the inch and that sort of thing. Now we do have some dresses that are like that, but the ordinary ones, I think were made in, because she needed a new dress and she needed it pretty soon, so some of the sewing is just terrible. And particularly, erm you'll be able to have a look later. But the bit fastening the waistband to the skirt is huge great stitches and very coarse thread, which is actually a bit of a shame. But she put it up here, I think probably to make it easier, I mean if anyone's had, I don't know if anyone had children in the seventies when it was the fashion to wear very long skirts, or even as I find going up and down stairs in my nightie, you're more than likely to fall and break a leg and the baby's neck at the same time, if you wear a long skirt. I think they found that it just wasn't practical to wear very long dresses; it was alright for dressing up, but not for every day. The bodice is quite small, but it's actually not as, you read about eighteen inch waists, I mean this is nowhere near an eighteen inch waist, and although she would have worn corsets, she obviously didn't wear, you can see there, so much corseting that she couldn't move, and that she couldn't bend down if she had to. So that the, the dress reflects fashion, you can see we've got a slightly puffed sleeve and it's quite full here, but it is tight at the shoulder, and the shoulder itself, here we are, sort of slopes down, so you've got the basic line of the full skirt, a bodice at the waist, and this is very pretty, this pleating here. There it is. But it's been adapted, it's been worn by an ordinary person doing everyday things, and I think that's, it's something that's, it's very important to remember when you're studying Victorian fashion and Victorian costume, that actually a lot of the documentary evidence gives a very biased picture and that to find clothes like this, I think you get a much more realistic picture of what people actually wore. And sort of, I think it shows a lot the timelessness of, of costume and clothes, because this could be worn, I mean I'm, you'd get a few looks, but I mean it could be worn today and it's quite, it's awfully Laura Ashley isn't it Mmm I mean it, perhaps that's where she gets it from. But I mean, I could wear this, especially in Oxford, you can wear almost anything. And, and not look extraordinary or out of the way at all, and I think all true clothes, I mean true sort of timeless costume, you can wear at anytime. Right, that's it; next week we'll move on to the eighteen fifties and sixties. Does anyone have any questions? Well a comment really, I was sitting browsing at Blackwell's sale, and they've got at half price, a beautiful book I was skimming through, with photographs of Victorian fashion, if you're interested Oh right, is that on sale A great big tome of a book, ++ But erm, again a comment, she's not a very good dressmaker. Look at the difference of the pleating at the, of the tucks at the bottom Yes, They vary enormously We can see yes, yes Yes, and she's obviously tacked that up, but you can see the stitching round the waistband, and she's repaired it, but even here You don't think it could have been the lady of the house's dress shortened for a maid Possibly It's got a false hem on it you see, so it's obviously That would give it weight as well. Yes, I mean this would help to keep it down. But if you'd got enough fabric, you would have just done the same Yes. With the same fabric. I know this was actually worn by her, I don't, I, I'm not sure whether it was given to her maid, I don't think so. erm I think she did actually just put it up. I thought the erm department stores didn't get here until eighteen-sixty. Well not according to‘the book’. I mean, Selfridges obviously came much later, that's was absolutely correct with that. Yes, yes. But I thought erm, I didn't realise that they'd got the Fineoak , Fineoak and Silkcounters It looks like the Army and Navy have been going for hundreds of years, Army and Navy Stores Yes, I, I've got this from the History of Debenhams,Fineoak and Silkcounters When, when did actually Debenhams start then, do you know I can't remember the actual year, but I know, I mean it's by the eighteen forties, it's the eighteen forties. Yes. Did they have sewing machines in the eighteen-forties Eighteen-sixties. Eighteen sixties It wasn't until eighteen sixty-five that you got one that didn't, you know, erm that did lockstitch and not chainstitch. That'd make all the difference, didn't it? Yes. But that was terribly expensive, terribly expensive, I mean in eighteen ninety-nine, they were six pounds and a farm labourer then was getting seventeen shillings. Yes, I know, I think, I think hand stitching went on for, I mean, I mean certainly further, where you need vast quantities of linen, like baby linen, a lot of that sort of hand . Could you say something about the gloves? I take it I wear gloves when I'm dealing with costumes Oh! No, though these are my gloves, it's so that I don't get perspiration on the, on the dress, yes, or rings or anything, so I thought they looked still modern! Yes Yes, they're surgical gloves, but they're just to stop, to stop them, erm, it, it erm rots the fabric. How've you stopped the material rotting, anyway, it's lasted very well, hasn't it? Yes it has Do you hang them up, or? They're hung, they're hung up on polished hangers usually, I mean it's packed in acid-free tissue paper, and I wear gloves when I, I mean, you know, handle Generally when they're folded they just go, just like that, I mean Perforated silk, I mean silk, even if it's hung up and looked after very carefully, it just cracks with age, which is very sad, I mean some of our wedding dresses are just, the skirts are literally in shreds, you know, where they've just got How many dresses does the County have in the collection? Ooh! Actually, I mean, we've got a big costume collection, I mean it's sort of, you're talking thousands of garments altogether. They're not on show because displaying costume is very difficult, because you have to have very strict environment control; and light has to be very dim and you have to watch the relative humidity. And you can't let people touch them so they have to be in glass cases which are hugely expensive and take up a lot of room, and the director is not very interested in costume. Which I think is the main reason actually. So you send people over to Bath, do you, to see it. Well, when it's open, it's not open at the moment, I think it's opening in April, re-opening in April ninety-one. How long does you happen to have in his family, how long have they been in the collection? I mean, amazing that that lasted so long through Yes, you'd expect Seventy-four, they came in to the collection in seventy-four. So they've kept a very long time. George Dew was a collector, I mean, he gave his whole collection to us, I mean, he just collected everything. Oh I see, I see All sorts of things. I, I just wondered you know. Yes, that's why we're very lucky, I mean because, because people don't keep stuff like this, so erm yes, we're very lucky to have it. Good, thank you. Thank you very much Right What's, what's next week? The eighteen fifties and sixties. I think that's the right Born at hundred and twenty two Willenhall. One of a family of six and me elder brother was me bro me dad had a little business in the keys in and er they were hard times and me elder brother we used to go and work for him because me dad said he must and er from, after school I used to go and perhaps do the errands or a bit of filing, the odd jobs and all that sort of thing and I grew up with locks and keys and files from twelve, even before I left school. I didn't leave school till I was fifteen. I said to me mother, I ain't going to work for me dad like our Albert did. I'm going to get a job on me own. And we had a neighbour named and he'd worked at E T N S all his life and had some influence and I mentioned it to him and he asked me, asked me if he could find me a job. He asked the masters and they said you can come for an interview. I went for an interview at E T N S in now where it is and er they said can you start today and I said no. er, so er no that wasn't no Started at Started at that's right, yes and er I did and er they put me in the machine shop filing keyhole and Those times they had to be all cast over the rim locks and all that, now they've made for us and all that. But er I did two or three hundred, four hundred, five hundred a day and I got fed up on it and I said to the gaffers one day, if you don't change me from this job I'm leaving, so they says oh we don't want you to do that, best filer we've had. So a fellow named Mr worked at he was a neighbour, I got talking to him he says I'll mention it and you can come. I got this job in the machine sh in one of the lock shops and er for a fellow, I worked for him and er after I'd been working for him they wanted me to work for somebody else but this fellow wouldn't let me go. He says he's, he's my bloke, he's gonna stick with me. So I had to work with him till I was about twenty or twenty-one or something like that, you know. Then I was able to er go for my own self, you know and er I went on doing locks, one thing and another, best I could and all that sort of thing and I worked for a, a bloke what was in there er be a little bloke but he was the best locksmith in the shop and I went to help him and er he used to give me all the to do and this and that and the other. He had separate orders, each locksmith and at this time I'd done all the ord whatsit er and this and that and the other and I said what's next? He says there ain't nothing else next and er so er I stood there and I said this, kind of like this I've gotta do something so er I went er to pick sommat up down the back but before that he said, here you are, he says I put these ready all you gotta do is put the screws in those locks you know,like. And he says, I says listen, young man, the locks I ain't gonna put them in, and this is true, and he said well if you won't do that you'll do nothing else at all. So I stood by the vice for quite a time and then I went to pick something up, turned round, told you, you do that you'll do nothing else. So I left and er went out the shop. I asked the gaffer I says can I get out? He says you're out and I not yet I said. Well, I went home and I got another job and it, then I went back, I says can I have me card? He says yes if you're paying me a week's wages and I says I can't do that. He says, well then, he says you could or you couldn't you haven't served a week's notice. It's one or the another. So I had to serve a week's notice and I went down this er what's the name of it? where I went to work down there and in a month they put, it was amongst a shop of about sixteen men and they all had separate orders and the men had got little lads working for them, you know. But there was a foreman in the shop, but these did their own job er and er in the about three or four weeks, and I'm only a kid, erm they had me doing separate jobs you know, not for a gaffer or anything and er they used to, they give me odd jobs as, you know like, to help the men and er it went of like that in till I was eighteen or nineteen, well twenty, that time you were, day, become a man. Er one time the locksmiths had a rise from ni eighteen, twenty to twenty-one a man, it was a big rise but the locksmiths' union they altered it from to twenty and a half, twenty-one, twenty-one and a half, three rises before you went from a lad to a man's raise, you know. Well that happened and er I was man and er they er brought me all the odd jobs that was going about and they used to go down the warehouse and er there was a fellow there, well a woman more than anything, know'd where every thing was and in no time at all they showed me where the things were and er I er, young, it was in my memory, and in no time at all the men in the shop used to come and ask me to get them something from out the warehouse for this and that and the other. And in no time at all erm they were all more or less depending in some small way on me, and I was just absolutely lapping the situation up, you know what I mean, just suited me fine. And er after a time, they wanted to know if I'd take complete charge and I said well yes I said, but what are the men gonna think? And they said we don't mean to be over the men, but what we mean is for you to come down the office, no what the office wants as regards orders, and be responsible and pass them out to the men who you'll think who'll do the job best and all that, and that's what we mean. So I said alright, I'll do that, and I did. And it meant that I had free access to the whole of the so much so, I had a key to the bottom of entry in er access to the firm and I could get in when I liked. They put complete trust in me you understand what I mean? And er I'd got a key to get in from the works into the office once I was inside, but that was access to the works you know and er I er I en I enjoyed it more or less and I must say the firm, to some extent, looked up to me and I'd only got to have a damned machine stop, where the girls was working on this machine, and the bobbin shop and all that sort of thing, and I was able to go look er, down and say look here I want this. Well, whatever they was doing, they'd drop and do whatever I said it, and it was the same with the bobbin shop, you know. Mind you these was instructions from the office to me, telling me what I, what they wanted and I had to carry it out. And er, then I should go to the bobbin shop and ask them if they could get these done today and er, well we got this on, I said no but I, we want it if you could leave them on one side and erm I used to er I, I became, if I might say so and I'm not boasting or bragging or anything, Michael, I'm trying to tell you the situation as it was and er I was a very important man to and er they er got me er at one time to er figure out, they, they used to make what was called Woolworths locks. It's rather surprising to you, but they used to sell them in Woolworths for sixpence. they had to sell them for three and threepence, three farthings. And they were sold in Woolworths for er sixpence. Er you can't imagine this I don't suppose, but nevertheless it's true and in a time, the men in the shop they was mass-production, you know what I mean and they wanted this or that or the other, well I had the authority to go down the machine shop and tell them, look here, so and so wants this you do that. And we had four casters in the works and I had to go and sort out the, I'll tell you about the find the castings that these men wanted for their lot, take them down to the castors and tell them in priority which I wanted, you know and er all that sort of thing and erm I hadn't used to do any, making any locks hardly at the end, you know I had, I had before but er if I might say so, er I became mo the most important man on the factory, you know. And er I never heard or had any more ways than ordinary. This was in was it? Yes, that's right in That's er, that's where it was, my lad and that was the entry as I used to get access from remembering it ain't quite like it was now, my lad. But there was a big door, well I used to get in the entry from, with an ordinary key, used to go up the b up the op big opening and open the big doors from the insides, you see what I mean, for the rest to come in. And erm there was half a dozen shops and quite a few, spent most of me life there. I le I left there starting to work on me own. As a matter of fact, there was about, I got four month in this one particular shop and there became sixteen men, in this shop, that was working for me and er er we, I instituted a bonus scheme. Oh two or three years before, only it turned out, after a time, that the men were earning more money than me because I, the bonus, you understand, it was a good thing for the firm, it was a good thing for the men. It was a bad thing for me, strictly speaking, because the men became as they was earning more money than me and this is complete fact. Erm I had a go at one of the gaffer's. I said look here, you've put me in a job I reckon I've done it alright, the only thing is it's me that is the worse off now. I says I'd like a rise. They said oh that's alright. Well, it came to the and it was in the shop and they said what do you want? And I said a Pound and they said what? I said a Pound. They said we'll give you five shilling and I used this very, very I said you can stick that up th wear it in your arse and that's the truth. And they looked like that and I says, what, I says, they've caused these men to earn all this money I says they're earning more money than and that's all you're gonna offer me? And it brought about the bridge, Michael. I said I said er, Irene come from Manchester. nothing at all. No, nothing at all about the lock and two years after closed and it was because of this because the men on the phone told me so and er anyway brought about the bridge and er I er accepted it, you know what I mean, it was that was it, I'd done it myself. But I was walking in the market place, shortly after, only about just over a week after, and I met an old fellow who had retired from Hello Graham! What you doing? Not much I says no I'm out of a job. He says what! I says you hear what I said I've got I explained a bit to him he says, I tell you what, there's something going down He says they don't make nothing there, he says, but they buy anything and everything. He says it's come to my knowledge cos er they want this and that and the other. So he says you ought to go down there, you can mention my name. So I went down and Mr at that time was Mayor of Willenhall, a very influential man, and he was er over and er his son had to became in charge, but anyway I went to see him it was Mr and er about it and he says er well we got er a order for four locks here, he says er I wonder if er you could quote me for them? I says, well I'll have a look and quote. I, I says, I'll let you know sometime today or tomorrow and er anyway, he was expecting me to say at least two or three or four weeks you know er because I'd put the situation I had no tools, no nothing and erm I er had a look at it and I thought what I could do, and I says I can let you have them in a week. What! He says, I can, I can let you have them in a week. He had an old brew house there and on the side of the sink there I built a good staunch bench about like that square, put a vice on it you know. And I'll say this now, they was in business there, nextdoor, and I knew them like that, they says any machinery come here and use it, and they'd got shears and all that sort of thing, and with their help, you know, I had these four locks and did them and took them down in no time to m to er, to and they was flabbergasted because of the quickness of them, you know, and they says er we can always find you sommat to work if er this is the case. So I er carried on with what they found me with this in the brew house and then er where did I go from there? You went Then I went, that's right me I would've, me brother and I would've got a pub in erm excuse me asking these questions because it's a bit vague, you know that's fine, don't worry and er and er in the piece of property at the back of the pub, down the opposite side of the road, down a lane you went on to and there was a football field, couple of football fields there and prior to this, they'd have to if they could use this little place as a stripping room and he said yes. Well when he said I could come it was er September. So I worked down here and nights up there preparing it and all round this, this place was coat hooks and that, where they all hung their things and I had to knock them down, you know what I mean, and fix me own benches up and er I'd got a little treadle lather and er sufficient for me to start. And then, after a time, we er had the er electricity took up the yard and into the shop and then we was able to buy a little machine you know what I mean and it went from there. And I supplied, ooh couldn't tell you the firms. As a matter of fact a fre fellow named lived in here and he was a traveller to er George he's one of the best, biggest rim lockmakers in the town, anyway, they're on this erm now and er he was going round for orders for regulars of his, for his firm and somebody, one day, asked him look here, we've got a little awkward job here, you know anybody the can you do it? Oh he says we couldn't do that he says that now, he says I couldn't get that done for you. But after a thinking he says listen, leave it with me, I'll see what I can do. So they did that and he came and sorted me out. I dunno how he knew about me. But he came and sorted me out and I asked, I said I'll see what I can do and I got hold of it and I did it for him. And he was bringing orders right, left and centre off of his clients. England, Ireland, Scotland and Wales Michael, no doubt about it. And in no time at all, I didn't have to ask for jobs, I'd got more than I could do, you know and er I was still, very well taken care of in the shop. It was a lovely shop, bought it up here up But, me brother left the brew left the pub and er it meant that I had to get out you know. Well with about forty visits to er Walsall, the council and different other departments Yes, that's right love. Two friends of mine and they says er c can we find you a place in our that's right love. Er Arthur and er played for Walsall football club, Arthur but er they, little shop there. I cleared that and fixed the vice up and they said I could do that and I used the and that in their place and er then they had to quit the premises completely, didn't they? I mean they'd got to be out for er couldn't tell you, Christmas or something like that. Poor Mr died and Mr they had to come out and Arth Arthur Arthur had retired. His pal his workmate was retired and a few months after, Arthur died, so it left me the one and the owners of the property, they give me notice to quit and no messing about er and when I talked to them, they give me twelve months, rate free, to erm get out. And as I say, I was able to get in touch with me brother and fix this little shop up there and er no I've said that I've er, I've er You don't come Eh? You don't come famous London fair. But er The ship that the Queen sailed on and Princess Elizabeth I'll tell you about that in a minute and then er I er had to go about forty times for permission. That side of this ro industrial, this side is residential and that's strict, you know what I mean. But this premise was there at that time and by oh I had to go to a great extent on a number of visits and they er granted it me on compassionate grounds and there's er I was only looking in the back of there the other day and there's one there now. Cos there's er due to retire d in, in nineteen forty-two, nineteen eighty-two, a three year licence to own that premise there. You know, this is how it was first and I only come across that but, how it went, they felt I was genuine I suppose and they could trust me and they left it as it was and I had me own building. I had er I sent the dimensions to the firm at Oxon and er I had to go to the bank and borrow the money, because you see the money I paid if I don't pay cash I'd gotta have six months delivery. And they er, I ordered this the one Saturday and two weeks after they come and put it up. That was how it was, two weeks after and er It was otherwise six months if you don't pay cash. If I don't pay cash and er been the best thing I ever done and its been sufficient, you know what I mean and er all the people, there ain't nobody in this town that I ain't worked for, sometime or other. All the odd jobs they've sent to me and my stock-in-trade was special-purpose items or customers' requirements. I never ever had a running line as I could offer anybody, although you know when the museum come, when I had orders for two or three dozen. If I had an order for thirty-six I'd make thirty-seven, you know what I mean. Cos, in case there was a mistake and on one side and I, and I had quite a number of things accumulate in that way you know. But I never ever had a running line, although they did have an order for so many like that and I'd keep the patterns and the gages and if they wanted any more later on, you know, I used to do that sort of thing for the sake of me customers and all that. And er they er went around the town and if anybody wanted anything, it, this applied to local householders and all that sort of thing. When they was doing the decorating and that and a lock went wrong oh take it down to Dick and er they'd bring it and whatever I was doing, however important it was, just because they'd be finish the decorating at night and they wanted to put the lock back, I'd drop what I was doing and do this for them. And I was gonna tell you this. I don't know whether you'll think I'm boasting but that isn't the case, but I never ever regretted it and it a great deal of respect for me, you know and I could see that and did appreciate it and I know the people appreciated it just the same and erm it's gone on from then till now but about, I retired in seventy-three, I was sixty-five and I said I'd only do what anybody wanted for me, cos they had me in for the tax and I never ever heard twenty-one I think it was or thirty-one in come and I'd go before I could satisfy them at Walsall but er I'd got, not got enough money to be taxed in the bank, which was true. please understand me, but no thousands of Pounds is er taxable, see what I mean they've never, I should never applied and they had to send about oh above twenty returns, yearly return. I was up till three o'clock in the morning, very often, getting these prepared because they wanted them as quickly as possible, you know and er er it was the same when I, I don't know when Mm? Where are you now? Yes, well er I was saying er it was this Mr I think it was, but it was to do with er a big firm in at the time and they wanted er some locks at Liverpool There was a big firm in Liverp Birkenhead and there was a big firm in London. It was er international company sommat like that Ching and er they asked me about it and I said I'll see what I can do. So er what was it er? You, you made them And er, that's right and they told me what they wanted and er that's right, there was a hundred and fifty-five locks. Five different kinds for different parts of the ship. About thirty in each suite to differ and a master key and as I say there was five suites and they had to make a key that'd open everyone of the fifty-five. Yet, there was five separate master keys to each suite. This is applied because of the wards, you understand what I mean. I had to keep more or less the leverage more or less the same because you couldn't differ them and er I er had that job to er do for and er it was the H M S Gothic and they was going to South Africa and er when er they was on, in the middle of South Africa on the coast one of the royalty died. Queen's father. George the fifth Her father. Her father died and they had to come back from their, this particular and come back. But I made their locks for H M S Gothic. Hundred and fifty-five locks, five suites, thirteen a suite approximately and er a master key to each suite and a gras grand master to take the whole lot. And there was some sliding door locks and some er lift-up locks. Erm some of the doors slide, like backwards and forwards, and some swung on hinges which is er totally different, do you understand? He used to at his brother's shop. But it was my it was my customers' requirements. This is what they wanted and I undertook to do it and I tell you, all me life I've been able to and have done that. Yes I know you hadn't finished them had you when they was ready to set sail. No And they sent a big from down there Oh ah Doctor had to fit, fetch a little parcel Yes, when they was fitting them on the H M S Gothic they sent, they Birkenhead and I asked if they, so I stopped work, all Saturday and this, this er big er were it? Yeah From Birkenhead to take these two three lots and he could put them in his but anyway, they were all gonna be done when he were down the town hall. They, they were all done and it's coming back clearly now. This is perfectly true and he thought he'd be back the same day and he wasn't. But because he wasn't, I worked as hard as I could until dark, about night time, to get them done for the next day. And he says well, I can wait till tomorrow, better than going back and coming again. So er I went down the Red Lion in Willenhall and fixed him up for a night's dosh, didn't I, and the driver and then er I worked on, worked on and on and was able to get these er done for him to take back to fit this ship. Cos it was due to sail on the same day, on the Sunday, you know what I mean and er it was these locks as I'm telling you about and her a very, very famous firm and er my correspondence come from London because he had offices was there, you know and erm our erm I've been at the service as I, if I might say so, but in most people it's surprising how it get's round and er the jobs that I've had to do. They come once from Tetnall church. It er they'd had a fire there and they wanted to know if I could replace the lock. I said certainly. Well, they'd got the skeleton that wanted a big brass lock but er oh you know, lovely and er it was more trouble getting the thing through the pan to get er the case than putting the insides in it, if you follow what I mean. But it was for the lock from the people, you know and he, he got round like this, and this is the God's truth as well again, he'd come to me from America and er they, I had to make locks for certain people they called them statos, status symbols there, in their own houses, you know, where they put this lock on and anybody as he's got one like that, you know and from America to Dick in Willenhall to make them. We've, we've got some But this is the truth,Mi Michael. We've got some of those big gate locks as well, you made one of Have you? those as well, yes that, that you, you made, yeah Yes Yeah Yes, yes well as I say, you're coming into the shop and I don't know what was in now I couldn't tell you, but anyway And the lighthouse locks you made Yes, yes the lighthouse locks. The lighthouse locks, yes Oh, the lighthouse locks that was wonderful. I made lighthouses, locks for li lighthouses all round the world, Michael. This is the truth my lad and the first I made for was for the that, just off Canada, is is New Foundland? New Foundland there, there was a lighthouse there and er because these people worked together, you know. It's the same as everything and everybody and because er they were satisfied with it, they wanted some more and they took the old lo lock off and put some more on what I'd made, see what I mean. And I made locks for lighthouses, I'm not boasting my lad, and they'd li locks, locks for lighthouses pretty near all round the world. And onto ou round Australia and that and I mentioned I started in New Foundland, yes. Used to be lovely to go on a trip with him. big er houses, you know. You'd lose him when you got inside, he'd be examining the locks on the doors. Ah I'd say where, where'd you go? Oh, he's looking at that lock there. You, you mentioned also a bit once, when I came before, about the erm the, the lock for the cricket ground. Was it Lord's? Oh yes Lord's, yes I made four locks for the gates on Lord's cricket ground er and when I'm telling you this, and practically without exception, they must've er got to know me and they come for what they wanted. Couldn't really tell you what it was now, but I made four locks for Lord's cricket ground. There was four gates on the ground apparently. They was gate locks. You wouldn't call them like flashy locks or you know, like mortice as you fit in the door or anything like that. It's what the customer required, gate locks. They'd gotta be secure as you could imagine and er not easily picked, if you follow what I mean and er yes, made I made four locks for Lord's cricket ground. Did, did the big companies like Parks and, and Yale and so on. Did they come to you at all? Yes they did, but very, very seldom. They er they used to come at the first, and I'll tell you this and I, it's my opinion, they got one of their own men er I'd foxed them off, you know what I mean, to do their own odd jobs. It was much more convenient than putting them out, see. But I have worked for the Yale and Parks's in the very first instance, yes. Why, do you want to say sommat then, what? When , when you were working at what sort of lock were you making there? Was this, this was the coin lock, coin- operated locks, was it? Er well, they made. The re the essence of was they made more or less the customers' requirements. Now, the Yale and Union locks they'd got a certain type of locks that they produced and it was all done with a system, you know what I mean and more or less come to assembly and er they did that. But these firms, as I said, they wanted this or that or the other and with er because of this fellow Mr he did nothing to get it out of his so it just happened, you know what I mean. And I'll send that to Dick and he'll fix you're up and saved them going to the lot of trouble on their own er ground. Money was, particularly, no object, you follow what I mean, people in that kind of business. I never ever charged enough, never ever charged enough, but they said Dick will fix you up, you know. And their odd jobs, they'd probably got men in their own factory to do it, but no they sent them to Dick and I er used to oblige. And er I was well known if I might say and proud of this Michael. Well respected and they'd all er have a word me anytime and I could go into any office you know what I mean and er yeah. they was mortice locks weren't they? we, we worked in my shop, that's what I was telling you about. There was quite a few men and made more or less the customers' requirements and when I was in charge, there was sixteen and they, about in two or three parties, er you know and they'd make different kinds of locks what was ordered and not particularly er mortice or rim er what the customer required. Didn't they make the slot locks? Yes. That's what he wanted to know. Yes and er I er they got me on that and I'd er seen a bit on it before hand one way or another, but I went to a place and, and asked them if I could er see and er they showed me and explained it, the er the way to er. Cos you could put one coin in or two and er sometimes th there was halfpennies and pennies then. Well, you put halfpenny through, it,th th th the gap was too wide and it went right through. If you put a penny in, it was like that Michael, whereas a penny could it come like that and held it. It moved two things which put it into operation, you know and er I could turn the knob and it'd get the whole thing going, it'd get you inside, it'd register that it'd been, when you shut the door, as soon as you shut, in the toilets, as soon as you shut the door the penny dropped down, see what I mean. It was, you opened it and come out and shut, shut the door and you'd lose the penny then they'd got to go through the same operation with another penny, you know what I mean. And er I erm I organised a lot of that sort of thing erm by er it was exact measurements and spindles and you know like Erm yes, I couldn't remember a lot now but er a lot of people, if I might say so, used me you know, Michael, my knowledge and skill and I allowed them to and I'm not complaining. Well they're used to them slot locks on the toilets, aren't they? Right. Yeah Where where did you learn most of your, your skills as a locksmith? Was it at or Yes. or bef before then? Yes because I went to, I only had a few weeks at er and that was and I wouldn't stick that. I says I want to learn sommat so I went to and I don't know what it was, whether it was my attitude, but they, they asked me to do this and I was so good at it, so they started finding jobs for me and it was at and I was anxious for knowledge, and I tell you took anything on, which is important and the big firms didn't. As a matter of fact, I'm saying earlier on, that the big firms send them to you know to er They were mass-production Whatever, whatever want or could get, oh bring it here we'll do it. They used to come to Dick see. Wh what, what sort of hours did you work when you were at did they, did they change Only or over the years? No, only ordinary. And what were they? Well, we used to work from eight to half-past five and then from eight to half-past twelve, fifty-two and half hours, when I started first. But er you know it come down to forty-six and usually only do about thirty-eight now that is, sommat like and er it's only half a week. But when I started it was fifty-two and a half hours a week yes. And er the half hour was er erm we had nine and a half five days, that was er from eight till half past five I don't know but it was fifty-two and a half hours, from eight till half-past twelve on a Saturday and er Did, did you get breaks during the day? Were did you Oh yes You did. You always er About half past twelve You always had a I had a dinner-time, half-past twelve to half-past one, every day and er you was allowed to have a cup of tea. As a matter of fact, a lot of the firms provided the cup of teas, you could go and get one, you know what I mean. I think at that time you had to pay for it, but you could go and have ten minutes, sommat like that, and a cup of tea. It weren't er just all you know, there was a certain amount of er thought attached to it and as I say, the people was er accepted by the gaffers and er respected, you know what I mean. But there was always them as just wanted to come and do nothing and pick the money up and that's what they had to sort out the firms. And I, I don't think that's changed now, do you? I don't think it's changed but that has applied all the while, my lad. Yes. Yes and er if I might s oh I er don't know I've been to bloody shop meself but I ain't sorry about it, cos I've done what I've wanted to do and I've enjoyed what I've done and erm the authorities they get'd me that on er hardship grounds there, as I say, being on er residential premise and er they showed me great respect and er Too old to travel on that's why they the local council, who, who, I wo, I call it used me but not in er whatsit sense, er it's helped, you know it's, it's helped them and er whatever, it's become well-known if I might say so, in locks, I'll go to Dick Were, were there a lot of erm sort of small workshops like yours, a few years ago when you There were started up? There were There were. As a matter of fact, when I'm talking about, let me see er fifty years ago, there was one up at every back yard, that's the truth. And er used to go. I'd got one didn't I, that's right. But erm What, why why do you think they, why do you think they've gone, so many of them? Why do you think they've disappeared? Well, er the reason was erm technique and science and they'd, they all the firms or who was in business had to make locks their own way, you know what I mean and use the best facilities they could get hold of, but science and progress came into being and they cou they made what you could call locks erm repetition. Er they had a lock, made it a good lock and sent it to all the clients and this is what we can supply, and it used to meet the needs of clients and they'd er they'd erm buy it and it kept them in business, you see what I mean? And then other firms did that and er they was the same people nearly, got their own lines and it was worse that was, so they got onto the same lines and er the competition became then financial There used to be nearly every I say the competition then, later on became financial. Them as who could make it a bit cheaper see, and all that. But you said erm certain things could be we had, had a machine once and you'd got to pull four or five handles. When you had pulled five handles there was an article produced. each, each time you pulled a handle it did one job and er couldn't tell you really now what it was, you know but er you'd pull the five handles in a few minutes and the damn thing was done. And er another way'd cost ten times as much and that to produce. Did, did you see much machinery being brought in while you were at ? No. As a matter of fact, that what they were lacking in and we er we had a driller and er we had a driller and er horizontal lather for turning and a grinder, when I say grinder I mean emery wheel, and that's about all we'd got in the shop. Yeah, but it was old-fashioned wasn't it So it was all ha hand work was it? Yes. Yes it was, yes it was. When you went to the driller you'd gotta hold it in your hand or get a sommat, a gadget to hold the thing on, pull put the drill in. When you had got to go to the emery wheel, you'd gotta hold the things and emery wheel them and yourself. And er Oh yes, it was very old-fashioned when you wanted to do something with the keys or operate er horizontal, there was a machine and you had to go to the do it yourself. And each man, or perhaps been one or two men doing the one jo the one order and they was each responsible for their own and then you'd gotta put your name down sometimes for a machine you know. I'm on next, you know what I mean and er oh ah, old-fashioned time, yeah. But it, it was a, it was a good place to work you think? Oh I shall never regret Er I don't know but I'm just perhaps one on me own, but er it couldn't have been better for because I was a freelance and er I wanted to learn and wanted to get on and they allowed me, they allowed me to do what I wanted. I was very, very happy. Never ever had half as much wage as I really should've had and I say to that's never bothered me. I've never ever I say this very proudly, been in debt and as long as I've earned enough money to live, I've never bothered to put any on one side strict, you know, strictly speaking and I've been happy to er live and er that's how I've lived me life. Right. I think that's that, yep. Right. But in the first instance, as I say we, I was one of six children and er I don't think there was one working while they was, I mean they was all born before there was anybody old enough to work, you find, that's And our Albert, me dad had Albert up and he er never give me mother any wages for Albert. He used to give Albert some pocket money and he was satisfied, but me mother wasn't. And I said to me mother, I says look here, when I'm old enough to work I say's, I ain't going to work for me dad I shall get a job on me own. I says he ain't doing on me what he's doing on Albert. I says I sure of that and er I left and went and got into a row over it. But I went down Harold I tell you and got the job. I couldn't have gone to a better place because they'd got most parts of the country and one thing and another and I fitted their bill to a tee. And they called me more or less er to do the odd jobs you know and in the brew house, as was here, I fixed, I told you once, I fixed a bench up, it was as tight as could be and put a vice on it and all in here, this shop here, they says you can come in here anytime and do what you like and er some friends at here, they er was in the woods line and er the gaffer, Ernie, we went through Little London School together, and he says anything we can do, anytime Richard, you've only gotta say. So I could always go up there and I used there little drill for one thing and another in the first place and er built that premise for me there did and I did er in the shop and He used to go to a lotta places er that as knocked down or, well I couldn't tell you the kind of job, but often there was some locks on the premises was er, perhaps needed repair or he wanted them to be in before he could leave the job and say here you are, that's the job done. And he used to bring anything and everything, and that's not joking, to me and er I'm proud of that. I was able to accommodate him at each time, you follow what I mean. I'd make it me business to er yes and course it was to his trade good jobs as he'd done for customers, had it done so well, they told somebody else and it brought in trade, see what I mean? When, when you were working up the shop up the back erm where, where were you getting your, your su supplies from, I mean like, were you, were you buying castings, did you need to buy Oh yes erm er I er I had er what was the what is it those in the you know You used to have a casting Aye and er er Dennis Dennis and Sammy er Sammy and er You used to have your castings from there and then you have them off Ernie They, I had them of Ernie oh that's er that's a good girl Shilling a pound, brass castings. Now brass is a pound in, in weight now never mind about shilling a pound. Ernie Ernie house the top of er there was somebody named was sold coal right on the corner by the, I believe the There was a Post Office on the corner opposite the Post Office chapel, Post er opposite the Baptist chapel and er up the back yard there, there was this premise, it was behind a pub called the Beehive and erm I rented it out there and er that was nextdoor to and the castings was a shilling a pound and er They'd do, they'd do special one-off things for your would they? Yes er that's been the essence of what I've wanted is er I've, I've had to have what I've wanted by hook or by crook, and I don't mean crook in a bad sense, I mean one way or another, you know what I mean and er I did job for the casters, same as they did jobs for me, you know and that's how I've gone through life, that is Michael. Helping one another and Three brass casters there? You had three brass casters there. Had Dennis And er Ernie You see And then were I could perhaps take a little bit of paper like that and I'd find But they were all local weren't they, anyway. I'd find Oh yes. I'd find something as er pretty near to what I wanted, you know and I could perhaps, and did, use what's called beeswax a lot, you know and er warm it up and ply it and put it onto er something to make it to what the shape I wanted, you know. So you made, you made your own patterns And then the caster'd cast that, you know and another ca time, I wanted er a projection, you know and er I'd take a casting. Cos they used to have gates with er two or three inches apart, you know and I'd gotta have a projection. Well, I could go to the casting and asked him to put the pattern in and fire it for it, to cut the sand out like that, you know so that the metal'd run in like that and you'd got the big head as you wanted, you know and er it'd take you like castings with the machine and all that sort of thing, it was all hand stuff you know and yeah They'd they'd have to be filed before you used them, would they? Oh I could go, used to get them on the emery wheel and er square them up with a pair of sliding gages. Michael, I've had to work very, very exact my lad and these things I'd got the sliding gages and put them on and they'd been the same at the front as they have at the back and that's the thickness as well. And when you've er loose them in the fore end or the front of the lock or do anything like that that article as it's in, when you lock it out it's gotta fit just as tight when it's locked out as when it's in. Which means it's gotta be exact all the way round, you know what I mean. And these are all part of er and have it trimmed up and then you can That's what I used to do they'd gotta be as I couldn't go to them No How, how did you learn to, I mean, looking at some of your locks, they're sort of very, very fine Yeah I mean did you, did you learn this as you went on or did you, did you No it was er it was er oh how can I say er I used me head and er, if you follow what I mean, and imagination and er I could envisage what, perhaps, people wanted, it was in my own mind and I'd make it up some way or another. You could call ingenuity if you like and er but it've, did apply my lad and er once you'd got one, you could have er one cast and dress it up and you'd got another one, you know what I mean. You make a thing as is gonna do the job and it's no problem then to get castings off it and all that sort of thing. But in, in a lot of instances, to answer you, I had to use me ingenuity. What I want and er how to get it. I couldn't tell you how, but it I, cos you'd, I don't want nothing, but when I did, I'd gotta use my ingenuity to get something that I could get one or two or a dozen or ten off, you know what I mean, and I gotta make it and a lot of times I made it out of wood which was easily er you know treated. Then you could get a, a piece of wood very, very rough, understand me and then cast and then you could get the cast in down to exaction, you follow what I mean and then er you could what you want. But I started off wood, nearly, nearly in every instance. Cos they used to send me er l er orders, locks on drawings and six, six or sev six or seven pages and that's all I'd got to go in, see what I mean? Well I'd start with wood and er get something rough to work off and then, use me head as I say, get it down to the requirements on the, on the paper and then start to produce eventually, you know and er You used to have your keys off Eh? You used to have your keys off Yes, Arthur Oh I know Arthur in Eddington Yes, yes They're one of the keys, best keys men in, a friend of mine. He was a, we belonged to the same shed. He used to come to and I was a member of Springbank for sixty years and er anything I can do Richard, you know. And I used to go up there and tell him what I wanted and as far as keys and anything like that, got sent to me he would. Erm, Horace, he's he was in the paper a short while ago, eighty-two were it? Horace Evans? Yes, I think so. You know and he's eighty-two now and er that makes him about five year older than me but to tw I'm talking about twenty, thirty year ago, five make no difference then, you know and we ha had the same understanding. He knew as he could come to me er he used to bring me lock keys of all sorts and er he could get the castings or the patterns or what it is like that and he knows I could fashion them to fit the lock and all that sort of thin and we were very So you'd, they, they they gave, they sent you the blanks, did they, and you'd work them up? Oh yes, oh yes yes erm and I'm on about er on about, for one thing, but you'd be surprised er it's the biggest and most elaborate trade of any in the world, locks and keys, I say that very firmly because er there's no limit, there's no extent and you, there might be required anything and as I say er I er I had these locks for the asylums and that, you know and er I thought I mentioned it before, I made fifty fifty locks all different and I had to number them and keep a record of them and er I had a, you had the keys on a wire, numbered one up to fifty and they was for big, big asylums, you know what I mean and er they could go in one ward, I'm on about places where they'd have twenty or thirty people, you know and er there's only one bloke could get in there. Be a different master key for the next ward and all that sort of thing. There was fifty and there was five levers and three lifts and I had to get a piece of paper and er make a, when you get one, two, three and then five you could have er three, three, two, one and five, four, three, two, one, you know what I mean? Then I could have two, a one, three and four three, two, one, five, do you know what I mean? And I had to make all these er computations out and er I made fifty that I thought nobody could pick. There was no Michael, it's just only way,co mind you could only do these on one-sided because when you turn your key the other side, it's gotta be th exactly the same to do the job. But this was because it was one-sided, they used to lock it from the outside and there was a catch on the inside as they could put in. They only used to ever lock the door from the outside and er I er had to make er fifty and as I say, number them one up to fifty and er then they'd perhaps on a odd occasion they sent me an order for one, the number the number and then, then your metal you used to have to hadn't you? Yes, yes yes and er but erm that was one of the most famous in my opinion. It was only a one-sided lock, which is completely and totally different to an ordinary lock er working both sides, you see what I mean and er I er I'd got to er make a key, number thirty-nine just like that, see but I had it and I could find out what thirty-nine was and I could make them one and send it and knowing it would fit see and er when they had different people working there, you know staff, things like that, not a lot of orders but er somebody else come. They might want him or her to have a key, you know and er and just ran the keys up on a thing like that, you know what I mean, they was never out of the person's possession. It wasn't er, it wasn't good to leave them about, you know what I mean and er oh er yes it's been very important, if I might say so, certain things as I've had been called upon to do and I've been happy and proud to do it. When, when you were working at were were, were, the union important at all, the, the Lock, Lock-making union? Oh yes, I've al I was always in the union. As a matter of fact er yes I, I, I joined at sixteen on the union, when I was a, a kid and er I've always believed in it and I encourage others to do the same. And when I er went to go on me own er I still wanted to keep in the union and I went down the Locksmiths' union, which was in the market place, and they said they er we couldn't, we couldn't have you in the union if you go on your own erm there's another denomination or something, was something that you'd have to join or something like that and be on your own. Well er when I er, when I er, I couldn't remember much what it was now, but whatever the union fee was, when I started on me own to be er satisfied of cos of circumstances I might need money, you know, I thought it would say the union fee was a shilling, I had to pay one and six half as much as whatever it was and I did do. Never ever been out of a union er till I retired cos I always paid these fees and er yes. You, you always felt it was er, an important thing to belong? Well er I didn't want to be out of it or, awkward or off it or anything, if it was right, and I felt that it was right, I'd adhere to that, whether or not, you follow what I mean, that's how I've lived me life, Michael, yes. Was, was Mr at the union in those days? Yes, oh yes. You see until er er he lived in er you're on a about fifty or sixty years ago you know yes. I we live in then, then up to Wellington, but he lived in you know and er Were, were there any times when the union was, when the union was quite important? When, when they helped to solve a problem at, at Can you remember any instance? Well er as I say, I've always been a union member but then when I was self-employed it was different and I kept me fees up for a, to somewhere I don't know what it was, but er when er yes, when er I was coming to come on me own and I went down the locksmith's to see about it and they said er, what did they say now, they said you couldn't do that, whatever it was, and er we'll have to do this and that and the other. And I er I had to er see a solicitor or something. Not er to pay but a bloke with knowledge to ask him what was my rights, you know and all that sort of thing. Changing from making locks. Changing from being employed to being self-employed, it's, it's a big change that is you and er, and er the union the union helped me and er told me what I could do and what I couldn't do and all that sort of thing. I had to pay some money, I just forget now, very little but er as I've said half a dozen times now, I always wanted to do what was right, you know, and I aim to do that. That's how I've er that's how I've gone through life, my lad, that is. To be absolutely, strictly theological in fact, William Booth made a little mistake in the song because God will never ever send another pentecost. It was a once off thing. And, in our English language we actually make this mistake when we talk about birthdays French, in some ways are for more sensible with language, and you only ever have one birthday, the rest of them are anniversaries of your birthday. And God has only ever, and only ever will send one pentecost, and that took place on the day of pentecost, the birthday, the birth of the church. There are, as we've been reminded, we celebrate that again today, an anniversary. I've gotta confess, I don't like th the expression Whitsun so much, I prefer, er the expression, what it really is, it is pentecost. And literally it means just fifty. That what it means, and it was fifty days se se se seven weeks, after the death and resurrection of Jesus and the disciples had been told to wait in an upper room until the Holy Spirit would descend upon them, and you've had that record read to you from acts chapter two of just what took place on that day, that birth day of the church of Jesus Christ. Course, it didn't end there. Birthdays are beginnings not endings. And, the early church grew from there. And that experience that took place on that initial day that is the birthday of the church was not just a one off thing, but as others came into the church they experienced not another pentecost, but if you like, their own pentecost. And we're gonna look at a passage in just a few moments in, it's in the eighth chapter of acts where a group of people there, they were Samaritans how they came in to experience their pentecost. But you know, for every one of us as Christians, Jesus Christ lives in us by the Holy Spirit, by his spirit. Jesus Christ, when he er, went back to heaven he went back as a fe , as a glorified, but as a physical being. That is why, the physical resurrection of Jesus is so important. There is a man in the glory. There is a man seated on the right hand of God the Father, there interceding for you and for me. It's not his spirit that's doing it, it is the same person that the disciples spoke to when they walked the streets of Palestine, it is the same person that went around healing the sick, it is the same person that was born in the, in the manger at Bethlehem, he is now, after having died, been raised again by the power of the trying God had, he is now ascended back into heaven, in glorified form, and he is there interceding, representing you and me before his father there in heaven. He is there in that local situation. And just the same as when Jesus was here on earth he was in one place, he he confined himself to a body. And he is there now in the glory, but yet we say, we invite Jesus into our heart, and he walks, and we sing the song from the, he walks and he talks, how is it that this happens if Jesus is there in heaven? Well it happens, and it's made possible because he does it by his spirit. Now there aren't two spirits, there's not the spirit of Christ, and the Holy spirit. There's not a multitude of spirits. God is a spirit! And he is the mystery of the trinity. God the Father, who is also spirit. God the son, who is also spirit. And God the Holy Spirit. And so, Jesus Christ indwells your life as a Christian, and he indwells my life as a Christian by his spirit, by the Holy Spirit. We are born again by the spirit of God. We become Christians through the work of the Holy Spirit. But the New Testament teaches us, that apart from that new birth by the spirit, and that indwelling of Jesus Christ in our lives by the spirit, there is a subsequent experience that is called receiving or being baptized as a Holy Spirit. We're gonna look at this little passage in in acts eight, which shows to us that these Samaritan chri , they were saved! They had accepted Jesus Christ as their, as their saviour, they had been born again. They were Christians. They had been baptized. And yet, there was something missing in their experience. Let me read a few verses, reading first of all from verse twelve it says,that when they believed Philip preaching the good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized men and women alike. And even Simon himself believed. And after being baptized he continued on with Philip, as he observed signs and great miracles taking place, and he was constantly amazed! This fellow Simon, you read about him in a few verses earlier, he was a, he was a magician, a so , er a sorcerer, he was the, the wi the witch doctor if you like, if he was in i i in an African situation, there he was, he was the medicine man of the town, of the area and he too believed and was converted, he was baptized, and he was amazed at the miracles that he'd seen being performed by Philip through the power of God. He was a man who was used to the supernatural but he was amazed at the things that he saw! And it says, now when the apostles, who were in Jerusalem heard that Somaria had received the word of God they sent them Peter and John, who came down and prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Spirit. For he had not yet fallen on upon any of them. They had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. They they began laying their hands on them and they were receiving the Holy Spirit. Now when Simon saw that the spirit was bestowed through the laying on of the apostles hands, he offered them much money, saying, give this authority to me as well, so that everyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit. But Peter said to him, may your silver perish with you because you thought you could obtain the gift of God without mo , with money! You have no part or portion in this matter, for your heart is not right before God. Therefore, repent of this wickedness of yours, and pray the Lord that if possible the intention of your heart may be forgiven you for I see that you are in the gaol of bitterness and in the bondage of inequity. Simon answered and said, pray to the Lord for me yourselves to that nothing of what you have said may come upon me. Philip, who was an evangelist, he had gone down to Somaria, in fact, the Holy Spirit had taken him there. If you read a few er, verses, a chapter or so earlier on, he had been speaking to one man to a er er a high official from Ethiopia, and he had been sharing with him from Isaiah chapter fifty three, the message of Jesus Christ. This Ethiopian, he had come to Jerusalem, he was a, he was a a,go , a Godly man, he was seeking after the things of God, and he had come to Jerusalem on a pilgrimage to worship God, and he was returning home, and he had got hold of the scroll that had Isaiah fifty three in it, and he was reading it, and Philip goes up to the man in the chariot, he said, do you understand what you're reading? The man says, how can I except somebody explain to me? And Philip, it says there, he says and er er,, he preached unto him Jesus showing him that Isaiah fifty three referred to Jesus Christ. And the man was er, accepted Christ as his saviour and they went down and Philip baptized in there, in in in the river. And, as they come out of the water the fa , the bible says the spirit takes Philip away and he goes down now to to so to Somaria and and he starts preaching there in Somaria a and there's this tremendous result! He sees miracles taking place! Many folk coming to know Jesus Christ the saviour. It says, there was great joy in all the city! And yet, there was still something missing. And word gets back to apostles in Jerusalem. They had heard about the blessing there, they had heard about the healing, the deliverance, the joy, yet nobody had received the Holy Spirit. They'd been baptized in water as we've already read, and yet nobody had received the Holy Spirit. Now, as we've said earlier on the Holy Spirit works in the new birth and it is through the work of the Holy Spirit that we come to know God. That we are born again. That we become Christians. Jesus, shortly before he left his disciples he tells them, it's in Mark chapter sixteen, er yes, Mark chapter sixteen, in verse seventeen, it says,these signs will accompany those who have believed in my name. They will cast out demons, they will speak with new tongues. We are born again of God's Holy Spirit . This is something that God does in in the verses earlier, Jesus says go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation, he who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved! It's the work of God's spirit. The result of the preaching of the gospel, men and women respond and are born again. They become followers of Jesus. So the Holy Spirit works, in our lives to bring us to Christ, to bring us to new birth. To bring us to become Christians. Then there is this subsequent experience which follows receiving or being filled with the Holy Spirit. Peter tells in his first apistle in chapter one, in verse twenty three, for you have been born again, not of seed which is perishable, but imperishable, that is through the living and abiding word of God. So the Holy Spirit is at work. And God's word is used in bringing us to new birth, in bringing us, er to faith in Jesus Christ. And this is what happened here in Somaria. In verse fourteen it says,when the apostles in Jerusalem that Somaria had received the word of God and we cannot become Christians without God's word. It is his word that makes us aware of our condition. That we are sinners. It is his word that makes us aware that Jesus Christ came and died for us, that God loves us. How shall they hear, the bible says, without a preacher? How will they, how will folk hear? How will they come to faith without the word of God? Faith comes by hearing and hearing the word of God. So when they hear this, the apostles back in Jerusalem, they send Peter and John down to Somaria for this special purpose that they might pray for them, that they might receive the Holy Spirit. Now why, why couldn't Philip have prayed for the people? He had brought them to faith in Jesus Christ. He had preached the gospel. God had, through him, performed miracles! Amazing miracles and signs and wonders! Why couldn't Philip pray for them? Well, of course, there's a sense in which he could easily have prayed for them, but at that moment, in that particular place, that was not God's purpose. And this is sometimes where we get a little bit, you know, hung up,a a and and when we tend to make a little bit, we make mistakes a lot. We have got to allow God to do his work in his way and in his time. And in God's plan at this particular moment i this was not Philip's function, it wasn't his job. He had fulfilled, he had discharged his mission, he had preached the gospel he had seen men and women coming to Jesus Christ, he had seen the mi mi miracles happening he had baptized those who have put faith in Jesus, and now, you see, it's not a one man show, there was, there was a leadersh , there was a team involved here. The apostles come down. Not because Philip was unable to do it, not because he was incapable of doing it, but here is God's purpose, of ma , of people working together in bringing about his will and his purposes. We've all, we've gotta remember this, that every one of us, we have a place in God's will and plan and whilst we are in that place everything is good well there's, there's still problems of course, there are still difficulties, there are still heartaches, but things are working right. The machinery is working correctly. But once we try to operate outside of that place, and we try to do somebody else's job, we try to fulfil somebody else's function, then we are in trouble! Then the thing is out of gear. Then the gears start crashing. There's not that smooth synchronized er way of going on which God purposes, and in , and intends. You see God is th ,i i is a God of order he's not a God of disorder, it's not a case of anybody doing what they like, he works according to his pattern. And who are you and I to tell God what his purpose is, and his pattern's gonna be? He is sovereign and he will work according to his will. And he's used Philip and now he i ,i i in his purpose he brings down Peter a a and John to to, to have their part i in his will and his purpose at this time. We do not all have the same ministries. We do not all have the same function within the body of Christ. And later on the apostle Paul, he elaborates on this, and he uses the picture of an ordinary body, and he says every member's not the same. We're not a, our our physical body's not made up of a multitude of hands or a multitude of feet there are feet, and the feet has one function, the hand has another. We don't hear with our hands! We hear with our ears! And every part of that body has a function. And the body is working well and fine when every part is doing their function. Now, at a pinch, I might be able to walk a step or two on my hands with my feet in the air, believe me, it's not a pretty sight! And I won't get very far. And even if I, how far I get it won't be quick because, God didn't give me hands to walk on, he gave me feet to walk on. And so, the body works better when each part is doing it's particular function. And this isn't just true of course, of our physical body, it's true of his body, the church. And oh, when we do something else, and my hands say to my feet,ha hang on, you can walk as well as they can, let's try it. They can't! And there's cra , there's chaos! There's trouble! And so it is within the body. When I say, I can do it as well as he can do it, I can do that! God says no, hang on, you're supposed to be doing this. And it's only as we fulfil our function with the body. That's why it's so important to kno , for everyone of us, to know what our ministries are. That we might be, not frustrated, you know, frustration is because, I'm not able to do what I should be doing. And oh, the frustration that can build up in our lives as Christians because we are not where we should be or doing what God purposes for us! We do not then all have the same ministries. And so, Peter, and John, they come down to Somaria. And when Simon, they they laid their hands on the folk and God in his graciousness pours out his spirit and they receive the Holy Spirit. Now when Simon saw was bestowed through the laying on of the apostles hands, he offered them money saying, give this authority to me as well so that everyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit. Simon was not trying to buy the Holy Spirit but rather the ability to impart the Holy Spirit. There's a sense in which it might sound rather strange, I think Simon was there was something in this guy that is attractive I think. He he's already opened hi up his heart to the Lord, there's a lot that he's gotta learn, there's a lot he's gotta let go of, there's a lot of his old life still there, but isn't that true of every one us? It doesn't all disappear over night. We grow in grace, we grow as we learn what God teaches us. And we're all at different stages in our pilgrimage. And so, Simon he he wants what the apostles have got. If only I could he he looks back on his life and he knows the power that he has experienced. He knows the authority that he's had in that community, he has seen supernatural things happening in his life and through him, albeit, they were not of God, but has been involved in supernatural things. And he sees something now that to him is mind blowing! He's never seen anything like this before! He has already been constantly amazed at what has taken place through Philip! And now, with Peter and John, this is just the end as far as he's concerned. He said, oh if only I had that power! If only if I had that ability! Can I acquire it? Can I have it? And he offers them money. He doesn't realize that you can't buy it. He doesn't realize that it's not up for sale. But oh, if I might have this ability to impart the Holy Spirit! But he's made this carbon thing you see, it wasn't for the the apostles couldn't it! Peter and John couldn't do it! In the New Testament there are four different words that are used to refer to a gift and the one used here means an endowment, and an endowment comes, not because of me, but it becomes because of the grace of the giver. I don't merit it. I don't, I haven't worked for it. I've done nothing worthy of receiving it. It is the grace of the giver! And the Holy Spirit, God's gracious gift to us. Just like salvation, is not because we merit it. We don't merit it! We haven't worked for it! We can't acquire it by any other means other than receiving the gift as God the gracious giver makes it available. Wanna say a bit more about that a little later on. Now, these er, Samaritans, they received the Holy Spirit, now how do we know that the Samaritans actually spoke in tongues? Because it doesn't tell you that here. It doesn't say so. But it, certainly as you read through the New Testament, the acts of the apostles, it certainly is the norm for those who received the Holy Spirit, that they spoke in other tongues. And we've already read that verse from Mark's gospel, where it says quite, Jesus himself says quite clearly that those, these signs will accompany those who believe in my , they will speak with new, with new tongues. And wherever you read of this experience happening, again, and again, you read of the folk there receiving the Holy Spirit, and speaking in in other tongues. In speaking a language they have not learned. It wasn't just on the day of pentecost. And it seems that this is the norm and there comes a time when you don't always mention the norm, you don't underline it every time, you don't refer to it every time because it is the excepted thing. It is the normal practice. And everybody was aware that this was the norm, and so you accept it and take it for granted. It is however, mentioned in most incidences, in the New Testament. But if they didn't speak with tongues how did Simon know that they had received the Holy Spirit? It wasn't because their faces suddenly lit up. It wasn't because there was some weird expression that had come over them. How on earth did he know? And the only record that we have in scripture of any evidence of folk having received the Holy Spirit was that they spoke with other tongues. There certainly was some evidence. When Simon saw that the spirit was bestowed to the laying on of the apostles hands it wasn't just something he conjured up in his imagination. There was some evidence for it. There was something that with one of his sense that he could recognize. There was a physical sign. And yet, in the New Testament there is no other sign given. There is no other physical manifestation given of the Holy, of the o , baptism of the Holy Spirit, other than that of speaking in other tongues. You see, it wasn't their joy, it wasn't just because they were exuberant, they had already i di , expressed this joy back in verse eight, at the preaching of the gospel, there was much rejoicing in the city! There was great joy in the city! So it wasn't just the joy, he was used to that, this was something over and above that. And certainly, as you read through the New Testament and the in both the acts of the apostles and the apistles, the apistles of Paul in particular, speaking in tongues goes hand in hand with receiving the Holy Spirit. Now, speaking in tongues is not the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit is not speaking with other tongues, but they go together. It's an evidence. You know, it's a little bit like a a car log book, or a registration doc document as they're called now. The log book, the registration document is not the car, but it is evidence of the ownership of the car. I've got the registration document because the car belongs to me. I can't drive the document around. And sometimes we make that mistake as though speaking in tongues was the Holy Spirit. It is but an evidence of the Holy Spirit. It is one of his gifts. One of his ministries, one of his many, many ministries, but it is one of his ministries. And if we've been filled with the Holy Spirit, then we should have the evidence to go with it. There should be the the aca station if you like, there should be the documentation, and it certainly seems in the New Testament that that is speaking with other tongues, it's not the only thing of course. You see, it's not just speaking in other tongues, there is gonna become the evidence of it as well as we grow in him. Notice also, that there is no evidence or suggestion that they had to wait for th for this baptism, for this infilling of the Holy Spirit. It is God's free gift to all. That is why I I I mentioned those mar , those remarks right at the beginning, God will never ever send another pentecost, the only people that God told to wait were those early disciples to wait in Jerusalem until the Holy Spirit came and they had to wait for ten days from the ascension of Jesus until the Holy Spirit came. There is no suggestion anywhere else in the New Testament of waiting for the Holy Spirit. He has already been given! God is not gonna give the Holy Spirit again. He has given him, and he has never withdrawn him! And so it's not a case of our waiting it's rather a case of our receiving. You see if I was to say to you, right well I am gonna go out and purchase something, I'm gonna get something and give it to you as a gift then you have got to wait until I do that. I might go out and buy it straight away, I might wait weeks, months before I acquire the particular thing to give to you as a gift, you've gotta wait on on me giving it to you. But once I have the thing and make it available, and say here is the gift that I promised it's yours, it's available, then, all you have to do is come and take it. And any waiting, any time lag is not my fault, it's not cos I've been slow in getting it, I've already got it there, it's all wrapped up it's gift wrapped with your name on it! Any time lag, any any period of waiting is because you haven't come and received it. And so it is with God's gift of the Holy Spirit. He does not suggest, there is no suggestion in the New Testament that we have got to tarry, and wait, and long and, and so on for it, it's there available to receive. The apostles came down to Somaria, they laid hands on them and they were receiving the Holy Spirit. And this is God's purpose, he is given the Holy Spirit and he has not withdrawn him. It is God's free gift to his people. Harold Carter, some of you will know of him and have heard of him who was er, a preacher within one of the early preachers within the pentecostal movement in this country, and one of their teachers, said that to teach people to wait for the Holy Spirit is nothing in the world but a combination of works, and unbelief. You see, if I were to start waiting, it means I've gotta start doing something. What am I waiting for? Am I waiting on God who is reluctant to give? God is the most generous giver in the universe! He's not reluctant to give, he's not slow in giving. Jesus used the illustration, he says, you parents, you fathers, if your children are hungry you don't mock them by giving them a stone you give them egg, you give them bread, you give them meat, you don't give them a scorpion, something to harm them, you don't mock them by giving them some, something they can't eat! How much more your Heavenly Father will he give the Holy Spirit to those who ask of him? To those who come and receive it. Notice also that Peter and John did not pray that God would give them the Holy Spirit they prayed that they might receive the Holy Spirit. You haven't gotta twist God's arm to receive his gifts. He is a generous giver! When sa , they began laying hands on them and they were receiving the Holy Spirit. In verse fifteen, when they came down they prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Spirit. Sometimes in our praying re , concerning the Holy Spirit, we say, we ask God to give, but God says hang on I've already given! You're asking me to do what I've done! Pray rather, that they might receive. And perhaps we should exercise this idea, this thought when we pray for the salvation of people. Not to pray that God will save, but rather that people will receive the gift of eternal life, because God's made it available! He's made his forgiveness freely available, the gift is there! God's gift of eternal life! And the praying is not that God will save people he's er, done all that he can to save, but rather that people will respond to his generosity and receive his gift. And so we see there in verse seventeen, that they began laying their hands on them and they were receiving the Holy Spirit. The onus was not on God doing something, but on them receiving. And you know, if we wait for God to baptize us in the Holy Spirit, can I suggest you'll wait until you die and still not know that experience. Because God has done this, he's he's made him available. The thing is for us to receive. To seek and receive that gift. The promise and the fulfilment, let me just give you a couple of verses there in John fourteen, John make er, Jesus he makes this statement to his disciples, in John fourteen, in verses sixteen and seventeen,and I will ask the Father and he will give you another helper , another word for the Holy Spirit,that he may be with you forever. This is the spirit of truth whom the world cannot receive because it does not know him, does not behold him or know him, but you know him because he abides with you and will be in you . And there,i Peter when he's preaching on the day pentecost, he says this is was has happened, God has done just that, just as Jesus promised. In acts chapter two and verse thirty two,this Jesus, God raised up again to which we are all witnesses, therefore, having been exulted to the right hand of God, and having receiving from the father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured forth this which you both see and hear . And so,le let's just conclude our our thinking and some of the things we've been looking at, a and remind ourselves that this gift of God in th the Holy Spirit, the baptism of the spirit, it is not an optional extra, it's not something for super saint, it's not something for special people, or for certain types of people, it is a, not an optional extra, it is God's purpose for every one of his children! Amen! Just as he purposed to save you, so his perfect will and, and desire is that you receive, that you are baptized in the Holy Spirit. I again, using that sermon of Peter, in acts chapter two, Peter said to them, in verse thirty eight,repent and let each of you baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, for the promise is for you and your children, and for all who will , as many as the Lord our God shall call to himself . So it is not an optional extra, it's God's purpose, it's God's desire for you and for me, and for every one of his children! Then, the gift has already been given, and God has not withdrawn it. There will come the time when he will withdraw the Holy Spirit, when he will be taken out of the world, but as long as the church of Jesus Christ is here that will not take place. So the gift has been given and has not been withdrawn. There is only one requirement of re , to receiving God's gift of the Holy Spirit and that is the requirement of being his child. The requirement of salvation. Any one who is saved, any one who is a Christian, who is a follower of Jesus Christ, who has committed their life to Christ, who has received his forgiveness, and who belongs to him, any one is ready and able to receive the Holy Spirit. There are no other qualifications! It is a gift after all. Holiness, sanctification, living of Godly life, living a pure life they're not the criteria, they're not, they're not, God requires that of us, but they are not requirements for receiving the Holy Spirit. We don't have to get to a certain stage of holiness. We don't have to get to a certain stage of sinlessness, before God will give to us the Holy Spirit. If that is the case then every one of us will wait till we die and we still won't know anything about this experience. The only qualification is that Jesus Christ has saved me and I'm following him and I belong to him. See, if it depended on what I did, if it depended on how good I was, on how ru righteous I am, well, I am righteous in Christ! So, all th , even if you wanted to make that qualification, it's there, in him, I am righteous! He is my righteousness, and that's how God sees me, through the righteousness of his son Jesus. And so we are able to receive the Holy Spirit. We can expect to speak in other tongues, as I've already mentioned from Mark sixteen, Jesus said it would happen. And as we read through the er accounts of this experience in the acts of the apostles, we find it happening again, and again, and again, and becoming obviously the norm. Now what does it do? When we receive the Holy Spir , what happens? What did it do to us? What does it do your life, to my life? Let me say, straight away, it does not make us invincible. Ha! Oh no! It doesn't make us so that satan has no power over us, so that we never sin again. It it doesn't make us invincible. Not at all! It doesn't give some special credence to our testimony. It doesn't turn us into to super soul winners. Great servants of the Lord! It doesn't do that at all. The disciples were told, before, ten days before they received the Holy Spirit that they were to be witnesses unto him. And as we mentioned last Sunday night this word witness it means a martyr, it means giving one's life. Being totally sold out for God. A living martyr for him. So what is it that God's give to, the Holy Spirit to us for? It is to empower us, it's to, to en it's to enable us it's to to er to give us that which we haven't got ourself . But what is the, the basic primary purpose of it? Well, what is God's greatest purpose for you? What is his greatest purpose in your life? It's not to make you the greatest soul winner. The greatest witness. The greatest preacher. It's not that! Because, by obvious reasons that can only happen to one person. Greatest, is the end of the line, there can't be two greatests. So, that isn't his purpose for you and for me. What is his purpose for our lives then? It's not to make us into some spiritual superstars, like some great leader of the past or present. His great purpose in your life and in my life is to reproduce in our lives, the life of Jesus Christ. Amen. Now in some folk that will take special emphasis. It will make them great soul winners. In some, it will make them great prayers. In some folk it will make them this or that, perhaps, not in every body, but for some folk it will do that, but his greatest purpose in your life and in my life is to reproduce Jesus Christ to make us like him. And ultimately, that will be the end of the line for every one us. We shall see him says John, and we shall be like him. But we will see him as he is. And that is God's greatest purpose in your life and my life. To reproduce in us the life of Jesus Christ. In our day to day living. In our service, in our thinking, in our motives, to be like him. There are some folk who will talk about the the baptism of the spirit, and the gifts of the spirit, and say, oh well, well they're all very well and good but I would rather have the fruit of the spirit. That's a ridiculous statement! You see, it's not a case of either or God's purpose is both of them. His purpose is that we might have the gifts of the spirit and develop the fruit of the spirit. And he doesn't offer them, it's not an either or package it is, I want both of them in your life! I want to see evidence of both of them, that is my purpose, that you may be like me. And he's given us certain gifts to enable us for this to happen in our lives. And one of those gifts is the gift of the Holy Spirit, that's why it's not an optional extra. It is something that each one of needs. In our day to day living, in our living, in our service for him, in our worship, in our relationships with one another, in our thinking, our motives, our our everything about us that we may be like him. Now lets just close with those words of of Peter, on the day of pentecost,it's not for other just, he says it's for you, it's for your children, and it's to as many as there are far off, right down through the centuries, as many as the Lord our God shall call . And who is he referring to then, what does he mean, shall call? Not call to be special people, to be baptized, but shall call to be his children, his followers. And so it's for you it's for me, for the person sitting beside you and behind, it is for every one of us! If we are followers of Jesus Christ then he says I want you to receive my gift. The gift of the Holy Spirit. And o on this day when the church celebrates the coming of the Holy Spirit! It's not an historical thing, it's not something we look back to, but it's something that every one of us should be looking to as a present daily experience in our life. The bi , the New Testament uses the expression, be being filled. And you and I, perhaps, we can look back to a day in our life when it was our birthday, as far as that is concerned and God filled us with his Holy Spirit, we received the gift of the Holy Spirit, we were baptized in the Holy Spirit. That's great! The danger is that we look back to that and think of that. But there's a sense in which every day has gotta be an anniversary of that, a celebration of that. Be being filled with the Holy Spirit. It wasn't yesterday's experience, it wasn't yesteryear, it wasn't something just that happened twenty, thirty, fifty years ago, it's something, Paul says, that should be happening today! Hallelujah! That same infilling. The tap has not been turned off. God is still wanting to continue filling his people, with his spirit. Well let's sing again, shall we? From the redemption hymnal, er number two hundred and thirty. Number two hundred and thirty. And this song does say that there is just one requirement from our part and that is, that we want to receive. That we are thirsty. Ho everyone that is thirsty in spirit! Ho everyone that is weary and sad come to the fountain, there's fullness in Jesus, all that you're longing for! Come and be glad and, it goes on in chorus to use yet another picture of the Holy Spirit, we've talked of one being of fire, another picture is that of water, I will pour water on him that is thirsty! I will pour floods upon the dry ground! Open your heart for the gift I am bringing. While you are seeking me I will be found . Two thirty, and let's stand to sing. Okay, if you'd like to push on. Just for those of you who have just arrived , we're actually recording this session as part of a a large spoken database which is gonna be part of a national archive and so you're being recorded for posterity. We've got a translator for Roger so they will be able to understand him. . Okay? So that you're gonna database then. Erm right! Er Martin see , sends his apologies I'll be actually chairing the meeting for him. Erm so so if you'd like to kick off. What I'd like to do is go through the minutes of the last meeting. First, for a matter of record and each other accurate, accurately recollect oh we're actually taping this. So if anybody would like to shout out if there's not an accurate well if somebody actually listened to it. Onto page one page two page three page four and five. So we all agree that's a accurate, vaguely accurate reflection of what happened? Okay. I'd like to go back to the minutes in terms of matters arising which don't arise under the the agenda items. On page one I think that we will record the . Mm! On page two I think the first thing was, was the erm results of the air conditioning on Wellesey House is still omitted. Yes. Yeah, I'm Still be waiting on them? Well we've, we've had interim or final interim reports and wishing now that Whiskers are actually gonna look at Dixons for me. Mhm. but erm we're nearly there. Okay. Put against the letters that I wrote they've all been sent out. I've actually got thirty one copies of at the moment. But it's interesting to know that a lot of the copies either must have copies, which they should have or that they know what bin it. It should be a long drawn out process. And I'm sure you'll find a way Steve. Very long, drawn out process. Mhm. With regard to any regulations on fire precautions erm department well the government is sitting on those, it's unlikely they will be out much before January of next year. As soon as I get a draft I'll I'll let you know what the perfections are. Okay fine. Now, V D U and eye tests I'll take over the main primary agenda. Just to give you an update of price. My next comment about erm concerning it's getting saving tables and the like we've actually er agreed accommodation schedule for this year and that's following fro from some changes in Customer Services o , in July. So, er to programme a new network. In terms of review of staggered hours erm the review is sort of a constant one which has not really come to head yet, in terms of actually being able to write something down, so I'm we'll be able to as soon as we, as soon I've something which we erm, come to any conclusions in terms of staggered hours. The, one about the security guard, Bill he, he's now made arrangements for the attendance a first aid er, meetings. Mm. That is, in actual fact, a bit difficult for Mm. at the moment, you can appreciate Mm, mm mm. cos if he he's on a twelve hour shift and, those meetings tend to be have been around the same sort of time, then obviously, what we've gotta be careful about is, adding any more hours Mm. onto what he's already taken on here. So that's, what we've got to understand is that . Mm. I think obviously, need to be making an appearance now than Yep. Mm. Suzanne you you're reporting Martin ? Yes. Back in the index of bulletins. Erm Erm, Paula Paula Twenty four. Yeah, erm she's nearly finished it, Paula, and and it will be issued shortly that. Mm. Okay, it goes onto the main primary agenda for most of the time. Moving onto safety, am I right? Yes. Mm. We did at erm we've actually erm sorted the issue abo , out about erm gritting the car park. It erm security are actually carrying it out and clearing the best positions to, to do so. Right. Then, er overnight. They've also issued to me the appropriate er protective equipment as well and so that er they don't you know, so I'll assume that is on the way. Good! And we've al , we've also Sorry! Sorry carry on. and also erm spoken to the police in relation to emergency evacuation in the back. The police have sor , have got a copy of our emergency evacuation procedures, at the moment we're waiting for them to return it to us. Once they've done that then we shall take the appropriate action needed. Right! Erm, if there's anything else? Well there's the,? Yeah. Right. John, did you get any reply from the police on that? Well , yeah, I spoke to them like, on the telephone, erm and basically they er and we agreed that we wouldn't take it any further so it er happened to be a police officer's view as against our view, and whilst we didn't agree with the view, er we sent enough references to make our point known anyway. So you can take it up with the, the er do whatever he felt necessary, but we left it at that. Erm, I mean the point the police have made has been addressed, Right. but the reasons why have er Okay. I'd like permission. Mm. I think that's supposed to mean something, I dunno ! Yes, it's yeah,. Well the next point is between Roger and John, I didn't understand at all so could you Good!! I think someone's already John! Maybe you'll like this one? At erm that's that big lighting is there on the basis that if the switch goes down we should have a number of telephones that still have to be available erm and we need to identify them suggested by a red telephone, or using a red telephone situated somewhere. Er, and the issue was yes, we need some for emergency use and erm we will also need proba , probably need some for business use. I have spoken Joe , and I sent a memo to a copy to Martin er, suggesting where these should be placed and how they should be dealt with. And er we're now sort of waiting to get serious enough. Yeah. Mm. Okay, so have gone down there to emphasize the importance of accidents. Erm, I'll take down the other, the main agenda cos we've we've sort of set up a special group for the . And the next point on the on the number of things that are being reported in the accident books. Erm I've in fact, become a bit of a artist on, on accident book, and between the nineteen of June ninety two and sixteen and September, er December rather there were twenty two complaints logged about sickness, diarrhoea, sore throat, sore , and headaches, from the first floor erm, of which twenty of these complaints were from females, and two were from males. And it is er It's not very popular ! Indeed not! Let's hear this out. Merely presenting it in er as analysis. I actually dissuaded er What's the proportion of females on that floor? Er, good question ! Actually noticed, with an inkling of as well. So er she was the one who pointed that fact to me. I wouldn't have worked it out, so erm Stop digging will you ! There haven't been any other erm any other areas er, of complaint with er Mm. i er in tha , in that on the second or third floors but I did, in fact, look at the first, second and third floors to get a comparison. Erm, the conditions were erm slightly different on the second floor, in the sense that there were a few, few people and a few items of equipment erm, and there is a relatively great density of staff on the first floor than I would have found . But, if we then, we then considered non air conditioning explanations erm which, I don't want to go into but there's all sorts of text that one could mention. But if we look at the air conditioning explanations we we reckon that the conditions likely to lead to sickness and, and the related illnesses that were mentioned er was, the low humidity that that we thought might er, be in the area erm, because it dries out the and enables viruses to enter the body more more easily. And the, the other one was the potentially reduce ventilation because, erm, the the insufficient air supply, air flow within that area means that the airborne viruses aren't getting shifted fast enough. And, we also face with a a certain stance there where if people blame, er, turn round to us and say there's a draft here because er, the air conditioning's working they don't wanna sit in a draft. We have, in the past, switched the air conditioning down which reduces the ventilation which means creates, makes the situation worse. Erm, there's there's two elements in relation to the air conditioning itself, er spreading viruses, and we take two preventative actions one of which is that we spray all the air conditioning ducts work quarterly with, what's known, as a virucide and I relate that to the equivalent of sticking a a toilet block in the toilet, it kills all all known airborne germs sort of thing. And the other thing is, is that all the air that is within the building is directly supplied from outside the building and is then extracted extracted to the exterior of the building. We don't actually recirculate the air within the building, so there's no business of people on the second floor giving germs to people on the first floor, and then people giving germs to people on the ground floor. So, those are the actions that we actually take with the air conditioning itself. Erm Can I just so , can I still the pick them up? Sorry! Yeah, sorry! I was looking at actions Yeah. next Yeah. but if you've got any questions on that front? Mm. A, just a question of whether the sorry, you've done all these statistics, whether actually the first floor was, seemed to be a problem? Statistically. Well ah, that's one of the things I'm leading to. Mm. This was, this was, if you like a record of the eye approach, we went round, we felt the air and erm, er made judgement, in the same that people like to be making judgements Mm. about how stuffy it is, and the like when we agreed that is was erm not as good as it could be, may I just say erm, but we haven't got any, if you like,er statistical measurement, and one of the actual points that were starting to do now is we're actually going to start reporting tu , temperature and humidity on the first, second, and third floors within G P House. And we're gonna start publishing that information. In actual fact, Can I just ask why you're ignoring us lot on the ground floor? Why? Well you've I mean got the doors open presumably! I don't know why you're getting so ! Because, I'm responding directly to accident books, and similar conditions. Ah, I see! And the conditions on the ground floor are somewhat different. Cos it's mainly men on the ground floor they don't I see, yes! complain you see! I think I've been sadistically grouped! Erm But er but erm anyway I've forgotten what I was saying now. I be , so one of the things we're gonna do is publish that information on a regular basis. Erm and we have in fact, done some tests on the first and second floor since we did this eye test and er, humidity is in fact, within the the er the Health and Safety legislation, it's within tolerance. Presumably the temperatures are too. But, one of things that we are discovering is that when people complain about drafts er, we've been switching the air conditioning up and down to balance it up to suit the individuals needs. What we may have to do is actually balance the air conditioning's needs up to suit the building, if you like, rather than individuals concerned, and then we'll have to address the individuals concerns the same, in terms of moving the desk, or moving the person if they're in a draft. Erm, and we also need obviously, to educate people there. The consequences of them wanting the drafts to be turned down. Because, if we don't actually ventilate the building then, we're not actually gonna solve the problem . Mhm. And we're gonna get hot spots and cold spots. Fine. In terms of your research on the the action book itself, or th , or the reports or whatever you said, sorry, there's nineteen on the first floor you say? I gave you a copy of the notes actually, Mark. No , no you said at the start of this . There's erm there's twenty beg your pardon, there's twenty two complaints Right. that we had in a six month period. Yeah. of which er er, that was to do with sickness, diarrhoea, sore throats, sore dizziness, headaches Right. which could be air conditioning related. Right! We don't know whether they're on, they're on the first, second or third? That's just the first floor. They were all on the first floor Mark. No complaints on the second floor, or the third floor, or the ground floor. What? Well that's fairly sig titi fa , significant innit? One of the four floors has a got a problem. Yeah. Roger, wasn't I correct in thinking that Paula was also going to look at erm not just accident reports, other sickness for the area, to actually Yeah I I did look at it from from from after Christmas and there have been no complaints at all, in the accident book up until the eighteenth of March that were of that nature. There was a Mm mm. exact Ten of that eleven people in the last two weeks, sort of, complaining about but they don't always let me know so that I can document it, that's the problem. Yeah. Where is that, still on the fou , first floor? Oh yeah. So Mainly in F two and F three rooms. It's now, like the stomach cramp rather than Mm. and it's not people that have eaten, not certainly not the restaurant , what should I say It's the food,the food! but they're not actually, having been to lunch and Yeah. I know, for a fact, one person us , never uses canteen at One? Well it's, yeah One. I mean the problem is, I mean, that the significance of the com , the sort of the numbers of those are still particularly low Mm. and trying to one was one would assume, that to a certain extent, if you've got a problem with air conditioning that we would we would have a higher, a higher incidence of erm of those sort of complaints. Mm. And we don't. No, what I'm saying is, I don't think from the accident book you're getting a true picture because people don't always report it, they'll be off several days afterwards. Right. Just don't compla , I just wondered whether that was actually Ah , yeah, again But the information we all do have does amount to something. And something Well it's something that we're prepared to actually act on here is Yeah. erm, the thing about it is is that I mean, one of we we've at the minute we've been faced with with some individuals reckoning that they have er rashes forming around the face er in a number of areas and there's an indication that, and it's nothing more than that, that it could actually be to do with the laser printers and people sitting near them in the light. People suffering from dry skin, but it's the only wo , odd one case or another that actually reported, but it we don't know how widespread these things are. We've had Wintams in But they're actually, they actually last week. made out a thermal comfort test on G P House over the last few days er, and we're now awaiting their results. And that's really to look at, the sort of the, the dry skin issues and so on? I think the thing we've gotta be careful about, is also trying to er i if we ask everybody put all their analysis as such, we could start thinking panicking or whatever Mhm. for all the wrong reasons, so we're trying to sort of pick a number of tests which will determine whether there's a problem with air conditioning and it's humidity or or er or if the temperature. And if we can pin those down, and as Roger said, we've also now, over the last few weeks co begun carrying out erm regular testing two or three times a day now on each of the floors and looking at the humidity Mm. in there. And we've gotta,wha what we'll do we'll get those set up at the sort of the appropriate working temperatures, and working humidity and then we will have to deal with people on an individual basis, if basically, they're uncomfortable because of draft or whatever it might be. I think that's what we're aiming to do now, get things set up as a standard er, operating erm, levels, having done that then we begin Mm. to isolate them. Oh sure! As I say I'm I'm not convinced that it's air conditioning erm, but then again there's more detail, more data that's required. Next twenty,. Mm. I mean, if they want,. So essentially, what you're saying is we've got the erm the sort of environmental checks in place, to help Yes indeed! track down,ho , home Yeah. home in on the Yes. But it will take time. Eventually. And I've done myself a on that reckoning, because until we've got that sorted anyway. Wintams actually er quarterly check the air within G P House, and the water within G P House. Mm. And erm to that extent we can respond very rapidly if those results aren't within the, the limits defined. And we've never had any problems in that area at all, so, to that extent. We are taking, if you like, all preventative medsi , medicine we need to take and always difficult to in fact, to pin these things down. Mm. Is there any er, other things anybody wants to ah John, did you want? No. What I was gonna suggest is that, we actually put something in the bulletin, not in the sense of, well, you know please report your illnesses kind of thing, but if we just make people aware of actually this sort of environmental control thing would be a good idea. Yeah, I think that's a fair comment. And the and the measures that we're here, that's a good idea actually! Been my major struggle for a long time now. Yeah. Mm. Mm! Mostly definite the restaurant. What have I done ! Not bad! We would do it! Okay, move on to first aid. Do we know whether we have the updated Yes we have. We have. On the erm there won't be the first aid room over the we're looking to move that to the first floor. Oh I'm sorry! Can you speak up then? Oh sorry! Have I Mm mm. Have they liaised with you? Not yet, no. Ha! That's alright then ! I gave the list to Martin at the last meeting. And attendance is much better cos I think the message is finally getting across now. Sorry! Can you er mm. Yeah , just saying that when we move the erm the first aid room to the, to the first floor from House. That's a definite is it? Erm, yes. I erm as much as anything else so that we don't block a fire exit on the gro , on, in the basement. Mm. Mm. Have you seen the timetable for that. Er no, not yet. I'm sure you'll tell us er Yeah. Okay, fire? Mm. Involving the fire, the exit th there, we actually talked about er, issuing a memo to all the branches and telling them there ought not be electrical equipment on overnight. Mhm. I counted something like and at the moment it appertains just to the telephone system and regard to the enquiry system. And but, very shortly the branches are gonna be getting some more appropriate , and it's gonna be a lot more that needs to be se sort of kept on overnight. Mm. But it might be more appropriate to wait until nearer the time to send a memo, I don't know. Erm on the audit side both Karen and I have been round to all the branches in order to deal with our old equipment. Erm on October ninety four I'll be, guess there won't be any old prices in the . You've been round to all the branches? Yeah. It's on, on a different project but we were Mm. incorporating that on the way round. With regard to leaving electrical equipment on overnight, Mark, erm once or twice be nice if you already be bought it to my attention that people are leaving things on erm, now, when we've had this discussion that most of these items are safe. But erm I th they are worried certainly, one or two of them are worried, but er some of this equipment is left on, and left on unnecessarily and we ought to be encouraging people to switch off what isn't That's right. doesn't have to be left on overnight. Erm, sort of a general memo about the, just er literally good housekeeping if nothing else. If you're not using the equipment or you don't need to use the equipment overnight then please turn it off. Mm. Er Presumably you get some card license installed, so mind you, you'd the outcome! Erm, yes I think, I think, you know, immediately you're thinking of doing it the branches and obviously you're running po , pretty big in Mm. the way I see it, anyway, you know, if there are things that are meant to be left on . Er, as far the these building are concerned I think your point is valid, I mean, I think probably printers, I think that you suggest are left on because you never know when it'll be to. Er, only got one persons Assume the responsibility? But, other than that, yeah I think you're right. Presumably with an arrow, you have to Mark, Mark. I think there are some things Mark that have to be left on Mm. as an necessity there for all these working overnight. But those that aren't erm should be switched off and whether there's a way Mm. of sort of having some kind Perhaps I'll , perhaps I'll liaise with Chris Yeah. through his team and see how it, see if there's Yeah. anything you also probably need to liaise with erm probably with Mike Yeah. and you know, find out what they're doing, but general . I've gotta liaise with the information centre in the computer centre tomorrow see if there's any guidelines we could probably use. There may be some kind of notice on them that says, you know, these machines should not be switched and then everything would be switched off. Mhm. If they came round Mm. I mean, that's the sort of thing. It's Yeah, our ones' actually got something on, especially one of the machines it's got little spots across the screen saying do not . Do not switch off. Switch off. Yeah! But I mean Yeah. so they wouldn't switch it off. But are others Still, still switch off! Oh do they? But they're very ! Okay, fine! Okay. Onto any other business. Ah sorry! Have you done the, done the agenda? Mm. Finished that. I think Pa Paula on the 's information. Er she said it was done. And she did check, and we weren't telling them, no we did? Mm. Do you think it's a representative coming to this meeting rather than just simply think they actually go off site the information? in places like I presume , I presume that they, they'd be the only one. Oh right! Yes. The th Ye Yep! The collapsing chair is erm is a mystery! And it's not just a mystery to me, but a mystery to the individual I spoke to. Er the chair being the offender, given the chair that collapsed underneath her er, she couldn't, or she couldn't explain to me how the chair managed to collapse underneath her! So, I'm afraid I wasn't able to do a great to do a great deal more on that. The only thing I would say is, is that we're looking to er start in the next quarter various plans for maintenance routines one of which will be o , actually on furniture. Er, there's a number of issues that will start cropping up with furniture fairly soon. And, it's things like that I ne , hope and anticipate that we can actually . I can only guess that for erm some reason the bolts on the back of the chair fell off, or came lose and when she sat on it she leaned on the back, in an unusual position and fell through! Mm mm. Mhm. Okay. Let's go onto COSHE regulations. We've had a meeting on COSHE and we've sort of put the erm the revisions of COSHE into, into action. Basically this is updating the original COSHE, COSHE re register. And Katie is the only one that sent a reply back! That's very prompt of you Katie! Gold star! Okay, point taken! I don't think the date was due actually was, wasn't it? No, it's not yet. It's erm, the week Yeah. of let's look in my diary. If ever that's forgotten, once that's done, again it will be erm the up-to-date part of the COSHE. And the fire and train records, I'm not sure where . Well, the meeting that we're doing, all branch Mm. probably Mm. . And I'll take that management one. No , er dust mites? Yeah, er can I go back to this point before Mm mm. about erm I've actually got some some cleansing wipes for, for Mhm. I was actually going to give to you Sue, so that you could test them but I understand you've already got some new ones? Yeah. You're talking about to send some aren't you? Yeah. I'll, I'll drop that off with you today later on. Fine. What exactly is the intention i in the ? Well, we'll see how much instigated first. Are they not in Cos they won't be used to just cleaning telephones up like that one! Foot and mouth ! Well how many joint telephones are there? Sorry? How many joint telephones can you have? There seem to be a number in Client Services. Yeah. Mm. In some teams there's It's obviously about four Oh! people share a phone. Yeah. Mm. Sorry? That's what I used to do with them! Yes. Now that you've gone. Well I'll talk to Sue about that one! Right, Sue's gonna have two goes next time. Still haven't told me what I've gotta do with them! We could try it on our floor couldn't we? Yeah. See how we get on. Mm. What exactly are you trying? That the people complaining they so sore throats, sickness and diarrhoea! That's exactly what been the problem down there. Oh! Oh it's good money telephones! You can go and have a look. Especially where those people are passing the germs down the telephone! It's a good idea, but I don't really see what you're actually sort of measuring. Have been Well I wasn't here, so I won't take any of the blame for this at all! It's a really good job whether yo sa sa say so or not! It could be sort of spread throughout the company. May maybe a hygiene requirement ? What, sickness and diarrhoea? It's to provide, to provide people with the opportunity use the wipes if they require as a safety precaution. Oh we'll sort it out anyway, Sue shall we? Right! On the dust mites On the dust mites, yeah. Erm the cleaning of the carpets on the first and second floors erm they obviously fumigate them erm, but we don't do the dry clean like we do the carpets over here. Er, what we'll do is spray the carpets erm quarterly. Erm one of the problems that we've been facing in the past, certainly, in G P House is the amount of stuff that's on the floor and therefore we haven't actually been able to tackle these things very effectively. Erm but one of the things that I am doing is over the next quarter with, various people begin to review the cleaning schedules of what they actually do, whether we clean them on a on a more frequent basis rather than just responding that particular area. Get in the dust busters couldn't you for this one! There's actually another complaint this morning I've had on the first floor of G P House. It's only the second offence according to the last What's wrong with this first floor? I mean when they gonna It's my wing as well! Erm Militants in there! so I'll be coming to see you. Okay. Okay, fine. Okay. If we move on to the main agenda. For the sake of this . Oh! Erm, as I mentioned with the group visitors we've started up a branch action group fo specifically focused on the sort of branch issues. Aren't we just leaving that till last? This is basically to ensure that the, the branches are complying er to legislations. Er, we're looking at, to whether the branch and the manager, sort of be take a more active role including the the branch sector. Because at the moment there's no one looking at health and safety on day to day basis and in any of the branches. There's just point if anyone, someone from head office goes in. Mm. And what this actually came out on was this overall health and safety assessment that we've been doing for G P erm, we've actually just filed that overall group focused on the the branches as a potential issue and I know it's been very su su successful on a number of times. What we try do and is actually sort of focus in on the branches so that so, to try and get try and get all the strains together. What are the issues are we dealing with ? And we've had one meeting be , between, just really detailed some of the, some of the issues that we find and focus on them a bit more. Mm. Erm mm, the other thing I was gonna mention which is, which we've sort of really gone through is the air conditioning and that we're actually sort o , we are doing the monitoring of the environment and all, and have had Wi Wintams in erm doing special exercises for us. Er, I think we should look for through in the terms of the bulletin. The only thing for me is really just to bring you up-to-date in terms of the V D U project and where we are with that. Erm so, if you remember this is the reassessment of work stations. Erm,the particular one I'm focusing on here is sort of the, the vision screening part of it cos the assessment of work stations is gonna be a longer term thing, we're going back to pre where they've actually sort of ticked the various boxes on the sheets and said this is like that and so we are collating that information currently. But, in terms of the the actual vision screening itself erm, we've iden , those people who've been identified as V D U, V D U users' we've had about five hundred and fifty replies to that,from the V D U, V D U, users'. Erm, of that five hundred and fifty approximately four hundred have requested eye tests or vision screen tests, sorry! Erm, we've, we've had about approximately seventy tests take so , taken place so far. I don't know an anybody's in this group's partaking in this? But it's basically down on the down on the first floor, we've set aside a a room which erm the people from the Occupational Health Centre here in Harlow, come up and do vision screening for us on a regular basis they come when do they come? Once a week or Erm, it's once a week, but I think they're coming in the they're here twice this week er, and I think, it's as and when they can, so if it's more than once a week then they will be here. Yep. Erm,right! So, of the er, er yeah, of the people who were identified as being users', V D U users' we've had about eight percent of the replies have actually been returned, so we are chasing some. Mm. Some outstanding ones. Yo , for your own information, as th , say health and safety group, in terms of people who ha , who undertake vision screening and then get referred on from a, for a full full eye tests it's usually around Mm. between sort of two and four percent tend to get referred on. Erm, and we have had , I think about four or five people who are currently being referred on Mhm. er, in terms of eye tests. And what happens to them, again, through the Occupational Health Centre,th they arra arrange for an optician to give them a full, full eye test and then we get a report back on that situation. I've, certainly had no a ,excuse me, no adverse comments back in terms the vision screening etcetera, itself as er, people have sort of responded to it seems to have had a so something which will be quite good sort of go going along in the right spirit. Have you any feedback anyone at all? Have you ? No, not yet. Mm. a report from vision screening. Okay. Though it not be for a safety to anybody else in terms of operations, I think . I had erm those, well it's actually been reported in the accident book, erm a girl tripped, and Ted, Mick, John, and Roger Ah yes! Yes! are aware of this. Erm, the wires have clipped up now. She fell and hit her head, or something. Erm, you say that they're going to tidied in July,thi this year Erm, yes. when the moves take place? Not all of them, no! . depends when it happens, I mean we we're still waiting to find out where some of the changes, erm in terms of layouts and the like are gonna be done. Erm, but following on from that, wherever we change layouts now we try and be very specific about organizing the cable management up front and, so that they don't present any hassles. Erm, in the Customer Services area once we've seen what changes Customer Service wish to make during this year that they myself and Roger and gonna find that out, hopefully, tomorrow, erm, then we'll be more specific about the areas that we have to address on th , the first and second floor. We could, that's one of our biggest areas anyway erm and if P D er, remains a problem, or isn't gonna be addressed as far as the changes I've been told since , I was told yesterday then that they wouldn't be it's in which case then we'll address Mm. that erm before the other moves take place. I , cos I know our people, and Ted have are reluctant, they think it's a danger to sit there, the wires are coming down already! Erm Th , this is the cable wires is it? Mm. Er Oh! Yes it is. Erm , the cables? I, I can't comment specifically to that. Er, we'll have to take that as it goes. Se I send somebody up there and they cou , you know, put them up as best they could. Erm cabling is a problem on most of the first floor Mm. because it's the one area of G P House where there is a co wide scale movements take place. Mm. But there is. But you said , when we do a move, we do try to , you know, where we can Mm. by and tidy the cabling as well. And there was a memo to John from yourself, tenth of Jan , that my manager has passed to me, it said you'd given two options that you could go in on Saturday and erm That's alright, I mean also that tha , that's, that's the activity that we're trying to sort of resume erm That's the main erm thing. but that comes after any moves that I'm making because clearly, they need somebody that can be So do you know what the price is going be? sort of, to put it, I'm gonna be is that as from tomorrow we will have identified what erm desking and so on will be moved during the reorganization erm, and obviously any of the desking that isn't gonna be moved until the organization, we'll be tidying up the cables. The others, and that maybe just a question of tying them up and Mhm. making sure they're safe, even though they'll still be, sort of, visually erm they'll be seen, erm they'll be actually tidied on the desk. But er, the others, anything that isn't gonna be changed where the cabling is untidy, is dangerous, will have to picked up before that. Right! And that's the sort of thing that we will be identifying as from tomorrow. Tomorrow. Then we'll be putting it back there, on exactly how and when action ca can Oh, okay. be addressed, hopefully. Yeah. It is, it is a problem, it's not necessarily something that can be addressed wi with a few cable ties, cos sometimes tying the cables together make a more of a danger than Yeah. leaving them loose. Because, you know like if people can get a foot caught round them, if they're individual they they come out Mm. and sort of those, will get, people trip over. Mm. Okay. Well clearly, we need to you know, the long term moves which we you're obviously taking of in terms of the long running programmes is fine. But, I think once you've decided to schedule it there's areas we still look at, and the managers are saying this looks dangerous, then we have to . Yes, in hand, yes it seems Mm, yes I think we've done that. specific areas That's actually been identified and that's, that's the route we're taking on. Right! What else? Aha. I see. now, is it? Erm, yes. Any other safety? We'll move onto the accident books, any things, or any issues that anybody's seen from the reports action? Erm, something came up yesterday i in the catering unit found out that erm a first-aider in area, area hadn't actually been reporting all minor accidents, erm, and I think she felt perhaps they were a bit too minor to report. Erm, I'm wondering maybe due to the small amount of incidents actually in accident book, whether this is perhaps a general trend going on throughout? I did speak to Paula yesterday, and she said she was gonna speak to you Suzanne Mm. about bringing it up in the next erm meeting. I was gonna say the same to you. Yeah. But erm Generally , I I enter in the accident book if I give any treatment. Erm had she be giving treatment? Yeah. Should do, I think. I think she felt wi , you know, some of them are sort of like, a bit unimportant. She's now erm, aware of the situation. Mm. But erm I was just concerned you know, that Mm. perhaps it it might be going on Mm. Right, well I think elsewhere. it's only if you can reinforce it You know, there's that and then you can also within the first-aiders and the, and obviously to try and try and drive it to them on that issue. Well I did wanna follow this up with some other items of a person and need to write how important it was, the little ones in the accident book, but looking in the erm erm the handbook for the company it says that an accident form should be filled in and Mm. handed to the Office Services Manager, so, that's not the procedure we follow at the moment is it? No. Because I mean, I haven't seen an accident No. form. No. So it's, what is the procedure? Is there a written procedure that says if you deal with it then put it in the accident book? Say, the first-aider's off sick Mhm. who's responsibility is it then? Yeah, okay. Well the procedure is anything, that's if there's an accident which does require treatment from the first-aiders, I mean then I think we should send it off don't you? So that means that what we've had forms being filled in? Yeah. Mm. I mean, in terms of the new issue of the handbook which is coming out in due course , that's clarified Oh right! and I think it was one of things which never really took off in terms of the accident Mm. book. Well What I was just looking for a reference for it, you know. in terms of what should be reported and what shouldn't be? Yeah. Cos one of the things that I said, you know, just when I was looking through the last five or six months is that it did seem er, to be inconsistent in terms of certain areas like the first floor, there's an awful lot of reporting going on but, there was very little from the other, from the other areas. Erm I I, I think the same is the case was that, you know Mm. Is there one book per floor? Is that how it was? Is it one Okay. book per floor, is that how it works or Just one book pe per first-aid room I think. So we've just got one book in the whole building. Is that right? As far I know, yeah. Yeah that's right. That's a problem. Maybe they can't find the book. Yeah. Well that's probably a good point actually really once you've only got a And course, we have more accidents in the kitchen ! Right! No, no, I wasn't I wasn't trying to ! Yes, but ! Yes, there are! Oh well, you might as well say that! Yep? I don't mind. Okay, well let's perhaps look into that see whether.. there's a, a more appropriate way. Cos I know the principle used to be that is er, it was in the first aid room cos that's where all the first aid treatments When you are based. But then if there's no form to remind somebody they'll fill it in the accident Yeah. book, then it's gonna get forgo , forgotten from one day to the next. I think that's what happened with this particular person as well. Because she's not been going to the first aid room. She's not been going Yeah. there. So, she's writing them down, and then forgotten about them. Yeah. Okay, fine! Well then look at that to see if there's a more appropriate way of doing it. Shall I speak to Paula about that then? Yeah. Paula, and perhaps we'll bring it up in a first aid . Get that easily. Well that was another thing, one of the new first-aiders we've got, erm didn't know where the accident book was and I thought was quite an important thing that would probably have been brought up Yes. at, at the initial training. So Who's that? Debbie . Ah yes! Okay. You know what I mean, that is down to the individual really is that er that they should actually find out and i , that needs to be highlighted to all Mm. of them. Well if there's only one for each building then Well perhaps when each new first-aider qualifies they get like an induction pack or something. Get a tour or Mm. something ! Yeah. Mm mm. Are you intending approaching health and safety in clients in the Employee Handbook? Er, yeah, and we're looking . Right. Is it gonna very released t to everyone? Aha. In due course. Mm. Mm. The section on health and safety could be could be quite large especially in the light of further installation. Yeah, we've actually er, way we've designed is that erm, it's actually a sort of , it's inserted in the ham handbook itself as actually a, sort of separate removal section so they can Aha. use it sort of separately . Okay. Well, in terms of the Literally I think the only I said is the thing we get from the branches. Mm. Well I think that well needs a I think one of the things we discussed in the branch action group meeting is actually, weren't quite sure what the cos we'd been sending out for quite less than ten of the branches because to do something to them which was mm apparently lots of them in but erm well they keep disappearing so that the what we've been talking about is to try and get some points erm health and safety station within the branch, which actually just has all this stuff for it. At least everybody knows where to go and it's all there an but obviously that has some difficulty in terms of where to locate it and where to . That's something to look at . Okay. In terms of actual accidents themselves, anybody raising things or anything? I did erm, mention, I think on one of them which was the erm Tim , this is the upstairs, I did actually mention that when I saw it to to Roger. He was very heroic, but erm you probably did address Yes. that one. Yeah. Okay. If there's nothing, apart from that we can move onto first aid. Suzanne anything? Not really, no No. this time. Any other issues in terms of first aid, Mark ? about first aid improving the Right. Are we i in terms of the first, first-aider availability does that tend to work? Okay, in terms of people are aware that they can their first ai , where they can get first aid and don't tend to have any reports these days. Well I think the erm you said there was like a plan on each notice board with first-aiders and fire wardens on each floor Mm. but they look a bit out of date at the moment. Mm. They're constantly Mm. But certainly when we first went into first aid and we used to get regular calls in personnel all about, oh where's the first aid ? But since it happened, in these days No. people seem to finding the sort of first-aider. I think we've got quite an extensive coverage now. Okay. Right, if we move onto fire. Who's in charge of fire? Jonathan! What, you want one? I've got nothing other,I don't know whether anybody's aware of what went on last Wednesday and probably that, I mean there could have been there was a, sort of a, a cable that, a mains cable that heated up and started smoking and er, we had to deal with that. But erm, fortunately it didn't heat up, but we're looking at erm, it didn't catch fire, but we're looking at er er, some safety features that we may actually have to install in the plant room to erm to actually identify these these problems er, somewhat earlier. It was just happened to be spotted by Richard , fortunately, whilst he was erm, between jobs and actually being up a steps, walked in a saw the smoke coming out of one of the er, main switch areas. At that stage he didn't seem to have any effect on anything in terms of erm, alerting anybody, so erm we need to er, we need to deal with that with more action than we ha have at the moment. Mm. Actually, I I think you're all aware of, that we caused some number of issues on that Wednesday afternoon and for that half of our systems. I suppose it erm did widen so , the the wider view on that is at that it is important that we carry out the possible appliance testing on a regular basis. This, this could have led, led to a very nasty electrical fire! Erm and, to that extent, I'll reiterate, that we are in fact working our way through all of the the electrical equipment in the building in terms of appliance testing and the like. We're also, Mark, reviewing our preventative, our maintenance systems erm, and we may , excuse me! We may well be extending the number of er shut downs that we over the weekend so that we can carry out more extensive maintenance on the electrical systems around the organization. Certainly bits that look pretty interesting I should imagine and a report on the end of the day with a number of er proposals and actions for er hopefully, preventing this happening again. Mm. I think it just erm also demonstrates our dependence on the bigger systems in that regard. Or we tend to Yes it does! grind to a halt ! But not , but not as much as on the electrical systems. Well no! Mm. I would think Mark knows that! Yeah , I was er being naive and thinking of them, in the same capacity actually Norman, though I'm not terribly precise in my technical technical . Okay. Good! Any other On that point I've got Yes. quite a few, dare I start with Mhm. them? Erm hiding them from ! Erm apparently there was a training course held on the twenty eighth of Jan erm the procedures were actually out of date at that time, and Mike on security? Is he the head the fire The deputy. Mike is, yeah. the deputy , he's actually going to He's issue erm the floor plans erm and procedures to everyone which they still haven't received. Erm Will that be, will that please? I don't really know who yo to direct to cos do the fire marshals not meet regularly? Only to try and Probably we should organize it. I think they, no. Yeah. Erm another thing on the erm fire warden training it was stated the company did not want erm, fire wardens to use the equipment around the building, whereas the notices say actually states, erm, attack fire if possible with appliances provided without taking personal risk. Erm, but the training contradicted that and said that they they showed them how they should be used, but, but they shouldn't tackle a fire and they Mhm. wanted to know which Mm. they should be doing. Mm. Ya. Mhm. Yeah. Like she says I think the position is exes effectively what we're trying to reinforce is that we don't want any heros Mm. in a sense of leaping into the flames and trying to battle with it. Erm, but obviously if somebody can take some assertive action that stops the fire Yeah. down and that's a difficult that's a judgement that have to make. And clearly, in terms of the fires as a particular the rationale for them being there is to can get out of the building, which is why Mm. the position of our doors are attached to the system is the fire exit's actually blocked, by fire and that's their only exit at least you got some opportunity to . You was quite right. You said I can do with some clarification which we seek to do. Erm So, are the fire appliances only supposed to be used by the by the wardens then? Mm. Is that not sort of I mean, I wasn't aware that anybody wasn't supposed to pick up a fire appliance or not. Again, it's a similar sort of issue which is it's it is difficult to put across that if you notice you haven't got a fire warden there and that's your only Right. exit, then you use the fire fire, fire extinguisher. Though obviously one of the things that you worry about with fire extinguishers are you using the right one with the correct Mm. sort of fire? Erm, you can cause as much, or more damage to yourself or equipment in ter , by using the wrong one. Service is done Right, I mean the point I was making, I don't think there's anywhere where you have said positively don't use a fire extinguisher No it's in the event of bomb. Mm. I I think it would be crazy to actually say that positively. I mean people it is question of how you say you well enough that Aha. people do understand that there ar ,if there's a problem and you can do something about it without being a hero, as Mark said then something should be done. Erm but how you legislate for common sense and so on Mm. I know that looking for a Purple Heart, or V C, erm are but I do believe it needs to be it needs to be clarified. Mm. Okay, well I will se , I'll I'll seek to clarify tha to be able to join that to er sort of form of words. Erm, something that was actually also raised before and after working hours, erm, there was a fire evacuation, I think, in October about to quarter nine Mm. erm In G P House? Yep. which was, complete chaos apparently! All rushing around Mm. erm That's happened. what are the procedures then if fire wardens aren't there? I mean, check it, as in for checking buildings and erm I didn't think it was chaos! I thought it was quite well organized considering. Apart from all the people didn't come out. Half the, yes Did they not? yes, that was the main thing! The ones that I saw were. Yeah. Did the alarms ! Did the alarms actually keep ringing? Actually organized it . Yeah. So they weren't switched off half way through? Yeah? They kept going? Yes, they did, definitely. For some time. Right! Yeah. It's a good point there! Develop a procedure for out of hours then. And something that was suggested by fire wardens, that they could do a five or ten minute erm presentation and could go round each floor to make people aware that they are the fire wardens, why we have to evacuate and the importance erm Mm. It's crafty and just issue memos Mm. which you can. They've erm volunteers to see if you can show this committee the presentation for the . Aha. Is it actually ? Is that the sort of the general feeling towards Erm, Bevan fire? and Mark, he said it was suggested, and it was a general feeling that that would be more I haven't said that! useful than issuing memos. Oh yes! That's er, true. Gold star! That's it. Thank you. Actually, that out of hours issue probably pertains to first aid treatment as well doesn't it? Yeah. Yeah. Perhaps we ought to make people aware that, just coming along security isn't . Mm. Yes. Mm. Erm Mm. That's a good point! I could if I just pick up one other point about you know, like the the non-standard times, or the non-standard occasions when we do fire evacuations currently er, I don't know where we think the fire is but we all troop out via our normal fire exits and to our normal assembly ports erm, it maybe men , maybe an idea to do some fire evacuations where we stayed where the fire actually was and people have got to take other other routes to evacuate the building. Mhm. Mm. Yeah, I think we can probably try blocking exit next and see what happens! And not on the as well! Well I'm a da no, sorry! I did get and proved the place I've been going that actually more accidents due to blocking and you sort of back up the stairs with you Yeah. yeah and create accidents but erm well perhaps we could do it in a sort of floor by floor actually this Yes. just your rear exits are blocked off find more routes you know you can take, of course, without much potential danger. Okay. So, we'll do some thinking about that then. We Wha also, Mark, need to able to bring out most of the computer people as well. Erm, and I know we tend to make allowances for the operations It's in their contract that is, if they get out They go , they gotta hold especially and try and get through ! Like the Captain of the ship. But I do believe that we ought to be doing more in terms of making sure they do come out erm you know i , we know it's only a a training exercise even though you leave one or two in there, but I think we ought Mm. to be drawing most of those people out. Mm. Can we do a separate And we we could do a separate exercise then couldn't we? We could, but I dunno how realistic it would be, I mean if there was, oh obviously it'll more realistic than doing nothing. Mm. But er we need to be dragging those out at the same time as we're dragging everybody else out. If it were real, it would happen. And I just feel, you know, that er So I think it's part of the the early morning set up and we were actually gonna talk to Steve weren't we, about That's right. About what they actually bother Yeah. coming out for? Yeah. And er Yeah , I think you ought to take that up with Steve, cos I don't see why you should getting, taking people No. out on the machines Oh no! I mean a lot well afterwards of people there's nothing apparent with them, apparent, then the machine would be er, would be That's right. And the machine can wait another ten, about ten minutes Well, and that's a serious Course not. and I think we've gotta reas , yeah lus , leave it to Steve. Mm. Okay. You gonna pick that up with Steve? Yeah, I'll do that. Mm. Is the fire wardens sort of aware you know, which way they're meant to go if their, their exits they would normally are used are blocked? I mean, shouldn't we sort of going well that area you That start off with? I think that was th , one of the things raised, the procedures and floor plans Mhm. and the exits Mm. and weren't actually er, correct, and some Mm mm. weren't now being used so, I think once that's out of the way. So, sorry, say it again! They will? The floor plans that they were actually shown on their training course were out of date for the procedures, so that's what my whatever, erm security We don't actually know but we are but we said Oh right. we're recor , addressing that once. Yeah. That's a point to what we are addressing and what we aren't. That's a very good point! With exactly the same one, we Mm. our floor plan is, because of the number of moves and so on we've gotta have Oh, this is where desk plan I'll wor , I'll work out the Yeah. with the exit? Yeah. And all the exits are clearing off? All the exits at the moment. Yes they are. Erm Yeah. nothing's changed there. And we whenever we do layouts now as well we insure that all fire exits are kept to a minimum of one and half metres wide, er, in terms of main access ways. And, we're becoming more and more stringent on where people pile boxes and other various items of rubbish. Erm but we need to get some plans up together. I don't really want to have to do too many commit myself till the ammunition's here, but we are in fact, actually er, addressing this very specific issue. Fe feel vulnerable for another, a number of reasons Mark in terms of updated floor plans Mm. and yes, we're doing something Mm. to Cos I was asking, for a number of reasons I was asking for floor plans for our , you see. Didn't seem to be there. I'll ask for information Norman. Yeah. I'm having trouble with my zip today! Anyway thought that'd be the general issue! Yep. Can we go onto computer design then? Oh ! While you've got them out! No! It was just someone got one We got the same taste in ! Cheeky sod! Well, you see! You can get him some nice We well if we don't get the package if Yeah. we get one Mark we're going to get one for the right reasons indeed. There's a CAD system in your end isn't there? Yes there is. Yeah, it's a very good one. We use it all the time. Well Yeah. We've already beaten them. Yeah, we have looked at, but erm Very good part of the investigation. distributing one But they won't share, you know what they're like in my team it's, it's Oh you don't mean it! Told him you can use our plotter any Erm time you like. It's it's hold on a minute. Gee whizz! One other thing is just to chase up procedures we're going to put on the passes for attendants and visitors and that still hasn't been done. And I've spoken to Paula since the last meeting and and chase it but it still hasn't been Right. Okay. We, we put together some sort of words on anyway, we've er Yeah. But, not very far. Almost Yeah. You gave us five pages to get in one! I gave you five pages, yeah but It is now a hell of a lot less! I hope we can do other things. That's right. Did a good a trade in restaurant. Okay. Good! May I make a, a separate point Yeah. that does link in with that point that Dianne made? Erm me , myself and Steve are currently working on er, health and safety for contractors coming on site purpose to work etcetera and one of reasons why well he than ever before on this,visi visitor's information when they're on site on the back of cars it would, it would have been a nice thing to do would have been to have joined the whole lot together. Erm and, anyway, on the health and safety contractors on site thing Stuart has actually read the documentation and he's quite happy with it, and we're waiting for you and Martin to feed back as well on it. Right. Mm! Well I was getting you back for one! Yeah ! Why not! Once we've done that perhaps we can sit this particular lay info information on the back of the card so we're covering Excellent! all visitors. Mm. Yep. Okay. Right. Anything on fire from anybody else? Okay. Let's move on to any other business. I've just got something well I'll take over. Mm. Right, a little Erm note here. I don't know if I was the only one that didn't receive the check list? I mean, has, has anyone else got these wo , it's off the last bulletin. Erm the check list that I think Des completes is gonna go to Adees and Oh right. there's the Health and Safety Committee. Has anyone else received it? No I haven't. No. of our officers who work in children's homes, we didn't sack anybody who was at the front line of s services and we certainly didn't expect other people to pay for our circus tickets. didn't sack anybody We actually believe that the people of would prefer prefer their money spending on the environment and front end services. And we actually believe that it's the individual's power to choose. What is now worrying us extremely about Local Government in Britain, in any Labour Authority, which is spreading now like a cancer in , that officers are not trusted now to even take the sick list of decisions so there has to be another sub-committee. I mean, I'm not that rude as to say that's for the payment of allowances, but some people may say that. Officers are paid to implement you can speak in a second. Officers are paid to implement our policies. They're certainly not paid to write Councillor press releases here here at least even I never stooped to sending a circular round Community and Environment saying we do not want the danger of officers actually talking to the public and if there's any credit, Councillor got to have it. The power to choose, the power to choose, well if the power to choose in politics is about the Labour Party choosing their own candidate for the by-election and then the National Party replacing that candidate, well that's a Party I don't want to be a party to and that's nothing that we would ever stoop to We've got to make a quite simple decision. We believe as a Party that the power of this county be individual, that he or she should have the power to choose. Not like the Labour Party, that we the Labour Party have the power to choose that you don't have the right to own. Councillor your says three consecutive Governments, Conservative Governments in Britain have striven to give power to the people, the right to choose and the right to own. Let's just have a look at what you've actually achieved. Let's look at your performance. And what a performance. It's worthy of an oscar. This Government has managed to combine the worst qualities of scrooge, Shylock and Genghis khan. The Tory manifesto of 1983 declared, we have a goal. It finished up it turned out to be an own goal. Their statement in their manifesto says, we promise that we will make Britain the best housed nation in Europe. That was 1983. 1988 a Government report declared there was a million houses in Britain unfit for human habitation. We spend less than most of the other European countries on housing. Public sector housing investment has been cut by seventy percent. Some choice. This Government has decimated the housing stock of this country and the Tories in this Chamber dare to talk about the right to choose and the power to buy. And Councillor talked about the resol the question County Council about the Right to Buy and why have a number of houses been sold gone down. Two simple answers, one they're not there and B, people can't afford them. I remind that we put in a housing investment bid for a hundred and twelve million pounds and were given the right to buy thirteen million. Let's talk about the choice of the people that're homeless. Why are there so many people homeless? I'll tell you why. It's because of the inhumane way that this Government treats people who experience financial problems of any kind and those other problems associated with those matters. This Government has no time at all for the poor and even less time for people who become poor as a result of their savage policies, the policies which cause high interest rates, rising unemployment and all because of it's obsession with inflation. Let's look at house building, and you want to sell houses. Well, if you want to sell houses, why have all the major building companies in this country announced the largest cuts in profits this decade? Quite simply, because people cannot afford to buy them. Public sector housing, housing associations, building has been cut by two thirds. Did you give the building companies the choice? Is that what you mean about choice? Give a choice of losing, like did, two hundred million pound. That's some choice under a Tory Government. The Tories lied that we obstruct Council house sales. What's the point of advertising a porsche if you don't have one? Where are all the houses to sell? Simply they're not there. We, as a Council, have sold fourteen and a half thousand, with no facilities to build. The Labour Government will put that right. But where's choice there? Where is the individuals' right to own? Let's talk about the plight of families. What's gonna be the case? Because if we continue with the housing stock that we've got, then families living in high rise flats are never ever gonna have the opportunity to own their own house with a garden so the children can play. What choice is that? What choice have you given to the hundred thousand people, hundred thousand people, whose mortgages have been repossessed, who have been made homeless by the policies of your Government? That's some choice. What choice have you given to the seventy five families that tonight are in bed and breakfast in this city with children? What choice have they got? What choice are you giving the nine and a half thousand people on our Council waiting list? And what chance have they got of getting a house? If I lived in ,,,, ten years waiting list, ten years waiting list to have the opportunity, if there is an opportunity to come, to own or get a three bedroomed house. That's some choice. It's costing half a million pounds this year to pay for bed and breakfast. How illogical it is. Half a million pounds, if we were to be given the resources, would enable us, debt charge wise, to build two hundred and fifty family houses. What an illogical society it is, and what choice have we got? I'll tell the people of who has a real choice. It's the privileged few. The poor or less well off who cannot afford private health and pay school fees. That's what choice means to people. Tories are not the Party of choice and ownership but the Party of restrictions and repossessions. Choice for the rich means hobsons choice for the rest. You mentioned environment, Councillor and you've a Government white paper, a common inheritance. And I agree, the Government claims it's done a great deal for the environment. Indeed it has, it's polluted the rivers, dumped toxic waste on our land, poisoned the air and poisoned the water. You also mention within your document the N H S. Well, let's just have a little word about the N H S. Let's talk about the dedic dedicated staff working in the N H S who have nothing to gain and everything to lose. Let's ask the twelve nurses at hospital how they feel about their own jobs. What choice did you give them? What choice do you give the patients that can't use that ward that you've closed down? What choice have you given the patients who can't use the six other wards that you've closed down? What choice have you given the million people who're on the waiting list for National Health Service? That's some choice. The seven million pound cuts in the N H S service since the Trust. Three hundred jobs're gonna go. That's some choice. Keep your choices, we don't want them. This Government does not give a damn about the despair and breakdown of family life. Their policies are causing this an sorry, their policies are causing, and this from the Party which are supposed to believe in the sanctity of family life. We are certainly heading back to Victorian times on a tide of human misery. The economy. What choice are you giving three million unemployed people? Two recessions within a ten year period. What about the family living on Income Support, on poverty and deprivation? What choice do they have? The old age pension that's gonna get two pound fifteen. Thank you very much. Two pound fifteen. Two pound fifteen. The Tory Government, my Lord Mayor, has for too long denied people the real choice. But if the Tories opposite truly believe that they are the poi Party of choice, then let them have the courage to call a General Election. here here Give the people of and this country the opportunity to show them what choice they're gonna make, and it won't be a Tory Government, it'll be a Labour Government. Councillor Actually it's quite a good speech from my opposition colleague there, but it's total nonsense really. It didn't do anything for the tenants of this city or didn't put any new proposals forward. It went straight away back to the old socialist ideology of fifty years ago. The Party choose, my Lord Mayor, the right to own one of the fundamental principles of Conservative philosophy, just as just as with Labour philosit philosophy, Labour will choose and Labour will own. That's your philosophy. Since the Tenants Right to Buy was first introduced in 1980 it's been constantly opposed by Labour and indeed the S L D who've taken their fat away. This is in marked contrast to the Conservative Government which has consistently supported policies to spread home ownership throughout the country, giving people the choice and the independence which home ownership brings. But, my Lord Mayor, Labour were not to know in the early eighties how popular the Tenants Right to Buy would be. Over one point two million houses bought by Council tenants of their own free will, so much so, my Lord Mayor, that some Labour politicians have had no choice but to do a U turn and give their support to the Right to Buy. My Lord Mayor, how could they not throw out their socialist ideology when so many Labour Councillors, Labour Councillors, were buying, and some in this very Chamber, were indeed buying their own Council house. It's now clear, my Lord Mayor, what the Labour Party has transferred has transferred it's opposition to Right to Buy in to opposition towards the new Rents to Mortgage. Typically, ten years too late. We can see from Labour's amendment J that Councillor , as I said earlier, intends to go down the same old socialist way of providing the very type of housing that is currently failing tenants. Lord Mayor, the Labour Group in have a way of bandying words about without any action. We've heard quite a bit of it tonight. One word they particularly like is, consultation. I would like to ask the current, and I emphasise the current, housing chairman, how much consultation he is being offered to our tenants. Has he for instance consulted them with their rights under the Tenants Charter? Has he consulted them on their right to choose another landlord under the Government's new Tenants Choice? Has he asked indeed the tenants who have not already bought their home if they would be interested in the Government's Rent to Buy housing scheme? Has he consulted with tenants on the benefits of transferring their estates to housing associations? My Lord Mayor, I think not. It's a sad indictment on our present housing chairman, when asked in committee about the changing roles of housing associations, he said, it's a bitter pill to swallow. Well, my Lord Mayor, with that kind of thinking, what hope have our tenants of ever raising their quality of life in our badly thought out Council estates? Council housing, as we know it, is not the answer. The role of Local Authorities as large scale landlords does simply not work. You only have to see some of run down estates for the evidence. It restricts the mobility of the family, it does not create pride of ownership, it does not give a sense of belonging within the community, it encourages crime and with the resultant loss of personal safety. The vast majority of people, Lord Mayor, Lord Mayor, the vast majority of people, the vast majority of people would wish to own their own home. We are the only Party who believe that every family has the right to their own home. Finally, my Lord Mayor, I welcome I welcome and support our motion, quite clearly taken from the brilliant speech made by the Prime Minister at Conservative Party Conference, and when and when the Conservative Government is re-elected next year, we will give the people the power to choose and we will give the people the right to own. Thank you, my Lord Mayor. Councillor your lucky day. If I may start excuse me, my Lord Mayor, by answering something that appears to be confusing the Conservative benches. Despite my baby-faced good looks, I am actually old enough to remember 1979, I am also old enough to remember 1974, 1970, 1966, so I hope that's cleared up. I'm not gonna go back any further than that. But it does seem to me that, can you really trust a front bench, that can't work out that I might be slightly over the age of twenty one? If you listen to what the Tories are actually saying, it's the same old I'm alright Jack mentality. I can do it, I can afford it, I'm gonna go ahead and I'm gonna get it for me and devil take the . We've heard it all before. We're gonna hear it time and time again in the run up to the Election. There was no mention of the rights of people to combine collectively to have their views represented, no where in that, it was all me me me. The people at G C H Q, whose rights you lot took away, to joining Trade Unions, where are th where's their rights? Are you gonna restore them? Is Councillor gonna stand up and say that he believes in the right of people to join Trade Unions? I think not. We we should discuss a bit about this document and I too have had the er dubious honour of reading John Major's speech and it's nice to see that both Tory speakers have actually managed to take half of it each and paraphrase it. I think they have a cheek to complain about people writing other people's press releases when they can't even write their own speeches, they just take a bit of their leaders and claim it as their own. If you have ever actually looked at this document that they have produced for today's meeting, it is not a strategy, it's not a statement, it's just a trotting out of the old stories that have been knocked back time and time again, but if they're gonna bring it out, let's knock it back again. Let's look at some of the issues that aren't gonna be alluded to in other debates today. Let's start off with tax. The Tories have cut int income tax. Certainly, congratulations. They forget to mention a few other little things. V A T has risen from eight percent to seventeen and a half percent. National, there is no choice in paying your electricity bill, your gas bill, your water rates, where V A T has gone up. Don't talk to me about choice with that. National Insurance contributions have risen from six point five percent to nine percent and child benefit cuts have cost a family with two children a hundred and fifty four pounds. There was no choice and you're taking away rights in that. The poorest people in the country have had their tax burden trebled since 1979 and the tax burden has increased, for the average family, from thirty two percent of their income to over thirty three percent. Shareholding. Fine. More people own shares but, as a percentage of the number of shares held, the individual shareholding has fallen from thirty percent in 1979 to eighteen percent today, and if all these shareholders c turned up to exercise their right and their power at the annual meeting of British Telecom or British Gas, or any other, to say, we think it's outrageous the sort of money that you are now paying your chairs and your directors, what would happen? They would be out-voted by the pension funds, the banks, the city institutions, the paymasters of the Tory Party. We have heard a lot today about the of the Trade Union. We've heard nothing about their links with big business. Education. The issue about assisted places in the C T C is irrelevant to a majority of the people out there. It's especially irrelevant as you didn't even seem to introduce them when you were in control. We believe that people should have the choice and the choice and the rights that most people want is for their children to be educated in schools without water dripping down the walls, where the ceiling doesn't fall in, that doesn't rely on temporary classes. That's rights, that's choice. If you're talking, if you're talking about L M S giving people rights and choice, you haven't spoken to that many heads because most heads wanna get on with the business of educating people, not being financial bureaucrats trying to balance inadequate school budgets. Most governors also have work to go to and we don't and we don't I did not say that and you would know it, Councillor . Basically, what we are faced with here is the standard Tory lies, the standard Tory attempt to dig themselves out of their hole. It's not a statement, it is a waste of paper and you should be ashamed to have bought it. The debate has now gone on for thirty minutes. Councillor My Lord Mayor, I move under standing order A fifteen B that the vote now be put. I so move Lord Mayor. Somebody get the other group back in? Don't tell them That is carried by forty eight votes to twenty nine, forty eight in mi as a matt as a mere mathematician I think that's carried. Those in favour of amendment F moved by Councillor please show. I'm sorry, it's J, it's me that can't read properly. That, that is carried by forty eight votes to twenty nine and now becomes a substantive motion. Those in favour of the substantive motion please show. Those against? That is carried by forty eight votes to twenty nine Move on to the next white paper motion on the Health Service Trust. Call upon Councillor to move the motion. So moved, Lord Mayor Seconded? Call upon Councillor to move amendment L standing in his name. Is there a seconder? Seconded Lord Mayor Call upon Councillor to move amendment M standing in his name. Is there a seconder? Seconded Lord Mayor In accordance with standing order A thirteen little C this motion will stand referred to the Social Services Committee for consideration and report unless the Council decided to deal with it at this meeting. What are the Council's wishes? That the Council deal with it at this meeting Those in favour? Unanimous. Councillor I think I ought to remind you, all of us, the three basic principles of the National Health Service. One, that is should be free at the point of service. Two, that treatment offered should be on a basis of need and not ability to pay and thirdly, that it should be a comprehensive service for all people whatever background they come from. That's something that I strongly support and my Party does, and I believe a vast majority of the country support. There's been much debate recently about whether the Tories are going to privatise the Health Service in the future. I think it's actually a waste of time discussing that because they are already privatising the Health Service. Free at the point of service. One in nine of the operations carried out in the region now are done privately, and that's actually one in three in some parts of . That's not free at the point of service. Private hospitals are actually gonna charge women from outside sixty pounds for osteoporosis screening. I think that's disgusting and certainly it's not free at the point of service. The Government to introduce charges for eye tests and since then three million less eye tests have been carried out. Short term cuts, long term misery, and more problems for the Health Service. That's not free at the point of service. What about treatment on the basis of need? Surgeons in are being told to do less emergency operations because of the extra costs involved and in surgeons are ordered to give priority to patients who come from G P budget holders because there's more money coming from those budget holders, nothing to do with basis of need. A comprehensive service. You look at , they've transferred all their long term N H S care for the elderly to private nursing homes. Where's the power to choose for those elderly people that want free at the point of service National Health Service treatment? It was, or it has been, a belief that the N H S was for all of us from the cradle to the grave. It's now a sick joke in the Health Service, it's from the cradle to the Waldergrave. The Trusts are in serious financial difficulties and may well be one million pound or two million pound in debt before the end of this financial year. And quite rightly, it's gonna be the subject of a Parliamentary Health Select Committee Enquiry which starts next week. Meanwhile, it's chief executive, it's brains, it's driving force, is getting out. He says, quote, there's unfish unfinished business for the Trust but not for me. And he's so desperate to get out he'll take a twenty thousand pound a year pay cut. He's obviously abandoning the sinking ship cos he knows what's happening to it. Now what effect is that gonna have on the staff who can't leave? Having said that, three hundred are been forced to leave, three hundred are being sacked, as we've heard before. Nurses are actually being sacked at . The official term is released, not sacked, released, made redundant. But that's been consistent because there are three thousand less nurses this year in the N H S than there were last year. I don't believe that's because people are being treated better, or more people are being treated better, but at a cost of eighty million pound, there are four thousand more managers or accountants, people brought in Under Labour it was cut by five percent. Doctors pay is up thirty nine percent after inflation, under Labour it was cut by seventeen percent. The Party that are the bastions of the Health Service. Just over one million additional hospital cases were treated in 1989, compared with seventy eight. The number of in- patients treated has increased by one point two million. Waiting lists have risen, as Councillor has already said, under every Labour Government, and fallen under every Conservative Government since the N H S was founded. That is fact. That is fact. It's ten o'clock. That is fact Lord Mayor and these facts will bear out. I challenge Councillor to bring me the evidence saying otherwise. So if it's doing so well, oh and you wouldn't have been on that long under a Labour Government, of course, it would've been jobs for the boys, they'd've slipped you in I'm sure. So why do the Conservatives want to make changes then if we've got such a good record on health? The answer, as we have always said, is that there are always ways of improving services in addition to putting more money in. This is where we differ from the Labour Party, whose answer is always more money, more money, more money. The Conservative philosophy is not just to increase spending. Let's be more efficient and make the tax payers' money be used wisely. Let's take a look at the changes the Trusts, under N H S Trusts, staff can adapt their services more easily to suit the needs of local people. I thought this was what some of your policy was supposed to be all about. They can decide their own management and staffing structures, capital programmes and pay and conditions, except those of junior doctors. There is nothing unusual in the idea of hospitals managing themselves. It was only in 1974 that teaching hospitals were brought under Health Authority control. Although Trusts only came into operation in April ninety one, the evidence suggests that many, that many have improved patient services in many w many areas waiting lists have been cut through greater efficiency and increased use of day surgery. The organisation and Company produced a report on N H S Trusts based on discussions with nearly sixty percent of the chief execs of the first wave. It said, the key finding of the survey is that an overwhelming majority of the Trusts are reporting an improved performance. On the eighteenth of August the Sunday Times published a survey of twenty five of the biggest Trust hospitals. It concluded more patients were being treated and waiting times had been cut. So what of Labour's scare tactics of privatisation? I'll quote you from the Daily Telegraph That, that totally, just like the T and A, that totally unbiased paper. Lie is a nasty word. Lie is a nasty word and those in politics ten who use it tend to get hit by it on the rebound. Labour has been saying something it knows to be untrue. This is Mister Kinnock's words, that the Tories will privatise the Health Service. That seems to me to qualify as a false statement made with the intention of dise deceiving which is how the dictionary defines a lie. The Labour Party pose as the guardian of the N H S but when pressed they've not policies, only empty promises, no idea where the funding would come fo from to pay for their ill thought out pledges. Robin Cook, that great man the opposition, of the opposition, an immediate, well then let me quote ya, let me quote ya. I'm I'm pleased it's flavour of the month because it's just going to show you all when w when you listen to his words. An immediate halt to the Government's Hospital Trust Programme and a long term commitment to restore N H S funding was promised yesterday by Robin Cook. But Mister Cook, health spokesman, declined to say how much extra money he thought the N H S needed, or the amount the future Labour Chancellor would be prepared to find. An immediate halt to the Government's Hospital Trust, sorry I'm reading the same thing again. The N H S will not be privatised under Conservatives, it will prosper from the reforms taking place. Finally, Lord Mayor, I believe everything I've said. I believe that the Labour Party know this is a lie. Councillor has put this motion in. No, it's your policy that if you tell the lie often enough people people believe it. Councillor , well well we'll find out, Councillor has put this motion in, I've wound it up Lord Mayor, I'll challenge him or any of his team to a public debate where we can look at the record about, name your place, name your time, I will, I will debate with you in public Councillor on our record of reforms and the Health Service. In return you must promise Council or that you will outline to the people of the Labour Party's plans for the N H S, and state where you will get the funding from. It's time to put up or shut up Councillor . My Lord Mayor I move under standing order A fifteen B that the vote now be put. I so move, Lord Mayor. Just a minute. Before you before you all vote. Put your hands down a minute. I want to remind you that those who have declared an interest should not vote. Those in favour. Those against? Mhm? that's lost, forty eight, twenty six That is lost by twenty eight to forty six. Those in favour of amendment L moved by Councillor . Two. Those against? Well it's obviously lost. Those in favour of the substantive motion please show. Mhm? Forty four now . Those against? That is carried, forty four votes to thirty. I now move on to black paper motion number six, Euro Cities. Call upon Councillor to move the motion. Call upon Councillor to move amendment N standing in his name. I move Lord Mayor Seconded? Seconded Lord Mayor In accordance with standing order A thirteen little C this motion will stand referred to the Community and Environment Services Committee for consideration and report unless the Council decided to deal with it at this meeting. What are the Council's wishes? I propose it be debated at this meeting Lord Mayor Seconded? Seconded Lord Mayor All those in favour? Yes, ok. Councillor I haven't started, I haven't started yet, just let me get it out my system. Are ya, are ya settled now? Are you settled? Are you settled? Right, right. Monsieur Le Mayor. Signor My Lord Mayor, in case you hadn't noticed, foreign languages. But not foreign languages that are not new to . There's a serious, a serious side Lord Mayor, to that greeting cos I just looked at the number of companies that are owned this shareholders scheme that they like to promote, the number of companies that're owned by foreign nationals. of owned by the Swiss,, owned by the Germans,, owned by German, a large number of companies under foreign ownership. One reason, one major reason why got to play a pa a role in Europe, to po protect the interests of the work force within and I make no apologies for any of the visits that any of our members have been on because they've all been worthwhile. and you know, tonight, tonight, tonight I wanted to, I wanted to have a knock about with my old sparring partner but he's ill, he's very ill from what I've heard tonight and he should go see a doctor. Because, because Councillor don't take my advice tonight, and I never thought I'd be thankful to but take advantage of what says what you should do. Something about casseroles, I don't understand that. But the Euro Cities and the position of in Europe is of tremendous importance because of the failure of your Government to recognise the needs of this district and the nis needs of this region. We've heard, so eloquently said by many of my comrades tonight, about the problems right across the sectors affecting and I congratulate each and every one on their contribution tonight. We're not gonna waste time explaining things to you and fortunately, through our friends, through out friends in the T and A, we don't have to waste time. The message gets out. There's many factors, many factors, and I'd like to pay congratulations to Councillor I think it was, or the member certainly that came to the Economic er Sub-committee that discussed the European report back because there we did have a proper discussion about the value of those trips. But for those that weren't there, let me explains some of the good reasons why we're involved. Evidence of the European Commission experts that strategic alliance between cities are likely to form the basis of future business links. Action endorsed by our own Chamber of Commerce and by our own business leaders in this city on the visits that we took place. previous track record in Europe, and Councillor , you can't have it both ways. You claim on the one hand how wonderful you were in securing grants for under the I D O. You actually sold this city short because you went for the I D O without making sure that your Government paid the extra money that robbed that robbed that robbed social services, education and housing. You know it's true. The first visit to Brussels, the amend , the first visit to Brussels we had to go and bail you out because the Commission, the Commission, we could have been in this er the Commission were gonna pull the plug on because of your failure while you were in control to adhere to the programme here here to adhere to the programme because the newly privatised the newly privatised Water Authority and British Rail couldn't affo couldn't afford the finance to put their share in to the grants from Brussels. That's what happened, so that's a reality. You're a wonderful s you're a wonderful speaker but wait til I've finished. Right. The position on Euro Cities also is that we , and unfortunately are the leading European cities that are involved in promoting good initiatives on the expertise of what exists within , be it economic development, be it equal opportunities policies, we are promoting this city and the benefit of getting those grants and having those foresight of putting officers into Brussels means that is being invited by other cities within Europe and Eastern Europe to develop links based on what our expertise is. Because the difference between us and the Tories is when we mean we support for Eastern Europe, we don't just talk about it glibly, we go there and we do it because we see the future of Europe being the future of our own people here in . Sixty million pounds this Council has got out of Europe. The costs of the trips. Brussels related, the cost of the trips, less than one percent. A nonsense view to attack that. But then listening, listening to what you've been attacking tonight, I'm very sad really that that's all you've got to offer. A weak Tory group that doesn't say anything positive about anything. That has a go, an attack, about everything because you've been rejected so many times, so many times, and will continue to be rejected when we get the next election that you're frightened to death to have. Opting out of hospitals of the N H S, opting skills out of L M S and trying to opt out of Europe. I hope you I hope you get better. Bye. I didn't realise it were that exciting. Going back to what I was saying. Opting out of schools, opting out of the N H S and trying to opt out of Europe, but what you forgot is that your leader signed a document that says you can't opt out of Europe. You can argue about single currency but you can't opt out of the European Single Market. And that's a serious side to cos if we in Council don't lead the way to the way that we're trying through the Euro Cities by offering what's good in to Europe, developing those links so that we can share them with the community here and other cultural links, then we're doing a dis- service. We've got a grant of sixty million. We're able to entice further revenue out of Brussels with the support of the private sector. And they're not having a go, they're not having a go, they're saying what can we do to assist? Can we go with ya? They're talking about going with us certainly, but they're doing it in a positive way because they see what the future is. You're trying to shut your eyes to 1993, that's what you're trying to do, and you're trying to pull the rest of us down with it, well it ain't gonna happen. The next steps, cos we aren't gonna be frightened by your tinpot threats about y'know, junketing etcetera. It's no fun for me to be away from my family, away from home. It's no fun for my colleagues to be away. But what we do, what we do is put first, do it properly. Many European cities, many European cities are making great efforts, Strasbourg, Brussels, Barcelona, leading cities within Europe. I'm proud that name's up there. A video was done about European funding. was in there, in that video. The fact a small region, and we call ourselves a region, that's how we got the grants, we now see ourselves developing to support our colleagues in and see the need for a strong regional approach which my colleague will mention later. It's important to this city, both in a financial way, in a cultural way, in the development of the human race, that we make Europe work. You've turned us that route because your Government have switched away from what matters from British people that we represent. Not from those that've got the money to choose, as my colleagues have said, but for those that need to develop and have the opportunity to develop further. I believe that your amendment is typical of the way you've contributed tonight, that you're not really sure for certain about what you're saying and why you're saying it. Public debates, Councillor , well I'll have any of ya. I'll probably debate anywhere on contribution within Europe. Any format, any format. And then you try to turn the argument about attacks on individuals. Public debate is what it's all about. We've had that public debate and we've got the support from the people of for what we're doing within Europe. There's a long way to go because many of these companies that we've mentioned are gonna fight fierce competition from Europe and we need to assist them. They've not looked hasn't British industry because of the attacks it's been under on what Europe has to offer in terms of better training, better health and safety etcetera and we need to bring that information to them. I'm sure that er those thinking members that are left within the Tory group, if there are any thinking members left, will realise the benefits of what we're about and will support the future economic strategy that this Council needs to adopt. So I have pleasure in putting the record straight. I'm not gonna indulge about politics with the of Europe, I believe that what we're saying is the right way forward and I hope you'll wholeheartedly support our resolution. Councillor the E E C's Euro Citizens Initiative. We should ask ourselves, are we a country of opportunists? And without a doubt our history, the commonwealth of nations and business acumen prove this. We can develop in Europe only within the guidelines set out by Central Government, a Government quite clear that a joining of the attitudes and minds is desirable, not federalism. The and their self-opinionated Premier, Jacques Delores, must be told clearly that we stand for co-operation of Western style democracy, not the old Eastern block style of all encompassing socialist state with the dead hand of Brussels directing policies, as Moscow did with the U S S R. Freedom of the independent nation and people must confer. My Lord Mayor, after setting the parameters, I do feel that can continue it's good relations with our other cities and use Brussels as a tool to this end. Yes, Euro Cities is an organisation of Brussels but it must not be allowed to dominate the proceedings and massage and manage the cities. It must be free city to city co-operation within a loose association with Brussels. We have seen the stupidity of the E E C agriculture programme. This must be avoided in Euro Cities. Euro Cities can be a sound tool for co-operation and our officers must be at the forefront with the Chambers of Trade of Commerce, and Development Association and all, all of which have expertise in Europe. Both agencies that the chief executive's office refers to frequently. However, we must ask, what of our Euro M P's? There seems to be little work from the Labour local member. Perhaps this is why, in addition to officers attending meetings, Labour Councillors need to improve their self indulgence by going into Europe on junkets. There are issues across Europe that we need to be aware of as a city. However, we need to conserve financial prudence and only send members occasionally, with officers more frequently. We need to liaise with Europe as a city but there must be three provisos. One, that we ca that we only go when a clear brief from Brussels officers cannot be established, and not a trip just for the lads which was reminiscent of the last hastily organised trips. Two, that we do not become wrapped up in the Bureaucratic socialism of Brussels and that true entrepreneur spirit is encouraged between cities. And three, that financial prudence and co- operation with the private sector are adopted for the good of our city. Councillor , we all remember 1983 when Labour voted to withdraw from Europe and then wanted to re-negotiate in 1984. This is the Party who are now playing the Euro card with cynicism. Labour are in, Labour are out, or is it now, how best can they play to win votes? here here My Lord Mayor, at the Economic Strategy Sub-committee meeting recently, we were asked to adopt from Florence, an objective two statement which was not clear and did not translate precisely. It is typical of the controlling group's over enthusiasm for the photo press opportunity that they're anxious to sign anything, even if the policies are not clear. With reference to the Euro visits in September, thirteen trips since last summer to Europe. Seven Labour Councillors and twenty three officers, cutting twenty three thousand pounds of Charge payers' money is totally unnecessary when liaison groups already exist within the chief executive's office, the Development Association and the Regional Association, on which we all have representatives. If Labour had supported our idea in it's early stage, we would now have spent over seventy percent of the funds available in the five year cycle. here here Not the miserable thirty four percent spent at the moment, all due to Labour slowing down the regeneration of our district by delaying financial support. Officers need to correlate information and if visits are necessary they should decide, with the chief executive's support, the need to visit Europe, not Labour Councillors on a junket costing twenty thousand out of the pockets of our Charge payers. We support liaison but not self indulgence by Labour Councillors. Even that auguste paper, the T and A, in the editorial, recently stated, we cannot afford the extravagance of going along just to see the party, just to be at the party. Councillor must also remember that , and other major companies have a overseas branches of their company. It is not just a one-way traffic as he tried to er indicate. We have no objection to the principle of a motion on involvement across Europe, especially following our recent friend's city's re-emergence into democracy as both of us can benefit from future E C funds. However, we need to be satisfied that members' visits are essential and we will ensure that the details behind Labour's motion are monitored closely. We have officer liaison groups. Let them get on with it and use their capabilities to the full. We, as members, should not sit on their desks and tell them exactly where to go. That is why we put forward our amendment and hope against all hope that Labour may see the light and vote with us on our amendment. Thank you Lord Mayor. Councillor Thank you Lord Mayor. is a European city, but not just that, is a city that leads in Europe. It's a city because of it's rich cultural heritage and it's expertise in Local Government affairs that has much to offer those emerging local democracies in Eastern Europe. And yes, we can teach them about partnership, Councillor and I think it's hypocrisy for the Tories to talk about links with the private sector. The private sector didn't know where you were for two years. I've got a very interesting quote here. The scale of our achievement is a result of a great deal of hard work on the part of officers and Councillors. We had the foresight to assess the situation and successfully sell case. Now, I I could have said that but of course it was Councillor . But there is a new situation emerging because the speakers on the opposite side seem to have forgotten what's happened in the last two years in Eastern Europe and the European map is getting wider. Lord Mayor, I'd like to get beyond the hype and because I suspect the real reason behind the criticisms of the leader of the opposition is because the chief executive didn't invite him on one or two of these trips, because if if the stories of are to be believed, and who would doubt him, is that the kind of person that wants as an ambassador in Europe? Nobody on this side of the Council Chamber wants a junket. Like Councillor , personally I've got better things to do, like being at home. But I believe that the decisions made to go on the trips this autumn have been good ones. I would apologise unreservedly if I thought any of them have been a mistake but I don't believe they have been. Any decision that has been made has been with the best intentions of the people of at heart, to maintain as a leading European city and to derive benefits for the people of this community. I'd just like to say a few words on the conferences that I attended. The Euro Cities Conference in , and this is where the Tories fall down on the facts, because Councillor doesn't really understand what Euro Cities is about. Euro Cities is a group of independent cities who're putting pressure on Brussels to maintain funding in urban areas after the review of the structural funds in 1993. And, because of that pressure, the pressure that's already been put on, we got good news at . The European Commissions Director for regional policy said that he'd accepted the submission from Euro Cities that funding would be made available for urban areas. We need to make sure that that pressure stays on because urban areas, as we know with the City Challenge bid and others, have got distinct and unique problems which we need to address. The Euro Cities Conference was also important because it was the founding of that organisation formally and it was important to go there and say to the big monopoly that's emerging it's One piece. Okay let's see your essays spend er twenty or thirty minutes talking about the essays and the remainder of the tutorial talking about er the exams because this is the last time I see you before your exams in the tutorial anyway erm so just a few hints and tips on exam technique. Right . Right, by the way are your aware of erm Professor , erm which visited Nottingham at the moment . Tony is er Professor of Economics at Cambridge and is a world renowned luminary in economic circles and er he's, he's here for the next week as a special professor and er is giving a number of lectures er most of which are open to, to all, to all students and he is a very famous economist, very clever chap you know if you can get to see him I, I'd reco I'd recommend it erm presuma there may be a sort of programme of his visit stuck up on the student notice boards erm, if there isn't er he's giving a, a lecture tomorrow two o'clock in B seventy four and that's, that's if, he is going to be talking to the M A students er taking Economic Development and Policy Analysis and his topic there is comparing income inequality and poverty in Europe erm so if you, you know, if you are free tomorrow at two it just might be interesting to go along to,feel free to go to B seventy four tomorrow at two o'clock. Erm there's another Econ Soc the Economic Society putting on a lecture at five o'clock on Wednesday er in A forty two and the topic there is What's Happening to the Distribution of Income in Britain and he is also talking to the Public Sector. Take Public Sector Economics and also taking a couple of lectures there, one on Targeting Social Security and er another lecture on An Inefficient on the Official Poverty Line, erm if you want er, well you can get the details from, from me afterwards but something like that could well be on the notice board if you want to go along and see him. He is a famous chap Dick . If you've got time it might be worth spending an hour listening to him. See what he s has to say. C can we see his ? Yeah sure. Thanks. He's a Professor of Economics at Cambridge and er It's very big and cos he's in the office next door. Er er right amazing. Anything else? Did you get my instruction junc adjustment? Yes that's hello this is just an article that we went through last tutorial adjustment developing countries. Has everybody got one on this stage? That will just save you er copying that yourselves library . Right let's just briefly run through this er essay on migration that so some of you answered, can't remember, would somebody tell me the title of it again? It was er what are the major factors influencing migration decisions in less developed countries and how might this affect the urban unemployment. Okay so er where shall we start? Is migration, just generally, is migration a good or a bad, bad thing? I mean well,why do people migrate? Getting married . Okay they're migrating from an area of low incomes to an area of high incomes, right broken the route migration scenario. Is that a good or a bad thing? Right okay depends whether they can get, they can get the jobs, right erm what was our experience say when er U K, France, Spain was developing? There was a lot of rural urban migration then, was that a good thing or a bad thing? Does it help or hinder development of those countries? Sorry? Helped. Yeah helped yeah, why was that? Well you answered it in the first, in the first answer that they got jobs they were employed er the, the rural labourers were able to, to get employment in urban areas er where wages were slightly above those wages that they could reasonably expect in agriculture and because they were actually productive making goods and services they helped the development process. There, is the same true in countries that are developing at the moment? No what's happening there? You get high levels of urban unemployment there so migration to the urban areas and not finding employment situation . That's right in, in a current case of in developing countries now migration is, is hampering the development process and that is quite different from when the now developed countries were de were developing fifty, hundred, hundred years ago. So how, how can we explain this paradoxical situation of high unemployment in urban areas and rapid rates of er rural to urban migration? Why is it happening, it seems paradoxical, I mean in theory erm, you know the migration should be driven by the wage, wage differentials, right and migration will redrit will reduce those, those wage differentials did a lot of the emphasis on . That's right that's, that's, that's the reason why, why they move . W why do, why do people move, I mean if they know there's urban unemployment, why, you know, why do they move? I mean if you've got a paradoxical situation here and there is very high unemployment in the urban area, yet migration is still, is still an ongoing phenomenon,wh what may account for, they, they actually again erm a well paid urban job and they migrate . Right so they may think that, you know, they're gonna be one of the lucky ones, presumably. How about if I said well the reason why they migrate is that they don't know about urban unemployment, you know if, you know, it's a lack of information problem. If they knew that the unemployment rates were twenty or thirty percent in urban areas that they wouldn't migrate but because they don't have that information that's, that's the reason. I mean does that hold any water, do you accept that? I mean it's a logical, it seems plausible anyway, erm empirical evidence, however, suggests that that isn't why we have rapid migration or such a large degree of migration. Empirical evidence suggests that erm migrants are reasonably well informed about employment prospects in urban areas. Right, so why do they, why do they still move? Well Tom suggested, well they could be one of the, one of the lucky ones that does get, does get a job, what other factors might account for Do they see erm, if, if they migrate to the city in the urban areas then they realize they won't get a job, and have a job straight away, er well paying job but by actually living in the area they would and taking in at a job and they get a lot of contacts and then eventually after a period of time they job. Yeah, I mean that seems a plausible way of getting into the, er the job market, er what would Harrison Todaro erm say, you know, because they were saying that this migration, this migration was perfectly rational, despite there being high levels of unemployment. What was the basis of their argument? Why did they say that migration occurs even when we have high unem unemployment? Yeah, yeah okay over oh what century were they long term short term That's right, they say they say even though unemployment rates are very high now, people are prepared to wait ten years before they get a job. Current levels of unemployment are relatively unimportant, hopefully some time down the line they will expect to get er as a relatively well paid job erm because agricultural incomes are so very low, you know, and urban incomes are relatively, relatively high, they may be prepared to wait for you know five or six years in the urban area, making what could be sort of a subsistence wage, simply because that's all that they're gonna be on anyway if they stay in the rural area, so if there is a higher probability of them getting a well paid job merely by being in the urban area making these contacts then they might as well move to the, to the urban area in the hope of some time in the future obtaining that er er an urban job. Right okay. So what, I mean we've been t talking around it at the moment. What are the factors that affect the migration decision? Does em does empirical evidence, well I think you probably say generally that there is some economic factors and there is some non economic factors, which of those two does er empirical evidence suggest is the main driving force behind migration? Is it the lure of the bright lights or is it something more economic. Yeah econ what appears to be the case is that it's economic reasons that are the main drive, the main driving factors from er the migrant. Although there, although there clearly are important non economic factors. The, the bright city lights that's not what makes people uproot their, uproot their lives and go and move somewhere else, they are after economic betterment and that's the driving force er behind migration so just before we leave the non economic factors what might they be? The non econo economic factors this er erm infrastructure services. okay right, anything else? just wanting to get away from traditional . Yeah, they may feel constrained in their very traditional modes of life dominated by religion or some er some restrictive erm norms of the, of the society. Anything else you can think of? Weather . Yeah, yeah that's right, due to s lack of infrastructure in the rural areas, it's much more lively but erm the disaster of one form or another, of one form or, or another will have a much more important effect, well that's simply because there's a flood then you either swim or you sink, you know, there's no, there's no help a at hand. In urban area there may well be mechanisms in place five against, so on and so forth to, to sort out these problems. Okay right erm, so what seems to emerge is that it's economic factors that are the most important er determinants affecting the migrant's decision. Right so migrants move to the urban areas erm due to the presence of higher wages there. What are the reason for my account the fact that there, they don't obtain these higher wages because clearly there is this income gap the differential is driving the whole process, yet economic theory tells us that the migration should, should diminish that gap between income in urban and rural areas jobs to go around the people who do migrate to the urban skilled enough to jobs. Okay our, our economic theory assumes our economic theory assumes that both labour and capital are perfectly mobile. are different sectors in urban areas. One that er they call the that is the state over employed people and the casual and formal sector had wait dates in the formal sector they don't meet and if this sector does not create many many jobs . Right okay so formal sector wait For, for opportunities Yes. to, to emerge. That's right, all we've got here is that although there, there is a high degree of migration, the wage differentials are not er diminishing because we don't have perfectly mobile resources, like are theory tells us that we do have. Clearly the labour is geographically mobile, it's not occupationally mobile, so the people that move don't necessarily have the skills required to take up these high wages. You obvious, supposed high wages in the urban area. What other reasons might account for this urban rural wage differential, just generally higher er standard of living er just cost, just prices er yeah, the cost the cost of living may well be higher and as a result employers have to pay higher wages, Train staff slump, trained Yeah could be important, who are the main employers? Who are, who's offering Yeah that's one of the reasons for the, quite an important reason in, in many cases why, why there are ways of large wage differentials that's because there's a minimum wage legislation. Does that, does that They don't assume it could be one of the factors that leads to the higher, I mean all these things, they don't actually say what cause the differential is to them. Say there is a differential, what affect does that have on mi on migration, that's where they sort of start from erm who were the import the employers, because er when it says, you know it says empirically validated, wages are higher er in, in the urban areas partly due to higher costs of living, partly due to the minimum wage legislation, but also another quite important influence. There are some ways of government on wages. What do you mean there Martin? I mean some, some are better wages because they are subsidized by the government. Right Which welfare policy by better wages. That's right, it's erm its empirically verified that in developing countries er the civil service or the, the government sector is very very large relative to the, to the economy, now whereas say U K or somewhere like France the government public and semi public er organizations employ ten percent of the, the workforce, perhaps a bit, bit more in France than the U K erm in developing countries the government sector can be, you know, over half of the total urban, urban employment, in some cases it's seventy and eighty percent of er employment. Now it is generally observed that most civil servants whatever country they come from make sure that they er give each other pay rises and I know it happens in this country the Civil Service pay pays quite well and it's certainly a key erm feature in er pay structure in developing countries that if your, if you work for the government you are very very well paid, like government wages can be, you know, four, five, six, ten, twenty times of the, the national average and it's not because erm they're paying high wages to get the, the most able people, it's because there are mechanisms, institutional mechanisms that keep wages high, there's no market in the jobs for,th these are generalizations but I think they are fairly, fairly true erm becau there is no market for er for the jobs, for civil service jobs that appointments are made and it is much more important who you know than, than what, what you know and the old boy network, as it's called, in this country is fairly important in the English Civil Service but a similar sort of network tends to be far more important in developing countries, something that is euphemistically called patronage erm but we might call the old boy network or er er jobs for the boys whatever, but erm Do they issue them, part of the reason that of them having higher wages is that part industrials are bias that they, they have a higher wages and they think they will have a stronger growth in the industrial sector Well because there is er an industrial bias, erm what industrial bias means is that gets subsidized because it's subsidized they can pay higher wages er erm so it's not just the government jobs that are well paid it's the industrial jobs. Now because the government has a, plays a much bigger role in the economy the government will be in charge of what you might think of as industrial employment so er a lot of manufacturing, heavy industry er mining so on and so forth will be run as a national as a national industry, right and er wages in that nationalized industry will not be er set at market levels but will be set at, by some institutional mechanism that won't reflect demand and supply or reflect the rent seeking and rent server rent preserving behaviour of civil servants and government quangos er so on and so forth but you must bear in mind that the government sector will er the public and semi public sector in developing countries is vast in comparison to er to develop the countries and as a result wages set in er in the government sector er will erm will be the driving force for all industrial employment, so what with wages and industrial employment. Okay erm What's erm, what's a quango? Quango, government appointed body essentially. Check I'm right, I think I can spell it, it's a Q isn't it quango? Yes It's not so accurate. No I don't really think so, it's a name given to a body,so semi public body appointed by, by government. Like the N R A? Sorry? Like the N R A. Er are they privatized? They regulatory. Yeah that's a . O P Q. How do you spell that? I am just about to tell you Q A P U quan quango, it's a Q U A N G O semi public body with financial support from and senior appointments made by government. Yes that's a semi semi copy body appointed by the government or possibly with financial support from the government. Right erm okay let's just er wrap up here. What was the main er outcome for Harrow Harrison Todaro's model? They could explain why it was rational like for migrants to migrate even in the a even in the presence of high unemployment. What was the policy and complet of that analysis? Basically government can increase or reduce unemployment by increasing labour demands through just handing out more jobs in the sector. That will create more migration. Right, so it will be sel self defeating, job creation in the urban areas will be self defeating and most of the, the reason why that was particularly important because historically most of the job creation schemes that governments have put in place with or without aid in developing countries is in the urban areas, you know, it's the erm subsidized industrial plants, subsidized erm manu manufacturing industry, right so that the import substitution industries er have been set up with government and or aid money, foreign aid money and what Harrison Todaro was saying you're wasting your time putting money into these big projects, right, because that only in that only in erm exaggerates th the migration problem because it really will increase people's perception of er job possibilities in the urban area, they think there are jobs being created by government there, that will happen as another, as another stimulus er let me just draw a little diagram what Harrison Todaro was saying right we've got time here such to say horizontal axis marks the lifespan of some representative migrant,then you've got wages, wages in the agricultural area and wages in the urban area like let's just say that this is the wage rate in agriculture, right . Now, what the potential migrant will do, Harrison Todaro assumed, was to say, right what they'll do is that they'll, these migrants will mentally calculate the present value of receiving W A throughout their lifetime, right, and they'll discount erm those wages by appropriate discount rate, reflecting the fact that a hundred pounds today is worth a lot more than a hundred pounds twenty years' time or thirty years' time. Right so something like that and so this represent I mean you can figure this line as being sort of the real wage over the time you mention increasing throughout. Is the real wage over time so at this point let's just say that's a hundred, a hundred pounds and this is ten say two, well lifespan is thirty, thirty years and a hundred pounds erm today, today is worth er no Yes, it's worth two pounds in thirty years. What you can buy with one hundred pounds today will buy just two pounds in thirty years? No that's erm, a hundred pounds in thirty years' time is equivalent to receiving two pounds today, that's right as you say . Okay so if we just summoned this area right, that area there represents the present value of the discounted stream of income. Right over, over a lifetime okay if we could sum this, it seems the time is continuous with the integrate, right, over time, we'll just get the area of that and that curve. Now let's say that urban wages, right are up here and that it's going to take, it's like this individual, this amount of time to get er a job at that, at that wage, let's say that's the expected wage, of the urban area, okay. If we again discount this income at the time or get it looks like that. So this now represents the discounted value of the urban wage overtime . All this potential migrant has to do is to say well does that area right exceed sorry this area. chalk Okay does that area exceed that area, well that's clear from this little diagram, yes it does. Well what are the key factors that will affect the relative sizes in these two, in these two erm, these two boxes. Well the first thing, right the differential differential between agricultural wages and the expected erm urban wage right would create the closer these, these lines are together, right, the erm smaller would be the difference between this area here and that area there. What other things are are important? Well it's the time taken to gain employment the time taken to gain employment in the urban sector. What is the expected urban wage? Well it's the, the actual urban wage times by the probability of getting a job, right, therefore,the probability of getting a job is also going,go going, is also going to be important erm erm this diagram doesn't actually incorporate this but full thing is going to be the initial costs, the costs of moving, okay, so there, there may be actual physical costs involved this diagram. Right so those are the things that are going to be that will, that will be important. Right erm, just finally,given that the main conclusion of Harrison Todaro's model was that there's no point erm having job creation schemes in urban areas because that just exacerbates the problem of migration. Right what should we do? Migrat if migration is a problem I think you will all agree that it actually hampers the development process, what should we, what should we do? Create Okay creating jobs in that sector or creating . Okay if that would raise agricultural wages or Well raise agricultural wages will reduce the number of people wanting to To migrate? to migrate To migrate to the urban sector . Okay and hows how best to do that though? Because it looks like you are advocating supporting agriculture. Okay so what, what do rural developments schemes You will reduce the erm wage differentials as well. Wi it may well do, it may well produce the wage differential Increasing . Yeah okay I mean this is all what these schemes or what the current school of thought is. Initially, you know, development meant higher than wages, alright, you know, making these erm er er sort of producing cars and high technology goods in urban, urban areas in developing countries was thought, you know, that's the way, that's the way ahead and these big projects, whereas now the thinking has changed and it's let's promote infrastructure, education, erm in the rural areas thems rural areas themselves, right, erm,anythi any other policies so yeah you may want to erm invest, invest in agriculture,and I don't mean some agricultural support but erm promote, well yeah make, make roads, educate the population erm disseminate agricultural technologies. Any other policies that you might think of? Compulsory castration that's the main problem here, too many bloody people about,that's what's needed population control well that's, that's what's done, that's what they er, you know a lot but not compulsory, well sometimes compulsory but we don't normally get money from the world bank to er er er get the scissors out, erm the note er population control in terms of sort of contraception awareness, so on and so forth is a major,the it can be a major means of reducing this particular problem. Because part of the problem is that there are too many people in agriculture and if you can reduce the population threshold allowed, right, wages will virtually rise, because labour productivity will rise because there is less labour on the same amount of land. Er, any other policies? some of these countries in Africa though they've got like compared with the population, they've got loads of land, compared with somewhere say like, like U K, so if that's the case, how come they've got so much surplus labour? Well because the labour in say this country is over productive, this has an awful lot of categories attached to each unit of labour, that's why labour is very productive, is that you for each unit of labour employed there might be ten units of capital, I E there are chemicals etcetera, the reason why erm this this pressure on the land in say Africa, Africa, even though the density of population was much less and that there's virtually no capital there, right, so in order to produce the food, you know the labour has to till the soil by hand and spread the seed by hand Surely, that would require lots and lots of labour though wouldn't it? Mm, yes that's right So there should be a surplus? Well it's just that for that, I mean that's all, it's all relative for those conditions there are, there is too much labour on the land, you erm, if you could increase agricultural productivity in a way that would displace labour and that's very difficult to do, well you can, you can do it er most, most capital is labour displacing but not all, not all capital, erm so you could, whereas I see, I see what you are saying is that, why well the you could g you could, you could do it right even though that there are a lot of people on the land er you could still make them wholly productive by giving them more capital that wasn't labour that wasn't labour displacing, like you give them better seeds for example, like that would increase the productivity of the land, there wouldn't be so much you know population pressure on the land er because everybody would have enough to eat and we could er actually sell something, right. Any other any other policies that you might want to pursue? Say that's population control investment in agricultural infrastructure and technology education and what's causing this problem in the first place? Do you have er sort of reduce the industrial . Yeah, that's what's causing the problem, very high urban wage rate but it doesn't reflect market forces, so if you erm reduce the subsidies given to er industry erm and get rid of any institutional price setting that there may or wage setting that there may be in those in those industries. You know I hate to say it but privatization might be required, right there's too much government involvement, there's too much erm er there's too much inefficiency, right, by and large there's an awful lot of er bribery, corruption, patronage in developing countries, their government sectors are very very large. Okay just before we go first we get a copy of er exam papers, this is from G you may already have a copy oh blast when you are talking about er public division, does standards er British and with other companies from er Western, Western economies? Okay so There is, there is a gap in technology er now. That's right apart from these government run industries in these developed countries, they are subsidized to a very large extent and they are not competitive on, on the world market. So privatize this company there, there will er they will fail in competition with erm They may, they may do. If that's the case you know resources shouldn't be going into, into that particular industry or there is not a direct economic case apart from to the social costs that they be involved in. That company going out of business, erm because er large scale government subsidization erm is, is so prevalent in developing countries er the a lot of the government's resource's being spent on what are inefficient or obsolete industries. Mm mm. And that's hampering the whole development process because it's high, high wages, high wages creates migration and the whole resource allocation reflects in the economies er are disrupted and because people are moving out of agriculture because they can't make any money from agriculture they think they can make some money in industry like agriculture itself is being starved of capital and er so it hampers the development process, I mean it's a complicated business but er there may well be some, some sort of strands of sense that we can draw out of this, one of which may be well if the government sectors are too large in these countries essentially it doesn't matter who owns these companies whether it's, they were privately owned or government, erm if they are inefficient they are inefficient Yes. and if that inefficiency was causing the problem it's not the result of the ownership er, there are inefficient private companies it's just that inefficient private companies tend to go out of business, whereas inefficient public ones can be maintained with subsidization. . What I'll do is that I'll final of action shortly and I'll tu that's my last copy, that's what I'll do, I'll photocopy it before you go and er give you a copy each don't worry I the exam, I'm leaving at Christmas time. Alright, oh I see you are not sitting, you are not taking the exams? last year's exam, they er seems to be exactly the same syllabus more or less, yeah. Can I just say, just a couple of points before you go erm you are all fairly good at writing long answer essay questions, but you are probably not so good at writing short answer questions, right. Now it is very important that you write good short answer questions, because you think they're in actual fact that's where most people fall down and last year Is it marked with a fifty? Yes, fifty given it exactly the same way. It's much easier to get good marks on a short answer question than it is in theory to but most people don't because they don't apply the correct technique so to writing short answers. We must have in a short answer like there's a definition, most of the concepts there will be erm defined effective protection, its optimal, optimal tariff, trained creation, or trained diversion, there will be concepts that need definition, economic jargon, so you must have an equal er definition in there and you must have examples of how this concept is used, right say erm er one of those about don't make reciprocal dumping. Write a short essay on reciprocal dumping because define what reciprocal dumping is you've also got to give at least one example of reciprocal dumping, right, so you don't have to give any detailed examples just erm E E C waste er food policy in these days reciprocal dumping would be subsidized after exports in order for America to sell its few exports it has to so it is best subsidised definition define what it is give application of concept erm if the concept involves measurement, say how it, how it can be measured say an effective protection trade, er say how it could, how it could be measured er and then discuss any problems that there might be, is it a contentious issue? Er or are there is there, are there a couple of schools of thought on this particular subject, well essentially what you must do is write something about everything you know, about erm that this particular sort of concept, don't write everything you know on this particular subject, like you have only got fifteen minutes. So it's, is it better to write a little bit about a lot of things? Yeah. Rather than a lot about That's what you must do, if you get, if you write a lot about a couple of things they'll say erm this chap's knowledge is pretty specialized on this area, you know what, what these er short answer questions are picking up right is your, is your general knowledge. So it has to be sort of like written in comprehensive? Oh yeah. written prose But you know, so you it's like writing an essay, you've got to try and get as mi many things in as you would do when you if you were writing a full essay but instead of writing a paragraph on each thing you write a sentence on each thing try and cover as many bases, then, that's how you how you get very good marks, it's not, they are not trying to test your erm your deep knowledge about any one thing in these short answers they are testing the broad, broad venture of your, of your knowledge, alright, so what you want to try and do is to is a blunderbuss approach when you ans you answer these, these questions. Yes,this these diagrams. Don't touch it with a barge pole, they take too much time but very very rarely do you need to write, to draw the diagram in the short answer questions. That's about the only difference between writing a short answer question than writing a long answer question, is that the long answer is a, is a good idea to have a diagram. In short answers unless it is crying out for a diagram don't bother because you'll spend five minutes drawing the diagram, labelling it, explaining what D P and D S means and it just won't work it definition, application, measurement problems, contention, Yeah. is it a contentious issue erm ho how is the criticized, very very short, because you are only going to be writing for about a page, a page and a half, right, so just make sure that every sentence or every other sentence carries a new bit of information and then people say, good, this person knows everything about this subject, full marks and you and er but it's all too easy to, to focus on one or two aspects of say a question on trade or er er Harrison Todaro model of migration. If you sp if you spend five minutes drawing a diagram or going through the equations person knows one aspect of this model in great detail, what they want to know is what was the importance of that, of that model, important results of the model. How can we criticize it, how well does it actually fit into what happened in the real world, they just want little bits of information but not too much depth on anything but always remember empirical evidence examples are very important what I would do is using those examples or la last year's exam paper, practise, practise the short answers because you can't write very much detail in it so it's a good idea to have some idea about how much you can write, then your expectations will be changed okay. Right if you have problems er before you leave or when you're advising afterwards I'll be here throughout vacation and before your exams so come along and you go through holiday are you? Yeah. Full time. Yeah, if you want to come and see me please, please do. Yeah, alright. Cheerio. next Monday I want to see you have a happy Christmas. Thank you very much Gabriella, happy Christmas to you. See you, see you next term. Okay If you do have, if you do have any problems Mm mm. er come along and see me because I, because it is quite you know likely that you will sort of worry about Yeah. the exams and if I can sort of say, you don't need to worry about Mm mm. about this you are wasting your time, er then hopefully you if you are having a problem to come and see me and I can tell you if it is a problem or whether it's not, it's not particularly a problem, so you know, come along and see me Thank you very much. Right but have a lovely holiday, don't forget to have, don't forget to have a holiday, don't revise all the way through. Okay. Okay, cheerio Gabriella. It's only dollars it takes and got to pay her two hundred dollars. That's two . Two pence. How much? Err, let's give him one pound, no, thirty pound. Search . It will take a long time. . . I'll put some . Yes me lady, no me lady, three bags full me lady. Sshh, don't . I've got No not yet. I've got a . I hit a number seven . Here it is . I've got . I'm not taken . I'm gonna put the double shake on. I've got the double one . The double big one. Double shake one. I'll show you, you can't have the double shake one . The double shake hurts. It don't one. Not have it. The double shake one. . They knew it was her. I'll put on these things. I I've already got one of these. I'll put another . This under the china. Oh. Sshh. I've got that . You got my then? I haven't. Wayne, Wayne. . . Martin's . No, no, no, no,. get another one. Right, I got one . He Martin whatever he was. . I'm cutting his hair off. I'm cutting, I'm cut . mm, I . Think it's cos . Yeah . We got potatoes? We always . Course we always have potatoes. What do you expect? They carry a very good source of protein I'm trying to . I make a party. When, when was that then? My mate's eighteen. I'm putting the tablecloth on.. My mate's eighteen and he absolutely thought . when I I going to do . Well we haven't got any seen it. Don't talk rubbish we've got nothing in the . Mum look . I can see right through the . . . I'm gonna make my . Hi. Hi Mitch can we start again I'm . . Everything daddy . the one who . . One, two. . No, I'm . Head that. No, I'll keep the head normal . Yeah, and shut your eyes or we eyes. . We're gonna make you do . No, I'm not. I'm not. . . Boys can't anything. I know. You know that was there . . You behave yourself. I got . So what d'ya reckon mm, it gonna be the fashion this year? . Mm What about boys' shoes?. Yeah . Probably Nike. Nike, again. Not Nike. Not Nike. What you gonna say, what, what, what trainers do you reckon gonna be in apart from then? Ah erm Adidas. Adidas, again. Yes . I like the they're nice. Yeah, my, my erm, my cousin's boy friend got proper on his catalogue . I like the . I like the boots, I like the . Na, I don't like the boots. Aha, that's what your doing, nothing. Hmm I'm doing hair .. Customer, customer. on my nerves. . these fancy words. You stop trying . yeah. sleep.. this is boring. I know,. Like it's only played from your wrist. Got sun tan with . . where's my dinner? It's on the on the ironing board. .. Mum. What. are coming out . do you want mash or boiled? Mashed. Do we get a cupboard? Which the blue one, the green one, the purple one or the one? Which one? That one, that one, that one or that one? Which one? One, not all of them, which one? Don't keep nodding, which one? . That one, that one, that one or that one? Which one? Oh idiot, which one? Ehm, I want that one . . . What this one.. They're all, so out you must go, when I say so . When I say so . Please, please,ex exit when told . That one . and that one we found which we . . This is her, Barney, Snorts, William, Wilma, Fred, Dino. Dino. Flip mobile. Flint mobile. Betty. Betty. , frama frama bama. Bama, bama. Bama, bama. Bam, Bam, Betty, Flint mobile, Dino, Fred, Wilma, Snorts and Barney Did you see ? Hm, hm, oh yeah, I, I could, erm, he's, he's a, they were, they were took hostage. Yeah. . And, and the bloke caught himself and . . Sort of thing he goes. What is it? What's he done? Ehm, you know what I've said before, eh, eh you'll get . . Do what That. What's that? What does that . are done. No. . Hold her hand. my hand. I think he . . No, look, put your hands like that then, hold it out, bring it in,, that's it. . You'll go asleep if you do that. Asleep? You will, you'll go asleep.. Mind . What she say? . How you what? What you doing? What you doing that? Because you want you. I think most enjoy . way. things away. . His tall, his . What. And. No, not yet. And he er tall and, and . He got what? Hm . Loves him does she? Yeah. How old's she? Eh? How old's she? Fifteen. And how old's he? Huh. How old's he? Fifteen. Hm. They're both fifteen? Yes. Well when I was sixteen, what date am I smirf? August the 25th.. January. Yeah. That means you would have been older than . you're not,. You're seven in July aren't you? Yes. You were born in different years, no you weren't. So you was born in different years. Who me? Yeah, you were born, what year were you born? July the 6th, year was . What year? Huh? What year 1980 1984. 84, she was born 85. You're six and I'm nine. Four minutes. You're nine? Yeah I was born in 1980. Yeah, that's right. I was born in 1975. . Oh god I'm an old woman. When I'm seven. two months, sixteen in August. . When it's July . How old did, when you were, when you were . Hoping to . Guess what?. Yeah about that. He doesn't speak a word of English though, everything you say to him, he just goes love it. Yeah. Are you, are you, are you . See,. Say I, say I. . Say A, B, C, D. . We haven't got E. others. Make a word on the A, B, C. . Right, mashed potatoes are coming up. . I don't think I've done enough potatoes, oh dear.. . . . Oh yeah, it's called wash hair , don't you know how to wash your hair. Might be. I know, I know how to have a bath. . Go away, I'm cooking. What? Do. Do what? Hm. Yeah,it's over there. . Excuse me please I'm trying to cook, I haven't got enough potatoes. Makes some more I expect. . It could be three quarters of an hour. long time . .. Spaghetti's in there . . Right, who's . How's . Four There's four kids. . There's not enough .. Would you like to help me try and take some? . Kelly, come on. Peeling potatoes, she's only peeling potatoes,dinner potatoes, then wash up after dinner. like that, who do you think you are? I can't breathe . . put some into it. . . Sounds horrible. How many tins did you do? Two. Make up for the potato . . Well when you've finished up all the spaghetti would you like to put a bit of potato on my . I said mine not Liam's. . . . You don't like potatoes . I can see right through that skirt, have you got a petticoat on? I have got . Petticoat. Right. . You cooked it. I cooked it, I nothing on it . Shelley. . . Liam do you want some dinner? . Mum, mum. Mum's . Mum. Yes. dinner. See . . Don't want any dinner. Where's my thingy .. . . Jayne's been to she didn't did she? Why did she go in there? . . I hurt my arm when I sleep. . Come on. I know what you're doing. Do you know what he . . Hey,eat any of these . . Just say no . what one is that? . Yeah. First three have you finished? Yeah. Can have an ice lolly. . Is second is second one finished? Second, the third and the fourth. . is being a pig. With my .. I bet they're all different. Oi,you say that again I'm gonna hit you right round the earhole.. Yeah . yesterday. No it's not. It is. It's not, Penny's dinner went in the bin. Yeah, I didn't eat my dinner. . isn't that what Penny has? no.. . In the middle of it.. Hm, hm. Then watch mine later. What do eat Penny's dinner . Baa, baa, black sheep, have you any wool, yes sir, yes sir, three bags full, one for the master and one for the dame, one for the little boy who lives down the lane. Baa, baa black. Come on stop it, supposed to be eating. Baa. Richard. I had to tell at the table. I about . Children should be heard and not seen. Please mum I'll do anything, anything . And you're not . Please mum.. What you talking about yourself? No, Warren.. Who's . Eh? Who's . Richard. .. Roger and Emma on my .. I want Blue. . I want Green. What's that. You want the one after it? What's that. . Don't go through, what they go green, blue, red, yellow? No red. They go red, orange, yellow. Green, blue purple . No, I got . Knock, knock, knock. Well I don't know what teacher I've got.. . . my mum . Hold on to it. . Not that you know. How do you get . . Go on stop that. Have you finished . Have you finished. Mum. What. Mum. Yucky, yucky . What did I slap you for when you're wrong? . What make you control it. . Bet people move. Don't be rude Come on eat that. . . Not a lot you can do about it.. buy a car, how many . I don't know who it is. . . there's twenty twenty men, right five hours to big hole,how long would it take one man. . How many people to make? You dare, don't you dare tell him. Doesn't know. what's the question?to the hole. Mum knows. The bigger hole. . How many did it take . How long did it take one man. One minute. One minute, how did you work that out? cos spade int the ground, digs it out . . Where's the cake tin. . . And they can just stick their finger finger in the earth. Yeah. Or get your football . Oh yeah, when I was . Can't get out. I can't get out. You can swing, you always get out, if you want to get out if you want to go to the toilet. I never do. I can't . Oh, I haven't done anything have I Colin? Yeah, eat my dinner well. . . Cos do it. . She yesterday. I used the last night, cos she . . Mum why don't you wash and dry? We always do it . I did last night . last time you've done it five times in a row. Five times . Mm five times in a row. Guess you've washing or drying up . I've done it. What about what about during the holidays . That's what were talking about. Yeah, we, me and Kate done that aren't we? Yeah, what time did you? Well I've done it six days. You got a lot to doing it. You that one cos you anything. I that one I've got it everyday with my . And I've got every or not isn't it? isn't it? I was playing my cousin and my cousin was watching the film. he was . Oh,they're older than them. How old is your . Oh, the ones who's got is about something like that.. Were in the bus, aargh.. Yeah, yeah at that age I . Close your eyes right,. . Here you are then.. Close your eyes right. One, two, three, four, five thirteen, fourteen, fifteen, sixteen, eighteen, nineteen, twenty, twenty one, twenty two, twenty three, twenty five, twenty six, twenty seven, twenty eight, twenty nine. . Thirty, thirty one, thirty two,. . Thirty seven, thirty eight . and are a lot bigger. . Had a catapult and you say .. stop it out. Just cos mum . Ask for . Come on Colin.. That's why, you know looks at, you've got a on your eyes,. Why? Cos they've kept it in , and when you ain't . Compared to me, in age, right, they're a bit big. Go by your size. . . I did . . Take away take away your . Don't breathe all over me Colin. Not much . Oh yeah, cut the corners. It comes up to there on you. . Come on Colin, Colin. Look big enough? . Colin's bigger than me. How does that work? I'm twelve . You're small for your age. . Johnny will you take him to the toilet please. . Where's Kelly? I don't know. Well last time we saw her, she said that she hadn't been I think she went in her bedroom now, or in the toilet.. Oh, where does this go? It goes in there. Might as well help you. Oh yeah. . Cherry filling. Yeah I bought some, if you get to hurry up out of it. Alright, going first. There you are. . Yes. . Come on. . Mum you alright. I've got a . You dry like this. I I stood there do drying up you see, like this right, I'm standing like this, do drying up . No I didn't, I'm, this is right, I'm standing like this, straight up and she walk along . Oh, I've got same like that. I like that. I didn't I was standing. You went. He was he was like this. . he was like this, then the drying up she goes out and like that.. I can see . . No, I he took, his up there and I've got him down there. And I was right. . Oh that's lovely. Yeah,. I I I . I I behave myself. Which one do, would you . . Yes it has thank you. When? Eat your dinner. . Have wheels, haven't we had wheels, mum haven't we had wheels all week? . Not yet. Mum haven't we had . You do yeah.. No, World War Two next year. No were having er . Having World War ten . . Tell you what, we'll give 'em till July, maybe mixed doubles come out. . Yeah I think . Ooh. Ooh you . put it on. No . Who's whingeing? Maria . What . Why did you hit him? What? Why did you hit him? I about with him, but I didn't hit him hard, shoved about with him, didn't I, didn't quite. . Why can't you keep your hands to yourself? . You're standing here, you've done sweet nothing again today . . Yeah, I know, you're standing there cuddling that finger. .. Who's had spaghetti and put it all over the floor ?. . Couldn't have done, didn't have any. . Charlene sat there. She's got, she's . . Oh you've got paint all over your tongue . Richard come on, come down and finish this boys now. Oh, he's a liar Mum, I hardly touched him. Ask Warren. Ask Warren, I hardly touched him. Just keep your hands to yourself, right. It was quite hard a smack. It wasn't... No. Share them, you do not take his toys. Who's that? Kim. .. Especially for the little one. and he had a go at me, and I like that then she hit me. just put it on. . Don't, wait for everybody else . What, I can't hear you . Stop moaning. I knew you hadn't . Well I . I can't hear you. I heard him. No it's not, it's not our one. .. . Take one then. Thank you. Say it then, thank you. Go on Richard help yourself to a drink. Richard this one. Go on help yourself. God, she 'ad eight of I had eight of them . She 'ad eleven of them yesterday. I haven't . And I bet it . I had one. My brother is the most brilliant artist in the world. How d'ya know that? It's a monster mum innit? Hmm Absolutely wonderful, you couldn't get 'em for . . I don't know . You really wouldn't. I haven't seen it. No such word. I haven't. . You know that, that one where you've gotta make up a monster. Play that game where you and Craig were a monster. Yeah. monster sat there and . . . And got this age . What's his name. He's a goody or baddy int he? . Richard get on with it, come on. . What's his name? . Oh, that's not fair, Richard got spaghetti. He might not get an ice lolly . get what he wants. Come on you should be finished now. Aargh, you'll be tired . Oh. Right, erm. Warren. Right,. . Yeah, you do it. . Get there yet. . Give me it Warren. . No. Oh right,. . Give me it . You . . End up doing room. Did you watch it when was here , went off with Frank, yeah. . Oh she was really a bitch. That's all he's taken over place. . . . That's all she's done, she's taken over . Get my chair. Get my chair. Well I'm not doing drying up. She went round . She'll end up pregnant , married at. These two are sitting down. I think that Hazel . Charlene, I know it was ere. She came over and kicked my chair. Did ya? Did ya? . . Took his name off.. Who made it? George. Me and George . Mind your feet. . What for. I put . What for. We was doing this thing. Make it for Richard? Why did you . Cos . . I've I've done most of it . Wilma! You ain't got to go out there and sit down . . . get it like that, I , I, I, I, I, I. . . Why don't you for Christ sake get on with it and hurry up now. Hmm, hmm, hmm . I'm fed up with you being so loud tonight, now quieten down and get on with it. . You've always got something to say. It can wait two minutes till you've finished, now go and get moving . Mum,. Quiet, I'm cos I don't like the car. Stupid. Don't you dare tell Warren. Liam, toilet please. . You, upstairs now. if should see you have . . Go on then, hurry up . . . If a if I had a car,. . Quick . If I go like this, it means a hug, like that. Did you . . . Right well that's half, and he has another half that goes into one. The last one up the stairs is a rotten egg. Ah . The last one up the stairs is a rotten egg. not allowed, not while we're eating. Remember Warren, remember . Remember when we got the lemonade and put them in lemonade. Hey guys it's my tongue. Yeah,. Don't that. done it. No one couldn't, couldn't they? Well that's leaning up against the wall . . Oh . And all my . I would drag one round the school, I was looking sort of like,like, cos Colin . didn't he? Didn't realise he could gone now . Ah, remember I had ice cream and the stuff have dinner. What kind of house weighs next to nothing? I don't know, what kind of house weighs. . Strip house. Lighthouse. Ha, ha, ha. The lighthouse. What kind of building flies? I don't know. , work this one out. What kind of building . . Hey you calling it you two? . . Told my dad about that one, told my dad about that one, I told my dad about that joke and he chased me from A to B,. Go on you that joke didn't ya? Yeah. . Hm. What you call a cowboy with no money?. Oh Colin. Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha. You told me that ages before that . What about. . what you wanted I can't . What's a crocodile say to a game. Snap. Ha, ha, no look. . Too late,. Oh Steve. Oh Steve. . With a Skoda, that's one. . What I got in my hand? . No, I haven't,. What I've got in my hand? Don't know. . What have I got in my hand? Dunno. What have I got in my. Do you want this one? . You might turn brown. Ah . Somebody . What's on telecom, don't you watch the jokes . I told you my joke about the lighthouse. Oh. What kind of house weighs next to nothing? The jokes I know absolutely vulgar. I know one. My dad's got the . . Ah this . An Irishman, Englishman and a Scottish man. Yeah. And they were playing darts,and shot the Irishman scored erm three ones, useless, the Scottish man went up he got erm, treble fifteen and the Irishman was clever, he went up, he got two , a man walked by, threw the dart, hit a In some cases your pause button the reason the pause button is taped over on this is cos the pause button But I'm not going to am I! That would be a rather silly! It would! Oh you've started it have you? Yeah, course I have! Oh God! Erm I'm going Well don't eat the popcorn! Why? I will do!this morning though. Have you got a wooden spoon there? Mm. Ow! Oh! Oh look at this you messy toad! Well I was thinking we could you know, leave it on while we're on the job! Shut up! Mark! You've gotta let that cook a bit. Yeah. We haven't got any mushrooms have we? No. Put some carrots in it if you want to? Or Sshh! Ooh, Tin of tomatoes here. Tomatoes, yeah that'll do. Okay. Put that in. Oh by the way I've found another tin opener here in the erm in the shed! In the shed? Believe it, yeah it's in better condition than the one we've got! Oh well you don't use it very much. Gotta find it now. No, I've washed it. Oh yeah. I think. Er, where the hell is it? I'm gonna phone mum and dad up in a minute. You definitely don't wanna go over tomorrow? They won't object to being recorded will they? Or rather, just keep quiet, I mean your dad waffles on so much anything he says isn't confidential or anything is it ? No, not really. . Did you take that out or did I? It was already out actually. Was it? Mm. No, don't overdo the spices, it was bit a bit strong last time. Was it? Yep. Oh. Yeah, Paul has erm left that draw up of his it's looks as though the tissue is over-granulating underneath the Ugh! nail bed! Yish! Ish! So I think I'll keep an eye on it and er . Stay! Oh we've got some brie. I think you've eaten most of the cheddar actually. Ooh er You left it at work! I did. Oh Mark! Oh no you haven't left it at work? I have. It'll have to be bis spaghetti bolognaise. Sorry! Oh God! And I keep telling you! I know! Well I keep forgetting I've I've left it in the fridge ! You're a pain! I don't want spaghetti bolognaise anyway! All of it? Yeah. Too late now ! I don't want spaghetti bolognaise! Sorry! I'll have grated cheese on top of mine. Well you can have cheese, I do , I don't have cheese anyway. We haven't got any parmesan have we? Erm And don't forget all the tins go in that box, right? Yeah. Erm Put it in the can bank at the ti I'll put the the back one on and and just boil the the water. Anyway, I'll go and give mum and dad a quick ring and then let them know. I phoned dad briefly So tomorrow we're down town? Yes, but if if we take the dog with us go up the heath and then I go to the hairdressers erm you don't need a haircut anyway do you? No, I won't need one for months. And then we can you know, whatever we want in the afternoon which will be rather nice! Good lord! No work you mean? No. Must get that assignment out though. Well you can copy that out tonight. Oh Shane, who went in the lounge when you're not meant to? Because, he knew he shouldn't of! You're such a pain! Yeah he did that last er last week. He makes me laugh though, I mean, as soon as I came downstairs and he'd been in the lounge He jumps out. the look he gave me and jumped out as quick as anything, I thought Well you can tell he's been there cos of the footprints everywhere! I know but he was so funny, for a dog to be that perceptive, do you see what I mean? As soon as I came downstairs, Ooh God, I shouldn't be in here and out he jumped ! Yeah, he's a pain! Caught weren't you?, you were caught! Yes you were! You were caught! Caught red handed Chassie, weren't you? Ever so funny! .I just gave him a quick brush tonight. I was I can't afford . I'll have to put some other shoes on cos this floor is freezing! Ah,! Won't be a sec I'll come up with you. I'll put the spaghetti on Sue ! Erm Don't mess with his paw! Hey? Not that! brush. Charlie, come on, out! Come on !do not want that I tell you! Oh, that's another twenty quid isn't it? The tissue's gone all, right out, I'll show it to you later, you'll see what I mean. You great big ! That's cos his, when he runs and he tries to get his ball Come here you! Aagh! Got you! Rurghhh! I he s tries to stop for his ball and he erm I'll show it to you later, you've missed it it's obviously really sore. He just puts the hands, the brakes on really quickly! Careful! Ah, jump! I want another cup of tea please? Ooh yeah! Well I've boiled the kettle so you're laughing! I thought I'd going down . Don't know what the . So we're not going up this weekend then? No, I think they might come up. God, we haven't got any Ambrosia le , oh yes we have! We got loads of tins of that didn't we? That'll do! I'll put the spaghetti on. Oh! There's a problem here isn't there? You never know how much to use. I wonder how much she gets for the er Yeah, I was thinking that actually. Wads of dosh mate! Do you reckon it's a full time job, or just a part time one? Do you want some carrots with that? Er! Tinned Yes? ones, yeah. Tinned carrots in there? Yeah. Alright then. Well real ones they're a bit sort of don't really go. I'm breaking up the spaghetti cos I hate it in long lengths! It's a pain in the arse! Bloody Italians haven't got a clue have they? But erm Er oh no, you haven't got it on again! Have you? No, course I haven't! Wouldn't be saying bloody Italians would I ? Plonker! Come on, how much spaghetti do I put in here then? I haven't! Well I just tend to stick it in and see how much there is there. Well I'm putting another load in then alright? Yeah alright then. Just chuck it in, I'm starving! I need loads of food! Well I don't wanna get a whole pile of spaghetti and no filling alright? No er bolognaise. Mm. Oh God! You're making a mess again aren't you? Right put As per usual! . Remind me to open the cupboard down here. We could have lumpy rice pudding can't we? And ice cream.. Macaroni pudding? Mm! Ooof! No, it's yummy, with nutmeg! Gross! With nutmeg and cinnamon, mm! Lovely! I'd rather just have Ambrosia really. You're a bore aren't you? Oh, alright then I suppose. Well keep the old bolognaise stirred so that it heats up all round. So what did your mum and dad have to say then? Well mum said were we gonna come down over the weekend? Well, I mean, we had the opportunity, you know chit-chat job and mum said are we gonna go down over the weekend? I said, oh perhaps they could come up to us you know, I didn't know quite at the moment what our plans were for over the weekend. How many of these er do you want in there? I drain the fluid off Yeah yeah? , yep. Erm have you put the ketchup in? Nope! You'll need to. Don't overdo the ketchup, it makes it all Oh alright, no alright. really rich and horrible! Yeah, alright. Erm cos I I, well I didn't know what you had planned for tomorrow afternoon though. I mean, I would like to go to that auction tomorrow but we can't, I can't go to the hairdressers as well, so What time does the auction end? Nine. Mm mm, no it doesn't leave a lot of time does it? Mm mm. About that? No, I should chuck them all in. Oh I'll chuck them all in, alright. Oh that's tins a , look! I wonder actually if she doesn't mind really. They're already cooked anyway aren't they? Yeah. Well Just heat them up really. no need to heat them up then. Keep an eye on the spaghetti. Any more in there? How much did I put in? About two sort of lengths like that. No, I should put another bit in. Bit more, alright. Well I think what we'll do is one day we'll weigh the amount of spaghetti and then we'll know exactly how much to put in next time won't we? I think I'm gonna get up nine o'clock actually and be quite productive some washing. It's alright, I'll finish the tea up. So Sharon sent me, lent me this, that's sweet of her. Yep. She said that she'd er is she? Well you'll po pop and see Bert and Sharon erm Tomorrow? tomorrow on the way back or something. Cor, you should of seen it with Cindy last night! When I went round there to take the saw back she was er you know her little tail Yeah. it's been cut off hasn't it? Yeah. Well she was just shaking continuously! She barked when I first went round there and she just shook and shook so Why? Well it's just excitement you know, she hardly does doesn't shake! He does, when he gets really excited but he sort of Yeah but he doesn't shaking, her little bum was going out. He doesn't, he doesn't when i , when just ordinary people go round do they? Have you had a lovely week darling? Eh? Darling, get our cos this'll be done soon. With grated cheese on top please? Good lord! Well you'll have to server, cos I can't server I'm hopeless at it! Alright. Have you turned the the heat down? I did on the the bolognaise, yeah otherwise it'll get boiled to a pulp! Ah right. Okay then. Go and get changed. I would have thought you'd be able to heat that stuff up again but Ha! Phorgh! Jesus! No don't, leave it! No, it's fine! I was trying to talk you turn it off then. You're worried about your privacy being invaded aren't you? Yeah, suppose so. Well, there's no need is there? Ooh, it's hot! You're not burning yourself are you Mark? Is this erm is this done then? Ya. Are you supposed to put hot water over like you do with rice? Yeah, I do. Yeah. Otherwise it's all slimy, isn't it? That's right. Yeah. Well you should of told me! Put the kettle on then will you? Okay. It's only just boiled hasn't it? No, no, no, it hasn't cos I've just used it all for the erm No! Or did you refill it? ! I know it's just boiled. Get the plates out for me? Are they the others? No, they're not I was gonna ah da da, don't don't! I'm wanna use that water to heat the plates! Oh. Look, you can serve out for once I'm sta , tired! You do it alright? Alright. All you gotta do is chuck it on on top and grate a bit of that on for me. Oh you can grate the cheese surely? Bring me the bloody cheese grater in the ! Well you just got it out the cupboard didn't you? No it fell out! Where's today's paper? Erm I had, oh it's in in the lounge. Can't have done cos . But last time do you remember this time last year it got so that his foot was really puffy? Yeah. And erm we had him on two lots of antibiotics before he even had an anaesthetic to get the inflammation down and I don't want it to get worse! And he couldn't drink while he was on those could he? He couldn't drink! But erm no, I mean No drink, no sex Charles! He said look you can have these expensive antibiotics, they were intensive ones, said look you know I don't want him to lose his bloody foot just give me some antibiotic! And he co , and how much did he cost me, Charles? Forty five pounds for that foot last year! Well I think you should put him out to work! Get some cash in! Well that's pretty incidental in the morning. Mm. Cos he's bound, I mean with all that mud and everything, I mean there's lots of sheep droppings and god knows what up there isn't there? Yeah I know, it needs treatment though darling. Yeah, I know it still needs treatment but I mean it'll try and get the swelling down a bit. Yeah. Well I don't think that it's swollen. Well it's hot on . Well it is, it is, yeah, it's a, there's a little of flesh but nothing like you know it was when his foot got like that do you see what I mean? Mm mm. Cold water. But the problem is he's so Oh shit ! it seems to have got sort of so much more deformed. Julie's bloody claws! I saw today. Talk of being put And he's running the stocks suddenly. I mean I'm sure it's the same claw cos it's never grown back you see, when he's had it cut off but what the vet was hoping was that the claw would grow back and the the top of of the tissue, see what I mean? Mhm. And what's happened is the tissue has grown and not the bloody nail! Oh I see. And and what Mhm. it has done has just become distorted and it's splitting more away from the nail. That'll be a problem tomorrow . And when they get a bit long too, yeah. I haven't, I'm just going to go to wee and then I'll have do those it'll have to grow basically. And unless we can . Where's Jeff? Ooh ooh ooh! I dunno. You heard biscuit didn't you boy? Yes you Well I know you're not giving them our biscuit but then we just get through . They keep off the That one was soft. I tried it first. Oh lovely! And it was soft as shit and horrible! I hate the messy saucepans, they're horrible! Ugh! Hoo hoo hoo hoo hoo hoo hoo hoo hoo hoo hoo hoo ! You stinker! Do you know I haven't farted all week! No kidding! Apart from when I've woken up I have a . Well then you've farted once then haven't you, at least? No, I've farted once every morning, I love when you wake up. Nothing like a good fart ! You're as relieved as I am. Yep. Ah no! You ! Oh clear it Mark ! No! Want us to cover everyday conversation! If you fart when the tapes running that's your problem mate, not mine! I'm not ! I'll have to do it in there! You better clear that ! So, somebody no doubt has gotta get up there to put them up wrong. Yeah, she was telling us off. Did you put any out? Yeah!aren't they? Well it's pretty difficult actually to put a cupboard up a wall, I admit they're very easy to make up but to actually hold this cupboard. You just drill a couple of holes in the back you need Okay. marking on the wall and drill two rawplugs! I'll be interested. It won't be easy Mark, to put those cupboards up!. Well I bet you they are ! Done. Anyway, I phoned her up the other day to have a little chat with her. Is she alright? She was pleased, she was gonna see Tim. Oh yeah. He's still sort of her back so Mm. Mm. Yeah,. Mm, good luck! What today? Yeah. But anyway sh , they're gonna do lunch for us at dinner time. Oh splendid! So it'll be quite nice actually cos I didn't really wanna go there till the evening. But it will cos we've gotta go darling! Yeah, I know we have. You know what it's like in town,. Yeah. Yeah, Well perhaps cos that's alright. You're then row three? Nearest the bar. In the front row . How big is that ? Even in three days . I would have thought they were outside . Hello it's only me! Well, we've been wondering whether you were still with us. I tried to phone you during the week and mum said where is my little son? I haven't heard a single thing of him! Yeah, I know, the week's gone so quickly that's the trouble! How you doing then? I'm alright. Mum about? Yeah, she, and Bel's here. Oh right! Yeah. I just dropped Sue off. That was sexist! Dropped Sue off at erm hairdressers. Oh I see, she's gonna ah, I was gonna ring you last night. Was she home last night? Er yeah, I picked her up after work. Yeah. Yeah, we were having tea and mum says where's my little son? I haven't heard from him, seen him or anything and she was saying where's Yeah I know. he got to? And I said, well I'm gonna give him a ring after tea and then I, we said oh well pras , and Sue will be home tonight so I said well we hadn't better ring them! So, we didn't do, we didn't spoil anything and ring you ! Yeah. So Hello Mark! Here he is! Hello mum! Are you on your own then? Yeah well, I I pick Sue up a bit later and we'll pop round for a cup of tea. Hello lucky boy! Oh did you get address book look this morning? Er er ah no, not yet. A brown one. Should have, shouldn't he? Cos John did it yesterday. John . Oh gosh really? Er teasing us ! You started quickly ! He's pleased when I don't you? No, it's alright. Been asked to do a survey on the spoken word. So it's Really? just taping conversations, it's Ah! completely anonymous. You don't have to worry about swearing or,Sue swore something terrible in the car this morning! An an how does the machine is It's in there. Oh there? Mm! It's a Walkman but it records and plays and it's got the radio in it as well. You said you have to collect her, from where? Just down town. Oh! She's having hair cut. Oh! Charlie's done his claw in, said he's gotta go up the vet. Claw in? Done his claw in! Done his claw in. Oh! Hurt his claw. Done his claw in. He's hurt claw in! Walking round with ! He's got his claw in ! Bet that must be costly on batteries to er you know. No, I use Nicads Hey? I use Nicads Oh! They give you twenty tapes to use over the week. And that's for collecting erm words so that when they do the new dictionary all those words that people use and they do What they've come into common use. Mm. Yeah, a few Anglo-Saxon ones that yes, they've probably got already listed! But at all I mean, you know, you can get people very embarrassed when whoever is there at the B T ! It's nothing to do with B T! Oh! Who is it for? Well this woman came round last night and asked if I'd take part. Oh! What's it ? And erm Does she want to have her hair nice and short again? I hope. Why do you hope? I don't know, like it like this! There's no charm to it is it? Well, it's alright when she dresses it. Mm. She puts it up in a bun and things like that. Oh sorry! how did she get on at er the course? Mm, jolly good! Said it's given her a bit more drive again. Ah good! Yeah, but the, the ce , the . You know Gerry came yesterday? Yeah I saw them erm and she'd got er little Zoe and er stayed for a couple of hours, had a cup of tea and you know. Not little Cindy,little Zoe ! Sorry? Not little Cindy! Not little Cindy, little Zoe, yeah. Yeah, she sle , little Zoe sat on her lap and just slept like a log, she was obviously tired. Yeah, and little Zoe, did say well she was absolutely shattered perhaps she didn't know what to do with us. No, it's alright. She wouldn't give us a little Probably just thought it was a strange foreigner! Yeah, that's right! That's what I say all this small children are always worried about er my accent. Mummy Was why does Evie talk so funny? They're worried? I'm no , I I'm worried too! I thi I think they're right! Oh! Ah dear! Who's erm kid is Zoe then? Is that erm Sharon's sister's? Sharon's sister Yeah. yeah. Aha. Zoe. Yeah Sharon, erm Zoe and Holly, she's got two girls? That toffee seems to work Marky! Mm. He's he's I'm just getting through this apple at the moment. Yes, you're right, it's got them. Oh, so you're winning then my son? Yep. Better just erm put a note on my door. Here, here. I'm da , oh sorry! Too late Mark before I can . I can fish it out. Well,! Here are! Here are! I thought Stalk sandwich! Mark was having a new girlfriend or something. Because Julie tried several times,yo you're never there! Well, you never know! Your new job is it? Yes, I got er Are these we , are these erm Irriacs Yeah. Yeah, they're quite funny the quality of the things are quite er quite precious, ah? Oh lovely! They're very high erm pulse generators so I'm doing this one very neat. and that one's going back erm They still using these old rubber thingy you don't use heatshrink ones? Yes. No, not the small ones, no. Ah, there's some Coxes down here, that's brilliant! Oh, yeah look out apple! Oh You get these from Aston Aston , yes yeah. only twenty eight pence a pound! I mean, they're not out of the way. So there you are and then the driver board goes on here Mhm. and er they seem to be very pleased with what I'm doing anyway. They pho , phoned last night and said would I collect some stuff from someone in so Oh ! Hello! Are you er , you two? Hello starky Are you alright then? You look all sleepy. You just got up? No, I've been up for an hour! Oh yeah? Hung over from Thursday night! Look at all colours Mark has got! Green, red, white What's this? blue Microphone. He's just had an hearing aids put down for his music. Mm. What's that for then? That for I thought I'd be able to get away this, you know ! With all these non-technical people and they're sort of going, what's that? Is that a a fart thing to measure your farts with! Shouldn't it be round that side? No it's a microphone, recording conversations. With who? Everybody. Oh! I can't imagine that a little thing like a little torpedo takes up the sound! Well there's two mikes in there. Oh! It's what they And they're wear at the studios isn't it? Yeah, like tie mikes and like on Wogan and that sort of thing. What, well who's er conversations are you recording? Well everybody's conversations for to build up the new Lo , Longman's dictionary with the new words and things. You're joking? No. Dictionary? What has a dictionary got to do with it? Well, all the words, the new words go in the dictionary Oh well hang on a minute I've got, I've got one here . Well New words?speaking Dutch ! Where's that dictionary gone with the erm What the one we were using last night? the one without the explanations. No, this woman came round last night Ich Deutsch sprechan Ou a francais Parlez vous francais? Oh, French, mm. With a, with a Dutch accent! You gotta have, some on there then? Yeah! I carry round, all round with me you see. So who, is it a computer that listens to it? Yeah, they put it all in a computer and then all the words are analyzed and from the different accents and all that sort of, pronunciation. Can I wear one then? Well if you take part, if you're asked! No, I I mean I was on the phone and th , there was a knock at the door and this woman came round and said she was from from the Marky! Yeah. Here you are. Oh! Can't Do you wish to eat here? Well it's very nice of you but we're gonna gotta go to Plaistowe cos of Charlie's claw you see? Oh, I don't mind, I'm just And the surgery's only for an hour so I'm just fishing, to make sure to what to organize that's all. I must pop round one evening next week. The week's gone so quickly I've just been sort of, you know. But next week er , oh evening, because you're working obviously! Oh yeah. Well Sue's away next week as well you see. Yeah, yeah. And Sarah was asking after Poeticisms. That's already in the dictionary Poeticisms. they're looking for words that aren't in there! Well this isn't in,th th this isn't Well obviously! Obviously are English Yeah words. they're all words that are already in use, the ones we use in scrabble. Otherwise that wouldn't do would it? An Well and it's something to do with work then? Don't sit No. on the radio dear! I'm not! I'm was leaning on this, look! God I don't this broken, this broke! Do you get paid? Did you, Mark? I'm more worried about the glass! Do you get paid for it? Mm, twenty five pound gift voucher. Which I wasn't told, she said twenty five pounds, so I thought ah, it'll do nicely! Help top up the bank a bit! For Sony? For Sony? No, I think it's probably for Longmans. A gift voucher is er, just as handy, go to the shop and buy something which you want! It's probably a book, it's Let's have a look at the tape? probably a book token! Or something. Why are we all standing? Haven't we got chairs? I don't mind. You can er, it's got a radio, the radio's brilliant! I mean, you can walk, you could This is amazing innit! you can move around, I was sa , wearing it in the kitchen yesterday, you can move around and it's er Can you put my name down? I I'd They're saying that on, just now I was listening on Radio Three But I don't ! and they were saying about people with er, F M problems and they got a big coat hanger Where is this big problem ? in the back of Well it's and they can't get a reception and Mm. anyway they was talking about getting a proper aerial, it's all basic stuff I mean you wouldn't wanna go anywhere where there was confidential things. and they were talking about a new system which I couldn't hear because of vacuum cleaner was on Was it? Was it? erm which doesn't suffer from er multi-path reception Yeah. so i , car radios and things like that the reception will be constant wherever you are because you don't get any noise. They won't listen to it? It'll just be analyzed in the computer. I'm trying, trying to say they need some people to listen to that and you know, to get the new words if that is the case. Yeah, well what you do is they give you a sheet of paper and th , you write down who was involved in the conversation, so all I'd say is, is erm Mum Oh you Dad, or John, Elly or or something like that. I th I mean they're not interested in actual names, so if there's two Johns they put John one and John two. That's the sort of idea. So that if Well if they listen on another tape all the What happens , what happens now that you know that somebody has said something very confidential, you know, a personal matter? Well I just we , rewind it and then tape over You can it. oh, cause a Oh yeah. complex. And how long can, does this tape last? Like if I, if if you know if you say, oh I object to this, then I'd just turn it off and rer rer erase it. Oh right. Well what Oh I see. i it's probably to do with new words like wa wally and things I was quite funny yesterday like that. cos I had it running in the kitchen while we were cooking tea last night and Sue came in and goes a real big fart , and goes oh I haven't been able to fart all week,she says ! And she didn't know ! Yeah. But er according to Sharon she's been sitting alone in er bed and breakfast and erm Yeah, it's a nice bed and breakfast. She's got her own ensuite and er I know, but then she has nobody to chat to chap brings her a cup of tea at nine o'clock. at night cos there's nobody here to have a conversation with. No, I think she was getting chatted up by the bloke who owned the place, really! Mm. Oh yeah? Some chap runs it with his wife. I see. So what time is Sue er coming? Well I'll pick her up Well won't be home will she? about quarter to and I'm coming back here. she's having her hair done. Yeah, get her to wait to do that. Oh God, I've still got the dogs in the car, hang on! Oh! Do you want a hand? Can I just dump them , dump them in the shed quickly? Yeah. I've hoovered up you can't bring them in here! I won't bring them in here, put them in round back. Can you get one? The the door's not open. Haven't got any shoes on. I'll be back in a minute. Show him where the key is. She said she was from the Well it's sort of like market research type type idea. Oh!boy, you might like it. So do you get to keep the Walkman? Cor! If only! And how long do you have? Just a week. That all? Do you wear it every day? All day? Well I dunno whether I'll be able to use at work you see, I'll have to ask the the governor. Oh yes! Yeah. He might not like that at all! I'll reckon they'll say no. They probably will but Yeah. if they do well there's not a lot we can do about it really. Are you sure this works at the moment. , big word. We want to Course it's working! from , that's what it's really is. The sound comes over ! No! What did the ? The sound comes over on what? On the machine, you mean? Yeah, and then hold it up, do you know what I mean? Do want to sit me far away from you, will that still take it? Oh yeah! Will it? Well it's got automatic level control on it. On the recording. It's one of those little mikes they have on television. Automatic? Honestly! Well it just looks at the the signal level coming in and adjusts the gain accordingly. When I shouted in it I thought you were joking. Oh no, that'll just shut down the gain and this Will it really? probably still come out clear, yeah. Mark. Yes, ah well the thing to do is to er go down and hi , hire a Daily Mirror van and wait for Mrs to arrive! Yeah. Well I don't like it very much I must say! I mean, there's your privacy gone! You know? Yeah but it's completely anonymous, and no one 's gonna know I'm talking to you are they? No, I'm trying to say what is behind all this if you really think of it? Well it's beg it's to get the words in everyday conversation Well, isn't it! I don't believe it's true, that's Ha! Well, I don't believe, they are after sound and the difference, you know, I mean you sit like this can you still hear me? Or if you are in the kitchen, mum! Well they're not gonna know! Can you still hear that? They're not they're not, that's already been done hasn't it? They've already, this is a commercial machine this thing, you buy them down at Dixon's. New words! My God surely they don't need ordinary people to have new words, they just look around in universities! That's where they go through for new words! on colloquial No! erm I reckon it's advertising, that's what it is to see whether people are mentioning certain products. Well, have you been using Daz Automatic recently! Oh, dear oh dear ! No, I use ! Well I'm thinking of conversations, you know? That er isn't anything to do with people spying for instance? Oh nobody's gonna talk about that with this are they! No, no, say , I'm talking, that is seeing the advantage of it you see. Say, for instance erm somebody wants to hear your opinion about and and get a, plans to er you know, to to , you you find that out for me, you know that's what I'm saying! Well they wouldn't be carrying a bloody great mike like that Well round would you! you could hide away it. You can't, cos if it goes inside your jumper it ge , the sound all gets muffled. They have to be on the outside right, cos as soon as it goes through a piece of material you'll lose all the high frequency to it. Well, I don't like the idea of it very much ! Don't you ? Well , wearing them out, things like that. The thing to do is is to sort of er plot to overthrow parliament or something and see if there's any reaction! Yeah. I couldn't wait to test it ! Or tell them , tell them there's a few million pounds worth of gold coins in some field! This bloody great hole the next day there ! Bring all the and shovels and ! Do it. Yeah. Yeah. I had to laugh though cos I was talking chap at work and they'd sent round this erm this form right, to fill in about your opinion about the company and everything. And said, so it's completely anonymous and all that and he said oh I can't be bothered to send that in, so he chucked it in the bin and they phoned him up and said why haven't you sent your form in ? That's completely anonymous? I thought, I thought you were going to say we found his form on tip! Something to do with the rubbish, that is. Oh yeah. Rupert Maxwell had everything taped didn't he? All the offices . Oh yes. But who has he got employed to check it? Well he hadn't got anybody that he would trust there you see No, but I mean the whole day, I not even the people he paid talked with a few people Mhm. an and then erm you know, who's going to listen to that tonight, you know, to see what they've Mm. been saying? Mm. You've got to have someone for that as well, you know! Mm. Yeah, and then an can he then can you trust the staff? No, I'll get you sheet of paper on erm what it's about. Oh I didn't bring it with me, I've only got my record book. But the idea is to see you. you fill out a little sheet of paper with the, with the names like John A, John B or whatever, so that if there's another tape and you've marked John B and they missed a word, or what what the word was and they there's a chance that they might use it again later on you see. Probably want some erm articulate people . Yeah. Put down, the Buckingham Palace! Ah, are they articulate? well they obviously use the Oxford Dictionary, not Longmans so Ha! You've heard of Longmans haven't you? The printers? Longmans, yes. Publishers. It's the Longman's er, Dictionary. There's more to it than meets the eye! Oh mum, mum's always So do they had a suspicious mind hasn't she? Yeah. do they, do they erm I mean, how do they analyze it? Well Do they listen and le all the words that they recognize, they leave? Those matches are . But the ones that they're not familiar with they lo look up do they? I don't know, maybe they erm a , they'll listen to the tapes and they probably sample some of the words into a computer to build up a database of words that probably like you said, oh he's getting a lot of jip from his boss, you know, is probably not in the dictionary but if a lot of people said that word then they would. Yeah, that's I meant. Have to has to come into common use before it gets into the dictionary. Yeah. So if it was Yeah, that's right. from actual people That's why it's best not to tell people that you're doing it you see because then they they're careful what they say. Right. You know. I mean, they might but it'll be a classic You can't help doing it though can you? If you'd have made a story up that's it something else, I wo I wouldn't have known it's running. Yeah. Yeah. If you weren't have said ooh I was listening on the phones and just a leave it on, you know the phones. What always amazes me when we play scrabble I mean, things that I consider to be slang you know, on the odd time I thought well I'll try that Well it used to be slang. and I put them in, and I look in my dictionary, they're not there of course, cos my dictionary I had is from nineteen forty six Mm. look in even er ten years later it's there. And tremendous number of of words which were written in slang, they were almost obscenities er Well that's in there, you know. that's why you need to change your dictionary every few That's right. years. Yeah, to keep up. Ooh! Your mother's kicking Ooh my ear! you now! Did you get that? Oh yeah, we've seen it all now! Oh dear! Yeah. Well I'll, I'm going up to the vet so I'll leave it running when we're in the vet. Cos it's all different Have you switched it off now? No. Oh, what's that then? They're the headphones. So you can play back and listen, make sure it's come out alright. Yeah. She certainly has the right bloke to do it. Nobody else would have the patience! You should have a hundred and fifty pound for it, not twenty five! Well it's no big deal really is it? Just a case of taking the tape deck around and if you're not having a conversation yo you can use the radio so I'm not really worried. Oh can you? Yeah! Yeah! Oh! And they supply the batteries? Yep. And twenty tapes which you erm you don't have to use all them just you know, fill what you can Can you keep the ones that you don't use? No, you just give them back. I used one of your tapes you brought me for Christmas yesterday,very nice! Good quality one? Yeah, Mm. in my old tatty machine! Ooh, I've got some questions! Ooh ! Go on then? One will just be a quick, quickie. Erm Pete is Are they confidential? Go on then. Pete's interested in obtaining a tarmac, is it? Erm, no, that's all I know. A tarmac? Erm, it's four track recording. Oh T-ach Oh T-ach Tarmac ! I knew it was something like that. Tarmac you get out of a Yeah. Yeah, I wouldn't know. Handy thing to have if you if your road . Erm You wo won't be able to record a lot of music on it though. Go on A four then. a four track erm Multi-track. Yeah. Yeah. And I told him that you had all the gear and I said that you wanted sixteen. No. Thirty two. No, I was sixteen down the studio wasn't I? What have yo , what have you got now then? I got four track. Four track. Four track on half inch. Oh, half of the tape. Was it a cassette base or erm a reel to reel? No, I said he wants to buy one. I think he wants to buy one. Pete, who's Pete? My ex-boyfriend who's been helping . Pete the strange, the strange, well I don't remem boy. I don't remember Pete. Yes, you do, Peter! Peter? Oh right! Yeah, yeah! After Jonathan. The one who was in erm good lord! I can't keep track! What the one who's er off round the world and oil rigs or something. yeah. Yeah. Is he going back? Oh yeah! I gotta take him some letters. Have you? Well he's been helping me with things. Is he a musician then? Well he plays quite a bit of guitar. Yeah? And he wants to know where he can buy them in Ipswich. Oh oh! And that's why he's not at home. So There's quite a lot of second hand if he's willing to travel around for them. Yeah. Depends what he wants. But I mean er you can get cassette based ones which are quite cheap and cheap to run cos you just use, you know, good quality metal tapes and you get four tracks I think they even make a six track one now, or an eight track. He only wants four. Erm Er Norwich Road. Well Marky I thought I'd just be practical and ask you, it's quarter one to , quarter to eleven you go and collect Sue. Cor I'm gonna have to, I'm gonna have to go soon! Yeah. Yes. Now listen Yeah. and how long are intending to stay so we can I'm still not here? Well, the surgery's at half eleven till half twelve so we pop back here for a quick cup of tea and I want to go up to Felixstowe. Mm. Cos Charlie, you know, keeps digging rabbits up and he's knackered his claw! Oh right. So, you'll just have a cup of tea with a nice piece of chocolate cake? Cor yeah! Sounds good! And then afterwards Isobel and I could go to Sainsbury's that's the whole idea. And er Oh right. you are very welcome to stay for lunch but you say you can't. You stay with father and mother don't you? I thought you go out tonight? Yeah, well we would stay but the, the surgery's only an hour you see, that's the trouble. Yeah but with her father and mother? Oh yeah! Go go after that? Mm. Probably , mm? Well, Sue's hurt her shoulder cos she was carrying her bag on the train you know coming back from Birmingham. Was it too heavy then? Well, women they must pack the whole wardrobe don't they? Mm. So how's her shoulder, well a bit of heat and shoulder massage it would help. Right, have a massage, yeah. Yeah. you better go otherwise she will be annoyed! Standing there, you said quarter to eleven! Did I? Oh, yeah well better her standing than me really! Cos the car's bigger. Yeah. Erm Where is it then? Yeah, and you can't park. Colourful boy isn't he, ha? ? Did you say? , on the Norwich Road, might be one. ? ! in Norwich. Yes. Keyboards. And there's they might do the machine. But the mainly keyboards but 's your best bet. . They do quite a lot of stuff in there. They'll definitely have something. in Norwich. Waste of money though. Is it? Well he's got thirteen hundred. Better give me some then! Yeah. I'll sell him my machine for five hundred quid. Did you don't you want to sell it then? Well it's a bloody great thing innit? Well Half inch tapes at twenty five pound a reel for the tape. Whereas cassette you can, you know Did you want to keep it? Oh yeah! Right. Yeah. Righto, I'll be off in a bit then! How long was I then? Fifty five! Oh give me a break! Darling you were! Yeah well I didn't wanna have to sit here waiting for you, cos I know you every time you say oh so and so Yeah, alright I mean okay! as far as I was concerned you might have been in there another fifteen minutes! Anyway I got chitter-chattering with mum and dad. Must chuck the dogs in the shed for a bit. Yeah, give them plenty of room. As the frame came down and Bunny, came out and Bunny was sitting in the driver's seat again! Pest! Anyway I've put it on Access so that that helped! Oh don't worry we'll get out of it. They spotted the mike straight away you know! Did they? So I'm never gonna get away with it at work am I? No, you're not, you mus , oh don't! Oh no, what I mean is I'm not gonna be able to get away without people No knowing cos it'll make them think about their language won't they? A bloody good job! Do I wanna go this way or go up round? Go any way you want to go. So, what do you reckon? Haven't had a chance to look yet. I'm just trying to get past these cars. I'll tell you I'm going back to Lucy next time, she's, she's alright Vivien but she hasn't got it like Lucy, she's not as particular. No don't! Well that's why Lucy's so Yeah, I know, well I'll book two weeks in advance. busy. That's right. They only a pay a quid more for Lucy, so I'm bloody well gonna have Lucy! Anyway, it's cut but it's not . Oh oh well done anyway. Oh well we can go for a cup of tea now, I need some breakfast I'm starving! Mum's making a cup of tea and a nice piece of chocolate cake. Oh brilliant! I need more than that I'm starving! Anyway, give us a kiss. Your cheeks are cold again. I had about two inches cut off actually. Well, it's a lot better than Oh yeah! Oh yeah, it's got a little fringe on there! Yeah, well it's a lot better length, you know, it was too long and it's much nicer this length, much more manageable I found. It desperately needed a cut though, it was really irritating me! Bloody building's a real eyesore isn't it? Jesus! Disgusting! It really irritates me! I can just imagine what it's gonna look like in a few years when it gets So can I. dirty, you know. Rough! Ugh! Don't! Never mind won't change when I put it up, so, that's all I care about really. Well it's not all I care about but You said that so so damned ! No one 's gonna build anything. I know. Good! Oh, I know what Pam didn't bring, she was saying ooh you know apparently they've shut up all the entrances, the gaps in the fences cos they want to encourage erm wildlife to be on the back, on the mere an and not dogs and that! So she said, you know, they were They fenced what? They, you know, at the back of us they've blocked up the fences but I don't know whether she's got it right, I don't know. I said well Scott, you know, said that if you know, we ever take our dogs on there he erm would give us a ring and he hasn't. Or we would know, you know. Yeah. So I hope they're not gonna say we don't want you on there cos of wildlife stuff. Oh shit! Yeah, but he doesn't own the bit behind us does he? Course he does! Ah, no I mean the I thought you meant the bit beyond the field. There's not really wildlife in it's just a back grass area! Well I know. So what what Unless it's long, you won't get anything in there. what Bonnie was saying was erm don't you mean the common area bit, you know, the bit at the back? She didn't seem to know, I thought well I'm not really No. worried about it I'm sure! And if he is doing that I don't think he'll mind us going on there cos the other dogs that have started walking on there, do you know what I mean? Can't really stop that Well I haven't much. Well I haven't many really. But if you walk through there I bet you haven't boarded those . I mean No. Sally was talking about it. Yeah, well she should of, she should she's a bit have had that. Yeah I know. And she ooh you know I've spoken to Scott and asked him. And I thought yeah I know mate, you might of now but you bloody well hadn't a year ago well I said well so I said before we even put the on the field once we'd phoned him up asked. Alright, alright she said. And I bloody well know that when we you know, first moved there and we're in the caravan she hadn't asked him and they'd already been there eighteen months! Felt guilty as hell the first time I went on there! Yeah, but you did have permission. Well that's me all over isn't it? Yeah but we had permission. Not for the first time. We did! No, it was the day we went to get Bunny I think wasn't it? The day you went to get Bunny and I had terrible hay fever. Oh yeah, on the common land. That common land doesn't belong to Scott though. That belongs to that other git! Yeah. Er Before we went on Scott's land we had permission. Right, come on then! Ding dong! What's this for? Oh it's quite good, to stop people tripping over. Cos Oh! you thi , you look at it, you stand here in poor light it just looks like the stain's continued through. Yeah, true. So you try and put those on. It's a good idea really. Mm. Dee dee dee dee dee dee . Come on then! Hello! Hello! Back again! Hello! Hello! Hello! How you doing? I'm alright John. And you? Here's one Sue battle of the sexes. Very er very er Yeah, had it all cut John, it was too innit? long. Yeah. Ooh ooh! How you doing then love? I'm alright John, really. Look at that fringe! Just a bit er my shoulder absolutely killing me carrying those bags yesterday but apart from that I'm absolutely fine. It all went off alright did it? Oh good! Yeah. Yeah, it's alright I mean Be , Birmingham's an absolute dump but there you go! Yeah. Hello! Are you alright? Good morning. I've put the kettle on for you. Ooh yes please! And a nice chunk of chocolate gunk! She's she's cut it well. She hasn't cut it badly Barbara, she's not, she's not as good as Lucy. And I think it's I said to her when she was cutting it, I said look you know one side's longer than the other and er she re-cut it and er I still think it is, slightly when you have that Let's have a look. turned under a bit more. No, it's that side. Isn't he? No, you look alright. It's much softer than it was. Yeah, well the you move your head around so it's You've got that cut just difficult to sort of analyze. I know, but it's better it was too straggly. Got this sort of silky look hasn't she, now? Marky! Oh thank you very much. Yes. Piece of er chocolate cake, Sue? Yes please, and he's starving! We didn't have a chance for breakfast this morning. Ooh my God! Do you want toast as well? Ooh yes please! What time's surgery, half eleven innit? Yeah. Yep. It's very cosy to have you here. Mm mm. Swelly's here! Oh is Swelly here? Yeah. I'll go and see Swelly! Yeah,Yes, Where is she then? She's in her room. Haven't you had breakfast either? No. Well apart from half a slice of bread an so some orange. Ooh well . Who first? We didn't even have any jam. We had three pots of jam in the fridge and they were all empty! Who did that then? I dunno. Sue is ju and the pots back in the Well gotta make a good breakfast. Mm mm. Better lay the table. Will that do, jam and marmalade? I can smell gas. to. Erm marmalade or something. Oh, is that one that's left. Yeah, I'll eat another one. You want to get off. Cor, can I have half a banana on mine? Yep, you can have banana. I'm sure Sue would like banana as well. Oh! Well if I had known, do you like ? Erm Or ? I'll have a bit after my toast. I'll have a bit after my toast. Right. Oh aye, Mark you didn't say anything you're so modest . Now,. Cold again out there. Yeah. It is cold. It's lovely! Where did they ? Oh what was it called? It's erm a cancel for a holiday form. holiday? On the holiday . Oh you got some smoke problems there as well On the holiday? John. Yeah. No, it's erm, just What, the study of ? Yeah. Cos mum should of shut the door so that the wood has er So, oh you know. Yeah. Yeah? Where do you want this? It's all, it's all very interesting actually and erm so she did . Gotta get, I'll find er probably needs rebuilt. Talking on the subject and then it's, they're talking about genetics and things . Oh, it's all the Can you keep up with it? Well it you can? Well, yes and no really, it's all related to D N A and cell division and they're really getting into different sorts now of how cancer is occurring. It's really very interesting! Oh! Do you have to study at night then? Yeah, I have been cos I've been bored really so all I do is study. And read books. Look at the colours you got in that! John you got smoke Yeah ! coming in the room! But erm Mm, that's just coming off the doors. Yeah I've got to do a project, I'm gonna do a teaching package at work and See, that's gonna burn off I now you see. can teach the others at work. Oh I see you it's a tarred all with the fronts of Yeah, tarred the Yeah, just a bit you see, else, because of wood Oh blimey! Makes a lot of mess dunnit? Yeah. Mm. So they what would that be Yeah but that's the old tree, that came down Yeah. years ago! Well, yeah Yeah. That'll be all dried out by now. Well it is dry but it's still full of resin innit? I mean it does make smoke er maybe . Is that ? Well it's cheaper. So er so I I remember I had to do one once, ear, nose and throat and everything and you're explaining to them where the the erm adenoid and tonsil and tissue was and oh my god talk about Mind you, I mean it must be They were up the level that I was some woman that have but perhaps they've required so much more knowledge in the Well it might be. that you, you notice it more. Yeah. Right. But but no, you used to think they're doing, you're doing a good service aren't you? Mm. I mean not all of them are like it but No. but, but some of them, you know. Yeah, a bit irritating! But er What's wandle Wandle They're not all of them are that committed Oh wandle to listen . Wandle What the hell's wandle Oh! Did you find it very depressing? Erm no, not really everything I'm getting really paranoid about the smoke coming in the room! he said that totally run of the place . Have you bought a new set John? You used to have I mean wooden ones. They did it in X-ray ward and No. quite cos he it's nothing much at all this is the one . They kept their coats for for . They get a lot of use and play all the time. But erm no it's alright. Oh! So, were th were they different? Quite a successful game really isn't Erm it? they're not necessarily You wouldn't mind the royalties for that anyway! . Look at that it fits it perfectly! And we have a lot of experience. The other co , other things come and go but It's now up to them. Scrabble goes on forever. You know, it's like Heinz beans! And erm And it, I went to Birmin , Birmingham Children's Hospital I eat, oh where you going? Oh ! and it was very to actually go to a children's Two. ward Yeah. and actually see Shit! and the way you got but er they you know. You know, it's alright in our manager levels but if you go higher than that then I mean they're just useless! Mhm. Waste of space really compared with a , paediatrics cos they er hey haven't got the forethought or the . Mm. You know what I mean? Whereas you I mean it's great you go into Birmingham Children's Hospital and it's red and blue and green and balloons and it was great! And, and we've just had our walls repainted and I furious with with erm Rita cos all she we , all she got was these bloody pastel colours I tell you if I was Ah for kids? out for blood! The place is , red and blue and greens. They're they're alright for mature adults aren't they? Eh? They're alright for mature adults but pastel shades are too They're boring! boring for children aren't they? You know I mean kids like a bit of colour and that's right! and Mickey mice and mouses or That's it! whatever you call it? I mean we've got all that, you know Mm. but we're not allowed to put posters on the walls you know, it's better for them to stick them at Mm. or something. Why not? Are they worried about destroying the Well no well paint? Well use Well Blu-tac or something can't you? That's right! Well no you'd be amazed what they do, if you leave Blu Blu- tac up for a while how it actually takes Yeah, marks or the paint as well Yeah. . And erm their consultant he really annoys me he erm The silly part about it though he's one of these they should have panels Sue, in a children's ward! Yeah, that's right. Yeah, but we do You know have panels John but then long, long plain pieces of area you could Yeah. easily, you have to put roller over, you know, a quick That's right. job and use that for poster area and not touch the rest. But you'd be amazed actually the few small bits areas there are, cos they put the, well the nice thing is it's a light building and there's loads of windows everywhere Yeah. and there aren't big stretches of wall. I mean Mm. I said to Cathy, look, why don't we get the polytechnic to erm, do a mirage? I think she thought I was mad! And I said, look, get them to do a section of mirage and then it up on the ceiling Mm. all the way across. Well can't they paint it straight on in the mi , on the ceiling? No. Sistine Chapel job! You're joking! Yeah. Well like, remember that programme we saw when they they did that thing for the kiddies' hospital didn't they? That's right. Er Anneka Rice thing I might have a go actually see who I can get to do it. and she erm they got these What is it? people in to paint all the corridors, this place was really dowdy wasn't it? Yeah. All I mean our place is nothing like that, I mean it isn't dowdy but they can probably put up wall coverings, scrap piece of paper, and they were drawings that the kids had ju , had drawn for us you know, and we said, look here mate, get stuffed, you know! Well the thing is Sue that so many people don't have any feeling for chi for children like that Yeah. do they? That they do their work and th and and Mm. they're conscientious and everything but the a child's painting is seen ju a bit of scrap paper! Mm. But I mean that's a child's expression and that's Mm. their work an an That's right! you know if you were pre , you can communicate with the children through that piece of paper Yeah. but if you That's right. destroy it, there, you've lost contact with them, even I know that! Mm. Mm. Breakfast is ready I think John. Breakfast is ready! Ooh look at that! Marky can you put it on the table please? What are they? Oh, apples! I thought they were potatoes! So erm we shall see anyway. Oh well done! Well done, yeah! , Sue. Whoosha! It's so hot or what? Thank you. No, I just dropped it. No, it . Come on Sue, grub up! Right yep. Toast and jam mate! Ooh ooh ooh ha! I think he did. Half a banana. Cheese and sprouches There's a good word for,sprouches Er now, what's that? I'm glad you found it successful. Yeah, so it's it's it's good John. Oh sprouches yeah! It's good for me , you know, get my brain going again! Two they alright? Yeah. How old are And er these cakes? They're . It's very Are they? interesting actually, how the, how the advanced drugs work, I've never looked into in that detail. Yeah but I made those, the biggest one for . Yeah. the chain And the other is mine. what actually happens to each Right. section of the Sue! are they getting Tuck in. down She is. to the nitty gritty? I mean I had a Where did you get it from? a marvellous story before But the mum of it's a bit like John says, it's alright. That's right. English and enable you to understand Mm. Oh hang on! No, that's John's, piggy! Alright. That's yours. There you go. Oh thank you! I'm getting spoilt. Yeah I should think that's quite Splendid! er ! quite interesting. Ooh butter . Oh, butter! I've got it over here, it's alright. Yes, it's erm I I watched a it's really good! on er Open University about er er these er drugs designed to you know er well Yeah. a lot of them were too complicated for me to explain to you but I mean I appreciated the the miracle of it all, like they could actually take the thing to pieces Yeah. to that extent, you know. Yeah. And they got it down to, not the bricks but the sand that the bricks was made of because Mm. Oh here you are John, here's a piece of cake. Anyone else, piece of cake? Cor, finish me! There's half a Chocolate cake? banana for you. Mm. Don't eat it all! Mm. Oh is it home made? I passed a great big pile of wood in a ditch yesterday afternoon and I Bet that was painful! and I reached down to er gather the wood up but that was too far to go and Are you having fun Marky? Marky? Well it's just that dad said he passed a great big piece of wood, I said that must have been painful! This is my little trick too. Sprouche and . Like this you see. Any excuse! Mm mm , it's my little trick! It's like the er the honey and the Yeah. and the su and the stuff. Mm. What are you doing? Well I've just been back , haven't been yet. So I shall again. Yeah, so we're gonna have a dossy day today. Was the train journey very tiring? No,no well not really Elly, trouble is I had my bag with me and erm it's carrying it across the Underground but it's quite a way across the Underground cos you have go Back pack that's what you need, definitely. Yeah I know, but I don't I know they look awful I ca , oh I'm not bothered about that but I can't be bothered to buy one just for four Jus weeks. no, just borrow mine. Mm. If you want. But tha that will stop your back ache. Well I'm just not gonna take as much stuff. Erm, you have to go from Liverpool Street on the Circle Line to to Moorgate and then get the Northern Line to Euston. I can get another train from there. And London is still as grotty and as horrible as I suppose! Well, I was actually im , very impressed with the Underground cos I do , I haven't been to Euston before and the Underground is really I mean, it's modern but it's clean and it's actually And it's smoke-free now isn't it? loads Mhm. and loads better and th the Underground And they keep them a lot cleaner now. Yeah, that's right. Cos of fire and things. Loads better, really looking better. Oh right! Well the Charing Cross disaster probably Yeah, exactly. kicked somebody's arse! Mm. So, it's it's certainly loads better. I mean, Birmingham's a dump, but I mean Mm. the area where I am I mean it isn't too bad but it's, it's not brilliant by any means, no. But I mean the B and B's alright and er they've paid for me to have an ensuite room and a quite reasonable breakfast so Right here. Mm mm. You got a big Well do you think of our Sharon then? Mm, yeah. Did you hear about our Sharon? Mm! Mm! Got her job. Great! Mm! Yeah. Her sister, the daughter-in-laws are making a take over little by little! That's right. Or Cathy, she'll soon . Mm, I don't know about that Elly. Well,possibility. You're probably in charge anyway! Yeah but I've got to the move to the next ward soon. What's that? Well the big there's gonna be big problems really because erm there used to be two of us that were F grades, yeah? Well there used to be just me but then they've employed another one and we were so fed up with being on nights that we said look, I'm afraid we've had enough of this, you know so she I said to her how about you allocate us each to a ward you see I've got to do it for a week haven't I? So I know but you don't have to do it every single day do you? Why not? I'm not talking dirty or anything are we? No of course. I should of said it. Have you got to do it when you ? No, you have though. You know what happened last time I did that ! There you go! No chance! Oh my God, it's a big one! Don't flick it though! Fworr! God! No wonder he was keen to get going! Oh! might be the same as you. can't be that long. We're not having too early a lunch are we? I hope not. Cos I'm not very hungry at the moment. Oh it's just nice to have a dossy Saturday, know what I mean? It's lovely in here sheltered from the wind. I know. This time last Saturday we were frantically doing that painting. before it got dark. Yeah. Ooh! Lucky's here! Alright? He's come to say hello. Mm. Chassie! Both bigger than you, you've lost three ! How old's yours? Five months. Oh right, yeah. Hello! Who's over here? There's your old puppy. Come on big boy! I better get hold of him. Don't seem to slow down when they get older do they? Yeah. Quite frightened cos he don't know you . Come on Charlie! the dog. Go on, go with . Go on then. Come on ! Come on, let's go! Eh? Charlie! Charles, come on! Shall we go up here or round there. Shall we go up through here? I don't mind. Charlie this way! It's a bit cold up on the field isn't it? Put the brakes on. Come on! Well watch that claw! At least he hasn't gotta worry now . I'm sure it was that give him trouble . Yeah,. Well you know, you know it Put one in, put the pill in, put another one in. Yeah, literally! Mm. And you've gotta get them like this so he sees the next one coming so he doesn't think ooh, he's seen this, he's thinking of this one and not this one. Oh He just gulps down the one he's got! That's right. That's right, he doesn't think sort of, does he? Come on sniffy! Here are, here's your ball! Chassie, bally! Bally, come on! Come on! Charles, come on! Morning! Morning! Morning! Good morning! Charlie, come on! Has he hurt his paw? Yeah. Hello ! Oh! Go on! Thanks! Cheers! Come on you! What would your life be without dogs, eh? Quieter probably. You love it! You know I think he mocks! No, I can see . Mark! Do you remember that Saturday I remember sitting on the stairs, Mark, look what I've seen in your paper! Well I did promise you a doggy didn't I? I know. I know you were good. Ow! Look what I've seen in the paper Mark!,ca can we go and have a look? Well we don't really want a long-haired ! Well can we go and have a look anyway Mark? Mm. Come on! Then we went and had a Get your ball! look and this bastard comes thundering up that road and you go oh my god! No! Oh no! But then you were the first one to say to me when we took him out, oh what do you think? Didn't you? Oh he was alright once he went out wasn't he? Yeah. Oh no! The horses! Honey, you better go and get her! Ooh my god! Bloody hell! I'm amazed! She's not here. No, Honey don't go in there! Honey. Honey out ! Out! Out! Honey ! Out! Hey! eh ! Come here! Good girl. They would of . Mm. little dog at one of the horse and they kick its legs and that was a nasty blamed the dog. Good idea that you know,. Yeah, well they get they're probably used to the horses actually er, dogs. There's people with dogs down here all the time aren't they? They've all got little rugs on! Keep them warm? Yeah, that's what we use them for but I'm sure she's running. Oh god I wonder if we'll have kids that want ponies Oh god! Oh no, no no, no, no, they're not gonna have ponies or football! If our kids wanna go to the football it'll be well erm You can ride ponies but I don't think we could actually afford one. go and do a paper round and you can go then can't you? Don't think we can afford to erm keep ponies. Got nowhere to put them anyway! I wouldn't, erm, I wouldn't have er horses or ponies unless we had Well you, would you couple of acres at least to put them on. If it came to it you could keep them at the Chestnuts over the road. Bonnie, come on! Bon! And stable them. We could build a stable, put them at the bottom of the garden and how expensive the Stables at the bottom of our garden? Yeah. We could always ask Scott if we could put them on ! I know, the Chestnut is over the road. Chestnut? Oh what the er well would they Erm well I supp what is her name? Oh yeah! Mandy. Do you reckon she would er yeah. Oh right! But, I mean horses are expensive So they're not all her horses then? No! No, no, no! Oh I didn't reali , I thought they were all hers. No! She has erm you know, people keep their horses there. So what does she do just maintain the stables? Yeah. They so , cos they bi , built some new stables didn't they? , yeah. Yeah. But er, no I don't know I hope not! I sort of looked on the on the board and saw a thirteen two pony for sale been shown last year so it's probably a sort of a working man's pony, you know, that sort of class. Yeah. A thousand quid! Cor ! And it looked a nice pony one. A thousand quid, you've gotta be joking! They nick your car away. Well if the steering lock's not on obviously quite easily. Yeah but if the key's not in there and you turn the wheel it locks in straight away anyway! Yeah, that's true. Or you could do an Arnold Schwarzenegger, just go break the lock! Yeah, the trouble with the steering lock is the same Ford or an Astra. Possibly. I'm in fifth gear give it some welly! Well you're still in third. I know. Well you won't you spoilt it. Come on! Cor blimey,in this bloke! Look out a car. Cor that's seen some service! It was knackered! Did you see it ? Yeah. Shot away. It's time to get in the bath again. It's gone ever so quickly, these have grown up. I know, nice though. Mm. Are we gonna be here all day now then? I don't think so, no. goody good! There we go! Right. When has Charlie gotta start on his pills then? Well they they've halved the tablet twice a day to get into the . Until that's what I've gotta do. Right. This car is a mess! Yeah, you'll be driving this one well I'll have a new one. Oh no! I'm the one who deserves a new one I've been driving around in a van for three years! You're gonna have Wait! a new one . No, you're gonna have this one, you're gonna No I won't. continue with your old one. No I'm not! Chas, here, wait! Well, I'm just concerned about cats in there. Wait! Wait! Wa You got the key Sue? You gotta lock the boot up. You've got to lock the boot. The boot you've gotta lock! Alright. Oh dear! Well you can Wait! quickly wipe it up while I get them a drink darling. Just dump it at the door there. This do , gate's jamming isn't it? Yeah it is. Ah dear! It's so swollen. Oh Honey, we've just taken you out! Hello trouble! Hello dear! Hello. an hour. Hello my love, how are you? Yeah so we o , we ordered the part . We're coming in. It's cold. It's freezing It's cold isn't it? in there. Mm. Oh! But it's not quite as cold today as it was yest , you know during the week cos it's then erm I think it's colder today Hello Derek. than it was yesterday. Hello Mark. Do you really? He's duffed another claw in anyway so Yeah. more antibiotics! More money! More bills! Yeah, I know. What do you think's gonna happen then? He's been doing it last year on this foot mm, I think it was claw. Check my shoes. Yeah. All infected Yeah. Yeah. he had two lots of antibiotics then and an anaesthetic. Mm. Well now he's done this one This one on this foot. Yeah. So what happened, I thought the nail had broken off, well I knew that and I Yeah. thought erm that the tissue was growing but then I looked at it last night and it was a bit Oh! Yes. and er perhaps I thought it was infected and she said yeah animals, he's got, I mean we've caught it early, so Yeah. so he's only got the we had wrong but Yes. erm and he's not No. but it's it's not, just looks and it will do for a while. Yeah, yeah he he he doesn't particularly like you touching it, cos it's er still No. a bit sore. When he gets on to the old antibiotics he Good lord! I see. Good old twelve, thirteen quid! Ooh, goes quickly , I know he's terrible! I mean, Honey, considering she's older, touch wood and, you know hardly She costs a penny! Yeah. And she off of you and Yeah. That's it. He's a hooligan! Isn't that infuriating though! Well no. Oh oh oh oh! Yeah, that's the trouble innit? It's like all these things they say when you go to the vet and that. Well, when you think how much they must earn in an hour cos Sue was only in there ten minutes! Yeah, yeah. So it's twelve pound, well I mean that's the tablets And that because she wanted a chat the same as me. Yeah. So do you like my hair? Yes! I've had a Elizabeth Taylor! Ooh I say! Oh oh dear ! What do you you mean, oh dear? I said you look like More bills, more money see what I mean! Elizabeth Yeah ! Taylor. Yeah, yeah! Why Elizabeth Taylor? back in erm What do you mean? Cleopatra ? No I was thinking that I've seen her perhaps I was thinking, you know, you remind me of it. What a cheek! She don't remind you of anybody she is who she is! No I meant one of the film actresses that has it done that way or something, Well it was long and it was straggly and it got on my nerves! Oh! So I thought I'll have it cut to this length. Mhm. I see, mm. You don't like it father? No, oh yes I do, yes, yes. I was trying to think, you know Much thicker than . Yes. Oh! Well I think We're getting it we're getting there are we? you look Yeah. Yes,yo you are actually. Ooh ! Splendid! Sue's gonna make one when we get home so that'll be two apple Yeah, she will. pies! Oh! Can I have a drink? I'm gasping! Yes dear. Erm yep, you know we're gonna have one, ooh I'll show you these bed covers you done, have you ? What dear? Can I have some of this grape juice? Oh yeah. Oh it's already open that's alright. Yeah. Apple pie, ha! Well how you've been doing this week? Er well it's gone on very quickly actually. I've just Has it? erm Well you've had plenty to do haven't you Mark? The dogs and everything to see to. Yeah, it's amazing, you get home take the dogs get them their food, have some tea, and it's sort of half past eight you know. Half past eight, that's right, yeah! And by that time you're a bit tired and you think Go on. cor what Yeah,fo was hoping to get more done but ooh that's Yeah. funny! Well you can't erm you can't do miracles. You've only got one pair of hands. I just played around in my studio a bit really and Yes. watched the telly and Mm. do a bit of O U and se about it really, ha! Yeah. And it's Friday again. Yeah. A a as I say it do it does go quickly when you you know, work, as I say, you got the dogs in the morning, the dogs in the evening and you got to feed them and Mum an , mum and dad expected me to come up last week Did they? Mm. Some time in the evening and er Yeah. I don't know how you could of done it! I just er didn't get round to it. No! As I say, if you by the time you get home and then you got to exercise them erm and then you've got to get back and feed them and then feed yourself and keep warm and think of you know, what you got to wear the next day the time's gone! That's right, and I've I got the er pen finished off on Sunday. Oh you did? Yeah. Cut a hole in the shed and Yeah. and erm Oh that's good! you know, got them a Is it alright? bit of soft yeah! I mean they've kept it re really clean! I mean, I haven't had to clean it out at all. Good! You know, so they obviously think it's like the floor in the house you know. Yeah. Yeah. Oh that's excellent! Which is quite handy. Yeah. It's a lot neater and we've cut the door down to size so that Mhm. and er ooh it's an . Erm yeah cos you know before we had the fence and then there was a gate which was quite tall? And I've cut Yeah. I've cut a bit off that, about a quarter of it Yeah. so it's the same height as the fence and Yeah. put all the posts in. Mhm. We've got loads of fencing left Yeah. which we're gonna put along the top of the house. Then we Aha. can grow some so honeysuckle or something up it. Yeah. Good idea! Mhm. We can all use it, can't you, for , you know the when you're organize the whatever , the actual garden you can erm use it for well anything you want! That's right. Things that you might be able to grow. Pastry making, eh? Yep. Poor old Sue was absolutely whacked when she got home last night! Bet she was! Yeah. I bet she was ! Just crashed out! I did the tea Yes. she wanted to watch this film, I said no you don't get into bed you know? Yeah. She was asleep within ten minutes. I bet! Best way er And she's full of beans again this morning. Yeah. They are a I mean, quite honestly these courses are these things erm they're not gonna do them you know, they're not just sort of fairy things you've got quite a bit of erm thinking to do and and so on and they're pretty exhausting! Yeah, it's er Even so they're not gonna do them been getting pretty technical. Yeah! Well she ought She was telling me a bit about it. All these new sort of, genetic techniques and stuff Yeah. like that. Yeah. Yeah it's not Bit beyond me! Mm. Not very erm easy to er when you, you can't just sort of er and Sue being you know, the type of person she is she's erm only gonna do it er very enthusiastically, isn't Mm. she? She's gonna put all that she's got into it, yeah. Well she said it's given her a new sort of er zest for the job, you know. That's right. Doing this course. Yes. Because it's a different erm different outlook or as you say, different erm a different thingumabob with regard to the job altogether. How long have people been making pastry for? Mm? How long have people been making pastry ? Yeah. Years and years Yes. Years, as you say. Yep! And then you , fill up the holes do you? Well, I do. Not like some people are a bit bored but Oh when I used to think when I was a kid and the stuff I used to eat, you know there's Yeah. uncooked pastry and That's right yeah . and I erm and and clean out It used to be the treat! the bowl when mum made a cake. Ah! I think that's disgusting now! Ugh! I don't think it's disgusting, I think it's lovely I do! I used to do that when my gran used to, when I was a little girl when erm, my grandmother used to make cakes and she always used to save it for for me. Mm. You know? There are. But you like a lot of sweet things when you're a kid don't you? Yeah. That's right. Whoops! when it comes up on, next year Got some flour on the table. Yeah. you releas , your allowance is acceptable you see? So you've gotta accept it in a a form Yeah. What's all this paint doing here? You been painting something? No. No, we're going to. Oh you got er We've gotta do Matchpots have you, or something? Yeah, we done that. Mhm. And we've sorted out what we want. Can I make Yes. a cup of tea mum? Oh course, dear! Is that alright? I should of put the kettle on for you but I thought you were busy with old father time here so I didn't er Sorry! Have you made one? No I haven't dear, that was one We did earlier but not er it's not erm thingybob now so, you will need erm you will need er put the kettle on again. Yes , I've gotta do the ceiling in the white and then we can start on the colour but we've we have with Matchpots what we have erm established that you can put the paint on on that er, the paper, that paper Yeah. Mm mm. so that will give a sort of a background imprint you know? The way I've got it in Mhm. Excuse me, please. we'll get it Yeah. I'm tired now mate. You are? Yeah. Sorry! Erm Looks good! You're tired darling cos you can actually relax now instead of thinking oh I've got to do the dogs now or you've got to do something else! Yeah. That's why you're That's true. feeling tired. So, you ain't gotta run round like a blue-arsed fly! Now I wonder where you got that expression from? Did dad tell Oh you this morning I went take that tape off darling. Well I'm gonna, tell them later. Did you darling? Dad tell you what? Did dad tell you what happened this morning? No, why? We had a call at twenty past six on the telephone Pardon? Hello. Can we come in? Just passing thought we'd pop in. Thought we'd come and say hello. Like your motor Spen! Oh hello! Yeah smart! Don't wanna wanna swop it for an Astra do you? Oh! Er well you germ-ridden person! a little while. Hello. How you doing? Oh no, not ill! She is, she's a germ-ridden person! Want a cuppa! No it's alright Sal, really we've had erm our fill at mum and dad's. Watching videos are you? But we thought, since you're in the area we'd come Idle! and say hello. Is it a good movie? Thelma and Louise. Thelma and Louise, I don't know. Come and see the kitchen look, come and Oh yes then. see the kitchen. How are you, alright? Hello boysie! Oh! I'm fine. It's just the wife eh? He's really ignorant! Oh I know! Ooh! Hey! What a difference! Quite a nice thingy innit? Oh no, it's nice Sal! And they've made a good job of tiling haven't they? Yeah, it's alright that. Oh you should of seen it Mark! Before? Ya, I mean Bit iffy was it? Erm we're going Different. we're gonna finish the wallpapering Oh that's right, all double and thing. Very nice Spencer! Yeah. Do you like it? Yeah. Cor, what a difference eh? This looks totally different dunnit? If that bedroom painted the wall there. It's difficult choosing wallpaper. You been out choosing wallpaper? Well what does it matter! Yeah, there's nothing about these days is there? Yeah you couldn't do it. That's why I like but That's one of the reasons we didn't bother we just painted it, you know? Yeah. Cos it's a pain hanging it! Well we were gonna really but you know, Well we're gonna stuff like Nice though. this on the floor I really should be interesting shouldn't it? Is this painted wood? They're either very, very, very poor or I think so. so they're Or is it er very sort of Or is it? striking pattern You tell me what Fibreglass, or something like that. Oh I think it's fibre whatever it is. No, that's wood, the doors Is it? Oh! the cupboards and everything are wood but the only thing that's the compressed card are these Yeah, pelmet things. Yeah. Mm! Yeah, it's nice! Oh it's nice and clean isn't it? Clean. Yeah, this has come up nicely now. ? Yeah. And that goes right through to that one doesn't it? Mm. Yeah, not bad at all. It needs a good er good dust. There is, there's work all the oil was in here I I I would imagine, yeah? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, we got erm nice windows which were nice They were all made up as a batch weren't they? actually. Mm. Yep. Mm. Well, well honestly I'm quite pleased with them cos that I mean They look good! like the grain of the others in there. What was it like before you moved in then? A state! It was all painted, you know, like . Yeah, but i that was painted like that. Oh Christ! We could take that and be stripped this week couldn't we? Have you put all the coving up? Or is that theirs? No we're gonna do Oh! that. How, how it had been Mark is you can see from the floor here, there was a wall across here Right. and then you had like a pantry Yes , this was the pantry. there er like a coal er this was an outside toilet that you got into round there and then the end bit was a coal shed. Oh right! So the people knocked all that down, we we didn't do Mm. that but they've left like the kitcheny bits here in the a , what was the old kitchen area Oh I see you know? yeah. So what we've done is like make a into the kitchen and this will be a . Mm. Oh yeah. Did you have to wallpaper the ceiling or was already No. done? It was already done. Oh, it's quite decent actually, I mean it's not too bad. Mm! Oh! It's quite a room, size. You're gonna put a table here are you? Yeah. Oh that's right. But Pretty good! not too bad. they did chuck in the dishwasher! Yeah! That's a little winner of the thing. Very good! Save you having to wash up! And how often do you have to use it then? Every other day we're using it at the moment. Oh not bad! Not bad! But no, he's made a nice good job of the Yeah, it's quite popular the old dishwashers now. tiling. Yeah. Yeah. He has hasn't he? Yeah. And like the th plumbing, you know the another reason fix it on, instead of having a drain for that, a drain for the sink and a drain for this, they all go into one. Yeah. Un under there Mm. Much better. and then out of the side which is which is nice. Mm. Mm. Yeah, it's very nice! So when are you off to Outer Mongolia then? I'm back to Outer Mongolia tomorrow. I got back last night toothbrush Mm. is still, still wet! ! Had a worried look on her face then ! Oh darling! Sorry ! Bonnie's face! Never mind, pet! Erm Where are you going? Birmingham. I'm going to Birmingham? Birmingham. Yeah, on a course. Oh! And then I'll be That's another week. back tomorrow for a week. Mm. And then home for five weeks and back for another two weeks. Oh! What's at Birmingham then? Why do you go to Birmingham? Oh it's erm they've got a, I mean it's a huge hospital!and Mm. they've got a children's hospital there and I'm doing a paediatric health course for a month. Oh right. So children with leukaemia and All yeah? Mm mm. Whatever! Mm. It's all good stuff! Can't be a lot of fun though can it? Erm well i it can be quite nice cos you okay, you we you're speaking to parents and that who've had kids that have gone and died you're not actually dealing with the kids themselves. Oh, so it's like dying and coming back! It's all the theory of it and erm hi-tech stuff. But then what, are there people that are jus that are already qualified in that or ? No, no I'm the first one to go in. So at the moment, if you've got a kid with cancer they can't go to Ipswich or is it just a . No, they do but we share the care with Addenbrooks and and er I mean, the leukaemias do but some of the other kids don't . Look like you was just about to say something then! You're just too big! So you're looking after Gary Lineker's little boy are you? No, no, no, no, no that one that one's He had to have . I dunno, he's got a rare form of cancer but . Mm, so I'm very impressed! Can we go out in the garden do you think?is that alright? It was blocking It's open. the door last time weren't they? It's open. Let's hope you should see my before. Yeah , I didn't see it before. It was a lovely green kitchen! Green? Green! Sort of a Ugh! lime green wasn't it? Oh! Mustard green? No. Well the front here this is green going up the front isn't it? Yeah. Yeah, you get the effects from that don't you? Yeah. It was green and yellow really, actually er It was a sickly green wasn't it? in er , green and yellow. What you gonna do with the garden then? Erm, the idea is we're gonna have that block all we're gonna do is make er this is very ambitious plan here erm we're gonna have the problem with the drive at the moment is if you put one car in it's always the car Mm. in front that you want Mm. out first! I like your car by Yeah. the way. parked do you think! Hey? The erm we're gonna, we're gonna make a drive bit that goes in across where the lawn is now Aha. so that you can have one car there and another one up here. Yeah. So, it'll be block paving all up here and around there and down the side there. So you, are you Aha. gonna have all this taken out? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And do that do that. So you're gonna have, you're gonna have get rid of the lawn at the front then effectively? Yeah. Yeah. And pave right over to the gate there so you, so that you can get either car out one one car and bring up to the back of here and the other two across there . And then, coming through here take it all the way up take this garage down and bring the lawn across. Are you gonna put another garage up or just No. won't bother? No. I find it's dangerous to be driving your car backwards and forwards across the back door innit? You know, the kids? Yeah. Yeah, that's true. So then you know, you've you end up with quite a nice er lawn oh right! You take this up? Yeah, Yeah. Oh and these were the gates were they? That's right,the , they were they were gates at like the front of the house there. Oh it's had all new windows put in some time hasn't it? Mm! Yeah, all the windows except the the kitchen of Yeah. I I expect like yours, they're hard wood and then er aluminium at the Yeah. side. Yeah. No, ours are hard wood solid but Oh! you know, Yeah, yeah. Pretty good! Yeah. Oh you got a little shed! Got a little shed here. We got a greenhouse. And some veggies! And a sort of Are these leeks? things that I don't know what they, yes, I think or or they are. bolted onions! What the hell are they? Probably er strawberries. The bed. What's that there? Are they cabbages or something? Red cabbage. Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah? These are . Mm! Looks good! Right. Nothing's growing very well in there. Yeah, once you get that shed and that garage down you can er Be a nice size won't it? be quite Yes. decent, yeah. Mm. Have you been watching that gardening programme? Friday evenings. No, it worries me! Oh! They've had some good ideas though. It's quite good actually. Did you see that one erm with where the, really old boy on a scrap yard, like a, and and then it was like a huge park! No. No. He cleaned it up a bit and a scrap yard and it, and this thing and they were like hills and rock gardens, you know like Oh really! hundreds of yards long Yeah. and and deep! Yeah. This bloke, you know, had been working on it for fifty years nonstop and Oh my god! Yeah, Sue Sue wants it o over a weekend don't you? Just give up! I can't, I just wanna sort of look out the window and it's changed completely! Not asking a lot now is it? Oh it's great! Ah! the old boy . Yeah. Ah yeah. Yeah. And they build up the old . Yeah and you don't even notice it do you? So these cupboards have gotta go on here but the door's gotta go up in the meantime? Yep. Yep. Oh right. ,. We've still we've still got a little bit of fiddling Oh I see to do with the what the well we've got instead of all these individual prints I've got I've got long ones cos if the Yeah. floor is Mm. very uneven. I'm gonna fit them. But until you finish the your messing around you're better to leave the doors off aren't you? What you gonna do on the floor? Well we're looking at we were having a look this morning at erm that vinyl floor covering stuff Mm. Mm. would be best. Do you want to see if there's some wallpaper in here Mark? ! No! It's er that that we're particularly Ah that's er lovely keen on. isn't it? Yeah! Got a real sort of er But it's gonna be difficult to decorate around it, you know, and keep it intact but we'll we'll try it. That's amazing isn't it ? How people Yeah. with chi , er tastes are different? Are you gonna keep this, keep this as well are you? I'm sure it was at one time. Gotta be, but carpet, I mean that was ! Yeah. I think the door's nice though! The thing about this is , it's gonna be a nice room isn't it, when the Well quite! Yeah. you know, the garden is done. Got a decent so you're gonna have this as a dining room are you? Well I I I don't know. Well that might just be you know, like another sitting room It's Yeah. tasteful innit? so Yeah I mean Yeah I Lovely! mean Yeah, don't don't, try not to damage any more of it, I mean No , no I really think of that. Are you gonna be able to get some more from the manufacturer to to patch that bit up are you? Patch that together, yeah! . Yeah! And we'll have another fire in here. What was that, an old Yeah and a gas fire thingy was it? Yeah. Yeah. Mm. If we could get a you know, if we could open that up cos we got one of tho th , have you seen the fire in action? In the lounge? Yeah Yeah. I like it. Yeah , yeah got a glimpse Yeah. of that. I like it. Oh . Oh it is, and we put, light the fires Nice and warm. as well. Yes, it is nice and warm actually but That's actually gas isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, Derek was saying about it. Gives off quite a lot of heat. And I think they're quite expensive to run but it was so nice we We got rid of that one. we thought we'd try it out. Well the new one was the new one was we looked at one in the gas showroom when this Alright! thing came out Mm. What's the matter? What's the matter? Mm. You're not tape to taping are you ? No I'm not actually I've rewound it once. Can't work out how Mark, we'd like to but we can't work out how! Well you just shove one aerial output th the aerial input on the other one I think. Mm. Or video, no, video No I like it, this one's nice output to video input. I like this. Yeah. Yeah, it's nice that! You've got It's convenient isn't it? That's right, very Switch it on and you can What's that? The thermostat, I'm just wondering how it works Yeah, we know about the thermostats. cos there's another thermostat on the on the boiler itself. Tell me the difference between a volt meter and an amp meter? Well one measures volts and one measures amps! What's the difference between a volt and an amp? The volt is the amount of current passing through Yeah. yeah? An amp amps is current, and volts is volts ! Well basically with a with a volt meter Volt Right? you put the the volt meter across the voltage you're measuring say, like a battery, right Right. got a battery, put the volt Right. across it Yeah. and you measure volts, okay? Yeah, they're fine That tells you how much,wha what sort of voltage battery you need does it? Well that tells you the voltage of the battery at that particular That you're using? time, yeah? I understand. Right. So But an amp meter amp meter you put in series say, like if you put a light bulb across Right. the battery you put one lead on the battery for the light bulb and then the other The other one lead of the bulb would go through through the meter. Right, to the Does that ma bulb? So it'd go from the, from the battery And Mark's gone past! Are we there? Are we there? Are we there? And If we go from the battery to the bulb , from the bulb to the meter To the amp meter, from the meter to the battery from the meter to the battery , yeah. Right. And what does that do? And that measures current. And that measures the amount of current flow to , when did you pick it up? Oh! Well we had it, got it last night. Did you? Yeah. Why's that then? Is that something you're teaching the kids are you? We are we we've got an amp meter and a volt meter and I thought they were the same thing you see. No. You've gotta be a bit careful cos if you stick an amp meter or a current meter across a battery you're effectively shorting the battery out. Right. Right? Cos you've effectively got a dead short through an ammeter whereas a a volt meter's got a a hun , a high er resistance or an open circuit, effectively. Right. So if I put a volt meter on a battery it would short the battery? That's what you said isn't No. it? Amp meter across the battery. If you put an amp meter across a battery? Yeah. But the current would flow wouldn't it? Yeah, the current would flow Yeah. but you would get a lot of current flowing. Depends what the what the a , I mean if you've got an ammeter set to milliamps and you stuck it across a battery Right. the meter would go smack across the thing! Right. But if you have it set to to amps Amps. then you'd probably get, well whatever the battery's capable of . But the first time he's hitting it See what I mean? it bloody hard ! So you've gotta be a bit careful! Well why on earth would a school have an And amp meter for? all these buttons like the normal I mean, I understand why a volt me , you know, I mean, but I mean, battery's have ? has a voltage written on . anyway! I mean, so what do you want a Yeah. volt meter for? Well when they I'm going to look at being funny. Yeah. Oh I'll be out in a minute. Erm if you the thing is,yo a battery might be marked nine volts Right. but when it's dead, it might only have six on it, six volts. Left? Well if it's dead, it's dead isn't it? Yeah, well it's dead yeah but what happens is, when it dies the volts go down, that's why the the yo your radio or whatever got it's operating and stops working. Know what I mean? So if it, if it's got six volts left, it wouldn't be dead would it? It would just be Yeah, it'd be dead. Would it? Yeah. Right. So what's the point of having a volt meter then? Just to find out what voltage you got left in your battery? Well no, your volt me , I use volt meters all the time at work. You make, build a circuit if you Right wanna test the power supplies you put a volt meter across to measure cos if you think So the power is going round? No, that's Well they an amp meter! You just wanna measure the volt, it's just a test meter isn't it? I mean, you get meters normally, the meters we've got at work and you just turn a knob and it's got ohms, volts, amps frequency you know, whatever. And they get them on one machine? Yeah. I mean, you can use a volt meter as an amp meter if you put a shunt across it. Right. See what I mean. Oh well at least I know that there is a, a different thing. It's all, it's all to do with ohms law, if you know ohms law then you'll understand I don't know ohms law. what's what. No. I mean I think really new, newfangled things! It's really not this . Oh it came yesterday did it? Oh she's sitting in it already. I don't know, he's got the key but he's not gonna get in. Oh. Yeah. I'll have a quick shake, shufty. It's very nice. Well the si , the back door's open innit? Oh is it? Yeah, so you can close it. Station please! Cor this is nice innit? First time Underneath I've been in one of these. underneath there that's your miles per gallon so as you're driving along Yeah. that tells you you know, how how you're driving it and onto Oh right! economy Yeah, yeah, got you! er been quite good in that one. Ha, so when you put your foot down the meter goes smack ! That's right. Yeah. There's your lights. Side lights. And what's, is this beam? No, that's er the rear fog light Oh right! and those are you know The beam would be on a stick wouldn't it? Yeah. It's on one of the sticks. Yeah. Yeah erm Oh it's nice isn't it? Electric windows if we go out later. Oh, sun roof as well. Oh yeah You can er adjust the lights, say that Mark's got in the back Yeah. put that on one Oh right, why? cos there's somebody in the back and that's Oh right, cos of, that changes the angle of the lights. Oh right. It changes the two Yeah, mm mm. erm and then you can control the density of the other lights. And they go down at a bit at a time or it'll go all the way down . Mm! Nifty, what? This is your mhm! Oh my god! like that. Is that for the mirrors? Yeah. Oh god! That's Do you wanna drive? Take it for a little drive. No, probably an ! I mean no, I wouldn't ! I'd take any other cars! No I wouldn't ! In any other car, I'd say it was no. Well you took your dad out didn't you? I know, but bit different. Honestly! The steering lock on? If you were to come back there Oh! all the wa , all the way starting up car We'd better get her out of here, she'll want one tomorrow! No, I wouldn't want . How long have you been waiting for this car, a while haven't you Spen? Erm Got a huge accelerator pedal innit? Just like it covers the whole of January. your foot! January we bought January, February, March, mm, that's not bad actually. So incredibly quiet! A lovely sound isn't it? Erm Mm , too right! How many valves has it got? Got sixteen valves has it? Yeah, no , twenty six. Four cylinders four Oh. . Even even with ashtray Yeah. Ah ! Ah no ! Oh that's sickly isn't it? That is really smart innit? Ah that's brilliant! How does that work then? They probably have a big No idea. whole department working on these ashtrays and then Yeah, I would of thought eighteen German engineers just Yeah. on working the ashtray . That fascinates me! Oh that's brilliant that ! No I like the light because like, as soon as as soon as you put your key in the door Yeah. the light comes on, and then it waits until you start the engine until it goes off Yeah. and then when you get out as soon as, as soon as the car comes to rest the light comes on Yeah. and then it stays on until you've closed the door and locked it, you know Yeah. then it goes out. No, there's all sorts of remote to adjust yo you think you're gonna set the clock so you have a little knob Yeah. don't you? But you don't, you've got a button to erm and you just put that . Oh god! I'm surprised it hasn't got a digital one actually. No. I don't like digital clocks No. I'd rather have it like that. For actually glancing down and looking at a clock It's nice. a Mm. dial one is is actually easier to read isn't it? Well What's sa what's the hi-fi like then? Mark . Not bad really. Just do one more when we've listened to it. The radio's pretty good. And the aerial is in is those two strips on the window. Oh yeah, yeah. Rather than an aerial. Vandal-proof job Yeah. you see. Good for vandals, yeah. There is is like a break, this vandal-proof thing, if you park in a duff area Yeah. You pull them thing out do you. Yeah. You can Oh yeah, take it Take your out. radio out and and lock it in the glove box. And they give you you get four keys and one of them is called the chauffeur's key Yeah. and that will drive the car but it won't unlock the glove box or the boot Yeah, for the chauffeur. so if you do , you don't want your chauffeur to know what you've got in the glove box A chauffeur key ! That's your job then Sue! I like these seatbelts at the back! They come from the other way Yeah, it's amazing! don't they? They go the other way to normal. Yeah. That's good actually. They say that's so that if there's an accident They can just get out innit? then people can er get you out easier. Oh course Yeah. yeah! Never thought of that. A lot of design's gone into that. Good old Gerries ah? Yeah. But it's not Yeah but this one did as well. Yeah. These floor mats see they've got little screw in things. Oh, what's the idea? Just twist the lock and they Mm! It's a bizarre amount of detail but It's got a lovely , lovely gear box hasn't it? Mm. Gear stick on that. Yeah. Nice little chunky one. Yeah, it's very nice! The Germans have certainly got it haven't they? But i , Mark you look at this accelerator pedal it's the whole sort of length of your foot, it's Mm. so comfortable instead of Mm. that piddling bit that goes in the ball of your foot. And you find you see you've got that little thing to put your clutch foot on as well. That, next to you. Is there? Oh No. god! No, go to the left. Oh I see what you mean. And there's a little Yeah, yeah a little they've even put that. They're so Yeah, well it's all for comfort I think. Yeah. They're amazing aren't they? How fast will it go then Spence, I'm sure you wound it up? No, you mustn't take it over They've tested it at a hundred and thirty five miles done, eh? You ge yo you mustn't take it over er, three and a half things or eighty miles an hour Mm. for the first six hundred miles. Mm. But the top Oh course, yeah! speed in the book is a hundred and twenty nine. Oh cos you only got it yesterday didn't you? Yeah. Mm. Mm. I don't think we'll get anywhere near a hundred and twenty nine in that ! It's not that so much though, it's just a luxury and the the quietness of the engine and everything Mm. isn't it? Mm. And Er acceleration I suppose. Yeah, it's very good it's very good like between forty to seventy, you know, for actual Mm. pulling away from lights or whatever it's not, nothing very special. The thing is when you're doing No, but I mean but when you're doing fifty and you wanna overtake something Yeah. Yeah. That's when it's very tight. It's very nice! Let's go and see my sis! Yeah, very impressive isn't it? Got a nice sound to it as well, when you're when you're not speaking. Mm. Little But it only works the horns. with the erm the ignition does it? Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah we haven't tried the horn yet. Probably goes diddle di der der da diddle der der ! Ooh! Well you wouldn't argue with that would you ? Splendid, yeah! Oh yes , very nice! Very nice Spencer! Nice interior, grey, I like grey. I'm surprised you couldn't Yeah I actually and the door opens for you. Yeah, that's a bit of a let down isn't it? You've gotta ha work that handle, yes. It is really, you've gotta open the door ! Want someone to lift you out as well do you Sue? Well you know. Nice big chunky doors on it. Yes it's very good! Lovely colour! You choose the colour did you? Well I had Cor! like a blanket with bright red dark red or erm or white. It's sort of a is it a sort of bluey green? Or is it a racing green? It's called nau nautic green. Or I mean the reds and greens are a bit boring aren't they? It's Mm. different. Even though it's just a car . What the hell is that The smell? I dunno, it stinks! Phworr, Jesus! Phworr! You're meant to have a a beige upholstery with it but I think the grey would be Yeah. nice. Oh, better. Yeah, I don't really like the . Yeah very nice! If only we could. I like the cigarette bit! Don't even smoke but she likes the cigarette bit ! Ashtray! Don't smoke do we darling? Well no,. Where's your car? Oh it's just up the road. It's just, I I you know, we were there and we'd sort of gone past so rather than reverse Well no, I I just carried on cos I saw a space there, that's all. Ooh! So how come you got a filthy cold then? Everybody went last week and I got it, didn't I? Alright. Are your mum and dad alright? Yeah, they're alright, yeah, yeah! Said we leave it on the back cos we got roped into , but there we go ! So where did you stay then, there? Is it Not much No. chance of that! No I went in bed and breakfast. They know the accommodation you see and it's really grot! Oh. But it's very good! Sort of make breakfast in about half an hour, quarter of an hour. Right. So the North then? Well I'm not get a taxi from the station you know a dump! It's funny actually cos I thought this is the first Saturday when we vegged out to . Well I didn't actually expect you to be in really No. but we thought well we're going up the grave and it's not exactly out the way so we thought we'd pop in. Alright? Erm some of your clothes I didn't take with me and they're at mum's, I I mean I . To be honest, I didn't know what you were really It's lovely! I mean I didn't take a lot with me, I mean I took too much as it was and my arm carrying it across the Underground . And so the Did you go on the train rather than drive? Yeah. I mean the there's no parking at the B and B Yeah. There's no parking at the hospital, it's terrible! And er you know, it just wasn't worth it. , I should think it's good for him! Put on a bit of weight haven't you? This looks Yeah. wonderful! Mm. I thought you were supposed to go round those, not Have you seen the new Star Trek yet then? No. From I what I see advertised wha Ah that's whe Yeah. when does it come to I , is it in Ipswich then? Ipswich at the moment. Yeah. Oh right. But honestly it's make a date for next week, okay? Yeah. Did you do the Star Trek competition on Radio One? Radio Times. Or Radio One. Yeah. I can I No we did, we did the one in Radio Times didn't we? Which one? Steve Wright No. was doing it was he? No. No it was erm God innit cold again? Simon Bates. Yeah. Yeah. His cardigan's on. Er, yeah I know Have you seen it then? before he was on. Mm. Good? Is it? Best one I think. Very! Yeah. Do you still watch Is it still the old crowd? Do you watch Star Trek now? Shi , William Shatner? Mm. Really? Is it really? Good god, he must Don't like it now though without the likes of William Shatner and that. Is that the new one? Yeah. Well you'll like th th this, it's very, very well done! Extremely Oh! well done! It's sort of it's like erm analogy between what's happened in Russia and all that sort of thing cos they couldn't . Ah! Oh right! It is very good! Have to go and see that then girl! Mm. Yeah, could go next weekend if you want? Or Friday? Well we'll be going to see J F K sometime this week won't we? Mm. I wouldn't mind seeing that either actually. I thought William Shatner had been had to be resumed or something. Right. Yeah, the well honestly the toupees are endless! It must of taken them years to get them made up to look even vaguely Has it got Scotty and that lot in it? Yeah. I mean Scotty's seventy six or older than Bones is seventy one. Yeah. Yeah Bones has really aged ain't he? All these old Er, and Scotty's just you know, he's Is, is erm What about Scott? Scott's in it, yeah. Is Leonard in it then? Yeah, they're all in it. Are they? They're all in it. Good lord! Zulu's got his own ship now. Checkoff's in it, and , they're all in it. Oh Zulu still looks young doesn't he? He's probably about sixty ! Yeah. He's looks far better, I think he is a younger . Checkoff's got a toupee. You can Yeah? see it. You know, it moves without his head sort of thing, it moves away! It really is, I mean you'd die laughing! This has gotta be the last one though hasn't it? They say it is. Yeah. Well there's loads of pensioner's jokes in some of these , it was really, very good you know, when Is he still admiral? No, he's the captain. No, yeah, he's the captain of er see he got, he got demoted didn't he? For Yeah. Cos he went out of Scott's . For going into the Ah he got, ah he got done for that did he? And suspiciously Yeah, he didn't wanna be an admiral anyway did he? No! No, it was very good! All about the Klingon Empire diminishing and what can they do about it? Oh hello mate! Yep! I can't pick him up! I think he's still not made out whose home he's in! Yes, yes, you're alright aren't you? We love you! They're very nice cats are. They move when you stroke them They'd do that all night. and dogs don't do they ? As they indeed! Mm. We've been trying to . Crawl in right by the fire can't you? And he's such a hooligan, you know,he's knackered one of his claws again! Daft thing about it, but I thought rather than hang on I'll get in there and get off. Oh! another anaesthetic to cut it back! He's terrible! Hello! then? Yeah! Oh yeah, could do, if we try it . You can just imagine, pull them out! No! Oh no! Well really when I had the same thing , you know,and goes back for a little bit this morning and er same sort of thing. But, you know, it's just when you think oh my god, that's money! I mean, how much do they cost those pills? Cor! Nineteen and a half pounds, I thought they were more than that actually. God! but you know, I mean I know it's not . Mm, it's very nice though,. The mats had were under six pounds this morning, and I pay only half of that. Oh you had to buy the mats do you? Will the company buy them? No. Oh. Well it was seventy six pounds before VAT. Yeah, but you say that I paid thirty pounds for the Astra, now let's get it in the balance here, you see what I mean, and that sen and then Mm. they've, they're you know, quality-wise they're double the quality. Yeah. Plus they're the German ones and you can say Plus more. I can Mm. that that But you'll don't you with it? What? With the car? Oh yes. But it was that or a Vauxhall . Oh no! Oh god! It's not quite the same thing Go for B M W every time! the sports . Ah, yeah, but the B M W I'm afraid is, they've got it haven't they? Oh yeah I I think so too. I think B M W's are the business really! We were Oh you didn't did he? Well not cos we haven't quite got one, a B M W . No, but a a big four wheel drive thing, you know it's quite sort of. Oh, what that one? , yeah. Yeah But you like them! Oh wha what one is it? He'll be at you, why didn't you get one of them? No,wha what's it called? You know, you wanted to drive one. No. Oh that, what that little jeepy thing? Oh I know, not them! Oh aye, you should have one of those! Yeah we saw that in the Radio Times. Yeah, you liked that didn't you? Yeah. They're not that expensive actually are they? They're cheaper than one of those. Oh yeah! Those, you know, the the really should of got one, you know it's , almost a Range Rover. Mm. Fo four door but there's some problem because it's their . Very . Mm. I just thought it was a bit chunky. the car. Oh I would of gone The BM I would of gone for the four wheel I do , yeah but definitely! I know I wouldn't, I think they've been . Mm. Yeah but trouble is you pray for ra , pray for snow when you've got a four wheel drive car! God Yeah. snow, look! Don't really want it. Yeah. So mum and dad are alright are they? Yes, they're fine! Have they drove the car? Yes. I it's nice you know I haven't been no, I dro , I drove that and it's really quite nice but I might I wish he hadn't of got it cos Sue wants it when he's finished with it. Oh. Do you? Seriously, yeah. It's a nice Well have it! sort of, it's a nice little car to drive actually. It's got the Renault, the Fuego gearbox, you know. Mm,. It's, it is really nippy for a one point four! Mm. Erm, and it's, it's all there, it's, you know it's a nice car, it's the nicest car he's had! Yeah. And it you know, good round the cor , really nice little thing to drive, yeah. Even though It would be nice if it . Oh god yeah! Oh, you know, he's . Really ni , I mean you get in there and you feel really comfortable and everything's there you got a nice radio as well and er but yeah, it's really very nice! Much nicer gearbox. It's a typical sort of Renault floppy gearbox, you know what I mean? No. Sort of play about with it and , instead of all boring Yeah. I don't like floppy gearboxes. Oh! I like a nice a positive ! I like that Fuego gearbox. Mm. The same sort of thing as the like this could go through that. Mm! Yep! Straight on! Yeah I know , I said I want one . Mm. Is he gonna go . He's now done a hundred and seven thousand, I think, a hundred and eight thousand. Just about in the ground now innit really? He won't let you . It sounds like a diesel engine so . Yeah but it's erm Didn't he? I didn't think , it's not that old. I've only noticed it five years, it looks filthy, although it's been in the car wash . Hasn't it? Yeah, it's all the on the roads innit? Yeah. But you want a Sierra . No I don't! You wanted the Sierra! You want the four wheel drive but it's not practical! Oh! So that's gone! Mm. Ho how far have you gotta go over before you you get a you'll get a company car at B T? Er head a group or group leader quite a way. Most of those have got P H D's. It's er it's a bit strange at B T! And then you only get a popular ghia, it's hardly worth it! No you don't! Don't you? Or do you? Actually, don't forget Yeah, you a Sierra, yeah. yeah. no, then you've gotta your car. Who? No No. so th th yeah, but . Mm. But,th he is you know, he is very, very good about it, he would know from loads of money and he's and his company could have a one point six Sierra Mm. you know Yeah. you don't think No. but er I think that they were part of your pay rise one year was it? Yeah,th they had a new, a re-think. grading, instead of giving them a pay rise they get That's right. And I mean er, you know car. if yo if you're earning that sort of salary, I'm afraid to say, which you know, the header groups are Mm. I mean, to drive round in a one point six basic Sierra, well it's pathetic It's pathetic isn't it? really! Mm. Mm. Mm. I mean I just think Well, well Mike didn't have one cos he was too tall! Mm. And he kept banging his head on the ceiling! Yeah, I know, it's tall ! So he didn't have one and ma and my group leader he er he's already got about nine cars cos he collects them anyway ! He said, what do I want another bloody car for! So Yeah. he didn't have one either. They get a good deal really don't they? Well we'll be going to an auction to get like a reasonable car. Yeah. Yeah, I'll enjoy that. We shall get, you know, sort of, an E or and F and They must, they must be going for rock bottom prices at the moment there! I saw an E Sierra in the paper for about three thousand that had only done forty thousand er, an estate. Mm. Wasn't a very good, one point eight. But you can save a lot going to the auction can't you? Bit of gamble a though! Well as long as you don't mind the high mileage cars but if they've been going up and down the motorway all the time Not all of them are the high mileage though are they? . Yeah, a fleet car. But never mind! Well Mike went to a we went to the auction at Yeah. to buy and had very much in the sports car range. No , they don't, they tend Mm. to be your typical company Company car Yeah, yeah. Yeah. But they shift So them so quickly don't they? Mm. You don't get time to think about it. Mm. It's like in But then if you, I mean when we went there was that, I mean, okay it was erm it was a van wasn't it? But it was a Vauxhall Astra van but I mean it was E reg and it was three years ago and it went for two thousand quid! You know, and it's got That was in mint condition wasn't it? It was an F, F reg was it? a van. No, it was an E reg. Was it E? But, if you were buying it at a garage you were probably gonna pay at least four Mm. four and a half. Mm. And it was a bargain! Yeah. There wasn't a mark on it, but I mean Yeah. Well that's cos it was a van you see. That's right. But I mean Well no, but I mean even so, the the Sierras your gonna get cheaper there. Well a van for us would be ideal wouldn't it? I don't want a van! Well you don't need to have back seats do you? Especially if there's just two of us. We could dump the dogs in the back and off you go! You want a Sierra estate mate if you want to go knocking about the Lake District with the dogs. Well it wouldn't matter what you what you'd got the ozone, yeah. you always want something better don't you? I mean we went u up to Hunters this morning to get those mats Mm. and there was a a a five Yeah. five, grade five N in er sort of gun metal grey, I mean, it's all grey Oh yeah, yeah. leather seats and er Yeah. and you looked she looked at me and said , But it said . Thirty nine Yeah. nine fifty? Yeah. You you always want something better . Actually didn't he? Who? Nick. Is it? You know Nick ? Yeah, I know Nick. Does he work he work at Hunters on their Mm. ? Mm. Hello! What do you want then? Well we better get, go before they start mate. Yeah, we'd better go to Sainsbury's, Great fun! I hope you feel better matey! Mhm. Ooh! Nice to see the kitchen's coming on at last. Yep. Mm. Hey? No. I reckon she's foxing! I don't do I? No, she just sounds a bit grot! You look very poorly! Any excuse to watch this box, eh? Just doesn't fancy decorating today,that's the No. No. Then you get a week off. Oh course it's, bugger it! It's half term isn't it? You tell her! This is the first time I think we've sat down and done bugger all for ages! Mm. That's alright Sally, I believe you! Er, yeah! Come round again. Getting to my Well I mean this li , room's certainly liveable isn't it? You can get the kitchen done, then you get your bedroom then well Yeah. you're there really. Bedroom's alright. Yep. I'm going up in the bedroom next. Are you? Mhm. Mm. Mm. Oh, when I are you still interested in going to these sales? Well when I next go, you know, when I get back I'll give you a ring. Well I'm not buying anything at the moment but if you wanna have a look round. Good grief! gave you that book. Got that for Paul. Did you? Mm. So I'm sorry I didn't get early enough . But I mean, then I was bound to be very bored, except Yeah. when he comes up. Yeah.. Oh . That's good. Do they have new stuff there as well? No. I mean they've got No, I mean relatively. Erm Not really, no. No. You're better looking at erm for er sort of newer stuff, you know, just old . It's old or tatty really. What's that? Sorry? What's that? The auction. The auction. You know Yeah. the Estate Agent they had er an auction. Of homes everywhere. sorry, not ! . Yeah I was gonna say! Not ,. Yeah,. No they wouldn't , they wouldn't have my leather chair at this auction. No, not a bit! And they wouldn't have it as a nice antique one, that not sort of thing, no. But they might have if is on now. Yeah. It's alright might have offered you something mightn't you? You Mm. might get a er as an offer. normally though I'd ask you but I, time they're gonna get rid of there nice leather chairs, and if they're going bankrupt No. When is there one this week then? Well it's at the er yeah, you could go tomorrow you could go to the erm the viewing on Monday morning. And then stay Yeah. for the sales. Yeah, if you wanted to. Mm. Yeah. Yep. Erm no, but the nice Wednesday one went last week, but there'll be another one in March. Well I quite like that county one, that's plenty for me. Yeah. And erm I do no, have had theirs in February so there isn't that one and erm, have had one as well. But yeah, there's th , the viewing on Monday for the sale on Monday. If you want to go. Okay! And, when I read it in the paper cos it, you know it has the details of the sale of new on the back Mm. it didn't look quite so crappy but I mean nor ,no the trouble is when you read something you picture what that chest is gonna be, it's gonna That's right. what you like Mm. when you go and look at it, you think no, it's Mm. not what I want. Yeah. Yeah. It's the classic example of those chairs we bought an we thought, oh nice set Yeah. of oak chairs, got there and they were gross weren't they ? Yeah, I know but I did get those two nice farmhouse chairs Yeah. in beech so you can't Yeah, worked out alright. Is that those two ? Two balloon chairs. Did you buy two Victorian balloon chairs? No, the farmhouse sort of yeah Straight. spindle back wood. Spindle back, yeah. That's all, I just looked I thought you got some of those with the oval on, the lips on the back? No! No. No? No. Oh. Right. Right we better go mate! Thank you ever so much for coming. Nice to see you! Yep! And erm, Take care, get well soon won't you? Yeah. Have a good time next week! We will. Alright? Have you come in your Porsche? Yes. Well we try to. Oh I don't need a great deal cos we've got plenty of potatoes. And we've got orange juice. I just need a bit of money to get a you know a bar of chocolate at work. Mm. Okay? Mm. Yes but I I've got quite a lot Oh there must be some surely. Yeah There are some nice grapes over there. Can munch on them tonight. Oh these bags are knackered. I know. I got you some in the thing. What do you think I got from over there? Ah. Right. Sorry. Mark, would you say we've got enough potatoes? Yeah we've got a bag of potatoes. Okay for those. Thank you. Carrots? Do we need any carrots? Do you ever use them? We've got plenty of carrots. We're alright for carrots. Carrots okay. Mushroom er don't get mushrooms cos I Yeah. won't use them. Bananas. I prefer to have fruit really cos I can eat them with rolls. And we'll definitely need some rolls cos I'm right out. We'll get you some apples then. they've only got bloody Granny Smiths. Haven't they got anything else? Haven't they got any Coxes? What are these? Golden Delicious. They any good? Golden Delic no they're even worse. They're bloody French aren't they. Erm What have we here. Hi. Hello How are you? Fine thanks. Hello. Keeping well? Okay yes, yes. Mm goody, good. Keep you working hard here I take it do they? Too hard really. Oh take care then. Do you want any grapes? Mm No. Sure? Mm mm. Mm mm mm mm. No? Eighty eight P. They're a bit er I wouldn't say they're immaculate no. Oh you're bound to get a few bum ones aren't you. We only want them for tonight really don't we. That'll do. Pick all the bad ones off . You don't care do you. Here you are, shove them in there. Yeah but why should I ? Can I have some satsumas? Oh we've got those haven't we. Got them here. Alright? Right. So you've got the satsumas. Yep. You're alright for fruit then are you? Well fruit should be up front really so it doesn't get squashed by everything else. What about frozen peas and things? Put these in a bag will you? No don't worry. Don't worry. Don't worry. Haven't got any. Don't worry. Come on. They're not too busy tonight are they. I was quite surprised . No You don't need any ? Do you want anything ? No. Hate it. Tinned carrot? No. Er er ooh. Do you need a tin of carrots? Not personally but er well are we gonna have another shop la next week? Yeah, we're going to on Friday. Erm well we'll get all that stuff then. Ju just get what I'm gonna have this week. Which is fruit and I'll need some rolls er Do you want any noodles? You never eat them No. No I What about any packets of rice? Would you like that? No. Just get s erm Eggs are alright. I I just do vegetables. I have like peas, carrots and potatoes and I'll have a pie or something like that. Something simple. Do you eat cheese? Yeah we need some Cheddar don't we. Here you are. This will do. Right. Okay. E English Cheddar, or shall we try something else? Try something else. Bit boring. Get ah erm Scottish Cheddar or farmhouse Cheddar's quite nice. Right. Eggs? They're great big lumps though. No I've got some eggs. Is that gonna be enough? That's too small. No er this will do. We g always use it all up Yeah. don't we. Brie we've got. Brie? Now, how are you for meat? Meat? Come on. Er mm seriously, what meat do you want? Erm You've got pies, you've got some sausages. Well I, I, I I I'm going off ham. We could get some bacon for tomorrow's breakfast. Cos you'll need a good breakfast if you're going away won't you. Well I was gonna cook dinner tomorrow anyway. I want want a cooked breakfast. I'm sick of cooked breakfast. I'll be back Oh yeah. to them every day now. Well I haven't. Well I can do you scrambled eggs tomorrow then. And tomato. Garlic bread! Garlic okay . And I'll want the rolls. Want the little rolls yeah. They're lovely they are. Trouble is er they get burned, the tops always burn, and the polythene always melts. Have you noticed that? These are alright What about portions of chicken? How are you doing for those? Er well I think we've loads of it. It's like some of it looks as if it's er getting a bit old. It's the trouble is we need to clean that out because the s some of the I know. stuff gets left at the bottom. ? I want those chicken things that we had before. Yeah I was trying to think where they are. What the chicken kiev or what you had ? No. They're the ones that you bought me last week. Oh right. I think they're They were in a box. Bird's Eye I think. I know. I know I'm trying to think where I got them. They were over there. Not not here. They were Oh. right over the other side. Now, orange juice? Yep. Ooh, look at these Sue. I'll have er That'll do you won't it? I'll have a four-pack. No, Sue. Yeah two then. Well actually, I no I won't have those, erm I'll have something else instead. Er But don't want this stuff, it's really expensive isn't it. What's this stuff? Fruit Coolers. This is cheaper. Mm that's cheaper. Don't want What about some grapefruit? Yeah baby red stuff will do. Here you are. Makes a change. That's it. Yeah I'm getting fed up with that orange stuff. Yeah pears. And slices in fruit juice. Peaches? Sainsbury's own are pretty good. Yeah. I like them. Thirty nine Very good. Yeah, I'm learning. Mm. Right that'll do. Okay. And And I'll have a Pick and Mix. Gonna have some chocolate. Packet of Penguins. Mhm. God . Ooh Cadbury's Creme Eggs. Oh. No. Please. No. I'll get you some next week. . Mm. If I can eat them all tonight can I have them? No. How much? Yeah. It's nice stuff though. When come around maybe you can have some of Er have they got the little barry things? It's one of these isn't it? Yes these are the boys. Thirty six, right. I've got Mm. Can I have a small Pick and Mix? No. Ha. Bar of chocolate? No. Yeah, one bar of chocolate. How about this? Rich, dark, plain . One of those? Actually Milky Bar I think I'd prefer that tonight. How about a Sainsbury's one? Probably it doesn't taste any different. No it bloody does mate. Does it? If you want white chocolate, Milky bar. It's the only Right. stuff that Oh is that that Nestle's th Yeah, Milky Bar. Mm. I've had other white chocolate and it doesn't taste the same. Erm bread, fruit. Yeah I know. Ooh Can you manage that trolley? I can take it for you if you like. No. Do we need any kitchen towels? No. Bin liners? Light bulbs? No. Batteries? Plax? To get rid of your plaque. Nope. Oh dear. Do you want some er Right Guard or any thing ? Ah , excellent . Yeah. Armpit stuff. Yeah. No there's the roll-on thing. Yeah well Well you can get what you want and I'll get what I want. Don't leave the trolley there. No that stuff you know that in the green tin that we had before will do. I think we're getting a bit low on shampoo but that Yeah. that'll wait till next week. Erm there's one need Small one. Just read its contents if you wanna know the weight. As long as it's ozone-friendly you're okay. Yeah I know, I don't want to have to carry a big one back with me though. Perhaps I'll have a rollie. That's good. I don't like those things though . No I don't either, no. God it doesn't feel very heavy does it? No. Right? Mm. We've all been told we've got smelly armpits so now we have to buy the stuff. Mm. with No you've got loads of hairbrushes. I know. I'm not I'm not going to get one, I'm just seeing what they've got. Right. Do you need any butter? Er no. Is there anything else? Er no. Yeah. Buy all that lot . Erm yeah. Erm what's that stuff called? Erm you usually get Oh well of course you wouldn't would you darling. Wouldn't just like Hartley's jam would you. No. No no no no no . Here you are, French conserve. Raspberry. Looks good. No we don't get those, they're more expensive. We get these. Sainsbury's own conserve . Absolutely. Wherever they are. Erm I can't find them. Oh we used to get this stuff. Do you remember this? Roses. No? Oh. Can't find them. Maybe nobody bought it. No it's down here. Sainsbury's conserve. Ah. Er strawberry. Strawberry. For a change. And blackcurrant. No, just the one. Apricot. No, just the one. Just one. Right and a pile of rolls mate. Pile of rolls. Oh and erm you get the rolls, I'll find the chicken, alright? Well what do you want? Crispy ones. There aren't Oh Ooh reduced to fifty eight instead of seventy two. What a bargain. Oh lovely. Right. Better have er twelve of those eh? S oh even that's not enough really. I have what, four a day? Say three a day, fifteen rolls,er yeah get cos they freeze alright. Yeah. Oh, why is it you can never find the stuff when you want it? It was quite a flat box with Yeah I know. two bits in. Bloody hell. Ah! Now they're quite handy. Was that me? Mm. How much is this? One pound and ninepence. How much? Mm. For one slice? Mm. Are you sure it's not on the other side round here? No? Ah! Here we go. Ah. No. They're fish . No they're not them, they're fish. It was that sort of box though. Can't find them Getting close. Turkish grills . Yeah I know. They're not round here. Oh, bloody hell . I don't really want to go on to for a few minutes. Yeah okay. I don't know darling. Look well what else are we gonna get you . Oh alright well we'll get something else then. What about pizza? I could cut that in half and have one I could Hey? ha Pizza. Mm. Haven't had one of those for ages. Erm Gino Ginelli. That's Bird's Eye. Gino Ginelli. One eighty nine. Oh well you cut that in halves in half . Mm. Mm. Half one night, half another. That'll do. That'll keep you going. Bottle of wine? Gateau? Bottle of wine, yeah. Quick. Gateau. Get the gateau, I'll get the wine. Where's the trolley? Mm? Hey? Where's the trolley? it's here. Oh. Erm Two thirty nine. Eh? Two thirty nine. Do you want the pecan Torte. nut Danish pastry? You didn't like it that much? No I want something really sort of what about this? Erm Do no I'm not really keen on gateaus really. Unless it's got like Black Forest. Want something like you know Death by Chocolate that Yeah. you can buy in pubs? You never seem to be able to buy that frozen do you ? Black Forest? No? No. No. Er that that's just you eat it and there's Chocolate Indulgent. Well that's the boy isn't it. That is er that's it. That looks like erm Two ninety nine. Arthritis Care ? What the hell's that doing on there? It's a cure for arthritis is it. Look. Mm. Action for people with arthritis . That's three quid Is that all? Yeah, but you only need one slice mate, whereas with a gateau you need three slices . Go on then. So that's sort of volume you're talking. You feel the weight of that compared to a gateau box . Yeah alright , that'll do then. Alright let's just get a packet of biscuits for the dogs and that'll do. Dog's gonna have a packet of biscuits and I can't have a Pick and Pix. Yeah. You don't wanna go to then. No, better not. Yeah. Can you get Woman's Own? Mm? Can you get Woman's Own? What for? Well it's got er Zeta Jones on it hasn't it. But you're gonna No that's alright, I'm in the queue aren't I. Are you debating? Well sort of yeah. that one. Mm. You ought to one each. Be a trolley each then . Ha? Need a trolley each then don't you. Yeah Yeah Go on All right. Too late. Never mind. You in a hurry then? Yeah, we're always in a hurry. go if you want cos I'm in no hurry. No no, it's alright. Think everybody's in a hurry to get really. I didn't think it'd be like this. I usually come Neither did I. about three. Two or three?if you don't hit the the month and they're okay but if you hit the Yeah it's funny isn't it. Mm. you can't even get in the car park. No. Laura, leave things alone. Leave them. Leave them. Bring 'em here. We've got to pay for them first. No. write protected against my Hang on, er that doesn't come up. Don't worry about it. Just fucking type it. Tut. John. There you are. Cheers. Look at that. Yeah I know Yeah. I dunno. Does it change the ty type? If you put in a great big long string does it change the t No. It's I wanna try f You can do it. You can do it. Because if I load in You can do it it because when I when we originally loaded this, Right. it comes up with open Windows Two, system blah blah blah blah, and it's on about four lines. It's a square box. Oh right. So what I, I, I fucking spent ages. I think what it is, it's a Postscript file. You have Oh. to do it in Postscript format,and it outputs it straight onto the middle of the screen. But we're only outputting a single line,so you that's all you can do. But the open Windows One when it comes up, it comes up square, and it's got open Windows It's probably open Windows Two version or open Windows Version Two and then something else. About three lines' worth. Yeah, Mm. they've all got one. So it can be done. All gone. All gone. But I haven't been able All gone. to suss out how to do it. It's only it might be in the ROM mode, to do that. Yeah. I haven't fi ou found out how to do that. That's the telephone. Erm Le telefon. Right. What are you doing with ? What are you doing with it? The interesting thing there Hang on a minute. Benjamin. alright and then You'll be on there all day mate. just being very pedantic about Mm. Mm. But never mind. I will er get What's the point? You just will turn it on and not you won't listen and Yeah it's it's a pose isn't it? Look I'm checking the batteries, right? Go and make a cup of tea Yun. Checking checking the bloody battery. You just waste the battery. don't worry about it do I? today? Erm today we've got er dunno. Rolls, erm a banana and a Was the wife pleased to see ? Yeah. Well she wasn't please to see me, no. No. Well of course not . So what do you got me? Anything? You haven't got any erm Wet We Wet Ones in here have we? What's a Wet One? It was lovely by the way. It was lovely. Was it? Yeah it was. Good, good. Did you go to ? Course I went. Why was substituted? Cos he was shit. Was that the only reason ? I had some Wet Ones. Ah! Excuse me . These are the boys. You're in the way of the bloody teapot. Oh, where's the kettle? Well I was gonna move the teapot Bedge. Who's got the kettle? took it away. just taken it . What are they gonna do with the bloody teapot, the miserable gits?can't be bothered. is not drinking tea . Oh my God. Bloody hell. I'm sterilizing my knife. It's got old cheese and old bits Oh. and bobs on it. Oh you redo his disk did you? Yeah. He really needs to get to see and take off the stuff that . Mm mm. It's terrible. buy some more Fuck off. Gotta . You gotta get another bloody box. Do you want a big one or a little one? Hey Norm. Norm Yeah . Erm nothing really. Marmite. Marmite. My mate Marmite, yeah. Bloody d I ain't had a cup of tea yet. Tut . Oh hang on, you've got some to do haven't you? I've done it mate. No you haven't. I have. Have you? Mm. Yeah. Oh don't . I've got a here. already. You haven't. You haven't even logged back in, you lying git. If I start going in there and doing it all you've gotta show how to . Just say fuck off. I don't mind. I've got a database of what it looked like before you touched it so if it fucks up Yes, what a . What a poser, ha? No he looks like er a B B C T V presenter doesn't he Like a cameraman. All I need do is get meself some really expensive trainers,tracksuit, be well away. Change my colour. Yeah. Come in here wearing a shell suit. And I just light my lighter in your direction. God. Do you realize how easy they go up? You're left with just the elastic. Mm. Some poor little kid six years old and he was wearing his shell suit from America or something and he walked past a skip that was burning,little spark came out, whoosh and he went up. Ninety percent burns. wear a shell suit. I'm surprised they're allowed to sell them now, if they're dangerous. There was a bit of a a few years ago about erm . Yeah I can imagine it. No they er they weren't short enough. How How easily they come off. No they were they were quite inflammable. Yeah? Yeah. Mhm. B M W Cheap cars. Hello. Hello. Have you had another haircut? Yeah. You have a haircut every week? No. He just keeps changing style.. No . Be brilliant. You'll like it. Be . Oh I know I'll like it. Be . You'll like Echo and the Bunnymen, that'll be right up your street. Very psychedelic these days. Oh shit . Doing covers of er old Rolling Stones' tunes and psychedelic . now eh? I just like . Seen them. We're going back thirty years aren't we? Got all their albums. albums. All their albums I have. What, it bash you in the back of the neck? No hit the door. Yeah. No it's just It is. if you get knocked on the arse innit? It is. Cos me neck's killing me. Oh. What's happened then? Hit a Mercedes. Did you? Yeah. Did you suddenly tense up when you saw the door? I didn't actually see I n I never saw the door. Oh you just hit it. I just heard a bang. What happened then? Well he ran into someone's motor and rode off. Whose fault was it? Oh, I reckon it was his. Do you? Why, what happened? Here we go again. The third picture he's drawn. Why don't you just do one ? No I've got I've got one here. Right. Parked was here, I was going up that way. That's me by the way. Yeah. He was parked, he'd sort of just pulled in there and left his car. He was over here somewhere . Door was open, headlights on. I came up, didn't see his door, went through the gap and wham, bam. You could argue that it was it was his right of way.. Why? He wasn't even in the car. Yeah I know but if you look I mean if there was no-one in the car and the door was bloody open then And the engine was running was it? Yeah well he shouldn't have he should never have left that engine running cos he wasn't Yeah I know. in there for starters, and he shouldn't have left the door open. Yes.. Shouldn't leave the engine running if you're not in the car. What you hit his door did you? Yeah. So I closed it for him. Oi mate you left your door open. Door open. Just imagine if he'd been sitting there with his legs dangling outside . So you didn't see the er the door open ? No I didn't s er s I didn't see his door open. Well I I would say it's his fault. Mm. It sounds a bit dodgy if you've got out the car, left all your lights and stuff on the bloody door open. Mm. In th in the middle of the road. Yeah. How long was he gone then? I dunno. What was he getting something out the boot or something? I dunno how long he was The boot was open yeah. His fault mate. He won't get away with that. Oh shut up Hello, sanctuary. He's seeking sanctuary Sanctuary. My son, what can I do for you? Nothing, just be here for me. We all love quality so much. He's come for confession. He's over there. Over there? Over there. What over in the other corner? So can I get ? You just want some extra money don't you? No, it does hurt. But it didn't hurt till this morning. Do much damage to yours? Er indicator smashed er pushed the headlight in a little bit wing was a little bit dented ? Write-off then. Yeah, it was last night. Yeah, write-off . A definite write-off. Not as far as the insurance company are concerned. Do you know if ? No. I'm waiting for Bedge. Oh . What what have you got your fucking neck? He's being a wazzock. Bloody right you are. A wazzock. No I listen to the radio sometimes on it. Pardon? Listen to the radio on it. Can't pick it up very well from here . Oh fuck. You are dead. No er John's . John. No no no it's alright. Right. I'll go I'll go and see John. Hang on, hang on. I've got to go and see him anyway. Oi Yes ? Yeah I think we're going to have to retract that to be honest. Get the right layer You might try and bring that one through there. No I've just had it's not normally a problem with us, but the manufacturer they're using,alright, is shit,and they'll tend to end up It's better to put loads of bends in rather than er Yeah. Well it is for them. Normally erm I wouldn't worry too much on the prototype, but this is probably gonna be the production So each bi er board isn't individually checked then for shorts? Yeah. It's not? It's not, no. Well, they should be, but this company are shite. Mm. And you can't move that. Well if we put er a kinky in here Yeah, alright. Yeah. Trying to see where this one goes that I wanna move It er it'd be handy actually if it generated an error when it did that. Yeah. Then you could just pinpoint them all Arguably it's not it's not really a problem is it? Not normally no. Mm. Mm. He's such a fast worker Been there before mate. I take it all back. Been there before. Yeah, don't believe what your mates tell you, I know. See that one could arguably Oops. I like these white D R Cs, they're er Er actually, er much as I hate to admit it, I think you could be right. Well they stand out,bang. As soon as something happens, woof you're there. Oh god, what a cockup. I've deleted No. It's best not to fuck around with these. I find I've found that if you if you get it like that just, you know delete it. No, the command Look. I mean, if you did get one that wasn't forty five and you didn't see it, it wouldn't be a problem for the manufacturer would it? I mean er does it just tell it Er to draw a line from one coordinate to another? Erm The pen? Does it tell it to draw a line from point to another Yeah. Well forty five's slightly yes. Yes, I think it does. Cos on here you get you get like quanti quantization steps don't you. If you don't Yeah. you get like a little ladder, Yeah. don't you, right? But you don't actually see that ladder. Nearly finished. Yeah, okay. Is it annoying you? No. Oh. Well this this curve here's got s steps in it but it won't Yeah. be like that. It l it looks curved. If you look on this one. Oh yeah. It's pretty smooth. No problem. No problem, sir. Oh, there's something wrong there. Yeah, it's not on grid. What's not on grid then? No, actually, you want eh, you try it. Alright, erase it. No, don't move it. It looks like that not on grid. No no no no. No. Delete it. Sorry? follow the trace, Yep. Had that before. It's weird innit? Yep. What else have we got? That's why it'd be so nice to be able to w save the work area so when Yeah. you go back in, That's right. you know your grid and everything's all set as it was. Especially on Monday mornings. I find that incredible that you can't do that. Oops. I just turned them on. Oh, dig it. That's a bit close as well isn't it? What that? No that's fine. It's alright is it? Mm. It's only if it goes in and you've got no angle Yeah. there yeah. outside yeah. Mhm. Look at that . Well it's gotta be fairly close to that pin. Probably doesn't make any difference. Then it'll be it'll be even with the other one then won't it? It's so different isn't it? Yeah but it's got erm Yeah but then you've gotta bend all those tracers haven't you? I've put it there so that it'll look neat. I don't see why not. God Bedge, you are a pedantic bastard. What's that? Yeah I know but John's anyway. Go to help. Hit the help and say page Don't you wanna see if you can put page numbers I don't think so. I couldn't find anything for I wouldn't have thought you'd wanted to, that was the thing. I know, but It's cos you're using it for an improper You see the way it's done a trace there, sometimes it'll Yeah. it'll delete that for you. Oh, it deleted half of it. just check Yeah. You can't transfer into any other. Mm. I tried to load it into erm Word and it completely screwed up. You'll have to move that one over here and that there. That's got well you can move that and then you can probably move that there. Well do it how you wanna do it, not how I was gonna say, yeah. It's always a problem. Bedge is the worst one for that. Yeah. You wanna do it like this. You don't wanna do it like that . Oh that's weird. I haven't seen that one before. when he's not happy he comes and re redesigns it all doesn't he? Yeah he does doesn't he? Mm. That's what I mean about this bloody thing, that it doesn't it straighten it. I'm working with bloody amateurs. Takes one to know one. you we are. Bastard . No you ain't got the switched on. boy. You had it then. Oh hang on Delete it. That's it. there. Er no. Ain't too bad is it? Oh dear . Now did you get the the couplers the right way round on the erm ? That's a innit? Yeah. I've dropped me pencil. That's alright isn't it? Yeah. Well there's only sockets going in. Sockets are bigger than the chips normally so No you have to be really careful. That'll go in there easy. If it won't go in stick it in at an angle. No if you if you buy a different make of , some of them stick out further and they foul it. We've had this problem before. Mm. So it's best just to be er on the safe side. Man of knowledge. Ha! What'd we do without this boy, eh Norm? What? I said what would we do without this boy? A lot more than you do with me probably, yeah. . Cos this week he's gonna be fucking useless. He'll have a fucking racetrack on there. He's round every single race circuit, now don't you worry. Tell you what, He's jobbie he's going whizzing round there. Tell you what, it's bloody tempting to take a couple of days off work just to burn I'm d I've never been this excited over a bike before. You've got a new bike have you? Yeah. Oh. Well I haven't yet, I haven't picked it up yet. You been having wet dreams about it? Yep. Well he hasn't, I have. Oh it's so quick to go between now isn't it? Yeah. Can you remember the old days? Yeah you'd think, Oh I'll do Eh? that in a minute didn't you cos you'd think What? Can I have my seat back then ? Mm. What's wrong with this one? You got something against this one? Yeah. Well it's short, that's on it? It's short, that's 's one. off. one. Gonna say er here has No. You're not? these the ones we use Oh hang on, hang on, you went and didn't you, so we need to Done all that. While you've been fart-arsing around around the labs Ah. somewhere I've done it all. I had to go and er see someone Fucking hell. Erm how do you do it without redoing the thing? Do you just move Now there's a reason why I've got this view up at the moment, alright. Don't tap the screen, you'll scratch it. That's what he said to me on Friday Right. I'd've been inclined to do that thing on it. Yeah. speeded it up quite a bit. Do what? The thing. Oh for redraws. And then change it back afterwards. Mm. Right. If you do hare whoops, area select, right, Mhm. you can pick it up can't you? Cos you know where it wa where it is now you can just move it. But the reason I've got this up is because when you do an area select it selects the board outline. So if you if we go move You can Pick the other one up as well. And then you put that down where you think is the right place and you get really pissed off cos it's moving really slowly and moving the board outline as well. Yeah? It picks up the board outline. If you do an area select alright, it picks up the board outline as well, it selects the board outline. Why? It's just the way it does. Cos Cos it selects anything that it touches right and cos it's inside the board outline it thinks it's touching the board outline Oh cos the board outline is a filled rectangle? Yeah. Ah right. Right. So that if you have this view up, you can see whether it's selected or not. Right? Oh I get it. Yeah. Let me show you let me show you again So you then deselect that before you Yeah what you do, you area select, right,okay, now if you watch the window it lights up right, Yeah. and then you go point select and then click here, alright, in open space, and it Yeah. deselects the outline. And you've also selected half of that chip. Yeah. And you just Point select right? Yeah. And then you just move I've moved them two cos Yeah? So you're happy. Why can't you just Ecstatic. point select the er ? Well yeah. If you if you do Well you can, but if it's been unbound then Yeah. it's just a load of lines. Point select you've gotta pick that up, you gotta that up and you gotta pick that up. Or you can select it and then say bind er and then deselect it and then pick it up and move it. Yeah but what if you're really good with your area select? No look, look, look, no. Area select right, whatever you do Right area select. I'll try and pick up alright. Really careful with it but you still pick the outline up cos it's in that area. Thing is, it's alright to tell people but they have to s know for themselves to be sure. Oh what? You cannot do area select without selecting the broad outline. Honest. That's your project for the rest of the week, is to try and area select without picking the broad outline up . I think if you clicked on it and unbound the outline I think you might avoid that. No that won't select Come here, let go. Let's try something. I think that whole lot got unbound Well no cos they're all when I when I I area s I What happens is right selected the whole board and I unbound it. Yeah you select the whole board. When you unbind it it just stops it from joining all the bits together. You then have you would then have to go unbind on the chips to separate the chips again. ? Yeah. I reckon if you decompose the outline alright? Mm. Okay. So that means if you picked a bit of the outline up now, pick a bit alright,I reckon if you do area select now select Yeah you gotta select the outline then. That's a Right, I think you should get all this stuff written up into a file, a help file. screen on here is there? No. pages. Doesn't help you very much though, not on this. Manual's behind you. I never thought about that you know. I mean I thought you'd be able to click onto move and hit F one say, and that'd give you a help screen saying to move something, click on it and move to where you want . But you know that. Yeah well it well it'd take up disk space unnecessarily Mm. wouldn't it? Right, you put any text on the outside of the board? No. Haven't you got a file that you dumped down saying about ? Well come on then. Right. That's what you're here for. What we gotta do, we gotta Got to earn your keep. You're very keen on underscores aren't you? Yeah, it makes it more readable. . Oh, what you that for? It's got it now. That's how the old systems used to be with everything didn't they? Hey. Change all that. That that needs to be updated. man, job for you. He knows. Was what you were telling him this morning, was it? Yeah. Aha. No you're not supposed to put five in there. No no no no no. That's very Twenty four. Splendid . Okay. Bob's your uncle. Right. Let's have a look at it. Texts. Yeah. What's say? Two . Twenty four. Now I just wanna Twenty four. You haven't got a label on this Thing is it remembers the text from the previous one so you can er just type it in. It's lovely innit?. Haven't innit. Right You know you were talking about them deleting all er references? Yeah. Have you considered having holes in the ground and inside the board one on top of the other? Why? Well then you can put your reference in there and they can't er erase it. hold it up to the light put me on the inside. Oh yeah. There's no reason why we can't. Yeah. Well why don't we do that? Well It's only Yeah but you were moaning about them taking er all the detail off. Yeah that's true, yeah. There's nothing to stop me from putting it You could put the in there as well. Yeah. So it'd be like Yeah but what they do, they've got all the artwork, so all they do is they go over with a black pen on the artwork. Oh. . It's true. Oh th so they don't take the files and and them No. on a machine? Oh. Sometimes they do. So they just shove some tape over it. That's a bit off isn't it . Oh dear. Oh shit, hang on. Thought I just called that Silk Screen didn't I? Yeah I was gonna say, what you call it that for? You just want Silk don't you ? You what? You just want Silk. No. two in there.. Oh yeah. . Oh goodness. make sure they get the layers all the way all the right way up, Yeah. and not transposed or anything. Get this right in a minute. Tut. Shit. I never get it in the right place. Ah! Ah! What? You had layer three down there and layer two up there. Did I? Oh fuck, Yeah. didn't I change it again? No. Oh and the bottom layer has to be mirrored doesn't it? Yeah. On the X or the Y? Doesn't matter really. Phew it's lucky I'm on the ball isn't it? It is. Ow. Ow . And I think, I'm not sure, I think it puts it back round the other way tut. Shit Er two. You've just done layer two haven't you? I've just screwed something up there. Blast. Tut. I hate C P M It's there again. That time It won't let me do c oh it's caps. Control F seven, that what causes that Got it in caps. Right, that's layer three. Happy with that? Mhm. just need a text . Don't you want the other one? This is reverse text. You want that one don't you? Four. Voila. Ooh. Tut. Such a lovely machine. Be a good little database this one Yeah, since you rebooted these machines it's been okay. Er That's alright, I'll finish it off. Erm template. Yeah. Okay. I was gonna give it to Ian to take to college tonight, but he's not in so I can't, so I've gotta send it now but I can't address. Lost it. Ring her up. Don't know her number. Don't know her name. All I know is her name's Barbara. Which Barbara are you talking about? Er is it the one that lived in Felixstowe? Yeah she lives in Felixstowe, but I don't know what her surname is. Have to go and see George and see if he's er if he's got her number somewhere. I know I have to go down the college tonight . Now what are you're going now what are you're going to do On your er way home er you can pop to the college give to the er caretaker give to this to tonight. They do that. She might Felixstowe. Felixstowe. Oh, bloody hell. What, you not doing any more? Er if this i if we're talking the same Oh hang on, hang on. I might have left it here mightn't I? If we're talking about the same one alright, I've got her address in Felixstowe. Ah! No? No. Just the Thing is we get so much crap through the post right, that er No. Erm If it the one living in Felixstowe, that is the one er alright? Yeah. I've got her address at home. Is there a list of the erm the tutors in the handbook or anything? No. No. The handbook is It's what? The handbook is for the whole Whole course, yeah. Er no, for the whole country. Yeah, whole country, yeah. Whole course. Oh, bloody It's not in your briefcase? No I've looked. It's not at home as far as I can see. I've definitely got one cos I remember her sheet now as I was looking at it, but where it is I'm buggered if I know. Is it not in your big one? No. er I believe you up on the er the level. It's Do you want one then? Yeah. Here,you can have, that reminds me I've gotta do that label haven't I? No not the fucking label. I want it for my two Which one do you want? Small one will do. That one's got lines in it. Squares as well. Dunno why so keen on bloody squares. Is this small one or a big one ? They will do. They will do. Is that for erm ? No anyone any What a loan book? Yeah any . Oh. What blood what washing machine you got at home? Bosch. Eh? Bosch. Bosch. Tut. Got this bloody Hotpoint. Hotpoint. You get crap machines and you get problems mate. That's to be expected isn't it? I usually have er the the German one before about five year but the fucking pump keep on fuck up every other two year. So when the five year come up I've no longer insurance alright,er I so i c if I change the pump costs about two hundred so I s so I said Is that because it's full of chalk or is it cos No it's not That kind of machine is is the water is they they pump the bloody thing up so far,so your your washing machi your er blah blah bl your your clothes is so dry. You what? Your? When your washing is when you've finished you you open the door, is literally er really dry. You can't see any bloody water. Yeah. So that is why the pump got a lot of problem. We have a brand new one five year erm insurance, part and labour everything two two year we notice the water's not pumping off fast enough so the water's dripping backwards. Mm. So we call a guy say oh yeah, he changing th the er the pump again. He changing er er the the pump. When we move in here, we get this guy come along to look at it, he say well this machine the er the Germans erm they've really the pump is th is really easy to go, and so I can change your pump for you but l in your washing machine washing machine. I change the pump for you, but that is cost a lot of money. I said Look, this bloody thing is five years old now, Mhm. so anything little something like changing the pump, you know I pay about two hundred pound plus his fucking labour. Is not worth it. I can buy a brand new one. er I want to want to buy er er another German one, and then the poxy er spare part Yeah but they're er so well made you sh shouldn't really need to have to change it very often. Yeah but er and also what I found right, Ah! Yeah. only reason I've got one of these bloody poxy Hotpoint because they can fit right underneath erm into my kitchen unit. It doesn't stick out, so I can open the door. It's not as deep as some others then you mean? Yeah. But all the German one is stuck out about what, about inch, so you can't open one the the fucking si side door. Chop a hole in the back. In the wall at the back . And that is a fucking erm the a h a hun a thousand spin. So what?the poxy dry but you can if you squeeze it you can get er some water out. Mm. They only give you one year labour. Well they never make things er bombproof do they? Cos if your washing machine machine lasts for thirty years they'd go out of business wouldn't they ? Yeah but they Consumer society, you see? Yeah but the the reason I look at the the poxy Hotpoint because they say well, they guarantee their part for five years, alright? Mhm. So I say ah, the the part must be fucking good If they last five year I'm quite happy. they last er for five years. How long you had this thing then? I just got it last year. About a year ago, February last year,ni ninety one. And it's conked out? It's not co it's still working, but it's the you can see the the washing is not as dry as it was before. Ah. So it hasn't actually failed, it's just not up to scratch. It's not functioning properly. Yeah but surely that comes under the warranty then. If it's not doing its job that it's intended to do. Yeah but they only guarantee what if part is failure, if the the guy come to look at it they still charge you labour. Oh. Oh. They still charge you labour. So the parts are free but the labour's a hundred pound an hour. I don't know how much the fucking labour is they they charge. Bloody hell. labour. And the poxy Well can't you fix it yourself? Just take the back off and and you've only got to undo a couple of clips and take the pump off. Yeah I know but er if the pump er You're just idle. if the fucking pump's gone, what the hell am I gonna do? I'm not buy a pump. No, you get, well, do you have to have it serviced to get the the free part then? No, you don't have to. But if er if you Do they only give you free parts under warranty if it's serviced with a ? Yeah. It's a rip-off isn't it? You don't expect you say look, my pump is gone, give me a new pump Well, yeah I do. It's a No. part. And they say how can you prove it is the bloody pump is gone? Well you bl slam it on the counter and say bloody you know, look in there it's got crap in it, it's not working. I mean I've opened the washing machine up I mean literally you can't see fuck all So fucking big job to Mm. what what else? Looks like you've got pig in a poke mate. I say no I think I've got a how er how much for a labourer. You've got a water softener as well haven't you? Yeah. Mm. But the poxy So the pump's working but not works properly. I think so yeah, but I mean So why can't you take the part Is it all a sealed unit that you can't get the pump apart? I don't know. I mean I Mm. If it was me I'd just take the bloody thing out and have a look at it. Yeah but fucking open it up kids will be coming Lock them in the other room. No I try to er to do the erm I clean my erm the w er cooker hob. hob right the grease And I try for I cleaned everything up, Mm. I put back in and er nothing So have you make this Barbara ? Barbara is it or something like that? Is that her name? Dunno what's her name is. Barba She phoned me up at home on a Sunday, asking Yeah. if I was gonna come down to college, Sounds like her then. and I said erm No. Sounds like Oh fuck she when when er when I evening on er this early this year, Mm. and she say she not go any more student. Because she she go somewhere , she don't want to any more er s er stud Did you make that mess there? No. Who made that mess? I don't bloody know. We'll have to get a camera on that tea point to see who's making the mess. I water I usually to clean the bloody thing In my old group, they just took it upon themselves to clean it every now and again. You won't find Trouble is with this group, nobody gives a fuck. They just sort of You won't find If er I'd myself, I would fucking clean it. I use the bloody table and wipe it off. But you won't find anyone in this group. Erm you used to be able, this tea point in the office right, you saw it the fucking on Mm. on top of the filing cabinet. And Martin keep fucking on and on, and one day she come in here,and she said why don't you clean ? Er he had a So he she and going on and on, nothing to do with me, I to me. And I said look,nothing to do with me, it's their office right? Mm. They had to keep their eye over, keep tidy. Why should clean their their mess? You tell me. you clean their mess. Why was she sticking her nose in anyway? I don't bloody know. I mean she's she's every day I said Look,what it have to do with you? I pay for it. Alright? Get in early there if you want Yeah. Mm. It's not bloody You get your own now anyway don't you? And so I say like I mean No she's she get on the contract right? I mean one one day we Is her contract gonna be renewed then? I don't know. She s tells er s the people er talking to the Yeah. I think it is Your job is reception and you just sit in there bone idle Nail your arse to the seat. Yeah. And she go everywhere and er come down here and chat with er all these men so And also er you know when er Twin Peaks, Ruby. Twin Peaks . She usually goes upstairs right,an and Yeah. we had a hell of a urgent copy photocopier, and no-one can can do it so we went upstairs photocopy, it's very urgent, we want it we, want to give to our sponsor. She said I can't. She said I've got too many thing to do, it's not my job to do photocopying. Stupid git. And say look, if you say look, give to me and I'll do it for you. So give to and she she she'd do it. And she's the bloody C O. She'd do it. And contract couldn't do it. Yeah. Exactly. So er she got I mean what? To be honest I mean what er Well what does she do? She sits there and answers the telephone basically. And and and our bloody And comes and moans about her marriage. Yeah, and when our fax s come It's really weird. I used the fax machine alright. S some poxy fax upstairs. even some fucking urgent right. Mm. It's not she won't bring it down. She brings it down when she's doing something else. And er one day I went up there and er erm in there for for over two hours right, and who's the the P A er used to be er . What's her name? Oh erm Shirley. No no, she also contract as well. Erm What's her name. Er Daphne. Daphne. Mm. Yeah. And she say er this this and you've been here er long time. So I go oh yeah I mean they fucking mark it urgent,any person mark it urgent, say urgent right? Mm. Is not er if there's some for me I don't bloody care. Well times I receive a fax I just keep going up there and bothering them until they say it's gone through. And so but Justin So I just say look, if you're not going office right? Mm. So we know about it. Is that why they've got a fax machine then? they they Mm. Er a lot of time wh when when you get a fax er and they not deliver to us, half a day late or The whole idea of erm a fax is to get the thing there quickly isn't it?if it's sort of sitting up on a desk for three days before they bring it down. Oh! Your fax has been here for about a week now, I'll bring it down for you . Mm. What's the problem? Talking about faxes. Oh. Well don't u er don't use the fax machine use the one in the office. What's the number for that one, anyway? Er What a memory. Yeah. , yeah. Mm. Mm. Bloody catalogue. I'll chuck in the bin. Never know, you might have won something. No. Congratulations, you have won a holiday to Canada. That'd be nice wouldn't it? I have registered. That doesn't matter. They not deliver to you. A mail catalogue is not I know. They just leave them in the post room don't they? communal. literally they said they stop your your personal mail. Mm. I mean if you It's only cos they're too idle to cart these catalogues and things about. They don't care. When me and Frank were in the in Lo in London we got about fifty of these bloody E mail catalogue come in the same address. The trouble is, people register for er with them because they they're offering No. a free pen or something like that. No they're not. They do sometimes. They give them a some of the information. They must be able to buy a database of the people's name Mm. a lot of the the junk mail. Mailsort. Mm. Yeah the amount of crap I get through the place you wouldn't believe it. All different titles. Doctor and erm er Head of Research and er things like that you know? They're just guessing. junk mail. Oh yeah. P C magazines and stuff. Oh shit . How am I gonna get her bloody number then? If I sent that today it'd be there Wednesday morning wouldn't it? If you sent tomorrow still be there. If I put first class on here. Fuck . So where's Ian ? He's on leave. What for two days? The only day I actually wanna see him and the bastard's on leave. What, today only? As far as I know, yeah. Oh, how did I do that?. you can You can reach her. You say look I'm student, right,I lost the th address of the er whom to send to and I've got an assessment to send in but I don't know how the hell I'm gonna send it on. So can you er give me the details? I'm sure George has got it actually. Oh, bloody hell . It's just one little slip of paper in an envelope, and they always send it separately. They never send it with the No, they send it in a bloody big one. With everything. Well they didn't this year. They do. It came in a small erm small envelope. It did. Cos I remember, I remember picking it up and reading it, I was out in the garden at the time. They send about half this size. Always they do. That's A four. Half the size. paper is A four, you fold it into erm in there they got er c three or four paper as well, they tell you about all these er tutorials. Yeah. Everything in it. The the day of your tutorial, your tutorial's name, Ring him up. Ow! Give him a tinkle. Tut. Time does the mail go from here? Mm? What time does the mail go from here? From here? Mm. About three o'clock. I think the erm the the post'll come about four o'clock I think. It should be by four o'clock is collect every single mail on-site,sort it all out, internal or external. Mm. I know er the if you go there before four o'clock But usually they er they Ah! Tut. Well I'd better get on with my berno binomial theorem then. I need a new pair of jeans. Look at the state of these things. all frayed, pockets are frayed So did the train come on time? On Friday? Yeah, yeah, she was there. I was actually late getting there. So much traffic on a Friday afternoon. Very good. the bypass. Did go on the bypass. That's where the problem was. Yeah, but if you go on the Ha! That's what I'm after. Nothing really at the moment. Got any stamps? Er yes. First class? Yeah. . Can I er have just one? . That's great,thank you . What's in there? It's a tape, innit?. Of what? Of whom?what do you like? Oh er Ah! Oh it's just radio at the moment. Oh. Ah! Hi. That wasn't that wasn't meant do that. Wasn't you? Oh okay. I believe you. I'll come back in a minute. Yeah. Erm Er where's Georgie? Erm I thought he was up in not. No he not in there now, boy. He may have gone swimming. swim really. And he's still got all that weight on him. Wouldn't know about that. Erm yeah. He could have gone swimming , Where's Phil? other than that Phil is over at lunch. He'll be back soon. Okay. I'll pop back later. Not still washing that cup up ? Oh you've finished now. Oh no, I'm tea. Got some change ? Er Er depends what for. Well I've got a quid, so a stamp's twenty four isn't it? Is it? Is a first class twenty four? Isn't it? Daphne. Mm? How much is a first class stamp? Twenty two, twenty three, something like that. it's not gone up to twenty four has it? I don't know though. books of stamps Do you know what a first class stamp is? it is about twenty four. It is about that. No I don't. It is twenty four. first class. I think it is twenty four. I charged John twenty two. Go back and get the cash then. I'll have three first class stamps off you then Carol. I've got a yellow card for The thing is they don't put the value on any more do they? No. No. Which That's so they can print thousands of them Which there again is quite good Yeah. because if you've bought first class stamps and you've got a load of them then you haven't got to go and buy those tuppeny P pieces to put on. when they go up. Yes. first class Yeah that's right. Erm brilliant. Thank you. Don't lick it. I'm not licking it. Ooh I know you've been licking it. Thank you. Thanks very much. Cheers. Black covers on this Yeah, they ah, they We, I stapled them all la ages and ages ago and they still came off. They're just crappy chairs! Yes. Well they were okay and then just suddenly started doing it. Runcologist. Ha! Let's go in here, see I've locked the screen up so we're laughing. Makes a change! Feet off the table! Do you have to say that ? Oh you don't put them like that! Oh yeah. Put the new hole sizes on the drilling table? No, that's what I'm saying, true I just did that used to be a rotary. Ah, have you lost all the graphics that went around it. Doo doo doo doo doo doo Yeah. It's there. Where's the big table and that on the edge then? That's in er in here. Oh L? I'd a proper I had a proper drill, oh you're talking about the new ones? No. There was three. Oh that's right. Yes. That's why I was a bit confused Oh they should be a drill non-plated, and a drill plated. Yeah, we got P T H,through hole That's cool! non-plated and drill. And exactly what I would of said. What's drill ? I dunno. How do you know? You haven't even thought about it screw head! Anyway, what can I do? He always makes out that it's his idea doesn't he? Oh yeah, I knew that would work! ! What a bastard! But you got a red light there look! You go on regardless and there's a bloody red light down there! Yeah, well I I tried to get rid of it but it wouldn't go. Urgh, don't spit on my cheek! I'm not actually! Erm going to graphic centre. That's right. There's no room for my share. Put it away! What? Chaps, integrity them toge Anyone? Did you get your ? Sorry? And have a game of . Know what I caught on Wednesday night do you?! Family. I got . Yeah, wouldn't be so bad . Right, solder resist. Yeah, it was true wasn't it? Oh sorry! That's the one I want ! I'm only winding you up! Na oh yeah go, go through the solder resist go on. Oh , make your bloody mind up boy! There. Right. Re-draw. Right when those blue ridge tooling holds up you wanna put a big resistor down there. Two length holes. Oh, the things! I thought that would generate it automatically. Well it wouldn't. No. Why not? I thought it was from generator to a pipe, couple of hand brakes in there. Give it here! It's it's easy to . Sure , yeah. Now, now watch the burn. I know. Come on! I know! I will clear it up post haste. We need some coffee mats here. I think I'll No you pick up a load of beer mats. you're not supposed to have drinks in the cad area. No but I I let you guys bring in drinks because most this system on you wouldn't have a You're not like old er misery guts then? Misery ! Misery ! Alright, control F seven Ah that fucking, oh he, oh he's ball right into a decent size at last! Yeah, I changed it. No, this is still crap! No it's not! It is! It's great! Had it on A columns that's why two columns are missing ! Great innit! Great! Aha. Er, you need a solder resist around there why? Because, if you'd done right, the solder resist they try and put it all over there and it's gonna screw up their manufacturing and stuff. You don't want it to cover the old hole! Right? Screws on the . Yeah, cos, the solder just li links into the big hole and you don't want it cos it can screw up the size of the hole then. You don't wanna do it. Have you got anything on that? But Well I don't know a lo , a great deal about manufacturing which is a bad thing really. I need to know the order in which it was on. Right. So you do a little circly and you have it full Oh that's clever innit! See that? Yeah. With the to two combined to make it visible. And at the front. Oh we'll just stick it twenty five parallel, alright? Get it . Okay? Good! It's the wrong colour! Don't be stupid! Why's that the wrong colour? Well you jus I just don't siam that's all! Oh no! Can you hear what this boy's saying Norman? Yep! What a waste of space! Oh oh, God! I think I can be excused this week cos thi , the wife's away. What with no sex? I used to think through it! I had sex this morning, it was quite good! The conventional missionary ! by now. What's the number? Phone up enquiries will you? Ah dear! Right. I suppose you have time in the mornings ! I don't. That's one of Do you walk the dog as well? reasons I was late this morning, but apart from bloody erm Oh course you're on flexitime aren't you? I wanna be on flexitime. I might come in I hate You could having to get out of bed when I'm knackered! You could always negotiate it with me Mark. I'll certainly say no, but there you go! Never mind ay! I'll have to negotiate with Frank don't I? Not you! You're just a small boy! No you sho , no, you should do it through me. No you should do it through Tony actually. Oh I'll go through you then. , can I go on flexitime? Well no, I mean, if you've gotta come in I don't see why PA's can't have if you wanna come in at nine flexitime? Why, what annoys me out here right, every other ooh a lot of the areas are on bloody nine day fortnight. I mean that'd be brilliant! That'd be so good! So you'd work a nine day stretch and then have a load of days off? Yeah. Now we have every other Friday off. It's brilliant! You can move it ! No I didn't realise I wasn't sure whether it was there or not. So would I have to work longer then? During the week, sort of till ha Yeah. till five? Well of course they do! Still have to do thirty seven Yeah. half hours a week! So you work till five instead of half four and then he knocks off. Yeah something like that. Mm. And he knoc , and you don't work the Friday. Oh that's good! It's brilliant! And then if you have to work the Friday it's overtime! isn't he? Oh fuck off you! Everybody's doing it! So can I do it? It's at the back and none at the front. Yeah that's right. It's . Right it's solder resistant. Mm. Mm? What with you and Norman together! You have a nice hairstyle between you! Have you seen Colin's? Ye , actually yes,that's I wouldn't Fucking hell, his, his Mrs did it he said! and be , and I'm not surprised, looking at it! Good Lord! Is is he in here? No, he's not. Oh shit! I was hoping he was gonna be in there. He's down there. It's brilliant! Yeah, I thought he had something strange about him this morning. I walk in this morning, I'm ever so sorry Colin! And it took about two minutes to twig what I was going on about ! Oh! What are you playing with there Norm? The guy's always playing! He's changing, changing some every bloody minute I think, he must change! He's got Well he just have to cycle round, every time you log out his go in a different . Yeah, I mean, he he tries to stay on random. No, I wanted I wanted to scrap er a pretty one then. Right. Ah, I've just remembered something else I've gotta do. Ooh God ! You're gonna have to move erm those three chips. Shall I just crack it then? I can't get the stroke right. I think you're a dick lover anyway! You liar! What are you, well it wasn't you actually. Everybody laughs at Justin. I'm not surprised. Gets sma smashing in the fucking Mercs oh Eighty thou is two millimetre isn't it? He's a slaphead Norman! Is eighty thou , two millimetre, Norm? What? Is eighty Norm thou , two millimetre? Yeah, forty thou , one mill . How come you've got curly hair? That's looking really curly today. Don't! I I can take That's cos his head's a scrotum, that's not actually a hair! He's got loads of pubes growing out ! Yeah, it's a bugger if I'm er hanging round any velcro! What are warnings then Mark? Er problem with the . No, it's not found. Anyway, shall I go and get the bread? Well only if you're sure you've got everything off there then? Er . That's . Bollocks. Oh hang on. Plated no. Heads Were those non-plated? Did you find they was non-plateds? Yeah. You did? Definitely? They were non-copper. No, non-plated's. Non-plated through when you made the shape. If you're sure. Find out in a minute. Yeah but I made them non-copper so they wouldn't . No, that's the pads, non-copper. How's your pad? Mm. I can't remember to be honest. Have to check it. Should be a sixteen one. Ah no wait a minute, it's thick, thick, thick. Ah ! eighty and that one's fifty You what? I'm just trying to move passed that I'm making a couple of holes bigger. These ones. Oh right. You happy now Norm? Yeah, I like that one. Well you're a bloody fine one to talk fi , fiddling the back, down there for yonks Oh it's only Friday afternoon, I was waiting for Doris to phone me weren't I? Excuse me. Did you, did hear Bedge what he actually did on Friday? No. Phones him up two minutes past three I'm gonna try and get the three o'clock train! From London! So said Brilliant! oh I don't think you will. Couple of minutes later she phones back, er I missed that one I'll have to get , or the next one! What a corker. What a corker. Stupid daft woman! You wait till I see her! I'll say to her any yeah oh yeah, if we if we get to the station at five past three do you reckon we'll get the three o'clock train? Yeah, that's a cracker that! Just think get like that I said I said she's bound to phone back in a minute! And no doubt, the phone rang. What's the name of the shape? What shape? P L C C's Ha? With P L C C's. Oh P L C C erm I'll keep going next alright? with hole, I think. Don't . Yeah ! Ha! That's alright, But Oh, I'm lo , I'm looking for parts here I think. A O, of . Or is it one eight six on there? The ay? Next one down. Are we using the one eight eight? No , no, no, no. Oh we use the one eight six on it. Yeah. How you doing? With hole! I thought that was really descriptive. Oh shit! Cos these are exactly the same except with a well and two erm those four holes missing. Oh this you'll be there all day! Okay, alright. Bing Plated no spot on! I'm impressed! What about the forty eight one? I take it it's P L C C With a hole, yeah. Ah, wrong one! Forty eight, forty eight. No it's forty four. No it isn't. That's okay innit? Excellent stuff! Splendid! Right. So we had to get th the drill table sorted out. That cancels yeah but today, I think don't we? Oh! What's next after this then? Well I've just gotta make sure the drill template's on. Oh well, once this is done. Well we're both back onto erm the wotsit The piston. Oh that's quite good. That's funny, old erm Colin came in and you know that one with a the sort of screen save and the the screen shot of that three- D Yeah. I can't really manage to get a a . I said have a go with it. He sort of think, you know with the balloons on it, so he go he got the mouth part and urgh! Mr gullible! Right, if we do a whole list. Remember VMMT. VM, MT? You what? Have a to the whole list. Those are plated through holes. Ah! Fifty, sixty? Ah that's why, fifty doesn't . VMMT. V M M T V, I reckon. V or B. Fifty. Anyway se these are always named upper case so it will always be . Yeah, but you've already got B there for sixty. Oh yeah! V W or something. lum lum la la lum la la lum lum mm . Oh I know, ah! Just type in a minute and I'll Why's that bill still Marking information . Yeah, Bill's got a an amber light. That's right, I can't see anything in Why's that? Cos it's not quite built? Yeah. What's X? Right that one's got the table on instead of the graphics. I don't wanna lose that table, cos I don't want to have to write it all again. Yeah? Mhm. So by That's a sod that isn't it? You do a re-drawing, it disappears ! I hate people who do that! What? These chair covers! It's cos they don't sit in the seat properly, they slouch in them! Make it drag! Ah er what's it like living with you then? Great! Couldn't be better! It's alright for me! Your poor Mrs! No, she's alright. It's an area area select. Right. Okay, what we can do, if we graphics we bind that alright? Okay, then we do points of reference and then we do graphics name symbol, yeah? Aha. Yeah I did this Well the before. You can save it to er erm Simple table. simple table. Oops! Right? Enough? Then you can pull it in. Yeah. Okay, so select a it's a lovely machine! . 's using the ace. ace for er PC's. And it's quite quick. Quite good! Oh you can get it off a pc can you? Yeah, you can, it's only a a demo thing at the moment. It's quite good! Right! Doo do doo . Is it all exactly the same functions then? Same layout as this. Slightly different. Might be a bit different. It's bit of a migration, it can hardly turn its head. What about erm thing? What's it run on V G A? Yeah, it will run on V G A. Run on E G A as well I think. Can't be a very good graphics one. Well I run it on mine next. Can't u , can't use the right. Is it the demo you got from Datatrip Yeah. Right,holeless VMMT V M M T WS. Oh yeah. Seven inch. No.. This to come out. Right, that's all the non-plated ones isn't it? Alright. Shit! What is doing now? Yeah,. The er sump has gone in it. Right that's the the P T H You're not opening into the file are you? No I don't need to. Don't . And you Old with thirty fi , thirty five mill Bit like mine is it? Possibly! Can't remember It having a thirty five mill it might be in the centre of the P L C C's. No, they're big holes ain't they? Huge! See they're huge! Well no, there's a little pad there. A pad, it's it's not a pad it's an actual hole. Oh! Hole with diameter thirty five mill . Thirty five mill ? I do , it doesn't ring a bell actually. Thirty five mill , at all. Norm ! Yes? What uses a thirty five thou hole? Erm Crystals? Crystals is about the only thing that would use it. Can't imagine what's changed it. Why do you have so many different hole sizes? I mean surely you could have a point eight for crystal and still solder ? No, well Or is both sided, soldered? The flow soldered if the hole's too big cos the crystals is thinner. Yeah. It wicks up through. Also erm It's no problem but polystyrene plastics are are very good crystals. Yeah. We're not using polystyrene anyway. There's a thirty three in there. Ah, ha ha ! Uses thirty five mill ? Wah ah oh oh oh Oh. . It's definitely a thirty five. . What would use thirty three Norm ? Yeah, well it's small.. Yeah. Erm He's trying to think. Must have updated the crystals then? It's I think I might have erm used thirty three on the crystals and now the shape's been updated. And there's nothing particularly unusual on that. Crystal's would be erm one eighths And the veers What about the veers? They're quite small. These are twenty fives aren't they? These are twenty , yeah. These are twenty, yeah. Thirty threes, thirty seven forty six, so well thirty threes must be the crystals, thirty fives I don't see what they're gonna be. er sha What letter are you er Oh I'm not worried about the letters at the moment. Just got it sitting in Well it's never had that before, I'm just trying to work out where it's come from. Can't you do a a select? Name select or something and pick out a one of the pads with that hole? No, you can't, there's erm I see. You haven't got anything unusual that's gonna be small. No. Oh I've got a thirth three hold iron or on the er crystals look. Yeah, alright. Tha , that's probably a mistake in the past before we had all this changing. Right. I'll define Cos now we've gone up to thirty fives, I'm pretty sure. Just er They're both the same footprint, those two Sorry? These two are the same footprint. Yeah. What about that one there? Bedge? Oh that's cute! Oh ah Who got that one? Little one there. I think they should all be er I know what it could be! I know what it is! We know what it is. Er What a , what are Zener diodes called, shape? Which ones? Jus Just a normal Zener. It's not on there but Oh erm It's on the back. R four, no D D three over four sixty? Is that a normal , a normal Zener one, Z is is in some ways. I think it uses the same footprint doesn't it? Yeah. Oh hang on, let's let's let's do it the easy way. It's very quick. Two, three and a so sixty that's good innit? Whoops! And si , six, six, six, six, six, six. I bet you pound of thirty fives cos that's a new one machine. That's a new component I put on there and that would be updated , yeah. there. That's what it is. So all the thirty two's have gotta be changed to thirty fives. Well , is it thirty three, or thirty five. Thirty five rings a bell, erm . Oh, find out . I can't find an easy one can I? I could look at the library can't I? Yep. Cos I know they're all up to date. You know the check that went in? Mhm. Something vague with this split window innit in? See if they're in the same file and two different bits two places on the file. It's doing code and you need to change several entries or something. Mm mm. Just split your window. Brilliant! I'm not with you. Well if you've got a big file right? And you're changing all your currencies of a certain variable Yeah. you can have it at the top where you've changed it and then the window underneath you can scan it through the file again. Alright? Brilliant! Nice though. You pick them . Can't you just do a find? Can you Find and replace. wait five minutes? Yeah, you probably can. Cos I've got something to take over, you might as well take them over . Can you find the ye , if is there any yellow pads about? We've gone right out. I'll pick up somewhere. Er, yellow pads? You know the you pull out the information. So what were you up at lunchtime then? Thirty seven is a different one altogether again isn't it Norm? Hang on! Make that the same After you call the same symbol alright? I make it the same size okay? I wouldn't of thought there's sod all difference between thirty three and thirty seven. No. Yeah, but you have to tell it. I'm not ready Norm! Cos it sees both of those holes in the data range. Oh ya! Hey, I saw this bird Norm Yeah. Yeah. That Justin's trying to er Pull pull. but he says he isn't! Don't laugh! He's completely ignoring me now! Now I've seen him interfering with the smoke alarm now! Thought that was quite remarkable! Oh you know that we were talking about What she look like? working here from the pub. Dear oh dear oh dear! Yeah. Still soaring in he with that? What a halibut ! E any good for a titty wank No, no good for a titty wank No, totally bare! A titty wank ! We used to call it breast fucking but that's much nicer! No, too Tha , that's too descriptive. titty wank All calls for a Titty wank tea break and I like that, I like the er the phrasing. Titty wank Titty wank Did you have a titty wank over the er weekend now your wife's back? Ah! No? Not big enough mate! No, nor is that, bloody right ! What the tits or er Well if it was if mine was small I'd be alright on mine. Ah well! Titty wank, I like that ! It's one of the funniest things I've heard for Oh, minutes! Micro-seconds! Urgh, what a horrible colour! Norman's got the bland taste again. Yeah. I didn't set this one, this is bloody he set Oh that's it up! gross! What? Right. Gross of public . Expensive . Yeah, get my posh car. Do you know you could do this? What? Not edit within capitals. Oh the software problem. No I didn't. I asked Daniel to leave. Have they? No. No, no, no, leave the room. Leave the room. It's alright bu get off your high horse! I was just gonna say why? No. Well I don't know. I reckon that Daniel's . Might be. Has he had a bad appraisal then or something. I dunno. Dunno. Kevin had one. Well Kevin's a wanker! His . Erm Well give us a shape to look at then. Can't I get. Sorry? Come on! How long you gonna be? Not long. Z three over four sixty? Good grief! On the score sixty. Mm, mm mm . That's the way . That's what we call innit? What's five thou Thirty five thou for the lo Alright. you take three under sixty. What about fourteen dip and under school osc That's a nice one! I think that was drill under Was any school table. Are you sure? You sure Bedge? Drill un under school osc What the first bit of that cos the thing in your mouth. Fourteen dip under school osc Graphics are crap, look at tha , look at that! Oh! Gone completely ! It's not overwriting it is it? Yes! Right. Have you got nothing else to do apart from squeaking chair? Hasn't bought the bloody letters with it! I'm here,. Dash Thirty three, forty six. fetch ! Have you Bedge! erased that layer? Yeah it's all gone now. Sorry I'll get the old Thirty three paint pot. Thirty three is the oscillator Right it should be thirty three. Well that's what they use in the library so that's a I'll make sure the library ones are correct on mine, alright? What are the other oscillators? Thirty five is point nine. That should be point eight five. Should it? Yeah. So it should be dip , thirty three and Yeah. What's the other oscillator, that one that's you lie flat An eighteen osc or something. It's H C eighteen. H C eighteen. Alright, we're gonna have to do a well hard copy here. Oh shit! That means we're gonna have to rebuild that bloody Hang on! Zoom in. No I think the I think they're there. You might find they're with the scrap. Okay. It's it's no problem. It's found it all has it? Yeah, should of picked it all up. That's right. I gotta rebuild this anyway. What a bugger! Yeah, the erm small oscillator is a thirty three as well. Alright. Ah ha ! So there is a difference between thirty three and thirty five? Correct! Looks that way. I'm gonna delete this one. Although saying that one we sent out to erm Yeah. they actually drew the wall at point nine Or point nine five. oscillated everything. The pads are big enough to take it but when we a , you know that, when we had that problem about the er what's a name coming up? Yeah. The solder coming up, we decided we'd go down to what size it should be. Yeah. Thing is the th The bulk of the drawing rules were such that you got the pin diameter plus you know, their size pads and all this and stuff. Yeah. So we basically done to what that is although they said they were just gonna dri , drill a one point nine five Mm. and sort of run it from there. Well it's a strange fault cos Very. Very! They make a big thing about some things, and then some we're gonna drill all that point nine five anyway! Yeah. They made a big thing about us sort of not using one millimetre holes using Mm. point nine five holes, cos that's standard size But that's that's sod all! Yeah. We wouldn't have used one mill on the sc for out side counters and letters they said oh no, they were gonna use wha you know er what's a name? Mr Point nine five. Yeah. Mr was well upset! Phylis? Well upset! Why? They're gonna charge him for casting his . Well course they are! He's dying though! Poor chap! If he was get, get in off his death bed and in. Serves him And when right! He's got When he did plenty of money anyway! wondered if I should have his place. When is it? Er, tonight. I can't play tonight. I'm already playing tonight. Yeah. John might. Four point three O. Four point three O, okay. Are the printers on? Think so. Ah ga ga ga Yeah, they should be! Is it, ain't worth trying him? I can't think of anyone else. Have to Okay. . What about the other one Mr ? if he's genuinely ill, know what I mean? Yeah. Did he what badly? Got flu or something. Yeah. Sounds well rough! He reckons he might be in tomorrow. Yeah. well rough! Right, I better go and ring and cancel my night then. one of those favours . Ta! Er well I gotta phone someone up. ello, yeah I just er wondering can I court I booked for Wednesday night please? This Thursday? Come on! Erm What? Thanks then, thanks a lot then! Okay bye! No, I'm not going! Might have got away then! Don't upset Norm! Swap swap it with a duff one! That's a duff one innit? There you go. Right. What were you wanting to do? Waiting for that joist out the back. Ah! Right erm oh No, not that! Cos I've done, I've done all that! Clicked that. You done that? That's quick . No adaptor. Take this then. It's quicker. Well usually cos I got my feet up on a bench and I can't reach keyboard so I had a fishy sandwich earlier and I feel . I'm not surprised! Especially at the exhaust end . smell it? Yeah. Basically! You bastard! Er Keep . What's the matter with it? Has it got a hole in it? Now I've well I'm trading it in on Saturday night. Yeah. well I was gonna bring it in this morning that's why I was late this morning. I went up the road and it went bang and blew a out the back! And fortunately the end cap was like a , so I went and then I stuck some wadding in just to wire in that head lamp. Help with some erm propylene. Mm! alright Malgood is it? or . Right, I'll have to try it. Bad as that . Sticks in meant to blow it out. It's not cracking now. What's in there at the moment? Well they normally just packed with some sort of wadding, I dunno. Probably asbestos or something. Got a , hell of a hot temperature in an exhaust. Er yeah. Oh just buy a couple of bananas and apple ! ! It'll fill the end up! More like the holes in. Wha what are we on? Drill. Yeah. On the score. No Not plated. Or P T H doesn't really matter which one you got. Okay. So then straighten that end tail. Drill table. What the one that should of been here? Yeah. Just extract it now then. Oh I see, right. Yeah it's got some er,. Course it is. She'll be disappointed! Hello Phil! Alright? Come and join the party! What, is there a party going? Yeah. Oh I'd love to! Well there was, the girls have gone. We're all cas over here, you'll fit in alright. Not worried about age groups are we? Phil, casual . Er blo lo lo lo lo Oh I've been in the . Me and Andy drove into the car park at the Cambridge Exchange on Friday , yeah. and guess who was driving out? Guess who was driving out? Dunno. And we were driving in. Carl . Carly ! Small world eh? Yeah! Exactly the same minute! We if we'd been a minute later we'd have missed him! A minute earlier he never would have stopped! Unbelievable! He was on crutches. Is he? Yeah, cos you know he broke his leg don't you? Yeah, I heard he'd broken his leg. It's it's the en , the end of his football career. Is that jumping off the er wardrobe is it? No, playing football. Got the . If you look in there now right you got a little Yeah there was somebody doing that. Yeah. Like a . That's right, and she was following the . Couldn't bloody steal that one! With all the names on coming round here. I assume in some ways oi ! Bars of text now Who? don't we? Yeah. We got letter What does he want? You put the letter in. No! And we got, hah! Now what's she done? I don't know. Text. These are the ello! Hi! Erm Click. off move Mm. Ahh ah ah! and then go re-draw Oh yes, yes! and then do a This has always been iffy this graphics editor! Here we go! It's not with it No, no, it doesn't work to the same standards does it? Here we go! Fix so you want to convert M to millimetres? I go in with the old one as well, right? Here? Okay. Be writing all the letters by here. In here. Oh right! Oh bloody hell ! You said I wouldn't have to do this! I had to add a bit on the bottom here Bedge. Sorry? Get stuffed! Yeah! I help you. Erm . by any chance Bedge? There you are then. Alright? Clear line is it? Bedge! Smack him! Here we go Terry. Alright? Feel much better now. Why? I just thrown something at the erm Oh I see. Right! He can be troublesome can't he? Now where are we? Mm mm . Okay. Okay. The hole sizes. It's nought point five. Ooh I've ! Mm. Right er point five. Plated? Yep. And Ought point eight five. Why does it have to be highlighted now ? Yeah, I dunno why. Pain in the arse innit! And it's nought point O one. Right. nought point nine five. Point one O five on the bloody silk se , er the painting through can't be that good. One? Yeah, point zero. Yes. is one point O three. Have you been crawling in here Bedge? He crawled in here by himself! a worm! Fucking right! It's unbelievable! He has been playing with it. Mm. Yeah. I hate you lot! It's lovely! Bloody good I'd say! That's fifty quid that you owe me I can take it! One po , one point three L's on here. Six point eight. No,. Right, where's K? Wonder if K's got it K's thick! up there now. K's thick. K, probably doesn't exist now. Ah ah! Leave it on there. L Can't see any other K's on there. No,lea leave it in. Do the whole list again. Right? L? Well L is Non-plated. Yep. As it is, it's three point eight. Did I say two point eight. Yeah. L, three point eight. Yeah, but I mean were they all on the ? Well you wouldn't hold twenty one of these. Or one of these. T's Er Er sixty. They'll probably be old ones. They're probably in there. In the cellar. OMT's again. Where's the board gone? It's round here. I still don't know what he's doing, he's probably got a or something. No, they're Yeah. Two point fives. It's under there the crystal. The regulator. L, yeah, it could do. It's no longer there. Yeah, that's bigger than one point three though isn't it? No. Yeah, that is a huge space three points. Oh two point eight this is. Oh sorry, did I say two point eight? Yeah. Yeah. We're looking for Yes that's what it is. Yeah, but let's not use any more. Well, what we'll do we we'll fill these out right and then we'll do a plot info then we gotta find out what actually he has used. Oh God! No, gotta cancel , go on! Hang on, let me save this first. So Cos what it does, it remembers tools tool holes that used to be on there. It's a bit of a pain! No point in saving it. It's lovely doubly Five foot. Just write it on a bit, bit of paper. On there. Haven't got any little cards have you? Not green ones, no. Oh that's true. If you were ni is there cakes up there? No, the guy was the just filling the bar one up. What, not even erm fruit cake? No. Okay. Hand tools. Sorry about this .. Yeah well I'm used to it. ah ah ah . Ahh! Might pop and see George in a minute. What time's the post go? Post? If I post something to tomorrow morning that'll get there Wednesday morning won't it? Should do. Got a bloody assignment to give in and I forgot I lost the bloody address! Shoo,! Right, V. Mm mm. Now. That's a photo plot. Is there a plot info now? . Now quick on erm grid. Not possible to get the data in datus uphill? the plot yet. We want plot grill. They go there. Go there. Right. I see. Brilliant! Make your way up . Right, and let's do one on the other one as well. Right then. Is something burning or what? Can you smell it? It smelt strange in here but I weren't sure if it was my fish paste sandwich or not! Shit! Just got a whiff as soon as you walked up then! Second time I've been able to smell that. That's the smell from a over there. I reckon them wo working on them laser , the solder iron. No, it smells like erm Like your arse!. Ooh! It smells like erm what do you call that stuff? Heat shrink sleeving. Mm. You've been fucking put this thing on and ! You're not listening! That's alright. Now Have a look at your terminal window, come on. Click, click, clicking! You clicking? I'm picking. I'm clicking! I just put your on Double click that's it. Double click in the . No, you're doing the morse or something! Yes, you did! You bloody fart! . I hate David! Sh! is not right. Got it! Okay, we got a sixty, an eighty, a hundred and ten three hundred and a fifty. I'll remember that.. Mm! Hey Normska ! Yeah? this thing tell you a number of holes. Yeah. Just telling you. Shit! Some of this stuff! So that we hold a window open for . That's it! You set the fire alarm off see! Big fan on as well. Brurghhh Cor! Lovely! Ah, fresh air! Look, do I have to tell you everything? Or have you found it? No. No, I was working out we could do it. I knew that anyway! I told you about that! Right, there's only six. Which side of you addressed today yesterday? So I got hold of the right side. That was just the . He'll know what to get! Was it you the other day that fucking ? Yeah, that's right. No, no! I don't envy you ! A,he didn't say ! He , demonstration. They're very nice! I mean goes down, he's goes Ahhh! Just cos . Cos all yo you said was er Did he shake hands? curly , has a curly got in the end of your in the end of your knob ? In your foreskin was it? That's right. Ah Bedge? Is it your best run them again? Yes. You see! Well why didn't they ask us then? Because you only half time! Well I said no. I mean all the officers said no, he'll probably come round and ask one of you lot ! But What you He done now? He come round and he asked me for a change of a fiver. Oh you've been asked after that. And not being Fucking asking him! cos we got taken over and I says I said no! It's bloody typical! I said no!only. So well can you lend me a pound? I said no!only! Isn't he in the tea cup? No! No. Well he Why not? got he got the sack. Erm but he is a But what do you want? Ahhhh get off! No he erm he started drinking while he was drinking tea right? Yeah. And it was costing him fifty P a week. He started drinking milk by the mug full every day so Milk! Yeah. Yeah! Yeah ! Oh I suppose, like a half pint? And then so he was getting , he was getting a pint a day The the for fifty P a week!! And the the problem here is, he say fifty P! He said Yeah, that's right. he said, look thirty P a pint alright, how many do you drink per week? What a cheek! Yeah! What he was glug, glug, glug, glug, glug Yeah! Well he could bring his own bloody milk in can't he? And then when, when , when he er going he said I I pay fifty P a week he said! He really think Well a bloody pint's about what? Thirty P a pint! At the time,, it's about thirty P a pint weren't it? Yeah. Well it happened. What do you mean he's ? So Complete our orders. he's made my day actually. He's been waiting for you to come off, ain't I Yun? Well how long ago was this then? About Well I took over the beginning of the year didn't I? Mm, about about twenty months ago before that but He didn't, you didn't take out for nearly a year though innit Bedge? Yeah, something like that. Must be over a year. Must be about And you haven't allowed him back in? No. You bastard! . If, if he wants to come in he's got to pay a deposit anyway. Yeah, it's like a credit card now! It was decided that if ! banning their members No! Cos I was gonna use the same the same rules that B T use for their new customers. He's a customer to us. Yeah. It's not, you're not though ! I tell you what, two hundred pound deposit You know all the you know for a line and that they want, you have to all the pay a deposit. he is the the bad boy! But, because of that he's gonna er pay Spondoolies a couple of hundred. Twenty pound a month. It's you really? You bloody fart! It's you you smelly git innit? It's all your fire ! Flames. I know. Actually that's a that haircut reminds me of somebody that's on the telly. Who's that who's guy that plays erm Stan Stan Laurel ! Ben's sidekick in the Paradise Club? Same sort of haircut as that innit? Oh him! That bloke. the, oh the er the ex-copper? Oh No, the vicar. yeah! The vicar, yeah. Yeah. Yeah,th he used to be he used to be a watchmaker or clock er mender, watcher whatever you call it! How big's fifty ? Just give it a couple of weeks and it'll look just like his haircut! Cor, I got another two up the back here. ! And that's because I've had it cut. Hello Jackie! Yes! Hello ! you plonker! Can't keep, can't, keeps from having my hair permed anyway! Alright. Right. I'm not saying a word! What's this?a perm. But we've gotta keep you from having hair permed! You'll be a lovely boy now! About fifty quid for a perm innit? Yeah. got his hair straight Oh! cos it'll cost too much to perm it. Sho sho you shouldn't throw stones in glass houses ! No, just remember the old er, toilet freshener that's all I can say! Yeah. I won't say anything to him just in case you wanna get your own at some time ! Ah dear! About the freshener. Fucking hell! Where's that K hole? Which one? It's tele what's, what size is fifty thou ? It's one point three innit? No, one point two. No, no Right. no! One point two is er, fifty thou. Sure? That's what I've er, got on my one anyway. Well if you think about it Yeah alright! Yeah, I'm not worried! I'm not is It's gotta be one point two five if that's over there. Yeah, it's about one point two five, yeah. Well a hundred thou is a tenth of an inch innit? Right, hang on a sec cos the K's here You're not going to crap! there's some K's here that don't exist on the board alright? Yeah. Yeah. A tenth of Yeah. twenty five point four. Now he won't ask us. I mean what It's telling me there's when it still one in there. when the erm force fifty sixty and I but I probably don't Yeah. know where it is. Come here, so ! And course, they make . What size have you done these? Have you give them plenty of choice? Right. Not plated, I think Ah well it's sixty I think. Or something like that. Yeah. And then It's where the end, end, end is. You won't want that you can Who are you doing? , well No, path. Right. And then, then you say ah! And then you say well if you can go When we going on our er as we away? Is that what happens? They they won't fucking ask us! The only one who will do it is left, he'll be He might ask you though, cos you're the new boy. He won't. He won't even . What to go to London? Yeah. With him. To football. With him. Oh my God! Get stuck in a toilet somewhere! When the er when er, Geoff and er Steven come back he was, want me and Andy to go down there to have a look at sa , a stand and we said no we don't a lot of bloody money isn't it? So what? We're going to Birmingham aren't we? Yeah that's right. N E C. And I don't think we'll be Bet it's packed though. No! When you going? It's alright. When are you going? I don't reckon you'll fit on there to What? be honest! You cheeky bastard! I like , I might go and see The Doors then. Where? Birmingham. You're not bloody ! It's the managers only! Alright! It's just the managers only mate! There must be No trouble then! I've only just realised right, they're gonna can't you? Eeee ooh Where's that fucking K hole? It's really pissing me off! They're probably isn't one! There must be one. Do you want me to tell you how I did mi , how I did it on mine? Divide it into quarters, you know, do a domain of that area And then look for and then lo , look at it and then just do it like that. It's the only way you can do it. You know the easiest way don't you? Delete the whole lot and start again. No. Fill out a drill template with just the K hole in it Yeah! That'd be quicker. Well go do it then! you can't find those holes by saying find it you know the holes ce certain Find hole. diameter. Well you can. Well they're all on the board somewhere. You can but er Bedge hasn't he likes the hard way you see. Mm. You mean Bedge can find your ? oi!! Lovely! Piss off! Why don't you lot wank you there! Oh, horrible I should think! that bird with the long hair. Ay? Have a good spunko in that! Did you win today? Ay? What? Did you win? Course I fucking did! I bet if Bedge's hair was straight you know, it'd be right down to here somewhere. Why don't you put in there, this one tool set, tool set Mm. Mm. suggest . Now just say output. Go and see if there's a bun in the machine will you? There they are. They're the little buggers! Oh they're the fucking bloody, I knew it was them! Oh course you did, yeah! What are they? Fucking knew it was them! I told you it was those! That's I said it was an eight. In there , but the battery, I told you! That's cos they're hidden under the battery I couldn't see it. It's because you said there was one hole, but there's two that's what it probably means. I was looking for one hole. Oh yeah! Well! Right. Are you ? Norman's always looking for one hole aren't you Norm ! One point two, you sure it's one point two. Well that's what I did mine as. thousand from two make mine . One point yeah, one point two five. Put What about sixties? One point five. Oh yeah! A hundred ten is two point eight. Three hundred is Three hundred? He's fucking ! Oh wha , it is a big hole is it? No. Well thirty is divide it by forty. Three hundred I got Three hundred times twenty five point four. No,so Cos that'll be six point, five One mill is forty thou . One mill is forty thou . We ain't . Yee ahhh Get the old calculator out. Ah! Oh that's erm ah yes, I should try to use the calculator if I could find it on the machine! Four zero equals Equals Seven point five! I told you! You didn't! I did! You didn't! I said seven point five! I didn't bloody hear you! Break, go for a break. already? That's full! I was giving Norm the coppers. Who? . I wouldn't take them . Get your own! And you're not ! And bloody that's mine! cup of tea . Oh right. They're mine, you cheeky bastard! Now! Oh yeah. just give them to Paul. You only move one decimal place don't you? Well Paul don't mind, he'll give them straight back to me you fucking idiot! And then Well anyway! No! What are you playing at? Centimetres. All this . I know! I did it! No, if I did it. No! I did the actual removal of the pin. No, it's who did it. He didn't No he did the easy bit, I did the hard work! Well this lovely , lovely boy did it for me! And you can get what he's got. Are you gonna do his appraisal? No thanks Mark. We we've stuck you up on that already! You wait till I Did you do your counselling interview? Mm? Did he do the cancelled in this? No, I haven't been counselled. I wanna counselled. Oh right. I mean I fucked it up!call as well see what that one's gonna be like. So where's my counselling? Come on! I could do with a laugh! I don't know see it's out of my hands mate! It's gone! Paul's not gonna do them all is he? Paul ? I dunno. Unless they do a mass one, together. We're all fucking useless alright? You made a right fucking mess of that lad, didn't you? He's had his. Had his already. I've had mine. Who did your then? I had him. Oh what er one of the brothers. What do you get? What do you get? A's and B's. Oh you bastard! I did! Why? on on Friday I think the sun shines out of my bottom! might be job cut. Yeah? You're not gonna sit here and no bloody work you know! Sort out of them which ones you don't want. Well you've done everything so far! Yeah. You just get bored of it now aren't you? So you sling them, sling them down the track! Er Right, look, look, look! Well which ones aren't we using? V T H then. What is the point of Hang on a minute! That is ridiculous! No it's not! It is! It's not! Point eight five? Come on! What's the difference between point eight five and point nine? Point eight Okay. five diameter is sweet bugger all! Anyway, we want A alright? Okay, B nought point eight five B Think about it,is what? Well board E F and H D's you mean! and A alright? I'll have that one that one okay, E Why don't we just mark all the ones that are being used by saying And the problem is text? Good You need grief! a nought point eight five. And then go What are you trying to do? like that. And so, we're gonna use a point five. What are you doing? And we're gonna use a point nine. Well hang on a sec , cos you've gotta get the letters translated, it depends what's in your drill template dunnit? Fucking hell! doing just don't use the whole line! Hang on a sec , look, look, look! All we've gotta do, alright, is that list of holes that are actually on the board alright? Alright. These are the ones the what's it's given us alright? Drill template. So we'll start with twenty we've we want twenty thirty three exists thirty five exists Except thirty three Alright? and thirty five are gonna be combined. Well hang on a sec let's let's just see which ones we need. Well mark them. Four, thirty seven Yeah , hang on a minute. Small one. Lesley! Well you, you be going through and just tick off which just stroke a line through the ones we don't want. ello! Oh right! Okay. Go for it! Hello Phil I'm upstairs. Yeah, that thing next to the . Oh mm mmmm ! Okay. . Okay. Er it's it's probably wasting her time. Trying to . Okay? Yeah. Yeah. Ah, but we we got some gear on site because been working on them so . Erm they'll just have to sort that mess out.. you could bring it round to the corner. Resolution is thirty five, thirty Yeah. seven, four Okay. fifty one. Thanks very much for letting us know . Yep! Bye! Andy! Andrew ! What? Yeah? Right, how you doing? Right a hundred and fifty's not used, and thirty three and thirty five are gonna be combined. It's on here but it's not on here. Right, that's good. Right, so we're using all the others are we? Mm! Twenty thirty three, thirty five, thirty seven, forty, fifty sixty, eighty, one, ten, three,thr , three hundred and fourteen. Excellent! So a hundred and fifty we don't use and, you've already defined that E and F will be the same Yeah. on here? What you'll have to do in here right, because E and F you'll still have to have E and F alright? But quoted as the same size alright? Well E and F on here is er thirty three. Oh right, sorry! That's I me , erm F and H. Make them both point nine five then. Well ho is this is E and F, thirty three, thirty five, how come we got point eight five and point nine? Well cos you got this lot wrong didn't you? You did all the letters wrong. No I didn't! I put all the letters in and you told what Well you took them off that didn't you? and then you told me what to put in on the plated through and stuff! From that ! They don't tally do they? I know. Well only cos F is in there now. Well that's probably where I'm wrong. Hang on. A is twenty. Make Hang on. Go on you can work it out! This is . This is in millimetres and this is in millime no this is in . They're all in . And this is in mill Right. We got it all written down look. Okay, right, so point five is twenty, which you've got right? As long as your drill template tallies with this alright? And you don't miss out any letters that occur except for the L, right? Cos we won't have any L's right? So occur on that, right? Mm mm! So this is what we're actually You ne you need two. this is what actually using on this design? Yep! This is the old one? Yep! Some of the holes are not used at all. Yep! So, are we gon do you get rid of the hole size along with letter. No. Keep, you'll have to keep the letter because that letter will come up alright? So these details So will be put in here, this is what they're actually gonna use. Yeah. I mean, for instance, make erm make F nought point nine five as well . Alright? Yeah, so you have to make them the same. Yeah. Right. Cos so we've actually got F and H on the form. Yeah. On the . Okay? Yeah. Fine. Barbara something innit? Mediterranean tomato that is. Ah! Nearly as good as tomato . ! My boss is on my tail the whole time! Are you serious? Yeah. do you? Bloody hell! Unfortunately! I'm gasping for ! Well he used to remind of when he went in for tea and erm and you'd be lucky! Just a bit. Well Oh I was gonna give it to Ian . I wanted to see him ever! Oh well! Is he going to College tonight? Yeah, but he's not in today so I can't give it to him. Ian who? Oh ! When you said Ian, for some reason I thought . Dunno why!any more does he? Too much of a boy stuff for him obviously! Well wha wha what would I have done with that then? I don't throw anything away. Yeah, it effects me like that when I drink really cold drink. Is it that? Yeah. That's just paper . Oh God! Think, think! Barbara Windsor! Oh what the hell's her surname? Er ain't you got a have you got a general file? Yeah, but . Your right. Oh he won't be in school will he? It's half term. Is it? Yeah. How come I saw a school bus this morning in half term? . Don't see why I should bloody er bloody ! .Christ! Have you got the old tea mates? Oh yeah! A lot at the front sheet didn't we? I saw them this morning. Ah! No, is this your duty counsellor then? I'll have her name won't I? Oh no. Yeah. I'll have her name on here won't I? You got the signing of . I've got it. Yahhh Could even be him you know. Ee ee Barbara , brilliant! Even got a telephone number on. Excrement! Well it hasn't got her address? Yeah but the , she's in the phone book. Ah fair enough. Does that mean the er Barbara . That's it! I know it. I'll know the address cos old law don't do thirty five a week. in er Where's there's a will there's a way, hey? Gotta post it? No. Who's is this? All this is scrap innit? Bar bar ra . , that's it! I'm sure. Who? , yeah that's it! Barbara , ? Yeah. I thought you said I was wrong. You're beating us I was right. at college. You really are! Is it spelt like that? Two r's, two t's. Well I was close! Ah, that's pretty , I'll send off . How do you know her then? I've missed the last post haven't I? Half three but But you'd be better of posting it at a post box when you go cos they pick them up. Post box is just outside here on the er Come out and go these go right just down there is a postbox on the left hand side. Just past What off-site? Yeah. And they pick up about five o'clock. Well there's various post boxes on the way home. Bless you! Mark! Mark, don't sneeze any more! Alright? So is better er tested by girls? They give us more work. Yeah I bet! I'll have a word with him. Don't forget push him to . Yeah. have a wank isn't he? Sure!. Cheers Ron! That it's been taken away. Yep! Therefore, on the Web it says, completed! Yep! The er people that pay the bills say oh well that's no good to us! What is the use of having this wonderful Well I Web system Well when they don't fucking look at it! It's supposed to be Well how do they know? for everybody on site. Precisely! The whole system is But they're a , they're a law smooth running. unto themself! They still want a paper system! They still want me to send paper work to say it. Which we do all that anyway, always do. They're fucking useless! No! Wha what happens if the good come from the store? You don't have to do any paper work do we? I do! What's that for? What's Tough! that for? Circuit boards and tough! No, you get paperwork from there. Yeah but I know! surely that system of paperwork shuffling is is gonna come to end with this. Well it bloody should do! Is it because well the whe whe when they the good they come from internal store Yeah. they that are sent over or what? Oh I dunno! I will just fill out what she wants me to do. They'll probably end up paying twice for it. Because I recko , I reckon they must of been paid for that because Maury hasn't been phoning up and saying oh you haven't paid it! They've obviously ! Yeah. She usually pho phones you up about a month afterwards, you know there is a sort of a problem. I'm pretty sure we must have paid it cos I'm sure she would have phoned us. Cos it's got my name on there. She'd know it was me who got it. Well it's not one of these weirdos! . What? You wanna do it like this one though. Yes. Mm, fucking right! Yeah, you're telling me! But , you said you only wanted four lines! Yeah I know but if I have, say if I have six lines Yeah, well you then just go and change them for that one drawing! You can't see with the th the colour,a better colour. Like black or Ah! No, transparent's better innit? Yeah. You sure your right? I'm sure you got some That's okay, they're all pins. No, not pins, erm veers and veers aren't a problem. You can check with the governor! Small boy! Small boy says it's okay. Ah! Oh God! Fucking move them to those! Ah,lol lol lol lol Oh ! Problems, problems, problems! Oh er! Right where are they? Okay. Why don't you do a Mark . Here to here, forget it! Now, if I click on there and see it Delete it you've got now, but forget it. We're not worried about that. If I erase it I lose the veer Ah, cos there's an extra vire there is there? Yeah. But it stops short and the other one overlaps it. Ah, leave it then. Yeah, I mean it's silly things really. Yeah, leave it. Undo. I don't know why erm We should of done these before we erm Out of the book . Yeah, but leave it. That's cos you had a sort of go at it. Yeah, if there's another re-work we'll sort these out to re-wire. Tha that's why I'm a bit concerned about messing around s straightening and that sort of thing, cos I'm sure I've had this problem before I'm sure that it reduces a lot of er Yeah, but you've still gotta do it. You still gotta move stuff around ain't you? Yeah, well what I do is I delete it Tidy it up. Yeah. and then I draw back in. Cos afterwards Yeah, but then if you run this your ri Yeah but , I think if you straighten lines and mess around with them too much it leaves little bits in underneath the other one. Yeah but there's not a lot of difference in the amount of time is there? By the time you've you've moved them all rather than drawing them all in again then you run the con activity and swop back. Cos you're gonna have to run con activity anyway. Well it's just down here with the plate And another thing is to is to to run con activity before you output the plot. Yeah. But a little short thing like that isn't gonna hurt is it? No. Leave that. Right. Okay. Er, what else is there? There is , that's the er crystal. Yep! That's good! That's right. Which had been forced. Yep. I'll just show you what was on there before. See they're not fully connected. No. Move back. Right, okay, let's have a look. It looks okay. Better colour, alright? Er, so which one shall we . Yeah. dunnit? I can't see anything wrong with it to be honest. Signal feed back is non-reflectives. Is it because this package has been messed around with? And that thing should be a a bra , a main No. pin? No? Right! Interesting! Right, I'll show you this. Hang on sec , I'll just look in Right, it's here right not fully connected right? Now Yeah. the problem here is between this point here right? Which is one of them, and I'll go over there, this is one of them. So the thing is And there. Yep. There right? And There. there. So it's between it's just on that bit there? Yeah, and also this S this bit here, which which I was Signal being traced, three nine four thousand. That blue trace there and this blue trace here it says there's a problem stubbing it. If you mark it, delete it and re-draw Yeah. there's not another one underneath. So I dunno why it's causing a problem really. Stubs in signal. It's not a trace, that those co- ordinates it's Bib bib Sorry, can I just interrupt? Mark darling, have you Barbara's address in Felixstowe? I was looking for the same thing yesterday ! Were you? Yeah. Cos I er you know she sent a thing, well I you know you sent the thing with the address and I Yeah. well I lost it! Okay. I had to get si , see I was gonna give it to you. Yeah, well I didn't go to She we I didn't go to thing, I weren't in. I was away. Yeah, ah well no, I couldn't find you and erm Mick said you were on leave so I had to send it, and I didn't have the address so I had to go and ge , see George. Can you hang on a minute, Bedge? Yeah. It's in my briefcase. Alright then. You'll have to be quick! What's the Walkman! What's all this bloody Walkman business? All that, ay? Well it's just a pose really innit? Oh I see! Now erm ol lol lol where are we? No it's not a Henry the Fifth! You doing English? I've got two of them, no. I have got it. I have got it. Oh! Should be able to remember it, it's erm Barbara I've got it somewhere but and it's erm yeah , haven't got a postcode though. I'm sure it'll get there. I might be going swimming at lunchtime today so I could probably run up there or put it in the post if I go. Alright mate. Oh yes, but I mean I've finished That's the trouble really innit? Yeah, that's a problem innit? I keep telling the other one than that. No, apparently yo , racialism is the worst part! Well yeah! Ta , talking to other people who've done the course. Yeah, but I'm finding this I'm doing this patterns thing and it's all about transformations and that, and I, and there's so much gobbledegook with it that I'm I'm ge I'm getting lost my mind is getting lost in the gobbledegook Cos I know what Have you watched the programme? Watched the programme? I ha , I missed it , I missed it! I missed it Sunday. Saturday and Sunday. It's good! Did you video it? Yeah. Oh I'll look at the video if you taped it. As long as you can er it back. Put it back. Yeah. Cos what I'm doing, I put them on a series and keeping them for revision. Yeah, well that's what I was planning to do but I was o Oh. I've go , I was away in Ashford Saturday, Sunday, and Monday. It's this Saturday. No. This is it, I've gotta You can borrow it as long as you promise to bring it back. Oh well if you let me have it this week I'll let you have it back at the weekend. Yeah, I'll bring it in tomorrow. Okay, right. I better take the tab out the video otherwise he'll erase it! Not that I don't trust him or anything! I think what it is Yeah. I don't think, when you draw this trace perhaps it went just over the pin and didn't click it down. Ah, but when it's actually done it'll be connected won't it? Yeah. . Aha. I'd like to get this out the way really cos then I can get on to something else. Something Yeah well the mega stream is flying upwards. Oh we're on that now are we? Yeah. I thought it was the tester yesterday. Tester? Yeah. What the tester? Yeah. No, forget that! Oh God ! Wish you boys would make your minds up! One minute it's one thing, and then it's another! It's not my fault! It's er erm change of priorities. Did he go to tutorial last night. No. Oh my God! You not go tutorial! No. Oh, bad boy! They had er he forgot to video the programmes, so he's gotta borrow my video. And he didn't have the address either he's lost his sheet ! You call your report files the same as me. Rep Oh, I call it I call mine. Con No. I call it Co ,Con yeah. Con Sta, and Rep Yeah. Yeah, but why do you want to see the the T V programme, it's useless! No, it's not. It's very good actually! Oh, cracks me up, cos of it doesn't Yeah. it doesn't erm develop if you like, it always stays the same. So they show all these really old videos and these guys Yeah, that's right. are walking round with flared trousers and things! Brilliant! This guy, his flares must of been sort of No, no yo yo i isn't it funny when I thought it is a fault, one of them discarded the right? And they mapped it in Summer School Yo you remember it? Yeah. Yeah. We saw him in he's one of the again, he's ju er, he sort of he act big. You know, in the Summer school he normally give you some sort of lecture anything No! and say what hi , you got er , I got a bit er, play a game now. And he's Yeah. he's quite a because Quite old, yeah. er, he said because of er the programme being how he used, you see his funny long hair!! Yeah, a tie you could make a suit out of! And I've got this bloody window stuck ! What? Ah go Gone off the top ! Well just click on the on pop-up so you get a a new a new window. I can't. Only in er Bullmaster one. Oh, you shoved it up sc , oh! I can't get into the banner to move it! Well put er, hit fault. Default. What do you mean? What are you talking about? What do I wanna do fault for? Shut up! Oh no don't hit the middle fucking bollock Too late! Mark ! Oh it's brilliant innit! That ought to do it! That's alright, just do a control C. Yeah, just do a control C,! No I wanted a There you go. We we'll laugh ! Fucking hell ! Wanted to do a That's brilliant! Exactly the same problem again! Don't ever Oh God! Too late! Mark, you should say what you're going to do before you do it! I got no S S T talk today? No. Ain't those batteries run out yet Mark? Well I se No. see they're still working. Yeah, just about. What you got round your neck for then? Just a poser Well when he pisses off I can put the radio on can't I! You're just a poser ay Mark? Sorry? Put your radio on. Keeps turning it on when you see it now. Well I can't hear what he's saying then can I? Well you can't fucking hear anyhow! You still hit the fucker when he says don't! No, he says it too late! Should always say it like at least half a second earlier. There's loads more now, look at this lot! Yeah I know. They're all the with er Eric. Oh I got rid of that one. Doo doo The V back one right? Yeah, but they're they're not really a problem are they? Because this one As long as it , as long as it goes in Yeah. onto that thing. Yeah, but you really should I mean A D characters not traced right? You really should check those. Oh I have checked them. But I was, I just bought you down here just to have a look. Oh right. Erm I was . which report bar's that the Con one? I just ran Con again and to add the new bar to see if that be back one disappears. Hang on a minute! Er type the or moor the er con You will see more. Cos it o , there's erm a set up safe I didn't see eighty four before. There's a set up that checks a certain amount of areas and then blanks it otherwise you could be sitting there for hours waiting for a new Con activity so you just chew them off bit by bit. Right? Oh, so that isn't all the problems then? No. Ah! So once you've chewed those you should run it again? Yeah. Oh I didn't realise that! We should run it again anyway! Ah! So,you gotta run it again haven't you? Yeah. Well I haven't had that problem before though. Cos you've never run it again have you ? No, I do. No, I do, I do normally I I'm pretty careful. The thing I was getting so pissed off cos I've run it about ten times now, cos you keep coming and do alterations! Oh God ! Andy says, oh we've gotta add a new buffer in here so I'm shifting stuff around and adding capacitors and Right. De dum , ay? Ah ee! That's your boss! Listen boy ! I don't fucking know! How the hell am I supposed to know where he is! They're looking for you! It's like asking me where Justin is! ! He's at college today isn't he? Oh that's good news! Supposedly, he should be, yes! That's different! He must love Tuesdays so it means he can have an extra lie in bed! They don't start till nine do they? That's a lay in? Well to be honest well if he he Wanna see something clever? Go on. Little window up here right? The thing about co-ordinates why? You get a little cross in that window Mm. then zoom. Oh isn't that lovely! Look! you can see it's That's lovely! Cos what I tend to do is I do a full board there find out Yeah. where it is and then zoom. Yeah. So you've, actually saving Clicked up on the C N C. Yeah, just turn all items off in that window all full board right? And then, what a so, you get a huge star there you just zoom around about erm Isn't that lovely! and you're there. And can you zoom off? Experience mate! Can you zoom in on that window then? Or is that always full board No it's type window? it's exactly the same window as this, you can edit in it, you can do everything. It should go past the window. So how do you how obviously you do you have the cursor in here when you hit zoom? Yeah. And then you go in there. And then yo , you edit box in there. If you had it in there it would actually zoom that way? Yeah , I mean if you go erm if I go zoom here right? And then, quickly here That does that, right. Right? But then if I go zoom in here Oh I see. and I go into that pad, say Single level three. and you can't see it cos I got all items on but Yeah. you just get a picture of that pad there So the all items on and off are completely separate from the two windows? Yeah. And is on? Yep! Wonderful! I like that! It's just one of those little things you learn when you working on as many bloody years as I've been now! No, I've never used an extra window. Yeah. I ha , I do in Ace but not in Bullmaster It's just a good way to mark it. But ones like this to me, I think they're cos if you Yeah. just lay the trace over the top of the pin it doesn't come out. Yeah. Yes, that should physically click on the pin to get the wire to connect. Oh I do! Do you? Mm mm! And then do a But in terms of, in terms of actual copper, I mean it is actually when the, when the plotter goes over that pad that is gonna be connected. Yeah, but it's still worth checking though. Oh yeah! But I mean they can be left can't they? Yeah. It's pointless trying to output them again. And you hear what say yesterday isn't it? What's that? You just only a piece of little metal. Ha! Sorry? In lunchtime you come in here and say whe where's the board? Oh! I thought it was in, you said oh! Piece of little metal is! Yeah, he's er gotta look out that guy ain't he? Yeah but Well he's stupid over everything! When you skive, you skive you don't let people know you're doing it! But we tell him, long, long time and he just well said well yeah, yeah! That's it. And totally honest. Don't,, I mean what I trying to help him you know the guy he's in work Yeah, I've already looked at that one it's alright Bedge. Yeah, but some people won't take advice will they? Well tha , that was very rude to come fucking , a lot of things and he just say Told him, yeah. If he'd he'd have got I had a go at him the other week using a fucking hire car! He took his car down to the actually ! It was a hire car? I don't mind if he asks you, he says look I'm just gonna go over stores , he took it off fucking site, didn't even know that's where he was going! Yeah, oh I know! Stupid burk had gone on a crane like that Yeah, yeah! tell him to fuck off! He's had it now! Yeah and you're responsible for it. But I've gotta be responsible for it. Yeah. Bastard! He was none too happy! Ha, God ! How can, how many ? I'll be very surprised if . Must be bloody ! Especially if this thing . Yeah, it's If they chop it off as well, I said they fucking blinding you like hell you'd have Well yeah and yeah! I bet he'd speed it up! Cor it's a lot slower when you want another network innit? The old monster! Oh good it's one slade one now. Yeah, Mm. Well no you're well it's, it's a stand alone, but all your files are not Hang on! Hang on! Hang on! What you got? I think that's . I just did that. Oh right. See you also get the bit up there with signals in this don't you? don't give a shit! Mm. And window. Oh it's lovely dovely They're all the pins and the veers that it goes through. Yeah. All the pins. No veers. Ah ! Ooh! Oh ho ho the whole lot ! Well we have got Take this backwards ! erm You can't . He said all about four days left to get this tested then up and running. Yeah, Frank knows it's gonna slip. It might, I've gotta Erm So that I'm actually full time after today. He can't of done! So get me to do it, it's only Yeah. gonna be me and Paul fixing all the design and that on it Yeah, he says . and you Right. hopefully. You'll be giving us It's gotta have a shelf so it'll be a whole drawer won't it? You done all the converting? Yeah I mean we did the fourth but I haven't done the ball to be honest on this one. I started reading up on it. You know I've done all the schematic components. Oh like getting thirty four bars to a hundred. And how do they do it? There shouldn't be that, there shouldn't be that big a board really should it? Well you get Yeah, but the trips he's using are big. Is it on his own or what? Should be something like that type of board. Well I hope it's . No, well no we're not using the LCC's, using dips. What are they, forties? Forties and thirty twos, I think. Well there's only a what One of them's and all. Yeah, but you've got all your microcircuitry on there. We're gonna have a R S fifty two, erm H D L C Ah course, that's not showing is it? That's right. So you got those Oh it'll be a double euro then. At least. I've got a box for a double euro card. Don't wanna tell them they're se , they're gonna smoke. Get on doing work will you? Erm I've gotta wait for Andy, I dunno what the fucking hell he's done! It should be documented. Cos if you got in by bus this morning ain't he? Well . I should do that. And it keep saying and it keeps saying there's a what erm slabs of concrete to be defined. Oh! Oh! Every single thing will be . That's not perfect though! That one's coming back already. No! You knock it off by, what was it? Er was is it? You're supposed to curl it up in a, in a erm in a brush when you blow dry it you know. Keep the perm in there. I'll give you a blow job! Did you ever see me when I had mine permed? What, yours? You never fucking You! did! You never had it in a fucking You remember when I had a perm don't you? Oh yeah, you looked a right tart! I looked a cunt I remember that ! I looked a complete asshole ! he had a fucking perm! You didn't see me then? It was like it wasn't as long as Bedgeys but it was really tight and really you know? Cos his is like I dunno Sweep How his is How his is Sweep! How long ago? But mine How long ago? Oh erm before I was married. About five years ago. Five, six years ago. God I don't believe it! Bloody was as well! I bet you looked a lovely boy! Of course, you haven't got enough hair to perm you know ! That's what I say! No, it was, it was quite long. You must admit , my hair is the worst,fa falling out since! No, got quite, quite a nice perm. It's thickened it up at the front innit? You think he's joking! I got a photograph, I'll see if I can find it, bring it in. Yeah. I got a perm. Yeah, well you've had a perm ain't you Yun? Yeah! No! I just It's like It is! You've had a perm? It is! A China man with a perm ! That used to be quite a thing actually. Well it wear tomorrow, you know they have. I haven't, no! Oh Nigel used to have a perm didn't he? Who's that? Nigel . Did he? Yeah. When I first met him it was really curly you know, and I Bu just thought it was his natural hair but Yeah but my my my perm is not the really the curl, like hi his was set nicely. Not like what bloody curly all hair! People must er think you're a pratt! I did! No, not Bloody Chine China men always have straight hair don't they? No,i it's not really what curly perm, is just like the er er a wave perm in it. Oh wave, yeah. Ah lovely! was saying. Have you Well photograph of it? Yes, I have tha , the really horrible one? That's true! Brilliant! The wedding photo At least mine's natural! Ha! Ish The wedding one a what, you know. The two mark co-ordinate windows. Yeah, one for one end, one for the other. Yeah what I do is, I have specified so I If I suspe the numbers are quite close I put one in there have that, and I just do reverse around and you Yeah. can see the other one might rub off. Do you know why I back to Norman ? Yes. Norman? Won't be much. Won't be now , he's a Londoner he's bound to have had one! You must have a ! Yeah, but I won't say! What's the problem? You have to hit it again. Well to be honest I got too many bloody windows up there! I got Ace up there now you know. So you aught to be careful! Alright. Why? Too many windows, it'll crash! Well that's alright. Well you can open There it is. It's that one and it's that one colour. Well I'm sure it'll be alright Bedge . It'll be alright on the night. Fucking airline now! Well that's alright innit? Hope it's not fucking connected Well I ra work ! If you go on a st If you go on a stat it says no airlines! How do you account for that? What? You look at stat which I just ran this morning right? My file called stat it says zero airlines. Don't beli Did you just delete that? No. No I didn't fucking touch it ! You didn't? Well what's that? No, oh. Have you put a different file name in? Nope! Just do more stat and it'll say zero. Total length of airline, zero. So I sa , I took it that that was it. Now more the one you just did. I just did. No, it couldn't be. You ju erase it, it won't allow you to over , overwrite it. Got to take them out the root. See so that's why you should check the con activity you see. Ah! You always didn't I they tell you? I do, that's why, I always do. I do stat, con and rep after I've done D L C. No I wasn't about to go down and do the bizz Tell him off! Bedge, come on, tell him off! You've gotta be able to run a little tidy up programme, we should just get rid of all these stubs and things! It's like, tell us what's in the software. Er Come on Bedge! So you're tell him off! Good job we ran this innit? Yeah, if it'll . Now what was the file you called when you ran sa when you ran stat I called it stat I'm sure I did. No. Put it in the box. In there. Hang on. Kick the mother fucker! No, woh! No, hang on! Hang on a sec ! I just wanna see if it's been erased since we've been digging around. Probably has you see. Right, okay. Point select. Forwards er No airline! Why don't you run with airlines on all the time? Well I've got confused! Well if i if it comes up and tells me there's no airlines there, then I can assume that there's no airlines! That's right! It didn't! It said there was zero air , that means th there's none there. What do you mean none there? Well there's one there now cos we just connected it. If you a, right I reckon what's happened, you've done a delete on a signal at some point right? And it hasn't been pulled up on the airline? No, you've when you do a delete erm if you do con ex signal, if you have that on signal it deletes the whole signal, airlines and all. I always have it on sig as much as poss . It defaults the sig That's, that's usually what happens. Anyway that doesn't solve the problem now anyway! Oh my God! So we gotta do the bloody thing again anyway! Yeah. Do you want me to put this one in or do you want the other one to go in? I wasn't told! ! Well I I mean I was, I was relying on the, on the . It's, erm, didn't you do these things like erm join the numbers up when you were a kiddy Yeah. You know, in these little books? It's just like that. That says that said to me zero airline so I thought ah great, it's all connected! You know? Well the con activity test told you it wasn't! Well I hadn't got through that had I? I would have discovered once I'd been through it all. Good Lord! Ooh no! Ooh no! That one's get it like that red well that number's moved. Yeah. It goes blue, green, blue, green, blue That's a bit of alive. Hang on! Blue, blue, green Boo ber ber ber ber ber . Right, that's green. Blue. We bring that one red down there. Doo doo . Move these around. We can go no we can't cos of that. This'll be a good one! Do you want to do it? Yeah, I can do it. ? Ow I mean we might as well pitch it now. Pitch those plots. Hang on a sec ! Wha what's happening here? That can come right down here and then blue underneath. Pull that one down. Well I just wondered why it goes there, in It could go down one couldn't it? It goes hold that. Well it's as broad as it's long really. Mm. That just says a bit. Mm, no. It just means changing it. This is the same thing though? Yeah. A bit devious isn't he? One things gone down there. Well Mark did it didn't he! Well the problem is, is that you don't like teeing off do you? Don't like teeing off signals. It's gotta be Yeah, you could of done come off at a pin. So Yeah but you could of come across Well I couldn't from there I remember working on that one and I did it because all this lot was a ,. I just pulled it up from that bottom. Probably this again. Oh but you see It's alright, look I mean that one Hang on! Yeah, but I mean that one you could of shifted this lot put some kinks in this one a bit, right? Moved all that lot up. Yeah but I don't like putting kinks in! You could of gone round with the kinks It's horrible! The kinks Well yeah but it's better tha , I mean that's that's like a bus signal and that's like a ser ,this one that's going round. Is that now? That straight? What you doing? That straight? What's straight? That light. Which one? That one. That one isn't. I know that one isn't! That it's an zoom delete it. This is difficult really. They're gone now. Look! Look at that! Alright! Don't fuck about! Oh no Mrs! Oh No! Gotta go! No. It's gotta go! No. You don't think ahead that's the trouble! I do! You're a cunt Bedge! Patronising bastard! You gotta think head! I think head everyday! You've left a C print on there. Hang on! You've left a It's alright! C pri I'm getting the poxy bloody grid! I why do I have to work with that grid? Cos you can see what you're doing then. Oh! No, it's all naughty and I find the horrible! if you have the grid on you don't miss airlines. I believe you! There's a segment there left! You just make sure What the hell did that jump across there for? There's a fucking segment on there! I told you there's a bloody segment, and does he listen? No! He well he never listens He just goes and clicks the bloody buttons! he never listens to you anyway Bedge ! Look! If the Ah it's still a bloody segment innit? my God! That's awful isn't it? Ah! And look at that! Look at these D L C's you put in there look! That's gone, right! Let's just do board delete that'll probably help won't it? Okay, so I'm coming from here You delete up to there! What's that? Oh it's the big airlines. Yeah, yeah, that's the one yeah, right. Ah like a bloody I'll leave you at it! I'm glad to hear it! God! Run you over! I'll get it sorted and I will do it again! Cor, I dunno ! Look Dave, look! Clever boy! Charge up my batteries cos of my aeroplanes. Oh you're into Got my charger. aeroplanes are you? I'm into model aeroplanes, yes. Oh dear! Well , not recently but I'm hoping to get back to it. When I er when I get the time. Yes, yes. I'll have to From the Hollies take . the Hollies Yeah. Well the trouble is they're so small now aren't they? Yeah. Because they restricted the area so much if you got a big plane that like, to by pass now. It's all gone again now. There was one Don't have a lot of time to think,You know ! there was one bloke over in erm tha you know, with a man la , that I used to work with and he, he used to fly from Hollies , and he lost his plane one day and fle , flew out of range and er he he spent weeks looking for it! Couldn't find! Because th the the sort of corn and barley would, was er was almost ready for Bloody! er harvesting, and he was frightened that he was getting a bit panicky cos if, you know, frightened a combine had had run over it. So But he went and hired and plane from Richmond Airport Oh God! Must of And th cost him a fortune! this guy flew him round and he saw it! He spotted it from there and he wen , went and got it. Probably cost him twice the amount! To hire a plane than the thing's worth! Well yeah! I have heard cases of erm planes being lost in in er crops chu chur churned up! Mm. Farmers aren't happy ! No I know. But there's a couple of guys in another division over there that they were quite keen on er aircraft and they spent weeks building these bloody things and then er, and experienced flyer he'd taken over to the other, other side of the estate when he had a bit of runway over there Aha. and fly them, and they usually flew for about ten seconds and he smashed it! And they came back for another fortnight of re-building ! He said I saw too much! Where's that bloody kettle? Two weeks after he'd said Haven't we ten second flight! Hasn't Yunny put the kettle on yet? He's just gone. He's just gone What a to get it. what a lazy bastard! I'll bloody steal his notes Yeah, when I first I used to fly, actually screen flying. Mm. Tremendous you know! I had this plane a a low four nine engine and I was only a kid. I bought it in village in Mark's Wood I used to take it up the runway and Yeah. took off and I was circle ground, it was quite a windy day then this stood there with me , had no control over the thing, like! And it er I think I think the engine cut at about Well Norm is stepping outside. Is he? Oh! Is he? Yeah. Ooh, my God ! I'm a man myself, ha? But er, is he though? Erm yeah er e , I couldn't hit, you know, just went outside and er what was this? Er, I went out the next day to go to er th yeah that was a Sunday I lost it. And before I went to school on the Monday, drove back down the marsh and went in this forest trying to find it. And we went round this estate can't remember where it was and erm thought knock on the doors and se , ask people had seen it and then later in the day this woman phoned up and said she saw a couple of kids walk down the road with it and sort of ca , called them over and said oh I heard that his, his . So I got it back. That was lucky! And it wasn't broken! I was Yeah? absolutely flabbergasted! That was a bit lucky! Could of been a gonner there! Could of been indeed. Drink? Well drop one, they're still looking. They're still looking. No, I I got plenty of time, I'm not in a hurry. Cos I I got plenty of time. Still looking. Is there still the news about carrying here? Oh I could do. I I I I think that's one of the options that I could sort of er I could still be the li , cleaner over here. If I ain't got a job by June I could still be here cleaning. You gotta take a pay cut then? Oh yeah well er well wo I'd take a pay cut because erm well I'd have to take a pay cut anyway, but the thing is though, with my pension with my pension from day one I ain't gonna be too bad off anyway. If I can take home a hundred and twenty quid well with my seventy pound a week pension two hundred quid. So I ain't gonna be too bad off anyway. I mean, sort of er you know Well, it sounds alright. Probably make a bit more hours, and course there might be er a a couple of hours a night, it'll probably be I reckon it'll probably from five to about er seven. The proper hours. And thing I suppose. Well the thing is, I don't think they're gonna put stran , they're not gonna put a stranger over here. Who don't know the job. Well, it's a bit risky for security as well isn't it? Well yeah! They're not gonna put, they're not gonna put a stranger over here are they? Really? I mean they're gonna you know? I mean, if I sort of just stay for a, for a while but er I've still keep looking for work looking for a job cos I do wanna get away from B T. The sooner I get away the better! But I'm not in a hurry at the moment. So I can't go anywhere anyway. I wanna erm hopefully er hopefully I can get myself a car once I get the money. Buy one. Weren't gonna splash it all out you know? All at once? No I wouldn't splash it all out but I'd get quite a bit cos of the twenty years. I've still got my, er get a car for about a couple of grand. Get a second hand car for a couple of grand and er I'll still have a little bit. We might pay some of the mortgage off and er er, if there's any you know, we sort of keep some in there. Keep some in the Yeah. building society. At least, at least if I had another job you see and er well I'm taking home two hundred odd two hundred pound a week. Well I worked out a hundred and twenty here and seventy pound pension. I wouldn't need to touch that money. That'd still be erm that'd still be in the er still be in the building society could be making me money. Yeah. I mean er You get some er the old interest There's the can't you? Well especially if you put it in your high interest. Yeah. Which once I've wo , which I will. The trouble is with high interest account you can't get the money out very quickly can you? Ah? You can't get the money out very quickly. Just give them plenty of notice like er a month's notice to get the money out. Oh well, yeah. That er So if you need it in a hurry it can be a problem. Yeah. Well we could have it in a ordinary account it's sa , still sort of er . You know? Just report or not. I might be able to some in er, in the ordinary account and some in the high interest account. Yeah. You could do that can't you? Oh yeah, split it up as you like! Oh! Oh yeah, but er but I'm not in a hurry anyway. I've got plenty of time. John! Right. Your tea cup got . How dare you ! Phone! Okay, boy Oy, slaphead! Me? Yeah, the chap from Arkworth Generation for you. Excellent! I'm not sure this machine the actual driver board can I know. Yeah. Because I've been trying to swop between that one and that one. In that we see the one coloured drive right? Yeah. We can re resist the and run from to that copy. When Bedge got it in I say look le I I wanna swop it see what happen. And I took, he swop it he he wouldn't three sixty two. No. I'm not sure, is it the driver that's the problem or not? So you may have to ask Norman if it'll now work. I think we will blame the or th all got in, got in. We will have some money left behind not a lot. Cos the machines in my old office all of them, all the five and a quarters agree both types. And the three and a halfs agreed with seven twenties. Yeah. Yeah! I mean this one can I mean what is what's the point in a, in a drive that'll rig one point two but not three sixty? Useless! And erm the one I got, in there can rig well three sixty K and one point two meg, no problem! As soon as I charge straight into here, what happen with it? I think it's something to with the, with the actual er driver board. Yeah. And you get all set one wha erm setting. You gonna have, you can't have a few. So we may have a, quite another a board or what? I don't know. They will let you know. They'll have to! If I could get my . Then I could have that machine and Justy can have mine. One. What I'm trying to say is that yo ,i now you gotta order another to , forty six. How do I know what's having ? Who's getting the other one then? I dunno. Mm. I have a lot of feeling right? That's it's . When these boys has come along and Colin would he look at John and what do boys say? Well he can't have yours cos he's not doing compiling that No. needs fast processing time. Tony is the one who will definitely jump up and fucking , but I tell him to fuck off! But Colin I mean Frank said to you you can have Yeah. cos you need it for your work! Yeah, but Frank did tell me to keep it, keep quiet! Don't make any don't make war! I don't know it, so I keep quiet. Don't make Yeah but as soon as he walks in here he'll go, ah new machine! Yeah. How's that then? Well you'll have to convince that it's, it's just a three eight six. Cor God! That amazes me why people, it's like a status symbol they have to have the best bloody machine! Well there's no point! But, I have Bedgey look to be honest right he do more compiling than me. If he want the forty six , I mean the forty six I give you this. And he, and he say ah no, but it's alright I got my . But, he said if if Franky order another one he say, I shall have a forty six. Be , originally they order two forty sixes one for Colin and one for Andy. Mm. But when the money tight and they, they can't get the bloody thing! Yeah, well you haven't got it yet anyway have you so Well, I will, I will get it and all the will come in here and we'll hide it or whereby no no, no one will fucking see it! And go, I set it up all working and there's fuck oh ho! It is isn't it? Oh what a pity! Can you stick in that box? But the thing is, they look so different. Don't they? And like Ian's four eight sixes, it's so different to one of those it's not like you can get away with it. Completely different, re-designed box and everything. You still using that monitor? No. Wo , have a look at this monitor? Ay? Come here, it's your monitor, everything. So I can have that monitor with that machine, ha? Yeah, you, you can get everything. Oh right. But we asked erm Colin,di did he want a monitor? And he say no! Mm. Th , the super V G A is better than the, just the V G A. They can give you twe , two hundred two hundred and er, fifty six colour. So Is this V G A or E G A? That's a Philips, a V G A. Is it? It's a normal, it's like your one, it's normal V G A. Oh! Sixteen colour. If you open tha ,ma my window, the picture is compared with the wha you put in there . Oh yeah. So I don't know what is going on! So I'm not over exciting . A Bloody politics place ! Well you got a valid reason for having a fast machine. Right! I better get the out then. And my bloody ! Ow! Well, and I put an order in to buying erm two more of these five and a quarter inch. It'll rebo Mm? That will,wi tha tha will rebo soft. Yeah, but I think th , probably the thing with number Then the driver innit? Well if it can't, it can't. Yeah well there's a problem with that because they might be on different project number mighten they? Yeah but doesn't matter! In this group, doesn't matter. In other group, maybe. Mm. In this group ,. So if you want a se see er er a normal reception you want some some level if you want what? One. If you wanna thick one want a monitor this way,, but not a lot. So you don't wanna put all that in. But it does or some order. But whereas anyone order from this company say well what do you want? Do you want a big one or a small one? If you want a huge order oh you can look for your own. When Len sent them a five pound order, or ten pound Mm. you can leave that . Th there is a if there is work in our group, no problem! As soon as we've been , all been We'll have to write that one with a indelible pen. Yes. You only get on go at it as well. So that is I dunno, you get it off with spirit I suppose. Maybe, I think you can get erm erm in, what they done on Norman's they're using a tape. A tape? Oh that's messy! Er well if you're gonna draw the line I mean I mean it's bloody we know what who's in, who's out. Yeah. Yeah, have a chat with Norman. Okay. The only problem is, I dunno if there's a mistake on this but this modem box right? Is one six one and this is it's ha! You're hoping! Yeah. It's not going into anything is it? No, it isn't, it's not got a socket or anything right? It'll have Norm! Yeah. it'll have four How do you change Look likes the actual box is one six one, this is one sixty right? Yeah. Cos I put erm So that's gonna be a bit small, but a dimension in there. we're not gonna have these connectors on so we all can do whatever size we want really can't we? Yeah. Talk to me! Cli ,wha what's the depth? The depth is erm six four one. four one. So how big's that? That will take us is it clear up Oh right! to there, to here. Erm Yeah, okay. Well what we can do No, what we'll do first ride is put in a connector, you know those connectors? Yeah. That these fellers are on? Yeah. You can get them with long pins each si have them standing up the board and then you have another board, a board with a so you can That's what I was saying! cut the pillars those there. Perhaps, yeah we might find that by the time we got to might not be able to get it all on. Cos that is like a sixth of the area isn't it? What we'll do alright? Mhm. I reckon . If we erm I'll get a if I got time today. Alright? Yeah, so basically Then, yeah, we'll just try and get through today. Start , see what the actually gonna do. Yeah, like , yeah? I mean all the chips will fit, but you gotta . Am I that boring Frank? I didn't Yeah ! say anything you know! No, not half! I didn't. But I di , I didn't realise that I thought you were actually. How old did you think I am? What an insult! Erm He's not that old are you? No, no . I suppose about be erm fifty nine. No, no no no, I'm . Erm, so you had to have didn't you? Erm, I , yes. Yeah,yo , we well we won't do that . Erm, I probably do all that but I don't . services. Now we've got this year, certainly it will succeed in years and pay, pay the interest off, that will re result in a any more money your own debt. The S S A will be controlled as it is at present. I see us put into on that sort of thing. What we we got a result over that. Interest rates will go up. In the past when they've gone up, under the conservatives, we welcomed that thus slashing fourteen per cent,money out of the market and as they said, two million pounds against eight hundred thousand. That is going to change, of course. As money goes up, er, you can you can negotiate figures Interest. Well, then that was at a higher level than at present, but we're not going to take on at ten per cent interest. That's five or six per cent on the debt . So you're gonna pay more for that. The whole thing, reminds me a little bit of each when I had to get my thousand pounds. You're lucky you got one. It says on it, you can pay two hundred pounds, or over three years, or you can pay ten pounds. Who decided, Mr Chairman, to pay the ten pounds, you were lucky really, you have to pay the two hundred pounds, that'll be the Yeah, well, thank you Chairman, I I I'm erm er, I must admit, I'm I I am think long and and and er think deep really, about er, you know, changes such as this, but I I also er, er have to run my own businesses, and er, I just er, I think we have experienced a water-shed, it's coincided to some extent with the change of administration and then during the nineteen eighties, we had to a boom in this county, we had the the opportunity and I never er ever er, been against that principle, of er, of er, using our actual receipts we have hidden reserves, we we talked about the reserves of twenty nine million pounds here, for the er, erm, we have er er, assets of twenty nine million, in an earlier paper. And then we all know, that that that er er considerable assets there, which are there, and and and we're we're we're very grateful for them, we are in a very fortunate position. But, we have interest rates at the lowest rate they've been, well, in my memory, really, in terms of er er my time in business, and they may even go down a further one per cent. Er, and that coincides as well, with er, unfortunate situation, where we've erm, we're still in the in the recession. I heard that that er er er parts of the rest of the U K property prices have risen over the last year, er but ours have actually not risen at all. In fact, they've gone down. Lincolnshire and Humberside, and so er er I've no doubt in my mind that there will be opportunities available to us, er through further capital receipts, in the foreseeable future. But those won't, er if we were to take cashing those in now, it would be probably taking half of what we might get for them in the future, and from a business proposition, there is a time, when even if you have money in the bank, there are times, when it would be very advantageous to take long term interest rates, at low interest rates, and I think er er this is er perhaps the best opportunity that we have. Er, also, we don't forget that er, we, whilst people say to me, er we had a good year on the P S G last year and we've had some good settlements, perhaps over the year, better than average, in the East Midlands, on the P S G. But we have so much catching up to do. We're light years behind some of those areas where the spending has been at a much higher level. So we don't want to be any under any illusions about that, and the same can be applied to the fact that we have made no real provision for nursery education, that we were in trouble over special needs in this county, that was a a requirement to to restore services that were well below the S S A on Social Services, and we really all this er this er, new administration has done, has been brought those up, those services up to what would have been regarded as a quite an unacceptable level with most of the the the authorities in this country. It's been a up, in fact, you've been living off the people, in in in other words. Really, in terms, of providing, and you've been living off capital in that way, and and and I'm not prepared to do that, but I do think there is strong case for borrowing, er, providing it's kept in in that in in er er under control at this time, and borrowing, I may feel that we will be able to be in a much better position to take our capital receipts and use them advantageously in the future. I have no doubt about it that the government are urging us at this moment, er I I am concerned about that, they are urging us by the er approvals to do to go down this road. I I I don't want to go down the road to the same extent that they've done, when they put us into debt by fifty er fifty billion o o o o o o o just on on on one day, but I'm sure that there is a a strong case to look and to pursue the options that are are available to us, and that's what I hope the Treasurer will do, er, and this is all we're approving at the moment, and that an an and to find out just what the, how the land lies, what the best position is, what interest rates that we might be able to get, and over what period and I I I er support this er er er er this expense bud budget. Thank you Mr Chairman. Er, this is basically about fairness and equality. Fairness the people who willingly to cheer now. Er, to expend money on a project over, that is going to last thirty forty years, and expect the people today to pay for it. Erm, when their paying for it, not necessarily with money, but in some cases with their lives, with misery. These are the things that they're having to pay for it with, and the reason being, is the Social Services in this county were a diabolically low level, and people were definitely suffering from it. The people of this county, were suffering from it, through crying, because of the lack of crime prevention work being done by the previous administration, because the money was all going one way. I'd like to ta look round this room. Everybody has homes. How many people of the , how many of you here today, could actually pay for your home out of your income, if you waited until you have sufficient income to pay for your home in its entirety, the bulk of the people in this room, even though there are, yes, some rich farmers, still couldn't afford to have a home. These are the types of things, that you have failed to look at. Central Government is encouraging us to borrow, and I was pleased to hear Councillor on papery actually accept that borrowing under F T C was acceptable. I didn't do anything, I don't know what you are talking about. How ac you're unsure I said, well if governments daft enough to borrow, that's their business, I was Mr Chairman, er the actual words were, S T D, S T C's are a separate thing when we are borrowing on governments behalves. And that was his exact words. So he supports them borrowing, but how many farmers in this country, or in this county don't have a loan. I would think very very few. We are looking for fairness, and that is what we're going to deliver. Perhaps I was saying too much. Councillor Brock is the Vincent Price of our councillors, with his horror stories, Anybody that borrows money for a capital project is in is in the mad-house. He should be in the mad-house, which worries me, because I, to follow the point that councillor Taylor's made. I borrowed a modest amount to buy my house, that I could easily meet within the finances that I'm getting at the moment. And that's all the same that the County Council are going to do. They're going to lend money for long term projects, and the people of Lincolnshire, who benefit through those projects for years to come, will be paying modestly for years to come. That way, we are providing those front line services, that Councillor Taylor picked upon and Councillor Parker mentioned, such as Social Services that had been, that that literally been fleeced by the previous administration to pay for their capital projects. We will put in the front line services, such as Social Services. I hope we will borrow very modestly, it'll be affordable, we're not reckless, we'll be doing what the majority of people in this country do, borrow within their limits for the things that they need for the future such as a home, or a car, something like that. It's nothing to be frightened about, it's not something new, as been stated. Borrowing is, does not re , is not a new thing for us. We we do that in terms of of of capital control for Translink and Computer Services, and it's interesting to note that we don't class as a debt free authority, so what we have is a number of scare stories from Vincent over there, which is irresponsible. This is a sound tool in our management toolbox, and I recommend it. Good job this meeting's being recorded, Mr Chairman. We should have a play-back in four years time. Councillor Thank you, Mr Chairman, it it's certainly very interesting this morning, er listening to the various points that have been put forward by er the new administration. Erm, all speaking with an air of running business, managing finance and er how we haven't managed in the past because this is what, our actual It is really, it's a philosophy, isn't it, over the last how many years, you don't have this philosophy, about being in fear of long term debt in in this authority. I don't think capital not the way the average them that work. Better to be in philosophy than have the facilities which has greatly benefited the charge payers and the people who think right across the board. Right across the board. I I mean, I find it, I find it quite amusing when some of the er labour people their services. I travelled the country well, I've been in other authorities both labour controlled, been in to schools, been in old peoples homes, erm seen their roads, or driven over their roads, and I can assure you, that er in Lincolnshire. I think you know, Lincolnshire has done a dam good job for the people in Lincolnshire whether it in roads, whether it be old peoples homes, or whether it be in schools, whether it be in fire stations, police stations, I admit to where one could say across the board, they could compare, that they could compare, they might compare they might live in one area and work in another. One could go into Cambridgeshire and some of the various levels of development what they have got Cambridgeshire roads, and you know very well that they they don't compare to Lincolnshire roads,County boundary. You go into various parts of the er south west, where their labour control and you look at the state of their buildings, and you think, my God, what on earth have the elected members been doing when you actually see the level of rates that they have set. And then, I mean, the amount of long term capital debts they all got. Erm, it it's a matter of whether you want to spend today and pay later, or whether you want to continue a philosophy is mainly in the majority of Lincolnshire vote, that if you want something, you pay for it. If you haven't got the money, you go without. Now, we are providing above average level of services year on year on, at below average, er er average expenditure. For the simple reason that we have no debt to finance, we have no debts to finance, and if we'd listened to you over the years, on our sur surplus land and property. Selling off the family silver. The times that has come out of your mouths. Selling off the family silver, and look what we're gonna have to do with that year You have criticised those for setting up the various units, and giving them target for. You have criticised those for looking after, Councillor Clark, I didn't talk when you were talking, and I thought you'd want to listen to what I'm saying, because er, I think you could learn a lot. Er, I was hoping you Mr Chairman, I take to a conclusion Mr Chairman, if this for negotiators of these and if you look at th the papers of the budget this year, er because of conservative policies don't improve, you haven't actually inherited about ten million pounds coming in to your budget during the year. Now, you have been spending, since May like water. You have unspend, you have spent, and you actually spent more than we've got in some instances. You make commitments for next year, as as if , money had gonna be no object. You your criticising the the government is not giving you as much grant as you would like. You'll have to remember that the that the er increase from last year, it's an increase, it's not a cut, not talking about cuts. There is no reduction from Central Government from last year to to to from this year, to next year, and you have been totally unrealistic,the two of you, the labour and the liberal parties after May, erm, we've gotta this, we've gotta that. As as if money would just come whenever you open your mouths. You are at last realising the folly of what you set out to do. and as Councillor said. Here we are, in a matter of what eight to nine months of inheriting, a well financed, a well run, an effective, efficient organisation with a reasonable amount of na balances. With a capital investment fund, and yet here you are trying to have to borrow to be able to manage next year. I think it's an absolute disgrace. I think it's a sad day for in Lincolnshire, and you know, if you start as, I think Councillor said, to er, agree with this er proposal today, it is, it will be the first sod and the last hole which you will be digging and it'll be the charged back to Lincolnshire at the end of the day who are happy to on it. Thank you for that. Right, I think er, everyone's had a good say from both sides, and I would like to sum up and put it to the vote. Erm, really its a question of, do we borrow or don't we borrow. That's what we've been asked this morning. It's also being raised by other conservatives, they wouldn't have started from here. And the question I've been asking myself of this, is that erm, where did we start from. When we took control we inherited an unsustainable capital programme. Now that capital programme was at erm, fifty two million, I think it was thereabouts. Which would be formulated in the pre-election year which was for obvious reasons. Would you allow me, please. You know, I've allowed you all to speak, and I do expect the courtesy of I'm I'm sorry Councillor Wyle, I expect the courtesy towards the Chair, and I am now summing up, so please be quiet. What did we inherit, I say we inherited that, and also we have inherited er an S S A to us, that you would have inherited, the conservative, at some ten million short of what we needed. Now I want to refer to that, because this is fact. The increase in the education S S A nationally, by one point eight per cent. Lincolnshire only receive nought point five per cent increase. That was a loss to Lincolnshire County Council, fact, of one point eight million. The area cost adjustment which the er government takes out of the total S S A's of some two hundred million has gone to the south-east, I hope none goes to Westminster, and that has cost us one point three million. In the distribution of care in the community, the money for that, with the S S A. Reduction compared with the amount we received in ninety-three, ninety-four through the special transitional grant, we got a reduction there, two point two million. This fact. It's been mentioned, I think it was Councillor mentioned about the, he was pleased to see that we got two million pound in interest receipts against the eight hundred thousand that was envisaged. But within the S S A, the government expected us to have three point nine million receipts. That is a loss of two million. Also we've been arguing our claim for the sparsity factor, in other words, the national reduction of one hundred and sixty one million in ninety-four, ninety-five compared to ninety-three, ninety-four for the sparsity factor. One point six million. Now whether you like it or not, and you're not in our position, because we er prepared to manage this authority, you would have had that same reduction to find, and I did hear Councillor and he was also referring to capital spend the other day, saying he could have found ten million. I've also heard Councillor er being, er er quoted in the press, as saying that he could find the money for capital schemes. I think one was out at Caister. So that where we're at at this point in time. Now Councillor refers to whether the time was right, and why should we have to borrow. Well as you're aware, our philosophy, our policies are to protect and improve services, and a lot of our services, when we came in with our initiative, we started from a nil base, on some of the provision, and we are not prepared to stand by and see diminution of any of the services, if it is humanly possible. So the decision is whether we borrow to protect those services, that's to the elderly, to the school children, to education and to try and enhance our road system. Er, then this is a decision we have, we want flexibility. The interest rates are low at the present time. The climate is right, and we believe it could be sound financial management in a very difficult situation, it's been referred to, should we borrow. The majority of the County Council's in this country borrow money. Er, I think it was Councillor who referred to er looking at your own household budget. I look at my er occasionally, I borrowed money over my lifetime, and managed to acquire a capital receipt, a property. And most of us do that, and that is the situation that we're in at the present time. And, we're not in doing, not intend telling you at the er, proposals we will put in the budget, but I can give you an assurance at this point in time, that we shall be borrowing money. And the er, detail of that will come out when the proposals are put to the Policy and Resources Committee. So I support er the recommendation for the change in the er, Treasury Management Policy er statement, and I formally move this to be adopted by this Committee. I second that. I second that. Mm. Seconded. All those in favour of that, please show thank you. One at the back there, would you count, please. Eight, Chair And against. Six. Seven. Would would you please register that the er, conservatives vote against it. Do do all the conservatives agree with that statement. Agree. Thank you. Thank you. Er, that is carried. didn't have to answer the questions I'm sorry, I'm moving on to the next paper. questions I'm sorry, that paper is finished with. We're moving on to the next paper. The next er, paper. I have to move that under section one hundred A brackets four, the Local Government Act nineteen seventy-two. The public be excluded from the meeting for the following items on the grounds that they involve the likely disclosure of exempt information as defined in paragraphs eight and one of part one of schedule four A of the I so move er, paper G, and I believe we've got,oh, I'm sorry, Morris . Thank you, Chair. This paper that set out the excuse me, the paper set out the details of the I T capital code goes on to ninety-four, five. It's the result of a big process by individual departments, erm, it is set out on the basis of departments priorities. It is shown in the priority all round the department,. The paper's presented in two parts. The first one is the standard format we use on the getting the information through . The second part, I thought might be useful to members in explaining in more detail what each of the schemes were about. The general customer paper is to build on the information structures that we've got, and to actually make the information more available internally and externally to the authority, and also to make use of new technology wherever that is possible. Erm, that's all I want to actually say in view of the . You have this paper before us? Any questions or observations. Erm, yes, Mr Chairman. Erm, certainly it's a most interesting paper and er, certainly I think in the County we're doing very much er,think ever possible. Er,a knowledge but erm, I would have to move that we cannot accept this recommendation because, it's not that we don't er support the scheme within this paper, but it's that we cannot accept. And maybe you want to know what and what would happen to the programme it would be wrong at this point in time, to accept the paper before one knows what the is of the County Council as a whole will be. Erm, no. Your moving, and so that's a direct negative. Thank you. Any other comments? No. I'll put it to the vote. Do you agree with the recommendations on the paper? Chair. Against. Six, Chair. Good. Thank you. That is er, carried. Paper H. Mike where's Mike, oh you're there, Mike. Thank you. Thank you, Chair. This paper is er, a follow-up to a earlier paper that was presented to this committee back in October ninety-two. Erm, that paper reported on mortgage loans to employees, including two types of loan whereby the interest is not charged to an officer. Firstly the sole bridging loans where the council relocates an employee within the county because admin reorganisation. And secondly a temporary bridging loans for recruitment purposes, where an employee moves from another area to accept a post. Some years ago now, I left teaching, erm, and joined Abbey. I went on an induction course down in Bournemouth, which was all technical, er, I came back to see my first clients, and I cringed at the thought of it. Can you imagine, you know a teacher, I thought I had to tell them every minute detail of these plans. All that business about allocation of units, I'm sitting them this. I mean, I still now, cringe at the thought of it. Because that isn't what the clients want to know. They want to know that you know it, and they want to feel confident that if they ask you question you can answer it, but they very much want to know what it does for them and how much it's going to cost them basically. Erm, perhaps the easiest way to talk about it is, it's a fact that one point three million, quarter inch drill bits are sold in the U K. In fact they were sold last year in the U K. Now, one three quarter inch drill bits. I mean can you imagine people stopping their friends outside the D I Y store and saying you must buy one of these bits, it's absolutely superb, look at the metal, look at the shape, it's absolutely wonderful. They haven't been bought for what they are have they? They've been bought for what they do. They've been bought for the fact that all over the country there's all these holes in the wall and people are putting up shelves, building furniture or whatever. So it's very much what it does, and not what it is. Erm, another way of er, er, talking about it. You're going to a friend's for a barbecue on a hot summer's evening, and you're walking up the drive and you can smell the barbecue sizzling away. Er, er, and your mouth starts to water, and you're thinking, this is going to be great. You get to the barbecue, and amongst other things they're barbecuing sausages, and you think super. Well if they actually took the time to explain to you what went into those sausages, you probably wouldn't eat them at all, would you? But, because of the smell and the taste and everything, you're quite happy to er, eat the sausages. You go for the sizzle, not the sausage. So that's what we're going to be talking about now. Turning features into benefits. We'll think you'll agree, after we've been through the Covermaster Plan, it's choc-a-bloc full of features, waiver of premium, escalating premium, insurability option, life cover, selective periods, bonuses, you name it, there's hundreds of features of the plan. We're going to look at how we can talk about them as benefits to the client. There's two ways of doing it. Er, the first, the most straightforward way is to name the feature , if you want to briefly describe it if it's appropriate, and I mean briefly,then use a link phrase like what this means to you and come out with a benefits statement, something that the client can relate to, and the final piece in the jigsaw is to ask the client how he feels about it. What does he think? How do you feel? Erm, let's take waiver of premium, and go through that process. Andrew, is there a feature in this plan called waiver of premium, what these means to you is that if you're off ill for a long period of time, through accident, ill-health, whatever, Abbey will actually still pay them for you, until you're well again. How do you feel about that? It sounds good. It sounds great. Yes, nice and simple. Don't go into all the technical details without er, six months er, payable until you return to work, reach sixty or die, payable for by reduced allocation to the units according the age and sex, etcetera, etcetera, and tell him what it does for him. In the Covermaster Plan, Andrew, there's something called waiver of premium, what this means to you is that if you're off work through illness for a long period of time, Abbey's going to pay the premiums for you. How do you feel about that? Great, I'll have that, I'll have two in fact, yes? Keep it short, keep it simple. , keep it simple. It's stupid , but having said, yes, remember that. Now there's another way of doing it, which done well is more powerful. But you have to think about it and it comes with practice, which as you obviously sell more and more of these plans, most of which have got waiver of premium. First of all what you do is disturb the client, or put another way, you create a problem,and then you solve it, with a feature,and then you ask, what do you think, how do you feel? . If I take the same example, waiver of premium, erm, and I'm relating to knowledge that I will have got through the plan your future document, if I use Andrew again if I may, if I say to you, Andrew, erm, you explained earlier that erm, if you're off work through ill-health, your employer will actually pay you for six months, and then it stops. That's true isn't it, yes? Can you see that maybe, if at some time in the future, you do have er, some bad health, or perhaps get involved in an accident, that after a period of time, it might be difficult to actually find the money to pay for this plan we're establishing tonight? yes Yes, well the good news is, that there's actually something called waiver of premium on the plan, which looks after exactly the, looks after exactly that case. Yes. If you're off work for a long time, Abbey's going to pay the premiums for you, until you get well again. How do you like the idea of that? It all sounds fine. Yes, you disturb him. Some people will actually say, if I could add something to the plan that would cost you just a little bit more, which means that if you're off work through illness, the company, Abbey will pay the premiums for you, would you be prepared to pay a bit more. No. Most people would say yes, actually, if you put that way. But what do you say, well the good news is, it's not going to cost you any more. It's automatically included. So you can do that as well. But, if you do it that way, it's often more powerful, because you're relating to the client's circumstances. Either way, keep it simple and get the client to tell you what he thinks. Are you happy with, with the idea and the way I put it across, yes? Speak to me. Mhm, yes, Yes, good, because you're going to have a go at it. Oh. You might have known that was coming, mightn't you? What I want you to do is shout out as many features of the plan as you can think of, and then in a minute we'll look at changing them into benefits. So, off you go. Escalating premiums. Escalating premiums, yes. Unit linked. Unit linking. Whole of life Whole of life, Erm, Come on, we've been through all this Terminal illness. Terminal illness benefit, yes. Waiver of premium. Waiver of premium. Death benefit. Death benefit, or, yes. Paid up Sorry. Paid up Paid up option. Right. Insurability Insurability. Flexibility Flexibility, yes, you can change levels of cover, selected periods. Possible option of surrender value at the end of Yes, surrender value,and partial surrenders, yes? I think we've probably got enough now, how many have we got? One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve, right. I'm going to ask you as an individual to choose one. And just to put together a way that you can change it from a feature into a benefit, using either of those ways. Or you can just give yourself some bullet points because you don't need to write out the and's and the the's and whatever. But we'll ask you to select which one you're going to go for, and as I know we've got a room full of gentlemen, let's start with the ladies first. Kim, what would you like? Erm, waiver of premiums, Waiver of premiums, crafty. Er, Shirley? Flexibility Flexibility, oh that was the one you gave me, yes. Er, Janet? Unit linking. Unit linking. Sue? Selected period, Selected period, right, Andrew? Erm, surrender value. Surrender value, David? Whole of life. Gerald? I'll take death benefits. Death benefits, Philip? Escalating premium Escalating premium, Ilias Partial surrender Partial surrender, John. Oh, terrific, I haven't written that have we? Terminal illness. Terminal illness. Right, everybody clear on what you're going to do? Spend a, a minute or so, putting your thoughts together, you can write it out if you want to, or you can just give you bullet points, what you've chosen you're going to change into a feature. If you start to go on to the other p , side of the page, start again. Keep it simple, yes? And try and personalise it, I don't mind if you refer to any information that you might have gathered during the evening, a bit like I did with Andrew. Yes, but assuming that those people were being paid at work for six months, and then there was a problem. You can give them children, you can give them anything you like to try and personalise it, but keep it simple. Right, are we ready? No, not yet. No, no, we don't want any essays. Keep it simple You're not giving him time off again, are you? You know, I mean, all this freedom? As you're finishing off, let me explain what we're going to do. Erm, I'm going to ask, first of all, for a volunteer. Since you're all going to have a go, you can who'd like to volunteer, so who would like to volunteer. Who's going to volunteer, Gerald's volunteered. Oh, we've got two here. Gerald will start, er, and he will talk to you as if you were a potential client, but so he can actually relate it to somebody, he'll choose one of you. One of your colleagues, anybody in the room, and if you, when you are the potential client, when you talk to Gerald or whoever's talking to you, er, as if you're a potential client, relate to everything he says. If he says you've got six children and you work at the local factory, you do, yes? You respond in kind. Erm, and he'll finish it off by asking you what you think about it, and obviously you respond to that. So Gerald who're you going to start, have as client. I'll have John. John, right, off you go then. So Gerald to John, what are we talking about? Erm, death benefit. Death benefit, right. O K then, O K then John, er, looking at your erm, at your fact file, we see here that we've actually got erm, twice the amount of your salary erm, for life cover, which your company which your company actually offers, offers you. O K? Yes. O K, so at the moment, you've got two times your salary erm, life cover. Let me ask you John, how would you actually feel if you were made redundant tomorrow? How would your family actually er, benefit? Well because I've only got the life cover, then er, that cover would disappear. O K Er, and I'd have to start thinking about where I am again. How do you actually feel about that? Not too happy. Not too happy. O K, if I could actually show you a way where there's not such a problem today, how would you feel then? It depends how much it cost. O K, that's great, yes? Related to him, worried him, and offered him a solution, yes. Good, so John it must be your turn now, so you can select anybody else in the room, and go through the same process. Alright, erm, Janet. What, what are you talking about John? Oh, erm, terminal illness. Terminal illness, right. Janet, erm, obviously we'd examine your circumstances from time to time, erm, but er, there are obviously perhaps areas that concern you. Erm, if you were diagnosed as having cancer, and was intending to be dead in nine months, what would your reaction be to that? How can I put that, keep me, how can I look after myself as I obviously won't be able to work, and look for ways about er, getting my house in order before I er, finally die. Well yes, of course you would, that's obviously quite a worry. Mm, it is, yes. Quite a concern. Well, how would you feel if I was to tell you that within the policy it was possible that the sum could be paid, it might even be paid up before death. yes, like what? What's the test? Well if you had er, your illness and so on, and the other debts that you may have, erm, and bearing in mind that you actually only have the nine months, you might be a little bit more er,a bit luckier than that, but how about a holiday in Disneyland? Gosh, that's like going to hell isn't it? Well would that, that, that's what, would that be of interest to you? No, but there's plenty of things I would like to do, people I'd like to see, yes, yes. There's certainly things a bit of extra money would make enjoyable in the last few months. Right well, I think I can show you a way on how to go about that. How much more would it cost? Ah, well that depends on how much you want to spend. No, it's not going to cost her any more, because it's included in the plan, so it's not going to include, so it's not going to cost her any more No it doesn't Good, well done. Well personalised. Yes, er, very good effort. Erm, is it, would it, it showed you not to put words in her mouth, but I mean, it was nice to talk about Disneyland. It brought a lovely humour to the situation, erm, but maybe to ask her what she'd likely to do, like to do in those er, last er, nine months or so. Good. Well done, John. Janet? Oh, I wish I hadn't chosen this particular one. Can I ask, address another table, N , yes, anybody, yes. Right, David I'll talk to you. About? About? Erm, unit linking. Unit linking. Right. Right, David, you said you'd been approached by another insurance company, er, I could obviously say, I recommended Abbey Life, and I'm tied to that, but I actually joined because I think they're a particularly good company, in that what, in the use they make of the money that I'm paying, actually goes, performs very well. And I'll explain this a bit more. Erm, we, when we first came into the industry, erm, we brought in a totally new policy that the funds to provide the pensions and action, we put into unit trusts. You know, do you know anything about unit trusts? Not really, no Well it goes into a pot, and it, it buys into different funds which are invested in different markets, erm, to give you some examples, erm, we can invest in property, we can invest in some securities, government securities, er, we invest in the Stock Exchange and we have managers who look after these funds, and they perform extremely well. And if you go and have a look at the tables, you find that Abbey Life actually makes your money grow faster than a lot of other insurance companies. And the benefits of this is that er, as you know, erm, inflation takes over, and we measure our spending power against that, five pounds in your pocket today, won't buy what tomorrow, what it bought this year, and next year, what it would have bought this year. So we have to keep ahead of that, because we're planning the benefits for you, twenty or twenty five years' time. So we have to make sure the money you pay to us, actually is going to grow so it gives you a very good return on that money in twenty five years' time. So we put it into this pot and we invest it in as many funds and spread the money out, so if, if one fund doesn't produce very much in return, another fund will, and so we in fact, get a better spread throughout the market, than you could do as an individual. I mean you could go out, and you could put a little bit of money in the building society, or the bank, or you could have a gamble on the Stock Exchange, but we have two advantages. We have erm, managers of these funds who have a lot of expertise, a lot of experience, we've been going over thirty years now, and we've grown extremely quickly because of the expertise of our managers. We give our expertise for nothing really. It doesn't cost you any more, you just throw them in for free. And the other thing is you clearly get a good spread of the market, and we know that this method will produce erm, a return for you which will keep your spending power ahead of inflation. Is there anything you'd like to ask me? Can you please go through it again for me. I must have had a death wish choosing that. Janet that was a lovely, clear description. Erm, but, how could you have improved it? Well I would have liked him to participate more, but I didn't know how to lead him. Yes, yes, you needed to involve him, erm, yes, that's my trouble. But, erm,, it was too long wasn't it? It was too long, and you didn't involve the client. But I've, I've honestly got to say on your behalf, it was a lovely clear description of what happens as well, and there were some nice positive statements about Abbey er, and er, why unit linking is worked for Abbey, etcetera, so lots of it was absolutely great, but You've got to count your words when you're playing the recorder. One thing I would say, it's very difficult to put over, is to get over,of the part you've paid back it is, it is You've just, you've just got to ask, ask his opinion, is it important to you that you get a return on the money that you invest with us, yes? Or do you feel comfortable making decisions about where you're investing your money, or would you be happy for somebody else to do it? Either way you could offer him Yes, I see, yes er, I said, I could have said if you had been given a hundred thousand pounds how, or fifty thousand pounds how would you invest it? Yes, if, if, if you can involve him more, but obviously this is a very nerve-racking situation, and er, the description was great, please , yes, the description was a death wish thinking that was Right, Philip Escalating premium. Escalating premiums, talking to? I think David, because he didn't answer Janet. Right. Right, O K, here goes. David, just looking at your situation, I know you're er, a young chap and you have a young family, and we've er, discussing your existing circumstances and I can see that at the moment er, funds in the family budget are a little bit tight. If I could show you a way of keeping your premiums at an affordable level but still obtaining the li , the level of life cover that you need to be of to your wife and your family, would, would that be of interest to you? Well it's er, if it's cheaper then yes. Right, O K, well we have er, a feature in the er, in this particular policy which is er, full estimated Stop, stop , you've done it, just leave it You know, quite a useful No, no, no, just leave it. You did it very well, you're in danger of talking yourself out of it. You needed to stop there because he did it very well, didn't he? He personalised it, he told him exactly the benefit of escalating premiums, and he couldn't say anything other than yes, because it was what he wanted. But that was very good. Very good. That's the hardest part. Right, David? Well I'll go over the other side, Andrew. Andrew, right . Presumably. Erm, Andrew, er, I, I find that earlier on the, the only life cover you've really got is one that you took out a few years ago, a very small one, and you took that out for a set number of years. So you took that out when you were twenty, and I believe it's er, finishing when you're fifty. Yes, that's right. So you've got, after that you've got nothing. There's nothing coming after Nothing at all How do you feel about that? About all that, all those premiums you've paid and you're fifty one, and all of a sudden you've got nothing at the end of it? I can't say I've ever worried about it, I just thought I'd look at it when I got there. Mm, so what if could erm, could come up with a policy, that you pay your premiums in, but it covers you for the whole of your life. So that no matter when you die, whether you're a hundred and twenty or whatever, you can get the sum that you've assured, well that won't help you, but your dependents will. Would that be of interest to you? It would yes. Yes, good. Er, one good example, as cited er, er, a term policy, if you couldn't cite one that he had himself, you could cite examples so that people know about it. A little bit of a tendency to talk too much about it though. Yes, keep it bit shorter and simpler, but, just the right way of going about it to illustrate the point. How would you feel if you'd been paying this money for ten years and then you lived, you lived after than, and you got nothing for it basically. We're talking the whole of life. Good. Erm, Andrew? Erm, I'll look at Ilias. Right. Right, erm, as you've heard, this policy is basically for your protection, but it does over a number of years, acquire a bit of savings. Obviously,th , there is four or five years there's nothing to speak of, but after that it does acquire more. So like yourself, you've got a daughter, who perhaps fifteen, twenty years' time, will be getting married, at which point the policy could be surrendered to put towards the cost of the wedding. Or when you retire, it could be used as a lump sum to set yourself up initially for your retirement, so how would you feel about that? Yes, I would be in trouble. you'd have more savings. Yes, yes, good. Good, because you set it out, as as, er, you gave a scenario where the money would be useful to the fu , the future, so that was, that was good. Erm, you could have got to the close a little bit earlier, but then it, I think you were just finding your words, that was good, well done. You related it directly to Ilias. Ilias, who're you going to talk to? No it's got to be somebody who hasn't had a go, otherwise the system falls down, doesn't it. Shirley, Kim, somebody close? Shirley, if sometime in your life er, you need money er, for example, er, you're in when you're a start of marriage, and you have mortgage, how will you go to ? Er, with difficulty. Well in er, this policy any time if you want to surrender so if you need er, some of the money, you can get that money or any time. Will it affect my life cover then? yes. O K, that, that was, that was a good er, it was a good setting the scene, because you related it to Shirley. Shirley came up with a stat , with a question, which is a very important question, will if affect my life cover? Obviously it depends how much you take out. But if you start talking about taking some of the cash from the fund, you've got to tell the clients it could affect the cover that they've got, because it isn't a savings policy. But it's a bonus isn't it, because they've had all this protection on this and they've still got some cash building up. O K, good. Shirley? I'll go with . Right so if we pay you by five yearly value in three months, and invest for initially life cover of twenty thousand, and that's O K for now. And we take you three years along the line, so your husband dies, and you've now got a young child. Do you think twenty thousand is going to be adequate. No it probably wouldn't be. Well this policy is actually flexible, you can actually if you do have children, you can then increase the life cover. That's exactly what we want. Well done Sue, you actually stopped her finishing it. Oh You did it, you did it very well, yes, but you needed, I know you were going to, you needed to say at the end, is this important to you, or is this something you would like on your policy. Good, well done, Shirley. So Sue, it must be you, to Who's left? Kim? Kim, I think, is it? Right,Kim, erm, we talked, we talked earlier about life cover er, on death, on the death of your husband. You actually have three children under the age of seven, and if your husband died while they were still young, still in education, heaven forbid, but these things still do happen, it might be that you think that you would need more cover at that point in time, than later on, maybe when the children have left home. Would it be fair to say that that's a good statement to make? Yes, it would be, yes. How would you feel if you were able to designate more life cover for a selected period of your choice, er, and then, maybe alter, er, the cover later on, so that you can have higher cover at certain points in your life, to cover these critical things, like your children's education, while they're growing up erm, at any point in the future. That's it. Good, well done Sue. Erm, yes, selected periods. Well presented, well personalised, did they have to finish it? No Yes, before you started repeating. It's very difficult to keep it simple, it really is. I mean, I know Gerald went first, and I know he's been in the business a long while, but he actually managed to say it all in about three sentences. That's experience, but that, that's what we're aiming to a , er, achieve. Kim, last but not least, it's to Gerald, Hello That was nice and short and simple, well done. Do you want it or not? That's it, that's it. Do I get a waiver of premiums with it? Lovely You've put me completely off, now. I knew I'd got kids written down here for a reason. Even started whether there's not two extra, but it costs more. We were talking earlier, and I understand you liked to ride at the weekends, and you're often competing on your horse, er, ha, if you were to have a fall, and erm, you had a back injury, or erm, you sustained an injury that would you keep you from work for a substantial amount of time, er, how would you feel, would you be able to pay your premiums? Would it be a problem to you? Well, not really, not to begin with, because I get erm, sick pay from work, I get that for six months. But if it's an on-going problem that, would possibly keep from work, let's say for a year. Yes, then it would be a problem. Right, well we, we have something which would actually solve that, erm, which would be of benefit to you, and would actually cut in at the six month period, and would continue paying your policy and your premiums, until your retirement age if necessary. Would that be of interest to you? Oh, yes, yes. Good, well done, Kim. You weren't put off by all the bawdry earlier, well done. In fact, well done everybody, because it sounds a simple thing to do. When we actually got down to it, it wasn't quite as simple was it, and I think every one of you were personalising it really well, and making an excellent start. Good. That actually brings us to the end of the Covermaster product. We've spent nearly all day, talking about something what you knew about. Well hopefully you've found it of benefit. What we're now going to look at is living assurance. Now, so we can actually distinguish between the two policies, which are very similar in lots of ways, we're going to start again by looking at a video. Now this video, erm, was compiled by Dr. Marius Bernard. Dr. Christian Bernard, the South African surgeon, heart surgeon, his brother. He was talking at the Life Assurance Association er, convention in London I think it's er, three year ago now, in er, nineteen ninety, it must be ninety one, because I went on a course then. Erm, and he can tell you better than me, really the benefits of living assurance. So I'd like you to, as you did this morning please, move your chairs all round, close the blinds, and er, it's the, the second video of the day. If you want to, it's going to last erm, about half an hour. Right, fine. Have you heard of Dr. er? Yes Oh, right, well. Do I have to things to talk about it, Yes, yes, yes. Oh, by the way, you've got to work through this video. You know your workbooks that you've got, he's actually asking you a few questions relating to the statistics that er, Dr. Bernard's going to mention, so can I ask you to get your workbooks and a pen, just so that you can jot down some of the information. You have to listen quite carefully. What do you mean workbooks? I mean workbooks. Oh. Yes, these things. I thought those were for Everyone found their's. No They were given out yesterday, Philip. Were they? Oh, how silly of me. Again I didn't like to say that, Has he been hassling you? Yes. Page ten. Please welcome Dr. Marius Bernard. Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen, er, looking at you and listening to you, it's certainly different to the operating rooms that one's used to working in. Er, don't feel a bit disappointed that during my presentation I'll be expecting to this hospital, I'll take you to the operating room, er Please , Sorry But certainly it's very real to what we're going to talk about today That's O K I'd also like to say, Mr. Chairman, that er, I didn't recognise the hospital you said, where we did this operation,, erm, if you want to, see me afterwards, I'll tell you that you take at the hospital. But you've got to be an erudite to be able to understand that. Ladies and gentleman, I'm very honoured really indeed, it's a privilege to be part of being here today, as part of the insurance industry. I believe very gratefully, and very sincerely about a great tomorrow, and my profession is striving to bring that to the health of peoples and nations. I've been very fortunate to be able to become part of your industry, to see part of your contribution to my patients for the great tomorrow. I'm not an insurance man, I'm a doctor. I couldn't care about the insurance companies, although I love your where I choose. I can care about my patients, and I sincerely hope that you will make it possible for my patients when their diagnosis is made, to have that knowledge that financially, he has a great tomorrow. I believe that insurance is an honest attempt to provide financial security and independence when you need it most. And you really need it most when your health starts failing. When the diagnosis of the illness is made, think around your clients and your relatives, because that opportunity to generate the financial security and the friends you need, is threatened by the guilt. Now where does the doctor come into this? I want to go back the year, nineteen hundred, and let's hear the causes of death, because when many infectives caused by viruses and the bacteria, the life expectancy for a male was fifty, and for a women was fifty four. If I was born in that period, I would be dead already, and you wouldn't need to listen to me But if you look at this as far as the medical profession and the insurance profession need each other, what happened to these people when they develop an infective condition? Pneumonia for example. It was very easy, they either died, four or five days later, very cheaply it used to cost ten pounds to die. It was a very cheap affair. Or they recovered, but what happened? When they recovered, there was no destruction of the heart, lungs and they could go back and work, a young person, as if they'd never been ill. But if they died, there was a very young family, a young wife, needing financial independence that was given to them by you, with a life insurance policy. Really it's a death insurance policy. That's what it is. Now the medical profession responded to this state of affairs, and created antibiotics, I can assure you today, that if you die of pneumonia, you can sue your doctor, with the greatest of thought that you'll get paid. And they've developed vaccination and immunization, so the infective conditions are no longer causes of death. You see now that the most common cause of death is what they call the of diseases resulting from degenerate lifestyles, and I'm very proud and I'm very proud to tell you that although I come from South Africa, and you might not think I'm very intelligent, as you sit here, down here and there, I can sign your death certificate already. Fifty percent of you will die of heart attacks, twenty plus will die of cancer, and ten percent will die of strokes. And it's getting worse. Why does this happen. Longer life expectancy. Your life expectancy as a male today is seventy four years, and for the females of the species, and we love them, your life expectancy is eighty years. Isn't it amazing? So what we doctors gave you, you developed this lifestyle. You should thank your doctor. Thank you for curing my pneumonia and , now I'm going to abuse my body. I'm going to smoke too much , I'm going to smoke too much, I'm going to drink too much, I'm not going to do enough exercise, I'm going to put on too much weight, I'm going to stress myself too much, and I can talk to you five days about those conditions. If you're going to insurance, think then, just think with me back, have you seen that? You remember this man? He thinks he's thin, for a Merry Christmas, test the health of your eggs. You could just as well say the same for him, death in a box, but it is a, and now the next advert, with him now, the next advert is even better. More doctors smoke Camels than any other cigarette. Can you just imagine me advertising that today. I would be shot before dawn. Now, what's happened because of this debilitative lifestyle. It has developed two types of condition. The wonderful arteriosclerosis, and the wonderful cancer. Who will get this arteriosclerosis, as you sit here, let me tell you again. If you just born you're free, at the age of five, fifteen percent is attacked, at the age of eight, it's forty percent, and eight of you over forty, congratulations, you're all got arteriosclerosis. All of you. Now what is arteriosclerosis? It's a deposit in the arteries of fat. It looks the English breakfast fixing it up for, that's what and if you, if you want to look at an X-ray, you will see that the arteries of the body, those are the arteries, bring the blood supply is blocked with arteriosclerosis, and there you can see the English breakfast, the yolk of egg, the butter and all these things that are in there, causing a blockage of the artery, not enough to that muscle, and a heart attack, death and all these unbelievable things, that give me a little bit of income. ,. I had a very serious patient er, the other day, and I treated him and gave him six months to live, but at the end of six months, he didn't pay his account, so I gave him another six months.,. Now God in his wisdom unfortunately, unfortunately blocked the most important arteries of the body. Not the arteries to your toenails or the tip of your nose, but the arteries to what we call the vital organs. The coronary arteries, heart, heart attack. Carotid arteries, stroke. Aorta, aortic surge, renal arteries, free kidney failure, these are what blocked arteries can do. Can you hear the dread disease conditions entry there. Now what happens when your arteries get blocked? is that you get a pain in the chest, a piece of your heart dies, if you have a heart attack, or the whole heart dies off and you have death. One of the easiest diagnoses in my profession. There are more than a hundred and fifty thousand heart attacks in your country every year. That's not true, don't you believe it. It's more than three hundred th , three hundred thousand. That was the slide of approximately eight years ago. It's a galloping form of death, due to modern lifestyles,. That's the brain, that's a stroke, the brain is a very sensitive part of the body, and as you know in this very topic of debate, if the brain don't get enough blood, er, for three minutes, you've got permanent brain damage and the only occupation that's suitable is that of a politician. ,. There are more than a hundred thousand stroke victims in your country every year. Kidney disease, ten thousand new, five thousan , ten thousand total, five hundred new cases. That's a beautiful slide of carcinoma of the rectum, just to give the r , the carcinomas,, especially for you, carcinoma of the lung, as we say in Africaan's, weaker, that's nice. That's what you get from smoking. There are more than two hundred and forty thousand people in the United States who die of cancer every year. And that's the quickest hospital, because we've responded again in the medical profession. Do what you have done, abusing your bodies. We said if you want to abuse your bodies, we're going to take every bloody pound you have in your pocket away with you, with the most modern medical treatment, bowels. Heart-lung machines, that a machine that I can use, when you're put in a heart-lung machine, I stop this machine, I keep this machine going, and I take out your heart, and your, your heart, I drop it on the floor, pick it up, wash in Parmolive soap, and put it back again. All these things I can do, to prevent death. Young babies, baby are there days of care, and look what we get. Isn't it amazing. Are you going to be sure that that money is available to provide for this. Isn't that beautiful? Isn't that the most beautiful photo you've ever seen in your life. No applause, no cheers, you know that's made to feel here. This is, it's your heart, ladies and gentlemen, with a normal heart muscle. Now when you abuse your bodies, and you get the coronary artery disease, what happens? That heart becomes looking like that. It looks like it's been on the M twenty five on a Friday night, and every tyre's been over it. . Now that normal heart you saw, you saw that normal heart, I would ask you if it was in a twenty five four year old man, do you think that man is alive or dead? Yes, he's dead, he was killed in a motor car accident. And the heart of that that's been on the M twenty five, is the patient alive or dead? Twenty two years later, and there he spends, with the , was our eight heart transplant patient. Sam says before he had his heart attacks, he had five six, I'll have to change the story. Twenty two years later, and there he spends, with the he was our eighth heart transplant patient. Sam says before he had his heart attacks, he had five, six, I'll have to change the story, he has a heart transplant, he developed diabetes, and he's later amputated. Do you know when he comes down here, he complains about this. It's like my when he was eighty, they asked him how do you feel? If I think of the alternative, I feel bloody well. ,But, but it is very serious. He has one complaint every time he comes and sees us. What's that? Money. This operation and this threat to his health, has created a lack of possible to regenerate the money needed for him, and his financial independence has been threatened. You from the insurance industry, twenty five years after heart attacks, when he should have died, despite the modern medicine. After twenty three years, after the heart transplant, eight years after osmosis , I want to give you his secret, guess what he's got. He's got a life insurance policy. It's amazing. And that life insurance policy to him, is of no help. He needed something new, because we in the medical profession, in responding to your new diseases, from the abuse of your body, have created the situation that you've got to insure yourself, that financially independence, not because you're going to die, but because you're going to live. And that is the way that we develop the concept of great living insurance. Creating these insurance to die is the number one need for financial independence, because we as doctors are going to spread the news with our modern lifestyles, because unlike the pneumonia patient you're not going to recover and go back to work, unlike the, the heart transplant, as the heart transplant, or the heart attack or the cancer patient, maybe at our expense. Invest money. Give you an example. If any of the you, I challenge to go to your bank manager tomorrow, and say to him, I've had a heart attack, I'm not going to pay my loan of a hundred thousand pounds. Do you know what happens? He'll get a heart attack, that's what happens. . That's just the things we do, with the coronary arteries, we do coronary artery by- passes, I can, I can sew like any woman, I can darn your socks, we stick the veins on and we re-establish the the heart going a bit faster. Now, three hundred thousand men and women suffer heart attacks each year in your country, but many will survive. Think about the word survive, before I tell you, what does that mean, survive? We as doctors say, we're so bloody wonderful, you know we're very important. We're so wonderful, our patients survive. If he drops dead when he gets out of hospital, we no longer care about him, as long as he survived. Who is going to survive. Seventy seven percent will survive five years, fifty eight percent survive ten years, and forty seven survive thirty years, and we are improving. We are the miracle men have decided that you're not allowed to die. Let us promise you, you are not allowed to die any more, we are going to s , to improve our treatment, and you're going to survive, but with daily, increasing threat to that financial dependence that you've so keenly want, that you want for your loved ones. Do you want see your ? Isn't that beautiful? Have you seen anything like that? That's the lungs. I wish I could talk longer because I'd like to tell you about the lungs, but er, time's still. A twenty four year old woman came to see me for treatment on the ward, a smoker. I had to investigate her, and I diagnosed that she had cancer of the lungs. There's someone out already. She came to see me a year later, total loss of weight, total short of breath, hardly , she's struggling to keep body and soul together. She says to me, I cannot continue, she's dead already, I will never forget her face, never. Now what would have happened if her broker came to this convention and heard about their disease, and two years ago sold her a disease policy, that would have given her two hundred thousand pounds, on the diagnosis of the disease. That little girl had to struggle on because the flat rent had to be paid, she had to struggle on because she had a car, kids had to go to school, until she died. Now if she had two hundred thousand pounds, what would it have given her. She could have stopped working. She could have spent quality time with her children. If it happens to me, I will say, I'll take that two hundred thousand, and go to Hollywood, and spend the night with Madonna, that would have been my choice. It would have been Madonna's choice too by the way. ,. Thirty percent of all people in your country, your country, suffer from a condition called cancer, and ninety percent will be life threatening. How long they survive, if you look at my age, I'm a male, thirty five,forty seven percent, forty percent will survive at least er, five years. If you look at the Chairman, here this afternoon, sixty four, twenty nine percent will survive. But on the whole, of the diagnoses of cancers made today, more than fifty percent will survive more than five years. Have you ever seen a person with cancer of the lung, cancer of the stomach? Have you seen what their survival means? It's a slow progression to unableness to perform their daily needs especially to start with the threat to the person, of opportunities to greater income. Only crystal will pay up on the diagnosis, and make it possible. Like Samuel stated,in a woman suffered strokes, seventy eight percent will survive at least one, have you ever seen a person with a stroke? Have you ever seen a person with a stroke? It's not only the patient, who lies there paralysed and unable to talk, and unable to move, it involves his whole family. His whole family is locked into caring, working wives have to give up work to come and help them. There's a clue, there's a clue for the need of insurance, not because you're going to die, but because you're going to live, and that is the reason why I'm prepared to cross this world. I don't ask you to sell better , ladies and gentlemen, I don't ask you to sell itself for certain companies, I'd like you to, but I don't. What I ask you and I insist, that for a great tomorrow for my patients, you tell them about it. Just tell them about this product, what it can do, and I assure you of the results. You never have to tell a person who's had a heart attack, you never need to tell a woman when her husband has a stroke, I have to. Help me, give me that great tomorrow, by enough financial security. Look at what we've done to each other, er, to ourselves, in the young, in nineteen hundred, eight percent of people had heart attacks, six percent strokes, cancer, four percent, total eighteen percent. And now, with the way that the human take it to the medical profession for giving them a longer life expectancy, thirty percent of people are diseased. Twenty one cancer, and nine percent strokes. It varies from cancer, in world statistics. You must watch our statistics. In America, it's been shown that statistically, that men have got more children than women. So be very careful with statistics. This is the figure of your country, I think are very significant, of the reduction of death rates of people, are getting higher and higher, and the time that's spent through illness off work, and there's an increase in survival after the diagnosis of the dread disease. Ladies and gentlemen, that's why I'm very proud. I've been very lucky, I'm not being charitable, but I've a lot of luck. I've been lucky to be able to launch the first concept of dread disease insurance, in South Africa you might have heard about us. It's called living assurance, launched August ninety eight, for Standard Life Assurance and Wallace . When we changed the concept of insurance totally, and we have said that the sum assured will be paid out on the diagnosis of the disease, and not on death or anything else. We then created the first product which heart attacks, strokes, cancers and certain coronary artery disease, which I can see. I believe you can see why, first of it it's most common, and second to coronary artery disease, I'm a cardiac surgeon, I want my piece of the action too, so we keep as well. We have a lot of privacies, and a lot of things until we change them, and you know why we changed it, because you went out and saw your clients and told them products and they reported you, and you came back and said but what about this, what about this? And we responded to the need that you, and I don't think you will ever appreciate it, I cannot thank you enough for your input in this product of yours. You made it what it is. Until we increase it by surgery for disease of aorta, renal failure, therapy for blindness, replacement of a heart valve and organ transplant. And then the danger of lungs and in which I do quite well, and you can say to us, and we earn it. Multiple sclerosis and any terminal illness. Why any terminal illness? Just in case, somebody escape that net of dread diseases The lucky ones. If your doctors says that you're going die within twelve months, we will accept it as a diagnosis of a critical illness. Erm, we are getting through on that, are you going to suggest on it? We are going to improve and produce what I believe the optimum product eventually. And you know it, it's amazing how since my involvement for the last two years in Great Britain, all the problems that you have with critical illness, all the problems. All those things about definitions, standardisation and all that. Do you know what, they said it's not justified, tell that to the young farmer of thirty four with a dread disease, his policy when we pay him two hundred thousand pounds in his hospital bed. Say to him it's not justified on his policy, I want the money back. It seems that it is not clarification of definition, tell that to the woman who looked for two, thirteen years after a stroke husband and they had to wait for his death, that you didn't sell him a dread disease policy because there is not clarification of definition. Tell the young mother whose child has just received fifteen thousand pounds after the diagnosis of leukaemia, that you shouldn't have filled the policy because the contexts where not standardised. No ladies and gentlemen, dread disease insurance is a success because it's needed today and tomorrow, and it works. What does it do? and then I'll finish and I'll summarise. If you want me to come back, I'll speak for another five hours. What does it do? Think about it very careful, it attains to the threat of loss of own ability. The person has his financial independence threatened by disease, is helped by the dread disease insurance. Compare it with life insurance, death insurance. It accelerates the pay-out by one day, two days, ten days, thirty days, of the death plan, because it pays out on the condition, that's going to be the cause of the death, and not on the death. So it accelerates death. So death insurance, dread disease insurance,, go to much, will do it far better, just quicker. That's all we can do. Inability to work, permanent disability, it accelerates permanent disability because ninety five percent of the conditions that cause the disability will pay out years before you have a disability. I am would claim now for a man who has a disability claim. His accountant said that my stroke is weakening his left arm, he's right-handed. He can speak with a bit of slurring, so what. He says he's got loss of memory, without a stroke, I have that as well, so that makes no difference. He comes and he wants disability. He is not disabled, and yet he makes like he never would have the diagnosis of disability recognised. But dread disease insurance recognised his condition long before disability, and finally what does the dread disease insurance do. It does something even more wonderful, it accelerates critical illness diagnosis by paying out on the disabling condition like loss of limb, where it creates a situation where the permanent person get paid out even before he has a critical condition, because that condition threatens his chances of paying his daily needs due to financial independence. And to continue ladies and gentlemen, I don't think you know where I come from, I've got illiterate parents, you might say that you can see that. My father was a missionary had come from a dusty little town in South Africa, I've got many wonderful experiences in my life, I've had experience of heart transplant. I've the experience of being in a political party that says one man, one vote, release Mandela, and all these things that we were nearly shot for. Today they let prisoners of South Africa say it, it's amazing. But I was also involved in an insurance policy that has been made available for my patients, when they have that worst moment in their lives, you've got cancer, you've had a stroke, to know that in this threat, to what's going to happen to them, they at least have financial independence. I believe that creates the great tomorrow. Life is not only quantity, it's quality as well. You have that choice, that chance to do that for my patients and I tell you, to be with you, to be part of you, I'm as a , I learn for you, I think of you, and I can just tell you, I wish you all the best, but I won't forget your responsibility to help the medical profession to make, with the work they do for a better tomorrow possible, due to your work, your hard attempts to give that financial ability through the best insurance policies on the market today. God bless you, everything of the best, thank you very much. Would you like to take a five minute stretch whilst before we continue. Right. You were saying that th the, the trainers pay for all these horse walks and maintain them? Your Erm What do they heath fees, there's heath fees, and there's all, all you have to pay for the heath fees and all, you know. Hmm Oh, yes. Was that for training? Yeah. Training was very very dear today, I dunno what it is now it was very very dear to train 'em. To own an animal you wanna be a millionaire you see. Well, you want a lot of money, don't ya? To do it well. Well, you know what it is buying one yourself. You gotta feed it properly Mm. Cost you a fortune, wouldn't it? Mm. Th th then, there the field, if you got a field to turn it out in, provide hay ever day, buy tons of hay for it, that's alright. You don't want it to have a lot of corn. You only want corn when you're working them. When you're hunting them and doing things like that. But hay suits any animal. But you that you can. Mm. Going back to the war time, the Second World War, you said that racing wasn't considered to be an agricultural industry. Breeding of horses was, Yeah but not racing. So what, how did the racing industry get on during the war. How did they manage? Well, they had to, they only raced at Newmarket. All through the war, they raced at Newmarket see fetched it all to one meeting, so that they didn't have to travel about. See, the animal didn't have to travel about so and most of the trainers come here, you see. Oh it was very good in the war time, cos there was only just I can't tell you now. I could tell you offhand, if I'd known how, where the race was or there's not many places. but all, all my races was run at Newmarket. Some was run somewhere else, but I couldn't tell you where now, not offhand. But all the races was run at Newmarket or Newmarket Heath. All everything. That were all, all cos of the war, see? Mm. And, all run here, everything was run here, and animals, animals that won here, well er well I think they put them down as better animals than animals that raced before the war, you know, cos they had to do such a lot in a short time. You see, because all the Air Force had all the heath, they didn't have a lot of heath to train horses on, you know, then. You only had little bits, they claimed Waterhall for, for farming. We had to had to plough that up, and put and put er feed in it. Where was this? Oh what we call Waterhall. Waterhall? Yeah, where you come down that hill from the boy's grave. Yes. Well, on your right that's all, that's all Waterhall down there. That's all training round in there. Mm. See? That's on the, mm, that's on the Kentford Road from Bury coming in, isn't it? Yes yeah. Then when you get down into Well Bottom. You see a house on your left, don't you, pass the house on your left, well all on the right is a what they call the Limekilns. Yes. See?there the Limekilns are on Well Bottom to the top of the Down. Till you get traffic lights. Yes. All laid out special, you know for training. Mm. Galloping ground. During the war you had to grow food on it, you said. What? During the war you had to grow food on it, you said to me. Food. You had to grow food Yes. during the war, Yeah. you had to grow food on those areas, Yeah. where you said. You weren't allowed to use them. Oh no you weren't allowed er only the Limekilns we was allowed to use. Oh yes they'd be erm, tt agriculture. They'd ere pinch 'em, you see. They'd have to give so much away. Same as the south fields they pinched all a lot of that. We had to grow potatoes and saffron everything, you know. And these were usually on the training grounds Otherwise they'd have built on it or summat like that you see. That's why we have to do it. But it's all, all back again in its own place now. Mm. See, but th th the south fields, what was, was a good training ground for all of us. Two mile round, there was er the Air Force was on it, you see, the Ninety Ninth Squadron was, was down here see, all, all the war, all them, all that ground was under, under, all undermined with big petrol tanks. Oh yes, all down there that's where they bombed when the war was on and when they killed the people in the town. Oh yes. Th this was a great place, this was, very, very, very dangerous. Was there a lot of people killed with the bomb? One, two, four I, four I think four I think was killed tt Whereabouts did it fall? Outside the picture place. Outside the er Odeon what you'd call it,you know where outside there it fell. Killed the girl in the Post Office, I know. Post Office is this side of the road in them days. What, on the opposite of what it is now? two, two and three in the town were killed. Market day it was, you know, oh yeah. It was during the day? Yeah, I was down the paddocks, I was, I was. I was down the paddock. Before, I couldn't get down the High Street for bricks and houses, but they're not there now. I couldn't get out quick enough . I didn't know where it was. How did the war affect yo your training of the horses? Oh, it didn't interfere didn't interfere with th didn't interfere, the only thing about it, you had to do everything in daylight, there were no lights allowed at nights, you know. Mm You didn't have none of this. No electric lights. You had to do everything in daylight. You know very, that was, that was about the hardest part about it, cos no sooner you were done, you had to start again you understand? Mm Cos you had to get, do it with lights, and every window was blacked over, oh terrible. Terrible to work in it. But er, we, we got through it all, didn't we? We got through it. But that's, that's what happened. Did the horses do as well? Yeah, oh yeah. They didn't worry about them, they carried on just the same. you done everything exactly the same, only you didn't have the time to do it in. You woke up about an hour, you know the nights are shorter . Well, you see you finish in the morning about half past, half past twelve we used to, cos no sooner you get your dinner and had a drink, you had to be back again two o'clock or half past two to start on 'em again, you see, Mm which, so that you got the stables shut up before it got dark at four o'clock, ain't it Mm in the winter time mm. see, for the lights so you weren't allowed to put the lights on you see for the bombers. Show the Germans coming over, you know see 'em now you didn't have no street lights, did you. You didn't have no street lights. No. All treated all the same, you see. Mm Ah ah. Did racing continue the same during the war? Racing? Oh yeah, we raced just the same even though we had to do it early, so that some of them leave, and we started at sometimes half past eleven. Finished at half past two, you see,you know, shortened it up like that. Oh yes, they, they got, they got through everything alright pretty good. They're very good, very good indeed. Marvellous how it was run to tell you the truth. Oh, yes those horses come in horse boxes them days bit of luck instead of trains. They got them here, you see for the races. They used to come a day or two beforehand, you see, so they could be settled down and then race. Oh yes, everything was, it was very well run, it was manoeuvred very very cutely it was. Very, very cutely. But, of course you didn't, you didn't have the time to do a lot in the muddy light beat you. But you see you had to do as good as the same amount now, you know. You only got the same amount of money end of the week. You didn't get no more . No it wasn't easy. Talking of rac the racing itself. Have the racecourses always been as they are today? Or, or were they different in your childhood? No, always the same. Just the same as they are today. You know there were no difference in them only er as they go along now they're putting plastic rails up instead of being wooden, you see 'em there. See so many accidents happen, you see they're putting plastic up now. Then when we're bump against it would just bends over, you see. Mhm. Oh yeah, that's the only difference they be doing every racecourse like that. And you'll find in time th the racecourse'll be made of this here special stuff what they're galloping on. On the heath a special stuff they gallop on, you know. Oh, the all-weather Yeah, the all-weather gallops? yeah,wh what we call the all-weather gallop. Mm Well, some of the racecourse gonna be made like that and it cost a fortune, mind ya. I suppose Newmarket will be first one to make two,th they've got two courses here as it is you see. They'll do one, experience on it you see. See how it goes and make it all, all the one meeting that have July course, like we was all through the winter. All through the war, with July course you know you see. You didn't have no racing on the first course. Which is the first course? the first one. Mm As you go er the bottom one. Then there's one half way up up the Cambridge Road ain't there? What one's that? July Course they call i they call that. See, there's two racecourses in Newmarket. There's none in Newmarket, really. There's a there's erm let me see one, two, three, there used to be one, two, four meetings in Burrough Wood and two in Stetchworth. See, the July Course comes under Stetchworth Yes see, and n the first course comes under Burrou Burrou Burrough Wood you call it. See. That's how they're so rich. There's footmark, footpaths all over the heath you know, where people can walk, and they keep sticking sticks in the heath now, but they knock 'em down. They can't stop 'em. They stick Well bits of sticks in sticks in? you know, so they don't make paths for horses who jump over. See, you can't stop the people walking on cos th th th it's a law, you see. There's a byelaw all paths you see. So who puts the sticks in the ground? The heath men. They do. You know, trying stop you from walking on the Ah walking in the path. But you pull them out chuck 'em aside you see people do. Th they don't take no notice of it. See there was a case a little while ago weren't there, about farmer ploughed up a p footpath you used to get on a stile to walk across the field. Then you used to get some they're all byelaws, weren't there. Ah, in the end they fined him a lot of money, and they had him can't stop the public, you can't do that you can't. No So people walk over the racecourse, do they? Ah yeah, you can't stop people, The July Course? The July Course, you see. That was attached to for the July Course the Jockey Club runs a long way right near round on to the Swaffham Road, yeah see runs right up, right up to the Swaffham Road, you see. And all in there, there's Edginton House. You could go to all where the King, King Teddy owns you know. Edginton House. MacDonald's bought it or somebody after MacDonald's. That one's got, bought now. It's all different now, and years ago was King and on the side of the roads was special gallops for the marsh trained for King, King Teddy. There was always King Edward special ground for 'em, you know, everything. Oh, you could see Newmarket once they're stabled from Edginton House. From Edginton House to Lordship. They were all studs, big studs, with Edginton House was in, belonged to royalty. See there's down on the ground now cos somebody called Mr bought it now, I think. I, I can't tell you much about it. What royalty did it belong to? What? Which royalty did it belong to? King, King,K King Edward the Seventh. Edward the Seventh? Yeah, the seven, and em er diamond jubilee or summat like that. Oh yes. Ther was er er private trainer to the King. Dick was. And they had part of the July Course? . If you were going to you were going to or Cheltenham Cheltenham. Norfolk way. Er er what you go into Sandringham, tt on that back road from where you live, on that back road, going the back road. You'll see t the big w on the stone what they call Sandringham Stud. Blooming great fine statue of p and then you went down to the road where the Wolferton. That's another stud of his all along the estate. T beautiful place all rhododendron, you know, big bush rhododendrons. All you see over there, you never saw only them with, only them golden pheasants, that's all I saw. You seen them, have ya? Yeah. Beautiful, ain't they? Mm. Lovely. Yeah beautiful, I would like to get one of them. There was hundreds when we used to go there, yeah, never see oth never see any other colour. That's all I saw. Just the golden. Did the studs round Newmarket used to keep erm What? did the studs round Newmarket used to keep fancy birds? Always. All studs did didn't they? Don't know. Do they used to keep decorative things about? Ooh, yes. Plenty there's s s stud what the just bought. Making a fortune ain't he? He went into ooh, Down Hall, ooh beautiful place. Then the other one just bought er all this Wooddidden and er Dersley. The other one just bought that, and somebody else has just bought Manor, Manor Stud and Banston, Benton Manor. Were all these studs about before the First Wor before the Second World War? Yeah and the First World War. So they've been here a long long while. Yeah, they've been here years. Been here years. All jockey big-heads on the Jockey Club, you know first started them off like, you know? Mhm. Benson along the Ashley Road. Dougie the bookmaker used to own that. That belongs to a man called now he owned he owned North now what does he own now? He owns Indian I believe that'd r runs tomorrow. , he he owns them big stud, Beech House Stud, that's a all along Ashley reach right down here to your, to, to Upend, you know land . That was a Stetchworth, Lord Elliesmere, phworgh, horse studs. All wealthy people. Mhm. that's what I said. houses in them days, if you worked on a p work on a place, you had to live on a place, you see, if you got the sack you had to get out of 'em. Nowhere for you to go, was there? Is it Today they can't do it. Mm. If you'd got the sack What? if you got the sack Yeah. would you have found it difficult to have got work at another stables? Oh, no. You wouldn't find it difficult. You wouldn't find it difficult. Very seldom you heard of 'em getting the sack. Very seldom. Same as stud grooms, you never heard much stud grooms getting the sack. Or head man. See, you th you, you got so controlled, you knew the runs of the horses, you knew the ways of your horses, you knew the ways of your guvnor and, you change, you got to start a role all over again. You see what I mean it. That's why they don't sack people like that. You keep er and blacksmiths, that's why they own their own blacksmiths. Well, you see, if you keep changing the blacksmiths about and they're altering horses feet all the time, putting plates on, putting shoes on, you see it's a game of its own. It's one, one consistent game of its own. So, a blacksmith, then will Ah, they they all had their own blacksmith. You got one You got one one blacksmith does that yard, they l or two, two do the yards now, cos there's a lot of . Then two do them between them. And the blacksmith, is he an independent person? Oh yes. The guvnor is. Well he can't interfere with him. All you do is you put on the list all will want shoeing. Or come and send for him,h he what has to be in the yard, the blacksmith has to look thirty to forty horses their blacksmith has to look round every one of them. He has about sixty here. Every one of those horses he has to look round for fo all four feet up. That's two up, that's two up at er two or three up at , or . Are they employed by ? Yes. That was on the place. Oh, I see, he had his actual own Oh, yes blacksmiths? Oh, yeah. Because there are also some independent blacksmiths Oh er , oh yeah, got his place, well his men go round, he had got two or three men in every yard he has,. Mhm. He's just died, he has er he was head man of the lot of 'em. The head blacksmith, of the lot. He was Jockey Club man in charge of them all, oh yes. You couldn't come and, you come bouncing in here and say you were a blacksmith. You couldn't get started. Oh, no. So strict. So you have to be You had to be certified and serve your apprenticeship. And accepted by the Jockey Club. With everything, yeah,fo for a blacksmith today. What about in days gone by? What? What about in days gone by? Days gone by? Well, you had to send miles for them, didn't you er er blacksmith. Blacksmiths were the thing on the side of the road, didn't he do all the wheeling, mend your wheels, and all horse, all iron wheels, and things like that, won't years ago, and you had to send for him to come and do 'em,w well, he had men that he'd, that he'd taught like boys, apprentices. He, they used to go out and do all the outside work for him. All the horses? Yeah. Oh yeah. Blacksmiths started on the side of the road, that's how blacksmiths started. Who's gonna do all th them years ago, was all horse and carts, Mm. who was gonna axles and the bicycles and everything like that. But in Newmarket with the racing stables. Oh, there was always blacksmiths here. Always blacksmiths. Did they have their own blacksmiths then, or would there be like in the town that went round ? No, no, they didn't have. They used to have some had their own blacksmiths. The Honourable George like Lord Derby, he had their own, always did. They've shops up there now, all got blacksmiths shop, you see. Every stable. We had , you see, everything, everything, tooling for the plates, everything you wanna make. Your irons used to come longer than this irons, where you measure horses feet and you know, measure 'em up. You know they measure across from heel to toe Mm. then across from there to there. From side to side. Always do on a bed of wheat straw, so you nip it off from where the you see, and you know your measurement. Yeah. Oh yeah asking a man on this television the other night,th the heath man. I don't know if you seen it or not. , his name is. Now how can you tell the one horse from another? Well he said it would be by the markings. Yes, but he wouldn't get the markings unless he be through me. Or somebody in the yard he was paying. And you had to get, get a bit of paper and you drew a straight line, straight line, see like that, and if he had two white legs you put a cross, two white see, if he had a long one, he had put a big cross, if he had a long, two long white leg, if he had me behind you put a cross. If he had a white face, you put a mark down that way see. So it's like marking the points out on a horse, with crosses? Yeah. Mm. I'll show you before you go, give you a bit of paper Yeah. wh where we used to mark 'em. And when they say what we call 'em touts they were called then you know. Touts. On the heath. Some people chase them away, wouldn't let you see horses work and all that, you know. Oh, these were people trying to find out what horses might win a ra Yeah. yeah, be fit enough to win a race? Race, yeah. Mm. Very strict years ago, very strict. They used to get up trees with glasses and look with everything they Would they? Like spies . Oh, very strict years ago. They wouldn't let you th see anything. Oh no er er that's the secret of er that was. Oh yeah, oh,h have a good look. Foggy mornings, you used to gallop them in the fog, the best, gallop horses in the fog. See say you don't gonna gallop five fur you didn't gallop five furlongs, well, they might think you're gonna finish five, you only galloped 'em four. See pulled up. You done 'em all like that. Ah. Get up early in the mornings,gallo take 'em out and gallop 'em, take 'em back in. Shut the gates. Some of the men didn't know they'd been out exercising. Ah, I'm telling you the truth. That's where I served my time they didn't phew These, these touts. What were they looking for? Why, the books, report in the papers. They all had a paper the Evening News, the Standard, the Star, the Sporting Life ah all the papers wanted to know about the horses. So the tr the owners who owned them them days you could read about them, but they don't do it today, cos the trainers ring them up and tell them how they're going, don't they? So when you put these markings on your piece of paper Yeah. They paid you for it, they had to pay, to pay Who paid you for doing that? wanted them on the heath. What the heath men or the touts? Touts. Ow! Touts. Of course,yo you don't go tell him, it don't come on there does it. Cos you can live down there you know you're doing this you see. But that's how they used to know. Oh yeah. Al any mark or a white spot on them all tricks of the trade. If the lads had any brains th the touts used to say yearlings, they, in the yard got any, yes, get the markings for us, you see. They used take them and give them a drink. Really? But then, most of them relied on the head men, we used to tell them you see, to keep their mouth shut. So that when we galloped them they didn't know, see, mm, years ago they were very particular an another man didn't li , say I had horses and you had horses, I wouldn't like my horses galloping with yours. See my meaning? Mm. And th I, I wouldn't want yours galloping with mine. You understand? Mm. So you had to be pally so that your owners help one another. Yes. Get my meaning? So Oh yeah, they don't stand for that today, you know. Galloping one owner's horse with another. Oh no. Phew, you'd be surprised. Oh it ain't all, ain't all cushy, it's, it's a bit secret on some things, you know. Owners don't know everything. If they see their horses done You shoot me when you have a read of that. No Giving secrets away. Oh yeah, very, very, very phew oh yeah, they didn't like it. They used to ring one another up owners and they know one another in the yard. Oh definitely, they don't mind helping one another. See? Mhm. That's why Lord wouldn't have to give all that money. What was it, ninety, ninety odd, ninety five thousand pound. won last week at somewhere didn wasn't last week to lead Slip Anchor. To lead him work, instead of borrowing other people's in the yard. To lead him? To lead the horse. Yes, you have to have a lead horse in work. In front of your good ones. What so you can pace, be paced by it you mean? Yeah He's doing this horse now, Reckless Boy, he's leading him now. Oh yeah. That's why we Slip Anchor won so far he wasn't from here to cross the road. Mhm. See, cos he had this lead horse you horses jumped off. Made off couldn't catch him. That's what this one'll do. You see. See him far up ahead. They'll be coming down here saying thank you,what's the date today. Oh first of May tomorrow, yeah, no, Friday Friday about the twenty ninth today. Well, you can always say I missed tomorrow's till the end of April. They tell me he'll win the Derby. Yeah. Going well he is, I tell you. Is he? I think th I think the Frenchman will win the one thousand tomorrow and er, will ride the winner of the two thousand, Different to Me, or something, it's called. I don't think 'll stay, myself. Different people, different opinions, that's my opinion. Mm. That's all I know. So what would race days be like in Race days? years ago? Oh, they stayed just the same as they are today,yo you carried on just the same, only the difference in them now, race days years ago, the heath was shut at half past nine. You couldn't go on the heath and train horses up after half past nine. You understand, not this side. Mm. Race people, race days you see, people come to their races and put their tents and things up. And you all had to go over that side. Over the Bury side. Over Bury side, where you come down that hill. Yeah They always worked over that and around there. The other places look across the heath as you come up the, the road anywhere, but not on this side. Half past nine they finish. Same as the Limekilns, they are today. There's a certain gallop on the Limekiln shut at half past nine. If it's not shut at half past nine, it don't open till half past nine. You understand? Mhm. it don't open till all the people have used the short gallops. See cos you have to cross over 'em. You have to start at the top of the town that way, and go down over down and come round like that, finish off start down Norwich Road and come up Bury Road. So that's how far round it was. I suppose a mile and three quarters, I think. And one red house to the top of the lights, traffic lights. From one side of the road up the other. That's how it used to be years ago. Of course I co couldn't tell you now the different ways, they do what they like now. That's all I can hear about allowed to gallop his horses across the heath, er and all this rot. Terrible. did erm on race days, how did they organize the races? When you were a young lad. Organize well, they organize theirselves. The jockeys That's me, it's all right, it's my microphone. that's erm, erm nothing to do with us, the Jockey Club do all that. Th they organized all the races. All we got to do is enter, enter the horses in you get a paper called the Calendar. When you have that calendar sent you, it's a lot of money now. It used to be three and sixpence I think, it is about five pounds now. Well, you look through it, and every race meeting that's on there, probably five or six weeks. And you look through every horse wherever you want to put your horse in them races are in that Calendar and you pick your race out, put your horse in, pay your forfeit. Then you have to pay another forfeit if you leave him in. Understand? Pay another forfeit if you leave him? Forfeit. You pay a forfeit to put him in that race. See, if you want him to stop in it, you gotta keep paying the forfeit all the time th them weeks that go by. Same as years ago. I don't know, I don't think, think it's altered now, years ago you had to enter your y Derby horse. You had to enter them as foals, and then when you entered them it cost you fifty pounds to enter them, and it cost you fifty pounds for every quarter of that lifetime of that foal. So you run in the Derby. Why did you have to enter them as foals? Oh, I don't know, that was their idea, years ago. But I think it's changed Just but I think it's changing now, I don't know. I, I, I been out it a long while now. Did, did the racecourse used to be busy? What? Busy, you couldn't get through the streets for charabancs and charabancs in them days. Cabs and all all lined up outside the White Hart Jockey Club Rooms. All lined up the street. Cabs, you used to jump in and drive them up the road cos there were no motor cars. Oh no there weren't motor cars out for years, called them charabancs, charabancs you know. You used to meet in the Avenue, meet in the High Street. What taxis? Meet at the station. Used to be specials from the station. at station charabancs. Ooh all sorts, heath carts, donkey carts everything. So there was quite a bit of business in Newmarket for anyone who Oh the pictures, it's a pity I haven't got some. I ain't got some of the old pictures for ya. But it was a, a very good, very good in the old days. They sold horses outside the Jockey Club room years ago. Sold them? Sold them, yeah. A man used to stand on,no not them gates was there years ago there was a wall there. See be on a block, standing on the block. You used to run your horses up and down outside there and they used to sell them. What, racehorses? Yeah, anything, and anything. You sell everything. Anything. They sell anything. Up and down that's what they used to do. When was this? Oh, this is the old fashion, years ago. There's photographs of some people, I wish I could get them 'em. Marvellous. The things that used to go on in Newmarket. Ah, God yes. Was that this century? Ah? This century? Oh, yes. Ah, yes, of course it was. Yes What before the How's it going? It's alright It's just that end . Oh I do like sorry your nursery there. Yeah I put all the nurseries, all the placements I'd done at college an at and the employment. Have you done your school work experience? Yeah all the work experience that I did all four placements that we've done so far. And ones to come. Yeah the wa only one to come one was the one we were at originally, wasn't it? And the special. Oh yeah! You don't know if you're I forgot about that. wait 'till you're gonna have to do your own thing there when Yeah. you've finished those courses anyway Yeah. I don't think they'll be any use then. What did you want? What did you just put addresses or something? Yeah, I put well I put the name as well How do you spell socializing? I put the name of the person I was with S o c i a l l y I think No! No! I a l. Yeah mm socially . S o c i a l Yeah. as i w. s i n g. That's what I w I meant . Yeah. I put socially. So did you put that in the address? I'd do something what Yeah and then I put erm I just, I didn't put, sort of, what I did because it's work experience Yeah, yeah. so it's obvious what you did, and then I put the name What of the there person? Teacher Yeah of the teacher that you were with. What this side? Could do yeah, I can't remember where I put it, but I do don't think it matters where or just a little bit under or something. come over there, just a sec. And employment you put erm where you were and what you did. Isn't it Wesley Road? No. Oh no Road. Yeah you you just Road you just put the address of the place where you were and then you put the position you held. I am, I am I'm just helping Louise. I'd rather you did your own! I'd rather you shut up and got on with it! Ha not really ooh my eye! What's Emma doing? Emma's messing around with it. Is she? What's she up to? I bet a million quid that get out the way ! God she's written down a massive great essay oh my God! It's alright I've got ages got 'till one o'clock, it's only ten past twelve handy, ha ha So where do you work, Sarah? Go on let us At in on it oh where did you? She's not that at the schools? Yeah you do each one that you took in the list and then do don't do the result if it's c or above otherwise you don't fit it, apparently that's what she said she sa do the result if it's good but don't bother if it's bad, or something. The whole point is G C S E's you see, get them even if you don't get c I know or above. and apparently they're changing them now anyway. I know so it's stupid They're changing it to more exams I mean, it changes to G C S E in the first place to get rid of having Exams. so many exams and have more course work and now they're complaining about cos it's a hundred per cent course work in English, they're complaining about that and they want to make it and a maximum thirty per cent course work within two years, or something something really stupid like that! They should change this course. No, but I reckon I was in the best year, sort of, for G C S E's this year and the year that's just gone, were the best years cos they they do all the . Can you do English language and literature G C E's or C S E's, not G C S E's. What are you talking about? That's with the olden days! They must be old! In the old, Liz, so did you do C S E's or G C S E's? That's what I thought Speckled white bits! I did G C S E's in the first year. Oh yeah cos I was a couple of years later than that, so I managed to, sort of, avoid the first year or so What the hell was going on! it was Yeah I bet nobody knew what they were doing Ooh I do like that picture. Your doing what what? Children's Liz comes instead of me. Oh yeah you mustn't forget that that was an experience that was if you just press enter then it goes down, that's fine like that. Sun med! Sun med Sun med it sounds like a orange juice drink or something drink sun med high in vitamin C Urgh, what have they got on there! It's probably Tabitha's rusks again which I've got all over me! How Samantha? No I can't remember how to do that, there was a way to do that, I thi You do, Oh my God! Black ninja! Get back! How did you get to that? Green needs to hold down which key before pressing the given function key? What! How do you sort that out. I'm going home, I ain't doing that! Ha! What? What's that you're doing? C V and you don't really wanna see it either. How many My Go ,wha how did you get to that anyway? Just did. We would like to order selection of music box She likes it!. from the following list . Ha ha stupid moron!put it on there like that! Yeah well I just did! What do you mean Yeah I was on the bus this morning oh Sorry? I got a later one half ten. Alright. You on it? Is that right? What time do you go home? Oh same as me. Ooh my God! Looks good mm! They were lessons. How's that? My parents . Ooh my God! Let me get let me get it done today what yeah how many references do we need? Two? Two Two? Yeah. My family's can I give that? Yeah . What are you applying for? What age group are you applying to work with? I'm gay! That's what I bet! What are you looking for cos it's gotta be linked to what you're applying for if you're applying If you're applying to work with three to five aged children then you write references It's that erm holiday thing holiday camp thing. Then do they do nurseries do they do nurseries? What age children are they then, yeah nursery or primary school cos you can get hold of different Yeah so you're infant school and you're primary school yeah From now on I'm gonna do my family. Well that's got nothing to do with it. Why? Little kids How old were they in the family? Yeah but you're not working looked after in a family, you're not applying for a job in a family, you're applying work in a children in a group. With with larger groups of children innit no but I can look after a baby. no but it's gotta be possibly, yeah but it's still like it's gotta be mixed with older children isn't it? And you're supposed to try and link it with bigger groups of children, so if you say you say you've got primary skills Have you Yeah! Alright then. I don't know how you got that on the list. I'm just ow! Oh dear! Then you've got to think of your references problem is the job that I'm applying for is working in the school and my reference for primary school is Redland School cos that's where I was I thought ooh yes that would be laugh if I apply for Redland School yeah great so it's gonna come under wor work experience and reference I don't know you can put No M C as a reference Oh! I don't know. Cuddling course tutor ! Do you mind if I put you as my referee. I don't think you have to do referee on there, you just have to have references, I think? I don't think she's that bothered. She doesn't bother asking for them anyway I don't know the name of er What? I don't know . I didn't know that, I thought I'd put down what, some of the people one of the babysit for as one of my references because I babysit her kids at primary school age and she's got a really funny surname it's like or something cos it's Dutch or something Yeah. or Finnish! I got some of that . You just write down any name it doesn't matter ! What? It won't change. What bit do you wanna delete? Just trying to delete that lost your place Urgh! No it kee keep going with the arrows and get it just behind the letter you wanna delete, keep going, keep going go keep going, keep going and again now delete, backspace backspace that one Oh. that's the one that you have to press keep going now press that's it. Right, now that anyway should be see ending Oh well. up there I want it. Yeah, then do the same that's it! Oh well I'm glad I can help! Hee hee hee! God is that how you spell ? Yeah. Where does it get it's name from anyway? I'm not sure. Oh Just seems like a bit of a weird name! This chair goes up and down when you sit on it is that computer free? I'm not getting anywhere my legs aren't long enough is this free, Dee, do you know? It'll do Ha ha ha ha it works! Please work this bit doesn't go anywhere Yes! Do we only have to put G C, G C, G C E's nothing else? Well if you've got any other qualifications you can put them I suppose I don't see why not erm Oops! Oh no not F ten what am I talking about, date of birth first where's that diagonal line? There. Er twenty four address I suppose I'd better put the house in there I bet I'm not gonna get this finished in time now. I found My address is so long! I hate it! mm mm mm mm mm Oh didn't put any commas in! Urgh! Ah! Oh my god! You were what, an accountant? No I Oh I thought you said you were an accountant. Oh no! I thought Dee! doesn't You have hidden talents! C that'll do I suppose, telephone 5 8 Is it spelt right? I dunno. How do you get your space up again? Hang on, what's that? straight from the bottom. And then backspace, I think, I'm no I'm not positive on that so don't take my word for it, you'll probably mess the whole thing up! Mm. You mean get that up? Yeah yeah. I think you press backspace so that'll just take it to the end and then if you press again no it's just gonna delete now it'll delete all that. I can't remember what it was now but I know there's a way to move it up again, I think oh unless you put it there and press backspace just above Where, there? the a then space above the a, cos at least then if it doesn't work it's not gonna delete anything go down again, that's it now backspace stupid thing! Oh I don't know I'm afraid Ooh!bit of a stupid thing anyway! Marital status. Argh! What have you done? I've done it again! Oh no, you managed t oh God! Oh my God ! I Oops oh I'm onto the wrong bit again! Education ha ooh I never know what the address of the stupid place is! Oh! Yeah I think you'll just have to wipe the whole thing out and do it again. No! Don't want to! Never mind Oh do me a favour! Oh I love the way everybody gets up and wanders out, we'll just wait here I think. Fire drill. Come on Shaun, what do you have to do? Fire bell Oh pain the backsi ! Come along children single file! Out you go! If my bag gets burnt in that bloody room upstairs somebody's having a laugh aren't they?have to take the mick! We'll get cold! So what is this about? No it's cold ! What a joke! Actually it's a bit of a unorganised chaos nobody knows what the heck they're doing! I don't smell anything the way ahead. Not being cold running across the corridor. I think we've got to go out there with the lot I think we've gotta be out there Bloody loud! I think we're there. Where the hell's everybody else? Oh there they are ooh ooh. We're here, don't worry we made it. Where are we supposed to be going ? In case it collapses onto me actually we should stand a little bit further away from the building. Couldn't we have a . Yeah then we all had to wander out of here. Why couldn't they do it in the summer when it's warm? It's too cold for this! I left my coat inside! I've left my computer programme going, God knows what it's gonna do I've only got half an hour to finish it! Ah no it's cold! Get on with it and let us back in It is a drill I suppose, is it? Mikila, what is that thing? That, that's my microphone Liz will explain. Doing a survey. I only a survey thing, and I'm supposed to have done about twenty tapes by tonight and I've done seven! What on? Conversation tape. Me having conversations with people . Have you done one on me? Yes, you're a pupil now. I swore a few times . Have you got that on tape? Probably! Amana's just sat on that chair with a so I didn't have anything to do Yes, I have a whole fire drill recorded on tape! Lucky, lucky ! Are you recording now? I am this is gonna give us all a laugh! Ooh ! Come then,karaoke karaoke time . Ooh it's gonna fall off! by anyone with anyone doo doo doodle doodle doo It's not unusual to go out with anyone da da da da without much love da da da da da da da da da da da da Starring Sarah and Deidre . It's not unusual da da da da day da da da . It's not unusual it happens every day da da da . Why can't this crazy love be mine I think I'm recording ah ah ah Yep look cos the little lights on Doo doo doo doo It's all down on tape now. Doo doo doo doo. I'm gonna take a recording of this I think Why did you er I can bring it in next week and play it really loud to the whole class I shall say this is Sarah and Dee where's Tina Turner then . So I'm not What happened to Tina Turner then, is she now a thing of the past? Yeah when I need you . Better than all the rest better than anyone . than all the rest better than anyone anyone I ever met . Come on I don't see smoke belting out the building, let us back in. Here they come back into school. Oh well we d didn't know if we were supposed to be congregating with rest of the people, or what so we just wandered we wandered down the hall Yeah and we couldn't see any smoke belting down the corridor so we thought well oh!give me my coat! My technicolour dream coat! Where's Louise? She can start us off on the aerobics lesson. . Oh Louise didn't even come out ! I think Louise and them went outside probably yeah, they've gone outside though Ah I was gonna say to you if you get us all going on some aerobics Yeah. get us all warm ! Oh! Oh let us back in! We've got now yeah It's cold! I was gonna say, we've got the hint, it's bloody cold, let us back in! I haven't got my coat or anything cos I left it upstairs. We've done it now. Yeah we know how it feels. Yes We know if it made any note of where we're meant to be going. At least, at least if it if least if there was a fire we'd be heated wouldn't we?standing here Yeah and getting warm any burnt alive by now. No I think they went out the side door, cos they were in the computer room with us and they sat there Louise goes, what's going on ? I said that. And they sat there on the computers and the woman said right everybody out, she's an old battleaxe! I can't believe it, she had a right go at us, we were just chatting, and she said keep the noise down! Why do they have two cuddling each other come over here. What two cuddling each other? Over there. Everybody out. oh I can't see but We can see you! never mind. Just move in a bit. Go on over there. Your bum knocked car ! Stupid time to come in the car park! I don't know what they're trying to do. Fire! There's a fire stay away from the building there's a fire she looked at me as well. Ah. Off we go Dee's going to lead us over there. Da da da da da da da da . Oh. Oh God ! Na na na na na . Quickly Dee ! I'm trying to keep myself warm da da da da da,by I singing warm songs ! Er urgh! No I don't wanna be sitting messing around with computers freezing my bum off! what a There goes the Volvo I the whole car park. Oh my God! like a whirlpool get a car out of here Oh! No. No. Come on! Come on! Come on! Come on! Come on! Come on! Come on ! They should they should have got us all lined up single file and alphabetical order, taking them in. Oh get out the way! Our school had it down to a tee. Come on! Come on! Come on! Come on ! At the nursery, that's right. Come on! Come on ! Come on ! She wants Do you wanna be in my gang, my gang,my gang Maybe you should stap tape your mouth closed yet! wanna be in my gang wanna be in my gang, my gang, my gang So have you finished your C V and you're just adding bits No. to it or something. Well no I did it last week and one of the references I couldn't remember the name of the woman, so I just put Mrs blank and I just left it so I thought I'd do it again cos there were a couple of bits I did wrong and a bit dodgy, so I though save me writing it I'll just do it all over again but it looks like I'm not gonna be able to now because we've brought out here for a piddling stupid fire drill! Urgh! Your allowed to go into the building now. Ah finally we're allowed in the class it's Where's Tab going? Tab you're not allowed to go too far. your room. I suppose I could move. Are you going back to now? Yeah go back this way ooh the emergency's over the emergency's over, everybody . Your going to go in? Yeah. We are. as well Yeah all we and good. Oh it wasn't that bad. Probably what a waste of time! My mum went to a karaoke last night. Did she? Where? I can't believe it in actual, yeah but there was a fight or something so they might not have it again Shall I put . Yes. I shall put No no no I should only put the erm the . Er Sept emb er er er yeah I can see you! Wanna be in my gang, my gang, my gang . nineteen eighty five I think you'd do leave the bits No you see when I put I put it up Ooh! Ooh I didn't want that! Oh yeah any other colours. What? Where's the J You know it's wrong. It's alright, I can two do that at least I don't have to Allow the qualifications erm I hope to G It alters the pages, we don't that C S E and don't you think it would be a good idea have you said in your letter that you worked for the the therapist? Do I have to? Ooh no! Right why erm don't you go comma say your teacher, or somebody like that, so it just shows that it's not a reference. Oh. And there were somehow you want t to get across the point in the . Mm. Cos you'll be working with children again, so I know what I'll do, I'll go back to just there erm where I've put that gotta try and remember everything I took now. Good yep, that's fine. Miss can you have a on a ? Geography ooh R E, mustn't forget R E my favourite! Do you wanna be in my gang, my gang How do you spell religious Liz? R E L I G R E L I G Yeah I've got R E L I G I O U S. I thought so! Now, am I waiting for these today or ? R E L I G O U S S they're going on me he Edu Is your the most valuable experience! Is your references your last thing? Work experience. I think references is last, yeah. Don't you dare do anything when I F ten. Press escape. But I wanna go back shall I go back and do alter the things I wanna alter? Press F nine Right, press F nine Yeah. and it takes you back right what else did I take I took nine things I always thought work experience. erm Haven't had any work experience. What about all the college all the placements that's all work experience. Oh Lord! English En English Language I hope they won't be writing to her in God! I don't think they do, this is just like a sample,, so we know what we're talking about and we don't. Church and Primary School no I'm not looking forward to going into French. French. erm holiday. maths I might has well put the full name mathematic s ooh mathematics even Do you wanna be in my gang, my gang No! What's it called? When will they where will they ask for a copy, maybe. Ba ba ba Hockey, Hockey! Biology Home Economics, yeah mm Econom ics and ooh yeah Do you wanna be in my gang my gang and a and a Look Mikey . That's a bit of a posh name for drama, isn't it? Drama and theatre arts, that's what I did at school erm No one asked about and urgh! This is Diana A Oh no! I've just done that, I've just stuck a space in! Well that's a bit silly, isn't it? Oh, I can't believe I did that, I stuck a space in it! Yeah, a bit like, yeah. Did you manage to get it back? No I didn't. Cos I did that last week and I got rid it and I can't remember how! Ah I did it! What did you do there? I don't know I just pressed the down yeah there was a space and I pressed the down and then I pressed backspace twice and it went back again ah I knew it was something to do with backspace. . No, ooh! Take your time. This is stu stupid right so don't press enter cos that'll give me a space. early, early in the morning, early thing This is a pain in the backside! And then after that I am B I am now currently at Chiltern. Ooh that's a nice one what's it like there anyway, any good? It's okay I mean it it, okay in the parts, but when you come to do a like essays and things about it's very helpful because of the Yeah I suppose in there anyway. yeah. I've all you spend your time doing, more than you spend the time with the kids, is cleaning two Have I got them wrong? one two three, four five six, seven eight nine, yeah Is it Chiltern what Chiltern nursery. I know hello! I think but are we not supposed to put I think those ones in, they're not very good. Yeah short space of time yeah I thought you then, I thought well I must be nice spoken polite That's that then. Yeah that's the Employment I've only had one job, that's sad. No erm has got to know. Employment yeah. Yeah employment is job an and work experience is placement catering Washer up! Ha yeah . erm No! oops! No! No, what am I doing! Erm you put the address, don't you, first and then you do the position held? E it's stopped No it's not capitals Oh God! How do you spell preparatory school, if you've got a prep school and it cou P R E P A R ooh I'm glad hang on, hang on, hang on, ah! P A R Yeah P R E R E P A R ooh ah I didn't get a capital! I like cooking, cleaning Ah! Are you getting there Lou? P R E Yeah P R E P A R yeah, hang on P A R Thank you wash A T A T O R Y. O R Y, thank you Liz. Wash. You now how to spell school? Badminton I think I can spell school! Bad min ton erm volleyball voll painfully slow, but never mind eye ball. Now so I on the Craythorn registered. Craythorn Craythorn volleyball. Craythorn Road,do I have to say Craythorn ? No, no, no, no, no What else do I like doing? Bowling. Windsurfing. I like bowling, ha, I got that in. Toboganning! Bowling. bungy jumping ! jumping ! Bowling. That was miming! Oh was it? I know I was trying to think of the word as well, I thought now what is it ? What do you do now when you do the what do you do then? Oh! I don't care if it's Craythorn it doesn't say I was with Craythorn Mikila what was it you said to do? Press escape. You have to move it down before I do believe. F two escape. Bowling Ooh Maggi's gone! erm what then? D, a q que cr cr I like I like anything ! I like You wanna put dance. What ballroom dancing? Erm That's your thing! Disco dancing It maybe Saturday night fever, night fever I like erm Erm swimming Craythorn I'm gonna do this really and stamp collecting coins! Stamp collecting! Whatever it is,otamy is there something otamy isn't it, stamp collecting? It's not lobotomy Mr Oh God! What on earth's all that cake I still got it Cam Dianne's wedding. How do you spell assistant? Is it a s i double s or Middy How do you spell what? Assistant. A double ss i s Alright, A double S I S T A N T. Yep. Yep ooh no I didn't put the date. One gone off them fabulous one. Emma Which printer did you block? G ooh! That one now works on there. Yes, but it like that top one erm two years this job nineteen eighty nine er eighteen pages. eighty nine Oh Christ! We've not gotta do all these work experiences have we? No I don't think it's in there Erm Hang on, back a bit, slow down Mic I don't think I Steady! for children. Ooh dear! Never mind. Miss Miss A. Yeah. Miss Complain text. Chaps! Ooh! I'm gonna put, put in. E. And you got, Mrs . Yep. I do like that name. Like take the details of her and so put in the bits on the dots. What? Next to them What you're studying? Yeah Yeah. So you have to start? Yeah. Yeah. Well it does hurt, but she needs to go . Ow! What's the matter with it? No she did it. It's just a sprain I'll be alright tomorrow. Sorry? We haven't gotta put all the dates for all our references in, no not references, all our work experience have we? I don't know. Good where was next . Ah Michael's Oh God! I've not gotta write all of this have I? A D I'd do that later Road Oops! Why they have to have such complicated names for these, Road Community Day Nursery. College yeah. Nur sery it's erm Who's printed there's out then? Those two have. Ooh have they got one? Brilliant! Yeah ah ah ah. A Road dee dee dee dee dee dee dee How do you spell Ingrid If it comes to memory, she's absolutely first class Perhaps, some Mrs people don't Mrs anyone. Now that th the the the the the the the e. You need to get your b's off the top. Oh Greek Literature. Bet that was fun? It was lovely actually,we all did was read stories nice little stories so So it was probably quite good then. Yeah mythical poems and it's quite I need to get my b's at the top F f, f, f,erm actually it's all it's quite nice, I mean there's a lot down there I think I need to do that again, anyway. The dee dee dee dee dee dee blank Grantham? B a Branxton Hello. Court Street. G C S E or did No do G C E? I did G C E thank you very much! or cos she's old! You see I've got it down again, I can't get it up I bet again! You can't get it up again. No. I can't remember what I did, I went I'll show you what I did I went Did I go to there? you usually hit return until there No, and then and that moves that along I can't remember what I did now, to get it Aha! Now go up, press up again and press backspace again Oh Ha! Oh it's getting there, anyway. Well it's getting there, slowly I'll just do it. I could, I could live with that. Street. At least you haven't got a massive great gap. But mustn't forget this. That's okay that'll th erm Ooh! going to go. It is in there! Shall I have a look? Mm ha er We are there We're there! That's it I think. Should be three. Oh I'm puffed Interests? puffed, puffed! What happened to references? I didn't have any references? Work experience, employment qualifications qualifications. Dunno then. Work experience interests. Interests I can't remember what I put for my interests, now. Did we do a . Right I don't want How do you spell favourite? I can never spell favourite It's f a v o u r i t e isn't it? No G. No G? No not in favourite! I know I didn't say that. Oh I see. favourite I'm off the wrong block! You use backspace backspace hockey I suppose you can call a ho ? Yes. Yes we are a hobby doing nothing! Oi! Shh! I think that's it alright but now I'd like a space between that Pitmans and the Oh! My God, no! Have you done it yet? No. I'd like a space there something for filing. should take along . T that makes sense, sort of, doesn't it?just about . No. No! Everything's going away. Oh no I've gotta do the erm thingeys things like yeah, well we managed to work it out last week so if I can remember and two Save it. Into r rest your work. load spelling Do it all again! Typing What else do I do? I do hardly anything else I'll say reading, cos that's a nice one. Erm say reading quite good and ha ha and how to write her local spot. Going er ah an account. Dancing I'll put dancing, cos you put dancing. . Now! Dare I say we've finished! I can't get my result from there thirteen and all I want is to type down there, cos that's all I do number pass which other mm It's gonna be Act ivities Mm? Why have we only got to do minus, what's in there? Do you know what I mean? Yeah and I want these two here like that No Oh no! you're pressing the wrong button there Ah you know. Anyway That's handy but my bum's hurting ow! Giving me a bum ache . Yeah that was fun! My idea of a great ti What was that? Oh dear! Put the microphone my side got it? I've got nothing to clip it onto yeah we had that problem last week. Come on. Go to Aunty Maggi she know's what she's doing. Go on then. Aha ha! It's not going I think it is. a carpet now as well so now what do I do, press enter? Yeah Oh yeah cos you still have to sort other bits out don't you? Yeah. A four page format it is. Yeah quality print. bottom Hang on, I just there. Number of copies, one. Hang on hang on, hang on, hang on Yeah Do you want sheet, no I won't press enter yet, can't do it now printing type escape to stop now it's alright, I'll wait On it's side at the top of the page and everything never did any computing. I only came down to cheat! Oh we well we enjoyed you being here, Maggi, we enjoyed your company I'm happy now that was much better than my the one I did last week. Oh no again! They'll just have to hang on a minute,. Well they'll just have to wait cos I'm not leaving my thingey in here printing! Blo setting it off again, what's the point! Fire! They're taking the mick, I'm sorry they are this is the last bit, the references that's it now keep going, keep going, oh it's stopped! Got it! Gonna rip it now you wait. Okay, so I'm going. Ah right oh no I'm panicking at the fuss It's just some joker walking round setting them all off! Yeah, it probably is. I don't think I've left anything in there have I? Oh Where do I go, that way or that way? You come out You're supposed to go out that way, Mikila. Yeah I know but we we're nearer our room up there anyway everybody else cheeky thing! Urgh!my thing was printing! my thing was printing! right in the middle of oh no. it printed out and I wasn't gonna leave it so I waited cos it was obviously some joker kidding about. Kathryn is ill by the way. Hey? Is she alright? Yeah she seems Bye yeah. Oh is she going home? Yeah. They were mine! Louise is gonna get shot soon! probably never gone out Oh God it's cold! I might go to Shepperton some time Can't I go and get my coat all I want We'll sit in your car, Maggi and Oh no! you can put the heating on Look can I go and get my pen. Where's Maggi? Don't tell me a mistake? Oh no! mistake. Aha go and get some Tippex. Who's that gave Well those things are so difficult to work out oh trying to get the li rid of the spaces there have that Pen . from me to you, Maggi keep it No forever the erm in the English Do we have any other problems? We're having good fun, they kept going with big spaces and couldn't get them up. No, no Oh it's driving me nuts! Big spaces and we couldn't get up and Have we sorted it we got. And the one you gave us. Mm. Well Yeah It is it's a bit difficult to work out what to do. It is Cos it worked with me I had them up straight away and all these boxes that aren't Ooh there goes the Oh I didn't touch those No not like that a Golf or something. Yeah. oh no a Golf. Yeah she's definitely a Golf person. Yeah. She's go I wonder what sort of driver she would be? Very calm and collected by all I dunno know shouting at everyone something, something dash. I always shout at everyone. Get out of my way. And I'd miss I shout at the car when I'm getting cut up No. I go, bloody car! Stupid gears! break down on me . My gear, the gears in my Mum's car are so dodgy it always cranks when you changes down to thir second if you don't get it Yeah mine do absolutely right and then a makes you and he thought You're all allowed to go in again yet. For how long. Thank God for that! How long for this time! They're gonna interrupt our lunch break again alright Emma will you wait just a second I'll come with you, I'll just and get my money? Er Maggi ! Are we going out a third time? Never mind. Hang on! I'll be down in a sec, cos Maggi's gone I I'll see you down there ooh! What? I'll sit on the wall Alright then. at that Made of piles ! Oops!? Well I think, she said she was going down the shops, so I said ah can you just wait just a sec, I'll go and get my wallet and I'll be down she said not to worry she'd got money anyway whe when I got there she bumped to Maggi and then you'd gone and then Going to Oxford? Yes I am the outcome of it all is that she's waiting on the wall, getting piles and I'm going to go down the shop with her. ? But I oh well we go yeah, we're going down there so Yep. So I'm not queuing up at the bakers . Yeah I know could you get me, I know this gonna sound a bit funny, but could you get me erm Vegetable samosas please. Not as funny as rusks! Vegetable samosas, right okay then what from that Londis one? Ah? That Londis one? If they have any samosas in there, I don't know. Alright I'll have a look around. Thank you. A what? What does she want? She wants some vegetable samosas she said I don't want meat ones, vegetable samosas. Ooh me knee! Ooh no ! What's the matter with your knee? Probably, I don't know actually it's really weird it keeps going it went once and I was playing hockey, it was really embarrassing I'd just played the ball I'm sure it's going up and down those stairs that do it. Mm but this was last year and I just cleared the ball and everybody ran out ran out and I suddenly collapsed in agony on the floor cos my knee just completely gave way and it was really painful and a minute later I stood up and it was fine, it didn't give me any more hassle for the rest of the day. Do you want a bit of chip oh me and Em must go and get some chips and curry sauce again an eat them in park one day Oh it's disgusting! She sat there chose the table Still better than our our ten pi er We'll have to go and look at all the blokes playing rugby again! Have you got that bloody thing on! I have got that bloody thing on! bloody thing on! Well cos I've done six tapes up until Monday cos at the weekend I did really well cos I got a couple done at youth club and a couple done at work I thought, yeah, I was doing really well but Monday I forgot to bring the spare batteries which was a bit divvy of me and I was gonna record it all during sewing Tuesday I went to placement When do you find out ? Blooming car! Never mind Tuesday I was at placement the whole time and we sort of well we do talk I fancy some but chips but they're fattening, aren't they? They are they the thing is I was just saying me and you will have to go and get some chips and curry sauce again and sit in Palma Park, you can choose a table where you can get a point of the globe! Nope we sat and le and the other day we got some chips, you know, me and Mikila and sat in the park And she insisted and I insisted on sitting on the table! on the chair. So that she could Where are we going now? see the blokes! Over there. yeah and so I could see the blokes and tell them that were crap at rugby! But they were some of the ones that we went Swanage with. Ooh! We're gonna get splattered in a minute. Am I gonna go or what? No you're not. Oh no now the lights are green and they're all gonna come acro o o o o . Just step into Emma you silly girl! You don't just step into the middle of the road , look at the all the cars coming! We'll go now okay. We're going ! Oh no it's . Emma next Thursday shall I . Next Thursday I'll be in my coffin! If you keep going on like this ,right ready let's run over the B M W ! No, no, no it's too dangerous ! Why not? He's going slow now ! bus lane's full. Well we're gonna go out ! in a hurry did that when we were at the town. One, two, three . Right, wait for that blue one. Wait! You gotta remember you keep looking and looking and all the way across the road. Right, what am I having for dinner? I don't know, I've gotta get Fiona some vegetable samosas, Tabs gone home hasn't she? Yeah. Yeah, she's ill. She was looking a bit unwell actually she shouldn't be driving in her condition! She shouldn't be but how else would she get home? Yeah she couldn't get home, otherwise. She could have her Mum I heard call her at home to make sure, if anything had happened, so Is that them? Yeah do want a bag? Well she said some she didn't say how many, she just said What does she want? some she want's a some vegetable samosas, thank you very much. What are they? There isn't Them. a price on them, how do I know how much Excuse me, what are they? Vegetable samosas . What is that? It's like spicy vegetables in a stuff in a in a case. that outer casing stuff. What type of case is it? Pastry type, sort of I might get one of those for my lunch, hold that. Well how much, find out how find out how much they are, and we cos I feel stupid! Excuse me Please pick between the lines . What are those? Vegetable samosas samosas Twenty eight. How much are the vegetable ones? forty forty eighty. Forty, are they Forty eight. vegetable ones? Yeah. Yep. I'll get her two then she did say some and they are quite big ooh excuse fingers Listen, I dunno twenty to the pound or something on erm yes two days ago and I've only got Yeah about five pence left! You spent it all. Yeah but I haven't bought any It's gone. clothes have I? Thank you. Can you get me one of those. Put it in that bag yeah, oh no Well you did yeah I know but this is I haven't got enough all of Fiona's money, it's separate. I quite fancied a prawn salad or a chicken, actually but they're quite expensive so I won't. Okay, thank you. Oh it's gonna take me half an hour to decide what I want now, I'm in that kind of mood! Mikila get me one out, how the bloody hell You lift the thing off and take it out! I might have peach and marig what? Peach and what? Where is it? It's peach and, where's the word? No pea Can't read it. There marakir or something. Marigo I dunno. Oh no I don't fa , alright then Mikila this is deadly peach and passion fruit serious. I know it is Emma buttermilk dessert Mikila! What? Wednesday after no Wednesday after playschool I said to you I can afford that jumper I've got twenty seven pound Yeah. well I had it, but I haven't got it on me you are never gonna believe What have you done with it? I didn't buy that jumper did I, Mikila, cos it's not very No, cos you didn't have it ooh that looks nice that looks absolutely nasty that does! Shall we be Mikila naughty,and Yeah then we both have same Mikila! me and her Mikila! against, we have different op I've squashed it ! Come on, let's go and pay. Shouldn't worry you we alright, I want more than a c ake Well get your . Well I don't know what else I want. Have we got time Oh God, the move them every time! Never find damn spoons! . Come to buy a little plastic spoon and they've already gone! They're usually down there on that rack. They're probably down there spoon, can you get rid of these. Oh no! Yum! What else was there? They're Carolines' So a bit touchy today, that's not straight They're Carolines' Do want a pack of ? I think they're down there. You go up that one, I'll go up this one They're down there down there in the plastic box plastic tupperware container on the bottom, I think but I'm probably wrong. No they're not here. Is that them there? Yeah Oh! Oh Only in that though. Well in that case you'll just have open it or is that open? Are they there, I think they've been er moved back to the same place. Oh there are Oh really! some spoons there, but they're in a bag. Okay. Get me one Maggi ? Oh no!that's my egg and it really does I've gotta have more to eat than this! Mikila, hurry up! I'm a growing girl I need my nutrition oh I know what I was gonna have. Go and get one of these thingeys that I've got. What? I don't want one of those thingeys, I don't wanna smell! Like you! Deary me! Oh and that's a shame innit, oh isn't it sweet. Do you want a bigger one, ha? No it's alright I don't care I've only got a little mouth. I believe that ! I will have a chicken sal oh no I won't have what shall I have Maggi? I dunno, just Shall I have potato salad or shall I have a prawn salad, or shall I have a chicken salad? I don't have the chicken salad Have the prawn that's the e , prawns twice as much. Have the chicken. So I'll have potato salad cos it's cheap and I'm a skin flint! I'm just making my choices Oh make me laugh! I might spend half an hour, choosing a drink now you realise! Oh look at the queue. I'm sorry Emma I truly am. No your not. Thank you. I know you ! Oh I haven't had a bounty for ages, no I don't need a bounty. You can have one? No well I quite fancy some silly string, have they got any silly string here? Snow spray, snow spray, silly string! Ha! It's only one o nine, I'm gonna get some out for me in the church, next week. Yeah. Definitely bring some of that in remind me won't you, next week to go and buy some silly string It's only got six calories Emma! in. Yeah! Thought I'd go and buy some silly string, next week, remind me. Why? I'm going to spray it over M C! . You're not! No I'm not. I was gonna say! I'm just going If she ever to make a mess with it. If she ever speaks to us again No . Don't she'll never forgive you! I know that's why I'm not, I'm I might over Miss . Yeah you can have a laugh with Miss I'll say ooh Miss ! Yeah. I'm sure I can arrange to meet Mrs somewhere as well. Ha ha! Accidentally bump into her. Caroline! What's her name, Caroline? D J Naga Is that strong enough? Thank you. D O yeah and ended up getting me a silly, puny, tiny little thing! Look stop moaning! Na na na na na na gotta pay for these separately, cos I'm a pain in the backside! Ooh! I've had enough now! Right that's three samosas in there to pay for with that What's going on on Monday? that hold them Maggi,that. Thank you. Seventy nine, please. There. Want small bags for the lot? No she'll manage don't mind, do you Maggi? Thank you. Thank you. Urgh! Thanks bye bye. Bye. Thank you very much Bye. Bye. bye, bye. Come on let's get back to the classroom Maggi Yes Don't hurry . I want to Oh thank you Maggi. You're such a honey, If you'd have been awake then we could have got,Emma! Deathwish ! His face ! Look on his face! I think you've pulled Emma! I love the way you do that Move it, little metro! . Not a If a car If a car is is hovering you step out in front and if he's glares at you you step back you step back And if he smiles at you but if he smiles you put th thumb up in the air then you can go. and you nod to him like I just did, like I just did. Like you just did and he cracks up like he just did looks highly amused by the whole thing as to how somebody could could be so , I felt really stupid, as to walk out in front of them. Yeah see that Basically that's That's life then. Life's a bitch until you die Oh God! And then you die then you die . Oh what wonderments has she got for us in printing today? I bet that's such fun! That was a bloody laugh last week, though everyone got in such mess ! Well I did! It wasn't a laugh! I still haven't managed to get all that paint out my nails look, I been scrubbing it everyday. It doesn't mark my nails. Mine's just come out of mine, today. You're just an unhygienic cow! I'm not because I was at work last week and they got I'm not, I'm not, I'm not I'm not, I'm not! I was work la last week and I erm I gotta scrub my nails after done everything anyway like every, like after I made the sandwiches, I scrub my nails after I've been washing up, scrub my nails so I was scrubbing them all day Saturday, last week and it still didn't come out. Do we believe her Maggi? No! No. I know my hygiene rules at work, I've got my dunno what it's called but it's a health and hygiene thingey certificate. So ner! Well I don't know what it's called, ha. Probably a bit of paper! I could bring it in it is. Forged . Hey, what time are you lot going to the ? No it's not, it's a nice big certificate thingey. Er about two o' clock? Alright, see you there wa wa! the fire alarm goes for the third time. When we get in there it goes ooh! I'm not moving! I'll hear It can go off bloody fire alarm goes off again I know what'll happen. I'm not moving! It'll go off when we're printing and accidentally ! Yeah. No cos it'll crack our artwork won't have that! Yeah Ooh my God! God what a commotion! We nearly got run over! Emma just tried to Emma nearly got run over! You caused chaos in the shop! Oh have you got chips and curry sauce? Can I have one chip, please? Yeah, There chips just a tiny bit well you see you don't do it with style the way me and Emma do take you to Palma sit on a bench eating them! Least I don't ! Yeah. in front of this car, yeah cos I was getting impatient and he looked at me and I . Have you got I dunno it was some It's just some mauve stuff! horrible colour stuff! She didn't even know what it was, she said what's one of them them? they look horrible! It's not from a chip shop it's from that Londis shop. Aren't they meant to be warm? They can be but that was in the fridge Emma it was in the fridge? I can't eat that, is it only vegetables? Yeah, vegetables. You're not a veggie are you, Emma? I'm really hungry today but I can't eat that! Oh I'm I think I'm a semi veggie I just eat meat when I fancy it. Is that mine? Yeah. You asked for a a few, so we didn't know how many you wanted. You just said ge get me some! You should have got me four! Only four,. Well you should have Yeah you said ge get me some that's what you said, so I thought some is more than one and we got you two. Oh God, I only wanted one! Got you two. Got you two, Fiona. . Well we didn't know! She'll want twenty pee, then. Mm. Have a bite . Look at the size of this spoon that Maggi got me! this one, it's smaller . No. I'll eat this . I've gobbed on this one already now. Ooh! Er could you pass me my bag please? The height of laziness here thank you. I don't think I'd get babysit for me I suppose? Yeah. and that would be You know for the third project, of provisional childcare, what about? Just put it right there, right in the middle so sing Fiona here's your chance to be discovered! Mhm. Today what? Mikila you got your tape on . Yeah,recording us. This is awful, right She's been recording us for an hour and there's me running the front . . Mm. It's all on tape! No I didn't but I'm sure I will, this afternoon. We'll have to listen! Ah ah ah ah ah ah oh oh oh oh Sort of singing is she? Oh me! This is the bit, like this this rubber. Just a bit. but I'll Haven't you never had them before? Yeah she'll start crying in a minute! Sarah! Urgh ! For God's Sake! You ooh ooh ooh! You've gotta eat it, not throw it all over the table! I just hope you're gonna clear that up? Will I fit back in? I oh bugger! What d'you say? I said bugger! Well that's a stupid thing to do then, isn't it Emma? Come rain or sunshine . Don't you have to have one? I normally have one. . They're a bit erm hot? No they're not hot I thought It's like pork pie Urgh! They're horrible! Vegetable samosas and scotch egg? Emma! As long as they're warm Yeah. I want some chips and sausage Ooh ooh Er barbecue. You'll have to see her 'till after Bloody gorgeous! What are we meant to write on these picture then? Dunno. Another day what you there? Yeah you write the, sort of, how long it took to do it and if it was if there was more one and what they said about it an and mess it up. There's seventy pictures there. It's more than I've got. How many have you got there? About that. About fifty forty, fifty. I've got that. I've got that. So I got about ten twenty five Mm. one hundred and twenty five. And you got a few bits that your I think I've got about thirty. and then pictures though What pictures? aren't they? I've hardly got any in cos when I left my nursery I got them all to do me one and when I left my school I got a load of them to do me one I didn't get many at the day nursery, but I got a handful. mine actually! I got quite good ones actually cos I got two children next to each other and a few years later I got them to do it again but I don't know if I can find them all. There actual Did you buy two samosas, then? Mm. Are they for you yeah? I meant for you only on one one enough . I didn't even know what they were! Ooh! Just have a little tiny bit. my craving. Is you craving satisfied? Yes it is. Good. Feel fine now. Don't want you craving all over Mr ! Thank you very much! Em ! Em. I think I'm gonna try and persuade my Mum to let me bring my camera in for the last day of term, I'm gonna get a bottle of from the shop that's on. Ooh ooh ooh If we go now Ha? Cos I did ea , by Monday I felt sick and I eat quite a lot at the weekend which was good, but Tuesday I start at placement and we, although like we talk, we don't have, like a, conversation we as well and there wasn't really anything to record, saying yesterday to record and Did you record here yesterday? and she's, what's that? Did you record here, yesterday? No something so no, sort of, start at lunchtime anyway so I couldn't record any lunchtime. No, in the morning we weren't doing a lot anyway, were we? No so there wasn't anything that I could record then and the woman's coming tonight, to pick them up And you've only done, how many? Seven. How many are you supposed to do? I've only done seven Well there's twenty tapes and I've gotta do as many as I can, I haven't done half of them yet, but if I could have them over the weekend I'd be able to do loads more cos I'm working on Saturday, I'm going out Saturday, I think I'm going out Sunday night and I can ta take it then and I'll be able to get another, like four or five tapes done. everyone thinks she's sat there what's she done to her head? It just depends where we're going cos I don't know what we're doing yet So I'd and the woman's coming round tonight so I'll just, sort of, say to her if I can keep it over the weekend I can do a lot more so otherwise I'll feel a bit bad How much are you getting paid for it? Twenty five pound voucher or something Dunno what the vouchers are for but that would be in my hand anyway Oh. whatever I suppose. You ought to get, a voucher for what? Don't know I would think that it's, she told me twenty five pounds so I thought it was gonna be like cash or something and then I read the thing that says twenty five pound voucher but it didn't say what for, it just says voucher knowing my luck it'll be book tokens! Lovely! Well I can still get a couple of Christmas presents with that anyway so it doesn't matter. Get Boots vouchers cos Mm. you can use them in Children's World can't you? Can you? Yes it's where I used mine. But I'd still be able to use them anyway, cos all them Boot Boots smellies and stuff so Yeah you can get records and that there as well Mm. can't you? I got from Boots. Emma did I tell you Joe, she's working at the Body Shop. I Children's World and I got I got books. Ah you know the Joe that was staying with us? She was working at the Body Shop part-time, she's back there three days working now or something. She started on Monday and Ha! apparently she doesn't know why they sacked her she said, they sacked apparently something to do with she'd been asking too many questions or something and but she That is cos to be really eager because she said erm that she'd asked the bloke about staying on permanently and everything and he said that it seemed the people who they were most impress impressed with after Christmas that can stay on permanently so we said on the end, you've gotta be really eager and everything so she apparently was asking loads of questions Yeah, Oh you can't sack her for that! because she asked loads of questions! That's what I thought I think that's out of order That doesn't matter! and that's . shop is supposed to make at home Yeah their employees. Yeah and that'll mean that's an unfair reason to give her! Not quite sure but I'm not Never going again. quite sure why and I don't know how long she's working there. Maybe there's more to it than that, you never know. Well she's supposed to be working there 'till Christmas anyway but You'd better learn to drive then. Quick five minute walking, you know I don't know, you see, I just heard that she'd been sacked and As long as you've got knickers on, it's alright. It's bloody Can't Hang on sing No he's not gonna he's not getting it We've got enough without him in it. Ah we stick together or something. I haven't heard that. It is te well it's a typical , you know. You know most boys have their own they use the it seems scruffy, but if , do you know what I mean? I I think tasty! Nice car! Who's pretty tasty ? This bloke they are trying to set me up with. Richard ! No, no not Cliff Richard,. So you're trying to set her up then? George Michael went out with it was really nice. Yeah. Really good. Ladies and gentlemen, Mr Elton John! Elton John! Oh it's noseless! He said it ooh where's my nose ! I reckon someone's Look my Dent. scratch on his nose. This has gone all wonkey, someone's moved it! Alison his nose as it was around there, they've gone a bit bumpy. Yeah. Mm. A bit, Oh God! Yeah but it doesn't matter. It looks really nice with handles. Yeah I thought I'd got all those bits out, but thank you. Ha ha ha ha! Don't tell everybody I said to that Yes they'll be probably be smashing even when bound to get a break off, they're bound to. What? The ears, these little ear bits. No they won't. Very today so contagious it's horrible! What is it Well what have you got? conjuctivitus. Ooh! Ah ! It's going round our nursery. I woke up yesterday morning, I couldn't open my eyes! At our day nursery. Urgh! So have you got like drops or something? Yeah, drops and this revolting cream that smells foul! Oh yeah under. Did Yes. Yeah. You look really lovely, as you've got bloodshot eyes and this yellow cream. . Oh you've Nice! Liner! And it's a lot, yesterday I was in a real state notice my eyes were just totally, gummed up, yuk! Actually they're probably . Wake up in the morning . That's right, right let's the brushes now, class. Well, are we painting them today? Yeah. Ooh! No, we're ! Yeah and stare at the . Now what you do Why not? I can't Alright? Yeah. You're going to paint them Can you keep still for a minute, Kim? I tipped something on them. You're gonna paint them exactly as you would if you were just doing it on paper alright? God! It's quite a strange thing to paint on because it's a very absorbent surface and what happens if you wa , those of you who want subtle colours, well that's fine cos you get very subtle colours if you want deep colours like black dark brown or a bright colour like bright red berries on the holly then we have to put varnish on alright? And it brings the colours up to really, really vibrant dense colours alright? But I suspect a lot of you would want to leave them with a matt finish, it's entirely up to you Anyway when you paint, like I say, it's just it's because it's porous it sucks the colour off the brush and er it immediately dries, so you can see, straight away, the colour it's gonna be when you then put the varnish on you use a sort of matt varnish and so it brings the colour up but it won't be shiny or a shine, which you're gonna choose like you might wanna matt varnish with this and shiny for the shell which ca it really brings the colour up, we won't get round to varnishing today erm and the other thing you can do, if you want erm a sort of a mottled effect you do pink in a base colour say Mikila wanted all greeny, bluey colours on that Yeah I do. oh well, there you go paint it all a fairly pale green and then rubbing on dried powder paint like, almost like using pastels Yeah I just want loads of different shades of green and blues Like using pastels, you just rub it on with your finger and get really subtle blend of there so, you can have it plain black and white or brilliant red or you know, very subtle, so you can get all sorts of paint effects on them okay? What I suggest you do is, sort of, give them all a base coat, you know, like do all this mid-brown, but darker brown on the shell okay? Black and white. Yeah, now Do we have to paint underneath the side? Well I think it's best to, yeah yeah, I mean o the best thing to do is actually lift it up and use a little bit of the underneath to try out the colours what colour's that going to be? I don't know I haven't decided. What colour's yours going to be,? Black pale brown underneath and brown edges I think grey might be quite nice, for the walls, but then rubbing other colours all over it, sort of you know, like mauvey and colours and blues. I'll do these two all over grey. Really burn my arm. Yes Try not to do it as you go, I mean, try to have a very definite idea in your mind what you want to do cos otherwise, you know, you start off, you've painted half of it grey and think oh don't like it like this bit! So try and decide, I mean, obviously a lot Brown. of them they're, you know Brown . you don't, you don't have to do it brown though, you know, I mean whatever colour you want. I want it bright. I'm If you wanna have a purple hedgehog, it's entirely up to you! No leave that one. Okay? Okay? Will these all stick back on? They all will stick back on, it's best to paint them first and then stick them on. Right I've gotta go and find some more of those, This isn't his tail he keeps standing on! I worked that out! It must be there Yeah it's there somewhere, it's just a bit too big to be Unless Emma's got it as well. Unless Emma's got it there. Yeah fine. Yeah. I know she could have. Yeah. What's yours gonna be, Eva? What colour? Just that colour on there, on the other one. How much ? Purple? Bright red! Oh yeah. Bright purple ! ! I can't do much, sort of, colouring, someone's taken . Well it's all black apart from that bit there's white. that will be white, yeah. You imagine like a penguin suit, aren't the wings? Different colours aren't they? No I thought they were all black No they're not are they? They're just Yeah. a piece here was white but you want to do I'm gonna do a ! colour in the eye, colour on the beak, colour on feet Yeah and the yellow little red buttons and stuff and the yellow. Yeah. just bring it out. shiny buttons, you can put on this silver our little red flower on the hat. Yeah I've got a little bit of silver and gold at home actually, but I didn't bring it in today Yeah. I should've done, but I think I'll do this like reds, and blacks and okay. whites an So decide your work before hand Yeah, that'll do. Brown. Okay? Right Right if you didn't pay attention there, I don't see any others from next door because the colour they can start with Mhm. do it like that you need a piece of paper and lots of water and I'll just go and get brushes . Where are they , in the corridor down there? Yeah. I don't know what colour to do it. We And I've lost my tape! Oh don't wanna We could dig around it. Not all I'll go . Bit of everything! Yeah but if you if you If you have the pale, I suppose. That one will look alright. It looks alright though. What do you want ink on? The tail gonna have to do the tail now. Well never mind, maybe I didn't think they had one. They've only got a little stub though haven't they? Yeah. Are you sure one of these isn't yours ? Don't erm don't That's a really nice man. ? Yeah today, running round I think a light green actually. Very pale I think. Actually that's a sort of a murky green. That'll do. Oh god I think that's gonna look really good. I wanna varnish it as well cos I Oh look at that red! Yeah. That's good actually. So red here colour. What do you think? Red here Yeah. Black and white Yeah. just there with the gold buttons. Yeah. Red dickie bow Yeah. White face do you think? Yeah. And then the rest of it black Black. with greens in the back. And you can, . Are you putting his hair up quite pale. I'm gonna do down there I'm gonna do a red Yeah. red stripe. Yeah. Cos that's gonna be red. Cos Yeah. Like his coat tails. No cos then the rest of that would have to be black wouldn't it? Do his wings. Yeah. oh I don't know I hope my friend's found her stuff. what? We went back to oh er my friend Nicola left her all stuff, big bag on the train. You're joking. No. And they've erm rang up London He's gone all funny. Who? Can you see it? Yeah. What all all, it's got white bits on? Yeah. Yeah that happened to mine as well, look. Yeah it's where the Probably just needed to soak in I suppose. cold now. Ah. You done it? Well where did you get that brush from then Emma. Found it. Where? What colours are you doing it Emm? Apparently you don't need much of that green, Fiona. Apparently it goes a long way. Ugh. That's really sort of splurched now. It's always the white that comes out splurchy isn't it? There you go. Have fun. Your hedgehog's gonna look really nice when it's coloured. In only wanna give this a mix. Who wants this? Anybody? My sister said Pat's turning gay. Pat? What, which programme are you in? Which programme are we in? She's turning lessie my sister reckons. Eastenders by the sounds of this. Are we talking about Eastenders? And Colin, Colin was gay as well wasn't he? Yes Colin and Barry Colin out of Colin out of Eastenders? Yeah she's gay. Ian's besotted with Hattie. Ian yeah or he's missing erm Cindy. One or the other. I think it's Hattie cos he keeps gawping at her. I don't know if he's sort of jealous of her and Stephen or what. Well he was the one who blooming put them together. Serves him right. Yeah I . He's too scared to get in another relationship but relationship he really likes her. Miss erm whatever her name is said that erm people have been in there. Little kids. kids actually playing in there. It's not on is it really? She said that's why it's got no spikes left. But look he's hardly got, he's hardly got any. in it? No. All round that side he's got bare bum. . I'm missing a paintbrush. It's not gonna come out like shiny is it? Only if you want it to. Oh. No I don't. Good. It's isn't it? It's shiny at the moment. If you want it shiny if you want it like erm If you want it to come out like this. Alright? Then you put the Yeah. No I don't. shiny varnish on it that brings the colour back out. Don't forget to do your nose. Can I paint over the eyes and then go over them again? Oh yes. Keep your brush wet. Sarah, have you got some water? do the wings a different colour or something. Sorry. Mm? Think I'm gonna do the wings a different colour. Have you got water there ? Yeah well keep it wet and then it'll sort of flow into any difficult areas. Don't try not to put your paint on too thick. Alright? Just working out how I'm gonna get this done. . Just working out how to paint the wings black. Yeah cos I was gonna, I was gonna do this like Oh I see you only want the wings black? As such really but I was gonna Alright. Well let's er let's draw it on then in pencil . Oh I like that colour. Bit bright isn't it? Put flowers all over them. Yeah You need to have a line to work to really don't you? What I was gonna do was the front here was gonna be red yeah? Yeah. Black and white. Yeah. And I was gonna carry and bring his coat to sort of like down there. I was gonna work out, how am I gonna get red to go over the black? So you want so all this is red? Yeah. Oh what was that that fell off? Like that. Yeah. So all that can be black and that can be red yeah? But where would you take the black ? Well all that His head's gonna be white. That wants to be black? Yeah black. I've never varnished any clay before. All I've done is use because we couldn't have any at school. gonna be black down to there? Yeah. But I'm doing his head in white. What the back of his head? No that's gonna be Well this wants to be red. Red yeah. Then there wants to be a white band like it's collar. See he doesn't really want much brown on him he just needs a coat. Don't like this colour now. Well I'm not putting it, I'm putting other colours on top of it. Oh that's alright then. Purple and that. That's red. That's black. That's yellow. Yellow. Do you see what I mean? Yeah. Unless I mean this hedgehog could have been done if I left it couldn't it? Okay? Yeah. That's black Okay? Yeah. And what colour's his hat gonna be? Probably red. Okay. black with a red band. If you like you could open one of those little wheels if it, especially a difficult one like yours Emma. It might be a good idea. I'll go and get you one. Thanks. Sorry did I get you? No it's alright. I just wiped it all over my . I was just about to say I expect you could really make a mess if you tried and then I realized I was covered in and I'd better shut up. As long as the fire alarms don't go off I don't mind. Oh twice Again. Well Wednesday when I was in, I teach up until five on a Wednesday and kept coming up and saying that all the lights were gonna go off. That the electricity board was doing some work so not to get the class started. Well no-one ever knew that the fire alarms were going off. No-one at all. I think someone was just taking the mickey and kept setting them off. Well they went off twice. I think they must have done Right. Well from here I can see all sorts of bits so I suggest if you get Yeah I know. Let's put erm a piece of paper How am I gonna ? on there and then you'll be able to sorry Emma I didn't hear what you said. How am I gonna paint under that black Very carefully without getting the red red and the red Well if you hold a piece of paper there. Yeah? Get a small piece of paper and hold there as you do it. Thing is every spike's gonna be changed a different colour anyway so. Yeah but you want to make sure you haven't got any under here. Right. Before you finish doing that just lift it up and paint in round under here look. You've got a Got a line. bare bottom. That's the sort of colour you want for the top of your isn't it? Yeah. Right. If you want to use another colour just check round and see what other people have got, alright? Cos it's pointless keep making up loads of paints when other people have already mixed the colour up. And share the colours. bits. As my children say. You must co-operate. Watching too much Sesame Street. Co-operation Is that from Sesame Street is it? Yeah. Oh right. I think I was probably watching too much Sesame Street as well. Oh. I'm getting his eyes. There we go. Right. How do I paint in there then? What do you Right. There and there and there and underneath. My frog is called Basil. get a small piece of paper What about the hedgehog? Harry isn't it? paint that side you see. And then it won't go on to this side. Are you with me? Yeah. Basil the tree frog. Okay? So you can get the brush in goes against the paper. Yeah but the thing is I'm sorry Emma it had to be done. Well you'll just very carefully. I mean if it's right at the back it doesn't matter if it's black or red. It's just gonna shadow anyway. Yeah. Okay? Oh my god This is not gonna be fun all his spikes. I'm just going to wash my brush. I think you ought to put flowers all over him. Daisies. Yeah why not? Lovely colour Big pink ones. Go for it. Orange. Why not? Be creative. Look at my hedgehog. He should be brown but he's not. Go on Eva. Be a daredevil. It's lucky it's not actually a boy now. I was gonna say if you had flowers on it it'd be a bit bit . Ooh. That's nice! Mm. Basil the tropical free free I keep saying, tree frog. He's gonna have some colours on top of them . Thing is I bet you the spikes that goes exactly next door to him I'll paint yellow. What colours are frog's nails Pinky. Pinky red You could have flowers all over your frog as well. We could have a real hippie parade couldn't we? Hippie frog. Oh no. I've got black on it. This is the last lesson this term isn't it? Is it? Yeah. Oh we've got next term haven't we? How many lessons have we got after term? Four I think. Emma. Can I use a bit of your glue? Just a teeny bit. Emma was that? What do you want? Can I have a tiny bit of your glue. You may. What are they to finish painting and do a bit Inside? Dark green? Do some Or pink or red. Er it depends on how much you want to make it stand out. I think I would probably do it dark green. Dark green, mm. Sort of colour Emma's that that colour without being altered is is fine. Yeah. Do it with a small brush. Alright. Or you know sludgy sort of colour like this I think I'm gonna do it dark green. This is gonna look well weird. I need a brush with a bend in it to get under here. Yeah. That's what I need too. I love this hippo. This is really . I love the shape of his legs. He's lost a tooth Has he? Ah! He's been to the dentist. Well you must stick it, you must stick it back in there. Right so let's have a go. This has got to be red. Yeah this is gonna be fun. It's gonna be like a jigsaw puzzle. Keep your brush wet Fiona and then the colour will sort of flow in there. He was nearly a dead hedgehog then because he nearly fell off the table. Yeah do him as an old hedgehog. We got a hippie hippo. An old hedgehog. What makes brown? Green and? Don't know. Don't know. You might as well just get a brown. No I want to make it. Green and yellow makes brown. Red and black. Not red and black. Red and black make brown as well don't they? Subtle colour. When they find out yours is broken though. What's broken? Quite, quite a few of them but I mean Caroline's blew up. Caroline's blew up . Poor old Caroline. He had a happy life though Caroline. Yeah. Met with a grisly end, but I don't think so actually Sarah. Yes I did as well. Yeah. I was choosing to ignore it. Right. I need to get under his No I can't get this bloody thing done. I don't care I'm just gonna paint it and go over it. I had enough . I just painted it and I'll go over it with the black. Does this paint smell of or is it my imagination. I haven't really smelt it yet Fiona. Yeah it does. Yours does. There you go. Oh it stinks. Oh no. No no no no no. Quick give it a mix if you don't mind. This is your white here look. No god no. Got me brush. You might as well use me paint. Only joking. put red in his mouth. Yeah but don't give him rubber lips. I'm gonna rub powder paint in all over it and see what happens. She didn't recognize her erm owl cos it had shrunk. Oh isn't it tiny? She remembered it as being bigger. Oh oh Oh it's really tiny isn't it. Oh it's really dainty. Oh right. What colour can I do now, brown? You can do whatever colour you want . Mine's a tropical free trog. Free trog. I've said it again. Free trog Where's the palette things or whatever you call them? In that cupboard over there that's open. This'll look quite nice when he's shiny though won't it? Yeah, I'm gonna do mine shiny. Frogs are wet aren't they? Mine's not. Mine's gonna be You gonna do yours brown then? I don't know. If I do him brown or put in white all round You can do all round there. You can put, do brown and put colours on the top or you can do him any colour and then put any colour on top. powder paint on the top. You can rub it in. Rub it in, yeah. brown and then I'll do all round his face white. Can I borrow your paintbrush ? Yeah all the paintbrushes are over here. You've got my little brush I want. Oh sorry. I might do this last actually the eyes and I'll go back and do them when they're dry. Do you want the black? Yeah. Okay that's got black Oh that's looking lovely. I'm gonna do the eyes when it's finished because the white went all splodgy cos I couldn't get the brush in even though I had a tiny brush. Right. paint in his nostrils? Yes. And I'm gonna paint red in his mouth as well. Now this. Where there's lines that just lends itself to having a dry paint rubbed down it. Yeah that's what I'm gonna have put on. I want to use that little bit of gold as well to just sort of Yeah. Shimmy shimmy shimmy. Shimmy shimmy gold. All the powder paints are in the cupboard next to the sink in that room. Right. Okay. Alright? Now careful as you pick the packets up because some of them are so old. Ugh! Now this is where you really must wet cos then it flows will not go green. Oh I found a . Let's do him green. You done any little fleas on it yet? No that's gotta go green cos this has gotta be green. You're gonna come on Saturday aren't you Michelle? Yeah I'm Thursday Friday and Saturday I've got it so it means that Er is that too big, that spike? What colour's frog's eyes, black? Last time Roger was outside waiting for me for an hour and a half Suppose so, yeah. I hope this stuff comes off. I've got it all over my jumper. Oh no what an arsehole! Painted those bits wrong. Right. Anybody stuck for a minute? That's it. Fat little cow. Oh that's really good. Let's have a look . Round the other way. Ah! Ah that's lovely. He's got red on his neck so What's the red gonna be? The red's gonna be there down the back. That one's gonna be white. Well is there anybody else who's mysteriously lost a piece of work. Who's left it in the And the red where? No idea. I really don't. I don't know at all. I don't know. She's buggered off again hasn't she? Oh she's coming back. Oh he looks brilliant Mikila. By the way, What? Oh Do you reckon No red. Really clash as well. Ooh! Red and purple! The examiner will think she's colour blind. Well she could be for all we know. Right no other mix ups. I thought you said she could be. I didn't say anyone. I said the examiner thought she could be. You said she. Yeah. She could be as in either. Could be a bloke Yeah I know he could but I I said she, I said either. Erm it's not working quite how I wanted it to but if I keep putting stuff on then I think the yellow's a bit strong. Yeah. I'll stick something over it and knock it This is just a mess now. I should have just done it green. State of it. It looks nice. I hate it. That's really good. Mm. The nails are too long to do this actually. Mm. Sometimes I wonder if he's cross-eyed or not. Maybe it just Oh crap. It's disgusting. . It's not. It's just a mess now. Mm I don't like it though. I know. I'll have the dragon and you have Does it wash off? No. Yeah well at least I'd get rid of it and then start again. And then just paint green over it. What time does this lesson end? Quarter past . Blimey. Who's got that brown colour? Have you Lise? Does that look cross-eyed to you from there? Let's have a look. Oh it's me then. Where is she? Quick Sarah. Mop it up bring her in. browns. pretend they're using brown. What time is it? Ten to three? Oh. Oh no I've just started a colour that I'll never ever be able to find again. What time do we finish? Yeah. Don't finish till quarter past Michelle. Don't panic. Twenty minutes yet. Panic when you've got five. I think it nice. I don't know. I think it looks just looks just just a mess now. Right. Are you absolutely sure there's nothing ? Anything else for Only my rabbit. Yeah, it's gone in. First thing in. Good. He's got a hole in him? Yeah. You sure? Well it better have cos it's right at the back of the kiln at the bottom and I don't What shall I put anything else on there? Cos I was gonna use colours but I don't know if it's going to or not now. Well I think it looks really nice. Tell you what I would do is mix some slightly different colour green By the way his fell out. Mm. that's a slightly lighter colour. What about his nostrils? Yeah I mean just a few different should you use a little bit of green powder paint. Alright? Yeah. Just add a little bit Right. There we are. If you don't like it you can wash it off and start again. Oh good. Oh there's one. What colour should that be? Which one? The white one. Blue. But the next one next door to that's blue. So I can't do it . Oh. Cos I say there's blue on it, oh god I can't be can't be any of them. Oh god! Can't you do like another colour? Brown. No. It's gotta be I'll have to change. Which one's going blue? That one's blue and I'll have to change that one won't I? That'll have to go red. How annoying. Has anybody any white powder paint? No. No? White, I've got white squeezey here. Yes. This one's had to have a transfer. There's a tiny bit in this cup here. What, white? Yeah. only wants a tiny bit. Just a tiny bit. Mikila's got some . Right so that's all the rest of your stuff's gone in the kiln now apart from Louise's other piece. So anything that hasn't been fired will be may be fired by the end of next week so it'll be ready for you at the beginning of next term. Okay? lesson anyway. Ah. That goes on there. Yeah I'm just saying that it will be ready next term. That's gotta be green. So's that. Right. Does that look okay? Mm. Though red is the the best colour to come up with the varnish. It really does come up . What, with the shiny varnish? No either. You don't have to erm I mean you could also only put varnish on certain bits of it. We've got a matt varnish I'm not having much luck painting round That's red. What colour's Keep your brush a little bit wetter . Oh that goes there. That's another one. This frog looks really nice Fiona. Fiona this looks really nice. I'll have to have a rest. My back's Yes. stupid, it's freckles. Wonderful. So gormless . Let's just have the er tiny brush a minute . He's a wide-mouthed frog . He likes Maltesers. Yeah that's brilliant It's such a shame Emma. Yeah but it still looks nice. Gotta get Got more character now. bit of brown just under there . Yeah I know. I'm going to do like right. We've got to have some here. Is that it now? Do you think? Apart from his other toenail. Mm. I think so. there's another one. Thank you. Getting the knack of these. There you go then. Thankyou. finish doing his toenails. Oh there's a splendid job. Wonderful. It looks so much nicer, painted doesn't it? Yeah, yeah. I'm gonna varnish it. shiny Are you a bit happier with it? Yeah. Yeah. When I glue these You didn't seem to like it very much before. No I didn't. I wanted it to come out When I glue these paint over it again if it's necessary Are you happier with him now? Mikila? What's that? You happier with him now? No. I was gonna say if you bring it in. Cos we're not supposed to have the strong glues and it's so much easier Little bit. Will superglue do it? Mm. I've got superglue at home. So what I suggest you do is Yeah. Cos he'll look better when he's got his spikes on him Yeah. and his varnish All of those work. I mean superglue is superglue is brilliant . We're not we're not supposed to have it in here. Oh. So I couldn't bring it in? Well yes, you could. I mean it's just like it's You know, obviously you're not going to stick each other to the Well I mean you might do. I don't know but That's the yellow one. Unless it's properly supervised at all times. Eh? I can put it back Finished? Oh let's see. Turn round. . That's sweet. I think the inside of the mouth wants to be a bit more contrast, don't you? Yeah. Let's have a look Kim. What do you think? Turn it round and show Maggie. I think the inside of the mouth ought to be a bit darker. the box is in the way . Don't you? Yeah. Bit darker. Let's have a look, Kimbo. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Looks like we've all decided. Decided for you. And also you've missed a bit. Right, come on. Somebody help me find these final spikes. That one's going yellow. Well . It just wants to look darker inside. That one can be blue. You need a little hand coming out and a little bubble saying help That could be green. Shall I do his dickie bow black or red? What are you doing to that green? Fiona are you using your green? What? Your green. Mm. I don't know. That one? Or what? No I'm using at the moment. What do you think Mikila? Dickie bow The dickie bow? Or grey. No. It's gotta be a bright colour. You want it bright. Is that powder? No. Purple. There's the powder paints there. Have you got the green you used to ? Just use that little bit of green on there look. On the edge of the saucer. Oh get your brush clean. Erm I don't doesn't want to be black. I don't think it wants to be red. It'll have to be green. Yeah. Bright green. Or yellow. Bright yellow. next door. Mm? The 's next to it. Right. It's got to be the green then. Green and green buttons. Yeah? That's red. Green buttons? Oh no. What've I done? Or black buttons perhaps, on the white shirt. I don't know. I'll see That's yellow. Okay do the green then. Then see what that looks like. Okay. I would use I would use that green . I should think that's quite nice. Yeah. too bright. I've run out of spikes. Look there's loads more in there. They're all too big. the ends off. Finished Yeah. Let's have a look. You can't really see it actually . That's well cute. The back leg nearest Emma. That one, looks as if it's never been painted I think. It Oh! That's nice. What's the matter? You want some red wool or something don't you? I'm gonna paint him in a bright colour Let's have a look. I'm gonna paint him in a really bright colour and then put the Oh it looks nice. Do you reckon that'll look alright, or do you think I should paint them brown? I don't like it like that though, so I dunno. I'm being fussy I know but Paint him a bright colour and then But it's just weird. I don't like it at all. If I paint a bright colour over the top of it then that'll go sort of weird won't it? Yeah. So I'll do it like that. I might use purple actually, I like the purple. As long as it doesn't go black. But I don't wanna use it . Well make a different orange. Bright orange. I'm gonna do a bright orange dragon. Let me go and put this back and then He's gonna get a complex that, that dragon . what I'm gonna do now. Erm Eva, can you pass me the persil please? Do you want this brush? Mikila? Yeah that's fine. Ooh yeah. That'll do. I'll just file them down a bit. Yeah it's quite runny actually. But What colour you doing it then? Purple. But I'm gonna do it over this so it'll sort of go funny Oops. Sorry. Oh dear. It's alright . Why don't you kind of dabble it on, Mikila? Yeah. Rather than sponge. You mean like that dabble it on? Yeah. Or a bit less? Yeah. Yeah. Cos then some of the other colours are gonna come through and I can put the little bit of gold on the top. Yeah. Okay? Okay, mm. Let me just er Yeah. Wipe that down there. I don't think these spikes belong on there at all. Mm? He's got a wobbly bottom. hedgehog. You gonna actually paint the icing white? Or is it Oh right. I was that yellow. That yellow. Yes. That white one there everybody. Too big. Stick it further down. It can be the centrepiece. Stick it further down so Well a lot of the spikes are Right. If you've finished or if you've finished for today. This paint I want it really really really well washed out of these brushes. It's erm very good covering powder, it actually stays in the brushes. So, give the brush a really good wash out, put it back into it's proper pointed shape. Alright? If you would please. When you're ready. Oh it's hotting up. be your own creative flower. Little Eva. an Eva flower. Oh hell. black? Yeah. red. Oh he's lovely. Well you can't say he's Let's have a look Mag. Are you var er shining him up? Yeah. Yeah. He'll look really sweet. I keep doing it wrong so I gave up and I'm just covering it with purple. Then I'm going to put lots of gold bits on. May I have some white paint please? Eva? Sorry. Do you think you could make it by half past? So as I can get done what we want to do. Oh yeah. Okay? It won't come out on his eyes. That's beautiful. Just had a bit of a catastrophe. All his spikes fell off So he's gotta be glued and and glue, they've all gotta be glued on him. Has he got a flower on it? Yeah. You could put it over that big scar thing on it. That big line. You could put a flower on it's nose to cover it up. Put it on it's bum. No it's had a bit of a fight hasn't it? It's a rough, tough hippo. Do you need any more black, Emma? Or have you got black there. Oh look at his eyes! They look really pooped. Let's have a look. drunken hedgehog then. Looks like you then doesn't it? Oh thanks! I know what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna go while it's wet. Now we've got about seven books out . We've got another one we haven't used yet and that what you gonna . So Pickwick Papers and . Got a new one? No. No. Give us any one then. Christmas Carol. Christmas Carol. Okay shh. Now do stop murmuring. You could've used you could've used Little Doris Who wrote Scrooge? Barnaby Rudge Martin Christmas Carol. Yeah I know I know I've read the one but there's a Christmas Carol called Scrooge in it? Yeah. Oh alright. Christmas Carol has a certain old miser in it. Scrooge. Scrooge. Okay good. Now looking round I prefer you to be in twos and threes for the job you're going to do. Erm I'm not saying you can't well what do I say. Erm can you is it possible to get twos rather threes. Can you sit We'll be in threes. Mm? We'll be in threes. Yeah alright. Shh. Okay now Neil we need your attention cos you you got a list of what you're going to do. Now. So what you're going to do is erm sounds complicated but once you start you'll see how it works. Now if you remember if you find in your book er you started just doing er a hundred er mini saga fifty words mini saga of David Copperfield okay? Most of you did roughed it out on the back and some very quick workers who got it back in the front. Yeah? Now if you leave can I suggest leave erm leave half a page empty if you haven't got it in the front yet. Don't go don't do any If you haven't copied it up yet leave half a page. If you want leave a page for some homework. Jenny what have you got to tell me? Okay well I'll give I'll give one back I've got them here. Now erm no if you so leave a say leave a page would be the easiest way to fill in your mini saga account of David Copperfield meeting his new father. If you haven't got it in already. Er some of you have got it in. I can see they've got it in. Erm put a heading er, The test of David Copperfield, but you're not doing the test you're making up the test. you know in the er first year with Miss I genuinely wrote this thing right. And they this paragraph okay. Once you'd done a new paragraph like they did like this blah blah blah in here. They she did a new paragraph like that and then she carried on like that. All the way. Yeah all the way down the page. So funny . what the paragraph was? No. Listen please. Erm each pair each pair no I haven't just listen. Can you listen er each pair of you now will get a job of doing this. Now listen cos I don't want to explain it more than once. I'm going to ask you to make up make up and write down four questions on the passage. Right? Now then er find the correct answers. You what you're going to do I'll explain briefly. You're going to make up a a test sheet each pair er you're going to cop you're going to rough it out in your book. Work out the answers for the test. Then you can put the test on a piece of paper just the questions and I'm going to give the piece of paper to somebody else to answer. So each you're going to test each other on this. Now how's it work. Finding correct answers. Now we start off I'll ask you I give you about ten minutes that's all it doesn't take long. First one an easy question. Now what I mean by an easy question something like What he where did he go Yes hang hang on . Somebody suggested an easy question was anybody would get right. Who was say where go on. Right which where did where did he spend his holiday. And the answer would be Yarmouth. Great Yarmouth or Yarmouth whatever it's called. Is it Great Yarmouth or Yarmouth. Yarmouth. Great Yarmouth. Yarmouth. And you'd get a mark. Okay that would be worth one mark . Yarmouth. You just Now and after this question and Sabrina you did and Andrea's . which means a sentence answer. Sentence answer two marks. A more difficult question or a difficult question sentence answer sentence question sentence length three marks three marks. Lastly lastly a longer question where the answer would have to be two and three sentences erm yes but don't tell everybody. Erm shh. Right I'm not giving you long to do this don't waste time. Now you've gotta make up four questions. The first one's easy. You some of you are already thinking of easy things to ask. Could be a one word answer. Question two the answer must be in a sentence. So if if you ask the question erm or if you ask the question who something something the answer would be a name the person who did this was so and so. The you've gotta you mark it you give full marks for a sentence answer. So when you mark somebody's test paper you don't just put the name and not the sentence you've gotta work out one mark out of two whatever. You work out a marking . Now the difficult the last one is a hard one in the sense that it'll ask the person to write a paragraph, several sentences. So it could you could ask a question like erm, What was the relationship like between David and his mother? Or you could ask a question like, What was the father? Or or some vague question like that er for which you must work out the answers. Now so what you're going to do you work together but I would prefer you in twos and threes I think third person's redundant. Why why don't erm why don't you two work together? Why not? Best friends. But I'm but I'm working with Yeah but if I I'll only get one test paper from all three of you won't I? Erm Yeah what's he on about? Okay well see how it goes. Right erm well actually you could work on your own if you want to. I'm getting short of test papers. So right here we go. Right will you you may work together to work out. Work out your questions and give the answers with a mark scheme. You can mark these in your book yeah. No you can do them at the front. Oh oh if it's gonna be rough put them at. Oh how rough is it gonna be. Rough notes at the back. Cos when you've worked out the questions you can put them at the front. Thank you. I just from here. D'ya want some more? No. I am. On you go ten minutes work out your four questions as per . Sir where shall I write the answers? Erm you put the answers under your question. Because the person won't see those. Er Jenny were you away on Monday? Have you got that on tape? That song by Silk? I do. Mind you all of them . Have you noticed that? You know how Ham is. D'ya know how Ham is? No. Sir who's Ham? Sir who's Ham? Is that a dog. No it's not. Ham is er Cos at the end it goes the dog. I know. Ham. There's a new dog a strange new dog in the kennel. Ham is the brother of Emily the older brother like a man. Er sorry what am I talking about. Ham is the brother of somebody like . Older man who's who's living with them in Emily's house. Okay? Yeah do write down the answers. That's going to add up to seven eight nine ten marks. Come quickly think of a decent question. If you work it out. But you must know How long was he there for? answer cos you're gonna mark No fortnight. Write in your book. my book isn't he. Who who's got it? I left it at home. got my other one. Sir Caroline hasn't got her book. So she can she write it in that one. What book? Her exercise book. Oh well hang on. I've got one of your's here. Oh it's finished. Well where's the new one? You've got it. The new one? Yeah. You marked it. I haven't got your new one I've got your old one. I can give you your old one back. Er you must you must be clear of what the right answer is. Because you're gonna mark some of these answers. Do we write the answers in the book sir. Yeah you can put your answer in the book. I'll give you a sheet of paper to copy I gave you my new one you know the yellow one. No I haven't oh is that your's? Yeah. That's Zoe's. That's not mine. There's another one. That's the only yellow one I've got. Seriously it's the only yellow one I've got . You know you know the one with the erm thingie work inside it? Yeah I know I know which yeah but I haven't got it. The only one I've got is Zoe's. It's only yellow book I've got. I know that because it wouldn't fit in the box. Oh have I got any books? But I don't have it either. No I certainly haven't got your yellow one. Er why haven't you got the other one? Eh? Well what are you doing, working out questions? Yeah. I'll give you some paper just to jot them down in cos you can cos you He's gone and lost my book. Really? He's gone and lost it. Right about five more minutes. You must have the answers written down. What was erm thingamajigs feelings towards his new dad? number four. Put number four and why was David worried. Mm. paragraph . Mm. Right when when I know but the se I'm gonna give you a piece of paper for the set. So everyone every everyone everyone should have a copy of the questions in their book just to tell what they've worked on. Yep. You can put it that's okay. Yes leave a page. Right we're also going to give a mark for spelling and presentation. Up to five marks. Have you past the middle page? Okay? So spelling and presentation Sir what's she gonna write in? Right I'll give her some paper in a minute. Er now I would suggest that if somebody does not make a single spelling mistake and it or or grammatically error and it's perfectly well presented give them full five marks okay. That's what I would suggest. Work out work out a scheme for spelling and presentation. So you might say one mistake perfectly presented four marks. Okay work out an allowance of up to five marks for spelling and punctuation. Write it in your mark scheme. Now what are you here for? Yes I I've tell her I've only got these now. Er what you asking me sorry? You're asking me a question? Hold on I'll give you some paper to make a note of them. What that's where he lives. That's his house that's his house. doesn't sound like a house does it? But that's the name that . Yeah. Here you are er make a copy Er when you're ready when you've worked out all the answers one person in the group should copy out the questions on like an exam sheet. Just the questions which you're gonna give to somebody else to mark. Now he's gonna blame me for the loss of my book. You know you know the one Don't don't pay for it. the poems inside there. I'm not gonna pay for it. hell. I I I thought you said you left it at home. No this one I left at home but the other one the yellow one he's got that one. Yeah. You hadn't written that one had you? Written what? What did you write in it? I wrote that this The mini saga. Yeah no not the mini saga . Yeah. No no no the one on the you know the first poem we did? Yeah yeah. If you're ready to copy your questions onto the sheet. Here you are put it on there. Have you got your questions read? Right could you make sure you've worked out what gets five marks and what's get what gets nought marks for spelling and presentations. Yes first question's easy. Do it this order yeah. marking scheme has to be like that? Yeah that's the marking scheme yeah. It's gonna add to fifteen marks altogether. marking scheme. Erm Fifteen. Fifteen yeah. Cos you've got a bonus of five marks for spelling and presentation. So if somebody writes brilliantly very neatly with no mistakes they might get five extra marks. And then you've gotta work out what gets nought. Are you mark knocking off one mark for each mistake? I'll leave it to you. But you must know a scheme. You can't mark without a scheme. You must make a scheme yeah. Otherwise it's not fair on the markist Are you ready to copy the questions out? You two ready to copy? You make up the scheme yeah. But it's on spelling and presentation. You were guessing . Yeah er how how much have you got room to do the oh right I'll your book now then. Erm it's . Right paper coming round for people who are ready to copy the questions out. Er you should give an instruction at the top of the sheet like an exam paper and I write it neatly and you put yeah five bonus marks goes five four three two one. You've gotta work out what you said . Well the questions one two three four. Oh you get one mark for the first one Yes that's right. You going to copy no you've got . Put the instructions at the top. Put test instructions. Read these questions carefully and write Well obviously You've gotta write down why. easy easier. Put the instruction at the top. Put your questions . Anyone else ready to copy the questions on their sheet before I ready to copy it out. Good here you are. Have you got one . Yes okay then I suggest Pardon what? Yeah. That was Sabrina by the way. She smells. Anyone else ready to copy the questions on the exam sheet? You're ready? His what? You know what me and are doing in maths. Right you know when sir comes up with his marking book right you know. Sometimes he walking round with his marking book and he holds it at an angle you know so you can see all the answers. Me and just sit there copying them. So funny. And he just sat I swear and then he's just sitting there Er are you going to anyone still not able to er think you're ready? Are you going to put write out the question . What's the what's the problem? So nice of you to tell me what you're writing. Right well just hang just hang on er oh Testing testing one two three testing. Cos I'm talking that's why. I am. You got a new book Yeah the yellow one. Eh? No. Yeah. He spat on my face once in the first year. He's disgusting. Oh yeah . Someone fancies him. Can't remember who it is. What are you doing? Five minutes finished the question sheets. So can you get on with it please? Sir? Just say that again please. What what d'ya think what does that tell you about the man . You know Sarah you know Sara she fancies . Really? How d'ya know? I have my contacts. I think it was Lynne that told me. Is it alright if I say something to her? No. Or is no one supposed to know? I don't know but you know. No just goes to her erm, Who d'ya fancy Sarah. Like that. Now how are we doing you've got the let's see oh you've all got this is one question sheet among the lot of you? Mhm. So you you will accept for number two just the two words you don't want a sentence? Okay so long as you know. You must know what you want. So if somebody just writes those two words they get two marks. You see. Cos if you said erm answer in complete sentences they obviously wouldn't get two marks you see? Are they supposed to get four marks for that Oh yes yes that's right. One two three four. Now er in the last sentence you've got five marks to give for spelling and punctuation. Right up to five marks. So work out roughly erm obviously something that's absolutely perfect and very very neat is probably worth five. What happens if it's perfect no mistakes but it's untidy knock one off or two off. Work out a rough way of what you're going to give for for Can we write the question for that one punctuation . Yeah I'm giving you a sheet to do it on now. Write the questions on the sheet and I'll give the sheet to write it out. Well it would be nice to have two copies on yours if that's alright. Because there's three of you. No you just do the questions. You just put test question one question two you just put question on here. Yeah. Okay? But could you do two copies between the four er three of you. Sir? Yes. When we've finished it are you gonna give And you will mark it yeah. Yes right okay. Er five minutes or so everyone should've written out their questions . Are you ready Freda? Can you have you copied the question paper? Oh you need a sheet of paper right. Er tell you what what we're going to do. You're going to write out the questions and I'm going to give your questions to another person and then you're going to get it back to mark it. You're gonna be teachers . You can put your name on . Erm are you ready to. I'm getting two copies there. Here you are could you make up your er put test put instructions read the passage carefully and answer the questions. God you know when I first me you Sabrina I thought you were a right swot. You know when you got ten out of ten in history I still remember that. Where did he live? Yarmouth. No where did he live? Any more questions question one two three four. You can look in the book. Are you supposed to are we all supposed to write this out?some music? Nothing interesting's happened. Let's hear what you said. I can hear to now. No I haven't. God you can make enough noise. Yeah of course. Can I have another one. Thanks. Don't give her any she's smelly. She is. Oi get off. Yes I am. let go. I am allowed a Walkman actually. It's for my ears cos I can't really hear properly. It's true. Eh? Yeah. Mm they're nice. How much are they? Twenty P. Twenty five P in Tesco. Oh. It isn't Wednesday today. No but rounders is on Wednesday. Alright. What other flavours have you got? I don't know strawberry I think. Can I have strawberry? Alright. They're all red colour. Mm mm. Is that nice? Very. Oh I'm allowed. I'm allowed. Yes I am I am. Oh you can ask Mr cos erm like I have to record the stuff like what people say. I taped you while you were in the toilet the other day. What. Was I in the toilet? Yeah. When? You were with Anna. Anna? Yeah. In the toilet when I was with Lynne. No no no I wanna listen to the tape. Oh right. I don't know that part either. at the end and there's Well mine's better than yours. No it's not. the best. See Caroline. I know the words to that. How does it go? I expect it can hear this. .Hello. What? Why d'ya have those on? Because. You can't hear the teacher. Sir? isn't here. Sir? You know this Walk I'm allowed to have this Walkman with me alright. No it's cos I've got done by the other teachers before. Where's ? Oi how come I've still got mine? I've still got mine. You know why? You had those and you didn't hear what I said. Oh dear. If you start talking can I borrow them? Mm? What? Cause? I can hear you anyway. No it's a thing this Norwegian thing. I've to record all these voices for ten tapes. I I don't really do it I just listen to music. Can I hear it? Borrow it? Mr . Hello. Can hear it. Ah because you're not in Mr 's class. No if you wanted to do it you volunteered that's all. Robin. Robin. Oh a little respect Oh right now I'm just taping it. In English I was I was just listening to music. Eh? What in English? Erm it was just like a . You know I I tape all these different things off the C Ds. Yeah I've got several on me. Yeah. I know. Oh yeah. Never mind he can't do anything to me then can he? Got plenty to do. We are now in a maths lesson. by the way. And that's Mr . And this is . Oh did I tell you I've got the tape. I know you told me. Have you seen it? I'm not gonna give to you anyway. I don't want it anyway. Good. Good. I'm leaving this school. When? The end of summer. Yeah good. Shut up. One minute Luke. Oh right. I saw I haven't even got . Oh no I forgot my angle measure. some of you will be joining the people that are coming back . Cos you're not doing any work today. Well Mark you'll have to make it up to some other time. Like the Friday we break up for half term. Have you got an angle measure? Yeah. Thanks. I know. You're a naughty girl you know that. You're very very naughty. a hundred kilometres from Douglas on a bearing of O five. O five hello hello can you hear me? Just have to make sure it's working. Are you going to wear it in P E? Imagine imagine having in your earhole. It dropped once d'ya know that? What this? Mm. Probably ruined my No no luckily it was still working. When it wasn't working I was going, Oh my god. You know all this strange language Mm I know. How far is it? Douglas to the east of Dublin. Caroline? No I didn't. You've got it . There's fifty five right? Okay? Douglas to the east of Dublin. I can't even remember how I did this yesterday. How did you do that? What? That. Oh what? That. That? If you've got I you've got that yeah? Oh right I'm sorry okay . Right alright. Douglas to the east of Dublin. Sir d'ya have to round it up? Yes well round it to what? As as you think is needed. Two point five. One hundred two hundred two hundred and fifty. Why have you got that? I didn't that's not what I got. different. Mm it should be all the same. What did you get then? Look. You haven't even done the line in there. So I know which way it goes look. What's your scale? Every one hundred every erm centimetre You've gotta change you I so thick you know what I've done? Just a minute. Every two erm is that that's one one fifty Cos that means you've done this wrong then. No I haven't. Yeah because look how big mine is. All every two centimetres and how many hundred is that? Hundred and oh god. It's so small you could change your scale. I changed my scale to this one. It would be better if you changed yours. My one's two fifty. What d'ya think you're doing? I mean one hundred and fifty. Have you got one hundred and fifty Oi Luke. Yeah? You know for number six A? What d'ya get? I haven't done it yet. What d'ya get? Derek? Have you done number have you done number six A? Er no nearly. have you done number six A? What did you get? Oi Daniel? What'd you get for number six A? What did you get? You haven't done it? Sir you know for number six A? Six A yes. Yeah what was your answer? What was yours? One fifty. No. It's wrong? I made it one twenty three. Oh that's not what I got. Maybe you've drawn this wrong then. I haven't. Well check it again then. Shut up. Every centimetres to a hundred kilometres. Right here's Dublin. Right that's Dublin. Boat leaves Dublin and sails one hundred a fifty kilometres and the variant is O point five. Can I borrow this? Fifty five there's fifty five alright? Okay? One hundred and fifty kilometres Hundred and fifty Yeah, one minute. Right up to me and said you were really good look right? And you go thank you. And then we go to him, Have you got a girlfriend? And erm he goes, Yeah. And then yeah right . She is so funny she cracked me up. Oh dear yeah right. you know yesterday she was asking you have you got a a partner have you got a partner? Mm? And you go, You'll be her partner . When? I never said I would be her partner. Okay well that's what she'll try and get at you. And then as soon as. No she came up to me came up to me and she goes, Erm have you got a partner. And I go, No, like that you know. And I don't really care whose partner I am. She didn't ask if she wanted to be my partner. Well she said she asked I don't know. just came up to me and said erm, Can I be your partner? And that was it. I never she never ask me. No no not like that. I mean next minute you're with them. No it's not that still thinks she is. I mean you know. At at that time I thought Sabrina was a pal. Next Tuesday next Tuesday I'll be giving you a work sheet so you can leave those books behind today. A work sheet to go through and then Wednesday next you'll be having end of tests. I mean one minute she says Sabrina's er a bitch and the next minute she wants to sit next to her. In what? In art. She didn't want to sit No she came up to and she said can I sit on the end of the table. Like that. That's because I told her what they said to me in erm erm What did they say to you? They were just going, Oh why why isn't it me? Yeah but she's my best friend. Why did you want to sit there? I don't wanna sit there okay. I was trying to sit where I normally sit. Why can't you sit where you normally sit? You take them I took them No. You take yours okay? I'm always nice I'm not waiting for you now. We was at library with my friend and he mum and her sister yes? Mm. What? Come here. You that Luke titchy Luke in the fourth year? No? Small Luke yeah him. Well him and that guy that I was talking about the one with the job. Yeah. I saw him. And I I had to walk past cos everyone else moved away. So I had to go past him and I went past him and my friend gave Why don't they like James? Eh? No no they went the other way I they were walking that way I was walking along the grass yeah. And and they and I went past James and my friend started laughing At James? I don't know why they started laughing and she started laughing and her laughing's like Who you waiting for? Sabrina and erm what you call her that girl Amy. Oh I'm going down cheerio. Bye. recording conversation? Yeah. What you in? Erm Oh right. I thought you were in this bit. No I'm one above you. Oh below you. Who you waiting for? Sabrina and Amy. How much longer d'ya have to do that? ten tapes. How many tapes . Ten. Ten? Oh it's not music. See as you're talking to me right now I can actually hear to here. Oh god. Well I noticed. Noticed what? Erm that girl's legs. The curly haired one. No my legs are quite . Who said that? No one. Oh your legs are not Yeah. You know that gir girl with ? Yeah. The one in the second year. No. Oh. What? Erm you know the one in the second year? There's this girl in the second year this black girl and she's got and her name's cousin got quite a lot of Yeah. And erm you know I was wondering if my legs looked like hers. keep talking. Hello. No I can hear I can hear erm Caroline but I can't hear you. I can hear myself No it it'll probably be picked up. Eh? You you'll probably I'll probably pick it up on the microphone. Give me the microphone let me it out. Hello. Hello everyone It's a tape recorder. Just say hello. Hello. This is Antonio by the way. She's quite smelly and she's got a red scalp. Shut up Caroline Oh it's just a thing we're doing for these Norweigy people. Still haven't seen him I wanna give it to him. Is that on? Yeah right now. Hello this is Antonio again. Caroline's got nice hair okay? Alright. No? You can actually hear your voice. I can't. You should be. Speak. Why? Hi Caroline. Yeah I can hear you. Can you? How come I can hear you? On this? Oh wait a minute. Oh yeah. See? Oh it's horrible. Come on Kim. Oh I thought you were Kim. Dum-do-be-do-dum-dum Hello. Are you recording this? Yeah. Oh hello Caroline. Hello. Have an interview with Caroline Hello Caroline. Pardon me. That was very nice. Now we're gonna have Suzanne and Caroline singing. The very first time I saw you around I only said hello and I said hi. I knew right then you were the one that I was caught up in physical objection but to my satisfaction baby you were more than just a phase. in love again. I will be sure that I will be sure of that like you No no when when I go, My friends. You go, Someone to love . No let's sing let's sing erm, Take That. What was it erm and when I open my eyes. Baby why can't I wake up with you Why can't I wake up with you That was a bit out of tune. That was Suzanne trying to sing. Does anyone else wanna sing? . Okay let's sing something else. I don't really need to look very much but I . I don't wanna have to go where you don't follow. I've been holding back again this passion. Very good. No what else is there? Let's sing erm Dum-do-be- do-dum-dum. Cumma-cumma-dum-do-be-do-dum . And Kim. Kim here. Hello everybody. Okay this is . Now we're going over to the tuck shop Go on Natalie sing something. I'm not singing I can't sing. Right let's see. Going over to the tuck shop because Kim wants to buy something. Kim wants to buy something. Erm I'm gonna be a model and all of you lot are gonna want my money. She wishes on her Me and Emma we're gonna be modelling together. After she's had the breast implant. I've just seen Let's have a look . Now we're going around to see the boy's we've got the love of my life. He is so gorgeous. I'm not gonna say his name. Well you probably know it. But . Oh here comes Caroline. You can guarantee that over during the five ten fifteen years ten thousand ozone molecules are going to be taken up discarded and left. And what happens to the little oxygens once they're discarded is that they don't go back and join an oxygen molecule. What they actually do is the two independent ones join together and instead of have separate Os you get O two again. So all the O threes have been chopped down and you get O twos forming. You'll think of it again in a minute. Sir is it possible to Right this is extremely easy to reduce . to reduce the Have you got red? Is that a pencil? To repair damage that's been done would take Your darkest one dark the the darkest. That's pink Kevin. Here we are. Is that does that look like red to you? Give me that red. The red. The red one. Shh oi. Let's our conversation . I really don't mind people talking about ozone message about pencils and being able to . What is it ? Nobody knows. Billions. Billions and billions. Sir? Sir what happens to them again when they're discard they're all . When they're discarded the single O atoms doesn't go and join the O twos to make ozone again it just goes another single O and then when . Well why can't they find . Cos it's very difficult no two is is very possessive Got a red. doesn't like to share itself Colour pencil. around. It just stays together. You're making it up sir story. Pardon? You making that up? No. It's Look. it will do eventually but it's a very . Does everybody Sir are you gonna write any more? Did he say you should draw that? Well Just about to have a go at you. No you. Sabrina? Can I borrow your thingamajig? I don't know what thingamajig is. You know the thanks. I wasn't. You were. That was so funny what said yesterday. She is so She is so rude I swear. Mm that's so good Rich. Wish I could draw like you. Finish drawing please. Has everybody finished Yeah. There's one crummy person over here who hasn't. Surface. The one with the surface at the end. I like that song don't you? God that's a messy work. You colour like my sister does. Right as far as that writing see if I want you to remind me that's where we're up to next lesson and I shall give you a few more notes on that to explain about how it happens ten thousand times. What I'd like you to do before next Wednesday as your homework is make sure that all the work previous to this on the acid rain is complete and shh quiet please. And the sheet that you're on you complete that sheet. Make sure it's copied up make sure all the sheets that you've written on are stuck into your book. Now can you pack your things up please. In what lesson? Why? Why d'ya forget it? Oh well that's a bit sick isn't it? Yeah well how d'ya know I don't need it? I won't be seeing you next time and I need it for break. Hello hello. Caroline? Have any erm cos I'm going I'm I've got an audition. Will you meet me in the drama studio? Drama studio? Yes I've got an an audition. Move on please Caroline. Come on you're always going off to talk to people. No it's just that like Robin wanted the headphone cos he needs them. Is that mine? No it's mine. That is mine. Gone no. I gave my last one to didn't I ? Yeah. How does that look? Rubbish. It looks looks quite good actually. Erm shh I'll expect everyone Stop following me. Get lost Kevin why would I wanna follow you? You're a cheat. You need a slap d'ya know that? Come and slap me then. You've got a hard punch. Just cos I beat him in a race. And I'm slow I'm slow. You had to cheat I I could go faster than Anton. And I beat you. So that means I'm faster than Anton and you. If you say so. Where's your best friend Podge? My dad's picking you up yeah? She's my mum. I'll meet you in his car. Why why is your dad picking him up? Shut up. We're back in our classroom now and erm Anton We're back in our classroom now and I expect that we're Are we in here all the time now sir? Yeah and I'm in here all the time yeah. Sir can we open all the top windows? No you can't you can't. Right we're gonna start with B. that I'm gonna do in . And the next person who's still talking when no you're not. If getting out of my class now I'm going to And then get indigestion. And then and and all that I think you can start off by having . Yes Sir have you got our books? Right get out of my class I told you to stop interrupting. Get out of my class. Stand I'll come and have a word with you in a minute. Get outside. Anyone else interrupting when I'm speaking . Right now listen and listen carefully. Don't fiddle with that please. I've got some books for you people. I have marked the exercise on the verb . This is your first this is your first . Now the people who did the exercise did it quite well. I was quite pleased with it. Erm there were a couple of people who got all the questions correct. There were one or two that er had which was good as well. There were one or two that were that I think were a little bit careless and didn't quite get the construction correct for them. But there were a few people. I wouldn't be smiling cos you're one of them. You didn't do the work at all and didn't give me the book either. No don't look at him, you. I've done the work sir Well I don't I don't seem to have your book with me then. Right now there were quite there were a few people who gave me their books There were a few people who who gave me their books but I mean Erm this was the first homework I'd given you actually that er that I'd you know given so I would like to see an improvement in this performance please. I will give back give back the books that have been signed and I want you in the the section of I just want to point out one or two things before we go on to the next . Right erm oh yes one other thing that I'd like to mention. The the exercise of course was out of eight because I gave I gave you to do asking the questions to do which provided an answer. If you put down the example I I actually marked the example but then I realized going back through the book that obviously the example was given for you there anyway. So there was no point in marking. So as the result it will only be out of eight not out of ten. Right now as I give out the books I'll want you . Anyone else And I'll just give Right Caroline. Yeah god. Eh? Of course I did. Well what did you get? You didn't even mark it. It is you've put homework. What's that? There's my homework. Right Kevin Gareth you too. But er I can't how well you have done it. have I got your exercise book? Yeah. Sir? D'ya mark your Pardon? Is that wrong? Yeah it should be . D'ya get no marks for it? Oh right. I couldn't find you book actually with me in my I Pardon? I gave it to you in room eighty two. In room eighty two. Right I'll just mark it here. Because I missed I hadn't seen it actually in my bag. careful with the spelling of . It should be with an accent and without an S. is correct. I'll have to give you a mark off for that. Seven and a half. Right er six and a half. Right yeah. Yippee. Right please. If you could turn to page if you could turn to page nine I think it is. I just want to yeah page nine cos I want to . Right turn to page Dunno. I mean I might I might do. You know. I really excit exciting about this thing you know and I wanna I wanna share it with someone like Like me. No but I'm I know but you're not in my class though. It would be funny if we were. You have Yeah exactly. Erm no but I'm not Well I think you should try to talk to them it's not fair otherwise. Mm. Cos I mean I don't they wanna be cut out or anything like that. Mm. By the way you've put E I the wrong way round. Mm. No I before E. Oh that it right. No it's wrong it's upside down that's why. Oh right. Cos these are better than the ones Okay. you need just some extra ones I know those those ones they all came in a packet. So we open them and put So these are new? Yeah. Yeah. But I'm giving you four extra and taking these two out. Okay. That should be alright. Yeah. You can use up loads of tapes. Listen this is your favourite hobby talking. Mm. If we recorded what you said last night in P E. How's your mother's ship. I know that would be funny. How's your mother's ship. Right time's getting on you've got ten minutes Okay. so over the next five minutes sort it out. Sorry. isn't it? Mm. One minute. I'm gonna see what You're just lining that cos it's yeah. Erm library. Isn't that each tape you use there tape one tape two? No no no. Oh right . person. What people everyone that you've spoken to? Mm. I see. Got to see how we go on really. Cos I don't think that's right. It is. You started wrong. I didn't that's library. Yeah library. I put A I said A . oh did you? Oh hiya. What you doing here? Go where? Yeah. Who's been hit? Mr . Oh. Are you meant to be here or you just ? Yeah . We're doing this tape recording. Oh right the conversation thing. Yeah. Oh gosh I didn't know where any of you were. We told I told Zoe to tell him. Honestly she's so unreliable that girl. Honestly. Don't swear. Oh dear. That means I'll have to carry this around with me while I'm talking. You'll have Mark on it. You'll have everything Mark on it. Yeah but that's just like your school bag you can have with you. Mm. Isn't it? I mean you're not exactly gonna get out of well you can read on the bus and train and that. sign everything. Yeah. I know. I was erm have you got any good books horror books? No. I've just got a Christopher book. I could lend it to you but got it at the moment you know. Oh er. You know. I want to get it back off her but I don't want to be a bitch you know. So I've just left it until she's finished with it. She's given Sophie. Oh my god I'm gonna kill her. I bet she did. You know I've got this feeling she had. Yeah. I've got this feeling that she has given it to Sophie She wouldn't do that would she? She would. Even she wanted me to get erm Sophie. Where's the other white is it Here. Scribble it proper properly. It's probably a little high up. Okay. Okay? So try . Okay. Right down there. Okay yeah. That's my badge I can't put it on. You'll have to take off your jumper then. I could put it in there. You can't have it underneath your your tie or underneath your jacket I'm afraid. Although it It's gotta be clear. But you'll hear the the strap against it. Oh right. Oh I see yeah. They are good aren't they? It's extremely good isn't it? Where d'ya buy those? Separately? No they came with With the with the little Well I'd like to have one of these. Yeah. I'm gonna buy them. I beg your pardon. don't say that again. Did you hear that? Four hundred pounds. Four hundred pounds Walkman What for that? No for the whole Walkman. Four hundred pounds. Really? If it was stolen from a house. Oh right. I don't know how much. We've got the cheap model. I know. That is my Game Boy four times over and even yeah four and a half times over . That's that's that's three time my erm Super Nintendo. I could sell my Game Boy. I wanna have my Game Boy. Sorry Frank. Oh dear. Oh it's weird cos when you're tape recording Make her sound like a complete you know Alright alright horrible person but you know. Oh I just can't wait. Cos if I've got her letter then I can copy it all down perfectly. She won't even know. Come on I'm gonna switch this tape of now. Alright. If you drop it that's your problem. I believe it's four hundred pounds. I know. I wouldn't buy it for four hundred. There must be a cheaper No but no but if you're rich it's alright you know but. Yeah but there must be a cheaper model . God where where they gonna put all this Can't all be One minute. You know what I mean you know all them kind of Walkmans they can't be all four hundred pounds. Hang on how many of this one two three four five six six times four yes Is twenty four. Yeah! Oh my god! So where they gonna put all these afterwards? She said cheaper model yes? Yeah. it's a bit under. Yeah. It's just under thousand pounds. Yeah. Oh my god. So where they gonna put all these? Who who what who do they belong to? Oh I dunno Oh I wish we were the last people they might have keep it They wouldn't do such a thing. Mm. You know when I when I first thought of that I thought you know I'd let us keep it. Oh yeah. Oh wish it did. I wouldn't mind carrying this around . Yeah. Anyway stop hinting. If it if it broke oh my god well I would just die. I I wouldn't know what to do you know. I just wish I'd never die. I just wished I'd never done it you know. Yeah. Because if if it broke it'd be like all my fault. D'ya reckon you'd have to pay for it? Yeah. Most probably . never paid for that. I mean like Yeah but it'd be my it'd be my fault if it broke. Yeah but they probably cos they'd be insured. They're probably insured aren't they? Oh yeah. Yeah but the insurance company would probably gonna pay erm to me through me isn't it? Oh yeah Yeah. Alright Lynne? Who's he? Bloody How did he know your name then? Can we go to the toilets? Yeah alright . switch it off when I go. Yeah. I don't want . . Right. Oh yeah I was wondering why you were holding them. D'ya know what couple of quid Sophie send all this stuff and then show Yeah. No no. Why not? I just don't want to hear her voice. You're really bad. Where's in the loo? In the loo. But that things making like when you go out Checking. Twang ping. What oh what in there? Mm. Oh right really? Yeah. Oh right I see what you mean. Look I look I've got that side of my head. You know Kate yeah. It was really funny in maths . Mm. Cos I you my when I go Hold that. Give me your headphones. listen to. Hello. I can hear myself now. What? That was just being herself as usual. bits in your hair? I don't understand. Did you wash it last night? Yeah. Has the bell gone d'ya think? Dunno. I need the loo but they've got no toilet paper so I can't go. Yes they have. They should have. Where. Should be in some from er Yes but you don't know where it's been. It could have been recycled from another person's toiletry. Oh come on. Anyway I'm gonna leave you with this. Mm. And I will see you tomorrow first thing Turn it off then. You said Amy didn't you? Did I? Yeah you just came out the loo and then you just said Amy. I never. Me. Bye. Bye. Mr . Erm excuse me. No it's for Mr . It's for yeah It's their project. That speech therapy. Who with? Mr . Oh. Special thing is it? Yeah. Oh. You're not supposed to be walking round the corridor with it though? No but we have to recor record a conversation. Yeah. You have to carry on as much time as Oh you mean you're just looking at various people No no no no. We're having a conversation And we have to tape record it. Yeah so In all this noise? Yeah. But it microphone. You have to carry it as often as often and you're supposed to Fill up ten tapes of conversation. So it's an official thing is it? Yeah. Yeah there's erm another a few other people doing it as well. Yeah. That's what . I wish Mr had seen . we were lying. Did you Oh my god I would just die. I know I've got computer studies Mm. ear hole about some cookery Wouldn't mind wouldn't mind tape recording his voice. What lesson have you got next? Geography. Oh Over there in the hut. I've got it down here somewhere. Yeah he was gonna make me had it over. I know he didn't even get it afterwards when we told him. I know. So thick. He's not bad looking He's alright I know. God you know when you talk the wind sort of like makes have those in school they're I'm allowed to. No you're not allowed to have them in school. I am cos Mr erm said I could Why? Cos we're doing this project for the Norwegian thing. But you're not allowed to walk around the school with a Walkman. So take it off now. We are it said on the thing. On what thing? The instructions I got is that no Walkman are allowed in school. Have to fill up ten tapes. Yeah but are you supposed to be wearing it around the school? Yeah you have to record as many conversations as you can. You have to fill up ten tapes. Who's this for, Mr? Young. Alright well I'll check that one out. Go on then. The trouble is if you start using it then everybody else thinks you're listening to music and they'll start bring theirs in. Mm? What? Hello. We've got games today. Yes and I'm Caroline's partner today. Yes and I'm and Sophie's partner today. This is such a riveting conversation. I know. No it wasn't planned earlier on was it? No. Hello you in there. What Mr does he Caroline? No I didn't see him. I've switched it off. Started to play it's recording. Mm? Oh yeah yeah that was the one. Hello my name is Caroline and here is Jenny who's taken a bit long to come into class. And we're here we have everybody with us faces. Do you know what the reason I hate him you know and he and he goes on my friend Garry and he goes oh you still going out with that Pakkie? That's why he's an arsehole. Really? How did you know? He told me. What told you? oh he said you could out with that Pakkie. He still and he told you? Yeah. Really? Yeah really. Oh! It's taping by the way. I know. Erm hello this is Natalie and I'm going to interview Amy . Hello Amy . What lessons d'ya have after lunch? I have H E. I have H E and I'm doing my exam. Oh I hope to do very in them. You only have about two weeks left is that right? That is right. Oh. Don't I'm so happy for you. I wish I was doing my as well and H E. Anyway time to go bye. Bye. Oh hello. This is Kim . Hello Kim. Well can you in the classroom. I wouldn't lie. No it's you can ask Mr . That's why they have to erm tape conversations. You're you're taping conversations are you? Yeah. Then then you're very very careful what you say hadn't you? Yes. He's an excellent teacher. No. That's called our teacher Mr God what a prat. Kim are we putting our bags I'll I'll have to go over it. Have you got it on record now cos you're taping all this. I know. Er I'm sorry about that. When are we doing it? All conversa all conversations. Yes for this speech therapy. Say what you think of Scott. How we talk how we talk. Say what I think of Scott. Oh yeah. He's got a big nose got big ears. He hasn't got any he's got no erm he hasn't hairy legs. talk about Scott. He's Jewish and he's saving up to be Jewish. And erm Can somebody come Oh wait I need to get my money. You going in the canteen? And here we are walking along the corridor. And there's Mr who's locking the door and he's making sure that no one tries to get in. And here we come we're going to lunch and this is Amy . Hello how are you today? The weather it's it's extremely hot today . Don't talk like that don't talk like that just talk like Alright then. Right. how you Well erm oh shall we go to the canteen? No come on let's go to the canteen cos I want school dinner. I'm I'm I'm conversation. Do everyone's conversation. Come on we can go in. We're now walking into the This is the canteen. As you can hear from everyone's conversation . Yes and you can hear everyone munching away on their food. And there's Andy very good looking Er what's he eating? Only once only once today. You got told off about five million times. Are you recording it? Yeah. Hello I'm Amy Ah there's Andy over there looking gorgeous as usual. Andy . He's table he goes and there's a dick head in glasses that wouldn't serve you at the tuck shop cos it was closing. I'm looking a nice person. Don't walk away cos I'm connected to you. Okay we're going to canteen . You know what you have to do. And food. Lucy's looking very nice in a very nice skirt today. You being sarcastic? No I she's looking very nice in a nice skirt. No I like it so I said it. Oh. I don't know how they get I know. to get a licence to sell this food you know. I mean it's really expensive though. Who's she? Er puke. What cheese. I know it's not melted. Oh I don't even know what to get. What a tough decision. Are there any turkey burgers? ask how much they are. Mm I know. They're thirty four. Thirty four P they're about an inch long. There's no turkey burgers. Can I go and get a drink with you. Yeah. In a minute cos. I'm going to get a drink okay. Don't go yet because Caroline's awaiting and we're connected up cos I've got the microphone. just get a beefburger got to get a beefburger. Look their burgers are looking it's got a bit of fat on there. Just like Kate Moss. the lemon meringue? It's not browned properly. Look it's not cooked is it? I tried lemon meringue once and it's nasty. Was it nasty? Nasty. I'm gonna get a Caribbean . Look oh hang on. Oh no. You know crumble yeah? Yeah. I love crumble. Get me a Caribbean one. Oh here I'll get it for myself. D'ya want a chocolate one? Oh look I could get a little cake. Oh look there's the chocolate ones. Oh careful. Sorry. Yes. Go on speak into the microphone. Hello. Yeah I think he heard you. Here you are. Caroline's got chips hot dog and a chocolate milk shake. Fifty seven. You paid? Oh no I don't have enough money for never mind. Okay. No. Oops. Fewer chips. They've still got club there. Just imagine if someone you know like Why's he in a track suit? Who? A nice one. A very nice one. Here in a a nice track suit. A nice nice track suit. I don't know Mr at all I'm not in any of his classes. I looked at him and goes no no no Mr Mr he goes like this he goes like you know hi and I went oh I don't even know you you dick head. Anyone want the microphone? I'm laying it on the table . to Amy. eating your lunch. Yes Laura. I'm recording it all. Turn it off Caroline. Right wait a minute. Turn in off. Then we started arguing we'd go we go why aren't you talking to us well it's okay. It's alright for you to lie to us as many times as you want but when we'd asked you once you get in a mood and walk off and don't talk to us. Yeah but that's not my fault. Why aren't you talking to me? Cos you're not apologize and I don't want I ain't apologizing to you because you ain't gonna talk to me. Well then. You're having a go at me for what Penny and Natalie said and I never said it. Alright then. The only thing that I said was erm that Tony told us that you keep your game tonight so that you've got a friend any time you want. That's all I said. That's a lie cos my mum always I won't. It doesn't bother me. You're the one getting in a huff. I don't know why that is Yeah apologize to me then. Well why aren't we talking then. Cos them two ain't talking don't mean we shouldn't. I'm not gonna apologize to you and you're not gonna apologize Yeah but there's so much starving Apologize. in Ethiopia and you're bothered because you're not talking to one another. Why don't we just apologize together? Go on then. I have a sensible solution to this argument. Why don't you We'll just say sorry to Deborah. Yeah. at the same time after three One two three Sorry. Right now you're speaking to each other? Yes. Yes? It's the easiest way isn't it. If I have an argument with I'm gonna play that tape back and even worry. All you said about them. You mean you've just taped our argument. That's just gonna stir up more trouble. She's just taped us. Natalie and aren't getting an apology What are we doing? I'm gonna ask him. No cos it's no cos er Mr knows this woman or something. Like like like he she Oh how knows No. parents. No their not honestly. I can't see like that. Well don't you look fine. haircut? Aye? What's it like ? like Gazza. Oh no. Seriously? Yeah. Er no one will fancy him now. Not that I fancied him before but. No no no no. What is it what is it? What is it oh you sing Oliver that song that's so funny. Consider yourself Is that improvisation wasn't it? Consider yourself one of the family. it's clear we're gonna get along. Consider yourself Supercalafragalisticexpialidotious I dunno it's supercalafragalisticexpialidotious. Oh heck you have the microphone cos I mean . D'ya know what I mean cos you're the one that's so I'd better. Consider yourself . What's what's that song? Oliver. on record? Yeah. No. No. You should because it's more . Yeah well I hate Susan as well. Don't don't say don't erm tell anybody that you've got it on. She's recording it the stupid cow she's She's slagging off now Lyne . Oh football. Consider yourself. Ask him what he thinks of Susan. Don't you dare. Yeah. that's what I said. And then she said no don't you dare and it will ruin Consider yourself one of the family. Consider yourself. Oh it sort of slips put bloody week ahead. Lyne. Yeah. Oh. What? Were you playing that song? Yeah. So what d'ya think of erm what d'ya think of Why? D'ya like them? Why? No seriously do you really like them? What d'ya mean really them? Well what d'ya think of them? As friends? Do I fancy them? No no. What d'ya think of them like do they get on your nerves at all? What? What? Can't hear you. Do they take over? No. What? They let you do everything. Cor they can be so bossy them two. Yeah. What d'ya think of what d'ya think of what d'ya think of Kim? Why? Well what d'ya think of her. Why? Personal reasons. No personal reasons. Who d'ya fancy? Oh yeah we What? Can you say it a bit louder. Can't hear you. I don't know him. Oh. What d'ya think about Who d'ya really hate who really gets on your nerves? what d'ya think of Scott's girlfriend? Is she really nice? Has Scott got a girlfriend? Has Scott got a girlfriend? Yeah her name's Jessica. Blimey. And she lives in . What d'ya think? What d'ya think about Steven? I thought they They went they all joined I say I think he's right . Who d'ya hate really really hate ? Why? What d'ya think of ? Very pretty. Oh yeah. No speak truthfully now. Speak truthfully. You have to speak truthfully. It's Caroline's. No it isn't it's Caroline's. Oh now I I couldn't read for ten minutes before. What? Read? Read? What's that girl got in her hair look the red hair band round. right over the other side. Yeah we can hear up by the canteen. He probably was in the background. Look at Heather You know what to do it's so funny. Look this is what Robin did. He found out. You fit it on your watch Yeah. then put it all up your sleeve Yeah I know. walkman and then you don't have to see it. He just Yeah but it it doesn't matter you're allowed it. You're allowed it though. I know but then when they talk to you they won't see it. Is Lianne here today? Isn't Lianne here today? Where is she? we've got something more important see you later. push me away. get on her nerves. You know that you know the one Yeah. You know Mark's got it down there. Yeah. It's put her's down there. No point no one 's going to see it. I don't want anybody to see it not really. It isn't down here it's up here. go up to Lee and ask him about the letter that got Why don't you come why don't you come. How do we know you can do it? I'll sponsor you twenty P. Give me your pen. I'll sponsor you something. I'll sponsor you twenty P. There you go. back the letter. can. Come on. Susan you're the only one that knows. What's she gonna do? I know I didn't realize that was just Lee . I dunno. Say it again say it all again cut. Right action. Get Lee over here or he's in bum shit. get Lee over here I've really got to speak to him. But we can't taunt him in front of Dean. We can't taunt him in front of Dean. We can't taunt him in front of them lot. Tell him to just fuck . You've just taped that. You've just taped that Lyne. Look I think I need some new trousers. I really liked your trousers. the material. I liked them too. Yeah I can't find any more like this. Where did you get your trousers again? Tiptop? No I saw her lying down. I wondered what she was doing she was going What about in rounders when you couldn't pick up the ball. That was so funny. She's there Why won't Lee come over here? No we're doing for six weeks. I'm going to environmentally friend . Put your foot out. watch this. I've got put your foot out. Put your shoe out. Ready? Upright upright upright. Put it out like that. Ready? You can catch me fifty P mister. Shoe shine fifty P. Oh yeah. Got a shoe shine kit. Anyone else want their shoe polished? Yes Susan. I don't know that. I don't know your name but Lyne thinks you've got a nice dress. Yeah that's me. Your dress is nice. Lovely yeah. Sort of common type of dress though. Yeah. Oh then I might as well go out and buy You common types wouldn't know intellectual people wear. Camden town residents. What did say? Amy wake up with you? Amy? Yeah wait a sec. Yeah. And erm and like she answered the phone and I didn't know whether it was so I go is is that Lucy? And they didn't say anything so I go, Oh will be round at about erm half past er quarter past eight and goes, Yeah okay then. And go and see her. Oh . Oh shit. Come on we'd better go in. Can we do in? give me a bubble gum. Alright then. Go on then. It's on record You'd better. I will. Oh shit. Oh why don't we do cos then everyone can join in. Alright. One two three four. Shall I sing it? Shall I sing with you? One two three four. Dum-do-be-do-dum-dum. Come on. cumma-cumma-cumma-dum-do-be-do-dum-dum-cumma-cumma-dum-do-be- do-dum-dum-waking-up-is-hard-to-do. Don't take your love. You know I reckon you guys would have won it if you'd if you if you hadn't started laughing. I couldn't help it. Oh you could've carried on. I couldn't remember the words. Well then it wasn't all my fault. you know when you laugh and you can't stop. The way they went It was so lucky that I It seems so . D'ya know what said to me?she goes She goes she said if we hadn't have stopped we might have won yeah like you know not that I was bothered. But I Come on Lee's gone I've got to go to speak to him. She goes we might have won the prize yeah. And the I go erm so then I go, Yeah but didn't they look a bit stupid she goes, Actually everyone's laughing at and they go, Thank god for that. Like you know they weren't larking it up. She the facts but they . You know when I curtsied and all my skirt came up and you could see my knickers. Did you? Didn't you remember? No. And they all started laughing and I wondered what they were laughing at. They didn't. They did. Someone told me afterwards that when I went like that They were lying. when I went like that it went up you know. And started laughing as soon as I did that started laughing . Oh I remember that. my skirt went up. I didn't I didn't see. What were you doing? It was just a you know. Oh yeah. She's in a No we're the ones that got you to do it. Mm. I didn't want to do it That's what I thought I get so embarrassed. cos he was doing the thing and writing down the list and I had to go and find him with her. Why did you think it was me that wrote the letter? Who was it then? I don't know. Oh well that's what I wanna know. Cos whoever it was they got me in trouble. In trouble Why did you say I beaten up by Lisa? You was. I wasn't. Cos Terry asked Simon and Simon said because Simon cos Simon said he never even said that . So you've been shit stirring. Oh look you've done enough so don't talk to me. Why didn't she know anything? Oh the cow I wanna find out. And I don't even don't I? He said you didn't he gone off of you because you didn't write it. That's okay then. Yeah. Let's get that fact straight. By the way That Emma isn't she's taken her tights off. No she didn't she put them dear me you said tell me she put them back on again. Oh we've gotta tape Simon now. Why? You're not gonna hear it again. Oh you'd better keep that tape. You can't she can't keep them. Tomorrow I'll bring in a blank tape if you want to but I can't take them that one. She's got to hand them in to this lady on Tuesday. We well you've gotta be when you you gotta scrub out all them erm those swearing bits we've been doing. Why what's the point? That's your sister. She's not gonna have a go at us. It's my sister My sister. my sister. Oh. She's not gonna have a go at us for it. But she back Norwegian land so she can't . Norwegian land. Guess what? We just reported Lee about the letter. Four hundred pounds. You got that for four hundred pounds. No it's not mine it's It's not Carry it's this thing we have to she tape conversations for speech therapy. She gotta When I see I'm gonna make out it's mine. Lady's from Nor Nor erm Nor where is it? Norway. Norway that's it a Norwegian woman What is it? Norwegian. Come on. Oh okay. Come to my form room and we'll Okay I'll see you later . Er erm I'm don't bother meeting me cos I'm meeting you. Okay. Oh Caroline have you still got the thing? What? What's the point it's like all it has got is a little button and a little microphone as well. No but you can get them you can get them for less than that. Yeah. You can about forty pounds. I'll see you later. I used to have one of these except it didn't have this. It came actually on the thing. take off the speakers and you didn't use the speakers to hear it. Just like a radio really. To carry around. It's quite good actually. Isn't he good looking?we've been testing them off Oh yeah. It's not Steve it's not it's John. My mum knows his mum. My mum knows his mum. He went to . I remember you at No you won't know me. What's your name? What? Steve. Steve. Hey Caroline listen. This is Lyne. So? She remembers you from Did you go to ? Oh right. No no no no. Oh you're okay don't get me wrong but they think . I think you're good looking. You got a girlfriend? Yes? Yeah of course. What's her name? What's her name? It that your ? No. Oh. far away from Amy are you? No but that takes a long while to get round. Yeah. Hello Shavina. Isn't it a fine morning today? Yes it is. Wonderful. Yeah. Let's see if it's actually yeah it's working. You'll have to speak to that boy again today. What boy? Simon what's his name Steven Steve. Oh right. It's well good I can hear your voice. Eh? I can hear your voice. Good. right cow. And you know yesterday she had the nerve to ask me if she could sit at the end of our table. God. Cos I thought I mean At that time I was just going to call you a bitch. Why did she want to sit next to you? No a fucking bitch okay. Alright the same difference . really fucking bitch and I hate her. She she you know she was slagging me off like anything right. And then then the next and then then in geography she says right what's your mark all sweetly. Mm. And then and then like you know and then she went off in a mood cos I cos I go to let's me sit opposite you like hinting like oh I don't want to sit there. Mm. Don't she? And then she does off in a mood. She turns around and sits you know well well it's not my fault. She probably wants to be friends now. No well but that's stupid. Well she's a stupid cow. I don't like her. It's like you know when we had that fight with you? Mm. I felt I wanted to make up with you but it's true though with I really don't want to. I don't wanna get in a fight with you I don't want like one big fight. Mm. But I mean I don't want a fight with I just don't wanna make up with her. I mean I mean don't say it to okay you know? Mm. I mean If like I hated you I wouldn't go up to Lyne and start slagging you off. Mm. I mean maybe soon after you maybe I'll say look well you know blah blah blah you got you know I like saying that I didn't like kind of bloke but not like she's such a fucking bitch and all this. Mm. But why I mean so stupid. She doesn't want you to know that you know she what she thought about you I reckon she did because why she Yeah. I mean I wanna you know. Oh no. really nice one I reckon. like maybe her expression evil one. Mm. Her little brother's cute. Mm. Oh he so sweet. His front teeth are so sweet. She's not sweet. Yeah maybe we should just forget the whole thing you know. I mean she's not not that bad but I wouldn't like to I mean If you call me a fucking bitch now maybe I'd forgive you kind of like and you know like in a while I'd forgive you. Mm. I can't forgive her. Mm. Why people? Maybe she just said it in the heat of anger or whatever. Yeah well that shows what she's . And you like to don't you. You dare tell her this and because don't because this is really gonna make feel badly doesn't want it okay? Mm mhm. goes to her for quite a while and she was saying, Oh I don't think Shavina likes me. And she was saying that 's a right bitch 's such a bitch 's such a bitch and then to she goes I like you but Shavina's a fucking bitch. Oh my god. Can you believe that she says that. Oh they're so funny. Every time I always get him in trouble in French. don't you? Mm. I do. She's alright. Doesn't mean . D'ya reckon ? No he's got a baby face. I think he's sweet. I suppose he is a good looking bloke. Don't fancy him . Mm. Well seeing as this is working I might as well pick up the headphones isn't it. Better take off the headphones. This things working isn't it? says D'ya reckon I'm thick? Yeah. No honestly. Well thick in what way like? Well like thick. Not thick you're not. You're not that thick. I mean you're not thick like. Thick in what way tell me. Cos there's lots of ways of being thick. Well like yeah well like don't really work hard you know. That's that's nothing to do with thickness anyway but you know you're just saying that. Mm. I don't like don't really work though do you? Mm. I mean but anyway that's nothing to do with being thick by the way. You're not thick you work hard. Well you know that boy My elder brother he doesn't work hard but I suppose he is kind of quite . Mm. Your brother's so funny. What one? The big one. Fat one the big one. Yeah the big one. Why? Just funny. Oh dear. That cracks me up. First of all . Next thing I'm helmet. Who else I've never seen any of the movies. I have. Are they good? I like that. Are they scary? Kind of. They came on T V I remember once I'm never allowed to watch films. I mean I it's different if I was like you know if the summer holidays and we were like this erm thing like erm a magic show that was on quite late or something. You know I'd be allowed to watch that but just because there was a film on A magic show. Yeah I wouldn't be allowed to watch it. you wouldn't watch a little movie show. Well no that's that's no good. Paul Daniels show. Yeah. That's nice. Let's go in there I wanna get a drink. Dying of thirst. Quenches your thirst fast. I don't. D'ya remember the little rat in Oh yeah. What's his name again John Bond isn't it? Mm. Oh dear. You know when we went to there were some more nice guys there. Really nice. There's bean face. Up here. Coming up. Yeah I know. The think I hate about him is he doesn't even know you and he starts slagging you off. You know what I mean? He did that to you you'd go to your mum. What's your name I know. Remember that boy yesterday Such a creep. Talking to you yeah . when I remember what says you go yeah right. And he was like he was like oh look I'm not telling you I'm not telling you anything now. Can I have a chocolate milk shake? Oh dear. I just cracked up. You know yesterday I was I was listening over it you know so I could write the people who I'd spoken to yeah. And erm I remember I remember that boy you know when goes when he goes that was so funny. Cos when he said that he was willing to speak right Mm. he didn't mind him speaking and as soon as yeah right then he said I'm not I'm not telling Yeah. I'm not telling you. I was just about Cos he was like Mm. Yesterday when I remembered it I just cracked up. cigarettes? Mm he didn't expect that. Did he he never expected I know. I couldn't believe she said that. She's so rude though. It's best to express your opinions. Well that's that's exactly what that's what she Dotty or whatever. What kind of name is that Doherty. No one can even pronounce it. Yeah well that that's what she says. People think I'm a bitch cos I speak my mind. Yeah. well you're just the same . Yeah I saw that. I like the clothes she wears. Eh? You know like the last time Oh do they? Last time she wore this suite it looked really nice. I know you told me that as well. I always repeat myself. I don't even know why I do that. Yeah. D'ya ever talk to yourself? Oh you were asking that yesterday. Oh dear. I can't think of anything new to say that's why. Mind you sometimes I don't even realize I've said it. Eh? When you said Yeah. I thought you were sick. I know I can't believe I said that. When I said that he sort of like turned away you know and he walked off. And then Lyne says to me he is in the bottom set. And I thought oh my god. He's so thick why d'ya have to come out with something stupid like I know. Always put my mouth in it. My foot in it. My mouth in it. They're gonna like the car. Maybe she'll give it to Shavina as a wedding present. Look they've stuck a sticker in the back, Cars kill trees. Where? They've got in this sticker up the back, Cars kill, oh thank you. Why are you driving that car It's such a sick I know. We should prote protest against cars Mm let me drive one though. Where did you get your shoes from? I've been looking for a pair of doctor martins can't find any. Dolcis Savilles. my shoes there. Dolcis where's that? Dolcis. Where's that? whole branch you can get them everywhere. From some Brentcross. Oh right. Hi Laura. What's the matter with you? Hi. Hello. Is that on record again? Yeah. Wish I could miss seven and eight. Yeah. Actually I quite like science with Mr . actually I've got computer studies and then R A. Stuart No actually I didn't really wanna school. I think I've had enough time in school. summer. Do that thing. I don't know. Have you heard that advert?what is it? Whoa you've got such a good voice. Hello. No. Well bring in a picture of him every time Why d'ya memorize them? I don't it's just that No. Yeah oh my god! Oh my god! He really does. Oh my god that's really weird. I think Richard's here. Oh I know Richard's mums car. It's miss Where are we going Caroline? I don't know I'm following you. Come round. Alright. Oh that's great I could do with a D. It was so funny I mean Who what? Me. I was about to leave for school and I walked out the door without my skirt on. And I Really? and they were all going, Lyne where's your skirt? she can't see it. Cos my mum gets like that a bit. Oh is it underneath your jumper? bull shit . Cos I was ironing it you see Mm. and cos I just left it screwed up on the floor last night and then well I walked out the door without my skirt. It was so funny. You know that girl Eh? That's how she says it. Thinks she's so good. Hate her. Prosti prostitute. No you just go like this God how can Emma wear erm her skirt without tights? It's freezing. No. Yeah my sister saw him. I know you told me. Oh did I? Eh? What time d'ya usually go What in the morning? Yeah. Oh you wanted to wave to me cos I was gonna ask you to erm get into the second carriage all the time. Erm But then I've gotta meet Emma and she stands up at the top. Oh right. Yeah I can get her to wait down sort of at the other end. Right. Erm well like I usually take the train about I meet Emma at twenty past I meet Emma at half past. Twenty past eight. So you you meet her at half past? Yeah. So I read the letter which you wrote again. Yeah okay. I'm not there Cos I read the first one as well. Cos I Mhm. So we can all meet at half past yes? Mhm. Well that's only one stop isn't it? What? Lyne? one stop. Hers Yeah. No point is there? Eh? No point is there? I come into Bounds Green Mm. so I I earlier. Mm. Crazy leaving at twenty past. hungry. We're talking about the noises. Cos my chest's really burning and I'm not . My mum right when I put my make-up on in the morning my mum said oh erm she went to the phone box and she phoned up the specialist and they said so I've gotta go. So I'm going Hello Alright? I've gotta fill up the tapes. Yeah. Where's your earring? What earrings? I've never had any earrings. Why don't you wear them. Oh because I lost them and my mum won't buy me any more . People in Norway Caroline smells extremely bad. Is it in Norway? Do I smell? It's Caroline. It's not me. I'm really hungry. Caroline have you got any chewing gum? I've only got one. At that's mine. No. No. If I give it to Laura one and then I'll have to give thingamajig one . And I don't I've only got one left. Look I've got one left I wouldn't lie. One left and that's from yesterday. Oh mine mine. Mine. Oh really . putting that voice on Oh no no no I put it I put it off. That's a good idea isn't it? Hello. Oh yeah I I was telling you about that song wasn't I. Did I tell you about that song that I heard just once. And I can't get it out of my head. Oh I don't know what it's called. Oh my god I've just realized something. What? You were taping this thing in that advert. What advert? Oh yeah yeah yeah. Erm you lucky lucky thing . Like that. Oh yeah. D'ya remember those songs? Bye. Yeah I remember that song. isn't it. Yeah. Hand on like this. I know. Susie good bye. Really? Oh she's so funny. You know. Where will I see you like you know. Up to date and she's her mum and dad's L Ps. Like Barry Manilow. No they're probably Bygraves. no it's probably because they don't buy her any. No it isn't. She likes them. Cos she cos she likes them songs she loves them. She listens to the radio every week. It's Oh my god. Just as she like no all the words every song. You know she has to know the words. And it's so annoying because I'm bothered if I know words hum the tune. Yeah cos I'm She has the whole singing the words. Mm. Sometimes she sings a song right and you know I'm wondering where did this song come from. I've never heard of it . Yeah yeah. You know. Is it in the charts lately or something. Is this your classroom? Yes. Oh. Who's that? What is it? Why d'ya take a picture? What does she want to be a model? I saw this boy that looks exactly like you. He did honestly. He really did. He was a second year I think. Didn't we see a boy that looks just like Barry? In the fourth year. Is he in the fourth year? Mm. Oh. What's his name? Dunno. half like you really he did. He did. Alright. Oh no not that thing oh. Is that it? No. Have I done it? No. No no I don't want you to do it to me. Then what? Hold on to her hands Yeah. Sorry hold on to her arms and do it. Pull her arms pull her arms. What is it go on pull her. No don't erm I get claustrophobic and I get really scared. No do it to her. Why to you get claustrophobic? I don't know. Maybe bottom undone Yeah. Go on. You're like a cat That's why I I never like to like button up and I just hate it. Hi I wonder if he's marked our books. I'm just waiting to see what mark he gave me. Probably gonna give me a zero. Pardon me. What boy? Yeah I've got one you can have it. I've just had one. Are sure? Yeah. It was you that made me like him. human being. Yeah. Oh wow. He was so kind to me . Mm. He went and said oh she Did he? Yeah at the last you know that disco? Oh I wasn't there. And I was with Deborah he gave me a hard I wonder how old he is now? Oh my god she only saw him once. seems to have come up a bit. I saw him once. Who? I was walking and he was with his mum and I looked up cos I know what his mum looks like and he was walking with his mum. Did he notice you? North Finchley I saw him. No. Oh. Oh I thought you were yeah I was gonna say. Sort of a bit Yeah. Is that still on? You keep it on for all that time? Hello. Do do that again. Do that how did you do that? No no the other one. Hello. Yeah that one. Have you heard the beginning of Jade? He goes he goes erm, What's your name? Bean. No I mean your first name. Mister. Yeah I remember that. In Jade at the beginning of it. Yeah they've got an answer machine. They go I'll be back in yeah like and then they all go and start laughing like right bimbos . Bimbos and start saying oh yeah that's just like them to do that stupid song. Hello, I'm losing my voice Hello I'm Say something. Hello, my name's Memet. Say something, say something. What? Say something, talk to me. Oh, hello darling, goodbye. Right, I'm a bimbo. Ssh My name's Caroline and I'm a bimbo Oh ooh I fancy Oh look we're having a game now. Who's taking it? No you can . Thank you. What's that? Rounders? Miss I prefer Miss actually. I don't mind Miss that much, she's not that bad. She likes me.. you know it's been cancelled out. Sir, you've got something white over here. Something white. Meeow. I'm gonna write on your thing, and he goes . Oh great. Hello I'm from Manchester. My friends like Take That. No your friends take that. What? Your friends take that. Will take what? Your friends with take that. These are my friends with Take That. This is gonna be so sophisticated. ergh Shut up. Well. Hey, hey. No we're not. Claire. She's got my folder. She's gonna get Yeah but she's got my folder. Yeah but I dunno I've got my folder I mean. I'm Rashira and I come from Birmingham. Ay, ay get off like, ay. Ay, ay calm down ay. Ay alright alright alright. Hooray. Alright, alright alright alright, just calm down ay. Why? Stop taking the mickey alright? Aye aye aye Right Alright, alright, calm down. You know Wednesday? You gonna go in for the rounders? Yeah yeah, I will. What, is it this Wednesday? Yeah. Yeah. Wha what will we have to bring like? Your uniform, and Miss 's doing it. Oh what won't we have to bring our P E kit or anything? No No, that's great, like. Right. Right. Bye. Bye. . Aye aye aye, d'you ever watch it like?conversation. Oh did you watch Eastenders? Yeah. That was brilliant. Oh he's such a nutter isn't he. God he's such a nutcase. He reminds me of Who?who? Why? Just 'cause he's got curly hair. He's her brother. Yeah, doesn't look like her hair. That, that boy was 's brother. Yeah, I know. Sir, do you wanna say something? The wind was a of darkness, among the gusty trees. The moon was a ghostly galleon, tossed upon cloudy seas. The road was a ribbon of moonlight over the purple moor. And the highwayman came riding, riding, riding. The highwayman came riding up to the old inn door. He'd a french cocked hat on his forehead, a bunch of at his chin, a coat of claret velvet and breeches of brown doe skin. They fitted with ne'er a wrinkle. His boots were up to the thigh, and he rode with a jewelled twinkle, his pistols but a twinkle, his rapier hilt a twinkle under the jewelled sky. Over the cobbles he clattered, and clashed in the darkened yard, and he tapped with his on the shutters, but all was locked and barred. He whistled a tune to the window, but who should be waiting there? But the landlord's black eyed daughter, Bess. The landlord's daughter, plaiting a dark red love knot, into her long black hair. And in the dark old inn yard, a stable creaked. Where Tom the ostler listened, his face was white and peaked. His eyes were hollows of madness, his hair like mouldy hay. But he loved the landlord's daughter, the landlord's red-lipped daughter. Dumb as a dog he listened, and heard the robber say, One kiss my bonny sweetheart, I'm after a prize tonight, but I shall be back with the yellow gold, before the morning light. Though didst they pass me sharply, and hang through the day. Then look for me by moonlight, watch for me by moonlight, I'll come to thee by moonlight, though hell shall bar the way. He rose up light in the stirrups, He scarce could reach her hand, but she loosened her casement, his face burnt like a brand. As the black perfume came tumbling over his breast, and he kissed it sweet in the moonlight, a sweet in the moonlight, and he tugged at his reigns in the moonlight, and galloped away to the west. He did not come in the dawning. He did not come at noon. But out oh tawny sunset, before the rise on moon, when the road was a gypsy ribbon, looping the purple moor, a red coat troop came marching, marching, marching, King George's men came marching, up to the old inn door. They said no word to the landlord, they drank his ale instead, but they gagged his daughter and bound her to the foot of a narrow bed. Two of them knelt at her casement, with muskets their side. There was death at every window, and hell on one dark window. That Bess could see through her casement, the road that he would ride. They tied her up to a tension, with many si sniggering jest. They bound a musket beside her, with the barrel beneath her breast. Now come good watch they listened, she heard the robber moan, she heard the dead man say, look for me by moonlight, watch for me by moonlight, I'll come to thee by moonlight, though hell shall bar the way. she twisted her hands behind her, but all the knots held good. She her hands to her fingers, all wet with sweat or blood. They stretched and strained in the darkness, and the hours crawled by like years. Till now on the stroke of midnight, cold on the stroke of midnight, the tip of one finger touched it, the trigger at last was hers. The tip of one finger touched it, she strove no more for the rest, up sh up she stood to attention with the barrel beneath her breast. She would not risk their hearing, she would not strive again, for the road lay bare in the moonlight, blank and bare in the moonlight, and the blood of her veins in the moonlight, throbbed to her lovers refrain. Had they heard it? The horse's hooves ringing clear? In the distance, were they deaf that they could not hear? Down the ribbon of moonlight, over the brow of the hill, the highwayman came riding, riding, riding, the highwayman came riding. The redcoat looked at the . She stood up straight and still. In the frosty silence In the echoing night. Nearer and nearer he came, her face was like a light. Her eyes grew wide for one moment, she drew one last deep breath. Then her finger moved in the moonlight, her musket shattered the moonlight, shattered her breast in the moonlight, and warned him with her death. He turned and sped westward, he did not know who stood, bowed with her head o'er a musket, drenched with her own blood. Not till the dawn he heard it, and slowly blanched to hear, how Bess the landlord's daughter, the landlord's black eyed daughter, had watched for her love in the moonlight, and died in the darkness there. Back he sped like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky. With the white road smoking behind him, and his rapier brandished high. Blood, blood red were his spurs,moon, rhymed red with his velvet coat, when they shot him down on the highway, down like a dog on the highway, and he lay in his blood on the highway, with a bunch of lace at his throat. And still of a winter's night they say, when the wind is in the trees, when the moon is a ghostly galleon, tossed upon cloudy seas. When the road is a ribbon of moonlight, over the purple moor, a highwayman comes riding, riding, riding, a highwayman comes riding, up to the old inn door. Over the cobbles he clatters, and clangs in the darkened yard, and he taps with his whip on the shutters, but all is locked and barred. He whistles a tune to the window, and who shall be waiting there? But the landlord's black eyed daughter. Bess, the landlord's daughter, plaiting a dark red love-knot into her long black hair . Lisa Stansfield? Yeah. No. I think, I think that song's rubbish. What do you hate the charity it's for? Is it for a charity? Yeah. What is it for? Aids. Oh. Well, that's their problem. Why do you hate it so much? Because it's their own fault for going to, nobody told them to go and do it, did they? So what, are you telling me you're gonna be a nun, and never have sex. I'm not saying that, but if you're gonna do it, you might as well, you know do it properly. It's their fault, I don't have any sympathy for them. What, what's going on? The aids people. Who's got aids. You. Caroline . If it was from a blood transplant. Who? You. Didn't you? Mmm No, but say you did get one though No, no if it was from a blood transplant then I'd feel sorry for them, but if it was from you know, then I don't. What if you just got raped by a man with aids. Yeah, well I'd feel sorry for them again, but you know, if they went and did it willingly, it's their, that's their problem. Who's got aids? Nobody. What's this about Lisa Stansfield, George Michael, whatever? She did this thing for the aids people. So? Yeah, and we were just talking about it. Caroline,approached by a weird man? Hmm? have you ever been approached by anyone weird. No. Did you get ? That's what I got. You're not supposed to be using a ruler Emmy. Yes you are. Then how do you do the lines? You know what I mean, cause you know. What you eating? Gimme one now. Gimme one. It's from home. Don't believe me. I won't. Well don't, cause I didn't tell you to . Sir? Yes. Is it next Monday, the test? Tomorrow. But we haven't got a lesson tomorrow. Right, Mmmm. what would you do? What do you mean, what would I do? I wouldn't do anything, I'd just get out of there. Oh yeah, I remember that flasher in France. Oh my god. Weren't you there? No, Oh, my god. Hee hee hee We didn't know what he was doing . I mean it would have to happen to me, yeah. That was sick, honestly, it really was. I was like big fat sausage. Caroline. It was. I bet you were laughing though. Uh, uh. Did you see over the top? What? Overboard, not over the top, over board. Over the top. Wicked. Over the top. But I thought it was so sad, that really made me cry. That's a different one, that's the one with erm, what d'you call it, Goldie Hawn. This one's with erm, Sylvester Stallone. Oh that boy,. Settle down please. How old is he? How old is he? Do you know his name? What is it? David. David what? Oh, he's lovely ain't he? from the A film. It's called Angel of Fear, it's really good. And you're going to see it, right? Mm hmm. if he's the one. It's so funny right, they kill her husband, I want to see Alive. Yeah, so do I. Alive? Yeah it's about, it's a true story It's got this man right, and they killed him just to get the diamonds, and now she's acting as a , and she's killing them. But she's not them but she's killing them. Did you see erm, blind evidence or something? Blind justice, blind evidence. The one about the blind woman. It wasn't on, it was on last week I think. It's about this woman who's blind right, and they killed her husband to get the erm, jewels, you know, and erm, you know, 'cause she she, she can like tell, you know, she was gonna find the killers, you know, and people were saying that 'cause she's blind Oh, yeah I saw that. There was this man, he was raping women, 'cause he raped a woman in a lift. Oh no, I didn't see that, my mum was telling me about it. She was, the woman was blind. Yeah. And she was gonna erm, give evidence. And there was erm,saying that, can't give any evidence. Have you got it on tape? No. Oh, I wanna see that. What was it called? Blind justice? Blind evidence? Blind something. Can someone rescue me, from . From who? He's rubbish. Lovely. He looks so horrible in there. She, she looks I don't know how could like him, d'you know that? He was disgusting. I put It just makes me want to vomit the way she does that. What? Oh, oh, he's lovely, and disgusting.. that thing on Friday. I know, really late ain't it? I know, I can't believe it. That's how I do mine. Yes I know, I've got a ladder in my tights. Thank you. I just can't stop loving you. D'you like them? Oh, maybe. No. No. Can't stop loving you I want to see Dracula. mm, hmm. And I surely I wanna see Malcolm X I heard that was some breakdown. This is a woman in love Yeah. That made me cry, when he erm, when they killed Bill Wheaton Did What was that in in? Toy Soldiers. Oh, that was . I know, he's a bit thick ain't he. That, that made me cry. When he died? Yeah. D'you see Memphis Belle? Yeah. We saw it in school. Oh, yeah, yeah, I remember. That wasn't the Memphis Belle showing on the Monday, that was the Making or something. Mmm, mmm. true story? Mmm. Exaggerated though. Like you know, at the end of they're coming in to landing and they're wheel's don't come down or something? Mmm. Well, that never really happened. It weren't half falling apart. What? Yeah that made me cry, I was really sad But that guy's a bit of a sap ain't he? The way he's always crying. Yeah that's what I did with mine. This is a half day, right?needs a full day That was really good on Saturday though. Really? Give me your rubber. Oh no it's alright Did I tell you I gave that letter to Mark? Yeah. Who turned that on? What did he say? No, no, no. I only gave it to him today. All of you. Number four stands complete each one so that C is a two fold centre of rotation. Now that is half the diagram. You have to finish the diagram, and when it's finished, C will be the centre of the two-fold rotation. So you simply do that, and when it pivots about C, halfway will look like that, then it'll come back what it started off at. So use the other half of the diagram, and then when you've done the other half, the whole thing is a two-fold rotation about the centre of C. Oh, right. Have you got a rubber? You've got my rubber. Just on the floor at the front here, would you people just pick up one or two of the things that you have in front of you and hold them up above above your heads please. Oh. So that everybody behind you can see what they are. Turn them around in your hands. a minute. And what are they? Shells. Shells which have been gathered from all over the seashore. Just put that to your ear Do you hear anything? Could you, can you hear anything? You can't. I can hear a train go by. I wonder if that was . Not that one Can't hear anything. that's a razorbill. Right Shh Right. Well, good afternoon everybody. Good afternoon. Well, time for some introductions. My name is Chris. And my name is Ivan. Hello. Some of you may know Ivan already. Me. You do? Well you are very fortunate people. But none of you will know my friend over here whose name is Donald. Hello. Hello Donald. Wh who I think is a friend of Noddy's. At any rate, he is got very big ears, and I'll tell you why. Because he goes around the country with his tape recorder finding out what's going on. And he's very interested in collecting would you believe not just stories Shells. Not shells, but words. Oh. And he's collecting lots of words to put into a very large book. But he's not a spy. He's a gatherer and a sharer of words. Just as you might be a gatherer and sharer of stories. Are you, any of you, gatherers of stories? Some of you are. Well I've got some stories that I'd like to share with you but there's a condition. If I tell you a story you'd have to agree to tell it to somebody else. Do you think you could do that? Yes. No I couldn't. You couldn't? Well will you try and listen to these stories and see if you think there's one that you like that you might like to share? Mm. Alright. Now the first story that I've been asked to tell specially comes not from this country we'll just let our lads here get dressed because you, you knew that the story was gonna come from a very hot country did you? No. You took your clothes off for it. Well the story that I have to tell you to begin with comes all the way from a very hot and very large continent. Does anybody know any large continents where it's a very very hot place? Oh the centre line of the earth. What's that called, the centre line of the earth? Mm D'you know? I can't remember The equator. The equator. Well done. Is that the word you were thinking of? Yeah. Great, you took the word out of her brain. Put it back later. A hot country which has the equator running through it. The country I'm thinking of is Africa. Oh that place. Right. Would you like to hear a story from Africa? Yeah. Alright. Some of you may know this story. I wonder if you do? It's the story all about a man who had two very nice daughters. An excellent choice. The man's name was Mufaro . And he had two daughters, and their names were Manyara and Nyasha . Mufaro was a very proud father. Both his daughters were very beautiful and he also thought they were very wise. But Manyara, when she was alone with her sister Nyasha, was not always very nice to her. She bullied her. One day she said, I'll become the queen and then you'll have to do everything I say. You can be my servant. Alright said Nyasha. If that's what's going to happen I'd be pleased to work for you. But don't go around being so cross. Everybody likes you better than they like me said Manyara, the elder sister. That's not true, people like you as well said Nyasha. But don't go around being cross or you'll only make enemies for yourself. Nyasha never told her father that Manyara was being nasty to her because she didn't want to upset him. Nyasha had one place where she was very very happy though. Outside their little house she had a little plot of land. And that's where she did her gardening. She grew yams she grew millet she grew vegetables and sunflowers and the food she shared with all the family. And one day when she was working in her little garden slithering between the vine yams there came a green snake. Now in Africa you must be careful of snakes because some of them are poisonous. But Nyasha knew this snake and she wasn't afraid. My friend,Nyoka come to me she said. You are very welcome here. You will keep away all the little creatures that would like to eat my vegetables. You can come here any time. And she made a little dint in the ground which filled with some water and became a little pool for the snake to drink out. As she worked in her garden Nyasha, who was so happy, sang a song. Not only to herself, not only to the vegetables but also to Ny And she pulled up the weeds and she pulled up the teasels. And she gathered the vegetables . And every time she sang her song the people knew that she'd be coming back . And that's the reason they believed why her vegetables and her yams grew so . One day a messenger came from the great city more than half a day's journey away across the river, to say that the great king had decided that he would like to have a wife. And a proclamation went out to everyone who lived far and near to say that he was looking not only for a beautiful wife, but also the most worthy wife that could be found. And he wanted all the girls who were interested to come to the great city. Manyara took her father to one side. Father she said, please don't send Nyasha. She would be so lonely to be without you. It would break her heart to have to go away, even to be wife to a king. I tell you what father, I'm your eldest daughter, I will go to the city, and I will become queen. And then you will have Nyasha to look after you. My child, said Mufaro her father, that is very kind of you but the king is the person who is going to choose. He is the one who'll decide who is most worthy, so you must both go. And that is what was decided upon. Well, that night everyone went to sleep because if there was going to be a wedding everybody in the village would surely have to go. And everybody knew that that would be a great journey. But Manyara was not happy. She got up at night and she set off towards the city all by herself, travelling through the forest. She had never travelled alone through the forest at night before. And she was a little worried. And she was a little afraid. There were animals who lived in the forest who went out hunting only at night. She set off with only a little food and she hadn't gone far when a small boy appeared right in the middle of the road. Please, he said, I am so hungry. May I have some food. Boy, she said, you're in my way. Get out of my way. I am going to the city. I am going to become your queen. Move. Now! And she brushed past him and continued down the road until she came to a place where two paths crossed and there was a little clearing. In the middle of the clearing, on a stone, sat an old woman who smiled at her and said hello Manyara. You're very welcome. Take that road to the city but be careful. The trees may bend and seem to laugh at you. Do not laugh back. And when you get further towards the city, on a little rise of the land, you'll meet a man with his head under his under his arm. Be careful. And do not be rude to him in any way. Goodbye. How do you know my name? Said Manyara. And my journey is no business of yours. You foolish old woman. And she turned and went on down the path. And no sooner had she done that than the trees began to wave their branches towards her. And they seemed to laugh at her. Ha, she said, and laughed back as though trying to be brave, trying to be strong. But the trees still echoed in her ears. And then she came to a small rise in the land and there was a man, his head under his arm. You're in my path she said. Get out of my way. I am going to be a queen, and I do not people speak to people who displease me. And she walked around him, did not look at him. And she arrived in the city. Next morning Nyasha awoke back in her home village, the younger sister. There was great commotion outside. People were worried. People were bustling here and there. They were all looking for Manyara. Where could she be? What could have happened to her. Wait! Called someone. Here is her footprint on the path leading towards the city. She must have left already said Mufaro. We must all follow. And Nyasha and all her family and everybody from the village made a long long line and set off through the forest. They hadn't gone far when at the side of the road they saw a small boy. Little boy, she said. You look so hungry to me. Here take this food. And she offered him half of the yam that she had brought with her. Thank you, he said. And on they travelled through the forest until they came to a place where the roads crossed and there sat an old woman resting on a stone. She smiled at her. Old woman, she said you look tired. And the woman smiled but pointed at the direction that they were to go. Thank you said Nyasha. Here share my sunflower seeds with me. And she gave her a packet of sunflower seeds. And on they travelled until they reached the rise in the land. And Nyasha ran up to the top of the rise and saw the land and the city all below her. Oh father she said, this is so beautiful. I've never seen such a beautiful country in my life. Surely there must be some wonderful things happening here. Lead on said her father, and he lead the way till they came to the flowing river. Carefully they crossed the river and they made their way into the city. But no sooner had they got to the city than they heard a loud shriek of a girl's voice. And Manyara came rushing out of the temple. Don't come she said. Don't come. Stay where you are. Oh Nyasha my sister please, do not go into the temple. There is the most dreadful monster in there. He has five heads. And it's telling you about me. It's telling you all about . Nyasha said don't worry my sister. We must not be afraid. We have come here to see the king and we must all go into the temple. Her father Mufaro comforted his eldest daughter. While Nyasha bravely went into the temple and there sitting on the throne that was made only for the chiefs there sat not a king not a prince A queen. not a man A snake? not a woman but a small, green snake. Nyoka said Nyasha. What are you doing here? And the snake spoke to her. I am not just a snake he said. For I am indeed and as he spoke he changed into a young, handsome man The prince. with beautiful black skin and a lovely smile on his face. I am your king, he said. But I am also Nyoka, your snake. I am also the boy who you met in the jungle. I am also the woman who sat at the crossroads. And I know you to be beautiful and to be most worthy to be my wife. Will you please become my queen? And Nyasha agreed. What a wedding there was to be. The king's mother and sister took her to their hut and they prepared the finest clothes for her. And she baked some bread with the millet flour that she had brought from her own garden. And there was a marriage. And there was a great feast. And their father became the happiest man in the whole kingdom. Nyasha lived with Nyoka her husband in the palace. And Manyara worked as their servant. That story comes from the Shona people of South Africa. And the names in the story are very important. The father's name was Mufaro. And in the Shona language that means happy man. Nyoka in Shona means a No. It means a snake. I didn't know that you spoke African languages but you do now. It means a snake. But what do you think the girls' names meant? I've written it under here so I'm not going to hold it very close. What do you think the oldest girl's name meant? Her name was Manyara. What do you think she was like? Their father was certainly a very happy man. Shake. Ashamed. Ashamed. You can read very well can't you? Did you read it from here? Did you? It doesn't matter. I saw some of it. Well done. It doesn't matter. Manyara means ashamed. Could you think of any other words that we could use to describe Manyara the eldest sister? What was she like? Nasty. Nasty, yes. Anything else? You thought she was wicked? Horrid? Put your hands up please and then I'll know who to hear. Despicable. Despicable. Brave. Sorry? Brave. Brave? You thought she was brave. Why was she brave? she went in the woods. Because she went in the jungle all alone? Yes. Very good. Er horrid? Horrid. Yes. Nasty. Nasty. Sorry? I forgot. It doesn't matter. Put your hand up again when you remember again. Selfish. Selfish. Yes, quite right. That's, you tell me one. Horrid. Yes. A bully. Yes. I think she was a bit of all those things. Sorry? herself. She always thought of herself. Quite right. got no manners. She had no manners. Yes you're all absolutely right. Just sit still. Put your hands up if you've got something to say then we can hear. Scary. Scary? Yeah. She might have been if she was going at you wouldn't she? And what were you going to say? Ill-mannered. Ill-mannered. Quite right. Silly. Silly. And rude. Rude. She didn't think of anyone else except herself. Quite right. Thank you very much indeed for saying that. Yes. And her name Manyara meant ashamed. But what about the younger girl who became the queen? Her name was Nyasha. Have you read this one? No. Have you read this one? You haven't. Alright. Well now what d'you think that name would mean? What was she like, Nyasha? The younger girl. The girl who worked in the garden. Nice. Merry. Merry. Oh I like that word. Kind. Kind. Yes. Nice. Put your hand up first and then we'll know who to listen to please. Nice. Yes. I like that. Have you got a word for her? I want everybody to give me a word for the younger, younger girl. Yes everybody. You sit on your bottom first, you're kneeling up. I'm gonna to speak to you in a minute. kind. Kind. Yes. Generous. Generous. Someone's not scared. Someone who's not scared. Yes what's the word for someone who's not scared? Brave. A brave person. Yes. Friendly. Friendly. Yes. She says thank you and please. Quite right. Do you? Excellent. Erm forgotten now. Bother. Sorry, come and . Give me another one. Yes, what was your word you were gonna say? Sorry? She was okay. She was okay. What do we mean when we say okay? That that she's not too nice and she's not too horrible. She's not too nice, she's not too horrible. Yes. Cos okay can mean lots of things can't it? What were you gonna say? She thinks of other people. Quite right. Yes. And what were you gonna say? Helpful. Helpful. Yes, good. She wasn't rude. She wasn't rude. She was dead canny I reckon. What's What were you gonna say? Where you just having a little stretch? It doesn't matter, if you haven't got a word don't worry. Right. Everybody sit still for a minute and what were you gonna say? Gentle. Gentle. That's a lovely word too. I wish people would come up and say things like that Generous. The name, and generous the name Nyasha actually means mercy. Well it's got some different meanings that and you may be able to talk about that another time with your teacher. And I will leave this with you here so you can leave that for another time. Cos teachers have got so many things to think about towards the end of term. Well that story came all the way from Africa. Would you like to hear another story? Yes. You, you would? I tell you what, would you like to just go an sit behind on that chair over there and you'll be more comfortable. Just you. You take your legs with you. Alright? Then you've got nobody to bump into, over there. Good. I don't want You, you don't? Right, you go to sleep now, alright? Are you asleep? Oh dear. Cos this next story that I would to share with you is about a boy who I must have everybody sitting on their bottoms all alone please. And try not to touch anybody else during the story. Alright? Good. Now this story is about a boy who lived with his mother. I don't know when this story star are you ready boys? No. Yeah. Can you sit nice and still please, on your bottoms, without touching anybody next to you. I don't know when this story started but it certainly happened a long time ago. It wasn't in your time, and it wasn't in my time. But it was a time when the boy and his mother, who lived in a little cottage just outside the town, had to earn their living from growing their own vegetables and doing what they could to help other people in order to make a living. He liked the cottage they lived in very much indeed. He liked the garden that they had very much indeed. He liked the path to the town. He liked the countryside all around. And he was so happy that he said to his mother one day, mother I want to live for ever. Oh my goodness she said, I can't help you there. You'll need to go and get some advice from the head wife at the end of the village. And at the end of the village there lived an old woman who was very very wise and said if you want to live for ever then you must speak to the person who's the oldest person I know. Go and speak to the old man of the woods. So up to the woods and there in the woods he heard the sound of an axe. Now do you know what the sound of an axe is like? and trees. Old man he said, can you help me please? And the old man stopped and put his axe down. I want to live for ever t said the boy. Ah, said the old man. I'm going to live for as long as this forest remains standing. And it was a huge forest and it went for ever. And he put his axe into the tree again and the boy thought he's gonna chop down all these trees soon. Is there anybody else please who's going to live for a long time? Ah said the old man of the woods, there's the old man of the lake. And he is higher up the hill. So the boy climbed up the hill till he came to an enormous lake. Then in the lake an old man came up from under the water and took a great scoopful of water and drank deeply. The boy had never been more surprised in his life. Old man, he said, do you live here? I do said the old man who's hair was almost down to his waist. And I shall live here said the old man until I have drunk this whole lake dry. The lake was enormous and very very deep. And the old man drank again. Oh said the boy, you seem so thirsty. Eventually you'll have eaten and drunk all this lake. Is there anybody who's going to live for even longer than that? Ah said the old man, there's one other person. It could be the old man of the mountains. Go and ask him. And so he climbed to the mountains and there, high in the mountains, in an old stone building lived a man with hair down below his waist. Old man are you gonna live for a long time? I am he said. I shall live here until these mountains crumble into the sea. Oh that's a long time said the boy. Can I come and live with you and help you? You may, said the old man. And he did. But after many many years, the boy suddenly got worried. I want to see my mother he said. I want to go and see the place where I was brought up, my little house, the garden and the road to town. I want to go back and visit her. No said the old man. Don't do that. Stay here with me or you might be sorry. The boy thought for a mom Me. I don't. Not me, not me. Not you? Why would you like to live for ever? What would you want to do? What would you want to do? Go on holiday. Go on holiday. Where to? Different countries? Lovely. What would you do if you could live for ever? I'd go to Tenerife and stay there for ever. Why, what would you do in Tenerife? Er Play on the beach. What would you do? Go in the caves. Which caves? Shh I'm listening to somebody else. Put your hands up and then I'll be able to listen to you. I'm listening to somebody else now. Sit down please, on your bottom. The cave what my dad chose is where I'd go. Really? Yes. a good father there. Well done. And what did you find in the caves? Erm some of the things what you get. Wonderful. Who else could tell me something else they'd like to do if they could live for ever? What about you? To see what kind of animals there was next. To see what animals came next. Yes. Good answer. And what about you. You'd live in? You'd live in, in Disneyland would you? Why would you like to go to Disneyland? To see all Sorry? They have loads of rides. Loads of rides. Yes there would be wouldn't there? And would you g like to go on rides for ever and ever and ever? Yes. You wouldn't get tired? No. No? I would just My goodness me. What about you? Just a minute. I'd like to see the people that came next. You'd like to see the people that came next? Would you? And what about you? I see Disneyland. You would would you? Good. Yes lots of people would like to see Disneyland. What about you? Shh shh I'm doing some listening now. Shh. I would like to stay the same age so I could play football. Football for ever? But you wouldn't have any teeth if you stayed the same age. You'd still have your tooth missing. You'd like to stay your age and play football for ever? Oh what an interesting wish. And what about you? I'd like to You'd like to help the animals? What a very nice person you must be. Good. I would like to go to EuroDisney and stay there. To EuroDisney? My goodness. What a lot of travelling you've all got to do. helping animals. Really? How nice. Good, even the fierce ones? Yeah. Even the poisonous ones? You don't mind sharks? Ooh you're a brave person to what about you? What were you gonna do? What would you like to do? Sorry? I've forgotten. You've forgotten. Alright. And two more people over here I want to talk to. Shh shh shh. I'd like to I'd like to in the world. Look after everything in the world? Very useful. To see the what, sorry? The carrot dance? Characters. The characters. Oh I understand. Right. Excellent. Good. Right I would like to be a air pilot for ever. An air pilot? Alright. Just si now just ge just hands down for just one minute please. Cos I've just got to check are we alright up to three. Up to three, right. Listen. There's time just to squeeze in one more story if you'd like to hear it. Sorry? Some people say yes and some people no, say no . Well Ivan has brought along this harp which is actually an Irish harp which has come a very long way. I've played it before. You've played a harp before? Yes, that one. Excellent. Well if Ivan falls asleep will you take over? Excellent. Good. Would you like to hear a story that has a harp? Yes. Sit down on your bottoms everybody now please. And we'll see what you think of this story here. In Scotland by the shore there lived a fisherman who's name was Angus. He'd been a fisherman all his life. He had his own little boat and do you know where farmers make farrows on the land, the only mark that was left behind by Angus was the mark where he pulled his boat up on to the shore every day that the weather was not too rough. The thing that he loved most of all in the whole world was the sea. And he would sing to himself in his house or in his boat the song which his father had taught him many years ago. He sang about his love of the sea. Every now and then Angus would go into the town. He'd drink a dram with his friends. But they would say to him Angus, isn't it about time you found yourself a wife? Someone to share your life with? He shook his head . I could never love anyone who wasn't like the sea. Wild free. He loved the sea so much. One day, it was close to midsummer, a day not unlike today. Angus had been to the town and he made his way back to his cottage along the shore. As he went he heard the music of the sea. he heard the sounds of some other voices singing on the shore. As he came up over the rise he thought he heard a beautiful song. Some girls were dancing and singing on the beach, leaping in and out of. As they played and as they sang and as they danced they made no mark on the sand at all. Angus was entranced. He hadn't heard such a beautiful sound he hadn't seen such a beautiful sight. As he moved his way down on to the beach, he clumsily knocked the stones and the girls saw him and rushed to the rocks where they picked up not clothes, but sealskins which they wrapped around their bodies and then dived back into the sea. Except for one girl who ran towards the rock where Angus was leaning, not just on the rock but also on a sealskin. Please, she said that's my skin there. Let me have it back. I must go with my people. I must have it. Please give it back to me. The skin was so beautiful to touch and the girl had such a beautiful face. No he said, I can't give it back to you, you're the person that I've been looking for all my life. Please, please come and live with me. Please come and be my wife. I must go back to the sea, she said. That's where I live. But Angus had hold of the skin. And although she was sad, she knew that she had to go with him and she did. Up the shore they walked. And she shuddered when her feet first touched the grass. Back into the cottage he showed her the way and gave her so The children had heard this song many times but they were always sad that it sounded such a lonely song. And while they played in the barn and while their mother sang the girl found something behind the haystack. It was soft, softer than anything she had ever touched before. She held it to her face and it was so beautiful. She told her brothers and they too put their faces into the soft sealskin. Mother, mother they called, come and see what we've found. And they all held out the sealskin towards her. Oh my children she said. She dropped the bowl that she was using to the floor. Thank you. She put the sealskin round her body and she kissed each of her children. And she hugged her daughter very tight. Never forget me my dear she said. I will always help you in your future life. But boys you must all tell your father that he must look after you now. Goodbye. And she took the skin and she ran down to the shore and she put on the skin, dived back into the sea. A seal's head bobbed up from the waves and Angus was pulling on his oars, heaving the skiff back to the shore. A seal called out to him, goodbye Angus, goodbye. Look after the children for me. Farewell, farewell. The seal dived away and a moment later two seals appeared together in the water and swam away together. The children told their father what had happened but he knew. But whenever Angus and his daughter went out in the boat fishing for their lives to keep themselves fed, it seemed that a seal swam in front of the boat and lead them towards the places where the fishes were thickest in the sea in that part of the coast. And they never forgot their mother. And they never forgot how important the sea was in their lives. Now that is the story of a seal wife. Yeah. Thank you all for listening. Well. That's the end of our stories. And somebody has got a question. Yeah, my dad works in Scotland. Well I never. I wonder if he's ever seen a seal? And there are lots of people who live in Scotland who tell stories all about the seals. Have any of you ever seen a seal? Shh. Good. Now one or two people have got something they want to ask. So let's listen please. And those people who've got their hands up boys! Can you be quiet please, so that we can hear the people who want to speak. I think before we ask any other questions, we'll ask everybody to just have a stretch. Everybody two arms and a big stretch and everybody have a big yawn. Ooh Ooh. Now is there anybody here who was born as an animal? Everyone was. And so were you born as an animal? Yes I was. What animal are you most like? A dinosaur. A dinosaur. That's very interesting. I'm a monkey. Sorry? A human, you're a human being? Alright. I just wanted to make sure . Right so everybody, listen please. Boys. Donald has still got his microphone here and he wants to hear what everybody's got to say. And if we all talk at the same time, he can't hear anything. He's come a very long way to see what you've got to say as well as hear the stories. Now what did you want to say at the back? Cla some of class seven enjoyed the story that much story about seals before we came in. You've heard a story about seals before? Yes. This afternoon we had a story called the seal king wasn't it? It was all about Really. Yeah. It wasn't the same story but it was a story about seals. What a coincidence. What a strange coincidence wasn't it? Oh absolutely. And what happened in your seal story? I'm doing some listening over here. A fisherman caught a seal. A king seal out of the sea. A king seal? Mhm. And what happened to the seal? And erm Shh shh shh. We're listening. That's a very good story. And those stories are very very old. And for many many years nobody wrote those stories down at all. So the fact that you've heard those seal stories, two different ones, is very important. Particularly if you've written them down. You're not supposed to still be yawning. Alright now I just wonder if it might be worthwhile just some people going back to the classroom now or some stay or? children class . Children in class will you sit down for two more minutes. all those people going now music. Girls, I want everybody down please on the floor. Now, I've got some questions that I'd like to ask you. Everybody sitting on the floor please. Everybody sitting on the floor. That's I've got one or two questions I'd like to ask you and I wonder what your reply is gonna be. Now, in order for Donald to be able to hear the replies as well, we must only have one person talking at a time. I want you just to close your eyes for one minute everybody please. And I want you to think about the sound that you, not touching anybody! Sit down on your bottom and close your eyes please! Everybody else can do it except for you. Now, close your eyes please very carefully. I want you to think not just about the story of the seal wife no, on your bottom eyes closed. I want you to think about the sounds that you heard. The sounds that Angus heard and the sounds that his wife heard and the songs that they sung. Now how could you describe those sounds? What did they sound like to you? When you've got an idea or something to say, put your hand in the air please. What did those sounds sound like? Alright. Open your eyes everybody. What could those sounds sound like to you? Gentle. Gentle. The song sounded beautiful and lonely. Beautiful and lonely the song. Soft. Soft. forgotten. Doesn't matter. Wavy. Wavy? That's interesting. What were you gonna say? Can't remember. Quite right, it was very wavy wasn't it? That's a very good word to use, that one. Musical . Musical. Now I want you to think about what sort of what sort of thing you mean by musical because we know it was musical. But what did it feel like? Somebody said wavy, and that was a shape almost. There was a feel to that as well because it was moving a lot wasn't it? Hands up first please. It sounded like the sea. Like the sea. And what does the sea sound like to you? I know. I know. Shh shh. Everybody might think something different. Is it a gentle sound or a fierce sound? A soft sound. A soft sound. Right. What were you gonna say? A kind sound. I thought it was a rolling sound. I thought it was a rough sound. You thought it was rough did you? Shh shh shh. Put your hands up if you want to speak please, and then we won't have two people talking together. Right. What did you want to say? Tender. Sorry? Tender. Tender? That's a very interesting word to use. Yes. Why did you say tender? What made you think of a tender thing to say? Sorry? Gentle. Gentle. Gentle, yes that's another nice thing to do. Sorry? Bit louder please. Tingly. Tingly? Yes, that's a good word to use too. Erm what? Sealy? Sealy? Yeah that's interesting. That's a new word to me, a sealy sound. Alright. Soft. A soft sound. Alright. Another job for your memories to do. Sit on your bottoms please. I want you to think back to the story of Mufaro Mufaro And the two girls I beg your pardon? Er what story ? The story of the African sisters Oh yes. who went to the king. The older sister, Manyara, left her village and went all alone through the forest to the city, all by herself. What was that jungle like? What did it feel like? What did it sound like? Who can think of a word to describe that jungle and that girl all by herself. You can use more than one word if you want. I want everybody to think of a word please. Can you think of a word to describe that jungle where the girl went? Well you kept thinking about it. We might ask to hear some of those sounds again in a minute . Scary. Scary. Well you can just say it again. Scary. That's fine. Very very scary. But, tell me again, later. Windy. Windy. A bit windy maybe. Spooky. Spooky. Rustly. Rusty. That's interesting. No rustly. Rustly. I beg your pardon. Rustly. Terrifying. Terrifying. Yes. Echoy. Echoing. Yes. Scared. Really really scared. Scared. Creepy. Creepy. Boys, can you think of some words to describe it? Well if you can play, you can also think. So I'm gonna ask both of you for a word specially in a moment to describe what it was like for that girl in the jungle. Scary In a moment. Spooky. Have you got a word ? Scary. Scary. We've had scary already. Tangly. Tangly? Oh that's an interesting word. Tangly. Oh yes, what's yours? Er dark? It was certainly dark. And would you like to be in that jungle? No. I would. Yeah, yeah. All by yourself? with their heads under their arms? Yeah. Not now. I'm still listening. I'm still listening. Shh shh shh. I'm still listening. Three more words. Horrible. Horrible. Erm I forgot. I forgot. Frightening. Frightening and Oh yes. Sorry? Sometimes when it's a little bit silent it can be frightening can't it? And sorry, what did you want to say over here please? What was, did you have a word? Right. Alright, we'll ask them. Did you have a word as well to describe what it was like in that jungle? Cos I think you're good at words. I've got a feeling that you're very good at talking. How would you describe, if you'd been through that jungle what would you have said? Right let's hear the boys' two words then. What word were you gonna say for the jungle? Terror. I've struck dumb this cracked it. Isn't that strange. We've cracked it. The first time ever. If you don't tell us this word now First time and haven't got a word. you're not allowed to speak for the rest of the week. he's hiding over there. No he's not hiding cos he's just at the back. And what's your word gonna be? not very good at hiding. Dark. . Pardon? What's your word going to be? horrid. Horrid. Alright fine. dark. Dark. Well done. And your last word? Spiky. Spiky. Very good indeed. Hands down please. Now listen Will you please stop We just want to say thank you very much to all of you for coming and listening. But there's one thing that you have to remember. I said at the beginning that you were gonna come and listen to our stories you also had to tell other people the stories as well. Well, next time you're babysitting you can tell the baby. So we've only got one thing more to do for you. Everybody. We've only got one thing more that we can give to you and that's a good clap to show you how much we've appreciated you listening. Thank you very much indeed. Thank you Thank you. Alright. And Donald's gonna go and take away all those words and he's gonna put them all into a dictionary all by himself. Right now everybody, without making any other sound and leaving the shelves just were they are, can you all stand up. Don't move just stand up. Who told you the facts of life? Did they tell you the truth? Or are you still working it out for yourself? Sex education used to be whispered, sniggered and gossiped about, today, we're more enlightened, or are we? Exactly what should be taught, to whom, by whom, and when still provokes heated debate. So, we thought we'd find out what young people want to know, and what they think of the education they've had. After all, this hundred young women have all benefited from the open, healthy, society that's developed over the last few decades, or have they? Let's start with a question. Have you had formal sex education? Button one for yes, and button two for no. And in this hundred, amazingly, twenty two people say no! Seventy eight said yes. Let's start with the yes's,wha what was it, the formal sex education, you seventy eight? What have you had and where? Sex in, section six in a biology class about plants flowers and that That was it! That was it? Yeah. Plants and flowers? Yeah. Didn't you even got on to frogs and rabbits? No. Flowers. What about so And that's all anybody got was section six, this dreaded section six which we were taught at the end of the year! And that's all anybody got in my school. How about humans? No. No, just about plants ! Seriously? Yeah. Beside you. Yeah, we had erm a class, an actual sex education class, every week for a year. Our biology teacher took it, but it was it was also so , it was the facts about erm sex, abortion contraception, but we also, also talked about the emotional side of things. So, would you say it was quite good? Yeah, it was quite. I mean, of course there were things that were missed out I suppose, but also, I suppose, we were quite young, so it may have quite embarrassing and we didn't want talk about certain things. Was that the case or Round about twelve or thirteen, I suppose they kind of Do you think you were too young to talk about the th the emotional side Yeah. of it? Probably because most of us weren't really, well, quite a few of us anyway weren't thinking about sex at that time, so I suppose it was kind of you know, you just started your periods and everything and you Yeah. you're not exactly thinking about sex. Okay, so two not absolutely satisfactory er experiences there. Has any ,do has anybody had formal sex education of those seventy eight who that it was very we , it was well taught, that it was good? And you got a yes? Erm, sex education at school was Mm. similar to well the girl mentioned earlier on, that, since then I've had within the last couple of years Mm. erm, I do voluntary work for the Brook Advisory, er through the peer educators and that has been very erm beneficial for for myself and for the work that er, we do with What youths. Wha what what is that? I mean te tell me, tell us more about that. Well we go to youth clubs or schools and, talk to youths from eight to eighteen about contraception erm drugs and other topics of concern, abortion, homophobia, things like that. What do you think of that? I mean I I, I don't know, what do yo , what do you think sex education should be? Is it, is it important at all? It wasn't, it wasn't much of a subject when I was young, is it, is it a necessary part of the school curriculum? Is it something that should be taught at home? What do you think? I mean,wha , those of you who have children wha , what do you, what do you hope for them? Yes? I think it's very important. It's important people know the real facts about it instead a lot of this playground chatter. I also think it's important that people have this sort of emotional side of it taught to them as well, you're often taught like the straight, you know, the wee sperm and the wee egg come together and you get a baby, but you don't, not taught about the emotional side of it a lot Mhm. of the time, I think that's really important. Is it possible to teach that. Yes I think it is. I think it should be done a lot younger as well. Primary age? Yeah, primary I think, roundabout primary four or five, cos that's when they start talking about it, and that's where you start getting all the the wrong things told to you in the playground, I mean I know that's what happened to me. Really? So I mean, so wha , when, I mean how old when you found out, and who told you? Oh! I was about, I dunno about primary four age and someone in the playground, I think it was can't remember exactly what I was told, obviously, but it was something silly, you know, like really dirty and everything which Yeah. it isn't. Yeah. It's not a dirty thing . Yep. Yes? Yes? There. Oh, erm , I just want to say how can a four or five year old er, understand the concepts and the emotions involved in sexual relationships? Well they don't have to know If it's just erm exactly what it is, but th we should be told that it's not a dirty thing, it's not a bad thing. You know what I mean? At th , a lot of people are just told that it's so dirty, which is isn't and I Mm mm. just think should, you should get across that it isn't dirty. Mhm. Isn't it, but you don't you think that's more so for females than it is for males, the fact that it is such a dirty thing that, that applies more to females than it does, to males? I think it applies to both sexes. Can you avoid the kind of dirty, sniggering aspect though? I mean, is it possible to to, to have a holy, healthy attitude to, to sex? I think erm we could have a much healthier aspect to it if it was taught to u in a healthier way, I mean Mm. so many of the teachers that teach it are far too embarrassed to broach the subject sensibly, you know, and they just pass it on and so kids don't treat it sensibly. I feel we're expecting But don't you an awful lot from teachers, you know, we're just expecting that they know everything about sex education. I feel that teachers must be educated, if they can education us. Yeah. Any other views? Yes? That last point, you were saying about, you know giggling and laughing about it, I think, that that's a part of it, I mean sex can be fun Mhm. so what's wrong with er it shouldn't be dealt with in a like a really serious way, it should be fun for everybody and what's wrong with having a laugh about it as well? What about home? I mean er, I wonder in fact I mi I might as you this question, have you discussed er sex with your parents? Button one for yes, and button two for no. And, in this hundred sixty one, yes thirty nine, no. Does, do those votes surprise you? Do you think er yes? I think that everyone seems to pass the buck, I mean the parents think, oh they'll learn it at school and the teachers think, oh co they should be learning it from their parents, and yo , you never learn it from anyone just from your friends. Yes? I think erm sexuality begins with sensuality and therefore it should begin in the home, and it should be exaggerated at school, I mean, it should helped but fundamentally it's with your parents or guardians whoever, who should begin it. Is that your experience? Yeah, I mean I'm I'm very lucky because my parents are very liberal, and I mean they discussed sex with me quite early on and I've never had a problem discussing it with them. But that's not the case with everyone er I mean un unfortunately I wish it was. Yes? Yeah, that i , is precisely, it isn't the case with everyone, I mean, I think that what the girl was saying up there about the groups going round, it's a great idea! It was the same in the biology, biology teacher at our school, it was very hush hush and very embarrassed. Mm. I think if you got maybe a twenty five year old who came to your school for a week and got you in a small group and talked about it, it would be great on a one to one basis. Mhm. Erm,a , my mother didn't speak to me about sex until I was pregnant! You know which I I i wa , I wasn't totally embarrassed about it but I just we , I think she was, you know, that sort of generation and that era, which I hope with my son it will be totally different, like come to me and say anything you like, you know? Yeah. I'm a liberal parent. Yes? Yeah, there's probably two points I would want to say, one is that, what about the children and young people tha that refuse to go to school? And where's the education for them? I think the other one, about the woman across there said about, should start at home with sensuality and stuff and many of the young women that I work wi , I've I've heard very negative experiences of sex Mhm. through sexual abuse, and I think we spend a lot of our time, and I think even for teachers, we spend a lot of our time undoing a lot of the damage of helping young people, undo a lot of damage that's done by sex. I don't think they view it as a dead happy, enjoyable, fun thing and it's something that that they do if you say, is really serious and Mm. something that is nay er positive for them. It doesn't matter, I mean, where or whom you've been told by, as long as you've been told you can take precautions later in life from sexual diseases and and getting yourself pregnant. Mhm. What comes into sex education? I mean,th tha tha that's interesting what you said, because you said how to avoid sexual diseases and to er avoid getting pregnant, are those the basics of sex education or or what more would put onto the list of things that you would teach? Yes? I think when somebody teaches it they teach it in the premise that everybody they're talking to is heterosexual. What about people that are homosexual? What about like contraception should be integral part of it, and abortion and the options open to you, but I think it's very important that we are taught it, we're taught it in a heterosexual basis, and that's just not the case, and that just alienates people any more, really more from a very early age. Mhm. I'm still doing sex education at schools and look like it's changing a lot cos there's a lot more to do there, a lot more emphasis on Aids, that's why they've got to ki , teach kids in primary school, we've got to prevent them from getting a disease. Mhm. I was gonna say about sex education that when I was learning at school, it's also very male dominated erm it was, I mean you were talking about erm what's i li , the differences between males and females learning about sex education and wha , and we were learnt about the the man having pleasure, we were taught about the man having the erection and the man having the orgasm, I mean, we didn't even know what a clitoris was! Th I mean, I've never even heard of the term clitoris, and a friend of mine thought her clitoris was actually her epiglottis, I mean it just got the whole the thing just got completely confused. And that's when But do you think it's appropriate to teach sex in that kind of detail to to school children? Erm To tau , to teach pe , school children about sexual pleasure for instance, er er er rather than the biological facts of reproduction? I think it's part and parcel of sex, and so, yes, I do think it is very important and I think it is a process that does have to, have to be started very young, and is on-going throughout our education. Now I would guess that goes further that most school curricular. I mean has anyone learnt about sexual pleasure, at er, at school? Or about er, the male and female orgasms? Well obviously you learn about the male orgasm because that's what creates a baby but I think she was right, the female orgasm is never mentioned but it's there or should be. Ha! Yep? I think it's very important that er females should be taught that it's pleasurable for them as well, you Mm. haven't just to literally lie back there and the man says what happens, when it happens, and they're to do as they're told sort of thing because that obviously develops sexual abuse, women being raped, and attitudes that lead towards these things. It's very important you're taught that, er such feelings as respect, love, emotions all come into this and a woman has a right to say no, if she doesn't Yeah. want this, and it's not up to a man to decide what happens. But it seems that that isn't what's being taught, and therefore,in information about that comes, well either via your own experience or talking with friends or reading womens' magazines or I mean whe , where do we actually get our education from? Learn through Like you said more through magazines than I did at school, because in school I was taught nothing about pleasure, it was all very biological with a diagram of the male and the female, exactly what happened, there was nothing about er, sexually transmitted diseases, pleasure or abortion, contraception, nothing mentioned, only the mere basics. Now, normally in this programme when we talk about womens' magazines, people are inveighing against them because they carry various advertisements that they find offensive or exploitative, but are women's magazines actually erm performing quite a useful job by filling in the gaps that that schools and parents are are failing to address? What do you think? Any, yes? I think they're a very dangerous mode of education because they provide a very stereo-typed image of everything, everybody that they're talking about if they're talking about sex, they presume to be able bodied, they're presumed to be white generally, they're presumed to be heterosexual, if they're talking about homosexual then, it's definitely male lesbians Mhm. never come into it. I'm sorry, but I think these must be in the wrong magazines! The magazines that are out today are very informative of where you can get the addresses of places to go, they give both sides of homosexuality you know, male and female as far I've seen, and definitely in the past two years or so. Now, is that our best hope, is is is is the commercial provision of womens' magazine is the best hope we have for getting in, in any information we want? I mean, in an ideal world what wha what agenda would you draw up? I don't think it's necessarily about teaching er children primarily about sex or about sexual pleasure, I think it's all, initially, about personal hygiene and then developing that into how they can make their life safer for themself , or giving them choices to say, well I can choose to become pregnant or not to become pregnant and, I think it's more about choices rather than saying orgasms and erm sexual pleasure, or Mm. telling youngsters, when they can't actually understand the concept of having sex. Mm. Yes? I think if erm, perhaps if television did something more about it you'd be able to erm, home in on the people who are excluded, erm, people who are outside school, school situations, people Mhm. who don't actually go to school. Erm, looking at certain problems, a lot of erm young women who get pregnant don't get pregnant at school, they get pregnant as soon as they leave school. Mhm. Erm, in say, an area, a a deprived area it's very often hard for women to get access to information. Basically, there's a comparison of figures that erm one pregnancy in every two hundred and fifty six in Morningside is to women under twenty, yet one in four in, in an area like Craigmiller is to women under twenty so there's a big sort of difference. And you need to access, you need to key in to certain areas as well, so television could be the ideal way to do that. But it's not doing it at the moment, although there's Well no it certainly doesn't seem to be with, one in four girls getting pregnant. Well people generally complain about sex on television so, the way it's being presented. Up there. You often find that erm television with sex and everything, they always put it on after a certain time for children go to bed. It's like, Aids and that like the glue sniffing advert, for instance, put on fo when the children go to bed, but they should be able to see that,sho , they should be able to see look, well that's putting a message across to me as well , not just the parents, to me, I'm the one that's involved and I think that if well maybe the the producers would maybe or the people that do television would maybe put i to say, seven o'clock or that, where young children primary school age can actually sit and watch it. I think if you got taught sex education in maybe, smaller groups, you know erm if they could with individual teachers Mhm. er they, you know, were people that you trust and that you could ask questions that you wouldn't be embarrassed Mhm. that'd help a lot. Yes? Erm, I think if they were more honest and open, I mean like parents and schools and stuff, it wouldn't be so difficult for people to talk about it, and there wouldn't be as many, the jokes about it. If if everybody spoke about, the communication was better then it'd be a lot easier for people that deal with it. Yeah? Beside you. I think it's just our culture as well Mm. that influences our opinions on it, you know. And, I think it's really important that sex education in schools should be taught by somebody that the pupils can relate to. Cos I know when I was at school we actually got our sex education in fourth year, and it was by a visiting lecturer, it was this wee old man about fifty, he said basically, this is a male body, this is a female body, nothing about sexuality, orgasms anything! It was terrible! So I Aha. think that's really important. I'm going back to the thing about erm and boys and Mhm. today, in school we had a two members of a family planning association and er, we were in group and we actually had the guys in our class, they're seventeen, maybe eighteen sitting laughing and sniggering between themselves! And that's at that age! And I would say, in our school we've had the Aids team in and we've talked quite a lot about sex education and they're still sniggering! They're still having their jokes between Mm mm. themselves Mm. and whatever. I don't think we're ever gonna get away from that. Why do you think that is? It's I don't know what it was, er they hardly, we were having a discussion with the doctor, erm none of them would put forward their opinions or their views or what they thought No. we're talking about abortion, who's responsibility it was, erm they just were nay prepared to put forward their opinions. Is that your common experience that that young men aren't aren't really up to this? Yeah? No. I work for the same pre project as Verity and I worked with five, fifteen, sixteen year old boys, just yesterday, and they were one of the best groups I'd ever worked with because Mhm. they were interested. And it was contraception, which as you all know, is predominantly female and they were interested like, what their partners would use, what they will use and, it was wonderful! I couldn't believe because I always thought that it was the guys that sniggered, the guys that weren't interested Mm mm. and through past experience it is changing. Was it a mixed group or er No. No, we had five sa , boys no mixed. Do you think ma , do you think maybe that's, that's one of the answers, to separate the sexes for, for these discussions or No, I think maybe if the girls had been in they might have been a bit shier and felt you know, oh we have to act you know, the lads. Yeah. You know, so maybe but Yes? I think the guys snigger because they're covering up for their embarrassment that's Mm. their way of breaking the ice and showing that they just, they, that's way of coping with it. I think that they may be frightened to speak up and that they're scared that if they say something that they don't know, like a lot of them don't know the facts, like today, in the same class as Janine across there, some of them didn't know even the very the pro , progression of the male pill or anything like that, and they did learn a few things but a again they never spoke up and they weren't interested, but I Mm. think it was because of embarrassment. Yeah? Up there. I think, you know, I think in answer to the embarrassment question, I think although it is about that erm, people are nay do, people wi on just are nay prepared to commit with information, I think, in areas there's a wealth of information and experience Mm. and people who are prepared to discuss the issue but they just don't come out the door to where erm, the people are that need the information. I Mm. think there has to be a er family planning centres have to more on the street, I think family planning clinics have got the people there who are able to go out on the street. I think the other issue is that we have to be defending erm, the family planning centres that are being closed down, like the forty or fifty in Glasgow, the thirteen in er Edinburgh,th the east of Scotland Mhm. and I think that is just gonna create you know, a bigger ignorance amongst young people erm, you know a bigger ignorance about contraception itself Mhm. which again, there is nay a hundred percent safe contraception Mhm. to prevent pregnancy, or any other disease for that matter. And I think that's something that we're gonna have to start er defending, you know, because we er er, we, we have got a wealth of experience and information it just has to be shared. You're not suggesting pregnancy's a disease there are you? For some of us, aye, yeah. A It is a disease! In Holland er, young teenagers are taught in school how to how to use condoms, now I don't know whether that's taught in schools or, or classes in Scotland,i is it? It should be! Has anyone, I mean has anyone had that experience? Yes? Well I got a video and, like, that's all we got a few videos and the video showed you how to use a condom, and that was it. And that was at school? Yeah. But that's probably more than a lot of people did, and everyone's being urged to use condoms, but how many people are actually given any instruction on how to use them? Yes? Well yesterday we actually went to to a school and you show them how to use with a condom demonstrator and allow them to touch the condoms, and in youth clubs you allow them to do practically anything with them, as long as they're returned, they can blow them up, or they can Yeah. shoot them across the room or whatever. But I think all the silliness is all part of actually adjusting to the condom, and something to do with the embarrassment that because they don't know enough about it they, they don't want to be er, seen to be silly Mm. so, they put up a front, and Mm. I think it's all part of it, that they will be silly initially, but they'll som , soon co , er come to realize that it's sensible. Mhm. In a, in our school we were shown by our guidance teacher how to put a condom and he used a banana so, that just shows you that that can happen. And we it was fourth year when we done it and we'd never been shown anything like that and it was interesting because it's the sort of fact that you you never really think about Mhm. until yo you're actually gonna do it, sort of thing which I thought it was interesting. Do you think er, as young women you have a right, on behalf perhaps, of women ten years younger than you, to suggest changes in what's happening now? You're obviously in, and the other people in the, in the Brook are er advisory peer groups, are are doing work, people are suggesting, they they they think that should be extended, what more might be done? Audrey? I think it erm it possibly could be politicized and actually funded. I was wondering if erm the girl at the back was actually a volunteer or if she was in fact, paid for her work? Because I I do know of of various different groups who are working in this field as volunteers, there's no money behind them there, and I mean i i it should be a priority, it should be given that kind of priority where Mhm. funds are made for it. Mhm. Voluntary. It is voluntary. Yeah. I mean, yes? Can I just say that, about the age thing again, erm, I also do, with the Brook Peer Group Right. and erm I went to a youth club and I I was speaking to eight year olds and they're asking about condoms cos they've seen them in the street, so it's obviously they're wanting to find out about it cos it's everywhere around them even, doesn't matter what age. And what will you tell an eight year old? Erm, well we let them and again we brought out the demonstrator and we let them touch condoms erm do anything they wanted with them as long as we got them back. But they're fi , they're going to find about it cos it's everywhere. I think one of the main points is not so much the way it's taught but who teaches it. Because, going back to the point earlier on, erm, when I was taught I say, it was a local nurse from th er, the clinic that taught us I mean I've nothi , nothing against elder women in their fifties and whatever, but I mean, there again, one, it shouldn't always be females who teach about sex, it should be males, and it should be younger people to relate Mhm. to, because, one of the main points about the embarrassing er aspect, mainly boys sniggering and giggling, whatever, maybe some girls do, but it's mainly er, males, I think a point to be made there is, it is a well known fact that boys took longer to mature emotionally than girls and I think if it was a guy a younger guy, maybe in his late twenties, early thirties teaching it, and if he had the sort of guts to turn round and the bravery to say look son, what is it you're laughing at, what's so funny? I mean Mm. you're seventeen years old, if you're old enough to have sex surely you're old enough to you know, think about it in a mature way. And it would ta , take someone like that just to make them think, yeah, well, you know what is so funny in get rid of this sort of stigma about boys being immature. I also work for the peer group for the Brook Mhm. and er, we have two boys that do it with us as well and when they come out to youth clubs with us the girls and the boys that we go and speak to love having a male there Mhm. that they can go and the boys have a good laugh with them, and the girls have a good laugh as well and it seems to work. A , any concluding thoughts on er on the future for sex education in Scotland? I'd agree that it's important Yeah. that people can make their o , they have a balanced education which allows them then to make their own choices about, that things aren't over, I mean if we've lived in a patriarchal society in which men are in power and that kin , and male sexuality maybe has come through more in sex education, those have been the issues that have been co ,ha have been given more importance and female issues have maybe been neglected a little bit and now erm, with Aids as a problem we don't want to turn out and suddenly become really homo homophobic or really, you know, right condoms, condoms, it has to be you know, you need to kind of keep the balance so that people are given the information and then have the freedom to make the choice themselves. I think they should get rid of the stigma in condoms, cos what frightens me is that in about ten years time my daughter will come and maybe ask if she can go on the pill and at least I can tell her no, use a condom there's less chance of sexually transmitted diseases, but it's my sons they won't come and ask. Yes? I think the problem is, that at the moment sex education is so arbitrary and it varies from school to school and from house to house I think they have to make it like a core part of the curriculum, make it compulsory and make it uniform throughout the country, so everybody's getting the same education, the same quality I think that'll help. Lots of good ideas. Thank you very much for discussing this and opening up watch, what is, too often a a a taboo area. I hope you found it interesting? I have. And thanks for joining us. Goodbye. There is concern about funding for the Children Act and it's too important to start scoring political points, whether there's a General Election or not t and I must admit I was off, I was off ill, off work during the week of the Tory Party Conference. It was actually something that happened before the Tory Party Conference but it didn't, it didn't actually help me recover and nearly every day, nearly every speaker actually attacked Local Government in some way. What the Children, what the Children Act does at least recognise in the Conservative Government passing the Children Act is the importance of Local Government. These are very important services and they are placed, just like care in the community will be, when it eventually is put into practice. They will actually responsibility of Local Government and er we've tried to put in here something that even Conservative Councillors could support, even though it's attacking Conservative Ministers, cos they must actually believe in Local Government to actually serve on Local Government, one would think, but er, but th the problems of under-funding are th could be very serious. During the summer we had serious problems, we had a report on children homes which erm which y'know which pointed out a few things y'know that hadn't been doing well, mainly, mainly in defence of erm because they did put in a lot of effort into fostering y'know and the children homes y'know need, as Councillor would y'know will, they did a very good job actually representing at the time. Yet I listen to the television and Virginia Bottomley with th within er hours of the r the news breaking in trying to make political capital out of, threatening to come to to inspect inspected children homes. Clearly that's what worries me about this Government's implementation of the Children Act. I mean our motion you can do with it what you will but like I say we have actually aimed to actually get something which recognises all party support for the Children Act and recognises concern about the funding. Thank you. Councillor D d I've put I've not gone too political on this and you're running me down already I don't know. There is, as has been said, all party support for the Children Act and it is nice to see the Labour Party agreeing with Conservative legislation, as with the care in the community, asking us to rush our legislation, so it makes a change for us to be united on something. Probably the Act the Act will work as a framework through which our children's futures and their needs will be of paramount importance in all our decision making. One of the key points of the Children Act being that gone are the days of parents' rights. The Children Act clearly replaces this with parents' responsibilities. I think that's one of the things that we're we're all pretty much in agreement on. What about the responsibilities of the Councillors to the children in our care? We all know the grave problems in some of our children's homes but we can't run away with the fact that er they're unique to or the problems don't exist elsewhere because we all know they do. It's nothing new, it's an age old thing. Speaking to one of the workers in one of the children's homes, said do you think that child prostitution in the children's homes is something new because it's on the front of the T and A? I've worked in these homes for fifteen years and it was going on when I first started there. So, it's it's just a problem that's come to the surface that obviously needs addressing. As custodians of the children we've a legal duty to take care of thes of the children that we in our care. One of the major problems for us, whichever Party's in in control, and I think if Councillor had gone to the press after this report was done and, rather than trying to score points and saying it's all because it's lack of Government cash, if he'd appli if he'd said, let's all get together on this, let's try and solve the problem, the problem's been going on indefinitely, let's try and s , he might have gained more credibility. But of course he came out with his usual dry diatribe of er not enough Government cash. The major problem being, if one of our children gets out of hand, one our own children, we've got our own ways of dealing with it. Some parents still give their kids a clip round the ear, some of em send the children to their room or whatever, but when the children are in care you can't do any of these things because if you lock the child in the room, if the child gets sent to the room, you're accused of pindown when there's a report done. You can't physically restrain the children. So the problem is, if your child wants to go, if one of our children wanted to go at midnight, I'm fairly sure that everybody in this Council Chamber would have quite a reasonable way of er of retaining that child in the home but of course we've all heard the stories of what happens when the unruly children in the children's homes want to go out at midnight and I do think we we have a problem because with the report and the new legislation, we're in the situation where there's plenty of advice for us as to what to do, what not to do should I say, we can't we can't use pindown, you can't shut them in a room, you can't physically restrain them, so how does one of the workers in the home stop them from going out? I'm meeting Virginia Bottomley next Monday afternoon at central office and I'll be putting the I will be putting whow I will b I will be putting the very question to her as to we've had a lot of advice as what not to do, how do you chastise the children in the homes? So what of Councillor claim that it's all down to lack of Government cash. I'd rather be constructive about this and meet Virginia Bottomley, put these points to her as an all party thing cos we've all said in Social Services that that is the problem that we're faced with. But what of Councillor claim then about Government cash? It's the children themselves in the homes who'd graffitied the walls, broken up the fabric of the homes. No amount of money would have stopped them, or is that if there was Laura Ashley on the walls they wouldn't bother spraying it? I don't think money will solve any of these problems. Would more Government money in the home stop young girls going out to engage in prostitution? I don't think so. May be Councillor efforts'd be better employed asking his leader to stop wasting public money and direct a bit more into Social Services hear hear You talk of the, you talk of er wo should we take it out of this, should we take it out of that, Councillor . received a thirty two point seven million pound increase from the Government compared to last years' i revenue support grant and this doesn't include the additional money given for the Community Charge. But your group sold the children's budget woefully short. You were told at the time you did, and Councillor told you at the time that th it was totally inadequate was the children's budget, so how can you expect more money from the Government when your sense of priorities is so blatantly wrong on the money that you're already handling. I make a plea for Councillor not to use the children as a political football. This matter could have been put forward. We could have tried to address the problem without all this talk of more Government cash, more this, more that, more the other. Let's all get together. The policies are starting to work, as we've already heard from Councillor . We're very far advanced in our Social Services department. The policy of trying to get more foster children is picking up momentum. Let's all work together to promote more fostering, get the children into family environments wherever possible. Thank you Lord Mayor. Councillor Thank you Lord Mayor Er, I er hope Councillor has got his pen ready because there are one or two things I'd like him to mention to Virginia Bottomley and I wouldn't like him to forget them. But er I'll deal first of all with the Children Act. Whilst most commentators are agreed that the Children Act 1989 is in the main a good Act, all of them, all of them Councillor are critical of the fact that the Government has not properly provided Local Authorities with sufficient resources to implement the Act. The Government deserves no praise for the Act. It was not their idea. It was an idea which sprang from pressure groups and voluntary groups as well as Social Services departments, not to mention the House of Commons All Party Select Committee in 1984 . But I want to ask the Tories, I want to ask the Tories, and I want an answer. If the Act is as good as it is claimed in their motion, why hasn't the Government ensured proper funding for it? Of course, of course the opposition won't of course the opposition won't answer that question, but the truth is that it is the usual hallmark of the Tory Government not to fund anything properly. Look around you. Is it not, we can mention this to Virginia Bottomley. It is not only the Children Act which is under-funded but the entire spectrum of Local Government and the National Health Services. The fact remains, and will become more and more evident as the year goes by, that the deliberate under-funding of the Act was an act of incompetence by incompetent ministers. Ministers who should never be allowed to govern this country again, just as the Tories should never be allowed to run again. And while I'm talking Labour running , I notice that the original seconder if this motion was one Councillor , the former arch cash-cutter of Social Services will never be allowed to forget that she cut the Social Services budget by one tenth. Money, incidentally, that we shall never be able to put back. She deformed Social Services and now has the gall to congratulate the Government for this under-funded Act. If it was not for her, this Council would have had more opportunity of addressing some of the deep problems the Tories either created or left behind. Now what if I support in the main the aims of the Act, there are one or two areas I think that some things are not a good idea. I'm concerned about the loss of the access of parental rights panel and the handing over of this work to the Courts and the lawyers. I take this opportunity to thank all the Councillors of both major parties who served on our access parental rights panels. I feel that they did an excellent job Putting this putting this work to the Court will not, I fear, help the situation or improve matters for children or their parents. In fact I think that making this a Court issue will deter some parents from seeking access to their children which is a very bad thing. I do not believe that magistrates will be able to show any greater compassion or understanding that our own elected members. In fact, with the involvement of solicitors, I think the whole business will be less personal, with much less informality and genuine understanding. I must also say that I resent the tendency of the Act to line the pockets of lawyers out of the tragic situations of families and children in trouble. If I was a cynical person, which you all know that I am not, I would have said it was the Government's intention to help lawyers make more money out of the Act. However, I shall confine myself to believing that it was an unintentional consequence. Another area of this Act which I disagree with is over the definition of need. I remember in 1990 attending the same conference as Councillors and Councillor , hearing from , the principle civil servant in charge of the Act, that the Government had not defined need and that would emerge through decisions made in Court. In other words, the Government were too frightened by the cost of the Act that they refused to name a price. However, at the same time, the Government wilfully left Local Government to exposure of the law and the high cost of judicial reviews and High Court actions. Only a Tory Government would be so irresponsible and unfeeling. Only ministers who have no understanding of either Local Government or Social Services would shrink from their own responsibilities in this way. It was their duty and their responsibility to protect Local Government but instead they acted like cowards and ran away. Is that the order of the day? Isn't that what we've come to expect from this worn out useless Government, that at the moment of decision making they run away? Didn't they do just the same with the Community Care Act? When the All Party House of Commons Select Committee reported in 1984 and suggested a further review of child care legislation was needed, did the same Select Committee envisage the incompetence of the Government ministers of the day to so irresponsibly deal with their duties? Councillor , time's up please Yes thank you. It's time for a change. It's time we had ministers who will listen to Social Services and in a few months time we shall have them, a Labour Government. Councillor My Lord Mayor, I move under standing order A fifteen B that the vote now be put. I so move Lord Mayor. Seconded my Lord Mayor. Those in favour please show Those against? thirty, isn't it? That is carried, forty nine votes to thirty. Those in favour of amendment I moved by Councillor please show. yes, that's ok. That's gonna be fifty one, isn't it? Mhm? fifty one? Those against? thirty that's carried That's carried, fifty one for, thirty against. Those in favour of amendment H stan moved by Councillor please show. Those in favour of the substantive motion please show Against? thirty against That's carried, fifty one votes to thirty. At this stage in the proceedings I'm going to adjourn Cou the Council meeting so that you can all have your tea. We shall reassemble at er five minutes to seven. We now under er the powers to choose and the right to own Lord Mayor, I'd like to firstly say why I refused to sit and listen to this next debate. I think it's the worse example of pure political self-indulgence that I have ever come across in the eight ye nearly eight years on this Council I think, I regard it as an insult to the people who actually elected us to come to this Cou these Council meetings. I apologise on behalf of Council to the members of the press who are here, and to the Council officers who have to endure this and I am only grateful that there are not members of the public here to witness this total farce. Now Councillor , you're entirely out of order but er however, I call upon Councillor to move the motion, together with amendment K standing in his name. Lord Mayor Are you going to move, formally move it? I'll move it Shush. Is the is there a seconder? Remarkable. I call Councill Councillor to move amendment G standing in his name I so move my Lord Mayor Is there a seconder? In accordance with standing order A thirteen E, the opposition group has specified this motion as the one to which a minimum debating time of thirty minutes is to be allocated. So we will proceed. Councillor Thank you Lord Mayor. As I was saying, if the Labour Group would like to leave the chamber we don't really mind, if they stay out for the voting at the end of this debate which actually contrary contrary to what, contrary to what Councillor er erm what's his name? Councillor said, is extremely important to the people of and we've learnt a lot in politics over the last ten years. One that I look a lot more like the Prime Minister wearing my reading glasses than the Prime Minister actually looks like the Prime Minister and two, the hidden benefits of wearing your reading glasses, group, here, is that I can't see a thing over there and for the first time in ten years I'm gonna enjoy delivering a speech. The power to choose and the right to own. The power of the individual to choose and the power of the individual to own is the central political plank of the Conservative Party and in fact goes back to Disraeli and one nation. If Councillor had actually stayed, he would know why this is so important to the people of whom I may say he has cruelly deserted by walking out of the debating chamber and what he's saying to the people of is that Liberal Councillors A won't prepare speeches like his colleague earlier on or they won't stay in the debate they are not going to be properly represented when we take important decisions, both nationally and locally. The Right to Buy given to all Council tenants opposed by the Labour Party, has allowed one point two million Council homes to be sold to their existing tenants and make them home owners, and home ownership is a central plank of our policy. It is no, it is no coincidence that in a question asked today to the Labour Party, we will find that we a year ago when the Tory's proposals were still being implemented, over eleven hundred people were granted in the right to buy their own Council house. This year, solidly under a Labour controlled Council, only two hundred and fifty people approximately have been allowed to exercise what actually is their legal right. We've had a debate on Local Management of Schools opposed by the Labour Party where we have seen that the right to choose their own children's quality of education and where school governing bodies can direct their cash where they want has been extremely popular. And I don't apologise to the people of that I voted with Councillor to take a hundred administration jobs out of education and direct that money to the provision of education in the schools cos that that is what running the education department is about. hear hear The city tecnol technological college was given the right, has given the right of education, a quality of education undreamed of by a n by the people who live in the inner cities of , particularly the Asian population of opposed by the Labour Party, a Labour Party committed to scrapping and closing the C T C's and if they can't get Oh you my clap, if you can't get your way, what bullies you are. We're not having the C T C playing football against our schools, God, how low can you actually sink? hear hear What is wrong, what is wrong with increasing the levels of education in our schools up to the quality and level of education offered by the C T C? And why does the Labour Party in always want to level things down? Under the Conservative Government the green belt in England has doubled in twelve years. If it was up to the Labour Party it'd be halved in two. And we've seen, we've seen the commitment to Local Government, haven't we, on the planning application on the , where two local Councillors, two Labour Councillors, sitting there, listened so much to their electorate that they abstain when it comes up to the vote? They abstain. Now, where's people's commitment to Local Government in circumstances like that? Under the Conservative Government the people in Great Britain, including people, have been given the opportunity of shareholding undreamed of before opposed opposed by the Labour Party. And what does say about that? says that we will keep the level of charges down in the now privately owned companies providing public utilities so there'll be nothing for dividends. I hope he's gonna put that in your manifesto. I hope the eleven million who own shares in those operations know that under a Labour Government there will be no dividends. The Citizens Charter announced by the Conservative Party has been one of the most outs , you may laugh, at least you stayed in Try reading it, try reading it some time because what it says to the people of is, if you don't like the level of services being provided by your Council, if you feel your Council are not giving you value for money, then we're gonna give you the right to complain about it and do something. And that brings us on to the question of money. We've heard tonight, and I do not believe it, a plea from Councillor , the Chairman of Social Services, that he wants ring fencing of Local Government money, I E the Government sends us our money and says, you will spend it on that and that and that and there will be now power of Local Councils to decide what the needs are in their areas and what their priorities are. Now if you want to serve as a Local Councillor, Councillor where you are told by any Government what the priorities of people are, on the services that we deliver, than I want no part of that in Local Government. No more than I want any part in Local Government where Councillors and Officers can spend twenty thousand pounds tripping all over Europe and let's put something straight, the T and A tonight, which we all believe, says Councillor has no right to complain about that cos he went on a jet plane to Brussels. There was nothing in our press release, in fact the contrary, criticising the Labour Party Officers going to Brussels where we've had tremendous support over the last ten years. And if we did spent twelve hundred pounds on an aeroplane and came back with fifty million pounds worth of grants, I'm not apologising for that. I actually don't think I actually don't think that the Community Charge payers of should pay for Councillor to go and watch a circus in Denmark. If he wants to watch a circus, he can attend the Labour Group Labour Group meetings every month , the Labour Group meetings every month. We don't think we don't think that the citizens of are doing cartwheels at sixty four thousand pound being spent on a benefit bus to tour round this district and certainly if the festival organisers two years ago could commit themselves to breaking even within two years and were happy with that, why have we spent two hundred and forty thousand pound on a festival in when that money, and that's four hundred thousand pounds worth of money, could have been spent on the salaries and training of our officers who work in children's homes. No, we didn't sack anybody who worked in children's homes, we didn't sack anybody who was at the front line of s services and we certainly didn't expect other people to pay for our circus tickets. didn't sack anybody We actually believe that the people of would prefer prefer their money spending on the environment and front end services. And we actually believe that it's the individual's power to choose. What is now worrying us extremely about Local Government in Britain, in any Labour Authority, which is spreading now like a cancer in , that officers are not trusted now to even take the sick list of decisions so there has to be another sub-committee. I mean, I'm not that rude as to say that's for the payment of allowances, but some people may say that. Officers are paid to implement you can speak in a second. Officers are paid to implement our policies. They're certainly not paid nursing homes. Where's the power to choose for those elderly people that want free at the point of service National Health Service treatment? It was, or it has been, a believe that the N H S was for all of us from the cradle to the grave. It's now a sick joke in the Health Service, it's from the cradle to the Waldergrave. The Trusts are in serious financial difficulties and may well be one million pound or two million pound in debt before the end of this financial year. And quite rightly, it's gonna be the subject of a Parliamentary Health Committee Enquiry which starts next week. Meanwhile, it's chief executive, it's brains, it's driving force, is getting out. He says quote, there's unfish unfinished business for the Trust but not for me. And he's so desperate to get out he'll take a twenty thousand pound a year pay cut. He's obviously abandoning the sinking ship cos he knows what's happening to it. Now what effect is that gonna have on the staff who can't leave? Having said that, three hundred are been forced to leave, three hundred are being sacked, as we've heard before. Nurses are actually being sacked at . The official term is released, not sacked, released, made redundant. But that's been consistent because there are three thousand less nurses this year in the N H S than there were last year. I don't believe that's because people are being treated better, or more people are being treated better, but at a cost of eighty million pound, there are four thousand more managers or accountants, people brought in from business, people who will do business, people who will sort out privatisation. Now the Trust refuse to publish their business plans. These are the multi million pound supposedly public money going into it. Whey do they do that? Because they're in the business of competing with other hospitals, competing for treatment, competing with doctors. That's not co-operation, that's not a comprehensive Health Service, that's moving towards privatisation. Now I think it's a bit rich t to slam the Liberals for walking out on the last debate because the Tories didn't attend the Health Trust Select Committee which Council set up. I wish they had have attended, the Tories, because there were very very few people prepared to come and speak in favour of Trusts. Even the proposers from the Trust would not come and talk to the public. Not surprisingly, I heard today that in in there's to be a judicial review on the supposed Trust because they've not given enough information to the public on which to start their enterprise. The survival of the N H S is going to be a major election issue and I know who's gonna win it. Nobody trusts the Trusts, it seems, except the Conservatives and I fear that we're only a General Election away from a fully privatised Health Service. Well, give us the power to choose at the election. The position of the Conservative Party is clear. Opting out hospitals, two tier Health Service, an internal market, competition for business, competition for people's illnesses and treatments, secrecy, less accountability, and privatisation. It's already happening. Labour Party will bring these Trusts back into Health Service and to public control. One of the reasons why they're having such a hard time with trying to privatise the Health Service is because the British public actually feel they own it, they feel a part of it, they feel it's theirs, they know where the hospitals are, they know they can get treatment and they don't abuse it. The Government are steam- rolling these reforms through but the Trusts are failing, failing in , they're failing all over. It is true. For the first fifty seven of them to be set up , at a cost of half a million pounds, did a survey and found that only twelve of the fifty seven were financially viable and that didn't include the Trust. The public do not believe the N H S is safe in Tory hands. hear hear Give them the power to choose at the General Election and they will decide the future of the N H S. The future of the N H S is safe with the Labour Party, with your lot it's privatisation, it's started already and we're a General Election away from the end of the N H S. Councillor right to the very bitter end I assure you. Lord Mayor, we've always been opposed to Trusts because of their independent nature which we see as really making it impossible because of that very nature to plan for health care properly. The two are really incompatible in the way that the Trusts are deemed to operate. But one of the problems with attacking Trust, I mean it may be possible to to envisage some sort of modified Trust with some local input at some stage without the contracting apparatus. It may be possible to envisage a Trust that could work and could operate. There are many simil similarities after all with the D N U's anyway. And really we ought to be concentrating far more upon the other other changes which are proposed other than the Trusts and the things that in fact are fo far worse in my my own opinion. Most of the problems that are arising are not just because of the Trusts but because of other things like for instance the contracting process that is proposed, the t the changing in the financing that is incorporated and of course the general under-funding which there is within the N H S. These are far more important problems in the long term. Now, paragraph four of our amendment here is not really designed to knock the Labour Party. It's really more to do with the er means rather than the ends, which I think we sh we all share and so i it was actually included more out of of sadness than anger and we tearfully put the word regret, not condemns, but regret really, the way that the campaign has been launched against the Trust. What we feel is that by going at it like a bull in a china shop,we all sorts of accusations of widespread privatisation has actually backfired. It's been a classic g case of scoring a lot of home goals here, which the Tories have actually benefited from. Talking about privatising the National Health Service and opting out of the National Health Service is not actually very helpful because people don't believe that, they don't believe it's er N H S P L C. They do not, it is not a British Gas, it is not a British Telecom, they know it's not and it devalues your argument if you talk of it in those terms, and it allows Waldergrave to stand up and to renounce and reject your statements and weaken your case. The impression is that the Tories are winning the debate because you're having to amend some of your earlier statements. You're not walking, not about widespread privatisation, but creeping privatisation and you're now talking about not opting out of the National Health Service but you're now talking about opting out of local national Health Service control. People know this, they identify with this, they recognise that you're back-tracking and it looks as though your ke case is hereby weakened. Now the problem is that the Tories do not have to privatise the National Health Service to damage it. There are lots of other ways that they have found of doing it. The contracting system is damaging to the National Health Service. The proposals to do away with nationally negotiated pay and condition will damage the Health Service. The attack on funding levels will damage it. The G P's are in turmoil at the moment, the G P practices, they're in turmoil at the moment, that's damaging. It's interesting, there is no doubt, no doubt you are there's a very learned journal called the Liberal Democrat News which which you are no doubt. Now it reports in here a survey carried out in The Doctor, September the twenty sixth, and it was asking there who they actually supported in terms of the National Health Service changes, and you may be surprised to hear who in fact came out on top of that. from doctors That's from doctors. Doctors themselves saying that. On what the Labour Party have claimed for themself as being their issue. Now that would worry me. That would worry me if I was a Labour Party member because you have got a good case but you are not putting it across in a way that convinces doctors themselves. You are actually, I know that many doctors traditionally vote Conservative, but you are actually behind the Tories with only twenty one percent support. That must, should, worry you in terms of the case that you're putting across. There are lots of things to attack the Conservatives on and it is a question of how that is actually done. We don't need to make things up. We don't have to. All we have to do is tell it as it actually is and then trust the people themselves to decide. Councillor My Lord Mayor, I'm delighted to have this opportunity to debate the Government's health reforms again. I'm disappointed by the two er contributions we've had so far. We've had a list of anecdotes designed to panic the public and patience of Councillor and I was disappointed that Liberal don't seem to understand that the Health Authorities have now been given the op the responsibility for planning and provisional health care in er in health authorities. This planning is being done in a way that it has never been done before and I'm surprised they haven't grasped that. I'd like to have a look at the er to examine Labour's motions today. The three sections of it. The most important part of their, the first section of their of their er their motion is opting out of local N H S control. Now this is a downright lie hear hear again designed to er to panic the public. Government and hospitals are not opting out of the N H S at all, they are every much of it a as part of the Health Service as they every have been and you all know that and it's about time you stopped saying it. They are now under local control, not opting out of local control, they are actually being managed locally and that is quite obvious to anybody They are no longer being managed by the Health Authority across the road, remotely, no no contact between the two, or not enough anyway, no longer being managed by a region fifty miles, or forty miles, whatever it is, up the road to . What way is that to manage a hospital? Ma Trust hospitals are being managed locally within the hospital building and that's the way to do it. They're being managed by the staff who work there. It's sensible. How can anybody disagree with that? And I know a lot of Labour people do agree with that. , who spoke so eloquently in this Chamber two years ago, has now joined the Trust staff. She was a candidate at North a as your candidate there and now she's joined the Trust. Some people are seeing the light, even from your own side. What would what what what are Labour's plans for the Health Service? Well, we haven't heard any have we? All they w all they're saying they would do is restore it back to what it was. Well, we all know what it was under Labour. Under Labour, under Labour waiting lists are always under Labour waiting lists have gone up every time we've had a Labour administration. Every time we've had a Conservative administration waiting lists have gone down. It's not as if the contribution of Labour Councillors to th to the management of Health Authorities has been very er productive. I've sat on the district management board of Health Authority for four years and watched Labour Councillors coming sometimes, often not coming at all, sitting there saying nothing, debating very little in the way of useful contributions until, I have to say, Councillor came along and er a er, sorry to get you unpopular with the rest of your colleagues they seem to be there just to guard vested interests. It's no way to manage a Health Authority to have to have people coming along there to t guard their own vested interests. Trades Union members As as Councillor said, Labour keep altering their story about the Health Service. They started off saying opting out of the Health Service, now we're opting of local N H S control. We started off with privatisation, now we've got creeping privatisation. Well Labour were the first to introduce charges to people in the Health Service. They were the ones who started charging people for glasses and surgical appliances, wigs, things that are necessary and actually help in the management and care of patients. They're the ones who started charging people. All Conservatives have done is put out services to tender such as cleaning, laundry and portering, and allowed those services to be provided by the company or, and sometimes the Health Authority, that gives the best deal. There's no expense to the patients, no charge to patients, no cost to patients. There are are advantages to patients, better quality control, greater efficiency and financial savings ploughed back into patient care. Now, if that's creeping privatisation, let's have some more of it. However, the Government has no intention to privatise health care. We've had it straight and true from John Major. I believe him. I agree with him and I would resign from the Conservative Party if it were anything else. I have worked for the Health Service for twenty six years and plan to carry on doing so and I fully expect to finish my work in the Health Service where it's still in Government hands. Let's look at the second section of th of Labour's motion. Stated policy of Labour Party. When I read the first six words of that I thought, good Lord, we're going to get a bit of policy here and but no, no, none of it. It's hardly a policy to say that they're stating we're intending to return the Trust to N H S when it's never left the N H S in the first place. Labour has no constructive policies, or at least we haven't heard any. Councillor came to a meeting in and spoke for for th for twenty minutes or whatever it was. He didn't give us a single inkling of anyth any Labour policies. All he did was suggest that the er the Health Authority chairman and the district general manager should resign, which which which he got the headlines for as, as designed, but it was no no contribution to the discussion about the Health Service whatsoever. One of th one of Labour's own party, the supporters, has called the Labour policies for health care, if they exist, a process of fossilisation. As I said, I've worked in the health service for twenty six years. I've seen strikes under Labour. I said this at the last time we discussed this. I've seen Labour inspired Trade Union control of hospitals, I've seen the patient to be the last in Labour's priorities hear hear Let's move to the third section. Considerable opposition in to setting up Trusts. Well this is a real joke. Everybody knows that the Community Health Trust had an extensive consultation exercise with the public. They had m several public meetings. Less than ten people turned up. And then the biggest joke, this Trust Select Committee, Councillor Committee. It was planned originally that there would be three whole days packed with people coming to coming to pass an opinion. It was watered down to three half days. Four hundred and seventeen individuals were invited to come, a hundred and fifteen organisations were invited. Who turned up? A few Labour Councillors, a Labour M P, two or three Trade Union representatives, a G P a G P who happens to be a Councillors, Labour Councillor's wife and one or two others Does this really show that the public of are worried about the Trusts' hospitals. It's not my experience, sitting there in the in the clinics. The practice of medicine is carrying on the same way as it has done before but we're addressing issues like quality and standards and timing and waiting lists in a way we haven't done before. I don't expect you to know this because you don't work there. I do. So perhaps you'll take it from me The truth, the truth is, the truth is that more and more people and organisations are realising the benefits of local control of N H S hospitals, as in the Trust hospitals. The public and especially hospital consultants are rapidly realising and acknowledging that Trust hospital status is a genuine attempt to address local health needs which is providing increasingly successful health care. If we look at cons sa take consultant's views, I'm afraid that hospital consultants are not the quickest to grasp the advantages of reform. They didn't want the Health Service in the first place but we rapidly came round to it. We didn't want the reforms it seems but now sixty to seventy percent of consultants are wanting the reforms. And we heard some figures about G P's, ninety two percent of those G P's who've got their own budgets are seeing the benefits to their patients and their patients are saying so as well. Undoubtedly benefits are coming from those sorts of changes that come from the Health Service reforms. And then we come on to the final point, the whole issue of N H S changes in the final section. Are Councillors and against all the changes in the Health Service, in the Government Health Service reforms? Have they read the white paper? Are they against medical audit? Are they against financial audit? Isn't it good to know the results of treatment? Isn't it good to know the costs of it? I've said G P budget holding is a success and so are Trust hospitals. My Lord Mayor, I totally reject this motion as a load of baloney. Trust hospitals are very successful and will continue to be so. hear hear Councillor Lord Mayor, I've only been brought up under the National Health Service for thirty two years and I feel sorry for that poor doctor. He started off as doctor in the house, then he moved to doctor at sea and now he's doctor in trouble, as a result of these Government policies. And it's clear, we're seeing already, that Health Authorities haven't got the money to refer patients to the Trusts unless the Government steps in and says, that's not Government policy, so you won't see the problems Councillor because they won't get referred to you, will they? The Government's policy is like an ailing comedy, carry on, except it's carry on regardless of professional and public opinion. The Government's dogma over the National Health Service has turned into panic. The second wave of Trusts has become like a second hand car sale. It's accompanied by a wave of hysteria. Some Government ministers denying privatisation, under-funding, they've even denied those holy grails of ownership and choice which are the foundation of the Tory Party. But the fact remains we can't trust the Trusts. And I'll tell you what the problem is about the Trusts, and I'll explain why they are opting out of the National Health Service. Because the powers, responsibilities and assets of the National Health Service will be vested in a private Trust. That's right, we'll be waiting, as we did with the planning applications to come in on hospital. They're not democratic, nor are they accountable. Only two have decided to hold their meetings in public. Not many, Councillor , not many of us are gonna have the choice to see the minutes of those Trust bodies. The decisions that they make are gonna be based on comers commercial considerations, not health, so I'm sure the doctors won't be won't be bothered with decisions, Councillor because the accountants will be making them for them. The fact is that it won't be an integrated service. We'll all be separate cost units, won't we? Like the ambulance service who is having to go out and find income, having to do health and safety checks at factories just when you need an ambulance. Yes, who can refer to the ambulance service when they're out making money and, of course, the staff are gonna suffer. As has been said, only one in five Trusts have said they'll honour the terms and conditions of the National Health Service workers and we've seen the disgraceful decisions that're being made in . I'm sure we'll be seeing more of the same to follow, down the road at . The Trust process has been a sham. There's been consultation. I waited eagerly every morning, would it drop through the door, this Trust leaflet? I was wa I needed the information for that debate Councillor . It didn't arrive, even after had given me assurance every household in would get a leaflet. They got them in . I don't know why, it's outside the area. We didn't get em. So you can consult people in about what's happening in and wider afield. The fact is, there's been a complete lack of consultation. It's only this Authority that the consultation process in this district and you've had the answer, a resounding no to the Trusts. I won't beat about the bush about creeping privatisation because in it's become a stampede. It's unique amongst Health Authorities. Every part of the National Health Service in is gonna be placed under the auspices of the Trust. That isn't creeping, that's a stampede. And we're gonna see a three pronged attack against the public service. Privatisation in three ways, increasing compulsory competitive tendering, and we know what that is at , we've seen it plan, quality control, can't clean the operating theatres. Yeah, that really helps patients. They'll be coming out with more diseases than they went in with Specialist services specialist services hiving off. Let's talk with Water, let's talk with B T, anybody providing we can get a bit of private income in there. And a greater role for private health insurance. We know who's jumping the queue and we know which directors of the Health Authority have got private health insurance in . We know who they'll be jumping over, yes, the people who haven't got the choice of private health insurance Councillor because they can't afford it. And what stinks about it is vested interests to the fore. was a great man but the only problem was he left a vested interested in the National Health Service and that's coming to the fore. And yes, a district general manager should've resigned because he had an interest in the decision to go for the Trust status. had the decency to resign in but not in . We don't trust the Trusts. We know what it means. I can't give you a strategy on how to fund the National Health Service. We know that the British Medical Association say it's under-funded to the tune of six billion pounds but we'll say what we said before we took control of this Council, we'll open the books and we'll direct resources to priorities. And chief amongst Labour priorities is the National Health Service. Councillor still not a sign of any policy from them on the Health Service, par for the course. Lord Mayor, the Conservative Group welcomes this opportunity to debate reforms in the National Health Service. The only disappointment is the lack of substance in Councillor motion. I must confess to be somewhat surprised to see the Labour Group wanting to debate thisu this issue again after their lack lustre performance in Committee and Council on the previous debates on this subject and today's been no different. Let's look at this issues. At the last Council meeting I quoted figures on comparative performance of the Conservative record on health against Labour's and I make no apology for reiterating some of these figures, and you can howl and you can wail and you can say what you want, these are facts. No, these are facts that can be borne out. Nurses pay has risen by forty eight percent ahead of inflation. Under Labour it was cut by five percent. Doctors pay is up thirty nine percent after inflation, under Labour it was cut by seventeen percent. The Party that are the bastions of the Health Service. Just over one million additional hospital cases were treated in 1989, compared with seventy eight. The number of in-patients treated has increased by one point two million. Waiting lists have risen, as Councillor has already said, under every Labour Government, and fallen under every Conservative Government since the N H S was founded. That is fact. That is fact. It's ten o'clock. That is fact Lord Mayor and these facts will bear out. I challenge Councillor to bring me the evidence saying otherwise. So if it's doing so well Get into Microfit, when you're in the data input menu I'd like you to call up the file Q M four FIT Q M four FIT file file . If you just look at the er the sheet, that we've handed out, they loaded from er from the computer it's that data that's in front of you, right, we've got three, three series, right, it's times data, right, from nineteen twenty three to nineteen forty five, right and the three variables are, textile consumption,United States er real, sorry is benevolence of the U S, so it's textile consumption,capita, real income er per capita income to be adjusted through inflation, so constant money terms and what the relative price of textiles P erm the price of textiles relative to the general level er the general price level. Okay what we're going to be doing is estimating a demand function so we can specify the textile consumption as a function of real incomes per capita and also relative prices, alright. A priori, what sign would we expect on those two variables? Say the income, what sign would you expect to observe? Yeah positive providing textiles are a normal good, you should observe positive er income consumption response okay. How about prices?what code, what sign do we expect on the er the price variable there? Yeah negative, right, textiles rise faster, the price of textiles rises faster than the general price level, the real increase in textile prices, therefore, we'd expect providing the first law of demand holds, that we get a negative response consumption, right. So that's what we expect a priori a positive coefficient, a negative, coefficient, positive on income, negative on prices. What we are actually going to do today is to look using this data, is to look at structural stability, right, we're going to ask ourselves are the parameters that we estimate over the entire sample, are they constant over time. There's no point in estimating a model if in reality those coefficients are not fixed, they're jumping all over the place. Right with those parameters, so if you just look at the er coefficional income, if we estimate the coefficional income to be nought point five right, over the entire sample, the then subsequently find out if that coefficient varies from year to year from minus six plus ten, right, having a one point estimate, right, er oh that coefficient is not going to be particularly useful to us, we want to know er whether our coefficients remain reasonably constant throughout our sample period, particularly if we're using this er equation to make out of sample predictions, right. The first thing we must er be sure of is that the coefficients within the sample are reasonably, er reasonably constant, right. If they are not reasonably constant, then not only is the model er a poor one, right, within sample but it can't really be used for out of sample predictions, because although on average er our coefficient that we estimate it might be nought point five, then the out of sample could well be minus six or something like that. Right, so you need to know that our model is characterized by constant parameters over the sample. Now the data that we've got here has been artificially generated. the last six observations of it has, right, the first six observations, sorry the er the first twenty odd observations are real, right, that they haven't been made up but the last six observations have been made up, right, to er to illustrate structural change. We will assume that we don't know that there is structural change in this data, although a priori, we might expect it. Why, why might we expect structural change to occur in this example? Anything in particular? Okay, yeah, that's right, this s this series a particularly volatile period of economic history in the nineteen thirties, the Great Depression, in addition what's at the end of the series? Yeah the Second World War, right, so er I can tell you now that in actual fact there's no structural change during the thirties here but there is structural change during the war. Textile consumption, or the parameters that we estimate during peacetime no longer er explain textile consumption during wartime. Right, I'm going to go through methods of how we can detect structural change by the non constant parameters. The first thing we'll do is look at the data, alright, so if you go from the action menu into option one, right, we're going to plot er go through to the transform edit option, go into the data processing environment, right, where your three variables are listed T C I P. Right, if you just give the command Plot T C Plot space T C then press the return key right, that's textile consumption over our sample. Now it's not immediately obvious from that time series that there's a structural break, right, textile consumption hasn't fallen dramatically, right, or risen dramatically over the post war period, oh sorry du during the er the war period. Nevertheless we can show that there is significant structural change er in the model that we'll estimate. Right, so by looking at the graph, I am just trying to impress upon you that structural change cannot always be spotted simply by looking at the data right, anyway, let's now move on to estimate our first model. What we are going to be doing is trying to explain that series, right that er consumption series. So if you press the escape key we'll go back to the data processing environment, right. What we're going to do is to log all our variables, right, so if you let L N T C equal open brackets T C close brackets, right, we going to define a new variable L N T C. That's going to be the natural logarithm, right, of our original series T C textile consumption. If you now plot L N T C right, if you plot L N T C you should have a very similar graph to the one that you had before. Alright, logging the data doesn't change the nature of the data, what it does do is that it re-scales the data, okay so the only thing that's, that's, that's changed by logging, right, is the scale of the cr is the vertical scale on the graph, right, but essentially we are still trying to model the same series and N T C is essentially the same series as T C. Okay, so if you press the escape key, once you've had a look at the data, er if you log all the other variables er if you let L N I equal log open brackets I close brackets let L N P equal log open brackets P close brackets, press the return key. Okay has everyone created those three variables in logs? Okay, right what we are going to er do now is create a constant, we'll need a constant for our regressions so if you type the letter Q to come out of the data processing environment right type the letter Q right and then go into the er constant creation menu, which is option one of the data processing menu right,you'll, you'll be asked for a name for if you like call it C or constant or Fred Bloggs, just supply a name to your constant term. By the way has everybody changed erm the password or their password, have you changed it to your date of birth, have you all done that because if you haven't, you've only got six grace log-ins on erm where your password is your user name. If you don't change your password within six er times of logging in then you will be excluded from the network. So you won't be able to log on to Microfit? Right,okay, so has everybody created a constant right, what we are going to do now is to er estimate the first model right equation one on the sheets that you've been given, alright, you've created a constant, we've got our variables L N T C L N I L N P right so if press the letter Q to quit from the data processing environment and press the return key, head towards the action menu, right, when you are in the action menu, go to option two, which is the estimate option, right, and you should then be given a dialog box. If you then specify your equation, so it's L N T C your dependent variable space, whatever the name you called your constant then L N I space L N P. Now just specify the variables that you want in this regression, right, your dependent variable first okay when you've specified the equation, sorry once you specify the equation press the end key which is between the alphabetic and the numeric key pads, that will then submit that request, right. If you then er, it will then ask you over what period do you want to right so if you press the end key that will submit the job erm it asks for the sample period, we're going to use the whole of the sample, so if you just press the return key, that's the default for the whole of the sample, right, it then asks you what procedure you want to use to estimate the model, we're going to use O L S option one, just press the return key O L S then the computer has estimated the model, right. Before we move on, let's just have a look at those numerical estimates, can we look at the coefficients on income, notice that in this model because we've logged both dependent and the independent variables, right, the coefficients that we estimate are elasticities, right, so we can read those coefficients off directly as elasticities and that's the case for any model in which all the variables are logged right, in er, if we didn't log the data, in order to calculate the elasticity we have to multiply a coefficient the computer gives us by a erm price quantity ratio, price less, less part of the income constant ratio to obtain the income elasticities. Alright but in any double logged mode, right, the coefficients you estimate are elasticities, so we look at the incoming elasticity, we get a measure, or we get an estimate point six eight, right, that's a positive as we would expect suggesting that er erm textiles are a normal good, right. Notice that an incoming elasticity is less than unity, and that's less than one, as a result textiles, textile industry in the Netherlands is going to be a declining sector in the economy, right, as incomes er per capita G D P rises, the textile sector will benefit, alright, because, because human demand for textiles either they're demanding proportionately less of any increases in incomes. Right, then so as a result the textiles would be a and relative decline to the rest of the economy. Is that a T ratio on that incoming elasticity? Is that coefficient statistically significant, is it significantly different from zero? Our estimate incoming elasticity, just the T ratio would you say. T ratio of one point four nine. Typically we use the rule of thumb to statistical significance so if we have a T ratio that's less than two we can infer that that coefficient to which the T ratio is attached is not significantly zero. In actual fact our incoming elasticity there with er nought point six is statistically significant zero, eighty five percent confidence level. Confidence right the figure in the square brackets next to the T ratio gives you the significance level of the coefficient, right. We normally use the five percent significance level or the ten percent significance level which corresponds er ninety five percent confidence or ninety percent confidence right. So this T ratio on income elasticity is for the bit right and if we were using the five percent or ten percent as our sort of cut off point, we'd actually discard income from our consumption, from our demand function. Now as economists we should have strong prides about income in this model, we would all, we would expect income to be very important in explaining textile consumption although the model is telling us at the moment, income doesn't seem to be significantly explained in textile consumption so that's something to worry about, we're getting some, er sort of peculiar results here. We now look at the er price unity as a T ratio minus ten, right, so it's highly significant, right and the er figure in square brackets, the probability value next to the T ratio tells you that we get least ninety nine point nine percent confidence coefficiency price elasticity demand significantly different from zero right, now is everybody happy interpreting the coefficient right and the T ratio? If not say now and we can go through it. It is vitally important that you know how to distinguish a statistically significant coefficient, right, rule of thumb is that the T ratio has to be greater than two with absolute value right and the figures in square brackets next to the T ratios tell us the exact level of significance, right, er of that coefficient, right, so the incoming elasticity of demand is statistically significant from zero only at the eighty five percent level, a correspondence of fifteen percent significance that incoming the price elasticity demand, highly significant, right, significance level as given by the probabil by the probability er unit in square brackets, the timing level therefore we could be very highly confident about that coefficient okay. So we've got this model, right, we've estimated the model, let's now have a look at the plot of actual and predicted. So if you press the return key right, we just get a whole list of diagnostic test statistics that we won't look at at the moment, press the return key again, come to the post regression menu, you go into option three which is a list plot option. Now the plot actual and fitted, right, so we try to explain the actual block of textile consumption as the blue line and to do that we are using our model with those fixed estimates, the incoming elasticity and the price elasticity. As you can see there, the model is breaking down during the latter period of our sample. The notice that appears to track the data quite well up until about nineteen thirty, right and then after nineteen thirty it seems to get progressively worse. Now we may suggest that that's the effect of the Second World War biasing alright biasing the estimates that we've just produced from the whole sample. Now because I'll leave that for a moment right, so one way we may test the structural change, right, is to construct what's called a dummy variable and a dummy variables in a wide variety of applications they can be used to er get rid of er outlying observations, very very high or very very low observations. They can also be used for tests for structural change, right, what we're going to do is to say during peacetime right, we'll estimate our model, we'll then estimate our model during wartime and we're going to assume that the coefficients or the income and price elasticity mark, don't change during between peace and wartime, all that happens is as they intercept this model shifts, right, now you may thinks that's not particularly er attractive, you might expect the price of income elasticities to change between two periods and we could actually use dummy variables to see whether that is the case, right, however, we'll get very similar results, right, if you just use a slope dummy so it'd intercept dummy, right, and all that's going to do is to say, well the model runs like this in peacetime, right, and then wartime it suddenly shifts up or down depending on the effect of er of the war on textile consumption. Right, so what we're going to do is create a dummy variable to test that hypothesis, right, so if you press the escape key, right, and work your way back towards erm the data processing sort of environment, so go back to the post regression menu through the backtracking menu erm, when you're in the backtracking menu, go to option six, which is the process plot edit option right, now press the return key in the data processing menu, right, and that will get you to the data processing environment when we can start messing about with our variables. Right, what we are going to do now is create a dummy variable, right, let's call it D one right so if you type D one equals zero and press the return key what you created there, right, is a new variable called D one and it assumes the value of zero, right, what I want you to do now is to edit this variable, so type edit space D one press the return key right, if you type on edit space D one you'll then get a sheet that has all the observations for our variable D one. Using the cursor key move down to nineteen, the observation for nineteen forty right when you've done that type the letter one and then press the return key, right, and you'll see that the observation is changed, right, from zero to one. Move the cursor to nineteen forty one, right, and then press one again, press return key. Just go through the remainder of the, of the observations, so that you should have zeros up until nineteen forty and then at nineteen forty through to nineteen forty five, right, you have ones. When you've finished doing that, press the end key. Right the end key will save the edit that you've just made okay. Right, what we're now going to do is incorporate that dummy variable as the regressor in our model as an explanatory variable, so what's going to happen is that that dummy variable is turned off, alright in the first part of the sample right up until the war that dummy variable's going to be off, right so it has a value of zero, right, then in nineteen forty through to nineteen forty five it's switched on and what it's going to do is to pick up any differential effects, right, in the intercept between wartime and peacetime right, we'll talk a little bit more, more about that in a second, we're going to add it in as a regressor, right, because it only comes on during the wartime it will pick up any shift in the intercept, right, that occurs due to the war if there is one, of course there may not be but it's quite likely that there, there may well be, so if you type Q to come out of the data processing environment, go back to the action menu and test estimate forecast okay at the dialog box just add D one to your list of explanatory variables, alright then press the end key, right, yeah we're gonna use the full sample right, we gonna use O L S, right you have now estimated the model with this dummy variable now just to see what's happened to those coefficients the er incoming elasticity was at nought point six is now doubled right to one point one four more importantly, right, its T ratio has jumped from one point eight five right to six point eight, as a result, we now say that the incoming elasticity, the income coefficients, right, the significant zero, it's important to explain the textiles as such the er, we are now getting a very different estimate for our our estimate for price elasticity is four and one to nought point eight minus one is one point eight, notice though that its ratio has jumped considerably or has doubled and the dummy variable itself is very significant the T ratio ten the coefficient on that dummy variable tells us the effect of the war on textile consumption, right so on average textile consumption rose by point two er see what the units of measurement are we don't actually have units of er ah so we'll elasticity whatever it's multiplied by That's right if you er so this point two quantifies the effect of the war on our equation, and where is the so the intercept, well what you're saying is in peacetime the intercept is equation three point one seven, however, in war time the intercept shifts up and is now three point one seven plus point two, You could draw it like that you could say that this is the the war which cuts in this time of year line shifts up, Yes. so if you wanted it back, you would actually get a new value for the intercept which increases by nought point two three point Three point one okay so this is where the model, in effect what we've done which is a very crude way, right, of erm incorporating exogamous influences, right, we haven't said tha that the war is going to affect the income or price elasticity what we did do, right, all that we're doing is that we're allowing the intercept of our model to change, right, now as a result, we've got, we can prove the st the statistical significance of all the variables in our model, right, the co the actual coefficients that we've estimated have changed quite significant, particularly in the er the incoming elasticity, right, the incoming elasticity was less than one, right, and insignificance before was now greater than one and height of R squared has also increased dramatically our measure of explanatory power. Now if you just press the return key a couple of times right, and have a lot of actual and fitted, if you go into option three in the data post depression menu you will notice that the fit of our model is very very different right, so we are now getting a very very good correspondence between actual and fitted, notice that in our original model the thing started to break down at about nineteen thirty, right, just by allowing the intercept to vary, right, over the wartime we've now got a much better fit throughout the whole period why is that the case? Why are we now getting a much better fit throughout the entire period simply by incorporating the dummy variable to the war period? Any suggestions? Well what's happening is it the, during the war, right, we're constraining the computer to estimate, like a single coefficient that is applicable to both war and peacetime er isn't the case, right,th there is a structural change, right, so when th when we constrain the computer to estimate the coefficients throughout the whole period, right, the coefficients are biased but if they don't apply either to the post er pre war peacetime sample neither do they er fit very well to the data during the wartime, right, if we allow the intercept to change but we're getting much better estimates both wartime and peacetime er parameter's okay because we haven't got rid of, we've got rid of that bias, right, in constraining the parameters to fit both wartime and peacetime er time periods. Okay, erm on this sheet, I don't think, well we won't go through it now because we've run out of time. On this sheet, on page two, we've er, we've performed equation two, right, on the sheet and the second page and it says that there's, there are two alternative ways of testing for structural change using dummy variables. One is to include corporate dummy variable of the intercept and see whether it's T ratio or significantly different, is, sorry it's greater than two right or we can use an F test, right, now that F test that's given me that formula in the middle of the page is a very important test which was developed by a chap called Chow and as a result it become known as the Chow test and it's a, it's a test for parameter constancy, er do we have constant parameters in our model now it tells you how to compute this Chow test, in this particular case we're only dummying the intercept, the Chow test gives exactly the same results of T tests, right, erm we won't bother going through it, if you want to go through this er sheet in your own time calculate that, that Chow test and essentially what it involves is splitting with the s the whole sample now into two sub-samples, right, the first sub-sample, right, is peacetime, the second sub-sample wartime, right, and you just compare the residual sum of the squares on the unaccounted for variation, right, between actual and fitted values, just compare the residual sum of squares between these two sub periods, right and if you use the formula that's given there that will come out with exactly the same result, well in actual fact you can square, if you square the F statistic you get calculating one formula you will get T value, got from er the computer right, the er, the sheet goes on to say how we can er use dummy variables in slightly more complicated ways, right, we could see actually see whether the income or price elasticities of demand changed. Right, instead of letting the intercept change we could just let er our elasticities change. Anyway that's preferable because that's actually what's, what's happening, right, the war is likely to affect the elasticities of demand rather than this er bizarre concept intercept erm and the, the sheet on page three tells you how, how to do that okay. But essentially all these tests do the same thing because they're seeing whether the parameters that we estimate over the entire sample are robust over all sub-samples, right, we can't, we wouldn't bother testing over all sub-samples though we can do, it's just if we have good reason to believe that behaviour in one sub-sample different for behaviour in another E G use er Chow test or equivalently a dummy variable on the intercept to see whether there was any change. Right, okay we'll leave it there, if you just press the escape key and then work your way out of Microfit towards the action menu, exit from Microfit and don't forget to log out of the network. Okay, feel free to come down here at any time with this sheet and er going through the, the examples in greater detail Q M four FIT was the data file, you'll always be able to access, right when you've logged out of the network feel free to go and a merry Christmas, see you next year. Oh. You can ask him if it's alright to keep you in your tablets. I'm going to start . I tell you when I was in here it was just keeping calm. And I'd no been to bloody. Aye well Nothing Doctor can do, I know but he . He would need to go up and see . Doctor Ah. What's up with young John today? Oh my Strathclyde Hospital on Wednesday, Aha. and they er sort of X-rayed me, took a urine sample, took a blood sample, er Doctor Aha. He examined me. Erm he f he found, know how they were wrong about a slight murmur on my heart? Mhm. He couldn't find it. He says it could have been anxiety Mhm. or hospital Aye just So there was nothing really nothing to worry about. Good. I'm delighted to hear that. But he did say that er it'll take three weeks before he can get back to me about sending me to the Law Mhm. He says that, see the biopsy and the other? Yeah. He says that I might not need to get it right? Because he, he'll be able to tell off my blood. Mhm. So he, he's still to decide about that. Yeah. Right. Aye, and he also agreed with you about the lump in my back. Mhm. Right? Yeah. And he s he said the same as you, that er If it's not bothering you, leave it alone. Aye. Said the exact same as you. Oh aye. Och aye. It's not, not sensible. Now then. Here you are young John. Honestly, I'm gutted with this cold the noo, could you give me Mhm. Yeah, something for it? sure. How're you doing with the, the drink? Oh. I have my good days and bad days. How many good ones and how bad ones? during the day. Too many bad ones. I just cannae seem to get off it at all. Well, keep it down as low as you can because the lower you keep it, the less chance there is of getting this biopsy done. I thought they were just going to X-ray me back, but they X-rayed everything. Oh they would do. They done the lot, Yeah. front, back, side. Yeah. Oh aye. There you are John, And Right. that'll get you rid of that. Doctor Aye, we're really worried about him now. He's getting worse. Aye. I mean see last night, we went to bed last night, he came in at noon didn't he? I'm moving out. I'm moving out, I'm going to go stay at me granny's. I cannae stick my dad. I'm just, I'm just moving out and er I just cannae cope any more. They're Mhm. everybody's talking about me. Mhm. I mean I, see the tablets you gave him? Mhm. I've got them. Mhm. I'm actually scared. He's threatened, just a couple of times to take an overdose. I'm scared to too Mhm. Right. too many at the one you know what I mean? He's seeing Doctor and I was wondering if you'd heard anything from Doctor ? Doctor what, if that happens Doctor says that the next time he wants to see us along with him. Mhm. Yeah yeah. Because he's worrying us. Yeah. See I don't know if it's just part real or if he's just trying to frighten me. Mhm. It could be. This i this is the thing, with youngsters like that, you never know. I mean he doesn't want for nothing, he gets as much as I can give him. It's nothing it's nothing to do He's got, he's got everything he could want. Aye, it's nothing to do with wanting. I mean see my see my next door neighbours, they're good Mhm. neighbours aren't they? We don't even take any money off him for keep Aye. or anything like that. And he came in let him keep everything. he's sitting he's sitting in the living room on Sunday night. Now these new wheely-bins, you take a turn each. Mhm. I'll just take the two, and Billy'll take them out the next week. Mhm. But on Sunday night we weren't in, and Billy looked in the kitchen. We were at a night out. He must have looked in the kitchen window. Just to see Mhm. whether to take the bins out or not. But our John was sitting reading the paper. He's got a, they're all talking about me, he says they're listening at the walls or standing in the clossies Mhm. I mean the things he's coming away with aren't real. Aye. Why is he seeing Doctor ? He's . He's gonna see him again, don't get me wrong, Doctor said he'll send for the both of us, right? Mhm. But he's getting to the point where I'm ready for saying to him away you go down to your granny's right, but my mam cannae live with him either. No no. Cos she's the same way. She's phoning me. She I think Doctor only sits once a month, and Oh no. No. No. Every week. Is it every week? Is it? Mhm. I thought it was only once a month. No. See when he's thing, you see when he's er down at his granny's, my mummy and my daddy are actually talking round about him trying to kid on that they're, they're ignoring him. They they try to ignore him. Know what I mean? Mm. Right. I'll get on to him and we'll soon get this . See I cannae walk by a bus stop. There're two people at a bus stop, they two people's talking about him. Yeah. The night that they brought him up here. A man walked in and he says hello to John and that and how's it going and that, he came into see you and I sat, I mean I came in Mhm. out of the road, what's that man saying about me? Aye I heard him saying how do you put up with an arsehole like that? Thinks, he's paranoid. He thinks everybody's talking about him. Aye. You know what I mean? But this has just come on. Mhm. Oh aye. This is how it comes. This is how it comes, just And I mean I'm not wanting to make up any . Ah but Doctor , it's plain to you, John's It may be the best thing for him. John has been put under psychologist because he was slow at school right? Aha. Aye. And this is the start. This is what's in his head. He's no equal with anybody else. Yet Ah. he is cos we paid dear. Yes yes yes. But this is the thing, if he doesn't go there, if he needs to go there and he doesn't go there, he's going to get worse. Aye. Aye. I mean he's going to get worse and worse and worse. See, the way I feel I've, it's not a case She even thinks I know there was see because he w he was slow, he had trouble with learning Mhm. at school, right? Mhm. See he S he thinks that all the ones that were at school with him are s talking about him. Mhm. That's right Still yet. that's what he said, the first night he came in. Aye. The f the thing is if he needs to go in for treatment, he's only going to get worse if he doesn't get it. But he'll say to me I said that and all. But as I, like you know John when he talks about it. If they found out I'm up there like I'm just going to stay up there, I'm never mind to come back here. Do you know, she went to the bingo yesterday her mother, right? For that day out at the bingo with her mam. And er he roa er he ranted for three hours too. Mhm. Kept repeating himself and, right? Yeah. And I'm sitting watching the telly trying to watch a film. Tell him what happened with the police the police a fortnight ago. I had to send for the police. Mm. Because he didn't I thought he was I thought he was going to do something to himself. Or smash up the house or something. See he smashed up the house on Christmas day. Aha. But he never For no reason at all, Aye. right. Er then he, he, I sent for the police because he walked out the door and he, he threatened to kill himself. I had to get the police to get him back. See and I don't know whether he's tormenting us, or whether he's Oh, you never know. You cannae take the chance. And I've got every tablet. Even his. Mhm. I've got of them all. You can't, I mean there's, there's no way you can take a chance on it, Flora. I mean if he's just I mean he's, he's the only kid we've got, and he's been Aye. spoilt, you know what I mean? It's no as if we've Doesn't, doesn't matter who it is. Doesn't matter what age they are. I mean, we've had them doing this at eight year old. Aye. And I've seen them doing this right up till they're in their eighties. Do you think if I, do you think if I gave him a fright,s see the, time he says he's going off to his granny's and I say away you go, and my mam says she's not taking him. Would you would you like to take the chance? No. I wouldn't either. I know he's starting all these things, see his computers and that? S maybe if I says to him away you go to your granny's and then and you're not taking anything with you. No? No. It's not worth the risk Flora. If he did anything Well that night he walked out I was wasn't I? Mhm. And he must have been, I've a feeling he was standing somewhere bloody well Watching you. Aye. watching me. Yeah. Oh aye. I mean,i if he, if you said something like that to him and he went away and he didn't turn up for two or three days, you would never live with yourself. Maybe that Exactly. Oh no. No no. Ju hold on. Leave it with me. I'll get in touch with Doctor . Hope we'll get it organized as quick as we can. Right, thanks Doctor . Okay? Right. Right, thanks Doctor. Okay, right Flora. Right. Don't do anything I wouldn't. Aye. o okay. Right then. Right. Right, cheerio now. Er, before we start, I would like to say that we have received a request er, I think it was from Longman Dic tories er Dictionaries to have er, one of our meetings recorded, and er, after discussing with the leader of the Council, er and er we decided that that this may be the best committee to record. Basically, what it is, they er, want to to computerise a collection of some one hundred million words of written and spoken text, that can used by dictionary compilers which are there just to study the English language. It is all completely confidential. No individuals will be identified, and really it's for the future, er, so you, there may be the opportunity of er, new words, recorded. so, er, with your approval, er Graham has got the er recording aid. There's either one here, where else are they, Graham. That's the only, that's the only one. Is that the only one. I was assured that it will pick everybody up. Erm, just to mention, also, Chair, it, they've asked to deal with the Personnel Sub-Committee Meeting next week as well. I see. Thank you, so we've obviously got to behave ourselves this morning, and act in a proper manner. shout out Well, I'll turn it that way. Er, so first of all, could we have er, any apologies or substitutes for this meeting. Chair, there are no apologies for this meeting, that I know of Thank you. The er, first item on the agenda is the minutes of a meeting, fifteenth of October. Can I have your approval of those minutes? Good. Agreed. Thank you. The next paper is cash limits, and I believe you're going to take this on. Yes, er, thank you Chair. I'll say if I knew any Swahili, I was very tempted to s I would would have been very tempted to to use it, in the lights of the er, the dictionary. Er, the the first paper is the er, is the beautiful category in the paper, allocations from the contingency. There are three erm, categories to er the requests for allocations for this meeting, erm, the balance of the contingency currently, is one point seven two nine million pounds. And if the er, requests for approval er, are indeed a a approved, the balance er, remaining for the contingency will be some four hundred and seventy five thousand pounds. The recommendations on the front page, to show the three categories. The first category all relates to er related pay awards. All pay awards are, have been settled at one and a half per cent, and I don't propose to go into any of the the detail. The figures er, for each er, of the settlements, er is shown in the more detailed erm, paper. I will make brief comments, Chair, on the the two other remainings items, and if I may refer members to the more detailed paper, and firstly to section three, capital accounting by local authorities. Best local authority accounting practice is er, contained within the code of practice on local authority accounting, erm, which is, is, er, published and maintained by the . Erm, that is, is has been revised with effect from the first of April, nineteen-ninety-four, to incorporate proposals for a new system of capital accounting. Erm, the code does have the force of law, er, and requires local authorities to adopt the new capital accounting system from April nineteen ninety-four. Preparation for the new accounting, capital accounting system, required all our assets to be valued. Currently the er, the County Council's assets, as shown in the balance sheet, have a value of twenty-nine million pounds. Now that of course, is way below the actual value of those assets, er, but it's still over twenty-nine millions because of the previous way in which, erm, the er, capital capital was accounted for. Erm, we need to value those assets, and the cost of back- work being carried out by the London Buildings Consultancy would be nineteen thousand pounds, some twenty pounds per property. There's no budget provision, and as a consequence approval is being sought for that some to come from the contingency. The er, moving on to section four, waste disposal. The contingency originally had provision for some four thousand pounds for waste disposal. That provision was placed in the contingency because it was un felt it was unclear at the time, what the effect on costs would be, of the sale of link waste. In fact, er, an estimated one hundred and sixty three, six forty pounds is required, erm, following on from the sale of link waste, and of that eighty-five thousand pounds wa relates to the legal costs associated with the sale. It seems that there a a a large figure. It is a large figure, but the County Council was breaking er, new ground in the sale of link waste, and it was necessary to engage specialist lawyers, erm,Lond a firm of er, London solicitors er, to assist in the in the process, and members will recall that in fact, the the proceeds from the sale of link waste were four point two million pounds initially, with potentially another four hundred thousand pounds, erm, once certain conditions were satisfied. In addition to that, another one hundred and eighty thousand pounds is required for the on- going maintenance of some closed sites dealing with problems and and also to some legal and consultancy fees in connection with a an after-care dispute. So the total of the four hundred and fifty thousand pounds that is now being requested, it's three hundred and forty-three forty. Erm, and it is, erm the waste disposal sub-committee did resolve at their meeting erm, earlier this month, to request the finance sub- committee to make er, an allocation. If er, members approve the three er, categories of allocation, there will as I said earlier, be four hundred and seventy-five thousand pounds left in the contingency. Thank you Chair. Any comments. Er, could we just ask er, a couple of questions, Mr Chairman. Is that four seventy-five likely to survive there be any more calls on it. That's the first question. Erm, the second question is, if you hadn't put inflation in this year, Yes, the er, in answer to the er, the the first point,I do not, er, expect there to be many additional calls on the remaining, on the remainder of the contingency. There may be some, but I would expect that this time sum, er or close to it, will be the final balance, and that, of course, will flow into the general balances of the County Council, and er, a one million pounds was allocated from the contingency, that finance sub-committee in October, to meet the price, er, to meet a prices inflation. Okay. No other comments? You agreed on the recommendations Agreed. Agreed. Agreed. Good. Paper B. Thank you, Chair. This paper deals with those er non-target area, er projects. In other words, projects which are not contained within erm, service committee targets. There are some seven in total, and I'll briefly refer to those. The first one, turning over the page, relates to er, grant maintained schools, erm, the fact that erm, the calculation of the indirect maintenance grant is based on last year's percentages. Erm, so, instead of paying for primary schools, eleven point nine per cent, which is the the actual er amount of er indirect support that is provided within the erm, Education Department, and seven that's in relation to primary schools, and seven point eight per cent schools. We have to pay the, er, ninety two, three percentages, which were fifteen point two per cent and nine point eight per cent, so there's an additional element there, and also we have to deal with erm, the additional cash that goes to grant maintained schools, who went grant maintained prior to the first of April nineteen ninety-two. They are protected at the cash additions that they had er,or originally and they are somewhat higher than the erm, actual, erm, indirect per percentages would be. The estimate for ninety=four, ninety- five, is that there will be some one point three eight five million pounds required, but I er, have to say, that we have not, as in previous years, we have not at this stage received from the D F E er, details of of how the er indirect element of A N G will be calculated for next year, so the requirement may differ er in in due time. Section three, deals with police and fire pensions. Erm, the revised estimate for police pensions is some hundred and nineteen thousand pounds higher than the original estimate. Now that is not as significant an increase as we've had in previous years. There are greater additions to expenditure than that, but there, that has been in part off-set by er, a greater er er receipt from other authorities in relating to er policemen transferring to Lincolnshire. As far as ninety four, five is concerned, erm the, er estimate is some six hundred and eighty- one thousand pounds higher than the the original estimate for this year, and again, there is a mix of factors giving rise to to that. As far as fire-fighters pensions is concerned, the revised estimate is is really significantly higher than the original estimate. Over half a million pounds, and there are three factors that make er up that er sum, a hundred and eighty thousand pounds for the lump sum payment, erm, transfers out to other authorities, that's fire-fighters transferring to other authorities fire services. Two hundred and thirty-one thousand, and we had lower than ex expected receipts from fight-fighters transferring in to Lincolnshire. In total, we estimate that next year, police and fire pensions will cost, gross, nearly seven and a half million pounds. So that, that is a very significant increase on the fi on the amount that er, fairly recently we were having to pay. The next item, specific grants, deals in in main part with specific grant on the police pensions er, element. Erm, but it also deals with erm, police claim office grant on C C that is charged to the police and repair and maintenance, and also related to one or two minor items. Some specific grant on the judges lodgings, the maintenance of that, payable by the Lord Chancellors Department, and so- some specific grant on emergency planning. That's spec this is the final year in which specific grant will be payable on emergency planning. The er, revised estimate is one one hundred and fifty thousand pounds higher than the original estimate, and we're expecting over three hundred thousand pounds into the specific grant and ninety-four ninety- five. The next deals with precepts and the the major precept is that which is paid to the Lincolnshire Floor Defence Committee. Erm, we've got initially some slightly bad news on this, but then some really rather encouraging news. The er, the downside, is that the way of apportioning and contributions to flood defence committees has changed as a result of the introduction of the er, of the council tax. Previously, er, our share depended upon er the population of Lincolnshire as a proportion of the total area. The basis of apportion which is now the council tax base, and we er, do lose slightly from that change. Section five point two, makes reference to the additional a hundred and ten thousand pounds that was approved in October for erm, er expected budget pressures, in this particular area, and in fact, we have had an eleven thousand pounds refund refund from the Severn Trent er Flood Defence Committee, so there's only ninety- nine thousand pounds, er the revised estimate is ninety-nine thousand above the original estimate. Now turning to the, the the good news and that is that the Lincolnshire Flood Defence Committee was set to increase after ninety-four, five which is some twenty per cent below the normal three-four level. That, the increa there is an increase over the Wellent er Flood Defence, Wellent and Flood Defence Committee, two and a half per cent, but that as Severn Trent, is set at a zero increase. So the overall effect on these budgets is that the original estimate is just over seven hundred thousand pounds, the original estimate for ninety four-five is just over seven hundred thousand pounds below the original estimate for ninety-three, ninety-four. Section Six deals with mandatory student awards where the county council acts, if you like, as the administrator on behalf of the the Government, with the payment of student awards. It's expenditure out and then income in from the Government. The, perhaps the the points to make there, is that the bigger the ninety-four, five is er, getting on for four million pounds below the ninety-three, four level, and that reflects, firstly, a reduction in students grants, with a a corresponding increase in the amount available from student loans, and secondly, a reduction in the tuition fees payable as part of the mandatory award, er, in the light of direct, higher direct funding of higher education establishments. Now this,is er, also,and this is to do with the interest earned and on revenue balances. The est estimates for er, interest on revenue balances, depends upon anticipating cash flows. The cash into the authority, the timing of that, and the ti the timing of cash going out of the authority. A particular difficulty in trying to estimate the ninety-three, four er position, was erm, stemmed from er, the independence of further education colleges. We were not sure how that would affect the cash flows of the authority, and set a very er cautious level for interest on revenue balances, and as members can see, that has been very well exceeded, er its superseded by some one point one million pounds in ninety-three, four and it's expected to be of a similar level in ninety-four, ninety-five. And, finally, Chair, the the last section, C C within committee budget, erm, this area is where the the costs of providing the central department is recharged to other departments. There's a higher revised estimate, and a higher original estimate for next year, er, that is to do with charging C C to the probation committee, erm, which previously was er,ex excluded, and that is er, of course subjected within the the probation committee cash limit and eighty per cent grant is payable on any sums within that. As far as the public service units are concerned, er, where the amount of C C is a real charge, and can dis disad er disadvantage them significantly, erm, the ninety-two, three charges are reduced by ten per cent, erm, it it it's expected there'll be a further two per cent reduction, so there's a twelve per cent reduction in the C C charges to the public service units. Thank you, Chairman. The report is for noting. that they're rather interested in the information contained in it. Just concerned about, you know, we don't know really what the er impact of the grant maintained, er er er er and how how quickly we we we we know what what that is, er er Treasurer, please. Chair, I I don't know, er er, last year, we were in a a similar position. Yes. The January meeting of this committee, we didn't know what the arrangements would be. Mm. I think we got to know around mid-February. So, if if the same pattern is followed, it would be middle of February, before we we we find out what the arrangements will be. The amount of money that we have to pay out, is er obviously detract from the education budget. On on on that Chair, I think erm, the protection of of the schools that went grant maintained before ninety-two, I think that will continue. But certainly, some progress is being made towards the common funding formula. Mm. And the financial incentives er, to go grant maintained are rapidly decreasing. Councillor I do hope we're not going to extend our current lawyers who we use in this particular issue, erm, whatever this amount of money is, is spent in school and er, to that extent I think we should er be well prepared to foot the bill. Chairman, I think the Chair of Education's comments were bias. It has nothing to do with the individual grant maintained schools. What we have to realise, it is taking a disproportion of money, amount of money, out of Lincolnshire's education budget. This this is the concern, and we all know how tight that budge is, and how much we need to put into education accounts. Erm, I think that the comments that Chair made ar are extremely bias, in what she's saying, I think is, that it looks as if , if erm, the minister is beginning to realise this simply can't go on, this this disproportionate funding, and that is what is so unfair, and I think it does need to make quite clear to grant maintained schools, that there is, it, there is that possibility that that will be reduced, because they need to know that just as well , for balancing their own budgets in the future. Any comments. Councillor Was not, as it were, that's the way the treasurer would use balancing, you've got another million pounds in the . Mind you, I did think last year the grant was down too low, at eight hundred thousand, but that was the amount they put in, it was two point eight, I think, to start with, and two million pounds offered in the end. Which made our budget er, that problem obviously that much more difficult and just showed the problems we live with, Mr Chairman. Which can produce the budget within the guide lines, as we found with interest rates. Pleased you raised that, Councillor , 'cos we're still two million short than the government assessment within the S S A. Yes, that's right. Which er, you know, adds to the doubt, you're obviously aware of the Thank you. As I say, the er, it is, it is two million less, than what the government has assessed we should be receiving in interest payments. Just commenting on the er, grant maintained schools. It's not a case of being paranoid, it's a case of seeking fairness for all the school children, and then some of them receiving disproportional, you know higher, er amounts of money, then that must be seen to be unfair, and I'm certainly well supported in that. Are there any other comments on this paper? Yeah, I just er, like to, just to welcome the ongoing commitment to the Treasurers Department, to keep down the er, charges to the public service units through C E C. Obviously this is to the benefit, and gives them the, a greater chance of succeeding out there, in what is a difficult market place. Councillor Er, thank you, Mr Chairman, to me erm, this went on from the first paper that chose the effects of the food and management of the er, the fire local services, whereas carried through and it will be interesting to see next year er what the situation is, in order to the position of the as it were, this year, benefit of everything that has previous administration. Well, we've already got some information from Central Government, that that we're ten million short. on the Government. I'm sorry, you know, you've had your say. Any other comments. No. Give me er, note of the recommendation. Paper C is the revenue estimates. I believe you were taking this Paul. Yes, thank you thank you, Chair. This paper seeks your approval for the revised estimate for the current financial year, nineteen ninety-three, ninety-four, and the for estimates nineteen ninety-four, ninety-five, for the policy commission. It also seeks your approval to the which has been undertaken by respective chief officers, during the current financial year, in which, is why I'm reporting to you now in accordance with the national regulations. The report itself was in the usual format comprising a report by the county treasurer, a joint report by the chief executive and county treasurer, and then the detailed estimate contained on the blue pages. But let's propose a statement, which through the county treasurer's report in any detail today, it's already been to all service committees and I'm sure you're very familiar with it's contents. What I will do, however, is just draw your attention to two key issues within that report, which affect the estimates of this committee. Having turned then to page A two. Starting at page A two, paragraph five and nine indicate that there is presently a gap of so of some eleven point four million pounds, between the overall spending limits of three hundred and eighty-one point four million pounds, agreed by the Policy Committee last November, and the provisional cutting limits set by the Government of three hundred and seventy million pounds. At it's meeting last November, the Policy Committee did agree to review the overall spending limits in the light of the final revenue Support Claim Settlement. And the outcome of that that that review will be reported to its next meeting on the eighth of February. Should the review require an adjustment to this committee's target, a further report will be made at the next meeting of this committee on any amendment to that target. The second matter, I would just like to draw your attention to briefly, er, within the treasurer's report, is in paragraph eight. This explains how the target for this committee is being set. As for all other committees, the target for this committee, for nineteen ninety-four, ninety-five, allows fully for the effect of inflation from November nineteen ninety-two to November ninety-three. That being the price fixed at which the was presented. It allows fully also, for known commitments in service. The effect of forward inflation, that's inflation which will be incurred during nineteen ninety-four, ninety-five, is not incorporated in this estimate. It will be considered by the Policy Committee again, at it's meeting in February. In summary, therefore, the estimates before you, er for the Policy Committee, represent the cost of maintaining existing policies and levels of service. If I could turn now, to the joint report of the Chief Executive and the County Treasurer. This is set out on on page of B one to to B three. Page B one covers the er estimate from the Chief Executive's Department. Detailed revised budget target of two point one five nine million pounds is set out in paragraph two, and you'll note that the main addition to the estimate approved by the County Council last February of one point eight, nine, two. The County Hall Department are spending from nineteen ninety-two, ninety-three,this amounted to a hundred and eighty thousand four hundred and ten pounds. Further addition has been made of seventy two thousand pounds for service and negatives, introduced by the Department bill, and approved by the Policy Committee last June. Paragraphs five to seven, explain the compositions the nineteen ninety-four and ninety-five target of tw two point oh, one eight million pounds. This again, starts with the original estimate for nineteen ninety-three, ninety-four, of one point eight nine two million pounds, and details of changes agreed by the Policy Committee last November. This allows for repricing of the budget for November, nineteen ninety-two, to November nineteen ninety-three, and that sum is shown there as some fifty- seven thousand pounds. This includes, also, an amount of thirteen thousand five hundred, er to support the scheme for public questions, which was approved by the Policy Committee last November. If we turn now, to page B two,this presents the information for the County Treasurer's Department for the same format. For those of nineteen ninety- three, ninety-four, and nineteen ninety-four and ninety-five. Starting with nineteen ninety-three, ninety-four. Again, the main additions of the original estimate is that the carried forward of two hundred and forty-four thousand pounds from nineteen ninety-two, ninety-three. And approval for this was given by this Committee last October. Paragraph eleven, detailed for your approval of from income generated by re- charges to internal funds. And this is being used to fund the cost of the Risk Manager post. Again this was reported to you at the last meeting of this Committee. Erm, and also the cost of increased fidelity guarantee insurance of eleven thousand seven hundred and fifty pounds, and additional suppliers and services costs, principally in respect of consultancy costs arising out of the Inland Revenue Audit of twelve thousand, seven hundred and fifty pounds. Turning to nineteen ninety-four, ninety-five, er, paragraph thirteen, details of budget target of two point five, four, oh, million pounds. The main addition to the original estimate in the in the case of nineteen ninety-four, ninety-five being the cost of repricing from the November ninety- two price costs, to November nineteen ninety-three, at seven hundred and one thousand pounds. Moving on, erm, paragraphs fifteen to twenty-one,com cover a number of miscellaneous budgets under the wing of the Policy Committee, detailed, described as other policy. Paragraph sixteen explains the revised target of one point one one seven million pounds, which mak , which makes provisioning for the costs in the current year of operating the university company. These costs amounting to some, seventy thousand pounds in nineteen ninety-three, ninety- four. It also makes provisions for meeting redundancy costs within public service units, in respect of work which they have lost in competition. Paragraph eighteen, makes reference to the receipt of fifty-three thousand pounds of income. This is the County Council's share of the expose surplus for nineteen ninety- two, ninety-three. It also points out in in in in the report, that this income has been to meet expenditure of thirty-two thousand pounds for the number of services, and the remainder of this, has been with additional insurance costs. Paragraph twenty, provides details of the nineteen ninety-four, ninety-five budget target policy. Yeah. Which was reported in paragraph twenty-one, includes a reduction of two hundred and thirty-two thousand two hundred pounds for the cost of the nineteen ninety-three County Council elections. And this reduction was partially off-set by the costs of a hundred and thirty-one thousand pounds, again the the cost, this being the cost of operating a university company in nineteen ninety-four, ninety-five. Finally, Chair, if I can just ask members to turn briefly to page C one, the first blue page. This page summarises the service area under, within the Policy Committee. The original estimate nineteen ninety-three, ninety-four, that's shown in column three, It then provides analysis of inflation and other changes, leading to both revised estimates for nineteen ninety-three, ninety-four and the estimate for nineteen ninety-four, ninety- five. For this committee, therefore Severn we've been asked to approve a revised estimate of five point nine five five million pounds, and an estimate next year of five point four, six, seven million pounds. Details of these estimates is is provided in pages C two to C eleven, and I don't propose to go through those in any detail. But I'll be quite happy to answer any questions that members have. The recommendations, Chair, that you approve the estimate for, the revised estimate for nineteen ninety-three, ninety-four. The estimates for nineteen ninety-four, ninety-five, and the guidelines set out in the report for nineteen ninety-three, ninety-four. Thank you.. Do you agree with those? Councillor I wouldn't know. People were coming in with questions on our first little bit hesitant debate. This is er, a relatively er, small revenue er budget compared to er, the Service Committee's recent week. Nevertheless, it is erm, set once again, in the er context of the overall County Council budget proposal for next year being three hundred and eighty one million pound. That was an overall estimate that erm, members on this side, apposed very vigorously when it was first put forward in policy, and that any budget er, proposals put to committees that er, based on that false premise, erm, would also er be criticised and erm, opposed by this side. It takes no account of the er er government requirements for er this coming year, and having said that, I I must accept that the overall increase proposed for erm, ninety- four, five, er is only three point three per cent. Erm, only three point three per cent. Well, in my sums that comes to er, something like er, fifty per cent more than it ought to be. Erm, and if we look at individual erm, items. When we look at the Chief Executives Department, the increase there is what, six point six per cent overall. That's a factor of something like three hundred per cent than it, than it ought to be in terms of inflation and the County Treasurer's budget of plus five per cent which is well in excess of two hundred per cent. So I think you can see that erm, there is er, not a very strong basis there for this er budget to be promoted by this side. We oppose it. You wish to put forward any amendments to the way you have put. I I I I think the amendment will be slope opposite to the er, to the recommendations, I don't think it requires an amendment. Without any information as to where, how you would reduce it. I think No . Okay, fine. The principles underlined, document,this project are er coarse, you would say, and for that reason we oppose it. Good. Mr Chairman, if we come in now,million pounds Oh, is that, is that proposal seconded, first. It is. It has been seconded. Yes. Now that's stated in the blue paper, you might want to talk about Well, you've got the opportunity now, if you wish. Well, it's the case of I'm sorry, I'm chairing the meeting. I'm sorry,yo yo you you're not listening to me. I am listening to you. The the the treasurer has already gone through the report. It is now up to members, to make observations, ask questions, and then an amendment has been put, which is er, accompanied to, direct negative over the recommendations. Well, the Treasurer, is responsible at the end of the day for reducing the price of overall. So the question that I would like to ask the Treasurer, and the statement was made by been allowed. Has there been any attempt by anybody to real budget or has there been in the department, just put them together, their demands and each of them papers. Chief Exec. up six per cent, Treasurer Department the same. No doubt this goes through. Education the other day was up about five or six per cent. I mean, I'm gonna protest, because I'm gonna vote a protest and commitments are area where some will be allowed and some won't be allowed. It depends on what they are organise the things they need. There hasn't been any attempt about savings, or reduced commitments or any, or everything is here, and if it hasn't been attempts, perhaps we could have a list of what's actually been removed. Did you wish to? Yes, erm, thank you Chair. The process that was followed in preparing the , which was exactly the same process as being followed in previous years. It started with these exercise in July and August, which sought to identify erm, commitments required to maintain existing services. It also sought to i identify opportunity to efficiency and effectiveness savings. So exactly the same process was followed. At a subse subsequent st stage again, as has happened in the in the past, inflation was added, and that was fully to reprice from November ninety-two to November ninety-three prices. So yet again, the budget was reflecting the amount of money necessary to maintain existing services. Now th the the the way in which the budget has been prepared in previous years, has been maintain existing services. So, in that respect, there is no difference in the preparation of this budget, er in comparison with the previous years. The result of all the calculations including er commitments, er necessary, for example for additional pupils, erm, lead to an overall budget requirement of three hundred and eighty-one point four million pounds. To maintain existing levels of service, and that was the the budget that was approved by the Policy Committee in November, but, with the rider that the erm, the the overall budget would be review reviewed in January in the light of the Revenue Support Grant Settlement, and that still is the position. Thank you. The the statement that all commitments has been allowed, isn't Commitments written, you say, all commitments have been ensured. Yes. Commitments necessary for the maintenance of existing levels of service Right. Well that necessary, at least ways to augment this. No, they were saying totally different. I think you've question that far enough. You've had your answer. You asked, how would it be prepared? It, you've, it was be prepared on the same basis as last year, in fact, the other We went through it with a fine tooth comb. We found all the little bits and pieces, the er, er, idiosyncrasies of how it had been prepared previously by yourself, And er, we're quite satisfied with the process that has taken place. Probably more thorough and more searching than ever. I don't particularly want to go Exactly. All I'm trying to say Sorry, that was, I'm sorry, you've spo I'm sorry you've spoken, I'm just commenting will you be quiet please, I'm taking next speaker. Well, Will you be quiet. You can ya, you can come in here later. Did you wish to? Mm. Thank you, yeah. I just referred Councillor Wild to paragraph eleven on page A three, because, it it does say reasonably clearly, I think, that the Policy Committee resolved to review the overall level of spending in January nineteen ninety-four in the light of the Revenue Support Grant Settlement. We had, we had to conservative speakers so far, erm, and Councillor Brock seem to me, in a sense to be summing up that phrase about knowing the price of everything and the value of nothing, because there was the the the es essential arithmetical calculation about percentages, and savings. No mention about the difficult task that the County Council's got in living within a budget, a capping level of three hundred and seventy million, and it would be reasonable, in in a, in a, in a sense that when somebody's proposing opposition to a budget, it gives some indication as to what within the budget, would have to be cut. It's not really helpful to be able to say, that the amount of money is too great, to refer to percentage increases which are higher than the figure that would have been included by erm erm an opposition group. But not actually to say, what what what would be the outcome of the percentage cuts. Of course, it's quite right, and it's it's in a sense maybe reasonable to oppose a budget, but in the past, I think it's been erm, one of the strengths of the labour group, when in opposition to put alternative budgets in for say, yes, we take a view that's different to the budget that's before us, but so far with two conservative speakers, we've not had the benefit of knowing which items, which levels of of spending within this policy committee, be it the Chief Exec. Department or the County Treasurer's Department is not considered to be relevant to the needs of erm, the County Council, the people of Lincolnshire, and I think it's reasonable to ask that question, and to hope that erm future conservatives speakers in this meeting, on this paper will give a clear indication as to what will be the effects of a budget reduction. Chairman, er, can I very briefly reply to what Councillor Parker has said, and then come on to my erm, uncontroversial question about our Erm, I think now is not the time to give a detailed reply to this. No. conservative administration will change the budget, obviously, you have highlighted in what you have said before, that the main crunch will come at the next Policy Committee. I think that is the time that we would er, wish to put forward er a detailed alternative, or seek alternatives. So far as to my specific erm, question is on B one, on the white paper,or other target, the public question, thirteen thousand, five hundred pounds of money you do say in the subsequent paragraph, this is to provide public question time at Council meetings. Is that all that that thirteen thousand five hundred is targeted for, and that is for the four meetings of the County Council each year, when there will be a public er question time. Could I, I I I will answer that. If you read further on, it does say, Committee and sub-Committees, to encourage involvement. In that paragraph. Have you answered that question. Er, what Councillor Newton's just said, I would just like to ask for a clarification there, if I may. Is he guaranteeing to tell us where everyone of the cooks is going to come at the next Policy Meeting. Is it being proposed? Well. No. That was easy. Mr Chairman, rapidly respond to Councillor Parker, you are the administration, this is your budget, Yeah. This is your budget. Had it been in administration, we would have put forward to our budget. But I mean, you are being totally unrealistic in putting a budget forward, of three hundred and eighty one million er, for the County Council. I mean, that is not at all relevant to the policies of the previous authority. These are your policies, they're not our policies. And er, you know, you've got yourself in this mess, get yourself out of it. Education Yes, right. We don't consider we're in a mess. I would remind you that this is the budget for the policy. Yeah, true. I mean, when we was in opposition, if er, if we had a Westminster crisis in Lincolnshire and it suddenly kicked all the conservatives off, we would have been able to come up with an alternative budget to manage this county. Now I think it's only fair and right that the conservatives are doing as er, should be doing the same. But they are Will you be quiet, please, sir. All they are proposing is, we're, well, all they're doing is opposing, we oppose this, we oppose this, we oppose this, they're coming up with no information, that the people of Lincolnshire can judge them on. And I think it's unfair of them, I think it's irresponsible of them to just criticise detailed budgets that are well thought out like ours, like ours always were I have nothing, and to have nothing to offer the people of Lincolnshire as an alternative. It's just rhetoric, in a way, irresponsible rhetoric. Perhaps they don't know what to do. Councillor Yeah, I think, I I sympathise on what the er, new opposition, because I think, it does take some time to particularly after you've been in opposition for the last, well, for the for the for the rememberable future, You should and er, I think that er, er I I I'm quite interested an and really quite amused, if I once gone on proceedings of this council, because every time a a new initiative has been proposed, you have said, oh yes, we were going to do that. Yes . In any case, we er and we want er no opposition to it, and in fact I I was surprised we owned a pack a pack of goodies in the transportation planning committee yesterday, and the, one of the question of opposing them, it was what was going to block, that they,wh wha were they members, gonna get for their pockets and their own patches, and er, I I think, so I mean, I asked a a a councillor, well I asked a question on five per cent for me yesterday, and my response was, yes, precisely. Now, if you're going to er er er er want everything and then at the same time, want to reduce the budget, then I think you're like the man who wanted a cake an and you'll find that he wanted to eat it, so I think you've got to come to terms and be realistic. And so it would be most interesting to see what sort of patent you can come up with for policy, and and and and and and we'll see just just how you'll meet that. I shall have other things to see, later on, Chair. What other information, Mr Chairman, he didn't say that at all yesterday. What he said was he was waiting for the government for better Ca ca ca can I say. Councillor councillor it is not a final information he's telling lies I'm I'm sorry, and I'd rather we didn't use that sort of language, 'cos you remember you are being recorded. He was referring to something that happened yesterday, and we're here, We're here today, discussing the policy and we'd like to stay with that. That's right,an answer the question. Very good. He's a Okay, you've answered it now. Any other questions or comments? Councillor Well, Mr Chairman, I think er, you know, it's all right putting forward a budget like this, but there's only one person who got paid for it, and that's the general public. And er, I think that there are people who are a little wet behind the ears if they think that the general public are going to accept the costs of a budget that's coming forward on a long these lines. And er, you know, I know we're looking at one particular committee. And I would ask you to direct your questions to that, because there's an another time and another place when you can talk and er discuss, and put forward proposals regarding the councils overall budgets, so I would ask you to concentrate on this, but. Yeah, well, right. There are, there are starting points which we, the opposition party would have started from, and it is not from er, er the the same er, erm, that you have arrived at, that we would have arrived at. There are differences within . Erm, you know, for for instance, as Councillor speak Newton has just said, that there's thirteen thousand five hundred. The there are other things, which er we Mm. would have presented a very good budget for and a lot of other commitments. Are you opposing the thirteen thousand? I I don't mind, but I'm opposing, as like the rest of us the budget in I think you, Mr Chairman, it would be totally improper if we did not raise the issue within the within the budget if we did not raise the issue of election members and the expenses of election members. We did, at the time, when the expenses were incurred, we gave it, that we were opposed to all the increases that were being made, we still maintain that policy, and I believe that there is a time when we should be be in approval, that we in fact, expending money on new active members is wrong, when in fact, have the cut backs, because at the end of the day, people of Lincolnshire have to pay for these additional expenses incurred to elected members. You've heard to inform members generally of the level of settlement in the County Councillors under the transport, E F P grants arranged. Overall the level of settlement was disappointing as the summary on the paper recalls. Sample. Erm, grant comes at a rate of fifty per cent that have accepted it as expenditure. It may be in in one or two forms, erm, cash, or expected expenditure. erm, by the grants of credit approvals, either basic or supplementary, which is A that facilitating a council spending money on the programmes which the D T P have accepted. Overall, if one aggregates those three things, the level of settlement for the county was down thirty- one per cent on the year, compared with a national total, which was also in distress of fourteen and a half per cent down. The settlement does reflect some change in government policy and the areas of expenditure, which have previously attracted direct grant, are now being met through the grant accredits approvals, which do ultimately bring cash to the council, erm, because they keyed into assets aims, and the revenues court-room mechanism. But over a period of time, erm, they are not directly equivalent, but very nearly so. It is just information, Chairman, that the amounts in the various categories that are recorded within the paper and I think probably Thank you. I realise this information, it's very depressing information. I think it it was a it it was a very bad er announcement for Lincolnshire, and er, on the strength of that, er, for the benefit of all of us in the county, I just like to lobe a few, as a minister for roads and traffic, er expressing our bitter disappointment really, 'cos it's er, particularly on the T S G, it's a, it's a cut of of er, of forty five per cent against the er er er national cut of of of of of of about half of that. And and and and across the board there has been a cut of er, er of of of just below fifteen per cent, that that the that er er, our cut is forty five per cent , and and I mean, it er, it it it does er er create problems, there's no doubt about it, and that I I got the letter from er which er, Rod instructed to come along to the department to me yesterday, in fact, I did refer very briefly to it, 'cos I'm gonna just before the meeting that er er it it sets out saying that it was a very generous set settlement for ninety-three, ninety-four. Now, of course, we we know that that you know, that that that that er, that even then, part of that settlement has has gone because they've cut off on the of the Western by-pass, I mean, you've still got er, er quite a substantial, er amount of money which has got to be financed from my own funds on that. And er, I did er, er invite members, all members yesterday, and I do have a feed-back here, again, that they do write to lobby on behalf of us, because I, if this is going to be the patent for the future, it's gonna have very serious implications as to what we do in terms of improving the highway infrastructure at Lincolnshire. And this is at a time, of course, when we have other doors opening to us, which we shall need match funding, objective rural Dent, and er, er for the for the for the budget to be, it to have been cut in this way, is is is is very serious. The problem is that the, the present er er er er formula for road pricing, cobra, cobra as it is called. I think sometimes it would be better to call it cobra because it does seem to have a very er er deadly sting as far as Lincolnshire's concerned at the moment. Er, doesn't er er, is based on congestion, and and and and other factors, and it doesn't address the er, the the needs we have er in developing this county, and and to achieve it's er it's potential. I think there is. We are at a point at the moment, with the life of the county, I think that we should great potential and great opportunity available to us, and I do hope that all members will er, and I've written to all our members of parliament with a copy of my letter, er, I had I've had er, I know it's been the Christmas period, and that they're only just getting back into things, and there's been a lot of diversions at length, and I do have a letter from, er I heard from er, Edward, er, Mr Edward Lee, and and, I still have to hear it from er, the rest of them. I have had a message from the Stan Standard Mercury, from Davis, that my a county has been hysterical, we've talked about being paranoid one time this morning. But he he says we're hysterical. Well, if he lived in the north- east, er part of this county, that great ar area where there is very little in terms of infrastructure perhaps er er it's a pity we can't have a few more hysterics and we would perhaps get further down the road. Thank you, Chairman Thank you, Mr Chairman, erm, I'm here to say, it's quite true to say that it does vary from year to year, on er, what our programme is, but er, we we also have to face it, that er,com compared with some other areas, both east midlands and nationally, we do not have the traffic, and this does go against our for T A. Er, the the traffic on our roads Although it's very dense, does not compared with the likes of Kent and the south. But er, yes er, I would have been er, I think if I'd still been in Jim's place, er quite rightly so, getting all that we can for the town. But it does vary from year to year. Thank you, Mr Chairman, erm, I find this absolutely staggering, this settlement. Erm, over the last few months, we've been over our administration, attacked, saying that we don't care about the rural communities, only the conservative party care about the rural communities, that's what we've been told. And then we get a conservative central government, er, cutting the er, funding for the most sparsely pos populated county in the country, not by the same as the rest of the country, but by thirty-one per cent. Over double. Now, something's slightly wrong there, erm, it shows that there is a lot of hypocrisy within the conservative party, er, double standards right the way across the board. Secondly, erm, I'd like to ask o ask the question as well, erm, regarding the transfer from central government grants to S C A's. Could it, could people please stop conferring a minute, er, that is actually the government, saying that they no longer gonna give grants, their going to give us the right to borrow, and are actually encouraging us to do it. that is the effects, I mean they will still give grant, but indirectly through the revenues for and it will be spared but, for a number of years, you can't be absolutely precise about how long. we note a what, a hundred and thirty million pounds worth of road planned for this county. Every one of them that they were gonna do next year. Every time No, no, no. No, no, no. We've had we get a savage thirty-one ke cent, thirty-one per cent reduction, and what do we get, a tiniest whimper from the previous chairman of the committee. Oh well, there's reasons for it. And yet, I can bet that every time, Jim has his committee meeting, they're gonna be hammering on the door, for some by- pass, or some road scheme that they would have done. Yeah, that's right, that's right. Absolutely every one they would have done. That's right. Give him the floor. And what are they doing about it. What they doing for the people of Lincolnshire. Are they gonna go down to see their friends, at Central Government, and say, come on, this thirty-one per cent is totally unacceptable. What they gonna do about it? They took u is that it. Is that the soul er contribution we're gonna get from this conservative group. Well, you know, we have got, haven't got quite the traffic that other places have got. And they're just gonna leave us to deal with it. They're letting the people of Lincolnshire down. That's right. Well, when did we ever ask you, the labour and liberal vice, to come down to Westminster with us, Mr Chairman. That's one of but we but we never did, we all went down,and sometimes we did and sometimes we didn't Part of er,was on about, is that in ninety-five, ninety-six highways by four million quid. Erm, and it was so, it's obviously as good as it was, you know, I think you could resign as chairman, if actually at all, so. a burden of a hundred and thirty million pounds. We would have funded that over ten years. funded. Yes, I heard you, yes, I heard you say the other day, and also did read in the press, where you've been quoted, Councillor Warby, that you would build various by-passes and no doubt you will be putting, I haven't yet heard any amendments to the capital goal. I did sit in yesterday at Transport Exec and Planning, but no doubt they will be forthcoming Mr. Chairman, did I hear correctly that, that the hundred and thirty million would have been funded over ten years. Ridiculous So can you tell us, please, where the additional ten million We only went through Sorry, Mr Chairman, where the additional ten million cuts would have been made to fund that. Well cuts need it. Yeah, I'm pleased that this erm, statement, I think it was in capital monitoring a few weeks ago by Councillor Wyle, is now out into the public domain, because capital monitoring was a a a closed committee. The hundred and thirty pounds that Councillor referred to, is the, are the schemes in totality. A hundred and thirty million. A hundred and thirty million around the county, you know the Lincoln relief road, the eastern relief road, stage one, twenty-five million, the stage two another eight million. Boston The list goes on until we get to a total of a hundred and thirty million. Councillor said that that that that hundred and thirty million could be funded over a period of ten years, at thirteen million pound a year. Now, that is something, that one would find difficult to accept normally, erm, but seeing as our Councillor has been chair of transportation, I believe in the past and also leader of the County Council, that then it it does make one wonder about erm,bud bud budgeting and raising expectations of people around the county unnecessarily. We we've noted the way that every time there is a local issue about a particular road scheme, that the conservatives immediately say, we would have done that next year. Th the will be other new schemes that were, not yet come forward, because the local media have not, erm, addressed a particular area, but as soon as it does in March or April, then the town conservatives would have done that next year. And the, and the list goes on. I think that the point, has to be made that when we've had a transport supplementary grant decision and settlement as poor as this one, then it really is about trying to protect and enhance the people of Lincolnshire and the road network, rather than just for once, party politics, because I can't honestly believe that the conservatives would actually, feel that this is a fair, reasonable settlement. I mean, to be quite honest about it, it's a, it's an unsatisfactory settlement, from whichever political party that you come from, and it's about time, perhaps, the conservatives recognised that you can't support a national government policy that does as much damage to the people of LIncolnshire as this transport supplementary grant settlement has done. Could I just correct you on that, I think it was acknowledged by this vote, er for transport plan settlement. I yes. I You know. I I would have made an oasis, and I would have er tried to achieve a better settlement That is accepted, and in fact we No I'm sorry, no. Information Councillor Well, Councillor very briefly, in response to Councillor referred the same sort of thing from yourself er, chairman, on on numerous occasions. I think it's about time that you stopped bleating. I think it's about time that you stopped blaming, and I think it's about time that you started accepting re le responsibility that you are in it and getting on and making this council. Thank you. We shall accept full responsibility for everything we do. It it does concern me, Chairman, David, Councillor Morbey has just said, I would have made noises, and I would have attempted to get a better settlement. Why won't he do that for the people of Lincolnshire now. I'm not changing my tune, Councillor Wyle knows that in the past I have actually offered to go with them when they've made erm, visits to the minister, and when he said, we we we tried, but we never got anywhere, and on various issues I've said, well perhaps if we got us an all party delegation, at least we could have done no worse. Now why, now is Councillor Warby now saying I would have done it, not I will do it. Okay. Erm, just a point of information, I think er on the hundred and thirty-one million, including the Lincoln, and I think er they would have been you would have been under serious er distress on that, because the information I have had from the Department of Transport, is that if the Lincoln scheme had gone ahead, it would have effectively blocked everything else for the next five years, and that wouldn't have done you any good, from where you're elected, either. So we're looking at it first, I I think in the end, there are schemes that we've got to put on to the back burner, or the, until such times Lincoln develops further, and there is further development. It needs another twenty thousand people, I think,if that's going to go ahead. But the, the fact is, that what I, my plea to you today, and and my plea to the committee yesterday is, that I don't want this to be in the political arena, it is in the political arena, but I think we do need to to er er er take it out of the political arena, for the benefit of of all the people that that put us here. Mm. In this county. Not for the conservative party or the liberal party or the labour party. It is called benefit and and the well being of those kids about there, that we're educating them at our own school, that they can have jobs and work, and if this is going, my fear is, okay we can live within this,s as you say, it may that it's just bad settlement for one year. We shall have to live with it, because er I I don't think that any hope of any redress next year, but the got to be established of a different system, of me a different methodology for the foreseeable years, if we're going to get those schemes through that you supported wholeheartedly and congratulated us and for bringing forward the new road schemes for er the that that that that you so approved so warmly yesterday. Well you, we we can't do those, unless we get er, more cooperation from central government. I I got,we we've established a and I'm delighted that the minister is part of that, because he controls the purse, and the purse strings. Otherwise the forum is just a talking shop. So it is essential that those people that that that control the purse are part of the dialogue, and I I hope David that you will continue to make your submissions, in opposition as I did. the Chair,Chair. Can I come back Er, Mrs Pinchbetter said. She must realise that the conservatives are in opposition. I am not a Chairman, Jill is, Jill Dobsworth is, and the other fact. Yesterday, it was proposed that a committee be formed to look into speed limits. The conservatives asked to be represented on that committee and they were refused by the ruling groups. We were told that you might have as much effect on that as you're having with central government. What is it, you're our Chairman, Mr Chairman, but I am a little concerned, there seems to be two stands this morning. You've already curtailed when, you said you've already spoken, you cannot again. Wh wha what what comment have you got. I'm I'm saying, I'm in the Chair. is, if you are Chairman, be consistent I am consistent. If there's one person speaking Is it, do you wish to comment on this paper? I want to s s comment on on this meeting. Well, come on then. No, no, no, well, that that's within my purview, and the purview of the committee who elected me. Thank you. If you wish to comment on the paper, I give everyone the opportunity, and believe you me, I'm being as very, as fair as I can. But we can only, we can talk as many times as we like, then, Mr Chairman. If I allow you to, yes. Right. I think we've had a fair er debate on that. We have the report and it is for noting. Unless anybody has any er, other amendments to put forward. Do you agree with these recommendations? Agreed. Agreed. Thank you. Er, the next paper is er, the external auditors management letter, and we have with us today, Coopers and Liebrand representatives and I understand Max who, you're going to er, speak to us about Thank you. just remind members by er, way of introduction that this is the the first occasion when the external auditor has been er invited to answer questions and make points on the management er er, letter to the full committee. Er, that's all all I want to say, and I think er Max here, has got erm, something by way of introduction, and then there will be an opportunity to question us. Yeah, not not a form of opening government. Do you want to erm,well I've come today as the partner responsible for recruiting my men for the audit of the County Council, together with my colleague Stephen Critchley, who is the partner responsible for the regularity audit, the main accounts of the County Council accounts. And another senior colleague Steve Mcleod on my right, whose primary responsibility is with the value for money work that we undertake on your behalf. And as we set out in the management letter, it's a requirement of the audit commissioners code of practice, as we do report to areas of all the authorities that we deal with on an annual basis. And indeed,erm, in the papers, summarise, really summarises the work that you undertake and including December ninety-two, to December ninety-three. There's the work that we do erm, most of the that we undertake, actually are erm, engaged in providing an opinion on the accounts of the County Council. But we do have a responsibility for value for money, and legality issues as well, and appendix eight of our paper actually summarises in brief form the work that we've undertaken on your behalf this year. The audit, er, the the accounts your your offices will be assigned er, as of the twenty-third of December, of ninety-three, and, but we're not able yet to conclude the audit as I'm considering an objection which has been received from a member, on the matter of publicity. Erm, the local government act nineteen ninety-two permits the auditor to actually advise the council to er matters which we believe that you should consider in full, er er, County erm, Council meeting, and I'm pleased to confirm that for this year there is nothing of that nature, that er, we would put to you, to refer to. Lincolnshire has a lot of history of being a well managed authority, a proved exercising sound controls on its financial and management affairs, and I'm pleased to say that I'm again in a position to confirm that that is our view, for the conduct of the Council's business in the period on which we are reporting. In Paragraph one oh nine, and one ten,th , I do actually draw your attention to two areas, though I think that members amongst all the issues that we have to deal with erm, to bear in mind in particular, and indeed the first one, probably the most important, in the sense of the longer term financial indications to reduce the extension of it is, limits that are being imposed upon local government generally, and of course here in Lincolnshire in particularly, in particular . And indeed, I think that it is quite clearly the theme, there's been money through the meeting this morning. Er, it is a very difficult climate, it's becoming increasingly difficult, and indeed, it's affecting the work that we do, in the sense that, the more government awards monies for specific purposes,your offices for specific and confirm the expense of those purposes, annual auditors to actually confirm that it has been so spent. And it's increasing the burden of work upon your offices and upon the auditors as well. It is a difficult climate, and the announcement before Christmas that erm, no government expenditure would increase by some two point three per cent, generally across England and Wales, is clearly not erm, worked so well for Lincolnshire with a capping limit increasing only by one point seven per cent , and the S S A, is increasing by one point two per cent . And quite clearly managing your affairs as you have done in the past within this context, becomes more difficult. But I think we see that with the capital programme, that quite clearly you're erm, having to take into account the fact that capital spend erm, cannot be er maintained at the level it has in the past, and indeed I believe you are talking about this matter, er, later on this morning. Yes. Er, but that's an indication of what's happening in that area, and indeed, the members erm, I am pleased to say, have taken the right attitude to that, recognised that that's the case and er addressing that, together with the revenue spend, erm, in a manner which I find is erm, of responsible and approved. In spite of this, there has been serious developments and in this year, and they'll be fully in place next year. And the process under which that was taking place, er reminds you all that you are unhappy with as well. Erm, the monetary outlook is not going to be easy. The erm, any other areas that I've drew particular attention as a, as a, key issue is on the matter of er legality and doing work for other bodies, which has been an issue here which er, as you may recall we mentioned that in the last two or three years. We have done some work with your offices on that, and whilst on most of your activities aren't happy with er the scale of such that it does cause me a problem, there is one particular area that we are in discussion with the Chief Executive, and your offices relating to doing work for other bodies to and the contract vehicle hire service, and er, that's something which we will and no doubt will be brought us in the very near future. Erm,the only other thing I think it remains for me to say is that erm, the work will be undertaken on a value for money nature. Most of that is presently with your offices and draw up a reports in a moment, it was on special education needs, and so on. Erm, we have a programme developing for next year, which we will discuss with your offices, to ensure that we use the time that we validated to your audit er, in an effective, efficient and economic manner. And the regularity work, which is what we call the work on the accounts, the opinion on the accounts, the work seems very well, and the timetable that was agreed with er, the County Treasurer offices. and er, which we finished, and I would really just like to say that erm, thanks very much for the cooperation that we received from the offices generally across the authority. I think it's fair to say, that we do not all matters, and I hope that nobody's here that would appreciate that the audit role is an independent role. We have considerable rights, of inspection, search, discussion, and the right to documents. Er, your officers have always, extremely cooperative in that way, and that they're a particular group of officers, they don't like to agree with everything that we say, and we have to go with robust discussions. Ultimately, I believe that er, the best interest is leave it to ourselves by that particular process, and with that Chairman, I wish to conclude. Thank you very much. Anyone wish to Councillor No, it's just a general enquiry, really, I I guess erm, erm, you you've, through you Chairman, I I've I've heard about the involvement of officers, but I wonder what extent there is involvement of of of members in the the the process of preparing those reports and presentations of the report, is is there any member comment on that. Would you like to, Certainly, erm, it has changed this year, erm, but the arrangements now are, that we produce our report across the year, with i , and as you can appreciate the report summarises various, of one thing we done during the with officers around the county round the Erm, at the, at the end of November, we commit to writing this report in summary version, which we then discuss with the Chief Executive and the County Treasurer in particular, they take whatever soundings they wish with other offices and then we agree that letter. At that point, once the letter is finalised, we then did have a meeting with two members, the Chairman of this Committee that'll be Councillor Park, to just go through it, and that happened on Monday morning of this week. Great long speech. Thank you. So our involvement was for it to be presented to us before it came to this meeting. Any other queries on this? One question, Mr Chairman, er er er information really er on this section one one oh. Erm,does specific questions relating to er, matters that the auditor has brought to you, you've mentioned the Chief Executive, but a general opinion, really. Is he saying, I understand sir, that you, you approve of cross border tampering from other local authorities or not? Erm, may I take the opportunity to say that cross border is a bit of a misnomer, erm, it's, the correct term is really doing work for other bodies. It's absolutely clear that the public body should be doing work for private sector organisations, and er, to my knowledge, Lincolnshire County Council have not been to that particular erm, definition, although other authorities do and I have had to stop other authorities undertaking contracts where they are er private sector organisations. So far as doing work with public sector bodies erm, the business services act of nineteen seventy-six came into stand, this creates a lot of er,which work had been done. Erm, the main requirement is, that where you have resources or applied property to discharge your own functions, people come under the then you are at liberty to use those resources where it doesn't increase the capacity to do work for other public bodies, but you should neither increase your own capacity to do work with other bodies nor should you seek to do derive a profit from the services that you provide to, I don't know, public bodies. Does that answer your question. That answers my question, yes. Councillor Weller? Well, I'll ask er, oh they're not here. Oh, thank you, first of all for this statement. I think it's the longest we've approved and Long may it's costing you. Er, but the question that I'd like to a a ask is, erm,reducing, er it's about capital, because er, where the capital is being in use, and and like yesterday reducing capital is always an easy option. Requesting when there was fifty million programmes, and that it's it's it's an option that governments always take. I must admit,weak option, but its an easy option. Lincolnshire's capital, lively financed from revenue, of course grants, and property sales etc. are sold, that money can be transferred into services, and money can be borrowed. So it is easy option to borrow and spend that money on services. are rather different, if the builder wants us to borrow on their behalf, that's one thing, whether we should borrow on our behalf, is a question that one has to. So would he have any comments to make, say next year at this time. Or is there an area which you would get into on the question of whether how hard we should struggle before we er, do that sort of thing, or whether it's purely a matter for for the County Council Could I be before you answer that question, you did ask, didn't you, ask him to be hypothetical and say what would he say in a year's time, and I think what Well, I meant, I I I I mean, it is his job talking to comment on Well, I'll ask him. is it, is it he can answer that question, is it he's job to look in what er, happened in a year's time. It is not my job to comment on the policy of the County Council. Expect only in that, it was a danger that you were going to incur expenditure, which is of an unlawful n nature, pending on the clearly wish to comment. Or indeed, if the consequences of that particular policy decision is such that the erm, the revenue considerations were serious and improvable and in which case, you would not be deriving value for money, and I most certainly would have a comment to make. Johnny , Johnny would ask you if you did the auditing for Westminster, but, er that's a bit wrong at this stage. I do not wish to discuss Well, I, seriously, Mr Chairman, conservative group for the County Council of Westminster is a lot better than it is. You'll have to write to Lady Anyone else wish to comment on If not. Could I, thank you very much, sir, and you're, thank you for coming in, and the way you presented the report, it's a difficult report, and we hope that er, we're in a similar situation Thank you. Right, erm, I'm not too sure Paper ten, Treasury Management, and I believe this is going to be taken by Noel Harrison. Chair. It's er almost two years ago now that erm, and it, I'd like you to wait, but not entirely as a consequence of B C C I's er, demise, that Citra published a code of practice to Treasury Management and a guide to the Chief Officers who were members of that Institution. Erm, in terms of Treasury Management. One of the requirements of that particular council guides to the Chief Officers was that, they should bring before the councils a statement that Treasury Management policy and arrangements and that, in fact, was done in the autumn of ninety-two, and the council adopted a particular statement which reflected its circumstances at the time, erm, and the then policy. By and large that particular go erm, statement, which is actually embodied in financial regulations also, envisage erm, a a situation where there would be no long term borrowing. Erm, since that particular time, the financial climate has significantly changed, and the government policy in relation to certain areas of expenditure which I comment , which I commented on earlier, erm, has also changed, in that instead of paying direct grant, they are now issuing credit approvals, which permits borrowing to agreed levels within the constraints of the capital control mechanisms, that the government have in place, the controlling overall levels of indebtedness of councils. Erm, whilst those credit approvals do bring reimbursement to the council over time, the equivalent amount to grant in broad terms. What they, you do is, in fact shift the incidence on cash flow. Given that change in circumstances, we, it was felt that it would be prudent to propose to members a change to the actual statement which was in place, so that it would permit consideration of longer term borrowing, in particular circumstances and where it's in the interest of the authority, and have the flexibility to do so, in relating to the prudent managements of its affairs, Chairman. I think all those who the statement, I don't propose to go through it in detail. I think I could probably stop there. Thank you. Papers headed erm, Treasury Management, but essentially it's about taking out loans and borrowing and I don't think that this County Council ought to be defensive in the slightest about having a tool such as borrowing available to us in terms of financial management. I think I want to start by reminding everybody that borrowing to finance capital spending is the norm, for almost all local authorities in this country. I want then, to go on to say that if we take a view, about fairness, and I think that that's an important word that we, certainly from our side, want to use regularly and practice. If we take a view about fairness, then the funding of capital schemes is fairer if the charge and the cost of the those schemes is spread over the life of the the asset. Because then all the people that use that asset, not just now but in the future,co make a contribution towards its purchase. In other words, that we're spreading out the costs and the charges amongst the people that actually use the services, the road, the school, the particular asset that we erm, would be funding. I think it's also easy to argue that if you take money out of government allocation for service delivery greater than the amount that is necessary, then actually, the people that are getting in in in the sense of capital schemes, the losers are the people that lose out on front line direct services. To give you an example, in nineteen ninety-three, ninety-four, the capital financing standard spending assessment allocation, for Lincolnshire was twenty-three point seven million. We spent twenty-nine point one million, which was in excess of five point four million. That five point four million could have been spent on front line social services, for example. So in a sense, what we're doing by funding and delivering a very high capital programme out of revenue, rather than borrowing, is we're detracting from our ability to deliver important services. I think it's also reasonable to point out, that at the moment, the County Council does enter into finance lease arrangements to meet the business needs, of for example Translink and Computer Services. It's been accepted that these are credit arrangements under the local government Planning and Land Act, so therefore, it is not unreasonable to argue that borrowing will not represent a new departure for the County Council in terms of being able to control capital spending. We can also recognise, as we did, at an, on an earlier paper that it is national government policy and increasingly so, to encourage the development of capital schemes, borrowing, we noted that in relation to transport and the availability of S C A's I think it's also right to say that the government does set down the level of borrowing which can be entered into in in any one year, that is the credit approvals are controlled by the government and they do make them available to the County Council and to district Councils, so in a sense, the government is both saying that we expect borrowing to be a feature of a budget and also that we want to control, and restrict the amount of money that can be borrowed through the amount of credit approvals. Final reason, is that fo for borrowing, is that we could take a view, that borrowing in a particular year has to take account of the of the valuable circumstances at that particular time. We could note, and I think that it's right and prudent to do so, that the current levels of interest rates are at their lowest historically for some twenty years. They may even go lower, but there's certainly the clear indications from the city that, and from informed sources that interests rates are likely to rise towards the end of this year. If that's the case, then we could argue,an and will do, that now is a good time to borrow on a fixed term basis over a long period. I think to sum up, I would be wanting to say, that this County Council takes a view that it is about the provision of services. Important services have to be given priority. When you realise that we have had one of the most difficult spending erm, decisions taken by National Government, then the time has got to come at so some stage as to whether you defend a principle of Lincolnshire being a de a longer term debt free authority, or whether you look around the county and say, important services must be protected. We take a view that this is both so sound financial management and delivery quality services to the people of Lincolnshire. We think they deserve and want no less. Councillor Thank you. Well, it's erm, fairly local incident, that this paper has been er borne, er to give the er permission for borrowing, when the labour, liberal er controlling group find themselves in this embarrassing position, er, of having to find an extra eleven million pounds to maintain their services. They've got themselves into this mess in just nine months. Now let me cut through all that science, that er, Councillor Parker has has tried to make this issue. Erm, budgeting whether it's a five er, five hundred million budget, or your own household budget, er, in basic terms, is is fairly simple. And anyone who has controlled a a household budget, will well understand that in the present sort of climate, that is the real world outside this County Council. You have to cut you cloth according to the means. And when wages and inflation are running at less than two per cent, you don't go out and increase your spending by four or five per cent . And you certainly don't go out, and then start economics of the mad-house. What do you do? What do the the balance very shortly. Erm when I think of you and I do, when we're confronted with the challenges in our household budgets. You use your Access Cards. We look at things that we would like to do, and set our priorities. Unavoidably, we have to delay some decisions, we put off other decisions, we look at other alternatives, that is the way that you prudently manage budgets. You do not go out and borrow. This County Council under this administration are facing identifying simple economic rules of brevity. They operate outside. Someone else can pick up the bill. The bottom line is, that if you are having to use Council enforcement to repay interest, you cannot spend the same Council tax revenues in providing services. The customer is the people of Lincolnshire that we represent, they are going to lose out by this sort of policy and we oppose the principle of borrowing for these sort of reasons, are part of it. Thank you, Chairman, I, firstly I'm indebted to Mr Harrison, here, for a new phrase into the English language, as we're being recorded this morning. He used the word, shift the incidence of cash flow. In other words, that's, covers a multitude of sins, but basically it means, borrowing. And borrowing means pay later. I'm dead against this, er, on principle, I think it's cutting the first sod of the hole that you're preparing to dig yourselves. Secondly, erm, I am indebted to Councillor Parker for not being mealy-mouthed about this. He's saying, quite specifically what his political objective is, and that is, that they can spend more revenue on their political priorities, that they choose to spend it on, and it is a way of transferring capital monies into revenue, and it's as simple as that. And I object to it, Yes. Er, can I ask for a point of clarification. In the past, er authorities with er er a debt of being limited with the use of their capital receipts. We are, we are debt free, we've been debt for a long time. And I'm against the er policy of borrowing. I think it's retrogrades debt . Erm, I agree with my colleagues for what's been said, so I won't say any more about that, but it is the point that what happens to the capital receipts, in the future. The position with the County Council is that while has no long term debt, it has never satisfied the tests of central government, for the capital control regime. Which they class as a debt free authority. That requires two conditions, one that you have no long term debt, and that under the capital control regime which exists on the legislation, you have what is termed a nil or negative credit ceiling. Whilst we satisfied one of those conditions, the authorities never satisfied both. The fact that, one has as a as a council, credit approvals, it does allow you to set them against capital receipts in in further financing new capital works, to the extent that you don't use them for other purposes. The government are actually indifferent as to whether you you borrow, and consume your capita er, your credit approvals, or whether you consume your credit approvals by applying them to capital receipts which will be used to buy further capital assets. Because in their terms, the object of the control regime, is to force down aggregate levels of indebtedness, and there are mechanisms wi within which it works which do that. But the County Council still has some longer term debt, not external but internally, that is being paid now and not over time, and so the position actually will not change, so long as the Council continues to have more credit approval than it requires to use the new borrowing. Can I, can can can I just come back on that. Wh what what level are are capital approvals? What are they running at, erm, you know. In the last year? Over the last year, something over seventeen million, in the forthcoming year there will be a review for about, I think from memory of ar of around about fourteen million. I think that's supplementary. Including the supplementary credit approvals, they're just short of seventeen million. It's about thirteen point four million basic credit approvals, and about three point three million supplementary credit approvals. So it's sixteen point seven million in total. Councillor Yes, thank you. I hold Port erm, borrowing, and I think some Tory members are being disingenuous to say the least on this issue. It's Councillor Box said, the mess that you are in. This is a direct result of the Tory government cutting our late support grant. It's not a mess that we're in, it's your Tory government are doing this. If you're saying you're not supporting borrowing, it's, I think you've got a duty to say, what services you're going to cut. If you cannot just go along and say no we're not borrowing and live within your budget as you are saying. We're talking about essential services. In education, for example, we have a a rising pupil numbers. We have more children needing God,but, no, for ease of er, management, what we'll do is we'll stick to the teams on the tables where you are now. Erm, working in, what, one team of four and two teams of three. Can I ask you though to devise a name that you as a team would wish to be known by, and then I can start er,on the scoreboard. So? March , Right, have you got a name? The Losers The Losers I should ban that as er, totally unacceptable. Middlemarch, because No, I mean , The Experts, With you, were you all watching? the Experts, yes. They are mystic, I don't Did you miss it last night then? Last night. So is it Middlemarch or Experts? Sorry? Middlemarch, it's Middlemarch. It's to say anything else. Young males,march. And the third team? Wall Street. Wall Street, alright. Good. Now all good teams, all good quizzes have erm, rules. And phrases. Come on this is Abbey Life, come on. Erm, all quizzes have rules, there's basically just one rule, that anything I say or do is right, but, and that's the rules. Yes, it seems reasonable? Deathly silence. You're the ombudsman. That explains it a bit more then. What's the difference between you. I'll ask you a question, if you get it right, without any help from your team or anybody else, you're going to get three points for your team. If you need a little bit of nudging by the people working with you, er, then there's a possible two points for the team. If you then pick up a bonus, because the team couldn't answer it maybe, er, you will get a bonus for your team. However, I am not fair, because the world isn't fair. So if for any reason I feel like adding on some points I will do, and equally I'll decide to take some points off if I feel like it. So, as I say, we go back to rule one, everything I do is right. Yes? O K any questions? Excellent. Looking at me totally confused, that's the best way to start. Right, David, we'll start with you then. We're talking Covermaster here, what's the purpose of the Covermaster Plan? Description of it, or purpose of it? The purpose. The purpose. Er, er, protection. Protection, there you are. Nothing difficult. Right John, can you define the Covermaster Plan for me? Flexible, whole of life,assure Almost,Anything, to add to that? Flexible, whole of life, assurance, anything else? Er, la, la, la, la A little bit of help from your friend. Unit linked. Unit linked. Oh, yes, yes, yes, right. Yes, O K, so just the two, for Middlemarch. Er, Gerald, here am I, Mrs. Joe Public, and you've got to explain to me unit linking. Hm, mm, er, basically, er, what actually happens, is with your premiums, each month it buys X amount of units, Right, Er, those units are used to purchase X amount of life cover, depending on how much you w , er, assurance you want in your claim, how much is to go towards savings, how much to go towards, whatever you want in your plan. The price of the units are actually allocated, erm, to each of those, in individual areas. Erm, sort of. Sort of, let's think, er, tell me more about the units themselves. Well the units themselves are actually erm, bought each month. Right. And they're actually bought in erm, at the offer price. Right. And what you have to, what actually happens, you have what is known as an offer price, and a bid price. Right. The offer price is when you buy into the plan, and bid price is when you actually erm, sell. O K, excellent, excellent. I think I'll erm, I'll give you three marks for it, but I'll give you the opportunity for three bonus marks now, because here am I, Mrs. Public, and I didn't understand a word of that. I want to know what unit linking will do for me. Will I actually be buying a unit linking life assurance plan, and not a with profits life assurance plan. So what's the benefits for me, in the unit linking? The benefits for you in unit linking is actually it's going to relate to like the cost of inflation, Yes, good. Erm,Erm, a, a, no, not really, they're qualifying times, erm, O K, you pick up a bonus for that, anybody else on the team come up with something positive about unit linking that'll make me say, yes, I like this one? You er,ma , it balances out the er, benefits from like the whole of the term and it's not necessarily, like a with profits system, you get a lot of bonuses at the very end. Right, actually that's very true, that's a v , that's a very good point. Yes, certainly, I'll give you a point for that. Anybody else? David have you got anything to add? No not really, No, look he's gone to sleep then there, , I agree he's gone to sleep. Anybody on this table anything to add? Eas ,eas , easy travel, easier opportunity for people to, to spread their investment. It's an easier way into the stock market, So I can invest in the Stock Market without having to be knowledgeable about it? yes And I can spread my investment. I like both of those, in fact I'll give you two marks for that. Because, two things there. I can spread the risk between all the various er, homes for the unit linking, funding in invests in, in various assets. What type of assets? this time, what type of assets do er, funds invest in? Property. Property, Equity Stocks Equity and stocks Fixed interest Fixed interest arrangements, O K, bonus for that team, well done. So I can spread the risk by using a variety of investment areas. It's exactly what you said, and the other thing you said was? I can't remember now, spread the risk, and I don't have to get do I? No I don't have to make the decisions. Who's making the decisions? Fund manager Fund manager, another bonus, excellent, yes. O K. So we must be getting round to Sue's question. Oh Right Sue, what does it mean, a whole of life policy? Erm, it means that, you take out the policy for the whole of you life, no matter how long you live, so it keeps going until you die. Yes, O K. Erm, No that's right. No, I'll leave it. You worked hard for that, you didn't get any points. Life's not fair, anyway, is it? Right, a whole of life, yes, it pays out when you die. It's not something, like the one term assurance, you know, when you have a policy for ten years, and if you live longer than the ten years, tough. You know. Just your hard luck. O K, erm, minimum and maximum ages at entry. Janet? Erm, seventeen and seventy one. Oh, er, seventy. Minimum age at entry? yes. Seventeen. Seventeen, the maximum age? Seventy one,next birthday. Next birthday, next birthday. Only the two, you missed off the next birthday. I will give them a bonus for not making a fuss about losing their marks earlier. Right, June, er four ways that you can write the policy? Erm, on joint life. Joint life. Erm, own life yes Joint life, last survivor yes And life of the Excellent, a little bit of the first one you just said, joint life, if you want to be First claim First claim. First claim, O K, only the two marks, because he jumped in too quickly there, so you get docked one of your marks you see. Right, er, Philip, Philip. Erm, what's the minimum monthly and annual level premium? Er, minimum monthly premium is twenty pounds Mhm And the minimum annual premium is two hundred. Good. Ilias, if the minimum monthly premium is twenty pound a month, level and the minimum annual premium is two hundred pound a month, does that mean if I pay annually I get a discount, it costs me less? Yes Yes,Andrew, what do you reckon? If yes, at Leyton Buzzard they give discount to pay annually, what do they do in, can't remember, Hanley? Well no, because they reckon they'd be, invested two hundred pounds right at the very beginning, you'd most probably make the, the f , fall short over the rest of the year, in the investment. You're still sort of saying I get a discount really, you're still saying it's only going to cost me two hundred a year. Yes? Yes. Yes. Yes, I suppose so, yes. What about in,Haverford West? Well I would have thought you'd get a discount if you're buying units in the fund then you benefit due to paying annually, if, if you paid in a lump sum erm, you're going to have more units, you know, at the start. Which is almost like saying I get a discount. No, you're still paying the same, it's just Ah, let me put it more clearly, because I don't think I've put the question clearly enough. Let's say, that me as an individual, if I was erm, buying a Covermaster Plan, for twenty pound a month, the minimum premium, let's say I could get fifty thousand pounds worth of cover. If I wanted to pay annually would I still get fifty thousand pounds worth of cover, or would I have to pay two hundred and forty pounds per year? That's changing the question slightly, so, let's go back to Ilias, what do you reckon? Two hundred. Pardon? Two hundred and you get Two hundred, so you still, you still reckon, you reckon it's a discount? yes O K, er, let's go back to Andrew, how much would I pay for my fifty thousand pounds of cover if I wanted to pay annually, will it cost me two hundred or two forty? Two hundred, I still think, yes. Two hundred, and who's the other person I asked? Two hundred. Two hundred, anybody disagree? Go on then. Sue do you disagree? I disagree. You can have a point for disagreeing because you're right. Yes, erm, you get what you pay for. Right, so, if it was going to cost me twenty pound a month for fifty thousand pounds worth of life cover, and I wanted to pay it annually, I'd have to pay it twelve times, I'd have to pay two hundred and forty pounds. Minimum premiums are just the smallest amount that Abbey as a company can make a profit on. So, we could have somebody start at twenty pound a month and we know we can make a profit and we can provide a good service to the clients, a good level of cover. When it comes to annually, we will accept two hundred pounds per year as a minimum premium, but in this case, they'd probably get about forty five thousand pounds worth of cover. They'd get less cover. You get what you pay for in this world. O K, any, any questions? Is the difference then because they're saving it in It's, it's yes, in, in that respect. We can make a profit from two hundred pounds a year. Er, you might just say well why don't we pass that on to the clients, but we don't. Right. They, they've got to pay twelve times. I think it just gets too complicated when you look at the various contracts. If you have different levels of payment, it just gets very, very complicated. Any fu , everybody happy with that? Excellent. Who had the last question? Ilias Ilias Who had the last question? Ilias Excellent. A bonus for being honest on this team, and being awake. So it must be Andrew, your question, alright. Erm, what's the minimum monthly and annual escalating premium? Erm, Philip or somebody gave me the level premium. Well the minimum monthly is still twenty pounds. Right, so what's the minimum annually, the minimum we can make a profit on? I say that's still, still at, still at two hundred pounds again. Absolutely, tried, I tried to put you off, but I didn't manage it did I. O K, good. So, we must be, are we back with you David, or with you Sue? Back with David, ah, right. How does the escalating premium work? Er, increases by ten percent simple interest per year, for the first five years, and then stays level. Excellent, well done. Well done. Right. Let's , yes, Shirley? Can I have the last question? How does the escalating premium work then Shirley? Just as John said. John, you got my name wrong. Next question, John, er, right. Erm, what's the current, it's a bit d , difficult terminology here, what's the current cost taken out of the fund each month for expenses? The expense charge is usually it's called, but just occasionally it comes out as policy fee. Erm, how much is it? What the actual fee itself? Yes, in pounds and pence. Oh, one pound nineteen? One pound nineteen, what do you reckon Kim? I thought it was a percentage? Ah, no, this is the bit that comes out annually, Right I know what you're thinking about? What do you reckon table at the top? Yes, we'll go along with one nineteen. You'll go along with one nineteen. What about the others? Yes, you'll go along with it. Yes, absolutely right, yes, well done. One, two, three. Was that me or No Right, erm, ah, I think the best thing we can do is to look at the rate book for this question because you may have remembered it from er,you may not. Kim, could I ask you to pass those, the Covermaster rate books that under please. You obviously keep taking the rate No, but, but this, this problem, this was on , this was on actually. Have we got one yet? Yes, you haven't had them yet. Er, and we'll be looking at them later. That's great, thank's Kim. Is the on the C V T, but again it's, it's easier to look at something when we're talking about this, so I'm going to ask you to look at the Covermaster rate book, which doesn't have page numbers, but I want you to find the allocation to units table which is about four or five pages in. One, two, no, I'm wrong, three pages in. Allocation to units table. That's right. Yes, that's right. Right, everybody there. Oh, yes, yes. Allocation to units, third page in. Now, this concept is the same whatever product we're talking about, and we'll be talking about four products this weeks, and several more next week. And I've got to tell you it's erm, an area which they ask questions about very frequently. So if we can be quite clear in our minds from now, you might get questions on it tomorrow, you might get questions on it at some point in the future during the week, but they inevitably come at some point. And we're talking about allocation to units. We're talking about how much of the client's premium, let's say he was paying thirty pounds a month, actually ends buying units in his fund. Now if you look at that table, you can see that it's set out, on the left-hand side, the age at entry, and the top, whether he pays his premiums escalating, or level. So the very simple question is, if I wanted a higher allocation to units, who am I asking the question to, Sue is it yours. Yes, it must be yours, Sue or something. Yes, it's yours now. If I wanted to get the highest allocation to units would I pay level or escalating premiums by looking at that table? Level Level. Absolutely right. The question they will ask you, very frequently is, during the first years of the plan, there is a reduced allocation to units. They buy less units with the client's premiums. One the reasons we can see, one the things that affects the allocation you can see, is whether they pay level or escalating. You can see on the Covermaster, on an escalating plan, it's twenty percent each year for the first four years. So only twenty percent, only one fifth of this client's premium is going to buy units in those first four years. So only six pounds a month is actually going to get invested in his fund in the first four years. After that the total amounts, or even a bit more if we look at it, erm, what over factor, Janet, no John, it must be John's turn now, affects the allocation to units in those first four years by looking at that table. One is where they pay in escalating or level, the other, what else affects the allocation? Have you got it from the tables. Is age. It's age, yes, I would have said that, I would have said that, I thought it was too easy. I know, I know. Well I like to make things easy for you John. Thank you. Er, two marks. Because you can see if the client's up to the age of forty, he gets a higher erm, a reduced allocation, but if he's seventy, he gets actually forty percent allocated in the first year, and he gets er, a full allocation from then on. So those two factors affect how much of the client's premium buys units in the first four years. Whether they pay level or escalating premiums and his age. Income might insurance his age, and other things it might be the term of the policy, we're looking at how long he pays it, because if you think, Covermaster, his age affects the term. If somebody takes a Covermaster plan out at twenty five, we expect them to be paying it for a long time, if he takes it out at fifty five, we expect him to pay less. Philip? Th, the ag , the maximum age of entry is seventy one, next birthday isn't it? That's right. Why on the, hm, why on the chart do they show it seventy one to a hundred and five? Because people can still be paying their premiums once they go past seventy one, they haven't got to cash it in. So you're say , ah, right, no it's just a , er, it says next birthday, at entry it says It says in the first b , yes well, mm, it doesn't make sense, because they can't have it after seventy one can they? er, initially. O K, so those are the two factors that affect the allocation to units in the first four years. The next question's got to be to Kim, if only six pounds of his premium is buying units in, if he has an escalating plan in his first four years, what's the other twenty four pounds going towards? Administration Administration, yes, which is a nice way of putting it. Another way of putting it? Erm, the associate's commission. Absolutely. One, two, three and a bonus. It's the type of client, life assurance clients are the type of client where the commission's all come out in the first four years. Which is why the clients are sold a plan inappropriately and they cash it in, they get very little back. Your commissions are paid by the client over those first four years. Erm, that accounts for the reduced allocation and the setting up fees as well. But it's main , it's mainly your commission. Now if you've got somebody who you are protecting their family, and they'll be paying that plan twenty five years or more, the fact that they pay commissions out for the first four years is immaterial, what they want is peace of mind and protection. Erm, it could have been spread out over the whole twenty five years as it is with other products, but in life assurance at the moment, it's out of those first four years. But you can see why if you're selling inappropriately, if you sell someone for example, a savings plan, and they cash it in the first four years, and they don't even get what they paid in it, how they're going to be very annoyed, because from what they could see, they were getting a savings plan. If it runs for the ten years, they're going to out-perform the banks and building societies, and they're going to be very happy. So appropriately sold, there is no problem, but if it's not appropriately sold, you can see that people really do, don't get back what they put in. So that's the allocation to units. Erm, and I've just asked John, so I must be now with, no I've just asked Kim, so I must be now with Philip. Yes? Philip, looking at that page, erm, after the first four years, two other factors affect the allocation to units, and that information is in the bottom of that second page. Can you give me one of them. And obviously Janet, you'll be giving me the other one, so if you can take the time to look at it. Erm, well it's the er, year ruler. Absolutely, Yes, it's the sex. It's the sex Do you sex It's the sex that does it It's the sex that does it. What's this,or something. Or even if? Or even if. It great that you've got me totally confused here. Erm. It actually is part of the answer that if,you quite amaze me Yes, a combination of er, of age and sex really. Er,a male, a male up to erm, well, a male or female up to erm. If you jump, yes you're looking at the right place, but you've jumped ahead. What is determined by the client's age and gender? Right, oh, the er, the amount of erm, additional units or looking Not quite , not quite, he's jumped ahead a little bit, can you help him out on the table? Waiver of premium. It's waiver of premium. Absolutely, so it's the cost of waiver of premium. Waiver of premium you know, as a benefit, you know about waiver of premium. I'll pick it up later. But it's the one thing that actually comes out of the premium before the units are bought, because it's a percentage. And it's a percentage of the premium so it's a fixed amount. And if you look at the bottom of that table, somebody up to the age of thirty nine, will pay two percent of their premium erm, for the waiver of premium benefit. Anybody from forty to forty nine, will pay three percent and then they've got this strange idea that ladies over the age of fifty are going to have more time off work through illness, so they're going to charge us four percent, and the men three percent. Er, that's the cost to waiver of premiums. So Janet, your question, which is not as I in , intimated it might be at all, so you, you can be well annoyed, erm, if you're setting up a, a joint life policy with waiver premium on both people, and the wife is fifty one, and the husband is forty, how much will be deducted from their units according to waiver of premiums? Take the wife's age, the wife is forty three? The, the wife is fifty one, and the husband is forty. Oh, I get, yes I see, yes. Erm,seven percent. Seven percent, you have to add them together. You have to add the cost of waiver on a joint life policy, you have to add, add the costs together. Absolutely. Good. She even got round giving me the wrong answer first, which I thought was quite subtle. Well done. Erm, so the next question must come to, to John, or is it Kim, it must be Andrew. It must be Andrew, right. Looking at that page, once the plan has been set up, after those first four years, whether the client has waiver of premium or not, actually affects the allocations to units. We've established that's a nice table there to tell you. There's one other factor, at the bottom of that, er page, will tell you something about the allocation to units. If they don't have the waiver of premiums they get more units, because the more money goes into the er, whatsit. Absolutely true. But it wasn't what I was asking, so I'm going to give you the points, but it's absolutely true. So we must move on to Philip, no? Not again. Not again, it must be John then, John? Oh, sorry. No, no, it's good. David David, it's David. You ought to get a bonus scheme up just for that. No, no, no, no, no, no. That's too generous. Erm, what other factor, other than whether they have waiver of premium or not affects the allocation to units. Well wriggled there Andrew, that was er, a good wriggling effort. Read another page. Total premium. Ah right, what about the total premium? Well whether it's up to, seven hundred and seventy nine pounds ninety nine P per annum , yes Erm, if it's up to that, it's a hundred and three percent. Right. And if it's seven hundred and eighty per annum, or seventy pounds per month, er, and, and over, it's a hundred and four. Absolutely, how much they pay? Throughout our policies, anybody paying up to seventy eight pounds a month gets one allocation, anybody who can afford, and will pay more than seventy eight pounds a month will get a higher allocation. An extra one percent. Right, this will keep coming up throughout the er, products. Can we just be clear in our minds before we move on, how it affects. We're talking about the allocation of the premium to buy units. Two factors affect it in the first four years. That's whether you pay level or escalating and the age of the client. After that, throughout the rest of the term, they have a reduced allocation if they have waiver of premium, and they have an increased allocation if they pay more than seventy eight pounds a month, or seven hundred and eighty pounds a year. So the premium level and whether or not they have wa , waiver of the premium affects it. Er, next question, John? You have a client who has waiver of premium And he's still paying his premium for his Covermaster, will we actually give him more units? No No we don't. We don't actually make up, he still carries on paying the same, we don't, we don't increase the allocation, when he gets to sixty, or sixty five or whenever. So, where are we John. One, two, three, well done. Any questions on allocations before we move on? Yes, how do you decide on a hundred and three or a hundred or four for allocation? Just to be awkward. I mean, literally, you'll get, er, you invest the thirty thousand units, er, and you'll get a hundred and three pounds extra percent of the money of the money invested. So if three percent is, what, I don't know, what is it, ninety P or something? You get an extra ninety P, buying units for you. Alright. Erm, we've just asked John so we must be now with Kim, are we? No we're not, we're with Gerald Gerald Gerald, yes, absolutely. Erm, we have a client, we do have clients, we have lots of client. We have a client, who shall we have as the client? Erm, right, we'll have Shirley as the client, and we're a life company and we're looking at the cost of providing Shirley with life cover. So we're looking at the amount we take out of her plan each month to cover for life cover. We call it the life cover charge, or technically, er, a phrase I'm sure you're used it, the mortality reduction. What factors will we take into account when we're assessing the cost of life cover for Shirley? We take into account her age. Age, yes. Erm, the level of life cover required. Absolutely. The level of cover required, good. Erm, medical factors. Health, yes. Erm, occupation. Occupation, yes. Erm, there's one more I think. So we look at the age, look at the level of cover, health, you look healthy Shirley, are you in good health? Right,occ , you don't do any dangerous occupations, not a steel scaffolder or anything? You know? No I think sex on premiums. Er, the premiums, we do take into account sex or gender, yes. Erm, it actually affects the, the rate. Yes But it is taken into account if we're talking about the cost of life cover. One more. Anybody on the table? Hobbies and pastimes. Hobbies and pastimes. Have you got any dangerous pastimes, Shirley? I go hand-gliding. You go hand-gliding. Right One, two. Just the two, because er, Andrew helped you out. Good. Actually, er, as a point, if you find a client who goes hand-gliding, who goes stock car racing, don't always assume that they're going to be rated, you just submit it to the underwriters, and they make their own decision. I've got a client who races stock cars, but as he only does it three or four times a year, they don't actually charge him any extra at all. So, it's not essential, but we will look at it. Good, well done. Right, erm, Philip, Susan It's me I think. Sue, Sue, yes? Erm, when can a client claim under the terminal illness ben , benefit? What illnesses do you mean? No not what illnesses, terminal illness. Oh, Terminal illness, oh, sorry. When can he, when can he claim? Erm, if he's been going to er, erm, in the unlikely, er, twelve months , that it's unlikely that he's going to have more than twelve months to live. yes, if he's been diagnosed as er, as a terminal illness. I E, he's likely to die within the next twelve months. Then the sum assured is payable, just as if he had actually had died. O K, good. Sorry, just a quick question there. The , there's two , there's two parts of it,tw , a diagnosis and twelve months? Well,th , the definition of a terminal illness as regards that is, according to the underwriters, is that the client's life is likely to die in the next twelve months. Right, O K, I understood it was the time factor that was , right. Yes, that's when, that's when they put no limit on it. Right, erm, Reviews. Erm, reviews, reviews, we're up, Sue, so it must be, John. John John again, right. When are the reviews held on a Covermaster Plan? Ten, five and one. Ten, five and one, mm, interesting. Explain. Oh, right. Erm, on the tenth anniversary of the Yes, good. The policy. yes Every five years after the age of fifty or fifty five, I can't remember quite which, and then one year after the age of, after sixty five. Right, and one other time. Er, pass. The end of the erm, yes, right The selected time, the time, the selected period The selected period, good. The first review's after ten years, then every five years up to the age of sixty five, then annually. But if you get to the end of the selected period, there's always one. But, I, I misunderstood, I obviously got it wrong then. I thought it was at the tenth anniversary, every five years after that, I didn't realise that came into, John said it was. yes, yes. Up to the age of sixty five. Up to the age of sixty five, and then Oh I'm sorry I misunderstood John, then I've And then, and then annually after that. yes, I thought he said, after the age of fifty five, I did He did, yes Yes, yes. Some people have Then the extra five for up There you have, let's have it back for honesty. No, no, you were only honest because they made you be honest. Right, I er, I heard you say the right answer, so I was obviously incorrect. But is everybody quite clear then? The first one at ten, every five years up to the age of sixty five, then annually, and there's one at the end of the selected period. O K. Good, Kim, erm, how does the client, oh, what is the selected period? It's defined at the onset of the policy. Mhm The ten period being the qualifying period. So for a minimum of ten years. yes. Or whatever, erm, the client chooses, to cover the specific period of their life, that they need life cover for. Absolutely right, good. So, in effect, it could look like that, yes? . Where we have a client who has a need for the first ten years for it looks like a hundred and ninety thousand pounds worth of life cover, at the end of the ten year period, the need is reduced, maybe the children have left home, so sum assu , assured reduces down to, in this case, it looks like to be about fifty thousand for the rest of the time. Good, well done. Can I ask another quick question? In practice, does that happen very often? That people will, will deliberately put it down half way through the term? Well let's, let's before we answer that, let me ask erm, Philip a question. We get to the end of the selected period, Yes What options does the client have? Well he can er, he can come down to the original reduced figure. Absolutely, yes Er, or with erm, with further, further underwriting, he can er, subject to further underwriting, he can er, choose er, an additional He's chewing his , he's chewing He's woffling, he's woffling, he's woffling. So well, how do we do it? He can either erm, continue at the same level, but he pays more premiums. Yes, he can continue at that level of a hundred and ninety but he's obviously going to have to pay more, because he's only paid for it for ten years, or he can reduce it down to the original amount. Is that, that's not what I said is it? No it's not what you said. I'm not going to repeat what you said. But to allow you to get a bonus point, if he continues at the same level, will we require further annualising from him. For a hundred and ninety thousand? No No Who answered? These two. I didn't, I didn't. I thought the three of you did very well thank you, because you're absolutely right. You don't need any further underwriting to carry on at that level, but you can do. Two bonus points for ventriloquism and No, why not, why not. Come on yes, one for ventriloquism. O K. Er, where am I, Janet, have you got missed out somewhere along the line, but never mind. And you, oh, I see, I'm sorry, No, I'd noticed, it's Janet's turn now, but I think I missed you out, oh well, anyway, forget it. Erm, what happens if a client has, has established er, a Covermaster Plan for a selected period, and then for whatever reason, has a need to increase that cover. Maybe has another child, maybe a better lifestyle that they need to protect. What can they actually do? They do, they probably ask for erm, Well what,wh , can they actually increase this on their, their plan, increase their plan further? Table can you help? yes yes They can increase their plan further, what effect would that actually have to the plan though? To the selected period? Reduce the plan. To the selected period. Mm Ah, oh Christ now, He's going, woffle time, woffle time, are we ready? I'm sorry, I'm thinking about it, right. Erm, the selected period gets adjusted then. It does yes. No but I mean it becomes, it becomes shorter. It becomes shorter, yes, you're absolutely right. And this scenario, we've got a client who started with er, it looks like a hundred and fifty thousand pounds worth of life cover, after five years he had a further need, perhaps erm, a further child or, as I say, er, a lifestyle increase or whatever. So he wanted more life cover, but he obviously on his old plan couldn't sustain that to the same period of time, so he had it for a shorter period of time, the ten years, and when it dropped, he dropped down again. So what you actually do, is have a higher level of cover but for a shorter selected period, to fit in with your circumstances. O K. Good, I think we'll give you the marks for that one then John. Er, we must now be with Andrew. Question, you go to see Mr. and Mrs. Client tonight, and they need, let's say they need a hundred thousand pounds worth of life cover, and to fit their lifestyle, or their children, their family, they need it for eighteen years, they can't afford that. Would you give them a hundred thousand pounds worth of life cover for a shorter period, looking at them making up the difference perhaps later when they could afford it, or would you give them initially a reduced amount of life cover, say eighty thousand, for the eighteen years? What do you think would constitute best advice? , I think perhaps give them the, the shorter years. You're absolutely right, er, you're absolutely right, so where are you? One, two, three, yes. If this is what they need now, this is what you give them, er, on the understanding that perhaps they only have it for fifteen or ten years, but in fifteen or ten years' time, they might well be able to afford to extend it and pay more. So it makes sense doesn't it? You're doing er, the best for your clients. Good. Well done. Erm, right, oh, er, John, it must be, must be John, because er, must be David, yes. I think you left it too late Might even be John. David erm, He's this Welsh twit on the right Did he, did he No, no, he did get the right to I, I'd ask the It must be definitely a point off for racism here. Absolutely. I was just trying to help you really. you see, I was trying to help you. You were trying to help me put the names in place, without finishing it off. Yes, bit of nice creeping there, but it didn't work, John. O K, so David, at what stage can you claim under a terminal illness benefit, for a joint life, last survivor plan? At what stage can you claim for a terminal Illness benefit on a joint life, last survivor plan? You can't get it. You're absolutely right. Sue was desperate to tell you, but, absolutely desperate. Not available on a joint life, last survivor plan. You're absolutely right. Good. Erm, at what age must the selected period finish, Philip? It starts a minimum of ten years, but what age must it always finish by? Thirty five. Er, that's how long it can be, but it, as regards the client's age? It can be, it can run from ten to thirty five years, but it can't run past a client being a certain age? Team? Sixty five Sixty Fifty five It's one of those three anyway. Any, any, er, anybody else? Everybody put up your hands. Fifty five? Sixty five? Seventy five. Seventy five. Sixty Sixty Seventy one Seventy one Anybody anything else? Fifty eight and a half. O K, that's I'm sorry, that won't go, go for that one. Well done, seventy five. Bonus for Gerald. Taken at the end. Er, but I will give you a mark for saying it's ten to thirty five years because you're absolutely right, it can be established for thirty five years. Right, O K, erm, Gerald, policy reviews. Policy reviews. Why are they carried out? Erm, to make sure that the sum assured that the clients have got, or the funds can actually meet it, erm, Absolutely, absolutely, you're looking at the sum assured that the client has got, being supported by the fund. I E, you can take the charges out regularly and sustain the life cover. So who actually holds the reviews? The company or the client? Er, the company has to review The company. It's a company thing. You will actually hold a policy review with your client, I E, you're going to see them each year at least, but the policy reviews as regards the company are held to make sure there's enough growth in the client's funds to sustain all the charges. Excellent. So, er, Sue, what amount of growth are we looking at, traditionally or historically with Abbey to er, be able to do that? Er, eight point two five. Eight point two five. These questions are obviously getting far too easy, you're er, answering them so well. How many funds, Shirley, may the clients invest in initially, if they choose? Well we all Well we all put five initially, but we were told you could put it up to ten. Initially. Five Five, you're right. Initially, five. Once the policy's established, up to ten. O K. Kim, what fund would you recommend your clients put their money, in er, with a, with a Covermaster Plan? A managed fund. A managed fund, absolutely. Right, erm, what happens then, Philip, if the client says to you, and it's unlikely with Covermaster, but it's the same principle if you're talking of a savings plan or a pension, erm, I don't like the idea of my money being invested in a managed fund, I've been reading the financial press, and I'm very interested and excited at the thought of the Japanese market going up through the roof. So I would like to invest my Covermaster money in the Japanese funds. Can you do that? What would you do? What's the circumstances? How would you cover your back etcetera, etcetera, Tell him, you can only, you can only advise you to actually invest in the managed fund. But I'm your client saying I don't want that advice. If you choose, if you choose to invest in other funds, it's entirely up to you again. The choice is yours. Yes, right. But how are you going to cover your back if I? I'd certainly need to er, er, need to make a comment to that effect on the back binding at the end of the side Absolutely. Because how does Philip know that in five years' time, I'm not going to ring him up and say, hey you know when you recommended me to invest my money in the Japanese fund, well it's just gone through the bottom of the market. That was bad advice, etcetera, etcetera. So, if the clients want to invest in a fund, they can do. You can advise them whether they decide your advice that's fine, but what you must do is get them to s , you must write it on the plan your future document, the advice you gave, what plan you decided to do, and I would actually get him to initial it as well. O K? Good. So we now must be with John. John, when can the client change their fund allocation? So let's say this client has got his thirty pounds a month Covermaster, er, and he's decided that he wants to invest his Covermaster in a Japan fund. And he wants to change his allocation, what do we mean by that, and when can he do it? I don't know when he can do it. Think now. At any time. At any time. And what does it actually mean? I think it's,it's probably put into any chosen fund. Let's say he wants a managed fund. O K. Now what are we actually talking about by changing? Something being, the, the units in one fund at the market price, for the er, units in the other fund Oh you mean tip in those into, from the Japanese fund into the managed fund. Tipping them from one bucket to the next? Well Mm Change them from fund to fund. Change them from fund to fund, mm. A bit of confusion. Can you help out this table? Erm, the value, what you'd actually do, the value of the Japanese fund at the bid price,, would be allocated to the, at the bid price to the managed fund. It would be the amount of I would anticipate the managed fund. And what do we call that? We call it a bid to bid, or a switch fund Switching. Which was a wonderful explanation, and absolutely true. Do you know how much it costs, Gerald, to switch? Around eigh , nothing for the first one, and eighteen pounds after that one. No it's all eighteen actually. It's all eighteen. Brilliant answer, but he didn't answer the question I asked. Which was? I asked about changing. That's absolutely true about switching. What about changing? Future allocations. Future Future allocations, yes. So here we are in January, my premiums are going into the Japanese fund, I want next month's, February's to go into the managed, that's just changing, and it leaves these Japanese funds invested, here. If I want to switch I tip from one bucket to the other, we'll charge him eighteen pounds, and we're absolutely right, as Gerald says, we do it on a bid to bid basis. So changing into the future, you can do it at any time, what it actually means, it'll affects the next month's premiums, and switching, er, it's on a bid to bid basis, from one fund to the other, and we charge them eighteen pounds per occasion. Can I have a point please. What's this? Shall I give him a point? no, no We said no, I, I, I'm doing everything that table says at the moment, so no, but I'm going to give one to Shirley because she got most of the answer and then she came back with the right bit at the end as well. So, right, switching and changing. O K. Erm, let me just have a quick look through and see what I've asked those, definitely. Right, er, David, surrender value? end of side one. Would you like a bit of advice? No, no,, we knew, we knew. We said no, oh, I, I, I'm doing everything that table says at the moment, so no, but I'm going to give one to Shirley because she got most of the answer and then she came back with the right bit at the end as well. So, right, switching and changing. O K. Erm, let me just have a quick look through and see what I've asked first, definitely. Right, er, David, surrender value. A client wants to take, to cash in their plan, what do they get? What do they get? They get the bid price of the units in the fund, their allocation of the units in the fund. Yes. If they want to cash in their plan, any units they've got allocated to their fund, they get the bid price. Brilliant, O K. Erm,John, no. Janet, if somebody wants to take a partial surrender, I E, some of the cash from their fund, can they do it and how much will we charge them? Yes, they can. I was sort of telling you that bit. Yes, er, eleven pounds. Absolutely, right. Excellent. Erm, an investment bonus, Kim, is paid, how much is it, and when is it paid? Erm, an investment bonus is paid annually. That would be nice, but no. Ah, It would be nice. No Could your team help Kim out? The pay five, er, the amount if five percent, yes And it's paid after the client's seventy fifth birthday Brilliant Providing the plan has been going for ten years. Brilliant. Five percent bonus, should the client reach seventy five, and still be hail and hearty, and paying his premiums. Excellent. O K. Erm, let's go back to our fund and the list of charges. We've looked at the expense charge of one pound nineteen, the cost of running a policy taken out each month. We've established that if Shirley was our client, the cost of life cover would be taken out each month, erm, Sue can you give me another charge, that is levied? David's trying desperately to throw his voice again. It's a terrible scheme. I don't know. Oh yes, the initial management charge. The initial management charge, how much is that? How much? Mm Bid offer about five percent. Which is? five percent. Five percent bid offer . O K, well done, David, but no points for cheating. No points for cheating, but you're absolutely right. The difference between the buying price and the selling price, five percent. Which is the buying and which is the selling price, Ilias, of the units? The bid price, or the offer price? It would be the offer price, the price of the company. Yes And the bid price, the price that the er, client. Yes, yes. The bid price is what the company will give the client, and the offer price is which the client has to buy off the company. Bid to get rid, so bid is the selling price, is the easy way to remember it. O K, good. One, two, three. Erm, Andrew, another charge, you've got the initial management charge, one more? Erm, Team? Waiver of premiums, no we've done that. We've done it. We've got that. We've got the expenses charge. You're right, it is a charge. Er, setting up charge? Establishment of The, er adding charge. Annual management charge, taken out of the fund. How much is it? One percent. Did you hear him? Yes One percent, yes. Phew, given them their bonus, yes, well done. Right, so those are the charges Good, O K, let's see how we get so far, before we come to the last question. Ten, twenty, thirty, thirty eight. Ten, twenty, thirty, thirty two. Ten, twenty, thirty, thirty eight. Oh dear. Right, this is how the last question works. I'm going to give you, as a table one of the features of the plan, I'm going to ask you as a group, but only one of you needs to write it, to write every single thing you can think of relating to that set feature. Every bit of information. Then you've got a possible ten marks. You give me all the information. If the other two teams can pick up on a piece of information they missed out, they get a mark and you lose one of your ten. Simple really isn't it? Right, the three er, things we're going to look at are, you only need one per team, but I'll tell you what they are, waiver of premium, the insurability option,or index linking as it's sometimes called, and the paid up option. Right, who's in third place. Third place, we have Middlemarch. Which one would you like to choose as a team? Erm, I'd like W O P. Right, so off you go, write as much as you can about W O P. Right, Wall Street which one are you going to go for? What do you want? You pay for right of allocation of units. Erm,insurability option, the middle one. Insurability option. Which leaves you with The paid up option. The paid up option, right. O K, then two minutes. Write down everything you can think about it. The paid up option. They're fighting over here. It's alright. Could be crucial this, Wall Street and the Losers, they're neck and neck here you know. I think we should have a point for because we're well behaved. I think you've got a good point there, yes, I might er, it used to be, well you really are amazing, Are you sure there's actually ten things you can say about these? There probably aren't, no. I've only done one. For one more tip we can , it'll be a miracle. What have Wall Street got, Gerald? They've got waiver of premium. No they've got insurability option. Have they? Right, are we ready? We've got more than one,or something. Are we ready? Sorry, Nobody's answering. yes, yes. Well, let's have this team for answering then. I like polite teams. Oi, you lot. Sorry, yes. They're not polite, deduct a point. Right, what we're going to do now, then we will start with who's got what. O K. John, are you going to, John's going to read out all the features that his team have come up with. If you can think of anything that he's missed out, you stand a chance of winning a bonus point and he loses one of his ten points. Right. So off you go. Right, right fine. Waiver of allocations, I E, a reduction of units. O K, two, er,rep , units, what have I written? Sorry The number of units. The number of units is reduced by age and sex. Right, yes. O K. Er, not available on high-risk jobs. Right Not available on h , housewives, unless they can prove that they would have been in employment, would have been, erm, that they will have been Will be, good They would have been in employment, erm, only available up to the age of sixty, then cancelled Two's, Christine Erm, effective due, comes into effect after twenty eight weeks of illness or disability. It comes into effect after twenty eight weeks of an illness or a disability, yes. Er, available on joint life, first claim. yes Erm, on joint policies, the amount of units taken from the fund is the sum of the two lives, I E, up to seven percent. Yes, yes, got to. H I V not permitted. yes Erm, that's Not available on joint paragraph,right, that's what we've got then. It is, it is. That's what we've got. So it's one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine Right next table, anything that they've missed out? Yes, if they can't have the option in the leaver, then they get the extra allocation of units. He likes this allocation of units. Can be, yes, why not, why not, yes, a bonus. Anything from this table. Yes, the benefit is only payable up to the age of sixty. We had that, I said that. He said that. Are you sure? yes It is available to housewives. He said that, you're just, he, he, he said that it's available to housewives but only if they erm, will be going back to work prior to the claim, but you must be employed prior to the claim. Yes, I didn't hear him saying that they waive the payments from you when, I didn't know if you were meant to? I didn't say, he didn't say anything about er, Abbey No, no Waiving the premiums, no. So basic payments , with er, well I suppose,no, no, I won't They said, they said, they only deduct six marks because they're only payable up to sixty? We did Did you say death or ? You don't remember? No we didn't say that. Oh, you just lost two marks worth then, payable up to the end of the term or er, on death. O K, well done, so we've had two bonuses, so that must give you eight marks which makes you forty one. So if you find lots of things to say about the others, you're still in with a chance here. Right then Wall Street, what, what is er? Insurability option, Yes Who's going to tell us about it? So you do it after five years. Every five years, yes. Then if it's not going to be taken up on one of those five years, you have to leave that payment, you lose it. If you don't use it you lose it. You lose it, and you've got the option to take out a new plan after the five years. A new plan To make up, to make up life cover, life cover as required. To make up life cover, yes. Erm, it's valid up until the age of sixty five. yes No further medical evidence is normally required. yes And also you have the option to increase on special events I E, divorce, adoption, marriage, or on mortgages. Right, O K. Good. I couldn't think of any more. Anything? Well they haven't actually said what it is. tell me then? alo Actually you have missed out one very crucial point. The opportunity to increase No he did say you could increase the sum assured He did say that. H I V people can't have it. H I V people can't have it. Anyone? And your premiums in line with erm, increase in inflation, Which is measured by? The Retail Price Index. I thought he said that once. Or a proportion of it Hm You can take a proportion of it, you don't need the five percent. So if you take a proportion, then what happens? You have to have the same proportion next time. Right, if you, he said if you don't take it you lose it, which is absolutely right. But if you take a proportion of it, you're only offered that proportion again. I think that's it. Yes? Erm, there's something about additional insurability. Now, you actually answered about additional insurability, I didn't ask you, it sounds the same, in fact it's totally different, because as you say, the option to take out more life cover on birth, marriage, and adoption, To a maximum of twenty five thousand To a maximum of twenty five thousand, yes Or mortgage Forget mortgages, we're talking Covermaster, yes, it's nothing to do with mortgages. O K. So I just wanted to clear that, twenty five thousand Sorry, Yes, or, or some percentage of it. yes, it's a maximum of twenty five thousand. Yes, or twenty five percent of the original sum assured. There is something in that actually charging a percent it gives you an option that you could do something which would mean that the option wasn't cancelled. Erm, and it was going on about it was something to the sum insurance? I don't, I forget what it was now. Erm, well, I'm not sure, but if you find it erm, ask me, because I can't relate to it. Yes, I think it was relevant to computers, yes, erm, yes. But I'll just pick up, if the original sum assured was a hundred thousand, and you need, and you took the additional insurability option, you could obviously have twenty five thousand with is a quarter, and that's the maximum you can have anyway. If it was a hundred and fifty thousand you could still only have twenty five thousand. But if you'd, if the original sum assured was only sixty thousand, you could only have a quarter, so you could only have fifteen thousand pounds maximum. Yes, O K. Good, so how many bonuses. One, two,th , no, no, sorry, but di , who did waiver of premium? You did, didn't you, so No, no, no, we didn't, Who did waiver, you did, right, O K. So, one, two, three bonuses off, because you, there was one from before. So that gives you seven, which brings you up to thirty nine, forty six, taking into account that one. One, knock these off, otherwise I shall confuse them. Forty six. Right, waiver of premium. No We've done that We've done that. No we're not, paid up option. Thank you very much. Sorry about that. Paid up option, for the Losers. O K, erm, premiums are stopped for er, if you can't afford to carry on paying them, the premiums are stopped, and your fund is continued up until the p , the point where the charges exhaust the funds, providing it's over a thousand pounds. If it's under a thousand pounds, you can't get the money back through funding, and the policy is void. Mhm Erm, if it's paid up you can start paying again at some point in the future, but you have to pay an extra one-off charge, to do it, I think. At some point in the future? Up until the funds are exhausted. Yes, before the funds are ex , exhausted. Yes, yes, that's right, that's absolutely correct, Erm, you can't choose to make it paid up, it has to be paid up because the premiums aren't being paid. Right, good, O K. So, you've got a client who for whatever reason, is, is unable to er, afford the premiums, and providing they've got a thousand pounds in the fund, they can elect to the, the plan made paid up, whereby the life cover is sustained by the fund and all the other charges, and it's sustained until the fund runs dry. Yes Anybody anything to add to that? I think, the only thing I could add is that you've got twelve months in which to restart the payments. It's a twelve month period. I didn't know that. O K, erm, and you do have to actually pay back the premiums other people would stop and start them at random. So if after five months you started paying it again, you've got to pay the previous four months' premiums. O K, so, How many's that? Eight. No, no, we haven't Nobody else got any more points. What do you, what do reckon, do you think they've got a good case for their ten points? Five, five. It wasn't explained properly. Five, it wasn't explained properly. We can find lots of reasons for not giving them ten points, couldn't we really, if we really worked at it. You didn't say we couldn't, we didn't say the level of cover, I mean they've been a rabble all afternoon anyway, haven't they? Yes? They've said things that weren't true to say, couldn't they, I mean, they thought it too simple to even say. Absolutely, just to make more points, they made a few things up,ex , absolutely. They can still have their ten points, though. Hooray. So, well done the Losers, at great expense, we have a prize for you. Oh, lovely. Well, Mm, this is nice, The bonuses well, it might, it might actually work. No it doesn't. I hope it doesn't change it, but they should do. Right. O K, erm, hopefully we've had a bit of fun, but at the same time, we go , we went through all the technical information. Er, tomorrow you will have an exam on Covermaster, it's not going to be the type of exam that's going to be, what's the minimum premium?, it's going to be more looking at potential clients, and what they're going to want from the plan. So you're going to be looking at things like additional insurability option, waiver of premium, index linking and paid up option. Those are the features that you're going to need to know, and how they relate to your clients. More so, that it's a twenty pounds minimum premium, because they're going to ask you to apply some of that knowledge through the questions. But I really don't think it will be a problem. If we could have erm, a coffee break now until ten past three, and then we'll enter the last phase on the, on the Covermaster, one of the last areas which is features to benefits. Any questions for me before we finish? Right, quarter of an hour coffee break then please. Get the notes. Change the name to the Winners now, Yes. Yes. At the bottom of the street Which house? Mine and hers taxi, Bluebird taxis. to the bottom of us Hiya, hiya Shh Hello Colin one of the musketeers here Candice, aha, a few minutes, right, cheers Colin, tarrah . Why we watching that tape over there? Oh it's where? Private taxis isn't it? One of the musketeers. You'll get it By the way I've got me What have you been saying about me Jimmy? Jimmy by the way I haven't said nothing. she's switched tapes say by the way Jim you could have fixed that boiler take everyone off the pipes that's it, just send our love, oh no no, put the stuff back in the box That's off yours I've put the stuff back in the box me console, and me old radio can't throw anything out on a stormy night Is that not my bulb? ma Mum er everything got there, it's gotta be sent in there, it's gotta be sent back. Aha Where's the wiring harness? The old one? Is it in the Where's the box? when Saturday? Tomorrow night. Oh tomorrow, what time? Yeah tomorrow six till seven cos I couldn't wait. Oh I'm on till seven, will you be awake when you get to the bus stop then? Half one. Eh? He might take us on er eh, he might take us up Newcastle . Hey, fancy dad watching . Get lost. . No. How are you mam? Eh? Oh stop it Sharon. No I think we've got a good . It gets not too much gets not too much. Well maybe as me dad was saying, conservatives erm sh should be and everything but They didn't they didn't. they didn't they you know They didn't. they got to see that. Oh. Dad dad was years ago Aha aha . when it was foreseen that what was gonna happen. There was even a sketch in the papers about Hiya . all the land would be you know, heartland and things like that. Labour always get in Shields though anyways don't they. Mm. It's very always has . I'm confusing 'em I don't know who I'm I don't think I'm gonna vote at all. As they say, when in doubt do nowt. You should vote. Every One person's saying Labour and the other one's saying Tory. You make your own mind up pet nobody does it for you . Everybody's got their opinions love we've got . You've got to you've got to go your what you think You vote for who you want . Let's face it. It doesn't matter who you vote for, you could be wrong. Yes. Aye. But it doesn't matter which government gets in, they're gonna do something wrong. They're all like that. It doesn't matter which government gets in, they're all gonna make mistakes. . Mm. The next the politicians. Well I suppose they've they've got to be you know . They're stopping trade. Wheyey. I'll tell you what, there's been no good in the other party's That's that's all they've done. they haven't said what exactly what they're gonna do. big parties. That's all they're thinking on, all just slagging each other off really aren't they. Yes. They always do and they always will do. . Kinnock's photograph in front of the Sun this morning Aha. Big headlines saying if Labour get in today will the last person out of Britain please put the lights out. Something like that . . If Labour get in what? Kinnock on the front of the paper this morning, the Sun,his head was inside the light bulb. It said, if Labour get in to the government today, will the last person who leaves Britain please put the light out . . Er what you having, cheese? Aha. Well I've got me chocolate. . they're good you know, are you not getting any? John you know those novelties, M and Ms? Any of them in the warehouse or anywhere? I sent them back mother. You sent them back. . Ah there we are. . Aha. . Mind I think er M and Ms is rubbishy. quarter past. I had them things you know, Kinder Eggs. Have you had them new bars they've made? Oh they're lovely. coming in. . Poor little . Did that job I give you this morning . Aye. What a bloody shame, if I had known I would have sent somebody else. . Well he took the tomato empty tomato boxes out for us . Poor little . . . still be doing it at Christchurch's till What time will they be in? . When will they know who's won. What time will they know who's won. Oh about Early morning at least. Early morning. They'll be all night counting to get the results in from all the . It's exciting really, to watch isn't it Pat? I bought an extra packet of tabs watch the You do. . I'm always saying, right I'm going to bed now and you say you know well we'll wait till the next one then, we'll wait you know and it's it's it is really. I'm worse than . But if it was gonna be a hung parliament you won't even know this time tomorrow. No if it's gonna be hung. What's that mean. It's not decisive. So would you have to vote again like? There would be another election. Depends. Depends? Yeah. That's how Harold Wilson got in wasn't it. There probably would be another election unless Mm. erm the Labour party decided to go for proportional representation. If they did that, the Liberal Democrats would probably go along with. Aye. I think one of the things is that Mrs Thatcher's not there any more.. Well if Labour don't get in don't get in this time, the only person they can blame is their leader. He hasn't come out very well . . Talk a bit louder please. Pardon? Talk a bit louder. . . Ooh me nose is itchy. They'll use that one in the Oxford dictionary . . Announcement, Mr to the back door please, Mr thank you. . . Mr sexy man Tom Cruise Staff announcement, Mr , contact the wines and spirits please, Mr . Took us all me time to get out of bed at nine o'clock. .Gary that'll be for you. Hello. No I'm just coming down, aye. Thanks a lot. Who was it for? Eh? Who was it for, you? You. Eh? Me? . . Well talk then. You all keep talking about us bringing it in and you're not even talking. About what? I dunno. You keep saying bring it in, bring it in, and I've brought it in, you're not talking now. talk about. my house last night.. Were they playing last night like? Yeah.. You what? They use that in the Oxford dictionary you know. What a shite. Mhm. Me arm's killing us. Your arm? It's not like sore, it's when I move it it's Mm. like pulling at the top. . Ah. ? Eh? ? Yeah.. Yes.. . Margaret? One eighty three. How much are they anywhere else? One eighty two. One eighty two. They put them up to one eight six and then they brought them Down. down. It's outside the University. There's just a survey I've just got to tape general conversation. Me and me mam were singing it the other night. I think we're auditioning for summat when they listen to this. Should we ask them . Aye. . If it's like this on Saturday I'll be at the town. Aye. . Mhm. Oh I like going to town. really busy the shop. Well it seemed it the bairn's been in. Dad's been busy. . Aye so I hear. In here? Aha. I see I thought it was in North Shields. He was but he's I don't know whether he's back just for today or what? I thought it was only ten past twelve. ten past twelve on my watch . and away. Tell me about it. . Is Pauline off all week? She was in last night. Was she? . she got Monday and Tuesday off. I didn't see her mind. Did you not? She was five till eight. although I never see her on Wednesday night . definitely . When she was on holiday last week, she come in the shop on er the Thursday or the Friday, she couldn't speak then. . Well it must have went away Aha. must have got alright and then it's come back . .. Mm? I say they've finished . And then they puts put gates and big lights up No and they're doing all sorts.. .. What time you finish . Are yous getting Half four. . . Not doors. What you gonna do? Windows. Windows? Your not. Eileen said get those . Aye but it won't be erm plastic doors . It's not gonna be the plastic doors. . windows. If the surrounds of the doors are rotten they're gonna Aye. see to all of that. Metro line . ?the Metro. The whole estate needs designed. it's not the same estate is it? Well I I don't know I haven't lived there as long as you. I hated it when I first moved on it. People said it used to be lovely . Couldn't say nowt nice in it. Oh no. No. Just had it I I've been gonna move and move since I went on to it but it was so handy for J that's it Erm I thought oh well I'll I'll stick it out but Erm It's not your cup of tea like it's just No. . I don't know who designed it but You cannae beat houses that's got front gardens and back gardens back to back. You can't. We'd a lovely garden. I mean our back door should really Ridiculous. ...... Oh well I changed my window you know. Did you Oh aye. Couldn't put up We put a big picture window in, couldn't stand them. Oh it's nice that. I think going on to sleep. I know, he's got me tired. last night... So could I. It was I was eight o'clock last night you know. . milkman that comes round our place, not the Co-op one, the other one. There's two of them on. Oh aye aye. Dear me they're a disgrace. Five o'clock every morning. Five.? Oh it'll be after the meal's over tonight when we Aye aye . Won't be till ten, always are. Ah . Election night. . They say Dan 's been round. He has . Aye voting for like. Bit late in the day if you don't know now. I thought I'd just close me eyes and put a cross. Hope for the best. . That's a daft was of voting. . I don't know I think they're been getting the majority they generally get. The last one they didn't The last one I don't think they did. They didn't. Now the last one they didn't they didn't get in was a majority . Yes. This time I don't know what Aye I think I'm just gonna put . I think it's anybody's guess.. Well what's Conservative's done for you. What's Labour done for you? Nothing. Eh? . Oh so you all No. . Well nobody's . . my eyes is heavy with watching you. Aye watching you. Oh. . No they put me off to sleep. Eh? . . I've still got it. . No I don't wear it much now. I never wear it. I don't like it. Oh. I don't like it. Just gone off it eh? tomorrow morning. like . ah . just wants general conversation. Who wants this. It's Oxford University, for a dictionary or something. . So they can look back at nineteen ninety two and see what language we uses. will they pay for it. Twenty five pound voucher. What? Will I get paid for it? No. You'd be talking anyways wouldn't you so I'm just taping you talking. . You never talk about anything interesting anyway so I'm not paying you for it. No is it. No. . That's alright. . . Your voice is on it. . His voice is on it? It is now . that's his speech . . Aye . . It was lying here when we come over earlier on. lying about. . . . . Are you alright? Fine. How you doing? Terrible. Why? . What you after? Nothing. . She's taping you man. Turn it off. No I've nearly finished a side of a tape. You've had that on me all day? No no not all day, just general conversation. I knew you had to have something. It's nearly finished, I wanna finish this side. Can I swear can I? Yeah. I've had it in the . You had it where? The bottom of a our bottom pub. That is great. Eh? . Nice.. Is he? Aha. Ah. for the money one night Oh that'll be nice They've got a lovely surprise at the wedding came to a a hotel you know Staff announcement Mrs contact Mr please, Mrs . Announcement, Mr contact the Wines Mr , thank you. . Why should I. Eh? yeah, come on let's hear it. . Rowntree's Jelly I mean domestics. . They had to go and pick bags of stuff up . I think she's I think she I said Are you gonna vote Conservative like, just cos you've got a canny job. I says, and your house. and she looked at me she, what do you mean, I says, you know. I says, you vote what you want I says, I says erm,you're sitting pretty just now. She were like I thought, aye I wonder how you'd get by if you didn't have a job. I mean it's not as if mortgages and that that erm bed and breakfast and different things. all had good jobs. Aye . Especially if you're used to having the money and all like . They are. just been finished off the rigs. Aye there's a lot gonna be finished off the rigs. Oh well all that got paid off because of erm giving the yankees the contract or something. The the contract. He's got his name down like so he might be lucky and get a phone call cos he Well what happens if they don't and Thirty pound social security. Me Aunty Linda's not working either, like she didn't need the money but I mean he was on the dole for years me Uncle Ron. Mm. He was like, he was on the dole for years man, he was lucky to get that but I mean he used to. Aye. So it was his last trip and he's waiting to hear something now so Well that's one t one thing about us,never ever made good wages. I mean he worked hard, he worked he worked six nights a week. He used to work twelve hour twelve, thirteen hour shift he worked. And his wages weren't all that good and he worked kids. And he never got good wages . . Just didn't get good money. Seems to me I was Jobs are hard, the weren't like secure jobs. You got a few months and then you were paid off you were back on the dole . I remember . I mean many a time we had mm. oh fine you know,. As I was saying to me mam like, all these John Major and that, they're all going on about what they're gonna do. But they've all got big houses and loads of money. They don't know what it's like er being on the dole . I know they don't have to go and say, ee can I afford that this week or can I Aye. afford that. It's alright for them to say we're gonna do this and do that, but they get everything easy don't they. I mean they all say they understand what it's like being on the dole and that, but they don't. Of course they don't. Nobody knows. Nobody knows. If anybody tells you .. No. I mean did you see that them lads that were round that discussion. And this lad got up and he says, I get thirty one pound social security. He says I have to pay me rent, he says me rent's three pound right, he says I have to pay me poll tax, I have to pay me electric, me gas. He says, feed meself all out of that thirty two poun He says, could yous manage on that? And he had a place of his own, a flat, he was on his own. How how would how would what would you have out of thirty two pound. I'd love to see them manage on it for a year I mean you couldn't. They couldn't could they. And then that one conservative who did go and do it, he swapped places with people who were on the dole, and he went and lived up in Newcastle. Never heard of him after that did you I mean? Well they swapped places didn't they. Aye you never heard of him after that. So who do you think'll get in? Well I think it's hard to say. Well I think Labour'll get in like. Do you? Well I . Cos somebody was saying something about the la the last time they got in, it all went It's er very very poor . You see there's been that there's been that many flung out of jobs Sharon, there's been that many people put out of jobs, there's been that many people bought their houses and been put out on the streets they've got no homes you know . It's about time like s somebody else had a go at it because Aye. Aha. Labour or Conservative That's why me mum and dad voted Liberal Democrat this time, I mean they never vote for them . There'll be a lot like that. There'll be a lot. And me mam says, oh just for a change to give someone else a chance. you swing the whole it could just swing. Paddy Ashdown. I like him, I was watching him on the telly the other day, I think he seemed nice. There's not many people like Neil Kinnock like. Well I think John Major's nice. Did you see Spitting Image ? Aye Ee Ee it was great. Why was he grey? Me and me mam couldn't understand it Yes You c he's grey because it's all to do you turn grey. That's what he was grey for. Oh. Because he's grey because he knows he's losing, he's gonna lose his job. Well they have published that he's gonna lose Aye. his job, they mightn't. Ah. . Might come up trumps. on the night but nobody do on. It's the politics didn't work gotta mention politics, it's just to get away from politics. Who was this? put a do on tonight. We were laughing at the Sun this morning, had a picture of Neil Kinnock's head in the light bulb and it said, could the last person out of Britain please turn the light off after them. You see and another thing what they're saying is thirty year ago when Labour was in, there were strikes and everything Aye was saying that. I mean grave grave diggers went on strike, hospitals went on strike, couldn't bury your dead. Stuff wasted in the streets, rubbish and all that and there was rats and everything. Er you know but you see, conservative won the election and because what they did was, if you went on strike they they paid you off, you got sacked and you just didn't get any money . And so people had no other option but to go out to work. Even if you had any grievance against your employee, it didn't stand. Mm. And and employers put an end to people. They took an end because they took them in a scheme where the kids actually got jobs what you've done. Now then that after about six weeks or eight weeks, if you've got a kid you can have them . Oh aye I don't believe in the Y T Ss and that like . job. No. So that's doing away with a person's er wage isn't it. I think there's a few times I was gonna pack in cos I used to do the same amount of work as everyone else and I got paid That's right and you were only getting aha not even half what they were getting And the government pays them that. So they really were getting you for nothing. Oh aye. So they've made cheap labour. They've made er and you know what they did, they've privatized all the jobs. They school cleaners and hospital cleaners Then they brought this poll tax didn't they? Aha. The poll tax has done them through. I was gonna say, if they lose it's I think a lot of it'll be through the poll tax. Aha. Poll tax and people getting flung out of houses. That's not him is it? I think she's got a new husband now. Not him. That's that little fella. Aye I think he's her new husband. I thought that was the mate who was going out with the blonde you know. Wh is that not . I've got I'm on to tape four. And she's coming tomorrow morning. . twenty. . . Me tapes tomorrow morning . work Aye but she says you only you can just do as many as you want she says, you'll not use the twenty. Aha. She said you probably won't even get th through the first ten. And then will she And then will she erm Eh? She says the other ones they're all full of politics. The ones I've taped today. Aye but you wouldn't be able to would you? Probably wouldn't like it like mm. Mm. So she's coming in the morning for it? Yeah. And I get me twenty five pound Marks's voucher. Oh yeah. Not bad that. It's not no. . . . . . . What for? . That's . It's gonna be . . Ah. . You know what I don't know how many times I've stripped that down. Aye I know. .. I know I've seen. I . He doesn't take any notice now.. And look at his watch, his watch is in a right state. do that. how did you know. and done it. . You never . When I phoned our Rachel's I was hollering, I always do that. It's just cos the numbers . Vivienne Vivienne does it. Does she. and she'll say, Mam e it's me . Cos our Rachel's number starts with . Is that at ten thirty. And y just cos I'm used like used to phoning I just . . . get the telly page. ... Nine o'clock. . Oh . already, God almighty.. . . . . microphone . What's your microphone? One of them little clippy ones. What do you use that for? I got a woman give us it, she's doing a survey for erm Oxford University. She asked us if I would tape conversations . She's give us twenty tapes and I'm only tape five and she's coming for 'em tomorrow. left it running all the time. I took it to the pub the other night, but you can't hear nowt except pool balls crashing. And the jukebox on. Oh. And me and me mam we singing in it the other night, just to use up the tape. telly on it'll pick the telly up . Aye it does. I got some good ones of when Col was talking the other night didn't I ? I was Yeah I was listening to all his howling. What was he saying it was just the was talking not what he was saying. It was the way he asked get a cloth, that's what he was saying, I was howling . Aye aye aye. . he's awful isn't he Aye. I thought it wouldn't last. Has he seen . She's she's never been away. She's been . Mm. She mentioned tonight she's been at work every day mind you. So has he still not been down? She won't go back down... Oh I didn't know that was meant to be him. . Did I tell you . No.. Mhm. Aye. . . Oh yeah there's all . Oh my god . Pack them in now. Right, see you later. Tara Alan. .. Where's he ? that er B and Q had erm gardening centre . Forty nine pound. Mm. 's got them in they're ninety nine pound. Erm She was saying er cos she went . And er .? Eh? Do they do them for free? . They've been there before. round here didn't we. Aye. How old is John now? . What's a hung parliament again? . What's a hung parliament. It means that got a majority. . Oh have they got to have so many past each other? got and twenty six. Why? Three hundred and twenty six. If they get three hundred and twenty six, they've won. What do you know what he's talking about? three hundred and twenty six gives them an overall majority Well what happens It's not gonna be a a hung parliament. What happens if if Labour had got one more vote than Conservative. No it's got What are you saying? What a hung parliament is? We're asking him what a What's a hung parliament ? Three hundred and twenty six. No I'm saying the majority. Don't shout I'm only here. No if if if if a party's got a three hundred and twenty six A hung parlian A hung parliament To get into parliament in the house of commons you've got to have a thirty percent majority. What's that mean? To be a full parliament. But I still don't know what that means. Three hundred and twenty six votes. You've got to have a thirty percent I'm not on about seats. You've got to have a thirty percent majority. Well what's that mean? Thirty percent more than the other party? If Labour won the morrow and they only had twenty five percent majority it would be a hung parliament. But if they had twenty five percent it would gentlemen of the Conservative party to say, Listen, you've got twenty five percent, go on, run the country. And it would be. There'll not be a hung not be hung parliament . What do you mean twenty five percent majority. You've got to have a thirty percent majority. Three hundred and twenty six Oh. They've got to have three hundred and twenty six seats. doesn't want to talk to us. Cos he's talking stupid. They've got to have three hundred and twenty six seats. . They've got to have three hundred and twenty six seats to get in. It's thirty percent majority I've just told you. does the Queen vote? No the Queen's speech. But who did she ask for? ask for anybody. But who would she like for Labour The only people who'll get the Conservative parties back in is the snobby people who work at Oxford and that. They get right on my wick. And I can see your tape moving so that's why I said it. Well I'm finishing me tape she's coming for it in the morning . That's why I said it cos I could see a tape moving . voting Conservative like. just been on where they've had unemployment and loss of jobs and the Tory's held it. Where? Basildon. Well you're talking about South dad. You're talking about South. It was a Conservative There you are dad. After four results You're talking about South. Conservatives three, Labour one. Liberal Democrats non. That's how many places they've got Aye but they're they're starting off on the South that's what you've got to think. No there's a there was a Tory Tory held one wh which was very very close in the last election, Tory held it. What did I say now, Tories'll be seventeen short. Labour'll be nineteen short. At the end of the selections. Well that's what I predicted. There's loads of people I know sitting up to watch this. Margaret at work and she's an old woman and she says it's dead exciting. How old is she? . Erm. No she's about sixty I think. But but but Basildon John, loads of unemployment dad. A hundred and seven. You said Oxford. Conservative See Vivian voted Conservative That's what it is, it's Conservative all down South. The whole of Scotland The whole of the North East of England'll be Labour won't it. Darren's mam was saying Vivian's only voted Conservative cos she's sitting nice, she said they've both got nice jobs and a nice big house and that. Oh . I suppose they would work out nice if you are doing good really wouldn't it? get loads down . So what time will they have the results in? Oh. By tomorrow morning? When I get up, six o'clock. Will it? Oh aye usually. So if I put the teletext on even if they haven't telly on, and it'll tell you. Someone says about one or two o'clock. watch this till about I normally watch this till about two . All night. Big Nicky is watching it all night. Big Nicky? Aye . Does he. I usually watch it about two or three o'clock in the morning . Is he interested in politics and that like ? stupid he does things like that. He'll have a bet on it or something. . He will he'll have a bet on at the bookies. . Is he betting for the bookies ? And he'll be panicking. He'll be sitting panicking . Why? Cos he will. Oh I know why John Major was grey. . Cos he was losing. That's what it was meant to mean. Oh was it? Aye. . Last night. Darren's mam and dad were watching it, they were laughing. . Jeff's been alright hasn't he? Oh For the first time in about three weeks. Sa s He's been to the psychiatrist you know.. Oh that's They're going. Two of them, sitting talking to him. They go and off it with the doctor. . He's o What was he on he was drinking, what a bottle and a half of vodka and about fifteen pints of cider a day. . He went to the doctor's he says, listen if you drink another drink you'll be dead in six month. Mhm. Full stop, there's forty milligrams of valium. Mhm. You've gotta take that a day. They reckon the doctor should've says to him He shouldn't have said that, full stop, you should never say that to an alcoholic. They reckon he should've said cut it down to about two or three, four pints a day, there's fifteen milligrams of valium. Fifteen so you're talking treble. He was taking treble the amount of valium and drinking and all . What did he do John? Oh he was great tonight he was back to his normal self tonight. Aye I saw him down the pub . He's had about three pints but that's what they've told him to take. The psychiatrist has told him to take three pints of lager. . Jeff went to the psychiatrist and they start babbling on saying about the forty milligrams of valium he's taking. They says the doctor's given you that to take you off the alcohol. They says, right, he says, I've got a I've got a problem with alcohol and he's given us the valium to get us off the alcohol. He says, right six months time I'm totally off the alcohol, he says, what's gonna get us off the valium? Cos that that does you up Ah. that stuff. How many people get addicted to that? Oh aye. He says, right I'm gonna go off the alcohol, I'll be totally teetotal but I'll be taking valium, he says it's just like a vicious circle, what am I gonna do after the valium. What you gonna give us to take us off that? And they told him they told him he shouldn't even be on that. So what have they given him? The doctor didn't even say six month. He sh he did but he didn't. His mam's been on the phone . Where to? The doctor. The doctor's? Aye the doctor. And the doctor hadn't said six months? He did. He did he said that which he shouldn't have done. He says if you have another drink if you keep on drinking, you'll be dead in six month. Oh. And is he saying he didn't say that ? That was to scare him. He says if he doesn't stop drinking he'll be dead in five year. So I said that so he would stop thinking. Aha. But you don't do that. No with a proper alcoholic. He's sound as a pound isn't he like, he's only had a couple of pints. first time you've been able to talk to him properly. So is he still on valium? Aye but he's on next to nowt compared to what he was. What's he drinking, lager? Owt. Doesn't make any difference just so long as it's equivalent to two pints of lager. has he admitted he's an alcoholic John? Aye. Is he. I think it's between two and four pints of lager he's allowed to have a night as long as he doesn't touch spirits. Aye. But me and Jimmy was standing say like me and Jimmy have what seven or eight pints, a night. . When I go out, aye, seven or eight pints. Oh. Jeff can only have three or four. So we says to him, why didn't he get a half of lager a h a bottle of Kaliber which is a half of lager non-alcohol, and put it in a pint glass. Aha. So he can have like four pints but it'll be exactly the same as us having eight. Aye. Know what I mean. . . what you got that on for. Cos I've got to finish it for the morning. . Me last tape. So does he have Kaliber? I'm not telling. I don't like the talking, it's like the war. Eh? I don't like the talking it's like it when the Be talking to and Billy. . Talking to and Billy. I haven't seen them for years. From school like. No shields. I've never heard of them. . . Do you know him? glasses? No. That's the boxer trainer who you're on about. From Street all the second hand shops. Great big double glazed glass . . That's not him who I'm on about. he's one of the top notches of Shields. So's him mate,. Have you heard of ? Who? . Have you heard of him dad? dad? What? Have you heard of ? . Who? . Where from? at the end of the . Aye he used to be the His brother used to be his brother and all. He's o he's one of the top notches of Shields him like. You wouldn't believe it but he is. He's a small dark lad. . Nothing to look at honest to god. man. . His brother's with Oscar's er wife. His brother's You know his brother was living up at erm Those flats. Aye er Oscar . . Oh . that's 's brother. 's brother. Oh I know He is the hard I would put me money on this coffee table now to say he's the hardest man in Shields. . . He is. . A very hard bloke. Aye . Ah but I'm saying he is the hard one of the hardest blokes in Shields . I've been talking to ,, and Billy . No Billy , no not the one you're thinking of. Oh aye . He's a waster him, Billy . . Put your money on he's one of the top in fact I would say he's the hardest bloke in Shields him. I've never heard of him. And he looks nothing. His second name's and he's wife's name . And that's the truth. H No but that's his nickname, that's what people call him,. But his second name's and his wife's second name used to be . And when they got married it was and in the paper and that's the truth that. And that's the truth. Mr and Mrs . . No that's the truth, not a word of a lie. , . . aye. I know used to work in the curry shop . did he used to . Is he hard like? Is he hard dad?? . Is he? Oh aye. you wouldn't think so looking at him. Small? No he's not small but he just doesn't look the type that would fight. is small as owt. No Aye and he's like a Baldy little dark bloke and you would look at him half caste. You look at him and you think 's a half caste look at . . Take anyone. . That's the truth. .. Well you shouldn't have it on. I don't know how anyone could sit and listen to tapes. You what ? Aye. She's picking them up tomorrow morning isn't she. You should've been a lot through more than five. I've had it on all the time haven't I mam? you haven't. John there's two sides. Forty five minutes each. She was on about general conversation, you should have it on the whole time. Well you all keep telling me to turn it off. But you haven't though. Don't say it's through me. Cos you haven't turned it off. That's a great big spot on the side of your face and I'm happy. I'm glad. Why? Cos I'm glad you've got a big spot on the side of your face . Where man? There, right there. There? No down. There. It's massive. You cannae pick it cos it's inside. So. What you do that for? Dot to dot. Mam he's horrible. What you glad for? I'm glad you've got a spot. Why? Cos. I've got loads of spots. I know but that one's massive. So . . . sleep. Spots don't bother me. It's looks like an Indian woman asleep on a pillow. spots lying next to us. Spots don't bother me. They do like They don't. They really bother you. So do your blotches. Me blotches don't bother me. They do. You're lying. . They do cos you're always looking and saying Ee there's a spot. I don't get many spots. But you have you've got a great massive one on the side of your Well shut up man. You've got them on your chin. I'm not cared I'm not a lass, I don't have to make-up on them. At least I can cover mine. I don't have to cover mine. You've got to cover yours to look alright. So. I wouldn't bother, you'll never cover that. Polyfilla and concrete wouldn't cover that spot. Darren's got his driving lesson tomorrow night. Aye. six till seven. . . Well I'm not down are they? Now tell me tell me about ? Right you know they're at export price list? Yes. Yeah, er Steven er Steve their er designer These were the people I wrote to the other day ? That's right, Roy and Jerry . Steve works in the engineering office and has taken over some of the er you know purchasing function as well, like enquiries and stuff. Yeah. He's just been on to Maureen, got a couple of orders bearings and an Anglia contact. I explained to him about what we've done up to date and the fact that we've yet to sort the account out properly. Yeah. Er and what he's saying is, well can I have a price for these items? So I said, well I I explained, now look, you were on an export price list now, one of the things Jerry didn't like but we've got to look at is more comparable with U K. Yeah. Erm so what I've done is said, Are these for use in U K or export? and these are for use in the U K. Right so I've said well we'll probably give you a price relating to that then. ball bearings and and what was the other one? And an Anglia contact bearing as well. . Yeah. Right er Now you know, to be to be honest I was talking about it, I couldn't tell you what the average percent is from last year. Yeah. Er in fa I don't know Could I I could from those statistics couldn't I tho Or or haven't we sold anything to this year? Erm I'm not sure whether we have or not. Won't it be on this lot? Er I'm not sure actually whether they would appear on them or not, I haven't seen the new statistics so I don't know. Wh who no no no these are old statistics, these are your Mine? No they won't be on because they're export. No they're not on January's. Oh because they count as export? That's right. Although they're at home. Ye they've only just been put onto a home account. You think you've got problems. Yeah. Right. So now I can't tell you but I Right. know I know it'll be say thirtyish percent. Yeah as Right. opposed to the forty in the U K so we've got to get it up a bit. Erm but I've just thought, you know, get this away, let him get you know, buy them, go in at say forty percent as an O E margin What would I mean if it wasn't , if it was if it was erm think of another U K customer . A similar sized U K customer Yes. Well We'd be looking at making forty percent margin. Between thirty five, forty percent margin. Well you better price them accordingly. Right okay. It's just that and then we have got to get this sorted out long Yeah. term obviously. Yeah. So Well i apart from anything else, it's stating our position Sure. isn't it? Yeah. Now where erm Yeah I mean does that You see . does that compare them with the customers? U K customers ? I haven't even looked at yet. Oh on those, no we charge them a lot more. The ones we c we manage to sell at about fifty, fifty five percent margin. Right. Because although that's three o'clock. It's not three o'clock is it? Oh it is. It's three o'clock. It's two minutes to. Right okay. Tape number three in conversation with Mr John . You were mentioning the the old coffin route from . Starting at , you said. Starting at a hundred and ninety. On the one inch, map. Hundred and ninety. Up by that loch. Now that's near Loch . That's it. Watch me now. Ah can you mark it in maybe? That's it. I see, up to the Glen . That's right, but it doesn't go as far as the Glen , Right. it keeps this side of the Glen , To the side. And then in like that. Mhm. Follow me? Yes. I'll just have a shot at pencilling that in. Yes it's a very Its near it anyway. a windy track. It's a, oh yes a windy track. Not the easiest ways. The people who undertook such a It's more or less the hard ground. Aha, the ground very much ? And there was and there was cairns where they used to rest the the coffin, cairns here and there along the route. Was there? Where they used to rest the the coffin for a m m and have a dram and a piece of cheese or some biscuits. I'd read about, I read erm read in erm some paper or other not so very long ago, about erm a funeral and the that was going along the road of course,and they came to a to a erm hotel and they were och, they were going for miles and miles and miles and they went into this hotel and the they party the funeral party went into the hotel and had a good few drinks and they were well away when they came out and they they they went away without the coffin, for two miles, two miles before they discovered that they didn't have the coffin. They had to go back ag go back again for the coffin. The people who undertook er following that route, through such a an entanglement of lochans and turns, would have had to have know their directions very well otherwise Yeah. they could have been lost quite easily. And do you know think that these cairns possibly were there to guide them as mu as much as anything? Oh well they they knew the road, these men knew knew the road very well, and er they knew the Area. area, they could tell by the hills, they could tell the way. I came from m my from , across the hill with my father when I was sixteen, at night. At night? At night. But it was a lovely moonlit night and we didn't leave , it was about eight o'clock at night when we left . We were at at there, and I went with er with my father er on a Friday and we came back that night. Now that must be a good, what would you say, seven miles at least in one direction? Well it it would be something like that,so something like At least. seven miles. Easily. And Well it would, it was two good hours, to walk across the erm . Take you two hours anyway. That was well it's wasn't quite a mile and a quarter. And this was just a beaten track? Oh just a beaten track. Whereas the other one in Glen was an actual made track? Well I'll tell you a good story about that, to s , to let you see that it was a well beaten track. And it was just the the the people were often walking along this track, anyway there was a man,there was erm,was a, there was a man and a woman walked over to and walked back again at night, well in the the even , evening anyway. And the woman lost her brooch on the way back and she saw this man next morning, he was a policeman in , and he he was too fond of the drink,a and he he was on, he was a railway policeman, and he fell onto the rails, when the train was coming, nobody knows how he how he how he er he lost one arm er about there and the other one about there, both arms but he he survived it. Nobody knows how he he how the how his head wasn't bashed. But anyway this woman that lost the brooch, she me she saw this man, without the hands going across the hill to , she asked him where he was going, and he said, I'm going to to , across the hill. Are you coming? No, she said, I've been there yesterday, but er I lost a brooch, and I wish you would be on the look out for it. Did you keep the track all the way? he said. Yes, all the way. Anyway this man without the arms, he went to and he had er he had er a pocket outside his jacket here, and he he erm got the brooch and he called on the at the house where this woman was and he says, Put your hand into that pocket, he said, and she puts her hand in, Oh, she say, she says, You've got the brooch. Yeah, yeah, he says, I think that'll be yours. But how did the, what was puzzling a lot of people how did he manage to get it off the ground and into his pocket. By his teeth? He must he must erm stooped down on his knees and caught it in his mouth and and got it into his pocket some way or another. Mm, but both these people came from ? Yes, both of them. And that's a, an incredible tale. It is, right enough . Because it it really bears out what you were saying that the there was a track which Well it it erm, it shows you that there was a track. Because no one could have found that brooch if it had just been a wilderness. No, no, no, no. If you had been any any where else on the hill you'd have, wouldn't have a chance cos you couldn't, you couldn't follow the track that they they di they followed the day before. And that was the lady's son involved who told you this? That's right. Roughly when do you think it happened, that incident with the brooch? Pardon? When in time did it occur? That's right. Aha, can you put a date on it though? Was it the, before the Great War, during the Oh yes I think so. Think before the I think it as before the War but I'm not quite sure mind either, could have been after the War. That's the first War? I know the lady, oh yes first War, I know the lady was going to after the War, the man could have been. Very possible. Do you have any reminiscences of the the Great War and the way it affected , were many of the men called up to to serve from the area? Well all the young they were, they were either called up or they vol volunteered. And did you see vessels in the area, because you yourself would be too young were you not? N well I was I was erm I would have been called up in another two months after the War was over, if the War had continued I would have been eighteen in in that in the following January. Do you recall seeing any ships that were involved in the War coming by,? Well the the some of the soldiers and sailors used to walk from all the way home to or or . The snow was that heavy that no traffic, nothing could move. They were walking Er about all that distance . And there weren't really proper roads? The road the roads were there alright but they were Snowed. covered over with sn with a few feet of snow. There was no snow ploughs in those days, it was all hand cut if they were cutting drifts it was manual labour. Spade? Spade. Were you badly affect in the, by winters? Well we had we had a lot of snow in those days, far more than than there's been since then. The seasons seem to have changed. Now, how did these people you mentioned before make this track at , it was a better made track, you said it wasn't just a beaten Well from inside the inside the forest fence Aha. it's there it started and the rest of it was all a beaten track like what was going to . If, so from the the with Loch down towards it was a beaten track? That's right. But from the towards it was a proper track? That's right, proper track. Now how did they in those days make the the track? Well there'd be be a squad of men working there, paid by the estate. And use any materials that were found near by . And they they wouldn't be getting the money they're getting today. Aha. If they they they would, if there was a gaffer there he would be getting a shilling a day and the labourers would be getting ninepence or something,n ninepence a day. and it would be hard work too. Perhaps perhaps a pound or two of . These were the conditions then. That's how they had so much money, all these landlords in those days. There were no taxing. And any servants they had were low low were very lowly paid. I'll tell you a story about erm erm a girl from , she was on service in with erm Sir John , Sir John and Lady . There was a lodge there in in the in the village. And this day Lady had some letters to post in the early morning, she wanted them away, on the mails in the early morning. And she told this maid to go with the letters to post them. And it was going, but she doing something and she the Lady seen her going through a corridor and she said to her, Run Annie run. No my lady I never run for d anybody and I'm not going to run for you. She was a good maid though. and she didn't get the sack. Don't mind five grand coming your way. I think old man that's got a . . conversation. Tape a matter of conversation, anything that's . Are they gonna allow you to walk around with this as well. I'm not gonna worry about setting it up, it's recording now. . Well you're on candid tape. You recording now? Yes. Oh no are you getting money doing this? Twenty five quid. By the hour or week or . . I wanna record a bit of conversation people have between er their, their doing . Watch what you're saying chaps because were being . Er it's an invasion of our personal privacy. Fucking right it is. But. You know it's not, no it's erm for the Longman's Dictionary or something. Dictionary combined . Say thirty, to find out how people talk, but a lot Quack, quack, quack, quack. . One of my fucking answer . They didn't ask for it up on . . They sit and . How good is it picking up . . I mean how good's it gonna be picking up, is it gonna get all these background noises in? Yeah,. Where's the old microphone then? There. You cunt. Yeah, but the thing is, what it's, what it's doing is that, they want you to have a normal conversation on . So you gonna say suck my cock.. Hey, Chelsea. . find the . Chelsea, Chelsea. What's . . I'd wipe all that lot if I was you. No, it'll be alright . coming up . Oh yeah. Who's gonna obviously. Who?. Rumbold's is a shit hole. . . Coming down the old . say what, you sound fucking awful when you record yourself I . Yeah, you know what they say about,used by . fucking ever work?.. All that time Just speak normally, speak every day like you do. Fuck off round . When you stuff the old boy then?. Sounds as if it's been managed. You're not doing a very good job . Huh, come, come cos it's fucking early in the morning. But normally when What till you get our it . . , people start doing show off .. Look, stop it, but don't tell them next time. Just . Shouldn't of done, but . Are you allowed? without telling . Oh, but you are, but you must tell them afterwards . Afterwards , yeah. In which case if they're not too happy with it you can turn it off,rewi er wipe it off. I'm not turn it off and re-wind the fucking thing. You don't have to shout or anything. What's the fucking . recorder . What's . let me . He know's, he know's, just it's twenty five . Who's . Wouldn't mind doing it, just quite interesting . No, I got twenty tapes. Yeah I've just read the literature, I glanced at it. You what. Twenty fucking tapes. Shut up. Why, why do people get like this, tape recorder or film recorder or They're standing there going . I've normal so far, shut up you lot. fucking . It's an impossibility Stu don't give us that. Maybe is you know . We're gonna make you a star R R R er write down the . You stuff like that you go down the . Ah . So . conversation . Do you have to write down all those like, place,, date. Yeah I've gotta, I've gotta write name, erm just your first name nothing, nothing else. Mm. So you're still fucking .. Quite really. How did ya get into it? Out of order. Ah? How did, how did you see that. She come round to me, there's twenty five to thirty cross section use, and we made a down the road . so we said yeah. I mean they're all, they're all this walkman , not , but,. It's worth you doing it. Yeah, I trust, yeah. Lucky. really. one. I didn't know you could get stuff recorded like that, is it like specially adaptable, or is that normal walkman? That's a normal walkman it's got erm . I didn't even know you could record something. yes, that's, that's the only thing that's different about it, it's got record button on there, ever had a walkman? walkman ah? No, sure don't, wish I did. They long play tapes or something? They're full ninety minutes tape's. Seem like. Geht es dir? Wohin kommen sie? . What was you . . . Good morgen, guten tag, dankeshon Got ten pence Stewy? Er, no I pay for it, no go on give me that and I'll pay the ten P yeah you pay for me,. Oh, you're a show off. Yeah. . Have we stopped? No, no it's on . You would of thought a microphone and a camera would . It's amazing microphone up here. Number nineteen . Everyone's about two inches from it in . . They do some of the finest dictionary's and it's real read English. Yeah, oh. What's wrong with it now, go and . Well they wanted to know who this old boy is. Are you gonna have to write down all, all everybody in this section sort of thing? Yeah the thing is I've gotta write them down in the order in which they appear. Ah? So you have to listen to this? Yeah. Oh my good God. Probably. Ah, are you serious about this? Oh ah,. Just the first names, it's not . . Oh it is, it is, they just take your, your first name. . make sure .. beep, beep, hooray. Dildo. . . What they Oh dear oh dear oh dear. what they want is a regional dialect as well. you . . Yeah were gonna, were gonna mess them up ain't we, old boy and wimp and stuff. Yeah, you let that . . That's what I said she said she want's all everything you say, all conversations . . Is she nice? I but, not, ah . Oh I ain't doing nothing. Ah,, you ain't saying nothing then. Oh, oh,. Erm, who's for a cup of tea? . I'll go and put the kettle on. Ta. When you've done that first one you'll have to let us have a listen, I've never heard myself on the tape before. You don't want too. Sounds . . . Yeah. Oh what about, what happens if we start banging hammers and stuff? I was gonna have . Alright this morning. , the point is I mean the thing is were some good conversation. What the fucking hell does Oh I I . short sticky tape you never know, the old .. Not on a Friday, oh it's really not fair. God sake. It's . . Hello Mick how's it going mate? Lovely, wouldn't mind fucking going with her for a night I tell ya. Yeah. . She's wearing sort of an old fashion corset thought in it? Well, who give's a fuck what she's wearing, long's get it off at the end of the day. Oh, what you say? , shag, shagging. . . He send's me a paper the old boy . Shag, tramp. he's lucky, definitely come to bed with that . Why can't you read involve in the English language I do not know. Ok, steady on, Be a good one on that they will Fucking right, it shit. start, start, annoying Cheryl, fuck off and leave me alone Trev . Who's fucking down there then? Who parked the old car? Yeah, I get you fucking whipped. I know I would, get in there I want . You would? . might be embarrassed just put sports in the intellectual paper now, sports in intellectual paper now. word over five letters long the other day Who? , you know. Oh yeah. Yeah, wanker. Taken up your language . I've no down London every time I've been down there, and haven't seen any trouble. I've never seen any trouble down London, not first hand like, no, never. Well, I, I go down there like eight, nine times a year. I get about as pissed as a bloke can . you could go to an area for the rest of your life and still not see any fighting. Yeah, that's right, I mean, it is in it? Oh I go to Soho and China Town and that and I've never seen any trouble, the only time I actually saw a . I used to go because hopefully one of the hardest town in Yeah. Derby, but I mean one of the any aggro, the stall any hassle is in Covent Garden, which is a tourist place that was between two . . In a pub cos couldn't handle the old English beer and all that, and they start an argument between themselves. Tell you wha whe where is a rough place just recently is er Farnborough. Is it? Farnborough. It's always been rough place Did it?. Been there for a start so it must be a rough place . The amount of times people have been thrown from the top of your window at night sort of thing. been wrapped round people's head at tumble down and stuff. a rough place as well.. That's why were . Like the, the place that's really , really It's the video they get in it, it's the American influence in it?. No it ain't. It is, it's within our self in it? I don't believe that shit about you watch a video then all of a sudden you're a Rambo. Yeah, but your mind's on yeah, and what do they do, yeah and then they re-enact it outside. No, it's a load of shit, they can't, I can't believe you've got to have the mentality of a five year old and you fucking if you, if you believe it Well that's right . Yeah but not everybody But wants you out Trev, he might burst a . I . Yeah, it's true, you take bits of The Sweeney, yeah, they done an episode of where there's bank raid and what they don't want they use mask, masking tape right like that and end up . Got to try and come up with the rest of them that's how they done it , a couple of days after somebody re-enact that again. Yeah, but the thing is right, they, that's because they're criminally insane any way, it may have given them an idea but it doesn't mean that that women or whoever it might not of died any way. I don't see why, why the, the many should suffer because of the few idiots. Trouble is they lie . you lie . Yeah, but even so, the well it, you're I wouldn't see a film . Do you think , you see you've got to get another bloke and bloody great, he'll do the same thing. Well, we can't the only way stop it all together and that ain't gonna . Do . When we . Yeah. Well I mean I've known this bloke, if somebody's gonna do something like that whether they see it on a film or not, I still go out and do it, they make it . look, look . I've . Once upon a time there . Oh yeah, but some people, you can't, you can't not for everybody do it . No, no, no, oh no, not . you've got all this America's, the America's,, not a lot . Oh yeah. Oh yeah, I agree with that, I, were are afterwards, were are body . Yeah way of life . I mean I think to a, I think to a degree we always have been fifty sort of thing when the rock 'n' roll started to come over then again you see for we, we look little one . Little one . You know, the only way, the only way you can stop them is to . All I know is that any, any sight , any sight person who watches television doesn't forcibly go out and re-enact it. I, I . Well, I don't think so. I was gonna say, if, if, if he, if he's not reasonably sane then he might be, he's gonna do, go out and do something like that any way Yeah. he makes a plan a diff a different way sort of thing . The, the idea have been planted there any way. Yeah all the film bloke's have way of doing it, which he, he probably would of found out any way. It's not hard to kill or damage any one it'll be a long old day today I reckon , dragging already . I'm might say, what I'm, I'm not saying that film but in some, in some cases he don't, you know, there has always been he don't in this a lot of people. Yeah . Yeah I'll go along with that. Yeah I would. Yeah I'll go along with that. . Hear, hear. I don't know what were going along with so I ain't gotta say. Hear, hear. What are we going along with? Dunno. Sometimes a small minority of people can be influenced by what they see via the films or something. Yeah, I'll go along with that. I'll go along with that old boy. Yeah, just . . I still don't think do about it. Shut up we played the , you think about all them mother's . Oh or something. Big of them there. . Yeah, who was, who was there , who was there there though. . Who was there there though. They reached thirteen nine, cos they'd two and a half times amount of play. Who was there . Either that or there, all had there boots . Charlie loves the didn't he? Oh god, I think fucking Charlie . I rang about half six . . Making a funny . Fucking weren't,.. They might be . It goes . . Wasting my time . after . No, it's not. . . what other game I'll be the one laughing . Morning Chris. What you doing, gonna do, go one and one after work are ya? , I'm only winding him up. Look boy, you've never played in an eleven side match before,. Yeah, look's like . They've got to stop every five minutes for a . Thank you very much, they're well stitched. It's not a stitch up. Trying to find . What I mean to say it's not very,it could be appreciated if they about it, but we just er left to do it and then tell him afterwards the bits. Really? if you draw that much to it, you'll be entitled to wipe your bit off, not got to worry about it. You don't have to tell his why doing it, but he has to tell you afterwards. If somebody, he tapes somebody and they draw exception to it, say right, tell them I don't want to be taped. If, you wanna be taped or what. No, it's entirely anonymous all they're trying to do is find out how people speak. What about fuck off , that's it want, every day a modern day plan . That's what they want , as they're doing a dictionary. No find it keeps . . . Oh, we just we just had a fairly intelligent conversation I thought. Er, thank you very much. None of us is blooming Einstein. Tell you what Mark, that must be a hell of a job trying to collate all this information you know, must be a hell of a job trying to collate all this information they're gonna have to get, I mean how many people are they gonna get to do this? . It's gotta be a lot of people to get a rough guide in it? Well what they're doing is that . Check this out old boy. Right guys, I'm gonna need a hand on this one anybody? Need a hand. . Barry might . What's this, what's this. Might need a hand,. . Might need a hand. Oh . . What erm, what seems to be erm Just to do that. Oh this is the erm Are we erm, happy with us? Yes. Jolly good, pretty good all round. Oh, that's too much. Were all . All that as well. There's a well there you go, ban from the sink kitchen. . Yeah, there's no answer to that . . He needs . Sounds like a good name for a pop group don't it? . Quiet on this section at the moment in it? You keep must be the quietest time of day for us. Yeah. That and dinner. I'll turn it off dinner time, don't want to hear the sound of Chris's snoring. What time is it? Quarter too. . Oh right, we can go out. Oh fucking hell,. I know some guy still takes snuff every now and again. What's it made off this snuff? Clears the nose don't it? That's right, makes you sneeze don't it? What . Goes get's a little shop in , it's an old form of . What? be able to make some . yet? I've always got a . watching. I hate that stuff. . Like from sex shops and stuff like that, that is. Bit that old bag in it? That ain't like the bag oh thought that she meant the come out of. Oh . Does dunnit . Bob and Tony go to the club this afternoon put her down, if I'm any where near that I'd fucking stop and all sorts. Yeah, a bit late What? Do you have to listen to every single one of those tapes? No, I'm not suppose to, really. I think I will,list of all the names and that. Yeah. Well actually I . True . But I, I obviously try to. Yeah, same here. But Yeah, you don't try and find a . you tape don't show that . Yeah, give me a . Yeah. Yeah and me. Yeah and me. Can you tapes out for you. Handy having one of them round your when you go in the office . Yeah. What's that? Need a then would ya? Yeah. Yeah and I hear the . . Who do you know . Ooh ah,. Ooh are, ooh are, ooh are, ooh are Rolling Stones first album. What? . Oh before my time old boy. Works at Rumbold's as well didn't he? . What do you think of that? What do you think of them then?not it ain't. Better,shipping. down to me. Do you know I fucking do . I only put . My god, there's tins out there stew. Yeah, so. Why the fuck are you using them? Barry wanted me to use it up alright nosey. Fair enough. . Don't see what the aggravation is over here. It's all your fault Barry use this up. . oh my life. We told to do that for ya. Yeah, see, better not do . . And . Ah, well he's gone off sick. Just cos I'm fit you see. You see, she's got no . No, he's just gone on. I don't know whether he's gone on or something because it's . They've already done that already. What? A by the side of it, are . . I had it, had it recording last night . whole lot about six hundred quid .. And er the cats started playing with the microphone pushing it about,, you can actually hear the cat playing. . bath . Never called greatest cat, really is, I mean , come towards ya, grab you and bite you and then if I throw him away about five minutes later he'll come up and bite you again you know, really fucking, don't just like, just keeps on doing it. My sister's got two Alsatian's, all they do on the . my cat. Gravy. Yeah. This little ginger one of ours, he's, he's a terrier, me uncle looked after a Staff a Staff Bull Terrier and er his name's Winston and he immediately walked through there as if he owns it, you know, the way they do. And he scoffed all ginger's grub Mm. to the bathroom, you know, expecting a big welcome and there's ginger lying there, he's only about ooh of five inches long and he's only about, weighs less than a , immediately he's backs arched and he's hissing away there, his tail came up like you know Yeah. and er he stood there and old Winston's trying to sniff him,giving it all the hissing, eventually has gone ?like this and . Dog sort of stood there and looked at you know, he didn't know where to put himself, let him, eventually he, he's sort of, you can see it on his face did that, fucking thing keep away from me . Stopped on . . Say don't let it me near,I don't want anything to do with it. Oh he's an engineer and he don't fucking know nothing. Who else . I'm a .. Doesn't really matter does it? . Oh, oh fuck off Mark.. What he drink . Who? Him,. Oh, oh You're getting far too cheeky . Getting . Oh fucking stand for that. What, what for? . . You're lucky that if that'll be any harder I would fucking his fucking neck off for him. Try it sometime. Yes, let's go now, lunch time yeah. Yeah. Alright then. Let's go fucking now. Alright . It's alright, still legible. You done a boogie. What happen was we was standing this jeweller's, well really we'd been there, she half the stuff for me and er other people and that, but erm, were standing there for ages, and she come, I'm, I'm sort of standing there like this up against the counter waiting to be served, suppose to be coming back right, stood right on the foot, it hurt, but I thought ok it's a busy shop he won't so I'd turned around, sort of he was there, so I sort of went to him like that and he was looked at me and fucking looked back, so I said are you gonna apologise then, getting right fucking pissed off cos I about three o'clock that day, hang over and being dragged up and down the town all fucking day ain't my idea of fun you know,ri right in a bad mood anyway, and he said no in a real fucking why don't you try and make me sort of attitude, so I'm just about to fucking say something to me, like, how out the shop and everything, and she said what's the fuck, what's the matter with you then? I said well that cunt stood on my foot, she said so,move out I said what about good manners then. . Would of been right, you know would have been a nightmare,expected to all over the place. But if somebody said to me shop, alright you don't flare up face you flare up with them for not fucking apologising. Yeah, I suppose. Me sort of, I said you gonna apologise then? He sort of said, sort of went no, so I went don't fucking apologise me you shit and all this sort of stuff right . So I I fucking get it right, say something, I was right pissed off by this time, next, I, I, I stood out and step forward fucking get closer sort of thing and say something and that was it,. . Makes me look a right cunt dragging me out of the shop let alone. , oh I hate shopping, I had a massive hang over, right piss up the night before,Sunday. Ah? Sunday, I, I was up ladder cutting the trees down Yeah. Oh, right, we row, we lucky we've got a row of trees all the way along the back fence like, and in the summer when all the foliage makes quite a nice barrier for the noise and sound and stuff, but what were trying to do is to stop them from, were trying to make them spread out Yeah. the right way to do that is crop them, don't ya? Yeah. So there's me and a mate up a ladder with chain saws and that nearly all day yesterday, good fun actually. Give me a fucking chain saw in me hand I'm well away , love it. They're not, they're not big trees or nothing so I mean there was, it was only a, like one of these small power chain saws,one hand sort of thing, grab hold of it like that, there was nothing, no really big branches, were only cutting the tops off. We, we did trim them a bit around the sides, they were quite big, you know,. What are they trees or something?. Erm, I don't know really, Oak, Sycamore a mixture. trees. .got a couple of Oak tree's, there in the corner you've got, cos our fence you've got that, my house is there right,road down like that and you've got a fencing, it goes like that and with got trees all around it. Yeah. And they're and they're, we've got Oak, big Oak trees that have started to get quite big now as they will and the rest is all a mixture of Horse, Horse Chestnut and Sycamore and couple of other like things in there. A couple of times we had big branch and stuff . You know good fun, love, love having a hand and chain saw. We, we hired one of these little ones, we did get a bigger for the , only cost us fifteen quid to hire three chain saws for the day. Where was that? That was the, erm, the tool hire shop in, in North Camp. Yeah. it's alright. You pay for your own petrol and stuff. Oh yeah, yeah . Yes, it's wicked, wicked man. Might go . Yeah, yeah. Not got a hang over or nothing. No. Still . I've been as fucking sober as a Judge since Friday night. Put me off I think. Yeah, I only go out drinking now once a week so I think I make the most of it, can't remember anything I did Friday night again. typical night out. No I don't know whether it's true or not I don't know whether they're fucking trouble is it sounds like the sort of thing I do, is we parked in the multi storey car park in Guildon . . Parked in the multi storey car park in Guildon and were walking along and like there's all this, you go down to the ground floor and then you've got the first and second and er you can get to the first floor where it's like the first floor the first floor is just above sort of street level Yeah. but, with, with this walk down into this, this dip so I had to get underneath and I said where'd you park? and he said the second floor taking the piss, so apparently three of his other mates who were well dressed up as well, and he, he said race ya, so I started off fucking, so he, he started off running through the thing right, cos said race yeah, he went, apparently I just climbed up the outside of the building climbed up two fucking flights of floors, you know, I can't remember anything about it though. You see I can't remember if they're if they're pulling my plonker or not, but that is the sort of thing I do, but I can't remember anything about it. The only trouble is I did have quite, well it's easy though that's the thing it's just like a, it's just a multi storey car park, so it's quite easy, and you, you know you can get strong when you're pissed don't you, like What fucking . Well either you have to think it's wrong. yeah but I mean, I it, I when I'm fucking pissed, I can't sober, that's why I probably think they're, they're not pulling a plonker cos I've done that sort of thing in the past had me fucking climbing on bikes, swinging off the side of the building . Oh I. See I never know whether they're pulling, pulling a plonker or not you know, that's the real , like I said I can't remember doing it, but, I wouldn't put it pass myself and I fucking get stupid, I don't get aggressive or anything I just get stupid, you know, I do shit like that. I've nicked bus stop signs, fucking road signs and stuff, I just get stupid, that's if I get that pissed, I mean I probably talking of, talking of fucking all most not knowing you're right name sort of pissed. . That's the thing,apparent apparently I couldn't even walk straight, and yet there's me fucking climbing up the outside of a building, which to me sounds about right. God knows how I didn't kill myself and the sheer of the whole thing was, it wasn't even on the second floor, it was on the ground floor, they were just pulling a . Cos I count. I, I use to go up the . But norm nine times out of ten you went the inside of it. Oh yeah, just sat there in the outside, down a . Well I, see, if, my memory Fucking people use to come out and fucking say to me, fucking wanker up there, I wonder if he's gonna jump,the old bill . Well, my, my memory right, you go down into, into like a, the ground floor and the top of the, like the bottom of the next floor is about that sort of height, but there is a wall up there sort of thing, which erm, I, I must, which you could probably get on. So what they says is that I, I got on at this wall, jumped across onto this other wall, shinned up the outside of this other wall, stood on top of this the first floor wall and jumped up and caught hold of the top of the second floor wall and he reckon in the la about fucking twenty odd seconds, I was up and over and in, they, they, they fucking kill yourself, get down, I can't remember none of it. The on the only thing I can remember is running after the car. Why they all just piled in did they? Well I don't know. to fuck off? Yeah, probably, me and this other mate he'd a, did a, I can, I can remember him saying something about I'll race yeah, it, like I remember just remember him, me and him run running down ramps and stuff trying to get back down to the ground floor, so . Actually sometimes I'm pretty glad I don't remember things like that. You can see why I was in such a bad mood Saturday cos if I'd drunk that much Friday night you can imagine what sort of a hang over I had. I mean we got up about nine o'clock as well. but er I'd meet up in town and our house like twenty past nine, half past , get, get, get the bit of shopping done before the fucking crowds I might off wasted me time, we got in there about ten o'clock,right old day. Yeah. By fucking half past ten it's, it's well busy, it's so packed. Barry's not there. I bet you hate it when the glue goes hard . Yeah. That's the only thing with bonding . When you're fucking pissed out does compare to lot of them taking sister up to er Black you know. Yeah, I could do with some . The thing is the said to me she said, oh were going out in style and have a drink, had a really nice sandwich there like, it was french loaf about that bit, get nice home cooked lot's of cheese and onion right, really nice . Fucking dangling . Yeah, I just go and get this and I'll go and pop down to . eat sort of thing. We eventually got in there about coming up to half past two Yeah. so I mean I'd been dying for this pint all, all day sort of thing, I felt much better after that. Yes that right, yeah, and that was the start of this erm I said I was myself but , but what get's me is people stand there chat, I mean your walking behind them and then all of a sudden there just stop dead, and you must be carry on walking oh god there's about twenty of them there blocking the fucking isle Yeah and you've got to try and get round them, oh god, there's about six thousand trying to do the same thing. I'll tell you what my idea of hell is going Christmas shopping with them. and then you've got women all round the worse one's are the women with the kiddies in the pushchair,and you've got to go round and you . Tell you what women with pram's and stuff, there fucking tread on the babies head or something. Notice that supermarket's . Yeah, fucking little kid like it's bad enough standing there trying to be calm and nonchalant like most bloke's do in the fucking underwear department. Don't . Oh, I wasn't and erm, the next thing I know I've nearly fucking been bowled over, sort of the bags in fucking look behind me , so those two fucking bought the bags back down fucking legs and I've just caught this like running round another, another thing, I thought oh fucking little kid, the next thing I know there's another one gone pass me like, taken the bags,the handles out of the plastic bags, fucking and it was a girl that was going first this time, so I and sure enough there was a little fucking brat boy coming again, so I just went flying he sort of looked up at me and rubbed his eye like that and carried on running after the . I said you come round here sonny you'll . I was just about to wind up, right, you know. brown bread. Fucking what, I, I'm, I think it was he's mum or not, some old biddy gave me a right old . put the handbags of the and as he came round I sort of went . And you know the only reason you've got a hang over and you know there isn't really any body else to blame but yourself, but that makes you want to look for a scape-goat, but the kid . There's nothing worse than being in a foul temper and knowing that it's only you, you've got to blame for it. It's really nice and sweet all day and it's fucking making me even angrier. I hate going shopping with them, she wants to go next Saturday, I said fuck that. Go on your own. Yeah, oh what, I didn't actually say fuck that,I know I've got to go and get your present you know. Friends family and stuff,day sort of thing, that'll be quite a good idea. right. She'll, she'll think that's right . I know it's good in it?but erm,bought her, I've bought her a Ghost video. A what? A Ghost video. Oh yeah. Bought her, erm,, bought her a little I was gonna split that . I've only got eight more things to get her, I've already spent about, I don't know, sixty quid on her. Don't tell me your mates just gone to the sun and the sand as well. Yeah, oh he's well in love. Is he? Mm, definite marriage case. I don't know how, I don't know how they can stand to be apart . Ah? . What. All of a sudden you, you done quite well and pick up a. Tin, tin, tin, tin all his in the store , eaten all the fishes in the poor old master's . . I want that in my can not see,with me Hello Harry, how's it going in city? . . . there was Chris, Chris trying to take the piss in the there was Chris, Chris gonna take the piss in the , my eyes looked in my can of , I have no with my, I have no not a , trying to make ya We'll take it's up the What can you do . Always look on the bright side of life Here, did you hear that Barry . We must be the latest . your number one fucking Oh, I must get You've lost that loving feeling, ooh, that feeling, he's got that feeling which is, is gone, gone, gone, cos he can't go on no, wow, wow, bom, bom, bom, bom, bom, bom, bom . can't go on no, wow, wow, bom, bom, bom, bom, bom, bom, bom . What? he get's down on his Microphone when we start singing. Go on break the . We don't need nothing Oh, what we need is Richard over here to give us some of his crazy comments, yeah. never came over today did he?. Do you wanna tell me what number it is? . I could be what number it is . It is two, five, one, one, O it. C, seven, eight, three Hold up, hold up what, seven, eight, three, seven Seven, four, nine Got that on Monday morning I thought that was the worst time of the week. No it's alright, you fucking annoy me. That's what makes Monday worth warming his smile. Fucking twenty five to three clamped up fucking arsehole,about to stick one on tramp. Yeah, don't let him get that close to me. No, alright then. Fuck off, the lot of ya. We all gonna have a little sing a song . I have been. Have yeah. . Yeah, where have you been? It's been .. I've been having . Ah, right. Is that all you've done? No, I've done . it's a forty hour week man. We've been in at five past eight, we've been in past eight. No, yeah, but only works . Then again Barry we don't creep in at fifteen minutes past eight either. I didn't creep in I just boldly . . . He says that really well there actually. Same dozy kind of voice. If the van was big enough we could put oh this won't notice . Is he? . Yeah he said look that's what I gave you he said. Here's the other half. Paranoid I threw that actually and I didn't . I just saw you standing there with a smile on your face. Can't help it I I'm such a give away when things like that are happening. A grand total of eleven pounds They haven't covered it yet, are they going to? Er dunno. Suppose they wanted us off. making up cash. See that fucking brilliant. petty cash. don't drop that. won't be able to choose it . I can't imagine who suggested it. a bit tasty. Bit tasty. Nicer than Let's have a look. Give him a little plastic clock. Yeah. clock . Yours is in a right fucking state. He would be impressed. I told you he'd see it. What? See what? He would you know. playing around with I'm playing diseases . You're the only bloke we haven't got yet Barry. Towing him up the road. They're all hanging waving . Oh you broke it Barry . An origami lesson. Have you got nothing better to do than . No. No. We're making a, making a we're making a collection for Mr I've got mine here waiting to go in. Got mine. Got mine. Oh sod I'll tell you what I'm gonna put in I'm gonna put in fifty P you. I sh I should have brought that Irish woman in. She was a bit thick. What that Irish woman? You really should. I ain't used to her voice Who's got money? . You can see it now can't you? Farewell day he's gonna give his farewell speech, thank you for your generous donation. I really needed these two nuts and bolts for for a chair I'm making at home. Sounded like No,. Who's he? Director of B S G. Oh is he, I dunno anything about B S G. What about oh no. No actually 's not the top dog is he? Isn't he? The shareholders can vote him off the board themselves. Could they sack the shareholder?i i if there's a shareholder do they sack him? No. Could have. Shit should have bought shares shouldn't I. Actually I'm not sure Oh they can sack you on the works. Yes but they can't get rid of you as a shareholder. They could buy your house. Yeah but they can't sack you. But if you are a shareholder they can sack you . Eh? Got any money ready. Yeah. I've got mine here. Oh do sit down . That's where all the tape's going Stuart. I've only done this a little while. it's getting all out of hand now . Right come on knuckle down you guys or I shall have to get I've been knuckling down all the time. You what? Yeah, doing it on the wrong sides. One mistake I've made since I've been here that is. What? I said I'm getting more enjoyment out of. They don't put their backs in it. And putting it on there themselves. Yeah nice one Eric. That fucking They don't work. Permanently on there. Come on then, let's . Well they won't fit. armpits old boy. Oh I know. They still smell fresher than you . That is nice, that is. On the ball, as usual You know that boy you kept talking about? He's gonna be kicked in a minute. Who's been tooling all the parts? Ah! You! I noticed that . What have you got to do then ? Well you come over here for? Put them in the fucking Stuart , can you come and ? What? Oh no! The Oh Cheers . How do you know that? pack up . Or still to pack up already. Certainly not you that's for sure. Cos it's too hot. I can't. I know what I'm gonna put in I'm gonna put in ? Yeah. Who's fucking been cut the bottom off my ? No idea. Somebody's been chucking Who's fucking scalpel from ? This fucking clock card? Why, what's he done? Cut the bottom off it. Oh What the fuck do you think you're done ? Cutting the bottom off yours like you cut the bottom off mine. Do you wanna fuck off? Well who the fucking hell says I did that? I didn't do that. I don't care who told you I did but I didn't do that. He's taking it off the wrong hasn't he? No. I apologize old boy. You dozy git. Thanks very much . Oh I don't believe this. An innocent onlooker and I get fucking Card vandals. No that's not Yeah you know you make me wanna shout . I turn my back for one minute Oh shit. Oh shit. That ain't gonna . I don't know! Where's the bits for this ? That's the one. Where's the bits for this one? One man . One man and his dog Spot went to mow a meadow . paranoid. you got to do it again . See you've got to do it again. La la la la la America . go no slower now. I've got to make the job last. Mind your business Graham. I shouldn't have to put the fucking . Eh? I shouldn't have to put the fucking cut his card up a bit more. Just cut his, go on just a little smidgen. That's not his card. No I know he's taped it up hasn't he? That's alright. Cut it off right, cut more of the bottom off and leave the tape there. He's a nasty little boy isn't he, really? Eh? Boring now innit? Yeah a bit. Everybody's checking themselves so often that Eh? Everybody's checking themselves so often bit boring. Can't even get loads on anybody now. Can't even what? You can't even get loads on anybody now. People are keep checking themselves so often. They'd better not get any on me after I've done this, put it that way. After what? After I've done this. Well cos I can't check myself when I've got this on. It's gotta be you that puts them on you. . Telephone. They make me want a lot of things that I never had . What, what a singing voice? Whoo hoo. that is, bitch. And I'd be rich. Stinking rich gleaming rich. Yeah. pop over and see him No. You're fooling around with me now . He's not seriously going over there to get a pound out of Richard is he? Yeah. even did it. Wa hey you lead me on and then you look away wa hey well that's alright I'll get you alone tonight and baby you'll find you're messing with dynamite so what do you wanna make those eyes this guy getting drugs is Lying git aren't you? Load of old bollocks . I don't even like nicotine. I don't even like nicotine. Who's she? Do you have the occasional drink at all mate? Oh yes I do indulge occasionally. Er Jo. Believe it when I see her. They can't give can they? They can't . Yeah I have heard we're getting The full works. yeah, the full works or something, yeah. somebody said a little cake. Ha! That's a bit going overboard that is. Yeah well he probably meant a little cake you know, like the one Cherry bakewell. That's right . Can I have six thousand cherry bakewells please. Yeah. Actually I like cherry bakewell or a mince pie each. I get so, I just bung so much stuff in my lunchbox I don't eat . If you wanna get rid of that cherry bakewell Have you got cherry bakewell? Have you really? Me and Barry . You can have the cherry and I'll have the rest of it . I am very partial to cherry bakewell. I give you one yesterday. I gave you one yesterday. That would go down very nice with the cup of coffee I'm gonna have in a minute. Actually it's about time I had a cup of tea. I haven't had one yet. Thank bloody god it's Friday. Eh? No. Not I. Who ripped the er rubber bands off this? Dunno. Oh it's me again. Yeah I'll take the blame . There is, specially round your area. Right, I'm going to get a cup of rosie. Better not get messy though cos It's alright all over me desk. You wanker! can have a stagger round the town pissed out of. Oh, didn't I? Sorry about that. Still going is it ? Come in? How many fucking tapes have you gone through? Er four I think. What, at work? sit there and play the whole lot. Are you gonna play the whole lot back? Well what I'll do is He tells me you was getting the beers in. No I'm not. I bought them last week. this week. We ain't going. You just won the pools you tosser. Got erm syndicate . You can have them tomorrow morning . Yeah, can do. You've been wasting more . Stop sticking it on me back. Yeah, stop sticking it on my fucking back. Still still doing that. I'm not. No, shut up you. Is that tape still going? Yeah. Mm. Actually, what you should have done is got Jo to carry it around with her cos she could have got some very interesting conversations. Yeah could have done. What? Carry what around? Oh right,yeah . carry that tape recorder round with her She hasn't come round here yet though has she? No. No she I'm not gonna put anything in or , but I want a chance to refuse. Yeah, same here Yeah, that's right. Okay lads, money. She'll say no thank you. Shit. Got any timesheets Mark? Here you are Stuart . It's alright it's alright I've got a couple thanks. Oh your money out of you snack size it'll turn into a size. Sorry? Go on then. let's have a look in there. Hold on, I'll give her so he can have some change. He slipped up. Yeah I've only got change. Eh? I've only got a note I'm sorry. You're gonna do what? Think I might put in a note actually. I missed out on my didn't I? Paid out two rounds. Nearly nicked that. I got it yesterday so I said I'll I'll I'll pay me contributions when I go . they've got a clear out on clearance sale on. Ten pe Yeah Ten pence a cup. people are not putting anything in. When's this rave then ? Eh? Well normally at a sport centre and that. Big hall Old Freddie Mercury . Cheers Barry. Tell you what if I the next one . That's nice. Sick. Oh what! Right, that's it. Yeah I did. He was doing his po doing his . Yeah. Did you do that? Me? No, wouldn't do a thing like that would I? Oh god here it comes. Oh look they're gonna miss out on it. Oh that's fucking choice Last day. second oh I paid him back with Mark's fifty pence. It's two pence. Well whatever Yeah, righto. a token in be rich. Oh! You're not gonna if you're not wanted. Monday I'm going. I can see you're really pained by that . Oh my life, here's Richard. Hello Rich. Eh? How do Richie? No, cherub's only er going over there and ask for his quid that he didn't put in. Yeah. That's fair enough innit. Bollocks. Yeah, that's fair enough. Come on Rich. Your as tight a bloke as cherub is. Put up or shut up. Yeah, we would have won anyhow. I might as well just save my pound and give it to whoever fucking wins that thing cos I've never won it. That's right Graham reckons Sid's won it so I might be the only bloke who hasn't won it yet. Well has Sid won it yet? Out of the original, there's only you and Jonesy. Yeah but Jonesy ain't here you cunt so it's only me. Yeah you probably put the other fiver in. Do you hear that? Thirteen pound fifty two they've got out of nine hundred people. and all. pound fifty two. I know. Apparently Sid or somebody put a fiver in. We heard you give gen generously. Did really, he pissed in it. That's probably what they're gonna think anyway. Nine hundred people she brings back thirteen fifty two. They're gonna say hold on where's the rest of it . I need a job Barry. Yeah you're not the only one. I do need a job old boy. Well you gotta fill your timesheet out. Oh who did that! Forty minutes. Sorry? Said That's your er well, what's that doing there? I dunno. One pound seventy eight pence. suss it out. Oh who's oh your dirty ! Was that you? Well nobody's buying the rounds. Oh, I ain't got any money on me. So when when do you lot, when do this lot goes? Not next week, it's the week after innit? Yeah. was gonna come up but he ain't got any money. I'm in France next Sunday. Stay there. En francais. Stay there. Thank you. No problem. I would if I fucking could. Nicer climate. I wouldn't live in France if you paid me. Why? France is quite a nice country it's just polluted by frenchmen that's the only trouble. That's why I couldn't live there cos I'd be fucking, I'd be every night . You what? Good sport. Let's have your Oh yes. Oy. Is this definitely on for next Friday? Come on lads, make up your minds I dunno, I might have an appointment. I haven't. Don't be stupid. I see him throw it. Fuck off! Stuart! Oh no, that's cruel. What's this? Picking on Stuart day? I haven't done anything with them. Well least of all fuck with them. He's had his card chopped, he's had his timesheet chopped. All for nothing, I haven't even done anything today. Exactly. What do you get when you do something? Well the times I do fuck with people's stuff and I don't get caught and the time when I haven't I'm getting hammered left right and centre. Where's my erm ? Cheers skanky Cheers what cunt? Skanky. They call her flapper, flapper . I don't fucking believe this. A bit of a slapper she's not very dapper she takes it up her crapper neighbours everybody needs good neighbours with a little understanding . Thirteen pounds fifty two. Pounds fifty two pence. Yeah. We've heard, out of nine hundred people Quite impressive innit? Very It's a lot actually for very depressive. Come on then, give us some of the fancy German stuff. Eins zwei drei vier funf. Wo hier kommen sie. Ich kommen aus Where do you learn that then Graham? Er nightschool. You actually took German then? Yeah. You didn't pick it up in Germany when ? No, I was doing doing German nightschool. I beg your pardon? Sounds nasty. Ja ja. Haben sie kinder? Nein. Wascher wascher nummer kinder That must be kids innit? Yeah. Yes How many children. None. I only got that cos kindergarten. Zero innit? That's my father's name?car. No, what colour's your car. Oh. Silver. Silver, silver ah . Mein mein motor ist er rot Red? Yeah mine's red. Habens sie rot motor You're on drugs. Nein. Mick got that one right. Anyway I'm not I'm I'm sort of like beginners course . Ugh Oh yeah well. and I was gonna French. Eh? I'll go and do a French C S E and er they basically if you get sort of like a B or a C that's enough to get you by Parlez-vous francais eh? Eh? Parlez-vous francais? Ah oui. Er Un petit. Un petit pois. Erm oh shit. Merde. That's who this is for actually it's Longman's. They're the the people who do the the tapes and stuff for French and German and stuff like that . But it's it's also going to the Oxford English Dictionary, cos what they want do you know it's gone. I can't spea cos I've been learning German I can't remember it. It's all for the Oxford English Dictionary. What they want is everyday talk. Really? Straight up. So they're gonna listen to Rumbold speak and think oh my god. What's this for anyway? Oxford English Dictionary. So, so I said they're, they're They're trying to make a dictionary up for everyday language, that everybody uses. So rather than You're getting paid for this are you? Twenty five quid. Yeah? Gift voucher. They're, they're, they're put well, they're supposed to be putting swear words in it, stuff like that you know so They they just want ordinary common or garden speech cos basically to help sort of like English students actually coming to this country you know? They hear sort of rhyming slang and things like this and they think my god what's he on about. And I suppose their slang version to gonna help out other people. What do they do? Er don't know actually I mean he's told me all about this stuff . It's a lightweight. Bog off you. I'm gonna hit you What I wanna know what was all this fucking hassle in aid of? What hassle? Just minding me own business and I get fucking things thrown at me, timesheet ripped timecard cut . Shame about that . Fuck off. Timecard cut, I dunno. It's just not good enough. No, they could have cut it a bit more couldn't they? I mean really. try and get out on time me old boy. Eh? No, I was talking about him. He was first out last time near enough. like anything weren't we old boy? Yeah. Yeah! I'm really stitching me timesheet. . I'm having me fucking stuff vandalized. Did you see that ? My person was attacked. Not to mention me timesheet. Just what the fucking do you think you're doing? Is that any of your business? Think it is as you're using my tools. Don't even know if I'm gonna be able to clock out this aft this evening. Oh that's gonna, that's gonna kill the cherub. Cos he wants a lift off you I mean what's he gonna do? Yeah old boy! Cherub, you should have thought of this mate. What's, what happens if he can't clock out tonight? You're gonna be fucked for a lift ain't you? Have to fucking walk home won't he? Have to fucking walk, don't bother me. Just walk anyway. over the bridge innit? Fuck off. Give me a mint for that. Give me a mint cos I haven't. Oh no, I don't believe I did that. I'm having a nightmare. What've you done now? Threw away my bag of rubbish and stuff and I had a packet of mints in it . Oh Get it out, that'll still be Ain't fucking fishing through that lot. Twenty one p's worth of mints. Got more pride than that. then. Yeah well we know what sort of bloke you are though. Fucking skint. That had better go in that's all I can say. On top of old smokey Arseholes are cheap today arseholes are cheap today. yesterday I never used to I never used to realize what people were talking about at school and stuff when they said . That's hilarious innit? What? I never used to get that though . say it at school and somebody'd say that and go oh! What's the difference between a prick and a cunt. I bet he still sat there and laughed though. Oh yeah, like you do . No, you go home, you think about it and Yeah. you know? You daren't ask anyone. He didn't realize what he was saying . I I will always remember the poor guy who was coming out of the showers with a hard on . He was queer. thirteen or fourteen. Oh this guy wasn't. I've seen him since with some really nice women and he had girls at school as well. No that helped him actually,trying to find out whether he was or not. Yeah he come out the shower with an amazing you imagine . Is that Stuart? Yeah. Get all the young kiddies fifth year. fifth year . in the towels and that. go in the shower with them on. fifth years thinking they're like grown up and everything. fourteen sort of an an average sort of time for puberty Yeah. round his navel. It's exactly the same as, we had one And he was he was a big, not, I don't mean big down but he was a big sort of stocky bloke as well. And he was well well mature for his age. I mean he looked like an eighteen year old. There was one at our yeah. Exactly the same as ours. When we was about fourteen in the fourth year at school, there was this quite chubby bloke he'd have a towel just there while you shower. Yeah that's right, that's what He'd sort of hang out, he'd shower with his you know he'd go like that, yeah look at me I'm, I'm mature sort of thing. That's so funny. It wasn't at the time because you had a real complex about it but Right old bombardment I got then didn't I? anyone? Next page old boy, next page. Oh, next page even. Bloody hell! Perhaps there ain't none in there today. Could have sworn I saw some tits in there today. I did see some tits in there, yeah. Do you wanna go home? Jam special again old boy. Yeah quite nice. Quite nice. but I can't handle that pub. Thank the fuck for that. Hi ho hi ho it's off to work we go. With a bucket and spade and a hand grenade hi ho hi ho hi ho hi ho hi ho it's off to Rumbold's we go with a bucket and spade hi ho hi ho . Hi ho hi ho so it's off to work we go Figaro figaro figaro figaro Scrape the scalpel out. That's right I do apologize. all the bollocks. What for? You haven't done anything. Right. Who the fucking hell you gonna blame now Frank ain't here then? Eh? You've got nobody left to blame have you? You gonna clean my board? No,off. Oh, you nancy. Look, I don't wanna go home with dirty hands, alright? I don't eat food with dirty hands either. I like fucking clean hands. Yeah. That's why I don't ever do any work. Even when you're working. Cos you don't do any work. Cos you got clean hands. That's why you I think you're well out of order. What time is it? Four twenty. And we're Leeds United Leeds United F C . Yes my son? And so begins another weary day so begins another weary day. La la la la in the morning I awake my arms my legs my belly aches And so begins another weary day. Oh in the morning I awake, my arms my legs my Oh my is full of shit my is full of shit it's full of shit, shit and . Oi fuck off,punch your fucking lights out. cunt. Trev, maybe you didn't hear me. I said fuck off or I'll punch your fucking lights out. Oh, sorry old boy.. Alright ? Fucking well be. Well,you see. But he's not saying that to anyone else. Just have to wait and see. Not yet anyway. are you pulling my plonker or what? Like we'd love to just ask Barry what just er Mick He reckons we'll be going soon. . I I'll go after Christmas. Sort me out well it wouldn't, would if I get a job. I mean in a way I think it's probably the best thing that's happened to me for a while cos I could see myself see the thing is I can I wasn't ever planning to be here for even six months. And all of a sudden I was here for six months and then it was, then it's a fucking year. I mean how long was I gonna be here for for Christ's sake? It cou I mean it you could easily do three or four years here and just fucking get lost couldn't you? two year . Two years. Well that's nothing so bad because this is what you're trained for but Well they're car fitters look. All the time I spend here is fucking getting me further away talk about sheet metal work. Well they don't know you weren't being aren't doing sheet metal work here. Thing is this is taking me further away from my trade. The longer I do here knows fuck all about sheet metal work. I dread going back to an aircraft company. I'm gonna do the pump and go back with the chaps. Quarter to eleven, pick up the chaps and go for a smoke. he wants to see him. Yes he does. I told you that about two weeks ago. Why does he want to see me? Dunno. Just been told to carry on round. is this lot going Barry or what? This lot getting are they getting, yeah. Still getting still getting Eh? They're still getting a go at college aren't they? Mm. Yeah if we do get the boot it'll be the next few months. What about our college course? Have they said anything? It's all paid for innit? Keep going. You'd have to pay for exams and all that, but it's all paid for at the end of the day innit? Is that it? Eh? seven I make it. See you later guys. Everybody else is going. Old didn't believe me when I said this afternoon. Will he be thinking of us when he spends his gold mancho that's what he'll get. Yep. Will he still be thinking about us poor working , no I don't think so. What do you think the public are still I know its mild, but I feel its particularly how you feel then, if I put you on . A paint party,, we can all sit around and sniff paint. Yeah, that's it, you've got it in one. Only, we didn't have any gloss What's a paint party mate? and a brush and they supply the and that's it, you pay and get pissed at the same time . Oh, No, its not being in concert, that Jason, that something being taken for years, it must of been, Jason or whatever he's name is. Jack , he must of been painted for years, he's been on ship. Have you ever seen the real Jackson Only on the T V in it? I've put er a Royal Academy I don't go places like that Last time I went to the was the school one Went to the Royal Academy when I was doing my 'O' Levels,it was a Jackson follow up it was about, ambulance was about twelve foot by twelve foot, it was literally splodges of paint all over the fucking place, it was horrible,you can actually buy them at the Royal Academy, you can't buy them at , but he was asking a hundred thousand pounds for it, I couldn't believe it, a trained monkey could of fucking painted that Well that, it probably is. Jackson is a monkey at London Zoo. All you have to do is get one mug buy it, too buy it, he's made ain't he, ah? I mean see why they call people like Constable, Rembrandt a great artist I never see how they can call anybody like About Picasso a great artist Na, I don't know Its just crap Its all Oh who's that geezer who's just started who used to paint , can' think of the pop artist, Andy Oh yeah. I think that's a load of shit, half of his stuff, I mean they're, they're good reproductions, tin of Heinz Bake Beans but any monkey can fucking do that charge fifty grand for it or whatever they charged for it The ones I've always liked is erm, I dunno if you've ever seen any,Ed , Edward Lanzear used to paint a lot of er Queen Victoria used to do er animal paintings. Really fucking and her some of the Dutch masters Franz Hells and er Not really an arty person. but, sort of like er, erm its like so, some of those paintings of the wraps and beautiful boat, they look as if they've just been photographed, they looked as if they're a photograph not a oil, oil painting . There's The only artist I know that brings to mind that I think is absolutely brilliant is David Sheppard,You got a print on his works and its only one of a hundred prints, and even his prints are worth about a thousand pounds. No, but What you doing? bearing up, er, under the strain. case. Mm, yeah Times hard, thought of all days, thought the old lady still wouldn't let me of the old erm She would she wouldn't,good this week I've managed, I've managed to get the bottle today thought. See what I mean, No, no, that is, that is true probably, yeah, this is true finished playing that tape yet? Yeah I have switched off. You've been up for weeks now, haven't you? No, I have, I've got it, its out in the car That's the keep er the actual, the actual master tape for that one I, I lent to somebody and I haven't got it back, I can't remember where it is No I I pop out Do, do, do, do you the place? I've got to go up the town, like Right pair of art critics ain't we? That is cheap What? These Which girl She worked in er What an inspection? Yeah Yeah I dunno, I dunno who she's going out with, but I've seen her, I've seen her in the car in the morning when I, like this morning I was walking in, she was in the car just getting the old , but I don't know if he works here or not, she's got to be going out with somebody. I dunno I don't stare at people then You fucking lying git don't you believe that he's To About right I think Alex, I gotta or so where's I don't know I really didn't have that much to do with it What? He is right, he Say oh Bob, how's it going? Who? Bob, how's it going? Isn't he deaf in one ear or something Yeah It sounds terrible saying that. My mum went to see that with my aunty, she said they both come out of there and they were wetting themselves, well Is this the one where, see a topless girl wobble them in the streets Is it Airplane II? Yeah. I think they showed that one Christmas or something and were watching something else and we turned over and the instant we turned over, this girl wobbled across the screen, and my mum straight away switched it back on the other side me and me brothers right in the other room watching there. Huh there, That's what I will be when I I mean we, we keep telling the old man to book the weekend holiday so we can have outrageous parties and things like that. My old man would say good bye, yeah, send the mother away I think the old man's a bit afraid to go into hospital, I know that he's afraid obviously cos of the, the, this open heart surgery sort of thing but er, he's also afraid that, he thinks were gonna have er such outrageous parties down the close and were gonna be open all night and things like that. Did, even with the few times my parents have gone away, I've never held parties, I may of had a couple of mates round just to let them kip over or something, come back I've never, ever held a party, I wouldn't, I respect them, well I mean I wouldn't respect them make, every er penny they earned in the last fifteen years gone into that house , they've had one holiday in that time and erm,gorgeous house,no its a lovely house, full of nice stuff as well, I, I, I wouldn't dare have a party Well even if you do you'd clear out the stuff Oh, I, well I never like so , even now I'm paranoid about it, its like a couple of times I don't know how I slept a wink, and these people are the people I trust because you don't want I know they won't do it on purpose, but I know, have seen what I'm Oh yeah my parents are far more worried about how at the party than the actual kids are. Yeah, its probably cos they've done it all before so, they know, they know what goes on there. I mean I'm too frightened the things what happened what you know, the stereo nicked and hooligans , every time I ask him too, he says no you ain't allowed a disco out there. . Oh well he probably doesn't trust you whipper snatchers first time I actually carried my licence with me. Oh red one, you got one then. Yeah, that come through quicker, come through in about eight days that. Is that your licence back? Yeah. Wow. All nice and sh , all nice and shiny. The colour is red and green Yeah, it . Yeah well they've had, they've erm , yeah the pink, the pink ones came in just after I passed mine. Yeah it come from , I, I wasn't expecting it to come back , it come through eight days,. That, that letter I'd written must of done the trick. I would appreciate, I put in, I appreciate, I would appreciate your co-operation . If you, if you put down the letter for people like this,sort of, I would of done one of two things, I'd would get really nark about that and the way they give you what you want They either drag their feet or so far its , so far I've been really lucky in everything I've done that too I sort of got through really quickly. Oh yeah I never sort of like give it here or else and all this power, I would state my case firmly, but then I. Yeah but its, you gotta try and give them instead of putting the law first, not Well you're the one man said you got any experience, I said no, I said well you know experience, I felt like saying fucking well how the bloody hell am I supposed to get experience when no one will take me, but I'm, I wasn't really interested in the sales work not quite You're outrageous you are, you've got to have the gift of the gab in the first place,that's just to walk into a shop or office and , my girlfriend's think that's what chain fucking great Its not a meagre expensive place, forty, fifty quid expensive enough though That could explain a lot actually See old London's Burning last night? no I missed it, it was the second part, see last weeks, but Yeah they got Bayleaf out, they the yeah One geezer died didn't he, Rocky? No, no, he's, he's, he's ok, wobbling around on crutches, it was the er, the bloke who got buried alive at they wanted him to go to er former therapy,go,slowly cracking up. You think about fucking buried alive by the wall. Yeah, Oh er, Why not Not going to do you anything to help What, what are they doing with it? There's only, they let . There was somebody working here called er Julian, he was fucking coming, coming out the pub about half past twelve, coming back in about six o'clock and then working on three don't tend to take much notice of them do they? No, really, mind you, its then there was quite a few people working . It is a bit shitty that in it? Its them that's threatened to stopping them do the overtime with . Nothing you can do about it is well out of order Yeah, to go and work. Here was that Jaws Three or Four they showed, showed on Saturday night? They haven't showed the third one have they? Yeah, I T V had it. Which one was that? That's one with the er underwater complex Oh yeah, I haven't seen the three. but there's five ain't there? made a fifth. Did they make a three d one? Yeah oh that was good weren't it? No They in the end didn't they? Does Roy Schneider appear in any more of them after two? Just two,paint after this one. I never saw them, but I saw the, the clips for it. What's he going for the world record on, for appearing in most films, or Most of the releases have got Its Zulu was the first bloke weren't it? Yeah, he's an See that last night, he was on telly before that in erm He played in Jack The Ripper Jekyll and Hyde? I can't remember the telly programme he was in something like Budgie it wasn't Budgie though. Have you seen that er Paul Hogan film I haven't watched many video's recently. I, I can remember bits of it now, but I couldn't on fucking Thursday, I mean, there's this bloke in er, they're they're doing a banking job, while doing a bank job and he still doesn't believe he's the main He is though in he? I ain't saying nothing. Yeah he is, yeah. Fucking, fire's this gun at him point blank and he goes and he stands there like this, and he, he stood there and he goes running round the corner sort of thing and then he goes he can't of missed from that fucking distance you know, and its that distance and er, in the, in the car, the mate goes, the mate sort of till he passed out, and he goes bring it to me, he goes, and its still alive,he goes , but matey in the front goes oh my he goes, I knew you'd fuck up he goes and so they're all blanks you to be Michael or something Yeah That's what makes it think to the name don't he? Oh he goes er this little girl runs to the he sees god and he can't believe that god looks like Charlton Heston, and you think Yeah, yeah I don't know what it is when he He comes up to him and he goes, you're only a trainee, and he goes this is the first time we've ever sent the scum bag back, oh, the scum bag, that's a big strong even if you are god and he, he Yeah see the or somebody like that or I yeah No good fucking me you are a Yes, its funny cos its not often we get that one, but I Its not a particularly believable film but its well funny Seen er, Weekend of Yeah, its quite an old film I've only ever seen part of it I mean where they get it rigged up and the hit man keeps coming back and he, he keeps seeing him and he's, he's walking round the place and Yeah, well funny he sits, he's sitting there like a fly squad, yeah he flies well funny, that must of taken quite a lot for that actor to play cos he gets chucked around and sort of things don't he? Yeah, I, I tell you what as well, er I don't know whether you saw him last night, it was on channel four there's erm,its called No now that is brilliant, really good, its sort of yeah, I've, I've seen it, its got the same dog as in the story teller Is it? yeah it is the story teller Yeah but its Michael Michael instead of, instead of John Hurt John Hurt The directly after that on I T V there's Dinosaur, its brilliant Oh no. its brilliant, its really good what? Dinosaur's. Fuck off Trev Yeah its brilliant the puppets are fantastic in that. fantastic it stirs up a hornets nest. Just like the Flintstones they bill it though as I T V's answers to the fucking Simpsons, that's what the billed it as early in the, early Sunday's, they says in it by er, half past five we have erm I T V's answer to the Simpsons, the Dinosaur's Oh really good, I've never seen it, so I couldn't say. did look quite good though. one year old. So you thought, you don't watch it then No. six months What the fucking hell's that? , you are now being taped for posterity and also its for the English Oxford Dictionary Ah?you're taping this? Yeah. Why? All these conversations are what they do Who? Oh yeah, you weren't here Friday was you? Its the, its for the Oxford English Dictionary, its erm, what they're doing is they're making up a Dictionary for just using everyday collocation and they Is it yours or there's? No, its there's, they're They come to work and asked or something? No, no, they came to my house yeah, bring Oxford Dictionary out, no its gonna be five quid Twenty five quid. a day A day?, fuck off. Wish it was, I could do with Yeah I could do with How many tapes have you got? Twenty. Twenty oh, This is the fifth one, B side They providing the batteries as well are they? Yep, batteries, tape the whole lot . Why who've you taped?, have you got to fill up the whole twenty? No, you don't have too, just do as many as you can. Do five and keep the rest of the tapes. Yeah Yeah, you have to give back what you don't use . Amazing how people's attitude change towards it when they learn you got getting a recorded, getting a recorded so can get a recorded contract Ah? Who? Terence hoping to be discovered or something, they say, they say er, Batteries going. Ah? Batteries going. No it ain't, picking up everything. . And they left it with you, I can't believe that. Yeah, you've got to sign for it. Yeah. What do you mean they've left it with me you cheeky little sod Have him Mark, have him. Oh, oh, have you heard about that?, for a, oh have you heard about that, people are refusing erm the Why yeah. Yeah, they are what they want is the regional fucking words, like phrases which are particular to your area, like bull shit and the No, no, you, things like alright, how you doing? I mean, in other parts of the country its hi yeah, how are you, alright and hello and stuff like that. Alright you But I mean they get a lot about Down here they get a few of that. Yeah I know that's only cos its been deported down here deported by Jonesy Its amazing how you, you came down here, but I mean duck never managed it did he? Right oh duck, what duck. One of me mum's favourite sayings was lover, alright lover, I used to hate that. One which used to be around was alright uncle how you doing. Uncle Uncle Uncle Billy What time is it, any ideas? Have we got the time fellows? Eleven twenty one That was another one of his songs weren't it, Yes I'm The Great Pretender?, Yeah. do the cover version of it oh Freddie Mercury Yeah that seems to be this situation don't it? Ah?, dunno, don't even know the words Well yes I'm The Great Pretender seems to be pretty cos he, he, said he hadn't had, didn't have Aids. Oh I, never said he didn't have Aids, but he's never, he's never said either has he?, he's never said he has or he hasn't People who knew him, knew he had Aids. Did they? All his closest friends and that Aids have claimed quite a few victims now I's, listen, erm, watching that Aids update Friday night and er, there have been five thousand reported cases of Aids out in this country, no three thousand reported Aids out in this, in this country, and in New York alone, New York City alone, there's been fifteen thousand, they reckon there's about thirty four thousand actually carrying H I V just in New York City New York I mean, I mean New York is what has, has got a London was the highest populated place in the world. Yeah. Yeah it is London William Golding, there, there were deaths weren't they? Get this bat thing, get a smash his head open Yeah Yeah,for er English literature, I think everybody has though ain't they? No I didn't. What? William Golding No. Did you watch Of Mice And Men Yeah George and Lenny Yeah Adrian Mole Brian I see it Is this for English Literature? Oh, oh Christ I like Okey cokey E I O fucking body building then ain't ya? got a bit of oil in that? Yeah David's Na, it's not David's. That'll do for that lot won't it that little bit? On the one hand he was Would you rather have a job? Nose to the grindstone time again I suppose, in a minute. When do they all come here for nothing if you get a spare trade as well with that except . Take part in a keep going for it. There's a metal tray put that in . All they do is a put a little bit on the just keeps the stuff from sticking. Doesn't really stick. it's alright though just like the old fashioned pick them up pick them up Oh get out! Right, see you later,. See you later. I'm going to get can't get no blinds but they put up with that though make a drink coffee. oi Touch my sort out the Like to think that we can afford something like this. Right carry on you chaps er we all George, er Yeah Afternoon tramp old boy! Good afternoon old boy! Well what do you reckon seen that ? Supposed to do it. Ah can't do that! You're supposed to act natural when the tape's recording, I mean but there again with I didn't know that. with that is a bit of an impossibility innit! Being as he's totally unnatural. Apart from Do you want this? Afternoon. Yeah. I wanna go to the toilet under your bench. You'll have it now. They seem to hands down. Don't go under the bench Brian! Why? What? Why? I ain't go , give me the money then? Your real mate, Stuart back or what? You calling! Don't fucking have it! Yep Yes. Alright ! Which one? Little one. Aha! Urgh! Urgh! Done any more on yet? Eh? Da da da da da da da da da da da . Who wants that? Dunno. Like where they've done that yep that it? Yeah. Ah! time ! I reckon those people'll be giving us most of their business. That's it. You what? I reckon those people'll be going up the wrong way. You what? Those people who are gonna go. Even by the time I'm rich,doing What is Well the old twen twenty usually that's what I'll do My daughter threatened to buy her something. Oh. No. When you haven't got any cash or nothing small banging in something. Here Nigel I've got some fifty pees. Brilliant! I'll let you have some. I think you better We, I generally ask Maybe, that's always the way. I could get a couple. Eh? Yeah gangland Mark. Watcha Whether you should put down in front of the wing mirror Yeah I know, I know. Brian said I could come Those fifteen's Right, are you gonna go down? Yeah. Are you alright there? Yeah Aha! Caught actually bou bouncing about on the that little we didn't Yeah? bought the wagon round, yeah I made them clear the site cos well actually it's twelve being as, they are a bit stained Oh yeah. People had the money or the shops they were on show on the that most expensive dress shop. Not bad but that shop they have er, the cheapest. Well I've never seen one shop. , it's down Hampton Court twenty four twenty pound for twelves they range from two pound for fifty odd quid. Yeah If I was gonna get one, Right. Ah oh shit! You wouldn't have to worry about them that'd solve the struggle, trouble er you got them off the Even have to have the same as one another! Just think it can't have . man I think sooner or later it's gonna become law in this country that we But you think how how cyclists must wear them. you think how many people many people didn't wanna wear helmets See a lot of Oh God! And loads of people thought it was stupid sensible. Lot of them have since That'll do. Since That's right yeah we've had it since last January Go on how many wear a helmet? It's law to wear a helmet when you're on the motorway came out last January. Oh yeah what these can't be bothered No! Tell you something. In case you smack your head. Yeah Innit? Who said Come over to my side of the room and have a Yeah but I might want a bit of help with it. About one in two wants to with a helmet on. No, sorry you're way out of line Chris! Yes. Way out of line, I don't know where you work that one out! Oh I dunno. Yeah, I'm bringing it in We've go got one. Yeah. It isn't I mean cycling magazine But bikes maybe and all th But I all the parts. Yeah but in the middle of road . It will be made law, soon. Mate, I Yeah. my bike. Yeah bu , why don't you go up close? We've already thought of that cos my bike it's not gonna help. cos my my bike Eh? ends up on the pavement. Oh. I can't . Had a hairline fracture of the skull. Why is . Yeah. So I do won't explain your broken nose though Stu, will it? Might go and get help aha! Looks like most of mine face the other way more than one. See look they can't do it. Goes like that. Two foot even in the . Fuck off! Some of them facing square although, what happens? Well ain't you allowed out? Oh yeah I'm I'm not saying that they shouldn't make a mess or like that But also I mean you can't do without a . I'm going out and all and you can't come in without , signing . Anytime, anytime. See that'd slide down and break until and then you're trouble! I think you should to do it no problem Wipe out well go without peak time I mean. And then it's your time to do it, that's all. It's about time Better get your old . Fuck off, you silly sod ! I ain't getting a yet. Don't lie . It's a bad year for They don't listen so I went outside Down here. . So why did you hit him? Well I've had this before, I was starting printing work or something and then I like . My brother's one. You practice shots. Yeah but I don't like might end up a ! Ha ha! what I mean. Yeah. Sod. It's up to the blooming restaurant. going. It means that a after policeman, it's like we're on grade three. You you being a motorcyclist as well as all of these things the helmets and causes tha that they would think like that probably the motorcycle and erm for in compulsory helmet wear. I say . Why not the same for bicycles? Dunno. Kill yourself at five miles an hour in a car I know sounds stupid! I probably wouldn't wear them. Probably kill them,on the head well would be my problem to do it see myself coming off Nobody really does. . Well yeah but tha that doesn't mean the police do it . If I drive I'd kill myself ride on the day . Police won't cos you are I'm not really stupid that's why I'm driving home. What pillion? If you like. But I wouldn't like, like car driver. Oh! Yeah I remember that, fucking thing! Do you? Yeah. And after that we kept shouting Rock on! camp,. And there was Pete's urgh! I'm really frightened to do it though, at the moment go over the The old see old beautiful legs really frightened of that . I was where He was . there was these two Yeah but what they're doing do thirty or forty then do number six and only that far away from the handle bar. Well it's a lot different from what he told me. Chance cos they went out What was he I don't know whether you told him but he himself Particularly on a right of way It's as much your right to drive ar round the way you go I used to give myself two, at least three foot away from the kerb. That . he, don't like he don't like right, I mean I still ain't paid him . He will do though right let's ride the motorway down. Alright, but I'm coming down there. Let's hope you find it, this time. I mean I won't come and do the record. On the way home Gently. we'll ride home that way Well you're taking the right steps . Gotta do seventy odd, See him ride them. Hey!what was the last time your old lady ? I mean if someone wan wants me to do it. We could walk and go and ma put down. Why? Well I hope he they're always go they're always about that far away the less gotta swerve out to avoid . He said something else riding. Ride. While he's about. Just like one of them that's why I pop out about that far away, so That's why I . You sell don't you? That's right, yeah. Cos then i I mean a couple of times I've , like I wouldn't But they've cut them well they done it again about a month ago no one could survive They'll only do it to get the get the key They'll still be is just walk straight in, it's only about eight foot deep so if I'm going forty odd there int a car bonnet. No. So if a bloke goes in the back of us er er by the bonnet, caught up with the before we start out what what . Ideally over it on my bicycle. Well what I'm saying is You ought to be . and I you're not Won't be. no you're not parked cars. I don't know what to think parked cars the of a big if I can see a parked car there a long way in front of me I go I am park that car so it so it looks as though you haven't got in. got a long way Yeah. you know if there's nothing immediately behind me,then he knows that I I ain't gonna touch his precious parked car! Yeah. All all this sort of riding off at a Le , what they say? Well I don't know but, you know Well I would ask, I got . As soon as soon as you see a parked car you should be looking to see what's behind its and there's about six policeman behind Well there are. If the before I come to go past it he would cut back in and and climb across even if if the next car then back in again you're just going, you start out of line Well I did and the thread bit on I don't do it all the time look you've got half a sense mind half a strong common sense Oh I get it. I got pull over inside then the motorbike's Yeah but you don't but you must have seen the metal nut in the front! Then he left out Yeah exactly! The way I look at it, is there anything you can do? No Stuart you come and tell come to tell me police squad I don't think how to But we said so Well yeah alright but I gotta Yeah I was just saying, let them know no where we going then? Oh I See I I Yeah but it could happen though. I don't care! Well what are you saying to prevent it? What's the point of taking driving lessons, or motorbike lessons then? It's a bit difficult. What is? And you, all day, you got some of the bits Whe when you have a cycling proficiency test Yeah. No matter what car you Better than my The rules are the same you don't say oh I can't go for a ride and I'm gonna go through announce my That is though Stuart Why? If you may sort of done it Yeah. Well it's it's kind of certain What like that ? He did it. I don't know , I would That's right that , I still don't see where Yeah I mean you want your car I wouldn't Alright, don't! Cos I ain't got time to do it do it so David's choice, it's definitely I will pass this he he should pass. But he can't see it can he, Oh God! It's Better take them back to No what I'm saying is, like, And or anything like that What're you saying! because I'm not. Don't bother to explain Wind this to er Ah no! Look I mean in actual fact, it's probably well it shouldn't be Alright. If anybody's gotta stay there. We have Say bikes to ride home or cars and Stuart. Somebody needs to Why does nobody why's there been so many accidents involving Alright Alright I there is a fucking getting killed on motorbike. Yeah,ni nine times out of ten, particularly when there's cars around it is the car driver that is at fault. I told you twenty times about that! The actual cycles Yep. you know. At the end of the day. tough luck! But I ca I can't unless you cover all summer and yet can't see the the ri bike riding down the road, driving a Would you see the I would I could. Yeah cos you're not out in the morning must of heard from here. yeah Can't see that it matters how good a driver you are , it's not always how good you are to Alright yeah, I just want and even fucking arguing ! Yeah to see . Alright. Can't do my work it's the same as before, I'm just fed up with it. Oh there! Er I mean er by jumping down come down Oh does that mean doesn't count? Yeah yep Get plenty of newspaper What? newspaper There's that woman that's the one out of Yeah and a and a and a roundabout Yeah that'll be probably be better won't it? He burnt out No them It's either that or , how about that? Yeah alright Oh! Steven's gonna get wet. Want his fucking coat back! No we'll clear as anything. all ought to have a look, didn't we? No the old bill probably . Yeah but I'm talking about going up to the gym. Yeah but it's gonna be quite boring Who you going up there with? I'm doing a favour for the old my old gran. Yeah mate That'll be forty six. No alright Si? Don't forget it! Top row behind the . Is that where ? Is that right? Oh! I ain't got no paper! Not , you know. Yeah it's not, right, I went down there cos my Yeah, that's it , yeah it's about three . Going to the mens? Yeah yeah get a bit closer . That means, we all do it, we always leave it outside the Yeah. school. Yeah I'll He said to me oh that poor old !. I'll have to carefully borrowed off him, he never looked Yeah. , check before we left brand new motor. they don't care! gotta hand in that bag, It's gone I can't. How do I know, I'll I don't know if Who's gonna be the other side of the ? Who? Chr Chr Chris. Why did he cry? He said on the one hand he was agreeing with you, right that i it doesn't matter how good a cyclist you are it's the fucking car drivers, nine times out of ten, that cause the accidents on and then, on the other hand he was saying but I don't see I I can't se ever see myself coming off you know, he's fucking stupid! I bet i , I mean I bet he's the sort of cyclist and car driver that gives the rest of us a fucking bad name! I if you drive along and a along with the attitude I'm alright, everybody else, fuck them! That's a sure fire way of an accident. I you've gotta fucking drive . And they You got and they drive you've gotta drive ah like every other cunt on the road's out to get you. I almost caused an accident coming back from Bedford yesterday, there's somebody in an X R three i right up my arse so I just coming onto the motorway, the M four to Bracknell and erm comes right up my arse and I had to come out cos there was this car coming on you know, from further up the the lane and it was coming on and I was already on, so I overtook it let it did to let it come out you know? And he flashed his lights and was right up my arse! So I I sat by the side of this other car for about five minutes you know? Doing about sixty, seventy, normal speed,in hurry to get somewhere and er I I just sat there and erm all of a sudden I I thought I was miles past this other car and I started going in, just to let him go past, obviously and he's I I didn't realise this other car was keeping up with me and I've gone towards it and I thought sh I'd looked in my mirror shit it's still there! So I just give a little bit of pedal and carried on but he was complete and utter bastard, really was! Tell you what, I notice I'm doing, I never us always used to do it I give fucking ! Still don't. Right now I will If somebody does that to me they're right up my arse and something came like that, or even just on a single carriage road, or anything I'd just touch my brake slightly I always do. Right? Yeah, yeah I always have done. Right? And then I tell you what, and even if they don't do it, I let them fucking stay there! I won't the amount of times I've I've been in a car or something, where fucking jump on the brakes! Yeah. That's fucking stupid! Alright, it may be there fault, but what happens if he fucking get out of control or then I can I always try and do it now, if somebody wants to act like a cunt, let them! Don't try and retaliate cos then if if you retaliate the chances are he's gonna be even more of a nutter retaliating harder so that gets me. Yeah. I nine times Half a mile, and he was right up my arse and I was going at a far pace forty miles an hour in a forty zone and he just got, right up my arse, he was obviously somewhere in a hurry somewhere in a hurry, you know? I thought, this off he is! Nine times out of ten . So I thought, sod you! I am not gonna move over and I am going at my own pace, so I slowed down to about twenty miles an hour and it's a road about four miles long and er he just couldn't get past, you know? Oh thes er there was oncoming traffic, just couldn't get past and I thought, fuck it! You're gonna stop behind me mate and I'm gonna do my own speed and that annoyed him more than anything else that was annoying him. But why did you try and annoy him? Alright he was not Because he was annoying me, he was right up my arse! yeah but it isn't a battle! No it isn't a battle, but it's not everybody retaliate Who who who gets the best who no but you shouldn't do that's why there's so many accidents with people retaliating. So! Course they do! But don't don't get me wrong I mean I'm not saying I'm a fucking saint, cos I've done and I'll probably do it again but But doesn't it annoy when somebody's Nine ti sitting right up your arse? About two foot Yeah. away from you? I slow right fucking down! That's what I do. Yeah. Like I said twenty miles an hour that That's a ain't it so? That's annoying you but for how long without changing your speed,I yo you don't Yeah well they speed up ! you don't annoy me it annoys them they are the ones who are behind me. Yeah but he's your doing it because it's annoying you though. Oh no I I, I find it highly amusing that they're getting fucking flustered behind me. You just said you did it because them up your arse, it irritates you. Oh yeah, that irritates me but, I mean it's gonna it's gonna make them think again innit? Well they they don't have to sit right up your arse, on your tail. Course it would. Yeah course it fucking would! Like I said, nine out of ten if I touch my brakes they'll drop back and if they don't then there ain't nothing I'm gonna do that's gonna make them drop back. Well there's plenty of things you can do to make them drop back. Yeah, stupid things! Like slam on your brakes or going slow! If you're doing twenty in a forty and a copper comes along and pulls both of you, it's gonna be you that gets fucking done, not him! There's no law saying he can't be be an inch up your arse, as long as he don't hit you If you're doing if you're doing Why why why is he speed if you're doing it in a Why is if you're doing I'm doing under twenty miles an hour. But, have you ever heard of an ob obstructive speed? If you're, if you're No. if you're obstructing the flow of traffic by doing twenty in a forty or fifteen in a thirty then they can, by law, do you. But like I said if it if you, if you do that then it's for them and for yourself but them being up your arse is irritating if you just fucking carry on as if nothing had happened, but you're aware of the th them doing that then I think it's a fucking I've that's a psychological edge over them anyway it's just the personalities obviously, but er How can it be a psychological though? Cos they they they've obviously not made sense to realise that, a dog might run out in front of you but you're doing sixty in a in a sixty zone and forty in a forty zone you're gonna have to slam on your anyway so it's them gonna be stupid, it's not you being Yeah. stupid. That's what I'm saying so there's no psychological over Cos if if you show them that we're not, they're not getting at you. Yeah, that's right, they ain't getting at me, I'm getting at them I'm annoying them No they're can't you see by retaliating, they are getting at you but if they hadn't of got to you, you wouldn't of retaliated Like if I,i i it's like if I Yeah but seen that, yeah come up and insult you if it doesn't bother you, you won't say a thing, but if it does bother you'll come back and re say something back. Yeah. Exactly! So if you don't react at all I ca I can't get out of that car and say, you're a fucking wanker I co the only way I could do, the only way No yeah, but well the only way that I can retaliate, towards him, to show him my cracking up there. Don't you see by ha don't you see by not retaliating, you're already showing us something it's just a personal opinion I have I've it's like, I dunno if you have the se erm i if people are taking the mickey out of you, ignore them. Yeah, that's right. The same thing, if somebody's annoying you like that, ignore them like I said, I don't mean I won't just let them sit there I'll touch my brakes a couple of times perhaps do the old bit with the mirror and like I said, normally if they're if they're responsible drivers that have just happened, they got a bit close then maybe they'll drop back as I've done No see nine times out of ten but they're fucking wankers! But they are wank that But you know but if they are wankers nothing you do, and including, I mean I've done it in the past, slowed right down and nine times out of ten it jus it just incenses them to drive even closer. Yeah, exactly and tha that's when you slam your anchors on and they're in the fucking wall! But you've caused an accident! Yeah as simple as that, yeah, I mean you've caused an accident So you soo but been driver No, cos I haven't caused an accident because they, are in the wrong anybody that gets, anybody else up the arse no matter what you fucking did to them, it's them wrong. I know that, I know that Mark. But you would rather go through all the hassle and the dam of having the damage repaired to your car Yeah. and all this, just for the sake over a bit of retaliation? No I wouldn't go as far as that anyway but I'm saying they're in the wrong it's not you in the wrong, they're in There is the . there is no law saying that they can't drive that close to you you're advised against it. Yeah, exactly and then it's their their But then again yo you're you're advised against going over the speed limit that most people do, I do I I tell yo like I said I'm not a saint cos like a couple of times when I was first driving, especially in my fucking sprint cos it was a quick car I used to drive up people's arses and wait until I could overtake them and if they did slow down that used to incense me and I'd fucking, I'd go right up there arse and then probably try and cut them up when I went, overtook them and I s fucking learnt, I got a I had a couple of close calls like, people are slamming brakes on and stuff Yeah. and, I didn't so much I just thought that it happened to me I think you should get a couple of times, you know, people were up my arse a couple of times and I retaliated a couple of times I think that it's that's very very rude! Bad driving! Oh yeah but can That somebody should be right up your arse, so if you Oh it's not good that driving, no I'm not that, that saying that. that's the way I look at it and But you can't you see that you you just show them something to back off, as you say and my way of doing that is slow down and then nine times out of ten once they've got the hint, well I'll sp speed it up again. Like I said, I've slowed down in the past for people like that and they haven't you know I don't think that Well if they don't , then you slow right down again simple as that. So that's affecting your journey! No it isn't! Not really my i idea of a journey is to get there in your own time, you don't have to fucking speed everywhere! I don't speed everywhere! it's better than fucking better be being late than not being there at all. Can't you that by retaliating yo No I can't you're interrupting your own journey as well. No I can't sorry you're on the lost cause here. Obviously! I mean don't get me wrong If so if somebody is a bad enough driver to sit right up your arse, three foot away from you then they deserve all they fucking get! Simple as that. But I, I do agree with you slowing down probably does annoy them more than anything else you could do Yep. but then again I'd rather just let them get on with it I'm not trying to convert you to the better way of doing things, cos obviously I don't know a whether there's There no fucking better way of doing things, is there? But I do if you listen Just that it's different way of dealing with it. If you listened Mark without interrupting, I was just about to say I'm not trying to convert into a better way of doing things because obviously I don't know whether that's a different, a better way of doing it, what I said It's a just a It's a stu different way of doing things. Alright, yeah. Yeah but you interrupted! Yeah, exactly cos there's not a better way of doing as far as I'm concerned. No if you listened I wasn't gonna say that! This is why you and Chris are so alike, you won't let anybody fucking finish what they're gonna say! You just jump in half-cocked, and get the wrong idea of the argument then I was just about to say to you that isn't the better way of doing things, cos obviously neither of us knows that way it's just a different way and it was just a a matter of opinion so I mean at the end of the day it doesn't really make no odds, as long as I'm not the bloke you're doing it to! But then again I wouldn't be up tha far up your arse I mean, like you sa , you must have found yourself a couple of times getting close to somebody and without realising it and then they Yeah. maybe touch the brakes, and you back off, yeah. No no I I don't do that i I I I get to within about ten feet, on the motorway, or twenty feet on the motorway and that's about as close as I get. That's still too close. Oh yeah, it's too close But don't Ah you, don't you mean sometimes they touch they're brakes I mean as I as I get a and you realise, ooh shit, I'm a bit too close here, back off! No as as I'm going towards them I start touching my brakes anyway, Yeah. and I don't give any of this shit with lights If they're doing seventy miles an hour, and I'm going faster and they're, all the overtaking lanes are taken, then I'll slow down to their speed, I won't Yeah. attempt to go past No I'm not I'm not saying that,hav haven't you found yourself a couple of times, not really so much on the motorway at all you just No not really you just find yourself up someone's arse without realising it. Not unless I'm doing it deliberately. No I know. About fifteen, twenty foot all the time. That's too close. No it's not they reckon you should leave a two second gap if yo , if you're travelling at thirty, forty miles an hour. Here, have you got your erm highway code here? What are the braking distances you know? Three seventy five a hundred thirty five . Seventy five innit? What thirty? Say thirty. Thirty is seventy five. Yeah, four foot. So it's thirty by seventy five alright by is thirty five . In which case fifteen or twenty foot is far too close. Okay, it's too close but how many, how many cars travel any further than that apart? I certainly do. Oh right. And tha that is one thing I'm, I mean I'm not I'm not the best driver in the world, but that is one thing I do try not to do cos as you say no matter what the circumstances are, if I go up the back of somebody it is my fault. Yeah, exactly!the back of too many fucking cars! And you still s dri driving fifteen or twenty foot away. Eh well that was just a fucking example! Well I mean I, yeah alright. I d I don't know how Yeah. far I drive away from them it could it could be twe But you would, you think it's enough though? it could be twenty foot, it could be thirty foot, it could be forty foot how, how ca how far can you tell? All I know is that I think it's a safe distance for me to drive behind that car at any given time. Yeah. And the only way you can do that is when you judge when you know tha your car. Mm. What's that? I said what really bugs me is when I'm driving and you come from behind somebody and then somebody overtakes you and . Yep. Yeah they come right up Yeah but mind you then cut past . All I know bibbing I'd your horn and cut him up a bit. Yeah. Then when he stops, get out the car and grab him by the neck then throw then I . . Fucking been talking! There you go Alright excuse me going on the road Didn't realise you'd got the shafts again now. Eh? Didn't realise we got the shafts again now. We haven't have we? I think. Oh right. I'd just had enough of them so I was gonna do them when we got the shafts, like then I see what you do. Yeah. and I really thought you'd got the shafts in. Oh that's dodgy that is! I'd rather do them again dislike them. It's just at an inch this innit Mark? Eh? About an inch deep. Yeah,. Another Terence special! Don't forget to put the old inserts in as well. Yeah. After Christmas we won't have any work, but we'll have plenty of spare benches in, we'll be laughing! Spread ourselves around a bit. Why who else is going? Got Stuart and Alec. Actually that'll be quite good cos you won't be on anybody's bench wherever vi Me thinks me hath sharpened up my blade too much! Well if I can, it's the wrong bloody head! That's alright. Ha I'm just glad I don't juggle with chain sa , chain saws! Chain saws. They reckon there's somebody in the States that does, isn't there? Yeah. There is yeah. There is. He was on erm oh what's that ventriloquist, Ron show Yeah. That's right yeah one weekend. my son's seen it, yeah. Yeah, bloody three of them going! One slip and you're in the cacky aren't you? Your mate would be dead if he did that! I just can't imagine how you could rhythm if it's like that I suppose you gotta s start with them all running but still Yeah. No way! They're quite large as well, weren't they? They're about foot and a half blades on them. No way! I can't even juggle three Might even be Ever tried juggling, beyond three? You can't do it, I tell you. erm what's his name, the er Yeah, yeah. He used to be able to do it didn't he, old tap tap? Yeah that's right. Er what was his name? Mick. Mick Metal Mickey. Metal Mickey. Ah does he have Can't now,? No it was. It got did he? Yeah he got moved out. Mick Mick. Worked in the part the pioneer cord, little Yorkshire fellow. Vince. worked out . What did he do? Japanese one . Oi! I I've spent a fiver on . I said bou bought a Proton motor car and took Yeah and about ten Bought a Jap. walk back to the car lot! He jacked it in for something different did got about two hundred , yeah. Yeah. Yeah it's cabriolet . I see, And that and that. Not Mick was it? No. isn't it? No Mick was one of the the brothers weren't he? Pete Mick . What's his name?can't remember fucking name! Who? Victor? That's all everybody only called him anyway wannit? It's for that thing. Wanna know the regional accents as well Oh and all that sort of shit. well I only lived in London for about six months. I mean I've lived in here for the last fourtee thirteen years and I've lived in Northern Ireland and Bradford and all sorts. So I You're a right mixed up fucker. Yeah, well I was an army kid wasn't I? So we went all over the place. Yeah. How long have you been down then? Down here? Yeah. Lived in Farnborough for thirteen thirteen fourteen years now. I would have thought so. It's probably where I've picked most of it up. My accent's certainly changed since I've been down here. Yeah. Apparently I used to talk a bit like a thick northernish Sandhurst Sandhurst. A Berks Berks boy. Born in Reading, lived Berkshire boy. You lived in boy's town? College town. Oh college town. So that probably explains a few things. No no Self circumcision. You'd probably charge me for it as well wouldn't you? Only if I can kneecap first. That would probably solve a lot of problems actually. Yeah? Got water on the knee? Thanks very much. Oh my life. It is isn't it? gotta go the other way Yeah I know. get the hump then. I told you, don't take any notice of him. The only ones he's ever done was bodge it and scarper himself so What? Your idea of bodge it . Bodging. Where's that screw gone now? Alright old boy? Wotcha. Fancy a bit of the old er pop groups you know? Video ? Hello No I'm busy you. Don't try and drag us away down with your slipshod ways. We're already there. . Don't need dragging down, we're already there. I said don't try and drag us down with your slipshod ways. You two'd stick together even if you didn't agree wouldn't you? I do know I'm you inform me every five minutes. If I had a little money in a rich man's world . Pretty woman walking down the street . Pardon me. To Las Vegas or Monaco da da da money money money funny in a rich man's world . Don't know why I'm singing that I don't even like . Don't like Abba? Erm What the fuck is up with you? I dunno I'd I'd probably listen to it but I'd I've never gone out and bought any of them. No I haven't. Not . They're back in the charts . Are they? Have you seen that piss take group? The Aussie piss take group born again? Bjorn Again . The Aussie piss take group out of Abba. They're like erm they they've got they've all got funny, it's, do you know like the Asterix names and that? Yeah. They've all got it's like that but it's Swedish. Like the they're names are Swedish sounding but if you put them together like an Asterix book they they sound like something else. And they sing all, they sing all the songs and that. It's just a piss take group. They dress like them and they look like them, they sing like them. Cor, if they look like erm Agnetha cor! Yeah. Blond one. Blond one. She does actually. Well she doesn't Fucking gorgeous. I mean not brilliantly but she's a well tasty bitch whoever does it. She used to be absolutely gorgeous. And the darker, the er redhead woman as well. Mm. Many a schoolboy fantasy. Yeah they used to wear like really fucking short dresses and jumpsuits and stuff open to their navel didn't they? Yeah. I remember it well . That's another perv. No you're talking to the original perv here. The Pans People era. You must remember Pans Pans People? Only in lust filled dreams mate. No I li I sort of, yeah sort of remember them. I I can't I mi , who was the last dancers they had on Top of the Pops? I can't even really remember them very well. That was a whi , long time ago wasn't it? Yeah. Oh gawd. Legs was it or something? Yeah something like that. Legs and Co. Legs and Co. They were the last ones. That was er must be about eight nine years ago. Oh it was more than that I should think. Yeah? Probably is. Yeah I'm much must have been only a very young teenager. Thirteen fourteen. Well, ten years ago I would have been twelve but What now old boy? Hey ya . Ten years ago you were leaving school weren't you? No. I never left school till I was fifteen. Oh right. Sixteen actually. Right, nine years ago. all over the fucking place . Might as well get rid of that. As much good as a fucking chocolate ashtray. Do the walk of love . Er has anyone got a pencil sharpener? No it's alright, here you are . Do you know when they won the Eurovision Song Contest? Yeah. Were they singing for Sweden? Yeah. They were. Waterloo I was defeated you won the war . Oh shit Mark remembers. I remember watching that as well. I can only just remember Bucks Fizz. That was a long time ago as well. Cor yeah. You know what won them that? It was when they fucking They was taking those skirts . Yeah. Yeah. And they whipped the the skirts off. Because they were both nice women weren't they? Yeah. Cheryl Cheryl Baker and Oh god the other one left didn't she? Yeah. Quite, quite a bit of disgrace actually cos she was having an affair with er the tour manager wasn't she? Something like that. And they were both, weren't he married or something? Yeah. I thought she was the tasty one as well. Cor yeah. Shorter but prettier. Shelley Preston? Yeah. That rings a bell. Shelley something. Shelley certainly rings a bell. Excuse me. Yeah they went into an upbeat time didn't they? They ripped loads of people off. Yeah. Actually they they were quite good. They weren't bad anyway. Oh I I would certainly reckon that was the best song on there for two or three years. And, and after as well. Oh I don't know, there was some fucking that that German one which won it, erm what was her name? Nina. Erm Oh the one that sung in English and German and Spanish and French and Italian? Yeah, right at the end. That was fucking brilliant. I didn't like the song but I must admit I thought it was quite clever. It was brilliant. That's the first time I've ever seen that done. Or ever saw it done on the Eurovision. Yeah as I say I didn't like the song but I, that was well clever. Oh I dunno, it got to number one. Europe wide didn't it? Yeah. I know I still didn't like it. It got to number one here. Yeah I thought it was pretty good. No, it wasn't really my cup of tea . But yeah it was well she, what did she, she sung in English and German Spanish and French She went right round. She did the Yeah. the whole European countries. I think she I think she did about eight or nine European countries didn't she? Yeah. I think the only one she missed was Turkish . Cos that the year they won that was the first year that what was it erm Turkey hadn't finished last or something weren't it? No, who was it? Finland got zero points. Oh that's right. Finland yeah. Poor old Finland they never seemed to get many points did they? The the the the trouble is he got more recognition for that for getting no points at all than he did probably if he'd have bloody won that thing. The the trouble is though their their erm language just doesn't lend itself very well to pop music does it? Well no they're the thing is with the European Song Contest each different country has its own tendency, has its own leanings towards different types of material. I mean no no erm Yeah and you're you're own judge can't vote for yourself can you? Yeah. That's it. I mean That's why matey never got any points. Cos nobody else liked Finland or something. But didn't they get that, get that I mean they y you for two or three years though? You you think about, yeah. Two or three times Finland got Three times on the trot. Finland got no points. And it was the same bloke each time. Was it? Yeah. Was he the was he the only singer- songwriter in the country or something then? Something like that. That must have been the only man ever to get no points three times in a row. They have had some crap win it though. Been a couple of good ones though. Yeah. Well there has been like Puppet on a Chain. erm But who was that Johnny Logan. He was good. Yeah. That was a nice song. We've won it a couple of times haven't we? Won it about six times. Have we? Yeah. Didn't realize we'd won it that many. Erm Bucks Fizz er The only ones, it was Petula Clark and Bucks Fizz the ones I know. Eh? Petula Clark and Bucks Fizz are the ones I remember? Petula Clark, Lulu. Erm Really? Er What did she sing? Oh god Er Mary Hopkins Is that what she sung? Erm no no. Er Puppet on a String was er No it was Petula Clark weren't it? No. Mary Hopkins. Erm Who sung what did Petula Clark sing? I can only remember those two. Er save all your kisses for Brotherhood of Man. Brotherhood of Man yeah, that's true. Erm That was a number one for years wasn't it? What you done now Trev? Nothing. He's just trying to take the grease out of his fingers. Erm erm erm erm erm erm erm Cliff Richards won it once. No, he was a professional though. He wou , which wouldn't be allowed to enter. Yes. It was. Thought only non-professionals were allowed to enter? No, there's loads of them. Really, as I said, really Say hey girl take a walk on the wild side . Yeah but I thought in the case of like Petula Clark and Lulu it was because they won it that got them into the scene sort of thing. Certainly did for Bucks Fizz didn't it? They Yeah. released an album on the strength of that song. Oh! Fuck me, he is in. Course. Ooh. Bloody hell. Hallo Damian. How the devil are you? Hallo mate. Not too bad. How much is did you have to pay extra on this? Yeah. I didn't get mine with Tech I didn't buy Technics . No? They were eighty quid. Eighty quid are they? Yeah. Cos they're virtually the third best going anyway . I I've heard quite good things . Sony. I could have got but they were seventy quid. I didn't mind paying that sort of money but after spending so much on the Technics I couldn't afford another eighty quid You going home? Yeah I I might go and treat myself to some today. Cos they've got see I don't know whether I don't know whether it makes it Hemmings hey've got nought percent disc er interest and all that sort of stuff on every single thing Yeah. so I'm gonna see if they've got Cos you can pay it off in ten monthly instalments you see so eight quid a month sort of thing. No I might just go an see what sort of deal I can get. Yeah. Cos I've been meaning to get myself some. does it round about fifty quid. But if you've got a decent Technics he said you want the best integrated Yeah I might, I mean I might I might go in the best ones I can get. Say I've got a . I'm not I'm not overly fussed about this five C D carousel. But it's good, don't get me wrong, it is well well but I really don't think you need it. Cos I, I mean I tend to change my mind about I'll be listening half way through a song and then get pissed get pissed off with the album and go and Yeah I know . change it. And nine times out of, alright say I've got another four choices but nine times out of ten I'll go and I will have put those four on, in the mood that I'm sort of feeling then I'll fucking, I want to listen to something completely different. listen to The Jam I might want to go and listen to fucking bit of heavy rock or something or bit of pop or something you know? Yeah. So I don't think I've ever I've had it for about eight months now and I don't think I've yet listened to all five in a row without changing it. Mine's just the one C D. Yeah. The only trouble is with that, if you're changing it for different albums all the time it can wear out the gears and that . That's the only trouble, cos I'm always changing the damn thing. Well maybe it is a good thing, yeah. Cos all I have to do is . Cos you I I quite like the idea of these double ones you see don't they? What? The the double tray ones. No. My auntie's got one Don't think Tech I think Pioneer do them don't they? Yeah, and Sharp. My auntie's got one which takes six discs in a little box like that. It flips out with six discs in it . Yeah. Which that is a good idea cos erm if you get bored with one song or one album you just click it and it goes to that . But I have to keep changing it. carousel as well Yeah. but like I said nine times out of ten if I've got pissed off with an album I change all of them. Just have a and I I don't listen to that lot then. It's well flash though, it really is. It's like I said you you can lift up the cover and change four while one's playing. It's only the one that's got like the bit over the top of it. What's this? A Technics carousel for the C D. It's like five C D's in Two of me uncles have got one stacking system without the put in a cassette or a cartridge type allowed six. Yeah. And it just ch shoots one in. Yeah. I must admit I quite like these little mini systems, they're well powerful. I can't stand them. Really? I don't like them at all. Oh I think they're quite good. Cos I've got I've got There's no turntable though. Yeah I know, well I haven't got a turntable with mine but Do you remember Andy ? Tubby, worked out there. He had about three thousand pounds worth of C D in his car. Yeah. What, one of those ten the one you put in the boot? Fucking amazing it was. He'd say he'd give you Gotta fill it up with ten C D's and you just got he give like a little pad in your car. Yeah he give give me a booklet and they get a little booklet with it. And he'd say just take a look through he said just any one you want he said and I'll programme it that'll come straight through and he sort of s six speakers fucking ridiculous. What car did he have? Only an A M . Citroen A, top of the range Citroen A M . Cos I went to this kit car show and they had erm Absolutely fucking beautiful motor though. anyway not unless music coming out. No. I was gonna say cos if he's got that, that much it's probably more, more than the car's worth. They had this, they had this A T Cobra Yeah it's about, no it's about fourteen fifteen grand kit car right?and they had, it was a V twelve jag engine in it right? Under the bonnet, and it was fucking, it was it was the best kit there. It won, it won the best kit car and this was at the national show so you imagine how good this thing was. Mm. And in the boot it had one of these things. And all it's got, just on the little armrest was like a little pack like that. And it could programme everything on it, just in that pack, the radio and everything. Yeah? Fucking well . And I saw come just over the top of the doors as well. All nicely trimmed, oh it was immaculate, all chrome roll bars, chrome bits at the front. . Fucking good car. And he started it up V twelve jag engine . I nearly fucking I was that excited with this car. It was fucking great. But I mean if I had enough money to do it, like that's the kit I'd do. Yeah. Cos I've I've thought about a kit before but for the money I've got I couldn't do what I really wanted. But if I had the money this is the car I'd do. And I've Well you've only got five pence so it don't allow you to fucking do That's right. Doesn't even spend on the Airfix paint. And I I thought the only ones I've ever seen and they've got like things like three eight and Chevvy or maybe a V er . And they're all nice engines but there is nothing that will ever get anywhere near the V twelve . They're just pure fucking power and it's it's He'd sit there and vroom Bit like me really. Just pure pure power. Been dreaming again boy. No this was fucking . Actually you remind me of my fucking Triumph Sleek looks. at the moment Mark. Firing on two cylinders. Ha ha ha ha ha. That nose of yours is really No, my car's are alright at the moment actually. I've put it in the paper this week again. Have you? How much have you got it in for? Five fifty. Oh. How much are you hoping to get? Four fifty. I I I'd take a drop of a hundred, yeah. Thing is I, I actually think it's worth fi about five hundred. Cos they're not gonna get a brilliant car but they're certainly gonna get an alright one. Yeah, but your fucking biased aren't you? No I mean, the thing is I, all I wanna do is get rid of this fucking thing now. It's been sitting outside my house for over a month. And it's got an immaculate interior it's got an immaculate interior right? It's got average mileage for the, well below average mileage for the year. It's got an M O T, tax two new wheels on the back erm it's got an alright engine. There's nothing wrong with it. Er the bodywork's not brilliant but for a B reg car it's alright. Who do you reckon this cheap ? It's gotta go on age really. It's They're all as bad as each other. How many miles has it done? How many what? Miles has my car done? Ninety seven thousand. Original engine? Er no. Had er had erm er Rekcon. Rekcon at about twenty thousand ago. So it's only done twenty thousand miles No it's not full, it was just bits and bobs. It's a proper V L arts and stuff. It's not one of these Goldseal or anything. So it's not the original engine? Yeah. It is the original engine in the original car. It's just had bits and bobs added. Like well it it's had it's had enough added to it a recon, but not enough added so it's a new engine. It's had well I think it's had a short engine rather than the whole lot. It's a it's a good engine. I've never had any problems with it. The only problems I've ever had with it was the fucking n erm that thingie I had weren't it? The er what was it when you called out the A A? That was the starter weren't it? The er accelerator . . Put it, put it over there mate. Give it to me, I'm in charge. Well Should have those this week right? I've given the two to Jim as well together so Right. Mark is doing them. Going over for inspection Then hopefully they're going on to Yeah. Well we had a few problems didn't we? No, no problem. We're going straight Well you've had your hands on all of them now so it's probably highly likely. Fucking hell! I'd shut up if I was him. Yeah I was I was gonna say He helped me. He helped me fuck them up. No. Where were you born? Just fucking tell me now. He's got, he wants to know that dialect thing doesn't he? He wants to know regional dialects and stuff for this thing he's taping. London? Not Battersea Park. Battersea dog's home! Saint Thomas's? No. Saint Mary's I think. Something like that. Who? Saint Mary's. Saint Mary's. Something like that I think. Yeah. That rings a bell somewhere. Somewhere, somewhere . Somewhere in London . There's a there's a few of them around in London. I mean. Not Saint Mary's. There's a few fucking saints in London yeah? Well there was for six months. dialect sorry? There was for six months when I was there. Regional accents. I was only born there and I lived there for about six months and then got taken out. Couldn't handle that any more. Yeah we know about you. I was such a party animal at the So fuck age of six months that they couldn't handle me any more. No it's they wanna know regional dial dialects. We got moved on to Crete. The Oxford English Dictionary old man. They're doing a Doing a conversational dictionary. Everyday common or garden speech. So there's swear words in there, farts burps. We love you Chelsea we do Especially that sort of thing in there. Guess who that's from? We've got a few er right conversations with Barry as well, slagging off the management so er we're gonna use that for blackmail. Blackmail. But that's an ugly ugly word. We like to think of it as extortion don't we? Yeah. It's a much nicer word. It's longer, it makes me feel educated as well dunnit? Shut up . Oh dear. He's been going on all day old boy. Well fucking hell! There's him that says that and you can't get a fucking wor word in edgeways when he starts yattering. You can speak now. Have you had a you've had a done ain't you? Yeah. I was gonna say I was gonna have the er top one off cos I was jealous. I was only like that. No, I was too late now. They've already had them. I'll give it a go matey, it'll come off. Halfway down Yeah. Fucking take it all off if you like. Don't worry me. the fucking thing in a week. Now now Mark. There you are Mark, are you gonna do that? What? I'm gonna tell you what come the twelfth right anything I don't want damaged I'm taking home and locking up. Why? I'm taking me chair home. Because with Mark and that the amount of practical jokes we we've been playing anyway I can see fucking saw, our legs being sawn off chairs and stuff. So I'm I'm taking anything I don't want damaged home I think the night before and then bringing it back next Monday. I'll have to stand up all day Friday Oh no, that's too much hassle. Well I'll just get a jig sit on it. Cos I can see a lot of fucking shit happening. last Friday What Friday? Friday the thirteenth everyone's sort of leaving. Eh? Can see a lot of practical jokes being played. Like saws and erm legs being Eh? Well I'll get mine out. It's going in my kitchen. afford to chuck away good stuff. Just give it a bit of a paint and it'll be well away. Eh you? Oi oi Oh god hurry up with the beer . Have you got their new album. That's good as well. It's a good album. See the video to that? It's a good album actually. I wanna get hold of Chris Rea's album. couple of his songs but his albums. Auberge is supposed to be a quite good one. Like, that's his most recent one innit? Yeah he's got Auberge Road to Hell Road to Hell one and two. Yeah that's supposed to be quite good. I said I've liked I've liked most songs he's put out I've just never had an al bought an album or anything. But that er Anybody watch The Word the other night? No. That fucking Christian ate, he's a right wanker isn't he? He can't interview anybody to save his life. He's quite a cool trendy dude and all that but Yes. he can't interview anybody. No. What's this new woman like? Oh her blond bird. She's hot mate. Yes yes yes yes. Is she really. I ain't seen this series I just sort of remember from the last series. I didn't act I didn't actually mean from erm the sexual point of view. I wondered what she was like on the programme, you know? She's alright. Is De Cadenet till on it? Who? Amanda De Cadenet or has she left now? Think she's left. There's only those two. Yeah it's great ain't they? Great. And he had this Did did you see it a couple of weeks ago where No, I've never seen it. where where they stuck things on their head and he goes I know if I if I if I stick a a pot Yeah he goes I'm I'm pot on his head on my head you can call me Normal Lamont. And he sticks a pot on his head and everybody goes where's Norman? And sticks a pot on his head. Ah there he is! Was it you probably won't believe this but I've never seen a programme of Spitting Image. Never? Never. Better start fucking watching . The only is that bloke who's on the ten o'clock news I've seen the odd snip of it like on telly, but I've never actually seen a programme. Couple of weeks ago they were going on about erm Essex. Singing a song on Essex is crap, and all this lark. And that nigger bloke comes in who does the ten o'clock news he goes to all these people who live in Essex, we're very sorry that you have to take up this very abusive language and this sort of shit. And comes on you have to admit though, you are fucking crap, ooh . Taking the piss out of old Arnie. Oh yeah. And his little willie. Yes, yeah. Who's got a little willie? Not me. Massive. Fucking hell! I didn't realize I had to I just filled up watch London's Burning? No, I can't stand that. I say I saw the very first film of it London's Burning. I I've only ever seen the first film of it. make a regular appointment to watch I don't stay in to watch it and end up taping it. I watch I'll probably watch about half an hour tonight, an hour tomorrow night. There's nothing really though that I would I want to see other than American football. I tape that Yeah Minder yeah yeah yeah. Yeah I know I watch the first one video fucked up. . Taped every one of that. just on a Sunday afternoon now. Merlin or something. Was it on last night? Saturday weren't it? It's a repeat of the very very very old Gonna say, yeah Which one was it about er? Christmas one I wanna see, they get killed off. Yeah. They get killed off. They get killed? some sort of drug or something Yeah. and get killed off. Do they? Yeah. Get killed off? Yeah. That was another programme which I, I've always thought was alright. I've never bothered I've never really taken that much of an interest Only Fools and Horses Specially where specially where they had the baby Yeah. Damien. Damien, and that fucking music The way he was looking at it right at the end when he's looking back at him and he It cracks me up but it's not something I'd That and Minder are definitely I never saw any of the new Minder. I thought that new geezer was alright really. Yeah. Well if B B C one get it Yeah Yeah they'll bring Terry back. Will they? Yeah. If they get it. Cos I T V . Yeah. Yeah I know that, but why will they bring Terry ? I thought that one got good ratings. Cos they haven't What, Minder? actually tried to replace him have they. Yeah. Oh I think. Oh it used to crack me up. Cos the character was so obnoxious. You hardly see Kirstie Alley in it, she's only forty five minutes and that's it. It's all you ever see of her though. Yeah. She gets paid a fortune for that as well. Yeah. fucking made me cringe, that story. Because of the mother in it. with erm you ever seen that? Yeah. Language Timothy. Who's the little gi erm Ronnie Corbett. Yeah. Ronnie Corbett. He had that really overpowering mother. Marvellous. He was about forty three years old and living at home and his mother was like well wrap up warm now Yeah I know what you mean. I tell you what, that was so ooh you wanted to kill her. Wound me up that mother. The only thing that er the only two characters that really wind me up Mrs Mangle from Neighbours That's Dorothy Cotton. She fucking gets on my tits. Old Mangle doesn't wind me up as much as this this other one one with glasses. Dorothy. Yeah this one winds me up more than Mangle . I mean how could she have a son like Joe? I mean that, that is absolutely totally unbelievable innit? I mean Joe, Joe's Joe's so Joe's so easy going isn't he? He's unbelievable. And he's got an old dragon of a mother. Joe Mangle. Has he has he left the series for good? Yeah. No, cos he gets married to Melanie. Melanie? Yeah. Who does? I thought she'd left? Joe Mangle. I thought she left? It is, it was in a magazine. You sure? Yeah. It ain't to do with Melanie, I'm sure it ain't. with her donkey laugh. I thought she'd left. How old's she supposed to be? Eighteen Stay on there you bastard. They've all walked out on poor Paul. Eh? Who have? The girls. Have they? They were well tasty. I and that Jane when she was in it. Just cos you've messed up your practical your your personal life it don't mean you have to take it out on the rest of us. So wha who and he started getting all those carry on like that all one at a time they walk out. Ha ha. Jim's son. Paul Robinson. Robinson. They're on about Neighbours. And here's to you Paul Robinson . Home and Away mate. Yeah, I watch that and all. I used to. How's old ha has she erm She's changed. Different character. Yeah, she's changed. No has she She changed ages ago. Yeah I know. yet? I dunno, I've missed . I've missed . Cos I've seen that bird in something else as well. Who's that? Rachel. Let's face it, they've all been in something else. If you watch Prisoner ninety, ninety percent of er of the actors have been seen in Prisoner. Been in Neighbours. There was some, who was Paul's father? He used to be in erm Jim. Young Doctors didn't he? Eh? Yeah. He was in Young Doctors. Yeah, Jim Robinson. Curly hair. Yeah. Yeah? Paul Robinson was in er Prisoner Cell Block H. Was he? Shane in Neighbours was in the Flying Doctor . Yeah. So was , so's Harold. Yeah. Henry's in er Home and Away, instead of Neighbours. Was. Still in it. The thing is you've gotta feel sorry for these Aussie's haven't you? Cos that's their idea of culture. Don't seem to do too bad out of it. I mean we've got real upmarket programmes like Coronation Street. Coronation Street. Eastenders. And Brookside. Crossroads a few years ago. Oh my life! Don't blaspheme. Emmerdale Farm. Emmerdale Farm is not bad. Rather like Emmerdale Farm. The Bill. The Bill's good. Is there one of the one of the women in Emmerdale Farm getting raped or something soon? That was ages ago. That was Cathy. Oh was it? That was ages ago. Yeah. She's married she married the bloke who raped her as well. She did what? No it's a fairly normal sort of thing in everyday life really isn't it? She married the bloke who raped her? No, it is it is up in Yorkshire Barry. Happens all the time! Haven't you ever heard about it? It's not unusual old boy, it's only a fucking T V programme Yeah but they No they don't! Oh yes they do. At the end of the day old boy, at the end of the day The only reason that I'm enjoying Neighbours again at the moment is that I haven't seen it for month and I'm trying to work out which characters have changed, which characters are getting married to which other ones. Who's just divorced who. Do you ever watch the very first series? No? Yeah. I did. I got right into it the first couple of series. Oh I did. The first time I ever watched it Daphne. Yeah, when she came a stripper. When I when I, no. Yeah. First series when she moved in the street. Yeah, she was a stripper originally wasn't she? Yeah. Did you see ? Yeah I saw I remember old plain Jane when her transformation Yeah. I saw it when she had somebody prowling round her house and that . She was outside in the garage The amount of crappy car accidents happening in that fucking Neighbours. It must be the most emotionally unstable province in the world, that. Yeah,. Terri there's always divorces going on. Break ups in marriages, break up in boyfriends and girlfriends. That don't happen in real life. And that's I mean Jason and Kylie getting married at the age of seventeen or something and then like two months later getting and one of them moving to Tasmania. Well that was Joe er Henry or something weren't it? And every time they get brought back it's a different character or a different actor playing the character. What's that little girl's name? Er Lucy. Yeah, she come back as a bloody well, thirteen year old was a five year old and she come back Cor yeah! She came back rather cor! as a thirteen year old. Yeah I was gonna say, she went away as a little kid Yeah. and come back as a bloody teenager with big tits and everything. With, with threepennies. She didn't have threepennies, she had pounds, I tell you. I remember old Clive when he was first there Yeah. that was fucking brilliant. Oh jeez. And Melanie's laugh! Oh! Clive Gibbons. Actually he made a return a couple of months back didn't he? Yeah, he made a return not so long ago. What was his name? Who? Bertha. Bertha. Tell you what though , for someone who doesn't watch it you don't half know a lot about it. I did use to watch it. When I was on nights I used to watch it all the time. Yeah. watch it when you have your dinner. you soon figure out what's going on. I haven't seen it now, any any at all for about a month and within two episodes I've picked up everything. Yeah. The most interesting thing about going, coming back to it is trying to work out who's got married to who and who's divorcing who and what baby belongs to which person. Shit hot Neighbours. Yeah but what you, it's not like a sort of a good story where you miss something. Because when you come back when you come back to it you don't feel as if you've missed anything. same as the last episode isn't it? I heard somebody they're behind over there in Australia We are. We're behind two years behind. got a new Madge and new everything over there yeah, got a new Madge. Harold died Probably Neighbours have been burned down by now. Where's my quid there Richard? Oh yeah. Where's my fifty p Tin Tin ? Oi! What? Eh? Well where's my fucking ? You owe me a quid, you cheeky What about my fifty p? Fucking hell, where's my tenner? can of Coke. Fifty p? Fuck off. A can of Coke it was. I give you a quid, you give me fifty p back. I didn't. What, you think you're bollocks have dropped, cunt? Scouts leader, all that sort of stuff. Akela in the Cubs. Brown Owl the Brownies. Never ever joined the Cubs or the Scouts Bit of a black sheep really. I joined the A T C once for a couple of months. I used to go on St John's Ambulance . I was in that for about three years. Load of fucking crap. Eh? Diabolical have to go through some tests. Yeah, it's daft really . They used to give us loads of tests, this bird I tell you a good programme which used to be on was erm oh fucking Auf Wiedersehn Pet. Did you ever watch it? Fucking brilliant. Even the second programme was good weren't it? Valerie and fucking er Moxie, you aright Moxie? Spain weren't they, the second one? Eh? In Marbella in the second one weren't they? Yeah. They they had to they had to cut the scenes cos that Gary died half way through didn't he? Yeah. Fucking hell! Fucking hell! Hundred and one pounds to get a fucking tooth Fucking hell! Where's he going? He must go to the most expensive dentist on the face of the earth. What's he doing, having platinum fillings or what? six months. I haven't been for three years. No I I need a done he said. I've got to have er a wisdom tooth out. All I normally ever end up doing is having them fucking cleaned Yeah I've got to have mine cleaned as well. Yeah. teeth out. I just fucking lost them all playing rugby and boxing. Goes through a new set every now and then like. Yeah. I tell you what. It's most embarrassing cos my do does your old may wear y wear his teeth false teeth all the time? Yeah. Except for when he goes to bed Mine he takes them out and puts them on the sideboard. It's fucking disgusting. Yeah. Ugh! And a piece of tissue or something like that. And when he fucking walks out somewhere he he'll always put his teeth in his fucking pocket . Ah no! He'll be sitting down He what? Joking! Thing is, my old man's had them for so long that he just, he he puts them in a in a cup of this like sterile solution every night. And erm that's it then. Have you ever seen that done? Somebody put their fucking false teeth in their beer? When they go to the pisser. Ah! Ah. It's fucking disgusting. Stop deters people Why don't they just take their from nicking their beer though. Yeah I bet it does but why why do they need to take the Fucking seen it. Oh god! I tell you. straight in the beer, wallop on the side. Fucking walked off. Come back and fucking hell. Ugh! What's so bad about it mate? They're only fucking they're only plastic and shit innit? Yeah You don't fucking expect to see them on the side of a bar though do you? I mean fucking anything Yeah in a fucking pint of beer. pickled in beer. Wouldn't worry me. Must admit probably cos my old man's had them ever since I've been alive. Yeah, the same as my old man, but Yeah. It's like one guy down in Wales when I went down there last time. He's fucking stood there, he's got the sneezes and he's whaaa whaaa whaaa in his fucking beer. He's going oh that'll deter people from fucking nicking it. Every two minutes. Ugh! Oh yeah well that's that's a bit worse. Sneezing in his fucking beer. Ugh. Who? Some Welsh geezer down in Wales. Welsh geezer. His name's Lally. Or that's his nicks name. They're barbarians anyway down there aren't they? His nickname's Lally. Cos when he when he goes Do fucking lally innit? Yeah. When he gets in a er a punch up he goes a bit fucking do lally. . Sounds like a right nutter. Fucking I tell you you've never seen a pair of hands on this like them. Fucking about my height about my build, but he's got fucking hands which are about three inches bigger than mine all round. It's totally Fucking strange. unbelievable. Fucking plates. Do we need any compound? I haven't . I've got some mates with weird nicknames. Really fucking weird nicknames. Chicky One Hand Too Digger Digger. Digger. He's Aussie is he? No. Miner? No. that's his second name. Digger . all three of them. There's three, three brothers one's Big Digger, Little Digger and Dumper. And then Little Digger got his nickname Chicky. Cos he fucking he's a bit punky. You know and he used to have one of these fucking mohicans, he looked like fucking a fucking chicken. So he became Chicky. Sounds like a right bunch. bunch of weirdos. No, you'd get on alright with them Stuart. Thanks. I think. I think about the only nicknames that my mates have got Bunch of wankers? No one 's called either Tony or Malcolm the Mountie cos he looks like Tony Slattery. Oh yeah? He really does. Oh! That's where he first came to fame wasn't it? The mountie Malcolm the mountie, yeah. Yeah He looks like the spitting image of him I tell you. He really does. So it, he either gets called Tony or Malcolm Mountie. We've got this erm I actually don't know why he's got this nickname but there's this guy who lives out in er and he's got the nickname Seamus O'Reilly. You have to do that, it's Seamus O Seamus, how are you doing Seamus? And I don't think I could tell you how he got his nickname. Cos I don't think he's got anything to do with Ireland or anything. There's a couple of mates of mine Obey. Robert his nick Yeah. name was and he's called Obey or Bod. Everybody called him Bod. Yeah. Like the oth Martin There's this other two and erm they're brothers and they're both they're both quite big. Sort of not fat but quite well built and all that. And they've both got slicked back hair. Yeah. And they look like the fucking The Management. Oh . So we don't call them what we, we call them Ronnie and Reggie. Yeah? After the Krays. We started calling them Ronnie but it got a bit confusing. And out of those four out, well out of the the bunch I know that's the only four that have got nicknames, that we actually use all the time. Winkle. Ravi used to be. Winkle was the classic. went to call someone a wanker Wanker it come out winker . That's it. Yeah you tell me these things. Fucking winker. I've I've had quite a few nicknames. Think you should fuck off. Cos I think you should fuck off. Do you like your face the way it is or not? Not particularly, but you ain't gonna do nothing about it. We don't like it the way it is. Can you arrange something? facial attribute squeezing a fucking zit. Why don't you fucking squeeze that spot on the top of your shoulders? Ha ha ha. You got overtime ? Course not. Don't be silly. We haven't had overtime for the last couple of weeks. Saturday You sure you can't get that finger any further up there? Look at that, right up to the elbow he's got that finger up his nose. Flipping hell. Ask me what? Ah, you're as bad as Tim. . Tim ought to be able to do it . listen to yourself. Don't worry about it. talking to two blokes here. I worry about you I'm not talking to Sue, I'm talking to you. I've not said a word against Well how come you're getting shoved after five years experience? first first few days you got involved with too many foremen. No. You have, cos you've been lippy. Erm first few days You don't get on with your work. First two days . First two days he came up here I know you had that unfortunate incident Yeah. about two or three days after being here. Well somebody in the office. The thing is, you haven't had a brilliant neither of you two have had a brilliant reputation for a long time, right? Now he's, he's done nothing he's done nothing, put it right for the last year. As probably so have you. But it takes a lot longer than a year to get rid of a bad reputation. Elvis. Is anybody . Eh? Don't worry about me I'm singing mate. yeah, he knows the score. Trying to get the time to go a bit faster. Eh? I thought you were moaning. No, I was singing. Half four. Half four. And some of us keep to our contracts. Do they? Yeah. Says who? Me. Fucking company don't does it? Well go home at half five then. No, I'll go home when I'm ready. Three hours. They're not giving us four hours are they? They ain't keeping to their part of the contract. Yeah, you can fucking sue them. I know. Cos they keep telling cos I owe them so many hours they keep coming up to me and telling me that I owe them so many hours, you signed the contract saying you've got whatever happens . Now they're not giving us the time to make . They're breaking their part of the contract now. we've gotta thirty nine hour week. You've gotta do a thirty nine hour week? Well I do three hours overtime. Yeah. So we do three so we only get paid for thirty nine hours a week instead of forty. All I know even when I first even when I first got here and I was working And if I have two weeks time then we get paid er thirty six hour . Go to erm the C A B No, I only found out this morning didn't I? Oh yeah She'll probably go to a Citizen's Advice Bureau. Yeah. See what's going on, see what she can do about it. One of her mates over the road's he's gonna try and get a grant and then pay for the college by that and then tell where to go with his overtime. Yeah. And that's the best way of dealing with it really isn't it? Yeah. Still a bit cuntish. Yeah. I don't see why we should have to . Ryan, Ryan was doing four hours on the Saturday morning to make up his time, right? You get you officially get should get paid time and a half on Saturday morning. Half, yeah on Saturday yeah. So you are doing six hours to make up the four. Yeah. Well I never did it on a Saturday. I did it during the week and came in on a Saturday for myself. Oh see what she does. She'll sort something out for me. Yeah. Cos I've already sussed Jim out anyway cos he said it was on my contract saying I had to do the four hours. Well I've got my contract out and it's totally different to his and any other apprentices. I've just got another bit of paper a note saying please note while you are at college you are asked to do four hours overtime and that's not a contract, it's just a letter. So if I wanted to I could tell them where to go with that and all. Yeah. But get it sorted out. Go, get your mum or somebody to get all your paperwork together and go to the C A B. Because it sounds as if they're having you one over the barrel. Yeah. It was on a programme the other night saying the advice bureau are on the er companies cos some bloke, they were employing him to do something and he sued them and got two grand out of them. They fined him for doing something stupid I think the ideal thing is she can't you can't do that. But any any one of us in here now who were who were actually training and have finished our time, no no apprentices were to become part of the union. Even if you're in a non-union company, they will fight for you if they think you've got a case. If you've got a good case, then they'll put their lawyers on to it. But that's only if you are actually part of the union. Er paying subs. So probably be a good idea, even if you're not in a union company to to actually join a union . Whether it's rightly deserved or not ain't the point. a bad reputation. So if they made me redundant or whatever I know all the ins and outs. John 's fucked off in the afternoon to a car auction. Old Bob came over it doesn't matter whether the er reputation's deserved or not You ask Barry. I mean he he knows you've changed. He knows What time is it chaps? Please It's four o'clock. erm when you lot out there first of all wasn't there?moved on. I came in, and I was still in here Yeah but you you weren't, you weren't really put on No he goes he goes to me he goes Oh no you weren't were you? It was me and Jamesy and Graham weren't it? He goes er I think I think a lot of people agree but I think a lot of people would probably say that . Yeah. No, but I tell you what that, as soon as you two were separated When, when you went out there with us. You both started knuckling down. Yeah you did. We weren't knuckling down but we started working more because we weren't fucking bossed about. You you and Yeah that was though. and then you you got separated and both fucking started working It's a lot harder it's a lot harder to get rid of a bad reputation . I know that cos I had to work at it when I first come here fucking know it all attitude. Bit like me now. Yeah! Because I done extra metal work for three years right? And metal work two years before that. And I thought there ain't nothing these blokes can teach me about files and stuff. Right? And a lot of the time they couldn't teach me anything. I'd been doing it for five years. But obviously I'd got on to something a bit more skilled and I still had this know all attitude. And I I got right few bollockings. I had fucking verbal warnings and all sorts. And I tell you what, it took me probably another couple of years to get out of that. Verbal, written. I've had none of that since I had a fucking verbal already. Yeah, I got verbals. Cos he get, he said old man Who's that, Mark? Mark, yeah. And . Cos I hadn't done nothing. I said what the does your old man . I dunno whether he actually tells him he's fucking off or what, but I think he knows he That's what pissed me off, when you lot got moved down there fucking ridiculous. and they were added on after. Yeah I know, that's why. When we first went out there there was no trainees and then all of a sudden we got no, who did we get? because it was the same time. Cos we got Brian didn't we? Yeah. out there come back in here. Can't remember. I think he's just a fucking arsehole to get sent get himself out there. Cos that that's what Tim and especially Richard was fucking well upset about. He only went out there to help some Good luck to the bloke. I haven't seen it. Still got . way to get on innit? Basically you've gotta be a yes man. I'm not a yes man. At the end of the day you'll flatly refuse to do a job if you don't like it. I'll just say I don't like it, I'll go and do it. . Fuck it, I'm ill. Well this is the thing I can't understand, especially Mark and that. Why you lot can't . It looks better on your record than being made redundant No, you'll still get sacked. You can get sacked for fucking I know, I'm not, that's what I'm saying. Specially Mark and oh really taking the piss. just fucking for three hours. Well he's gonna struggle to get get a job anyway. He he's gonna struggle to get a job anyway let alone I asked Derek if he'll give me a reference said yeah. really but Well Derek'll give you the right one won't he? Will it help Barry if if I can use the same to actually ask him if ? C V and photo photocopy it or something. Or would it just will it just be the same as writing down your name and . That's it, if Derek said I could use his name for a reference Er I dunno I I mean I have never actually had a written reference from anybody when I've left Yeah I mean you used to do that I mean Yeah, the old days. I got a written reference from m m m In the old days no no I mean you my headmaster and stuff to get That's right. What do you mean? I went out Monday to get er a replacement for I'll get the yellow pages and I'll phone up so many companies . Is that the time, what time is it? Quarter past four . Quarter past fucking four? Oh Jesus. Pack it up. Fucking hell. No That fucking Better turn this tape off. Eh? Better turn this tape off. You fucking put it back, it's still recording you little cunt. cunt, wonder what that would be if they put it in a dictionary. A little turd with a microphone. Some pratt messing about with microphones. Bloodshot eyes all the time. Where's the speakers then? I want a listen out of it. Headphones innit? headphones. Oh right. You can get little It's a fucking Walkman you goon. you can get little speakers to put on the side but they use loads of power they do. Yeah I know I've got a pair. They're the that poster up there. fucking . Yeah put it up there. Get a poster up there. What poster? You're middle middle page What poster? poster. Oh your middle page. won't have that will they? Oh yeah nice And the second page. She's fucking well nice. Katie She's well No, not there old boy. I can't hang it over a drawing. up there old boy. Up you get. Go on, up you get. Pretty tasty that is actually innit? bit on each corner old boy. I don't really agree with this kind of thing Is it level? Erm No, I don't either. Er yeah. No, her right one's hanging down a little bit. yeah was having a field day when he saw that. weren't he? Pull it down a bit. Pull it down a bit. creased up. Yeah have heart attack Mick. Old ticker's going. Pull that no pull that top down. Oh will you give it a rest! Are we happy now people? That'll do it. Hold on, her left one's lower than her right one. I think we ought to put a bit of sellotape over that one. Yeah. Cut it out. No Over which one? We got a bit of remember. Yeah we got we got . What's that? When you're big enough boy. It's not quite the same is it really? I like that. You like that one do you Cherub? What's that? I said a topless male and a topless woman calendar, it's not quite the same is it? And then he said you've got the old fucking tits and all haven't you. I like that one. I like Thirty six double D. Hark who's fucking talking. himself. I took a polaroid of fucking Karen last night in her underwear. I'm gonna try and get it. She won't let me get it. You're joking! Bring it fucking in. That's what I'm gonna try. I've gotta well it wasn't kinky underwear but it's underwear. Got a picture of Karen in her underwear last night with a polaroid. She's just bought a polaroid camera. And er Thing is she's wearing his y-fronts. I I I I I I I wanna check, I wanna check her out. Yeah. Get a picture and then I will. I'm gonna try and get hold of this one. But it it it's tasteful but it's not not too bad. She's in her underwear not too revealing. looking at. She's got fucking thigh high boots on as well. Eh? Has she? Fucking definitely bring it in. We'll all have a wank. Oi . Put it up on the wall and have a fucking jerk off. She's got her fucking thigh high boots on. Definitely bring it in. She won't let me have it like. I tried to get it last night. Cos I fucking took it and I said you haven't taken one have you? And I said well yeah look thing buzz coming out the end. So and she said let me look at it and she what she's doing fucking she's fucking got her leg on a stool like that, not a very high one like sort of like that right? So I thought yeah I'll have that . She said, she looked at it and she says you're not having that. I said I am. I was just about. No, you're not having that. I said no come on, no messing about. I ended up chasing her around the house fucking photo. And the thing is, by the time I by the time I chased her I was so I don't know, don't even know where the photo is now. Chasing round going like that. It wasn't like that, it was just fucking It was like that. Yeah. Yeah. Did you see that I put it to you people You don't need to stand that close to it. Sorry. Cos it it fucks it all up. Does it? It goes really quiet afterwards. I mean I was listening to one of the tapes last night. What's this? I was listening to one of the tapes last night. And he he'd got up to it and he gone good morning Trev about two inches away from it. And it fucked it up for about a second or three seconds afterwards. It really goes really quiet and then comes back up to full volume. It's probably got one of those self adjusting thingies has it? Yeah. Oh well I'm sorry Tramp There's no need to shout either. I tell you, it picks up everything. I tell you what, this even picks up the girl over the tannoy. Really? Yeah. You can actually hear what she's saying. So it must have one of those self-adjusting microphones. Self-levelling Oh my life! Yeah. deck shoes. Plimsolls! Deck shoes. Plimsolls. Deck shoes. They're sort of plimsolls aren't they? Fucking hell No . Deck shoes. Everyone wears deck shoes but no-one wears plimsolls. It's a fierce old colour that old boy. Very old. I've had them about two years and never really worn them. My old mum can remember when the old french onion sellers used to come round, door to door. I think. Bit all all mix all me greened up. God knows what this survey's gonna make of this all me greened up and right shitted up or something. innit? Is that just him or is that what most people say around here? What? Right messed up or all messed up . Right seems to be er the in word at the moment. Pardon me. Are you recording? Yes. The little light flickered. Cor I tell you, I could eat another one of those scotch eggs. of shit from you. Certainly got that look about her. What's her name? Nicky Another quick jostle of an evening. From what I've heard it is quick as well. Eh? From what I've heard it is quick. All evening. you've got no fucking onion crap. None of these ten minute jobs. Four hours of hard strain. Oh you're coming down here Derek? I thought we was gonna get rid of you. No I might as well do it on that bench there . Oh my life. This is my bench. Picnic time at Rumbolds Hey hey we're a-munching . Oh look he's bringing . He ain't bringing any tools. bring your tools as well look. Fucking off out at two o'clock anyway. lunchtime. Have you found anywhere yet? So if you take into consideration . But aren't all their jobs linked and stuff? No. the odd one or two Been to er Bracknell or Reading? No I wouldn't wanna work in Reading. Dodgy old area, Reading. getting there. Fucking traffic . You'd best go and get help. Best go and get help? I'll lend you a hammer if you want. You'll need fucking help. Be fucking . borrow a hammer You like canvassing don't you? Battle of the lightweights. He'll Better than being battle of the fucking ten ton Tessies. He'll end up in the same place as the last bloke and he's still there. Listen to it. Did you hear that? What? fuck off. Don't you talk to my mate like that. I only like . Fucking here innit? Yeah. They give it all the innit Terry? They give all the fucking verbal and they'll ride off and they'll all fucking Oh my god. Oh my life! Fucking . They fucking give it all the verbal and Oi Tramp! What's the fucking crap? Don't fuck about, he'll fucking deck you. What sort is it you've got Alex, an Electrolux or a Vax? No a Vax has got four wheels innit Shall I make the little thingumajig up for you? No. Gonna make it up? Make it up then. Wanna see what it is. Fuck off. Eh? Cost me eighty five P, that . You've been ripped off then Rich. I love the chocolate you fuck. gonna get one someone else. Fuck off. Fella's Trampor is fucking won't let me make his toy up. He wants to get home and play with it. Course I do. That's half the fun of having Kinder eggs. Sod it, I'm gonna finish the lot. I love the chocolate. It's beautiful. Really is nice. Shit! Hey ho . Oh no! Not sure whether this was a good move giving him the job. I thought he was taking it down there, I didn't realize he was fucking out here with us. He's clocking off at ten o'clock anyhow. Ten o'clock? Applied down the Job Centre . Never get rid of him now. this day . He's even pinching the old boy's . . Can't help it . Yeah? Yeah.. Paper? What one do you want? They played at home look. fuck. Got a match as well? Can I borrow yours Mark? Bit rude innit for you Mark, this one? No. No? What, the match? No his Oh. Ooh that's nice that is. That's right. I put it on Farmer Giles. That's a sad case . What? . When he starts bringing his bench and stuff down here Barry and I'm gonna . Filled up. Day are you going? Brilliant Yeah twentieth. Off the ro up the road up the swanney. Why, have you managed to get another week out? I had another week anyhow That's erm that's your fourth one Tramp innit? Yeah. How long's that? You've had four of them? Mm. No I've been here more than five years so they'll have to give me five week's notice. Saying that I've got me notice on a Monday You serious? You've just had four of them? so it should have gone though to the . Oh, so I've got to put up with you a week longer than everyone else? Yeah, yeah. That's the worst bit of news I've ever . You'll miss the Christmas drink up . Eh? You'll miss the Christmas drink up. Who will? I won't. Yeah they are going. Hey come and take it away will you . Not bad. Not bad. Oh god . You're in for a treat today Barry. Sorry? You're in for a treat. Ooh . What the?but what's fucking going on here cunt? Excuse me. What do you think you're doing here? Oi Tramp. What's going on here cunt ? Fucking lovely modulation. Er got a pencil old boy? Me and old aren't into fucking pencils are we ? Reckon the old wooden ones . See when you're a fucking tradesman you've gotta have the gear ain't you? Yeah, that's right. Precision pencil. None of this There's some erm stuff that you lot do. No I do like the old er pencil in the Yeah. Ha. Fucking hell. Think of it. That's the last B and E we'll be doing. These ones, won't they? Let's rock and roll. Barry Oh dear. Oh that looks rather sensual Mick dunnit? Ah! Yeah. When you do it like me you'll learn this one day. Do what? Eh? when you're good as me. You'll get there one day. I had him last night . Eh? I had him last night. Oh yeah? When's Who? Oh they had to fucking swap them so Did you? Started off at twelve eight nineteen eleven. They was eight three last night. Got him on the run . Be a bit of a bastard if he pulls back . My girlfriend's cousin's in there this week Mark. Eh? My girlfriend's cousin's in there this week. ? Yeah, it's something to do with Argyle. Plays for who? Plymouth. Does he? Yeah. What's his name? Mark . Mark who? . ? Yeah. That's a moniker and a half innit? Plymouth . You what? Got a job yet Alan? No, not yet.? No. You been looking? Yeah. Eh? Yeah. Don't sound too convincing. No , it doesn't does it? I don't think he has. Now and again. You telling porky pies? No. Have you been looking or not? Don't think he has has he? Now and again. He's been laying in bed on his days off hasn't he? Even the fucking day of the cup he is, look. Who gives a Oi oi. Steady on. Fucking Derek's up there Eh? Derek's up there. Where? There, there. He is Yeah I would di would you Rose Well I haven't. Er Get here a second . Oh hold on a minute. Hold on. Hold on.. He's just got a little job to do. Little job. A little Hurry up. Oh my life, what's he up to?. Here Tramp Hold that while I give it some wellie. Oh you dozy fuck! There's always one isn't there? Steady on, there's a lady present. Where? Ah ah ah ah Mr Grimstone Ah. You alright? Yeah. Fucking sound. Fucking fooled me. Fucking sound. You fucked my mean green up Tramp. Bollocks You fucked my fucking mean green up. I'm non too happy. It's not fair, it's not goo good enough for me and . I've got it all over me . It's gotta be fucking spot on ain't it . Yeah. do you reckon? I'll sort it out Tramp. Don't worry. Look he puts his hand right in my mean green. though innit?semi skilled ain't got a fucking clue. Ain't got the brains they were born with. They fucking ain't. It's not good now. I've gotta redo the fucking thing. Ha ha. I dunno, he knows it's fucking . That's what we're up against though Cherub. Can't get the staff boys can we? Well it's fucking cup of tea. Eh? Time for a brew? Yeah. There is a house in New Orleans they call the rising sun. Been the downfall of many young men. I know because I'm one.. Did you see that last night? No I missed it. I'm a skilled fucking man. That's why you're needing me cos you er two ain't got the fucking skill between you. You cheeky cunt. I'd piss all over you tramp. Wh co when it comes down to craftsmanship You ain't got a fucking hope have you? I'd piss all over you. than me if it's er fucking craftsmanship you're on about. He reckons I ain't got the couldn't handle that one over there he reckons . Eh? Couldn't handle that one. Fucking hell! Because er Well why don't you ever do it? I don't want to. It's too much hassle. Exactly. Cos you haven't got the fucking skill. No no no no, no no no, no no no . That's when I don't wanna do it, just too much hassle. That means I want the easy life. I'm not saying I can't do it. It's that I don't want it. Well do it next time. No, I want the easy life tramp. Looks bad on him, doesn't it tramp if he won't do it? I want the easy life. Bollocks to it. Old tramp takes about five days to do one of them. Yeah fucking right. Huh! Still to do this fucking programme er progress chasing bit eh tramp? Yeah, fucking been coming up fucking up other people's mean greens Yeah. That's one of the skills. What? You know? Being able to put your hand to any fucking thing like I am. I mean that's fucking Tramp I said I didn't, just, I didn't say I couldn't but I don't want to. There's a big fucking difference in the Yeah. in the English dictionary. Nobody wants to. . Well there you go. I want the easy life. And I'm getting the fucking easy life. At the end of the day I've got my head screwed on. Just about par for the course cherub old boy. Yeah I know . We're not fucking arguing about this again are we? Yeah. About what old boy? About not wanting to do things Yeah yeah we are, yeah. Are we on that again? Yeah we're one. Eh? the one. It's fucking horrible round here innit? Every time tramp picks it up we get on that one. He comes out with I'm mister wonderful bollocks. Well, you're always sprouting to us about how fucking good you are. Yeah but it's not bollocks though is it? Ha! That's the fucking difference. Ha ha! Is that right ? Yeah. It's about right. Shut the door. What the fuck would you know? You fucking reject. Yeah I know. Fucking hard life though innit? Yeah. used to get a little bit jealous at the end of the day. Well that's it, yeah. we're young Jealous? we're young, we've got it up here and Yeah. they don't like it. Jealous? We're young we . Of you? Fuck off! Still learning and we're still better than them you know what I mean? Fucking hell. What's the world coming to ? Jealous! Ha! Silly thing is that they actually believe it don't they? Yeah I know. This is sad. This really is. The thing is you two fucking believe every word you say don't you? It's true, that's why. They fucking do! They always say the truth hurts cherub. Yeah. It's fucking killing tramp though innit? It fucking is innit ? If the truth hurt fucking wouldn't be here Tramp. . What are you gonna do look. We are fucking shit hot. You got the shit bit right. And the hot bit right as well. Yeah. No. Shit hot. We got the shit bit better it it was put, talking about you. Yeah. If you're talking about me and Huh! It's a double, double-barrelled name when you talk about me and cherub. Shit-hot. And it's got a hyphen in the middle as well. Where are the potting tabs then chaps? Toolbox. Yeah that's why you're getting, losing your job. Where's th where's the potting tabs tramp? In there. Fucking had to be in there didn't they? Oh fucking hell! Here hang on where's Roy? . Stu, where's Roy? It's like the fucking stores here innit eh? Oh right . It's all we need and we've got a fucking sto oh here we go. That's nothing. You never saw Richard's. I can imagine it. He had no fucking tools in there, it might have been all might as well have been fucking everything else. Look at it fucking oh . Let's twist again, like we did last summer. Ooh let's twist again, like we did last year. Do you remember when I was humming couple of hours get me going. let's twist again like we did last year. Up and back and round and round we go again. Wouldn't mind a bit of that.. Where's Barry gone? The old boy. Eh? live in ? I had to my wife . I know I came in here once with my mum's keys. The spare and the ordinary key. I had the whole lot. She couldn't go anywhere . No what it was, she locked her keys in the car Yeah? something like that. Yeah. oh go and get the spare keys and get the keys out. So I've gone out there with the spare keys, got the keys out tossed them in me pocket, gone back indoors Forgot Oh I had to get something out the car as well you know? fucking car keys fucking spare keys . When she phoned oh sorry mum, I didn't realize I had them. Yeah. Hope you're not planning to keep that pornographic photograph on that wall. Eh? Well reckon I'd give it one if she asked nicely. Marks out of two he'd give it one. She'd have to ask fucking nicely. She'd have to ask fucking nicely. Just popping down to see . You never know it might be half one lunch. You've got to be back in here at half two. You didn't even get a chance to get in here and . Yeah he sort of almost ripped him out of there. No, he took out he goes here you are tramp.. Five minutes for a job like that. Christ, it's an afternoon job that is. Never! Even young knocked a set of them out about an hour. slow him down. Did you hear that thing about the old geezer who chopped his old man off? Oh I saw the headline. What was that then? Chopped his old man off. Gauged his eye out cut his tongue up out and then chopped his old man off. Er where's your hammer cherub? Then the old girl turned up and him to stop him mutilating him bit more. You're just a devil woman you're just a devil woman How far back's your then Barry? About half inch? No, take them down a bit One skinhead two skinhead three skinhead four kick the fucking while he's on the floor. Kick him in the bollocks kick him in the head. Kick the fucking till he's fucking dead. Chelsea . Chelsea hooligan like I always said. what a lovely song. Isn't it a lovely song? He got chucked out for singing that. Chelsea. Well he took the old and he offered him out. Who? Matey. Goes one on one I'll fucking take him out he goes. Right, I was cracking up, he was right behind me. I was in hysterics. Wherever we may be we'll follow cos we are the Chelsea and we are supreme. We'll never be mastered by no northern bastards . He was out he was. I as the old bill grabs him like. He was, he was going he was up there cracked up . I'm gonna have to pop up there one week with you. He's such a fucking pratt. He was fucking well gone They are so subtle these Chelsea songs. Yeah. They actually don't mess about do they? Yeah some cunt wants my coat . I collapsed though. He come out with some more classics but I can't remember myself. goes up there? Last time there was what me,geezer,was there, you know . My mate used to. I'd go up on me own. When you're in there other people. You . Very good too. There was another couple of Chelsea fans I was singing about them all the fucking day weren't I? sing along with the best of them. We'll keep the blue flag flying high right up in the sky we'll keep the blue flat flying high. From Stamford Bridge to Wembley . And the old just applauded when he finishes . he starts it up again goes oi shut the fuck up. Are you up are you up there Saturday? No, away to Sheffield Wednesday. When is their next ? Sunday er Man United. Yeah? You going ? No. No I'm coming on Saturday. Come to Chelsea Tottenham it's a good week. Yeah? Tottenham support . Tottenham supporters, two Chelsea and a fucking Gooner. In the shed. There's a lot of you go up there . You ought to come up there . up there with old cherub. Check it out. Coming up then ? Yeah I wouldn't mind. You gotta handle the tubes though I tell you what get going to the Wolverhampton versus Notts County with Jonesy. Oh my life! He can't handle the tube. I can't handle the tube. Have you his excuse for not going to Arsenal cos he can't handle the tubes. No. Fucking, fucking hate them. After the game after the game's the worst bit. You claustrophobic then Rosie? Arsenal tube station. Yeah? Do you get claustrophobic then Rosie? It's not so much claustrophobic it's just when when you're in in the fucking station waiting for the old train you're on the front of the fucking platform. Got every cunt behind you pushing. Yeah. Nearly hit the fucking ditch like. . Fucking hate that. I'll pop up , not till I'm handcuffed to you. I'll get fucking lost. Cherub, cherub I'm lost . Up fucking it's a laugh. Fucking brilliant. It's a good old sing-song. What was that ? There was some matey in the crowd, I forget who it was Wolv Wolverhampton fucking end we were. And they're all sort of brummie type people you know? They all speak with a brummie type accent. Fucking for them. And he goes fucking run will you. Get out of your fucking wheelchair you and fucking run And there's this de the rest of the fucking crowd are dead silent and this, there's just this bloke's voice. Everybody fucking cracked up. Sounds about par for the course. Fucking brilliant. Dead fucking silent. But I'll tell you what, they outsung Notts County. Ain't fucking hard though is it? I say chaps Eh? No. No. Can't remember. They're tens aren't they tramp? What's that? Yeah tens. Wonder if he lea leaves a slime trail behind him? You what Skip? Wondering if leaves a slime trail behind him. No you don't have to but they want as many done as possible. Fair enough I suppose. Anybody take the gun? Anyone got the gun? No. We don't use the horrible thing. Last one. Bollocks. Yeah. Go down and ask him. mine then. No it fucking ain't, mister. Bet it fucking is. You got about five of them went round giving them to other people just so you could say that to Chris didn't you? Yeah, that's it. I've certainly had enough of the year. Yeah, I have. But I could have said that about Mark's one. How many do you fucking want tramp? Might as well stock up. I'm going for the full set. I've got six, I've got number five, got number four, got number two. Want three and a one now and I'm away. Ugh. The long and the short and the tall da da da da da da da da da da da da da When Mark was just a little girl, he asked his mummy Bless your beautiful hide wherever you may be . I tell you what, I'll leave one of these here if anyone's interested Me thinks not. Oh it's a fucking race. That'd be a laugh actually. What? Treasure hunt. You drive, you do the walking and you give me and Chris the prize when you've won. I ain't got time to go gallivanting off stuff like that. Yeah. Fifteenth. When's that? Oh Sunday innit? Fifteenth for er Chelsea United. Chelsea Man U? They're on the telly innit? Yeah. Oh, cherub on the box. You won't see me boy. Be inconspicuous will you? I'll be up in the shed. Wanna get out and chat to your old fellow Chelsea supporter? Who's that? Old 's out there. No, he's a plonker. I beg your pardon? He's a plonker. He must be. He supports Chelsea for a start . He's a good fitter. Is he? Yeah. though. So why'd they make him up to a supervisor then? Erm Don't normally get I'll never get made up to supervisor. Because erm Derek was looking for a supervisor and he said to me one day in a moment of desperation he said who can I make up? I said well I'll tell you who you wanna make up I said er yeah I know I said you wanna make somebody like up I said cos er I think wrote the book. He says I know we all over his face. Sure enough. Had a punch up? I mean now they're as thick as thieves you know? I mean now they wanna, both on the other side of the fence, they're the biggest crawlers going. And they were two of the biggest villains, they're in the fucking Yeah, that's true. Mick, Mick when I was, when I was working down there in er the machine shop, him and erm Ian you know the bloke who one of the engineers? They sat in there and they drank a whole bottle of scotch between them one Christmas. Micky now you know, he'd tell you he's whiter than white. I mean when he er you know when that thing was going on about the old ? Yeah. lark. I was talking to him about that and I got a totally different response from him that I expected didn't mind. Oh no he was hundred percent on side. Oh it shouldn't be allowed and director can't walk through the company. You know Tosser. respected because he is a director And I said, leave it out Micky. Talk about cheetah changing leopard changing its spots. I mean he he really was He was total anti-establishment weren't he? What's that then old boy? Clove oil. What's it for? Toothache. To relieve toothache? Have you got ? No I haven't fucking lost the cup. What's that? Smelling salts. straight away. No it's alright, thanks. That's pretty innit? No oh don't do that. Stick them on your arse. will you? No it'd come in come in handy for a curry though wouldn't it? Fucking hell yeah. I tell you what, dip it in the bloody toilet paper, then stick it in the micro. Ooh. looking curry as well wouldn't it? of erm just just try it. Just try it, see what you think it tastes like. It's the stuff you put in apple pies innit? Just taste a touch. No I can't stand the smell of it. It reminds me too much of fucking . Thanks very much. That's a fucking brand new scalpel you bastard. It was. Don't like the dentist at the best of times. Hundred and one fucking quid? Mm. You having it put in there, platinum or fucking what? You're a dodgy geezer you are. Stuart, does that smell bother you? Just like a, like a load of fucking drugs pusher isn't he? Have some of this, have some of that. Somebody aqua fixing? You know how to use it? Yeah. Oh righto To tell you the truth that bothers me more than them . Yeah. But then again I've got fucking smoking chimney pot over there. Mark smoke half a fag and leave it on your bench to pollute the air . Fuck off. All I'm waiting for right, is for somebody to set a precedent for for erm doing people for manslaughter because of secondary lung cancer then you're fucking history sonny. Bollocks. Gonna have you up there for ass attempted assault. No I'll sue your ass boy. Oh don't do that . Cor, look at the tits on her. Mm. Cash and something, something. Amazing. Yeah, totally. But not after D and E fucking . gonna do no work is he? That's true, yeah. So what's new? . Have you got your job?. Yeah. Handsome. Start on the sixteenth. Well hard. Blows your excuse for going down the job centre. Or haven't you told them yet. Say what? Haven't you told them yet? I haven't told them when I start. I've got, I've got stuff to sort out anyway I they don't know I haven't . Got to sort out solicitors and Do they give you any training or anything? Yeah. Yeah. Do we get discount if we shop with you? Or do you just refrain from sending the boys round? Fucking hell. You could send the boys round as well couldn't you?rugby squad. How much are a pair of sort of alright rugby boots now? What? How much are a pair of alright rugby boots? twenty to thirty pounds. Yeah. But you can spend sixty to eighty quid. Mm. Depends what sort you want dunnit? One of those great British folk songs. oh my darling Clementine . Oh look and you'll find tra la la la la la. La la la la la la la la la la la la la Fucking hells bells. S O N at the end. Cor coming from you that's rich. Who's is it? Er Classical half hour now. Oh give me a London girl every time . I followed on with my old cock linnet. I dillied I dallied I dallied I dillied lost me way I don't know where to roam. Oh you can't trust a special like an old time copper when you can't find your way home. Sing faster. Eh? Sing faster . My old man said follow the van and don't dilly dally mm mm mm. Off went a van with me home packed in it Eastenders half hour. I followed behind with me old cock linnet. I dillied and dallied dallied and dillied lost me way and wouldn't know where to roam. Can't trust a copper like an old time special when you can't find your way My old man's a dustman he wears a dustman's hat he wars cor blimey trousers and he lives in a council flat . This is definitely cockney half hour innit? It's not even a Friday afternoon, we're all getting musical. Hopefully that tape will have run out by now. Eh? I said hopefully that tape will have run out by now. Let's all go down The Strand have a banana . I've got a lovely bunch of coconuts I've got a lovely bunch of coconuts They can do with some appalling singing. Ha! Yeah I know but that there is appalling and there's really appalling. There's appalling and then there's Cherub. Cherub, yeah. Probably listen to it go ah! What We're gonna turn it up full blast you bastards. What sort of what sort of working conditions must those poor souls work in to get agony like that? The poor tormented souls. What is this? Some sort of a Torture chamber. torture. Ah! Be even worse if they played his singing over the tannoy though wouldn't it? I mean that's gotta be the ultimate. Work or we'll give you more Cherub singing. Ah! I think you're being a bit out of order there old boy. It's true though innit? Yeah. Could be. Yeah you're right. Oh we're starting on the show tunes now are we? Sleep silent lady go to sleep. Ba ba ba ba ba What? sometimes all that I need is the air that I breathe just to love you . That's not a show tune. I know, I didn't say it was. You said it was. Well you were singing Memories. Memories all alone in the moonlight has the moon lost her memory la la la la la la in the lamplight I seemed to know what happiness was la la la la . Something like that anyway. I can't . Don't cry for me Argentina the truth is I never left you. All through my wild days my mad existence I kept my promise don't keep your distance bom bom bom. And as for fortune and as for pain I tell you what what was that last tape, number eleven? Yeah. They're not gonna get past number eleven. Just in just in case there's any more of what we was giving them. Ah ah. my mad existence. I kept my promise don't keep your distance. Bom bom bom bom bom I think we should have a a spares section glee club. and as for fortune and as for pain I never invited them in though it seems to the world they were all I desired. It's all illusion it's not the illusion it promised to be the answer was here all the time. I love you and hope you love me. Don't cry for me Argentina . a little bit. Eh? Eh? Saying to Cherub, you're going for it over there. Yeah. Don't cry for me Arthur Negus la la la la la la la la la. Whatever happened to all the heroes calling all the heroes shooting up the town boys Calling all the heroes shooting up the town boys. all of the heroes Oi, I thought it was a musical bit. Erm The phantom of the opera's here inside my mind. The phantom of the opera is here inside my mind pull back the curtains oh oh oh. one thing's for certain any dream will do . Fucking . You can't sing anything without him bringing up Chelsea. Fucking hell's bells. Hell's bells and little fishes you What? Erm Oh bollocks. Well bless your beautiful hide wherever you . No, you can't have that one. We've sung that one anyway. Have we? Erm Oh the bright golden sun in the morning oh the bright golden sun in the morning. And the palm's high as an elephant's eye and everything's growing right up to the sky. Oh what a beautiful morning oh what a beautiful day I've got a wonderful feeling everthing's going my way. Everthing's going my way. Happy talking talking happy talk ba ba ba ba ba talk about things you'd like to do. You've got to have a dream if you don't have a dream how you gonna have a dream come true? ba ba ba ba have a dream if you don't have a dream how you gonna have a dream come true? Fucking hell. Talk about a girl Rosemary I love you . When I'm calling you ooh you ooh fucking hell . I'll be calling you ooh ooh ooh . Oh my life. Ugh. Second part oh yeah. la te do . well impressed. reasonable. Eh? do ray me far so Three pound seventy five for It's Nigel. Again. Three pound seventy five for what? Three pound seventy five for what? For the examination. Yeah? Six pound seventy five for an extraction. Mm. It's a bit better than a hundred and one pound ninety two pence. Yeah but are they still gonna do that you're not having it filled? No. Pulled out. Pulled out. I'll save you a few bob . Tell me which one it is. Yeah I was gonna say, just let me smack her. Would you touch that tooth, seriously? No. No, no I wouldn't. No ha ha. Some enchanted evening . Don't tempt me. Ha. I might use a chisel. Fucking get all of them, oh messed that one up, have another go. Ooh you know. Oh what a beautiful morning The sunglass drawer that is. oh what a beautiful Mark. Do you need sunglasses? Every time he opens that drawer do you need sunglasses? Yes. We're all going on a summmer holiday no more working for a week or two. We're all going on a Summer holiday for a week or two me and you I'm the model of a modern major general la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la Can't sing that. Shut up you . We want, we want a video camera. We don't want a fucking tape. Ooh ooh. They're daft. The young ones darling we're the young ones . Fuck off. We ain't singing Cliff Richards. We refuse. By all that is holy. once didn't I Cherub? Played it once back on. Just slap him about a bit. I mean his face needs to be improved really, dunnit? The Rumbolds glee club proudly presents a mad half hour in the spares section. As a special guest, shag. Shag . Actually it's kept you really fucking quiet this hasn't it? Gonna have to put a bit of black thing, stick a black thing Yeah . in my box every time he comes round here. Have you any comments on this Mick? Fuck off. There you go. it's over to you, Longman audiovisual tapes. When shag sings. does that it, I'm surprised little Batman signs don't come up. Kerpow Yeah, kerpow. zow even, bop . Zap. Every time you fucking go and hit somebody. You, when you whenever you fucking hit somebody Just shut the fuck up. you go smack, smack, smack, smack slappity slap. Biff biff. When you're old enough you'll be too fucking ugly. You hit me you cunt so I'll fucking still owe you one. Fucking fuck the pair of you And you and all Shag if you want some. And you just stood there looking at him . Yeah I know but I mean what a way to look. You can see it now can't you? Listed under fuck all, all the different types Eh? all the different types of variations fuck has been used for. Shut the fuck up. Why don't you fuck right off? And all these sort of things you know? There's so man so many different variations of it. Get the fuck out of it. Yeah. Fuck off Graham. Exactly. That's gotta be the the used one though innnit? Fuck off Graham that's gonna have its own sub-heading just that. Yeah . You can see where's this eh, eh you can Could just see it in a Trivial Pursuit question see it now can't you? I mean Tramp is gonna come up and fucking in the English dict dictionary and they're gonna say a meaning unknown. Sharon what the fuck does this mean? You can see in a Trivial Pursuit question in a few years time what's the most commonly said three words? I love you? No, shut the fuck up. I know that's more than three. That's four. I meant to say fuck off Tramp . But I got confused. Fuck off Tramp. It's only cos I'm handsome debonair suave sophisticated and fucking dead horny and hunky. And they're all jealous, jealous. Look whoever's editing this tape you've seen the cunt. Now fucking draw your own conclusions from it. They're all jealous. Bollocks. We didn't ask what held your ears apart. I was just about to say that then if he hadn't have got in there I was. He is on fine form this afternoon. Form of Rumbolds mental torture and cruelty. Think of it, you can see it now. All all these Oxford undergraduates if you don't go home and learn your words we'll let we'll make you listen to Chris again. Ah, no no! Thought this was supposed to be anonymous? Anonymous? Anonymous. They won't fucking know who Chris is. They wouldn't want to know. They can find out. You never know, you might become an international celebrity as the person who can Oh go on! You just break it. I'd love to do it this is Mark reporting for I T N Rumbolds. shut Shut the fuck up. In the words of the immor the immortal poet fuck off. Eat shit and die you mother. It's cos you enjoy our company so much innit Chris? Guess I've just learned to put up with it. Only a smidge a tad I, I just say to him what do you mind doing? Fucking have a little drink here or fuck a couple of bob every five minutes. At the end of the day It's in their interests have a little drink innit, really? To have a a little drink. Oh come all ye faithful joyful and triumphant . Oh come ye oh come ye to Elland Road . Are you asking? Who? Elland Road? Where's that then? Can't be bothered to go up there though. If I went if I went up there What's the difference between Leeds and the I R A? The I R A are fucking The I R A have got a team in Europe. If I went to Leeds I'd never go coach falling into the ground. If I went I'd go park the car up wear a Chelsea shirt. Do they know us up there then? Yeah rather. Just a come down there down Chelsea get their fucking heads kicked in. I suppose innit? Fucking hate each other. I don't know Leeds and Chelsea had the worst record in Yeah. Britain at one stage . Fucking hate each other don't they? Leeds were the first club to be thrown out of Europe. They hate each other Yeah. There's fucking big punch ups after a Leeds Chelsea game. Big fisticuffs. Oh no I hate it when than ha when that happens, you fucking pull off the corner and the top don't come off. It's a real bitch to try and get into. Here are Mark put two five one O O seven one, about five seven or eight. Yeah if you could. Is it an inch and ten inches? You'd have to look up in . Yeah, you don't know then? Two one thousand. Fuck off! Two one thousand o seven one I think it is is it's equivalent. I dunno If I the exactly the same part bits on it? Yep the only difference between the two, is the colours If I could talk to the animals walk with the animals, sing and dance and squawk with the animals ah la la la la ! Is yours the ? That's No it's er that's one film I'd never seen, but I'd like to see. Erm Doctor Doolittle. Doctor Doolittle and around the world ! in eighty days, I've never seen that all the way through, with David Niven. I wonder who wrote that Doctor Doolittle? Who wrote that? Barry's the man with the words Barry ! Hello! Who wrote Doctor Doolittle? Do you know? Doctor Doolittle. Yeah you mean as played by erm Rex Harrison. Rex Harrison Rex Harrison yeah. Cor!no can't. Oh I just wondered Just wondered who it could be. Not H G Wells? Probably somebody obscure. What's that? Doctor Doolittle who wrote that? I dunno. Well we didn't ask you! I mean you would of said George Bernard Shaw it would've been . Who? Who? Nev never heard of him! Who? Pygmalion. Who? Pygmalion wrote Pygmalion. Sorry? Pygmalion. He wrote Pygmalion and sang Doctor Doolittle. Eliza Doolittle Eliza Doolittle. Do you want to ? Come on then sunshine let's boogie! Let's fucking boogie! I ain't dancing with you, you twit!chocolate star fish hunter! Fuck off! Got a ? Waterloo how can my Waterloo Shitty fucking shit! De de de deddle deddle de da da da da da da da . As he said could of taken the whole fucking What you lot off! What do you want me to do to prove that that wasn't me? Just wait till they bring and get down and to get on down If that what it takes and I'll swear on anything, I don't care, I'll swear on the bible if you want, if you got one handy. Yeah but it's no good swearing on the bible if you don't fucking believe in it is it? I do though. Just ask. Bollocks! Stu . It was fucking you Stuart! It wasn't Mark. Just wait until the last day, when you come, you sit down on the fucking stool and each leg goes like that! You watch Just wait! You rewind that tape right, to about ten, eleven, twelve, something like that, I can't remember when you did it. How are we supposed to know when we fucking taped it! That's what I said, about ten or eleven or twelve. Well it's at least one and half hour tape. Well that's fucking innit? I'd and the words would be I was bored and that's Cherub saying it, and he said that I was bored? as he was I never walking back I don't know why I'm explaining that! You We do fucking ! cos you're the bloke who did it! We thought this before. Yeah I know! So it's And I'm fucking you! It is! I've admitted to it , when it has been me. Court adjourned. I admitted it when it was me, I even fucking repaired the stool Bollocks, did you! when it was me! You le , you ripped his fucking stool to shreds, and then said it was me! As I told you all But I ripped your stool to shreds Yeah, and then I and said it was you. then I ripped his stool to shreds and then fucking you you admitted to me, it was you! Yeah. See I How's it go how's it go? On the If the adjourned. Ten past four. Ha. No this is, this is a fucking pain! What's going on here then? It's falsifying evidence. What? I'm getting the blame for crime I didn't commit. Right then Mr , shall we go through it just one more time and make your appeal You've heard of the six and the Birmingham four and the Renault five this is the fucking one! Oh! Oh! This is a miscarriage of justice. fucking Okay order! Order! Order! Order! No comment. Stuart . Yeah where's the This is daft innit, eh? justice and that man thinks Eh? I'm afraid he is guilty though, alright? He is he is guilty. I don't believe this ! Eh? They're being a little No I must admit, I don't remember this scene. Well there's no cutting little Go on boy yeah! Oh oh what! Yeah right behind your fucking chair! Oh that doesn't prove a thing! He had Gary It does. This is a right fit up! And I have to hand it to you circumstantial evidence. I have to hand it to you. Hang him by his bollocks! listen to everything, after all he will That's true. Isn't it? I reckon thirty. That's your printout Mick here are. You know Here , the old ! They I think can print it. It's not very nice Yeah but I should probably get a bit of today there, no problem. Ah it's me, it's alright. And there won't be for sure. No it won't come off. Get off! Get off! And he sells some Get off! He really likes that, he does, he goes he does Ooh look! Ooh! He never Get the Get the fuck off! do you hear. No. I said, get off! Why not? Got off of there and get down them there! No that really wasn't what I was trying to say Get off! Oh that's been all over the fucking floor! you cheat! Oh look he Cherub , that's cos he did it. Man that was all over too . Fuck! Fuck that ! It's this afternoon. Scrub the ears though. Yeah sorry I thought it was , I didn't realise these are coming off It's the muff diving I have to add that damn well to make you do it. What's that old boy? He's not there is he? He is. Oi, leave that alone! Who Ton? No, got it out my bag settle for that crap! What's that? I could be here all, fuck this thing! That won't be a tramp that one . Must say something . What're you up to? What does it fucking look like, cunt! Fucking do it on your bench! Could but there's no room on my bench, it's not a very flat bench either. Stuart. Oh . Yeah. Yeah nice fucking time sheet though innit! Is it? Nice and destroyed. Hey! Fuck off! I see it co , I see it coming to blows! Get this! Oh what do Then fisticuffs in here Barry. I don't like being accused of a crime I didn't commit, cos I admit to things I do. Eh? Bollocks! I didn't do that Mark ! I'm telling you I've admitted what? to when I did it. Did what? Ripped a bit out of his chair. Ripped my fucking seat! I did it in the past, right, and I did blame it on Mark, right and that last thing Blamed it on me, you cunt! No not you. Well fuck it then! He blamed it on you and fucking admits it! No I did it to Marks' then blamed it on Cherubs and Cherub come over and did it to Marks' and I admitted to it, or so or No, no, no, no! the other way around or something like that. But I got twe so that Mark blamed it on me but I'd sussed it, as soon as starts tramping Yeah. on the inside of str Er And this time, it isn't fucking me! Oh yeah. Oh yeah we had Douglas. It isn't me! Yeah, I know he's admitted it already that doesn't mean we're not gonna get you back for the first time you fucking did it! I even repaired his seat for him! Yeah, you never repaired mine did you? Mark cos I didn't do it to yours! I did it to his. Don't think, I can't remember, you're doing my head in tramp,fuck off ! I did it to his. And he did it to mine and then I did it to his, and you repaired his but you never did mine. Yeah well, sorry. You're a cunt! Yeah, exactly! Here, here, here! I thought they knew you cunt! Fuck off! He is ! You're a sad case int you really! Shot away with him. Who? Him junior. No this old mad man apparently he can't afford some. Twist my arm. I was waiting for that! you played fuck all go and number four they'll be able to help, twelve and twelve ,number three, make sure you don't cut it probably got a . Yeah. I've co come to stay the night with . Fucking hell! Good that, makes the old fucking it's still ringing, fucking what'll happen . Right, you take it in It's alright, I've only slipped up. You're a cunt ! could eat that here! Rule Britannia Britannia rules the waves It will be ! Don't think that will. And then we'll fucking sweet! It be it better not be and fucking ! Well if you sit on it and four legs go in different fucking directions There's the main part doesn't matter. and your mummy comes in a . At the end of the day, it ain't worth it. What's that? You don't like . Your mummy goes ah! Stuart what the fuck have you done! Er I probably, she probably won't say that, she'll probably belt you round the ear! Tha that wasn't me I said you ain't fucking learnt! I love it, it's great! fucking talk to you now! Couldn't believe he said that ! About,a right poof's game see he's a cunt the football . Yeah I reckon. The old chocolate Fucking nonsense sport! I don't know. Must be dangerous team in the world. Right lads, a lot of them coming up for sport today. What time is it?please. Dunno. Eighteen minutes past. Fucking pack up early didn't you? Yeah turn around time. I'm so vain You're gonna get your fucking head kicked in! You got a mate? Just run that number. Fuck right off! I can feel the stare. Fuck off Stuart! Nice shot! Fuck off! Oi, fuck off! Come on . Wait till lights out. You know you won't. He fucking will! He'll have a go but he he won't succeed Mark. Come on then Cherub, let's go for him shall we? Both of you might do him. Who? Or should I say you need my help. Fucking ! What need the Oh look he's standing near Leggio look. Yeah,. it always works it always works dunnit? I don't know. Look at that . Come on, you got an iron fist?. Sixteen storeys back sixteen blocks back. Make it a you got a good shot there. The old ones. All the old one's are the best. Well perhaps I can see you go for them. Have you got in there? Ah! The old boy. Old McDonald They always work last time I heard. Get off! Cunt! Fuck you mister! seven eight two one one seven eight one two Whoops! six. Here we go, here we go, here we go Oi! Stuart! Stuart! Where you going ? Do you mind! What? If you if you say something like how far would you of got, if I hadn't of called you back or It's only twenty three minutes past you're a naughty, naughty boy! Cos you were going up there before twenty five past weren't you? Twenty seven minutes past. Twenty minutes past then. Stuart! I'm gonna tell! Derek! Derek mate ! I already got past the . Eh? Gotta get the old fifty again this morning, old boy. Well you shouldn't It's on ten minutes. Right?. Now you got that old watch you er That's it, I ca I clocked it in one up there and it's like. The old man couldn't even put this Christmas. Where's my fucking bag gone? Eh? It's here. Good boy. Leeds have got their fourth round one tonight against Everton. It's there there's no you pratt head! But when I bought . I got it fucking awful again this morning . You get a photograph then mush? Eh? You get a photograph then? No, I've taken a couple, look. Eh? taken a couple, look yeah? Have you. Don't know what they're gonna come out like did it with my camera. Alright Tramp? It's . Yeah I was a bit drunk so I don't know what they're gonna come out like. What's that , a bit drunk last night? Not badly, just enough so I couldn't focus properly. Get the old Oh yeah? Some rude shots Get the camera and the photos and I would and if and if there ain't any photos so I get it back into focus and he do it again and it bit out of focus. Oh well tha that might of had something to do Yeah. with the focus. Yeah it is, I know about it . She actually let you photograph them? She had her clothes on. What do you say that was for then? Eh? So you can show the lady at work. No I just told her the truth, I wanted wanted some of her I heard you wanted a couple of photos of her so you could take them out in your wallet and keep them close to your heart. I wanted to waste a film! Aha, fucking hell! No, cos I I haven't used my camera for over a year and it's been fucking flung out from S A and all sorts. And now you're taking it back to S A and it'll probably be left out there. They're taking the yeah I should of done really, so I but I didn't know I was going back. So I've er I'm taking a load with different lenses and stuff. Just checking it out and something to write on. There's not the point going out there and fucking taking God knows how many pictures Yeah and not and then coming back and it's not fucking working properly! old boy You're going . If I was taking er Happy ever after young lover!is he weird ! Yeah I said to her I wa wanna waste a film and I couldn't think of anybody better to waste it on. Then I realised what I was saying, and it sort of realised that it wasn't really a a complimentary thing to say to her. No it wasn't. That was after she hit me! a couple of them in there. Yeah. Yeah. Yes, yes, yes. A couple of her cats friends down last night so she wasted a couple on them. Played this game called Snog. The what? Dog? Alsatian's . Snog yeah. I can't remember how you get there, I can't remember how cards is how many cards it is, but you get loads of cards, with with pictures of different things you have to kiss and it ranges from the hand at one point, navel six points, bottom seven, lips eight points, cheek three points, erm the chest fifteen points and there's a fig leaf one fig leaf bud in there, fifteen points and you can kiss anything you like. Oh right yeah. Right and there's also, what it is, is there's also a few cards just with snog on. And when you that lay down you can look at whoever what the other players have got face up and you either go for a player or you go for the maximum points. But you've gotta try and get the most points to win the game. And you pick you one you want to kiss and you have to kiss them on whatever their card is showing. And then if if you lay down the joker cards you have to kiss everybody. Right. There was erm me, Karen, her flatmate and her flatmate's boyfriend. Oh yeah. Playing this game last night till three o'clock in the morning. Quite a laugh. I won three games in a row ! Yeah? Cos I'd kiss anything! I'd had a few ! Don't sound like a lot . Wha Eh? I always get something wrong, I always I kept, I kept getting to kiss her flatmate's chest. And I was only doing up here but er, that's good enough, sort of thing I kissed her on the lips a couple , was everywhere of times kissed her on the arse a couple of times, great! Eh? She kissed me on the arse a couple of times, kissed me on the navel a couple of times. Yeah. But somehow, I me and this other bloke managed to avoid each other. Aha. I think he laid a joker card and I had a hand card up, so he had to do a kiss my hand. And so you get a dice. Well and it's the normal one to six dice and all that whatever the dice shows you times it by five seconds like. One one dot of the dice, five seconds, six, thirty seconds, yeah? And he he got he got my hand for five seconds and then I I got I got his hand for ten something like that. The rest of the time we managed to avoid each other it's good. Sounds like a good game. It's quite good if you well we were quite well away, but nobody was really jealous of each other and that. Certainly be a good game if you know people, you're not . Yeah have you ever played er spin the bottle? Used to play that at parties. You gotta have a go at strip poker though Yeah. But the thing is we were all really I mean thing I'd we've all nearly in a state of undress anyway. Yeah it's about ten of us at this party put the bottle in the middle and spin it and whoever the the open ends comes at is the the previous spinner's gotta kiss that . didn't play. Yeah. Well then I I fucking spun this bottle. I got the tastiest bird in the place and all that and er she spun it and spun it back to me and spun it. and he's he's a bit younger than me and I've gone come on then give us a kiss, like this, and he's gone like that, I thought, just there like this and I've leant over and went just there. And he's he's turned over this and just gonna slap one on me and I've turned my head and gone like that and he's fucking caught me right on the fucking lips ! A real cracker! So funny! Fucking hilarious! He wet himself! Yeah. He went, oh you dirty bastard! Yeah if you if there's some broad-minded adults there. But if you're really pissed, you don't care about them do you, eh? No that's right. Everybody wet themselves! You dirty bastard! Nice ! Susan trying to kiss me on the arse right and I fucking farted! Urgh ! She said you dirty animal fucking git! She got me she had to kiss me on the arse she fucking she had to be there thirty seconds to get the points and I farted at about ten seconds Yeah. And we wouldn't let her have the points till she came back and finished the other twenty. Quite a funny game. There's this thing called sex maniacs. Sex maniacs version of Trivial Pursuit. Oh yeah. Like erm can't remember them erm. Oh fucking hell, I was gonna try and remember some of the questions to bring in but I didn't. Oh yeah, what's the things like, what is what is the highest phallic symbol in France? Er, the Eiffel Tower. The Arc de la Defense the Tour de la Montpasset or the Tour Eiffel. What does verversity mean? Eh? What is verversity verversity I dunno. Is it and it's a multiple, is it A, a woman's preference for men's clothes erm two other answers. Sometimes there's just the totally outrageous funny answers to, sort of, some of the questions, sometimes they're similar and it's like verversity woman's preference for mens clothes. Erm there's all stuff like that you know, there's famous things you know. Who said who said sex is just five minutes of squelching? Is it A, Sid Vicious, B, Johnny Rotten, or C er Malcolm Maclaren, and apparently it was Johnny Rotten. Stuff like that, it's quite funny. What you gotta do is, each card, if you they ar the person in front of you asks the co the question and if you get it right you get that card and each card has got a letter on it and you gotta try and make up sex maniac. Oh I see, yeah. But you can't can't throw any away until you've got ten and then you can throw one away. And also in there there's like, there's there's the odd card saying swap your entire hand with somebody to the left or the right of you, or swap a card with the person on the left or the right of you, and that's quite funny for a laugh as well. Some of the questions are a are right outrageous! Can't remember hardly any of them now. forget whether er, have you ever had any oh book o , oh it's a game called Quotes. Quotes? Yeah, something like that, I'm just trying think who said I think I've heard it. such and such. Yeah. One of them was erm who said er it said Mae West it's a great shot! Said hey Mae We Mae where are your tits gone? She said, do me a favour and get off my back! Hardly ! Something like Yeah. you know? Quite a good game. About One of the Scruples is a good game. Scruples is good. Yeah. Quite good, I like that. One of the questions that does spring to mind is which of these three people have an I Q er four times their chest size, is it A I can't remember the woman, erm with a thirty two inch chest B I can't remember, Jane Mansfield with a forty three inch chest Yeah. or C, Albert Einstein with a forty seven inch chest? And it was B. Jane Mansfield had an IQ forty, er four times that. A hundred and forty one. Hundred and sixty a hundred and seventy two that's quite high isn't it? I was quite surprised, I said fucking Albie Einstein! Sunday morning first thing on the piss with Andy and stopped round his house. Mm. He come in, he's fucking right as rain me come in oh I'm feeling right got in, sat here for about half an hour quick mad dash, chucked at the fucking shit house murghhh!the fucking well I won't be able to play cos I don't I don't throw that evening I won't throw at all I won't throw the next morning. Throw up in the morning. I sometimes feel like it. Yeah. Well I must say I sometimes wish I did but I I've never done it in the morning. Yeah, You're a cunt! That means I could have What about with a bird? Yeah Not out of They don't really think Something like that. Cos you're fucking can't wait there! I said I During the time That's why I don't Yeah Manchester. Carl! What all those ? Thing about up north is they got good woman Oh I don't know, we ain't got bad ones down here. Yeah he's quite keen to do some nice work. So you're going down the south coast, it's lovely Guildford's alright, where they, they're fucking stuck up bitches! Hope we go to fucking Cal er Boulogne! Fucking weekend! So he's still doing it is he? Yeah. Yeah. Are you going? Oops! Eh? Are you going? No. Well I I ain't going. Eh? That'll only be where all the places nearly everybody goes. I know, Boulogne well it don't matter Most of them with Yeah? Yeah quite a long way. When I was thinking of doing. Anybody see erm Quantum Leap last night? Who? Quantum Leap. No. Brilliant programme that! Is there any time sheets in the tray, do you know? No idea he's gone from being a Jewish rabbi last night and he's he's sort of gone okay we'll leap now out of, so he's leapt out of that one and he's leapt straight into a fucking little boy's erm body right, and he's a mongoloid poor little soul and he's a downs syndrome kid. Yeah Is this all played by then? No no, it's like played by the same actor So how can he then Well wha what he does is is he looks at himself in the mirror something like that and er he sees sees the body he's jumped into. Right. Fucking brilliant programme! I mean you all the way Brilliant! through you see him as as the actor but to everybody else he's like Yeah. Last night this these , as I said, he's playing this rabbi Yeah. and he's having a punch up with his brother and he keeps letting his brother hit him he's got this holographic image he, who accompanies him with this fucking computer, and working out what's going on why they're there sort of thing cos he goes back in into to different times to to help these people out Yeah. and er he goes, aha the bloke hitting his his brother hits him, and the holograph standing behind him and he's going he's going, it's okay, it's okay, I've got you, I've got, like this and you see him fall backwards, straight through the fucking body and he goes sorry I don't got you! I said I he goes like this, and he clicks his fingers and he goes erm I keep remembering holographs ho holograms aren't real, ha ha! Yeah I, I've I've sort of heard that it's quite good, my brother watches it a lot. I keep meaning to watch it. It's brilliant! Really is good Saw it first time when it was out last year I can't think that twenty more days and I'm a fucking away. When are you actually flying out? Twenty sixth about four in the afternoon. You got on this er It's a funny old game! It's funny old game! Da da, da Da Where's the There you go. Where? There you go, have one of those No it's alright. Ain't got a small one have you thirty pee. Small Sorry? He kept waiting for me. Eh? No. Ain't you got a smaller one than that? No that's a . Take a six, won't it? Yeah. Can I borrow that a minute? Wouldn't worry about it, that's alright. Alright. ! Everybody No, not at all. everybody fucking ! Do they? Yeah. Naughty lot of people aren't you! I need that anyway. Makes you laugh don't it? Yeah. I dunno, what about you? Fucking tapes? Yep we are recording for Oxford English Dictionary. Oh I was saying something about that Nothing they provided the lot. What're you recording? Erm just everyday common or garden conversation. What and all this fucking behind you? Yeah. Why? It's going into a dictionary it's to help erm students I suppose but that's all I can Can you got a bit of er Everyday common or garden slang Yeah? colloquialism erm local accents. Here ! I bet innit! He better , Eh? fucking lights going on and off! Yeah it's recording. Yeah but it's that light,? Going on and off supposed Yeah. to be that ? Well it's taping it with the recording. That shows that you're actually picking up the sound. Picks up everything, it's pretty good actually. Here Tramp,let us have a listen to that. Me and . Well Right Der, der you got a tape to tape at home Mark? Eh? Have you got a tape to tape at home? What tape number is it, in there now Mark? Er thirteen I think, thirteen. Fourteen. Fourteen. I Didn't have time to fucking cut the beef this morning,in the butchers . the sun go down Just bread and butter and fucking a big slab of beef. That's alright. Go for it mate, fuck it! What does Sud Milsch mean? Fresh milk fresh milk. Could be. Ask Graham. No not that bothered ha next time. It's good, it's got a ca , well impressed! Done it really nice, done mine at the weekend. Oh where's that? Up here on the er No I did mine down in I wanted to go in a car wash watch it, just sit and fucking st , right that's the It's a lot easier. and I've never used one of these jet wash things so it's gone when it end the cycle will go and it will indicate right, so I'm Yeah the the I'm expecting like a lights or something are flashing so I got the off the jet wash and I'd just about got to the where I started again it's gone bib bib bib bib bib is that it? No it can't be for something not very loud and that's all gone, shit, I've fucking it! I've thought no, it must be the end of the cycle and as I've said that the old fucking foam started to pour out Foam started to the brush! Yeah. Fucking shit, so I've got up fucking like this all the way round and I've do , I've gone round I've gone round the car twice, I thought, that ain't stopped but I did , you don't realise it's stopped cos I didn't hear the bib bib bib bib bib there's so much foam anyway you don't realise there's none coming out the like fine dribbles coming out of fucking put the back, put the jets bit on he rinsed it all down just about got it rinsed and then it gives you like erm a blob like a wax blob, so I put that on there I thought , yeah. this old fucking soaping up again! Shit! This is unfair ! Yeah. So I carried on That's a wipe isn't it? I thought I oh and it must, must be the one round now I think I just about managed to get round the front It before it stopped. I mean I I try it once but shoot everywhere though! Well I'm I went back in and it's come out gleaming . Really is good gets your going but I got fucking wet feet! I don't like using that,. How much do it cost? About, three quid full works, but about Yeah. pound fifty or something for like a shampoo and rinse I mean I'd use it if I go in there. fucking er it was like that but they ain't just don't go and get very close to the like that So I've gone up under arch of the wheel got my like that right state I got in! if you hold it in one hand. Quite a lot of pressure innit? You can't Yeah. let go. I we . Cos a mate of mine with a moustache, didn't have it for long, he fucking ri lighting up a roly, he's gone fer like that, his fucking tash has gone boof! Straight up! Yeah Tuftie's granddad. No granddad hasn't got a tash! you. I popped into the Go on then! Yeah granddad he had er an operation on his , he had it all fucking lamp-shade,light bulb, he's gone Fucking dressing ! it. His fucking nose! Do you ever watch London's Burning? Yeah. Yeah. It's really good. No cos I had I had another fucking ! Yeah. Look at that! See that, we're all fucking erm lying there, glaring under that fucking bit of timber or something. Fucking And there's that bit of wood burning between his boots! Yeah that And Pete's going oh oh oh! And he's goes, does it hurt, does it hurt? He goes I'm alight! I'm alight! Well there's nothing stopping those two! Talk about fucking noses, there's one! Aha! Big nose, big ears, big , big mouth! Big . No way! Fucking nightmare! See you later on,. Where you off to? Gotta see a man about a job. . You stupid pratt! God he's ! Hurry up, he's coming to get you! Sort them out. What the fuck's up with you Stuart? What you got the old earplugs in? Cos these two are whistling . Now do you understand? Shouldn't have asked really, should I. No you shouldn't. Wake up! Can I borrow that little lamp of yours? . What time is it chaps, please? About half eleven. Yeah. Something like that. Eh? Seven thirty seven? It's a happy ! Oh not more naked women Yeah, I don't know he's put oh he needs another book,. Volume five, its about one Here are Tony here's one for you. I get that one. Ah? Bet not give her one. Yeah this is And that a bit of meat there. Oh my god. That's not real flab that I'm telling ya. I know its not, there you go Stew Goodness Some of that. real It ain't, that's better Steven, you wouldn't give anyone There's Robocop Yeah I know, get some like a big shit out . It was broken already so I glued it up, just had a look at it see how I could get it , its broken it again. I would if I had some He throw it away I got some I wanna be, I wanna be a star, oh, oh, oh It worked . in it . What's another boy Mark?, is that where there are three er thirty-two? Yeah No. that's thirty. That's thirty. Thirties late. Yeah thirty is late. Forty is three thirty-two Yeah thanks Chris Forty-four is three thirty-two anyway . Quelle heure est-il old boy? twenty-five past Third time Yeah, but they're nothing but a bunch of wankers speak Don't know. What man, what Sorry? Oh its alright You might have to get it going first. Hold on, that's have a look I said that'll be perfectly alright on there Hold on, wait there, I'll get the better stuff than that Tramp Yeah Yeah, get some shit hot stuff for that He caught his fingers together at work. What's that? Can't we get it on the Yeah, how much did you get then? Oh, its not the not like you see those goodies. Oh yeah next week. Or week after. Its the week after Ah? Next week its supposed to be. Or the week after, just pass the chocolates like you did last choccies, erm its all we've got the old Quality Street. Tin of Quality Street erm,tin of Quality Street, Dundee cake, bottle of Whisky and a bottle of Stones Ginger Wine, all we got last year was a Quality Street and that. You get a What we getting? Yeah, apparently were getting er Quality Street er Dundee cake yeah er a bottle of Whisky and a bottle of Stones Ginger Wine. A fucking cake, I'd rather have a bottle of Gin I'd prefer to that. Its got a bloody tape counter on it Yeah Its right in it? Fuck off. Yeah, got a bag super bag, What's a super bag, super bag Crime heads, of yes it has Super bag its Ah? The old tape Why? Oh, cos, they want recording I suppose. Testing one, two, one, two, yes and the voice Yeah and it picks up here, the erm, tannoy It's not unusual oh to be loved by anyone, da, da, da, da, da, da, its not unusual oh to be loved by anyone Did you see that? Ah? Did you see No, no if I Yeah What was the chicken like mate? Well it put me off a little bit Just like you , yeah man all over the a bit. You know your, he don't love . Yeah, I'll have it in a minute I'm all glued up at the moment. He had a luck ah?, Two black eyes two black eyes, a broken nose, dislocated jaw and sore bollocks Yeah, but he was with the coach and all that Take you home Yeah Oh Oh Mark Oh, see you ain't Na, give it a stir Cos I'm a generous kind of person I was gonna have it anyway. , I was I thought Is it, What? Na, What time is it? Chelsea. Two, twenty eight. Two, twenty eight. twenty nine, something like that. Stew we get erm what the fuck am I doing this I've got two twenty nine Ah? What's the story of this not stuff, are they Probably You can't beat Liverpool Do what? Fuck Liverpool, better than you'll ever Come on you Liverpool Really great I've got a self Ah got another Always look on the bright side of life . Give the old up there the old . Its a nice time sheet It is isn't it? Yeah pin head. Is it pin head? Is that him that keeps doing that or is it fucking Mark ? its Mark Oh since Friday, cut that out The whole fucking weekend to do with it. I just can't fucking swear Your a bad influence Mark. out there. Yeah, its hardly there It cuts my I thought I'd paid that The kids watching time sheet up like that. Still I don't Some bloke outside I don't think I've had one time sheet yet that hasn't been cut up,the last two or three months. just give it the fucking chewed it off completely No, some bloke outside coming in, don't know who it was. Mark probably I don't know fucking tolerant sort of bloke Tolerant sort of bloke, Mm. I'm glad I'm going home at half four tonight I ain't got a No, I have ain't I? I've worked the last five, get out So out you gonna make up your I'm not. I've only got to make up three hours Sorry? I've got to make up three hours . . Sorry? I've got to make up three hours instead of four Yeah Get docked for it then They keep a list of it and when overtime comes back, see I'll have to make it up then, I'd rather do that than re-arrange all my stuff just for that, I usually come in seven o'clock I usually have to come in seven o'clock, that's how I did it and now I've been over here sort of mucks the whole system so I've got a driving lesson tomorrow night, I can't cancel that Yeah. pin head he brought it over to me What's the point of having the then? Well your a super go and get one of them and don't cut a whole out of that bit I think you boil them, I think you boil them Don't forget I've got He laughs anyway Yeah I know Now what happens he'll laugh, all night he'll fucking laugh I know what your trying to say fucking fell on his head didn't it, and the whole fucking shops in uproar. Oh my fucking life Didn't you know he used to be feather weight champion of Scotland paper weight. army did he? Yeah. fucking wrestling. I was lying. Go and ask him. I was lying, He's actually in the guards, he's fucking signed . How can you miss a mouth that fucking big? Well mouth Here are like that I got I think good copy that I the end of the week, I'm just gonna have it up there, only gone and cut that with his fucking as well. I'm getting right annoyed with this now , why's it only me he does it too Fucking stressed out, I'm fucking , fucking serves the cunt right as well, cos we was gonna book eight hours on that fucking job. Yeah, what about the fucking night that we did two and a bit hours and the other little bits and pieces that we've been fucking doing it, I get the impression mate honestly that he hasn't heard of it, I'm not sure about but Chris I don't know, fucking typical Quite funny isn't it? Yeah, fucking I don't know its all a load of bollocks , right old Oh what that one I did? Yeah You were working something extraordinary Ah? Work something out, its rather extraordinary happens to people of the same age as me For what? all on the same day What's that? If I was born on the eleventh of the eleventh of the eleventh right, no if I was born on the eleventh about nineteen hundred, then on the eleventh of the eleventh of the eleventh of the eleventh, announce, that's when I was born zero, six, six, eleventh, eleventh, sixty-six, I was eleven on the eleventh of the eleventh of seventy-seven, I was, I was twenty-two on the eleventh of the eleventh, eighty-eight, I was thirty-three on the eleventh of the eleventh noticed how they're all double all the way through No, all the way through. Spot What? Get the money Oh fuck off Will let yeah Double numbers are, I've, I've got two, one, one. six is my number, then numbers five, one, three, three another double number, I've got erm, in my car at the moment its three, 'C', 'G', Where we 'T', six, six, 'W' I tell you what, I've, I've got a good fucking Look at that? take my box home yeah my box home and everything on Thursday night on a job What? just in case they happen to Born on the eleventh of the eleventh sixty-six, that's a zero, so I was eleventh of the eleventh seventy-seven Will that carry on that carry on No, it won't go into the next century, but it will, it would of done back it would of done backwards the eleventh, the eleventh, the eleventh gone all the way from there Yeah, that's right so obviously it obvious No, not, not everybody's works like that does it? It only happens usually once People born on the eleventh once every every say couple of years its not Its not, its not all the way through it, We that was an all, thirty odd thousand Yeah I suppose so. Yeah, but its not that, everyone of . Stupid, but quite amazing what time you here till half five? No just five. Who's that twit who does the old erm racing for Channel four, bloke with the side burns and funny hat? Yeah something like that. He goes everybody hates nobody wants and all that They fucking brilliant Don Revie, Don Revie he's er manager, Leeds playing brilliant Yeah, they still hold two records Only two straight first division wins. Seemed a bit daft to me though you'd think they, mind you they'd, they'd supposed to of had erm er sub contractors down there, in that, that is disgusting, some of these should of been out of the door the . I mean I've got, some of my best friends are fucking sub contractors as you know, really good friends, I mean Jonesy brilliant friend, a great friend, a nice geezer, er Bill beautifully bloke, really nice, but they should be the first ones out the door, Rumbolds should think more of their permanent staff than they do their fucking contractors staff that's what makes this company work, that's what makes this company worst than all the rest, ok, you get, you get Union companies which are, must employ sub contractors all the time, I suppose times are hard they're the first people who go they don't start laying off the permanent staff I can't see how they can justify one shop without The, the thing is they're, they're the only one with an M O D contract the only ones amongst the How can they have one part of the same company having all this fucking over time while still laying off people I don't know Its not like were a separate division or anything No see British Aerospace there still got to lay off military division, erm, like actually run similar businesses, these aren't lower like the same thing, its not Military Division P L C Yeah Or Division P L C or whatever they've still got eighteen hours overtime a week What,. Saw that Joe verses the Volcano last night and I thought it was absolutely fucking shit mind you was , huh . What time do you make it Stu? I haven't got a watch today Graham what time do you make it? About past Is this the one that has all the yellow Yeah from over there. Better name for him than that but I won't say. What's that, come on, spill the beans look at his face Yeah What's your nickname then Tom? cabbage Cabbage, that's appropriate. Ah, that's my second name. That's your second name Doesn't make me No,so were talking about Boddington's beer man, Boddington's bitter about half Ah, Tell you what about three pints of that, you can real good stuff, so, we, we went up to Blackpool a couple of years back on holiday, and we found this little Sit round the fucking head on it like that, you go what fucking what, real fucking strong beer Boddington's from Manchester fuck up there Right, what've you done?that's not too bad Yeah, but the . Pan Am and T W A are doing internal flights only now in the States aren't they? Did he? Yeah Fucking hell Jesus Christ oh dear, you know what that means econom , the America's biggest airlines goes down the toilet They've not been making money for years though United Airlines and American Airlines I've been told aren't really all that good to fly with, mate of ours went up to the airport to pick his parents up, they just got back from a holiday in and er they flew and a, on a seven hour journey, where ever it was they come from, they didn't have any food, no food, nothing , what they done is they, they, they'd taken a container off, but they hadn't put a new one on. You looked absolutely fucked Stu, what you been up to? Who'd you go out with last night then? running off so Oh, its rarely Have you been I mean will we see you at number one tomorrow? I was old boy I'll have one in the So,in it? What is? This, this week's got Six o'clock till about eight, eight o'clock in it? Something like that. Goes top forty don't it? Yeah just move your body For god's sake cut that down. What you want for the Yeah make up Want to go and get this one up? I thought Ah? No, this is one of er, a bit of a baby teeth come out Yeah, Yeah, this is rock 'n roll Oh Oh, you bringing it down to me save me coming to ask, oh no. How many games did you play then? Just one,play one each. I won, chance in their pockets, win them all, up we go with it. How many points did you clear? I don't know, there were three top knots right, who were, So you be up the second division next year? What you go go, go to men's as well. No, were we on our own like, but I think I never do anything without a You I don't care, I'll just get Crap, Yeah, I know. You play two leagues, were they, were they two leagues?when I, when I was playing pool we played in the Tuesday league and the Thursday league We play Monday, Thursday play Monday and Thursday and then Who'd you play for in the old pool? Went down there? Do you want to play pool mate?, yeah its Red Lion? Right up the A thirty on the left Yeah I think I know that Do you? Go in there turn left, its with the sheep right opposite the barn, played there for years, two trophy's That's, that's before you hit Wentworth in it? Don't know is it? pass the train station, got up the train station on the left Its quite er, unusual village pub in it? You one No Another chair my dear. I'll have to come up there one Monday night and watch him play moosh I don't play down Borehamwood. No they With a We, we, we were playing in the er Alton league at one time, you know, we were doing quite well in that as well we got, one year we come second we got promoted to the first division after our first year, there was only three of their, there were four or five leagues going and they put us straight in the second division and er, but you were going all over the bloody place, you were going as far a field as Petersfield bloody old there was almost, there was one erm, just outside yeah, still you, really it is too far in it?, I mean if they especially if they want you to do in the, the championship's, they, you got the league and then they play er, a knock out competition don't they? Yeah Yeah, we er, we won the, the losers trophy twice, we got first round trophy, got knocked out the first round to go to that, me, half, half the decent teams were knocked out in the first round, you know, we were, we were playing sort of, that, that was, nine times out of ten that was the real cup , I mean we, we were up against the league champions once Where you? thrashed them out of sight, couldn't fucking believe it, when you've seen a pool table, erm, pool game go on for two hours, that's when you know you two hours. How can you play on a pool table for two hours? It was When the balls go in the pocket in all that time Yeah it was tuck Oh fuck that Oh god absolutely awful don't make you yeah. They did well up to well fucking pissed as well, cor Jesus Yeah we played back,obv obviously this, this was sort of , we were Its nice it was about four all sort of, the, the last pair went, went on and on and on, it got to twelve o'clock and the the, the landlord said right that's it he said I'm closing down no matter what , he said I'd, I've, he wasn't eleven o'clock on, he said that's it I can't keep it open any longer , so they closed it down, we called the game off, called it a boring match, they came down the club, fucking played them there, thrashed them out of sight first four games, no first five games, five nil, straight away , wahey,fucking walloped them, walloped their that was the, that was the league champion's as well, Post Office in Grantham These days I was just getting down drunkenly Do you ever do the old speed course? What Yeah. Where you play pool do they just use these red, yellow balls now? Yeah They've changed it again as well, now, now instead of the er, the white ball being placed anywhere in the anywhere behind the black line at the top. Pathetic game in it really? No, its pretty good. some of them Yeah Oh yeah I that. I mean I, I've never, well I once bloody put money into the machine and all these red, yellow balls come out My taken a bit of banging this morning in it?, hot plate a bit of a bashing this morning. You, almost Ah? Working out the profit margin? No, I'm just seeing erm, what's in stock We've got ten game and ask how much profit their making on something Yeah Take an invitation to buy you either set a price or you don't. That's it. I hope he don't ask you how much profit your making on your tax I wouldn't mind. Well, that's how you probably Anybody change fifty P? Erm, I might be able to I can change it Er I think I putting the old car in the garage last night, straight up the this car went slow yeah somebody What you got? they, they started Monday morning, they dug up the concrete they disappeared with the sort of bigger stuff come back in about, Ah? that sandy stuff they lay on the road yeah and erm, then when I got home Monday night, that was how it was just left, you know, so there was about a I must admit I, I was beginning to wonder whether I made a mistake whether I taken on then I popped home Yeah and said can I have some money for me tonight, I said well I was gonna get a cheque out the Abbey National, he said oh no he said work day to day and I thought oh we were talking about it at lunch time, you know, its one of those things that you just don't think about, you know, yeah I said where did you get the tarmac from?,been up London about, on his way to London by about half past four he said well there's, there's, three tarmac places, basically he people like that yeah oh course, you know, its , unless you think about it, the stuff has to be kept hot twenty four hours a day and he said a little bloke like me, I mean all these yeah but I mean they work on a sort of cash basis and er the lorries just drive up, get loaded up, course you just have to queue, he said if you get behind six or seven lorries by the time you've got your load then you've got to get back to where your doing the job, then you've only got about two or three hours daylight left, this is why these, these obviously go round there, say do three or four in one area and you get one load get it out get the job done, you know, and when his paid out cash that time of the morning they the don't care you have to pay yeah rather than walk round with wads in your pocket every day, they liked to be able to work on a day to day pay system how much more well that's right, yeah I mean, I but er yeah, well yeah I mean one of the blokes I he said just over a pair of Just over a what? just over pair of houses that was built. yeah. nice pair of thatched houses. Bloody right He can get away from by the time he's all the money he That's what happened to me old man in the cleaning business, I mean with you could write your own cheque virtually, but they, they had sort of like a three year, three year back log on painting,they just didn't pay anybody. This is it, I mean big , it was embarrassing when I was in the garage, but yeah, you do say yes, then they come back and then go sorry your you want to get up and Yeah, my mate thought I was going to his, his old man's a builder and er, he's a good worker and he's trouble getting the money out of him. Yeah a lot of people don't quite understand why But the building game is anyway yeah What I made out of I mean a lot of small businesses, small business, its like paying Russian roulette every single day. I don't know where How much Yeah What he does, when he goes out the, to put a Nothing need surprise me somebody went said this bloke never advertise at all its all word of mouth, Yeah wouldn't do a lot of work, but the work he does yeah, I just want certain amount of money a day say ten per cent of , yes Erm alright , my brother so I went out to Yeah and I bought this I mean I cos I wasn't paying cash wanted . Cor, they're expensive They are aren't they? yep they charged me thirty six quid for a plus V A T, plus a fiver till I bring back the other one. You'd gone in Blondies next door you might got it a bit cheaper and you can take yourself. I wanted Yeah starter motor start right underneath the exhaust starter motor this is going back must be a few years , we were laughing and figuring sort of, you know,this bloke back of the garage in the end he said we give him the bill and said yeah you can soon run out Your looking at the head on, its on the right hand side and the only you can get it so I don't really bet how much put on it cos I don't want to get out of my , done it all properly and that . I'm fucking absolutely got no till tonight. Absolutely for this week He was a day short last week weren't he? Yeah, Worked out right, but not in sort of, I've bought some but including the rest of them I've got about a hundred pounds spending. What out of South Africa. No, in this country up until Christmas I've got about a hundred pound include, including getting Christmas presents, from now too December the twenty-sixth. Oh dear. Yep Somebody's going to get some shitty Christmas presents then No, somebody's going to fucking go into their three hundred quid overdraft. Yeah I've only bought three or four presents yeah, count them at the moment. I've only bought one present Ah? wasn't that er Oh right. Oh its silly, it depends how many ca come, well obviously how common the car was Yeah somebody right, by when quite cheap, cos it was fucking Oh yeah , well you wouldn't go to a breakers would you? I mean how many Ferrar , Ferrari's end up in breakers? Oh Yeah, nine times out of ten Who was that, who was nine times out of ten these It's just body work Well the engine erm between cars Yeah, the got to actually change the starter motor erm I mean on the A D fifties and the two litre they I would sort of, its only a hundred and fifty cc, but the next biggest thing they did was stopping er, a sixteen hundred so quite a lot of those, but nine times out of ten all they did was another part, so I, I, actually heard that the R S two thousand were, were quite reliable out of most of the sports car, but they did, did have to buy a they were quite expensive, same as top of the range car and their, their top of the range of car was parts of them, especially if they, they, they stopped making them in Same as a Herald eleven year old a Herald was funnily enough because they made so many fucking Herald's, you can get parts for them really easy, I mean Dolomite fifteen, thirteen's, eighteen fifty you can get no problem, any part you want, no problem, but cos its a quick car, people have either fucking killed them or crashed them they've crashed them, they didn't make many of them. Frankly, I couldn't afford the fees No whatever I get from this there's gonna be Fucking garage there's gonna be a big park and, and In who's garage? at your garage. Haven't got a your old man said, old man's in there. What I mean we've got, four, four, four cars in our house, the gran lives in the granny annexe inside, god knows how the fucking hell she got a parking space, somehow she did, mum's got her's in there, my old mans parked his opposite, we've got a big double drive as well, my old man parks his on the right and I park mine on the fucking left, its like a parking lot out there in the mornings, and if when he says When, when your brother yeah, he he start driving hasn't started driving yet, but if for instance, erm, I've left my car out, just left it in, in the way, cos nobody nobody said they were gonna go out and all of a sudden they wanna go out before I get up or something, fucking this cars reversing here, fucking everywhere, but that, and that still got a outside me house its as bad as our house , I say the secret in our house drove cars is three cars parked out the front,so you've got a bit of grass, three cars parked there, you're not allowed to park on the dri , drive,,sometimes parking round the front, but The other thing is, I mean, whatever I get back its gonna be a big part of my spending money, so if I don't stay see it in there? in the paper today, it should be, so if I don't get any, put it this way if I don't sell it before Christmas Well you've still got that two grand of whatever yeah, that's what I'll do, I'll just take some out of that and replace, but I, I've said, I, I'm never gonna touch that I'll be well unhappy if I do, cos I been in real dodgy situations with money and still resisted the temptation to take, touch that money. Yes. yeah, you know. You're not sure we'd let you have any if we did yeah, what's ain't it? before it dipped it in the canal yeah. last time I went fishing, got Yeah we . I heard about you and your old Mm, just wait till we see him then. Oh shit that might be, you mean recorded for posterity Tape annoyance, can I sing a song? Go on then. Er, what song do you want? Not really, we don't want any songs if you've haven't seen one then for fucks sake do, er don't know what to say, I've gone all shy Its not like you Ah? its not like you no, good job this is Manage to speak to me mum and dad,contact with Did you? No, I'm going to go to I tell you what, I don't suppose you could persuade her to get me some contact Yes I could can't you get bi-focal contact lenses? Yeah, yeah, I've know that, that's been on the market for about a year, year and a half now . I've, I've never seen it , well I've, I've, I've only had contact, I've had these, this last set of contacts for about two years now, that's why I want to get some new ones and erm How much are they nowadays? Tint, tinted ones , there's coloured ones, there's all sorts You can get coloured can't you?, I know they've been doing that for ages. John if I, I, I never got that and er she's got big red different coloured lenses, she's got white outlines Yeah like old Crawley what's his face, the forge, where's he oh yeah Star Trek he's got a pair of them. Can you see through them? , yeah no point if you can't No well no, I just wondered, I mean totally in it? Yeah, but they're not are they? Those, those ones are complete cover over, just got the No, this is one to re-cover over Yeah I would of thought yeah you can only get re-cover overs No, I went for contact lenses, he, he just said look, there are lots of ones on the, the market, but I suggest you have these, bloody shape of them, Yeah you get, you get, blue ones which make your eyes bluer than You can get ones that implant sort of colours Yeah actually when I think my eyes, my eyes go dark green, fucking they're almost like translucent green cos the are all fucking walk into a shop and the girl, the girl goes oh you look tired, you think, yeah, yeah, you know, still fucking red you know, that's what I I don't get red , I've never have done I, its only sort of over the past sort of half year, and I don't know why, they never started, started to go red Did they when they You're supposed to change you contacts at least once a year Yeah er, apparently after that you can start risking infection, and they get hard and everything, that's what I've noticed My, My get mine in now my aunty gets, gets them back and she says they come back, she, she actually them, and she, she cuts them into the, the shape, of the Iris yeah, and er, she gets them back and er they've got to go through about twenty different processes before they're allowed out the shop, or out the storage, cos even then, when they're in store, they're, they're, some of them come back as cracked, you get ones coming back from er customers sort of thing, been and they come back and they've got pins in them, they've got bloody great er bits on the outside,of the outside . I've got the like I don't know what it is, they've got like the little triangular something on one of the things, its right on the edge of the like a little white mark on it, that's I, I get it sometimes, I, I tell you what I can't get it off, I've soaked it in , yeah if, if you go for a swim right, and you with your contact lenses in, I always wear my goggles over the top, I mean obviously if you dive yeah and you open your eyes, you miss the, the contact right, but always and er, it so you take them straight out, and you've got to clean them virtually straight Well I swim with mine in and I haven't noticed anything I don't know, maybe its just me Well you are a bit drunk if you happen to get anything in your eye, right the, the thing I found was, if you just close your eye and then open it again, your contact lens would come up with your No, I've never had a problem like that Yeah You see, I didn't realise I thought there was a soft or hard, but there's actually soft and then there's Yeah. allow and they reckon that soft ones are better suited too sports because, because of the great action they're harder to, to knock out, whereas soft ones er, have better other qualities, I've got this little fucking book, book that I picked up in the Boots in Farnborough the other day yes, its quite interesting. Hard ones have better greater durability and that er vision and that's it, all the others is, is fair I don't know, I say I found my ones brilliant they are Yeah, but , but I'm just saying they reckon on this, its like, they had a little chart, its either fair, good or excellent and like all the others there was like vision and wear and stuff and the vision of that erm, durability and vision capabilities were excellent on the, on the erm Hard ones hard ones, yes, and just good on the and soft ones. but if you think about it, there is the hard ones can have a lot better can't they, I mean the only thing that'll actually harm them is that if you get poked in the eye or something and it shatters the lens cos they are actually you can now get non shatter proof car lenses, shatter Shatter shatter proof car lenses non shatter proof. non shatter proof, whatever, non shatter I think they say What you want? Got any tens? No, I've got Why's everybody after tens? Yeah, so I can get a kit kat Kit kat Do you want tens I wonder now, I The ravenous four What did that come out like? I don't know and I thought my sister did. Your sister did, Do you actually do any fucking work?and especially that McEwan whoever he is Ah? especially that McEwan geezer, whoever he is Yeah I said oh steady on Yeah I know your sort Michael, you use them to use people, then you throw them away, so they don't matter Must be doing a lot of I do. Ah? you take the high road and I'll take the long road and I'll be in Scotland Ah shit, erm Alex Yeah erm re-spray this and er Do you have any round here? No, Yes. What do you think I'm doing here? Had them all set up at one stage. Funny old day again. Yeah, I wish you'd stop fucking saying that. What are my You start fucking I'm going home. I've enough you get Dave like that Yeah exactly We go Erm, two Surprised I could fucking walk this morning Ah? Did your friends the bonny, bonny of the Yeah Fucking, Worse one I had was to go and get some elbow grease. this guy Jim I nearly like that he was like a . I did fucking, I did five years of normal paperwork and plus for the last three years I did double as well cos I got kicked out of french, so I was in metal work like, four hours of metal work every week the last three three years and, cos I was like nine times out of ten I was the only bloke there, the er, the er metal work teacher got on really well, he was showing me all sorts of stuff and I never got to do the actual metal work lesson well nine times out of ten yes, everybody else was in french lesson. Oh. yeah, This is why I had the right attitude when I first got to British Aerospace,anybody any, any anything anybody could tell me about how to fucking like that Yeah cos I had a right old attitude, I mean, I mean, I know it sounds modest, but, I was doing it well, don't get me wrong, I was doing it, and I, but then it started getting a bit Sort of a bit too advanced , stuff that I never got and all of a sudden I was still saying I could do it and I couldn't any more so I, took me ages to get rid of that reputation cos why I know about you see, I forgotten what fucking hard too get rid of it Yeah, even get rid of it too bad With us,need, need a bit of a mouthy Yeah. Dave I wasn't saying oh I know it all, you can't tell me how to superior attitude Yeah fucking wasting my time six months. the bastards. But the fact is I have done it all, up till about the first six months there and then I started getting well, well out of my league, you start getting the machining and stuff like that, I haven't done much on them at all. But I still, no I was still saying oh yeah I can do this, getting in a right old state boys will be boys. I wanted to be a machining but I was . That was probably the most, the in , the most interesting form friendship in there,its fucking good, I went for a job in there, but I couldn't I was an apprentice , as I say that, that's what got me going really was the fact that he had to go down and actually do a design of the and he had to work on the I think that's technically a, a draughtsman though is it, that's more like a more what we call a design commission. Something like that, yeah. But everybody get it, Yeah every , but all, all the draughtsman unless they were just called We always used to play the like you never see what is going on and never know the problems involved in being , that, that was what was good about the, the R A interview . Yeah, but they're, they're much more keyed up probably their design programme is probably much more advanced than most other places The whole idea originally is the R A was to get them we can design as well Yeah so I mean though, I suppose that they probably had erm things they The, the most efficient wing in the world is seven hundred mile an hour, it, it was a flying pig at, at seven hundred and thirty. Ah, ah, sorry? Yeah Yeah, like I said what's, what's the people's most efficient wing in the world, seven hundred mile that could be a flying pig, but why all of a sudden technology started in. See I don't really know much about planes to be honest with you. There, there is planes, but there is no want the, the world's most efficient because like I said that the efficiency changes at different, different level Yeah speeds, altitudes, stuff like that. See some different characteristics and a supersonic and so that then, so the elevator and control services because at supersonic speeds, if you moved at the same distance, at six hundred mile an hour the elevator went like that, so that sort of you're not fucking throwing the plane out of control or the elevator would rip off or something, I mean if you get the same sort of thing probably would only have to do that, break the surface a little bit. The, we Think how much like we did two years theory as well, no three years theory There's a, there's a lot of dead people not dead cos their dead because they've died of old age, dead because they were trying to find out how things work. Yeah We flying a glider or throw themselves of the bridge, if it doesn't work they die, somebody learns from that, you know, I know it, it really was a fucking this, this has been the most extreme of trial and error ever Let's face it a war is the, the biggest single event that can increase technology in the electronics and radars two men on a fucking single budget, two men on something like a three hundred pound a year budget or something silly. Like behind us, up behind where I live at Sandhurst thirty years now. The prin I mean the principal of radar that's fucking fascinating, the did a programme on it, That's, that's where they go on and the first sort of thing they ever had was just like a little screen it just went blip and that's it, all they could tell you was there was something in their vicinity, it couldn't tell you what direction it was or what height or anything. That was developed up at Yeah , and then from that they've now got these fucking things that show the direction, the sign, the speed and oh its incredible sonar's been going longer than radar, but only just we were the world leader's now, I mean we cos we, cos we preserve fuel, we knew exactly, they left it for the last minute to get up there and intercept them. That's right all of a sudden they're They reckon Germany done about ten, fifteen minutes combat time over the, over the only once who had any staying power with a high But then again they were no match to . I mean we, we say the . In nineteen thirty there was something like there was only about er ninety, hundred spitfires in the Battle of Britain all the rest were fucking Hurricane's and stuff Do they still do that? No, that's been cut out, same as the blue ribbon crossing the Atlantic blue ribbon event. Even though, even though er thingy trying to do ain't they? The last, the last, the last liner oh yeah, the last liner to actually do it is erm the Queen Mary's say the Queen Mary I mean the Queen Elizabeth, Q E two never even went into that like an average steamer, thirty five knots or something Yeah that's fucking going some for a ship that size I would love to have be able to fly with the or something yeah cos that really was flying you know, that was, no, it was none of this fucking press a button and let the, just a computer do it, you're a computer technician, you're a pilot now, but this fucking Eddy, Eddy the , yeah real, there's, there's quite a few reputable Oh yeah but there's only one real Oh yes the shame like that as well there's only one Lancaster still flying, and there's no Wellington and Well there are, if you go there's no Wellington's if you go to Hamdon there aren't any original Wellington's flying because this is why they got Oh no, not flying , no, oh yeah cos they its like lots of as well but this is why Its only this is why they were so excited about this one they found in the Lock, in the, in er Loch Ness, because it was in such superb condition and they actually reckon they can get it flying again. its only one short as well Look at all the, look at all the Brian . called defiance, ever heard of that then? There's only three, yeah three they reckon left in the world and they found one with a Japanese are still quite, quite around a lot, there's not many of them, there are about fifteen, twenty, there's not that many P fifty one Mustang's either crying shame in it? twenty-five bombers. There's quite a few of them, cos they were Yeah they the by erm old air America in the early indo China wars. They're quite, they're quite common actually, I mean there was a couple up at Black Wood Yeah, the only ones left in this country they've erm,erm fifty-eight's up at Black Bridge, they used to be three of them there and, one of them was used in the plane one of them was used in the er film, no er, what's the Richard Burton er Clint Eastwood film? Where Eagles Dare Where Eagles Dare, erm their flying the See I, I didn't eith I didn't either realise, right That was just, that was Blackbush that helicopter's were fucking around during the second World War but they, they were I think the first, the first helicopter flight was thirty seven weren't they? No, the first V T O Flying yeah, the first V T O L, no thirty-five thirty-five, I think its sort of thirty-six that was V T O L What's that? If you think about it, the whole fucking been going since the early six , mid sixties Yeah, and they haven't changed at all. That's a fucking there is still no other bird that can take off one but its actually the same I was gonna say which is, is as good , ah, no its not virtually the same, it looks the same but they've got three engines in it. Have they?, What's that? Its something like the erm, the legions The Russians or something like that. the legions, something or other will do it, the Russian versions a harrier, its got three engines in it. Certain Its got, its got er one the downward thrust, one for an angled thrust and one for level thrust, and its got a, they reckon its got about a twenty minute range if it takes off vertically Are you yeah but they've got fucking, just fuck off with the dust Didn't go in your coffee, sorry Yeah, but its all around in it? I don't need any more with fucking stupid come along with everywhere . Yeah, the, its like the old Yeah that, that's not supersonic ah? that's not supersonic trouble is that, that, that's got and then they've got the, they've got, its about two or three, they got, they, they never had money to trouble is, is We can't, we can't afford to build any more Concorde's,it costs too much They're only about twenty years old, ain't they, they sixties Concorde ain't they? Sixty nine I mean if Britain will, will be Did you see that helicopter flying backwards? Yeah Supposed to be, supposed to be the only one that does that. No, all helicopters fly backwards Oh you mean loop the loop yeah, they also fly backwards there oh they there are two or three that can do it, not many though, that's what I said two or three yeah that's right technically, if they get Yeah that, that Oh yeah, that's the, the erm the only one of its kind got a little jet outside, jets at the back What about . no, one I've seen can do it. the one I've seen is the one without the tail ropers, its just got a little jet out yeah stop the centre stop the erm lever This one had er a have a little can't remember what it was. Bells was the maker of it, did a project on it Gets you, the reason why helicopters haven't been able to do loop the loop unless they've got a lot of height, is because, obviously it pulls you up yeah so if you doing that,doing that keep you up in the air, right, keep doing that you'll go that way, when the helicopter's you want to do that way, so obviously like that when its like that it tries and pulls you down, and this is why there was an accident with a Wessex or something or a Sea King a while ago, where three or four people died, cos it just didn't get enough height and as, as it got to the top it just pulled it straight down to the ground, it couldn't, it didn't have enough height to clear the circle Was that a, a Sea King or something, about ten, ten years ago or something, try to do a, a loop a loop air show and crashed I wouldn't it was one of these big things, a Sea King or Wessex or something like that I remember, I remember didn't really they should of that's what I said it pulls them down, erm the Apache can do it now at any height apparently erm and the , there are, there are two or three particular copter's now They've got no pulls you up do that goes that way, does that goes that way so you're upside down you see, you've not only got weight and gravity pulling you down you've also got the thrust of the engine pulling you down as well, and the only way the helicopters going to be able to do it is by getting enough height so they can sort of drop like that and they start dropping and they can just pull it back I remember it as, I think, I think I think I remember there was like three or four people inside it or something, certainly wasn't a still hold the erm air speed one of them new yeah the engines wings are down, yeah sixteen engines four four, four wing mile on each worlds biggest air . The old galaxy department er, galaxy class as a enterprise erm, the old er galaxy air lift plane with the as well The Russian's build this things but they haven't got the money to finance them yeah they haven't got the money to keep them running commercially they had the money to commercially run them, they built, they built a well beaten aircraft and they haven't got half the technical advantages that the West has and their computers has still, practically just got out of the stage. A mate of mine he says he won't tell you for about three or four years. Eight twenty-seven, eight twenty-nine Eight twenty-seven, twenty-eight, twenty-nine A well beaten aircraft I mean I, I heard a stupid story, that instead of like, the, the twenty-seventh, twenty-eight and ninth come over here, but the was still, was still using a radio and stuff taken out the pre war stuff, that's how far their radio technology and communications come on. Yeah With the old F sixteen its like a couch, you sit like that, its just the joy stick in your right hand and you've got all your buttons there, whereas the old Russian one's just a p , a normal sit up and on a joy of a column, its amazing how they fly,make those flew once they do ah? Yeah, but A mate of mine actually worked in a mate of mine actually worked out in Russia and he said you know,piece of discussions about when, where the Russian's sort of appear first and this sort of he said he said erm, this, he said that, that kids running around on the streets of Moscow is actually given a working permit and so he could actual work there and sort of like er one of the top in the, the company and er he said that there are kids Mm, I mean you've told me this before Mark, well I, I said to you kids are fucking running around with just nothing on their feet right, that's it, you've, you've told me this three times and I've told you several times as well, the, the Russians put everything they've got into military technology, just because, just because their kids are still running around They don't they've still got , they've still got no military technology they've got one of the biggest armies in the wor , they have so got the biggest army in the world so, its all on script and they and th , what I am saying is they produce, they produce stuff like the twenty-eighth and twenty-ninth, don't be fooled because their kids haven't got enough to eat and stuff they haven't, that's, that's the time to worry they, they still haven't got any, as you say they haven't got anything to eat, I mean what's the point of you putting Yeah, but their military has everything into military, no they haven't even now the military get the best of everything that was, that was it , that was it, even now, the economy is ruined, there's nothing there but I would still bet you that, I'm not gonna say that, that their eating well, but they'll, they'll be eating, they'll be eating twice the amount of as a civilian that's what I'm saying Mark, what, no matter what the state of the economy, the Russian military will be at the best it can be which will be yeah, but three or four times better than the civilian's some of the guys out there, you know, the Russian people don't want to start anything you know, but also they, they feel they haven't got the technology we have no, I mean its obvious that for , for a start their tanks are still man powered, their still tanks no you know, he, he said, he said he said there's still some of the tanks are still still some of them but he said, he said. but every front line regiment in the Germ , in Germany had, they were the first tank regiment to get completed with er, er, computer optic sights and stuff Are you sure? I should know, I was, I mean ask Mark, you know, how many people are the are, its very naive to think that, that their civilians are in a, in a poor way but their military is as well. It maybe in a poor way compared to what the West get that's what changed but they've got so much there's eight tanks or something to every fucking one of ours yeah, so what seven combat planes you've got to you, you none, none fucking fifty men none of their tanks have been tested really Afghanistan look what the Afghanistan did too them. look what the fucking Vietnamese did too the Americans and the Americans went in their heavier numbers and more concentration yeah, ok the than they went into Afghanistan you, you are trying to determine gorilla war, right, but it doesn't how much technology you've got, because Afghanistan and the Vietnam proved that, but tried, tested and proved yeah, the cheaper being phased out yeah obviously they're being phased out challenge for us, the right yeah but on the other hand you've got the T eighty eight the T seventy two which is, that's only like the Correan one but its still got one of the, the erm, the longest range, and the most accurate canons on any tank still, I said the, the Russian military's got some of the best in the world and that's giving the fact that they haven't yeah the, the state of their population yeah exactly and I think where they cos they population starts getting that desperate that's the time when we've got to worry no the Russians are just, just mad enough to fucking go for it no because they'll do what they, they've always done there send their military in and they'll they'll say you aren't having this, you aren't doing that, I mean obviously Gorbachev's I mean this stage, he'd just send the tanks in by now, he plagued Yugoslavia crushed so what happened to all this Yeltsin thing right, has has it been so much build up, speculation of the West, you say thirty years of build up on our part is being wasted, we've really got nothing to fear of the Russians? No I don't think we have, but I think they'll probably be a Civil War first well yeah now, but you, you were saying this, we, we had this conversation when I'd first got here, before any of this started to happen I, I, I don't think that you Here you are we don't really have anything to obviously we got to have fears, because there's something to be , they're the largest nation in fucking Europe so everybody's got to fear them, because they co-hearse all the other into being part of their group and that sort of stuff gotta be lets face it, if, if Russia had wanted to declare war, to, declared war on us, sort of right ten years after the second World War had finished, and that would of been it, Europe would of been out we always did because they were scared just because they were just as scared of us as we are of them nuclear weapons yeah, exactly, but other its not just that if we, if there was no nuclear weapons I reckon we would of, probably would of been at war with Russia now yeah, that's, that is it, that's what I've said er, got there's one reason, one reason why but all these talks, all these talks I would never of er voted Labour yeah, cos its not a union that it isn't the biggest deterrent in the world backed by . But like I said Mark, er the mil , NATO never used to think that they can hold the Russian's for very long in, in conventional warfare's You're telling me that we've got nothing to fear from them? ah?, see, this, this is one of why has there been such a Star Wars plan? Why has there been such a, a, thing in the fifties and sixties for buying and that sort of stuff? you, you, keep can't actually tell until it does happen until something does happen and then you know how well that each side is prepared. All I know is that there are better people in, that, are more intelligent people that are better informed about than me or you and they deemed it that we've got something to fear against and I'm willing to take that. Fear against? Fear against them , I still wouldn't put it past them, I'm not saying they will, I'd be very surprised if they did try to get cos they're cos they're on the sort of er the brink of being excepted by the rest of the world again, you know, but up until a couple of years ago, this thing happened, you know conventional warfare were and they only way we can stop them is by nuclear warfare's and you think part of the fear is er Russian causing the fear that communism is now spread three fold around the world. Yeah you're going on as if , you started off on the fact that you don't think we've got any fear of them cos their kids are running round on the street and now all of sudden you say we have because they've got nuclear weapons you say. No, I, I just said do you think after Oh yeah, yeah by the which was because, one of state yeah I'm saying it does, yeah one minute shall forcibly put upon the world well yeah by force that's why the, the McCarthy witch hunt and stuff, the hippies that there is that fear, that is because that is the second World War this is why the erm the er late thirties, early forties was never gonna succeed, because they had two completely different archaeologist, plus now in their purest form their not that but in the they were, they were never going to work, I mean that is the fact that their communists, the sole reason they've been against each other for a hundred and fifty years there is no other reason if they were capital capitalist you wouldn't have a problem. that's why, that's ever since bolshevism first started in nineteen, seventeen yeah exactly , but I think er but then again since, up, up until the mid forties we had nothing to fear from the because they, they didn't have much of an army themselves, they had millions and millions of men but no resources or facilities to build it The Germans feared them yeah because they had, that, that's why shear weight of numbers that's why, that's why during the first World War, Germany made a categor categoric statement that Russia should start disarming, she was mobilising yeah but shear weight of numbers like I mean America, America and Britain Red army American and Britain are partly responsible for the way the Russians are now cos we finance most of their industry in the second World War yeah that's right but I mean what can you do I mean she was an Russian was a , she wants the bear necessity . All the reason that we have been against each other is because of economism and we, we but did, did have and I'll still say the only reason we haven't been at war with them is because of the army, arm oh yeah neutral wise, yeah I was thinking venturialise as well, I mean we can't, we can't we hoped to we couldn't never hoped to match them during the second World War, one German found three hundred, four hundred Russians took them prisoner second World War yeah, took them prisoner second single handed, I mean After the second World War they didn't have a economy in the second World War, now they have the Russian have fucking one of the most powerful forces, I mean up until the Stalingrad in Moscow, the, the battle of Stalingrad they didn't know if they at all. They were wearing cardboard boots that froze in the winter yeah exactly Yeah but I mean up until Stalingrad that was it, the, the Russian army was nothing, right, but as soon as Stalingrad came in every day I can't see what the point is that was more than forty-five years ago yeah, what I'm trying to say is that, that the Germans,on one German captured about four hundred blokes what's that got to do with modern day warfare and stuff? well, I don't know its got nothing to do with it I know but what all going on is the history, that fact is since the mid-fifties we, we have had dealings cos they've been one of the stronger of the world yeah, no, no nobody knows how, how they, how they do things, they've never opened up their army to us but I, I don't know how they get there but they know how our army works, we know how their army works, we cannot hide manoeuvre's and every army in the world knows the manoeuvre's I've been on one big NATO manoeuvre out in Germany right, and you're saying to me they don't know how I, how each army works no I'm saying that why why do military on our side say that we'll gonna get fucked in conventional war?, we would hold them, we would hold them shear weight of numbers for a year or two years shear weight of numbers yeah that's all, nothing else yeah, matter why we've got anything to do if it was one on one, we wouldn't have anything to do, but it is the fact that they have got good technology, good materials and they are that much more than us, their troops aren't as well trained as ours yes, yes that's, that's one of the class of their, their supply routes aren't as well defined as ours, but they've got shear weight of numbers, see, I'm af , I'm afraid, I could be a fucking karate black belt or something right, so one on one against you I wouldn't have a problem, but if you went and got fucking thirty of your mates I would have a problem, I maybe able to hold you off for a fucking few minutes or something or if you could either contact, maybe a few months or years or something, but they will win yeah and this is why military strategies have always said we were gonna get we could hold them for a year, two years maybe three, but in the preventional warfare we would start loosing and military strategy have always said along that it would probably be somebody like France or us that would first use the nuclear weapon Me you fat fart, well he's a fat fucker Fuck off This is really What'd you mean? You ain't still recording it are you? No, its . Th the doctors over there need a lot to be desired, I mean that what's, what's his name the eldest son of er Jim and, Jim's next door neighbours, what's their, their names? Who? The one who cut his hand Cody's brother Adam yeah, I mean he's supposed to be a surgeon or a doctor ain't he? No trainee ain't he? No trainee ain't he? Cor fucking hell. specialise yet has he? Woe betide anybody who becomes ill in Australia that's all I can say I mean the thing is why is Neighbours put on twice a day cos I don't believe in Wasn't Bobby Davro good last night on the Wogan show, that's, that's why they put Neighbours on twice a day because they can't believe think so. Twenty million viewers can't be wrong twenty million as well I never forget Benny Hill once got talking about Sun readers, there was this girl and she, she was stood on this podium and she, she's talking to The Express and The Guardian and going like that and their taking photographs of her and then you sort of pan round, the camera pans round and you've got The Star and the Sun going like that fucking its really funny,The Sun and The Star in it Bit down for somebody's mate who was four hundred and nine, was it four hundred and twenty seven million out the pension or something, What's that? the Maxwell group , Maxwell group What the old Maxwell group, yeah its good ain't it ah? what they reckon ah, is it five hundred million five hundred million or something, four hundred and thirty of that or something was out of his pension or weren't it? Yeah that's a lot of yeah reckon all his shortly before his death. Might as well carry on recording, Ah? just stop it Paul what? How's it go again? . But there again its the same as Murdoch in it? That's what I'm saying how did he knew that He's got too many fingers in too many pies ok one groups making, one groups making a million pound a day, where another groups loosing a million pound a day or loosing two million pound a day, if you've got too many fingers in too many pies soon adds up yeah if you think about it, he was, he was the only rival to, to sort of Rupert Murdoch I mean they've got a yeah that's it,your talking what, six million pound for a player or player now, its a , yeah its like some of the, the teams what's it, where's video?, Oxford Derby, Watford and he was after Something very dodgy going on at Maxwell group They say it takes football league Yeah, to, to run a football club say I wouldn't mind say about a hundred million pound a year would you say that? Ah? to run a football club about a hundred million a year? about fifty million a year its a hell of a lot. Yes especially the mega bucks they pay these footballers, four or five Who's the most expensive player? John Barnes probably Real Madrid or Juventus or something Sampdoria Sampdoria , why'd you think the ain't doing so well? . Its like me old man was saying well old fucking Jim Davidson came in and said er er Bernard Manning is by far the best stand up comedian in this country Who and he always will be, Jim Davidson said, said about Bernard Manning, he painfully said er, er Bernard Manning is, is, the best stand up comic in this country and probably always will be and he turned to Jim Davidson, big headed bastard, and he goes no cheeky yeah he goes I know I am Jokingly or no serious, he goes none of you bastards can touch me,fucking hell this was with a pair of glasses he took off, he didn't do a very good Michael Caine, he did er Jimmy Greaves and er Dennis Nordon, Gazza really fucking well you know,he did a brilliant Robin Williams So how comes Mr Caine yeah Is it? its number one I wanna see that yeah so do I Jeff Bridges I might just go and see that on Saturday I Ah? Robin Williams He's one of a small Ah? I said he's one of a small Yeah I I think he is fucking brilliant who ? Yeah, yeah it all comes down to personal taste yeah who do you like then? Steve Martin, er yeah John Don't like No. No What time we knocking off? What time is it please? Janet is my favourite, Jasper Carrot along-side Chubby Checker She does bollocks as far as I'm concerned yeah Who? Jasper Carrot I quite like him. yeah I like him as well, but he's not exactly a or Dan Ackroyd Just cos he's not a, he's not a big star in the States a bit fussy and Ben Elton not not any, not any good anywhere else No I just said I like him as well but I know, but he's not he's not a fucking big, he's only big in this country No he's big in Australia, New Zealand what he's got big any, any of those I was just saying I bet you , but I was saying any way I like er, I can't do it any more he got out this little diary he's got and he was going he's got another one who does they hear his screams sort of thing put its in yeah puts the letter to his sock, fucking whirls it round and stuff fucking hilarious yeah they way, way he I mean he's took a bite out of it or something he had this tea in his hot water bottle and he that's it like that oh that's right he's taken a bite and he's fucking spurting water all over the that's him with his million and fucking I, I, the only ones I've seen is why yeah, that, that bloke his got his fucking, there's this bloke he's got his sun glasses on and he thinks his er sun bathing, so he got this fucking what's it, his trousers on still and he's trying to get his trunks on and his trousers on still cos this blokes there, he's fucking going from all this and that yeah, right he manages to get them on and he takes off his trousers, and fucking blind folded him, he gets up and trunks through his trousers and that's why I Its the attitude cracks me up, oh, every thing he's ever done makes me laugh yeah the only one I don't like is that bloody oh erm, what's the other one, deep sea water, something lately for kids, his got his own kiddies programme, Maid Marian, take the piss out of Oh that is Tony Robinson are you sure? Black the Forgery. I, know he was in Black Adder Yeah its Bawdry, its not Rowan Atkinson He's done lots of kiddies things, he's had an and all sorts in there , but I mean are fucking funny, I don't think , I don't think Griff Rhys Jones and Mel Smith are that funny No, Hale & Pace are Oh I do , I like Hale & Pace Hale & Pace are sometimes they make me piss myself and sometimes I think that was , sometimes they're nine times out of ten I fucking love a I like erm they're better than the other fucking superb, I think some of Its alright for some but I think yeah I was gonna say its a bit, if your a real Steve Martin fan and he's done, everybody's but if your not much of a Steve Martin's fan then Yeah but him and Robin Williams The Jerk is probably his best, his best film ever, I thought that What? The Jerk and Roxanne yeah, yeah and Roxanne I didn't think The Jerk was deliberately funny but it was, it was I thought it was fucking hilarious a superb film just the, just the whole idea, the whole concept of it, I'm just but it cracked, cracked me up is these fucking songs that make you take and he keeps hiding behind the oil can yeah he thinks his shooting the oil can, and he keeps diving behind these oil cans and takes cover and that, he said oh no not an oil can and fucking little bullets, bullet I was born a poor black boy down in Mississippi, out in Alabama and he's like a jet white ain't he? and he says I always felt different cos all the other kids they just sit there and they'd be tapping their feet and then you go onto the oh and they're getting the old rhythm going, like they do and he'd be going like I all so different I couldn't quite do this and he used to get in look, and er and he goes er, he goes ma ma and he goes off the big city ma ma, like this and he's got a fucking flying helmet and a flying bucket yeah and he's sitting outside and he goes, he's mum goes well he's been out there two weeks and he's still stood there in the same spot and he's going like that yeah and he said oh and well I sure was lucky cos here comes a lift and he gets in, he goes right, he's taken his prize jogs about fifteen yards and says bye thanks for the lift and he stood about fifteen yards further on from the street, there's bits in it that is fucking funny, he's made it rich and all this and he's happy bloke, he get's his girl friend oh in the shit, his fucking gone clang, this blokes got his fucking nuts and the next thing he sees is a big fucking plaster balls alone and he's, he's got up his wife, he's having a right old night with here and he's leaving, and he says I don't need you, I didn't need Way of the World. its T V remote control though he said I don't need you, I just need this fucking remote control this desk lamp he's got his trousers round his ankles you know, he just cracks me up, black parents. yeah he goes, I'm gonna offer to him his gonna find him more work get me , find me more work he goes cos next week he's gonna give me a blow job if I'm lucky and none , none of the others, they've had this one sort of older black guy and his fucking pissing themselves and all the others going why that sure is nice of that little girlie, cos she's a real fucking ain't she she ended up she goes to him can you do this like, this and he goes well he goes well I don't know I think she well good of her good enough he ends up as a tramp and he gets to ah son get in and you know he fucking hanging out the back of the window we had, we had enough money to move to a bigger house right, and they got this little ah fucking hell yeah that's I, I said all they've done is literally scaled it up to like instead of a door being that size its now like that right and the front porch instead of being that low now that high up double it, its a bigger home its hilarious we've moved to a bigger home, fucking scaled it up and he, did he fight, does he fight, I mean he here's some he here's a Pat Boone record or something and all of a sudden he started dancing to all this and the old black bloke comes in and says oh my life,he couldn't get any of the old blokes . it is a funny film, you seen Roxanne where he plays a fucking funny, he has to think of twenty pornographic, the only women who can satisfy two by two women at once its got here, nature loving, too much, really love little bee, give a mat to sit on and stuff like that, your gonna fucking break that in a minute, time have you Mark? Twenty past Think Yeah, yeah, have you seen Filofax? No New one out, that's really funny woman in it the woman in these is by the farer one of the horniest bitches for me anyway that I've, I mean she may not be everybody's cup of tea, she's well slim ain't she yeah but the, seen her in Real Men Face Me? yeah, John Ritter What's it called? Real Men with John Ritter its, its really wacky, like he's this fucking secret agent stuff, I never smoke unless its after six and he just, he's this John Ritter and his got this really mild of character but he's been mistaken for an, an agent and he's, he's, he's going he's over there so do something so he's, he's going fucking he's gone, why have you got a gun, he said we'll think of something so he's gone over his hand all these fucking people have diving they can see he has a real gun and as he's done that the mates behind him have shot him with a real gun, his gone, his gone and he fucking thinks he's so he's going around and this other mates got it as well and these two mates have shot, he's gone Wow, and all of a sudden he keeps going I'll cover you God eh it really is funny the best was on that fucking baseball and that yeah, yeah its you'll have to, you'll have to see it, Real Men, James and John Ritter, its good. I just sat through the whole and pissed myself, I like the clown squad yeah oh no its the dreaded clown squad, what C I A agent's dressed up as clowns they're deadly and all you see is this fucking he, he, he, he said hard, right, so he can fucking, he said I'll, I'll take these and the first man that comes up fucking bashes it and then James er John James gets them all and when he wakes up, just as he's about to wake up John James thinks right and he fucking lays down on the ground and he wakes up and sees all these clowns all over the place he thinks he's done it right, and he, he fucking he gets, he saying to his what, what happened, you've got all these clown squads? Well, yeah I guess I did, you got all of them? Even Bimbo? Well yeah I guess I did he gets confidence and he walks up with this he's getting cockier by the minute and he's well proud and he's got he sees this, his in this bar trying to chat up this woman, he says I need a, I need a didn't he say I need a smoke or something, so he looks for a woman something like that, oh its fucking and he sees this really pretty woman, but, like he's got glasses on and he's got big I don't really know all sweet and innocent like you know, oh come on we'll have fun, a bit of a I don't really know, like this and he fucking, he gets let in this house and er fucking he says just wait a minute I'll just get everything ready so just come in when your ready so they walks in Have you got yeah no he walks in and there's this fucking big like contraption thing there like, you know, and she's standing there get us a thingy stiletto heels, fucking whips and stuff, she says right get in, what,and he's fucking on this thing and he's going round and round and round he says I think I maybe in love , you know, he fucking come out and he's looking really awful and meanwhile this James Ritter character he was suppose to, he's stopped the robbery and sent the police and their all going wow what a guy, fucking great stuff, that is a funny film and er The Real Man Real Man who was that Mr Death is alright, its not brilliant but its alright film as well Spread Heap Spread Heap, yeah unfortunately yeah, where he drops that fucking cup of coffee I love I think Wow look at that Let's get this straight, the woman's mine ok Turner and Hooch was funny Oh the ending was funny that's probably the best film that's ever been, there's been shit Oh I don't know I really like Mr Big er sorry Jumping on that big piano on the floor I thought that was quite funny actually I thought that was hilarious. It took me a long while though to realise that was Meg Ryan at the beginning. Yes, right The thing is I knew there was Meg Ryan in the film and I thought I've seen that actor cos I'm, I'm always on about knowing faces and names and stuff Maybe I should but she's, she's going er Really dowdy, quite pretty but really dowdy and at the next one you see she's erm this real baddie got bite my boots and real trendy sort of bimbo type character ain't she? Yeah long, long straight er, and I thought well now she looks familiar as well, I still haven't twigged that its the same Meg Ryan riding her bike and then Meg Ryan comes up and its really funny. Beg forgiveness and say please get off my like that don't you normally go in the garage and do it yeah, why can't you change it in the garage? Some garages say, say no. Well then I can't believe that any garage would, would refuse to give you a ten piece for their own machine . I'll ask for, I'll ask for ten pence Fucking go somewhere else then now you know where not to go don't you? Nobody has Eh? Saying, quite easy to go into a garage then So what's fucking new? Ah? You heard no I didn't, can you repeat that? so what's fucking new? cheek . Rocking and rolling Fucking No, just said , well I don't know she might be, she might turn up and then say half past seven the time got up half past seven pardon me. Did you see anything about, did you see that bloody No What's that about? about the events up too and leading after the events of Bloody Sunday, nineteen seventy-two No, sorry never had anything to do with he was trying to er He got, got question and that in that events like so they did in said they just fired rubber bullets high into the ground fucking rules, live ammunition they were rubber bullets being fired as well but all the ones that died were no it wasn't rubber bullets, was it, it was that, that real live ammunition live ammunition yeah, they didn't have rubber bullets then did they, they had the old Yeah basically between the fucking suppose to be aren't they? basically that, the erm the trains that were right, erm I thought they'd taken it yeah but they take it, they, they got documentary haven't be able to get anybody died being shot they got people being brought back wounded and stuff, but erm, basically the there were I R A gunmen there erm at least three was spotted, say in a crowd that size how many more went unspotted yeah right, its almost definite British come under fire but it does seem that the para's did kill erm out of, out of the thirteen, only one had any I R A links, he was a member of the, the I R A erm, and out of the remaining twelve only three of them might of fired a gun, you know, they leg or the hands, by the side, by the gun yeah and er, but apparently they did a, they did a test and that was also a package where the stuff like that, transfer although those three may of been carrying weapons, they split open the policeman, but this does seem to basically at , well not no, not indiscriminately they didn't say that but they shot innocent people, I mean like I said well the I mean that's got to kill in those streets and stuff the ricochet's can go quite easily go through somebody but there, there was, there's always been claims er, there's no I R A gunmen there yeah apart from one Reverend the most Reverend Doyle or something and he saw one gunmen and he saw him fire a couple of shots and they told him to piss off out of sort of thing yeah so I mean if, if they caught one, they actually took a photo, managed to take a photo out of all those hundreds of people, look how many more were, were there, and it just seems like basically their not sure who fired first, obviously the Irish say it was the British them and the British say they were fired upon first and erm, on, on the strength of it, who, who would you rather believe I mean, somebody that's been living in Ireland for twenty odd yea twenty years now with all that happening around him being able to be got at by the I R A or a British body who may, may be up on a murder trial, you know, the, at the end of the day its six of one and half a dozen of the other, they've both got stuffed by a bleeding troop yeah so it really does think that all I murder trial No they were, that's what they were weren't it when it all happened, the old Revered somebody or other, they wilful murder but erm yeah basically it doesn't seem like, there was no real evidence as to who erm fired first and there was no conclusion that the about that, but they were certainly I R A gunmen, para's, its like without a doubt if you know some people, but like with those high powered weapons they may, alright its unfortunately that somebody may have got shot, but it may not of been the main shot, that may, may of been a ricochet or, or anything like that, both their they've got a killing range of up to three mile so one mate come round, he says he's gonna come round again tomorrow and have a look at it well if they ring up tomorrow, erm one bloke says he might ring up tomorrow, one said she'll, she'll come round at the weekend and another bloke said said it's a Dolomite Dolomite, its in the paper, its in the paper for five-fifty, but I told that lady last night is it, what, what is, what's, what's your minimum offer, I said well I want four hundred for it I'm not going to take any less so I was, I was sort of and but erm, I think I down by his legs,all this and erm, you know, its bang, bang its just like, its over in a split second, you don't have time to be this, I was there and there nobody really new what was going on and all this sort of stuff, he was probably one of most honest about , well, one of the most honest little bloke more willing to speak about it,and he had this other one it was right you know like, er, well I'm already taking further than I'm willing to go on this course, what you need is, well look, you know, all I know is that we was first,saying no more than that,not willing to go. The only thing, the only thing that all of us said categorically is they were fired upon first, but the trouble is they've had fucking twenty years to, to think up their side and so there's that so haven't they? so have the Irish. How many they reckon fucking How many reckon shot them? Yeah. I don't know, well, because I mean that any one of them could of said oh well we were being fired upon first and then they could of er, their colleagues fucking going on Yeah, but the other thing was, it wasn't that, towards the end of the programme, they weren't so much who fired first, its, erm, there is, there is no evidence either way to support either story, the Irish say there was no Government, there was nobody running for Government you know, said that they had three If you can manage to get one photo of a gunmen in all that crowd, how many more were there they didn't get a photo of you know, erm, so that's bull shit for a start the said that they only fired upon identified targets, going on motorbikes, and erm, I mean the thing is, the para's are a highly disciplined, highly trained apparently at a you weren't even allowed to go out there without at least five years experience yeah, they were soldiers, they need and I can't believe that they negligibly you know, cos there was women and children there, and nearly all of them had wives and kids, you know, and there was reports from like the Irish saying oh yeah, they were mixing body er, care and body people and fucking laughing and joking over dead bodies and my old man said yeah if you just, if you just seen something drop most people will laugh and joke about it, you know I don't know if you've ever meet this sort of,old man, but the service sort of a, a unique sense of they can laugh at anything, you know they can see somebody with its guts put out in front of them and they'll fucking crack out about it, its the only way they can stop themselves cracking up, or fucking crying sort of thing. And there was this, there was this no conclusive evidence, the only, the only thing that was that, that these and make the said there was only one man definite I R A and the other may or may not of been like I said just the fact I'm shaking your hand,weapon he goes and does a frenzy test but the evidence on those three were, wasn't very, wasn't very conclusive and it So it doesn't , still doesn't rule them out still doesn't fit and that's the thing yeah I mean all this morning was saying you haven't seen under fire, they don't stop and look around if they get down into cover he said how they suppose to know who's firing or not?, you know. And he, he said but we only You don't fucking we had a couple of men fire over the one of them said, you know, he said how, how the hell how the hell can they say which directions the fire's coming from?but they, I mean some of them were saying like this mate he run out, he was going across this patch of open space and the soldier obviously saw a soldier and as he did that apparently he got shot through there and out the other side of him. So the thing is, if he,inconsistent in that story, if he's doing that, that direction how did he get shot from that way, where he's own telling stories apparently coming from? Yeah You know that's all right he may, might, alright there may of been a soldier there, but they've just come from that direction yeah and then he's, he's going out and they're coming like that direction and he's looked round and he's seen the soldier,doing it, he's gone and this is how I did it and then he put his, like this and he stuck his hands up and as his done that he's got shot through the body from the side, what's he still alive? no, he blew his chest out. You don't get and fucking live, not many do any way. How did he know it was an S L R? Ah? How did he know it was an S L R? Well that's it, if, if it was a British soldier it was a S L R Yeah, yeah, that's what I mean, I mean he could of been fucking I R A Exactly, the things they could of,stop inside people unless its,so you can never tell. Any one got any Harry But yeah, I mean, there was so so many inconsistencies on, on the Irish witness side, you know, like what, what matey said I was, I was running out and all of a sudden I felt a pain from here on those fuck it, he's up there, got big forearms, and big sort of muscle that size, that's really wasted this side even after twenty years, it must of about and apparently one matey got shot in the back running away, oh no five out of the thirteen got shot in the back, which again doesn't fucking mean any thing, you know that's , but I said if there's I R A supporters there and that, you telling me you seen where your comrades have fucking get shot, you're not, you're not gonna try and pick up his weapon and stuff I mean like, it was just a perfect opportunity to, to get one over on the British Forces and I, I said I don't think yet the para's were entirely blameless, but then again I don't think they ever have been in any of their fucking No they're not angels, they're a hard regiment, but they're also highly disciplined and highly trained, I've got, I, I, the other thing I couldn't see what good, I mean is it, is it the, I mean its not, its not the anniversaries or any thing so I don't know why they brought the out, cos I can't see what interviewing people twenty years after the thing happen can do. Not, probably not. Well, well interesting programme, I'll give them that though. Not a Yeah, but my old man he's a, he's driving he was driving the one of the that's, that erm, Lieutenant Colonel was in at the time of the, and he, he was in there and he said my old man knows for certain that at that time they were under fire, cos they drove in and picked up two bodies and put them in the back of the jeep all under fire Yeah they know for a fact that there were gunmen there, as to who shoot, shot first that's held in tribunal, he, could, he, he'd never know Who's that, your old man? yeah nearly ever soldier that was there got Lord Rigdely or somebody, you know yeah and er, the, the programme condemned him a bit, basically he he didn't, there was, there was, he didn't seemed to take in a lo , a whole lot evidence from either side, you know, he did, he did, he didn't seemed to handle the case very well, it was sort of more like it just get it over with quickly and forget it sort of thing. Sounds like I don't know though I mean he, he's, he's allowed that, he allowed that the fact that they could of been unarmed men and all that but he also condemned three of them on the evidence of this lead which he really shouldn't of done, he should of left an open verdict on those few cos lead could be transferred to . I mean lead can be picked up at what put your hand on the exhaust . Oh well lead so er, apparently if, if you could get in fine detail enough we'd have lead on ourselves, this is why the, this carbon dioxide stuff from the erm Fucking have that on the inside of the They have this, they have this MP there from the S D L P from nineteen sixty-nine to seventy-two and he's a, a pacifist, he went to the, apparently he went to and spoke to the leader of the provisional I R A no I don't know who it I don't know who it and apparently he asked him that, are, are any of your men gonna be there and if there are he said, I'm, I'm gonna pull out and use all my influence to stop the march and the I R A police said no there would not be any gunmen there so I thought yeah, fucking right, oh yeah that's easy to say, and then if like the reporter said and, and you believe him and you have the feeble excuse towards a small community he said, you know what's going on fuck off exactly, I mean this, this is, this is the I R A, they're not part of any fucking small community they are the fucking community unto themselves and that's is that, that was he's answ erm, that was he's answer to the question of do, do you believe him or something, you know, well all in all it was quite interesting Oh it might How're you getting home? Naked you? Up at half past seven, fucking Set the alarm for half past six, gets another half hour in bed and he's moaning about it. An hour in bed, , so Fuck off Did you see that, that last night? Erm its not the sort of thing I like to watch. I, I wasn't watching while at the time, but erm basically it seemed like it was six of one and half a dozen of the other. Don't no nothing about it. Thirteen, thirteen supposedly are innocent Irish got killed by para's by militaries included in the crowd, and all the other's, the Irish say that basically there were no I R A gunmen there which is according to there's proof that they have, they were, erm and like that, the para . It's all a load of bull shit basically, it seems, it seems that the para's were certainly under fire, with nobody knows and erm, it does, the only thing that is blatantly clear, all these lying transferred by the para's and they were like dragging them away and stuff and the only, there's only one member that's had any thing to do with the I R A that they can find out about, that's one so at least nine weren't firing definitely, erm, three may of done or may not of done so it looks like the only thing that basic the same is looks like at least nine were innocent, you know its all right for No smoke without fire thought yeah, makes you I can't see what's good its doing twenty years afterwards, the people had time to think about it and use their memories for twenty years, nineteen seventy-two it happened and they've just sort of done it . Yeah but tell you the truth will never come out about that though. No, but the, the only good,heard of it is erm he said and basically any of the para's aren't Might know. They know who they all are. Yeah they reckon they've got files on it, sort of eighty, ninety per cent of who the provisional I R A and I R A are. Yeah. One of these will do? Yes please, yes please, soon as, soon as Fucking they think they're all in the beds,. Stu done half fucking rabbit on don't he? On and on and on and Oh have I upset Phil in some way? Why? dunno, seems to have got the hump Phil? Yeah, said good morning Phil, totally fucking ignored me. Are you still sort of staying at the same or Dunno, that wife of fucking me up. Ah? That wife of me up I had a my girl yesterday Oh. Oh shit. What? Knocked something behind by the looks of it Ah? Knocked something behind his bench by the looks of it, dropped fucking go and wash it go But its got Fell out the bag yeah boring night down at the Ah? Boring evening in Oh yeah. probably end up watching video's and this evening. Oh, this evening coming must be eaten anything dinner time, I've got to go to the bank Here Stu drink How is he? Was he really scared? I hate it when that happens Eh? hate it when that happens,did your buy or what? Its three a week, sometimes I don't, depends what date he goes, its up on Cos I see him know with this big pallets of that stuff all over the place and I must admit I was fascinated when I was standing when they Yeah looking at other people's who was that box for? There's only two trolley load on Well mum's shopping bill don't come to . Oh, that's a nice plant, is it a coniferous Colin? Is it a coniferous one Colin? Yeah its a little conifer we found in er Did you get a good fair offer or what? Its alright, Do you want some imported stuff, its . I have that what do they usually look like, they got little, like leaves, tiny leaves under the a bit like a pine I suppose, you know, larger but they're they're sort of like a lit , small little leaf along the outside easy come, easy go Your mum and dad know your smoking? Haven't they said anything?, obviously not. At first they Eh? At first What'd they say? no What a surprise You did what? What a surprise . Have you got those photo's back off her? Ah? Have you got those photo's back off her? No, get them developed, later I suppose. Fucking Why don't you get hold of that one? Fucking get hold of it I don't know where it is out of her. I, I respect her privacy You lying toad . I do You respect her privacy only when she's in front of you, when she's out the room its a quick glide full through all the drawers I once nearly read her diary and I thought no I'd better not Actually I would, cos if you end up murdering her Yeah she might have some nasty things to say about it. Na, course she hasn't she loves me Its one of these quite big ones with a little catch on the outside you know, a little, And you couldn't, you couldn't pry it open, could you? and it was er open on her bed, she popped out for, for about, I dunno forty odd minutes to get her hair done or something I was well tempted to have a look, but I thought no if I get a diary and somebody looked, looked through mine I wouldn't be happy about it, so I didn't its quite a hard temptation but It is quite hard not doing it. I bet she asked when he got back No when she got back you have a look in my diary she said you go bright red and say no What diary? Yeah Well I keep a diary now I didn't know you kept counting And I years its quite lovely looking back Its about all in it What? have a kip at lunch time, did some work, came home and got smashed Went down about all See you later Mark oh see you later mate see you later, yeah, good luck to you where, where you off to? ta la mate where you off to? Gonna Yeah yeah Oh, just in time for nineteen ninety-two Oh yeah , yeah good luck, good luck, see you later see you later Mark, alright Be fucked out by the time I Get in there Be a funny old day won't it? See you later Mark, good luck. See you Reckon that's three out of fifteen. What you quite happy as well ain't he? Is he, where's, where's he going to? Hamburg. Hamburg. Yeah yeah I mean Did he say where? Does he, does he know which firm he's going to, Airbus Where? Airbus about nine quid an hour sorry? Airbus Airbus, oh done well Mark Nine quid an hour. I've got his telephone number at home, I might phone him up Yeah, I might the trouble is if their looking for people to start Sunday, I can't start Sunday. I know, I can't start Sunday. Got to give them a week's notice Its not worth it for you is it, you might have to hang on till after Christmas and try and I might phone them up and just, ask them if there's any jobs going after Christmas sort of thing Can use the good the things, I mean, for a, for us who haven't got permanent jobs yet not working. That's right, its a job Has he got the flight out there and everything, they pay for it? They do, yeah. Is he going on Sunday? Yeah I'd love that, I'd love to pick up Well yeah, I don't know. I think. I should think its quite hard to get into it Yeah I never thought of that, yeah I suppose its colder you don't have to take that many clothes out there do you, cos get out there Its a funny old day I think if I was going to go Sunday I think I'd buy myself a few cos that How I've got two boxes at home, but I I mean its not brilliant, but they do the job for me could be worth cos he driving out there as well, wouldn't mind start get the old ferry ticket's tomorrow and piss off over there , straight through France, Erm out to Holland they offered me two for a boat, right and they offered me one while I was there, then I got home and they offered me one that late that evening,job, erm working like that was a Thursday and they wanted me to start on the week Monday, I couldn't do it as it happens I had to give my weeks notice here get out there that quick, so I fucking said, I said to myself well they've first day, they're gonna offer me a few more, so yeah they offered me a couple more but way from so, a bit unlucky I, I wished I'd fucking taken it Well you could of done really, I mean you could of fucking rang in, rang in here on a Friday and that's what I, that's what I thought like cos I thought you know, if they want the first day, then there gonna have to do another lot so what's the point of sort of yourself out with fucking , I wasn't really sure at the time that I wanted to go to so, you know, I, I said no I needed this job, but probably a bad I've been offered a couple of month one's as well, one month and two month's, but I mean the trouble is The trouble is there are they? I was gonna say if you ain't permanently in employment, you're a bit silly to take that especially if the er, present climber and there's one there they offered me said it could be two weeks or it could be two years I don't know, so I gambler or not, I mean it depends how well you're you are as well. Well most of them they saying are six contracts, now they say, say, six month contract or eight month contract or a three month contract, but I just had a couple that were like oh they could be a Goal couple of months he said he, it could be a couple of years, it depends on how quick it get, work gets done and how long they think they need you. What time is it? forty-eight. Forty-eight Does they put Well maybe thirteenth What time is it now? Quarter too. What you got to go into town for? Fucking alright, I haven't been up to the today, I've spent most of it sat fucking here. Fucking I don't know. Stuart What? Barney says he don't like extra strong mints so could you get murray mints next time please I'll take them home. Yeah this is taken this piss isn't it? you've got to ain't you? this morning. I'll tell you what I'll bring you back a crate of fucking French extra strong mints yeah we've heard you don't give it to Karen in the French style. What is the French style? No fucking idea. The French what? Mucking about the place, sex I know you, you, you're not allowed to bath three days before so you can get that fucking French aroma going. That could be it Probably right. They reckon the average French woman don't change their knickers, they only change it every two days or something and all sorts they don't shave. Yeah I know that. Get right fucking any way Yeah No I mean like that And their That, that, that little French, that little French girl I fucking, I told you I met over in Spain, she fucking had she had her right the way round there, sniffing out the fucking size of it ,felt like saying do you want a quick short back and sides girl . No She, she does she once, she never let me in the pass, she never let me for my birthday. Eh? She never let me for my birthday. What's that, shave her shave her I'd wanna shave her. For Christmas she said can I shave you? Fucking hell, a bit weird man, what's All I want for Christmas is a smooth fanny No shave and then you shag a girl Yeah but they reckon the stubble afterwards plays havoc. Ah, getting that yeah Fucking yeah but I ain't gonna have to worry about it I'm not gonna be back for a month am I? Should of For Christmas Eve I'm gonna get the old fucking out run riot , don't try any,fucking run mate. She'd be up with it as well, cos if I sleep I ain't never going to get it .. Well think of that, if you cut her, whoops. tissue all over it I wouldn't mind another Yeah Stick the tissue on it Would you like to do you interested? Definitely different. Mm. That's what I want to do the shaving as well Yeah, see where its going wouldn't you? What they don't need, they don't the old lathery legs I ain't got to, I've just realised it was The old lather in there, work it about a bit. Does it, is it, is it the The cut throat A bit of hot water down there fucking well you've got to snip it first, haven't you , you've got to fucking snip it with the long hairs first, the old cut throat. Oh he's, I swear he's done it before He has done it before. No I haven't I bet he has With a bloke Oh, . Its its just me putting after shave on argh. Well funny you should say that but we have shaved the bollocks of a bloke in T A, he was a right like Tintin, so we, we pinned him and shaved his bollocks and then put after shave over it. Oh no. Oh god I bet he passed out didn't he? The thing is we did it right, we did it in the nappy, then we fucking put him spread-eagled on a bench and me mate ran off to get the shaving kit stuff and this fucking this people who's erm, looking wom , girls in there and everything, real fucking pissed up to him, didn't take very long. What that small bollocks. But we shaved it from around there,people we were gonna go on to shave his legs and stuff as well but we got caught. . We were gonna wax his fucking legs argh, he didn't ar , he did, he wasn't screaming cos the thing we said like if you move this, your, your will be slit sort of that'll keep him dead still right alright, but then more ways than one . Yeah He had a shaving kit like that, and he had his old, the old after shave lotion and that, and he will, well, picked us, we just fucking said I, I know what will do the trick a bit of fucking gone top of the after shave, used about half a bottle of after shave, and he's just gone started around, I thought he was throwing a I thought that must of well stung. I mean it, you know when you do it, when you put it on after shaving you think ooh you know Yeah half a bottle all over his I mean that with a any way, but all over his fucking private parts shave them Ooh. I don't think he ever forgave any of us. Who told you to get him? The thing is a couple of weeks later I don't blame him really. no a couple of weeks later, erm, we, we went on a big route marching stuff and he was in agony the old stubble Yeah he, he, he had the old fucking vaseline down there and so , all that all the Don't join the T A no I fucking ain't, but its you say that, there's this geezer Would you go around with your Thank fucking your heads not shaved not you're bleeding cos er, there's there everyone get's something done to them, but nothing, nothing like erm, Oh, Roger's got bald balls they say that some guys got skin heads, Arseholes, I wouldn't, I wouldn't do anything like that, I wouldn't do anything that might hurt There's some, there's some guy . What's that? Shaved this Lieutenant Sergeant Major eyebrow off when he was sleeping one night, and he was in front of the, the Colonel Chief and Regional so what he did, he, cos it, it took, taken ages, took about three months to grow back, so what he did was he shaved the other one off as well yeah and like, just blended it in with like one of these pencil stuff, so funny apparently he went, he went round telling everybody erm he was doing a live exercise and he got singed or something but this, this erm, its Browndown on the South Coast and it was, it was a Christ it was a Christmas piss up, regiment Christmas piss up and anything goes, as long as you don't physically hurt somebody, although that has been known to happen and its not criminal anything goes right, but honestly the worse you do to somebody the worse they do back to you, and people are getting tied bollock naked up the flag poles, dumped in bins, erm, tied in their beds, put out in the middle of the parade ground, fucking all sorts of things you know, like what we can do, the most common thing is nicking, you know the old walking pay slips they've got yeah nicking them and capture there pay slips and you get it, you get a little brass plaque on it saying captured by so and so and the date, cos obviously they get fined for loosing it and all that sort of stuff do they? oh yeah its army property, must cost about, they cost about eighty quid or something What? the pay slips they use in the can actually marked up and its got the exact You mean you haven't seen them doing it oh yeah the people, matey's walking along and he's going like this and he's pulling it as he's doing it, he says and he's doing it in proper time like that, but with one arm going he's twiddling it, he's doing it, he says no my feet are exactly like that, very effective but you can actually get fined for loosing them, you have to pay for them and its like a real, shooting sticks as well,you don't tend to carry erm, these pay sticks you carry them like the old shooting sticks, the old you know? Yeah we captured them,great laugh about that, really is, its just a, its just a weekend of piss up basically. Every night in the fucking raunchiest games, it doesn't matter if your a girl, if your girl and don't want to play fine, if your girl and you wanna play well, quite like the bloke sort of thing you know, there was no, nothing er, no given, the fact that your a female, and they used to go in as hardly anybody half the time, erm, indoor rugby and shit like that yeah with a cushion. You know, nine times out of ten you don't even get round to take the tables and the chairs out the way, just fucking fall over them erm fucking indoor murder ball, the seat, cushion and stuff like that, its fucking well out of order piss up games oh that's right I think we played in, I think we played, you know that British bull dog thing?, we managed to clear all the fucking the nappy chair this and the chairs out the way, we were playing this British bull dog sort of thing and the only thing, the only, the only difference was when you got caught, got, everybody was fucking giving you a few thumps in the arm, for good measure like, and we played about four of this and every time this cocky little son of a bitch didn't get caught, he was always the last person, so we fucking said, we said, me and this other guy's that are in our troop and that er, we said right we'll get him, so when, when everybody sort of go for it right just after the one person in the middle, said fucking just get this guy and fucking pin him down and do something to him right, we didn't, I think we said we'd just get him, yeah that's a good idea, so he's gone right go and his mate he's fucking took off two steps and there's eight of us fucking dived on top of him, what the fucking, he's struggling, get off you cunt so we pinned him down and at first we was just going to de-bag him in front of the women, we've taken his boots off and his trousers and that and shave his bollocks, yeah the whole fucking yeah, it was like an audience, all that they sort of gathered up the chairs and the tables fuck have his bollocks shaved. Well out of order, the thing is if that'd been, if that'd been another troop trying to do it to him, there would of been, there would of been shit Hell to pay but because he knew it was our troop, you know but erm, that's the thing when you, nine times, about eight times out of ten you did it to another troop, but then again they did it back to you, but this time he was a right cocky son of a bitch, I mean we all liked him, but he was right cocky bastard, so he So he thought he was it so we decided to bring him down three pegs or two So when did the hair grow back on your bollocks then Stu? Yeah, its thicker now Mark, but they shaved me round here, you know er, we had , Kevin, Kevin yeah he was the fucking B U L G A R, he was a right good laugh actually he's still there, he's a Lance Corporal now Got I, I, I was lucky in the three ground I went too the worst that ever happened to me was I was put head first into a dustbin, but luckily it had been emptied it was still well mucky, but I just fucking went and had a shower, and I come out of the shower and I'd got pounced upon again and I was there, it must of been a funny site, there's me right in just a pair of fucking deck chairs that we used to wear for the, the shower block right, fucking shaving, er like the wash kit bag in my right hand and I was holding me fucking towel round, round me waist with me left, I was streaking across the play ground, going as fast as I could and about fifteen of the erm eight, eight, five troop chasing after me, it was like our sister troop yeah, we were, there was three troops in our squadron, eight, eight, five, eight, eight, six and eighty, eighty, seven and then there was three squadrons and a regiments, there was nine troops there, so like, if it, basically it was your troop and nobody else, but then it was your squadron and, and anybody else and then the few times that I, on regiment it was your regiment and nobody else, like, we could touch you cos your our regiment but if you try and touch us,you can get fucking hell , but it nearly always come down to the troops, and the thing is eight, eight, six, only had, the first year that I was there we'd only had about thirty people, fourth year there had I opposed like fifty, sixty and seventy, second year we were there we had about forty- five opposed to like sixty, seventy, eighty, and the third year there we had about fifty opposed like fucking seventy, eighty and ninety in a, in a troop, so we were always well out numbered and we were by far the most outrageous well, huh, one of our fucking sergeant's right, we were taken erm some of the recruits from another, another troop I mean, er nine, nine, one or something it was one of the other squadron's and er, and he's got them inside where's he's like fucking the old erm What time is it? eleven forty six, he's got them inside, I think I told you about this didn't I?, and I was inside helping them out like, he was outside, he didn't have his gas mask, we were doing the things, like M B C stuff, and I'm inside and he said right you will each go to a post, where inside this tent, each to go to er, erm, cos there was six people inside and like there was six posts, he said you each got to a post inside the tent and on the you will pick up the tent, and I new what was coming, done it before sort of thing and erm, were all in M B C stuff cos there's still lots of gas, but there wasn't for very long, and he said right on the you will, er he just said, we picked it up right, were all fucking all fucking I said go on then, Yeah and then he's, he's fucking started marching us around the parade square and and we can't see a fucking thing inside there, and he said er come out a minute, so I've blinking gone out and I've noticed were about fifty yards from the beach so I've got out, I, I said to him you thinking what I'm thinking, he said yeah shall we do it, most out of order it is a bit cold,middle of, middle of December like twentieth of December or something like that,he's, he's fucking gone yeah, right troop right turn so the whole fucking tent shuffle's round, he said, you remember you are part of the British army, if you disobey orders you will be brought up on charges, by the left quick march, and he's fucking walking them to the sea tent an all go on and like the thing is obviously like the first realise there on a and they try to stop it, why are you stopping for, remember you are in the British army, if you disobey orders you'll get a court marshall really started laying onto them, and like they've started again and like the first bloke obviously got to the fucking water, cos he's stopped again, one man one sides shouting out and round the other side shouting out and they have they've all gone in, they must of thought fuck it and they've all just fucking marched into the sea, and we marched them in,tent was only about that much above water, and we've lasted thought, this is the thing that got me, he, he shouted at him, cos we, we, we managed to get them and that, he said right,right, go in, go in and tell them to come out, what, I said what, can you just pop in and tell them to come out, I said over here sarge, he said you disobey an order I said oh you cunt, said I'm your troop you can't me go in there, he says try me, I said bastard so I fucking right sea, fucking over the right you can come out now, marched back out again gave them a right old on the way back again,get changed again, alright, I thought you cunt and er, this is what I, this is what I wanted, to tie to the flagpole and left him there for about an hour he had his pasting as well. I, I, I remember you telling er He was our, he was our squadron but not our troop you see, see if I'd a been his troop he probably wouldn't of made me go into the sea, but it was fucking cold, I mean, I mean full M B C kit right yeah, trousers, boots trousers, boots, fucking the leggings, the gloves, the mask anything, he made me fucking walk into the sea. quite like, yeah , I'll never forgive him for that, he's now our troop's sergeant, he's got a transfer to the other squadron one of these troops, to er, to a troop. I went down there about a month ago say hello to them all. Yeah. , we er, we, we did some, I mean that was a proper weekend set aside for but I mean they really about practical jokes being played and stuff. Er well the worse thing we ever done in cadets was erm,the er the handcuffs right, trouble was . I used to like, I used to like the P C Yeah yeah, I did like the used to make but I used to like the But the thing is once you'd fit you could stay there. You used to work fucking hard though most weekends. Like a lot of weekends you'd leave, you'd leave the T A centre about eight and then from eight o'clock Friday night too about, well you'd be working until about three o'clock Sunday afternoon, and you are lucky if you'd got three or four hours sleep working you don't notice, you get tired but you don't feel that bad and it was only like I used to come home on a Sunday crash out about sleep about . My old man said he's erm, he used to go down to er, every, every sort of six months or so, cos they were in he was in charge of fucking then, he'd used to have to go on manoeuvre's about sort of six monthly or something like that Yeah just for re-training sort of thing. The first time he went down there he set, set a had to take the waters out, you know,said you've done it before ain't you said yeah I did it in in para's and the bloke said yeah, right he said erm well there's not a lot I can teach you senior N C O's he said you might as well piss off down the pub, I'll see you later Yeah, then the, the old man and about three or four of these N C O's, he was senior N C O, sort of, sort of corporal and the rest of them were corporal and lance corporal's, but he was the one in charged of the Yeah water section and then maybe, maybe the other month he used to you get about three thousand rounds of blanks and stuff Yeah like we did eh did you? like you do up yeah going for a that was brilliant I got and that, and I tried , I had a whole box of er, erm,thing is, when you hold a thousand rounds of ammunition, I got given about two thirds of this box all for myself,so I'm there for about three hours before the exercise I had and then put the rest in the then we sat down for another hour filling them up again, superb, we had loads of bung in the windows grenades ain't you? it, we, we had to do it properly, but the idea of the machine gun go in there and go away Me old man right , me uncle, me uncle used to live in a house which used to digging in the back garden,this piece of fucking dirt and he pulled out this and its sort of round, my old man's gone, no he, he said er I wouldn't dig there any more my uncle's gone oh fuck off like this and he started to put his fork in again and we goes, my dad goes well that look distinctly like a three inch mortar shell so I wouldn't put any more in there if, I wouldn't put your fucking fork's in there again if I was you, they had to get the bomb squad out, they diffused it, they found about five fucking mortar bombs Really in the back of his garden, yeah . The thing is the way the way They, they , what they'd been doing was shooting them over and they'd just hadn't been exploded, they said dud shell or something. Get the bomb squad out any way, but erm, the British army has got a lot of important that's they way we would fight the Russians, take over a small hamlet, mortify it and that's how the only way we would ever up the Russian's grass nest, they take it very seriously, so what they did if they tell us how to do it, walks us through, show us what to do, let us do it and then they'd make us do it again, but without any mistakes and that, it was really good and they showed us how to er mortify up a house, go, going through all the sewers and stuff is quite fun The thing that gets me though is erm, when they done these exercise you've got to yeah ain't got a you don't obviously, but yeah I know. It is, it is simulate valve which basically your out in the open and you see somebody firing the regiment , I know its a bit silly but there is no real way, mind you, its not, you can't, the thing is you can't defend them without how you die, you can't train people how to avo to die, you can only train them how to avoid it, so it doesn't really matter if you get fired or not, but they show you the drills and you have to do them to the best of your ability the blank rounds are only there to the conditions, now this is why they've got these laser got laser sights all over the body, helmet and torso and the actual weapons got a laser on top and you get, if you get near one of these things you go dead and your out, and you can actually simulate but then again there, but you, you fire off the blank, that's what triggers the laser sometimes if there's been a lot of, we did, we did it in a couple of time see the old laser go, cor, its got very think red beam, its not like you see these big flashing great big bits of light like on Star Wars and stuff, well its not, its not suppose to hurt you its a very thin piercing beam, its well impressive. See the old man was saying when he was doing Salisbury Plain they blew up couple of and a couple of Yeah,that is small hard weapons . Its about, for, for the kit on use of your body and the stuff that your weapons its about a thousand pounds Yeah, but its suppose to be in it. expense, its er state of the art equipment. As normal the Americans had it first, had it first but we had the computer system first built oh not into battleships Mark. No. the only battleship I know about is the girl friend go away for about three months at a time and you'd say of where's Norman, oh he's er working and then we all knew he's working for a he'd put them in the computer systems right the way throughout the ships Yeah like I said we at least to go on one complex exercise every month which, although they can't physically make you go on it there was, you know, they more or less made you go sort of thing pay to do and then we were there the other weekend we had one of these weekends where be more fun, really hard work though it'll be more fun for See you Ah? You get back They still that's why they have these on the end of them weapon with a yellow fork at the end,but even without that you still get lots of little bits of cardboard come out, its a cardboard wad inside its the same charge as a but its a cardboard box, cardboard blank inside Yeah I've seen them. and it shoots it out. You can shoot them at close range I mean there was a Giant killers aren't they? yeah there was an actor erm and he was playing Russian roulette with and he put it up to his temple, pulled the trigger the blank went off, bloody blew his brains in. The thing is, if they always give you and you, your, nine times out of ten what they do is like, is either, they either put a can over there or a beer or something, they put it over the end of the, the weapon pull the trigger and that, even with a flash that can go like that, and then they show you one with the, the erm flashes right which have more powerful than the and they've actually got same again same charge as a life grenade in, but it just plain cardboard so, obviously no trap, but if you lay on them ooh er, you get or something you don't throw what they do now is they put one they light one, put the helmet over the top of it and make it lit, it runs like buggery and it'll go a hundred, a hundred and fifty foot up in the air and inside it looks like its been and where its been in the thing it'll be like er, six seventy foot off the ground, I mean I laid on one once and I,landed about two foot too my left so I've rolled over, rolled, rolled, and rolled, as I've rolled I've rolled over on my back and I've had all loads of over, like the, I had a roll there its like the er Yeah I know stuff keep the half way up my back its all padding and stuff and I've rolled over, as I've rolled over there 's been another one it has gone off, it felt like I've been kicked in the back by somebody really having a go at me, it threw me and even with all that I had a like that so there not, there not kiddy toys . How long ago was this? Er about, how old was I, I was Is it, it looks a bit like a, the one laying down. I don't know, proper weapons I know that, that's, that's behind me Yeah I turned round and but still got back in I don't believe it, paid all that money for a digital said look at the about stuff, at the end of the day they, he is five a side football stuff like that, had I've been thinking about joining again, but I don't really know what I'm gonna do after Christmas now even Karen said she wouldn't mind joining but I tried, I managed to put her off that idea. See the thing is, what they've said to me, because I've been away now for nearly two years erm I'd have to go back and do all the training again, which is a bit of a pain but its not too bad because I've done it before sort of thing, she said to me oh yeah when you go I, I might come along and see if I like it, and we can do the training together she said, I manage to put her off that idea, manage to talk her out of that. They still don't like you co-habiting with er Court marshall. Yeah do you know if your on duty and you get caught co-habitating did you say, said er, yeah court marshall, discharged you with a , discharge you Karen whatever her name is Yeah, but married couple there did have a couple of people there that got married while they were in the T A but they weren't allowed, they never allowed to sort of buddy, buddy together I tell you why I got put with that woman. Ah? Did I tell you why I got with that girl Yeah its really cold, yeah oh that was good, I enjoyed that she's still there, she's a Lance Corporal now as well and I must admit well I, I didn't think she'd ev , she was always crying but I never thought she'd actually do very well in the T A, didn't seem to have the get up and go about it but she obviously sorted herself out and got , Spambo Man they called me. Shitler Shitler yeah your right there. See my nick name in the T A was Vicky, she probably felt save with somebody named Vicky see people started called me van witty and then it got changed to Wicky then somebody started called me Vicky and it stuck, she probably thought I'd got a You know when I look back now I fucking enjoyed in the T A My old man in his regiment they called each other bow. Bow. Hello bow how you doing Everybody was bow was they? Yeah, it seemed to be a fucking secrecy I suppose. Yeah alright bow. had a girl from another troop Lynn somebody can't remember her last name any way her first name was Lynn and as rumour had it, she'd had everybody in the bedroom Yeah so we started called her lip, but that happened before I got there so, as I got there it just like, as I joined got in with the regulars it started to peter out a bit, but I got fooled with a couple of times I thought they were taking the piss, alright Lynn how you doing, you know, still . See the thing was she, she, the best fact the only reason she joined the T A was to get Right ok love, we will do our best. Fucking well will Yeah good old laugh, I remember my scout motto, I promise that I'll do my best and do my duties its going back a long, long way brother. Ah see that girl though, got accused girl scouts or something, she refused to swear an oath to, to god, because, she wasn't sure there was one, she'd swear it to the queen, Yeah but wouldn't take an oath for god so they wouldn't let her in. You know sort of eleven years old, she said I'm, I'm god, its not been proved to me, its not been proved yeah sort of, so how, how can I swear in all honestly, I thought it was really good. Girl Guides I thought how, how can I swear an oath to god in all honestly if I'm not sure there is one, I thought yeah blimming right, I mean, she wouldn't just take, say it so she obviously said, she obviously said the right theories and I thought bloody right, they wouldn't let her in. as long as we get that cleared up. As I say, fun, fun, fun I say, like I say sometimes you can do a pissing rain in a fucking hole and have about four hours sleep at the weekend, then we get, we get back get into the bar and we'd have a fucking good laugh about it. You make some really good friends, friends you fucking trust your life on sort of thing or your girl friend get a million pounds in, in, in a amazingly short time, cos you've got to work together, its really, really good. Tell you what, I would love to, like to for me to be a sergeant again and get someone like that in my troop fucking break him. Well there would he, he wouldn't join up any way No, I mean instead of or where ever it is,. Er, well there is, there is a there is in every but I don't know where they main one is sort of like in it, I don't know where I don't know where the, the military stock aid is I think they've just got don't they? Don't know with me wrong hand I don't told you that didn't I, I was well shagged with someone fucking swim left hand The only reason you join the T A was to get out of fucking work weren't it Stuart? Don't give us that shit Eh?, the only reason you joined the T A was to get out of work Get out of work? Yeah you get two weeks don't you, two weeks British Aerospace was brilliant, as long as I had, I had a good reason to go away they'd give me, they said they'd pay for , I mean one year I did six weeks away paid and then anot another year I did two months non pay and I still kept me job, that's when I went up the for two months all I was just labour doing it then. Did they pay you for it then? Eh, yeah regular army pay, great that's really what made me decide to join the army, that was in the T A but I regulars . All I do I got out sort of the sort of about eight thirty and then I, I'd work to about half three and all I'd wanna do is, we, we'd fucking, we'd set up the cable then we'd all sit down and do nothing while the old erm, the M O D people had obviously it, and then they tell us to take it down and move it and we move it and set it up again, its like out of a, out of a seven hour day, we'd only work about three or four, like here. I've got my own silk lips attached to the fucking like swallow it stick it up her nose and say. Peace and normality dates Eh see that woman who right? Yeah I was fucking like that and the thing come that way It would of, it would of got me I tell you. Only direction it'd fucking slice me ear off I reckon. I thought I don't like all the he's gonna fucking have me, so I sort of got down like that and as he fucking come round the thing must of gone like that, sort of that sort of bearing. Stu no Stewart Fucking would of been taken me ear off. Have to wear fucking er . I wonder if he'll give me this. Thirteen O one. Eh? Yeah you get two minutes or something don't you? What? You get two minutes don't you? Thirteen O one. Thirteen O one. I got that. No. I fucking better I think if he, if I don't get half an hours pay fucking Fifteen minutes you're allowed. No, fifteen minutes. Fifteen minutes and you get docked. Well I ain't doing sort of I ain't doing nothing sixteen minutes until it gets back. You do fuck all anyway Stuart. Cheeky bastard. So it's six minutes you'll have to leave him now. Ah. Here we go. I say Barry old chap . Yeah they've charged me a fiver's fucking commission on that. That's outrageous. Yeah. Cor. Shit. Want fucking shooting. That's over five percent. Yeah. About five an a half, six percent or something. No no it's not as much as that. It's about four Yeah. Cos five percent on a on a hundred pound would be a fiver wouldn't it? Yeah. So they charged you er About six percent. five and a half, six percent they charged you. Fucking . I'm sure when I op opened, I'm sure when I got my T S B they didn't charge me that much. When I bought . Mind you that, that was er travellers cheques and they're usually cheaper anyway aren't they? They're only a quid for a hundred. Quid. Cost me a fiver when I changed that . Yeah. T S B. travellers cheques. Yeah. Quid for a hundred wasn't it? Eh? Every hundred pound you spend you just put spend a quid over the top. Or every hundred pounds worth of travellers cheques you get. three hundred pound See I'm I'm only allowed to take fifty pounds worth of rand into the country so I've gotta do it all in travellers cheques. Yeah, it could be right that actually. Mind you their rate of exchange if if you'd have bought all pesetas in this country it would have probably been a better rate of exchange for you. Rather than out there. No. That's what she reckons anyway. She said she said that Well that I I us I got a better rate of exchange out in S A than I did here. Yeah but that's probably When I changed up fifty quid's worth here erm on the Monday I got four point three five. And on the Wednesday when I changed them out there I got four point seven. Yeah but that's a fluctuation. That's a lot of fluctu-fucking-ation though. Yeah, point three five of a rand though. Or point point three But that's still quite a lot. Point three five of a rand is fucking nothing when you work it out. Yeah but yeah to us. To to English money. To us. But they're talking Yeah but I mean about big business and that. That's a lot of money. No I know it doesn't mean much on a thousand pound or something silly. But i like it is I mean it's quite a lot considering the money markets and stuff. Yeah I know. I mean that's that's the same as fucking out in Spain last year. The best rate of exchange I got was how many pesetas is it to a quid? I dunno. Yeah I was, I was getting about hundred and eighty two. Pesetas to a quid? Yeah? Well when we were out there it was ranging from any anything from about a hundred and eighty five to a hundred and ninety six. So that's eleven pesetas, that's quite a fucking bit. Used to, used to be over two hundred. Yeah. That's right. Last time I went about three years ago. When I went out there with Sandra I was told that you normally get a better rate of exchange in the country when you change travellers cheques. Yeah and she's just ch told me completely the opposite. Maybe it was the opposite at the time. She goes oh sorry all I've got is hundred franc bills. Okay fair enough. How many of them can I have? Well for seventy three forty eight you can have seven hundred. I didn't think they were gonna fucking hit me for a fiver as well. That's a bit fucking off isn't it? What? Hitting me for a fiver commission as well. That's a bit fucking off. You change it back they can stick you again. If you don't spend it all. They fucking better not. You're not allowed, you're not, you're only allowed to change notes as well aren't you? Notes. Yeah. They'll have bricks through the fucking windows at Lloyds. you don't get don't get you don't get the same exchange rate do you? You get forty percent. like twelve francs to get a pound or something. Yeah. You get stung when you try to bring them back. That'll be a cunt. I'll walk into a French bank and say can I exchange these back to sterling and they'll say oh yes and then charge me five hundred fucking francs again or whatever it is. no five nines, nine eighteen twenty seven thirty six forty five francs. Yes that will be forty five francs commission mons monsieur. What, is an Italian bank teller working ? Fuck off. Eh? What's a franc? A ninth of a pound. Yeah. Ten p. You have to work these things out before you go to France your money won't you? That's why I'm gonna take this with me I think. Eh? I'm gonna take this with me. I'm going for the Ah it's ten p a pint. Surely even you could work that out without . It's five hundred francs. You cheeky fucker . Fifty quid. No see that's when me sister went, went out. She only got four hundred and eighty odd francs. See that's how much it's, it's going up and down. It's fluctuating. She got four hundred and eighty francs for for If you swear at me you cunt. fifty quid. Yeah? Yeah. Take twenty francs out. Yeah. quid. Yeah but I paid seventy five or seventy eight. And now you got seven hundred. Yeah. So for that two hundred francs more I've lost about eight quid. So now you see why point three five or whatever is So? Two hundred francs more, ten quid more. quid. That's variation exchange rate innit? Yeah. It's the last time I go to fucking France. Never been there. Don't know why you're going there in the first place. Never been there. Dive. Yeah I did. He's got it. What? My Sport. Stuart was reading it. Eh? Oh it's on top there. fill the old pools coupon out. Suppose I better start in a minute, hadn't I really? Why break a habit of a lifetime Stu? I might have to hurt you for that. Eh? I said I may have to hurt him for a remark like that. I ain't gonna start . I'm fucking kicking you out in a minute. And I'll sit here and fart away Oh god. get home tonight quite easily. Why don't you go to bed and go to sleep? I'm feeling that way inclined as well. Ah! Yeah cover your knuckles in this stuff and punch somebody marks out . Oh god. Eh? I think I'm just gonna go round me girlfriend's and sleep after she's given me my food. Lord knows what she's cooking. and see cousin Billy. He'll soon deal with it. How is cousin Billy nowadays then? What? How is cousin Billy now then? How much it cost you to get over there Tramp? Eighteen quid. Eighty? Eighteen. Gonna say. Yeah that's cos he was using the allen key. I wasn't using Who can explain the thunder and rain there's something in the air . Oh I Yeah I also noticed the way he was using the . It's amazing how soldiers in skirts have always had a hard reputation innit? Come on, let's be serious. No that's fucking pussies. Eh? No they they've over the years they've got some very fucking good write ups. One of the toughest regiments. Apparently. Carry on up the Khyber. The devils in skirts. Yes. It's all about er squaddies in skirts and . Bung ged id in. Yeah. He bunged it in. Bungdidin. Bungdidin. Did anyone see that one er that Carry On film second world war with er erm a mixed camp? Yeah. With them goats? Yeah. Yeah. It wasn't one of the funniest ones. No. It's good It's good. The ar the wooden artillery gun. Yeah. Bang! . That's got another one, got that Who who's that matey, Kenneth something innit? Or No it's Patrick Mower. No the the camp commander. The little guy with the moustache. Yeah Kenneth Williams. Kenneth no. Kenneth Connor? Kenneth Connor yeah, that's it. He was the only one of the original cast in it. Yeah. Windsor Davies has appeared in a few but he's er not one of the regular ones. Who? Windsor Davies. Oh he was the sergeant major weren't he in that Yeah he hasn't appeared in many. Well what was it? Erm Carry On Camp he was in wasn't he? Yeah. I liked the the Tarzan one. Carry on up the Jungle or whatever? Yeah, that's it. Frankie Howard. Yeah. Yeah. And Terry Scott. Had Terry Scott as Tarzan weren't it? Yeah. I think Carry On up the Khyber Pass was famous though with old erm Roy Roy Castle. Roy Castle. Terry Scott. Yeah it's fucking brilliant that one. And erm the one with Harry H Corbett in it. Er No no no no no no. The film erm where he was, the monster one. Carry on Screaming? Yeah that's it. What does he play then? He plays the inspector. Sergeant. Or whatever it is. Yeah . And erm, what was her name? There's been lots of good ones. Fenella, Fenella Fielding. Who's the erm the big titted wench that's in all of them nearly? Barbara Windsor. Barbara Windsor. No no no the other one that Joan Sims Joan Sims. She used to play really voluptuous ones in the earlier ones and then she was the old tramp wasn't she? Yeah. Barbara Windsor that took over from showing her tits. Liz Liz Fraser was another one. Who Yeah. who was the one that was in Carry on up the Khyber cos she was tasty? The the princess? Angela er er er er it was Angela something. Fenella Fielding I used to like that he'd go here get off, get off. Yeah. Jack Jack Douglas. Jack Douglas. He's a freak isn't he? Yeah. Kenneth Williams ooh stop messing about. What was that one? Where he was in, and archol and archaeologist or something? And he had that big titted Russian woman in the same the same caravan on the caravan park. With er Yeah yeah I know. with erm with that matey and Carry on Camping. No, Carry on Camping had Sid James in it. No, that was Car yeah it might have been. You realise that you could cause a strike . I know the one you mean though. An unskilled man Yeah and it had Windsor Davies in it didn't it? Yeah. and the matey who who who was the one that Oh that was who was the one who played the missionary in Carry on up the Khyber pass and that? Played the who? Missionary. The one Oh god I can't remember. The one that was caught bonking in the very beginning sort of thing. Can't remember his name. Tried to convert that girl. I tell you the one I like was Carry on er Beau Geste or something like that, Carry on Yeah. Who was that matey? Jim Dale. Jim Dale. He's fucking brilliant He's been in some good ones actually. he is. Carry on Doctor and Cos that was the same matey wasn't it? As his butler? Yeah. Yeah. Bilko was in it weren't he? Old Phil Silvers was in it. Yeah Phil Silvers. He'd been screwing all day and he'd walk into the camp fucking going Yeah. He he'd wreck himself wouldn't he? Get another medal for it. Yeah he was Commandant Le Pew or something wasn't it? I say this is not cricket what? I say , are we allowed to do manual labour? Wanted to borrow a screwdriver. As our shop steward representative I don't think we can allow this sort of thing brothers. That's what I mean. People down here being made redundant and he comes in Haven't you got anything better to do? No. Here you are. Where's this thingybob then? Sonny. What's a Russian It's also the Jewish one. The Jewish Yeah. Jewish trying to teach them English. And he'd go one two three four five sex . Oh yeah And that girl as well. She was always like the nice one in there wasn't she? I used to like Carry on, oh what was it? Erm the nursing ones as well. jelly weren't it? Yeah that's that the nursing ones were good. Er the ones were good as well. . Who saw Jasper Carrot last night? Anybody see him? that karaoke shit hot. Eh? Anybody see Jasper Carrot last night? Yeah. No. Fucking brilliant. was all I just saw the bit where he was on about the erm short sighted hedgehog. And the dog going down his leg. . Remember you can make a friend for life. There's a vet like this he's got a fucking bone in his mouth and the dogs his fucking leg . I just saw it I like the bit with the detectives. It's called the detectives right? There's Robert Powell and him Yeah. and old Ruby Wax was in it last night. Yeah. And she comes up and she goes good day lieutenant Kerawski from New York the N Y P D like this. And she goes up to the two blokes and she grabs them by the balls and goes mm not bad, nice butt, you know? And all this sort of shit. Who? No. Who is? Yeah. Who's going? Who's going? Chicken. Who's he? what's his name? Eh? Going is he? Chicken? Oh yeah I know chicken , yeah. The one who used to walk round the corner and get round that corner and give it all that. And fucking Dave reckoned there was a piece of wire running across that fucking corner just down the bottom there. You know where the ferrangi is? Yeah. It's down there. It's down there What? . Cos every time Jerry'd walk round that corner he'd give it all that. He's fucking got a terrible twitch, a real nervous twitch hasn't he? He'd say watch him, watch him as Jerry was fucking walking along. And there'd be about ten or P ten or twelve people fucking watching Jerry walk up walk round that corner. Every time he got to that corner it'd be like that, all fucking giving it some of that. Fucking awful really. It can be the sign of a nervous breakdown. Somebody s somebody does a er develops a nervous twitch and stuff. No, he's had it for a long time. Yeah. I'm not saying he hasn't, but you know that can be the sign. You don't say. You could even give the bosses a Christmas Would you still work? present couldn't you? Here you go Mr . I've You still work? bought you this fifteen up fucking boot. Yeah, probably. . Depends how much I won. Millions. Yeah, I'd probably fuck off for a year and do my own thing and come back and maybe take take, maybe start my own business. I'd love to start my own car re erm refurbishment business you see. Like that's how I got that two and a half grand. By doing up old cars and selling them. No way in the world, if I won a million pounds again. Yeah? I'd only do something I enjoyed. Yeah. Like it's different if you're working for yourself because at the end of the day it all goes in your own pocket. Any, any profit you make. I dunno. See you in a few years time with fucking . Cos Charles is off the er drugs . He was reputed to have personally killed five men because he, they done his head in. Amongst them a former work colleague Tramp . Alias Mark. A reformed hippie with a food complex. Stuart the wanker . Alias the git. Who is still at large, unknown whereabouts unknown. If apprehended all care should be taken when a That's Chris 's right hand man. when approaching this suspect Barry the Barry the weasel because he smells a bit. Then he . Yeah and Chris 's right hand man and Barry the knife . this old boy. it's the getting caught business innit? getting caught business . We'd all be criminals if we couldn't get caught. Have you seen this man? Chris he done my head in . He done my head in so I shot him in it. I suppose you almost got kicked out, or did you? Eh? Did you almost get kicked out? No,get out the house at the time. I don't know what though. Keeping the fucking cup now. Otherwise I'd have put a brick through your window. Fucking joking aren't you? Were you out out of it at the time or what? No. Come back from work! Half hour at work and it . Bit pissed. me sister I've heard of parents shopping their sisters. Knowing my old man he'd probably fucking turn me in. No I doubt if he'd do that. He hates the old bill anyway. At the end of the day fuck all wrong with it. Give me a sit down and a good fucking stern talking to. sister ? Eh? sister ? Yeah. You got any sisters sisters? One sister. Eh? She does . What's she like? Eh? Married with two kids. Judging by him she must be fucking ugly. If she's anything like him. Married with two kids. So do you get on with her? No. Don't even speak to her. Take that as a no then. Get on with her? Can't be bothered speaking to her. She's older than you I take it then? Don't know where she lives. She older or younger? You don't know where your own sister lives? No. Close family then. Well I, I'm a right family man I am. Can't be bothered to get out the fucking house can you? I know where she used to live. Have you got a sister? Know where she lives? I've got two. Are they nice? Ring me up this piss up. She boring though. Who's that? My sister. She fucks doesn't she? Your sister. I've just deep-throated that banana. You've had plenty of practice so I hear. Karen's been trying to do that. She can't manage it yet. She'll get you have to sort of get over the gagging. Does she? Fuck off Stuart. You haven't got a prick big enough. Oh come on! No as soon as it gets anywhere past the top, you only have to have about a four inch dick. So you're alright. Yeah I suppose so. . Cos as soon as soon as you get anything down to about there where your swallowing thing is Yeah. you have to try and overcome the gagging don't you? I mean you can make your your fingers so you can fucking stick a dick down there. And every time my, every time she tries a deep-throat she panics. Starts going So I said is that going is that Is that alright? is that too far?fucking It's not, it's not good manners speaking with your mouth full. She likes giving head but she doesn't like swallowing. She only swallows as a special treat if I've been really good or something. Or if I'm really Merry Christmas! Yeah. Slurp. Ah. She hates it. Apparently it's like sucking I dunno salty warm yogurt . That sort of consistency. Well I've never heard it de described like that before. That's what she says. She says it the same sort of consistency as yogurt but it's salty and it's warm and it's not very nice at all she said. Well you read in them porno mags fucking girls love it. Yeah I know. If you ever read a porno mag they're fucking My last girlfriend used to though. No mine Jean never. She used to, she used to love swallowing it. Oh it was great. I tell you what, I never used to shag her hardly at all. She used to like giving head so much I used to fucking right drop them yup slurp that was it. It was fucking gobble you off in the kitchen with me parents upstairs and stuff like that. You did it without?fucking mad. Well I got up there started fucking going for it . Wouldn't mind so much but they kept taking the piss out I was wearing my socks. Yeah Mark apparently he's got the second biggest cock that this had ever seen. Are you sure Yeah she said you've got the second biggest cock or you are the second biggest cock she's ever seen? Fuck off. No she said I've got the second biggest co cock I mean that she'd ever seen. She goes round looking at cocks does she? Well yeah, she's fucking must have you know about a bit. And they shagged without a condom. Do you know how babies are made? Yeah. I didn't c Do you know about AIDS? Yeah. I didn't come of her. You don't have to come of her. Didn't get a fucking chance. You get a discharge without fucking It's true. semen, really. No, not semen. I mean it's the sperm that's You you either get a pre a pre-cum shit out of it. And that contains a small amount of sperm. I mean she used to toss, toss me off on the old and there's, there's and she used to sit on there used, used to sit on there she used to to toss me off and I got this fucking as she's tossing me off she did this love bite. Oh it was like that. That's how fucking this AIDS is spreading. People can't can't be responsible. They're just shagging without condoms. And if she's had a few your a stupid fucker for even being Yes. up there in the first place without anything. told me until afterwards. I still wouldn't do it. Apparently she's going with some bloke who There's no way I would fucking shag a girl No it's fucking without No. Not with somebody you've just met. Obviously if you're having a long-term relationship and you know she's not shagging anybody else and she's not on the and she is on the pill. The day that I first shagged Karen without a condom was about fucking two, two or three months into a relationship. We'd been shagging for about a month. So were you shagging Jenny with a condom as well? Yeah. All the time. She was on the pill as well but she Yeah I know. But I mean I'm not stupid. I know enough about fucking AIDS and shit to worry about it. Really for women though. women . Do they? I don't, I peo blokes seems to say oh yeah I hate using condoms. You wouldn't catch me using one of them. But I don't feel as if , I mean it's it's not the most pleasant thing in the world but it's certainly fucking sa it's safer than a lot of their more easier to put on and take off than and fucking safer and more effective than a lot of their contraception devices. And er four johnnies sitting and Eh? The what? Four johnnies . I don't know. I just I just don't see why blokes don't use them. Got and two extra sensitive. I mean it's not as good as without but it's still fucking good. don't really care do you? If you don't find it good with a condom there's something wrong with you. Hallo, who's been nicking suits? When you going to France, tomorrow Mark? Er Sunday. What's this, with The Sun? No I do well I don't know. No idea. Usually the old Sun every year don't they? Yeah. No I think theirs was a couple of weeks ago. Because that that Zeebrugge disaster was The Sun as well wasn't it? Why bother going why go on Sunday? Why go on Sunday,closed? No. No. No. Not in France. Never been to France. It's only in England that it's all closed. Or Britain that it's all closed. Been through it. Isle of Wight. Yeah . I can't remember . I've been to Calais before. I hope we go to Boulogne next time. They reckon that Boulogne's better. Been to the Isle of Wight. Wow. See old Sarah's been kidnapped on Emmerdale Farm? Don't watch it. Do you watch it Cherub? No you wouldn't. You'd be down the pub wouldn't you? Thinking of missing the Friday night sesh then Cherub? I'm tempted at the moment I'm telling you. You footballing tomorrow or not? No. Lay in. Why ain't there no football tomorrow? Too far to go. Sheffield Wednesday. That's just couple of junctions up from Nottingham. About another hour er er about another hour? Hour and a bit. you could go and see . Yeah. not in a . Mister himself. No apparently I'd gone in the bog, I wasn't feeling bad or anything. He said, said you were just standing there and all of a sudden he said you looked at me looked back at the wall just went pee he said it's all come out, it's all splattered all over the wall he said, you did your fly up, wiped your mouth, washed your hands and went out again as if nothing had happened. He said I was left stood there with this other mate on me other side going what's he had to drink ? I can't remember fuck all about it. But this must be the first time I've puked for about two years. But I had a lot to drink and that's that time I was telling you about. Fucking fifteen pints or something. I was telling Mark they reckon I climbed up the outs the outside of a fucking multi-storey car park for two flights. Oh I do I sort of I do do things like that. I can't remember that but this this girl at fucking Wokingham fair. This girl she was well and she got on this fucking roundabout you know, one that swings out? She got on there and you could see she was gonna throw. She had a pile of fucking chips and You're not gonna say this old couple fucking put their hand out and No, she took on there she's gone ooer all the fucking way round. There was puke all the way round. silly bitch. I can't remember nothing about this. I can't remember apparently like I said I I didn't say I'm gonna be sick. I didn't look it I just stood there apparently fucking splattered against the wall, dribbled down and I didn't fucking . I just wiped my mouth and washed my hands. Yeah there's this multi-storey car park . Go down go down a level for the first Yeah. And there's like a brick wall about that high and there's two flights above it. And what say where's, where's the old car?on the second floor. virtually second and me and this matey said go on, race you. Right? So he's fucking ground floor so I thought fuck this. And I got up on the wall right? Got up on the wall He did his donkey climb bit didn't you Stu? leapt across the like fucking ledge, you know they're not very high erm presumably Sixteen foot across it was. get to this ledge. Climbed up the outside of this ledge you know like car park. Stood on the of that wall reached up, pulled myself up that wall. stood there Where the fucking hell's the car then? Where the hell the car then? . And all the time he's on the ground floor. And all because Stuart loves black black magic . And all I could remember and all the the only thing I can remember about that was running after the car with . Do what? Fucking messing about something and I can't remember a thing about it. You do that when you're pissed. I do anyway. I do fucking when I do silly things like I rip bus stop signs It's only cos you're a wanker isn't he? bus stop si bus stop signs off the fucking things. He's taking the piss out of you. Nick road signs and stuff. That's the last thing you've ever done you cunt. Fucking nea ooh groin strain. Fucking as I did that me whole fucking foot went. I never know whether they're taking the piss or not cos I can't remember it. I have about eight pints and I blank out. I can't remember anything about the whole evening. Just like, like bits and pieces. Stu. Should you wish to accept this mission. This pint of Guinness will self-destruct in five seconds. Yeah. got really pissed and can't remember what you've done. It's bad. have a pint of erm . Wait wait waiting for them to say something. Yeah. I said one night er this matey's come up to me, and he's like one of me mates and that and he said fucking hell you had a skinful the other night didn't you? I said who told you that? He says you stupid cunt I was out with you most of the evening . I couldn't even remember he was fucking sat there with me. me mate down Torquay. Yeah. I thought he was down Devon? Said no he come back Friday. He goes party Friday Friday night That was the first I knew about it. Well I never do, I haven't even been doing anything. All I do is fucking drink. It'd be a right nightmare if I did drugs as well. Wouldn't know what the fuck was going on. Bit like here. about fucking I'll have a pint of lager please. I drunk these fifteen pints and I fucking looked as if I was dead. I wouldn't drink All I did, all me and my mate did was sit there all day Sun Saturday and just fucking veg out in front of the telly. Feeling rough? Yeah, feeling fucking rough. And I last Friday I had, I had a skinful as well. That's why I went sh I had a hangover, a raging fucking hangover Thing is don't skinful . You watch, he'll get in that pub and fi first thing he'll fucking do is I'll have a pint of lager please. Be on the fucking wagon. The first one may take a bit of time getting down but after that it It always does. Always does till about nine o'clock. it'll oh the first or three always t and they always fucking take their time getting down. Yeah. Once they go down though you've started It's totally the opposite with me. If I've got my drinking head on it'll be the first three pints in about fifteen minutes if that. Oh no I can't do that. If I was left to it the first pint would go about I did that in fucking thirty minutes, forty minutes. The second pint about thirty minutes. And then after that I'd be drinking like a pint every twenty minutes or so. No, I fucking once upon a time I used to be able to do it. It's fucking rock and roll. like if say we would, we would get out by about seven. By about nine o'clock right my mate would have say five or six pints inside him and I'd have two pints sat there on the fucking table. And he'd be call oh you lightweight, you gonna drink it? And I'd be going fuck off, they're mine sort of thing. By by half ten by half ten he'd have a fucking pint sitting there and I'll be going come on then you cunt. Get the next round in. What time is it chaps? Ten past. What time? Ten past. Ten past? Yeah. Ten past? Ten fucking past . Ten pa So what? Ten past. I thought it was about half three or something. That's what. It's fucking shot by and I ain't done any work. So what's new? It doesn't normally shoot by though . Hello. As you know, these programmes come to you from the University of Sussex, and if you've listened to any of them in the past, you'll know that they're devoted to topics and subjects in which we feel we have some expertise, and which we think would be of special interest to the local community. We're going to continue with this objective in the coming months in this, the third series, but before we get totally immersed I want to use the first three programmes to stand back to take a more general look at what universities are about today. Last week I talked with Laurie Sapper, who is General Secretary of the Association of University Teachers. He's the dons' union man. And today I have with me Geoffrey Caston, who is Secretary General of the Committee of Vice-Chancellors and Principals. Geoffrey, what is that organisation? Well it erm goes under that rather queer name in fact it is the association of British universities. It's the organisation which erm universities themselves have set up and finance in order to promote those interests which all universities have in common, and this includes negotiations with the Government about erm money, it includes negotiations with erm university staff, erm and it includes a general service function of monitoring legislation, Government activity which affects universities, and generally promoting the universities in the public consciousness. It's, it, it is a form of accountability of universities to the public really. But it doesn't control universities, does it? No, in no way does it control universities, it's erm each university sends its vice-chancellor as its principal representative or other members to other committees erm in order to erm give their view on what the collective what action the collectivity of, of institutions should erm should carry on in their name. Universities are very independent organisations and I suppose it, it's more like a league than a governing body. Well that's true erm and indeed, erm there is nothing we do which erm requires universities to erm to do anything other than they would have wanted to anyway. Though that's beginning to be qualified a little because of the erm effects of erm national legislation, for example national employment legislation nowadays requires that all employers in a certain field of employment, and universities is one, erm pursue similar policies towards their staff, and indeed in our case erm pay them on the same pay scales and erm so in that sense we have to enter into agreements with trade unions and others which are binding on our members. But that's rather exceptional. In principle, no, we only act in a consultative and advisory way. You are in a position to see what's going on in the university world and therefore I'd like to ask you one or two questions, rather general questions. It is of no surprise to you and I to know that we are in a erm an economic crisis, and, but I think that we might be accused of being in an area that doesn't take the fair share of the cuts. Are universities being cut as much as for example primary schools and secondary schools? Well, relative to the size of the job we have to do I think the answer is yes. If you're comparing us with primary and secondary schools we have to remember that the erm the great erm age bulge pass has passed through the primary schools and is passing through the secondary schools and is still to reach higher education. And the way that the Government has reduced the provision it makes for higher education erm is that it is has so far erm kept us with the same amount of resources while expecting us to take more students. erm In that sense, whereas of course in the case of primary schools there've been fewer resources but of course far fewer students. So in that sense the resources per student, the funds per student have in fact erm come down by in the region of erm fifteen per cent over the last ten years or so very roughly speaking already, and that's a very considerable reduction in provision. So that means that the productivity has to go up, presumably. That means the productivity has gone up because, that is if you measure erm productivity entirely in terms of numbers of students taught. But it is extremely important to remember that the teaching of undergraduate students in the eighteen to twenty-one age group is only a part, that's the one people usually evaluate universities, but it's only a part of the job which we do for society. erm The other parts of the job are that we do erm all of the fundamental and much of the applied research which the nation needs, we provide an increasing range of advanced courses in technology for people in industry, and continuing education generally, the number of mature students at all levels is rising, and there are a number of other service functions we do for the community as well as just teaching undergraduates. So it's linked very much with the national investment really, in terms of technology, in terms of work force, and so on. Yes, well I think we believe that to be true, and certainly I think the Government believes it to be true erm we,People often say that the universities erm don't erm satisfy the needs of society. I think the important thing to remember there is that erm we regard ourselves as having and people who work in universities regard themselves as having a special obligation and indeed to use their own special skills in order indeed to define the needs of society in their own special field and then to do what they can to satisfy. The difficulties that sometimes occur is that erm universities are I would say with some justice don't always accept that it is Government and Government departments, ministers and civil servants, who are best equipped to define the social needs. We tend to reckon, perhaps rather arrogantly, that we take a rather longer view of the needs of society, and maybe are as close to getting it right as, as, as, as ministers with their day-by-day short-term preoccupations. There's one section of the student body that has come under the limelight in the last year or two and that's the overseas student body. We have a relatively high proportion of our student body that comes from overseas, and a year or so ago when the announcement was made that the fees of overseas students were going up, there was a cry that we wouldn't get any any more, they would all go to America or Russia or wherever. What has in fact happened? Well, I think that it's, this is first year after the tremendous increase of fees which the Government imposed upon us erm last year erm increase about threefold, and erm it really is too early to say what has happened even this year. erm We won't have counted the students that are here erm until next month. So it, it is hard to say, erm and I wouldn't like to make a prediction except that I think the number of postgraduate students may have fallen more than the number of undergraduate students, and that we may see already even in this first year erm a substantial not altogether healthy change in the national makeup of overseas students. They will tend to be richer and from richer countries, rather than erm than, than the kind of cross-section that we would have liked to have before. erm I think the real danger however is that over the next three four five years, erm people all over the world will get into the habit of regarding Britain as an impossibly expensive country to study in, because no other country in the world attempts to charge the full cost of it's university education in tuition fees, and erm that gradually people will turn elsewhere. And this takes time, it takes time to change national habits, but I think it would be very serious for this country if erm in fact those people who want an advanced English language education in the Third World erm turned much more to the United States and, and, and Canada, which seems to be the erm trend, than they do at present. And this isn't just a self-interested view on the part of universities. I've just been at a two day conference at erm not very far from here, at Wisden House in which erm a number of erm top industrialists erm led by the former chairman of I C I have all unanimously been saying how bad they think it is for our future technological development and export development if overseas students get out of the habit of coming here. Education in the higher education sense is on the whole something for the eighteen to twenty-one-year-olds. Is that right? Shouldn't we be opening our universities to older people, for people to come back for a second dose as it were, for retraining and so on ? Certainly. I mean, on the whole and in the past I think that has been true, but the proportion of mature students, that's undergraduates over the age of twenty-five has erm has doubled in the last erm ten years. It's now, it's still only about five per cent, but I think that that proportion is growing and I think this is something universities would welcome very much. The problem is still there. erm Is education as good, we all think it's a splendid idea, but surely in this, this day of, of crisis, financial crisis, of hardship, of shutting down hospitals, erm people losing their jobs, surely this is something we really can't afford at the scale at it exists at present? Well, the fact is that erm only at present only twelve some twelve and a half per cent, one in eight, of our young people in the eighteen to twenty-one age group go on to any kind of higher education. This is by a very long way the smallest proportion in the western industrialised world of any country in Europe or North America. And erm if you relate that to our erm performance in industry I, I, I think it may well be that we are suffering from being a very undereducated country. And it's a, it's a tendency which I think we shall regret. It's the last place that cuts ought to be made. But supposing we had to make cuts all the same, supposing we just were forced into it, would you suggest that the best idea would be to close down one or two universities, not Sussex of course but one or two of the other universities? I don't really think that, that this is likely to, to be an option which governments have to consider. I mean if it's just economies you're after, closing down an institution's not the best way to do it, because the plant remains, and, and you can't easily get rid of the staff. I think the erm the best way is to improve productivity by taking in more and different students and multiplying the services which we provide for the community. So, ending on a positive note rather than a pessimistic note, what would you like to see for universities in the future? I'd like to see us tapping erm more of the erm of each age group of students coming on erm from school. I'd like to see erm there is still in this country a reluctance on the part of erm the lower social and economic class children and families to continue in education erm This leads to a position in which, a situation in which in, in the workplace and elsewhere the educated person is still regarded as a, as a sort of rather strange and alien minority person. I think this is very bad, I think that I would like to see an expansion of the, of the intake and a broadening of its social base, and by the same token I would like to see erm it possible for more adult students to come in, perhaps on a part-time basis erm into the universities. That's, that's my vision of the future, and I hope that our present economic difficulties won't frustrate that forever, because I think we shall be a much poorer in both senses of the word society if that's what happens. Thank you very much, Geoffrey. Next week we shall be getting the student viewpoint of university life. Until then, good night. next few programmes we're going to take a look at trends in science and engineering, particularly in the way that the subjects are taught and opportunities for employment. Today, we're going to start with mathematics. Maths is a subject that many people find difficult. But it's also the language of science. And even traditional descriptive areas of science such as biology are becoming more mathematical each year. The availability of calculating machines, and now micro-computers, must have affected the way that maths is taught, and also possibly the skills that are needed to become a good mathematician. Now Dudley Ward is a mathematician at the University, who's particularly interested in education. Dudley, is maths today taught in schools the same way as it used to be? No, I think there has been a change. There have always been good maths teachers who've made maths interesting and relevant to the children, but I think perhaps the emphasis has shifted from rote learning to helping children to understand what they're doing. But is this a good thing? Surely children need to know what their tables are. Well, yes, of course, but erm we have to remember that a large number of children have always left school without knowing their tables, without really having got anything out of mathematics. So, it isn't as if we're saying, erm maths has always been taught quite well but we can do it better. The fact is that for most children maths has been taught badly or rather they have learnt it badly for one reason or another, so there is a need for, for an improvement or a change, so the idea that if children can understand something this will help them to remember it or to make it more real to them, this does seem to be a shift over the last generation. All right, I take your point. But let's, let's be concrete about this. Take multiplication, for example. Now there's obviously an old-fashioned way of doing it, two twos are four, two threes are six and so forth. How would you do it these days? Well, I think there are many assumptions made by teachers. They assume that when a child hears ‘Two twos are four, two threes are six’ that they've got various pictures in their heads, various ideas onto which to attach these symbols and these words. Supposing you say to a child ‘What is four times two plus one?’ Now assuming he knows what four times two is and assuming he knows what two plus one is and so on, he may come up with the answer ‘Nine’, or he may come up with the answer ‘Twelve’, and they're both right. erm Simply because you can interpret the question in two different ways. Now when we were taught sums like that, probably erm they were written down and we had special ways of writing it to distinguish between the two cases four times and then two plus one added together, to give us four times three equals twelve, or, four times two, which is eight, add one, which is nine. Now clearly we can teach a child a rule if the child is willing to learn that if we put the two plus one in brackets then that means add them together first and then multiply. And we had elaborate rules for, for doing this erm some of us will remember, but on the other hand a large number of people listening won't remember, though perhaps they were taught that. At the same time they're faced with that particular problem repeatedly. They pick up a calculator, and everybody's got those these days. If you type in ‘Four times two plus one’ what do you get? Do you mean add the two to the one and then multiply by the four, or do you mean multiply the four by the two and then add the one? It's got to be important to the child to make the difference between these two alternatives. It's got to be important to the child so that he needs to know whether he means four times two-plus-one or four-times-two plus one, whichever way it is. Let me give you an example of, of how this is done with a computer game. I expect you'll want to talk about computers later but there's a simple computer game which, which shows a screen with thirty-six numbers from one to thirty-six. And then three dice, electronic dice are thrown, and you get three numbers showing up on the screen. And the child has to combine those three numbers to fill one of the squares on the screen. Let's suppose the dice show up with a four, a two, and a one. Now it may for the game that if he can cover the square number twelve, he will score more points than if he covers the square with the nine. So it will matter then to the child that if he types in four times two plus one, it's got to be the right version of that sum. So it then becomes important to the child to know, how do you say, four times two-plus-one. He needs to, but he's got to want to be able to that, and if he does then he'll learn it, he'll understand that putting brackets round the two and the one means do that first. And I think that's perhaps a difference. The rule's important, but it should come from a need of the child rather than be imposed at some arbitrary time when the teacher thinks that all the children are ready for that rule. I see very much what you're saying, but isn't there a sense in which you almost need to absorb in an automatic sense some of the basic things? I mean to have to work out from first principles erm four plus three is seven every time, you may be able to do that with great understanding, but there's an awful waste of time if you've got to understand it each time. Surely there's a, a certain balance between the, as it were the rote-learning of, of fixed things, and the understanding of what you're doing? Yes, of course, and there has to be a balance, and we mustn't go too far to one extreme. Many maths lessons today start with a ten-minute mental test as indeed perhaps ours did. One thing has come out of recent research, perhaps it was known all along. Teachers no doubt have suspected it, and maybe known it for themselves, but it is a fact that a large number of children at present leave school at sixteen knowing less mathematics than when they entered at eleven. Now presumably they've got more interesting things to think about when they're sixteen than they have when they're eleven, but this is a sad fact. Now if some of the mathematics they had learnt had been relevant to them and interesting to them maybe they would have remembered it in the same way they've remembered plenty of other things that are important to them. So, sure, we do need rote-learning, we do need to be able to say ‘Three times four is twelve’, we mustn't have to work it out on our fingers. We've got to have the, the fact at our fingertips. Old-fashioned mathematics you used to have to do calculations of how many square feet of linoleum you Yes. needed to lay on a floor or Yes. or how much water to fill a pond and things Yes. like that. The new maths seems to be much more to do with sets and groups and slightly abstract ideas erm do you think this is a retrograde step? It would be if that was quite as true as, as you imply. I think a lot of the modern maths that we've, we've heard about is still very much aimed at the brighter children who were going to do O-level and, and beyond even in mathematics. Even the S MP syllabus, which is probably quite well known, most schools in Sussex deal a little bit with the S MP New Maths Syllabus, which has been going twenty thirty years now, but even that was originally written for O-level, and then a version for C S E was introduced. But even then you see you're dealing with the top fifty per cent of the population. Computers have come into schools both at secondary level and primary level. Is it worth having computers in primary schools? Well, I think so. There's considerable argument about this. Many secondary teachers are worried about it because they say ‘The children are coming into the secondary school having perhaps used computers and we can't offer them computing for two or three years, erm you know and they're going to be very frustrated, erm and so perhaps they shouldn't go into primary’. I'm sure though they have to go into primary. You can't shut your eyes to it. The children are going to have them at home anyway, so if the teachers deny themselves this extra resource, and deny themselves the experience which the children can bring, I think they're cutting themselves off from a tremendous source of encouragement and motivation. There are a number of computer games that one can get erm there's Speak and Spell and I think there's another one called Little Professor. Are these worth while as far as parents' buying them for their children are concerned? Yes, I think they are. I think you shouldn't expect too much from them, but I think anything which makes maths interesting or enjoyable is worthwhile. Another one, while we're talking names, is Big Track, which is a lovely little programmable tank which, that you can guide around, round the carpet and put in programmed instructions. And these are used a lot in schools as indeed are the Little Professor and the others. erm I'm all in favour. I think it opens up the child's awareness to what's available and what's coming erm moves them on into the next century really. You run a centre at the University which is aimed to help schoolteachers in their computing questions. Yes, we do run many courses, well, I say many, but several courses for teachers in service erm courses. This is for teachers to come in the evenings after school and erm work with computers and perhaps more important is discuss with each other how they're using computers or whatever in, in their classes. There's a tremendous enthusiasm, partly I suppose because they don't want to be left behind in the, the new technology, but I think, more positively, that they see the advantages and some of the benefits that may come from having these machines in their classrooms. How do teachers get onto these courses? The courses are advertised in the, in the schools and in the, in the staffrooms. There are many courses being run now. Computer awareness courses at the teachers' centres, the local authority are running them, erm there are user groups in Brighton and the, the area for, for such erm teachers and the University as you say runs courses with the Department of Education and Science erm to help primary and secondary teachers. So if the teacher wanted to find out about the courses they could either contact the University or their own organisations, erm the D E S or the, the Local Education Authority. Yes, I think the teaching profession as a whole have got quite good access to information about the courses if they, they want to find out now. Returning to mathematics for a moment, it's often been called a very difficult subject. Do you think maths is difficult? Yes, I do. I think there are large chunks of mathematics which are very difficult, and there are large chunks of it which are difficult to teach. Partly of course because as soon as you understand it you say, ‘Oh, yes, of course, how easy, how simple!’ And then, how do you communicate that to other people? I think mathematics is a very hard subject to teach. Looking at maths as a much wider subject, as a subject perhaps for research and for exploration, have there been any very obvious trends in mathematics in recent years which could be described? Well, I don't want to get too technical because mathematics does get very esoteric and erm it's a real Tower of Babel to research mathematicians. We become less and less aware of what our colleagues are doing in mathematics even. So there are fashions in subjects which come and go, and one major breakthrough will be made and then suddenly there's lots of people working in that area. And of course because mathematics isn't directly attached to anything else, any other subject area, it can follow the whims of individual researchers, so at that level things come and go. And lastly, Dudley, is maths a good subject for a job? Yes, yes, it still is. Even when there aren't seemingly many jobs for anybody I think a mathematician is probably as well off as anybody to get a job, almost at every level. erm Indeed one of the sad things perhaps at the lowest level is how many jobs are requiring mathematical skills that, that perhaps twenty years ago weren't assumed. It's very hard to find a job which doesn't involve some interaction with machinery, with computing or whatever. And all this requires a certain level of mathematical skill. And at the more maths you know, I think, the easier it is perhaps to get a job, and perhaps to be able to choose an interesting field. There aren't many people who are actually spending their life doing maths. They're, they're doing things which perhaps require an understanding of maths. Well, thank you very much, Dudley. That's all that we have time for today. Next week I shall be taking a look at chemistry. Is chemistry still all test tubes and bad smells, or has this subject too changed from the days when perhaps some of us were at school? Until next week then, good-bye. Hello. This is the second in two programmes in which I talk to Professor Nuttall about Shakespeare and his plays. I find it amazing that Shakespeare's still as popular as ever, and I started by asking Tony why this was the case, and why after all these years people still seem to be able to find something new to say about him. Speaking as a, an old university hack who's been teaching courses in this place since 1962, the Shakespeare course is the one thing which is utterly and deeply different every time I teach it. Trying to stop short of bardolatry, but it really is astonishing. I get the feeling that I begin to know my way round, to know that at least most of the chess moves of it. With Shakespeare, almost every time I read more than forty lines, I see something I'd never seen before, which is demonstrably there. erm He does seem to me to be the best. I mean all this common opinion is true. He is a writer of indefinite richness and it, it is amazing but the case. erm Nothing to add really. One does quite generally find more all the time. Do you think it was the case that when Shakespeare was actually writing these plays he had any real concept of the richness of what he was producing or is this erm all a superstructure which has been put there by various university professors since? Well, I think it's not erm a superstructure that's been put there, because, I mean for example when you get a particular idea, there are often other questions you can ask to check whether it's really present, to see whether the thing is alluded to at the appropriate point later in the plot and that sort of thing, and erm again and again you find that it is, that the thing you half suspected is mentioned by a character later. And when I find that I'm strongly inclined to suppose that Shakespeare has put it there. The question, whether he was conscious of all these layers when writing, seems to me unanswerable. I have no doubt that he was very very intelligent, in the ordinary meaning of the word, for example I think he probably had a very high I Q, for what that's worth. Ever since Ben Jonson people have thought of him piping native woodnotes wild and not being terribly educated. Education isn't the same thing as intelligence, he had lots of intelligence and not all that much education. I think he was conscious of a great deal probably, but at the same time, many writers will tell you, that they find when they've finished a poem or a play, things in it, demonstrably in it, systematically and intelligently present with real relations, which they don't remember writing. This is why you often get writers saying, ‘Don't ask me, look again at the poem,’ or ‘Trust the tale not the teller’. And the marvellous thing in Plato, of Socrates, erm when he'd been told by the Delphic oracle that he was the wisest of men, he, he started off like a sort of good Popperian scientist trying to falsify this, erm and he went round finding people wiser than himself, and he went to various people and they weren't any wiser, and then he thought, ‘Oh, the poets! They're marvellous people. They know so much.’ And he went to them, and he found that they hadn't a clue what they'd written, and he concluded, quite soberly, that they must have been visited by a Muse. Seems to me a very reasonable conclusion, I mean you can redress it up in Freudian terms and say their conscious did it, which is really very similar thing to say, I mean the unconscious becomes a sort of god in that case. erm So what I'm saying is, my guess is, and it's no more than that, that Shakespeare was probably conscious of a lot of it, but there's also probably an area that came from a very rich and active unconscious. But all that's just guessing, I mean we've no way of testing it. To what extent do you think that the creation of, of all these as it were structures on mhm on Shakespeare is a useful exercise, or do you think it's a little bit like sort of mediaeval philosophy in, in taking a little a, a long, long way? Well, it's like mediaeval philosophy in that it's not utilitarian. To me, the justification really depends on the fact that I view Shakespeare as a terminal good. That is to say I think that a world without Shakespeare in it would be a world substantially impoverished. I think Shakespeare is a good, complex thing in the universe . That I take as a sort of axiom, as, as, as given to start with in this argument. Then, it follows from that, that understanding Shakespeare, and keeping the understanding of Shakespeare alive, is also a good, because if for example this great, rich and wonderful thing were simply there in the world and no one could see him and no one could understand him and no one was any longer thinking or talking about him, that also would be a secondary impoverishment. And erm I don't feel any shame therefore about going on with it. Really what I was saying is I, I think probably came over but I will rephrase it. I'm sorry. There's a sense in which, to put it in current terms, Yes. When I say ‘I, I am cold’, Yes. I may just mean I am cold and Yes. it may not be a statement about my view of myself with No. regard to society and Sure. my particular stage of Yes. middle-age crisis and so on and so forth although you know given a certain number of intelligent people they could no doubt build an enormous Yes emphasis Well on, on a simple erm straightforward statement ‘I am cold’. And I just wondered whether, you know extrapolating backwards, whether we're doing the same disservice to Shakespeare. You, you're talking to the wrong man on this, I'm not in sympathy with you, you see. You're, you're putting the point about over-reading Shakespeare. You'd find lots of academics erm at the Shakespeare conference in Stratford, who would agree with you that there is far too much over-reading of Shakespeare. I tend to think it's rather hard to over-read Shakespeare, simply because of the experience of, of finding that my reading fell short on many occasions. It is very easy to read him wrong, and to make mistakes, and there are of course occasions when he does offer a brutal simplicity which it would be ridiculous to, to try and develop. I myself, for example, tend to be erm an old-fashioned Coleridgean psychologistic critic, you know, I look for motives in Shakespearean characters in ways which L C Knight's told us we shouldn't do. And I do this because I think Shakespeare encourages us to make inferences and to think about them in that way. However, if you take characters like Lysander and Demetrius in A Midsummer Night's Dream, it's obvious , even to me, that it would be ridiculous to try and look for complex psychology and motivation in them. You know, there are cases where you can over-read, sure, but by and large over-reading is not the main vice of Shakespearean criticism. If anything, we went the other way after erm ‘How Many Children Had Lady Macbeth?’ and we under-read. We decided that Shakespeare's plays were mere patterns of imagery without human beings in them, and, by a strange act of critical abnegation, deliberately blinded ourselves to all sorts of psychological insights, which the Victorians had been able to see, and are now being seen again. One of your major interests has been that of the relationship of allegory Yes. to Shakespeare in plays of one kind and another. erm Could you tell me a little bit about that? Well. My interest in allegory really began at quite a different point. I was initially troubled by a philosophical problem. Can I explain that? Do. Or try to? Go ahead. I was struck by the fact that in one of the dialogues of Plato, Plato gets very worried about the notion of beauty, because he thinks beauty is something which is beautiful. He also thinks beauty is that in virtue of which we call beautiful things beautiful. Now if the beautiful things are beautiful, and if beauty itself is beautiful, what of the beauty in respect of which both beauty and the beautiful things are beautiful? Is that also beautiful? Sorry, this is pretty mind-blowing. But he has got himself into difficulties because he thinks that beauty is not, so to speak, a logical construction that allows us to talk about particular objects in the world. He thinks it is itself a sort of spiritual thing. He thinks it is itself something beautiful that sort of swims down into our world and is incarnated in particular objects. And then he wonders about that because his own way of forming universals means that he'd have to do it all again and again and again, in an infinite regress. So he has a problem basically about calling beauty itself beautiful. Now, meanwhile, or not meanwhile, quite a lot later, in early mediaeval allegory, you find that the allegorical poet has a quite ordinary technical problem when he's writing about things like mercy and cruelty. He wants to show the relation of mercy and cruelty, and of course they conflict, so he writes a poem in which there's a battle and there's a character called Cruelty who comes and fights against a, a character called Mercy. Now Cruelty is going to be shown as cruel, because that's the way allegorical poetry works. Mercy is going to be shown as merciful. So as soon as they start to fight Mercy starts trying to forgive Cruelty and Cruelty easily wins, whereas he wants to say of course that Cruelty, in this God-governed universe, is going to be defeated by Mercy. So he's got a technical problem. His technical problem again arises basically from the fact that he calls Cruelty cruel. Most modern philosophers would say it was nonsense to say that cruelty was cruel, you can only call people cruel, particular things. So there they both are, Plato with a metaphysical problem, the poet with a technical problem, because of their habit of referring to universals with adjectives derived from the universal. Calling beauty beautiful, calling cruelty cruel. When I looked at all this stuff, it came to me that it was very interesting that they thought of beauty as beautiful and cruelty as cruel. It mean in fact that they were thinking of abstractions in quite a different way from the way we think of them. erm The technical word for this is that for them, universals are self-predicating. That sounds very dry-as-dust and unintelligible. It means, in effect, that they had a quasi-sensuous way of seeing abstractions. They saw abstractions as in some way warm and coloured, and the sort of things to which you could appropriately apply quite vivid adjectives. Now that in turn means that the poetry of the period, and the allegorical poetry of the period especially, is not, as F R Leavis would probably have assumed, to be divided into cold, intellectual abstractions and warm, sensuous particulars. There is a sense in which the very abstractions have a sensuous property, perhaps through a philosophical mistake, but nevertheless it was the way their minds were built. You can see their minds were built that way because of the problems they get into both philosophically and technically. Therefore, I decided that I had the clue to something that had long baffled me, that whereas Leavis's strict division of the world into sensuous particulars and more intellectual abstractions — I hope I'm being fair to him, I'm caricaturing and shortening — whereas this was applicable to the modern period, it probably wasn't to the period, I decided I think roughly before the eighteenth century. And with this in mind I then turned to the mysterious last plays of Shakespeare that we've been talking about earlier, erm and tried to see whether the sense one gets in those plays of love, for example, not as erm simply a logical construction for talking about the way people talk in relation to each other , but as some kind of spiritual entity, existing prior to the human subjects in the play, whether that sense could be in some degree confirmed and explained by an investigation of the general use of universals in the period and earlier. This erm approach could be explored with, with other sorts of literature, the Bible Yes indeed for example Yes, it I would have thought was a rich ground. it, it could. One thing that I had to say, frankly, at the beginning of my book on allegory, was that The Tempest was not the necessary base of that book. It was in fact just a peculiarly rich and extended example. And the kind of thing I was doing was in principle applicable to great numbers of texts. That was why, when you first asked me about this, I turned the whole question round and said, ‘You have to begin from the philosophical problem’. But indeed, it could be applied in many places. Let me pick up a few points which occur to me arising out of what you've just been saying. erm First of all, beauty, mhm which is a word which is used by all sorts of philosophers Yes. and erm wasn't it Ayer that made great erm mileage out of saying, ‘Just because there's a word for beauty doesn't mean to say that there's such a thing as beauty’. Yes, well, Ayer, there, stands as a sort of paradigmatic modern philosopher. And when I was saying earlier that it was just a logical construction to help you to talk about particular things, and I think Ayer would go along with that. He is in fact opposing himself to the view I was trying to get out of the older writers, namely that ‘beauty’ is the name of some sort of spiritual being. As a non-philosopher I always used to find that a slightly depressing statement, that of Ayer's about beauty, and it seemed to me that one could perhaps immediately follow that by saying ‘Just because there's a word for it maybe, you have it because you like it and you want to use it and isn't that self- validating in a sense?’ Well erm it may not be quite as depressing as you think. Someone who says there is no actual entity separate from the world called beauty could still be a chap who believed that the word ‘beautiful’ had a vivid and important use. He would simply say it refers to all those aspects of things which makes them beautiful, considered in sum. And that, if you think of that as a sort of mental object for a moment, is a very rich one. erm It doesn't for example necessarily imply that statements about beauty are merely subjective, or are delusory or are soft-headed or Though maybe Ayer would want to say that on another occasion. I mean Ayer can be very depressing, you know, I'd go along with that all the way. That's all that we have time for today. Until next week then, good-bye. This is the first in a new series of twelve programmes on opportunities in education. The contributors will largely be from the educational faculty at the University, and in this first programme I have with me Professor Tony Becher, who is Chairman of the Education Area. Tony, what do you think are the main trends in education today? Well, I think there are three perhaps one could erm broadly distinguish between. Conveniently one of them you could call long-term, one medium-term, and one short-term. If I think the short-term one first, that's perhaps the most obvious one, in the sense that most is written and talked about it at the moment, erm namely the cutbacks on expenditure in education. The medium-term one I would say is to do with broadly the attitudes of society towards education, and those attitudes have in fact undergone a fairly substantial change over the last ten years or so. And then the long-term ones are to do with demography, with the birth rate, with the number of children in schools which, as most people are probably aware, have gone down dramatically in the last decade. Well taking these in the order you suggest, the short-term. There are are cutbacks in education, there are cutbacks in everything in the, in the country at the moment and this is obviously linked with erm recession. How have the cutbacks affected education? Well, I think that particular factor has been the most negative one of all. If people get the impression that the education system is in a thoroughly depressed state, erm I would want to argue against that in general, but I think it is true that the short-term cutbacks have made everybody erm thoroughly anxious and miserable, anxious about their jobs, miserable about not being able to produce resources for education. And of course the one minor consolation is that that kind of trend is not necessarily going to last forever. erm It could be that erm with a different political regime, you might get a positive commitment not to run down things like the schools, the hospitals, British Leyland, erm British Airways, British Steel and the rest. But certainly at the moment, erm and at least until presumably the next general election, erm nobody can see much light at the end of that tunnel. One of the difficulties, I would imagine, is associated not just with the level of cutbacks, but also the scale of time in which they're have to be implemented. I could imagine institutions, for example, being told to be in a different position perhaps in five years' time or ten years' time, and being able to do this by a variety of means, working towards it, whereas, it seems to me it's a very much harder problem, although it's, it's understandable as I said in the, in the present circumstances, to actually be able to take on this properly and do a proper job of change in a time scale of perhaps one year or maybe even less than that in some cases. Well, that's absolutely right, of course. It's more at the medium-term level that you can talk about the system making sensible adjustments to new circumstances, and indeed, many schools and many Local Education Authorities have simply had to do that, they've had to erm adjust to much smaller numbers of pupils, correspondingly smaller numbers of teachers, and a much more static situation generally. That adjustment has not been without its advantages, in fact. Well, let's hear about some of the advantages. One of them is at the post-compulsory level of schooling, where people no longer have to be at school. There's been an increasing tendency for people to stay on at school because they really want to, where it was one of the great criticisms of the boom years that people simply stayed on the escalator regardless, didn't think whether they wanted to stay on to, into sixth form, didn't think whether they wanted to go on to university or higher education, erm just did it without thinking. Nowadays it is much more a matter of choice. It's also clear that the teacher population has erm improved in the sense that it's become much less mobile. In the days of very rapid expansion, teachers in some inner-city schools stayed there on average about three years. Now you can't really get a coherent staffing policy within a school in that kind of flux, whereas now people perhaps erm a bit too much at the opposite extreme but nevertheless erm do know that they're committed to being in the school and have a, therefore a commitment to it, a commitment to improving their own work and, and their collective work. Well, we are going to pick up, later in the series, erm at least two aspects that you've mentioned. erm Professor Ron Dore is going to talk a bit about when education should stop and I suspect will be saying some of the things that you've already hinted at, and then later on Professor Colin Lacey will be talking about some aspects of teachers and teaching and training of teachers, and I suspect he will have something to say about mobility of teachers and careers of teachers as, as well. Let's move on to the medium-term question and get away from the perhaps the more depressing end of this time spectrum at any rate. erm You said that this is largely a question of, of social circumstances, accountability, erm? That kind of thing. There was a time, I think, in the late sixties, when erm the education service did itself very little good by going along with the general mythology that you had only to put more money into the schools to service, to solve all social problems. The over-optimism of that became very clear erm in the mid-seventies, and people all over the world, not just in this country, began saying, ‘What are we doing? Why are we putting such huge proportions of our gross national product into schooling when it doesn't seem actually to resolve the worst social problems, it doesn't seem to erm improve erm greatly the prospects of employment and so on.’ Well, education having been oversold in that way, erm the pendulum swung very strongly in the opposite direction, and I think, for a while, starting with the so-called ‘Great Debate’ under James Callaghan, education became very undersold. People kept saying, ‘Oh, well, the schools have got to justify everything they do to the public, they've got to be accountable.’ erm And certainly the work which Julia Knight and Michael Eraut and I were involved in, those two will be talking of course later in the series, brought out some of the problems that were generated by that atmosphere of distrust. I think that's greatly improving now, partly because I think the schools have adopted a very responsible attitude towards it, on the whole. They haven't said, ‘Oh, well, we're not going to tell you anything,’ but they haven't either erm gone overboard as the American schools, many of them, have done, into becoming simply the ephemeral erm products of local opinion. I think that that trend is, on the whole, a fairly healthy one, and it's meant the schools have begun to be far more conscious about their responsibilities, not just in general, but, but about particular responsibilities, erm responsibilities such as erm dealing more effectively with handicapped pupils, dealing with ethnic minorities and so on, again erm issues which other people in the series will be talking about. erm I remember that a friend of mine was involved in the work of the Plowden Committee which, as you know, Brian, was dealing with erm teaching in primary schools, and erm was asked by the Ford Foundation to work with a small team in America spreading the ideas discussed in the Plowden Report in the States. And the whole thing was really a dismal flop because the context was so very different, the expectations were different, the kinds of things that you were saying. So you're really sounding a note of warning over translating or transferring one set of norms from one culture to another without being really rather cautious about it . In some aspects. Of course there's another erm respect in which education systems all over the world behave in an uncannily similar way. erm The fashions that sweep through different countries, educational technology was one, the independent learning movement was another, those kinds of fashions seem to know no frontiers, and one finds arguments being repeated in Stockholm very much as they were advanced in erm Brighton or in Tokyo or in other places. Moving on to your third point, the long-term aspects of education, you said these are largely demographic? Well, I was erm trying to point out that the most stable element in a sense in a very changing system is pupil numbers, because you always know, pretty well exactly, how many pupils you are going to have at any given time. And you know some years in advance if you're in a secondary school erm that the total secondary school population is going to drop by, say, erm fifteen per cent in the next five years or whatever it might be. Now of course you can't predict at the level of the individual school what the population is going to be, but you can nevertheless be very clear that the system as a whole is going to have many erm fewer pupils. Of course nobody knows whether that downward curve is going to start going upward again or how fast it is starting to go upward. erm There are one or two people who have just begun to identify a faint movement back into an increase in numbers, but over very many years you can know pretty well exactly where you are as far as the total number of pupils you have to provide for is concerned, and therefore, in that sense, the system can plan its resources for a known population. Well, that sounds as if it's the sort of thing that ought to happen. erm I just sometimes wonder whether the numbers erm are right. erm I remember a few years ago when there was a great panicky shutting down of teachers' training colleges. Well, alas, in that particular case, there was a panicky policy, because they delayed drawing the proper consequences from their data for too long. In fact erm there are now, you could say, too many teachers in the system overall, and that's why there are new proposals erm both in the colleges and in the universities to cut back on the number of teachers that are being trained. You've got, again, a much more stable population, there aren't nearly so many teachers, young women teachers who leave the system to get married and then perhaps don't go back at all, or only go back on a part-time basis. erm The whole nature of the stock of teachers has changed and on, I'm afraid, anybody's reckoning, there are rather too many of them. What do you consider to be the encouraging trends in education these days? What's really happening that's good? Well, I think, it is this much greater caring for detail, for individuality. In expansion, erm people were interested in getting bigger schools, getting more teachers, getting more pupils, getting more resources, and on the whole they tended to forget the individuality at the expense of the large numbers. Now, partly I think as a result of the numbers being fewer, but partly as a result of simply a greater awareness of need, I think, the schools are more caring places, they do try erm not to treat erm minority groups as just annoying variants on the majority group, they try to erm think through their problems and to help to meet them. And that, I think, is, in humane terms, perhaps the most important thing that's, that's happening in education today. Thank you very much, Tony. Well, that's all that we have time for today. Next week I shall be talking to Dr Johanna Hello. This is another programme in our series from the University, in which we share with you news and views concerning activities that are going on here. In these programmes, we're talking with people in the community who have particular contacts with us. And Graham Mayhew, who is my guest today, is a particularly good example of somebody who has contact with us at all sorts of different levels. Graham, I want to start by asking you about you being Mayor. You look far too young to be a Mayor, but you've just finished being Mayor for Lewes. Yes, I was the youngest ever Mayor of Lewes by a clear ten years, I'm the only one who's ever been Mayor in his twenties, and I think that came about probably because the family had been in the town since the beginning of the century, erm and I'd been involved in local politics since about eight or nineteen, I was on polling stations and so on. And so when I got elected to the Council I think one or two people at any rate felt that it was quite natural that I should have the opportunity fairly soon. And so you were the youngest ever Mayor of Lewes? Yes. The previous youngest was thirty-eight when he took over, and I was twenty-eight. Well that's, as you say, a record by ten years. Did you actually enjoy being Mayor? Oh yes, I mean it's tremendous fun actually, because it's one of those jobs which you can make more or less whatever you want out of. And providing you're sort of enthusiastic enough and you actually put the time in and the effort, then people respond. What are the things that you introduced that were different from previous Mayors? Last year was the centenary of the Borough Charter. So on the one hand I was trying to restore the traditions of the thing. erm We tried to reintroduce some of the pomp and ceremonial. And then on the other hand, I felt that the mayoralty often didn't seem terribly relevant to people of my generation, and so I tried to involve a lot of young people in various activities, and the offshoot of that has been a Youth Advisory Committee which I set up, which at the moment is in the process of trying to negotiate with the County Council for some premises to try and increase the sort of youth club type evening provision in the town. Well, my son Andrew was involved with some of these discussions erm What I didn't learn firsthand, myself, I learnt secondhand from him. I think that's an absolutely excellent idea to involve the younger people. Do you, do you regard your efforts in that direction as being successful? Well, it's really too early to say. I think it's been successful in trying to break down barriers a bit, and I think at least some of the representatives erm the head boy and girl and deputy head boy and girl at Priory School and some of the people from Rings School and so on at least have contact now on a fairly regular basis with local councillors, local council officials and so on . I think it enables young, the young people that have been coming to those meetings to find out too the problems that councillors have and local authorities have, in actually trying to carry out the sorts of things they want. For example, on the building that we're talking about shifting, first of all we've got to find a site for the thing, then we've got to get planning permission, then we've got to get the actual permission of the owner of the land, then we've got to make sure that erm electricity's laid on, that there's erm water laid on, that there's some sort of toilet or other facilities and so on , and when you add all that lot up, it's quite a complicated sort of series of bureaucratic procedures you've got to go through, and it's not a question of, you know, of people saying to us, ‘Well, as councillors, well, do this for us,’ and we can magic it out in six months out of thin air. There's an awful lot of paperwork that's got to be gone through, an awful lot of people to see, an awful lot of red tape really to get through, first, I mean just to make sure that the thing's safe and complies with health and safety standards. And that's something which you have to get across to young people, and if they're involved in the actual discussions on this, they're involved in the organisation, they begin to see the complexities, and they're less inclined to think, to automatically assume that erm people aren't on their side and don't want to listen. And of course Lewes is a small enough town that it's possible for ordinary people to be involved in, in central activities like council activities and so on. Yes, I think it's a small enough town for people to get to know who their representatives are, to get to know each other, to get to know who runs which societies and organisations in the town, and that creates a sort of an area of erm communal feeling that you don't get in a place that's say five or six times as big. You know, Lewes is about the right sort of size for that, people don't get too much on top of each other, but at least they can find their way around. I know that you're a historian by profession. Did this allow you to reintroduce, rediscover old traditions in Lewes that had been lost? Yes, I mean I run a series for one of the local newspapers on past Lewes mayors, and the amount of work that I had to do for that meant that I picked up all sorts of pieces of information about what other mayors had tried in the past, and things that had been successful and things that had been disasters, and as it was a centenary, I went to a lot of trouble to look up exactly what had happened a hundred years ago, and to try and recreate the ceremonial connected with that. And then when we elected erm two people Honorary Freemen of the town, erm I got in all of the other mayors from Sussex, asked them to come along with their robes and their mace-bearers and so on, and we had this very sort of grand ceremonial procession in the assembly hall which was packed house of about four hundred people. My only regret on that particular occasion now is that I didn't organise properly getting it videotaped, because it would have been a nice thing to keep, but as far as I could I kept to the traditions of mayoral ceremonial on those sorts of occasions. erm Lewes has only had a mayoralty for a hundred years, and so its ceremonial is somewhat new, but one was able to draw on the traditions in places like Rye where it goes back to the thirteenth, fourteenth centuries and erm I used some of the phraseologies out of sixteenth century Rye documents and so on in my Lewes mayoralty on these sorts of ceremonial occasions, and introduced some of the ceremonial which I knew was authentic to mayoralties elsewhere in Sussex. And I think it, it sort of paid off in making people feel in the town during the year that they had a Mayor, that the ceremonial actually meant something and related to them. And certainly I still find tremendous numbers of people who sort of come along and invite you to things, people who before would have probably said, ‘Oh, it's a waste of money,’ and I think we did quite a lot to, to change that attitude. Why is it that mayors only existed in Lewes for a hundred years, seeing it's such an old town? Primarily because the town's basically a Saxon foundation. It's sort of gridiron pattern streets on the south side of the High Street. On the north side, that's all disrupted by the Castle, and as far as one can tell, when the town and the area around it, the of Lewes was ceded to William de Warren, most of the local powers of the town council, such as it was, were taken away and subverted, and the town became a manorial borough. Now that sent Members of Parliament to Westminster from the end of the thirteenth century. It only had a very sort of ramshackle corporation because the lords of the manor of Lewes kept control fairly tightly on what the town was actually allowed to do and on its internal freedoms. Although there was a sort of mediaeval corporation it didn't have the royal charter, and so in the end of the seventeenth century it was somewhat subverted and really there was no proper town government to speak of until the beginning of the nineteenth century with the borough commissioners and then later on with the Mayor and Corporation which was set up in 1881. Well, you are you've obviously studied your local history very closely and I believe you actually run local history classes, don't you? Yes, I've got four going at the moment actually, it's rather ludicrous really. I've got one in Battle on Tudor Battle , all about the dissolution of Battle Abbey and erm what happened to the town afterwards, one on Elizabethan Rye, which is erm was notable because it was the largest place in Sussex at the time, very important port, lot of trade for London went to Rye, and there's a lot of stuff relating to piracy and erm warfare. For example, in fifteen fifty-seven, eight, when Queen Mary lost Calais to the French, the income of the town corporation doubled in that year from three hundreds pounds to six hundred and that's entirely because they pulled in an awful lot of French boats and then charged them all a lot of ransom money before they sent them back to France. So that sort of thing's quite fun. erm I've got courses in Eastbourne and erm a course in Brighton on mediaeval stained glass in fact. I've always enjoyed teaching, it's something which I feel is very important for somebody who's a historian, I don't like just doing research without communicating. And I think if you've got an interest and you can communicate it well to people, then it stimulates their enjoyment, and of course in a time when there's going to have to be more and more leisure, I think that's very important. And you're doing these courses under the aegis of the Centre for Continuing Education at the University? Yes, that's right. I mean erm the second main paymaster of myself you know is the University in fact and erm without them I don't suppose I could have sort of financed the extra side of sort of clothing everything else for my mayoralty. And do I understand that there's a, a day school planned in the near future? Yes, I've got a day school on December the fourth, it's a Saturday, it's all day from ten o'clock to about five. We're going to be looking at Lewes in the period during the late middle ages, early modern period when it had an unchartered corporation, how the town was governed and so on. We're going to be looking at erm the contrast between and places like Rye, which did have a chartered corporation, and we're going to be looking at sort of trade, at the effects of epidemics on the town erm and so on. I should think it should be great fun. And you don't have to have a history degree to come along to one of these things? No, we don't expect any background knowledge at all. And details can be got from the Centre for Continuing Education at the University. I'm sure if anyone wrote in they would be sent an appropriate form. That's right. How much does it cost? I think it's six pounds fifty for the erm for the day. They have to buy their own lunch in the University Refectory, but that's an experience in itself, so anybody who wants to come and play student for the day, it's, it's great fun. Well, that sounds something to recommend for that December Saturday. erm Looking at other aspects of your life and work, your official history activities are with the East Sussex Record Office at Pelham House. That's right, yes, I run the Search Room there, which means that erm people come in to Pelham House, they usually meet me at a desk on the end of a telephone and I put them onto the documents that they want to look at and I make sure they're ordered up from where they're kept in one of the various repositories and strongrooms that we've got, and then I produce them for them and erm if they need any help reading them and so on I give them that. And are most of the documents in Sussex now kept in the East Sussex Record Office? Well, there are two record offices for Sussex, there's the East Sussex one, under the East Sussex County Council in Lewes, and the West Sussex Record Office at Chichester. An increasing number of official documents are being kept at record offices, all of the parish registers for the various East Sussex parishes are now held, with one exception, at Lewes. erm All of the local authority records, as far as we've been able to get them in, are held there. We're trying at the moment to get in Nonconformist church records, or at least to get copies of them if the churches don't want to let us have them, because they're quite important for the nineteenth century history of East Sussex, and erm really any help that erm that we can get from the general public who've got old documents relating to their properties, minutes of any organisations that they've been involved in or that used to exist and that's now collapsed, anything like that that can add to the history of the county, we're always very grateful to receive. And again, the Record Office is something that lay folk can just come in and look up books and ask questions if they wish to. Yes, it's open Mondays to Fridays from quarter to nine through to quarter to five, and anyone can just walk in and we'll do our best to help them and produce whatever it is they want to see, providing we've got it and we can find it. Well, I've actually spent some hours in the Record Office, I don't think while you've been there, erm doing a bit of ancestor hunting, so I am familiar with your, your work and activities. Yes, well anybody can come in and trace their family so long as they know that they came from Sussex at some point and they've got some, something to work on, they've got some idea of which town or which village they came from. Then usually the parish registers and things like the census returns over the last hundred years are usually able to help them. One other contact that I think you have with us is that you sing in the Meeting House choir. Well, yes. I hadn't actually managed to make it yet this term because of all the teaching preparation I've been doing but erm I've done that for the last two years and erm it's been quite an important activity because it enabled me, after I came back down to Lewes, to help to get to know a few people in the University and to sort of expand my contacts. And the Meeting House is one of those places which is open to the general public on Sundays for religious worship, there's a Catholic service at half past ten and an interdenominational one at half past eleven. There's a choir which produces, sings various mediaeval and erm Renaissance and eighteenth century anthems and so on, and they do a Christmas Carol Service and so on , and it's really quite, I find it quite nice to come to, because it doesn't have the sort of narrow denominationalism that many of the local churches have. You've got experience of being at two other universities, you've did your undergraduate work at York and then you did a doctorate at Oxford. How do you find Sussex compares with those two? Well, it's difficult really. erm Architecturally I suppose it doesn't compare with a mediaeval university. I liked York very much, because it was set round a lake and erm it was the first one I went to, but I must say that of the other modern universities that I know I would say that Sussex was erm was the other best one that I've been to and the one that I've felt most erm comfortable and happy in. Thank you very much, Graham. Next week we shall have another member of the local community as our guest. Until next week then, goodbye. Good evening. This programme comes to you from the University of Sussex. You could say that everyone at the University is involved in education, at least in the broader sense. But there are groups within the University that have been given specific responsibility for certain elements, and the largest of these is the Education Area. Professor Norman Mackenzie is Chairman of Education. I asked him to explain how the Area relates to the rest of the University. Yes, it's erm a very small section of the University compared to Arts or Science erm in fact there are only twenty-five teaching members of faculty involved in education, but I think it's a pretty important erm part of the University. It's a part of the University that has quite a lot of contact with the community in Sussex. This is a, a helpful and reciprocal relationship because our students, who are in our Postgraduate Certificate of Education course, that's university graduates who are training to be teachers, do go out into schools in this area and do their teaching practice in those schools in a rather interesting way and we developed a scheme, here in Sussex, which was quite novel when we started it about ten years ago. The students go out and spend part of each week all through the school year in the schools, and the teachers in those schools, whether they are science teachers or history teachers or English teachers, collaborate with us in helping to train those students. And they come back into the University two days a week. So there's a reciprocal relationship with quite a number of schools in this area of a rather novel and to us extremely helpful and rewarding kind. What do you do for existing teachers? We're very much involved in what's called in-service training, in the retraining and helping of teachers who've been in the profession for some years, and who need to get new qualifications or refreshment in their professional work. And that of course is quite erm an important part of our work. The in-service kind of erm activity is of course reflected in our, many of our courses, not merely in short courses, but in the fact that we run erm Masters courses, erm M As in Education of several kinds, and students in those courses are mainly teachers who have been released for a whole year to come and do a full-time course. But there again we have part-time courses for the M A and the in-service B Ed for teachers who live in the Sussex region and can study part-time. And then we have research students erm who are doing M Phils, Masters of Philosophy, or D Phils, Doctors of Philosophy, and erm research with us. And that adds up, one way and another, to about two hundred and forty students who are erm working with us at any given time. What are the other responsibilities of the Education Area? It includes at present what we call the School of Education. We don't want to get too much into these complicated terms, but the School of Education is the link between the University and other institutions of higher education like Brighton Polytechnic and the West Sussex Institute of Education as it now is, and of course, up to now, colleges at Eastbourne like Chelsea and the Eastbourne College of Education. And all the students in those colleges that are studying education have been doing so for awards at the University of Sussex, so we're actually a much bigger family than the students we have here on the site at Thelma . Altogether, in round figures, there are about three thousand students taking education awards at the moment. That number regrettably is shrinking because the cutback in teacher training, but up to now there is a very considerable interchange between the University and the Polytechnic and the colleges, at the level of initial teacher training, as well as cooperation in in-service work. Presumably there is research in education, too. We have a rather significant research effort. If I can put it in, not, I hope, in a boastful way, but to illustrate how important this is to us, about forty per cent, getting on for half of the income of the Education Area last year, was made up not of normal University funds, but of funds attracted from outside to support research from private foundations and from government departments like the Department of Education and Science. And we have therefore a very substantial and helpful research as well. Do you train teachers for both primary and secondary schools? We are, on the whole, training teachers for middle and secondary schools. We do have a small number who come to us to do primary training, but it's erm it's one group only, and it's always been a rather special group. We don't cater to a large number of students intending to do first school work, it's, our main interest has been in the middle and secondary school areas. Are there any special features about the way Sussex trains its teachers? Where I think we have tried to do something interesting is in this idea of giving the student a, a whole year's experience in the school to help them become professionalised, rather than the normal practice, the traditional practice of school practice, which meant going twelve, sixteen weeks into perhaps two bytes, into a school, and this does mean the student can get integrated with the school community and take part in the extramural life of the school, get involved in games and school plays and school outings in a way that's not possible if they're in and out on that short basis. But there is room for people, like myself for example, who have part interest in education, if I could put it that way, to spend some time working with you. You have some people who are part-mathematicians, part-educationists for example That's true. So you're not just a closed box of educationists. No, I think nobody would like that, either. Sussex has had what I think is a, a very unusual and valuable aspect, and that is that, to some extent people find their own level in their own work in teaching. If something interests you, you're free to go and explore the possibilities of teaching it, and you aren't shut into these watertight boxes that you're in that department and can never get out of it. And I think just as erm students of education draw, are taught by people from physics and mathematics and erm chemistry, just to take three examples right across the University, so several of us, in fact, do quite a lot of teaching in other areas of the University. I myself teach two history courses. The erm other people teach in sociology courses, other people are teaching in erm courses in the Culture and Community Studies School on literature and history and social policy. So there is quite a, a, a movement across those frontiers. Could you say a little bit more about the research going on in the Education Area? We've always tried to make our research projects pretty relevant to the real and contemporary problems of education. For instance, we have a large-scale project erm at the moment which is concerned with falling numbers in secondary education and what should be done about them. This project, we're very pleased, is directed by Doctor Eric Briot , you may remember was the Chief Education Officer in London until he retired and came to lead this project, and a man of very great standing in education field, and what he's looking at is the effect of the falling school populations, which is already hitting primary schools, on these large comprehensives that we've created. What's going to happen when the size of sixth forms shrinks? Can schools offer such a wide range of choice in the curriculum? erm Will we be able to maintain the erm the levels of staffing erm that's been possible so far? And I think this is a pretty critical problem, and of course it's not only based on Sussex schools, but it's based on a number of schools throughout the country which we're studying to see the effects of this programme. There's another one that's very much concerned erm with the real situation in schools, we call it the Accountability Project, you realise that accountability is a rather a hot and fashionable word in education these days. To whom is a school responsible and in what way? The relations between teachers and the parents and the school governs and the Local Education Authority. And this one is a very interesting project because it's being done under the director of, direction of Dr. Michael Eraut in the University, but it involves not merely the University but the East Sussex County Council. We are actually partners with the Local Authority on erm this research project. And we've had a great deal of helpful cooperation and it's very much erm going right into the schools, right into the whole system of government and control of the schools, erm and I think again is going to produce some very interesting results before too long. We've a third big project going at the moment, a very tricky one. erm The Schools Council, erm as you may remember, has been putting millions of pounds into educational research over the last dozen years, and all kinds of new curriculum ideas and patterns of organisation have emerged. erm Professor Lacey, a colleague who is at the moment erm the research advisor of the Schools Council, has a project based here which is looking at the impact erm of these Schools Councils projects over the years, which ones have made an impact, which have fallen away, why some have succeeded, why others have fallen off. And we are in fact looking at these projects to see that there is, or if there is, good, not merely ordinary value for money, but good educational value for money, and what might be learnt for the future. These, as Norman Mackenzie has said, are major projects in educational research. And we shall be talking about them in detail in coming programmes. But there are many other interesting studies going on, concerned with all aspects and at all levels of education. Stephen Ball has been investigating the differences between streamed and mixed ability classes in comprehensives. Again, we shall be hearing about his conclusions in another programme. But this is what he had to say about one of the side effects that he noted. It seemed that the pupils in the mixed ability classes developed more slowly socially than the pupils in the streamed classes. This was manifested in a number of ways, particularly in that pupils still in their second year in the mixed ability classes would be talking about playing with their friends, and generally their attitudes towards the teenage culture of pop music and magazines and fashions and discotheques didn't seem to develop so quickly as it had in the streamed situation. And I think really this comes from the problem of those pupils in the streamed situation, in the bottoms streams in particular, who found that they wanted alternatives to school, when the, they were in an inferior position in the school, they were devalued if you like by finding themselves in the bottom streams, and so they tended to look for out-of-school things, alternatives to school, from which to gain their satisfactions, and they would look to the pop media, to fashion, to football, to these kinds of things, and in the mixed ability situation this certainly did not happen in the same way. So the, the children in a sense remained children longer in the mixed ability situation, and again this was something that the teachers found, found very pleasing, in that the, the pupils were remaining involved in the school much more and much longer. Carol Dyhouse has made a special study of women and education. She will be taking part in a programme on this subject on March the twenty-ninth. But as a preview, this was her reply when I asked her whether the problem was, not whether women needed more education, but that men needed educating about women. Men, perhaps, should be encouraged to realise that women want to speak up for themselves, they don't really like being told what they want by men. It's difficult, though, because if you talk to adolescent boys in schools they're violently opposed to women's liberation, they hate the name women's liberation, because they're very defensive perhaps about their own masculinity at that age, and their own masculinity is defined very much in terms of being superior to girls and having mums who wait on them at home. So it's difficult to challenge that kind of supposition at that age. Later on, it's easier. Boys need to be discouraged from assuming that they know what women's position is. I think it's, it really begins in the home, this, because mothers can do quite a lot in not educating their own sons to think of them as servants. A lot of women do this, they're very tolerant about boys' mess in the home and untidiness generally, and in a sense they, they lay the foundations, right from the very beginning, of boys' growing up to think of women as kind of household servants. This attitude, you know, boys will be boys and they make a mess and poor Mum has to do all the washing, is really quite, quite misguided because it, it does encourage those assumptions that mothers are there to tidy up after sons, and of course then sons when they grow up and get wives want to replace their mothers. So women themselves can do something about educating men in the home, starting with their sons. Talking to members of the Education Area about their researches, I was struck by the constructive relationships that they built up with the schools and groups that they studied. Many of the projects arose not just because they seemed to be suitable topics for academic research, but at the direct instigation of teachers or sometimes students. The roles of the researcher were seen in terms of helping to identify, study, and solve an educational problem, with the fullest collaboration. The premium was on being involved as a partner, or as an invited guest, rather than remaining as a detached outsider. Michael Eraut is concerned with evaluation in education, and had this to say. In my mind, the object of doing an evaluation is to create some kind of improvement in the situation that is being evaluated. I'm not interested in producing reports and publications out of evaluation studies, I'm interested in affecting the situation, and affecting it to the mutual satisfaction of the people involved in it. When I'm working with people on an evaluation or discussing evaluation in general, one of the major items of discussion always is, how can you consult other people, how can you get them involved? I say to them, ‘Look, don't start planning this whole thing on your own from the beginning. Go round and talk to the various people you know that are interested and say to them ‘Look, I'm planning to try and do this work, but I don't just want to do this on my own, I want to take into account other people's views.’ For example if I'm looking at O-level history, ‘What sorts of things do you think might be important, or what kinds of evidence do you think I ought to collect, or what issues do you think I ought to take into account?’’ So one tries to build up a kind of agenda of all the things that different people involved think might be important, before one tries to produce a plan as to how one's going to, to work. If people aren't interested in, in evaluation of something that concerns them, then nothing will happen at the end of it. I mean there's no earthly use doing a beautiful piece of evaluation erm which no one wants to know about, and publishing something that has no effect. We've heard about the Education Area, but there is one very important unit that works largely in the wider community, and that is the Centre for Continuing Education. I asked Professor Manny Eppell to describe the Centre's activities. What we try to do is to make available to people opportunities for study in depth and over a fairly long period of time, on issues and in subjects which are part of University activity. Now it could be said of course that we don't offer the same kind of very intense opportunities that are on offer to undergraduates, but in some senses, and many adults have testified to this, this is an advantage, because it enables people in their own time, and sometimes over a fairly prolonged period, to explore with a tutor, a scholar, the kind of interests that they have in the issues that have concerned them in society. It also provides an opportunity, and I think this is quite important, for people to get to know what is happening within the fields of expertise, which increasingly in our society become more and more specialised, more and more hedged off from one another, and in a sense I think that there is a very great danger if intelligent adults in the community, laymen in effect, don't have some idea, some coherent idea, of what's going on in these fields of specialisation and expertise. Now I'm sure you, Brian, would acknowledge that in a certain sense we are all laymen most of the time. However expert we may be in a fairly narrow field we are laymen to one another. I'm a layman to you and you're a layman to me in many senses, and therefore erm the, the, the fact that our students are in effect very often laymen is not something that detracts from their motivation to study, in many instances it's something that gives it stimulus and underlines it. There's another aspect to what we do, and that is that I think we are part of a very powerful developing movement in education, and it is based on the concept that education should not stop with the terminal rituals of school and college, and that education should be as much part of life, wanting to know, to find out, to get to grips with the body of information and knowledge that's available in society. And in a relatively small way, but when you think of the other universities doing the same sort of thing, in a larger way, we are offering this kind of opportunity to people. I think there's one other thing that's worth thinking about, and that is that many of our students come into the University for one-day schools, for lectures, for activities of this kind, and this gives an opportunity for a kind of reciprocal traffic, if you like, so that people outside who often have very odd ideas of what universities do and what they're about and what they're like, can actually see your University, participate in its activities, and we can see ordinary folk who sometimes ask the shrewdest questions and make sometimes what seem to be the most penetrating kinds of points about the sort of things that we take for granted. Many of my tutors have said that one of the most salutary of their experiences has been to work with a good adult class, which starts with no preconceptions, doesn't necessarily have a qualification in mind, and ask the kind of questions which would tend to be asked say in Swift's Gulliver Travels. What, what appear to be, as I said, naive questions very often are most penetrating and bring us up short because they involve things we've taken for granted for many, many years and perhaps ought to look at again. Could you give me an idea as to the size of the community which the Centre of Continuing Education covers, and also the number of courses and the students involved? That community, for historical reasons, happens at the moment to be East Sussex, the whole of East Sussex including Brighton, Eastbourne, Hastings and so on, and a substantial slice of West Sussex, so that our open community courses are available in these areas. The bulk of them, incidentally, are not in the University, some are, but they are in places that students can get to after their work, or easily from their families and their towns and villages throughout the, the county. In what way did furnishing change during the fifties? Apart from the fact that I think most people were able to afford a far bigger range of furnishings, for instance, the number of homes that actually had a carpet in the living room, there was very small percentage of people who could afford to have any sort of carpeting except for a small square of something in their living room. By the mid-sixties, you see, a large proportion of homes would have got fitted carpeting throughout, so there's that kind of difference. There's also the introduction of actual new pieces of furniture, like the coffee table, which you don't find in pre-war homes except in very élite, grand houses, but this is almost a, a standard fitting in a living room now. Can you think of any reason why the coffee table should have suddenly become so popular? Well, I think it's, it's largely to do with the changed uses of the living room, because I think one of the, one of the changes that I found in, in the way that people organise the rooms within their house, is changing over from having a best parlour, usually in the front, which was very seldom used except for inviting the vicar in or whatever, or laying out the dead, combined with a back kitchen, a family room, where you ate and so on, and a move over to having one combined living-dining room where all the family's activities went on. And I think tied in with this is people inviting people into their homes more. Also of course changes in actual eating habits. I think we tend to eat much faster, if you like, and, and to take more snacks, and I think it's interesting that the rise of the use of a coffee table ties in a lot with the rise of people having televisions in their front rooms, because introducing the television made all kinds of changes into, just the way people arrange their chairs, not centring them round the fire any more, and a coffee table's a very neat addition to that kind of arrangement. To what extent do you extrapolate from looking at furnishings to social conditions? I think it's very hard to separate the two, but it's a big chicken and egg, to say which came first, the social conditions or the furnishings is erm is very hard to say, but they are, I mean like in that example that I just gave, they're very strongly tied up. Social conditions certainly affected Mrs. Daisy Sawyer's choice of furnishing. She remembers setting up her first home, right after the war. They were dockets that we had, after the war, to buy our furniture, because there wasn't much furniture around, we was only allowed so many per family. And once you spent those dockets, you just had to go and buy secondhand if you wanted any more. There's quite a few around us because then we was not going onto a council estate from the one room, and we were all in the same boat together. We was all having a hard time, a rough time, and doing what we could to make our homes look respectable and nice for people to come into. Helen, could you call this kind of personal recollection about furnishings a type of alternative history, perhaps like oral history? Yes, because this is describing, analysing how ordinary people lived, what was going on that enabled them to live in this way. Yes, it's a kind of history that history books are not usually written about. When you walk into a living room, what sort of clues do you get? I get clues as to how a particular family organises its life, whether the room is a room for the whole family or a, a room that's perhaps excludes children or a room that's for best, that kind of which not only tells you something about that particular family but, when you've seen enough homes, tells you about general patterns that are going on in social life. Do you find it easy to deduce class from looking at a living room? No, I wouldn't say I did, and I wouldn't say that's what I was looking for, particularly, because again I mean it's a much abused notion that perhaps that class disappears in postwar Britain, I think that's a political issue that was an attempt to make it look as if class was disappearing, class differences rather, but I think there is a lot of evening out, there's not the stark differences of the quality of life of furnishings that you would have found say in homes before the war. Where do you do your research? Well, part of it I've done in the Kent Town, East Brighton area. Particularly in the streets that have undergone a great deal of change since the war, like the street where I live myself, which is another thing that prompted me to, to go into the research in the first place, which is erm a house of small Victorian erm I believe the estate agents call them artisans' cottages , and this kind of area which, there's a great deal of this sort of property in Brighton, has undergone enormous changes since the war from being multi-occupied before the war, with one family on each floor, were regarded immediately after the war as slums and were scheduled for demolition, but they've been a great lease of life all over the country, this sort of property, and been subjected to a process which has come to be known as gentrification, which has meant that when the middle class couldn't afford to, to buy semi-detached in suburbs they took to buying this kind of smaller property in town centres, thereby introducing a whole new element into streets that had never seen these, this kind of things done to houses before. Are people generally willing to let you into their houses? It varies a great deal. I think older people are quite naturally rather anxious, and they're also rather puzzled as to why people should be interested in what their homes were like, now or twenty years ago. But on the whole once I've got talking it's been very successful, and people are always amazed at what they do remember in great detail about how they got things, why they got them, when they got them, and I think by and large the people that I have talked to have found it very interesting to do for themselves as well as for me. Generally what reasons did people give for choosing furniture? An enormous variety of reasons, and by and large not the sort of reasons that advertisers would hope that they did give. I think again the sort of picture that you get from books is rather like a stage set, with everything new from the year nineteen fifty-eight or whatever, all bundled into a room together, this is what it looked like. Well, of course, real homes don't look like that at all and the way that their things are accumulated is not like that. erm A lot of people gave as a reason for getting a particular piece of furniture the fact that it was given to them by their parents when they got married, or that a neighbour was trying to get rid of it, or that somebody from work had passed it on and they needed one. When it came to new furnishings, people usually they found it difficult to say why apart from‘I got it because I liked it’, or ‘I got it because it was cheap’. Who in the homes made the furnishing decisions? Well this provided some very interesting information I think, because I was very surprised the degree to which men were involved in decisions about what to put in the home and had very strong opinions about quite small details of colour and this kind of thing as to what went into the home. But there did seem to be some pattern by which certain objects were very much considered the wife's province. I mean I didn't find any husbands going out and choosing lampshades, for instance, or they weren't particularly bothered about the colour of curtains. It's the kind of objects that get changed more frequently, and particularly those to do with colour, were mainly the wife's decisions. But obviously the heavier pieces of furniture, the more durable ones, are also the more expensive, and when it's largely the money for them's going to come out of the husband's pocket they're going to have more of a stake in erm in saying what they want. And the kind of criticisms split down the middle, as well,on furnishings, that by and large men were far more concerned about the, the lack of durability in modern furnishings compared with their parents', whereas women weren't so concerned with that. Generally, have you discovered any particular changes in Brighton's home furnishing over the past generation? Yes, I'd say there was a definite move towards the same kinds of objects, the same kinds of styles and qualities of furniture being found in a wide variety of income groups, areas of the town, different types of houses, a much more over-all feel, really, a move towards classlessness I suppose you could call it. The fact that a very similar kind of furniture can be bought in an enormous variety of different places, there's not this same idea that ‘Oh, I wouldn't ever go in that sort of shop to buy it because it's not a place for my sort of person’. In addition to becoming less class-distinct, homes generally got more comfortable as well, didn't they? Yes, I think one of the main things that, that made this possible was the improvements in heating. Heating for instance in more than just one room, which for instance became standard in council house building in the late forties onwards. The move towards much more efficient methods of heating like convector heaters right on through to central heating, so that you could use more just that back parlour where the cooker was that kept the place warm. For instance bedrooms, much more use of bedrooms for actually living, particularly for children, although I think that is one of the few instances where you can discover class patterns if you like. That in lower income groups, not because you couldn't afford to heat the bedrooms, but there's a definite idea that bedrooms are for sleeping in, rather than living in. What direction do you see your research taking you in? Well it's hard to know where to stop, really erm I mean the, the difficulty of concentrating on one area of the country, is that we're of course I think there must be very great differences in different areas of the country. Thank very much to Helen Martin and Mrs. Daisy Sawyer. Next week on Ideas in Action we'll pay a visit to the Brighton Youth Orchestra, and take you back in this first talk about the art of film erm to the very early days, and these are difficult I think for us to imagine because we're so used today to sound films, of all the effects in, in the theatres, we're used to the great stars, we're used to the big subjects, and yet the film began in the smallest possible way, it began really as a sideshow, it began as a hobby for a group of people, sometimes they would be French, sometimes they would be British, sometimes American, the early pioneers, whose main interest was to produce a camera, which would look like a still camera and yet somehow would manage to produce a picture which moved when it was projected on a screen. So the first people who made films, the first people who invented the apparatus by means of which they could be made, were relatively simple showmen or photographers, or in certain cases like Edison, erm the, you know a professional inventor, who would use either his staff to develop a piece of apparatus, or would do it himself. And this is really why the beginning of cinema is an international thing. Because now one man, now another would produce some part of what became in the end the motion picture camera. Now you may say ‘Why on earth talk about this sort of thing on Brighton Radio?’ Well, there's a very good reason for this because as it happens erm Brighton was a filmmaking centre in the very earliest days. erm There was one particularly noted filmmaker, a man called George Albert Smith, who worked in Brighton, but there were others too, there was a man called John Bennett Stanford and another called Esmé Collings. And Brighton, strange as it may seem, became, in Britain, one of the small pioneer centres where these first movies were made. Now one has to get this picture into some sort of perspective against, as I said, the big films of today. These men, all of them, were people who first of all were devoted to their cameras. Some of them actually made their own cameras, and even more strangely, used the cameras to project the films after they had made them. In the daytime they would shoot erm with their apparatus, the short strips of film, in say the streets of the towns where they were, and then in the evening they would use the same apparatus adapted to project the films onto a screen. And the kind of thing they made of course erm were just short moments of motion, short silent films which showed action which lasted about a minute. It might be a scene in the High Street, or it might be some particular local personality who it would entertain the people to see in the evening, erm their faces on the screen. They couldn't hear any speech. erm These films could only just run and show the faces, show the expressions, show a little action. And this really was the basis therefore of the first films, they were really demonstrations that pictures could move, and this was sufficient for people to pay a few pence to come in erm and look at the films. Now this was the kind of man that George Albert Smith of Brighton was, and he made a whole range of short films, as all the early filmmakers did, erm publishing a catalogue every so often, and offering his films for sale to other showmen, because as the years passed erm these films became extremely popular. Now we're dealing with the year about eighteen ninety-six onwards, and the filmmakers of this time erm would make this large number of short films, make several in a day if they had the, if the, they had the opportunity and the subjects, and then they would print catalogues of these pictures and market them. Market them not only in this country but abroad. It became quite big business. Now I remember it was about oh twenty years ago that Rachel Low, the daughter of celebrated cartoonist, and I, we were both on the staff of the British Film Institute then, erm decided we would write the early history of British film. And we travelled down to Brighton from London and met in his home George Albert Smith, who was then in his nineties, a charming old man, very good-looking, and very, very interested to share his experiences of the past with us, and I remember he showed us his account books. And there it was, in the late nineties, he was adding up his pence and his shillings and the odd pound or two here and there, these were his costs of making the pictures that he was making in those days, and then when you turned over and we came to nineteen hundred, nineteen hundred and one, nineteen hundred and two, erm the figures had broadened and under the pounds into three figures and then into four. And this was what kind of business filmmaking became. It was a matter of very small beginnings for everybody, and then as the pictures that they made became more and more popular, more and more acceptable, used not merely in fairgrounds or in odd corners of shops and this sort of thing, for the odd fifteen minutes or twenty minutes of movie, but entered into the music halls, became one of the acts in the music hall entertainment erm this really was the foundation of a new industry, a new industry of entertainment, a new industry of information. This was the background to it all. George Albert Smith was later of course erm to come on and make a big name, a world name for himself as the inventor of the first colour process, a very simple, two-colour process, but it was invented by him in Brighton, and it was the first world colour process. And it was patented erm in nineteen hundred and six, and was called Kinemakolour . And in nineteen hundred and eight, erm this Kinemakolour was put on the market with a special company and erm Smith in nineteen hundred and eight was awarded a silver medal by the Royal Society of Arts erm for his invention. And this colour process was to be used erm Delhi Durbar for example was, was filmed in colour by Smith, and this marvellous colour process, at least marvellous for its day, erm was known everywhere. Unfortunately it resulted in a patent war, and finally by the mid-teens, about nineteen fifteen, erm the process died as a result of the rivalries of other companies. Nonetheless, George Albert Smith's name stands as the inventor of a colour process which was viable, which was shown worldwide, and which presented for the first time on the screen a photographically produced colour picture. All the others had been hand-tinted or hand-painted, and this after all was not the real thing. So this was another reason for his, his place in film history. Now you may wonder the kind of films these early pioneers made. I've mentioned one or two kinds of very simple films, but of course they soon became much more erm elaborate in a, in a simple way elaborate. They lasted much longer, they lasted five or ten minutes. erm Some were what we would call nowadays newsreels. Some of these newsreels I might say were faked, I don't mean George Albert Smith's were faked, but erm there was for example the case erm of the Boer War. The Boer War was on and the first sort of major conflict erm in the period of movie history, and naturally people wanted to see what the war was like. So it was much easier if you hadn't got a lot of money to fake some action, and produce some fake Boer war newsreels than to do the real thing. So I'm afraid that some were faked and some were real. And this was to be the case with a lot of actuality pictures of the time. Nonetheless it was news really which brought people in beyond the mere curiosity of seeing pictures that moved, brought people in erm to these early shows. They wanted to see a battleship launched, they wanted to see Royalty in action, they wanted to see anything that was happening which was an event in the world, and so cameramen like George Albert Smith, and eventually George Albert Smith's staff, would go out around the world, much as it would happen now but in a much simpler way, erm to make actuality pictures. And in the course of time they began to make simple documentaries erm which would be something say the study of Pekin, if you happened to go there, or Italy if you happened to go, any country that to which you could go, you went and you made not just newsreels but also erm documentary studies of these films, of these places. That is they would really be the beginnings of what we would now call travelogues. Travelogues were immensely popular, people hadn't the resources to travel in those days easily unless they were wealthy, and here was a chance to see what the world was like in various places that were inaccessible erm to the average member of the audience. And then there were the vaudeville films. films which featured, although you couldn't hear their voices unfortunately yet, featured erm famous singers and artists of, of the variety stage. They would be featured and then a live player with a piano or what have you erm would produce the music which went with the action on, on the screen. And then there were trick films. Now the trick films came particularly out of the pioneers' own attitude to their apparatus. erm If you were not so much an artist as a technician, you became as a technician interested in what this camera of yours could do, and therefore George Albert Smith, who was primarily I would say a technical man rather than an artist, he was very interested in the trick film. Now trick films were the sort of first visual magic that the cinema could produce and erm these, these films you would see for example a motor car disintegrate and then reassemble itself, this kind of thing, people's clothes change, drop off and a new set of garments would come on, all this sort of thing, people's faces would change, their environment would change, their chairs would collapse under them and rebuild themselves, this sort of thing which could be done relatively easily once you knew how to do it. And the trick films were these, in a sense, the magic comedy form which erm these early films took. They were very, very popular and went all over the world. Well these were the main films. Only later were, was one to find it possible to develop a small comedy action or a small dramatic action on the screen, this would be around nineteen hundred and three, four, five, about five or six years from the beginning, that films of this sort would make. Well now I have in front of me my book that I wrote with Rachel Lowe about these erm these early film erm makers of Britain, and leafing it over I see some of the facts which lie behind the Brighton's, Brighton's contribution to this. Esmé Collins, I read, was a well-known Brighton portrait photographer, one of the very first to take up the production of cinema films in eighteen ninety-six. So Smith, as I said earlier on, was not alone in this. He erm was himself erm one of a school of Brighton filmmakers. And then there was John Bennett Stanford, who was a wealthy amateur, who was one of the people who pioneered the filming of the Boer War. And his films were shown in London at the Alhambra, and were, this was something new and exciting and erm therefore helped to establish the popularity of the newsreel. Incidentally you might like to know where George Albert Smith worked in Brighton. He was erm in St. Anne's Well Gardens, erm that's where his address was, and eventually erm he was erm able to take over erm quite a considerable estate in Brighton, and develop it erm as a studio. Now erm some of this films might be of some interest. Among the trick films, for example, he made use of double exposure as early as eighteen ninety-eight in a group of films, these are titles, ‘Cinderella and the Fairy Godmother’, ‘The Mesmerist’, ‘The Corsican Brothers’, things like this, and he was one of the pioneers incidentally of the close-up. Usually it's D W Griffith of America who's given credit for the intelligent use of the close-up erm but Smith was immensely interested in the portraiture area of photography, and made a series of films which were called at the time ‘facials’. ‘Facials’ meaning erm films of people pulling faces, grimaces, caricatures, human caricatures really. And this was a most interesting branch of early filmmaking, it was the mobile portrait, the portrait where people's faces were in action. erm I see here one of his catalogue entries for eighteen ninety-eight, ‘Waves and Spray. Fine effect. Rough sea dashing against stone groin.’ This was the kind of thing which fetched people in, in the very early days. erm Well these, I think, I think this perhaps gives sufficient of the feeling of erm the kind of work these people did. But I would like to say just one word about what I felt about the character of George Albert Smith. I knew him over a period of about two years before he died. I actually invited him when I was Director of the British Film Academy to come to London erm and with the help erm of Brian Coe of Kodak we actually reconstructed about thirty seconds of this two-colour process erm and put it on a screen for our filmmaker colleagues in London. And this was a tremendously moving moment, I think. There he was, this very old man, talking about his process with tremendous enthusiasm, and then we said, ‘Well all right, now we'll all sit down, we'll have a look at exactly what this two-colour process looked like. We've only managed to reconstruct about thirty seconds of it, but this at any rate will give the impression of the way it was.’ Well in a sense we were able to give this very quiet manner and very enthusiastic, very explicit, very kindly, very polite erm man his chance to relive for a moment erm this great contribution that he made in the past. He was able to come back, and this was in the late nineteen fifties, half a century later, and tell us all about it. well known as centres of academic learning and excellence, where people are taught to degree-level standard. They've always had links with industry and commerce, but over the last few years they've recognised the need to develop and publicise their links. The University of Sussex is no exception. Over the past decade it's built up an international reputation for the quality of its scientific and technological research. In fact it's one of the very top U. K. research universities. It's high standing is shown by its being in the top three universities, along with Oxford and Cambridge, in the national table which shows the proportion of income derived from research grants. For example, last year alone, the University earned a total of four point nine million pounds from research grants and contracts, a figure which has risen despite the recession. About a third of the four point nine million pounds came from contracts placed by industrial firms, government departments and other agencies, for work to solve specific problems. Much of this work has been done for the larger national and international companies. However the University also runs an extensive Services for Industry programme, designed to help smaller local firms in Sussex. And in the last four years about one hundred local firms have been given help. I've been joined today by Professor Mike Springford, Professor of Experimental Physics at the University, and Chairman of the Services for Industry Coordinating Group, and John Golds, the University's Industrial Liaison Officer. They've come along to talk about the Services for Industry programme, and what the University can offer local firms. So Mike, what's the background to the Services for Industry programme? Well you could say that erm our background goes back erm twenty-five years, in fact, we've had a considerable involvement with industry both local and national for as long as the University has been in existence, which is now nearly twenty-five years. Now in this respect, of course, twenty-five years is rather a short time in the life of a university, and a good deal of this time has been spent in building up a research base, and now, as you mentioned in your erm remarks a few moments ago, Andrew, we have an enviable research record in a very wide range of disciplines. Now about four or five years ago, we felt that the time was right to promote our involvement with industry and commerce rather more vigorously. I think erm there were essentially three reasons for this. The first was to give some form, and to formalise, our collaboration, and our involvement with existing industrial colleagues. The second was a conviction that many of us had, that we do indeed have a great deal to offer, by way of expertise and consulting, from the campus. And thirdly, and certainly not erm least, we hoped ourselves to benefit at a time when the Government cutbacks were just come into force, which were requiring us to raise erm more income from non-government source. And what sort of facilities can the University offer? Well I suppose most of those, but certainly not all, are on the Science side of the University. Let me just mention erm just a few. We organise ourselves in different schools of studies. If I mention them and then perhaps give you a few examples of the sort of facilities which erm which we have available. In Engineering and Applied Science, there's a very wide experience in the broad area of electronics and computers and micro-processors, computer-aided design, and such topics as biomedical engineering and instrumentation. In my own school, which is Mathematical and Physical Sciences, there is a considerable expertise in erm materials, in the study of surfaces using electron microscopy, in subjects like opto-electronics, in the use of radio isotopes and mathematical modelling say. In Chemistry and Molecular Sciences, one finds a whole range of analytical tools, experience with erm polymers, and again the chemistry of surfaces and interfaces. And in Biological Sciences, erm one finds erm subjects like drug testing, plant physiology and biochemistry, and subjects like speech analysis and synthesis. In addition to this, of course, on the campus there are other erm units. We have erm a special research unit, which we call Micro-processors, Instrumentation and Control. In addition to this, of course, there's a good deal of energy research goes on in the campus, and erm there's another unit which we call the Science Policy Research Unit. And so, John, how have these University facilities benefited local firms? Well as Mike said, since the inception of the Service for Industry programme in nineteen eighty, the University of Sussex has helped nearly a hundred local companies. Some jobs are problem solving, or analysis, some are much more involved. You see a university has a wide spread of expertise and facilities, which is well beyond the finance of a small company, and even sometimes a larger company, especially when the expertise or facility required is out of the ordinary. We are, by this programme, doing our best to serve Britain's future by working with industry? And can you give me some examples of the firms that the University's managed to help? Yes. The University does work for a variety of large companies, such as Rolls Royce, I C I, Shell, B P. These are international companies or, put another way, household names. However, I cannot divulge the names of local companies, because in the majority of cases, the results of the work are confidential. What I can give are examples of the expertise and facilities provided. For example, analysis, using the N M R machine. Gas chromatography. Tailor-made short course for individual companies, to bring their staff up to date with modern computer techniques. Designs of locks. Design of a new magnet detection system. Medical research. Mathematical progress of schools of our education area. These are just some of the facilities and expertise that have been made available to industry. As another example, and totally unrelated to science, a couple of years ago we undertook a project to look into the organisation of a charitable trust. And so you've been able to help a number of firms. How have the firms found out about what the University offers? How's the programme been publicised? Well we do this in a number of ways. We collect together most of the information erm in a single brochure which we call ‘Services for Industry’. And indeed we've just erm put together a new edition of this erm document erm it collects together the range of advisory and consultancy services on the campus, together with a list of the sort of test equipment and facilities around, and it also notes other things, such as M S E courses and short courses which can be put on. And then from time to time, erm in fact a few times during the year, we circulate a newsletter to something like a thousand erm companies on our list. Yes, I think in addition to that we, the University participates in exhibitions. For example, last February at Birmingham, at an exhibition called Barclays Techmark, the University participated. It is also going to Eastbourne, to an exhibition organised by the Confederation of British Industries, and to another in Brighton, on Technology Transfer. We all have close ties with the Southeast Region of the C B I. In fact they held one of their regular meetings here last September. We also work very closely with the Federation of Sussex Industries, and they will be having one of their monthly meetings at the University in November, and we also hope to organise a joint open day with the F S I next June or July. The University is a member of the Brighton-Hove Chamber of Commerce, and it is also on the Management Board of the local Business Enterprise Agency. This agency, supported by the towns of Brighton and Hove, is sponsored by the local business, with the aim of advising people willing to form their own business and thereby create jobs. Also earlier this year the University formed a Managing Directors Club. Well that sounds quite interesting. Can you tell me a little bit more about that? The club has about sixty members from industry and commerce, with East and West Sussex, and the boundaries of the surrounding counties. It is organised by the University of Sussex. Aims are to provide an opportunity for industry and the University to meet, and assess each other 's needs, and for industry to find out what we are doing. It is also a vehicle for industrialists to meet each other, and discuss common problems. The club meets three or four times a year. So far the meetings have been held at the University, but the plan is to move the club's meetings around the counties of East and West Sussex. Membership is open to managing directors and chief executives of industry and commerce. Okay, so what you've told me so far's fine. But I'm sure there are people listening who are thinking, ‘Well, how much is all this going to cost if I want some advice?’ Can you give us some idea of that? Well obviously this very much depends on the expertise and service required. If it's just advice, that service is normally provided free. Analysis of a single sample, using say, one of the smaller machines, will cost as little as twenty-five pounds. An investigation, or a design of a new system, are obviously much more expensive, even a few thousand pounds. There are, however, government-sponsored schemes whereby the research councils support research in conjunction with industry through co-optive studentships or co-optive grants. These are not expensive. For example a studentship to undertake research leading to a higher degree can cost as little as five hundred pound per year for the three years. Well we've been talking about the benefits which the local firms obviously gain from the work that's going on here, but the question could be asked, what benefit do the academics in the University and also the students gain from the, the programme? Well first of all I think there are a number of intangible benefits which accrue from us making new contacts outside the University, and tackling and discussing new problems in different areas. But certainly, on the more tangible side, it's true to say that an increasing proportion of the research in the University in widely different areas erm is supported now erm through this programme. I can give you a couple examples of the more tangible advantages with reference to schemes which are administered by the erm Science and Engineering Research Council. erm One of them is called the Teaching Company Scheme, in which partners from universities and manufacturing companies get together to tackle problems with the objective of increasing manufacturing performance in some area. erm Another example is the CASE Scheme. This stands for Cooperative Awards in Science and Engineering and erm under this scheme, a company erm can have a problem tackled by a research student working in a university and erm a supervisor, and indeed in this case, the input, the financial input, by the company may be quite small, may only amount to a few hundred pounds. One of the other advantages of this scheme is that the student erm spends some months each year in the company, and in a number of cases in the past this has led to the student erm getting a job when he leaves. And finally on the undergraduate side, a number of our erm contacts have led to the undergraduates being able to erm find vacation work. And finally there have been some items in some of the national newspapers recently concerning university science parks. I understand that Sussex University doesn't have a science park, but in fact it's got a research park. Can you tell me what the difference is, please, John? Many science parks have been developed through the combined initiative of a university, local authority, or development agency, and a finance house. The buildings is built speculatively. In other words, tenants are then sought. Our approach at Sussex is different. Departments have forged close links with a number of companies in the area of research and development. Because of the benefits, the close collaboration, excellent facilities, some companies wish to cement even closer, more permanent links. This can be achieved by siting their R and D base, or part of it, on the campus. Companies do not, always, on the basis of existing collaboration, wish to move directly to a purpose-built building. At present four companies have part of their research and development base on campus, renting existing space. By using this facility they can further develop the links and use our services. One company,Asansiki , a subsidiary of Toyota, is building a fourteen hundred square foot building on the campus, and an international high technology company is about to build a ten thousand square foot building. The agreement for this should be reached on the second of November. These two companies will form the nucleus of the University of Sussex Research Park. From this you can see that there is a major difference between our approach and the conventional science park, in that we are not undertaking speculative development, but are using what is termed internally within the University as ‘the incremental approach’. Okay then. Suppose I'm an industrialist listening to this programme, and I've been very interested in what you've been saying, and I feel that I've got a problem that the University could possibly give me some advice on. How do I go about it? Well that's quite simple, Andrew, as an answer. All they need do is to contact me, John Golds, either by phone or by letter. I will then do my best to see whether we can solve their problem. My telephone number is Brighton six oh six seven double five. Well thank you very much to both Mike Springford and John Golds. Hello. This is the start of a short series on science, in which we're going to explore some of the boundaries of our physical universe as we understand it. Space, time, temperature and so on. Now that winter's coming on, what would be more appropriate than a programme about low temperatures? And by low temperatures I don't just mean a few degrees below freezing, but the world close to what scientists call ‘absolute zero’. And to help us in these explorations we have as a guide Dr. Low Thomson. Low, when we talk about low temperatures, what do we actually mean? I think depends upon the, the problem. A room temperature might be a low temperature for certain erm physical phenomena, but by and large I think in physics low temperatures tends to mean temperatures below the erm boiling point of liquid helium, I think. And how cold is that? Well, on the centigrade scale that's at minus two six nine approximately, but in fact we in physics tend to work always with an, what we call an absolute scale of temperature. Room temperature is around about three hundred kelvins, but why we call it absolute is it, erm the lowest temperature one could ever get to is in fact designated as zero. So that's interesting in itself. What you're saying is that there is actually a limit to how cold you can get. In the way that erm that the temperature scale has been defined yes, that's correct. There in fact originally were different ways suggested. Logarithmic ways would have meant there would be, there would have been no limit in fact, one could have always gone to, to, one would essentially have minus infinity as, as the lowest. But erm on the absolute scale of temperature, zero kelvin is the lowest one can get, and all one can hope to do is to get ever closer to that zero, when one goes to low temperatures. I think we're probably going to come back to that again in a minute. But let's talk for a moment about how one actually tries to get low temperatures. How do you do that? erm As far as we're concerned, we do much the same I suppose as, as the housewife does in her kitchen. She buys a refrigerator, plugs it in, and puts her food in there, and gets to some, maybe minus ten, or minus fifteen erm centigrade that way. We essentially buy some rather larger refrigerators which will liquify some gases for us. We have two in the University, one that liquifies nitrogen from the air, and another which liquifies erm helium gas which we buy in from erm Texas in fact it comes. And the air when it's liquified gives us a starting base temperature of seventy-seven kelvins, whereas the helium when it's liquified gives us a base temperature of four point two kelvins. Basically it's very easy, isn't it, to get down to about seventy-seven degrees above absolute zero? Liquid air, liquid nitrogen is, is about that temperature and, and it's That's right, it's easier to get hold of. It's fairly easy to get hold of, it doesn't cost too much to liquify. The, the, the, the cost of liquifying air is around about ten p a litre. So that one, fairly readily, can get down to about minus a couple of hundred degrees below room temperature Yes. Something of that order. Very easily, yes. And, and, and liquid nitrogen you'll find in, in all walks of life, in hospitals all over the place that erm farmers now often have it in their farm, they, they That's the sort of thing you use to burn warts off fingers and That sort of thing, that's right. What happens when you try and get below that? It gets progressively harder to get down in temperature, does it? You have to erm spend progressively more because it, it, it, it just is as you say much much harder to get down. You have to have bigger compressors, higher pressures, and, and better insulation. erm Helium does liquify at a much lower temperature than any other element and in fact it was not until erm this century that erm helium was finally liquified. All the other elements had been erm liquified in, in, during the Victorian period. How on earth would that have happened in the first instance? Did people expect it to be liquified and work on it until it happened, or was it just an accidental discovery? No, there was a, a programme right throughout the erm second half of the nineteenth century to try to liquify all elements. There was speculation in fact that helium might not liquify at all. People had so much difficulty with it. What's interesting, Brian, by the way, is that, that helium is, it is the sort of the life and blood of low temperature physicists. Most peculiar element. It was discovered not on earth in fact but on the sun in the first place, in about eighteen sixty-eight erm absorption lines were seen, and, and it was a long time after that before people realised there was some helium on the earth and, and, and eventually erm helium, some gas was found bubbling up through, from a pit in the Black Forest and, and analysed and found to be helium. I see. And then, erm it was at a much later stage, in the nineteen twenties or perhaps a little bit earlier than that they actually first managed to get enough of it to liquify. Nineteen oh eight. Nineteen oh eight. Is, is in some sense the starting point of low temperature physics, erm One doesn't want to mention too many names but one erm the sort of grandfather of, of the whole subject is a man called Cameling Onis who in the, erm in Holland in the Leiden erm University there, first liquified helium. He was an astonishing man because not only had, no sooner had he done that, than he then performed a tremendously important experiment. Only three years after that he put some erm mercury into a glass capillary and measured its resistance, and in nineteen eleven he discovered superconductivity. It's quite remarkable that a mere three years after liquifying helium he, he erm had got this tremendously important erm effect. This is one of the most important effects in low temperature physics, the fact that electrons, in many metals, go into a superconducting state in which they have no resistance whatsoever, no electrical resistance. All right. Well let's just take a step backwards. We're, we're getting rather complicated here. It's the electrons in metals which actually carry the electricity, is that right? That's right, yes. And what you're saying is that if you get to sufficiently low temperatures, you get a situation in which the resistance in the metal drops to zero. What's the implication of that? Well, the resistance of course is caused by the fact that electrons as they move around in, in, in metals, bounce off things and this erm causes their, their flow to be impeded. Now erm suddenly, it sets in at one particular temperature, this resistance just disappears entirely. First of all it's a, it's a most astonishing theoretical phenomenon that this should happen, and in fact it took a whole half of century later before an explanation could be found as to what, what was happening. Many applications that involve superconductivity, and around us today we see I think lots and lots of erm important applications. What comes to mind erm is that in the last erm fifteen years or so erm we've been able to make magnets using superconducting wire, and these magnets erm involve very very large magnetic fields, much larger than one could ever get using a, a copper-wound magnets which were the, way when you did things previously and erm there are an enormous number of applications. The most recent, and it's quite exciting, is to use magnetic resonance imaging to look at erm nuclei in the body and to see what they're doing and where they are, and that's going to be very exciting but it involves having a very very large magnet in which one puts a whole patient all at once. This is a medical diagnostic tool. That's right. That's right. It's, it's just coming in, erm not many hospitals have this at the moment but erm Britain is really quite to the fore in, in this work. This work started originally in, in erm Nottingham University and in Aberdeen University and erm now we're rather lucky in that I think we have erm one company, Oxford Instruments, that supply almost all the big magnets that are used in this work all over the world. Essentially you put the person in the centre of a huge magnetic coil, and that allows you to find out what's going on medically inside the person. That's right. All the nuclei in the body process at a, or rotate at a particular speed, according to whatever size magnetic field you put them in, and then you apply a radio frequency field to the body at the, at just that frequency, and if you tune things correctly, there is absorption of energy, and you can detect that. And that can detect erm tumours, body defects and so forth in a, in a non-destructive way if I could put it that way. Yes, it will It's less harmful than X-rays, for example. You get the same kind of picture you can get with X-rays, with what's reckoned to be no harm whatsoever. As well as that, essentially X-rays just tell you where things are, but erm in this erm magnetic resonance imaging, you find out not only where things are, but what they're doing. You can find that certain nuclei are moving fast, others are moving slowly. This will inevitably lead to enormous erm help in diagnostic aids for medicine. You mentioned erm tumours, in fact you get this as I said the same picture with, with X-rays as you get with magnetic resonance imaging, but what is different about tumours apparently is that the erm relaxation time with which the erm nuclei move erm varies erm according to whether a cell is, is cancerous or not. So that's one application of superconductivity. There are other low temperature phenomena which are rather fascinating. There's a thing called superfluidity, isn't there? Yes. Superconductivity essentially is just superfluidity of electrons in metals. Superfluidity is something which is seen so far in two liquids. One is liquid helium four, which is the standard most common isotope of helium, that's the stuff that was liquified in nineteen oh eight. That was discovered to be superfluid in about nineteen thirty-two. The way that superfluidity shows up is most extraordinary as well. For instance if one has a, a bucket of erm liquid helium, the helium will climb out of the bucket before your very eyes and empty. It can see a lower surface and it will literally climb out Yes. and down. It forms a film all over the surface and essentially erm climbs up through this film and, and will empty out of the bucket. So what really happens as you go towards low temperature? Well, things become simpler. Essentially if you're at a, at a high temperature, the real nature of the substance is being masked by a large amount of erm energy, excess energy, a large amount of excitations that cause randomness and cause extra things to happen. If you, if you can cool down you're essentially taking away all that erm extra energy, you're making things less random, in fact one way to look at low temperature physics is, is to think that we're always striving after the ideal, we're trying to make things more and more perfect. The first, simplest way is simply to take a boiling liquid and to pump on it. If you do that, you're pumping away the erm highest energy atoms and leaving behind the lowest energy ones, and in that sense it's becoming more perfect. We've talked a lot about four degrees above absolute zero. What happens if you actually try and get down to absolute zero or even pass the other side? No, you can never pass the other side. I mean absolute zero is, is just some absolute that we, we strive to get to, but you can certainly get closer and closer, and in the last erm ten or twenty years one has seen erm enormous strides in, in getting there. I think erm when I started doing low temperature physics about twenty-five years ago or so, the lowest temperature that had been reached was around about erm two milli-kelvins from absolute zero. That's about two thousandth Two thousandth erm degrees. Yes. Two thousandth of a, of a degree Yes. Yes. In fact erm at Lancaster University quite recently a temperature of around about nine micro-kelvins was reached from absolute zero, so that's a, an advance of almost three orders of That's about erm one over a hundred thousandth of Yes. a degree. That's right. So that's getting very close indeed. But it's, it's like trying to climb a mountain, isn't it, in a sense, you, it's getting steeper and steeper as you get to the peak, so it gets harder and harder to get that last little bit. That's right. It's by, by ever successively smaller, smaller steps we'll eventually head ever towards absolute zero without ever getting there, that's true. And at Sussex, there are quite a number of people doing these sorts of experiments, what, about six or eight different people doing experiments in low temperature physics? Yes. We have about, I would say in all about erm twenty chriostats at, at least, and, and A chriostat is, is what low temperature physicists call the little bit of experimental apparatus in which they get their low temperatures. That's correct. That's right. And, and we have erm maybe twenty or so of these, some of which go not much below four degrees, but some of which in fact really go to quite low temperatures. We, we're one of the main centres in the country for that, and some of these erm big apparatuses go to erm well below one milli-kelvin. And it's really good to know that there are so many applications in the, in the real world, medical and physical and, and otherwise. It's not just a little bit of science for the sake of science although it has a strong content there. Low, the last question I want to ask you is really a rather naive one. These temperatures are incredibly cold erm and very low. You can get frost-bite only about ten degrees below freezing point. erm Do you have to wear gloves and protective equipment to do these experiments? No, no, no, not at all. erm The low temperatures we're talking about, Brian, are, are right inside erm very big apparatuses, so that as far as we're concerned the room is just at a normal temperature and the low temperature is within a can within a can within a can within a can away from us. It's really erm insulated by about ten different layers from erm of various kinds of insulation from, from, from the room, so that erm we never actually experience the low temperatures ourselves, I must confess. Probably just as well. Thank you very much, Low, and that's all that we have time for today. Hello. This is the first in our new series of Ideas in Action from the University of Sussex. I'm Andrew Panting, the Information Officer for the University, and for this first programme I've been joined by Ted Nakhle and Lawrence Suss. Ted is the Senior Assistant Registrar in Student Administration, and Lawrence is the Admissions Officer for the University. They've had a very busy summer in the Admissions Office, but now the new academic year is underway, I've invited them into the studio to ask them about this year's admissions. Right then, Lawrence, what's the current state of play at the moment? Well, the University's just admitted all its students this year, and we've had what I think is a particularly good year. First of all applications to the University rose by about thirteen per cent, which was very much better than what happened to all other universities. So we've done rather well there. erm Secondly the result was that our intake this year has been particularly good. I think you may know that sometimes universities need to go into something called clearing, which is a last-minute applications process in erm in late August and September, to fill the last few vacancies. And in the past few years we've had to go into clearing as most other universities would do. Well this year, we closed all our courses except one. So we did extremely well. And the second point I think about this year's intake is that, in terms of A-level grades, it's particularly good. We've got some extremely competent and bright students, and I'd like to think that they'll do quite well. So it's been very good this year. Ted. What advice can you give to anybody thinking about applying to university in nineteen eighty-five? Well I think that it must be recognised that the current state of demand and supply is going to make it very difficult for most applicants, and we would be concerned to advise them not to panic unduly as a result of that, and to make their choices on the sort of rational criteria that would apply in any year. One of the important lessons I think to learn is that the choice of course, which tends sometimes in situations of high demand to be too related to supposed vocational use, so we notice for example that there is increasing demand for courses which appear to have a vocational content, can sometimes lead to disadvantage. If I could cite one example of that, the accountancy profession recruits seventy per cent of its intake from non-accountancy graduates, and in fact, a student taking accountancy, and getting a not particularly good degree, even a lower second class honours degree, can sometimes be regarded by employers as having demonstrated not particularly good aptitude for accountancy, and be discounted in favour of a candidate from another major subject, who's got a better class of degree. The lesson, I think, there is to pick a course that will create the sort of environment in which performance can be maximised, rather than to pick something which appeared to have more vocational use, but may not be as good for the individual student as a course that he or she will enjoy. What about deciding which university to go to, because there are a lot of universities offering a lot of different courses? I think there, again, the message would be the same. Think about it seriously. Don't pay too much attention to media pressure. Think about the total environment. The students who perform well at university are those who are well-motivated rather than those who are able, since most students entering university are able. Use the vacations to visit as many campuses as you can. Living in this area, for example, you can visit a campus university here at Sussex, a town-type institution at Brighton Polytechnic or Portsmouth Polytechnic, a city-based university in Southampton, and it's very easy to get to London. That will give you a fair idea of the sort of environment in which institutions are placed, and the sort of environment in which you might be happy, and again, go for the environment in which you think you will be happiest. Could I just reinforce something that Ted said about erm vocational course as well? I think candidates who are thinking of applying for entry in nineteen eighty-five, who are now say seventeen coming on eighteen, have got three or four years ahead of them at university, which is a considerable time, and if nothing else, university will make them question themselves, what their interests are, and they'll introduce them to new subjects, new areas of study, and it may be a mistake to embark on a vocational course, and discover halfway through that actually it's not what you want to do. I would emphasise what Ted said. That is, motivation is the most important thing. That if you go on a course for which you're well-motivated, then you'll do well. I know some people take a year off before they enter university. Could that be a good idea, say for, to try out a vocational area? Yes. Provided the erm the candidate or the student knows what they're going to do in that year. I don't think it's any good sitting around, on the dole, doing nothing. So it's, it's very important to have something to do. Most universities welcome it, because it gives the student a chance to look at themselves afresh during that year off, to increase their experience, maybe for a chance to stand on their own two feet and travel or work somewhere else. So that when they get to university, it's not the first time away from home, it's not the first time they've got their money and so on. One of the, the tasks I have to do in May each year, is I write to the candidates who've just taken a year off, who've been away for the last two-thirds of a year, and I write to them and say, ‘You've been away for two-thirds of a year. Are you going to come in October?’ I get three sorts of responses. The first are those people who say, ‘Thanks for writing to me. There's no way I'm going to come to Sussex.’ And I'm delighted, frankly, that people write to me that early and say, ‘I'm not going to come’, because I can give their places to somebody else. There's a second group of students who write to me after that letter in May, and say, ‘I no longer want to do English at university. I'm much more interested in psychology.’ Because they spent their year off teaching children in a nursery school, or working in a home for mentally handicapped people, and they discovered a new area of interest to which they can relate, and they become motivated to read that subject. And of course the third group of students write and say, ‘Yes, I applied last year to do Biology, I want to do it, and I'm really clear I want to do it.’ And they too have examined their motives. There are lessons in that for people thinking about applying this year, and who may not intend to take a year off. And the main lesson is that there are no short cuts to choosing a university course or choosing a university. It has to be a serious process of thought and research, both about the candidate's own interests and motivation, and about the type of course and institution which they want to attend. One of the dangers of the current climate for admission, which makes it more difficult than it has been in recent years for students to get into universities, is that the concentration is on the techniques of application, rather than on what lies behind the mechanical process. And I would urge all intending applicants to give very serious thought to what sort of person they are, to what their real academics interests are, and to what sort of institution they want to attend, and to recognise at the outset that that cannot be gleaned from any one compendium or any one adviser. And that it's up to them to do the research, to listen to advisers, parents, other students and so on, but at the end of the day it's them that's got to go and do the course. All they can get from other people is advice, and not instruction. You mentioned the technique of applying. I understand that there is quite a, a complicated form called an, an UCCA form. I'm not terribly sure what UCCA stands for, but it's the form that pupils use to apply for university. Are there bits of technical advice that you can give to people intending to apply to university? Yes. UCCA is the Universities Central Council on Admissions, and applications to universities go through the UCCA. It's a central system. It's like a clearinghouse for all, all applications to all universities in, in the United Kingdom. The form is a long form. It can be quite off-putting. Little bits of advice I would give erm are these. Firstly, when UCCA get the form they photoreduce it for the universities. So it actually comes to us quite a bit smaller than when it's filled in by them. So it's important that their writing is clear, is large enough for us to read, otherwise we're going to have a really quite difficult job. A second point I would make is, check spelling. I've got a whole list of funny errors, some a bit too near the bone to repeat on the air, but they're extremely funny, and it's certainly not a good way of getting your application noticed by misspelling. So get the writing clear, the spelling clear. I think the third general point I'd want to make is this: if you're applying for a course at university, then it doesn't matter what A-levels you're taking, or what courses you've put down for at the five universities. I think candidates somehow have got to assume that the admissions tutors or selectors don't think the candidate wants to do the course. That's the starting point. That is you've got to prove to the admissions tutor or admissions selector that you want to do the course. For instance, because you take A-level English, and you apply to five English courses, I don't think you should assume that the admissions tutor thinks you want to do English. And there's a section on the form which asks candidates to fill in their interests and it's in that section that a candidate puts over their own personality, and so I would ask people who are applying to think very carefully before filling that section in, and to be both broad in what they say, that is to include all their interests, but also to be very specific as well. I think in, in shorthand terms the best thing to do is to regard the UCCA form as a mirror, and to look at it when it's completed and say, ‘This is the picture of me.’ If it looks scruffy, then it implies that you are scruffy, if it looks badly thought out, unclear, then it implies that you are badly thought out and unclear. And to recognise that the bureaucracy of the system is inevitably large and complicated. There will be, next year, something in the region of a hundred and seventy thousand applicants nationally through UCCA. They can all submit up to five choices, which means that there will be something like eight hundred thousand application forms floating through the system. If you make a mistake, it's just not possible to go back and retrieve it, and for a selector to say, ‘Well, I don't think this person's made a very good case, I'm sure if we gave them another chance they would make a better one.’ It doesn't happen like that. The form is all you have in the initial stages, and if you don't erm fill it out sensibly then you don't get as far as the interview, when of course your individual personality can start to come through. All right, so you've decided which university you want to go to and which course you want to do. And you've filled in your UCCA form making sure that you've put yourself across properly. What happens next? Well what happens next is this. There's a reference required from a headmaster or headmistress or principal of the college. And so it's passed on to the person in the school or college responsible for that. And of course at this time of the year I would guess the people responsible for writing references get hundreds of requests, not just for universities but for polytechnics and other colleges of, of higher education. And that may take a week or two weeks in the school or college to get that done. And it's up to the school or college then to pass on their application form directly to the UCCA. UCCA then have to process it, they create a computer record, they photocopy it, and pass those papers then on to the universities. And I would guess it takes something like two or three weeks, after UCCA get the papers, that we actually receive them. Which is quite a long time. So so far we've got maybe a week or two filling in a reference, two or three weeks in UCCA, and a week in the university, which is almost I guess almost two months. So it can take quite a long time to process applications to that point. Well I'm sure that information's going to be very useful to pupils applying to university for next year. Thank you very much, Ted and Lawrence. During some of the earlier programmes in this series, the question of how far parents could or should be involved in their children's education was raised. We talked about ways in which parents could encourage their children to read, and also the extent to which Dad or Mum should help with homework. Today I have with me Mrs. Julia Knight and Dr. Michael Eraut, who, together with Tony Becher, have recently completed a study that looked at parental involvement in primary schools. Julia, should parents be involved in schools? I suppose the answer to that depends on whether you're a teacher or a parent. Most teachers say that they like the parents of the children they teach to be involved in their children's education, in fact I think nearly all teachers would say that. But of course what they mean by involvement varies from one teacher to another, erm and there are certain limits which most teachers feel that they should put on parental involvement. For example, when you're thinking of young children learning to read, teachers like parents to read to their children at home and look at books with them at home. erm They don't like them to buy copies of the school reading scheme and keep it at home and go through it book by book, that they feel is encroaching on their professionalism. Do you think, in fact, Michael, that, that parents actually can do harm to their children by insisting on being involved in their teaching at too early a stage, for example by forcing their children to read? Well, it's always erm possible to, to do harm, but it's also possible to do a lot of good by the interest that's shown in, in children's work. erm One just needs to be sensitive to, to the issue. I mean if obviously the child is reacting in some way or feels that they can't even relax when they're at home, erm then someone's overstepped the mark. But if it's a question of a child feeling that a parent thinks that it's important, and feeling that parents are interested in what they're doing, then that I would have thought was beneficial. Julia, you studied about twenty-one different schools, all in East Sussex, were they? That's right. And did you find that parents were involved in most of these schools? Did most of them have P T As, for example? All the schools involved in our study were very welcoming to parents. They had actually chosen themselves to come in on the study and so they were obviously schools which were particularly interested in involving parents as much as they could, and erm they would all certainly have done as, probably as much as most schools in the country are doing as, as far as involving parents are concerned, both in having parent helpers in the classrooms, and in having organisations for parents and social events for parents of the, of the fundraising type. From the parents' point of view, to go back to your original question about whether it's good for children to be helped at home, of course it's, it doesn't make any sense to stop helping your child just because he's reached the age of five. It's a normal thing to do, to teach your children everything from the time they're born, so to put some kind of arbitrary division on where you stop helping is nonsense to the child and it's, it's absurd to parents, too, and of course it doesn't happen. With the parents we interviewed erm not only did all of them see their own role as being helpers and supporters of their children as being a very important one, but a very very large number of them were doing extra teaching at home or getting even paid tutors in to help with their children. Do you have any sense in talking to schools, for example, that parents were a nuisance, Michael? erm I think there were times and occasions where some teachers felt that some parents could, could be a nuisance. erm I suppose that would mean if they felt they were taking up so much of their time that they couldn't do what they considered to be their job properly, and if they felt that I think the parents were persisting and insisting that their own children got more attention than the school could really afford to give them if they were going to be fair to everyone. But this was a term that I think was only applied to very few parents, on the whole, it really, it was not a sort of ‘Parents are a nuisance’ is not a general belief of, of teachers at all, not today. I know a local primary school that doesn't have a P T A at the moment, and my feeling is that in fact the head teacher in particular is terrified of the, the pressures that would be put on her if in fact the P T A was formed. erm Do you have any similar experience? Not through our study, certainly. I don't think the existence or non-existence of a P T A makes that much difference to the pressure that's put on. If you have a group of parents who want something particular from a school and are going to organise themselves into a group to pressurise that school, they'll do it whether there's a P T A there or not. But erm perhaps that's a good point to erm mention that most of the parents we interviewed didn't see themselves as erm people operating in a group. They saw their relationships with the school very much in terms of an individual one, and it was their own child that was the important thing. That is important, isn't it? The, the difference between parents as a group or individuals. Very much so. erm I think we found that a school has, it's very important for a school to get the relationship right with individual parents in talking about their children, and how their own children are progressing, and that's quite a different kind of relationship from the one between schools and a body of parents about general school policy. And I think both of them need to be erm thought about and looked at, but they're certainly not the same thing. There's been quite a lot of discussion recently about how many parent governors or parent managers there ought to be in a, in the school system. And I think on the whole the movement is towards building in parents, more parents formally in this particular level. Do you approve of this? I don't think it will make very much difference to the way things actually happen in practice. I think, my own personal feeling about governing bodies is that erm they're rather ineffective because there isn't really a role for them to play. They may have occasions when they can be called into use for some particular issue, but on the whole there's no real mechanism for contact between governors and parents. erm Governors have no true power of any sort really. erm There's always an ambivalence in the relationship between governors and schools in that, in order to have a good relationship with a head, you need to be on friendly terms with him so that the head, or her, so that the head will communicate with the governors. If you're on too friendly terms with him, you may be in danger of not doing your job properly as a governor, because it can be quite difficult to stand back from somebody in an objective way when you know them too well or are too closely involved with them. And certainly the school governors who we interviewed for that, the project, on the whole felt that erm it was a slightly empty role. I know that your study was largely concerned, in fact totally concerned with primary schools, but do you feel that there is a difference between the parental role in a primary school and secondary school? Yes. erm I think first you have to relate to so many teachers erm as a parent of a secondary school child, and this is obviously a much more complicated procedure and also I think parents, many parents feel that they know a little bit less about what their children are doing at school at the secondary stage, it's all that little bit more advanced, that little bit more different perhaps from what they had in their own education. So I, I think it's difficult to sustain the same kind of relationship. And I'm not sure that the children necessarily want their parents quite so involved in their school life by the time they, they get to that age, they're, rather value their independence in, in many ways. I don't entirely agree with Michael over the business of not being quite so familiar with the work when the children are at secondary school. I think erm that sometimes the fact that children have moved to a school where they have a timetable which has got subjects written down on a piece of paper, and the fact that they bring homework back with them and parents can see work in exercise books, sometimes that acts as a kind of reassurance to parents that something is going on which they recognise as education. The problem with many of the parents we interviewed of primary school children was that they didn't really know what their children were doing at school a lot of the time and, because they didn't know what they were doing, they sort of feared that it, they weren't doing anything or that what they were doing was not actual work, what they remembered as work. erm Many primary school children have no timetable and they don't bring homework home, and when the parents ask them what they did all day at school they say ‘Nothing’, and some parents, that's all they've got to go on, and they, they get quite worried about it. Is part of the problem that the schools just don't communicate with the parents? erm Well the schools communicate, but they tend not to tell the parents the obvious things. I think this is the problem. In other words if you, you've been a teacher and you're working in a school, you tend to talk about the things about your school that different from other schools, not about the things about your school that are the same, and that go on in all the other schools as well. And yet, from a, any visitor from a, another country or another planet would notice much more the things were the same, than the things were different. So parents tend not to hear about the things that really go on a lot of the time in nearly all schools and they do hear a bit about the things that are a little bit different, so they can get quite a distorted picture of, of what's going on. In fact there was a, I think some of the recent erm concerns about schools have come from an image that's been built up over a period of time that the schools spend very little time on the, on the three Rs for example. And we found that many parents were inclined to believe these kinds of reports, and yet this just wasn't true if one saw what was going on in the schools. The problems were, was that the schools, since they were doing this, they assumed that all schools did this, therefore they didn't need to talk about it, they didn't need to tell them about it. And the communication that does exist between schools and parents, in most schools there's, there is plenty of communication but it's hardly ever about the curriculum. It's almost always about the sort of fringe things that happen in schools, the not strictly educational erm organisational matters about when to bring bits of equipment and which day the term's going to finish, but very few schools put much into writing about how they teach maths, or what the children are going to be doing that term as a topic. And do you think this would be an advantage, if they did so? Yes, I do. erm I think it could be quite time-consuming for the teachers, at least initially, until they'd got used to some reasonably easy form for doing it. But I think that erm once they'd got started on it they would find it very beneficial in terms of erm improving their kind of over-all general image. Well you've made this study and you've written a book, Policies for Educational Accountability I think it's called, which is just recently come out, and I'm sure that will be a, a very worthwhile contribution, but let me just ask you a personal questions. You're both parents. How do you get on with your schools, the schools to which your children go? Really I suppose much the same way as those parents whom we interviewed who had some sort of educational knowledge or understanding of their own, since we're both involved in education. It's not nearly so difficult for people who, who do know a bit about teaching, to understand what's going on. I'm a teacher myself and if my children come home and tell me things they've been doing in maths which might seem very perplexing to somebody who knows about modern maths, I understand the educational reason for them doing so. If I didn't have that advantage, I might easily be extremely suspicious of what was going on and think that much of the sort of thing they're used to especially at primary school was not maths at all but was playing around with bits of string and round cylinders and erm certainly nothing like I remember doing. I think my relationship is a fairly normal one, but I do find myself bending over backwards not to erm use any of the sort of additional knowledge I have of education, and if there are things going on that perhaps I think that there might be better ways of doing it, then I bend over backwards not to give that kind of impression or to suggest it at all, because it seems to me that it's going to make the relationship with the school or with the teachers erm a rather awkward one, and I don't think it will good for my children. Is there anything that you think needs to be changed, something that you've picked up as a result of your study you, you feel ought to be changed in the school system? Well, not in the formal sense. In fact I think the people who are looking in the direction of change in terms of parent governors and P T As etcetera are, I think looking in the wrong direction. I mean the feeling that I got from our research was that there are certain things that are absolutely basic to a good relationship between the school and the parent. First is that the parent should have a reasonably good idea of what's going on. I mean they like to know what's happening to their children all day. And the second is that there's the, that the parents should have some kind of feel for how the child is progressing, and how the child is getting on. Now all schools try and communicate with parents about these things, but parents don't always perceive what the schools are doing erm in, in the way that the schools would like. And I think there is scope for misunderstanding there, and I think that if those two basic things, if we could learn to do those better, and I say ‘we’ because I don't think anyone has all the answers to these problems, that, that school-parent relationships would, would improve a lot more that way, by doing these basic things better, and being sensitive to the difficulties of, of communication, rather than by trying to do all kinds of new policy things and erect new formal committees of this and that kind. Do you have any advice to offer parents as a whole or as individuals, Julia? Only to take every opportunity to go to the school and get to know it as well as you can, I think, erm and don't be afraid to ask questions. I think that's quite important. erm It's sometimes a little bit daunting to go to a school, particularly if you happen perhaps to have hated school yourself and not to have been near a school for a long time, got away from it as soon as you could when you were younger. erm It can be daunting to go back and erm meet teachers again and talk to them as, as adults rather than in the way that you used to when you were a child and erm the teacher was very much above you, but erm try your best to, to do that for the sake of the child because it is very very helpful for children if they feel that their teachers and parents are on pretty good terms. Well thank you very much, Julia and Michael. Hello. Continuing our short series on disasters, today we're going to talk about weathering and erosion in Sussex. What is happening to our famous chalk cliffs? Are we losing them as they're attacked by the sea? Will any of the famous cliff paths be left in a century or two? I recently put these and other questions to David Robinson, a physical geographer at the University. He had this to say about weathering. Depends what you mean by ‘weather’, but yes, the countryside of Sussex is constantly suffering the attack of rain and the rain either has to soak into the ground where very often it erm dissolves material and eventually finds its way to rivers so that all rivers are carrying material from inland in solution out to the sea, or if erm you get very heavy rain, then the water actually runs off the surface of the ground, and as it runs off it will carry particulate material out into the rivers and then out to sea. An average rate is probably somewhere in the order of ten to fifteen millimetres per hundred years, which probably doesn't seem very fast when you say it in terms of a hundred years, but when you think in terms of the length of time that landscapes have been involving, then erm you've got to multiply it by centuries and indeed millions of years, and erm you can see that quite erm dramatic changes can occur. Well taking our rivers, first of all, have the rivers of Sussex changed very much in recent years, and when I say recent years I mean over the last few centuries? We don't really know a lot about how much sediment load they've been carrying because we have been measuring the amount of material being carried by Sussex rivers for the last decade to two decades, so our level of information is very, very low. What we do know is that, particularly in the lower reaches of the rivers, they have suffered in the time that man has been around in Sussex, in say the last ten thousand years, very, very dramatic changes. We know, for example, that for much of that period, places such as the lower Ouse Valley and the lower Arran and Ada Valleys were in fact flooded arms of the sea and that the sediment brought down by the rivers of Sussex from inland, along with deposition by the sea in the quiet waters within those estuary-type areas, has gradually in-filled them. Going a little bit further east, Rye used to be a very important port, and erm that was, what, in the sixteenth century certainly and possibly even later than that. It now is very far inland. Was that caused by the same sort of sedimentation, the same sort of depositing of silt? The history of it has been the subject of a lot of work just recently, in fact, from an archaeological standpoint by Professor Cunliffe. But yes, erm it, it's partly sediment brought down from inland, it's also the fact that you have offshore of Rye the area of Winchelsea Beach and so-called Rye Harbour which is somewhat detached from the town of Rye, and there's been an enormous accumulation of shingle there, so that the Castle, which was built in, that's Camber Castle which was built in the reign of Henry the Eighth, since that time the shoreline at Winchelsea Beach, as a result of the accumulation of shingle, has moved in excess of one point five kilometres seaward of that point, and so obviously erm Rye is now much further inland than it was at that time. Thinking about our coastline, seeing that we're talking about it a bit, what about our white cliffs all along the coast? Are they going to be erm falling into the sea gradually over the coming years? Are they eroding rapidly? Well, yes, they're eroding rapidly. At the present day a large survey that was carried out by East Sussex County Council in the nineteen seventies, mostly looking at different maps of different ages and the position of the coast on different maps, showed that the average rate of erosion is between point three and point five metres per year. erm But certain headlands and certain soft parts of the cliff were going back at more than a metre a year. It, it is a serious problem, I mean the area at the moment between east of Saltdean, erm Telscombe Cliffs, erm through to the east end of Peacehaven, is in the process of being protected by a seawall and an undercliff walk, rather like the area from erm Black Rock in Brighton through to Saltdean, because the rate of retreat of the cliffs there was so great erm that it would very shortly be threatening the houses on the clifftop at Peacehaven, so that erm a lot of money's having to be spent to stop the erosion of the cliffs along that stretch. Is this protection effective? Well the protection from Black Rock at Eastwood has been quite effective. The cliffs themselves are banted back in order to make them safe from rock falls and so forth, but they, they do still suffer from weathering attack by rain, by frost, and the combination of salt from spray and frost is quite damaging, so that anybody who walks along the undercliff knows that in winter, for example , you tend to get a sludge of erm white erm finely divided wet chalk which sledges off erm cliff, particularly those people in recent years who've walked behind the marina, where it no longer gets washed off by the high tide erm where Brighton Corporation have to keep trying to remove it. The wall and the walk, yes, it's effective as long as it's maintained. What about the walks along the top of cliffs? Do they, these damage erm cliffs at all? Cliffs, use of cliff paths? No, compared to the weight of rock in the cliff, the, the extra weight of a person walking along the clifftop is, is minimal. erm What does tend to happen is that in very dry weather, such as we've had this summer, the chalk dries out and cracks open up. Most cliff falls occur in the wet autumn and winter weather during gales, when you get a lot of pounding by waves at the foot, and the cliff itself is very very heavy because of all the water which is contained within it. Moving inland a little bit, are there any significant problems which are caused by weathering or erosion? The major problem inland probably that affects general public is mass movement, that is to say where erm slopes en masse erm fail, that is to say sections of slope simply slip or move en bloc down erm the hillsides, and there are a, a number of occurrences where roads in particular have been cut or damaged erm in this way. One, for example, oh five, six years ago, perhaps more, time passes so quickly erm on the Lewes to Wych Cross road, closed the road at Dane Hill for a very long period of time, while the road was completely reconstructed. And there was another one which affected the road, again the same road but north of Wych Cross, at Bramble Tie , which is between Forest Row and East Grinstead. So erm this happens quite regularly. And it even happens where the clays which overlie the chalk, the tertiary clays which you can see for example in the top of the cliffs at Newhaven, and if you look back at the cliff from the western breakwater for example you can see clay sitting on top of chalk. Those clays in fact go right across the hillside there, and they cause a lot of problems because they slope inland, and over Ritchie Hill, coming out of Newhaven, the road there is nearly always during the winter months broken by cracks which open up, and has in fact been subject to considerable reconstruction this last summer. In fact there's a road at, near Wadhurst, at a place called Best Beach Hill, which slips so regularly that in fact the County Council decided it was hopeless trying to keep it open, and it was closed in oh about nineteen seventy. And it's quite interesting to, to go and look at that road now and see just what it's like. I mean the problem is roads don't mend themselves. If these things happen in fields you don't particularly notice them, because the vegetative cover is self-healing. It covers the breaks and tears very rapidly, and all you see is a slightly rumpled field. And if you go round, particularly the steep slopes on the margins of Ashdown Forest, not on Ashdown Forest itself but when you climb up from the very flat erm plain area of the Low Weald onto the so-called High Weald, then that area in particular is very subject to, to this type of activity. We talked earlier about the effect of erosion and weathering on the coastline, cliffs, protection and so forth. Historically there'd been attempts to cut down the effects of the sea by building breakwaters and so on. Have these effects been entirely beneficial or have they had side effects we don't fully appreciate? Well, if one looks at the Sussex coast at the present day, most of the Sussex coast is protected in some way from the action of the sea, either by a sea wall, or by a groined beach. The idea of groining a beach is that along the Sussex coast the beach material is moving from west to east, this is because the prevailing winds drive the gravel erm onto the beach from the southwest, and it moves in that direction all the time. The idea is that if you build groins then it gets trapped by the groin, it can no longer travel erm pass beyond it, and what you get is the gradual fill-up with beach material between groins. Now there's no doubt that groining on the beaches has been very successful in many cases. The groining tended to begin in places such as Brighton and Hove, where which were holiday areas, and who wanted to make sure they kept their beach, and wanted if possible to even enlarge their beach and certainly the urban area of the resort developed. They wanted to try to ensure that that area wasn't flooded by high tides and so forth. And erm the effect though of holding beach material on one part of the beach is of course that it starves the area which is along the Sussex Channel coast to the east of beach material that it would formerly have received. But that stretch of beach itself still tends to lose material further to the east, because the winds are still coming from the southwest predominantly, still driving the, the beach material along. And so what tends to happen is that at the end of a groined bit of beach the area immediately down-drift, that is to the east on the Sussex coast, starts to suffer from very serious erosion. erm The response has been for that authority then to groin its bit of beach, and so we end up with a situation today where along the Sussex coast practically the whole of the coast is groined, except for the areas which are backed by high cliffs, erm where we have the sorts of rates of erosion that I mentioned. I should mention, I suppose, that in the far east of the county erm the cliffs at Fairlight, which are sands and clays are also going back at sort of the same types of rate, that they're also receding very very rapidly. By different processes erm but nevertheless receding at the same rate. Now, where you get a big breakwater, erm the most spectacular example, historically, along the Sussex coast is the Newhaven breakwater, which, the present one was completed about eighteen ninety erm that's just a very large groin, and on the west side of Newhaven breakwater and under the smaller breakwaters along the Sussex coast, you've got the accumulation of gravel. erm So that at Newhaven at the present day you now have a fossil cliff, now largely buried because the tertiary sands and clays which sit on top of the chalk have slumped over, and so much of the original chalk cliff face is, is now buried, but you have this mass of slump material on what was formerly beach, and the gravel ridges stretch for what, one hundred, two hundred or more metres erm from the bottom of the cliff. And for something erm about half a kilometre to the west, so that you get this big wedge which is built up of, of gravel. And erm in contrast the beaches at erm Seaford have suffered very serious erosion as a result of the depletion of material which they formerly received and Seaford, which of course faces southwest anyway, has always suffered serious erosion. But it does seem, historically, as if erm the rates of erm erosion and damage and the incidence of flooding appears to have increased subsequent to the building of the Newhaven breakwater. I shall look at breakwaters and groins with renewed interest, David. Thank you very much. This is the last Ideas in Action programme before Easter. In recent weeks we've been taking a look at our Sussex heritage, and asking questions about conservation and preservation in our county. Today we turn from wholesale to retail, as it were, and from large scale projects to relatively small scale projects. Mrs. Peggy Webb has a story to tell us. You don't mind if I call you Peggy. Not at all, no, everybody does. Now you have told me that sixteen years ago you retired to Sussex for a quiet life. That's true. And before very long you found yourself involved with a project which looked as if it was actually going to take over your life. Tell us about this. Well I had no intention of having a project but I got very steamed up about conservation generally, particularly with my time with the Sussex Trust for Nature Conservation, where I learnt so much, and erm I felt I wanted to do something actively concerned with it myself. And erm one day when I was digging in a vegetable garden, I got a whiff of a smelly swamp in the fields, which once, I knew, had been an, a pond in the last century. And it occurred to me, I could make that a, a little nature reserve, very small, but erm rather like nature reserves that the Trust look after, and so erm I negotiated with the farmer You didn't actually own that belt of land. No, it was a farmer's, and erm he didn't want to sell it, but I pursued him for nearly a year, and in the end he said that I could erm buy it and erm that's when the project began. So you had a bit of swamp just off the bottom of your garden Yes. which you decided had some prospects of being reclaimed. I, I thought so, yes. Yes. Because it was no use to the farmer, there was no water to be seen there, and I thought I could do it with my own garden tools, and so once I'd removed all the rough brambles and so on and discovered the periphery of the old pond How big an area are we talking about? An acre, approximately. An acre , yes. Yes. I started to dig in one corner of it, and I dug for six months, winter months, erm and erm managed a shallow pool which erm wasn't what I had envisaged at all, but erm two snipe lived there and liked it. And then I decided very reluctantly to have an excavator and for three and a half days it worked down there and erm created a sort of Black Hole Calcutta and put all the stuff it had taken out, it spewed around so that it, there was just mud and no water. Well that must have been quite a mess. Oh, it was dreadful. Most depressing. Weren't you, you were really quite horrified when you saw what the excavator I was. had done. My idea of a nature reserve and what I was actually looking at were not the same thing at all. Did they dig just a big hole, essentially, or did they Well they left dig patches a huge island in the middle, and erm went all the way round, and anyway I, I made a path out of flints from, taken from all the mud, and worked my way round, and then started to plant things, and a hawthorn hedge, bushes and shrubs, and erm my son gave me a boat and I was able to go across to the island. But how did you get water in that, that area? It just came. Some from, a lot from the heavens, because it rained for a solid week after the excavator had left and erm from the springs, it's a natural water-gathering area. And once the springs were cleared again, and all the junk removed, I've, I didn't mention that it, it took about six months to get all the junk, prams and barbed wire and tins etcetera etcetera, removed, before you could actually start anything. So it used to be a pond last century or Yes. or earlier. A, a big pond and used for watering erm the cattle and erm then it silted up and erm got neglected and people naturally just threw things into it. There seems to be a natural habit of people to throw things into ponds Yes, I think so. Terrible habit. Yes. It, it's a thing that we have to live with, it seems. There's an infinite variety of erm wildlife down there now and always mallards and moorhens, and in the pond, roach and rud and Did you put the roach and rud there? Yes. Yes, we got those put in after a holiday near Rye. There was a pond by us, belonging to the people that we were with, and they let us bring some, and we popped them in, and erm on the far bank of the pond there are always lovely dragonflies, and on the other side there's some marsh orchids which, I didn't let the excavator erm scoop away that bank and each year there are marsh orchids. How much of the items there are natural, as it were, and how much did you import? You brought the fish in, the Yes. roach and the rud. I brought the fish in, and I, I brought various erm flowers in, such as irises and erm marsh marigolds, and a few waterlilies, and I planted a hawthorn hedge from two hundred and fifty quicks, as they call it. Oh, I, I think it's erm mostly nature, really. And the birds turned up of their own volition? Yes, there, there are woodpeckers down there. erm We had bats down there, but I haven't, but not the last two, two or three years, I don't know where they've gone. When did you get the pond more or less completed, as it is now? erm About five years after I started it, I think everything was, was growing up, and erm I haven't done the major things recently, I'm just doing gentle management. I used to do How much do you have to look after a pond, I mean Oh is it something that just looks after itself or No. do you actually have to do No things to it? A pond won't stay still at all. If you leave it for a while, the reeds invade, and there's no expanse of water at all. And so quite a big job has been cutting reeds back around the islands and the banks, and also we've had what they call blooms of blanketweed, not so much recently but, apparently it's more common with new ponds and I had a tremendous bloom of blanketweed the first year after I made it. And I filled up the boat with forty loads of blanketweed. Good heavens. But now, if I do it in spring, it isn't such a big job. It's never taken such a hold. Do you do it all yourself, or do you get people to help you? I've had erm on two separate Sundays I've had volunteers to come and help but and my son-in-law made a silt trap, and the Water Board erm made the sluice gate, because it goes into their stream, and it was part of their responsibility. But otherwise I've done it myself. And I enjoy it, it's so peaceful down there. And you have lots of visits from schoolchildren? Yes, they come from the local schools and erm The Watch, the children of what they call The Watch erm part of the Sussex Trust come along, and erm oh, they just pop in and very often they, at the end of term they come with tadpoles and things that they Oh, I, I haven't mentioned the frogs and toads, we've plenty of those. And the children give me gifts of frog spawn and we pop it all in. Yes. How marvellous. And they send you lots of drawings and pictures and little poems and Oh, yes! They articles? When, when they've been down, and they've been back to school, they've sent me a collections of drawings and nice little notes about it, and we've come firm friends because first they look at me, on me as the pond woman, oh, they saw me on television getting my award, and erm they thought that was rather wonderful, and so we, we, we talk and now the, the first ones have quite grown up. But we're all friends. Now, I'm glad you mentioned the award, because I know you didn't do this to do an award, but nevertheless you did get an award. erm Tell me about that. That was totally unplanned. erm I was told by a friend that there was erm Pebble Mill were going to organise an Environment Project Competition for Great Britain, and they suggested I sent for a form, which I did, and filled it in, and erm to my astonishment a film crew came down and filmed the pond, and later on I was invited with my husband to Pebble Mill to get this award and it was given me by Virginia Mackenna and Bill Waters, and David Bellamy was there, and erm we had a wonderful time. And you, you won the individual award in the Conservation Category, is that right? Yes, for nineteen eighty-two. And erm it shows erm a butterfly sitting on a cogwheel. And that was to symbolise erm conservation being supported by industry. And Ford's put up a lot of the money and so they wanted their cut from the publicity, and they gave me another award, and their manager in Brighton came to present it. But I don't know what to do with it. It's a plaque. Put it on my tomb It's a plaque. Yes, it's just a plaque and erm but The thing that erm I enjoyed on that occasion was meeting the other conservationists who'd been called up. erm Everybody was so enthusiastic about what they were doing and erm people like David Bellamy, he gets very excited on television programmes but talking to him as we were, you could see how sincere he is about everything that he does and how dedicated to the cause. Peggy, thank you very much for talking to us. It's And welcome to a new series of Ideas in Action, in which we're taking a look at various approaches to history. What better way of starting such a series than by talking to Asa Briggs, Lord Briggs, prominent author and historian, previous Vice-Chancellor of the University and now Provost of Worcester College, Oxford? I asked him whether history had changed from the dull factual subject, all about kings, queens, and the Repeal of the Corn Laws, that I encountered when I was a schoolboy. I think history can be so many different things to different people, and it's partly a matter of the way in which you are taught, it's partly a matter of what you're taught. There's still unfortunately a great deal of history which is pegged to dates, and dates are very important to historians, but fortunately now there's a lot of history which tries to bring the past back to life in some kind of way. And this kind of history is taught in school, and to a certain extent it's taught in universities also. erm And of course there's a great deal of history which is now being written which is much more exciting than most of the history that used to be written in the past. And the appearance and the style and the treatment of, the kind of materials which come out of history publishers really represents a kind of revolution in the subject, this subject, in the course of the last twenty-five years. You are essentially a social historian? I'm essentially a social historian, although I sometimes think that if I wanted to find the right adjective, and I've never been too much worried about adjectives, I would say I'm really a cultural historian. Because I'm not just interested in society, which can be thought of in a kind of abstract fashion, but I'm very much interested in the expressions in ordinary ways of life, in the arts, in literature, in music, of the kind of society that you've got. And I think if I had to choose an adjective to describe myself, I would say that I'm a cultural historian, with a very strong social interest. I started by being a very straight economic historian. I did a degree in Economics, and erm the first kind of history that interested me was really rather meticulous and careful and detailed economic history. I switched increasingly to erm political history, then I moved from economic and political history to social history, to some extent linking the two, and increasingly over the last ten years, partly through the work that I've done on the history of broadcasting, and on twentieth century history, I think I would say that I would now be a cultural historian. We don't use the adjective much in England. It's used a good deal in the United States. Let's have a look at some of the historians through the ages. When I knew we were going to talk, I dug out some of my old history books. Yes. The earliest ones I think is, are books by erm Clarendon, The History of the Yes. Rebellion. Great work. Eckhardt Yes, yes, yes. Dr. Howell's History of Yes. These, were these really the earliest historians in our nation, as Well they were chronicles, in a sense, erm there were chronicles very frequently written by interested parties, and in the case of Clarendon's History, it was really an attempt to look back over some experiences which he himself had had, and in a way it is a, a, a classic of its kind. There were historians even earlier than that, of course. There were first of all Tudor chroniclers of various kinds, many of them writing straight political propaganda. There were mediaeval chroniclers, working from monasteries and sometimes from the courts, and those chroniclers were producing history which was an attempt as it were to set down what seemed to them to be the most important things that were happening at the time, with a few asides. And of course you really, in order to get at the origins of history, you've really got to go back to the, to the Greeks. And the Greeks did really produce two quite outstanding historians by any criteria, Herodotus and Thucydides. And it used to be very fashionable to say that Thucydides was much the better of these two historians, he was describing erm a war in which he himself took part, he weighed the evidence very carefully, erm he produced very incisive statements about individuals and about problems, and that Herodotus had a lot of myth in what he wrote, and he was more wide-ranging, and he didn't really have the same standards of truth that Thucydides had had. I read them both again erm last year for the first time for many years, and I found Herodotus much the better of the two, because Herodotus was prepared to be curious about everything. And I think that the revolution in history which has taken place over the course of the last twenty-five years has been a revolution which has been fuelled by people's curiosity to study things which previously had not been studied, rather than just to take some formal statement of what seemed to be important, which is what the chroniclers took, or some propaganda statement, which is what the Tudors took and what the seventeenth century historians took, or indeed to write very academic history, which is what professional historians have tended to do, over the course of the last erm forty or fifty years. In the last century, there were many histories written. Yes. Perhaps erm Gibbon's History of erm Gibbon's written in the eighteenth century. That was a little earlier and Gibbon's Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire is again a great historical work, it very wide-ranging. The footnotes by themselves are worthwhile reading. But in a way the nineteenth century was the century of history, because it was erm thought at that particular period of time that in order to understand what was going on in contemporary life, you had to have some historical appreciation, knowledge and perspective, and erm a great deal of the explanation of other subjects in the nineteenth century was, erm if you like, historical in character. The theory of evolution, in a way, is a historical theory. In the twentieth century, history has suffered to some extent in terms of its general significance in relation to people's interpretations of life, because we now have a whole generation of politicians who, and statesmen, if you can call them such, who know very little history at all. But there's a great public interest in history in this country, so that every football club, every voluntary organisation, erm every town erm wants somebody to write its history. Anniversaries are landmark occasions. And through this kind of general interest in history, which is not started in academic circles, but elsewhere, and through the interests of adult education works and working groups of various kinds in history, and through some of the best history taught in schools, we've really broadened our notions of, of, of what history is, and one of the most lively recent developments has been erm the idea of history workshops, where people themselves recall erm what has happened over the course of their own lifetimes, using oral history, tape recorders, and things of that kind. So history's a very much broader and more popular subject in this country than I think it is in almost any other country in the world. We are a country which is very conscious indeed of history, or let's put it this way, of the past, and the job of the historian is to convert that interest in the past into something which is a little bit more critical, more profound, erm and which will genuinely, I think, provide you with some kind of perspective in which to understand the problems of the present. You feel that very strongly in the introduction to your book, your recent social history Yes. book, you, you say that history is not something, I can't remember the quotation exactly but roughly it was to do with history's not something that you just write and put up on the shelf, it's No. something that you're very aware of and you're aware of your own destiny Yes. and, and your own background and Sure. your Sure. own future even. Well I wrote that history erm that social history of England with erm one point very much in mind. It seems to me that if we have any knowledge of England's past at all, we do tend to have a kind of a picture of our history in the back of our minds which may be completely wrong. And there is no one single picture of English history which is absolutely right, in other words there are different interpretations of almost everything that matters in history, but what I wanted to try to do in that social history was to give some account of England's past which was meaningful to people living in the late erm twentieth century. Not for professional historians so much as for people who really did want to have a version of England's past which makes some sense sort of sense now. And we're always revising that picture of the past, in other words, somebody else in twenty-five years' time will have to do a different kind of social history. My social history is very different from Trevelyan's, one of the most remarkable books on English social history, because of course I come from a very different background, I've different experience from Trevelyan, but also I've been writing at a different time. And somebody else with different experience from me, writing in twenty-five years' time, will produce a very different book from mine. Trevelyan wrote in nineteen forty-two. Trevelyan wrote during the course of the, of the, of the war, and it was of course a book which was read by enormous numbers of people erm particularly after the end of the war, and he was of course the nephew of erm Macaulay, and therefore he's in line with another of the great books on English history which were written in the middle of the nineteenth century, Macaulay's A History of England, which also had as many sales as Trevelyan's. And they're the kind of books which in a way encapsulated people's views of what history was, the history of this country was, at that particular point in time. There's a sense in which I think you are saying something which I've often heard people say recently, and that is that in a day, in a time of rapid change, we personally and collectively need to make sense of where we're going, our futures, in terms of our past. And some people talk about roots, it's a common thing Sure. Sure. I think that that's something close to what you're saying. It's something very close to what I'm saying erm and erm I'm saying perhaps one thing in addition, which is that just as when we look into the future, which, as a historian, I'm asked to do more often, I think, these days than looking at the past, but when we look into the future, we have different versions of what that future will be. There are different futures, there are alternative futures, and any deterministic view of what the future will be is clearly erm something which is wrong, in my view. Similarly, I think, as we look into the past, there are different versions of the past. There are different scenarios, to use the term that science fiction writers and futurologists use. The different scenarios are there in the past just as they are in the future, and it's the historian's job in a way to explain why there are different scenarios, and to give some idea of how many of them there are. And he will require, in order to do that, to be a time traveller into the past as much as a science fiction writer would have to be a time traveller into the future. Asa, you've got very close to saying something which I've often pressed historians on, but they've never got quite as close as you have, and that's actually saying that history is useful insofar as it might tell us something about the future. I think that history is interesting insofar as it will tell us something about the future. erm We've got to be very careful about the word ‘useful’, because in my experience it's perfectly possible for people to know an enormous amount of history and to make terrible mistakes. History in these days can be as much a consolation as it can be of an inspiration, and I also believe too that sometimes in life it's very important to emancipate yourself from the shackles of the past in order to make the kind of decisions which it's necessary to make in present conditions. Having said all that, I think the interest erm of history lies in exactly the same kind of area as interest in the future, in the sense that we are dealing erm as historians with time, and, to use the old cliché, time marches on, it certainly moves, and the future, the present and the past do form some kind of continuum. Therefore, the historian to my mind who is really a lively and stimulating historian is going to be interested in the future as well as in the past. Asa Briggs will be speaking again in our concluding programme in this series, but next Sunday John Rohl will be talking about the archivist's role, and his work and discoveries concerning twentieth century Germany. What do you know about the Muddletonians, the Ranters and the Diggers? And who were Praise God Bare Bones and Deliverance Smith? I recently discovered the answer to these questions from Willie Lamont, as I talked to him about his approach to history. I first asked him what changes he would like to see in the history. I think two of the big changes that I would like to see happening, and I think are beginning to happen, one is to put much less stress on the content of history, which in many cases is, is less important, than the learning the skills of a historian. And oddly enough erm the lead in many cases has come as much from the primary school as from the university in this respect. The good primary school, in encouraging children to use documents, to dramatise in the classroom, to get the children into the experience of people living in another age, in many ways come close to what the university historian is doing than some of the secondary erm school histories, which are still weighed down with this content. So I'd like to see more emphasis on the activity of the, the pupil as historian. Secondly I think the other thing is, is a change in what is regarded as the content of history. Because I think one of the extraordinary changes that have taken place in history at professional level is the much greater interest in things that older historian would have thought was outside their province. What sort of things do you have in mind? Well I was thinking of things like witchcraft, which would seem a rather a luxury fringe subject, but some of the most fascinating research that's been done recently in my period of early modern history has been showing how witchcraft erm was the second most important erm crime to come before the courts apart from theft in, in my period, and in exploring why witchcraft had this appeal you're learning much more about the age. The serious point I'm making is that, too often, in schools, the kind of questions are focused on just what is least interesting, not the, people's attitude to witches, or to their bodies, or their attitudes to women, to children, all these things which are now considered part of the historian's province, but instead we get saddled with the Treaty of Uncia Scolesi and the Repeal of the Corn Laws, and this is worrying. One of the qualities which I think you alluded to earlier was the quality of imagination, to the ability of, to actually feel what it was like to be in a particular place at mhm a particular time. mhm Is that, is that the case? That's absolutely right. There was a, a very touching erm and I think rather important book erm published in about nineteen sixty-nine, called The School I'd Like, which was edited by Edward Blisham, in which he got children to describe what they thought the ideal school was like. And I still remember, there was a fourteen-year-old Judith, describing her history lessons, and saying ‘Four years ago in the primary school I crouched, spellbound, before the eye of a Roman gladiator. Now four years later I'm doing British social and economic history, seventeen hundred to the present day, and then listing a whole lot of textile inventions and the flying shuttle and so on, all of which didn't work anyway.’ And she finally ends by saying, ‘All I can look forward to now is the toneless drone of the master's voice and the pendulum swing of his leg over the desk.’ It was a terrifying thought, but it had behind it a lot of erm I think of force, and the point is that the primary school teacher who was getting the child to crouch before the Roman gladiator was not in the business of training professional historians, was much more interested in getting the child involved in an educational way, yet ironically was coming closer to perhaps what we're trying to do at university now, than the teacher who was going through a list of the textile industries and so on. There's been a lot of publicity given, from time to time, to groups that try and live as people did in the Stone Age. And they set up little communities mhm and they try and last a year through the winter mhm and make things out of wood, and, and try and exist more or less independent of twentieth century society. Is, is that serious history, or is it just a sort of jokey thing to do? Well, I, I, I think it depends on the skill and the industry that has gone into the enterprise, but in itself it could be extremely interesting. I found that erm in dealing with erm a radical group in the seventeenth century, the Diggers, led by one called Jerod Winstanley, that erm I did have students who were emboldened by reading of their experiment to, to, to, to see what it was like, as the Diggers did, to form their own little commune and practise their communal living erm à la seventeenth century. I think it only lasted through the summer vacation, but it was a, it was an interesting experience, and in fact in, in their own little way the group showed some of the tensions which we found in our seventeenth-century radicals. I think the, the imagination, training the historical imagination, is, is the most powerful contribution that the study can make. And I think it, it's a mistake to see it just as a kind of erm as a little frill. One sees it occasionally in, in a, in school lessons where a teacher will give a straight factual lesson for thirty-five minutes, and then say, ‘Sit up, get your rulers out, imagine you're a Saxon peasant.’ That's the kind of gimmicky, artificial sort of exercise, when in fact erm in a sense what, what is wanted is, as in fourteen-year-old Judith's case, to, to get into that situation right from the start. I know that you've made a particular study of the Muddletonians. Who were the Muddletonians? Well the Muddletonians were a weird group. They were formed at the same time as the Quakers, actually, in sixteen fifty-two, and the main erm belief of the group was that John Reeve and his cousin Ludowick Muddleton were the two prophets who'd been chosen by God as the last witnesses in the Book of Revelation. God spoke on three February mornings to John Reeve, and told him that he was to be the prophet and his cousin was to be Reeve's mouth. And this little weird group existed in the seventeenth century, never numbered more than about two hundred, and dwindled in number, and was supposed to have died out in about the nineteenth century. And in fact in Chambers' Encyclopaedia, they are confidently reported as being extinct. erm There they might have remained erm but erm a sensational discovery took place, which was during the Second World War, when, in the Blitz, a bomb actually hit the, the, the place of worship for the Muddletonians, where they were still worshipping though in very small number, and the man whom we have called the last Muddletonian, who was a farmer in Matfield in Kent, went out with his lorry — you remember petrol was rationed during the war, but he was allowed as a farmer — he took his fruit to Covent Garden, and then went to the smoking ruins of the Muddletonian worship, and filled his apple boxes with papers, and they remained there until the nineteen seventies. A most extraordinary thing, because there was the records of a group running right through from sixteen fifty erm to, to the present day, and lying there in apple boxes. So you were able to get access to these records and make a full study of them. Yes, and one of the great ironies is that when I'm talking to students about the nature of history, one of the first things I try and say to them is ‘Look, don't have this idea that there's a great bundle of documents lying in an attic, and this is the way that history works, that people make a sensational discovery and then they write a book about it. It doesn't work like that at all,’ I say quite confidently. Unfortunately the Muddletonians erm seems to contradict the point I'm wanting to make, because erm frankly it seems to belong more to the world of historical novels. The fact is that this last Muddletonian lived on till nineteen seventy-nine, and we believe that the, the sect ends with him there. But his widow has made a present of a portrait of, of the, of the prophet, which is now in the Meeting House in Sussex University, with a plaque erm commemorating the gift. And in one respect it's not quite erm as straightforward as I've made it appear, and perhaps after all I'm not wrong in making the claim I did, because E P Thompson, the historian, erm was the person who really made the discovery in the first place, and it came about because he had been interested in the possible links between the Muddletonians and Blake, and this led him to ask questions which, in a roundabout way, led to the discovery of the archive. I mean, there was certainly an accident element in, in the, in the physical discovery of the manuscripts, but also it arose out of the historian asking questions, out of the interest that he was wanting to explore. This part of the country is extraordinarily rich in small sects that grew up and flourished in the last two or three centuries. mhm Is that for any particular reason? erm We've got quite a number in Sussex, haven't we? Oh yes, that's true. Just now been produced erm a local study on Quakers in Lewes, and of course we have the, the Marian martyrs, and a wonderful blacksmith creature called Huntington, William Huntington, who in fact does actually mention the Muddletonians with great contempt. It's very interesting that it's in Sussex and East Kent that, just in the border there, that some of the most exotic Puritan names that you sometimes hear about, Praise God Bare Bones and Deliverance Smith and these kind of weird names, which are often thought of as typically Puritan, in fact are very narrowly defined to a geographical area, and in time. That most of these exotic names, these exotic Puritan names, are to be found just in the few villages on the borders of East Sussex and Kent that, and are, are to be found in the fifteen nineties to sixteen hundreds. It was a fad which didn't last, but again it does bear out your, your general point. And some of them, of course, emigrated to the United States because they couldn't cope with life back in the old lands, the Shakers, are they part of the same sort Yes. of thing? Yes, that's right, and in fact I, I was interested for erm even before I got interested in the Muddletonians in the way in which people in the early modern period were fascinated by the idea of Christ returning on earth a second time, on the millennium, and erm I wrote about that experience. Another Sussex colleague, John Harrison, erm followed this through erm for the nineteenth century, and he's written about the Shakers and I've been interested in the Muddletonians and the Ranters. In all these bizarre religious groups, one is in fact trying to recreate in an imaginative way a world that's rather different from us. I think that one of the great problems, and I've made a number of studies of individual Puritans in the seventeenth century, is that we talk about Puritanism and we think of Victorian Nonconformity. In fact, as Christopher Hill says, they're as different as vinegar from wine. And one of the things we mustn't do, in fact, is to assume that erm our seventeenth ancestor is just ourselves in funny clothes. What we have to do, we have to make the mental leap into a very different world in which witchcraft and dreams and superstitions and so on are mingling together and we must make that effort, and not just assume that somehow it's William Gladstone who happens to be dressed up in Oliver Cromwell's clothes. So history really is not just facts, it's also imagination. Yes. There's a lovely erm James Thurber cartoon which shows somebody sitting in a room and there's a lovely party going around and everybody else is talking very animatedly and somebody's looking over their shoulder and saying contemptuously, ‘He doesn't know anything except facts.’ And one has a nasty feeling that this would be erm a, an O-level history candidate, where unfortunately that is, seems to be just the quality that's required. And there was a Dutch historian,Reneer in London, who used to give lectures in which he made a point of not knowing any dates, and he would say ‘The Armada came in’, and then there'd be a little row of girls who'd call out ‘Fifteen eighty-eight’, and then he'd say ‘James the First came to the throne in’, and they would call out ‘Sixteen oh three.’ That may be a rather spectacular and extravagant way of showing his disdain for factual knowledge erm which no doubt can go too far. But I think it's going in the right direction, that in, in a sense what is not wanted is, is facts to, to cluster the, the, the memory but erm imaginative qualities to kindle the, the intellectual spirit's curiosity that we really want to awaken. Willie, thank you very much indeed. Next Sunday, I shall be talking to Keith Middlemas about his studies of European Communism. Hello. There are probably as many approaches to history as there are historians studying the subject. In my investigations so far, I've come across practitioners who could equally well be categorised as anthropologists, geographers, economists, sociologists and even philosophers. Vivian Hart, for example, could be described as a political scientist, who has found herself delving into history. Her main interest is that of minimum wage negotiations. That's right, it may sound a very boring topic but in fact it's turned out to be a very interesting piece of historical research which I'm still working on. How far back in time does this go? Well, in Britain and America, which are the two countries I'm looking at, erm almost the same moment, round about nineteen oh nine in both countries. And does it go back earlier in other countries, or is it just restricted to Britain and America? No, various European countries started erm thinking about the same idea at the same time, and there are some interesting questions here about why everybody suddenly lit upon this piece of legislation. Well why did they? Well, the answers to that of course are very complicated, but they all became interested or anxious at a similar time about the problems of extreme poverty. They discovered sweatshops and people working in their homes for long hours trying to erm patch together a very very poor living. And one of the reasons they all became interested at the same time was that a lot of them knew each other, and so one of the things I've been looking at is the correspondence between Americans and British people, and the fact that they travelled and kept diaries of who they met in the other country, and they all swapped ideas on how to deal with this particular level of poverty. Now the year nineteen oh nine seems to me a curious year. I, I don't identify that with any particular happening in the United States or this country. Why nineteen oh nine? Well, the legislation in Britain, the first law which is the law from which our present wages councils for people like hairdressers came from erm was passed in nineteen oh nine, and it was because we had a reforming Liberal Government at the time. And also because a great wave of public pressure built up. There were big exhibits of people living in dreadful conditions in tenements in the East End for example, and the legislation in Britain followed about, in America I mean, followed about three years later. erm Partly out of the same kind of wave of public sympathy, but was much slower and much more long-drawn-out process in America. Yes, Americans, erm I have the impression, they're being rather slow to go in for this sort of Federal legislation. But presumably there were one or two great exponents around at that time that set the whole thing off? Oh, there were some very strong-minded individuals, whose papers I've been reading, and whose correspondence is, is fascinating. The main one I think was a woman called Florence Kelly, who was a powerhouse of reforming energy. She erm lived in a rented room in a settlement house in New York and she really provided the, the energy of the movement all over the country. If you read her diaries you discover that she travelled incessantly on trains and overnight trains so that she could speak at meetings the next morning. She had a number of very enthusiastic friends who did the research and, and generally assisted her, but everybody gives her credit for, not only working in New York, but it actually was not Federal legislation, they had to work state by state. So they achieved it in one state and then they moved on to another and started a whole new campaign. Your study may be a historical one, but it in fact, this is very much a political movement, isn't it? It must be. Oh yes. Yes. It was erm a movement to pass legislation. It was very controversial at the time and it's remained so ever since, and indeed in both Britain and America there are political movements right now to change minimum wage laws in, in ways that I think Florence Kelly would deeply have disapproved of. What sort of directions are these movements going, then? Oh, for example, to pay young people a lower minimum wage. They may be doing the same job as older people, but there are questions about whether you might not make more jobs for young people if you paid them seventy-five per cent, two-thirds of, of the going minimum wage. And that's the kind of singling out of one group of workers, and making a special case for them, that she really disapproved of. She wanted all poor people to have a floor below which their wages could never fall. A subsistence level of, of wages which would be basic and never dropped. erm Nineteen oh nine is relatively recent in terms of history. Are there any of the people who were involved in those negotiations still around? Oh yes, one of the, one of the surprises of this was discovering that in fact one of the people who knew Florence Kelly and indeed worked for her for a while, and who herself set up a minimum wage board in Washington, in the District of Columbia, is indeed still alive, and has very powerful memories of, of both the people and the activities of the movement. And I was able to go and talk to her in Washington, and, and really feel that history was coming alive. She's ninety-three now, so she has a, a very long memory of, of political causes. And she actually remembers the, the details of what happened in those days? Oh yes. She talked about her entire life, and I was running behind trying to keep up with which decade she was talking about. She was also very much involved in the nineteen thirties in Franklin Roosevelt's social programmes. But she remembers very well and erm she was able to give me a lot of personal details about the movement in nineteen nineteen. She wasn't actually there in nineteen twelve, she was still an undergraduate in nineteen twelve, but she became active in government about nineteen seventeen and, and her memories are very vivid. How absolutely fascinating. And when you actually do a study such as this, where do you go for source material? Well, you start out by reading any books that you can find to give you an idea of who was involved, and my next stop after that was the Library of Congress in Washington, where they have the papers of the National Consumers' League, which was Florence Kelly's organisation, and, and contains most of her own personal records, too. And after that it's, it's partly systematic, that you discover more organisations and you go and look for them, and it's partly luck, that erm you drop into a library or you meet someone who says ‘Oh, did you know that erm there are these papers in, in such and such a library?’ For example I found myself in a warehouse in Manhattan, where the New York Public Library keeps a lot of its records, and I discovered an enormous deposit of papers of, of an organisation which was actually very strongly against the minimum wage, which appeared not to have been touched for about the last — sixty years? My goodness. Very dirty. I'm sure. Minimum wages. erm Has that been a concern of unions, or has it been other sorts of organisations that have been pressing for them over the years? Mostly other organisations. In, in Britain the unions accepted the idea and went along with the legislation. In America the unions fought it. They didn't want the government starting to set wages. They felt that if it set the wages of very poor people, the next thing it would do would be to start setting the wages of trade unionists. So they actually took a very active role against it, and had been the allies of people like the National Consumers' League on other issues, but on this one they really differed, and were one of the major blocks to passing the legislation. And how about in Britain? Have the unions supported minimum wage negotiations here? On the whole, on the principle that the people who are not covered by union membership very often are people it's very difficult to organise. They're very poor people, they may work in industries with hundreds and hundreds of small outlets, whether they're workshops in people's homes or hairdressing shops, and it's much harder to organise that kind of person than it is to organise a factory worker in a big factory. And so on the whole the unions in Britain have seen this as a way of catching some people who otherwise would fall through the net entirely. Whereas in America the unions have seen it as an intrusion on their rights to collectively bargain, even though they haven't been very active in trying to organise them themselves. In terms of this country, in particular, you said that it, it started roughly the same time because of the, the legislation in nineteen oh nine. That was legislation was put through by the Liberals at the time, would it be? Yes, Winston Churchill was the President of the Board of Trade at the time, and he actually sponsored the legislation. Since then it hasn't changed at all. It's been recodified but the general principle of it has stayed really exactly the same. In America where initially it was done one state after another, it actually has changed quite a lot and erm the developments have been very interesting, partly because they've been in the courts rather than in Congress. So lawyers as well as politicians have been very much involved in defining what it actually means. Is there actually a definition difficulty? Oh, there's a tremendous difficulty in deciding what a minimum wage should be. Should it be a subsistence wage and if so how do you calculate how much that is? Is it the same in the middle of New York as it is in erm a rural area somewhere, where people presumably can live on the land more easily? And there's also a big problem in defining who should get it. The original American legislation was only for women, and they made in fact some very erm convoluted and not very satisfactory arguments about why they should only do it for women. There were a lot of very poor men also in a number of these trades who were not originally covered by the legislation, and that's where the erm the developments have, have come from since then, the dynamic of the policy, because the argument over whether it should be only for women rebounded on them, and people said, ‘No, it shouldn't’, so for a while the legislation was all scrapped and then they started again, and now the Americans have much more comprehensive laws than we do. Why was it originally only for women? Well they thought they could only get it through both legislatures and the courts for women. Women at the time didn't yet have the vote, and they made arguments about women being more dependent people, less able to fight for themselves, more in need of the protection of the state, which in some cases did not actually distinguish women from men in the same industries. But at the time they thought that was all they could get, and they decided to go for half a loaf rather than the whole. Roughly speaking, what are the arguments against having a minimum wage? You've explained what are the erm objections which come from unions, and I would imagine there's a political element in the sense of, roughly speaking, more conservative inclined people might be pushing against, more socialist inclined may be pushing for. Am I right? Yes, that's true. The, the erm conservative tends to believe that the free market should set people's wages and that the supply and demand of labour and the number of people looking for jobs in an industry will affect the level that the wages reach. And the argument that my reformers made against that was simply that where you have a huge number of people who are desperate for jobs, there's no level below which the wages may not fall, under a free market system. But there's a moral argument that at some point you're not paying them enough to live on. You're paying them starvation wages, and someone else therefore is keeping them alive, might be their husbands, it might be the state giving them charity, it might be the state giving them pensions or unemployment benefits, it might be charities giving them clothes and food just to keep them alive, and that that's immoral. No employer has a right to take the work of a man or a woman without paying them a living wage. So the moral argument was the one originally that triumphed, but the argument about the market is, is the alternative. You basically are in favour of a minimum wage. I'm convinced by the moral argument. It's very hard to spend months in the archives, reading the papers of the people who spent so much of their lives fighting for this kind of thing, and not I think be rather affected by dedication and by the evidence that they amassed with such enormous difficulty, and by the way they kept coming back and fighting for it over and over again, and the free market argument by comparison lacks that kind of humanity I think. Thank you very much, Vivian. Hello. About a month ago I spent an afternoon looking through the German National Film Archives in Coblentz. Three of us, an American student, a German woman and I, watched newsreels dating from before the First World War to about nineteen forty-eight. After a couple of hours the German lady and I were so choked with emotion that we were scarcely able to speak. ‘That was a lot of fun,’ said our young American companion, as we left. John Rohl is a historian with a special expertise in modern German history. John, how did you actually get interested in German history? I think the first answer I must give you is, is simply in terms of my personal biography. I was born in London in nineteen thirty-eight, but my father was German, my mother was English, I was actually born in the German Hospital in London. And so I was almost predestined to consider how the two great nations of Western Europe, the Germans and the English, related to one another. And of course I was also born almost with the, with one very important advantage, which was that I could speak German erm from birth, as well as English. So you've carried out quite a lot of your studies actually in Germany. I am very much an archive man, Brian. I spend all my vacations, and sometimes my sabbatical years, in German archives, rooting out erm previously unpublished material. Do you have a particular speciality, a particular interest? In a narrow sense my main interest is the period in which the Kaiser ruled over Germany, which of course includes the First World War. In a more general sense I am fascinated by some of the things you've just mentioned in your introduction, the question of continuity in German history, how we, how this marvellous nation, the nation of Beethoven and Wagner and Marx and Freud, actually finishes up going to war twice against its European neighbours, and in the Second World War in particular committing these awful atrocities. And in the process of course destroying the old Europe, allowing the very thing that, arguably, they were trying to stop from happening, to happen, that is to say, allowing the Russians to advance towards the Elbe, and allowing the Anglo-Saxons as they see it to erm come from the west and taken over the western half of Europe. Germany as a country hasn't really existed for very long, has it? It was founded, as you rightly imply, in the eighteen sixty-six to seventy-one period as a nation-state, although one could argue whether in fact it was a nation-state or not. And of course it was completely cut apart in nineteen forty-five, losing two-fifths of its territories altogether to Poland, and erm the remainder then being erm cut into two, to East Germany and West Germany, with France receiving Alsace-Lorraine back again. What went wrong with Germany as a nation? That's a question we're all asking ourselves. There are basically two interpretations, if you like, in a broad sense. The first is that everything was really all right until nineteen eighteen. In other words, according to this view, Germany along with all the other nations stumbled into war in nineteen fourteen, was then declared, simply because she was the defeated party, declared to be the guilty party, erm had punitive terms imposed on her at the Treaty of Versailles, and as a result of this moved towards extremism in internal politics, with the erm consequence that the Democratic Republic of Weimar collapsed, erm Hitler came to power, and Hitler was some kind of evil person, a Satanic messenger from Hell, who first of all visited his atrocities on, on the Germans before doing the same to Europe as a whole. That is the old view that a lot of the older generation of conservative German historians have been trying to persuade us of. The alternative vision is the one that I subscribe to, and along with me, most historians in this country and in America, and indeed increasingly erm a young generation of German historians, and this is that things began to go wrong well before nineteen fourteen, and that the Germans in fact deliberately started the First World War as the Treaty of Versailles said they did, that nineteen eighteen was not therefore the beginning of the evil, but merely a hiccup in erm a German attempt to conquer Europe, erm as it were, a play with two acts, the first act being nineteen fourteen to eighteen, and then the second act being nineteen thirty-nine to forty-five, two attempts to dominate the continent of Europe by military force. It's an interesting situation that you alluded to, that people that win wars, on the whole, given enough time, are regarded as ‘all right’, whereas people that lose often are cast in the role of being baddies. I suppose if we look at British history there was a period in the last century and earlier where we did a pretty good job of conquering people, but we don't feel too badly about that, but we feel pretty indignant about Germany trying to take a bit more territory at various points. Yes, I think one of the mistakes the Germans made erm was to try to take territory in Europe. The times had simply passed when one could conquer France, conquer Belgium, conquer Holland, even conquer Eastern Europe, and say, ‘This is the same as moving into Africa or moving into the Far East’. The nations of Europe had become too proud, too self-aware to tolerate that, and gradually, with this kind of behaviour, a collective anti-German consciousness arose I think which, strangely, even today unites Russians, Poles, with people in the west of Europe and America. Do you believe in what I might call national characteristics? Do you think, for example, in Germany, in the nineteen-thirties, there was just an evil genius, Hitler, who managed to carry all before him, or do you think that the, the people as a whole were ready to be persuaded along those particular lines? I don't believe in national character in any biological sense, but I do think that the German people were ready for a person like Hitler. Now in between those two extremes, the notion on the one hand that somehow national character is biologically predetermined, and the other that what nations do is merely accidental, erm you've got the whole area of erm education, state control of the media, newspapers, erm even prisons and armies, conscription, things of that kind, which actually fashion erm national character for, not forever, but for the period in which those forces are in control, and that is a particular message that the youth of that country is receiving. In other words this can be susceptible to change. If you then get a complete change in regime, as happened in nineteen forty-five, if you get re-education, if you get a completely new economic and indeed world, international situation, then of course the Germans become different people. How is the German background, the German education, the German social system, whatever it is, how does it differ, say, from the English system? Well since nineteen forty-five, in the Federal Republic of Germany, there is very little difference essentially between the educational system erm there and the educational system in this country, for very obvious reasons, I think the western Allies simply imposed their values, their educational systems among other things, on the West Germans, who were rather reluctant at the time to accept it, but have grown to love those values and arguably are now as good if not better at preserving them than we are. Of course before nineteen forty-five the value system being emitted by the educational system and other sources in the whole of Germany, in a much larger Germany than the Federal Republic of Germany, was very different indeed from those being purveyed in the educational establishments of this country or in France. In what ways, John, did they differ? erm I think there was a great erm stress on authoritarianism. I mean all the clichés really on Germany's need to expand militarily, on the need to do one's duty, to obey orders in an unquestioned way. You had to be very courageous to be a democrat. It wasn't the dominant ideology. If one is of course a member of a minority, let us say, one is a Jew or erm a socialist or erm a South German, erm then one is much more likely to cherish democratic values and federal values, and much less likely to accept authoritarian rule from above. John, you're clearly very passionately involved with this, and have been involved with studying German history for twenty years plus. erm Why is this? One of the reasons, Brian, is that I think German history is too important to be left to the German historians. They've not in the past shown themselves to be very honest erm nor very keen on going into their own archives, and I think it's, actually takes people like me, who live on the border-lines if you like of the two cultures, to go in and discover erm sometimes embarrassing documents, embarrassing information, to confront them with it, in their own language, so that they have to take stock. If it weren't for people like myself erm then maybe the older German tradition of historical writing would still today be dominant. One of the things that always puzzles me about archives is it seems to me that there must be a limited number of archives, and there are an awful number of historians. How do people keep on finding new things to look at? erm I think the first answer is that erm not all historians go into archives. I think they ought to much more than they do, but the plain truth is that they don't. A lot of them philosophise, and let's be clear about this, it's actually extraordinarily difficult to read erm German archival records. I've known many British historians who have an adequate reading knowledge of German, erm who go into the archives expecting to be able to read the documents, and what they don't realise in advance is that the handwriting is actually Gothic script. It is a handwriting that you could not read, for example, however hard you tried. It is as foreign to, to your eyes as the Russian script would be. So one has to actually learn erm an entirely new alphabet before even being able to read the first word on the first page that you see in the archives. And a lot of people at that stage give up. There are a lot of archives, but there are even more archives than you imagine there are because there are actually erm a huge number of archives in private houses and castles in Germany that are not public archives, and a lot of people don't even know about these. I think you have to evolve, develop quite a lot of detective sense, to meet people, to imagine where could further letters be that would help me, and you have to charm your way virtually into those houses, and persuade the people erm to let you look at Grandfather's letters in the trunk in the attic. And do you very often come up with erm new papers, new information, which, in your mind, at any rate, changes one's view Yes. about what happened? All the time. Every time I go into a new archive I just can't believe what I'm discovering. Just give you one example if I may erm which erm will serve to underline the sort of points that I've been making erm to you. I discovered recently, in a public archive, a letter from the Kaiser, written in nineteen nineteen, to erm an ex-general of his, saying that the Jews must be exterminated from German soil. More recently still, I came across a letter written in English, by the Kaiser to an American friend, dated nineteen twenty-five, in which he writes, erm ‘The Jews must be exterminated in a pogrom covering the whole world.’ That is clear in his mind, the only question for him is how this should be done, and he says, ‘I think probably we should treat them like mosquitoes, that is to say, we should, we must use gas.’ And it was popularly believed that those ideas weren't prevalent until much later presumably. Oh, I mean this material, which I've discovered, when it's published, will rock the German historical establishment, there's no doubt about it. Their entire case has been designed to prove that Hitler was some kind of freak event that had no links with the German past. If I can demonstrate that the Kaiser himself, the monarch who ruled Germany for thirty years until nineteen eighteen, had ideas very similar if not identical to those of Hitler's, at a time when he was not in contact with Hitler, when Hitler's party was nowhere in political terms, then I think that's yet another very important indication that there is continuity in German history from say the Bismarckian period through to nineteen forty-five, and that Hitler stands in that national tradition, and is not some kind of lightning erm that, that struck Germany erm from a blue sky. John, my last question is simply this: Can one learn from history? Do you think that the German people today have a sense of their own recent history? Somebody once said that if we don't history we're condemned to repeat history, and God forbid if that were erm to happen. I don't think it will happen, because I think the German people have learned from their history. I'm bound to say that they failed to learn from their own history after nineteen-eighteen, so that they did in effect repeat erm their history a second time with disastrous consequences for everybody. Had they, after nineteen-eighteen, learnt the lessons that were to be learnt, then we might have been spared Hitler and the Second World War. You said at an earlier stage in this conversation erm that it's always the defeated parties who are blamed for starting wars. That implies that in a sense that there's a question of choice about it. I don't think there is a question of choice. I think the record, it's available in the archives, historians who are honest and hardworking could even then have come up with erm answers that would have incriminated the German leaders of nineteen-fourteen, and therefore moved German society, I believe, substantially towards the democratic centre, if not the Social Democratic Left. Fascinating, John. I wish we had time to talk more about this. Next Sunday, Willie Lamont gives his approach to history, when Of a number of works on twentieth century literature, including books on Camus and other people. And, perhaps most important from the point of view of Sussex, he was the originator and the editor of a series which will be many of you, largely based on productions from this University, erm involving, comprising six volumes on French literature and its background. He was fairly recently awarded an honorary Doctor of Letters by his college, Trinity College Dublin, he tells me he's not quite sure why but I think there are really good reasons, and he is a member of the University's Grants Committee. I'm not at all sure about the relevance of the last of these qualifications to the proceedings this evening but I am sure that all the other qualifications and all the rest of the experience conspire to make John Cruikshank an eminently suitable lecturer on our subject for tonight, which is ‘Proust: Novelist and Explorer’. Thank you, John. Ladies and gentlemen, I'm very grateful to Professor Eppell for his characteristically kind and generous remarks, and erm I accept them all the more readily because I know you will treat them with a healthy degree of scepticism. erm At least two considerations, I think, make it a rather unnerving experience to attempt a critical assessment of Proust. In the first place, because of his own sharp intelligence and his, particularly perhaps his self-awareness, as a writer, he's one of the best exponents of his own work, and one has moments of panic therefore, erm in which further comment seems either foolhardy or superfluous or quite likely both. erm Again, Proust emphasised repeatedly the shifting, elusive nature of personal identity. erm In fact a simple formulation of this problem occurs in the opening paragraphs of À la Recherche, erm when the narrator writes this: ‘When I woke in the middle of the night, I could not tell where I was, just as I did not know at first who I was. I simply experienced, in its most elementary form, the sense of existing.’ This distinction, between, as it were, having an existence, and possessing an identity, erm is a major preoccupation in the novel, just as finding answers to the questions ‘Where am I?’ or rather more importantly ‘Who am I?’is one of its central objectives. The fact that individual identity is surrounded by doubt and confusion in this way prompts of course the anxious question in such as myself, ‘Who was Marcel Proust?’ and ‘Has one identified him in terms appropriate to a centenary celebration?’ In seeking to answer this last question, erm I decided not to attempt a kind of structural analysis, the kind of structural analysis which characterises in fact a lot of important current critical writing, but to approach Proust in fact along the more familiar lines of biography and straight analysis of his work. I did so erm partly because this seems the most useful approach for an audience, not all of whom perhaps have read in detail the fifteen volumes of À la Recherche du Temps Perdu, erm and partly because he in fact offers a very interesting challenge, I think, at this precise level. Once one thinks in terms of the man on the one hand, and his writings on the other, one is surprise, even, I think, puzzled and disconcerted, by the disparity, the apparent disparity at any rate, between, on the one hand, the frequenter of the Faubourg Saint Germain salons, and, on the other, the author of À la Recherche, between the rather eccentric hypochondriac and the observer in the novel of human weakness, erm between perhaps the often precious and whimsical Figaro columnist and the architect of an astonishingly complex and lengthy novel, amounting to something like one and a quarter million words. If one is inclined, as one may well be, to doubt the validity of sets of distinctions of the kind I've just made, they are at least based on a separation which Proust placed at the centre of his own critical theory. In a damaging exposure of Saint Beuve's literary critical method, Proust argued against Saint Beuve that the biography of a writer, erm even an account of his habits, his social attitudes, his vices, his virtues and so on, that this may tell us nothing at all about the nature and significance of his imaginative work. erm The social man, Proust says, rarely offers a key to the creative personality, and he's anxious to keep a distinction between these two things, and I shall try to do something the same. erm This idea, I think, takes particular form in À la Recherche. Marcel, the first person narrator of the novel, meets the writer Bergotte for the first time. Up to this point, he'd experienced an almost boundless admiration for the Bergotte whose books he had read with intense pleasure, if you like, Bergotte the artist and thinker. And now, on a particular social occasion in the novel, he's introduced to Bergotte at a gathering in the Faubourg Saint Germain erm and he's shocked at what seems to be the gap between the man who faces him and the author whose works he has so admired, and he writes, ‘My greeting was returned by a youthful, uncouth, small, thickset, shortsighted person, with a red nose, curled like a snail's shell, and a black tuft on his chin. The nose and beard also seemed to imply, to produce, to secrete constantly a certain kind of mind which had nothing to do with the intelligence diffused throughout the books, books that I knew so intimately, and which were permeated by a gentle and God-like wisdom.’ One may say, of course, that Marcel is shocked simply because he has a foolish, a foolishly romantic conception of what a writer should look like. One may also want to argue that an uncouth manner and a snail-like nose erm are no barrier to the possession of gentle and God-like wisdom. erm Yet the distinction is one on which Proust repeatedly insists, at least for critical purposes, and elsewhere I think he puts the same idea quite succinctly, when he says and I quote, ‘The man who inhabits the same body as a great genius has very little contact with him.’ The dualism implied by this statement can be related I think directly and appropriately to Proust himself. At the same time it seems fair to say that until recently, writing about Proust, particularly perhaps in England, but in France, too, has concentrated too much and too exclusively on the social element in the dualism, has concentrated too much, if you like, on the nose and the beard. Reminiscences have been published, dwelling lovingly on the Belle Époque, and Proust's place in it. Octogenarian titled ladies have provided accounts of Proust dining at the Ritz and dispensing ridiculously large tips, playing the tables in various fashionable casinos, entertaining the Faubourg Saint Germain with his gossip and his apparently outstanding powers of mimicry, or even cautiously testing the air, at one of the Normandy seaside resorts, wrapped in his fur-lined cloak on a summer day. Now of course all this is fascinating in its own way, and it no doubt leads us at least onto the fringes of an entertaining piece of social history. Nevertheless, I think its effect is to distort in some ways the dualism set up by Proust. erm The effect is in fact to concentrate on the curling nose and the tufted beard at the expense of the wisdom and the artistic achievement. It seems to me appropriate and indeed perhaps essential that one should offer a brief biographical sketch of Proust on an occasion like this, but I shall try to avoid the unbalance of which I've spoken, by at least relating the biography to the circumstances in which the novel was written, and I shall in any case spend the major part of the time that remains on an examination of the novel itself. Marcel Proust was born in Paris, on the tenth of July, eighteen seventy-one, two months after the collapse of the Commune. erm His father was a well-known doctor, who seems curiously enough to have failed markedly to understand the causes of his son's lifelong illness erm and his mother was the daughter of a Jewish stockbroker. And although Proust and his younger brother were in fact brought up as Catholics, Marcel remained particularly conscious of the Jewish elements in his background, and this indeed is quite an important element, as some of you will know, in the novel. When the Dreyfus Affair, with its rather unpleasant anti-Semetic, anti-Semitic aspects, broke on the French political scene in the eighteen nineties, Proust became an active Dreyfuseur at once, signing the famous Manifesto of the Intellectuals, and obtaining the signatures of various other people. He attended the trial of Zola daily, and he even smuggled a copy of his first book of essays, as it turns out I think the wildly inappropriate Les plaisirs et les jours, to the imprisoned Colonel Picard, who had become the defender of Dreyfus at considerable personal cost. From the age of nine Proust suffered spasmodically but severely from asthma. Inevitably his mother nursed and protected him in his early years, and this was the basis of a deep, perhaps inordinately and unhealthily deep, attachment of son to mother. On the other hand, as his awareness of his own homosexual tendencies developed during his teens, the deep emotional dependence on his mother was complicated by a contrary feeling of resentment, based no doubt on guilt. Because of course he knew perfectly well that the promptings of his own nature were an offence to his mother's moral code. And I think one can say that, by general standards, Proust was physically ill, and emotionally unbalanced, despite his increasing social successes, and even an unexpected twelve months spent, as a volunteer mark you, in the French army. erm He became in fact the arch-introspective: ill, somewhat neurotic, and yet possessing unusual insight into his own and other people's emotional and mental processes. Despite the distinction he made between, as it were, the ordinary daily self and the special writing self, it's difficult not to see, in his own nature, evidence of some of his clearest gifts as a novelist. Indeed, he accepts, I think, this kind of connection, when he writes, at one point, well on in the novel, ‘The magnificent yet pitiable family of the nervously afflicted is the salt of the earth. It is they and they only who have founded religions and composed artistic masterpieces.’ The religion which Proust eventually elaborated, as we shall see, was I think a religion of art, and the masterpiece which he wrote was of course his novel in fifteen volumes. Up to the age of thirty or so he appeared to devote himself mainly to the social life of various celebrated Parisian salons. Although he has been accused, of course, of social snobbery, I think it's clear that he observed the life around him closely and critically. Indeed, a striking and major aspect of the final volumes of À la Recherche is their often cruel analysis of the moral bankruptcy and social collapse of this salon world, during the years that culminated in the First World War. It seems fair to say, in fact, that the first thirty years of Proust's life laid much of the intellectual basis for his later literary erm achievements, and it was incidentally also during the eighteen nineties, that, among other things, he obtained a, a Licence des lettres, that he attended Bergson's lectures, that he discovered Ruskin, and that he wrote the bulk of nearly a thousand manuscript sheets discovered in an old hatbox after the last World War, and published as Jean Santeuil in nineteen fifty-two. And this is a novel which is I suppose an early but certainly a very embryonic attempt to write À la Recherche. Between nineteen hundred and one and nineteen hundred and six, increasing illness erm severely restricted Proust's social engagements, and indeed because of his asthma erm he tended to stay in bed during the day, and get up only at night, though even those who don't suffer from asthma have been known to adopt this regime for other purposes. erm His father died in nineteen hundred and three and his mother in nineteen hundred and five and of course his mother's death was a particularly shattering blow, and he actually spent six weeks in a clinic for neurotics. However, again like many another, Proust cherished, and I mean cherished, his own psychosomatic troubles. He successfully resisted treatment, and he returned home from the clinic describing himself, and I use his own words, as being ‘fantastically ill’. At the same time, erm if his mother's death intensified his illness, it also freed him to concentrate more fully on the writing of his novel. Madame Proust had not greatly favoured his desire to write fiction. She had encouraged him rather to work as a translator, this seemed to be a safer activity. erm Also while she still lived, he had been of course inhibited from putting down on paper very much of a novel which, now largely formed in his mind, and in which sexual abnormality would play erm at least a considerable part. At the end of nineteen hundred and six, he moved to the Boulevard Haussmann. Because of a phobia about noise, which was one of his several rather neurotic characteristics, he had his study, as we all know, lined with cork to insulate it. And indeed, incidentally, when he stayed in the famous erm Grande Hôtel at Cabours in the summer, he frequently rented additional rooms on either side of his own, in order to ensure silence. This is also the period when he hired as chauffeur and typist a young man, Alfred Agostinelli, who drove him to the seaside in a closed car, took him by the same means to visit many Romanesque churches in Normandy, and who was killed when the plane he was learning to fly crashed into the sea off Antibes in nineteen fourteen. And Proust's relationship with Agostinelli, over a period of I suppose something like seven years, undoubtedly contributed a certain amount to the main outline of the Marcel-Albertine affair in the novel. The last fifteen years of Proust's life — he died in nineteen twenty-two — are mainly the story of the actual writing of À la Recherche. It was completed in nineteen hundred and twelve, turned down by three publishing houses, including the Nouvelle Revue Française, and finally accepted by Grasset on the understanding that, while it would appear under Grasset's imprint, it would also appear at the author's expense. erm Only Du Côté de chez Swann erm had appeared when the outbreak of war, and Bernard Grasset's call-up, interrupted further publication. By the end of the War, the Nouvelle Revue Française people realised their mistake in refusing the novel in the first place, and with that erm commercial acumen which I think still characterises that particular publishing house, they now quickly obtained exclusive publication rights. erm During the four years of war, however, erm and indeed right up to his death in nineteen twenty-two, Proust revised and enlarged his novel so much that it trebled in length, and the publication was not in fact completed until after his death in nineteen twenty-seven. Some indication of the immense editorial difficulties that arose, many of which I may say were not solved until the, the Pléiade edition in three volumes of nineteen fifty-four, some of the difficulty I think is hinted at, at any rate, in a recent description of the state of Proust's papers at the moment of his death, and I quote: ‘Huge packets of type- and manuscript, the pages festooned with half-illegible addenda, and blackened with savage deletions which had swallowed up entire paragraphs, heaped the ugly little bamboo table that stood near his death-bed, and overflowed from the shelves of the table along the top of the nearby chimneypiece. Three of the seven sections of À la recherche du temps perdu still awaited publication, and although one had been typed and corrected, none of them was yet in proof. Among the papers that the novelist left behind him were many feverously scribbled notes, showing changes that he intended to make, and new episodes that, given the opportunity, he would have worked into his narrative.’ Turning more directly now to À la recherche itself, one can say I think that its many images of search and travel provide some justification for the sub-title of this talk, ‘The Novelist as Explorer’. The whole novel is in fact a voyage of exploration and discovery, erm exploration of the nature of reality and the eventual discovery of how this reality can be recreated for our detailed inspection by means of art. And it's this journey from external reality to the profound truths of art, a journey which takes Proust through a series of investigations of the nature of time, the nature of the intellect, the nature of memory, it's this journey which I must now attempt to trace, and I perhaps just ought to say that I think I get abstract once or twice from this point onwards. I don't think it's so much the difficulty of the matter, as the inadequacy of the manner, but erm it the main structure behind erm what I have to say at any rate revolves round these three successive ideas of time, intellect, memory. If we seek to examine the external world of people and objects in terms of our own experience of that world, the fact of time is bound, I think, to be an important consideration. This is a truth which the late nineteenth century relearned, particularly in France, and in reaction to a predominantly static picture of reality implicit in much positivist and naturalist thought. In fact in the eighteen nineties, I believe the seeds were being sown, of what has since been called the time obsession of the twentieth century. A new picture of a world characterised by flux, and thus a world not reducible to static intellectual categories, a picture of a world of flux was emerging, particularly clearly I suppose in the writings of Bergson. Bergson held chronological time, time measured and divided into units, as a largely misleading human convention. What we actually experience, he argued, what we actually experience is duration, a continuous flowing and change, what he calls in a rather striking phrase, I think, ‘succession without divisibility’. And of course this is rather like the distinction made by William Goulding in Free Fall. Some of you will remember that he makes a distinction between what he calls and I quote, ‘A dead thing. The straight line from the first hiccough to the last gasp’, and human experience of time, which he describes as, and again I quote, ‘A memory. A sense of shuffle, fold and coil. Of this day nearer than that because more important. Of that event mirroring this. Or those three set apart, exceptional, and out of the straight line altogether’. Now the very title of Proust's novel, À la recherche du temps perdu erm underlines time as a major object of his own exploratory urge. The first and last words of the novel, at fifteen volumes distance from each other, are in fact temporal expressions: ‘longtemps’ and ‘le temps’. erm ‘Longtemps’ and ‘le temps’. And indeed he's preoccupied, I think, very much with the equivalent of Bergson's duration, or, if you like, Goulding's shuffle, fold and coil. This is frequently seen, of course, in the novel. erm A very quick example would be the famous sentence in which Marcel, the narrator, says, ‘An hour is not merely an hour. It is a vessel filled with perfumes, sounds, projects, moods.’ And this distinction between an hour as sixty minutes and an hour as a section of complex human experience, is I suppose the distinction one would make between clock time and what might be called existential time, time as it's humanly experienced. One should perhaps just add at this point that Proust also underlines the very flexible nature of this existential time. At another moment in the novel, the narrator writes: ‘The time which we have at our disposal each day is elastic. The passions we experience expand it, those we inspire in others contract it, and habit fills it.’ It's difficult, I think, just to grasp the implications of a statement like that immediately. I could perhaps put at least part of it in very homely erm and perhaps somewhat banal terms by saying that five minutes spent waiting for the person one loves may seem like five hours, whereas five hours spent with that person may appear a mere five minutes. This insistence on human time as both flexible and, one might say, I suppose, multi-dimensional, has various consequences of course for the structure and the style of À la recherche. Because it rejects the straight line conception of time from the first hiccough to the last gasp, the novel is not built round a clear, sequential story, that might be summarised in a few paragraphs. To read it is not to be entertained by ‘a good yarn’, but to share Proust's recreation of what he believes the nature, the quality, the, almost the texture, as it were, of various kinds of human experience, to be like. Equally obviously, the concern with shuffle, fold and coil, means frequent time shifts, prompted no doubt mainly by association and memory, time shifts between past and present. The elastic narrative that results is one that has been given, I suppose one might say, a narrative that's given complex emotional shaping, rather than straight chronological form. This also means that the narrative tempo of the novel changes on many occasions, and on perhaps most occasions is particularly slow as a tempo. Because like many of his near contemporaries, such, for instance, as Henry James and Virginia Woolf certainly, Proust was concerned to expand certain small but emotionally important blocks of time, to expand them so as to convey an experience fully and in detail, as one would experience it living through it. He sacrificed, he sacrificed the quick movement, the rapid changes of circumstance which a certain kind of reader demands, in order to match his description of thinking and feeling to the actual pace at which these things are experienced in real life. Now turning from the structure very quickly to the style, one has I suppose to underline Proust's insistence that a writer's style must grow organically out of his thought, out of his conception of reality. Many of you will know that in the eighteenth century, Buffon had defined literary style as the order and movement which we impose on our thoughts. Now Proust quite consciously stands this idea on its head, when he writes, and I quote, ‘Style is simply the order and movement which grow out of our thought.’ ‘Style is simply the order and movement which grow out of our thought.’ And consequently, given his own sense of the flowing, indivisible nature of duration, it's appropriate and inevitable on his own principle, that his prose should consist of long, flowing sentences, within often enormous paragraphs, and without division into chapters. Proust is also exceptionally aware I think of a, of the, the, the complex nature of reality, a reality built up in a number of layers, so that his sentences are made even longer than might otherwise have been the case, by the introduction of successive subordinate clauses, in which he seeks to qualify as precisely as possible what he is saying. In which he seeks to introduce a sense of nuance, and in which he sometimes offers three or four possible different explanations of one particular human action, without adjudicating between them. His long sinuous phrases are designed to enclose the different levels and quirks of reality, just as liquid, spilt on a rough pavement, eventually seeps into every crack and cranny. The style of the novel, in fact, like the structure, is used to attempt to convey in words certain sound rhythms as we actually experience them. erm It's not easy to give an example that's brief, because of what I've just said about the style, but I offer one very short passage here, which might or might not convey what I'm attempting to say. It's a passage which reads as follows. In English. In Anglo-Irish. erm ‘There was a small tap on the pane, as though something had struck it, followed by a light, though abundant falling, as though grains of sand were being dropped from a window above, and then a more intense and regular sound, which took on a rhythm and became fluid, resonant, musical, infinite, universal. It was raining.’ It's hardly possible to hear, in translation, the way in which the increasing tempo from the initial individual raindrops on the windowpane, to the final, single sound of the rain striking the window, it's difficult to convey the manner in which this is subtly rendered, I think, by length of phrasing, by using adjectives of increasing syllabic length, and so on, and perhaps just in this one particular case erm I, I might just read the passage, very quickly, in French. erm ‘Un petit coup au carreau, comme si quelque chose l'avait heurté, suivi d'une ample chute lègère, comme de grains de sable, qu'on eût laissés tomber d'une fenêtre audessus, puis la chute, s'étendant, se règlant, adoptant un rhythme, devenant fluide, sonore, musicale, inombrable, universelle. C'était la pluit.’ What I've just been saying about the importance of time and movement in Proust's novel give rise I think to a further question. How do we make direct contact with this mobile, fluid reality? We usually assume that our minds can tell us a lot about what things are really like, but this is an idea which Proust, like Bergson, I may say, erm rather firmly rejects. Bergson went so far as to describe intelligence, or the intellect, as being, and I quote, ‘characterised by a natural inability to comprehend life.’ He argues that reality resembles a cinematographic film, a ceaseless unwinding an moving, but the intellect is so constituted, that it can only provide us with stills, separate and immobile, from that motion film which is reality. Intelligence operates, in fact, through concepts which break up the flow of our experience, classifying it by isolated, lifeless categories, such as cause and effect, beginning and end, subject and object, and so on. On a number of occasions in the novel, the narrator Marcel himself refers to the intellect as a kind of lattice-work, with which we try to capture reality, but through which reality flows and escapes us. He argues that intellectual concepts are fundamentally arbitrary, and says indeed at one point, ‘Ideas formulated by the pure intellect possess logical or potential truth only.’ It's in this way I think that Proust clears the ground in order to claim that the artist, be he writer, painter, musician, can capture reality by means not open to and indeed mostly at variance with the discursive intellect. The artist can do so by imagination, intuition, and the expressive resources of his particular art. And this is why at a late stage in À la recherche, Marcel says that it is a mistake, particularly where the artist is concerned, to accept, and I quote, ‘It's a mistake to accept things as they are in reality, names as they are written, people as photography and psychology give in an unalterable idea of them.’ ‘As a matter of fact,’ he adds, ‘this is not at all what we ordinarily perceive.’ This is a bit difficult, I think, to follow, and what Proust means perhaps becomes clearer in a story which he himself told on more than one occasion about the painter Turner. It seems that Turner showed one of his drawings of Plymouth Sound, with several ships seen against a background of the setting sun, to a ship's officer. The officer promptly criticised the absence of portholes in the drawing. erm Turner replied, ‘If you go up to the top of Mount Edgecombe, and look at the ships against the light, with the setting sun behind them, you will realise that one cannot distinguish the portholes.’ ‘But you know perfectly well that they have portholes,’ retorted the officer. ‘Yes, I know,’ said Turner. ‘But my job is to draw what I see, not what I know.’ ‘My job is to draw what I see, not what I know.’ I suppose this might be taken as perhaps a basic statement of Impressionist doctrine, and we know, incidentally, that the fictional painter in À la recherche, Elstir, who plays a very important role in the novel, perhaps more important than either the fictional writer, Bergotte, or the fictional musician, Vinteuil, that Elstir was modelled in considerable part on Monet. Elstir is described by the narrator as an artist who painted objects, and I quote, ‘not as he knew them to be, but according to the optical illusions of which our first sight of them is composed.’ It's significant, I think, incidentally, that Elstir paints so many seascapes, since the restless flowing movement of reality is I suppose particularly obvious in, exemplified by the sea. And when Marcel visits Elstir's studio, he's fascinated by the way in which the sea is sometimes painted as though it were part of the sky, and sometimes it looks as though the sky is part of the sea. These are paintings in fact in which the line of the horizon is fluid and changing in order to convey an optical illusion which is quite familiar to most of us, I think, by inspection on Brighton Front. Elstir's paintings persuade Marcel of their truth, but it's a truth which is different from the intellectual truth which he first brought to his initial contemplation of those paintings, and Marcel says that in this way, by his art, Elstir frees us from the cramping tyranny of the intellect, by painting, and again I quote, ‘by painting some unusual picture of a familiar object. A picture different from those that we are accustomed to see, unusual and yet true to nature, and for that reason doubly impressive to us, because it startles us, and makes us emerge from our habits.’ This brief explanation of Elstir's originality as an artist might I think be applied equally appropriately to Proust, the novelist. By a combination of Impressionist vision, imagination, a magical mastery of language, Proust uses À la recherche to explore often banal objects, often apparently dull people, often apparently trivial episodes, in such a way that he recreates them with a freshness, erm a power of conviction, that persuade us we're actually seeing them with a privileged insight, or perhaps even seeing them for the first time. Apart from this, Elstir's insistence on painting what his senses register, not what his mind believes, is connected with two features in À la recherche which ought to be mentioned I think however briefly. Firstly, Proust often describes the material world by means of kinetic imagery in the novel. I mean by that that he attributes motion to what we know in our minds to be static, immobile, inanimate objects. For example, as Marcel drives along the winding road to Martinville, he describes the three spires of the church in terms of active movement, the spires exchange places, they come closer together, they draw further apart, they hide behind each other in turn. erm And he describes them in these terms because of course this is how he sees them from different angles while rounding a series of bends on the road, so that in fact he describes the movement which his senses perceive, not the solid immobility to which his intellect testifies. On other occasions in a, in a different though I think related way, erm Proust shows that a phrase such as, for instance , ‘the Church of St. Hilaire’ is a piece of shorthand which the intellect employs to define and to stabilise and to make easy to deal with what is at the sense level a complicated and continually changing reality. He therefore describes the very different appearances of the village church, the Church of St. Hilaire, its very different appearances on a spring day, on a misty autumn morning, on a summer morning, at midday, at five o-clock, in the late afternoon. And this attempt to embrace a constantly shifting reality reminds one of course of the various series of Monet, including of course the famous series of paintings of the west front of Rouen cathedral, seen at different times of the day, and during different seasons of the year. But Proust also regards the world of people as being just as fluid and difficult to grasp, indeed more so, than the world of objects. At the beginning of this talk we found Marcel asking the question, ‘Who am I?’, and personality, whether it be the self or other selves, is seen by Proust as something so changeable and mysterious, that it's virtuously impossible to pin it down. The result is that the main characters in À la Recherche are not by any means all of a piece. They're not, in Proust's own phrase, ‘as photography gives an unalterable idea of them’. They are fascinating not least of all because they possess, even as characters in a novel, an aura of mystery and uncertainty. They have a dimension of being beyond the reach of rational formulation, and they often disconcert us by behaving quite differently in one novel, in one volume, from what the previous volume had led us to expect. This view of people, and the shifting, changing, fluid evanescent reality which is a human being, this sense leads Proust to a particular theory which affects the way in which many of his characters behave towards one another. He sees what is nowadays called, I think, ‘inter-personal relations’ as being largely predicated on the need for people to convince themselves that they have a wholeness and a separateness and an individuality and a defined self, and they do this by trying to define themselves against those other shifting, evanescent erm personalities that they call their friends, enemies, wives, children and so on. So erm because of his emphasis on the shifting, ill-defined nature of the self, Proust sees people as seeking chiefly in others, whether consciously or not, a confirmation of selfhood. And I think it's this, rather than his homosexuality, which largely explains Proust's extremely negative view of love. For example, in the relationship between Marcel and Albertine, which is the chief of several memorable love affairs in the novel, we find Marcel feverishly seeking to understand himself, to define himself, in relation to Albertine. More than physical possession, in which, Proust says, one actually possesses nothing, Marcel seeks from Albertine reassurance concerning his own distinctiveness, his separateness, his individuality, and in Proust's conception of love, therefore, failure is inevitable, because despite the conventionally unifying language of love, what we seek at the most profound level is not contact with another person, but contact with ourselves. And Proust concludes from this that erm when we believe ourselves to be in love, and I quote, ‘the bonds between us and the other person exist in our minds only.’ Well, I move rapidly from these dispiriting erm thoughts erm to say something about the third and last point, the question of memory, because even could the artist recreate, in the way that I've tried to suggest, through an awareness of time, and through a, a rejection of the intellect, even if he could recreate in this way reality present to him in time, how is he to make contact with the past? The attempt to answer the question, ‘Who am I?’ inevitably led Proust, as it leads his fictional hero, to explore and examine his past. In the novel, however, Marcel finds that this exploration mostly leads to a dead end, since the conscious effort of remembering, which is after all an effort of mind and will, is something which at best yields only a lifeless image of the past. Marcel says repeatedly that what he calls ‘voluntary memory’ or ‘intellectual memory’fails to make the past truly live again. However early in the novel he has an experience which makes him aware of a significantly different kind of memory, and this is of course the famous incident in which as a young man he dips a small cake, a madeleine, into a cup of tea. Now, the mere sight of the cake crumbs floating on the tea has no particular effect on him, but suddenly when he actually tastes them he gets a strange feeling of excitement, a feeling almost of elation. For some time he struggles to explain this feeling, and eventually he realises that the taste is of course exactly the taste which he enjoyed as a small boy when his Aunt Léonie gave him a madeline dipped in an infusion. And the fact of having, and also of course of realising that he is having, the same experience as he, and the same sensation, as he'd experienced many years before, this sensation releases a whole set of associated feelings. The past becomes present to him with a total immediacy and a complete conviction which he says intellectual memory could never achieve. Proust says that rather like those thin, flat pieces of coloured paper called Japanese flowers, which expand and become indeed three-dimensional when placed in water, similarly the taste of the madeleine brings back, not an abstract intellectual idea of the past, but the authentic sensation of his experiences as a small boy in the houses and the streets and the gardens of Combray. This type of remembering, which comes unbidden, through the sense of taste or touch or smell, is what Marcel of course calls ‘involuntary’ or ‘affective memory’, and in contrast to intellectual memory it recaptures past experience in its lived immediacy. This privileged memory, spontaneously derived from sense association, is something of course that other writers, such as Châteaubriand, Nerval, Baudelaire, had pointed to before Proust. Nevertheless, if his discovery is less original than he claimed, he rightly says that his novel analyses the mechanism of involuntary memory in unique detail. However, Proust's real originality, on this point, springs from the fact that he gave to the phenomenon of involuntary memory an aesthetic application. He found in its nature the means by which he could impart freshness, immediacy, spontaneity, imagination to his own vision as a writer. In fact, eventually, the phenomenon, if you like the psychological phenomenon, of involuntary memory, become the creative principle of À la recherche. It is the mystery which Marcel explores throughout the course of the novel, the intuition which he finally learns to understand and use, the revelation, ultimately, the revelation of his distinctive vocation as an artist. I think it explains in large measure why as we read the novel we are frequently struck by its quite special ring of truth, by its memorable rendering of the physical world, by a profound insight into human experience. Indeed with involuntary memory as the creative principle, one might almost dare to say that the opposition between poetry and the analytical is removed, because perhaps one of Proust's greatest achievements as a novelist is the way in which he reveals poetry and imaginative perception as the most appropriate and authentic means by which our human experience can be both understood and recreated for ourselves and for others. Now, I know many would not agree with this. erm I take refuge in the fact that this is what Proust says, and I report, erm I think this amounts to claiming that the artist can give us privileged insight into life. That I do believe. erm That art possesses some form of saving truth, and this is certainly Proust's belief. François Mauriac quite rightly observed, I think, that God is terribly absent from À la recherche. And indeed, it's a novel which offers not salvation through erm a recognisable religion, but rather something like salvation through art. Because Proust saw involuntary memory, which after all causes the past to coalesce with the present, he saw involuntary memory as a means of abolishing time, however provisionally, however briefly, and in this way the artist takes on a God-like role, since through his art he can free the individual from time, and to this extent confer immortality on that individual. In the final volume, Proust speaks of involuntary memory as being used in art, being used in such a way that, and I quote, ‘this moment, freed from the bondage of time, recreates within us the sensation of a self freed from the bondage of time.’ I'm conscious of having talked about Proust's novel in somewhat forbiddingly abstract terms, in the sense that I choose to talk about time, intellect, memory. I've said little about the rich descriptive skill, the human insight with which he leads the reader through humorous happenings, tragic episodes, through the follies of social manoeuvring and the deceptions of love, through a portrait gallery of adolescent girls, aging homosexuals, upstart socialites, and solidly sensible servants, to an eventual understanding of his, Marcel's, artistic vocation. Yet Proust insisted, himself, in a letter to Gide, that he was incapable of narrating anything in which he was not primarily seeking to grasp a general truth. And since I believe that criticism cannot be a substitute for the reading of the novel, I've been content to sketch some of the general truths which I think lie behind it, and a familiarity with which would I think help to illuminate an eventual reading of À la recherche du temps perdu. These general truths culminate in a final illumination, an ultimate discovery, brought back by Proust from his exploration of time, intellect, memory, and this discovery, this final illumination, is I think his assertion that there exists an extra-temporal and infinitely potent reality which only great art can express. Thank you. Today, Tony McCaffery talks about some aspects of chemistry, becoming a chemistry student, and the importance of research in maintaining good chemistry teaching. But first, Jenny Payne gives us her view of the University from the viewpoint of the Information Office. If you should ever telephone the University, there's a pretty fair chance that you'll be put through to Jenny. But does she know all the answers? Well, we do our best or try to pass people on to other people who would know the answer. We get really weird things at times. What sort of weird things can you think of? Well, oddities. We've had somebody ringing up for their crossword puzzle, can we fill in the clue to that? Did you manage to fill in the clue? I'm not sure that we could, actually. My goodness. Well, that's very bad, or could you pass them on to somebody that could, could do the crossword? Well, you have to be terribly diplomatic. I don't imagine that erm somebody would be, like to be interrupted in the middle of lecture to answer somebody's crossword puzzles, you have to be diplomatic about things like that. It's not part of the University's public service. We don't see it quite as part of our role, no. Right. So what other things happen in your Information Office? Well, we get the usual sort of things you would expect, about fact and figures about the University itself. We provide a service not only for the six thousand odd people that are on the campus Six thousand odd people! That's a heck of a lot of people. Oh, it is. They're not all students, presumably. No, we've got about four thousand five hundred students. Yes. And the rest are lecturers and other staff, and then various other units are on campus, and also now we have some industry people on campus. We have two high technology companies mhm Which have recently come onto the campus, and they work with some of our scientists here . Oh, I see. Are they, are they part of the University, or are they entirely separate from the University? No, they're, they're separate. They have an arrangement with the University and they have their own buildings, and they collaborate with the people here, mostly in Engineering. So it's a bit like a science park at It is. at the University. We haven't actually called it a science park but it's something on that line, yes. mhm And, and you had to provide information about them, apart from everything else. Oh yes, and we deal with the press a lot of course, but you, as I say you do get calls from anybody, about anything. It can be about other universities. erm Brighton generally, Sussex, anything anybody thinks they don't know and then they think the University would know, and they just ring us up, which I suppose somebody on the campus will know, but you don't always, can't be able to find them always, so it's quite difficult. Well, every day a different challenge mhm That's right. It certainly sounds like that. Tell me, what are the changes that have taken place in the University over the past few years? We don't hear so much about student problems these days. No. A few years back there was quite a lot of trouble. It was really only a very small group of students involved, but they got a lot of publicity and I think over the last few years it's changed quite a lot. Students seem much more inclined to knuckle down to the work and not get involved in quite such dramatic protests as they were before. Do you think there's any particular reason for this? Are they worried about getting jobs, or Oh, I'm sure it's partly that, yes, yes. So you think the students are quieter and, and working harder now than they used to. Oh, I think the majority always have worked hard, but they, some of them became quite flamboyant and extravagant in their gestures about what they, how they wanted to change things, and I think nowadays they, perhaps sadly, really, they feel they, they can't so they just knuckle down to it all. Oh, it sounds to me as if you miss the days when there was a bit more action on, Oh, I wouldn't say that . on the campus. All right, I won't quote you. Don't listen, anyone, to what she's saying, she denies it. How about the, the cuts? I mean we're all worried in, in the world about cuts in various areas and the education area has its share of the cuts, we know the teachers are worried about their salaries and what's going on in the schools, and even we hear from the University from time to time that they, things aren't as they used to be. How are the cuts affecting the University? Oh, in many ways. There's been something like twenty per cent cut over the last few years and erm some faculty members have taken early retirement and left, so a lot of subjects have lost some of their most able people. erm There's not much opportunity for job advancement, there are fewer opportunities to rise up the scale and become Readers or Professors and so on. In other areas there have been cutbacks. erm There are fewer administrative staff to deal with, really, more problems, in a way, because though we have fewer students than we did before, there's still more work involved and we can't, we don't, we no longer have a planning period. Once upon a time you used to have a five year planning period, and that has now disappeared, so we live hand to mouth, and the Finance Officer manages marvellously in juggling things round, but one can no longer plan as one used to, and therefore it's rather sad really, because people no longer have the chance to develop things as they would wish to. But how's it left the University? erm Are people terribly depressed? Is, is the place a bad place now because it can't Oh, no, no afford to run properly? It's not a bad place, but erm I think in common with a lot of other universities, well, all universities, some of the excitement, enthusiasm has gone, because people no longer have the chance to do what they would want to do. Oh, dear. It sound a little bit depressing. Still, you've got a Silver Jubilee Year this year. Oh, yes, I'm looking forward to that very much, yes. And you're going to celebrate what's left? Oh, yes! And celebrate a prosperous future, one hopes. Oh, yes, I'm sure it will be. Well, let's hope it is for, for you and all your colleagues and of course all the students, Jenny Payne. Thank you. Chemistry, to many of us, is a little bit like cookery. Take a pinch of this and a pinch of that, stir well under a slow heat, and see what happens. But in reality, modern chemistry is a much more precise science, as Tony McCaffery, Dean of the School of Molecular Sciences, would be the first to point out. Are there many students studying science at Sussex, and in particular, is Chemistry a popular subject? Well, yes, there are quite a few. There's a large number of undergraduates that's studying for the B S C degree, and a very substantial number of postgraduate students studying for the Masters degree or the Doctor of Philosophy. So Sussex is a university with quite a high status in terms of science. In terms of research it has a very high status indeed, and is one of the leading erm scientific research centres in the country. erm For undergraduate teaching it also has a very high reputation for innovation and for creative teaching. Now, there's a lot of controversy sometimes about getting into universities, and I want to ask you, is it very difficult to get into a university these days? Well, course, erm like most things you have to work at it. You can't just walk in off the street and say ‘I want to study a degree in neurophysiology or erm or chemistry even.’ You must prepare yourself for it in the erm in the time-honoured way, which is to erm acquire A-levels or erm an Open University qualification or a Higher National Certificate or something of that kind. Once that's accepted, then it's relatively straightforward. Is it particularly difficult to get in as a chemist, for example? Well Chemistry of course is, is traditionally much easier in many ways than English or some other subjects, and this reflects the esteem held amongst schoolteachers and students of the sciences as opposed to the arts. erm By comparison in A-level grades it's easier to get in at Sussex in Chemistry than it is in English. I see. Are you sure you've got that the right way round? It sounds to me as if there are too many people that want to get into Sussex in English, and not so many that wanting to get Chemistry. Well, that's quite right. The erm number of applicants for English is very high indeed. Chemistry it's not as high as we would like, and certainly not as high as erm our status in research erm would suggest erm and we feel that the perhaps there's some image-building still to be done in this field. I see. One of the things that a lot of people are concerned about these days is, is the future of higher education. There are lots of screams coming from universities about them being hard done by, being cut back financially and so on so forth. How do you see the future of higher education? Well I, I take the implicit point that erm we're all suffering cuts throughout the country, therefore why shouldn't higher education suffer similar cuts, but of course, higher education is in a different category to erm many other fields that the government pays for and sponsors, in that higher education is investment in the future, and therefore, if Britain is to survive erm as a, a nation of erm of some economic standing, is to well in the national, in the international stakes, then we must be innovative, we must create new things, and we must erm in, in that, to do that we must invest very strongly in higher education. And you would couple higher education in the terms of, in the sense of teaching students, with doing research in educational institutions presumably? I think that's an absolutely essential part of a higher education institution such as a university. Without some knowledge of research it's very hard to keep your teaching fresh and lively and interesting and relevant, and the other factor is of course that research contributes to the long-term economic base of the country. mhm I find that very interesting, because I, I suspect many members of the general public think of universities where primarily students are taught. They don't think of them as places where research goes on. But you were telling me that there's a lot of research that goes on in the universities. Oh indeed there is, yes. I mean what sort of, take a, take a university teacher, a university don, for example. What percentage of their time would they spend actually on doing research as opposed to teaching? Well this varies from individual to individual, but there are individuals who probably spend erm seventy per cent of their time on research, erm twenty per cent on teaching, and ten per cent on playing tennis. But there are erm others who, for whom teaching is the major aspect and the major important role that they perceive for themselves erm but there is always a balance and on balance, taken over the whole system, I should think that most people spend fifty or sixty per cent of their time on research. erm Teaching is erm an important function, but not erm the only function of a university teacher. mhm Well that's a lot of time to spend. And obviously it, it erm underlines your comment that research is very important. You said that it was important because of the national economy. In what sense do you mean that? Well. erm In a wide range of senses, really. First of all there are people in universities who are inventing things which will be used next year or the year after or the year after that. For example there are people who are developing new plastics on industrial contracts erm within a department with our school. There are others who are doing research which might lead to erm developments in the communications industry in twenty years from now, or in ten years from now. erm It's often long-range, strategic research which people are doing which erm it will contribute in ten or twenty years' time, provided that industry picks it up appropriately. But there are other cases where research is being done which will be used next year. Could you give me an example of that? Yes, I certainly could. In our Polymer Research Group, there are erm people doing research on novel plastics for erm credit cards, for additives to plastics which you use for credit cards, to give bank cards and credit cards a longer lifetime. There are others who are working on erm ways in which banknotes can be, the lifetime of banknotes and library books erm in the paper industry can be erm lengthened, so that our erm library books will last longer. erm These sound very very interesting projects, and they're all taking place at Sussex? Those I mentioned are taking place currently at Sussex, yes. Yes. Lastly, do you think we as a country spend enough money on research? Well, we, we do spend a very substantial fraction of our gross national, national product on research. However, a major fraction of that goes into military research. erm The fraction going into civil research, of this speculative kind, or of a development kind, is very small compared to all the countries of Western Europe. erm It's smaller even than Italy and erm and almost as low as Greece. So I, I believe we don't spend anywhere near as much as we should do. But in spite of not having enough money, Sussex is still active and perhaps in the forefront of the scientific research. Yes, because we get a larger than average slice of what is available. And what's your particular line? My own line is studying the effect of lasers on chemical reactions to see if lasers can be used to stimulate or generate new novel types of chemical process. And can they? erm There are indications that in perhaps twenty years' time that there might be some novel applications of lasers. It's too early yet to say whether erm it will revolutionise the chemical industry. Well, Tony McCaffery, good luck for the next twenty years. Join us next And welcome to another programme in our series of Ideas in Action. One of the features that worry people about modern society is the fear that it is becoming more violent. Scarcely a day passes without us reading in the newspapers or seeing on television assaults, batteries, violent acts of all kinds. Richard Clutterbuck is a lecturer in Law in our School of Social Sciences at the University, and he's taken a particular interest into legal aspects of violence in society. Now, violence is not exactly a new phenomenon in society, is it? It's been around a long time, as they say? Yes, I think that's true, but at the same time there is a debate going on as to whether in fact there's more violence now than there used to be, some people say there is more violence, other people say that, that erm that's not the case. Violence appears in many shapes and forms in society. Violence may be the erm scenes that we've been witnessing of terrorism lately, or it may simply be a boxing match, or a rugby match, or something like that. So we need to be clear as to what we define as violence, and how we see violence in society. I would like to say that, that the level of violence has been fairly static, but at the same time we are able to tolerate certain levels of violence. We all accept, for example, pushing and jostling on the Underground. We all accept the physical free-for-all which passes for the January sales. I suppose you, you would say that violence is what is socially acceptable in a given context. You mentioned boxing and that's a sort of legitimate violence which takes place in a limited area and which people watch because presumably they enjoy it, but don't wish to particularly partake in themselves, and whereas it's all right for people to punch each other 's heads in the boxing ring, they would object to people coming outside the boxing ring and punching the spectators' heads. I think that's right. I think that our attitudes towards violence do change. We were willing to accept bare knuckle fights a hundred and fifty years ago, we're unwilling to accept them today. Today within the margins of acceptability we find professional boxing. It's being erm boxing as a sport is being erm eradicated in schools, and it may be that in, in the future, maybe the none too distant future that boxing ceases to be acceptable. We still accept physical contact games like rugby. Let's move on to perhaps some of the legal aspects and some of the areas where we are actually concerned about violence at the moment. In the streets, for example, how can you actually decide whether a violent act has taken place or not? It seems to me that it must be a very fine line must be drawn a violent act and a non-violent act. The, the area of law here is bedevilled by many layers of discretion. erm For example if erm two people are walking down the street and there's a certain amount of jostling, then the victim, if he is a victim, may well consider that it's not violent, or that it's nothing out of the ordinary, or that it's something which is acceptable, and then not take the matter any farther. If the victim reports it to a police officer, the police officer has an element of discretion whether to take the matter any farther, whether to give a warning, whether to get involved or not. Sometimes actually bringing in the agencies of the law may be like pouring oil on a fire rather than pouring water on a fire. And then beyond that there are the layers of discretion at the prosecution stage and in the court. It seems to me that we have not a very consistent to this. If, if I walked up to a policeman in the street and gave him a little shove, the chances are he would arrest me, unless it was done in a totally friendly way. On the other hand, if I was on a picket line or somewhere, I could give him a pretty hard old shove without pulled in, I would imagine. erm That may well be the caricature picture. I wouldn't like to go that far myself. Certainly discretion is exercised by human beings, and those human beings are subject to all the, the frailties of humanity, and in many situations the policeman is in a tense but essentially human situation, where he has to make snap decisions on the spot. And those snap decisions may be influenced as much by his surroundings and the circumstances in which he finds himself, as by some rational academic view of what is actually going on. Isn't the situation really, erm taking it erm group violence, if I could put it that way, isn't it a question really checks and balances. In a sense the whole point of making a group protest, for example, is that you can actually display some strong feelings or other, and isn't the, the point achieving a balance between some acceptable way of maybe even physically showing your disapproval of something and something which goes over the boundaries, actually ends up with damage being done to people or property? Sure. Group violence has two elements which are a little worrying. One is that the, the presence of a large number of people can cause intimidation, can cause the apprehension of violence. That is worrying to people. That is one of the things about mass pickets and mass demonstrations which people do find worrying. And large numbers can physically cause severe damage which could not be caused by a smaller number of people. I suppose the, the example of that is where a house wall was pushed in by the, the mass that was thronging outside the Brunwick gates. I don't think there was any erm suggestion that that was a preconceived plan, it just happened because there were thousands of people in a space which was patently insufficient for that number of people. The other element of group violence is of course, if there are a group of people throwing bricks at the police, or chanting or swearing at people wanting to go to work from a picket line, the law, the criminal law is designed to prove guilt against an individual for an individual's conduct according to the preordained laws, whether they be statute law or common law. And the question is, is the this individual guilty of this particular act and does this particular act contravene the law? Where you have a group of people and a brick comes out of the group and lands on a policeman's head, then it's very difficult for the law to attach individual and specific guilt to a particular individual. This is one of the problems under which the law labours, because of course, if we didn't accept that it's individual guilt that counts, and we looked to group guilt, then that in itself is an infringement of civil liberties and human rights, you are being judged not according to your acts but according to the acts of others erm with whom you happened to associate, even though your conduct may not in itself be reprehensible. To what extent does the law deal with events which have taken place, and to what extent does the law deal with events which might take place? In other word prevention as opposed to dealing with events which have already gone past? Yes. In the old films erm the saying was from one conduct to another, ‘Don't do the crime if you can't do the time.’ I think in terms of public order and violence on the streets, then it's to court disaster to wait until the disruption actually happens. The law does provide a battery of preventative powers available to the police and others, after all, every member of the public, every citizen has a duty to erm prevent a breach of the peace occurring in his presence. So it's not only a duty that, that's laid on the police. But these preventative powers do exist, because once violence occurs on the streets, once there has been a breakdown of public order, then the damage has been done. Violence in society, I think, is rather like a fire. From the moment of its inception, the fire causes damage. As soon as any outbreak of violence, however mild, occurs in society, then damage is done, if it's only to the social fabric of society, because one or two people cannot go about their business, cannot go about their pleasure, in the way in which they would wish to. But the law normally deals with events which have taken place. The criminal law is normally concerned with things which have occurred. A problem here is the function of the law. erm What do we see the function of any particular area of law or in particular any area of the criminal law? One function is to, to visit retribution or sanctions upon people who have broken the law. Well that's okay for some crimes. erm But in terms of public order crimes, it may well be that this sort of view does not act as a preventative to erm prevent the same thing happening again. After all, many groups which take to the streets are looking for publicity. And when you look at the price of hiring thirty seconds of advertisement time on television and organising a mass demonstration with some gratuitous violence which will get thirty seconds in a T V news broadcast, erm then I think the cost-efficiency graph shows that the erm violent demonstration is the better way, in those terms. The old erm violence in society was dealt with largely with the Public Order Act of nineteen thirty-six, but recently we've had introduced a new Act through Parliament. How does the new Act differ from the old one? In some ways the new Act is something which has provoked a lot of discussion. I think that the bill which we first saw may well not be the bill that is eventually produced at the end of the day. But it looks likely that we will get a new statutory regime relating to public order offences. Some of the major points erm of the old Public Order Act are reintroduced in the new Act. For example, the controls in the old Public Order Act Section Three over processions are reintroduced. There is a new requirement that people organising demonstrations and processions in the streets should tell the police at least a week in advance, which is a good thing. But now these controls over processions have been erm extended to cover static large meetings, and erm I would think that at the back of the draftsman's mind was the spectre of mass pickets, things like that. The earlier part of the bill as it's, in its current form, erm puts on a statutory basis several of the old common law offences, such as riot, erm affray, unlawful assembly. These were an amorphous group of crimes. erm They have had periods when they were prosecuted, then they dropped out of fashion, now they have recently been revived over the last twenty years by prosecutors. All through this they've cried out for a modern definition. In parts we have been given that modern definition. This should make life a little easier for the prosecutor, but let's not forget that the prosecutor only deals in terms of the crimes, with violence that has occurred, and the violence that has occurred is of course something which has gone wrong in society. So the Act is not in itself going to do anything to prevent violence actually occurring. Can you define the crime more precisely? It seems to me it's almost impossible to do so, because what is threatening and abusive in one situation wouldn't be in another. Sure. There is the problem of context, and the problem of context is dealt with at present by discretion. erm In many cases where Section Five is invoked, erm the only witness is the police officer erm on the spot, and the court case is simply a slanging match between the policeman who says ‘This was said,’ and the individual who says, ‘No, I didn't say it, someone else did,’or occasionally somebody will argue, ‘No, that wasn't threatening, it wasn't abusive, it wasn't insulting.’ The issue of whereby a breach of the peace is likely to be occasioned is also a question of judgement, and it would be somewhat unusual for a court erm perhaps erm months later to go against the policeman's view, a view formed in the heat of the moment, where he had a firsthand erm taste of what was going on. Lastly, do you think the new laws, the new erm Act is going to be an improvement? Will it help deal with violence in society? I'm not sure that we should talk in terms of any laws helping us to prevent violence in society. It may well be that if you set the penalties so high, and if you can have a hundred per cent detection, then there may well be a deterrent element in these crimes, but basically the law is clearing up a mess, and the mess has occurred, and then the law comes along and does the best it can. erm The police have often described themselves as erm in the following way, that society throws its problems into the dustbin and asks the policeman to sit on the lid. Well, erm perhaps extending that, it's not just the policeman but it's the law and the law enforcement agencies that are sitting on the lid of violence here. The trick is to prevent violence occurring in the first place. erm The new Public Order Act may have some deterrent elements, but the tensions which provoke violence will probably be sufficiently great to override the deterrent elements in this Act. Richard Clutterbuck, thank you very much for talking to us. In last week's programme I talked to Steven Medcalfe about novels, and asked him what makes a good read. Steven suggested Spenser and Shakespeare, with perhaps Scott and Hardy, and if I insisted on an up-to-date author, William Goulding. Later, and as a contrast, I talked to John Whitley, who's Dean of the School of English and American studies, because I know that he's an enthusiast and an expert on the modern detective story. I started by asking John whether he was a Raymond Chandler fan. I have a, a considerable interest in popular fiction, though I should add perhaps that Steven Medcalfe is very interested in detective stories, too. I, my interest lies particularly I think in the kind of erm popular fiction written in America between the wars, though it has to some extent carried on since World War Two. This fiction has various names: ‘private eye fiction’, ‘hardboiled fiction’ which is a way of describing its style, and erm I have been interested in this for some time, partly trying to assess the reasons why such fiction occurred in America as a complete breakaway from the old kind of detective fiction which we all know about, the country house murder, why erm the figure of the private detective becomes so important in this kind of fiction between the wars, and what the relationship of this sort of fiction is to not merely other kinds of American fiction during that period but to more abiding American themes, particularly erm themes of individualism and toughness. I have found that erm it seems basically to be a very pessimistic kind of fiction, more pessimistic than people have often given it credit for, largely because they tend to see, for example in Dashiell Hammett, who's the author I'm most interested in from this period, erm a precursor of a lot of heroes, private eyes, who were said to have a very kind of steely moral integrity, which they balance against a general corruption in the world outside, and it does seem to me that in fact with Hammett the detective mirrors the corruption of that world as much as he stands against it, so that it does seem to me rather pessimistic. I would add that erm that is of course not my only interest erm but some of my other interests are very much related to it. I am interested in much earlier American fiction, say in the period between seventeen eighty and eighteen thirty. You mentioned Scott a moment ago, and Scott is certainly a profound influence on American fiction in the erm earlier part of the nineteenth century. I'm interested in the romantic novel, and erm in the way in which certain kinds of English fiction affect American models in this period, which continues in a way my interest in popular fiction, because the American fiction really takes as its model in the late eighteenth century, the early nineteenth century, not in fact so much the mainstream British fiction of the eighteenth century, we think of Defoe or Fielding or Richardson or Smollett, these don't provide very suitable models for American writers during that period because they're all models based on the assumption of a fixed kind of society. I then asked John whether in recent years America was producing good literature, and what he thought of popular authors such as James Michener. Well, having talked about my interest in, in popular literature I suppose I should begin by saying I don't much like the distinction between good literature and pulp literature but, on the other hand, I do accept that it has a function. I have no interest myself in Michener or a lot of the writers of very long sagas erm who have made a great deal of money out of it. I asked John what are modern American writers he would regard as outstanding. I had in mind Vladimir Nabokov, if you're willing to consider him as an American writer, John Barth, Richard Brortigan, Robert Coover. erm As I say they're all writers who might come under the heading of, of postmodern meta-fiction writers who do not take for granted that fiction has a, a direct and clearly understandable relationship with society so that it can erm give you a very clear picture of society at a given moment, which was generally the case in the, with British fiction in the nineteenth century. They assume that erm it's very difficult to talk about reality, that reality means different things to different people, that people create in many ways their own reality, and they're interested in the process therefore of fiction-making, they're interested in erm how people create their own fictions, so that it becomes almost an endless series of mirrors, novelists writing novels about novelists writing novels and so on. This isn't of course the only kind of fiction in America in this period. Part of the richness naturally of American fiction is erm that there are so many writers with so many different backgrounds, so many different ethnic backgrounds. erm The Jewish novelist in America of course has become much more influential since the Second World War, particularly Saul Bellow, who won a Nobel Prize, erm Philip Roth, erm Bernard Malamud. Black novelists, of course, have become quite prominent. One of the greatest novels, I think, in America since the Second World War is by a black novelist, Ralph Ellison's Invisible Man erm and of course Baldwin comes to mind, but there are many others. erm The more recent developments in erm women's fiction, feminist fiction, erm the lead has come there certainly from America so that not only do you have leading erm women novelists but you have leading women black novelists and black women novelists and this erm of course may very well come, and I hope it does, in this country, but it hasn't come at the moment. erm Novelists in this country, it seems to me, are drawn from a much narrower social band, and you cannot have this ethnic richness, this melting pot richness, erm that American fiction has very clearly demonstrated I think since the Second World War. Perhaps we could conclude by returning to the subject we started with, and that's the detective story. mhm Why do you find detective stories so interesting? Well, I think I would emphasise that it is this particular kind of detective story that I find interesting. I have always liked to read the Golden Age detective stories, if you like, the country house murder mysteries, but I would have to admit that reading those is to some extent desire for stasis, a desire erm for a particularly safe kind of world, where everything works out in the end, because that's usually what happens, and so these days I tend only to take very small doses of that particular medicine. But the private eye, hardboiled fiction I think has much more to do with erm American themes, with difficulties of erm establishing identity in American society, with erm It seems to be a much more pliable instrument. It can deal erm with much more difficult and dangerous things than the classic detective novel in England. If I take one example as more updated version of Hammett and Chandler, one of the most successful writers I think in financial terms in America since the Second World War has been a man called Kenneth Miller, who writes under the name of Ross Macdonald, and has been turning out for, oh, the best part of thirty years now, novels about a Californian private eye called Lou Archer. A couple of them have been turned into erm movies with, with Paul Newman. And Archer is a detective who is a very much more human detective than Sherlock Holmes or Miss Marple or any of that line. He is a combination detective, father-confessor, erm psychologist, and the books, although they are somewhat repetitive if you were to read them one after the other, through quite a number, they nonetheless deal I think with very profound erm and difficult themes in American culture. They deal very much with the breakup of the family. The figure of the lost youth, the lost child is very prominent erm in those books, there is partly an autobiographical element. He's very interested in problems of ecology. Living in California he would be, but I mean one of his books is about, erm or has, as one very important element, a forest fire. Another has an oil slick off the Californian coast, and the oil slick is not introduced in that novel purely for local interest, local colour, but is in fact a fundamental part of the themes of the novel, because the murders, the crimes involved take place within the family of the, the people who are oil millionaires, so that the oil slick is made to be an example of moral corruption in Californian society. Now this use of a formula, making the, the formula as pliable as possible to take in all these different themes, seems to me very interesting, because it seems to me a point at which popular literature, erm or the so-called easy dividing line between popular literature and high art, becomes very difficult to judge, very fuzzy. I think generally in the erm classic detective story that is almost impossible to achieve. erm If you take a novel like Dorothy Sayers' Gaudy Night, which is offered as an example of a classic detective story which really is also a novel about academic life, it's a love story, I think as a love story and as a novel of academic life it's in many ways very good indeed, but I think as a detective story it's completely uninteresting you know because one part has to fade in order that the, the other should come into focus. And I think that the, just giving the example of Ross Macdonald, that this other kind of popular literature manages to avoid that. So basically you, you find them interesting because that you feel that they are connected in Oh to society in a real sense and Oh yes. reflect a lot that's going on in society. Yes indeed. Well, thank you very much, John. Thank you. Governments may rise or fall, but it seems that the Civil Service goes on forever. Are they faceless heartless bureaucrats, or are they overworked caring administrators? People's opinions vary, but one thing is clear: the Government is influenced by the views of the top civil servants, and in a very practical sense, it is the Civil Service that actually runs this country. But is the situation different elsewhere? Anne Stevens is an expert on public administration, and specialises in French affairs. I recently asked her whether the French civil service differed from their British counterparts. Many people think they are. They have a very much more selective and elitist system at the top. They have a very fiercely competitive system, and some people say that you have to start preparing for this at nursery school erm and it's a question of going to the right schools, going to the right training colleges, though it's not so much a question of going to university, although you do have to have a university degree in most cases, but they have special training establishments with a tough competition to get into it, and as a result of this the people who come out are very highly selected, and think of themselves as being very professional, very competent, they have a great deal more self confidence, in some ways, than our British civil servants do. And every so often erm the British look at this with a rather interested eye, and you'll find that erm Parliamentary committees erm there was one on the British Civil Service about two years, three years ago, nineteen seventy-seven, they went over to France to have a look at how the French did this to see if they could learn anything from the French experience, but in fact it's very difficult to transport somebody else's experience, lock, stock and barrel, into the British situation, and they quite sensibly concluded this wouldn't be a good idea. Is there the same relationship between ministers in the Government, in France, and their civil servants, as there is in Britain? Do you have an amateur minister, as it were, backed up by a, a more professional administrative civil servant? In some senses you do, erm but there are important differences. One of the important differences is that in France you get far more cases of ministers who have been civil servants in their previous existence. This is true of the present President, President Giscard, for example. He went through the selection and training process that I am talking about. He was trained at the École Nationale d'Administration, which is the national administration training school, and in fact at the École Polytechnique as well, which is, so he was one of the few people who went through both the elite training establishments, and he served as a civil servant for a while before turning to political life and getting elected as a Member of Parliament. And it's much more usual for that kind of thing to happen, so that you are more likely to get a, a minister who has a very good idea about how erm the civil service functions because he's been part of it. There are all sorts of reasons why this is true. erm One of the reasons is that, unlike the British situation, you don't have to resign if you stand for election as a Member of Parliament in France. You can stand, and if you're not elected you simply go back to your old job. Now this would be unthinkable in Britain, because we have a much stronger tradition of political neutrality for our civil servants. Our civil servants aren't supposed to display their political erm points of view. In France there seems to be a separation. It's not felt that your private life in terms of your political opinions will necessarily impinge on your public life, and, and to deprive somebody of the right to express their opinions in public would be regarded as an infringement of his civil liberties, which would be unthinkable in a republican erm situation. Is there a difference in the relationship between Parliament and the Government in France compared with Britain? Oh yes! Quite a noticeable difference. It's a result of the Constitution of France, which was drawn up in nineteen fifty-eight, when General de Gaulle came to power, and the Constitution was very concerned to produce a separation between the legislative, that's the law-making, part of the government, and the executive, that's the part which was seen as carrying out the laws. And so they made two provisions which make the situation rather different. One of them was to actually limit the amount of things that Parliament can pass laws about. In Britain we have this very well-established doctrine that Parliament is sovereign. Parliament can do what it likes. It, so the theory goes, it can repeal laws, it can pass laws, in any field. In France that isn't so. There's an article of the Constitution which lays down the fields with which Parliament may concern itself. Obviously these are the most important fields, erm principles of taxation, for example, or the creation of new criminal offences. Both of those require a parliamentary laws. But anything outside that is a matter for governmental regulation, and not for parliamentary laws. So that's one big difference in the relationship between Parliament and Government. The other big difference is that ministers can't be Members of Parliament. When you go to cast a vote in France, your ballot paper has two names on it, the name of the candidate for, or at least it has for each party or for each candidate two names. The name of the candidate who is standing for election, and the name of his replacement, who will replace him if he becomes ineligible to be a Member of Parliament. And you vote for the pair of them. And if then your Member of Parliament is chosen to be a member of the Government, he resigns his seat in Parliament. He has a month to decide whether he's going to stay as a Member of Parliament and not be a member of the Government, or whether he's going to be a member of the Government and resign his parliamentary seat. And if he decides to be a member of the Government he resigns his parliamentary seat and his replacement takes over without the need for a by-election. Do you think the fact that the French erm constitution and the French administration is so different from the British administration, this leads to some of the erm occasional tangles and differences of views we have between the British and French? Oh, yes, I'm certain it does. It isn't at all easy erm for people who have been accustomed to working in one system really to appreciate erm the nuances, the differences, the pressures on another system. And of course this can, can lead to misunderstandings, erm to difficulties, to different kinds of pressures. One of the interesting things that I do is go every so often and talk to groups of British civil servants who are going to spend some of them a week some of them up to six weeks on an exchange visit erm with the French civil service, in an attempt to learn a certain amount erm about how the system works, both so that they will be able to understand more easily when it comes to joint erm ventures, joint matters, joint policies, what the other side is doing and the pressures within which it's operating, and also so that sometimes they may be able to learn things, and pick up useful tips and hints about the way to handle a particular problem. And it's always very interesting, I find, to go and talk to these groups of people erm and see the way that questions are put, which reflect a British experience, which are not the questions which a French civil servant would necessarily put, because his experience is different. Are there any aspects of the French administration you think are, that are better than the British approach? I think one of the things which the French have learnt to do is, indeed, to integrate specialists, whether they're scientists, whether they're economists, erm and their generalists, that's to say the people who have basically a legal, economic, administrative background, to integrate them within the administrative hierarchy in a much better way than we have, erm and this is erm something which does I think make it easier sometimes to provide advice that really is erm clued up about the technical aspects of something. Another, and that's a, it's a very much smaller point, but I think it's not unimportant thing, that I would like to see the British Civil Service emulating, is the amount of time and attention that the French give to training their young civil servants in foreign languages. It's very unusual to find a senior civil servant in France who can't speak either good English or good German or both, and it does make communications a lot easier. I know that some British civil servants are making considerable efforts to improve erm in these terms but erm I think we've still got a long way to go in appreciating the importance of at least being able to understand somebody else's language, erm even if you can't always erm communicate in it as well as you can in your own. I certainly respond to what you were saying about having trained people in ministries. I was talking to a civil servant in the Ministry of erm Energy the other day, and he said that he reckoned out of several hundred people working there there were about fifteen people who had a scientific or engineering background, and therefore were able to talk with some degree of expertise perhaps and certainly knowledge about the matters that they were discussing. The rest were, came from all sorts of different backgrounds. The Civil Service in Britain has always this feeling that the problem with a specialist is that he may get too committed to his specialism. He may not be able to see the political and general interest wood for the specialist trees, and there is a sense in which there are obviously dangers of that kind erm and the generalist has always taken the view that it's for the specialist to be able to explain his problems in language which, after all, politicians who take the final decisions will have to be able to understand. And there is some sense in this. I'm not sure it's a bad thing for a specialist to have to be able to explain his problems in terms which erm and intelligent and reasonably informed layman can understand, but erm I think perhaps in Britain we go too far erm in not integrating the two and putting them together and erm this is somewhere where the French in many cases have got the balance a bit better. I think that's really as far as I would want to go. Anne, we have talked about France mainly, and I know that's your, your major interest erm but how do the other European countries compare with France, Germany, for example, perhaps the others? Are they rather similar more similar to France in administration than Britain? In some respects they do have some characteristics that are similar to the French ones. In Germany, for example, there's nothing like the division between Parliament and Government that I was speaking of erm as far as France was concerned, erm nor is there to quite the same extent erm the sort of links between administrative politicians and political administrators, but one of the things they share in common is a tendency to have a legal background and a legal approach to administration, and almost all senior civil servants in Germany, for example , have gone through a legal training. Admittedly legal training may be a bit wider, and may include elements of economics and political science, erm than the kind of training that we have in Britain, but it is nonetheless a law-dominated training, and this does make for a difference erm in approach, I think. Germany, of course, is different because it has a federal system, so that the central administration is important in policy-making terms and policy is tending to go more and more towards the centre, but the administration of the different states, federal states, what they call the Länder, has a very important executive role, and the central government has a much less important role in actually carrying out policy. erm So it's rather smaller erm and in that sense differs, because of the extent to which the federal states have their, have their own powers and their own responsibilities. So, in summary, we are all administered rather differently, but perhaps we've all got something to learn from each other. Yes, because we're all facing very much the same kind of problems. Germany, admittedly, hasn't got quite the same high rate of inflation, but France has an inflation problem, France has an unemployment problem. erm Many of the problems of what are usually called ‘advanced capitalist industrial economies’ are similar, erm and I think it is increasingly the case that we find that we can't tackle them on our own, we need to consult, we need to learn from each other. erm Other people's solutions affect what we can do, and so we have to come closer, in the sense at least of understanding and consulting. I'm sure that's very important. Thank you very much, Anne. That's all that we have time for today. During the next few programmes, we're going to take a look at trends in science and engineering, particularly in the way that the subjects are taught, and opportunities for employment. Next week, for example, we shall start with mathematics. How has maths teaching been influenced by the introduction of calculators and computers? Do we have enough old-fashioned arithmetic? And how important is a good mathematical background to getting a job? These and other questions will be answered by Dudley Ward. Until the same time next week, then, good-bye. Ted Young is a very familiar voice to Radio Brighton listeners because for many many years he has been presenting the weather forecast. He's now taken a step upwards or sideways or whatever it is, he's gone to the Met Office Headquarters, and he's more concerned with other matters. Ted, what's it like to be a weather forecaster, are you a popular man as such? Oh, not all the time. No, not by any means, but of course, when the weather is right, people just accept it and take it for granted. When it is wrong for their particular purposes then we get the blame for it. And are you confident when you give a weather forecast that the chances are that it's going to be correct, or do you do it with a slight feeling of uneasiness? Well, there are always possible alternative forecasts that we might make, but on the whole I think we know that we have to decide the best possible forecast that we can give, and, well, when I say ‘the best’, the most erm confident forecast that we can push out erm with the information that we have available. Because if we don't do it that way, then our forecasts are of no use to anybody. We could easily quite often sit on the fence and say the sun may come out or it may stay cloudy all day. The rain may reach the area but on the other hand it may not. It's much better, I feel, from the public's point of view, for us simply to say ‘Yes, I think although it will be cloudy until the latter end of the morning that we confidently expect the sun to break through, and then when it's through it'll stay with us through the afternoon. It may produce the odd shower later in the afternoon with the heating but erm a fair part of the day will be dry.’ Most people just listen to weather forecasts and either believe them or don't believe them and certainly get cross with people like yourselves if it mhm doesn't work out the right way,but that must be just the tip of the iceberg as far as you're concerned. The real work I suspect is behind the scenes in all sorts of different ways. Yes. What do you have to do actually to, to prepare a forecast? What actually happens? Well of course we are, the forecast that you hear on the radio or watch on the television is erm just the front end of a very last organisation. First of all the British Met Office erm receives information from all over the world, and it is able to do this because it is part of a massive weather organisation called the World Met Organisation, and this is linked by very, very high-speed communications worldwide. We have now erm at least the World Met Organisation has established a world global trunk communication system, and this can transmit information and it does transmit information to right round the world at very, very high speed. If I can give you an example of what I'm talking about, part of the information we receive of course is erm surface, weather reports taken by weather observers at all sorts of places across the face of the earth. Every hour of the day some eight thousand five hundred of these reports are made. They are fed in onto this global trunk circuit erm from many feeder lines, sometimes by radio, sometimes by telephone, but they get in onto the very high-speed trunk circuit, and of those eight and half thousand observations made every hour, it takes between four and five minutes for six and half thousand of them to reach us at Bracknell. And if that's not fast communication, I don't know what is. The remaining two and a half thousand, because they come in on very much slower methods, can take up to two to three hours to reach Bracknell, but by the end of the three hours we have all the information that was available at any given hour of the day. Forecasting has obviously improved a great deal over the years. Is this largely due to being able to get many more measurements at many different places and stick them together rather rapidly using a computer? Well of course to forecast the weather accurately, you have to understand the atmosphere. In past years erm in the British Isles especially with the British Met Office, we've only been able really to study part of the atmosphere over the northern hemisphere. First of all it was just covering the North Atlantic, the eastern seaboard of the States, perhaps Greenland and Iceland, and Europe down as far as North Africa, and erm we concentrated on that part of the atmosphere, but of course the atmosphere is continuous all round the globe, and whatever happens in any part of that atmosphere, any part of the globe, has some affect on the rest of the atmosphere. And so nowadays, with the advent of high-speed telecommunications, satellites, and the formation of the World Met Organisation in particular, we now get the information that I've already mentioned all over the world, very high-speed arrangements, and so we can now study the atmosphere all the way across. The satellite erm in particular has helped considerably in this area, and future satellites we think will benefit even more, because we shall be taking erm infra-red erm pictures, as we fondly call them, of the atmosphere from that very high level, and sampling the atmosphere at very, very detailed levels, about one hundred metre-steps from the surface right up to anything up to ten thousand kilometres. What sort of measurements do you do? Is it air pressure and, and humidity and so on? Well the surface weather observer will take temperature, pressure, humidity, erm the wind speed and direction, he will study visibility, he will see whether it's raining or there are showers in his vicinity, erm study the amount of cloud, the type of cloud above him as he can see it, erm all these details will feed in onto a routine hourly observation. Other times of the day of course he measures minimum temperature, maximum temperature, erm and the number of sunshine hours, the rainfall, and other temperatures such as ground temperatures or the earth's temperatures, all these things come into the picture to build up a weather observation. At sea of course they measure the temperature of the surface of the sea as well. erm To what extent do you rely on measurements, as it were, and to what erm extent do you rely on actual observations, because it seems to me that there's a, at least a possibility that you may have a whole sort of set of measurements that may indicate something's going to happen, but if you actually stuck your head out of the window and looked up you could see it was actually raining instead of sunny? Well of course bear in mind that when these observations are made, as they are at present, erm at spots over the atmosphere, they're represent the weather as seen from that spot. Some of them are taken by instrumentation but others are eye observations. Now they can only represent the area that the observer stands in and can see around him, and erm this leaves many gaps over the surface of the earth where we cannot really be sure of what the weather's doing. We have to assume it's the same as the nearest observation, so erm it can be misleading just to take the surface observation, surface instrumentation readings, erm but erm we have to be able to interpolate, and this is the experience of the forecaster comes in, to say what is in the gaps. And sometimes he's wrong, of course. There can be, as erm I saw demonstrated recently, very large thunderstorm occurring in between observations, and that thunderstorm cannot be seen by any one of the surface observations, but it is there, radar can pick it up, for instance, or a satellite can see it, but the man on the ground can't see it necessarily, and so that could slip through and it may be the only thunderstorm in a vast area, but it is there, but the observations don't show it. The general public are only really aware of some of your services, I suspect. They hear weather forecasts, erm see weather forecasts presented on television, and perhaps read weather forecasts in the newspaper, but the Met Office does very much more than that, doesn't it? Oh, it does indeed, yes. In fact we are really divided into various branches. We have a, a whole range of branches doing research into the atmosphere. There's a tremendous amount we don't know about the atmosphere. We're always finding out new evidence. erm We have to study the atmosphere at very levels, say, from the ground, up to six inches above the ground. If you stop and think about it's very important that, that area of atmosphere for growing crops, seedlings, and things of this nature, so there is an agricultural erm connection there. Then there is the general atmosphere from the ground up to, say, a hundred thousand feet. erm In this area, all our ‘weather’ as we call it, rain, cloud, and wind, mostly occur, so we have to study this for the general forecast point of view. Then there are erm the outer space of areas, the very high atmosphere, not outer space really, but the high atmosphere areas, we don't know a lot about this. The ozone layers and erm the advent of carbon dioxide and these sorts of things, we're studying this all the time to see how it affects the atmosphere, how it therefore affects our weather. So we have research branches looking into that. Then there are other things, there are the ocean currents. There's the El Niño Current, which has been in the news through the summer, off the coast of South America. This is erm a warm current, small current, but nearby there is a big excursion of warm water wells up, and we're not very sure why, but it extends out into the Pacific. This year it's extended far further than usual, and you've got hundreds of thousands of square miles of water which is much warmer than usual in the Pacific. Now this will affect a vast area of atmosphere, because the air moving over that sea surface tends to take up the characteristics and if the temperature's higher on the sea surface than normal, the air becomes warmer than normal, and this sets up all sorts of reactions, it will probably produce a lot more clouds, for instance, and erm this in turn will cut off the sun's rays from that area of atmosphere, and this will have an effect on the whole erm heat engine of the atmosphere as we know it so erm we're now studying how far afield this is affecting the weather. Is it affecting the weather all round the world? Is it, can we attribute this sort of thing to the erm areas of drought, the areas of flooding that are occurring in various parts of the world at the moment, and all these sorts of things, and we have branches looking into this. Then we come onto the, the real sort of erm bread-and-butter forecasting world, and erm as you rightly say, most people are, think that we just do the radio and television forecasting, erm perhaps read the newspapers and see the forecasts there, but there's much more to it than that. For daily operation and domestic use, of course, the Electricity and Gas Authorities, they have to predict the amount of gas or electricity required, and the first thing they have to think about is what is the weather expected? So we are erm continuously forecasting for the Gas and Electricity Authorities. The Water Authority, well, there again, they're interested to some extent in forecast rainfall, but they're more interested in erm how much rain has fallen over quite a big area and erm over what a, what sort of period, so we maintain all the rainfall statistics throughout the country. Some eight thousand or eight and half thousand erm rain gauges are involved, we get all the information from these being fed into us all the time. Then erm one could go on, because the building industry, for instance, civil engineering, road construction, actual buildings being constructed, they're all very weather-prone, for quite a large extent of the contract, and so we provide erm weather advice to these people throughout the contract period usually, and not only throughout the contract period, but if the contract is held up because of weather then the, we get extension of contract comes into this, we can advise both sides on whether the claim is justified or not, because we have the statistics of how much rain fell, how cold it was, or perhaps it might have been a windy spell. All these sort of things we, we keep tabs on. And I suppose people organising special events must erm seek your advice on occasions. That's right, there are the leisure sides of things, the sailing industries, the golfing, erm many, many calls we get from the man who wants to play his round of golf tomorrow morning or in the afternoon or something of this sort. He will ring up and enquire. Of course I must add a, a word of warning here, because whereas once upon a time many people used to be able to ring the Weather Centres or a Met Office to get their own personal forecast, which was very nice, we enjoyed doing this, it has now got to the stage where so many people are trying to ring us that we just cannot deal with all the enquiries personally, and we're looking into ways and means of erm providing forecasts of this sort of nature, they're general sort of nature, by other means, such as radio and television. We're always anxious to push out more forecasts if we can on these erm services but erm the Government are also leaning on us and saying, ‘Yes, but you're spending lots of money on satellites, computers and all this sort erm You must get some of that money back.’ So now we're having to charge for more of our services. I personally don't like doing it, because it involves accountancy and all this sort of thing, but erm it erm when you stop and think about it, it's a, it's a must. Somebody's got to pay for everything. You can't get anything for free in this world. What, what about events at shows, erm air shows and pigeon racing erm Yes, we're involved in all these. erm The, the shows themselves, air shows, or even fêtes and things like this, the organisers are always very interested in the weather. They like us to come along and have a stand erm which we do sometimes, and erm it also follows on, the insurance companies then step in because very often the organisers will take out a pluvious insurance to erm fend themselves off against loss of income because of wet weather, and we provide the information to the insurance companies of how much rain fell in the vicinity of that show, and this sort of thing. As regards pigeon racing, well, many people don't realise how much money is invested in pigeon racing. I was at one point some years ago told that more money's invested in pigeon racing than in horse racing. I found this difficult to believe, but erm judging by the number of pigeon forecasts, race forecasts that we issue, erm we're very often talking about a quarter of a million pigeons at a time flying from A to B, and we provide the forecasts for these federations that race these pigeons, and there are a lot of pigeons flying about. I know I see a lot of pigeons in my garden, but erm racing pigeons, erm it's a very, very big industry. And the Brighton area. Does that have good weather, compared with the rest of the country? Well of course it must do, it's on the south coast for, first of all, but erm the South Downs have their problems. They're beautiful if you're walking across the Downs and admiring the trees or the open countryside, but erm there are times, and we've had just a recent spell with easterly winds, and we find with an easterly wind along the south coast, because of the Downs, and because of the, the Dover Straits, these easterly winds tend to erm funnel, as we call it, and therefore they are stronger than they would normally be expected to be, so Brighton does have its disadvantages in, from that point of view, but from the sunshine and the general point of view erm it takes a lot to beat the area. Ted Young, thank you very much. My pleasure. for almost any day, and you'll find news of floods, famines, earthquakes, and any number of other natural and man-created disasters. This is the first of a short series of programmes in which we shall be taking a look at some of these unfortunate happenings, and asking questions such as, ‘To what extent can they predicted?’ and ‘How can they best be coped with?’ Dr. Francis de Souza, the founder and Director of the International Disaster Institute based in London, recently visited the University. I asked her how one defined a disaster. Well it's a very good question. I think that the simple answer that it's you, the media, who decide whether an event is a disaster by the way in which you report it. If an earthquake happens in, let us say, Timbuctoo, and it is a very strong earthquake which shakes erm towns in surrounding areas perhaps sort of fifty miles away erm that is clearly a disaster of one sort or another. But if it doesn't kill lots of people, we don't consider it a disaster, or if you, the media, decide not to report it, it isn't a disaster. Disaster is something which comes on your telly, mid-evening, and shows pictures of people in distress, usually people from the other end of, of the world, that's a disaster. And presumably there's also a time-scale associated to a disaster. A disaster can't by definition last too long. No. I think that's an extremely good point actually, because of course, when one thinks about it and looks at it, there are many many things which are happening in today's world which are disasters. The way in which forests are disappearing, land is becoming desert, erm food is not being grown in areas where it used to be grown, those are disasters, but what we're talking about is the, the rather more sudden event which, which you know reaches a crescendo, even if it does take a long time to develop, like a famine, nevertheless the disaster is considered to be that point when perhaps thousands of people are in very desperate need of food. Is there an element in which a disaster is an event which you can't forecast? Is there a sense in which if you knew it was coming it's not a disaster, or at least it, it needn't be a disaster? Yes. I mean that is really, in a sense, what we're all about at the International Disaster Institute, is to try and carefully work out what happens to people in various parts of the world. If there's a drought, how that drought affects people so that they actually begin to starve from want of food. Now if we are able to work out what happens, then of course we can relay that information to the major relief agencies, whom we would hope could then step in and provide food before the famine occurs. Unfortunately we've not got to that stage yet, and it's very rare for a threatened famine to be prevented by the international relief community, and even, once it has occurred, it's very rare for the relief to run smoothly, so I think the research part is to try and find out how to get the right aid to the right people at the right time. Is, is disaster research linked to some extent to risk-taking theory? Is that very much to do with your sort of research you do? Oh, very much so, because I mean there are two aspects to a disaster. First of all it's the, the finding out erm how best you can prevent one, and then when you've found that out trying to persuade people to take the necessary measures to make themselves less vulnerable. erm For instance we know that, that erm in this country you can't get a mortgage without taking out fire insurance, and the reason why it's mandatory in a mortgage is because if it were left to people's whim they wouldn't do it, they'd say, ‘Well it won't happen to me,’ and mortgage companies don't like that very much. But I think that what we're dealing with in developing countries is not so much erm an unwillingness to make themselves less vulnerable to disasters but much more erm they don't have the resources. They don't have the money. And if you have a very small amount of money, and a large number of erm demands on, on that budget, then the last thing you're going to do, is to spend a lot of money reinforcing your house for an earthquake that may affect your grandchildren and not you. So I think that disaster preparedness and, and, and making yourself safer comes only when you have quite a large surplus, and that means in the developed countries of the world, like the Californian was much, much less likely to die from an earthquake even though he lives in a very vulnerable part of the world, than perhaps erm a rural person in Central America. To what extent do you research into specific disasters, floods, for example, or earthquakes? We at the Institute research into those disasters erm for which we currently have an expertise, as it were, but erm our group was founded actually at the beginning of erm the nineteen seventies and we have specialised quite a lot into looking at famine food erm emergencies and nutritional and medical engineering, sanitation aspects of famines, and lately we've included in that erm quite of lot of, of work, research work into refugees, the cause of refugees, the prevention of refugees, the alleviation of suffering of refugees, particularly in developing countries. Floods is a fairly highly specialised now, particularly flood plain management. On the whole we've tended to leave that to, to people who do have that specialisation. Do you carry out your research by studying actual disasters as they take place or do you build models, theories as to what might take place? Well we do both. I think that the idea of erm you know, rushing in to a disaster, taking the aeroplane out, and, and seeing this enormous distress around one and sitting there with a notebook and a pencil is, is unacceptable and indeed we don't do that at all. What we tend to do is to brief ourselves very thoroughly on vulnerable spots in the world, and in countries where we already have links and where we've worked before and we know the background because we, we feel we need that and we monitor very carefully certain events which could lead to a disaster, so that when the disaster does happen, like for instance the Ugandan famine of nineteen seventy-nine to eighty-one, we knew exactly when it was going to happen and we knew exactly where the people were, we knew who was going to be affected, we knew why they were affected, we knew where the food stocks were, we knew how long it was going to take to get so many thousand tonnes of food from A to B erm and how many trucks you would need. I mean it was down to that kind of detail. So when we actually got out there, we go out to work in some capacity or another, either to carry out a survey of the logistics or perhaps to sort out and look at the way in which one can set up an immunisation programme in a refugee camp. It's always in a working capacity, but the difference being that we note down the results of our work, document it very carefully so that we can provide some kind of a lesson learnt for a future operation. Do people listen to you? Not enough. Not enough. And I think there are two reasons for that. First of all because erm when we set ourselves up we were erm I think fairly critical of the relief system, and the relief system erm I think is still very bruised from that, it didn't like being criticised. And I find that extremely understandable, but nevertheless we felt it was necessary to say, ‘Well, you know, it's not right. They're not getting it right, and there are really no longer any excuses.’ The second reason is that there are huge constraints to effective relief programmes. They are political constraints, particularly with the U N, they are political ones when one considers government to government aid, I mean at the moment for instance the British Administration will only give large, significant amounts of emergency relief to countries which are already recipients of British development aid. The third factor which I think tends to constrain rapid and effective relief action is that erm disasters are fundraising opportunities for agencies. Public attention is focussed on an event somewhere in a remote part of the world, and people are extremely generous. And in a way this interferes with acting in advance of the disaster, or indeed acting perhaps not immediately, but spending a little time considering what might be the priority needs and then going in with it. There's tremendous pressure on agencies to, you know, to send in the medicines, to send in the blankets, when they may not really be needed. So I think that the kind of logical erm thread and erm that we present and the logical work that we do is not always compatible with the actions of the international humanitarian community, but it is changing, slowly. What do you feel about the contributions of the voluntary agents like Oxfam or Christian Aid in terms of disasters? I would thought that from my quite long experience now with the relief agencies that the British operational agencies, that is those agencies which consistently respond to overseas disasters and send out their own people, technically and professionally qualified people, and that would be really Save the Children Fund and Oxfam, are absolutely excellent. I mean they probably are the best in the world. They're not exactly specialist agencies but they have a great deal of experience and they have a commitment to a certain kind of research, and they have, I mean we've had our run-ins with them as it were, but they have listened, and they've supported some of our work as well , and I think that they in time will provide a kind of model as it were for a number of erm perhaps less experienced agencies throughout the world, newly set-up ones, as to how it is possible to do consistently good logical rational work in the face of the chaos that a disaster produces. What about disasters in this country? Are there any disasters you see in your books that might take place in this country that we're not taking any notice of, in terms of planning at all? Well, I think there are a very large number. I mean we, we were very concerned about the possibility of there being wide-scale, widespread large-scale flooding of London before the barrier was put up. In fact we were funded by an independent erm foundation to do a, a very large study of that which we did and we reported and we, we found that the risk was totally unacceptable, calculating statistically the risk. erm There are many areas of the British Isles which are, are liable to flooding and vulnerable to floods. I think another erm area is this question of erm you know dumping of toxic waste, and transporting of toxic waste, which after all could flare up into a disaster very rapidly indeed. And apparently a colleague of mine gave a paper this morning saying that Kent was vulnerable to earthquakes erm even though earthquakes have not been recorded or at least not substantial ones in this country for perhaps two, three hundred years erm there is a history of earthquakes in, particularly in the sort of Colchester, Essex, Kent region, and erm the erm the historians and the pundits tell us that erm they may come back again so perhaps we ought to reinforce our buildings now. What about on a personal level? Do you ever think about a disasters as erm an individual level or do you just deal with them at a large-scale, national group level? Yes. I mean disasters to us, necessarily, means a lot of people being involved in a short space of time in a limited geographical area. I mean it's the old story, isn't it, one person who gets killed on a Bank Holiday car crash is not news but four getting killed together is a disaster, is newsworthy, I mean that's the way it works. Are you concerned about our roads and railway systems? No. We leave that to the specialists, and indeed I think that the reason why we're particularly concerned with disasters which happen in the poorer parts of the world, the developing countries, is because they seem to have less of a voice to be able to complain about what is done to them. There are assumptions made in the richer, Western countries, the donor nations, about what people need, and they're saddled with it, and it can have long-term, disastrous effects, the wrong kind of aid. And I think that our concern is to try and see how that can be improved and, and possibly the underlying reason for that is that erm we all feel that unless we take it seriously, the kind of disasters that increasingly affect developing countries, and try to make our own assistance more rational, more respectful in a way of, of them and their cultures, then I think we're storing up an enormous amount of trouble for ourselves in the future. Whereas I think in this country that there are adequate channels and mechanisms for people to protest, or, you know, for others to protest on their behalf. It would clearly be very difficult to compare one disaster to another, in fact I'm not even sure you could do it from a grammatical point of view, but if you were to point your finger somewhere in the world and say, ‘We really ought to look at what's happening here, or what might happen there,’ could you think of one outstanding example? Yes, I'm afraid I can, very immediately and very clearly indeed, and that is famine. We, we felt at the end of the seventies that there was no question that the eighties was going to be a decade of increasing food shortages, and widespread famine, that is, people literally dying for want of food. And sadly, very sadly I think we're being proved right. Francis, thank you very much. Continuing our short series on education, today we're going to talk about the school curriculum. A few weeks ago the Secretary of State, Sir Keith Joseph, announced that he would like schools and the educational world generally, to explore whether they could define specific objectives for particular subjects. Putting it crudely, a core of knowledge, such that if a student knew certain facts, he could be said to have reached a certain standard. In this way perhaps examination assessment could be made more objective. In recent months, Sir Keith has set up a national committee to explore some of these possibilities. The School Curriculum Development Committee, as it's called, is headed by Professor Roger Blin-Stoyle, who is a physicist at Sussex. Roger, has your Committee started work yet? Yes, erm we began work in earnest in the beginning of the New Year. I should perhaps explain, though, how the Committee came into being. erm Listeners will probably know that there has been for many years what's called the Schools Council, which has looked at erm curriculum matters and examination matters, and a year or so ago it was decided to discontinue the Schools Council, and to replace it by two successor committees, one the School Curriculum Development Committee, which you've already mentioned and which I chair, and a parallel committee concerned with examinations, the School Examination, sorry the Secondary Examination Council, which is chaired by a mathematician, Sir Wilfred Cockroft. The Examination Council came into being some erm nine months ago and has already been involved in quite a lot of activity, I mean particularly the erm problem of sixteen-plus examining, whether we should move from a system of erm O-levels and C S E, or to a combined system, Sixteen-plus Examination it would probably be called. Well we may return to that in a moment Yes. but I want to ask you, are you going to work on this idea of a core curriculum? Well, this is certainly one of the things that we shall be looking at. erm You must recognise that the general outline of school education, from primary and in secondary level, is a matter of policy, and this is in the hands of the D E S and local authorities. Our role, I think, has to be, among a great many other things, to look at the over-all effect of the school curriculum, to ensure that it's balanced, that it's cohesive, and that it has an appropriate spread for all children. At this particular point in time, we have the Technical Vocational Education Initiative. This is an initiative which is enabling schools to pay quite a lot of attention to vocational matters. And that is something that we shall want to look at to see what impact this has on the rest of the curriculum. So yes, the answer to your question is, we shall be looking at the curriculum as a whole, and at its various parts. And when you say various parts, do you mean various ages and stages as well, or is this essentially something for sixteen-year-olds? No, we mean all ages and all stages. Our task is to consider the situation from the earliest primary level through till, certainly the compulsory school-leaving erm age, sixteen, but of course we shall be very interested in developments between sixteen and eighteen. Are you actually going to include subjects that are less traditional, perhaps, erm compared with the academic subjects such as history and geography? Are you looking at personal and social education, if I could call it that? Well, this is certainly one thing that erm we want to look at. We're moving into erm an age where, for example, there is a lot of unemployment, and one can't see that going away very quickly. It's an age when I think erm children leaving school have got to be versatile, self-reliant and able to cope with very changing situation. We live in a technological age, and there are going to be major changes without a doubt, we've all seen them over the past few decades, and into the future there are going to be many major changes. And so children have got to leave school able to cope with these changes, and this means that we have to develop self-reliance in them, and general abilities for living. So yes, we shall be looking at erm those sort of matters. Are you concerned with equality of opportunity for both boys and girls, for example? Yes, that is something that erm we've erm made quite clear, as a result of our first major meeting, which we held two or three weeks ago, that sex equality, sex stereotyping, are matters that have got to be looked into very carefully. This is particularly important, and I'm now riding my own hobby horse, but in the area of science erm we have a situation that erm in most secondary schools choice has to be made at the age of thirteen, fourteen, by boys and girls as to which subjects they should take. Most girls opt out of the physical sciences. erm This has a knock-on effect insofar as if they've once given up the physical sciences, then it means that they've given up all hopes, when they leave school, of following a, a job or a profession, of courses in further or higher education, in technological, engineering subjects. And we are moving into an age, I think it must be recognised, where some of the traditional jobs for girls, for example, secretaries, shops, things of this sort, are actually being decreased because of the technological revolution, so bearing in mind that something like seventy per cent of women are actually in employment, it's very important that a girl, at the age of thirteen or fourteen, does not decide to cut herself off from the possibility of employment in these technological, engineering fields. So one thing that I'm sure we'll want to do is to support the work of the Secondary Science Curriculum Review. This is one of the projects that we've inherited, incidentally run by another member of Sussex University, Dr. Dick West, which is recommending, and it's getting a lot of strong support for this, that all children should have a balanced science education, including the physical sciences, up to the age of sixteen, and so that erm issue of choice will just not arise. It must be very difficult to be objective so far as the curriculum and level of knowledge of certain subjects are concerned. I would imagine that almost the easiest subject to start with is something like mathematics. Am I right in thinking you can define more readily whether you know something or don't know something in mathematics? Well, yes, mathematics is a nice, tidy, logical subject, and erm is a subject which erm terrifies a lot of children, and I think here particularly of the situation in primary schools. About erm eighteen months, two years ago a report was published, the Cockroft Report, this is the same Sir Wilfred Cockroft who's chairing the Examination erm Council, which looked into the teaching of mathematics at all level in the country and it was an extremely good report and a lot has followed from it. One thing that has not been taken up very thoroughly at this stage is the question of teaching of mathematics in primary schools, and this is a field that erm we decided at our last meeting that we must erm look into. So many children can be put off mathematics at the primary level, and it's important this doesn't happen. It's also important that erm children at primary level do learn something of calculators and the technology of mathematics. They see them at home, it's all around them, but the use of calculators for example has not really been built yet widely into the curriculum for primary schools, so that is an area that we shall be having a look at. And you're not worried that the use of calculators at too early a stage would make a child quite incapable of understanding what addition and multiplication and so forth is Well of course there, there is this worry, and, and they have to be used erm properly and in a helpful way. I think erm certainly for a child to rely entirely on a calculator for all mathematical operations would be a disastrous thing. On the other hand, used aright, it can help very much in the understanding of mathematical operations, because far more many and widespread examples can be dealt with very quickly, and they can for example erm get a feel of the result of multiplying or dividing or whatever it, it is, numbers of quite different sizes. So I think there is a lot of work to be done there, but as you rightly say, it has to be done carefully and one mustn't get the dependency on calculators which one does see around one. I've seen this in shops when somebody has to add a twenty p to seventy-three p and out comes the calculator Yes. and this is terrible. What about the skills which are very important but don't come as a formal part of any subject, the so-called communication skills? Are you thinking about those at all? Yes. I, I'm sorry to keep saying ‘Yes’ to everything that you're, you're suggesting, but yes, we are thinking about communication skills, particularly the encouraging and helping children to learn to write properly, I don't mean calligraphy, I mean actually write and express themselves on paper, oral communication, and things of this kind are things that we do want to pay attention to. I should perhaps explain in the context of your various questions when I say that erm we do want to become involved in these things, that, at this stage, and we've only held two meetings, we have just identified themes and general areas in which we want to work, and not precise projects or activities. That will be the next stage we shall be working on over the next half-year or so, and what we do want to do is to seek the help of all the local authorities and teachers in this work, because one should perhaps put things into context, we're a committee of twenty-two people, we have a staff, which when they're all fully employed they'll be about fifty, we have a budget of two million, but we have got to communicate with something like four hundred to five hundred thousand teachers, something like erm five thousand secondary schools and twenty-six thousand primary schools. So it is a major problem, this communication, and so we do have to work with local authorities, with teacher organisations, anyone who can help us in this task. Are you going to set up lots of projects? Well, we shall certainly be setting up some projects, but we would hope to use small-scale projects which are perhaps already underway in different local authorities. And we have also inherited a number of projects from the Schools Council. I've mentioned already the Secondary Science Curriculum Review. erm I won't list them all, but there are one or two interesting ones, for example, there is a project dealing with the relation between education and industry, the Schools Council Industry Project, which we wish to support. This is a project which is to help children at school understand something of industry and of the industrial world in which they're going to work, and also conversely to bring industrialists into involvement with schools themselves and with developing the curriculum. Lastly, Roger, your committee, it's a small committee, twenty-two members mhm tackling an immense task. Are you open to suggestions from the educational field as a whole as to what you should do and what's important and so on? Oh, indeed. I said earlier that we want to involve all aspects of the educational system, and for example we have already written to every local authority in the country, telling them about the general themes that we have identified as important, asking for their comments, for their suggestions of other matters that we should perhaps look into, and also asking for their help and involvement. So yes, we're very much open to suggestion. erm We shall have our own ideas, of course, and these are expressed at this stage in terms of these general themes, but we surely will respond when, if there are any suggestions coming. Roger, thank you very much, and good luck in this enormous project you're undertaking. That's all that we have time for today. Next Sunday we shall be looking at another live education issue. Until next week then, good-bye. Hello. Science is thought of as a subject that is difficult both to teach and to learn. The folklore in school terms is that you have to be a relatively ancient teenager to appreciate physics and chemistry and biology. Is this true? Today I have with me Dr Mike King, who's made a study of science teaching in schools. Mike, how early can science be taught to children? Well I think that rather depends on saying fairly concisely what it is we mean by science. If in a sense it means how early can you teach children facts and contents and very straightforward knowledge, then I think the answer is not very early at all because it may be fairly meaningless that you could teach a child to repeat Newton's law, perhaps the same way as you could teach him to repeat the eleven times table, but without a good concept of number or what Newton meant. It's probably something they could learn off parrot fashion, but doesn't have any actual meaning for them. But if you look at science as a way of exploring their world, a world they can structure their curiosity about aspects of the physical world, about aspects of the environment, then I think we can do it very early indeed, probably from the time children can come to school at the age of five and from reception classes onwards. In fact, we do run a project which looks at the ways science can be taught in the first school, which has been very surprising to me and many of my colleagues by what can actually be done with children in the ages of five to seven. For most young children in that age group, the world's a magic place and we traditionally like to teach them nature study and flowers and cuddly hamsters and rabbits in school, and that's the nature table syndrome, and that's great and I'm not knocking that at all. There is so much opportunity for children to look at the nature of the physical world around them which isn't taken advantage of, and which could be, and I think that may have something to do with the attitude of teachers as much as the attitude of children. But erm they're tremendously curious about the nature of the world around them and they're certainly capable of, if not understanding why, exploring what. I took my godson, Dominic Robinson, round my laboratory the other day, which is a physics laboratory, and he enjoyed it immensely and asked a number of questions, and was absolutely intrigued and fascinated by the various bits of wires and plugs and so on like that, and he asked me the sort of questions that I don't think I would expect sometimes my undergraduates to ask. They were perhaps stemmed from innocence, but they were very searching and very real questions, and he was obviously very excited to ask them and to listen to some of the answers. Do you think we perhaps put kids off an interest in science by our sort of insistence that they have to have a solid understanding of Newton's laws and all sorts of principles, and we lose the magic too early? Yes, I'm sure we do, and I think that's to do with our notions of what science is. There's a mystique which has built up about it. Anybody who's worked in graduate or postgraduate level in science likes almost to continue that mystique. Yes, we do put children off by being rigid because a child, I am sure, doesn't see the world in a rigid way. What's out there is all out there. Bits of his universe are to do with art and colour and drawing. I mean if you watch a child, and I have a seven year old boy, playing stacking cards or dominoes is the current thing in our house, watching them stack them and then knocking them off and watching them fall and the way they fall, the amount of work which is involved there in structures and forces and the nature of gravity and the way things behave under gravity fascinate them. The problem, of course, is most of us couldn't give a sensible reply to the very searching questions they ask, so we tend to say something like ‘that's a fascinating questions, but you'll have to wait till you're older and ask a scientist’. That's not the children's mistake, that's ours, because we couldn't actually for the best part respond in a meaningful way. And in another sense what we don't do often is to actually recognize the significance of the child's question because of the language he puts it in. He asks something which, you know, I mean the way they do, what is life, and you wouldn't know — unless you're perhaps trained or awake to the significance of what the child is actually asking — you wouldn't know how to respond to that, so you tend to put it off. You mentioned that schools are quite good at biology, that they have guinea pigs and they have growing plants and so forth, and I think you hinted at the fact that they perhaps are not quite so good at maybe the harder sciences, we might call them, of physics and chemistry. Is that the case and, if so, what can we do about it at an early stage? I believe that is the case, and I believe that again is a reflection of us as adults erm and not an indictment of teachers. They show great pedagogic skills in almost every aspect of school life. Most of us, as people who live in this world, are interested in our environment, and even if not young we certainly grow to appreciate it and to learn a bit about flowers and the way animals live and work in our garden and watching David Attenborough on television and erm we have a genuine interest because as part of this world we know it and come to understand it, and probably feel, therefore, if even if you're not a biology specialist, which you certainly don't have to be by any means, when a child asks a question about, you know, ‘where do the flies go in winter?’ and ‘why's the hamster gone to sleep for three months?’we feel more capable of answering it because we're closer to it ourselves and those are the sorts of questions that people told us. When a child asks a question about something dropping from a height — does it get faster and it falls for longer and longer?— that probably is a question that most teachers who are not trained in the physical sciences just cannot answer. What can we do about it? I think at the end it must come down to two things; one basically a change in attitude — we have to come to recognise that we live in a very, very technological society, that most of us were born before man walked on the moon, but the kids in school were born in an age when man had walked on the moon ten years ago and they live in a world which is very scientific, and we have to recognise that — and the other one is practical sense, I think, where we really have to look seriously to in-service training of teachers, a) and b) we have to look carefully at the way we train teachers now. In many institutions which train primary and first school teachers, the teachers themselves have an option as to whether they can do a science course or not and then even if they do it it's usually very biologically biased erm towards the natural sciences. At Sussex we actually make a third of the time they spend on the university component of their courses compulsory work in science — that is to say every student does it — so we can actually do something about it practically by looking at our processes of initial training and coming to realise what an important section of the world this is and training teachers accordingly, and not to leave it at that but to continue with erm progressive and planned in-service training of teachers. Our own experience from several of the projects that we've been looking at which are in-service type projects, is that when we do train teachers and when we do put an investment in it, we see the pay-off in the schools that physical science does get done in schools, it is fun and it is exciting. It's when the teachers think this is a boring, mundane, difficult thing to do, then that tends to be put over to the children and of course the disaster is that the children will believe it, and it if the children will believe it then we grow up in a highly technological society producing very few technologists or scientists. What you describe does sound a little bit like a chicken and egg situation from the point of view that I think you were saying that erm many teachers are ill-equipped, actually, to teach erm physics, perhaps, and chemistry, whereas they are a little bit better able to get across fundamental ideas in biology, and in a sense because of this they are going to produce another generation who perhaps have very ill-founded ideas of these basic sciences and so on and so forth, and somehow one's got to cut into this cycle and actually improve it, improve the output somehow. Yes, the chicken and egg syndrome is interesting because and I agree it is a viscious circle, but in fact you don't make new omelettes unless you do break some eggs, and I think the time has come to break some eggs and I think that's what I'm advocating is that it will come from the teacher because the teacher is the guiding light of what happens in the classroom, and if the teacher has it in the back of their mind there will be no science, then there will be no science. If, on the other hand, the teacher has it in the back of their mind always to be aware of the possibility of bringing into the work that's going on in the classroom and bringing all they're usually very excellent pedagogic skills to bear on it, aspects of the physical sciences, so that the children can get an early and meaningful introduction to it, then it will happen. The question is how do you break into the cycle and make that happen, and I think the answer is, as I said, in two ways — one by making teachers more aware during their period of initial training, either at college or at university or polytechnic, and secondly by looking very carefully at the amount and type of in-service training erm that goes on for teachers once they've left college and are in the schools. Essentially what you're saying is that a teacher who's actually teaching you ought to be able to say to that teacher ‘look, here's a package, if you like, that you can insert into your range of skills, and these are of things that you can do with children which are worthwhile doing and fairly easily for you to acquire skills yourself, and they will be very good and helpful for the children’. Well I'd only say that initially erm because then what you end up with is a sort of lucky dip which every now and then somebody will remember the bag of science tricks that somebody's taught them and dip into. Now I think that's better than nothing, but I think one has to take it a stage further than that and say that erm the concepts and the processes in science do build logically one upon the other, in a coherent and meaningful way, and that's important for teachers to appreciate what that meaningful sequence is and that, you know, the lucky dip idea is, as I have said, better than nothing, but it's so much inferior to the notion that teachers should be aware that there is a progression in science and that they can teach children progressively from a very early age onwards and build meaningful knowledge upon meaningful knowledge. Is there anything that parents can do? Christmas is coming up and there are chemistry sets in the shops. Do these make good gifts from a scientific point of view? Well they're a lot of fun and kids love them. As I commented a little earlier to somebody, I still haven't quite forgiven my mother-in-law for the chemistry set she bought my seven-year-old. He is absolutely amazed by it and spends lots of time in a garage at the back, which actually means that I spend an awful lot of time in that garage in the cold too! Yes, they are good sets and they do they are exciting for children. They do enjoy them and they do make good use of them. Quite often they need a lot of erm time spent by the parent with the child, and if the parent's happy with that they're fine. None of them, or very few of them, if you buy a good quality one is dangerous. It's very important, I think, that erm you match the age of the child to the age which is written on the box, because then the child will actually be handling materials that he can physically handle and ideas that he can physically cope with or intellectually cope with. So they are probably very useful erm toys, educational toys, to have in the home, but I think for the child to get the maximum from them they do he often does require an adult with him. How about electronic kits and circuits? Are they worthwhile, would you say? Yes, they are; they are very much. Again, it's a questin of matching the kit to the age of the child because some of them erm — the one we have at home, for example, plugs into the mains and although it only pushes out six or nine volts at the end the child actually does have to plug it in and, well I don't think I'd be happy if my six or seven year old was doing that, although my nine year old could cope with it quite happily. So they are useful erm children can learn a lot. What I like about them and where I think their strengths are is that they do put science, the physical sciences, in that bracket of activity which is fun, excitement and leisure and enjoyment and that it moves away from the notion that it's something you do on a wet Friday afternoon at school. Thank you very much, Mike. That's all that we have time for today. Next week I shall be talking to Peter Abbs about teaching the arts and he will be reading some very interesting children's poetry. Until next week then, goodbye. Dr Brian Smith from the University Sussex. Now the Brighton Polytechnic and Mary Donoghue. Hello. Dyslexia is a common learning difficulty, but one that's hard to define and sometimes very hard to cope with. For the next three weeks on Ideas in Action we'll discuss some practical ways that parents and teachers can help dyslexic children. Today we'll hear from polytechnic lecturer Reg James, who's just made a film of the special needs Brickwall School, and from local remedial tutor Dave Pollock, who'll give us some suggestions for teacing dyslexic children. Reg, let's start with the most obvious question first. What is dyslexia? Well it's something that's very difficult to define in a way I think that's satisfactory. What has been taken as kind of definition, which I'll paraphrase I think for this purpose, is that it's a condition that shows itself in children's reading difficulty and erm that they are having this reading difficulty despite the fact that they have had reasonable, normal teaching, that their level of intelligence appears to be normal and that they come from an adequate social cultural background. Over and above that we think in a sense that it's a series of disabilities, of intellectual functioning, and although it's not by any means proven, we think that these are probably constitutional in origin. Dave, would you agree with that definition? Yes, if I could just extend it a little. I feel that it shows itself in the contrast between the child's — we're talking about children for the moment, although obviously there are dyslexic adults — it shows itself in the contrast between the person's ability to express him or herself in words and their ability to put it down on paper and to read it off paper, and it's this contrast which often arouses one's suspicions that there might be some problem and, having gone into it a little, we find that it stems from a failure of the sensory motor system — the brain isn't processing the information it's receiving through the ear and eye. How would you both respond to a common allegation that dyslexia is a middle class disease? I think that's a very unfair kind of criticism. I've not had the experience perhaps of teaching so many dyslexic children to be able to comment on this, but certainly when I was making the videotape at Brickwall School and I asked the headmaster about that and he pointed to the fact that they certainly have a very wide intake, a complete social mix, and Professor Miles at Bangor University says that in his experience of dealing with dyslexic children they come from all walks of life, and it's really quite inaccurate — I suppose there's a sense in which, if we've got to use these phrases, that middle class people have always been very concerned about the education of their children and so they may be the parents who will ask questions about their children's lack of development, but I think it's only, you know, more significant in middle class terms because of that. Dave, what's your response? Yes, I agree absolutely with Reg there. I've come across, and still regularly do come across, people of all ages, both sexes and all social classes, who have this kind of problem. Given general definitional problems with dyslexia and learning difficulties generally, what practical suggestions can you offer to teachers of children with learning difficulties? Reg. The most essential thing, in a sense, is to give teachers enough information about this condition and the kind of difficulties it creates so that they can recognise it. I don't know whether David would agree, but my experience as a teacher was that I certainly encountered, I realize now, in my teaching career, children with dyslexia and yet no-one had told me, in my training, anything about this condition and I don't think I was in a position until later, in a sense, to recognise that I had seen children with this difficulty. So that I feel that one of the things that we must do is ensure that all people who are now training to be teachers, and those who already in the service, have got to be given more information about the condition so that they may be able to recognise it. Dave, you did a P G C E course at Sussex. Did you feel that students there were receiving adequate information about dyslexia? No, I'm afraid I didn't. The P G C is a difficult course to fill, really, for the people who are organising it, because although it's called a one-year course, in fact it lasts eight months in practice, and there are so many aspects that have to be fitted in something has to go. It's difficult enough, I think, to fit enough work on ordinary reading, if you like, let alone specific problems. I went into dyslexia because when I did that course we had the opportunity to do a special study of a subject of our own choice and I spent a lot of time on dyslexia because I was already interested in it before I started. But suppose now suppose I were a middle-aged to elderly teacher who had never come across dyslexia until recently and was now aware that he or she had dyslexic pupils, the first thing to do, I think, is to inform yourself. There are courses that one can do, extra post-experience courses once can follow. The Dyslexia Institute is a mine of information. Local Dyslexia Associations are also full of information, and there are by now quite a lot of books which have been published which are — both for parents and teachers — which are veyr easy to follow and don't necessarily involve one in many evenings and weekends of cudgelling the brain. Now suppose you've got a dyslexic child in your class, or one that you think may be — I can suggest various don'ts. The first don't is not to believe that the child is lazy because he or she is not managing to spell. Very often, as we've mentioned already in this programme, there's contrast between alertness, brightness, whatever you call it, with words in speech and the disability in writing it down. So because there's this contrast the child isn't necessarily playing up or not bothering. Also the dyslexic child is not necessarily unintelligent because he can't write something which you've just written on the blackboard or which has only just been shown to him in some other way; the dyslexic person can't look up at a blackboard, hold the visual symbols in her mind and get them down on paper in a different position. If the nature of dyslexia is borne in mind by the teacher, then the child's confidence won't necessarily be undermined. So many dyslexic children have been reduced to a state of dreadful anxiety by teachers who've called them stupid in front of the other children. Could I just take you back, David, on the point where you're talking about the things that the teacher might recognise. It seems to me that another problem, as far as the teacher is concerned, is the inconsistency in the dyslexic child's performance. The fact that the teacher finds that the child has spelt a word correctly in one context and then perhaps in a sentence or two later may misspell the word, makes the teacher think that this is a question of carelessness, where we know, in fact, that is a feature of dylexia — that you may be able to get a spelling correct in one context and yet you will misspell it, as it were, a few moments later. Yes, right, I think maybe this is the moment where we could list some of the signs of dyslexia, both for parents and teachers, and indeed I hope there may be some educational psychologists who have some doubts who might like to enter into some erm dialogue with us. Now I would like to isolate six possible areas of difficulty where dyslexic people will indicate signs of having a problem. The first one is visual and auditory discrimination — now there's lovely bits of jargon for you — that means the ability to differentiate between symbols when they're written and to differentiate between different sounds, particularly highly frequency sounds. Then there's the question of the association of sounds and symbols; now the average person, when learning to read, can be shown a letter, told the letter most commonly makes this sound, whatever it may be, and associate the two very quickly. The dyslexic person has great difficulty with this. Then we come to the problem of sequencing which, one again, can be visual and auditory and connected with the hearing. In order to spell, one has to combine both kinds of sequence, one has to think of the syllables in the word in the correct order and remember them and remember how far you got, and also remember the sequence of visual symbols, i.e. letters on paper. Sequencing is very often a the root of the dyslexic problem, not only in writing and reading, but also in remembering other kinds of sequence, like time sequence, which brings us to the next point. erm sequences such as what happened yesterday, what happened today, what's going to happen tomorrow — dyslexic people very often have great difficulty with this and transferring from the two dimensional to the three dimensional, like you might say to a dyslexic adult when he or she asks directions, ‘Oh, well, it's first right, second left and then there's a tower on your right and you've got to turn to the left after the tree’ and so on, and a dyslexic person can't remember any of that at all , or transfer it from the map to the reality. Last of all, we must mention orientation. When we write we scan across and move our hands from left to right. When we read we scan a line of print from left to right. This doesn't come automatically to a dyslexic person very often, and we also look at letters from left to right, but if you look at a u and then turn it upside down in your mind, you have an n, or h and y can be reversed to turn into each other, if you like, in the same way. b and d is a problem which a lot of dyslexic children have. Teachers should be aware, particularly of that aspect, I think, because phonic method is very often used in schools, by which I mean that the teacher wil hold up a flash card, and on it would be a pair of letters, say, suppose for example sh the teacher will hold up a large card with sh on it and will say to the class ‘this is shuss’ and the children will all say shuss whenever this card is held up — that's fine, but the dyslexic pupil may not be seeing sh in the same way that the other children are. They may be seeing hs, or backwards s backwards h, or backwards h backwards s — the permutations are, in fact, considerable the more you think about it, and once again I'd like to repeat that the teacher should be aware of the possibility that not all the class are actually seeing what she thinks they might be seeing. Reg, can you add to any practical teaching suggestions? One point I'd just like to add to what David was just saying there was that when you were talking about those orientation problems, when we were making the film of the children at Brickwall, what was brought home to me very strongly was that these sort of problems can arise in mathematics, as well as in reading. If you think about the problems that there are with mathematics, whereby it's not just a question of scanning print from left to right, but that you were involved in processes where sometimes you're moving from left to right and sometimes from right to left, sometimes vertically. Dyslexic children can have difficulties as far as of mathematics as well as reading. What changes in the teacher training curriculum would you both like to see in order to improve teacher recognition of learning difficulties? The first thing to do is to have a major component of the reading section to include dyslexia, with erm instruction of trainee teachers, not only in how to recognise the problem, but also how to do something about it, and how to use the education system to bring support for parents and pupils. Yes, I think that as David said one of the things that we've been working at very hard in recent years in teacher training is to try to improve the quality and the content of reading courses generally, and then I think it is also necessary to draw attention to teachers of this problem of dyslexia. I favour the notion that it often should be more detailed work on dyslexia as probably can be done in the postexperience courses. I think that teachers need to know people that they can turn to for further advice, but that they could familiarize themselves much more with what, as it were, they can do in the first instance by screening children, by using there are number of published materials, learning inventories, that can be used to discover whether a child has some difficulties that might point in this direction of dyslexia. For example, Aston University have published some very helpful materials to help teachers in the classroom identify these difficulties. Now I've used that as an illustration because I think these are some of the best materials that have been produced in this country, but there are other learning inventories and tests which can be used to help teachers find out whether they think that children have got these dyslexic difficulties. Could I just add something also there, that training of teachers, after they've done their initial training is becoming increasingly cut, of course, by the government. It is all very well for us to sit here and tell teachers to go on extra courses, but they're finding that there aren't any left, so the next thing that they can turn to the next person they can turn to is the educational psychologist. There is one for every school, of course, and this psychologist should have had more training in perceptual handicaps than an ordinary classroom teacher, and should be available to help assess the child and give advice to teachers and parents about how to help them. Many thanks to Reg James and Dave Pollock. Next week on Ideas in Action we'll discuss some of the options open to the parents of dyslexic children. Until then, goodbye. Hello. In this last programme in our short series on the boundaries of science, we're going to look at one aspect of that most baffling and intriguing subject, the origin of life. Harry Kroto is a chemist at the University, who a few years ago, in collaboration with a colleague and a student, discovered something about interstellar space that has forced scientists to reconsider their views. Harry, what did you discover? Well we discovered that there were some compounds in interstellar space that we were really rather more complicated than had previously been thought possible, and these molecules had infeasible prebiotic species, in that there were very simple reactions that could take place that would allow them to form amino acids and other rather intriguing biological molecules. Presumably one thought that, in the early days in the universe as it were, the atoms and molecules that existed were very simple ones? Yes, I think that is true. I mean the view that astronomers and most scientists and people who are interested in astronomy had was that there might be a few molecules in space, probably not very many, but if there were they would be very, very simple, probably one or two atoms, perhaps things like water, perhaps things like ammonia, and things like methane — molecules with a large amount of hydrogen attached to them and in fact a thermodynamically staple species. Now what has happened in the last decade or so, through the advent of radioastronomy, is that we've discovered that there are vast clouds of molecules between the stars and they're just chock a block with very intriguing molecules, many of which are just the sort of things we would expect to be in the prebiotic soup. What do you mean by prebiotic? Prebiotic means erm a system whereby biological processes have not actually started, but would contain many of the basic building blocks for a biological system. Why is it that these molecules weren't discovered earlier? Well the major advance that was made in the late Sixties and early Seventies was in radioastronomy, where large radio telescopes with computer control and very high sensitivity were developed. One reason was for communications, but another reason that was rather intriguing to scientists was that they could actually look at stars and look at the space between the stars and use a different region of the spectrum, in particular the radio region. Previously one's knowledge of stars comes from the light that comes in in the optical range and the visible range, or in perhaps the ultra violet if you can put a satellite above the atmosphere. Perhaps you can use infra-red dectors, but the radio telescope allowed astronomers to look in the radio range. It turned out that radio astronomy of this kind looked at extremely low temperature regions. One looks at a star, one sees radiation from an object which may have a surface temperature of many thousands of degrees — in fact, internal temperatures of millions of degrees, but with a radio telescope one's looking at very, very cold regions and these were totally inaccessible before the advent of radio astronomy, or of this type anyway, and for the first time one was able to see material spread between the stars rather thinly, but in fact in a very cold state. What sort of molecules have you been discovering? Well the original discoveries were of some fairly simple molecules. People thought well what could be in space, they'd tune the radio telescope and they found, rather intriguingly, there were molecules like water and ammonia and methane, just as they expected. Then, as they looked a little bit further and were a bit more adventurous, they found that there were some more interesting molecules such as alcohol. I mean molecules that are rather larger, molecules that actually are rather important in biological systems. But these were fairly understandable. But as time went on and techniques advanced, they found that peculiar sorts of molecules turned up, rather unusual ones, things that weren't expected — molecules that are very uncommon on the earth and in fact a number of molecules were discovered in interstellar space before they were discovered in the laboratory. This showed that the conditions in space were unusual and that unusual chemical processes were taking place, and they were then producing molecules that we didn't expect. In fact, the chemistry on the earth is rather special — it's the sort of chemistry we're used to doing at the temperature on the earth in the conditions that occur on the earth, but interspatial space the conditions are quite different and so, in fact, it turns out the chemistry is different, and so also we find that there are molecules that we don't expect. One thing that we did was find that there were molecules much, much bigger than was expected in the sense that there were many, many more carbon atoms involved than had previously been thought possible, and even now we just do not understand the processes whereby they are formed. Are you saying that there are molecules out there in space which we just cannot form ourselves in a laboratory? There are molecules in space that we would have great difficulty making in the laboratory. I think we could do it now that we know something more about space. Yes, we could probably make them, but they would be rather difficult. For one reason, space is almost a vacuum, so that molecules erm are few and far between, and one thing about chemistry it is really the science of not particularly molecules but molecules that react with one another, but here once one has got a molecule in space it doesn't actually meet another one for a very long time, so even a molecule that is reactive and which may only last for maybe a microsecond in the laboratory, interstellar space it may last for a thousand years. So we find that there's an intriguing chemistry going on in space that it would be very difficult for us to reproduce in the laboratory. But I think the ingenuity of chemists and scientists and physicists and astronomers is such that, yes, we could do it — if we knew what we were looking for and had the right ideas. What we're finding is that the discoveries in interstellar space are making us try new experiments and erm try and reproduce these conditions, perhaps in the laboratory, and then go on to discover new molecules in space and understand the processes that give rise to the molecules. How did people think that prebiotic organic compounds were formed before this discovery in outer space? Some rather nice experiments were carried out, perhaps in the Forties and Fifties, by Uray and Miller, who thought that the early atmosphere mainly contained methane, water and ammonia, mainly hydrogenated species which were thermodynamically stable, and they thought that perhaps if one put a discharge or if volcanic processes could actually inject energy into such a system and form the more complicated and more energetic molecules required for biology to actually get started. Now this is a good idea, and in fact there's a fair amount of circumstantial evidence that geologists and astronomers who know something about the earth's atmosphere have looked into to suggest that this is quite a feasible mechanism for the formation of prebiotic molecules. Now the curious thing was that if you looked at the early atmosphere, the molecules in that were the molecules that we expected to see in interstellar space. After the violent conditions that erm we think occurred in the early life of the earth and injected energy and churned up the atmosphere and formed the prebiotic molecules, we find that just those same molecules are actually in the clouds in space, and these clouds are the basic raw material from which stars and plants form in the first place, so we might ask the question could they have got into the earth's atmosphere without this intermediate process, and I think there are mechanisms whereby these molecules can accrete into the earth's atmosphere, and it certainly suggests that we should look at thse and certainly not be taken as a foregone conclusion that the Uray/Miller experiments are the only mechanism whereby the prebiotic soup was formed. You say that you found interstellar space being pretty cold, there are some variations of temperature within it, aren't there? Well temperature, of course, is a very complicated thing, but let's assume we do understand what temperature means. There are regions of space, and for the most part in these dense clouds between the stars, that have temperatures perhaps ten degrees above absolute zero, maybe as much as fifty degrees above absolute zero, so that's about minus two hundred and fifty degrees centigrade. But what happens in these clouds is that certain parts of them, certain areas of the cloud start to collapse, and as they collapse the temperature rises and the collapse increases, and as the temperature rises through a thousand to a million degrees we find that these are the regions where stars form, and it is really the major discovery, as far as astronomy is concerned, of the radio research that we now know a lot more about the early stages of star formation. And as we believe that erm the earth and the sun were formed at the same time, so we're starting to know a lot more about the original material from which the sun and the earth were formed, and here we find that it's just full of prebiotic molecules which we did not know beforehand and therefore puts a different perspective on what we think the earth's early atmosphere might have been. How was the astronomy actually done? Well I had a colleague in Canada who's a very close friend of mind, and erm I knew that he had actually done some radio astronomy. He was a chemist himself, or a physicist, working on similar sorts of problems, and I wrote to him and said was he interested in looking at one of my molecules, and he wrote back and said he was very interested because it was, in fact, as I'd thought, a rather intriguing next step in our understanding and we got together with the Canadian group in Ottowa to try and set up a programme for observing these particular types of molecule in interstellar space. It was, in fact, at the time just erm well let's try it and see. I didn't have very much hope because it was really much more complicated than any other molecule that had been discovered. It was almost a quantum leap in some ways. And to our great surprise this molecule was, in fact, quite abundant. Then the next step was very clear — that we should make the next molecule, which was rather more complicated, and look for that. To our disbelief it was really very much more abundant than we could ever have thought possible, so we've actually been able to find molecules with eleven carbon atoms in a chain, floating around in space, and for which we really at the present time have no explanation. And astronomers would never have looked in that area, in that region, perhaps radio astronomy, unless you'd asked them to? Well I certainly wouldn't have thought about it, and I don't think any chemist would have believed it, and in fact what happened was it really came from this other esoteric sort of project that we were doing. Had I wanted to do something in astronomy, which I did actually want to do because I'd taken an interest in it, in fact I would not have thought of this type of molecule. It was just not even in question. It was just ‘oh well, this might be interesting. It is a bit unlikely, but let's try it.’ Then it turned out to be rather unusually abundant and erm we now have the problem of trying to understand why it's there in the first place. One interesting feature of this discovery seems to me that it's been a combination of different individuals approaching it almost laterally, in a sense, because you're not an astronomer, particularly, are you? No, I'm not even an astronomer now really in many ways. I mean I've never looked through a telescope. I mean I have helped to run a radio telescope. We don't actually look at that — a radio telescope is a rather superb radio set with a rather large ariel. And all this started with you actually putting an undergraduate student on the project? Yes, one of the nice aspects of astronomy is that it brings people from many different areas of science together. What actually happened was that a colleague of mine, Dave Walton and I, got together to look at a rather esoteric aspect of molecular motion, thinking of making molecules which were very, very long and had very simple structure but could have perhaps erm very complicated what we call dynamic motion, but there was some very good chemistry involved and we erm put this project together for the Sussex Chemistry Bithesis programme, and erm the student who took on this particular project, Alexander, spent two years learning how to do the synthesis and developed a lot of ability in this area; he also learned how to do the spectroscopic experiments and studied the analysis of molecular motion, and he was able to do this on top of the course work that he did, and in fact this particular project and Alexander, who did the work himself, and the subsequent exciting sort of repercussions of the project have all made me a rather firm believer in the course here, and that in fact undergraduates can do research and also that it's a very good training for the future. Thank you very much, Harry. Hello. In this short series we're exploring some of the boundaries of science — the limits to what we can measure or experience, limits that exist in space, time, temperature and so on. Last week, for example we were looking at the mind boggling distances that we encounter when we journey across the universe. Today we travel to the other extreme and enter the microscopic world of the atom and its nucleus. Jim Byrne is a physicist who work as the university. I recently asked him how large an atom is. Well, of course, there are big atoms and small atoms hydrogen is a very small atom, uranium is a big atom — but something of the order of ten to the minus eight of a centimetre. Roughly a hundred million atoms per centimetre. So that means if you could line up a hundred million atoms you'd just reach one centimetre? Just about one centimetre for relatively small atoms, yes. And virtually all matter is composed of atoms? All matter that we know is composed of atoms. The familiar matter that we deal with in our ordinary life, that's jsut atoms, yes. And putting combinations of atoms together you get molecules and up to really rather long and complicated molecules? That's so, indeed. That's going in one direction of building up. mhm And going in the other direction, what do you have inside atoms? Are atoms solid things, or are they all space or what? No, atoms are not solid things. This is the great discovery that Rutherford and his erm collaborators made forty/fifty years ago. In fact atoms are almost entirely made up of free space. Essentially, what you have inside an atom is you have a very small mass of core, called the nucleus, and around this nucleus you have lighter particles called electrons, which orbit in closed orbits. Now this is the picture that we have. These are negative particles and the nucleus is made up of positively charged and neutral particles and the combination is kept together by electrostatic forces. So the nucleus itself is not solid. It itself consists of particles? Well of course it's rather more solid than the atom is. I mean if you think that an atom is, as we said, typically ten to the minus eight of a centimetre, then a nucleus is typically ten to the minus twelve of a centimetre, so that's four orders of magnitude down, so the nucleus itself, if you scaled the whole thing down by a factor of ten to the four, the neucleus itself again is made up of a fair amount of free space and loss of particles inside it. If you've got a positive nucleus and you've got electrons, negative particles going round it, and the two attract each other, why don't they just all collapse together? Well of course this was the great argument that went on. I mean when Rutherford did his experiments years and years ago he produced his planetary model of the nucleus, of the atom where the nucleus plays the role of the sun and the electrons play the role of the planets, and people said well why don't they just spiral in an erm Rutherford had actually no answer to this, but the answer to this was produced by the Danish physicist Nils Bore, who said ‘Well they don't spiral in because erm electrons cannot just take up any orbit, they can take up certain specified orbits which he called stationary states, and there is a lowest one of these, and when the electron gets down there it cannot go any further. Well, I'm sure that's the right answer, but we're already getting a little bit complicated in our vision of what's happening. Let's go inside the nucleus a little bit. The nucleus isn't solid, it consists of other particles — what sort of particles are these? Well, erm the nucleus is not solid, but the particles in it are much more massive than electrons. If you look at the particles inside the nucleus you have a proton, which is a positively charged particle, and it's about two thousand times more massive than an electron, and you have also have another type of particle in there called a neutron, and a neutron is to all practical intents and purposes it's just like a proton except that it has no charge, and so the whole mass of the atom is actually concentrated inside the nucleus. The electrons balance the forces of course, but they don't really contribute to the mass. So what we have inside the nucleus, we have two kinds of particle, the neutron, which is uncharged, and the proton which is positively charged. And you get smaller particles out of the neutrons and protons? Well, you can get hosts of smaller particles if you do various things. I mean you're getting into quite deep water here. Let's go back a little bit. I mean if you ask what happens when electrons drop down from one orbit to another inside the atom, the emit light, which is the thing we are familiar with, but erm physicists tend to think of this as particles which they call photons. Now, we you have neutrons and protons, they interact one with the other, but the particle that carries the interaction is not the photon, it's the new particle called the meson, and you have got smaller particles, much less massive particles than neutrons and protons, and these are called mesons or pye mesons, and the pye meson has erm a mass which is typically a tenth of that of a proton. So if you collide neutrons and protons, bang them one off the other, you can produce these mesons. How do you know these particles actually exist? Well I mean how do you know that, for example, light exists? I mean if you put your hand up to the sun you can feel it, you detect it, your eyes detect it, well you have detectors which detect them and, for example, if I want to detect something like an electron well then I can make a counter which is sensitive to charged particles like electrons, and I can allow these electrons to hit this counter and it will produce erm an identifiable electrical pulse and I can look at that and I can say this is an electron, or I can look at other particles, say, for things like helium nuclei which are called alpha particles, and I can make counters which will detect these and I can put a little piece of paper in front and I can stop off the alpha particles. We know they exist because we can do things with them. We can actually see practical effects which follow from usin them. You can't see a proton because proton is too small erm the only things that you can see are microscopic bodies and again you only infer the existence of these microscopic bodies because you actually detect the light that comes from them. Somehow or other your miond analyzes the light that it receives from these bodies and tells you about them. In a sense you can do the same thing, of course, with erm elementary particles like neutrons and protons, but the process of interpretation is much more complicated. Continuing our journey to ever smaller particles, can we break up the pye meson into anything smaller? Well you don't actually have to do that with the pye meson because if it erm if you have a pye meson it just breaks up itself. If erm, for example, I were to produce a beam of pye mesons, which I can do by taking very high energy protons and making them collide with ordinary hydrogen, then the pyon will come out and it will not live for very long, and I think the lifetime of a pyon is something of the order of ten to the minus eight of a second, which means that pyons only live for about one hundred millionth of a second, and these things then decay into othe particles and these other particles are called muons and they decay into not only do they produce muons, but they produce things called neutrinos and the muons themselves do not live for very long — a muon lives for about two microseconds, which is two millionths of a second — and it decays also into an electron and another neutral particle called a neutrionor, and these neutrinors just are there, they exist very but they are the end products of these decay processes. You mentioned, very straightforwardly, experiments to find these particles — in fact aren't the experiments rather complicated and requiring big, expensive bits of equipment? To produce things like pyons, yes, they are. You see the thing is produce something like a pyon you have to create enough energy to make it, and in order to create enough energy the you have to produce particles colliding at very high speeds, and in order to produce these particles you have to accelerate them. Modern accelerators tend to be rather large machines to produce the very high energy particles required to produce new particles. Of course pyons have been around now for so long that you don't need high energy machines to produce pyons. In America and Canada there are things called pyon factories that'll actually produce massive numbers of pyons for you without any great problems. And going ever smaller, can you get from neutrinors to smaller particles? From neutrinors? Well we haven't really discussed neutrionors yet. We should leave the neutrionors aside for the time being. erm we really got as far as the neutrons and the protons. Well, of course, again if you want to see what a neutron or a proton is made of, I mean a neutron is a very small thing and a proton is a very small thing — it's about ten to the minus thirteen centimetres across. And if you're going to try and look inside one of these things then you're going to have to use very high energy particles, which in quantum physics means something that is very short wavelength that you can actually look inside, and when you look inside these things by, say, scattering electrons from them, very high energy electrons, it appears that inside a proton and inside a neutron is mainly again just free space, and there are other point like objects inside these particles, and these objects are know as quarks . Now no-one's ever seen a quark for the simple reason that no-one has ever managed to produced a free quark. It appears that neutrons and protons are made up of quarks. Each neutron and each protons has got three — they have three quarks each — and these quarks have got very peculiar properties. The main one that people are interested in, of course, is that they don't have integral charge. They don't have one unit of charge. A quark supposedly has one third charge or two thirds charge, but nobody has ever managed to actually produced a free quark, but people do believe they exist because they explain almost all the properties that neutrons and protons have, and other particles. When people talk about quarks they use words like colour and charm and strangeness and other things. They do, yes. I suppose we should really begin at the word strangeness because the word strangeness goes back to the late Fifties, early Sixties, when some people discovered particles more massive than neutrons and protons and these particles were discovered in the erm cosmic radiation, and they were also produced by accelerators in laboratories. Now what happened was that these particles had very peculiar K properties. For example, they lived very much longer than one would have expected, and Gellmann said well these were strange particles and he invented a new quantum number called a strangeness, and then he assumed that this strangeness quantum number was not quite conserved. erm we have conserved quantum numbers in physics like the charge — you have to conserve the charge, but you don't quite have to conserve the strangeness. So this was a new strange quantum number, and I think really what happened as new quantum numbers became necessary to describe the new types of particles, people just began to think of more sort of strange names like charm and beauty and erm things like this, but they have no real connection with what we normally understand by charm and beauty, they are just quantum numbers. Jim, can we go on forever? Will we find even smaller particles in future years? That's a matter of guesswork. I don't think anybody knows the answer to that. I imagine that we will. I mean in the past in has always turned out that what people have thought to be elementary turns out never to be elementary. I mean at one stage we go back a hundred years — back to Dalton he thought of his atoms as being fundamental entities that could never be broken up, whereas now we know that an atom is a very complicated structure and we can measure things about atoms, we can measure the distribution, we can where the electrons and so on are. Nuclei — there's been a tremendous amount of work done on nuclei. We know the shapes of nuclei. We know there are round ones, there are long thin ones, there are cigar shaped ones, there are disc shaped ones. They turned out not to be elementary at all, they are complex things. Neutrons and protons are now believed not to be elementary, that inside them they have quarks. Even now there are theories which say that quarks are made up of other things and so on, so I mean who knows. I think simply it's unknown. Jim, I'd love to keep going here and ask you a whole lot more questions. Unfortunately that's all the time we have today. Next week there'll be another programme in our series Ideas in Action. Until next week then, goodbye. Hello. In this short series we're looking at the boundaries of science, and we're asking questions such as‘How cold can we get?’ and ‘What is the smallest particle that we can envisage?’. Today, by contrast, we're going to the other extreme. We're going to peer into space and try to imagine the huge distances involved. Our guide is Robert Smith, who's an astronomer at the university. Robert, let's start by trying to put ourselves into context. We're on a planet. Yes, and this planet is moving round the sun, which is part of the solar system. The solar system contains not only our own planet, but also many other planets, at varying distances from the sun. And the whole size of the solar system is something like forty astronomical units. We're going to have to talk about what astronomical units are in a moment, but let's go on in terms of size. We're part of this particular system, what comes next? The sun is just a star, one of many thousands of millions of stars in our own galaxy, which is the milky way, which we see as we look up in the sky on a very dark night, and it was called the milky way by the ancients because it looked like a splash of milk across the sky, but we now know that it's a flattened system consisting of these thousands of millions of stars. So we're actually part of the milky way system, the galaxy? Yes. Which is the milky way? Yes. Are there many other galaxies in the universe? Oh yes. There are thousands of galaxies. Millions indeed. Our galaxy is just an ordinary galaxy among many others. It's part of what's called the local group of galaxies which contains about thirty galaxies. It is, in fact, one of the two largest galaxies in that group and nearby, in astronomical terms at least, there are other such groups containing thirty/forty/fifty galaxies maybe, and these galaxies themselves, these groups, are clustered into larger groups and these groups are glustered into even larger groups, so there are clusters of clusters of clusters of galaxies, right out to the furthest reaches of space. All right. Let's go back to distances. Now you mentioned an astronomical unit, what's that? Yes, well that's just the name the astronomers use for the mean distance, the average distance, of the earth from the sun. It's a convenient unit, perhaps a useful way of thinking about it is in terms of the time that light takes about eight minutes to reach us from the sun. So what you're saying, in terms of the eight minutes, is that something, an event which happens on the sun, which is visible, takes about eight minutes to reach us. Yes, if the sun were to go out now we wouldn't know about it for eight minutes. You've talked about many, many galaxies and so forth. What sort of distance is there involved there? Well, the unit that we use there is the light year, which is the distance that light can travel in one year, and the nearest stars are about a light year away. The furthest galaxies are about three thousand million light years away. Three thousand million light years — that really is a huge distance. Yes. Now if we try and get some idea of what this distance may correspond to, light travels at what sort of speed? Well, it travels at about three hundred thousand kilometres per second, or if you prefer the normal British units, a hundred and eighty six thousand miles per second. A hundred and eighty six thousand miles per second. What's the fastest that humans can travel? Oh, my goodness. In miles per second that's not so easy, but humans have travelled at perhaps a few tens of miles per second in a spacecraft. A few tens. So we're talking about seveal thousands, if not getting closer to millions, of the speed that a human being would possibly travel? Yes. So if we're talking about something talking about something taking a light year to reach us in terms of light, any possibility of human contact we're talking about millions of years, probably, rather than a few years. Yes. And that's, I think, important because it gives us some concept of how far we would have to go to get there, as it were, apart from seeing it. Yes, that's right. It would be very difficult even to to get to the nearest start. It would take many thousands of years. Now light, presumably erm one of the reasons one chooses a light year as a unit or a distance is because it's a convenient number, but also presumably because it doesn't change very much with any physical factor. I mean light is travels at a pretty constant speed, doesn't it? That's right. In fact the speed of light is now defined to be a constant. So that's a good starting point. Yes. You've talked about fairly large distances, distances that you couldn't possibly measure with tape measures and using normal methods of measurement, how on earth do you know these distances are the kind you describe? That's a very good question. Light itself can be used as a sort of tape measure. For example, for distances within the solar system, distances to the planets and to the sun, we can use radar methods. I think this is probably familiar to most people. A radar beam is one that you send out and it bounces off the thing you're trying to measure the distance of and then the beam comes back and is picked up again and you measure the time between the beam going out and the beam coming back, and that's twice the time it takes for the beam to get to the object and back again. So if you know how fast the beam is going, and that's in fact the speed of light, then you know how far away the object is, and you can do this for the planets. It's been done for Venus and for Mercury about twenty years ago. How accurately would you be able to make these measurements? How confident are you that they are correct? Quite remarkably accurate. The basic astronomical unit is, in fact, known to about one part in a million. So that's radar. That'll get you a certain distance, but that pre-supposes you can actually bounce something back, doesn't it? That's right. So what happens if you can't bounce something back? Well you can't use that method, and indeed radar can't be used outside the solar system. The next method that is used is a method which again is familiar to people on the earth — surveyors use it all the time — and that's what we call triangulation, and the idea there is that if you look at a distant object against an even more distant background, then the apparent direction will depend on where you're standing, and if you move from one end to the other of a baseline, then a distant steeple, for example, will appear to move against the hills on the horizon. But, Robert, we on earth must have a very small baseline compared with the big distances we're trying to measure? Oh yes. I'm just trying to give you and idea of how the method works. Obviously you can't use any baseline that you can actually travel on foot from one end after the other, but we can use the astronomical unit itself as a baseline because the earth is moving round the sun. It goes once round the sun every year. That's what we mean by the year, and at opposite sides of its orbit a nearby star, for example, will appear to be in different directions relative the background of very much fainter, more distant stars, and we can use that to see how far away it is. And that get us up to a certain distance, but even then that method must fail when you get beyond a certain distance. Oh yes. Yes. That method can be used to distances of about a hundred light years. Beyond that the angles involved become just too small to be measured and we have to use a quite different kind of technique which involves knowing something about the properties of the objects we're looking at. And we talk about standard light bulbs — the idea here is that take a terrestrial example again, suppose you're looking out at night and you see a light approaching you, if it's a cyclist with a very faint light then you'll not see him until he's quite close. If it's a motorcar with very powerful headlights you'll see it very much further away. So we want to get bright objects that we can see at great distances, but we also need to know something about what it is we're looking at. If we saw the cyclist close to and the motorist a long way away, they would look about the same. So the distance makes something look rather fainter, and similarly if you have something like a particular kind of start that you can identify by some property — which we'll perhaps talk about in a moment — if you can identify it and you know how bright it is, then the fainter ones are further away and you can estimate the distance by how faint they are. What happens, Robert, if the stars aren't actually fixed distance, but they're actually moving, either towards us or away from us. Doesn't that mess up you approach? It does, but the stars, although they're moving fast by terrestrial standards, are moving very slowly by comparison with the vast distances we're talking about, and they don't change their distances by very much in the time that we're watching. So what about the things that we occasionally hear of colour shifts and so on— is that relevant to what we're talking about at the moment? That is a way of measuring the speeds at which stars and galaxies are moving away from us. The effect here is similar to listening to a train whistle. As the train goes past erm you get a note that goes . The frequency changes as the train passes and the high note is when the train is coming towards us and the low one when the train is going away, and you get the same effect with light except that instead of being high and low it's blue shifted if the object is coming towards us and red if it's going away. Do we actually have blue shift stars? I've heard of red shifts. Oh yes. We have both do we? Stars near the sun have both well some have blue shifts and some have red shifts, so they're moving in all directions relative to the sun. All right, now we've got pretty well way out — have we been able to reach the furthest objects in space by these methods, or are we stil stuck for a method? Well, by an extension of the this standard light bulb method you can get most of the way into the universe. The nearby galaxies you can reach using a kind of special variable star. It varies in brightness and the way that it varies picks it out. Its a sort of signature — you can recognise that particular kind of star — it's called a sephied variable, and we know how bright that is and so we can use that to get distances to nearby galaxies. For very distant objects these stars themselves are too faint to be visible, but if you look at clusters of galaxies, we find that the very brightest galaxy in a cluster is the same brightness in all clusters and so the fainter it looks to us the further away the cluster of galaxies must be. And then we come to the red shift, in fact, that you were talking about a minute ago. Because although stars near to us show both red shifts and blue shifts, distant galaxies show only red shifts, and that means that all the galaxies that we can see are moving away from us. The universe, in fact, is expanding (although that's another talk really) and for the present purpose the important thing is that they're moving away at a speed which increases with their distance and so if we can measure the speed that they're moving away from us, then we can find their distance, and that takes us to the edge of the universe. Are there events taking place that we will never ever see because they're so far away, or maybe they're taking place in such a way that they're moving away faster than the light is travelling in our direction? No, they won't be moving away faster than light is travelling because the theory of relativity says that nothing can move faster than light, but there are certainly things which may be happening now which we shall not learn about for thousands of millions of years because they are so far away. And when you look far into space, you're also looking back in time and we're looking back when we look at the very most distant objects. We're looking right back to the beginning of the universe. And, lastly, if you went into space and you really went very fast and for a long, long time, would you ever reach an edge? Would you ever reach an end? Would you ever reach a boundary? That's disputed at the moment. erm I think the consensus is that you wouldn't — that either space is infinite, or at the very least it it's finite it has no edge, so if you went in one direction for long enough you would come back in the other direction. Robert, the mind literally boggles at those distances mine does, anyway. So does mine. Thank you very much. I'd love to talk to you more about this, but I'm afraid that's all that we have time for today. Hello. Peter Simpson is a chemist at the university. It's a long time ago since I did any chemistry. It was at school, and my memories of chemistry is laboratories full of stink bombs, full of bangs, and rather unpleasant chemicals. Has chemistry changed very much over the years, Peter? Well it's probably a good deal less smelly and bangy than once it was. The Health and Safety at Work Act has made us rather more concerned about smells and bangs and the dangers these cause, so perhaps life is a little bit less smelly than it was, perhaps a little less exciting, but it ought to be a little longer too. On a more serious note, has chemistry changed as a subject very much over the last, dare I say, twenty five years? Well, yes, I think it has. There have been scientific developments, of course, in chemistry, but perhaps it's seen now as being more important in the context of the contribution it's making to other important areas such as biology, environmental science and so forth . At school one did a certain amount of chemistry, and then at university one did what was possibly a slightly different subject. Is that still true, or is the chemistry at school very similar to the chemistry that one would do at university? I think it's probably fairly similar, but of course it gets more sophisticated, both in terms of the intellectual level at which you talk about chemistry, the concepts and so forth, and also in terms of the sort of experiments you can do because we have such sophisticated apparatus now, which you couldn't possibly get in a school laboratory. So we can do more sophisticated things experimentally and intellectually I would say. Now does that matter, so far as being at school is concerned, if they can't really do proper experiments does that mean to say they can't do proper chemistry? I wouldn't say that they couldn't do proper experiments at school, I don't think that's right. It's just that we do rather more sophisticated versions sometimes of very similar things which are done at school, but they might be done more precisely, simply in a rather more sophisticated way. But I am sure that if someone found they liked doing chemistry at school they're likely to find that they like continuing to do it at university, and vice versa. If it turns them off at school it will probably turn them off at university. Taking your point that chemistry at university is a privileged subject in so far as that the equipment available is more sophisticated, more expense, more accurate, possibly, surely universities ought to be doing something to help kids in schools? Well, yes, that's absolutely right, and I think we've always taken it as part of our responsibilities here really that they should extend over towards students in schools as well as students here at the university, and we do of course do quite a lot, in various ways, across the science area, to contribute towards science in schools. Tell me some of the things that we do. Well the science area as a whole has a number of activities. For example, we organise an annual school science lecture. This takes place in late November and on two separate evenings we fill our largest lecture theatre with local school children from both sides of the county, sometimes a little bit further afield, and that means that we're giving them an illustrated lecture by one of our more distinguished colleagues, and we entertain and inform, I think, something like eight hundred school children every year in that alone. And that's something that possibly the public don't know about. Wel it doesn't get a great deal of publicity in the media, and of course we only circulate information about it to schools, so I'm sure that the man in the street probably has never heard of it. What sort of subjects will we tackle at these November lectures? Well we try to span right over the range of science. We've had lectures in the biology area, in physics, in engineering and in chemistry, so that we've really spanned the whole shooting match really as far as that goes, and of course we try to put something into these lectures for those doing the most advanced work in the sixth form and also for those doing O levels, let's say, and some who are younger even than that. We try in other words to hit a variety of targets of different ages, right across the spectrum. That's one big lecture in the year. Are there occasions when there are other opportunities for kids to meet university people, perhaps hear them speak about their subjects? Well again the science area as a whole puts out a very large list of lecture titles, which it is prepared to deliver in schools. Now this is very much a voluntary activity on the part of those who give the lectures, but neverthless we have an extremely large list, right across the science area, of lecture titles and lecturers, people who are prepared to go out and do this in schools, and of course they get an opportunity to meet teachers and students in schools in this way. You talk about a large list erm how many possible lectures are there on the list? Oh, I should say of the four science schools on average we've got maybe thirty or forty titles from each, so that's about well certainly well over a hundred titles altogether. And how many schools avail themselves of this opportunity each year? It's a little bit variable, I think, from our own science school — one science school to another — and from year to year, but I would say maybe twenty or thirty for each science school. And any school can get a lecturer to come out, subject to availability of course, to give one of these? Well we generally aim to have I suppose most of our lectures at an A level standard, but we have a significant number for those doing O level, indeed some lectures which can be tailored for either, so anybody very mucg below O level we probably couldn't cater for — I think probably because we wouldn't feel competent, rather than because we don't want to do it. So some of the lectures are actually aimed at A level students. Certainly, yes. Others at O level students. Right. And some could be given at either level? Well they might be tailored a little bit according to the level, but basically it's a similar lecture. Do they come with demonstrations? Usually this is so, but of course the lecturers they are very different in their approaches — some will use this illustration approach more than others. And if there are any teachers that want to know about this, they could get details by contacting you, Peter Simpson, at the university? They could indeed, yes, at the School of Chemistry and Molecular Sciences. Good. Now that's lecturing, what other contacts do we have with schools? Well, as a chemist perhaps you'll forgive me for dwelling largely on what we as chemists do, but of course it's not only the chemists in the School of Chemistry and Molecular Sciences who do things for schools — it's right across the area — but each year, for example, we have a week set aside for sixth form visits, in which parties of sixth formers come to the School and we're about to talk to them about university entrance, about what goes on in universities, but, most importantly, to show them some of the apparatus which they don't have at school but which they've probably heard about. I think we've settled down to a pattern of events now which schools have actually indicated to us is what they want to see. And what time of the year does this happen? This is in the summer. This year I think it's the first week in July we have set aside for this purpose. And again arrangements are made between schools and the university to accommodate groups of children, or Right. We send out details to the schools each year, and they will book to bring a party of children round for, oh it lasts about two and a half hours altogether, and they will come either for a morning or for an afternoon. We in physics have two or three opportunities for sixth formers, fifth formers to come to the university and find out a little bit more about physics. We run a lower sixth form residential summer school for kids, which has been very popular for the past five years. We also run a summer school called Women into Physics, which is a rather strange title, but the idea basically is to persuade, if not encourage, young girls who have just taken their O levels that physics is a subject which could be for them — it's not unladylike about being a scientist and, in particular, being a physicist. Do you do anything like this in chemistry, Peter. Well, not quite like this. I think this merely emphasises that each school is operating its own erm thing, as it were. But I must say I'm very encouraged to see the numbers of women who are applying to do subjects like chemistry and physics is going up and certainly we would applaud that sort of activity. I think as chemists we would be glad to see more and more women come into the subject. Do you think that there is a disadvantage to being a woman at school, so far as a science subject's concerned? Do you think that teachers really don't expect them to do well in the sciences and perhaps even positively discourage them from going into science? I doubt whether this is done deliberately, but I think it's part of everybody's perception of science in schools that girls do biology and boys do chemistry and physics, and I suppose this is bound to have its affect on people's choices, but I personally, and I think most of my colleagues would agree with me on this, see no reason to suppose that girls should be any less good at chemistry and physics than boys. Are they at any form of disadvantage when they come to university studying a science subject such as chemistry? I don't think so. I don't think so at all. It's interesting, actually, since I teach a first year class of biologists, where we do have rather more girls than boys, that erm as a class it works very well, possibly better than some of our own chemistry classes where there are fewer girls, and I don't know whether this is because of the mix or not. And certainly if they come for interview, if they apply to the university, they get a very good chance of entrance. Oh certainly, yes, there's no question of discriminating against women. We're looking for good candidates whether they're men or women. Peter, the things we're talking about are highly commendable, but I suspect at the back of the minds of most kids at school the question of examinations — whether they're going to get their O level, or their A level, or their G C E or whatever — to what extent are university people involved in examining? Well we're involved in actual fact to quite a heavy extent. Within our own School two of us are actually senior examiners for one examining board and this brings us into contact with teachers and indeed candidates. It helps a great deal to keep us in touch with what's happening at school and enables us to exert some influence, I suppose, on what happens in schools, hopefully in the interests of the candidates. Do you find a resistance to change in schools in terms of the examination syllabus and content? I think possibly the reverse. There have been an enormous series of changes over the last ten or fifteen years, and maybe some school teachers would be glad if it slowed down a little bit to make their life a little easier, I don't know. Sir Keith Joseph has recently gone on record as saying that he wished that examiners could be more objective in their assessment of what children know. Is there any application of this in chemistry that you can see? Is there a body of chemistry that, if you knew it, you're all right, as it were , you could pass a certain exam and if you didn't know it, or is chemistry a little bit subjective in terms of its assessment? Well there's an element of subjectiveness, inevitably, in an assessment, I think, but of course we are aware of this problem and we do try to be a objective as we possibly can. We try to set ourselves specific aims and objectives and when it comes to marking scripts, for example, we have a quite specific mark scheme which has been very carefully thrased out, not only with examiners, but with certain school teachers, which we try to make tie this down as be as objective as we can, but there's always and element of subjectivity. If there are four marks for a given point, the candidate who gets it all right gets four, the candidate who gets it all wrong gets nothing, but the chap who gets it part right has a possibility of one, two or three, and it's often a question of judgement as to what an imperfect answer is worth. Do you use multiple choice papers in examinations these days? Yes, most Boards do, I think, but to varying extents. I think probably something like twenty per cent of the marks for most Boards will go on the multiple choice erm paper. We use multiple choice question papers in physics too. I'm always a little bit worried about them because it seems to me that they almost define the syllabus in terms of what you can ask four reasonable questions in terms of alternatives about. Well I wouldn't like to see an exam system which was entirely multiple choice questions for just that reason. I would also like to see skills of writing and arguing developed and tested. But they are particularly easy to mark, but I suspect they give us a false sense of objectivity and I think we sometimes give the statistics a little bit too much weight. Lastly, in terms of chemistry as a career, is it a good career these days, Peter? Well my feeling is that students who graduate from here ultimately get jobs. Many of them, of course, not in chemistry. There are fewer jobs in chemistry than there used to be. In an economic upturn that may change, of course, but I think they all get jobs of some sort, and I would have hoped that a chemistry degree, a good training in chemistry, would in fact also train people to think in such a way that they could apply it to a lot of other areas. Chemists have traditionally taken employment in other areas anyway. Lots of chemists have made very good chartered accountants, for example, but I would like to see very many more — let's say science trained people going out into the professions, particularly into politics. So it's a training for life, not just a training for being a chemist? I would like to think so. Peter, thank you very much. That's all that we have time for today. Next Hello. In our series about computers we're looking at applications in all sorts of different areas, and today we're going to talk about how they're used in medicine. Would you tell your symptoms to an electronic box? I recently asked Dr Jim Hunter whether in the future diagnosis would be by computer rather than by doctor. Yes and no I suppose. I think we're taking first faltering steps in this direction at the moment. Is a computer better than a doctor? Well, the studies that I've been involved in, the computer has performed certainly as well as a consultant, and at times much better than a junior doctor in the particular situation that I'm talking about. It sounds to me as if it could be a bit worrying to think that when you went to see your doctor you'd be faced by a machine instead of a human being the other side of desk. Well there are two answers to that I suppose. One is that we're certainly nowhere near that. All of the uses that I know of diagnostic computers are involve the doctor talking to the patient, looking at the patient, taking symptoms and then going and using the computer in a similar way that we perhaps might go and ask for an x-ray. The other answer is that erm certainly some trials have been done with patients not being diagnosed by a computer, but by giving initial information like their age, their date of birth, erm where the pain is, etc. erm actually interacting themselves with the computer, and studies have shown curiously that patients actually prefer to use a computer rather than to give this information to a doctor. Now why this should be, I don't know. Whether it's because they feel they're not taking up the valuable time of a doctor, they can go at their own pace, who knows? But certainly it may even be that people might, in the future, even prefer to talk to computers under some circumstances. That sounds absolutely fascinating. I suppose one advantage of a computer is that it can store and remember a great deal of information. Yes. The if I can talk perhaps a little bit about the particular system that I'm interested in, the way it works is that it well it diagnoses abdominal pain; if you go into the erm particular casualty department — in the fact the Royal Sussex County Hospital at the moment — with back pain in your abdomen, lower abdomen, then the symptoms will be taken by a doctor and he will then go to the diagnostic computer and feed these symptoms in. These cover a large range of things, like the patient's age, the patient's sex, where the pain is, where it started, how quickly it came on, and so on and so forth, and essentially within the computer has a large table, and this table contains, how shall I put it, the frequency with which this particular symptom was associated with a particular disease over the last few hundred patients that have been seen at that hospital. It's very limited. It only deals with the acute abdomen. It deals with pains like appendicitis, coley cystitis, which is inflammation of the gall bladder — about nine different diseases — and it merely says to you at the end of the operation based on the last five or six hundred patients I've seen, the probability of this patient having appendicitis is ninety per cent, the probability of something else being ten per cent . So, yes, it has a big database of about oh three thousand numbers, and it just looks these up essentially. So it could be used as a preliminary check for patients, more or less on a routine basis? Before the doctors or the consultant actually sees a patient, then Well not before the doctor sees the patient, because much of the information that is fed in would have to be gain, acquired, by somebody with a good deal of medical knowledge. When I say ‘Where is the pain?’ and questions like this, this could be answered just by asking the patient, but there are erm various kinds of tests — one lovely test called Murphy's test, for example— which have to be carried out by a qualified doctor or a qualified medical person, so it's not a question of must being hooked onto the computer and the computer giving the answer. It's an aid to the doctor for making diagnoses, not a diagnostic instrument in itself. Is there anything special about this sort of computer? Is it an ordinary digital computer of the sort that's used in commerce and industry, or is it a special type of computer. Is it the program or is it the computer that's specific? It's the program that's very specific to this problem. erm the one at the Royal Sussex is perhaps interesting, in that in fact it's the computer is based on a microprocessor, so it really is using the latest erm in advanced microtechnology. The computer itself is a box, oh what, a foot and a half by a foot by two feet, very small. erm but it's the program, yes, it's the application of complex programs to thee very sophisticated but very small computers, I think, which is of interest in this particular case. mhm And how many places in this country are computers actually used in diagnosis? Oh, there you have me. I don't know in general. This particular system erm for diagnosing the acute abdomen, acute abdominal pain, we got the basic ideal from a hospital in Edinburgh. They in turn got it from a hospital in Leeds, and I know of one other implementation in Sheffield of this particular system, so there may be two or three others that I don't know about, perhaps four or five in this country, of this particular type. erm of more general types, I really don't know. Not very many. Is it used much more in the United States where medicine is much more expensive altogether? Yes, certainly, the erm place where such diagnostic systems came from, I think, was certainly the States, and most research has been done there — Stanford in particular has been very much involved in this so-called expert system. You do this research in collaboration with the Royal Sussex Hospital. Is that where the idea came from originally? The original idea came from a Doctor Dedombar in Leeds. This his system was implemented in one or two places, including Edinburgh, and our current ideas essentially came from Edinburgh, from Bangor Hospital near Edinburgh. The consultant down here who got interested is a Mr Philip Somerville, who's a senior consultant at the Royal Sussex. He visited Edinburgh, saw what they were doing there, liked it and decided to see whether it could be done at Sussex and approached the university through the Bi-Medical Engineering Group, of which I'm a member, and I was interested. We did a lot of talking, of course, and then it was decided that we could possibly raise some money by going to the League of Friends, which we did, and they very generously provided well in fact the whole total is about five thousand pounds, of which three and a half thousands represents the computer, and we're about to go live, as it were , in a week or two. So far we've only had particular doctors using it to run it in, as it were, but in the very near future we hope that all of the doctors in the accident department will be using this system. Do you have a medical background at all? None whatsoever. So you do have to rely very heavily on collaboration with the local doctors? Oh indeed. This is one very good aspect of such projects, I think, that the interesting work is to be done at the interface between one discipline — medicine in this case and another discipline — computer science — where both people just have to learn to talk to each other in their own language. That's part of the problem in doing such research, certainly. Do you think that it could ever be true that they would be sufficiently inexpensive that they could be used in most doctors' surgeries, or is it going to be something which is only used in one or two important hospitals? Oh no. I think expense certainly won't be a problem. I can very well see such prices going down and down and down well certainly to several hundred pounds. In particular, if one started to make such systems much more, how shall I put it,tailor the electronics to the purpose, then the cost could be quite low. At the moment we're dealing with a general purpose system, which is designed for all sorts of applications, and one pays for having a thing general purpose by costing more money. Certainly it's feasible to have them in G Ps surgeries. I would, myself, be very keen to look at the possibility of such machines perhaps even going to third world countries, because it's even arguable that the place for such intelligence systems is not to replace expert medical people in this country where we have such people, but to export them to developing countries which don't have such people, and one could imagine, perhaps, a system of erm paramedical orderlies, who had some sort of medical knowledge and manipulative skill, taking a small expert computer in a shoe box — it would be no bigger — to villages and getting diagnoses of patient illnesses there on the spot. So it would make a great deal of difference in areas where there's very little available in the way of medical services. What's the future, then? You've worked out a program or a system for acute erm stomach pains — are you planning to move onto other areas and gradually build up a catalogue of aches and pains in the body, or what? Well this particular system that I'm working on a the moment is really unintelligent. It, as I said earlier, really just looks up a table of data values, numerical values, and comes up with an answer and you can't question it, you can't ask it why did you get that particular answer. erm it doesn't give an answer, but if you could the only answer it could give is that what my tables say is wrong. Now there is a class of systems, so-called expert systems, which have come out of artificial intelligence research, which can do much more than that, are much more intelligent. Internally, they mirror the structure of an expert's thought, in this case of a doctor's thoughts, which tends to be much more. If I see this and if I see that, then that means something else, and that something else taken in conjunction with something else that I see might suggest so and so, and so on. This is the way that people think, people reason. This isn't the way that the current system reasons, and I would certainly like to take the current system and push it in this direction of being more expert in a human sense. I think one of the great areas of such as system is in teaching young doctors, in training people, and an expert who can't tell a tutee why he has given a certain answer isn't really much good as a teacher. I think to be a good teaching aid something has to say ‘Well I think this because’ and, as it were, retrace the chain of reasoning that I've just the sort of chain that I've given you. So that, I think, is where this research ought to go, into truly expert systems rather than in statistical machines, which is what it is at the moment. So what you would see is the machine, as it were, engaging the patient in a much more perhaps conversational mode and with much more feedback and response to the way in which the patient is answering the questions or behaving, rather than just, as it were , a machine which elicits information from the patient and compares it with a statistical set of data. Yes, whether one would ever actually get such a system interacting with a patient is difficult to foresee. It's possible, I suppose, but I think a lot of research has to be done on the way interaction takes place. I think we've got to work out better ways of machines interacting with doctors, perhaps before we're ready to move on to machines interacting with patients. Well that sounds absolutely fascinating. I believe there's one other area in which you're working, and that is putting computers together to simulate visual interpretation of some kind. Is that so? Yes. erm this is a more abstract research project, which is concerned with the idea that we may, very soon perhaps, reach the limit of what we can cram onto a silicon chip. That being so, the only way to get more computing power to attack any given problem — and the sort of problems I'm interested in are very complex problems — the only way to get enough computing power to tackle these may be to make a number of computers work together in co-operation; what we call multiprocessor systems or, since we're interested in microprocessors, small computers, we talk about multimicroprocessor systems. A particular research project that I and two colleagues, Keith Baker and Erin Sloman, have a grant from the Science Research Council for is to look first of all at the problems of getting such as system with, well at the moment three but possibly up to twelve computers, working on a given existing artificial intelligence problem to see how to take this big program — it's called Popeye — it's a research project to study various areas of visual perception, as you say — to see how to break this down and have it running simultaneously on a number of much smaller computers, rather than on the single big computer that it's running on at the moment. The second half of the project is concerned really with how on earth we get such program to work, such programs are very complicated, they interact in various odd ways, and getting the bugs out, getting the problems out or debugging as the jargon has it, is a really serious problem and we hope to make some advance on the problem of erm developing programs for such distributed multi-processor systems. Thank you very much, Jim, for talking about this research. however, we're going to examine quite a different area how computer can help librarians to make better use of their stock. Peter Stone is a librarian at the university. Peter, how useful have you found the computer in our library? Well, first of all I suppose one should say that we don't just use one computer, we, like lots of other libraries, have got access to a large number of computers, and indeed you'll find these computers being used elsewhere for the same sort of work. Probably most people have seen displays of Prestel, even in television rental shops, which is a system running through the Post Office network, accessing large amounts of mainly factual information — things like telephone directories, like timetables, like oh a lot of business information. That's very effective if you're dealing with factual information which is changing fairly rapidly, and I think we'll see quite a growth of that in the next few years, but libraries aren't just stores of factual information, they store a large number of books and articles and they need access to that too, and probably the most typical external use of a computer in libraries in a university library, or academic library, these days is to access the huge stores of information on scientific publishing. There's one gigantic computer in California, which has got access to a hundred databases there called the stores of information, compiled mainly by the publishers of journals. It's got thirty million articles in it and you can find information, pull out articles relevant to your needs by looking for authors, looking for words in the text, and you can look at the summary of the article very quickly. In both Prestel and those sorts of things as you use the system you pay, and you pay for the telecommunications cost, you pay for the computer cost and you pay for the information that you receive, and that sort of worthwhile sharing of information, I am sure, is going to grow. However, my own interest, perhaps, is more in what a library, a typical library — not just a university library can do with its own computer, and most of our readers, most of the people who use libraries, expect to find books in those libraries and expect to find them when they want them, and our interests have been angled very much towards improving that sort of service. So there's a sense in which you use a computer for all sorts of different purposes. You use a computer when books are issued, for example? Yes. I'm sure most people by now are quite familiar with the use of computers in this way. In fact, in about 1971 there was a sudden spate of development in this area, and both the university library and what was then Brighton Public Library, and West Sussex, all were innovators in those days, using computer-based lending systems, which used little cards with lots of little holes in them, and I am sure they are familiar to lots of people. In the last few years you'll have seen those holes replaced by sort of zebra stripes — what we call bar codes in the trade, and those bar codes you'll also see on your groceries all over the place. That's an interesting problem, the way we communicate to a computer is not the way we necessarily think of it. You can only distinguish your library card from that of a book by a difference in the thickness of one line. It's just a thick line for humans and a thin line for books, possibly, but it works and we haven't had any problems. So when you are actually checking out a book the librarian runs a little light pen, is it, over the code, so that it That's it. Well there again there's a compromise. We all know how to use pens, we were taught how to use pen in primary school, but the computer can't read our writing yet, so we use something which looks like a pen, but is reading something which doesn't look like letters of the alphabet and words, but which it can understand and understand very quickly and very accurately indeed. And presumably the advantage of using a computer for that is much greater than the mere erm saving of time in a librarian taking out a card and putting it in a wallet or a card folder or something like that, because you can retain in your computer a lot of information about what books are in the library and what books are out with lenders and so on. Right. That information is only part of the very large store of information that we need to retain in our own local computer, which contains records about, oh it's about a hundred and fifty thousand of our four hundred and fifty thousand different books at this moment. Going back on what I said earlier on, East Sussex County Library, for example, keep their records of books, their catalogue, on a system which is run from the British Library, and the Polytechnic draws that sort of information from a co-operative which was originally based in Birmingham. We've chosen to go it alone, but the net result is the same, that the computer store of information includes information on the authors and the titles of the books and, of course, now includes information on the books that are being borrowed, who's got them, when they're coming back, how many other copies we've got, whether we've got copies on order, and all of that, all in one central store of information, a central store which can be shared by everyone using the library. mhm And I suppose in the old days if you actually wanted to know which books were popular and which books were not used at all you had to send a librarian to painstakingly look through the shelves, perhaps, and look at the date stamps or something like that, whereas now it's presumably just a question of pressing a few buttons and the information comes. Well right. In the old days we simply couldn't afford to do that. We're not dealing with a thousand items, we're dealing with four hundred and fifty thousand items, and for anyone to go and collect that information on a larger scale even sampling it would have been almost unthinkable. Now the computer can collect this sort of information as people borrow the books, as a sort of by-product if you like. The book is lent, it needs to be known when it's gone out, when it's due back, but the computer can clock up one. That bit of information adds to other bits of information, all within the central store. We know what the price of the book was. We had to pay for it, so we had to send off a bill and therefore it knows what the price is. We have to put a shelf mark on the book so that we can shelve the book, but that tells us quite a lot about the subject. And if you start putting those three things together, the Librarian, as manager of his library, can start to put all this information together. In fact the computer digests it for him to give him and overview of how effective his operation is, when he should be buying extra copies, when perhaps he should be thinking of not buying quite so much, or being a little more selective. But the reader gains as well because he sees it from a different angle. Most of our users come into the library looking for a very specific book. About eighty per cent of the users are students, and they've normally been told to read this, or read that, or read the other and if they now use one of our computer terminals, which has got a little video screen on the top and a little keyboard, they can look up the books. They can look the up by title, by the title of the book, as well as by the traditional author approach, and when they've found it the computer tells them how many copies are in the library or whether or they're all on loan. It's all drawing information from this same central store of information. It's a way of sharing information amongst a lot of different people for a lot of different reasons, information which previously would have been separated and almost impossible to put together without a great deal of effort. Let's hark back to what you were saying earlier about information storage on a very large scale. You mentioned the explosion of information, particularly in the science area where there are thousands, literally thousands, of publications and scientists producing more information, more data every day and pumping into these things. Do you think it's going to ultimately change the whole notion of publishing? Do you think that perhaps in due course publishing will move into an area in which you wouldn't ever actually print anything, you would actually put it into a machine. Yes. Well it's very interesting, but I'm not sure it's working in the same direction as almost implied by your question of implying that there was almost too much. One of the more fascinating changes has been the introduction of word processing equipment, whereby someone who types his article can just sent off something like a floppy disk to his publisher, and without much intervention it appears as the printed article. The publisher, traditionally, needs to sell at least a thousand copies of that to be worth even advertising it, but this means that you can print an extra copy whenever you want and this then implies and even larger and larger growth in more and more specialised information which only computers can manage, and one hesitates to work out where the end of all this is. The human race is producing so much information. It isn't factual information, we're not just looking at price movements of stocks and shares, but in the scientific community it's very much to do with ideas and how that person can get across his ideas, his concepts, to people half a world away. That's a very complicated question. And you mentioned then how a floppy disk, that's a sort of disk storage device, can be used to get a book printed. Is this being used at all in practice, or is it just a daydream? Oh yes, indeed, a close friend of mine has been working on a history of a very large British company and he's just seen the proofs produced from the printers from the typescript which was typed in his own office, and apart from the fact that their computers can change the typefaces and improve the whole thing, the work has not had to be rekeyboarded, as they would say, retyped in, at all. It does save things very considerably. It's part of this way in which the computer can turn information over and over again for a different need. I saw in publishing a very nice example of that — not the word processing — but at John Wylies, who are very big scientific publishers in Chichester, where they had a computer system which the editor — he's the person who deals with the author, puts the book together — set about ordering the book, the orders and that information went into the computer, when the thing was printed it went into the warehouse and the computer then organised the storage of all of these things in the warehouse. Orders came in, and that helped the warehouse unpack the boxes and despatch them. The information got fed back to the editor to tell him what the sales were. It was a continuous process, and all of the people tended to see the computer as working very much for them rather than for the other department next door. And presumably if you wanted to revise a book at all and you had the book on your floppy disk or in your computer in some form, you could again use your word processor to bring it up to date in a revised version? Well that is I think everyone who's ever worked on computers, editing or word processing, has been very fascinated by the change of attitude that they've had, that somehow it isn't finished, it's never finished. Previously you could ask someone to type up first draft, second draft, maybe a third draft, but how far can you drive your secretary — and now they can be wholly in charge of this. They can change the layout of it as much as the words within it. They can ask colleagues to come in and comment and you can add a little bit. Could you revise paragraph ten, Fred? That sort of thing goes on continuously. The thing is moulded under your eyes, and a recent book which has been very popular in the university Gödel Esher Bach which is on some of the aspects of artificial intelligence and ideas, has in its preface got quite a long article on how the author actually organised all of the processes, right through to the final printing of that book, and indeed even wrote the programs for formatting the text, and it has obviously been very stimulating for him. He could organise the final output of everything that he had thought right from beginning through to end. Well thank you very much, Peter, that most interesting. That's all that we have time for today. Hello. In our Ideas in Action programme I shall be talking to Dr Mike King about teaching science to very young children in schools. I shall be asking him questions such as‘Is it a good idea for parents to encourage their children to become interested in science by buying them toys, such as a chemistry sets, for Christmas’. Well they're a lot of fun and kids love them, and as I commented a little earlier to somebody I still haven't quite forgiven my mother-in-law for the chemistry set she bought my seven year old. He is absolutely amazed by it and spends lots of time in the garage and the back, which actually means that I spend an awful lot of time in that garage in the cold too. There is an exhibition of science carried out by children in first schools in Brighton and Hove at the Booth Museum, Dyke Road, this week. It's open to the public on Tuesday, Wednesday, and Friday. Hello. Science is thought of as a subject that is difficult both to teach and to learn. The folklore in school terms is that you have to be a relatively ancient teenager to appreciate physics and chemistry and biology. Is this true? Today I have with me Dr Mike King, who's made a study of science teaching in schools. Mike, how early can science be taught to children? Well I think that rather depends on saying fairly concisely what it is we mean by science. If in a sense it means how early can you teach children facts and contents and very straightforward knowledge, then I think the answer is not very early at all because it may be fairly meaningless that you could teach a child to repeat Newton's law, perhaps the same way as you could teach him to repeat the eleven times table, but without a good concept of number or what Newton meant. It's probably something they could learn off parrot fashion, but doesn't have any actual meaning for them. But if you look at science as a way of exploring their world, a world they can structure their curiosity about aspects of the physical world, about aspects of the environment, then I think we can do it very early indeed, probably from the time children can come to school at the age of five and from reception classes onwards. In fact, we do run a project which looks at the ways science can be taught in the first school, which has been very surprising to me and many of my colleagues by what can actually be done with children in the ages of five to seven. For most young children in that age group, the world's a magic place and we traditionally like to teach them nature study and flowers and cuddly hamsters and rabbits in school, and that's the nature table syndrome, and that's great and I'm not knocking that at all. There is so much opportunity for children to look at the nature of the physical world around them which isn't taken advantage of, and which could be, and I think that may have something to do with the attitude of teachers as much as the attitude of children. But erm they're tremendously curious about the nature of the world around them and they're certainly capable of, if not understanding why, exploring what. I took my godson, Dominic Robinson, round my laboratory the other day, which is a physics laboratory, and he enjoyed it immensely and asked a number of questions, and was absolutely intrigued and fascinated by the various bits of wires and plugs and so on like that, and he asked me the sort of questions that I don't think I would expect sometimes my undergraduates to ask. They were perhaps stemmed from innocence, but they were very searching and very real questions, and he was obviously very excited to ask them and to listen to some of the answers. Do you think we perhaps put kids off an interest in science by our sort of insistence that they have to have a solid understanding of Newton's laws and all sorts of principles, and we lose the magic too early? Yes, I'm sure we do, and I think that's to do with our notions of what science is. There's a mystique which has built up about it. Anybody who's worked in graduate or postgraduate level in science likes almost to continue that mystique. Yes, we do put children off by being rigid because a child, I am sure, doesn't see the world in a rigid way. What's out there is all out there. Bits of his universe are to do with art and colour and drawing. I mean if you watch a child, and I have a seven year old boy, playing stacking cards or dominoes is the current thing in our house, watching them stack them and then knocking them off and watching them fall and the way they fall, the amount of work which is involved there in structures and forces and the nature of gravity and the way things behave under gravity fascinate them. The problem, of course, is most of us couldn't give a sensible reply to the very searching questions they ask, so we tend to say something like ‘that's a fascinating questions, but you'll have to wait till you're older and ask a scientist’. That's not the children's mistake, that's ours, because we couldn't actually for the best part respond in a meaningful way. And in another sense what we don't do often is to actually recognize the significance of the child's question because of the language he puts it in. He asks something which, you know, I mean the way they do, what is life, and you wouldn't know — unless you're perhaps trained or awake to the significance of what the child is actually asking — you wouldn't know how to respond to that, so you tend to put it off. You mentioned that schools are quite good at biology, that they have guinea pigs and they have growing plants and so forth, and I think you hinted at the fact that they perhaps are not quite so good at maybe the harder sciences, we might call them, of physics and chemistry. Is that the case and, if so, what can we do about it at an early stage? I believe that is the case, and I believe that again is a reflection of us as adults erm and not an indictment of teachers. They show great pedagogic skills in almost every aspect of school life. Most of us, as people who live in this world, are interested in our environment, and even if not young we certainly grow to appreciate it and to learn a bit about flowers and the way animals live and work in our garden and watching David Attenborough on television and erm we have a genuine interest because as part of this world we know it and come to understand it, and probably feel, therefore, if even if you're not a biology specialist, which you certainly don't have to be by any means, when a child asks a question about, you know, ‘where do the flies go in winter?’ and ‘why's the hamster gone to sleep for three months?’we feel more capable of answering it because we're closer to it ourselves and those are the sorts of questions that people told us. When a child asks a question about something dropping from a height — does it get faster and it falls for longer and longer?— that probably is a question that most teachers who are not trained in the physical sciences just cannot answer. What can we do about it? I think at the end it must come down to two things; one basically a change in attitude — we have to come to recognise that we live in a very, very technological society, that most of us were born before man walked on the moon, but the kids in school were born in an age when man had walked on the moon ten years ago and they live in a world which is very scientific, and we have to recognise that — and the other one is practical sense, I think, where we really have to look seriously to in-service training of teachers, a) and b) we have to look carefully at the way we train teachers now. In many institutions which train primary and first school teachers, the teachers themselves have an option as to whether they can do a science course or not and then even if they do it it's usually very biologically biased erm towards the natural sciences. At Sussex we actually make a third of the time they spend on the university component of their courses compulsory work in science — that is to say every student does it — so we can actually do something about it practically by looking at our processes of initial training and coming to realise what an important section of the world this is and training teachers accordingly, and not to leave it at that but to continue with erm progressive and planned in-service training of teachers. Our own experience from several of the projects that we've been looking at which are in-service type projects, is that when we do train teachers and when we do put an investment in it, we see the pay-off in the schools that physical science does get done in schools, it is fun and it is exciting. It's when the teachers think this is a boring, mundane, difficult thing to do, then that tends to be put over to the children and of course the disaster is that the children will believe it, and it if the children will believe it then we grow up in a highly technological society producing very few technologists or scientists. What you describe does sound a little bit like a chicken and egg situation from the point of view that I think you were saying that erm many teachers are ill-equipped, actually, to teach erm physics, perhaps, and chemistry, whereas they are a little bit better able to get across fundamental ideas in biology, and in a sense because of this they are going to produce another generation who perhaps have very ill-founded ideas of these basic sciences and so on and so forth, and somehow one's got to cut into this cycle and actually improve it, improve the output somehow. Yes, the chicken and egg syndrome is interesting because and I agree it is a vicious circle, but in fact you don't make new omelettes unless you do break some eggs, and I think the time has come to break some eggs and I think that's what I'm advocating is that it will come from the teacher because the teacher is the guiding light of what happens in the classroom, and if the teacher has it in the back of their mind there will be no science, then there will be no science. If, on the other hand, the teacher has it in the back of their mind always to be aware of the possibility of bringing into the work that's going on in the classroom and bringing all they're usually very excellent pedagogic skills to bear on it, aspects of the physical sciences, so that the children can get an early and meaningful introduction to it, then it will happen. The question is how do you break into the cycle and make that happen, and I think the answer is, as I said, in two ways — one by making teachers more aware during their period of initial training, either at college or at university or polytechnic, and secondly by looking very carefully at the amount and type of in-service training erm that goes on for teachers once they've left college and are in the schools. Essentially what you're saying is that a teacher who's actually teaching you ought to be able to say to that teacher ‘look, here's a package, if you like, that you can insert into your range of skills, and these are of things that you can do with children which are worthwhile doing and fairly easily for you to acquire skills yourself, and they will be very good and helpful for the children’. Well I'd only say that initially erm because then what you end up with is a sort of lucky dip which every now and then somebody will remember the bag of science tricks that somebody's taught them and dip into. Now I think that's better than nothing, but I think one has to take it a stage further than that and say that erm the concepts and the processes in science do build logically one upon the other, in a coherent and meaningful way, and that's important for teachers to appreciate what that meaningful sequence is and that, you know, the lucky dip idea is, as I have said, better than nothing, but it's so much inferior to the notion that teachers should be aware that there is a progression in science and that they can teach children progressively from a very early age onwards and build meaningful knowledge upon meaningful knowledge. Is there anything that parents can do? Christmas is coming up and there are chemistry sets in the shops. Do these make good gifts from a scientific point of view? Well they're a lot of fun and kids love them. As I commented a little earlier to somebody, I still haven't quite forgiven my mother-in-law for the chemistry set she bought my seven-year-old. He is absolutely amazed by it and spends lots of time in a garage at the back, which actually means that I spend an awful lot of time in that garage in the cold too! Yes, they are good sets and they do they are exciting for children. They do enjoy them and they do make good use of them. Quite often they need a lot of erm time spent by the parent with the child, and if the parent's happy with that they're fine. None of them, or very few of them, if you buy a good quality one is dangerous. It's very important, I think, that erm you match the age of the child to the age which is written on the box, because then the child will actually be handling materials that he can physically handle and ideas that he can physically cope with or intellectually cope with. So they are probably very useful erm toys, educational toys, to have in the home, but I think for the child to get the maximum from them they do he often does require an adult with him. How about electronic kits and circuits? Are they worthwhile, would you say? Yes, they are; they are very much. Again, it's a question of matching the kit to the age of the child because some of them erm — the one we have at home, for example, plugs into the mains and although it only pushes out six or nine volts at the end the child actually does have to plug it in and, well I don't think I'd be happy if my six or seven year old was doing that, although my nine year old could cope with it quite happily. So they are useful erm children can learn a lot. What I like about them and where I think their strengths are is that they do put science, the physical sciences, in that bracket of activity which is fun, excitement and leisure and enjoyment and that it moves away from the notion that it's something you do on a wet Friday afternoon at school. Thank you very much, Mike. In our series on education we've talked about many aspects of school life, including the extent to which they are open or closed societies and various features of the curriculum. But so far we haven't said much about schools as organisations. Today I have with me Tony Bailey from the university; Bob Glover, who is Principal of Portslade Community College; and John Werner, who is Head of Stanley Deason High School. Tony, are schools today very different from the schools of the past? Well I'm not sure I'm a very competent person to answer that question Brian, but I hope erm Bob and John might move to that. My research interests are just in schools today. I think perhaps one difference is they've become much larger and more complicated and I certainly think that parents in particular tend to expect far more of schools now than they used to. Schools are very large and complex organisations. I mean there are over a thousand people, sometimes two thousand people there, and in this erm complex organisation I think headmasters are very important people; they're responsible for developing a style of organisation which is, I think, very significant. They influence the education of children in enormously important ways, not just in terms of how many exams they pass, what results they get at O level or C S E, but on important issues such as education for democracy, the kind of climate that schools create for young people is very important in the way they see society and they see their role in it. So from my point of view it's very important to have contact with head teachers and to talk with them about these things, and to create a situation in which they can talk to each other. Bob, are you erm head teacher in any classical sense, or are you more a manager? Well I think of myself, probably arrogantly, as an educational leader, but that certainly would include management as well as being an academic. If I can just say something about the management to start off with. I think sometimes people who don't actually work in schools imagine that the schools are managed, in the financial organisational sense, by the Local Education Authority, and that in some way the head of the school is merely concerned with discipline, curriculum and so on, but one has to bear in mind that the sheer size of some of these schools now makes the head a manager in a very real sense. I mean I have to cope with about five thousand different individuals each week erm at Portslade Community College, erm fifteen hundred full-time eleven to eighteen year olds, and the rest adults from the community coming in to use the college. Now if I don't exercise some management skill, and of course more and more recently financial erm acumen as well, one's going to have a situation approaching chaos. I think the first point to make is erm that schools, and particularly community colleges, are now very complicated places, and it would be quite wrong for a head of an establishment like that to think of himself as an academic in an ivory tower, because if he did erm the organisation would become entangled, the money would run out, and in fact he wouldn't have the kind of institution he wants. Do you have the same views, though, John. Well I agree with what Bob has said. When parents come round the school, what they sometimes say is ‘My goodness we never had all these facilities’, so at a very superficial level you could say that is a big change. After the War, I suppose, and in the Fifties, when schools were seen as places preparing young people for a very different world, different kinds of resources were put in. One can read about, and see on television, schools which are pioneering and really are genuinely different, but I think they're very much the exception. And while it's very reassuring that schools haven't changed too much — I don't think we want everything to change overnight — I think you could say that schools are open to the same criticism as of British industry at the moment, that they are institutions which perhaps are changing too slowly for the demands of the modern world. Tony Bailey, when he was talking just now, talked in terms of schools perhaps having an element of democracy within them. Is that actually possible in a school? Can a school be a democratic organisation in any real sense? Well I'm probably regarded as being of a point just to the right of Ghengis Khan on these matters. erm a great deal is talked about democracy in schools and you very often have all kinds of organisations allegedly which take democratic decisions. In fact, if anything goes wrong at Portslade Community College it's my fault, and therefore I'm not going to be in a position where I don't feel able to take responsibility for any decision made. Any true democracy of the sort that you might have in a university, if you do, is really impossible in schools and that one reason because of what the law says, the other reason of course is the age of the people you're dealing with. In the old days, life was simple in schools in the sense that if pupils didn't do what they were supposed to do you thrashed them, or made them stand in the corner, or expelled them. How do you actually make pupils do things? Well I think I must take issue with you when you talk about the old days. erm I doubt if it really was like that come on! And I think that the question of making people do things, that's something in all societies which doesn't change too much. There's a question of how much force you use and how much persuasion you use. I remember when my school opened, or just before it did, erm I got the staff together for a conference for a day, and got another East Sussex Head, James Quinn, who came along and talked to them, and one of the things he said was now for the next week or two, whatever John Werner says goes. If he says stand on your head you will, but after that he's got to do it all by persuasion. The question of democracy is a very difficult one and it operates on different levels. On one level you can ask, not so much democracy within the school, but the question of accountability to the community it serves — who should run the school, how much should parents be involved, what's the role of Governors? There's that side of things, and I hope that that is changing, alas again too slowly erm I think the Taylor report, which firmly came down on the side of more lay control of schools by parents and members of the community, put up and unanswerable case. I've never seen it answered, but erm that didn't prevent the professionals from shelving it. But nevertheless, quietly, the community is getting more and more involved and having a bigger say at that level. When you come to internal democracy and how much, say, the pupils have, I agree with Bob that is a very tricky one and certainly you can't just transplant erm democracy onto what is really a rather authoritarian system, you'd have to prepare and train pupils much more than we do and what I think is the most dangerous thing is playing at democracy which I am sure we should not do in schools. I think that some people may not realise fully too is that in order to make a decision you have to be full informed, and teachers are very busy people and a teacher really is spending nearly every moment of his day either teaching or preparing to teach, and it's impossible, therefore, to establish in a school or a community college the faculty committee structure that one might have in a university, where people do probably spend some time informing themselves before debate. erm it's a very great problem. One would like very often to have more erm people involved in decision making, but they simply don't have the time to inform themselves and one or two experiments in the kind of democracy you might Brian might have had in mind, came to horrible grief where decisions were taken simply uninformed and where the small number of people present who were informed weren't able to persuade the majority and the history of education is littered with them most unfortunate examples of this. I think the approach of parents is very often really quite a simple one erm that they have a number of very well defined expectations of the school and that is as far as one individual parent is concerned, that the parents wants the child to go to the school, he wants that child properly controlled, provided that it's done in the way in which he particularly approves, and if you have fifteen hundred different parents there might be fourteen hundred and eighty five different techniques at work here, and then he wants the child simultaneously to be successful and happy. And traditionally, I find, British parents tend to erm say on the one hand we'll let the school get on and do their professional job — I find it quite depressing they don't ask for more say in the organisation, but they do demand, quite rightly, the right to criticise when things go wrong. Now this may be because we're on the way from one position to another, or it may be a traditional British approach, but I find this personally a great source of pressure because on the one hand I recognise as a parent myself one's going to have a crucial interest in the education of one's child, on the other hand how one reconciles those hundreds of different philosophies and then superimposes upon it a professional approach is, I suppose, the greatest single source of strain I find running a large secondary school, particularly, as I said before, in the end the responsibility in law is mine. I would say you could defend the British position because what it seems to me to be based on is first of all the idea that the institution itself should make the decision, and that surely is a democratic start, that you don't lay down a rule from Newcastle to John O'Groats, or wherever, and that the people in the institution have a certain chemistry together. What may suit one place won't suit another. I think secondly erm whichever country, and you do look back to your roots, and we for better or for worse here look back to the great public school headmaster of a century ago and I still think people want that kind of dynamic drive, that entrepreneurial drive, and who's to say they're wrong? And I think what we're looking for is a kind of situation where everyone can play their proper part in the decision-making, but allow the person with the energy and drive to play their part as well in giving a lead, and I'm not sure that's such a bad thing. Equally, I think we like to set up experiments first before plunging for something, so you have got in Countess Thorpe , or the Stantonbury Campus, experiments in a fuller kind of democracy which appear to be very successful if a little controversial. On the other hand, there are many places which are moving far more cautiously. But at least people feel secure in those places and move gradually towards something. So I think we could be too pessimistic about this. I also feel, Brian, we may be avoiding the question that or the part of this question which some of our listeners may be particularly interest in, and Bob did touch upon it, which is have things changed much in democracy in the classroom, is there a change? I think there are some significant ones. Michael Marland has talked about the disappearance of deference and I think that's the biggest change really that the kind of instant erm response to authority has gone and that has good and bad sides in it, so more is demanded of the teacher because his authority has to be earned, much more even than in the past I think. So if you handle it well, we'll move forward. If we don't learn how to handle that particularly well, we won't, but I think we should assure reassure parents that schools are full of good disciplinarians and that, democracy or no democracy, classrooms are in control. I think you've always got to be aware too that what goes on in schools does, and should, reflect what's going on out of schools. One of the things that I think is most unfortunate is that parents sometimes say to their youngsters ‘You need to go to school in order to learn how to behave’. I would respond with some vigour that they need to go home to learn how to behave, so that the present themselves at school in the situation where we can exercise our professional job of teaching them. The unfortunately British idea that at school, as well as a place of learning and a place where you grow from a child into an adult, is a kind of military disciplinary academy, I think is most unfortunate. erm I have two children and I have found that it was quite a full-time job persuading them of the virtue of certain old-fashioned ways of going about things. I would not, for one moment, pretend erm that it is my job to inculcate those virtues in fifteen hundred. I hope, though, there are fifteen hundred families in Portslade who are doing that job, not for me but for them, so that we can carry out the important educational processes that go on within the college. And so, parents that may be listening, it sounds as if it's up to you to provide the basic training to enable the schools to do their part. That's all that we have time for today. Thank you very much, gentlemen. Michael, you're interested in evaluation in education. What do you mean by evaluation? Well I think of evaluation as the process by which a person or a group of people have a fairly careful look at something they're doing in order to try and decide whether it's going well or badly, whether there are things in it they might wish to improve, and how valuable they think it is whether they might want to make changes in it in any way. So you're interested in, for example, teaching of subjects such as history or mathematics in schools and the evaluation in a total sense of this? Yes, well I don't particularly limit the area of what I'm interested, but if someone who was particularly interested in seeing how history was going over in this school, then I'd be very happy in discussing with them how they might try and find out how successful history teaching was in that school for example. Or perhaps one might just narrow it a bit further than that and say well let's see how history is going in the first two years, or the O level history course, or something like that, and we would discuss well given that all these different people are involved in history or have a stake in it in some way, or are interested in it, and given that you're only going to have a very limited amount of time to do anything in, how can you do something that would be genuinely useful to the school in looking at the history teaching and something that would have the support of the people involved so that it wasn't threatening anybody but they felt there was something being genuinely helpful. Could you give me an example of one or two erm evaluation exercises you're engaged in at the moment? Well I get involved in it in so many different ways erm this is a difficult one, but one of the things that happens is that a number of teachers, both from the area and elsewhere, erm do advanced courses at the university and as part of these courses we have a unit on evaluation, and for this they will choose some area of their school work which they and their colleagues — and I emphasise that this is something they do have to involve their colleagues back at school in very much — erm feel it would be useful to look at and then they try and discuss with their colleagues what aspects of it are important and significant and what ought to be seen, and they bring this discussion back and we all discuss together there'll be different teachers working on different problems the different ways in which they could approach this problem and how they might most usefully be able to do it and at the end of the exercise they will have found out quite a lot about this particular area of teaching and very often we find that the people they've consulted have themselves got quite interested in it and begun to realize that it's not being done in a way that's there to threaten them, they're not sending a report to the headmaster or the Chief Education Officer or anything like that — it's for the benefit of the people doing the work themselves. And very often erm discussions take place, changes may happen in the school as a result of this work. So although they also may submit it to us as part of their assessment for a project, I mean we're at least as interested in the work being useful to the schools and to the students involved. So that's one major area of involvement. The other one erm is within the university itself because we do have a support organisation here for teaching within the university, and it is possible for groups of teachers in any part of the university to ask for some help and support in looking at one of the courses they're involved in teaching. So we get involved quite a lot in looking at teaching in various parts of the university where people want us to, very often involving the students as well as the other teachers in looking at a particular course and seeing if there are ways in which perhaps it might be taught differently or in a way that worked better. So when you're setting about setting up an evaluation project you consider it very important to get the co-operation of the teachers and staff involved. I think this absolutely vital because in my mind the object of doing an evaluation is to create some kind of improvement in the situation that is being evaluated. Those I'm not interested in producing reports and publications out of evaluation studies, I'm interested in affecting the situation and affecting it to the mutual satisfaction of the people involved in it, and in fact when we're when I'm working with people on an evaluation, or discussing evaluation in general, one of the major items of our discussion always is how can you consult other people, how can you get them involved? And I say to them ‘Look, don't start planning this whole thing on your own from the beginning, go round and talk to the various people you know that are interested and say to them ‘Look, I'm planning to try and do this work, or we agreed at such and such a meeting that I would do this work, but I don't just want to do this on my own, I want to take into account other people's views. Now for example if I'm looking at O level history, what sort of things do you think might be important, or what kinds of evidence do you think I ought to collect, or what issues do you think I ought to take into account?’. So one tries to build up a kind of agenda of all the things that different people involved think might be important before one tries to produce a plan as to how one's going to work, and even then there may be a chance for you actually to discuss the plan with various people as well. Obviously there is a very delicate balance between erm demanding too much of people's time in consulting and talking with you, and not involving them at all, and you have to be very sensitive to how much time people are prepared to give and how much they want to be involved in something. But often I find if you ask people these questions they get very interested erm and this interest is important. If people aren't interested in an evaluation of something that concerns them, then nothing will happen at the end of it. I mean there's no earthly use doing a beautiful piece of evaluation erm which no-one wants to know about at the end, or publishing something that has no affect. People have to be involved in something if they're going to want to do something at the end. I mean if the evaluation suggests that something or other needs changing, then you want people to be already so interested in the evaluation and perhaps looking for useful things to come out of it, that they are already half committed to the changes. One doesn't want them to sort of follow it blindly, of course, one wants them to discuss it carefully , very carefully, but it has to sort of fit into the ongoing life of the institution and not be a kind of little game that someone is playing on their own somewhere because they happen to be linked with the university or doing a degree or something. So you're very careful to avoid imposing your own values on the evaluation process? Well I think it is impossible for anyone to totally avoid bringing in their own values into work that they're doing to some extent, but I think it is possible to deliberately set out to involve the values of other people in the way that you carry out the work. If you do that, then I think that even though your own values are bound to be in it a bit, they won't be in it in a way that makes the work useless or makes it appear hopefully prejudiced to someone else. You see traditionally people used to think of an evaluation as something that was very convergent and first people gathered lots of evidence, and then they wrote a set of recommendations or conclusions, and you were supposed to agree them or follow them afterwards. erm unfortunately life isn't really quite as simple as that. I mean people don't always agree on what evidence means; they don't always agree on what is the best thing to do, erm and I've developed the idea that it's possible to do an evaluation that I like to call divergent in the sense that there might be several different things that one might do as a result of it. For example, if one has found out something about a course, about what's happening on it, how well the pupils are learning, how interested they are in it and what different members of staff think of its value and so on , then you've got a certain amount of evidence about it. Now the next question is what does this evidence mean and what does one do with it. Now here it depends on people's values, where their educational priorities are, what one might do. Now I'm suggesting that an evaluator might, instead of just concentrating on one set of values, deliberately try and look at several, so they might, for example, identify that there were a group of people who felt that history should be taught in a certain particular way for a certain purpose. Now they could then say well that particular group of people, if they looked at this evidence that I've got, would want to say this about it and they would want to change it in such and such a way, and there's another group of people who perhaps have rather different views on what history might be doing and they would view the evidence and argue about it in this way. So one might develop two, three, even four different attitudes towards the evidence, according to what one thought was important. Now my feeling is that in doing an evaluation one ought to try and develop each of these different viewpoints, then leave it to the people concerned that have to make the decisions to pick up each of these and to make the decisions, but at least the evaluation itself is not sort of ruling out of court any of the viewpoints that could be important in that situation, so any person who's involved, even if they're in a minority of one, at least feels that his views are there in the evaluation somewhere and they're made legitimate by it. Well he knows that his views may not necessarily be the majority and count in the end, but at least they're being taken into account and being considered to be important. So I see evaluation as a very democratic activity, which allows people perhaps to appreciate each other 's viewpoints a little more than might otherwise be the case erm and doesn't pretend that people all feel the same about things, but at the same time it doesn't attempt to sort of countermand the realities of the situation that, you know, each person can't go their own sweet way, there have to be quite a lot of collective decisions and people have to recognise where the majority opinion is, but at least they do it from a standpoint that erm where they feel their own value still has some worth and is still being recognised. If you're involving all those concerned with an evaluation exercise, how can you be objective? How do you know you are not distorting the situation totally because everyone know they're taking part in an evaluation exercise? Well there are two sides to that. I mean I think the first is that the kind of evidence one picks up, none of it on its own can be considered, I think, to be totally objective or totally valid, but what it does is it builds up a part of a picture and gradually different sorts of evidence build up a rather more complicated, rather more perhaps accurate picture of a situation, and it's really the cross-checking of different kinds of evidence that in the end gives the thing some kind of validity. The other aspect of the question you raised is really that do you change a situation by the very fact that you're doing an evaluation? Do people sort of artificially put on their best behaviour, as it were, or something like that, and thereby give a sort of rather distorted impression as to what's really going on. Now obviously this can happen a bit, but I don't think, on the whole it happens very much, at least certainly not in a way that matters erm I don't think it does matter if people change things a little bit, because erm but on the whole people are doing things in the way that they're doing them erm because they've got accustomed to doing them that way and that's the way that they've planned it, and that's the way that it comes out as a result of all of those pressures that there are on them. Most professional people are subject to an enormous range of presses and constraints. Even in a school one has to think of a very large number of different pupils with their own different characteristics and strengths and weaknesses, and one has to operate in a classroom and to a timetable and with given resources, and so on and so forth, and the combination of all these pressures and the ways that one has got used to handling them, on the whole, is what makes a person teach the way they do. That, combined with their own personality. And they're not really going to change this very much because someone says well we're involved in an evaluation now. I don't think it's it's not going to change the situation that much. Supposing you have taken part in an evaluation exercise and some conclusions have been mutually agreed, do you find that on the whole people are prepared to change their habits presumably in some cases habits built up over many years? Ah well that's a difficult question. I mean there are obviously some aspects of a school's policy that are relatively easily changed. There are other things that emerge from evaluation that perhaps suggest that at least, not necessarily universally, but for that particular school, with those particular children, with those particular aims, if they want to achieve what they're trying to achieve, then they're going to have to make some rather more or at least some of the people are going to have to make some rather more fundamental changes in the way that they, say, handle children in the classroom, than might otherwise be the case. Now if you get a situation like that I mean the key question is do people actually want to change in this kind of way, or would they at least like to sort of experiment a little bit in the way they handle a group of children? And this is a very, very difficult thing to do because a teacher, I think, sort of maintains control in a classroom and is able to handle the situation because they've developed working routines over a period of years. In a sense this is what it is to become and experienced teacher rather than a novice. One has to develop routines to cope with the situation because it is far too complicated a situation to be handled in any other way. You just cannot pay attention continuously to all the different variables in a situation and remain sane at the end of the day, you have to develop routines and techniques for handling it. Now if anyone asks if you feel for any sense that perhaps some of these routines have perhaps got a bit of become inappropriate in some way, perhaps because you're teaching a different type of child, or perhaps because you've got rather different educational aims, they've changed for some reason, then it's like asking someone to go back to being a novice again in some senses to change. Now this is a very, very difficult thing to ask anyone to do. Now I think it says a lot for teachers as a profession that I think many of them are in fact prepared to have a go at this. But it's something that I think someone can only have a go at if they have a great deal of support and a chance to experiment in a way that still gives them the option erm not to change if they feel that they can't handle it any other way erm so I think there are a lot of difficulties associated with this kind of problem. Now I mean I am interested in this problem, and I have been involved in situations where teachers have sought help in trying to change their teaching style in the classroom, but in all these cases this help the initiative has been very much from the teachers themselves and they've wanted to do it, they've wanted to experiment with it and have been given a lot of support and help with it. But I think I would be giving you the wrong impression if I suggested that most of the evaluation studies with which I've been concerned have involved this kind of conclusion, or this kind of result. Most of them it's been questions of rather less fundamental changes in the actual teaching style in the classroom and sometimes it's been a question of concentrating on rather different kinds of things or giving more time to one kind of activity than another, or changing the pattern of assignments that they gave children, or things that were still well within the capacity of teachers to change without involving sort of fundamental changes in teaching style. So I wouldn't like to give the impression that there aren't very many improvements that can sometimes be found erm that don't involve that kind of fundamental change, I mean I think there many improvements of that kind. What about the effect of examinations on creative teaching staff? Don't you come across many teachers who say something along the lines ‘I'd love to try this experiment’, or ‘I'd like to try this in a different way, but I have C S E or O level or A level coming up for my children in a term or a year and I can't possibly afford to do other than cram them for these examinations’. Oh I think many teachers say that an even more parents say it. erm this is, I think, one of the dilemmas we have in our society at the moment. In fact one of the things that's most disturbed me about some of the recent discussions that have taken place in the great debate has been that on the one hand people have talked about educating people for adult life and learning more about the way people earn their living, learning more about industry, more about productive things, and on the other hand they've been talking about maintaining standards. Now it's one of those unfortunate things that when people talk about maintaining standards, the only sort of, in an sense, external sort of guidance they've got to go for are things like examination passes. Now I don't think many people realized that asking for the maintenance of standards, rather than perhaps the changing of standards, was asking for something that was almost diametrically opposed to asking for an educational system that was more geared towards preparing children for adult life and productive work. erm until some of the people who are putting a lot of pressures on schools to do different things are prepared to resolve some of these contradictions, I think the teachers feel that they're being continually criticised by different groups for not doing different things, many of which are mutually contradictory, erm and not surprisingly they feel a little defensive in this situation. And lastly on the subject of evaluation, a question about the extent to which you think evaluation should take place. Do you think there's enough of it in the educational profession, or do you think that one ought to go in for much more evaluation? Well I think a lot of evaluation does go on. I mean I think part of being a proper professional means that one does attempt to evaluate what one is doing, and I think that most teachers do do this. I think that the issue really is erm are there ways in which perhaps they could be helped to do this more productively, and are there ways in which they could be helped to do this rather more collaboratively than perhaps they have done so in the past? Now my concern is not really with trying to erm get outside people or people in universities to sort of be involved in evaluations necessarily, it's with helping people within schools to acquire more skills in the area of evaluation, so that schools, whenever they feel it would be useful to them, have got enough professional expertise among their own members to be able to perhaps rather more the quality of their evaluation and to see that it gets put perhaps to rather more purpose. In other words to see that they get more benefit for the effort that they put into it. Another aspect of it, I think, is that a lot of evaluation is very intuitive and instinctive. I think this is rightly so, but there is an advantage to knowing to being slightly more explicit about how you're doing it, and I think that if a lot of the evaluation that already went on in schools became a little bit more explicit and a little bit more open, it would be much easier for people outside the schools to realize the extent at which schools were themselves already engaging in evaluation. I think a lot of the current concern about schools being accountable is partly because things that in fact are being done are not being seen to be done, and I think if many of the things that we already done were more obviously being seen to be done, and perhaps also thought through rather more carefully as to how they were being done, the public would feel generally erm happier about what was going on in their schools than perhaps they are at the moment. Michael, thank you very much. Ladies and gentlemen, good evening. It's once again my very pleasant task to welcome you to this, which is the thirty eighth in the series of great centenary lectures, that were inaugurated in this hall in nineteen seventy on a very noteworthy and somewhat stormy occasion. The lectures are part of a larger programme, designed to bring members of the university and of the local community, to bring them together in serious consideration of great issues, great ideas and great people in the sciences, the humanities and the social sciences. And looking round the hall tonight, I think I would be inclined to say that this occasion seems to have been successful in doing that. It is very pleasant to see a full hall on an inclement evening. And I would like in consequence to offer the very warmest welcome to those of you who are visitors to the university. I know there are many, and I know that quite a few of you are students in the classes run by the Centre for Continuing Education. I will not yield to the temptation to reflect on the problems that face this university and the Centre for Continuing Education as part of it, but I think that it's fair to say that in the future we will be hard put to maintain the volume and variety of the contribution we have been trying to make to adult education in the community. Personally, I sincerely hope that we will be able to continue with these open lectures, which I think have been a significant feature of the university's life and of our relationships with the community. In the meantime, it is very pleasant, and indeed it's salutary, to remind ourselves, as we are doing this evening, of what a university is actually about. Among other things, the examination of the nature and impact of scientific theories and research, and to engage in a re-assessment of the status of these theories and the status of their creators in the light of new knowledge and a new climate of thinking and feeling. Now we had no doubt about the inclusion of Charles Darwin's centenary in this series at this point; certainly one of the half dozen most influential figures of the modern world, in reshaping our perceptions of ourselves and of the rest of the world. We couldn't get the centenary of the Origin of Species into our programme — that was nineteen fifty nine and we hadn't started then — but I did persuade tonight's speaker to deliver one of our early centenary lectures on the subject of Darwin's subsequent book, that is the book on the Descent of Man, which appeared in eighteen seventy one, and I am sure that those of you who were there on that occasion in December eighteen seventy one will remember it as a stimulating and lecture. None of seems to have grown much older and I'm certainly show that few of us have grown any wiser in the intervening decade. In the light of all that, ladies and gentlemen, the choice of a speaker for the Charles Darwin centenary was not difficult, and indeed I know that he welcomed the opportunity to give this lecture, not least I'm sure because of the controversies and the general noise that have erupted once again over the issues of evolution, both in the academies of the civilized western world, and even in deepest Arkensaw John Maynard-Smith is our Professor of Biology. He did, in fact, start in an other area of expertise — he took a degree in engineering at the University of Cambridge and worked during the War as an aircraft engineer. I must say that it sheds some light on the state of some of the aircraft that I had to fly in then. He then entered the University College, London, to study zoology and stayed on to work with a very distinguished man, J B S Halldane on the genetics and behaviour of the fruit fly. In passing I have reflected its natural selection and our God had not created the fruit fly, it would have been necessary for biologists to have invented it. In nineteen sixty five, which was rather after I came here, he moved to the University of Sussex, where he became the first Dean of the new School of Biological Sciences, and that was the beginning of a very distinguished contribution to scientific work in this university. John is the author of numerous scientific articles and books, including the Theory of Evolution, which has gone into its third edition — I mean the book. The Evolution of Sex and the Evolution and Theory of Games. I'm delighted that he has accepted the invitation to return after a decade to lecture to us on Charles Darwin. John Maynard-Smith. Just over a year ago, over a thousand biologists gathered at an international meeting in Vancouver. It was, in fact, the second international conference on Evolutionary Biology, not that it's anything to do with what I'm now saying, but the next one is actually going to be right here in 1985 and that'll be nice. But anyway, this was the first we have such a conference every five years, but over a thousand of us sat around for a week and talked about evolution, and there was one rather curious fact about Vancouver, or the media of Vancouver, during that week. I watched the newspapers with a good deal of interest. I could discover no mention whatever of the fact that this conference was going on in its city erm but there was one mention of evolution. There was a full page article announcing Darwinism is dead, which turned out as a matter of fact to be a reprint of an article which had appeared some months earlier in the Sunday Times of this country, erm which in fact was based very largely on some work by a young man called Steele, which none of us, I think, believed at the time, and which was since turned out clearly to have been mistaken. erm it is a little odd that this should have been so. It illustrates something that those of us who work in the field of evolutionary biology sort of grow to live with, which is that anything which casts doubt on Darwin will get a good blow up in the press, on television, and so on. Let me give another very recent example while these rather alarming, in some ways, events were going on in Arkensaw, the London Times — not the Sunday Times now — had as a centre page article by a distinguished cosmologist, Fred Hoyle, announcing to a startled world that he'd suddenly acquired some doubts about evolution. Now the Times has never asked me to write a leading article announcing that I have some doubts about the quantum theory And I do have such doubts but, being a modest person as you know I have always put it down to my ability to understand the subject erm but no such modesty erm it's just another illustration of the same thing. If somebody can be persuaded to say something which is critical of Darwin he can get his name in the papers or on the box. Now erm in some ways actually this makes it rather nice to be an evolutionist because it means that people care, you know, people are actually interested in what you're doing and that's fun. People clearly are interested in what Darwin had to say erm and they mind about whether he was right or not, and I think that many people, I dare say many people in this room, have a wish which they may be conscious of and they may not, sometimes quite a strong wish, that he'll turn out to be wrong. And I think one has to ask themselves why should this be so? I mean they don't feel that way about quantum theory as far as I know. But I do — I'm sure it's wrong But, you know, I know that that's a personal idiosyncrasy. I think the reason why it is so is that Darwinism is, in essence, a theory about the origin of man — a lot of things as well, but it includes a theory about how we came to be here. But it's a theory which doesn't give us an special or privileged role or position in this origin. I mean okay so we're here, but so are elephants and fruit flies and centipedes and tape worms and things erm nothing special about us. erm we're rather successful right now, but we don't play any very special role. People expect of a theory of origins that in some way or other it gives them some quite privileged and special position, and they feel undermined and threatened by a theory of origin which doesn't say something really rather special about them. And it's for this reason, I think, that people quite properly are interested in Darwin's theory of evolution, are worried about it and so on. Now, having started in that light, I may be going to disappoint you by saying that I'm not in fact going to spend the next erm fifty minutes or so talking about the moral, political, philosophical implications of Darwinism. I mean I could do I think they're fascinating and important — but I would prefer instead actually to talk about Darwinism Darwin as a biologist, rather than Darwin as a philosopher or as a influencer of morals and religious beliefs and so on. erm and I want, in fact, to ask, you know, is there in fact a challenge to Darwinism among scientists today — among serious scientists today, I mean scientists who actually know something about the subject — and the answer to that question is yes there is. What's the nature of this challenge? erm what's the evidence for and against it? What's it's likely fate? Of course you will appreciate that I am in no sense unbiased on these matters — I have strong and, I believe, correct opinions on these matters which I shall not attempt to conceal from you, but before I come down to the details let me say that Darwinism occupies such a central position in evolutionary biology — in biology as a whole, not just in evolutionary biology but in the whole of biology — that any important, new idea in biology has to be, to some extent, judged by its compatibility with, or its contradictions of, the Darwinian position. I mean to give an earlier example, when at the beginning of this century, Mendel's laws of genetics were rediscovered and an enormous growth of genetics took place and indeed is still taking place, initially Mendelism was seen by it's practitioners and by biologists as a whole as a challenge to Darwinism, as an alternative to Darwin, and great fights took place for twenty years or so between the Darwinians and the Mendelians. I mean in retrospect, looking back on it, it seems crazy — since they were clearly both right, what were they arguing about? erm but it took a lot of time to see that these two sets of views could, in fact, be made compatible as we now think they can be. Well what's the nature, then, of the challenge to Darwin today. There are a number of such challenges, but the interesting and I think significant one comes from a group of Palaeontologists, of whom Stephen Gould, now of Eldridge, erm and Stephen Stanley are probably the best know. Who had Stephen Gould has asserted that, as a result of the work of this group and others, a new, as he calls it, paradigm of evolutionary biology is in the making and the so-called near-Darwinist paradigm in which I was raised, and in which my students are raised I suppose if I'm honest is, you know, due for the dustbin. erm well, what is it that this new paradigm attacks first of all? Essentially it attacks Darwin's view that evolution is in its essence a gradual process. erm in a very interested book called Darwin on Man recently by a psychologist called Gruber, Gruber has argued that Darwin had a conviction which could be expressed by saying that things which are natural are necessarily gradual, and things which are sudden are miraculous and not natural, that he had this equation in his mind erm long before he erm became and evolutionist, long before he abandoned his belief in religion which he largely did later, and Gruber traces it back, interestingly enough, to the arguments of a theologian, Sumner, who later became an Archbishop, who Darwin took notes on his ideas when he was a student at Cambridge erm which are still extent, and what Sumner had argued, among other things, was that a good argument for believing in the divinity of Christ, that Christ was divine rather than simply being a gifted teacher, was the suddenness with which the beliefs of the ancient world were transformed by Christ's teaching. Now Darwin got from this this idea that somehow sudden things are miraculous, are natural, erm but admittedly they may happen but I mean there is a miraculous element about sudden things, whereas things that are natural should happen gradually, and he retained this view in spite of changing his ideas about all sorts of other things, and let us now see why the gradualism was so important a component of his theory of evolution. I mean we're all, I'm sure, basically family with what Darwin's theory of evolution is, and I don't really want to labour you by reminding you of it, but I think it's important to appreciate first of all what his problem was erm and I think that it's fair to say that for Darwin the problem was that as a naturalist he was aware of the fact that animals and plants are adapted to a quite extraordinary degree to their particular ways of life, and indeed many of his books on orchids and earthworms and so on have a great deal to say about the details of these adaptations. His explanation of adaptation in a sense was that it occurred as a result, as he said, of the natural selection of variations which were in their origin non-adapted in some sense, random. And he felt that it would be in a sense a miracle to produce a detailed adaptation to a particular way of life, a kind of adaptation to being fertilized by bees that you see in an orchid, by a single a large jump. If I can use erm an analogy of my own rather than of his, to produce erm a detailed adaptation of an organism to a specific way of life, if only large steps, large mutational changes were possible, would be a little like trying a surgeon trying to remove erm an appendix with a scalpel mounted on some kind of trolley clamp with the rule that he couldn't move it less than a foot at a time. I mean he might occasionally want to move it a foot, but there would be no way he'd be able to make the nice adjustments in that way. erm let me introduce you to — perhaps in a rather more quantitative way — let me introduce what is the sort of hoariest paradox about evolution. It's one that, you know, comes up year after year. It is indeed actually the paradox that Fred Hoyle has just rediscovered erm which is for those of us who have been teaching it to our undergraduates for thirty years. But the paradox goes like this — I mean any form of it is as follows: proteins, as most of you know, are strings of amino acids and we make a whole series of quite specific proteins. Imagine a rather short one, a small one, a hundred amino acids long. There are twenty possible kinds of amino acid, so the number of different proteins a hundred amino acids long is twenty raised to the power of a hundred. Now that is a fairly large number. Somebody calculated that if the surface of the earth was covered with a layer of protein molecules a metre thick, right over the whole surface of the earth erm each one, each protein different from every other one, and let us suppose furthermore that each of these proteins had been changing once as second, uniquely, into some different kind ever since the formation of the earth, we would still have tried out only quite a small fraction of the available possible proteins a hundred amino acids long. you know erm the paradox then says how can evolution possibly lead by natural selection to the selection of just that protein which best performs some function if, just by a random process of mutation it might never happen in the first place. That's the paradox. The answer is, of course, that that's not the way it happens. Any old string of amino acids a hundred amino acids long will have some kind of enzymic activity pretty well, or at least a very great many of them will. If you just make random proteins a hundred amino acids they have some kind of catalytic activity — not much, but some. We think evolution took place not by sort of hitting in one bang the right answer — that would be like the surgeon moving his scalpel a foot and hitting the right point, but by successive changes, changing one amino acid at a time, each change being a slight improvement on what was there before. And then if you do the sums there's no difficulty whatsoever in imagining the evolution of a specific optimal protein, one amino acid at a time, not in millions of years but even in thousands of years — it's not a serious mathematical problem. But it's essentially, therefore, that natural selection is only going to produce adaptations if it can do so gradually, that's basically the guts of Darwin's position. erm now what then is the position what is the nature of the criticism or the claims being made by the group of palaeontologists whom I'm going to refer to, for reasons that will become apparent, as the punctuations — because I mean they would call themselves punctuations. In effect, they are making two claims, one of which I want to call the minor and the major claim, which are not logically necessarily following one from the other. The minor claim is simply that if you it's an empirical claim it says if you look at the fossil record, and you look in detail at the changes in the fossils, what you observe is not continuous steady change, but you see what they call stasis — that is nothing much happening for long periods of time, perhaps for millions of years, and then rather suddenly changes taking place. erm whether that's true or not, I'll discuss the data on that in a moment, but that's a claim about what you actually see if you look at the fossil record. Stasis and then sudden change, which for reasons which do slightly defeat me, are called punctuational changes. The major claim is a claim which has been expressed as the claim of de-coupling. The claim is that because of this feature of the fossil record the major features of evolution, the sort of trends that you see over hundreds of millions of years, are not merely a kind of adding together of the changes which go on by natural selection within populations and which we can study today, but that some quite different kind of process must be responsible for the major features of evolution, other than natural selection of variants within populations. erm that then is the minor and the major claim being made erm let's now discuss whether there's any evidence for it erm or any evidence against it. erm let me consider first of all the minor claim, and here I think it's only fair to tell you that I'm not a palaeotologist. What I know about palaeotology isn't too much I mean I obviously have to try and know a bit, but it's not my field — erm in order to test the minor claim, you have to be able to get your hands on some rock which actually consists of continuous sedimentation over long periods of time. You don't want a bit of sedimentation and then a gap when nothing was being laid down and then a bit more being sedimented, because, you know, you don't know then whether the jumps you see in the record are simply there because there was a gap in deposition, or whether they really reflect the sudden change in the population. erm the best candidate for that kind of deposit are deep see cores — I mean there's a continuous rain of stuff falling from the surface of the sea to the bottom of the sea and forming a great sort of ooze on the bottom and gradually compacting down into rock — cores of this stuff are now available and palaeontologists can look and see what happens. The fossils that they can see in such cores are mainly the fossils of single celled organisms, radiolarians,blobigurina , things of that kind, and the data I've seen published on this actually are pretty gradualist in their interpretation. Changes do seem to occur remarkably steadily. They don't occur at a uniform rate, but there's nothing in Darwinism which implies that they should, but I was looking at some data on radiolarians recently in which about every sixty thousand years there's a population sample — I mean you can estimate and see the rate at which this stuff is building up — and in no occasion in a period of sixty thousand years did the population change by more than about half a standard deviation. Now that's the kind of change that you can produce in the lab in five generations by artificial selection. So even the most rapid changes in these things were going very, very slowly compared with the kinds of rates which we're accustomed to seeing in the lab. erm so on the whole so far deep sea cores seem to me to suggest that really at least those beauties are really pretty gradualistic in their behaviour. Let me now describe some work erm which points the other way. It's work I have some familiarity with because by accident I happened to be the external examiner of the lad who did it, Peter Williamson. It's an admirable and exciting piece of work, I think, although I don't, and I must make this clear, altogether share Peter Williamson's interpretation of his own data. But what he has done has been to study twenty one species of freshwater molluscs — that means snails, clams, things of that kind from the Lake Tocarno region of Africa. The reason why people are willing to spend money and time looking at the geology of Lake Tocarno of course is that some of our ancestors are lying around in the rocks and people are therefore very keen on getting accurate dating of the fossils and one way of doing that is to get erm accurate datings of changes in other fossils that you can co-ordinate with them. Williamson's got five million years of more or less continuous deposit, which he can date pretty accurately erm and he's got twenty one species of mollusc fossilised in that material. erm he, although it's twenty one, fifteen do really damn all. I mean they are more or less the same at the end as they were at the beginning. You certainly wouldn't want to put them in a different species, at least as far as you can judge from their shells. Of course that's all you can see. And they certainly demonstrate . The other six species erm all simultaneously show at one point in the record really rather sudden change. What seems to have happened is that at that moment the water table in the Rift Valley fell, Lake Tocarno became isolated from the rest of the rift. Probably conditions in the lake changed, which is reasonable that they should have done. Anyway, whether that's the reason or not, over a depth of about a metre of deposit there is really quite rapid changes in these populations. erm at the end of a metre is difficult to be sure, but it's somewhere between ten thousand years and fifty thousand years in these deposits, to give you a rough idea of the kind of length of time we're talking about. And at the end of that fifty thousand years, if that's what it is, the populations are sufficiently different that I'd think you'd want to put them into a different species if — I mean how are you to know, but I mean it's a reasonable judgement. erm then they stopped changing. A little later erm the erm level of the lake rose again, became continuous with the rest of the rift, and almost instantaneously these new forms disappear and are replaced by the original form. All that means is that the original form was present in the rest of the Rift Valley during this period, never went extinct, and has now come into the lake again and has either made extinct, or in some other way swamped out the local form. Now this is a very clear case of punctuation. Nothing happening and then something happening, really pretty rapidly. So it's admirable evidence for what I call the minor claim of the punctuationalist school, of the empirical claim. It doesn't prove that it's always true, but it's a jolly good case where it clearly, I think, is true. erm I cannot see, and this is where I part company with Peter Williamson to some extent, I cannot see any reason why his data should be regarded as showing that when the sudden change did take place it took place for any reason other than natural selection within a single population. It's important that, for those of you sort of who are more into the sort of detailed arguments that are going on, it's significant that whatever else was the case, this did not happen as a result of a single major mutation which was then established by selection, because Williamson's got lots of intermediate populations. He's got the original population, then he's got a whole series of intermediates, then he's got an end population, so there is nothing there are no hopeful monsters about. I'll talk about monsters in a minute. Secondly, there's no reason to suppose it happened in a small population. Indeed it cannot have done if he can lay his hands on enough fossils just in a single surface exposure erm to be able to erm measure the properties of populations, it's clear there must have been millions of specimens of these beasts present at any one time in the lake. So we're not talking about small population either. So it seems to me that what Williamson has shown in one particular case is clear evidence of punctuation, but no reasons at all that I can see for supposing that the mechanism of change was any other which Darwin described over a hundred years ago. erm just a word or two about the erm question of erm changes of rate and what was Darwin's attitude himself towards this issue. erm Darwin says in the origin, and I'm sorry I can't read it to you, but I was desperately looking for the quotation in the origin before I can and I couldn't find it but I assure you it's there erm in which he remarks that in all probability the periods of time during which species are not changing is probably very large compared with those periods when change is taking place. In other words, hopefully,expects punctuation to be the case anyway. So there's particularly unDarwinian about this finding. erm what would be unDarwinian would be if there was, so to speak, a sudden break between one species and another, without any intermediate having existed. erm now the strongest reason, I think, for believing that that is not the case is that it doesn't come from the fossil record, it comes simply from looking at organisms today. If you look at sexually reproducing organisms, and you don't move about too much — erm I mean you just sit in Sussex and look at the birds — then by and large you don't have any doubt at all to what species any particular belongs. I mean blue tits is blue tits and great tits is great tits and you don't see any intermediates. erm so species are, in a sense, real things out there, they're not an artefact of taxonomists who've tried to force some classification onto organisms which don't really have that nature. If, on the other hand, you travel about this ceases to be true. It ceases to be true of the great tit as a matter of fact, because if you follow populations of the great tits westward across Europe, the Middle East and Northern India into Southern China, they gradually change and become smaller and darker. If, instead of following them that way you follow them a bit further north and follow them north of the Himalayas, then get smaller and greyer and paler, and the two ends of the loop meet in China and behave as distinct species. They don't hybridize. I mean if one was talking about great tits in China, you'd have to say there are two kinds of great tits. So you've got a continuous series of forms erm but at the ends of the ring the erm two species are behaving as good species and as distinct, and at what point could you say there's been a sudden break. Well clearly at no point. In case this surprises you, and I'm sure it doesn't surprise those of you who are biologists, we have in Britain two terminal links with such a chain, which we would never regard as anything other than perfectly good species. Those are the herring gull and the lesser black-backed gull, which are two terminal links in a series of forms which sort of form a ring around the pole. So, geographical variation doesn't lead one to have any kind of impression that the boundaries between species are sharp and distinct if you move about. If you stay in the same place then the whole process of sexual reproduction means that indeed there are uniform populations which are hybridizing with one another and then barriers to other hybridizing population, but not if you move about. And one of the most ironic features of the present debate as a matter of fact is that Steve Gould, who's been the most vocal exponent of the punctuationist view, and indeed of the view that there's something really quite special about the specification of them, his own field work is concerned with a mollusc snail called serin erm from the West Indies, which, when it was first described by anatomists, was classified into several genera and several hundreds of different species. That's what you'd think about it if you look at it as a piece of morphology, the shell shape — it turns out to be all one species with gene flow, hybridization right across the lot. Now how a man who works on can think there's anything funny about species I just can't understand erm but there it is. erm well, suppose, however, that in my view wrongly one did suppose that there was something erm in this sort of idea of the decoupling between the processes which we observed in single populations and erm the sort of mechanisms leading to large scale evolution, what kinds of processes are held to be important when it comes to large scale evolution events? Well I want, very briefly, to mention three. And first I want to discuss this idea of hopeful monsters, which is a phrase which goes back to Richard Goldsmith, the geneticist, who argued that occasionally a single — well he was vague about what kind of mutation he had in mind, because he had really rather odd ideas about what genes were and so on but he held occasionally that some genetic change gave rise in some sense in a single dialectical leap to organisms strikingly different from their parents and that speciation consisted of the establishment of such hopeful monsters or macro mutations. He didn't say all large mutations were hopeful, but that just occasionally one would be. erm I must confess I've always had rather a soft spot for macro mutations, I don't know why, it may have had something to do with Goldsmith's prose, which is sort of rather moving when you get into it, erm and partly, and this is an interesting comment as an aside, that I knew as an undergraduate that to argue in favour of Goldsmith would make my teachers in general, and Professor J B S Halldane in particular , exceedingly angry and making one's teachers angry is, after all, one of the activities into which undergraduates should occasionally go. So I used to support Goldsmith's views, perhaps rather more strongly than I actually should of done. Anyway, I've always had a soft spot for this, there's no problem about the existence of large morphological changes due to a single mutation. I mean any visit to a gesopholar laboratory will persuade you some very, very striking differences, you know, like having four wings instead of two, or even four legs instead of six I've had in the lab — you know, really quite striking differences can be due to a single Mendelising gene, no problem about that. The question at issue is not whether macro mutations take place, but whether they form the basis of evolutionary novelties erm and that's an empirical question which is not easy to answer. It seems fairly clear, for example, that in domestic animals macro mutations of this kind have quite often been made the basis of new breeds of dogs or of cattle and things of that kind. I'm thinking of polled cattle or dogs with very, very short muzzles or dwarf legs and so on. What tends to happen is you pick up a large mutation and then you modify it further, further modifying selection. So there's nothing erm sorry,I mean, I wouldn't regard erm, you know, the acceptance of hopeful monsters in any sense as an occasional event in evolution is any sense particularly strange. The question is does it actually happen? And that's, of course, very hard to decide. The only way I can think of, or I think as far as anyone else can think of, deciding whether it has in fact been important in speciation, is to look for pairs of closely related species which differ in some striking morphological trait, but are still sufficiently similar genetically for you to be able to carry out a genetic analysis, i.e. to cross them, to get offspring, to get F two's and it's then possible, it's obviously not — I'm not going to explain the details of the technique to you now — but it's possible to work out whether the difference is due largely, or in part, to some single large gene, or whether it's on the whole due to quite a lot of small ones. And when species differ in colour pattern, for example, it not at all infrequently turns out that it's just one gene, or perhaps a couple erm I mean trituris marmaratis , which is rather a nice green newt,christatus , which is rather a nice black and yellow spotted newt, you can hybridize them and the difference is due to a single gene as far as the colour is concerned gene. But when you're thinking about an morphological traits, shapes, characters and so on, what evidence we have — and it's nothing like enough, it would be nice to have more — what evidence we have suggests that, as a matter of fact, the differences are not due to hopeful monsters. The nice investigation recently of a erm pair of species of gesophola , these are Hawaiian gesophola , in which one species, the males, have sort of eyes like crabs stuck out almost on stalks. I don't want you to imagine a great big long stalk, you know, but I mean they really do have a big projection from the side of the head in gesophola hetroinura , whereas in the known ancestor of that,gesopholis ulvestris , it's head is just the same shape as any other sensible fruit fly. erm you can hybridize these two, you can second generations, backcrosses and so on, the analysis has been made, and we know that there isn't a single large gene producing that effect — we know that there are quite a number of genes of reasonably small effect, we don't know exactly how many but certainly it doesn't look like a hopeful monster. But of course one case doesn't prove anything; we'd like more. erm secondly, I want to say just a word about an idea that Gould, in particular, and Stanley had been fond of, namely the idea of species selection. erm the idea of species selection is basically this. The idea is that species originate by the sudden events, whatever they may be, and they have new characteristics, which randomly related to the characteristics of their ancestral species. erm they're rather like sort of mutations are randomly related to the gene from which the mutation took place, but now we're talking about a whole species suddenly arising with a new randomly arranged set of traits, and then the wholesale direction of evolution erm is determined by selection favouring some species in competition with other species. So the unit of evolution ceases to be the individual who survives and reproduces in competition with another individual that becomes a species as a whole which survives in competition with other species. erm I think that this is unlikely both on quantisation and actually also on curiously enough actually on logical grounds. Let's consider first of all the quantitative ground, erm and let's talk about one of the major transitions, one of the major origins about which we have some information, and that is the origin of the mammals from the reptiles. erm we have quite a lot of fossils erm erm from the permian up to the triassic erm of mammals and their reptilian ancestors, and we know pretty well what went on. erm some of the changes that took place were concerned with learning to chew. You see mammals can chew and reptiles can't, erm we can chump away, you know? erm and let me just list some of the changes that took place which help us to chew. The most critical one in some ways is a change in the structure of our lower jaw, so instead of having a lot of bones in our lower jaw we have just a single bone in our lower jaw, the dentory , which articulates with a bone called the scremosal , whereas in reptiles the quadrate and articular for the articulation and those bones have now got stuck into our inner ear and do some stuff about conducting sound impulses. And one can follow those changes step by step through the fossil record erm including some rather nice fossils we now have which have both jaw articulations in parallel. They have both the reptilian one and the mammalian one, both sort of functional. erm at the same time, the bones on the side of the skull got sort of gradually disappeared, so that when you clench your jaws there's got somewhere for the muscles out to bulge out to, supposing you've got big muscles. Then, very important for people like me, we developed a secondary palette, who's function is to allow you to eat and talk at the same time but it also enables to you to eat and breathe at the same time. You see you can't go chewing away, it unless you've got a bony ridge between the bit you're chewing and where the air pipe is, which a reptile doesn't have — most reptiles don't, crocodiles do. Then we evolved a single tooth replacement, so that first of all you have milk teeth and then you have adult teeth, instead of them dropping out all the time. That's bad when you run out of teeth, like me, but but it's erm it does mean that you can, so to speak, design your teeth as a sort of decent engineering job and make them fit with one another and slide over one another and grind and so on. So, along with single tooth replacement, you get differentiation of the tooth rap , so that you get canines and incisors and molars and all sorts of different nicely and complicated teeth. Then there are a lot of changes that went place took place in locomotion. erm mammals, in other words, learnt to gallop and their elbows rotated backwards and their knees rotated forwards. Their backbone changed so that it would bend in a vertical plane erm the limb girdles changes and a whole number of other things changed associated with locomotion. Then a number of things we can't follow in the fossil record, but we know must have happened. They became homoiothermic, erm warm blooded, the developed hair and so on. They developed a double circulation — they changed the method of circulating the blood round the body. erm some of us, but not all of us, started lactating and feeding our young that way, and some of us but again not all of us, became volviferous and actually brought forth our young alive. All those changes must have been happening in parallel with these other ones. Now that's a lot of changes. If you try to do the sums and ask could you do all those changes simply by sort of species going one way and the other relative to these changes erm in their origins and then those species which happen to be in the right direction being selection by some kind of species selection, I think the answer is you just can't make the sums add up right. I mean there just weren't enough species extinctions to enable you to produce that number of changes and a number of independent traits in that length of time. Quantitative arguments of that kind are always hard to pin down solidly, but I don't think it's numerically plausible that you could produce a set of changes of that kind by species selection. Also, it sort of there's something wrong with it logically. Ask yourself who chews, who gallops? A species does not chew or gallop. The species horse doesn't chew or gallop or jump or bring forth its young alive. Individual horses chew, gallop, etc. If anybody if anything survives because it can chew better or gallop better or bring forth it's young alive or has a better circulation, it's not the species. I mean it's the individual animals that have these properties are the ones that survive. I mean there is a real sense in which species selection just doesn't make sense in this kind of context. Now, as a matter fact I do think that there are contexts in which species selection does make sense. I mean let me mention one — the chairman mentioned that I was a rash enough to write a book on the evolution of sex. Now one of the things that sex one of the consequences of sex is that a population which reproduces sexually can evolve more rapidly than a population erm which reproduces asexually. Now that trait could well be favoured by species selection, because what is it that evolves — individuals do not evolve — we are born and we die, but we don't evolve. Populations and species evolve. So sex and the capacity to evolve rapidly is a property of the species, not of an individual erm and consequently once can visualize erm species selection being responsible for it's evolution, so I don't actually have much taste for species selection. I can't see the point. The last set of ideas which I want to discuss, which is not which are only partly related as a matter of fact to the erm ideas of the punctuationists, are the ideas, which, as a matter of fact my colleagues here Brian Goodwin and Gerry Webster have been particularly clear and eloquent advocates, which say in effect that if you really want to understand evolution, merely thinking about the adaptation of organisms to some kind of environment is not really an adequate way of thinking about it, because when you look at organisms, look at vertebrates for example, you'll find an astonishing range of kinds of ways of life. They have an underlying community of pattern. erm the I mean we have a pentadactyl limb, whether we climb or run or fly or swim, you can recognise an obvious deep anatomical resemblance between the limbs of organisms behaving as differently as that, and therefore that if we really want to understand evolution we have to understand these erm, I don't know whether one wants to call them plans or archetypes, or structures, call them what you will. And the theory of evolution which doesn't properly understand the nature of these structures is really a jolly incomplete theory. Now, let me say there's one component of what Brian and Gerry have been saying, which I most passionately agree with as it happens — get that bit off my chest first — and that is that until we have a clear understanding of the mechanisms and processes of development, the processes whereby an egg turns into an adult, our theory of evolution will, indeed, be very imperfect, and we do not have such a theory, erm it's exceedingly important that we should work on such a theory, and such a theory it isn't sufficient simply to say ‘Oh well, there's a genetic programme for development’ and imagine that in other ways actually said something, because you actually haven't. You haven't said anything very useful anyhow. erm however, what about these ? erm let me read you what Darwin had to say erm about and this in fact is erm erm the end of chapter six of The Origin of Species. He wrote ‘It is generally acknowledged that all organic beings have been formed on two great lines, unity of type and the conditions of existence. By unity of type is meant that fundamental agreement in structure which we see in organic beings of the same class, and which is quite independent of their habits of life. On my theory, unity of type is explained by unity of dissent. The expression of conditions of existence, so often insisted on by the illustrious Cuvier, is fully embraced by the principle of natural selection. For natural selection acts by either now adapting the various parts of each being to its conditions of life, or by having adapted them during long past periods of time’. And he finishes ‘Hence, in fact, the law of the conditions of existence is the higher law, as it includes, through the inheritance of former adaptations, that of unity of type’. Now it's jolly difficult to follow an argument of that time when it's read — I appreciate that — but what I think Darwin is actually saying is this, that it's true that vertebrates, for example— all vertebrates, from fish to ourselves — have a common pattern of a rigid rod down the middle of the back, segmented muscles either side of it, a mouth at the front, a hollow nerve chord on top, two pairs of fins or legs derived from them, but not three pairs or one pair, but two pairs and so on . It's true that that is a common feature really from the time of for the last five hundred million years, from the time of the earliest fish to ourselves and to the birds and everybody else, but it's like that not because there is some kind of profound law of form, which says that's the kind of organism which is in permitted by the laws of development to arise, erm I mean the law form would be something like erm a law of physics which says that if objects move round the sun they're going to do so in ellipses with the sun at one focus. That's a kind of law of the form of movement of planets. Now, could there be comparable laws which say certain kinds of organisms are possible? erm and among those possible kinds of organisms are organisms built on this vertebrae pattern. And there are other kinds of organisms which really just aren't possible, and that's why you don't find them. Darwin's in effect in this passage is saying no, I don't think that's so at all, I think that this common pattern that all vertebrates have is simple the adaptive features of the common ancestor of the vertebrates, and I think he's got a jolly good case. I mean why do you want to have a rigid rod down the middle of your back and segmented muscles down either side? Well every biologist knows why you want to do that, it's so you can swim sinusoidally like a fish. You may say I don't swim sinusoidally like a fish — you're quite right, but it's not why you have them, it's why your ancestors had them. And you may say well why do I have two pairs of fins, you know, one in front and one behind, instead of, say, three pairs of fins, or one pair of fins, or eight pairs of fins — why do we all have two? Again perfectly good adaptive reasons — they have two pairs of fins for the same reason that sensible aeroplanes, i.e. the aeroplanes that I used to design before people went crazy, have a wing in the front and a tailplane behind, and basically they do so because two surfaces — one in front of the other like that — is the minimum number of surfaces needed if you want to produce a vertical force through any point along your body. You can't do it with one, it's too few, and you don't need three, so you do it with two. erm to go to another famous bio-plan, I pondered for a time about why does the bio-plan of insects insist on having six legs, after all we don't have six legs, why do insects have six legs? Well, the reason why they have six legs, if you think about it, is exceedingly simple, and it's again a perfectly good adaptive reason. It's nothing to do with laws of form. It's simply that six legs is the smallest number of legs you can have such that you can take exactly half of them off the ground and not fall over. And if you look at an insect walking, that's exactly what it does. It's not clever like us, falling over all the time. I mean when we're walking we are actually falling the whole time, but insects are not like that, they don't stand on three and pick up the other three. When I first thought of that I suddenly got in an absolute panic — nothing to do with Darwin, but, you know never mind — and I thought what about those erm , preying mantises and things, which who have adopted their front legs for sort of seizing prey like that they've even got four legs to walk on — what do the poor things do? So I went rushing round to a friend of mine who fortunately had some and I said I want to see your walking, and I was much comforted to discover that they do actually use all six legs. They walk on their knees and the front legs like this, so they stand on a knee and then those two legs, and then that knee and these two legs, so they The basic point I am making is I, you know, and this is quite unfair. Next week we must have Brian or Gerry telling you why I'm wrong and they'd be as persuasive, or more persuasive than I'm being, but I can't see the case for such a thing as a law of form. I think that animal forms could be almost infinitely varied and the actual forms you see are the forms which Darwin led us to see, namely the forms which are adapted to particular and specific ways of life. Of course it leaves a problem unsolved. It leaves it unsolved, but all right, given that our ancestors had this because they wanted to swim sinusoidally and eat, you know, filter feed and do things like that, we don't swim sinusoidally and filter feed why on earth do we are we so conservative? And I've no doubt at all that the answer to that question has to lie in an understanding of the mechanics of development. If it wasn't that we had to develop from an egg in every generation, I don't think that kind of conservatism would be observed. So I do think the development at that level has something pretty profound to say. erm I'm conscious of the fact that I've been going on for perhaps too long and I may not have said quite enough about Darwin, but let me just finish by saying this that it's not possible today, I believe, to discuss any important problem in biology without Darwin's thought being absolutely central to what you're saying all the time. I mean biologists , when they're talking to one another, are, by and large , talking about Darwin and that's what I've been trying to do. Well, ladies and gentlemen, I think you'll agree that some of John Maynard-Smith's early engineering training showed through, as it were, in reverse order, if that's not too heretical a statement to make in this context, in the gentle good natured demolition job that he did on the main current critical attacks on Darwin's mechanism, and particularly on the rhythms of change that Darwin adumbrated within his own time scale. I think that with John Maynard-Smith around — and I hope he'll be around for some time yet in the University of Sussex, and I hope the University of Sussex will be too In these circumstances I think that Darwin can rest quietly in his grave, that is to say of the acidulous palaeontologists haven't already been trying to dig him up to prove something. As John Maynard-Smith knows, I've always been, in a less expert way than he, a Darwinist and I've always felt, and you exemplified that tonight, I think, John, the beauty if the situation was that these profound theories corresponded with what a man of good sense, rationality, unswayed by prejudice and emotion, would be bound to belief when faced with the evidence. And I think as far as the critics are concerned, John Maynard-Smith may allow me to adapt erm the critical misjudgement of all time, which was made by a Dublin Professor when The Origin of Species first came out, which you will remember no doubt when she said when she said that what was new in the theory was false, and what was true was old. I think that John has suggested that much of what the critics are now getting up to, where it's new it's false, and where it is true, it's already subsumed in Darwin's theory as modified by John Maynard-Smith. Thank you very much, John. Hello. We're always being told that what this country needs is more scientists, but often something seems to go wrong at school. When children are thirteen or fourteen instead of being excited and stimulated by subjects such as physics and chemistry, they're bored by them, and many of the brightest minds turn away to history or english, the arts and humanities. Sandy Grassie is physicist at the university — an enthusiast who likes to share his keen sense of adventure in physics with young people. Sandy, tell me about your physics master classes for young people. Well to a certain extent these are a development of master classes that were running in mathematics across the country. The Royal Institution had tried this and they would have a set of Saturday mornings where they had mathematicians talking to children of about thirteen or fourteen. They felt it would be a good idea if they extended these ideas to the subject of physics, and we were asked at the university to try for the very first time to run a set of these master classes for children aged thirteen to fourteen in physics, to see if we could transmit some of the excitement and pleasure of doing physics to children at that crucial stage in their scientific development in schools. Where do the children come from? The children come from East and West Sussex, although to my astonishment there's one who comes from the far reaches of West Sussex, right away over erm the other side of Chichester. She travels in every Saturday morning. The parents bring her in, and the catchment are Horsham, Worth Abbey, Crawley, Oldbourne. Going eastwards into East Sussex, not so far out, mainly Lewes, Newhaven, Brighton area. And they are put forward by the schools themselves? They are put forward by the schools through the local authorities, except that of course there are a large number of independent schools in East and West Sussex, and these schools have I wrote to these ones asking if they had any children that they wanted to nominate. Roughly speaking, there are thirty six children in the class — what is it, it's thirteenish from East Sussex, thirteenish from West Sussex and nine from the independent sector spread across the county. And what are you trying to do with these children? Quite simply, give them an exciting perspective of what the ideas of physics are. We're trying to do things which on many occasions we're actually doing things which are done at university with them, in a simplified form, of course, but just to give them this perspective, this view of physics. It happens that what we've done is we've taken it and hung it on the starlight, the magic of starlight — how wonderful it is, how much you can tell from just looking at a star through a telescope and measuring the light that comes out of it, and this takes us into realms of why a star shines; what do you mean by time when you go back millions of years into the universe lifetime; what do you mean, why do stars shine with different colours. These kinds of things. It's not an obvious cumulative line through O level, it's more an impression of probably things that they will come across over the next seven years just to transmit the fun and the excitement. They get lectures each Saturday morning? Every Saturday morning there's a lecture, yes, a lecture which is given by a member of the university faculty, one of my colleagues. A rather unusual lecture, because in devising these lectures we've actually worked with local school teachers in working out what we can say to these thirteen to fourteen year old kids, because of course in university circles usually one's dealing with pupils, students, eighteen, nineteen, twenty and post-graduates. We haven't that much experience of working with thirteen to fourteen year olds, so we have been collaborating closely with the teachers in devising what could go into each lecture. They do practical work? Experiments? They do experiments, not experiments to find out about things, but experiments to demonstrate things. They're not really finding out about the uttermost regions of the hydrogen atom. What we're doing is showing them the colour of light, the hydrogen spectrum that's given off and asking them to make some measurements on it which give a clue to the nature of what is happening in hydrogen. They are experiments, for instance, that our undergraduates do in their first year here, tailored down very, very severely to act as demonstration experiments for these children. How could these children possibly do undergraduate experiments at the age of thirteen? Well from the hubbub when they're doing it, they're obviously enjoying it. Handling apparatus, that's also fun. Handling apparatus is good fun for them — unusual apparatus, doing the experiments, taking readings, plotting graphs is fun. We have written very carefully descriptive material of what is really happening in the experiment and then a very succinct set of instructions — do this, do that, turn the left hand knob. Of course that isn't all that's involved in doing physics, not at all— there are other aspects of actually having ideas about physics, but in the time they will see some pattern emerging within that experiment. They're not doing it on their own, they're doing it in groups of three on each experiment — three people will be arguing, working together on one experiment. There will be around in the room when they're doing this any six research students who have experience with the equipment, and a lecturer, and the school teacher who was involved in planning that day's work. You set the a great egg race type topic to work on for three weeks. How did that work out? Well it was great fun. We certainly set it because if the kids do spend all their time doing these demonstration experiments they're sure to get bored — life is like that. The great egg race experiment was something to break into the Midlands, something to ask them to have opinions about puzzles, because there's an awful lot of science in schools which precludes you from having an opinion. You carry on learning, and somewhere somebody knows the answer to it so you learn how they go the answer to it, and then perhaps later on you have a chance to have an opinion in science. We thought it would be a good idea to give them a chance straight off to have an opinion, and we set them a nice problem, which was that they put a marble into something and another marble comes out thirty seconds later. They had a large box of miscellaneous bit and pieces of sticky tape and straws and wood and drawing pins and all sorts of things, and we essentially just left them for two weeks to do this — and they came up with some superb ideas. There was some problem that one of them went back and talked to, presumably dad, perhaps mum though, erm and came back with a lovely engineered solution, but that didn't matter — they had fun doing it and they had fun trying these things and, believe me, the answer were ever so close to what the design I was amazed with what they produced. Yes, I was there erm and saw them working, and I think you were looking fairly amazed that the answer came out to be almost the correct answer on several occasions, with quite different bits of apparatus. Quite, it's amazing. It hadn't thought. I had honestly not thought how you would solve that problem in advance, and I'm glad I did because my amazement certainly I wanted it to show with the kids when I said ‘Goodness, what, you know, how on earth are you going to do it that way?’. It really was I was quite astonished to see some of the solutions. One of the nice aspects of a task such as that is that I think we, as professional physicists — and I'm a physicist too erm we, as professional physicists, feel there's a right way of doing something because it's the way we learnt and we've got used to, and we tend to instil this idea into other people. And I think it was really rather refreshing to see the kids not know what was the right idea and actually dream up all sorts of fantasies for themselves, many of which were had their own validity. They really did. I think this is an extremely important point in the teaching. I think one of the difficulties of science — you talked at the beginning of switching people off science — is there are some golden opportunities when you can argue science, you can argue politics, you can argue English Literature with your teacher — it's very hard to argue mathematics with your teacher. It's hard also to argue physics and chemistry with your teacher. I'd like to find some examples of that and to give the kids chances to talk and to argue their ideas where there isn't some mammoth answer stacked up on the shelves of a library somewhere. There are a lot of simple problems where kids can actually have opinions. Sandy, are you finding any difference between the boys and girls in the way they're reacting to your experiments and course? No, no difference whatsoever. All of them enthusiastic — questions are coming think and fast, not at the end of a lecture — I think we actually slightly dominate them because we're not school teachers, but quote with a big U ‘University lecturers’, but get them down in the laboratory and the questions come thick and fast from boys and girls — no difference whatsoever. So it's too young at the moment for the girls to feel that they can't do science. They haven't been put off science, they haven't decided that it's unwomanlike, or unladylike to be a scientist? You're right. This group, however, are slightly specially selected. These are selected children from the schools — often perhaps the best in the class — that have been put forward. They're very determined. Further down the line the rot may have set in. These are people who are enthusiastic about science that we're transferring more enthusiasm to, to reinforce their interest in science. I am a bit worried about the ones further down the line, how we influence them. Sandy, what's going to happen to these kids when they go back to their dull, boring school laboratories and classes after having seen the vision of your course and what physics can possibly be in the future? Well we know, from talking to some of the school teachers involved, they go back and the kids go back and talk to the other kids in the form. They may have a slight perturbation on the behaviour of the school teachers, because they're going to come back with some ideas which the school teachers will find slightly foreign to them. For instance, in one of the lectures we were talking about how you know how heavy an atom is, and my colleague, Mike Pendlebury, was describing how you can actually do this by weighing a crystal and counting the number of atoms in it, erm this is certainly not the traditional way, it's a way that's been developed over the last few years. It's a beautiful, simple way of doing it. It's not at all in the general knowledge of the sixth form science teacher, or certainly not of the O level science teacher. Some of them are going to have to puzzle a little bit hard. I do worry slightly that if some child answers this in an O level exam paper in, what, let's see, two years time, that they may get marked down. I don't think that's a serious problem, but it nonetheless is the fact that this is now the method of measuring of weighing atoms. You don't hurl them through space and put them through an electric field and a magnetic field and the rest of it. The accuracy comes from literally counting the number of atoms in a single crystal of silicone and weighing it. Sandy, this is the first of these courses that you've run, and I deliberately said first of these courses — do you have any plans for running future courses? It seems a great idea and it's a shame only to have one of them. I think that'll depend on where the money comes from. It always looms large. These courses are funded by Shell, and we're very grateful for their help. They're quite expensive at the outset because what we've got to do is pay the lecturers to put a lot of work in on those lectures — it's not a simple thing writing this lecture for a thirteen year old and we also pay the school teachers for coming along and helping the lecturers. Provided Shell were willing, we probably would go ahead next year, although the question you could ask is, having helped a group of thirty six kids in Sussex this year, shouldn't Shell, if they were going to run these master classes, help a group of kids in Westmorland next year, rather than another group down in Sussex next year. It's very much up in the air about the continuation of these classes. Remember this is the very first class. Between Christmas and New Year, sitting writing the notes for this course, I was very twitchy about how successful it would be, and now quite happy talking to the children and school teachers and listening to the hubbub of questions and pleasure as they do it, that the thing is working. It seems to have worked very well, and congratulations Sandy. Thank you very much for talking to us about it. That's all that we have time for today. My guest today is Sir Richard Attenbrough, or Dickie to his many friends. Actor, film maker, entrepreneur, he's a many of many parts, including, for example, an association for the past seventeen or eighteen years with the University of Sussex. I think it was Oh What a Lovely War that I first remember seeing you round about the university. Was that your first contact with us? Yes, it was. What I can't actually remember is whether Lovely War preceded my son and daughter came to Sussex. I remember Michael. And I can't remember — I think Michael must have come after A Lovely War, or maybe contemporary with it, I'm not sure. But it was about then — you're absolutely right — about that time, about nineteen sixty nine, nineteen seventy. It was simply that we were shooting the picture down in Brighton on the front to a large extent and on the rubbish dump, I remember, which we turned into the fields of northern France, and we needed that terrible phrase from the First World War, cannon fodder. We needed young men who were dragooned into the services in the fourteen/eighteen war and erm who never came back, and we needed a lot of them. And we provided them. And the university provided them, greatly goosed on, I might say, by the then Vice Chancellor Aisa Briggs, who was very excited by the project, and that's really how I came to be connected with the university. And not many years later than that you were involved with the Gardener Centre in one of its previous incarnations, if I could put it that way. Chairman of the Board, weren't you? Yes I was. It was again Aisa Briggs who said now come on, you know, we've helped you with the movie, come and do some work for the university, and I didn't need any encouragement. I mean it seemed to me that the whole concept of an Arts Centre of that stature and calibre on campus was simply marvellous — not unique, but of a very remarkable concept — and I became, as you say, Chairman of the Gardener Centre through Aisa Briggs' persuasion. A very persuasive man. Oh very, oh very, yes. And since then you've gone your own way and the Gardener Centre's gone its own way and it's, to be honest, gone down and up and down and mhm it's up now — did you know that? It's Well I gather it is, yes. The awful thing is that the movies that I've been involved with in the last erm few years have entailed my being abroad a great deal, and I was made in New York entirely and I was there for six or seven months, and the difficulty is that when you then make the movie and you take it round the world, you're away for another three or four months and so you end up being out of the country for quite a long time, so I've been nothing like as active with the university. I'm rather ashamed. I'm a very absentee Pro-Chancellor I'm afraid. That was Aisa, too, I might say, who persuaded me into that quite strange position for an old ham actor to be in, but erm Well you may be an old ham actor, but I note you've picked up about five or six, I think, honourary degrees now. erm have I? Yes, well, yes. So somebody must think something of you. You very humbly describe yourself as an absent Pro-Chancellor, but you have taken a considerable interest in this university over the years, and we've been grateful for it. How do you perceive the flavour of Sussex? It's unique, there's no question about that. I don't know any university that's quite like it. I think it's disciplines are extremely interesting. I love them. The whole concept of the various courses here and schools here, I think they work marvellously and I think they're stimulating and I think, from my own point of view, admirable in this breadth of examination and erm investigation and enlightenment, which personally I think is desperately erm important in our current erm communities and that to specialising too soon erm really can be almost counter-productive. I think that Sussex in a way perhaps isn't quite as identifiable as it was and I think this doesn't necessarily cause by any particular circumstance or group of individuals or individual or whatever. I think to a large degree fashion has something to do with it — the innovatory concept of Sussex was very exciting in the Sixties, it's a bit old had not. I think Sussex has got to find a new, new hat, and got to express itself and demonstrate that it is in no sense relying on twenty five years of erm of erm fairly high reputation that the next twenty five years and the next twenty five years after that are just as challenging, perhaps even more so. Again, I repeat with this problem of unemployment and so on, and the really obscene level of unemployment in this country at the moment — absolutely shocking I think — and I think the universities have to address themselves to that problem. Thank you for that. I'm all in favour. All I can say is Amen in respect of what you were saying there. All right, let's go and talk about films now. You've done your bit for the universities. Oh no, I'd much rather not . Oh What a Lovely War is a very favourite film of mine still. I get very emotional when I see it. I don't think I can still yet watch it without weeping — it's such a powerful film of a powerful time, and a terrible time really. Yes. I was bitterly disappointed. I saw it erm I ran it — I can't remember why I was running it, oh I think I wanted to look at an actor erm, oh no, it was at a festival and I had to sit through it and I was very disappointed in it, I found it slow and rather obvious and erm a little lacking in bite. On the other hand its subject matter I found overwhelming. One or two sequences worked quite well, but I hope I'm a better director now than I was then. Oh some marvellous performances in it, but really it was Joan Littlewood's intrinsic concept which was miraculous really, that's and really I don't know whether the movie lost a lot as against the play — I think it lost something — the important thing was that millions of people who would never have seen it, had it remained purely as a theatre production, did see what Joan Littlewood had to say, saw her perceptions, her wit, her humanity, and therefore I think it was well worth making. And of course Ghandi was your big success, so far, in a sense. I mean you got every award going in the universe, just about, for that one. How do you feel about that now looking back, are you beginning to get a little bit critical of yourself. I hope so, yes. Ghandi came at the right time, you know. There was a we need another feeling now, it seems to me. I'm so sickened by the erm cynicism and scepticism and terrible jingoism that emanates to a large degree from the United States. It seems to me that our leaders somehow or another have simply got to be persuaded that we are prepared to sacrifice a very great deal erm to secure erm a new attitude. That it is inconceivable that after this number of centuries man still believes that ultimately the only way in which problems are solved is by blowing the other chap's head off, which is so lunatic now. We've only seen what we've seen just recently in Russia, mhm but I'm digressing. Ghandi, I think, in the early eighties epitomised, to a large degree, and attitude of concern about erm violence, and I think that in some large measure the sort of recognition that it gained, particularly in the awards and so on, had a lot to do with its subject matter as against it's actual execution, and I think that if it had been at another time, or if the subject matter hadn't been erm quite as powerful as that old genius's life was, I don't think it would have won the awards. I think it was a combination of it was an okay movie, but it was also a wonderful subject, a wonderful subject. I was a very good movie too, I must say. Those two movies had messages, very clear messages coming through. Now how about A Chorus Line? It was a challenge. I mean many people wrote disparagingly about your attempt, your nerve in taking on a gem of the New York stage and turning it into a British directed movie. But erm did that have a message, or was that just a fun thing for you to do? Oh in large measure it was just a fun thing to do. erm I mean I think if you dragged it in by its heels there is a message there, in that erm the struggle, again coming back to the university, that young people face in a competitive society, in an attempt to express themselves, to demonstrate that they have something to give and that no matter how difficult the whole economic circumstances are, and how problematical the question of employment is, young people are entitled, or society ought to see that they're entitled, erm to some manner of expression, some form of expression, to express themselves. If they don't have that opportunity erm then what are we all doing. I mean what is the purpose of all this, bringing the cost of living down — I don't know, a thousand things that politicians pride themselves on doing — it seems to me that they all should be taking second place to the lives that up and coming generations are going to live. So I think that it's desperately important that people are conscious of that now. In that little crucible of the theatre that story was demonstrated, that here were people of phenomenal talent, with an enormous amount to give, with the tremendous burning desire to express their feelings and their attitudes, and to the enhancement of other people's lives, and how cruel it was that it was so few that got through. So, if you drag it in, yes there is, but it really was a marvellous piece of entertainment, you know, it's a wonderful show and I absolutely adored it. I mean I had the most profound admiration for the kids in New York. I mean they're unique This came over very clearly from what you said. They're gypsies. They call themselves gypsies. They sing and they dance and they act, and they do not believe unless they are profoundly proficient in all three that they're entitled to be considered gypsies. I've never met a more dedicated, resilient group of people in my life. Many people, as they approach their prime of life, look for easy options. You see to be going for bigger and better challenges. Lunatic really, yes. My whole family background has been responsible, in a way, for, by virtue of the example of my parents, for my distress at witnessing prejudice, whether it be colour, or religious, or whatever, and intolerance, and so on, and I've wanted to do a subject about South Africa for a long time, and this was enhanced erm obviously when I made Ghandi because, as you know, the first twenty odd years of Ghandi's life Indeed. adult life was spent in South Africa, and erm I found a couple of years ago two books written by a remarkable while English-speaking South African called Donald Woods, who was a newspaper editor, who befriended and then championed a remarkable young black South African called Steve Beeko, who was killed in police detention. And the movie is the story of their friendship and Donald Woods' conversion, in a way, to the erm cause that erm called black consciousness which Steve Beeko erm promoted and so on, and it ends up with a sort of James Bond escape from South Africa in a way, in that Donald and his wife and his five children, harassed and threatened by the erm South African Government, finally escape. It's an unequivocal condemnation of the obscenity of apartheid. The great problem we face is that obviously the authorities in South Africa don't want the picture to be made, and we're shooting it in Zimbabwe, where we've been made very welcome, and erm the difficulties is the creation of South Africa in Zimbabwe, which means you have to go all over the place. It's a very costly business, you know, but it must ring true because of course the actuality's on our televisions screens every other night and if it doesn't have an authentic ring to it then people won't accept what the picture has to say. So, a man of many parts. And film maker, and associated very much with this university I'm glad to say Thank you. And long may it last. Thank you very much for talking to me Dickie. Oh it's a pleasure, Brian. Lovely to see you again. Once again, good evening ladies and gentlemen, and once again I'd like to offer an especially warm welcome to this centenary lecture to those of you who've come from outside the university. If you were with us at the last occasion of this sort, the last centenary lecture on Gerter , given by Professor Corby, you will remember on that occasion erm he provided a focus of illumination in a period of power cuts, economic gloom and all the rest of it. I am not very sure that things are very much better now, but at least the days are longer and we probably won't suffer a power cut tonight. But in many parts of the world, and some of them not very far away from here, upheavals and agonies are going on, not unlike some of those experienced within the lifetime of the subject of tonight's lecture. This, incidentally, is the fifteenth in the series of great centenaries, held under the auspices of the Centre for Continuing Education, and it is to celebrate the death, and by that token the life and achievements, of the great English poet John Milton, who died in erm sixteen seventy four. I have very great pleasure in introducing our lecturer, my friend and colleague Professor Learner, who is professor of English in this university. He was born in South Africa and he studied at the universities of Cape Town and Cambridge, and has taught in universities in Britain, in America, in West Africa and France and Germany. He joined this university shortly after it was founded, in fact in nineteen sixty two, and he became Professor of English in nineteen seventy. As many of you know, Professor Learner is a frequent broadcaster, and contributor in prose and in verse to such journals as The New Statesman and The London Magazine. He's published three books of poetry, and two novels, and several works of literary criticism, the last of these, The Uses of Nostalgia, appeared in nineteen seventy two, and I understand, since this is a privileged occasion and puffs are in order, that his next book of poems, Arthur, will appear some time this year. In addition to all this, Professor Learner has been involved at various times in university adult education, and he takes English Literature courses regularly for the Centre for Continuing Education students, usually, but not invariably, at Friends Centre in Brighton, and I am sure that like myself he is happy to see so many adults from outside the university with us tonight. Professor Learner on Milton. The one thing that John Milton knew from the moment when he first began to reflect on his destiny, was that he was going to write a great poem. In one of his earliest pamphlets, called The Reason of Church Government, he said this about himself: ‘After I had for my first years, by the ceaseless diligence and care of my father, whom God recompense, been exercised to the tongues and some sciences as my age would suffer, by sundry masters and teachers, both at home and at the schools, it was found that whether ought was imposed me by them that had the overlooking, or be taken to of mine own choice in English or other tongue, prosing or versing but chiefly by this latter, style by certain vital signs it had was likely to live. But much latelier, in the private academies of Italy, wither I was favoured to resort, perceiving that some trifles which I had in memory, composed at under twenty or thereabouts, for the manner is that everyone must give some proof of his wit a reading there, met with acceptance above what was looked for, and other things which I had shifted in scarcity of books and conveniences to patch up amongst them, were received with written incomience which the Italian is not forward to bestow on men of this side the Alps. I began thus for to assent both to them and diverse of my friends here at home and not less to an inward prompting which daily now grew upon me, that by labour and intent study, which I take to be my portion in this life, joined with a strong propensity of nature, I might perhaps leave something so written to aftertimes as they should not willingly let it die.’ That is obviously the summary of a long story of consistent dedication, overlaid with constant hesitation and changings of mind and alternations about what the actual plans were going to be about the work that would be left to aftertimes. We know more about Milton, his personal concerns and his literary plans than we do about any other poet of his time, and indeed it may be that we have to come right up to the nineteenth century before we learn so much about the inner life of any poet. For instance, at the age of twenty one, Milton wrote a Latin poem, sixth of his Latin elegies and it's therefore just called Elegia Sexta. He wrote it to his friend, Charles Diodati and it's an answer, in Latin verse, to a letter from Diodati apologizing that his poems were not as good as usual because he was leading too much social life. Milton replies with a twofold statement. He begins: ‘I, with my empty belly, send you good health, which you, whose belly is bulging, may perhaps need ’ and then the falls into two halves. The first half is in praise of feasting and drinking. Bacchus song loves Bacchus and Bacchus loves songs, says Milton, and he gives us a whole stream of classical precedents, Ovid,Anacreon , Pinder, the whole lot to show that a poet naturally will love the good life. It includes a good bit of flattery of Diodati and a celebration of the erotic lyric. Then he says ‘But he who tells of wars and heaven, under the sway of grown up Jupiter, of pious heroes and semi-divine leaders, who at one moment things of the holy assemblies of the gods on high and then of those deep kingdoms where a fierce dog barks, let him live in the frugal manner of Pythagoras and let herbs provide his harmless diet ’. And then of course he gives classical precedence for this Tireseus, Orpheus, those poets who had magical powers, Homer, who suggests not only frugal diet, but chastity will be the best preparation for the poet who has this task in hand. It's quite clear of course that though Diodati may belong to the first class, Milton belongs to the second. He is the poet dedicated from the beginning to a high heroic task. Hence that opening line. It is appropriate that he should be the one with the empty belly addressing his friend. And he finishes off this poem with a description of what he's now writing. It is, in fact, the Nativity Hymn, Milton's first important poem, and he concludes ‘I am now singing’, or actually he says ‘We are now singing the peace bearing King sprung of celestial seed’. This is one of the earliest references we have in Milton to his own dedication to the task of preparing himself for leaving something to aftertimes that it would not willingly let die. The plans change. You'll see his interest here in heroic material. A little later we find him interested in the creation story and reading the now more or less unread epic on the divine week of creation by the French poet Du Bartas. Then a little later we find a great deal about romance. He seems to be taking Spencer and Ariosto as his models. We also find him toying with the idea of writing an arthuriad , choosing his subject from English history. Well being Milton, and being very thorough, he gives us long lists, of course, of dozens of possible subjects that he had in mind, but he seems to have taken the King Arthur story very seriously. In another Latin poem, for instance, called Mansus, written to a distinguished old man and patron of the arts, that he met in Italy, Giovanni Battista Manso, a friend of Tasso and Marini, Milton hopes that he too in his turn may find such a good friend and patron. ‘If ever I succeed’ he writes ‘in bringing our native kings back to life in my songs, and Arthur who waged wars even under the earth, or if I tell of the splendid heroes of the table rendered invincible by their bond of comradeship and, oh if inspiration would but come to me, if I smash the Saxon phalanxes beneath the impact of the British.’ If ever he manages to do this, he concludes, he hopes he will have a patron of similar eminence. None of the this got written. What happened instead was that Milton got caught up in politics and when the Civil War began he devoted his energy to pamphleteering. Well in a way it's not surprising that none of this got done, if you reflect how common it is that poetic plans don't get fulfilled. But of course it did in a sense get done, but when Milton did write his great poem, as we'll see, it came out very differently. Why have I begun with this story? Well, of course, because I want in talking about Milton I want to stress his dedication. Indeed, I suppose, I even want to raise in passing the thought how single-minded should a poet be. Do we think of the young poets with the young literary man? This is not a purely historical question. Do we think of the young literary man as choosing, in a sense, to be a student of literature and to turn his energies to nothing — except perhaps earning his bread — to nothing except fitting himself for the poems we are going to write, or do we think of poetry as in a sense the bi-product of a life seriously dedicated to other matters? And for this, I suppose timeless question, Milton does seem to me to offer a particularly interesting answer. Of course he belongs to the class which dedicates itself from the beginning, single-mindedly to literature, but yet not in the way we would think of. First of all, for instance, the preparation which Milton felt it was necessary for him to give himself, was neither technical nor introspective. I mean by this it was not the sort of preparation which on the one hand Elizabethan erm critics and writers of rhetoric books, or on the other hand Ezra Pound in the twentieth century would advise to the poet that he must learn to turn a good sonnet or write in all the metrical forms, or accomplish himself deftly in the technical devices. Nor was it in the romantic tradition that the cultivation of your own emotional development, the habits of seasoned and trade introspection, are really what the poet needs. The preparation in Milton's case was learn. I am sure he would have considered that both technical accomplishment and, though not perhaps in the modern sense, introspection, were valuable for the poet, but the labour and intense study which you'll have noticed he referred to in that passage I've read, consisted of course of learning large numbers of languages, which he clearly did with great fluency, and reading inordinately the whole of human literature. Milton, I say it with confidence, even in the presence of my friend Peter Burke, was the most learned — was more learned than any man in this room. Second, the special quality of erm Milton's preparation is that it was perfectly compatible with an act of life. Of course he complained when he entered political writing instead of preparing himself for his poem. He felt, in fact, that he was giving up his career. His self defence, and I now read from actually only a paragraph or so earlier than my opening passage, his self defence in the reason of Church government is quite interesting erm ‘If I hunted after praise by the ostentation of wit and learning, I should not write thus out of mine own season, when I have neither yet completed to my mind the full circle of my private studies, although I complain not of any insufficiency to the matter in hand, or were I ready to my wishes it were a folly to commit anything elaborately composed to the careless and interrupted listening of these tumultuous times. Next, if I were wise only to my own ends, I would certainly take such a subject as of itself might catch a clause, whereas this’— he is of course writing about the vexed question of erm Church government and the possible disappearance of episcopy —‘whereas this hath all the disadvantages on the contrary, and such a subject as the publishing whereof might be delayed at pleasure and time enough to pencil it over with the curious touches of art, even to the perfection of a faultless picture, whereas in this argument the not deferring it is of great moment to the good speeding. That, if solidity have leisure to do her office, art cannot have much. Lastly, I should not choose this manner of writing, wherein knowing myself inferior to myself, led by the genial power of nature to another task, I have the use as I may account that of my left hand.’ The reasons he feels uneasy at the task he's given himself, of pamphleteering, are first that he's not he's had to interrupt his studies and is not get learned enough for his poem, though you will have noticed he considers himself quite learned enough for ecclesiastical politics. Second, that he objects to the topicality of the subject that he's chosen, and finally that he's not, of course, at home writing prose. But I also began by raising the question of Milton's sense of dedication because I want to talk a little bit about the egoism of creation. You might feel, you perhaps did feel, is it not astonishingly self-centred, is it not even offensively self-centred, this concern with his own greatness, his own importance, what I am writing now, what I shall achieve. His passages do, after all, occur, many of them, in political tracts, in which he stops and talks about himself. Of course he's answering accusations when he stops and defends himself. Of course we can talk about the standard of controversy in the seventeenth century and habits of erm arguing ad hominem more than, I suppose, would normally be acceptable today. All the same, what would you think of these reasons for inserting a piece of autobiography into the second defence of the English people, a defence of course for cutting off the head of Charles the First. But in which he says that he's talking about himself ‘That so many good and learned men among the neighbouring nations who read my works may not be induced by this fellow's calumnies to alter the favourable opinion they have formed of me, followed by the assertion that the people of England whom fate, or duty, or their own virtues have incited me to defend may be convinced from the purity and integrity of my life that my defence, if it do not redown to their honour, can never be considered as their disgrace.’ Well I have to establish my own virtue and distinction. Why? Because I am, after all, the defender of the English people. You could suspect that this is a way of making it more rather than less egoistic, couldn't you? Indeed, there is — and we must confess it — there is no doubt about Milton's egoism as a man. I suppose the most striking illustration of this would be the story of the divorce tracts. Milton gives us his own account of why he wrote his divorce tracts by saying ‘When the Bishops could no longer resist the multitude of their assailants, I had leisure to turn my thoughts to other subjects. When therefore I perceived that there were three species of liberty which are essential to the happiness of social life, religious, domestic and civil, and as I've already written concerning the first, and the magistrates were strenuously active in obtaining the third, I determined to turn my attention to the second, or the domestic species. Nobody would guess from that admirably impersonal account that Milton settled to write his first divorce only a few weeks after the bitter disappointment of his marriage. Nor, I think, would you guess that in the divorce tracts there is an intensity of disillusion and indeed a self-pity. Well, I'll give you a specimen. It is not less than cruelty to force a man to remain in that state as the solace of his life, which he and his friends know will be either the undoing or the disheartening of his life. We know from external evidence that Milton is clearly talking about himself at this point. It does not, however, prevent him from saying that now, in this tract — this is from the doctrine and discipline of divorce —‘The duty and right of an instructed Christian calls me, through the chance of good or even report, to be the sole advocate of a discountenanced truth. A high enterprise, lords and commons, a high enterprise and a hard, and such as every seventh son of a seventh son does not venture on.’ This can cast us back to that sense of aestheticism and dedication that we saw in the sixth elegy. I don't suppose there's much doubt that Milton approached his marriage a little late in life with an intensity of idealism that must, to some degree, have derived from the high conception of the chastity to which he had up till then dedicated himself, and poor Mary Powell, just like Desdemona, becomes a victim of male idealisation and the unreasonable demands that it makes. Now I've not mentioned this not totally creditable episode in Milton's life, I've not mentioned it simply to make him unlikeable to you, but to go on and say that the kind of egoism which issues in this way in his life issues in a rather different way in his worth. There it issues in a way which seems to me not only acceptable but poetically extremely valuable. ‘Yet once more, oh ye laurels, and once more ye myrtles brown, with ivy never seer , I come to pluck your berries harsh and crude, and with forced fingers rude shatter your leaves before the mellowing year. Bitter constraint and sad occasion dear compels me to disturb your season dew. For Lucidas is dead, dead 'ere his prime, young Lucidas and hath not left his peer. Who would not sing for Lucidas. He knew himself to sing and build the lofty rhyme. He must not float upon his watery bier unwept and welter to the parching wind without the mead of some melodious tear.’ It is in a way saying the same thing as the preface to The Reason of Church Government. ‘Reluctant as I am, I must lay aside other tasks and do this one.’ I presume that the before the mellowing year, the premature moment at which he's dedicating himself is of course a personal reference concerning his own youth. But the difference is that the degree to which Milton is speaking in his own person seems so much less in the poem, doesn't it? It's almost a kind of professional remark. He's writing as the poet. If I do it for Edward King, somebody will do it for me. Indeed, it's not only the writer who is depersonalised, but also the subject. It's not Edward King, the man who was actually drowned and whom, as it happens, Milton hardly knew, it's Lucidas, the figure of the young poet, priest, put to some extent on a classical model that he is writing about. Lucidas, I suppose, more than any other poem of Milton's, and indeed I suppose more than any other poem in English, Lucidas shows us that there doesn't have to be a conflict between personal involvement and formal rhetoric. Though the very fact that it is so traditional and so formal a poem in the pastoral tradition, held in the tightness of all the conventions that it employs, not only allows, but in some strange way makes possible, the intensity of personal feeling that it contains. For instance, erm when he speaks the fact that the young man was cut off in his prime, perhaps the most famous passage of the lot ‘Alas what boots it with incessant care to tend the homely slighted shepherd's trade and strictly meditate the thankless muse. Were it not better done as other use to sport with Amaryllis in the shade, or with the tangles of Nayera's hair.’ Writing poetry is presented in the wholly artificial diction of tending the shepherd's trade, or in a Latinism that is not even correct, colloquial, normal English in meditating the thankless muse. The lures of sex, relaxation, all the things that distract you from your high heroic task, are in the form of nymphs with Latin names. It's hard to imagine anybody writing more artificially, but I hope you feel, as I do, there can hardly be a piece of poetry in which the distress of the poet and the feeling that he may be wasting his time comes through in a more anguished fashion. And since I am raising this question of the universalizing and the depersonalizing of egoism as it becomes poetic dedication in poetry, I'd like to do this by offering you a contrast, and I choose as my contrast Alexander Pope, another poet who was obsessively concerned with his own role as a poet — in his satires in this case. He spent a good deal of time in his satires, presenting himself as a satirist — unplaced, unpensioned, no man's heir or slave he proudly describes himself as he tells us that he's willing to lash out at even the most eminent public figures. It's impressive, in a way, as an assertion of poetic independence. But it's almost impossible to separate it from thinking of Alexander Pope the man. ‘I will or perish in the generous cause. Hear this and tremble, you who scape the laws. Yes, while I live, no rich or noble maid shall walk the world in credit to his grave.’ I'm not very sure it's prudent if you're indicating your own incorruptibility as a poet to put it in the future tense in the first place, and when you continue as Pope does ‘Envy must own, I live among the great’ as he starts to describe his own life and you realise he's bringing in touches about himself which really have very little to do with the particular role as poet, it becomes quite clear that that depersonalisation process has not taken place in the case of Pope. erm I suppose the very extreme of such self-satisfaction is in the epilogue to Pope's satires, where he actually tells us ‘Yes, I am proud. I must be proud to see men not afraid of God afraid of me.’ Hence rhyme, you can see, is a two-edged weapon in the hands of a poet. Now, as I say, poetic boasting is, in a way, something that is common to both Pope and Milton. I think once more, but now for the last time, I'm going to turn back again to the preface to The Reason of Church Government and whoops and read you one more sentence erm in which he is apologizing once more for having entered the fray, the political fray ‘But although a poet, soaring in the high region of his fancies, with his garland and singing robes about him, might without apology speak more of himself than I mean to do, yet for me, sitting here below in the cool element of prose, a mortal thing among many readers of no imperial conceit, to venture and divulge unusual things of myself, I shall petition to the gentler sort it may not be envy to me.’ And he then actually goes on and writes the passage I began by reading of straight autobiography. Well you'll see that in that apology Milton appears to be conscious of the very point that I am trying to make, that is to say it might be considered out of place in this prose work to speak of myself in direct factual terms, although a poet — a poet intending to write of things unattempted yet in prose or rhyme — a poet soaring in the high region of his fancies, with his garland and singing robes about him, in other words where we can't or aren't really invited to make out his individual identity very clearly because it is his role as poet that concerns us, there he clearly feels it would be proper. When he came to write Paradise Lost, Milton on four occasions deliberately spoke in his own person in a way very close to the opening of Lucidas, or to the programme which that last sentence suggests to us. These are the four exordia or openings to books one, three, seven and nine. The most is the invocation to light in book three, in which Milton speaks out of his blindness, uses that to place himself in a tradition, and again without foregoing his intensity of personal involvement. Indeed, I think that probably is the rival to Lucidas as the demonstration of how the depersonalizing is compatible with the most intense personal involvement. But I'm going to read you something much shorter from one of the from I suppose the least well known of the exordia, that is the one to book seven. erm the ostensible subject of this passage is that he's now finished with hell and heaven as the setting for his poems, and he's coming down to earth for what is left. ‘Standing on earth, not wrapped above the pole, more safe I sing, withe moral voice unchanged to horse or mute, though fallen on evil days, on evil days though fallen and evil towns, in darkness and with dangers compassed round and solitude. Yet not alone while though visits my slumbers nightly, or when morn purples the east. Still govern though my song Urania and fit audience find, though few. But drive far off the barbarous dissonance of Bacchus and his revellers. The race of the wild route that torn the Thresian bard in rodderpee , where wood and rocks had ears to rapture to the savage clamour drowned both harp and voice. Nor could the muse defend her son. So fail not though who thee implores, for thou are heavenly, she an empty dream.’ Once again I think we have a great intensity of personal feeling. He speaks directly to us in the first person and he expresses something very like fear and even self-pity, the distress of the poet, seeing himself as a kind of natural victim, and it may be the distress of the puritan living on after the Restoration and afraid of the wild route, which is Charles the Second's court, though I think we can be a little sceptical of this and we certainly don't know with sufficiently accuracy when Paradise Lost was written. It is the context of the poet, inspired but misunderstood, humble in front of the muse. It is intensely personal, but again one can detect in it mechanisms used to control the feeling and turn it from a mere discharge of personal feeling into a genuine expression of emotion. Primarily, I suppose, the rhythm, the very moving strange erm playing of sentences against blank verse, unchanged to horse or mute, though fallen on evil days, on evil days though fallen and evil tongues. And also, of course, the reference to Orpheus, a figure who clearly haunted Milton's imagination as that of the poet of enormous power but somehow also the natural victim. erm this passage, of course, about the savage clamour drowning both harp and voice, refers to the legend of Orpheus being torn to pieces by the Thrashian women, which Milton also uses in Lucidas. So, my perhaps trite point in conclusion is that there is no tension, or rather there is a tension, but there is no incompatibility or contradiction between formality and personal involvement in the case of Milton. And now, clearly, it's time I turned to the poem itself, having spent most of my hour on the question of how Milton got there. When he finally found his subject, it was, as you all know, the Fall of Man, the eating of the apple, taken from Genesis. And it was the right subject — he got there in the end — because it enabled him to use everything that was most important in his own experience. For instance, it enabled him to use the very struggle for a subject, which had occupied so much of his line, since we can partly see that struggle as a struggle within Milton over his own humanist heritage. That is the struggle between Milton the poet and Milton the puritan. This is a constant dilemma. Suppose somebody read to you, without telling you the author, but telling you the date — the early seventeenth century lines like this ‘But let my due feet never fail to walk the studious cloisters pale and love the high embowered rough with antique pillars and and storeyed windows richly dyked, casting a dim religious light, there let the pealing organ blow to the full-voiced choir below in service high and anthems clear, as may with sweetness through mine ear dissolve me into ecstasies and bring all heaven before my eyes. And may at last my weary age find out the peaceful hermitage, the hairy gown and mossy sill where I may sit and rightly spell of every star that heaven doth show, and every herb that sips the dew, till old experience do attain to something like prophetic strain.’ Well, you would say attractive poet, fertile imagination, lover of the sense, likes organ music, likes stained glass windows, is sympathetic to the idea of monasticism retiring into a hermitage, probably a Roman Catholic. And you were then told that he was the great propagandist of those who went around a dozen years or so later breaking down these storeyed windows, richly dykes, because it was of course profane and idolatrous to have that dim religious light in your churches. You could hardly deny that there's a certain tension between poet and puritan. Indeed, if we want a puritan poet at that time, we would do far better to turn to that good, upright Anglican priest George Herbert, than we would to John Milton. George Herbert addresses his own conscience, ‘Peace prattler, do not lower, not a fair look, but though dost call it foul; not a sweet dish, but though dost call it sour. Music to thee doth howl. By listening to thy chatting fears I have both lost mine eyes and ears.’ And we discover the doctrine that conscience reprimands you for every one of your pleasures erm sweet dishes, music, everything, because they are all the product of depraved and sinful human nature. The doctrine of the fall, the all pervading fall, of man through all man's faculties, the good Calvinist doctrine is held clearly with much more intensity here. Now when it came to Paradise Lost, this tension, which is simply excluded from Il Penseroso, is actually inserted into the poem. It's inserted into the poem in two ways: first the devils are identified with the pagan gods — they are introduced, indeed, with a great fanfare in the first book and given all sorts of classical erm and oriental names, and Milton explains to us that of course it was the devils themselves who managed to disperse this tradition that that's who they really were; and second, and though less central and less impressive in its poetic results, is perhaps the second device which is more interesting when we think of the poem in terms of Milton's personal involvement. Second he tells us that the classical paradises, which you can read about it in ancient authors, none of them are as fine as the Garden of Eden. ‘Not that fair field of Enna where Prosepene , gathering flowers, herself a fairer flower by gloomy diss was gathered, which costs series all that pain to seek her through the world. Nor that sweet grove of Daphne Biorontes and the inspired Castilian spring might with this paradise of eden strive. William Emser has resurrected for us a brilliantly stupid comment by the eighteenth century classical scholar Bentley on these lines. Bentley says of them ‘With a silly thought in the middle and a sillily conducted in its several points. Not Enna says he, not Daphne, nor Fonds Castalus , nor Beaser , nor Mount Amera could compare with Paradise. Why, who would suspect they could, though you had never told us.’ And says Emser ‘A man who had given all his life to the classics might easily have suspected it’. Here we have, of course, the explanation why these lines are so enormously moving. Milton is paying to Eden the highest compliment in his power. He is throwing away for it a lifetime's dedication to classical studies. It is my little pet theory about religious poetry that the greatest religious poetry is an act of renunciation and therefore what you have to do is put in what you're giving away. You write the same poem over and over again and tell us what you're no longer going to do. ‘Nothing in this marvellous list’ says Milton ‘was as fine as Eden’and of course it hurts him to say it, and I don't think it's far fetched to detect that hurt and pain of that great sacrifice that John Milton is making in the rhythm when we read ‘Might with this paradise of Eden strive’, or in the fact that he can't stop there, because I didn't — as you will have realized from Bentley's comment — I didn't read you the whole passage. He goes on ‘Nor that niceanile girt with the River Triton, where Old Cham , whom gentiles Annan call and Libian Jove , his and his florid son, young Bacchus’, sorry ‘hid’— gracious me, there's a misprint. Milton ‘Where Old Old Cham , whom gentiles Annan call and Libian Jove , hid and her florid son, young Bacchus from his stepday Maria's eye, nor where abasin kings there issue guard Mount Amara, though this by some suppose true paradise under the Ethiope line by head enclosed with shining rock a whole day's journey high, but wide remote from this Asyrian garden where the fiend saw undelighted or delight.’ You can see Milton can't stop. He's got to go on for another ten lines, piling on more and more out of the way references to classical paradises so that he can give it all away for God. So far from being, as you might at first glance suspect, a wanton display of Milton's monstrous learning, it's a piece of triumphant relevance. The more he can find to dazzle us with the greater is the compliment that he pays to Eden. Indeed, this very struggle that I find so fascinating in the writing of Paradise Lost, you know,a rather intimate way I feel I can see it in eleven words that come just a little earlier in the fourth book, in which he tells us ‘Seeing the apples growing on the trees, that they are hisperian fables true, if true here only and of delicious taste’. I like to think that Milton originally wrote hispearian fables true and of delicious taste. It's metrically quite plausible. That would be a gesture of supreme eloquence by Milton, the humanist. That would be an extravagance of classicallly based compliment and then Milton the puritan comes along and says to himself that won't do, we need a footnote, and in goes the footnote if true here only — don't forget that these classical legends are all lies. Paradise Lost, like Colmris is a poem with a thesis, but the counter position of the thesis is so powerful that the poem, both these poems, have to be described as the enactment of a conflict, rather than the giving us of the result. The thesis, of course, is quite simple. The poem sets out to justify the ways of God to men, and what little time is left me will be devoted to justifying the ways of god to men, and we must begin this, sorry we must begin this by a word on on the fall — the way of God the ways of God to men of course are punishing men for the fall. If the circumstances of this crime — that is the eating of the apple — are duly considered, it will be acknowledged to have been a most heinous offence and a transgression of the whole law. For what sin can be named which was not included in this one act. It comprehended at once distrust in the divine voracity and a proportionate credulity in the assurances of satan, unbelief, Side B graditude , disobedience, gluttony, ‘In the man excessive uxoriousness, in the woman a want of proper regard for her husband, in both an insensibility to the welfare of their offspring and that offspring the whole human race. Parasite, theft, invasion of the rights of others, sacrilege, deceit, presumption in aspiring to divine attributes, fraud in the means employed to attain the object, pride and arrogance. That comes from Milton's Latin Treaties on Christian Doctrine, and you can see he certainly must have felt he'd found his subject. It clearly implies a world order in which the prime virtue is obedience, not a world order that's exactly to our twentieth century democratic taste, but then after all not a world order altogether to Milton's taste, as we can remind ourselves by thinking of his plea for unlicensed printing the Areopagitica. Obedience is, of course, to God and not to man. Well, I am alas going to have to leave out my discussion of God in Paradise Lost, the question of whether, by presenting the obedience to God you can somehow make it more palatable to the readers' tastes than you could if it was entirely thought of as a secular morality. And the answer of course is that it depends how much you make God like yourself, and that's a test that Milton doesn't come altogether well out of. But I want really, in conclusion, to jump straight to the central part of the poem in which the ways of God to man,got to me are most clearly justification's most clearly involved, and that is the actual process of the fall. Milton's task, of course, is to convince us of the sin involved. Just to convince us that all these things that he tells us about are somehow present, to convince us of the heinousness of what he's done. In a word, I suppose I think he succeeds better with Eve than he does with Adam. But I'm going to put the evidence in front of you and ask you to decide for yourselves. Immediately after the climax of the poem — the tremendous lines in which no so saying ‘A rash hand in evil hour forth reaching to the fruit she plucked, she ate’. Immediately after this big moment the earth is convulsed with horror we have Eve's first speech, presumably after the fall the first speech in a state of sin, and this is it ‘Oh sovereign virtuous, precious of all trees in Paradise, of operation blest to sapinense hitherto obscured in famed and thy fair fruit let hang as to not end created, but henceforth my early care not without song each morning and dew/due pray shall tend thee and the fertile burden ease of thy full branches offered free to all. Till dieted by thee I grow mature in knowledge, as the Gods who all things know. Though others envy what they cannot give, for had the gift been theirs it had not here thus grown. Experience next to thee I owe, best guide, not following thee I have remained ignorance. Thou openest wisdom's way and gives no secret she retire. And I perhaps am secret. Heaven is high, high and remote to see from thence distinct each thing on earth. Another care perhaps may have diverted from continual watch our great forbidder safe with all his spies about him. But to Adam, in what sort shall I appear? Shall I to him make know as yet my change and give him to partake full happiness with me? Or rather not, but keep the odds of knowledge in my power without co-partner, so to add what wants in female sex the more to draw his love and render me more equal and perhaps a thing not undesirable sometimes superior, for inferior . This may be well, but what if God has seen and death ensue, then I shall be no more and Adam wedded to another Eve shall live with her enjoying I extinct a death to think. Confirm then I resolve, Adam shall share with me in bliss or woe , so dear I love him that with him all deaths I could endure without him live no life.’ Well that shows us what a dramatist was lost to the English stage when Milton finally decided to write it as an epic and not as a play. Eve starts with an extravagance. Well we might consider frenzied and suspect —‘Oh sovereign virtuous, precious of all trees’, though we must be careful of course because in the formal style of Paradise Lost such opening addresses are common. Well we can have no doubt when a moment later she turns to idolatry and assures the tree that her early care ‘Not without song each morning and due/dew praise’— a little excessive for a tree, perhaps. That's what she's going to devote to it. And, indeed, as befits someone who's hovering on the edge of idolatry, even her vocabulary has gone a little pagan ‘Till dieted by thee I grow mature in knowledge as the Gods who all things know’, and then what I think is a brilliant touch on Milton's part, the very next line says to us ‘Though others envy what they cannot give’. Now the others she's referring to there must be God, but she cannot immediately go on and so bluntly say, in the very next line anyway, you know, it was only the serpent who showed it to me, God is going to be envious of me. So it's this kind of vague offstage ‘others’ who seem to have the power in that case. Well, you'll also have noticed I am sure that as she went on touches of uneasiness began to appear. For instance, after she had said I would have remained in ignorance, the tree opens wisdoms way though secret she retire, the word secret catches up almost by a mechanical verbal train of association the thought and on it perhaps secret and then all these uneasy feelings that perhaps God's so far away, or he wasn't watching, or in some way or other he didn't actually see. erm then when it comes to Adam, the first thought in relation to Adam is of course that she's improved her own position, isn't it? It's only after that that once again she begins to be worried at possible consequences ‘What if God hath seen and death ensue, then I shall be no more and Adam wedded to another Eve’ and therefore, of course, ‘Adam shall share with me in bliss or woe’. C S Lewis, a little unkindly, describes this as murder in which he says that erm the more convinced that she is that it's going to be fatal in its operation, the more determined apparently she is that Adam shall share. Whether she is consciously twisting logic, or just, poor girl, confused, I'm not sure, but at the end it's quite clear ‘So dear I love them that with him all deaths I could endure, without him live no life’, that she's got into a world of fantasy because the one thing that is of course not in question is that Adam should die and that she should live on, which appears to be what she's referring to here. Now I think this is a brilliant speech, but I have to admit that it is a speech which, in showing the egoism, the confusion and the self-deception of Eve, assumes a valid order which is being destroyed. That is to say, it assumes the hierarchical erm conception of God's world and the ethic of obedience, which, as we saw from that prose passage, underlies the conception of the fall as the central sin. And this point is even more clear-cut with Adam. The last passage I'm going to have time to read comes in the erm speech of Adam erm, not actually speech, the inward soliloquy to Adam, the first thing that he says he says his case is not yet fallen when he sees Eve. Eve comes to him and tells him what she's done. ‘Oh fairest of creation, last and best of all God's works, creature in whom excelled whatever can to sight or thought be formed, wholly divine, good, amiable or sweet, how art thou lost? How on a sudden lost, defaced, deflowered and now to death devote, rather how has thou yielded to transgress the strict forbiddance, how to violate the sacred fruit forbidden. Some cursed fraud of enemy hath beguiled thee yet unknown, and me with thee hath ruined, for with thee certain my resolution is to die. How can I live without thee? How forego thy sweet converse and love so dearly joined, to live again in these wild woods forlorn. Should God create another Eve and I another rib of , yet loss of thee would never from my heart. No, no, I feel the link of nature draw me. Flesh of flesh, bone of my bone thou art, and from thy state mine never shall be parted, bliss or woe.’ In a way, the most important word in the whole of that speech is probably ‘nature’—‘I feel the link of nature draw me’ because here now Adam is using the word nature as, I suppose, he would not have used it at any earlier point in the poem. It is being used as something contrasted to God's order. He's already feeling that there is a counter movement in him which he is prepared to call nature, which links him to Eve and which will lead him to join Eve in her defiance of God. We have of course got here a speech about a human bond versus a larger loyalty. About a link of nature versus accepting your place in God's universe and obeying God's instructions. Milton, we could say, is here showing us the price of following God's command. What, once sin has entered the world, it can cost you to obey all those injunctions in the new testament about ‘I am thy father and thy mother,sell all and follow me.’ And of course he's showing us Adam's failure to follow . You could even say that Milton's rejecting the future in this speech and saying I label sin what is going to become, if you have prophetic powers, new kind of ethic. And to justify the ways of God to men with such honesty, that is to say with such a complete account of what the price is which would have to be paid, is of course no longer to justify but to enact the actual conflict. It is no longer to come down on one side or other of the fence as the entire poem was so clearly designed to do, but to say following the ways of God will mean this. And that, of course, is why in the end, though we can all read Paradise Lost alike, and we can all in a certain sense respond to Paradise Lost alike, we must come to our final conclusions about the poem in terms of our own values. And for the humanist reader, for this reason Paradise Lost is really the greatest reputation of Christianity that's ever been written. Thank you. This is the second in our new series of twelve programmes on opportunities in education, in which we're looking at some of the ideas in action in schools today. Contributors are largely from the Education Faculty at the university, and today I have with me Dr Johanna Turner, who is a Developmental Psychologist and the person who is particularly interested in development in young children. Jo, at what stage do you think that formal education ought to start for a child? As you know, at the moment it starts and five, but ideally perhaps it could start younger, but obviously there are financial considerations as well. Perhaps a development of nursery education on a much greater scale, bigger scale than has hitherto been the case Well, be careful what you're committing me to say. I mean you asked me about formal education and immediately we're talking about nursery education. Now I don't want necessarily to equate the two of them. I do think some formal education could start sooner, but I wouldn't want you or the listeners to think that nursery education and formal education are one and the same. What is the difference, basically? Well I think one of the advantages of a nursery schooling is certainly a considerable amount of social interaction for the children, which very often they won't be obtaining, either if they're living in high rise flats, or at the other end of the social spectrum if their parents are living in large houses with large gardens and no other children within the vicinity. So I think it has a social function, as well as a formal educational function. Do you think that the social function comes before the formal function, or do you think they both go together? I think it would depend on the child. For some children they are more socially deprived, and yet they may be getting considerable ‘education’ in inverted commas within their home environment. For other children they probably are getting enough social interaction, there may be plenty of children around, but educationally, in terms of the sort of basics for education they may be extremely deprived. I think there are many functions that it serves. Do children develop at roughly the same rate? Can you say that all three year olds are roughly the same? You can say that three year olds are more like other three year olds than, say, thirty year olds would be like other thirty year olds, and the younger the child the more true that is, so that would be much more true at age a year, assuming that there aren't any physical defects or mental defects, than say at three. So by three, yes, there is some variation, but they are certainly there is less variation than you would get at the end of the secondary school or university. And are there quite specific stages that one can recognise perhaps as a developmental psychologist which take place at roughly particular times in a child's development? Very broadly. Could you give me some idea of what these might be in the very early years perhaps? Perhaps I could, but whether I should is a different point. I feel that once parents begin to become too aware of norms, they worry, and therefore unless a child is grossly out of sync, if you like, with their peers, I wouldn't say it would matter, but yes, one would expect a three year old to be talking at one extreme. If there is no speech by three, indeed if there is no speech earlier than that, it might be very important to check that the child is not deaf. I think also you would expect children who are really quite young, well before the first year, to be showing social interest in other adults around, and if they're not it might be worth checking that there isn't some problem with the child. But generally speaking I'm not very happy about norms. Oh well we won't press you on that particular point then. There's been a lot of publicity recently about parents teaching their own children, rather formal things. There have been one or two stories about youngsters who've become reached a very high level in mathematics, for example. Are you in favour of parents teaching their own children? Well can I come to that in a minute, because you said something I'd like to pick up. You said the child may not be developing in the way the parent expects the child to develop, and I think that it's very important for parents to check out their expectations. If they are expecting something that they haven't got, it may well be that their expectation is wrong. What is important is the child that they have in front of them, and to learn to understand that child. It's not it's brother or sister, or their brother or sister, it is unique, and it's pattern of development, although of course it will be broadly similar to other children, exactly like no other child, and in a sense I would feel that the parental job is to judge very carefully the needs and the developmental cycle of their own child, and then stimulate to the extent that that child needs. Now having said that, of course, I've almost answered the other question, that I just do not believe there are any rules. I mean maybe you're thinking of the sort of publicized cases of a nine year old, I believe it was, who's got A levels in mathematics. I would not want to say that I could criticise that parent, because I don't know the background of it. I would very much hope that other parents would not feel that they ought to be doing to the same thing, unless their circumstances were very similar. If you have a child who appears to show a talent at one thing, then of course it's natural to let the child do what it enjoys doing, but that might be the very moment for saying well what is this child not talented at and ensuring that this child gets some experience of the kind of world that it not part of its own talents, so I would feel, from my own point of view and as a psychologist, that if you have a child who is very talented in mathematics, then fine, it's going to be quite good at mathematics one would assume, now's the time to say well is it as equally talented in music? Are there other things that could develop? Has it got erm a wide social relationship with other children? So that at the end of the day one has a much more rounded individual with of course specific talents. I'm not for holding back children. I think parental anxieties are something with which one must have great sympathy because very often the anxiety is not so much an anxiety about the child, it's an anxiety about the parent. If they have had difficulty in school they will worry that their child is having difficulty in school. Now of course it may be that the child has caught a worry about schooling from the parent, but I think that's the first thing to sort out — is this really a problem in the child, or is it a problem in the parent's mind? And secondly, I mean obviously parents are more worried if they feel that their child is not doing as well as somebody else's child, and we're back to this question of expectation again — where did they get the expectation that this other child is, as it were, some sort of norm that they ought to be living up to , and parents should talk to teachers and to other people who know their child and have got experience of their child as against other children to find out really whether their worries are truly grounded, or whether they are just groundless. I think to come back to an earlier question of what should you teach them, and what is normal, is that ideally a child wants to grow up in an environment where his or her parents enjoy here, where the relationship is enjoyable on both sides and not shot through with anxiety about how well this child is developing, providing the development is within the normal range. If the child has a special skill or the parent has a special interest and they enjoy together exchanging this skill or interest, like teaching a child to swim very young, teaching it to play or listen to music, or play very simple rhythmic sounds, then as long as it is done within a relationship that is, above all, a loving relationship, great. But if it's done as a way of accelerating the child's development, in order, as it were, to give it the edge over its peers, that doesn't seem to me to suggest a relationship in which parent and child are enjoying each other ; it is much more a relationship in which the child is being prepared for competition with its peers and this, I feel, probably is going to turn out badly, because almost inevitably the child will not reach the levels that the parent has build up in fantasy in its own mind. How do you feel about parents teaching children how to read? I think it comes to the same thing. If the parent feels they know a system that they have heard or read is successful, and if they try it out on the child and the child obviously enjoys it, if it becomes part of a game, then I can't see any harm in it, but I think the parent has to be scrupulously honest as to whether the child is enjoying it. If there's any hint that the child isn't enjoying it then I don't think it should happen. If parents really want to help their children, with reading specifically, I feel that Margaret Donaldson, who is and educational psychologist in Edinburgh, is correct when she points out that one of the greatest difficulties children have when they go to school is that many of them don't understand what kind of activity reading is. For instance, they don't understand, as she quotes in her book, what somebody is doing when they're reading a newspaper, or what it means when the postman looks at a envelope. Now if parents, through playing games with their children that are based on words, could alert the child to the fact that print is a convention and that we can translate print into reality, obviously not as abstract as that, but just get the child used to knowing what print is, knowing what reading is, so that perhaps when they go to school they may well know this is a skill that they don't have, like they don't know, perhaps, how to ride a bike, they may not know how to swim, they certainly don't know how to drive a car, but they do know what sort of a thing driving a car is. In that way, I think they'd be much more prepared for learning the skill than if they go completely unprepared and see children looking at books and saying things and it makes no sense to them. My last question is is really again about making children do things, as opposed to encouraging or helping them to do things. You say that so far as you're concerned, it's all right for children to learn if in fact they're enjoying it and if in fact they want to and they're not being coerced. Surely that makes the transition between home and school a rather traumatic one? Having worked and been around the Brighton first schools for many years, I would very much hope that the transition is not traumatic. Certainly, the most of the infant teachers I know take great pains to make sure that it is not traumatic and that the move from home to school is as easy as possible. Now having said that, often the trauma, which goes back to my original remark, is the sheer number of children, the sort of social impact that a reception class can have. Now if a parent can have introduced the child via nursery school to that amount of other children, then I think there should be very little trauma, but that isn't to say that as the child gets older they don't have to do things. But if a child has to do something because they can understand the end a which they're aiming, in the way that a footballer has to train, or a boxer has to train, then it becomes easier to do the equivalent of training. One of the difficulties is that the end state is so far removed from the average child that it is very difficult for them to see why they have to learn to read, but if they can realize that if they learn to read in those houses where they have it they'll be able to read the Radio Times and know what the television programmes are, that at least is motivating. I mean reading as to be put in a context and a context that is, in fact, enjoyable to the child, not something that just happens at school that they have to do, hence one they go to school the value of parents hearing the children read, because then the parent is also involved and one doesn't get this split between home and school. Well thank you very much, Jo. Hello. This is another programme in which we explore the boundaries of science, limits to what we know, or can possibly discover. Today we look at the start of it all, the creation of the universe. John Barrow is an astronomer at the university. John, how long ago was the universe created? Well I think all we can say with any confidence is that the patterns of evolution and behaviour going on within it today indicate that it has an apparent beginning between about fifteen and eighteen billion years ago. You say an apparent beginning, does that mean there's a great deal of uncertainty associated with it? There is an uncertainty in the sense that we today observe the universe to be in a state of expansion, that is the most distant galaxies and clusters and galaxies are all receding from one another at a high speed, which actually increases as you look farther and farther away from us. If we sort of reverse things in our minds eye, and look backwards into the past history of the universe, we can come to a time where apparently all the material in the universe would have been on top of itself, that it would all have been squeezed into a point, and this moment sometimes people call the big bang, or the initial singularity. And it's that moment which, when we trace the expansion backwards, will have occurred between about fifteen and eighteen billion years ago, but we can't say what, if anything, may have happened before that, whether the universe bounced out into another state of expansion, so we have a sort of a cut off in our ability to retrodict , or extrapolate backwards into the past. The uncertainty in the number that I gave you, about fifteen to eighteen billion years, is not in any sense an error due to inaccuracies of measurements of the rate at which the universe is currently expanding, but there are systematic differences of opinion about how one should calibrate the expansion rate, because people have different means of measuring the distance from us of the most luminous objects. When one calculates, for example, the beginning of the universe, using the methods you described, surely you're making great assumptions about the laws of physics not having changed? Yes, that's certainly the case. One doesn't always have to make those assumptions, of course. One thing worth remarking about this is cosmology and astronomy in general is very unusual science in the sense that when we observe very distant objects in the universe we are observing the universe actually as it was in the past, because the light that's coming towards us from a distant galaxy or cluster of galaxies actually left that object maybe millions or billions of years ago. When we see a distant galaxy we're not seeing it as it is today, we're seeing it as it was a long time ago. So when we say we want the laws of physics perhaps to stay constant in time, when we observe these objects a long way away we're observing the laws of physics as they were a long time ago. But not close to several billion years ago? Almost, but erm one could certainly arrive at a situation of the sort you're imagining that we want to be sure that when we look at some very exotic phenomena in the past of the universe, which has no parallel on earth, erm or in our vicinity, how can we be sure that the laws of physics that we've deduced on earth really apply? How do we know that the laws of nature are not really like laws of a game of chess, but played on a chess board where the laws change as you go from place to place on the chess board, which is a very more complicated situation than an ordinary chess game where the laws are the same no matter where the pieces are. And I think all we can say is that we can't be sure that that isn't the case. There is no evidence that the laws are different in the past than they are today, that they're different in different places erm, but one can investigate the possibility. It's possible to formulate theories of very simple aspects of physics where the laws or the strengths of different forces, say like gravity, actually change from place to place and make predictions as to what the observable consequences should be, erm and to a very degree of accuracy one concludes that the strengths of the forces of nature and the laws and the rules of the game are not changing from place to place. They may be of course, but we may not have looked in the right place yet to find that. I think it would be very exciting if they were changing, but I'm afraid one has to be a reluctant revolutionary at the moment — there really is no evidence for that view. I think really what happens when you go into the past is not so much that the laws that we now use change, but we just find that there are many more new rules and particles and things that can happen, so the things that we know are the same, but there are many, many more different types of interaction and particle in nature which we have no experience of, which we have to take into account. If we go back to the first few minutes, or maybe even the first few seconds, there must have been an incredibly high density of matter near that point? Yes, today the density of the universe is remarkably low. If you were to smooth out all the material there is in the universe into a uniform sort of sea of particles, you would find that the density was just about one atom in every cubic metre, which is far better than the best vacuum that you can ever make on earth by artificial means. As you go backwards in time, to say the first minute of the universe's life, the density is not absurdly high, it's only a little more than that of water, but the density of radiation is much, much higher — it's a million times higher — and the temperature is like the inside of a nuclear reactor, so one of the interesting things is that when we get back to just a minute, say, after the apparent beginning of the expansion, we're not yet dealing with any bizarre physics, we're dealing with conditions that we know and understand on earth. However, if we keep on going, extrapolating backwards into the past, when we get to about a tenth of a second, or a hundredth of a second after the beginning, if we want to push earlier than that we've got to start using physics which we cannot test directly on earth. We reach densities approaching that of the atomic nucleus, so it's about one hundredth of a second after the start that there is a real threshold. After that we use ordinary physics that we know and love and understand, but before that time we're working with uncertain physics and uncertain cosmology. But there is a bonus to that in that people hope that by testing their ideas about the uncertain physics, by building models of that early stage, that those models will have consequences for the things that get left behind in the universe for the present, and so they might be able to test their ideas about how matter behaves at very high density by using cosmology, and that's very important because we have no other way of doing it. Also, it's worth adding, it's a very, very cheap way of doing it. John, what's the chance of finding intelligent life out in the universe? Low, I think. I think one can put forward fairly persuasive arguments that there are no life forms a good deal more advanced than ourselves in our galaxy, simply because I believe that social and environmental and sort of curiosity value factors would have led them to reveal their presence in various ways. It would be very easy for an advanced civilization to produce self-reproducing space probes, which would very quickly explore a large fraction of the galaxy. There could, of course, be many civilizations similar to our own. It would be very difficult to detect them. I have rather perhaps eccentric views about this, I don't feel that we ought to be advertising our presence to external civilizations. Our experience of what happens one earth when very superior culture groups meet very inferior culture groups is rather alarming. Perhaps we ought to be spending time developing camouflage, rather than advertising our presence. It's always an assumption that intelligence goes hand in hand with benevolence and high moral values. I think there's probably a strong argument against that in human history, and I think we shouldn't naively expect these very intelligence creatures to be benevolently disposed towards us. Another interesting idea that has been suggested is that there are extra terrestrials who are very intelligent. They haven't revealed their presence because our solar system is being treated rather like a nature reserve — that they don't want to interpose themselves and spoil a very classic example of study of a lesser civilization growing up. But I think this is it's very close to science fiction — it's very hard to think of any biological argument which makes the probability of intelligent life evolving high. Astronomers tend to always think the probability is high because they think there are so many sites on which life could develop, but the biologists take completely the opposite view, that there are so many evolutionary pathways that lead to biological dead ends, that this outweighs the number of sites on which life could develop. So I think the biologists would tend to say no, there is no advanced intelligent life probably in our galaxy. Astronomers probably lean towards the idea that yes there is, and there are currently searches, I believe, in the United States erm beaming signals with characteristic wavelengths, erm in the hope that extra terrestrials will see them. Lastly, John, one of the observations I would make is that a lot of astronomers I know are people who seem to have quite strong religious convictions. Is there anything about astronomy which makes people inclined in that direction? Yes, it's an interesting point. I erm haven't done a survey of this, but from my experience of meeting people in different universities I do get the impression that there tends to be many people of a religious persuasion, whereas in the sciences of the very small, biology and so on, there is not. Of course the problem is whether erm people enter those subjects because of their religious interests, or erm whether their religious interest develops as a result of studying those subjects, but I think certainly in this country there are a large number of people who are Christians and have a religious interest who are in the astronomical sciences. This may also be because those subjects appear to offer fewer possible problems with regard to reconciling our behaviour, or everyday life, our origins perhaps, with other beliefs. One is not going to run into any social or economic or moral consequences of quasars, but you will, if you work in DNA replication erm and other areas of the physical sciences. But I think, looking back in history, there has always been a erm strong erm religious motivation behind many of the past great scientists, like Newton, erm Boyle, Maxwell, Calvin — these are all people who had a very strong religious motivation erm behind their investigations, and if you look back in history still further, there is a strong case to be made that the reason why science was so dramatically successful in the west was because there was a strong belief in monotheistic religion, that people believe that the world had been created in an ordered way by a deity and so there really were laws of nature to be discovered, whereas if you study what happened in the Far East, for example, in China, the Chinese, you remember, were well ahead of the west in science at about the tenth century. They had gunpowder and very sophisticated engineering devices well before the west, but one can document the fact that the Chinese gave up science, rather dramatically, erm in subsequent centuries, simply because they lost faith that there was any underlying order in nature to be discovered, that it was their background religion and philosophy which led them to give up the idea of unravelling the structure of the universe. They didn't think there was any law and order to be unravelled. And then when you look back to the Greeks, for example, here you have a culture that was dramatically successful in mathematics and logic and philosophy, but actually very unsuccessful in science, and there again you have a society which has nature guards erm and so nature is not a valid object for study. You can't study botany if you believe in erm flower got . John, thank you very much. Next Sunday we shall be exploring another important boundary in science. Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. On this occasion I can, without any distortion, offer you a very warm welcome to this, which is the thirty ninth in the series of great centenary lectures, which we inaugurated in nineteen hundred and seventy, which was very early in the life of the Centre for Continuing Education. As some of you will know by this time, the Centre provides custom-build courses, day schools, residential schools and other projects, for thousands of adult students in this region — mainly at locations scattered throughout the area, towns and villages of Sussex, but some here on the campus — and by so doing it tries to provide a strong functional link that helps to keep the university in touch with the community. Some might be tempted to say in touch with reality, but I think I'd prefer on this occasion to say in touch with another dimension of reality. And we hope that the influence and the benefits are reciprocal. Now as part of all this, the Centre is responsible for almost all the public lectures in the university, and we have been glad to make the open to the public at large, and therefore a very special welcome to those of you who have come in from outside. Now in planning the series of centenary lectures for this session, I was very delighted to discover that this was James Joyce's centenary year, and therefore had the chance at last to promote a lecture on him. Personally I can almost almost remember the days when erm Ulysses was a bound book only to be read in plain cover after having been smuggled through the customs at Folkestone, Dover or Newhaven. These, you might say, were the days of innocence, hypocrisy and prejudice. I don't know whether they've gone. I can even remember when Finnegans Wake was thought to be incomprehensible and the gentleman sitting on my right, George Craig, is almost, but not quite, my contemporary at this university and I was genuinely delighted when he agreed to take on the herculean task of giving a lecture a centenary lecture on James Joyce. George, not unlike his subject, has spent about half his life in Ireland west, north and south he tells me I said why not Dublin and he says that's what I meant and the rest of his life in France and England, although I'm not sure whether what drove him from Ireland was like that which drove his subjects from Ireland — no doubt we shall see. He has taught in schools and universities in Ireland and in France, and is now Reader in French in this university, having been here since nineteen sixty six. I have it on unimpeachable authority that his abiding interest is the human voice — whether the one we hear when we speak, or the one that informs and sustains us whatever we read. His specific professional concern is to have been with Aspects of Modernism, which is says is a loose name which covers the creative disruption of all certainties about what reading is, what writing is and what words can do. He has written on Malarmie , on Puste , on Beckett and on reading itself. George Craig on James Joyce. Thank you George. Thank you . The subjects of the great centenaries lectures are, unsurprisingly, as diverse as human achievement, but in at least one respect they can, by and large, be spoken of together with widespread, if not indeed universal, recognition of their greatness. To adapt a famous phrase, ‘We may not know much about their art, but we know what we're supposed to like’ and the lecturer, quite properly, both confirms and extends this recognition, so that what we find is, again quite properly, something like celebration of unity. It is a very good base to talk from and I would love to have it. What I have to recognise by contrast is that even now James Joyce, born a hundred years ago, brings not unity but division, nor does this division merely reflect some such crude opposition as highbrow and lowbrow, or even informed and uninformed. It is, of course, normal that any artist who breaks with the patterns of the past should find a sharply divided response among readers at large . The very words ‘modern art’ still carry by themselves a charge strong enough to disturb, dishearten, or even repel, some before they've read a line or listened to a note of whatever work has been given this label. It is worth remembering too that the reactions of those who accept to go further and try the new are not always quiet indicators of preference. Here we may meet, may ourselves have felt anger, revulsion, even hatred. ‘You've got to draw the line somewhere’ runs the old phrase. And so with Joyce we might talk, say, of the manageable stories of Dubliners and the still acceptable mixture of poignant retrospect and startling surges of feeling that mark the portrait of the artist as a young man. But then we have to move with Ulysses to a huge spinning-top of words which defies such judgements and leaves us clutching at apparently familiar images which so sooner appear than they are gone. And finally we would come to Finnegans Wake, apparently mocking our very attempt to read by calling in question what is, I suppose, the most basic of all assumptions about writing, that whatever form it takes it will be made up essentially of recognisable words. If then we have uneasy feelings about modern art, it looks as if Joyce must confirm them a thousandfold. Yet, even here, there is a puzzle, a strange, unplaceable something which doesn't quite fit with that account of the gradual driving out of the reader and the suggestion of a steady shift towards the rare and the difficult, for I would guess that anyone not put off in advance by suspicion or hearsay, anyone that is who has got as far as dipping into Ulysses, say, will have come hard up against things that are startlingly, even discomfortingly, recognisable. Words, of course, phrases, images, sequences, which connect with the very core of our inner experience, whether at its humblest or at its grandest. And then again if agonisings about modern are seem to take us in one direction, the banning of books as reminded us, takes us in quite another, and we have to remember that for all practical purposes it was indeed a banned book for nearly fifteen years, from the Twenties into the Thirties. We are not, we think, so easily shocked now by the naming of the ways of need and desire, and that label too will be a poor guide to the kaleidoscopic experience which Ulysses draws us into. Here it would be tempting to assume, whether modestly or angrily, that there is another group of readers — the sophisticated, the expert, the professional, for whom such problems simply don't exist, or have long since been left behind. These readers, the assumption might run, are at ease with the complexities of rhythm and vision, pattern and play, and united by this ease are free to discriminate more and more finally the detail of the smallest fragment or the structure or the entire work. You may well think indeed that I'm wasting your time in calling this an assumption rather than recognising it as a plain fact. The critical and biographical studies already written to Joyce and his work would stop a sizeable bookshop. More are appearing all the time, and nineteen eighty two will be no more than a particularly rich year for them. And nor is it simply a question of numbers — among these studies are some of the subtlest, most ingenious and most penetrating essays written in our time, and the factor common to almost all, the naive or the clumsy as well as the brilliant, is the conviction explicit or implicit that Joyce is an outstanding, indeed for some the outstanding, modern writer. The status of his work for some approaching that of the sacred book. Surely here is, after all, that unity of celebration which earlier I claimed as missing. Not so. I suggested a second or so ago that the ordinary reader, unsure of what to make of the shifting realities of Joyce's writing, might defensively assume that no such hesitations would trouble the experienced reader, but that is far from being a homogeneous class. Among experienced readers, including those most passionately concerned with modernism, there are some for whom Joyce occupies nothing like so central a position, some for whom the whole drift of the later work is radically misconceived, even a colossal mistake. We are back again in disputed ground. In the bewildering tracery formed by the work and by the claims and counter-claims that it has provoked, there is matter for a hundred lectures, and what follows is neither and attempt to summarize, nor a rival undertaking. I want rather, by focusing on a small number of closely related questions, and simple ones at that, to suggest something of how all this came about and why it matters. What I have to say would bear essentially on the four works named, and would be grouped round three notions which I shall call language as rescue, language as screen, and language as replay. First rescue. One sense of that is obvious enough. Everywhere in the stories that make up Joyce's first major work, Dubliners, we come across a double reality, an invariable focus on the precise detail of place and person, class and bearing, speech and gesture. The kind of attention that we usually associate with love or hate, and at the same time an acute awareness of limits, of closed worlds, of helplessness, of traps of unsatisfiable longing — the sort of awareness that we associate rather with pity or fear. Even as we admire the sharpness, the delicacy, of the delineation, of this self-sacrificing old maid, that lowly and tormented man, this uncertain child — even as we admire, we see too the hopelessness that these so powerfully suggest. But because it is a writer who is giving us this, and a writer at the beginning of his career, what more natural than that we should see him as writing his way out of all this, as ‘getting it out of his system’ as we say, clearing the ground for work that will enact triumphantly his escape, his liberation, his hope. And again and again in the stories comes the hint of separateness, of difference, as if to confirm this. Say, from the first story, The Sisters, a little moment like this one ‘It's bad for children’ said Old Cotter ‘because their minds are so impressionable. When children see things like that, you know, it has an affect.’ I crammed my mouth with for fear I might give utterance to my anger. Tiresome old red-nosed imbecile.’ Or again that difference seen the other way round, as in these lines from the last great story, The Dead. ‘He stretched himself cautiously along under the sheets and lay down beside his wife. One by one they were all becoming shades. Better pass boldly into that other world in the full glory of some passion, than fade and wither dismally with age. He thought of how she who lay beside him had locked in her heart for so many years that image of her lover's eyes when he had told her that he did not wish to love. Generous tears filled Gabriel's eyes. He had never felt like that himself towards any woman, but he knew that such a feeling must be love. The tears gathered more thickly in his eyes and in the partial darkness he imagined he saw the form of a young man standing under a dripping tree. Other forms were near. His sole had approached that region where dwell the vast hosts of the dead. He was conscious of, but could not apprehend, their wayward and flickering existence.’ The beauty of these words cannot entirely hide a sense of suggested differentness, of an essential something so far held back but pushing now to get out. It is this sense which seems to be given the clearest possible confirmation in those moments of the portrait of the artist, where the brooding Stephen, Stephen Daedalus , suddenly emerges from his vigilance in a lightening display of strength. Here, from the portrait, are two of them. ‘It's a curious thing, do you know’ Cranley said dispassionately, ‘how your mind is supersaturated with the religion in which you say you disbelief. Did you believe it when you were at school? I bet you did.’ ‘I did’, Stephen answered. ‘And were you happier then?’ Cranley asked softly. ‘Happier than you are now, for instance?’ ‘Often happy’ Stephen said ‘and often unhappy.’ ‘I was someone else then.’ ‘How someone else? What do you mean by that statement?’ ‘I mean’, said Stephen, ‘that I was not myself as I am now, as I had to become.’ ‘Oh this again.’ Stephen walked on alone and out into the quiet of Kildare Street. Opposite Maples Hotel he stood to wait, patient again, the name of the hotel a colourless, polished wood, and it's colourless quiet front stung him like a glance of polite disdain. He stared angrily back and the softly lit drawing room of the hotel, in which he imagined the sleek lives of the patricians of Ireland, housed in calm. They thought of army commissions and land agents. Peasants greeted them along the roads in the country. They knew the names of certain French dishes and gave orders to Jarveys in high pitched provincial voices, which pierced through their skin-tight accents. How could he hit their conscience? How cast his shadow over the imaginations of their daughters before their squires beget upon them that they might breed a race less ignoble than their own? And under the deepened dusk he felt the thoughts and desires of the race to which he belonged flitting like bats across the dark country bogs.’ And I've still not quoted the best known of those displays of otherness — these we shall come to later. For the moment let me repeat that what all this seems to point to as natural is the self-imposed exile which will allow the artist figure, whether Stephen or Joyce himself, to create a new world, with the language of the writer as his ticket, his lifeline, his rescue. But strong though that thrust is, it is not rescue in that sense that I want to argue for here. Bear with me for a moment more as I come towards it, while I read you yet more lines from another moment of the portrait, and keep in mind, if you will, from a moment ago, Stephen's contemptuous review of the holders of wealth and power in Ireland. ‘Often as he sat in Davin's rooms in Grantham Street, wondering at his friend's well made boots that flanked the wall pair by pair, and repeating for his friend's simple ear the verses and cadences of others which with the veils of his own longing dejection, the rude pheoboric mind of his listener had drawn his mind towards it and flung it back again, drawing it by a quiet inbred courtesy of attention, or by a quaint turn of Old English speech, or by the force of its delight in rude bodily skills, for Davin had sat at the feet of Michael Cussack the game, repelling it swiftly and suddenly by a grossness of intelligence, or by a bluntness of feeling, or by a dull stare of terror in the eyes, the terror of sole of starving Irish village in which the curfew was still a nightly fear. Side by side, with his memory of the deeds of prowess, of his Uncle Matt Davin , the athlete, the young peasant worshipped the sorrowful legend of Ireland. His muse had taught him Irish — his nurse had taught him Irish, beg your pardon — and shaped his rude imagination by the broken lights of Irish myth. Whatsoever of thought or feeling came to him from England, or by way of English culture, his mind stood armed against in obedience to a password, and of the world that lay beyond England he knew only the Foreign Legion of France in which he spoke of serving. One night the young peasant, his spirit stunned by the violent or luxurious language in which Stephen escaped from the cold silence of intellectual revolt, had called up before Stephen's mind a strange vision. The two were walking slowly towards Davin's room. ‘A thing happened to myself Stevie, last autumn, coming on winter and I never told it to a living soul. And you are the first person now I ever told it to. I disremember if it was October or November — it was October, 'cos it was before I came up here to join the matriculation class.’ Stephen had turned his smiling eyes towards his friend's face, flattered by his confidence and won over to sympathy by the speaker's simple accent.’ Now there is more to this passage than either the story that it heralds, poignant and memorable though that is, or the condescending tone of the last sentence, for the innocence Davin embodies brings to Stephen as a brute fact from the real world the missing half of a truth which Stephen has known but so far been unable to admit even to himself, and which will go on mattering to Joyce for many years. For as long as a Stephen, in his moments of strength, has been able to despise the arbiters of fortune and culture — the English and the Anglo Irish — as degenerate and unworthy inheritors of the language of Shakespeare, he has done so from somewhere, from a somewhere intimately known, and yet never entirely placed, from what might loosely be called Irishness. Standing on that base, felt as solid but as yet unexamined, he can look ahead of him at the task, which is writing, in possession of the means to carry out that task, which is his language, but suddenly that vision is revealed as fantasy. Stephen cannot stand alone facing the task and the world, quietly, unassumingly,Davin has appeared behind him. Davin , whatever his limitations, is standing on and in an Irishness which can be and is described and mapped, which is not a neutral zone, and which feeds and is fed by a language. The world is in front of Stephen and behind him, as in some terrible children's game he is caught in the middle of a circle, in a kind of nowhere. He has no language, only an awareness of the languages of others. erm anyone who has read the Portrait of the Artist will know the dizzying swings of feeling that chart Stephen's progress from arrogance to abjectness, from despair to hope, from self-sufficiency, to the craving for comfort, or the voluptuousness of renunciation. And they can all be tied to episodes or events, sexual experience, hurt pride, felt guilt, ecstatic awareness. I want only to suggest that however closely those match, however complete they are, therefore, in the pairs they form, they all also work as imagines of the writer's relation to language, now confident, now uncertain, now lonely, now roistering and so on. And this is something more than a literary point. Indeed, it is because it can't be a literary point for Joyce or for anyone from Ireland who's business is words, because language forever figures urgent and personal issues of belonging, of debt, of loss, of freedom and of dependence, because it is and does all this. The very notion of making a literary point about the writer's relation to language, however true, will have a cruelly mocking echo. What then can this Stephen, who is so piercingly aware of these things, and yet who proposes to be a writer, what can he do? If he is to write at all he must, in the final irony, turn to language. Something of that strange that strangeness and that irony lies behind the famous claim ‘I will try to express myself in some mode of life for art as freely as I can and as wholly as I can, using for my defence the only arms I allow myself to use — silence, exile and cunning. Among the many things we hear in that oracular phrase is, against the odds, a bitterly won conception of language as rescue. I suggested a little time ago that the surface indications offered both by Joyce's life and by his writing up to including The Portrait — he does leave Ireland to live with his Nora in Triest, in Switzerland, in France, in Switzerland again, until his death in nineteen forty one, visiting Dublin for the last time in nineteen hundred and twelve — he does give us in Dubliners and The Portrait a sharp sense of the traps he feels he must escape from, the church tentacular, pervasive, the seedy provincialism, the narrowness, the philistine complacency. I suggested that the evidence seemed, in the context of language as rescue, to promise a whole new set of preoccupations, to a point where even those undertakings Stephen had given to rework the stiff clay of his race, even these can seem unduly influenced by his still being among them. But if it makes easy sense when we learn that after the ground clearing achieved in the early publications Joyce sets to work on an enormous new fictional venture, guesses about new preoccupations and the leaving behind of old collapse in face of the reality of Ulysses, for in it we read, among a thousand turnings and an wanderings, of a single day, the sixteenth of June nineteen hundred and four, in Dublin, and how two characters, separately and together, live out that day among the welter of their acquaintance, their needs and deeds and thoughts, their places of refuge and of risk, and if one of these two, Leopold Bloom, is new, the other is Stephen Daedalus, and Dublin is everywhere in the novel, almost to the point where everywhere is Dublin. Is Joyce then moving back, rather than moving on? Both the terms and the meaning of that question are less simple than they seem. It is time we took up the second of my headings, language as screen. There too there is no straightforward unchallengeable meaning, but let's see how far we can get with one immediately obvious sense of screen — that it is a something, noticeable in itself, behind which other things happen. And the language of Ulysses is noticeable in countless ways, taking now to the staccato bursts of signal flickering half thoughts, or the ebb and flow of daydream, now to extended disputation, now to pastiche, now to grotesque imaginings, now to the flattest or the sharpest of conversational exchanges. The shifts in pace, in tone, in level, come at us without warning, so that even as one part of the brain tries to grasp at this or that, to make sense of it before moving on, the rest responds to the exhilaration of being swept along the verbal equivalent of a ghost railway. For among the effects is one that is new, and that nothing that I've said so far could have suggested this very exuberance, as well as the things it plays on, can make us smile or laugh. Take this tiny sample: Leopold Bloom, the Dublin Jew, with his touching mixture of timorousness and courage, has looked in for a few moments at a church as a Mass is ending. We grasp the occasion only through the disjointed reflections. Some of that old sacred music is splendid,mercadante , seven last words, Mozart's Twelfth Mass, the glory in that. Those old popes were keen on music, on art, and statues and pictures of all kinds. Palestrena , for example, too. They had a gay old time while it lasted, healthy too, chanting, regular hours, then brew liqueurs benedictine, green chartreuse. Still having eunuchs in the choirs that was coming it a bit thick. What kind of voice is it? It must be curious to hear after their own strong bases — connoisseurs. I suppose they wouldn't feel anything after Kind of a placet, no worry. Fall into flesh, don't they? Gluttons, tall, long legs — who knows. Eunuch — one way out of it. Well consider again this brief moment, where we're given a new glimpse of someone last seen surrounded by a God-like power, the rector of Clongoes , where the young and impressionable Stephen had been to school. ‘He walked by the tree shade of sunny winking leaves, and towards him came the wife of Mr David Shehee MP. ‘Very well indeed, Father. And you Father?’ Oh Father Conmey was wonderfully well, indeed. He would go to Buxton, probably, for the waters and her boys would be getting on well at Belvedere. Was that so. Father Conmey was very glad indeed to hear that. And Mr Shehee himself? The house was still sitting — to be sure it was. Beautiful weather it was, delightful indeed. Yes it was very probable that Father Bernard Vaughan would come again to preach. Oh yes, a very great success. A wonderful man really.’ And from such moments as these we will be whirled to the uproarious, the piercing, the magdalen, the strange and the voluptuous. Our screen, then, is no colourless obstacle, but a bewilderingly decorated surface that constantly draws our attention, tempting us with the thought that here is all. That to read the novel is to attend exclusively to the detail of a patterning. And there are many readers, quick and subtle ones, for whom that is so, and for whom, of course, the sense of screen, which I have been suggesting, can serve no purpose. At the same time, this screen, these games with and in words, can even now frighten off those readers who feel they must always know where they are when they read, or irritate those who see the games as a form of deliberate teasing or provocation. But since it is part of my intention to suggest how and why the work of Joyce provokes exceptional division among its readers, I shall, for that reason and for others which will emerge, keep the notion of screen in front of you. And that takes us to the question of what it is that might be going on behind the screen — a question which leads not only forward and to Ulysses and beyond, but backwards, into a reconsideration of Dubliners and The Portrait of the Artist. For if, as I suggested, the enormous vitality of the language of Ulysses can, among other things, make us smile and even laugh out loud, that fact alone will underscore how little room there is for laughter in the earlier texts. Is this, then, the rescue that I spoke of? That certainly would fit very well with the familiar notion of a writer shaking off the anguished preoccupations of childhood and adolescence, free now in his maturity to put ironic distance between himself and that world, but it won't do. Let me catch up here some points left in suspension. There is first the fascinated attention we find in the stories that make up Dubliners. I suggested that the insistent gaze, the awareness of detail, were of the kind we associate with love or hate, while the persistent emphasis on traps or limits that can never be crossed belonged rather with the very different forces of pity or fear. Now these don't just add up or cancel out. The common claim the that the stories are remarkable for their even tone seems to me to miss the point. Love and hate are violent. They get things done. Pity and fear slow us down, or send us away. But there is one kind of feeling that can hold them all together — desperation. Not despair, not that last wild flailing about before we disappear into the pit, but desperation. In it we cannot go to any of the extremes because we are aware of them all. We are pulled this way and that, but the effect of these contradictory pulls is to leave us fixed in the middle. Now of course the stories are about people caught in this way. Such a one as Evelyn, who has the chance to escape with her Frank from the life of drudgery she has with her awful father. Frank, going ahead of her to the boat, turns for her. ‘She felt him seize her hand. ‘Come.’ All the seas of the world tumbled about her heart. He was drawing her into them. He would drown her. She gripped with both hands at the iron railing. ‘Come.’ No, no — it was impossible.’ And Evelyn stays, and Frank is gone, and the story is done. Evelyn and the others are, indeed, with greater or lesser urgency and awareness, immobile in desperation, but I want to suggest that for Joyce it is not the dispassionate artist's gaze which alone allows that strange steadiness commentators have called and even tone. It is not just the characters who know desperation. It confronts and surrounds Joyce too. Now he it is, of course, who creates them, and by that very fact can claim to have moved triumphantly beyond immobility — the overall achievement of Dubliners, and within the stories the hints of differentness of which I spoke. But what is for the most part in these stories a quiet desperation, is achieved at the cost of suppressing part of his own awareness, part of his own truth, and how bad that was we begin to see with The Portrait. Something else I've left hanging rather dangerously in the air is another and rather different hint, and because of the close correspondence of their careers, the milestones along their way, Stephen Daedalus is merely another name for James Joyce, so that the portrait itself would be a blow by blow account of its author's story so far, with the relevant identities politely concealed under pseudonyms. Neither the one nor the other is the case. And this we come at not through consulting Joyce's biography, but through attending to the forces at work in his writing. The space of desperation is a wide one, and if there is room in it for little stunted people, there is room too for figures that are a mile or an inch high. Stephen will be both. If immobility is one of its effects, the swinging between the extremes that bound it — love and hate, pity and fear — is another, and that is how Stephen will move. And if given to us as actual temptations, the rather lure of the church, the Reverend Simon Stephen Daedalus SJ, and the lure of the flesh ‘He closed his eyes, surrendering himself to her body and mind, conscious of nothing in the world but the dark pressure of her softly parting lips’. If these are given to us as actual temptations, there is no less of temptation in the resounding sentence that is the last but one of the portrait. ‘I go to encounter for the millionth time the reality of experience and to forge in the smithy of my soul the uncreated conscience of my race.’ There, indeed, is Stephen hero, a young Titan, who is about to topple the gods. The serene and powerful artist figure, who remains within or beyond or above his handiwork. Invisible, refined out of existence, indifferent, paring his finger nails. But Joyce, his creator, is watching him as one of his own timorous school boys might watch a particularly daring companion, admiring, fearful, disapproving, conscious of unresolved guilt, above all divided. Irishness and Englishness framed one difficulty from which language had to provide the rescue. Stephen has gone through confession, and is, he declares, ‘Ready to forge that language’, but he declares it in a language that will not yet take Joyce out of desperation. What language will allow his confession to be made and yet not heard will by itself bring absolution and so release hi, yet all the while create his novel. It is as part answer to that question that I have put forward the notion of language as screen, the dazzling play of words and tones, fragments, sequences, movements this way and that — calls constantly to the eye and ear of the reader. But even as eye and ear follow the darting changes here and there, as if they were the only reality, even as that happens we are made aware that the great screen is showing some sharply outlined human scene — the easy or awkward coming together of acquaintances in this pub, that cemetery, this newspaper office, that maternity hospital, library or brothel the making and the unmaking of friendships and hopes — the experience of solitude. And then the scene itself divides. In one version it is the highly particularized action of networks of people in the network of streets that is Dublin on one day and another, suggested to us as early as the title and continued through innumerable associations and hints, it is a vast and teeming world through which and erratic journeying is taking its course in space and time, inner and outer. These intimations of universal and particular timeless and now reach readers whether or not they have learned to call the sections of Ulysses by the names of episodes, characters, or places taken from the Odyssey. Granted all that richness and diversity, to talk of language as screen may well seem simply perverse, even ungrateful, but just as we can't attend to the patterning without also seeing the patterns, the scenes, so the whole virtuoso performance is counterpointed by a performance of a different kind, the intricately woven language screen. Looked at from another angle is the grill of the confessional. There is a murmur of many voices about it, but the one that comes through is not that of Stephen Daedalus, a little older now, but still recognisably kin to the Stephen of The Portrait, not his voice, but that of Leopold Bloom. Bloom is physically unimpressive, is incapable of Stephen's fierce intellectual of aesthetic leaps. He lacks social adroitness, or any kind of personal magnetism, as he struggles to hold down a charmless job which depends on the goodwill of others. He is Jewish — that is condemned to be an outsider in a world which knows only the Catholic many and the Protestant few. He is a husband who recites with dull pain the continuing succession of his wife's lovers, while he must comfort himself with fantasies — his own, or the kind printed on cheap paper. How can he matter? In the screen of language the words that make him up are no more than some amongst many, a detail in the pattern, as a grotesque might be in early painting, or the straight man in a comic duo. But in the novel of which that screen is part, in the total enterprise, he matters very much and in different, crucial ways. To start with, there is separate screening mechanism for Bloom himself. He is presented to us in the first instance, and decisively, but his failures, his weaknesses, his inadequacies. The small, sad, trapped figures we met in Dubliners were, for the most part, you might say, given a quick deliverance, each firmly located within his or her narrow circle and then left. It is as if the economy, the restraint of much of the writing passed over onto them to give them a curious accidental dignity. With Bloom the most secret stirrings of bowels or brains are exposed. The defeats and backslidings are not only those forced on him by others, or by circumstances, but those too, less pitiably, which come from within him. It is as if he were all The Dubliners rolled into one. He is everybody's butt, not least that of his wife, Molly. Yet, too keenly aware of his own different failings, to be able to outface them all. Such aspirations as he has are short-lived, stick almost in the throat, as the notes of the song might in the throat of an unconfident would-be singer. And so gently, uncertainly, yet doggedly, he makes his way along through this day as, we must suppose, through the whole of his life thus far. Why then, given all this, do we see and hear so much of him? If he can be put in his place by anyone, young or old, male or female, why do we come across him everywhere? Can the great Odysseus , strong and decisive, have shrunk to this Ulysses? Well the obvious explanation is that that is the point that our modern hero, the connecting thread that runs through the whole design, can have none of the grandeur of the ancient one. But again, and in more than one sense, we see too much of Bloom for that to be the whole explanation. We can get a little further by remembering that the affect of the screen is to present him by way of his weaknesses and limitations. So unambiguously marked are these, that they draw attention away from other features of his — his odd stock of knowledge and his quiet eagerness to increase it — his unassuming inclination for the arts, and particularly music something different from the practical awareness that comes from being married to a singer — his compassion — his steadfastness. We do not always laugh when all or any mock him. We do not always dismiss him when he is left trailing by the brilliant or the powerful. I have suggested already that he is all The Dubliners combined — the lost child, the resigned girl, the lonely or frustrated man, the seeker of false comfort — now I want to come at his importance from a different angle. The Stephen of The Portrait also knows intermittent humiliation — the brutality of school fellows, or teachers, the sole grinding slide into poverty, the self-revulsion at sexual indulgence, the after effects of surrender to the embodied authority of priests, the awareness of cultural isolation. But however low he is brought, the urgent forward and upward drive of the writing gives us such moments as stages on the way to eventual triumph. The humiliations may show us the strength of the opposition which the world, temporal and spiritual, sets up against him, but they promise too the kind of imaginative and moral strength which will raise him about it. They herald those final reverberant sentences in The Portrait. But I suggested too that the resolution — this resolution — was something that Joyce saw and wrote, not something he yet new. Stephen can confess his weaknesses, but he can go on to say ‘You talk to me of nationality, language, religion. I shall try to fly by those nets.’ He can break out of the space of desperation. For Joyce there is unresolved business. There is first the admission of cravings, sexual and other, felt as unspeakably ignoble, and there is the unappeased fear that the very gifts on whose existence all rescue depends might be mere fantasy, delusion. That he may be destined to drift helplessly, tormented by unrealisable and therefore useless dreams. A bit of a singer, a bit of an artist, a bit of a man. If Bloom is every kind of Dubliner it is because it falls to him to transact the unfinished business, to enact it and to get beyond it without dazzling gifts. As he makes his way along within the quiet desperation of his life, he must reveal himself to us as cuckold, fetishist, masochist, outsider, victim, inferior, loser. Only that order of revelation of confession will permit recognition. Bloom is not, and will not become, a hero. He is not Joyce any more or any less than Stephen is, but Stephen can only fly by the nets of nationality, language, religion and artistic mediocrity because Bloom cannot. Bloom must accept a particular life so that Joyce need not, and Stephen must be shown in his byronic self-deception so that Joyce need not. The stories of Dubliners are not only disturbingly sharp representations from outside, they are fed too from inside by an intuitive closeness, an awareness that comes near to identification with these and those victims, male and female. Stephen and Bloom are brought together in the final stages of Ulysses so that at last the space of desperation can be closed, the vertical pull of Stephen's iron ambition, set against the downward sucking force of Blooms ordinariness. The new writing can go forward without being founded on a central lie. The most famous of all the sections of Ulysses, Molly Bloom's final soliloquy is above all a celebration of that freedom, and the freedom thus won. Molly is not every woman, or indeed any woman. She is, above all, Joyce's central recognition, exultant recognition that yearning is not defeat and identification is not a proof of some fatal inner yielding to the pull of mediocrity. The vivid renderings of human prisons that we find in Dubliners are intensified, I have argued by secret sharings. And the deepest of those secret sharings are with the child figure, the earliest stories of course, and with the women. Evelyn, or Maria, in the story Clay, or the nameless girl in Two Gallants, or Greta Conroy in The Dead. For these above all, the culture insists, must hide their wound beyond the receiving end of experience, whatever their gifts or desires. The issue of identification takes off, we have seen, in a different direction in The Portrait. For here the emphasis is on the emergence of Stephen's strength from the very depth of his own weakness. But as we also saw, that strength comes too soon, denies too much. It is indeed still there, to be built on, in Ulysses in the further elaboration of Stephen, but it cannot be fully achieved unless the wounds are acknowledged. And now it is a man of sorts who carries that acknowledgement. A man who is a new kind of victim, Bloom the Jew, the semi-talented outcast. But I said too a man of sorts, for the acknowledgement now includes crippled masculinity, and with that Joyce is free to embody and enact a different fear hinted at before in, for example, The Dead, but masked by the victim's status of the woman thrust on so cruelly by the culture. But the culture can be not only cruel but stupid. What if real sexual freedom, real potency, real power, belonged in fact with the woman? Molly's mixture of self-loving languor and irrepressible vitality is a splendid realization in its own right, but it also conjures a profound fear. And so it comes about, at the end of all the wanderings, that we find under one roof, in decaying Echo Street, that strangest of couples, Molly and Leopold Bloom and Stephen Daedalus. Now at last dream and reality, part and whole, strong and weak, art and life, active and passive, can be confronted. Joyce has pulled together the separation representations of his inner world, achieved his rescue and finished his novel — cause indeed for celebration. But there is a world of difference between celebration and victory. If there is any one awareness common to the great modern writers, it is that language will not do our bidding, that good or bad intentions do not so much pave roads, as poke up odd coloured weeds through the roadway. That something actually achieved in writing gives no assurance, to reassurance for any writing still to be done. It is a version of something we all know now, and largely thanks to them. For if, as ordinary people, we are acutely aware that when it most matters the words we say are not thunderbolts from heaven but hostages to fortune, ways in which we reveal ourselves in our limitedness and imperfection. If we are aware of this, we at least know that it must always have been so. What in their different ways a , a , an Eliot, a Kafka or a Beckett — what they have had to come to terms with his the death of a tenacious pervasive yet curiously imprecise myth that somehow writing was different, that the masters of the past could in some way overcome this limitedness, that writing carried its own justification. With the myth gone, they were faced rather with what Eliot called the intolerable wrestle with words and meanings, or, as Beckett was to put it, nothing to express, nothing with which to express nothing, from which to express, no power to express, no desire to express, together with the obligation to express. In this perspective to set up as a writer at all is an extraordinary act, while artist becomes a word only to be invoked only of others, never about the self. Yet it is just this act which Joyce accepted to do. The energy and the single-mindedness with which, following on the achievement of Ulysses, he carried it through can still amaze us. For if, as I have argued, the dual difficulty of Englishness versus Irishness and of the divided self had lent and existential urgency to aesthetic ambitions and convictions, that urgency had surely gone. Dublin and the past had been exorcised, even as the new fiction had been created. But creation and the means of creation had thrown up a new an utterly unexpected difficulty. If Joyce's energy had been concentrated in the forging of a language adequate to resolve all that had been, then that language, whatever else it had done, had achieved something for him. Something remained out there which had not been subjected to the same refining fire. That something was language itself. It is to the netting of that protean reality that Joyce now bends all his energies, and my mixing of metaphors can give no more than the faintest hint of what that strange act entails. It is this that I had in mind in proposing at the outset my three notions and calling one of them, the last, language as replay. Replay — somewhere between re-run, the taking up again of a game, return match, and revenge — somewhere in that space is the verbal world called Finnegans Wake. Within the frame that we have never left, Dublin, and which we meet again in the opening sentence, is to be enacted strange as the dreaming that permeates it, Joyce's relation to his languages, to language. Past, present, future, here, there, inner, outer, self, other, quotation, allusion, portmanteau word, syllable, letter and grunt — all whirl about two poles, their names forever changing, their enduringness graspable only by initials, A L P — the river, the Liffey, the woman and H C E, the man. And as in Dreams separate realities can fuse in a single image or sequence, so here words fuse as Joyce attempts to cast in a single form the body of his culture, the depth, variety, the body of his feelings — the feelings of his body. Here indeed is the assault on the gods, Stephen's boast unimaginably extended. In view of this, it would be no more than proper and right for me to talk in some in great detail about it, but I am not going to, and not just because I have an eye on the clock, or an ear for the protest of stomachs. Perhaps I can explain, and in order to explain I'll tell you a story, a literary story. When we read Eliot's The Wasteland, we know we can never hope to speak it aloud satisfactorily. Even as the siren voices in the poem call us towards speech, we're aware that our own one voice can never hope to carry all these as we would want it to. But they do call us towards speech, so that at least in the urgency and the felt inadequacy of our attempt to speak, erm to speak those words and lines, we can act out something of the quality and kind of our response, our shadowy awareness of what these incomparable and shrieking voices meant to the Eliot who was fighting for his own voice. Such attempts as we can make are essential. Catching up, however badly, our recognition of the decisive tension between eye and ear. I can conceive no response, no criticism which does not include the practical recognition of that tension, but such is the nature of Joyce's last venture that I cannot, without cheating, read to you from it. It is to the eye that you must turn if you are to read Finnegans Wake. Here in the final work, the shaping of a total unity, there returns a crucial division, and because I cannot read from it, even badly, I will not talk about it, which leaves intact your freedom to go and read it. Read this proliferating, surging, skipping, mocking, smiling, looping torrent — what an enterprise it is — a man taking on human language. And not just some great abstract notion either, for the assault bears also on that aspect of language which embodies authority, the rules of language, those terrible received truths, which at least the older ones amongst you will remember. That a preposition is a bad thing to end a sentence with, or that you can't have a sentence with out a verb. That certain words are less acceptable than others. Above all, that the word is the irreducible, the minimum unit, itself enshrined for every in the silver columns of the dictionary. Division then returns, for this is a struggle to the death, or life. The very notion of struggle will, of course, trigger widely varied responses among readers, quickening some, frightening others, bewildering yet others again. But if writing is not done in neutral ground, neither is reading. Let us therefore remind ourselves of the huge distances, inner and outer, that Joyce has travelled, and take one final look at his total undertaking. There is a famous line by another Irishman, Yeates, a line too often thought to be transparent ‘Romantic Ireland's dead and gone’. Don't you believe it. Thank you, Hercules. I am very sure that you will agree with me, if I may borrow a phrase from Joyce, that we all hope that it's not at all unlikely that George Craig will come again to preach. His preaching was an outstanding success, and whatever exceptional divisions Joyce's work may continue to provoke among his readers, and whatever perhaps less exceptional divisions George Craig's lecture may create among some of the audience in respect of the substance of his arguments, and how could it not given the generous measure and richness of what he offered, there would be no division on the quality of his craftsmanship and the beguiling nature of his themes. If I may speak as one who has heard all the centenary lectures and restraining myself from being invidious, I will merely say: George, it was an admirable centenary lecture, and the huge spinning top of words, despite its complexity, kept the patterns clear and sharp and arguable. I got some very new insights, in fact I'm going to look up to see whether Bloom's reflections on the eunuchs in the erm church were written in the same colour as some passages in Molly Bloom's soliloquy. Most important of all, I think, there was an air of excitement, enthusiasm and high intellectual quality. What more could we ask for? Thank you very much indeed. Hello. The parents of children with dyslexia and other learning difficulties face their own set of problems. Today on Ideas in Action we'll discuss these problems and suggest some options open to local parents. To start with I went along to visit local parent, Mrs Audrey Durrant, who told me the main problem she faces as the mother of a ten year old dyslexic boy. Trying to get the child to go to school. There's usually some sort of scene in the morning. He doesn't want to get up or get dressed and get off to school. There's some worry about something — either he's not going to be able to do the work, someone's going to laugh or has been laughing at him, he doesn't think the teacher's going to understand, and it's generally a terrible problem first thing in the morning to get him to get ready and get to school. What do you do to encourage him? Try and find out what the problems are and find an answer to them, but sometimes this is extremely difficult. Sometimes he's so determined he's not going to go that we have to forcibly put him out of the door and get him into the car and get him there somehow. As a parent, what would you like to see happen in the schools, or what sort of schooling would you best think would suit your child's needs? Well I don't think an ordinary school can really cope with a dyslexic child, and I don't think it's fair to expect them to do so. I mean they have all the other children to teach and a dyslexic child has certain problems which need individual care and attention. Therefore I think it would be a better idea if units could be set up and the children could be taken out of an ordinary school for perhaps one or two or three years, according to how much time is required, where they could give the individual attention and the specialist teaching to help them to overcome this particular problem. How did you first recognise that your child was dyslexic? Well we'd always had the problem going to school. He seemed bright enough and very eager to learn, but when I went to the school to see his work I found that his handwriting was very, very bad and his spelling was absolutely atrocious, and although he was good at mathematics, as time went on he began to get very worried and very upset about it and when I looked at his work I realized that he was doing a lot of the words back to front and was getting the direction of figures mixed up. Reversing the numbers? Reversing the numbers. If the answer to the sum was twenty four, he'd put forty two, and starting the sum the wrong side and getting very confused. And then I began to become very worried about it and it just happened by chance that one Friday morning I heard a programme on Radio Brighton, and it was Doctor Wisbey speaking about dyslexia, and it dawned on me immediately that my son was dyslexia. And so I wrote in to Radio Brighton, and Doctor Wisbey very kindly saw my son and confirmed that he was, in fact, dyslexic. Do children with learning difficulties have problems other than reading and writing? Well Mrs Durrant says yes. Usually there's a co-ordination problem. Things like skipping were extremely difficult for him to do, playing football, running, all of those are very difficult. I asked Mrs Durrant what suggestion she could offer local parents whose children have similar difficulties. Well I think if you think that there's something wrong, see the teacher and the headmistress immediately. Ask if you can see the Educational Psychologist to discuss the problem with them, and really try and get specialist help. And if your child is dyslexic, reassure them that they are not the only child, there are other children who share this problem, that they in fact are not stupid, or mad — and quite often they think they are mad, they can understand what is wrong with them because they don't really understand what they're supposed to be doing. There are many adults who've had to face up to this problem and have, in actual fact, overcome it Susan Hampshire is one; I believe Hans Anderson, also, has suffered from this difficulty — that with help they can overcome this and live a normal life. I know you and other parents with you are working to set up a special dyslexic unit in the Brighton area. How are your efforts going and what do you hope to accomplish? Well we very much would like to start a unit in January, but this is extremely difficult because of all the cuts in education and the education office really hasn't got the money to start a unit now. We are desperately, desperately, in need of funds. I think it's about five thousand that we really require to establish and equip this unit. We've had coffee mornings and various other sales, but they're very badly attended. We had one yesterday — hardly anybody came. This is very disheartening and very disappointing because this is a major problem and it makes so much difference to the lives of these children. Some of these children, if they were given this attention over a two year period, could overcome this and go into the secondary school able to cope and take their place alongside the other children, and this is desperately important. Dyslexic children have so many interests and this is very frustrating for them. My son, for example, loves science, he's very interested in engineering, he's interested in astronomy, he wants to find out everything he can about them. We go to the library, he goes round the library, he gets books out that he wants to bring home and read, and of course when we get home he's not able to read them. I try and read as much as I can, but this extremely difficult when one's a mother with a family and there are other children as well to look after. The worst thing for my son is that what he would like to do more than anything else in all the world is to be able to read like other people. Where can local parents turn for help with such problems? Well one place is the East Sussex Dyslexic Association. Chairperson Mary Nash-Wortham states the Association's Function. Our Association was formed nearly ten years ago and is aimed at helping parents to solve their children's problems through a local based scheme where they may contact a teacher who's qualified in their local area and that teacher will see the child and advise the parents whether individual tuition would help him. Any parent is very welcome to contact me as Chairman of the East Sussex Dyslexia Association on Eastbourne three four seven six two. The address is sixty eight, Pashley Road, Eastbourne, or our local contact, who is a teacher, Mr David Pollack of thirty, Coleman Street, Brighton. Other options are available to parents, both inside and outside the schools, Mary Nash-Wortham reports. Local parents should discuss the possibilities with the head of their child's school, and if possible get the child referred to the psychologist, who will assess the child for intelligence. If this method is barred because the headmaster does not agree that the child might have a learning difficulty called dyslexia, then the parents will have to go outside the school system and possibly go to the Dyslexia Institute at Staines, where a full assessment is carried out, with a report, which is sent to the parents. Unfortunately this is not part of the National Health Service, and the parents will have to pay a fee. Miss Wortham stresses that children with learning difficulties can be helped with remedial work. Certainly there are a number of children who can be helped quite easily, depending on the density of their problem. The older the child is the harder it is for him to overcome his difficulty, but there are courses and there are techniques available which definitely do help children to overcome their problems with reading and with spelling and with language as a whole. I've been particularly interested in the clumsy child, who has co-ordination, rhythm and timing difficulties, and I have written a booklet which is now available for parents and for teachers who are interested, for the age range five years to eleven years, which gives parents exercises to carry out with their children to encourage the child in overcoming difficulties with co-ordination, rhythm, timing, and to help them with speaking, writing and reading remediation. What sort of remedial techniques can parents use? Mrs Durrant describes her own method. When I started I had to right back to the very beginning and start from three letter words. We did a great deal of work with music and in listening to sounds and in rhythms, and then a lot of work in which I actually read to him and he followed all the time what I was reading, so that he would try to link the sounds and the words together. And then we've gradually worked on building up the spelling. We've worked on building up handwriting. Fortunately I was myself very interested in handwriting and had taught it. It has entailed a great deal of study on my part. In fact I've scarcely been to bed before one o'clock any night since I first realized he was dyslexic. Remediation works best, though, when parents and teachers co-operate, as Polytechnic Lecturer, Rod Smart, reports. I'm quite sure that the way forward for teachers and parents is within some kind of co-operative framework, and the only way that can work effectively is for each to be aware of other's needs and difficulties, and the kind of barriers that have existed in the past for parents to get into schools I think are being lowered by the schools, but it takes almost a generation, I think, for parents to stop being frightened about what school is doing and the kind of parents who've had bad experiences themselves in schools, I think, have enormous difficulties in approaching teachers and I'm sure the answer is in terms of co-operative activity — children and schools, schools and parents, and all of them together with myriad of outside agencies that are available for children with severe problems. Local parents may also band together in support groups. Mary Nash-Wortham and Mrs Durrant agree that these are most important. I think if parents are concerned and feel that their child is brighter than his performance shows, then it is time they took some action. The path is not easy for them, because they will be blocked by suggestions from the school that their child is a late developer, he's lazy, or that he doesn't like working, but this should not deter them. They must take action and they must feel free to contact us, feel free to put their point of view across to the headmaster and to ask for a psychologist's report. And they must join with other parents who've got a similar difficulty, so that we can fight this very wide cause. I think there should be a centre where the parents of dyslexic children could get together. It's so difficult and frustrating for parents and one feels so isolated, and one needs to discuss these problems with other parents and the parents working together, of course, could do so much in erm getting units started and getting people to understand this problem. There's so many erm handicaps that children have that people can see. They're obvious. But this can't be seen — it isn't obvious — a child can become the subject of ridicule and for a sensitive and intelligent child this can be sheer hell. Many thanks to Audrey Durrant, Mary Nash-Wortham and Rod Smart. Again the local numbers to contact for information about learning difficulties are — Mary Nash-Wortham at Easbourne oh four seven six two, and Dave Pollock at Brighton six nine four three seven nine. Next week on Ideas in Action we'll discuss the emotional problems associated with learning difficulties. Until then, goodbye. Hello. When we started building the university twenty years ago we encountered a very unusual problem. This arose because although the site was nearly ideal for our purposes, right in the middle there stood a small cottage in which lived a retired shepherd, Amos Chatfield. Because his rights as a tenant were protected and because in any case the university didn't wish to be seen turfing out an elderly man whose family had lived in the same cottage for five generations, we left him in peace and build around him, as it were, expecting him perhaps to move elsewhere or maybe to pass away. But now, twenty five years later, Amos is still in our midst. Instead of finding students impossible to put up with, he appears to enjoy their company and they in turn appreciate him. He must now, by my reckoning, be nearly a hundred years old, but in no way does his enthusiasm for life appear diminished. Although publicity shy, he recently and rather reluctantly agreed to be interviewed in his cottage. And here I apologise for the rather poor sound quality, but he refused to shut his parrot and dogs in another room during the interview. Hello Mr. Chatfield, can I come in? Oh yes Mr Smith, the dogs won't hurt you, honest, they won't hurt you. Come in and I'll make a cup of tea. Thank you very much. Well let's have a cup of tea in a minute. There are just a few questions I'd like to ask you. Oh, don't worry about Corky the parrot. All right. How long have you actually lived in this cottage Mr Chatfield? Well I've been here, it must be thirty five years. And how old are you really. Well I've been I really don't know. I wasn't born really because I didn't have a birth certificate or anything so I don't know how old I am. Well you must be getting on for a hundred, because I believe you were in the Boar War, weren't you? Yes, that's right, Mr Smith, I was out there, oh I don't know how long it was. I got wounded, you know. I was a Corporal and I got wounded and erm it makes me cough. Oh, sorry about that. Mr Chatfield, you've been here for, well, as you say, thirty five years — what was it like in the old days before the university was put here? Well as you know I was a shepherd and I used to look after the Chichester Estate and we used to have a lot of erm lot of erm sheep in those days. I find it very difficult to breathe, but it was quite good in those days because they used to pay me well and I used to get up very early in the morning and go round with my dogs and that. Well you do get on very well with the students and they are very fond of you. What do you attribute this to? Well they keep complaining about the refectory food so they come over here and have mutton stew with me from time to time, and they I quite like their company. They bring me dogs bones for the dogs and they like talking to my parrot I wish I could get rid of the bleeding thing though. Well how long have you actually had the parrot. I mean life wouldn't be the same without you, of course, and without you parrot. Well the parrot he sort of came in the Boar War he did he sort of flitted on my shoulder and I've been lumbered with him ever since and nobody seems to want him. Well he is a rather unusual parrot, but not a very well behaved one . No, he's not, he cane be quite rude, can't he ? Yes, well, I think we'd better leave his ruder sayings off the air at the moment. But you're obviously very interested in animals. Now you've got what, nine or ten dogs? Well it's eleven actually Mr Smith. I used to have three but I lost three sheep down when they built the university, and I haven't been able to find them, so I thought that they'd be useful to try and locate them, you know. It's very difficult, I had to pay for the sheep when the Chichester was here. How do you manage to look after eleven dogs? We know that they are sheep dogs and very active, I mean what do they do for exercise? You're joking — active?— look at them, they're all asleep. There's only one awake and he can't do very much, and I just don't know what to do with them. They don't move for me any more and I can't whistle either. Well there are rumours that the dogs sometimes attack the students, or chase them. Is that true? Oh they don't attack them, they're only playing with them. They come out of lectures and then they round them up and put them in a small group, you know. It's quite funny to see them all in this group worried about these dogs. And what do you actually attribute your long life to? Oh that's a difficult one. I suppose erm modern living. As you can see, I've got gaslight and that's quite modern isn't it and what's this we're on — radio? What's radio? Well if you you surely have heard of radio? No, not at all. I mean nobody tells me anything round here. The students come in, but I don't know what else is around. Well I'll explain what radio is afterwards. It would take to long to do it justice. Well, you know, I mean I'd like to know. What's this thing stuck up my nose? That's called a microphone. A microphone? Yes What the hell's a microphone? Well I'll tell you afterwards. Well I don't know what it is. Okay here isn't it. Well anyway Mr Chatfield, thank you very much for allowing me to ask Well don't you want to ask me any more questions? No, I think I've asked you quite enough, and thank you very much for talking to me. Well, you know, I mean I'd like to know if I've answered them right, you know. You've answered them absolutely right and thank you very much. Would you be quiet just for a minute. Well, you know, it's great to have visitors like you Mr Smith. Yes, thank you Mr Chatfield. That's all that we have time for today. Next week we shall be Do you want a cup of tea yet? Just a minute. Next week we shall be back in presenting our current series on disasters in our Ideas in Action programmes. Until next week then, goodbye. Do you do this every week Mr Smith? Yes we do. Goodbye. Well I must have to try and buy a radio I think. I'm sorry that I was unable to get, well two things went wrong first of all the date of the exhibition's changed Gaugin and his friends in Brittany, due to circumstances beyond our control. But in this programme you'll appreciate this planned months, its planned, when did I first contact you?, oh February wasn't it, right, so we thought we'd have pictures here and Sue would be talking in front of the pictures. I didn't know at that time what the content of the exhibition was because Sarah who organised it all had to write to lots of people and arrange the loans and you know it is fairly recently that we discovered for example the tate would lend, their pictures because its very rare that they do, erm, and, so we thought the next best thing, when I discovered the change of dates would be to have slides of the pictures that Sue was using, but erm oh dear then wonderful that Sue was using a another book and this term allocated and I wasn't able to get the slides she picked, it was my fault that they're not on slide due to the amount of time that we had to do this. Therefore I'm afraid were going to have to pass Sue's book around , we'll leave the lights on and erm she's changed the scripture of her talks so that she will be describing the picture why'll its been passed round and could you please sort of pass it fairly quickly, I'll be at the back and then I'll come down into the front again, is there anyone who's a poet? I know I enter the poem when there is one not every picture has its some of these kinds telling you about how they write a poem, if I was going to Right but erm, we'll, we'll spend start the whole questions again when we get to the next one and we do have, some of this slides which, I'll show at the very end, alright, but it means it er, erm, the first part of the talk we'll keep the lights on and then could I ask you, you know to look and then pass it around like school nobody looks back and I rush oh yeah right I'm pleased pleased to introduce to us, er, er against all these difficulties and the nearer you are at the front the better, there's all stuff here look I'm sitting at the back anybody at the back would like to move nearer then sit here yes, ok, is that alright? Well I think I'll start off by telling you a little bit about myself erm, I'm a writer and I live in Durham, my work is here and I've also work abroad, if anybody can't hear me please say No you can't hear me, right, ok, I'll try and speak up a little bit louder, erm my work, I work erm here and I work abroad and I live in Durham, er I'm a writer and erm one of the things that I'm most interested in is using art as an inspiration for my work as a, as a writer and I'd like to be able to show you by this talk, how I do that, erm, I have a few publications, my work's performed by a local group actually based in Newcastle and I'm a member of er a group called Another Story and my work's been put to music by a composer and er a play and the play and sing that, that the pieces of erm another area of my work is as I er writing workshops, the writing workshops are very different from the normal writing workshops there based at galleries and they take groups of people round an exhibition recording their comments on either one particular picture or the exhibition as a whole and then with my help we put the comments into poems that are then displayed along side the exhibits, erm this work I do with erm all sorts of people with children people with special needs, disabled people and, and that's really where my interest in art erm comes in and I find that its a great leveller for people who would like to express themselves and have perhaps have difficulty by aiding, by looking at paintings and being able to see perhaps emotions or images that they, they feel themselves, so in all areas erm I find painting in my areas of work, painting influences me and has done for as, as long as I can remember. Sometimes erm given me the questions and sometimes answering the questions for me, its always informing me and over the last few years I've erm, I said that to try and understand erm, how to use this information in my own work as, as a writer, and I see, I see parallels in all forms of art, communication is of course one, erm and the need to recognise and respond the plight of others is, is another area and the area that as a writer I'm particularly drawn too. Physically and erm emotionally writing can be very isolating and so, for example a few years ago, I was writing a huge piece on Africa about Africa and I found emotions growing that I actually didn't have names for, erm and it made it impossible to finish the piece I was working on, and then I, I went to see an Afro Asian exhibition of art and I saw portraying some of these paintings the same emotions and it, it didn't give me a name for the emotions but it, it made me feel an awful lot less isolated seeing that erm other people have also, have also felt this. So I was going to rummage through these slides and we don't have them, erm so I'll have to, I'll hand the, the, the book around in just one minute, erm the poems that I'm going to read to you, very few of them are actually complete, most of them are sketches erm ideas and images of erm, that I've got, I've, I've got them from the paintings. Sometimes when I, I write a poem I want to create a particular mood erm giving the piece erm a shape, a, a definite shape or just a shadowy shape erm and the overcoat in er Bon Jour Monsieur Gaugin, I found very, very expressive and the starting point for, for this particular poem I'll hand this round to you know, with the name of the, the front, right I don't, has anybody, if you already know this picture, does anybody actually know it already?, no I start with the overcoat obviously erm very expressive, not just because it was, people wear over , overcoats in cold days, but it was the size of the coat and the shape of it and, and it gave me a weight, I felt, er I felt a very definite mood erm about this picture because of the coat and it was a, er a ejective mood that I, that I felt from that, and the stick in the erm hands of the women over the bridge gave me the sound for, for this poem would you like me to read as the, the thing being passed around, would that be ok? Yes ok, this poem's called erm A Pause In A Moment Worn out days dressed in damp wheat, heavy coat pulling at tired shoulders, memory pushed back, brought forward in the click of a stick, pause in a moment, sunset reflected in eyes offering the warmth of recognition , so that poem started with the overcoat and that was the mood as I say, that was the mood of rejection erm and there was something about the way the old girl was looking at the women on the bridge, almost as if there was this recognition and, as it brought back memories that perhaps went or as black as the overcoat, erm the next er painting which I'm going to read to you about is erm have you its the Four Brettan Girls and does it, do any of you know, I'm sure most of you, some of you have heard that erm when I was looking at this, this picture of the, of the Brettan Girls, I erm, I was really particularly struck by the bo , the mild head of one of the dancers and the fact that she was rubbing her, her heal, erm and it gave me a voice for, for this poem, I was also drawn by the dismissal, there's a goose in the painting, there's four, four geese and one of them is dismissing the, the, the winner outright and erm I found his look very, very interesting and, and I couldn't help but compare the lies of these four dancers with those within erm from the later period as the eye that, that, that Gaugin painted later on. This, this poem's called Dancing Feet Time found hidden in a hard day, dry earth becomes a dance floor, audience of three fowl, the fourth along with a reaper turns it back, wooden shoes meant for mud, rug on dancing feet erm and, if you, if you take, were oops trying to pay particular attention to, if you can see the geese in, in this one here, there's a fate, there's a, there's a forfeit which is missing, what's going on and er, and the reason well in fact er which, which was er very much a vocal point for me in, in that painting I think its got to be better if I hold it different. It is, but then you won't be able to compare the, the details against the Well could you, we pass it round twice? Yes, yes, you could pass it round twice, that's ok with everybody Yes Erm, how shall we do that?, as its going, read it again now? Yes Ok,Time found hidden in a hard day, dry earth becomes a dance floor, audience of three fowl, the fourth along with a reaper turns it back, wooden shoes meant for mud, rug on dancing feet Erm the next one is the still life on, on with three puppies, while I was looking at Gaugin's work I couldn't help but notice he's constantly struck by the fact that he use set of three symbols through out his work it seems, and very, very often three caricatures erm or lines of three or three objects and I found this very interesting, more point of view that something that I, I wanted to incorporate in my own work, but I wanted to find a line or a phrase to use in the same way, erm, all of my work starts as one or a series of visual images and, and I then turn them into characters, repeating a word or repeating a line would be a way of erm emphasising characterise erm and the puppies that are in this painting erm, they delighted my children so much, I don't know if any of you know, do you know the painting of the three puppies its going to come round at you in a minute, so I'll talk about it until it gets to you, erm, it delighted my children this particular painting, erm and I decided to put my sort of analytical approach to one side erm and do something with that later, so this poem is from my, my children's point of view and one of the things that are very interested, they were really worried, that, erm, I think it marks the height of the table and the fact that the puppies might fall off and do themselves some harm, that, I'll read it while its going round and then I can see then, that, so this is, ok, from my children's point of view this poem, its called Threes,Table laid and waiting, milk place in bowl not to high, they lap and swirl, played and roll, paws distance from knocking and breaking goblet, made from clay . There's something else the children were convinced that the goblets weren't actually clay, the goblets that were on the erm, the table as opposed to would you like me to read that poem again?, would that be helpful?, right, we were with the, of the erm, the picture, Threes,Table laid and waiting, milk place in bowl not to high, they lap and swirl, played and roll, paws distance from knocking and breaking goblet, made from clay . The next one is erm Van Gogh's sun flowers, that's it, that one, its erm, well its Gaugin, Van Gogh's sun flowers ok, I'll talk as its going round again, if that's alright with is that alright? Erm, putting images into words is not always easy, a colour in a painting can give you a way in and the brown of Van Gogh's jacket erm affected me with this one particularly and the sun flower I felt was inappropriate misplace, in a vase to, to small, erm and it gave me an image a very strong image of suffering and this poem is in its very early stages and its literally just a list of images and I wanted to be able to show you how I start off which is with a series of images and then I have to put some filler in and open them up a bit and, and make them more accessible and understandable, but this is just a list form. Sun flower limping, water less vase, suffering eyes, desperados in caged , so from, from that painting I had a tremendous feel of something undergoing tremendous suffering and seem very desperate about the situation, and I didn't just see that in, in the picture of Van Gogh, but I could see that in the sun flower, so as, as a writer its images like that, that I would look for and open up and turn into characters or a way of portraying a particular mood, erm, the next one , were doing very well Its exhausting. I suppose this is erm, a caricature, a self portrait this little, I, in fact I was, really actually hilarious as I felt that, I, I, don't actually know an awful lot about Gaugin, but if, if I knew nothing about him at all, I would of thought he was having a bit of joke of himself with this, but er, being the person that he was I can't image that he had that quality, that, I don't believe he would be laughing at himself, erm, erm, the symbolism erm and conflict of this painting its dazzles me more than, than the colour or at least as much as the colours in it, but there's a, there's a half eaten, well it isn't half eaten, but there's half an apple at the top and, and that was the, the way into me finally, for, for writing about this, this again is a shopping list, I call it a shopping list, this is just visual images that, that will be opened out at some point and turn it into something, and my images were erm Shoulders of the matador smoking snakes, dare to bit an apple, see one half gone and still I wear a halo intact , that I'm sure I've completely wrong about him as a, a person, but as the painting that's obviously something else, erm, I found that one of the things that were he's, I, I think probably that everybody who writes is that you'll come to a point when you can't write, you stop writing, you haven't got anything you want to write about, or your frightened of writing, and I devise exercises so that , that doesn't happened to me, I think writing is like any skill you have to keep doing it to be able to do it, its, you, some of it is a game and the rest of it is hard work, and one of the exercises I, I delighted using erm a portrait of a woman erm, its about erm the er still life, its the back one, yes this one here, I have, I, I hope to use this as a writing exercise I found the, the maths in this and the colour of the piece of fruit in the background, very interesting because most of the colours to me seem a, a lot less vibrant then many of his other paintings, and so they, they attracted me and have a, a strong sense of erm, er a hidden desire in that and so it, to use it as a writing exercise which I intend doing, it will be able about a situation of character's with erm something that's hidden, some desire, I don't, the, not even spoke about to themselves or, or generally, erm I like to sort of say that came from those two little, just this amounts of colour which seemed to be saying such a lot anything I do if, erm while this is going round you have any questions, now would be, now would be a good time to ask them if you have any, there will be time at the end to talk, you can do Have you check to see if your well erm, sort of in that erm, I was asked to come and do this talk, and so I, I organise to make sure that I had access to some of Gaugin's work and then to write poems about it, erm, so, erm, only in as much as that it was a waiting to hear this talk, but a lot of my work is through commissions and so I find myself writing about things that I perhaps don't have any interest in particularly, erm, or I find actually in a waiting, asked to write about anything is quite er exciting and actually using my skill I think it should be, as a writer I should really be able to write about everything. One of the things I was asked to write about this week I think was a radio, to, to write about er what I felt about radios, you know, er, erm, so anything could be thrown at you, and obviously I have my areas that I particularly interested in and I think sometimes I get a bit complacement and I'm writing about a, I find particularly interested in and a bit lazy, so its quite good to be stretched. Erm, the next one, we'll shall go erm, go to market will do, yes that's right, no No you've got the wrong one , I was gonna say this is definitely not going to market Yes, no, she's not going to market This one, are you sure your not going to market This one, I, I, this is one of my favourites, I love this painting. The movement of this reminds me of er stage set and the figures on the bench could almost be actors and actresses and with the figure at the bottom here, the male at the bottom, well its not quite at bottom, tucked away at the side there, he, he, he looks like erm, like a harlequin figure, maybe a mischief maker, er I, I felt there was a lot of fun in this painting and a lot of erm, er gravado and, and stage specs, that kind of thing, so this poem is called for obvious reasons People Of The Nile, and I'll read it twice, probably be the best way Ancient people drawn on a vase, tell a tale, warn a friend, man dressed in red holds back a curtain, over hears and tells, they are gossiping people, playing Chinese whispers , so I, I, I quite wanted to give that er a, a contemporary updated feel, erm, I read that again for the people who may of just seen the picture at the back People Of The Nile,Ancient people drawn on a vase, tell a tale, warn a friend, man dressed in red holds back a curtain, over hears and tells, they are gossiping people, playing chinese whispers , erm, the next one , we'll have to put you on wheels I think Your this is erm, this is a bit like I went to an auction at erm Chesteny Street, and all the exhibits were brought out by hand, by, by the erm keeps watch, I'm sure this is a, this side of I in fact I've just been shown a different copy of this, Gwen has just shown me a different copy and the colour's is totally different, its a very, very poor erm print and, when I was looking at this through my book, the background was very strange and I felt that almost had been painted by a totally different artist, but having seen Gwin's, er Gwen's is much more of a go down in colour, erm so I think probably if I'd seen her, er prints I maybe I would of approached this erm differently, erm it gave me a very immense voice about crowds, erm, very, very different from the front of the picture apart from the alarm registered in the eyes of the, of the old woman erm, this is called Even Paradise Has Its End, sorry Even Paradise Has Its Price, sorry Ours in the night laying between sleep and arousal held in balance, fragile as dust on a scale, night spirit's sit easy, in no hurry, even paradise has its price , would you like me to read that one again? Yes. As I say all these poem's are very dense and erm if I get round to, to completing them they'll probably have at least another verse, certainly extra words and rhymes, that open it out and make it a bit more plausible Ours in the night , no I've got it wrong, sorry, I've moved on and I shouldn't've done That's it This is right,Ours in the night laying between sleep and arousal held in balance, fragile as dust on a scale, night spirits sit easy, in no hurry, even paradise has its price . The next one is not working, this one here erm the light framed split here erm falling on the ground is the curse of the, of the male's aunt People and animals portray in this, in the Tahiti painting, never seemed to be in a hurry, erm, even when always relaxed even when working and I wondered how much of this was cultural and erm, how much was due to the large amounts of erm drugs consumed in most paintings at this, this period but that I suppose I'll, I'll never know for sure about, erm with this painting I found in the background, er there's a figure, that's looking in on the situation and I, I for myself think's its probably Gaugin, as he portrays himself as Christ, which I think he did quite a lot to me in, in, in a few of his paintings and so this painting gave me tremendous sense of being looked in on and this figure in the background, was the person that was doing the looking in. This is called It Was Good In the afternoon when the sun half close his eyes, ants can be found not working, dogs in their cool places, vandal wall slice through heat, hold and let go of light in rays, in the afternoon when smoke curls like the back of a cat, people lean and braid hair, someone dressed like Christ looked in and said it was good . Would you like that one again ,In the afternoon when the sun half close his eyes, ants can be found not working, dogs in their cool places, vandal wall slice through heat, hold and let go of light in rays, in the afternoon when smoke curls like the back of a cat, people lean and braid hair, someone dressed like Christ looked in and said it was good now we have the dug out how food is presented erm can say so much, at least it does to me and, so that, so that the beginning of this poem became from er the food, piece of food held in the hand of the mayor in this picture. Paintings erm have the power to take you back in time, I can look at a painting and remember something that's happened yesterday or years and years ago and as a small child, looking at this painting I remembered as a small child seeing for the first time erm the sea dipping into er, sorry the sun dipping into, into the sea and being horrified I was convinced that the heat of the sun would boil the oceans and the world dry and it reminded me for an awful lot of my childhood and I'm sure if I'd seen this painting years ago it would of persuaded me otherwise, erm this is called In A Days Work Satisfaction in a days work, chosen not given, eating the laxed food, face turned to steer a sun, making cloth into a gown and giving colour to the side of a boat What is it called again? In A Days Work,Satisfaction in a days work, chosen not given, eating the laxed food, face turned to steer a sun, making cloth into a gown and giving colour to the side of a boat erm we know come to a here comes the last er picture in my, in my talk this is erm, this is going to be exhibited here on the twenty third of July, ok, erm, two, two of Gaugin's pictures, this is one of them, and several other artists er of the same period, and I think this is going to be the only venue in, in England, I don't think there coming, sort of worth seeing, but unfortunately I shall miss it cos I'm, I won't be here, erm this is a poster of I find this very difficult to erm, to relate, to relate hard work to the women portraying in, in this, we've got the postcard of that one, erm it must of been hard work and very tedious, but I think every now and then the moment breaks away and shines through at the back, and I think people like, like Gaugin erm captures those moments and then releases them on the canvass, and I hope that erm by, I hope I've been able to show you how I use art as a voice erm and a friend as my own work, even though we've maybe had to do such a sort of hand fist way, hand fisted way, erm, but, I, I've recently started to re-visit old favourite of paintings and I found that the story they tell sometimes has changed dramatically, maybe sometimes when your very little that, that, you know, sometimes dramatically as well, erm, but I, mostly, most importantly its, its still, I still find them, all of them compelling and challenging and, and something to stride for in my own work, erm, er only time will tell so I'll finish with the, the last poem which is erm comes from the postcard what's going round which is harvest, its called Patterns In The Grass,Wheat cut and falls, making lion head patterns in the grass, sickle shaped women bend and bow as a naive dressed as a dog steals the evening meal . I'll read that again Wheat cut and falls, making lion head patterns in the grass, sickle shaped women bend and bow as a naive dressed as a dog steals the evening meal . thank you very much for being so its been very difficult for everybody and I do hope you've managed to, you get something out of, out of this talk, if you have any questions I'll be very happy to, try and answer them. I'd also like to er I attend, I've got a performance tomorrow night in Durham so if any of you want to come to that it would be very nice to see you , erm, if there are any questions please feel free to ask. Have you done many No I, its not my speciality, I have tried and I, I really can't, I can't cope with the discipline of it at all, it, it er ruins the activity that I have, I know some people, one, one woman I was on the course with, it wasn't you was it Phillip?, it was somebody, was it you who worked, no somebody else that er we were doing a course with who had a tremendous skill with high and said so much into the there's some woman I admire, but I can't think what her Is seem to focus in or, or in art, and you go for art by visual means, rather than say a piece of music and subject. I don't know, do you write Erm, yes I do, both, my, my husband is a composer and a musician and erm just recently you, well I'll show you, basically that, we exchanged skills and erm I interpretations of his music erm, I, one of the things I would love to do and I'm hoping to do next year is to do something related to art using a dance and words, I think with three mix, mix well actually, mix it with its exciting, but that's one thing I really would like to work with I was asking you cos I'm always having arguments with the I, I, myself, I can see it as well Yes and I think its I was just wondering what you very much the same its, the page is so important, yeah, very important and this is what I think myself, but lots of people yes, yes that's right yes, yes but I mean it depends also I suppose erm, when your aiming for is the market, and I, I, I would like to have my work published but I also like to perform it and its got to be attractive to be looked at, in the first instance in, on a page its not known, er, there is, there is a lot of debate at the moment about using erm pages for poetry and some poets have actually starting using, writing from the wrong side and, and, and, and writing in the shape of a poem, for instance, if, what poem I was thinking off was a, was a waterfall so it was cascading the words cascading, you almost have to pick,ha ,ha , have a choice of, of words that you want to fit into a particular thing, erm I think that's had its place, but I think it can be a bit off putting as well, yeah, but it exciting, yeah definitely. Do you try any other Oh yes varied, and there interesting, with, with children, particularly if they erm if I'm doing workshops er with art and writing workshops and we come across an abstract picture, the children music, and,we , as a way into their vocabulary which isn't as large as their, their writing skills, and there'll, there'll decipher an abstract picture, wonderful language and I like doing that you know I'm thinking the abstract art Yes, yes express yes, oh yes, and erm, going back to somebody asked me earlier, erm, about how it, I feel I have to be able to write about, just about anything, erm, and so if I was given commission to write about any one thing I would have to put myself in a position to, to be able to do it. I think this idea of, of writers shutting themselves away and writing has gone, you know, very that is a luxury I think erm to be able to do it, if you want to write and earn money, which I do as well as, as socialize while I'm working erm you've got to find ways of, of, of doing that and erm just writing books and poetry just wouldn't, I, I, I couldn't survive on that, I really do have to find other ways of, of earning money which is enjoying more and also uses of my skill and erm I would think you'd need to be in contact with the situation rather than you not knowing, being able to write about that. Do you say whether you, identify the picture only on Erm, that was very er, er, I mean that, yes then they confront both of the the visual image and the written words I'm sorry what Do you identify the artist, do you Oh I see, yes, yes, I, huh, yes I would do, I, I, I would say in quite definitely that these words are inspired by such a such artist and, make it quite clear that I'm a writer and not a, I, I, I don't study art or I just don't understand science and painting and, and its my responses to that, yes. Just seems that it, it to me must be wrong, that it didn't identify them because a particular picture anyway, the reason why I find difficulty in making Absolutely, yes way for them the, this, this is just one aspect of, of my writing and I write about all sorts of things and erm, erm the shows that I do, we use two artists that's erm, I, I've written erm two, two poems about erm, er Darren and, and erm Stanley er you you've heard and erm, and I have assumed wrongly that most people will know the work of their and luckily that the, the song that we did was funny and so people enjoyed it, but they didn't understand it and they didn't have a visual image of the artist's work, so I now have to take erm a couple of pictures, er prints with me if ever were going to read it and we sing those songs but not everybody does, and then they do become excessible you know, they can see, you know, that erm, yes erm if it, if I was going to publish a book of poem I, it would have to be stated that this related to this picture and presumably it'd have to be, it would be with it, with it if anybody would be interested in doing. Does when you've finished the poem you read it out? Yes That's right, yes . That's right, yes it should, erm, these, these aren't completed, but even so the ones that we, we, I have done that too I've opened out, having performed them, you still need to have a little bit of an idea That's right of the artist yeah but as a, as a piece of work in it, yes that's right yes and I hope we, we did achieve that Yes erm because they enjoyed the, there are a few funny lines in it you know and they enjoy the, the visual amatory of these people performing it, but to themselves to actually understand it they need to know which artist it was, yeah and you know yeah, that's right yes. Do you think colours with emotions are Oh very much so, yes new devotion, size, erm, it, it in one or two of these erm they gave me a definite feel and to a, to a, it new I was trying to write I think Von Gogh was well yes absolutely yeah, and, and shapes I feel as well, you, you, particularly erm, and one of things that I did find in Gaugin's painting of Von Gogh was that erm, er, erm, depression really, I, I could see it there and the des desolation very much as if he was looking in on somebody who was in that position er, although at the time I don't thing Gaugin and, er Von Gogh himself knew it No I, I don't, I'm not an expert for poet, I, I, I feel about it, perhaps didn't Did you hope to show the slides that you've got?, I mean is Yes, would you like to see, there's about three . You need the lights off? Where's the light switch?, erm Do you not fear that if you, if there is and another, especially if your contracted with powerful paintings, that the approach you make suffer as the result of the artist's vision, or I think that we can and see each other and also my interpretation yes would be different from the reputation of, of the as I was holding on a particular images and create and then become those energy right rather than doing it direct, erm conscription of the painting right its my responses to it, that would be a very different approach, because of familiar with a, I mean with the postcard that was past around, familiar with that picture then looked at it one, I feel that about it. When your reading I closed my eyes and I got a different feeling Yes from your and I can visualise, something totally different But is that what it should be? Yes, that's what, yes that's what I hoped for because I, I feel everybody's interpretation yes is different, and you need an original yes and you maybe miss something, from this you have your own, that's right and its somebody else teaches you another angle then there's possibility for ex ,ex , expanding possibility yes which I find exciting, but, but interesting in it. You seemed to take it with your poems Yeah, I, I do and I think I went down to most people to say they can't, but when you point out something to them, they say yes I can see that, look there's this as well and I think culturally er were led to believe if you don't succeed in it, erm but in actual fact I think that you all do, but perhaps I think the books do, either assess it and give it value or, or still allow it to happen Mm, somebody I feel it did, I strongly feel it, feel that, but I'm also sure that its an awful lot easier than, than most people think , but its not going to work for us is it? Its a shame we didn't have the slides, I think we'd see more Have you got the If you'd like to hold a torch for me I can its erm, I think Sue Yes, ok I'll just, I can, I can do it winding up So this is called A Pause In A Moment Worn out days, dressed in damp weeds, petticoat cling and tired shoulders, memory pushed back, brought forward in the click of the stick, pause in a moment, sunset reflected in eyes offering the warmth or recognition Threes Table laid and waiting, milk place in bowl not to high, they lap and swirl, played and roll, paws distance from knocking and breaking goblets, made from clay . Can I just point out that something here, erm, was, I think I mentioned about my children it was the height of the table and its just so little that, that they indicate their in height in this picture, but it is there and, erm, that, I found that really very exciting and as I say the, The Threes, it, the three goblets, the three apples the three puppies, so often I've, I've found that there is three sets of, three objects and in I haven't actually got a, a poem for this, I was saying to you that I would use this, I intend using this as a writing exercise, because the, the colour of her mouth and the colour of the piece of boot in the background, just stands out to me, it says, its about to me hidden desire of some sort, either the artist's or hers or mine I don't know So, none of those pictures would be in the exhibition that you have? No. But this is our picture which This is erm, yes I don't have a, I don't have I have got a poem for this, which we were, its been to Pam now that would be interesting Thank you very much you fascinate, battling against others. Thank you very much. I've come of a new please. Let's have a look. This is the Noraday yeah . Noraday yeah. Everything okay on that? Yeah, fine yeah . Periods behaving? Erm sometimes I have a a good period, like Yeah. I used to on er Yeah. other pill. yeah that's right. But sometimes I don't have one or Yeah. sometimes it's just one Yeah. day. Yeah, a bit erratic ? Er Yeah. But Right, okay. no problem at all. Yes , that can happen on Noraday Waterworks? Bowels? Breasts? Yeah fine. All behaving? Yes. Right, now what we do need to do today is to get your blood pressure checked. Yeah. How are things going on from the other point of view? Erm it get's Mm. a bit off still . Yes. Yeah. we h we still haven't heard anything. From the psychologist? Er no,go to see him . you've you've got from them, certainly. Yeah. Yeah. But you're still in limbo as far as the Yeah. the civil action is concerned? Erm even no second inquest, nothing . Oh. But er apparently got a solicitor. Er we haven't had to see anybody about that and he sent us a letter saying that he'd like to see us and we went and he says it there might not be a second inquest. Oh. Might go straight to court. Ah. And then we had a phone call from the police, about a month ago. Oh right, good. Saying that it had gone straight to court, it was in court, you know, Oh right. but we haven't heard anything. Oh well I mean they may have been adjourned or a Even though it may have been referred to a higher court. You think so. Erm I mean we we haven't heard anything directly, I'm only glad that the police are actually telling you something. Yeah yeah. It it was a big shock that day, when we had that phone call Mm. But it was I You know, to know that you haven't got to fight, That's right, yeah . T to take him to court. Erm But it's a long process. I mean we have dealings with solicitors for all sorts of things, asking for reports and we send a lot of notes away to have a lot of er medical opinion reports and they take ages to come back. And that's a These are the preliminary things that the solicitor must go through before they get near court, so Yeah. the people Yeah. who it's actually They're actually dealing with are waiting months and months and months and er Yeah. it looks like that in your case. We we may well have to provide the medical report on your behalf, yet. God. But n no-one has approached me to do so. No no. So er But it wouldn't surprise me if some sort of medical report on how you are doesn't reach court. It erm Mr who we see Psychologist erm The first week I went to see him, Oh . It t d certainly, you know erm Yeah. It's very Erm hard. We Do you know when we start doing something, we'll do it and even if we do things different gonna say? We thinking well why are we doing it this way ? Mm. So er everything's pulling at us, Yeah. you know. W we seem as though we do something and we W we are absolutely drained , Mm. you get We want to push ourselves. That's right. But do you know, once we start doing something w we're just drained all the while. In some ways you're in limbo cos you've you've got nothing to aim towards. You've No. got I mean if Even if you had a date to aim towards, even if it was six months hence, at least that would help you, you could Yeah. aim towards it and work towards it. Yeah. But er and I think it's most unfair on you two really and the whole thing. And you you come off worse than anyone else and er but there's no real way of speeding that up, they can't give No. dates and they can't say what's going to happens they have to go through, sift the evidence, arrange it all in a certain order, and then go and Rachael, she's coming home Well she was she was discharged Friday from hospital . Mm. Oh right. And er they thought Thursday they'd have to do an operation on her by taking a piece of bone from her hip, Mhm. and putting it in the leg. But they said it was knitting together lovely. Good good. But then they took the pins out, Ah. let her go home Friday, discharged her the day after. She'd put too much weight on it, and she's back in hospital, she's broke it. Well they'll probably have to put at least the bone in there, it's a bone graft. They've put it in plaster at the moment . Yeah, But s you know she she's mending, it's erm She she's coming okay, I think Mm. You know to see her as well, that's som you know Mm. But we don't go as often now. No. Erm, Right. Lovely, and Th The six packets of Noraday Yeah, yeah. Your smear is due in December. Now I'm going to leave that with you. If you really don't feel like coming up for a smear at that time, that's fine and we'll understand why. And w There's an awful lot Yeah. of pressure on you from an awful lot of other sources, so don't worry about it. And Yeah. But er you are actually officially due in December and obviously we'd like Is that me three years? Yeah. Yeah. We'd like Yeah. to get that done. Yeah. Don't seem like three years. Oh, no I'm sure. The psychologist of course will continue to see you. And if Yeah. you want to pop in and have a chat with me in between that's fine, but I'm not here next week. Yeah, yeah. So that's that. Er and I hope everything goes a smoothly as possible. If there are any medical reports to do, we'll get them done as soon as possible but you know,a is that's very much out of our hands, and Yeah. we can only wait on your solicitors, their solicitors, there's the police, the court, the entire system. You see we haven't notified any solicitor at all, it was No. just when we got back off holiday we'd got a letter from Well it's If the police are doing the prosecuting then you may Yeah. not have to bother Well it it Apparently there is a clause in Lee's insurance er that got the solicitor, Yeah. and he notified us Right. and he said he would b represent. But then he mentioned, when we wen to see him, he says we will deal with this but you must get somebody for civil Yeah. action. Yeah. And we asked him if he did civil action . Oh right , yeah. And he said yes he'd Mm. he would You know he hasn't g The records haven't got to be released then to No. anybody else. he he will be able to get them. But it's just hoping that everything goes right, but at least we haven't got to fight for prosecution. No no. That should go through, but er it's a question of when it's going to be though. Yeah, yeah. Do they usually take time like this? Yes. Yeah. Yes. Things from er data whenever can take ages and ages and ages to And you know doctors get sued every now and again, perish the thought, Oh Perish the thought but when y w you when you keep hearing reports in the medical journals about doctors being sued, and it can be several years after the event that the case comes to court. Now it won't be that long in your case, but it just goes to show how lengthy the whole thing can be . Yea yeah yeah. And it's er But it's so But much hurt, you know . That's right. but Pete he he still getting up very early, he doesn't sleep Mm. very good . Yeah. Yeah. I mean in some ways And I think he's more effected by it than you. And I Like erm Psychologist said erm there's a lot of anger there isn't there? Yeah. He says I'm still with denial, Yeah. and Pete knows it's happened. Mm. I erm If i try not to give way, it leaves so much up here Mm. I can keep thinking it's not happened. Yeah. That's right. But You know. But wor working through it all, it's very very painful. Yeah. And it's easier in the short term not to have In the long term you get more problems. Yea yeah. I I've found that. You know, like I say, I try to do some things different, and then that don't work sometimes cos I think well why am I doing 'em like that. Mm. I wouldn't be doing this if it hadn't happened. Do you do you Mhm. Do you now what I mean? So like you say it can cause that few more problems. But erm probably if we wasn't so much and Mm. I think he 'd be I think sometimes he's still being protective. Yeah. He's still being protective . Mm. That's right. And erm Dunno. The police i know, went to see Rachael, and they still can't understand why he didn't use an islander, you know? No. And it's just unbelievable. Mm. But everybody's allowed a mistake but when you've got a big articulated lorry , Bit of drastic mistake to make. You know if you You know I can't stop feeling as though that morning he used that lorry as a weapon. Mm. You know. Er I don't I think as it goes on y you do start and get that anger that anger so bad, but erm But I'll leave you to get on Doctor. And Good afternoon, and welcome to On The Record. Another seven people murdered in Northern Ireland, a dreadful end to a dreadful week, and yet on Friday there had been at least a little optimism in the air, John Major and Albert Reynolds getting together in Brussels for what were billed as substantive talks, where does all that go now? I'll be talking to John Hume, the leader of the S D L P, according to Mr Major his talks with Gerry Addams are at the end of the road. I'll also be talking to John MacGregor, about the privatization of British Rail, has he really given in to his rebels who want B R to be able to bid for the franchises, or is it all a clever conjuring trick? Have Labours's modernizers run into the buffers? I'll be talking to arch modernizer Harriet Harman, and John Cole takes a sideways look at the Chancellor's dilemma as he prepares his first budget. But first to Northern Ireland. It's difficult, impossible perhaps, for those of us who don't live their to fully understand the sheer horror of it. On a crude arithmetical basis if the same proportion of murders were carried out on the mainland of Britain in relation to the population we'd have had a thousand dead in the past eight days. Unthinkable, no government could allow it to continue and expect to survive. So what is happening to find a political solution? Well John Hume's meetings with Gerry Addams have been overshadowed by that meeting between the prime ministers of Great Britain and the Irish Republic, overshadowed and overtaken, according to Mr Major, I talked about that to John Hume a little earlier this morning, but I began by asking for his reaction to the latest murders. Well just another appalling slaughter of very innocent people, and it really is quite incredible that the people who carried out these terrible murders said they were doing so as retaliation for similar slaughter of people in the Shankhill Road last week. The people murdered last week were every bit as innocent as were the people in the Shankhill Road, and I would be certain that the families of the people in the Shankhill Road would be horrified that the murder of their loved ones would be used as an excuse as an excuse to do exactly the same to other innocent people. You'll have known that pub, of course. Oh aye, I know that pub well, it's just outside my constituency but it's in the district where it's in the North West, and we all know one another very well there. I haven't heard the names yet, of the people who have lost their lives but I'd be I would be certain that I would know some of them personally. Where do we go from here? Well of course I've been saying for some time now, for some time, and I want to underline that, and I hope the government are listening that we've had twenty thousand troops on our streets, we've twelve thousand armed policemen on our streets, we have the strictest security laws in Western Europe, and none of these things have solved our problem. The number of people who have died on our streets is equivalent to a hundred thousand people dying in the streets of Britain, if that were happening, then the House of Commons would be packed to the doors everyday, until they got it sorted out. If the Government keeps telling us in every statement they make that we're an integral part of the . I think I'm making my point, I have been saying for some time now that given the fact that all that security hasn't produced the results, the logic of that is dialogue, and when I see the opportunity as I saw it, of dialogue, direct dialogue with Mr Addams that could lead to a total cessation of this violence, I felt it was my duty to do so. That dialogue has lead me to the point of issuing a joint statement with Mr Addams. Now remember I am the leader of a party that has been in the front line against his violence for twenty years, and have been at many risks, as have been members of my party, but when I say that that dialogue is the best hope they've seen for peace for twenty years. And in tha in our statement we say, that we are talking about a process which involves both governments, all parties, and what we're talking about is agreement among the divided people to which all sections can give their loyalty. The least I would expect would be an immediate invitation from the Prime Minister, come and see me, because if it was happening on the streets of any city in Britain and the MP stood up and said what I've said I think he would be in Downing Street within the night. And you've not had that invitation? No. Are you awaiting for it? Well I would expect that the Prime Minister would, I think this nonsense that is behind all this is that because I am talking to Gerry Adams, they don't want to be seen to be talking to me because it looks this fingerprint argument Your hands are dirty . I'm talking about saving human life governments over the last twenty years, troops over the last twenty years, policemen over the last twenty years, laws over the last twenty years, and politicians, including myself, have all failed in all the efforts that we've made including condemnation of violence, everything, but I am now saying that this dialogue is the best hope I've seen or, surely I'm entitled to say to the Prime Minister, alright given that I have said that why don't you put me to the test? But have you not already briefed Mr Major, have you not already briefed Downing Street about those talks, and given that you have, what else is there, what else can you offer Mr Major, that you haven't already offered? Well, er, I think that both governments have said er in their, and both Prime Ministers, er and I'm glad they met, er that the That's Mr Reynolds, I assume . Yes that they are beginning a process involving both governments and er naturally er I welcome that very much, because I think the attention of both governments would have to be concentrated on this terrible problem, and of course if they take the trouble to read the statement that Mr Addams and I issued that's precisely what we said, that the two governments should begin a process involving all parties. So what else do you have to offer then? I think that both governments are aware of the proposals that emerged from th my dialogue with Mr Addams, and the process that has emerged, that I have said, and he has said is substantial progress towards lasting peace. I want the governments to act on it, and act quickly on it. But act on what, do you see, this is what we don't understand ? Sorry, I know you don't understand, and you're not going to understand on this program. Why not? Because er it's a that's that's just the way it has to be for the present, at the end of the But does the Government ? Sorry. At the end of the day the whole community has to know what this is all about, but let me stress, there is no threat in this process that is being proposed, to bring about a total cessation of violence, there is no threat to any section of our community, none what so ever. Does the Government, does Mr Major know precisely what went on in your talks with Mr Addams, and does Mr Major approve of what you had agreed, or discussed with Mr Adams? Well I have no evidence of any description of Mr Majors approval or disapproval But does he know? what he has said is that he, it's a matter for myself to talk to whoever I wish, and that he respects my judgement in these matters, er according to the joint statement issued Mr Reynolds briefed him on his discussions with me on that on that Right, he does know. well, I er it it I am only reading what er their joint statement said. And he has said Mr But I am available. But Mr Major has said quite clearly that that process that dialogue between you and Gerry Adams has run it's course. Yes, he has said that and I am saying, I am saying, as somebody who has been in the front line against this violence, and with due respect to Mr Major knows a little more about it than he does So Mr Majors wrong? I am saying Mr Major, as Prime Minister, if someone in my position is saying I believe, I believe, there is the best opportunity here for lasting peace, by which I mean a total cessation of violence, the least I expect is that you should listen to what I have to say. So he, Mr Major, is wrong when he says he believes that that dialogue, that process that you began with Gerry Adams has run its course do you Well believe that there is further that can go and that it should be exploited by Mr Major or Mr Reynolds, or by Mr Major? well, when I say that it's the best opportunity for peace I've seen in twenty years. If er Mr Major is not going to look at why I say that then I hope that he, I assume from that that he has a better hope of peace an an But he's looked at it hasn't he? I'm sorry, and I'm waiting to hear what it is. But he's looked at it, because you have told Albert Reynolds Well, what, why? Albert Reynolds has told the Prime Minister, Mr Major, Mr Major has taken on board, has has considered, presumably, what it is that you've done with Gerry Adams, and concluded that it can go no further. Well i I'm not aware of how far he has taken anything on board, what I would expect as a Member of Parliament and the House of Commons, and as the leader of a party in the House of Commons, I would expect that he would want to hear what I would have to say face to face, and tell me face to face what's wrong with what I have said. Given that he doesn't want to see you and your suspicion is that he doesn't want to see you because you have as it were the fingerprints of Gerry Adams on you now you're tainted because of your relationship with Gerry Adams, what do you now do? Do you have more meetings with Gerry Adams, do you try and to push it forward unilaterally? I am an elected representative of the people of Northern Ireland, three thousand three hundred of our people have been murdered, that's the equivalent of a hundred thousand people in Britain, it is the responsibility of every elected representative to do everything in their power, everything in their power, to stop that, The least responsibility that they have, the least they can do, is enter into dialogue directly with the people involved and I apologize to no-one for that, and if anybody is telling me that I'm tainted because I do that, you know, I don't know what sort of minds they've got, because I think it's our responsibility to do everything in our power to bring this violence to an end, and what's more, what I'm doing has massive support of ordinary people on both sections of our community because I have never in my twenty years experienced the nature of the support and the way that it's being expressed to me by people in the streets, by telephone, and in particular by You families of those who have lost loved ones, who don't want to see other families going through the suffering that they have gone through. You say that, but aren't isn't it th the case that the loyalists, the Protestants in Northern Ireland are terrified of any kind of deal that might involve Gerry Adams because that would be as far as they are concerned the ultimate sell out, and hence there is the danger of growing sectarian violence because of fear? Well in the first place, I have made clear throughout, and I have a record their of over twenty years that people can have a look at, but I made clear throughout, as has Mr Adams, that we are not engaged in secret deals, secret deals don't solve problems. What we have said we are involved in a process which must involve both governments and all parties, whose objective is agreement among our divided people an agreement which all our traditions must give their allegiance and agreement, and an agreement which must express which which must respect our diversity, now I have kept repeating that statement since we made it and I asked anyone to tell me what they disagree with it, now the loyalist paramilitary some weeks ago said that if the I R A were to k their impression they've given all along is that they're just a reaction to the I R A and if the I R A were to stop they would cease immediately, I immediately put out a statement welcoming that statement by them, I also offered to talk directly to them, but they have refused er given the nature of their campaign, particularly at the moment, I begin to wonder do they want the I R A to stop? Have they some other reason for their resistance but are able to use the I R A as their excuse? Whatever Mr Major's motives may be for having concluded that your that the process is at an end that your involvement, effectively, with Gerry Adams is at an end, what about Mr Reynolds' motives? What possible reason might he have for agreeing with Mr Major that the Hume Adams initiative is dead? Well I have no evidence from either of them, you know, er that er they are slamming the door on my initiative, other than the statement that was issued which if you read it, there's very little in it that you can object to, or that I could object to, which commits them, the two governments to an initiative, and indeed that's what er the last statement that Mr Adams and I issued asked them to do, the only er they also in in their statements say that my actions have been both courageous and imaginative But that th the er but that the that the they're not paying attention to what's coming out of it But you clearly don't believe that that statement, the the Reynolds Major statement goes far enough. Well er n well oh f I'm not saying that er i I'm available. John Hume . That's what I'm saying. John Hume. Tomorrow the Transport Secretary John MacGregor reintroduces the bill to privatize British Rail to the House of Commons, it had a rough journey through the House of Lords and until late last week it looked set for a stormy passage through the Commons too, but then Mr MacGregor introduced a series of amendments that everyone assumes will satisfy the rebellious Tory MP s, but as Michael Gold reports, there are still obstacles for Mr MacGregor to surmount. Train now approaching platform two is the twelve fifty three service from Glasgow Central. It's been a bumpy ride, but the bill to privatize British Rail is almost at the end of its long parliamentary journey but the battle isn't over yet, earlier this week hundreds of protestors from a variety of backgrounds gave up a day and travelled from the North to carry their defiant message to Transport Secretary John MacGregor. It was railway workers who were in the vanguard of the protest, worried about job losses and safety, but Middle England was also on the march, concerned that services might suffer, polls indicate that four out of five voters oppose the sell off. It's ridiculous, I don't think they really realize what they're doing. You cannot privatize British Rail, it cannot be done. It's only a few people at this moment in this country, that does believe in railway privatization, and that is the Department of Transport. Leave the railways with British Rail, and put the money in that they would spend on privatization to improve the service for all of us, and keep it as a national railway, please. Why is the Government embarking on such an apparently unpopular privatization? Some Tories think it's a sop to the right from a weakened premier, the Government insist that the sell off is the best way to attract investment from the private sector into the railways, but there are signs that the break up of B R isn't proving as attractive to outside investors as the government hoped. Mayfair's Park Lane Hotel, art deco rendezvous for London's deal- makers. Would you like coffee, sir ? Coffee, sir? Er white, please. This week it was the venue for a gathering of bankers, managers, and academics, exploring the future of transport. Few at this conference were a-quiver at the prospect of bidding for the Tilbury to Southend line. Among the experts who were there was Professor Bill Bradshaw. My name's Bradshaw. Good morning. The Professor was advisor to the Tory dominated Transport Committee, and he's convinced the sell off will be a turn off. The private sector cannot invest in the circumstances set out in the bill, because they need very long franchises with control of all the means of production, the track, the trains, the stations, the total business. That is not provided in the bill, the private sector will not invest, and our railways will go on getting more unreliable. The business men and boffins here have made money moving people from A to B across the globe, but very few of the governments they've advised have ever tried to privatize their railways, and none have tried in quite the manner Mr MacGregor proposes. One man who is used to spending millions helping finance transport projects is Frank Borgus, he's helped oversee privatizations in the U S but from his perspective the B R sell off doesn't look attractive. What you need to do is to be able to provide a private sector a certain level of certainty, that the concession will be er granted long enough so that one can recover both your costs an=and certainly be able to to make a profit and so er to the extent that the franchises that are being considered are short natured, seven years, er that becomes rather disadvantageous and unattractive er concessions of twenty and thirty and forty years, and and really thirty thirty to forty year period er do make it in fact make it very attractive for private sector involvement. That might seem to leave the Government in the dark, but they're confident they know where there going. British Rail employees and managers will borrow cash, so the Government hopes, in order to buy profitable services, like the East Coast mainline from their employers. Getting their hands on their own trains might seem attractive, but any manager tempted would be taking a big risk. The prospects for management buy-outs are really very bleak, the reason for that is that the franchises which we're hearing about are likely to be very short, the franchisee will own no assets, no land, no rolling stock, nothing with which to go to the bank as security for loan. At the end of the franchise period he will have nothing to sell, so I cannot see how people could go away and borrow the working capital with which to run a business. The profitability of flagship lines like the Gatwick Express sustains the Government's belief there will be management buy-outs. Few managers would think of embarking on such a course if they faced competition from B R itself, that's why the Government originally barred B R from bidding. However, when the bill reached the upper house Lord Paignton amended it to let B R bid, for two reasons. First because it er offers the Government quite a good reason for dropping the bill altogether, er a er and bowing to parliamentary opinion in doing so that's not a shameful thing to do, er if it had been able to do that on the other hand it would have the benefit of in=incorporating in its own proposals a measure of continuity and experience which are no there already. The Lord's vote had reverberations along the corridor at Westminster, a number of MP s hitherto quietly concerned about privatization now went public, they thought the Lords vote would take the sting out of the sell off because B R would win most of the bids, ministers vowed to defy the rebels, but just before the bill left the Lords the Government seemed to cave in. Your Lordships will be aware that the Government has been giving careful consideration to the issue of whether B R should be a franchisee in the light of the noble lord Lord Paignton's amendment, agreed at committee stage. Clearly my right honourable friend the secretary of state will want to hear the views of another place, but I can say that he will not be recommending that the amendment should be overturned. Even as Lord Caithness seemed to buckle the Government were tabling their own amendments to fix the odds against B R bids a finesse, but the rebels bought it. I want to see the er possibility of British Rail being able to say, well you know we could improve our act, we could do things differently, and er we we wou we have experience of running a railway, and therefore, you know, please let us bid. That's why I thought it was wrong that er British Rail should not be allowed to bid, and I think that the Government's compromise is a very sensible one. It was passengers who were supposed to benefit from Lord Paignton's amendment, the rebels think they've safeguarded the spirit of that vote, but experts disagree. The amendment the Government has put forward does not hold out much real hope for B R managers about remaining in the medium or long term in charge of viable business, to that extent the amendment does not carry out what I believe was the intention of Lord Paignton in in moving the amendment. So Mr MacGregor's hard work may yet come to grief, even if he sorts that problem out there's another obstacle to privatization running smoothly, many on the railways think the private sector will need a generous subsidy before they'd be interested, if their not attracted the state will have to spend more to make the new structure work, a lot more. On The Record's obtained a paper prepared by a committee including senior civil servants and the Treasury and Transport Department, called the Restructuring Working Group, the report forecasts an increase in the amount of taxpayer's money subsidizing the railways, this year it will be eight hundred and fifty million pounds, after privatization, the paper says, the central government grant requirement would total some two billion pounds in nineteen ninety four ninety five. By owning the track and leasing the trains the Government can recoup some money, but will that calm Tories who see millions spent on privatization while other budgets are cut. Mr MacGregor's avoided one collision with his back benchers, but when they realize the bills cost and consider how B R 's been dealt with the question is, will they think again? Well, will they, Mr MacGregor? Have you, or have you not, please, accepted the Paignton amendment? Well firstly the bill didn't have that rough a passage in the House of Lords, because there are only two basic amendments, er that we're dealing with in the House of Commons that matter, and one of them is the one you've just mentioned, the answer to it is this, er I've had a lot of criticisms of giving B R the untrammelled right to bid, er right from the outset their criticisms to do with the danger that you wouldn't get competition for the franchises the private sector would be afraid, and incidentally this is not a sell off it's it's a way of getting the private sector into British Rail with all the advantages that brings, they would be afraid that they would face subsidized and unfair competition, above all, perhaps, British Rail ge=management would feel if they were bidding against their employer that would be a real discouragement to bid, and we've a lot of evidence er that they feel that and that there are many who do wish to bid in management/employee buy outs, so what we've done in the amendment is we've preserved the right for British Rail to bid, but we've dealt with those criticisms and worries which have come from a lot of quarters not least from within British Rail itself. So, have you accepted the Paignton amendment? I have accepted part of it, and I've amended it to ensure that we can overcome the criticisms er that would have been involved if we'd left it er as it was, er and above all, and I think this is the most important thing, we've made sure that it will work, er and that it will meet our objectives of getting competition into the franchises, if we'd just ended up with one great monolithic British Rail, after all each franchise remember will be coming gradually, they won't be doing them all at once, there will be one next year, several the year after, and so on , if British Rail had been able to go around and pick them off, and say, Well we can run this now in the future much better than we've done it in the past, so we'll bid, and we'll bid a low bid, that really wouldn't have been getting fair and proper competition into the system, so what i what I've done is ensured, as I've done all the way through in this bill in accepting amendments, that we make sure we achieve our objectives, and that above all it's workable, the, as it was it wouldn't as it was the Paignton amendment wouldn't have been workable, because there would have been total chaos and confusion Alright but within British Rail itself. The reality is that you've said to British Rail, you can bid for those franchises that nobody else wants The which is the situation anyway, because if people if nobody had bid British Rail would would have continued to Well, well run them anyway. of course that is a point that we've made all the way through, it's not if nobody would bid, it's if the franchising director was not satisfied with the quality or the long term viability of the bids he'd received Yes or didn't think they were Comes down to the same thing in the end. Or they weren't, or, you see the other important point here is that British Rail will be restructuring all the twenty five potential passenger franchises, they're starting on this now They've just finished one restructuring . they will then they will , they've just started actually But they've finished one . No, well the key point is the key point is that they they have to have a period during which they have a track record of running those separate businesses, so that bidders will know the basis on which their bidding, now if if the franchising director, it's entirely his decision, decides that er he's not getting competitive enough bids or good enough bids, then yes British Rail would carry on, and this was clear right from the outset, would carry on running that particular Right, so you actually franchise, so the difference the difference now, is that they will be able er in some, certain circumstances to come in and bid directly at the outset. But only if the franchise director decides that there is not a viable bid from the private sector or from B R management. Only if he feels that a private sector or B R management would be er frightened off bidding, and he knew that there were viable bids in play Yes, precisely. and if he feels it would not But lead to proper competition, that's correct . So let so nothing in reality has changed, has it? Oh I'm quite sure there will be situations in which er British Rail will bid, and will, well it's up to the franchising director, but is likely to get the franchise, there will be situations. But then even if they do that and even if they get the franchise, they're not going to be able to say, we can now hold on to it for five, or seven, years, however long the franchise is going to be, because if another bidder comes along in the meantime and says, we rather like this ourselves, they'll be thrown off. No, if they bid for the franchise, then, and get it, obviously that franchise runs for the period, and by the way, a lot of the criticisms in the film, I think were based on a misunderstanding that all the franchises are going to be short, they're not, those where there's a substantial investment going in can be quite a bit longer Well well how long, how long ? Oh ou we haven't, it would depend on the market place, on the reaction . But but I mean are we talking about really We could be talking of ten years and beyond, er beyond ten years . What, twenty years? I doubt it, we no we wouldn't wish to go to, I don't think, to twenty years, er but it would depend on the level Tha tha that's interesting it will it will depend on the level of investment that the bidder is prepared to put in we're being very flexible, responding to the market forces So that it might be then But fifteen years, let's say where we've Yes. been talking until now about seven years, we might be talking about fifteen years. Well some people have been talking about five to seven years, I've been saying all the way through that we're very flexible on this, and clearly if erm a bidder whether it's a management buy out with other people in the bid, others in the consortium, or an outright bid from a private sector consortium er if if they get the franchise and make clear that that's on the basis that they're going to put a lot of money into the capital investment, then clearly they will want a longer period and we have made that clear . Well I may have missed something you've said, but I haven't heard you say fifteen years before . I've said quite often that ga it could be I mean flexible to a certainly to ten, and in the right circumstances beyond that. So I can take it as as gospel this morning that some of these franchises will be fifteen years, how many might be fifteen years, might they all be fifteen years ? If, if, if, they are prepared if they're prepared to put sufficient funding in er into the capital investment side. So if they all come along with lots and lots of money they'll all have fifteen years. Well now you see, I don't think they'll do that, because another, another, another, I'm sure they won't from what we've been told . another mistake in the film was to suggest that in a a short franchise, say of seven years they would need a great deal of working capital, but they won't need a great deal of working capital or or share capital, they will actually be running a business where they get subsidy, because if er they're involving socially necessary lines, like commuter lines, or or rural lines, then we've made it very clear er that the taxpayers subsidy will continue, because these are loss making businesses, they will be bid they will bid for subsidy, and they will continue to get that subsidy, so they will have the flow of whatever income they can increase, in the passenger franchise, plus the subsidy, plus, and this is a very important point in what we're doing in the restructuring of British Rail, you see, nobody up till now has said that British Rail is perfect, everyone acknowledges that there are big improvements to be made, the way we're structuring it will get those improvements because the smaller franchises, not the great big monolithic nationalized industry, the smaller units,ha will be able to identify much more clearly where they can make the savings and where they can increase the revenue . But they won't be able to deal with their main sources of production, as er Professor Bradshaw said there, they're going to have absolutely you've got no control over the track on on which they operate, and they ar going to have to hire their carriages from and rolling stock from a separate leasing company, so their room for manoeuvre is limited to say the least . That's, that's, that's in a very small, er short franchise which is very similar to operators in other What so they passeng in in other in other transport areas So that if it's a fifteen-year but you see it, I me franchise, they may actually get, I'm I'm They I'm very puzzled by this now so I ask for clarification, if it's a long franchise then, if it's a fifteen year franchise, are you saying that the franchisee will have control over the track? And over the rolling stock? They may, let me just explain the track then, in those situations they may well be investing in the depots, maintenance and so on, but let me just And the track? let me just go beyond So but but just answer that bit first, so I'm clear not, not, not on the track as not on Right so, so the track as such, can I just explain the position on the Alright. track, because it it, no other transport business er has er does has to have a business, which op owns both the track it's operating on and the operating er facilities themselves, so the we're not doing anything new here, what we are actually doing, and incidentally the German government and other governments are going down the same route now because it's not true to say that others aren't privatizing, what we're doing is saying that we are having a separate track authority, and there are a variety of reasons for that, er but the an and that means actually less investment by the franchisee himself, but he will have control over the th the track operations, because he will have a contract, with Rail Track, to deliver certain services, and if Rail Track doesn't deliver them then he's able to claim penalties so But he he will have the same relationship as so many other companies have er in relationship to other services they need to operate their business. Let's just consider the political problem though you have still got a problem selling it to a lot of MP s, if they're listening to this interview and they are concluding, maybe rightly, maybe wrongly, that actually things aren't changing very much, and they may think they've been sold a pup with these amendments, indeed I hear that some of them have had to be bought off, well, is it true that one of them was sent off to Peru on an on an election er supervision mission in order that he might not be around when the bill came up . He's, he's actually going to be there to to vote for the bill vote for the amendment But was he, he was sent off to Peru as a sweetener, was he ? well there are, no, no, because he's going to be there to vote, but on, on Yes Can I deal with your main point, er and in's very important, er, to understand this, er, the vast majority of the parliamentary party supports strongly what we're doing, because they believe it will improve passenger services, it will deal with getting freight on, more freight on to rail, now they they backed it throughout the party conference backed it almost unanimously Alright,n what we're dealing with is a small group of MP s who thought there were some advantages in the Paignton amendment I've discussed it very thoroughly with them for some time, and they agree that there were real difficulties about the Paignton amendment which I've now addressed Okay, let me talk about money then, do so there are an awful lot of people, let me say, there is th it is a complete falsehood to suggest that the parliamentary party isn't behind the bill Okay, money we had a meeting earlier this week were I got huge support, indeed some were urging me not to give way at all on the Paignton amendment. Money. Two billion pounds, it's going to cost you, going to cost us, the taxpayers . I, that, there have been endless position papers in the department and I haven't actually seen that one Well, here it is. the I don't You haven't seen it? It's, it's, it's, it's a committee that you set up, the Restructuring Working Group that that your department set up . But they do loads of that way way down in preparing all these things, and loads and loads of different views expressed at different times, I deal with actually the recommendations er as we get to the point of decision, but on the on the investment point Well is it true, or is it not true that it is going to cost an extra tw , total, I'm sorry, not an extra, total of two billion pounds. No I don't recognize that figure although it it er it what matters, is that we continue Well that's not quite the same as saying it isn't true, if I can just push you on that a little bit, you Well say you don't recognize it, is it true? Now that I know that For, for ninety four, ninety five and I've told you where it's come from, can you say that is too much It is not necessary, to have it on that scale er in nineteen ninety four ninety five That's not the same as saying it isn't true is it? it isn't necessary, well it is the same as saying it isn't true, it isn't necessary er because this will be built up over a period and it will be for er the Government in all the normal ways in the public expenditure round to decide how much goes into the passenger franchises and through that therefore into the Briti the Rail Track investment. Either way it's going to be an awful But lot more than eight But hundred and fifty million pounds, isn't it ? But can I just make the point that we have been investing a great deal in British Rail, and the idea that er all over the piece we're talking about non-modernized railways simply not true. Eight hundred million on the East Coast main line, four hundred million for rolling stock announced this week, four hundred million in new contracts, there's a lot of money going in right now . The ex the extra cost of privatization is going to be one heck of a lot more than than without any privatization, in that year we're talking about immediately, is it not ? No it's certainly not, in nineteen ninety four ninety five, certainly not . Not going to be more than eight hundred and fifty? Because were on not going to be of the scale that you were suggesting Well for the very simple reason that we will at most have one franchise in er nineteen ninety four, ninety five Well and so there will only be one franchise, this will build up gradually. Well let me quote to you what your own document says, on I, I the best view we have at the moment transfer of service from B R to franchises is likely to increase the subsidy requirement for the service in question a large upward leap in nineteen ninety four ninety five, now this is your own document and attending these on er on I, I on this restructuring group it's British Rail, it's the Treasury, it's the Department of Transport, it's the franchise director. It is that is a paper from somebody, I know not who, but can I just explain, if we're having one franchise passenger service next year, which is pretty well all you can do because you do need to have that record, track record, the business operating as a separate business before bidders can bid, if we're having one next year, to suggest as I think the quote was, that the that would cost about one point two billion pounds is ridiculous, it's ridiculous, a single, a single, What your group's quote, not mine, well must tell them then, will you go in tomorrow morning and say redo this working paper? a single passenger service costing that amount of money, absolutely not. Well where did they suck it from then, I mean I Don't ask me. know it's it's it's not something that I've put together. But it isn't actually the real point, the real point is that we will continue, well it Oh it's a very important point, isn't it, if it's going to cost a great deal more to push privatization through when you've got a fifty billion overspend anyway, I'd have thought people who were worried about V A T on fuel would say that is a very significant point. But it isn't because I've just said to you several times that one point two billion for a single franchise is absolutely ridiculous . Well, give me a figure then. It will be, it will depend on the bidding but it Alright. for and we will continue the subsidies to the passenger service Right. individual franchises will vary, depending on how successful they are and what the bids are Final very but it won't be that scale. Final very quick question, reports in the paper this morning that Chunnel, the the channel tunnel, the high speed link, and the tunnel itself are going to be delayed because the Treasury basically saying, we've run out of money, you can't do it, is that true? Delayed until two thousand and five, maybe. The point about two thousand and five is complete speculation. So is the main report true?only got a few seconds, I'm sorry . Let me tell let me tell you exactly Jubilee line is going ahead, er very large sums of money in the next three years Yes, lets talk about talk about channel tunnel high We speed link. The Cross-Rail and channel tunnel high speed link are at nothing like the state of preparedness of Jubilee Line, that's going ahead now after a lot of work, er th it it will not be the case er it that you can do either of those very quickly, Cross-Rail's only just started going through the House of Commons . So there is going to be a delay. So, we can't tell what the final deadline date will be because there are so many pro processes, to go through. John MacGregor, thank you very much indeed. Yesterday the Labour coordinating committee met for its annual get together, now this is the body that has set itself the task of modernizing the Labour Party, a difficult task at the best of times, made more difficult now because there is a growing shortage of volunteers for the cause, they can't even raise enough members to fill their own executive. Earlier this morning I suggested to arch modernizer Harriet Harman that she and her reforming colleagues had run into the buffers. Absolutely not, I think there's a strong sense in the Party that moving forward with our traditional values, that what we have to do is to apply those traditional values to a very changed world, things are very different now from when the Labour Party was formed, or even from when the Labour Party was last in government, so that we keep our sense of values, they are what grounds us, but what makes us an effective government in the future is the fact that we are moving forward with the times, and the increasing representation of women is one of the things which is about moving us forward, and moving with the times. Talk about the increasing representation of women, there were meant to be more women in the shadow cabinet with the elections for the shadow cabinet produced a disaster for women didn't it? They were abs a disaster for you. They were absolutely not a disaster for women, obviously I would have preferred to stay on the shadow cabinet, but we have three women in the shadow cabinet, and we have a number of women in senior positions outside the shadow cabinet . You'd like to have more. Well the trend though over all is absolutely clear, that the Labour Party is committed to increasing women's representation and is absolutely on that path, we've more Labour women MP s and increasing numbers of women in the shadow cabinet it's only in the end of the nineteen eighties, as recently as then, that we had no women in the shadow cabinet, now everybody agrees that it would look quite wrong not to have women in the shadow cabinet, we've got a woman deputy leader, three women in the shadow cabinet, and therefore we're definitely moving forward. You say the Labour Party is agreed that there should be more women in the shadow cabinet, but which is this Labour Party then, the parliamentary Labour Party certainly isn't, there was a conspiracy to keep women out. I don't think there was a conspiracy to keep Well Anne Clywd does. Well I don't Lots of other people do. No, I think that we would have liked to have seen more women, I would have liked to have stayed on the Shadow Cabinet, and I would have liked to have seen more women in the Shadow Cabinet, but to say it's a disaster, and somehow we've moved away from the path we've set ourself is simply not the case. Alright, let me substitute setback, for disaster then, how about that? Well I think it's it's a hiccup, nothing more, but I think the trend is clearly established, and it's very much agreed, it's recognized in the Labour Party, that the world outside has changed, women are now half the workforce, women are now half the college and university graduates, women's work now represents forty percent of our G D P, so we have to increase women's representation to recognize the world has changed. Why isn't that message getting across to the P L P then? Or to the er to the gentlemen in the P L P? Well I think that message is getting across to the P L P and we've seen more women coming into the House of Commons, sitting on the Labour benches at the last general election, but there also is a sense that the progress, although it's being made, needs to be speeded up, because when you have profound social changes outside the House of Commons, with a change in women's role in society, a change in women's role in the Labour force, and a change in women's role in the family as well, you can't allow your parliament to lag behind. So bearing all that in mind then, you sent exactly the wrong signal, didn't you with the elections to the Shadow Cabinet? Well I think that it is possible that as a result of the reporting of the Shadow Cabinet elections, that the sense was out in the public that somehow this was a setback for women, and that Labour It was, wasn't it? no, because the point is that Labour has not changed it's course, which is recognizing that at the heart of it's policies we have to show that we know the world has changed, and we've got a message to women, which is that we know that you are essential in your role in the family, but we know you're also essential in the economy, But, but and as bread winners for your family, and the way we do that is making sure that we have a parliamentary Labour Party of men and women, and that we're a party of men and women at all levels, and all But it's what and all Labour MP s would agree with that. But it's what, well would they? I mean it's one thing Yes, I think they would. to have a course, but if the crew on that particular ship mutinies, as they did during the last er Shadow Cabinet, then you're in trouble, aren't you? I mean look,for forgetting the women, but just look look at who else did well in those elections and who did less well, you had the modernizers doing less well, the Tony Blairs and the Gordon Browns, and you had the traditionalists, or the perceived traditionalists if you prefer, er the John Prescotts, for instance, and the Frank Dobsons doing extremely well. Well I think it's not helpful to look at it with such stark divisions, I think everybody's clear But those are the realities. No they're not the realities, because what we're saying is that we have to modernize the policies of the Labour Party, but the policies are absolutely based in our traditional concerns, I mean, let me give you an example, when Beveridge was talking about unemployment, and the life long need for people to work, he was talking about a male workforce, where it was a man supported by a non-working wife, now we still have at the absolute heart of our concerns in the Labour Party peoples need to work, but we're now talking about a situation, where women are sharing with their husbands the role of bed breadwinner, and in many families the woman is the sole breadwinner, and therefore our policies about employment and the economy recognize that the world has changed, our principles are the same, but the world to which we're applying it is very different, and, again, on that you see there would be no distinction between the so-called traditionalists and the so-called modernizers. Well then what explains the er the rise and rise of the so-called traditionalists and the falling back of the so-called modernizers. Well I just think it's not helpful to look at it in those terms, you don't actually, if you pick Well it it may not be helpful, but it is the reality, isn't it? Well no it isn't, no, no . You can't close your eyes and say, it isn't there, if I don't look it'll go away. No it's not, because it simply attaches labels to the people and doesn't understand what's going on, Ah, but and the real politics of it is that those labels are attached, and you know that as well as I do. No, what we have to look at is not the labels which are attached to each individuals, but say do we have Mhm. a good team of people in the Shadow Cabinet, do we have an excellent team i people in the parliamentary Labour Party, do we know where we've come from, and do no we know where we're going, and we do . Right, now will let m l Let me ask you where you are going then as far as the Party's own constitution is concerned, we saw a development, a significant development that I no doubt you would say at the Labour Party conference er er down in Brighton, but not withstanding O M O B the trade unions still have one third of the votes in the selection of the leader of the party, seventy percent say on policy matters at conference, there is still a trade union block vote. That isn't a modern party, is it? Well it certainly is, and we think that we've had an examin of our co , examination of the constitution, we've made a number of changes, but the task for Labour now is to press on with the issues of looking at our policies, and making sure that our economic policy and our social policy a actually meets the changes that are out their in the world . So that's it, that's, so that's it then for the modernization of the Party's constitution, we we what happened at Brighton was the end of the process was it? What we've got now is what we're going to have in another ten years time? Well I think people think that a certain amount of time and attention has to be devoted to the Party's constitution, and there are two things that arose out of the conference in Brighton. One member, one vote, for the selection of Labour members of parliament, but also increasing the representation of women, now people want to move on from that, they want a In what direction? well, they want us to move on to developing the policies which have addressed the changed world . Ah, so that's it for the Party, though is it? Well That, that the change to the constitution has ch that's it, all done. Well I think people are settled on the changes that have been made, and want to move on, and I don't think Right, so the answer to my question, of I may just th th clarify this, the answer to my question is, yes that is it now, we have finished with the modernizing of the Party itself, lets forget about policies for one moment, we'll come back to that, but we have finished with the modernizing of the Party. I think that people don't want to see any more constitutional changes, but there are many more changes in the culture, in the way the Party operates at local, regional, and national level, which we will be addressing, but what we're not going to have is more constitutional changes, because people feel that we've made changes, we have moved the Party forward, we're clear the direction we're going in, and now the Party at all levels wants to address itself not only to building our membership, but also to showing how the policies we've got meet the changed world outside. So it's okay in a modern Labour Party for the trades unions to have what is effectively still a block vote? Well, certainly people are satisfied with where we've got to and want to draw a line underneath it and move on from there, and I think the prospect of going back to the constitution er issues, and they m once again being a key focus, I don't think anyone in the Party, or outside the Party, sees the Labour Party wanting to devote itself to that at this time . Alright, policies then, the economy. Erm Gordon Brown is giving in, is he not to pressure from the traditionalists, when it comes to soaking the rich, or soaking the middle class, he's now saying, well maybe there will be a bit of soaking the rich, or soaking the middle class, whereas he wanted to say, and you wanted him to say, no we're not going to do that, we moved away from that. No, what we're saying is two things, firstly that we are not in favour of taxation for taxation's sake Well no party is. it's not a reflex action that the Labour Party somehow engages in, but there are things that we need to rave raise revenue for, such as investment in the economy, like our social policies, and that the way that we will raise revenue is that we we will have a fair taxation system, that is very straightforward, and agreed by the Party, unlike the Conservatives who firstly don't recognize there is any purpose in investment in the economy, public investment, or investment in social policies they don't agree with, and secondly, when they do have to raise money they do it in the unfairest possible way, penalizing most those who can least Let afford it. Let me just suggest to you that you are sending all the wrong signals on women, on Party constitution, on economic matters, on policy matters, the modernizers have lost the impetus, they're sending the wrong signals. The Party is sending the wrong signals. I think it's absolutely not the case to say that we're sending the wrong signals, I think there's a recognition in the country that the economy has been mismanaged, and the price that's being exacted by people is too high, high levels of unemployment, low levels of growth, and social services undermined, and people recognize that Labour is setting out a new way forward. Harriet Harman. And now John Cole on the options facing the Chancellor in his first budget, one month from now. This year's battle of the budget is generating more anguish than any for years, John Major's cabinet now realize what a parliamentary mess December might turn into with week-long debates on both the Queen's speech and the budget to pack in, and worse to come in the spring, a budget combining taxes with public spending seemed a good idea at the time Norman Lamont announced it, but with November the thirtieth just a month away the political down-side is appearing, of course with a fifty billion pound deficit in the Government's accounts this years spending round would have been hard pounding anyhow, but the usual noisy haggle over the available cash among departments is now amplified by posses of Tory backbenchers trying to head off this or that tax increase, and there's an incentive to keep that up right through the finance bill after Christmas, since most new taxes would not come in until April. A phrase from the Conservative's manifesto last year, we are the only party that understands the need for low taxation, has now returned to haunt them, for an MP in a marginal constituency this evokes the electoral ghost of George Bush, so he firmly rules out increases in income tax, but wouldn't mind putting V A T on newspapers and books. But would it be within the spirit of the manifesto to murmur, read my lips, no more direct taxes? Really, he says, people don't notice V A T so much, others believe income tax will have to take some of the strain, but not by putting up the rates, that would be too blatant. The best bet is that the Chancellor will confine higher allowances against tax to the lowest grade, thus asking the better off to pay a bit more. On the spending side, with the total fixed, the game this year is robbing Peter to pay Paul, or rather, to pay Malcolm. Defence Secretary Rifkind is reported to be grateful for support from the fourteen military minded Conservatives whose confidential letter to the Prime Minister was somehow left lying on a copying machine for a Labour researcher to find, but he is irritated by the leak, an insider murmurs that Malcolm's notching up black marks for the future. Peter Lilley as a right winger has to combine his reputation as a zealous cutter of the state sector with a departmental budget that eats up to forty percent of the hole, one MP groans, rather inconsequentially, a weeks social security payments would buy a warship, even Kenneth Clark and Michael Portillo, sharpening their axes have to admit that Lilley did not exactly invent unemployment personally, but the burgeoning budget for invalidity benefit, together with much anecdotal evidence, suggest that somebody in Whitehall, well before his time, decided to cut the unemployment figures artificially by allowing, even encouraging people with little hope of jobs to remember that troublesome pain in their backs, and in the process get better benefits. But cutting this benefit will throw up hard cases, what worries a Tory elder is the way younger MP s approach the decision whether to support the Government on a pick and mix principle, he says, they no longer see the need to take the rough with smooth, to vote for the things they detest as well as those they like. According to one loyalist thirties thirty or so of his colleagues think it's more fun to vote against the Government, a smaller number go further, they think a spell in opposition might enhance their own careers. But a member of the cynical tendency jeers that after all this brouhaha, a Prime Minister who's obsessed with political safety, will only allow minor pain, though back benchers will be encouraged to squeal so as to impress the markets. But what, he demands, about the panic when interest rates go up to fund the deficit, and the City begins to think that Labour will win. A former senior minister who has been through many spending rounds says we take them all much too seriously, they are merely a mating ritual, he says, adding, and a barren one at that, no offspring. Well you can tell that to the Treasury, or to the Marines. John Cole. That's it for this week, until next week at the same time, good afternoon. Okay Ron there are, thanks for coming over for a start, there are you've got all the er the brochure and the er obviously the application form. The first time I've had a chance to have a look through this so could I erm Yes by all ask you to while I read this the the six companies where we market our brochures or product Okay are represented there. Er for your background there's a there's obviously a a ha an obvious group but er those are the six companies. If I can just er read through this. That company we bought erm in June last year so it's er a fairly newish launch for us but they're I've an idea myself for the golf er Mhm. and that was erm supplying them with a complete mar tee marker board with a plan of the hole and an advert on that particular hole . Oh you oh you mean up on the board or On the board. Yes okay. Advertise sell that hole and er just basically supply the tee markers free of charge. Yes all the er tees on our my own my own course are er sponsored by local businesses. Well that's what I was going to personally that's individual eighteen holes mind you know. Yeah. What I was going to do was erm just get a good quality joiner have he gives me a price for doing that and then I basically sell the advertising. Okay. Yeah that he we've just completed up here and one or two others er so we're we're getting some big boys in now . But you've not you've not done that particular idea, tees? No no we've we're we are er publishers printers that's where our background is. That's where we've been for the last twenty years so erm this company er that was already doing it and we bought it into the er into the fold. Okay. Er can I just pick up on one or two points er Ron. Erm at present you are employed by and you you've got own you've got a company car. Have you got your own car? Er no but that's no problem to buy a car. Well if you think it's no problem fine . So rather than have er two cars plus a company car I just sold my car. Well I understand that I mean a lot of people do that. Erm however erm a company er a car is needed to do this job so I I home in on that. Er when we have erm when you come down for, you know if if if we decide that this is for you, er when you come down for a training course they expect to see a car. You know in other words will help me driving. In other words erm they won't allocate an assignment unless you have er have a car. It's as simple as that cos we could send you off to St Andrews or something like that to er to well I'm just I'm homing in on the erm on the golf on the basis that I you you're er you're representative for a a company that does is involved with golf equipment. Yep? Erm sports or just golf industry. Mhm. Oh I've seen there in fact my wife's got a set of Howsons so Has she? Is that the Yes. Yeah. Erm you've been with them since August. Er what why are you er? Well quite simply er my reason is that erm I'll read the letter to you that I dictated to the Sales Manager a week ago. Right. It says,To Mr Sales and Marketing Direct . Dear Graham, Further to our recent conversation by telephone I now wish to put on paper my complaints regarding you and the company. You employed me in August nineteen ninety three at to join Sports U K on their behalf. Your offer of employment was accepted on the terms of the contract agreed that if my figures attained would reach your targets I could earn twenty five thousand per annum minimum. The salary would base as my basic salary plus commission plus bonuses on a monthly basis and most importantly the promise that because the basic wage was so low, the lowest in the golf industry by your own words, er that there was to be a rise of approximately four thousand in January nineteen ninety four. Which you repeated many times to the sales reps and that you also would be have er would get us new cars. The cars were honoured as agreed. I also took on the position knowingly of the bad reputation in Scotland of Sports to the trade regarding hotel sales of your equipment, but was promised that this practice would be cut out. It never did and you continued to supply a person who to this date continues to do these hotel sales. I have also complained to you continually about the loss of orders I have taken from my customers, ie back orders which get lost on the computer or they are not delivered due to the lack of stock. The customer gives up after a few months waiting. In the past few months the complaints from my area from my customers that they are disgusted with the service they have received from Sports. Er at least thirty percent of my business erm have either stopped their accounts or reached the limit of their patience. With regards to my salary increase of January ninety four, recently you have now stated my increase with be take place in April ninety four. Another promise broken. Even though I have reached my monthly target I still receive no bonuses but you tell me I am on target for the large bonus in April. Er and I have put in brackets, What a month this could be. I have also found that rep the reps are all on different basic wages. When challenged about this you replied, Yes, but you have the least experience in the golf industry. And I have replied er, Who in the past six months has reached their targets percentage targets above mine in the last six months? Yeah okay. I think I've got your drift. Basically what I'm doing is Can I can I just go back hotel sales, is that where they supply er They are they er are doing a practice which is the only golf company in industry who are supplying a friend of a friend who is going round Scotland doing hotel sales cheap. Oh yeah all right. There are so many clubs they should I think I think I've been to one or two in York. Well they're selling them cheaper than I can supply my customers. Are your customers mainly Pro professionals. On clubs or Yes. And shops golf shops? Yes. So basically they've broken their contract with me and he's not even responded to that letter. So But his response is likely to be well part company, is that it? I anticipating that is what response will be because I have er basically called him and er Okay. If that's his case then I'll take him for breach of contract. Okay. On the basis of that you're actively looking around? Yes. Okay. Now my colleague John spoke with you and he he outlined as much as he possibly can on the on the space on the telephone. Erm and his interests in you was twofold. First of all he heard the voice was okay . Yes. Because he would have told you I hope that er we sell advertising space into, well you've seen some samples over there. Er I'm going to step, sorry before I go into a bit more detail in your C on your er application form, three things will be decided here today Ron and that's first of all whether you and I think that er is a lau a launch pad for you to earn erm er some good money Yes. and er I'm sure John will have told you how good the money can be if if we We didn't get to depth and and All right. I I we're only talking ever averages and on target earnings. We don't promise or guarantee anything. What we do say is that we will give you an opportunity erm er if you like a platform for er for earning good money Yes. and er it is all down to the graft er an individual puts into it. The only reason er top earners are top earners in our company is they don't sit back and take one deal a day That's right they feel comfortable Er er if there if there's a part there I've dis I think I've answered that question in er personal at the end Over over here? Yep. Erm I think just I've answered that just probably the way you put it. Yep. I er in fact you've wrapped it up in one sentence. That's the only way that any I believe anybody even when they're on a salary. Because salary company car BUPA and all that is only commission in another form and they can take it away and and not give it to you just the same as any other company. Erm well okay so we'll decide today er you and me whether we feel 's the right er er space for you to be. Erm and you realize of course that it's self employed commission only hence the need for the car. Er secondly if we get a if we if we get round that that er corner then the other two are fairly easily decidable and that is er where you and I also think erm your talents and your even your desire to be environmentally, that's the environment you work in erm most er suitable. There are six companies there er five of which erm I can recruit for. I'm in the luxurious position of not just saying that one person comes in here for one job. Yes. Erm I have four or five people I can take on for any one of those companies so nobody's in competition with Yes. each other today. And secondly erm because we're rather keen for people to er carry on the momentum we actually say to you when can you start and if it's next week wonderful. If it's the week after fine. The further out of course it's a bit a bit messy. And so we are we look for that sort of commitment before people leave er the room today. And I would tell you ninety nine percent of the time we get it and you know we s we s we do agree a date. Er that depends entirely on which company you go in because erm er some of the courses start at different er times. If we've agreed all those three things er we also erm er recognize the need to to erm advise people or guide people on how advertising's sold. I see from your application form that you've sold space er for three or four years which Well I have been er involved in various projects. Erm I had a company called and Advertising erm where I went along to a company and would conceive promotion for them. Was that your own company ? Yes. Yes. And I would build a package to suit their company. Er if it was a double glazing company or a kitchen company I would conceive a promotion. Er there's one thing I was involved which er unfortunately turned out er was quite national, it was a promotion What the the disastrous one? Yes. Er well the one I got involved with er was the free flights to er Europe All right. which was very successful and er I was one of the instigators of that promotion. Er but So everybody else can blame you for this Well not really. The the pen to paper I put the con er the package basically together with another two or three people Aha. and erm it was then up to to decide what company was going to handle the promotion. Er their mistake was that they chose a company which was down market and basically didn't go into er depth of that company. Well that was their fault. The the concept of the promotion was absolutely brilliant and it could be handled from Europe Mm. erm and it was so successful that they asked us again to do one from the United States Right. which we says no because it couldn't be possibly done. We believed. Becau we thought that the should may be too high. What are you saying that you were the ori the company who were originally asked to do the My company was involved with er the people who put the promotion together. Right. And er quite simply that if they'd left it alone on a European side because obviously you can get flight from London Gatwick for approximately forty nine pounds Yeah right. and we presumed that the redemption would be no more than twenty percent which was pretty high for a promotion. Right. Erm as long as as long as the customer went through the channels and the procedures there'd no more than twenty percent. So much so that we took out insurance er if it went over twenty percent we were covered. But then what happened it was so successful for and I think got so greedy on it they decided to go an American Mm. er promotion. But there were two separate companies who set up the the both promotions. So as you know the American one collapsed and of course were thirty million pounds. Yeah and there are some people are still fighting to get their er flights right Yes. now aren't they? And I erm I had various er promotions. I had er put a promotion together with a few travel agents in Scotland where I gave out holiday spending money. It was quite simply we we were taking the business away from the high street erm glossy type travel agents and giving it to the back street travel agents. And as long as he was prepared to give the spending money, ie in the form of a voucher, er we were taking away the market share away from etcetera of this world. Right. And that worked very successfully. Okay this is all part of the promotion and advertising Yes time? Yes. Okay. Because the rest of your er er your application form I mean er gives us a span of er twelve thirteen years in sales particularly in direct sales. Vacuums is that vacuum Yes cleaners? Yes. cleaning machine was an American machine. Right, yes I think I've heard of them. Yes. Erm very successful priced basically out of the price the market eventually. Erm they're still in the market today but er you're talking about Are we talking VAX type things or No no. You're talking about a home care system. That is a vacuum cleaner, that's one of the functions it does Yeah. but it done approximately thirty odd diff different Oh well shampoo carpets okay and I suppose er er suites of furniture and things I had the sales force who called in and done a demonstration in a person's home. All right. So I had to take it from the telesales side to get the appointment to get in the door to do a demonstration and then to do the after sales. Right okay. Erm You cut your teeth there didn't you? I erm I was If not before. I was a European top salesman with er that company and then moved on as a franchise. Right. You seem to erm er you you leapfrog into erm after into electrical appliances again? Er yes because obviously I was in that type of field. Er I was in the market and we came out with a machine that produced lager from top tap worker. That's still going isn't it? Yes. And you just poured the water in top press a button and you get draught lager and they have now produced I believe, er it was network marketing, and I wasn't involved I didn't want involved in network marketing and it now produces gin and tonic vodka lemonade. Well it's been on er consumer selling Yes. Very good product. Excellent product but er the f the network marketing is not my side and you could not direct selling. All right. It's all done okay. You had to bring someone into the business and they brought someone into the business and that was their form of selling. Well that's that's big business nowadays. Yes. In fact in the State I think twenty percent of er all products are sold through network marketing now That's right In fact the Institute of Directors of which I'm a member er said er that network marketing's a thing of the future. Yes definitely. I mean it started Yeah if if you're if you're happy to get into that. Can cost you some money but it's er it's it's it's prefer it's preferable to er pyramid selling which of course is outlawed now. The reason I went to erm Sports Mhm? erm which quite simply I had some money of my own and I wasn't that hungry er to jump in to any job at all. So I wanted to get into something I enjoyed doing. And I'm a very keen golfer and I had built up a reputation erm by playing in open tour open tournaments and meeting professionals and Yea. so I had a lot of contacts and I enjoyed it. Erm but it unfortunately things have not worked out with er this particular company. Well no it doesn't sound by that er letter you wrote. I think you f you felt I I have done my job. My targets er have been broken every month. I had a hundred and twenty seven percent er sorry twenty seven percent above target er for the quarter and most of my other com my sales reps er the other sales reps in the business didn't even reach a hundred percent. Well how do you feel I mean a lot of a lot if not all of your work here has been done face to face. Now Yes. John will have told you the way we operate er we we we er we Telephone only sell on the telephone. That's what people . Well erm you know we've had a lot of people come to us and say we've qualified sales by telephone, I don't present that a problem with that, but we have discovered people have not listened to what we've been saying, even on the training course, when they go out there to sell the space they keep making appointments to go and see people to talk about advertising. That is not the game. And as long as somebody realizes that that's our top people erm do that. They don't make appointments to go and see people. What what I mean where do you see yourself fitting into that after If I if it was sat trying to make an appointment with you for example er and I don't know too much about the product we're just getting No fine. Well there I mean there's the product there's Well give me I'll give you an example. If I was phoning you from Publishing and I phoned up G A Aha. and I says, Good afternoon could I speak to the person that does advertising etcetera, and I get through to that particular person, and I said, How would you like to save money by us printing all your portfolios free of charge high quality er portfolios it wouldn't cost you a penny. Right let me stop you there because I think you've got maybe the wrong end of the stick. All right. We don't sell that product to anybody. No no you give that product away free. Okay but we don't your the responsibility of the sales consultant here is not to approach the estate agent or the golf to sell that, somebody else does that. Oh I thought I had to get the estate agent first and then get the space . No no no no we the the the assignments that are, that's why I stopped you there Oh I see just in case there's any confusion. Right okay. That product there already either exists or we're going to do it for the first time for an estate agent Right okay. and that has been done by a marketing exec who goes round the country contracting with those clients. Oh right. This is our client. So that's the job there. That's the job for our consultant So okay. Now let's let's say Mr Mr Plumber So you're you're talking to Mr Plumber and you don't even mention our company name Okay. you are representing G A G A at that er so and so Okay. Er good afternoon Mr Smith I'm phoning er from G A General Property Services in such and such Okay. Now you you live in the catchment area of that particular company, how would you like to er, how would you like to participating in that particular company's brochure which is handed out to all the people in your catchment area? Whereas if a house is being sold your name is going to be seen on that particular product. All right. Now I'll I'll stop you there Ron because you've got the you've got the drift of it because when we get down to deciding people come on a course then they have Training. we we we speak for two days at least in compiling a script. And that script has been built up over twenty years experience. But you've certainly the idea of what it is. Telesales er telephone erm I have sold products obviously without the customer even seeing me, I've sold them over the phone. I am confident on the phone Mhm. and I don't think you'd have any problem doing this job, I'll be quite frank with you. Er I Not with this background here. I mean it's such a variety and it's involved both face to face and direct sales that er er I know I stopped you right in the middle of your spiel there. Now what you would say to Mr Plumber, This is this is the whole deal this is what it would cost you. You see in traditional sales we don't tell people the price until the last minute. At that particular time I wouldn't tell them anything, all my all at that particular time is waiting for an appointment to see them. Now that's what we don't do Ron. Oh you don't go out and see them . Absolutely that's what exactly I'm asking you to listen about. The reason I'm asking you about that is erm I had er I had when I had my own business I was approached and we've got an estate agent in the Hamilton called Oh oh yes big one. And I had a phone call Big one in Paisley here too. I had a phone call from somebody who was obviously be doing exactly the same thing, and he actually just was booking an appointment to come in and see me. Yeah. Well in fact it I would be very surprised A if he was one of ours and B if he was successful. Because quite honestly we tell them absolutely everything on the phone before we we go. We don't make appointments and chase our tail. Mhm. And I'll tell you from experience. My first week our there I did that and I didn't earn anything. Right. I got to the appoint yes come round Rod I'd like to talk to about it have a cup of coffee. And I just spent three quarters of an hour to an hour with him and he said, Well I've had a look at this erm, no thanks not for me. Mm. I had wasted So you phoned my journey there. Oh yes all of those people would have committed on the phone to taking that advertising space. Okay. See why I want I wanted to be Yes yes absolutely certain. Because that's exactly what traditional sales people would do including Yes. this boy who'd been doing it a few years. Okay. So and they will te they will tell you that. Now that's what the company preaches. There are going to be one or two occasions of course when it is likely come come round I want to I'll I want to see the product. In the main we tell them exactly Okay. what what's going on. But you you've got the drift and as long as I I persuade people to listen to the people who've been doing it for so long Obviously. They know it's successful. They know that you don't make appointments and chase your tail. Because one of the commitments I hope John er may have told you on the phone, one of the parts of the contract we have with G A is that they provide a list of businesses. Yes. That's obviously that's I would Yeah now that I'll come on to that in a minute. But er that is is half the battle. Okay. On the basis that I don't think you've got any problem doing this and nor do you, you're confident enough to do this job especially with your background. Erm if I was to give you an option a choice of which market area you think you would be most happy with, where do you think? Where is the market areas, what is the choices? Well the choices are estate agents and there are two companies there, that's one you're holding there and then the folders at the top. There's medical practice areas, that's working in medical centres and surgeries. Er schools universities and colleges. Area health authorities up here which we're not looking for at the moment and er because the Government is hashing them around and we're a bit uncertain in that area. And of course golf clubs. Well golf clubs erm I mean it's a bit limited advertising in a in a market er on this particular thing to look at . You've got five you've got probably somewhere in the region of four thousand pounds worth of advertising there. What in this? Mhm. Okay so they're paying approximately what Nine hundred pound for a nine hundred pound for a full page. Per annum. Per annum for two years. Okay. Er and you're only needing approximately two or three, you only need two or three Well the fact that we've got three there, there there that's how many we got on that card and we were quite happy about that. But the card and the planner's sold together. Right can I ask you then. So you're s you're saying the plan of the course er when We call it planners that the yardage chart in fact. There's also another thing that a golf course has is a where you want a distance marker. If you go along to a good quality golf course they have the score card a planner but they also have a little script that tells you about the hole. Well no we don't go into that. That's fi quite expensive to produce. Right okay so That's a stro that would be what you would call a stroke saver. We would call that, there's that and the ca and the score card. So if I had if I had one course to go along and find approximately how many adverts for it? Well we're talking about ten. Ten adverts? That's five five on each. Er and of course nine hundred pounds to advertise. Well that's if they che if they all took full pages. Because there're there are facilities to split the pages and there are small strips. If you where your hand is now if you look down the bottom, no no on the on the other side there, there are two strips. Okay. Two hundred and fifty pound each those are. Now the question is how much can I earn for doing that Right well I will go into that if if that If I were to make my decision obviously No because Well the the same earning ability is across all those products. The same earning Doesn't doesn't matter which company you go into you have the same er percentage, you have the same thirty percent or thirty five percent depending on how far away it is and you have the same bonus structures. They all come into being at the same time. So whichever company or environment we agree is suitable for you. Well I mean The natural place would be of course golf clubs. But you said you were a keen golfer. Where do you think I see the dangers in that? I'm captain of my club this year right? I wouldn't trust me on the golf club scene. You wouldn't trust yourself? Why why? I could kill the advertising simple. Probably because you would want to go and play. Aha. Erm So I'll tell you what, if we put a keen golfer out, and we have we've we've put one or two golfers, If I if we put a keen golfer on that it's even bigger er position of trust. Well can I say something to you in that case then? Yes sure. I I I visit approximately about thirty golf clubs on a weekly basis Yeah. I have never played golf time . You haven't got time have you. You haven't got time. Here we're talking about basing yourself for three weeks on that same golf course. Aha. Doing erm two or three dozen phone calls Yes. and getting nowhere and you're saying I think I'm thor thoroughly annoyed about all this And I'm going to get nowhere if I get on the golf course. Yeah that's right . No I don't think that worry would be there. I I have to say that we we I I we just we just see that we point out to people it's an even bigger po position of trust. But it would be natural for me to put you in the golf club area. Er well I don't think I'd be I don't think I'd be going out to play golf if I hadn't earned any money. That's right. Er Well I'd go hungrier. So are we are we talking er do you see this as a as a as a launch pad? How well have you done on the golf courses? Well the one those since since June we're doing quite well. Mhm. We did we've just completed we've done three or four others. But I don't I have to keep in touch of course with all companies how we're doing. So I don't go specifically into that. Yeah. Next question is Aha? The golf course is no problem because you're getting it done free of charge. That that's easy for you to get a golf course. Yeah we we have no problem with that. Is that an up market golf or is it just No. Any type of golf course Any golf course that wants those providing they can tell us that there's erm there's going to be a useful amount of sponsorship you know er advertising available for us to approach. Mhm. But it would be no good to them and say well you know right in the middle of nowhere, cow er sheep or cow country, there are a number of courses we wouldn't touch because we wouldn't be able to get enough sus er you know even with five erm major businesses. There there I have to say there'd be very few. Right. Can I approach my own golf clubs or is that going to be done through you? No you must not do that yourself. It's got to be done by you. Yeah if if you know of one because we we have cir you know we have circulated and we have a sales exec that goes out Yes. to the courses. Erm that doesn't mean to say that you can't mention it. Mhm. But you see you will be so busy Just I know the topography probably better than erm Oh sure. the person that's doing it, just er no disrespect but he's probably coming from over the border No no they're all Scots people up here. Ah right. Okay. We're only having two or three up here anyway for the for the . And you're saying that one golf course I could be there for two or three weeks? Two to three weeks. We have to get off after three weeks. What is my earning potential in that golf course for that two or three weeks? Right well I'll go through that in detail so we're talking about that. Okay I'll show you the details. Well looking at that I wouldn't I'd like to leave it a wee while my options open because in the in the Sorry how d'ya how d'ya mean? Because I feel there's also a possibility that in erm private private er homes etcetera there's a big market erm for producing your private. And in Scotland just now there's an awful lot of erm private homes open now. Private residential you mean nursing Yes yes Well that that comes under the medical side. Yes well that again is a But you cannot do one you only do one you can't do both. Right okay. Erm so I think I would be between the golf and and erm the medical side. Right the medical side erm we are producing medical practice booklets all right. The only the only approach to residential homes and nursing homes is as advertisers in those medical books. Mhm. What do you think in your opinion or in your experience would the best avenue be for me to follow? I I I think you have an option in both. I mean the advertising's more expensive in that but er erm it depends on how good you think you are. Well it's You you know the golf Nine hundred pounds to me erm if it's an up market company anyway, erm nine hundred pounds for a year's advertising isn't that expensive. Well it's not really. Not when you compare it with what they might advertise in Golf Monthly or something like that where That's right. where they will be seen once and it's dumped. That's right I mean this card is carried with them and looked at all every every basically everybody will look at that erm because the good quality If I was to tell you that given a perfect world that has the highest earning potential of all our companies Well let's decide and look at that then. Yeah. Because er there are two there are two products. Yes. And remember we we resell every two years. Okay. And I take it erm the commission structure is just the same if I am continuing a contract on for the following year. Let me let me just let me get this pack out for you to take away. Is this is this an area where you think you might earn some money? Yes. All right we can give you the we can give you the platform. Yes. What we have to decide here is that you think is a is a I think is a very blue chip company. I've look at er your own presentations. It's a blue chip brochure that. And it's a blue chip brochure and I think obviously what I needing now after by the experience I've had with is to get behind a company who will give me the backing. Right. Well there's er one thing I can tell you right now that I would not personally be involved with a company that did not have erm a backing. There are All right. plenty of companies that er er this these er these can be printed by most printing companies what they don't have is the infrastructure and the backup er Yes. back in head office to do that with. Yes. And when we when we ask people to go out we it is er a total trust self employed but they are quote employed unquote. Because one things we one thing we don't have is people running other businesses alongside what we give them. So in other words if you're there for two to three weeks you're solidly for . There isn't er er there is no, people have gone because they've been doing other things other than er . But it's a full time commitment. As long as the earning capacity's there then get a hundred percent. Right. And that's all we ask because we'll give it a hundred percent. These are some samples for you to take away okay? But let me show you exactly what we I'll I'll bring in to being the list of businesses which we invite the golf club to forward to us. When the sales er marketing exec goes round to the golf club to sign them up in the contract with the contract we will print one or other or both. The contract will state whether they have both or not. All right? That means that if they only take the score card then you're in there fairly quickly do the advertising sales and come out and on to another site. So you don't expect there to be two to three weeks work there. If you're doing both then of course you're you're looking to offer the options to er Yeah if you can do it in a week all the better. Some advertisers go on both by the way. They want to be on both. Rod can I ask you a question? Yes sure. How many contracts you're basing them on two to three weeks. Let's say that erm I was these contracts within the first ten days. How many contracts am I going to get in a year? Well you work it out. It depends on how much time you want off. No how many contracts can I physically get if I want? You can have as many as you want. The the way the company operates is that we will assign you to a golf course. Mhm. We have in our contract that more or less we will get out after three weeks. You know what whatever the situation is we we done it by then, but er we we do they they are guaranteeing to supply us with an office and telephone facility for up to three weeks. Okay maximum. Maximum. Right. Erm or fifteen working days. I mean if there are two or three days off during that or one day off you take for instance, as long as it's fifteen working days. Erm and that is to do er one or the other or both. They might extend it if we have to do both. So will you will you So so you can if you took if you took one week off every three assignments Aha. all right? You can work out that over a period of time you would have somewhere in the region of fifteen assignments during the year guaranteed. We guarantee continuity of assignment. How many erm are already signed up at this present day for someone to follow on to now? I suppose I could only use the word tons. Tons of them right. So there there are basically a waiting list? Oh yes. Okay. On all of our products. We have six hundred assignments alone on the medical side. Because we're reselling. We haven't got to the reselling stage with these yet because we've been going about six months so the first resale is eighteen months away. Okay. But we've got so many new courses so worry about that er that doesn't present a problem. Erm the timing for golf courses. Obviously these cards Mhm. have got to be ready for the season starting? Not always. Er we we go in and sell the advertising if they er we'll take over as soon as the current supply runs out we we'll start offering er and supply it for them. That that doesn't present a problem to us. Okay. More so on schools because they're closed for Yeah that's right. the summer holidays, sometimes. But even that we're we have special arrangements for. We don't worry about the seasonal er aspects. Okay. They ju er you know people hear er the sales consultants doing courses right now erm you know find that that we'll print them and we'll probably print them in in by May although they'll have needed some cards. So that Do you give the customer unlimited supplies of these? Er it's agreed by the er Executive that's doing it. by the by the er s the sa sales the marketing executive and the golf club agreed a number. Okay. All right? We will know somewhere how much we need definitely To print to make sure of the print. Okay. Because the second year where no costs come out of the second year's er payment that's our that's where we make our money. Yes. The first year we Because the plates have already been set up etcetera etcetera . Absolutely yes. All the costs your commissions marketing executive's commission right. Now we ask er the club to supply er in between us signing them up for to to do the cards to them to the consultant erm er getting there getting there to do the assignment could be five or six months. We don't you know we've got clubs still waiting that we signed up last year. Mhm. Er we we make that quite plain to them all right that there might be a delay. Okay. All right until their number comes up as it were. Er in the meantime we we leave them erm er a list or a a sheet like or something similar to this, I haven't got one for at the moment, erm asking them to list out all those business with which they have some er may be some link up. You just have to look round a lot of trophy cabinets and you can see a lot of locally sponsored cups and trophies in there. Plus a lot a members have their own business. Plus plus yes and especially if if I went, we went to and I think it was er from the membership. Yes. I would imagine a lot of it could be. And these are very typical er advertisers and erm, whether you agree with it or not, these are. Whoever supplies the bar. Mhm. It may be this any of the suppliers. So there's a lot of scope a lot more scope on these to be more direct because they're quality ads and they're quality product. My particular er my particular club has about approximately thirty businessmen in various varying from double glazing kitchens Yes. What what a what prestige. who would love to be involved in their own club . Absolutely yes. Absolutely. So we've you know that's why I believe that this is this is gonna be our real launch pad for the future. This will be easy for me. Aha. Put that in quotes will you?. I I mean I well if you've got that confidence fine. And and when that when the when the assignment comes up when Ron is assigned to X club wherever that is erm that will be the sheet the sheet will be provided For me? for you to work on. Now one of the most important things that we've established erm is that er you need to sit down still with the secretary of the club and say right now you've got this list of businesses tell me more about them. Yes. It's not simple You should not just say, oh there's good I'll phone him now because you need some valuable information. So we make, but all that is is tau is is is Yes. directed on the course. So that's going to be very useful and you will get information about all these firms it could be that member has already been advised and he's willing. Could be little notes here already notified us that he's happy to go on He wants to go ahead with it. He wants to go ahead. Wonderful. That's how quickly you can you can speed up the operation. Erm now to to give you and there would be other details by the way er other er information concerning that assignment like how many cards we're printing like what the target is. The average target across all of our products is somewhere in the region of six thousand. But I'm going to show you a bit more detail for . First of all let's give you an idea of what the the prices are, we've talked about prices. Now we talk full pages most of the time. If we can get full pages fine but sometimes it's better for us to get these. It could be that there's more money avail Yes. Okay. You can you can work that out for yourself. But erm a full cover is nine hundred pounds full front cover. Now what happens there some some, particularly motor companies, will ask permission if they can put some cars in front of the club house if there's a photograph of the clubhouse and have them photographed. Mhm. That's considered to be a full page. Mhm. Full front cover. Now some clubs are quite happy for an ad to be there and for the golf club name to be there. It Yes. really depends on the choice of Yes. the individual. That and then front cover strip down the bottom here that one there is six hundred pounds. So that you can you can see there's a a some options here. My mention on the planner that the strips oops those strips, all these prices are identified here and when you take this away you can have a look at it. Okay? Erm and er there you will see how the the volume is made up. If you have filled all the spaces available those are the two totals. You're looking for five thousand three hundred and eighty And four thousand seven hundred and sixty. Let's have a look which is more important to you. Let's have a look at how your money is made up. Okay. Score card has always a target of four thousand pound. Now that's an internal target for us to work on and for you to to have fixed in your mind because everything above four thousand pound you will get forty five percent commission instead of thirty. Mhm. Yes. And that's made up of thirty percent and tha that's the total revenue you can get on, sell all that card and that's the total revenue you can get. Thirty percent of that equals that Mhm. the bonuses will be or the bonus will be that and your total on the card therefore is eighteen twenty one. Mhm. If you're doing the planner at the same time thirty percent and that's the that's the total amount you can get on a planner, but the target there is thirty two hundred. That target is really star is for the the bonus purposes. In other words after that we start paying another fifteen percent. What's the percentage for er both doing the score card and the course planner for a cou er a golf course? Well you would treat them as a separate entity. You you mean in terms of bonus or? No what is the percentage-wise of taking both er the the golf course when both done ? I I I can't answer that I really don't know. Because it's there's if I'm there for three weeks and they only want a score card done then my potential earnings er total earnings are that but I'm there anyway so if I'm getting both of them done then I can earn a lot more money. Oh you can earn a lot more money certainly. But you'll you'll if you're only doing the card you'll do that much quicker . Yes and then And then you're straight on to the next job . I'd be out of the door quicker. You'd be out of the door quicker. So it's it is swings and roundabouts there. Yes. If you're doing both then that's your total income and if you did that in three weeks I would think you'd be very happy with that. Oh yes. Er That's a thousand pound or plus a week. Yep. Erm And I believe that with with your background and knowledge then sure that that's achievable. I wouldn't I would like to think I could . Because if that if you had if you had a perfect year it is that. Mhm. Then of course if you want to take time off and things like that. I'm being honest er Rod if I can earn myself twenty five thirty thousand I'm not I'm not looking for you know fortunes. I'm looking for a decent income with the right company. Right well you twenty five thousand a year is about the minimum the company er you wouldn't be doing the job if you were below that. I mean net I mean net. I tax Okay right . In that case you're looking for thirty five thirty six thousand which would be mister average in our company. Right okay. I don't want to be mister average so we'll go for the fifty five. We'll go for the fifty five. Well if you have that attitude then you'll do it. We'll go for it. All right. Okay well that's erm every assignment to you you always have and this is being this had been updated we haven't got the new one yet but you will have what we call a blank. And you will go around er using this to show people well I've sold that and that's mister so and so or that's such and such business that's gone so that you can show people that you've actually sold these. In other words that's your work horse. Can I can I honestly make a suggestion? I mean there's Well if it's to do with anything you've seen here please make it in the right quarters not at me . No the suggestion is we're in the golf club and we're doing a planner we're not doing a score card Yes. and I know it's not erm your business to be doing tee markers Plea please can I ask you if you bring in any other ideas of business you'll be considered to be No I'm talking about the company doing it. Yeah yeah but forget it for now. Right okay. They are not of any interest to us. They are they do not they're not printed. Mhm. But they would be printed. Yeah but they're not they're not part of our range now. Because if you start getting if you get bogged down with discussing people about other products they'll think you're either gonna be doing them Okay. as a side It's some once as a customer you can do it later stage. All right. Because you start talking too many other businesses, and this is a bit of advice for you Mhm. if you start talking any other business about wha except what you're doing there then they'll think that you're doing that as an as a side. And they'll take they'll take everything away from you no messing around. are very strict on that. Oh no no no no there are no intentions whatsoever the only thought was that er if you're into that type of advertising there's another eighteen spaces for the company. Yeah. We're not into that advertising. There are plenty of other companies doing that. Is there? But we are only interested in this particular product. Right okay . Okay . This is this is fairly new to us we bought the company because it was doing exactly what we were doing on other products. Yes. But we are not interested at this stage in tee markers and if you keep mentioning them Ron they'll think hello Well could could you tell me er how many Sorry that's just a bit of advice That's that's no problem I thought it was just erm a thought for yourself maybe you could give out . Oh oh they they will have in fact the guy who's who owned this company who's now general manager of the company within the group Mhm. erm has been has had his erm er his feelers out for all sorts of advertising. Because even tee markers is not the end of the story. Where is the golf company based? There're all based at head office. Okay. But you work from the clients premises at all at all times. Will that be in Scotland? Well it's in it it we have enough assignments up here to consider that that's probably right. But we've just had somebody from Glasgow go down to do my own course in Humberside. Aha. Now that was er er more or less a favour to me. Aha. But er what we say is that we will pay thirty percent up to a hundred miles away from home Aha. okay above that we will pay thirty five percent. And that's one way by the way not a fifty mile round trip and all we say to everybody whichever company they go into, we say to everybody who sits in your position there Can I refuse an assignment then? You can discuss an assignment. Okay. But if that's your only opportunity to earn money that week Obviously then I'm going to take that or that time, you'll take it. Yes. Erm the guy down who's just done my my club earned himself eighteen hundred pound in one week and he paid about a hundred a twenty quid out for bed and breakfast. And probably forty pounds worth of of petrol there and back. So his expenses are his own. Aha. Yes. But if we were to send people consistently Glasgow to Humberside I don't think we'd have them very long. And there are enough golf courses up in Scotland. Yes. And that that guy has just been transferred to another group so you know we're now one short well in fact we're three or four short up in Scotland so. How many people er in this particular erm assignment would you have in Scotland, just the one off? Aha. At the moment. That's why I'm very keen about to get about four up here because that means at the moment we've got several several golf clubs waiting. Okay. Quite a number in fact. Okay. Because this is a the hive of the golf club industry. So those are the if you like the financial details and any any questions you have about that then er No I'm I'm very happy with In terms of paying commissions we pay them all the following week. I think John will have told you that. And certainly we have kept the amou the amount of administration down to a bear minimum if I can show you. We have the same contract for all of our products whichever company the only difference is that they're slightly colour coded. If you're colour blind tough. Yes. All right they're colour coded. Er there's not a one there yet. And what we in fact the the reason we tell people everything on the phone Ron is that there are some things that pen I did have one here, Here you go. that's all right no I've got one over here somewhere It's some day it's turned out. Wow I think we'll get that on the tape recorder. The things that we make sure people know before we get there is the price all right, I've already mentioned that. The fact that we need a thirty five percent deposit cheque. The fact that er we take the balance of the first year's payment through a banker's order. Mhm. If you don't tell them about the deposit cheque if you don't tell them about the banker's order they will say, Well just a minute Ron you didn't tell me that on the phone. I don't deal with I like the idea of thirty five percent up front and Well well that's the only way we can pay you your money then the following week. Mhm. Because in fact when you go to a client you're picking up your own deposit cheque. It will be made out to us and we pay you the following week. Is this a two year contract? It is and wherever you quote nine hundred pound you quote them nine hundred pound per year Per annum. for a minimum of two years. Okay. Even though the cards are reprinted every year it's it's still So you really need some sound businesses you don't need your You don't need your penny No. You will not get your local er plumber er on these. You're looking for high fliers and even car firms can go bust the second year . track record So you have to tell people all about. Hello I wonder if you'd mind asking him to wait and I'll er be with him in about ten minutes. Oh can you offer him a coffee? Please thank you. Right. Yep you need some sound businesses Yes. there's no doubt about it. Erm and they will want the prestige of being on the golf club and quite honestly, the golf club card, and quite honestly so does the golf club want Yes. prestigious. That's why their list will be erm if you like pre-vetoed you know. They have they have the right of veto on whoever goes on there. However it's in their interests of course to allow you to get on and do your job. Mhm. But if you don't tell them about things like banker's order about the signature, particularly if two s two erm signatures are wanted on the cheque and the banker's order, if the other guy's not there you don't go round until he's available. Of course. If you've left that contract with them you'd never see it again. The other aspects of erm that's the contract you've already got the contract and the cheque. The other thing that we want from the client advertising client to make it a full deal so that we can pay you the thirty thirty percent commission is copy. Now this is the only product we have where it's full four colour. Mhm. So it's very important to know before you go round if if they've got copy. You say that I need to discuss copy when I've got there if you've got copy if they've had full colour before then they will have bromides and separations and things like Yes. that. They will probably be using an agency. Mhm. And at the training school Ron they will tell you exactly how we deal with those. Yes okay. There is a form which once again will exp be explained at the er on the training course. Yes. But that's the form. If they've never advertised before which is unlikely if we're going for high fli you know high flier Yes. companies, that's the space down there. But I'm not going to er sit here teach you or show you how to do that because that's the training course responsibility. This is probably the most important form. And that is the commission form. All right. We c there once again all of these forms are colour coded, there's your one. All right so you can see that they're the same form. Advertising position the advertiser this will be the golf club that will be the town full and approved contract of what I've just described. There are a number of companies that we have across our erm all of our products which are what we call approved. Mhm. And in fact you will have seen on those cards over there a BUPA hospital. Mhm. Those are covered by a special arrangement where we don't have to collect a cheque we don't have a banker's order but it's done through a erm a company invoice Yes. All right. The difference there is instead of the cheque and the banker's order you have to pick up an official order from the BUPA hospital. Yes. And BUPA hospitals, although they're very common of course on the medical side are are going to be obviously popular on the golf club side. Mm. They're going to be popular on the golf club? Oh yes. There's one if you pick up one there I think one of those cards there has got one on the planner and one on the erm Oh yes I see yes yes. One thing about advertising Ron is er is the danger of prejudging who will and who will not come into our product. And we've we've proven that er some people have said, Oh well he won't come on he can't either afford it or he doesn't want to. And we've turned it round. I've found that many times in sales . Okay now erm the only question mark we have at the moment Ron is the car. Question mark for me or the car? Well if you can give me some reassurance Oh no no problem. Okay. I mean Right because I have to put that on my notes you see and I I the car I had before I gave up the company car was a Mercedes Sports S L Oh right. But I'm not to obviously going to buy a Mercedes Sports S L necessarily at this stage. Yes. All we all we say we need Is a reasonable I a bit worried about my pen. Okay yeah. Erm right well when you've got on your form here on your er you need to give a couple of week's notice . Well what what I'm looking for there Rod obviously is a response to this letter I have sent to . If they don't respond to me in the next forty eight hours I'm going to send them a second letter er tel . Basically what I am doing is I want them to reply. I have only written the truth in my letter to them. They have got to respond to it. All right. Er and if I mean what happens if they they give you everything you want and er No. No I will not want for this company again. All right. I am out of. Doesn't matter what Well the way you've approached it there I guess you're not going to be er sales director It's not it's not the point of the money it's the fact is that they've lied to me erm and really I want =em . What actually happened was my a friend of mine or really was a friend of mine for a short time, he he was in the company when I joined, and er after two months he told me he was leaving. And I said why are you leaving? Because I hadn't experienced all this Mhm. and he's Ron you're going to experience a lot of things that you're not going be happy about he says but I'll let you find out for yourself. Well may be you shouldn't have done if he was a friend . So he left. Suddenly he got another job in the golf industry and he left. And when he he was told to bring in his car the next day and his company stock. He says no problem. He went down to his car and down to his company stock and he says now what the money's due to me you'll get them in the post. And he says they told him to get out the building Mhm. and give him a rough time and he was the longest serving rep with . Well of course I mean the the point there is you get you get your money first before you hand over your car and the stock. Right. Now this is what happened. They sent him away and he's waited four months and he has not had a penny. He's written to them numerous times and they say what money. All right. So he is now in a position he can either take them to court or he's forgetting it. Because he's still in the golf industry he's forgetting it. Now it's something like eighteen hundred pounds. Now what I want to do is I want them to respond first. If they don't respond I will say the next letter will be, okay I am now resigning and your car and your stock won't be returned to you er but I'm holding them in lieu. Yes okay towards money due to me. What but what what we're talking about timing here because we won't we won't er we won't for ever and ever you see . Okay. Can I say definite I'd be quite happy to start within the next four weeks. Er four weeks from now. Or Well is that too far away? Well let me just er just check on when the the course is. the course is. Well let's say I'd be ready for your for your next course if it's not till . Okay well there's a course running next week so we know that's out. The next one is the fourteenth of February. Right. I'd be happy going the fourteenth of February . Okay but that if you delay it's two weeks. Because they're held every two weeks here, whereas the rest of the companies are every week. So you get the fourteenth and then the following one is the twenty eighth February? Yes. And this is now well . Well can I say can I say definitely Rod I will I will go on if accepted on the twenty eighth of February. Can I say that for definite? All right. Now Just in case they hold me to a four week I can't see it. I can't see it myself. I would be happier to do twenty eighth and bring you back Yes. rather than the fourteenth. Can I say We'll give you the fourteenth and the twenty eighth the company would be concerned. Well let's say the twenty eighth and if I can get into fourteenth Now we provide all this information on trust. I can tell you right now that there are plenty of indi I I'm I'm going to say this up front, there are plenty of individuals who've taken the information away and tried to do it themselves. I I say it to all whoever comes in here and they're Erm there're in there're in there're in Can I say something to that question. Er a person's always as good as the team behind him Right. and you need a team. To do this properly you need a team. Oh absolutely. And I'm quite happy to earn the money that you offered or which is Okay earnable. Oh very earnable. Yes. Well I'm I'm happy with that . Right well let's er let me get this out of the way so I don't hand back, that's all yours to take away all right? Okay now there's some information for you to just er I really do need a pen and I don't know where I've left it. Today's date is the Twenty fifth. twenty fifth. Now the Monday the twenty eighth of February now on Friday Friday the twenty fifth you will need to phone in okay. If you read this end to end Ron I'd be very grateful but let me just point out to you we've agreed twenty eighth, if you bring it forward great. Okay. Erm if you you will not be able to put it back after that date. They they'll they'll er consider that you're not interested. On the twenty fifth please phone in just to firm up everything. Your training programme if you just er look at read this okay. Okay. Read right the way through all this and it will tell you exactly what will be needed. And er the Fern or the hotel is there. Okay. I take it you book me into that hotel. Well if you read that it'll tell you exactly what will happen. Erm we will pay we will pick up the tab for your hotel. Okay. All right? And we will pay all your travel costs there and back. Okay. I just need you to sign there's a copy here for your info just need you to sign to say that you understand that. Want your pen back now don't you? I'll have to go and get a pen . I'll leave you this one. No no it's all right. I know now where I've got one. Now I am my birth is Ronald but I am know As Ron. and always has been by Ron . Okay. We've got Ron down here you see. I don't like the name Ronald. Okay that's your copy. Right Rod thank you for the opportunity. Okay well I've got one other thing to do and that is to take a photograph. Okay you moved out of my I can only do four feet on this one so er Right okay. Right. You're allowed to smile. Great thank you. Can you send me a copy of that? Er all this will be confirmed in writing. No you won't want a copy of that photograph let me tell you. Er it'll all be confirmed in writing and if come forward to the fourteenth they'll love that. Erm right so what you're saying to me then basically is that er as long as my references are acceptable Yep and etcetera er I can be on that course? Yes. We've we we put that in writing, subject to satisfactory references erm er we will look forward to seeing you on the twenty eighth. What's your position Rod? What's your position in I'm recruitment officer. For the the group? Yep. Well it was a pleasure meeting you. And you. Okay. Enjoyed er our discussions and er we'll take it from there. Okay thanks Rod. Thanks very much. Okay good bye. Ta sorry I had to drag you out here on this weather. Come in. Doctor, can you change my ? There you go, thank you. Thank you very much. Dr because for all that , she says well I don't know what'll happen. I says well you'll need to cancel it because they send an appointment to that person. We will be charged for it, even if they don't attend. That's right, that's what I thought. So I've asked her just to phone cancel it out, and that should just be the end of it. And that's, that's it, okay. Right , that's great Jean, thanks. Good morning . Good morning. Well young sir what can we do for you today? I was going get an employed Doctor. Er thought I might ask you while I'm here about Ah. how my blood tests went and er Blood tests. Er labs have got it. Erm I'm attending this Doctor , I go back at the end of the . Blood tests seem to have been alright, yeah, Oh aye . Good, that's good John. Yeah. Mhm. Er now he wants you to stay on your tablets Aye. just the same as before. Aye well, while I'm here could I get another supply because Yes. actually I, the dose that I had to take, I cut them down to see how it would go but, I must admit, I suffered from it Doctor, Mhm. it didn't do me any good, you know. U we went That's right, that's right. And the other thing was the Brekanil Pardon? Brekanil was the other thing he wanted you to have. It's the inhaler. The puffer thing. Oh I, oh I see. Fair eno oh well. Aye. There we are . And I cannae, cannae sleep lying down horizontally, I've got to kind of you know kind of Right. Propped up a bit. propped up. Doctor , you know. Now that's, that's that Anything let you get a wee bit of a sleep. Just if you take this just about an hour before er bedtime. Oh is this something? Just something to let you get over into a nice easy sleep, John. Right Doctor, fair enough. Save you getting any wheezing during the night. There we are John, that'll keep things right. Er Thank you Doctor erm are you due an insurance line today? Yes, I am Doctor. Er if you actually date it from yesterday? Mhm sure, Is that possible as well? sure. It being the holiday. Aye. Er chesty in the morning then, bit chesty at night you know? That's right, it's that's it. There you are young John. Right. thanks very much. Okay John. Cheerio now. Cheerio. Those people who have the record sheets from last week, ten, ten people that are doing work for the British National Corpus. Erm, could you just put your hands up if you're doing recording for Corpus. One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, who's the tenth? You're all sharing so who's, who's got their partners ? We've got all partners here So, who hasn't got their partner here? So only nine people with their hands up. Yeah, Jill, erm, There're going to be ten of you. Erm, are you happily doing it? Yes. I've got some more of these sheets if anybody wants them There are a lot of them on my door, and not very many of them are taken away. Mm. Erm, so, if they are on my door. They've been on my door since late Yes. If you want more of these difficult. Really got to define what mm. actual and description from different you know different conversations to one complication. Yes, I'm just about to give you an assignment sheet, those ten people. Erm, and actually formalize the assignment, so people will see what you've got to do, if the others will bear with me for a minute or two. But before I give you the assignment sheet, erm, how are you getting on? Are there any, erm, unforeseen, erm, problems? Yeah It's more difficult than I thought actually. About background, like with most people, there's always something on in the background conversations like the radio, T V and it muffles it all out. So. Got to try and talk without the T V on. So th the problems were acoustics, Yeah. rather than problems with remem remembering the tape recorder which comes out, it Yeah. actually so don't let's feel you haven't coped. Any other problems? Has, has anybody No. No. How do you all like, if you tell people, you know, without causing offence, do you normally tell people after you've done it? Yeah. Yeah. And no doubt, everyone said fine. Has it been No. by the time you've taped something, it's done. Few. Helen. I'm still on my first one, actually Tape one of two. Two. Got one. One, yes, right. So you will obviously erm, if you can, try and do a bit more, because this time next week we're into back. Next Friday morning, I think you were all here when we were planning this, but just to remind you, next Friday morning, erm, somebody else is coming from the team in Harlow. I don't know if it will be the same person. To talk about transcription, and we will run that on a workshop basis, I hope. I'll try and look to sort of student access erm, total theoretical will have, erm, some of your own transcripts by then. Erm, so could you all, including those people who aren't working on this project, bring erm, one of your tapes, because you're all taping the assignment, anyway. You may not have got round to doing it yet, but bring something next week. A a tape, and B a short piece of transcription. It may not be the bit that you're going to eventually use for your assignment, because you're a bit unsure taped up your assignment, but bring a short transcription, at least one side of A four, because if you do that, you will, if you've given yourself a chance of actually trying it out, you will begin to see the problems and and the whole thing will be much more interesting and more rewardable. If I'm boring this time, you haven't tried it, but if you, if you can do it then erm, it'll be a really interesting session, of sort of getting together in groups and discussing the problems and sorting ways out of problems. So let's be free at least one tape erm, at least, at least one side based on the tape. And have your tape wound to the place that you've transcribed, so that, if necessary you will be ready to replay the bit that you can't transcribe it, to the others, or to one of us, erm, to explain why you can't do it. Erm, we won't say too much about transcription systems at the moment, erm, just do, do it according to what you think are the most important bits to get down onto paper. When you're trying to write down speech, you can see that there are all sorts of problems initially, of how much you write down. And, all of you will probably make different choices. Do you write down, for example, the pauses, and if you write the pauses, do you try and write how long they are? And what, erm, decided you to use the pauses. Do you try and write down hesitations? And if so, how do you write them down, what, what, how do you spell a hesitation? The ers and the erms. How do you spell that ? Do you want spelling for all hesi hesitations,ju ju ju just to show that somebody's hesitated? Or do you want to show exactly how they've hesitated? All these sorts of things are going to be the sorts of things that we'll bring up in discussion, but you won't realize what the problems are until you tried doing it. Today we're going to try Has anybody actually found writing it all out because as soon as you do, you'll be faced with hundreds of choices. Do you just do it like a school dictation in French, writing down the words, with conventional punctuation. Full stops at the end. Or do you try and put in all these extra things like pauses, hesitations, intonation, rhythm, stress you can go on, getting so detailed, that it, as St Steve said last week, you can spend sort of half an hour on half a sentence, if you put it, if you try to put in everything. That's obviously unprincipled. So you got the whole spectrum of, or if you're just doing it like French dictation, it won't, if words tend to just, to just be spoken language, right through to an immensely detailed erm, attempts to put everything down, including tone of the voice, and all these other ones which are extremely difficult to I think you noticed that I was standing looking at the transcriptions near each team. And you listen to the voices. If you read the transcription first, there is only a very small proportion of the actual information get right to the . Erm, totally missing, really is the voice quality, which is a, one of the main ways in which we judge somebody's character, isn't it? And, so would you want to put some more of that in, and erm all these, all these things, as I've said, will help you to, to speak. So, everybody you're looking at. Mm. Sorry, what about, erm, so people have been taping,th actually it's ten people. Mm Erm, you've apparent problems of lack of clarity, well that's absolutely normal erm, but they've built into the system. Erm, what, erm, also you haven't had a problem with being rejected. Have, have you had a problem of remembering to turn it on, remembering the batteries Mm. It's quite difficult to tell how much tape's gone, if you got that much tape left, you think you can get more conversation on and you can't. It's difficult to judge the especially when the person that you for by someone just popping round and picking something up and they stay for ages,and they didn't know I was taping and then something clicked up in the middle of it. But I mean I lost half the conversation, they wondered what was going on. Yeah. Yes, it would have been quite useful to have given that tape as some indication on that little diagram on the tape recorder, about a minute or, they're all standard tape recorders, how much measure, how much is it in terms of time, a minute of your tape is ten minutes And also of course, a, a, a problem that you can't solve is, you never know in advance how long a conversation's going to be. Can you? So you may think you've half a tape left, which is, should be Fifteen minutes. No, forty five minutes. Forty five each side. Erm, even if you know how much time you've got left, you never how long they're going to talk for. I think they're bound to respond to that, I mean, as you turn it over and keep going on. So that's cer certainly a problem. Any other things that we can, perhaps solve? So it's easier than you said it's more difficult than if you want to get clear recordings. Yeah, somebody said that, it's alright now, though. That's, well, that's good, well, there aren't any other problems that we need to talk about now. Erm, good. got something Was it, were you there when erm, Steve was saying that he would leave behind with me a recorder's programme. No. Erm, tell me if I'm repeating it, because I have said it to a couple of other groups I know, especially the Wednesday group. So tell me if I've told you this before. That he did leave behind a after lunch, when you, after you'd gone, a couple of very useful disks. One was the disk erm, which actually held about erm, three hours' worth of conversations straight from the corpus er banking, er composition. So that we have got a disk which we can put into the machines down there in the computer room, a whole lot of transcriptions that they've already made. They are all based round one person, one speaker, somebody called Fred . He lives in Croydon, erm, he's old, so we've got quite a lot of conversation. I think he's seventy five, he's retired. But you got conversation with him and his family two generations of his family at his house perhaps in Croydon. Erm, with his brother I think from Hemel Hempstead, erm, and a lot of pub conversations, in a pub called The Lion in Croydon, with erm, I think it must be an ex-girlfriend. It's quite suggestive kind of conversations, especially for a seventy five year old. Quite suggestive . And, and, it's all very very spontaneous and really quite quite nicely done. Erm, when I really learnt to use this myself, in the computer room go along there for, half an hour one Friday, and have a look at it, because you might, in your second assignment possibly like to, to use this data in some way. Look at it. I've got transcriptions, I've got printouts as well. Erm, but use it in order to look at ready made conversations in order to collect . So you can get these conversations up on computer screen, all of them, and you can pick them out . Well, that doesn't sound too exciting, because basically you're ending up with transcripts, well, ready made transcripts. Erm, but as I say it's a good thing that you're doing yourselves. Just more of the same. The interest on this, is that he also left a second disk. And that is, now did he mention that or didn't he, or did I because . Do you know what ? No. No. Right, well, this is the interesting thing, in a way, that bring, you might, very well like to go and play with them in the computer room. Some time, anyway,set my work. Erm, you, this is the second program, it's relative with the conversations, and relative with the recording as well. Well it can access all the words, er, on the disks. So if you wanted to look for example, at hesitations, and try to do an analysis of where he had hesitated and why he hesitated, who hesitates more than others. Just to take an example. You type it on your computer, erm, say er, or erm, or other hesitation markers, that you will predict will mark hesitation, and on your scr you type this on the keyboard, and on your screen, you will get a whole list of places where this is used with the beginning bit of the sentence, and the end bit of the sentence, and all the ers will be listed down the middle of the screen, with the line numbers, here, so you can check back to where it comes from. So that you may find that all the hesitations are by women, or most of them by women, or most of them are in the pub, or most of them are a after ten at night, or ar you know, you can look at the context in which certain words, certain conversational gambits that some of them use. And it's a very quick and very interesting,by comparing data and looking at what you've got. Because obviously you could do this by hand, you could do it by it took ages and could be very boring. You can get it spaced up on the screen, and you can print it out. Erm, I don't know whether you can think of any other words that would be use useful but erm, if you weren't looking at hesitations, you might look at erm, Perhaps use the first names and put out the meaning of the first names of the Yes, that would be quite interesting, wouldn't it, when we talked about some forms of address. Wait, I've got an instant who's taking part in the conversations and you could type in the first names of those people and then again you'll get back some why the use of the first name. Which would surround the context and you'd be able to see when people, the real first names. Erm, perhaps those aren't very of examples, but, I think you can see, that there are enormous scope for erm, looking at a large amount of language. They're very economical, and very interesting way of . So as I say,when I've got erm, actually to know how these reference disks work, then I'll be able to use them and talk. We will then look at thousand and one bits and see what effect and follow that up. And next year's student, or even next term's, perhaps, depending on how quick you do it, your conversations, what you're doing now, once they're transcribed and put onto disk would be very interesting, because we'll have a disk from our St Mary's students, transcribed, because Steve promised he would get them all transcribed. And they would go on disk And but he can get them on to a disk. Oh, God, don't want mine on a disk. Well,if you don't want them on, that's the whole problems of obviously saying, erm, in fact, we don't, if we don't want them on a disk at all, we don't have to have them. But I think this would be a very useful, erm, useful thing, because we'll have all your conversations on a disk and we'll be able to record and explain too, looking at typical seminars erm, and all the other contexts and situations that you've recorded. Don't forget that when it's transcribed, when it's professionally transcribed, all the names will be changed, so you'll all be anonymous. That's part of the system. They, they shouldn't be erm, identifiable, because the names and the addresses, telephone numbers, anything that helps you to identify an individual, will be changed. Erm, but, but think that out, because the, your reaction then was interesting. Perhaps in a way, if you feel that it's going to be too revealing to have this Don't they keep We, we needn't do it, it just seems to me that it would be Like with the names do they the personal? Names were changed,to protect the innocent. Yeah, all the names would be changed, all the, all the names will be changed, automatically. He said that that's part of the transcription system. So in fact, erm, on the disk that we've already got Fred isn't really Fred it's Char it's a substituted name. Unless you name drop in the conversation, that's the only thing that might be a bit revealing. Mm. What do you mean, if you refer to somebody? Yeah. Well, that would also be changed. Oh, really All, all proper names with capital letters, would be changed for Oh, right. Erm, would there be anything else on your tapes that might give the game away? Yes. Well, think about that. This obviously isn't going to come up as an issue for quite a long time, since transcribing this'll be a long time. But I think what, perhaps the, the best thing to do is when the transcriptions come back, and this may not be till the summer because it is a very long long process, when they come back, they will all go back to the person who made them ten people. And if you don't want to be put onto list, censored, because obviously, that's very important to what would happen there if you want it preserved. But if you don't want it preserved, I think it would be so nice to have in college, if only for next year's students, and you also would be around for the next two years, I mean if you're doing, if you're doing a language erm, option next year,or even a language recitation erm, this would be quite nice material to use for that. Cos you will be around to, to, to make use of it at home. Anyway, so much for that Assignment sheet I'll give this to all of you, because I wouldn't, I don't want to be unfair. If you think that this assignment is, is sort of preferable to the ones that you've been looking, you could all choose this one, you'll have to do some recording like the others on your own machines, but you could have we still got to do two thousand ? No, hang on, no hang on. No, I'll change the length for those people who are doing a lot of recording. And there's more transcribing. So listen very carefully. Listen, listen very carefully shh, because this is important to get right, erm, because the assign because the assignments are part of your degree mark, and have to go to the external examiner, and has to be monitored etcetera etcetera etcetera, it's all quite formal and so we do need to get this right. I, I've got to have something from you ten people, you ten recording people because, because it's reasonably erm, represented, like, I can't give it, in other words I can't give you a chance to explain this as much as I would like to, because it's not fair on the other people. And it's also, but not fair on you or me, because I felt, the guilty, you know, we won't be, we all do it. There won't be any depreciation. Some people won't do anything less than the others. I've got to have something that I can mark, to the representative marks that show your, your ability and how much you've put into it. Erm, so, supposing you're all doing this. You don't have to, but supposing you all choose this. Let's put two columns. The British National Corpus those ten people were doing British National Corpus and the others. I'll write down any differences on here and make sure you write them down at the end. Transcription this project is based on a study of recording two, that wouldn't apply to all of you, should involve recording itself, audio cassette. The others can them from that. You can't, because you are doing audio cassettes for the erm, audio . And your transcription of two to three set of minutes of talk. Erm, a transcription two to three minutes, you can do a short transcription. The Corpus people, you're going to spend much more time doing on the art of transcribing. So you'll have five minutes to do some. He's put at least five minutes, five minutes plus. At least five minutes of transcription, erm, which you'll learn to do next week on Friday. Now I'll put a line to do a transcription transcription goes in an appendix, put your transcription at the back of your work, in according to Appendix A and number the lines, so that you can refer to them in the body or wherever. You'll find ten as an example of whatever. Temptations are particularly evident in lines sixteen to seventeen etcetera. It saves a lot of time to change numbers. You should follow your transcription with an exclamation if used to indicate stress intonation, pauses, local effects etcetera etcetera etcetera. Er, in other words a key. So everybody put in a general key. A transcription is a key. And this explains what you'll do next week. Don't worry about the key because that's just what erm,discussing, next time. if you go into appendix as well. Yes, let's call between appendix two, just to make it absolutely cut and dried. Right, Appendix A transcription and Appendix B was . Erm, you can use ordinary spelling, you probably will use ordinary spelling, or phonetic transcription, this may be for short sections. That's entirely optional, we'll talk again about that next week. a transcription you remember last year, we had about one week on phonetics, and John , some people came to the John talk, where we didn't really talk about phonetics script there. Phonetic script is something that people usually, fills people with horror, so don't worry about it. Some people, there are always a few people who, who love it. Who like playing with it. But there are very few, so that's optional. It is very useful, if you're trying to write down something like accent, say northern accent, would be, but would sound in words like cook,there's no way of really doing that unless you use phonetic transcription. But, erm, you may not, you may not want to do that. Erm, but so give, give a brief note to justify your choice, and use transcripts or you haven't because that's at the end of your . That's, that's the next . Introduction your introduction should explain briefly why you chose to analyze this particular sample. You people, the Corpus people will have a large sample by then, you'll have a lot to choose from. So just put a paragraph in, saying why you've chosen this particular bit, and in fact, all of you can do that. The introduction will be same for all of you. Explaining your choice this conversation especially interesting. Erm, do a general account of recording material indicating its source and giving background information. But when I say recording material, I just mean one conversation that you're, you're transcribing. If you were to do, if any of your transcripts in lots of little bits. No. So I just want two, two to do two comparing tape. Got two conversations of different people but they They vary in interest Yeah. Okay. Right, don't don't make it too bitty. I'm just thinking if you did lots and lots of little bits, I think you'll find it quite difficult to make the rest of it coherent. If you've got something that's crying out in comparison about two labourers or two women or whatever. Yes. But that would be two and a half minutes each, roughly. Between two and three Erm, so, this material, whether it's one longer bit, or two shorter bits, it's up over there. Do you have any indication of its source, and say something about the background of people. What kind of things will be important for the background to mention it do you think? Age. Age. The relationship with them. Relationship. The setting Mm. In fact, all those, yes, all those, I did briefly mention all those things on the diagram er that we had before. You could do this, erm,you could photocopy Introductions introductions. Source, the background The background information. These things here, could be, you could photocopy these, the diagram that you've all got. Erm, maybe photocopy it a bit smaller. So that you've got an A four size. Or even, even try to get perhaps, piece, a piece of A three paper. I'm just trying to think of a clearer economical way of putting it. Perhaps a double size piece of paper you can fold in your and then put the diagram in the middle, photocopy it, and stick it on, glue it on, the diagram. And then you could put arrows round the outside, for comments that you might conversation, erm, conversation A and B, if you're doing two. Then you would need two of the , two of these sheets if you were doing two conversations, but only one if you've done one. And then say, for example, the thing over here was, something like bystanders, wasn't it, on the left hand side. So you could just all out in rhyming prose which takes a long time. A lot clearer could be erm, let's say bystanders,bystanders three, two of whom were half listening. Erm, just a short note, if you see the big lot of over there, and er, I think it would have been probably easier trying to describing it. Is that Appendix C? Erm, well I put it at the . Yeah. You it's in the introduction here. You could have an instruction full details of the situation are given in Appendix C. Or you could put it into your introduction depending on which way you feel it is to handle. So, is that clear? Introduction, why you've chosen to, to analyze this sample, and what is a source on the background information. Indicate the focus of interest in the approach you intend to take. I'll come back to that. . Next, the body of your essay. Analyze your material by means of selected description of interesting and significant features of material transcribed. With reference if necessary to features, in the rest transcribe it. Recording. And conclusion, comment on the insights of your final analysis. The body, shall I say. The other people who are two thousand words. And follow this thing about the body in your essay. So that you want to say exactly what is interesting and significant to you too. So you pick up these things. Once you've done this, pick out the things that you think are significant. The bystanders may not be significant. There may be two bystanders, but they really, you don't think they made any particular difference to the way the conversation went, so you might pick out relationships in general, or topic, or something else, but pick out the things that you think being significant in the conversation, and describe them. In some detail, because you've got two to do it I think that's all. And then, conclude by what have you learnt about the talk,make sure the and then the appendix should include your transcription which a key. There's one not, not in there, not for example, the book you've already got tells you transcription and submit your tape round to the position at which your transcription two thousand words. So really Harlow do not do Corpus or at least were not aware of it. If you are doing a lot of work reports, you're going to do a longer transcription, and the transcription's going to , cos you've got to make sure that your transcription's according to the basis of consistent in its way around. It's useable by it's going to go into the, the archives for public consumption. So the trade lock for this extra transcription is if you do more than, or if you do a lot, erm do the same introduction, but your essay, the body of your essay, erm, can be very short, the body of your essay, erm, about one paragraph only, you're just going to need to do something quite short, and your conclusion on the insights is what, is what is going to be important . Okay, so that's, that's short. The main body of yo the work wo with Corpus will be doing more of the transcription and linking up with what insights have been found about transcribing. Any facts about transcribing finished . And the whole thing can be shorter, one thousand . I don't think you should have so much, and I'm not going to count, so I'm not going You'll obviously want to make it, you don't want to make it too short you're going to have enough words to get yourself a good mark. So you can wr do more transcribing. Even if you're doing more recording, more transcribing,nicely. The writing will have a different focus. Insights about the, the actual recording and transcribing. Transcribing . Erm,fact clear. Yes. in saying, erm, we in fact, you know, backup our transcription. Erm, Mm. Yes, the more you can do, the better it gets. Yes, do use, you need a bibliography, all of you need a bibliography so you can make comparisons what other people have found, so to read round before you do but erm If you balance, tape recordering , but, but you notice one particular piece that you would rather do an essay on rather than that bit there. Can you do the other one? If takes it to transcribe it, can we still write the essay? Rather than do this. You know what I mean? Well, yes. Do the essay on the left, Yeah. to be transcribed on the right. Even though? Erm, I think it would be a pity if you did that, because we got all this, you know, equipment and stuff, if you don't, why do you think it might be ? Transcription gonna take ages to type. Erm, right. days. No, I don't think it'll take days. Because conversations are usually quite slow, and to, and there will be a lot of pauses It is difficult to guess how much transcription is needed. I think maybe what I'm going to do with transcriptions again. Cover the variations in speed, I'm going to try and define it in pages rather than speed, because finding it difficult is speed,whereas if you got a sl a slow speaker there are longer pauses and hesitations. This is going to be a lot more erm, let's call it two pages and five pages. A four pages. Erm, and I've no idea the time Let's change it to pages. Because, it is, I think that's much fairer than doing minutes, cos you still get the Do you mean pages as in both sides, or sides? Sides, sides. Right. So there are sides. Sides, two sides. So would it very boring just to go through this again?confusion. I'll just go through this again, because it's, you know, two different groups. Who's not doing this? Who's not doing the Corpus? Two thousand words, you can use video if you want to. That's audio. You can tape it off the television or the radio for that. That's if you want to Your transcription is shorter, cos they're two sides. Your key is the same. You do your introduction at the back, with why you've chosen this as background. Why you've chosen this bit, and what is the background. And then you just follow through with the introduction at the end. Corpus books, do also essays, many use audio, your transcription is long, let's see either side. Yes, it's the whole thing, I think he'd Yeah. The introduction, why you've chosen this particular conversation. Then, just a little bit about the background. Or what you found about the conversation, but your completion is mainly about the insights of doing this erm, transcription. No actually, it can't be, can it? I don't think it does count. It doesn't, it doesn't It's in the appen it's the appendix at the back Mm, you gonna ask her I'll ask her . Erm, is this something to ? No,if you can do that, do that. So we've got the choice? You've the choice. You've got the choice. But, erm, I just thought perhaps erm, it would be unfair not to give you a choice. Anne. The transcription is separate from the total number of words, isn't it? Yes, Right. transcription itself,almost the number of words. It would take ages to words. Yeah. Okay. How soon . If, if there are problems, because you can see I'm a little bit unsure of length, myself. I haven't done this before. If there are problems,le we could work them through together, but I think this is much more interesting to be, sort o I think to be linked in with an outside project like this, and just to be working away in isolation, and so we'll feel our way experimentally. Yeah, cos I mean, the conversation you might wanna use, well may go on much longer than five sides, so you've got Good point, yes. Take, just take a, a sa sample of it. If you, yes, certainly, you can use bits, you bits of a long conversation if necessary. Are you gonna do with Jo? In case bits from the examiner penalizes yes, certainly, I'll justify that he won't. Erm, because, if he, if you're worried about the external examiner. Al although our college regulations say that, these should be two thousand words or equivalent. It always says, or equivalent, that's just in order to open up the possibilities like this, so that we're not caught by some legalistic oath. So if you can use And so the equivalent for you who is doing the Sorry. One long conversation, you can use different parts of that one long conversation is that what you say? Well, no I didn't. I said,you got a, a long, a long conversation, say, ten minutes. For our purposes you just need to take any bit, either the beginning, the middle or the end, that seem to be the best bit, the interesting bit. If I take out a chunk, you can do I do think that you're, when you're doing it, thinking of doing two bits, But I just like to Yeah. But you're, well you, supposing you've got two long conversations, what you want to do is two bits, I can transfer bits out of If erm, you know the way the transcript was written down. Yes, sorry. Well,to write on it, because it, you'll have some on one The overlap, yes. Well, let's talk about those technicalities next week. You may have to do it in longhand. Too difficult to type. Wh when it's, when you get, when you're getting interruptions, like we just had then Great you're transcribing this erm, it is, it is a problem wordprocessor. Yeah. And er, of course, if you're really ca cunning, you may say well, five sides is a difficult, erm, difficult criterion, because let's write B, but we can't, we can't up against every use your commonsense on that. Do you have to type the essay? Preferably yes, it's much easier to mark it, and I must say, research, research shows, that a clearly typed essay does tend to get a better mark. Oh, I hate typing essays Oh. It does what? There has been. Get that mark. Really? People have done research,giving marks to long though. the same piece of work handwritten and typed. Erm, and it, it does score higher when it's typed. People are influenced. We're human and you, you're influenced by presentation, so if you can type it it's not compulsory, but it is, would be in your interest that it's typed, if you can. Are you going to do the one on the left hand side. Would you still have to mention things like eye contact and gesture, and that? Or does it ? I can't do that, I thing on our tape. have we been through the of this group? Yeah. We went through them, didn't we? Yeah. What was that all the talk about No. No, that's the second part We haven't done anything, have we? assignment. Yeah, you're right. We went through the situation and background, but I don't think we did that. Erm, when we were looking at all the markers like erm, gesture, gesture and strategy,this we need to this morning. yes, and we'll come back to Right. ridiculous. So, for the rest of this morning, erm, we're going to back on what you brought in. On on conversational management. We were going to do that last week. But we didn't. the work to that. You, you just see what each other are doing, because I'm going to put you into lots of groups in a minute. I want, what I want you to do is get into groups of four in a minute, according to these instructions. Erm, groups of four, so we can use these pairs like this, so we can all talk to each other in a foursome. So we can move around. Erm, and I want to make sure that you've got, those four people have all done something different from here. Tell each other what you've done different bits of the worksheet. So I'll just, have a look round to see if who, who's done what. Who did topic charts? So you need to be separated. Go to another group. Two, two did topic choice. I did some. And three. Make sure you're in different groups. Okay. Turn taking, turn distribution. Who did that? Me. One, two, three, so we separate yourself into different groups. Erm, speakers holding the floor and the next bit. One, who are you working with? Oh, Jo, she's not here, today. Right. So it doesn't matter where you go. Erm, those turn, use turn What did you two do? Erm, I was opening conversation Opening and closing, yes, it's down here. So make sure, again, you split up. Erm, what did she just say? What did you do? I did that, and you did what? right, okay, we can stay together. I don't know, I might just about copy this out. thing is, Can we have four groups. Get into four groups English erm, round the tables cos it's easier to talk. Different erm Oh, you can come with us, if you want. No, I'll probably go into the next Oops, bloody chair. Hang on, what is it, what have we got to do now? Got to do this date. Today's the fifteenth. Yes. Has anyone, I don't think we've got anybody who's on this wrong assignment. No, we haven't. Wrong assignment. No. No. What we gotta do, just stick, discuss what we, our findings. Right erm, I'll break at, at about ten past, quarter past, so we've got about ten minutes or quarter of an hour. We're just exchanging what you've found in your groups. Erm, you haven't got everything represented there, but you've all got quite a lot,quite a large chunk of them actually. So, make sure that you get from each other what you've all got. The best way of organizing this for your file, is file of reports. Yeah, You,ho you should ideally all have a ouch,a file like this and, before I pick this up, erm, the best way of organizing your files and just, just take separate bits of paper now, to save yourselves time, is to take separate pieces of paper for the separate topics, that separate people have done, and as you're talking to each other, begin making notes and adding to, to these different bits. So for example, topic choice, could be one bit of paper, and term taken erm, opening and closing, would be another I suppose body language you,couldn't yeah, Yeah. sort of, looking at their Yeah terrible, terrible. It's my turn now. Mm. If you want. I'm sorry, no. Alright, erm, how do speakers talk Talk. Yes. Erm, they give a complex number of cues, erm, when they are about to finish their conversation, erm, I how did they manage to it's shown, it shown through the gaze of the speaker erm, erm, the speaker coming to the end of long actions has been shown to gaze heavily at the listener. So, well, actually so you know it's . Doesn't make any sense, does it? Yeah. Erm, also inclination of head towards the listener and erm erm, how did they feel that they'd finished the erm, speaker's intonation and a drop in volume of voice towards the end, and erm, also you've got quite a full tags. Like, I speak something and, and I say, you know, so you know, you know what it means. That indicates the person. Erm, and gestures as well, things like definite body movements, like like I say something, then Yeah. I point away to you you know that I've finished my conversation. Mm. Right, and, any terms at all, usually, about erm,conversations with your friends, usually it's okay just to interrupt your friends. Erm, they're quite frequent in friendly conversations and, but in casual conversations, one of three things happen. Erm, current speaker will next speaker by name, so when I speak to you and I call your name, you know that I am talking to you. It's the cue to the next person. Does it make any sense? Tell me if Yeah. Erm, so but if the speaker doesn't announce the other one by name, the third one erm, realize, may react himself. Right. So erm, if two or more do this at the same time, first person's to speak call the talk. Yes? So you that one. So if two or more do this thing like, if they don't call your name, there at the same time, the first person to speak will be four. Right. Does it make sense? No. Right. I think, Okay. Good. I did, actually,mine was the role of silence. Right, there's three different types of silence. Erm, the first one is called a lapse erm, and that happens when the person who's speaking, hasn't selected the next speaker, or nobody who's self-selected. So, and the person who's speaking decides not to go on, so perhaps the conversation has stopped. Erm, the second sort is a gap which is a brief silence, usually sort of one second or less, between the end of one turn, and the next speaker actually starting to speak, so they're still thinking about what they're going to say. So that's a gap, then there's the third type is a pause, this is terribly complicated, erm, this is a silence within somebody's turn, so it could happen in one of three ways. Erm, either the person is erm, thinking of what to say, in search of the right words, so they have a pause within their turn and then carry on. Erm, or they stop, the current speaker stops thinking that somebody might want to join in, or the erm,spea current speaker chooses the next one, but the person they choose takes so long to actually respond, the current speaker carries on, because he thinks they're not going to say anything. Can we go over those again just the pause one. Erm, right, so a pause silence within a participant's turn, so the current speaker just has a pause, then carries on speaking, Right. so it can happen in one of three ways. Either they're thinking of what to say next or they stop, thinking that somebody else might want to join in, but they don't, so that the current speaker then carries on Mm. or the speaker who's speaking, selects the next speaker by saying, didn't you think, or whatever, but the person they've chosen takes so long to answer, that the current speaker just carries on Right. cos they think they're not going to get a response I mean it, it, it can't get much er, can't get very much going on this. A lot of these sort of inter-relate, don't they, really, I mean just the sake of Just say something every now and again, don't they? Oh dear. How did you get in this morning, did you walk? Yeah. Yeah, nice day, innit it, bloody cold out there, though. Yeah, innit. Nice bright morning, though, Yeah. Least it's not raining. That's true. I don't think Where do you live? Do you? Are you in trouble every day Blimey Commutes. Oh no. It's alright, actually, the worst it takes me is about an hour. When it's really busy, but Is that from home? Yeah. Mm. Yeah, erm, this morning,yeah. Yeah. Do, do you cycle? till half eight. I think you should. Bound to isn't it? Yeah. But I don't know think it would be easier? Oh yeah The thing is that you know Yeah, I just, I just Whereabouts do you live Oh, right, ah thank you but you could come any other time. I'll give you a ring Yeah. in the evening. It's a different it's just that Sunday's free for me. Oh, what do you do, what do you do on Yeah, on Monday, my cousin is, is coming. I think that Sunday she's free, but I've got to to get at her, and on Monday I've got to go up to walk her round to see her . She's going to . But if I you come and watch I'm definitely, so we've got a cottage nearby What semi-detached? I've gotta come round. Yeah, you've certainly Someone's gotta come round I mean just to see where but I just I'll ring, I'll give you a buzz on Monday, I know you're not there, you can say,well, I'll see you again on Tuesday in English, perhaps you can arrange something then. Mm. Okay, well I think this is a good erm, juncture at which to stop. Come back in twenty minutes at the most, and we'll bring this together. No, that's my What we just said What we just said we got there. sounding right. Yeah, I yeah sorry Could do it. Aye. Just listen to her tapes. Except honestly, she's just lazy. Can't treat her own can't wash her. She no asked to speak to you No, I went round to with Mr Muscle, I went shh, shh, shh But suppose you can't doesn't he get really about the bed made? One of the beds. Yeah. Oh, it's horrible. Yeah. wipe and everything. You have to the get mattress out urgh, it's awful. on the beds. Okay, I'll tell you what, when I have rugby practice, I'll come and have a shower. Yeah, and I believe it. I believe it. I'm not joking. You get used to wash erm, at least your own scum out of erm, Oh, it was you, was it? And erm,you just got to be, you know a mum would, a mum and that You know my mum came up, she comes up and says I know this already you know, mum came up, saying, yeah well, Essex, probably Essex University, Anne goes to I think it pays a bit better. I've done it even though Have you? Mm. worked out what I am saying Oh. I still Thank God I'm not What? You alright? Fine, thank you. Ah scratch last night. Ah little man. Oh, you did? Yes. He goes I can't believe And erm, clothes in general? Yeah. So you try to go to visit him, or him come over here? Yeah. Tell him that could be good. Right. try it again and I want to do two things for the rest of the morning. Two separate things, so see whether we can work fast. First of all, this feedback, on what you were doing before coffee, and secondly talk about some of those markers and the speakers that been brought to my attention talked about with the other group, but not you. This, the sheet on conversation rules. There's relatively few rules feeling that, types erm, belong to each other. I think the best thing in a way, is not to repeat what you've already said to each other. But to bring out questions, things that you felt in your groups that you would like to perhaps ask the others about, or came back and ask me, any particular points that you to read on or weren't clear when you were talking in a group, or things that you felt the others might you know,to talk about. Let's just run through it, erm, on topic choice. Do you all feel in your separate groups, that erm, you've covered that? Yes. You've talking about it choosing a, choosing a topic and changing topics. You couldn't have got Anything that's, anything that came up that was, that you felt you wanted to tell the others about? No, not really. Choosing and changing topics are, are going to appear, I'm, I'm saying rightly, that it's going to be at first hard. Mm. In an extreme situation, we've got something like an in situ situation so the interviewer will have much more power, and has the total rights to change the topic and choose the topic, and cut off the topic when it's finished. So that's an example that gives us very much asymmetrical different amounts apart, and then you get the other end of the, the, the other extreme, you got to select, you know, you got to your power, your friendship group, and so when got to do, to choose whichever amongst friends. Would you agree with that? I'm changing,on the right hand side there Erm, right, Okay! Er,thinking about Is there any money? Don't get a chance. Are you Is there a phone box near your house? No, but we have got a telephone, and you're more than welcome to use it. No. What you've got to remember though, that's what's seek He gave you the phone number, didn't he ? No. It's just I, I was sitting here, haven't phoned my parents to say I got back here alright. That's alright. You can ring your parents. We'll all be in the kitchen, so Are you recording this now? I don't think that Oh, no. Hi. Shh, don't know Oh, alright. Sorry. Ignore that bit. Gone quiet now. I didn't realize, in fact, oh yeah, let's talk about all the men that Claire's been hanging out with. The tape recorder's on. Thank you. Oh, did you switch the tape recorder on? Is it on? Yeah. Yeah. What's he talking about? You're not allowed I'm gonna have to scrub all this bit, now. You could use it. It'll give you something to talk about. I didn't hear, I didn't hear you saying you were putting tape recorder on. I'll tell you afterwards, you see, and then I'll ask you whether you, anyone's got any objections, Erm, well, actual cardinal board of sinners, you've really scored the lot. Just in case for some reason they'll correlate, it doesn't matter. There's that girl that you think I fancy again, just moving down there. Ah, moving, oh where, where? What does she look like? Legs up to her armpits. No, you I used to know her from church in Oxford, before she moved down here. What I keep saying, we must, we must get to know her better. We mustn't I know, think you're going to Yes, darling, right, yeah. No, I'm just being friendly, cos when we moved into the church, people invited us around a lot, and it was really nice. Yeah. And Well, yeah. and Stick your car in that garage, leave door open, mind. This is your new one? That's the new sofa. Oh, very smart. You said you were gonna change it all round when you got the new sofa. Yes. It looks nice. another new one. Cor, nice. You got the whole room changed. Yes, a few plants there. Oh, you've taken this off somewhere actually on there Yeah, I know. You got a coat. You got, er,any coats or, coats or anything? But we're not gonna sort of go out there much in the winter too. No. No. put them on my bed. Yeah. Nick, now, I haven't got Charlotte 's number, so you're gonna have to Nick, er, tel; Hang on. I've got Yeah, course you can. That's a fax machine. Oh. Let me, let me do it. Put it down. Pick it up. Go on. Hello, alright. Yes. It's really fun. It's really good. Just needs tidying up. got slapped in the face. You didn't. I have. That little kid, That little naughty one. playing was on automatic. Really. Yes, hello, is, is Charlotte there, please. Er, er sorry, I think I might have the wrong number. Okay, sorry, bye-bye . to understand that be sorry after about five minutes. You can do it this time. Why did she Here it is, here it is, That's what I just did. got too scary, so to make me scared, she slapped me round the face. Oh, I see, oh, right, well done. What's this? Be a good laugh, actually. Is it engaged? round you all the time, aren't they? not all waiting round there. Been alright, but Thing was, we thought it wo it would have stopped 'em. But that's really unusual because we got there at half past one. Gosh aren't they lucky. When's their evening performance then? Quarter to eight. Ah, heck. I don't think we should Erm, so It's really weird, it's, it's really small. Which is basically a square with a middle, and it's just got C P C P C Is it the balcony? the balcony Yeah, it's in the balcony. Charlie. And we got really good seats. Yeah. We got, I was right at the front in the balcony. How much does it take to go up in the balcony, more or less? I doubt there's any difference. Really? We paid about five fifty, I was up, I was in the actual compartment going home. So I was really pleased with my tickets. good actually. Yes, it was very good. wasn't it Karl? Yeah. It was really good acting. Yeah. I have a feeling, actually, that all the prices are all the same, because, and here it tells you, and I seem to recall only seeing one oh no they are, five fifty to eleven pounds. Five fifty must be students, eight fifty must be O A Ps Well, well, an O A P. Erm, Don't know. I don't know, maybe you do pay more in the balcony. What, but I, surely you wouldn't pay more in the balcony. Cos I had a really good view. I had an excellent view. I don't know how they stalls are usually very expensive aren't they, all the back . they? Is there a Do you know this erm,oh, I've lost one of those. there's two of the Yeah, and showed us another one today. What's that? Erm, a secondhand book shop. Should know that there were two, I only thought there was one. You're more than welcome to sit on the sofa. I know it's new, but you don't have to be scared of it. I'm gonna see the Oh, it's nice. Eighteen ninety eight. I'm just going to er, bed. Yeah. Yeah, it sure does. Yes sirree Bob. Straight to you. It doesn't go up. Did you get any insurance? my mum got me an , yeah. Hey, I about the book in the library the other day, plus all the other work she showed us. Don't know why, I just felt like it. That's really good. Looks quite good, doesn't it? Four pound. Not bad. It's a nice old book as well. Mm. Thought well. You know, should be useful. Get to know a bit of the history. Cos I'm very good at knowing what this is and what that is, but I, I, in timescale, I haven't got a blooming clue. You got all your books, your study books? Have I? yeah Ah I've got a, I've got a big erm, Milton books, This is the Milton one I've got. Is it Milton, I got, oh Nice, innit? Yeah. Oh, I see. Oh, it's nice, it's really nice. Ah, don't be lovely name. Paradise renamed. Oh, so that's It's really good. Right. Erm, all these books, you gonna gonna get murdered. Wouldn't they? Pardon? Wouldn't they? tell 'em to Yeah. What have I done? Nothing. Can I borrow you. Yeah, you can, I'm gonna start the dinner in a minute. sent out there. You gonna do it for me? Yeah. Just say if Ben and Charlotte are there, hi, dinner's up. It's engaged. Sorry I shall be Is it planning to be on erm, er production going on about Mary this week, at all,wouldn't mind going to. Was it this week, or next week? It's called Shakespeare Country. Ah, yeah, I heard about that. Yeah, she was telling us about it that girl, in wr in writing, what it, she was telling us it, about it being formed at a different venue, but it's actually the Mary Wallis Theatre. Do you know where that is? Erm, no. It's erm in, in Twickenham. I thought she sounded like she was in it, or something. Yeah, she did, didn't she? I think she is. But there's a little th you know where the, the Mary Wallis Theatre is, don't you, Jules? Do I? I've heard of it. By the river, in Twickenham. You know the garden with the statues The hanging wheelie thing? Yeah. That's the Mary Wallis Theatre, yeah. Mm. There's a, I, I nearly booked up tickets to go and see this, but I didn't know if anybody would fancy going to see it with me. It's called Mr Director, and it's played by Faye . I'd go and see anything really. I thought perhaps we'd go erm, see if we can get stand by tickets for it, on Monday. The Orange Tree was really, really little, wasn't it? Yeah, that's nice. I like little theatres. Tiny. They weren't like, you kept changing the places so, like, you have the whole cast like, away from you, and then you'd have them facing you. Mm. Who has sugar? No one does. No, thank you. Nicole, can I help? No, thank you. Be in the way. Too many cooks spoil the broth. Pardon? Too many cooks Any takers for in here? No. it was tiny, it's just as long, looks like a drawing room. You all set? I saw fortunes of I don't know how you pronounce it. It was really a good play, ha, and it was done so well, and you were so close to it as well, you got in for two pounds, best thing I've ever seen. Blimey, two quid. It was standing, though, but it was only an hour play. it was eleven quids in, eleven quids, eleven quid if you had a go on a stand by day. It's not that cheap though, it is? No, they're not really, you got a stand by, you got it for eight fifty, and cos we're students, instead of eight fifty, we got it for five. Thank you. Oh, that looks nice. Yeah, that looks nice. They're pretty aren't they? We had quite a lot of making guesses of what it'll , when it's like half done. Yeah. What, sorry? I don't know what it is, so I'm gonna Oh, right. have to start making guesses when I can smell it. Oh, don't get too excited. Thank you. It really isn't very exciting, I'm afraid You keep trying, cos it's engaged. Do you want me to do it? Yeah, if you would. Will redial, dial them again? Yeah. Dial, redial Yeah, she looks much older in that photograph there. Yeah, she does, doesn't she? talk to her actually, cos er, She's been in lots of Let's have a look. Was she? The one we'v we're trying to put an age to. Oh yes, she does. We end up Well, she is Yeah. Hopefully feet. Perhaps they've left. No answer now. try and do. Hello, is that Charlotte yes please Mm, I recognize her, she's Oh, that's well known, Yeah. Diane. she been on T V, cos she been Yeah. Trying to get I think she was in erm you don't,Aga Miss Marple recently or erm Really Diane Fletcher. Yeah, I used to enjoy that. Yeah it was really good She was really good. Hi, it's Phil here. I, I forgotten that it was Justine, I, it just threw me a bit that erm, erm, Nick asked me to let you know that we were here and that we'd received the chairs. Yes Er, no, no, no sorry. What's wrong? Yes, we could be. Yeah, any time, any time you like. Can I ask you a favour? Erm, could you pick up a pint of milk at the Seven Eleven for us, hang on, I'll give you some money. That's lovely, erm no that's it. Oh, that sounds lovely. No, yes alright, alright, bye- bye . Bye. Justine probably thinks I'm really rude now. Why? Not that she didn't think I was really rude before. Just to reinforce that They're all, all pretty impressive people, aren't they Here, here we are with Meredith Davies, these are What's the man on the very end, he looks like people running on the sand. That, that's Paul Simon. Ah. Is that Paul Simon? Meredith I just haven't seen the C D for this. What do you like? I, I don't, I don't know. You prefer the man singing that, than singing I'm so Sleepy. Oh, Nancy Rider. Was it Nancy Rider? Griffiths. Griffiths. Sorry, sorry, Griffiths. Okay, I'll put this on. Just for me Doreen. See what you're about to say, Mary I think Bought it for I think I bought that for Nick, but she didn't have a C D player, so I kept it. Sorry, I You know you said that Did you know that might erm, be actually staying together at that stage?to see if Mind you, it was before we were engaged or anything. Was it? Wasn't it? When you say a thing about yo th that, erm, who's got one of those pink pottery mugs. These two have. We bought those when we Yeah When we were just going out. We bought one each. Really? Yeah we just knew. It's true . But we didn't say to each other, to each other , it wasn't like, now we're both buying these mugs, jointly, sort of thing. It's like, Is, is anyone once you go round buying two mugs now is anybody sort of falling over hungry, desperate for something to eat, and they can't wait till dinner? No, I can, I can wait. No, I can wait. Must just be me, then. I'm speaking for my myself here, so if anybody else is, is dying really. I'm away from do actually. Erm, It's all a matter of degree of hunger. Can I try erm, a scampi? Never mind, there'll be other things coming round soon. dangerous whatever it's called. Things against your life. Oh, there's no need to pick on us. And then,the big ones to you, they're gonna feel like really fat. No, I'm just gonna bung it all in. One big thing. Yes, but, but, that is, I'd use that. Do you know what it is? Just for one thing. I'd just use those two. Er, what about using the two big ones? They said they went to get the food at Waitrose, and I heaved, and I said, I don't want to see Don't want to see actually a surprise. You want one of those for wine, you just got one I got it twice the size, though. That's eighteen Eighteen. thirty five Oh, that's silly that. Well, that's rather pricey. No, no, not pricey. Is that I followed you there. Oh, wasn't it cold this morning? It was It was icy, wasn't it? What was that? I'm sitting on the And I was talking, cos I walked along, I walked down towards Twickenham, but I walked to way you go to when I went straight down to Twickenham. Whose is that? Twenty minutes, I suppose. but it's so cold. Oh it was horrible. I couldn't believe it, the room where the seminar had been Yes, that came into the again. Well, I had such a lovely day, it's so nice and sunny and warm, should have did send me a card Yeah, exactly a card. You know, you carry on down the motorway, like the sun was on, on, and I was really getting sweaty hot with the sun, it was like on the win on the on er, the window Mm. and it was strange, but it was really warm cos you having the window, and ah that was really hot. No. Well, I would have said that the white one Well, have we got six? Six Oh, that's okay. Just seeing if we've got enough plates. There you are. You should have said, we could have brought some round. Oh, we won't turn this light off. Yo you can't see. Is that alright? That's fine, yes, sorry. Miles away. Oh, that's nothing. reckon it costs much to run these lights underneath here? No, cos they're fluorescent, it's only about twelve watts, it's less than a light bulb. Oh, I see. You got an electricity bill? Twenty seven. Well, what Twenty seven, that's not bad. Yeah, we, I don't think that's bad. Mind you a quarter, that looks quite good. Can't be a quarter, must be a month, surely. Before you put the heating on. Is it estimated? It says for a quarter, which means you're paying a quarter's erm, like charge, which is s seven quid, but it's only actually for a, a month. Right. To the end of October. Was it estimated? Erm, no. Well you know Can't be a quarter. That's right. Don don't you get a monthly electricity bill? No. Quarterly. Quarterly. But the they give it you at the end of the quarter, even if you haven't been in for a quarter. See what I mean? Right. So they do November, December, don't they? October, November, December is one quarter. So it's right, you move in in September, then they'll give you, they'll charge you You'll get that quarter's bill, but it's only since Right, I'll come and sit down and drink my tea. Oh, I see. Right. Non-stop Oh, it's nice to have a sit down. The thing is, I thought I need to write to them, because when we just sent Mr yeah. bill for the quarter between the second of August and the twentieth of September, and he had to pay seven quid for standing charges for that bill. Right. And we've had to pay it for from the twentieth of September to the eighth of October. Oh, I see. So we've had to pay another seven quid something. Right. But we, surely we shouldn't, cos we're, it's not for a month, it's only for A matter of weeks. Yes, it's not for a quarter, it's only for, you know, whatever. Probably be, the next bill you get will probably be bumped up a bit, because you've had the heating on, yeah. Right, yeah. I mean, I don't really think I, at the moment we only need to have the heating on in the hall Yeah, that's right. and in our rooms, Yeah. and if it do it does get really cold in the lounge, but at the moment, we're managing. Yeah. Could have water bottles, we've already got water bottles. Yeah, we all crowd on top Used to be really sitting there with blankets and water bottles and everything watching the telly. Well. We only need our heating on for an hour. Do you? An hour in the morning. We have it on less, because it doesn't heat, I mean, standing in this lobby, it heats up so quickly Yeah. and especially if you're cooking as well. Yes. We're just like, the other day I was doing the washing-up and I was just like, stripping off with my outer layers Really? because I was so boiling. Yeah. cos we'd had cooked, had the heating on, and now I did the washing-up in really hot water. Yeah, it's very contained, as well so that probably the heat stayed But we'd have it on less, except you just can't, you lit physically on the clock, you can't put erm Down less than an hour well, you can't put the things any closer to one another, so, you know the, the little indicators that clicks One off Yeah. Yeah. We've got those as close together as they can. Close together It's actually on for two hours in the evening. Really? Is it? Yes. I think it's two hours it's on for. I thought it was one. No, I think it's two. It's a bit silly really. Badly designed. Well, yes. Well, perhaps we could, sort of file them, a size down because yack, yack yack good . You could have a go. Well, then, then you'd be able to get them closer. I'm not doing that. Anything to have a try. Mm. So. See how horrendous the next one is and then panic. Then go, my God we can't pay it. Pay it. Have to sell my soul to the devil himself. Yeah. Promise as a play. Sell my soul to the de devil himself. Shut up. way she says, that when she sell that book. Have you actually seen that? No. Cos I think I've done two of his, that's enough. I wish I had. Oh no, that's Harlow isn't it, Harlow's Actually,brilliant. It's very well done, but, read. Any of these books, yours Those ones up there are all his. Actually, Classic Climbs of Great Britain is mine. Erm, and mo most of mine are up there. Nick thinks that her, Nick, Nick thinks that her books are much nicer than my books, you see. What a liar . So mine are relegated to the That's not true, they're all the God books up there. Only climbing So they're in a high place. The God books to be found, yeah they're up in a high place. Those are fiction paperbacks. Yeah. The trash. No, the Sort of cave books, cave man books. They're actually really funny in places. Plain of the cave man. Cave man. They weren't actually called plain of the cave man. They're really highly acclaimed books. They're Are they? thoroughly researched. Yeah. Mm. Actually, my friends at church, back home, used to call me erm, cos I, I sort of sometimes squeal when I get excited. Yes. We have noticed. That's Nicole, yes. Yes, every time I start squealing where they give zhowwee cavvy Yes. that soon shut me up. Oh dear, I started to get violent then. Lash out, hit them all. I really want to go and see, erm, what is it, what's the film Grease. No, no, no where they go round in those little cars, what's it called? Erm, Elma, and erm, Thelma and Louise. Thelma and Louise. No, no, no, no, no. You know when they go round in their little cars. Oh, you're thinking about the Flintstones then. Yeah. I really Oh, Yeah, They're bringing out a video, you know. Yeah, it's erm Go round in those little cars husband, isn't it? Where they where they go round in those little Yeah, I really wanna to see that, actually Isn't, isn't Danny de Vito dance That's right. Oh no, why is it,people-ized ? Rick, Rick somebody. Yeah. No Yeah. They've done it with real people? Yeah, yeah. They're doing, they're doing erm Isn't Kim Bassinger Wilma or something? They're doing erm, I don't know. What you like, Thunderbirds, aren't they supposed to be doing Thunderbirds with real people? probably, probably They're doing Thun Thunderbirds. Gonna move like this. Sharon Stone or something. I think Sharon Stone wanted to be Wilma. Really? I'd really like to see that. It's a, it's a change to keep her clothes on, so things I wanna go and watch. So typical, isn't it, that when you go to see plays, you always like, dashing to the last minute to try and get tickets and been on for like, two months. How's that? It's just goes on Friday September the second. Has it really? It's a long run, isn't it? Blimey, I didn't realize that. last night. September the second. Yeah. That's like Over a month. Well over a month, isn't it? It's the sixteenth today. And like, I'm doing the Changeling in a couple of weeks' time Bless me. an and it really helps you Bless you. to go and see it Thank you. at the Barbican, they were just completely sold out. Really cheesed off. It was on all summer. That's like that Twelfth Night. Never mind. So is the Orange Tree quite a famous theatre, then? It's got a good name Good reputation. Yeah. cos it's Rich Richmond, I don't know where Richmond Theatre is. Where's Richmond Theatre? It's on the green. Right I'm with you now. it's much bigger. It's all Isn't that It's really posh. is a preview the one before the their run. Preview is where you get the press going along, don't you? It's usually, erm, you know, like a dress rehearsal, Yeah. where it ha it gets a reaction between the audience and the erm, Right, because in there, if you pay fifteen pounds, you get erm, you get tickets for, you know you only have to pay four pounds, plus you get half price tickets for When did you see that, Phil? normal productions Really? Friends of the Orange Tree The preview club. For just fifteen pounds per year, you can become a member of the Orange Tree Theatre's preview club. Ooh. You'll receive two tickets for the price of one at preview performances. Ah, that's good. Concession price tickets only four pounds each to performances in the room. Regular newsletter of all production details. What's the room, is that separate? Yeah, Don't they mean it's lower, rather than the upper circle? Oh, yeah. Does that look cheaper than the I would say it's more expensive. Expensive. I don't see why, I, Yes, yes, so would I, you know, right in the centre of the action, I thought we had brilliant seats. Thing is though, you get an ov overall picture Yeah, whereas we get like the action right next to them. you can probably be, be facing it and just the articulation's more. Where sometimes we had the back of the heads and cos like you probably saw a completely different play to us. Yeah, yeah. You were sitting right the other side of the stairs Yeah, exactly. So what do you reckon the room is? Just on the floor? Yeah. Oh, that's not bad is it? Four pounds. To each performance. Whereas if it had been standing room, we really would have been standing. I agree with like There was a couple of people when we went to see Fear, Yeah and it was like standing, and you'd be sitting on the steps there were a couple of people standing, weren't there? cos it was really small. Mm. The Old Vic's er, venturing around as well. Difficult evening, aren't you. Er, not the Old Vic, I beg your pardon, the Young Vic. I won't say There's old ladies here. old men's all know the Vic. The Queen Vic. The more mature Vic. Mm. Right. the lesser Vic. You could buy, you could buy bar spaces, or seat spaces here. That's erm,yo did you notice those little name tags on the front of the seats in front of you? Yeah. Yeah. Two hundred and fifty pounds each. Jes So. To do what? No, I don't think so. It's just a money raising thing. What do they do? Oh, it's just, it's just. Have their name put on it. Part of the appeal, yeah, just to get your name on your seat. But you're still looking at the bar spaces a hundred and fifty pounds, and seat spaces two hundred and fifty pounds. So there's still opportunities to join Arthur Daley, Adrian Edmondson, Sir John Geilgud, Derek Jacobi, Sir Anthony Hopkins, Dame Judy Dench. Michael Caine, Julian Those the people that have been there and put down their names on it? Well, they've they've given the money to the appeal. Oh, I see. Nicole . Yes. Nicole Call her Nick. Nicole, please. Papa, papa. Papa? You have to swing your bottom, papa? what it's like Why can't she go on a motorbike, just cos she's got a dress on? Right. More than likely, she's bought a car. Can I try again. Says here, smoking is not allowed. Yeah, I was quite surprised that woman was smoking in there, actually. Quite surprised. By the bar area. Do you mean in the theatre? Literally, and then you have to sit there with this cream on, and it's all very fiddly and messy and it smells. Mm. Oh, let's be natural and groovy babe. Yeah, I couldn't see the it's very underarm . The first time I saw, I went to Germany on an exchange, I can't stand hairy underarms. No. I can't either. And erm, he went to school there, and erm, all the girls had these incredibly hairy legs. blokes from Germany. Are you having us on there? Germans, are really hairy, they don't Yeah. shave armpits and girls. It really is quite repulsive, I know,yo you see them on the beach and they also have these horri these horrible sandals, you know, and they're like got rain forests underneath their arms. these sort of charming strappy sandals all bits of leather on them. And hairs growing out their toes and their legs and their underarms. They've got some coming out their big toes as well. They have beards as well as It's such a British thing, isn't it? The way we talk. I know you don't like that we put on people, but Yeah, you say that, but you know, your, if you had underarm hair, no one would say hmm,that man's got underarm hair I mean, it's quite alright, but for women to have underarm hair, it's just not. It's not fair, is it? I mean, it's stupid you wax your, why do you wax your legs it's so stupid. I mean, why don't you wax the whole of your body? But hair's normally a bit finer on your thighs, isn't it? Mm. Yeah, it is, but then you just, I think you get hair paranoid. Yeah, you do. You just get I sit there with a pair of tweezers going my mum thinks you're so fussy, and I'm like Well, I did, or you tend to be, you used to be Claire, when you used to wax your legs. I mean, my legs have rarely seen a Bic razor you know, I'm gonna wear a pair of shorts in the summer, I might shave 'em, but I Yeah, but that's where slightly different to me, cos I'm Yeah. in shorts every day of the week in the gym for an hour, and I'm swimming Yeah, we know, yeah. three times a week, so I'm in a swimming costume. So if I'm gonna have like, There's a gorilla coming into the room. Yeah. No, my hair my Don't even think about the fat, but They normally, don't they? on the hair. Help to make streamlining. It makes no difference, then if you've got fine hair, No, no. or light hair. my legs, I suddenly realized when I was changing at the swimming pool, and thought oh sod it, who's gonna notice, I mean, at half past seven, I really can't get that excited about it. Nathan, who's the only bloke in our lane, but doesn't use contact lenses or anything, who's gonna notice, No, exactly, exactly. Is he slightly coloured? Well. Pardon? Slightly coloured. Slightly coloured. Slightly comfortable or slightly coloured. Dirty. Thought you were gonna say slightly hairy . Yeah. Is he slightly hairy? Is Nathan,Pa like Pakistani sort of colour? Yes, he is, but he hasn't He's not. it's terrible to talk like this, he has got all the features, but perhaps one of his characteristics erm, why he . No, he hasn't, that's why I said slightly coloured, rather than Pakistani I remember that one, Claire. He's not fully developed. What? I remember that one, slightly sexy,is he, is he coloured? Is he Yeah, but he's not, he doesn't look Pakistani, does he? Yeah, I know. He doesn't look black and he's not white. So what do you call him? Well, I know, he's not Asian, but I think perhaps he's What I don't understand is, changing the sub sorry, do you want to finish, first,? No, I have finished. I don't think you have, I think I interrupted No, I was just thinking,carry on. I don't understand why some Asians, or some people that look as if they're Asian or Pakistani, actually come from Africa, because They don't do they? They do. My boss who is Pakistani, comes from Kenya. Yeah, but he, perhaps he moved there, just as say, born there. If his parents came I think, these days, if somebody, it's like erm But there are a lot of But there's a lot of them, there is, there is a whole different erm I mean, he married a girl from Pakistan,who got in real trouble, both of them got in trouble with their parents for it, because he was a Kenyan Indian and she was an Indian Indian or something, I don't know. But All different nowadays. Okay there. Doing the erm, old erm, Nathan Yeah. I'm not doing anything really. I'm standing in the kitchen going kkeerr. Make out you're noisy. Is he the guy whose doing the other night. Karate. Karate. body weights, has made him really keen, like, he's quite tubby, isn't he? Like else. Yeah, he's very keen, Three times a week or something. He's there every time I'm there. But he's like, he's always doing, like he's never like comes up the lanes or anything, or swims about. No. Even when he meant to go swimming, he was like keeping up his in the lane. yeah, he's there all weekend. Yeah, and he's really And we always said, we'll see you tomorrow then, you know, we'll come swimming and we're never there, never get up. Ah. And erm, and, he just is always there, he's really reliable like that. fun. Thank you. That plant seems to have revived which is nice. Pouring wine on it Breathing toxic fumes on it. chilli powder, it will be well away. I potted it up properly. Before I just put the pot it was in, sat it in, inside it, and it was, obviously wasn't getting enough water that way. It didn't reach the bottom erm, No, no, couldn't get any. Aargh. No, No, I didn't kill it. ground coffee today what? I said everyone wanted ground coffee today. Actually, we're having tea, Claire, what are you doing I'm not. It's a very Yeah, it is, isn't it? Lovely. It is nice, mm, that's your latest acquisition? Mm. We've got the old one. Mm. Are you fed up with it yet? No, I think it's really comfy. No. isn't it. Don't give me that. I mean it, I, I'm happy to sit on it, because it's the best yet. I have to say, that compared to other chairs, Yeah, that's true. Yeah. We put the old ones, mum's Yeah, they've really cracked up, we threw them They talk terrible. Sorry. Oh, did you? Yeah, so ask me how we did it, I really don't know. What did you,buying furniture, there. Really? Mm. Yep. Which is really hard, cos it's Do you want to leave? That's great, no, no. It's gone, oh, I put it on earlier, that's why. Is that longer than you have it the window there. Oh. Oh. Sorry. Don't worry. That's okay, That's alright, it's probably the cheap ones, that's fine. Sorry. That's okay. It's red ones. Slid out, no, it's only glass. What's that? Aha. What is it? Oh, look the The bulbs. Oh look, the bulbs Should be able to stick that back. At least it's only one. Yes, have you got some Araldite or something? At least, give it to my er my er stepmother and she'll disguise it for you. Oh, really. Why, what she Painter. Really? So if you ever want anything she'll That's really good. My body. Just here and here and She'll disguise your legs. Yes. The hair on the hairs them, yes. Could she erm, bleach my hairs white and then just like, make them look like skin? Stick them down Save lots of money and time. It depends on your lifestyle you live, though, cos I got friends who are just like ah, I don't like and you have to excuse my hairy legs running or something, I mean, I just like they're like this, and they've got like black hair about this long, and I'm like oh my God, oh my God, you're just like Yes. But it depends what she, she's, people like that mean to, cos I never wear anything li like trousers or long skirts and tights. And I like erm around in shorts every day, and I'm on the swimming pool side three times a week, so I don't have much choice. Before we got married I just thought I had I'd never had my legs shaved er, waxed before. So I I wanted to make sure they were long enough , and I went and started at Christmas, and I , er, this is so gross, and I just felt the scummiest thing, it was sort of, it's not exactly how you wanna feel just before you get married, and then I went and had my legs shaved er waxed. Waxed In fact, I got so much dirt, Really? Yeah. Is this two lots in here? Er, Sorry? Just one full. I did it very full, that's all. What did you think when they waxed them, especially. I wasn't terribly impressed, actually. Really? No. I was a bit disappointed. But maybe I'm just a perfectionist, I don't know. Then when you shave, it's so Is it bruised, or anything? No, I, I mean I looked a, like a bit of a plucked chicken every day, but Yeah, you do. had it done in the afternoon, that's okay, but I mean You don't think I shall erm, you can't go in the sea for about two days, and you can't go in the sun painful ain't it? No. Really? Wahey. They've got a new erm, Special razor. razor, apparently Yeah, that's right. new American one that you hold like that, and you just go,swi swi Big Yeah, that's right. Scrubbing brush. My mum couldn't believe it when I shaved my legs, thought it absolutely outrageous. What are you doing, I said, I'm just shaving my legs. If I nick my face I think there's a Yeah. blood bath. I have been known to erm, one time only, actually I can't do that, oh, but I do bath t t t t Granny razor. One like this, and I had a like gash about two inches up my legs. Yeah, I've done that. Go on, the other day, usually it's me, did exactly the same, and I walked around with scabs two inches long. Yeah, the first thing I've ever the first time I've shaved my legs, I forgot the water. Yeah, I did that. Oh. I did it as well. I'll never do that again, oh. if you can do it out of the bath, so I thought, oh, that's it, get the razor You don't need water It's going shh, like this, and it's exactly what I did, and my sister came in and she's going, what're you doing? And I said I'm shaving my legs. It was just like, you know, I'm really grown up now, I'm shaving my legs. And she said, but you haven't got any soap or any cream or anything. You know, just oh, do you need it? She said, yes Oh, it's a nightmare girls. The only thing is when you're doing it, you don't notice, you know three hours later, and you've got this raw leg and nice straight lines and you're In fact, stripy where you've missed bits. The normal leg and the raw bits Yeah,about. At my parents house, erm, in that, we've had an extension in there, so the garden's not there any more, but erm, I used, the light used to come in from the windows, so of at, at the angle to the bath, so I couldn't lift my leg up, so I rub it gently like this, and I'd watch the told me where I missed bits and Oh no. The thing is, I don't think I would have shaved my legs now, cos I'd feel too guilty. I just cut my legs Against your religion is it, Claire? Yeah, I've just had my legs waxed for so long,and people have said to me don't ever wax, don't ever shave your legs, because it will grow back thicker, and it will grow back prickly, and I, you know, it is fairly fair Probably is true, it would grow and soft, but I mean, so now I just feel like if I that long, I wouldn't bother. No. But even so,la last night I got my legs wet, and I just went, Oh, never again, I'm just not in the mood. a bit of a pain shaving in the shower though. What. I don't do my legs. Oh, don't you? dries them. But I just do it very quickly. Sarah prefers shaving in the shower. It seems so legs, sort of, bend down my legs, and you can't see I like shaving in the shower. Yeah, but you can put I like shaving in the wardrobe I find it Is that all, I'm glad I'm not the only one who does that. Cos I find,a bit weird when I first started. Do you, do you shave in the shower, you never shave in the shower? No, I started it saves time in the morning. Yeah, it's great. It really is. You spend hours, depends, you know, how long, when we go in the bathroom, standing there doing You take hours. Get rid of those damps spots as well. You do take ages. Those wax strips. I can pull them off Do my contact lenses and you know, I'll bath, we'll both, we seem to be in the bathroom for hours Mm absolutely hours. I can't get under ten minutes in the morning to sha to have a shave. Oh, no. to get a camera. adorable, wouldn't he? What do you mean don't, I do, I do, anyway, actually You've left your razor out. couldn't we? you do anyway The thing is, you can just get too paranoid, can't you? Yeah. all go home now, at midnight Get the lawnmower out. m m mutilating people all these legs everywhere. Sorry. This is such hard work, I find. I was, I think I was a little self disorganized the other night,add things eight attacks, and all sorts of strange things, Make up in there, yeah Now I don't have time and I don't bother. Yeah, I was most Thing is I just couldn't buy it any more. And reading those terrible things, that you're for dead, and you have to get up at so many different times. Yeah, lemon juice and hot water. Yeah. a bit of cucumber on your nose. bathroom put your cucumber face back on and things like that. I mean, no, I can't be bothered sorry. Another boy went down, was so disgustingly Well, I reckon that lot yourself for what you are. Got a shower in, and when you were sixteen you don't know what you are Yes, get on with today, I need my breakfast. Make people accept you, but when you are a bit older when you think of changing, don't you, Yeah. Yeah. and then you suddenly realize when you're nineteen You are who you are. and it's, if you have a face pack, it's not going make you look like Audrey Hepburn anyway. So might as well forget it. And just you know, it's ridiculous. Oh, isn't it, oh, sorry Oh dear, we'll have to do something about this. And even if you lose two and a half stone, you're still not gonna look like, you know, some skinny model because you're still gonna be about six foot wide with your hips and your shoulders, but I mean, you're just gonna have gangly longer legs and walk around like this. And be really unhappy because you've got on. Yeah, exactly. Very depressing isn't it? And you can't exercise, because you've never got any energy. Can't get out of bed . My guess is I think the answer is work an hour a day Yeah. Yeah, for ten thousand pounds an hour or so. And then they can hire a personal physician, or whatever they are To suck it all out. to erm, yes, to suck it all out,it up, or Grow up. Cellulite removal. Train them or something. They see it all, anyway. is well over six foot tall, Oh, here's this photograph with, of erm, Naomi Campbell's bottom in it. She hasn't got a bottom. I'm surprised, Naomi Campbell's a pain in the a Yeah, but a lot of people in trouble, isn't she? Didn't she get kicked out by her Yeah, well, she said she, she told them where to go, and they said they Told her where to go. Yeah. She's writing up, she's writing her erm, autobiography now. It's already out. Oh, is it? In that erm, in that mermaid outfit, and earning some ridiculous amount of money for an hour, while other models went up and down a catwalk for a tenth of the money, or something. Do you remember, did you see that thingy? Yeah. Sat in that stripy, mermaid thing. you the other gest the other plate Stupid, I don't see how anybody can earn, to afford that, you know, to accept that amount of money. With all, with the world the way it is. It's disgusting. That's what we were saying today, weren't we, yeah. oh well, I support this charity Cos they do actually er deserve all the money they get. Is this Cindy Crawford? Supports erm dodgy challenger. They all support something. Yeah, they all tend to be environmentally friendly, it's quite sick. In Papua New Guinea or something. their parents, but it's like when they're modelling in their bikini and they have to go, oh, I love the environment and erm, I support this charity, thank you very much, and I love world, and that's it. They just go backwards, and they er Yeah, yeah, I love you all, right. They're not particularly Yeah. interested in the charity they support. It's a bit like Miss World, innit, and they never They're, they're, they are not really there for their charitable concerns. No. They're just out to get the money, aren't they? They look wonderful in their bikini. Yes. And they like going on holiday oh and a pretty tiara. And I like a man with lots of muscles and And they're the ones with yachts Get off me, That girl, erm, is it Kate Moss isn't it? Yeah. Looks like new, girl. We're waiting for a model. She's just like a french stick, isn't she? Who is this? Kate Moss, she's a New Zealand girl. I wouldn't mind looking like that now. I must admit. Oh, come on. Er, she's horrible. She's so ugly, Claire. Absolutely repulsive to look at. Naomi Campbell. No, erm Kate Moss. Kate Moss. Really, she's a She's not ten year old, is she? Yeah, Yeah supposed to look like that. I think she looks nice really, because she does look very young, she's only about turned sixteen, isn't she? She does look like a girl rather than a woman Yeah. She's really young. She's got all these men leering over her, I just think it's really perverse. But in a way then, they shouldn't, they shouldn't make such a big thing about all these skinny models, then, because, like, if you look at all these magazines and stuff, all these basically beautiful women are all like, you know, very, very thin, very very tall. Yeah. That's what they seem to be going towards now, aren't they? Yeah. For the blokes as well And if you don't fit into that category, you're just not accepted, and you're just like, ugly. and so everyone like, wishes they would look like that. It's really bad. It starts really young, with erm, toys like Barbie Doll, who's incredibly thin, and I think that's just disgusting. It's coming out beautiful and me then. All the men are like Kens, But it's just so sexual as well, you know, for children from four upwards, I just think it's really bad. How far No, that's true And, look at Ken, I mean, he hasn't even got any genitals. Yeah, I mean he's Ken though No, I had an Action Man, because I got, I inherited my brother's and his eyes went It was, it was for the and his arms went like this and his aargh And he had his scars. and he had his scars like this, and his ankle went like that, and his arms went like that, and He had a funny knee as well He had a very pert bottom, though, didn't he? Yes, he had a and they all liked Simon, and note the hair, the role model, obviously hairs all over them, sort of asexual, they're not really any sex Yeah, exactly, and erm, you know quite a good idea, like free, if you had to erm, speak to a teddy bear Yeah, that's a . Coloured Exactly, man or whatever. Exactly, I mean I teddy bear. Oh my life. So I put teddy in the first He's twice the size. Which is a good thing, innit? Yeah. It's just stupid. I didn't realize I was multi-racial side of it. Yeah. I don't know whether that, I mean surely that's what they mean, so Yeah, I hope so. Yeah. When even such as, you know, not necessarily black people find it, say black kid and black dog. Right. But you know,. I just think Sorry, I was just going to say, I was just saying, that I saw the posters that erm parents and carers should erm, go along to talk about parenting and at the bottom it said, erm, will be selling multi-racial toys and dolls and things like that. Do we need the . people like, mm, I'm not scared. Yeah. Yes, you do. I mean, when I, when I was a kid I got, erm, I was given an Australian doll baby, and which was funny cos it had an amazing sun tan and dark blue eyes and blonde hair, like typical Ozzie child. Really? Yeah, great, that's really great. Dazzling white teeth. And, presumably you had an Aborigine I don't know, it's very odd. But I think we should,it's like today, where was I, Battersea area, I think and it's the first shop I'd seen that actually had Chinese model manikins in the window, I thought they were sw pretty unusual. Oh, really? There's a big Chinese er department store opened up, wasn't there? There is one in London, just off erm, Leicester Square as well. There's like only Chinese and Japanese people in the shop. We walked in, and we felt like going, sorry, as if we were like disturbing something. We walked out again. It was really weird. Is that that one? Yeah. Is it erm, a hall, is it a precinct? Yeah. It's like a precinct, it sells loads of bags and scarves and purses and all sorts of other things, and you go through the shop, like and that's the first thing you see. It's really strange. it's just odd, isn't it, you just don't realize how Yeah. racist, our country is Yeah, You don't think about having black dolls, No. My mum, my mum was saying that erm, at Maria's playgroup, they were erm, they got, they got a ticking off, because of, they said to them you know you really should be introducing black dolls to the children, which is fair enough, but they also Try that. Thank you, that's lovely, that's great. which I thought was a bit over the top, they said that, you know, where you have pretend foods, you should really have like Oh, no. Yes. And That's not English food, I'm sorry. No, yeah, I know, you know to cater for the That is, that is different, that is ethnic origins, yeah, I thought that was a bit over the top. Well, my mum said it was a bit pathetic, you know, it's almost like, you know, erm, the And who's gonna sell a fake , I'm sorry. What is it mummy? It's a chapatti. Do you want them to play with like whatever money comes from those countries, you know. Yeah. But it's honestly, erm No, I'm sorry, we've got to play with rupees. Rupees today, girls, and boys, sorry. But then if you, if you Sorry sorry go into the Asian, if you go Asian community, it's amazing like,the sort of leftish area, or something. How sort of, seven out of ten of the shops for clothes are just selling the saris To me the women's, and like, Mm. Mm. It starts in Bradford. You're in an English country and how many of the actual English people will go out and buy a sari. I just think it, I just think it's so sad, like in London, it has so many cultures, and like, wow, it's really good for the cultures to mix, but it doesn't work, No. because you have the Turkish in one, you have the Yep. Jews in another, and then the blacks, and you just think what a shame, if they all mix and you feel like, when I was in erm, working in North London, you had the Turkish and the Jewish people Golders Green. And then you had yuppies, but nobody mixed, and the feeling, if you went down to the Turkish In Golders Green. No, this was near erm, Stoke Newington, Oh. Islington area,and you felt really unsafe, and I just felt how awful. You know, here was a chance to er, Yeah. mingle, learn so much, and you don't. I thought it was a shame There's some coffee and some cheese and biscuits. And there's more wine as well. Oh my God. If you'd like cheese and biscuits with wine. Wine and cheese and biscuits and coffee. The coffee's in a flask, so it won't go cold. Oh, gosh, that's posh Can I serve any more coffee? There's chocolates as well. Don't need to Thank you. George bought them and you're meant to save them, and savour them tomorrow. Yeah, we go out, after we're gone and you can't be bothered to eat. Yeah. We had somebody round for dinner on Thursday and bought us a box of After Eight Mints and I think they lasted five minutes Really? I stayed up all night, Do you want some milk? Did you watch the film? studying. So I ate them as well. What do you do then, No, thank you. I opened a bottle of wine, I know this is a very strange question, but when somebody brings a bottle of wine, do you open that first, or do you open ? Somebody once said to me they think it's really rude if they didn't bring wine to a, to a dinner party and then they don't have to have to drink it. Somebody else said, well no, if you don't open the bottle of wine immediately it looks like I said this. accept it Yeah, cos you brought a bottle round here, when really weird. I think it depends. Depends on how well you know them, I suppose. I think it depends, if, if it's red, whether you've got time to let it breathe properly, and if it's white whether it's got time to, to be chilled properly. Yeah. What if it's really Charlotte. like a really cold bottle of white wine, would you. You haven't opened a bottle of wine, you've got one there, and I've brought in a bottle of wine. Would you think, I have to open Charlotte's first, because they brought it, If you brought a bottle of white and I got a bottle of white ready, if I hadn't opened it, I'd open yours. Would you? Yes, I would. If it was nice and cold or I'd put it in the freezer, then open the other one. But Well actually, we put ours in the fridge before we I, I think with four of you, you're gonna get through two bottles anyway, so it doesn't matter which one. like the other day, Charlotte, you brought you brought, did you bring white, you brought a bottle with you anyway. Did I? I'm sure. When I came round for coffee. No. When you came round No, when you and Ben, I think it was when erm, yeah, I think so, and you brought a bottle anyway. I'm sure it was you who brought it, and we didn't open it because we were eating, we wanted to have the opposite colour to what you brought,that what you very much, yeah anyway, yeah. so we didn't open yours, and when you left, I thought oh no, they're gonna think we're really rude, because we still got their bottle of wine, and we didn't drink it. No, I didn't think that, you see I don't worry about that. Oh, that's good. We had somebody over for dinner, didn't we and they actually brought a bottle of wine, and we said oh yeah, well, cos we know him quite well, we said oh what shall we have? Do you remember. And he said, oh what kind of wine have you got? And we said something really really cheap and he said, oh what, I think we'll start with mine, then. Oh really? Oh, Richard, Richard Yeah we were really embarrassed, he said, because I'm not keen on erm, I hate that I must say. ours is really cheap is it Aust is it Australian or Bulgarian or something. It was quite cheap, though, and he said, erm, I think we'll start with mine, because I always find Bulgarian a little bit acidic, and we'd bought this bottle, and we both went out to the kitchen and both said gosh. That's really rude. That's awful. Yeah. And, he was really rude about it. The best thing to do, is like, they bring what sort of wine,yo they want, and then put some in the fridge and then just say, look do you want dry or sweet. I'm sorry, does, does anyone want sugar? Yeah, that's it, they wont taste the difference anyway. Er Does anyone take sugar? No thank you. But that was really embarrassing. We went to some friend's house, erm, and I,th this was ages ago, I'd erm, done some wedding Claire, it's not too strong, is it? No, it's really nice. put some more water with it. I like it really strong. Mm. I don't like I'd done some wedding stationery for a friend, and I'd painted two hundred and twenty pieces, er erm, sheets of wedding stationery for her, with erm, bud roses and things, I think I might have shown you one, actually. Mm. Did I show you that? I saw them, yeah. And erm at their wedding reception, they gave us erm, a trad local bottle of wine from the bar, erm, she got married in a bar and they, apparently they've got vineyards there. Anyway, so they gave us a bottle of wine. We took it round to a friend's, didn't we? For a meal, and like, we were really keen to try this and everything, and we, we didn't, we sort of kept saying, oh shall we open this bottle tonight, and they said no, we'll save it for a special occasion. So we thought, go see these friends, haven't seen them for ages, we'll take it with us, and they didn't open it, and we were really upset, because we, it was a present wanted to enjoy it and we wanted to share it with our friends. Share it with our friends, yeah. So we went in the door, and just sort of said, yeah we had, we'd kept it ages hadn't we? And we said erm, we said, oh, we've brought this bottle, to er, because erm, and we explained, like whatever, Mm. I mean, to open it, they, they just sort of didn't twig, but like, they're the sort of people that wine, cos Mark's got a really bad influence on these people, he gets them he gets everybody really drunk. Everybody that comes into his house, sort of wobbl sort of wobbles out of the door. He's never short of wine. He's never ever short of any at all. He just keeps topping your glass up all the time, it's quite naughty, really. Like your dad. Charlotte's place isn't it? Alan's pouring the wine out all the time, yeah, you can't keep away from it, yeah. Nick's dad's like that. My dad's awful. He erm, he bought a wine box in, when they were in France. Oh that was awful, that was. And it was, it was really cheap, I mean, it was a sort of a rose and I think the whole box only cost him, one pound fifty, or something, you could probably run your car off it. But erm, but he just kept filling our glasses up all the time, didn't he? I think that between me and him, we got through the, nearly the whole wine box. And erm, Dad offers the wine I mean, you don't notice, because he's like hovering around you so often, Yeah, he sort of sneaks, sneaks round everybody when they're looking the other way. And after about seven glasses I think he from driving, I just, I just don't like, I got absolutely dad was driving, and he was like when he can't calm down, because my mum gets all like raged What do you so he could've, then he doesn't, he doesn't manage give them any more. Yeah. Instead of buying us a present, from erm, my mum bought me a few bits and pieces when they went to France. My dad got Phil a big case of beers. That was wasn't it? Oh, yes, yes, yes. That's great. It was brilliant. That's a very good idea, actually. We decided, some of our friends from church we were going down here. and car, get the ferry over, and erm, just erm, So we said to take Charlotte oh no, we did didn't we? It's possible. What are you gonna do about that? Well, I keep waiting for one of these free offers to come in the newspaper. Where you go for a pound. The Telegraph. Yeah, yeah. Is it the Telegraph? That's in the Telegraph. Oh it's the Sun as well, they do it. Really? Yeah. I don't care what newspaper it is, I'll buy it. You have to buy seven yoghurts so then you can take your car Yeah. Mm. It's good, though. I know that's good because we were all gonna go, cos I'm doing a French course last year at college, and we were going over with that one pound, you know each, with a car load offer. Who was that, they did erm, a trip to Holland for the last year, didn't they? Yeah, that was quite good. Yeah Well, I, I wanna go skiing as well, so you get more than a day trip. You guys I think you'll be going on your own, Phil. You been before,skiing. Yeah, I've been lots of times. Did you enjoy it? Yeah, I did. Yeah, I like it a lot. I wake up and I, I think about it all day long. I just, I just have got to the stage now where I've been er, I can't remember it's five or six times, and I think, I'm not going to get any better. Yes, you are. I'm not. It's ridiculous to say I am gonna get, like I as far as like, grace absolutely ludicrous. I would never ever ever look graceful coming down the slope. Yes, you will. Do you like going to dry ski slopes for lessons? I think, no, I mean been, I always had lessons every time I've been. I mean, it's not, it's not For the weak at heart actually go, then I when you got there No, that's true. Well, I think the thing for me is I don't feel like I have to look brilliant, I just like to have a good time. That's fair enough, but I just, I don't know, I'm just feeling like I wanna go and visit places, I don't want to be stuck in the snow. Cos, I have never never I used to be like that. been on hol holidays. I've always been skiing with my parents, so I've been to America to visit friends, and that's not been like sightseeing, or something, and I just haven't been anywhere, and erm, I mean, I suppose I've been to a lot more countries than a lot of people who've, you know, there's a lot of people who haven't did you say you haven't been abroad much? Did you? I haven't. No. I haven't been abroad much. No, right. That's alright. I've been skiing I know a lot of people you meet, and they just say, oh no, I've never been abroad. But I'm, I can't say I've not been abroad. I've been to lots of places, but I've never really been to visit countries and experience countries and, except for France, perhaps. I've been to Germany and Austria skiing, I've been to, er we went to Italy but I was, you know, I was quite a bit younger and it wasn't for very long. So I've been to Rome and places like that. The sights. You know, I've been to the sights, but I just feel like I want to go travelling, I don't want to go skiing again. No. I'd say, you might be on your own there. I mean, I do, I'd love it, if we went, I mean, I'd really enjoy myself, and have a really great laugh, cos that's what You would, you would, you liar. but, but, to me going, going skiing is just I mean like, it doesn't there's nothing different each time we go. You can have a good laugh with different people I think when you go skiing, you must go with a with a group of erm, group of people. Yeah, but you don't you don't need anything different though, once you get up in that mountain environment, you got this bright sunny morning Yes, but you could go anywhere in the world, skiing, and it will still be exactly the same, whereas if you go visiting different parts of Europe and the world, you always have different experiences. Yeah, you could pop up to Scotland for a few days. Blooming cold skiing in Scotland though, isn't it? They won't even walk down the road When, when you're skiing in the Alps,it's so hot, and you get, get such a lovely suntan. That's what we want. Have you been, Julienne? Yeah, there was a sunbed round the corner probably. March, he was, sort of, really brown. in their school trips. Mm. When was that? Why isn't, I just love being in the mountains, I mean, it's just, I daydream about it so much We went to erm,somewhere in France, To do skiing. Yeah, with the college I love going I know, ah to the mountains to climb and walk Yeah. And that sort of thing, because then you're really achieving something and you see different places and you go different places. Whereas, I don't know, I think just going up and down the same place every day brilliant fun, I'm not saying it's not, You wanna go on a summer trip to Austria. If someone said, you could go sk skiing free for the rest of your life, I'd go. I'd just think, absolutely excellent you have a really great laugh, but just wanna do Also skiing's bloody expensive, isn't it? Yes, exactly. Well, I mean, if we, if we did it with the free ferry, and there's a possibility we might be able to get fairly cheap accommodation if we drove over there and stayed. Really all we'd have to pay for is the fuel and the lift pass. So you can have a week's holiday for Have you got the kit? Well, I've got boots. I haven't got skis, though. You can hire them. You could borrow my dad's, though. Yeah, they as much as hire. You only have to rebind 'em. Doesn't make any difference , and I could borrow my mum's. There is a big difference, though You've been skiing before? Yeah, we, I skied in Cyprus. Because, you know, I'd never been skiing before, so I went out all togged up, with like, my tights sort of, like, you know, thermal tights and you know, pair of track suits, sort of bottoms, plus plastic overtop and then I had like, sort of thermal top on, plus the that's a sort of like, T-shirt, plus the polo-neck plus a jumper, plus a sort of like erm, a sort of sheepskin waistcoat and, and jacket and then this plastic thing over the top. about fifteen pounds. I was up going on the ski slope, and this is like, I've been up a couple of times before, but it had been really cold and bi and I went at Easter, I was so like hot, but it's still really good snow, and we went up there and I just couldn't believe it, I just went dad, erm, oh, I don't feel too good, and he just went, don't be so stupid, and Nathan and I collapsed, I was at the front of this queue waiting for the ski lift and the whole queue just went And this bloke comes up to me and goes, hi, I'm a ski instructor, I was just like hmm like, takes all my clothes off. Yeah, great. But then, it's a big difference between skiing abroad and you know, like staying somewhere like Cyprus skiing in Scotland, it's true, but I mean, it's like the first, I mean, my dad's typical, sort of, get to the top of the hill and give you a good shove, you know, give you one time to go down a bit slowly and then after that you just get to the top ski downhill phhhh. And you don't really learn that much because it's just a matter of get to the top, and put your skis facing down, and Survival course. survival course down and try not to take any trees. I've managed to erm, the first time we went skiing is when we lived in the States, we went to like, er, not dry ski slopes there, but it was like false snow, that's the same as you erm,they were really, was like eleven years ago, sort of like, technology hadn't quite advanced terribly much, you know, and these bindings, you had like, metal clips on the bottom of your boots, and you had to put the thing in and clip the boot, clip the thing round on the skis, to keep your boot on the ski, right, it wasn't like toe clips where you shove your foot, I know, yeah and put your heel down and it clips up the back, it was like Yeah clamp from the middle, and erm,I used to carry like down the thing and I just got really out of control, went all over the place, like skis up in the air and one of them came off and the thing, actually, ripped off er, bottom of my boot. Like this metal plate in the skis Oh, I see. I couldn't go anywhere. I only had one ski, and I couldn't walk down. So when my dad had to ski all the way down to the bottom, while I'm sitting on the side of this bloody slide. I was practically up at the top as well, I was really pissed off, just sitting there for like, for two hours, whilst my dad went all the way down to the bottom of this thing. Got this man to come up with his screwdrivers and his this, that and the other. His glue, to stick the sole back one. I tell you though, if you're gonna hurt yourself skiing, you can really hurt yourself. Because, I've, I've been in it, and I was like in these like, really tight ski pants, they're like a pair of like,like really badly, like sprained your legs. And I went over, and I like, I went, my skis stayed on, and I like somersaulted over and my skis stayed on and I pulled the whole of my leg, it was black from just above my knee to there and it's like just black my whole leg. But because I was in like really really tight tights, er like and then a pair of ski pants over the top er, my whole leg was like, you know, sort of soaked in and this bloke was there going, hee, that's pretty impressive and I was like, I'm not going to let him know I was crying and like got up and went to the top of the slope and I carried on skiing for about an extra half an hour, but like when I got home, and I just took off, my whole leg started, feet swelling as I took the like, the tight like leggings off. I was just like aargh. It is really a dangerous sport though, isn't it? It is, it is dang and people don't realize how, they're like oh the snow's soft, but Mm. if anything they're like a spray snow. So many people And the longer you get skiing really really piss me off, because it's the famous drink driver, it really is, I'm sorry, drink They should have big learners on the back as well Honestly, it really is, is too dangerous. Ski plates, neeow, neeow, neeow. When you, when you stop, at lunch lunchtimes, in the restaurant you get this big hot steaming mug of mulled wine and it's just so moreish, isn't it? Yeah, but a lot of that, a lot of alcohol evaporates off of that anyway, so it's not that alcoholic. You just die in an avalanche. I think I'd ski better if I was drunk, actually. I, I found I skied better in the afternoon, now. Was you like, scared? I was petrified the time I went skiing. Were you? Pick me up. It took me fifty five minutes to get into those awful to get up to the top. It was only a ten minute thing, and everybody, cos I was the last one, of course, out of us, a group of twenty, and was so like freezing at the top of this mountain, I wasn't exactly popular. During the day ah. She'd missed about twenty keeps coming along, When Phil and I, the first time we'd been skiing together, so that was last, not last year Two years ago. not since we'd been married, but, erm, and erm, it was in the March wasn't it, just before we announced our engagement. And erm, we hardly got to see as much of each other, because we were like, in this group of ten people, and then, and so like one time we skied off piste, and we just had this massive snowball fight off piste, it was like really funny. All these mouth full of snow, made you feel like, I was wearing, I was wearing er, cos it's really hot, I was just wearing er er, thermal fleece, and it was like the thermal fleece was actually covered with with it. Yeah. Nightmare. The time I went before that, I got erm, like a frostbitten thumb, because I was going up on the chair lift, and er, I dropped one of my gloves, and it was quite a cold day, so by the time I'd got to the top, and skied all the way back down, and then down the road going back to try and find me gloves, because I had borrowed them from a friend, Your hand had withered on you. and then, and then I got to the snow, chest deep, Black so I had to lie down properly and crawl over the top of it. Ah. I, I got to where, I got to where the glove was, and took me scarf off my hand and my thumb was just yellow at the top. Oh really? It goes like a, sort of like a wax crayon, where it freezes, and I put the glove back on, and you get, you get the hot aches, I mean, when the feeling starts to come back. It's really really painful. Yeah. Er, a couple of days later, it just split down like a banana, and Er. sort of pin, sort of half my thumb came away. Oh my God. Yeah, it was just, yeah, it was really disgusting. What did it look like, later on,like heal the skin underneath it? Yes, it's like a brand new thumb underneath. Four or five layers of sk skin, Er sort of came off. How weird. Look, no one going to have any cheese and biscuits? No. Do you want some more coffee? Yeah. Is there much coffee in there, then? I can make some more. No, no, that'll be alright. No. No, there is enough. Oh, don't, don't, don't go make any more. No, there's enough in here. Oh, right. Do you want any more wine? No thank you. No one gonna have any cheese and biscuits? No thank you, No, I can't. A drop more of wine. there is some more. Oh, yes please. half glass Oh, it wasn't as much as I thought. Do you want some milk with that? No, it's fine as it is, thank you. Erm, I'm not worried but Do you want any milk, hot milk any of you, Whatever. Well, if, if I make some more coffee. So you'll have to go back out and do that grinding Oh, that's a, that's a drag. If I make some more coffee, who's gonna have some? Yes, I might have one, then, Yeah, Ben, are you gonna have some more? No, thanks. Positive. Nick. Yeah, I'll have one. Hold on, it's worth making some more, I think. I'll have black Well, would it, would it ready by are you sure you don't want cheese and biscuits? Aren't you having something? No, I'm not. I'll have some in a minute. Oh, are you? Cos I was gonna I'll have some in a minute, too, Oh would you, oh, good, I'll leave it out, then. I love cheese and biscuits. It's sort of, if it's gonna sit there, and get nice and warm and Soggy. That's the way it should be, though, you should leave cheese out. Oh, really? Yeah, you should never Put it away to warm up, you know. Oh, fine, okay. It's quite revolting, now, isn't it, and when they, like everything in the fridge that's really cold, when it comes out I love the real sweaty Running everywhere. Like to see the mould growing on it. Do you like it straight out the fridge, well, I left it in the fridge, first of all,said oh get the, get the cheeses out, and I said, no I want to leave them in the fridge, I want those nice and cool. I'm like that, I'm like that with everything. I like it really hot or really cold I like it fresh. Like milk, Yeah. I love a nice tall glass of milk. Why does it have to be tall, that's what I want to know? It has to be tall to really taste nice. In a tall glass. and say. No, exactly. But, erm, unless it's freezing cold, I don't like it, but I just absolutely adore a cold, a cold long glass of milk. But if it's the slightest bit lukewarm, Er, it just makes me wanna throw up. It's true it's the same thing. I know, but it's, mm, it doesn't taste nice, does it? Okay, everyone, just stay where you are. Do what? My dad came round when we went to the theatre the other day, he hadn't seen it, since we put that picture up. Apparently,I don't know if anybody would know, you know, don't you. My grandfather was, is an artist and was head of Hull Art College. Really? And erm, yeah, and apparently his idol, as it were, is the guy who painted that, Really? And I erm, just picked that up in a garage some place, thought it was such a cool, I just really liked the picture. Easily pleased, if you ask me. Shut up. Oh, no, it's just a joke. I just thought it was a really nice picture, so I bought it, and erm, my dad came in and said, that's spooky, I know, my dad's going, oh, can't really believe it, you've got Edmund , I said. I hadn't even looked at who it was by. Showing my ignorance, and then apparently my grandfather's so into him, that he went round trying to find this book of his, his work, Mm. and then he went to a specialist book place, that can't find rare editions or whatever. Is it rare editions, or was it just a an edition of that? Either a rare or first edition, something like that. And how much was it gonna be? Four hundred pounds. Four hundred pounds for this one book. Really? Did my granddad get it? I don't know. Is your granddad still alive? Yes. Do you think I'm He must be alive At your wedding. No, that's my other granddad. The one who wanted to be in the film, when you were going cooee granddad. Yeah, that granddad lives erm, during the war, his father owns a erm, confectioner's business. Mm. So during the war, he didn't, he didn't go to war, he stayed at home erm, you know, he worked at, in like food and, and so they were Don't you wish you'd got an electric one now? It's a bit of a grind. Ha, ha, ha. Oh dear. It might look nice on the shelf, but it's a real Yeah. pain in the arse. Actually, I have to say, we got it first, it's one of those, I think it's corny, you know when you do something first, and everybody else seems to suddenly do it, and they come round, and say, that's really a good idea, and like, everybody comments on our coffee grinder and since we come to like, the church, like, practically everybody in the church has now got a coffee grinder. Like, in our church in our church back home isn't it? Is that a wedding Christmas card? Well, we bought it just after we got married, see. Isn't it pretty? Yeah, Looks, really nice. It's an antique, erm Really? It's a Peugeot. Made by Peugeot. Really? from Paris. From Paris. It is you know. Really Yeah, but it will last, won't it? I mean, yeah, I mean, knew they're that price. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah I've always wanted one, you know, the, the, the new names of the coffee grinder. They make the new trendy ones. Do they? Yeah, but they Do you think ours isn't trendy? Yours is very trendy, but you can fit the side of your kitchen units. Ah, like a like a mincer. Yeah, but it's a really, really weird thing, it's ever so heavy it looks as if it will be very hard to grind the coffee. But it looks really good, even if it doesn't I think, I think er some friends of ours have got one like that. Really? What Welsh ones. Yeah. Yeah. Very sexy. Yeah. Talking at cross purposes now. Poor Julienne came round the other day, and I Got a complaint about these sexy saucepans,reflected aren't they. Just like, yeah, rightio. I must say I had a big shock when I married Nick. No, it's Greg and you that got me on to saying that. Greg would be very impressed with the engineering on that. And charz are carzy to them. Sexy to them. Have you met Greg? You haven't met Greg yet, have you? No I haven't. Ben had to go to a brea a housebreak on the site. engineering on the site They were yes. Did the erm, I had to stay there. Claim, claim settlement, two point eight pounds leave. shop, and there's two blokes. It was a Sunday, I was so worried, I didn't know anything about , and I just have to sit there and we had to make conversation. Left us hours about four times. Oversized tubing, Yeah. And it's about two millimetres thick, and erm, Yes. Oh no. Flattened but wide, and round, flattened all where the joints just like the Eiffel Tower and they're sort of chatting saying, well, you know, I'm an American they were trying to chat us Movies, yeah. My, my brother is erm, is erm, manager of a do a magazine called Cycle which is a new one that just's come out. I just sat there like a real prat, and I thought Ben Claire to you. I know, I know you came by . Did you have a nice cycle? Yeah, erm, called the Cycle Book, I've got a copy erm, and so I got one from him, and there's quite a few adverts in there bikes. Have they and things like that I didn't have time to leave the shop. So I thought, well Ben done a runner, so I'm gonna just sit here. thinking, where is he, and then he came back I was so angry made me sick, because yeah, I'm saving for it, right. I, I really would like a bike,so badly. Yeah. Tell me, what sort of bike? I was so angry. Well, I'd like, I'd like one of those robust bikes,things like that, something like Yeah taking off after we've finished? Yeah, I have. car or anything. Shut up, shh What do you want, mountain or ? mountain bike, yeah Charlotte, but it doesn't matter. What hybrid or more I don't know anything about it,wh what is a hybrid, exactly? Sorry? That's alright, you're gonna It's a rose, isn't it? Ahead I entered a competition for one, the other day. Did you? Yeah. Do you think you're gonna run when you enter? Well, it's in this really little obscure shop I do as well. and they do a free draw every month for a er mountain bike. Really? Where is this? I'm sure that's why I never win anything, I've got such an intent to win when I ever I enter a competition, like I dunno. I think if I entered in, thinking like if it was in a good cause, Yeah. I'll donate some money there, you know, I might even win one percent of the prize at the same time, you know, I might have a chance of winning, but I always think, oh yes, only fifty P, you know, I'll win certainly. And then you wait and look for the post every single day. Yeah. date in your diary, you know, the draw's happening on the thirtieth of November, and you know, er In fact, we just, We I just think, you know the hundred thousand pounds. Yeah, it's really bad. Yeah. They have on these great big adverts, and you never win It's really amazing. I've got money, money in premium bonds and I've never won anything. I erm, I admit it, because it just really shows them up. You know that erm, have you ever seen, is it, I think it's I T V morning television when you've got Ross King, Yeah. morning television. Good morning T V. I was watching this No. No. Well, I mean, only once or twice and then, Ross King was like I don't know, I don't watch it every morning. Every day, isn't it? I don't even know what channel is was on, Charlotte I bet you jot things down before I meet you. No, listen, listen they, they have been She records it. competition, to raise a trip to, to, to I can't remember where it was, Don't have to get up now. to somewhere. I thought, well I, I might as well phone in for it. So I. If you don't want to listen I'm listening. You were asked to phone in, so, erm, so our phone was out of order, so I had a phone card and it had four units on it. Oh, Nicole. And it swallowed up my four whole units, because I even got to say what the answer was and I thought that was forty P, and I thought, I'm never ever going to phone into one of those things again. I've done it every week. I'm not sure, but I just thought, I'm just paying for someone else to go on that holiday. Yeah. That's the idea, probably. Yeah. Exactly. That's the only reason that they can afford to do it, and they make a packet on top of it. It's like jobs, you know, that have O eight nine eight Yeah. whatever numbers, you're, you're waiting That's terrible. and they're saying well and they claim there isn't a job at all. But the only thing what, I, I mean, I got through, it says hi you've got through to Ross King's er, blah, we're going to repeat those competition questions for you, and they repeat it all to you, and they, is your answer A bla B C and then, it's please speak after the tone, beep and then you say your thing and then, now would you like to leave your name and number You didn't have time. and then it ran out, sort of like swallowed forty P, before I even got to say what my name and number was. Yeah. I thought great. But then I, I still, erm, this question then, were you, were you with me? I can't remember I think it was Louise who br I went up to talk to her, and the question was,which of follow which of the following is not a swimming stroke and you have butterfly, breast stroke, bird crawl . Wh and I thought,if you can't answer that question, you really are fair sad y yo you know you shouldn't be in connection with the world. I'll repeat that, The attached name thing. and they take it so seriously. Which of the following are not a swimming stroke. Yeah. Yeah. Well, the thing is, it's so simple, Terrible. because they want everybody to phone in. Do you think that's why? Forty five pence a minute. Oh, of course. From each individual caller. That's how they pay for their prizes. A, explain the erm, First caller of the day. Get you to answer, that's the least thing Which Tibetan country, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah Swindon erm, Tibet. Baghdad or Solihull, or something like this, you know, slightly more difficult. This, see I just thought it was just cos, you know, and he kept stressing it, which of the following is not a swimming stroke, breast stroke, butterfly or bird crawl . Yeah. You know, you just think, why the IQ of the people who watch this programme. You start worrying about yourself . Yeah, why mum watches it. Also another thing is, when you phone up, it's like er you've, it's like on a time thing, so obvious well, not a time thing, but it detects whether you've said anything and how long the pauses are, Mm. so erm, and it said to me, erm, say after the beep, and I didn't understand quite where the beep was, right. I know actually. They say speak after the beep, beep. Like you know, you're sort of waiting for it, and then there's this now would you like, and I thought, I haven't given my answer yet, and then erm, and just leave my name, cos I think Oh it's erm, please leave your name and number, and the postal area code and I couldn't figure out what they meant, your post code, or what, anyway, I sort, I, I left this long pause, shut your face I left this really long pause, and it just like clicked off before I could leave my phone number, so they've got my, my answer and my names, but they haven't got my phone number, so I thought well, that's not much good, they can't phone you, can they? Oh, no. So you think, and so people must like do this, and then phone back, I'm sure it's not just me, because I can't be that thick. No. And so they get them to phone back, do you know what I mean? Like they make a mistake, or I'd better phone back, and then it cost them all that much money again,more money. Bloody joke, innit? You might have just seen through a really clever ploy there, Nick. It's a bit like your story, ha, your novel you're gonna write. I'm gonna write a novel. Are you? Yeah. What about? So sad, oh please, oh I shouldn't have said that. It's really horrible, he was telling me about it last night, and I was really scared Not this dream you were telling us about, was it? Oh, is this this psycho gardener? Oh, he hasn't told you about it, Yeah. I, I had this dream the other night, and it was so real, I thought I'd been to the cinema. It's about this composer, who's a complete maniac, psychopathic serial killer, the works, and erm, okay, and his music, is sort of really affected by this, and there's something really about this film, really dramatic classical music, and you know this composer and everything Jagged Edge, the sequel. Yeah, sorry, now erm all, all the way through this the, the, you know, is the usual business, you got this policeman, and you got the killer and you're trying to track, he's trying to track him down, all sorts of weird people keep getting killed and he's trying to track him down. Erm, eventually he tracks him down and kills him, I could probably stretch that all out. Who kills who, sorry? The policeman kills the The policeman kills the ser the, this composer. Right. he's a guy, a, a well famous composer Yeah. and eventually he's the killer and he gets killed, right. And, and the policeman, the, the film is just winding down, and everyone's going ah, you know, sigh of relief, and it's the end of the movie, erm, well in the novel, and the policeman is back in his house Whichever. and he's just sort of pottering around,wind you know, things winding down, and suddenly the gardener rushes in from the garden, starts trying to kill him, and he shoots, and he Jagged Edge. so the, so the policeman shoots the gardener and the gardener sort of, phworgh, falls onto the floor, dies. His, his personal stereo headphones get knocked off as he falls to the floor, and dinkly dinkly dinkly dinkly, The music. you could hear the music of this psychopathic composer. Ooh. Eerie. Eerie. I dreamt the whole thing, and it was so real. Really? Were you in it at all? No. Really? Nothing. He was, he was the gardener. I've decided, it not okay, it's the I was watching it at the movies, I was watching the whole thing at the cinema. What had you been doing that day? What? What had you been going that day? I'd been talking to someone about the effects of music, cos there's a couple of court cases going on. You should make it into a film, and I can star, I can be the girl. I was gonna say, this is, Phil's, Phil's going to direct this film, right. And we're I could be the I could be the er, F B I agent, Yeah. Yes. I'll be the psychopath, okay. Don't you think it's got some potential, though? Yeah. I mean, if you could imagine the visual of all the sound, the big cinema, If you've got a good imagination, if you've got a huge, imagination. laser guns. It's got a lot It would have to be really Entered in the right millions. Plenty of blood. Plenty of blood. Yeah, loads of, loads of erm,psychological Lots of gore. make it look really. But I was trying to work out how, how, how the composer should kill them, whether he Went into battle through the heart er did them with the piano or, or whatever. Or did he deliberately What do you gonna call it? Baton. Yeah. Baton Rouge. Oh, dear. Anyway, That's stupid Just about do that I think. Big cymbals Chippendales and everything. Yes. Okay, so it's only an idea. Hit to death by the We loved it. We loved it. We can laugh about it now. He's going on about it, even like, he told me that when he dreamt it, It's really bloodthirsty, isn't it? I mean, I know, and I'm really worried. I, I had another weird dream, It's funny, I have been having really weird dreams over the last three nights, and I never dream. I haven't dreamed for years, and I was saying that to the girls, I had like, three nights of a really scary dream. Vivid dreams. Really vivid, really scary. I had this other dream once, of me, and there's this girl I used to like, right, and, and the weird thing was that in, in our group of churches, you used to sort of like, got one guy who's, more senior, and erm, he had this daughter and my mum sort of fancied me marrying this famous preacher's daughter, you see, and I took her out a few times, erm How old were you then, er, knows? Sort of seventeenish, that sort of age erm, and I had this really weird dream, that we were canoe canoeing up this river and erm, You and the girl? Yeah. Right. This erm, wide Am Amazon river, and suddenly all these natives start appearing along the sides, and we could see them all these trees with nipples,and these guys started paddling after us, sort of chop our nipples off. That book sounds far better than the last one. What were your dreams, Claire ? my dreams, Cos they're horrible? Yeah. My erm, when I was little, I used to have this reoccuring dream, and it was really, really scary, and I just, I used to get really scared, I didn't want to go to sleep, in case I had this reoccuring dream, and what it was, was erm, I don't know, I, I think I didn't like swimming when I was little, so that might, what sparked it off, and I couldn't swim for ages I don't know, I think I will, actually . until I was quite old, and then, this dream was, going to the swimming baths, gets knocked over. and it being full of, of animals, most of them nasty animals, that would frighten you, like snakes and squirrels, I don't know why squirrels, and, and like I had a picture in my mind, I can't remember whether it was the swimming baths I'd been to, or whatever, like you know how they, quite often they have little ramps,or maybe they don't, but the ones I'd been to had ramps, stairs going up to them or whatever, Mhm. and you go up this thing that winds in and out and like there'd be cockerels sitting on the, on the little fences you have to go round, trying to peck you to death, er I was like only tiny, you know, it was just like It's very good when you're little then you you probably weren't very buoyant, so. really scared, and I just, yeah. But I just used to have this dream, of all these animals, and I had to go in with all these animals, it was actually full, crammed full of animals, that were all out to eat me, and, kill me, Oh. and have me for lunch. I used to, erm, you know like fairy tales Fairy tales can be very horrible and violent, aren't they? Yeah, they are. They used to have these, I remember watching, erm, The Little Pigs. And erm, How do you do The cartoon, and I, I was only I can remember, my dream was really vivid, I was standing up in my cot, and all of a sudden my bedroom windows flew open, curtains blew and in the window this bright light and then this wolf coming to get me, and it was the most scary dream I've ever had. It was horrible, I was in my cot and I couldn't escape. Ooh. Oh dear. After I got there was this lorry chasing me, and I was always running Lorry? Lorry And it always woke me up as the lorry hit me, and it really hurt, and I woke up I've never had, I've never had dreams that have actually disturbed me. I have. I've had some weird dreams, I used to wake up and think wow that was a dream. I've woken up . I've woken up and found myself shouting and woke my, wake woke myself up I wake myself up. I did that once. You're waking yourself up, yeah. Violent kick. you really are running, you know how dogs' legs do this, cos they're running after Ben's and he kicked me last night. I was just dropping off to sleep and you know how you're just thinking, yeah, mm what are we gonna do this weekend, and all of a sudden, Ben's legs went and kicked me really hard,and I thought oh my God something awful's happened, and you, you really do, you move a lot. You think as well, which is very irritating, ask some of you this, but Who would like some more coffee? Yes please. Anyone like some more coffee? Me, me. first. No, it's really funny, sit down. Have you got a cup? Sit down a minute. Erm, what was I gonna say, oh Laura, Laura, and you say No, no, nothing like that. So. My grandmother has like How do you like your coffee? Strong, please. My grandmother Milk and sugar. Oh, this is good, I won't talk My g erm, pressure behind the eye,yo fluid builds up as pressure at the back of the eyes, Right. and you eventually go blind from it, if you don't erm, don't catch it early enough. So anyway my grandmother has it and it's hereditary you see, so my dad's, my dad keeps saying to me, you know, make sure you get your eyes checked, make sure you get your eyes checked. Yeah. Now, I and I went to other day, I was having quite bad headaches from the back of my eyes, feeling like, you know, I had pressure there, and so, I think it was just headaches but I wanted to go and check it out, and I went to the, cos my dad said oh if you go to the opticians erm, they give you free checks as you've got glaucoma in the family, and erm, or glaucoma, or whatever you call it. So I went in, and they said, oh yes, but they're free on the N H S, if you're over forty, so I thought great, you know. Yeah. I've got another twenty years to go blind. Yeah. So what Yeah, exactly. Well, they said, I said well, so I've got to wait twenty years? They said well,you're not likely to have, to have it. I said well, yeah. Well, I didn't say this, but I thought, well I'm not likely to have it before I'm forty, but then, what if I do? anything, are you? Exactly. Anyway, so I, I was getting a bit worried about it, and, I can, cos I was having these headaches, and I started talking to Phil and I, I hadn't really said much to him about it. It was late at night and I decided, I was just sort of talking I'd say, I can't get rid of this headache, and I don't know what I'm gonna do, I don't whether I should just not worry about it cos I'm not that old,and I was really pouring my heart out to him, and he turns round and he says, yeah, you need a new clutch you really need a new clutch. I said, Phil,answers,and I said Phil and I started to laugh, cos I just thought, I wasn't going to get upset about it, so I just started to giggle. And erm, it was quite nice actually, cos I was getting really worried, Yeah. and, and, so I was just giggling away,talk a load of rubbish, and no no,you need a new clutch,forget it, forget it. I just turned over and went back to sleep . would you like some more coffee? And in the morning, he had absolutely no recollection of it at all. Mm. Needs a new clutch. No, it's terrible. I hate, it's so irritating because when I go to, to bed, I'm never tired. So I always sit up in bed for ages really wide awake, and I'm reading and doing all sorts of thinking like things, and I'd be talking to Ben, and he would say yeah, yeah, and he's really vague as well, and I, I get really angry and then I think you can tell because then you tend to lean across and say, are you alright, are you alright, and I just find it makes it worse. Mm. Do you see what I mean? I might, for Phil, for Phil to wind down, he'll come in, say we've been out for a meal or whatever, he'll come in and he'll sit down in front of the television. Now that to me is not Only for five minutes. I know, I just don't how you can do it. Erm, whereas I Are you alright? Yeah, sorry. erm, I like to talk, so he's wound down, you know, really sleepy, comes to bed, and I'm like, that's when I wind down by chatting away and saying, you know, little snippets of things that have happened to you during the day, and he's just like, oh, shut up, go to sleep, you know. And erm, you know I want to talk and wind down so I now exactly what you mean. I, I used to get in the night, didn't I? Mm. I couldn't sleep. My mum's like that, she gets up at Hours two in the morning I used to get up about three,the fire, and things like this, and I used to get really bored. Cos you know, obviously nobody wants to talk to you at three o'clock in the morning, fast asleep aren't they, not much fun is it? I used to get up and read, and oh it's so true. My mum wakes up and I wake up at two, because she's pottering around in the kitchen,, banging about a bit more than usual. mother are you alright? And she'd say oh, yes she gets up most nights now, in the middle of the night. Yeah, I know. How many hours do you need? Erm, I go through stages, normally I need eight hours' sleep, always eight hours' sleep, but I don't really sleep in. She doesn't feel sort of She goes to bed quite early cos she gets very tired with work. So she goes to bed early a couple of hours, Not really? All she'll do, is she'll sleep through to, she'll sleep through to like six, and then get up and that's it for the day. I know. Cos I just wake up in the night. I mean, if I can have twelve hours, then I'm happy. Really? But if I don't have nine I'm not worth talking to, really. We'll have to get a tablecloth. Nine? Yeah. Really? You have to have a lot of sleep. I really need sleep. Really awful. The thing is, that I can go, for then, weeks and weeks with like six or seven hours, Yes, that would be great. and then the first day I stop, I've usually got flu, I'm exhausted, I can't get out of bed, I feel rotten, but if I keep going for like, three weeks to a month, just on six hours, that's fine, but the first day I stop I'm like, in bed for a week ill usually. You stop what? Like six hours, seven hours sleep a night. I was saying, I need sort of eight, nine, and I could easily sleep for twelve hours. Oh, so do I. I could go to bed early and it's sort So do I. I'm terrible, if I've gone to bed really late, quite, you know, I just can't catch up. Mm. I'm awful, I mean, that's why I got up, you know when you phoned me this morning, and said, I am sorry, have I got you out of bed, and I was like really grateful, because I can't stand sleeping in. I always used to sleep in, until we got married. Then he wakes me up when he goes out of the door in the mornings. You were, you used to sleep in really late. Oh, yeah, I know, when I used to stay, cos Helen and I were as bad as each other, weren't we, though we didn't encourage each other very much to get up early. Helen was terrible. Helen was worse than me, I got up for Neighbours, I mean, she was really dead. Yeah. if she could make it. Yes, she does, she gets up in the middle of the day, doesn't she? Really? If she's got nothing to do, yeah. But she doesn't so much now, cos she's Yeah. But erm, now I get up at eight o'clock every morning, and this morning I slept in till ten, but that's cos I was up till four, working on Thursday night. God, what were you doing? Valponi Er,or not I can't really stay in bed past nine o'clock. Normally eight o'clock. In the morning? Yeah. I can't go to bed very early though, any more. I used to be able to go to bed early and go to sleep. Yes, cos I always used to go to bed a lot earlier than you guys. Mm. I say, the reason I think I had bad dreams, recently, in the last sort of three nights, is because they're the three nights I went swimming early, so I thought I better go to bed early. So I was in bed about eleven, instead of two in the morning. Mm. Which meant I probably was like awake to start with, because I, although I got up at seven, I still wasn't ready to go to bed at eleven, cos it was still too early, and usually I go to bed about two. Body clock's sort of Yeah, my body clock was like, still really really active. Cos usually I'm just like in bed, and that's it. and when I have to get up, I have to get up. changed about midnight whereas when I changed go to bed. Charlotte I'm much better at going to sleep with noise around me, though now, cos I can't tell when by body clocks, tends to shut your eyes, so I just blot it out now. I've managed to Been quite noisy upstairs. Not quite noisy, Often they come in about half an hour after we've gone to bed, so you're still not quite asleep. Yeah. Probably no difference Well, that's it. Yeah. tend to get used to. Yeah, yeah. I used to be constantly telling them to shut up There you go. I was a real pain in the arse, wasn't I? No, not really. The worse thing is, when I, I am desperate to get to sleep, cos then You can't. Because, because then you do, exactly, if they make any noise, I'd be like, will you shut up. And then that makes it even worse because you go round and round in circles, and you know and the more The more angry you get Exactly and I used to get really angry with Alison shuffling around, but they do it even, I mean, they've got to get their sofabed out every night, that sort of thing. Oh, right. And so, you can imagine the sort of noise they make, Lisa? people upstairs, cos they live in, they live in the space of our bedroom and bathroom. You're joking. No, My goodness. I know. What, and the, and Wh where the ceiling changes height. Yeah, where the ceiling goes up. There's from there back to the bathroom. From there to the bathroom. That is all they've got? That's all they've got. Oh, my life. That's just one room. I know. I mean, I don't how they put up with each other. So, when we, you can imagine the noise that they I mean, it's not their fault. It's not being any more noisy than we are here, but No, above you it seems more noisy. Exactly, and when they come in it's really loud. You know about it. And they're traipsing around the room, getting the bed out, doing this that and the other. We're amazed that we can hear the people downstairs, cos we can hear them like, you know, if you hear somebody above you, walking here dong dong dong dong, above, you can hear it for some reason, below on the ground floor. Even more, and it really, and if you are on your own, They must have a sprung floor, or something. it really sounds like someone's coming upstairs. Yeah. You think there's somebody on your level. Cos you didn't always hear it. It's only No. certain occasions. smelly substances as well. Yeah their illegal substances. Oh, no. Smoking illegal substances. They have, yeah. I coming up through the floorboards. Perhaps they're walking on the ceiling, that's why you can hear it. I wanna go now. You can really smell, can you smelt it, Claire I thought, I thought someone had been smoking in the toilets. Yeah. Is it? Smoking in the toilets, yeah. I didn't like to say anything,but Well, when I came in, I thought, somebody's Yeah, probably in the toilet area, kitchen toilet. Oh good, I'm glad we got that sorted out. I think, I think that, I don't think they smoke all the time upstairs, but like, in the summer, er, basically this place just had its windows and doors open all day long, every day. And erm, one day we had friends round, and I went into the loo it stinks of smoke in here, it was really bizarre, and I, I went, and sort of just thought oh, and then I went in again, and I really did smell, and I thought, this is really odd, and so when I came out here I said, did anyone else smell smoke in the ba in the bathroom, and they said oh yeah, I could smell cigarette smoke, and then, it must have just been upstairs, and it wafted down, and in through ours, cos there was no one else really around. It's just like really bizarre. Mm. Yeah, it was really strong in the loo, just around the loo. It was, really really strong. Especially in the toilet. That's why,and they were smoking out the window, er, up here. I don't know. Yeah. But I mean, sometimes our house does smell, friendly. And that's why Oh, that's a shame. Sometimes, I've never smelt it before, though, since Yeah, but I always remember in, in the lounge there was, always seemed to be weird smells. Oh, that's when they came to change the curtains. Mm. This place smells funny sometimes, and I really start getting paranoid, sort of, spraying air, air re actually. it's that kind of smell, he's into. No it does. You know when we came in the other day, you came to see the sofa? Mm. Didn't it smell odd? You don't remember? I don't think so, no. Maybe it's just me. You get paranoid, though, don't you? I don't like it being very stuffy. But because when you got the, you think you got the heating on and you're paying for the heating, and you open the windows. It's ridiculous. But I don't like it being stuffy, so this morning, I had all the windows open, cos it's nice and sunny and, erm, I had the windows open. But no, it's quiet, we can hear them down there can't we? Yeah, surprisingly. Oh, can you? But then again, we can only hear them at the moment, but there are six of them. Yeah, that's true. There's four. There's two underneath the two couples. Two living in their, our lounge equivalent, and two living in my bedroom, equivalent, and then I thought there was just of them downstairs There are, but they've got his brother, his, Sam's boyfriend's brother, and his girlfriend and then their friends as well and they're both, they're all Kiwis, they're, they're all over from It's really sweet. Yeah, but they're all over them. They're all gonna start to share, all gonna start sharing the place. They're all gonna start sharing the place together, cos it would be cheaper. Is that why they're moving out? Yeah, they're moving out at the end of this month. We've gotta have them round. Yeah. Really? Yeah. We feel really bad, we don't So they can leave us We haven't met any of the other people that live How many flats are there here? Thr four, including ou including ours. Well, we've met the guy who lives up above us, because he jumped out of bed, they've got french windows like we have, up above there, and he jumped out, and we were just sitting watching the telly or something, we heard these footsteps like going across the ceiling, it's as though we could see 'em, cos we could sort of hear it and feel it. Real weird. And we nipped out there, and sort of looked up at him, and it was like, oh hi, we like go, is it safe up there? Yeah. We had us some con weird conversations with this guy standing on our roof. Yeah, we hear this television is . Was it, yeah. Do you have to pay for your T V licence plus all the other flats separately? Don't know, We don't need to pay, it's per household, isn't it? We don't have to pay for ours. No. But I mean, per household, do you have to pay? Yeah, it's not is it? No. Individual. Bit of a shame. Mm. We think this is really disgusting, I don't know whether anybody noticed, but, on the back of the T V licence, we got our T V licence through, apparently if you are registered blind, you get one pound and twenty nine P off your off your T V licence. I know. Off, eighty three pound. Big, big deal it's disgusting, isn't it? What an insult, honestly. Couldn't believe it, could we? You'd think you'd get twenty five percent off, or something minimum. Get it free One pound, twenty five. credit. What, do they Do you get two pound fifty off if you're deaf and blind and blind. Feel the screen. Braille, braille television. horrible. Charlotte, you gonna have some I can't believe it. Sorry, I'm what, oh, didn't you know Erm, I was gonna say something. Erm, yeah, I was gonna say, it's not even just like listening to the radio, is it, because they're catering for the, for the sighted, they're not, you know, if it was on radio, they'd say more, but I mean, it's television, but Does it end up making sense No. television is a more visual thing You could listen to the news on the telly and it wouldn't make any difference, but if you're watching a programme, Yes. there's a lot of gesture Yes. and, and looks and things Yes. going on that you've missed. it would be a bit That's a new thing It's not as if they could read the Radio Times and see It's alright, leave it in the we need some time . Erm, I got interviewed on radio once, on, on television once with a friend and they asked, they asked us what we did, and this friend of mine said we were radio mime artists. Gee, thanks. Oh, no. Like we're really going to be taken seriously now. What was this for? That was with . What was it for? Don't ask who it was with, they asked you what it was for. It was erm, it was one of these sort of things, where you could go on and record your bit. If erm, if you got a thing that you're feeling uppity about. Oh, no. it makes on our W T coding thing. Yeah. The London Sport, or whatever it is. Mm. Yeah, but were you the sort of people that walk into hospitals and start praying for the sick to be healed. Really weird, honestly, when you, you really had the faith it would happen and it quite often Really? Yeah. But it's the fact that the guy gave erm, my friend Billy, erm, died a few years ago, erm, but they, they were like best mates and they used to ju just encourage each other to like, jump on a train and come up to London, and start going in all the hospitals and praying for the sick and things like that. Oh, they're really weird pe er not weird. That's down there in that photo with his wife. Oh, right. Actually, before he moved away, he, he gave up his designing job and he was working in for a bit. And erm, you don't know this, but when, when I used to go round there, he used to moan about all, no, he didn't moan, but Oh you did tell me. What about all the girls. The girls. The girls in campus, blinking heck Phil, they keep coming out in their underwear and saying, can you get me this size, or can you get me that size, you know, what am I supposed to do you know. Keep banging his head against the wall. He was a great guy. He phoned up, a guy erm, Head of er Air Canada. Top guy. He found out the guy's name, right, he First name. Yeah, first name. He phones up and he says, oh hello, can I speak to Tom, and then, and erm, this woman, receptionist, whatever, obviously thought oh well, he knows the guy Yes. so she him put him straight through and then goes, Mr Smith, erm, my name's Mike , er, you don't know me, but I'm a graphic designer and er, my wife and I are trying to emigrate to Canada, and erm, I'd like you to send me some business and give me two free tickets for it. Really? And the guy did it as well, sent him some business. He did a couple of hours' work, and he got two free tickets to Canada. Cos otherwise they'd never have been able to afford to go, so Wow. And it took him about twenty five minutes. How old is he now? He's now twenty eight. Oh, who was the one that died, then? Same age. No, that's his friend. Really? Yeah. Blimey. He was on a pushbike and he was sucked into the slip, into the strip blah, into the slipstream of a car lorry Ooh But he, he built up his own graphic design business, by designing something, say, Quality Street. He'd look at that and say, I think that's a really outdated adve erm, design. Mm. So he'd design a new one, and he'd write to the guy at Quality Street and say look, I think, I'm a graphic designer, I think your box is a load of rubbish, I've designed this, will you pay me for it? Really? And he built up a whole business just by picking famous names and saying, look I think your design is really outdated and it's not doing your image any good. How about this? Mm. I couldn't believe that he just about had the audacity to phone this guy up. Yeah, but that's how you get Yeah, exactly. I mean, that must be a thousand pounds' worth of air tickets. And they lost a fortune on their house, trying to sell it. And erm, It took him twenty five minutes on, on his computer, So he just and that was it. Fiddling around, yeah. He just gets Mm, if you don't know these things, if you don't try these things, you don't even you always do it, don't you Claire, you're quite happy to barter with people in these situations It's the way we got our house. I think, yeah, I think you need to be sometimes like that are awful. they saw our house Friday, and they rang me up, and I said look, you know, I've got, I've got my exams today and I really don't want to come up unless you see something, if you do, I will come up because they reckon it's a joint effort, if we're gonna live together, we've all got to see it and make a contribution to looking at the house. So anyway, they rang me up Friday night, and said, oh, seen this house, it's lovely and really nice. What's the arrangement? We'll meet you there at twelve o'clock Saturday, right. Right, I'll meet you at McDonald's blah blah blah. So anyway, we got down here, eaten sandwiches by then. and erm, Yeah. when we got down there, and erm, rang the bloke and he wasn't in and we kept ringing and he wasn't in. We just thought, they said, oh, we'll show you where it is, so we drove round there, and no, he wasn't there, and, so of course, we drove back there about four or five times during the day, and like we drove past there one time and there was a woman standing outside, she said like, oh what do you want, I was like, oh well, we've come to see the house . So by the end of the day, I was like, look I've come all this way, which wasn't totally true, but I said, look I've come all this way, the bloke arranged that he would meet us at this time, and he's not here, and like, you know, I've come two and a half hours in the car, and I've gotta drive home again, and we were gonna have a look at the house. So by the end of the day, we'd met Sam, we knew her, we'd been in her house, we'd looked around her house. We found out that the neighbours on the left hand side, who were in fact an elderly couple, and his son was working erm, and he had his own business working at home. Then we had erm, the other people next door, the woman erm, who was supposed to be a man-eater, we'd actually looked round her house and it was ident identical to ours and we looked, we looked all the way round her house and like, she said, oh yeah, all the building's the same but just in reverse and like, we met all the neighbours, plus the woman opposite hadn't seen the flat, I mean, what's wrong Of course you can. so anyway You can actually see but then, on the other hand, I'm not the sort of person who, I mean, if it's something like that I can ask people, but I've got friends who are quite cheeky, who will ask things, I mean, like if somebody does something for me, I'm like, are you sure, are you sure, you don't mind, and like, I'm like over the top the other way. But if you're just generally talking to people and not actually asking anything of them, Yeah. I'm very willing, but seeing as someone's doing something for me, I'm like you sure you don't mind? People get like actually annoyed and I just like what do you mean, I mean, you're doing it anyway, it's no problem. My mum's the sort of person who'll just argue with anything, if she thinks she'll argue with anybody, or anything if she thinks that she's being swindled, so like,she even went to the extent of having, they, we had an extension built, right, and she, we had it, only fair's fair, this one particular suite, we had erm, and they, they had this absolutely massive bathroom built,okay not specifically to have a nicer bathroom, but to have a very big room and erm, so they had two sinks, this sounds real extravagant, erm, Is there another glass out there? Where do you keep the glasses? Down, under There's one there. In the front of the bar cupboard. Yeah, it is yours. Erm, they've got two things, a bidet, a toilet, a corner bath and a corner shower on the other side, right? Is this in one room? In one room . Goodness. I know. It's, it's wider than this room, and it's easily from here to the end of the kitchen. Yeah, I see. No, it's not. What a load of rubbish. Philip, no, that's an exaggeration, come on, it's about as wide, it's as long as this room It's about that big it's about as long as this room, and probably a bit wider. But it just, because they had it, they had our, our double garage and that knocked down A quite big It is isn't it The bath must be the size of a sofa. Oh, yeah. Well, it's not that long, but it's in Yeah, well you know that sur with the surround and everything and if it's Oh, come on, let's not over exaggerate. Is this because they built onto the to have a big bathroom. Do you have to embarrass your parents bathroom. Well, what it was was, erm, cos my grandmother was very ill,granddad's sort of And they've got a, and they've got a sort of washstand in there. Can I. Oh , for goodness sake. How big's their Claire. They had a double garage knocked down, and built around the area, Right. so they just had building built on top of it, Right. and my parents had, Mm. because of that, they've got a very big bathroom and a very big bedroom, Right. because they just, two rooms, Right. put over the top of the, Yeah, yeah. yeah, garage. So erm, cos downstairs, we had it all extended, so we could have a disabled bathroom and that sort of thing and, Right. instead of going use the garage. I can't see the point of having a bathroom that doesn't work. What do you mean, a bathroom that doesn't work? Oh, sorry, sorry. Are you trying really to piss me off? No. Well, what do you mean? It was a joke. A disabled bathroom. Erm, Yes, it doesn't matter what I was saying, anyway. Is this, is this We know what you mean. Is it separate from the bedroom? It's not in the bedroom, it's Is the, the bathroom's not in the bedroom, is it? This is separate. Yes. A separate room. What I was saying was, just that like, they had all these pieces of furniture in there, it was supposed to be a suite, but my mum, my mum got round and tell you every single piece that was a different colour or the wrong shape, or didn't fit on the pedestal properly, or this and that, and she had the whole lot changed at least three times. Really? Yeah, and cos we had, we had the bathroom that was originally there, that they knocked through to build all this extension, was converted into a shower room, and she didn't think that the sink was right in that, and the disabled bathroom had at least two or three pieces that she thought bolshie in that as well, Really? and after just that they kept sending the wrong pieces, I mean, like they, they sent another piece to replace it, and it was it was just as bad, Yeah. my mum wasn't having it. Everyone else was just,everyone else could have all the faulty stuff, they may not complain, but I'm going to, Yeah, I have to stick to my guns, I'm paying a fortune for this stuff, why should I have faulty Exactly. furniture. Even if the whole lot's being processed like, perhaps it shouldn't be, and then of course your standards aren't good enough. So sh mum's had a my mother, but she's got what she wants. My friend had, they had er It's taken a year to get it all. What's that big kitchen fur is it Schr Schreiber? Schreiber. Yeah, they had them come and fit their kitchen and they really did pay thousands of pounds for it, and erm, there was a chip erm, one of the units on the top and they, they just fitted it like it, and my, their dad called them back and said, look you know, I'm paying thousands of pounds for this. That's got quite a lot of money off for it. They, they said well we can redo it for you, they said we can give you a reduction in it, and he sort of bartered with them, and I think he got, you know, a good couple of hundred pound off just for this little chip in the unit. I should think so. I mean, if you're paying for these things, and you know, fair enough. My parents had fitted cupboards and wardrobes, you know, fitted like throughout their room, it's like, the normal two cupboards on one side, the cupboards above, plus the extra fitting and like wall fittings and, then the back bits by the bed, and then they had stable door and the big long dressing table and the end unit, and they actually bought different side panels for different wardrobe fittings. Like they got, I don't know, something called Shadow, yeah. which was like sort of beige colour with gold erm, handles, and they sent a sort of bluey colour side rails and top, and thought they, they'd get away with it. I mean, they were actually looking at it and we were going, but it's not the same furniture. Yeah. No. And they were like, oh, oh well, what you mean, you, you're not prepared to have it. And like my parents sort of went, the thought that they gave them money that we had for it, yeah Yeah, exactly. Yeah, it's like you could actually, I mean once my mum had pointed it out, I'd never had noticed, but you walked into the bathroom and you thought, yeah, Mm. they are different colours. But like, obviously the bath and shower, cos they're plastic, they're not going to be exactly the same colours, so that's quite good, you can get away with that. But the two sinks the bidet and the toilet, were all like different shades, and you just like, yes, but is this all supposed to be the same thing. yeah. And like, in the di in the disabled bathroom the, the er, it's not on a proper pedestal, so it's sitting on it Mm. it's just got a bit to cover the pipes, so it just like, sits on the wall, so that you can get a wheelchair underneath. Mm. and it's much lower down, and this thing, it's like a gap, it's like this big around the bottom of the sink, so like it wasn't even touching the sink, the, the pedestal bit under bits underneath, it's like, it had a sort of similar sort of shape, so it should fit, but it was like, a massive gap underneath, like no Yeah. I think a lot of people tend to put up with things, don't they? Well, they do, that's right. Don't like to complain. When you just think, the number of houses, not everybody can go through that, cos otherwise they would have done something about it. Yeah, that's true. Mm. In fact, to happen time and time again. Mm. It's like when we were in Cyprus, the amount of things that you can actually barter for. Do you know what I mean? Mm. And like, they'd say, this was so much money, and mum would say, any chance of a discount? And I think by the time she'd finished it would be half price, she'd walk out with the thing half price, and she'd say, well you know, it's just, they make up prices and you go to another shop and it would be the half price marked, and you go into another shop it would be, you know, over there. Yeah. That's what their, that's the whole way they trade. Over here you know, it's marked up that, and you just don't dare to But then the thing is that my mum comes back here, and she's buying and she's like, any chance of a discount, and I thought mum, because she's like so into that lifestyle, now, Yeah. like the culture, but it's amazing how many people, even in England, if you do have the audacity to ask Mm. they will say, oh, alright then. And they give a, though she's not being like, really cheeky, it's because she's been living in a culture for four years, where that's the way they, they sell and buy. Mm. But because she's back here, she still sometimes does it, and in fact they do do it for her. If I'm in a shop and I find something that's slightly faulty, and I think, well I could easily fix that. I go up to the counter say, erm, I'd like this please, but it's actually got this tear in it, or whatever's wrong with it, erm, can you give me some discount? But a lot of places say, well, is there another one that's alright. Yes. Mm. And so, you They'd rather sell you the full price, yeah. Yeah, exactly. say that about Some, some places say oh, yeah, alright then, I'll give you such and such off. It's the big warehouse places, you know, the big stores that aren't interested, if because Yeah. it's all mass produced and they might as well not sell it to you, and send it back to the manufacturers and get a full discount. True. Yeah. Sometimes if you offer to pay for things for cash, you get a discount, Mm. because they have to pay, sort of, two or three percent on Yeah, we did that, when you bought our erm, and things. when we bought our chest of drawers. Mm. We got twenty five off didn't we? Yeah. Really? Yeah. But I think that was I never ask, I mean, that's really stupid of me, which I, I wish I did, I just always just, I don't know, I'm really stupid like that. Never any harm in asking, though, is there, as you say You ask. Pardon? You ask. Haven't really You remember have you. Well, that's the thing, I think it's the English attitude, of It depends, it depends on what it is, doesn't it? oh don't, don't ask, because you don't want to look as if , Yeah. either you haven't got the money or you don't want to Yeah because people look at you, and just like, oh gosh how scummy. Well, it's just that, But it's not. I wouldn't I wouldn't even think of asking. Mm. The best thing to get richer is like, going round car boot sales, like my mum, she's so funny, dad said she's a different woman, she's just like, cos when Phil and I erm, were engaged, we were trying to save up money, so we, oh and like we'd sell off all our old stuff, so just give me of money, and then, we got these and my mum was pricing everything up, and she's going, if someone asks for a discount, don't, just don't give it to them, she said, everyone's going round pricing everything up and erm, when they come to you, they just, they just want things for nothing. She's going on and on about everybody wants something for nothing. And she's just like, this really officious and then, she just said, everybody goes round, and they try and get the cheapest price and they go back to the place that are giving the cheapest price, whatever. She'd say, stand your ground, don't, you know, sort of like, then she goes round to everybody else, trying to get everything for nothing. Yeah, exactly. Funny, though, watching people, Yeah. cos I mean, I had to help my dad with a car boot sale, this is a man who doesn't buy anything erm, secondhand People just turn vicious. Really? would only shop in Harrods. And there he was at a car boot sale, it was like Well, it's amazing what people will buy. I know. You get couples who shop together and then they get addicted to your car boot, and they want everything and it's quite amusing. I've had people, I've, I've driven up and it's in the pouring rain, and you've people just, they hoard round your car as you drive up. You can't actually get things out of your car. And you take out a box of stuff and they're sorting through the stuff and you're like, excuse me, and you're trying to get your tables out you know. and your things put on, Mm. and you know, all this sort of stuff, and they won't even let you get things out the car, I mean, they are in your car it's like And then you all go round the car boot and they have their own car and they'll be selling your stuff out of it. I've had people come up and buy records and tapes and things and they've gone back to their stall which is all they sell is records and tapes. Right. and they've priced them up. Honestly. They've bought them off yo them off you, say for three pound My gosh. and selling them at seven. Crikey. So you really have to keep an eye out. You gotta know what you're on about. Yeah, exactly. I mean, I got wise to it after a while. Yeah. I had some guys come up, and they were, they were really pissed off with me because, my mum sort of like, this guy just done this with th th the stall next door, but he left some stuff that he obviously already had things of, which he didn't think it was worth him buying, and this guy came round, and they were obviously from one of these, you know how you get erm, secondhand erm record stores yeah. yeah, actual, you know, shops that and erm, there's these two guys together and they were really trying to intimidate me, I mean like, big stuff. They, they priced everything up, and they said, right that's eleven pounds, what can you do me for. I said, I beg your pardon? Said, well what price would you give me? I said, the prices are marked on the thing That was provided by erm Oh yeah, it's really good. It really picks up things very well. Yeah. Yeah, it's excellent. Yes, they're really expensive to buy, they're about ninety quid to buy. You'll just have to what, those walkmans Yeah, 'cos that's got a radio you can use with it, as well. Mm. You can use it for an interview. They don't usually have record buttons, do they? No. Mm. Well, last night, I went through all the different topics, you know, the composer situation. And I went through them and I I narrowed it down to three things now. Task or topic What you were gonna Mm. do in your essay? Either that I thought you were reading the Alchemist or something. I was, but I erm, Well, I finished that. Oh, good. Finished it all, and then, I just decided then I sorted out my washing, and then I decided what part I was gonna do, I'd narrowed it down to either topic, task or topic erm, stable features, which are, sort of, erm, self confidence and things, and erm, how you you express yourself, and then a third one is like sex an and gender and age. Do you have to do all this from the tapes that have been recorded. Well. Yeah, you're meant to do your own recordings. If if not, you supposed to record, they're supposed to be, in fact, two minutes, and I couldn't read, 'cos two minutes is about half two sides of of transcript, so that's all we need really. So it's otherwise, it would be just too big to analyse. Plus, all us, we had to do erm, transcribe five minutes. Well do you know how long that would, Mm. can you imagine how long that would take, it would just be impossible. We were o on and I thought, no way, and then Marianne said, no, it's ju , she said, that's too much, we'll be, and like, erm,, we'll knock off er, five hundred words of your assignment, if you do five minutes of thing, and that's, no way. , really. you're gonna do well over five hundred words, bloody writing it out. so Marianne well, she said, she said, well okay then, do five hundred. Like both sides, to do like two and a half pages. Well, I don't mind doing that. Thing is, they say, take half an hour to transcribe two minutes, but that's probably by professionals anyway. It does, the thing is, if you've got a lot of speakers Mm. Becaus I mean, the the one I've got here,the one I've got, erm, er that I taped on Saturday night, there's seven people on it, and they all keep cutting across each other on it, it would just be impossible. Mm. Was it a good conversation, though? Bet that was good though The effects when listening back to it. How are you It was just like being at the cinema, but it's just like being, it's just like being in the room again, because of the conversation's back. Was this seven girls, or No, there's there's Phil, and erm, Nicole's erm, the girl she lived with last year, her and her boyfriend came. Oh. So there's two blokes and five girls. And we, it's really funny because of we started off the evening talking about leg waxing . The conversation keeps coming back to leg waxing at every quarter of an hour, it's really funny. Really. Yeah. Oh my God. No. Who does it then? And erm, I was telling my mum and dad about that, No, everyone was bringing it back, it was, Ben from bringing it back to it. And Claire did, and so did Charlotte, it was really oh. I I told my mum and dad about that on Sunday, that she's got a leg waxing machine. I said she had been trained properly, I was telling them just basically about Claire in general and just about the good of erm, things like things you like to talk about, and erm, so I just, I said, they cried poverty, I said, but you know, one minute she's driving her old banger, and the next minute she's got a K reg and outside the , And then I said, then she'd been bought a a hundred pound of leg waxing machine. Does it look good on. I hope She shares it with her mum. I don't think her mum uses it very much. 'Cos I imagine it to be really sort erm, medieval Hi. Hi yeah. really, really old. I don't know, I I d , they're very expensive, I should imagine. I wouldn't bother with one. Hi yeah. Have you seem them, then. Yeah. How are you? Fine. No. Arr. What is that? not the only one. That's nice. You got your tickets? Mm. Oh, that was quick So you've got to flog another one to someone. No, no, no, Kerry's coming, erm, Oh, that's good. she's in Northampton, she's Oh, right, that's good. And she said she'd come. I've just phoned her up just to tell her. Jolly gee. I'm gonna see on Thursday, Are you? afternoon. How much did it come to? Only five fifty, I think. Oh, really. Yeah. What is it? It's called Two Gentlemen of Veronna? Ohh. I don't know what it's about. I think, Is it good? Mm. It's meant to be really funny, Yeah. and it's meant to be a really good production. Is that the R S C? Mm. Oh, that's good. Yeah. Is it in the pit, or is it in the the theatre? I don't where it is, er Nicole just s said, do you want to come, and I said, oh yeah okay, it's only gonna cost a fiver. Yeah. lot of things, if they weren't erm, we're doing theatre and drama next term. Oh, right. so. Actually, I I want, don't know whether you want interested in coming, I'm not sure whether I wanna go, but either next week, it'll have to be next week, 'cos I think after I won't be here, I'm going home. There is a play showing at erm, The Orange Tree, it's by Faye Weldon. I don't know whether you Oh, yeah. She wrote, The Love and Lives of the She Devil, and she's written it, she wrote it especially for The Orange Tree Theatre about ten years ago, and now she's re-doing it, It's already recording, yeah. Now she's re-written it, and er, it's gonna be shown there, and it's only, seats gonna be about a fiver, if you go, er in the afternoons. If you were going. Mm. Where's that? The Orange Tree erm, Theatre. There's a play on by, it's called Mr Director. It's on by Faye, it's written by Faye Weldon. Oh. And erm, I want to go and see it Well, I'll go on my own, if need be. I'm just asking if anyone's interested Yeah, I'll go. I thought about going on Monday. Erm, the twenty-sixth, I think. Let's see if I go home, yet. Yeah, well, I I I might, it might not be definite, but I think they want to go and see it before it goes on, and it's only a fiver, and I'd really like to see it. How, how are those things made. It's got erm, it's with the same Sheba, Mm. Erm, I just went upstairs, to see if I've got a blank tape, and I haven't got a blank tape. How did er T V go this morning? Excellent. Yeah, what was you doing to him, Camera C. So was I, I was doing camera two. Excellent. It's brilliant, innit. Really, really enjoying it. Oh, that was erm. Turn it up. Oh it's not fair No, I love th , erm the acting was excellent this morning. Was it, oh good. Have you managed to get lots of volunteers to do your outing with Mary and Fiona. well,sort of, erm. nurses, yeah are you doing the same things. Yeah, the same thing. Erm, 'cos I I didn't put an at all, and like the three blokes, there were only three lads and us anyway. So, so they had to do it. What, that's a bit out of order, innit, poor sods. They sort of went mm alright. Yeah. So they did it, and erm Is it a play? Yeah, we did Yeah, we had to call it, Lear's Lily Lily And, her nurse. And I just kept quiet. And erm, I just sat there and thought, I'm not doing it, Yeah, if they ask me, I'm not doing it, I'm sorry. And erm, And I really like, really work psyched myself up for it. And who did it in the end, who's doing it? Erm, Alice said she would do Lily, So you had to ask actual Oh, yeah. erm, and Martin and Den had already volunteered to be in it, Yeah. and then, David, was so- sort of bludgeoned into doing it. oh. David Brush. David Brush, and we we're still wa we're waiting on a Lily, so I think we might be asking Naomi to do our Lily for u I mean nurse er, nurse for us, 'cos we haven't got a nurse. Well, there's so part, you know, what I thought, I really would like to do to camera, and I was a bit, thought, well, everyone's gonna want to do camera so That's what I thought, and nobody wants to do it. Nobody wants, no, and I I started our first one, and I said I would, normally I I put my hand up, 'cos I wanted to direct. I'll do it . Yeah, and erm,yeah. quite nice as well actually, because there's not that many shots, and there's a nice break between all of them, isn't there. Yeah, and there nice easy shots, really. Yeah. Yeah, and erm, Sounds cools, doesn't it. I wish I could have a go. It is really I loved it, I was really enjoying it. I thought, yeah, this is what I wanna do. Have you got erm, you know you have the screen, and the monitor screen, have you got s , you know like they have on T V, the the writing that comes on, sort of, like a telephone number comes on the bottom of it, is it, have you got that, special things like that. Yes, you can do that. What, what, You can do, you can put you can put like credits up and you can put, you could put Mm. a telephone number up, couldn't you? It's just superimposed on the bottom. At the bottom of it, yeah. It's amazing what they can do, innit. In a way, I wish I was doi I wish I could equal acting on T V. Do you? I really liked I liked to do T V, I'd like to do camera work. Yeah. Would you have to go to university. Yeah. or just six weeks. No, it's for, it carries on till the end of semester one. What's art and techniques, then? Living theatre. The living theatre takes up, it comes up in the living theatre. The living theatre, yeah. whatever it is And do we then stop our majors or what? I would imagine so, yeah, I think, then you pick them up in year three if you want to. Which meant if I did it in year three, which I'd liked to, then you'd obviously equal or went into drama. 'Cos I I like my English, I don't want to er, I don't know, I see how this year goes. Or m minor my English. Well, it all depends how it goes. Yeah. I mean, at the moment, I don't know if minor isn't, if if you minor English, isn't it just major authors, Yeah, that all I w Is it? That's what really pisses me off, 'cos I'd like to the whole Oh, really? that's what I didn't know. I wanted to fo major authors. But I would rather not fiddle around with other, I'd rather have not done tha well, no I wanted to do language when I when I put my options down, but now, Mm. You're not No. doing No, you're doing the same as I am, aren't you, yeah. yeah You can't go to college. Er. You can't go to drama college, can you? Yeah. Yeah. You can? But Yeah, you can go on a major or equal, can't you. I thought perhaps then you just can't single. make use of them. No. no. You just can't single in any of them, but next year there doing single language, aren't they? Yeah. drama Or they're doing single They're doing it now, they're doing Single Irish. I didn't think it was all subjects, I thought it was just history No. I thought it was like history and English and erm, the tape with that one we just do well gone the same than bloody English, then I think I'd go abroad. Yeah, I'd go mad I like to do Oh, yeah. like geography, I wouldn't mind doing that 'cos I'm used to it. But erm, you know the English, the major author's list can you try and find it after this. Yeah, I'll do it later. 'Cos, if if, if you can try and find it before I go, if not, if you can't find it I'll What do you want? I want the list of the major auth , yeah We doing Dominiques aren't we? We're doing Dominiques next week? Erm, did you put that on the Bugger. Bugger, no shit. God. You might have put it on the word processor and she could print off What? a copy for everybody. Can you do it now, please. they've lost their copy. I went up last week, and erm, everyone, there was no one there, so er. Erm. I rang my mum, because she didn't ring me last night, Why didn't she This is just while I remember to tell you. Right. My dad answered the phone, and I said, erm, you know, hello, is everything alright, blah, blah, blah, and I said, dad, why didn't mum phone me last night, and he said, probably because she can't speak. Oh, no. what's wrong, ah. yeah, this, Ah. from this infection Ah, no. she's had. So erm, he said, she'll, she'll ring you, he said, she'd here, but she'll ring you later. are you all right, mum. I'm all right, all right. through the nose, yeah. No, erm, she sent off for some curtains Yeah. oh wow, she sent for some curtains Some curtains and carpets for us. Has she? Yes, posted Thursday. what? I don't know when we'll get them. computer I'm sorry but the tape while you're otherwise I'll Oh, that's good. Yeah. So you didn't, you didn't upstairs. Yeah I thought, Oh God, don't let anything has happened, anything me. Just like to get me tannoyed this morning, thinking something's wrong, something's wrong they haven't phoned and they don't want to tell me. You read, what was it, something Oh, like, when erm, David died, she wouldn't phone me because I know. she was like, when I did phone, you know, she was like, I really wish you hadn't phoned. Mm. and I was thinking, oh great. So, erm, you know, I always thought oh, she's with the dog and that. but I heard it all later. She didn't Did your all right. Yeah, she was just worried about annoying me, I'm like, affect really,is that alright, I hope she's gonna be alright. really annoyed about. Yeah. Yeah, I save that Yeah. pictures can't we We can go now look after my dog. We can always go shopping or something. Yeah. Window shopping. No. No. no, but she sort of said, about her mum and dad, I mean, it's true, 'cos her dad was on overseas pay and he was in Cyprus, and it's it's different now that they're back in England. Obviously they don't need the same kind of money, but her like they don't get a don't get a grant for her or her brother, Don't they? and it's less than what they were receiving come to, and that's what he was getting, and now he's getting a lot less. Mm. but they don't do that, do they? the year before, don't they, so if you don't get any money the previous year,through. I hope that doesn't cause yeah. It's a good idea, why not. Wag's in. Oh, where is he? erm. Yeah. Oh, he's hiding in the is he? Try it first heard it's really good. He's eaten it cold, though. Oh, I'd eat it cold. I'd love eating I had roast parsnips, brussel sprouts, carrots, and boiled and baked alaska,and it was really nice. I had Oh, was it nice? I had broccoli, and cauliflower and Ohh foods oh, slow down. Must be what. oh dear, they getting him christened already. Oh dear. No, I mean the traditional Isn't it horrible when you don't know what to pay for things. Mm. How is it. Your dad. Well, it must be pretty soon. They wouldn't have done it in What? Dale's dying. What soon? No, I wouldn't think it would be soon. They're concentrating on it a bit now, aren't they. Yeah. Oh, his dad's died. What did you say? died . I hate that top she wears. Twiggy. I've been in Twiggy Porsche. My claim to fame. Been in Twiggy's Porsche. Have you? Shh One of my dad's friends, one of our friends at our old pub, owns it. Mm. This annoys me. Sorry, go on. It was a crap heap, really by the time he'd got it, but you know, it had been a good car. It just annoys me, the way they don't tie their hair back in the coffee shop. It just drives me up the wall. Yeah, yeah. it's a bit unrealistic, isn't it? Aw. they op they did about that in Neighbours, aren't they, they had the Yeah. the basic developers. It really gets on my nerves. But none of them tied with their hair back. No, that's true. Especially, that thing. Different hygiene things out there. You would think, you know. Yeah, it is bad. Could at least tie it back. I really don't like his character any more. Sorry? I really don't like Greg's character any more. Oh, Greg. Yeah. Yeah, he does, dunne he,the cleaner or something. She's become a right mumsy type, like erm It's one thousand six hundred dollars, though. Is he trying to flog them thingies. Yeah. Yeah, Adam's actually said he can join him now. Oh, no. They're splitting profits, fifty, fifty He hasn't been in it for a long time. That's because Yeah. Up on top of the counter. Yeah. You can at the back. It's a bit erm,takes so much alcohol isn't it, really. I love it when they start talking,in the street, they have to sort of, adapt to it, don't they? Yeah, Yeah, because of suddenly they're Sometimes their children are with the camera man, don't they, and you can see them going coo. It's something like with Birds of a Feather, and Dorian just burst out laughing, you know, she went, hahaha, I think it was down as part of the script, What was that? On Birds of a Feather, and Dorian said something to Sharon, and er, then she said well, and she just went hahaha. from er jug, but I part Yeah. that sounded really good, I thought you know. Yeah. Oh, who's that girl? It's like a little girls things innit. Yeah, but of course they went to the right Yeah, that's true. I don't little boys in in gowns. My mum has in sort of, erm, little sort of white suits Had a dog on it. It was really nice, but,about. Eighteen months. Have you? She's gonna have a pink little dress. Oh. Who's that girl? Yeah, I was just gonna say that. It's like erm,to have funny name. No, I just saw her, did you see her a minute ago. Yeah. Or was it No, it was on the titles. Yeah, she was on the titles, wasn't she? She was, yeah. 'Cos I Oh, you're never gonna guess what's on today? Original cooking,today. Er. What's her name Is she with Erm, no. I said good luck. I thought they Oh I see. he's watching you You know you got Bobby there, and Alf's just talking and that's just the sort of kid he is He's a sod ain't he? Has erm, Irene gone? Yeah Oh, he Oh, he's quite cute, innit he? Yeah. She gonna fall in love with him, is she? With the dog. Well, some, some sort of link we're meant to get there. I'm not quite sure, that was for some reason. Ar. Sort of, like when your combing your hair, innit erm, in the bath keeps on, do my hair, do my hair. Me mum puts all ribbons and stuff in her hair Aw, isn't she cute. Wow. Yeah. this morning, yeah. I haven't been doing much on Sunday. Did you, did you see the girl in front of us. Do you think she had coloured hair? She had the straight, straight hair that had a reddy tinge on it, it was really nice. No, it was there was the girl who had hair down to about here. I mean it was a gorgeous colour. describe it, it was brown, it had like red in it as well and it was so curly, it must have been natural. Really? But it was just tiny, tiny ringlets all the way down. Yeah. It was really thick and bushy, and came out Bet she hated it I don't know, she was really petite and very attractive and together with the hair Yeah, but you don't really get like that. At erm, summer camp, when I came last year as well, there were sisters, and the oldest one was about twelve, the next one was about ten, and the next one was about eight and they they were half cast, I'm not qu quite sure,the their mother was sort of, she's dark, she's sort of half cast, and they've got, they all very very attractive girls, with such lovely hair, just corkscrew, it's really lovely, and they come out the erm, swimming pool and they bring their their erm, shampoo and their conditioner with them, and do I can't just see this the family look. The woman was erm, was Chinese and the husband was ginger haired. Really? The children had this sort of, red gorgeous colour hair oh, you know with the Chinese faces, Oh. Japanese erm, boy and girl as well, and they were just adorable, just so good, such lovely looking children Japanese children. It's lovely Yeah. fed up, I'd rather I'd like my children to have red hair, actually. Well, not red head,isn't red, but the same colour hair as me. But you don't know, do you, because sometimes it all depends because I'm like the only one in my family, Yeah? Joanna's hair's dark, then Hazel's darkish, Maria's got brownie hair. So they're all dark, really, aren't they? Yeah, and then Brian's sort of got gingery tints in his hair, but my dad's still brown. Oh, who's the ginger hair then, or was it Hanna, Richard Is that Mm. I think it's Yeah, I don't know Oh, not much. finished starts a long way back, don't it? Yeah, it does, doesn't it? She sort of isn't she. She looks like a bloody dog. But her hair's not that she needs to get She's a but it's too harsh. God Surely Greg's Yeah How old is he then, seventeen? Mm I don't know, he might be sixteen. Yeah. Damien doesn't exactly look seventeen, does he? No. You know, he looks like Oh, what, he's so sad. Every time they're running short on the story line, they have some sort of competition. Mm. remember they had that erm, competition for the surf man. Matt was in it and Adam and it was a race, and erm, the teacher, Hey, you know that I don't remember that. Mm What? What did you Yeah, shag. I went to see her in panto, honestly, she was terrible, she whined yeah her voice was even more marked Aus Australian than it is on here. Really bad Do you think he's odd, do you think he's a weirdo? Don't know It's it's the christening dress Oh, it's the christening dress. Yeah, it's Right. It's an antique and that bloke's an antique dealer, he's come to nick it off the line and flog it for thousands. Something naff like that. oh No Never mind what hey hey Ha He just can't help himself,can he. No. You'd thought by now they would have sorted it out. Yeah, it's a bit ongoing, isn't it? Are you okay? Tug bloody started it. Did he start it? Oh, Bobby back. Come on, Tug, don't worry Ah. It goes on and on. Greg does provoke him though, doesn't he. did it, oh they've changed the credits. Oh, buggery bollocks, we've missed it. The caravan parks getting black the dog, Bassa. Bassa the dog Stewarts. A little boy. The one we've seen on t , yes. If they've got a a Victoria Wood,is called Victoria Wood on here. See that bloke there? I swear that was You sure it's on it? Alan Isn't he one of the Jacovitch. I know that name Jacovitch. You know, for erm, T V Yeah. That he made when Yeah. And you made you in like camera work, or could you actually I really don't know, I really don't know, Maria, I'm very badly informed on it, I'm afraid. Like with most of my subjects. I don't know what's going on. I was asking today in the English seminar, asking Mr Stevens if they knew about the erm, exam structure. Right. And nobody knew about it, no-one No, we haven't been told at all, have we? I think we should have said at the first the very first lesson, they just ploughed straight into didn't they? 'Cos I just, I feel as if I'm much less aware of what's going on this year. Than you were last year, yeah. Definitely I just don't what is And it's and it's bad really, because this is actually our degree, this year. I mean Last year, you know, totally rat-arsed. now, he's putting up a list of all the poems he wants us to look at for next week. Oh, my God, I thou I don't know why I bothered buying Alchemist, it's Well, you never know, you might have to study it then for the exams. Yeah, I suppose I might, if I have to. One of the girls, today, she wasn' say she wasn't sure, but she was saying that she heard that perhaps the exam structure you have to incorporate all three phases of the Yeah, I think you might do. If I'm happy, then I'll do it obviously. Yeah But I would rather not. I might go and see Dave and see if he's got any more books today. not been on for ages. what was that? Me. I had Q T erm granules when they first came out, and they were the most revolting That's white tea, though, isn't it? Yeah. Yes, white. It's horrid. I mean, I can't imagine that I'd ever want to drink anything you know, erm, Instant white tea, that sounds gross. The whole point of tea, is that it has to brew, isn't it. Mm. Oh, is this on tonight? I don't watch this. Mm. The Queen goes up to that girl with the eyebrows, and she goes,and how are you today? I'm fine, but she's just nicked my eyebrows She's saying well keep them. No. I saw another place In fact, I'm I really need them Oh, that's just the upper hand isn't it. Is the kettle full then? Yeah, Beckie's filling it. Oh, well. No. Penny today, then? No, I haven't seen her. Thought she would have come round yesterday. She probably be round at some point today, won't she? Yeah. She has on Tuesdays. Shall I make another pot of tea. Oh, yes. Oh, sorry. So what have you been doing this morning Em, lots of work. Erm,no T V to be perfectly frank. I was going to No, no. Richard and Judy, erm, Oh God. I had one of those yoghurts last night, and they are so nice. so gross. Really? Yeah. Which one? out yoghurts. for fourteen p. fourteen p. Is there erm, is there any fruit in them, or not? Yeah. Yeah, brilliant. fat No. What flavour did you get.? I just got three strawberry ones, and three They only do strawberry, oh, and I hate it in yoghurts they're Stra er, strawberry, black cherry, I think. Oh. Or peach melba, but I only like strawberry but I thought I love their skin. Yeah, but everything, all yoghurts are so expensive, aren't they, you know? There's an offer at the moment sixty four. So, I mean, that's not bad, but most of them are about one twenty for four, aren't they? Which is taking the piss, really, isn't it. That's like getting on for thirty P a yoghurt. Buy them individually, they are. Yeah, M and S you are, they ask about thirty P They are, they're extortionate prices. If you buy a Shape yoghurt on its own. Oh yeah. They're about thirty-two P Yeah,show you. M and S yoghurts were thir were thirty-one P I think, over the summer. Really? They were on special offer all summer. I think they're supposed to be thirty-four, normally. And that, did they erm, set yoghurts as well, by any chance, 'cos I prefer set yoghurts. No. I hate set yoghurts. I don't think so. No, I'm not great lover of yoghurts. 'Cos I just mash them up, first. Yeah. No, 'cos I only like little ones. I can I can't eat a full yoghurt, so a little set yoghurt Yeah. Fromage frais is is perfect for me, so there. yoghurt. What? Yoghurts with I Q. Oh no, it's like, it's like with chocolate as well, I cut it up into little pieces, because I can't eat it all at once . I just don't like, she'll eat them. Well, you know what I mean. Ah. Sorry, I didn't ask if you wanted any more tea. No. You don't have to, but we live here. We should offer you I know. so we don't, I mean, I don't Help yourself. Okay. Has anyone, has anyone got any change of a fifty pence piece. I have. I have but I need for the I need it for the, er going into the er, washing machine. Oh. What's it for, to ring Kerry? Yeah. You not, your not looking at me What, what I'm not looking at you? Are you? You are, 'Cos you look as if you're I mean, you know I look like a fly trap, yeah. I mean, it looked as if you were looking at my chest, and just staring at my chest. No, but I think you're just totally right. Oh, my life. I think that, I don't know, it just seemed as if you were looking at me like Yeah. Oh dear. Have you been eating your muffins in there. Hope Your not phoning Kerry now before eight Yeah. Yes. Aren't I allowed to? No. My god, it's two o'clock in the afternoon. Are you phoning her now, why don't you phone her at seven. 'Cos I'll probably forget then. I was just thinking, I'd phone now, to do something, 'cos I'm bored. And your money was going twice as quick. Do some Alchemist. Yeah. Yeah. It looks so don't it? Mm. I'll make a pot of tea. I'm going to the loo. What's that in there? Cottage cheese and Marmite. Ah, I love and Marmite. Yes, so do I. And cucumber. Actually, Rose, could you give it another ten minutes, because Nicole will probably come round, and then we'll make a big pot of tea for all of us. Well, I'll make it, it will really nice, won't it? If you just right, lack of motivation at the moment, I need to get a glass of Lucozade I think. You want to you know me. You think it really works, though. Sorry? Do I think it really works? Do you think Lucozade really works? I when I've been ill. Yeah, so have I. Lucozade. Mm. It just not a drink I buy. Tastes nice when you're Tastes nice when you're ill, but What's everything tastes nice when you're ill Just gives you a , does it? Yeah, it's supposed to. Yeah. I mean, I do find it nice when when I got flu or something, I just it's cold, really really cold, really cold. have you. Doing now I'd rather do than sitting here. they started doing diet Tizer. Have they? Yeah, 'cos Tizer's the only one they haven't been doing diet, and I've been getting really pissed off. Yeah, I've got half a in the fridge, actually. Yeah, they do diet now. in the fridge. But I've only seen it in some of the I bet it tastes crap. I bet it don't. Tizer. Mind you, I don't mind diet drinks. What, yeah. When we used to drink Tizer. Mm. We used to buy it in Safeways. My dad used to buy it, always used to buy it on a Sunday evening. But I ne I'm going back years, 'cos I was on a diet, thinking, aw, I'm not drinking that, its got sugar in it. But now it's diet, I'll now definitely drink it. Is it just erm, because it's got sugar in it, or because I won't drink any diet drinks that are not diet if they're fizzy, because they've got so much sugar in 'em. You'd like teaspoon and teaspoons of it, Yeah. I just, the idea of eating that much sugar in er, just a glass of drink That's why I think I'm really lucky, because I don't like, sort of fizzy drinks, I can't drink 'em. Oh, I love fizzy drinks. I can't drink fizzy drinks. I only drink wine if it's fizzy. I'm like, Yeah, wine's is all. and they had white wine, or, er, red wine, and I went, oh have you got any lemonade. Like, don't you want any wine, I said I I only really like it when it's fizzy. Yeah. So I had some, Claire bought this Greek wine, and it was sweet, and I You know like, if I'm really thirsty, I could just gulp down a glass of water or a glass of orange, just like that, but with fizzy drinks, I don't know, I can't swallow them very easily, just sort of er, They're really good at aren't they? She's so fussy. Yeah. No, you were fussy as well. What, what am I fussy about? Fussy about everything. Oh, right. About leaving things around, things not being left in I don't like a mess, but No, I think I've got a right to be fussy. mm. I'll just eat anything. You fussy about your tea. Yeah. I like my tea. coffee actually. It has to be not too strong and not too weak. What Sam went through oh. So it can be weak, or If you do get a drink, she'll make a pot, and it'll have like one tea-bag in it. And like she'd pour it out and it's really really weak and insipid, and I go, oh,do you mind if I add a tea-bag to that. 'Cos she doesn't drink it with milk, so it don't really matter to her. Yeah. Mm. 'Cos my mother, likes it really strong, and you like it really strong, Mm. but sometim I used to drink really quite strong before, but I decided to give up erm, like, take less sugar, so if you take less sugar, I think I only took two sugars anyway, 'cos my tea was so strong, 'cos 'cos the stronger it is, you need more sugar to sweeten it. So I decided to give up one sugar and you know, I have to take it sort of weak weaker anyway. It's better for me, 'cos there's less caffeine, and I drink a lot of tea, so. So it's better. But I would try and give up sugar altogether, but I don't know. Well, you need to just give it up and I can't stand tea with sugar in it. I know. That's the way I did it. Because, I I I You can't reduce it and reduce it, 'cos then you're still depending on it. I did it with erm, with er, I went from one and a half and I'm down to one, 'cos I was, I I've tasted my father's sometimes, 'cos he thinks two and a half, he used to take three,and I'm like aw it's Er. My dad used to take two sugars, and when I said I was giving up sugar in tea and coffee, he reduced it to one. Yeah? Mm. 'Cos I think if I'd said, right I'm gonna give it up, I wouldn't drink tea ag again, 'cos I wouldn't be able to drink it, sort of without sugar. Mm. What about sweeteners. How about trying those? Mm. It's funny, I thought about sweeteners the other day, I think it's just as bad as sugar, I think. No, they're not, they got no calories in them, they've got something like nought point, nought, nought calories in them. No, it's not er calories, I'm thinking about erm, ruining my teeth, that's the only reason Yeah,in your teeth. It's not like putting a massive like spoon, if you think about it, right, if you have a spoonful of sugar in your tea, Mm. it's just like drinking, it's just like getting a spoonful of sugar and sticking it in and wiping it around. Yeah. You just diluting it a bit in the the erm, tea. And if you drink as much tea as you say you do, just think how many teaspoons of sugar you have a day, extra. Mm. But I don't have any sugar in anything else, I don't I don't eat chocolate or anything, so that's a have got sugar in. Yeah. I only drink, what have you. Sweet and sour sauce has got loads and loads of sugar in it. You'd be surprised the amount of things that have got sugar in. Yeah. Yeah. You'd be surprised. All sauces and that, have all got a load of sugar in. Mm. Especially things like salad cream. My mother, she decided to give up sugar, I think it was about one year. Well, she just decided to give it u to give it up, she never used to take much anyway. But erm, she used to take one in coffee and nothing in suga , I mean in tea, I think, and then she just gave it up, and she said it, she hated it for ages, and then one day she she tasted, she drank my father's and she said it was absolutely foul That's what I'm like, I drink sugar with it. Yeah. she going,horrible, innit. I did that the other week,sort of going yuk Mm. My mum drinks it black, so. What, tea? Yeah. Why's that? She just always has done. All her family, like they all just drink tea with a very little drop of milk in it, and she always drank it with a little drop of milk, and then, she decided not to drink it with milk at all. Yeah. So she has two sugars instead . Sometimes, I've, I've had tea without milk, and it doesn't taste that different really, it's just If you have skimmed milk, it doesn't. like water anyway. It's just at the end it is, it's bitter at the end. You know, when I've tried it without milk, I just don't, I just leave about that much at the end, 'cos it gets really bitter. I never usually finish my tea, down Oh, I do. but coffee I drain the cup, but tea I don't. I couldn't do that. I do. My mum always used to say that, why haven't you drunk this little bit of tea in the bottom, but I never do. Just, you would always leave a little bit of tea in the bottom of the cup, I don't know why. A phobia, I think there was somethin a spider at the bottom. social convention. No, when, when we drink it at home, because there are, not Yeah. not tea leaves as such, but there is Yeah, residue. tea in the bottom of the cup, so it doesn't taste very nice. Because, I mean there is a difference between fresh tea and and er loose tea, and erm tea-bags, because there is Do you have tea-bags at home? Yeah, we have tea-bags at home, but downstairs, the tea machine, you gotta use erm, well, they use loose tea. I mean, it is different, I never used to like the loose tea, when I was younger, but now I I sort of really taste the difference. I didn't, never used to taste as nice. But now, I I like it, I don't why. Well, Auntie had a tin of loose tea and tea-bags all day, like normal days, they drink tea=bag tea. But if we go round there,and they get the china cups out. get the get the drinks. loose tea. My mum 'cos it's so much cheaper to buy them the more . No, we're not on the tea-bags this week, What just I've just spent all my shopping, so you've got tea leaves. Yeah, it is it is cheaper to Oh, yeah, very, very much cheaper. Look at that. You're just paying for the convenience, aren't you, really with tea-bags, that they're just all sealed, you know. Yeah, I suppose. Yeah. Not for anything else, really. Still the same flavour inside. I tell you what. No, I'm jut showing that I'm a bit bored, though Bit bored. Tell you what is such a big con, was when the round tea bags came out, the round tea-bags. They're nearly all round now, though, aren't they? I think that's such a con, they even had adverts They they're erm, their better flavour for, Oh, fuller flavour all round. Er. I know. What does it matter if it's in a square bag or a round bag. I bet if they brought it, done it in star shapes, people would go out and buy them. I do prefer the round ones, though. I know it's stupid. I do. I know it's pathetic, you know, I much rather have round ones. They look nicer in the cup. My mother though, she's er, she's does, she's not fussy about loose tea leaves, but she's gotta have a Glengetti tea-bag. She's a Thai. She won't drink any other tea. Erm, it's just the brand, yeah. It's the brand. Never heard of them, have you? No. Glengetti? Welsh brand. Oh, is it. Yes, erm,was saying to me Could you send her down here. No, no,but erm, like was saying, she doesn't reckon they are Welsh. She doesn't think they are Welsh. With a name like Glengetti. I know, that's what I said Welsh, Scottish, or Irish she says she reckons that it's Scottish, it's a Scottish brand, but you know, I don't think it must be. in the er, dark ages. They are nice. Do your parents But speaking to you I know you don't, sorry Carry on. Your go. Erm, I know your parents don't really eat much sweet stuff, but do you have, generally have any sweet stuff in the house, really or is it No. No. Like we might buy, my sister is, she loves chocolate, my mother would buy her packet of of Secrets or something, she buy a Yeah. six pack or something, but my mother very rarely buys biscuits or anything. Really. Because we got biscuits downstairs, anyway,any way, so sometimes my mother has a cup of tea, and might just say oh go and get me erm, a Twirl, what are those twirl things. Walnut, walnut whip, that's it. Yeah. Oh, go and get me that packet of digestive biscuits I'm not a great eater of No, none of us really We've always got sweets up in our house, but then again we've got young children. They eat so much. Yeah. But what's the point in stocking up, Mm. if you've got it all downstairs, we can just nip downstairs. Mm. That's true. Like if the shop was separate, if we had our own, sort of, house. You just, you live quite a bit out of the shop. Do you get quite a stuff from the shop. Well, we haven't got a fridge upstairs. Oh. And I've been nagging my parents. At one point about three years ago, they said, right, we'll gonna buy a small fridge, so at least we can keep bread, milk, and things like that upstairs. And Yet you got a proper kitchen upstairs. Yeah, we've got a proper kitchen, we just haven't got With a cooker? Yeah fridge. Oh, what a pain in the arse, you have to go downstairs. Yeah. So, in the mornings, Is there space for a fridge? Not really. There'd be a space on the wall, perhaps small fridge, one of those small little ones, so you can just put the bare essentials in. But like, erm, in the holiday, sort of sometimes if I get up late, I'll come downstairs, and my mother's brought everything up, like the milk, the butter and cheese and br er bread's upstairs, but. But otherwise, I've got to go downstairs. Or if my mother comes up, and I'm sort of just getting up, she says, oh do you want me to bring stuff up, or ideally, I usually say or I'll come downstairs and get breakfast. But that's what I hate, I've got to go downstairs to get my breakfast. Oh, what pain. Got to go downstairs to get my lunch, it's really If you've got a kitchen, it defeats the object, really, doesn't it? Oh, no, 'cos you you you go cook upstairs, we've got a cooker That's what I mean. You've got to go downstairs to get everything. If you've got a kitchen upstairs, it defeats the object of you're having a fridge Unless you bring up and down the stairs. wouldn't you. The thing is though, we've got erm, got one, two, three, four, we've got five fridges. You know, and and the one we use for the shop, for the kitchen, is just a converted drinks machine, so it's massive. It really is big. It's a big huge fridge. So we just keep everything in there. And like all the lettuce, the you know, all the foods that are usually used in the shop, we just use it for ourselves anyway. It, I go downstairs and my mother will make a big box of of tuna mayonnaise, I just get the tuna mayonnaise box, get some suga , you don't It's quite handy really, We don't have our separate yeah. Yeah. We don't have our separate stuff, sort of thing, my mother will make sort of, bulk of egg mayonnaise, like the other day, I thought, I'll make egg mayonnaise now. Made two, erm, cooked two eggs, and it lasted me two days, whereas you know, usually if I go downstairs, I don't have to make anything, because all their pre-prepared anyway. Mm. Still it Like usually the top shelf, is usually our own stuff. Our own sauces, or whatever, erm, if my mother makes a cake, it goes on to the top shelf, but usually we just use everything. We've got bread and milk. Ours is a bit like erm, Tesco's really, so much in it. Honestly, there's such a good su stock in our kitchen, you could live for a week. 'Cos my mum's got one of these people that always keeps the stock up, she won't let it get really low, Yeah. she keeps stocking up every day. Yeah, But what ha , what Aladdin's cave. Stop scratching your leg. I'm n I'm just erm, just . What I find though, erm,becau my, because we got so much stuff coming in for the shop anyway, like the lettuce or the fruit and veg, my parents don , you know, like most people go,yo your mother probably goes, how many, how often does she make a shopping trip? Probably gets something every day. Well, like, you know, not to be My mum, erm, once every two weeks. See, my parents hardly ever go. My father will go to the cash and carry every week, and perhaps he'll pop into into Tesco's or something and get a few bits and pieces, so we got a lot in the fridge, but it's not a lot of variety. No. So, erm, you know, my mother like, if she, if she needs something, she just asks me just to pop to erm, Gateways. Occasionally my parents will go to Tesco's and then it's not like, with lots of people probably spend about a hundred pound, even more probably, wouldn't they? But you know, my parents would pay, probably spend about thirty or something. Wouldn't spend a lot. And Kerry at home, young girl whom I'm going to see erm, take that with, like you look into her freezer, she's got a big freezer like that, and they've got so much frozen foods, and you look into ours, we've got the one the same size, but it's just basically frozen vegetables, so you know. We've got . Everything's frozen basically in our house. Well, she does buy vegetables, but she'd rather buy frozen veg, 'cos it's just easy for her, dead easy for her. Yeah, it is easy, yeah Probably erm, it's probably nicer 'cos it's it's it's frozen straight away after it's been picked, innit? So it's probably fresher. Mm, they say that, don't they about frozen veg. Mm. They say it gives er flavour more. Mm. You know, some people, just don't like buying them, do they? They don't buy frozen vegetables. They'd rather cook it fresh. No, they got They won't like Kerry's house. Yeah. We got to use them up like Yeah? Mm. Well, there used to be a fridge/freezer at the bottom of the stairs. But the freezer kept freezing up, and er, we've had it since we left Sussex anyway. It would be fourteen years old now. Bloody hell. Coming up for fifteen years old. Erm, so like they just took all the fridge Part, Mm. the erm, the bar, the like the dining bar And er, keep the lemons and things in it, and then, the freezer is just for and when there was like a of stuff at Christmas, they put stuff in it from downstairs, Mm. but freezers anyway. And erm, we got a big, er huge chest freezer. Deep freezer, downstairs in the cellar. Do you stock some, at all for yourself? Do you ever use any fridge/freezers. No,fridge/freezer so it's down two flights of stairs. Mm. Mm. I don't know, it's just a pain in the arse. But we've never really eaten that much frozen food anyway. Mum's never had that much stuff in the freezer. When I used to buy stuff from M and S, from the staff shop. We'd stick it in the freezer that we've got downstairs. Mm. But you know, we just don't need frozen 'Cos, yeah, it's just vegetables we keep because erm, or if my mother makes sort of a lot of curries or things. Or or tomato sauce for the pasta, she'll freeze it in indiv individual portions, but Kerry at home like, they've got some real frozen meals, and they do do rely heavily on convenience foods, which we don't really. But you know you were saying that your fridge was fifteen years old, that one. Well, we got at the back of th the erm, shop there's we got this room and it's got this walk-in freezer erm fridge, and Walk-in? Ye yeah it kinda just walk. It literally clogs around. you just walk in and like, it was there and I would have said it was old when we arrived, and we've been there nineteen perhaps twenty years. Bloody hell, and it's still going. It's huge, it's so big. And do you you use it. Yes, used. And you've still got another five fridges. We got a big one where erm, sort of, it's really cold, and so we keep erm, the longest dates and everything erm, that we don't need immediately, and then, we got the fridge/freezer, we got the freezer in the stock-room, which is ours, we we just bought it,wh , my parents bought it about three years ago, for ourselves. Then we got the big fridge in the kitchen for all the foods like we use every day, then we got erm, oh w no, we got six fridges, and then we got the pie fridge, got all the p pies and put the cakes in as well, and we got another deep freeze. We keep the ice-cream and at the pa the pizzas and the ready meals that we cook. Oh, you got quite a variety of foods. Yeah, quite a variety, and then we got the drinks machines. Do you do desserts? Well, apple tart, but you know, things we bring in, apple tarts erm, custard slices,a the occasional eclair erm, yeah, we do quite a range, actually. Mm. Yes, we got six freezers, one, two, three, four, five, six, you know for, it's not that big it's quite a lot, really. Mm. Well, we got a lot of storage space, but, because we get deliveries three days, three times a week, Mm. you know. Don't we don't hold a lot of stuff for any period of time, Yeah. because it's all just coming in and going straight out again. Mm. 'Cos, Like the ice-cream and stuff, I mean, you know, ice-cream a box of ice-cream won't be there more than a week. 'Cos erm like Like their individual portions. So erm, you know, it's there that, although we've got a lot of storage space, Mm. The turn-over of food and the selling of food, you know. I mean, Things obviously, like herbs and stuff Steve only orders once in a blue moon. Yeah. Mm. And and like the dry store, erm, with all, it's got like the rice in it, the custard in it, all those sorts of things, I mean, you know, he might order that stuff once a week, rather than having it come in three days a week. But then, there might be joints of meat and the ice-cream and all the desserts and all the all, I mean, we have had fresh veg, we're not allowed to put peas on the carvery. Mm. Had to have six fresh veg on the carvery Do you? at all times. That's hard going then, isn't it? , that's hard work, you know, you have to prepare all that veg, and And so, if So if So if erm, if they're not used, they've got to be thrown away, they can't be sort of used again the next day, the veg. Well, most veg you couldn't use couldn't use up, could you. No. I don't suppose. I mean, you just have to control it, You don't cook, you don't cook as much as you need, you might have your potatoes prep but you don't cook them if you don't need them. Mm. Erm, you know, if they're sitting there in water and they've been peeled and they're ready to cook, they won't be cooked until they're needed to be cooked, you know. Mm. And erm, oh well, you know, they might have cauliflower cheese prepared to to put out, you know, they might. Say they needed it at eight, they thought they might need it at eight o'clock and then turned out they didn't, because one body else came in the restaurant, then they'd just stick that in the fridge over night, and put it out the next morning. Yeah. But, like if it's been out on the deck, the only things off the deck that they can save, is like Ratatouille, they save that, erm, and like but it's unused Mm. nothing else really. everything else has to be thrown out . 'Cos there's that what were they doing they'd be doing and the bread the bread and milk comes every day and then I think the meat,meat comes once every week, like. My bread I get from Tesco's. Do you? I get from the Co-op next door. Yeah, sometimes Tesco's, sometime. I used to pay this friend to go like into Tesco's. Mm. Sometimes James go up or Dennis goes up. Mm. If not they go to the Co-op, but Tesco's bread is cheaper. Erm, but . I mean, we, we used to have, like, we'd have meat come twice a week, they're the butchers, and then we'd have coming, maybe, erm, once a week, and then like the dry goods, er, erm, we'd have another day, where erm, you know, you have different things, basically coming every day. Mm. and the milkman would come and everything else, and now it's all central distribution, and erm,meat, you know, do central distribution, for the whole thing, and erm, they, all the companies that used to deliver to us individually, they deliver to the central depot,and they, in turn, distribute it to all the houses, Mm. and it's a much better system, overall, which is, you know, you don't have to ring up some many different people every week. Yeah. Mm. Ringing up for one order, so it does work out better now. It's really funny, because, we know our Hello,Bet it's Hi. She's just walked in I had a feeling I knew it would be you. Hi yeah. There's no one else that walks into our house, without ringing the bell. Just goes for it. How are you. Very well, thank you, how are you? We bought you a drink Lovely and sweet Bit disappointed in you. You didn't do very well over the weekend, did you, 'cos I was watching them and they didn't do that well. I know, he didn't really have a good he had a good day in the Mail on Sunday, though. Mm. oh right. I thought as in Italy, yeah. Oh my life. You haven't got your new clothes on. I know I haven't. You got you got them down here. Aye? Have you got them down here? No. I told her to bring them down You haven't even got, you haven't even got your No, sorry. She's got holes in those bloody jean, look at her. I know, sorry. Ar, look at all these apologies she's having to make, you wicked things. I always come round in my jeans. We always give her a hard time. They're so mean to me. What have you lot been up to? Nothing. Just watching the box , And we're just sitting here, talking about food. Mm. Just lazing around, really. How's work going? Really fun. It hasn't been that busy, it's not busy. Isn't it? It's just not like home, at home. Like if I worked at home on Saturday night, and I worked at home on a Sunday lunch-time it would be really, really busy all the time, and like there's four areas to cover in and there's only two areas and I think its too It's so weird though, cos The Rising Sun, it's not as if it's not central, Mm. it's on the way to bloody Richmond, you think it would be busy, wouldn't you? That's weird. Just a small On the main road . When we were in there, that Bank Holiday Monday, it was really busy, wasn't it. Well. Was it really busy, or was the bar service just crap. The bar service is crap. Yeah. There's only one person on Yeah. Erm, I mean, there were people in there, though, No, that's true. you know, I mean, Sunday lunch certainly wasn't any busier than that was. Mind you, anywhere would be busy on a Bank Holiday. Dead. Well, it's not dead, but like, when there are two of you on, you're not exactly taxed. Yeah. Well, when we went to a erm, they phoned, we wen , the woman, we said, ah, with the Rising Sun'll be, do you think the Rising Sun will be full as well, 'cos she phoned for us. And they phoned up, and they were fully booked until about four o'clock, so a Bank Holiday. Yeah, I mean, there were a lot of people in there on on Sunday. There was peo , there was loads of people waiting in the bar, for tables for the restaurant. But, like, we weren't rushed off our feet, is what I no thank you. People sat at all the tables in the bar, and some tables, there was like two lots of people sat around the same table, sharing a table. And then you had twenty people, well, over twenty people sat in the window, and they all had bar meals, and they'd all been to do with this run, you know, there's a big run through Twickenham on a Sunday morning, going on the way to work. And they'd all been in the run, so they all came in for lunch, and they, you know, it's like twenty bar meals, and then they were coming up to drink, to order drinks, they were doing like ten drinks at a time. But even that wasn't, you know, it wasn't any effort, No not like at oh here he comes. And these take it down off the counter and do it like this, and I'm getting more strength in my hands, now, because I'm using them to do more. Do you think perhap , erm, because it's not so busy, do you think perhaps they've cut back in the restaurant, and that's why you're doing a bit more work for the restaurant, you know, doing the floaters and things. No, no, that's the way these places are run. Yeah. Well, I thought perhaps it's because it They haven't got the facilities, facilities couldn't be anywhere but where they are, and that's how, erm, Beefeaters do their, set their bars up. Mm. I see. Bar staff with help with the coffees But they've got more of a concentration on the restaurant, whereas we haven't, we have a busy time and without a busy Yeah, that's true. You know. Mm. Yours is busy both sides, isn't it really. Whereas this is just one bar, with about five regular customers,as far as I can work out. Is there any night during the week, where you're not, the bar's not particularly busy, you'd say? Well, I mean, early week, Monday, Tuesday, well, you see, then we have like erm, going. Erm, Who's going say, like Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday we won't be that busy. but Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, we have, they'll be darts matches, and they'll be pairs matches, and they'll be Oh really. there's women darts, there's mens darts, and they might not all come in till about nine o'clock, but they are only like, two hours A very popular pub, yours, isn't it, why do you think that is? Is it because The area, I mean, we back onto a big council estate. Really? And then there's another housing estate over the other side of us as well. Is there not any pubs . No. no. I don't think so. Yeah, I mean, the next pubs are right over the side of the hospital, Really? all the way along to the Windmill, so, like the area we cover, there's a lot of people, and like, the middle part, it's very nice up there, you might, really attracts middle-class people, that we get out, for middle-class, middle-aged people that could go and sit in there for a drink. And there's the other bar. And then the public bar's there, for everyone else, sort of thing, and erm, you know that that's that but no, not even that, you know, really, erm, I mean, they, the public bars are supposed to be aimed at people of a lower social status. Bad innit when they go round giving these areas for people. But erm. But that's just the way they'd rather be. Yeah, that's true, yeah. probably local, and, I mean the bar the prices for drinks are always cheaper in the bar, as well. Are they really? Always. Always have been until now, but now they're the same price everywhere. Oh. aren't they? But we're the cheapest pub in Twick Twickenham. Are you really? Are ya. I don't understand it. Well, I do understand it now, because we've looked through it, but I understand it Nor did I I haven't even got it. I was so frustrated with it, I gave up timberland. Yeah. Good old timberland. Alright. I know, it's amazing that they haven't gone downwards, have they. How long have you been doing all this? er, about two years Are they really comfy? Very comfortable, yes. The bloke that I went to out with. picnic. Karl, and I for one decided it was too big for me so I I went round and of course I didn't. How much were they? About a hundred. Oh, about a hundred and twenty-five, now. Can you cancel that cheque? Mm. I have. You have, the cheque,well done, yes Well done. Well, I suppose to find out his surname, but I haven't found it out, but they said they would stop it anyway. I mean, again, I don't understand him like, and I don't know. You might know. I don't want to know. Well done. Oh, that's good. So how much did you get? A hundred and forty-seven quid. Was it? Well, it still doesn't give me any money, but it just stops more money going out of my account. At least your overdrafts a bit better. Did, do they oh, with a card, they don't charge for cancellations of er, cheques, do they? Yes, they bloody well do. They do! What! I thought that was like er How much? I don't honestly I didn't know you had to pay if you cancelled a cheque? Yeah. Yeah, real bastards, banks. Yeah, real bastards. Anything. They make their money innit. They charge it. Do you know, the slightest thing that's out of the ordinary, they'll charge you for doing it. It's like you haven't, if you wanna get money out, but you haven't got your card, it's not your branch, you get charged Yeah. for taking money out. I got charged when I did it in Newmarket. Really? that's disgusting, really. Oh yes, it's really bad, I mean, it's your bank. That's how they make their money, though, isn't it? I mean, you know Louise, she erm, was two pounds overdrawn, erm, for about a day, she was sent a letter to say that she'd been charged twenty pounds for the letter, Yeah, my sister and she had a hundred pounds, she put a hundred pounds in to cover the, you know, to put her back into credit. So she's lost eighty, she's lost twenty pounds out of that hundred pounds though. So she said she's, you know Is this account? She, yeah, she was overdrawn for for two at, for a day or something. So she's gonna write a really stinking letter, now. Well, who, who does she bank with? I'm not really sure I'm lucky, Nat West don't charge when I miles over my overdraft. Don't they? They're quite used to it, I think. Oh, I still have to cancel that cheque, yeah. And that was for the Yeah, but I really Yeah, but I really ought to find out his surname. Well, if they said they'd cancel it anyway. What's his name? They said they would, but they said you ought to give us the surname. Because when they , they know where it's coming from, sort of. Yeah, but if you've only written one cheque in the past whatever. Don't know how many weeks it is. Who? What's his first name? Will. Will. Can you remember what what, no Have you written down didn't you write it in the in the margin? I just put rent, you see. Oh. That's what I put. So there's, there's erm, Do you know who I might see, I might see that girl, Michelle who lived 'cos I saw her last Thursday, she was in the classroom next to us. Does erm, Brian now that you can't clear the cheque? Well, she said, right, she said, er, he can't cash that cheque because his account's in Ireland, so can you get him out the cash instead. And I just said, I'm not walking around with a hundred and fifty quids worth of money. Get mugged. Not even even gonna And he didn't say anything more about it? I'm not gonna pay it,because I can't afford to. Not going to either, I stayed there one night. No. And I gave them loads of money, When did you write the cheque out, you wrote it ages ago, didn't you? When I was that, first week, the second week, was here. So has it has it gone out of your account? Or is it No, it hasn't gone out, because he hasn't cashed it, you see. He hasn't cashed it yet. Why did he take so long in cashing it? Because his account's is in Ireland, so he Mm. Funny really, not to cash a cheque cheque, you know. Like because their account, you know, if you write, like if I wrote a cheque out to you today, and you didn't cash it for four weeks Mm. in those four weeks, if I don't realize that that cheque hasn't cleared, like I don't even no what cheques are cleared 'cos I haven't got a date written on it. Nor did I. You think you've got more money than what you have. yeah. I'm always like that with Nat West, though. I never know how much money I've got in there. I don't even dare look. My mum brought be down yesterday. Oh, did she. That was good. So embarrassing, it was awful. Was it a nice meal. Yeah, it was very nice, thank you. Was she pleased with er, the house The room, Mm. yeah, very pleased. Oh, that's good. Has she brought much stuff down with you? Well, she brought my telly down, my clock radio and some some more things. Not that much, but Normal things. You've got to have down here as well. mm. Our dog bangs, the dog would bang their dog, and Ow Didn't want to go home, and he took them both for a walk. Were you glad you came out with us on Wednesday? Mm. Apart from the fact they at the end. Did you walk back on your own? Yeah. I thought you walked back with . you said you were walking back with Alan and Marie cooee No, they didn't go back in the end. You were hour away from college. Katherine! You went home? Yeah. At what time. No, I didn't, I got the bus part way, 'cos someone gave me some money for the bus. Oh, Katherine. That's sad. what a nightmare Ow, it was fun. back in ready to steps on. Ar, can't believe it about you. it was fine, I just don't do it, I just sort of standing on I'm not walking, I'm not moving I can't. Well, you're more likely to get attacked then, you're just standing there. You should have come back. You should have stayed with us. Yeah, I was going to, but then I just grrr The balloon, I can't believe those balloons are still up. You don't have to change the subject. Why what's happened? are you changing the subject. Me? balloons. No, but I noticed the balloons when I came in, I thought, they've still got those balloons up. They've taken the John's quite good, really take the Where's whatsername today? She's upstairs. Ann No. Nicole. here. Alright, I'll be down. She's being studious. I wish I was being studious. I did do some of that She couldn't see the washing when the lights are out. Or can't she be bothered, now, or what. Mm, got to be done. It means I haven't got tights. I haven't got any underwear. Really, why didn't you tell me. I don't know,problem. So, erm, I'm going to the toilet now, and then we'll drive to college, because we've got so much bloody washing, it's not all going to principle French college, and erm, you Have to go home, to get some change. It's better like that, isn't it? If we do one twenty each. Mm. in a minute. Thing is, I I don't haven't got anything of white. All I got white is my underwear. I could put my erm, my dressing gown in, and that's not even a half load. I mean, I haven't got any light clothes. Mm. It's a bit I've got all two towels. Mm, got about I've got T-shirts, but one's really dirty. That one we moved house in . or I like T-shirts. Yeah, I've got nice T-shirts, it's just that I'm really cold. it's bloody cold, innit? Usually I wear T-shirts inside jumpers like, thing is, 'cos I didn't like, my drawers fell down, I don't bother to, bending down to get them. Oh, don't tell me more about your bloody I can't be bothered to bend down and get a white T-shirt. I don't know. I know. I bent down to get my my night-shirt, it's in my drawer with all my jumpers But what's for me. Thing is, I've got my heater right in front of my wardrobe, and I've to move it so someone'll open my bloody wardrobe. It's so annoying. Ah, my thumb it's cold. Mm. So all these to be done. I've done. You don't want to Friday in. No, I'm not going to out. so much for a little work. How, what, how much have you got to transcribe? Half sides. Half sides. That's gonna be about three minutes, that took about Yeah, I know but all this tape's not for me. It's for the Other people? The study. Oh, that's what it is. Yeah. It's not all for me. It's the study. Let's face it, read it all, read it all. Yeah,anyway. they've just changed all the if there's any names on there like,they want use it, Mm. after that they just dump them. Yeah. Yeah. Mm. just stressed out. Mind you, erm, I haven't been conscious about him at all, even when he was on the first of all. Mm. I suppose it was because he used to be so, you know, If you know what it's about. Yeah, well, yeah Yeah, but he won't. If you like him, or he was doing other I have been taped before. My sister's put it on sometimes, and I really sort of oh, Yeah, don't do that, Yeah. don't do that. I'm really sort of stopping my myself from saying things, but If people think they hear,, when they think listening to you, then what you're talking about. Mm. What you're talking about. I think that's what they want. They're gonna be looking at you. Mm. You know. they might have a, they might spend a bit of time topic, but they want, they're just looking at you know variations in Yeah. I am more aware, like, you know, people, of what people say. I am now. And the other day, the other day, erm, you would say, erm, you know that sheet with silence topic, erm, always the right to choose a topic, and turn taking. Yeah. and it was all split up into the different seminar group, we we had to take one aspect. Each one of us, and and do it, and I had topic turn. Topic, we had the right to choose topic, and then one girl Come in. one girl, erm, she was saying, she was saying about the turn taking, and the theory is is that people Hi. Hello. If you're in a big conversation, if you're in a big group. Hi, Nicole. You usually look at that person, and when you coming to the end of your your your speel, you sort of look at the one person. Yeah. and she was there, and I thought Yeah. and like in the extreme theory, in extreme examples, like you you say right it's auto speak Yeah. like Beckie. Yeah. and I just didn't agree with it and I'm trying to sort of, they say in your subconscious you do sort of look at and the last person erm, will look at you, you get Yeah. generally speaks. So you're thinking line, So I've been trying, I've been trying to sort of, I I was arguing saying, I don't think that's true. What's this then? Language. I was saying, I don't think it's true at all, but erm, I don't know, I'm trying to figure out whether it's actually true or not. Say replies, that if someone else has got something to say, they'll sa they'll Yeah, that's what I was saying, that was was my argument. I was. Can I make a cup of tea? Yeah, of course you can. As I was saying, erm, so many people have got different ideas. Even if you'd been arrest if I put my eyes and rest them on you. What what if you haven't got anything to say? Yeah, that's true. But if somebody answered the question and say something else. Yeah. So I suppose you've got to take it with a pinch of salt and it isn't true so some ways, but I don't know. Yeah, I was arguing black and blue, and I was the only one, sort of saying, oh no I don't think that's right. Oh at least you, you know stuck by what you thought. stuck by your guns . 'Cos everyone, she was reading this out, and everyone was going, yeah, yeah and it sounded so stupid and I thought, Agreeing with it, Yeah I don't agree with this, I think this is really. I mean, I said I didn't agree with it, but everyone said, oh no, it is true. I made you wrong, and I said, well I still don't agree with it, and I sort of explained exactly what I thought. Did you get much done, Nicole? I thought, Are reading the Alchemist? Yeah. I got into bed, and I was really nice and warm, and I was lying back, I don't really like to lie back when I'm doing something, I like to sit up in bed, I don't generally do work in bed. If I read I like to sit up, if I start to lie down I was like this. Yeah. So I've had to come down and I was in the library. It started coming freezing But there's no room in there, Nicole. It is nice and warm in there. Yeah, I was sitting in the sun as well, over by the window there. I think the warmer you are, the more lethargic you get. That's true. It so annoying with not understanding every line. I've just given up now. Mm. Have you bought the book? No. Oh Jules can't come on Thursday, Nicole. Oh right. Okay. No, wait a minute. She might be going as well. I saw her today. Have a good weekend? Mm. Does anyone else want a cup of tea? No. Yeah, I had a really nice weekend. I didn't do any work. Never do. Erm, on Saturday, we erm, Rebecca and Claire and I went to see The Seagull. Mm. At The Orange Tree. Met Fred. Fred and then they all came round in the evening, and then on S Sunday, went to church and were invited out for lunch,and I went to see my mummy and daddy. You went to church in college. No, erm, we go to church Oh, it's not, course you're not. Erm, not that I wouldn't, I mean, we just, we just in church, you know. Mm. What you been buying? Well, I bought a cup and saucer the other week, in it's really nice, and You see that that plate there, the green one, Yeah. Mm. Well I've got a saucer like that, it's sort of like a flower and then it's got a cup to go with it. It's really nice. Is it really big. Oh, I was asking where you were, wasn't I? She said, where's Nicole? I was worried, I thought you were gonna bunk. Oh, as if . No, there was hardly anybody at our English seminar this morning, it was so funny, he had about five of us sitting there, we go, I'm not surprised oh no. right every time I come there's less people. Hi yeah. Hi yeah. Was that this morning, Sue? yeah, turned up. Quite a few turned up with us, I thought, I mean I thought I wouldn't know anything, but no one else had read the book. And do you know what, I transcribed some notes for it, me and Miss Sandie or Sandra. Sandra Breakheart. She got erm,blon erm, blondish brownish mid=brown hair. Short, very skinny. No, no, no. So, did you finish it, or. No, I mean short isn't it? Have you got that. And you were talking about Erm, well no, I read too much last night. Hi. Oh, right. So I knew the gist, I just Hi yeah. Studied the outlines. No I'm going to do my washing. Oh, right. I'm going to get mine now. Not quite as exciting. No. Erm, I'm going 'cos I've got to go to see whatsit called? So, what notes have you got on it? What notes, I've got on it? Only Just ones you've written yourself. No, I'm doing it for A level. Well, yeah. A levels or something. Oh, you lucky thing. Yeah, that's what I was thinking. done it. last night. I had to do Valponi as well, which is one of these other ones. Yeah. I did as well. Oh, it was shit. Right, I'm off. Mm. erm, I don't know if I'm gonna have a spare ticket, but are you interested in going to the theatre on Thursday if I have. Thursday night? Thursday afternoon. What to see? Two Gentlemen in Veroni at the Barbican. Five quid. Two p.m. Erm. Yeah. What am I doing Thursday night My realise your walking. Yeah, yeah. Near Yeah. Sorry let you know, I've got to go. Okay, alright. Got it all in. Yeah, I'm not quite I keep thirty P It's just that I've already mentioned to someone else, and if they can't go, then I'll offer it to you. Yeah, then I'll know if I will be able to go. I'll put your back in anyway. What is in that I'm going . You all going? Bye, can you find your way out. I just said that I'm going I'm driving round, Oh, right. Can I have a lift? Yeah, oh, hold on, how many, one sitt Yeah, I'll have a lift. No, there's six of us. I'll walk. Oh no get a taxi. You've got to talk with her. What, now? You tell us, and pretend you're a teacher. They're erm, pretending. Did you do that tape recorder, is that turned off? Oh my I think so. I won't be able to record us. Julie? Coming. Take that outside. You're welcome. recording that,you don't mind, do ya? What was I talking about? The English language. No, I don't think so. Mm. all your secrets out. Don't worry. what money have you got, Maggy. I've got a fiver, I don't know when I can change it, but I want to change it, erm. Right. Erm, I've actually got two pound coins, and two twenty P. That'll do. No. Shove it in If you can get some twenty P Yeah, yeah. And I can start it all off, and then Soap I can, I can put it all in and everything while you then you can go into your lecture. I don't really care. I really wanted a nice granary french stick but erm, doesn't have they only had the white ones, so I think I might go to Waitrose, not Waitrose, erm, might get up early tomorrow and go to erm, what's it called, erm, Sainsburys, yeah. Sainsburys. Mm, what shall I have, I haven't got any more cakes left. What did you have for lunch? Erm,and Marmite. No. I had a cake, that's what I had erm, a cake for my pudding. What at lunchtime? Yeah, and I sort of felt a bit bloated ever since. Silly really. Mm. Do you want a muffin and that? Yeah. Yeah? Yeah. You what? I like something as likely it has. There you go . The grocery bill was on the side in the house Yeah. and he'd spent fifty quid in Sainsburys. What, you're joking . do you wanna know how much money my mum spends in Sainsburys at a time? I dread to think. About eighty pounds. But that's for how many of them? Yeah, there is quite a few I suppose. I mean, is that for five of them, isn't it? Yeah, that is true. Five sometimes six. Yeah. This is for two. It's all like It's a lot of money. most of it was fresh produce. Really? They, it's not gonna last, like, they're still b buying more and more of it. It wasn't like all your basic items, or anything. Mike doesn't eat meat, so like, it's only like, slice of chicken, slice ham and stuff for Maryanne. Most of it is fresh fruit and veg. Really? There was some booze on there as well, but not much, so erm, Right, a lot of money though, isn't it? Yeah. Fifty pounds for two people. Mind you if he sees . Did you, what did you want on this, did you want some jam, is that alright? Strawberry jam? Have you got any butter Erm, no I haven't, Claire has, nick some of hers. Yeah. I've got some Marmite, and I'm just Do you want some jam? Claire's got some Vitalite, I think. Anything will do. Mike organized it, for me to go over there and then I didn't need to be there at all, cos noth nobody turned up. Ah. So I've er I'm sure they're really grateful for you I don't think Maryanne even knows I've been there. You don't think what? Maryanne knows I've been. No. Do you arrange it all, then? I think, yeah, well he rang me, so erm, I think she was expecting, I think they, when they left the house this morning, he was thinking, he'd be able to get home in time for it, and erm, then he got to work and the day wasn't, hadn't worked out the way he expected. And like, did you hear about that unexploded bomb, in the Second World War, the two thousand pound bomb on the News last night. No. Do you want tea or coffee,? I'll have a coffee, please. There was two thousand pound, Second World War bomb, they found in Walton, which is right near the River Thames which is, like, past Hampton Court, and Mike said that he'd have to go out there today, and it's er erm, this guy who he works for, owns a Leisure Centre right beside where this bomb is. So he'll need to go down there with his associates and had to evacuate the Leisure Centre. Oh, really? They just found this bomb and they were going to have a controlled explosion at the car park Oh. So, that made the day a bit more interesting, but he's been stuck with er, all these upper class councillors that telling him what his job is, and Don't go down very well. He said, he's not impressed, and er, I think the idea that go at a meeting today, Yeah, turn that power off before you do any more to that it's silly isn't it ? Erm. Yeah. Oh, buggery bollocks you take yours anyway,get on Erm, so like all their ideas, on the erm, you know the ideas they were putting Yeah. were that in, in the borough there's lots of like fallen land, like, you know, Esher Common and things like that, Yeah. that they thought they could develop and hav hold events on, and er, he said, like we, we came up with some good ideas, put forward some ideas, really good ideas, for things to do on this land, and he said, the trouble is that all these councillors back on to these pieces of land, and he said, er, they don't want people coming along and enjoying themselves on it, because they want to go and walk their labradors on it. Oh, I see. So it might disturb their neighbourhood, you know, so they weren't very impressed with his ideas. Ow. So er, he hasn't had a very good day at work, a bit fed up. But Alfie's coming down tonight, and they're going out. Does he come down and visit quite a lot? Yeah. Does he? He's his partner in crime, as he calls it. Do you think Maryanne's alright about that? Oh yeah, yeah. All friends together as it were. Yeah, no, that's doesn't bother her at all. I mean, they've been on their own for weeks, so. You know, at the w they like to spend their weekends with everybody. Yeah, they don't want to section themselves off, obviously. I mean, Mike was like, you gonna stay down and I was, I haven't seen anybody at college all week, so I think I'd better go back, actually. But erm, I did tell Maryanne if she wanted to go shopping tomorrow, I shall be around. Oh, God, yeah, I've forgot abo mind you Emily's coming back tomorrow, isn't she? Possibly. But she might not be back till Sunday. Oh, I see. Do wh what do you, personally what do you think she'll do ? What Em? Sunday I would have thought. Really, yeah. I suppose We've still got all day Monday off as well. True. She ain't got all, to rush back for anything, has she? No. This is nice. Nice. Mm. They're nice, aren't they? Now you know why you eat so many of 'em. I wanted to get the wholemeal ones, bloody out in Tescos. The only thing, their bread's a bit crap in there. Yeah. Never get, you know, as big a selection as I'd like to get in there. But, still beggars can't be choosers, they are cheap, they had loads of offers on them. Mm. Tins of baked beans, fourteen P. Do, what do they taste like, though? Well, I should imagine they're just the same as their normal ones, and they've stuck a, a whacking great white label on them, but I mean, you know, perhaps they're of an inferior quality, I don't know. I haven't tasted them yet. Julia's had them and she said they were fine. Erm, well, rice pudding. Only I don't like anything like that. I, I wouldn't buy it, but, Emily eats it for breakfast. With jam on it. Mm. Why don't you like it? Not that I'd ever tried it, but, that sort of thing, semolina, and all that, I hate it, urgh. Yoghurt, you like yoghurt, though. Mm, but, urgh. I got erm, three of those, erm, you know, those diet, sort of, erm, what they called, you know the yoghurts with the two dips bits in it, you know, three of those for ninety nine pence, in Iceland. Oh, that's good. Mm. Yoghurts are expensive, aren't they? They are, that's why I got that offer for three big ones. Actually, they did have six for fifty nine P in Iceland, but the date was up on them like, Sunday, and I thought, I won't get through all the them. Once they start going off it's not really worth having them, so. Bought me trusted cottage cheese. Some parsnips, some carrots, cucumber, onion, apples. Didn't get the plates, I'm gonna get them tomorrow, it's too awkward to carry but I generally get nothing exciting. Just the bare essentials. I've got masses. Really. Like, I've got half a pepper, and a piece of cheese and some, some kind of sp spread. spreads. Erm, a loaf of bread I'm sharing with Teresa. Two packets of Cuppa Soup, but I'm not sure that it wasn't Cuppa Soup, cos I've said to Thomas, I'm not at the moment. Really? Erm, so cheese on toast, and Cuppa Soup for you, then. Probably be nothing, actually. I eat, I went, when I went round to Maryanne and my baked bread next door, I like I went down, I went in there before, before I went upstairs into the flat, and bought a, a roll for twelve P. Oh, yeah, that was good. Mm. Soft roll, and then erm, I had a Viennese Whirl with it, and I sat and had that with my can of Diet Coke that dad bought a can of drink on the train this morning and never drank. Did you have lunch in a park, did you say? Yeah, we had a piece of quiche, That was nice. and a hot chocolate,in this park in London. It was really nice, we had a good old drive around, Mm. Hampstead, erm, round Hampstead, round Highgate, had to drive up there, it's so nice. Really? Lovely shops and everything, and er, it's all like round corners and everything, really, and some of these, dad's sort of, he marked the most that's open on Sundays. There, there's one street, it just like Gaps and everything, like, you know, it's a really lovely road, you know, and erm, it's just a really lovely area altogether. He showed me some really nice places, and then we went to this park, I can't remember what the park's called. We stopped off there, had hot chocolate and a piece of spinach quiche, but I was, and erm, and he treated me, which was quite amazing, and then erm, That was nice. and then erm, we drove, er then we walked through this park, which was lovely, it had squirrels running all round the place and pigeons and everything, it was gorgeous, and, and because it, it'd been such a gorgeous day, it's just that my fucking nose is cold. It's really bright. So in fact, the sun is really hot, when you're in the car. Yeah. So I, I erm, I had a lovely walk through there, and then we went out the other side of it, and it's Highgate Cemetery. Oh. And, this cemetery is like, this, erm, George Eliot's buried there, Karl Marx is buried there, Mm. there's all these famous people that are buried there. And er we didn't actually go in, but I'd love to go back one day and have a look, Yeah. because like, there there's a picture of the gravestone of Karl Marx outside and it looks really amazing, and some of the places, some of these graves that have, some of the, like tributes, are just enormous. Really? They're just so big, it's incredible. You just can't envisage, you know, why and how they managed to afford such extravagant graves, and it's like on two sides of a road, on one side you can only go in, and if you're on a guided tour, erm, otherwise you've got to, be like, somebody to do with the grave. Really? You know er personally attached to the grave, or go on a guided tour, and er, like you've got to wear certain bits of clothing, you gotta be like, you gotta be properly dressed, er, you're not allowed to eat or drink in there, there's all these things, like, you know, really into that. Yeah? But it looks fantastic. It looks, you know, I mean, it's to say that, it sounds really weird, but it Yeah. so mysterious and strange in there, that it would be really interesting been in there. to have a look. He's looked round some parts of it, yeah. and er, like Christmas, erm, they have these things on the telly when there's about, every, every night there's like a fifteen minutes' programme, just before the close-down, of like, B B C One. One? And there's people, like famous people of the telly just sitting and talking erm, and saying prayers every night, and walking around a typical area that means something to them. Oh. And we watched it one night, and it was Mrs Hewitt off Eastenders. Oh, really? And er, she was really by Michael Aspel, weren't she, or Michael Parkinson? between them. Yeah. Aspel tomato. Erm, and so, we had a good old walk around there, and like this place where she was, I swear it's Highgate Cemetery where she was talking, Oh, really? and like she was pointing different things out about this cemetery, and, I mean, you know, you there can't be many cemeteries No. like that in, in London and she was in London, but we missed the beginning of it, Oh. and erm, mum was sorry that Mark had been on about it, she said, oh I bet that's where he goes, and erm, like the park beside it was just lovely, Yes. the whole thing, really, really nice area, and er, all just minutes away from central London, you know. Oh. It was, it was really good. Had a really nice three hours. And er Oh that was nice. Then he's gone off to Coventry, and then over to Manchester. So er, It's quite to get on with your bruv . Yeah, because you know, we're always messing about, or around, or, you know, never like you know, together, really Yeah. Because even when I go up to his place, like it's always been, like dropping him off, always being in a hurry. I mean, I sat in his room, had a coffee today, it was like, I actually sat here and relaxed and always being on the move, you know. Yeah, yeah, always moving around. I said, you know, I really appreciate it, I mean, the house is gorgeous, but you know, at the end of the day, it's so nice, he's so lucky. Is it? And er, you know the people there. The lady that he, he works for,sorry, the erm, she's, have I told you she does outside catering? Yes. And she's doing the outside catering for the World Champion, World Chess Championships. Oh. So, like, Schwartz, and is it Kasparov, whatever they call him? God knows. Erm, they were actually eating her food. She thought she was up feeding the film crew, Yeah. and she was actually feeding the champions, Really? and erm, Blimey, I bet she's making a bit. Yeah. Been doing it for twenty days now, and erm, She's what, say it again. She's been doing it for twenty days. Really? And they were all very impressed because she'd done twenty different dinners, in twenty days. Really? They were given a different meal every day so erm, she was pleased with herself. Is she married, they got, was there a husband there? Oh, yeah. He's a London taxi driver. Oh, really? Yeah, and they were married twenty five years on Monday. Oh. So Mark said they were out celebrating after he cam and he's working for them next Saturday, she's doing some kind of a function, Yeah. and er, he's got to do the drinks. Oh, that's good, isn't it? So he gets twenty five pound for the for the night, and he hasn't got to start until about nine o'clock anyway so erm that's, that's something for him to do, isn't it? Oh, that's really good. Yep. erm, Jay's sister, Tamsin it's her twenty first on Monday, so he was, like, write out her birthday card, right, and he was like, trying to write something funny, so he was constructing this thing, like reading it out to me, and half an hour when I first got there. Yeah. And er, it was very amusing, but repeatable, half the things he wrote in it, and erm, it's very, it was very good, but, he is quite good at that when he sets his mind to it, it usually takes him about three days to do it, but he does like to er, write messages in people's cards. And er He's a laugh, your brother. He's a nut-case. up to him seems a it's Mark, I couldn't believe it. It was like, get on to those bloody phone people, he said, I was on the phone to them for half an hour, yesterday, he said haven't turned up, he said, and I organized m I work around and everything. He said, and then I got you to come along, he said, and it's all for nothing. It's always the bloody way, innit? And I said, well go and pick the phone up Oh, yes, we have got a phone, actually Before you start whacking your breasts. Mm. I haven't had a phone all week. Which it isn't the easiest thing, when you've just moved into a place, is it? No. I mean, erm, you know, at least we're all sort of easy walking distance of one another. Like we council with our daily contacts through college, but That's true. like, you know, everyone's far away from them. Exactly, they Quite a distance, haven't they?especially for emergencies. It's worrying, Mm. isn't it to think that Yeah. someone can't get hold of you. Right, okay,my boudoir, I've just seen a few things together. I should get changed, really, but I'll, No. what I'll do, is I'll if I give you my clean shirt, you take it round to yours. If I want to change, I'll put it, the only thing is, if we do go up the bar, I think I'll be a bit warm, in something like this won't I? Yeah, that's the trouble isn't it? But it's so cold out there. I know, it's a bloody, it's such a pain in the arse, because you freeze to death, bloody getting up there, and then when you get in there, it's so bloody hot. So start with what the hell which is really quite aggravating really. Sorry? It's quite aggravating, innit? Mm. right, she did take that book with her, didn't she? Yeah. Was she supposed to then? Right, lipstick, lipstick, lipstick. lipstick on your collar told a tale on you really. Oops You need some more curtain hooks. No, I don't. No. Is that how many there were up there? Yeah . Or have they nicked some? They they tended to spread them out a bit, about the house, you know, just willy-nilly, where they were wanted. They're just normal ones, aren't they? Oh, I expect so. I know, does look a bit silly, doesn't it? They shouldn't be like that, we should, like, be able to pull cords and curtains as well gathering them a bit. They are gathered even now. You probably can do in that, I just haven't mucked around with it. It just needs somebody to have a look at it, but I just can't be bothered. time, Right, okay. Right, if I can just give this shirt to you, Annette. I'll get you a bag for it. My hairbrush in there as well Hmm, sort my life out for me. What else do I, I don't need anything else, do I? It's not raining out there, is it raining? It's dry. Are you sure? Been dry all day. Okay. Probably start raining soon, erm Do you want to go and sit in the lounge, Joanna? Yeah, okay. Sorry, er, This is general, got me, got me microphone. micro What you done ? Wrecking me house. Wrecking our house, sorry, yeah, I don't mean to exclude you. So did you What is it? Oh what to record our conversation. This is, this is the micro yeah. This is the whatsit. Oh, no doing that. Oh, don't be stupid, Some of us have done it before. Erm, it's like nobody turned up. It's like, hang on a minute, when we had our phone connected, none of us were up here for it. Yeah. Well, why, why er, is you know, somebody coming around. So I said, Mike, is there a fa something wrong with the phone, and he said, no. I said, well, they're just connecting it then, and he said, yeah. And I said, or he said, I spent half an hour on the phone, trying to study, he said, she was from Ireland, he said, I couldn't understand a bloody word she was saying. Oh dear. He was going on and on, and erm, I said, well, I'm sure that if you go and pick it up, it will be working. So he did, and it was working, and he was so, they just connect it from outside, Oh, I see. from the line box. Yeah. and erm, so er, it was nothing to do with, like coming into the house Oh, to connect it. So like, I didn't have to be there for the phone at all. never turned up so Oh, that's a bit out of order, they often do that though, don't they? Where's your parents been then? Oh, erm, they're in Cyprus, so Oh, really? I pick them up Sunday. Sunday, it's really tight. Yeah, Annette was hoping that she wouldn't have to work on Sunday. It makes the day disjointed obviously, Yeah. because she's gonna pick 'em up, but she's got to work like you, slap bang in the middle. Yeah, mine, mine used to be something like quarter to twelve, didn't it, quarter to twelve till three, and then they decided to change round, it used to be quarter to twelve to six, didn't it? Mm. Whereas, we used to be open all day. Mm. Got greedy. I'm doing twelve to three. Mm. that's alright. Yeah. Plus. I wish I was doing more hours, though really, cos like, I got to take the whole day for it, Yeah I might as well might as well be there, till later, yeah, I know what you mean. I mean, just for three hours. Do they give you anything to eat there? No. they don't seem to give you any, you seem to have as much tea and coffee as you want, or soda water. Lemonade. Lemonade. Or lemonade Really? It's all on draught so er, they have stocks and that. But I mean, my dad always invites his staff to have a drink at the end of the evening and I mean, most of them have already been bought a drink during the course of the evening, anyway, so they're entitled to it. But erm,. So er, I think, I think like, it depends who you're working with as well. Think like, some of them, take Yeah. sort of Yeah, there. What ones can I take then, Rebecca? Oh,well, let me have a look. I don't think you'll find anything in that, you can have that. What's it for? They call it word book, and every week, Yeah. it's a scrapbook, some, some of them went, what do you mean a scrapbook, and he was really offended. Really? No, not a scrapbook . A word. It was, well it is, you, you stick in pieces of articles, into a book, you're collecting them. Just any articles? Well, they have to correspond to the lecture, so the lecture this week was, world population. Had to so it. Like the world, And business? the world. Yeah. Yeah. And then, you have to get to about three to four articles on that. I don't know where I'm gonna get them from. And then World in It, it gets a bit easier, because they go on to like health, age, I know I'll be able to find loads to stuff on age, won't I? World population, erm probably what I'm gonna have to do is, although they, they said you can't do it don't get any ideas about doing it with because it's not possible. It is possible Mm. cos if I find that I can't find something, I'll just have to look like Keep looking as you're going along Yeah, do you know what I mean? So, that's what is. And it's just like, and they want you to make some comment on what you've worked out, which is no problem really, is it? Do you know that newspaper that they brought out, the European, and it's like, just to, just to Yeah. take you through the whole of Europe. Yeah. like world issues, then, Yeah. Because I know the Telegraph always have a lot of foreign, foreign news. But that's what, but The Sunday Times has always got a world news section at the back in it. Oh, brilliant. So there should be something in there. I found something from the AIDS one the new Benetton advert, have you seen that? No. Is it really sick? Mm. Not really, it's a bit rude, I suppose. It's of erm,photo coloured photograph of, it's either a bloke or a woman, you can't tell, from there to about there, so you can see all the hair and everything it's got on the skin H I V positive. Oh, I think I have seen it. Ah, that's terrible. They're just out to shock, aren't they? Yeah, I think it's a good way, and, cos it makes people go, bloody hell. And then they take note of what the issue is, yeah. realize, don't they, yeah. So I've got all ready, for me AIDS cos I used to just think oh I don't really, I could just go and get some leaflets on ban on True. Well, I must ad I'll probably end up going down there, and getting the Our local chemist at home. Yeah, they've, they've always got this good stand, haven't they? All this stuff, loads of stuff down there about pregnancy, and measles. Yeah, so they reckoned it's not a scrapbook, but it is really. That's quite easy really, I'm quite happy doing that. Quite like that idea. But erm, yeah, it's alright. I like this girl, cos she's Welsh, just, I can't do her accent, but she kept saying it several times, he was getting really pissed off with her. He'd obviously taken time over building up this little booklet explaining the stuff. She just destroyed it in one go. Really? Like he, he was like saying, it's got to be a the word book, will eventually he was really getting into it and really going into about, you know, how it's really gonna be jam- packed with important information, and she just said,so it's just like a scrapbook really you know, when if you've filled all that up Yeah. and somebody said that. It's like, oh yeah, thanks. No, not at all And then the next bit, she says it again. No, yeah, that scrapbook, yeah, that's not got to be in till later, has it? He was really pissed off . Oh, you're gonna go down well. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, it's alright, it's okay but not a lot's going on, really, I haven't been in any activities for ages. There's quite a few erm, posters up, asking you to go along to join, the netball fiasco You're not exactly erm, No it's changed the er they've got quite a few plays going on, they've got chess going on Really? with er, what d'ya call it, Barbara you know? Oh, right, the musical. Have you seen about Er, Barbara Dickson and Elaine Paige. Yeah, yeah that one. They've got that one going on. Have they. That should be quite good to watch. And er, and they've they're out doing the Rocky Horror Show as well. Surely erm, what's her face, er, Jane was it Jane? No, she hasn't. Yeah, I don't know why. How's she getting on with her drama, do you know? Yeah, she likes that subject, she not that keen on French, cos she thinks she isn't that advanced. Oh dear. It's all completely in French, the whole lesson Oh, that's a bit worrying, innit? Everything, once you go in there, Oh. you speak French and that's it. Oh, that's really worrying, isn't it? I shouldn't be able to do that, ah. Yeah, so she said it's a bit, cos she only got an E for French, and she's not very good at it. Oh God, So, she is finding it hard. Yeah. I bet she is. So erm,sh I don't know, she might be alright. She's not said about me being out of it, but erm, see if you do that, you see, you get a year in France. Really? That's like your brother, he's doing Spanish isn't he? Yeah. Yeah. He's doing Spanish. Is he?take a year out. Really? start a new job as well, Yeah. like he doesn't know if he's going on a bit at the moment, he's just wandering about, Yeah. we'll see. But I don't know what she's gonna do. But erm, I haven't seen much of her at all this week, because erm, they've all been out, I mean, they went up to London to see Miss Saigon, and they were gonna go out for a meal up there, and Bloody hell, that takes some money, don't it? Yeah, but they've got it. Yeah, exactly. You know, she's got fifty quid coming in every week. Yeah, that's true. Plus a grant. Yeah, she's well away. has she. She can afford to do that. So they went up there and did that, and then, I ca they've done quite a lot and then they're going up London tomorrow, I think. So I don't see much of her. So you think they'll probably stay up there next weekend? Don't know. I'll see, I might, might go out tomorrow instead of Sunday. I don't know yet, I don't know . What's happening about your car, is Craig going to take it back with him? Well, I suppose he might as well, I mean, if you're off work, he might as well have it, mightn't he? Yeah, that's true. Mm. Unless I feel like being really vindictive, saying, I want the car. No. I don't need it. I could have done with it, I couldn't get on the bloo they got this internal bus service that runs from each college, cos you have to go to the other colleges for your lectures, and I just sort, there's not enough, and you, you get turned away, and I just thought, I went for that bus Tuesday morning, I was supposed to get it at eight fifteen, and he just said sorry,no more room . Oh no, so what happens then? So, security guard came over, and if you go up to the next stop,bus, you could come in with them. So we got on that bus, and he didn't like it, this bus driver,oh, you're not supposed to be on here What, because you hadn't parked your cars there first? Yeah, but the thing is, we're not from college, so that means their students are gonna be, like, pushed out. Yeah. So anyway, we got on, and he Well, that's their problem, they should get more bloody buses. Yeah, yeah, yeah, the thing was, because it left about fifteen minutes later, at a quarter past eight, there was so much difference in traffic, Mm. half eight, getting on quarter to nine, it was jam-packed and I didn't get into the college. It's a ten minute bus ride. I didn't get into that college until gone half nine. Oh, really? To my lecture. Yeah, I didn't walk in till half nine. The lecture starts at nine. And the bus left at a quarter past eight. Hour and a quarter. I could have travelled home. Yeah. Bloody hell. Honestly, it was just sitting there, we were just not moving. Well, you probably know what it's like, I was just sitting there. Is it, is your parking permit saying what college you're at? Yeah, I have to. I'm not allowed to park in their colleges, other colleges. See what I mean? Yeah. So I can't drive there Said you can't get on the bus either . No. That's what I said. Well, the good thing is, where Southlands is, which is on the south which is a very nice area. Well, it's not that nice, but there's a hell of a lot of little roads, all around it, it's not a like Roundtree is, is it? It's just on a little main road, but it's situated almost in this housing estate. They must say, God they must get pissed off with it, so I've already looked around, and there's loads of parking places, Mm. there's no yellow lines, there's loads of little roads. That's true. I mean, I could park it there, if Nicole didn't want to drive. But the, the bus, the erm staggered. You got a bus at eight fifteen, and you got another bus at one o'clock, and you got another bus at three o'clock, and another bus at six You serious? and, and if you wanna come home, there's supposed to be a bus at half past four, and our lecture finished at quarter to four, so you like, three quarters of an hour to get to the bus, right, and then it didn't turn up. So we had to wait for the next bus, which was six o'clock. Oh no. It's a long time. We were sitting like this, sitting on the pavement, with our umbrellas up Imagine what it'd be like, when it's really cold. And I thought to myself, oh gosh, just drive up there, Yeah. it's only a ten minute drive. Yeah. I picked the right time. See that's the thing, if I wanna go and do my studying, I can't just go, I have to and, and dinner starts at erm, if I've got a lecture, my lecture is sort of one o'clock. Just before one o'clock and the bus goes at five past one. So I haven't got time to get any dinner. No. See what I mean? Well, what about No. So I have to get a bit, er jump on the bus, and then erm, either get something to eat at their college, but then, by that time, you see, cos dinner starts at quarter to twelve, it's all gone. And we went there last time, and all they had left was chips and this fatty stew. Er, that's And that's it. No veggies or nothing, no salad. No veggies No. Oh dear So, it's, alright it's not a major problem, but that's the only difficulty with it is it's not, it's good having the bus service where you don't have to pay, right, if you don't, like I didn't realize the bus went at five past one, and I was all ready to go, and er, it was ten past one, and I thought, oh no, so I had to wait till three o'clock. Do some work. That's a bit silly really. Yeah, and then the next bus from six o'clock, is eight o'clock. And that's the last bus home. You would have thought these buses would It's only a ten minute, it's about a ten minute journey from Digby to Southlands. Fifteen to Southlands to Whiteland. It's all round in a circle, it's not like then, I don't know why. How peculiar. Yeah, it is a bit of a pain. But the people who Q T S course, have got a lot of work. Have they? Mm, much more than me. I'm glad I'm not doing that. Really? Loads of assignments have been set already. They're really quite heavily bogged down, and they were to do them all, er one day at school. Really, bloody hell. Yeah the teachers seem to do nothing do they? Really? I mean, Ann finished lectures, Ann's finished lectures yesterday, she's a secondary teacher and she doesn't have a lecture again until after Christmas. Really? And she's got another two weeks off now, until she goes into schools and then she's in the schools full-time, but even so, she won't have, she didn't have exams. She had exams last January, didn't she, and she hasn't had exams since last January, she won't have until next during June. Really? And like, she has, like, although she's doing secondary teaching, she has it easier than anybody. Mm. At this stage, anyway. I mean, it'll probably get harder. I wouldn't mind doing that, if there was, if I could do secondary teaching. Really? Mm. But I wouldn't wanna do primary or junior, just Well do, would you be, is it T T S, secondary, T T S, weren't it? No, but primary Well, in T T S T T S they can't do secondary. Only do primary and junior. Oh, no in, in our college they're doing secondary. Cos I asked them about it, and they said I'd much rather be doing that. Mm, yeah I would really. Small ones, I just don't think there's much, get much out of it get much, getting much out of it. I mean, some, some people at our section which is four and five year olds. It's not bad. It's like being in a play-group, innit? Yeah. It's like taking Yeah. But they don't, they don't do it. Mm. Have you found out when the Yes. When is it? February. You've got to have one before then. That's when you said. You've got to have one in November. Surely they did have one last year, didn't they their outing. Kerry would have had one. Well, I looked at my list and it says February, and I've got a list of my lectures for every week. Really? Yeah. That sounds odd though, surely. Does have one? Next term's a long term as well. Is it? We did agree to meet, but I don't same time tomorrow. And I asked him I said, what does this reading week mean, and he went, oh, just do what you want, really. Cos I've got a reading week in three we two weeks, two weeks. I don't know when it is. I've got a reading week in two weeks. Yeah, I've got a week off. Oh. Well, I'll ask Ian, they, they might not have told us, because, I don't know, they would have told us, wouldn't they? They should do really. I've got a list of every lecture on my booklet. They give you a booklet for each subject, and I've got a list, a lec a lecture every week, until February, when it just says reading week. Oh, perhaps you have got leave. It does seem odd. Claire has a lot longer term than us. I think it's ridiculous, really. Mine are twelve week terms. I think ours is only eleven, that's what we was told. Mine are twelve. I thought it was thirteen, was it? Twelve, twelve and twelve. Could be. No, it's not, it's not as long as thirteen. Yours is on eight. You got an eight week term. Yeah, we've got an eight week term, the last term's eight weeks. So long to Christmas. Cos your the last ones aren't you? Mm. What was I saying? Seems odd, I'm sure he showed me, he showed me a reading week before Christmas. That's like what I think mine says. Tight. I'm sure we should. Mind you I'll ask him, cos he'll know. Perhaps I I should. Yeah, it is due, I'm sure it's due. Yeah. Yeah. Two weeks' time, we've got a week off. I haven't even looked, cos I don't even, I haven't even thought about it, you know. Everyone else keeps going on about it, and all like, oh, I can't go home, cos there's not enough Last year, reading week was, it seemed for ages, wasn't it? It did, didn't it, yeah. It seemed weird, it was so,oh, it's nearly November, I'm getting worried. That's alright. It's nearly Christmas. Oh, that's alright. Half my year's gonna be gone, and I'm sort of, going for the third year, and it's really heavy. Oh. It's going so quick. But erm I'm sure you're right. Maybe I have done, maybe it's just not printing it. They normally have one a year, they probably just haven't edited up. We had two though, didn't we? Didn't we have one la in the second year,or something, I'm sure we did. We didn't Rebecca. Oh, didn't we oh, that's what it is, then, you get yours in February. That's what I'm saying to you. Ah, bit silly though, innit, starting I'm sure we had another reading week. Oh, shit, you're just like me, you are. I swear blue in the face that I'm right, and then somebody comes on and goes oh yeah. Well, put it this way, if it isn't on Sunday, it's a bit of a long time, because I come back January the fourteenth, fourteenth, and I've had all Christmas off, haven't I? So I'm gonna be back, like a week, you think they'd make it a bit more so I've done most of No, I know what I'm thinking of, I'm, if ever, I'm thinking of revision week, cos that was a week, we wasn't it? Yeah. And then we had another revision week in June. See , there's two revision weeks, and a reading week. Yeah, and And then what? Of all the things that the transport division Mm. Really, I think they should give us reading week. I don't know. Well, only because I don't get one, they give you a weekend. Still, can't complain. No, shouldn't have done. Suppose to be a reading week. I know, I know, I'm gonna be in it. I've got so much bloody reading to do. I've got loads Has Miss gone She's coming back either tonight or, She gone home already. She's gone home, yeah. She went home last night. She's not gonna be back here very long, then. No, well she wants to go Oh, I see. all right, so she came back. She wants me to go to the theatre though, I don't think she'll enjoy Chekhov very much. Don't you? No, I'm not sure I will. I'm only going cos I got to. No. Yeah, she's coming back tomorrow. She's either coming back tomorrow morning or tonight. Aren't you going to the pictures tonight? No. Thought you was. Too expensive. I've spent too much money already so Did you get my message, then? Yes. It's about an asylum. He's a really nice chap. Is it her He was very young. He was right along the end without a sink. Ah. Yes. without a sink, he's got the only room without a sink He, he said, I said is Joanne in, and he went, oh, I don't think she is, actually. And I went, there's a message here for her, if Rebecca phones, I went, yes, I'm Rebecca, oh, right, okay. You leave a message like, and it's like, erm, I'll pop over and see you,and I was like, I mean, he just paused for breath, and I went, well, what time, and he went, well hang on, the message hasn't finished yet. So I went sorry, sorry, and he went, it's alright, and he went in, oh, thanks for that, thanks very much. He went, okay, then. He said, I'll give her the message, I tell her that everything's fine. I said, yeah, tell her that I got the message, and that you know, it's all fine. Okay then, right, see you later. Bye. I spoke to him last night as well. I mean, when I think I was with my bags and things and he went,Jo, the message has gone through, everything's fine I went,your sister, I relayed that little message which I thought was which I thought was rather comical, you see, and I said, oh did you, and he said yeah. He said, everything's okay, she's got measles. He's a nice bloke. Yeah. He seems like fluid poems. Her and Kate will come and see me at four o'clock and her and Kate will come and visit you. They will not be coming to the cinema, and I was like, what time are they gonna come, and he was like, hang on, I haven't finished yet. four o'clock, and he was like read it and he oh,only fed ten P in and I got all the information that I needed to know. Yeah, I've written it all out in block. Mm. He was only seventeen, wasn't he? Mm. Is he really? Yeah, I think he was bored with this. How can you go to our while you're only seventeen. That's illegal isn't it? To be eighteen. He's just turned eighteen. Yeah, exactly, with like me, late birthday. Well, very late, September. Yeah, he can, I mean look at Shane, he's got a Yeah. very early birthday. Yeah. I'm getting bored with him. Mm. But So he is a year on, behind you Rebecca, you get what I mean. cos I know you've got a late birthday, and that. He be, he be, they be, he'll be in the year below me, but his birthday will be like,mine. Yeah. I see. Has your dad gone back home? No, digs How's your mum cope with that. Is she alright? He's only gone back for Yeah, that's not long. Oh, God. He's going to me erm, yeah, well, actually he wasn't really that drunk, was he, on Saturday, No. Saturday night? But he was talking to me, and he said, he said ah how, how you getting on over there, and he went yeah, yeah, it's alright, you know, but it's not where I want to be, you know, away from me family. I like being in with my family. He said I like being in with me boys. He said, and it's really good, he said, cos I'm, I'm celebrating my fortieth birthday, he said, and I ring my boys, he said, and they listen to the same sort of music I do. He said, whereas my mum over there in the corner, he said, if she had a bash I had to listen to bloody Frank Sinatra, wouldn't I? And I'd go, yeah. It's like yeah. He said, yeah, I like being home with the family. He said, but I'm only going back out there another he said, so it won't be too long. I said, yeah. it's not. Fancy Jane going and having a bust-up down the I'm not surprised, Christ. She's relaying all marital problems, to everyone, wouldn't she. They're alike though, ain't they? Did you see her when she Busting out of her dress. Erm, your, I think it was Dwayne or was it, it's either Dwayne, or erm, er Bob knocked a glass over, and er,Jane was like erm, trying to like, she was like going Edward move away, I'm trying to sh I'm trying, look, I'm trying to stop people dancing round here, and like, these, all this, this er, glass on the floor, right, Jane was standing there going like this, dancing round all this glass, and like she was going like this, and everyone that walked past, she was going,broken glass and she was saying, and she was, she kept on going broken glass, they done it. And she's still dancing, it's really funny . She's ain't she? Oh dear. She started crying one Yeah, I know she did, I saw her. Shouldn't keep smoking and fighting in the middle of the front room. She was crying in the pub. Talking about how much she hated The bloke He's so drunk, he don't . She goes,piss off . Yeah. So they had another big fight down there, didn't they? Oh dear. Yeah, I went in the kitchen, and She was pretty upset, though, weren't she? Well, she upsets herself. Yeah. She's a bit like that. Bit ain't she? Someone walked past her, and spilt all the drink down her front, that didn't go down very well. Trip. Bloody hell, I try and get bloody dressed up, should be looking, stupid sod, drunk, got drink all down me. I think Dwayne, just, he was, just wasn't, wasn't that interested. Can't blame him. He was just, oh, it was funny. he deliberately, I was standing next to him,he was just leaning on me. That's Dwayne. Just leaning on me. You know that they all disgust me, and er, John went yeah, that's the sort of woman I like. Comes carrying a load of in her hand. It was like, shut up. He's a real prat, ain't he? I was sitting there going,ha ha ha got a stuck. I tell Oh, Lord. That's a pint glass gone. Naked woman on it. Ain't it, it's like out of a porno mag. It is bad. I don't know how he got that on there. The It's not painted. But when, when when the colour glass is full, she's got clothes on. Oh, really? Never. Yeah, when he drinks his pints, he knows I didn't see that. Good, ain't it? Really? Yeah. It's like them pens you get at the seaside. Where do you get that then? Oh you think he bought the glass like it. Yeah, it's, it's just the same as that. Do you think he bought the glass like it? No, I don't think Yeah, but how could Jim do that? It's just a stick-on thing. Oh. I knew before. Mm. I think that's good, that is. Good laugh. Yeah. So you, what are you going to do tonight, then? Go up the bar? Yeah. I think there's a I ain't been to the bar Weren't you? Oh, although Haven't you? No. Ah Really erm, food. It's something like it's called. It's not Have a Shave. I know it's not called Have a Shave . Oh, I saw a poster like that. Shaggy Shag something, in our place. It was a yellow poster and it had shaggy all on it. But mind you, I didn't know what this shag society was about. There was Annie going,and our president was standing there going, aye aye, you seen this, Tom, have you seen this? She like, pointing to this big shag poster, and I thought, Oh God. What's going on here. No, I think it's, it's a dis it's a disco, and it's got some kind of title, the shaggy party, or something. I don't know. shaggy I haven't seen it. I haven't seen it. The other one was called, erm, flip your wig. Oh, I saw that. Frank said that was really funny. Yeah. Seventeen Afro person. Yeah. Yeah. Erm, so I think we're going to that crap. I don't care really. Right on. The drink's, the drink's cheap, ain't it? Well, it's not It's right I suppose. It's not really cheap is it? It's not at our place, though, is it? Isn't it? Not really. else's is more, more subsidized than our, though. Yeah, ours is bad. But it's still cheaper than a pub. Yeah, yeah. So we'll have a couple of drinks and that's it for tonight. Mhm. Jane said that last week, cos I thought it was a disco, cos when it first described it me, it was real crap, and there was this colour guy and his friend, and all they wanted to play was black, they looked like they got no bones when they were dancing. You know like, dislocated themselves. It's really Really, oh no. And in fact, all they played all night. The funny thing was, I find this really amusing, the bloke who was running the disco, he was putting loads of records on, then going dancing. Really, excellent. How was he doing that? Yeah, he really did, and the record would end, and then he'd plonk back. So they were just playing the music that they liked. It was only those two dancing all night. Oh, what. That's what made it so obvious, because it was, he would put the records on, and then come out and start dancing, and I thought I'm not going that No, they played that,sh what's it, shake, shake, shake the room, bought that. Oh, she didn't, oh remember the other day,Take That. I didn't ask. Oh. I didn't even supposed Would it? She said, yeah. ought to see lounge, she's got Take That disco, and Take That Oh, Jesus, she's driving us up the wall. She's trying to go out and get tickets to see 'em. Is she? She's got tickets. That's the trouble, but we got a note through the door this morning from our friend Kerry. Don't buy the Take That tickets. I'll explain later,and she's last night . Oh no. I think it's really funny, cos it's thirty quid she's spent on two tickets, and she's telling us, she's got no money. She's spent fifteen quid on her tickets for the concert. Oh, shit. She's bought the C D of them, this week, and I'm just like, oh my God. Does she really like them, then? Well. I think she's somebody that just like, has to go with the flow, with what her friends are doing, and all her friends back home are really seriously into them. Really? I just think what a load of rubbish. How old is she? She's twenty . Blimey. Yeah, but I thought Take That was for twelve year olds. Well, it is, innit. Yeah, likes a bit of Take That. She don't. She does, that's the kind of thing she likes, Fred, innit? Ah, she's sad, ain't she? Oh yeah. I bet Kerry likes them, don't she? She is a sad person, anyway. That's true. Too true. Does Kerry like Take That any more, or has she gone off them? I don't know really. Trouble is You don't communicate any more, do you? No, she's a bit odd, Kerry, listening to the Rolling Stones and U B Forty. Bit out her ain't she? Especially at the volume she listens to it. I know. Listens phworgh. Really loud? Yeah. Yeah. Really loud. Really loud. Much louder than anybody else. You have to go and knock on her door, cos she can't hear you shouting. Is it loud ? Yeah. She's got to, to, I mean, she could have it that loud at ten o'clock at night, she just doesn't, she doesn't think. She doesn't realize that everyone else is in bed asleep. And, and the telly on as well, cos every night I come everything going. Including the hairdryer, just Oh dear. She didn't look very happy at your party did she? No. Great big coat on, must have been sweating her eyeballs out. I kept telling her to take it off She said it was new, so But she said, I can't be bothered. She's this massive big coat on, and I said to her,sh I said, she said, I said you alright, Kerry She's too much yeah. big ain't it. Makes her look even It's really massive innit. Yeah. Lisa had one of them for a little while. Yeah. I hated it. coats. It's what they go for, I suppose. Yeah. I suppose so. It's all the fashion, innit? Yeah. Rather be spivvy. on the back of his it's just so sad. cut as well, innit? I know. My brother, oh, it's sad. My brother's got this mate at school, called Victor. He's got a pair of shearing scissors and he's been doing like, this boy's African, so he's got, you know, Afro hair, which you can do curly-wurly signs on the back of him, it looks pretty neat. But Ryan decided that he'd have his head shaved at the back of his head, so he got this boy to write his name on. It shows you how thick this boy is, he wrote on his name, he spelt it R I E N . Rien. and this is really sad, and he told me mum that he'd been to a hairdressers and done it. Oh, did he? Yeah. How did you know it was his friend done it? Cos of Nat cos Natalie, she's a right little squealer, she is. I don't, Natalie's Samantha's sister. Erm, she, she at school with Ryan, I don't suppose the hairdresser in the same year. Well, my brother had a smack, cos Natalie tells her what Ryan's been up cos she's a bit like that, erm, likes to sort of erm, squeal, you know. She said, have you seen Ryan's hair. I said, yeah, and she went ah, she went, Victor did that. I went what ? I went, is this this well hard bloke from Brixton, cos Ryan keeps going on about it, like we I said, is he do, I said, oh, we went to Oxford Street today, and he went, is that anywhere near Brixton? I went I don't think so, Ryan, and he went, ah, cos I wanna go up there, it's well hard up there. I thought, why he's saying that, and then I looked, and Victor comes through now, and he went, yeah, I wan he goes, I wanna go up London and get some clothes, get some really stylish stuff up London, I was like, yeah, Ryan. I said, you only get a bigger selection, that's about it. He said, no you don't. Victor says. And I thought like ah, and then mum sa I told mum, and she went you bastard, he told me that he gone and went to the hairdressers and done that. She went, right I'll get him, and I went, oh don't mum, I said, don't embarrass him. Do you know what she said, she went, what, I'm gonna bloody see that Victor. I went,no you're not I said, don't do that, it's not nice, mum. I said, you wouldn't like it. She went, oh, she went oh I won't, I'll just wind him up. And Ryan came in and she went oh, she went, I just learned who did er, your er little bit of hairstyling there Ryan. She went, he's pretty good with a pair clippers, ain't he, old Victor. Well, I went ha ha ha and she went, yes, I have heard, and he went, yeah, well, well, well, I mean, he just didn't how to spell my name. And she went, you wait,mu my mum went She gobbled him up with it. Yeah. My mum went, you wait till I see Victor, she said, I'm gonna bloody have him. Right, see ya, what are you gonna do after Erm, bye-bye you've finished? I don't know. I don't know. Well, we w What time do you finish? Well, we finish at nine, but er, might go up to the bar. Well, I tell you what, if you walk over to Annette's. If, if you want to go to the bar, walk over to Annette's after you've finished, because we probably won't go up until about nine, half nine, would we, and then we'll go up with ya. Well, we'll wait until you come round, and then decide what to do. okay, Yeah, that's a good idea. And then you know, if you've coming back, I'll drop you back home. Thank you. Rather than walk back on your own. thank you. Have fun. Yeah. Bye. See ya. Bye. See you later. Oh no, she's got to walk round with him. The thing is, you can't really, you couldn't sort of see this jagged mess. He's made a right mess of it. He shaved up the back, hasn't he? It's odd and even. Yeah, but, yeah And you get this, this bit here he's all shaved, his hair come back over it. See like, long hair here, so it's hanging down, scraggily,so you've got like a shaved head, with all these bits here ain't ya? So it covers it up a little bit, but it looks like he's gone bald. No. Because he's like, long bits of hair, like this thick, hanging over, a shaved head,and you know, you know Tina, you know Tina Turner, you know her husband kept on going like this all the time yeah mine does that all the time yeah, I go oh pack it in. Like Peter, you know, he does all this, like he keeps going, oh show it to me, I can't I'm trying to grow it. I'm trying it down, like, so it's round here. Do you think it'd be good like that, and I went, yes Ryan it'd look much better. Cos he keeps growing his hair, to sort of there, and then he has it cut off, don't he, he's shaved. Cos he has to have it undercut, cos that's hard. He's full of being hard, isn't he, Ryan? He is, ain't he, just full of it. Oh I've got something, erm, Peter's in prison, Oh no, really? Three years. You're joking. No. Really? I when I went, you know when I went down, do you remember I told you that I got caught up with him? Yeah. And like I went down for that one Monday. Yeah. And erm, I knew he was going to prison. It was for something that happened about five or six years ago. He was in a fight with these erm, squatters. Really? And it's taken all this time to come round. Yeah, yeah, and now it's come round Three years. Three years er three years, five years if he misbehaves, and Clayton,you say, eighteen. Yeah Two years if he's good. Bloody hell. I mean, he's been into court but not for that long. It's more of a shock, because, yeah, I know, because nobody knew. We thought he would just get like a, a community service from Lee. I don't know. I didn't know from Lee. Jim phoned me up and told me, he was like upset. Oh, shit. Oh dear. it's sad though, because What has his mates done. We're collecting loads of things for him to keep him occupied. Like drawing books and that, and pencils,you buy him trains and stuff. What a waste of time, cos he'll only sell them for things he Yeah, course he will. It's like, it's ge you know, he's really upset about it, but I'm just thinking Be different if you can do that. Yeah. Yeah, he's really upset, I feel sorry for him, cos he's been upset about it, but Oh dear. That his brother lied to him,like that . Yeah, but he don't know that, does he? I know. He thinks his, you know, he thinks his I wonder how Julia's bearing up, even though it's all broken up. Yeah, he does, he thinks it's another just that he has a little drink now and then. Now and then. Just a few, yeah. Just a few, just a tipple. Oh, dear. Mm, so. Better not let Ryan find out. No, why's that? You know what he's like. Big mouth? Yeah. He'd be on about it. He won't find out, will he? No, I know. But it's just Ryan really, anybody that's in any shit, Ryan really aspires to. Oh yeah. Like cos he was asking me about Shane Was Shane good at school? Did he, did he used to be naughty and I was like, I don't Ryan, and you got, I bet he did. You know, anybody, and like, he sees, if he sees erm, who else does he relief fund. There's a poster up in erm, and these two people that are drug addicts, and said like,did you see that I'd drawn a pair of ears on one of them, turned around and seen Shane and he's like his mate was the other one, weren't it? Ryan loved that . Have you seen that poster. Holy Communion. Poor boy. Don't tell him blue eyes Oh dear. I know that's not funny, but, it is funny. It is Ryan just revels in anybody who's been naughty, he think he really is spite which I think is a bit frightening in a child, really. It is because he'll be Yeah Looks to just led into Yeah, he is, he's very easily led, Ryan, you know, and he's very into, you know, getting on with the gang. Which is really sad. But erm, he's a little shit. Called me, he's called me a college crappy, he goes why don't you go back, he goes, why don't you go back to college, you college crappy. He went, you're just a drop-out, you're just sponging off the government. I was like, shut up, Ryan. He's like, I know your sort. fourteen. Yeah. But the sad thing is, he's got he's got quite a bit of brain, ain't he, to come out, you know, little things like, although they're rude, he's obviously aware, but he's wasting it all, ain't he? I know. Quite intelligent. It's like, what was he, he was going, oh that's right,he keeps going, I can't, but they're cold now but he was like, at the dinner table once, right, and Ryan and Gran argue continuously, and he was going erm, and he went, Gran, and Gran went, yeah, and he went, do you know what you are, and Gran went no, and he went, well, I can't remember what it's called, he goes, they're this, I think it's a hybrid, he goes, you're a hybrid. He goes, do you know what one of them is, he goes, it's just sort of like evolutionary thing between the ape and man, and he goes, it's sort of part way between, and it's sort of like some sort of creature, and it's half like an ape and half like a human, and he goes, and you're one of them he goes, you're one of them Gran, he goes, you've got a brain like one of them, as well, and Gran just like went oh shut up Ryan. She doesn't really know what to say. Oh, shut up Ryan, and then he sits there for a bit,and she goes, yeah well, you used to wear national health spectacles. Ha ha ha and Ryan goes, oh shut up Gran. But he's like, when they think they can get any little thing they can think of to wind each other up. It was so amusing. But it just go Ryan is, you know, he's a bright boy. Yeah, I know, it's sad ain't it? But like,Mi Miss said to me, when I went up there, she said, ah I know, she said, you hear a lot of bad stuff about Ryan, she said, but he's a nice, he's a nice little boy really, and she said, he's very polite, he's very polite, he can be very polite to you. She said, and a lot of the time, she said, he's a, he's a little sod, she said, but you know, she said, I mean, it's not all bad things about him, and I said, I've been hearing things about you from Miss , and she oh, what she's been bloody saying, I bet she's been saying I'm crap at English. Yeah well . I said, actually Ryan, she had some good bloody things to say about ya. He sort of went, ha ha, and shut up. Oh he's a little sod. He's, he's funny but it's not, cos if Ryan's, he's not going to get anywhere, because he's just a little shit, basically. Mm. Do with him? Yeah, he is funny. Like, what if I opened the door, right, he didn't know I was coming home, he went, he looked at me and went, what are you doing here, I went, oh thanks Ryan, and he went, no, no I didn't mean it like that, I was just a bit surprised to see you like. I thought, yeah, yeah. I mean, he's all, I mean he walked in the door, he was, I'm coming down the garden, and erm, he walked down the garden and he'd seen me, and he started really smiling. Ah. you alright, and Ryan was giving it,Janna, what's he the Janna, the Janna, The Janna's here. The Janna's here. My Janna. My Janna's here. I was here. Take your shoes off, wouldn't she? Try and get your shoes off. Take 'em. Mm. She said, let your friend sit here. she said, he is your friend. Yeah, but she, she calls him, it's you're her daughter. Yet everybody else you who you are, and Kate is my daughter. Mum says it's not your daughter. You know, I think if we confused her one day, Yeah. we kept asking her,if like she said, if you said to her, where does Joanna live. Joanna lives in her house. Joanna lives with my Aunty Jill, I said, you know, Yeah, but she's got a bit of a problem with that. Because there's so many. She keeps on about all the time, every time I'm there. Where you going now. Whose house are you going to. It's almost like I'm a refugee I felt right I'm like, you know, When you go home now, to which house? Where are you going. We were walk walking to erm the, down the high street and a plane went over, and erm, I think mum must have been saying to her about Aunty Jill being on holiday, and she went, ah, there's Aunty Jill in the plane going to the city. It was really funny. I said, where did she get that from, my mum went oh I don't know. She went, yeah, my Aunty Jill's gone to the city, she's gone to a city. And then she said to me, and then, when I was going, she went to me, would you like to come on holiday, I went, then she went, because of me and mum and dad, we went another day to holiday, we went to beach, and er, mum said, that, yeah, mum said that she was saying, erm, to her, why, why is it not, what was it she said, about the weather, mum was moaning saying it was cold, and she went why, why aren't we go on holiday, mum, and mum said we can't, we can't afford to go on holiday, and she ah, why don't we go to seaside when it's cold. Mum says cos it costs lots of pennies, she went ah, another day, we'll go another day. It's really funny. She's got no concept of time. No, she hasn't age, because she thinks she's she's been a big girl, and she's now a little girl. That's right, yeah. She thinks she's er, when I was like you, when I was a big girl, Yeah. I did things like that. Yeah. Whereas not I will do things like that when I get older. Yeah, she thinks that she's been big already Yeah, when I was, er she says when I was as big as Rebecca or when I was a big Joanna, it's always the name. What did she say she did Just like, got something on, or you got something. Yeah. Yeah. I had one of them Yeah. when I was a big girl. Yeah. I had some like that. Like, like little lies, sort of, you know, she sort of pretends, that's her pretend role. Yeah. Well, yeah, I suppose it, yeah. Yeah she, she does that, don't she? She's got this erm, dinosaur, that she like, tied a, a la a bootlace round, this luminous bootlace round it. She dragged it, drags it around, and it's called, erm, little frog, what is it called? Little froglet dog, little my little froglet dog, that's it. Froglet doggie, it's called or something. I think that's what it's called, something really funny. and she calls it my froglet doggie. And you say, who's this, she's says, my, this is my little froglet baby big doggie, or something like that. She puts it in, and you ask her all questions about, she tells you it about it, and it has to be, and it only drinks orange squash, cos that's wh what only Marie only drinks. Marie only drinks orange squash. She goes, it only drinks orange squash. What's it have to drink? Orange squash. Yeah. And likes your light on when it goes to bed. She does. If you go out and switch her light off and leave her in the room. Come back and put my light on . Really? I don't like it in the dark . You can, if you go up there. you've done it, she's had to get out and put it on herself. You put my light off, I don't like that, you put my off. My mummy doesn't like that. that, yeah. I tell my mummy of you. Mummy Bit of a squealer. Yeah, I suppose she has to be with Ryan Ryan tried to push her down, and get her to fall downstairs the other day. No. step one forward more, edging her away, telling her to balance on them. not very nice is it? They're little shits like that. Ah, but then there's quite a big gap though, really. Oh, yeah. It's hardly surprising. I mean, Mark used to pick on me rotten, and he was only four years older than me. Yeah. So, like Ryan's, what, nearly ten, ten years older than her. Mm. Yeah, I'm sorry, yeah. Well, Ryan's not He just gets stressed out with her. He does, he does. niggles now and then. Yeah, she, she. Like I've him at, watched him a few times, she goes,get off he says,what Yeah. he's old enough to carry it off,but me mum says to her, now erm, she says like what, what do you do Marie, if he's annoying you, and she goes like that she goes Ryan's Yeah. He's like,no I don't she's like Leave her alone. Do you want to go and get something to eat, then. I know you're all hungry. Yeah, I've got to go out in half an hour, actually. Have you? Yeah. What shall we do? Got to go and sell some tickets. ah, it was alright, er, it was a bit, David did a good performance, erm, and there was this boy in the first year, and he was apparently been turned down by Lambda Do you know who Lambda are, I don't even know who they are. was it RADA? No, it's not RADA. It's Lambda I think it's like RADA. And he's meant to be really hip shit, shit hot good. But erm. Well, if he was turned down by RADA he can't be that good, so Erm, he acts like he think he is. I don't know whether he was turned down by them, or he turned them down, or something, I don't know. He's meant to be really good. And he was a little, he was like,try really trying to prove himself as an actor, I don't know, bit over the top, Oh God. and I thought to myself, Oh God. Yes, yeah, he's that sort. But that's not so bad. The good thing about it was,it was only on for about an hour. Excuse me. An hour and a quarter. Was it? Yeah, which was good. Ah. So erm, that was quite good. Because it didn't last very long. But it was after so it wasn't really Yeah, too taxing. No, it wasn't too taxing on the old brain. Mm. So no, no, it was alright. Erm, got back here about quarter past nine, which was great, cos it meant I could watch One Foot in the Grave. And that that one really annoyed me last night, that did. Did it? I can't stand it, I felt sorry for him. I end up feeling sorry for him every time I watch it Yeah, I do. Do you watch that Clive? No, I don't Oh, it is good. What about Absolutely Fabulous. Did you see that? Yeah. And do your exams on the first of our work in June. Bells! Usually write about, the best thing, now if you call the register erm here. In the classroom? Classroom. Actually it's behind Liz. Yeah, it's here. Yeah me. Okay. Cairan So, but we've gotta find it out. Why? So erm It's intact. Okay. Further announcement is that due to popular demand there are four extra tickets for the Winter's Tale. So, if you didn't get your act together last week and you want to go to the matinee performance of Winter's Tale on the third of November . Erm the tickets were so they want tickets but they haven't actually sent any money, so if you get in before them erm, you can have the tickets. Especially whoever pays their money first. It's five pounds Thursday the third of November, a matinee performance of A Winter's Tale. There's er already about twenty people going. Erm I have the other . Erm if you want to come along to it's a black comedy. Ya. Mhm. Cairan? Yes? Difficult aren't they? Aha. That's why I'm gonna say now why? What makes reading Johnson so difficult? The language. Okay. I don't know what, we can just talk about the language You have to look up every second word. Okay. Well I guess, look at every second word. What what bothers you? It's just, it's just so erm specialized. Right. Okay. Cos it's specialized. And by that, you mean? Well just well if, because it's all a lot of it's to do with this alca alchemical Okay. alchemal whatever it's called. Specialized. The process. Mm. Which I'd know nothing about, er but just highly specialized in itself. Yeah. And every, every word that I stumbled on Mm mm. and when I looked it up it had about six other words to go with it. Yeah. D'ya know what I mean? And, and obviously it was ridiculous, every second word I was having to look up and then I'd get all that and it moves onto the next one. Yep. Which is ridiculous. Anybody had this experience? Erm okay, the first word was erm it talked about alchemy. Any other problems with the language? Either other areas where it's very specialized and you had to look up words, or other difficulties with the Yeah. language? It's not everyday English. It's not everyday English. What at the moment, at th right, so a lot of, erm Yeah. Ah but that is a good distinction. Stereo. Erm ahead in the sense that Yeah. we're used to a lot of Shakespeare's archaisms because he was studying them at A level and Shakespeare's got so a special sort of band of them that he uses. Even so, I they can go and look up that lot of words in Shakespeare. But Johnson they're often old words that are totally out of use erm and we're not even used to Johnson's vocabulary because it's not taught in schools. At least not part the mainstream part of our culture. Any other reasons for the language difficulty? Or that the speech is difficult or the, any, any reason that there's a, a page that's difficult to read? Er, it strikes me with the, with the comedy, he's trying to be so funny that he shoots off at all these angles and not having Aha. left, sort of boundaries. Okay. So erm well, you might like to say that Mm mm mm mm. he's very fast er, deduced comedy. There's a lot going on at a very fast speed. Which makes Well I thought it was quite farce like. Sorry? I've seen the play and I thought it was quite like a farce. You know Yeah. like Okay. But this is rather what what it, makes it difficult is that I had a copy as well farce right, but don't say farcical. That's got different meanings. Er, like farce okay? As in this. Any other things that made it made it difficult for you to read? So it's only the language? The language, if it had been translated in modern language there'd be no, no problem? Were there are any reasons? It's supposed to be a play, I suppose you have to watch it. When we were reading it I found that I was just reading it as a book and the and that all the coming about you forget who's in, who's there and who's not there. Yeah. Right? Yeah. More, again, much more by the shape of it, an intensely visual dramatic play, that relies on you being able to see spatially in terms of space on the stage. People knocking on doors, people hiding behind things, people coming on in costume. You know, on the page you can't work out why erm,is suddenly called erm nuns, somebody called the Captain, you know, you, you, you think these are three different characters. On the stage you wouldn't make that mistake, you'd be able to keep track of the identity. So, another reason that just adds that is the element of disguise. In Shakespeare you know, you haven't got that many disguises going on. And, you'd be able to get one laugh, that's the idea. It's a modern gag idea that you know, Violet dressed as man or but in, Johnson ha there have numerous kinds of disguises, each Mm. to different effect. Each calling different people. Okay? Right. We've got some idea as to why, why we found it difficult to read. Which also help us understand the kind of comedy altogether, erm that . Let's see if we can refine those like us looking at the first two lines of the play. Erm okay. We'll read them through and pause for a while and try to think of the, also in terms of the physical, you know, erm staging. Erm okay, who's gonna be Face? I'll have Jo as Face I'll have Monica as Sottle, and we'll have Mia as Don. Okay? Just the first Mhm. ten or twenty lines. Right, off you go. At least I will. How are your wits? Why don't you run for us? Oh don't be ridiculous! What to do, a little bit of pantomime. Ro rode out of the woods tonight. No don't keep suffering . Forever while she breathes I'll go and see and fetch some water, will you come? Will you have the ?betrayal. Hark! I hear somebody. Yeah. I shall mar all of that he has made and foraged. This way! This way! Why? Who am I then my love? Who am I? I'll tell you, since you know about yourself. Did you know ? Yes she belongs to time not long past. The good honest that kept your master's worship house when he requires . Will you please go out? Since translated so that I'll be the Captain. By your needs such as those . With the amount of my money all this must . . Okay, we'll sto stop there. Now even in that had a fairly dry reading through. Are there any things you want to add to that list, just looking at that? Di different language and er, and what's going on. Yeah. In I think the people were speaking faster. Alright. You, looking through it and almost laughing at the . Right. I think that almost , we've got another aspect of erm comedy, comedy it's really on the basis of arguments, fighting complication between people. Which, as you quite rightly say you really need to hear, hear the voices going on. and I'll get some people along the middle in a moment and, and do it. Any, any other things? Did anybody snigger on anything No. in those thirty lines? Come on, there are rude words in there. I mean I grinned at farts. Good! Okay. Brunt, and a bit of a at the moment. Erm I mean Shakespeare did not, correct me if I'm wrong, use words like fart and, certainly doesn't use words like fuel gauge, have a leg over things like that, and things like, okay? So it's rude language. Which is funny. I mean, we are all er very sympathetic at the end of the twentieth century, but, you know, we can still laugh when somebody says fart on stage. Erm there are other examples of that. You'll be glad to know that in line four and five,What to do? Lick figs out of my he's actually saying lick piles from my and, you know the audience replies fig fig . And the actor could, you know, draw attention the part of the anatomy he's talking about. I mean, this is not this is not his sense of humour but it is visual, it involves the audience. Like, if you break off a line like, lick figs out of my something, you're getting the audience going because the audience is supplying the rude bits. Okay? Any other things that were a problem about that clip? Okay. Forget that funniness. Why is it different from Shakespeare? What's the difference between that opening scene and say the opening scene in Twelfth Night or Winter's Tale? Were they di different? There's no asides view. Right. That's another problem actually I hadn't thought of that. It's all but everybody's erm everybody's involved from the word go, so and the structure the so think about that point. No, are no asides. Erm I suppose there are later on in the play er th characters speak to each other and say very good that stupid berk over there kind of aside, but what you don't get is any structures of characters as such. You never get told what different characters are like in th er by somebody else. You don't get introduced to characters, you don't plunge straight in. Er yeah, I have thought of a very different one. I mean they don't, er, in the middle of things. You're not really given any background either. Yeah. So Shakespeare always usually gives you a bit of you know, you just got the two gentleman speaking clear and . Yeah. Exactly. And we accept those things. You know, give us a chance to get into the play and get comfortable on our feet and we'll have a go, well, Johnson doesn't give you that option does he? It's straight in there there's a fight between three, two men and a woman, you don't know what's going on, they're just abusing each other and and the picture is there. Now Johnson it brilliant for doing abuse. There's this wonderful put down. I'll have please. . Erm okay. So in a very different world to that of Shakespearean comedy, a must harsher abrasive world erm again th that bit where she's ge get , do I get the impression that most of you found yours much more difficult to get into Yeah. than Shakespeare? Yeah. Mm mm. Yeah? Does anybody have this ? Er, mm Erm, I found it was like reading Shakespeare when I first started reading Shakespeare. Yeah. Cos it's I think, different types. Yeah. You get used to Shakespeare. Yeah. It's, it's, you get used to the way he works. Okay, I think, I think that is, that is a point. Again, that came up this morning as well. That Shakespeare's so central to our heritage i you learn him at O level, you learn him at A level, you get used to him. Erm he's part of our language and, and therefore, you know, to go on to Johnson it's very different. Like you say, it takes much more time to get into it. But I think Johnson does make it harder for us. There are no characters to get involved with as the there are in in Shakespeare. We can't really imagine ourselves you don't really have sympathy for any of the characters in the . They're all fairly sort of silly characters. Whereas in, in Twelfth Night or whatever, we might actually feel involved within the, the people in the play. Certainly . Okay, well I'll leave all those up there. Erm can you look at scene, act four, scene five in my edition. Now I discovered this morning there is actually act four scene three in some people's editions. Okay? Erm, so act fi act four, scene five. And the stage direction at the beginning of this, enter Doll in her bitter talking with Sir Epicure Manhom. Has everybody got that scene? Enter Doll in bitter talking with Sir Epicure Manhom. Okay. Can you divide yourself up into groups of four first of all please? I'll do it for you if you, you want? And leave a bit of space. Right. For those who aren't totally sort of in control of the plot and I probably should include myself as one of them, what's happening in this scene I want you to act out. What's happening in this scene? Doll is a prostitute, okay? First things first. Who is working with Sottle who's planning to be the alchemist, okay? So he's probably fiddled a lot of things to get money from people. The alchemist is getting money, I'm sorry, for people who know this inside out, but I'll just explain it. Erm the alchemist is conning people promising them that he'll turn base metals into gold. One of the people he's conning is Sir Epicure Manhom who wants a life of ease and luxury and has been giving the alchemist loads of money in order to tu to, to perfect this and funny enough the alchemist hasn't managed, hasn't managed to do this, to get the person's money. Okay. So that's who Epicure Manhom is. One day, when he is, somewhere back in act two, one day he is visiting the alchemist he catches sight of this woman, Doll, quite obviously a prostitute, probably an a an absolutely erm catches sight of her and says, I must quickly think up some reason why this woman is, is in the house cos Sir Epicure Manhom thinks the alchemist is a pure, homely er priest-like creature yet in fact, he's running a whorehouse. Okay? So,has it's worse than Neighbours . Erm, think erm so he's sort of bluffing, okay? I'll just find a scene where he does this. Er er in act two, scene three okay? Er erm quite a long way, there's that, that line erm two twenty. Okay? Face had just realized that Sir Epicure Manhom has erm seen Doll, which he shouldn't have done, and Manhom calls Face out and says stay Lungs. That's what Face is called at the moment. I dare not Sir. Say man what is she ? Now Face is bluffing here. A Lord's sister sir. , pray thee stay . And he sort of bluffs a bit more. She's mad sir . Still trying to explain why a Lord's sister is staying with the alchemist, okay? She's mad sir. Send hither, he'll be mad too. I warrant thee, why send hither? Sir, to be cured . You know, he's, he's thinking on his feet. He's trying to find reasons for this, this woman to be in the house. Meanwhile Sottle off stage is more, is calling why rascal? And Face low you hear sir ? He's going out to spend some . Okay. Manhom believes that, believes what basically? They look, er round that line, two three five two three six and Face is saying you're very right sir. She is a very rare scholar describing Doll Collan here, a whore who is seen wandering around the stage most of the time,she is the most rare scholar and has gone mad with studying Brampton's works. And here but name a word such in a Hebrew she falls in her fit and will discourse her learned genealogies as you would run mad too to to hear her sir . Now, so, Face is trying to sort of put off Sir Epicure Manhom by saying, you know, this a mad woman who's done too much learning nice little attack on women here by Johnson, who, who is one of the biggest misogynists in the world, erm a woman who's gone crazy with learning and who knows nothing because er she's just a prostitute and therefore she's thick. Okay? That's the joke. But th again, the funny thing is, even funnier, is that Manhom lusts after her, gets distracted from this idea of getting all this money and sa saying,how am I going to have conference with her, Lungs ? Erm and Face said,Oh! For a mad woman acceptance of her . Okay? So, Face promises to get an introduction to this woman who Manhom fancies and erm and Manhom, okay. That is the background. Next time we see them they, they have met and and Face sends them off to have a private conference. Okay? So you now have act four, scene five. Enter Doll and th they're talking. Will you please try and act it out like we did the Twelfth Night the bit with Mrs , and see whether you can revive your idea of why Johnson, what is the nature of, of Johnson's comic art. Okay. But hear guffaws within minutes. Right. Do you want me to divide you up? Are you,do you want class . You ne need four in a group. There's gonna be one over so somebody be the walking around peasant. I don't mind right now. Just move my mike. I think one of you lot's gonna have to go over and join these three over here. Yeah. Yeah. Go on. You brave soul Chris. Oh, do it now? Oh! Right. Well I haven't actually done it so I don't know what's going on. I've only read up to the bit where he's standing near the hooker. Right. So what's the job? So how much have it, have we got to read? The whole of the thing? It isn't that long. It's about act two, scene three really. I've put in act four, scene five. . Oh yeah. The bit where Doll and Manhom comes in. The bit after Alexandra . Okay I'll be Doll. Yes. Okay. I'll possibly . Ah. Mr Manhom. I'll be Doll. Alright, I'll be Manhom as well. But after Alexandra Sorry? can we do are we doing act four, scene five? Er that'll be act five. You're the clever one. I only see it as that I don't understand her bit, I think she's just out to take the piss. I do I'm, you know, I'm learning enough,Ancient Greek. Sorry. Or whatever it is. It must be some . Erm don't know, sorry. And er, I don't know, I think it's all about skivers isn't it? Cos as soon as they go it's all gone a bit When I saw it I didn't think it was that funny. I didn't think, you know Yo ho ho ho! When did you see it? I saw it about a year and a half ago. And I, when I read it, I hadn't looked at this , but I never thought it was really, I didn't sit there going Yeah. you know, it was Yeah. all like, ooh! Who's at the door? No it's the wrong person. Oh my God! Oh. All that sort of thing. You know, it's like, real sort of like you know, a farce. It's weird. Yeah. It's just like the people really. People, yeah I know. Basically. , you know Yeah. less of that. Oh dear . How's it going you lot? Hello. Oh hello. Have you worked out what's going on ? No. Okay. How far have you got? We've read the whole scene, but You've read the whole scene. Right. can't remember much. Erm what what, what stage of deciphering are you at ? Have you got to ? . Okay. Erm have you got Tricky too. what, what Sottle is doing when he comes in on the scene? No. Isn't he trying to make him feel guilty Manhom and this woman? Yes. But he's er Yeah. His lust for a whore. Yeah. Yeah. And that's why, and then erm he's trying to put, they try and blame Manhom that er when the er furnace thing stops he, that's all his fault is what Yeah. we thought. Yeah. So, I can understand what's going on, but it's like when I saw it, I saw the R S C production, Yeah. and like, and they were going, oh it's th the funniest play ever written! Yeah. And all this lot. And I went to see it and, you know, it was very slick they said, oh Yeah. who's at the door? No it's someone else. Oh quick, put a Yeah. on. Yeah. But I, I never really thought it was rip-roaringly funny. Perhaps if you don't really like farce as a as a kind of comedy then I suppose, yeah I'm not really in on them. Yeah. Cos even when I, I've been to see like, you know ones I just sit there and tend to go, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But you've gotta either be really in them or sort of out Sort of back seat? Yeah. Yeah. Very different kind of humour where no, I, I, unfortunately I agree with you. Yeah. But I, I'm hating , but I mean yeah I could see its cleverness. And Yeah. real physical cleverness. Yeah. The staging was just brilliant! Yeah, it's really visual. It's It's like when they did the erm you know when she comes on as a fairy Mm. kingpin fairy, she sat on someone's head and she had this massive gown all over her, and that was really visual. Erm Yeah. he we wanted to her get off he just ran up to this erm, ladder and she just grabbed onto him, he just pulled it away. Is that ? Yeah. It's really hard, yeah. You cannot visualize something taking place. It's really wordy isn't it? It's really sort of. And also, I mean, so many of the, the jokes just are very quick jokes. Yeah. They're based on maybe one word in a sentence but if you miss that, you've missed it. And that doesn't really matter in the theatre because you carry on Yeah. along by the visual gags, so neither of them when Yeah. you're reading it, you feel you've got to you've got to follow the follow the script. And the other thing about visual things, let's, let's say there is a reference to somebody having piles, but they make it a visual gag Yeah. Yeah. whereas on the page it is you know Yeah. schoolboy humour. Yeah. You know? Yeah. Erm I mean, nevertheless, obviously it's just somebody on the scene is a bit and that free way of talking about pain. And wrote it like that and published it like that. Something that Shakespeare never did. He didn't take anything and take it to the publishers, there you go. And he was a very conscientious playwright. . So, you know, to part like him, you've gotta resent him. Yeah. Yeah. That's th the lying stake. Anyway Well the second bit on, don't you think you reach a point where it keeps going, the actual crap, and you go, well why are they doing it then? Yeah. It's really shit, yes, but let's just Yeah. carry on and see this. Can you get it on video this one? No, I don't think you can. Tt! It took ages for me to be able to get a Well, I tried to get a video cos I wa I wanted to use this section to actually watch it. Mm mm. And sort of stop it Yeah. Yes! every few minutes. I know. And I, I couldn't get one. Tt! Oh. So, it was, it was, I,a as soon as I knew I'd be teaching this I thought the only way Yeah. to get them this across is, is to actually see it. Is there a video of it? I don't, oh Apparently not, but erm Yeah. there may be, I just I went into one video shop and I asked the le erm, some people here. Have you tried the library? No. No. Library in here? Twickenham. Or in Twickenham? Twickenham. It's really good. Is it? Oh! Yeah, so join up. Thanks John. Commission . Plug, plug there. Yeah. No it's really good, you can have them for like two days and it's only a pound, it's really good. Oh! You get everything too. Well I'll look into that one. I think i this could be fairly crucial that you actually see it. Erm if I could have your attention for a minute. What, any other things that you'd got, but I talked to each group individually, erm but if you want to share any of your thoughts with everybody else I'm standing in the way. Any illustrations for the scene we've just been doing and the things we've already been talking about, or any new ideas. Johnson's way of doing comedy. No,, you got anything extra to say? Er er only we the bit about how they both The way she to at the same time. Yeah. Right. Okay, so I mean they sa they all do say they'll be talking at the same time, but as I say,th that bit goes there. And, oh I'm talking about this bit now in a minute not wrong. The thing to bear in mind about Johnson is that he's a very, very, self-conscious professional kind of writer. He knocked down so many other He was fat. ones though . He was probably fat as well. Yeah. He was, but in fact, he drunk far too much. Sorry. It's alright. Erm That explains it then doesn't it? Oh dear. It certainly Well he, would be he, he that fat people only in smoke. in, in, in his plays he he's not very nice about women because he was sexually frustrated. Oh no he wasn't. He wasn't. No, no, I beg your pardon, Are you talking about you John ? No. I, I feel that probably professional status thing and this is not a therapy session. Erm sort of erm no,Johns Johnson a, er, an interesting sexual life erm and he's not Very. frustrated. Yeah? No. I think, I think he Whose and enjoy it . Over there. Someone . So, no, no, afraid not. Erm and er, but he also had a major drinking problem. He was also the son of a builder which wasn't a particularly great thing to be in, be in England which is, you know considerably more snobby than, you know and, what he did, set out to be, somebody who earned his living by writing, and that was a new idea. You didn't earn anything by writing. If you were Shakespeare Sorry. you got a protection from an aristocratic person who, who looked after you, and he wrote not by his . Johnson said no, I'm gonna write these plays, I'm gonna earn money for them, and then I'm gonna publish them, I'll earn money from the publication. So he did a whole edition, a folio volume about that big, and that's the kind of volume that the bible be published in, it shows sort of what weight was attached to this erm and he published his plays. Now, plays in that stage were the things that were performed two or three times then forgotten, here is Johnson saying, no, I'm gonna write down all my plays, I'm gonna publish them, you're gonna read them you're gonna read them as if they were learned things. He'd got this great idea of a type of an author. Now, at this you may not have sympathy for that but it's significant in circles I've seen that you just don't that Johnson has bothered to write out exactly how that play should be acted out, he's trying to stay in control of his plays. Shakespeare, we don't know what Shakespeare wanted to do on stage, he doesn't give you any idea at all. Johnson wants us to know exactly how his plays should be staged, he's a he's an actor's playwright. He's somebody cares about how actors can form actually on a stage, what's possible. He, he explores every single dramatic possibility. Okay. Let's get on with it. Erm this group also mentioned, and other people did as well just that acting plays is dramatic irony. I mean there is that biography as soon as she gets disguised. But it's just so, it's just the driving force really in this whole play that the audience knows what's going on. And then other characters, erm, particular, other characters don't. Any other things? Did your group come up with anything new Bob? No? You lot? Come up with anything new? No? You can't do any better than this? No. Well there's a couple of things I will, I'll, I'll add then before we're shutting up about this. One is I don't know whether any, any of you noticed but come to that part when I reached this book, and the whole load of jokes on this page are topical they'll be appreciated by the audience at the time. There are political jokes there are jokes about other plays, there are jokes about bits of London it's topical. Okay? That's another reason that Johnson is much harder to understand than Shakespeare. It's great for people like me who do research into politics and literature because you know, Johnson's like a key to ev whatever he's thinking at the time. Johnson's making a gag about it, you know, everybody wants to learn about it, but for us it's much more difficult in, in the twentieth century. Erm the other one, that I wanted to bring up in this, the reason I suppose, the second one to remember, is the idea of satire. And, for the sake of brevity I'm gonna give you some definitions . Oh. Do people mind me just telling you things? No? Okay. Say so, I mean you don't have to do this. Er, when oh well, okay. Everybody got an idea of all this is going? Ooh dear! Okay. Johnson, just debating, we're getting on to the whole idea of Johnson's world and the link though it worked out the same I'd say. Okay. The link is satire. Okay. Now this is a simplified construction, somewhat. Two basic definitions. One the oldest which comes from pre-Roman times, okay? Means, basically, thespian merrymaking. With any sort of thespian celebration and this is pre-Roman okay? Perhaps involving you know, the leaders of the village becoming servants and servants becoming leaders, or women dressing up as men or you know happy. All these things go on as a for the evenings. Erm the other one is Roman, which is one that some of you, I hope, will be a bit familiar with and a highly cultivated kind of literary tact. What brings both of these together basically, and this, if you want, is your working definition is is thought of attack through mockery. Okay? So it's like you're attacking something through mockery. It can be, sort of, for festive purposes, you're just poking fun at the priest or something erm then you'd probably spring over there, you know what I mean. Erm but in Roman style it's a highly cultivated kind of literary attack. Okay. Both these kinds are inter-related so, that's really a sort of quite an artificial separation. And, the tricky thing about satire there's a lot more to be said about definitions but, particularly satire, is it's very difficult to distinguish satire from other types of comedy. Like with irony, remember the first week?, which I'll never forget it, tried to erm make me explain the difference between irony and sarcasm. And I was still worrying about it. Waking up at night I can't actually differentiate between the two very easily. Erm I bore people, I might be at a dinner, I say look, what about irony and sarcasm? Anyway, after I've This is true. This has become very sick. Erm his idea of satire actually is erm, if I hear satire, it's another one of those slippery things, you know where does begin? And where does comedy end? Where does irony come into it? You know, things like this, so take care with these things, they get very difficult to distinguish other kinds of comedy. Okay. Turning to Johnson which is what we're here for there are two erm versions, if you like, of the satire, particularly as Roman kind of satire which are relevant, okay? One is very pure satire, and he comes up with this idea as well. Erm attacking the social forms and customs of the time. I mean most satire does that but it's what Johnson's satire does particularly well. Okay? There's another category of satire which, if you like Johnson's made his own. If you're gonna ru talk about the comedy of humours you ma more than likely gonna be talking about Johnson. Okay? And this is where humours has nothing to do with humorousness. Get that in your head. Comedy of humours basically means personality traits carried to excess. Manias. Okay. Sorry to digress. A comedy of aspects of which are to be taken to extremes. Okay? So a modern humour on the stage might be a really sort of over-the-top virilous feminist. Okay? That'll be our modern style of erm humour. Right. That's it. Now the next, I want you to look at the verse prologue of the play. It comes just before act one, scene one. The verse prologue. Okay? In particular lines eleven to the end. Okay? So just skim through the first ten lines then eleven to the end really concentrate on. I wa I want you to tell me if what is Johnson saying that his particular comedy of humours this play is doing? What, what's its purpose? What is the purpose of Johnsonian comedy? Comedy to Johnson. Okay. Go for the last couple of lines whate whatever stage you're at. Okay. Who wants to tell me what Johnson is saying about the, of Johnsonian comedy? Anything other than a guess. Er religion , Johnson. I don't think religious belief, as such. I think his hypocritical extremism is in fact. I'm not asking you to do these now, but they're useful for your erm, this was a handout given to people last year that I was got given. And if you're wanting to spend more time on Johnson at any stage, this is sort of there's something that I sort of don't trust producing some er, you know a play to a load of boxes but erm, la la la, and sheets as well. Sorry. You can finish looking later on. And you want four there. We can share ours. Yeah. We haven't got a copy. Erm if you like, you filled in all those boxes in your spare time you come up with a whole list of these follies of human beings. But there's always a but if there's really a moral lesson it's all just like an observation. There are four if you're greedy and lustful, hypocritical stupid whatever, you're going to be easily conned. But does Johnson so he's attacking these people for doing that but does he is there any sort of Not really. border of ora morality about that? Well maybe that's it then. He's punishing them. For those of you who don't realize about five minutes, but yeah, basically nobody's punished at all. And whilst in a Shakespeare play well, let me just give the, give the ex erm example that if this was a Shakespeare play for example, and you, you had all these characters in disguise conning other people and whatever, by the end of the play everybody would be out of their disguises and marrying each other and all the bad people would have been consigned, you know, to stage off erm, maybe not to be totally finished off, but, you know,th they're off the stage and you just end up with this, sort of, festive marriage business. In Johnson, none of that happened. And in fact, a nice bit of reading the play was that I bet, and Johnson's gonna sort it out, he's gonna sort it out, he's gonna, he's gonna you know, expose Sottle, and Face, and Doll as wicked and to reassert all the, you know, nice values, like self-knowledge, er, and romantic and forgiveness and all these things. And he's got two opportunities to do that. In Surly, d'ya remember Surly? The one he hoists Sottle and that lot time dressed up as Spanish captain and cons . But in the end Surly's moved, sort of shoved off stage. He doesn't get anywhere. And the other one is when Ludwitt comes back th the master of the house. You think yeah, yeah! Ludwitt's gonna clear all these people out, punish them. blood. But he doesn't. But look at the scene in which Ludwitt comes back. Act five, scene five. Er erm sorry, not act five, scene five erm act five, scene three. The end of act five. Scene three. From line seventy five from about seventy three whatever. Ludwitt overhears Face talking to Sottle who's still in the house. Okay? Erm who wants to, who wants to do Ludwitt? Er Katherine. Right Katherine. Erm I'd rather not. You'd rather not. Okay. Erm John. Ludwitt. Okay. And Face er, next on the list is Next one comes to me . Andrea. Yeah, I'll do Face. Okay. So that's Face and Ludwitt. Okay. From, oh is it so? Oh right. Oh is it so? Then you converse with spirits. Come sir! No more may your, may your tricks degenerate the truth the shortest way. Dismiss this rabble sir! What shall I do? I'm catched . Good neighbours, I thank you all, you made a part. Come sir, you know that I am an indulging master and therefore conceal nothing. What's your medicine? To draw so many, several sorts of wild fowl. Sir! You won't want to effect mirth and wit, for here's no place to talk on th in the street. Give me the leave to make the best of my fortune and only pardon me the abuse of your house. It's all I beg. I'll have you to a widow in recompense that you should give me thanks for and make you seven years younger, and a rich one. Tis but your putting on a Spanish clock. I have her within. You need not fear the house. I was not visited. But for me you came It was not visited . Ha? Sorry, it was not visited. But for me you came sooner than you expected. It is true sir. Pray you forgive me ? Well, let's see your widow . Okay. What, what did Ludwitt ? I mean, from the first line it's says, what shall I do, I'm catched ? Think he's been caught. And what happened? Well he back up again. Yeah. You don't know? What's the tricky bit? Face has been caught in the act using his master's house a house as a brothel and er a place for you know, false alchemy. Ludwitt comes back, all the neighbours are clustering around trying to get in, Ludwitt, first of all he sends away the neighbours he asks Face to tell him everything and what does Face offer him? The widow. A widow. And what does Ludwitt do? Yeah, yeah I'll pay. He accepts it. Yeah, that's right I'll pay this time . Yeah. And, and , you know no difficulty. The point that I'm trying to make is that Johnson made it plain, yes, that greed makes you gullible, lust makes you gullible, er er, you will be conned, but nobody gets punished. I mean what is the point of saying he's going to better us yet all he's doing is pointing out these follies. He's not saying, you know, you will suffer for them except by humiliation. Well that lady gets punished but then he's not like taking this so sort of view that there's any sort of order in the world. He's sort of you, and people do get their broken up, and you say, oh well Face gets away with it, but he's the only one, everyone else sort of gets on their face. But, the very fact So, so, so that Face survives basically Yes. arch as if he has a Right, Face Face is, is a brilliant , and, and like So that he's getting better his reward? He's not getting his reward but it be too simplistic to say oh well, if you're gonna be bad you're gonna get , but this doesn't happen like that. No. What he probably is saying is that you more than likely get unless you actually . The majority of people get things done through the greed and the lust and therefore, also religion. So, are you saying that Johnson, despite the fact that he was dealing with human types, human beings, was actually more realistic in terms of how the world as a whole works in that, bad people do get away with things if they're good enough ? I think, yeah I think, that, that he's structured and like the, like plays like King Lear, where there's this sort of unspoken erm good guy at the top that sees that anything is punished that's bad, and people get their just desserts. Yeah. Well hopefully we're gonna do about King Lear. But, yeah, I take your analogy that there are plays in which time, or the gods, or God sort things out. Yeah. And, and, yeah. Okay. And people get exposed and all the rest of it. Right. Okay, so it's often the anarchist that's erm as far as we got. Erm crass value judgment time please. Who likes Johnson, and who likes Shakespeare? First of all, anybody like Johnson better than Shakespeare? I do. You do. Why? Just cos erm, I don't really like Shakespeare. It's a bit more, it's more humorous to me. I, it just appeals more. I'm not really a Shakespeare fan. But you can't really sort of put your finger on any It's just the setting of it as well, at the back. You know, it's set in London. It just appeals to me more. I think Shakespeare appeals to me more because I can understand it. Right. Because I can't understand this. I just get frustrated with it. Right. And perhaps if I can understand it more, then Yeah. I'll be able to appreciate it. It makes you feel that you, you, being able to see this play Yeah. I'd erm then you, you, you'd be able Yeah. get a much better, better chance. I mean which, yeah, cos, cos we need it underlined. again, that, that has a visual but erm, his Shakespeare. Why do you think we all Sh study Shakespeare? Why is it a kind of a national icon? Because we don't have to see him. People like you and me, I earn my living by reading Shakespeare but it's not like you're supposed to do anyway, you know. But, the fact is you can read over it, you can study it in a very literary way, you just can't do the same thing with Johnson. It's very much, you know erm stage, a stage . Well okay, those of you who liked the Shakespeare better, for whatever reasons, even if it's just because you didn't get to grips with Johnson, which of the plays, first of all, erm did you find most interesting? Dunno. Wi who's read, read Twelfth Night and found that one most interesting? I thought, I liked Twelfth Night cos it's funny. So, as a comedy, Twelfth Yeah. Night. Better. But most of you said that Twelfth Night wasn't the funniest play of these three scintillating comedies chosen . Ha! Definitely have to demonstrate. Erm but you liked Twelfth Night? I've seen Twelfth Night and Yeah. And that, yeah. Again, we're back to this idea that, you know, it's ridiculous stuck in a drama course and not and, and looking at them just as, as text. Did anybody like the Winter's Tale? I'm more interested, I'm more interested in why is that? I thought it was the tragic comedy like life really. Like Yeah. not just either one or the other, or . It was all a mixture. I dunno. Yeah. What have you thought? Er er it was more sort of solid er er where er Twelfth Night seemed to jump. Solid? Well, I'm not very good with words. Erm, it was more erm well Twelfth Night you had all these different characters and they're coming in and out and they Mm. were jumping all over the place and the action moved Yeah. so quickly Right. but wi with the Winter's Tale, I managed to grasp what was going on. Right. It was a It was developed more it was more compact, you know at the ending. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Yeah, I think that's true, I think it's a very well structured It's like play. it's like isn't it? Sort of, all to do Yeah. with the children and Yeah. Yeah. He's, he's got a . Erm well I feel we haven't really done justice to Johnson. Well maybe I should have given him two weeks instead of one, but, anyway. Erm Can I have just have about John Donne and what's gonna happen over the next few weeks? Erm, we've finished a bit earlier today. Could have done. Erm okay. We've technically got three weeks of Donne, mostly by reading ne er, the week after next. Ya? What I said to the other group, partly because they had a, an hour before the lecture is that I'll use next week with them, as, as an introduction to the poetry of this period. Now, I can either do that with you, very sort of general introduction trying to place Donne in comparison with other poets an and just really getting the basics of Donne or, since you'll have had, just had a lecture we could go on and do some more sort of specific complex things. Any, any strong opinions either way? Would you like an introduction? So what's sor what's happening in the lecture? Is it like er introduction or Erm, the lecture is on erm tell you Mhm. Question of styles. question of styles. I'm not actually sure, who's giving it? Fay . Well yeah, she's probably gonna be, now, I, no it's either that she's going to be well certainly, an introduction to the kind of methods that Donne Donne uses which I, I'm supposed to follow up on. Is it, it tells you though what, what interests is erm I, I love the virtue of this period so, yeah, it's a good excuse for me to sort of Mhm. erm share . Do we like, do this now? Sort of every, sort of Right. impression, or is, like if you That is in your book read something actually. I it's in the Craig and you can read something edition. you can read something like that? Yeah. Rather than doing it in erm Then you that, but it'll be useful right now when you . to actually talk about it. Right. Okay. That I'll well that, yes I'll say can you use this week to make sure you understand when Donne was alive. And it's not a stupid . But, exactly when he was alive basically what happened in his career. I don't normally sort of insist on people looking at the, the biographical background for the, but it's crucial with Donne for you to pick up on a lot of the meanings of, of it. So, make sure you know what about his life and his times. If you can, erm, I don't know how many of you have a sort of religious background anyway, in terms of you know, things like Sunday school and whatever, but if you can just get yourself familiar with the basic points of difference between Protestant and Catholic faith. That might help you as well. Erm can't think of anything else er er that I can suggest just to erm What have we gotta do? Hmm? Right. Basically I'm gonna do a collection of love poetry with you a selection of religious poetry focusing on the holy sonnets in the religious poetry. We'll do those two areas quite thoroughly in seven hours. The thing you probably won't have much time to do in seven hours is erm his sermons, which really do tie in with the religious poetry. Give you the, the the prose side of the poetry, but raise the, the . And I'm gonna try and squeeze in some work on his satires as well. Erm which are called elegies, just to confuse you. Erm so those are the three or four areas we'll be doing, is reli i religious poetry, love poetry, and the satires, which are actually called elegies. Okay? Erm, would you like me to, to actually say erm, the particular poems? I mean, I was gonna let you have them next week, but if you'd like some to sit down and look at erm I'll find my things if I can. Oh oh! Oh well I don't care. Alright, I don't think she did them. Er erm Okay. Right. Could you look at The Anniversary this is all in the Craig edition, okay? The Good Morrow. Love's Alchemy. The Dream. I know, just for you . The Relic. The Sun Rising. The last one, Women's Constancy. These are all love poems, okay? Right. I have here, if, if anybody wants, erm, a work sheet that erm, I was gonna give out and then I I thought, probably wouldn't get done. So, but if you'd like it on The Alchemist, and you feel you really haven't got through to The Alchemist, it's here, okay? Just take one off there. I said there's no need to lock it Mike, it's alright, you know. I just come back er ladies and gentlemen to apologize for this morning's cock up, I mean it was totally inexcusable of me. Er I'll explain why it happened an and then perhaps you'll hopefully find that you can forgive me, and er then I'll go on and say one or two of the things that I was gonna say this morning but er didn't. I made the mistake this morning of trying to squeeze in er before I came here to just cl try and clear another task. Er that was silly er I didn't allow myself sufficient time to prepare for this opening and ob obviously to compose myself. The result of that was that by the time I'd rushed across the road, dashed up the stair well found the place, dashed up the stairs, I was out of breath and er hadn't composed myself and I just res resembled a quivering blob that er that left you about er twenty past nine. I'd unnecessarily put myself in a stressful situation. It's rather interesting that the only two management er training courses I did last year, were er stress management and time management and I seem to cocked them both up Er anyway as I say er I realized when I'd started talking er that I was digging a bigger and bigger hole for myself so I er I climbed out of it and and made an exit. And passed me the shovel. Er i it was insulting to you and I apologize for that. Both for not being prepared, not giving the opening of this course the importance that it did deserve, and obviously for the embarrassment that er you must have felt having to sit there while I made a total fool of myself. Interesting as well that on the subject here to discuss quality, and I didn't bother to, to put a quality presentation together. A a again I am very very sorry. If I'm g go over things that Dennis covered or that have already been covered this morning, I, I will be brief a and I just wanted to say these are some of my personal views on the quality initiatives. Er I know Hugh er a and many of the management team erm share most of them erm a i if not all of them. Our quality systems are about defining what we as a group are gonna do for our clients, our customers. Er without the customers there's no point in us being here at all. And we're gonna define when we're gonna come up with the goods as well. What are we gonna do? When are we gonna do it by? A are the two things that the client's interested in. Th the cost obviously i is a third point. But, but once we've discus defined who's gonna do what within the quality systems that, then we've got something to, to make a start from. And the quality systems will help us to monitor and identify where things are going wrong and once we know what is going wrong, we've got an opportunity to put it right. And that then gives us this spiral of improvement which is bound to impact on everything that we do. The management team are fully committed to the group's quality initiative. We consider that investment in quality is as important as improving the working environment, which we've obviously been er doing slowly over the last three years. And investing in CAD and MOS equipment, which again,we we've b successfully been doing over the last two or three years. So i i it sits side by side with the erm items that we'd decided are important for us to achieve our visions. The good housekeeping exercise which we've just circulated the documents on, which we'll be consulting on in two weeks time tt er it mainly is about changing the organization to allow us to delegate authority down to an appropriate level. And to ensure that we act as a group and not just a collection of separate offices. Er this of course will then improve the quality of the service which our customers receive. You'll have been briefed, I'm sure, about the two day management get-together that we're gonna have at Scarborough next week. All the function heads, most of the section engineers, all the team quantity surveyors and a good number of er senior project engineer, M S three type levels are gonna be there. I, I don't know how we're gonna get Bob's fishing rod on the train I'm a little bit worried about it but erm Get Bob on the . getting him off the dodgems perhaps will be a bigger problem. Er the reason for the get-together is for us to look closely at the aspirations of the group within the immediate future, and taking us forward three to five years. Three to five years seems quite a long way forward in the current uncertain climate. But we've called the er the seminar, Shaping the Future. And I think you can rest assured that the quality systems will be the foundations onto which we will build any changes which are identified as being necessary, as part of next week's get-together. Without quality systems in place, we won't be able to tender in the future for design work which a lot of our clients will be offering. It was only because we had the quality systems in place, okay we didn't have accreditation er at the time, but the quality systems were in place, that we were invited to tender for the Crossrail project for Rickmansworth station. So again, everything comes back to quality and the C E D G being er essential a a and really er a building block for our future survival. Okay . Would it be alright if I stayed for the rest of the afternoon? I think actually Trev that was very very timely, cos that really sort of encapsulated what we said this morning, so thank you very much for coming back. Er You might have to find your own chair actually. Oh right. I can stand at the back . Right erm wh what we propose doing now i is just to, I've written up er your, inverted commas, answers o on the board. Erm we'll just er look at th those have a good bit of a laugh and a bit of a chuckle. Erm the idea then is to, to swap your project quality plans around the groups and then for each, the leader of each group to critique those plans, just briefly, a few minutes er and present that to the erm t to the group. And hopefully that will stimulate some discussion. Right. So tho those are the estimates of cost. Er they range from, sorry can you see that? They range from eight thousand two hundred and fifty pounds through to eighteen thousand one hundred and fifty. Erm I shall pass no comment on those, but I do know whose was the lowest bid. And we said it would be. Erm Cheapskate. It's only because your boss is here, isn't it Bill? Erm issue of drawings to the er the client er the client wished to know, wished to know this. Er three of you told him when he was going to get it. Erm it's perhaps en encompassed in that which is the total completion er for the fourth group. And you also told the client er two of you told him when he was going to get the estimates. Erm Er again can you just alter the third one to the thirty first of August ninety three? Sorry. Which one? That one. That one you had your pen on. That's three is it? Sorry. Beg your pardon. I was doing it under the covers you see? Erm so er I mean it could be argued that those figures go in there. I'm a a and they're not too bothered about that. Erm group number one offered to advise the client when he 'd when they'd finished the survey. Not too sure you would actually do that without erm,I , I've got no real comment on that i quite so simply Okay Dennis? Yeah. What I'd like is ? Not yet. Because we're going to wait till you've s till er you're present . We're going to wait till er we've heard your critique on each other 's until we make our minds up. We'd like groups one and two to swap for comment please, and gr and groups three and four to swap for comment. Now could you get together and spend five or six minutes as a group, having a look at the other group's presentation and could you please make a note of the following. The good points, the points you disagree with completely, but most importantly of, of all, would you have been able to have worked from that particular quality plan as presented to you? In other words, was the quality plan sufficiently well completed for you to be able to utilize it? In earnest? So if you could just spend five or six minutes doing that and could we come back at twenty five past two please. Okay? for me?young lady. from there. from the end. You're as bad as . Yeah. We're running. Testing testing. early on. Right. Have w have we got one then? What's that? Right. Right. Do you wanna? Is it group four's erm plan? No it's not group four cos they'll all escape. Group four. Yeah. Er so Yeah. Let's, can you see that Roger ? So they've got the project number Toytown. no problem there. Er we I can't remember if we be an R O R O W one? Yeah. R O W's a bit odd. That one's misleading Mhm. for a kick off. Do you want to make a note of that? Mm. And extension varies by designs. Erm Not R O W. Alistair erm he's, he's made himself er he has made himself coordinator. And section engineer. And section engineer. I didn't sign it as coordinator. Mm. Project engineer is Brian . Right. No problem there really. that one. Have they got all the sections filled in? Didn't notice. Survey? It would be sent back if it wasn't filled in wouldn't it? Survey is all we said wasn't it? Mm. Yeah. We haven't got some of our headings . No. Er project manager. Yeah the same trouble as er We just put today's date on which is fair Yeah. enough isn't it? Yeah. IBIS I didn't notice. Did you? They've made that up I think. Mhm. Mm. O Eight Nine Eight isn't it? IBIS numbers One O Two Double O. Mhm. Survey of design. Er th they should have done the estimate Thirty percent. got thirty estimates there. Now then ? Good man. That's against what, sorry? Er project remit. Project remit. Well they've written it in but they haven't ticked it. They haven't got any specification laid out. Alright. So Mm. affect that. Shouldn't they tick this box? N erm Oh I see what you mean. Yeah. fill ours out . Specification. Well we did because we said we'd have to specify what to . They'll produce design drawings and thirty percent estimates er one and a half miles of train line. One down , one mile on the up, double junction below twenty mile an hour speed limit. Agreed that. up. diverting and land purchase negotiations . Yeah. W we did exactly er We, we, we just sort of noted it on there Mm. and there. Er now then They haven't got er meeting, anything about wh er A weekly report. No repo no mention of a report No. reporting Yeah. at a at any intervals. No. Ah. Right. Let's have a little look here. All they've done here is done liaison with the S and T. I would have thought that was really irrelevant. Since we know what the speed is. Mm. Mm. Yeah. Er that is, is valid. But erm no reference to locating services Mm. which will want to know. N no er reference to access and land ownership which we need to know for the survey. W we w we would need to know and be involved in locating services. Our works bridges responsibility statement not completed. Yeah. That's . Works bridges responsibility statement not completed. Yeah. Ownership we would want to er erm mm. No milestone dates quoted. No milestone. And er project meetings not allowed for. No allowance project meetings. Mhm. And theirs was nearly twice the price of ours. They just added their Er I think they, they were a bit more my, my gut feeling on this what it would cost somewhere around about twenty five grand Mm. er to honest. That er it in actual fact and I'm gonna hold you lads to all this. Erm Yeah. Erm No cross-sections. No cross-sections. Right. Erm This is on the project quality plan now is it? Only one longitudinal section drawing, it would b it would be a big one. Yeah. But we need ? Yeah. That'll be, we, we sort of weighed up from the length of what we had to show Mm. and we, we reckoned er alright. they've shown their certificate of er compliance. Won't argue about that, we didn't. Okay. Not much really There's a lot of technical work supervision in there. My God. Mm. Maybe they're allowing thousand six hundred hours? It seems that, that seems a lot. Do you agree? Yeah. Hell of a lot. Yeah. Query. Is that just for supervision? Not the actual technical work itself? That's just supervision or does that mean the technical work and supervision? Well I think we should query this. This is on appendix D two one. Er technical supervision, query two thousand six hundred hours. Which is nearly a year. Mm. Two thousand six hundred two thousand six hundred hours? Well it's over a year a on er working days. That's at ten hours a day. How many hours did we put down for working on ? Two thousand six hundred at twenty pound an hour? How long did we say for the survey? A week each? That's . Yeah. Oh no, two weeks wasn't it? Yeah. It's cos it's er The thing is should have been nearly seventy five hundred. We've got five hundred down for That's right. One fifty and two sixty two seven five O. right surely. But if that's hours Seems a seems a lot. That must be DOPACS units. Well Ah. possibly. But a again erm Because An hour far too much. if you were, if you add two thousand seven hundred and fifty hours at twenty pound an hour you'd be well over eighteen thousand. Yeah. So th th are the are these DOPACS units then? Yeah. I think they must be. Mm. Oh right. Mm. Yeah. That means the survey comes out roughly at what we estimated . Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Er Okay then. Right. That's that explained. Well they, they've put the thirty estimates er thirty percent estimates in there. That we, we just showed them over here, apart from that th their format's the same. Yeah. These are DOPACS units. Mm. Mm. Can you see where the escalation is c in cost is? Ah. Right. They've got earthworks. Earthworks in. That's, that's for a start. And photographs. And photographs. Yeah. But they're not supposed to include it. Er if they'd kept it separate. Don't liaison between Yeah. It's Yeah. So if you take fifteen hundred off then that erm It was eighteen thousand I think it was more or less. Plus sixteen. Plus photo plus photographs and they've seventeen fifty really . We have. So er we've sort of er beaten it down at bit. points . Well there is there is a particular section for the photographs I think we've figured that one out actually. Oh have you? Er which is that? Yeah. They're on . They have lot of technical work supervision . Two seven fifty divided by sixty three. What's that? It's about three weeks isn't it? That's a hell of a lot more than we put in didn't we? Yeah. Didn't we put er ten percent Yeah. of the job in didn't we? Yeah. We put a couple of days in I think in total. Yeah. That's where it's bumped up Norman. It's er i erm tho those are DOPACS units, so if we e if we er divide by Well it's two hundred and something and a . Now what was it? It was three hundred and fif three and sixty five DOPACS units? About a week isn't it? Seventy five seventy threes? Three six five isn't it. Yeah. Three six five a week so Erm Erm Wh what's that? Six weeks roughly. Eight weeks. Eight weeks near enough isn't it? Yeah. Eight weeks. No. That's totally over the top isn't it really? Mm. But that er technical supervision seems very high. Which form's that on? That's on er Project plan D Five Eight. D D Five Eight. It's prog er Technical work supervision. And he's got eight weeks. Mm. They've got too many . I've put all the er the grades in the wrong way round. They haven't done any or work operation checks. I started with highest worked on to the lowest. Ah. Is that on . Is that on another sheet? They haven't allowed for any Fees are . Detailed design. That's the one. Th they've got that Right. there. It's a pity we've not got a copy of our own. Mm. So what have we got Adam? Right. These are the points that we disagree on. Erm on the main header document, not R O Double O. Form D One, the project remit, no thirty percent estimates . No mention of any reporting. Works and bridges responsibility statement not completed. As well for the . Also no project meeting . And the project quality plan there's no cross-section drawings. Are you nearly ready? Yes. Okay. Don't what the good points were we haven't said any yet. And on extra works supervision . No. We haven't. single good point about it. Erm Well basically Yeah. Yeah. It's realistic. The writing was good. Yeah. Oh did we have a look at that? Good point . It was okay. tape stops and starts) Okay. Might I remind you please that when you're speaking into the group could you try and speak up a little bit because we've still got the tapes going. And er this young lady, Clare's terribly interested in the way in which we're using our language today, so er I hope that doesn't inhibit you. Right. Group three. Could we please have your comments? Er group three. We're commenting on er er group four's erm er quality plan. Erm we don't see a great deal of difference that they've had the same problem as we've had, in that we ran out of time before we could put the er finished act together properly. Er so we've started off with a number of relatively nitpicking erm erm points. For instance the title we thought R O W was Toytown station, R O W was misleading cos b R O W stands for Renewal Of Way. Probably doesn't describe the project er correctly. Erm on the second sheet form D One the er erm thirty percent estimate box hadn't been ticked. Er there was a fairly comprehensive er specification. Erm in some ways more erm comprehensive than one that we provided. I i but missing out items that er that we'd shown. Erm also there was no er reference to er the er er frequency of reports at the bottom of the er bottom of the sheet. Er which er I suspect was due to the th the insufficient time to carry out the exercise. On the second sheet er of D One, the responsibility statement, er there were just a couple of boxes er ticked. Erm liaising with the operations manager route speed potential, since we know the route speed is twenty miles an hour, er I felt that probably wasn't really a vital item. On the other hand I would have ticked s erm location of services er and public and utility because th these are things that we need to know at the design stage. Likewise obviously for land and access, because we will need to know that for the survey work involved. Erm most of the other items o on the works and bridges would have been the responsibility of the project manager to er them. But those two in particular we felt that er we would do that as part of our er a an essential part of what we were trying to design. Er there's no, no milestones dates er er quoted but these of course have been given so they have been considered. Erm number of projects meetings er wasn't er wasn't completed, and the boxes at the bottom er but er planning permission was erm ticked as a constraint er I wondered what the basis was behind that, for ticking it? Right. So that was the er the access t plan. Right. Okay. Erm on the er process check list, erm a difference from ourselves which does the affect the price of group three, which we purposefully left out, they have quoted er a price for a soils investigation. Er we left that out because of Dennis' assurance that it was just our costs, but these are, this is certainly something that we would have to er add to our cost. And er also incidentally a cost for the P Q S, because the P Q S would do estimates for the earthworks th that are involved which is outside our normal line of duty. Er so that's an item included that we didn't have on ours. I wouldn't er b just at a brief gla glance I didn't er agree with the er drawing schedule. It's quite different from ours. We saw ourselves as having to do erm a considerable number of cross-sections for calculating, or enabling the P Q S to calculate earthworks quantities. We had no assurance of the ground between Road and Toytown as flat. So a w we saw cross-sections as being the big item here, whereas er Alistair's team er didn't er didn't see it as such. Erm on the er er project plan D Five P, erm without having our own to compare with, a bit difficult to do, again o the e the fifteen hundred for earthworks investigations included which we haven't included. There's also a very valid item for photos which we hadn't included. Two hundred and fifty pounds er which certainly would be er done. The o only thing that we felt w we could take issue on was on the project resource sheet, erm technical work supervision. There was erm a total of two thousand six hundred units allocated to Brian which we thought was er a bit steep. three and a half hours of work . Mm. three and half of his time . Erm but if you translate that into er er into days it's quite a substantial amount and er erm again in our plan we'd thought in terms of a complete MOS design er where the input would be probably more on the checking side, than actual on the, actually on the supervision. Cos you can see from our price that anticipating very a rapid er a very rapid completion. So really there's only that item w w we felt that particular one was a bit er a bit steep and er the rest was er a a difference in emphasis, I would suspect, coupled with shortage of time Was it, was it a workable plan as it stood ? Er yes. Good.. Yeah. A a subject to er th the I think my main objection to it would be that the lack of reference to cross-sections, which on you without knowledge of the ground could or could not be viable. . Well you got quite a lot out of being able to evaluate . as a project engineer or team member or one of the troops doing the job, if you were presented with that, you could have done what you'd been asked to do? As far as we can judge in five minutes, yes. Yes. That's . Gro group two, would you like to tell us about? there's a shortage of actual evaluating . Erm the quality project plan needs filling in erm certainly with I c couldn't with that. Erm and again the second sheet, form D One erm the fine details erm and the er the remit er gave a reasonably adequate to work to . Er the C E G responsibility statement form D One erm er erm bypassed that, by writing er a rider on that they assumed concept will be agreed for surveying er feasibility. Er and that the with er nothing more than to get on and do it . I think some of the erm er they've crossed all the P Way ones out and er appear not to have crossed any of the works, bridges, B E S out. Er they tried to write a rider to bypass it completely, but I don't know whether that is sound . I think maybe they should have perhaps covered certain . Erm the process check list erm again they've identified the people on each erm and within that they've actually nominated people to look at the land ownership which is the, on the ignored with their rider on the previous sheet. Er but again nominate people erm to do the different works. Erm they haven't quantified the number of drawings to be done. Erm again it's a question of time I'm sure they would have been probably reasonably er adequate. Er the project resources sheet erm again th th the erm it's identify erm the quantities do seem about right. Erm there's, they haven't added up one of the boxes, and I believe that in terms of erm its actual cost. Er and that query made on how they are going to actually evaluate the plan. Erm once they've they've gone off this sheet and it's been transferred incorrectly to the project plan and the price of the plan. Er but the plan itself the DOPACS units haven't been actually completed and therefore they could be running at a loss . Erm the actual form D three five erm bar chart was filled in with er milestone dates and nominates people. And again some of them have different values of units. Er within the erm procedural responsibility statement th there's no milestones mentioned er form D three five. So what, what you're saying But really o overall er the plan looks reasonably sound except for the which er reflect in the price . I could work to it. But what we also said tha that's quite encouraging, John, is that there is an ability to crosscheck the costing that you've achieved with the information previously entered onto these other forms. In which case er given a little bit more time to fill the thing in, Yeah. erm there i it's not just a matter of plucking a figure out of thin air, but you can see the justification for the full fee-bid, and you can er crosscheck the accuracy of the fee-bid as well. Yes.. Good. Right. Group er one please. What comments have you got ? Erm group one commenting on group two. Sheet one was er as we wha what was expected. No problems with that. We were a little unsure ourselves whether were actually doing scheme work or design. Er we always think we do a little scheme work within design. But whatever er it's difficult to on, on that. Erm form D One, the pink one, er there was no reporting timescales, weekly intervals er or whether they were going to report on completion. Erm and that is or could be the only approach to the client once the job starts, so we thought it was fairly important. Erm works, bridges, B E S subjects, as John rightly said, we missed out erm one or two of these and tended to ignore the things that were under works, bridges and B E S. Er and as John said, one or two of them were probably relevant and we didn't make er notes on those. Erm and, and and, and probably those points are erm of interest and some of them er will have to be taken into account. Er there was no constraints erm within the project or within the responsibility statement on saying that somebody else should be responsible for certain things that we felt were outside our, our remit. Erm obviously . The quality plan, erm a lot of ticks, but no names, apart from the detailed design drawings and I, we thought that the quality plan, the idea was to pin somebody down to being responsible for each actual item erm . Yes. What really we thought was the idea of this to pin them down into er in who was doing it and when. Er and we thought that there should have been initials against every item that was ticked. Erm t just to er well there was a l a certain lack of time on this thing, I mean, Dennis had to come round and tell us to start our tick-list else we weren't gonna . Er and if he'd of walked up to John two minutes later he probably wouldn't have made it because we had a right erm but we did feel there had to be some initials. Even if we made somebody's up. Erm getting down to the project re resource sheets er Jack w we felt that even though our bid was fairly low, even a adjusted for a full calculation. Now we, we did feel that erm the difference between our bid an and erm the team two bid, was mainly down to erm correspondence and project en administration. That in fact we were looking at almost two months' work erm for project engineering, when in fact that scheme would have been condensed down into project engineering. Erm then correspondence two hours for two people. Erm client reports again, technical work supervision there was a lot of time a and we just felt that erm for a full year. That's right. The longer it That's, that's, but, but actually if they look at the DOPACS times, for the people doing the work, the surveyors and the designers, they can do their work in two months which is spread out over a year. Now spreading it over a year means that the project administration jumps dramatically, and there's about four, five thousand pounds' worth in there. Er and we felt that was a bit excessive. Erm No fighting gentlemen. Well No but forty hours is about er fifteen . Don't don't worry too much about Okay. Whatever we just we just felt that we were probably very mean on our project administration. That we didn't want to put too many people on the back of the people actually doing the work. And we felt that team two have gone the other way,tha that the work spread out and actually when you looked at the, at the project plan at the back, erm that in fact a surveyor was out for six hundred and eighty three DOPACS units which is about ten days and that had spread all through May, June and July. Erm there was no start date for him and no finish date for him really er considered what the resource . Yeah. That's right. This takes no account of priorities, other works within the section, whether in fact this doesn't need doing until nin early ninety four. Er and so what John's done, he's suggested that in fact if it comes for March ninety four, that he spread the work out till nineteen ninety four which may be the sensible attitude cos people can make those decisions of the schemes to involved. If you do the work early somebody changes their mind as soon as you've finished. But er it would have to be a client discussion, about when he actually wanted the contract completing. But spreading the work out though actually extended the administration costs and not giving start and finish times that were fairly tight, so the people doing the work allowed them to make their own judgments on when it was going to be done. And that things would tend to drag on to the last minute and then they would start and then it would it go forward. And the work would then be completed to approximately the same timescale that we, that we deadlined on the . Er we thought, we thought that the scheme was, the, the sheet was filled in properly er a apart possibly from the, the er initials as we suggested, putting people down on the quality plan, which was obviously down to timescales. Er we thought we could work to it and we thought we had a different rule for timekeeping er and we didn't check the calculations. Well it seems to me that there was obviously enough information in that plan for you to be able to understand very very clearly what, what was wanted and what was going to be done. And I think that's really quite important. And th that's quite encouraging Mm. that, that the group you were assessing managed to do that. We've got one, one last group. Have you any comments on that David? Erm Dennis? Before we go on to group four? Erm No. Right. Group four, have you got all your people still here? Or have they Yeah. escaped? Yeah. No actually i working out punch-line for the joke. Er cos that's why we're so expensive when you lose a few engineers in transit. Erm Literally in transit. In transit. Yeah. Er commenting on group three's erm plan. Really I think at the end of the day it's very similar to, to ours, although the price difference is a bit different. Erm the remit er the client details and the remit's pretty detailed, I think it spells out what should be done. I think the only comment I would have on there is we spelt out specifically what we thought the project manager should be responsible for in the actual remit stages itself. Although Norman's actually ticked that the project manager was gonna be responsible for certain things I think it's one of these things that need to be brought out. Fairly importantly that we're gonna do this, but you've gotta do this. I think I see one problem with, we've put site investigation and flagged the price I think, whereas if we'd said that we require site investigation work to be undertaken by the project manager, we've really got to decide the level of site investigations, so that in the first instance we've gotta approach the soil mechanics and determine from them what, what we need from them. So the, really the foreman's gotta get that price. It's a matter of then where you put that price, either in our fee or invoice directly to the, to the client. But again obviously that doesn't apply but that's what has gotta be done. Again we got into time constraints, there was one or two things obviously that weren't filled in, but I think that's only been nitpicking I think at the time. Obviously has ticked off erm quite a lot of work that the project manager is gonna be responsible for on here, really. Here on the responsibility reference statement. Er it might very well be that the project manager may think, well my God, am I gonna do more work than the engineers that are working with you. So that the split may well have been that er he was gonna to do a lot more work than perhaps the er civil engineering design group. So perhaps a lot of the times but I would have maybe suggested that, that we could have done and presented that as part of the package. So again perhaps tied in our prices, it might be that we've assumed that we'd do more, perhaps than the other groups. So overall . Number of meetings, although we hadn't ticked the box, we had flagged up exact same number as ten, ten sets of meetings, erm six liaison and four technical. Erm milestones, yeah, pretty similar I think really. They were all durations. As a sort of bridge person I was quite interested to find out how different the works, the, the, the Permanent Way office does the structural things and er obviously all the clients have feared that this resources would be thrown perhaps . Maybe three lads to the drawings and maybe two lads to do the calculations, whereas it would be slightly in the bridge office or the works office because of the present resource availability, it tends to be that you only have a smaller number of people doing, doing those tasks. But again, obviously if the resources are there why not use them. Yeah, I think obviously, Norman has put down that he's gonna produce quite a lot of cross-section, I think that's a valid point I think we had assumed, perhaps incorrectly, that the ground was gonna be relatively level. But er they might have been assumptions that we shouldn't have made. Erm I think looking through the actual resource sheet itself, I think we had more project administration time down, and certainly that we had more technical work supervision and you put more of an emphasis on, of actually looking after the lads. There is only, well there are sixteen hours that er that Norman's put down for the total technical work supervision on the job, I would have thought that perhaps that might be quite tight, er you know bearing in mind that it's maybe a job that requires a to the remit. Erm I, I'd initially put a a great big cross through all of that. I know absolutely nothing about P Way but then as Norman was speaking, I realized that perhaps I could put a few ticks in. And it might be that what we've got to do is t is to change that to perhaps include P Way. I think we need a bit more discussion on this. Erm the key dates have to be here as well as on the D Five, cos this forms part of the appointment contract to the client. We're saying to him, we will supply this service on a, by a particular date. He wishes to know that and we will record our progress against it. Erm clearly state any exclusions erm er the moving, diverting the footpath for example. Clearly state that, we're assuming that you are going to divide er divert the footpath, we're not going to to. I think what you have to remember is that these three sheets er are in fact, well w what we have to remember is that the business manager is an internal client, and that these three sheets are something to him, or to her, to type to form the appointment contract, so therefore let's get it right. Erm and you were saying earlier Mike, that this in effect is an, an internal contract and you have a nice little story about some initials behind someone's desk, which you'd Mm. perhaps like to repeat. Is it repeatable in front of a, a microphone? Well sorry. . Later. Yeah. Effectively what we've got here is the mechanism whereby the client requirements are sent to the people who are actually going to do the job on the drawing board. It's an internal type of contract. If there are any problems then we should be able to say to ourselves, well let's go and have look at the project quality plan, what's that tell us? And if we've got the project quality plan right there shouldn't be any problems or queries and it did remind me of this Australian er project manager, who I've mentioned to one or two other people over lunch, who used to sit in a great, a great office, running multimillion pounds' project and when people came in to complain to him, he used to refer them to the plaque on the wall which said R T F C. Read the fucking contract. Effectively, what we've got here is a similar internal message. And so it's very important to get this completed really well tt because then there shouldn't be too many queries later on. So that will do, Dennis. . Erm just a couple of points here,th this form is one of positive identification, that there is no need to do anything with the boxes that you're not going to touch. Erm in other words someone is responsible for drawings therefore you would, you'd put the initials in there. Erm we're not gonna get involved with mine-workings, for example, nothing appears there. Positive identification. Erm I think for some reasons Trudy we so a rogue in there, bridge assessment records, I applies to P Way. Erm Erm It may do. It may do. I mean steps and things like that. It might do? Ah sorry. Well I stand corrected. project . I told you I know nothing about er P Way. Erm category of checking, one of those b the idea would be to ring either the double nought or the nought. Erm self-checking, as we mentioned before, self-checking i is permiss permissible. Er if you've got a competent p person that you trust preparing the estimate, they can check it themselves. It doesn't have to be checked by someone else, it doesn't have to be an independent check, unless the regulations demand it. Which I don't think in estimating they do. Er certainly the works office, there's no reason why you shouldn't draw, do a drawing and check the drawing yourselves. It's quite permissible provided you trust the person and that person the necessary skills. Weekly reports and things we've, we've mentioned before. Erm the purpose of the two columns, and I think we've missed this out, is, is that we should be identifying how many w w whether we're using er going to produce drawings by hand or by CAD. Erm and I could thi think of no other er quality measures necessary to meet the er quality objectives apart from bringing your sandwiches. I suggest you might bring a sandwich along Paul. The point I want to get across here is that this a P Way form, it is your form, not my form, not the Q A form, it's the P Way form for you to use and to change to the way that you want it to change. Erm I don't, and similarly with that form, forget the details, that again is a P Way form for you, it's your form, you change it. I'm not interested. This one again, that is a P Way form, erm the only person who's interested in that is Trevor and his organization, so if you want that changing, agree it with Trevor. And that really is all I need to say unless you've got any questions? I think er Granville can field er any questions when he does his spot after coffee then, Dennis. I thought he might go, he might do it now and we go for coffee . Oh! Oh dear . Okay, let's have a break er if you can come back reasonably quickly er we can make up a few seconds. do it quietly. Right. You've In case anybody doesn't know me, I think I've had dealings with most people here, but my name's Granville . And I'm a project engineer within the works design group. Hopefully this morning you've now been introduced to the concept of quality planning, as it's intended within the civil engineering design group. I trust the exercise you've just a carried out has at least given you an insight into the format and use of this document. But what are the advantages? As a project engineer, I've been using a similar document for about the last six months. Its format has changed over that time, quite a bit, because like any quality system, it's subject to constant review. And as Mike referred to this morning, there are ways and means, if there's items in here that need amending and improving, there are ways and means that you can do it. But throughout all that time the principles contained within the document have always cha remained the same. If we go back a few years, I don't know how many people remember before we had DOPACS, I remember when projects used to come into the group from on high, they used to filter through the organization, until they landed on somebody's desk who was actually supposed to carry out the work. At best he maybe had a letter from the client, that letter had gained copious notes as it filtered its way through the hierarchy, some helpful, some intelligible, unintelligible should I, should I say, and some contradictory. You may have then had a verbal exchange with your next in line, but bar that you were expected to get on with the work. And then we had that introduction of DOPACS, and all that changed. And I ask the question, or did it? True, projects can now come into the organization at any level. True, we have written remits. But by their very nature they are only a few lines on a piece of paper at the moment. The final recipient has still got to get on with the work based on this small amount of information, only now with DOPACS he has a time limit. And that time limit, or DOPACS units, in the past has always been a wee bit nebulous. It's been based on jobs we've done for clients in the past, based on pla past experience. We've never in the past looked in detail at the total work content to work out these time units, after all in the past, we've known what the client wants, we've been giving him it for years. But now, as you're probably all aware, this has changed. The railway is now business and client orientated, the work content that we go into, is decided by their requirements and not what we would like to give them. You've now all seen a project quality plan, but I'd just like to go through a few of the headings just to advise you where I think the benefits lie. We start off with the front cover sheet. This categorizes the stage of the work, feasibility, scheme, design. Which immediately identifies the scope of the work required. It also sets down the project team, encompasses all the functions involved within that scheme, thus ensuring that early contact is made between all individuals. The lead project engineer is named, who is then responsible for the day to day running of the project. But the project coordinator retains an overview at review meetings. Inside the front cover are the project details, which is a form D One we've all seen and used before. It sets out the agreed remit, including any constraints. This remit is agreed with the client, by the project coordinator, who can be anyone within the organization but would normally be an experienced engineer. The project quality plan is then compiled between the project coordinator and the lead project engineer, based on this agreed remit. Also included under this heading are all the client details which enable an appointment contract to be prepared and forwarded. Now come some of the sections which you may not be so familiar with. We have the responsibility statement. This identifies exactly those areas of the project that the C E D G will be responsible for, within the terms of the appointment contract. Once agreed with the client it ensures that all relevant responsibilities are covered by either the C E D G, the project manager or the client. A copy of this statement is forwarded to the client and therefore no ambiguity exists. In the works one the main bulk of the project quality plan is the process check list. I note in the P Way it's only a page but the principles are still the same. This has proved the most useful as far I've been concerned and the works I've done in the works office. Cos it comprises a checklist encompassing the major requirements necessary to complete and the project and it helps to identify the processes involved, and the stage to which are to be taken, for the s for the successful completion of the project. Thus ensuring all items of work are taken into account, and none are overlooked or forgotten. It indicates the persons who are to carry out those aspects of the work, thereby defining person responsibilities. It also identifies the management procedures that should be followed to correctly complete the project in line with office requirements. The final item of the process checklist includes the necessary reports required to keep our clients informed of the progress, both physical and financial, of the scheme we're undertaking. So, therefore, right from the outset the project en the lead project engineer knows which ro reports are required, how many and when they are to be provided. Next we have the project resource sheet. This has been in use in the works office for some time, it was, it used to be called an aide-memoire. This summarizes the main processes and resources required to carry out that, this particular item of work. Having defined the processes in detail under the checklist, it now becomes much easier to allocate the necessary resources, time units, DOPACS units or whatever you like to call them, to successfully complete the project. The project resource sheet enables these units to be identified for each individual's activity within the project, thus ensuring a realistic fee-bid. The final page is the project plan, the D Five, of which I'm sure we're all familiar. The project resource sheet is so designed that once you've allocated the resources, it is now relatively easy to transfer those res resources over to the project plan. All that is contained within the project quality plan enables the project plan to be completed correctly and accurately. We all know it's extremely important that that project plan is as accurate as possible. Because once costed it represents the estimated fee for the group's involvement in a project, either in the form of an appointment contract for the client to sign. or as a fee-bid. It defines the project timescales and priority to enable individual workloads within the group to be planned through DOPACS, and it also important n needed-by dates, the milestones, within the project, which again through DOPACS enables checks on the physical and financial progress to be carried out at any time. To summarize. I believe that project quality plans are essential within our group to ensure we provide our clients with a cost-effective quality service. It also allows a consistency of standards and policy from all the functions within the group to our clients. By the use of project quality plans, we're ensuring that the following important criteria are fully considered and answered. The first criteria is, what? A clear and precise remit is obtained and documented. When? Needed-by dates, both within and on completion of projects, are again clearly identified. How? The depth and scope of work content is defined, allowing resource requirements to be accurately predicted. Who? Individual responsibilities at all levels are defined within this plan. And most important of all, how much? Ensures a realistic fee-bid based on all of the above. And if we can get all of those five right it helps all of us within the group to hopefully get it right first time. And if we get it right first time, we'll have a satisfied client who will hopefully return to us for more work. And that is the situation we're in, that's the name of the game, is to satisfy our clients and that is all project quality planning. Er I know Mike now goes off at slightly different subjects, so I would suggest if there are any questions, not only on what I've just said, but really what you've done this morning, the exercise, either myself, Dennis, or Mike, or Trevor could answer any questions? Stunned silence. Silence. Straight between the eyes. I think the problem with a clear remit I can't really come to terms with that, precisely,competitive . How do you know your competitors clear remit? Or do we tend to build things in because we've already done that type of job and we know the job and things in subconsciously where ? is to discuss wi with the client what it is that he what he said, what . He'll just say, well yes, yes. I would hope that in a competitive sense recognize the implications. I would hope that in a competitive situation i it is happening now un under a non-competitive situation, er the clients are giving us written remits erm and I think we'll be going further down the path. of the client to lead you on to perhaps you could introduce more elements into your actual remit diverted an and I accept . Yes. Th the remit though that, that we're actually putting down on the appointment contract, is actually the result of the negotiations between the project coordinator and the client. I in the past th Granville mentioned these letters that used to work their way down from on high which might have just been a,a bit of a twinkle in somebody's eye with no money at all to spend on physical work but even so it was given the same status within the R C E's organization of five or ten years ago a a as an investment item was, it was almost authorized. A and we tended to not bother going back to the client, but giving what we thought he needed, that was the culture of the regional civil engineer, Mm. if Brian didn't think we needed it then it didn't even get a lookout let alone er er resources allocated to it. Nowadays it's different, when a client comes to us and says, I need something here. If he doesn't know what he needs, that's great because we can help him a a and he's not gonna go somewhere else where he isn't going to get that help. But at the end of the discussions between the project coordinator and the client, when you have actually helped him and led along, you could have this, or you could have that, or perhaps we could just take it to this stage, cost some options out and give you a recommendation. Whichever you go, write down your interpretation of what you think you have agreed with the client and sign it and send it to him. If he signs it that indicates that he has accepted what you've jointly agreed, and then you've got something, a milestone, something to go back and measure yourselves against and to justify what you've done against erm the fees that, that you're invoicing the client for, if the client at s at some stage decides perhaps that's not really what he wanted after all. Er in a competitive situation, the Rickmansworth tender w w w was a,a an example of that, we actually had a contract document which is about as thick and complicated as one of the contract documents that we would put out for civil engineering physical work to er er a contractor. And we actually had to comply with certain clauses a a and provide method statements and It's got a hundred and fifty sheets in it. So it was written as a document. So if we're going into to this And what did the competitor have? If we go into this fixed fee competitive scenario, then we will insist that we are actually comparing apples with apples and not apples with pears,whe when the client looks at our fee and he looks at an external consultant's or another railway internal consultant's fee Yeah. I think that's the way we see it going and that's the way we hope it's going Yes. but just at the moment in P Way we feel that it isn't possibly going that way No. and yet a a a a and with And it one or two competitive tenders that have . That's all we're worried about. A a are writing the remit and then the remits aren't going out to the other competitors. Well if that's the case Bob, it's really the fault lies with our client not with us. Our client should be presenting us with a sheaf of paper with pink ribbon round it, saying, we would like a tender on that, fixed fee, by two weeks on Tuesday, or whatever. A a and by the way, you are in competition with a number of other organizations, both internal and external. They should be doing that work, if they're asking us to design a remit, price it and then they're using that remit to get prices from other people, er I would suggest that, that we perhaps ought to have words with our clients on that basis a and say we're quite happy to tender in competition but erm i you ought to give it a little bit of thought before you actually put the thing . . Erm I think it might be helpful if I make a comment on this business of er tenders from the other side of the fence actually, Bob. When I worked er for in the mid eighties, we had been through a period where we'd always taken the cheapest tender. Er for North Sea platform design and construction activities. We very quickly realized that the cheapest tender wasn't always the cheapest in the medium or long term,t to , but we weren't very quick to realize how to put that right . Because we had a tender board operation which said you take the cheapest tender. Eventually through reasonably correct bid evaluation, we began to learn how to cost out inferior bids, when we had a very very low bid in we could see that certain things had been skimped, certain things might even have been missed out completely, and we then began to cost the effect of that on the organization. But it did take some time. Now, I suspect that your industry, shall I put that in inverted commas, Bob? Has got to go through this learning curve to some degree. But I do see the project quality plan being extremely valuable because you will be feeding back the front part of the quality plan to the client and explaining the extras that you're going to do, or the constraints within which you're working. Now you cannot force the client to take that into account and read and understand it, but I do believe that it will be possible for you, in writing to the client, to explain the advantages and the extras which you are incorporating within your er proposed scheme which you feel are absolutely fundamental to the correct working of the project. In other words, they're not, they're not extras er in, in the absolute sense, they are necessary for that particular scheme, but they may be things which less erm experienced consultants might omit. And so there's a tremendous onus upon your good selves, to highlight the experience if you like and expertise you have of spotting problems, and explaining how you will get around then within the given fee-bid. I, I think that's, that's the most sort of optimistic comment I can make Bob, but it is a potentially fraught issue. I think, I think, yes. I think, I think all we're worried about is the transition period between Yeah. the, the in-house, friendly at atmosphere we've had up to now, er non-competitive, across to what we're gonna see in the future, in the future, which is competitive with a professional client giving a professional remit to a number of tenderers, which will be us. But in the meantime there is a very loose remit situation. And that's all we're worried about, this transition period, that we might lose clients within that. Put it like this, Bob, I don't think the project quality plan is going to hinder you. Oh no. If anything, I would believe very strongly, that a more systematic approach to this, a checklist for checking specific items off, will in fact help you, Yes. through this transition period, but there isn't a slick answer to your immediate problem. Yes. Th th the more, the better remit we write, if you like, in reply in our contract and the more erm Explanation? explanation and conditions we put on it, to say what we are and aren't going to do, the better. Erm it's just this transition period. Th th there is one point on the same vein as that Bob,th the second sheet on the D One, where there's a suggestion that we tick off additional bits that we're gonna put into our contract, we are going to arrange possessions,we we're gonna do this that and the other. We've gotta be careful that in er using that sheet, we don't do it in such a way as to bully and turn off the customer by saying, by the way, you'd better make sure you've done this, this, this, this and this, cos I'm not doing it. You know,i i it is a very fine line between er how we talk to our customers, which is why I, I, I can't stress enough the need for the project coordinators to talk face to face with the customer first of all, and perhaps gently lead him down some of the items in this list that the project coordinator thinks the client might not have remembered. Er a a and then say, well we can take that on board for you if you like but it might be more efficient for you to do the possessions because the civil engineer Leeds, actually is part of your organization a a and it might be more appropriate for you to get those possessions in, for you to decide whether or not you want one big bang o o o of a week's possession or, or you want to do it i in four hour no-trains periods for the next three years. That type of putting back into a business context, is something which er we need to help the business come to terms with while they are growing in this new scheme of procuring work in a more formal and structured way. I would actually like to emphasize that the qu quality plan is originally intended to help the people who are going to have to do the job at the coal face. However, I believe that there are advantages in improved communications with the client. If you er use the front part of the plan correctly and complete it well. Okay . Any more questions? Granville you got off very lightly there. Okay? Right. Let's er let's move onto the downhill part of the er proceedings today. Mm. You heard Dennis say, a number of times today, that a project quality plan format has been designed for the Permanent Way group, and that it's your format and you change it. Granville emphasized just a few minutes ago, anything to do with the quality system is not a Moses job. It's not tablets of stone which have been brought down from Mount Sinai forever to remain unalterable. It's a living system, it's designed to help you, if it's not supporting and helping you then it must be changed. I now want to talk about two or three of the mechanisms and techniques we hope to be able to use in implementing changes when things aren't necessarily to your liking. I will add a cautionary comment however, and say that you won't necessarily be able to change absolutely everything, at any time of the day or night, because there are some base requirements we have to address and we have to meet. Those base requirements are enshrined within I S O Nine Thousand and One, and if that says, thou shalt do X and Y and Z, then we have to do X and Y and Z. So there may be occasions when you feel that it would be nice to make er a change to er a system or procedure, and in actual fact it becomes really not possible because we would then be going against the dictates and requirements in I S O Nine Thousand and One. Having said those very harsh words however, there aren't very many hard and fast requirements in I S O Nine Thousand and One. It's called a quality system standard but in actual fact it's a code of practice. Its language is that of a code of practice. It says, for example, you need documented work instructions except where it's not necessary. So it's your choice as to how much or how little you write down. But what it's actually doing is prompting management to think. Shall we have a documented work instruction for this activity or not? But nevertheless it does contain one or two quite hard requirements which we have to meet if we're going to obtain and retain the certificate. So whilst you might think it's a nice idea to make a change to some procedure or work instruction or whatever you want to call it, there may be the odd occasion on which it's not actually possible to bring in a change because we're faced with still er meeting the requirements in the base er I S O Nine Thousand document. Now, how can we go about er introducing any changes to the system? Well we have some quality system procedures which were referred to earlier this morning and they are called nonconformance control, corrective action and internal audit. Now what are these erm strange words all about? I think that's perhaps something I ought to explain first and foremost. Nonconformance control. The I S O Nine Thousand document uses the term, nonconforming product, but the word product er is a very broad word, it's actually defined in I S O Nine Thousand as meaning product or service, and it can be anybody's product or service. It can be a product or service you've bought in, not necessarily a product or service that you are actually producing or generating yourselves. So what is this business? Nonconforming product control? school? Yep. How d'ya get on today then? Fine. I gon I got, I got all my numbers right all my maths right, and one mistake on the spelling, just one mistake in spelling. Well that's not bad. Aha. Do you want me to go, erm, and get changed then I, and then I can come and watch the . Okay then. Go on Yeah? then get changed. Bye! Is David coming? Yeah, David's coming. Oh! Neighbours ain't started. Is that you changed then Jacqueline? Yeah. That didn't take you very long. I know, because I had my clothes on from gym got all them. Had your gym today? Aha. How did you get on at school then? Fine. Anything exciting happen? No. Nothing? Nothing. A boring day. Oh! Except going to the haggis and erm they tried to, and haggis and potatoes. Aye. Was this your Burns supper today? Yeah. And er another thing erm we are I wasn't . Did you? Very good! And what else have I got to say? You probably could practise it tonight then Oh! Jacqueline. I got, aha, I got on I got one with a camera. From the camera? How d'ya mean? From a camera because, at the Burns supper Mrs ordered a camera. Aha. And, then she sa Mrs said to me, not Mrs but Mrs , she helps out, and she organized the Burns supper thing, she said Aha. who I've, cos she said to Mr if she could bring a camera for us to camcord Aha. sa so that erm before she can erm if the see the erm to organize it and Mrs goes we need to erm stand up and so that. Oh good! So when Yeah. will you get to see it? Tomorrow. Tomorrow? That'll be nice then? Aha. And what was haggis and turnip like? Er okay, I suppose. Mummy I have to go to drama class. Oh. Not for a wee while yet Jacqueline. Mm. It's not till six o'clock. I'm just making the tea just now. Are you? You're getting stew and potatoes. Urgh! You like it, don't kid er, kid yourself. Urgh! Do you want a wee drink of juice? No thanks. No thanks? It's not like you. You usually eat everything in sight don't you? Well, you were an hour late, weren't you when you collect collected me? Right. Well the dinner shouldn't be too long. How do you ? Cos you've got to do them haven't you? Got to keep the place Aha. nice and clean. I think I'll change my mind, I think I will have a juice. Right. Drink of juice. Well you have it then. I think I'll go out and ge feed the rabbit when I, he can play as well. I don't think I can do that to get the juice and have a at the same time. So you're going out to feed the rabbit? Yeah. Right, okay then Jacqueline. Okay. Bye! Bye! I'll be in the back garden as well okay? Right okay. Bye! Hi David. Is that you in from school? Mhm. Had a good day? Yep. Do you want a drink of juice? No. No? Nope. Why what's wrong? Mum. Aha. Well, you know you know Micky? Aha. Well, it was him that ran across the road and nearly got killed! Was it? Mhm. I told you it was him didn't I? Yeah. Did you say I'd seen him? Yeah. And what did he say? He said he said he didn't really get knocked over. No but he was awful near the cars wasn't he? And he shouldn't have been going in the woods, should he? Nope. And what did he say about that? David. He says that he was only pretending to go He was only pretending to go into the woods? Yeah. He's coming it isn't he David? David! What else happened at school today? What else happened? Nothing? Finished now. Good girl. Have you fed the rabbit? Mum! Mm. Do you What? know what? Andrew spilled paint all over! What? Just all over the table. All over the table. Mm. Well I can erm over . Over everything was it? How did they manage that? Cos they we we were, we were doing it and and wha they were all kinds of and it's got and I like, rushed it over to the sink and, and then just and then with the table it fell My goodness! No th I couldn't have spilt it by going whoop! And you know that girl who called called Moira, she di she didn't get killed, she didn't, she got ran over. She she's got bumps, and bruises, and cuts, and some scratches as well. Is she at the hospital? Yeah. Is she? Yes. In hospital, I mean Was she at the hospital? but mum,no not in the hospital. Is she still in it? She is! Well she won't be back at school that soon, she was only knocked down the other day. Aye. Monday. Monday. That's right. Down here. Jacqueline won a certificate David at the Burns! Mm. And she was on a camcorder today. Ah! Do you know what else? I won, I won a ce I won too. You won too? What did you win? Cos I did I won one for the poem and one for the song. Very good! And you know I went swimming today? Aha. I won er two only I didn't get it. So I mean, for getting this badge it was really fast, but I was really fast . Very good! I think I might qualify, I'm not sure. Mum, And what about the gala they're having in February? Oh, I've already qualified for that next year. You've qualified for that? Mm. Well that's good then. Cos you get all the times against that clock cos I did well at it because I, cos I was the only one that, I was closest, you can't get any closer than one second! Well that's good then. One second? Mm mm. I know. One second I had to do it. I'm really fast. Hey. And I knew I would get it ba one, one second. Well do the next time then eh? Can I, yeah. So what else has been happening? Just shut up! You, I'm not doing anything to you and I'll flatten you if you do that again! Now! No fighting. It's your fault. David! Mum. Mhm? Jackie said Jacqueline put down that mirror before it breaks please. Okay. Mum! She says that I, I, Jackie I was so, sure I was one second away from Don't listen to her. You'll get a punch on the nose! I, actually,ca can you do those? Actually! Jackie get off! You! Is Dawn going to the drama class tonight? Yeah. It's funny how you pulled it off. In fact, it's coming off the . I know. Do you want to go and find out all what the plans are? Mummy! No. But why not? Not just now. Mummy! When, where am I going ? I don't know, we'll have to look the book up. Actually I can never remember it. I'm sure . actually actually actually . Mummy. And what about that dance class Jackie, did you find out what time it is on Sunday? She sa she said that in someone said about the time today but I've forgotten. Well you'll need to write it down tomorrow. Aha. And she said if I, I say ask her tomorrow if she can if she Mum, I hope we're doing improvisation. if she's got . Mhm. She said she'll tell you a bit more about the Sunday about the the production we're gonna put on. Good. But I hope it Mum. What? Do er Aha. Mm. Actually, is this a paracetamol? Mhm. You got a sore head have you? Aha. But I can't drink owt. Erm Well go and get a drink. Is that carton out of the fridge. Juice is up on the top there. Mm. So what about Russell today then David, has he still got a sore throat? Nah, not really. Is it better? I think so. I think he ma maybe just skiving it. D'ya think so? Yeah. Well erm, I tell who wi winned it all. What? I wonned it with You won what? won I winned it with Neil with Neil,I won it with, Neil wonned it and me, the poem and Jennifer and me won the the song. Very good. The song? Did Jennifer win the You said, you said song did she? Yeah. Very good. Mm. You got What did Jennifer sing? what d'ya get? Ah, she sang . Did she? Very good. Mhm. Not bad. Nobody thought she deserved to win cos she she wasn't that clear. Was she not? Well why did she win then? Erm well just cos Mrs was was, did we Then when it happened er, everybody, she went I'm the winner! And who else won in your group Jacqueline? Jacqueline . What did she say? God! She said erm something with in the morning. It wasn't, it was the wee Herbie. The wee Herbie. Was not! Gary done the, er did and the wee red motor. You won a certificate for that didn't you? Ah, wee red motor. Gar did Gary win? Yeah. Aha. And I done the wee red motor. I said that's the one I said you should do. Mhm. And everybody had a . He said, and Gary said, and I've got a wee new motor. It was good fun. Good. Another wee new motor! Very good. It was funny,i Mhm. and we were all going ha! And when we gave . Kirsty won. What did Kirsty sing? Christ! I don't know, Kirsty was in that, that twice. But, David won So she's been I won Jackie made one and Wesley told one. And what about the girlie that sung the song in your class Jacqueline? It was Evelyn . And did she win? Aha. Very good. I think I might start up swimming club again mum. David, you said that last week, and then when it came to the time And then I wouldn't like. You wouldn't go. Throat and leather. I'm thinking about it. Well I'll think about it as well. Think about it! Think about it! What is it? What's the weather like out there Jack? Quite good. Is it mild? Mm? It's okay as well, though you Mum, did my face go red? Nope. Oh! I will, I'll Is your ro is your room tidy Jacqueline. Don't really know. Well go and have a look and see. I'll get it! I'll get it! I'll get it! That'll probably be Dawn. Most likely. Hello. Goodnight . Is it Dawn? Jacqueline you get your dinner eaten. Ba! Go and get eating. No! Hi Dawn. Well what a what does your mum want to do? Well see whatever, what suits her. Anything at all? Well what, does she want to take you and I'll collect you, or other way round? Right. She'll take you? Right, and I'll No! collect. Right okay Dawn. See you later! Bye ! No! I don't like you! I want I think there's a message on the answering machine. I never noticed fe earlier. Hi it's Dawn here, I'm just erm wondering erm what the arrangements are for tonight okay? Oh it's Dawn! Call me back . We must have missed her. Well where were we? It was not Dawn. It was. She was just saying ju it's Dawn, I'm just wondering what the arrangements were for tonight. But we've never listened to the answering machine. So we didn't Where were we? know that she'd phoned us earlier. Oh! I've probably been out playing and you've probably been at the shops. Excuse me! It just shows you you know, like, we don't always hear this phone. Just as well we're getting the two new points put in tomorrow. Plug points? Well we're having a point put in the kitchen and one put in the bedroom. And what's that for? Why's that? For the telephone. Why? So as that we'll hear the telephone all over the house. Jacqueline, finish off your dinner. I don't like it! Jacqueline, I'll smack you! Come on! I hate it! Come on Jacqueline. David. What you doing? Just fiddling about. Just fiddling about? Mhm. Did you check your homework? Yeah. No I did I didn't get any homework yesterday. Did you get it all right? Was she pleased with you today? I think she was. And no fighting with the girls? Move just now then David till I get to the cupboard. I don't fight with the girls. You do fight with the girls! You were fighting with, what was her name? Lisa ? She was picking on me. I don't fight with her, I just throw her about. What's Richard saying today? Nothing? ? Mhm. Just, just . Move! Move! Come on David. Move! Is he saying nothing? He bought a new game for him. Ah, you said. He just like him, he just well just got it repaired or something. Oh crumbs! Yeah, that's what it was. Not a new one. Cos he'd just got that before Christmas. I know! And he, he he finished with it . Well that's okay then. Well that's ten to six coming up, so you better get ready for Dawn's mum. For when she comes across. Mm? Don't want to go. Well you'll have to get ready for going. Your Well trainers on, or whatever you put on your feet. Come on David! Move it! Tell your sister as well. Yeah. David! Come on! Less of your nonsense! Tt! And is your room tidy? What, what in my room? Mhm. Nice and tidy! Nice and tidy. I'll go up there and have a look. Okay then. Right, you go and practise your play for tomorrow Jacqueline. Okay. Very good Jacqueline. Thank you. What about you David? Have you gotta do yours? Yes, David has gotta do his. Are you David? I'll try. Yeah. Okay. I'm just watching T V, I'll be in in a minute. You help me. No, I cannae help you. Come on then, you do it. She er she, well I'll Go on then. just do it. Just do the . You've hurt your finger!! You think it's . Noo, just you have it. That way. Come and get my specs and see. My! So it is! And there's the school. Noo did nay break my . See here man, you knows got nay ,that was nay there. And noo to make it sail along. a wee bit sore. And tie a bonny hanky round it. You did nay. we'll be over and see noo, there you are, you've got the same John. Very good. But anyway, that's the same thing about Walter . And whe di what did you get at drama class tonight then? We were just actually doing the the parts of the play. Mhm. Whoops! Is that all? Yep. Do you want me to stop that mum? And what about erm Mhm. Is that all you got tonight? Mm mm. Well we did warm up and And that was all? We did it was, it took quite, took a lot of time. And I think that was all. Yeah! Mhm. And what was Dawn saying? What was Dawn saying? Oh! Why did we not get but I wanna do that part! What part? Maybe it's a big girl who's doing it. Well what kind of part was it like? The part a the part of the girl who's going to school. That's not actually, because they don't know who's, erm, the girl's gonna be. They do. Gemma, Gemma will do it. It's not Gemma, Gemma's just taking part. I know. Well that's, well that's what I said. Well who's it going to be then? Well,I should think. So what are you David? Brother. I'm the brother of Of the girl? Aha. Aha. And what are you Jackie? I'm just one of the schoolgirls who e is the girl's friend. And what's Dawn? Bi Dawn's the pest. The pest? Mhm. And has everybody got a part? Aha. Erm yeah, everybody should be doing a part. So d'ya think it'll be quite good then? Mm. Yeah, it will be Suppose it is. Suppose it could be, I don't And what else was Anne saying? Er, well we only really done exercises and then started off with the play. She only did, them drama people came up with quite a lot ideas She was saying what? About the Them drama people came up with quite a good id couple of good ideas. What was that? Oh! Just Is she gonna have you altogether to practise? One day. Just one day? Mhm. When's that gonna That will probably be? that'll probably be on the dress rehearsal. And when will that be? Er, er on Well how can yous practise No. They don't know when it will be. They just Only before, before the summer holidays though. They just said that to come up with erm ideas and stuff for the dream. For the dream? Aha. So it's a dream? Come up with ideas? Mm mm. It's called The Dream. The Dream. The Dreamer Aha. the Dreamer, Dreamer, er Dreamer. Well that's fine then. Are you tired now? Yeah. No. Well yous better get ready for, you've had a shower this morning, eh David? Yes. Yeah, but I always have my showers at night time. Well you've never had one, you never had one last night. Well I'll have one Go on then, up you go. tonight. Cos if not it'll soon be time for bed. Okay, I'll just go and get my shower then. Okay then. Hurry up and get it then! Don't diddle-daddle about. Okay. Mum, can I have a bath? Whatever you want. Okay then. Remember and wash your hair. Okay. Remember you've got the dentist tomorrow. Mhm. I'll have to write a wee note to say that I've to come and get you about ten to twelve. Mhm. Don't let me forget in the morning, right? I've got a dentist appointment? Mhm. You have. Mm. I've not had one for ages. Oh you have. Well, are you going up to get ready for your bed as well? Yeah. Right okay then. Night-night then David. Night-night. Hi mum. Morning Jack. What can I have for breakfast today? Honey Nut Loops? Okay. There you go. I'll get you a plate. I can't wait until today! Cos Burns play. Mhm. I've got . That's right. I'll put on the heating, eh? Yeah. There we go. Frosty this morning. What? Frosty outside. Aha . Are you still tired? What? Are you still tired ? Yes. Oh . I'm tired myself. Well at least it's just a half day at school today. Yeah. Oh! You had a shower last night, eh? Yeah. Well, what are you saying? Nothing. Have you got the milk? Yeah. There you are. I'm cold. I've just put the heating on. But it is quite frosty today. It's not misty this morning like it was. It seems to have cleared up. Mhm. All that mist. Fog. Fog, yes. We've been getting a wee bit of light in now in the mornings, eh? Aha. David up? I don't know really. Have you not seen him? I'm tired. Mum. What? When did you see our . Aha. How? You missed it. Oh . We've got You got what? We what one's we're on. What's on? Yeah. On the Monday. It's not a Monday holiday. Did you hand in the prayer book, yeah? What? The book. You made the prayer. Did you hand it in. Aha. If I do . Right. What that poem? Mhm. What about that rabbit in there. Good morning Peter. What's that? Will you want a cup of tea? Or is that cup of water enough for you? Aargh! Oh. I think you should stop putting the beans on the toast! Well, well make it yourself in future. Good on you mum! I thought you said you wanted didn't you? Listen to her! Good on you mum she saying! That's what you said you wanted. Burnt toast? Oh oh! There you go Jackie. Let's eat. Aye, that man's coming today. What, this morning? What man's that? That coming this morning. For the . On the telephone. Right. I need to get my shower early then. Yeah. Do you want a cup of tea Jacqueline? Er er er yes please. I can't eat any more of that breakfast mum. You had enough? Aha. Just a cup of tea you want? Oh I know what, erm the the competitions are going to start next week. What? Oh er told lots of times last week Mhm. but I can't remember it. Oh well, you can never remember any of them can you? Yeah. You got a memory like a sieve. Ooh! I got picked for my maths yesterday. Did you? Good. Mm mm. Was she pleased with you? Aha. Will she soon be moving you back up do you think? Maybe. You better stick in though, eh? I quite like the lessons. I got easy lessons . I know that Jacqueline, but you do nay want easy work. I do want easy work . You don't. It won't do you any good in the future, will it? It will. E at least when I have er, er the easy work I get my maths right. I know that Jacqueline, you may well get it right, but you have come up with hard work sometime don't you? Yeah. Well er the easy work must be Was David having a shower or something? Probably. But I'll go up and get ready for school. Have you finished your tea? Yeah. Well, what time is it? Eight o'clock. Yes. Eight o'clock on the dot. Go on now, get ready. Ha. There's your tea Peter. Where will I put it? David! Come on . Morning David. Morning. Give your a dad a biscuit out. Did you get with a hedgehog. They're calling them bus shelters now. What's a bus shelter for? And what's the other one? There's another name as well calling it It is according to this. Oh the girls? Vanilla Ice. Eh? Vanilla Ice. And Vanilla Ice. And what do they and Vanilla Ice, well he's got, he's got urgh! What's his name? What do they call ? Must do. They call him no, I don't want to say that cos it's bad. What is it? What is it? What is it? Tell us anyway. No, I don't really What do know that it's called a . Anyway, he does nay where to put it. Well Vanilla Ice I've got a beast. Vanilla Ice? No it's life. Life. Vanilla Ice? Life. Life. Vanilla Ice. Life! It's life, Vanilla Life. They just fancy you David. Mm. That's all it is, they just fancy you. Well David doesn't like it. Yeah, but you know that, that's best though fancying you trying to tell you. Mhm. What do you reckon? I don't know Peter. I've got a brochure for you. You not got a day off ? I'll give her one. Well I've give her one. Hey! Ha!and a good one, I've got a good one to sing this one. Put a mats back in the car? Yes. Oh yes. All my life Di did you put erm my father leave the keys in the car door last night? Oh God! I think I did. You did, aye. Suppose I did. And I was lucky I noticed them. Oh and try and sing. Oh my love is my No you'll never sing like that David. forever the . See you'll never get up there. No you have to expand your lungs. Right, here's your black pudding. Put your arms out, give it a . Aha. Dad does nay like my burnt toast. I don't think anyone likes burnt toast. There you are. At least it's a half day today. Yeah. Well you won't go to your bed or anything like that will you? Well, at some point. Got two men coming this morning. What for? One for the windows and one for the phone points. I meant to go to the bank last, I meant to get cash for that guy but I'll make him a cheque. Oh well. And you've got the de oh I've got a wee letter to write! The dentist, today? Yeah. Thirty first. I hope I've been by the time Yeah. erm take you to the dentist. Dad ! What? Come down ! What you wanting him for? Eh? What you wanting him for? Mm. What's your teacher's name again? Miss Mrs . I keep forgetting her name. Oops! Here he comes. What are you saying David ? What you saying? What is it? Dad don't call me that! I don't like it! Tt! Okay. Or shall I? Er, you're buying me that race for my birthday. And guess what, yesterday What? yesterday, they erm they got Jacqueline and told Jacqueline that if know is that you call them bus shelter. Who is it? The twins? No. Well who? The reason why we . Oh well . Stupid! They're only winding you up. See see, folk like that, right, see when they come up, get somebody in the, in the playground and they can annoy them they keep bloody doing it! Just ignore them! Int that right Val? Mhm. That's right. It's Gemma that fancies you. Which one is it? about their names. Is she keeping me? Who? Eh? Mm mm. Mm mm. Wanna show me the fiver? Val, can you do me a favour? No! Okay, just put it like that. Excuse me! Excuse me! Would you pay up and get ready for school. What's that? He's here. Just go and watch the television. David , David has a dentist app I think his has a dentist appointment. You're never away to the dentist Peter. Mum. What will the dentist man do to me? I don't know. Just lo have a look at your teeth. He won't cut out any of my teeth will he? Mm. Mum, oh I'm not very hungry. Are you not hungry either? No, no. So you have to be at the main entrance for Not me? Yeah you. At school is it? Aha. Mm. Well what if it's during the assembly! It's o half past eleven. Assembly'll be over then will it not? Better be. It's half ten. Oh well. Half past ten assembly? Hour we get a couple of songs . Is it an hour? How long does it last for the assembly? Mm? I don't know. We have play time a after assembly. Then, what time does it usually finish? What time does the assemb ba la ba la finish? Mhm. Erm about play time. Maths, maths not going Dinner time? Does it finish before dinner time? No. No. It's play time after the assembly. It's play time after assembly? On the first day we have an assembly alright? We have the assembly and after assembly which is maths then, and then it's play time. Assembly first, then play time? So it'll be over then? Right Jacqueline. Mum. Hurry up. What does it matter? You should get a clean top on, that's got a dirty mark in it. Yeah, but I didn't have any. This is your dentist appointment. Oh! Right. But er we . It's the last one. You go and get a jumper on David. Morning! Morning! Ah. Morning! Morning! Morning. Wo! Wo! Wo! Hello! Dear Mrs , Jackie has a dental appointment at eleven fifty A M. That was me. Shut that door mum . Did you go to your classes last night? Yes I did. Did you? Did you? So you, you be at the main entrance for at the secretary's office, right, for half past eleven, right? Yeah. Well the teacher will get me. Will she? Mm mm. Here are then. Give that to Mrs . I'll just, I won't bother Mrs . I don't have that much time to get my milk. Mum, we might as well get . And you got o fifteen? Fifteen, half an hour? Aha. No. Fifteen, quarter of an hour. Oh, I've got to get Did you do your own hair? Go and give me No! No, you're not doing your own hair. Give me a brush and I'll do your hair. Oh I can see we gonna get a new phone tonight. You, nobody touches the phone till I'm back! Let me see it! Right Jackie. Oh that's good. That's a lovely picture. Well I can put my hair in myself. I know I can put it in myself. I know that, but I'll just do it for you. Seeing I'm here. My love is like a Don't take it out! I'll do it. No! That's it. No! But where's your black bobble anyway? I don't want my black bobble in ! Well you're supposed to be wearing the black one Jack Hi. For your telephones. Aye, come in. Thanks . Cold morning, eh? It is isn't it? That's the main one. Aye. Oh yes. Aha. That's the only point I've got. Aye. I'm wanting one in the kitchen. Oh. The kitch there. Yeah. Somewhere about, aye. Somewhere there? Yeah. And then one up in the bedroom. Right. I'll show you that in the bedroom. I wonder where all the the went to? I know, I, I had it yesterday. Er, on the wall about there? Or somewhere over there. Right. There. Using this, phone on the wall? I use that one, aye. Alright. And then I'll get one of these for the kitchen. Certainly. Aha. Right. Right, I'll put your point in the photo. That's brilliant. Okay, then, then your phone'll be up there just beside you. That's great. So Good. where would you have it, about here? Just about there, aye. Just so as you can That'll be fine. reach it there. If it's too high you won't be able to reach it when you're That's right. Not too high. Somewhere about there? That's fine. Mhm. Where? Have you got the I have nay actually. Oh it doesn't matter, I'll miss a bit. Ah this is the one we've got. Aye. Usually, aha I don't know where I put it, I've had it somewhere. usually have a wee thing with it so that you That's right. just put it up on the wardrobe Aye. less than two holes. That's right. It's like a wee template with them. That's right. I think there was, but I did nay I'll, I'll measure it Yeah. That See if they're different . Okay. Good. Right, I'll let you get on then. I'll bring my things in and just have to, to keep wandering about for a minute That's brilliant! to see the the best way to get it up That's good. and if so, do you, which do you go for the Brilliant. which is through here, is that your bathroom? Erm, that's my my, my bathroom. Aye. Fetch the lead there go up to the kitchen do you think? Erm No. And so, you've got a bedroom here as well. Well that's another bathroom. Och! Another bathroom. Aye. Plenty of bathrooms. Plenty of bathrooms, aye. And my bathroom there. Aye. Do you wanna, do you wanna take that up? No. Mm mm. Right. Just see if we can Aha. See the kitchen's just down The kitchen's just there, aye. The kitchen's just there of course. It is, it's just there. Mhm. Mm. Mm. We'll see what's the best way? I'll let you get on with it then. And this a, this a bedroom as well? That's a bedroom, aye. Mhm. Aye. So that seems to be . Aha. This point Right. There's your point. And that's a bedroom here as well. Aye. Your point's just down It's just, aye, at the door as you come in. Just about level with me somewhere? No, it's a good bit No along? along a bit, aye. Aye, it was further on. Yeah. But just But level just that's right, aye. level along there. Right. Right. I'll just start. And your best bet for doing them a bit short, too much, too much. Yeah. That's great. Okay. Er, I'll let you get on then. Aha. I've left the door open. Aye. What I usually do is just take five minutes to decide the best way to Right. to run the cable Okay. for your extension Mhm. without Right. showing too much cable. Right. Aha. Okay? So, I'll bring my things in and think about it for a minute. Oh eh. See I could, I could just take it round the edge of your carpet, you know, just, if er, if you want me to, if you want me to I'll, I can lift the edge of your carpet and put it down onto the floor Mhm. Well, whatever you think. and put the carpet back Mhm. down. Or Mhm. I'll take this up there Mhm. and, you don't see that wee bit through there which would take you into that bedroom there Mhm. and then we could wind it away through go through the be that bedroom into your one Aha. and then just wall, a very, you know, just a very small hole just above this door Aha. and just bring it down to where you where you want it. Well that's fine. Whatever you think's best. That might be the best thing to do. Right, well that's fine then. Aye. Might be the best. Good. Right. I'll bring Can't wait! my things in. Whatever. we could do. Mm. Is this the wee phone you want in the kitchen? Yeah. Just a wee one. Aha. Right. Right, here's your coat. No I don't want it. You don't need it? Jacqueline leave the dog. Come on. Well, somebody's . Supposed to be a dog. Well if that's for certain. Aha. Well where are we going? The dentist the both of you. No I ! In here. I wonder what but mummy, I don't wanna go to, to the dentist! Well you'll have to go. Hi. I've got the dentist at eleven fifty. Round the corner? Thank you. Oh! Oh! Round the corner. Here. Well we've only been to the dentist here. Well you have to, have to sit here. Right, come on sit down and wait. I don't wanna sit and wait I don't care. here. Oh! but you just sit down. Go on. The girl asked that man a thing that he . Hello. Hello. Er, David and Jacqueline . That's, well okay. You've been before? The school dentist? Yes. At school. just after the school inspection. Yes. Alright. Have a seat for a minute. Okay. Okay? How did she know we're here? How do they know? Perhaps erm Maybe she . Jean. Aha. Aha. Oh! That's cos you think of No, I'm not, mum. Do nay worry so much about it, there's no point you doing it. Er, I could They all clapped really loud. Aha. I know. The clapped the same with me . I bet the whole school was there. Mm mm. The whole school. The one below this one , but his teeth are as white as Aha. But look at the one below. teeth, it's awfully . Mm? Which one? Where? Prevent a child losing his smile . Which one? Underneath. That one. Oh God! How many teeth has he got? Not very many by the look of it. Why couldn't have he told him? Cos he not er cleaned his teeth. But even if they, put him in a, put him on a poster why bother to ? To show you how horrible it is. Ma make you clean your teeth. What? Show you how horrible it is. How Well I don't want teeth like that. Well why was the boy pleased then to show his ugly teeth? Does it not do . Mhm. Look. I'm not very high. No. two teeth. I need some . There's not many left. There are so. Why don't you get them? Now, can I get you to fill in those two forms. They haven't been in for quite a while. Er No. Were you waiting for the school Yes. check up? Yes. That's right. There's been quite a change in the community dentist because we put Right. ourself, I'm in here one Saturday a week, one, one day a week, right? Right. Aha. And if you, if you've been coming here regularly I don't feel it's a ve a very good service anyway. But, furthermore, we don't send out recall I see, right. And they should, as well, be able to get everyone to attend their own dentist so that as you're registered with the doctors then you should with the dentist. Right. And that way, you get regularly informed and you get a for twenty four hours. Right. And all this sort of thing That's right. will make a difference. Mm. So that's why we haven't, we haven't been in touch with you at all No. cos, do you want this ? Yes. Well Yes. the weekend though. Okay. Have a look at this and I'll speak to you Right. Okay. about it later on. Do you go to the dentist locally? Aha. At Hill. At Hill? Mhm. I know they're excepting patients for checks there, because they sometimes say they're still busy That's right. so the last thing they want is extra children to come in. Who do you see there? Erm, erm Mr ? Mr Yeah Mr . Right. He's got red hair. That's Yes. right. Mhm. Okay. Mhm. Have a word with them the next time you're in Right. and see if you can take the children in. So that's why the checks are . Yes, really. Isn't it? That's why it was handy at the primary school. That's right. Well we won't Mhm. be taking the mobile but if you have problems and you find getting the children over to Hill is difficult, cos it's not always easy to . Mhm. Erm, do you get a half day off ? Friday Mhm. today. Right. Mm. You may be able to get them down today. But if you have problems do come back and see us, and if there's nothing Right. left. But if you don't wanna of course. No. And will you both come in together? Or do you want to come in separately? We'll come in together? Mm? We'll come in together. Right. Okay. Together. In you come. Right. On you go. Who's going to go first? I am. You're first. Mm. Oh. David! But er what was that you said love? Mm? What's this?? No. So you can get a tan and everything? No, talk that No. No? No way. Well that's another topic. Well that's That the . Except that. Aye,. Can't wait to see her! Does she hate me still? Aha. Er, no. See you later. Mm? Mm. Nobody. Yeah. No. Yeah,. Excuse me. I will approach Okay. this Debbie anyway. And tell you, and hear what is going on. Mummy, she . Oh he's, gonna get hooked on it. Probably have access to film. Yeah, I never give him . Oh he's done it up here, look. Yeah, but you never get the . Do you want tea? Aye. Mm? Is there no David here? Eh? I'm not time to wasting my time. Oh! Oh aye. ? Mm? Did he, did he give you lots on your, on your anniversary? Aye. he might of. Have you done your tables? No! Well go and do them. I want a biscuit. After you go and do your tables. Tt. Take them down in the kitchen and do them down there. Oh. Okay. I'll just do them through here. I'll sit through here. send these back. Put your pyjamas on. No here. No talking. Through the kitchen. I'll only get in the way. Oh you will. And you will. Did you, have you listened to yourself singing? You're pretty good. Very good like but she's worried me about that Aye. She's it's just Take the tape with you. Back in half an hour. Half an hour I'll be away. You'll be glad. I do nay get out there, it was gonna be half the time. I know. That's right. Right, so anyway, we've got as far as that and your everything seems alright eh? That's okay. Right. So it's quite simple there's no as far as my bit goes it is erm erm it's just really the as I say, the roof design's going to be used to design the roof for us. Er,struts and whatever just for strengthening. Mm. Erm it'll be basically the same shape as what you've seen in that. Mhm. Like that. Mhm. That'll be . Yeah, the roof. And that's quite a nice Yeah. shape isn't it? I was impressed by it. Aye, I quite like it myself. And er of course there'll be the, the obviously the strengtheners will come through cannot be divided up accordingly. Mm. Usually it's divided up to suit the the mi er tt, panels that's below. Right. Er,th these actually run in line. Mhm. Right? Say that one's in again, and er, er and that, it's cos you're, you're relying on that being the the support to, to support it. Okay? Mm. These, these are all erm laid for your reinforcements so that Right. they can carry the weight. It's, really th as I say, the design is all down to the size but it it's because of the snow fall that could go in, that can li th obviously because it's sloped like it cannae lie on it but Right. if it happens to give or here, and it does nay get away right Right. there are so many to think, obviously, at some point that they may cover up so again, that's where it's designed the Aha. this guy does it. Right. Just straight, that's his living he designs roofs Right. for, for this type of conservatory that we're paying, so that's why we have to rely on him to do it. Right. That's okay. Alright? I'll not worry about it then. Right. Good. I'll not worry Good. about any of it to be quite honest. Good. Mm. And that one goes there . I'll go and get . Mhm. I'll get the . As long as you've got I've got the . Right. That's about the ve the very last one. Well you're being professional. Ah well, I've been trying. It's just that you get asked and hoping that the roof can Who was that you said you were playing with? Erm I don't want to play here. Yeah. What are you talking about mum? You said it was Kelly. Ooh! But but Greig came along, and I said Oh that wee Greig? Mhm. Aye. And Ashley came along and got a foot stuck in . So we let Greig ask to play with Ashley. Mhm. And what was the rabbit biting the wee girl for? Why was she screaming? Cos she thought that me and Kelly were cleaning the rabbit Mhm. so Go wipe your hands. we met, we met Ashley with the rabbit Mhm. but you know what Ashley's like. No, I don't know what Ashley's like. What is Ashley like? Well Ashley is annoying! Is she? Ashley wants to do everything that the grown-ups do. Mhm. Er, er like a mum. And she wants to do the same things as us. What age is Ashley? , and she's five. Is she five? And she kept saying, do it, do this. So, she looked, and she wouldn't stop annoying us, so went away and then came back and er with erm, the rabbit Mhm. Go and shout David. Okay. David! Dinner ! We went inside, and she was screaming and jumping. And you see, they were, she was crying and everything and wanting out cos I think she thought the rabbit was gonna bite her. So I had to go out and let Ashley and Kelly out Ah yeah. And did it bite her? No. So, I hit the rabbit. I Oh do nay hit it! It'll bite you for hitting it. I went like that. I didn't actually and I picked the rabbit up twice, so many times it didn't bite me. Erm Oh then I heard erm Kelly screaming as well. Yeah. Cos she David! David! I'm putting my back. David ! Mum, can I have a ? Yeah. David! David ! Yeah. Yeah. Your hot dog's out. Is it? Come on, now. Okay? Well, well he came out when Kelly, when I, I'm behind her back, Ashley was screaming and shouting and screaming and shouting! So, Kelly screamed so she di A she didn't know what Ashley was screaming for. My goodness! And what was wee Greig saying? Oh he saying to Ashley . Two for me and that one for you. Mhm. Oh well. So you had a good time? Aha. And what were you doing in the woods? Going to the gang hut. The gang hut. Aha. Oh well. Oh! Enjoyed yourself? Yeah. That one's orange. Mm? That one's orange. No there's new bottle. Urgh! What is that ? And is these hot dogs. Mhm. Super. Are they nice? Don't know. What's this? No, no. Eat them up. They're to be eat away. If they're beautiful I can buy them again. Mm! Yes! Er, do you want to go under my bed? Mhm. And you're going down . I had a look when I was hoovering your bedroom. Oh! Did you see them? What did the teacher say about that other one? Says I'm . She says, well erm, erm what about ? And I was in the dark er You look at it in the dark? I looked, I looked at it in the dark I didn't know what I was staring So did you tell her that? Aha. So can you do it again? No. No? I've got another one. Oh right. So they're to go in th the wall in the classroom? Mhm. Is it? Mhm. I did the one in the dark and one in the . Oh well, that's nice. So what did you think of it? I think they're both excellent. Ha! Did you find out from Barry what time the dancing classes are? A erm, she said that she would . And th did you a did ask if her mum was gonna take you and bring you back? She said she'll bring us back . Right. Okay. What's David saying? I don't know. What is it David? I could nay see . Oh yeah! Mustard! Mm. Do you want mustard? No, he would nay like the mustard either. . Can you open it? Mhm. Please. Yeah well Ah! You're sl too slow David. She beat you to it. Aha. There you go. She was saying she was on a camcorder today. Camera what was on yesterday. She was in the woods at the gang hut. The gang hut. That's how she got black. Well they couldn't let me in, they had to go by the door. Cos she was mucky. I don't call it the gang hut any more. I bet I've still got the wounds. I call it the . It was nay there though. It was the one at Calder House. Oh. So I'll buy them again? Ah? You like that? Yes. What them ? Nice for a change. Aha. Can't you put the mustard out? No, cos dad might eat it. He won't . I wanna go . Mm. I had this. And what was Russell saying today about not getting one of the certificates? Erm he wasn't there. Was he not? He, he said to me, cos he goes , he said to me, how come your brother always went home with a certificate? Cos he wanted to call you as well. And what did you say? I laughed. And, and, and he didn't, he didn't even . Did you clap when David sung his song? Mhm. Mhm. It was a loud clap wasn't it? Mm. Got an ovation. A standing ovation? Mm. Well I don't care it was Dan who pushed her, and Dan was pushed round. She pushed you? What Oh for? no, it a single person. She pushed you! Why? Well, oh because I was standing in line Mhm. and Dan was o over the front pushed me and budged. Oh dear. Can I have more juice please? More juice? Surely. I'll get it for you. I'll fill it up with water. Thank you. You want more, or have you got enough there? Enough there. I see you like the tangerines . I'd like one. I have ta tangerines in our school. Mm. I had some tangerines. Did you have one as well? Mhm. I had two. You had two? How many did you have David? Four? Four? Anyway Mm! But I was there, he had but they never had one before that, and Barry had erm, erm does it all before you and erm cos I try and go up there swing like this. Cos Barry went? No. Did she not? Nope. Was Barry pleased to hear David singing her so a poem? Oh! And I said when I walked up the other day Aha. I said he and they won't, it's not their fault because I couldn't, I can't go up there was obviously singing a song, and another one singing a poem, so you won't know which one to believe. And you know what he said about the girls? Mhm. He had the one song and said cos I'm not gonna ask her to sing cos she might get embarrassed. And what girl was that? It was Lesley . But er er, just because I when they sing this song, this morning, cos Lesley told people like they're singing it . Mhm. She said it wasn't cos she has a low voice. Ooh ooh ooh! And then she heard them she was harassed. Who was? Lesley? No Miss . Why was she harassed? Cos she thought we were terrible. Who was this? Lesley? She thought Lesley was terrible? But Lesley says they won't ask her to sing it. You're joking! Is that what she said? Aha. Is that right David? That's not like Miss . But, mum Mhm. it's just that it would just that the time, sometimes you've got to have things on time and some people don't have . They rearranged the programme cos yous two had to go to the dentist. Did they? Well that's what Mr says to me. I'm glad I never won again then. I know that the people in the back were upset cos I didn't heard him. Why not? Well not even I could heard them I was in the second row. Oh I bet! Well I could hear him Jacqueline! and I was outside the door. And that was a stained Ah. glass window. That's right. I heard you. Do you wanna put your Well I did nay think you can hear him. Well I could hear him. I think anybody could hear me. Oh right! I can project my voice. You don't, I never even heard even. Mm mm. I've only heard me. Mum! How can you hear you? Yeah, Jacqueline did better than what she did. Mm? She done the performance on her own better than she did at the erm Did you think so? She had no actions in it. Did you not? Why did you not do any actions? Erm She just did this. You've hurt your finger man, you've paid to see me. You can just till I gave her special Did you Jackie? my story it turns out that And why did you not do your actions? is very deeply near Nobody else done them. But that's because, because they're stupid! They don't know how to do them. That's why nobody else done them. I'm not gonna be embarrassed! Jacqueline, don't be silly. Embarrassed. Acting's all about doing the actions. Never mind. You don't do actions when you, when you do my love is like a red rose. Then she's only eight. Whatever one. Mum, you should do. Barry went a got a, a rose Aye. Cos you were teaching her what to do. That's a poem she's doing. Oh my love is like a nice red rose. Oh my love is like a red,re , I'm not gonna get a red, red, rose and do it in a song! No. Have you ever seen that, anybody do the actions in a song before? Yeah, I have actually. Aye, you have but Have erm you finished your tea? not on a our love is like a red, red, rose. Yeah, I've finished that. Have you had enough? Yeah. Well I've finished, look at it! Jacqueline! There's nothing there is there? I'm just going out for a bit . Okay. Put the kettle on, eh? All have a cup of tea. Yeah. Before I go to my work. Mhm. Mum can you I've made more piece just that can er over there Mum and that's it. can you, can you go out look for some paper? Can you remember to look for paper for the Aye, I'll try and thing? look for the see if anybody's Just try and remember. an old record because erm you're wanting it. But, they're might be since he's cleaned up. Just depends, right? Mhm. Oh! What else am I looking for? Er a tape or something. I don't remember. Go on. Mm mm. your stickers up. That's right. Right. So what you gotta do tomorrow then? Gotta do the garden for you? Good. Right. I might sweep the path. Oh sweep the path, that's great! Good show. Good show. He's flying! Did you see the Escort? Mm? Did you see the Escort? It's gleaming isn't it? It is. Aye. Have a look at it. Super-duper! Mm. Took you a while though. How many buckets was that? Mm? How many buckets was that? A lot of buckets? What? You don't know how mucky it was. I do. I could see it. So you're wanting to go to that swimming class on Monday? Mhm. I'll keep the paper, right? You could have a look. Mm. Mum, no, I should invite Russell cos Russell's mum and dad were asking if I we if asking if I was going back to it. I said I might. Why did they ask that? I think that day that they gave me a lift home. When was that? it's for Russell. Russell was wanting to go back to swimming class. Well the last time he put you off it didn't he? Mm mm. Didn't he Jacqueline? Cos you were quite happy to go. Yeah. And but Well I could nay go there. Course you could. You've got Jacqueline. No. Jacqueline, put that down please. We will, when are we gonna get er clothes and the swimming fixed? Dad's got to do it tomorrow. . Where's the brush Jackie for my hair? Don't know. Go and look for it for me then? Oh mum! Maybe it's in the utility. I don't want to. Oh here it is. Got it. Got it. I like the hot dogs you got mum. I know, you were saying that. Do you I know. like them? Yeah. Main thing, get dad to take you to the library tomorrow cos your book's past its date. It don't matter does it? Well it does matter, you better take it back. How? Well let him take you around. Well the lady won't give me a Well you got to give it back some time, may as well get him to do it tomorrow when he's in. That'll save us on Monday if we've got swimming and that to go to. Aha. Mm. Try very hard to look. What? Cos I will, I'll try very hard I wanna get an album tomorrow. I'm trying to what is Well there? The twenty eighth, and twenty ninth. Right I will. Is there a twenty ninth and thirtieth? Right. Get the twenty eighth and twenty ninth as well then. Cos, there's not, I mean there might not be any. But I'll have a look I know, but er may as well have a look. If there is I'll bring them with her. If there's not, well I can't Aha. bring them. Is there any our music class? Nah. Nothing. Mm. Where's your top and your dressing What? gown? What? Where's your top and your dressing gown? That was your juice. Do you want tea, or just a drink of juice. Er, yeah okay. Just drink the juice? Aha. Right. I'll just ha have my tea myself. What was the rabbit like to you today? Was he vicious Okay. or Yeah. was he in a good mood? He sometimes kicks his legs when he doesn't know what I'm doing. He just kicks his legs. And what do you say to him? Do you just try and quiet him by are you soothing? What? Do you just sort of soothe him along? Mm mm. What do you say? I just give him a you know you give them you know on on his side A wee rub. a wee rub And a wee clap. Mhm. That's what I did. And he stops sometimes. You've just got to keep him a wee bit down. That's fine then. Good. And er one day, ages ago, ha! I was gonna do it then right, and Jackie says, no I want to clean the rabbi clean the hut out, I'll do the rabbit for you. So, I said erm okay Jackie, you can do the rabbit. Right. And I just went along with I went inside to get a cup of tea. And it's and Jackie's gonna do it, and she went away Ran away. away the gang hut, so I mean but she's a menace! Mhm. That's right. Jackie had had that all done and then I would have been in for my cup of tea. Mm, mm, I know. And that would have been a lot better than and then after that rabbit, I went and did the car. Mhm. Well that saves you tomorrow. Mhm. It was a dirty mess. What was? The car. I know. It's gleaming! Is it? I've never seen a blacker car in my life! I know, it was dirty. I've never seen anything like that in my life. He probably just run right through mud. Aye. He did. He put inches of ma mud about that thick. You'd think, I mean, some people may not make as much mess as that, you're just in, er like that in a car and the car's going brurgh urgh urgh! Aye, that's what he was doing. He'll just Yeah. go out through the mud. He doesn't really care if he gets it No. Because, you wash it for him. Oh do nay choke yourself now. That was, hurt your head off the off the windowsill today, didn't you? Yes . And bled your mouth? Mm. And now you're trying to choke yourself on a drink of juice . Not very kind to yourself are you? I nearly killed myself on my bike! Why, what did you do ? I skidded. Did you fall off? Not on the road like, but on the path. How did you manage that? I just did. You wanna be more careful. Nah. Do yourself an injury. And right out next to a big bucket and it went, ee, ya, like urgh! You got covered in, I saw you did. You had your tie dangling in it. And you know what else? Mm mm? Erm erm like I was rubbing it really hard Mhm. to try get all that mud off it Mhm. and er this window was muddy was everything, and a wee bit round my eye, and I was goi urgh urgh! You'll be glad of your shower then today? Mm mm. I hate all that muck and Mhm. mud from everywhere under the sun! I know. How come, how long I mean me and Rusty and that be cleaned it didn't we? I know. I know that. I think that's what it is. I know that. I mean we we did it beautiful and then er, and it was gleaming, then Then it was mucky. And now it's all muddy. Well that was just last Saturday. A week. Well not even a week, six days. I know. You had it as black as that by Monday though. What's in this? Just orange juice. Why, what's wrong? It's not. It is! I made it up myself. What d'ya think could be in it? Well like a sore head tablet in it. Oh . Can't imagine, I did nay, have a sore head tablet. Mm? I don't even have a sore head tablet . Well I don't think it matters what I think. It must have a taste to it. Right, I take i I take it, er Russell, I mean, Richard's started went and picked up a plate Mhm. and I took the sandwich over Mhm. and I eat it and I went, urgh! Yucky! Had mustard in it? And, anyway it and it, cos the them like a lot of that type of thing. Mhm. And Richard says but you've just picked that up so you'll eat it! I said I said,no, I can't eat that ! He says, well you better eat it David. You just picked it up, you don't need to pick up something and then eat it. And does he? Does he like mustard? Yes! He loves it! Does he? Disgusting isn't it? Well I don't like it either, but there you No! are. But people do like it. It's horrible. That's the tape and that for that mirror. Okay? Mm mm. Tape for what mirror? For the mirror. Oh! Right. Mhm. And the wee hook to put it up by. That's it there. Okay. You can leave that. Mm. Right here. Can you, can you speak in that telephone? Mhm. So when you have dinner cos you just go hello. That's right. It saves you running into the living room. I know, and if you're in the, the room we're in, we could run over to your room and go, hello! That's right. Cos the other day Dawn phoned and we never heard. Mhm. I know. Not if we're here. Hello.. Mhm. Oh. I didn't know. Mum. Mhm? See what I watched today? What? Fact of Life. Was it good? Mhm. I watched, it was only Candid Camera, I don't think that was that good. It was Was it not? It is okay. Jack. Oh! Tee tee. Oh well Mm mm. Did you pick up all the papers mummy? Oh well, there might, there might only be today's. I know, but I'll But if there's any more I'll bring them. I promise I will. Yes. Jacqueline, what are you doing? Did you brush your hair? No. I haven't got a brush. Besides, I don't wanna brush it. There's the brush there, I found it. Don't wanna brush hair, don't wanna brush hair, don't wanna brush it. Wa are you watching that film Jack? What You film is that? It's on right just now. I mean, what's it called? Go on, tell me it. It's a actually it's Urgh! Urgh! Don't be a 's on that! Only that ! Don't think so. Mm mm. Don't you! What you doing? I wanna write something? Jackie, stop this! And don't you alone! And you said you'd do rabbit today didn't you? There's a tear. I'm gonna get a bit too! That was you told. Well it didn't upset me. Mm? You know how Jacqueline is. Wha what was that erm receptionist saying about your school teacher today? Receptionist saying about my school teacher? Mhm. She was Oh! a Miss somebody Miss . Was she? I'm gonna call her that at school. Don't you dare! How? Not even, that'll be cheeky. And where does she come from, East Calder? And how does that lady know her? I don't know. I'll go up and ask her the next day. How did she know? What was she saying? What the conversation? She said, what's, well she sa she's in a right, I think West Calder cos I think Jackie told her. Right. So I like her I said. Mhm. Then she said she said to me erm so what teacher have you got? And I told her. Mhm. And, then asked her, and Jackie said Mrs . Mhm. Then she er, and the lady said sh is Mrs still there is she? Erm, er How does she know Mrs ? I don't know. Mhm. And then and then I, I sa what's your teacher David? And I said, Mrs . And she says, oh! And she suddenly knew her from somewhere. Mhm. And she said, is she still there too? And she seemed to call her, she was known as Mrs, Miss . Da da! There you are then. 's children. Eh? Were you just Mrs 's children? Tt. I don't know. Oh yeah! You do know. Erm Christopher's primary seven. A primary seven! Mhm. Is he as old as that? I thought he was wee, Christopher. No, Christopher is primary seven. Alright. And they have a one, they have another one and she's, just one year ahead of Jack. So she's in primary five? Aha. But she's And what's her name? Erm, Sarah. I think any anyway, cos I hear her talk about her. Mhm. So Christopher's in primary seven? And is he not into your drama? No. And Sarah, either? Nope? No, they play with a they play the brass instrument though. Do they? No, no, I don't know about Sarah or not. But Christopher does? Aha. Oh well, that's good. Erm and they stay in after school. Why? I don't know. Mrs and the two of them stay They must do their after class. homework. Aha. Where does she live about? Oh well, I don't know then, but I know she used to live in Spotter's Wood cos erm they showed that, you see, she showed her this thing, a dog license and that and it said like, the dog and it had the dog's history on it. Mhm. Like the dog's born er after, before that, and before that, and before that and it showed you all the owners and everything, right? And, it said on the thing someone in the Spotter's Wood, she lived in Spotter's Wood at one point, but she said that was an old house. Yeah, so they've moved somewhere else? So, I'm gonna ask her cos she, she probably thinks we're Mm mm. I know, but I thought you might have known. Nah. Right. Will you come up with me to clean my teeth? One of my mates might know. You can get your top. What? You can come upstairs and get your erm top. My erm Must be windy outside, that light's on. Come on then. Woo! Woo! Woo, woo! So I can get into the bath. Right. Mhm. Got it? Yeah. You've got, er, brush your teeth. How mu how often do you brush your teeth mum? As often as I can. So how o often's that usually? About three or four times. Three or four times a day? Mhm. But, I only usually do it twice. Well, that's adequate. Do you use both toothpastes? Just one. I u I, I usually use both of them. Colgate first. How much do you weigh mum? Oh, too much. I weigh six stone exactly now. Do you? Aha. Does that mean you've put on weight? Not necessarily lost it. How much? But it won't be far much over. Yeah. You won't have put on much weight. Right well Aha. Right Zoe. This budgie cleaned, eh Jacqueline? Are you not gonna put your ski pants on? No. Why not? They're gone. I think they're on the floor Jacqueline. I think you should go and put them on. Don't you? No! Why not? Because I don't want to. I want to go to my bed! Just now? Later. Well when you go to your bed that'll be you for the night, there'll be no getting back up again. Alright. Erm Mm? Nothing. So were they not back here after? Yep. They were? Well I've got a pencil. Pencil. So did you enjoy it? Yeah. What did they do? I don't know. And then to the cinema. You went to the cinema? Aha. They never did! Malcolm and Ross said they did. He's kidding you. Said that they went to some, to see the Addams Family. They did not! I know, I said that. But, yeah we did cos we'll all be there going to the cinema, but we couldn't get in. They did not go to the cinema! And and I see in two weeks. They did! Just kidding you on. What are we having cake for? Did she give you your fifty pence back? No, not yet. But she will give me this. And she Why sh is that what she said? Aha. She said that Here! Zoe! Stop biting! that I keep, tell Jackie that I'll ge I'll give, I'll give you your fifty pence tomorrow. Oh that's nice of her. Zoe! She's trying to bite me. What are these? Cakes. Yeah, but what kind? They're erm double shortbread. What did you buy double shortbread for? That's what it says. Mm. Oh. Who are they for? You can have one if you go and do your tables after that. You can just take that one. But I don't want to. Well you're not having one then. Why do I need to get my ski pants on? Cos I said it. Looks like, no, I don't normally . Well How's your seals doing now? Fine. And I'll do the butter. Has anybody fed the rabbit? Send David out to do it later. Remember mind. Mm. Nice and clean. Is it locked? Do you want a drink as well? What? Do you want a drink as well? Yes please. I can't really sit down cos David's . True. I know. That's the man. What man? Man in the conservatory? I wonder what now? Mm! What man?. Somebody not well? No. She's just had a bath and put her nightie on. That's my Tired. that's my survey. Can swap you places? Eh? Cos she's tired, so what can you do? How you gonna get to the, are we going out the Back door. or the door? Yeah. You got a back door? Ah. Let's hope it's all finished No way. Yeah. Ooh! Ooh! Ooh! Ooh! Ooh! In that, in in that in you know Favourite T V programme Neighbours. But look. Look here and it and it come here, over there my favourite one at the minute innit? Mhm. Yeah, I'll put Neighbours. Ha! Oh well. This is . The other ones are horrible. Doo da doo doo doo . What's in it? Mm. Nothing much. That. Ha? Mummy. Mummy. Who are you gonna go up with now then? If you went up. No, I don't know. Good enough. If you want it. You've dropped it. And she's just found out that he Read this one look. Mhm. Mm. I'm thinking of going out tonight, what do I do with my face ? Girl Mhm. chatting between her friend Mm. on the bus and they Do you know what, I think one of my feet must be longer than the other! Oh no Madeleine I'd say smaller if anything . Customer and a in a shoe shop keep up it . Visiting a supermarket after work, I was feeling a little jaded I was feeling a little ja until I came across a small display above bottles of castor oil,laxa suppositories and a well known laxative was a sign reduced for clearance ! Mm mm. Are they jokes? Mm mm. Very funny. Who's that then? Tt. Fergie. Fergie-Wergie. Maggie Thatcher. Mhm. I thought they, they were out by the time this book was published that er Maggie Thatcher was out, was, I mean this Er, no, by the time that Maggie Thatcher was Prime Minister this book was published and not so old pictures in. Nope. Nope. Just I'd have a picture of Neighbours people in it. Oh well. The tragic Cathy will never laugh again! The tragic Cath the tragic Cathy must never laugh again. There was nothing of the old Cath Cathy usually enjoying more of a good laugh, she was always happy and cheerful, then she fell victim to a rare diso disorder Let's read it. disorder which makes her frightened to so much as giggle, but break What did you get for your lunch? What did I have? I had chips Mhm. and I was gonna get pizza, but there wasn't, there wasn't any so I just got chips and sausage. And then I got a and a milk and a packet of crisps. Very good. So was it nice? Mhm. Did you enjoy it? Mm. Look! Urgh urgh! Mm mm mm! That is horrible! Yuk! Eh? I don't like . Owls. Are they owls? Mhm. Funny looking owls. That's cos they're babies. Oh. What's the dog mixed in for? That's mothering it. Why is it mothering it? Cos it must think it's an owl as well. Yeah. Jackie's been in there a while, has she not? I think she's getting with all them fillings out of the way. Well she's certainly getting a few. Why? Well she'll have no filling it's the hygienist. Mm. And I'm getting at the hygienist today? She's getting a . Oh! Mm. I'm gonna make some swaps mum. I haven't made a swap right. You know my wrestling, wrestling cards, Gavin's gonna give me some of his stickers and I'm gonna swap them for my wrestling cards and some of the stickers. That's what we always do. Oh well. I don't believe it can taste so buttery . Clover White. Da da, da da da da da da da, dee der da da da. Ding dee dee dee, dee, da dee dee diddle ee, dee diddle ee dee, dee dee da dee dee dee dee, dee dee dee dee dee dee, diddle er er . Look at that poster over there. The acid attack. What goes on inside our mouths. Some breakfast, chewing gum, a biscuit, and two sweets. Mhm. main meal, a biscuit, and a drink of Coke a, a sweet, and a tea, one bis a chocolate choc-ice and a what's that? It's a cake a choc ice or a cake and a biscuit . Dee, da da da da da ba doo ba doo ba ba ba . One filling leads to another. last ten minutes, and acid produces acid attacks . The decay which results lasts a lifetime. To prevent a child losing his smile. Had an accident? Broken your teeth? Your dentist can sa save your smile . How can he save your smile? Well, if you smile with a whole mouthful of rotten teeth you've not got a very nice smile have you? I mean, d'ya think that's a pretty smile? No. No way. Well there you are then. Point taken. You've broken your teeth? Your dentist can save your smile . But why's it saying that? Because, he can repair the broken bit by putting a false bit on. Ah! By building it up. Well that's terrible! That's disgusting! Mhm. Disgusting! Disgusting! I would just get the entire out and get a old one, an a, brand new one in. Oh I don't know. Cos then it wouldn't be yours would it? It wouldn't be mine, but it's better than having a could, why didn't you just get a little false tooth like the girl did? Well don't know. Maybe sh maybe he will. Look at that! That's terrible that picture! That shows you the proper way to fill, clean your teeth. So brush up your technique. Help prevent painful disease . The person who's getting their teeth cleaned is nay very nice teeth is it? Well what's wrong with them? They're a wee bit yucky! No, they're not, they're perfect. Hiya. The is that point the filaments of your brush towards the gum at the angle of . Aha. Your turn David. What? How did you get on? Well mum, what it wants is that I got this tooth This one? Aha. Mum, can I go and get, get this out? Go on then. There's a toilet over there. How did you get on? Fine. Well what have you decided? About what? About what you're doing for tomorrow? I'm doing speech . Right, well let's hear you then. Nah, I don't wanna do it. Oh, go on! Show me how you're going to do it. Go on. No Oh please! I've got a sore Why what did you do? It's, it's the skating I got with the boots Aha. went into me. Let's see. Look, you see th it's the sock Let me see. cut Right, bring it over here to have a look. There's patch onto this cut. Oh dear! Let me see, that's festered. Let me have a look. Bring it over here. Bring your leg What? over to, see that festered you'll . How? Cos it's festered. That was the boots that did that! Let me see, but it's all red and festering. Urgh! Should really give that a good steep in the bath. With a wee drop of that green Dettol Tell you what, I was cos it looks festerey. cos er, bits of the sock, you know, it all I know. cuts it in and Mhm. I know cut with your skates. Why do they dig into you there? I dunno. Right, are you gonna sh find me your poem then? Song. Song I mean Ah. Right, well it's here. And you have to do all the actions or else there's no point. The penguin? After the penguin. The penguin after. Okay. Right. Come on then. Erm No? You're not gonna do it. er oh yeah I'll Come on David! David, come on. Come on David ! Come on then, let's see you do it. Okay. Right. Come on David then! I don't want to. Tt! Come on. Don't be a spoilsport. Okay. I'm the other spaceman baby, I got feet. I got everything I need. I'm the other spaceman baby, I can fly, I'm a supersonic guy! I don't feel pleasure, I don't feel pain, if you wanna knock me down, I just get up again. I'm the other spaceman, I got hairs on my chest I never get depressed. I'm the other spaceman, I'm intelligent and keen know what I mean? I'm the other spaceman in the world, just second to none it's a lot fun! I never let my friends down, I've never made a boob. I'm a glossy magazine, and I've in the tube. I'm the other spaceman baby, here comes the twist I don't exist ! You've all jazzed it up awfully have you not? What? You've jazzed it up. I liked it when you did with a cute wee face. Go on do with a cutey face. Go on. I don't like it. These ladies aren't nay wanting you to do it all jazzed up. Er it was good! Well I think it's better like a baby. Do it the baby way. No. Ah, go on. I don't like doing it the baby way. Ah, don't do it like that, cos you look as if you're straining to do it. Better to do it cute. Mummy, I know what's best. I know what's best. You don't know the Oh well. in my back. Ha! Ha! Well what d'ya get at school today then? Mm? No. Nothing? Tt. Nothing much. How d'ya mean? Did you get maths when you back for the dentists? What? Did you get the maths? No? Nope. Well that's the man came and surveyed the site for the conservatory. There'll be another man coming. Don't know what he's to do. Just to come. Oh. Mhm. Erm why don't you like it like that? Well, it's alright, but, I preferred th the way you did it before. Ah? I'm the other spaceman Yes. baby But not quite as babyish. Well I can't do that now. Well that's how you done it before. I didn't. You did. You didn't do it like that. Ah but, it is a baby sound. It is not. It is a baby sound. I'm the other spaceman baby But I cannot do that mum. What was Russell saying? I dunno. Nothing? Got phoned up. Mm? He got phoned up by the other players? Did he? Is he going? He said to me when I, I came in late Mhm. he said to me I need a . And what did you say? Mm. I said, I phoned up me too. And is he going? Dunno. Is he? How? Just wondered. I'm gonna lose the part if you keep on telling me I've not gotta tell you to do anything, you do whatever you like. I'm never gonna, I'm never gonna learn learn it by concentrating on how I'm gonna do it, I'm just gonna have to sing it the way it is because I'm not gonna learn to do it am I? Well that's true. I would've prefer to get the mummy. Well let's hope you do. She'll have it with her. She always carries these things with her. How? I don't know how, she usually does. You won't know. Well you just need to ask her for a long of it anyway. Mm. Er Be early to bed tonight mind. No. You're going at Oh mum, stop using this eight o'clock so as you get a good rest. Right? There's no point in going tired. You're not gonna use that again for me are you? Mhm. I can sing it! It don't matter! Doesn't matter, you have to get to bed early to get a good sleep. Oh yeah! So you're gonna get rid of me early today. Yippee! No I just want Why mum? I just think you should have a good sleep. I'll go to bed the usual time. Eight o'clock. I don't wanna I'm not! You are! I said, I'm not! You can go up and get a bit of reading done in your bed at eight o'clock. Must be da you must be joking! I'm not joking, I'm serious! Tt! Wish I was going to my bed at eight o'clock. But mum Do that again yo will you leave us alone! You go to bed eight o'clock. You need the rest. I couldn't give a blooming damn ! I don't care. You want yo the rest. But I'm not ! You are. Now don't start, you've had Russell round and everything. Now we won't start. Shut up! I'm not going to Right. blooming bed at eight o'clock ! You'll go just now. You'll go just now if you don't stop. Be quiet you old bag! Right! That's it! I'm telling you now, come here to go upstairs now and get into your bed now! You won't even wait till eight o'clock! Right, get into your bed now! Right. We forgot to put it in last night anyway. Well it didn't, really didn't matter for last night cos I was at school. Okay. What did you do there? What was ? Oh! I'm tired . Yeah. You go you go over it with a brush. Well you got one in your hand. Wha tt! Silly me! Tired. Hot int it? It's ten, it's five past It's five to past. it's five to eight. I'm shivering. Ooh! It's cold. Here. You can say that again. Mhm. Hold that like that. Postman Pat, Postman Pat, Postman Pat and black and white cat . Wo ho ha ha oh oh ha ha. Early in the morning . Right. I laugh like a seal! Okay. Er,. Jackie, leave that alone! I, I just asked Peter. you to find that was, it was me that did it. Where's that key, key? Where you been But she's Jacqueline? Get something from the fridge. Oh er erm Er er! Mm mm. Well, tell dad to put the light off. Dad, put the light off. I've, once you're in bed. Oh right. Daddy put the light off. Right tell us what you've got for your lunch son. What d'ya get then David? Chips. Chips! And what did you get chips with? Pizza. Pizza? Right. So nothing, what else? Ha? Oh. That's good. And erm, tell us how did you get on at swimming today? Fine. Mhm. What were you doing? Our watermanship. Watermanship? Mhm. And what did you do, have to do for that? Swim. Aha. Mhm. do you not? Yeah. Swim for four minutes? Yeah. Mhm. Jackie . Tread water. What? Come here. Tread water? Mhm. And Did you have your wellingtons on? tread water and get bricks. And, dive under and get a brick. I can do that. But it's not called that. That's all you can do though Peter. Well well maybe. What was Russell, Russell saying today about being ? Hello!! What? What was Russell saying today about being ? He says, hi Jake! And I says, hi Jake. So is he coming it? Come on and see him. Mhm. What's my baby? Come on and keep going, this way No! you're stopping, why are you stopping in front of them for? You always ooh! Ah ah! Right, I've got a wee show for you right. Right? Now I want you to say, your name's Looby. That's it. That's ri that's his car Say hello ma I saw all the boys and girls today. Do I have to listen to him mum? Mm? It's that? Mhm. There were three upstairs. That's Michael. That's Michael. Yeah. Go get Daddy's coat for him. It's i it's in the Where is it? In the what? Out in the car. Oh sorry. Alright. On Monday, and we've got Gotta go. our football match against Hearts. Don't forget Michael. What was that? Daddy and Neil were going to the Daddy and Neil ! Is that where they were last night? Yeah. Was it ! Like ! match. Sort of landed with Hearts, Hearts lost three nil or something. Aye. They were squalor. okay? David. That's what Gary was saying. Too mean sent off. I will. Hurry up trouble, eh? Because one guy said that he'd never ever play. Firing my shoes in here? Pardon? I think you just fire my shoes in here anywhere! No I don't Can I have an apple ? Yes love. ! Why's everywhere you've cleared my shoes on. What are you smiling at? Cos it is funny. Mhm. ! See you later pal. See you later. Much later. Okay. Thank you. Have a good night. Got plenty of hard work dear I can assure you. Went out without his coat. It's in the car. Oh are are his keys in the car? Right. So the plan for the afternoon is, it's now five to four so if David goes out and tidies up the hut. And get changed first erm feed the rabbit. There's new food for that, dad got it today. Erm Jackie'll sweep the path and then mummy'll make the pizza and chips right? Mm. I'll finish off my woollen knitting make the pizza and chips, and then that'll be time for Dawn. Then you can have your and go out with Dawn. We're not going out. Well that'll probably be Dawn now. Mhm. Hello. Hello Russell. Aha. Aha . David! Russell! Oh mum! You've caught me . Sorry to keep you, and hold on. What was he wanting? Eh? What was he wanting then? David! Why is he running away? Oh I don't know, cos in a bad mood. How? I don't know. You've not got as well have you? Well it was okay, in the night, but this one, but the other one was absolutely aching. I know, cos you were crying. I know, look crying and it's still sore today. You must have got a wee since that. Mm. There, that's it, that should help it. A drop of milk. Ooh! Thank you. Mummy, can I ask you a personal question? Mhm. If what don't you buy with your ? Come on Jacqueline. Mm! I got you a wee ball of your wool for your mittens. Oh thanks! But you must up awful square with that. I know, that, I've already worked that one what mi these one here. Mine? Mhm. Is that my own wool? Mhm. All yours. Hey! We can I go and knit these here? Well, no you've got your work to do first. Oh! Oh! Gotta put this wool . Morning Jackie! Jackie! I'm gonna kill yo get these shoes off! Hello. Aha . The three piece suite's coming tomorrow. Who? The three piece suite! The three piece suite? Aha. What suite? The new suite's coming tomorrow. Tt! What you tutting at? David? David! I'm speaking to you! Mummy, well I want, trying to watch this. What was Russell wanting? He wanted to see, do you want a game which which I've already got it. Well if you hurry up it won't take you very long will it? I don't want to do it. Well we've all got things that we don't want to do haven't we? Yes, but I'm I think I'm gonna go drama class. Well I won't be paying for another lot of lessons for you at the drama class David because that's two weeks in a row you've been saying you've not gonna go. Aren't you going to do your bit of work please? Please? Will you? Oh! Tt! I might. Was that nice of me to get you that wool? Mm mm. I thought it was too. But not if it, but people Tt! keep saying, saying . It happens every da I go and say . I know. But you know what he's like. He's a wee pain isn't he? Mhm . I know. Ah! Mhm. Will you help with the the paint tonight? What can I do? Cos the new suite's coming tomorrow. Er, actually, it's about three weeks too early cos we haven't got the living room painted. We'll have to get the paint. Great! Mhm. Can you do this? I think we should go over just now. What? For what? To the paint shop. But I'm watching Teenage Hero Turtles. Well, what time do you want shot at? I'll tell you what we'll go over at half past four will it be finished by then? Yeah. Right. Okay. Can you do the for me? Long fingering of manuscript and I thought the fingering. I now it's putting it on I thought the long fingering of man should was a lovely expression Where was that, you said that? Isle of Isle of oh Isle of and they sh what she went on to say is erm I hope to redress this in the shortly in other words she's shortly going to but I must say I like the expression long fingering you know bloody idle you know. Mm. So you haven't got it back? No, no she said she's gonna redress the balance very shortly. Erm when I find my glasses I Now I've got to leave at three thirty. Okay well we'll Okay Kath, right. Erm let me just see if I've got a I made a whole page of notes here dunno whether any of its important. Erm I've got the Observer Ghost Story winners we can leave that for another week. Erm the talks erm Gillian Thornton is gonna speak to us on the 23rd of February just to remind you and I've actually prepared some notes on play writing which we can fit in some time during this sort of session. Erm homework I'm Come and sit down Janet. Ann Hello, Well let me just say quickly we're being recorded there's there's someone er who's gotta er a project organisation by the Oxford University Press who's interested in our spoken word Right and he's going to ask each of us to sign a a permission form in the end, because we have our we all own the copy right you know our own spoken word and er in order that this man can use what we actually speak today, is showing to want us individually to sign a form. I don't think there's any sort of danger in it it's it's in fact for use in constructing a dictionary really. Erm so it's they're really interested in our use of language. Erm I told you about that chap Michael Bell who wrote to me about using my book as play, I'll read you his letter some other week. Erm John's Dream the National Playwright's Network actually wrote back to me and said they're quite happy to read your plays for a fee erm but I intend to re-write that before I put it in er for a reading erm Oh,I I sent a poem called Pleasure to Woman's Weekly in June last year and I suspect they were actually planning to use it but they've had a New Year's clear-out and I got it back yesterday. Erm Foxes in the Garden with the R S P C A photos I had rejected yesterday as well, so that was a good day. Erm I brought in the old flurry tape,I 've I've taped I taped our when you've read my play for me, I erm I taped it and I made a copy for Dave I you know, erm Cybil makes a good effort in that so eventually I'll lend you the tape. Yeah that's eventually I'll lend you the tape for that erm we can pass it round. Erm Mr. Parish I mentioned, sorry your name is Jim? Jim Jim did you say? Jim and he's proposing to listen to the group today with the views to joining. Jim has written, like myself his background is in technical writing for a living and he's gotta particular interest in American writers and the use of American language er I gather. Right well I'll start today if you don't mind and we'll go round in the normal way erm when we come to Pat. Pat has got five thousand odd words to read to us, so if we can scoot round fairly quickly today. Well we'll leave him till last if he's got Yeah well that's, what I was like that yeah In other words you know you What I was Pat is five thousand words is really too bit a bite you know if you really want people to criticism off it, you wanna break it down into sort of two thousand word chapters really. I couldn't get to the first part again and yeah that's right Even though you you feel it's off your back you've written, you can still read it out I could go er that wouldn't be a bad idea, because part of it would make sense to finish. Yeah well if you like. Yeah. You know five thousand It is quite a lot to read I mean I read a short story last week. Two seven . It was Two Seven and that even seems quite long you know to That's right It's quite long in the reading five thousand is as Yeah as Cybil mentioned you know I mean if if we want to criticise your first ten words it comes a bit hard up to five thousand you know. something that makes sense to carry on Mm Okay Can I just mention that nobody's read that but you'll see the last sentence says that whatever you put on that tape the dictionary keep the copyright you see and that's all right when you're on conversations, but if you were to to read in an and it was a short story, if that's you know i if they reserve Very observant yes, yes but Jim makes the point he said that if if if when you sign a declaration you say Er yeah exclude your short story, otherwise it could mean on you know it could be taken out and sold somewhere and then in interest you would sell your own for selling your own word you know that could be a possibility. Well nobody's really saying in case when any of us sign it, we must sign excluding the written work yes, yes, yeah read out and if you exclude it, I think if all us do that the best thing is to read something we've already had published. Well I think it's something like that Oh, the one that keeps up to date and updates the Oxford English Yeah, I think Even so, I think as David says, it would probably be wise to exclude your exclude your written work. I mean by the piece I'm reading you today, I've already submitted to the B B C and if I sell it if it's something that's If if they they take it, then I've sold the copyright to the B B C and I'm not in a position to offer it to anybody else anyway erm So will the tape last for the whole two hours? Yes, apparently. B B C. Yes. I don't want any of your bad language Janet . Right well let me just surely . This this is I I I'll start off as I say I've I've written a covering letter to Bank and Mitchell of the B B C and I I thought I'd read you the letter as well, because the letter does what we've often said about setting the block plan. Erm I say I enclose a short story for your consideration. In this story the principal character is a grumpy old house with a malevolent sense of humour. It is newly occupied by a young couple. In the first conflict situation the house launches a minor attack on the wife whilst possibly saving the husband from real harm. The couple settle in. Minor conflicts occur with the couple trying to pacify her, this continues up to a black moment when the house relents and saves them and then I say and this is important I think when you write for a radio, I have marked one paragraph with red brackets. This paragraph is optional depending on the reading speed. Without it, my version occupied a few seconds under fifteen minutes. The play is written for a Hertfordshire accent or similar and then you know I enclose and I say return if you don't like it. Incidentally Janet, did your piece ever come back or erm Yes Oh, it's come back. Came back. Oh. Oh Was it the Black Dog? No, that came back after all that time erm,no this this was the call called The Birthday it was about a split in the future where she erm Oh yes was a little girl on her fifteenth birthday and has it it's like an M O T Certificate, only it's an M O L Certificate for life that you have to do after your sixty five. Well I sent it to the B B C, I sent it to Duncan but I also sent it to the the Lady a shorter version to the Lady their competition and I said their competition was gonna be on the eighteenth in their issue they would give the names of the of the winners, but I had looked in the Lady yesterday in Smiths and there was none of nothing about it, but I don't think I've won anyway because it said you'd be notified by post so. that they run late on Yes it does. I've had one away five months to but I I I No, but this has been published It's been published December the fourteenth and I haven't had my copy yet which was in Central England. Oh,Central England. Yes Yours was sent to sent on to the charity work. Oh, you did do it and I didn't. Very important. Right I'll read you this piece and you'll have to forgive my facsimile of a Herts. accent. Home sweet home my Roy Ramsay. We fell in love with the cottage at first sight. It was snowing the January day we moved in. The cottage was old and grumpy, she didn't make us welcome. Cottage means small house. This house was large and had four bedrooms. She didn't like her name, she didn't like anything. I was a young man, I was virile and vigorous. She didn't like me . I well remember our first night with the aid of father-in-law we spent a long day moving ourselves in. He was in a van and two estate cars we made many short journeys. We'd loaded and unloaded furniture, tools, books and crockery, the contents of house and garage, greenhouse, garden and shed. The cottage had solid brick walls, none of your modern self-insulating cavities. The ancient boiler had sat in sullen silence for ten days, a drifting cave under a mountain would have offered more comfort. The rooms were too chilly for the youngsters, so we left with mother-in-law. I bought some coal and lit the sulky boiler. Four hours later the cottage had allowed the temperature to rise a degree above freezing. We made a last cup of tea on the camping stove and retired midnight. We lay awake all night startled by strange sounds. We was too cold to sleep, to exhausted to search out extra blankets from unlabelled tea chests. Holding each other close we wondered if this was a senseless move from a tiny cosy semi. In the morning the fire was cold and the cottage once more below freezing, she burst a boiler. While I was making some tea there was a tremendous crash. Me wife screamed. I flew up the stairs to find a huge hole in the ceiling, at the foot of the bed covered with plaster and ice. Water ran from the hole. Of course at that time we didn't realise she'd done it on purpose. We had just finished finding the wife some dry clothes when there was an explosion downstairs. The camping stove had blown up. At least I was upstairs when it happened, no-one was hurt. We waited, tea-less all day for the gas man to connect the cooker. We had fish and chips from the local chippy for lunch, dinner and supper. The fire had a good appetite too in the cold, we burnt exactly one ton of anthracite in that freezing January. Life got back to normal, we picked up our bearings. The back of the house faces south, an avenue of giant elms and a few old oaks lay over that way. The house on our western side had been empty for years. It's back garden was a jungle. Among lots of small trees was seven fifty foot black it's front garden held two mighty elms. I loved the trees, but having this forest next door, made sure our garden only saw the sun as he moves from east to west early in the morning. The rest of the day we never saw him. We loved our home in the woods down in the lane. She didn't love us. Outside, the cottage walls were a horrible battleship grey, the woodwork was depression brown. The interior was dull and decrepit with lots of layers of ancient wallpaper. My wife and I loved a challenge in those days and we could see what it might become with hard work, but it was a real challenge, no mistake. We tackled the house bravely enough, we started with the childrens bedrooms. Next we did the kitchen and breakfast room where we fits an efficient gas boiler. We battles on in dining and sitting rooms. We found out that the sitting room had a timber panelled ceiling which had been papered over and given lots of coats of whitewash. Father-in-law and me soldiered six weeks to restore it looks now. We papered and painted two big bedrooms, bathroom and toilet. We installed bigger radiators everywhere we went. We began to win the temperature battle. Lastly, worst of all the landing hall and stairs, all those doors, all that white paint. Several times the cottage tried to throw me from the scuffle boards, one night she succeeded, I got a badly twisted ankle. I told her you won't defeat me. Next year my wife starts in earnest on the gardens, driving back to Blackberry and Elver, while I experiments with the outside colour scheme. All the walls I gives three coats of brilliant white stone paint, easier to say than to do. Black and white seemed a suitable work, the front door was painted long yellow. As I say, the back of the house faces south, the summer sun was on the upper frames all the time. He soon blistered the glass in black. With a fight the frames were changed to white and yellow which reflects the heat rather than absorb it. Time passed, we improved the house. I hoped she'd begin to feel grateful. We fitted new carpets, lamps and staircase. One summer I changed both sets of French windows for doors with Georgian frames. I give myself one hundred and twenty new panes to varnish round, who says we grows wiser as we grows old. The house grinned. The owner of the near-ruined house next door came and had his forest felled to sell the property. We gained a sunny outlook and some neighbours to enjoy. The house smiled. The let in some afternoon sun which burnt the still black paint on the front paint work. I saw what she'd been smiling at. We settled for yellow and white all round. The two boys shared a bedroom, the spare room was our office, the boys were six years apart in age. In a few years their needs were very different, the young one needed to be in bed and the older one wanted to play music with his friends. Then my wife had her brain wave. There was a wide space beside the staircase, the stairs rose up to the boys' bedroom wall, then turned left to join the landing. On the landing the first door on the left opened up a walk-in cupboard. Why not, my wife says, knock a hole through the boys' bedroom wall, pinch a three foot six strip off it and make a new landing passage and extend the walk-in cupboard, forward to take up the old landing and sideways to build a space out to the main part of the stairs. It was brilliant. When the work started the house was furious, she put every possible obstacle in the way of the builders and arranged for it to rain as soon as the slates come off. She made sure all the plumbing and wiring was in the path of progress. Every hole drilled in the walls met a stone, she blunted every tool. When everything was finished, the younger boy moved in. For weeks we bumped into strange doors whilst making our way to bathroom and toilet in the dark. The house chuckled. At last, to pacify her, we fitted a new bathroom. That magnificent cottage suite with gold- plated fittings should have pleased her. She showed no sign. To prevent her playing nasty tricks on us we had all the old lead and iron pipes taken out and the rust galvanised tanks replaced with trusty burst-proof fibreglass. We thickened up the insulation in the loft to deaden the midnight sound of her dropping chips of toil on our bedroom ceiling. At last, I thinks I seeks her problem. In the dead of night I crept down to the breakfast room, the nerve centre. Listen house I says, you are not a small house, the cottage never was suitable. We are going to change your name, we are going to call you the Wallering Remember Christopher Robin, his wise old house spelt his name Wal We're going to name you for the elms at the foot of the garden. In a fit of temper she arranged for all the surrounding elms to catch Dutch Elm Disease and quickly died. This drove out the tawny owls. She could be a nasty devil in those days. Suddenly I was struck down by an illness. When I was at me lowest me wife beat me, she excelled herself and managed magnificently when the family's happiness depended on it. I went blind in me right eye overnight. At first I could find no cause, I panicked, if I could go blind in one eye without a cause, perhaps I could go blind in the other. I could become a burden to me wife and family, not only that, if I couldn't pay the mortgage they might throw us out of the cottage. I started two schemes, first I increases the monthly payment on the mortgage, then I starts a separate savings account. Gradually the mortgage comes down and the savings goes up, but there's still a gap. Then, bugger I down dead if she didn't get me. I was painting the back of the house one Saturday, when she shook me off the ladder, I got a compound fracture on me left leg. Well, I'd had so much time on the sick, they put me on half pay. I couldn't pay the mortgage. Things got very black indeed. The bank was hard, they said they would foreclose if things didn't improve shortly. At last the house relented. As I lay in me bed each night, I heard an eerie, moaning sound from overhead. On the third night I woke the wife, she couldn't hear it. The boys never heard it either. When they was all out at work on Monday, I could stand it no longer, I pulled down the loft ladder and dragged meself up it, plaster and all. On Thursday, my brother Dick the doctor visits me. We did ya this copper kettle he asked, I've not seen that before. Oh, I've been hearing strange noises up in the loft lately and I got up there to see what it was. Do you remember, Granny used say copper kettles was lucky. Well I found an old brown paper parcel tucked right away in the corner where the noise was a- coming from, but I couldn't find what was making the noise, I opened the parcel and found this old kettle. All black it was, I spent two days cleaning it up. See, the kettle is copper and the stand is brass. Look, it's got a lovely little spirit stove underneath, it's got a boar hunt engraved right round the middle. Let me have a close look at it says Dick, putting on his glasses. Dick is my next youngest brother, he's been the village doctor round her for twenty years and a keen collector of antiques since he was married. I passed the kettle to him. He removes the lid and examines the whole thing closely. He hangs and hoars a bit then studies the trivet the smooth stove with its little lid on a chain. You've got a fine here he says. Don't you know a list of every time is marked W F S in a diamond. Yes, I did see that, I says. Does it mean anything important? Yes, I think it does he says. If I'm not mistaken, it means it was made by W F Smith of Stockton in about seventeen hundred. It was always an ornament, it was never meant to be used as an every day kettle. It would pay you to run this up to Sotheby's for evaluation, they've got a man there who specialises in things like this. Thanks Dick I says to him, taking it from him and passing the bottle, perhaps I will, I'd no idea it might be valuable, I just like copper and brass bits and pieces. Well of course you can guess the rest, I took it up and had it valued and then put in an auction. We got nine thousand five hundred for it. I bought did Dick a bottle of and paid off the mortgage. We're sitting pretty now. At last the house has made our peace with us and hangs on to her slates in the gardens. Having got the kettle was certainly lucky for me. The funny thing is I never heard that noise again. Fred Thomson has been reading Home Sweet Home by Roy Ramsay. . Yes it's struggle in accent Yeah,I I wrote the thing as you remember about eighteen months ago, but it had no conflict in it you know we're all the same and stories must have conflict, so I got the house to burst the ceiling on the wife Yes and then while he was upstairs seeing and helping his wife, then the the stove blew up downstairs, now that might have been the house saving from a real disaster whilst attacking his wife in a minor way, or it might have been pure coincidence. But er Hertfordshire where they the other the black moment you know th the bit where I I put in the bit where the he broke his leg and the mortgage was gonna be foreclosed on him I mean that builds up to the black moment which is a necessary part of the story and then he got out of it erm because the house relented and showed him where the copper kettle was that was worth the money. use the word black seems to be getting very black. There is consensus out there of some people who their self politically correct and they do not like the word There was a man being interviewed on tele the other night he said that these people are trying to destroy the English language by their I won't be changing it. How many words does that write It's I've I was telling David outside that I've absolutely butchered it and I it's erm two thousand one hundred and sixty. As I Two thousand one hundred and sixty now? Yeah. Oh. Why does it seem longer? T frankly, yes it did, but I mean you were reading it pretty well correctly the way they read I mean most of us read things I know I do myself, one reads things quicker than perhaps some would if we were reading them on a radio or something. Well I've been practising this. and erm if you listen to things on the radio they they have at the end of a sentence or at the end of some sentence quite a pause for a second before they go on Well as I've taped that I taped it at home Mm. but as I wrote this and you know put in the acc th the conflict, it came up to two thousand five hundred words and I taped it and timed it and I've been butchering it and cutting out all the really nice little sentences and the nice sentences and I've got it down to two one sixty and now with that announcement on the end,as I've got it taped, it's fourteen minutes fifty-nine seconds for a fifteen minute slot, so it's about as precise as you're gonna get it. Yes. Erm and I may have slowed down a little today, I don't know I should have timed it again. What It's fiction Kath stop worrying. I know. A kettle. There was one though on the Antique Road Show where there's erm er girl brought in a kettle and they've been using it just every day and it was pottery and it was actually to buy her her own house. Showed it the following week. Yeah well we've got a little antique box a jewellery box and it's embossed the pattern round it, and the pattern round it is a boar hunt and it's beautiful, there's a little boar galloping his heart out with horsemen after him with spears and he's all the way round the box and I thought of adding him on to the copper kettle you know as engraved all round the outside. I've got no idea of what it might fetch, but as I say it is fiction Kath, don't worry about it. No, I was just enthralled Absolutely. Well I was watching one of those Antique Road Shows quite recently and I found a chap got one of those little sort of two inch diameter one inch high chamber pots and he said and where did you get this and she said er at a car boot sale and he said and how much did you pay and she said twenty five P. He said well you're very lucky he said by my estimation that's worth four thousand pounds I was, I was thinking cos I've got an old copper kettle Right, well the time's passing we will have to push on. Have you got anything Peter? Yes. A certain no dialogue today or anything like that. This is one of my film articles which I mean it's of the things that I've sent of and I know it will be published because I belong to the Cinema Veterans cinema and television veterans and they have this quarterly magazine and almost certainly you know it will be published in there, there's no There's confidence that's what I like to see. Well I mean you don't get paid for it or anything. Oh. there's no money in it Oh well that's a bit of a letdown Peter. Yeah, no well. Did you send your other one in Yes, I have I posted it off during the week to My Weekly, because I thought because the it was about a girl in all trouble, I think it You're telling avoid that like perhaps appeals to womens magazines more than the other stuff but I know that I mean it's not romantic in that way is it's not a romance No. Oh Yes. This is Right Peter This is called the Men Who Called Action. In the past the British Film Industry has produced many great directors, Sir Reed, Michael Powell, David Lee to name but three. These top directors will not be forgotten in the future, for apart from their films, much has also been about them. At the same time as these directors were making their classy films, there were many other directors churning out the cinema of workmanlike entertaining pictures. It is to these directors many of whom the industry forgot in their later years that I wish to pay tribute. One such director was Maclean Rogers who was born in 1899. In the early thirties he was employed as an editor for Herbert Wilcox at British and Dominion Films at Elstree. It was at B and D in 1932 that he directed his first film, the Mayor's Nest starring Sydney Howard. He continued throughout the thirties making mostly low budget productions that were made to fulfil exhibitors quotas requirements. During the 1940s he directed many films for and British National. I envisage and this is what I believe to be his last film Not a Hope in Hell early in 1960. Although mainly a director of low budget productions, he told me that before the war he concerned it a poor year if he did not earn six thousand pounds, quite a sum for those days. The last time I saw him was at Walton Studios a few months before they closed down and the was he was doing he said he was unable to get a film to direct, so he was going to be Herbert Wilcox first assistant director on his forthcoming production. Unfortunately, this film was never made. Another director also born just before the turn of the century was John Harlow. In his early years he appeared in concert parties. He was also a musical performer and also acted on the dramatic stage. He entered the film industry in 1927 as an assistant director. Spellbound was the first film he directed in 1940. It was a low budget production but drew a certain amount of attention as it attempted to explore spiritualism. Derek Fowler was the leading actor. John Harlow directed a series of films for British National, but probably his biggest success was While I Live which featured the very popular music the Dream of . In the 1950s he was finding work hard to come by. In 1955 he was employed for one week by Douglas Fairbanks Limited at Elstree as a cover director, British cover director on a T V film that was being directed by an American. He spent the week sitting in an office at the studio where in the past he had directed at least six feature films. Ernest Morris born 1950 started in the business as a trainee on the construction side at Gainsborough's Lime Grove Studios. He later transferred to the production department as an assistant director. His opportunity to direct came from the Danzega Brothers He directed many of their T V series and second feature films. In 1961 they made their last T V series, Richard the Lionheart. Ernie directed all the thirty-nine half-hour episodes, just two second features without a break. He continued to direct films for Geof Parsons and others, but when the market for supporting films came to an end, he found it hard going. He would have been quite happy to have been employed as a production manager an or as an assistant director of which he was first class but the work did not come his way. He ended his li his work in life as a postman. Robert Asher, brother of camera man Jack Asher, was born in 1916. He entered the industry as an assistant director in 1934. Over the years he became one of the top first assistant directors in the country. He began directing in 1959 with Follow a Star, a Norman Wisdom film. It was a success and he went on to direct five mor Wisdom comedies. He also directed a Morecambe and Wise film and co-produced and directed with his brother, She'll Have a Go. He also directed a number of episodes of various T V series, but then the same old story, little work. He would also have been happy to have found work as a production manager or an assistant director. The last time I saw him was at Pine er was at on the as T V series at Pinewood, where he was acting second unit director. He was a very dispirited man. I will mention two other directors who sometimes made slightly higher budget films, Lance Comfort 1908 to 1967 his many films included and Temptation Harbour and Lawrence Huntingdon 1900 to 1967. His films include the Upturned Glass and the Franchise Affair. Both these directors fared much better than the other I have mentioned insomuch as they were working right up until their death. The directors I have mentioned I knew personally. There were many others of equal merit who deserve to be remembered, perhaps someone else would care to write about. I mean it's you know, it's just to to people in the film industry and obviously it has little interest reading it to There was one which you said Ernest Morris was born in 1950. Fifteen. Oh, fifteen. Yes. I thought he said fifty as well. Oh no, fifteen. I was gonna say you you s I thought you said 1950 and you said he was directing in 1961, you know I The ordinary cinema goer sees a lot of glamour in directing and producing and God knows what else, but you you really postman No, well he was he I knew him quite well because I lived in at that time when I w was on that T V series, I lived at Pinner. He also lived at Pinner and erm then the work dried up and he first of all he did work was a postman at Christmas time, you know just as a thing and then he started you know then he became full time you know. Were there no jobs sort of in between the director and the Well there were the jobs tha that I mentioned really, production manager or assistant director and now he would have been quite happy I know to have done those, because I remember talking about it you know er and he would have been very good at either of them, but erm er he he didn't get well he was a slightly abrasive man,he he he his erm I I think in a way erm he was a director who could who was not really a very good film director, he he could get things done very quickly and that's why he worked for bash, bash, bash getting through everything quickly. He didn't have much finesse to do the things but erm and I think he used to sh he although I I got on all right with him, but some of the people working on the floor like the wardrobe people and that he used to they used to dislike him because he was but I would but you do find s I think perhaps he was a bit unsure of himself because I don't think he was somebody who'd had a had a tremendous education, otherwise he probably wouldn't have gone in on the on the construction side which was being a chippy or something at Shepherds Bush and so you know you often find people like that they have a bit of a chip on their shoulders don't they you know, you know. Plus I learned that you know from from our group reading of my play the other week, I learned what the function of a director was because you know obviously I shouldn't have given you all your parts to read for a week to sort of work out what the inflection should have been. Yeah, because They've just given you a first read. You don't realise how many inflections are possible in one word and every important word the wrong inflection was used you know. I thought ah, now that's what a director sorts out, you know I mean that was that was er very useful. That Castle was that the story by A J Yeah. Yeah, a really good book that, I've got that at home. Right, Janet, your go. Oh she's got a B B C letter. Refusal oh yes. Er do y it's er printed, it's nothing er I enjoyed reading your material this is B B C. Mm. or you won't. I enjoyed reading your material, but after consideration I'm afraid to say that I cannot make use of short stories. We receive up to a hundred and forty week Oh. and while we do consider each one, cannot offer individual reports or criticisms of every script that arrives. Many of the stories selected for short story are from published collections established authors some are commissioned specifically for the slot. We do use new writers, but they have to compete with these other sources. Briefly the requirements for short story are for fictional narrative based er narrative based scripts of two thousand one hundred to two thousand three hundred words do not use a factual accounts or anything longer or shorter on this, nor can we consider 60 Writers Monthly No, no. Well I get it but I don't read it. something about a novel you know. Janet,Not what you write what you said B B C Yeah. Well it's, it's very much an , but I mean it's my ambition to break into it. you know. Yeah, but you know I mean you gotta keep Thi this really everything in life doesn't it Yeah or nearly everything. Yes. I mean if you're Yes, if you've got the right name If you've got the right name, if you've a a number of or something coming in to for a part and of of them you've seen on television and done a lot equally or as good or better, but you're gonna be go for that one probably. That's right. An and everything they be be architects or something, you're gonna pick one who's who who said well I did that building at London Airport or something like that. Next thing, next one I'll send in I'm gonna sign it anonymous because my name may dissuade you. Oh it's a shame because that piece was brilliant, I'm surprised they didn't take that was very good Yeah , I'm very surprised about that, I really thought,I I'm or I was but I really thought particularly the length of time that was away I was really sure that had got on to incidentally it's worth saying that the B B C re they do they use professional readers who make a report on every piece they receive and they file them. So if ever you read work apiece, and re-submit it, you must change the title because if if you send it in, they look up to see if they've seen that title before, if it was rejected before it will be rejected automatically. So if we do a work you must change the title. Do magazines do they same? I don't know. but certainly the B B C do It was It was Ralph was it? Yeah,I I've well that makes a change you know I mean some of my stuff's come back from them and I've wondered whether they've read it. Yes, I've noticed that with magazines, but this was erm sort of er you know. No, it looks as though Do you think Janet should send it to one of the other regions like Manchester or somewhere Why don't you, why don't you send it to erm let me see what's her name erm Gilligan Hush Gill Gillian yeah Gilligan Hush of Radio Manchester. They're very keen on new playwrights. Yeah, but not cockney accents. Yeah, well give it a try, give it a try. She tries all sorts of accents. I mean th there's a competition for a monologue for Wales, but who wants I mean Ah well, give it a go understand All these Well give it a go, I mean a monologue is a monologue, they're not saying a Welsh monologue are they? No. Well give it I didn't know that, I'm er Yeah they assess in Writers Monthly Oh well that or was it in erm perhaps it was in the that you got. Yes, Variety. Variety. You see the piece I just read is a monologue and if I'd known there was a competition for it I'd have sent it there rather than to Yeah and this is Writers er erm Magazine. Magazine, Writing Magazine Oh I don't have that one. Which is part of Writers erm Writers Weekly I would have thought, Writers News. Well Writers News. Oh, Writers News Yeah, the other one. Writers News. Which I might do when this er present year runs out. Well I buy Writers Monthly, but I never read the damn thing, you know, so I Well this is and I noticed erm sort of do my in this particular one, she said she's interested in North American Indians Oh. Yeah. and and she said something about through her interest in North American Indians she'd written this novel. She didn't say what it was or who published it or anything, but it made me you know think you know, so I wrote to her care of Writers something and erm asked her what's the name of it I would like to read it because I had also written something about the er American Indians and erm er who's the publisher or what's it called, I'd like to read it. I mentioned just about, and I got this this erm letter from her. Oh, good. It's erm letter of passed on to me by . I am pleased you're enjoying my series of articles on writing a novel, hope you gained something from the rest there should be seven in all. My interest in North Plains people in 1750 to 1850 which is about the same period for the you know cowboys goes back many years to my pre- writing days. The novel mentioned in the second article is a Winter Man Mills and Boon masquerade Really? Mm Oh well you know where to try then. Well I've ordered it at the library because they didn't have, they used to, but it's gone. Erm and as you will probably be able to deduce from the publisher, is a an historical romance. It was published in eighty six eighty seven, although it's no longer available in shops, it can still be obtained through the library service if you care to request it, which I have . I'm afraid I haven't a spare copy to forward to you even on a loan basis, one never allows for the contingencies which arise. . Regarding your own story you state that this is a fantasy, but you don't give details market juvenile, adult,fantasy, supernatural, horror. As a publish writer yourself I told her I've been published articles you will understand the need for market targeting and as you mention at twenty thousand words is not full-length, though this could be if was aimed at children. If it is your first work of fiction of any great length, I think you are doing the right thing putting it forward for appraisal by the Eastern Arts Board, you are lucky in your part of the country to have this . comments you could consider entering it or part of it in one of the many fiction competitions or submitting it in total to a which takes fiction. If it is your first work of fiction, you should also look at it as part of your groundwork which although it may never see the light of publication, is of great benefit to you as a writer. A brickie does not college N B Qs he needs to build his first house and first novel and immediately becoming an international best seller. Okay occasionally it happens, but I for one am a and I have the unpublishable manuscript in a drawer to prove it. I wish you well with your writing, remember talent is very useful and perseverance is a necessity. That's very good. Mm. Isn't it? Yeah, yeah. That's very nice of her to write that. I think erm what she's really saying to you is that writing's not an art, writing is a science, bloody hard work. Yes. You know getting on with it. Yes. See I didn't write asking sort of advice telling her No, that's very nice of her No, that's very good. So er That's very nice of her to write Yes. And is there anywhere now. Oh yeah, I see it yeah. Well when you said something like that, it's not just one person who's gonna have a look is there? Is it? So I mean you have to send one copy, unless they take the bother of the copy they have received may gone to somebody else. No. Yes. I mean what really your hope in looking after that is is they will come up with some idea of publishing. Well if it's publishable, they Oh that was she was supposed to come today, but she phoned up last week erm she is gonna come but I don't think that a date has been arranged yet. These are some of the extras standing around on Middlemarch. Oh. It was on wasn't it? Yes. Yeah, it was repeated or something. Oh, it's brilliant you know I mean er, I've I've telling him what I've doing this week. Yeah. I've erm nice photographs They are letter and I've read I look at the first enjoyed it I mean what the strange thing is that I was reading about The writers is that Middlemarch at the beginning, she did it in class Well a word processor is much much better to use because it's so easy to you've gotta change everything that follows, whereas you know, with a with a word processor you can add paragraphs about words in change words. A word processor is so much more power than a typewriter you wouldn't believe it. physiotherapy sort of exercises and that. Yeah, you've got to go what time? Three thirty. Okay, well do you mind if we take Kath No not at all. You lost them? You can borrow mine. Try mine no it's all right You put them in you Right. Right now Kath, you can start us off. You wanna Okay Janet You're on. Am I? with the glasses It's not in there. Help. Nobody's Did you drop them on the floor? Put them in your pocket? You read that last piece without glasses thinking about it. No no, you did have them on, no you did have them. Yeah you did have them. There's a pair on there. They're mine. leave the room. Can we erm can we let Ann have a go then. The ashtray yes Because the recorder's on. Well I don't know whether it's good enough for a recorder, but erm I I the ends a little bit because I was rushed to get her so Is this your er chapter of your story? No, it's a short story really. Oh, fine, fine, fine, good but it's it's not brilliant, I mean Art to regain his breath as he stepped through hang on a second what's the title? I'm sorry I didn't actually give it one. Now Ann I keep telling you. Oh yes I know, I'm sorry. Well shall I call it. A short story. Works. Spring and Autumn or something like that Art to regain his breath as he stepped through the swing doors into the ordered gloom. Shutting his eyes, he stopped and was there the one he always remembered from his childhood polish, dust, though not so much now as the smell of books. He paused at the counter struggling with the straps of his shopping bag as he laid his self-regulated three weekly books on the counter. She was new medium height, dark with a shiny fringe and big brown eyes. He caught his breath. Mary, no it couldn't be. Good Morning. She looked straight into his faded blue eyes as he slid his books towards her. The smile was exactly the same, but the voice was different, it had a soft fur, Devonshire was it? He couldn't be sure. Thank you he said absent-mindedly and went through to the Natural History. From here he could get a good view of the counter desk. Yes, she looked almost exactly the same, unbelievable. He picked up a huge book h he picked up a large book with a huge green dinosaur on the front. Strange he thought, there seems to be a current fad around about dinosaurs, there was one on top of a bottle of bath oil one of his grandsons had given to him for Christmas and another was perched on the handle of a nail brush in the bathroom. Toby had a pencil with a blue one on the end it its scaly tail curled around the pencil and the head was spiked down the neck could be used as a rubber. Odd looking things he said himself quietly. It all happened years ago, can't understand why they brought them up again now. Mrs Blick moving carefully around Natural History in search of something to help an earnest nine year-old with his holidays. He's on a holiday project her talking to himself. She smiled, over here is her remarks and hoping all was well. Morning Mrs Dear how are you? Fine Mrs. Blick, and yourself? Art nodded politely. He liked Mrs. Blick one of the old school, always addressed by name, a caring sort Good Morning Mrs B. Over the years their relationship has developed so that Art now called her Mrs B. He had once served at a library committee but that was when her husband was alive many years ago. Didn't know you were interested in dinosaurs she smiled gently teasing him. Their seem to be a lot around at the moment. Really, she laughed. Well you know what I mean knew very well and nodded. Did you enjoy your holiday with the family she asked gently, knowing that Art lived alone now and welcomed the invitations from his eldest son Toby and his wife Lynn. Yes thank you, it's great fun there and the two rascals have got these things everywhere he indicated the dust jacket where a green scaly monster grinned devouringly at both of them. It's pointed teeth remind him of some giant cheese grater with a mind of it's own, face smiling ready to strike. They were on the mantelpiece in the garden even in the bathroom. It was yo-yo's in my time yo-yo's and parasols. I always think a woman looks pretty good under a parasol, even better under a pretty hat, his eyes looked distant. Daphne laughed, I'll see you in a moment she said kindly. Art raised his eyes to the receiving desk, she was standing she was standing talking to a young man. My how like is Mary she looked so very pretty. The dinosaurs were spying as he replaced the book. He hadn't wanted to learn more about them, not really, ugly things after all and it was a long time ago. He moved into Fiction, checking his favourite thriller author. He always put a very tiny pencil mark on the end papers at the back of every book he read, his very own secret sign. He knew he ought not to mark the books really, but it was only a tiny mark in pencil and no-one could accuse him of defacing library property, not really, it wouldn't do for an ex-library committee member to be caught defacing library property now would it. Art has served his country town well this country town well, he lived he all his life all in a small cottage down by the river. He'd won a bursary to a local grammar school when he was eleven and then gone on to an apprenticeship with an engineering firm which employed a quarter of the town's local inhabitants. That has sadly gone now, another victim of the recession. Art had always tried to give back what he had gained in life, he felt grateful for what he felt he had to be given, some said he'd achieved a great deal, but in his heart he felt fate had dealt him with him gently and you have to make the most of the lo of the card life deals you. He as content and his worry was his younger son, if only he would settle down like Toby and Lynn, find a nice girl, make a home. Art checked his books, there were a lot of little marks on the end papers, other readers marking their patch no doubt, defiling narrative as dinosaurs have devoured other less fortunate in the past no doubt . He thought of them, somehow communicating to ea to each of the boroughs through their own little secret signs and realising their flight of fancy. He moved to the counter, you're new aren't you he said. My son's looking for a wife. He stopped, it wasn't his normal behaviour to speak to the staff in so familiar a way, after all he had his dignity. The girl blushed slightly and then laughed, well we're a public library, not a marriage bureau. He paused still looking at her. How like Mary she was, incredible. Out through the swing doors he made to the Rendezvous Coffee House. Daphne was already there at her regular table. I like the new girl he observed conversationally. Daphne studied the menu a new one, a friendly dinosaur snaked down the side holding the printed menu between its paws. Damn things keep cropping up everywhere Art observed conversationally. She's right nice, just qualified now to college, from Taunton you know, Daphne says steering the conversation in the way she wanted it to go. It's only here temporarily she's only here temporarily she added. Why has she come here for goodness sake Ar Art barked mentally choosing mushed up mushroom omelette and a roll of butter. What are you having. Grill grilled plaice Daphne said and coffee. The waitress appeared for their order, jacket sir she enquired as Art placed the order for both of them. Jacket potatoes, yes please Art replied. How's Steve, Daphne well knew the heartache Art's younger son caused him. As well as I'll ever know he replied gruffly. I'm retiring in a few months Daphne said quietly. Retiring, shouldn't have thought you were old enough, Art was brought up with a jolt. What will you do? I've decided to move. Really? Art was surprised. Where are you going? Taunton. Art could not speak, he had become so used to meeting Daphne for lunch once a week, it was part of his life, he felt shocked, strange, bereft. Taunton was where Steven lived, where the lovely young girl in library He looked across at Daphne, she was looking at him searchingly her eyes questioning. I'll be sixty five in two months time Art, it's time for a move, they'll be a lot of time on my hands. Sixty five burst out Art, I didn't think you were anything near that anywhere near that age. Well I am. Daphne's look was indecipherable. But that's not so far off as I am, I thought you were much younger than I. Blushed and took her hand she did not take it away. It puts a different light on things. Does it Art? Toby and Lynn live in Taunton Art observed and Steven's nearby Daphne added. Suddenly the future looked very bright indeed. There there you go announced the waitress setting two hot plates before them. Art winced at the vocabulary, it was a current phrase he most detested. Daphne chuckled as he gripped his hands. There you go she said. What time did you ring me? Well yes I know I tried to pick her up Well yes. This one describes at the end er you stumbled over yourself, she did not take er . her hand away you know, if you imagine she if you make it she didn't take her hand away Oh yes, yes. it'll be easier to say. Okay, fine. But otherwise Yes. it was only that you stumbled over it. Right. Very good. It was excellent. Oh, I always wonder about that, I never know whether it's correct I mean it certainly sounds better as you said, she didn't take her hand away, but I always find that when I'm writing something down, I'm torn, if it's dialogue I want to say they didn't, couldn't and all things come in. When you're writing it it you know Narrative. Narrative, I always wonder whether you should not or Well it depends on the context of the piece I think, I mean if you're dealing with fudd fuddy duddy old people you know who speak you know very precisely, then obviously you'd keep it the one. If you're talking about youngsters and in a modern i in then in fact abbreviations like that are quite commonly used now in narrative and dialogue and of course in dialogue I mean Well in dialogue it's fine, you can use almost any sort of a figure of speech, but with narrative it's it was always understood that the words would be spelled out more words would be spelled out more yes. and if you used abbreviation like he'd H E apostrophe D that was in that was allowable in the thought process. Yes As though you know erm after all head known all about it this is the to himself and by doing that then abbreviated then, that's when the reader was supposed to take it as a thought process rather than a Yeah. Er it was I the only thing that that brought it to mind was Ann herself stumbled over it as she said it you know playwright Well I wonder if it's I wonder if it's one of those things that I mean she's reading the story aloud, I wonder if you were reading that story as as well Yeah as well You read it very quickly and and it would almost he had it would be he'd or whatever it is that the word was you know that y you Yes, that doesn't flow does it. Yeah. Mm. Sorry I've got to go. Oh. Shame Are you going medical Are you going now? Yeah. I mean you'll come back What is this thing March I can't remember the exact date erm Can you get me the date round then? Yeah I will do. All . No, no. Er see you all. Okay, bye. Bye. Bye-bye. Cheerio. Bye. Bye Kath. How long did that take you Ann? Ten minutes. was it? I find that absolutely because you know my stories I can only write so much and then I stop and think about then and then I write some more. It's so difficult to add up the the hours, but I mean it's a number of days of course it's not working solidly you know, maybe only for an up an hour or an hour. Well once I've got you know once I've got the shape of the story in my mind I can it down in an hour or so every time you know it's in long hand, then it takes me hours to type it but er you know the actual once I've got the idea I I find it necessary to get it all down you know in long hand as quickly as possible. Right the other thing Ann you you really must get given you pieces of titles you know because that should steer you into it you know the title should be be the first peg you hang your hat on, that's the first thing. I suppose I could it Spring and to Taunton rather than Spring and Autumn Yes or something like that yeah Right, Cybil your go. Janet's found her glasses. Oh, sorry, Janet Okay Janet. Pass me over. Our great minds thought alike today. What's that? Well there's this David Thomas Charitable Trust in Writers News for a story of s between sixteen and eighteen hundred words with the theme Pride goes before a Fall. Oh yeah? So I whipped out something I've done eleven hundred words, re-wrote it and it's now seventeen hundred words about the house. Yeah? The inanimate objects have been breathed the life into by It's called For Sale. Elegant and impressive detached residence with large well-stocked garden running down to the river, said the card in the window of the village's estate agent. The house was indeed elegant and certainly impressive, but had an air of haughty arrogance. The passers by stopped to admire her from the large wrought iron gates at the bottom of the drive. She fluttered the strut all and above the windows like eyelashes and all three storeys brick style glowed with pride. The house had been empty for some time now and beginning to feel lonely. Prospective buyers had been shown around, but the house had quickly made up her mind that they were not suitable for such as she. She would know at once when the right people entered the from the moment she looked upon them at the top of the wide staircase. She longed for the time I've just got two in my gardeners. So far though the viewers had not been at all suitable. Some had children that are at an age where there might be a tendency towards vandalism, one of whom had been speedily dealt with by her when he attempted to slide down the oak bannister, kicking her as he went down. He was despatched off the end at great speed and the viewing had to end there and then. A fast exit to the hospital for that lot. She would have no with noevo riche either. not noevo it's nouveau Nouveau yeah Nouveau. I spelt it wrong that's why I spelt it Spanish Nouveau riche either. No here. They would probably knock her insides about to fit in a jacuzzi or the like, not to mention all-night parties and vulgar guests filling every room. No peace and quiet, what a thought. But then she would expl exude an atmosphere, the house could breath evil through her walls if she concentrated hard enough and the smiles would be wiped off the faces of those to whom money was no object. When one of these upstarts had the effrontery to kick her wood panelled walls in the study I put library in the to see if they were sound, she'd breath such venom through the wall, that his wife shuddered and pulled her fur coat tightly around her, hurrying out of the room saying I wouldn't sleep under this roof for a million. Yes, she would know when to use her charm and warmth, she would know how to use her will-power right vibes when they appear. In the meantime she would continue to give off the appropriate vibes to the unworthy. One more summer term to winter still the house had not looked upon anyone she saw as suitable enough to take on a satisfactory residence within her proud walls, if only she was. Virginia had crept up to her several times trying to be friendly, but each time the house repelled her advances, don't you dare to come near me with those nasty creepy little fingers she smiled, preventing the new young tendrils finding a hold on her walls. Poor Virginia finally collapsed upon herself and quietly died. The flowers of the garden mourned for Virginia Creeper, with nobody to restrain them the flowers had left their beds and were running riot. You've killed her they cried, how could you. How could people admire my form and grace, my naked splendour with that weed clinging and climbing all over me. Yuck, she doesn't even make flowers and even if she did, she should keep her place in the garden with you lot . The flowers were hurt by these words. What you be without us, they chorused. The house glared down on on them from her windows, I don't need you. Just you wait until somebody falls in love with me and comes to live here, then it will be off with your heads, your stupid nodding heads she snapped. As winter frost covered the sleeping flowers, the cold silent house was battered by wind and damp by driving rain. Soon the rain began to seep into a hole in the roof where the wind had obligingly removed a couple of slates. She was now damp and depressed, longing for spring to arrive and have someone to talk to again. A wandering tramp climbed into an unlocked ground floor window for a nights sleep out of the icy wind. But the house creaked her floor boards and rattled her windows, moaning with the wind till he picked up his bum and fled into the night shaking with fear as he imagined ghosts. One has one's pride said the house, let him sleep somewhere less grand, he's only a tramp. Eventually the house sensed a excitement of spring in the air, the earth was coming alive again with awakening green shoots peeping through, searching for the warm rays of sunshine. She felt her heart quicken as a car came up the drive and stopped in front of her. This looks promising, a sleek chauffeur driven car. She perked up now. The men that stepped out of the car looked suitable enough at first glance. They stood looking up at her. At last she sighed happily at such a class. She knew she wasn't looking her best at the moment, but they looked the type to know quality when they saw it she thought, as she fluttered he awnings at them, colourless now, tattered and torn by the wind. The men turned and entered her paint-peeled front door. She was bursting with pride and excitement warm and friendly atmosphere as the men wandered from room to room, listening the agent stressing the possibilities of the property. Where are you all off too? We're all running down to the river like you said, they may not find us down there. Tell the others when they awake and they can follow us. Goodbye house. Seeing there was an empty space where the flowers had been Oh dear me, who can I talk to now, I've been abandoned, left in the lurch, not even a bird to talk to or call my friend. Birds have long since given up trying to nest in her eaves. The space where the flowers had been soon became a thriving mass of weeds. Ivy was the first to reach her walls, unlike little Virginia she wasn't having any nonsense from the proud house. Ivy crept slowly up the walls before the house had even noticed she was there. The nettles were bolder, they bravely marched right up to her very door bringing their friends the docks with them. Soon the dandelions came, all they cared about was blooming, getting their white clocks and blowing their babies far away. They ignored the threats of the house and from everything else, it was just a place to grow. Just you wait and see what's going to happen to you said the bewildered house, weed killer for the lot of you that's what. My people will soon be moving in here. After a few months of wrestling unsuccessfully with the strong weeds, the house was delighted to see activity in the grounds. Men and machinery arrived with a great deal of noise and bustle. They've started to restore my beauty at last she signed with relief. Well dressed men were once again looking up at her, there was also some scruffy ones she noticed, but decided to ignore them. She drew herself up and began fluttering her ragged eyelashes, like an old actress living in her past glory. So intent was she on making a good impression, she failed to see a crane coming towards her. A great shudder went through the old house, as with a sickening crunch the weight hit her front wall. With a gasp of pain and surprise she doubled up. The elegant impressive residence fought to retain her dignity and slowly collapsed upon herself. There was a groan, a sign and then silence. The old houses give you the creeps don't they Bill? Yeah, did you hear that noise hey? Makes you feel like a murderer sometimes this job don't it? Yeah, gives you the willies. Come on then, let's get the rest of it down before we start going daft. Before they could start again there was a sound of breaking glass. One of the young labourers had thrown a brick through a window, the part of the house still standing. Oih you can pack that lark in, Bill was furious. The young lad looked up at them and laughed, what's up with you it's gotta come down innit? Yeah, but give the old girl a bit of respect son. The boy tipped back his yellow helmet and scratched his head. You've been in this job too long mate, you're going senile. Bill laughed, come on Harry let's get this lot down. They hesitated, looked at each other a bit sheepishly and Bill songed away Just a Little Less Harder Than Before. You had about half a dozen endings there. Did you notice that, you could of you could have ended about you know the last the last six sentences, you could have ended I know I could of there wasn't enough words. N, it's very good Yeah, heard it before you know. Very good, you've heard that it was eleven hundred words, I spoke six hundred Ah. That's very good. So I've added it in the middle, rather than at the end. Yeah, I say, it doesn't, doesn't stick at you, where you or anything. No. No. or where you've put them in, it's flowed still. Yeah, I just pu put in the house prospective buyers rather than just saying What are you doing with it there's a competition for what, for a monologue? No, no it's a it's for erm on er er on the theme of Pride Of Pride before a Fall Pride before a Fall . Oh, yes. Oh, it's really good, yeah it's really good, yeah. So I've left that out. That's excellent yeah, oh yeah. Then I thought oh,that as it is and was eleven hundred words like with no No, you should in a chance with that, that's really good I thought. Most of it I bunged it back together last page Janet Then I re-thought about it and thought oh, I might as well have a go. I think it's very original Yeah really worth the try that, it's really good. Well it's five hundred pounds, so it's worth a try . Oh well. Right. if anyone's interested there's another coming out on marriage, so if you want to write a poem, send it off. No, erm poetry now, bringing out another book so Oh I see got the other one on marriage. Oh I see, on marriage. It's on marriage now, but I've only got the one application form. You can or you may even be able to ring them up and say . That came with my magazine. Right. I've got it. Yes. I'm just going to read one that's already been published and it doesn't matter if I read it again. Bag Lady I don't mind . The Bag Lady, there's a strange cardboard city the length of the Strand, with people extending or begging hand. For a cup full of tea or a small can of coke, picking up dog ends to get a cheap smoke. The businessmen rushing for trains everyday would throw down some coins where these poor wretches lay. The hand-outs were vital to get them a bite, to help them survive in their pitiful plight. Betsy was lucky she had many friends who relished her company by Old Father Thames, where they all congregated when evening came round, cuddling in clusters all over the ground. Several milk crates of the plastic design will be turned upside down facing a line. For they soon simulated a luxury bed where Betsy could happily place her forehead. Sometimes old Betsy would wander the parks, as hungry for bread as the pigeons and larks, she's scavenge through each of the large litter bins, or anything left in packets or tins. Wherever she went she carried her bag with her personal belongings down to every last rag. A bit of a burden, but she treasured it all, he wealthy possessions screwed up in a ball. In the summer the scene as the sun slowly sank, gave reflections in pink from the long river bank. And the drop-outs enjoying the lovely warm season, when asked why they stay there said this was the reason. But winter was hell with the temperature low and strong winds and rain and occasionally snow. They try to keep warm these tramps and old hags, with the lucky ones owning their own sleeping bags. One morning a policeman while out on his beat, examined some rubbish from which poked two feet. The body inside it was frozen he saw, poor Betsy would wander the city no more. That was in the Poetry published. Yes. That's my lot. Are you sending this again to the No, it's already published, but if it's gonna be Sign away your copyright, I don't care, cos I've already had it published. Dos it erm did you is that in our anthology as well? No, that is in just the Yes Yes. Yes. That was all. Don't look at me. Oh! I haven't done it, well I haven't done any, I have done some, Oh. Because Do you con will you continue that story that I listened to a week before cos I wasn't here last week Yes,I I haven't I I did half er sort of half finished it. I really must finish the rest of it which I haven't done at the moment, because I've been doing other things. Right. We're gonna get on with the Yeah, come on who's next, Sorry, no I was miles away, you've you've not you've not done any more? I haven't brought it with me. Oh, well. plenty of writing that, how many pages is that? four four thousand Er two hundred. Two hundred. Nine hundred and sixty seven words that takes about five or six minutes to read it if I can read it in this light. Hang on let me join Yes How's that, that better? That's all right. Call this er a Waste of Life. Oh that's me. The court room at the Old Bailey was hushed dock went in for the jury to return for their verdict. They had been out all morning considering the case. A statement charged with murder the trial having lasted five days. Waiting seemed endless, he was sure that a guilty verdict would be returned. Although the evidence was purely circumstantial, he knew that he had committed this the gravest of crimes. His past life went prosecution of the defence . He had been in trouble for the most part of his life, the eldest of the poor working class family of seven children, he had always been the black sheep. Until he was seven his life at home though poverty stricken had not been too bad. However, at the numbers of the family increased he was more than often ignored. John started getting into trouble at the age of nine stealing from shops. Visits to school were few and far between and it was not long before his parents washed their hands of him. Soon he landed in the juvenile court and was placed into care Hello, hello. What's this thing for? Why's it here? No, well what is it here? I don't know Just don't talk right. Hello. recording now. What's going on? Well we're actually recording. Yeah right. The lesson is being recorded . Tha that gentleman's just on the table for me and er the lesson is being recorded. We're not sure why research Right, so I'm going to carry on with anyway and we're going to start by looking at pages forty two and forty three, forty two and as you can see the units is entitled Shouldn't Do it to a Dog. and if you look in the blue box, bottom left to begin with it says this chapter looks at the way in which human beings treat animals. We have immense power over nature, do we use it responsibly? What would animals say about us if they could speak, what would they do to us if they have the chance? There are suggestions talking and writing after each item. Well it so happens that I did intend you to do a paramount of talking this afternoon, so it's quite convenient in a way that we are being recorded. First of all I'd just like you to have a look at the well what there is on pages forty two and three some of there are cartoons, photographs, adverts just have a quick look at them, six altogether. Now the instructions are in the box, the white box bottom right on page forty three. The visuals on these two pages were chosen to illustrate different aspects of the relationship between animals and people and you are asked to talk about these issues. Number one what is the point being made in each one point, even if it's a cartoon that there will be a point of some sort. Number two, which do you think is the most striking and why, the choice there, you might not agree with the person next to you, but it doesn't matter, discuss it. Number three, do you think any of them is in bad taste, if so what are your reasons? Bad taste, do you, do you really rather disapprove anything that it is in any of them, do you think it inappropriate, not on, is there something in bad taste? And number four, if you had to have two or three images to this collage, what would you choose and why? Do you know that word collage? Any offers? How would you describe collage? pieces together to make a picture. Right, erm, very often it's to do with making up a painting or a picture of some a picture of some kind isn't it, sticking different bits together, so if you get a, a collection of different things which makes a whole, whole with a w right. So, erm you might not get on to number four, if you do, or I tell you to start, can you think of two or three images to add to it which would, which would fit in with the others. See you just start off by going through them one by one and consider what point is being made in each and those of you who'd like just to move round and join these two ladies . I'll give you about five minutes on that, starting now. Now, what is the point being made in, in each case? We'll, we'll start with a fairly straightforward one, the National Anti-vivisection Society advert. What do you understand by anti- vivisection first of all? That's right yes, er vivisection is erm well actually to do with the cutting up of animals isn't it, testing, things like cosmetics,medicine medicines and so on, on animals and if you're anti to be that you're against it. So what would you say was the point of the advert? Rachael? Right,it it's really just expressing disapproval of the idea on this sort of testing isn't it. Did you want to say something Evelyn? It's all right saying, it's all right for like the mothers of the animals wouldn't like if their children were killed and your children were killed you wouldn't like that. Yes,it 's it's presenting the points of view in quite erm erm a dramatic way, isn't it. It says erm the law still allows to squirt weedkiller in a baby's eyes, inject it with poison, grow cancers on its back, burn its skin off, expose it to radiation and eventually kill it, in unreliable experiments. Then there's a gap before it's no longer it's only an animal. So what in fashion are you given it Claire? make way of an animals like a human being . You're that's right you 're you're giving the impression that it's about a human being then it turns out to be about an animal, now come back to the question what point is being made? But, in brackets but perhaps you shouldn't. Erm yes,i it's er very much er erm an advert which is trying to discourage the deception. Now, what about the other two on that page? Did you get anywhere with what point is being made in cartoons Yes. Erm, what do you call that? Sarcasm exactly. fantastic parrot and it costs an arm and a leg. Catherine? Yeah,i it it's based almost you kn you know what I mean by cliche? Based on the idea of a cliche, an often repeated phrase isn't it oh it cost me an arm and a leg, erm which isn't meant to be taken literally. Obviously when when you say it is, just means well means what Lawrence? I if I say it cost you an arm and a leg? Yeah, cost me a lot, cost me a great deal of money. That's right. So it's erm I suppose part of the humour lies in taking the metaphorical to the literal isn't it. When you say it cost me an arm and a leg, you're thinking in word pictures if you like it's a metaphor and er in the in the picture it's by the er Long John by the Long John Silver figure having not only one leg, but also one arm as well. Ruins it doesn't it, a cartoon when you, when you analyse it like that I think. One of the problems with humour is you've got to make an immediate impact sometimes if you try to analyse it into too much detail, it spoils it. Anyway we might as well go ahead and spoil the other one now. What did you make of that one? I felt a bit sorry for him after I shot his elephant . shot an elephant Right, no it it's all right to stuff the elephant, but but we thought we'd better not stop the human being as well. Nicholas? Erm it's like if you shoot an animal it'll effect people the people the person who owns it or actually round it, it effects people as well as the animals. Good point, yes. Any anything else on the elephant one? Right, what about the top one on page forty three? Any thoughts on that one? Describe what you see there. It's like a dead small dog that's been A dead small dog that's been all dressed up and everything. There's a really big dog there because you can see its legs and we can see some human legs, or at least boots. Right. Something to do with sizes and everything. Does that strike a chord Michael? No. People so we're we'll almost as if it's like a lady and look after it so that it won't get old and have nasty sneezes, that sort of idea. Yes I I'm I I'm deliberately using that that sort of language because I think I think that that is the suggestion in the future. Any other ideas that anybody had about the little dog? Can I Can I anticipate what er we might say in the bad taste bit then, did anybody think one was in in bad taste? No? Was no concern one way or the other? Do you it's all to do with I suppose whether you whether you approve of dressing dogs up in little coats and I know this one doesn't have a coat or does it? It does, does it? So it's got its coat on as well probably matching the hat. So what's your what's your reaction to the to the picture then? Edward? dress a dog up for your own amusement if that's what it's for. You think it's for the amusement for the benefit of the owner rather than the dog, quite an interesting point. David? Pardon? James, ah. James the First. You know like er I thought it was the name of the dog, sorry yeah. It's er a comment on the inability of some people right,t to distinguish to the human of animals of perhaps suggesting that humans are really more important. that humans are more important, but some people think of animals as being more important. You know there's a lot more moneys given to the R S P Cs R S P C A than the N S P C C people and so on same sort of ideas. Yes, right. was suggesting that er this person might not be able to have any children of her own and is therefore turning the the little dog into a kind of child. Right, what about the beware of the dog one? The voice? Correct. Oh, I see dog, dog strikes back, dog takes charge, dog bites man, no . Yes, Sarah? It could be that they're just classing the dog as a member of the family, so they do really. It's just a member of the family though is it? No, part of the family's, a big part of the family cos they to only getting the man getting very cross about it. I mean if it was me being dog, but. Right. Thank you, Russ? The dog sided with the wife against the man. Yes. There is erm a chap down our road had a had a huge dog and when he when he took it for a walk, you know he used to he used to stagger along with him and my wife used to say there he goes again, the do what was it she used to say, the dog's taking the man for a walk again and it i do you think it's that sort of idea you know that in some households th the dog takes over from the er sort of central figure, even the dominant figure, things hinge round the dog, you know the holiday what shall we do with the dog, pouring down with rain but the dog has to go out for its walk and somebody has to take it. Tha that's how from it, but certainly er the dog has sided with the woman and thrown the man out rather than the other way round. and the other cartoon, the final one with the the is a bit more straightforward, we're talking about Claire? Yes, erm tha that's that's an explanation really of what is in the picture and somebody comments on it in in in order to suggest what the point being made is. Naomi? you have to kill the animal That's right. Erm I, I, I think there's an erm an imply of suggesting disapproval of the ivory trade er in in the cartoon. Let's move on to the er to the third question there, just any quick points that anybody wants to make erm not necessarily things you talked about, something that occurs to you know perhaps. Do you think that any of them any of those six were in bade taste you know not not really not really very pleasant shall we say? What about if I suggested to you that some people would think that being anti-vivisection was in bad taste, how would you answer the point? Do you agree at all Sarah, or would you There's a tiny baby in the photo. Oh Sarah is suggesting disapproval because because of what the baby in the photo if you like would be subjected to like a photograph album. Yes, fair enough. What were you going to say Catherine? You've forgotten. Yeah, we'll come ba I'll come back to you if you remember. Any other points about the vivisection one? What about the little dog oh, sorry Russ. The end, the end justifies the means, you know that phrase. Well you do know th th that you're saying that they want to make a particular point strongly and er that that might involve erm an elephant in of bad taste in order to make it striking and to make people look at it and think about it. Erm, I'll just check with Catherine whether the thought's come back. No? Lost forever? Right. Naomi? Erm I just want to say if if it was an animal who was like chained up, would it still be in bad taste . rhetorical question is, you know is it is that a question you wanted to try to answer or are you erm Yeah, just any any any thoughts on that? Erm it has been suggested I think Naomi's saying on this side of the room that if there is an element of bad taste because the baby is chained up or whatever and it's in er has had to be placed in an undignified or uncomfortable position in order to be photographed and Naomi's question . Naomi's question is would it be also would it also be in bad taste if an a if that were a picture of an animal subjected to a sort of humiliation? Any points? Would it be the same worse less bad? What do you think? Katrina? About the same? Do you want to answer your own question before we move on Erm Naomi? I don I sir I don't think it's really in bad taste and I know it's terrible but it's it's gotta it's out there to prove the point and it is the only way to prove it the revealing that is erm And it's really to make people to attract peoples' attention and to make them think about these issues. After all it is the one out of the six that we've spent on might be significant in itself. Let's move on, forty four and five. On page forty four called the Newcomer. There's something new in the river the fish said as it swam. It's got no scales, no fins, no gills, it ignores the impossible . There's something new in the trees I heard a bloated thrush sing. It's got no beak, no jaws and no feathers, not even the ghost of a wing. There's something new in the warren said the rabbit to the doe, it's got no fur, no eyes and no claws, yet digs deeper than we dare go. There's something new in the nest said the snow bright polar bear, I saw its shadow on a glacier as it had left no paw marks there. Through the animal kingdom the news was spreading fast. No beak, no claws, no feathers, no scales, no fur, no gills. Lives in the trees and the water, in the soil and the snow and the hills, and he kills and he kills and he kills. I'll give you a few minutes again just to consider these questions. One, why is it so important for the newcomer. Two erm can you think of an alternative title tell us what it is about. Three is it possible to imagine a world in which humanity does not kill and to kill and to kill. What would it be like and fourthly, is this poem there to human beings. And to be fair to you I'm again going to give you a few minutes to talk about that, not quite as long as the other time, then I'll ask you to jot a couple of things down as well as, so I'm just telling you in advance. Okay, start with the first question. Right, it's your You want to ask something? So put the date in the drafting book please. The eighth. and erm sorry the poem the new poem, but that we'll spell it with a will be correct. Now in number one I'd just like you to write down an answer in your own way to this question. What would you say the poem was about?then in number two any alternative titles as in number two in the book. Right er you will have gathered probably that Mark wanted to ask a question I'll let him start written down and also express his concerns here. Mark? first question erm because erm the animals haven't seen a human before because erm they find certain places and neither buildings coming out from cities. So what did you think the poem was about? Was it something to do with man moving out into the world of nature? W what about the concern that you have? Well sir Oh yeah, that it says erm in here er it's got no fur and no eyes. Yes,Mar Mark wanted you to look at the third line of the third verse where there is a reference to no eyes and wondered whether you have any ideas about that. That man is lying to animals or nature. Russ? Tha that's the answer to the general question I asked at what the poem' about. You think it's about pollution? Yes. Right. Can I just take any views on the eyes before we take the er the wider view. Gina? You mean the animals can't identify what it is, but they they feel that whatever is it's leading to their destruction? Any more ideas on what the poem is about? Let's have some alternative titles then. Who's got one? I've got five. You've got five, pass it round then. I've got The Man, The Arrival of Man Yes. Right thank you. The Arrival of Man. Do do you think think the pictures help? Consider those if that gets us anywhere. Catherine? Some of them are rather like cave paintings aren't they and have they've got this from my a sort of tedious association of the drawings and pictures and er Catherine's it seems to be suggesting that animals were around, animals and other creatures were around a long time before human beings and that human beings are in some ways intruders therefore in their in their world. We're running out of time as usual, so if I can just come to that final line to you to consider and give me some views on them before you go. What do you make of the, the ending of the poem?and he kills and he kills and he kills. Realistic. It's realistic? Maybe it is, but what does it mean wh what sort of thing might it refer to might think of a couple of fairly obvious ones. Monique? Right er the killing of animals yeah, the killing of animals for example for food. Russ? Be a bit more specific about everything. Human beings just started destroying everything . The earth, ah, so w we we're back to your environmental theme, okay? Has it got three kills, they killed animals for meat, food. They kill animals for food, they kill everything which erm is affecting the environment, anything else that perhaps animals observing human beings think that they kill. Do it in two words. their habitat. Their habitat. Any, any other guesses as to what my two words might be? Brilliant, thank you. Each other I was also thinking of, I wondered if that was part of the point of the poem as well. I like the other two ideas also. Thank you for your contributions. In front of you is the tape for prosperity. Close your books now. I'm waiting for you to settle down. Right this morning. It's afternoon Miss. No this morning. Stop it. Can I have quiet now, please. Yeah. Right this morning to do and we're going to have the opportunity to do it in a slightly interesting way and you failed miserably because you sat and chatted and didn't get any work done. we got there. Okay . Right. This afternoon Oh please Miss. I gave you an opportunity and you Quiet. Stop talking, Patrick. Stop talking Patrick. Right, so afternoon is the feeding of the five thousand. Right some of you have read it already. There are two miracles in Mark's Gospel. names of those two miracles. Bread and fish. Yes. miracle. That was in Feeding of the four thousand. No, no, no, no, no recording. Quiet. Richard do you have to make those noises? Stop it. Richard, Yeah they're Right, to make sure that you all getting this down, I dictate the notes. Excuse me, This is on the tape. Bring it down. Amanda, that's a failure from you and from all of us. Right,the feeding of the five thousand. Yeah, George. So now settle a little. General notes. Wait a minute. Are we going to this? Five thousand's got six Os innit? called the feeding of the five billion. Did you say billion or million? Billion. Six noughts is billion million. Miss what's the sub-title? General notes. The miracle. Miss dictating The way it is normally your voices mingle into the This is the last lesson of the day, Exactly. I can keep you here for another ten minutes and I've got to Now get on with your work or get out of this classroom. I bet everyone wants to do is to get their voices out. Yeah I know Patrick, why are you looking that way? Because Stop it. Outside this classroom. Shut up and get on with your work. jam jars The details in this story. Wait a minute The details. In this story. Details in this story. Is well like this. I know, but I thought Story. Show That possibly. Possibly. Possibly. An An Told the story. told the story? Yes. Miss, Miss. I'll speak first. Patrick. What? I'll decide how to teach this lesson, thank you Right, e g the grass being green. more detail miss out from the story. Miss, the grass has always been green. Let me explain. In that particularly hot climate, it is quite often yellow. Shh. I was writing that sentence. Well catch up. I'm trying to, but I can't hear what she's saying. Shh. Quiet in the classroom. Jesus is also seen to be like Moses. Yeah Shut up. I don't mind. Have you got that sentence down? Yes. At his request Miss how do you spell request? R E Q U E S T R E Q U E S T Philip, shut up. At his request God sent who? How do you spell God? Miss why if they've only got one. If you'd like me to work miracles Sorry Miss, I was just asking. Quiet. What you'll get out to do some brain work. miracles, what are we going to tell him The miracle also The miracle also reflects the idea of the banquet How do you spell that then? B A N Q U E T Miss that's why you're doing this get it all down. Miss chalk and that is terrible of you implying that Miss is only doing it to get her voice on the recorder. bring it out on the charts innit. Specially with me on it. If you'd be quiet, they'll be plenty of opportunity for you to What's this for? I'll tell you all about that afterwards, and then you can tell me if you don't want to. I'll put it Alright? away. Yeah. They can't And then nobody'll think about it. Oh! Yeah, that's true. Here! I don't know whether I'm starting a hernia or ulcer. Oh dear! Oh! I've got a fairly . Hiatus one? Er, I think it is. Yeah? Er, what's it's I was still on traction you see, and last week when I went I thought I'd got these hives. Oh! Yet I sat . I'll I leave that behind. I couldn't make up my mind what it was. Anyway, I told her today, and she says it's nothing to do with it. But well, I've got it again. Oh! And so I'm thinking it's Sally says keeping moaning, go to the doctors. Hi Sandra! Hello Sandra! Hello! Hello! Hello! Hello! Hello! I'm , she can't come Yesterday's carols. with us yet. I think er, the good times are over judging by the way the And they're stretched far back you see. Oh yeah. Mind you, we've done pretty well haven't we? Ooh ah! Oh yeah! Yeah! And nice, that lady who left it there. I've left it there. Shown you, that was Oh yeah! one of my Christmas presents! Oh! Well they That's nice! well they wanted twenty! Oh ! Who was that you did? Do you know? Er,Grammar Catholic. Oh! What are the ? Christmas presents. Are they all ? the back of you , I mean couldn't you just That's . I like the, no, that, that sums up the glory Yeah, yeah. of it. Doesn't it? Oh yeah. How much do I owe you? Well have a . Well I've got my coat on why don't you come round and annoy me! It was. That was Christmas Eve You sure? wasn't it? I know what you're gonna No! get. The other one was Christmas day! ! I know! Here's our lady. Our resuscitation lady. Yes. That's the only good'un int it? Aye, aye Who, who put that write up in the I haven't put it in. I thought you had. No! No! I haven't put it in. Nothing to do with me. I thought you'd No. done it. No. No. In the Advertiser tonight. I didn't know there was one in! Well that's Oh yeah! what I thought you were going on about. You have to take it out. Yeah I, that's what I thought. Oh! Julie! What have you been doing now? Well it's in our paper then? I bet you thought I was, I did it . Yes, I thought you'd done it now. We're just getting his presentation. Oh I thought they hadn't Oh I when I get home. What? How many? I dunno. I didn't because I said er, could say she put a hat on. . They haven't put in. Then how well Yes, but I don't you have. But she has! Placed it into there. But she has. You look She has. you look like you're in a drunken stupor don't you? Well she couldn't get up! She's done that then Oh! they just dropped. That was, what with being dropped at the end of the day. Must have been green. Something in green. This was, at the end of the day when we finally Oh! sat down and said Well I said but well I said as mu if I didn't take my shoes off it Yeah. ooh I was ever so poorly! end of the week. Yeah. You went white Yeah. you did. And I was really, and, and the thought But you of being ill Yes, you went white. Oh gosh! I just hope you're there quick enough ! I know Elizabeth was praying for me and James was, and my mother was. And Julie was. White she went! We got a hundred and thirty pins out in fifteen minutes on the twentieth didn't we Margaret? Mm. Yeah, and then go and put a in the paper. Yes. Oh I know Ah! What was the again? I went down and told them! I should, I said oh they int I said obviously they weren't there! Yeah. Yeah. I went down but, but they haven't put it back in the How many times they get it wrong! But what's so down there? Yeah. Yeah I know, yeah. You know I wish I hadn't . Oh is that so? and they put an article in saying, it's got nothing to do with it at all! And it's fairly easy Oh! Yeah. Yes, I er, I went down and told them but they haven't pu they haven't put it back in. Anyway, Mary will have a sense of authority, she's going to she may go in his lecture, she'll meet him. Or like that when they Well there won't be anybody how much er coming this week should they? and er No. I rang Cathy from Market Drayton Oh yes Mary. I put it on the machine and I didn't think she would she'd get over just for the meeting at night, but I did. And I rang Je Oh! Jenny and Dave passed it on to them Yeah. for Mr and Mrs , so Yeah. whether or not they do make it. Er Oh yeah! but I did say seven Yeah. Yeah. so She understands. Oh yes, it was at the end wasn't it? Well we just sort of sat down and said anything to eat! Anything to eat ! Yeah. Just let me get Did most of them that is there ? The one in blue. But my Edna couldn't get over the fact that sh she'd gone through all that Yeah. and stayed till the end of the party! Yeah, but when I took her the toilet she wanted to go toilet Yeah. she says,I'm sure they're gonna . I said Yeah. well when you get back you tell me. Mm. Is this the ones that were ? Yeah, but I mean, yeah. Yeah! Her heart stopped. I took her the toilet she wanted to wash her face. That's right! She stopped breathing! And er Well who got her going, you? Yes, us and Sandra! And then going whoo whoo I said, I think the heart's still going! I was quickly going whoo whoo! Good Lord! And then her heart would go I mean I erm how do you erm bandage the foot! And me and him started laughing and had to know what it was . Well I, and she didn't ? It's Yeah. surprising what er We th we rang nine nine nine ! they sent er two paramedics. Oh stupid! I wouldn't have never have known Erm She had erm er and er angina but she takes this spray Oh! Doesn't she Yeah. not tablets. Me I mean she takes it when she's er does it. See I wanted to take that. bad. Yeah. Yeah. But it doesn't go that far. And she said every time she takes it makes her ill. Looks bad doesn't it? No. The father has the same Mm. and he stopped Yeah. taking it cos it did the same thing. Mind you, Oh yeah. Cos it makes her so ill! You can er, get that Why doesn't she go the doctors? And th then she was saying well we told her That's it! to go. Stupid ! So er Well it's terrifying for us! What a responsibility for you! Well, I was told somebody that there was a lady not feeling very well. So I went across and she was sitting by the fire exit behind the piano and er, I said what's up? She said well, I've had my medicine I'm not too good and I feel a bit Oh thank you very much! then sh she says I've been . Having, having looked at her Yeah. and she was beginning to Four or five of these. Yeah. hyperventilate. Yeah. She was panicking and the more she panicked the more she was Yes. gasping! Yeah! The more she was sucking in, and she says I'm going! Well fortunately, for me she wasn't what I call a big lady Mm. so I put her on the floor, lifted her feet up to get the blood back to her head Yeah. and she to she took about three minutes before she opened her eyes and came round. And then sh Elizabeth had come over by then and I said it's it's in her bag, so we had a look at it and her friend said it's for angina, it always makes her ill! Then we got her up and she said I'm going to be sick so I said don't worry about it. But we undid the fire door, which was fortunate we were by it and I said look I'll take you outside the fresh air might revive you. Mhm. So Elizabeth was about to get her onto the to carry her out,she said nice and gently and picked her up and taken her outside ! We sat her out on the chair, put her head between her knees and said look, take some big deep breaths and if you're sick don't worry about it, you'll be alright. Next thing she says, I feel funny! Oh I'm going she says! And the ne that was it! Just gone! And she stopped breathing! And I thought What outside? Cos Yeah. I laid her on the conc you know, like the, the step out Oh God! at the back we la Yeah. we laid her on the step and I said to Elizabeth she's stopped breathing! Elizabeth going, stopped, oh oh oh! She has! Well er Good job sh you was still we sat there there. well, we started this mouth to mouth and Elizabeth says I'll and I'll put, I said I think her heart's going, but I mean, to me it means anything to get her going. Mm! Anyway, we kept blowing in, and we must have been doing mouth to mouth for about eighteen er about a mi a minute and a half. Really? She suddenly, Elizabeth there's her one arm after she pressed down on her dress and then she goes, ooh! That's it, she's going! We rolled her on the side and she, she was very shallow breath Mm. like oh we talked to her and then we said, don't worry ambulance is coming. Just like, she went berserk! I'm not going anywhere! I'm not going! We had to promise she wouldn't go. That's it, they wouldn't go. Anyway, when the ambulance men came we made them a cup of tea, cos they said they a they'd have been that busy they haven't had a break! Oh! So we made them a cup of tea and hopefully they were going to talk her into it. And they said, if she doesn't go responsibility that we can accept and then she's had the chance to go. Yeah! That's right. Yeah, they . And she should have gone. Yeah well,sh when she went on Thursday she said I should have gone . Yeah. I said, well when you go back . Yeah well Cos really, I mean an E C G might have guaranteed some . Yeah. Well I think more than anything if they'd have seen the state she was in after she'd had this Yeah. drug, they could have probably kept her in, stabilized her on a new one Yeah. and then kept Yeah. her on the new ones. And she needs something. Yeah. Yeah I know. I mean you shouldn't be feeling like, I mean my mum had angina and my husband had angina but no,th the medicine never affected her like that! Well it did on my dad. This new spray apparently Oh well , I've had does give them no complaints about the er Terrible innit! It's the tri-nitrate, you know. The glycerine tri- nitrate. Yeah. Yep. How it affected them. Now I know one or two people who said they've had such terrible headaches You're not gonna cook another Yeah? it's really I hot! Yeah. Oh Sometimes Graham had a headache This spray gives a headache most of time. That's the Had your father had the pains in his chest Yeah. and the terrible thumping headache as well? Yeah. Oh dear! You see, a lot of people are saying that they should take Ooh I was frightened! Well I don't think I can feel like I suppose that were Victoria wasn't it, ringing nine nine nine they forgot to ask Mm. I know. See, she stopped breathing! Yeah. And they were ages out Yeah. in Anthony came through the corridors and say is Elizabeth there and was on One, two, three, four, five, six,. the floor and said, oh! And sort of came away much to say thought it was a joke, like Yeah. you know. Cos we didn't want the four,th the ladies that she was with they knew what was happening but nobody else knew No! No. But what, I mean, why they have I thought you had five of them, I didn't realize. You know, I didn't know what to do with her Pat she ! I thought perhaps she had too much to drink. No. Cos a gentlemen who'd come from Or bra brain damage anything! there and Grange, and he's had a bit to drink, he wasn't drunk, but But she's a nice lady! apparently he's argumentative. Oh yeah. He'd said something to this lady and under normal circumstances he would not a she wouldn't have said anything Ooh sorry Margaret! but It's gone on. Oh it's alright, don't worry. she did. Alright. And it was upset of answering Yeah. him back. Oh! He argued back with her and Yeah. she just Yeah. panicked! Yeah. It was the argument that did it. Yeah. It did. Oh! And I think it's, it's . Well it doesn't do you any good. It's that little man. Is that the little man? Yes I I know. Yeah. Yeah, him. But it were quite They were telling him he'd had enough drink and stop Yeah. being a piggy! Yeah. Yeah. But He is argumentative. when she went we oh he is! It's what he said! And somebody's car was actually She was a bit troublesome. I doubt What if it's her. She really that's . She is a bit like that int she? This is the one that that bloke Yeah! and these all came off the same train. I thought Ah! Well this lady was one who was arguing with him as well. Eh! Will you stop trying to Yes. blame someone now! All those calories, and eh! I couldn't really She really One Crunchie and it's alright. Yeah. Well You know, how the do you know the lady Yeah. that came in the wheelchair but her husband didn't come? He ca they'd gone to pick them up Yeah. and, he'd got her up and got her ready and sent her out and said he wouldn't come. And they were all saying oh but he's always like that! Well, on reflection, we actually said afterwards perhaps he wanted a day off. Yes. If she was Yes! in a wheelchair Yeah. and she was well in her seventies! Yeah. Mm. Yeah. Yeah. He probably thought that Christmas day, even if he wasn't with her would be a godsend Go Yeah, yeah. Yeah. if he could have a day's peace. Yeah! And I actually spoke to Jenny about it Yeah. and saying, what do you think cos of all the qualified ones at least she cos she worked on the elderly side. Right. Yeah. She said, I think, you'd be better off leaving him a if he doesn't want to come Yes. leave him alone. Leave him alone, yeah And that's right. they wouldn't let her sit with them because they said oh well, she's she's you know, leave her with them, and it was that little lad Yeah. and the next one that woman that, this one that you Yeah. were saying Aha. was complaining about him, and about this other woman so I think That's right. the lad's got Yeah. they never have a good word to say for each other! No, that was it, you know! But finally Well some old people are like that That reminds me, have you said anything ? And where she's moved to She doesn't like it. Oh! And she says, they are not real friends! No. Oh! So there you are, another saga! An hour before it she was crying to Theresa. Er Who was? which, this one? The one that passed out. Yeah. Saying that she'd had Oh I see, yeah. she doesn't like where she's been moved to because of her ill health. She had Yeah. to move. Yeah. Yeah. She doesn't She would like it and she turned round and she says they're not real friends. Yeah. And Ah! But she went to see that . Now did you that other woman, a younger woman Erm Constance. I don't know, is she? Oh yes! Oh yeah! And all on her She's always playing with that own! I know. But she's a tough one! She's the one with the Yes. She looks as if she's Yeah. trouble! With her table She was, she had a pocket full Yes. of anti-depressant pills That's right. Valium Well I saw her barbiturates. standing in the entrance of the Yeah. canteen, and I said to her, are you alright? She said I'm trying to lose my temper! So I thought, oh crikey! I'll leave her alone! Yeah ! Cos she just sat on her own didn't she? Yeah. And she had a But she wasn't any trouble though. No, but she No. sat on her own, Anthony came Are you sure? to me and said, ah! Mum that lady's crying! I said, leave her alone, she's alright, I said, she's happy like she's like that. And then somebody else came and said she was er I think Mm. it was young Victoria Yeah. I said, ooh, I said, she's alright on her own, I said she's quite happy, you know Yeah. crying into her beer and what have you. Oh yeah. And she was! Yeah! Well that's right! I hope I never like that! Yeah! She wasn't very tired Marg. And she'd had a drink, and a good cry, she'd had a good time. Yeah! There's her dad? Yeah. There's, there's Helen's dad. Oh! Does he? Yeah. Your, your husband? Yeah. Oh! But, but sh Oh! but you re you re you realize, and I don't suppose would, that she's a psychiatric patient, to a certain degree. Well whoever, whoever Yeah ! Yeah. Yeah. Well he does, sometimes she sa did she say him or did she say No, she says your dad keeps trying, er kee when I see your dad down the town and try and Well he doesn't know who's, his dad is. Well perhaps, perhaps the so and so, so told me. I guess she's . Oh I see! I see. Oh what a shame! Oh! Well I can't remember, that's what she said Yeah well Well we did have a letter off erm Good Neighbours through the lady who also came to sing, cos I know her Yeah. of old Yeah. to say you know, to thank us been looking forward when I come and She was very good wasn't she? Erm, yes. Erm, actually on reflection, having seen the bit of disaster that occurred because erm unfortunately Freda didn't get the phone call until early Christmas day morning off her daughter, to say that instead of them coming up to here to see them that something had happened in London, could they go down to her, so she was prepared to do us a half an hour at half past one and then she was going to drive to London! I said, I think you better go before you don't worry about the party. No. And that was a sort of a last minute cancellation, and I had to really persuade her to go. And we realized on reflection, had Freda have not volunteered early enough, another lady who used to work at the station played,u plays for Nigel when he does his gigs. Mm. And she's on her own, and so next year She is they're coming back again Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And she's Yeah. It's coming back again thi na na time next year, this year This year. Is she? And Yeah. they're going to bring Darlene with them. Oh good! It's only three hundred and sixty days to go! harder this year having that . Boring! Boring! Boring! Boring! Well, well it, it did even itself out. Yeah. It did even itself Yeah. out. Yeah. And, I mean, actually on Christmas day we lost about ten people who've been found ill. Yeah. I mean one lady was found wandering in the street! And fortunately, it was, it was one of the councillors, well they phoned that was meant to pick her up, and found her walking the street! Oh! Her husband had been taken into hospital and she was waiting for her son to come and pick her up at half past twelve, this was at half past ten in morning! No it wasn't in the morning. Now tha that's the Good Neighbours' officer. But and er all the same. And she erm well and she sat with him How did it go? fo for about Yeah. half an hour talking to her. But of course, Oh yeah. she's trained to do this. Yeah. I mean, er kind words. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. On behalf of the may I thank you for your you your commitment, your concern and a wonderful party held on Christmas day at the Wilsden Hall. to you all for accommodating a for your party that people in our street needed the hospitality. A lovely time was had by all and everyone expresses their thanks. Well done! Especially to the . Yours sincerely . Well on the whole we've had some Yeah. Mm! I've had Gets better the best yet. Yeah. And I said Yeah I know. I sa I said about half past three, that she must have been enjoying it because she never once came to me To you, yeah. and said after and I have. So I knew she was enjoying it. Yes. And I said, Thursday, did you enjoy it? And she said fabulous! It was the best I ever had! I think so. And she sat with the Yes. old dears Yeah. Yeah. Cos she wanted to . Yeah. Yeah. She said I quite enjoyed the singing. Yeah. Oh yeah. I think there was a lot of atmosphere. Yeah. My mother said that. There was a lot of atmosphere. Yes. My mother said that. Yes. Perhaps, perhaps cos Yeah. they don't think she's old, you see. No, I know that. that. Yeah. Rather than it's a wi with more children wasn't there this time? Only in so much that there was er Not for dinner. not for dinner, but all the came But then she doesn't eat dinner, you know, the one Er, no what happened, my sister came up and brought her two kids in the afternoon Ah! Ah! Ah! And then Gloria turned up with her kids in the afternoon Oh I see. but they didn't come until three o'clock. It was after Ah! Ah! it was after four. Ah! And they knew Ah! that by coming late they'd have to just take the entertai I mean, except for the monologue. Oh! Yeah. Yeah. Well she said you'll be Is there any more tea in that pot? But that's where the cars are. Well Oh that girl was there, yeah. He looked by the way from the most of them, playing up with them at the games and did the up there. I went off to the doctors, she said I had and I was upset Ha! Ha! that er Oh we'll have it down at there then. Get them out the way. And she went to him Yeah. afterwards didn't she? Oh did she? Oh she went to him afterwards. Yeah she did. Yeah! Oh! At home, yeah. Oh I didn't see that one then. Well no, she finished it. I think if we ever need to fill in half an hour we know what to do! She can Can you re by the microphone then. Can you remember er if we got her on, after we got her on Yes we did! Our son was in one of them when he was at school. He used to be able do all those, you know, er Stanley Holloway? Yes. Sam Ah! Well Brian Yeah I know our Paul . Well if it is a it would have been good! Same er But Yeah. nobody knew what she sa Yeah! she were talking to herself in the end! Yes. Yeah. We didn't, I'm, I'm going back to the letter, we did have another one off Tom . Yeah. And I said she'd have had a So we've looked at that. microphone. He's gentleman isn't Yeah. he, Tom? Give him a microphone I don't like him. You don't like people at all! Yeah. It er, er Mr used to live down here. Mm. Yeah. Erm, I mean, he wrote a lot, I saw him church on Sunday and I did thank him for the letter Oh! and he said well it was the least I could do under the circumstance. He, he is a gentleman! He is an old fa Yeah but is he again then? Yeah. I know. have some cheek don't they? Yeah. Aye. Yeah, he normally goes to Then he says, are you going now June? I said, yes, got to get Theresa up. I said, er, he says have you been across now June? He says I told her I'd come straight from church if there was a cup of tea. I said, come on then Tom let's go get one! And er he enjoyed it. Yeah. Mm. Then they said Yes. everybody came in they had Mm. sherry all the while. Yes! Well I said to er one lady who's been for first time and she thinks it's marvellous! Mm! Well I know with two ladies th their daughters wanted to, them to go the house and they wouldn't. Mm! They said, no we want to go the party. Oh! Oh! And one of th the daughters was quite upset about it. Mm! Well I think I would, I'd take Did the old man play the violin? Oh! He, he really No. er What could I do? I mean he pla Yeah. he played his violin beautifully! But it was a bit of a behind everybody else but er I know, but I was only pointing out something . Er i it was. I was that because Nigel Oh well! Nigel got them all up before they even said too much. Yeah. Yeah. Shall I play my violin? Yeah. No. He loves taking his violin. He he played his violin, he got up, and actually there was erm the dad,th the mum, she sang with them, is tha was that who it was? The Who? the lady who was singing with them was that Oh yeah! Victoria, her mum? Well yeah. That's her mum. She's another so er light operatic singer. She got up and then when it came round to singing Jerusalem and Edie was put out at not singing Jerusalem, this is another one off the psychiatric list and Pat goes so she got up as well. And he played his violin as well so and actually what Nigel had wanted was to get a little choral group so we Yes. could all sing. Mm. And then what what was Jimmy offered the day after? But some ninety twenties song sheets with all the old time Oh! singers on! Right! This is what you want. So then he said he was getting them copied ready for th Yeah. another year. Oh yeah. They'll want something, yeah. But, when Nigel comes next year he'll bring Eileen and I think that under circumstances I think if we say well come for about quarter to two. Yeah. Mary would have come and helped at dinner time but she thought that, well it would be alright, you know, and Yeah. we didn't need anyone. Said if you'd have come early ! Who was Nigel? That was the lad who sang Yeah, but wha who is he? Well, he lives in Next to me. Just next er to me. this lady who's secretary sit in Sandra's Yeah. chair. ? Yeah. Yeah, well she used to work at the station in the offices. I've known her for twenty odd years! Jimmy knows this Nigel. He's goes up the Cricketers. I keep thinking Oh he does. Mm mm. if we could, I keep thinking about your lunch I said problems. Pardon? I keep thinking about your lunch er, opportunities. Why what do you mean? Well, I was telling you or are they alright? Well no, we're alright in the mornings. Right. Yeah, we're okay. I know we were at one point. Yes. Yeah, we're okay for help int mornings. And how long have you been going now? Er, just over a year. Started before last Christmas. Mm mm. Yeah. Yeah. It's great. It's dead on. Supposing you don't have any of the ones And how many did you want? you talked about a minute ago and do a a for them. After one of the Christmas parties? Er was it that wasn't a person was it? No. No. But, there was a reorganization at Cortilles before you went Oh yeah? Oh. and, they asked us did we want to take over the dinners because Oh! it was being reorganized and the lady who did it couldn't do it any more and would one of us like to take the Oh! organization on? And I said well, I'm sorry to say that we're a bit too busy in the Mm mm. week to to take it on. I mean, the same goes when the when they seem to be organizing something that Yeah. runs well it's so easy for other groups to, to try and get you to help them out. If you do Yeah. But, if you get involved you end up either taking over Yeah. or not doing what you set out to do. So it's Yeah. best off not doing any of it. No you have to say cos I You've got to choose what you cos I won't take any more on. No. Not if involves this weekend. Their club Wednesday afternoons, the children, asked the children a bit of reading. And they have their lunch and come out Tuesday. Mm. And I Yeah. and I won't take anything else on. No. Yeah. Well I mean that when we start organization and I am on, I'm on Cortille and on the committee and they wanted me to take over the Vice Chairman and I said no way. Because I mean we've helped you with this and helping with that anyway. I mean, I Yeah. haven't got involved in like taking friends and organizing and baking cakes and that sort of thing. And also, I mean with badminton you have to be Mm. committed to that, you've gotta be committed because otherwise you're letting other people down. People down. Yes, yes. Oh yes. Yes. You said. That's right. Yeah. I mean, I said no I've got enough without, without being Vice Chairman. I don't mind ha as much as I can, when I can, but I don't want to have to be there all the time, every time there's a committee meeting there Mm. every time there's, you Mm. know, there's that, gotta go here and get things. Mm. Don't want that. I don't mind being told what to do Mm. Yes. Mm. and doing it. I mean, I was there er, I left yesterday afternoon, I mean, I had to go in early and we had erm an auction and I helped do that. So, I don't mind doing that, I don't mind helping but I don't want to be You want involved in any more No. business. No. Because otherwise yo you miss out on something else Yeah. cos you get fed up of them in the end Yeah. anyway, don't you? Yeah. Anyway, is this committee coming to order? Yes. Yes. Or is it turning into rabble! Right. Is there anything left Yeah well there is about seventeen pounds in change in there but we still have to get the Christmas puddings cos we haven't seen any yet. I've got the was there something? I haven't been up to buy meat Well I didn't go No. er er because er we had a rather an in-depth session at the football on the telly on Monday night. and there were, I'd got a, a room full of young boys wanting to watch Crewe play Liverpool. And er I don't think I was particularly keen of having a house full and I thought Mm. while th going out leaving them Yeah. I fell asleep. Oh. Er, and I'd forgotten to take the money up before Christmas so it was still here yesterday. Well, I wasn't there . And, I was expecting you and I took a a bag full of clothes just to try Well I told you not to go in on Monday night. Yes I Did you? was just after those things. How they, how they know . Anyway, what I'd got was a bag of clothes for Caroline to try Oh! Super! she might have to Yeah. cos some of them are trousers but they're really Yeah. nice and really warm and there's a sweater dress and a jumper and Ooh! Ooh! these things. Yes. Yes. And I brought them up on Monday night Yeah. in case you and Sandra came. Well she'll be there this Monday. Yes. Have you, you got er, have you, well you've got transport Yeah. for her? Aha. I shall be there this Monday. This is what we want some little of the like them crafts made. I got it on one of their dos Sunday morning from June's. What is it? Just some Oh! Yes of course. I thought, well that's a nice little thing. Yes. Innit? Yes. Yes. That's a cherry drawer that is. Yes, I got one of them when I got Yeah. And for no more money. Are mine smaller than that? Yeah. Only that bit. Mm. But, they're from erm Kwik Save and they're no dearer in this nice little jars than they are in the plastic tubs with the same cherries Yeah. on. Oh. Mm. I thought, oh if we could hold of some of them what we could do with them. Yeah, yes,bu yes. Er, I've loads. You know, in fact, they're bigger than that, but the big jar's like a chocolate tin with the red lids on whether you could fill them with bath crystals and some things like that. And people are more into foam baths and that sort of thing Yeah. nowadays aren't they? Yeah. Unless you were to put, like to fill, to fill it with a cheap flannel and a bar of soap and a sponge. Yeah. Well we'll have to think of summat. Mm. Ooh! If we're er having the centre Yeah. Yeah. for the are we that far or shall we offer them Well a lift? I er, I was just going to bring them up with erm you know about the cheque, cos you got Yeah. did you know about the cheque? We got a donation given to us. From your dad? No. No. That never came, that never came to fruition. Didn't it? Oh. In so much that, they were dithering over other things that we think There's another cup of tea in, er, Margaret if you want a cup. er, they were meeting and the lad who was supposed to be at the meeting didn't know what they'd come to decide on. We'd got to go and pay a bill That's right. Yeah. Oh. and they needed to know what to pay. Yeah. So in the end I had to say I haven't got any more time to chase up after him, but I could always probably come back again later on in the year. It would have meant Yeah. I would have to pay for it and try him again. I think Christmas beca cos there was that er you see, they were sorting out Yeah. and I was blue with that with them on one and at this on the other Yeah. and the lad who was dealing with it all, we had some hassle from another quoter. And then he said, they haven't had their meeting. Mm mm. He said, how do they what they've said, but they haven't had it? No, we had a cheque which we presumed had come from Social Services Yeah. and when it arrived it turned out to be a donation from the Lord Mayor's charity. It had Oh! been applied for on our behalf so it wasn't in fact from Social Services. Mm mm. And it had been made out to The church. the church. Mhm. So, in the end rather than send it back and ask for Mm. it to be rewritten we usually have one event after Christmas that pays for the extra gas and heating that we use. Yes. Er, I know it's twice what we normally pay, cos it was a hundred pound. Yeah. But on reflection, a quick little sub-committee meeting at the end of Christmas Day he said well we've paid it now, but we are in fact, in hand Yes. Yeah. Mm. for the next twelve months Yes. that we use the hall. Yes. Right. Yeah. Even though we never asked, I think we still have to make Yeah. sure Sure, yeah. that we're not costing anything. Cos that very nice I think. That's all, yeah. Yeah. And I So, I mean, if anybody wear and tear Yes. then I mean, if anybody asks you to see if it's gone through our books it hasn't, but Mm. having said that it's in lieu of the debt that we would have paid. Yeah. But, I then, subsequently met the chappie in charge of Social Services outside the school! Who said, how did it go? Blah, blah! Very nice. He said there might be some more money coming. From them this Yeah. time. But he Oh oh! he said this last year Yeah. and it never came. And the year before! So I mean, I will continue to harass him through the twelve months if possible, because I think Well when you think how many people we have to Yes, they I know! yeah. Yeah! And they Of course! for those who are housebound But I mean and incapable of driving They only have to think about they have to provide it for them, you see. So we take Yeah! it off them. We take it off Yeah. and they should Yeah. come round. We're not doing it to compensate Social Services Yeah! we're doing it No! to provide a day for the people who Yeah. come. Yeah. But, at the same time it does take the burden off them. Yes it does! Yeah! Of course! I mean, they Yes! should have to find somebody to go wouldn't they? Yes! They would. Course they would! Yeah. Yes! So, I will carry on. But, at the moment, there's enough in there to pay off what debt we've got left. For the puddings in there? For the puddings. And there's a few coppers left over. Well I've got mine then, that woman give me. Yeah. Well, in the bank's four hundred and forty seven. So, we are well in hand. Mm! Erm we went up as high as er eight hundred forty one erm What do you reckon it'll cost this year then, er last year then Sandra? About er I keep saying we need somebody to keep account book. About Mm. six hundred pound. About five to six hundred Yeah. pounds I, I thought about six hundred. Bearing in mind that this year we got a lot more, I mean, we we got all those crackers and blowers from the hotel. Er, I haven't sent him a letter back yet cos I thought, wondered whether anybody'd like to volunteer to write, I sent a card last year. What's this? Er what is it for? The Borough. They sent Did they? one hundred and fifty crackers and a tub of at least a hundred blowers! Ooh! Well how do they get it bearing in mind the other No, the co the cost of that alone Yeah. those boxes of crackers are about I think they're about fifteen pound a box and the three Mm. boxes Mm. Mm. Fifteen But pounds a box! Well there's fifty in each one. Oh! Yes. Yeah! I think there are ah, no! No! No! I was gonna say! No, they're nine pound. Cos I know when I went to the warehouse Oh that Yeah. erm when I went the first year I looked at them. Do you remember when I bought the wrapping paper Yeah. Yeah. and they were up there then. And I looked at them and I thought well it's a lot of money to pay out, we'll see what comes in. Erm and on, on reflection I er I didn't buy them and he sent us three boxes and they came from the same warehouse. Oh good! Yeah. Course they cost a lot I think a letter would , I think a letter would be very nice. The manager of the hotel? Don't ask me his name because it's Italian! No, just to the manager, Borough Hotel, what's the, what's the ? The Villa Arms The Villa Arms. Hotel. I hope he hasn't got his tea towel with him! Villa Arms hotel? Yes. Yeah. Right. And he sent three boxes of crackers. Yeah. A hundred and fifty crackers Er and a box of blowers. a hundred and fifty crackers just a letter addressed Yeah. and a box of blowers. Just to say thank you very much, they were very much appreciated. Well they were, because Oh! Very good! things like that, and we also, I think this year we ought to send Sid one because he came up with ten litres of five each of them boxes so came up with ten litres of wine. Well I thanked him twice. I know. But Nice really to write a letter. I think, I think to have made effort, that's to the It's his wife who normally does things. Well, it might put the cat among the pigeons June, but then so what! It needs revitalizing ! Well I thought I would As half of them would they all made funny Oh! pictures on the Oh yes. wall. Oh that's my er lads up in from the . I've seen them there. Oh! Cos when the On behalf of the war times That's the last one there. committee? Yeah. They Yeah. show . Oh. And they never lose them then. Bit difficult. Yes. Yeah. They said at the Cricketers this year. It's at the Crick Cricketer's Arms. Er, well, was it Mr this time? Er er ? Yeah. Shouldn't you put Mrs and Mr cos they are man and wife. Well that's, oh yes alright. No. S A,? Yeah. Yes. Cricketer's Arms. Just do a duplicate copy of the letter. And also, I think, to add . Ooh yes! They should have one. And, the manager of ? No, Arthur No. . Arthur Is he the manager there? No he was the one that He's the commissions manager. Arthur . Well I think if you were to send it to the manager, care of, Mr Arthur . Mr Arthur . If we send it to the manager, care of Mr Arthur . Right. Yeah. Care of, Arthur . How do you spell Arthur ? Yeah. Yeah. I would just . Yeah. Yeah. And I, I tell you something else and all on Saturday it's erm Margaret . 's birthday. Oh is it? Yeah. So I think er A card. if we all sign on a card. I've got one. Have you got one? Right. And er, I'll put it through. Right. Fine. Because by God she's a great'un int she? How did she go on I know. at does anybody know how she went on at her dance New Year's Eve? Well I was there. No, there was nobody there. Did she go? Yeah. Who? Margaret? Yeah. Cos she, I heard her voice A New Year's resolution. Oh! That Well, why I'm asking Yes. I saw her on the way to the doctors and she'd thought she'd got chicken pox. Oh yes. Yeah. No, she's had . I said, I bet you're allergic to something. Oh nothing Yeah. Sandra, I've been with somebody with chicken pox Yeah. Mm. cos she said if I can't go do you want two tickets? I said, well I'll find somebody but I hope you haven't got chicken pox. Oh no, she went. Er er urgh! The music was terrible! Mm. We left here at half past eight and we didn't get on the dance floor till twenty to ten cos there was three Oh. girls hip-hippy shaking. Oh! That was the music. Oh! And when he played a square tango it was just like er . You know, I mean tramping. Ah! Dear. It were true. It was full eight. Oh! Then he played summat else. Well we ha went round wo we had to come off the bloody dance floor ! Yes I said, no, I said next year we'll have tickets but if it's the same whatsit we don't want him. Well we pay all that money for the disco thing. Yeah. You don't have much to eat either do you? Oh yes! It's quite Well yeah. good, yeah. There was two salmon sandwiches, two cheese Oh yes. I was talking about another dance where you've had your bit There's only bit I've . Oh! It's only a jacket potato missing. Oh! And all the er rice and oh there was salad on the table. Oh was there? Quite enough. Oh! Yeah. But erm the music, oh dear! What er, Margaret are you talking about ? Got blonde hair. She came up Chris Christmas day in the home. Up there in the home. . It's, I think, it's in the book. Oh really? Oh why Well should we then? No. No. She has. Not for most. She had, and I think I know the bar lady. Oh yeah. It was lovely! But even they couldn't dance to the music. Couldn't they? No. No. And er, there was another table there was eight or ten on that one. Erm the little one Marg. I dunno, she always call him Aden. We've got nicknames for them you see Mhm. and I'd had a and er they, I never saw them on the floor. Oh. And they do all the sequence dances. I know that, they love dancing. A do we know how erm Mavis is? No. Well getting a better, a little bit better each day. Was she badly hurt? Never felt better. That was a shame Margaret . She didn't have any broken bones. Oh and I mean th there was some little Christmas tree, gingerbread al Yeah. almonds on. And they had little pink icing of a star on the top and we must have had six dozen. Oh that's nice. And they, a lot of them got Is this when they rang up and said they'd got cakes left? Yes, yeah, and Julie went down Yeah I had them. and saw and them. we did, some had gone out on the plates and then I had three boxes left and I was going round giving them out. I got rid of them all cos they're all taking them home. Yeah. And, there was some on a plate and my sister's little lad went up and went to take one off this plate and then Valerie tu turned round, she said er, you can't have one of them, them are for the old folks. Ah ah! No! And he was , cos it, I really want a Christmas tree Yes. only it was just what Mm mm. he wanted. Yes. Oh! She wouldn't let him have it. Tt! Oh! Well , and God's honest truth I never saw them. Cos they went out and they were playing That's it. and that's it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Cos, I suppose it was cos we were all so Mind you,a er you do find don't you? But I I mean I don't know cos I'm not, I think when they give something away for nothing it's almost worse than when they're paying. And when Well they're paying they don't want to unfortunately I, I mean there were two plates Oh yes. of salmon sandwiches Yeah. and we've, I mean we've said this on reflection afterwards, as much as we don't like cutting up plates of sandwiches there must have been some that took home half a dozen Yeah. salmon, and there were some Yeah. that never saw a salmon. No. We didn't get, we'd I loads over cos . No. My father never saw a I said I bet, when I saw this June . I said that I couple of the No. sandwiches, there's a cup of tea I said and they'll never know. No. I never Well you know what? the only thing I got was of Stella cutting that cake all the time. Cos she'd burn more. Old fashioned trifle Oh don't make me Pat ! Yeah. She had a cake. She had a cake. They always say the thought might be worse and to, we know it costs about, it costs about ten pound to buy well, I think at the end of the day worth it, is to put them out on a paper plate. Yeah. Simply Yeah. not to save the washing up but to stop the arguments Yeah! that came! Yeah. As to who'd got what. And if they didn't want it then, they had a plastic bag they Yeah. could have just put their plates in and taken Yes. it home. As it was, I mean I found another chocolate gateau under those Christmas tree cakes. And somebody said, we haven't had any cake! And I went, I know everybody had a piece of this chocolate on their plates, but there was nothing else I could do, once they saw it that was it. Yeah. I never got to the end of the table. Yeah. Mm. And there are I know. there were sixteen portions Yeah. and they sell at fifty four pence Yeah. a slice. I never saw that those, under that ga table. No I didn't. I was left with the You know trifle left, and by the time the trifle was there but there was no sandwiches or . Do you know what it reminds me of. I, I will, I always Oh . used to give our kids birthday parties, always and when Paul had a, I don't know if you knew Jason Yeah. erm last year? A little No. boy named Jason tha he's a young man now but when and we used to have the sandwiches on the table and Jason always used to sort of take umpteen and po pile them up on his plate and Yeah. and I used to say, just take, there was loads Mm. just take one at a time. But no. Yeah. He had to have five or four Some are like that. Well I Well I think those old people are Yeah. like that. She's like that even now at thirteen. Yeah. Yeah. If he hasn't got three times more than anybody else he'll scre Yeah. you know, he'd have nothing. But I mean old people Yeah. They're the sa the same yo you know they're are like children aren't they? They want everything Yeah. just going for them. Mind you Yeah. it's better than throwing a lot of stuff away. Oh yes Yeah. but They can eat it at home when You can say if That's right. if, if, if it had been proportioned out that, they had one salmon, one cheese, one ham Yes. with a couple of cakes and one of these Yeah. Christmas tree, a bit of Yeah. Yeah. and given them a dish of trifle I think a lot would have just eaten the trifle, had a cup of tea and taken the rest home. The rest home. Oh yeah! As it was Yes they were seeing how much more they could eat and take home. Yeah. And if they knew it had all been Yes. divided and gone out there wouldn't have been a Yeah. problem. Mm. Yeah. D'ya think it might be worth writing to some of the and asking them to donate any paper plates? We, we actually wrote to the manufacturers of paper plates Yes, that's right. the first year and the most you get out of them is they don't even bother to come and see you in the corridor do, who went down? Yeah, I know. I know. I know. Somebody went there. Was that Deeko? Yes. Stood outside and I'd been rung up That's shocking! rung up and th Yes. many times, not only for this group but for another one. Yeah. And they don't even answer. Ooh! How awful! And we lost our contact didn't we? Although I, we wasn't surprised by them Yeah. suddenly erm Anyway, shall we start ideas, good Right ideas? Yeah. Well That we put the teas out Yeah, the plate. on the plate. Yeah. Save a lot of bother. Mm mm. Well it, it, it caused a lot of aggravation to some Yeah. that Didn't particularly those in wheelchairs that couldn't fight their way to another table Well I said can Yeah. I get you anything? But th none of the men had too much it'd be the women who'd be in Oh yeah. there. Yeah. Cos we couldn't find this for lunch over Yeah. there. Mm mm. The women that erm, I must admit though that Yes. The men's The er was just there. the dinner organization was better cos we did manage to get seconds out to those that wanted it. Yes. Yeah. And, there wasn't one complaint about the turkey. No. Yeah. Not one. One complaint about the carrots. Carrots. But we solved that didn't we? Said it was lovely. She wasn't that Oh well I'll get sure. I said to Edie, was the dinner nice? She says yes, but the carrots weren't done. And she'd got two little rings of carrots left on her plate. And so, after, bringing out a spoonful, so I went to and er tasted them, I said mum they were done, done to perfection. She said well it must have been just those two little bits. Have you got a photograph of her Pat? Aha. Cos we're keeping a photograph of all She's . Is that it on my bag? Yes. Well you . I mean she'd only left two rings on her plate. Yeah. Did you get the turkey breast the same from Asda? Yeah. No, no. That she got from ? Only Yeah. I've seen them in Asda. I Yeah. er It ji they haven't done them before, not on that scale. No. And, I did notice they're doing the turkey legs but they're a lot Yeah. dearer. Dearer. Yes, I noticed that. Well I had breast. But, the breasts were the same price Mm mm. and to make up the weight instead of five he sent six to make the weight up. And we didn't, we, we only needed five. We only needed five. Bearing in mind, you only needed four though and knew they hadn't of come cos well Oh yeah. having said that Yeah. they weren't wasted cos you went Did you put your hams on the dinners? They had a slice of ham Oh did you? and a slice of turkey. Yeah. Oh right. Yeah. Er erm I think, I mean they all eat most of them eat the ham, there were a few that sent it back I think it was probably a bit much for them. Yeah. Mm But er Did you slice it yourself? Yeah. I've got Two two electric, electric two electric carvers. I used one of them on the Yeah. ham. The only time I ever use that is when I've got children there. I buy unsliced bread so I can use my electric knife. Do you? An and Jim Oh well I'll, have to do that. I love an unsliced loaf. Ooh! I know. I like a sliced one but i And d'ya know, Yeah. he's er cut up, as soon as comes in the morning he likes a piece of toast. And I've used this uncut bread Sandra's got a tape recorder on here. You Anyway should have given us the nudge. Margaret wants to say something. Right! Let's listen to her. She then said that is This is clever! this woman's Right. And she's She was really in love. I know. Have you seen where she lives? And she wanted the other and er and she didn't want her sandwich. She said, why have you got ? Why can't we pay for that here? Anyway she go it really looked good. Yeah. Yeah. Straight line! I have gone in and back that way, I've gone straight over! Straight over. I did that! You di , straight o I'll demonstrate. Give me these here. No! No, you put that to, turn that to a different colour. What you did, you went into the middle and out again. You've got to go to the middle and straight across. But then, if there's another one there Well you just came because your draughts are like this. You just go and I had a, that's a straight line because then when you get to there you put another straight line across another jump! You've gone a straight across there. A straight line. What you had done But you didn't let me go like that! You did! You did that all the way down that line when you started didn't you? So why didn't you let me have that one then? Because what you did, you went over to the top of it in a sense, and then straight at an angle to it. You've to go straight across. When you did it this way you go straight across, straight across,strai , but yo your second jumps you were doing you were going there like that instead of going straight across. Do , show me what you've just done. I went across yours like that. So I can jump over mine too. Yes! But yo , not the way you did it over here. So why didn't you let me go No because you di , you made two, you made two mi , what you did on this one over here you moved into a space first and then jumped. That was your move. Yeah, he did do this. He went You did like that. that, and then jumped. Well that was your move into the space. There's yours. Excuse me! That was there. Wasn't. Wasn't! It's my go. It's your go. Block her off ! Never mind trying to block me off! I don't know where she's going to. Ah! No I do. No I don't. Ian's not far enough across the board to do anything to me. What you doing? Mm? , I mean, like you aren't gonna move that anywhere else until you've moved all them in. And then you'll have to go round. Oh yes! I know what you mean now. Are you playing at er, a cheating game you two? Mm? And he goes backwards? Yeah? Ooh! My go, right. You see you're,yo , make sure you're going backwards but he'll keep going forwards so I wouldn't listen to him Ian otherwise you'll end up losing. Yeah! That'll do He there. Now move that one? No, move your fingers. dong di di . That's when you move there then. It's your go Ian. Urgh! Urgh! Me? Yeah. Cor! Ah! Oh oh! Your turn. Ooh sorry! I didn't want to come really! You could have just, really boring ! Ignore me! That was Sally up there. And arranged to fetch Well I must admit I I was bought, my sister saw them in er . It's a little box and in the lid was a recess Yeah. with a little plastic fork and spoon. I think I left them in . And they were fifty pence. And I bought a couple but the kids have taken them to school. Do you want to pick them up? They take a cold meal. But Meals? Oh I thought you said cold meat! No, cold meals! Cold meals, right. So I bought two Yeah. they're not quite big enough for putting Matthew's in separate. Oh. You know, I can't him enough Yeah. So I've put myself er salad and cottage cheese. Erm, and our John he did take but he doesn't like it when it goes . Yeah. So he's back on just er but, I have another box at home and it's, it's a round box with Yes. four I've seen you with that one haven't I? , yeah. Yeah. Okay. Well what I do with Matthew is, I put him the lettuce and tomato and celery in one portion he has er, cottage cheese and coleslaw in the other and Mm. and then whatever he's got some corned in another one. And I put cling film on the top so I forgot . And then, the other one I add a cut of erm chocolate teacake or something. Yeah. La , like I've done today I've made him another jelly in it. Kevin takes his er packet of Quavers. His chocolate biscuits ! Yeah. Do you like Quavers? . Actually feels like as if you've eaten one. Where's the ? Well I'm off next week, Thursday we got an extra four packets at the time. That's right, yeah , that's what I say, they're all going spare. The oth , it's the other ones we've . I know. Er No. I've seen at school that one. Er trying think what her name is? Julie. Julie. Julie with the blond , er dark hair and she doesn't like Sonia. And she sits on the opposite to us last year. Yeah. Any time, any time at all I'll get you off. I says, are you in Thursdays? And she said no ! She's not oh she's not doing erm She says she's in Tuesdays for one sodding hour! I said that's exactly what I have Thursday. I said nothing you can to change it because of the way the system works. Yeah. If I changed it they'd probably convenient. And she she's primary ed so she's no good to Jean either. No. There are Jean. I'll, I'll ask this other girl who I don't know so well but I'm sure if she's going that way, she, you know, she's in that area anyway. Well I know both Julie and er and then I'll Yeah. I've forgotten her name! Oh it's Paula ? No, I don't think it is. No, it's Mandy. Doing education and But as I say, it's just a case of asking though. It's nothing you, you know even if you only can manage for a few weeks. I used to find in Newcastle College, I mean I was wa walk back and people used to stop and Yeah ! Shall we ? Yeah. I was gonna say have you had a nice Christmas but we saw you last week ! I've had a lovely Christmas thanks Joan! Have you? Yeah. At my mother's Christmas? Oh this super Sandra, by the way! I know. We've met. Haven't you met me ? Yeah I know. Tired today. I am. Oh dear! I was giggling there's a big fat boy was going to take a chance with this toffee bar, you know, super Sandra! I do think that's nice actually I might get one. Can I get up this one? Er yeah. Oh yeah. Might as well I'll remind Ray. go up there. Yeah. I don't know who put it in you know. Don't you? It's not a member of the committee. We did actually have er, it's a , I think what it might be we had a lady who came to brought her son, mind, her son's thirty odd and they did the singing for us. And er she's the secretary for the Good Neighbour there was another man there from the, from the Good Neighbour who does like, the articles or the advertising, and I think probably it's got to be her. And what did you think to the ? I'm never really saw it Well to be quite honest with you wasn't very impressed. I mean I Anyway, it didn't . Bad, I thought. And Joan said she must have been depressed . I would have been been less chance of me doing that if I felt depressed. I mean really look I said to Fred the other day if you knew you were depressed . Yes. In fact, If you'd said the right things at Yes. the right place. It serves her right really. But not, I mean And then er yes, he wasn't impressed. Well I thought th th was alright didn't I? Yeah. And I think everybody Ah, I shouldn't think they will. I must Won't they? admit I am No! going to miss that Jane. Course not, cos we've got the summer to, as well haven't we? That's it, and get one in now Er, have you been to Biology? Go , you sorted your Erm cos I went last night. Yeah, my room number's O O three in the big one. That's right, yeah. Is that a ca , is it a And it's the one with Hi Hilary or a departmental. Departmental. I've got the big place as well! Oh have you? Yeah. But they're all well I went and I said to them I'd forgotten my essays, my room number, the lot! And I said I said so I told her the registration and she gave me the room number but she said . Oh. Didn't seem to be very specific at all. Were they not? Well, we put all of that we've not any offers anyway ! Oh! You gotta consider them. Still, we're having a cat! ? She won't say yes. At the corner. Yeah? Oh you're erm magazines at the top there. Er, when you've finished with it, all I want is the token off the corner of the page it happens to be on the reverse side Right. of the first page. I'm not saying we're going to collect the tokens, but just in case our John says mum! You know? Yeah. Oh this erm it's the currency of the world. Oh! Yes. From the Times? Yeah. Well, of course, we do have The Times dear! Here! Here! We can just about. I have never known so many articles on Russian! It might be a thing in there. This is on the black market Russian. Do Russians, Russians come up and er ? Oh yes. What did she do to the market? That's what this is, Mrs Well Bolcek Bolcek Right. Aha. She will actually,. Yeah cos my friend Yeah. She felt that the education of the Boars wasn't me , er the basics to get some education for them. I thought that she gave them education to add to er, to the poor. And cos she always, she brought That's just like . er she brought a, a lot of Western artifacts in it, she brought Western civilization Yeah. had been taught. I do that in fact, quite like it. Ah, well yes, I suppose what I mean is er Nothing really, when they I wa , I know when I haven't got mine, yeah. when I looked at the front page and he said about two paragraphs Yeah. I thought you'll be lucky! You'll be lucky! She communicated Peter outside. Did she really? She just put that Yes she did. Cos he's such a friendly I Joan picked up a lot of little incidentals that we didn't pick up. No, you picked up i I mean, I put that she recognized the gap between you know, the Russian ally to the Ger , I presume they did have Russian ally. Is that the right word? Er, and and the Marsey's you know, they were ordinary peasants. She volleyed something, but I couldn't remember what she had . Thurston was he ? She didn't like Thurston Probably she did she? I don't know. I sat there and thought what did this woman abolish? I th , you know when you're sitting there and can't click your brain into gear? Well mine was like the lecture. Mm. That was on er are you going to the Highbury now? No. I can probably go sometime this morning. You got something to drop off? No. Not that that's got any off your your Yeah. card. You want me to, it took me, it took me an hour and it'll finish it. You see, I'm gonna have to go, go today I'll go in the break. That's all I'm thinking now. You should have asked, you mean by Friday don't you? Yeah. Erm, you know the parent's, you know parent psychology Yeah. er, psychology are you only in Thursday same as me two till three. No. Oh! You're in for four lectures aren't you? Oh yes. Will you get a lift back? You'll miss this one ! Well I don't back for Oh you don't go back? the sixth form. Oh we're not, we don't need to take it till the next one. Yeah, I go by car. Five till six I do. What's that for? Er it's er Tutorial. See Ah! we have a lecture Yeah. four till five. Mm. Well they've stopped that lecture we're only having one now, but we've Mm. still gotta do tutorial five till unless, we can come to some arrangement Yeah. with the bloke who we have it with and say can we have it a bit earlier. You going home this afternoon? I would say, yeah. Right the way through? No, I shall go home about erm after the Oh it's alright. No, cos er What time are you going at? Well, we've got last lectures at five. No. I'll go home. I've got nothing this afternoon. Erm I mean, your getting a bike key. Well I haven't yet. What we'll have to do,yo yo Where will you be at twelve then Joan? did you think you knew someone or is that the one that you saw? Erm I'd seen one this morning but she isn't in the core lecture so she's no good to you, but I said to her could you give me a lift at all? You know, at any time during the week? She said, any time at all if we're at the same time. I said, you in Thursday? She said no. That's what I want you for ! But I do kno , I know another girl, I don't know her well, but she does do core lectures. Cos it might be somebody is Well I'll find out what she's doing er Biology. Yeah. You know, you know Yeah. you'll recognise her when you get But there. Joan's just said she thinks she knows someone that's in core lectures that comes up from our way. She comes from our way see, so she'd come through your way Oh does she? so er, I I can ask her anyway. Yeah. Well we hope that we might Might do. sort of, see her Yeah. probably, twelve-ish and Yeah. Yeah. Right , will you be in the We'll be in the corridor. Yes, that'll be Yeah, we will be in Yeah. there then. We'll be in the corridor at twelve. Okay. Yeah. Tarrah! Thanks a lot. Tarrah! Oh I thought that was Alice then! But it wasn't. Got that on. I've got a couple of erm, really going to be specific to do essay writing, but I need to get in the subjects in. But I've got plenty to read up o , I've read my criminology. I want to read my physics also. So that's more than enough for this morning ! And I've got a chapter to read for American Studies. No, if if you fail this coming back after Christmas I didn't actually Oh! They've left their lights on here. Left their lights on. Someone's going to have a flat battery! Mm. It's John.. Ha, ha, ha! I've got to go and tell the teacher this morning Alex needs to stay till twenty past three cos they only want them to stay till half two. But there's nothing I can do, it's very inconvenient I know. alright. And we've been waylaid on Ah. the way back by another mother. And then I better go and see Annette to tell her. To straighten it up. How do you organise them to baby-sit for? I mean, they're alright you don't get a mess? Children. Yes. Erm Rob and Polly's mum's picking Simon up and taking him home and erm, Annette's picking up most nights Gary's gonna be home just after four so it's actually someone to take them home. But tonight, he's got his first staff meeting till half five so tonight there's extra Extra to pick up. This year that we ever had the party. We haven't had this fifty pounds have we, off the gas The gas board? Do you know what I thought? You've got another bill haven't you? Yeah. Why Yeah. don't we get a great big saucepan lid he can give them bill? We could er, the trouble was that the meeting for the people that we were going to decide Right. how much wasn't held until after I'd gone up for the money for Matthew's back. Oh yeah. And he And didn't know what had been happening because he wasn't at the meeting. Enjoyed yourself . Mm. I know. And the company who's in on it was Christmas Did you want to go? Do you want to go? I'm going to we go how do we get the, I'm absolutely Alright then. exhausted! Er I'm gonna to go. Tarrah for now! See you guys Monday. That's right. Tarrah! I don't think fifty pound will cover it do you? Well how many, how much is wrong? I don't know. Where would you go? I think we could do with doing like we said and asking St. Edwards if they've any. Did we think we about the old staff did you say? Erm on there but it's Yeah, it is, it isn't closing. Oh isn't it? No, well not yet, they're hoping for a takeover bid. Oh! Machine. I don't reckon everybody's gone home Well when I say , they're certain, a big one. Like one of those great big ones that you use in the school. Yeah, there is a to do anything. Oh! Well se , she's now, she's given up, they've got a paper shop at Blaby I think. Mm. I dunno whether she does it. They want to try and get her home instead of going in a school. I mean what Oh yeah. we've said it, if we can accumulate our own pots and pans, we'll be like before they're there for everybody up here to use. Well exactly , yeah. Because everybody is beginning to meet Yeah. Well Maureen's doing a bit of catering now Yes. as well. And, it's we like Yeah. we said it's easier for us than to keep borrowing Eileen's every year Yeah. True. Because, if we start building up. We're building up the crockery. Yeah. We could do with building up the . Because we , even if we ever came to a final close if Yeah. we ever had to Well how much are a big pan? How much are they? Well we don't know, but I've tried the education authority, they haven't got any in stores at the moment. Where would we go for it And I wondered about Chedderton Er, that, no th that St. Andrews. Is it in that little square ? St. Andrew's Place. I bet it was shut. Well I'll start at Old Street. Yeah,th The County Caterers Yeah. I think it is. I've er, oh I've been there. I've to get Friday off. They're very expensive though! Because I've been to catering things I was , you see, when the Head was closing. Yeah! Teddleton whether they would have any. But I Oh yeah! I tried ringing them and I didn't get any answer on the phone Oh! you see, so I didn't try again, but maybe tomorrow if I think about it Yeah. in the morning I'll try it again. Well is this the place at ? It's not, it's St. Andrews Is it? Place. Why is that It's erm one ? down George Street. It's just a shop right at George Street. Coming up from the baths. Go past And there's a, like a little square, a little set back of shops. And it's set back like that on the crossroads. Oh! Yeah! By It's near the castle? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You have to go in and have a look at what they've got. Yeah. You know. Well I was thinking that fifty pounds off the gas board. No. But we haven't actually had a set amou , although they said that there would be money coming Mm. nothing came out of the last committee meeting to a definite, this is definite this. Well I mean er we could always have raffles ourselves anyway! I mean, you could, you know what I mean, used to have a little raffle every week. In fact, we've had See we bro , we bought , we bought six turkey tins Yeah. rather than keep using the big tins for the school. Yeah, the school. I mean, they're ninety nine pence a tin and turkey tins stowed for years so I don't think these are gonna come to any harm over No! the next five or ten No. years. They'll have paid for themselves. Yeah. What did you think of then? Er,we well I thought And wo we these warehouses Maureen has a ticket ou , have you a ticket I've got one. Do they sell them there? Not large catering ones, I haven't Oh! . So the we want somebody in th , do we know anybody who, in a hotel who would get some like er Well we do have a contact at a hotel. I thought you might have Sandra Oh I know! I mean, let's Who? face it, there's not many. Oh! . Who? We have a contact in a large hotel in the town Well this is what I thought. It might be worth asking mightn't it? Fabulous! Yeah! If they could order you some and then, you know And like in a very Have you any money in the house? Yes. Yes! All of five pounds No we haven't it's have we! No. No. No. Well I mean, if you bought them and then you're building up during the year, but you know, we can always have them for See apparently education now, we're on a such a cut back that they've Yeah. recycled them so much by the time we get back to school they've had it! Well, I'm afraid, I look at it, like, that if you've run out of. Yeah. Yeah. That's the time isn't it? And then if you started off in here But bearing in mind we use four of the big ones Yeah. right, so for starters, one isn't any good. No. Yeah but Wo , I mean one is a start but erm, in that I may as well still got a half a dozen off the school. How much is she paying for school? Yeah. How much do you think They're bound to be at least sixty, to eighty pounds a pan I would think, if not A pan? Never! Oh you, well they I bet you you're not going to be far short of at least that much per pan. I mean an ordinary What type can you get? strong saucepan Yeah. ordinary household now, you're looking at thirty pound! Or depending, yeah , now I mean it, I mean Mind you , you don't have to do, with it being gas , you don't have to have a solid thing No. thing do you? The aluminium No. ones are alright aren't they? Er, providing That's what I want. but you see being catering, they come heavier and thicker Yeah. anyway because of Yeah. the amount of time that they're the stove. Yeah. That's true. Mm. Anyway, I might you'd have to ask wouldn't you? Yeah. And I mean, it's great! I mean, er the thing is if you've got a name and you want to that's the time to work for it in that little Mm. thing Will we have individual pies? Yeah. And I suppose, instead of doing pie and peas Yeah. we'd do stew Do a lot of . I see! Yeah! Yeah. Oh! Makes a change. That's a good idea! Yeah. Except I see! with the crusty tart. Oh. And the raffle. The thing is now, when will you be ? Er Perhaps a tenner. They're not prepared to settle for sarnies and a cake on the side. Well that's You see so popular you see Sandra And unfortunately we have one Yo , you know when the lady who doesn't eat it but brings the bowl. Yeah, and she serves him herself. That's an improvement on a plastic bag! Yes, we take the meat pie home in a plastic bag! Can't you say pie and peas then? Oh! No! What? Er so I mean, we're, we're, we'll say Oh! Well have you had to make them? we really need to start. No! Oh, well they do Home Economics yo at school you know. I wonder if I could get them through the education. Yeah! Well, you know, it's worth asking her. She might she might just know! The more people you ask, the better the ! Yes, I've got something. Yes. Who said I'm sure I don't know. Yes she at the church used to do function years and years, you know, she permission and what have you. Well, I mean, Glenda er, she's home economics isn't she? See Glenda on Friday. Well mention it in passing Righto! and then if not, I will have a word with the contact here, the contact for the Yeah. hotel wear. Well, or if you ask Have you asked sorry! I was going to say I'll ask Glenda on Friday Yeah. you can tell me what to say to Yeah. her then I Well you can ask her if you want. probably be better. I suppose. Yeah! Well one of us will remember whoe , I mean, the thing is, I've so much on I could Yeah. forget by Yeah. Yeah. You see, and we, we remember last time we did something, we'd go down into a or scout movement where Yeah. they have large pans, but even they were looking for some large pans! Larger pans. Yes. So Would have, yeah. they want using when they're here otherwise it's pointless, it's like pots Buying, yeah. and pans,th th the crockery Yes. if it's here it's not much point leaving it for once a year. Oh no! I mean It , it's got that er Yeah. to be used otherwise True it's waste of space. Yes! Yeah! But er the pans would be the same. If we Yeah. do get them, if Yes you see they go in stock Yeah. as long as erm there's space found there for them. Yeah. The trouble is, we're bringing so much stuff in it's just the amount of space ! Beryl. Well they can't say a lot Well I think it's their, they're catering as well! But I mean, it wasn't I might have down to have proper plates the amount of True! you might have spent a of time Oh! washing up, but it was a darn sight better than paper Yes it was. plates! Those were awful! When are you Yeah. putting your And the plastic. Valentine's Day Yeah! I mean up for sale? St Valentine's Day. I did, I'm just, they're flogging the races you know. Oh are they? Cos I'll have two Yeah. for that. Oh do you? I've, I've got one but I've got nobody to go with! Oh! Why don't you come with us? Well me and Jimmy are going! Well I refu , I I mean Henry won't come out No. and I bought one so, I said to him I can't afford Well me and Jimmy are coming, and you're coming aren't you Mary? four pounds for a dance if I'm not coming Oh yeah! but I don't mind two pounds for a race night. Well,and Barry and we have a lot of table and be on there! Yeah, well me and Jimmy are going just . It is the Yeah, cos I bought a ticket. er Oh! Erm, also we , twenty who else? twenty Something like the twenty eighth? Twenty fourth. Oh. I've just given her twenty pounds, she's got no change so she's going to drop me the pound in. So if you've got twenty pound in January or later on February yeah. I don't know. I've got twenty pounds at home. Yeah. Has she got the twe , she's know how much Yes. to give me? Yeah. Yeah I told her. Oh right! That'll be seventy two. Yeah. And I told her to keep the twenty for that stuff in there. Well you'll have to come in on the way ho Yeah. mind Yeah. you Oh it doesn't matter now. I did say I wasn't staying. I better go! In the morning you can give it me. Do you want another go before you go? Have another Er , well it's not so much that, I keep looking at the clock and then we'll he'll be, he'll Well I'm staying up for one more game thinking that you and he's got to put his You , you can still have one more game, Pat, me and you and Yeah. and the others. Well I'll have one. Oh we can put her on then. Er Cos I have enough staff Now for a long time. Mary Gerry Pat Pat And Sandra. And Sandra Right then. There's a . Oh where's my racquet gone? Where have I put it? On the chair, look. A , between those chairs. Up there. Right. Come on then. You're gonna have to start with three I need . Right! So it's er Don't shout! Mary, Gerry, Pat, and Sandra. I can play with Gerry can I? Yeah. Yes. You both go on next and then we'll run you home while you're Yes, you go. So I'll see you erm Thursday. Thursday and, yeah. Half past one. Rest of conversation inaudible. They're in a hall playing badminton or something so too far away and a lot of shouting and laughing all at once. Impossible! Always the lady that co that come round isn't it? Or is that the lady with Oh! the colleges? I don't know, now The one . Mm. Must have come from Keele doesn't she? Oh yes! Henry . Oh! Oh yeah. Mm. . Right. When's he placing the order? He's not late at the moment, so What? Who's he placing the order with? Erm well all the groups are going to have be changed around, er, from February erm I don't exactly know yet Mm. at the moment who, who, who you'll be er, taught by, because it really depends on er how the timetable works out. I think it'll be different groups. Probably, er I don't know even, you know,th the groups may not rema , remain the same. It depends on how your timetables work out and er, how the available tutors' timetables work out. Right. So it maybe a bit different. Erm Will it still be this room or will Erm it be a different room? no , it won't be this Oh! room. No. I was going to say that, definitely because Yeah. because it's a room and I won't be involved Oh right. from er the point of view Thank you. of that. Mm. Erm well it'll be useful I think for you, I me , assuming that peoples' timetables may well have changed a bit since er, the beginning of last term it'll be useful if you Hello. Sorry I'm late. it'll be useful if you would fill one of these in Mine hasn't. for us again please. Oh! Have you got mi , do you want me to do it again anyway? Er Cos mine isn't altered. Isn't it? Erm It'll yours won't. I know, well mine Well you might as well do it as Do it again? if all the others are doing it. I think I've probably still got yours but As for what subject, I'm not sure what it's gonna be cos I've gotta pass in the Yo no , you're not sure yet? I don't know. Oh! But I can put in But I think, aren't they always , their timetables are at the same time aren't they, the topics? Well yes, we have everything at . Oh I see! Oh yeah, well you've obviously passed if they . That's right. Yeah. Erm, I was just saying this before you came in Hannah that er er they'll probably be quite different groups from the beginning of February and certainly will be er a change of tutor as far as you're concerned cos I won't be involved in the . And I can't er, so you'll, you know you will be this, for this three, for three weeks in erm in er January. Yes. So is the erm, tutorials likely to change? Well we haven't had Oh of course, yes! all of a sudden it will change. Yeah. They'll be a different tutor and a, a different room obviously we Mm. whichever tutor'll be with you and Tutor. tutor will probably Especially when we've been going well. That's a shame! Yeah, last year we got so much equipment ah the that's just a there, but Mm mm. you know Ah! That's Oh that's a quarter Oh! Ju , is anyone likely, oh thanks very much. I haven't bothered to put myself down for tutorial or shall No don't do it? don't bother because actually And the , the core topic at the bottom is only two weeks so This one here, you want? Yeah. Yeah. The education for the afternoons starts in Is that two weeks from January? Yeah, it's a Friday, and then another Friday but just the other ones And that's our core is it? that's it, yeah. Ah! Well you can cross that out ta actually because it's really er, only from the beginning of February is it? Or well you se No, well that you see anything Yeah. that happens before the beginning of February you can leave out. I think it's . I think, I I'm positive it finishes by the end of term. What that one? Yeah. This is your one is it? Yeah. Yeah. And that's going to on to February is it Eh? this topic you've got? Er Yes. I can't re , I I can't remember when we exactly started, I've got quite a lot this term. Yeah. I see. Right. Oh right. Oh well. Is anyone likely to see Fran ? Tomorrow probably. In a class do you mean, or Mm. oh well, she probably be there cos she's, she's got flu. Oh! Erm other than er does anyone, is she friend of anyone in this group? Is anyone likely to see her other than in classes? No? Erm cos I want to have her try and go with er Shall I hold onto it and try and find out? Try and sort her thing out. Yeah but what ha , any idea when you might be able to find out? Yeah, I'm gonna try and get into . Ah! I see. That's probably when it will be. But it will be er, er this week ? Oh yeah! Mm. Yeah, well, as soon as you can er, let me know that. Shall I borrow it? ? Do you mind if I borrow them? No, it don't matter, no. But don't forget to let me have it will you? Yeah , okay. Put it in your book or your folder there . Oh I . Having got You have put your names on have you? What's it meant to be? Erm a little Pardon? hardback one but I don't know if it's right one. I thought . Is it? Which Oh yes! Just put it in there. Oh yeah. Oh actually, hang on! It's one of these . Must be your day isn't it ? Mm. Yeah. I don't think I've got that one. This is erm er th er th , from, from February onwards, up to the end of the May, in fact anything that's likely Yeah. Mm. to affect your, you know, it's a big extra demand on your time over that period, first of February to end of May. Cos that's, that's the er I've put it , oh I've put it that goes to the summer doesn't it? Cos the education will then come on to Thursday, Friday isn't it? After Easter. No, it's not, they've changed it around a bit. No. No. But it comes So that onto Thursday and Fridays. Does it? Yeah. But don't know So does it affect your Yeah! You don't know yet. If if it's go , well yo , we don't know because they don't, they haven't put out exactly when it is, whether it No, second years. Oh! I didn't know either. Yeah. Well is it erm isn't it? is it a kind of first come, first served sort of No. Won't be, it expands Will you able to pick in the summer and they take over two more Must be the heat that does it ! It must be the heat that does it! Yeah. And we only know that if it goes on for Monday afternoons for an hour, instead of Yeah. being an hour it's going onto two hours Mm. and it's going to be afternoons. So when it But apparently it will go on into the being Fridays, but Oh I see! Oh well you may find you might have to renegotiate something in the summer term then I suppose, but you'll just have to see it how it works out. Mm. I suppose we could always, you could always swap with somebody in groups couldn't we? Yes. There's likely to be four groups meeting Right. at times, so erm there's likely to be one group that is late Yeah. and er erm ah yes! Oh my gosh! Mm? So does everyone know what er Bless you! Your pushing your luck now dear aren't you? ,you what I meant . All very complicated, yeah. I think there's a ri Oh yeah. There. some notes here that have been here all, all the vacation, I think they're yours aren't they? Oh! They are, yeah. They've been next to my telephone for four weeks. Right well there's not much space left is there ! Convenient! Does anyone know what subjects Francine is doing? Don't know. No. Do , would she start the day off as it's a, a long Yes. day Yes. Oh right. Erm does anyone know if she's Would she go to criminol , does she do criminology? I don't know. I don't think that she does. Er, do do do you know if she's likely to ha to have any timetable changes this term, do you know? I have no idea. Oh no I think she's on she's still in F Y isn't she? Oh yes Yeah. so she'll Is she? be on our course, it won't change It'll be the same? much. Mm. So we, I can use the time table she Yeah. gave me last term then? Right. Okay. Tt! Erm sorry about this, but er it's a sort of a chore we have to do at this stage. Erm now is there anything else I need to tell you? Erm you'll be getting a new set of essay titles soon, that is for the second semester from February to erm the end of . Erm, and the deadline for those would be in the summer term. But erm I'm compiling a list at the moment on tutors and er I'll be able to let you know the probably next week I should think. Mm. Erm but in the meantime those are the first essays I can er erm are you erm, working on that or thinking about that? Mhm Mm. Mm. But Mhm. Right , okay, thinking is the first step in the way that you know. Okay. What else is there? The the exam, for part of your assessment will be in much the same form it'll be in two parts er recreating to the two parts of the course and,yo , you'll get roughly the same number of questions as the than the essay questions that you have with each each semester. And they'll cover roughly the same topic areas. It obviously won't be the same questions but the same sort of areas will be covered on it. Any, any questions about that? Do you have a choice on that or is it compulsory all questions? Is it what? Is it a compulsory set of questions on or do we have a choice? Well you have a You just said choice so that Yeah but you How many questions do you have to answer? you , I think it's er, the case that you have write four four answers four you know, do do four questions, so you do Two from each? two from each. Oh! That's it. Right. And erm In three hours is it? Three hours, yes that's Oh good! right. That's some doing ! How many words do you expect? Well , the usual. Well do you're not bothered about the amount, are you more concerned with the quality? Oh well er, quality is more important than quantity, but obviously if the quantity is very tiny,i it is there's not much room for quality. Mm. Gordon Bennett! I mean a co a couple of pages of good quality stuff would be fine, in the time, you know, if people sometimes people write half a book in that time but er Trouble is, how legible it's not always do you want it ! Oh it's got to be reasonably legible. I mean, we do make all sorts of allowances with exams you know, people repeat words and th and they can leave words out and they can't think of a eloquent way of expressing that something at the spur of the moment so it's Can you keep a dictionary? a as long well I don't think so. I,yo yo , you spend too much, you waste too much time. But erm what we're looking for is th , what you've learnt and er, the ability to think for yourself and erm all sorts of scrappiness and inaccuracies and you know, all that, we've we make allowances for, because that happens under the pressure of time and erm nerves. And erm The what about plans into consideration as well? Erm Erm it's a very, it's always a good idea to do a plan, cos yeah, spend five minutes or so planning and jot down a rough plan and it might be that we would, we wo , we would normally ignore, ignore the plan when marking but if, you haven't finished a question and er, it's a bit thin we might look at your plan to get some idea of what you would actually written Yeah. and you might get one or two marks from that, so you don't it's always a good idea to do a plan. Is the pass mark forty six or fifty six? Ah erm, I ha And do you have to pass those papers with twenty six points? It's erm I think it's one paper isn't it? Er, there two parts Over two parts, yes. Two parts one Do you have to have those oh, so it counts as one Erm anyway. it's all, I think it's marked overall, I mean Yes. it's a percentage Mm. of the overall paper. And erm I always think it's a bit funny about pass marks because I don't think you know, this is worth fifty percent and then I think what's a, now what's the pass mer mark? And I tend to think now, does this, is this work a pass? And Mm. they, if, I mean, if the pass mark is ninety percent and I've already decided it's worth a pass then I give it ninety percent you see ! Mm. Or you know, it's that way round, and you decide Mm. whether it's you know. I mean it's a bit arbitrary where you put the pass by a mark Mm. actually ! Mm, I suppose it's hard Er marking, yeah. but you ju , you know, you judge how good it is Mm. and then you decide on the percentage in relation to how good the piece is. Do pe people mark the papers or is it just one? Erm brurgh urgh urgh! Well, finals are always double marked, I'm not quite sure about this. I think they are double marked, yeah. I think so. They should be. But Well, yeah I was just, you you could see them for, just thinking that perhaps you could be slightly biased in one when Mm. the other lecturer might seem to be Yeah. the other way and like Well that's right. giving us a more or Yeah, well we always less mark. Well, finals are always double marked er, because of that. Er yeah, but when you've got a big pile of papers your judgement gets impaired after you've you've er You've got fed up and say had several hours and getting bored with the same answer over and over again! Just as if it's ! Yeah that's I think you'll find that. Yeah, so you know, er counter-marking the normal practice. Erm if you get a problem just trying to remember what what we did last year. I think it was it was double marked. Did many people fail last year? Th the question , yes the exam erm exam was double marked with, the question arose as to whether the essay should be double marked, because obviously they are part of the assessment. Mm. And I think er, I'm hoping,sh , not quite sure what we decided about that. In principle they should be because they are part of erm your assessment. But, I'm not sure, I'll have to enquire about that. Er, what was the other somebody Jus else was saying that Yes, I was just saying what was your pa , did Oh! many people fail? Can't remember, but it no we don't expect to fail people. I mean, we do look for things on the papers to try and justify giving people marks, you know, we're not sort of out to fail you. We're out to pass you really, but we we won't unless it's worth it, but erm the emphasis is on trying to find something there to give a mark to sort of thing rather than the other way around. Er I can't remember wha , erm happened last year. Er, there may be one there may have been one that failed, I'm not sure but they probably did a resit and got through in September. Er, you don't want to evolve with that do you? I didn't realise you could do resits actually. Well the the tutor . Erm Ooh! You may be able to, but you might have trouble with your your grant giving authority Yeah. because er they're I see. not too keen on paying for another year. Does that go for all subsid if you fail your subsid you can retake? I think you can take another Retake the exam you mean? No, I think you usually mita , submit a another piece of work or something like that. Oh!? Yeah. Yes I'm I'm not quite sure the regulations are about subsids We, I mean we , it's only quite recently that we have had a subsidiary, erm, last two or three years, we've, for many years we didn't have one. So, it's not a thing I'm very familiar with. And they always seem to changing that as well you see ! Oh! Er, any more, any last questions on anything you don't know? If you want to ask I'll explain to you about the course, and the exams the rest of it. What sort of percentage do the erm essays that we hand in before the exams I think it counts of the mark? for fifty percent of the overall assessment. Oh does it? Right. Yes,th the two essays Yeah. combined would that's fifty percent of your overall, so the exam is the other fifty percent. So can already be well set, you know. Mm mm. If you with good essays. Right, well, let's get on with something. Erm Sharon who you heard la last night at the Brilliant! Oh! She was lovely! Really, really good! Was it good? Yeah. Oh! So Yeah. it was good. Er, she runs the whole of this course, and erm she's been with the school for years. Erm this was erm all about the gypsies wasn't it? Mm mm. Oh yeah. Yes. Ho how do you well you really sees, seem to have been quite erm, well, was it her approach do you think? I think Well she's so Or a vivacious about it! Oh! So enthusiastic! Enthusiastic! Enthusiastic? really chatty as well. Mm. Yes. Yes. She actually made it interesting, because I think you think, oh dear, gypsies! But yo you couldn't help but take things in. Mm. And th th th the er recommended reading side I think. That, yeah. Yeah. I did have er upon my door from the last week in last term was a saying er, you know this one, I don't know if you've had this? Yeah. Did you get this one last night or did Yeah. We got it from down there. you collect it from round here? Part of the reading. Mhm. Erm She did, by the way, give us next week's as well, so you don't have to Oh good! put next week's up. Yes I thought she probably had. Yeah. Mm. Erm, the other thing is that in the Nuffield erm it sometimes er er in the, in the book er list, and sometimes it's in the photocopy books, so you have to check both and if it's a book that's been erm not come into the library over the last fourteen months you've er, you also need to check the erm Von Ryan catalogue. It's all a bit complicated! It'll be be much more straightforward when they've got the whole thing on the computer but at the moment it's a transitional phase. I went er, in to check whether these were available last week, just to make sure they were available and, they we , they had been reserved last term but I went to check and, I found so much difficulty finding my way around that I, er, I almost concluded that they weren't there and I couldn't get them and in the end. You feel sympathetic to how Yeah. we've been all term! in the end it turned up Because this is how we've Yeah. on every subject! It turns out in the end that, that, all the readings were in there it's just a matter locating them! Finding them. Yeah! And I was looking out through the door and you haven't got five minutes longer. Yeah. Well this reading is actually in, in the corner of the book, you know, so it's in the, the list of books. And it's nineteen eighty three so it should be it wouldn't on the catalogue yet. Er, but the next week's reading erm with chapter by, er from a book by Smith is actually a photocopy so you'd find that in the list of photocopies. So, I'm sorry it's so complicated and the final week's reading is also a book er erm the actual book is got rid of that chapter. So er, you better, you'd better check both catalogues erm catalogue to be sure it's there. And if it doesn't seem to be there ask Phil because, you know that is that only by asking him that I discovered that these worked last week. Aha. So he's that sort of sma , small bearded chap, of course. I think quite helpful on those. Mm. Mm. He'll probably sa What about these essays then? ask . Cos he I'm so is this Photostat. That's a pho , yeah that's a photocopy Thank you. er from the work so that you won't find the book in there but you'll find a photocopy of that . But, but you've just gotta be very persistent and th there are things out now, and locate Phil and he'll he'll tell you what's . I hate that one! Do you? Yes it's much easier. I mean, it's bound to get easier when it's all been fully computerised. At the moment it's all chaotic and things. Excuse me. Right, so didn't have the requirements and what did you learn about gypsies Mm. then? They've got very definite ideas about their size and outstanding Mm. Mm. Mm. Mm. Mm. Er, certainly are no gypsies here. Yeah . I often wonder you know, whether they don't like your money cos you'd amazed at however much wealth they possess, but if you do get inside it's amazing the collection that they that they round here, they used to collect red glass, and er Spode Mm. and they used to be caravan down on Lyme by the park and Mm. standing outside it was no different than anything else, but the minute you got inside Mm. one vase on the ledge would be two, three thousand pounds worth of red glass! Unbelievable! they got a , the Th , that is a big family round here isn't it Yeah. the gypsies? Mm. That's it. And There's a family at Stafford as well, they live on part of it and they actually bought a field off I don't know if you know the bypass at Stafford, the Mm mm. site? Yes. And there's a field there, and there's nothing, a couple of ponies in it and a caravan and when one of those died is it last year, or the year before there was one of the biggest funerals ever seen! And they came from abroad and they had a Yes. big wake round here for the Mm. the family. Mm. So erm they're, they're a quite a distinct ethnic group aren't Mm. they? Although Very! they and er they've been around for centuries of course but er erm there's all sorts of myths about them some of which are half-truths and some which un-truths. Er but er they've not been studied a great deal by er in, in this country at any rate. Judith Oakley is er as you know, is the was an anthropologist who, who did do a study of gypsies. Erm, there's been one or two others, erm a guy called Thomas who studied er gypsies also, and learnt their language, languages, really erm a bit before Judith Oakley. But, apart from there's not been a great deal of er anthropological study of gypsies a as an ethnic group and you know, studying their and their relationship with the the common population. Erm so it's in terms of erm er, careful logical field work erm there's not a great deal of information, but there's,th , there have been early anatomical historical er investigations and there is something a literature erm dating from early in the nineteenth century which and it shows you the bloke who also resolves to, to, to make comparisons with what she found. Erm I suppose what we ought to focus on, is not so much the details of the ethnography so came up from the study, but erm but some of them are almost thieves which I think erm Sharon was trying to emphasize last night. She was looking at the the question of self-scripture, and she has as a a criteria for differentiation or some, or as you might say boundary marks, it's a question of boundaries between different groups. Erm quite commonly, gypsies have been defined by geourgos, it says, by the predominant er you know, house-growing population. Erm how far that actually is accurate er, designation of them as a a group, is, is debatable. Certainly, they have their own quite distinct way of other people. Did you see that evening about the others what, the so- called Tinkers. Those that aren't true Gypsy or Romany Ju just travellers. just the, just those that tag round because they've Yeah. nowhere else to live and Well unfortunately they frustrate them. according to this, these excerpts from Judith Oakley's book, they're a bit sort of flexible in the definition of these though depending on who they're talking to, you know. Er, for some purposes er other groups are excepted as as part of the Romany , for all the purposes they're not, but then they said, it depends if it serves their interest to say we're the true gypsies and they're not Mm. then they'll say that ! But, if on the other hand, it serves their interest it serves their interest to see the other group as, as the as themselves they'll say that ! Oh right ! So, I mean th the thing is, they are erm they are minority group. Erm in some ways they're persecuted bu , but they tend to get pushed around from post to post. Mm. Erm but there's a, quite a strong prejudice against them from erm the, the population. Not uncalled for And certainly though in many er Pardon? not uncalled for though in many respects. No. No, I think there's there's reasons Yeah. for it. Yeah. Certainly reasons for it. But, the thing is that they their attitude towards the dominant group and their behaviour towards the dominant group is going to be erm influenced by how perceive their like the treatment , so they're quite prepared to change their er erm the story they present as it was, about themselves to outsiders, depending on how they see the outsiders erm as likely to react towards them. If they see, some advantage in putting something in a particular way, they'll do that. They'll manipulate the situation. Yeah. Yeah. Now, this is, to some extent this is perhaps to be expected of any group which is erm which runs the risk of being persecuted and then, they will be But they probably persecuting themselves leading the risk . Mm. And then they control their own power then. Mm. Unless they . Yes. And after,yo , you can se , there's a, there's a clash of, a clash of cultures here Mm. isn't there? And I think there's a lot of Cos the true gypsies , the true Romany wandering gypsies tend not to settle Yeah. in that sense, and Mm. don't actually make the sort of mess that, what we call gypsies, the tinkers, when they're Yeah, but even when they move on just the travellers. even when they move on they . But those are not, I don't think those are the true gypsies. Those are what we call Tinkers and the Irish call the Diddicois and the wanderers Or those are the ones that going away tend to leave. Yeah. It , it's But I think it,th the wa , the way in which gypsies and geourgos, to use that terminology, interpreted, er interpret the same situation but in, in quite different Mm. ways. It's quite illustra , well illustrated in this , er this erm extract from Judith Oakley's book. How do you Best, it's the idea of dirtiness. Mm. Erm gypsies have a complete, er th th they have a very, very different view of what is dirty and what is clean but it's a very different clean from what, er the general population. And they regard, they regard geourgos as dirty people, just as typically , erm the house- growing population tends to regard them as di dirty. But they've got a different perception of dirtiness which is which involves ideas of ritual purity and impurity. A bit similar to some of the, the I think in in, in a lo , attitudes towards other . Erm er but some high cast Hindus, for instance, will not eat food which which has had a shadow of another person cast over them. Well gypsies the, the gypsies they refuse to eat erm while a, while another person's shadow has fallen on them, especially if the other person is a ritually unclean person, namely, one of us. Erm How did erm, Judith Oakley ? I, I don't know. I haven't actually read the whole book, and er and whole of that er and obviously pa , this is part expla , observation Yeah. which She must have really wanted to. And er sa , getting an appropriate way in, to something like that is, one of the main problems of that . Yeah. Erm, how she did it, I'm not sure. Mm. Perhaps you could ask er Sharon but she's a . And tha , that is invariably a problem. If you were going to do, if you decided you wanted to do research on gypsies and, you yourself, a lot of gypsies er, and you decide th the best way to do it is to which gives a kind of subjective insight to their own lifestyle and thinking. Then, it, it's immediately a problem, how do we get in, we've got to have some kind of role which is acceptable to the people you're studying. Mm. again I mean, because there's always a load of Well that's right. isn't Yes. there? Yeah. I mean But one thing about partic , observation is, that is involves actually living with the people you're studying for a fair amount of time is Mm. traditionally Mm. be developed by people who go to study childhood societies over the other side of the world and er you know, you stayed there, several months or a year or two, so it's not just for a a brief visit. So, erm you really live Who finances this sort of? Pardon? Who finances it? Oh! Well, I suppose that erm erm, organizations like the Economic and Social Research Mm. Council, although, the amount of money they give for this kind of research is pretty sparse! Erm but if you don't get a grant you, you do it on the side out of, you know, in location Yeah. using your own salary as it were. But to erm get it left in terms of reputation royalties on your books, and things like that. Anything that er legally fundable erm will have to be done and published , which may be that . So what I was gonna say was, that, that partic ,partic er participant observations typically involves actually living with the, the study for a fair amount of time, so erm although they might tell you a pack of lies initially you can actually observe what they're like, what they do and see whether they fit what they've said and as time goes on you ha hope to develop some kind of rapport with them so that they might totally understand . Sa so, in time you hope to get sufficiently accepted erm to be told the truth or in fact, a bit nearer the truth. You can never be quite sure actually! But, there are ways of checking,yo you can you can, obviously compare words and then perhaps you can er invariably time about the situations and draw your own conclusions as to whether they were telling you a lie earlier on. And there's lies and lies,as well aren't there ? Er people make up deliberately to be telling you lies but they still, in some sense, trying to give you a favoured view which is a out and out lie. So this is one of the regular problems you've got and er erm it's not a kind of strictly scientific detective way of studying gypsies er but it, a bit of which, which gets rich material, er yo you get into the the actual way of thinking of the people you're studying. To a great extent rather than a a formal interview . So there are problems,i it's it's quite, it's rather , there's two criteria which are obviously applied to this, as a research methods, one is validity, and one being reliability. Validity means you're actually getting what you think you're getting. which er . Reliability is much to, much more to do with replicability, it's, it's another if another researcher went in and did it the same way, would they get the same results? Well, usually with this sort of, with the replicability, or reliability is pretty low. But validity can be quite hard with this sort of er because there's, there's detailed ways of and cross checking. Er and erm it's difficult for people to maintain er not only as I say, but in their lifestyle over a particular period of time, so you could be more likely to get at the truth by this method, than by sending out questionnaires. Imagine the er as an alternative method, you send out questionnaires to a set of gypsies would you get any replies at all? You'd probably the D H S S You might . then! Well with that, immediately you're gonna be suspicious Yeah I know. of, I don't know what they're called, but Oh! erm er, from the, probably that would be a non-starter as a research then wouldn't it? But even if you went in as researcher who's going to interview them, and a, and informal way which might be a more appropriate method, you'd still have considerable difficulty in that there is, they'll spin you a yarn and whatnot, you know what they wanted you think rather than what what they should. But participant observation you stand the best chance really of being able to check the accuracy of what,th they're telling you in terms of behaviour and wha , and what people say, and what different people say in those situations over the , so you know. Validity is quite high . A lot depends on the personality and style of the researcher, whether they're er how they're planning to how they relate to people. So obviously one researcher a very different er from what another person Oh! would get doing, researching the same people. So er what they get, what one person gets may well be true but it'll won't be the whole truth. Er, another bit of the truth might be got by another researcher and er so there will be differences in what two researchers, using the same method, would get. So, so a low, low reliability and type of researcher. It's qualitative rather than quantitative. And and it lends itself to interpretive kind of approach rather than a politics sort of approach which tends to be . Er, the purpose of this sort of research is to understand the context of meaning in people's minds wi with, in terms of they do. Er erm and that is typical of anthropologists. Erm this sort this sor , this sort of method was pioneered by particularly by erm somebody called Malonovski Er that's er the British Academic, but obviously Polish. Th the research in round about the first world war time, he used this sort of sort of pitching his tent up to the and staying there and learning their language and observing their rituals, getting to know them. And er prior to that, researchers had relied on from missionaries,, administrators and travellers and so on, which er mixed quality. And this method of actually going there living with them, learning their language and er so on s,really participating er would, finally there's a way of actually in a sense, getting of the people, the nearer you can, anyway, of course , it's relying on the people you stay with that you understand that something of the world comes over onto you so that imposing what's essential in and So, here what Judith Oakley's trying to do, is trying to understand how gypsies, themselves, differentiate , how do they define the boundaries between themselves and others. Erm er and erm two of the main er things, I mean, there's, there's ob , obviously erm the things like er they definitely . But, erm in terms of more subjective er , is er, the two, two particular features which are important, one is descent, how they reckon they descent. They reckon a true gypsy must have at least one true gypsy parent erm it's quite possible, er the the there's a fair amount of inter-marriage, you might be surprised to learn ! But the gypsies and geourgos but er a lot of gypsies have got one geourgo parent but, they would reckon that there must be some sort of descent, er er erm that, where they're aware of to qua , to qualify as a gypsy. So wo , one parent that must have a been gypsy or both. Er but, how they reckon descent is variable. This is one of the perhaps , it's not some kind of calculated thing, it depends on the circumstances. Erm er, and I think that was brought out fairly well in the . Th the variability on how they reckon descent in that sort of life. The other major seems to be, to do with ideas about what we would qualify , but could equally well be called ritual purity and impurity. And er she contrasts what erm except in official reports gypsy camp sites er er sort of say they're dirty and, terribly dirty er paint of picture of erm people with no civilized standards or er er, that's er, the geourgo view of it. Erm it, and as they sa , and as she says this tends to be er a description of a gypsy camps campsite which looks at the external surroundings of the caravans, but it doesn't actually look inside the caravan. Er if they did they'd find erm quite spotlessly clean interiors of the caravans but, in an area where there's all sorts of that a few yards away and quite carelessly dumped and left around. Er th th the the geourgo or, you know official view is that they're dirty because they never and er, they leave scrap metal around and everything and all kind of things. But, from one point, from that point of view it's quite true, I mean,i i if you define dirtiness in those terms, then they're dirty. But, er the gypsies define dirty in sort of quite different way. They haven't got this conception of that, that the inside and the outside of the body and what's important is to keep the inside clean and so, this is extended also to the caravans. Mm. Er the er the insides have got to be kept clean it doesn't about the surroundings are dirty so you know, it's quite okay to you know, throw your half-eaten bread out! So if you'd like to if you let me . Erm it's it's quite an elaborate erm set of beliefs about the, you know the dirty. Erm they regard the inside of the body as, as pure and to , and and essentially to be kept clean, but the outside is essentially unclean, say, you could have a dirty, dirty clothes but you're clean inside is the . I wonder they view erm ? Oh! So what was this play then? Puppet show? About the green knight. The green knight? Yeah. You know, a knight. Was he just called the green night or did Yeah. he have a name? Just the green knight he was called, cos he was green. Mm. And then there was this he sa the green knight said I am I having some chocolate? An an we one o , will one of the knights chopped Chopped off my head. That's the story I was thinking you were doing it today erm it's called the green knight, but he has a name doesn't he? Er, And he gives them er, a magic Yeah! The three things He gives three things that'll help him. I tho , isn't one a magic belt or something? Yeah a belt is what they I was about to say the magic belt. Oh! Oh I bet you timed that for tea time! What's he done to er . It's tea time just . For what? Well I'm going out later. Oh! Yeah! Yes. I'll come back tomorrow night. Alright then. Sandra I er get that. Okay. Hang on. No it's not mine. What's it for? Going out. Well I'm going out too. What as he done till now? Well I , he'll go back and find another door er, er back up to where he lives. business. Have you? Thanks a lot! You always seem to want a curry. Who's? Dad did! Dad did. His dinner'll be cold. So what happened to the green giant in the end? Well The green knight. All that happens right the the other knight er is and the green knight ran off and discovered that he didn't, you know the rest. He did initially, and I said him back. You shouldn't! Have they been in there? Has it been in there with the books? No, I didn't get that far. It's in the other room. No, he only got this far. Dog shite everywhere! Get some, smell it! No I don't want Then to! I'm having my tea! I'm not surprised because every time everybody won't put their foot down , the only one in this house to put their foot down, is me! Every time And I'm not you come in,a listen! It was across the before I could shout and say come back. No one! It's only me! No one! Which way did he come in? Back door. It don't matter! It does! Cos it means I put it up there . Well I'm sorry but But look! I want to I want to Look! Don't you worry about it! . Only cos they haven't checked round the . Mm. See, the last one in here you was already in. Dog shite! I haven't seen fucking all like that! Cleaned up all the time. Has he, has he walked through this carpet John? He's walked across as far as this middle door. Ye , I know! You already found out? Will I have to swear! Why have a dog? At least I know . I've finished! Beans! Come on! Er I'll pick them out. I don't want them! Well I'm sure he doesn't go on his own a , with shoes on like that! Well you haven't given us our . I don't care! Well I don't like that. Fuck! You'll never get that stain up! Of course, your dinner's going cold. Have you been in the other room John with this? No! I don't think, I shou , I shouted here. No! Here, then stop. About here? He got up to as far as the doorway, but I don't think any further. No he didn't. He then we went off playing! Dad! Don't! Will you stop that! Then all round here? Then as far as , no No! love. Just got as far as the door. Right. Urgh! Urgh! Just from out the pond? There's only one putting their foot down in this house! Don't care whether they're big or small! Come out the way. .Urgh! Oh! What a good boy! So the, you know that thing I was showing you about,th finding them bones the other night? Yeah. Did I put the thing in my pocket afterward? It doesn't matter anyhow. And I Well was, I knew that they were they might be still in here. I knew that they'd still written me a, a second letter, like asking permission to send it through the erm what do you call it? Er cos I owed the . Pardon! Come and have your tea first Hary. Them two are no good? No. They're not, so, I don't know what you've got papers with this for? Aha. Well Mike gives his permission so Yeah, well I don't know, that's what I said, I don't know why you've got John, look! it. Remember that thing I told you about the bones the other night? Yeah. I said there were the that county record form and this man asked me from the museum that handled it if he could send them back to erm to Wiltshire. Why, was it er found ? Oh! Yeah. No, it's not been found before. So they're being sent back and he said there was a county record found. You shouldn't ask Jonathan. Jonathan couldn't persuade him. Who's that? I want,ca , I wanna ta Jonathan! take one of these? At mother's, you know? David. Ah! That's right. Mum, I wanted to take one of these to school and Aye. I don't think Did you? it's feasible cos they got Mum! You could have told me! Oh ! What did you do with the dog then? What? Are you feeding him on ? No. Oh! I bet you've studied about every pile of dog muck ! Is he back yet? No. Seen the headlines here? Asda's sixty five million pound losses. Who? Asda. Well a bunch of the others too were down at . Mm? Three hundred and fifty redundancies at head office. Twenty million written off for launch of the new distribution system . Well just goes to show you! They're depending upon you and me and other people aren't they? Mm. That's who, in fact, they're living off. Yes? And they get to keep putting up bloody prices like they're living on, on on people! On the poor! You're giving it all to their profit. Right? Mhm. Mm? Mhm. Has to be improved, like isn't it? I always knew that! I could have done a little the papers let them off of the hook for years! Mm. Sainsburys is er the very one that has done it for years! And I'm sure Tescos, and have been here the longest Mm! ge , and not the new firms have started that. Seen this? Brian created a piece of history when he invited his former teacher to a special church service. V I P guest was Roman Catholic leader Cardinal Basil Hume . They're not on about again. I can't get away from it! No. His name John . Sheriff. Oh where are they? Staffordshire. What's this for? Former pupil at Ampleforth College in Yorkshire . Yeah? Where Cardinal Hume was his housemaster. Yeah? And he was appointed the county's high sheriff, he decided to invite his ex-teacher to attend the traditional church service to mark the opening of high court session. The service at St. Mary's Mm. and the tenth centre was attended by civic dignitaries . St. Mary's? It's the church that's in in the middle of the shopping you know, it's got all the grass round it. Well tha , that's the county chur , that's the town of the like St. Giles is here, is the town's church well St. Mary's is the town's,o all the se service is to do with civic dignit , dignitaries and to mark the opening of courts is always held at St. Mary's. They said it's,he is the first Cardinal for hundreds of years to visit St. Mary's . Mm! Do want some more? Do you want that warming up? Ah! It'll be alright. Well it won't because it's gone cold! Let me, give it two minutes in the microwave. Co co cold! Ah dear! Some sauce here if you want it. So the stores are letting off work for us then, are they? I don't even know whether they let them off at the head office. Oh, the head office. No you don't! I'll come upstairs with you . In just one minute. Okay. What? Your trousers are falling off. He'll come back in a minute. I'll pull them up when he comes back. Oh! Comet opening at Festival Park! Mm. Mm? Comet are opening at Festival Park. Mhm. Mm? Well! They sure . Well see! I can't see them keeping two stores on. Not in the recession. But they're looking for more erm sales staff! See in here. Full time and part time, seven days a week. So they're gonna take you on now on the basis that you work seven days a week. Who's that? Comet! Says full time and part-time seven days a week. Sales assistant, part-time. Part-time job that offers the flexibility you've been looking for. Day's, evening, or weekends . It says, or weekends, so I wonder whether they'll stick to er giving you the chance of not working. That'll . It's a job though. Worker exploitation! Or they don't work Sundays they're to lose their job! Or . Well if they take you on on the basis that you don't have to work Sundays, they can't change the regulations when you're working. Mm mm. I But don't think that one wonders whether you're forced into signing, that if needed, you'll Ah! work. That's it! Yeah. They might be moving into a premises that's already er, there now. Mm mm. Right? And that's the case they're not gonna mo , they'll take the next twelve months to put er a free run in there for twelve months. They make that much in twelve months! Even if it falls down after that, they're alright. Right? That's what . They've got their heads screwed on! Did you get back that letter? What letter? Ye oh yeah! Did you? Yeah. It's in the kitchen cupboard. I mean, the bottom there cupboard. It's in the kitchen cupboard. Is it all, the whole thing is back. She sounds as if they're back together again even. There's a little slip at the bottom. She Sellotaped it back on. And erm bottom draw of the where? I would have thought they'd have been in touch about extending the guarantee through you. No lunch or nothing. You'll wear it out! Mm? You will try. What time is it now? Four fifty. What time ? T T F A. Mm? T T F A. Mm mm. That was where the phone call was from. The woman that's the secretary. Mhm. Yeah. Although I I don't exactly belong to it any more, but I said I'd go down. Oh! They wanted some in , well she was after information. Mm mm! Cos she didn't realise I'd be going down. So you're quite sure he hasn't gone in the other rooms then? I don't think he got that far. I shouted i I was busy on the Yeah. phone and I undid the door Mhm. and I turned round and shouted. You seen what's on tonight? No. Nine o'clock. Repeated. Powerful drama about the political turmoil in Ireland during the twenties when the British Prime Minister Lloyd George met with Michael Collins and Eamon de Valera leaders of Sinn Fein. No? No. It's on till ten and then it's on after the news, for another hour. It's on for two hours. Oh! I bought you a leaflet. Mm. Well that's if you're o , you're on about erm this Father Phil, you didn't mention anything. About what? Just said I met him. Yeah? I only said hello to him. Who else has met him? I told you , I was it was only the man who looks after the buildings. He's like a porter, caretaker. Mhm. He knows who's coming, who's going and who's due to use the place. He happened to come in on Are you allowed to go in there? Oh yeah! Co th we go in there and sit and study because they've got a kettle and coffee and tea, just help yourself when you cup of tea. Take some coffee up, or tea up and leave it there and in payment for the drinks that you've had. And he lives there does he?? He lives somewhere up at Keele but Aye. I don't know whether he lives on campus or in the village. Yeah. I think it's in the village. Is he permanently attached to there? Oh yes! Permanent. So he must every morning.? I don't think it's every day though actually in the chapel, I think it's down at where he lives. Cos he'll have to say mass somewhere every day But I think it's where he lives. Not, not there is a side chapel there, the east chapel and that's the catholic chapel but it's also used by the non- catholic group. And they have united services and then split part way through. They have a lot of united services, and then when it comes to communion they segregate and then join again. But I do know that he, where he lives, I'm sure I've seen it written that where he lives he has services there. Doesn't give his address, it just gives his phone number. Mhm. But that's what you check. Ah but it doesn't say there, it doesn't. Well when it does ste , it, you can fill that in and send it to them and then they phone. And you can sort of join in the the church group. And it sort of lets them know who you belong to. That's the people who I would think more probable for those who are living on campus. There's the free church, Anglican Associated Anglican . But you will let them know that you're there like and I mean that No , because I have a parish of my own. No, but it would be nice because it's an extra one on the list. Well i You boost up. You are a catholic you should be able to . I, he he said that but I Yeah. Yeah. It's no for if you're going to be there all the time, that they know where you are and where they can contact you. Yeah, but it's nice to boost up the list Well because they might have only a few, whereas the others have got thousands on them. Right? Well the Er last time I and Father does he, does he know that you are a catholic? Oh, the other chappie who was there, he knows. Actually, he, he knows that Paul the bloke who looks after the place he goes to St. Andrews. Ah! That's the And er Church of England isn't it? And he ac Yeah. he actually told, said to him when he came in, he said, oh he is one of your flock! So he came in and he he said this is Father and I said, oh are you better? Yeah. And he looked, I said well I knew you'd been ill. Yeah. And I I explained, like, I said where I lived like, and he said ooh I stayed there convalescing at . I said yes I know you did. Erm and I just said, I said I used to housekeep there and at Nutton Oh! Did you? And I sa , I was telling him, I said, cos I fo , I'm sure he I'm sure he met Father Tom. Oh I do , I'm not sure he has yet in London. No, they used to meet up. Yeah? Because actually the village of Keele would be under Nutton It's only the University that he's got under his chaplaincy. Oh! The village would come under Nutton Maybe. So they cross paths slightly Ah yeah. in that sense. So they had met up. But it would all come under Newcastle really, because it was a parish. Oh yes! It it would all come It's the parish, yeah. under the er It's just a matter of er the area. what do you call it? Always was. Even Woolstaton was up to the But I mean if you count how many people were there when I went to mass when it was a holy day. Erm how many thousands are up there, and of those thousands, how many mu , how many hundreds must be Catholic? I don't know. How many were there there? Well I don't know. Actually who stayed for mass there was only about thirty. And the catholic too? Yeah. They have their own choral society the Catholic church, and the Anglican church do. But you got a chaplain, the erm the chaplaincy of Keele, so it's like a united one, they have their own choir, but the kee , the catholic one also have theirs. Yeah. A , oh dear! What age is Father ? About he's, I would say he's in his mid-sixties. Mm. Possibly slightly older. They in there? It's when they broke into er near . Between the day after New Year and Sunday stole a video recorder. Mm! Mm! Mum! What? Do you know where my is? No. It is! You can carry that out! What's that about res , wiring cables? What's that about? They've got er a deal with Toyota for producing er parts. Oh yeah! Stevie! You can carry my game on. Yeah. Where are you going? I don't really know. Mm? Matthew alright? Yeah. Is his trousers fallen down? Mum! Darling! Guess what I want for next year? Ah! What do you mean next year? We've only just started this year! This year! Mum? What? Well it costs a lot, and I don't know what you will buy Saturday. But it costs about three hundred pounds. You can't have it! Why? Well, you've just said a word, it costs three hundred pounds! Anthony had one! His didn't cost that much! How much? I'm not telling you! But it didn't cost that much. But you know se , I'll, anyway I wanted the same as yours. Well I suggest that between now and the next er Christmas er, day you decide But mum to er what are my chances? Well you'll just have to wait and see! You think it's Christmas every day! I do! Yeah, well Do know where my bus is then? Alex What? Will you come and set the table for me. Ner ner See the knives and forks there. He said ner ner. He said ner ner? What does that mean? I don't, ner ner, erm I think it means yes mother dear. Yeah. I thought he did. Right then. Can we have No I should leave that there so you don't get burnt. No. my go. It isn't cos you had another go. No I did not. Right! Right I'm gonna try and make . Alex quick ! I made it past that I made it past I made it past there Look where I am now then. Oh I shouldn't have gone on to you last time, that is where the mistake comes. Ha! Oh! Ooh I've just got that Mum Yes? I think I need another fork. Well has that one not been on the floor? Yeah. Well just wipe it, it doesn't matter, just wipe it on this towel. What towel? Wipe it on this towel. There you go. my place I don't mind put it in my place. ? No, now go and put it my place, that's alright, now off you go. Well you haven't got a knife. I expect I'll survive it somehow. Ooh Sandra hasn't got a knife. Oh Simon have you died yet? No. I haven't actually. Tell me you're kidding! I haven't. Right. ha! Don't know what you're doing do you? I've got there. Look at where I am now. I'll go Ah! I'm back here again! You've gone back home. At the gate! go back home I wonder how I got here. I'll go back there. I have to. Okay boys, dinner's done. Ha! I'm dead Do you want gravy? What? Do you want gravy? Yeah, yeah I'm just going to drink my drink. I don't like gravy. It's gravy based on chicken. Is it the normal one though? It's the normal one that we have but it's a bit thinner. Oh, bit hard carrying the dinner and this at the same time. Can you manage? Yeah. I, I'm gonna get a piece of bread. Where's a fork? Do you want a piece of bread anyone? You need a Yeah Give Alex a piece of bread. Erm Mum I think I need a bit more on my carrots. A bit more what? But I think er no I think I need a knife. I think I need a fork. fingers. Ow! Do you want some more gravy? On your carrots? Yeah. There you go then. There you go then Simon's gonna bring you some bread and then you can dip it up. What? Remember what they used to say at Pontins. Do you remember that? What did they use to say at Pontins? Remember? Oompah oompah stick it up your jumper? Yes. Yeah. Mm something else. They used to say that didn't they? What was the other thing? I can't remember. No I can't remember either. Have you got some bread for Alex? Oh forgotten. Was it oompah doompah dingley doompah? No, that's what they sing Erm Alex What ? Oh, oh, alright. I thought, right, this pa this bread's empty, you'll have to have the I don't want the crumbs I've cut it so you can't have any What? Hey I've only got one carrot left. I'm eating my chicken first. I'm eating my first. There you go, there's your bread. Goodness you're eating that fast int you? carrots yeah. No that's a piece, that's a sandwich piece,watch that programme? Erm and played games. We played this thing called Octopus. Mm. Well one, one person is the octopus but you have to like mm then she had to, this person has to try and tick everybody and And kick everybody? Tick everybody Oh tick everybody. bu and when you it you have to stand in one place going like that and being, and if you touch anybody else and do that and try and get all the people. Can you move your feet? No. You can D d they get People run around you and past you do they? Yeah. Simon did they get you? . Yeah they got me and I had to turn into one of them octopus things. And then you can get changed back to normal? No you can't get But till everybody, does that, does it carry on like that until everybody's Mm. turned into an octopus? And what else do you play? Erm there is one called erm Dracula. like like one person is chosen and some and one of chooses somebody to say someone's name and that, and the Dracula has to go towards that person but if that person says someone's else's name before you get them Yeah? they that has to go over to there, so Instead. And who was there, was Daniel there? Mm. And Jesse? Yeah. And Rachel. Yeah. And you. Was some, did you say there's some boys from your school gone? No one of them, one Who's that? What's his name? Mm dunno. Jesse? No, we know Jesse. And who runs it? Who's in charge? Jesse? Erm No. Was it a friend of Barbara's? I think so. Is it a lady that's,ar are there ladies that aren't an aren't friends of Barbara's? Most of them aren't they? Yeah. And did you find out what you do next week? No, you don't know what you're doing next week. Oh. Could always ask then you'd know. And what time are you going to the pantomime tomorrow? Do you know? Erm It doesn't matter cos when you're going now. Oh right.? What can I take? Well you were going to take a satsuma and some Quavers weren't you? Yeah. We haven't got a satsuma, what about a pear, packet of Quavers and a pear? Do you like pears or Yeah. find a packet of Quavers somewhere there. Can I go? No they won't let you go, you'll be able to go next year with your school. You know when you, you only just started your school didn't you after Christmas? Yeah. Well they'd already been to the pantomime at your school so you'll have to wait till next year now. You'll be a bit bigger then. Mum, will it be like that Cinderella didn't stick to the story? Er yeah, pantomime's usually are like that. If you go to the New Vic you'll find a pantomime probably sticks, really sticks to a traditional story. And they don't shout things like oh yes you are and oh you're not and oh yes you have and oh no you haven't. But this'll be do you remember the one we went to the other day? Like Yeah. They sometimes say rude things and that don't they? Yeah Like hello I'm posh. And then somebody'll sing some song that's completely unrelated to it Mm like What were they singing?dee dum, dee dum dee dum dee dum Oh do you know what we sung today? We sung all things bright and beautiful all creatures great and small, all things wise and wo wonderful, the lord God gave them all. He made their blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. He made their glowing colours he made their tiny wings glowing colours he made their tiny wings Mm. Good job you have a hymn book. Yeah you can't remember all the words. would you? What? Well daddy was to have been with us for this wasn't he, for this meal? Da we've got a hymn book. Have you? Yeah. Does it say School Praise on it? The state of some of the hymn books at our school. That's cos children have them. Have you seen them? No,wh what's wrong with them? Darren's hasn't, no Paul's hasn't got a cover and it's all curled up. Why hasn't he covered it? Didn't he cover it at home? Dunno. You used to take them home and cover them don't you? Is yours covered? Yeah. With, with that plastic stuff. Oh right. are the stuff with the papers going on put paper on some didn't we? Mm. And what sort of things did you do at school? Who's that banging? You. What things did you do at school today? I did all things like Yeah and them some sausages What did you have for dinner? Sausages Mm. He has sausages every day. You're beginning to look like a sausage. You mean a pig. Smiles like a sausage, looks like a sausage my God he is a sausage. I'm a sausage eater. What else did you have with your sausage? Did you have potatoes? Nothing for our boy, just twenty five thousand sausages each day. You didn't did you? No no do you know what? What I had? No what? What? my sausages so I don't have anything except sausages. I don't believe that. I don't think Mr dinners. No, I don't think Mr would want you just to have sausages. I'm not paying eighty five pence a day for you to eat sausages. I, I wasn't really. What did you have then? Eighty five pence? It isn't eighty five pence a day. It is eighty five pence a day, yours is ninety pence so you'd better be even wiser with your choice. Incidentally what have you had for dinner? That's because you're S spaghet spaghetti rings and erm Not those cheese and potato things? Oh something different was it? it's just cheese I think you could probably eat that sausage . Or are you, are you satiated with sausages? I'm tired of seeing sausages. I bet the sausages see you coming oh no here's Alex, quick then, hide. Mum can you talk posh? Can I talk posh? What for? Like, what like how? Like ooh I'm posh . That's not how you talk posh is it? Mm. Do you mean Stop kicking. Stop kicking. I talk posh. Ooh Like Mrs Thatcher. Like Mrs Th le let's hear somebody do Mrs Thatcher then. Impression of Mrs Thatcher? Me, me, me Impression of Mrs Ooh I'm poor. I wish I was I'll do an impression of Prince Charles Just a minute. Go on. Ooh ooh I'm posh, I'm Now okay let's have Prince Charles. ha ha ha at school. Mm. No Fiona can do a great one of Christopher Watkins. And what's that like? Which one's Christopher Watkins? The one that looks like a problem school boy Mm. with a knife? He looks like Can you talk common like cockneys talk? Dunno. No it's , I mean I'm not very good at this cor blimey up the apples and pears Cor blimey, cor blimey That isn't supposed to be posh Who He hasn't eaten his sausage . You haven't eaten your sausage. I don't want it. We, we haven't ate the stuffing. Mum we haven't ate all the stuffing. Er well I left the stuffing cos I, I didn't think I'd left it in long enough, I put it in a bit late and I thought we'd leave the stuffing. Why? Have some stuffing next day. You kicking? Have you had enough to eat now? Yeah Are you nearly ready for bed then? No. Good. Have you shown Simon your picture that you've done at school? I did a monster picture. He's done a picture of a man with hair No it's a monster. He's done a picture of a man monster No it's not a man Oh just a monster. Mm. It's got hair, eyes, nose and mouth and it's got a big yellow sun, hasn't it, shining over and it's the bestest picture you've ever seen since you last went to the art gallery. Remember that one, that Picasso? Mm. Well it's much better than that, and this is something taken from one perspective int it? And, and do you know how big it was? It was this big. How big? This big. That big. It's big as big as you. a man, that big isn't he? Yeah that big. Mm I suppose so, yeah. Does it go from there up to the sky and up to there? manage to eat that chicken. What chicken? Chicken will make you grow into a big strong boy. What will? Chicken. You don't eat it. What do you mean? Chicken, if you eat chicken it makes you grow strong cos it's got protein in, if you it makes you What? it makes What? so that your bones will grow. What would happen if you didn't drink enough milk and you didn't get enough calcium and your bones didn't grow but you kept eating lots of protein? Mm I dunno. Well you wouldn't be able to grow any A midget. taller but you'd kind of grow out. A midget? Well a sort of small, fat person probably. But you couldn't get any either Erm a mutant. A mutant thre like three three, six, nine, twelve fourteen Fifteen four fifteen, eighteen No. twenty Seven, twenty twenty one seven threes are? Twenty one. Correct. Go on then, off you go. twenty one ? Have a look. If twenty one's there then it's right isn't it? I'll put that next to there then. Yeah join it up to the sum answers. Cos seven threes are? Twenty one. Twenty one. You could do the arrow going from the figures to the answer, from the sum to the answer not from the answer to the sum really doesn't it? Just think next time you do it. Okay you know you're looking for eight threes, what are eight threes? Count in threes Seven on your finger. Well that one was Right. Seven threes were twenty one Twe twenty er twenty one, twenty two twenty four. Eight threes are twenty four, you're getting better aren't you? See next time you have tables at school you'll be able to show them how it's done. Eight threes are twenty four, that's an easy one but what's the next one? Three threes are? Three Six. Nine, nine, nine. You're getting there, go on, three threes are nine. Now that was five threes. Oh. It doesn't matter. Put, put the nine going to the three threes, I'll understand, possibly. Three threes are nine, so what are five threes then? Just ignore that one. Just ignore that one. Okey-doke. I'll cross that out like that. So what are five so that one's wrong. Mhm. Five threes are? One more. There's one more Well you've got five threes are and twelve threes are, you've only got two figures left, so which is to which? five threes are thirty six and twelve threes are fifteen. No it's fifteen. It's fifteen. Five threes are fifteen, right. Oh! That's alright, yeah. Er I, I know what, as long as I can see what you've done. And twelve threes? Thirty six. Thirty six, do you wanna check that on your fingers? You've got twelve fingers lend you two. Okey- doke, go on then. wrong with this. Twelve divided by three put things over the top No you put it behind the equals sign. You would if it was a proper division sum but you've actually put the equals sign there. Three er is it just like that? No they're multiplications How many threes in twelve. Right, how many threes in twelve? Could you lend me two fingers? Go on! You don't need three, you don't need two fingers. Twelve fingers . C you're counting i no, you're counting in threes three, six Three, six, nine, twelve four. Right, four threes are twelve, you don't need twelve fingers for that count each finger as three cos you're counting in threes. Twenty one. Three, six, nine, twelve fourteen si Fifteen. fif fift fourt fifteen Yeah. eighteen, twenty Eighteen twenty one twenty one. ah seven. Seven. You ge you forget yourself don't you and you go back to the two times table, we're on threes now. Well this one's just the sa are these just the same? That's easy-peasy that one, three into three goes three into three goes three I had trouble with this one last night though. Eleven times table that one is. I know it is. Three into thirty three? Count on your fingers, I'll lend you, you'll need a finger, I'll lend you one. Three, six, nine, twelve fourteen Well you've got ten fingers and if I'm gonna eighteen lend you one that's eleven. Carry on. eighteen, twenty twenty one twenty four Yeah. twenty seven Yeah. Twenty seven. thirty Thirty thirty one. No, you're on thirty there because ten threes are thirty, you want another three, what's that? Thirty three. Thirty three, how many fingers? Eleven. Eleven, right, because eleven threes are thirty three. Thirty three divided by eleven is three, thirty three divided by three is eleven. The whole thing is interchangeable divisions to multiplications. Eighteen and divide by three again Correct. Three into eighteen in other words. Three, six nine, twelve fourteen, eighteen Fifteen. fifteen, eighteen eighteen twenty, oh No the answer isn't eighteen. Do it again. Three, six Three, six, nine, twelve, fourteen Fifteen. fifteen, eighteen six. Six, because six times three makes Eighteen. Correct. And three times six makes eighteen. Twenty seven divided by three. And eighteen i and eighteen divided by three makes six. Correct. And eighteen divided by six is three. And three twelve and three er divided by twelve equals four, four divided by three equals twelve and three divided by four No, no, no no no no no no, four times three equals twelve. Three di three times four is fifteen Oh. You mean I've been doing them wrong all the way? No they're fine, you've just got to sort out what the difference is. All these there are multiplications and you can change them to divisions. Yeah but I've gotta know how many threes in them. Yeah that's division. When you divide something by three how many threes. But that was multiplied. See with the crosses well that's multiplication. And it actually says here look. But why can't you just put one over the top there or something? That means division that's what, you've done them right, they're divisions but three into twelve goes four but at the same time four times three is twelve, you can change it into a multiplication but it, it doesn't start off as one. Is you've got, are these divides? These are all divides all the way down but you can change them all because you say four threes are twelve, seven threes are twenty one Three, six, nine, twelve Correct. fourteen three, six, nine, twelve fourteen fifteen eighteen, twenty twenty one twenty four twenty seven Because twenty seven nine divided by three equals nine. nine nine nine nine nine. Oh you're just doing the sums in different ways. Well I ain't doing them, the book's doing them, it's different ways of showing division, you can do a divide sign, you could write the word How many more have I got left out of these? you could put one over the other. You've got one, two you tell me, you're the ones that doing the maths. Nine, nine , three, six, nine three. Right. Three threes are nine. Three threes are nine. Nine divided by three makes three. Three, six, nine, twelve,fif thirty six twelve, it's twelve twenty How you doing? eight Have you been chinking like this all the time I've been gone? Mm. Right. I multiplied But in actual fact, although it's something multiplied by something, it gives you the answer. Mum come and look at my man. If you t if you divide some it'll be easier. Mum, come and look at my man, he's dead funny. Which one's this? Yeah look, it's nine. The man on the computer. In a minute, can I come just now Is it nine? I'm just doing something at the moment Is it nine? with Alex. Yes that's right, three times nine is twenty seven, yes. Alright sometimes you see a pattern don't you? But you see if you make it as a, a division it makes it easier. Thirty six six You say to yourself how many times does three go into twenty seven, nine. You've got to learn how to change the sums round. Is this is this thirty six. I'm afraid, no eighteen divided by We'll have to treat it as a three. multiplier Yeah, so how many times does three go into eighteen? Is it is it It isn't a multiplication. eighteen divided eighteen divided Divided by something equals three. Which is just the same as saying eighteen divided by three equals something. So put three into eighteen and see what the answer is, cos that's the answer. Three eigh how many threes in eighteen, yeah Three, six, nine, off you go Three, six nine and twelve four fifteen You've got it. eighteen, eighteen. There you go it's Six. taught you something hasn't it? Six. Taught you that in the three times table fourteen doesn't come after twelve. Four multiplied by blah equals twelve. Four multiplied by something equals twelve. Blah twelve In other words Ah how many how many times does four go into twelve. How many fours in twelve. I mean we are doing a certain times table How many fours in twelve. How many fours in twelve? Okay. Four S I can't No you're back i that's because you're stuck in your three times mode. Count in three times table then Three, six, nine three, six Nine nine mhm twelve Twelve, right. So this is three times table or Can't keep that times three makes twelve. Three times four makes twelve, four times three makes twelve. Yeah. That's it. Four It's not four because you counted up, you counted the three times table It's er how many fours in twelve you said. Yeah, but there are four threes in twelve. Right. So how many fours are there? If there are four Three Right, there are three fours I told you these are mad. You just change it round, that's all it is. A mu oh another one. How many threes in thirty six You have to sometimes learn to do a bit of guesswork with maths, you're doing How many threes in thirty six? Dear oh what's that? Is that a car going past? It's the American Alex, could you leave mine alone Alex. This one's mine. Could you leave my alone now. Well let's get these finished. Right three multiplied by something equals thirty six. What do you have to multiply by three to get thirty six? Three How many of what? three times something makes thirty six. Three of what makes thirty six Yes. Correct. Start counting on your fingers. Three, six, nine twelve, can you lend me a few fingers? Mhm Mum Yes? Fifteen eighteen, twenty one can, twenty four, twenty seven thirty Thirty. thirty three thirty six thirty six Thirty six. How many twelve. Twelve, twelve, twelve, twelve, twelve Twelve threes make thirty six. Mum could you help me Three multiplied by twelve makes thirty six. I think that's had it, I think the er man from customs Simon was saving that, the man took it all apart and I think that's why it probably got broken so quickly because I think they messed with it. Could you help me fix it? I don't think you can. I don't think the people that work in, in customs are very bright, I think they also steal things cos we've had things go missing haven't we? Careful of that . I can't fix it Alex er I don't, oh hang on, why don't we just leave those two pieces out, see if we can fix it without them. Yeah but that's bent to one side. Oh right, you mean it's broken in more ways than we previously thought. The twenty seven times table! No! Twenty seven divided by something How many twenty seven equals nine. how many twenty sevens in nine do you mean? I don't mean how twenty se many twenty sevens in nine, I mean how many of those blank, in twenty seven or how many nines. How many nines, or nine of how many make twenty seven. Mum If you put nine into twenty seven how many does it go? Say the nines you can do in the three times table and that er you've got to get a three in Three six, nine, twelve somewhere. I think it's had it Alex. twelve fifteen, eighteen, twenty one, twenty four, twenty seven thirty, thirty No you you've gone too far. Oh! Twenty seven nine. Nine what? Nine nine Nine nines make twenty seven? But I've got nine You've got nine nine what? Threes. No three's right. Three. Correct, yeah . You're doing Mum I can't mend it Alex, it's broken. You see you're doing it Twenty one. Right Do you know you're doing the three times table? Is eight three, is that multiplied by three twenty one? Eight, no eight times three is twenty four. It was when I was at school. mum why did they take it to pieces ? twenty one Because they do things like that at customs because they're looking, they're always looking for drugs and things that shouldn't come in. Se well seven, seven mul You're lucky that they didn't take the Turtles apart, they didn't open them. Is seven multiplied by three twenty one? It might be that it was just a little bit open and they think that somebody's tampered with it so then they, they open Se is it twenty one divided by seven ? Yeah. Twenty one divided by seven. Seven divided by Mum when are you gonna read me my story ? I'm going to read you your story now. Yeah, the story of your life before Tt he's lovely for you int he, your brother? No they're my I, I've got a ray in there that gives me pow that can give me power Alex. Watch this one, it's really good. Yeah, it can dig Yeah, you can that out of your Go on then. see there, and he digged Oh my God. and he digged through there Honest? Well how did you find out that cos you haven't got any instructions have you? I just did it and he appeared. He digs through there for you. That's good of him. Oh and then you can just follow him through? No he, he just disappears when you've got through. Oh he's a kind of, he gets released for favours done. Yeah. But you've managed to get so many exciting things going. I, don't Get a ray get a ray sign They can't do anything though Alex, the rays can't do anything. I only manage to get one thing on I do ah I don't know. Why don't you have a try of this ? Can I have a try? Simon can I have a try? Simon can I have a try ? Watch this, I can do this on too, there he is You can't though. Look what I made appear mum In a minute, I'll come in a minute, I'm just doing dad's dinner He jumped he did, ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. Mum look he's jumping all You can make one of these little pink things appear with one of them Oh right so they jump around. well how, when did you find out about that? I just found out about it now . I've got some, you get one of each thing a better game now isn't it, altogether? You get all them animals and everything. Yeah you get one of each kind when you start. So I've got a ray in there I think. Let's just see what I've got. I've got one fly, one pink thing, one ray, one of them creatures, the diggers and erm a thing, I don't what they're for though. Get another digger, get that digger there. I don't know what them fly things are for. I just don't know what they're for. five more minutes I is he digging for you? Yes. No I'm not gonna make him dig for me yet. I'm gonna try and get a few more of them that can dig. Whoo! And then they can dig a few holes for you. Hey see that little pink thing. So try and get that wish I could get through that. If I can get another one of them. Like that one? Well jump up here and try and get one. I caught it. I'd better get another one now. I think I'll be able to get another one. Three of them big diggers. only a tiny spot cos that's Can I? cider. Can I? A tiny little drink. Cider isn't that bad though. Well it's strong enough for little boys. Ah ah! It is nice. I, I had a lot or something,a little lot. Oh you had a little lot did you? Put the light on No. Go on, the other side. Okay Si. I caught it! I got two of them now. I'll go back down then I'll see what they'll both do. He hasn't dug out yet. Why? Out of where? Oh eh I c I can't catch one of them. I've got lots of stuff in there Wonder what they do it for They're just in there. Right Wonder what they'll do er now I'll release one of those things. Oh I've got three of them anyway! Come on come on, come on. Hey! Oh he just fell off getting the, I've transported him back somewhere. I've transported him. Oh can, can I have a go? I'm gonna find somewhere to dig. he could dig on to that. Yeah. Pull it down and then pull it. Don't you want,that? Can I er oh can I have a go? Simon's taking all the Alright, I think er Simon had your ten minutes, it's Alex's turn. Ten minutes!one minute. Ha there's one of them now. Wonder what he'll do. ? No . Dad, look what I've found out. Have to go to bed early Dad look what I've found out. What? Dead easy to do a master's degree. Lot easier than teaching. He's digging for you . He's digging for you. Do you know what you have to do Sime? Shall I tell you? He's digging for diamonds, he's digging Dad watch this, I've found out something, if you ca for what you capture all these creatures for I've found out. You've found out? Watch this, right you see this one here Right do you think go on then. watch. Yes See? Oh! It appears. Yeah they appear. . How come they are You can get them to dig for you, in this other rule, you can get them to dig through the wall. And you can't get through the wall. See they dig Oh! How do you, well how do you manage to do that? I just caught something for a, then put them on. What do you s oh yeah, oh I see what you When you get one of them you just jump around. I see what you mean, when you've caught them you can then make I into there you can erm you can then make it do work for you? Yeah Yeah. Well where's it gone? Where's that one you just had? Er you And that tells you the number you've caught? Yeah. I'm gonna get another game and try and get some more. It's much better without the instructions I'm gonna try and get some more. So you so is it more fun finding out how Yeah I want a go . You want a go as well? Do you want me just to catch you something first Alex? No don't turn the I can tell you something, Alex is a lot better than me at it. don't turn the light off. Why don't you have a go mum? I just wanna catch one of these first Wait a minute, right, and and then Alex would like a go. I wanna show dad how they . Let me show, you're getting it We've been timing him actually, ten minutes How come you can't, oh you've got him. Yeah? Right I've got him now. Watch Now how do you get him to come up to you? You just do this. And you got, you call him up Oh Oh. oh I've just changed into a spider. Try again. You get one of those You get, you c you, so you right I'll have one of those please Right. you change back to normal, you get one of those Yeah. leaves you with one left Yeah I've only got one. Right That only digs through there for you, you have to And he in there, you keep, what you push him? No you don't push him you just follow along with him cos he disappears when he gets through. Oh! And you can then go through? Yeah. Very cle well what does what does the manta ray do for you? Nothing, I don I haven't sta you, oh you see what these little pink things do for us What do they do ? Simon I think it's just I, I know where the hand is look You just do this go erm that way Si Simon I know where the hand is I do. Well why's he vanished? Because because when you do that to him He only jumps so many times? he just van no Simon Simon I just saw that hand. I'll, I'll try and get a hand. I just saw it, that way I just saw it . You've gone past it. Oh! Shall I try and catch that? Yeah. Very good. You have to catch it on a certain place No you can catch it like on i well no, no, you have to, you the net has to fall over a certain part of the creature. Just his head. Just his head? Yes it has to go like that He's jumping he jump And how, are you, are you just Dad he shot me. what? He shot me and jumped. He's ju jumping on you? Well careful then, careful. Ooh ooh ooh ooh ooh Ooh. I'll go all the way down here now. Simon you know no go, ah! That's where the hand is, up there. I know. The hand's up there. Then you could be able to jump some time, oh there he goes! Do you want me to get up to, try and get up to Well yeah can oh, jump, can you jump onto that next bit there? jump up there. See that closes up there and you can capture more if you want them to. You can get, no, they must all do z woodcraft? Have you been to woodcraft Sime? Yeah. You've been alright then? Did you take your thirty pence? Hey! Yeah. So where's the change? Oh. Oh never mind. Probably in your trousers is it? Did you get your change? Yeah I got it. games. Did Steve Ah! I know what I'll be, be able to do. No I'll have to go and and I'll be able to do it. Simon, did Steve stay or did he just leave you there? He left us there then came back after. Oh. to fetch you? library so as possible I suppose. Mum mum mum, mum, mum, mum microwave all morning, warmed it up. mum, mum You see what happens is people show up all dressed up in their togs and whatever from school, or maybe, maybe, maybe they're power dressing No point really. Well, no, one has to bear in mind the type of situation, so power dressing as in it might be a tool but it's very very professional. Mum, can you do one of these ? And then the professional arrives and what's the professional dressed in? Jeans and T-shirt. Denims! Especially jeans and a denim jacket, while the teachers Did you feel a bit uncomfortable in jeans? because, yeah well I thought I might and then he said something about I was at this meeting where I was talking to all these official in their suits and ties and I was only dressed casual and I thought, at that point I sort of a bit like that, it I thought great, I thought, I thought everybody else sort of cringe about the way that maybe they were over power dressed. Over and out. these forms. I wanted, I wanted I don't know where it is. Alex was I think. No I wasn't! Well can I just ask, there was,th there were four there were four of the rock and roll ones and the piece up there that wanted to going back on, have you thrown that bit away Alex? No. Don't think they have. Eh? I don't think Well what have you done, That was Simon! I don't care whose it was. We well Simon done it. I haven't done it. I haven't, I haven't. I haven't. Yeah well it's always strange isn't it how nobody manages to do it and yet it's always Well I haven't! Well who took the piece that was on there, that was stuck on? Has it fell somewhere? I don't know. No it's been torn off. Oh. I told them not to I want or the rock and roll one. I only wanted the four rock and roll ones. Garry anything. Oh can I have a go ? Still got one on the, just a minute. Simon Simon. What? Alex now. Alex now Simon. I want, I'm just saying to you what I want to do I actually want to consolidate my own qualifications Ah, a bit missing there. Yeah? Don't worry it's all Oh it's there it's there. yeah, okay. It's there. And what I want to do is, as the moment where I'm going in and teaching in the area that I am I don't mind the learning support bit, I don't mind the fact that the chil er the, the , yeah, yeah Dad You don't want Oh you're not allowed to stick that on are you? No, I'm gonna take this off. You were saying? But er What about that bit? Yeah don't worry there, I won't push it off. I've thought it out Simes and now I'm going to apply a bit of thought so it'll keep that on, yeah? And I can stick it back down. No ju just saying that I'm looking for material that would be of interest to the kids Your kids? that would allow them, from a, a graphics point of view that would be of interest, sort of allow them not only to be interested but would, would show them a variety of graphic design based on similar ideas. I was just saying to Simon remember when I did, I did this, before these came out I did the Fab Four Rock and Roll Beatles Mm and there you go, you've got them. What's that? . Let me stick me other bits and pieces I don't think it'll erm there, there! Well it'll repair okay. Goes like that doesn't it? As long as nobody's ripped all the little bits off. Yeah? I don't think anybody has really. No I think it's er I think he'll be anyway you they w he was say it might just have a bit here he was saying, John, that he was so excited mind you, what I want to know is how excited was mum when they arrived? You weren't excited? I just said, goodness, I said we've been waiting for this parcel since before Christmas and he says oh have you duck. Mm I mean he looked at me like I was a bit silly and it was only when I got it and looked he'd got after Christmas written No explanations from the Post Office as to it doesn't actually say on, it doesn't say on it Ah but I think, I was saying I think they've I think they've tested them at customs. Did you think well I, I'm not I think they must have opened it doesn't say on that customs actually have opened them. And it normally has stickers all over it saying Perhaps they just have opened them. Mm. I don't know it was just a thought. So Mind you if customs had opened it it probably would never have got maybe Although he fancied them for their own kids. Yeah but it is, it was ins it was an insured package so Can I see if this'll just Yeah. Right. Just take, just take it carefully. Now this is, you know that you don't Now there's a letter in there that wants filling in for Alex for Alison. We are restoring this. Yeah. Yeah but I filled it, I've botched it up in a couple of places but that's beside the point, it doesn't matter. Dad. Yeah. Yeah? Just need a bit there first. Probably when they see I'm at Keele they'll know I'm stupid anyway. Well, what's that? Why what have you done with the er Nothing. I just put a few things in the wrong place because I didn't read, you know, put them in too soon. It doesn't matter anyway, I mean I put er Well but if you've ju yeah but if you just said, I mean what, you s you did that when Sue was here. Yes I know, that's what I'm saying. You said straight, no but straight , you filled something in then you Yeah I realized straight away yeah. But you said I'm not reading it, well why did you carry on if that was the case? You said to me, the point you said That was it, that was where I went wrong. Oh! Well tha well oh well that's alright, it was only that it'd be I thought you said there was a place for your name and address that hadn't been filled in by the computer so you filled it in? That's right, so I filled it in because that's what you do if you get stuck on Keele you fill in the bits that the computer hasn't Well that seems fair enough fo sort of filled in. Is Alex's alright? We'll have to do something with Alex's cos that thing's still on the front. Yeah well don't So anyway you just want to sign by you, I've put your school and I've put your telephone number Mum and I've put, no you can't my number and Keele and I, I've put nanny's number. Oh Mm. It just needs you to sign it. No tomorrow night there's a P T A at Allyson Street. Oh yeah Well Annette said are you going, and I said well we thought perhaps Why, did they say they they would go if we would go? The, what? Is that is that what you think? Allyson Street P T A I'm talking about, tomorrow. Yeah I know, that's what I'm saying, but did it Well she said I'd sort of thought of going, are you going, I says yeah okay I said, if you won't go I'll, we'll go together, I said but I don't particularly want to get, you know, roped into it at the moment. I don't mind going to show me face. it doesn't ma Yeah You know but just perhaps, perhaps occasional help and then maybe a bit later on get more involved. I don't want to not be in it but I don't want to, you know Have over-involvement. well I, well I've got enough on at the moment. Yeah. What have you done? Anyway then I said are they interested in this quiz night, and she says I haven't go she says she'd ask Jan, I said well give me a ring back a bit later. Anyway sh she phoned me back and she said yes he was, he was dead keen, he wished it'd've just been like pop quiz but he'll go anyway. So it's Thursday the twenty seventh. So I said we'll get out tickets and they'll get their tickets tomorrow, we're gonna get our tickets separately. It says there's sandwiches on and it's at the Oxford Arms so Yeah. Thursday Thursday the twenty seventh. the twenty seventh. It's the day after er F S A. Yeah okay, well I was gonna say And you won't be able to go to the F S A anyway cos you're on your course. Which F S A? Well it's an F S A or a governor's meeting or something up St Margarets. On the, on the notice board? Does it say F S A on a, is on the I can't think, it was something to do with St Margarets, it was either an F S A or a governor's meeting. Thing is you can't go anyway. The governor's thing is coming about quite useful tonight because we've been talking about the law as regards governors and parents' rights and what you're supposed to ask parents Parents' what? Parents' rights, yeah. Not such a thing as parents' rights is there? That the parents are allowed to, to actually opt their children out of certain things. But they can only do that if they're actually away that they, they are aw that they can actually do it. certain things in the first place. If nobody damn well tells them in the first place that they can opt out then they can't opt out can they? There's no point at a later date saying oh by the way you do realize that that show we gave on AIDS Yeah. so in actual fact your child didn't have to go if you didn't want to because Well that's like sex education and stuff isn't it? You can vote no to sex education can't you? Well it comes under sex education. Yeah but there were some people who didn't realize that. I mean I we I would I, you know, personally I think I prefer to do it myself than put th leave it up to them cos mostly they don't know what they're on about anyway. Well this,th this, these are the points we were discussing er that appropriate appropriate Push forward the morals and the philosophy of the Conservative government. Well you wanna read the, you wanna read the paper Like AIDS is a nasty disease that only homosexuals get. Well this is all part and parcel of it because apparently it's now It's to do with moral it'll be a moral thing won't it? it's to er encourage people to do Take a moral view point. to have erm, oh I've forgotten what the terms are now anyway, yes, it was very much a Thatcherite family view This is that new thing isn't it? Oh well it's always protection of the family and yet they're not prepared to put anything to the family. That's what Decent respectable citizens on the lowest budget you can make available. Well that's that's really what this whole thing was about tonight, and that's what we're tackling. No, I think er I think it We've had to d it might be something worth pulling kids out of. Well Cos that's what I tried to say to people, that if you want to be an informed parent then you want to know fully who's doing it, what, you want to know the content, you want And what the qualifications are, you want to know the content and you want to know the delivery Well surely won't we have to have a meeting on that just like,do don't they have a meeting for sex education? They should do but you, er again the reality of it as, as we know Seem to remember our sex education talk wasn't very s specific and didn't cover a very wide area. No. It doesn't cover the important things. I think it was mostly, you know, just meant for females of a certain age, it wasn't really anything to do with anything else. What cos only women get pregnant? No that's it, don't think it was anything to do with p it was all about periods and sanitary protection and stuff like that. Oh well there you go. There you go, it never mentions the condom. doesn't even have anything anything to do with sex does it really ? Well that was our talk. I don't think, mind you we had biology so we didn't need it. No but biology is just purely clinical isn't it? Yeah, well no, well we did, that's what I'm saying I mean they'll do nothing about sex, they'll just do all about morals, won't they, and decent, respectable people I'd say and biology's just cold and clinical. Well no Mum but that's what we were discussing. That's w Int it? we, were discussing, for instance They need to have somebody that's a bit liberal and a bit open and that won't be available under a Conservative government will it? What's what's the aim we've been telling them is the aim, what, I mean somebody came up with the aim, in actual fact, despite whatever else you might be doing, whatever politics were behind it, the aim was to prevent AIDS no matter what you were doing, and not to have any kind of prejudice against what you were doing as long as the aim It's also in support of the nuclear family though int it? One mummy and one daddy bound It was, yeah together for the rest of their lives, and no Yeah. relationships. Well no but that's what this, this talk on is about is er well I forget the paper Have we got a loony left council round here, we have haven't we? No. Anyway,th the guy we had tonight reckoned that er he never quite got to grips with er Bernstein and he's f and he, he apologized for being stuck in restrictive which er he couldn't even remember that it was called restrictive until somebody told him but he said ah yes that's it, but yes I never managed to he said I never managed to really get very far with that. Very er very very nice fella and very, put us very much at ease. Erm good. The first fella is a bit er I, I think is is very academic or has a very ac academic Were there two fellas? Yeah. The first fella was ver no there's, there's some women on the course w er we will see who are actually presenting the course, I mean a good fifty percent of the course is Dad it's ab I think I said to you we've got fifty, a good fifty-fifty split, if maybe not slightly more women actually on the course. Oh on the course,education int it? Erm Well I don't know, it's er Yes Dad Simon? could you take these off ? I can have a go but er like I said to you Have most of them teaching ? Whose bits are these? Alex's. I was using them. Right. So can you no well can you bear that in mind when Alex is sometimes playing with your things? Mm. And bear in mind also that the more you take them off the more you bend them whatever and yeah? You pull them don't you? Well I think that's the intention but as you know it says M in there What? M for Michael Angelo Oh. I assume. Don't know, Now who's phoned? Oh Barbara phoned to see about woodcraft, she said Steve had, or well either her or Steve'd take them. That being , yeah? Anyway Steve picked them up here. I said to her do you think That's mine. there's any chance of picking them up here, said otherwise I'm going to have to her take Alex late. That's Anyway Steve picked them up here and then dropped them off And then who else rang? Rob, Rob Robert Rob or Robert from Quickprint, Robert Oh yeah? Bob. Bob. No Bob, it wasn't Oh Rob from Quickprint? Rob, yeah. Yeah? He said you'd had two more fax, one of them they just wanted a current catalogue Yeah? and he seemed to think the other one wanted to buy something but he,whe whether he couldn't read the writing or he didn't understand it Mm sometimes the faxes are pretty Something about a bootleg. Could you get hold of a bootleg,bu but he didn't seem to know I don't know what else he said about it. I'll have to call in, I'll have to make a Well I sa I said can he contact you later and he says well no not really, I said well I'll tell him to give you a ring in the day some time tomorrow. See I can't do that at all from school, that's Oh. that's the trou no that's the trouble now you see Oh you'll have to just try and call in but so all I can possibly do is after school I s well I wanna get a photocopy of that jacket, so I thought if I, Friday night which I should be home pretty, pretty much on the dot I'll have to pick the, pick these two up and I'll have to just go run down before they close. Yeah? Well you could do, yeah. Well I'll have to really. I'm thinking I finish at three tomorrow but then I'll have to get home, Annette, I said to Annette I'd be there by about four Yeah. but I, I don't know er whether I could do it an hour or not. It's possible I could s if I walk from Newcastle catch a bus to Newcastle then walk from Newcastle. that other one Simes? just take er asleep now but erm could I go and get it? He probably is asleep actually. Oh did he take it upstairs? I think he did take something It's alright I was just getting rid of all these Anyway so it's the P T A tomorrow and I said I'll go Do you want me to go and get them er but we neither of us want to be What time is the P T A? to do anything, half seven tomorrow night. What are we going to do about a babysitter? You're, you're not going only me and Annette are going. Oh sorry, right. Fine. Sorry about that. Right, right No you're getting the other thing on a Thursday the quiz night, twenty seventh. Annette and John are going We're both going Well it's a night out. Sandwiches So it's two pound anyway so if you've got four quid spare between us. Erm I've got a ten pound note I suppose. Did you say there was something on telly you wanted to watch? something really intellectual. five more minutes. Were they, were they very pleased with the parcel? Did they seem Oh yes, they were a bit pleased but straight away they started getting, you know Alex was getting tired so we were getting can I get it out, can I get this out, can I get that and it were half open and I was frightened of losing the bits so I gave him one and he said no he didn't want that one he wanted the other one, so I give him another one and then I nearly gave him a clout. Well what I'll do I'll get, I'll get a bigger box Part of it's erm which I thought actually, I shouldn't really three of them each, you know he was getting silly Yes I know but they are his What he you mean he chose his own? No. He chose his own? No they came Before I even no, no, we chose there were three in a parcel for you and three Cos if he did No there were that wouldn't have been fair. No, Don Don Don Nothing's ever fair for you is it? There were three in the pack No, there were three in a pack for Alex and he opened his bef you opened yours Simon. No. That was it, that was how it came, nothing was touched at all. Don and Debbie sent them as they were. Except Don and Debbie sent three pairs of pants, that game with the punchy springing thing Which broke. and there was a talking And Alex a talking turtle and a book,both got a talking turtle each and it Which one was it? M er Michael Angelo. And it wasn't anything specific, it was just a turtle but thought perhaps Robert might like it. I offered to give it to Daniel actually for his birthday but I, I fe I felt a bit sorry for Robert, I thought o opening all them. He gives you things sometimes doesn't he? And takes things off you sometimes . Yeah. Have you heard what he's done on him today? Tell dad what he done on you. No, tell us what's he done on you today? Well well I was I'll go and get it. I said he'll get . He has actually given Alex one, he give him a ,is it? Cos Simon wasn't Oh one of the pleased about that cos he hasn't got that one. One of the monsters in my pocket? The old ones, the one. This was the cause of it all wasn't it? Go on, tell dad what happened. Tell me what happened then. Well we were on the bus and Which bus? Er to swimming Coming from swimming, going swimming. and no back from swimming Yes? and I had erm hmm I'd swapped Richard something Richard ? No Richard thingy, Richard Richard ? No Yeah and I swapped him this elephant Yeah it's an elephant Yes you know Gnicia Gnicia Yeah, the god. Oh right the In the, the, the In the In I hadn't heard of it at all, don't know what I was gonna say the Indian one, yeah. And I asked Robert if I could have a er have a look at one of these Yeah. one of his in a set and he says Yeah. that I could and he, and he gets Were you keen on the one you looked at? Did you want to see it? Was it really an interesting I only wanted to see this one and he said Is that it? and when he had a look at mine he said no swaps back Ah. we hadn't even swapped. Took one off him and said no swaps back. You see it's all to do with being fair and I shouldn't worry too much. and doing the same But I don't want this one. and doing the Well swap it for another one. I can't, he won't swap me. Well think, swap it with somebody else. Somebody else. I want to swap, nobody else has got that one. Which one? The elephant. Gnish Gnicia Gnicia Well the thing is Simes Swap it for that that's what it's all about isn't it? Okay, if I give him the turtle do you think he'd And that. No way! I'm not giving it away! You don't want that one. You just said. I do, I well if if I swap him that and said here I'll give if I give him the turtle you this turtle as an incentive cos you're giving him the turtle anyway but he won't know that unless his mum's told him. Bet she has though. I'm confused. Are you confused? You will be. Anyway, Simes, the Golden Girls are on, which is full of intellectual stimulation for dads so I'm afraid I'm gonna put the T V on now. Old er old American women. Old American women . I can put these trousers on straight away. Go on then, let's have a look and see how nicely you can put your trousers on. Where's the At the front, and the zip's at the front as well. What that? That's right. Mum why did I bump into a chair? Why, when did you bump into a chair? And I knocked it over. You should be looking where you were going. shoes. Why should I bump into Go on, carry on, that's it. Mum somebody put sand in my pockets. Somebody put sand in your pocket? Where was that, from school? Yeah. Another boy was it ? Yeah this This dead , dead what He's dead. He's dead is he? Will, you mean he will be if he puts sand in your pockets again? Is he your friend? Well that was silly thing to do really wasn't it? You don't put sand in people's pockets do you? I know You mean you never put sand in his pockets? What? You never put sand in his Get your own ba do you play in sand at school still? Does it take, do they take you, you haven't got sand in your play room have you, in your classroom? No. Well where, how did you have got sand in your classroom? Yeah but, but I never saw it, oh no. Oh right, so where is it, up a corner? Cos there's not a lot of room in your classroom is there?lot of room Do you know what, there's so much room. desks and the tables and all the children. I thought you had to go off to another room, to a play room to play in the sand? There's all water as well. Is there? What do you do in the water? What sort of things do you do? There you go, you can put your clothes on now. They're in the same room. They've got sand and water in their playground daddy. In their What? in their classroom. Uncomfortable. You're uncomfortable? Alright. I bet they do put it out in the They don't. Simes how, don't leave that lying around so put it on the side when you've finished. then you could play, you cold splash couldn't you? You can. it wouldn't matter where the water went. Have you zipped your zip, yeah? Where's your tie now? Put your tie on I've got Okay right. Well pull that right up like that your collar so your collar sticks up. No put your tie on so it goes over your collar that's right, now it goes over your ti over your shirt collar at the back and then that's it but you'll have to, you'll have to do it yourself soon, you know Can you pull it down? No you've got it down, you flap the collar back down again. And at the back, cos it's very stiff, you need to turn it right over. Oh there you go, Simon's brought your shoes as well. Put your shoes on. Simon, if you wear my shoes Yes? Yeah. And I'll let you look at that thing with Okay? Yeah. I know it's twelve minutes past I need extra few minutes. Go on then. Daddy's going now Kiss boys. kisses. Hey, have a nice day Alex Alex, you're Be good boys. Have a nice day at the theatre. Alex, I'm not going. Simon. You're not? Course I'm going. Yes I will. I'm just having one with no weapons Yeah. No don't you take it used to have one little I think I'll have a pink face. What? I think this is the best turtle. It's not the best turtle ever. Do you know the best turtle? Mine is. you said. This one's just like er cos they've got them little round things. this one's trousers. No they're just like jeans aren't they? Yeah. your weapons that they have. Come on boys, let's brush your hair. Have you both got your shoes on? Yeah. You've got about fifteen minutes to play for fifteen minutes now, then we have to go ut. Why do they have to have weapons that they have? These are just the real weapons. I bet Alex wishes he was going to the pantomime today. You'll have to go another time won't you? Yeah, cos them aren't really weapons are they? They're just things Er is that one Leonardo? Yeah. Raphael. The other one's Simon, do you on their arms, very often, them little You do, you do you do. Right. Simon let's get on, you see that turtle? Give that to Robert, that's for Donna so give them both to Robert but the adventure game's for Donna. There's your crisps. And that's yours as well. Can I bring one ? Can I can I bring ? Can you zip up ? No! Mum Yes? Can I can I bring one for Robert for when he comes out? Erm Can't I just bring one for him then? No, well He'll have one, he'll have a turtle when he comes in. Have to give you your mum's Yeah Now I need four pounds and so how am I gonna get four pounds out of a ten pound note? Simon! Mum can I give one to Robert when he comes out of school? Mum can I give one to Robert when he comes out of school ? Well not really no cos you Simon can take them now No can you just Oh don't put that whingeing tone on. Okay. Do you wanna play it one go? And I'll be my two turtles and you be yours. The rock and roll ones. Yeah we have to be two rock and roll ones each. Yeah, I'll be that one. You can have him you can have him. And only a monkey. I know. And which two, which three ? Right two No I want them two. No, no,th it doesn't count, that one doesn't. You want these three look. Them two don't count do they? No . I know, I'll go from the I know, let's start from the bottom. One of those No let's start from the bottom. No no, we'll just do the right. Er if you, you can have do you want a go like that? Right there and you want that one that one that one, the one under that one,and you have and I have those two these two and you and I have these two and this one. Oh let me work this out. Yeah. Cos we can't do it. Right. We'd better start from the top. Well I want them so I've got that one so I need that one now to go with it. What? How many have you had then? Three. How many altogether? Er I dunno. Mum, mum There's stacks of them in there. I just want trousers. Ooh goodness I'm not man's trousers. Mum, do you know this one's trousers No it's just they look like jeans. Oh right, oh he jus oh goodness they're soft but they ca not, they're rough rough They're like jeans. And the rest of him's shiny and looks smooth doesn't it? Cos I thought of them as rough but I know , oh. I wish we didn't have so many turtles so I can work it out better. let me see where I am What? I'm just trying to sort out some papers here. They've got to go this morning. Right. Simon, you've got Slash haven't you? Simon you've got Slash Simon do you know, Simon, you've got Slash haven't you? Yeah, yeah, yeah! And I'm trying to but I'm trying to but I, but a person Mr Alex won't let him. Is that you? Are you Mr Alex ? Simon! Think we have to cut that bit off No we won't. Well cos it We need it. it's my piece. We need it. It's my piece. We need it Alex when we dad won't let us I think I might have that piece . piece cutting off here, I cut, do them out on the outsides first and then I'll go booooooooooo Right lads we're going out in five minutes, I don't know if you need to go to the toilet Alex? there. Well you can do that you, well ten more, ten more minutes but do you need to go to the toilet before you go to school Alex? No. You went yesterday, do you need to go? Okay. No no. Simon, we have to see which one we want. You haven't got all the turtles here. I've got all the rock and roll ones and the ones that we got yesterday. Well we got the rock and roll ones first well they have, them two have to go together in a certain place cos them are all the rock and roll ones and them are not. They're in a certain place. Do you think he looks like that ? Yeah like that. Yeah because We found out last night that he, you know them things that you lift up? Yeah. Th them funny things? Them? No them things that you lift up, the metal things Will you show with the round ends Will you, will you w will you show me? Right, like this. They look a bit like them wheels. You hold them like that. You hold them in the middle like that so you, it's strong. Yeah. Well it says on the back of the thing you take these off and use that, use them as that thing his hands. Okay No not we can't we ca we can't do it, I tried it last night. Can't do it now. Did you play with my turtles last night? Yeah. I know, I'll have my turtles now and you your turtles. Swap him for him? Yeah? Yeah. No No swap I said no. the best out of all the rock and roll turtles isn't it? No which one do you think out of yours things?out of yours? Him or him, or him do you think? I'll swap him if you want. Yeah, yeah no it's not! Okay. Just said no swaps but I know. if I can swap back Yeah that was alright I w I didn't tell you the truth when we said that, sorry! You can't change. I know You can't change back now I can. You can't. I'll do Pete's face. I know where his leg is. Where? Upstairs. In the box? We won't get it till next year. We've just got Fantasia haven't we? We've just we've just got the rel release of Fantasia on video over here. So Ah. I've se Yeah, I've seen lo loads of things about looking into it and I, there was definitely more than one shots you know and er yeah, absolutely. Anyway look I'd better go. Right Right I'll er, I'll get this er, I'm just busy with, with school at the moment but I'll, I'll get the er whatsit off to you, the er tt erm Beatles Monthly which I've got waiting here and I'll . Nice to talk to you Don say hi to Debbie for us. Okay thanks very much indeed okay, bye . Oh! . Quick. Are you prepared? round the head with this. No we went in and erm it was about er three or four minutes before we actually started and he just gave us this paper and he put sets of questions to the different types of differentiation Yeah and to each set they'd be any thing up to ten sub set questions, so er he says do what you can in er the hour, well it's not an hour, but it's fifty minutes not really no once you get every body in and you get started yeah and, and you look at the clock at five too, five too and that's it and you think you might of done and you're still stopping so we set off going and I thought well the first ones were, didn't ask for a proof of doing it, just asked to do it to do it, yeah so I started working through them, but without referring back to the notes that you know what some of them yeah, yeah differentiated to mm, mm so you really have to remember what some of them change into yeah yeah, like some of them you can, you like it ain't it? you can work out the mathematical ones mm but the trigonometry ones you have to know what they turn into I got some things, a couple of them I was getting stuck on what I supposed to put and then I actually go too far on some 'em, I, I make them again you know yeah, yeah any way he's coming round you've not much proof you can prove them yeah huh, summat like that well you can get so far, but then I work the brackets out and you don't always have to work the brackets out mm you leave them as a full themselves, yeah erm set of numbers, erm any way he was coming round and I just kept saying well I'm stuck a minute, he says why, I says it doesn't look right he says well why doesn't it look right?, he said well why doesn't it look right?, I said look if I say it doesn't look right that's all I know, it just doesn't look right you daren't say that you don't understand any thing he says you've got to explain no I'd done it why you don't under yeah and you don't always know but I'd done it you see mm but the answer didn't look right look right, yeah to the question so you couldn't well he's going through it and he said well it looks alright to me and I say well it doesn't look as if it's connected, any way I won, I could see why then it didn't look connected mm erm, with because it was, erm as the denominator and not an numerator one it was, it was one over but it was alright? so it was right any way subsequent to that he gave us one which it was awkward working it out and then he gave us one over the same yeah I said I'm not working all that out again no just I just go over and do it all again do ya and then do a different rule yeah, yeah so he said yeah but there's another way you do it, I said well what's the point in doing it again, I've just done it one, he said well yes there's two ways of doing it he wants to see you doing it the other way as well no he didn't no no oh any way I got to the last one and it was two combinations combined together, so you've got two separate combinations to do and then you're to put those two together in with a different rule do you know how I feel now, I said if she ain't saying yeah I'm gonna what you told me yeah you know what he said the first time we went into sociology I mean I feel a bit like you must of felt then well I came out and I actually just finished them mm I just did the last one, the next, the, the, the next to the last one erm, I said er, I can't remember what the differentiation of it is, he said you wouldn't you haven't done it, I said no we'd started to yeah I said I know it's an inverse, well he said if you know it's an inverse you're half way there yeah so he said well what's an inverse and an inverse?, I said it's back to the original back to what it is then, yeah he said that's all you need to know so he actually showed me how to work it back yeah but I said look it's Wednesday lunch time, I haven't woke up yet, I don't wake up to Friday night you know I'm still struggling and we were having a laugh, but the others who had him last term, said he was brilliant, because he actually combines work individually individually, yeah rather than works just going through it and hoping you all keep up mm and we were saying last year we could of done with having him for a bit so er how's Jean coping with this alright? she was getting through them, they were just slower mm, mm but she was getting there, her and Bren were er conferring you see I'd sort of gone through what I'd done and every now and again she'd say well I've done this and I'd say well it's right. Are her and Bren still in the, more or less the same boat, they kind of just, mustering through as it were? I think Jean's got more about her than Bren than Bren yes sort of, but neither of them are taking it on are they next year? yeah, well Bren is yeah, I don't think, is Jean, I got the impression like she wasn't, I don't know I think originally she'd done Russian studies and management or something originally she was going to do it, but there's a new one come in and she's decided to go on this management, managements and it's the new one that's right yeah it doesn't start till next year does it? mm, till the, the trial yeah it's a lot ain't they? somebody else I know er somebody else's applied for it as well Dan's going for it he thinks yeah he, he isn't, he's a bit, up in the air I think at the moment, he doesn't know what he wants to do I don't think I mean I keep on saying if I found I couldn't do the maths I'd ditched I wouldn't go on but if, if if you could, the first year but I think , I think if I did flunk out on the maths side mm I would look probably for another course he did strike me like how I'd feel about this because it's I mean it's, yes it's difficult, but yes I've got to do it and if I don't do it this, you'll have to do it again, so I thought well he took to me I'm the one that's going to get me through, not them I mean fortunately doing the maths it's the sort of thing you notice when you complain you might as well do yeah doing, doing the maths you see I don't have to do another science next year that's right, yeah cos it's already there yeah I don't know what, do you have any thing that you have to put in place if you don't do I know what you mean, you mean if you take maths under principle you're gonna have subsidized principle maths well you, you've only got to get to subsid science mm, mm that gives you subsid science yeah, so why would you have to do another one next year? you won't have to do another science next year will you? you've got to do another subsid maybe so, I don't know, I thought you only needed two subsids, unless a subsid in summat you take to doesn't count, but that that would never be what, what you see I've got two subsids now literally the transfer I don't really now and the subsid, sociology yes I work, er unless they say next year just you transfer most wasn't it? well yes cos to transfer you the only thing I wondered is if next year that you've got to do a subsidiary, and if you've not got a science you must do science not against another subsid I must admit no so specializing in that, you know, rather well the thing is in the end for all the subsidiaries that you pass it counts on the mm final award I mean I, this year if I get me physics and me, and me I wouldn't mind doing another one next year, but my choice, whatever I fancy at that time mm you know, like the biology I you know the biology's gonna be hard, I can tell that the maths gonna be hard, but I think I've got more of an interest in biology than physics, I mean I, I don't know if Jean's done any any biology I don't know you know I mean I've looked through the parasitology books I've got about two of 'em it's all cestodes and lima luminaries and and worse the jargon in biology it's, in biology what got me, when I did it, it's, it's, yeah the Latin names and most of the time the dictionary words that you have to remember mm, I mean I'm okay cos I've done my yeah although I haven't done particulary parasitology I know some of 'em, I've done bits of 'em, but like if you've never done biology it must be the same feeling again mm that you had in sociology that I yeah still get in the physics yeah you know you just still bewildered because you don't understand, I mean like I go to this night class and apparently I, I learn from it, but in actual fact I don't, I come out I get eight out of ten, nine out of ten, or ten out of ten and I haven't got a clue what it's about no and that, that to me is just a waste of time, no I mean I'm wasting their time and mine so yeah I'll have to get down to it I don't I don't know that I'd fancy doing, I mean I did like biology, but I don't think I'd specifically want to do the biology at the level that they're doing it up there, cos it's too much of a jump from what I've ever done before yes I think any thing at that level must be, you know, when you think well sociology yeah, nice, interesting, sociology at university level no it isn't though because it's again a tendency to be based on what you can read and what you understand of today's social problems, I mean every thing we've had so far apart from the industrial revolution and the history behind it mm is being about today sociological problems yes yeah I mean like we've had er woman not too bad woman and children of the third world, well that's of today's problem, what about they show you how it was created, it's a problem of today yeah, yeah, yeah we had this day state ethnicity and racism, it was all about gypsies state technicity? state, it's three separate groups, state ethnicity and nationalism oh right yeah and they did it on gypsies did you, oh they, there and gypsies probably I don't know mm that didn't crop up, what was they cropping up was erm that they've got a very definite code of what is internal to them and what is external to them, it starts off what belongs in the camp and what belongs out of the camp mm and outsiders you are not gypsies don't belong in the camp so the feeling of the gypsies to what to us is probably equally antagonistic as most people's attitude to gypsies then it's what belongs in the trailer as to what belongs out I felt sorry for the gypsies you know in Cross Street not Cross Street, they were on the festivals car park, you know the whole thing and I mean then he kicked them off didn't he, so they moved up to Cross Street so in a way it's their own fault, they could of let them stay there, I mean every body wants to be settled somewhere like Christmas as well don't they I suppose mm I felt sorry for 'em but, they, the way the way they were, they got the, actually the the woman, she's a girl, she's a doctor of sociology she's, she's barely out of her twenties she's not who? Sharon mm absolutely brilliant lecturer she really was , she, she's on the antipology's staff seems to me though at that age you've got freshness and initiative yeah you know what I mean they haven't gone stagnate yeah and stale and bored with the job she still got the real interest there gave a lecture and all she came in with was some notes written out on some full scape paper and some papers for the over head projector mm but she just bowled over I think enthusiasm does go over and doesn't it? the hour had gone and we could of stayed probably another half an hour without realizing that the hour had come yeah and gone and then we went to the tutorial and I'm afraid Harry just, phew, it's just like wind up session, you know you feel as if you want to cut, to get it going mm but erm he was on about certain aspects that he picked up from her, but having been in gypsy caravans round here, as when they were on Line Brook you see we were always at Line Brook for one reason or another mm and they do have different standards, but I say they are different classes of the gy yeah, yeah the true gypsies are clean, it's the, what we call the tinkers, just the travellers that pop on a site and move on yeah yeah do a quick kill on the tarmac and see what goes on in the town and then they move on redefine rubbish and move on yeah but there used to be a caravan down here, I'm not joking the value of stuff that was in it, was unbelievable and it was so clean and every thing had a place and it was all mirrored inside, cos he liked the mirrors and, or glass work, oh it was beautiful yeah stuck in the middle of that dumpy site mm but the site was they did their own down fall with the first ones that went on it, cos they ripped out all the water pipes and the toilets and the, they, they literally decimated the site so the Council said oh they're not doing it again any more, yeah me sister was saying that this, cos she lives opposite the thousand of pounds er yeah so of course they're against it they threw it all in the brook mm so they refused to do it up, well the result was over the years the pot holes down to the sites got bigger and they're so far off the road from mm Brook Lane, but well what you couldn't see you didn't know about, we used to take the cars down there it was nightmare and when you got down there, there was always the dogs roaming around and mm but there was some nice people yeah but there was some rough ones yeah, I thought it's worth but I mean when you start looking at what the topics are in sociology, there's nothing really tha that you haven't got some if you've got a ma if you've got a mature mind and another thing, yeah I would think for some of the younger ones who haven't seen or read a lot in the papers of where, what's going on we said that last year to our Neville and found it very boring it might be very difficult and it could be mm, mm boring , but when you've got that experience of, you've seen these things occur well when they start talking about how hard done two women are yeah and how easy men have it, you know what I mean, a little bit of you saying oh yeah, yeah, yeah that happened to me I know it could well I mean we had one girl didn't know what she was going about, but, you know, women don't have all the work to do in the house and her dad helps at weekends and I said well who made the decision in the first place to do what after the weekend well we help with the dinner, but I said who was it that decided what you're having and got the ingredients together and had decided and the fact you're going to help her with the dinner, huh and she kept on about, but we help, I said but who do you help? she can't identify though with a woman that's kind of been mild and had kids and, er well I did say er are you married?, no, will you be having any children?, definitely not, I said well unless you're prepared to take on the responsibility mm of a home and a family that a woman has with children, you've got no right to criticise no, no oh we had quite a heated argument about it you can only learn I think from your, from your experience and yet it's something every body has to go through personal experience, yeah isn't it that? that yeah breaking away and realizing just how, you know how mucky a house is so it is so easy when you're only helping on a side line because you're not doing any of the thought processing you probably think you put a lot into, yeah, it's the remind as well I think like the constant remind of you were the one that takes responsibility for birthdays and for Christmas presents yeah and for writing letters and yeah you know maybe helping neighbours and yeah like things I suppose men don't think of I sat there and not because they can't yeah but because they've never been taught, you know taught to do that sort of thing I sat there last night I actually I'm on the way to the post office cos I got the erm form back for claiming for Christmas holidays mm and they're asking erm for a copy of the grant again again which they've had haven't they?, for how many weeks in the year do you actually attend cos I said that you don't get grant for the holidays and it stipulates the term you don't get it for Easter you don't get it you get so much for Easter, don't you, but none for the summer, they give you twenty odd quid for Easter and twenty odd quid for Christmas well with the dependents allowance you get so much with it yeah , yeah but apparently you see the terms are split up and you actually don't get any thing when you're not in on mm the terms, well the grant form shows what the terms are mm so I said well it cost us just so many weeks though, I've put it in again, I've, I'm sending it back today in the hope that they will come up with a decision in the next week, cos usually once they've got the information they'll write back say within ten days yes or no mm but erm I'm thinking about this thing, new what sort of representative sample, where they get the whole thing random, I think they just go and knock at doors, take out every so many names off the list must be of so many men and so many women, of today er I think er a class difference I think she's got a quota mm, mm so many of each type or yeah each age, age group or whatever give a fair representation yeah yeah mm oh well this P C F A er Trish maybe us er the, the woman who I meet up at you know who works in the coffee shop she was there oh yeah she was there she's oh they've got some stuff there blimey she said meeting you here, well she sat chatting to Emma all night I haven't seen her for ages they were laughing and giggling up the corner and er, I mean I did go just to let them know that although I did say I wouldn't come to every meeting I was quite prepared to still do mm, mm what I could did Joe come with you oh he would because he didn't wanna stay in or he wants, cos he wants to go every where I go to see what you're doing, what you're up to to see what's going on yeah and I said well your be bored, no I won't, and about half past eight, which I thought well we should be finishing by now, he said well aren't we going? I said well we will be going and it finally finished at nine o'clock, erm, the the topics under discussion are all really relevant mm, mm but they sort of get carried away slightly yeah you all follow and chit chat gets going some where else yeah and then you go in with that conversation instead of the one you should of yeah yeah but er, they've got to get a new mini bus apparently, there in two years, which we new and er because like every thing else, it's funded by the school not the authorities mm, mm but well have they got to get rid of staff or not?, cos the school that Gary's at now they had like an emergency meeting on Monday mm it was supposed to be a normal meeting but he changed it to talk about the cuts you know the on saving education, he said that I supposed to get the six teachers, he said I'm gonna get rid of five he said and if I possible can I'm going to make it four, that gotta remember those of you who are on protected salaries erm you again the pay and a half other members of staff and he said he wanted voluntary redundancies and early retirements where possible, you know, and also he hadn't supposed to tell for a month so this will come out later in the year and he says I'm telling you know he says because the next twenty eight days, it's an extra twenty eight days to go and have a look for another job yeah if you want to, but Gary's pretty sure that he won't be one of 'em he hopes but then well that's the problem if nobody thing is though if it did happen yeah at least were, were covered yeah you know, but I mean at the moment I keep, he's coming home some nights and, you know it like, he'll come home and say I had a really good morning the kids were great, but as for the afternoon, and like he said when you're teaching you're only as good as your last lesson, you know yeah so I thought he, he's changing things he's saying well I don't think this is suitable and I don't think my way of tackling this is suitable because he's used to dealing with different kids, although they're a similar age, they're not very motivated or mighty but they're more motivated than these kids, but he says like he'll turned back towards the black board and he'll be writing and they're shouting abuse at him, F ing and blinding and he says it makes me so angry because I don't know the voices well enough to know who's saying it mm you know, it is just so frustrating, you know and er some of these kids he said and the language they use, one girl came in, she hadn't been in for three or four days, he hadn't met her and he said hello you must be such and such er fuck you you know, I mean, he'd never even met the girl before, he said it's very you know distressful and demoralizing mm but he seems to be mustering through any way no telling cos cos he's got to really more than you can tell him to watch To Sir With Love oh dear and then oh it, er, yeah because he had exactly the same problems when he moved in yeah and he's attitude was in the end well if you don't want the education as it comes, we'll teach you the education that you want and the first thing was well was to respect each other and that yeah was my essay, I wrote in to the education was that, the top and bottom of personal discipline mm, mm was the self respect for you and a respect for others mm and the discipline is only there out of respect hanging out the window shouting abuse at one another coming up the corridors yeah, yeah don't but the thing is I was reading this erm, I was reading another book on this erm you haven't read another book Sandra, that's two books, goodness I've not got through them all, I was just reading selective pieces bits, yeah the trouble with this is it's an American book so it's a bit, I call it biased, erm on erm the betrayal of children on, on the way that they're not in childhood for very long and it blames literacy, that the more the literate the child becomes mm the earlier the literacy developed will become a the sooner they become independent mm and this idea of childhood being up until sixteen, eighteen years of age, was only shows at nine now aren't they yeah you know shows at would develop only after the sixteen century mm, mm, yes, yeah in the middle ages yeah children were grown up when they were eight and nine because they were working that's right, cos of the more responsible than they are now it's only changed with the, the revolutions that said that mm children were not allowed to be employed for different lengths of times and social change mm change the way that we thought children ought to be and educa it is education isn't it, they arrange them in a class yes and it's the education that is made children literate early on in life mm and it's the literacy that just de made them into child adults like the it's, it's industrialization it's education mm it's capitalism one, one of the got to be one of the criticisms that has come out on this one book was that because the, these child adults are skilled and put into education, they maybe still illiterate, but they are street wise, they are literate of the street oh right I think, I think I was gonna say not non and, yeah literate, but less literate yeah kids are, aren't they? but they don't want education that's what I think any way mm because education changes their social standing, takes them off the street and then they're not at the level that they were, young adults, they're children again mm and they don't want it mm but when they actually get into which country, I mean, this, one of these books as I say it was only published in nineteen eighty eight and statistics in it are as recent mm, mm as it was published, she does make allowances, she says some of the statistics I upgraded at the publication of the book yeah yeah so there were nineteen eighty eight's statistics, some were the year before mm, I was gonna say the stuff that gave us last year it's was nineteen eight, eight, eighty nine yeah, but when only about two years behind the when, when you looked at which country had problems with education with children Britain, America yeah well we were considered to be fortunate that we didn't, we only had a small percentage that we had a problem with yeah but America's rising child population who were becoming street wise and illiterate mm, mm and out of education, but countries like Italy were all ready were a bit like South America mm they had street children and they have the leather sweat shops, most of the children from eight, nine mm work in he leather shops making all these cheap leather bags and purses yeah and belts that you've got on the market mm and they're earning approximately twenty five pound a week mm and they're saying well why go to school, because if I go I give up that income, half goes to mum mm who they only see when they care to go home yeah and the rest of it is spent on erm arcade machines yeah, yeah and fast food plus what will they get out the educational system any way well apparently the education system in Italy is so poor mm it's been destroyed, the buildings that they use have got no equipment, they've mm got no desk and chairs they're actually using so they're probably better off in the sweat shop any way yeah so why bother they're actually using old ware houses in places mm and old industrial buildings that they've just taken over and when there's a crisis in the housing, the state takes over the schools and uses them as refugee centres mm so, I mean, one school turned out to be an old factory and it was of six floors and it had one of these like industrial lifts, you know, the open caged lifts yeah so the staff use that and the children had to go up six flights of stairs yes, yeah and it was in a back ally way and mm the people who were going round these different countries that, that'll be here sooner if we follow on the same way governments the same yeah erm, I think probably because our education system developed more so with the industrial change mm and we were geared more to progress in the education system where the industrial change in the other countries didn't happen at the same time and that they needed now a younger ag a younger age group to keep the, the industrial system going mm, mm that their education system's failing mm but, I mean ours is heading the same way with this rebellious education all the things that's like and ours , I say with ours they're cutting back and cutting back all the time until I mean it's under funded now, it's under staffed already, thirty seven, thirty eight in the class, so what do they do now, they want to save seven million on education I must admit that, that and more teachers going that's an even bigger crisis yeah and yet they've got to implement yeah the national curriculum to all these stats tests yeah,do do you know I mean and there was a paragraph erm there's not in a day a paragraph at the end of one of the chapters and, I can't remember the exact words but in, what it meant was that for the parents who do restrain the children from what they watch mm where they go, and that the education they receive, they are part and parcel of it mm Chris said one of the biggest failings was that parents did not take part in the education of the children, this is where it fell down, that, once the education was seen as a government thing that take control of the best as the parent, that's not they'd taken control from the parent, and the parents quite readily gave that control to the state, they no longer had parental control mm so when they wanted to, to, to have a discipline in the home, they couldn't have it, because they didn't take part in the education and then yeah time that the education was put back to the parents to enforce both mm part of their early literacy but if you do try to the education you'll conflicting whatever they're teaching up there aren't you?, and then ya the end cha , the end of the chapter said that if parents were to re-take on the role of educating and disciplining children within the home mm to what they watched, the times that they were in yeah and that they took more erm more emphasis on the way their lives developed mm they might seen from the child's point of view as interfering parents, but in the long term this is what's er all about power and power though yeah isn't it yeah and the government yeah give you the impression that you've got a parents child, you've got a parents right but they've said that in the end it doesn't mean a thing that those children would be the ones that survive mm the social revolution from education back to illiteracy mm now cos they said it was all to do with social status yes, well you know actually you say that because like here I, I do, I mean I, I got all these books for Alex and I want to help him and I want him to have an advantage, but I don't want it to cause problems at school mm because he can read the first two books, now how they'll do it with him, he'll have to just look at the pictures and he'll go back to square one, and I've had him actually writing his words, doing letter formation, A, B, C, D yeah, but some books, in the books, in the book shop for sale doing that I'll have a look, but I've had him doing actual words, like first words er, you know erm, Ben and large and in and out and just the, the easy words and Luke and his own name, so he is already got the idea that when you write a letter you can't just write any letter, you've got to make letters say something either as erm, as an alphabet or in the form of words, so of course she says to, would you all like to write me a sentence, well he's already passed that stage, he thinks himself well I can't write a sentence, what he knows as a sentence consists of words that make sense, so they're all sitting there going a N, N, N, Q, R, S, N, T, T, and they're saying a sentence like I went to the shops with my nanny, well Alex has already passed that stage, he knows that that isn't sensible, so he must of turned to her and he said, I can't write like that, my mummy will shout at me yeah you know she told me about it, she says I think I must mention it and I said okay I won't do it any more and she said oh please do it, we need you to do it she said especially the letter formation, she says what just try and encourage him to write any old letters, just to make sure that he can form them without copying them yeah you with me?, cos I'm having him going over my words, but I felt really guilty about that, because I, the thought that he was frightened of me shouting at him and yet I think it's to do with passing over of all authority, I've been teaching him, I'm the one that does the words, not her yeah now he's got to transfer that authority, I don't think it's any more or less than that no you know what I mean, but the fact that I have been helping him has already conflicted and he hasn't been in school a week, you know, and then eventually when they get those books out and he'll say oh I know that one, that says Luke mm then again think what, what the hell is she gonna do with him and yet I keep saying to myself I shouldn't do it and then another bit of me saying why shouldn't I do it, why shouldn't I have to because every bit of encouragement you mm give him now the younger I think, yeah it's got to pay off, because he won't be struggling at the end of this year to be trying to read and write, he will of achieved that mm and when the learning process of new material comes along, he's not still struggling on learning how to read and write mm because you see the one's who still can't read properly have you see when they get to eleven yeah and they can't remember yeah they don't seem clever boys yeah, they have difficulty then picking up new material mm because they can only accept what's given verbally, they can't read for themselves oh I don't know no stopping him but I mean I, like I said, I volunteered to go and help with this, I ain't heard back from him yet no but that was the whole purpose to sort of volunteering on that, because I know that mm, would like, I think Chesterton at high school up at the swimming baths he's classed, it's nearly up to temperature oh cheers because the one it's so, don't go no, but, I mean our can read and he could read when he left the first class, he did really well mm he's perception of early words mm I mean he grasped what the word, he grasped the way she taught him and he soon learnt to read and he could retain those words mm I don't say he retains as much now yeah but reading I mean the thing is their own he, with last night somebody had, had erm birthday that, sort of his to be, group, she's, her daughter is forty odd, but she still helps out down at the school yes and er, they sent her er bouquet and a card for her birthday, she was seventy, and she wrote a letter back and she passed it around for every body to read, and there was, in her writing, which was very clear yes and in it was the word appreciation, now, he'd probably seen the word before, but he didn't know the word mm but he worked through and he managed to get out that it said appreciation yeah, yeah now, now I know if me sister's lad had got that he would have to he would have , he wouldn't be able to do it yeah, yeah and he would be only able to pick out a lot of the basic words, he could probably pick out the beginning of appreciation mm, yes but then he'd probably guess the rest of it where yes as John stopped guessing the rest of it, he now works out what it says yeah, yeah so I'm, I mean they do say that his reading ability he's, he's yeah up to standard yeah he's see he was not as pretty good as the other, I wouldn't like to say whether he could really turn up the application his writing yeah or something his writing's like mine yeah and I bear no responsibility for it responsibility but I did go into her and I said look, he's got my sympathy got my writing he is just like me he's brain is going too fast for the pencil yeah and he has to write it down, so you have to get it well if he gets it right however it comes yeah and because he's going so fast mm he's writing gets faster than he can do it neat yeah so he j , now he does make an effort in some of his books and, I mean they say write small, I mean on one page if he wrote any smaller I need a ma yeah, yes I need it under a microscope, it's so, and I said John you can't write that small, but she said write small and I said but, that is ridiculous small, yeah, it, yeah and see that's what they said, oh you're writing too big yeah keep it small so before you know, you know, it's usually like you know and they don't actually, yeah you need a microscope don't you to see it they're not actually printing, as soon as they can form the words, they join them well I was, I was get , I was just about to mention that I didn't like that you don't think it's right no I don't think it's right, my niece Sue doesn't think it's right, they're doing it in school, it's part of the national curriculum, as soon as they can form the letters now, they join them, I said I go to King university and I don't join up my letters no and you know it isn't stopping me why, why is the necessity though to accept joined writing it's back again to the old fashioned set, I mean I think nothing looks so untidy as to joined writing Howard he, he joins them in so many varied ways mm, well, yeah it's not uniformed for the whole sentence mm the same letters joined together once you get a bad habit and it slows your writing down as well yeah I've noticed how Simon's like that if he was to print very disjointed and then just joined those that were easy to join together and building it up that way, but he's doing curls on the bottom of G's and right and X like that? yeah, and I think it's ludicrous, it's old fashion isn't it?, he doesn't even real, what we used to call real writing no it isn't even proper joined up writing it's fancy isn't it? yeah it's like the, cos I keep saying if you must do those F's you do it at school I said, but do not do them for me, I said if you do I do not want to see them, but again you've got a conflict there between home and school well I think, I think his writing's and it must reflect on children got to be standardized, that it's legible, to teach them all to write as an individual allows them this that isn't, well that isn't given 'em individuality is it? well in the sense that they can all adopt their own way of joining words together if he lets 'em do that, but they're not are they?, you know, you've got to do your F like that, only like you say write letters and then, you know, join 'em, or you know join 'em as you write them but he's , he's aren't jo , our John's aren't uniform mm he's squiggle one thing about Simon's I mean he's his join up in so many varied ways mm like a G they will join up in exactly the same way next time he does it, even to the same letter I'm with you yeah, see Sam's got some learning, when he comes to spellings to me, again I would, I would print yeah, he only scrawled that down last night, he says I've got some spellings on sports mum, I said do you know any of 'em?, he said no, I said when's you test?, he says Friday, well I gotta book on all sports and then I read it because sports and you think hockey's one of them, oh yeah, racket, which is spelt wrong I've had to, I think it's got a U in, but again I mean sometimes, I mean I'm a good speller, I don't know about you, but I look at them sometimes and I have to go and get the dictionary have to check em mm you can see how he spelt croquet mm I think it is C R O U Q U E T. it is, mm but it's like you see, he gives them spellings and he puts perhaps three or four wrong in twenty and they're supposed to come home and check 'em, meanwhile he leaves them on the board for a whole week, which I think I've told you before yeah now when I don't get them till Wednesday night or Thursday night, I've got no chance of helping him really no actually I think he'll be alright with most of 'em, the problem he'll have is wi with racket and croquet, the, the others I think he'll be okay on it if he let's join in the K, you, your lad had the same problem as I with John. mm, mm. If you're going to teach joined up writing, there is a way of writing a K with a little loop that you can join up that's right, yeah, yeah but they are ending up draw, actually doing literally a capital K and then just joining it up, which is not and then joining it, well yeah yeah joined writing mm they're effectively having to re-write the word yes instead of it flowing mm if, I said, I said to John you see them with A's, they tend to do the A and then they join it at the top yeah I mean, and that's how Mr does it Mr said, it's not well can't we parents do something about this?, I mean were well this supposed to have parent power aren't we? well we had a parents' meeting on Monday night, but I didn't realize there was one the trouble is though when you have these meetings you go and people say well I don't agree with this and I don't agree with that and somebody says well this isn't the matter for the P T A this is a matter for the governors and then when you try and, like Gary I'll go and approach with the governors, surely this isn't a matter for the governors, this really ought to be, you know, the, the P, of the P T A yeah or they but I mean I can see that for he's got, he's doing exactly the same, literally a capital K in the middle of joined writing mm, yeah if you're going to join a K you, you, you should, I mean joined writing to me should be a soften version mm it should be a flowing version and to do a capital K like that is not exactly join mm I don't think I even join up some, I mean there's lots of words I do I don't think you can join up every letter cos when I've you can't tried to do joined writing, apparently we are supposed to do that as teachers, actually said gotta put their primary on primary education, it says sit down and write a poem in joined up writing and look at your own writing and before you try to teach it to children make sure that you know yeah what your look, same with your letter forage, I think mostly we were taught letter formation, which we haven't been for a few years now mm all of a sudden were going back on, on to it, aren't they?, so when I was my eldest he was, he was I mean I writing properly and but somebody like our John who's take my hand been doing joined writing since he was nine mm and it's, it's better than it was, but it still doesn't have but he's two years older than our Simon isn't he, our Simon's only nine now he doesn't have to it mm, you saying that at least the future, you doing it, do it uniform yeah, if you, follow yeah the same rules, don't just say to them well, I know they must give them they give Sandra you got time to sit, sit and do it with him, like I tried to do with Simon or he won't do it he won't work at home that's right he said at the end of the day I've had enough had enough, yeah and I, I mean that's another objection he's going to go why do you send him to school and then have to do school's work? no, no, I'd rather him give them the responsibility I'd rather him come home with half an hours work we've had this up there yeah because if he comes in from school he knows he's got half an hours work something productive from school yeah, yeah you at least can keep up with what he's doing because you can see that's right, yeah what he's doing mm otherwise you've only got two open days when you mm can go and, alright you can go in and tell him right the more you tell them, the more they left you know, even when you say to them what did you do at school?, then what did you do?, oh nothing much it was but if he comes in with some work, you can keep on the check of the standard that they're up to mm without having to keep going up to school, cos if you say to them oh well I'm coming to see, oh what you coming for? well that's what education's all about isn't it?, completely blocking the parents out plus at the end of the day when he comes in, you've at least got the chance to say right, you've got your homework to do, switch every thing off,sw put all these machines away and mm do your homework mm but now they haven't got any thing to do because their curriculum says even when you go in though too, I mean you say, well it's, it's voluntary homework it's voluntary , if they say to them can't you go and say I volunteer that my son has homework no every night if, if, if he says I've done it in class and I don't want to finish it off at home, that's fair enough, but what's gonna happen when he gets to secondary level and he's got this idea that if he doesn't finish it in class, that's it, he doesn't do it, he won't finish learning the topic mm, well we've been told this with Simon, you know needs to get to standard with them, with maths in particularly, before he goes up to secondary level you know because yeah secondary builds on what you've learnt in primary it's like maths only, int it? mm it builds on what you've learnt before but I honestly mm do not feel that to say at eight, nine years of age, you see the little one's bring reading books home mm because they've got to keep that reading going I know Simon never brings reading yeah books, I have to go in and say yeah can he have a reading book, well he's on level thirteen, he's doing well, but well, I always do it through the infants, they bring home reading books yeah and then it stops, they can bring a book home, but but it's choice it's choice again, they read in class mm and they keep their reading books from the li their library going at the pace they want to go at yeah and they don't have to bring them home, well John's got books at home, but it's like every thing else, he's too busy with the games machines and the television to be bothered to get a book out why don't you borrow theirs?, I've got, I've said that an all, all along they're actually good, should let your John have a look at these, some parts of it are boring, or some parts are really nice like the electric grade and, you know the fireworks oh yeah over there the show case and every thing yeah he might like that you know you can always fast forward it till it gets it right, but you've got all the characters coming round you know in all these cars and all yeah lite up and every thing yeah and there's bits of sea world on it I'm just trying to think, erm and little bits of M G M Studios, and stuff like that well erm I mean we went, we were last night, so, I mean he actually videoed er Battlestar Galaticca yeah you said yesterday so what had , so what had we got on this morning Battlestar Galaticca but briar to that we've got this game show, you know, a bit like er Blind Date and I mean I can't stand them any way, and I'm thinking I haven't got the patience in the morning when I've got dinners to put up and I've got them to get going yeah to spend every minute of that hour arguing well, yeah, yeah but I, I'd never get them done, and I mean I'd fed Matthew and I shouted down and I said look you'll have to come and get him dressed cos I've got dinners to put up yet yeah and it took me as long to put the dinners up and clean the shoes and I thought well he's swimming, so I got his togs and put 'em in his bag and mm it wasn't until we got to school, he says, guess what I've forgotten?, I says what's that?, me swimming stuff, well I said that's your fault, I said you I think there is a point at which you do have to yeah respond to it, I tend to do things like that I said I'm sorry , but you've had all And also because there's usually a waiting list to get on. Oh God! Yeah! Yeah. Sure there is. But er, the woman who used to run it er, I mean, I don't know whether she's still there, Doreen . She used to still be there. And then er, there was another woman occasionally. Erm but I think she's stopped, I don't know whether Doreen still does it or whether retired from it. Oh! Mm. But er I mean, these went to her. They didn't go to playgroup sessions, but they just went the mums and toddler session. Oh! Oh I see! See the mums and toddlers It's different sessions. you stayed with them. Oh! I see. Mums and toddlers you stayed and you supervise your own child. Oh no! I wasn't thinking about that, I was thinking about the playgroup downstairs. Well , there is playgroup where you leave them. I know, cos I used to take, er take Freddie up there er, when he used to he does Ah! Oh! swimming now. It's there you are you just put your finger in there a But Yeah. couple of times. he used to go that Yeah. play, when his mum had this thing in the Yeah. and then the rest er, you know, but most of it's . Cor! This is . Oh! She says she was supposed to be bring the money. She says, she says it's, she gets one thing and and Yeah. And they keep saying, why? She says well you'll . They get it, you know. Takes on it all she does Yeah. really. I mean, there's, he's only . Yeah. You know, just talking to him now he's obviously getting back at her. And they always said, we always say this should get he all? He's gonna get nothing! Yeah. And er . Do you wanna get out? Can you fasten that? I don't know. And we've got new He did then. About catalogue thing. We haven't heard yet. Oh haven't you? No. Cos we presume he's still got to come. Oh! Cos they said, you know, sort of Christmas time. Mm. And his mum rang up er, and he hadn't been, but he hadn't come as yet so er What you doing? Er Oh! John! She's er Nan,cartoons she's out to lunch. just come on! Yeah okay. There's been such a lot of faff about so Is that up? It's been broken. Oh has she? Yeah. Well, the doctor said it was that. Yeah. Erm because erm she started Wednesday but they're living at Stanborough Mm. And, she didn't, she wasn't too bad But then it the bones are broken right down her hand. And on the Monday morning my dad rang the doctors and he sent her a prescription and on the Thursday he had to call him out. Mm. And she coughed that much she pulled all the muscles in her ribs. And he said she'd done more damage with coughing than she had anything Yes. else. Yeah. Yeah. She got She had another prescription and it was nearly three weeks and she still, now, I mean this is like Five weeks she's still got like a residual Mm. cough. Mm. And rubbish oh she was, I mean she never got out of bad for a week! Oh no. My dad, well in fact, we, we were laughing at my dad because we said, we said, it shut her up for a bit! Cos, he says I'm I mean I will , she looks after him all the time Mm. but with her being ill it, she says it gave him another sense of duty that Mm. he had to look after her. Look after her, yes. And he forgot all his own problems for the Oh yeah! week! Well you do don't you? Yeah! Yeah. Yeah. And we had to laugh, he said, well can you be ill a bit longer because he, er, he cooked her something to eat and he feeds her and so when I rang up I never got her on th , I never spoke to her for a week! She couldn't talk. Couldn't she? She said she couldn't even get out of bed, she couldn't do anything. Twenty five! He just had to look after her all the time. Yeah. But, like, you know, he says the way it struck her one minute, you know, she just a mild cold and next minute, he said the next she's so bad! Mm! She couldn't get out of bed nor nothing. What the heck is this? Yeah. It really took hold in a few hours. Mm. Well I've heard But she the, flu, I mean, you hear a lot of people Mum! say Ooh! You know they've had flu You know you said to dad but but they haven't really, they just had bad colds. I mean I've Yeah. never had the flu Shall we race? but I've seen Yeah. what flu can do to people. If you ca If you get flu it's really bad! Mum, it's come off. Usually you don't get a Terrible! cold, following a cold with flu, what you No. tend to get with flu is more aches and pains in your Aches and pains joints Yeah. very bad head Mm. and get fever I want that ! but when you get a co , like you call flu, it's usually just a head cold. It is. It is. I've never had flu. But I I don't get many colds and it Yeah. comes out, comes out at New Year's Day, I was at home then and it erm going to come back New Year's Day Yeah. and then er they said, oh no I'll let, let us take you through the erm Conway Tunnel the new Oh yeah! tunnel, you know, so I've been through there Yeah. and I started that day with this cold Yeah. and it's not like me. I one, I once had the flu Mm. and I knew I've had it. I did it lasted about Yeah. three days. Felt foul! Yeah. I felt really Yeah. as if it's as if you've been anaesthetized! Yeah. Cos everything aches and It everything's a dead weight and because you can't, if you move your head it's, it's that much Much and all your joints ache. Mm! And the trouble is with not moving that thingummy builds up and then you get this very bad cough down your chest. Yes. Yeah. But erm oh! Like this cold with me, it's like in my nose and in my Yeah. head, that was all. You know, I didn't even have a headache. But, I've Mm. taken it worse. Well I've had pleurisy. Anyway , my sister's bought me this thing to go round my neck. Because you know Mm! I've got to go and get the . But she comes Mm. on Monday with it. Coalite, you know, erm Mhm. just got it round, you know like they had Yeah? er, my orthopaedic pillows Mm. one of those, only just a round one to go round your neck. And it it like warms your neck up. Cos I tried one of . But this is smashing! Oh! It's like a little neck rest for when you're sitting Yes! in the chair. Yes! Yes! Yeah. Yes! My mum's got one. Oh! Then It's like . Oh! Yeah, but I thought, sounded as if they only did tho , those that you blow up and this isn't, you can put it in, in the wash or anything. Oh right! To wash. Oh yeah! He got it on the market. It's the same, same thing What, made of like foam? Erm well I don't know what it's made of inside. Er,soft stuff, I don't know. Oh! Yeah. It's great! Cos my mum bought one for my dad Yeah. because when they go on coach trips Well that's right. you can't sleep properly in them. Do you know, when I went, last one, with the club I thought I'm not going again! I was bad for over a week with my neck! Anyway, they bought me this you know and er and, she said you'll be able to go on your trips. Yeah. We've had a bring and buy today at the club. Oh have you? I've been there since before one! Rita come and pick me up, you know,stuff, and er you know, we did alright. There'll be a Beetle drive erm end of February I think. Oh are you? Yeah. Erm we owned a little and just thought I'd ask the party see how many things that cropped up as a result John! of this er, you know, this if anybody had had any complaints Complaints, yeah. or anybody thought something didn't work right and erm Julie's started organizing a plan day again And plans , of course she did, yeah. Yeah. Cos she's having some sent this year. Oh is she? from Central Ford Probably would be better. Well she said she didn't mind having at home but erm Terry said there was too much for them all Yes. to be honest the mess it must have left her! And she was worried about getting the stuff up there, and I said Mm. well there's Jenny's car, there's Mm. my car Mm mm. and even if I can't take it up on the day, I could probably take it up the night before. Mm. Mm. And I don't think anybody'll mind the night before. No. And put plenty of newspapers down. Yeah. Well, I'm not too sure. I might find that by then my days have altered and I will be on the Thursday. Mm. At the moment I'm going to have it increased and it is for the, from Friday now. Oh are yo oh So when what at the University? Yeah. But How er I didn't know you didn't go on a Thursday. Well I do I asked you if you had time, your car there but See, I did go last week Yeah. on Thursday Oh! but I don't got there. Oh! Oh I see. I'm only part-time, part-time there. Oh are you? It's less than part-time. Well I didn't kno a , erm gonna say? Are you going in from Ma Manchester. Well, that's what, I mean That's when you're going out with me isn't it? Yeah. Er I mean, all I want Win, is something to do for four years than sit at home being a housewife and hang yourself as well! Yeah. I tried for a job. The answer I tend to get off a lot of places is that I have to wait for twelve years Mm. and we don't, we don't think that you could do the job. I know I could do the job, but Yeah. you can't persuade people you can do it. Oh no! No. And working these odd nights in a care, a nursing home, the pay's not good enough to keep a family on. Oh no! It's not enough. So if I'm going to think long term I've got to got to work Mm mm. then I need to be able to get a a job that will pay sufficient. Yeah. Yeah. But, you only have to earn a little bit and you lose your benefit. So, you'll be ending up on the breadline worse than ever Yeah. for what? Thought as well, I've never had the chance to go, I'd like to go Mm. Mm. realistically I would like a job if I could get one and I'm feeling very pessimistic about getting one, because the chances of getting a job at my age, when there's youngsters coming around Mm. it's not going to be easy but if Mm. if there were any jobs I would be quite happy to take part- time. Time, yeah. Yeah. And I really need a job that Can supply I need, I need to have to to give, I know how we feel but he's getting older Mm. Matthew's getting, you need a, more physical looking after Mm. and long term when the holidays come round he takes a lot of looking after! So we really we one of us to be here to look after him in that sense, one of us gets paid Mm. to look after him, but in the school holidays, you know, it takes two of you to and mind him, because Yeah. you need time off in the day when you're physically resting to him. Mm. But if there's only one of you I thought, I dunno you can't do it! I mean, I don't know how yo er ca , cos I I funny neck, you know Well you couldn't though, but bearing in mind with my neck and we are so much younger Younger , that's and physically we've got no ailments that are preventing That's right. us from doing it. Mm. But he's even becoming a complete, in the holidays when I've got the housework to do and meals to cook, and him to look after if there's another pair of hands that can take him out for an hour Mm. Mm. and leave you free to do a job, because you may think I mean, believe it or I've turned this room inside out today! Mm mm. It doesn't take him two minutes before Oh I know! I don't care about the mess I mean , yeah I know. least of your worries Oh! and say get everything out and toys you Yeah! know, and what I say. I mean once I've cleared up, you know, when she's gone and and don't mind seeing I I don't mind this. No. I have this room, I've all Mm. the cushions, all Mm. the dining chairs, I've had everything out at least I haven't cleaned the windows but, I was half way through, well I was almost finished, I'd just just done the stairs though and Bernie came! And I thought well it's clean Mm. I'm not Mm mm. bothered. No, that's it. But That's it. You can't with When he's here children you just I couldn't, I couldn't start doing it now! No. How could you? And I have cleaned round him, but you know, as quick as I pick them up and throw them in the corner, he gets them out again. Yeah. Yeah. And then with all these, I mean He's bound to. it's, there's ne , there's a never a No, not at all. there's never a time when there's flung all over half the time! Yeah. Yeah. Er I just don't know how you cope? Well I mean I'm, I've got an easy time at the moment because I'm on today. I only up to seven hours in a fortnight. That's all I want. Yeah. Is that a Six hours a week. at home? No it's here. It's here. Oh I know! Yeah. Oh! I didn't realise that! Six hours a week. And you go and And you always there a away on holiday? See a Because we always say oh no Sandra there's nothing, you can't there Well that well that was last term. Everybody in the first term is in in the morning. Oh! Four mornings a week, it was compulsory. And it isn't compulsory this term, if you're doing education. And er Oh! I'm doing education so I'm not in in the morning. Oh that's why you ta , can take them to school then is it? Well I was taking them anyway. I know you were, anyway, it Yeah. goes till eleven didn't it? Just Erm after eleven was it? Ten Yeah. or eleven wasn't it? The o , the only thing I'm doing now is the subjects that I want to do Mm. on the degree course Mm. but, it's education. And literally, I got, but I was got so little on I felt that if I didn't do some extra Mm. Me, I I mean, I've done I've done no work today because I went out to collect some stuff of a friend this morning and by the time I came in it was quarter past ten and I'd gone out at ten to nine so I'd missed the schools Schools, mm. and I'd told Pat I'd go to and sing Mm. and I've not come back till twelve! I've I've done some dinner, we've cleaned up and Bernard's turned up, have you done any work yet? I mean, this is me, I'm quite capable and I make i And have you gotta go in the morning? No, I don't go up till tomorrow afternoon. Oh! Tomorrow afternoon, rather, yes. Well , I've got fre , I've got bills to pay down town. Do they have to go every day? No. So you haven't, not every day then? I go, two hours on a Monday Yeah. Two hours on a Tuesday, one on a Wednesday and one on a Friday. That's it. Fri , that's it, you see it's all well it's been like thought int it? You gotta go Well what I four times. what I've actually done to get that six hours in. is I've taken on another short course. Mm.. Not, because I need to take it on, but No. when I looked at it I wanted to do it. It's only a Mm. four week course, but he's running it for two hours for two weeks. Oh! Instead of one hour for four weeks he's Mm. doing two hours for two weeks. Mm. And it looks so interesting! Mm. And I wanted to do it. And I tried to get on it at the beginning of the week but he told me it was fully booked. Mm. Well I left my number so Mm. that, any cancellation she'd ring me up. Well I'd already spoken to the man who was running the course, the lecturer and he told me I could go on it, but his secretary said it was booked. Oh! I mustn't have been out of that office half an hour and I'd, she'd rung here and left a message to say I could go on it. Oh! And there were two more people in front of me that was waiting to go on the course. The course, yeah. Any road, erm when I went back to see her she said of the ones who came and asked to go on it, we've accepted you, but no more. But, if I hadn't have gone on Monday Monday I wouldn't have got on. Wouldn't have got in. No. And we only went No. we went back Friday for exams Yeah. and then we went back in on Monday. Oh you're doing well aren't you with your exams, so Mary Well tells me? Yeah , I've had erm Cos I keep as ,a ask Mary you know, when I I've had see her. four four points I've got three on the B's Mm. and I got one on the C's. Well C's count but it's the bottom pass. Yes , I know. Erm and it's quite, you know and it's a subject I've never done before Mm. and the woman who took the course she did say had she had done the reading work it Mm. wouldn't have been the reading that we were given, because she said the brief in the erm th the work that we've had to read Mm. Mm. was far too erm advanced for people who had never done the subject before. She said, I don't care whether you are at university, there are certain areas that you need to know a lot more background before you can do it at this level. Yes. Mm. And, the reading lists were unbelievable! And we couldn't get half the books out the library because other courses had taken them, we Mm. had ever such a job getting them! I mean, I know, one, one essay I had to write erm wa was erm literally what constituted a person as far as philosophy? Mm. I mean, you know what makes a person up, you know, heads Mm. arms, legs, bodies Yeah. but, what makes ea up a person in the mind? Mm. And the other subject, that we had an essay on oh! I know which one! Co could a person survive, can a, can a person, and he put person in inverted commas, not for the the physical body, but to be the person inside the body Mm. could they survive their own death? And if you, if you had a religious knowledge Mm. that dead, there is a life hereafter Mm. then the answer has to be yes. Mm. But you have to show how you believe that the person in you survives their own death. Mm. Well I mean, I could have said it in about ten words, yes I believe they can because, but that didn't answer the question, you had to do between fi er So many words, words? a thousand and fifteen hundred words. Words , yeah. And I'm not, oh Win! I've not thought of any kind of death. And I got myself you've got use other philosophers Mm. erm work, to prove your theory. Yeah. Well, I got myself all tied up between the the who said what and me which said where and Mm. and I found it really Mm. difficult Mm. I know! to put it into words. Mm. Well, I must admit I got about the bottom mark. And then she's written nearly as much in red ink on the back as I've written it on black ink on Black ink. the front ! Mm. Has he gone out? And er she erm she said, I know what you wanted to say and I appreciate that you find it difficult to put it into words Mm. and the biggest tragedy is that I know you know what you want to say Say. Mm. but I can't mark you on what you've not put. Mm. In the class see actual oral erm knowledge, I could talk with any of them and put my point a , and I could come up with ideas couldn't put it down in Down writing. Yeah. Mm. So she put a few ideas on the back and said when you do the next one try following these ideas of organizing the different parts of the essay. Erm there were two at the end discuss the works of either Descartes or oh, can't think of the other one! And, the other one was erm are the attributes of ! Ooh! Er, are there special attributes or personal attributes only found in humans? What it's asking, and it's a most ambiguous question, I mean, I think the question was Mm. didn't make sense! It did machines are machines people don't you think? Like computers. Oh yeah. Yeah. Are we producing machines that now have brains and minds that think? Well, the answer to that is, no. Mm. I mean if if I'm put on a ladder with a television set then forget it, because Yeah. I'm no you know Mm. but I sat down and we hadn't actually done the lecture well I couldn't do this other one because I didn't understand this No. er reading and I ha , I couldn't hold of enough of the material in the time I'd got to write the essay so I wouldn't have studied enough, so I did this one on machines, and I got hold of two good books. And they were really interesting to read! Compared to what we've had to read. So I wrote this essay Mm. and she put on the back of this one she was thankful that at least I'd managed this time to get the mark in the area where it should have been in the first To be in there. place. Mm. And, I mean, she was a brilliant woman for lecturing Mm. this subject! Mm. And it was just a pity that the material she was given or told us to read, she said was too advanced for us. Mm. But when you go in on a subject like philosophy, to jump in at that level how adjusted you are it's difficult if you've not got any academic background to suddenly come in and have to start doing it. I mean, psychology was as bad! Yeah. I found that difficult! Mm. My nephew got on A in philosophy! Mm. And he, he says erm he didn't really study that much because he was going, like, he was erm doing languages and er because they they were, moaned at him for not keeping up cos of this project, quite a few of them, you know Yeah. and he took philosophy and got A in it! Yeah. He does er supply teaching. He, he Yeah. went over to Australia now, he went to America and like, went to Australia now! Mm. Because supply teaching he finds it pays better than I suppose it's it's a better rate of pay but It pays it pays better. It's if you're on enough books to be able to get supply for every day, if you don't mind just flitting around. Yeah. Yeah. Er, if you get known as a good supply teacher you'll get the work to to begin with, you might only get an odd day. He, he was thrilled because he he got er, his name on the board so the head Oh! of two subjects Come on John! Mummy's here! Mm. Go get your shoes. Oh! Go get your shoes! We're hiding mummy! Ah! Oh! Oh ! John! Alright then, bye! One down One. Mm. What time is the other one gone? He'll say, my mum says I have to be home for seven. He's been here since what? Twenty to four. Yeah. I always wonder when he ac I dunno, I don't know what the time is? Do you want Mm? not so bad, it must have knocked the telly on. Oh I see now!, the power? Oh No. no, did he he, he dropped something down was it Well it's twenty five to five. Twenty five to five? Yeah. Yes. I must be going. Except this Matthew. Looks like somebody should er Oh it, well has he dropped something down there? I heard something drop but what would it be? No erm, I couldn't get this to There's nothing down there he could have done. No, I couldn't get the television on earlier so I'm thinking he Oh! I see. he sort of must have switched it off and switched it back on. Oh! Oh! But you have to use the box. Mm. Oh I know. Having trouble with my on off erm Are you? I'm waiting for them to well they're going to fix it soon. You know, it seems everything round now goes wrong! Oh yes, he's been round there for the new . Oh! Now it rains underneath and oh er the switch is gone and I'm waiting cos they're a shop, I think they've never been down, while they're waiting for the rep to come. You see, so he has to just plug it into the wall. Mhm. You know. And I'll have to find another Oh! another, yeah. In the it's only just till the rep comes he said, when I saw her last week she said like you know, he hadn't been if he No. Oh I usually watch telly as you Yeah. know. I'm not gonna Well when the kids leave it then when the kids are in here, I don't get to watch any of my programmes. But they've Lovely! gone upstairs to play on the computer so er Mm. Well erm oh oh oh! Tony up there, he's had meningitis you know,at risk he said. And she was saying, I don't really believe, it was quite quite sort of used to have a beeper on him Yeah. that's so so that he breathes properly. Yeah. Now he's been taken ill with this so, she hopes that he don't and get behind you know but it's the head in it? And Yeah. er I mean I'm quite happy up there, you know even if at the end I don't get to end I mean I'd like to get to Has long does that go for? It's four years! It's four years? I mean I could have had it I might It's Well four years? Yeah, because this first year is an induction year. Oh! If you haven't got a qualif I was gonna say because Peter is with the three year Yeah , it is three years And then, because he went in er, he didn't want, he, he wanted er go as a teacher He did another he did year. another twelve months a , well he passed, that's right, so he did four. You ca , you can do, it can master five, because you can do this er, if you haven't got the A levels Mm. you need to this first year and it gets you up to that level I see. Oh yeah. Well right? you did O levels, yes. Then you do the three years Mm. degree Mm. then you do the teaching certificate which Mm. is another, so it could be five. I know that's how , how he did the Right? four. Yes? But, what you can do at is the teaching certificate with the degree which is what I'm doing. oh I see! Ah! So his final year he does teaching Yeah, for four years. I'm doing it through the four years of the course. Mm. Mm. If you go on Oh yeah. the foundation U,yo you've got the option to start the teaching certificate in the first year. Oh I see. So, where he's done the extra year at the end if I do this extra year at the beginning I can start the teaching certificate. Yeah! He decided right at the end he wanted teaching. And he Yeah. stayed on, he he passed something in exam or something and Yeah. he stayed on. Yeah. And then after that erm, he said well, well he can please himself and I suppose he he erm, well I think er,year. So many of them from Uni they these children in America and erm Mm. schooling, you know erm people there that erm got money Yeah. and they've got the children in, you know, these . Yeah. and so many of them now they go, er to erm Mhm. America. Mm. And er it was all paid for, you know and it's for three months, and then they're getting six weeks off I think and he went to do some fishing down in Canada and all that. But, for three months he never had you know, seven days a week like, you know. Mm mm. And er, since then he come back, he got a job his name was on the board, he said, oh it's lovely seeing your name on the board, the head, er, and in two subjects! You know? He just gave it up like that and he went to Australia! He's, he's never married, he's twen , twenty eight. He's Mm. No he isn't, he's twenty nine. Er, let me think, Catherine's twenty six, he isn't, he's damn well thirty! Catherine's twenty six Yeah. Yeah,he must be thirty. And erm now he's a supply teacher in now he's got a band or something , I dunno. No. Do your own thing while you can. Just doesn't want to go back to, he likes Australia as well! And he liked Canada better than America. Mm mm. And erm well he just wants to enjoy himself I think. A girl who I go with, she's been teaching as well and her husband's already in the hope that when she finishes they're going to emigrate to America to . Mm. Because like she said, here he's been made redundant once, and he stands another chance of just starting Yeah! another school and he's Terrible! all set for it again! Terrible! Terrible! It's going to be around again they've only got so many people . Yeah. I mean, I'm sort of looking realistically that after four years that the education system changes Mm. there won't be enough jobs. Mm mm. But I'll have done something for four years. I won't Yeah. have been sitting here Yeah. doing part-time work Mm. feeling as if I'm not using the resources I've got. That's it. And I get annoyed! Mm. And I know, I suppose people said oh, well, why put yourself through it? But, you know, I thoroughly enjoy it! Mm. I really do! I was going to say, if you enjoy it why not? I e , enjoy the process of of Why not? finding things out. Yeah. Some of it I find a bit er a bit too obvious but in the same way erm on, on the sociology side, I get a bit angry because I see what society does to people. People. That's right. And theoretically, it sounds wonderful! Mm. And it doesn't work like that. Mm. You know Mm. if it worked like they say things work it would all be nice for everybody, and it isn't. Mhm. It isn't, no. Yeah. So, I do get a bit ac , I mean,th there's, there's one young girl in the class and, we were on about women's role in society and going on about third world woman, but even western woman have their position, you know, she does the housework Mm. and Mm. the shopping and the cooking and the sa , she made a remark,abo , and I said well it's always the same even if you go out to work it's still your job Job, yeah. and she said well my mother goes out to work, but we help. And I said, well what do you mean, you help? She said well we all help on the weekends, even my dad helps, I said, but who actually makes the decisions about what you do, what you eat, what you buy Mm. how you cook it, when you have it, who actually runs the house? Well we all, I said no! One of you actually runs the finances, the shopping Mm. the decisions to be made, who's responsibility is, cos you just said, we help, you don't make those decisions, your mum No. still takes on the responsibility there! Yeah. And, at the end of a we , when I put it back into the, the conversation Mm. it was well, erm I do my bit. I said, well your mum's been out to work five days a week and you just help Mm. you know, you should do it Mm. if that's not her role, but you've given her that role. Yeah. But she Yeah. likes to do it! I said, how do you know she likes to do it? Does anybody ever say to her, well I'll do it Oh I know! instead? Mm. I said, are you married? She said no. I said, well are you likely to be? She said, well yes but I'm not having any kids, I said probably that's a good thing, but I said she was so selfish in her attitude! Yeah, that's it. She would help so that was all it needed! Mm. Mm. I said the onus on the woman in the house to think, to plan, to prepare it's her! Yeah. There are a few men that do it Mm. but by and large, most men say, oh well the wife all the time. Mm. And if it's not right, then it's well it's your fault! Fault. And in a lot of marriages the wife's total responsibility and if it wasn't done she is the one responsible. Mm. This is how a lot of them fall the by the wayside because Yeah. husbands think their fault is they've no money, when in all accounts he's probably had more to spend on his luxuries than she's had on food. Mm. But if you just can't manage it's her fault! Fault. Not the rising prices and things. And it was this young girl's attitude! I was amazed! And I said well I, all I'm saying, I was really angry! Mm mm. I was getting so with her! Because I said, you're another woman! You're a selfish . You don't even Yeah. understand the first principles of what being a woman is, if that's what Mm. you think! Mm. Well there were other married ones in the group Mm. and there was another with a child Mm. And she said to her afterwards she said oh! I could have gone mad, you know, but the tragedy is that during the courses a lot of them and I expect that the best time to learn is when you're young and you're more receptive. Well yes! That's right. But they've no experiences a lot of No. them No. No. and they're not appreciating how difficult it is for some of them families to send them there. Oh! And a lot of them do waste that time. Mm. Did ex , even went to so that the . Did they? Yeah. Some of them Three years term. Er, the following year's term. They come And asked why, well I know why she didn't turn into the morning lectures well I don't get up usually, till half eleven, twelve o'clock. Oh! I said, what do you mean? She said, I'm not an early riser. I said, but you've got to get up to get to the Mm. lectures. I can't, she says. I says well you can if you set the alarm the clock! Mm. Oh! She says, I can't get up early! I said Good grief! there are a lot of people in this place who have got up and done a day's work before they've come here! I said I, even I've got up and got children up and off to school. I said, I've got my own responsibility, that's mine, I said, but you're only responsibility is to be in that lecture for ten o'clock. You've only got to roll out of bed Good grief! walk across the road! She said, I don't like getting up before half eleven, twelve o'clock! Ah! Oh!. And, I said and you're being supported to stay here! She said, everybody's helping. I said, and this is what you're doing Anna? You're not turning up? Every time I co , I put my face to the window they go, oh no, he's back again! So I erm You started before I am. I know I am. I can't help it if I'm handsome! Ooh! Your vain as well aren't you? Well just, I am, I a , I mean, I ain't bothered anyhow! I'll my dad went in there he said do you mean, do they take your ? He said erm he said you can take it out can't you? I said, I don't want to. Oh then I'll change my mind, he said wanna leave work here like. He said, oh you're modest are we? I said, yeah! Said he said well you could you take it er, and scare your friends? I said, it's okay well we've got a instead and I went. How long you been going up the Rainbow Centre? Erm I er, I don't go every day, I go every Thursday like. Er, well I don't go weekly like No. Ooh! I just go on a Thursday, but I don't go week you see? Cos er I, like I should, really I wouldn't have bothered going today. I'd have gone the next Thursday after like. Cos, today was really a waste of my time cos there's only half that do you see. But, if I'd gone next Thursday there'd be e English, and then it'd be a a job for them if they If they're hard. they're hard, yeah like and my, my my dad wouldn't take . I ju , it, you see I'll, I work until the end nearly eleven o'clock in the day to yo , to work start work today like on the art. So I start straightaway you know. So how long you been going up the Rainbow Centre? Can't think in the arts, in the art bit so I just I just go in for a coffee as well, yeah. So it'll be . All the women say they can't wait to get rid of me! I say you can't, you love me really don't you? Say oh yeah, we love you, yeah! But we got rid of you! Things like that, you know. I mean, you can get on with people like that that you've never met before you co , to get on at college exactly the same. And yet you can actually I ju , it's you see I I would have Are they jam? until the end What? nearly eleven o'clock I think he's taken yours on there. Got to start work at He has! You can take these. And I started straightaway, you know, like No,! I can't think in the art, in the art thing cos I like to I'd just finished my coffee as well and You've got to repeat everything on the board is he? Yeah. All the women say they can't wait to get rid of me! I say, you can't, you love me really don't you? Say, oh yeah! We love you, yeah! But we got rid of you! Things like that, you know. Is that my colouring? We're just joking . Well if you can get on with people like that that you've never met before you can, you'd get on at college it's just the same. Yeah, so if you can't find one I'll use the one what I was gonna do. So that erm Over there. Do you want a cup of tea then? Right down What? Yeah. Has Ian taken yours on then? He has. You can take these? And I think that you'd have to have Yeah. another word after that. Go on, off you go then! Ah er, yeah I've just thought of one. Make your own up. It's not fair if I help is it Matthew? You've got this . Yeah, but looking at college like I've come from school like, and I never liked it at school. Different I mean that entirely different set up! It i don't look at it as school Is that my college is adult education, and the fact that you're all adults the relationship between you and the lecturers is not the same between you and teachers. In a class, where you were at school, they told you what to do. Well maybe it's because I look at it as a school like that's You shouldn't! it. Well I just got this thing, you know, about You shouldn't. something But you've got an adult there. relationship between you and the lecturer. And it's up to you to learn what they're telling you. If you don't learn, at school they'd give you detention and lines and punish you for not doing it, if you don't do it at college it'll be your mistake and your fault I learn alright. but you'll learn because you want to and not because you're made to, and there's a difference. Yeah , but sometimes you, I go , got I told dad about this lad, got this this lad, he's crazy and that keeps, keeps erm joking and everything, running around acting a right fool like yo , and that! I mean, I'm scared of anything up, they'll be some conflict and you do get these kind of people in college as well it frightens me You wouldn't get them at night college, because people who go to night school go because they want to learn, and if there's any you've got running around as you call it, will be thrown out! Cos lecturers at night cos they're not compelled. People aren't made to go to college at night, people go because they want to. If you muck about in the class the lecturers have got every right to send you off the course. But er, this guy, he's crazy! Erm I got blamed, I think that I was er, doing his like if you taking his er what do you call them When you come out of there I mean, if you do like we when I've ever gone I take my shampoo with me and you can have a shower and wash your hair, get the chlorine off you and they do sell er, chips upstairs and they're not very expensive. You can have cup of soup out the machine for about twenty pence. That's sounds as if it's pretty cheap. And I mean, if you set a list to do something for a day Yeah. I mean, by the time you'd set off walking you could set off at eleven and walk there till twelve go in there till two then you Have you ever been to the pictures in that po , in erm oh what do you call the ? In Festival Park. Yeah, we went Oh, how much is it to get the pictures, I mean If you go at the six o'clock showing, Monday to Friday it's two pound ten pence for you. Yeah? That's, that's cheaper than the one,th the one up , about What two pounds fifty up there. No. If you go the six it's gone up, it's two po , it's gone up to two twenty hasn't it? It was always cheaper. But if you go any other showing or on a weekend it's three pound eighty. Well it's it's it's it's much more expensive up in the you know the Hanley one? The Cannon was always cheaper. That's, that's expensive. But , if you go at the six o'clock showing here it's two pound ten pence for you. That's , it's about two pounds fifty at erm, for me to get into the It was Hanley one. No. It was two pound, and one eighty on the six o'clock showing. But it's just gone up to two pound twenty. Yeah. But, I mean, it's nice at the Festival Park one,i it Yeah. but go for the six o'clock showing cos it's two pound ten pence. Yeah. I mean, that's alright, but when you think you're spending two pound ten pence and then, if you come out and you want a drink Yeah. and you Mum! And you want . Is this a word? S O E? Sorry, what? Er erm Mum is this a word? What? No, hang on! S O E? Yeah. No, you want S O W, S O S O S O W Yeah. What else have you got? No I haven't got that. What el , well well show me what else have you got and I'll tell you what you've got. Sot is a word. S O T. Erm there are erm it's, I mean I, we don't go very often, but over the Christmas holidays Yeah. er, we actually went up to see erm Mum! Is Sot a word? Yeah. Just said it is. We went to see one that was twelve only. Anthony says it isn't a word! Tell him to look in the dictionary. S O P? Z O P! I said S O T! Yeah, well that's a Z John! I said Z. You said S. Said Z! You said S! Erm cos one of the kids wanted to watch a twelve, and I got him in. But it was too th the, the language on it wasn't, it wasn't bad language but it No. was difficult for them to understand because Yeah. it was more mature language. But then we went to see Suburban Commando. Oh! Oh that's good Hulk Hogan. that is! With erm Oh it was fantastic! with erm It's hilarious! Er I like And it it when they go up to camp Well we have W W F wrestling on here you know. Course you can. Yeah. This is what John's always. And er But erm I said I'd take, we went to see another one as well, erm oh that Cu erm I'll tell you what i , what we went Curly Sue we went to see. Oh! Cur , oh I keep thinking of going to see that one. Yeah, just a That , that's funny, but I think for you Suburban Commando would have been better. Yeah. It's still on. But it's only on now er weekends. And the cheap showing is twenty past eleven in the morning on a Saturday. Don't care! Erm what's on at Cannon. It isn't on there, it's finished. But that really was, it was funny! Mm. Er, ha, that was good when she said, says er he said okay,yo , take the bag then. Hot Shots, we went to see that was it. Yeah. But Hot Shots. the, the, the ha , the humour is too adult for th , these to understand. Yeah. They said twelve, but I think really for the humour alone they needed to be about fifteen or sixteen because they didn't understand it. Yeah. We went to see Suburban Commando and then went to see Curly Sue. Right. Hello. Hello! I thought it might be. You've just interrupted my thinking session here! Ooh I know, but it's staying off so you'll realise why! Yes, I'll be in the morning. No. I will go out at half past two, well, twenty past two I shall go out and I won't be back till half past six. I mean, if you come before ten. Alright. I'll get back in from the kids ou , you know, literally, a minute past nine, so yeah. Okay then. Bye! Er, I mean, I don't go not because I don't enjoy the pictures but I think that it's got to be something really special. Yeah. But over the Christmas holidays I was prepared to take them. I didn't fancy Hot Shots, but I took them. Yeah. I fancied Suburban Commando, and that really is funny! And then I took I love ca , some comedy Yeah. like! I like and then we went to see the Curly Sue a good laugh. no it's brilliant! It really Yeah. is funny! But if you were going and choosing a pa , a film, I'd have said you'd have preferred the Hulk Hogan one. Yeah. But er I would do, yeah, I like that one that's I mean , this one doesn't look bad does it? Dunno. What's it called? Frankie and Johnny. See the cheap showing on this is five to six. Have you ever watched erm Home Alone? On video. That's good that Home Alone! Mm. He's really cruel to those two bank robbers, they're gonna rob the house like! 'kin hell!that erm on video like, video Mm. it's brilliant! Really cruel to those guys . Ah! And his mother's up in the plane and she she says erm I'm sure we've forgotten something! Forgotten something ! And she's looking in her purse and everything and suddenly she goes I know what it is! It's our son! Then she . And and then, er the, the uncle what what comes up and he said, well I think I've, erm what did he say now, I've forgotten? He er forgot my comb or summat and something like that, he said I've forgotten my comb and we might be going out. I mean, some films I think they're pathetic in so much that the story Yeah. line is very poor! Yes. And they try and do it with a lot of gimmickry and Yeah. the way they do the filming. Yeah. And, if the story line isn't very good, I don't care what they with effects the film doesn't work. Yeah. But that Suburban Commando Ah! That was good-un that! I'd like that. it was absolutely brilliant! I haven't watched it, but I'd love to watch it if ever I Yeah, it's brilliant! And I watched er, some of their clips coming on the T V like. Yeah. I was just looking but there's no wrestling on telly at the mom , it's foot er Ei either football or African football, Cameroons and Zaire. Fucking hell ! Er I mean it is, I I like watching it morning when the skiing's on. Yeah. I don't mind the er some wrestling though. Oh, I like a good laugh! Oh! No bother. No. No. I like the winter sports, you know,th the skiing and all that that I watch. We watched Crewe play Liverpool live on here you know, last week. You can watch a lot on this er, Sky T V Oh! now can't you? Some of it's a load of rubbish! And I could keep watching it Bit like this over and over again. Sky sports, football! Ah. I mean, you're going to Africa. Yeah. I'll have to go for a little walk. And it's alright but yo I mean there's British football Yeah. drives you daft! Some, yeah. But when you've been, Italian, German, French, and now you have the African league , you know, and you think there must be more too it than this! Some other channels aren't bad Oh yeah. but er see this is er, and this is Africa but, I mean it's on all the time int Yeah. it? Yeah. Getting all this These are foreign language ones, you can't get them in English. Oh yeah. You'll have to sit there with a book and you can That's an advert. Cos that's another sports channel. This is all advertising. This is actually one of the fas , most fascinating programmes that comes on cos you get all these just look what we can do here, you know, and all American adverts. that And cos they're really bad for that! one advert can last an hour! Ridiculous! An hour? Yeah! Mum, is yeal a word? Eh? What? Is yeal You just Y E A L? No. So you mean, it goes on all the way through with just adverts all Yee? day or Yee? Yee? No. Does it do adverts on any of the others? Mum! Or don't they do adverts? Does it count if it's in the dictionary. It's got to be in the dictionary for it to count. This is er bit like Blind Date. Oh. This is those blokes used to live up here. Yeah. He's a stunt man. Is he? Mm! 'kin hell! Yeah, but these are single single ladies. He was on er he was on, he he was a D J on the radio. Bruno Si Brookes. and single. Mm! He's he's on Radio One. I think it mi , might have been Radio Stoke, I'm not sure but I think it He's on Radio One I think, I think just now. it was Radio Stoke he was on. He wa , he er, he was on ra , he was on was it Radio One or Radio Two? But, he was on he started on local radio. He's been a bouncer I think. Oh I don't know. build, cos he's a bouncer Do you find that entertaining? No. Ah well I, yeah I watch. I'll watch it, you know ju just, just watch it you know. Just . Like you say, it's just a laugh as well. I don't like him. Oh I dunno. It doesn't, it doesn't affect me like my dad says it should. Some people, it doesn't affect some people like. Like to laugh, me. Unemployment up again! There you are, you look. Yeah. So much for er Conservative's idea of bringing down er Have you watched the Addams Family? On there, But it I've turned it down. when it was on television as the Munsters Oh well, it's still like that. years ago and it's still on now, you get it on Sky, the Munster. Yeah, the new Munsters Yeah but the new and the old Munsters but the Addams Family's no different. No. It's just the same and I didn't find No. that entertaining. Really I I I just go out mainly, I'm not, not cos I don't , I just, I go out because there's nothing else to do and it's boring being stuck in on your own all the time! And talking to yourself. I find myself, talking to myself! Which is crazy anyway, so I'd rather go out and be crazy watching a film. Mum! Is G I D a word? G I D? Gid? Well that's, that's in What did you get that? Because I saw this there that's harpist is a word. You can have harp. And put No, it doesn't have an E on the end. Are you looking E there. No. No it doesn't, it's a musical instrument. I was watching erm Hawaii Five O yesterday. Hawaii Fi , the old Hawaii Five O. Steve McGarrat and er and what's his name, er something be Da Danna. Book him Danna! He couldn't say that this time cos he was i , he was erm, the guy in hospital. He's the one that, somebody tried to assassinate him or someone tried to kill him off . I must admit, er there are some good television programmes now, but they're a lot of rubbish in compared to the Yeah. story lines that you, you used to get on some of the Yeah. old series. Oh. It seems that they make so many now that they don't have the same Yeah. quality of That's it. er entertainment in them. Yeah. All we got now is adverts television is a Well the ads are a lot better sometimes than the programmes! Yeah. I used to watch erm tt, oh erm Hawaii Five O every Saturday or Friday. I mean, it used to be on a Friday, then it used to be on a Saturday, only sometimes like I used to watch it. I used to sit there Da da da da da good fun ! You know, it was a great laugh like! Now you just and sit there watch it now. I just thought I'd watch for the, you know I think it's on every erm it's on every da , ways you know Hawaii Five O is showing the old things again. I used to like the Invisible Man as well. He could vanish into thin air. Yes! I used to like that. Oh. I used to like it when he takes his head off! He'd take his bandages off. Oh I've been wa , well I've watched all of them, right, but they've made so many of those from er really old ones to the very new one. Oh. Mum. Is G, er G O D a word? G O D? Well it's God isn't it? But you can have it with a small letter. G. G. Yeah, God. No , I mean a J. J? O D. Jog? Yeah, to jog. No! J O E? No. No, you'd need to put a Y on the end, a joey, it's a sa baby kangaroo. I Keep getting those letter words. No, is zog a word? Z O G? So wha Is Z O G a word? Oh, Z O is. Z O? Yeah. I know, but I need this one. What have you put, Z O O, or just Z O? Z O. Well you could put another O on the end and make it zoo. Yeah, but it's got an E at the top of it. In there. Oh well you can't then. See he's trying to get me. See there's a word there, wax. And in fact, waxers, one who waxes or waxes. Yeah. I'm going here. Oh! I don't like seeing that. This is mine, this is the side I like. It's live at eight o'clock in the morning. Because the Europea er, well the European clock is an hour behind us Yeah. so it's actually nine o'clock and they start. 'kin hell! And Ni nine o'clock in their Yeah. like? Yeah. And it's been coming from Austria this week Yeah. and it's been er oh it's absolutely fantastic, I think! Yeah. But I wouldn't have the nerve to do what they're doing. 'kin hell! But the exhilaration of watching them come down. Yeah. And sometimes they've got one that comes on a test run with a camera strapped onto them and you come I bet that's nice! Oh! I mean they come at they come over a hundred miles an hour on some of these runs! I know, and I hate it when they go straight up over the hills like and they Mm! do a a somersault straight over and come back down. But I mean, look at the scenery Yeah. though! Yeah. I mean you see all these mountains and I mean it just looks that beautiful and Yeah, er clear. I mean, there's no smog a, and there's no cloud or smoke anywhere is there? Yeah. It's ice isn't it, ice underneath that snow innit? Well it'll be packed ice you know, with them coming down it so much. Yeah. I don't like tennis either. I love tennis. Do, who was it was on here yesterday, erm the one that throws temper tantrums? It's blinking ! Oh well all you've got to do it's in erm Can you pick what you want to? Yeah? No! I say whether you can go and then I've put it in there. Anthony got all the words and put them in and there's this one and he's got all the good . I'm getting to like this. So it picks it up when you just do anything? Yeah. It's got seven different audio channels and you pick up languages on them. Yeah? Three comes out in British. Typical! Pick all these Mm. Two hundred and fifty pound that was. 'kin hell! Expensive! You got a lot though. I wouldn't have bought it, but it was brought as a Christmas present Yeah. for the kids because there's a little man out there who's the only one in the family who didn't have it. I wouldn't buy it. And then I said well I will buy it as a joint sort of joint family Christmas present Yeah. because he went on so much and then it was bought for him. So But er I said it's nice, something like that though. Yeah. Harry and I like it for the the sports, like the Yeah. skiing, the round up of the sports. And you get some Yeah. entertaining unusual sports that come on, but also, there's a news programme on, twenty four hour news. They mix in Yeah. a sports round up every now and again, and then you get the American C B S news comes on. Oh. And you'll get world news. Yeah. But if you come on when it's the British news you tend to get a, a more in-depth programme, it lasts longer Yeah. you get more than just the highlights of the news. So, yeah. Who's that? No! Women don't like being huffed and puffed at! No, I, no I don't. I don't get huff , I don't. Shame they huff and puff at me, oh I don't like it! No. They, they don't like it when you stand and laugh and you know, joke with them and that. Joke about it and all that, they don't like it then. Is it er you know only little girls like I mean, crumbs! Yeah! I've got one. And when you talk sensibly to them and that you know, about ja , that and too old for you like that, something like that I, I get really erm you know, really erm when they erm they, they start to laugh but you're not quite funny and that. So all I do, you gotta jo , joke about it all that. Yeah. So it makes it erm in fact, it does upset them sometimes, you know, we, you know like the other way around they can't stand it when you you know, when you can er hate it like that. If you don't take it, you know, if you can't take the joke they give you, they just they get really upset about it. Oh. Ho . She's crazy! Driving me mad! Then she erm she told me a lie this time as well! I erm, did something to her friend like erm you know, this lad she's supposed to be going with, I dunno what she's doing with him or anything. And I'm not bothered if she's, cos she, he's er, she's he's, she's going out with him or anything. Just if she'll, you know, just if she could be friends with me still, you know, and that? But erm anyway, she told a lie to me this time. See she, she came around cos erm I've been up to her, her friends place to and give him a bit of a telling off like and that and erm she came to John's house and I said, why are calling? I said you only come round to see me cos, you know, cos I al I always wanted to come round and see you so and she won't. And she says, I haven't come round to see you actually! I've come round to see John. This is like her, ex-husband like. And I said okay. Well I'm just joking by saying you've come round to see me haven't you? And that, and sh , and she goes, no I've only come round to see John cos of his birthday you see. So er I thought a alright then, so I I went off like and I just heard erm and said, I went up to see her mother like and, I told her mother about it, like and that and erm her mother says different now, that she came round to see me at the time to tell, to give me a telling off like over her friend. So I mean, John was right, she did come to see me that time. And Ah! But she didn't want you to know about this. Yeah. And another thing, she didn't have to do well her mother's erm her mother-in-law seems a bit erm bad tempered with her, like, she's is that she didn't have to tell John, her ex-husband that there's anything the matter like and and, and that's when she she, all she wants to do is get him against me. She's trying to make me and him enemies. Cos me and him are good friends, like. He likes me and, and I like him, he's we've both got things in, in common, like. She's probably jealous then of your relationship with him. Might be, yeah. She could be. I dunno. I mean, if she had a marriage with him and she had the relationship and now you're a good friend to him, and you're a friend to her, she's probably very jealous of the fact that you're Mm. friends with her ex-husband. Yeah. Well, could be. I thought of that. I , things keep going through my head every time my head's like it got this little what do you call it in, one of those erm like a live wire, just keeps going up and down and all the time. I'm trying to work out why she's mad all the time, why she's she's down on everything. And I can't understand her, I can't keep up with her! You know? I mean, I mean, you know, John, you should see him he's happy! Every time I go to see him, like, he's happy as anything like. He's a good guy! Okay, he's a I think, then again, sometimes I think why she left him is because the way his, his house is, you see. Cos the way he has his house it's like er been a okay he's off er, I know it may sound nasty what I say about him, but he's alright, he's a good guy like, his house is a bit of a upside down place, like Mm. it's only cos he's had it done up and that. And erm her place is oh, it's just really lovely inside, everything! You know, really warm, the fire's on, everything and and nice and cosy and everything like. And, and I think is it that because she left him? I was trying to think of all these things like she's done like. I dunno, I'm just, I give up on her anyway! I haven't seen her for two weeks now. Trying to pack up seeing her now ! It's like er er but now I've heard her telling this lie again, I mean, oh, I'm thinking of going and seeing her again. Asking her what's she doing it for? Yeah, why , why. I dunno I can't understand it though! Mm. I mean, why didn't she tell me the truth, I can understand you know, I could, you know, I could perha if she'd just tell me the truth you know tell me why she's u , what she's up to and that. Why does she have to tell me lies like, I mean what's she trying to hide you know? It's like she's got some big thing going like, got some big drugs thing going, like, and she's trying to hide! Some big thing, you know. And there's nothing to it, I mean crumbs! Probably just her own Oh. personal problems that she she knows that if she loses her temper with you she won't really offend you. Perhaps Well that that's a good thing that you are a friend to her, that you'll take her tempers and you'll still come back. And the fact that she can lose her temper with you Mm. you, you are just at the end of the line, and you take it off her so you take the pressure off her. She probably thinks a lot more about you for being able to Yes. take that pressure from her. I know. I always feel, I always feel, what do you call it, for punishment though? You're masochist? Yeah, I'm maso Thank you ! I think she could be truthful. Keep going back for more and more. True. Yeah. And er Sound a bit more like you're Nightmare on Elm Street! True, yeah! Blinking,e every time I walk into that place. Nobody comes to see you! You know, once when I was in Wembley like, another thing that I've noticed that changed in our place at Wembley, like every time I used to go in there, all, well, when I used to be in there, like, all the lads would be in the office with her like talking to her, and laughing and smiling and and she used to be at the desk smiling and everything and now, when I walk in there now it's only me like on a Saturday, and it's only her like nobody else is in there with her, she's al , she always she's got, I think what's happened is she got too deep into her work that she's she just seems to take all her work now and that. Cos she doesn't have any relationships with the other Yeah. people that were there. Yeah. So erm and here's another thing as well, she says erm I said why don't you pack this job in like? And you know, you know, I feel li , I feel like she's she's a nice woman like, you know, I say, why don't you pack the job in? She says, I can't now I've gotta keep my family. And, and that, cos tha , cos she hasn't got her husband anymore, her husband's got a good job like, getting well into, something like and he's got, got loads of money! He's got really lovely car and everything, and and that, got nice house and and er anyway she's she says I can't. Says I've gotta keep my family now cos she's keeping her, er daughter in what do you call it, and her son like, every time he comes up. And and when she had er well like she says, I can't now. But I, I don't understand, now she can't but if she went back to her husband he's got money, I mean, he can look after her as Yeah, but well. going back to him just cos he's got money, if she doesn't love him any more and she can't live with him because of the relationship. Yeah. You can't compromise your feelings just because of the money. Yeah. But I mean it's not just that, she's killing herself for the job like! Sa , she her eyes are getting blacker every time and she she just seems to be in her books all the time, and everything now. I mean, she doesn't stop work, she never stops work! She goes on and on and on! Well when you're being paid for doing a job that's the price you pay if you want to keep in work. Well I wouldn't do that. I don't think I could do that. Well you'd have to i It'd kill me! If you've got responsibilities of a family and you've got to keep them, then, as a mother she knows she's got her children to look Yeah. after. She'll stay there even if she doesn't like it because she's got to provide for them. That's a responsibility you take on with a family. Yeah. Or even if she doesn't like, and as much as she says, well she doesn't like it she can't give it up until they're old enough not Yeah. to be a responsibility to her. Yeah, well I think it's through her job she's left her husband like. Her husband was the one who got her the job as well! And I mean, well she's married and everything, and kids. I could understand that in , I could understand that he's Yeah. probably left her because of the job in that sense He didn't leave because her, she she left him. well He le , I think he left but probably her because Yeah. she couldn't she just didn't smile every time like, she was it's like, I think it's something to do with, sounds like it's something to do with the parents maybe. Something like, you don't know, I just, I ge , all these things like, keep just coming into your head all Mind you, the relationships between the time. the man and a wife you'd never know what the problem was because the relationships that will be private to them. Yeah I know. Well I don't know But they'd let you well I know that. they'd never let you into that. I know. Well to that, I just Mm. I keep everything to myself. But it, it just seems funny, you know! The way she treats me, now. Cos I'm a bit like John, like happy, you know I'll laugh every time like and he'll have a joke and that and erm John's happy, and he'll laugh. And he's into heavy metal and and we, we both seem to have things in common like and she do doesn't like me and she doesn't erm you know, she seems the same with me as as she is with John. And this other guy she's going with now he doesn't smile, nothing! He, I I used to hi to him, like he used to work at Wembley as well and I used to go, obviously we were walking, coming out of the place like, and I'd say I'd go, hi there! And he'd go, and he'd just just walk on like! Ignore me! Mm. He wouldn't smile, nothing! No. Seems down all the time. They're probably both very happy in their misery together. Well I dunno. Could be. You know I wish I was, I could be happy in misery. Mm! Mm! You know. But I can't, me, I mean, I've gotta be happy cos a it's the only thing today, is happy. Yeah. Or die sad and I'd hate that! You know, I couldn't put up with that, I mean You're better off being happy. You're Yeah. happy on the outside it and you show you're happy on the outside you'll invariably be happy on the inside. And it's that where it counts. Yeah. And I I like being happy. I mean give him. Just take your pipe. Can we go a little bit into the background of the boys' ploughing match, Marcus? How did it originate? Do you know? How how did it all begin? Well there's been speculation about that, but no nobody can actually tell us how it began but it's it's easy enough to imagine how it began, I think. Because er if you look at little boys on farms today, they play with toy tractors and things don't they? And er they don't necessarily er er do things with these toy tractors er Well th they they tend to things with these toys to imitate the the real thing er so I th I think the same thing would have happened, maybe a hundred years ago or maybe less, in regard to ploughing with horses on the in the fields. And er they would maybe er devise or make or r find a piece of suitable wood or something to to scratch in the garden or in the sand or on a piece of nice soft soil, to make furrows and er imitate maybe what their Dad was doing out in the field and er they had no concept of doing anything else to play really, it was just pretending they were pretending they were grown up and working. And I I think that it it it would just grow out of that kind of activity and then eventually when ploughing matches er, as such, in the you know, in the adult farm, with horses, became the great thing er which was the second half of the last century, you know after the farming revolution. Er ploughmen and horsemen were the elite of farm workers and the sons would could only aspire to do what they did and And er eventually I suspect it got to be a little more organized and er they had these little games of of ploughing matches, maybe in a rudimentary farm to begin with, but it eventually came to be as we see it today, over a long period of time. Is it possible then that perhaps there were boys' ploughing matches on all the other islands as well, and the tradition has only survived in South Ronaldsay? Mm no it's er It was in Berry, it was in Berry. I've seen photographs of the ploughing match in Berry. Er pre-war. Er but in South Ronaldsay and Berry only, I'm pretty sure it wasn't anywhere else. it used to be at a different time of the year, though, didn't it? Well it fitted into the easter holidays, erm and in fact it followed the farming seasonal pattern. You see no nobody ploughs in the summer time, really, on a farm. You plough in the spring, you plough in the winter. And you get the seeds sown in the spring. So they er would have done the same thing in those days, the children, and erm it fitted in to the easter holiday time to have the actual ploughing match, you see? No in in your memory, of course, you've been involved in it for a long time, haven't you? Well off and on. I haven't been so much involved in it as perhaps some other people and I don't pretend to be an expert. But I I did take part in it when I was a a boy in school, and that's a that's a fair while ago, now right enough, but er er I used to attend the er Well a primary school, I went to the small Grimness school, in the north end of South Ronaldsay, which has now been closed for over twenty years. And er we had our own little ploughing match there you see? Maybe not more than half a dozen in in fact, I remember only four I think, the lat one I was at. Er on the sand at Grimness Now there's hardly any sand there then, you had difficulty finding a patch, not not like where you've the huge area now at the Barrier And so er I I I know that in the Hope they had a bigger one, and I believe in the Wyvell area they had one as well, you see? But I was never really involved in those ones at all. How much has it changed in the costume and the ploughs, nowadays compared to when you were young? Well it's become much more elaborate and sophisticated and er dare I say, expensive? You know to do, er in regard to the so called horses costumes. Er as I remember it it was pretty rudimentary and er you didn't keep a costume or a suit for the job. People couldn't really afford to that then. Er on the day of the event you went either your mother or somebody else's mother Usually the custom was that the the boy who was to be the horse would be decorated either by his own mother, say, or or perhaps the person who he was s s he Who he was partnering as as as ploughman, you know, horseman. With the ploughmen and er in my own case I remember going to the house where I was er I was to be the ploughman for this so called horseman you see? If you understand that. And had these things kind of pinned on,wore First World War army badges. I remember one with the R G A, the Orkney R G A, Royal Garrison Artillery, I remember that badge being pinned on and er bits of braid, you know, sown round the bottom of your of your trousers, short trousers. And it wasn't a lot, and then as soon as the event was over it was all smartly taken off, you know. What about the judging, is that really based on the the turnout or is there any ploughing skill involved in that as well? Th th the ploughing? Mhm. Oh very much a very much a very much a skilled job you know? You won't get a prize unless you're up to it, The er the ploughing has to look professional. It has to resemble the real thing as done in the fields. Even today tractor ploughing is You know, there's a pride in doing a good job and er while the the single furrow plough, the techniques are a little different, the the end result is much the same. What about the ploughs themselves, now, they of course are all handmade specially for the match , Mm. Mhm. were they always made by the local blacksmiths, or did somebody sometimes construct one, as you said at Out of wood or other material? Yes. The the blacksmiths made some and they were rather heavier and slightly different proportions, prewar after what they are today. Er they tend to be more sophisticated and slimmer and nice looking, but we have quite a few craftsmen around now, no blacksmiths as such, but even in the old days er you had rather cheaper versions made with wooden handles and just a nice piece of light Tinwooey bent over to form the board, the mould board and that. Erm now you're getting them much more er s ooh sophisticated you know? With nice hardwood and stainless steel boards and things er because people have access to these materials and you have chaps who are er good with their hands and can do it, make a plough for their son, that sort of thing. Have the rules changed over the years, for example have the age groups or allowing girls to take part or anything like that? Well the age group was always just school age which was up to fourteen. now of course it's up to sixteen or rather under sixteen. That is includes fifteen. they tend to drift away when they get to the last year anyway, you know? Er girls were never included as horses as I remember it, but nowadays there are of course, which means that you have more boys available to be ploughmen and this perhaps helps the numbers. The girls used to join in the in the party afterwards, you know? But no They didn't take part in the event really. And does it have to be young people resident in South Ronaldsay, or is it more of an open contest now? Oh it's always been confined to the Really it was to the school areas, you see? Er each school area. It wasn't run by the school as such, or anything, it just just kind of happened but the er I mean teachers or anybody like that was never involved in it. But it ran with each school area, you know, Berry, Grimness,Marketthorpe and so on,and now of course the total areas as one but I think perhaps it would be permissible to somebody with local parentage maybe not resident in the area. Don't see much of that happening actually. It's a very strong local tradition and I think it'll stay that way. So we have to hope for a fine day for this on Sunday, obviously. What happens if i it is a really bad day? Has it ever been, in your memory, postponed or cancelled, or do they just carry on regardless? I don't remember it being postponed. Although at easter time there is some shocking bad weather sometimes, you know really cold sleety showers and it's just a question of getting out there to the sand and get it over quickly. But in those days you didn't have many visitors at all. There weren't many people looking on. Now that it's become a summer time exercise it's er good for the tourist you know? And this helps to foster it because the tourist contribute well to the funds and this gets the children more prize money and so on. Lovely. Right, anything else you want to add on that Marcus,? So how did the event get the title of the festival of the horse? Well er to me it doesn't quite ring true, it's always been the boys' ploughing match and it always will be as far as I'm concerned but I think this happened at the time post war I can't say exactly which year, when the date was changed from easter time to August. This was partly to get better weather I think, for the competition, and also to attract tourists. And I think originally it may have run in the first year both at easter and at August. Erm and it was organized then as a tourist thing. And this title er the festival of the horse was, shall I say dreamed up, erm and in fact we had one or two horses, Clydesdale horses, on show down at the Crummery square in the Hope. Just to make it more of a horsy event. So that title to some extent still sticks with it, but it I can't hel I'm old fashioned enough to th to think of it as being a bit a bit false, you know? That's grand,love I couldn't put you right with that because I'm not sure then or no. I can't remember. They could have been mind you. But the only difference that I see was that they pushed their ploughs there, so they must have been smaller than the ones we use. But we had er horses Pair of horses, no or lasses or whatever. And that's what What year? I don't know how many years had There's a chap in the village, Jim , he might be remember, but he ran out of time too, to win the cup I think. You see I think he'd win it three year. It's just like the World Cup. Where did people get their ploughs from? Well the blacksmiths made two that I know of. And there's one hanging in the village that you'll see in a window. And me dad, he made three anyhow, course there'd be non of them to the for they were wood. They were just wooden Stalch you know, on end. A beam made the wheel and the counter as we called it on it and all. Wood is a good working thing. We'd a very good job. He was a good hand. In the sand you see the iron although it broke it more but this plough he'd kept the thing fairly together . I mean about the job, that's why I got fast you see? It was keeping the thing just like what you do in the land. in the ploughing matches you see the size and smooth, that's how they were and that was, what this wooden plough did. The sand i's solid, more solid than the earth you see? And it just you curled it up with a plough you see? Just lovely And was no broken again it was just standing kind of like,Really made a good job. It's was our wood plus the Bore had made. I don't know how many years it went on and then there were a lot of ploughs and boys a lot of their own ploughs I think. They couldn't afford to get a smithy made plough you see?pucky poor in that times you know?couldn't afford to get one made. But that certainly was in Stronsay, and that's the to prove it. An and that had stopped by World War Two would you say? Oh aye, aye,stopped before World War Two I think. I don't know why it stopped, they had to get out of it you see? More modernized you see? Er there were tractors now for Peedie boys,. As well as William I also spoke to Jim . in nineteen thirty and ninety thirty one I won the cup, I'd been twelve year old then. onto the sand here in Bay and then there seven site or plod laid off for every plougher that was there you see? And you had to plough that within a certain time. I think it was two hours for me I had to plough that one. And I was judged by the judges and Was there an upper age limit that you could compete? Yes, there was. Fourteen I think was the limit. How often did you manage to win it? twice. But you had to win it twice before it became your own property. So I won it twice. Er do you have the cup yet? Yes I do. It was just like, just like looking at any ordinary cup standing in the black ebony stand, and er lions head in each side with rings in it's mouth. And it's silver cup. Do you know how long the boys' ploughing matches went on for? When they stopped? in thirty six, somewhere thereabouts. Not ju exactly sure. And in the thirty five i think. What sort of plough did you use for the competition? Iron ploughs made by a blacksmith. I tell you why, because he we he won the smithy window across the road there. And what did you use for horses? Two boys. like a pair of horse,th they pulled the plough. I don't mind whether we used reins or not,th th they just Well I mean they knew what to do you see? In fact we had the two boys pulling we had th it just as near as possible to the proper thing. project. And they're collecting words. Right? Right. And they just want to hear people talking so just carry on with your meeting, take no notice of that. No you can use any words you like, they are unattributable Oh right. They're totally unattri er attributable. Nobody'll kno nobody will know erm who it is. Right. Or be able to associate who said what. Fine Tom yeah. We'll use some big ones now. Undubitably. To be sure to be sure sir. Right, where were we? . L H . . Er November automatic, should have gone up eight per cent automatic. End date? November. Er so that'll be first eleven ninety four, Yeah. check price increase applied. Yeah. Increase. All I have to do is go and see her and say I want to know see each one ticked. Cos remember you're headers, just the headers. Right. Got to check the end dates, list numbers Sure. To make sure that you know, they've got to understand we police it from that which means that you go over to Yeah. I think to be honest to you, the the have been given very little guidance, she doesn't understand what's supposed to happen Mm. and the importance of it. Mm. So it's just got in a bigger mess and a bigger mess to be honest with you. Yes and I've got the smelly straw now. Yeah that's right that's right. . . Well one of those Yeah, one of them's negotiated and the other one isn't. Three one four three six one. one three six one one eight. Yeah Is that it? Eight eight three eight two eight four. I've got one three nine That's right. That's okay then. That's okay. Er. Narrow aisle. Narrow aisle being done, I know that. I've seen a note for that. First of the first ninety four. Yeah. Would you know what they were? Er check price increase . Oh this is good of you . Saves me doing this . You see, I gave all this information on disk. She's had all this on disk Yeah. Cos I was brassed off cos I said . Erm now uplifted . there's a letter down here. It doesn't that price it just tells you. Look do you want to write on there and work that out. And then you can see what . Nineteen fifty one for the S S F two and a half. Yeah. Yeah. Eleven twenty nine for the seventeen stroke. Eleven twenty nine. And eleven O eight for the two stroke. So that they're the latest prices. Effective first of the first first of the first ninety five. Super. Okay. 's Engines. 's Engines. Oh I'm going there next week. That's right, just say it's the thirty one one ninety four. check Backwards and forwards like a yo-yo. Erm First of the second ninety four actually. Thirty first of the first, that's right, that's where it ends . Yes that's right. Okay. Yeah. So that's okay? Yeah. Brilliant.. . No in-date. No they were called something else actually erm . Let's have a look at the P L A. didn't have on this did we? No. I think we ought to remove that list. Which list. This list. Erm, they've only got one size, and S F T thirty with protector . That's right. Yeah. Nice profitable business . Pardon. Nice profitable business. It is yes, and we've erm So that should be a three O eight customer. Yeah it should. Outside of one size, we should only have one size on the net list. It's impo let's have a look at the account number . The price on the net list should be six pound eighty. That's for the S F T thirty. Price six pounds eighty, latest. Check price increase done. Change and date it to when? Maybe er Thirty one twelve Thirty one twelve nine four yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah. I didn't have that on this list did I? No. .. Four five six sorry four six five four six five six eight one hundred. six eight one hundred. er two two Two two, double one double one three one three one O one. O one. Okay. Travel. Mm. Take forty P out of that. Er T L A customer, well yes yeah I think we should delete all ne dene delete the net list, remove er list and end date. Right that's okay.. Ah right. we've erm we've done that. Is that all we've got on erm Yeah we're onto the next area Right. Do you want me to just go through any others? The other thing you've got is the fact that P O A customers will be on here, and therefore those P O As should be on here. Right? Right. Plus these are over your horizon or the end of February. Oh right, okay. Yeah? Yeah gotcha. Erm , we've got we're in a situation with where we've just put eight per cent. We haven't affected their order book, but all future orders we've affected by eight per cent. So this should be by eight per cent. It should be updated by but not applied to the order book, do you follow me. Yeah, sure. Check price increase of eight per cent for new business. Not order book. That's one one ninety four. Er end date, should be one ninety four. So it'll be thirty one twelve ninety four. Yeah. Yeah. Well if you'd like to keep it at that, that's fine. Yeah cos that then that then ends on that date and you negotiate for That's right, yeah. And that's . . I'd say that's the same thing myself. Yeah.. this price. No sorry no it isn't. N one oh one three. N one oh one three, N B C three. N B,. So four five seven six three one O one. That's alright, that's no problem. It's er It's picking up onto the same list is it? Yeah. End date it's picking up off the same list. End date, thirty first, of twelfth nine . Link list,O nine O to I O eight three. Good thinking. . . Er that was automatic ninety th er November ninety three but we've had a problem with them so we're negotiating . So that wants to be They've actually resisted. thirty one ten ninety three. Er end date. I'm just bringing you up to date really, they've actually er resisted quite violently towards the reacted quite violently towards the erm price increase and er we've erm just sent them back, Peter's just writing a letter so there'll be a letter coming in So you see, that needs to go in there so that when it prints it out again, we come and ask you Yeah. what's happening. And when you update it er which updates the whatever percentage it is, then we change the end date so that it is Right, fine. Otherwise I'm getting paid . No no that's right okay. I understand. That's how it should that that's how it should work yeah, I agree. . we've got this P O A actually. Ah remove net list, P O A customer. I heard they were in trouble. Have you? I no sorry.. Be the sa it's the all part of the same. Well precision for a while because Yeah. of the redundancy situation. Oh. be a bit careful with that. Engineering. Oh that's site contractor. So the end date? It should follow it's list, and erm it it's one one ninety four. That's right then. Yeah. So that's alright then? I don't think you'll find it. I don't think we'll find anything should be the same, one one ninety four . One one ninety four. Yes. One one ninety four. One one ninety four. Yeah. 's all the same. Engineering. ? Erm that's fifteenth of the second ninety four for some reason. I don't know why. Deferred. But we've got we do very little business with them, it's really an account. Well we should actually we should That wants linking to erm 's account. Can't at the moment no. But I mean, our business with them is two hundred and nineteen pound. Why we're worrying about them I don't know. They probably negotiate the list at the same time as . No I don't think we do. I don't think we do. Yeah. Okay, if we do it to the fourteenth of the second ninety four, er and then that'd come up, I can tell you what we cos Peter's just is halfway through it with Well I say halfway through it. Hopefully he's halfway through it with erm erm so that should come up. Okay? Okay. . No end date. it's two four O two four five O five or two seven. remove Yeah oh it's quite a big value. . Well let's not remove it, let's go let's erm put it November ninety three Okay. November ninety four sorry, automate so it goes automatic. date to November ninety four. Yeah. So thirty one ten ninety four. Okay. no end date. P O A. Remove from net ? No. Because then you get you get this which is . Right and we'll be able to dummy this one will we? . Okay. And you can clear this up? Sure. I know . Carry on carry on. Lead on Macduff. Carry on regardless. . Yes,. I've put all the together under Peter 's responsibility. Because he deals with on the Ah right. and since are a big potential one one ninety four I've got down here. Yeah, it's only one . Yeah. Yeah. And er So it's still outstanding presumably? Er I think it is, yes. Do you want me to ch check for you? It's just that if there has been a price increase, then the end date wants changing as well... There's a letter in with that one.. Right so we haven't had a price increase? No. No we have we haven' we're halfway through it with working out . . All the same, they should all be the same. And the end date wants to be in as? I don't think we can treat them individually. Right. You know, I think we should tie em all up with the same Thirty one well ninety th ninety it says ninety three . Hang on, this account number. End date thirty one twelve ninety three. It looks like they're all linked in Yeah. Thirty three, thirty four They should all be the same,let's put them together anyway, even if they're not, we should put them together because erm I mean they're all part of the same company anyway. We can't tre we shouldn't treat them individually. We should treat them . Right,. people. One four ninety four. End date thirty one O three ninety four. That'll stop this one coming up . Engineering. yeah, 's a subcontractor. So one one one ninet Thirty one twelve Yeah. . That's okay. .list price. ? P O A I've got down here. So Somebody's Remove No no I don't think we should do that. We could actually remove the net list right, but I think we should have a net list for . Yeah but I don't think it's been updated for so long. Mm. At the moment erm Shane I've got a new enquiry in the system for a whole works, right, Yeah. What I'd like to do is reprice that and put that in as the net list. Right. Do you follow me, for the spares. Yeah yeah. But we need to put an end date on that. Erm oh I see, yeah. Otherwise it's gonna keep up. Yeah. Erm well we can change this end date can't we? Yes, if we put end date in as thirty one, twelve ninety three. Yeah. That's right. So that keeps popping up, and then we get it right. When we've got it right, we can put it to . . one one ninety four. end date thirty one twelve ninety three.. , Engineering,.. . Er one one ninety four. End date thirty twelve ninety three.. One two ninety four. end date thirty one, one ninety four. Er Engineering. November automatic. November ninety three. So check price increase done. Enter . Enter end date er thirty one ten ninety four. Next one Er automatic, November ninety three. Check price increase done. enter end date what date was it again? November ninety three. Thirty one ten ninety four. Yeah. Cancel. Take it out. Remove net list P O A customer. Don't wan don't even want it this far. Okay well we'll do that later. Okay okay. , yeah, we're in the middle of that. It's one one ninety four. So that's okay. So do a lot of work on that. . Er one one ninety four negotiate. So one one ninety four, enter annual date thirty one twelve ninety three. Engineering. Engineering, November automatic. Enter end date, thirty one twelve, automatic? So these should have had price increases. Yeah. Check price increase. Thirty one twelve ninety four. increased . That should've been automatic,ni November ninety three. ninety three,. done, thirty one ten ninety four. that's automatic. Ninety three. November ninety three. .Think of the money we're giving away by missing these. They might have been done, it's just that we don't know. No I know. That makes it even worse. . Er one one ninety four. Really for our business, it's worth messing around now. Erm that's business, I think if you just put er eight per cent on that, just p whatever, if we've got a net list, put it out the way. Ninety three, check price increase eight per cent done thirty one twelve ninety four. one six three three O three That looks a reference. M C three. I think that's ceramic coated bearings isn't it? Really. Bit of a failure weren't they? Well so we should certainly put them up by eight per cent. Er . , automatic, November ninety three. Check price increase thirty one ten ninety four. If not thirty one ten ninety three.. That's automatic again. Industries. , yes we've I've just just done those. We're on to the next area now aren't we? , one one ninety four. Erm but I've been this is I've been progressively pricing this account. Right. We've had erm on those two two two price increases on the O eighty eight which is the volume size, Yes. and we've just had another one on the B A C O ninet O nine O. Yes that's why I've the increase of twelve and a half per cent on it. Right. So you can see that er that price seventy six of those, that price goes up to two hundred and something pound which is . thirty one twelve ninety three was that? Ninety three yeah. Ninety three if price increase not done. should say, C J B G . Yes, thirty twelve ninety four. C J B G letter. Yeah I think you will yeah. Don't you? I bloody hope so. Cos I'm not doing this every year. No but we shouldn't need to. No. We shouldn't need to. Volumes is not until er later on in the year. Third of April. That's it yeah, first of the fourth ninety four. that sounds okay. Yeah. Whoops.. Yeah. thanks a lot bruv is erm quite a circus cos they we've got two accounts, we've got and the original equipment manufacturers. Yeah. And er it's a real game of soldiers, last time I had them up here and er oh it was quite fun really. That's nice. Yes it's good, yeah. Well last year I've improved the margin on that something something wicked. Cos er we went through it last year and I all the sizes that we only supplied, I just put them up Mm. and er if they were if they weren't making a reasonable amount you know,eight and a half per cent, ten and a half on some of them. Right. And on the ones cos they were trying to s screw us down to the floor and on the popular metric where they I knew they were gonna they could find better suppliers, I was only about two per cent on some of those. You know, one and a half per cent. And I said to them, Look I've re-costed all this, this is your new price sorted, and he said, we can't see what price increase we made. And I said, well, you know, overall it's gonna be what we said, you know I said, we I've tried to meet your targets, I said, but I've had to to increase some up fart higher than others you know. . Got away with it. Bloody Hell. They believed me. Oh dear. Er . Oh automatic that should be, eight per cent automatic. Check price increase done eight per cent. If yes, enter end date of which date? November ninety three. Thirty one ten ninety four. Yeah. . Yeah. Don't have to do it done that one. Dear oh dear. Limited. That should be automatic, November ninety three. sorry about this. That's alright. date ninety four. ninety three. Wonderful.. ? . Er automatic Quick. manager of . So this hopefully . Yeah. Right then. Limited. Oh dear of dear. I don't think I've done any business really I think I've just written that account off. So P O A customer. P O A . list. What we could do actually is with a we could have a I think I've just dumped it to the . We really ought to have these n these P O A customers with their pl with with their blind lists on the computer. Yeah. And we could factor em up. Yeah. So if you decide you want to some er eight per cent That's right. Yeah. Right, Instruments. Well I think do something like that. They do something very similar to that. Mm. They have this blind list Er sorry er Instruments Limited. Automatic November ninety three. Check price increase done Is this print picking up people who haven't had a price increase then? It's picking up people who don't have end date. Oh right. It gives us an opportunity to say, if the end date's not been done, has the price increase been done? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah,with an end date have actually been done. No because if the end date is . If you have a look at the end date,price. Price. End date, thirty one ten ninety four. Is that November? Yes. Yeah. No. No not end date thirty one ten ninety three.. P O A customer. Let's write him off. Got to be yeah. P O A . Seven two O four E T A. Yeah, they use that Yeah that's right. Yeah, you know all about that don't you. Yeah cos you were in precision.. . No. . Er . I don't know anything about that. Engineering. , November ninety three, automatic. Eight per cent thirty one ten ninety four . item. Automatic . check price increase worried about this one. I put that price up more than the standard, that's wrong. This is one where I put the price up and then we went and wrote to him with a net price list showing a lower price than I'd put up and we had to reduce it. So it's got to put up it's gotta be put up eight per cent, I can tell you that. Yeah. Yeah. Yes, thirty one twelve ninety three. I'm annoyed about that. You know we negotiated one price,didn't get . And then we we're sending them the net list and saying there's your new le er price Sending them the net list and he said, this is lower than what you'd said it was gonna be. You know. Took the legs from under us didn't he. That's terrible.. . do the next page. Automatic . . Er . Right,, P O A. P O A by the way, another thing I'm thinking of doing is saying, if you want a net price enter in there, it has to come through a manager or Yeah. Good idea. And er we'll have a a summary of what have got net lists and what haven't. And then you say whether yes or no. You have to sign it off . Yeah. . Oh this one. We had some fun with it Yeah we just done this one. Oh we're on fourteen, area fourteen. Yeah . One one ninety four it should be. Yeah. That's right okay. Erm and then we've just done a letter to them with the new prices. So that's okay. Well We haven't done it yet have we. Well I don't know whether you . We've done a combined jobby here erm We've done er . here they are. The prices should be . According to that dated the ninth of December. Oh no that's wrong then. Check price increase done. Letter ninth of December. nine twelve ninety three, if yes,ninety four, if not,. Yeah. this is P O A I think. Isn't it? No it's got a an end date Oh it has got one one ninety four, yes you're right. Yeah. Yes. That should be er negotiate, one one ninety four. Yeah. . I think we've put I know we've put erm eight per cent on on everything that's now outstanding so it should all go up eight per cent. Check price increase done eight per cent on new business, yeah? Yes one twelve ninety four. If not,ninety three.. Oh we c they cancelled them. Oh is that what it is? I think so, yeah. Ah. I assume so. Yeah there's no there's no cost ass No cost. So if it w it was after the receipt then it would be Be It would be a negative margin wouldn't it. Yeah. The profit would have been minus cos the costs would still be there so it must be a cancellation. Mustn't it? That one is the same size isn't it? Yes. That's a C three fifths, the C M Yeah. And then no that's not the same. No. I dunno what's happened there.. That's a shame . Limited. er that should have gone up eight per cent. Check price increase I don't think that has gone up. I'm pretty sure that hasn't . eight per cent. If yes Ah yeah that's why because because our business was smaller but business was big. With our size we could just put up by eight per cent. If yes it would be what date, thirty one twelve? Well it's it's That's right yeah. getting frustrated. in a very matter fact way. He writes it all down, he sends it all in and expects the system to handle it.. Mm. Yeah but sh he should I mean on the road, you should be able to just write in and say, I want this to happen. That's right. Yeah. But it doesn't. Yeah . It doesn't happen on the pricing, that's for sure.. that's under review at the moment. Just cos Carry on. Just cos we can hear you when you're in here. It's got nothing to do with that Roger. Nice one Tom. Touché. Just tal talk into don't talk Just talk away. There you are you see, and you thought we were joking . Get on get on with your business. Yes. Right, what I've come round here for er I'm going to Israel in a month. Oh right. Right. . Yes that's right. I wanted to talk to you about the things that er you've got from the meetings and to just think about the pricing issues. Erm and what you might say . Yeah. Alright, well when you've finished here perhaps we can touch base. Touch ba that's a good one, touch base. signing out. I don't know. Yeah, erm I don't think we increased this. Erm we quote once a year for it really er Shane this is one that Mm. comes out for tender. Right. And it should really it's I think we should put November automatic on that. Thirty one, ten ninety Three. three. Yeah and check that we've had an increase. Check price increase. Yeah. I don't know whether it's been done or not. I really couldn't tell you. Eight per cent. Check done. Right that's okay.? that's not mine. That's okay I can can I That's n yeah that's well that's erm that's now erm erm . So you ought to That's my boy. Yeah, you ought to get the dates in that for that. Again that's in as well. Right.. Yeah that's in as well. These are national accounts aren't they. Yeah, well that's in isn't it. That's That's not a national account. No That's . An area nine twenty? Oh I know why administrative receiver. Administrative receiver. Oh right. was administrative receiver and then it went over to Limited. Oh right. So you need to check with on that one just to make sure that area code's right. Ok. Fine. Right. with me. That's it thank you, I've now been through the lot. Smashing. Now I need to talk to er . Right erm And make sure that she can Yeah. go through all that. if I leave this here through, I can tell her what she want what i want her to do. That's it, and then erm then we take it to the next stage. Yeah, well the next stage is as I say to one of the priorities is to get on with the price increases and get them done, right, you know. The administration, even if it goes wrong, we can catch up with them later. No cos that's the mistake we made . Well alright. That's the state the mistake we made before. Yeah. Well the I mean the we won't leave it too late will we? I mean, there's a few that's been done that haven't been caught anyway. Isn't there? you know there's a few we've increased. Well that's what I mean. Yeah we want em caught up now. Precisely, if we leave it too late then . That's right I agree. . Yeah, I meant from me, I'm not I'm not doing any more and I'm not I mean, I'm just keeping this log Yeah. to administer the price increases. I'm not going to do that any more Shane. You're not? No. Only in as much as where we are. I'm gonna continue with that Yeah. But I'm not gonna c I'm not gonna administer if they're been done or not and double check every model. Oh no. No that's right. That's what this . Yeah. That's why she Agreed. Yeah and I'm not saying that you know, this is yours get on with it. No no no. No I understand that. No. If you like, I've been doing a job which I shouldn't be doing. Yeah. Right, it shouldn't be my responsibility to do that it should it should be accepted that it's gonna be done. It should be done. Any decent run organization, it would be done. Yeah. go through the P O A customers. Right. Sorry I thought we'd finished but we haven't. Aha. Er Precision Engineering, P O A . Yeah. Yeah. . Don't know much about them, yes go on. Well if you don't recognize them. P O A. Yeah. . Yeah go on. . They're either dead or No that's November ninety three so that's No that's a that's a that's it's only one size but we should have that recorded as a Well you see, that's the point. Oh right. Okay yeah, sure. Engineering. got it yeah. P O A cust P O A customer yeah. That's Oh sorry Yeah yeah. Medical/ Yeah. Yeah they're they're dead. Dead.. Yeah okay.. . yes, all rollers yeah. . Cancel. Cancel. you can't leave it it's dead, it just sits there.. Yeah. . Yeah. . One size isn't it. Cancel they're dead. Yeah. . Don't know anything about it. It's automotive isn't it. Yeah. . forget that. That's that was some stuff you see. Yeah sure. And then and I think they've they're a subcontractor that's died. . Yeah. Got to be in Coventry isn't it? Don't know what they . . ? . Yeah. it's . That's erm yeah. Yeah it's automatic No it's no it's not beginning to recognize these things. Yeah but it's a long story behind that. Yeah that's definitely . . did you? Yeah.. Yeah that's P O A. . yes, definitely a P O A. . Mm That's dead. That's dead yeah, it's now erm . . Don't know anything about that. Not worth worrying about. dead. No it's not,i that's just the history man. Alright, okay . . Dead. , P O A customer? Yeah, well we don't so a lot of business with them, it's more distribution than anybody else actually. Yeah. I was going to say to you, you know erm engine of Peterborough, Yeah? do you supply them direct? No. I don't think it's one of our accounts. I don't think we trade we don't trade with them. No it's the only business I think we get out there is from and that's automotive. I'd have thought had Oh mind you, have got a contract on bearing for for for . Have they? Yeah.. Oh right. I don't know I don't know I don't know anything about it. Yeah. the O E side. . No. used to do er he used to make sure he got precision when he wanted it. Oh right. Yeah... Yeah fine that's It's really to make sure that there's nobody on here that should be on there . yeah. That's all, to make sure there's nobody on here that should be on there.. Yeah that's all right that is. . Yeah that's okay, leave them on P O A. . When do these prices go up? They don't. They don't? No they don't I mean, the whole point is with P O A is what's wh what we're doing is sorting out should the customer be on P O A or should be on net list. If he's on P O A and he should be on net list, we need to change it, if he's on . Right. Once we've done that we can then start examining the list to see what's on the list. Yeah. And on the P O A. On some of these P O A's if there's a big potential, I'd like to have a dummy net list. Yeah, that's what I want. So we'll be saying, look these are the core sizes, Yeah. but anything out of that, we don't want to know Right. these are the prices we quote. Right. Do you follow me? Yeah, I mean I I don't know what what but that's obviously by the look of it. Yeah. That's the sort of thing you're interested in isn't it? Not not two of this No that's right yeah. That's so what. Engineering. Engineering. Yeah that's P O A. . yeah the same. . I thought we had a net list for them. But er go on leave them on there leave them on there Ooh are you sure? leave them on there. Go on. Well I suppose you what the thing is we Leave them on there . Yeah. Yeah I think so. Er Linear account that. Yeah well leave that leave that alone that's alright. But it should really we should quote volumes for that and they do volumes business. Right. But they always go market and they go against stipulation and buy when they want to. They they supposed. They're not, no.. Yeah I know. But erm they do. Mind you I want to try and get them to take . That's different. Yeah. That's made in the U K. That's right yeah. . Power Tools. it's all bloody walls isn't it. Yeah.. Isn't it . It is no it's part of Group but it's power tools down in . Oh right. Hydraulics. . . Yeah. yeah forget about that. . International. That rings a bell, that's the same account actually. . That's de that's cancelled. . , yeah leave that on. Yeah . Engineering. . What's the next thing? . Yeah that's alright. . I don't know what that's Yeah. . Fine yeah that's that's . Is it? No no no C F C. No no . They don't come back. tell you about it . They don't come back. They don't come back. They go They don't come back . Bang. Bang. Weapons isn't it. . Yeah. . Yes. ? Yeah . Yeah. . business . Oh yeah, special bearings yeah, leave that. . yeah. Yeah. . yeah leave it on. Leave it on. .. . . I mean I can't take them off I can't cancel them off . No okay. Oh well if they we can't cancel them off, that's alright. . . . Don't know anything about them. . , that's alright. . Er yeah, that's okay,. The . yeah. You can le you can't take it off so leave it there. I don't think we'll ever trade with them again. Yeah. No.. . That's the sort of thing we should have isn't it. Yeah. Yeah. We've gotta do a new record card you know for the . And when they're all filled in we shall in here. Well what would it tell you? It'll tell trading an account, contacts there, percentage of business goes where. How are you gonna get that? salesman's gonna do that over a period of time. .I don't know. They buy six X R J T four three forties. Oh do they? It ain't worth worrying about to be honest mate. Course it ain't. . . That's a bit special bearings special bearings job . Company. Yeah, that's gonna be a good one. Yeah. I want that put on a net list. Whoo. Yeah. Change To to net net list. that one size. Alright. End date, one one nine what do you want? You want thirty first of the twelfth ninety four. That's it. well we've got one. Got one. . . . . Oh bollocks to that. P O A. Is that a new word? . . Oh. Oh that wants to be a net list. Yeah does it? Yeah. Russell Oh it's Russell it's alright. It's okay. It's alright. You got list. O twenty two. That's right. I don't want to do that then do I. Hey that's interesting that's interesting. You've finished with me . Yeah we do want a net list for that . should have done that by now. Machines. Interesting. Machine Tools, Yeah this is all Russell's. It's all Russell's. Alright yeah thank you very much . Okay. very much obliged some more er . Right thanks a lot Shane that's lovely. Welcome back. There are more than twenty circuses currently touring Britain, most of them without an elephant or a tiger in sight. Times have changed, and animal activists have been well, active. But our next guests are big believers in the big top circus animal, they haven't got any big cats, just domestic cats, have a look at these. Did you believe that, Thomas is part of an eight cat routine at Circus International at , it's been at Sutton Coldfield, it's at Northfield over the weekend, but these are just domestic cats, ordinary domestic cats. Quite quite extraordinary. But they're doing this and they seem to be doing it quite unstressed. We talk about the stress in just a few minutes. It seems to be reasonably unstressed, we should be able to take a look at something else, now let's go over there again. What have you got for us now? Well you can forget the astonishment that cats can do it all, it is extraordinary that cats can do that at all. Let's put that aside and go to you Beth . Should cats be doing it at all, should any animal be made to do those sort of tricks? Well we don't believe that any animals should be made to perform these kind of silly tricks purely for the purposes of human entertainment. I don't think it's silly. They simply don't have the right to do that. And also what we're seeing tonight is the the end product of a long process of training. What we don't to see what we don't get to see is the training beforehand. And obviously anybody's who's trained a domestic animal I'll be getting across to you in just a second, just give us a second and I'll be right over there mate. Is it not just harmless fun? Not at all. It's not harmless fun. People are are seeing animals as objects of entertainment, objects of amusement, we should not be allowing circuses to present animals in this way to our society and particularly to children. We shouldn't be allowed to present animals in this way. Well that's er that's rubbish because they're br er the circus was born in Great Britain in seventeen sixty eight by a captain in the army . But that was before television , people hadn't seen animals. They got telly now. Yes but what you saw er in that clip just now, erm wouldn't have been done by cruel methods, I can assure you of that. Having inspected menageries in circuses for the tes for the pa past ten years, I have seen no cruelty to any circus animal in that time, and that speaks for itself . Thanks a lot, I'm going to go to you Diane. Now cats are pretty independent creatures. And if there's a problem, a cat won't react. I've got a couple of Siamese moggies, I know what they're like. If they don't want to do it, they'll just say, you , in cat language of course. Tell me. If the cats weren't trained to do that I would assume that they would walk past the hoop of fire and they would under the ropes. Naturally a cat would not do an act like that. The cat has been made to do it. It is not a natural phenomenon and what worries me is we are miseducating children. I would hate to think that some children at home now are going to try and make their pet cat jump through a hoop of fire. Rubbish. Well I s , sorry let's go to that, what was your point? Children aren't that stupid if you're implying that my son would do that. How're how're the kids gonna get the fire, you have, your children have boxes of matches and lighters do they, and cans of petrol and whatever else ? Well to be to be honest to be honest er I haven't got children. I'm not surprised. Oh here we go, it's started, it's started. these are my children, I wouldn't harm them for the world. Gavin, you adopted and trained the, let's get back to the point. You adopted and trained the cats Gavin. Do they really enjoy this? Well I think so, if they didn't want to do it, they wouldn't do it. But how do you, how do you know I ask them to do it. How do you know they're enjoying it ? I say come here like a dog, you say come here and they come here no choice and they do it. What do you mean they've no choice? I mean we're not just this with cats, Hang on. Diane, what is so wrong with training a cat? I don't agree with training any animal to m to do to use any animal for entertainment, any animal for use for entertainment like in the circus. This particular circus, besides having the cats, has got parrots, it's got erm young African elephants, I've been to watch Which which was saved Pat, let's forget the little cats, let's turn to the big cats, let's turn to the lions and tigers. Let's turn to the elephants, the seals. Isn't that what a circus is really about? Of course it is . No we're talking about here, we're talking about Victorian entertainment. Let's take the point about the elephants. These are not the s great saviours of the wild. Of course we are. These people have crem created oh no you're not, these people claim to save elephants, they're not. They're taking baby elephants from a cull. Can you imagine the trauma of those baby elephants? They've watched their parents being shot, many ha many ha Because have killed the elephants Excuse me, can I finish, er many of them are chained to the parent's legs while they're collected for these people then to bring to a circus, traumatized and chained to the ground for life. If these people wanted to d if these people wanted to c and they really cared about conservation and education they'd do what the care for the wild have done. Leave them there to be culled ? They would save elephants, Let Dave respond, Dave respond and stop this Let Dave respond Have you seen our circus, have you seen our circus? I have. You have. I have. I was actually er answering your friend's comments there, but he spoke over you so I wanted to answer him back . Oh that's okay. I do have to pay into circuses unfortunately erm because I go in as a member of the public to watch the act, and when I can, I pay the money to go Did you did you Excuse me can I finish? When I go I usually pay er to go round the back er which in some circuses you can do and only two weeks ago It's free in our circus, free in our circus only two weeks ago, I actually saw er elephants chained up by their legs, in a marquee at a British circus. That wasn't in our circus. This is totally wrong, it's a totally wrong way of using animals, animals are just used in circuses for entertainment, for profit, Just hold tight a minute, because I want to go up here and talk to the customers. Now here's a couple of customers, you were at the circus, first of all how did you feel about the circus that you saw? It was brilliant, it was absolutely brilliant. Lots acts and things, yeah. And what did you feel about it? I thought it was really good. No no cruelty in it at all. Did you feel sorry for the animals at all? Did did you feel that there was some cruelty going on? No. The children aren't really qualified to notice cruelty though are they? What did you find was the most interesting part of the circus? For you, the most enjoyable for you? There was a a knife throwing act,not really a knife throwing act human acts. It's like erm . Okay, what about you what was your favourite part? The acrobats . You liked the acrobats? Okay we got some more young people over here and we're gonna talk to them as well. Where are you? There you are. What was your favourite part of the circus? You, what was your fa you were at the circus weren't you? Yeah. What was your favourite part? Erm I like it when the cats erm was balancing on the rope. You liked the cat on the rope? And what about you what did you like? I liked the same. You liked the cat on the rope? And this lovely lady in front, Clare what about you, what did you like best? I liked Here you use my little microphone, what did you like best? I liked the bit every week I have fight people off my microphone. Come on Clare. I liked the bit where the cat jumped through the fire. You liked the cat through the fire. Okay, that's what the youngsters have to s ,pardon me, that's what the youngsters have to say, Dave are the animals, let's pick from Diane now, are the animals little more than prisoners? They haven't got much choice, they're with you, they live with you, you feed 'em, they gotta work for you. No that's wrong. No. And saying it saying that way, we love animals as circus people. You say it's money. It's not money to us, it's a way of life. Circuses have been going for two hundred years. If you'd come down today or any fine day, our elephants are grazing, roaming around, our horses are That's right. let out, this morning at eight thirty Roaming around how big a space? There's about there's about eight acres at the moment. Yeah, well in the wild they would be roaming around considerably more than eight acres. In the wild they would have been culled. Not necessarily. Are your animals happy? Our animals are very very happy. Do come in, do come in. With that cat going through the flame. It had all the stress indicators,i enlarged pupils, fluffed tail, I saw, I saw That act was punishment centred It's stress, oh my god , and given token food at the end of the act, but believe me, all circus training involves a lot of cruelty, especially with elephants, because they're so Excuse me I don't involve cruelty in my training Have you been cruel? No I will not be cruel, you cannot be cruel with them. You really can't. You need to be prosecuted under the nineteen eleven act, because you hung a cat from a a star, I hung a cat? far above the ground Is that cruel? The cat was placed on a platform which went Have another have a another look. I had someone come to see me the other week from the R S P C A because they said this cat was held forty foot in the air Look at this, this disgusting, you should be prosecuted for this. and swung round for . Let me get up to our animal behaviourist here. swing it round Now you were were sponsored to travel around and er by your tail. look at circuses for about eighteen months. What were your findings? I found that most of the animals in the circuses were looked after with a great deal of care and attention. There are improvements that can be made but that's to be said for all animal husbandry systems, from pets, to guide dogs for the blind, and every other every other type of system. As far as the training goes, it's extremely difficult to train particularly big pa cats, unless you're going to use positive reinforcement, a r , in other words a r reward. If you use punishment you are likely to get eaten, so there's fairly strict quick er selection for appropriate behaviour. As far as these cats were concerned, I have little doubt that nothing but positive r reinforcement would have been given because if they had been punished they simply wouldn't have done it, and they would have run away and it's very much more difficult as a as a performer to have an animal w isn't going to want to do the act. So what you do as a trainer in a circus you try and encourage the animal to want to the act and to reinforce it for so doing and that may be food, it may be actually just affection for the people who are training and that's what a trainer wants to try and . So the animals weren't treated er roughly according to our animal behaviourist here. Well I'm an animal psychologist too, and believe me you don't control a four ton animal like an elephant just by giving it titbits. I it it is managed with and the initial process of domesticating and training elephants is very cruel indeed. We're robbing them from the wild, and including Africa with all this nonsense about saving them from culls, it's it's Let me, let me ask this lady here to come in, up there on the aisle, third row. Yes I'm a veterinary surgeon so I think I'm fairly qualified. You're a vet? I'm a vet Yes. So I think I'm fairly qualified to talk about stress and anxiety in cats. I've seen these cats as well and they are stressed, they're showing very classic signs of stress. Fire is all animals' natural enemy, no animal is gonna go through fire of its own volition, erm and again the point, just moving away from the cats, which I'd agree, the cat was hanging on to that platform, looking very stressed, signs of its tail, course it's not gonna jump. Okay cats tend to land on their feet but they also tend to take injuries like erm severe pancreatic injuries if they land from high things, so they don't just So as a vet you believe there was severe stress? Yes, severe stress, they were showing, sorry? Have you done any work in circus as a vet? I don't need to to recognize domestic cats being stressed, do I? Let me ask you Rusty, Rusty the clown, now Rusty as a clo , Oi, can let me do the show, please. Er maybe next week. Rusty. Yes. You're a clown, you're the love figure in the circus, kids love you, people come to you, you're the affectionate, you're the warm. That's right. You see the animals on, you see the animals off. Do you ever see mistreatment? I'm serious with you. I can say a hundred per cent, I've never seen any mistreatment. I've got two children in the circus, I've got one five year old that's at the age now where yo he's he's watching everything and learning everything. If I saw any cruelty in this business, I'd leave the business because I wouldn't like my son to be brought up in an environment where there was cruelty to animals. Can I just say that if you leave the transportation of the animals aside and the training of the animals aside, I don't think we have a right to use animals in this way. But this man here is obviously going to say he's seen no cruelty, he h obviously hasn't seen the circus madness video that w was released by I A W A and Animals Defenders this year, where there is an absolutely horrendous scene of a llama being beaten around the head and chest. A llama. And it was a British circus . You have llamas in your circus Mr John ? That's right. You have llamas in your circus, what do you ask your llamas to do sir? They do a very similar routine to a liberty pony. The sort of things they do in the wild, running, jumping, pirouetting, I'd just like to say that's not, that's not er actually my circus on that particular video and we haven't identified which circus it was on that particular one. My general point is that we're talking about er freedom for anybody to go if they want, these people are trying to stop the freedom of the paying public . into your region. I don't ever come into this Birmingham Midlands region at all, so I object to everyone saying circuses are cruel and generalizing Is a circus a circus without animals? Certainly not. It's been tried before by bigger names than me doesn't have any animals and they're very very successful. in the English dictionary, the word circus actually means with animals. And it might be traditional but that doesn't make it right,bear baiting and dog fighting Diane and Pat Victorian entertainment. You object to animals in circuses, Yes you've made that perfectly clear, we actually got that message loud and clear. She doesn't object to them on her feet Now tell me have you ever that's actually plastic have you ever, come on let's not wander off, have you have you ever done anything apart from coming on programmes like this and talking about it, have you ever done anything against it? I actually try and educate the public, I do school talks, I will go outside a circus and I will give out leaflets. Let me ha hasten to add here. I'm not against circuses. I am against circuses with animal acts, and I do not try and stand outside a circus and stop people going in. I give them information and What would happen to, what wou yes sorry, what would happen to the animal acts if the circus is closed down? What happens to them now? No no follow my line. What would happen to the animal acts if the circus was closed down? Exactly what happens to them now. What happens to old retired circus animals now? You're say you're saying that we're cruel to animals ? What happens, answer me, answer from these people, these animal lovers, what happens to your animals Both sides claim they like animals. Now you're accused by these people of cruelty, of neglect, shouldn't you be listening? If people actually accuse you of something as serious as cruelty and neglect, isn't it worth a listen? Well the point is If you come up with some sensible idea yes, but they don't Have you ever, have you ever suffered yourself, No. from er from attacks from animal activists? Yes we have, it's been Liverpool. Are you gonna tell us about it, or is it a secret? have been set on fire people think they'd be better off dead. What was the zebra story? The zebra was released by people calling themselves the Animal Liberation Front they were chased through the town in Torquay until it ran off the pier and drowned in the sea. That were their logic in saving an animal's life. What needs to be done? Animal circuses should be closed, and we should have circuses with just people in them because people have chosen to be there. The animals have not. We haven't got a right to treat performing animals yes. we haven't got a right to treat animals in this manner. Grown-ups shush. Youngsters only. Should circuses be closed? Yes or no? No. That's what the youngsters have to say. Ladies and gentlemen can I thank you very much, goodnight. Right,from Highgate has said if the good lord wanted cats to fly he would've given them wings, it's cruel doing things like that to animals. One's just been handed to me here, Christine from Derby says I've kept cats for twenty years and taught them loads of tricks. They do the tricks out of pure love and devotion to their owner. And Ray er Mr from Nottingham says, I used to work for a circus, I'm an animal lover and all the animals I saw were treated very well. Rose from Coventry says, cats will not do anything they don't want to do. These cats look well cared for and I should know because I work in a pet surgery. And er finally on er on our debate earlier on, a lot of callers tonight are er I would say quite justifiably angry about the language used in an earlier debate, the earlier drugs debate by Vernon . Well we we back that up here at Central Weekend and we apologize if anyone's been offended. That is it for this week, so er hope you enjoyed it, join us next Friday for another er burning hot series of debates er another three ring circus, it's called A Central Weekend. Goodnight, take care. we get more of you than me get plenty of me on these . Right that's better, okay? Now where's the question in the book, let's see what, what you made of it before you copied it down. No actually it was just, it was just like a question erm find X. That Okay. was, that was all it was. Okay. It was just like a big list of questions. So right, so we've got X and two open brackets X add four close brackets equals minus four. And the problem is this brackets here, the X plus. What are we going to do with that? Erm before we do anything let's have a look and see what it would mean if, it would mean just as numbers. Let's say X is was ten, I mean it's not but let's say it was, we'd have ten add two brackets ten add four. Minus four, now we won't bother with that side, what would we do on this side? Would you add the two to the ten or what? Yeah. You sure? No, I would multiply it. Right, in there between the two and the brackets although they don't bother to put it in, there's a multiply. So that's the first thing to realize, we've got a multiply in there now we've got this two piggy in the middle here, between an add and a times, so the times win. Yeah? Now we've got multiply into the brackets, so we'll just leave the ten where it is and work out what happens to this, everything inside the bracket has got to be multiplied by? By two. So? Two times ten Add two times ten, twenty. Two times four, eight. Times ten add two times four, eight, That's got rid of the brackets, equal minus four. Now are you happy with that? Yeah. Okay, so you do it with the Xs then, I did it with the numbers, that's the easy bit. So whenever you've got Xs and Ys and all sorts of strange things in there think just, it's only a number. We don't know what it is yet, we haven't found out, but it's only a number. And whatever we do, if it was a three, a seven, or a ten, a five just do the same but with the X. Shall I ? Yeah that's fine carry on. What do you do next? It's going very well. Are you sure about that? Not really no. It's right, it's correct it is minus twelve but I could see you were really not very sure what you should be doing about that,that's great, you've found, you've got that down to there, let's have a little look at the number line, zero, one, two, three and so on, minus one, minus two, minus three, minus four. And what have we got here? We've got minus four take away eight, so we start at minus four start there and then we take away, which means count along that way for eight, so we get minus five, minus six, minus seven, minus eight, minus nine, minus ten, minus eleven, minus twelve Okay? Whenever you're not sure about what to do just look at that and just write it down or just think about it, visualize it, there's zero, then we can, adding a negative number or taking away, go that way up towards the negatives, adding a positive number, go that way. Okay, so you've got three X equals minus twelve see minus twelve, a negative divided by a positive comes out negative. It's the same for addition and erm same for multiplication, division. If the signs are the same, both signs the same when you're multiplying or dividing, both signs the same will give you what? Positive. Right good, and if the signs are different? Negative. So you get th a negative divided by a positive be a negative cos the signs are different. Oh that's no problem is it? No. Erm now what were you doing when you were Th trying it? You were doing two times X add two times two X add eight I was two there Mm you were And the two and the two X. I was leaving Okay let's, let's have another little look at brackets let's try multiplying say a hundred and one by twenty three. Okay? And we'll do it with brackets. So what have we got? We'll, we'll, we'll do twenty three times a hundred and one, okay? Twenty add three, put the brackets round it show that's one number we have to work out what that is first. Times, which we don't bother writing in a hundred add one, okay? Now we multiply everything that's in there by everything in here. So would you like to try that? How would you do it? You add those together. Erm I want you do it without adding them together, okay I'll, I'll show you one. Erm you've expanded brackets before, like this, haven't you? Yeah, I think s Okay, so twenty times a hundred Oh yeah. is two hundred. Twenty times one is how many? Twenty. Okay. Three times a hundred? Three hundred. And three times one? Three. Then if we add those up hundred and twenty three . Right okay, do you want to check that on your calculator? It doesn't sound about right. No. Okay so have a look and what's gone wrong here? Let's work backwards. Three times one, what's that? Three. That's okay. Three times a hundred? Three hundred. Okay. Twenty times one? Twenty. Twenty times a hundred? Two thousand. Right, not two hundred, two thousand. So that's th that's, that's my mistake there, but that's a very common error, yeah? Now if we add it up. It's going to look a little bit better. Two three two there. Yeah. Okay, we check it this way. Twenty three times one O one? How would you do it long division? L sorry multiplication, how would you do that? What do you mean long? Just normal multiplying, the way you multiply that out by hand. Have you tried that or you u have you always used the calculator? Yeah, I've always used the calculator? Okay the way you do it by hand is you just say, one times twenty three, is twenty three. No tens times it. A hundred times twenty three, will be twenty three Twenty three hundred. Add that up, two three two three, is that what you got on the calculator? Yeah. So when we're doing this normal multiplying we're really doing this. Yeah. Yeah? Now if we don't know, let's say we wanted, let's say we want to find out, what would erm what would a hundred and one times twenty seven be? Let's say I'm, I'm going, I give you this question, I want to find a hundred and one times twenty six, right? A hundred and one times twenty seven, a hundred and one times twenty eight, twenty nine, we'll put twenty five in as well. In fact we'll ma we'll make it all of them, twenty three, twenty two, twenty one, right. Find all these. What's a hundred time twenty six, a hundred times twenty seven, sorry a hundred and one times all of these. Well we could work out a, a general thing we use brackets and see what happens. Are you happy with this? Yeah. Okay. So it'll be a hundred and one times twenty something, twenty plus X. But we don't know whether we've Yeah. got twenty one, twenty two, twenty seven, twenty eight, twenty, twenty plus something, we could make that N if you like instead of X. We could make it N, N is just some number from about nought to nine. A hundred and one times twenty, what will that give us? It'll be Two thousand and ten. It'll be twenty hundred and twenty. Okay? Oh. I see. Yeah. Erm add, now what's N times a hundred and one? Well this might be th this might be too awkward this. It might be easier to split this hundred and one up a bit, hundred add one, times twenty add N, okay? That's a bit easier. A hundred times twenty? Two, two thousand, two Yeah two yeah. Two thousand or twenty hundred, same difference. Now a hundred times N, what will that give? A hundred N. Okay,a hundred . Now one times twenty? That's one. And one times N? One N. One N, so if we add those up, keeping the numbers and the Ns separate, we get two O two O add that One O one N. One O one N, okay so let's see what happens when we try a hundred and one times twenty seven, that just means that N equals seven. Now what could that come to? Well it should come to two two two O two O, plus seven times a hundred and one, which will just be seven O seven. Let's see what that comes to. You want to check that on the calculator, see if that one works? No? No. No, oh wrong again, what's it, what it give then? Two seven two seven. It should always come to two seven two seven shouldn't it? We've got two seven, that's a two. Right, I put a nine in, that was a bit more than seven, okay. So it does come to two seven two seven. How about, we know it com it always come to that, two twenty plus a hundred and one N, so let's try twenty nine, when N is equal to nine we'll get two O two O add a hundred and one times nine, which'll just be nine O nine. Nine O nine. Add that up, nine is two nine two nine. I don't think there's any need to check it on that cos we can see the pattern Yeah. that's coming out, two seven two seven, two nine two nine, what would erm so what answer would you expect if we try one O one times twenty six, what would ma what would you expect the answer to be? Three six two six. So we expect that and we're pretty certain that'll come to two six two six. We can just put it in there, it's two O two add now this time we've got N equals six, six O a hundred and one times N added on, six O six, two six two six, okay? It's, all this is showing really is that when we do multiplication normally, you see if you, if you've done this sort of multiplication, you've seen the pattern and how things are working and how you're not, someone says to you multiply erm seventeen by a hundred and one. Don't try and do the wh whole lot all in one go, well that's simple George I happen to know my hundred and one times table, as far as the seventeens. You work it out in stages, little bits, and then you add the bits together and then you add the bits together, so you say, well I could do a hundred times seventeen and then I could do ones times seventeen. And then I could add them together, or if that's a bit awkward, what I could do is I could think of the hundred and one as a hundred add one, I can think of the seventeen as ten add seven, and then I multiply them this way and I multiply all the bits and then add all the bits up at the end. So we're doing a hundred and one times, we'll make that erm twenty eight . We've done twenty seven up there, we'll do it again here, say it's a hundred and one times twenty seven. So a hundred times twenty is twenty hundred, a hundred times seven will gives us what? Seven hundred. One times twenty? That's twenty. And one times seven? Seven. And if we add all those up? Two seven two seven. Two seven two seven. Now work, this works with any number so if we've got, we want to find out erm sixteen times twenty five there's an easy way of doing it, think of the sixteen as four times four okay? And then that's the sixteen the four times four, so now it's times twenty five. And then we could look at it that way. Four times twenty five is? A hundred. So the answer is going to be four times a hundred, four hundred. So it's an easy one to check, see what we do when we do it with brackets. We've got ten add six times twenty add five, okay? If you'd like to do that one? Hello John. Thanks very much. Got Okay? time to finish your tea tonight then? Sorry about that last week. I came in after you! Oh dear ! I, I, I was supposed to have a lift, and erm I was waiting like I say ten to five we knock off half one you see and the guy never turned up, the car was there but So er it was a case of where I worked er was G P T er buses Buses Yeah. and there's no bus direct No, how's it doing there, are they still sort of Yeah. It's er, well you see G E C took over er and that's the worse thing that could happen to anyone, er cos is an accountant and manufacturers. So he just looked at it and says making a big enough profit. That's right and if, that's right, and even if you're making a profit Yeah. if he thinks he can a er Make a better profit. make a better, by selling the assets and literally stripping it, he'll do so. Er he couldn't give a damn about er About er people. No. I mean first thing he did was er redundan we used to get four weeks for every year redundancy payment, bang, no forget it. And er they're going through the courts now. It, I mean it now just it just ruins the morale doesn't it? So you're That's right. not getting good work out, people That's right. won't put themselves out for the firm and it's, it's you know Yeah. He can't see that doesn't help in the long run if, Yeah, mind you his, his short er term policies so it doesn't matter in the long run. Right. Ten times twenty is two hundred. Ten times five is fifty, then we go down here and six times twenty is one hundred and twenty. Six times five is thirty. Right. Your, your arithmetic has really improved you know, you can do these things in your head now whereas not all that long ago you'd have been reaching for the calculator thinking, oh I can't do that. And now you have a go, and get it right. Good. Is it four ? Erm let's have a look, all zeros down the end and then we've got three and two that's a five Yeah. Five and two is seven and three makes? Ten. Ten, so that's a nought and carry one, right. And carry one and then we've got two and one is three and the one you carried makes four. Actually you're right with your four there, it was just you snuck an extra ten in somewhere, okay? And that's what we got doing it that way. So you could, you reckon you could do sort of any number of those? If I gave you lots of those to do you Yeah. reckon you could do them no problem? Yeah? So try one with the Xs in now. Now what's the difference? What's the difference? No difference at all is there? Do you want to do another one with the numbers in? No. No? No okay. Try one with the Xs. on the back of that, save my paper a bit,. Right. Erm we'll put . We'll go right for the awkward ones and put an X and a Y in as well. What does that come to? Hundred times ten Okay. is a thousand. Right. Hundred times Y, a hundred Y Okay. X times ten, ten X. X times Y, X Y. Okay. And then adding all these up, well there's none of them that add up that we can just add in to any of the others, so we'll have to leave them all like that, so the answer is just a, a thousand, plus a hundred Y plus ten X, plus X Y. Now if we wanted to multiply, let's say we want to multiply a hundred and three by seventeen, that just means that X is seven, sorry X is three and Y is seven. So this should come to one thousand plus, what's a hundred times Y? Hundred thousand seven hundred. Good, and what's ten times X? One thousand Right, and what's X times Y? That's three times seven. So we've got a thousand Twenty one. Right, we've got a thousand and we've got a hundred times Y, hundred times seventeen, okay. And we've got tens times X, ten times three, Hang on, ten X, X is three okay, we add those up, one, two and three is five seven so see if that looks anything like right. A hundred and three by seventeen. Is it wrong again? Yeah. Oh no, never works this, does it ? So is this right? A hundred times ten is a thousand. Yeah. A hundred times Y is a hundred Y. X times ten is ten X, X times Y is X Y. So that's okay, the bit you were worked out is fine. So we're doing a hundred and three which is a hundred add X, X being three. Times ten add Y and Y is seven. So let's see if we've got these, we've got one thousand, yes. A hundred Y, Y is? No Y isn't seventeen. Seven. Y is seven so that should be seven hundred. Okay? Erm ten times X, which is the thirty Yeah. and then X times Y which is twenty one. Is that right now, are we still one seven five one? Yeah. Okay. Now you can see how easy it is with the numbers to make mistakes especially if you're multiplying by tens or hundreds or thousands or looking at, trying to just look at a bit of it, oh that's just, oh hang on is that seven or is that seventeen? It's actually easier when you're using all Xs and Ys. Yeah. It really is, this is the thing that people won't believe. They I'd much rather be doing a hundred and three times seventeen. But it's easier if there are no numbers in it at all, if it's all letters. When you pop it in you're not gonna, you don't make these mistakes. So try this one, that was a good, that was good that. Try this, A add B times X add Y. See what that comes to. A times X That's it. A X, A times Y. Yeah, you normally write them in a straight line but when, when they were numbers I was writing them under each other cos it was easier to add. So yeah, A times Y is? A Y. Right. B X, erm B Y. Okay, and they're all, they're all added together because there was . Well what did you think of that compared to doing this with the numbers in? That's a lot easier. It was an awful lot easier, wasn't it. There's no chance of making all these errors that I was making, oh no what's this? It's seventeen hundred or seven hundred or what's, what's a hundred times twenty, is that two hundred? Oh no it should have been two thousand. It's easier, it's the easiest thing is when there isn't a number in sight, when it's all letters. Yeah. Okay? Now a more interesting one, try this. A plus B times A plus B. A times A, A squared and A times B, A B. Right. B times A, B A. Right, normally write it A. If we get an A, a B A we'd write it A B. We keep the letters in alphabetical order when we multiply just so we can see what's going on. See why when you've done them, finish off the last one then. B times B is B squared. Right. A B, what does that mean? A times B. And what does B A mean? B times A. So it comes to the same thing. So instead of those two, we'd, we'd do that first, as you've done it and then instead of those two we'd just write two A B. So it'll come to A squared plus two A B plus B squared. So if you want to just write that in. So it's A squared A squared underneath that one, now these two, we just add the A B and we, that's also an A B, we've written Yeah. it as B A so we've got two A Bs. So it's like doing the A B and then double them? Yeah, so it's two A B, two times A times B. Yeah. Plus B squared. Right, brilliant. Try this one. What do you think of that compared to the numbers? It's a lot easier, It's, it's, it's e once, once you get over this shock of, aargh I haven't got a number, oh what am I going to do, nothing to cling on to it's all letters, ooh I can't do it, I can't do it. You know, Yeah. once you get over that a doddle . This is easier than doing it with numbers, any day. So let's try A minus B times A whoops A minus B. See what you get from that. Now it's just what you've done there, right, but you've now got to start thinking about signs a bit, haven't you? We've got a plus times a minus or a minus times a plus or what? What does it give? A times an A Right. go, that's A squared. Okay. And then erm A minus B Yeah. times A minus B Well hang on. Follow, follow the normal erm oh okay do it, go on, do it your way. A minus B times A minus B, that'll give you what? B squared. Yeah, and is that plus or minus? Plus. Good, good. Cos the signs are the same. So it's A squared plus B squared and now what about the other bits? B minus B times A is Now when you were doing over here, you did a B times A is B A. Okay so it's gonna be B A, all you've got to decide now is it plus B A or minus B A, so you can put your B A down while you're thinking about it. And what have you got? Minus. Good. So cos it hasn't got a sign in front of that A so it's a plus A. We've got a plus times A minus which is A minus. And what about the last one then? B times B erm minus B times minus B. No, you've done that already. Yeah, so it's Which is why it's better to sort of hey now, hang on, don't put another B squared in, cos you've done that. Let's, let's just put it here, A minus B times A minus B. Now it's tempting to go for the easier ones in it as you did, so we'll do the A squared, okay that's no problem. Done the A squared, and you said, well, let's do the B squared cos that gives a positive, then you got a little bit sort of not sure of which ones you'd done and which ones you hadn't. So it's probably better to stick to the system of A times that one, that gives us the A squared okay. Now A times minus B, what does that give us? That gives us the minus B A or minus A B. Yeah. Okay? So we need to carry on from there, so I've done the A times A and the A times minus B. Now we start with the minus B times each other, so what does give? Minus B ti minus B times A Will give you? minus A B. Good, brilliant yeah? Gives you another minus A B there, now erm And then B Minus B times minus B Gives you A? A B squared. Right. A plus B squared. A plus B squared. Put that one in, put the plus B squared at the end there. Right so when we add those up then we've just got A squared and how many minus A Bs have we got? Two. So we've got to finish off with minus Two minus A So we finish off with minus two A Bs. Okay, so you finish up with A squared minus Minus two A B. That's it, good. Plus B squared. Plus B squared. Now those two, you probably won't come across it much, but the level you're doing but those, those two expressions, A plus B times A plus B and A minus B tems times A minus B come into algebra a lot, they crop up again and again. And there's a n there's one more that comes in for you to have a look at. A plus B times A minus B. What does that give then? A times minus B Erm do, do the first one of this into the first one. Wasn't it? Oh that's right. Okay. So A times A. A times A, A squared. Right. A times minus B Right. is minus A B. Okay, good. B times A is B A. Right, or A B. A B . And B times minus B is minus B squared. Good, right. Minus B squared. So you've got a plus A B and a minus A B there. They just cancel out. Yeah. So what does that come to altogether then? A squared minus B squared. Right Erm so those ar those are the, I mean that that one is the most useful actually, A plus B times A minus B comes to A squared minus B squared. Cos the A B, the plus A B and the minus A B cancel out. So if we wanted to do some, I mean if you, if you can use that to do mental arithmetic to impress your mates, that's . Or maybe even the teachers if they're not teachers. Let's say we wanted to do erm twenty one times nineteen. Well let's rewrite it as A plus B times A minus B, so if A is twenty we've got twenty add one times twenty minus one. Okay? And we know that the answer comes to A squared minus B squared. Well A is twenty so that comes to twenty squared minus one squared. So twenty squared, two squared is how much? Two squared? T just two squared would be four. And ten squared? A thousand. And ten squared is? Ten s Ten Four hundred. Is a hundred. So it's four hundred minus one squared and one squared is One. just one. So it should come to? Three hundred and ninety nine. Erm have we got that right? Twenty squared. Is that not bigger than that? It should be very nearly twenty, twenty times twenty. Yeah. So could you try what I said, could you do erm what's a big number for you? A hundred and one times ninety nine. Yeah. No. What's wrong? A add B comes to a hundred and one. Mhm. And A take away B comes to ninety nine. So what, what would A be? A plus B s two. It'll be two. Th th that two is very important, where did you get that two from? Cos ninety nine plus two, a hundred and one. Right, so the difference between these two, right so let's say that's A add B and that's A minus B and if we take that one away from this one we get two. So if we had A add B, that's one number, take away A minus B it comes to two. Now let's, what d what does that lot come to on the left hand side? A A plus B minus brackets A minus B? Shall I write the arrows Ah, now we're not multiplying, we're not multiplying here. We're just working out what this comes to,wh with the minus going in to it. Now what did you mean by write the arrows, did you mean from here? Yeah. No. . Let's write it slightly differently, let's write it as A add B add minus one times A minus B. Are you happy with that? No this is all going Right. and I don't know anything That's what I thought, right. You do know quite a lot but you're thinking, phworgh where does he get that from. Well it's back to the old confusion again, that we've got this stupid sign here which can mean it's a negative number or it can mean take away, and sometimes it doesn't really matter which way we look at it. So let's put some numbers in, let's put some numbers in. Let's say we're doing, let's look at the one that I did. Which w erm twenty add one take away twenty take away one. What does that come to? Well it's, leave that as it is, this bit comes to mi think of a minus one . What do we do, you must take away everything that's in the brackets, so we take away a twenty, so that's the same as a minus twenty and then we'll take away a minus one, signs are the same so it's add one. Right take away a minus one is the same as add one, so we've got twenty add one, we can get rid of these brackets now, twenty add one take away twenty add one. Twenty and take away twenty cancel out and it comes to two. Right, so what happens here? With this lot, we've got A add B, that's one number, take away A minus B. That's going to come to A add B, A take away A or A minus A and then take away A minus B, taking away A minus B is the same as adding a B. So the A take away A go out and this comes to two B. Now this is not using a long way, a long way round to do it. Erm it is, but we're l we're seeing quite a lot about how brackets work in algebra. Now brackets weren't invented for algebra, they were invented for these normal numbers that we play with. They work for those and algebra just follows, so it just follows the normal rules that we're using for the numbers that we know. So we've looked, we've looked at one lot of brackets times another lot, which is the most difficult thing to do really, and you can do that, no problem. Now we need to look at one lot of something in brackets add another lot, well let's, let's forget about the first one being in brackets, let's say we're doing ten take away six. What does that come to? Four. Okay, so I'm going to do ten take away, now I'll put some brackets where that six was I don't want to write a six, I'm going to write it as five add one. Now that should give me the same answer as if I do ten take away five so it's take away a plus five, Yeah? That just comes to take away five, and then take away a plus one, take away one. Ten take away five, how many does that come to? Five. Take away one? Four. Right, so that works okay. Now I should be able to say ten take away, I'm going to write six in here, instead of six I'm going to put it as nine take away three. So we do, ten take away a plus nine, that's just take away nine. Yeah. Take away a minus three, is the same as adding the three. Don't forget the same with, with take-aways as well, if the signs are the same you get a plus or you get an add, erm so that's, I mean I can see this is the bit you're not too happy with, but we'll just see if it works. So take away a minus three is the same as adding a plus three, and what would that come to? Ten take away nine One. Add three? Four. Ah. So it does seem to work this method, and it wor this is the method we have to use for all the numbers including the As and Bs and Xs and Ys where we don't know what the number is. So that that bit you, you got no problem with it, if I keep to positive numbers inside there, have you? So ten take away, if we did something like ten take away A add B, well that's the same as ten take away A and then take away B. Yeah. If I say to you, I want you to do this sort of ten take away three add four in brackets, so you'd add the three and four, get seven, ten take away seven, three. Or you could do, you could take them away separately. take away the three then take away the four. So you're okay with that, ten take away A minus, ten take away A add B will be ten take away A and then take away B. But if we do ten take away like we've been doing here, A minus B and it comes out the same as this, it'll be ten take away plus A, just take away A, and then take away minus B. Well taking away a minus B is the same as adding B. Erm do you remember the table? For when we're adding and taking away and things. That if we have, let's have a look at some of the easier ones. If we're adding a positive number, so if I say add plus three to a number, it's the same as just adding them, okay? If I. so these are say those are the, that's a positive number and that's a negative number, and this is, it's, that means just add the positive version. Now how about if I take away? If I take away a positive number of course that's taken as normal take away. Yeah. Good. What about if I add a negative number? I'm going to add some money to, how much money, how much money have you got? You've got ten pounds say, I'm going to add some money to that good. So I'll add two pound to it, I'll add a positive amount to it and you've got more, you've got twelve. My, next day I come in and say oh I'm going to add some money to what you've got, and you think oh that's good. How much have you got, put it on the table. So you put your ten one pound coins on the table and I say well I'm going to add minus eight pounds to it tonight,help yourself to eight pounds,. I've added. Very much like taking away to me that did,very much like no no no no . I was adding minus eight pounds to what you had. I've got eight pounds left, well it's the same. Adding a negative number is the same as taking it away. Okay? So It's minus. That's, that's not minus that's take away, right. The ones with the rings around them are, are positive or, or negative. So adding the positive number that's just normal adding, adding a negative number that's the same as taking it away. And you're Yeah. going, where's me eight pound gone? He's told me he was going to add to my money and he said, oh the bad news is I'm adding a negative amount of money to it, and he's taken away. Okay, now the good news the next night is that I'm gonna take away some of your money, and you think, oh wow he's taking . Last night he said he was adding and he took away so what's he gonna do tonight when he said, really admits he's taking it away. I say, I'm gonna take away minus eight pounds Let's say so I add it. Let's say erm we forget about all that ten pound early and you owed me a hundred pounds, right, and I say erm forget that, just, just take it away, forget it it's gone, you're a hundred pounds better off. We've taken away, let's say erm have you got a bank or a building society account or anything? Yeah. Right. So let's say you're, let's say I'm the building society and you can have your put in your book and that. You make a withdrawal, they take it away and let's say you can go overdrawn, so you've got eighty pound in the building society, and you take a hundred out, how much have you got left now? None. Less than none. Yeah. You've got minus twenty. Minus twenty. Okay, you're twenty pounds over, you owe them, you owe me the building society, twenty pounds. Now if I say, oh well as it's I mean Easter we'll forget about that. Right? I've got your balance here and I say what have you got? You've got minus twenty, well I'll take away, let's put the sign round that . Usually they put debit after it or something, or put it in red. That's a minus twenty. If I take away the minus twenty well I'm taking it from the same thing aren't I? I'm taking a minus twenty from Yeah. a minus twenty so it's got to be zero, the answer, taking away a negative, it would be the same if I added, if, if it was minus twenty and I added twenty come to zero, they'd just cancel out. So if I take away a negative number it's the same as adding. You come into the building society and you're, you've got no money in the world and you owe twenty pounds and I say oh we'll take that away, we'll take that minus twenty away. You walk out twenty pound richer. You've got no more money but twenty pounds so taking away a negative number is the same as adding, yeah? And again if the signs are the same, I mean I know they're not exactly the same this is and add and that's a positive, it's the same as adding a positive number. A negative and a positive it's the same as taking away. A positive and a negative, it's the same as taking away. this was, this was the night I added minus eight pound to your money, and walked off with eight of it,right ? And then this, this time I say well I'm going to take away some money and I took away a negative amount and you've finished up with more. So all you need to do is remember that table which is the same, the same as when you, this is for adding adding or subtracting, and the same table for multiplying or dividing, yeah? A positive times a pos It's not no. And it's no good just looking at little bits of it. You want to sort of look at the whole picture together. Erm do you think you got the whole picture? Yeah. Okay, you can guess what comes next don't you? questions. questions first to build up. Erm seventeen take away ten take away three. How would you, if you had to do that if you do it the easy way, don't do it the hard way, how would you do that? Ten minus three, is seven. Is seven. Seventeen minus seven. Is ten. So if we get it right the answer should come to ten. Yeah. Now I want you to do it the hard way, I mean you wouldn't normally do it this way but when you've got letters in you've got no choice. So we'll do it while the numbers are there to get you familiar with it. So what we'll do is we'll put that, that means take away, right? That's a positive ten there and this is a negative three here, if you like. So take away a positive I'm going to take away a positive ten pounds away from you now. It's take away, minus. So that comes up, that comes out as a minus yeah as a minus ten. Now I'm gonna take away a minus three. Minus seven. Er it's a seven. Just. Well we're just looking at the I these minus and pluses and that. Well there's two, there's two, there's two things, there are four things going on here, and it's, it was designed to be confusing. It's not, it's not just you and everyone going what on earth is going on here. Because we've got, and you've seen this before, we'll just have a look, get this right if you can. What's that? No that's a plus. What's that? Take away. Erm no that's a negative. You can't tell they're the same the only way you can tell is if they're, if they're working with number, I mean that's a plus or a positive that's a positive three. That means take away, if it's between two numbers it means take away. So this one is take away. And what's this one? Take away. This is a take away, but we can treat it, take away three is the same as add minus three. Let's write this out again seventeen take away ten add minus three. Yeah? I'm going to add some money tonight. The bad news is I'm gonna add minus three pounds to what you've got there. Well we know how to, how to work when it's add. We just do the first thing and then we do the second thing. You see this, this sign outside the brackets let's change this as well. Let's make this seventeen erm add minus whatever this number is. Is this getting more confusing and you can think of that as seventeen add minus one times and then we're multiplying into the brackets. Seventeen add this big number here which is minus one times whatever we've got in here minus one times ten, what will that give us? Minus one times ten? Ten. Are the signs the same or different? Different. So I'm gonna say? Positive. Negative. That's it. Signs are different Okay. will give me minus and so a minus one times a ten gives us a minus ten. Now a minus one times a minus three? Is a positive three. A positive. Plus that's the same plus from there, plus a positive three. That's what they'll come to there, so we've got seventeen add minus ten add plus three. That's seventeen as well. Seventeen add a minus ten the same as take away a positive take away a positive ten, and add a positive three. We've got all positive numbers now. Hurray. So we can drop the signs and we can forget about mentioning whether they're positives or negatives, and get now a nice straightforward, seventeen take away ten add three. Seventeen take away ten? Seven. Add three. Ten. Ten, okay? So same as, same as you got here. What's what di do you get here? Ten. What I've done was three minus ten seven. Yeah. Seventeen minus seven. Good. The big thing is we've got two things going on here, two different types, one of them is a, a f . One, one is an operation add or subtract. What does add mean? Adding the two values to together. What does it mean, you're still using adding, what does add mean? Put them together you know? Okay, what does it mean in terms of the number line?the number line there, and we want to do something like two add three, what does that mean? You start at two positive to Right, good. So we've left a bit of this out, we're, we're a bit sloppy in our notation, we should be saying let's put a sort of a ring round the whole thing, to show that's the number positive two. Add positive three, see this thing of using the same symbol for add and for positive is very confusing, very confusing, it's as though, you know you're speaking a different language where one word has about fifteen different meanings and you can't understand what they're talking about most of the time. So positive two add positive three, what does that mean? Start at the two. Start at positive two okay? What does add mean? What does g g go Yeah. along is right, erm which way? Positive Go, go that's it go along towards the positive numbers. So you better count along that way for how many? Three. One, two, three. So the answer is positive five Yeah. is that right? Okay. Now what would this mean? Minus two add positive three. Don't tell me, I can guess. What does this minus two mean? Start in the negative. That's where we start. So we start negative two, minus two, and I know what add means cos you told me last time. Count along towards whoops. Count along for how many? For three. For three. One two three. So the answer should be one. One. Positive one . Is that right? Positive one. Yep. Okay, now. You didn't think adding up or taking away was this hard did you? No. Because it's very, I mean you know mathematicians have written books about this, erm and yeah kids of five or six are quite happily adding and taking away until they get to negative numbers, until someone says ah I'm going to add to that money you've got there, I'm gonna add minus seven. You can get a tantrum you won't get away with explaining . So, okay. A minus two add a positive three, now what would minus two add so that's a negative two, add a negative three mean? Well minus two is where you start, okay. Add, that means go along towards the positive numbers, and I'm going to count, how many am I going to count? Minus three. Oh. I count in that direction though, so minus means, minus three means count the other way. So I start from them and I count this way. That's a minus. One two three, and I finish up there, minus three, minus four, minus five. The other way of looking at it is you can say I'm going to count you start from nought and you count along that way until you get to this number, so I'd go nought minus one, minus two, minus three. So altogether I'd still count three that way. So negatives go that way. Now how about if I do four add minus five. So it's plus four add minus five. Okay that's always the number where you start isn't it? So we start at positive four add, add to count in the positive direction, oh Minus. we're adding minus five, whoops switch round count the opposite way. So from four we count five backwards count minus five just means count down the opposite way, so we go one, two, three, four, five, so it should be minus one. Yeah? Negative one. Now the tricky one, let's do plus four make it plus five, plus five a a takeaway a negative three. Okay? Where do we start? Plus five. Plus five, no problem there, start where the first number tells us to start. Take away, what does that mean? Count negative Count that way. So if we said take away three, let's do this first it's bit easier, plus five take away plus three, you start at plus five, take away means count that way, count to the left towards the negative numbers, so we count three. Plus five, count three, one two three. Two, plus two. So. It should be plus two. Now what does this one mean, you tell me? Plus five take away minus three. Start at plus five Okay. going that way. That take away means we're going in that direction, and how many are we going to go? Three. Three or minus three? Minus three. Minus three. When we were taking away three we went in this direction, for three. But to take away a minus three Go the other way. go in the opposite direction, turned your pen round and you go the other way. So A take away a negative, those two signs together is the same as an add. A positive. When we did our table this is for adding and taking away erm that's a positive number and that's a negative number, okay? Add a positive number is the same as a these are all the things you do with positive numbers, this is add a positive number is the same as add a positive number, right. So that's add a positive number, these are all for the positive numbers, add a positive number, okay? Take away a positive number, well okay we Take away. take away, a positive number right. Add a negative number, this is when I said I'm going to add minus eight pounds to your money tonight, add a negative number is the same as take away a positive number. Add take away a negative number is the same as add the positive number. So whether it means add or take away or subtract or negative we can sort of forget about it and just look at the signs so if get if we get take away plus three, that will be the same as take away plus three, yeah? Take away three. If we got add minus three, that's the same as take away plus three, just take away three. The interesting one is when we've got take away a minus three, that's the same as add the positive three, add plus three. Now, what I'd like you to do this, this is not straightforward. It's er anyone can do this you know. People, people always think that until you start throwing in the double negatives and they think, whoa, don't want to know! No no no no this is all rubbish you're making this up as you go along yeah? It doesn't se it's not natural is it? Not sort of, it's not obvious. Especially when I could do this one yeah, erm positive five going that way Mm. and then turning back this way. Yeah. You know, when all I've ever known is plus is this way, negative this way, it's either that way or that way, you know. Right. Now I'd like you to just have a look at these for next time erm and work them out on the number line. Yeah. Erm because that's what gets you to accept it and stop thinking this is a load of rubbish, this is a con he's just making this up. Yeah I am making it up, it's not me making it up, mathematicians had things like erm you, you, you met this sort of earlier on in school. What's seven take away three? Okay, what does that come to? Four. No problem, one number take away another number gives us a number, wow that's great. Okay, what's three take away seven? Infants Minus infants school and you say can't do it. It's obviously a load of rubbish. You ask some kid, he'll say there you are I've got three pens on the table now take away seven. think he's off his chump you know. What's he on about, and then just forget about it and they go and play in the sand or something and he's crackers that bloke. And they're probably quite right. But cos mathematicians are a bit crackers, we want, we don't like saying I can't do that. we'll, we'll, we'll find a way. You know we'll change the rules so we can do it, we'll move the goal posts slightly We'll, we'll make sure we can do that. That's what they say well we have this silly game that we play on the number line, going up and down the thing and when you do three start from three, count seven in the opposite direction we finish up at this number called minus four. Well what on earth is minus four? You show me minus four in anything, there's mi minus four houses out there. There's mi minus four people coming to the party tonight, they're all crackers, okay but it works, it's very useful it solves an awful lot of problems like you know getting rockets to the moon and things like that that we couldn't do otherwise. It comes in handy with your bank statement your temperature, oh it's minus six. It's, tonight it's, think of these as a sort of temperature numbers that, try, try these, it starts at plus three tonight and then it drops five degrees, plus three and it drops five degrees, what does it come to? Okay, it's minus seven and it drops minus three. It's erm minus fourteen and it drops by minus six. fourteen take away six. Er oh keep these numbers small so you can sort of play about on the number line more easily, and ten minus, minus ten take away minus four. Six add minus three, three add minus six. And minus six take away minus six. Any number take away itself, what should it come to? Nought. Yeah. So minus three take away minus three should come to nought. Minus six take away minus seven. And minus six take away minus five and then X take away minus one. X take away minus X. Take away X, which is just plus X, X take away X. And three X take away minus two X. Hey now on the number line you can't it's difficult to do X take away X but you can work out roughly where they'd be and what you would do and what the system would be. So if you have a look at those and play with them for next time erm and make sure that you learn those two rules about if the signs are the same Yeah. it's always then a plus sign, whether it means an add or a plus . Al also the way we talk about it is very very sloppy, we often say A minus B when we should be saying plus A take away plus B. We start talking like that people he's off again. He's flipped ! Erm it's, it's, negative numbers aren't a natural thing, fractions are actually easier and that was what happened in the history of mathematics, fractions were developed a long long time before negative numbers, the old Greeks used to play about with fractions quite a lot. Negative numbers came later. Anyway I must dash because I've got I'll do that for So you have had before I try and don't, I won't go off with your homework hone honestly I won't. Erm now next week er where are we, right. You still want a lesson next week? Yeah. Usual time, okay. That's good. Right do have a seat. I think you're sending for all my things aren't you? From er Hospital or what ever. Let's have a look, they've all come back from Oh lovely. How about that? I don't know what he's been up to, No. through the nose, but we've got them all back at any rate, so Where are we at the moment? How are you in yourself? Eh, I'm not bad I ah but I've I've improved all while I mean i have got, you know Aha. I can get about a bit, I'm not er hobbling as much, as l as long as I take my time I'm not too bad. I'm getting, you know I'm getting there. Yeah. Good. Without a doubt. Good. When they last saw you they they were actually quite pleased, weren't they ? Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Yeah There's definitely an improvement. supple, good rotation, reflexes, knee jerks, muscle power and sensation, no visible wasting. So er they're really quite pleased with you. It's just really time, isn't it ? This is it. That's got you better and better and better. Yeah. Yeah, it's getting there Er I'm we're definitely getting there, it's just taking a bloody long while. what job do you normally do? Er miner. Face worker? Er development worker. Oh so all bits of everything and everywhere. Yes. Right. Now what are we going to do about work, because it's now erm twenty fourth of August. You've been off for a while. Yeah. We've got three choices, we can either say let's give it a go back at your original job, and it might be a bit job. We can say we're going to have to keep you off for a bit longer yet. Or we can say, why don't we push British Coal, let's see if you can get you back to work doing something different. Before you go back. But I don't know what the opportunities are there. None. None at all? No. Well that's not a that that's not Which pit are you at? Yeah, they're a bit inflexible at times I find. So Very much so Some of the others are brilliant, they do all sorts Yeah. of things But 's not that way inclined. No, oh well. Never have been. Oh well. We'll have to we'll have to They're very argumentative little Yeah. buggers. I'd of thought you you won't be ready from from the latest report. What are you like first thing in the morning? Terrible. Stiff? Yeah, Okay. I've got to work into it gradually . Yeah. What's it How long's it take it to get going? Realistically? Yeah. Hour and a half. That's actually not bad though, is it? No. That's certainly a lot better than you have But been. Yes. But there again. After I've been up and about for Yeah. a while then it starts again. That's right, yeah . And I've gotta sort of sit down. It's Yeah. fits and starts, I've gotta Yeah. vary it between getting about, sitting up, standing up, sitting down. It's we it it's I mean some days are better than others. Oh yeah. You know, and Yeah. and the periods of of being good are getting longer. Good. Right, so As I say I'm def definitely getting there, I know I am in myself. Yeah. I'm sleeping a little bit better. Not waking up so much during night,wi Excellent. with pain and that. I'm, I'm getting there it's just taking a long while. Waterworks and bowels? I'm alright. No numbness or tingling? No no. I've good. lost a bit more weight, not a lot. I've lost about another five pounds Excellent. Excellent. Doing your exercise? Yes yes. All going the right way innit? Yes I'm getting there, I know I know I know myself I'm getting there, it's just Like say, it's just taking a bloody long while. Yeah. Well I can't predict how long it's going to be now and y and you may find , Well no, no obviously not in another few weeks hard work and you'll feel very What I'll do is if I give you a note for a further two months, and we can Is your job safe? Well, whose jobs safe? But they're not muttering about laying you off if you're Well they no not not now. Well that's okay . No. No, I didn't think they would be. So if I put, I think they'd have a battle on their hands if they did. Union are a little bit they won't let that happen. Good. Continues to improve with exercise. Okay? Yeah. bit optimistic. Well I am. Yeah. Yeah. I've been trying. I've been I mean I've been trying to give our a bit of a hand whenever i can, in I mean I'm not. I think I'm in way more than help but it it does me good. Yeah. You know, and I I I don't think it's it's Yeah. hurting me doing it. You know. Just a bit of serving and this that and other , Yeah. you know, just a Oh yeah, Oh . Watch Watch the lifting. Oh by I'm nothing the lifting, just just reaching a can of beans off the bottom shelf and you Yes. Yes. know that sort of Yeah. thing. You know but it's it's doing me good I think , Good. you know. I think so anyway. Right, thank you Okay. recording is that? Now if you jut want to say your name or something, just to check check that's re it's recording. If you just give me your name or say hello or something . Dave . No say say it towards the . Oh Dave . Er do you want to say it now? David . Mhm. Walter . Okay right that's not bad. That's just Is that working? That's working fine. Okay, well we'll just we'll just start then. I mean Mhm. don't be frightened to speak loud. No no See the clearer you speak the clearer it'll be on here . Ah yes. Okay. Mhm. So then and er is that a bit uncomfy No it's fine. for your there ? It's fine it's fine. Is that is that okay? Fine. But Okay then So I'm here speaking to Walter and David and you've both worked at Lyness during the second war. No the first No the second war . No no. It's both it's the second. Right you are. Well I was just actually gonna ask you about about what you did afore it. How you got into this work. So I'll start with you Walter. Well when I left school I stayed in the island of Hoy to Lyness. Mhm. And er my first job I had at Lyness was working for William on the tanks outside, tarmacadam under the tanks. Mhm. And then when I finished there, came and I was employ employed number one by them. So your first job was was working with the tarmacadam. Yeah, with William . Mhm. Doing it under the tanks. Mhm. And then when that job finished I started with . And they were the firm that were make a tunnel up the hill. But first they had to look for a camp site so Mr was the chief engineer I was employed by him, to have a look round and we discovered Lyness farm to be a suitable place. Mhm. So they decided to build the camp there. They bought the farm from the late William Wards and built the camp there. And would that be the first camp buildings on Hoy or Oh no there was more camps afore that. There would have been Sir William before that. Mhm. And er so what er what er sort of era was when about was this still right at the beginning of the war when you were doing this or That would have been I would say maybe August nineteen thirty eight. Nineteen thirty eight. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. Cos I was reading in Hugh 's book that the very first sort of work was in surveys done in thirty seven. That's right and testing the heathers for the tunnel. Mhm. They did drill holes up the hill. Mhm. But before that was working there on the tanks digging out the tank farms. And their amp was the Fleet Canteen. I see. Yeah. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. And while while the while they were testing, did they employ any of the local folk for this ? I think there was somebody employed dragging the stuff up the hill. I don't know how many how many were employed. There wasn't many men there was just a company come up and test bored in the hill. Mhm. Mm. And was this testing for possible underground fuel tanks? That's what it was testing for. Yeah. And did you know that on Hoy? No Well Were you to told that this is what they were planning ? Nobody knew they they they said it was something to do with tanks but nobody knew Rumours. Yeah. Mhm. Aha. Mhm. That would kind of be kept a bit quiet was it? The Well not in that base no, but Not in that base, no. there were quite a bit Lyness, because I remember once the Hoy Head coming down from Stromness with a lot of party makers aboard it and cameras out and afore they knew where they were the admiralty men was there whipping the films out of the cameras. Is that right? Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm and this was just an innocent party party Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. So they they do they test for the for the hill would be the first thing. Yeah. What can you mind what was the first sort of action on Hoy that impressed you cos Well you'd been there all your life you would have really seen the whole process happening. Well the first would have been the building of the tanks, the outside tanks. Mhm. When came to dig out the foundations and like the buildings round the tanks. Mhm. That was the first . Mhm. And did you go straight to school? From school to doing that? No I was working various small jobs before that. Mhm that on Hoy ? On Hoy yeah. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. So did they just have you on right away? Oh yes. Full time? There was no trouble to get work then. There was no shortage of work. Mhm. Yeah. Mhm. And and what about you Davie? You wouldn't have Well I started on farm work. Mhm. I started on farm work and then er we left that and we started with the County Council. On the Yeah. roads and quarries and Mhm. one thing and another. And then we decided that me and me brother would go chance our hand at Lyness. Ah. So the camps was up then of course when we came down. Yeah. Mhm. What So. time would that be about that you started I think about the same time as Walter for the war was declared when we were down there on the third of September. Aye you'd have been there in thirty nine. No the war was declared in thirty eight. Aye well that was the that was thirty nine. Thirty nine was it? That was the crisis thirty eight. Ah. Ah it was thirty nine. Yeah that's the crisis. Yeah. Ah yes. Yeah. Mhm. Mhm. So I mind war was declared then. Oh right. Frightened the life out of us altogether. And where are you from yourself? Are you from the mainland? Yes just here I belong I belong here . Oh I see Mhm. Right. So it wouldn't be too big a step just to go to Lyness really it was kind of a natural thing ? No no just just caught the boat at Stromness and old Hoy Head and down there and Took a bit One and six it cost on the ferry Mm. And and why did you go there? It was Well for better money that's Better prospects, that's why Mhm. we went there. Mhm. Erm Yes that really would be where the employment was. Yes yeah. We were working with the council at ten pence and hour so we thought we were going to improve on that a wee bit. Right I'll stick it atween you again now. Er Now and I'll sit in front of you listening. Would you like a table to sit ? Mm. Mm. I'm dead right with this Ah. . Okay. .So what would your first job be then when you actually Working in the quarries er loading the lorries with a hand shovel. Hand shovel. Yeah. Is that all the equipment they gave you ? That's that's all we got. And they was high sided lorries it was a quite a a throw up . Jesus. And old boss old West, Do you mind old West? Tom West and John West. Aye. Yeah. He always said, Chuck it well over, chuck it well over . All blooming right for him when he was six feet in the air. Is this the lorries ? So Yes that's the Burn Transit lorries that were loaded . They were Dodge lorries. Aye Dodge. Yeah. Mhm. Mhm. And were they did you see them coming up? Were they transported specially up? Well Yes from London. It was a London firm . Mhm. Mhm. Yeah. Mhm. But they all didn't come at one time, they were always had new ones coming again . Yeah. Mhm. And and was i how did you work it, was it like a certain amount of men per lorry or did they just come in convoy ? Ah well they d Well as you see it's three or four lorries there so many men at each lorry . Mhm. Yes. Mhm. And was it continual like, as soon as one lorry drove away did you get an empty in ? Oh the the lorries were standing waiting for you. Worse luck. Mhm. Mhm. About how can you mind how many of you there would have been? Roughly? Er in the camp? Well Working in the quarry. Oh my goodness . Be twenty would there ? Aye it'd been about twenty or thirty . Yeah. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. Twenty or thirty. Mhm. Mhm. And and where where would you have stayed? In the camp. It was all camp. Mhm. Mhm. And that was was that was the camp just right on the Lyness Fell. The Lyness Fell right on the point yeah . Aye right down to the shore there. Yeah the shore. In the middle of a turnip field. there was turnips underneath. They were building the camp on the top of the tatties and crop and turnips . It was turnips underneath the huts . Yeah. Yeah. And er put the huts up. Of Paisley. Is that right? They employed a lot of local labour of course too. Yeah. They had a lot of joiners up from Paisley and they employed a lot of local labour as well. Mhm. Mhm. But despite that it wasn't the first camp up. There was camps up for the tank workers No er they had tanks up for their men yeah. They had huts up for their men. Yeah. And did not? they had the Fleet Canteen. Ah. Mhm. They had the whole Fleet Canteen,. They maybe had a a few huts for their bosses or huts round it. Mhm. But they used the Fleet Canteen which was there in the first war. And it was right near the pier was it ? In the centre of the tanks. In the centre Yeah. Mhm. of the tanks. Mhm. Mhm. Yeah. Mhm. Mhm. And then later of course you'd get all the the rest of the camps. Was this was still fairly Oh yeah. early on in what nineteen thirty eight, thirty nine ? Thirty eight thirty nine yeah . Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. And then it would er at that time you would just have the tank workers and the quarry workers. Yeah. Is that right. Yeah. And the ones up the hill. Yeah. Digging the road up to Wee Fea. Ah right. And trying to get the light poles up. There's a London firm did the light poles,. That's right From London , they did the poles up from the Lyness up to the hill. Mm. For the lights. And right over the hill from North to South . Yeah. Was that lighting inside? Lighting inside yeah . Ah. But the lights to keep power Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. So you changed jobs then really did you both you both kind of started out in the quarries Yes as labour for Oh no. I actually started with eng civil engineer, going round looking for the camp site and then we did tramp the hills . Ah right. And lay off were the tunnel was going to go and the road up to the hill and lay off the power station and Mhm . Mhm. All that on the hill and then go down to the and measure from there to the top of the hill to see how much pipe for the Aye. for the to pump water to the hill. Right. Mhm. Yeah. So how many folk would you be working with? It was just two of us along with the surveyor. That would be kind of the cushy job Yes. carrying that theodolite and labelling I mind Yeah Mhm. Mhm. Mm that would that would still be seen as likely a better job that Oh yeah Yeah yeah It certainly was. Yeah. Mhm. But I got promoted to the road roller and then into the power station so Mm. Mm. Mhm. Yeah. Mhm you you It was a different outfit altogether. Then I left the surveying surveyor civil engineering I went in the black gang. Along with the fitters at the tunnel, looking after the locos and slushers in the tunnel and all the rest of the Mhm. Mm. tunnel gear. Mhm. Mhm. Can you mind roughly h how long it would have taken you to get the rough survey. How long was that done? Oh there was weeks of it. Weeks of it? Weeks of it because the after the put in all his markings the admiralty came and checked the whole thing then. To see if it was right Mhm. before they was allowed to go ahead. Mm. And e every week the admiralty had a clerk of works going round watching the progress. And er they had a surveyor gang checking all the lines in the tunnel that the surveyors put up to keep the men driving the right tunnel it shouldn't go p one past the other. Oh I see. Yeah. Mhm. Mhm. They were working with both ends. Both ends you see. They were working from both ends. They had so many men they had to start at the other end and Aye to the other side so as they Met in the middle. And And they did meet. Did meet yeah. And then they Just a few inches. And then they had the adits coming down from the top. The two adits coming down as well the What's adits? Well they were tunnels too. It's just a vent-hole really for And they they they chaps down to the pumps. The pumps was at the bottom of the adit. The pumping for the tunnel. Mm. pumping they'd a pump away along used to pump it along Aye but they had two at the bottom. One in each down at the bottom yeah . Oh it could've been. Yeah. Yeah. Mhm. And and they pumped in there. Mhm. Mhm. Right. Mhm. So you would wait till did did you ken what you were doing, did they explain it to you? The surveyors? What was happening . Aha . Oh yes they told us it was to be underground oil storage. Yeah. Mhm. They had three surveyors there. Mhm. And they finished . And they had an , an assistant , Mhm. A chief engineer, Edward . And Aye they had plenty of bosses. , he was a local, he was the engineer up the hill. Mm. At that was boss Aye Magnus, yeah. Yeah. Mhm. mhm. Ah right. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. Oh well I'm going back in time to catch up with your side . Wh did the when you were erm still shovelling, did they ever provide you with better equipment? Than just your shovels ? No you just had your shovel. it going. Oh I see . And was it all. down at the survey I wasn't very long there, I was only about Mm Mm Mhm. three or four weeks. Mm. Mhm. On that kind of work and then Mhm. Mhm. then I was on this roller and then we got er started up at the power station with the Mhm. with the engines. mhm. And your your roller, that would all be shipped from down South as well was it? Well it was there when I came I don't know where it Yes. Mm . Yes. It come up on the boats. Yeah. Mhm. All the machinery come up from wherever the headquarters was. Mhm. Mm. And could you drive already or did they Oh land rollers is no bother to drive No Just one lever. Forward and start. And the biggest job was keeping the water in the boiler and keeping the You had to get steam. Mhm. Oh of course. Mhm yeah yeah. Mhm. Steam roller. Mhm. Mhm. Aha. Right. Yeah. And and to get the stones, you would be working with just explosives? To start Aye you you'd be blast it down It was drilled and blasted. Mhm. Mhm. Yeah. And then the road roller. So once you were road rolling, was you still on that job when you started to make the road up to up Wee Fea? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Mhm. Mhm. That would be another major operation. It it certainly was. Getting a road up that A lot of it was done by hand. It would have been mostly done by hand. There were some bits the digger was in, but mostly by hand. Yeah. Yeah. And then it was all with stones and Aha. and pitched and tarred. It's still standing good yet. But all the machinery was put up before the road was Yes. Afore the road? Yes yes. Afore the road, yes they just towed through the mud and Yeah. Mhm. Mhm. Was that because they were so desperate for it? Yeah Yes they had to get lights for for working . Mhm. Yeah. Mhm. And I suppose that would have been this Aye that's the Mhm. the Blackstone. Six cylinder er four er six cylinder Blackstone. Mhm. And and what were they? Just g g generators? No? They they drove generators? They drove generators . Aye That's Yeah. Mhm. Mhm. fixed down on a concrete bed and then your generator goes on the end on Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm Mhm. Coupled. Mhm. Mhm. Its flywheel and all this are going after it's . what would you call one of them then? A six cylinder Blackstone. Ah right. Never heard of one of those . That's what it is. Mhm. Oh. So would you mind describing how you got it up there again cos I thought it was quite a good story. Well they set off they towed it up and then they had at least six six of them Burn Transit lorries all towing it up. Yeah. And er our road roller was pulling too. And we got half up and stuck. And then er they put a pulley away up the hill. That was kind of a massive pulley in concrete. And then put the ropes round the pulley and pulled down the hill instead of pulling up. Mhm. Right. So we got it up that way. Mhm. That's quite clever, use gravity to help you along . Er yeah. Yes downhill . And See the roller smooth tyres wheels that could pull nothing up there. No. But with its own weight going down you could er Oh we got it up. You would need steep rope for your pulleys? Oh yes. Oh yes. Aha. Can you imagine down a hill in road roller . It's just a nightmare. Yeah. So there was there was no accidents caused by all that going up ? No it all went Mhm. Mhm. sticking here and there but er Aha. we got it there. Mhm. And then once she was up, you did you have your power station already built? No oh well the floor was there. It was what the I think What was the station? That's part of the station. Is that? That is. That's the station. Yeah. It's a it was a Oh right. corrugated iron building. It's corrugated iron building, that's the station . Yeah. Yeah. Oh right. Of of course it's just quite a peedie building isn't it. It's not a great big . Oh it's not No no. It's not very No. not very big but my there was some noise inside there When that big er belt Yeah Yeah. er and what was actually inside it then? Well there was nothing in it but the engines and and the And generators. Mhm. And compressors. And and how many engines would there be? Er Five was it? It was er three, two hundred and forty horse Blackstones , Yeah. One small one. On hundred and forty horse. Ah and a Crossley. And a Crossley was three hundred and fifty, it was the biggest one of the lot . Yeah. Yeah. Mhm. There'd gave been five five engines Five engines yes. And how many generators would that run? Five generators All the all the generators. Mhm. Five. So you had to have an engine for each generator? Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. And then that was all erm giving light to the tunnel? Light and power yes. In fact, Lyness got light off it to begin with. Aye. Aha. Because they had no power station at Lyness. Of course Un until the admiralty put in two stations later on. A and B station. Mhm. Aye. mhm. Mhm. It was the Blackstones Mhm. Ah right. Mhm. your compressors, was that for air? Were Yeah. you feeding air Yeah. into the tunnel? For the drilling. Aye the Ah. And for the mechanical shovels, the slushers. Aye it was all compressed air. Compressed air. Mhm. Mhm. Ah right. Mhm. What about the folk working in the tunnel, would they need air at all? Yeah. No no there was plenty of fresh air. Plenty of fresh air. Ah but they had a vent-line They they had they had round to suck out the A big the gelignite fumes and the diesel fumes yeah. It was a fan blowing it out. Flan blowing it out yeah. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. And if you went past the end of it with your hat on and you're whoof You'd a bald head. The fans are still in it yet, for the Oh. for the admiralty the fans in it yet but they're Oh right. not wired up of course. Aha. Aha. no lights. And what was your day to day job then? In in Oh well worked in shifts . Three shifts right round the clock. Mhm. Mhm. Seven to three and three to eleven and eleven to seven. Mhm. One week about. Ah right. And you were supposed to work half past seven to half past five. Mm. But there was no limit to working time,four to ten at night if they wanted you. Mm. Ah right. There was no hours worried about. Mhm. Work on work on. Mhm. Yeah. Aye. Mhm. mhm. Mhm. And once your surveying was done, did they actually put you inside the tunnel? Oh you the whole time with the surveyors. Oh right. Because you had to put in the level plugs for them to keep the level and the centre lines to keep the centre. Mhm. Every day you were in with the Of course you would survey the outside Yeah. And then you would just need to be b used to build the whole of the inside then . Yeah. Yeah. They surveyed the whole hill, right over the top. Mhm. And then er decided where the entrance was to go in. Mhm. And then er kept the centre line then. Right. Mhm. So d you had a North South Aye North South, yeah yeah. East West ? No. No No. Just right through . No just North South . Right through. Right through. That was right through and then once they got it right through, they cut the big chamber then. They drove a ten by eight tunnel on that side. Mhm. To the right and a ten by eight to the left and then they went up a grade and they drove up same on both. Till they got a good piece through. Mhm. And then they came back and they drove shafts down to the bottom. Right. And once they got that down th cut the arches then, the wide arch. And they 'creted then As they took the big piece out, they kept pumping concrete and shifting then pumping again. So as the roof was all secure before they blasted the centre out. Oh I see. Yeah. And it was on rails that On rails Yeah. Mhm. And then pumped the concrete in at the back. Section at a time. And once they got that section all set, they started to cut the next in. And then they shift again. Pump that one in and kept moving on. Mm. They got the roof secure, cos it was a wide Mhm. hole then. It was a massive job. Yeah. Mhm. And then they blasted the centre out. Mhm. The side and the b floor put in then. Oh right. Mhm. And was it off this one central chamber that you took the tank chambers round? Yeah off the first one, Yeah. and then you drove another tunnel out to the right Right. and you so far out and then you drove another one in to the next chamber. Yeah. Same again to the next until you got your six chambers. I see. And then they drove another tunnel out, an access tunnel which mhm. Once they were concreting the pipe tunnel as they called it. Yeah. They used that to take all the muck out then. Ah I see. Yeah. Yeah. Mhm. And how were your six chambers arranged? Was it in a circle like that?a central one No. Aha. No. No no. One l one like that and then the entrance into it. Right. The next in like that. Aha. And the next and the next just the same. Ah I see . Yeah. Mhm. Mhm. And the same off this side then ? No. No? Just all the one. Just this one. Mhm. Six on the one side. Ah I see. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. So you would like come in to the main entrance and then Come into you'd have all the tanks right Yeah. to one side and then your exit. Yeah. Mhm. Ah. Mhm. Mhm. I see. Mhm. like I imagined it at all. Mhm. Mhm. And where did the expertise for this job come from? They would all be folk engineers for South Engineers for South yeah. Aha. And was that 's job? 's job yeah. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. Course checked the whole time by the admiralty. Mhm. They were there checking the whole time. mhm. See that nothing was Mhm. faulty or out of place. Mhm. Condemning if it was wrong. Mhm. Yeah. Were they pretty careful then? Oh they were. Yes. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. They watched everything closely. And what about your your workmates? Were there any other local fellas on it or Oh yes, a lot of local fellas Oh yes, yeah. Everyone who was spare was Everybody as they left their school got a job doing something. Aha. They worked in the kitchen or or huts Yeah. Working in the huts. or running in the running to the Yeah. Yeah. Mhm. Mhm. Mm. Mhm. Mhm. And you see a great lot of the people stayed locally Well they had their wives up. Yeah. Yeah and they stayed in local houses. Mhm. Mhm. And of course had their own camp and their own agent's bungalow Lyness, down on the point. Where the Gord Gordon stayed and Aye. Ian and Jimmy and Bert and er Tom and all that ones. Tom and and John John John both of then stayed there. All the gentry was down there. And if it if it came an air raid you started scurrying to the hill to get in the tunnel. The air raid shelter. Yeah. Mhm. Er Mhm. And then of course erm would it be later that they took up the English miners? No they came up pretty soon in it, when they were digging the road but Yeah. Yeah. they didn't think too much of the weather like this. No. Yeah. mhm. Is that right. Mhm. D Ho roughly how many came up Fifty or sixty I think. Aye it was about sixty . About sixty. Sixty in the first lot. Yeah. Right. But then men came from all over. They came form and and Aberdeen and Mm. Inverness and Yeah. Shetland and all through the North Isles of Orkney, everywhere. Mhm. They flocked in. Mhm. And Spitzbergen. Spitzbergen. I was not there when they The Norwegian lands? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Mhm. Grand workers they were. Yeah. Mhm. Mhm. Great big tall men. Yeah. Mhm. Aha. Mhm. Yeah. mhm. Did you have special clothing?did you No we got we got an oilskin coat and a pair of rubber boots. For to to protect you in the tunnel they said you wear a helmet, but nobody hardly ever wore it. For Is that right? on your head. Aye. And folk weren't keen on wearing them? No they hardly e there were maybe some did but very few. Ah right. Mhm. And did you get any masks for the fumes ? Oh no no no. No? What about you Davie were you in I was never I didn't work in What about working in the power station, did you have any Did you get ear muffs for the noise. No. Didn't have them but we should have had. But what a noise was in there. Mm. But you didn't get them. No. No. No. No. I had a wee office but it was kind Yes. of sealed that you could go in and have a cup of tea in. Mhm. Ah. Mhm. Mhm. So was your main work in the power station, checking everything was running alright? Checking Aye, just looking after engines. Aha. Aha. Mhm. And d had they shown you like were you sort of trained if anything did go wrong, you would have fixed it yourselves? Aha. Oh yes, most of the things we'd have done the work ourself. We did all the engine repairs. Mhm. Mhm. Er we dismantled one of the six cylinder engines, we did it in a shift. Me and Tommy. Mhm. We Mhm. removed the pistons and Mm. new liners and that in the eight hours we were on shift. It took a bit of doing.. Yes, that's going And the blooming heat and the Yeah. noise in there. We never spoke we just worked with signals. Ah. You know our our putting up the pistons more or less a which is we had a big of er Tommy would know what I meant and I would know what he meant. Mhm. Mhm. Yes you would need some form of communication like that cos shouting would just be useless Yeah. Yeah. Mhm. No. . So it would pretty well train you up as engineers by the t by the time you'd done that then ? Oh yes oh yes certainly knew you had to know what you were doing with it you know. Did you have any kind of basic training afore it like? Did they take you for a week and show you Not really well we the Blackstone engineer fitting up engines, he stayed with us for a while to show us the ropes like you know. Aha. But after that you just had to do it yourselves. Mhm. Ah right. Mhm. And And air raids, I mind the air raid Mhm. We'd we'd to clear out. You couldn't work with the lights you see No. Shut the lights down. You used to switch off the lights and run. Yeah. Mhm. Oh really. Right along the hill. Mhm. And you'd hear the tracer bullets rattling about the tin sheds. They had a they had a air raid shelter below the power station later on. Aye after . Mhm. Mhm. Oh. But er when you were after the power station so when clean away from the station altogether. Did you never enter the tunnel like you were Well they were in the tunnel anyway. Yeah. Ah we were too far away. You were too far away. We didn't go in always, we used to If we were on the top of the hill we used to watch from the top. Mm. I think one time there were some folk up from Lyness they cleared out and they were in the tunnel and of course they blasted. And somebody says, Oh they've dropped a bomb on the tunnel. It was the blasting in the tunnel. Aye quite safe in the tunnel. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. You would be in the dark though were you if you shut the power down . No the li the lights was on in the tunnel. Oh yes. Yeah. Oh yes you could leave the lights in the tunnel but they could see the lights that were, any light about the station, they could Yeah. see that . Ah I see what you mean . Yeah. Yeah. Yeah Were very particular about lights they I think it was about a hundred feet in the entrance that there were Yeah. there was no lights at night. So as the light wouldn't have reflected through the entrance. Oh I see. Yeah. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. And then they had a tip outside where the lorries backed into Mm. to pick up the s the er muck out of the tunnel. They had a very small very faint light and they had a blue light. Aye. A very light man tipping the skips into the bins could see what he was doing. Right. And the three lorries could back underneath and load and go down and tip at the Golden Wharf at Lyness. Ah right. Oh yes I'd forgotten to ask you about that. Yes Mhm. Mhm That was the . And And of course a lot of the muck was tipped on the hill, you can see the marks of it yet. Yeah. Where the rail track runs from the North town to the South town or you could go go by rail from the one side of the hill to the other. Inside or outside Aye. Yeah. Mhm. Mhm. Yeah that must have been quite something to see something chugging round Hoy Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. Think what you would think of it nowadays. It's just crazy. Mhm. Aye I must ask you once you once you had your sort of main tunnels built and your light and then you would start concentrating on your chambers? The chambers yeah. Mhm. Mm. Now h wh what did it look like inside one of these chambers? Well the Once it was or while you were building it and once it was up. When we were working on it it was just a load of excavations. Mhm. And you could see all the tunnels going in below. And the tunnels at the top and the shafts down to the top. mhm. To get ready for putting the arches in. Mhm. It was only when you blasted the centre out that you actually Yeah. Yeah. saw the big Yeah. Right. cavity then when the roof was secure. Mhm. Did you did you go up right through the hill at all to get light? Never you would stay a good bit underneath No no. No there'd be there'd be about It must be two hundred feet above . Oh yes. Oh yes. Aye. So we'd be half up the hill I would think. Aye. Yeah. Mhm. Aha. Mhm. So when you came to blast the the centre out, was there like a special warning to everybody Oh there was who was working in the hill to The No oh no they the you just moved back N Aye, shifted back Shifted back out of the blast and you got boom boom. That's all you got. Mhm. Mhm. You you'd think there was somebody knocking on your ears. Yeah. Yeah. Is that all is sounded like? Yeah. Aye, it wasn't a big charge it was No. just breaking up the pieces of stone. Yeah. yeah. Right. Mhm. Aha. Mhm. You n you were never concerned that the whole lot might come in or something ? No. No. You wouldn't be with your concrete No. It was just if it was a clay seam like number five chamber, were the full of clay. Mm. And they made it shorter for that reason. Right. But most of the hill was quite safe. Aha. Er but er Lots of slates falling down on Yeah. the top of your locomotives Yeah. Yeah. Ah. Coming out. Yeah. Mhm. Mhm. Be terrible dark would it not be? No it wasn't dark at all. Mm. No? No. You got water running in places but not badly, in the wintertime it wasn't too bad. Mhm. and you said there was actually this the two Irish fellas that got killed in the tunnel? Yes they What h boys. What happened to them? It was a roof fall. Mm. Ah. After the blasting. Mhm. Ah. Enjoy that? Oh good good good I enjoyed that. Welcome to the programme. Whale is on the wireless, here in the heart of Britain's largest county, to wreck havoc, or to be gentle, sweet and loving. Any way if you want to talk, you can pick up the phone, you can ring me now, it's . . We want to talk first of all about the North Yorkshire M Ps, we have t We're on to Michael as I speak, and his secretary has been very very charming, very helpful, very nice. She has tried to get hold of him. The others are unobtainable, er but I think what we should do because of course you are there to tell them whether or not you think they should be going for er twice the rate of inflation pay rise. These are guys who earn a minimum of thirty one thousand pounds erm if they don't have any companies sponsoring them, a lot of them have companies sponsoring them. They get free travel. Er they don't do so badly at all, they get free er They get allowance for their accommodation in London, Okay? So they're not out of pocket, they don't have to keep two homes going. And I I really don't think they have any business without consulting you and me, as the peoples that they represent, because I'm I'm a voter in North Yorkshire too, so I don't think they have any business actually doing this without consulting us first of all. Now correct me if I'm wrong, I'll look in the other r Excuse me while I look in the other room. Er all the MPs for North Yorkshire have have agreed for this haven't they? We d Okay we don't know, we want to ask them we w So if you are an MP in North Yorkshire and er you think I'm giving you a hard time and I know you sneakily listen to this programme, I know you listen. Er I suggest you pick up the phone and you give us a call now on , alright? Er and I say I want to come on the on the phone and I want to talk to James, I want to put him straight, I tell him that we're not doing this and I want to tell him that we actually erm know that er the people will be concerned about us giving ourselves a huge pay rise. If you have any views on whether MPs should be doing that or not, give us a call as well. you know the number. I keep forgetting it. I'm also told that we'll have no problems with the phone calls this week. Have we We have no problems with the pho that's all been fixed. We have a new phone system, so you can r If you want to test it out you might as well just give me a ring and come on the air to begin with. And if you don't want to talk about that we'll talk about something else. You know something that erm appeals to you. But in the first instance, and there the calls are coming in, I would like to hear about your views on MPs in North Yorkshire voting themselves a double the rate of inflation pay rise. If you have any views pick up the phone and call me now. all sort of Islamic and er fundamentalist and Matthew and son. Radio York, that's where you're tuned, the B B C station for North Yorkshire and er James Whale is here on the wireless with you bright and e I'm amazed I can get up after being up so late on a Friday night, I'm amazed I can be in here this early on a Friday, and somebody said well it is twelve o'clock . You're you're right. Before we go to the calls, one other thing that you may be interested in talking about. I don't know er why we're not more continually erm more on the case as far as our members of parliament are concerned because remember they're there for our benefit and front page of the Daily Mirror this morning. Women deserve rape says M P's wife. Front page. This is er a fairly topical issue at the moment. Many women deserve to be raped, a Tory M P's wife said yesterday. Sir Nicholas Fairburn's wife, Sam, backed her husband's astonishing views that there is no such crime as rape. I want you to take that in, I'm pausing for a little I want you to take it in. It may sound nasty but a man would never look at some of those women she said, a lot of women deserved to be raped. It's not fair on a man if a women undresses and then changes her mind at the last minute. What sort of hole did these two crawl out of? What sort of people This is a man who dresses up remember, in very strange scotch plaid trousers and jackets. And he and his wife together are saying a women deserves to be raped. Personally I don't care at what stage of sexual intercourse you're at, if a women says I want to stop now, then you stop now and that's it. If you have any view If you've read the front page of the Daily Mirror today, and if you are as angry about it as me, I'd be interested in hearing for you. Let's go to our first call and erm that's good. I'm glad you came in there, cos I was merrily talking away wasn't I? You were. Yes I was, I wasn't even looking at the screen . Let's go to erm Margaret, I think. Mr Margaret what? What did you say then? Oh Mr . O Oh right Mr . Oh about Margaret Thatcher. In this screen, I'm glad to say that public opinion you see can shift things. They're going to the B B C engineers who put this screen in the top of the ceiling, which makes it almost impossible to read, are now going to move it. But of course that does keep them in a job. Right Mr . Erm I see. We New phone thing and not working terribly well. Er Mr hello. Hello. Sorry about that. That's alright. Got to learn where the knobs go in this place. Yeah. What can I do for you? Well I wan I tried for two days to talk about Lady Thatcher. What do you mean you tried for two days? Well I tried at quarter to nine the day that there there is talking about it and er I wasn't allowed on the phone. Why wouldn't you be allowed on the phone? Pardon? Why would you not be allowed on the phone. You tell me I don't know, I wasn't here. Are you one of those that upsets the people, are you cleverer than most broadcasters, that really Oh no I'm not clever at all. Oh yes you are. I You managed to operate the phone, course you're clever. Oh okay then. Anyway, Mr . Yeah? What? Mr ? Yes. Can you hear me? Yes. Okay, right, what did you want to say? Well I wanted to talk about Lady Thatcher. Do you want me to tell you what I want to talk about? Well I I don't mind one way or the other. I mean as long as you understand the laws of slander and liable? Yeah well. Okay. Well what I wanted to talk about is, when Lady Th Thatcher first came into power Could could you refer to her as Mrs Thatcher, cos I'm not really into all these titles, they annoy me. Mrs Thatcher. That's better, yeah. When Mrs Thatcher first came into power, she got hold of the pound note, held it up and tore it in half and then tore it into a quarter, and she said this is what the pound's worth under the Labour government. Mm. N now then, the other thing is when Dennis Healey went to the monetary system to ask for a couple of million pounds, he was shout down shouted down, but I don't think any MP has ever been to the monetary system to ask for a couple of million pounds, actually. What's your first name? No Douglas. Is it? Yeah. Oh you don't mind if I call you Douglas do you? =banks Junior. I beg your pardon? Douglas N Fairbanks Junior. Oh Right. Er when thy come to give you your lunch let me know and I'll let you off. Er right, go on. Well er the thing about it is, what makes me d what er makes me When Lady Thatcher came out of power Yeah. she never said how much the pound was worth, well I I don't think it would cover five pence piece. Have you been er worrying about Margaret Thatcher tearing a pound note up for the last twelve thirteen years? I ain't been worried at all, O I don't do is worry. Oh you don't? No. Oh. And they wouldn't let you on? You've Radio York all week, they must have been over er over overwhelmed for callers I imagine this week, I would have thought you would have been a boon to anybody's talk show. For two days I wasn't allowed on the show, and they What they said was there was too many other people on before hand. Yeah. They they probably though that your personality was so special that it would it would actually have made everybody else look rather stupid. No I think what it was was a load of bullshit they give me. Oh they didn't, that's an awful American word. You can't say Bullshit on the road On the radio. Can't you? No. Oh. Not in a farming community like North Yorkshire, people get very tense about it. Oh jolly good. Yeah. Anyway Douglas it's time for you to go and have your next injection isn't it? Pardon? Thank you, bye. Er time for us to move on and talk to er Sam er who is there somewhere. Now Sam bear with me. Hello Sam? Er you're not on that one. Now Danny er set up these lin Now let Hang on just one minute, what Twenty two. Would you say red is Oh red is twenty one isn't it? Okay let me put tat onto twenty one. Hello Sam. Hi. Hi. I've got it now, it's okay Danny. I've I've sussed it, alright? Okay. All I ask i Sorry Dan Er s sorry er erm er Sam. Sam, that's right. Fine you hang on there. Sorry Dan? Yeah. Three letter words is very difficult for me to keep Er see if you can get me a date. There's a In in the weekend review with the Daily Mail today, Bonny Langford is sitting there saying all I want to be is a women, and not thought of as a little girl. Bully for her. And er she's a lovely Don't you like her Sam? Oh yes. Yeah, thank you very much indeed Sam. I like everyone me. Do you? Yeah. then we're not going to have much to talk about then. Oh yes we are. Okay. Yes. Go on. Well it's about the MPs and the wages, Mhm. salaries. I object most strongly. I'm a pensioner, and er I have to exist on a very very low Who is your M P? My MP is er Mm. Michael Allison. Michael Allison. Well we're trying to get Michael Allison on the phone and he may well be one who doesn't agree with this. I don't think he will, but he's the MP for Selby, he's a conservative M P, but I don't care what politics they I don't know about what party they they support Mm. they shouldn't be taking this r wage r this wage increase. Wh what Well no I agree. And not all the MPs are voting for this by the way. Oh well I'm very pleased about Not all the the MPs are voting for this because a lot of people can't have work, let alone have a pay increase. You're right. now then, I'm retired. Mm. I'm nearly seventy, er my pension, will be going up by a pound and odd, I'm not right sure how much. That'll next April. Mm. Er at present I get sixty one pound a week old age pension, I've a works pension of about twenty some pound a week, so that I live on eighty pound a week. And I'd like to give a challenge to either er Michael Allison or any of the other MPs to come and live in my little bungalow for And exist on that rate for a week. Now wasn't it er Matthew Paris when he was still an M P, he's journalist but Gone back to being a journalist now. Matthew Paris actually tried to do that. He went up Yes, and he couldn't manage could he? He couldn't manage it and he said that he felt that he had to stop being an MP er for several reasons, one of them was that he thought most MPs like he agreed he was at certain times, were out of touch. That's right, well I feel sure they are. I mean er now they talking about putting V A T on fuel, Mm. er I have er storage central heating and I can't afford to put them on. I've got them on in one room, er I put them on a little bit Mm. If every pensioner I have to I I don't want to I mean I a I don't want people to think I'm m m too much of an anarchist. No. But surely if if every pensioner said that's it we can't afford to pay this and didn't pay. I wonder what would happen, they couldn't put everybody it prison for non payment could they? I don't know, they couldn't. I though that about the poll tax anyhow. I mean I payed it obviously because you If you live you live in er you live in the land you've got to pl go by the law. Exactly and if you don't pay it, and there are a few silly old so and sos not paying it at the moment, I mean the rest of us have had to pa Er well that's another thing you see we have to pay it Exactly. the extra for them, which is ridiculous you know. I and I'm not a I'm not a moaner, I try to be I'm a Christian and I try to be a Chris Christian spirit to everyone. Mm. you know, and I give everyone that Okay Sam one one of the doubt. Just before you go, we're going to try and get Michael Allison on. G Er he's in London at the moment, he's not at He should be up here, I don't know what he's doing in London on a Saturday morning, he's supposed to be up here having a surgery somewhere. What do you think about Halloween by the way? Halloween? Yeah. Well As a Christian, you said you were a Christian, Halloween is er the celebrating the devil, Yeah. and er celebrate the devil. No we don't I we don't I my my faith we don't celebrate the devil, we don't cross our fingers, we don't say er you know anything about luck or anything like that b Oh don't you? the devil. Er no. I'm always crossing my fingers, I'll have to be careful about that. Yes. Well that's it. I mean I I I s I have to I say it myself occasionally, I stop very quickly because I realize that Mm. it isn't it isn't my religion, we don't we don't celebrate anything er I mean I know Christmas o obviously there's a lot of pagan things in Christmas. Well apparently black magic is on the increase in North Yorkshire. Is Well I was I'm trying to think where I was I was at Blackpool, er I went to Blackpool for two days, I went with some friends. Yeah. Er and then they'll be saying how can you afford to go to Blackpool? Why I I I can because I I saved a little bit, and I'm I h I had to keep going on my savings. Yeah but er has Blackpool got anything to do with black magic? Yes it has. They were on in the funfairs on the prom Yeah. and on er on the piers. There were cassettes and they dealt entirely with occult. With Mm. occult and with black magic and that kind of thing. Okay Sam, thank you for your call. Don't cross your fingers, don't look at any black cats, don't run under a ladder. If er I'm being quite serious actually now. Another thing we're going to talk to somebody from the N S P C C who's coming in in a few moments to talk about Halloween trick or treating and stuff like that. Because er most of the year we tell our kids not to talk to strangers, and then one day a year you send the little so and sos out to knock on peoples doors to ask for money er and sweets and things like that. I mean are we completely loopy? Or, as some people say, does the devil have all the best tunes. Melanie are you there? Erm I tell you what Melanie, you will be in uno momento. Okay Melanie? Hi. Hi. Come closer. Is that better? Much closer. Much close Ooh that's lovely. So early in the morning. Very early. Oh it's lunchtime for most people isn't it? I'm just thinking of myself really. Yeah. Melanie, where are you? I'm in car park at the moment. Are you really? Yeah. Oh I went past there not so long ago and that radio station that's got no listeners in Yorkshire has a huge advertising thing there. yeah, I don't know why. No, I can't imagine why, listening to it, it sounds like everybody working on is about twelve, doesn't it? That's right, yeah. Yeah, I'm going to ring them up in a moment and tell them I object to some of the advertisements, particularly for drugs that they're advertising. No, well I don't listen to it, so I wouldn't know . Good girl. You don't even know what I'm talking about. No. No. I haven't a clue either. Er anyway Did you buy anything nice? No, I haven't been into York yet, I'm on my way, I live near Harrogate. Oh I see, you came in with me this morning. That's right. Yes. Don't you find that ro Don't you find the mess they're making on the A one there, over near Knaresborough, annoying? Absolutely terrible yeah. And I've already had one ac car accident on the A fifty nine so I don't like that road either. You don't? No. That is a pig of a road, I must admit, I don't know why they don't make it into a dual carriage way. Mm. It would only take a couple of houses to be knocked down and they could make it into a dual carriage way. Yeah. As long as it's not my house. Why? Is yours right on the A fifty nine. No, it's Alright so you're in the car park of ? I am yeah. On the mobile phone. Yes. Yeah. And I'm a civil servant in York. And how come civil servants have mobile phones in their cars? Because I do a lot of travelling on my own Mm. as you know a lot of lone lady travellers have aren't very safe. So Yeah. it's a small expense which I think's worth it. Cos I can travel three hundred miles on my own at night so you know it just gives me a bit of safeguard. Mhm. Hang on just one moment, can you Melanie ? Yes I I just appealing for MPs and I know you have the radio on just to see if I'm being rude about you, and of course I never am because I'm a I'm a nice person. Er I would like an M P, and there are a number of North Yorkshire M Ps, how many? About erm eight I think. Seven seven seven. About Let me just w Yes seven. there are seven North Yorkshire M Ps. Er I'd just like one to call up and tell me about their pay. Mm. You know the number guys. Any any female North Yorkshire M Ps? No. Not one. This is such a male chauvinist county this isn't it? North Yorkshire. It needs a good kick up the bum. Sorry anyway. Back to Melanie, who is a civil servant. Working in York. Working in York. And probably getting less than a third of the pay of most MPs round here. And we've been told that we'll only get between a nought and one point five percent increase at the most. Which is what we were given last year. So how do you feel? Not very happy. Because we've also been told we're probably going to lose our jobs in a couple of years unless we're prepared to move to Glasgow. And so why have the MPs taken it upon themselves now, remembering of course as I mentioned early, that they are on a minimum of thirty one thousand pounds a year. they have free travel on the trains, wherever they like to go, they have secretarial allowances, and some of them use their wives as their secretaries. And they allowances, I think, up to another ten or eleven thousand a year for accommodation in London. Yeah, well you tell me. Or ask one of them to tell me, because it's not fair. Well they won't ring in, Melanie, at the moment and er we're r ringing round their homes and trying to trying to get them out of their beds and things, but they're being a little elusive. I'm not surprised, they're probably embarrassed. Mm. Well listen, if they do come on w And we've got your mobile number, we'll ring you back if we find them. Certainly, yes. And if you're in the middle of a supermarket, you can talk to them right in the middle of a supermarket. I'm on my way to M F I. Are you? Yeah, to give them some stick, so Oh really? Certainly, we got a bookcase and there was I see. and it's taken about three weeks to get hold of it so I'm going to see if it's ready. They er They're they're such lovely people at er M F I. They would absolutely delighted to speak to you, and d I'll tell you what to do Melanie. Yeah. Tell them you're a friend of mine. Alright then. Okay. I'll do that. See you later. Speak to you later bye bye . Bye. Okay. If you've got a phone, whether it's in your car, in your house, at the bottom of your garden, you can pick it up and give me a ring on . And er I do this bit now don't I? I do I do er er this is radio Do I do a time check. I'm going to do a time check. It's twenty six minutes, alright? Twenty six minutes past twelve. And then I go, B B C radio York, the station that's first for travel. And then you take it away, don't you? Go on. That's right. Good afternoon James. Starting off on the A one between Catterick and Leaming Bar, the weekend contraflow's in operation at the moment. All traffics using the south bound carriage way, there are delays at the moment of four miles on the south bound approach, also fairly busy north bound through those road works at the moment. Some good news on the A one, the earlier abnormal loads which were heading southbound and causing some quite lengthy delays near to Boroughbridge, they're now parked up near to Wetherby so they're not causing too many problems at the moment. At Stockton on Forest, Stockton Lane Bridge is closed this weekend for resurfacing, that doesn't reopen until six o'clock on Monday morning. the M sixty two in west Yorkshire near junction twenty nine, the loft house interchange, there are various roadworks and lane restrictions on the slip roads there, and that's causing traffic to be slow moving around that junction at the moment. Finally, back in North Yorkshire on the A one six eight, between Dishforth and Thirsk, the contraflow continues between the A one and the A nineteen. Danny Savage A A Roadwatch. Thank you very much indeed Danny. And looking at the traffic on the railways, it looks to me as if it's all absolutely wonderful, hunkydory and everything else, so er unless you're er er bl s No no no no all the trains right up to the er nine minutes past one Harrogate train er, and the four minutes past one Plymouth train, all seem to be bang on train. And of course as they say, if they're not, we will let you know. Alright Yeah. Yeah you can call us now. M Ps' pay or anything you feel about Halloween. Should we be celebrating Halloween or not. If you have a view gives us a ring. Prince and er You You You You You. B B C radio York and the Whale show until two this afternoon. And we'll be talking to the N S P C C in a few moments. Just er er sort We're going to keep this running through the show. I really do I wish to have an MP here on the phone line and talk about this er proposed pay rise. They cannot do this again without expecting us to cause trouble. Cos I haven't said that my MP can have a pay rise, and as I vote for my M P, and you vote for your M P, they have to ask us first as far as I'm concerned. Alf, hello. Hello there. Yes Alf. Good afternoon to you. Hi. Er I just thought perhaps this morning, why they're not answering you is erm they usually have surgeries on a Saturday morning. Er they have phones, We're trying their surgeries and a number of them are still in London and a number of them er Er not replying. No. I mean they won't you see. The thing the thing about MPs is they they think erm You have to be fairly careful because I I spend quite a lot of time interviewing MPs and I I think that er er they're quite interesting some of the time to talk to. but if they get the upper hand, and if they think they can start er dictating, then they will, alright? Yeah. And you remember that they're in no position to dictate because they're there for you and me. That's right, they're elected by us. Of course they are. Now some people may say that thirty one thousand pounds isn't a great deal of money. And and and in the sort of business that a lot of M Ps, or people that become M Ps, and the sort of Mm er way they have to l It may not be a lot of money, and maybe they are entitled to some more. But I don't think they can go voting themselves more money whilst the rest of us have trouble in finding work. Yes, I agree with And they're voting to cut back benefits, so it seems that they perhaps have misjudged. And if they are able to misjudge on on this particular issue, then they are likely to misjudge on other issues, so er we'll have a chat with them and we'll find them out what they think and er what they say. Okay yeah. Erm what are you doing with my headphones? Are you unplugging those? No. Are you sure? okay, sorry about that Alf. Alright, no problem. Er you you're sort of chatting away and people come in and they're all over the place,so er station where you are then? I know it's like it's like like the train station, isn't it? In York really. Er so you're not Are you bothered one way or the other, or not? Erm. You didn't sound too bothered to me. No I suppose not in a sense, but there again we should be because like you've just explained, why should they give themselves a Mm. without consulting us first. Okay. Well hopefully we're tr we're chasing around Michael Allison at the moment. Oh right. Am amongst other people, so we'll see w we can get him on. Well I think he's been on before and he's quite a decent chap, I think. Is he? I've never met Michael Allison so er I'm sure you're absolutely right, I shall er wait and find out. Thank you Alf. u Bye. Bye bye. Er I also want to find the person who's responsible for the traffic flow in the centre of York, because I think they should be resigning. I'm not sure why er York is I mean y There are worse traffic jams in York than there are in the west end of London at the moment. So whoever it is who's er sorted that out, perhaps they will come here before me and er and account for themselves. I was going to do that. O nine Yeah. Right, thank you. Okay res that's the Yeah ring that number, that's the number to ring. Now the N S P C C has er warned us of possible Halloween danger and er David I I missed your name there David so you'll have to remind me what your name is. Good morning James. David isn't it? David I'm Yeah. I'm protection manager at the local N S P C C child protection team. And I've just found your microphone as well, which is quite Mhm. You'll have to bear with me David, I think you're only the second person I've ever had, if you'll excuse the expression, in this studio. So you're on there. Trick or treat, which is an American idea, which seems to have come er come over here over the past, ooh I don't know, five tens years hasn't it really? I was I was wondering too, myself, as I was travelling here where where it actually came from because er I don't remember as a child, myself, doing something like this. No but we do W we we've always er celebrated Guy Fawkes for some strange reason, which seems Yeah. to be a very unusual bit of history to celebrate. Yeah. Particularly when it went wrong and after all the man was purely a terrorist. But why do we I mean why do we encourage kids to go out like this at the moment. I mean there were four or five knocking on door of er a friend of mine the other day, who said y They were they were under the age of ten. Yeah. Yeah. I can't answer your question about why we encourage them to go out. We As you see from our press releases, certainly not encouraging children to go out Mm. and er if they do, what we're hoping to do by this particular campaign is to warn parents and carers of the of some of the dangers of doing that. But I think trick or treat itself, maybe has got a bit perhaps distorted from what one might imagine the American idea originally was . Mm. Perhaps in local communities where children might actually have Their trick might have been something entertaining erm and the treat itself might have been something like erm you know American Mm. candy or something like that. Yeah, but I mean we're getting away Wha from it, the things is And that's right, but what we've got now is children going around knocking doors, perhaps knocking on elderly peoples doors Mm. certainly knocking on strangers doors, and er demanding Almost demanding money erm or they'll do something perhaps quite unpleasant to someone . And that's I can't help thinking that's really got quite some way away from the original idea. when the kids get s thumped er we all get we all c Are your headphones alright there? Okay. Er it's seems to me really I'm just scanning your your press release now, for the sake of the children. Mm. Er N S P C C warns of possible Halloween dangers. I would have though Halloween was a danger cos it really is First of all it's a satanic er celebration, that's everybody seems to think it's great, we'll dress up as er as witches and demons and things like that. that'll be fine. And nobody Even the church I mean I know the church can't agree on anything at the moment, we're sitting here just down the road of course, the general synod of the church of whatsit and the archbishop of thingummybob is sitting there over their muesli and cornflakes I should imagine at the moment, or a late brunch, erm n not saying anything. I haven't seen one church official saying that Halloween should be scrapped and we shouldn't be celebrating it, or maybe the churches ought to be er putting forward some idea of their own. No, they've obviously got other things on their plates, at the moment, haven't they, that they perhaps feel is more important And I don't see y you actually saying that er perhaps this is er You know this is th th th the sort of the fun of the devil, here. Mm. You mentioned earlier on that that perhaps er like with Guy Fawkes, there's a lot of things that come from the past, from our history and we lose Perhaps we lose a bit of sight about where they've come from. And many of those things do have dangers attached to them but they also have, potentially, a bit of f er er fun attached to Really? I don't see any fun in this David , Mm. I'm very sorry, I don't I can't understand what what Well. pretending to be the devil Okay if you let is going to do . let me finish what I was going to say. Go on then. Erm I think what the N S P C C by by bringing out this particular information to help parents and carers with trick or treat, is wanting to do is is to make sure that the fun that children are wanting to have doesn't actually go badly wrong. Erm and er that it's maybe very important at a time like this when children are potentially going and and knocking on stranger's doors to be particularly careful so what we've done is is is put together a simple guide for parents and carers erm which suggests that er they shouldn't just let their children go off for the evening. Erm that they should know where they're going to go. That ideally they should actually be doing this with just family or friends, erm or or or adults that they actually know. Mm. Not not this going off. But if they're gonna go off they ought to be telling their parents where they're going to go. Erm and and when they're going to be back. Erm we're certainly very keen indeed that that young children aren't just allowed to go off er in ones or twos. That th that if they're going to go they go with older children or or adults, there's no reason why Mm. they can't actually do this, if they're going to do it and we're certainly not encouraging them to do it, but if they're going to do it then there's no reason why they couldn't do it with adults. Mm. But they certainly shouldn't be encouraged to go into strangers' houses and we'd also ask er people who perhaps do have children knocking on their door not to invite them in either. Erm The last flipping thing I do, invite them in. Yeah. I I actually have a bucket of cold water just behind the door and I couldn't care what age they are, whack . Right, fine well maybe you ought to be announcing where you live James at the end of this so No thank you. so it can be avoided by any children No thank you. It's the only fun I have. It's a serious point, it's a serious point because some people erm perhaps do like to Mm. respond positively to children so oh yes yes come in hold on Yeah. a minute I'll see if I can get you something Well they're stupid. and of course I mean they're absolutely stupid I had Yeah this trouble once with a with a young child and er I told this this this person er granny figure if you like, don't talk to those children I've told them not to they went on and on and on. I mean you can't have it both ways No. you know, people have got to realize that this day and age er children are taught not to talk to strangers Yeah. and however genteel that stranger maybe it's actually giving the children the wrong signals. Yeah yeah that's right, and the next door they th the next door they kno knock on there might perhaps be someone who perhaps Mm. does have some idea in mind that's going to cause harm to the child and the child innocently goes in. So if you're a parent and you're allowing your kids to go out on er trick or treat night or Halloween, then you don't deserve to have children. David didn't say that, I said that you know, lets not mix our words nice and mealy-mouthed about it. If you allow your young children particularly children under the age of ten out you are a fool. It might be interesting to actually If if the paren if the children are insisting, cos children put a lot of parents er a lot of pressure on their parents. Oh everybody does this, I want to go out too I want to go out. If if parents let Well if you can't control your children you shouldn't flipping well have them. If parents allowed their children to go out last year, what about going out with them this year? How how about that as a very practical suggestion or as you say perhaps finding Yeah. something else to do with them instead. Okay David, thanks very much indeed for your time and for talking to us today but er if you have a view on that you might like to give us a call. Er I should say that I'm only saying this because it's written in front of me, some churches apparently in York are putting on alternative festivities er I don't think they're trying very hard because I haven't heard of any and I certainly don't move around the place, hear of any. Others are holding traditional barn dances and parties etc. That will be as much as fun as er Sunday school I expect and probably just as well attended. So if you have any views on Halloween, trick or treating, and er remember what David and the N S P C C said. Don't, I mean it's silly knocking on strangers' doors, it really is ridiculous knocking on strangers' doors. Any views give us a call,. Elaine Paige I don't know why I played that was the wrong record to play. I hate that record. She's not a bad person, actually I quite like Elaine Paige but er I hate that record. I don't know why I hate it I just hate it okay. Er O nine O four s oh hang on I'll l l l=let you do this okay go on take it take it. That's the number ring in. I've got the Beatles, I've got the Beatles next. I have yes I'm picking up I'm picking up, I'm picking up Ellen hello. Ellen? Ellen? I'm not Ellen How are you? Is it Ellen? No. Oh it's Michael is it? Now then James. Michael. How are you? I'm fine. Why why did I think you were Ellen? Well. Now Ellen was on the other line. I don't know why. Ellen was on yellow which is twenty two and you are on whatever er white which is er twenty nineteen That's right I have no idea Does that answer your question? I can only take your word for that. Okay well it's true. Right. Okay. Michael from York Now then how are you? We spoke last week actually Oh you're the wealthy one the Rothschild one aren't you No I'm just normal. Oh just normal. I just wanted to Not according to all the people who phoned in afterwards. Now listen to me Go on. We're having a bonfire this Friday Yeah And we haven't got a guy. Well I'm not coming Are you interested? No absolutely not. Can I book you to go on top of the bonfire No you can't. How much by the way? Er what's your normal rate? Er for you, travelling to York what do you think? Five grand? Five grand, no problem as long as you're prepared to er go up in smoke. Oh go up in smoke. that's another ten. That's another ten grand fifteen grand I'll sit up on top of the bonfire until it gets hot we ought to have a phone in James. Who would who would want you to go on top of the bonfire. Okay well we can do that. O nine o four six four one six four one. If you would like to see me on top of Michael's bonfire ring in and the er th th the more amount of votes we get in for that listen to me. What we ought to do we'll have the vote in We will will we? Who Well if you if you it's your show of course I'm glad you remembered that Right. Well for the time being we'll have a vote who would rather go on top of the bonfire you or me. You or me? Yeah. Well w nobody knows you I mean Yes they do I'm very famous. A B You are are you? Well we did have a few of your funny friends on afterwards saying do you know this man is he he he is er got the best in parties. If you want a party he's the one to go to. Really? They said you've got some wowee parties Oh well there you go you see, now are you interested then Friday night? Friday night Yeah. Sitting on your bonfire? Yeah. Absolutely not Why not? Well, cos I'm not. I'm going to be busy Friday night Okay well the offer was there anyway. Listen Michael it's very very nice. When you're having another one of those parties I read about in the Sport. In the Sport? In the Jacuzzi with the girls I'm your man delivered daily don't you I'm going to have to go my lunch is on the table. Oh what you having? Pate on toast actually. Really? Well you're on a diet aren't you? You what? In fact in fact , we've just moved in today into this place. Yeah. I don't know if you're doing anything this afternoon but we want a cleaner You do? Yeah. Do you pay good rates? What do you pay? Yeah whatever you want. Yeah. I m I m I'll do anything for money, I'll literally will do almost anything Is your wife there? Yes. Let me have a word with her if she's attractive then I might come over. Wendy. Wendy, bendy Wendy. Hello James. Wendy, how are you? I'm very well thank you how are you? I'm very well too. My sympathies. It must so like my husband and I would like all the listeners to know It must be difficult. It's very difficult. We've only be married actually erm eighteen months. Why? I mean presumably he's got a lot of money I mean Well is he going to last long? Well, every now and then he has a bit. Does he? Yeah. Okay. I mean have you got him well insured? Very well insured. Good girl, listen that's the only thing I mean that's The life insurance would be wonderful Pardon? The life insurance would be wonderful. It would would it? Well you better erm no no no I mustn't be seen to encourage that sort of thing. No not over the air. No. What's the new house like? Erm well it will be very nice but it's a bit like a building site. Is it? Mm but it will be nice. What are the neighbours like? Erm I mean you sound enormously younger than he is. Do I? Yes and presumably you are. It's sort of the old man young wife syndrome erm well only about a year only about a year younger. Really? Er we've got one lot of neighbours who seem very pleasant and we don't have any other neighbours. Oh that's okay then. So er it should be fine. Yeah he's debauched himself quite a lot judging by his voice . Well he's an unsavoury person really but I'll hand him back, he's lurking around. Is he lurking around? To talk to you. Okay fine thanks Wendy it's our secret bye. Hello Er what a lovely wife she says what a lovely man you are. Pardon? S Say again. Listen all you viewers out there, is it viewers on the radio? Yes it can be whatever you like. If you would prefer t if you would like to see James Whale on top of bonfire please ring in. Thank you Michael Alright. Have a lovely afternoon . speak to you again And my sympathies once again to your lovely wife. Er is the number to ring and we're still looking for a North Yorkshire M P. Have we found Michael Allison yet? Are we? He was exhausted by his debate on the church I don't well probably because nobody else turned up. It was one of those debates when nobody else turns up, but on a more serious note I'm concerned that the th th the problems and we've had them here in North Yorkshire caused by terrorism in Northern Ireland and whilst debating Northern Ireland erm there were very few. There was about fifty percent full the house of Commons was about fifty percent full which I thought was a little worrying. Not to worry right lets go and fine Ellen er on yellow which is twenty two. Ellen? hello Ellen? No can't be on yellow can it? Ellen doesn't seem to be on yellow, is she? You think she is Is she? Okay. Right well let me er let me let met me just er try this one? Ellen? Morning. Lemon? Morning. Morning! Oh Morning. Good morning. God, you're load there. Where are you? I'm at Scarborough. Are you? Yes. Er is it smelling still? Oh it's er it's overcast but it's quite pleasant. Overcast but quite pleasant. Yes. Have we got any coffee left guys? Bring me a cup of coffee. Thank you. Yes Ellen what can I do I I'll tell you. I can read what they said about you. Do you want me to tell you? Well you can do. It says Ellen in Scarborough, regarding children and trick or treat and general behaviour. Well it's not the general behaviour of children really. It's not the children that I get so annoyed on the the trick or treat and the previous running up to the bonfire night. Er the amount of children Yes. that actually sit outside pub doorways until nine ten o'clock at night Now a lot of these children are on the average er eight nine ten eleven twelve year olds Oh I needed that. now I mean you know, they're a bit young. They are very young. They're too young I mean you've got the dark nights on Mm. and with everything that's happening with children, Yeah. I mean they can't even go to the shops sometimes and they're not safe. It's been proven. But what what do you say these I mean what sort of people are are having these children? I mean they're totally degenerate inadequates are they? You know I've had er I've I've had seven children myself. Well you should be ashamed of yourself allowed my children to go out on trick or treat. What'd you have had seven kids for for goodness sake? Well I had, they've all grown up now. Er if I was in power I'd put a tax on every child after two I would have taxed you out of existence Ellen. Ah ha well. You could have got a T V or listened to the radio. Well yes, I suppose so but I wouldn't be without 'em. Well I suppose not. But the point is it's Mind you I would at Christmas. yeah, it's it's the people that do allow their children to go out, and I'm sure there's a lot of parents out there that agree with me on this point, you know, Mm. I mean it it just shouldn't be allowed. Yeah but it's You know it's it's it it is it's stupid. I mean the only people who do it are the parents themselves. Well they're to blame. Obviously I mean Yeah. they let them go out and they don't know where they are, but the majority of of children that do it year in and running up to Christmas time they do exactly the same at Christmas, Mm. Christmas carolling and walking in to pubs. Well I think pub landlords are to blame. I mean there we are we've got a er purveyors of er intoxicating liquor allowing children to go in to their bars or hang around outside. Yeah but the point is I mean if the barman's busy in the pub on a night time and it's dark he don't know whose outside Mm. does he? No you're probably right. couldn't particularly blame a landlord for that. I don't know what you can do about it though because if people are that thick, there's nothing much you can do about it is there? No, but I mean it's it's too late crying isn't it Yeah. if anything happens. So don't ring up complaining that your kids were sort of er abused or whatever if you let them out. If you let them go out at night exactly. Lets see what other people say thank you Ellen Yes alright, thank you. Have a nice Saturday bye bye. Bye. Okay want to give me a call after the news we've got erm a little music after the news and then if you want to ring you can do that now erm about anything you like. If you want to talk about something different MPs voting themselves er twice the rate of inflation pay rise. If you want to have your say on that feel free. And let me just before we take the music remind you of er the front page of the daily mirror today. We're hoping to get somebody from erm the rape crisis centre on the phone to talk about this. I find this particularly disgusting. Front page of the mirror. After ex-law minister's outburst women deserve rape says M P's wife. Women deserve rape says M P's wife . I think we should make a phone call to the constituency office of this man and ask them what they think of their er representative. Hang on, oh. According to Nicholas Fairburn's housekeeper he and his wife has gone out. I would have thought they would be hi hiding under the bed for saying this. Let me read it to you. Many women deserve to be raped a Tory M P's wife said yesterday. Sir Nicholas Fairburn's wife Sam, backed her husband's astonishing views that there is no such crime as rape. I repeat, there is no such crime as rape. It may sound nasty but a man would never look at some of those women she said. A lot of women deserve to be raped. It's not fair on a man if a woman undresses and then changes her mind, at the last minute. Once a man is sexually aroused and is quite it is quite difficult to stop isn't it? It might be difficult but that's the difference between well never mind. She added it's the nature of the beast a sign of the times . Now I don't know but I would imagine that Lord and Lady Fairburn should be drummed out of Parliament, well he should. I have never ever in my life read anything so ridiculous. If you want to make a commit you can ring me now call now. O nine O four, if you're outside York,. Call now. turn me mike on now and speak don't I? That was my impression of a Leeds accent. Do you like that? Er right welcome back B B C Radio York Whaley's on until er two this afternoon and before we do anything else er a little bit I saw in the paper, Unions about turn, that's the shop workers' union known as USDOR erm have done an about turn and they now say because they saw the writing on the wall, that they think Sunday trading is okay, well more or less. Er and they have forced erm their union to aban or the shop workers have forced their union to abandon its previous policy erm and back opening on the sabbath. I am as you probably know a huge supporter of Sunday trading. I always shop on Sunday and I just thought that it was nice to see in the paper today it looks like we will have legalized Sunday trading everywhere for all of us fairly soon. Good I'm very very pleased, very pleased. Er Chris is on the line. We'll talk to Chris before we play a bit of music. Hello Chr hang on a minute Chris don't go away hello Chris. Is that you? Yes. I think it is. thinking er you were saying that er You were what? pagan feast. Did you say you were thinking? You I was thinking Oh you were thinking oh good that makes a change for our callers You were saying that er Halloween is as pagan feast. Yes. so's Christmas why shouldn't so why shouldn't we not celebrate that so to speak? I don't I don't celebrate Christmas do you? Well I do, but I want I want to guy who rang in that wanted you to sit on top of his bonfire. Mm. Why didn't you ask him to sit on top of your Christmas tree? A s see how he liked it. You think I think it was a bit mean of him. Well I think he would have enjoyed it too much to be quite honest with you that's why I didn't do it . you never know. You know. I think he might he might well have enjoyed it. I don't know. Yes well I suppose so A anyway lovely to talk to you. Okay. Thank you Chris. Bye bye. Marvellous absolutely marvellous. We'll take in some more calls after this. Erm And yes you've guessed it an old Motown hit from erm back in the sixties. Samantha Reeves and the Vandellas, Dancing in the Street. Samantha Reeves Dancing in the Street. And you're tuned to Radio York on the Whale show until two and er now we shall probably although the phones are ringing at the moment erm run out of calls I should think because between one and two I know most of you are having your lunch or at the pub or whatever. So er give us a call if you're there. Er William doyen of the broadcasting standards council and a man whose seems to er I don't know I don't know whether he courts bad publicity or he but anyway. He's in the paper today saying why I now believe drug taking should be made legal, and er I think he er he's absolutely right. I don't understand why we make the poor so and so's who are addicted to er to drugs er fear the law as well. If we were to decriminalize drug taking we would probably go a long way down the road to solving the problem. Got any views on that because er bear in mind a lot of the towns and even some of the villages in North Yorkshire have a a problem with drug taking now er that the police are quite concerned about it. So William erm on Thursday night erm he said on B B C's Question Time erm which was given over to crime and punishment issues which had not been debated and erm William said he'd a come to the conclusion now that he believed drug taking should be made legal. Er I don't know if you have any views on that, give us a call. And super model's pay has gone down from ten thousand pounds to er five hundred pounds a day. So if you were thinking of becoming a super model, my suggestion is that er you don't do it alright because it's er it's not worth it. It's I mean would you get out of bed for five hundred quid a day? Would you get out of bed for five hundred pounds of course you wouldn't. So er if you're thinking of becoming a super model if there is anybody out there who's thinking of becoming a super model perhaps you'll give me a ring and er and I can break the bad news to you personally. We also wanted to know if anybody had any views on I mean it. We So Sunday mornings lie-in time right? Right now I don't want to get you up I want to encourage you to set your alarm for seven o'clock, quite low, and when I come on at about two minutes past just snuggle up to your wireless and enjoy the music and the news and the views about the religious scene in and around North Yorkshire and beyond. What more can I offer you? Well sport, traffic and travel, what's on, think for a minute and plenty of opinion. So go gently in to every week, every Sunday morning with me Simon and a Sunday breakfast show, seven till nine, join me you'll enjoy it. Oh good, er,That's the first time I've heard religious sort of erm I better not say what I was going to say. Sunday morning Sorry, er right, where is he? Where is he? John John is it? Erm John John are you there? Yes hello. Hi John, tell me what you do. I'm the er information officer at the North Yorkshire European Community Office in York. You are aren't you? Indeed. I'm I'm I'm absolutely glad you've told me that and of course what is the big day that's coming up on Monday? It's the er official day of the ratification of the Maastricht treaty. Yeah. Yeah. And are there going to be flags in the street? Bonfires burning and fireworks being let off? I think it's highly unlikely. Oh. Unlikely indeed. Oh that that must be a bit galling for you, really, John. Er well I mean I'll have my fireworks on Friday night the fifth of November but erm Oh that's a great erm celebration of terrorism isn't it yes. Well I wouldn't quite put it like that Why? But erm Wouldn't you I would I mean wasn't Guy Fawkes a terrorist? Well He was. Don't mince your words John he was. You're not studying to become a politician are you? Oh no way. Are you sure? Absolutely. Because that was a politician's I'll play that trailer for the Sunday breakfast show again in a few moments and get you terribly excited. Absolutely. Erm so nobody's excited about it, not many people knew about it. Well I wouldn't actually say nobody's excited about it I mean I think that the way these things happen is that they they're gradual rather than er Mm. accumulative I mean er So on Monday when I wake up Monday morning, Yeah. How will things be different for me? Well th there are a number of ways in which there are differences I mean that that that there are things that people might notice themselves er as opposed to kind of, you know, high high politics, are Mm. are things like erm in the area of what you might call citizenship, for example in the er European elections you could erm vote in another European country, you could actually stand for election in another European country. Yeah. Erm there are different things that e effect consumer policy, environmental policy, and there are lots of things that happen in the educational field. I think that erm young people in particular will see some differences in the way that they can move around different European countries, for example study in another European Mm. country or if you gain a qualification erm in er in another European country you can use it in any other one of the E C twelve. So it's sort of a mobility thing and erm I think people will notice it on erm on that kind of level erm but as I say it's a gradual process it's cumulative and erm So basically there was no no point in it what so ever John Well I'm I'm not some I wouldn't I wouldn't say that I mean I'm saying that erm Well you shouldn't say that John, you'd be out of a a job, wouldn't you? Well I I don't have any er mandates,I mean it's not my er Mm. I I'm basically just erm giving information about it I don't have any mandates Isn't this Okay. Isn't this going to make it difficult now, I mean with jobs the way they are, does this mean tat people can come in from erm E C countries and er there is no reason why they shouldn't be given a job erm against somebody who lives in this country? Well that's absolutely true. And there's I mean it's the same for us, as well so er That's true, yeah. Yeah. Erm it's a it's a two way street. I mean er erm it's a single market for every citizen of the E C twelve so an Italian, a Belgian, a German can come to this country and work, er but the p Assuming they can do everything else as equal, their qualifications are equal and so on. Mm. Erm but the converse is true, that er er er a British national can go and work in all of those countries, so instead of seeing it as a threat, I mean one can easily see it as an opportunity. It's interesting though, that after all this aggravation, the fact that er the Prime Minister nearly lost his job, er there was nearly another election erm there's going to be no celebrations, no fireworks, no balloons, no huge dinners on Monday we're just going to sort of peter into the Maastricht treaty coming into effect . Well I think that's a good way of putting it, absolutely, I mean er As as I say but it it is erm I think it's been a long process and to get I mean it's taken nearly two years since the Mm. treaty was actually signed and the process has been so long and er various people have been er As it were, knocked with the Danish referendum, the french referendum, and John Major's had his own difficulties in getting through the house of commons. Erm Well there's an understatement, yes. Absolutely. and I don't think that it's the kind of erm erm b bonfire night, fireworks celebration type Mm. of event but erm I don't think that that makes it er negative, I think that the idea is that it's it's cumulative and er that's that's the way, well as you say,. Okay. Thank you very much indeed for talking to us John er er and I'm so sorry it's not going to be more of a a m m milestone in your life. You know I mean always looked forward to champagne but er there we are. Thanks John. Thank you. Bye bye. Bye. Radio York the Whale Show on a Saturday afternoon. Now Welsh M P, this is quite funny, has moved the motion if you'll excuse me on the subject of public loos. He rightly points out that we need more ladies toilets and if you know you get the chance to to use the ladies loo it's cleaner and better looked after than the men's, I've heard. Erm and the simple reason he says the the historical length of time taken by females we need more public facilities. Also to make them more user friendly especially for mums with toddlers in tow, they need to be more roomy. Of all the things the Welsh MPs have got to talk about they decided public toilets are the most important. You have a view on a public loo then give us a ring, rather seedy unfriendly dirty smelling of urine places if you want my own public opinion. O nine O four six four one six four one O nine O four six four one six four one. I want you to pick up your phone and call me now cos I could do with a couple of phone calls so pick it up now O nine O four six four one six four one. Hello oops hello Jennifer. No not Jennifer hang on just a minute let me try Jennifer there. Hello Jennifer? No on blue on on blue on blue what blu what number is blue? Twenty three okay well I've it on twenty three I don't know why it's not working. Let's try again. Hello Jennifer? No let me try this one. Erm Jennifer hello. Hello. Hello what's that noise? I knew this was going to happen it's going to be one of those days. Jennifer? Hello. You've got you've got a funny thing on your whatsit. I don't know what it is. Have you got your radio on Jennifer? No. No it's not a radio sound. It sound like a baby alarm to me. No I haven't got a baby alarm either. Haven't got a baby alarm eith oh well that's okay that'll be fine I don't care . I'm gonna have another cup of coffee do you mind? Not at all. Okay. Where are you calling from let me have a look up there. oh Jennifer from York. That's right. Oh I thought you were calling from . I was going to say I didn't know there was such a place. There's . There is isn't there. Yes. But that's up erm isn't that up There's Thirsk Thirsk yeah Yeah. yeah it's up near Middlesbrough isn't it somewhere up that way. Yeah that way yes yes. Mm. But no from York from Osbaldwick . Oh God this coffee's cold urgh. Well apparently we can't find anywhere to to make coffee yeah. Oh I've gotta do the can you can you sorry about this Jennifer That's okay. I've got to take the traffic now. Can I take the traffic now I think I'm gonna yeah that's that's okay. Would you would you hang on just a minute? Certainly will. And would you give me points out of ten for how I get into this okay? Right. All right here we go. Er right I'll just leave you there for a moment and put that back up there. I have to say something like hang on just one minute erm I have to pull this faded down don't I go B B C Radio York the station that's always first for travel. Good afternoon James. Well starting off on the A one between Catterick and Leeming Bar there's the weekend contraflow in operation there today. All traffics using the southbound carriageway at the moment there are delays of about five to six miles on the southbound approach to those roadworks also quite busy northbound at the moment. Otherwise the A one is quite busy throughout the region but no other major problems are reported. Football this afternoon Scarborough are playing Bury at the McCain Stadium so you can expect some extra traffic in Scarborough town centre with that football. Also at Stockton on Forest Stockton Lane bridge is closed over this weekend. That's for resurfacing work through to six o'clock on Monday morning. The A one six eight between Dishforth and Thirsk still has the contraflow in place between the A one and the A nineteen and finally just a reminder that er contraflow on the A one at Catterick is causing southbound delays of between five and six miles. Danny Savage A A Roadwatch. Very very well done Danny I thought you were good. How am I doing by the way Jennifer? Oh ten out of ten. Ten out of ten thank you very much indeed Jennifer. Er I see actually that er there is a little delay on the one thirty three London Kings Cross train. That's not going till one forty five and the one th er twenty five Manchester Victoria is not going till one thirty nine and the one twenty Manchester Airport isn't going till one twenty eight but there's no big deal about any of that really so most of the trains are on time that you. More traffic oh hang on turn that off right more traffic and travel a bit of a bodge-up at the end there really Jennifer. Right Erm. Right Jennifer's on from York. What we going to talk about? Erm about the Halloween about Oh right yes yes Yep right. Yes yes. Erm I haven't actually been listening to the programme I was asleep I've got to be honest. Why? It wasn't that boring. No not It wasn't that boring. What d'ya mean you were asleep. I was on T V until two o'clock this morning. How come you were asleep? Well just that kind of person I suppose. Oh God. I dunno. What do you do Jennifer? I'm just I'm interested. I'm a domestic maintenance engineer. A housewife I see. Right you've heard that one before. Yes erm Yeah but housewives don't usually go to sleep at this time in the afternoon. Right. I was up a six this morning does that Mm. you know. Where's the old man? Oh he isn't I'm on my own. Are you? Yes. Oh probably just as well you can please yourself what you do now. Exactly. Yeah. Yes yes. I do have two children though so Yeah. Halloween thing does affect me. Are they going out wanting to go out and sort of terrorize the neighbours or not? Well they're not erm I'm a practising Christian Oh that's a chair and erm we're having an event at our church in Osbaldwick Mm. called Saints Alive which is basically a fun thing sort of celebrating the lives of the Saints. I mean I don't understand why the church or the so called church or whatever you like to call it. There's the there's the big one in York isn't there I mean that's like number one in the land or number two in the land. Yep. Why isn't he pontificating from the battlements about this. Why isn't he sort of shouting his mouth off about it. He shouts it off about lots of other things. I mean why doesn't he say something about it? Well I don't know I mean I can't answer for them. Erm But as a as a member of his club you should be able to you should you should be able to bring power to bear on the er the top bod shouldn't you? Well I don't know should we? Yeah of course you should. I yes people power . individuals and we we can think how we like. I mean we're not sheep that Mm. follow what someone else says. There are Christians who believe that there's nothing wrong with Halloween. I don't I mean I don't think really the majority of people who mess around at Halloween understand what what is really going on. No exactly that's half the problem. Which I think is probably more of a problem for them than anything else. Yes yes exactly. They don't realize just what is can lead to. You know look at the debate within the Church of England about erm er female priests female vicars female clergy whatever you want to call it. Yep. There's no debate about Halloween. Here we are each year we have a huge celebration of the devil and nobody says a thing. Yeah exactly. I mean it is wrong and I don't think people realize just how wrong it is until they really stop and think about it. Mm. I mean even I understand you were talking about the children sort of being out in the dark on their own erm even just something as simple as that. Who in their right minds is going to let their children out in the dark? Persuaded by the devil you see. Subliminally persuaded by the devil to let them out. Yes well I don't know I mean C S Lewis says we take the devil in two ways. We either take him too seriously or we're too flippant about him. Mm. You know and either way is just dangerous. Yeah I agree with you I agree with you. Erm I I am surprised well I don't I'm not surprised really they're probably busy doing things but I thought we might have got a couple of vicars on this er this afternoon to talk about it. But they were probably asleep like you are. Oh quite probably or preparing sermons for the morning Mm. tell people how terribly bad it is tomorrow. Will they do that tomorrow? Possibly. Yeah oh well never mind. Well er watch how you go you'd better go back to bed now I suppose. Yes yes I think I'd better. All right. Okay. Jennifer nice talking to you. Nice talking to you thanks very much. Bye bye. Bye bye. Okay that was Jennifer. If you want to join me you can pick up the phone give me a ring O nine O four six four one six four one. All those people who've never done it before and if you're in bed at the moment I'll perhaps have a chat with you while you're in bed this morning. It's afternoon keep saying that it's afternoon it's morning to me this afternoon pick up your phone and give me a ring now O nine O four six four one six four one. Erm hang on just a er just a er Simon? Hello Simon? Why is this not working? There's a phone call coming in. S hang on. Let me try Simon? Hello James Hi. Sorry about that Simon I don't know why we're not working here. One of these little buttons isn't working terribly well. Er can you hang on a minute Simon? Yeah sure . Okay okay just so I can't I need a couple more calls to finish off the programme and take a couple more records er O nine O four six four one six four one would you ring me. Just O nine O four six four one six four one. Anybody anybody in there erm there who's er just doesn't even know why they're ring that would be quite nice. Simon why are you calling? Well the other day somebody asked me to sign a petition about date rape Yep. you reminded me of that. They the petition said that there is no difference between rape and date rape. Mm. And er I was standing there I wasn't really sure whether I should sign it. Erm you know I thought thought but I'm not sure if there is a difference. I think there is a difference. I'm sure there's a difference. I'm sure there are there you know there's there is ordinary nasty horrid aggressive rape when you're you're you know like somebody's attacked from behind or something down a a dark alley. And then there is a different thing called date rape but there is no excuse for either I don't think. Well I'm not sure about that either. I mean certainly there's the horrid sort of thing that happens on date rape Mm. and you know with violence and that and then as you work your way along there'd be the sort of situation where there isn't any physical violence but there's intimidation and fear Yep. fear of violence and I think that's that's definitely out of order. And then you get you work your way along and you get to the situation where erm the woman is pressured by feelings of embarrassment or social pressure not to say no. And that's when I think it starts to get into into shady ground where where the woman hasn't actually said no because she feels intimidated not by violence but by social pressure. That's I mean that's maybe more the fault of society than it is the fault of the of the man that's involved. And then you get into the situations apparently where erm people decide after they've had sex Mm. that they didn't enjoy it and therefore it must have been rape cos they didn't wa they didn't like it. Erm and then I think you've you've clearly gone outside the definition of rape or outside you know a reasonable Yeah I would agree with that but I don't think there is er any excuse for a woman to or a man for that matter to say women deserve rape says M P's wife . Oh no I mean he's g he's gotta go hasn't he? I mean if if a woman undresses okay let's take a scenario okay Simon maybe er you know you could put yourself in the same situation All right. been out with a woman's erm undressed in front of you you know you've done the bit you've er you've managed to er within three easy steps undo the bra with one hand whilst er telling her you know you're a really nice guy and there's no chance of going too far and all that sort of thing and you know you get you get fairly carried away you may even be under the sheets Yeah. you may even and this is a bit I mean Saturday lunchtime is a bit I'm almost almost er oh the producer's going, Careful careful, which he should know is a red flag to a bull and I might say no but I won't. Er so maybe you're both even under the covers naked all right Mm mm. okay and then there're there're bits of your body that are are are you know your your your whole being is stirring Could be a bit hard to stop. It could be very hard to stop. Mm. So er as soon as the girl turns to you and says, Right I don't want to go any further that's it. Well it's it's annoying at that point. It's very annoying but that's when you have to stop . but you do have to stop but that isn't to say it isn't very annoying. Okay. But if you were to carry on and the woman was screaming no no no no get off get off get off, as far as I'm concerned that's rape. That is yeah. But I think there's some there's some grey areas in there. there are but I mean it's it's silly for people to say once a man is sexually aroused it's quite difficult to stop isn't it? Well it is difficult to stop. I'm I'm surprised they haven't got rid of cynics already actually Mm. Erm Well he's not in he's out today he's out he and his wife are out cos we put a phone call in we said let's have a chat with him We were just going to ask him about this proposed pay rise that's all. This thing that that er his wife said about some women deserve it Mm. Funnily enough though there are there are feminist women who are who are saying similar things that saying that it is a bit irresponsible to have gotten into bed with someone and taken all your clothes off and then say no. Yeah but But as you say you at that point you do have to stop. How many though how many men have and you remember, I can just remember, I mean just you know the the sort of, Well look er you know it doesn't mean I won't respect you and I don't love you and all that sort of thing. Er I'm not sure I share your experience there You see and er I mean er are you sure you don't want and er. We can be persuasive Mm. but there has to be a time when no is no. Just have to avoid being intimidated. Yes you're right. Simon thanks for calling. All right then. Bye. Bye. I don't know if I want to talk about this on a Saturday lunchtime I tell you Dan I mean it really is it's erm What are you doing? I've thought of something. Oh have you. What have you thought of? That silly judge who erm Oh. said that he's no angel do you remember that case ? Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah . He's done it again. Has he done it again? He hasn't still working. I'm I'm surprised at that hang on er we've got Mark on yellow what number is yellow twenty two. Hello Mark Hello. Hi where are you? In Scarborough. Okay hang on then Mark. Have you found it? Not yet. Okay well look for it. Yes Mark? I'm completely against Halloweening. You are? Yep. Well you must be one of the very few I would have thought Mark. Well I'm sick of it cos you see every year we get little kids coming round to our houses asking for trick or treat Yeah. and I live in a place where there's a lot of old people and they come round to us and they tell us they've been scared the night after Mm. they tell us how scared they are and I don't like listening to it I getting sick of it now. You don't like listening to who? Well the old people complain that they've been scared. Like we get big gangs of kids coming round. Why to they complain to you Mark? Well we're friendly with them all. Friendly with who? All the neighbours. Oh I see right. Yeah. Erm well we're just sick of them. We get loads of kids coming round big gangs of kids scaring everyone. I mean they do it just don't make an effort they just come round demanding money. Mm. Well the best thing is a bucket of cold water by the door. No I jest it's not a good idea. Erm yeah well there we are I mean I I you're just talking to somebody who's converted really Mark I mean I think it's a waste of time it's er it's a sort of pagan festival Yes. it's a copy of something in America. There's nothing worse than when you're at home you don't want people banging unannounced on the door saying trick or treat . Because I know what I'm going to say to any kids who have the audacity to come to my house which they won't but erm and I'm sure a lot of people do so the rest of the year we we're encouraging children not to approach strangers and everything else and then this one day of the year or maybe two days or maybe the whole run-up from now until November the fifth you've got kids begging on the street penny for the guy and all that sort of thing. Yes. It's just a mockery. It's a mockery. Disgusting. Well if they come round to ours this year I'll invite them in I'll take them to my basement and I'll lock 'em up for a few days. Well joking apart that's the sort of thing that could happen to kids and er you you know you wonder why parents let them out. Take 'em around somewhere like Michael Sands's house. Yeah we can't really turn him up he's fully up actually. Sorry I can't turn you up. Why is all that noise going on behind you ? Me? Cos I'm at Scarborough seafront. You're at Scarborough seafront. Yeah. In a phone box? No. Mobile phone. What? Selling ice-creams. Oh selling ice-creams Yes. Yeah is it busy there at the moment? Not bad. Cos it's pretty miserable outside isn't it customers waiting but there you go. Have you? Yeah. You give the phone to the next customer. Who's the next customer. Next customer's the lady waiting here. Let me talk to her. Do you want to talk to her? Yeah. Excuse me. Do you want to talk to James Whale on the radio? Who? Do you want to talk to him? He wants to talk to you. Don't you? No one wants to speak to you. Well make her speak. What did you tell her it was me for that's a putter-off for a start. Why didn't you just thrust the phone into her hand? They're all scared you know. Are they? Yep. Yeah. Are they they they your regular customers? Well not really. I see. And they know what you're doing at the moment do they whilst you're not serving them ice-cream . illicit phone calls. Oh you're make illicit phone calls. I've been listening to your programme all morning so. I see. I'll have to go. Okay watch how you go. Bye. Bye. Fancy telling them it's me no wonder it's going to put off. Er the judge who said an eight year old sex victim was no angel, you remember the one of course, yesterday freed two men who had intercourse with a thirteen year old. They he freed two men. Ian heard from police that the girl was more like Mandy Smith than the proverbial school girl and gave both men conditional discharges. He then told the court I had better not say she was an angel or no angel or the national press will have a hundred field days. She was a girl trying to find young men to satisfy her sexual desires. He added, I have to pass a sentence because it is against the law. It would be folly to pass a custodial sentence whatever the Court of Appeal may think. The seventy one year old judge caused uproar in June when he said an eight year old victim of a sex attack was not entirely an angel herself. He gave student Karl two years probation for attempted unlawful sexual intercourse. The Court of Appeal increased his sentence to four months jail yesterday. Judge Hill gave two year conditional discharges to Philip twenty one from Southampton and Keith nineteen of nearby Hythe for unlawful intercourse. Now I don't know because you know there's a photograph in that story of Mandy Smith as well and er Mandy Smith looked like Mandy Smith from about the age of fourteen. Erm any views? You might give us a call O nine O four six four one six four one. John is er on blue on blue on blue on blue twenty three John hello. Hello John? Hello John Good after good afternoon. Got you John yes John. Yes. Hi. Hello. Er you're on John. Yes. You're on the air John. Your turn John. Good afternoon. I beg your pardon John. Do you want to hear my opinions about er what we spoke about yesterday? Er you were on about ye I spoke yesterday about Halloween. Oh did you it wasn't me but yes go on you you feel free . Must have been somebody else. Okay well er there are seem one I mean is it worth it? You might as well children isn't it might as well go home. Yes John. Hello. Hello. What's going on? Haven't a clue John we're all mad aren't we? Well some of us. I'll take a lead from you. Anyway John you go on. Right. Yeah. You still there? Yes I'm here John. You all right? Good good good good. Right. I keep hearing funny noises Yes I do. Yes. Must be Halloween or Yeah. supposed to be Let me get that right again John you said you keep hearing funny noises. Yeah. that you silly Ooh! I lie in here. I don't know I don't know you should've Have you got your hands sort of tied up behind you in that sort of coat thing? I haven't got anything. Haven't you I have. Oh right. All right. Have we stopped playing er are we are we serious now? Are you serious? Yeah. Good that's all it needs is one of us to be serious and we're okay. Right. John. Hallow You're on the air yeah. Yes Halloween. Right you were talking about its affect on children Mm. and er I've discussed this before and I've come to the conclusion that these children who come along with Jehovah's Witnesses knocking on your door they're more affected than any child once a year practising whatever you like to call it Halloween or whatever. That was basically my argument. So excuse me for being a little thick. Yes. I didn't I what what d'ya mean? Well when the Jehovah's and the other religious cults come knocking at the door with their various pamphlet and trying to persuade you that their religion is better than others Yeah. they have these very young children with them Yeah. and er I think they're more affected by outside influences brainwash whatever you like to call it than one night a year of Halloween. Yeah well okay er possibly but er I think you're missing the point actually. I mean Halloween is it's a pagan ritual it's there to worship the devil it's the most poignant date in the calendar if you want to get into black magic if you want to dance naked round er a sheep's heart with sticks stuck through it. Hey hey I say all these kids are doing is walking round with a bloody turnip with a candle in it. They're not learning about religion where they don't believe in blood transfusions etcetera etcetera seven or eight year old. Yes but I think you know you have to give Go on. You have to give a little bit of er credibility there for people not being quite that dim don't you? Not quite that dim? Well I mean we we're not really er . If Jehovah's Witnesses come to the door Yes. you know what it's all about. Okay? You either let them in for two reasons. You let them in to have a laugh at them or you let them in because you want to listen to what they're saying. Okay? Yes. You cannot put that together with Halloween which basically is people going out thinking they're going out to have fun and they're having a bit of a laugh and everything else where's there's their underlying er connection with the devil. I don't think children realize it is a connection with the devil But isn't isn't that the most dangerous thing? No no I think the consistent and persistent influence in the children which some of these religious cults have I think that's more dangerous than one one two nights of a candle in a in a turnip or whatever. Yes but could they not be brainwashed if you like into thinking well there's nothing much wrong there isn't such a thing as evil No no. You don't think so ? evil isn't there? Well of course there's evil yeah. And I think pretend there isn't evil. Okay thank you for your call John. Okay. You enjoyed that didn't you? Be honest. Well Yeah be honest you enjoyed it . interesting talking to er A nut case I know exactly how you feel. Different opinions. Thank you John. Okay bye bye. Bye bye. Er right thank you John. Erm go back up here. Now we've got Sir Frederick erm I can't see the Sir Frederick Lawton retired senior judge on the phone. Sir Frederick good erm afternoon to you. Good afternoon. Er we really wanted to know what your view on erm Sir Nicholas Fairburn's outburst both in the Commons I suppose and er reported the outburst of his wife on the front page of the Daily Mirror today. Well I haven't seen that outburst but er I understand that he suggested Could I read it to you? Yes please . Sor let me read. First of all the headline says,Women deserve rape says M P's wife , and then the front page exclusive,Many women deserve to be raped a Tory M P's wife said yesterday. Sir Nicholas Fairburn's wife Sam backed her husband's astonishing views that there is no such crime as rape . Well that's absolute rubbish. I've had I think more experience of what a rape in court than Sir Nicholas. He may have had more experience outside court than I have because I've had none. But in court I have probably dealt with more rape cases than any other living lawyer. And my experience has been that virtually all rape cases have been the forcible interference with a woman. So why do you think Sir Nicholas and his wife have both come out and said something as ridiculous as this? They also go on to say that a lot of women deserve to be raped. Well that again is nonsense. There is unfortunately a theory around which is of long standing to that effect. I presided over a the Criminal Law Revision Committee when we reviewed the law relating to rape and we discovered that there was this myth that women asked for rape. It is a myth. Why in in that case do you think that Sir Nicholas and he he he's not stupid, I mean he's a career politician, he's come out and said this his wife has said that they're both smiling on the front page of the newspaper at the moment and they go on to say it's not fair on a man if a women undresses and then changes her mind. Well that may it may be unfair and until recently that kind of situation never came before the courts. There has unfortunately in my opinion been a change of attitude about which cases to prosecute Mm. and in some of these cases there ought not to be a prosecution. But that doesn't mean that the ordinary case is one in which the woman is in any way asking to be raped. Now Sir Frederick, recently the police have made great strides forward in encouraging women to come and report rape because until recently they didn't and they didn't want to they didn't want to face the shame and they didn't want to face everything else, Sir Nicholas and and again his wife which is the most worrying I think of this a women saying that that that women deserve to be raped, erm it's going to make women less likely to come forward isn't it? Well i I agree. But again I think it has been unfortunate er er that recently there have been a few cases in which it would have been better not to prosecute Mhm. but they are a minority of cases. In most cases that I've dealt with and I've f I repeat I've probably dealt with more than any other living person in court, er there has been a clear case of rape. Could I move on from that Sir Frederick just to ask you whilst you're on the phone your views on er the story in the Daily Mail today. Er Judge Ian I'm sure you'll be familiar with him he is the judge who I I know him personally. Right. Er he said or he's in a in a in a little trouble today for allowing two men who had sex of thirteen to go free erm a policeman told the judge that the thirteen year old was more like Mandy Smith than the proverbial school girl with pigtails but she was nevertheless thirteen and the judge said he had better not say she was no angel or the national press would have a hundred field days with him. Is there not some call on judges to be just a little a a little more respectful perhaps when they're they're dealing with cases like this rather than as flippant as he Well I I agree about that. I think that er Judge er 's remarks were a little unfortunate er but er he's now ret nearing retirement and occasionally all of us, I've done it myself Mm. in the past, make remarks which I regret. Er but the basis of what he had to say is presents a problem which do face judges in the class of case. Er unfortunately one has cases from time to time on girls of this age who set out to entice men. Er it's unfortunate that they should but when the men succumb to their er approaches then it's always a very difficult Mm. problem as to what to do about it. Well the men although they may not have realized they were thirteen must have been pretty stupid not to realize they were perhaps below consent age. Oh yes well I agree about that. But a great deal depends on the circumstances. I have experience of this class of case over a period of more than fifty years and it hasn't been uncommon in the past even in the days when judges took a more rigorous view than they cline er inclined to do nowadays not to punish er in any with a custodial Mm. sentence as men youngish men not older men youngish men who behave in this way. Now Judge as you you said you know er and erm Sir Frederick I know you're retired now, he's seventy one do you think there should be a mandatory retirement age for judges perhaps. That maybe they get to a certain time when they're going to be out of touch ? has it that it should be seventy from the future. Mm. It all depends on the judge. I mean I remember judges who were were er much younger than seventy who were beyond it. On the other hand I remember judges who were over seventy five. The most outstanding judge in my lifetime has been Lord Reed. Er he does he doesn't figure very much in the tabloids Yeah. because he he was so good that he never annoyed anybody by silly remarks. But he was well over eighty when he retired. Do you think we should have slightly younger judges. I mean there is the move to make people judges earlier than they have been recently? Well it depends upon what you mean by early. As Lord er the Lord Chief Justice said in a television programme Question Time er two nights ago it takes a good deal of experience before somebody's qualified to be a judge and when you do become a judge you have a great deal to learn. You know there was an old legal story er saying rather er that er in the first five years that a a j a man is appointed a judge he doesn't know the job. In the next five years he thinks he does but doesn't. And in the last five years he's too old to do it. That's worrying. I don't want to appear in front a judge in his first five years then . But that that's the problem that we all have This is one of the problems that the ju burdens that the judge has to bear. Did you in your time ever send a man to execution? No I I only tried three capital murder cases and all three they got acquitted. Were you were you glad about that? In two of them I was. Sir Frederick thank you for er speaking to me this afternoon. Thank you. Interesting talking to you bye bye Good bye. Okay er we move on over six seven minutes to go before the end of the programme. Let's talk to er Steve erm where are hang on just one moment whilst I find you. Hello Steve? Hello James Hi. Hello. Just er one final comment about this Halloween. Really with very few exceptions it's simply a bit of harmless fun. I mean let's face it That's always the worse thing isn't it whe the the most annoying this when it's harmless fun . Er yeah. Come into my parlour said the spider to the fly. Horror films. What's your comment about those? I mean Do you believe in devil? Television Do you believe in the devil? on children than any other media. I agree Steve I agree. Do you believe in the devil though? Do you believe that Halloween has any kind of place with the devil or not? No. You don't. I don't. Er then there is nothing I can say to change your mind. I mean you will you will go on merrily your own sweet way and erm I I hope nothing happens to sort of I mean we we we don't er we don't dance on sheep's hearts here in Gate Helmsley. Well I don't know because North Yorkshire's pretty sort of erm er pretty rife as far as black magic is concerned. Well you And d'ya know I I'm beginning to think you sort of protest so much that maybe you're a leader of a coven or something. Erm Put on the old sheep's head and dance naked round the bonfire. Is that right? Well no I'm not no I'm not. It's just that I mean this is the only thing about Halloween that I don't like is the import from America of this trick or treat nonsense. Yep. I don't like that one bit. But leave that to one side But that's only because it's an American idea that's the only reason you don't like it No no I I don't I don't like it er it er no I simply don't like it. I can't really tell you why it's just I don't like the don't like the idea of children going round er begging for treats, treats money whatever it might be. Yes I agree with you there. But I really to believe that Halloween does has no real influence. There are always exceptions you know to the rule. Okay Steve thank you for your call. You think it has no problem and er we'll squeeze in one more call before the end of the programme. And that's Christine from Harrogate hello Christine. Hello Christine speak to me . turn the radio off You what? You've got to turn the radio off. Have you turned the radio off? Come back to the phone Christine . Hello Christine. Hello. Hi. Hello. Hello. Erm I'm with you on this trick and er treat thing. Now I've heard people No you're not I'm not going trick or treating. say that they do this so they can get money for fireworks for Guy Fawkes night. Have you heard people say that? He's not answering. I am I don't know what there's a cut on this. What's where where's where's the where's the cut off come on this flipping phone? No it isn't It i hang on I can hear you. Hello can you hear? Yes. Is that better? Yeah. Okay right off you go. I well I agree with you on this er trick or treat. Erm people say they come round they come round with their children Mm. er mothers to g they say what they don't want treats as in sweets they want money to buy fireworks And he fixed it to buy fireworks for bonfire night. Yeah. And I disagree that they should. It's begging. You think it's begging. Yes. Yeah. Er I well I agree but I mean parents seem to be quite keen for their er their children to out and do it. Yes erm but it is begging and it is it is pagan. Yeah. So you won't be letting yours out? No. Okay. No. Okay Christine thank you for your call. Bye bye Bye. Erm I don't know whether we had gremlins in there or er or not in the end I really couldn't decide actually to be honest. Taking us to the news at two a little music for you and er hopefully I shall return next Saturday at twelve o'clock. Until then from all of us here on the Whales Show on B B C Radio York a very good afternoon to you. Bye bye. Oh did we play this we did didn't we. I didn't mean to play that at all. I think we played this one too. Did we play this one? No we didn't play this one did we? Cos the trouble with C Ds you see you can't see them going round you don't know which one you finished with. What? Yeah, what, I'm not there for you Oh it's a What shall we listen to after it's crap innit? What this song? Yeah Can we put erm New Kids no not New Kids, Wall of you know Yeah what not a lot Well I'll listen to right I had me hand in a bandage today, right? Why? Cos er, my, my grazes on my hand like Yeah and er, Miss I told Mrs that I can't write and she goes you'd better write dear she said you got a test, I said it's not my fault I've got a, a sore hand she, I goes Who said that? Mrs the maths teacher, I go sorry, but I won't do it I miss erm What you going to do, you going to do her postcard? I doubt it, he said he will, little he goes do you want a fan? I said no, I said I've got loads I and I teased them I said oh you can get me a big spanish doll Oh I've had these things Ooh, ooh, come on wild thing all around, all aboard all aboard wo oh, ooh, ooh Cor it's hot innit? Sweltering What you say? Sweltering You're what? Sweltering Oh come and see, Clare come and see What we doing? I bought you ah I've got the post oh my god What? it's flickering Oh, maybe cos it's Ooh, ooh, ooh Ooh, ooh, come on all around, all abroad, all ab I think he Ow, just hit me hand. Oh I know why it's because of the voice Yeah also known as So, was Debbie in school today? Yeah. Did she ask where I ask Oh god do you know what? Go on what? I went hospital with Lynn Lynn Yeah and she had a plaster on her arm, right Yeah and er Susan told me this morning, you won't say nothing to nobody Susan who? Yeah that Paula right and er, oh you never guess who goes round with Lynsey , Charlotte Yeah Yeah They had an argument on the bus and Paul , I think was starting the fighting, I think er, Lynsey was holding back or something and when I went to the hospital today there was this girl, right Yes she took an overdose and erm never came out and she was crying her eyes out and I told Susan like, but I told her not to say nothing to nobody and she goes, told Clare she never said I said anything and Susan goes to her oh you think you're right again, and I said yes She's always doing that ain't she? Yeah but this time they're saying it's a suicide It was last time Yeah, but this time it looked bad cor look at I yeah oh Growing What? Yeah, what time will you be home? Well we'll see What time is that? I don't know exactly Clare Alright OK? Yeah, ta ra Ah Clare doesn't she go tell your dad that she's gone? He's in Tired a mood, yeah No a good laugh, innit? No stay up here Yeah, he's watching a film I think What you putting on now Clare? Oh I love this, oh I took me coat off you don't mind do you? No Oh Clare turn it up will you, please? Yeah do this Yesterday do you mean? Yeah Yeah he was to go through this morning to get my project, no say me in trouble, I'm in deep, I don't know, ooh er, I can't see so how we all today? Alright I love that sound what a sound Who? radio, what a sound, mm mm mm of power I jumped off a cliff and I came back up again no, er, watch a bit of What do you mean? Why do you know? like that do they? how do you do it? Keep them in when? on the wall I had my leg up I think I've done something to it, Clare I can't stop start scratching it oh guess what? What? My mother went up to go and see and the new baby, remember when I told you about Andrew my cousin, my favourite cousin they reckoned I'd fancied him? Yeah They went to see him today, they never took me there's some more he keeps saying I love you all the time now oh he's the biggest hunk going Is he? I think I love Don't worry about it I hate his guts no What time they supposed to be due back, early? What you with that Clare can I have a drink of water please? That's it, just a drop I don't feel oh yeah, yeah, yeah, I've a bit of that little one a bit of gas, ooh, oh, hi as high as a kite radio, all oh my god is it? Alright oh hurry up Clare I'll have a G and T please Clare Oggy, oggy, oggy Oh, Oh, Oh come on play a record I love that sound, come on baby let's play around, radio, what a sound No I haven't got any water up Oh Oh pretty glowing Oh gin oh give me half a glass though, oh thank you Don't get too er, stoned Oh Clare What? listen to this right, er, oh how go now? Eh? This little song, hang on now Er ma, ma just killed man no, what? Oh Melissa I can't stop thinking about it Let me sing this song right What? ma, ma just killed man, I've no ready? Ma, ma just killed man, I've given him some Shut up What? You know what that means, well don't say it then He won't know He will Sorry He a blinking university Who is? university right Well I do no, this tape goes to goes to university right? Yeah They listen to it, and they don't give them a name they just say sixteen year old, sixteen year old girl, fifteen year old girl with a friend and they What? and what in that all the kids have been listening then they'd be taken up and put in that So Melissa you want to be famous What Clare No it famous Cowabongga dude I think there What? cowabongga Cool, yeah, er I'm a cool dude, he man I'm a cool and I'm the dude, oh Look Clare were you in the past Oh No Jean Claude Van Don I know Oh you're not finish minding that yes cor he's nice isn't he? No Yes, that's him, that's, that's his name is Claude Jean and he's a honky tonk man a blonk? Clare what did you say? Oh, what I, you know Michael Clare you know Yes I might go and see that. Michael and Kim seen that says she's crying. How old is Kim now? Nine you wanna, you got No I ain't got nothing up on the old fag there boy I don't smoke Alright There's Donald Duck at the door No I look, I gotta answer the door Oh get lost Oh alright then Alright I'll open the door to Donald Duck, hello What you doing? I'm having a fag He said and that's all I'm Out the way, get out the way, come on Go on then, hello what you want? Go away, I'll be back Right it's enough of that alright? Oh shut up Clare It's enough of that alright? don't you dare talk to me like that Clare, I've had enough Glowing Beaming Glowing Beaming Glowing Beaming No I'm not doing any because this supposed to be What do you mean doing any this is suppose to be serious and I'll taken this with me Oh Clare, Clare No I don't want to We're acting around Hi Deb Hey how you doing now? OK what's this I'm the one who wants to be with you What do you want? Eh? Oh just get out to enjoy myself What? shouldn't use that Yeah, ah go on then, ah ha, how long have I got now Clare? Cos I do, I'm leaving at ten to eight Eh? I'm leaving at ten to eight You've got precisely sixteen last, minutes twenty six minutes Oh, what we got we've got no gis a match gis a match Yeah, wait, wait alright Alright, alright, keep your hair on, like a I can't wait to go with, on Friday night you're hilarious you know sometimes in mine, when I'm in love, my no I don't Melissa take those things away Oh, but honestly when I'm in love, my face just lights up, just beams with joy, oh, oh no let there be light and my match has gone out but yeah what now with me, funny old girl, oh he's in Spain now No, he ran all the way from oh Do you know how long it took us? It must of been five well look but you see er up, guess what I done yesterday? What? Why wasn't you in registration or did I tell you about the blooming black board? I was there Well I were, I got the I was there and I blew I was there oh my god it's the incredible hulk oh and you know Jayne with the skirt up here, well in English study she was walking up the steps like this Well she always does darling She's nothing but a hussy, tart Hussy whore,whit a woo I do not like them Oh this is Billy Crocker or whatever his name is No, erm, what's his name, he's erm, Eric Clapton saw you in heaven, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh It's like going very well, shut up, why What does everybody get one? Yeah, haven't you got one? No Sure Adrian they're picking on me Have you got money for school tomorrow? Yeah, I'll have my one fifty there which I'll have to, which I'm going to take to town tomorrow night, because I took it out of my dad's pocket, what he gives me I give you one pound no I did not, yes I did, no you did not father you, you Norma So going to school tomorrow? Are you going to school tomorrow? Yeah, fine by me love is a hunger, it's burning me my soul . You know who you remind me of? No Clare Oh I do look a bit like her don't I? Yeah, but would you stop it? I don't know that Help you're hurting me I don't care But you're my friend Oh shut up, be quiet,love is a hunger love is a hunger OK you try to say yours My dad do you know what? What? do you know you're a maniac? Who? That woman on terminator She is ugly She's not I look at her Ya I do not look like her a little bit You don't No, no the, the ah, she's horrible I'm only joking, use that don't forget now Oh I wonder why ooh, ooh, ooh What? Yeah, what, I'm not there for you Oh it's a What shall we listen to after it's crap innit? What this song? Yeah Can we put erm New Kids no not New Kids, Wall of you know Yeah what not a lot Well I'll listen to right I had me hand in a bandage today, right? Why? Cos er, my, my grazes on my hand like Yeah and er, Miss I told Mrs that I can't write and she goes you'd better write dear she said you got a test, I said it's not my fault I've got a, a sore hand she, I goes Who said that? Mrs the maths teacher, I go sorry, but I won't do it I miss erm What you going to do, you going to do her postcard? I doubt it, he said he will, little he goes do you want a fan? I said no, I said I've got loads I and I teased them I said oh you can get me a big spanish doll Oh I've had these things Ooh, ooh, come on wild thing all around, all aboard all aboard wo oh, ooh, ooh Cor it's hot innit? Sweltering What you say? Sweltering You're what? Sweltering Oh come and see, Clare come and see What we doing? I bought you ah I've got the post oh my god What? it's flickering Oh, maybe cos it's Ooh, ooh, ooh Ooh, ooh, come on all around, all abroad, all ab I think he Ow, just hit me hand. Oh I know why it's because of the voice Yeah also known as So, was Debbie in school today? Yeah. Did she ask where I ask Oh god do you know what? Go on what? I went hospital with Lynn Lynn Yeah and she had a plaster on her arm, right Yeah and er Susan told me this morning, you won't say nothing to nobody Susan who? Yeah that Paula right and er, oh you never guess who goes round with Lynsey , Charlotte Yeah Yeah They had an argument on the bus and Paul , I think was starting the fighting, I think er, Lynsey was holding back or something and when I went to the hospital today there was this girl, right Yes she took an overdose and erm never came out and she was crying her eyes out and I told Susan like, but I told her not to say nothing to nobody and she goes, told Clare she never said I said anything and Susan goes to her oh you think you're right again, and I said yes She's always doing that ain't she? Yeah but this time they're saying it's a suicide It was last time Yeah, but this time it looked bad cor look at I yeah oh Growing What? Yeah, what time will you be home? Well we'll see What time is that? I don't know exactly Clare Alright O K? Yeah, ta ra Ah Clare doesn't she go tell your dad that she's gone? He's in Tired a mood, yeah No a good laugh, innit? No stay up here Yeah, he's watching a film I think What you putting on now Clare? Oh I love this, oh I took me coat off you don't mind do you? No Oh Clare turn it up will you, please? Yeah do this Yesterday do you mean? Yeah Yeah he was to go through this morning to get my project, no say me in trouble, I'm in deep, I don't know, ooh er, I can't see so how we all today? Alright I love that sound what a sound Who? radio, what a sound, mm mm mm of power I jumped off a cliff and I came back up again no, er, watch a bit of What do you mean? Why do you know? like that do they? how do you do it? Keep them in when? on the wall I had my leg up I think I've done something to it, Clare I can't stop start scratching it oh guess what? What? My mother went up to go and see and the new baby, remember when I told you about Andrew my cousin, my favourite cousin they reckoned I'd fancied him? Yeah They went to see him today, they never took me there's some more he keeps saying I love you all the time now oh he's the biggest hunk going Is he? I think I love Don't worry about it I hate his guts no What time they supposed to be due back, early? What you with that Clare can I have a drink of water please? That's it, just a drop I don't feel oh yeah, yeah, yeah, I've a bit of that little one a bit of gas, ooh, oh, hi as high as a kite radio, all oh my god is it? Alright oh hurry up Clare I'll have a G and T please Clare Oggy, oggy, oggy Oh, Oh, Oh come on play a record I love that sound, come on baby let's play around, radio, what a sound No I haven't got any water up Oh Oh pretty glowing Oh gin oh give me half a glass though, oh thank you Don't get too er, stoned Oh Clare What? listen to this right, er, oh how go now? Eh? This little song, hang on now Er ma, ma just killed man no, what? Oh Melissa I can't stop thinking about it Let me sing this song right What? ma, ma just killed man, I've no ready? Ma, ma just killed man, I've given him some Shut up What? You know what that means, well don't say it then He won't know He will Sorry He a blinking university Who is? university right Well I do no, this tape goes to goes to university right? Yeah They listen to it, and they don't give them a name they just say sixteen year old, sixteen year old girl, fifteen year old girl with a friend and they What? and what in that all the kids have been listening then they'd be taken up and put in that So Melissa you want to be famous What Clare No it famous Cowabunga dude I think there What? cowabunga Cool, yeah, er I'm a cool dude, he man I'm a cool and I'm the dude, oh Look Clare were you in the past Oh No Jean Claude Van Don I know Oh you're not finish minding that yes cor he's nice isn't he? No Yes, that's him, that's, that's his name is Claude Jean and he's a honky tonk man a blonk? Clare what did you say? Oh, what I, you know Michael Clare you know Yes I might go and see that. Michael and Kim seen that says she's crying. How old is Kim now? Nine you wanna, you got No I ain't got nothing up on the old fag there boy I don't smoke Alright There's Donald Duck at the door No I look, I gotta answer the door Oh get lost Oh alright then Alright I'll open the door to Donald Duck, hello What you doing? I'm having a fag He said and that's all I'm Out the way, get out the way, come on Go on then, hello what you want? Go away, I'll be back Right it's enough of that alright? Oh shut up Clare It's enough of that alright? don't you dare talk to me like that Clare, I've had enough Glowing Beaming Glowing Beaming Glowing Beaming No I'm not doing any because this supposed to be What do you mean doing any this is suppose to be serious and I'll taken this with me Oh Clare, Clare No I don't want to We're acting around Hi Deb Hey how you doing now? O K what's this I'm the one who wants to be with you What do you want? Eh? Oh just get out to enjoy myself What? shouldn't use that Yeah, ah go on then, ah ha, how long have I got now Clare? Cos I do, I'm leaving at ten to eight Eh? I'm leaving at ten to eight You've got precisely sixteen last, minutes twenty six minutes Oh, what we got we've got no gis a match gis a match Yeah, wait, wait alright Alright, alright, keep your hair on, like a I can't wait to go with, on Friday night you're hilarious you know sometimes in mine, when I'm in love, my no I don't Melissa take those things away Oh, but honestly when I'm in love, my face just lights up, just beams with joy, oh, oh no let there be light and my match has gone out but yeah what now with me, funny old girl, oh he's in Spain now No, he ran all the way from oh Do you know how long it took us? It must of been five well look but you see er up, guess what I done yesterday? What? Why wasn't you in registration or did I tell you about the blooming black board? I was there Well I were, I got the I was there and I blew I was there oh my god it's the incredible hulk oh and you know Jayne with the skirt up here, well in English study she was walking up the steps like this Well she always does darling She's nothing but a hussy, tart Hussy whore,whit a woo I do not like them Oh this is Billy Crocker or whatever his name is No, erm, what's his name, he's erm, Eric Clapton saw you in heaven, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh It's like going very well, shut up, why What does everybody get one? Yeah, haven't you got one? No Sure Adrian they're picking on me Have you got money for school tomorrow? Yeah, I'll have my one fifty there which I'll have to, which I'm going to take to town tomorrow night, because I took it out of my dad's pocket, what he gives me I give you one pound no I did not, yes I did, no you did not father you, you Norma So going to school tomorrow? Are you going to school tomorrow? Yeah, fine by me love is a hunger, it's burning me my soul . You know who you remind me of? No Clare Oh I do look a bit like her don't I? Yeah, but would you stop it? I don't know that Help you're hurting me I don't care But you're my friend Oh shut up, be quiet,love is a hunger love is a hunger O K you try to say yours My dad do you know what? What? do you know you're a maniac? Who? That woman on terminator She is ugly She's not I look at her Ya I do not look like her a little bit You don't No, no the, the ah, she's horrible I'm only joking, use that don't forget now Oh I wonder why ooh, ooh, ooh So you've got thirteen minutes twelve minutes innit? How long do you reckon it'll take me to What you've got to be home by ten to eight? Yeah Sure Yeah You got to be home by ten to eight or you leaving here at ten to eight? I love you so much, I just can't live without you Oh god stop it, you're embarrassing me you're glowing me I ain't doing nothing you're making me glow Yeah Oh Yeah Right Yeah I forget one of his books yesterday, and I went home and he clobbered me Oh any news? was here Any news? No Oh Guess what? What? I'm sitting on your bed. So what you do, what do you think I should do when I see Mary tomorrow? Give erm a right smack across the chops And what they will you take, give them a message from me will you? Yeah, what? Tell him to Don't free I'm not swearing, have I said a thing? No Ya, no Huh, are you going round tonight? No, cos I why have you got to be home so early then? Because I've got work to do Have you seen Sharon and today? I haven't seen nobody, why? What do you expect me to do, go out and throw a party? Yeah Yeah well Ah this is no Ah oh la, oh la, oh la, ee, oh Oh, do you know all of erm Freddy Mercury's song? Which one? yeah You sing it No, we've got to talk Ah come on We'll do it tomorrow, I've got twenty tapes here Clare I'm coming up tomorrow Well I bring, I was gonna bring it to school, yeah No you won't, cos it'll get nicked No it won't, in the bogs when we're having our two's up, right Yeah, yeah, but don't Mm, maybe, maybe in the back of yeah we can put it on after Yeah, yeah So you're gonna listen to my tape? No, cos they, cos they'll probably sue us Sue us I'll ask them, right? I'll ask them, cos we're not allowed to have anything private on here that we don't want Yeah eh she asked me to go over to John John er give her a call Yes tell her to hurry up Did she ask er, ask for me today? No No, No Oh, didn't anyone ask for me today? No Not even Mrs ? No Cheeky oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh language, mind what you ah, what she say? Where is Clare? I said she's not here Where is Clare? She's not here, no Oh, oh well Our new neighbour, guess what I done today? What? I been flat on my back so I didn't go toilets and I've got a sore bottom Glowing glowing, I couldn't stop them, straight across the floor, meoooww they were going there So what's you talking today then sh shock, it was a bit of a shock nor do I It's What? it's got a radio in here, did you know that, my golly god What? ya Do you listen to that? Ya What time you going? You better go in a minute love Ya I'll really miss you. Say yes here are love Not to loud Yeah I know, can you hear my voice in that? Yeah Good ain't it? Yeah You can hear your own voice as well can't you? Yeah Ah? I know you're recording it No we're not, I'm listening to some music I know you're recording it Thanks for your help We're not recording are we Clare? Oh you're really a pest Who? That girl who sat next to me What girl? That Jennifer yeah How can you say such a thing? Ah, she's a pest How can you say such a thing? Come here a minute Why? Come here put these on and listen to your voice, talk, talk Yes Good isn't it? Oh it's very good Say don't be long Which I've already explained where's that other cup and cheese We, we can listen to this at the table We, ah in school we all got, we all sing this song it goes Jennifer sat in the, Jennifer sat, sat in the shower, eating away She's broke er ear er, ear plugs, ain't she Kim? Yeah Should these come off? They do And, er, last night erm we made a song about the right, it's erm Yeah, she couldn't get them back on, it was that it, it in the interview right, we made up a song about it it's Jennifer sat in the shower, Alright Clare she didn't, she never bent to pick up a flower Can we have Hob Nobs ma? Yeah here we go Mm mm no It's not, it's just like a little bead, it's meant to be on it for that and No, you can do no they're not, not taken What? I know we're not helping, don't worry no we're not don't believe them Don't believe them They believe you It's a ah, it's a shame Remember I went into the dentist and then they sshh, I'll say, I'll say No, next Thursday are you going next Thursday? Yeah, me too And you Hello Kim, how are you? Alright, thank you You can, you can It's like Yeah it was, weren't it Kim? You'll I've just farted You mustn't swear on that We're not swearing Don't swear anyway Yeah, that's right Pardon I don't swear I know that I don't swear I, nor do I My goodness I've got the bigger styles of Maggie Thatcher No wonder that bloody floor didn't collapse when you said that Kim can you hear me? Yes Good What? hello Can you hear me? Good Geronimo no, no, no you're very quiet mum I know I know why Why? Cos she knows we're, That the clock? Yeah, what blackcurrant jam did you have to pay for it? Have you used it yet? Er? it looks like coffee have a listen What? Have a listen Can I sing a song on it? What? Sing a song No Kim don't touch Alright Clare don't get your head off Do you have to follow me everywhere? I wanted to sing you're not singing, no I see a Listen to yourself OK I see a body and I and dance, we are You can put it away now, before I get a headache Tasty Tasty? Yeah If that don't stop whistling I'll chuck it What? Er? What's this then, the microphone? Yes, don't touch it yeah Are we gonna give it to Sam? Sshh What? Are, hope you're not going to show this to anyone Yeah we've got to, we've got to give it to the university No swearing on it I'm not swearing Ah? What you doing? Shut up, I can hear you Mm? I never do it cos of you You never Nice jelly innit? from last week's You're a cheeky devil What she saying? Nothing What she saying? Kim Why you want to see Shut up before I punch you in the face What you mean does Like what? last week didn't she? Well it's the week before Kim That wasn't quite done was it? No What did we have last week Had custard and apple tart weren't it? And gateau Oh, and gateau then Yeah Roll on the summer how many tapes did they give you to do? twenty So you've got twen twenty of their tapes? Yeah I've only got three Have you? Are you sure Mm, lovely Mm wasn't bad, what er flavour was that then strawberry? Peach I think It's the wrong colour for peach No, you've been naughty turn it off mum You didn't call ah? Did it come last week? No Oh I'd hate to see them every day would you? Don't start me off That OK at the moment Did you that bloke with the beard that's working down your way now? What's his name? Eh? Is he short? Short fellow Short bloke is it? Yeah Where's the Oh, oh no, did you know her? No Er? Come piece of this Kim Have you? Yeah he's grown a beard ain't he? Is that mine? you on about Do you want a piece of this? Yeah Do you want a piece? Yeah That is Clare's Of your love for me What? That Want a piece of this? Yeah Would you like to talk? I want to Er, very big of her Ah I don't, I don't want a big bit A big piece you mean A big piece I want to Mm? in it? Yeah, sweet I eat that last, that's the best bit What? That That No that These are Is there? Yeah with our Christmas cracker No, she didn't bring one at all She did last night, but I didn't even catch her I'm not Who? Is it too hot I'm not Shut up Kim, it was alright like it was the first time No I didn't touch it not it's going off, on and off all the time I just yet On the bus Well I didn't I didn't use it with Well I didn't touch it didn't touch it Were on time Your friend is it? She did turn it Did she? There was no need for it Oh she did it then. There's no need for it, to, to move it, it was alright like it was I told her not to turn it I'm hot pardon me it was not me it was my tea You not put it the or anywhere Well I won't have enough time by Friday I've got homework to do every day I know yeah You shouldn't of had it really mm You rubbing out No I'm not wasting my time rubbing things out they're making a new diary and they want the new words on it No, not a new diary They're making a new dictionary and they want the new words on it Yeah, exactly We'll give them some new words Talk Aren't you gonna have a Hobnob? Mum, can you hear me No What about me? No, you've been naughty There's a good, there's this thing on B B C at half past nine isn't there? That ghost one Er? where they've got that ghost in the house Is that on today? Yeah I remember about that old man and woman One Foot in the Grave One Foot in the Grave I think it's on tonight, let me have a look Yeah, Jonathan said he watched it last week, One Foot in the Grave, what was it about It's not on tonight, no God it's only quarter past two, it has been a long day innit? It's not on at all, tonight May to December's on Yeah and on and another one called Screaming's on On Foot in the Grave isn't on? No Oh, oh B B C Yeah a new series Screaming's on Oh what are those sweeties that are in that Oh yeah What Listen, that'll do Fine Now other way Right Did you see Yeah, but did you last night Yeah What's this then? No No The troolls are funny ain't they? Mm? Trolls, not troolls You couldn't leave it alone, could she? I didn't see her She Who, what rugby player? Bill Curran Bill Curran Is he on then? Yeah You never Six months Oh That's why I tell you that Here, they're all stuck together haven't we? No Yeah we have didn't you? I had mine a week ago What? I had mine a week ago Where? In my hand Where is it now? Upstairs Oh I, with that one then Erm, they're gonna look the same Mm I've never had anything like that before they all look the same ma I've been, what colour have did you really what? I thought, I thought it was your are you gonna read the dictionary? they all look the same, so Yeah, they all look the same, they all look the same er, I didn't mean to that's on tape Clare I know I would love to hear that Kim shut your mouth Oh shit, oh Ah, ha, ha You don't that you say sometimes until, until I go home Get lost How long , how long does that take to run? Ninety minutes, forty five minutes each side You'll be all bloody day with it here one a day is it? Are you finished? How many did she say you could do she wants at least twenty four hours on one Twenty four hours on one tape? Oh don't be such a dickhead, there's only ninety minutes on tape Oh, oh, I no Oh, you know, I suppose come here No There must be Oh come on mum, your she, after this forty four, before, to fifty age group Remember that I have, what? if they have been, I might of have to done something No, because she had, she only needed a teenager left, she done the fifty to sixty age group Well why was she asking us then? She said down she wouldn't want two in the same house I'm sure Well she asked after you and she said with you I had to tell her how old you were, I said fifty, she didn't believe me Why? she said what? Eh? Said fifty when you were upstairs to daddy and she said how old's your father and I said fifty two Who's that then? The woman who give me this Oh What she think there was more did she? No le , oh ma Say there were less was she? Shut up, your Ah? She grab not really Turn that off will you? No I'm not gonna off, I can't hear it now I can, yeah Can didn't know they were coming up to stay Got that on the microphone but, ought does it? I'm thinking Oh, oh the way to reception, wedding reception mm I know I did Haven't got a clue I know what you're doing, I can tell by your face What? She farted if you come here you can I didn't like it I'd love some I didn't you're banned Oh god ask you Clare What? Can we listen to it after? No, we're listening to it now, how many times, I do another one Do another one, have you finished that one then? No, about thirty minutes? Thirteen? Ten Gosh you'll be she doing I would never she would Oh she said she'd give you a token didn't she? On what? She, she knows she's gonna give you a token I haven't had those sheets yet token? Yes Book token Money, give her money No I don't think she did You did, like who you were? Yeah, that's what she said What? if you become a good swimmer and fastest girl in the pool, yeah then get up to do somersaults on it see the bottom then You're not supposed to do somersaults are you? we had, we had to swim to the bottom and do like a handstand yes Well you did that, didn't you? Oh no well that's what I would like to say it myself, if, if she didn't practice when we're going in the world mm wanted to borrow my goggles and erm, she moan, when I, she was moaning cos me and Scott was gonna and erm in the swimming pool? No oh and when she was, when she, she to do it and she's no different towards with, when I go in and dive I do and then I do the it's much easy, it's very easy no, it's best to do a handstand, standing up Yeah clapping sounds louder Oh, it's been a long day today Yes covered them I went to bed at eleven o'clock I thought it was quarter past eight I can listen to the top forty tonight on radio ten You've been given the battery? I've got plenty upstairs, huh That's I know You can rub it off I'm not rubbing off yeah if there's nothing you want to keep on there you can rub it off Well I want to keep you rub the whole lot off Oh and what's that help gonna do me then? What do you want it for then? Cos they're making a new dia , dictionary and they want some new words new words I know that Ma, I, I, I haven't heard this name before now, it's a new name, have you heard this name? Sinaed Sinaed O'Connor Yeah and erm, what was the other one erm, I can't remember the other one what you gotta put on that last, that you know you've used it? Well there's one to twenty tapes and they're all numbered, you use number one tape, then Alright number two Oh, you're clever Why is this number one? Yeah, this is the second side of number one I know, I've only got gonna take till Friday are you gonna take it to school tomorrow? Yeah Oh And no swear words at school, please I know, we don't swear in school Oh only home, yeah, on the bus in the morning you should take it on in school, on the way to school No not in the mornings, everyone's tired in the mornings, it's at night we need it, at night on the bus, cos no one talks in the morning Well they don't they just sit there looking at I tell you what I made a printing machine on Friday and it works. Oh What has that got to do with er, this I don't mind what I'm saying What did you make that for? Well there's that, our, our, our project is on yeah, we went down to and choosing the hat we know? Pick out a hat it's, it's like a draw of names all, you put, everyone puts their name in and when they draw out it goes. I had a Bart Simpson, erm picture of him with and all Where you going? Toilet Have you I have not Dominoes I'm taking them back Electric was off last night was yours? Mm Oh dear Phorrr you hold on tight, no one but you, I never dreamt that I'll meet somebody like you, no I never dreamt Wahey Do you want to listen to what, what's just said? Yeah Right there's a good one down here What? blank, I'll give the E There's no D's left I'm, only when I like a D is that pardon me, ah pardon me no oh er, er Margaret Thatcher knocked at the door the other day Mark who? Margaret, Margaret Thatcher, she knocked on our door and actually came in, you wouldn't believe it she was talking like it Who was it then? Margaret Thatcher Don't be daft Shut up Kim, please no You two hours ago Hours? Well an hour it wasn't hours Have you No Oh Thought you'd given up. No. Yes you have why I don't swear Put these on while you're doing that, right go on and you good innit?good innit? Put it on your head you dickhead I am It's not it's down there I am , I always read like that Oh Oh god, oh my god it's weird I know what? Been fucking driving me You did it again I can't be bothered I can't finish twenty, I've got to finish twenty tapes I need enough of this, I've got a What did he say to you? Oh after you've finished Yeah well after I yeah well it was in the camera it was right and it's like watching the telly in a yeah Yeah carry on he told me to get lost What did you do? I said get lost too eh? Someone went Cor ah You can hear yourself breathing through here, it's weird Oh, you mummy Why's it gone quiet, I can't hear myself now, yes I can What, don't do that Turn it up dear no What was that? That was a Can I go and puff now? Oh my god it sounds weird, oh it goes right through me. Going bald are you? Clare I'm not deaf I just the bathroom and the bedroom and What? I've just hoovered the bathroom and the bedroom My god what are you on? Yeah Sharon just, was outside talking to me with Dora And they've just gone oh and Sharon said she got off with Carl Carl Carl, Anthony's brother Anthony's brother Yeah You mean Gavin? No Carl, Carl's his other brother it is Carl, have you, it is Carl, can you hear yourself? Can you hear yourself? Ah, no, I can't, is it in properly? You can't hear yourself Ah, oh, yeah Now look, I think, I think he's got another brother called Carl A younger brother, yes Oh Gavin's is older, er is, second oldest yeah and Thomas is the other one Yeah but the littlest one yeah, but she got off with him Clare he's only about five Oh who's Carl then? I I reckon it's one of those boys from the army camp, remember I heard her talking about a Carl from the army camp yes I can hear you, yeah Oh I can hear myself now, can you hear me now? Yes It's gone again cos you're moving the microphone I can hear it a little bit, wow, oh, I heard that You can't hear me can you? Yes, er yes I can No What then? this one the one we did before Oh alright then, what do you think I'm a pig? Just a little bit You have to do that physically I'm gonna creep Do you? But I think it's all Clare can you put this thing up here please? Yeah You who, testing, testing, one, two, three, you who, you, yeah I can hear myself That's better that's it, stick, stick it there now Yeah thank you darling, oh, you know the pot I made you? Yeah It's nearly done Oh good, I can't wait to have that What you like it? Yeah You honestly like it? I do I that What? when you open your mouth, Clare oh don't, horrible that is You have a go No where's that fucking Language I don't care, did I just take a carton of that? Honest to god No you never I'm cracking up Gavin who? He phoned you? I phoned him Why? I phoned, I phoned I always do that I know what Gary's like, he's a stirrer Yeah but, he's best friend and, I, he, he Gavin can be alright sometimes Yeah but when he's with his mates, that's it, he thinks he's I know he's horrible to maybe because Gavin's scared of him Mm, but he's a good laugh though. What's the time, fifteenth of the third, ninety two The time? The date love What were you doing during the conversation? Talking Yeah, well that's sitting down Relaxing in the bedroom Mm, mm, no it sounds too horny Shut up Sorry Pardon me, I couldn't help it Clare stop burping girl Relaxing in bedroom having a chinwag Just a little bit, dong, dong, did Kim have a go on this? Yeah Ah, can we listen to it after? it's boring Oh it's boring you Welsh girl How much did you pay for your jacket Clare? Eighty quid, eighty nine quid both, both got pattern inside Yeah it's nice right, what relation are you to me? You're my friend Yeah Don't What, I'm only whistling How old are you? Sixteen, I'll be seventeen this year, oh god I'm getting old Yeah Charming I'm leaving at eight o'clock Are you? Yeah, gonna miss me? No Charming I'll go and have a bath then I won't see Gareth for another week now Have you had a postcard yet? No, know what he can do with it you'll have to hoover up here in a minute Clare, get all this tobacco off, I'm only joking, girl what is this stuff on the floor Clare? That brown stuff, have you been shaving your legs again? shut up don't need to shave mine, can't see my legs That's true Oh cheeky Charming Charming Let me have a listen of that No in a minute You'll be going in a minute So? Let me have a listen and I can tape myself can I? Yeah What? for god Karen's boyfriend, god oh I can't get over that, I've gotta see him, is he down there now? No he's gone now oh in a minute, in a minute No now Alright let me listen ow Just a little bit So, describe, describe him He's tall, muscly, dark hair and Welsh He's Welsh is he? Oh you know how I'll smack your hind woman Your hind head No love, it's on my back you cook head who's to be erm what's his He's a porter in the hospital Ah he must be dopey then Ah, ah, and he works in the morgue Whey, hey, happy days are here again wo, ho, ho, she'll look after the I reckon, she was erm oh who's this then? Who's, who's Carol? Is she that daughter or the mother? Oh yes the mother's about sixty Do you want to listen? do you want to listen? OK, would you get this tag off That? That's right then Do you want to listen? No Why not? I'm going now so, what you gonna do I'm gonna have a orgy or a to have a good time, fifty quid an hour you better not have that tape working, is it on? Yeah You stupid old fogey yeah well er no and that Jack doesn't know that you know Do you know what my name is? What? Vera Duckworth, Vera Duckworth Do you know something else, we had a blind date with her and I met this gorgeous boy called Steven and I said oh darling where'd you come from, where Listen to yourself in that, it's good Well I said love, it's a greater day, my name Cilla Black here hello darling, how you doing? I'm a great big Clare can I sing that do you dare me to? Do you dare me to? No Oh no Go on Right, ready You hold it because you're talking you've got to go in a minute love What do I give a monkey's, do I? What do I What? OK Yeah don't forget the you see, ooh Clare you're a naughty girl Ooh Clare you're a naughty girl Sshh, oh it was, my window is open, if, who stands at my window, they'll think we're mad here No problem It's no one there, she whistles, it was a gate shutting next door Mm it was a gate shutting next door, what you say? My man No, no how'd you start off? it doesn't start off like that What, it does Ma, ma just killed a man, I was given him some Ah, don't sing that, sing it properly You said I could , no way I'm not singing that they don't know what I'm on about Melissa Clare go on Oh Melissa I'm guess what I was watching down there, ah P O R K Y S Porky's Alright, have you seen Have you been screwing that alright have you seen, oh, have you got, don't tell me, something, something coat, my coat have you seen my coat anywhere? No, sorry love I'm not a lesbian Ah Did he have a big balloon in his belly? Well, no, he had it struck over his head mind you Oh yeah who was watching that with? Well I was watching that with Steven No word No word of a lie, or and the best part was when he stuck his tongue through the hole and they put soap on it and he Oh yeah and he stuck his dingaling through and the woman grabbed it and she put his foot against the wall and started stretching it, and he's going aaagh I've seen it and that and is oh sugar plum I forgot, I got carried away sorry about that missus I forgot this erm microphone was on, sorry students, I am very, very sorry, please forgive me, please forgive me They must think I was drunk, do you know what? What? Do you know when I went to Gareth's house and er, he had a you know a house warming party and I was drunk, I think something happened I don't want to hear about it, tell me another time Well I'd like to say goodbye, cos Charlie's coming now, bye then, it's princess Diana, and you know what, I'm a stuck up old woman,oh Willie stop playing with those now Da, da, da, da, da, hello I'm Marie Kelly, welcome to T V AM, where excuse me Mike I'm trying to say something Well today, poll tax has now gone up one pound, but for the old fogies it's gone down one pound over to you Mike Er, hello there, my name's Mike, well let's go over to the weather with Winsy, no Winsy, oh Rita's dropped dead, she's jumped off a cliff we think, we think and now we'll go over to Winsy. Hello my name's Winsy insy spider climb up the spout, down came the rain and washed Winsy out, when the sun came out it dried up the rain, insy, winsy spider climbed up again thank you, oh thank you, oh thank you, I know, thank you, well, today, at midday today it's going to be tipping down with rain and winsy, winsy, winsy, spider will fall down the rain, Melissa Er, oh, right, on toni , tonight we're gonna have sun and maybe a bit of snow and tomorrow morning we're gonna have a full moon oh you're but he was quite well alright then Do you mind, I'm trying to do a programme here, and how the hell can I do it, with your gob slapping? Thank you Oh you dickhead Oy, right then today, we have got Melanie of Neighbours here with us oh my god other day and I told this lady and she goes, who the hell are you? Who the hell are you? Well I said what you looking at you skinny thing, and she just, how dare you speak to me like that, and I just who the hell you looking at you ugly thing , I'm going to Espania tomorrow, cos I'm going holiday to El Spania,right then what you doing you sexy woman? Thank you your wife is over there, don't you talked to her like that who the hell you think you are I've got a good mind to put your beard right in this food and he said came up to me and he did, do you want a game of footy, I said oh sorry about that love, well I'll go and I tore this paper and I said if you're gonna have a wee wee then do it wee on me, so I said, up your all over the place and then I went out oh stink bomb, oh, come over here, who want a football, ah, want a game of footy, alright then er man in the goal man oh look like that he's a football player as well, not him, not are you doing, making it as he's kicking the ball, come on then, now, get in the goal, come on then in the goal, yes, yes, yes, yes, and then they went home and and there's this woman called Lassie, and this, this other man was talking to er this other man and he goes why'd you call that woman Lassie? Well if you take her upstairs find out, he says, alright then, so he took her up the room, and all you could hear was Melissa and she goes I've had enough questions for one day, I said it plenty of times she said oh shut up you wee wally you think you oh who, hiya I come from Australia, yeah, you know oh my god I think a early goodbye now Winny, well that's the end of the news, we now must go over to gender bender the cartoon, gender bender, bom, bom, bom, gender bender What is that? Oh well goodbye, see you tomorrow at six AM, well goodbye from me and goodbye from him, and ta ra too yeah I had of done. Look like an old fashioned woman and it's over like that Robin Hood ooh Robin Hood Anybody talk about me today? Yeah Anybody else? Oh Sharon said that, told the about er, that you were ill today Oh yeah this morning she said Oh god, you look like you've up in the, from the future with a, the pink make up one, but this woman's got a green one Only I slip that round your neck Yeah What colour is it this time? Copper, same as before Who did it? Me it won't come out red cos I've got brown hair it'll just come out sort of I'm put, I'm putting this red in it on Saturday and Saturday, you should do it Friday night Friday night What is that? That's my new top Oh you put that yes, I was So on Friday he won't be coming home Yeah, Saturday I'm seeing her Oh right and you see a I forget, I forget oh did I? Oh I forgot to put blanket on What an electric blanket? Yeah yeah Doesn't your mum check, see if you've put it on my dad puts them to bed Oh we're gonna have fuck all and Oh, ain't you forgetting something She's a creep ain't she? Ah? Do you realise that, when Lisa has it right Has what? That flute What flute? It's in a black case right? Yeah When I have to hold it, when she's hold it, it was a big white sticker on the top, right Yeah and she was looking down at it, right Yeah cos it was a fake, she told you, when Marilyn was looking at it, she the sticker was at the bottom, and there was nothing at the top and she, and she was still looking down at it, in other words there was nothing in it before Mm Hey enjoy ain't he? Revolting ah I was watching today Yeah it was good cor he's nice Oh and, oh Simon Yeah I know, I've, no I've lost the What? lost the what's that? She's a bit chubby on the face like That's her jaws innit? Oh they slept in the caravan together he didn't complain then Oh my god ever since you've had that place yeah look at those timetables, everybody exactly the same Yeah, I guess it no I mean, this, the paper is the same and you Where'd you get yours from? I don't think you can get one now How Have you signed this thing in Mrs room? You're supposed to of signed it and to, to let you know when your if you haven't signed it, I don't think you can do it Yeah, cos in the diner, they said er what have we missed, when she grew up all on her own Yeah, but in the paper it says look, Marilyn finds out about a couple of phonies A couple of what? Phonies What's that? Forgeries Oh Here are ta These readers, are just books are very good aren't they? Yeah What you like about them? Well as I say, there's a wide variety of contents. Does it? I like the letters, do you? I haven't seen them they're advertising Oh there's letters here very good The jokes are like, like that, those Yeah can you see that better there? Let's have a look What? Have you read it? No what he took the sewing machine I haven't read it yet I'll turn this down oh remind over in the cold, do business last winter with matching jean and shorts I told my with, they must get hold of a new windscreen before going home Oh look Just Good Friends. Who? Just Good Friends Is that on now? Yeah Oh we'll look, we'll listen to that then, shall we? We'll look at it Oh Have you got that paper? writing Er, don't speak too loud now Pardon? no, I'm not that ignorant could of been, it's so funny isn't it? No I, I've gotta go now No don't put it there Oh dear, dear Perhaps now, I think I'll put the kettle on Yeah, let's have a nice cup of tea Can you hear me? what? Can you hear me? Yeah, I can't hear the telly though That's alright then, you want me to put it on here? Shall I put it on then? Mum , shall I put it on? Yeah If you want oh god I thought you were gonna hit the glass as well then. Oh god you didn't did you? Thanks, it's best if you point it at the telly Go on then, it don't bloody work Is that better? I think I'll sue you Turn it down a bit I'm expecting a phone call in a minute, but I think I'll have one. Turn the telly down mum. I can't hear it if it's any lower Put the words on then Oh dear Can't wait till Saturday, have a rave ma Yeah that's all you want is a rave up innit? Do you know what rave is? Yeah What? A rave, yeah, I know what a rave is Music Yeah that's all I want You can have one here Ah, ma I still don't know where this party is darling In this boy's house Yeah and where is the boy's house? In by Aysha's I think Where in Aysha, no Where does she live? I went up her house last night, it's I dunno how, how I got through, the long way Oh a long way is it? We took the long way, on the way back to the bus stop I, the new bus stop to the house, is by that er, by the dentist, you know that bus stop there? My dentist, not the bus stop up the top but the one in, lower down, do you know which one? By the yeah, there It would be nearer what? It would be near enough for you Yeah, it'll be near enough, and I won't need this, cos me mother's taking me home Was that me? Sunday I'm staying the night at house Oh, and another girl? No, just me Oh, yeah Leanne's staying tonight cos she's been chucked out of her house Oh that's the sort of people they are then are they, taken on waifs and strays are they? No She shouldn't be allowed to stay there if, how old is this girl that's been chucked out of the house? Fifteen And she's been chucked out of the house? Well so she said Yeah, and what's her name? Leanne Leanne who? What? no don't you believe me or what? okay then my heart You haven't got a bloody heart I know, no Oh, who's that? Oh, if that girl's been chucked out of her house, she's been there then all the week then? No she's only staying tonight and they think, they just phoned me up then and they were on the square, I think she's going home phorr what's that smell, it stinks what? Was daddy on the phone? Daddy on the phone? No hi Bill he's going out mum Eh? That bloody him innit? He said he was gonna ring you later Eh? Ta Then why the hell didn't he knock on the door? What's going on? Eh? see that, see that boy dropped the blocks off over there Concrete blocks Didn't you say her house was , didn't you say hers was falling down? No, thought the house was falling down How many sugars do you take these days? Eh? This bench is not straight, anything you put on it seems to wobble What? Cos I'm clever than you Ma, will you write me a letter tomorrow to go down town to look at some clothes What for? What in your dinner hour? In your dinner hour, is it? No not in your school time sorry that could become a Ah, god Who's that, someone at the door give me that Kim was commander, training, sergeant major informed us that we'll would be departing by airport that afternoon, I can't keep my eyes awake, when we asked for he grinned and he looked at me and said dismal days ha, ha, ha Hello, what you laughing at? What's happened? What? Probably, probably the best lager in the world that's what I feel like now, is, is there any cornflakes in the cupboard? Yeah I've got a toothache hello cease her give way wow, ma what? Don't talk oh I'm lazy Oh, I'm watching this on telly now Oh, no I'll probably I today then mm Where'd you get that spray from? Eh? Is this the wine that you brought? Where d'ya get that? Hawk something Yep. New Zealand. Mm mm! Excuse me, who's that making that noise? Mm? Oh look at Nankypoo He's got his tongue hanging out. I know , and he always sleeps like that. Does he? Mm mm. Michael this is lovely . You're not planning on having ? But that's awful that you've done But everything. . Well it is awful, I agree, but Well, just stay there then. Do you twos do the cooking rather than go out. Well it depends Yeah? Oh Sonny, she bought those.. God! Oh. Rachel I asked you to take the glasses through. That's alright. Yeah, that was a bit under the belt . Yeah . I need another coat hanger. Yep. I know. See what I have to put up with? Sorry? Do you see what I have to put up with? Who? Anne-Marie. It'll all be changing when she owns her flat. Interesting. We'll have to knuckle down a bit won't we se Rachel? Now It was so about ready are we? Mhm. Is that what you missed? Come and do it. Okay? And dog in? Right, put the top Here. light on. Well I don't need it. Do you need it? No. Ah, it's a shame to, you know. Mm. It's more romantic I think. Now is that ? Swallows the atmosphere. I think it's the candlestick. They don't give off so much light though do they? No. Purely decorative. But I think . Oh right. We have paper ones. Mm mm. But might ignite. We'll be no, no, they don't ignite because the candle is inside the shape of the candle shape holder that they're more translucent. Right. I think, but though we've also got some nice glass Thank you. Another grey one there. Er, I'm sure we didn't put a brush through my hair in the bath. They're lovely, like laser beams. Oh! How lovely. Yeah. Ah. Bon appetit. That's the wine today. No Yes. Isn't it nice? I don't know. We haven't tried it yet. Glass Gearoid. Cheers then chaps! Cheers. So long as you wait, I think you've been doing this all day. Yes, cheers. Thank you very much . Thanks for a lovely Super day! super weekend! Thank you. Thank you both for having us. Yes, thank you. Are you leaving? I love this wine. Mm mm. It is very nice isn't it? It's lovely. Hawk I've never tried it before Michael. Well I won't be driving anywhere tonight. I think I'm twiddled after that gin and Martini. It's oak it's been matured in . Oh that's okay. Mm! Delicious! Beautiful dishes. Mm mm! Ma , Patrick and I were walking the dog What's this? It's not Pickled , pickled ginger. Pickled ginger. Yes, but I thought Do you eat ginger? it was ginger, well Do you eat ginger. Oh gosh this is absolutely Wonderful! lovely! Mm mm! I've never had it before. Mm mm. Pick pickled ginger. I think ginger and melon is delicious. Mm mm. That is beautiful! Cos I thought it was ma , I thought it was erm a ham or something. Mm mm. It's lovely! Have you noticed her melon-baller Oh yes, she did. I went through everything with her. She was delighted with it. Mm. Oh did you give her a me a melon baller? We gave her one as well, yeah. Mm. Cos we have one. Oh very yum, yum. So They surely sell them in Dublin though do they? I haven't seen them. I'm sure they do, it's just Mm mm. you know, it's one of those things Yeah. you never think to pick it up for yourself. Mm. No, exactly. You brought a zester didn't you, for Molly? Mm. I think they're a good idea. Mm mm! Gosh this pickled ginger's delicious! Gorgeous! I'm hooked on ginger. Tastes like lime. Yeah. Chris discovered it at Blakes. Really? Really? first of all. So what, what can you do with it? I mean Just have a bit bit with cold meat cold meat roast chicken Yep. pork Mm mm! Molly would love it. So, I can have Yes. And Mikey likes ginger as well Mm mm. doesn't he? Does your mother like ginger? Mm mm. I must give you one and take it for her. And Michael es , and Michael especially. Mm mm. But Cos I do chicken with ginger which Th is really nice. Chicken, ginger Oh do you? and cashew nuts. Oh! You haven't given that to me. With root ginger or powdered ginger. It's root ginger. It's delicious! Very strong. Cos it's very subtle. But it's in a Oh I packet is it? It's actually very subtle. Mhm. It's delicious. So many people when they eat it, they can't actually decipher what it has, you know what it is, that it is ginger. Yes. It's very subtle. I think Margaret doesn't understand the word subtle. Cos she takes about two pounds of root ginger peels it Really? and chops it and puts it with a pound of Philadelphia cheese into the cavity of the chicken outside it's just lightly rubbed with oil Mm mm. and then about two ounces of powdered ginger sprinkled over it. Two ounces as well as all the ginger? And puts it into roast in the oven, and takes it out after fifty minutes and then you get Philadelphia cheese and white wine melt it down in the wine Mm mm! stirring a bit more you know, crushed root ginger Mm mm. and that's your sauce to serve on the side. I tell, you've never eaten anything like it! Is it nice? I could eat the tail. Really? It's gorgeous. But i , I keep saying to Michael it's so expensive! I mean root ginger's like a pound a pound, or two pound a pound. No, not really. It's not, it's not as expensive as it used to be. It's got more and more popular strangely enough. But she does ginger tea. Oops. So do I? Oh I haven't drunk ginger tea before. Well I'll make you ginger tea. Well we never tried that before. But that's sounds what, can I just ask again, so you have a roast chicken yo , and you mix two A pound of Philadelphia cheese. Yeah. But she does about two pound of root ginger. Most normal people would have half a pound at the most. That's two good roots. You crush it or do you chop Two whole, bash it. it up? Bash it? Bash, bash. Yeah. And you put that, mix that in Mix in. with the Philadelphia Into the cavity. Right. And yo then after and then fifty minutes oil it, oil It's the outside as if it's full Yeah. and moist. Put the ground, with the the ground ginger the the Mhm. you know, the powdered stuff. Philadelphia cheese cooked in and Cheese and everything inside. keeping the whole chicken . Mm. Mm. And then roast it. And then after fifty minutes you do the melt the She, well she cooks her chicken for only fifteen minutes, but I would cook my chicken Oh. longer. Yeah. Are we talking about a roast, a whole chicken? A ro , a whole chicken. Mm. Fifteen minutes? Fifty. Fifty. Oh fifty. That's still pretty short Mm. It isn't it? it's about an hour and a half to cook a chicken. But Mm. you could cook, you could cook it for longer with that inside couldn't you? Fifty, fifty and I wouldn't want to eat it. Right. Couldn't you? It's very moist. I don't like overcooked chicken. I like it But that'd be pink? Do you like it pink? So , surely Mm. yeah, it'll still be pink. I thought you had to be quite careful with chicken. Well, you're not gonna be Well we only ever use Marks and Spencers free range chicken. We we used to have these in Dublin didn't we? Can we give this dog Yeah. some chickens? Oh don't! I'll have to try that one in, in Dublin, tell Molly I've been. That sounds wonderful! It's still a good thing to try. Yeah, we do a well of course we,we used to make contact with who, were having a dinner party that we went to. That's why we do all our entertaining one at a time. Why do you only use Marks and Spencers' chickens. Sheila says they're the best in England. Really? She won't have anything else in the hotel. If there's a chicken dish in the hotel chickens don't come from our suppliers, they come from Marks and Spencers. Do Marks and Spencers So you just freeze them do you? obviously you get them then from in bulk from I just . No. What you just go to the supermarkets and buy a whole of chickens? Mhm. Really? That's our extravagance. Excuse me, er, for a moment. Mm. Well she thinks they're far superior to anybody Can I help you? else's. Yeah. The napkins Mm mm! are napkins that we've been buying in antique fairs. Have you? Are they really? Mm. Yeah. They were wonderful! So you probably think I think they starch them though. Oh well I have them ordered. Mm. We have them ordered. Are they nice? They are beautiful! Yeah. They really are lovely. We got about a hundred napkins upstairs . Really? Yeah. The napkins to well cheaper than buying new ones isn't it? Mm mm! Yes. Mm. You get them for two pounds fifty. Four pounds. Five pounds each. They're wonderful aren't they? You go to Peter and pay that for an ordinary Mm mm. Oh yeah. what d'ya call it, kind of Mm. I just thought that was absolutely delicious! Dave has a gorgeous recipe for erm Teriyaki beef. On the menu of Biggs. Oh what's Really? that? She puts the pickled ginger on one side and another, like a Japanese horseradish called Wasabe which is green don't try it, it'll blow your head off! Really? Oh yeah. And th , the, the sort of steak is then it's er cooked like soya sauce Oh yeah. and marinated Mm mm! then it's served in strips. Just delicious! Is, is it expensive to eat Biggs? Really? Mm. Oh I was just thinking, it'd be nice to go there. I didn't think it would be The starters are about nine pounds to in at thirty five for caviar. Really? Main courses are about eighteen to twenty eight. And the puddings make about sixty pounds. So it's sixty pounds each Mm. then? Yeah. And that's for the Plus your booze. Yeah. Mm. And is the drink very expensive? Ya. Her mark-up is about so what I normally do, she has never ever told me to pay for anything. And she says go and have a meal Oh yeah. then Yeah. you know, and if anybody else does, they do but I always insist on paying for my drinks. Yeah. And Thank you. Which one? she obviously didn't know this for a long time and then one day I said to her, well, it was lovely meal and all that but I do think your mark-up on the wine is scandalous! What did she say? Of course I get a staff discount. Really? She says well I know, and you know that that bottle of wine costs Mm mm. ten ninety five and, and we had two bottles last night so it costs us sixty pounds. Well done Michael. Who's making Gearoid pay? Nobody makes me pay for it, I always pay for my drinks. Really? So it was murder! Really? I said I would never go back again I'll help you Michael. No, I'll, I'll do it, it's okay. I'm all under control Are you sure? now. She wouldn't let me pay for it. Really? So fair to say, the staff are depending on their tips to supplement their salary Yeah. so if I don't pay anything Yeah. they've lost that Yes. Right. ability of earning that money Yeah. , so You can't leave a tip regardless? Well , Michael always leaves a tip. Mm. But what we've done now they've agreed to let me pay and I pay cost price for the drinks. Right. So we can drink ourselves silly and get a bill for about ten pounds. And all that wonderful food! Oh that's very good isn't it? I'm looking forward to the sweet I must Mm. say. Mm. Thank you for dinner. Maybe Thursday. Have you got a busy week now Michael? Well Tuesday is my busiest day. I'm getting What? some more in. Oh really? Yeah. That's alright. Cos they're around then? Yeah. And how long are yours away for? Too long. Monday morning, four A M they landed. Oh! So you'll have a an awful week then as usual? Well I'm hoping I'm going to have a nice week but it Mavis , my housekeeper's away until Wednesday so I can't leave the house during the day. Oh right. Because the morning maid goes home at one o'clock and doesn't come back again until six. the gardener comes. Yes. I can't just go off and have a look for somebody or Mm mm. go wandering down the high street can I? Or whatever. No. Mm mm. So Wednesday, Thursday, and Friday I fully intend to . Cos I never ever have time off. I know, you said before you hardly miss a lunch. Never. Which is crazy! I mean, I really do resent it sometimes. I'm not surprised. Yes. Cos it's dark in the morning when I go into work and it's dark when I'm going home in the evenings. It's getting a bit ridiculous! It's getting . And does provide food for you to have? Occasionally. I mean, at the moment there's no housekeeper so unless I actually say to the maid will you just put something in the oven for me? That's it. That's appalling though! And on , on erm Thursday Thursday evening before they were going out to Mark she came home at just about half one. She came and made me a ham sandwich and the maid just look at her to eat it now. Brilliant! There really was not a scrap of . That's awful! Because the housekeeper sorts all that out, so when she's away no one does it? But she bought all these things for me from Marks and Spencers, you know breaded chicken and Mm mm. Mm. breasts. Yeah. I put them all in the deep freeze. Unless you think about it, you know the day before or the Yeah Yeah. morning you come in. But surely you can just defrost it in the microwave? She doesn't have a microwave. Does she not? Why doesn't she use a She doesn't like them. microwave? Doesn't like them. But she bought you one. She get you one. That was quite funny because it was our first Christmas down there and I was saying to the housekeeper that I I wouldn't mind having people come and stay and not a problem because we've got a lovely cooker and we're going to bring our microwave down from . Said it's electric, I'm just going to unplug it and bring it down and put it on the work top. The only thing is that it's chocolate brown and my kitchen's all white. And she did and so I think two days before Christmas Lady said to me, okay I shall go into Peter and choose whatever microwave you want. Just charge it to my account. That's right. What? She said well you can't be carrying microwaves around England every time you want to have a meal. And just, I know that's what, you haven't got one in the cottage and there you are, go and get it. She's so generous isn't she? Yeah. There was no kind of pricing mentioned. I went to Peter and looked at, you know, little ones, and huge ones Oh yeah. and things that did that thing and washing up and all the rest and I thought what am I going to do? Mm mm. Cos I mean I wasn't with her that long. Mm. It was like my first Christmas. And what was considered acceptable and what was considered being bloody greedy! Yeah . I said to the guy, how many of these could I actually walk out with? And he said none. They're all display models? I said what have you got in the so , you know, warehouse on Sloane Avenue in Mm. white? Oh I think that was one of two. The other one was like four hundred and ninety nine pounds. So, I'll take it. I didn't know, I didn't even know what I was taking. Really? I still haven't a clue of what er the the pamphlet, it's far too complicated for me. She's like that. I mean, she's really sweet. Mm mm. I'm very careful never to admire things or enthuse about things. Because she's likely to give them to you? Because she's likely to give them to you. I mean, she knows I love Gardenia Mm mm. and because she was in Mustique and hadn't bought me a birthday present she made sure that there were two Gardenia plants at the party that night she bought me. Really? She's like that. Mm. She knows we love the pink champagne. Mm mm. The brand is in. And it's not kind of standard champagne in the place but she always keeps a supply. Always has champagne. Got any champagne at home? Get another bottle of that. He must be running low. You see I, I mean I know obviously the perks don't outweigh all that, er, at least you do get some perks. At least you know, she can be generous and Yes. But she can be absolutely demonic there's no doubt about that. She really can. Mm. And she drives you insane! Well like you said last time, I think only a man can put up with her. Mm. That's probably why she got through so many women. I think she's on back on the right track as well with her. She was in a rut. Okay. Really? There is more to life than worrying about how the maid's ironed your nightdress or you know. So she does have a housekeeper that lives in? No. Now Molly's been with her since she first got married, you know. She's a big Portuguese man-of-war. And then she has a maid? Who's very bitter. Is she? Why Well is she bitter? well she's had a miserable life of her own kind of thing. She's not married? Doesn't like Sir Mark. Her husband left her. Oh. Doesn't like Sir Mark. I think resents him enormously. He doesn't like her. Oh really? Because, you know, I understand that before he came along she was there you know, and that kind of situation Yeah. Yeah. where you know, well it never used to be like that. Is it Mm mm. her first marriage then? This is the original what? Lady ? Yeah. Third. Oh third! Really? I didn't know that. Number one was killed in a car crash? Really? And her, their children were not two and three years of age. Oh how awful! And the same week that he was killed, Sasha, her daughter was in Great Ormond Street having surgery for cancer of the brain. That's appalling! So So she must have been quite young herself then? Oh ya. She married at eighteen. So yo , I have enormous respect for anyone who actually Mm mm. through something like And so that. she just divorced the second one? Kind of a touchy subject. Oh right. He's Phil , the theatrical producer. Got all these smash hits in the West End at the moment. But, I don't know what the story is. No one has ever said. Any more. On the rare occasion that it comes up she kind of laughs it off and says well it wasn't really a marriage. And just change the subject. So I could of been days Oh. literally. Yeah. So sh Well Sir Marquess across the road it was his first wife who died of a brain tumour and left him with three daughters, as we know. Oh really? . But it was almost inevitable. So where are all the children now? . They have one son by this alliance and he's the youngest. Ah but they're all young adults. Oh so they all do their own thing? So the girl that had Ah yeah. Ah yeah. the girl that had cancer Mm mm. she's alright now? She's fine. Sasha's great! Works at length. And are they nice people? Sasha's lovely. Adorable. Her brother is . Really? But I think that finally . Use all these potatoes? We certainly do. Yes, it that a joke Michael? I think he just well they've got pots of money between them why should I ever do any work? Let them pay for everything, which they do. His daughter's loathe her! Really? Although I think the elder one her but the youngest one is really giving her a attack at the moment. She's just come out of Saint Mary's didn't do as well as she thought, or everybody else hoped she would do in her A levels, so is now retaking one. And she's just an evil little so and so! I hate to say that about anybody, but she really is. Yeah. She conspired to be disruptive. She's a liar. An out and out liar! Really? And I think she's stealing stuff as well. She's what? She's got a huge allowance! She's stealing stuff? Stealing stuff. From the house. Does she still live at the home then? Erm officially yeah. But You know that erm these people Chiddyfort where mum and dad are living and erm Which people ? Oh yeah. And they had fostered a girl because they couldn't have any children of their own as far as I know and and, ah they she's a com , a complete horror! I mean, she's only about eighteen and she, she hates She's got married now though. she hates the parents. Yeah I know. And even about the wedding dress her mother, her mother knew But she's calmed down a lot. her mother knew, her mother that Oh God! if she, if she admired this dress That one ? Thank you very much. Yes. That she wouldn't say anything so, Dorothy had to actually say erm well I really don't think you should go for that. That's awful! And the daughter said, right I'll have that one. But I think they are getting on better now though. She was such a bitch! Unbelievable! This just, just looks absolutely wonderful Michael? Look at the little carrots and everything. This is gorgeous! There. Is this the chicken that I saw earlier transformed into little breaded Yes it is. And the breadcrumbs done by Michael. He's a wonderful little treasure isn't he? Have they got, have the breadcrumbs got herbs in? Yes. Taste. Alright. Mm mm! It's ooh! They're actually MacDonalds MacNuggets. I've thrown the box away. Mm.. They're absolutely wonderful! But tell me Shall I tell you what that's covered with? It's actually a stuffing mix Mm mm! that you can buy here you can actually get it in Harrods as well, and I use as breadcrumbs. It's absolutely gorgeous! Mm mm! There's more gravy here. Anybody? Mm. Just a little. Mm. Right. This is a delicious meal Michael. Thank you very much. It's really super! It's wonderful! It's only chi chicken. The chicken is just Is it? gorgeous! Mm mm. And with a of course the vegetables. Lovely vegetables! Mm mm! Gosh! You've done very well Michael! I don't take any gravy so have a bit more. Do you not? Do you want some Michael? Have you had some? I have some here thank you. At the moment. Okay. Don't you like gravy? That's it. Wo! Thank you. She's had enough. Mm. She'll have had Mm. Anything else? No. Oh I, it could be on, I can't see the red light now, it's gone the other side. I hope we weren't discussing what I thought we were discussing on that Mm mm. tape or you really have to wipe it out. I Know. Mm mm. Cos names The tape ran out during Blind Date. Mm mm. names were named. Mm mm. Do you have it on during Blind Date. Oh my God ! That could really lower the tone of the evening. You had your day. Well I didn't tell you about my hot date on Wednesday. Ooh! I didn't know you had one. Tell me. Tell us. You know I had the choir concert last Saturday? Mhm. It was at a church in Hertford. And we were completely frozen cos the boiler had broken down and we were there at two o'clock to rehearse. And I had one rehearsal of two Bach pieces which were really difficult and I was com , feeling completely frantic during the break in rehearsal, and went over to look at the music and some fellow called Don bounded over to me and said, oh you can't be you know you sh can't be looking at that now, ba, la dee da dee da! He must have heard that I'd come back from Ireland. So, he was talking about Ireland, really raving about it and his name's Kennedy and he's from Liverpool and he likes to think he's got Irish blood in him, he's been there twice this year and Mhm. all that. Really enthusing about it. So we were chatting away about that. And then erm after the rehearsal some of us went off to get a pizza before the concert and he said to me, erm are you interested in going to hear the Mozart Requiem, it's on at the Barbican on Wednesday? So I said, yeah! Co , I've always wanted to hear it, and as you know it's our next concert. So erm that was fine, until after the concert Was that a subsidised concert by were all the tickets one price or not? At the Barbican? I don't know. It was packed! Princess Diana was there. I know. That's it. Really. She was? She was there when you were there? Mm. Mm, I saw her. Mm. Oh really? All the tickets were Mm mm. one price. I had heard What was she wearing? it was sponsored. I read it in the Black and white. paper and thought well that would have been quite nice. Mm mm. Did you go with him? I'll come to that. You said yes did anyway. I said yes thinking Mozart would be lovely, and not thinking any more of it until he stuck to me like a limpet for the rest of the concert and the penny began to drop erm He said something about the tube station not being the most romantic place to meet and I kind of brushed it off by saying well at least we won't get wet there or something. Mm mm. And then he said er, I said to him about I've got to get the last train home. He said don't worry, I have the winter timetable. He's a train spotter. He's got a green anorak with toggles I see. on. And I think it's better Don't! Alright. He's tall but he's tall which is great. No problem. He's in his well actually probably pushing forty at this stage. But, he's got he's got a a big round red face and little eyes and a moustache, and the most peculiar little bit under Bit, yes. there. But really it's just like What colour hair has he got? it's just, it's just like a bit like that But he's nice? which goes Mm mm! But I kept hearing him like scrape it during the concert. I know . But it What col It's ju What colour hair? Erm Does it matter? When you have a lobotomy ! Especially when he's I don't know . Michael , Michael Oh no . Michael's hair colour I suppose. A bit like that. And then he's got he's got a beard, except it's not very long going behind his jawline like Captain Ahab. Do you remember? What? Yes. Yeah. Kind of, out like that. Really bizarre! Weird. Peculiar man. He's head of er he's senior editor of classics at E M I, so he latched onto this sort of, you know Ah. ooh another thing in common, you know da da, da da. And did you So erm I was feeling a bit edgy about this when we were in the pub after the concert cos I thought maybe he's reading things into it and I, you know, I was just going along for the music. So I thought, oh maybe I'm reading too much into it. So I met him on Wednesday evening Tottenham Court Road tube station and er chat, chat, chat. He, he talked so much we missed our stop. In a very loud voice! Did you? Yes. Erm, and he kept touching me as well which really annoyed me! Oh oh! Well, I'm a bit of toucher myself and I, I don't mind if it's friends or family or someone I'm keen on Oh yeah. that doesn't bother me, but considering it was only the second I'd spoken to him and I did not fancy him in the least erm, it really made my skin crawl. And erm first couple of times I kind of didn't respond, and the next few times I was literally flinching Mm mm. and moving away, like, hint, hint. But he liked gripped me on the arm and then his hand would appear from nowhere during the concert, he like kind of rubbed my arm and are you alright? . Oh it was just a nightmare! I, I know I'm a real bitch saying all this. But, you know I think it, I thought it was his dingy grey suit to begin with that smelt of moth balls but it, it was his breath. It was, I don't know how it smelt of moth balls. And he kept guffaw and going, and get this awful blast of moth balls ! Really? It was, it was a complete nightmare ! Oh. And I, I wasn't prepared I wasn't prepared for for it at all Go on. because afterwards I, he had his arm round me when we were leaving and said oh well, I've really enjoyed this evening, we'll do it again won't we? And I pulled away and I said, well erm I so enjoyed the Mozart I've always wanted to hear it. Hint! Hint! I mean what could I do? And then as we approached the tube station the arm around me again and erm and he But was he a fellow choir man as well? Yes! It's awful you see because it's so I would have been, been very rude to him. But no, but I can't couldn't afford to be rude to him, I've only just joined the choir. Well in future whenever he suggests something I think what you've got to do There's some in here. Okay? I've got two here. is never you know, join the breaks or whatever and just make sure you're not left alone Mm. you're with other girls. Well, I'm sorry, he just came on so strong. Mm. And, so I was forced into lying. I said erm I've enjoyed the concert but I'm afraid Yeah. a , er you know, I don't want there to be any. misunderstanding, and he, he said explain. So I had to lie. Certainly. and I said erm, I'm going out with someone. Cos I thought he hasn't taken any of my hints so far. Erm, and he said, oh that sort of un , misunderstanding? And then I thought I'd really put my foot in it and embarrassed both of us Ha. so there was silence until we got to the tube station and he said, how long have you been going out with this man? Said oh I thought oh Becky would laugh if I told her this . Well er, January, I think. Mm. Yes, about ten months I suppose . This phantom. Of the opera. And erm oh he was, oh very lucky man! Blah, blah, blah. I had high hopes of us. Ooh he kept, but he kept I'd even worked out my train to, from Ealing down to Oh no! erm , Strawberry Hill. Blah, blah, blah! I'm sorry but I just think that is outrageous! Well I know. So presumptuous. Say, because I'm meeting someone that he'd plan out his Mm mm. his route. He said, I hope I'm not embarrassing you but I believe in being frank. Blah, blah. And then to my horror er erm we changed to Embankment and he was supposed to go on the district line over to Ealing Yes. And I was going down to Waterloo for my train Mm. he said erm do you mind if I travel to Richmond with you? Oh! What could I say? I mean no was ringing in my ears but I couldn't say that. I mean, yes, I do mind. Erm so we walked in and out of carriages as he sought a pair of seats together and erm squashed down, he had me like penned into the window, like I've got my bag and my umbrella in between ha , and I'd already told him I was going out with someone. He was going like that to my face. Like, I really felt abused. I mean at the time Ya. I felt sorry for him but I must admit when I got home and the following morning, and since then I've felt quite angry about it. That's The next isn't it? the next time you see the girls in the choir I'll bet they'll turn round and say Well I, er, he ca , he was, he was then be careful of whatever his name is. he was then saying erm now what about a concert this Friday? Erm, there's such and such going on. And there's one er a week on Saturday, you know, let's go to both of those and I said erm I'm away those weekends. I said, I'm going away this weekend, I'm going away next weekend Yeah, let's not. and he said erm have you got your diary with you? And I said no. And he said, hadn't you better check? And then he said, I don't mean to put pressure on, but I want to get to know you, we've got so much in common and erm I want to take you out for dinner, not just go to the concert, but, we don't get to know each other that way. I'll come down to Richmond and take you out for dinner, how does that sound? I said, I'll see you at choir. But we don't get to see each other at the choir erm, because you don't stay back for a drink afterwards because you're going to Strawberry Hill. I know it'll be easier when you're in Fulham, blah, blah, blah, but erm pressure! Pressure. Pressure. Pressure. Crowding me in. And then he said Then it's , it's better to have a two-timer from then he said I'm lonely. Marks and Spencers. A lot easier to handle. Sorry Rachel. And then No . he said that I did that for your sister's benefit. I'm not a loner, I'm lonely. He said, I haven't had a relationship since nineteen eighty. I was married for a couple of years in the seventies. Poor woman I've got probably committed suicide! I'm sorry. He hasn't had a relationship since nineteen Yeah. eighty? Did I forget to mention that? Well, I'm sorry, the girls at work just fell about laughing. Nineteen eighty? Nineteen eighty. And I said, oh I'm sure there's someone You ought to join Dateline or something. I said I'm there's somewhere out there for you. And he was obviously really furious that I'd said that . And I thought, yeah well I know I'd be cross if someone said to that me but I don't give a toss actually . You should suggest that he join Dateline and he sounds awful We'll, we'll put him on Blind Date. Shall we nominate him? Yeah . And can you believe it erm I don't believe . Thursday night I was living in dread of the choir. And I trundling along the district line to the Embankment across to Sloane Square and then hello, hello, I didn't expect to see you here. Oh oh! I never met anyone on the tube before from choir. And I'm sure my face was a picture. I was just appalled! I was just thinking about what a horrendous evening it had been the night before and then he confronted me with his awful beard and everything. Oh I dunno. Is there anyone in And I had the choir that lives near you, or sca , can travel with you? Actually there's Paul, the guy who'd given me a lift to the concert and, and he mentioned going to the , the film I saw, erm but I knew he was going to the pub, he always goes to the pub afterwards. So I pa , I told one girl in the choir what had happened, and I think to begin And what did she say? with she thought I was overreacting cos she didn't really respond. Is she married or what? And then , she is married. Er erm and then later on I, I, I think maybe she did realize, you know, cos I said I wasn't prepared for that and that hasn't happened before. I didn't want to think, her to think that I was a show-off, you know Yes. oh I have fun with men all the time, chasing them and that. Mm mm. In my dreams! And er er she, she said to me on the way o , er as I was I said look I'm going to scoot now and she said well I hope you don't get any unwanted company on the way back. And I really felt on edge walking back to Mm mm. the tube station cos I expected him to spring out Well, that's my point you see. from erm, an alleyway or But that man does live near you that can give you a lift. I know, but then I, I'd have Yeah but you'd also have to endure the pub with the other with Don. I know. Well I think the next time you just I mean, go home by yourself next time, you know if there was a I think you've got to make a point of of you know, not being alone with Mm mm. somebody like that around. Mm. He's obviously obsessive. Mm! He's not listened to a word you've said. See he's been married before He said to me as well. I mean he said to me on the train to Richmond erm Stop! there may well be someone in, in the wings but that's irrelevant to me. I'll ignore that, I'm in with a chance. . I think if you feel like that Well there's no way, no way of there being what's his excuse? Yes. Ya. Cos he, he's being rude to you. He has totally insulted you. So I wouldn't feel at all embarrassed. I mean, sod the choir! Okay, you're in the same choir Sod the choir! but he doesn't own it. Plenty of choirs. He's not going to get you kicked out of the choir. If anything, he should be kicked out if he's like that. Mm. Any new girl that comes along is gonna get him leching after her. Who's the choir leader? Er th , we have a conductor called Andy , who is our guest conductor. Alright. But is there nobody like erm you know like an orchestra leader? There isn't er, there isn't somebody who's sort of responsible for coordinating the choir, the choir leaders? There's a chairman. Bu , you know there's a committee with a chairman. But we all get changed in the same room when we're at concerts. And he's . What, men and women together? Yes! I know, I was appalled that Saturday. Oh God ! And obviously The only other maybe I'm misjudging but maybe he was observing . I feel totally embarrassed . I feel awful! God they've got I , you're too polite though. I wouldn't be as polite as you are. Just tell him to bugger off! Yeah I would've done too. Get one of those erm attack Rape alarm Rape things, yeah. rape alarms. And just bleep that when he comes near you . Yes. Absolutely . Honestly! Rape ! Yeah. Honestly! Attempted rape ! You know, if he starts creating a scene then you say that retched thing has gone off again in my bag. You know, d'ya know what I mean? Just startle him. Mm. Cos then you're not going to be Cos if he's not being put off by a boyfriend which most men would. Mm. Well if needs Mm! be, I mean I Gearoid will turn up. Gearoid. Are you nominating ? And I'll play the boyfriend. He's nominated Gearoid. I'll leave my handbag at home. Or I'll , or I'll turn up Oh God ! No it's really sweet of you No what, perhaps what you should do is Mm. one of you should go and pick her up That's what I'm saying. Mm. from the choir one night and you can say to him oh my boyfriend's picking me up and then see how . Or you, bring me over and introduce me. Mm. And I'll say you know, I'll say thank you for taking Anna-Marie to, to the Mozart concert. Mm. I'll have to do it But I think she was very . It was really, it was really , it was really very helpful to her at her choir and her practice that night. Er erm Yes, cos I'm gonna have to make up some rubbish about Seeing him. see my boyfriend isn't too interested in concerts and that's why I've enjoyed coming out this evening. And here, here am I, and then I'll say you know of course I you know I'm indebted to you because I realize that, you know, Anna-Marie is quite prepared to go out with other men if she wants to but I like and make sure it's alright. I'm actually going to join in the choir. You'll be able to take her I can't even have a . . Anna-Marie's told me so much about it . And can you tell me the ta , time of trains from . Yum yum, look, come on over here. And that's what he was like on Wednesday night, he said look as so , more or less as soon as he'd said hello he said erm thirty two and two minutes past the hour, they're your trains. I checked them up. So I thought I couldn't even say look Why? at one like ten past. But he didn't . Well, I would go along and Mm. pick you up and meet you one evening. That's very sweet of you Michael. I must say you He doesn't know where you've told him you're going to be does he? No, don't ever tell No. them. And that's something No. Christine said. Thank God he doesn't know where she lives here cos he'll be round knocking on the door. I know, but the appalling thing is that the address list was given out at the A G M and Christine's phone number is on it. Cos Rachel rang me at work and said I need your phone number. I've been fobbing her off saying, I haven't got anywhere permanent. She said, I need your home number. Well you'll just have to change it when you leave. Give them, give them Hazlemere number or something. Isn't that too far? Mm mm. Sorry er i but who was that, who was that list handed round to? To everyone in the choir presumably. Oh that's dreadful! Oh God! So you really Don't you tell Christine that. Cos she actually said to me, thank God we're not gonna have him bothering us. Well I thought Don't erm I'll have to say I'm Rachel because our voices sound the same. Yeah well just don't let Christine know. Just Mm. just say that Don't erm that's very bazaar don't you Mm mm. think? I think, I think that's, I Phone numbers handed out. no I don't think that's on. Because if you had, I don't think Christine's even got her number in the book. He's got my work number. So that's issuing someone's number. Oh yeah. You know Mm mm. An ex-directory one. Mm. I mean it's one thing letting the committee know for their records or something. Don't tell them you have one. But not just for the Well that's it, I gave it Just say you don't have the telephone. out. Mm. Yes, but when you move to Fulham. Oh! I've just moved into a new flat, I don't have a telephone. Yeah. Mm mm. And stick to it. Yes. And say the other one isn't valid now. Mm. Well just give your work number. Mm. I think that's fine if you give them your work number. That's what Yes but what about work? I've given. I mean you're there five days a week. I know that's what I've given. Mm mm. I'm delaying you now am I? You're not. I thought that meal was so delicious! Mm mm. This gravy is delicious as well! Mm mm. Do you like it? Mm mm. Took me thirty seconds to make that gravy. So what's that made out of? Booze. I chose the booze And has it got alcohol in it? It has. I wondered whether it had. Erm it's made from Bisto, this instant Mm mm. granules. You'd never believe that would you? No. Chicken variety. With Oh right. er two tablespoons of Madeira Oh lovely! Lovely! and some redcurrant and port jelly. Mm mm! Mm. It's absolutely delicious! Well we've nothing to mop it up with. Dab it behind the ears. I'm gonna get Yum Yum to clear mine off. It's good that bottle of gravy. You'd never know it. No that's great. Little trick I learnt years Cos that's nice. Chris does one actually. years and years and years ago. Mm mm. And you can vary it though, if you're having lamb by putting some mint jelly. Delicious! Well I certainly wouldn't worry about being rude to that to Don the train spotter. No, I think there's some people you have to be very blunt to. Donald . Mm. Don . He's, he's an obsessive person. I think his mummy and daddy were poor. Did he tell you? being a train spotter. Who? You did. Who? No, I thought, I thought you meant you'd spoken to him after my date. No,they were on before you went on your date . Left mine afterwards . Mm mm. No he's very odd. Cos I did Does he friends within the choir? I did more or less ignore on the tube journey and the walk to the choir that evening, I mean Mm mm. I'm very aware of Not encouraging him. Yes. So, I I didn't er, I didn't instigate a conversation at all. But it sounds as though he doesn't realize that. I didn't ask him whether he got back But some people are so alright, I didn't I answered in monosyllables. Mm. I didn't instigate a conversation. And then I ran out after the But he probably couldn't believe his luck that he was going out with you that night. He said I couldn't believe you said I mean what happened erm yes straightaway. I was thinking How's that? that's because of the Mozart, not you. In highlighted pen that you know so when he goes out with someone in ninete , in two thousand he'll say to someone the last time I went out with someone was in nineteen ninety three. It's sad isn't it? But I felt sorry for him, I did, but that was my immediate reaction that Has he got a good voice? Yes. He's a good singer? Mm. He is. Well he's obviously musical if he's involved in E M I as well. Mm mm. But he can be, he's very, perhaps a bit bossy in it, and erm may, maybe bitter I feel. Doesn't have a very good sense of humour. Mm mm. I don't think anybody should go out with someone on their own in the beginning, I really don't. Do you not, Gearoid. No. Not nowadays. I don't care what anybody says. Whether it's two Yeah. guys or two women Mm mm. or anything, I really don't think anyone should put themselves in that position. You're better off going out as a threesome or a foursome Yeah. Yeah but if you get asked out but until you for a date, you're not going to say can I bring my friend? By a total stranger? Well I suppose I wouldn't do that with a total stranger. She did. I know, but a stra , what do you mean, what do you classify as a stranger? Someone you don't know Yeah. anything about. I know that they're they're Because I go out they're involved in the ca if in the, erm the choir. Just because you work with the guy But you've never had a conversation with him. Mm mm. Just because you know the guy from Marks and Spencers. I did that with Graham. I went out, I hadn't even I'd said hello to him, that was it. You see, I think that's really strange in this day and age. Yes but you're meeting in a public place. Not like, I mean I was making my way there, he was making his way there and I wouldn't want them to come and pick me up in the car Mm mm. and me go off, I wouldn't do that without really you know, having been out with him a few times. But I'd make Good. my own way there and meet them. In a public place. But if I met, but then that's slightly different because if I met someone in a nightclub or something like that then I would be quite wary. Mm mm. I don't think I'd I don't know I don't know what I'd do. I'd feel quite differently. But something like the choir or where you've been working, I don't know you, I, I've got this thing which is Well I still I think think you, you know you feel safe . that even in something like the choir it's somebody that you should of struck up a, er a relationship you know, over several The intervals. Mm. Yeah. Yeah. And you suddenly, you thought to yourself well you know I actually quite like this chap. Mm. You know, wouldn't it be nice if he had asked me out. And then suddenly the day Mm mm. comes along. Not to sort of well you, you can't be blamed because I mean yo , in the innocent you were actually going because of the concert. I know. You see I ne But he didn't , you know, he, he can't believe his luck that somebody No. as attractive as you said yes he's got this goat beard and this hairy bottom lip! You know, breathe that smells of moth balls, I mean who would have thought of that. And he, and If he were taking several of you out why didn't you say to one of the other girls why don't you come? Did he have a pair of tickets? Cos it was when we were walking down Michael can I have a look please? Oh sorry ! Thank you. Oh sorry. Oh gross! They are beautiful! My darling would you pass me Can I have some more milk? Lovely. Thank you very much. I better not put these on the table. You did very well with these. Interesting. These are the ones that I saw on the Yes but you've got those brown ones that Paula gave you. I know, but I don't wear brown. Which is why . I think it's lovely though with black. They're very Yes. smart aren't they? Well who gave you, did you like Rachel's nice jacket? Yeah. I said that to you. Yes, okay. It brings out Yeah. You see I haven't got any unus , I've got stuff a bit like that, but I haven't got any anything like this. The heel and everything's lovely isn't Yeah. it? You look very dressy aren't you? May I start my chocolate? Absolutely. Don't don't dribble it. Yes. Put it round this way. I thought I'm going to eat some. Mm. Yes because we won't be going After that comes. late tonight. Could you could you pass me the milk please? Yes. My greatest pleasure. Try this. Oh that's nice. Because it's so busy for me. On five in this one? Yeah. Pardon ? What is he actually saying ? And we haven't got a clue. See you've done very well knocking those together. Think nothing of it. Neither do we. Haphazard. One week it'll be all savoury biscuits to go with and chocolate cake. This cake's lovely are you not having any? Yes. Oh yes, Just that I haven't passed her any Oh sorry! cake. Sorry . Oh sorry, sorry, sorry ! Oh well please calm down. Just grab the knife up over head and down at the table. This is a very timely supper. You were tempted to take a knife out of? I didn't have time. Michael was asking about my menswear. But he'd be made-to-measure. But he didn't have any did he? Waistcoats. Oh no! I remember we saw in the other shop It happened again. Do you have any use for your French jacket at all? When did you buy some jackets in France? He . And then we got know the go and get myself out of Marks and Spencers this weekend which for menswear particularly it was very dowdy . And, and we . Snobs! Unlike your shoes Rachel, it's glossed out. No. Oh dear. Was that in the sale, or that was the normal price? In the sale. I've never seen this gentleman . Really? Twenty five pounds is very good. Don't you want some more milk? No. No we'll just pocket the money. But you said that they buy Yes, but they sell, you can buy I doubt it. articles, but they sell them back again. No thank you. No thank you. Sure? No I'm alright. Okay. But then they se , you see they sell those in their staff shop. But I thought it was meant to be anonymous. . It's up to a point . Tell us about your job . I can't stand it ! Aye well Whose , whose mother did you see this morning? Mm mm. Why have you just tipped cream on that?in Cornwall. Not indeed, I recognise it. The Royal Albert Hall. Th the commissionaires on the doorway. But will they be defending . Yeah . That is a West Sussex term . Been teaching it to Hazlemere. Keep your hands close to the dish now Michael. And we just . Getting Michael giggly. No Red Rock's come back. I just wondered if you'd rather pay it back. It is on. Isn't it? Testing, testing, testing . You're not supposed to know . Oh my, I'm not supposed to see. Switch it off now for a few minutes. Okay? Ah ah! I'll leave you with that. The worm. Look at these flowers! So these are lovely! Mm mm. Five cheesies to one slurp of drink. Hmm mm. Why is it pure gin? I think Ted would be proud of me. Well, my stars say if you find yourself at a low ebb this weekend don't worry. Every so often we all need to wind down. There you are. If your a little numb, cynical, or apathetic it's probably a healthy sign. It simply means you're in the process of recharging your batteries and reassessing your priorities . Well Anna-Marie is there something you want to tell us? I'm Cancer. What does it say about me. Mm. Market forces do not make the world go round. The earth does not spin on its axis for profit, the sun does not shine because it happens to have shares in a household firm. If any force guides the universe, universe, it surely must be love. In allowing yourself to be led now by the same illogical but kind motive, you are not being as silly as you think. Indeed, the more selfless you can be this weekend, the better things will work out Oh how nice. That sounds good to me . What's Virgo? Better . It doesn't make sense to buy the cheapest brand of baked beans to save a few pence. It's true. So then fill your car tank at the most expensive petrol station in town. If you're going to make economies , make efficient ones. Similarly, if you are going to be extravagant, be so in an a area,where you're actually going to see the benefit So you see Ha I told you you should have those two pairs of shoes. happiness will come to all Virgos who aim the right arrows at the right targets this weekend . Gearoid, what are you? It depends. It is the nineteenth of February, which one does it fall on theirs? Pisces or Aquarius? Pisces. Aquaria , Aquarius. Mhm. Expect a hectic weekend. Hmm mm. You will have to spend a lot of time preventing tricky scenarios from getting any worse or keeping antagonistic individuals apart. Who was that . Simultaneously, you may be fending off criticism from a friend or relative who feels Ah oh! Aha. Yes. who feels your ,your plans are not in their best interest. Well So naff off! You can though perform a successful damage limitation exercise if you try. You may even be able to coax a victory out of the situation . That's Gearoid for you. But if you attend church I love this ad. Tea! Coffee! What? I shouldn't be so lazy. Well we are. I know but there's a lot of food coming out now. I can't believe how strong Is there? these are. It's good though. I can feel the backs of my eyes warming now. I can feel my Thingamajig. Yeah. Your cheek. whatever they call that. My cheek, yeah. The back of my throat. Mm mm. Last time I saw this was in Who is that? This? erm Blind Date. Clara B seems to live in fear of me appearing on there one evening. Her tuning in and watching . Probably you will. You're joking ? They interviewed, interview you to get on there anyway. The one thing that really,apar , well not the one thing, many things irritate me about the programme, but one of them is that they get people on so you've got someone choosing who lives in Edinburgh choosing someone who lives down in Plymouth Mm mm. you know, amongst someone else who's from you know Wales or something. Mm mm. I mean it's so silly! Mm. Well They should all have them from a similar area because most of the time they say oh well they live so far away Mm mm. you know. I don't like it when they're horrid to each other. Well there was a big row, and I thought it was going to get really nasty. They were so horrendous to each other. I think I might have sawn that. Yeah. She was just absolutely appalling! She was dreadful wasn't she? Oh! She was so conceited. Let's see yous. What are you wearing? Oh I don't like is she showing her tummy? She is isn't she? No! Must be a belt. Is it? Yes, it's a belt. Well actually, at least she's wearing decent colours. She's pulled her hair back off her She has hasn't she? I mean that outfit's not a bad one for her really is it? For her. Better than some of them. I don't really like the short sleeves. No. I know but some of the things she wears are so awful! Oh yeah. Oh what's he got between his legs? Oh . Probably black knickers . Look how much she's got on. But you have to look at th , his trousers, the last man. So he's from Bournemouth. Oh. He was Here! Come here. Mm mm. Don't you want one? Look at her thighs. They're really big aren't they? Mm mm. Oh look at that. Do you see Yes. what I mean? Look at the trousers. Mm. I am about to fall asleep. Cos my life's so interesting. He's probably nervous. Mm mm. No. Yum Yum, come on. You'd think he was entitled to living with us too you know. Yum Yum. Yum Yum. Yum Yum. Yum Yum. Come on. There you see. Thank you. The awful thing is, he'll terrorize the other one. No that was stop you doing that. He wasn't even half way down and he was growling . Poor old Cilla. Oh he's awful. He gives me the creeps. Just in case he's got these . Mm mm. Yuk! Yuk! What an absolute jerk! Are you really? Jolly hockey sticks! Oh ya ! Oh God! Mm. But he's got quite an old face for Mm. his body. He can only take certain size steps though. He couldn't run. He's Peculiar. Shrieks . No! Yum Yum. Wo! Come on here. Good boy. Lie down then. Is that what you Lie down. do now . What say that Yep. to Yum yum. What? The woman's going to be quite posh. She'll probably be as nutty as hell and come from West Yorkshire or something. I think Cilla doesn't photograph well. She's not photogenic. There is a lovely photo of her of the back of her C D's. Oh look what she's Ya, but it's wearing! airbrush though isn't it? It looks Mm mm. It's a bit. That's awful! Leather and denim. Leather and denim. Mm. She looks older than my mother. Mm. Yeah. What did you say Gearoid? A student? Well she could be my age and be a student. She sounds awful! Well, yeah, I was gonna say mutton dressed as lamb. . Well that would have worn off. What is she studying? History. I mean she could be twenty five. I mean Historical figure. Oh God! I've got to do the washing up? Shall I, shall I come and help you? Only when you're drunk. Only when you're coming to refill. No, I'll come now. What do you want me to do? Sit there. Are you sure? I think Gearoid should You're enjoying yourself. be doing the cooking because he's the only sober one. Hello. Well that's just, he's just sad really isn't he? Oh no ! He's what The Roman version of . He's funny isn't he, number one? Excuse you. I think they'd be, they'd be quite well suited. Mm mm. She certainly wouldn't like that number three. I think he's quite nice. Yeah. But he's not really coming out with the answers. What did you say? Got jug ears this one. Are you gonna sing it? She's very broad shouldered. Mm. Isn't she? Oh no! Oh no! Michael, she's chosen number three. You're kidding? She's going to die when she sees him. Oh oh! What was, what was the audience reactions? I think shock. She doesn't look very happy. He's quite nice. Tall isn't he? Yeah. Lovely. He's the best of the lot. Yeah. Very nice. See she's going to see these two that are fairly normal and then she's going to see number three . Hobbling I hate that dress she's got on. She's straight down to his trousers Mm mm! then . She's really eyeing him up and down. What did she say? Look what he's got. Oh she not impre , oh no. She's got quite big thighs hasn't she? She's got big thighs? Mm. Mm. I mean that jacket doesn't look right does it? See. Try putting number one and number two out of your mind. Too late now. Yeah. She's go , she'll have to go back behind the scenes and chat the other two up. Yeah. That is sad really isn't it? So you could end up with someone like that. Be awful. Oh . This guy last week she said you're going to the Emerald Isles and he said where is the Emerald Isles? You're joking? No. He hadn't got a clue. Oh no, so they've been Ireland have they? Watch that. But his trousers need taking up don't they? This is really funny advert. Have you seen this? I like the Kit-Kat one. He's just awful at cooking . I like the one with the penguins feet in it. Yeah. Mm. He is so ugly ! He is isn't he ? Somehow Oh that's what we have for breakfast. Ooh! We need to have a . A lot of petrol station cards you get a lot. Yes I know. There's a what? Revolting petrol station cards. Oh no! Maggie! Maggie! Maggie! Bouffant hair tied up in her I know . hair. That's going to sell Mm. like a bomb! You've done very well with it. In fact you've done amazingly well. Yes. So easy. Mm mm. Mm mm. What have you got on here? Is that ? The one Molly got me. She just went and gave me that. Why did she do that? Lovely. She got one for Sarah. Oh oh! Michael ! Ya? They're in Ireland these two . Where? They're just arriving. I think it's Shannon they arrived in. Shannon? Oh oh! I feel sorry for her ! Yes they're going to that, they're going to erm Planning a formal Yes. hello. And he didn't know where the Em , he didn't know where the Emerald Isles was last week, he had to ask. Mm. I know ! It's worth doing the Blind Date to see this. Hello. I'd just love to go there! One day Mm mm. I will. Yeah yeah. Shush now. What is she making? Fish. Seafood. Well that's not erm that's not silver trout. That's . It's not Trout looks nice though doesn't it? Look at her blue plates there. Look at the willow. She has the same as us. Shh! Yum Yum! I bet she hasn't got any egg cups. I bet she has. Look at the way that Yum Yum! Shh! I'm trying to listen. Come here. Come here. Come here! This is Come here! House. Come and sit here. Hello. Are they in Cork then? Je , Jameson, yeah, look. I think she's been, I think she's been at No one. the drink. Mm? It's Jameson. I think she's had some of somebody's drink . He's a bit too cocky isn't he? He's got nice teeth. They've been capped. He has money. What is he? Poser. I don't know but he's too yo Yeah. He's a poser. Oh look, he's good at the pot throwing though. And he shouldn't have admitted to not knowing what the Emerald Isle was. Cretin! Bloody Hell! He's gone mad! Yeah but you shouldn't really If things go wrong though. It's about to fall. Yeah . Ah ah! He lost it. How sad. Oh! Wedding bells. They're holding hands. Blind Date. I think you were the only one that recognised that . Yeah . You were actually. Yes. Yeah. Yes erm Yes, cos he's been on the gin and Martini . Been on the Coke. She's on a ve , she's in a very kind of pretty dress, I couldn't imagine him liking that. Be horrid to him. To me she looks as though she's got bags under them. But I'm not critical. How old are they? Oh lovely! What an awful man! She seems quite nice really. Mm mm. A bit normal. Mm. Quite distant. He's very cocky. Well at least they're going to see each other again. Yeah. He's just a bit, he needs to calm down a bit cos he's not got, he's got quite a nice face. She's a bit She's quite normal. Right I'm just going into the kitchen to help out. No you're not. Are you sure? You look a bit rough. Want some milk dear? You sure? Yes do. Probably. falling off like that Always. to sleep. Probably. Hello. Have you been to the movies? To the movies? Actually I haven't recently. One guy in the choir said erm that the Tina Turner one is probably on in Strawberry Hill and he lives near there. So you could go to that. I'm quite interested in seeing that. Mm. I'd like to see the Fugitive. And Much Ado About Nothing. I'm not sure if there's anything on. We went to see something called the Wedding Banquet. Called the Wedding Banquet? Banquet. Really? It was absolutely hysterical! I've never laughed so much. Is this the one that you were talking about in the Dunno. I've not heard of that. It's starts very quietly at the stage, there's very little you know Mm. or anything but it's just Oh really? taken off. Oh lovely! It's about these two chaps living in New York one is American and the other is er Hong Kong, no Chinese and they're an affair, they're living Mm. together, very sort of Mm. you know, kind, one is an architect and the other the Chinese guy is a property dealer. And he so when it started he said sometimes my drives me mad. Oh oh! You know, I wouldn't put that in where, in any review. Yeah. and in fact it starts off with him in the gym doing his work out and he has this Sony Walkman on Yes. and he's listening to a tape that his mum has sent him. Instead of writing letters they sent tapes. Oh right. Yeah. And it's the usual, well you know son you're getting on now and it's time to settle down and I've put your name down for agency in Taiwan or whatever, and we've got this lovely girl who we think is ideal for you, da da, da da da and we're sending over the papers for you to fill in. So erm amongst the business property that he has he has this warehouse with Mm. a Chinese girl she's living in it, in a kind of a real dive of loft thing to do her art and she gives him the odd painting instead of paying rent. Mm. So things are getting more and more fraught with the folks back home who are determined to have him married. So he's filling in the application form of the dating agency, he said the girl's got to be five foot ten, living in China, Mm mm. an opera singer, erm Is this is story? This is a movie. Film. Oh right. Got to have at least two degrees, if not three kind of thing. Mm. And you know, they're ticking off all these things jokingly and of course back comes a tape from mother,. She's five foot ten, opera singer, she's got four degrees, and she's coming to Manhattan on Thursday kind of thing, to meet you. Oh no! No! So the girl is in on this, the artist and he goes off to meet this er bride-to-be at the airport and she comes in , perfectly , she looks like a model off of, off of Vogue, he practically drops dead of course . Mm. But he has no interest in her at all. He doesn't Mm. want to marry her, but it gets funnier and funnier. So to shut the parents up he says I'm going to marry you. Will you be with who's the artist. Right. Well, we're just gonna have a simple ceremony and er afterwards that's it. Yeah. And apparently this couple who desperately in China, you simply don't do it, you have a wedding banquet and that's all there is too it. We're coming on the next flight for the wedding. And of course, they're all changing bedrooms, she's trying to memorize, you know, his favourite food and where does he put his underwear and all this kind of thing. Oh no! It's absolutely hysterical! Oh it sounds great! Oh right! It's wonderful! It's so funny! And then they have the wedding. This girl is just so sensational! The artist? When she's dressed in the, the gown Really? and everything beautiful looking! Really? And then it goes to But they do actually get married then? They get married at City Hall so that she can have her green card and stay. And, and then they go and have this they go to dinner like, his parents his wife his boyfriend Mm mm. and the other girl and they go to this very chichi Chinese restaurant and when they walk in the manager of the restaurant recognizes his father who is obviously a very important man in China before the revolution and he goes over, chats so in honour of the Mr Moo Bing, you know Yeah . such important guest this evening she's let him into the banquet and of course the guys are dying at this stage. No! So they have a wedding banquet that is breathtaking! This room was just with decorations! Really? All the lanterns and her hair and everything, and the food and everything looked superb! drink though cos I'm driving. You could drink now be driving for hours. . Oh yes, I just probably won't have any gin martinis or . And I won't be having a mug full of Baileys. Baileys . Oh you do disappoint me Rachel. Oh this is lovely isn't it? What a nice wide street. Oyster seafood. We'll get some Oh isn't that pretty, that pink. Yeah. roses. Right outside the off licence. Yeah, . A quick walk and then Yeah. Going in the back? Aha. There you are. Am I in your way? Yeah. you've got yourself tangled up. We like oak. oak tables. That dining room table was gorgeous. How much was it? Yes it was beautiful She never said. Did she? She never actually gave a price for that table. No I don't think she did . What the big long one it was, we saw the price of it . She was willing to measure. How much was it? Was it three thousand? No it wasn't it was one thousand four hundred. Mm? Really oh God yeah we should have bought it. Becher's Brook.. So whereabouts are you going to live? Up in the hills. Well when are you going to have time to go there. The Pyrenees. South of France. The sun. . serious. We'll go there for Oh yeah. We're going to we're getting that's our project for next year. We're going to Something modern. Yeah Really? lock up in a village Mm. so that we can get Mrs . And then we can all go and stay there. Claudette with the moped. somebody said there was an echo . And how often will we go and stay, maybe three or four times . Right. We will probably use it as vacation. Yeah. Er well do you go away that often. I mean it's a long drive down south Flying . We'll be flying to Nice or somewhere like that. Right. It's no more expensive than flying home. About a hundred and thirty nine return I think. Really? And if you have your flights booked up you know Mm. well in advance you'll get the Apex Mm. That's the plan anyway. So you won't be going to America any more? Why well I'd say you know maybe not five times a year but . bathroom. Sorry? The thought of us going to America only three times it's upset her. Erm that's the plan of course it it will take us a long time to find something suitable. Or it might take a weekend depending. Oh are you going to go down there then for a weekend? I'd say we'll have to do more than that, I'd say we'll have to go down for a week. drive down. Mm. And then have the car so that we can actually just drive all round. Do you not want to do this? to fly. Oh I see but you want to get a place in France. We'll get a little hire car. Oh yes. A nice So you'll h you'll have three properties then? Mm. So? Take it from there and have it ultramodern. I mean have it it won't be ultramodern living Well it could be. Cos it'll be sparse. Mm. Very basic. Well you wouldn't want everything Pressure So that you'd Yes Yeah. So that when you lock up and maybe don't see it for another four Yeah. five months, it's not really that Yeah. Yeah. And hopefully something you nothing with a garden because A big sitting room with a balcony. You know sliding doors, Mm. and a balcony big enough to fit out maybe with a table and a parasol. And then one bedroom, two sofa beds. In a nice block. Mm. chateau. taking on a bit much. Yes it would be really, you'd have to employ the staff over there as well. And then eventually California for my old age. Well I've got the Winter rates for . Are they good? not bad actually. When? Straight after Christmas? January, February. Good a ten day break. As Peggy would say,. To hell with what? To hell with poverty, kill a h let's kill a hen. Or he was only knee high to a duck. Very valid . Mm? . They're not gonna be able to transcribe what Gearoid says cos they can't hear. If you just attach this to your you've got a hair on your lower lip. I think Gearoid ought to shave can you, you ought to show Gearoid how it's Yeah. trendy to have his beard done now. I keep threatening to have a clean shaved face. Really. friend threatens to leave me forever. . I mean oh how awful. But h Well obviously you have been clean shaven at some stage but Believe it or believe it not he was he wasn't born with a beard. But he's had it pretty much since. Really. Have you got photos of you without a beard? Yes we lost . Which photos are we going to look at. This hovel. Oh yes. before and after. Yeah. That's what we'll do. So excuse you. . No it's not it's Who's that? They seem to have dismantled all of the cushions. Exactly. Do they do that. They like nothing better. Did he push those cushions down there? Where are they both where's the other one? Over on the chair. Oh yeah. Oh yes he's not looking very happy. He's staring over. He's a cute little chap though isn't he. Mm mm. Yum yum. Well they both are. Don't look so sad. He's very insecure I don't know how he got that way . He is isn't he. Cos you give him lots of fuss. Mm well we love him to death. No I do though, I adore him. I love him. Erm He suffers from paranoia. He does doesn't he. You know the egg cups, I thought the egg cups were for the conservatory here but they're for the conservatory in Fulham . In Fulham. That's okay. Erm Okay can we j will we just clear up a bit more. Are you having a bath? Do I need one? I mean is this your is this your polite way of telling me that I need a bath. I'm not having one I've had mine for the month. You you said you'd like to have a bath this evening. You said so this morning. No I meant tomorrow evening I'll have one. Not here you won't. . No I'm fine honestly, that'll do me now . What about you do you want one tonight? I'll have one tomorrow morning. Yeah that's okay . Is that alright? Perfect. Or is it easier to have it tonight? Excuse me, I was the one who h was last in the bathroom and therefore was last down for breakfast. In time for the Baileys. . Listen, I don't think it's that bad . Who me? Anne Marie keeps eyeballing me so I think that means wash up. And I think there was a cork over there, near the bottle. for you? Yeah lovely. Are you sure? Yeah, it's just this . It was wonderful . rice krispies when I go home. I certainly don't mind but I'm completely but at the prospect of having to face them tomorrow morning. I had a thought about your shoes Rachel. Oh what? You see you got me started. I thought to myself I know how Rachel can justify a second pair of shoes. You have a day's work which is unexpected tomorrow, a little portion of what I'm paying for the heel. There you are, but at least it's paying towards it. Yes yes. It's money you that you hadn't Mm yes. anticipated. I know what you mean. Yes. Yes good one Michael. I think another day's work. Are you off from college all day tomorrow? Yes I have Mondays off. Ah. So you try t do you try to work every Monday? Erm I do yes. Then I had to come back and read Shakespeare. You should have read him when you were younger. You'd be an expert on him. Are you reading him again. I'm doing the Winter's Tale for Tuesday. I did that for A-level. Mm that's the most famous . Mhm. I went to see it at the Barbican, it's very good. How much of Shakespeare do you have to do or do you have to do it all? You can't possibly have to do it all do you? We're doing Twelfth Night and the Winter's Tale this semester. . And we did Hamlet and King Lear last year. And your favourite? None. But you you must prefer one over the others do you? No. No I preferred the other l the other we did. Who? We did Ghosts which is erm Ibsen yeah. Mm. And we did Death of a Salesman which is an Arthur Miller. Mhm that was a film wasn't it. I haven't read either of them. Well I quite liked I preferred those. The ones I really liked that we did last year were the erm we did Great Expectations. Oh yes. Mm? But I'll drop my English after Christmas. I do my exam in January and then I drop it because I go on a teaching practice and I pick it up halfway through third year. Oh really How much teaching practice do you have to do? I've got odd days and then a six week block. And do you know where you're having that teaching practice? Mm in Guildford. Oh that's right, you said yes. It's next door to my old middle school, it's where a lot of my friends went. Are any of your friends teaching? There? Or in the teaching profession . No. Will you be a good teacher? Pardon? Will you be a good teacher? Oh I don't know. Who knows. I think it's in the blood though isn't it with our family. Yeah there's a lot of teachers . . Yes and erm side as well. Daddy's side has got his cousins, two of his cousins are teachers, his sister's a teacher. Apparently his mother taught, that's how she met . I don't know if I'd want to stay in teaching, I'd quite like to have my own nursery school. But what I'd do is I'd I'd do it from hours something like eight until six and I'd give them a cooked lunch all fresh food Mm. and after say three o'clock in the afternoon they'd do activities, work connected with School. school. Joy-riding, mugging. Yes. Yes. . If you g if you attend a nursery school, you're less likely to fall into criminal ways than if you haven't attended a nursery school. Why's that? I've never heard that before. It's a fact. . It's according to satist to statistics and studies carried out. But what's the reasoning behind that. The reasoning behind that is that come from a lower class generally if you can't you know you can't go to a nursery school cos you have to pay for nursery school education in this country. And you don't actually start learning how to how to structure and do things in your leisure time. Cos at nursery school it's basically it is leisure. Mm. Pursuits that you're doing. You see if you if you haven't been introduced to those when you're young. At an early age. It's actually and that's the most absorbent time, your mind's most absorbent where you're up to the age of five which is when you should when you're at nursery school. And if you come from a family that don't bother and they haven't got the time to show you how to do things, or do things with you, and don't send you to a nursery school then you start you know just I suppose like what they do is . Well I think the attitude is and maybe I'm totally wrong the attitude is that if they're outside, they're not creating mess and havoc in the house. Mm. Mm. sort of turn a blind eye. Mm. You don't remember When we were out for lunch a few weeks ago, Alan asked where I was brought up and I said popped out on stalks two brothers had gone to school at . What were their names? . I can't say I remember that one. And I'm afraid I don't know the other brother's name. I think you'd be inclined to remember that name. Well I was little red riding hood I know. in our production. I would have thought that would have been your cup of tea. . I found it very inaccessible. Sorry. Very inaccessible it seemed to me. Well you have to travel by car to the station. Oh it seemed to be a terrible drive. Well you just turn off the A three at instead of. We just weren't used to driving in the country then, it seemed like a long way from So we're down to Guildford but not through Guildford. No not Guildford, you carry on the A three Further on. Much further on. Further on. Much further on. And you instead of taking the instead of going as far as the traffic lights to come to us, you take the exit before that which is Mm. and you just go down through there and you come into . It's not I wouldn't say very very . Mm. But to go to and to go to I would have thought would have taken similar lengths of time. Yeah. I remember the . Poplars it was called was it? Did you get it yesterday? Junipers junipers. So he converted his barn which was huge and he used it for recitals, put a lovely grand piano in it. Mm. to raise money for charity. I think . Are they real then. Oh yes. Yes. Yeah. You could actually do these yourselves. Mm. You can grow them from seed. There's a to be made in developing a teapot that doesn't drip. Yes absolutely. It's just a million pounds and more. Well I'm not moving only because it's the actually there is a bit more room isn't there. Where are the dogs? There's one on a chair. And then the sofa. Oh they're both over here. Oh right. On the floor flaked out. What was life like for you before you had your cottage here? What was life like for us? Erm spend money stupidly. We'd go out for dinner or we'd be In the shops. in the shops buying You see it's limited really isn't it? What Being in London. Being in London All the time. Yeah yeah. Mm, not having any escape. It's ridiculous. I mean you know we've proved the point with the the money that we used to spend stupidly. Really you've noticed the difference? We're spending the money now on the cottage and things like that but it just makes it just makes you think what we were frittering away. Yeah. And we'd go to the theatre or but I mean we do all that sort of thing still but we just have to cram it into the week. Yes yes. For you. Oh no, really. Blackberry jam. Try it. Oh God. You must open it. I will. when did you get me some? I bought it in Paris. Did you? lovely. delicious. Perfect. . Mhm. We've been so lucky it hasn't rained. Mhm. Very lucky. Last weekend and this week although last weekend was much hotter.. Mm. Sing. . Strawberry mm they're delicious. These are Marks and Spencers . I like them cos I find some croissants are too buttery. There's something wrong with her jam. . Grandma used to make croissants didn't she? Where did you get all the beads from? in Paris. Mm do you have to take them off every time you wash it? No I walked through the children's department one day and I saw this necklace with these beads hanging from it Mm. I know where I could use those. So I went over and I bought two necklaces, I gave them to Julie who made the shirt, and she took them apart Mm. sewed them on. Mm. Is that material You don't approve Rachel. I do. I was just thinking about the practicalities of it. Is that material brought back from San Francisco. It is from San Diego. Oh right. It's lovely isn't it. I I like it. I'm just fascinated by all those things. I told you about didn't I? Remind me? With all the cowboy boots. Oh yeah. . I have one that's got it's like a desert scene with cacti and a cowboy and this Mm. bison. Really. Yahoo and yippee-ai-ay Thank you. Dig in. I'm going to it's wonderful. square dancing . I'm not sure that erm a West Irelander's worthy of one of these. Mm. Mm that's delicious. You should try some Anne Marie. I like my croissants . Mm really blackberry. There's nothing worse than a jam where there's not bits in it could be anything. Looks like a jelly . Mm. of people who wouldn't eat this. That would only eat the jelly. Because this has got the bits in? Mm. It's like people who eat marmalade has no peel in it. Do you like marmalade with no peel? I don't like marmalade. The peel is even more off putting to me. Urgh. I I wouldn't eat marmalade anyway. We were brought up on peanut butter. And Marmite. Delightful . I like Marmite. On toast or Mm. What did you We were allowed to have peanut butter I think on Saturdays. Well we never had erm we never had crunchy peanut butter. towards the end but. No she still buys smooth erm I remember I must have been about three years old, it was when we were still up North and mummy was dashing out, it was breakfast time and she go easy on the peanut butter, there's hardly any left. So not only did I ea spread one side with peanut butter, I turned it over Good for you. We were in a supermarket, I don't know where it was but somewhere in the states and I told you I think they're boast were sixty something varieties of peanut butter. How could you have so many varieties of peanut butter . Well you have combinations of you know, peanut butter and jelly Ooh. flavoured with cinnamon. No. Ooh gosh I'm sorry but that's just huge number of bizarre things. Actually they're crazy into cinnamon aren't they? Mm. Well I'll never forget when we were younger, we had erm some Americans living across the road and they invited us er somehow I was in the kitchen, they were going to give me lunch and she gave me the most enormous You probably barged your way in Rachel Probably. Peanut butter and jelly sandwich and I didn't know what to do with it because I certainly couldn't eat it. It was just appalling. I've never experienced anything like it . Did you try to eat it? I did. Anybody want tea? Well I found it very hard. Thank you. Fruit flavoured honey? Mm. What's that like? It's really lovely. Like raspberry honey. Yeah. Really? Strawberry honey, cinnamon honey. They're really lovely spread. chocolate decadence. Chocolate Are these in America? What's chocolate decadence then? Chocolate spread? Put it in the microwave for two minutes, and it's liquid chocolate sauce.. Really. Oh God. This must be nearly Oh no it's ten. Well we're earlier than we were yesterday. Yeah. We're very well organized. I slept like a log last night . Did you I wondered whether Oh really. you'd slept alright or not? The dogs were up and down a lot. Did you hear them upstairs at one stage? Yes. I heard them. During the night. was very cross that he couldn't get into the room. Mm hopefully. Well tough shit. Well I invited them up this morni They were so excited this morning when I came down. Yes but I think they They were jumping up and putting their paws up so they I went up back upstairs and they sk tried to skid up but they were going so quickly that one of them went down the step again. And basically they managed to jump up on the bed unlike yesterday morning where pretended she couldn't get up on the bed. Mhm. He. He. Are you going to try any of this ? No I won't thank you. I mean I'm sure I'd like it. I love the way he calls his grandfather granddad. yes I heard him saying that. Really. That's rather unnerving Captivating, he's a very captivating . And he was chatting away to them. That's not the way you do that . She's a teacher. Oh is she? That explains it then. Mm. Oh yes, I've never ever heard them speak you know, to him as though he's a baby. Mm. It's always been almost on their level. Mm. And you know from as soon as he could walk it was explained to him you know, that you must walk and not and So there's no father? Which I think is a blessing cos I think he's a real so and so. Who, the father? Mm he was an actor in Emmerdale Farm. Was he? Yes. Which one was he then? The people who own the riding school or Mm no it doesn't mean anything. So he's left he left her? She left him. They were never married. What does he play around? Well are they married? I wouldn't do that for you Rachel. I wouldn't expect you to. I just thought if they were married and had children or something then they . Much to mummy and daddy's despair, none of them are showing any inclination to. anyone? She didn't look that young. She is actually the younger. Yes she's in her twenties. No. Yes. Sorry. Really? Yeah I think she's Yeah I think she's twenty six or something. what's her name? Anna's the eldest, she's thirty five? Thirty seven. So there can't be that much of a gap between them. I think there is. She looks a lot older than that. So do you have quite a few famous connections round here? Did that guy live round here then? No. No, Yorkshire . Oh she used to live up there did she? Mm. Had a cottage at a very remote location. Quite a rustic Mm. way of life. rustic Yorkshire . And while he was on the film set or wherever he was you know, away from home for the week, he'd be playing around with every bit of skirt he could find. But I think she's doing a good job of bringing Thomas up I must say.. She certainly doesn't any kind of handicap or a stigma. Good. which is good. it's young for her I mean And she's got him into a very good er nursery school apparently. Somewhere in Blackheath. Erm which is close to where she's goes to school. It's costing her a lot of money. Oh she doesn't live down here? Oh right. They all live in London. And erm and she says you know well she just has to do what she has to do he can go to school and but she'll just have to make do on you know, what money she has. she's on a very good salary. What does she do then? Eighteen or twenty thousand a year as a teacher. Plus single mother's benefit. She's not exactly destitute. mortgage as well Gearoid. paying the mortgage. I'm sure she is. I was thinking it another room bigger. It's it's about half the size again. If you if you did get how would how would We'd have to keep you do it? We'd have to keep the outside as is, it would always have to have two front doors. Mm. But that's no bad thing, if you ever wanted to sell it. Erm . Just knock through here. I mean the whole thing would have to be redesigned. So you wouldn't knock upstairs cos you'd have two staircases wouldn't you? I quite like that actually. Sally has two staircases. It's not unusual. What yo you would have to do a a lot of remodelling downstairs because t there's no point having two kitchens. But if we had the accommodation downstairs, you we could ea easily have a good sitting room that we never use. Have it there for show. . Is that the way they've done it or It is very What does that what do you what do you mean? Their furniture their furnishings. It's very white . Oh is it. Yeah it's all it's very stark. So it's not kind of country cottage style. No she has a couple of nice pieces though. Erm wi if you had the accommodation of both houses downstairs, you'd have you'd easily have a good size sitting room. You'd have a d a separate dining room. Mm. You'd then maybe have like a little library . Yeah. And and a good size kitchen breakfast room. You'd actually have quite a lot of accommodation downstairs. Mm and four bedrooms. And four bedrooms. You see we'd get rid rid of one bathroom, in fact I'd maybe be tempted to put a bathroom upstairs . It could be en suite. Mm. With like a dressing room . isn't there. Well er I mean eventually we'd have to think of something . But it it's if we don't have that opportunity with next door then some years down the line . But would you consider touring erm retiring here? I know it's a long way off but you mentioned retirement yesterday. You taking early retirement? All your secrets. I've no interest in work. I loathe work. Mm. I just loathe work. I think life is too short. if you can retire at fifty. Well we'd have to divest ourselves of some of our assets. I also think there's no point retiring at sixty five you know, aged and decrepit. Mm. Probably incontinent and you know whatever Mm mm. And then you start thinking well you know now I'll see the world. What's the point? Yeah. I mean you want to see the world when you you know when you're fit and able. Mm yeah. And do the things you can. two years isn't he and he can retire early. He'll be about fifty seven. he could still do work, I mean he could still I think he'd want to have some kind of little business going where if he wants to he can go off And then he can go off and pick it up and And he does like to travel. I know he is thinking of going to France . Whereabouts? In the middle really isn't it? He doesn't want to go too far down to the South. In an hour north east of Paris, going towards Belgium. No I think that's too north isn't it. Yeah. Yeah because our uncle also wants to so they didn't know whether they should all go and get or whatever I don't know. But mummy's not very keen. She wants to be near us. She wants us to settle down and then she knows where she w where she should be. And then she can go off. And daddy's doing his advanced French classes . Is he. And he was delighted that he learnt how to say, I'm having a lie-in tomorrow morning. Very useful when one is taking early retirement. Is he I didn't know he'd started doing advanced French. Where? In . Cos I thought he did advanced French last year. He had yes he had some some last year . she teaches business English to French people . To French people. Really. And she teaches business French to Englishmen. And she's one of the highest qualified French teachers around, she's adorable Really. don't have the same character, the other two are very . A bit cold. They're not just cold but you know, I'm sure everything that's done is plotted. what she's going to do. Right. Erm I'm here as a representative of a small company from York, called and what we're doing is we're working on behalf of the Group, who compile and publish the English Dictionary. And what I'm doing here today is, I'm recording this seminar as an instance of spoken English in the nineteen nineties. Which will go towards making a corpus of information from which will draw the meaning and usage of words as it was in the nineteen nineties. And this information will be linguistically analyzed, and then used to help compile the new dictionary which will be coming out in a few years. So I thank you all very much for taking part in this, and I hope you have a happy seminar. The people at the back may not be picked up on this so erm He should be here any minute. Right. Good morning ladies and gentlemen. Morning. Sorry for coming in under the wire at er nine fourteen according to this clock. Erm Hugh's asked me to open this morning's erm quality seminar. Erm a a you're in for quite a good day. I know that er the seminar which I attended sparked off quite a lot of lively er debate. And er at the end of it I think we all felt we knew where we were going, and, and what the work that we'd put in over the last three years on the management procedures, which form the foundations of our quality system. Er I think we came to realize what that work was all in aid of. The management team had, I'll sit down if you don't mind, the management team has decided that we were going to go for quality because it was a matter of survival. The industry which we are part of is in excuse me, is in er sorry about this I've dashed across here I I'll read from Hugh's notes if you don't mind. Erm I would like to remind you of my objectives quoted at the time in th in the quality manual. Er to adopt best practices, er from the various offices, to help produce a better end product. To delegate decision making down as far as possible. And as far as our group's vision statement is concerned, to be acknowledged as the leading consultant in the rail er in the field of railway engineering. To provide a professional service satisfact I'm sorry Dennis, would you just excuse me? Can I hand over to you? I I I do apologize. Right. Sorry about that. Sorry I'm totally unprepared for this. Erm To start at the top and unfortunately I'll reread Hughie's notes. Perhaps wavering slightly. Erm It's now thr nearly three years since management procedures were introduced as the first stage of our aspirations to become quality assured. And I would like to you, remind you of my objectives quoted at that time and as are stated in the er manual. That is firstly to adopt best practice from various offices, which hopefully would help us to provide a better end product. And to delegate decision making er to as low a level as possible within the organization, compatible with safeguarding er the quality of the product that we provide to our clients. The group as you are aware do have a vision statement, erm which has been published er and it was er developed a couple of years ago er great effort by the er management team. And that vision statement is, to be acknowledged as the leading consultant in the railway i in the fields of railway engineering. To provide a professional service satisfying our clients' needs and exceeding their expectations. To be a well trained, dedicated and highly motivated team and to be committed totally to safety. Now that vision has not changed. That is still the group's er vision and stated objectives. Erm as far as certification of er th the of a system is concerned er we are still comm committed to getting office certificated and as many of you may be aware the Swindon office has actually overtaken us on the B E S side erm and they are er, but hopefully we will achieve certification for the whole of our group erm prior to Swindon achieving certification for their whole group. The subtle difference is tha that Swindon are going function by function and getting er five certificates. Er ours is a slightly more difficult task, I would suggest a much more difficult task, in that we're trying to go for one certificate for the whole of the group. Erm we believe, er if we are to demonstrate to our clients that we are as good or better than our competitives competitors, then we need certification. And this is seen as a matter of survival. Er fairly recently we were asked to tender for erm a new station at Rickmansworth for Crossrail and one of the prerequisites of that job, er which was a ten million pound project, er one of the prerequisites of that job, was that we should either be certificated or at least have a quality assurance erm system in place. And because er we do have a quality assurance system in place although not certificated, er we were able to tender for that work. Otherwise we would have not been able to tender. Erm I think I'll leave this up till . The basic message of quality, which Mike will er explain later on is, if you improve quality your costs decrease. Because you are continually reducing the number of mistakes that you make and continually improv improving. Erm and therefore you produce less wasted time, less remedial work er and a cheaper product. Erm quality could be regarded as an empty word. We need to bring it about, and it can only be done through teamwork. That's the point that Hughie has set as one of his objectives for the next twelve months, is to get the group acting as one team, and not five or six separate teams. Erm this is going to be extremely difficult because the British culture is one of every man for himself. People tend not to work particularly well in teams in this country. Erm but it's something that we need to work at. And th the Japs actually score in this because they actually believe totally in teamwork. Erm we need to change our culture. Erm I think really I'll just leave it there cos I'm a bit struggling, struggling a little bit to remember quite what Hughie was saying. If you appreciate I was actually thrown into the very deep end. I think perhaps what's going to be said to you to the rest of the day erm will actually bring out the key points tha that Hughie was trying, trying to make. One was that quality is here. Quality is here to stay. Quality is improvement. And the other aspect is one of working as a team. I think those were the two main messages that Hughie wished to get across today, and that we will concentrate on er during the rest of this seminar. Erm th that the seminar is going to be lead by Mike . Er Mike is from Associates and Mike has been helping the, the Q A team on a part time basis, and putting some sensible thought into how the group should go forward. Erm but before Mike comes on I would just like er Norman to make a few comments er on his commitment to the group's er quality system. Morning. Er quality. Definition of quality, right product at the right time, at the right price. Now in P Way Design we have no problems with that, do we? Or do we? Erm we are the most profitable part of the S A U. No problems about that. Er we've no great problems with our technical results, and where they are we sort them out quite amicably with the area people. We meet our main deadlines, which are normally the key deadline normally the S and C. We meet it don't we? So there's no problem. Or is there? Just looking at it in a bit more detail. We're profitable but we normally don't compete with anyone else for getting the work. So effectively we put in what is a fair price, and we get the job, and we do it normally within the price or within a slight overspend. But where we have competed, accidentally in one case, deliberately in another, we've been undercut by our rivals and we haven't got the job. Also a good pointer where we've been able to compare ourselves with civil engineering scaled fees, which was on the Overtown Bank Slip which was a job which went completely right, perfect no problems. If we'd have put in a price based on A C scaled fees, we would have overspent by a hundred and fifty five percent. So we thought. So perhaps there's a, a little bit of work we can do in er in that sphere. The right time. How many times have I had someone come and say, can you sign this drawing please it has to go, go to John tonight. He's taking it for the meeting tomorrow. Er how many times have we said, yeah, we can do this job but we'll, it needs the route improvement that we're doing for Arthur . Or er , Arthur's in no hurry. Well Arthur is a very reasonable and good friends with us. But he notices, it builds up, he starts thinking to himself, they're always late. It's no great problem but I'm not getting it on time. Yet he begins to notice if we do it . Think about our finished product. I said you know the minor er faults and discrepancies, we er tidy up quite amicably with the area people normally. But what we've got to bear in mind is that minor faults in our design can be very serious when translated to a job on the ground which . Also the person who has helped us sort out maybe come to sensible engineering conclusion on the minor problem, but be saying to his chief, there was a problem with the York though I just managed to sort it out. And that builds up. Also what you've got to bear in mind is that inherent in any permanent way job is the capacity for something to go wrong. And when something goes wrong there's recriminations and when there's recriminations, people will crawl for ways out. That is the time for there to be nothing wrong with our drawings. Drawings can be blamed when er there is actually nothing wrong and people are looking for an excuse blame from themselves. So again for reasons like that, we have to maintain the confidence of the client. And that today is what it's all about. If the client is confident that he's getting the best deal from us, he will say, alright Birmingham ar are cheaper than York on a route improvement say, but I've had one of their cheap jobs before. I'll, I'll stick with York and get value for money. Erm drawing the client, is he has confidence in us say, well York have got their act together. If the S if the S and if the S and T give them a, a fair crack of the whip. There's no problems with York, they always given me a good service in the past. And the er technical quality of our drawings the client if he has confidence will say, who are you trying to kid? York drawings are good. just just yarning You're trying to d divert attention erm erm disturb discrepancies. So it's a question of us retaining, because to a certain extent we already have it, due to our customer past. Retaining and renewing customer confidence. And this is where B S five seven fiv five O certification or I S O Nine Thousand and one certification is important to us. As Dennis has said from er Hughie's erm erm er statement, it is a requirement nowadays. And it's valuable to us in, in three aspects. First of all,certification is a bedrock of achievement, like having a degree, and you need a degree or an H N C or an O N C. It's a statement in itself. More importantly, it's er conveys to the client that we care about quality, that we've gone to the trouble to set up procedures which make our product as good as it possibly can be. And thirdly, it has a very real er value in that, in going for er certification, we are actually putting checks and procedures in place which will help to ensure that what we do is the right price, is to the right time and is the right product. So that's basically all er just one after thought, Dennis mentioned teamwork, now we we've been together for a few years basically, but you might say, we work as a team, everyone gets on, everyone helps each other out. We do within P Way Design, which is probably the best office I've ever worked in for that. But what we've got to bear in mind is that we are a multi-functional group. There's PICAS involved, works office involved, to a lesser extent B E S. So that is really where a weakness is, it's in perceiving the needs of other parts, parts of the group. That's something that we do have to work on and I can't emphasize it too strongly. Okay. Er I've said a lot so I'll er leave you to Mike to take things further. Thank you very very much Norman that's great. Have you all got a programme in the folder? So that you've got a vague idea of er what's going to befall you for the rest of today? Okay? We'd very much like you to feel free to ask any questions or comment er er on, on the er presentations during the course of the morning. Er and this afternoon. So don't hesitate to ask questions or, or discuss points which you feel erm have not be made very clearly or perhaps with which you don't even agree. And let's try and resolve any issues which, which come up like that. What we want to do this morning is erm tt talk a little bit to you about er the quality system and the I S O Nine Thousand procedures and er documented er systems, which have been developed so far within the whole group. Er and we want to try and explain a little bit about tt how far we got in terms of achieving certification to I S O Nine Thousand. But we then want to er explain w what this business of quality planning is all about. Because we believe very very strongly wi that with an organization like yours, where each piece of work that you do is slightly different from other pieces of work, to have er a single m way, an approach to following the work er is, is really not, not the right er thing to do at all. What we're looking for is a quality system and a set of procedures which are flexible enough to enable you to handle the slick jobs, which you haven't got a lot of fee income for. And we want you to able to handle the, the complex jobs which require an awful lot of checking and a a a lot of er a lot er detail because the fee for the job is i is, is higher, and the job complexity is high. Er and we we want to be able to have a mechanism within our I S O Nine Thousand system, which enables us to tackle different jobs of different, different complexity. So that's er essentially this, this morning's er er programme, and the objectives which we want to try and er look at and achieve. First and foremost though, we want to go back to basics and erm get our ideas absolutely straight as regards what quality is and what we're trying to achieve with I S O Nine Thousand. There's a lot of misunderstanding about I S O Nine Thousand and I think that Norman's er analogy a few seconds ago is really, really rather good. If you're asking a civil engineer to do some work for you i if that civil engineer has a degree does it automatically mean that the work's going to be perfect and wonderful? No. It doesn't does it? Erm but there are certain civil engineering activities which e I'm thinking perhaps more about the bridge design side of things really, but there are certain activities which actually demand a certain level of qualification before you, you can actually sign, sign off drawings or a or agree to calculations or whatever. Yes? So the fact that you've got a degree or an H N C, or whatever, is actually a starting point. It it's, it's er a, a level from which you y you er you progress and it's the same with I S O Nine Thousand or five seven five O. It's really no guarantee of perfection, but it's, it's a sort of measure. It is a level, a starting point and perhaps er we'll, we'll pursue this concept during the next er hour or so. Let's, let's look at what quality is in basic terms. We've got somebody from the Oxford English er dictionary compilation er arena, with us today and I, I, I'm almost tempted to ask Clare what wh what, what the definition of the word quality is actually . But do you know what the, what a typical dictionary would give as the definition of quality? We s it's a word we use quite a lot. Wh wh what's, what's the definition of the word? I told you they'd be quiet to start with. Any ideas? What do we mean when we use the word quality in normal day to day language? We use the word often enough don't we? Any ideas? We've got all day, yes. We started early. Come on. Perfect. Excellent. Above average. Excellent. Perfect. Above average. This is great, yes. Any more ideas? The Oxford Dictionary tempers the word excellence, or perfection, with erm a piece of phraseology, degree of. Erm now what's the problem with this definition? If you ask two people to go away and do the same job with a degree of excellence, are you to get the same result at the end of the day? From the two different people? It's not really a very clear definition is it? From a work point of view, degree of excellence, it's, it's too vague. So unfortunately, we're not able to manage quality if we use the dictionary definition of degree of excellence. We need to have something better, or something different. So this is the first problem where w we, we talk about the management of quality. We have to change the definition of the word that we've grown up with over the years, otherwise we really can't manage the concept. And this is where all our problems start. It would have been nice actually if somebody had said, we're not going to have quality management, we're going to have uck management. Or something like that, then we could have of, we could have redefined this, this new word and we wouldn't have had these awful confusions that we get. But what we have to do is completely junk the definition of the word quality that we've grown up with over the years. But we still use the wretched word. So where do we go? Well I think that a number of you might have seen that definition of quality. Have you come across fitness for purpose? One o one or two nods. Thirteen blank looks. Four co one or two people completely disinterested. That's not, that's fair average really isn't it I think . Now this definition, fitness for purpose, erm fits in very nicely with I S O Nine Thousand and the requirements in, in the quality systems standard. Er it's a little bit vague, is fitness for purpose, but it fits in with I S O Nine Thousand quite well because of the con of another little concept. We're talking about concepts rather a lot this morning. How do we find out what the purpose is? If we're going to do er a job? Right. Where do get the specification from? The client. Yeah. The hint behind this phrase is that it wouldn't be a bad idea to talk to the customer, talk to the client. Erm I know this is a bit of shock horror to some of you. I mean the client what do they know about anything? Might as well go and talk to the doorpost as some of your clients, mightn't you? But the theory is that if we, if we get to know what the, the purpose er o o of the job or, or the assignment is, er then we, we stand a slightly better chance of er getting a satisfied client at the end of the day. However, it's still a vague definition and we often find it more useful to er tidy that definition up by introducing, conformance with requirements. So having, having found what the er the purpose of the exercise is, what, what the job is, that we're trying to do, we need to beef up the detail a a and start to define requirements. Now actually this is a very very good definition of the word quality. It's a very good definition, but what are the potential problems with that definition? Requirements have changed. W we've got a problem I think with the word, word requirements, er in several senses and Al Alastair you're absolutely right on that. Er it's a bit like shifting sands at times, isn't it ? And you know very well that as soon as you start to launch yourself into the world of contracting by, by its very nature a contract a a automatically has loopholes in it , and the more you write in a contract the more loopholes you've got. Therefore it's actually quite difficult to define really really accurately requirements. Let me give you another, another example, if you're going to ask people to clean a railway carriage what do you mean by clean? Do you mean inside or outside? Say inside. What do we mean by clean? Well if you're going to ask some poor devil to clean er a carriage out isn't it fair to tell them what it is you mean by clean? What result you want at the end of the day? But what do we do in practice? We just say here's a bucket. Here's a mop. You know, you know what clean is. Get on with that. Well that's not fair is it? Really? On the individual? Because it means you can always criticize the individual, for either not having done the job well enough or for having not done it quite the way you thought it ought to be done. I think that's a good example of where defining requirements is, is quite difficult. And where defining requirements is difficult what tends to happen is that we don't bother. Now this is where I think the Japanese score dramatically, they spend many many hours defining things which we say it's not worth the effort to define. And if we put a little bit more effort into specifying requirements more tightly, then there'd be less argument at the end of the day as to whether we've done a good job or a bad job. And I S O Nine Thousand and quality management is very much about trying because it is, it is hard work and we can't necessarily succeed i i in every situation. But it's about trying to define requirements to the, to the best erm level and best degree. And then setting out our way of operating to, to meet the specifications and requirements that we've set for ourselves. And the fitness for purpose at the back of all this, indicates that it's not a bad idea to talk to the client. Because if you define requirements in an ivory tower and you don't talk to the client, you're gonna produce something which isn't exactly what they necessarily want. Now somebody very very er cleverly brought up the word client perception and in fact we h were given the definition earlier from Hughie's notes, of meeting and exceeding customer expectations. But if we are going to meet expectations of clients then really we have to know exactly what it is the client needs and would be happy with. And we have to specify internally to us what will meet the client needs and even just exceed the client needs. And that is what we have to do within the time and organization constraints which Norman er correctly mentioned earlier . And the whole business of managing the time, the resources and the, meeting the specifications is, is very much a matter which quality management addresses. Now as we go on I'd just like to bring in another er thought for you is that view-graph correct? There is no high or low quality. Is that correct? Geoff's giving us a really really positive nod over there and a lot of very very suspicious people round the table, Geoff who don't agree with you I think. What do you think? Do you agree? I would think that in the terms that you want to define it in, that statement's true but I wouldn't necessarily agree with it. Right. Sorry to be awkward. No. No. This, this is, that's, that's really great. Thanks. Thanks. Thanks. Thanks. But you see what we've got here is this problem of the old definition of quality, still lurking there in the mind, quality is a degree of excellence, therefore you have high quality and low quality. But if we, if we junk that definition, and then go to conformance with requirements we either conform with the requirements, as Geoff said, or we don't. Now a very important issue in relation to conforming with requirements is that we can go over the top, we can go O T T as we say. Now then, is going over the top and spending more money and producing an absolutely stupendous job, fabulous result, is that quality? And the answer is, no, it isn't. Because you haven't managed quality. We've got an excellent result at the end of the day, but what's the point of having an excellent result if we're bankrupt next week? And what does it tell us about our management? W what we have to do with quality management, is introduce the horses for courses idea. I mentioned earlier the quick, slick jobs. We can't put all the bells and whistles, and all the, the checks and all the consultations and design reviews onto a job which gives us a fee income of er two thousand pounds. We, we do have, you do have some small cheap jobs which have to be attended to very efficiently. That's not to say that these won't be quality jobs. It's just that the quality, the conformance with requirements, will be defined differently. Okay? So we don't have low quality jobs and high quality jobs, we have quality jobs with different standards attached to them. And I think this is perhaps a slight confusion because very often, would you agree that we tend to use the quality and standard interchangeably? High standard, high quality? Low standard, low quality? Yeah? Whereas what we're trying to do with this new definition of quality now is get the idea of conformance with requirements. Er over t to ourselves. If the requirements are modest er modest requirements with modest standards, it's still a quality job if we achieve what we said we're going to do. A and the, the key to the quality idea is that we manage job in order that we achieve the modest standards and satisfy the client at the end of the day accurately. Now this, this is a difficult thing to, to take on board when we are used to idea of quality being degree of excellence. Wouldn't you agree that in normal day to day language if we see a line of cars going down a road and one of them happens to be a Rolls Royce we would say, that's the quality car? Yes? Th that would be a a normal use of the word. But in fact is a Rolls Royce a quality car if you want to go shopping and you want to be able to park it in small paces places and get round multistorey car parks? You know all those scrapey marks on multistorey car parks? They're all made by big cars. So we have to accept that a car that might be fit for the purpose of shopping in, in, in a town where the parking places are small and the multistorey car parks are difficult to drive round, er er a quality car might be a Mini. As long as it doesn't break down. Is that, is that reasonable? So quality can be a Mini, it can be a Rolls Royce. It is not automatically always a Rolls Royce. And we hopefully are going to manage our business in such a way that we can accept that a Mini is, is a quality result. If that is what we specified we wanted in the first place. Ca can you live with that? I, I, I can see what you're trying to do I just think Great. distorting the definition. Yes we are. Yes we are. the multistorey car park. pay his parking ticket. You'd get clamped. Would you be able to afford the two hundred pounds to get it out of the parking ? And I understand exactly what you're saying it's just that erm W we are trying to change definition. This is why I say it's a shame that we usage. it's a shame that we, we still carry on using the word quality. Isn't it? T to talk about quality management. It would have been better if we'd got another word really. Yeah. So we are we are twisting the definition if you like a and, and er redefining the word which is most Why ? unfortunate. Why didn't the word standard get put in the place of quality we can have standard assurance as opposed to quality assurance? I think one of the reasons for that Geoff is that standard in itself is a slightly narrower word. And it tends to be used in terms of the tolerances that we've got on our drawings the word quality which has been amplified into the arena where we may actually use it to describe the whole management of the operation, not the management of the, or the second part of the tolerance of the specification. But i in, in theory there's no reason why, why we couldn't have done s sort of upset the word er standard I suppose rather than quality. But anyway w w we're on board with the the general thing which is important. I'm sorry, I'm sorry I've been a bit steady getting there, but I think it's an important issue to tackle that, quality is horses for courses and we have to accept the fact that we're gonna get prestige type jobs and quick slick jobs, especially in the beginning of March every year. Right. Where did quality management come from? Well, I think some of you may possibly have seen this view-graph before. Have we a got a, a visitor? Ha. Messages. What a surprise. Right. If we erm look at the origins of quality. If we go back to the middle ages we had the situation of craftsmanship, where one individual was responsible for the design of what they were doing, the selection of the materials regarding what they were doing. That individual was responsible for using hand skills and producing a result at the end of the day. And people lived or died by their ability to, to produce a competent result at the end of the day. And that was fairly literal if you think in terms of the village blacksmith making a sword. Which was about the most complex technology in those days . Then a few hundred years later we had the industrial revolution, what was the big step change from craftsmanship to the industrial revolution? It was the technology wasn't it? Yes . Yes. It was the introduction of technology . What did that do for skill levels? It produced a small number of highly skilled people didn't it? The tool makers and the people with their machinery and all the rest of it. B but for most of erm really debunk . There are a lot of people like that weren't there? Who were brought in at a very level. Now so erm craftsmanship in, in er in some respects was lost, although there are, are these points I have mentioned. And what was found was that the new technology didn't produce a hundred percent wonderfulness. To coin a phrase. It didn't produce perfection, and so people introduced inspection. They introduced inspection at the beginning of processes, they introduced inspection, part way through processes and they introduced inspection at the end of the th the total process. Why do we have inspection part way through the process? Why didn't we just check things in at the beginning and check things out at the end? So you didn't waste your time if the product that was no good half way through. Yeah. It's it's to stop adding value to stuff that's already rubbish isn't it? Stop wasting It's a matter of waste control. That's right . Erm and inspection got pretty sophisticated. I've put quality control as something slightly separate from inspection. Would anybody like to hazard a guess as to what we could possibly mean as the difference between these two words? Well you have two different kinds of quality. One . One might . Right. So you're saying that an assessment of the inspection results is quality control? Well you've gotta have a definition or a standard to inspect against really, I think Geoff, as well. Otherwise you can't say it's good, bad or indifferent. But I am actually trying to get at is a slight development of what you've said. You, you, you we you were virtually there in terms of our standard understanding of these two words. Quality control is inspection with a formal feedback to the pr process. To the production process. Okay? Inspection you just, you just sit, sit there and weed things out. The good from the bad. Quality control actually formally takes the results back to the production process people, and tells them to, to adjust the process. And then we have quality assurance. This came along only in fact in the, in the late nineteen fifties early sixties. Quality control had become terribly sophisticated during the er war time era When i a people realized it actually took longer to inspect a bullet than it did to manufacture it. So what they did was introduce statistical techniques whereby not every bullet was inspected, a sample was inspected and great conclusions were drawn from very careful examination of a small number of, of items. Now this is all very product orientated isn't it? This, this quality management? Well what happened was that in nine in the nineteen fifties the late nineteen fifties the Americans designed and, and built six Vanguard rockets to try and catch the Russians up. And they failed. Erm tt this is supposedly how they used to teach their kids how to count. Erm what happened was they, they got three Vanguard rockets to the launch pad, lit the blue touch paper and they exploded in great clouds of flame and smoke six feet above the launch er area. But they'd got three left. So they dissected them all with a fine-tooth comb getting mixed metaphors. They, they brought in a heap of people to disassemble these rockets and inspectors as er examined every, every part of the rockets. They found nothing wrong. They screwed these three rockets back together, the remaining ones. Lit the blue touch paper and they all exploded in great clouds of flame and smoke six feet above the launch pad. And they realized that all their efforts in controlling quality by inspection and so on had failed. Now this particular exercise was, in fact, a major project, in management terms it was very similar to what you do. You manage projects don't you? Very small projects and some quite large ones. And some lessons were learnt from that exercise which were enshrined in documents called Quality Systems Standards. And the lessons learned were, how to manage projects better than we'd been managing projects before. Typically when we have problems we say, ah, the materials weren't quite right. Or we made a little fault with the design. We didn't quite manage to construct the er item concerned adequately. We never ever have the right resources. We have people problems. And typically what we do when things go wrong is, we scurry around and sort the materials out. We allow ourselves a little bit more time to get the design right cos the reason we got it wrong in the first place was because it was a quick spend project and nobody er had time to do it properly. Erm construction, well I don't want to cast too many nationalistic comments about but there is a strange habit of employing people who do not know what they're entirely supposed to be doing. Erm resources is always a problem. We get paid and promoted for rushing round and solving problems wh that we've created for ourselves. Don't we? There are other problems as well that we'd have to tackle. Poor planning. Erm I presume you're no different from other people? Planning is a er it is a historical activity? Isn't it? It's about reporting what you did last week? Planning, isn't it? Yes. Yes, I think we've got a culture block in this country with planning. Erm jus just to make you feel a little bit more comfortable about it er occasionally I go over to erm Hull and to run some training courses for . They've got an international training centre there, which used to be a monastery. It's a terrible place. And erm yo you have these rooms the size of wardrobes you know? Absolutely dreadful. Anyway erm occasionally they will inflict upon the group a German person or a Swiss national. And when we give the people syndicate or group exercises to do, the group with the Swiss person or German person in it is subjected to,now what is it we are supposed to be doing now? We must write down the objectives of this exercise. We must plan what we are going to do . And the Dutch and the English put up with this for about fifteen seconds. And then they take their jackets off and rush down the road at five thousand miles an hour and when you say to them, but you're going in the wrong direction. They say, well that doesn't matter. We're having a good time. You know? We're busy. We're enjoying it. I think we have a, we do, a, a slight culture block on planning. Erm overbooking work. We're squeezing quarts out of pint pots. You've all got friends and relations in er other jobs and they've all been struggling for the last two or three years haven't they? Under a lot of pressure trying to get quarts out of pint pots and I think y you you've suffered the same way. Erm never mind the quality, feel the width. You know, just get the stuff out of the gate. Poor plant equipment is something which is, probably doesn't affect you quite directly. Erm but it would affect the people you deal with. Poor supervision. I don't mean poor supervisors, I mean at every level of management. We don't seem to get the supervision quite right, we either over do it or under do it. Poor specification. We're back to this business of quality is conformance with requirements. How much effort do we put into defining the requirements? Misunderstanding of contracts, deliberate or otherwise. And it's a well known scientific fact that quality as a degree of excellence equals Rolls Royces. Equals something that's incredibly expensive and it's a jolly good idea for other people. If they can afford it. Okay? So these are the sorts of problems we get. Now the American space scientists asked this stunning question. They said why do we get poor materials? Why do we get poor designs? Why do we plan badly? Why do we have poor supervision? And that was the answer. There are three possible answers. Acts of God, junior staff and management. Now I know some of you will find d er find it rather difficult to distinguish between those two. But in all seriousness what percentage of our problems are caused by hail, rain, wind, snow, blow, fire and earthquake? Small amount. How small ? Well what percentage would you say? Guess. Think that's reasonable? It depends if it's the wrong sort of fog again. It depends which country you're in as well. But by and large it's less, it's actually less than one percent. Er what percentage of problems are caused by these terrible people? Well shall I tell you what the directors of the construction company said? They said ninety five percent. Then they said we do accept some responsibility for about four percent of problems. And the reality is of course? It's the other way . It's the other way round. Yes. Management have to take responsibility for over ninety five percent of the problems we get, whether they're safety problems, quality problems or whatever problems. So what do we do about this? Well we er the obvious er immediate i idea would be to sack the management and promote the junior staff . I think you're safe Margaret. they didn't believe that. Right. So what do we do about this? Cos management are causing ninety five percent of all our problems so what are we going to do about them? Reeducate them? Let's, we've got to look at what it is that management are making a mess of. And we've gotta look at a training programme haven't we? Again, if we go back to the example then it's not too personal to then is it? Erm we have twenty people in, in a group and we go around and ask then how much post school technical and professional training they've had, we would come out with an average group of a total of about a hundred years of post school professional and technical training. If we go round the same group and ask them how much management training they've had, we'd be lucky if we could dredge up fifty weeks. Because i it is assumed management is learned by picking up the bad habits of your predecessor and their predecessors for the last five hundred years. There's not very much really formal management train in fact as an employer, is, is really rather good compared with most people we come across. In the outside world. And in, in fact in this area. We have some wry wry smiles from some of the older people er in the group here because they er didn't get much when they were at the formative stages of their careers. Right. What I've done now is taken you through to the point where, we're asking ourselves what is it that management make a mess of? And what can we train management in to be better? Well the answer is the index of I S O Nine Thousand and One. Because what I S O Nine Thousand and One is is the result of the investigation that the American space scientists did in nineteen fifty nine, to find out what areas management are weak in. And they identified in nineteen fifty nine eighteen areas of management activity that management consistently made a mess of. And in fact it's grown to twenty areas in the intervening thirty odd years, so that's not bad emp empire building really is it?thought it might have been one hundred and forty eight by now but it's not. But it's grown to twenty areas. Now I S O Nine Thousand and One is nothing more, nothing less, than a list of things that management should address a little more carefully. There's nothing revolutionary in I S O Nine Thousand and One. There aren't any bolts out of the blue. There aren't any stunning new ideas, or concepts. It's all really rather boring actually. But what it tells us is that in these twenty areas, management should try and think about what it is they can do to prevent problems. With the best will in the world we're not going to be perfect first time round, so we've got to have detection interaction mechanisms. But in I S O Nine Thousand and One there is also a thread of quality improvement, in each of the areas which we're supposed to address. And the quality improvement is once we have found that we've got a problem, how do we stop it recurring? How do we stop the same type of problem recurring? There's a learning curve. The theory is we do not invent the wheel every day. Right. Now I want to hand you over to, to Dennis hop hopefully not too belatedly Dennis? And erm what I'd like is for Dennis is to explain a little about how far we've actually got with the C E D G approach to the introduction of I S O Nine Thousand. So having introduced the idea that I S O Nine Thousand is about improving our management competence, it's not about improving our technical competence, we are technically very good. It's the management that fails us. Er I'd like to r er throw it over to Dennis with the er stage there, so that er we explain how far we got in addressing these management shortcomings issues. Alright Dennis? Right. Thank you very much, Mike. Quality in management systems. Well Mike has explained that quality isn't quality. Erm and management doesn't. Er so you can be even more confused with quality management system. Erm the next session is rather hard work for you cos it's very much sort of listening and absorbing a hell of a lot of facts, but I trust you will bear with me. And it does get easier towards lunchtime when we allow you to play. Erm the management team is committed to the group's quality system. And the management team expect all staff to be equally committed. The system incorporates procedures which are designed to assist staff in carrying out their work in a planned, consistent and economic manner. And procedures are intended to foster and not inhibit the exercising of professional engineering judgement and creative problem solving. That's what Mike has just said. The group has got two aims, one is certification of the system to I S O Nine Thousand and One, and the second very important one is the continual improvement of the system as er to make a change in working practices, and business organizations and reorganizations. Like all things these days we have a quality policy statement. Erm this is bound up in the group's quality system manual, which will be distributed to you on Monday. Er and much of what I'm going to say today in the next twenty minutes i it's bound in here, so there's no need to take notes. It's, it's, it's there to be read and to be worked to. The group's policy is produce work of a quality commensurate with the requirements of the job. Rolls Royce versus the Mini scenario. Quality, completion on time and safety are regarded as indivisib indivisible and quality is of course of paramount importance in our railway environment. So how do we achieve quality? You may disagree with it, but this is the management team's stated view of achieving quality. We need to have an organization structure with defined individual responsibilities. We have established procedures for carrying out the work. We agree clear remits with the clients. We ensure that those remits are fully understood by the project team before work starts. We insist the conceptual design, and I'm underlining conceptual design, is the responsibility of the function and section engineers, who have bottom line responsibility for each project. We allocate specified assigned tasks to staff, with the necessary skills and abilities to undertake those tasks. And this experience can be gained either by formal education and or on the job training. If you haven't got the skill you should not be asked to undertake that task until you are trained or supervised. We encourage good internal and external communications. And as we brought out first thing this morning, communication within the group, that is across the functions, and also in some cases within the functions, is poor. We act as separate cells, we need to act as a team. We insist that all work leaving the office is suitably checked, and I underline the word suitably checked. The degree of checking is determined by the section engineer responsible for the project. We recognize that every member of the group can contribute to the development and improvement and success of the group, and we encourage every member to make their contribution to the group's success. Now there's nothing new, revolutionary, exciting in that. That is all good, sound common sense and hopefully that is what we are currently practising. If we just first look at the organization that we have, or perhaps more correctly will have following consultation, erm I think you will agree with me that the, the roles and responsibilities of those people are fairly well defined. The group engineer, function heads and project team and section engineers. If we just quickly look at the role of the project coordinator. The man in the middle there. Or person in the middle. Sorry. All work within the group is assigned as projects, and for each project a project coordinator is appointed. Project coordinator will almost invariably be a section engineer. However, when the complexity of the job demands it, he will be a function engineer. In addition to their other responsibilities, the project coordinator is responsible for a number activities. He is responsible for developing and agreeing the total C E D G remit with the client. Not the function remit, the total remit. . He is also the formal point of contact between the group and the client and as such he is required to coordinate the group's, group's activities on a giv given project. He will, in cooperation with section engineers and team quantity surveyors, develop project quality plans, and we'll explain those later today, and he will also sign off the project quality plan and the client's appointment contract. Additionally he will sign off client reports. And the client reports are a single report covering all the functions on a specified project. The section engineer, who can also be a project coordinator,a as I've explained, is responsible for directing the group of project engineers and for overviewing all aspects of the project within his section, to ensure that they are technically adequate t to ensure they are technically adequate, have quality and we are providing safe service to the client. He is also responsible for appointing the project team within his own section. And also responsible for preparing the project quality plan for his section. The project engineer is responsible for the day to day development of the project and he will undertake the requirements of a project quality plan to meet all the necessary current standards. And the project engineer will be assisted by resident engineers, designers, detailers, quantity surveyors and not forgetting, of course, clerical support. We tend to forget the clerks. And that really is the fundamental principles behind the management procedures and the group's quality system. It's what we've been working at for the last three years. The set up I've described there aligns itself with the manner in which most consultants work. In essence, the section engineer is equivalent to an associate, and takes bottom line responsibility for all his projects. That is completion on time, to spec and within the fee-bid. Let's look at the group's procedures with emphasis on the quality system. Our quality system, like any other, has two interrelated aspects. They are our clients needs and expectations and our own needs and expectation and i interests. As a service organization, we must continually meet the needs and expectations of our clients and in the most economic way. To meet these aspirations we must make the best use of our human, technological, material and financial resources and this must be done within the framework of a well planned and a well managed system. Our clients also need the assurance and confidence that we have the ability to provide a service which consistently meets their requirements. Therefore it is necessary to maintain documentary evidence that our system not only exists, but is being operated as intended. And the above factors form the basis of our quality system. Very much a regurgitation of what Mike said this morning. If we just look at that system and the hierarchy of documentation that forms the system, hopefully things will start to gel with you with regard to the management procedures. At the top we have I S O Nine Thousand and One. Erm beneath I S O Nine Thousand and One we have the group's quality manual. And the quality manual are the white sheets contained within this red folder. Beneath the quality manual we have quality systems and qual sorry. Sorry. Quality system procedures which also include project quality plans. And beneath those we have the much loved management procedures. This in essence is the key for the group's system. If we look at management er procedures Could ask the question but I'm, the mo more cynical of you will er not answer in the right way, what are management procedures? They aim to collect together the best practices from within the group. Those that have been found to work. And then to communicate these to all of our staff. They're quite simply a collection of directives. Or instructions which advise the staff how a particular project, how a particular task is undertaken with guidance on why we do it. Who is responsible for the task, and who makes the decisions. Which members of the organization need to be involved in that task, and which don't. And they also contain the standard pr proforma used within the group. They're live documents which are subject to revision as the organization changes and as we improve. And they are there to be worked to until such time as we find a better way of doing it. They provide uniformity across the group. They ensure that best practice is adopted. They cut out Spanish practice and job creation which is rife, or has been rife, within some quarters of the group. In essence they are the group's instruction manual, or practice notes as our architectural mem er colleagues prefer to call them. Quite simply they are documented work statements for specific activities which rationalize and standardize the current working practice throughout the group. They can be considered under three headings. There are those which address the acquirement the requirements of I S O Nine Thousand and One I S O Nine Thousand ? I S O Nine Thousand and One through project quality plans. Those which fulfil the requirements of I S O Nine Thousand and One erm through quality system procedures. And those which have absolutely no affect on the quality of the service that we provide to our client, but they form Board requirements, legal and other requirements, admin arrangements, local instructions and policy. That is, is drawn to scale. Seventy five percent of what is contained within the blue manual, has nothing to do with the quality of the service that we provide to our clients. What we've attempted to do is to put all of our instructions into one manual, so that we don't view quality as an add-on or something extra. It is all part of living and breathing, doing things that come naturally. Does that help? Begin to help? If we then look at the quality manual, which is the, the white document, contained within here. This is very much an overview document and describes the way in which the group conducts its business. It is the document which can be viewed by our existing and prospective clients to enable them to gain an insight into our quality system. It defines how our quality system relates to us and our activities. And it describes how the requirements of I S O Nine Thousand and One are satisfied within the group. And it forms a reference document to the full scope of a quality system. And it is the document which the quality auditors will initially use to check that the quality system exists, is operating and is fit for the purpose. Now because the quality manual is very much an overview document, we need to introduce more detailed documents which control the day to day operation of the quality system. And these are called the quality system procedures. And again they're bound in here. There are seven quality system procedures. In essence these are stand-alone management procedures except they are printed on pink paper. I'm not numerically dys dyslexic by the way, I put them in that order for, for a reason . We have quality system procedure number one, which is the quality reference summary. This will be used almost exclusively by quality auditors at the start of the audit trail and provide a simple matrix. Er and this is an extract from, from it, it provides a simple erm matrix which identifies the clause in I S O Nine Thousand and One, and then identifies which management procedure or quality system procedure er relates to that particular clause in I I S O Nine Thousand and One. This starts to unravel the blue book, hopefully, and identifies those which refer to the quality,whi which are quality procedures, and those which are the other procedures. Q S P Six er gives generic job descriptions and sets down broad responsibility statements relating to quality and safety. Q S P Seven, project quality plans, we are going to be talking about in great detail after the after coffee, and also through your playtime at lunchtime. You have to remember that all work assigned within the group is organized as projects and as a service organization no two of our projects are identical. Consequently those sections of I S O Nine Thousand and One which deal with project specific act activities, are addressed through project quality plans. Quality system procedures two to five, provide the mechanism by which our quality system is constantly reviewed, updated and improved. And this afternoon Mike is going to be talking about nonconforming product control, corrective actions and internal quality audits. Erm and this is really the mechanism by which you can ensure the continuous or continual improvement of the quality system. And it echoes the group's quality statement that recognizes that all staff have a voice, and this voice should be heard. These procedures will give you the opportunity of getting your voice heard. Quality system procedure two, talks about how the management team pick up suggestions made by yourselves through Q S P Three, and set about making decisions for improvement of the group's quality system, the service that we provide to our clients. And that really is group's quality system. And hopefully I've ou I've hopefully you've found nothing too painful in what I've outlined there. And hopefully I've shown you the key that unravels some of the mystery of the blue book. The blue book is really our instruction manual, and the red book unlocks that to help us identify those procedures which affect the quality of service that we provide to our clients. Erm now, the other thing I mentioned at the beginning was certification of the system. And I recognize there are a few people here, here who are not P Way people. Erm Works, Q S, Business Manager, B E S have been through the same process as you're going through today. Erm and you are currently here erm and your teach-ins. Tomorrow the other half of the P Way section will be having their teach-ins and on Monday the intention is that quality system procedures, quality plans etcetera, will be introduced within the P Way office. Currently working in the works office, Q S and the business managers and B E S. And in the middle of June the bridge office will be going through the same exercise and June the nineteenth, I think, it's the Monday everyone within the group will be working to the group's quality systems. And we're shortly to appoint some erm consultant assessor who will assess our system, and we will run our, have our system in place for a period of about four months. Er and I'm quite sure there'll be quite a bit of change to many of our procedures. There are currently procedures which are absent, which will need to be introduced. And the intention is that by the end of this year our system will be certified to I S O Nine Thousand and One. Okay? And that I'd just like to say one thing Dennis. What's the difference between B S five seven five O and I S O Nine Thousand? I S O Nine Thousand is an internationally . Yeah.. Yes. There isn't any difference. It's the same document. It's just that erm the I S O version, as you quite rightly say, is sort of recognized and used in other countries. And the fact that it's got a B S label means that it's the, the indigenous one to the U K really. But the content of I S O Nine Thousand and B S five seven five O are the same. the same. We're using I S O Nine Thousand as a result of Board policy . Okay. Coffee time. Yes. We're, we're currently running about fifteen minutes late . Lun lunch time is fixed for twelve so we must get . Did you? Is? Yeah. tape running? I should perhaps apologize on behalf of the hotel for the temperature in the room this morning er I stayed here last night and woke up to find that not only was there no heat in the radiators, but there was no heat in the hot water. There wasn't any hot water. They had a major boiler breakdown last night. Two boilers failed. Er so, so there's a distinct lack of central heating. Even more remarkable lack of hot water so if you can bear with us on that I can see we've got some out outdoor fiends who are quite happy to be sitting here without any jackets on but other people doing, doing the opposite. for Dennis. window to cool it down? Yes. Erm something we did omit, which we should not have done, earlier was to mention the fire escape scenario and that is that if you go out of this door, just the coffee table there's a large marked fire exit. So if we hear any screeching noises or bells, which er don't turn off after a very very short period of time, we are to er make our way in an orderly fashion to the er base of the staircase of the fire escape, following the fire escape er signs. Something we should have mentioned earlier no doubt about that. But er I think from a comfort point of view er if you do feel the need to go to the toilet, please don't er think that you've got to put your hand up and ask. If, if, if, if you do that you'll have everybody wanting to go. Right. Are we ready to reconvene? We had a very very quick introduction to the idea of I S O Nine Thousand at the end of my little session. I S O Nine Thousand is nothing more, nothing less than a list of management activities that need more attention. More careful attention from the average management group. Dennis explained how the C E D G documented quality system is structured. And I now want to introduce the idea of quality planning. And then in a few minutes Dennis is going to join with me in explaining to you how we are going to make the quality planning procedure work for you. We've already decided that a typical organization will in fact use the same procedures and work instructions on all its work, because an, a typical organization manufactures ice-creams. Or it makes nuts and bolts. And they do the same thing day in day out. And the way in which a hierarchy of documentation is structured in such an organization, is by having policy from which procedures are developed, from which working structures cascade. Now, it is possible to force-fit this type of approach into your kind of work. But it's not very practical and it's not very sensible. Because you're going to need different procedures on different projects, and you're going to need different degrees of checking, and different degrees of emphasis on the different types of project that you get. The prestige project, the complex project or the quick, slick project. In terms of your organization, I think we've got something and it won't surprise you, a little bit more complicated than the normal Trebor Mint factory, or whatever. And what we have are as follows, one, a manual, which Dennis mentioned in the red folder. Core quality procedures which we've separated out into Q S Ps One to Seven. The job descriptions, the nonconformance control, the management review. How to organize a quality plan. We've got the admin instructions, how to go and claim your expenses. How to hire a car. We've got various procedures within the group management procedures. Now, what we have to do is organize for ourselves a mechanism whereby, for any particular project, we use the procedures that are necessary for that project. We do not invoke the use of every single management procedure and every single quality procedure on all projects. Otherwise we're back to that for force-fit trian triangular approach, as evidenced on the previous view-graph. Now the key to explaining to people doing any particular project, are which procedures is the quality plan. So for any particular project we want a quality plan which will tell us what the client brief is, tell us which procedures we're going to use from the suite of procedures available within C E D G, and following the dictates of the quality plan which will be individual for each individual project, we get an output. There is a procedure on quality planning and that's what Dennis is going to er be talking about very very shortly, and this will explain how we generate an individual quality plan. But I want to, I want you to get the idea clear in your minds about what a quality plan is. So, first and foremost, it's the mechanism which selects the appropriate procedures from within the C E G, E, C E D G documentation to help you er run a project in a managed way. Now, why do we have quality plans? Well they achieve quite a lot. They introduce standards for project management. A quality plan will include objectives for the project which are agreed with the client. Remember when we defined quality earlier, we talked about fitness for purpose? And that involved talking to the client to find out what it was they wanted? What their expectations were? Perhaps even perceptions? A quality plan will explain the scale and er numbers of checks that are involved. The I S O Nine Thousand document actually allows quite a lot of self-checking. It's very What do you want, a packet of crisps? Yeah. I want a packet of crisps. Oh. You don't want very much the milkman left us two pints of milk this morning help me. Put one on the table and the other in the fridge. Oh well er Jack? Yes Yeah yeah. Oh no I don't, well yeah. Aha. No, no that is, that's I want Twiglets that's it that's all we've got. I want some twiglets I want some twiglets. No not if you're gonna open, not unless you're gonna open it. Oh. Oh go on, let them open, I'll have a few with my tea. Yeah. I turn on today. erm if you want to. Yeah. I actually called Del out today. Sorry? I caught Del out twice. Caught an him out? Yeah actually out in the cleaning. Oh right I see what you mean. He looked at me and he went urgh its her and he ran down. I think I'll throw these cuttings away. Yes they're not doing anything are they? Not these. Apart from sitting there and dying. Sitting there and dying. lonely. Yeah ah oh yeah we've got plenty of milk haven't we? Yes. Let me do that Mum. Let's do that. Can I? Yes, if you would please Don't eat them all Daddy wants some. I won't. Not made of glass you know. Move Ben. Ben! Pain! Mhm. What's that? it's really good. He's really funny . I like him. Yes that's pretty near the truth being nasty to you now Do you want to have some of those chipsticks then? No I'm not are not having anything this for Christine. Ah okay ah now what was What was that? just thinking. What? I mean a lot of our conversations go on with the television on in the background. Yeah, well we'll have to try it and see how it works. Mm. I mean if that upsets it then we'll Yeah yeah quite. We'll have to try. They get, they get what they get. Yes yes. Right Don't eat all those twiglets will you? No Who moi!. Yes you. You're not supposed to say that. What am I supposed to say then? . Shall I put all this in the bag? I was just going to grab the book. Which book? and start it off. is it a blue book that's the white one. Yeah. The blue one is for yourself. Yeah Dad that's that for when I've done the first ten tapes. Dad Yeah eleven to go. I want to do it together Can you help Daddy, now find the erm Yeah if you just leave it down behind there. will use it as a microphone . Ah. Dirty look No don't you say a word you you're wicked . I'm not going to Do you want a banana? Mm, that'll be nice. Ben! Hello, it's the thing about spoken English. Microphone man . I'll turn it off if you like. Dad? Mhm. Do you think I could have a go Sorry? Do you think I could wear that for a little while? No it has to be me. Why? No, it has to be Daddy. Why? Because I'm the sample. You're a sample . Mhm. That's funny weren't it? Can you get some more of those they're nice. Are you sure you don't want a cup of tea? No thanks. Anybody want some more twiglets? Mm I'll have some. few more. Oh. I'll have a few more Yeah. Can't get them out you hold on. I had a cup of tea round Heathers the other night, I don't know what it was. Are you gonna keep that on my right shopping as well? I don't know. Oh. I might do depends if anybody doesn't like it. Cos we'll have to ask Grandma and we'll have to ask Vicky. Yeah. That's a good girl. Was it the checkout girl we always go to? Yeah. Oh and we We already had her last week. Grandpa when she Grandma?. an make mm. She missed you last week. Did she? Mm. Oh. I love the way they just flow it's incredible really Don't be stupid . Do they? Mm. When they're ready now wonder what century they are at now thank you Ben leave there's a good boy If a proper lady was here we'd shut you in the kitchen claws on the lino and I think what's he doing?he wasn't scratching and we and he chasing a fly round the kitchen . Didn't you were chasing a fly Ben eh? Is that nice big juicy one was it mm? Was it a nice big juicy fly? Mum You know that fifty pee you owe me? Yes I know that fifty pee that I owe you I haven't forgotten about it. Doesn't matter. Mm? You can if you like Oh you're supposed to say no, not okay. You're supposed to say no it's alright dear Here Ben don't worry dear. That's two boxes ? Still come round my house No it's it's, she was a bit over the hill for it I'm afraid . Ooh. nineteen Well she was th mm she was looking for she was looking for somebody Re, who was in a particular age group. Mm thirty five to forty five. Oh, Yeah, thirty five to forty five, cos they have to take it so many from each age group Yeah. so they get er spread over the whole th the population Dad, Mum? and so er I was it. Dad there was this alien he had these ginormous hands and silver eyes and he was really ugly like just a minute, this Philip Schofield guy is popping up everywhere doesn't he? He does Can that hear the T V? Probably I don't know how successful it'll work but if I don't record conversations Actually the little red light is flickering up and down I don't know No it's Oh yeah That's when you talk that's what Oh so it's picking it up. I er it seems to be okay Mm yeah, it's when you talk. Yeah, it's it's flickering when I talk yeah Are you going to wear it tonight? Erm I expect so. Mum, do you know Vicky? Don't lose it there or you'll have to pay for it. Mm. Mum, I don't think she But if I don't record it record when the television is on I'm not going to get very much at all. No, you're not. So what As the television is always on . Oh no it's not always on. No alright. But if the televisions not on, the cd is . Yeah, music we've normally got some noise going on in the background. Dad? Yeah? Guess what I've got to buy? Mm what? Can you guess? I got erm, no English is R S Sega, Sciences Mind your tea Chrissie dog, mutt. and Geography as well go go on forever. Mm. Who's is that? Well they're not yours. I realise just today how Mm. small the back the back problem that she's got is. Oh. I saw a little girl in the hospital Mhm. and she wasn't o , she didn't have a hump on her back, but it looked as though her whole rib cage was at a Mm. sort of forty degree angle to Yeah. the body. Ah. Don't know. I don't want Grandma What time have we gotta go? About ten past? Five well what time does it start, five past?as long as they're down before half past seven. Did you phone that hairdressers for me? No I haven't yet Why? erm I'll phone up tomorrow. Only if I'm going I might as well come up with you and get it all done together aren't I? It's not the musical one is it? No. Its in black and white Take after a lot of the Nazis are strange. Mm Is there anything worth recording tonight? Murder most horrid Oh. and Canned Carrot Ha. and that's about it. Elliot gave Civil Servants . a good reputation . Ah. I wonder if Dad's got his other dog yet? Yeah yes. We'll soon know when they come here. Well providing he doesn't erm I wonder how his foot is actually. Yeah. I wonder if he's been to the doctors with it. No. I don't expect so, no. like that. It's about that long and it and it just came up over night till we found out in the morning well you can see it can't you Oh you did you see it?the swelling on your dad's foot. Yeah yeah I did. If I had a swelling like that come up on my ankle I'd say right go to the doctors. Just one more and I'll do just have a quick look round the outside see if they're here. Mhm. I really enjoyed my day off today . Lets face it theirs wasn't to pick from should say really miserable. I expect she was worried. No No not worried she said you walk in, you get changed, and you sit back and that's it, silence. Oh. Nobody speaks. Mm Can I have a few more thank you. What? Oh okay I'll set a little game. Will you? Yeah. I liked it knowing what I want. No it's horrible cos you just sit down an that's it. It was a good idea taking your own dressing gown though wasn't it? Mm. There was one girl there today, she was about fifteen or seventeen and she had to put her coat on over the top of the gown because it was Oh. all open down the back and you had to walk out through a huge waiting room full of people. Well that's bad isn't it? That's awful isn't it? Yeah mm. Would they lend you a dressing gown? Well normally they'd given them dressing gowns before but it's the first time they've had gowns isn't it? White gowns. Yeah they had gowns before and that's what, remember?. Oh yeah, that's right you had to hold yours up together as well. Mm. Don't go in there and that could have gone down my whole body as I was walking through everything keeps falling off. Just think that's going to pick up all your tummy gurglings gurgle gurgle . Do you think we could have a listen to this? Well the only way you can listen to it Mm. Is on the headphones. Couldn't you stick them on me? How long will one of those tapes last then, Tony? Forty five minutes well each side is forty five minutes. And Well I don't know but it's still going. There's a tape counter on it. Sorry? There's a tape counter on it. Oh it just gives the numbers though. Do you just clip that on your trousers? Yeah. You'll have to watch it don't come off then, when you get in the car. Yeah yeah I will let's see here we what are we recording? Gran what was it you wanted? I'm coming out. Erm oh what was it? Mum colour That's right. I was Ah that's a shame Mm yeah, yeah. Don't like practical No, I , I mm mm. Why don't you like practical? Well I like it but got to use booklet an I erm supposed to hand it in you see ha I'm going to hand it in next week. Okay. Mm, I can't stop munching these. No they're er they're good aren't they they're nice. Mm I prefer these things to biscuits. Yep I think you're probably right. Cos they're softer. No. Just trying to find a place that's a bit more comfortable for you. . Mm. No musical today? No. I think probably Tony, do you want to take one of these letters before we go out? Yes please. English. What is it called Mushroom Treasury? you're you're you're you're a National Treasury in spoken English . Dad, mind you don't put your jumper over it does that little there that flashes and it get really big. What little thing? The little light on Do you want me to do that? No. Is it there? Yeah no it is. Alright? There you go. Okay. Wired for action. Oh dear. Is it still recording? Yeah well I don't see any point in starting and stopping really Have you got the You got it there Twenty tapes to get through we'll need to get going. Yeah I'll take When's he coming back to pick it up? Next Friday night. Oh. Ooh I've got to pop upstairs a minute. Erm Okay. you got the shopping bags? No I'll get those can you do me a favour and put those boxes underneath Yeah. I've got to er Well if, okay after lunch. You're mad then Polly's gone upstairs with Jacqueline then. Oh hell. Okay. Right you take these to alright?and nappy bags, ooh. Yes. I've got the shopping bags. Oh thank you. Here. An I put my er wallet in your handbag. Yeah oops You nearly had a head full of didn't you Ben? Ben! Come on, in your box there's a good boy now stay good boy. I take . Yeah it's alright I drew the cash. Yeah, but we're gonna see if we can get you a pair of shoes aren't we? Yes, we are gonna see if we can get you a pair of shoes Do you want some shoes . They're alright. Do they look alright? They just let in water Yeah. Come here Chrissie Your Daddy's got you collared. It's alright look if we if its nice. Where the hell did you get that one from. London? No the whole terrace . You got your collar all it's all colour, you need lots of it the age of the hippy. Oh. Mum can you sort my collar out. Come here then. I don't like that. Turn it round. Come on Daddy. He's doing his shoes up. I'm trying to hurry. Come on. Did you do those videos. Yep. Oh great. Erm . Oh yeah notice you didn't know you had them until we clear out the wardrobe. No I didn't know I had these things. So you're , oh that's your wool hat. Yeah. Mum I didn't know I had them. Your Dad still . The, yeah the leather, the . Smells terrible. I haven't got my keys I'll go and get them. No, it's alright I've just put mine away. No erm car keys. Oh Tony if I leave my seat in will you lock the door? Yeah. Or have you got my bag then. I've got my house keys. Oh yeah shopping bags? Oh. Here are. Thank you I'm hopeless. I know come on then. Oh I'll leave that one up. Grandma will turn on the radio? Wait a minute. No, leave it off Christine. Got your lights on. No we're not even away yet. Oh. I'm putting my belt on. Thanks for taking me down anyway. Oh that's no trouble it's practically on the way so I'm keeping your seat warm for you Tony. Okay. If things had turned out differently I'd been driving you down here. Ah never mind it won't be long. No it won't be long saying that a year ago. I think half of its nerves. Yeah. It's all nerves. It's like you the first time weren't it. Yeah. Oh come on don't play me up, we'll have to check this. Got a bit cold have you Jack? Yeah cold and damp that's the two things that it doesn't like. No, it's not I thought it was a bit thin. Ah mm Oh she thinks she's nice and thin Thank you very much. Your welcome. Okay. I'll see you tomorrow night then? Okay then. Yeah worst luck. Cheerio cheerio Christine. Bye. Bye. Bye. Oh cr Mum, would you just sit up there with the bike like a twist bike. Hurry up. Put the radio on now. Can I put the radio on? Yeah. I think a lot of it was to do with the fact that I'd never driven in the dark before. Well yeah, it's bound to throw you, I mean its Mm. it's the first time you drove in the dark was on your driving test wasn't it? Yeah I must admit I think that a little bit erm It was unfortunate Yeah but it was . I suppose I could have er looking at Was it as dark as this?. By the time I'd finished, yes it was pitch dark. Well the only thing you can do is hopefully your next test isn't at the same time make it a Yeah. different time. But in any event it would be a good idea if I had some tests some lessons in the dark. Might be I mean ask Brian, see Mm. what he can do because Yeah I mean I knew the first day I drove in the dark was the first night we had the car and it was most odd experience Yeah. I mean first day I found it driving a brand new car and then Yeah. driving in the dark for the first time, ha. Yeah I'd find it quite difficult well I could see the headlights coming up and I was thinking now how fast is that car coming up I don't really know. Yeah and the thing is also being new to driving you tend to look at the headlights rather than look away from them. Yeah. And that doesn't help because I don't know, it wasn't, I don't think you'd find it was as dark as this. Mm. Not at four o' clock, its not quite that dark at half past, yeah Yeah. but not this dark at four, not yet. Well he had to switch on the interior light to be able to fill out the form. Oh yeah, it's pretty dark but not Mm. it's not black like this. Mm. Are you, what are you doing tomorrow, are you coming in with me? Erm yeah. Friday. Yeah. Good. I'm coming with you I've got to do er I've gotta do some prep it's nice to have someone to talk to. Yeah, but you may be recorded. I don't care. Oh. Nice chap. Where did he come from? He came out of the Harvester but it would have been nice if he'd waited for there to be a gap in the traffic . Yeah. If you see what I mean. Yeah Oh he wasn't gonna wait . either. Oh dear. Ah it's gonna be one of those nights tonight . Yeah I think so I must admit from one point of view I'm quite glad that I haven't passed cos Why? it's a bad as you said it's a bad time to start driving now there's an awful lot of Idiots come out. idiots on the road especially coming last up to Christmas Yeah, last Christmas was a real eye opener to me, cos the Christmas before Mm. I didn't drive very much cos my Dad was still so bad I only did Yeah. the essential journeys Mhm. and I mean I then I'd only just had my operation an and to actually drive for longer than about twenty minute journeys was killing so Yeah. I only drove over to to do the shopping and to pick Christine up from School. Yeah. That was all. Yeah you're right I look at the headlights. Yeah you must do you see you've got to Mm. look if you've got to concentrate on anything, concentrate on the white line or Yeah. the kerb certainly the white line if you can Yeah. cos if you concentrate on the kerb you tend to drive a bit too close to it Yeah. and also it's not always there for you to see easily No. whereas the white line is But if you look into the headlights it can be not dark erm but it appears to be dark because Well your pupils re erm they react into the headlights. react into the headlights, yeah so it makes it seem darker. And you've gotta be careful as well at night not to hang on to the tail lights of the thing in from of you Mm. cos it's very easy to do it because they're two little red beacons Yes. you know you've still got to look ahead Yes. and concentrate on what's happening Yes. further up the road. There was one point during my test when I was driving along and erm the I was creeping forward in a stream of traffic and the person in front of me had crossed the solid white line at some traffic lights and the lights changed and it would have been very easy to follow his lights and just carry on Yeah. but I didn't I stopped But you see it every day I mean Yeah. You know I've had it happen the lights have changed just as I've been crossing them so I've gone over and three cars immediately behind me have followed me. Yeah. We're gonna have to get a tyre gauge I reckon they've got a new depth of tread one point six millimetres which is bigger than the. Now he's gonna be sneaky now . No the only thing that consumed me I was looking to see if there was anyway that material from the seat could be used to sort of target us for a mailing system or something like that No but it can't Not not if they stick by th what they've said Yes and it's more than they Well yeah. We even know where it came from. Yes that's right He was travelling wasn't he? Well on the wrong side of the road as well just a bit rather nutty. Yeah. Are we gonna have another go at Christine's bedroom this weekend? Could do, yep. Do you want to see if we can finish it Christine. Yep. How about if we went out and bought the desk erm Yes yes Mummy. Now wait erm Saturday? Yeah. Only we I don't, I don't know about you but I don't want to leave it until the last minute No No I'd rather Mum. We're gonna have to take these for Christmas shopping. Yeah. Yeah. Well we've got to finish sorting it out Chris cos there's still too much stuff for once it's Can I when it's completely sorted out Chrissie erm oh I don't really know what to say, she's having this desk for Christmas Yeah. once her bedroom is sorted oh well, well we'll have a talk about it later on okay? It's whether we put the desk in the room. It's whether we do it now and we let her have it before Mhm and then she'll feel she's not had anything for Christmas. No I won't. Well this or Find a cheaper one. We'll have a think through. Well she'll still get her ch her stocking and Yeah. a voucher for Christmas. Yeah and she'll have other things to open on Christmas day won't she. Yes, I don't think she's going to be short, do you? A bit like with the keyboards isn't it two keyboards for a birthday present. The thing the desk you can use once we've got your bedroom sorted out Yeah. but Christine it's gonna be arranging that desk is gonna take a whole er oh arranging the bedroom is gonna take a whole day cos you're wardrobe is too heavy to move on it's own it's got to be taken apart Yeah. Okay? I really want it in. But it's gonna take a long time, it's not gonna be a quick half hour job Yeah It's gonna involve a lot of moving as well Well no not the heaviest thing is your wardrobe Yeah. and that's gotta be taken apart right? And the bed will slide to one end. . Everything's got to be sorted out I think her pram and her other desk is gonna have to go up in the Mummy? Yes. Mummy, there's one thing I don't like though What's that? Gonna have ages Well I think I might be able to sort that out a lot of it will be underneath your You know where well some of Yeah. it will covered up in any case. Yeah. It's alright, I'm just going up one up here. No. That place where your wardrobe is Yeah. erm will be covered up by your bed Yeah. and the place where two of th It's not my wardrobe so much, it's my bed my bed Yeah, but is at one end Well I've heard of a tip whether it works or not I don't know so we'll try it and see that's all Alright, what's that we can do she put an ice cube on the splodge let it melt and when it drys out the carpet comes up again but I don't know if it'll work but it can't do any harm, can it? No, just might be quite a bit wet. Be a daughter. Oh god. . . What's that? This thing The that you we're playing with this morning and you didn't put it in properly. Yeah,and rubbing it all down the window with my cardi. Yeah. I've spoken, don't do that any more! Squeak. Don't do that any more. Can't wait to get this bedroom sorted out Do think I could have my desk ? I think so there's not much point in keeping it in it's box is there No, it's gonna put to good use What do you think? Tony? Yeah, okay but we'll have to do it when we've got time Don't and that might be shortly before Christmas anyway. Okay? Okay. It's only another three, four weeks to Christmas now in any case. You might have to wait until we're act She's been a bit sick. Oh you might have to fit you might have to fix you might have to wait until we've got time off over Christmas before we do it, anyway. Yeah. Cos we've only got Sundays and this Sunday I tell you what I'd love now we're gonna be clearing out those, thank you the rest Dad. of your bedroom Sunday after probably Grandma will be coming up Yeah Daddy? Yeah. What I want to do up our steps on the twentieth of December Yeah. I want to come home I want to go up to my bedroom and get on with Well you'll have your bedroom will be totally different, it will be I know. Yeah. Brilliant. much more grown up. My desk will be there and my dungarees will be there. I think though, your lamp you're gonna have to wait for your lamp because that's but you can have your desk Yeah. and we'll Grandma about the chair, but I can't see her saying no No. Mm. cos Grandma buying you you're chair isn't she. Yeah, I know but I can't really do can I I have to get the stool from downstairs. Yeah. Mm. I think Grandma will agree. No, she won't. Oh I didn't ask your Mum if she wanted any sweet and sour is he stopping, going? Ha, ha. Stopping. Yeah. I must pump up these tyres Oh. Well I'll have to do it over the weekend. Yeah and the car needs a wash as well. Right. Look at that man sitting there . Yeah. Sit back. There's Dad. Oh there's Grampy. Erm I'll stop this a minute. Tony's wired for action . Oh yeah It's got a little microphone out there you alright you got the bags. Yeah. Right. They're gonna be thinking Nanny come on take it down. Oh do I do I take our. Yeah, Yeah you take take our er friend in there. Oh it'll be alright, yeah. . We what? Have you got the letter the . Oh yeah ah I Daddy? haven't got the letter it's in the car. Daddy they're gonna be saying Anneka Rice? Where's her film crew? Imagine saying that I don't think Daddy's got the legs I don't think, I don't think I'm quite that shape. No . Erm I don't think Daddy's got the energy to to to run all round Tesco's either. Oh I don't know Yeah. Asking them to donate. Yeah. On I had a half day on Wednesday Yeah. took my driving test Did you? And I Ah. failed. You know the result. Yeah ah what a shame. Otherwise I'd have been driving tonight Yeah? Ah on much? Erm but er no not a lot, not a lot Oh. erm use of erm use of clutch of and gears was a bit needed some more work Yeah. I er ended up I I coasted round a corner which is something you shouldn't do Aha. Erm and I sli I yo pulled me up to one corner and I know it's really nasty Yeah. Erm so I slowed right down and then was criticized cos I over sl cos I slowed down too much. Ah. I knew it was a really tight corner and so I slowed right down and was criticized for it, ha. I think you might like more what's round the other side. Mm. Are you gonna get one with some little tassels on then Dad? I don't know. Cos you're best ones are like that aren't they? Yeah. What a ooh. Ooh ooh. Mummy Mum . Leave yes. Thank you. Comfy. Look. Mm that's a nine feel the inside of that Ooh It'll be ideal for work and the sole goes right up over there so you're not Mm gonna lose a bit off the front. What is it what's it made of? Leather I can see that Is it? Leather upper manmade lining and sole. Oh that's okay How much are they? Seventeen ninety nine Mm Better than the . That's not bad what are those?cheaper . Look it's not the cheap that you're looking for. Don't like them No, neither do I. to be quite honest. Let's looking you're looking for comfortable shoes aren't you? They're smart, they're a bit I don't like those they go slippy slidey all over the place with those but these are nice. It's a shame they don't do the grey ones in black cos they looked comfortable as well. Those? Yeah they do Sorry? Yeah they look they do look comfortable but Sorry. I mean I don't have to wear black shoes but they do suit I think I've put my foot in it don't you? . Why's that? Mm? When I said oh gosh personally. Mm. I mean he doesn't know the Mm. he's only had them No. for a few months. That's right. Stupid. Yep I agree erm I'd better try them on hadn't I? Try them on, yeah. I hate this Erm I'll hold on to you dear. I do need a new pair of shoes. You desperately need a new pair of shoes. Certainly oop er ooh Do they feel good? That's a nine have they got A ten? a ten I could ask the girl to see for you. I'm not it's just that my fe ah but they're not laced up are they? Ah now that's better only it felt as if my and they will give a bit Yeah. but they're leather. Yeah, they're quite soft anyway it just felt as if they were sort of my toes were sort of jammed up against the end but How do they feel now? Ah I mean they will soften anyway and they are comfortable it's just that the sides are a bit rigid at the moment but then they're bound to be and they will give. Yeah well tha that's the nice thing about having leather shoes Yeah. if you sort of go to fit you sl Yeah. slightly I mean if they're uncomfortable don't have them. No they're not uncomfortable ah get the other shoe off oop mm just there Do the lace up a little bit more they're rather narrow just there no I'm sorry they're too narrow they're really st tight across there. Well that's no good then is it? I my my little toe is are comfortable. They are yeah. Do you like your best shoes?but those look wider across the toes. No, no those are too narrow I'm getting fussy in my old age perhaps but No it's not fussy i i if they're not comfortable you're gonna have problems with your feet Mm. and that's silly. Oh no those are fine. Those ones? Those are really fine apart from the fact that it's the wrong foot ha. Oh hang on no that's two they're it's two right foot What size was it again? Nine. What are those eight?nine is that the other one. Yeah yeah those are fine those were comfortable Were they slippy when you walked have a little walk I liked them with laces. Mm no they're they're fine and they they would be nice for sort of best shoes wouldn't they? Well you could have a look at your best ones and decide which ones you want to keep for best. Mm yeah how much are they.? I don't know, it doesn't matter. Yes it does. There's no price on them so it doesn't matter there isn't a price on any of them so oh we'll Seventeen ninety nine that's okay then if it's alright with you it's alright with me. Yeah. I know I'll end up with two pairs of shoes similar but Well it's up to you if you want them to s shall I see if I can find a girl and you might try a size ten in the other ones would you like me No I'll tell you why it's not the fact that they they fit but they're too narrow if Oh. I went for a size ten it would be too big do you see what I mean whereas those fit okay? Yep. Oh well it's gonna be another forty five minutes I must admit I have sympathy for the people who are going to listen to this. Yeah so have I, it must be boring. Must be really boring. To actually go through it a bit at a time I mean the majority of it is fine Mm was quite a hard hard part of the sample to find Do you know what The unemployed person within between thirty five and forty five Yeah. is quite hard to find one around our estate . . A lot of the people are over employed. One cabbage give your pet rabbit for the His Dad's foot, he's still limping isn't he? Yeah, he's not as bad though a lot better Mm. yeah it's a lot better. Cos I noticed when we were there and it just collapsed he couldn't walk a lot. No, no it's a lot better than what it was he went to the doctor and the doctor said . Really? Yes She went up and I it's smaller it's it's soft Oh stupid you've got and then no hard skin there no he thinks doctors have got . Oh wait a minute the doctor shouldn't have seen it then should he? Gotta a get any damsons today? Gotta get any apples today? No I've we've got some at home I got some erm Oh yes. I got two big plastic Oh that's a lot. Daddy? Mm. So you said she started to grow sesame herbs. Yeah. What you want to do is and said probably again nine months after Yeah. then I could start and you don't get any Oh great how many could he do? Don't start Chris! Yeah. Don't start! yeah. and send it to That's great. so with a bit of luck we won't have to go Mm. any more. Yeah Dot was telling me how erm they had somebody with th erm similar problem but more pronounced Yeah. and they actually failed there erm her riding test because they weren't sitting straight on the horse. Yeah yeah. And the reason why they weren't sitting straight is because one shoulder was higher than the other. Ah yeah. One of my shoulders is like higher than the other. No. No. Your lucky didn't they say yours were very narrow never mind you can go along and enter again. Yeah. Grandma?come here Ha ha. I'll make If you wanna me to turn it off at anytime just say. I just wonder how it's gonna come out with all the background noise, I wonder whether Mm. it's gonna be worth Well them having. yeah That's all. it's not my problem I'm afraid. No well it's not but trying to say Yeah. Do we need any bin liners? I bought some last week didn't I Chris? Have the bin liners we got enough black bags yes we've got We've got enough black bags. yeah cos I over Okay. What you doing No. What do you think? . She's being a vandal. Cut all this that's going on tape. . Oh yes a vandal. Oh look they've got a teddy bear. She's got all her . Has she? Yep. Yep first of December Sunday start opening those things and eating those sweets. You don't eat them tha Oh no. that's just a pretty one. That's right what was I thinking of. I mean she doesn't she don't get through a lot of chocolates does she? No. Can you reach me three of those small tins at the top the processed ones. Yeah. Thank you very much I won't let you put it in your trolley. Ha ha. Do we want any of those for Christine? What? She doesn't likes the processed ones she likes the ones. Oh have they got any yeah. Did you get some sweetcorn?right We got some brussels sprouts Brussels yeah. I thought it might be nice to put her back on her vitamin tablets actually it's just a vitamin C haliborange one. Christmas streamers. Go alright starting to get fed up you know. Oh sorry! You would have been proud of my driving test examiner. Yeah. Is it that size? Yeah. Shall I see if I can get you some ? Yeah please Jack cos er I er that's been enough for me to open for myself and the big one's too big. He turned round to me and he said erm right then I'll take you t would you take me to your vehicle erm and may I call you Anthony? Oh very nice. So I said yes okay. No, I don't like it. I nearly said no I don't like it call me Tony Call me Tony. It's a wonder you didn't. oh it made it made a nice change. Yeah. No you do it when you're telling me off. Yeah. Sorry? I say Mum calls me Anthony when she's telling me off. Who? Mum. Yeah. You think oops I've done something wrong. a packet of cereal there. . No it's bad for you won't be half busy to come out the Sunday before Christmas won't it? Mm bi I was just thinking that way as well. Yeah. Mm. Mm. Come on Dad let's go. I like to keep one of those just in case they er . Round here with the toys. Grandma,. Ha, Ha, Ha. No Vicky I meant. I thought you said where's Christine? No Vicky. Oh. I can't see her. No I can't yet. She's probably way up the other end. Aha leave the poor girl alone to her work. Christine. Yes. Oh little babies. Oh dear. It's good actually cos it's not obvious I haven't g I haven't got any other tapes. Oh well wait until that's finished it's that's it then That's it then for today. till tomorrow. Yeah. Mum! Thank you. Well spotted. How much are they? Three nineteen. Right okay. Oh yes loves them doesn't he. urgh! Yeah. They might look very attractive Mm. Nice gooey cake . We shouldn't should we? No which one do you want then . No okay. Those are nice. What, those or those? This. Okay. They're all nice actually aren't they? Is that alright, yeah. kitchen cupboard let's do it properly. Okay. Do you only want sweet That's a new one Hovis White. Hovis White mm. Don't particularly want any more Ah sorry erm If I pull that out. Okay. Don't . Ha? Get Ooh nearly ran Mum over. Oh remember those Brownies? Oh oh they were really sickly rich, weren't they and Yep. Nice though but Mhm too much though. A bit too much really. We need some more meat for Ben from the pet shop. Oh look! Yeah they had those in last week. Six. Six. I think those are one twenty nine and what are those ten There's two forty four no two forty four, twenty four Yeah, two fo two forty it would have been Two forty yeah. So it's cheaper to buy those Yeah. It's all different varieties, one, two, three six different varieties. six different varieties yeah. Oh he'll like that it's got his tripe Oh Yuk! He likes it no matter what you pu although he didn't like that other stuff we bought did he? No no no. And he likes tripe. Yeah. Yeah he likes that make but Urgh!the cat litters spilt. Urgh! What did you say? I said shall I get him some more chews? How many has he got do you know? About half a box at home oh I will No he's got mm that er he's got enough to keep him going for now. Yeah potatoes including maggots! really good sorry. Vegetarian potatoes ha ha. Sorry? Vegetarian potatoes. Yeah what? Have you switched off yet? No do want me okay. No I just wondered oh it has No. Turn round where's the little light then? Oh round there just wondered whether you wanted to keep a bit of tape for Vicky. Oh Is she here? I don't know I haven't seen her yet probably I want to get some minced beef got some lamb have little erm Mm. but we're being good. Are we? Oh that's just once a week Yeah okay no. Some Yeah. In fact I do like these I think I'll get one Yeah. to put in the fridge how are your nearly there? it's surprising how that much went by isn't it? Oh yeah. Yeah. What? What was funny it made a loud noise but it hurt my ankle as well. What? That. Oh sorry I didn't notice that. It hurt me there yeah it hurt me. I was trying to listen to what Grandma was saying. I can't say anything now It's too late you're already recording. That's not fair. Do you mind? You just can't think of anything to say now can you . I've gone bright red but you can't see that. Right good. He put it on and walked round with it for about ten minutes before we had the nerve to say anything to him . Nobody would talk to me. I can't say I blame them. No. No What's it for anyway, come on. It's it is a nationwide survey on spoken English erm there's a somebody approached me today and said would I carry a tape around for a week and record people talking. It's actually for a spoken Oh dear, and er I got new pair of sheets, because they were erm they were the ones I had . So I've got that type pair of sheets. . Erm quite like these actually, there slip on's and, and they've got and they got erm studs Mm. down there and decoration and have on . I keep those best and where these then, these used to be my best shoes,. . Yeah. Is that . I thought you might like to . Mm, yeah, thinking. . . . , yeah it's come in handy to put those things right at the beginning, that's the first thing you look at, you do it on purpose. . Yeah. Did erm, have you seen this and it's for when you eh, eh change your week ending . Yeah, I think so. And what you do, is you, say the whole week ending in ,, your week ending day is Tuesday, so you do that, the new week ending day, so the Wednesday's got to be four. That's Wales, is it North Wales? Yeah. . Yeah, how long did it take you to get up? I went up . Not that, yeah. . Yeah, yeah, yeah it must be because it's erm, is it two hundred miles or not quite? I don't know . Ah yeah, yeah, so what are the roads like is it any roads or Some of them are.. No. . Yeah. . Mm. Is it quite hilly er, quite twisty or what . It varies quite a lot. With erm in the dark it . Mm. . . And guess what they did Yeah. And that . Mm, mm, yeah, yeah,. But it was such a lovely . Yeah. . The this is better technical jargon that suppose to help Right . ,the recovery of that circular four, appendix one of the planning resources handbook so, all of the items for which the E S can recover the VAT and that the invoices payable, the re-coverall VAT for once are part of the resource allocation and any short fall can seriously effect the E S budget. It's that in the period April ninety one to September ninety one there has been under recovery of VAT of nearly half a million pounds, will wait until they recover it of which two er twenty six thousand is the true result of the South West Region of twenty six thousand pounds just over twenty one and a half thousand pounds related to job club fees, with all staff responsible for organising rosters even sure they are around the content of appendix one, section four, and that that correctly identified in cages, Margaret Cornwall. Write in the Margaret all systems computer so we can all read it. . Well I, I got to get up and walk over and find it . . Because I do not hold the appropriate resource in hand, whatever she's got, very helpful isn't it? Yeah, yeah, wonderful. That's all of interest in this I . oh, you know it's amazing when you erm a reference always refers to something else, you gotta go and get that Yes, I think we ought to do something about it Tony,a message. Ah look at this, Client Service Handbook, that's in this over Section F. It says F is for literacy problems, debts problems and drug alcohol problems as well as. Try telling that to my three year old see what . . It's fire engine. . I didn't . Where am I, here we are, New Employer, you have to get a copy of that . Some of these official inspections are awful aren't they? Well, there, there going to understand what they, what they've written about as well as . yeah. Oh here, here is a fine example anything with in it has got to be doubtful. , yes . Goodness gracious me, here we go. Right. Th this is a crunchy, sort off pot putting anyone within the employment service can request change to . E G a change to a cost centre or a . Changes are to be carefully considered before there because due to the complexity and the importance of those even minor changes, cause unexpected problems. That can't mean nothing. I suppose,tell me what I shall consider No. How I shall consider it. Why I should want to change anything, just nothing.. Here gigantic gi , we use to have a word of the day when erm Ian was here, use to put word of the day up on the board Mm, mm. What we do is take the, the day of the week and the, the calendar date, it might be the say it was the fourth day of the week Thursday Yeah. And it was July, it's got to . It was the third day in July, page four, seven, three and then I had to find a word that I'd never heard off before and put it up on the board. . Like gromwell,.. . And then people would put up there suggestions of what a gromwell was . . It was good fun, we won't, I won't re-institute that one. Yeah that's good. Ginormous, where are we, ginormous, erm, no it's not in here and er G Y or J I or J Y so no it doesn't . No , but eh, another word that was I've heard used, and it was, actually it was quite annoying because the chap used it, used it wrongly, but I didn't know that he'd used it wrongly at the time. Mm, mm. What . It was paradigm. Paradigm? Yes. Yeah, paradigm that, that's a bit like a paradox but completely different . What, what is it as a paradigm . You, you, you can't, yeah , you said you can't use er money as a paradigm for energy. Ah. And what he really meant to say was, you can't use money as a er a as a sort of parallel to energy, but paradigm doesn't mean parallel, it means something, something different. It does, doesn't it? Yeah. I mean it's not they way you expect it either, yeah, paradigm means example of pattern of, reflection of noun, hence parasite, big . . No, I don't think I believe at all. No, but, he was using it as, as a fancy word for parallel and he wasn't using it properly. The trouble is I didn't know because I've never heard the word before. So, you could off asked him, what's he mean by the word paradigm. Yeah. Because I've never used that word before, he'll say something completely pathetic. . At least you'll know what he meant by it. . In years to come now they'll life it out and say oh look at it. I think it's how they used to speak in the twentieth century. That's right, in the year nineteen ninety one or whatever, no I thought it was quite, quite good. Yeah. Bit of erm and it's all anonymous and everything so Oh you've got tape, you've got another one? How did you get two? There's some more at college, I haven't got one yet. Oh alright then. somebody else's,got mine . As long as you haven't got one yet, that's alright I'll be back, I'm just going out to the bank. Alright. Family relations in Birkwood that would be an eye opener for her. What? I'll take it home this weekend and record family relations in Birkwood, that'll be an eye opener because like if I read the handicap for him, he talks absolute gobbledegook, that'll be interesting. . . . This is the average family, the nuclear family. . My dad's never called anybody by their proper names so that's what's confusion as well. What's your nickname love? Nobby. Nobby. . What do you get called Nobby for? Nobby Stiles, the little with no teeth. Oh I know , yeah. Don't ask me why, because he's, because he's ugly. Huh. Walter, after Walter because he thinks he looks like Walter . Huh. . I think I'll my desk. I walking round the supermarket erm yeah last night Did you Yeah. and that's what and I completely the checkout girl because I, I know her quite well, we always have to guess the same one, we have a bit of a laugh and I said do you want to be erm part of a national survey on s this English er on spoken English and she said oh, alright, so I said there you are your on . and she said what, pardon, erm, erm what have I got to say . Yeah. . It's much better if you just switch it on and forget about it. Yeah, forget about it. Yeah, that's, that's what I did at, at home. The only thing is then you've got to remember if you, if you have a row or something, to go back and wipe, wipe that bit off . It's obvious with this training thing takes part you know, I've got to move in to the grotty old school room in so . Oh. It should've been Concorde. . Concorde? By rights you know, would you mind moving into Concorde so can have Brunel, I mean I've got I'm, I'd like to say yes I'll do my move into Concorde broom cupboard . But, eh,my not suppose to give up . Yeah Are they stickers over there? Erm, no the only stickers I've got, they've got the number written on. Oh, have they got any sixes on? Erm I need some stickers. Oh, now, somebody had a roll of blank ones,but erm, wonder where they've gone too. Ah Jack's back now we can't nick our money out of her handbag. . . Oh let me . . I think Tony's hogging them all to himself. No, I'm not . oh, here they are, here they are. Ah, right. . . Erm,how did you find the script up here, it was alright was it?. Yeah, not too bad, yeah. No, I know some of it needs re-writing again. Yeah, the first . Yeah. So what I need, because what I tell you to do you see, is in case there's somebody who fix it up and doesn't know, it's all there, but, you know, . too much , yeah, right I'll Did you . Yeah, what I mean I want some time off to be able to re-write properly. . Yeah. Get a smaller strip like that . Yeah. . So could go back to if they wanted too . Yeah, you need too . Yeah, that . That, that makes it easier to work with . Yeah . . Yeah, yeah , no that's a good idea. . Yeah, yeah, ok. . I've got a few prep days coming up actually. . known by a number now. number six for a number one. I don't know if somebody's trying to tell me something, but they've made me number thirteen. . Stuck to the desk so I can't move it. I've got to be careful off is use nine because sixty nine tend to go together don't they ? Oh you are, are you ? . Nine . . . I know. I'm going to run a marathon on Wednesday I'm worried about that, two, two days of packing, I've got funny . Yeah, yeah . I must admit, I think it had been better if they'd moved it all over the weekend and then just put it straight again on the Monday, that would be . I'm, I'm going to find a quiet room because I've got to do some . . I've got first of all start vacancy taking because eh Yeah. I haven't done that before. Well I was thinking there aren't . Yeah. desert a sinking ship. .. We'd miss you wouldn't we Tony? Mm. We'd miss Jackie. Huh, huh. Of course we will.. Oh right,there isn't any more but apparently it's within walking distance, so what we were doing we was all walk over there together in the lunch time so, that's alright really lunch time but it's erm . Yeah. Yeah. Mo Monte Perrie is it?.. I don't know that posh town at all me.. Thank you very much, I'll er send that on .. Sure .. The one she actually cancelled was the one to her family because I'd already cancelled the group one. Oh dear, dear.. Yeah,I saw that in John Lewis, the toy department, she said you forgot to cancel Jameson's. Oh no I didn't I said I I did I was bit embarrassed about doing it because I've already changed it twice, he said well he rang me again I said oh he must of got his records wrong. Hang on what date is it for? It's the twenty third, I said that's on Saturday, he said oh we have got these dates wrong now, I said er what you've cancelled is my personal booking but they ask for a work number you see. Yeah, oh dear. Because holiday he ask me book . yeah, he, he said oh I can just about fit you in, I said oh that's good because otherwise er I said to my friend that will be coming back to her house instead. . No, poor thing, she she . . oh dear. I'm not going to be around on Monday. Aren't you? Why where are you? I'm going to be a I V P. Oh, that's a good excuse. Yeah, that's a good one in't it? . Not much argument of that though. No. I don't think you'd get many volunteers to join you either to be honest. No . . I think moving's better than a week of I V P. Well from my point of view it is, it might not be from yours. . That's ok, I'm not eh, I'm not too uncomfortable with that one. Your alright because there blank, because there blank pieces of paper aren't they, they don't know anything. Mm, yeah, sometimes. Yeah. Sometimes they can Bet you get a few . . .. Yeah Haven't you gone yet? Oh I sort of went home and sort of crashed out in, it's a day of communication on on your own it's quiet tiring,. Huh,and scratch it. . Oh it's like that is it? . Oh Sally had a packet curry each it was very appetizing. . Do you ever get, oh I never do that do you? Yeah. What's for tea -get your own. . I was really, really tired, I was dead tired and , but I always make the tea. Yeah . Did ya? really, really straight forward. Yeah, like your . somebody sit down . Yeah . Don't you? Start make the tea . Yeah . And then I usually have to do the washing up as well. It's there own fought for not being , for not being a bit more assertive I s'pose, but. Right. That's what you get in our house. You do that at breakfast and then you . Oh that's nice, yeah . Really, have a good weekend. Yeah, same too you. Thank you. . Bye. Bye, bye. Think you can afford these chips then Tony? What? . Oh, don't ask me, we normally get tea together. Mm. I get Christine to . Oh,,, bye. can do you now or yeah, eh no, yes that's right so . Alright Tony? Yes thanks Den. and we can take them down to the Christmas school fare. Why? And Mandy and Amanda? And Amanda, I'll have to . . Yes there . In here . And . , until, until, until nine o'clock possibly I think is going to end. I think that's too late Oh. nine, nine o'clock. You let me stay last year. Yeah, but you were at the school last year, you had things to do. I'm gonna have things to do to Your only going to . I'm gonna have two things as well, I'm going and buy stuff and and the pizza. Well alright, I don't, I don't mind, but Nine o'clock right, thank you, bye.. Alright Den? Yes, and you? Yes, fine thanks, oh . . What's going on here then? . Oh.. Oh what is this . Yeah. Er Gary,do you mind . alright, alright, quite everybody, quite, right, who want's to go first? Me, I will Debbie Ah thanks. Piece of cake?. Mummy. Christine, I'm not coming in till nine o'clock, perhaps half past eight, half past eight,I will pick you up as well. What they gonna have at this fair then? Oh well, it's like a stall you get erm but I haven't got a ticket, Becky said you have to pay about ten P to get in. . Oh. But I do . . And then they have stalls and things, but you'll need money to spend there won't you? Yeah. Dad You'll have to take some money with you. Dad Mm, mm. I like your shirt and I like your tie and I like your watch and I like your shoes. Can I have some money? I would like you to let, I would like you to let me go down to the fair. No. . Can I have some money? Some money ? Please yeah please, please. Cor I don't know. Go on, you don't want me to beg do you? Have you had have you had pocket money yet? What's this or something . Er no. Oh, we can let you have the pocket money. Yeah, two pounds. . Ah, but you might off can't remember whether we bought anything yesterday out of your pocket money. Huh? Did we buy that, anything yesterday, yeah, bought some little babies didn't you? Oh, well that the money that I found out my pocket and the payment granny gave me. Oh right. I found one pound ten P in my pocket Mm, mm. and I'm gonna give you a . Den I told mum about your dad last night with . Oh yeah .. Christine you'll have to get your feet down me love I want to sit down.. Shall I shuffle along, do you want to sit on the end? No, I don't mind where I sit as long as I got a seat, ha, ha. Thank you mummy . . Yeah. Oh lot's of people going then? . That, we'll pick you up at half past eight, not nine o'clock, that's a bit too late. The head . Will you have enough to do down there for that length of time Christine? Pardon. Will you have enough to do for that length of time. They got erm Did you take your bottle of milk in this morning before you went ? it's stopped raining and it's not raining or anything. Well there weren't any, didn't have any. No it's not raining. Well you have it might . There be stalls outside if it's not raining , if it rains then they have them indoors. Did you take our milk in this morning? I can't remember. Well there's two lots there Crates there , but no milk. There's two in, in your, in your, in your, your er a fridge, and I thought it might . I normally bring that . So I picked up the thing with an empty bottle and put it in the, on the kitchen. I normally bring the crate in. Well it was marked for one and there was no milk, there was no er, there was an empty bottle in the thing, but no milk, as long as he don't charge you for . What they telling her off for? Cos they've been worried with the press in the hospital . Dad phoned me up twice from your house this morning and couldn't get no answer here, he said, I was sat here so I can here the phone go, anyway he went around again later on, tried it, and it was alright then. Don't what it was. Weren't that funny? Also in dad's last night said sat up watching the gold fish and he said oh I'll, I'll give you, I'll give you a tank and I'll get some fish on Sunday. So what did she sa did you say? Well she didn't think he was serious,he was, so were gonna have to phone up tonight and say look, no fish. Mm. Oh well not, you can't get them to fit? No I can't, I can get a size eleven. Mm, mm . But I've got a very high in-step you see.. Oh, so they don't fit across the front. Is that you bought last night? No. Similar to that though in it? Yeah. Well when I finally chuck out these brown ones what I wear every day. Well you've got another pair of brown ones upstairs you could wear as well, you've got a new pair of brown ones upstairs I know. and you've got a pair of black shoes ain't you? Yeah. Got any others? No, so I was gonna say, I, I, go up to the shop up Kingswood see if they had any cheap up there. No, it'll take a while Yeah . it'll come suddenly. What all you need know is a polishing off. Mm. You know, you, it's, that's what it is it's getting the flow Yeah. and that takes the one off Erm, but, he sorted something out for me, I, I said, cos of course now Carry on drying your hair can you? You've got it all . Yes of course, you carry on drying your hair. erm, so what happens now, is that er I'm coming off the er, coming off the clutches as before the corner Yeah. and if it's a tight one, and you're going round it in first, really tight one, then what you need to be doing really is slipping the clutch Yeah. if it's really tight, slipping the clutch in first and what I'm trying to do is I'm trying to control it on the accelerator, you can't do it. You'll be able to, but you can't at the moment. Mm. And that And it's much easier to try and control it on the clutch. Yeah. So he s , I said to him is it alright, says am I in danger of coasting if I've got my foot on the if, if I'm taking the corner in first and I'm slipping and I got the clutch, I'm using the engine but I've, not much Yeah. and he said oh no that's not coasting. No. It's only if you've got the clutch right in. Yeah. But, erm,in second my foot should be flat on the floor. He took me round that blooming Argyle Road three times. Oh, the horrible corner. Yeah, cos I told that was one, I said that's, that's the one I, I over slowed on my test. Yeah. And he's told me that it's first gear, right. Yeah. So what I was doing I was coming into it, I was coming in too fast for the gear, not too fast for the corner, but too fast for the gear. Yeah. Shoving it in, shoving it into first, bring the clutch up quickly and the car goes weer and virtually stops Yeah , yeah, yeah . so it wasn't the fact I was trying to lose too much speed, it was that I changed into first and didn't have Enough revs on the engine to keep it going enough revs on the engine , he'd be going and when I lift, raised the clutch, whereas if I had brought the clutch up part way The car would of slowly slowed down to be at the speed that the engine Yeah . was going on, yeah yeah. Well as I actually had to going round the corner, to get myself round the corner, I had to come off the brake and onto the accelerator Yeah. to actually get myself round the corner. Yeah. Yes, because you see,, I don't remember, I, I think I take that one in second you see. Mm. But, I took it, I, he said well try it and we went round it in first and I went and it went rrah Yeah. and, and, so erm, we er, then I came round and I did it in second, he said there you went too wide there Yeah. you came close to the white line. Yeah. Yes, course there's always a car parked on the corner isn't it?. There's always a car parked on the corner . I must admit I'd always cheat at that corner, when I'm coming up to it, I don't do it suddenly Mm. I'm then coming up to it, I move fractionally out into the road yeah. then you've got more room to get round If you sit glued to the pavement it's a hell of a job to get round Mm. whereas if your fractionally out further into the road it's easier to, got slightly different I didn't have that excuse because there's a car parked before the turning oh, so you've had to get out I had to be out wide and then turn in yeah. and there's a car on the opposite side of the road as you turn in aha, so you go outside work and then round and ha, ha, oh You'll get it. But, that slipping the clutch is blimey useful. It is. I beginning to find how useful, cos I can keep the revs going Yeah. When, when I'm not sure what's happening, and people are sort of weaving about and things like that, you can use that and you can just tick over and your ready to move if you need to and you can stop quite quickly if you need to as well. Yeah, yeah, I see. I mean, we've, I've, there was a situation these are the roads he's taking me around now, he had me reverse round the corner which was practically blind, couldn't see what was round the corner, so I was edging round, and it was on a hill so I had to do it, every time I stopped I had to put the handbrake on so I didn't roll Yeah. And edging round the corner, checking all ways, there was a parked car, there's a van parked the opposite side of the road so anything turning in had to come over into my, the path of me Yeah. and a, coming out of that there were some cars parked, some other cars trying to drive through, I was coming out trying to turn right, there was another car waiting to turn left, and he couldn't come in cos I was coming out. Yeah. So I had to drive out past him, pull over to the other side of the road as much as possible to let him come through and the other cars come through, then I could come . Yeah. And doing that, to have the clutch sort of half way up in first you just sort of, you just you need help , sort of kick on and it's quite nice and you've got it all under control and if you get a chance to go you can and if you've got to stop it's no problem. yeah And then I got myself in a knot cos there was a car coming up the road Yeah between a lot of parked cars and there was a, I was coming down the road and all I needed to do was to actually stop where I was cos there was enough room on his side of the road for him to come past the parked car and round me Yeah. I sort off, parked car there and I came up and he had room to do that Yeah. and what I did was, there was a gap here, and I drove into the gap nose first, and I did do a hell of a lot of steering to get myself out Yeah, but that means that they still do occasionally Yeah. I mean, that, very, very occasionally you'll do something and you'll think, erm why didn't I do that you think that's stupid, you know , and you think oh. yeah . There's no need, no need to do that he said. No, occasionally I'll do something like that mind you . There's plenty of room, yeah there's plenty of room for him to get passed in. Yeah I was annoyed, up at Christine's school the other day, I was waiting for Anita, and there's driveways all along that road Mm, mm. so there's stops where you can park on those Yeah driveways, it was pouring down with rain one day so I was going up to meet her and we, I'd got up there, I've learnt now, I leave home at quarter past three if it's raining mm. I go up to meet Anita, anyway you can get a parking space up there, so I've turned, drove up there they say I haven't left as early, it was while I was learning Yeah. when the erm, so it, a car parked across a drive and a car, the car behind him which was in a space was going Mm. and it was in quite a big space, I could off got in behind him and then changed if I'd reversed in but when I saw this other chap sat in his car and then he indicated he wanted to pull out, so I let him go Mm. Then I drove into his space well then somebody else came and drove in behind me and the car in front then was sort of, oh yeah, then somebody else came and reversed in in front of him, so the car in front it was across the drive was boxed in by this time, I didn't box him in I just No . parked behind, but then somebody else came and parked in front of him, and he was there and sort, you could see him looking you know, he looked at the driveway and he looked, he was looking in his rear view mirror and then he turned round and looked like this, then he looked at the front, and he was thinking my god I can't get out of here, and all of a sudden a little car comes up the road stops, goes beep, beep on the horn, wanna get in the drive, this bloke went ha, ha, ha, ha and he couldn't do anything . So, so, he looked, he looked round at me, he looked at the the other group waiting in front and he was, he flashed his lights at them so that, they realised what was going on by then, they moved forward a bit , I moved back a bit and he just had enough room he reversed right up close to me and then got out but he just had enough room to get out, and since then I won't park over the driveway up there, cos you can bet your life the one driveway along that road and you parked in front is the one that somebody wants to get into. Ah . Yeah. Oh right, I'd better go actually. Mother eh be er complaining. Yeah, okay. Where have you been, you said half past three. Well it's twenty five to four, what does that . It'll be twenty to by the time I get round there.. Better do this washing up hadn't I? I can't I'd put believe it when he took the . I put in for the eh, my driving test again. Oh good. Okay. Good, good. Sometime in the New Year now. What date did you put on the form, not before Well he's put a month from the last test. Mm. Well you won't have it around Christmas, after between Christmas and the New year . No , no. It'll be erm, January time I suppose . I, I said to him I, I don't want, I know I can't have a test soon, but I don't really want another one that soon. No but now all that your doing is polishing your drive better off Mm. unfortunately that can be a very painful business Mm. Depends Yeah. You might find it easy Yeah. easier. What But. we doing tomorrow? Tomorrow well, trainee to wash and a hoover Mm. This is yet, Tesco's open as well, we've lost our Yeah. little driving spaces now. Yeah, okay. Masterline's open,are open. Yeah, so I can't You can have a drive round actually, round by the Coca Cola factory there maybe somewhere Mm. you can go. I think I, what, what I'm thinking is that this sort of are there's er any, any driving would be good Yes it would. No matter what I do. Yeah. But checking this slipping the clutch in first. Yeah. Cos, when you try, if you try and control it on the accelerator it's very, it's really jerky Yeah. or it's very difficult to keep it smooth Yeah . I won't say it's really jerky, but it I can do it, but I've been driving for two and a half years Yeah, yeah and then it's I And I can only just do it Yeah It's very, I mean the foot control is very, very . And it's so much easier to put some reeves on than use the clutch . It is. It is . But then again, you've got to feel a bit careful there because it can misconstrued totally Mm. if, but I mean if your obviously doing it and you more moving the clutch up and down Mm. then fair enough. Mm. You know? He said something and I couldn't make sense of it What did he say? because he said that when I came into that corner I pulled in I'd slowed too much and then had to drive round, drive round the corner with my left foot flat on the floor and I thought oh, shouldn't your left foot be flat on the floor when you corner and that's probably what he was getting at, as I could off been slipping the clutch. Yeah But when he said it, I thought oh I thought I had to have my left foot flat on the floor when I cornered, cos in second you have too. Yeah. In second it's cut and dry Yeah. You've got to have your foot flat on the floor before you corner. That corner is an absolute horrible Yeah I know. it does, on the corner Yeah and that one you've got to drive it definitely than most corners Yeah. so you, you can't treat that as an ordinary left handed turn, No. it is very But if you can't cope with it. You've got to be able to cope with it . You've got to be able to cope with it. Yeah. But you've got to treat it as a special case Yeah. and you've got to No, I , I won't tell you how I was taught to do it because I was taught to do it very differently. Mm. I was taught to do it in first and use the accelerator. Mm. You know. Yeah. Mm so, cos he said it'll help. Help with your accelerator control . With your accelerator control , yeah . So it's diff of course there's courses giving yeah , instructors different ways of teaching you. yeah. He said You , you need fine control on the clutch , Mm , but you also need it on the accelerator as well yeah. and he said well, okay, with your reversing and everything else your getting the front control on the clutch So yeah this will help you to do it on your do it on your accelerator accelerator. whereas So, I, I finding the control on the accelerator difficult yeah in first, erm, and I've got some fine control on the clutch and I can use that to deal with that particular corner. Yeah. Perhaps. Yes. That's just what he's saying. Yeah. Yeah. Any rate. Yeah. See you later then. Yeah.. I see you later than, oh where's the car keys I had them on the . There we are, I was hiding them with my hand. Yeah, I know, do you want a cake or is it not too naughty? Christine can you turn that volume down a bit, it's up too high. . Yes you want to take it . . do your hair. Bye. Bye. Where is it? . Oh yeah. . No, but it's near Where about's in where about? I don't know it's not far away. I wish I could go there . It's landed. Has it? Yeah. Do you know, do you know where it is? Not really , anyway I'm gonna get started, ok. Hello. Hello. There's a cauliflower and a bag of potatoes left, ok . Ok, I'll go and get them. It's alright, I'll go and get them. Ok.. Oh. I read the instruction again about this thing. Yeah. It actually says record all your conversations. Oh, are you? I don't know how that all worked with work, because erm, they may not want me too. Well, you can't do it if they, if they don't want you to So er, that's right, I'll check You can do what you can do I'll check it out with the manager. Yeah see what he means? Yeah. I'm gonna take mum out on Monday Yeah. And were gonna get some more Christmas stuff on Mm, mm. and a few drinks. Ah, that sounds ok . And chocolate, you know what I mean? Your gonna take the stamps? Yeah. Right. Sorry I've been a while, I went into mum's to take her shopping in and Uncle Philip was there. That's alright . Oh right. And having, seeing as we see him so rarely now Mm. I ah, look, don't say anything to Christine . Ok. and I bought those, because you know Jane came up? Yeah. and she ate two of the vegetable ones Mm, mm . well there's two left in there and that's not enough for you and I Right. so I thought we could have two, one of those each and five fingers. Yeah, ok. So . You know I dug the information out again, I've had a read through of it, and it actually says, were asked just to record all your, all your conversations. Yeah. So it's not for me to sort of sit quietly and listen to, record other people, so it's my conversation they want. Yeah. Well it's other people as well I think, but, I believe you don't have to sit down conversation on your on do you?. No, not very often. unless there's something seriously wrong Where, unless somebody's fallen asleep or something has bored somebody to death. . Erm, now what am I doing?. You don't want one of these do you? Yes I do, that's why I put the kettle on. Right aha. Erm, I better put these in the freezer for now hadn't I? Yeah. Cos were not going to do Christine's two straight away. No,hot dogs tonight so do you mind having eh No not at all. right, I'll light the oven. Mm. Give it a chance to warm up, we needn't put it in for a bit. No. Sorry I was a long time I didn't That's alright. Eh started chatting told him you've got a photograph of for you. Aha. He said when were moving her bedroom around, if he, if we give him a shout he'll come over and help. Oh, that's helpful . Cos of taking the wardrobe of it and what have you. Right , yeah. I must admit I would be grateful cos if anything goes wrong You can't get it back together . can't get it back together Yeah . It'll be shameful to ask her Yeah. And then were, were, sort of D I Y . Yeah. Ooh, and mum also Mm, mm. this, you know with been thinking of Chris Causeway at the erm place too go. Mm, mm M F I. Mm. And it's, it's the colour she wants, and not only has she got drawers, but she's got shelves down that side as well. Yeah, that looks good. Look at . Yeah I know M F I isn't far from er you. No,. There was a M F I along There isn't any more it was right opposite me. Oh it's gone ah, right. it's not there any more. Ok. But we can get her, that Christine Christine. Yeah. Come and see, you know originally you wanted a white desk, not a black one. Yeah. Do you like the look of that with book shelves down the side there? Yeah. Yeah, you've got three doors which is more storage space than the other one, cos the other one only had a cupboard down had no drawers, what's the matter? Doesn't like it, you prefer the other one? Yeah, I do. It's just that you, your better of space if you have that one and you can books down there or on them whatever you want too and if you had that one, you'd be able to have a, erm another cupboard as well probably. Is it cheaper? Well . It's only cheaper because it's in a sale, it's been reduced down from forty pounds, it was forty pounds before. No, if, if she didn't like it then we Well you can go and have a look if you like A . If you don't like it it's up to you . No I'm . What's up? Nothing. What's up? there is, we can tell, what's the matter? Tell us. I like that one and now you've put me in a difficult position cos I like that one, have that one, but I like the lockable cupboard on the other one. Lockable cupboard? there isn't a lockable cupboard . Yes there is . Yes there is . Is there. Yeah . Yeah . Yeah, but the other one, remember it was a choice of two wasn't it? I thought we were getting her the one with the drawers one with a lockable cupboard is, Well , is a bigger one. is a bigger one. Yeah I thought we were getting her the one, but the only thing is the other has got drawers both sides hasn't it? if I remember rightly. Just one side I tell you what, let's take you, don't do that, or you'll break it off, let's take you and you can have a look at this one. Why do you want a lockable cupboard?we don't well it's very , so why do you need a lockable cupboard? Cos I just need one, I just like it Well I don't think that one will fit in your bedroom in any case, having looked at the size of the wardrobes and the site of the gap that you've got. No it was the other one, with the t , with the drawers that, that would er That we thought was best Smaller one Well let's have a think, we'll, we'll have a think and then have a look, if we go up there it's a huge furniture place, they won't have just one they'll have more than one ok? How about that? Yeah. I said, they won't just have one designer desk will they? No, we'll have a look around, and see what they've got. If they just furniture ok, whereas Argos do a lot of other things as well, so if we take you over there you can have a look see if there's anything you really fancy. I know it's awful making you actually have to decide for yourself . I, I . I like the one with the lockable cupboard door, but I like that one as well. I don't think that one will fit in . Yes. If they took out one of these drawers and have a lockable cupboard I'd have it no questions. Yeah, well let's go and have a look, ok. Mm. Don't make up your mind one way or the other, cos were have to take our tape measure. that bit of icing. No. What's that? Go on. She's after h , our cake . Have a gingerbread man. I want some icing. There's icing on the gingerbread man, your not . . After our cake is she? She's asked for the icing of off our cake not our cake and she's not having it. Do you want a gingerbread man with your cup of tea? . Oh, told you, got to eat all her dinner, oh, wow, gee Well, she had a chocolate biscuit, she had one of those snack things and an orange chocolate biscuit Mm. and I said well if you have that now, you better eat your dinner. Ah. And that was well erm,ha about an hour ago now. I see, torturing that child again aren't you?. That's right, I've been exceedingly cruel to her. Childline, Childline Den got us a Hovis loaf it looks than the other one. Mm. Now . Mm to have a gingerbread man if you want it otherwise let daddy Oh what's this Bedknobs and Broomsticks? Yeah, on tape You know this ah, it's the, the actual letter says we would like you to do, what we would like you to do is to record all your conversations with other people except telephone conversations over a, over a one week period, erm, but that's, that's not, doesn't quite,just need to record as much as I can. Yeah. Which is fair enough, that's what I'll do . I just wondered why I heard a noise,the gerbils running . Oh, yeah . That's right. It doesn't say anything about background noise or anything. No. So,television's on, radio's on or something. . Yeah. .I love that cat. Mm, wow. They must off worked on that cat for hours to get into the . Got Jaws the Revenge on at quarter too eight. Mm, mm . There's a choice between that and the Royal Variety Performance, no choice at all is there? At all is there . .. It didn't get a very good in the book. Didn't it? No. What, the erm the film or the Tape. Mm for children. Yeah. might be different. That's right, so we'll have a look at it shall we? Mm That was second tape is it that one? Yeah, second tape . It actually says that it, to only tell people if they ask what your doing. Cos if people know there being recorded they tend to I must admit I wondered. Mm. Because, it gets ridiculous and everyone gets very into what there saying. Yeah. You know, and they long conversation with each other were they get used to it. Mm, yeah Oh it says in here explain what you are doing when you are recording the conversation you will need to explain to the other people involved what you are doing and why. Mm, mm. Ah, it maybe that after the conversation has finished unless they ask you directly what you are doing. That's what I, that's what I said, yeah and they say that if your just walking around, unless your actually on your own Yeah. Mm, pardon me, it's just, it, it pays just to run it, just to keep it going continuously I must admit you'll get through the tapes a lot quicker that way won't you? Yeah. I mean, I mean, one word were usually talking same . Yeah. Oh, Big is on. Big. Big. . Yeah on Wednesday Tom Hanks and Elizabeth Perkins, a twelve year . Yeah. A twelve year old makes a wish at a fair ground fortune telling booth that he could be big, and the next morning his astonished to find that he's fully grown . Mm. In the adult world he finds success at work and discusses romance, but soon learns that being a grown up is not all that's it cracked up to be . It's a two hour film on Wednesday night. . Yeah, eight o'clock. Oh good. It's got Tom Hanks isn't it? Yeah. and he changed places That's right. . Mm, mm. but they . the twelve year old Ah, you got the Drowning Pool on again. Sorry the Drowning The Drowning Pool, that's Paul Newman and, and Janet erm, Joanne Woodward, that's the one where you get trapped in this place and it's filling with water. I don't remember every seeing it. They get trapped in a place and there, it's filling with water and they, they've gotta get them, they gotta, they gonna drown because it's filling with water and they gotta get out, get out before the room fills with water completely. I don't remember seeing that. Oh, it's a very good film record it. It's on Friday night. I haven't done the dusting. Oh, terrible. But, huh. . But, erm, I have done the hoovering. Had a calculator like that mum Ha, ha, ha, ha. Oh dear Oh, that's wicked Oh dear, I think I'm, I think I getting a bit boring. Boring, why ? Mm , that's a bit , a bit up in it?. What's he mean? Don't know why you laugh at it then ,. Yeah What's he mean mummy Oh Did you see out the dressed up in, as a strawberry. Oh. He said he , a big strawberry . Oh, they have lots of , yeah ah. Oh oh, got his nose tucked under his wing. Ah. And it was the family with the amazing flame dog . oh dear He's got your jumper on. Oh god. Who has? I'll never wear it again now. . Who has? Who has? Tony Blackburn is wearing daddy's jumper, you see when he opens the . What red one? No. No, there's grey one with the leather bits under the front. Go on, smile. I'm , hope not, I put that back,one,now give me a certain country where . Just say any . Er four . You've got half of them over there, cos that's a . . There's some under there, you haven't got them all in there. I know. Well that's cheating. put them there. What . . In't that rotten, there got a thing, there got people voting, ringing in and voting to see whether they want Willy Thorn or John Virgo to go in the gunge tank. Anyway . . John Virgo's winning at the moment, if winning's the right word. . I'm er I'm gonna erm, I might see if I can record some conversation on a bus, but I don't know. Jack. Sorry. If I get Jack and somebody on the bus I might pop my hand inside my brief case and press the recorder where's that cameraman hid then? oh it's built into the dashboard, yeah she's She's trying to be very nice and she's really fuming Have you er finished with your tea? I get you another Never mind when you come to . Yeah, look forward to that . I'm not erm, I'm not going to be in a situation to record all my chat anyway, I don't think, because of the erm, the amount of it, when I'm running a course I do an awful lot of chatting during the day. Yeah, well I mean even if you recorded as much as you can, if, you've got twenty tapes Yeah. so you've got plenty of er Yeah. I mean, when if you . And also I don't , I don't want it to be a barrier either. No, well the thing is you, to be honest you forget about it don't you? You do, yeah. Just explain and see what people say. Mm. If anybody asks us, you can tell them. Yeah. I'll have a quick, I have a word with Pauline on Monday see what she says. Yeah. And the thing is do, information about then if it procedures for fraud, that's the problem. That was brilliant.. We can record us going to work and coming home and on weekends . And erm conversations erm at At lunch time . lunch time tea break time, things like that. Yeah. Yeah. But, you can have ask Pauline see what she says, but Mm But, erm, actually it would be probably be nice for you if you could record it in your training session because you can take in your pocket and sometimes you, you can get a better idea of how it's Mm, yeah. How you sound and how it goes if you can Mm. do you know what I mean? Yeah. If light bulb . The light bulbs gone. that one went the other night . Oh dear, isn't that rotten? He's got little shorts on. Yeah. Do you want to play a game with me? Well, well, what, what we've got to go and put the dinner in my darling. I gotta get your dinner. . Oh you poor thing.. . You can hear it all of us . What you, what you want to play patience? No. Pairs? No, shuffle them. Did you? Er, ok, you tell me again. . Well I'm sorry Christine I've got to go and get dinner. Yeah. Grandma's be around here in about an hour. The only reason I can er play is that, your dinner won't take very long to get. you always , it's difficult when were sat down doing nothing you don't ask. Can you change your game, so you can play it with thr with two? No, what you do Mm, mm. is erm, well you do it, you've got one Joker in pack right, and you mix them up and you deal them out and you look at your cards, if you've got a Joker Mm. Yeah. Yeah then, then you, everyone's got to mix up there cards again Mm. You've got to put them in the order so you can see him, but the other person can't Mm. and you've got to pick someone to choose out your card, and they don't know if you've got the Joker or not Mm, mm. and they've got to pick one of the cards and they might get the Joker. Right, I see. But, the trouble is you can tell who's got the Joker when there's two, because if you haven't, you know the other person has. Yeah. But if you've got more than one person then it's harder. Mm, we could play pairs if you like. Snap? Yeah, can play snap. I put the same cards oh and we can play . Well, I won't, I'll play one game with you and then I'll go and get your tea alright? So. I got some more rolls, so I'll put them in er big bag straight away, yeah . Ok. With got a few, with got a few left? Better take the foil tray off the pipe. I had to put one in the microwave .. Yeah doesn't do it oh I'll be bother if I get a cold next week. Oh yeah. . Even if Henry's there, well he can't come in today,panic . Panic , yeah. As were already stretched to the limit with er And moved in on Monday. That's right, there moving on Monday. Oh you won't be able to come in any day with me next week will you? Not in. Won't be able to come in with me any day I thought that was . No you didn't, it's preferably alright oh, right Dad. Mm, mm Oh . We know . Yeah I know. . Oh, I'll empty that in a minute I must admit I don't fancy trying to do it, it's going to be really cold and horrible. Well, with got to . Mm. Once you got actually watching . Yeah. It's not too bad is it? Got to do as well still. Oh one of the women in work said we had eh a bit of bad news, she's really, really nice, I get on ever so well with her. Mm, mm. And she works for erm and Yeah. Her husband erm, had a stroke Oh. or something forty five. Oh, it's young isn't it? Yeah. And she is so liked . Mm But we, I thought I hadn't seen her around you know, because we, because of what I do Mm. with the National Health, then I have a lot, more contact with her than with most other groups. Yeah. There always referring stuff to us, were always referring stuff to them, do you know what I mean? Yeah. You better not of scratched that door. I only just let him in. Ben It's raining. Oh. Come on Ben, oh come here, come here, come on,. No you're not going to go But she's a really nice person, I ruined her Christmas . How bad was it? Is he Well we don't know any details yet, I think he's, he's off work . Yeah. When did he have it did she say? Last week, some time. So he's obviously been incapacitated in some way. Well he's in hospital . Oh, alright, if he's in hospital then it must be pretty Forty five it's no age is it? No Put a bit of kitchen roll on the table. Yeah ok, so it won't slip round Christine. Yeah. Your tea's ready. Alright Oh. They look nicer don't they, there thicker. Mm. Might as well go in for a bit because . Yeah . Christine your tea. Go and get your tea. Alright , alright. There you are. Ooh, crinkles, oh you got them, you got the crinkled ones. Yes . Oh there pretty kilts on there. I was just thinking I wonder how my erm, what a do about choir practice this week. Mm. . Take it with you I'm not recording ca choir practice. , you won't want to hear you blow a thing. That's not conversations is it? No. I suppose I a better mention it too Pauline, only I was thinking if I did just conversations, could also do the domestics. appointment . And then not record anything to do with the procedures, although there are some things that will probably be ok to record. Yeah, that's it, I mean, you, you've got to job,. Yeah. . Question, of whether I ask Pauline, or I whether I just do it. Yeah I mean she probably would be wise to mentioned it to her. Yeah. Cos if she saw you with it on Mm. doing, running her lecturers Mm. she might get what she's doing you know. Yeah. So it would probably be better to mention it to her, but say you'll be discreet, not record anything that . Yeah. I mean there are certain things like, the general conditioners to benefit, which erm, are alright, but there are other things that I know about and that I will pass on to people to look out for that I wouldn't want eh, that you wouldn't want eh, erm, outsiders to know. dinner a be ready. Oh, right. Was that nice Christine? Mm I'm wasting my life exercising tonight as well Mm. Even if I've got to do them when mum and dad gone home. Yeah. open the oven door and jump back . yeah. back to front is it? Do you want a roll? No I don't think, Ok. Not now, later, later. Alright. That's so funny, that chap's got a, he has got erm, an Indian accent with a Welsh accent on top,it's really . , yeah Interesting Pauline at work, she's ever so hurt, couldn't get over it, she came up to me the other day she said, hello, how long has it been we haven't seen one another for two months . Oh, oh yes, cos she, wasn't she She was in it in India. India. For That's right. three weeks, four weeks. Mm. Er, no I was on holiday for a week Mm, mm. Then while I was away she went on holiday straight after. Yeah No it was our summer holiday, I went off for two weeks, when I came back Paula was off for a month. Mm, mm. Then, since then, with me being sick that time and what have you, she was in Cornwall the week her, the couple of weeks I was in Yeah. visiting, so just haven't seen one another at all it was really annoying. . yeah . . Mm. I can't imagine her getting . She's got here tremendously fast cos she won't be staying that long. No, good ones move on so fast don't they? Yeah. I'm finished . That's why we tend to stay where we are . Oh, no she could go anytime, she says what, what will happen there'll inspectors are put on a register Yeah. and I mean there aren't many, in our place with got about ooh, twenty or thirty in Yeah. but there's only five principal inspectors, and she's got principal inspector grade Mm. now Yeah. so, when she moves that'll be it we just won't see her any more. Mm. Funny, ha, ha, ha. Can I have the salt please Christine? There's two more inspector's I must admit. He keeps there opinion about Oh. . Mm. Very moody Yeah. so if his going his way that's fine Mm. if not, look out. So That look's quite simple, aha, that's not Mummy . Oh, Brian took me round that corner, right, slowed down too much Yeah. he took me round that corner for three times today. . Ev , and, he'd say oh turn left here and all that and then you'll be going along and I'd think oh You'd be coming at it again I'm coming up to it again, he says turn left up ahead, I think ,and here we go . Oh dear That bit was rude,. , he . Mm, mm. . Mm. You know that balloon he gave, it landed in erm, pass field. Oh. Show gran to see where it was. Ah,. I bet there was loads of people down there. Yes, more coming all the time. Mm. He must dread that. Perhaps I missed it, it had about twelve people in it. Twelve people. It's a huge balloon, absolutely huge. I didn't think they took that many They said what's that, what's that, it's margarine every single bit right, and was wearing the balloon it was in his eyes. Aha, ha. Tony. Yeah what, what's he doing? . Oh ha. Chasing dots alike. . There going loopy. I think this recorder must be, it adjust the level automatically. Does it? Mm. Can we watch a film tonight mum? If I cough or something it goes quite for a little while then comes back again. Oh. Erm, there's Jaws on Christine. Oh. Jaws the Revenge. Oh. Is it? Yeah. We see what it's like, and if it's not very good we'll watch something else. I Oh this is going to be interesting Oh got to . I nearly got involved in that at one time, I's about You . yeah, I's about ten like that, when I was about eleven Mum I thought There's a metallist girl who was interested in it, she wanted me to be her partner mm, went along once or twice but I've got a two left feet. Weren't impressed. No. No. I've got a hour. Mm. Becky said oh no, no , oh I thought . Mm. .. That's an audition then. That's a She said at the . Mm, mm. One girl there, she's in our group she had brilliant , really good singing voice. Mm. Brilliant. You have a go your self? Yeah. So is it you say no, have to she showed up . Mm, mm. . Wow, what you doing then? What is it? It's a play. Is it? Aha, yeah. Mm. Well she was a dancer, but eh . Well, she's a dancer, singer all sorts acting You have to work hasn't she? Raise me foreheads be careful there. Yeah, strong. Ya, straight on the floor. Mm. She had her foot up touching his ears, he had his ear like that. I must admit I was never very good at dancing but, I was good at catching. and they dropped you yes . Never dropped anyone. But, just that you couldn't keep up with them . Step on there feet, yeah. . . . . lift me up, lift me up and I went back and I went back and I, I fell . Mm. Was she . I know but she still lives there,drop me then, she dropped me . Oh save him a bit of it. No. Ah I've forgotten his chip, his looking all Cos you've eat it all. Yes, yes. You've been cruel. Oh. . Your licking your lips and you haven't got a chip have you? Go on dad Got one, say thank you.. . Aha, cup of tea? Ok. Oh aren't they lovely? What the jugs? The jugs yeah. Didn't see them properly. They were like bunches of oranges and lemons Oh. if you know what I mean Yeah I know. . In ceramic? Yeah A what? A Pocket T V. Pocket T V. . A radio, the the cuddly toy er Good grief she's got a good memory. The coffee maker, the the er God, she, she was brilliant. She got an awful lot of things didn't she? There's a really good game we did at, at Rammore for remembering people's names. Yeah. And they, it was a bit frightening because we were in a group of seventeen and see what I mean when, I mean how it starts is like if were starting with me, I have to say I'm Tony, right, and then you would say I'm Jackie and this is Tony and then Christine would say I'm Christine this is Jackie, this is Tony, I was at the end of a group of seventeen and I had heard it sort of, you hear it, it builds up round the room Yeah. We've had a game like that . So that you can in the end, when I came to do it, although it was seventeen people I didn't find it too difficult. No, cos you just remember the order that you went round the room in and . That's right, well no, these were people and, some of the people I knew, some of the people I hadn't met before. Ah. Daddy. And so I had to sort of go round the room and say I'm Tony and this is, and go all round, and I got round the room. . Yeah. So you did quite well. But I was surprised that I got round the room, cos I'm awful at remembering names I think I'm gonna have to try and Dad do we have to we have to come up with a name. Mm. With a first name, so I said her and Chris Oh yeah The man said . Mm. Erm, but, we had a, that was, that was quite good, but I must, there's a trick to remembering names, and that is that you use it all the time, so any time, if you want to remember somebodys name, every time you see them you say hello and there name Yeah. and that sort of imprints it on you. Yes. Cos I've noticed there is an awful lot of people do that to me. Yeah. I'm terrible for people's names Mm. I'm absolutely hopeless. Places, I can tell you I know somewhere looking at them and I think where do I know you from Yeah. Names ooh. Yeah. And that, that can be difficult in training because you see so many people and they spend the week looking at you and they've got one name to remember, but you've got eight or twelve names to remember Yeah. and you see them a three weeks later and they say hello Tony and you think hello, who the hell are you?. My watch is breaking up. Breaking up. Yeah. What the strap? No, the case. , oh, the case. , fit this in already,so, you know the other side. . Where the strap goes into the case. The other side, the Oh oh I see. See the bit lifting? Yeah, I can. Missing a little bit missing bit further along as well. Daddy I thought . What you doing . Erm, I think if they killed a shark Well they yeah, they, they killed Jaws about . Yeah, but there's an awful lot of sharks about. Yeah, but they reckon that this is the same shark,he's killed twice now. Well it was killed in Jaws. It was killed in the second one as well. But there's lots of great white . Cos this is the fourth film. Yeah, I know, it was killed in the one where it got trapped in the . That's right. And it was killed in the first one, that was two . Yeah . But, there's thousands and thousands of great . Oh, I don't know how people can eat fish like that. No, I can't, it'll, if you don't take the head of it I can't eat it, I couldn't even, I have prawn cocktail and you have a prawn, they put, they put a prawn on top whole, I couldn't eat that, I could have peeled it, I looked at it and I thought about it, no, I can eat them when there done Yeah but not. but not when there not done Oh remember when I was squeezing that . I haven't heard a word of this so far. Sorry. Not a single word . It looks really weird seeing Christmas and it's hot and they can go swimming and . Yeah . That's right. I really don't think I'd like that Christmas and it's cold toesie's Mm. Yeah, pretty odd thing . That's right. I like . Yeah. . Mm. Is that a mechanical one? Yeah. . . When they were doing the first picture they had, I think it was. Yeah. And it . Mm. Do you know mummy . do you know when the come up on the side, that from . And your be Guy. Did she go along with a friend? horses. What? It was a question of and it's a little Tell her about . Mm . Ah .. You sneezing Rene? . Sneezing? Yeah I've been doing that today as well. Good if I get a cold cos I got erm training course next week. Five days of non-stop talking. You'll have to to get one over . Mm. . I tried to, er, I told I got criticised for slowing down too much, going into a corner on my dr driving test, I told Brown which corner it was, he took me round there three or four times to s today on my lesson, yeah, we'll keep doing it till you get it right . The only way Tony. That's right. . Oh pardon me. You were looking a bit sorry for yourself when we came back cos he buys flowers and he gives , so he'll buy them the day before, I got the next day, there their making in all that Stop what? Stop the bus . Do you have a recording on there? It . Mm. Cos, is it ? Yeah. Oh look, aha, oh my god That big . Now that is fake, who world. Yeah. Yeah. got a large one . . Come on Ben. If I lo , if I sit out there looks, looking sorry for myself then somebody will take me . When was, what's the matter with you?. Oh is he related then to er Beryl. That chap with the curly hair. Yeah . Well that's his brother. He's the brother . Oh right. the one who got killed, he's the police chief's son. He's the brother . Right. And she's the police chief's wife. Ok. And her mother. Yeah. So she's now lost her husband and one son and he's the other son. Yeah, got it, ok to work the way he the other ones. . Th this shark has got nine lives I think. Yeah. Could be it's brother . Christine, you've got a quarter of an hour and then you go out on the table, cos that dinner is going anywhere I am going to I think if Michael Caine's played a part of a toy- boy . Well he's hardly a toy-boy. Erm ,, no I don't think he's a toy-boy. About the same age ha, ha. Well I didn't know that, I only asked. No, a toy-boy is where you've got an old lady with a fif there's about a twenty year old bloke . Boy , yeah . Mm. A toy-boy is . Granddad is that a toy-boy or a . Jack Give me five. Michael . Really. Yeah, O R E somebody else is sure they knew , oh great. Do you say . . Oh. When were watching television and nobody's talking much there's not much point is that? No point no, we could take Ben out, but there won't be much point is there? No, unless somebody comes with me. All you'll say is sit, stay, there's a good boy . Yeah, you've got to do it with the right inflect as well. Yes. There's a good boy . . There's a slightly response too. Yeah it is Billy told me there would, that's what makes a . Yeah. . What other day those Christmas cards, there a little bit disappointing you know. Are they? There nice designs, but there not very big but some of them are really tiny. Oh. But they are nice . Well. There handy work. Yes. The little ones. That's just what I was gonna say . There pretty cards. Mm. But some of them are really small. Mm. . I don't know half the people in area office to send them cards. They say in that thing that you don't want half conversations. Half conversations? Yeah, if you think you might come to the end of a conversation before you reach the end of the tape, they've rather you put a new tape in . . Mm, ok, yeah, thank you dad. I suppose You can have it back actually. No I don't . It was only erm to show Tony that, there. sorry, put it in the erm put it in the cage, first thing I built. Yeah. Put in he's bedding. Yeah I ask mum and dad to stay with us a few more , two thirds of a carrier bag full. Mm Got to keep tomorrow of er what time, I get you in that carrier . Yeah You know we've decided to leave the car possibly. Yeah. You know what happen now, it's raining . Ah. It does it every time. Never mind, see what the weather's like tomorrow then won't we? It's so annoying to end up, never at a pub . No. Cos you clean a little bit, you clean the outside and it's raining, cos you can't take the hoover out there and Clean the inside. Clean the inside. And then by the time you get round in cleaning the inside, the outsides dirty . The outsides dirty . Yeah So, er,she's getting ever so grubby looking now, I reckon very soon we'll gonna have to talk about getting some more er covers. Mm, mm. Er, Yuk . Sorry When do you think we'll be able to . erm Before February? That's when we planned to weren't it? Only eh, I'd like to know over the Christmas period if any little habits surface. Yeah , yeah, ok, Kim can do it this month . came in late . Yeah, we can do it this month. Mm, for a brand new Rolls Royce, it's not going very well is it? Oh dear Read this little name fifty fifty engine it just doesn't get you along very good, does it? Yeah . Certainly had a nine fifty Rolls Royce would get along very well . Tony would you do the table? Yeah. Wipe the work top off and then that . Yeah Oh good. . Reckon they ought to replace super glue with baked beans you know. Yeah, or cornflakes. Yeah, milk and cornflakes. cornflakes. Deadly combination. Never on the worktop . Just making sure No, I think it needs cutting,a lot more,going browner and more miserable . Oh. I don't know though it's difficult to tell, I mean that one that's lost a leaf but the rest of it looks alright. Mm. That one Oops, sorry Those light bulbs that seemed to go like mad are erm Tesco's own brand. Mm. I just replaced one in the lamp in there and it was a Phillips one and I haven't bought any of those for ages, do you know what I mean Yeah. So I think they've lasted alright. It was The Tesco ones don't seem to last very long. Mm. Right. So I think I'll get them up at Asda, get the Phillips one's I think. Mm, mm. I do wonder whether they keep or whether , do you know? No. It's more likely to be the light bulb. I know, just that when your house needs a re-wiring got you worry I wished they never got rid off her new Christmas one, just think all the money we've spent on Yeah . doing up this house so far. Yeah. . Yeah. Of borrowing money,, we've got kitchen done, bathroom, the doors and new windows, to re-wire everything Yeah. all on home improvements. They paid ninety per cent didn't they? Yeah. Of course what happens, just before we buy our house it stops . Yeah. , yeah they take ninety per cent of the . I mean you could have a whole new roof put on your house and it would cost about six thousand, seven thousand pounds and You pay you pay six hundred. yeah. I tell you what we'd have the best house round here if a I can't get over that lady over the road though and her husband. Mm. They , they painted there house a year ago and they've done it again this year, you can't tell where it's stopped and where it's done, do you know what I mean. Yeah. It just didn't need doing. Whereas our house badly needs painting doesn't it? The, you know,, yeah. Oh, like everything else. . throwing the money away. Mm, shall I go out with Fido now? Yeah. Take Fido for a walk. Are you gonna take Fido for a walk?go for a walk. Have you got a photograph like . No. That's right, that's one Frankfurt and one , bet you . Yeah. You had the last year. That's right, yeah Ah. Pity they didn't postcard ones weren't it , so they gave it . Well I can't understand it, it's at the other . Mm, this time they, you've got four ones, and two medium sized ones, they sort off, almost as if there doing you out of a big size photograph. Yeah. Granddad got to give you some as well aren't he? What's that? Were having a week . Ah. Oh And what's your next what was the . Erm, maximum prize. Yeah, well what's it, I mean what's the . One, he said. Well . No, there's something else You got twenty There you've got to . Ok that's fifty nine each Dad. No, one eighteen. Can I have seventy five erm seventy five P for my money. Yeah. Is that being recording? Yeah. ok, come on nan pay up. . .. . I have to go upstairs and get it. Ok, sorry dad, but I need it in . Yeah ok. Oh, no I haven't, got it here. Ah Ah,right, I haven't got the change yet at the moment, I'll have to You got to take it I've got the change, you pay me back, I might have, alright. I mean, I've only got a five pound note. Have you got enough change to give her one pound fifty Jack? I've got a pound coin, but I don't think I've got any , I'll have a look ooh let's have a look, I think I've only got a pound coin. I've got a Jack . I've only got ten . Oh, that would be a help. Have a look Right so if I give you one fifty, there you are. Seventy five P each. That's one fifty, that's right. You have that towards the, though I've got to give you seventy, seventy five so shall I give it to you when I've got the whole lot? I I'm not worried. Ok. Where you out on the front,. Oh you can write, read a form can't you? Oh no, my writing's . Your writing's good. No it isn't. Dad . Can I borrow your . Yeah Gets this . Yeah. Right. Oh. I'll cut some rolls, shall I? Ok Oh yeah, shall I go and find out? Yeah. Ok. Mm. What have we got? Cheese or there's a little, there's a little it of beef. Cheese or beef rolls? Cheese please. Rene? Nothing for me yet Tony. No rolls at all? No thanks. Ok I wonder if, shall I ask Christine? Yeah, she might as well. Do you want some rolls Christine? Erm two? Yeah, what do you want on them, Marmite? Ok. As usual Christine will have them, Rene doesn't want any at all. If there's only a bit of beef you have the beef and I'll have some cheese. What , are you sure? Yeah and some for Christine. Well that's two for you, two for dad, one for me and one for Christine, I don't want . Ok I'm happy with that. You sure? Yeah. Cos I don't mind cheese and Marmite if you have the beef. No, it's alright, I'll have the cheese. that's ok then. Yep. My love, will you do me a favour then, you do it all up, cos it won't keep you know . Yeah . It won't keep until after the weekend, but it'll be alright t today. Aha. do dum . I, she's been ripping all the newspaper . Yeah. Great. She's got have a clean out tomorrow so we'll be able to tidy up all again . . Until she decides to have another ripping I'll be glad next year when they go out in the garden again, do you know what I mean? Yeah, it'll be nice and you can fix , fix them up a run and . Do you want me to do crisps or anything? Yeah,crisps,, no , oh your horrible licked that, oh look at that? . Oh, yuk . Your horrible, er yuk told you it's an extravagant. It'll be more extravagant to let it go to waste . You know how to do don't you? No, I never do it. I just don't know at the end. Yeah. Neither do I. Sorry. I said neither do I . have such a good time . Sort of. Yeah. Got to find it first.. Cupboards fine it's eh, in fact there's too much stuff in it. . Weren't so many Ooh, where's my pickled of walnuts gone? where are my pickled walnuts, there in here somewhere. I to get down in the cupboard. No, I don't think it's gonna be there. Oh Oh, I hate this cupboard. . Oh Tony. I don't know what you've done Wanna scream Oh,. I hope not I see if they want any do you want, do, do you want any crisps? Well I'll have half a packet with you, but chipsticks if you've got them. Mm, mm. Just have half. Ok. . Got any chipsticks? I think so. Oh did leave them in there perhaps I've put them up on the shelf. No, there they are. . Perhaps when you loose your pickled walnuts. That's right, yes. That's alright. Mum would you like a pickled walnut? No thanks. Oh no, she's not having anything . Chipsticks and a pickled walnut , yuk Oh, I've when and got that great big jar of them for Christmas. Aha. I know they cost a fortune, but oh. Yeah, cost a fortune. Sorry. Yeah, cost a fortune Now what you do with this . Two teaspoon . That's right, yeah. With about a third of a cup of milk, you mix it up with some sugar and then you put boiling water in. One, one full teaspoon. Right. , find a space for it again there. I must sort this cupboard out because there's plenty of room in there. Oh, yeah. Do you want some crisps? See you Monday, yeah cheerio, bye, bye Cheerio Cheerio my love . See you, yeah Bye, bye Christine. Safe journey . Yeah. Cheerio, see you Monday,. Take care. You pick your paper up? No, I don't want take it. Do you want eh, all right then be brave, don't worry. Ooh it's still wet out, it's still raining. Is it raining? No, it's not raining. No, it's not raining oh that's good then. So you . I, see you again then. See you again. Cheerio Tony . Yeah , cheerio in't Christine ought to go to bed? Yeah. Come on get undressed.. Yeah. Christine. Ok. Are you miss moody? Just at the moment yeah . Oh I wondered where that pen had got to now where's my cardigan?put my cardigan on the floor. Oh, that's nice. Charming, mind if I watch . No do you want me sort out the gerbils. Well if you wouldn't mind, I'll do the rabbit, guinea pig while you Ok We'll do half each . Yeah. Erm, there is some more cabbage in the gerbils, can you take it out,. Mm, mm What did they have last night? Last box of spring greens went off horrible. Is it? Yeah I'll get them some fresh water as well. Sorry. I'll get, give them some fresh water as well. I'm still learning, so many things to think about when I'm driving. There are. Yeah. For I'm afraid my I love there are, till it becomes automatic , Mm . it could take a little while. I pulled up fairly tight behind a car Yeah. and then I was trying to come out and I started to pull out into a gap and Brian said oh know, don't pull out I said oh okay, he said the thing is your fairly tight so your gonna have to come out slowly so you need a bigger gap than otherwise. Yeah. And the gap wasn't really big enough, do you know what I mean? Yeah. It would off been o okay if I just been able to pull out and drive down the road Yeah. because I had to pull out round the stationery vehicle as well, I would off taken too long getting out Yeah. and I'd have caused the other one to slow down. Yeah, there's a lot to this driving business unfortunately. . So while your trying to do it, it, you . Yeah. I've pulled the old greens out. Good. They didn't seemed to have that much of it actually. No, it's erm it's sometimes . It depends how they have to feel it . Oh, can you . Yeah Oh Ah, you'll find some cupboard . Yeah. A couple of tins of peas left out, try and find a space for them to go back in again. . Greater a man have died for laughter. Not easier. Trying to get the peas back in the cupboard. Oh could you hang on to that lot a minute. Mind the carrots doesn't drop in. Yep , ok. What you been doing stinker, look at the mess yeah, look at all this ooh. Yeah, your not supposed to be coming out. . You little stinker. Yes you are, your an old stinker, yes you are. Shall I put this in there? Oh, good girl. There, ooh . Oh, there's a good girl. . Mm, she's got a lovely coat. Ah cos of the food and the condition she's kept in isn't it? . What you've been up to too? Look. Oh god,, I've checked, all this has got to be chucked away, has it?. Actually, I think this some more hay , there's hardly any in there. Ok. I'll have that. Yeah. . Oh there. Thanks. Mum What, what is it Christine? I go, I got to . Ok. I didn't want to . Alright. . Yeah, ok. Christine's gone to bed. You alright? They eat the hay They've bitten all the apple Shall I er lock the front door and sort Ben out? Erm, please, and . Would you wanna , would you wanna sit for a bit before he goes back? What time is it? Five to one. Drop of Sherry. Mm, could do. Glass. Yeah. Ok. It's tape number four. That one's alright, this one. That one start again. Yeah. . Oh well. Ah everything. I wonder, I wonder what they get from some people you know. Sorry. Must be fun. Yeah. Cut all our naughty bits out. . . That's right. I do find I'm conscious of it a lot of the time. Other people probably can forget about it cos I'm wearing it, I feel conscious of it a lot of the time. I'm not, I must admit I don't think about it now, so if wearing it puts you off. Yeah. You know what I mean, it's taking you . What I'll do when I'm, if all the if signs and buts are covered, I will put the mike on it's stand when I'm working tomorrow, put it on the desk and put the recorder in the, in my briefcase underneath the little desk Yeah. cos there's a little coffee table sort of thing that I put my script on Yeah. and put my brief case underneath it You'll have to take it home. and the microphone on to on top. Have you read it again and realised what you're supposed to do you'll have to take some spare tapes in and spend lunch times won't you? Yeah, but that's, just one, I mean I'm not gonna record, if I try and record the whole of the course You can't. I can't. True,. That's right, but Because ok, yeah stuff remains anonymous mm but you're giving people how, how to defraud benefit. yeah, I can't do that. Erm, so you've got to do that. No, oh, a lot of the session's when they're talking about data types and things like that oh I don't know, cos there's security aspects to that you see. Yeah, but then, if it's obscure that nobody apart from someone working in the office that'll understand it, does it matter? The only way it would matter is that somebody breathes the information to, if they could get hold of a card, and get into an office, they could actually use the information to make a payment. If they knew how. If they knew how. Mm, yeah, but be honest for what you're using, for what you've said, would they pick up that, with not having Not unless . a computer in front of them and being able to look at it and do what you're saying? No. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, I'd, I'll have to blank it out the part when I'm talking about passwords and things as well. Yeah. Cos they're all passwords that protect the system. Yeah Yeah, but apart from that, you're right. Yeah it's like ours we've got passwords. Mm yeah and then everyone's got their own, I've got my own personal one as well. We've got our own personal one too, our . Mm no, mines more boring than that. Is it? My pin number. Oh. I use my bank pin number, that way I don't forget it . Oh I see that, that's how you remember, oh the other day I went to look at Asda you know, put my card in the machine and my mind just went totally blank, do you think I could remember the dam number. . I stood there, in the end I keyed in a number which was one digit wrong Mm. and I thought, it came out erm, incorrect pin number, please remove your card, I thought at least I'm getting it back you know so I whipped it out, I said to mum, I'm gonna have to pay for this with a cheque, I said, I can't get the cash out, and she, she said why, and I said I, I forgotten my number , I was getting in quite a panic cos I knew I didn't have it written down anywhere at home. Yeah, mm. Do you know what it is now? Yeah, I remembered it while I was walking round the shop, cos the more I yeah, the more I thought about it the worse I got when I stood by the machine. That's alright then. Cos I know yours, yeah, yeah So I took my card and went in I thought well I'll pay for this by, by cheque Yeah. Erm, but I wanted some cash, so what I did in the end was walked round Asda remembered it, or thought I remembered it, came back out put the erm card back in and the terminal came up erm it's ok. nervous now, you're gonna be checking that quite a bit. Yeah the terminal came up erm, due to an error were unable to complete your transaction, so I thought oh great, so I can't have my money in any place . then I felt a real twit, cos a man came up and I said I think something's gone wrong with the auto bank machine, says I, it won't give me any money because it's, it's coming up there's an error, so he said well I'll try and see, he says, he put in exactly the same card as me, he had the Midland card, put it in, got his money . so I thought, right, I'm not going to be beaten, so I got, went back in again, put the card back in, gave me my money that time. Mm. But, it, it wasn't saying I'd made, made an error No. it was saying due to an error There's probably some disruption to the to the transmission or something for an . Yeah. Cos it only needs But I felt such a twit, cos I said to this man I, I don't know about you, but I can't get my money. it only needs for a little bit of attention on a wire or something Yeah. to just make it erm, shut out just for a split second Yeah. and it'll throw the whole thing. But that was not a good day . no . Oh, no I put a six where a five should be, in my pin number, that's all I did, but I just, I just stood there and my mind just completely went blank, I couldn't remember it at all. And I'd already pushed the card in Yeah. so I had to key in something. Mm, oh I , I'd turned round, I can't remember what it was oh, what was it all about? I was doing a training session and I said erm I'd, I'd started to say something and I'd done it, I was talking about something and I hadn't done the bit before mm. so they couldn't understand what I was saying, do you know what I mean? Yeah,. and I said erm, Do you want to make . forget all about that, just let your mind go blank and I look round and I said cor that was quick . . Cos they're all looking pretty blank anyway you know. Yeah,. Ooh Well I don't think information about the, the seven, what are the seven conditions of receipt of benefit and things like this would be a State secret. No, unemployed dirty old thing,living in a caravan, with a big dog Sorry. Big, hairy and stroppy, you'll get whatever you like. yeah . . Oh yeah,, big, hairy, stroppy, dirty thing whatever you like. Not quite true, but Go on doesn't it make you sort of bias when you actually work for the system? Erm. And you see the nice people coming in and not getting really Mm. what's due to them, see somebody coming in threaten to punch somebodies lights out and they get all the Yeah. you know? But then, to my mind, the person that who, who threatens to punch the lights out and gets whatever they want, everyone should get the degree of service. Yeah, but the don't, and unfortunately it's the nice people that suffer. No , but it's up to the every individual to try and make sure that they do get that level of service. So what are, yeah but, if to get that level of service you've got to threaten somebody Yeah well you, you shouldn't have to threaten somebody to get good service. no, but you do have to. You shouldn't. No, but you do, in the, in the end. Depends on the people. Mm. Depends on the actual person you see and what their attitude is. Yeah. And I must admit once I'd been I'd, early on when I didn't know an awful lot, then, yeah, but, later on when I had been more experienced there wasn't, there was very little difference between how I treated people whether they made a fuss or not. Yeah, that's right, well that's the way it should be Mm. but you're in the mi minority in, in actually Mm. doing that and saying that, and that's wrong. Mm, yeah, I'm But , trying to do something about it. yeah. . That's right, I mean the thing is you train people to do it properly Yeah. they then go back to their office and unfortunately a lot of what other people in the office are doing are taught Yeah. and that I think really have more of an influence, cos they're not going to change themselves into an individual No. by doing something different to everyone else. Yeah, I see what you mean. They're not in a situation where they can take an individual line at that point. No. It's only later on when they're more experienced that they can actually say, well hang on a minute I can do more for this person and I'm going to do more for this person. But I think that's the only thing were, if I worked in a benefit office I wouldn't get on very well, because if I saw something I'd try and move heaven and earth to make everything to go right for me . And that, and that would make you good. Yeah, but in the beginning I'd get criticized for not being quick enough in my , I don't know . because I'd chase people round to find, till I found out what I wanted to know. Mm, yeah. Do you know what I mean. The sort of things I'm talking about, I'm, I'm thinking of is ok somebody, a mistake's been made, somebody hasn't got their payment out Yeah. alright, and the difference between that is er and then the degree of service that they get, erm you can say you'll get it in the post two days in, in two days, or you can say erm, we'll get a giro cheque written out for you, initial it to you at the counter Mm. at half past three or you can say if you'd like to, if you'd like to wait for half an hour, we'll get a giro cheque to, issued to you or if you'd rather you can come back at half past three and collect it. Yeah, that unfortunately the majority of people say you'll get money in a couple of days, then the person would start to argue, because they need their money now to go and buy their shopping. Yeah, yeah and that's degrees of service Yeah. I mean that, in that situation I would try and say sort of Me, I, I know . Do you need the money urgently? Mm, and they're always going to say yes aren't they, unless they're a reasonable human being and has got a bit of money they can use . Yeah , yeah, only erm But I must admit, I, I am a bit snobbish in it, I would move heaven and earth to help someone who looked clean and nice and had good manners. Mm. If it was someone coming in with a nasty attitude really filthy, scruffy, dirty, no fixed address because they lived in er er, an old wagon some where Mm. I think I'd be less inclined Yeah. but having said that, I'd still give them Only thing is dealing with the awkward people Shall I get down? Yeah, yes please. that distinguishes a professional to somebody who isn't. Oh yeah, I, I'd give them the same options but Ow! with someone who's nice, put it that way, I'd almost definitely try, I'd get the, say that they could have the giro today Mm. Straight away. With someone who's not I'd try and get them to wait for a couple of days and then if they wouldn't I'd go through the and get them it today. Mm, mm. Do, do you see the difference? It wouldn't be, I wouldn't say oh no you can't have it, but I'd say well you'll receive it in a couple of days time and if they said oh well that's not good enough, then fair enough, you, you know. Mm. But somebody who's nice I'd think no, why Mm . should they have to wait because but the, I, these people they are , they've opted out of society, they want nothing to do They don't , with society apart from the giro cheque on paper yeah well they don't they want you don't have problems with their payments. no, no it's, it's the people that think the world owes them a living, but they don't want to give anything back and that really bugs me. Yeah. You know what I mean? Mm, mm, yeah, I must admit I wouldn't, I agree with what you say, where I wouldn't classify those people as being of no fixed abode, they're not necessarily of no fixed abode, there are a lot of people who would, living in flats and Council houses and things like that, they've got that attitude Who . and some of the people who were no fixed abode, actually trying very hard to get work. Mm, no, by no fixed abode I didn't mean, I did say the . Mm. It's the people that get No, but, even, even some of those erm the only thing is they tend to get work and they tend not to tell you they've done it . No, it, no it's the one's that have opted out and they don't try to get work and they don't want work Yeah. those are the ones that I'd be, cos it's obvious, I mean, they've done no work in the past sort of twelve months Mm. or nearly twelve months, and they're not trying because whatever people say, they do, the works there. Mm. You've only got to go to the Job Centre and see all the jobs. Mummy. I mean Yeah. Yeah. . Yeah, that's not bad. Right, erm, mum Yeah. Do you know with this model,those paints with got to get it done by this Friday . Alright, I'll try and sort something out tomorrow. Ok. Ok, only I haven't got time today, if we can do the that today look, might as well get done really. It is, it is a bit more complicated than that, Mm. in that er, some people would like to work, but the level, the amount of money they need coming in, is not in line with the amount they can realistically expect to earn, and that's a difficult situation. Yeah, but then they've got to adjust their life style. Mm, erm, yeah, you can't adjust your life style by killing a couple of kids, Oh no , that's the only problem , if you've got a large family and you've had a well paid job and then you loose it yeah erm, and you're not likely to be able to get into that line of work again Mm. it, it can be quite difficult, Mm. but there are, what there wasn't before, that there is now is these, erm But, then, as I say , if you've got a fam if you, if you can get a job and you, you, it's their just life style adjusting. well no, because what you can do know is you can go to somebody who will sit down with a mini computer and that's what you need, a mini computer and will sit down and will look at a job and will say right, if you take this job, it can also claim Family Credit of so much, and, and they actually do a, a sort of alternative benefit calculation, and what they do is they look at, if you take this job and take all the other things into account, will you be better off? Mm. Mm. And they'll actually sit down and work that out for people and encourage them to go for a job and give them all the forms they need to claim Family Credit or whatever. Well that's what I was gonna say, if the system works properly there's no way. But sometimes people fall through the cracks Mm. and if, you can actually have somebody go, who's interested in going for a job, and when you do that sort of calculation they end up they're gonna be worse off. Yeah. And that shouldn't be allowed to happen, but it does. Yeah. Because it doesn't su , it doesn't match the whole, there, there are holes in it . Yeah, so, so what happens then if they say I'm not even going to that interview then because I couldn't live on it, even with all the other benefits, what happens then? Right, erm See this is it, they get punished then, don't they, for not for not trying. Well, erm, as I understand it er calculations for in work benefit at erm, by somebody who's separate from the normal benefit section Mm. and I don't think they, they will pass on information about somebody actually refusing to take a job Because of the pay. because of the pay. Oh But, the system ought to be water tight, so that people are better off Mm. but the trouble is it's so complicated there are always exceptions and problems that cause Yeah, but I mean, be honest, you, you say that, but people have got to be prepared to adjust as well. Oh yeah. Because you say someone with a large family and they need a lot of money, you see someone with a large family Yeah,. Child Benefit or something like that Mm, mm. and they're not given a large amount of money No. and there's somebody else saying oh I need five hundred pounds a month more than that, to live and you think well, hang on Well. You, know, if, if these two people with the same number of kids can live for this yeah why should this person need five hundred pound a month more. What you've got to take into account is that, an all, there's an awful lot of things that you get when your unemployed that stop when you find a job. Oh yeah, cos I mean I know they pay mortgage for you, well not mortgage, but interest on your mortgage. Interest on mortgage, yeah. So you've certainly got to erm start paying the mortgage again. mm. Also if you're in rented accommodation you're claiming housing benefit, you'll probably haven't got to pay any rent, specially if it's Council there's relief, relief from paying Provided, if your pay is that low . community charge, which you don't get any more once you start working. Well you do. Well Depending on your circumstances it depend, it depending on your circumstances, yeah. That's what I'm saying you'll still get people who, they don't qualify for any of these benefits Yeah . because of what they're earning Mm. and they're still saying they're not getting enough Mm. those are the people who need to adjust what, how they're living and they don't. Mm. They've got a big car, they've got a big house Yeah. you know, say to them buy a smaller house and Phrr, you know you'd never Mm. never hear the end of it. Erm. I mean it was like Deborah and Dave, can you remember? I believe, ah , I believe the D S S do look at the situation, but they, before, yeah , Do you remember Deborah and Dave?, before they actually suggest to somebody that they sell a house, that they sell a house and moved to a smaller one, they have to be unemployed for quite some time. yeah, but I mean they just desperately wanted to get away from Bristol Mm. because of what happened with the accident Yeah. what have you, and they moved from that really nice house Mm. that they had Yeah. and that was Deborah's mother's house, that was where Deborah was brought up and where I used to go and play with her when we were little Mm. and of course her mum moved to Cornwall and Deborah bought the house of off her, a bit cheaper than they would have bought on the they moved down to Cornwall and they bought a much smaller house, much, much smaller. Mm. I mean she had three or four children Yeah. so she's still needed, I think she bought a three bedroomed house which meant she had two girls two girls and a boy, she had three children. Aha. No two boys and a girl, so it meant that two boys have to share a bedroom which they weren't doing in that other house and David's been unemployed well Mm. I say, they did just that, they sold up, moved down to Cornwall where her mum lives and bought a much smaller place. Yeah. D S S don't help with the mortgage, at the first I think it's ten weeks as well, but I think help with the mortgage at all . Yeah. Unless people are insured for that sort of period in time any way. , yeah are we? I don't think we are. No, because of the type of job. Yeah. Oh, I don't know if we would be. I don't know, but it's, I don't know I, it's a very difficult sort of situation where you get, there are so many things to look into, and it's not being done well enough Mm. basically. It's very, very complicated. Mm, it is, but it's still not being done well as There's no way it should be that complicated a lot of the problems are caused by the rules being so complicated that you have to be working in that particular field Mm. with two or three years before you really know what's going on Mm. and in Avon we've got erm we've got a large turn over of staff Yeah. people don't stay out long, so you don't get many people getting up to two or three years experience, the one's that stay on that long stay Oh yeah , they, they're very good. They're, and they're very good and they, they tend to stay a long time. Yeah. But then they tend to get promoted and move on to other things. Yeah, but I, I think the reason I feel a bit bitter about it is living round here, you see all the dirties and the scruffies, you get annoyed, absolute no order, they've crawled into the system right up to and doing openly in front of you Yeah, mm. and you think well to hell with it, they should be, come down on hard. Mm. You, you know, you Yeah , just see them all getting away with it and they makes me thing something ought to be done, which has the people that lose out or the people who go in there very politely, fill out their claim mm. suffered at home and because of all the dirties and scruffies making a fuss they don't get attended to properly Mm. and that's what makes me evil, that's why I say I'd moved heaven and earth for someone who's nice Yeah. and for someone who's not. Mm. Because you know dam well that those people, the ones that are not and are making the fuss are probably the ones that lead, need the money least. Yeah. Cos er, somebody I can think off with a, not a million miles from here is working and claiming Mm. I know that I mean he's actually thick enough to go up there and sign on in his overalls. Mm. Then he says, oh he's working on cars for the family, ha, ha, ha, ha. Mm. You know, and you, you know dam well he's, he's defrauded the system. Yeah. When, and he'll be the one going up there shouting. Somebody like Hilary Mm. that needs all the help she can get goes up there and Mm. gets little You know it just doesn't seem right at all. Mm. Erm I wouldn't there are ten per cent, well perhaps less than ten per cent who are absolute loonies. Yeah. Erm, but an awful lot of people who would go up and make a fuss may not get this, the same level of services erm, somebody who went up there and was nice. Mm. They might get less. Yeah, perhaps it's just that I know some of the loonies that go up there and get what they want every time. Well. . The thing is you have to look at your source of information for that. Yeah. They might think they're getting away with it, a lot of people who, who, I mean being unemployed isn't, you tend, people tend to feel devalued and so if they can think oh, they've put one over on that, on the er, benefit office, then they'll go and brag down the pub about it. Yeah. Whereas in actual fact if they come in very nicely and ask very nicely, they might have got more than they actually got here when they came in shouting and yelling. Mm, yeah. , but then, when you come to the lunatic fringe then supervisor's will cut an awful lot of corners to prevent them busting up the office or punching somebody in the nose, a real, I don't mean people who are just stroppy, I mean the real lunatic . Yeah, yeah, big red L written on their claim. . , I know, ha, ha, I can sue you, you take care. Yeah, I mean there are some virile people who are mentally sub normal. Oh yeah. There are people who are mentally ill, for one reason or another, there are people on drugs, there are people who are alcoholics and when those people come in, in that state, you minimize the areas of confrontation. So when you say to them sorry you don't get any money because they're not entitled to it what happens then? Well there's only one thing you can do any way. Yeah. You see the it's gonna happen eventually with all these people, there's gonna come a time where's something gonna happen that they're not gonna like Mm. you know, Mm. erm, as long as, cos they can only claim benefit for a certain length of time can't they?, then it switches from unemployment to Social Security . Income Support , yeah, but Income Support, paid indefinitely. Yeah, yeah. And Income Support is a lot more than Unemployment Benefit anyway. It is, is it? Yeah. Oh, I didn't think it was. Yeah, Unemployment Benefit is only forty one quid a week. Oh. Or sixty five if you're claiming for a wife,, what good is that? Well, you said what good is that, it's more than mum and dad's er pension it's more than dad's pension Ah, yeah. and he's claimed . I don't think you've got that right somehow, there's no way, that retirement pension will be less than Income Benefit, it's always a bit more. Well, it works out that's based on National Insurance Contributions. No. And dad's in receipt of a, in receipt of a full pension. Yeah. Right, he's getting more than sixty, sixty five quid a week. Yeah, but it's not a lot more. Ok, it might not be a lot more, it might be seventy. Mm, yeah. But it's always a bit more. Mm. Because they They ought to be a lot more that's the thing. because people who are signing on will er, well,pe he's, he could still claim Income Support. He can't. He's got too much money coming in then. Yeah, cos he's got a private pension of one hundred pounds a month as well. Yeah. Cos they get hardly any rent rebate now, hardly any oh, but, well, Poll Tax, they pay nineteen pounds each Yeah. which is practically the same as were paying. It is the same. Yeah,, they get no relief there, no relief any where else. Mm. I mean, I be honest I don't know how they do it, because I do know what they've got coming in Mm. I mean they've got their old age pension and dad's private pension and that's it. Erm, I don't know how they live, yet they always seemed to have enough money you know. They get help with the rent? About one pound odd a week. Rene said they're twenty four pound a week. Yeah They get practically no help at all and yet mum still manages to sort of save a bit Yeah. and I think well where are they going short, because they must be. Mm, it's a thought, they seemed to be able to manage ok. Yeah. I mean, were, were be in a totally different situation. Yeah, but then we've got three hundred pound mortgage, which they haven't got, I mean we've got different circumstances. Yeah, but, we will be totally different situation . Oh yeah, when , when we retire. Cos we'll end up with no mortgage, we'll get I don't, I don't know, if I , I must admit I rather fancy the erm, the old er the erm, a re-employed pensioner, I don't know. . It's quite a good one. What going down to E.O. Well I can work till I'm sixty two as an E.O. Yeah. Or Sixty as an H.E.O. Would you want to? What, you could then do which I think would probably help, cos you see you don't get State Retirement Pension till you're sixty five Yeah. but what I, what would be a possibility at sixty two, when I'm at that point, I'd be receiving half pay Yeah. as a pension, so if I'd retired at that point, and then worked part time Yeah. to keep your green matter in the wear Yeah, yeah. As an A O somewhere. Yeah. So I'll reach State Retirement Age we can, end up with virtually full pay. Yeah, When I've, I've got that's if I was still working. I'd be working part time for full pay , if you see what I mean Yeah, yeah. and then at retirement age I would continue to receive half pay plus retirement pen State Retirement Pension Mm. which be, at the equivalent of about seventy quid a week as well. Yeah, I h , I honestly think though that when erm I don't know, you see, cos I, I's been saying oh when I get a chance I'll get a transfer out of my office Mm. because of they way it's run Mm. but they way it is at the moment, with me able to use the car for work Mm, mm. and things, you think is it worth it because the car would be sat out here, if, if say, say I transferred and still did three days but did it when you work Mm, yeah in the building you work in Mm. I wouldn't be able to use my car No. so, I'd have to pay bus fare Mm. so I'd be paying, we'd be paying for our petrol which wouldn't be a lot different to what it is now really No , a bit, two or three pounds a week perhaps mm. and I'd be paying a lot more in bus fare Mm. plus you haven't got the convenience of being able to go and get in your car Yeah, cos standing about waiting for buses is not fun. No, you know, if I could work somewhere in an office where I could use my car Mm. then that would be great Mm. but you'd want to be able to know that you can I don't know, I mean, I , I think, with, with the place I am now I just don't know what to make of it really No, I think the thing is, is once you, this is gonna sound awful, but once you've done your time and you know as much or more, then you're E O then you're gonna be left alone to get on with your job. What do you mean love, we've always been left alone to get Yeah , on with the job. what I mean is, that you're not gonna have, erm you're not gonna have interference like you had lately, ya, not gonna have comments like you had lately. Huh, there'll always be And , and you feel, comfortable with what you're doing, you won't have to erm, you won't have to worry about the work, if you know what I mean, you'll know how to do it. Yeah. Once you've got that, I, I think you might well fined that it's quite nice and comfortable to stay there. Yeah, well this is it, I think Rather than, rather than face moving into Benefit where it is very fraught at times and in a situa , and coping with that as well as not knowing what you doing isn't nice. You, you say it's very fraught in Benefit at times, I don't think you appreciate what I do, right, you are very busy no, when you get someone's relative phoning up because they've just been crushed under a lump of machinery, that's is very fraught. Yeah. Having to deal with that person Mm. why aren't you prosecuting the company because my son has just been killed Yeah. and who has to deal with it, da da. Yeah. Not, you know, the inspector's are out, where you can't reached them on the phone. You've never talked about that before. Oh no, no it happens. Mm. Quite a bit. And that's, that's on a par with the sort of problem we get in benefit Mm. and somebody comes in, Aunt Maud has just died, what do I do? Yeah, yeah. You think, oh , and it Yeah, but , the thing is with that it's very different because,, it's not your fault Ok, erm. erm they're not coming to you and saying, my wife has been killed why aren't you doing anything about it, No. they're coming to you and saying my wife has been killed please can you help me which is My kid , is different. They're coming to you asking for help yeah, yeah. whereas they're coming to us and blaming you Mm, yeah. you know Yeah . For doing nothing, which is Yeah. you know, if the help and safety executive had done this, this and insured that this was right and that was right Mm. this wouldn't have happened. Yeah. You know, that's a bit different to my wife has died please can you help me Yeah , yeah, sort things out. another scenario that comes up quite often is that, somebody comes in and say my kids haven't had any food all over the weekend because you didn't send out a giro Yeah. that be a Yeah, but mine they're lying instead. , well you, . you won't sometimes. Yes, that means Yeah, but my kids haven't had any food all weekend that I've paid for because you didn't send me my giro, they've had their meals because they've been round there at grandma's, but I'm not telling you that, yeah, you know. Yeah. I went down the pub on Saturday and drank it, all the rest of my benefit. Yeah, quite. But, that's, that's what you're faced with sometimes. Yeah, I mean. But, yeah, I mean I mean we get it as well, it's not, you so sort of say oh my jobs a cosy little job, but it's not that cosy believe me, you get put in some very awkward situations . no, I didn't, I didn't want to say that. No. I didn't want to say that because I didn't, I don't think it is a cosy little job Mm. especially with the management's support you get. Well we don't get any. That's what I meant . From the management we get positive hinderance not support. , yeah, that's what I meant. I mean, my immediate management,, now in, in a crisis she's brilliant, you see, I, I don't know whether this with this the other day, whether she didn't go to see Paul to see what I'd say Mm. because I'd said this, and I don't know whether she was sussing me out Mm. a bit as well, cos I've, I've said that, he's said something to me and, Ok. and I don't know whether she took me down to see him to see if I'd backed down Yeah. and I didn't, because he said it. Mm, yeah. And I think she was No, I , quite pleased with me cos she said, don't get irate, don't get upset, and I didn't. no. I talked him down at one point Mm. cos he kept doing it to me so I did it to him. Mm. He wouldn't let me say something and I tried about three times and in the end I just kept talking, Mm. it was a case of you stop, let . Mm. But I don't know anybody in there who hasn't had a really good shout at him at some point, and that's all, that's including A O's Mm. you know, and when Ah Yeah , the one thing you have got there is that people are prepared to take him on. Yeah, they are, Julie will Mm, whereas, if you and Joyce definitely will . yeah, whereas if you had the situation where people weren't prepared to take him on, it could be awful Yeah. you have people leaving hand over fist. They have now. Mm. I mean they've got a job to keep people. Mm. Since I've been there, they've had. Yeah. I think A.O's, they, they, the A O's tend to stay Does they tend to have more gumption, they tend to have to stand up to him in the end . yeah . Yeah. But the A O's don't, they've had one, two they've had one new A A to date Mm. in the twelve month's I've been there, just one, and we've had three leave. Yeah You know Yeah I, I don't know it cos he, he sort of says all this, that we, were very good to people you know, great flexibility and all this . oh yes, you get a hospital appointment then you have the time off it, that's it, they'll , move heaven and earth, you know so what so what . quite. If you have a pre he's actually said to me if you have a problem I will listen and I will help you, so there's me going to him and saying look due to a misunderstanding I have a problem and this one saying tough Yeah. you know but it wasn't any misunderstanding either, he said something Mm. and now the chips are down and I'm calling on him to do what he said, he's not prepared to No. that's what it boils down to, there's no misunderstanding it's him. Mm. Him, he, he wanted someone to work there desperately Yeah. I was there, I was prepared to do it Yeah. and he wanted me Yeah. so he offered me the moon to get me Yeah. having got me Yeah, he then starts trying to take it back yeah, and he's not going to. No. So . He didn't exactly offer you the moon anyway Well no, no But he was prepared to negotiate on something which now he's saying he didn't negotiate. Yeah, that's right, what, no, he's not saying erm, he's not prepared to negotiate any more Mm. he's saying he didn't say it in the first place . First place , yeah. He's also saying, but now I have a more responsible job, therefore I have to be in time, five minutes after him, not good enough. Mm, yeah. You know and, as I say with my partner I haven't mentioned it yet, this business about cover Mm. but it annoys me that, why, you see, I'm, I'm asking for cover for technical half an hour in the morning Yeah. Possibly fifty five minutes. Mm. Somebody has to cover our group from half past three till five Mm. during the week. Well that's not time, so it doesn't matter. No, when your partner This, goes home early it's, it's a question it's not a question of cover, and it's not a question of erm efficiency it's a question of small mindedness. Yes, luckily he's gonna look at all my flexi . Mm. The one that's been really bad, is the one that I'm still doing, they can't see that. Ah, right. Yeah. I looked at the other day and I was thinking oh god, I want to go to sleep a couple of days last, you know Mm. five minutes, ten minutes, and I was thinking erm,the car broke down Mm. well that's all the sheet I'm doing now Mm. so he won't see that one. No. Keen she is She is in't she? . Got my house keys? It's up there, I saw it on the door last night. Oh, was it late? no . Oh where is it, this side or the other side? Erm The passenger, yeah, grandma. Just getting used to this damn er choke again . No. They'll service it, and it'll They'll service it , be all different again. such a pain, it really is. I seemed to do anything to the car, mind with the water pump I think they check, they have to er adjust the timing. Mm, mm. When they er put the new pump in, but it is such a nuisance. You've got to push the choke in now as far as it'll go. Oh. The only thing is then you'll run, when you stop and take your foot off the accelerator you risk stopping. Yeah. you'll have to give it as little as it you know Mm. It seems to be much more sensitive to too much choke. Yeah, it floods very easily. Yeah Pick, are you gonna pick her up at quarter past,quar , er seven o'clock is it? Yeah, erm Okay. So you could, explain sort of why. Yeah. See you later. Bye. Be a good girl Hello Tony, was Christine okay? Hello , yeah. We'll drop her back. Well we can, we can Unless you want her earlier , pick her up about seven. yeah that's fine . Okay , cos were going out, so we can pick her up on the way out, about seven? Okay , yeah, is that alright?. Yeah, that's fine , I'm gonna drop the other's back at seven oh. We've got Charmaine and Charlotte, we don't know if Becky's coming round, we've got a video. Oh, right. Okay? Erm. It's, it's up to you, if you, if you like us to drop her back first at seven Erm or we'll hang on until you call for her and then I'll pop these back home, I don't mind, whichever. Erm. Or she can stay later it's, it's entirely up to you. No, were actually going out at seven You take her out I mean, you, were take Christine, yeah. Yeah. Erm. , er, we'll, we'll, we'll pick her up at seven . okay Okay. See you later See you later then. Okay? Yeah, Lorraine was saying oh we can bring her back about seven. You say we were on our way out any way . And I said well were on our way out so she said alright, were hang on and wait for you to arrive at seven and then I'll take the rest back. Oh the rest, how many has she got there? I don't know. I think Becky, I think Charmaine is going, is there as well, so, she's gonna have a house full and they're all gonna sit and watch a video. going back. God. Yeah, brave lady. Oh my, must admit, gets a bit much of it you know. . But then I suppose. Mm. Oh I wish we could get all that grass cut, oh. Yeah, I can't do it can we? No. We've had a real sort of little later you know. Yeah. It'll be ideal to do it, but you, actually say you just can't do it all. Mm I suppose being realistic we could clean the car out in the evening because you only got to have the door open you've got the interior light on Yeah. you know. Yeah, you can't clean the outside of the car by the interior light. Yeah, but then we'll do that in the car wash then . Yeah see it's busy on a Sunday. Yeah. I wonder actually if their car wash is open Oh, we'll have a look Yes, the garage is . Yeah there's somebody in there now I'll go and get the ticket. Get the wax one as well, that'll give some protection as well . Okay Wax or hot wax? Erm, what do you think? Which is That's the hot wax. What do you think? We can try that. Wax, yeah. Okay Hello, can I have a three pound fifty car wash please. There's been . . Thank you.. . There we go. Thank you. . Bye. You haven't got the dry on it as well? Yeah It'll give it some form of protection which we haven't got round to doing the erm oh Silicone. yeah. Yeah. I mean it says it lasts up to two years, we've only had it on there a year Yeah. it's just over a year, so that's . It all helps if you start the engine. Right, I'd better go and push the ticket in hadn't I? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And I've got our aeriel down. We'll still have to do all round the doors, round the you know. Yeah. Not a bumper, all over, number plate, on the front. The number plate's only hanging on by one screw . God. Every time I come up here I think is the alright, that one. It was broken when we bought the car. Yeah. It's done well to stay on two and a half years really. Yeah.? 1 e I'm interested to see what it's gonna do for a hot wax if you see what I mean? Yeah Or at least, wow. What? I've got a little pool down here. down there, on the inside, yes. Yes. Well it is a bit excessive isn't it? Yeah . It's not erm well where was the hot wax?we just had an ordinary wash go and ask her, say you asked for how much did you pay? I had the right card, it was the card number five which was for the hot wash as, hot wax as well. Well it's, we've just had an ordinary wash haven't we? I don't know, they might I don't exactly feel as if we'd had our monies worth there. Oh, mm, I don't, I don't really know what the hot wax does. Oh no, it does feel. It's probably different. It, it's, no, no . Different stuff is put on it. Yeah, there's something, it feels erm. Feels waxy? This one's cheaper than the er Sorry. This one is cheaper What than the erm. than the one at the Longwell Green. Yeah, it's had something, look it wouldn't of. Mm. Yes, it's had something, look at the paint work. Yeah, it's good, in it? It was probably erm the shampoo and what have you it's in Yeah . together I'm sorry. It's alright. Jumping off the clutch there. , I'm a past master at that Going a bit quickly. What's going a bit quickly? That police car. Ah. Wasn't screaming, just that it's , the eh, getting there. Mm. Don't you start. . I know how easy it is to do that, coming up there. Coming up there, yes, quite er, quite tricky. Thanks for a paying to have it washed like that, cos it That's alright . saves an awful lot of time with us. Saves a lot of work don't it, a lot of time I want to check the tyres and that as well. Mm, mm. Cos we haven't had for any actual air in it for ages. Mm. I'm sure they must need er a little bit. Yeah And we've got plenty of time now to erm do the hoovering and what have you. Mm. Brian had a little panic before my test. Why? He had a back light go. Oh no. Break light. Well, having said that He had a spare. he did? Yeah. When did it go? While he was fitting it, while I was coming out of door to stop my test to start Oh . on my er lesson before my test, and he said just push the brake down a minute and I did and he said oh, you try it again, yeah, oh, hang on a minute, he fiddled about some more and he said right now do it again ah right that's working now . Phew we. And I was thinking oh god. Did the examiner check your break lights and indicator's though. No. No,. No. . The only the thing is there do, erm there's a parking light on Brian's Yeah. and he said, do you normally have a light down there? And I said er only when I'm parked. What did he say? And he said er, mm, would you er, would you just, erm, don't raise the clutch just put the car into first gear a minute. Put it into first gear and he said, and the light went out, he said oh yes that's fine. I wouldn't bother with that if I were you, we're gonna be hoovering it and cleaning it aren't we. Oh yeah course we are , yeah, okay. Yep. I'm gonna be ashamed of driving it again now, I was getting to a point where I was thinking oh my god, Christine came out in black all along here she said, er what's that? I said dirt . . Right, have you locked it all? Yes I think so. Okay, well we'll lock it. I never leave it unlocked. No, but Right then we want the hoover, we've got a patch of to do. Aha. About that big, it's not a small patch. You know where the door frame goes round and the door fits into it? Mm, mm. Somebody's obviously tipped the edge Ah. and it's gone un-noticed so far. Of course after Christmas some time we've got to find erm the money for the rust round the Yeah. window. Yeah. And that must be checked. Mm, mm. Because otherwise were gonna be erm dead trouble. Hello Ben. Hello Ben, hello, hello, hello, hello, hello, oh eh. Erm, right. There we go. You haven't got it tucked in Do you want a cup of tea? Yeah that'll be good. And a bowl. Mm, mm. And . Keep that or. I wouldn't . What you gonna do with these? Keep them. Okay. Well,. How did those get started?. Oh, that was, we opened those last night. We did. Oh those are a bit hard. Yeah, okay. . What do you want in your roll then? You've got a big choice haven't you? Cheese or cheese. Or Tuna. I wouldn't mind some cheese. Cheese. Do you want? No, I'll have some cheese and Marmite. Right These cheese slices are quite good actually aren't they? Yeah, they're nice. There we are. Have we got any . Is Christine having tea over at er Amanda's? Erm, I, well, that was the general idea. Right. But I don't know really what's happening, if she hadn't had anything she'll have something when she comes back. Yeah, okay. Remind the over there. Mm, mm. If her mum's got five hundred there, I don't know whether she'll want them or No. stay for tea . Yeah I was a bit annoyed with my Oh crikey. See, they haven't actually send me a statement, that's see what I mean Mm That's why I have to keep an eye on it cos that blind and that, but it won't come yet, it wouldn't have been on that, that was priced it . That was probably why you haven't got anything else on it. Yeah. I bet they have a few Sony Walkman's disappear. Yes, sod that. I might send away for that last one. . It's quite nice, it's sort of got . Oh yeah , it's got a group of pleats and then a gap and then a group of pleats, mm. pleats,. . I think it's too late to order today but I'll have look through those leaflets. Mm, mm. . Mm, china china nativity plate. Oh they do have some rubbish. Complete with stand, musical nativity advent calendar, plays silent night. Oh. Oh dear. We all yeah You want marmite on your Yes please. Do you want lot's of marmite, little bit of marmite. Lot's of marmite. Right. Don't spread it like putty you know, but, quite a lot I like to be able to taste it where Christine just likes the flavour if you know what I mean. Mm I know why he's not happy. Why? Well his box is down there innit? Yeah. He's thinking they're gonna go and leave me again. He's right, but not for a little while. Tell Tony's gonna leave but actually has a go at me as well. Oh yeah. a couple of times we went up there with er jogging. Mm, mm. He did nothing but sniff and sniff and sniff when we came back. Yeah. Now he's got to get used to another dog. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. He thinks oh not again. What crisps would you like? Er what we got? There is a packet of cheese one's Mm, mm. or skips or disco's? Can I have the McCoy's? Okay I'll have the crisps then. Do you mind? No. Seriously. Yes, but never mind. , tough, you had the last cheese packet . My turn. I mind seriously but never mind. Actually I should leave that stuff . Yeah, okay I must admit I won't be terrible sorry if you don't see this it is a bit naff. Yeah, it is a bit innit? Determined he's gonna have what's in that bucket isn't he? looks so matted and knotted up, you can't ever imagine him being No. able to be . I'll er, get us a cup of tea. Okay? Yes. Now I have to put you first on the list instead of me. Stay then. Why cos I went wow? No you said what you're doing? You you spent first and then Have you got your door keys? And they'll have great difficulty telling your voice and mine apart won't they? Oh yeah. Yeah. Great difficulty.), I Oh you unlocked it? Sorry? You unlocked it? Yes. I had my key. Thank you. No. What? They certainly whizz through here don't they? Ha ha ha! Didn't they get the passport Christine's not here. No. I haven't got the aerial up after all that I . I was trying to get the key out the aerial and it wouldn't come out. Funny . Yeah. And a car was approaching. It made my one minute I thought help! Look. Sorry. That's all right. What you doing? You can't see surely. I can write in the dark I can't read it but I can write it. Huh Ah! Oh come on till we get past it and turn around. Yeah. Are there head lights coming round there or not? Headlight? I don't know that they're coming round. Yeah I know. Don't No. I hate this junction. Yeah Absolutely him. Yes horrible place to get round. There's always that van parked on the corner. Yeah. And it's blind cause of all the bushes the other side. Mm. And you're always on the wrong side of the road which doesn't help Well he didn't expect that . Did you see? Yes I did. Ooh. That was close. Whip round there a bit quick. Goodness what a funny trailer Mm. God the steering's a bit better. Now that er Firmed up the tyres. Firmed up the tyres a little bit. Oh! It always feels very well not very slightly different to driver when you pump the tyres up. When they needed it you know? Hm. Yeah. Cause the front tyres tend to go down more because they're carrying more weight. They've got the engine. Mm. Yeah. They're also pulled about more aren't they? Well it's front wheel drive car so Yeah. And how long it will be before she says Dad do you think you could put the radio on. Yeah but some get in front of him Thank you. Okay? We would've dropped her back. Yeah they know that so erm not to worry. You drive the car anyway. It's kind of you anyway. Okay? You didn't bring with you did you? No. Thanks very much. It's all over for you. You'll probably see her in the morning. Yeah? Yeah. Seems like it. Bye bye then. Cheers. Bye.ep murder inside Oh wow! two men like and you pull out this paper on the spot Murderer and er judge. If the judge and the murderer's got to wander round and kill someone and kill the judge and the mystery is no points who it is. If the judge doesn't get killed then erm they then the judge got to go around asking pe people questions. Oh. Great! How many were there? Only erm There was Charmaine Charlotte Charmaine Oh no Becky? No Becky was gone. And we watched Home Alone. Oh! was it good? Yeah. It was brilliant! He had this trick and he had a blow torch and he burned off all this blokes hair. It was funny. He had a blow torch Mum you as he opened the door and the blow torch flicked off something. I don't know what it was and erm and the blow torch went off. Oh wow! It burned all the top of his head and he hung a hot thing over the handle on the door -front door and so he put his hand on the handle and there was piece of skin it was all burned off Oh no! Uh In a circle This steering is much lighter. Is it? Yeah I'll tell you what it is. You know a lot of these big cars with really wide wheels. Yeah. They've got some of them have got power assisted steering. Yeah. And if just blowing up the tyres means you have a tiny bit more thre er tread on the road and it is a tiny bit. Uh huh. Then if it makes this much difference Yeah. You know what I mean? I can see why with big wide wheels some cars You need would need it. Power assisted steering yes. Yeah. It must feel strange though. Well no because it's still responds to you you know? Yeah forty mile an hour zone. And he just gone parked behind a bike with no lights. No he's got lights but they're er Flashing. Flickering. Oh no that's That's supposed to be like that? They're supposed to be yeah. That's good actually because I saw that from a long way off and I thought what is it? I thought it was a they are good. Hm. Makes you notice them doesn't it? Yep. Very much so. Had that been a steady red light it wouldn't have been anywhere near as noticeable Noticeable no. Mum when we Murder in the Dark Amanda was dump me and you're supposed to sort of do that isn't that right? Yeah Just sort of hit them? And I felt and I said I did not kill her and I was the murderer and Shameer said check hit me but she didn't it felt like a hit and you don't accidentally do that do you? Well if it was dark and she couldn't see you she might have put her arm out and hit you it doesn't what it feels like isn't always what it is if you see what I mean. You could see a little bit but not much. But it it was like it wasn't like a tap wasn't. We reckon it was that. Uh huh. And she said she hit me with her elbow and it wasn't it. Well it might have been her elbow Christine you mustn't be It wasn't there you could tell it was All you could feel was that it was something bony. Now be fair. It was bony and All right. I'd better write that down or I'll never remember it specially with er what comes next? Yeah. From one to the other. Hello. All right Hello Hello All right. How are you? All right thanks. That's good then all right? Yes That's nice. That'll be a bit crispy that bit. Oh it's you causing a again is there? Yeah Oh dear. I don't know . How are are . Everybody all right? Is it going all right? Fine thanks. Yeah. You're early so no excuse. How are you? I'm fine thanks. Oh that's good. Yeah. Gonna be doing a course next week. Erm Monday to Friday. I'm running a course. Yeah. It's a five day course. By Friday I'll be on my knees. Oh. Is it a stiff one? Well it's hard doing five days in a row like that. Cause you're talking and explaining things all the time and Better not lose your voice then. In the lun no that's right and in the lunch hour and things Yeah You don't really get a break because you're getting ready for the afternoon. Yeah Yeah So you don't really get any break at all but on a Looking forward to it? Yeah it'll be good. It done I did it once before . Where is it? It's in Nelson Street and er I did it I've done it once on my own like this before. It's what? No Bristol. In Bristol . Yeah it is. It was the way Hm. You went to Sheffield and Yeah that's right. Sheffield. Yes I went to Sheffield. Yeah what I was going to say to you the only thing is will you put a plug up. There's not a plug on up. I come up and put em up. I don't know how to put a plug up. Oh come on Mum decorate your All right then. If you don't decorate it up like she got her own decorations She's got all all her decorations up erm a hundred like erm twenty erm but Joe Right. do you remember we got a bet on? But you wanted to go and see Jones now. She's got a great big outside on her slag over the windows and it's all lit up I got sixty two onions . I been round there and got conkers Tell her about Joan's going to be a grandma. Oh yes Joan's gonna to be grandma . Joan's going to be a grandma in June . Becky. Is Tony a ? See who can get the trimmings up the and who can put the most up. Don't laugh. I've got my nerve ever since the twenty eighth of Twenty eight of October. October? So Terry's going to board with stars now? Yeah. Stars? The joker who's up today and she got this boy whose had this section Has she? So so we know roughly going up to get and make some stars and he's going to put chains and like all round these stars. I have them up the front bedroom window . Even Phil's going to be You'll be able to see them two houses from a long way away. Well yes. Oh dear. Ours is prettier isn't it? How's school going then Christine? All right my love? Yep. Do you like it? Yep. I've got to do What are you doing? Anything special for Christmas? Doing anything special? On Thursday we They are doing a play. Yeah. But if you buy any more of you'll blow up. Will I see the great icing the great big father Christmas blow up one. Oh yeah. The only one Oh is he? Oh that's great huh. I going down again as father Christmas and she's got one. She's got what? Yeah she got one Father Christmas on a step and a bleeding . Iris wants to blow up one. I want to blow up one now. I'll get you one that's easy to blow up. All right. And then on top of it what was it? I reckon we have to pay for it aren't you? What? Terry said we might go and get another set of outdoor lights because we can do with another set at the back. Is one? Yeah. But for now he's No. I've not got a proper Christmas tree out am I? No you're not going to put a Christmas tree out. he likes putting it up outside the front door and put these lights on it. awful bad smells all septic. Yes she's going to need Are you squeamish Jackie? No. What you been ? What it ever since last August. I've been treating it as a wart. A wart? A corn and I've been putting corn plasters on it Hm. but so I'm going to ring up tomorrow and see if I can see her. Yeah Otherwise it'll only get worse. Now I've got one coming on the other toe. The other side. Oh no. It's what but it's only very small at the moment like a dry skin. Yeah. But I can't rid of it. I've been treating that since I bought corn plasters Because it should have healed up by now. Oh yeah all that time. Definitely. You're not putting anything No. You need to have a tetanus injection. So I don't go outside by the time you've finished. So yes. You want to get down there don't you now? Oh and Terry he might put a bloody great big sign up over bus. Do you know what I mean? About bus lights on. The travel one and Yvonne's got hers up. I've been over Yvonne's Yeah and expected she hadn't got as much as she No I've been over Yvonne's and yeah I said to Yvonne I ain't got she said you'd be bloody going if you can't get . I said Terry's not going to complain about my Oh you ah! Ha ha. Are you feeling cornered Tony? No.. We don't put up a lot of decorations around the place. I like a really nice simple Yeah that's nice. And we've got we got we've got We've got to have more than a hundred lights on the tree otherwise it's not properly lit. No and we had to have what was it? We haven't got a hundred and twenty and a hundred thirty and last year one of the sets which we've had since we got married we couldn't them to go no matter what we tried. ninety nine pence a set you've got to pay the VAT on top. Do you No. It's bound to be good. They do everything. I'll tell you what it's Christmas I'll tell you what. Do you know bike? Yeah I paid for that thirty two pounds. Good grief. You want to go down there . If you spent more than fifty pounds Yeah You don't pay the V A T. So you haven't got Oh right They've got No no. Have you got to have a er card to get in or No anybody can get in I mean and it's open seven days a week. Wow where is it? What? You know where er the swimming bath with on it. Speed boat No. Samwell Swimming bath. Samwell swimming bath's one of moved er Yeah? No. Do you know where erm you know where the erm go over to er go over erm where the fire station is not the one that white white Whitemore. Do you know where the swin er fire station is Ah yeah. Right. Then you got the fire station That's right. Next to it. No. Next door to there was . Turn down that side bit and it'll bring you to the swimming baths. Turn and go past the swimming baths and take your first right and you're going more or less down to erm where that boy married what you Greenbanks but as you go round you will see a sign Fancy Goods. Yeah It's in house It's a big verge. You've got to follow the signs. Go round into the Industrial Estate turn left your first left and right go right to the end and when you look right there's nothing There's nothing There's just the warehouse But it is lovely inside But it is absolutely stacked all electrical appliances televisions videos all your Christmas trim trimmings and decorations Hm hm erm And you haven't got to spend fifty pounds. No All your Christma no you it's better to have it. They do all kinds of cutlery plates and dinner sets. There's nothing down there. Stacks of toys Our Dawn's got a set of lights for two ninety Two ninety five today. They got the twenty there for er ninety nine pence. the Father Christmas Hm. They've got stacks of Christmas they got walkies they got everything. they got tables they everything for your kids. They got stacks and stacks of toys and a great big. It's very And it's called Fancy Goods It's called Fancy Goods. Right. And they're open ten till five on a Sunday. got to go round it. I don't. Is it the Yeah. We'll find it. You can't mistake it. If you're turn if you go past the swimming baths just past swimming baths and the fork the fork there on your right you take that one. Follow it around a bit this side you will see like a loads of cars. Right? And you'll a road going that way overlap And that It goes into an Industrial Estate And that other place And that's the road your want Just a minute I can't visualise once you get to the swimming baths Yeah They do toys of course. You can walk all round and have a look at the things and then go to the end and pay. I took Herman over there. He knows where it is. Teddy bears from one fifty well? They got all sorts of video erm tapes. A chocolate factory. Yeah that makes me had a chocolate factory can't they? No that could fall down It'll be great Tone Hm mm We can just zip round and pick your stuff up. And come out on the end of Christmas cards Christmas lights. Yeah everything. I can't tell you what they don't do. Yeah All these ornaments any ornaments for Christmas like you know Hm mm Say you wanted a bike. I'll tell you what pay twelve pounds I want a poacher. Poach eggs? Save four pounds over there. Shh Don't I Lorn? Yes lovey. I do I want a poacher egg poacher They does microwaves and all over there You got It varies from one week to the next what they got. Yeah They've got bikes That's right yeah. They must It just snowballs Yeah And erm those. I don't know whether you've ever seen them. Have you seen those and you've got like father Christmases in them. Oh I know. They're ninety nine pounds. I got two I bought four today thirty pounds each just about. Even the winter times on it come and have a look. Yeah. They're ninety nine pence and I paid thirty pence for four today. You can buy a bag of six with a great big . They're only three pounds a bag. Loads and loads of dinners there. I heard I heard Loads and loads of tools. Uh huh. Hm. Screw drivers erm Yeah Spanners sets everything. They got electric . The same electric trains there thirty two. Hm. Clocks you know. And they've got grandfather clocks and all over there. It would be worth going and Hm Yeah. They've got and fifteen pence. Anybody wanting for kids for little kids or something. Oh I'll see if I could get ideas. Yeah Yeah. And they're open seven days a week you say. Seven days a week morning. Ah right. And they're open for almost seven days yeah on Saturdays they're open I think they don't open on the Sunday until ten o'clock. Ah yes Yeah They got mirrors No no working during the week it's really useful to have a place that's open on a Sunday. They've got tights in there this week they got underpants mens underpants in fact he bought . They've got the women's fancy knickers over there and all in front They've got all the knickers. It's so hot women and erm. Some of the ones I passed were two or three pound they're only a pound over there. It's probably Hm. Yeah. I'll find my way over there and perhaps you can come out That'll be nice. On Monday or Tuesday. You know wha they got. I tell you what else. You know these dances like to music. Yeah. Now they're about twelve to fifteen pounds Oh day oh those are dear They're seven fifty in . Now I tell what else we bought over there. It's funny. It's alarm clock but it's in the shape of er bomb. Oh! Right. And it goes and when it goes off you have ten seconds to get up at night then Quickly And then he blasts off and he says we will try once more. When he does that again but as he keeps doing it he gets louder and louder and the bang goes louder and louder. Hm I'm glad you told me about that Lorna I'll tell you what the old fashion alarm clocks they got. Yeah. And they're only one pound twenty five. With the two old fashioned bells on the top. the way I did now. Because we'll have to get you an alarm clock won't we . You won't have any money left Hm. Yeah Yeah. Yeah what do you want to What? Are you Jackie. Sorry? Yeah. There are nine over there for a pack of twenty for about twenty five Yeah. Yeah we'll go over and have a look. Yeah. Yeah. But that's the point His sister-in-law brought a cowboy down for him. Hm? Video tapes. Hm that's good. About twelve. I'm not speaking to my sister-in-law no more . Cowboy was on at half past two this morning. Yeah. Dad we'd better go. Marvellous. We'll be there and see what In private Yeah that's good. All right my darling. Cheerio then. Cheerio see you in a fortnight. Yeah Yeah I do it all the time all go down the dock. Some going and some coming. Looks like it. Hello Rose Hello Hello Pam. Some coming some going Done it again. Here we go . How's Mickey all right. Yeah. Hello David Ah! today Ah yeah. Oh God! Guess what? What? I had my tape running. Oh you didn't? I did. Oh God! I had my tape running. You'll have a good one there. The things is I got list everybody in the order in which they spoke. Would you like to try that one. Oh no thank you Hello Lorn. It's all right Lorna! Lorna! Do you know you're part of a national survey Why? On the spoken word. Why? Because it's something I'm doing and I've just recorded all our conversation here I didn't notice that the microphone. I didn't know what it was. I've got little microphone up here. Good God. look Like like a survey down have you? What have you recorded? What I've recorded and just letting them have the tapes. And just keep a record of the time that I recorded it and er a little bit I've just got to give the first names of the people that were talking but it's done anonymously so there's no no problem with that. You didn't tell him that I got my No no no I didn't Have a see what it's like. Oh that was stupid. Ooh what was that? That crazy fool run out there didn't he shouting out . That was nasty. Bye. See you. Bye. I knew there was some on it. Oh dear. Cheerio. Cheerio. Yes yesterday she was straining the boiling water off the potatoes. Hm hm And it splashed back and burnt all her neck. Oh no! Chow! And she burnt all her neck. Oh that was a good time to have it on Tony It was Conversation on that one So you did I tell you what as well with directions to that place on there as well. The only thing is I think I'd rather try and er find out now we know it's Fancy Goods and look it up in Thompson's local and then find out the address and then we'll find our own way down there. Ya. My God! No those posters all over the boards and there was head. No we'd just picked up Christine from her friend's house and I had sort of half a dozen people On there yeah to on there to note down. Yeah. Somebody I'd never seen before said hello and That was Shane's granddad. Yeah. Aye. You got some in there tonight then Tony? Yeah. Oh that's brilliant. Oh I wanted I wanted not being mean I wanted to get Lorna because she's a classic example of the Bristolian accent. Oh yeah yeah . Yeah . And I even noticed that she she was coming out with the thees and thous that that erm And that's what they want. Yeah They want dialects and accents as well as and if you tell somebody you know it immediately stops them . They don't yeah They talk start talking what they think Yeah is properly. The note says sort of don't tell people until after or unless they ask you Or unless they ask they ask you directly what they're doing and erm No wonder our Tone went to sit down which he don't usually do. as you're being my mum you didn't keep us very long. It was er and when she got worked up about that Fancy Goods place It was really It sounds ever so good though It's it's really coming out. Surprising though cause normally a place like that can need a car Car . Yeah. The thing is I suppose they rely on word of mouth. Yeah Yeah They must do. Well they don't they keep there prices down because they didn't spend a lot on advertising. That's right How's Windy? All right. Are you still still with us? Still captive is he? Oh dear. Seems so funny having a Houdini dog. Seems so funny having a tall dog after having short dogs. Yeah And he's all he's all legs. Oh. Oh they're beautiful. Hm. It's odd though you get used to them. Yeah. He really is all legs. Oh. He's got such a tiny little tummy. Yeah. Hm mm. Big chested where their lungs are for running. Yeah . Yeah . And nothing but miles of legs Yeah . Oh . I must admit a whippet was the dog that I originally wanted. Yeah. Very timid . It's just Yeah. Hm. The trouble is if you're Oh he'll come out if you're the only one in house he follows you and you're looking for him and every time you're moving around he's moving around behind you so you can't find him. I thought I wonder where the hell's he gone. . I mean he was he was immediately behind me. Oh ho ho ho. Oh. He just goes around and I can't find him. You need to take your hand off him and put it round you.. Yeah. He he he keeps really close up to you when he's following you. Hm. Oh. Oh. Oh I reckon they lovely. I really do whippets. He's got a lovely little face on him. Yeah. Cause I'm I'm so used to small dogs. It seems funny to me. Yeah . Yeah . I you we I got used to Wendy's. And you I mean people say whippets are not cuddly but they're just as cuddly you know you get used to picking them up . Picking them up and you get they put one paw on the settee like and I said no Windy and he went Oh . Oh . Of course when he gets over the timidness he'll probably get up to more mischief. I'll tell you what if he's six months old you'll have to watch him chewing as well. Yeah yeah. Because he'll be losing teeth. Yeah. And he'll chew. I only caught Ben chewing once. Ben was eight months old when we had him. He was a bit older Yeah And I thought he's quiet and it was about a week after we had no twice. And once we had it was before we had all our carpet done in the hall Yeah . we had a rug at the top of the stairs Yeah. And he was chewing the corner of this rug and it was all soggy and horrible Yeah And another time he went quiet and he was in the front room and when I went in he was chewing the leg of the settee Yeah. And that's wood. And there's still the teeth marks on it now, Oh yeah We can't get rid of them. a lot about that when you went when they went last year. Oh yeah. Yeah. Laugh. Oh yeah that was lovely. I was worried you wouldn't get the Yeah. You left them in my pocket Remember when we went to Tesco's? I thought so. When you went into Tesco's. I looked in my the other day and I thought I thought now I haven't got it now. I I thought I probably put Put them away. Huh. When you were looking at the door He wasn't looking your way was he? No. I expect you to put these in your pocket And when I went to go to work I pulled me gloves what I thought out of pocket and was going to put them on and I thought er Ooh. Turn the heating down a just a bit. Yeah. Different colour Oh no! It's all new. Anything you say menace here. Cause in the summer when the traffic lights are changing the trees are growing over the ones this side Yeah you've got an awful job to see And all you can see is the red at the top on the other side cause the walls in the way. So if it's green it just looks as if nothing's there which is a bit of a nuisance. Hm. You've got lots of lights on this one Christine. So that whenever Oh yeah They always seem to do a lot just here Oh yeah . This little shop it's lovely. It's only a sort of a hi-fi electrical goods place. It's only a little shop and yet it always seems to have lovely decorations. Tony you know you're prepping Monday and Tuesday Yeah when Sorry? I'm in Castle Week this week. Yeah no I'm talking about is it the week after your prepping? The week after I'm prepping Monday Wednesday Friday. Do you need the Monday? Er I'll tell you what I've just had a thought. Yeah yeah. I won't be able to because Jackie be at work on double shift. Oh yeah. So I got to stay with the dogs and Daddy I'm Until he comes home from work. Yeah Cause he advise you not to leave them on their own for too long. Yeah For the first fortnight three weeks Yeah Yeah That's what I was only be able to on a Sunday or something like that. Yeah. Mummy! You know what we're doing on our Christmas cabaret? Have I told you about that? Yeah. We've got an interview after school Wednesday Well that's fine but you'll have to Is it straight after school? Yeah. Right. We'll have to let Grandma know then Yeah Yeah but will I be allowed to ? Well you'll have to. I mean Just the same don't walk on your own. That's the only trouble when there's buses and that to catch. If you're got extra time it puts you right out. Catching a bus from Mummy I walk home but I walk home really What time do you actually break up? What time do you finish school? Erm half past three Twenty five days we finish half past two So if they kept your half day so that would be four o'clock. It'll be dark And it'll be dark by four Yeah. Normally I get home by about four o'clock Yeah. It's just started to get dark but by the time it's just started to get Yeah. So it'll be just starting to get dark when you leave there? Yeah. Well as long as I can walk with Manda. If I can't walk with Manda then what do I do? Then you don't stay. Make sure you get Manda in the dark. If Amanda's not staying then you won't be able to stay will you? No. It looks like some people going into the park lately. Yeah Look at this! Yeah Good grief! People oversh over shooting that bend. And there's an accident up by the Flying Fox is it? Up end of airport road there up that way? Oh! Some erm motorway police chasing a car evidently he went into the bollard and ripped the car open. They said he was lying in the road. Oh dear Oh. That was early this morning. Yeah. Mm. Saw a brilliant light for a cycl . Show Jackie in a minute all that guff about laughter Michael's chest he's got back of his . Now how's my other baby? All right? Love dog. You my other baby. All right? Yes. The other night though we walked round and we walked bang into the entrance to the field Yes You know walked right the way down and you couldn't see No He's he's gone Hello Fred. Oh he's beautiful! Laugh So you'll be all right. He's a bit nervous I think Yeah. He's very timid now. Yeah. Yeah last week. Yeah Yeah . Yeah He's definitely got He knows everything. Yes. You're lovely! And a bit of don't they. Well he's never seen you before he's danger Yeah. Oh he's lovely dog! How he carries his tail Yeah. He won't carry it like that Not walking yeah. That's nerves yeah. Oh. When he's out walking he's upright very up right. Aha. And his tail will just hang then down between his you know Get it down my love. It'll hang naturally. Yeah. Did you get your what can you smell? Do you smell another little dog is that what it is? You smell another little dog? Hm? Do you smell another little dog? Tony have you got any change? Have I got any change? Change of what? I thought I'd give Jackie three pounds forty eight. So if I gave you one pound fifty Yeah that's fine. we owe you two pence Two pence . Oh oh I can't do that. No way No way Jack. Thank you. Tony's got your money. Oh lovely thank you very much. Well don't read all the books Okay. You can give her what she wants as long as she puts it down on the as long it's over fifty you can give her what you want. I gave her a pound. Over fifty I gave her a pound Oh you'll have to get him vaccinated . Yeah . Yeah cause he's had a temporary one. He's had a temporary one. Yes. Yes. But it's not the full vaccine is it? Within the first six weeks . It says you can yeah. No he hasn't got that. Full one. Full one. How did you catch him? Didn't I didn't Oh yeah he dashed oh sorry. He was playing down the dog's home in the car park. So How did they catch him in the dog's home that's what I was thinking. Well he just just Ah I see. Yeah. They must of called him and he went in. Oh! come in. When they came in to work they park their cars and he was playing in the car park. I mean it's marvellous. I mean you have No how he found his way back again Yeah. It's marvellous. Don't forget he got to Yeah. It's not like a race track is it? Yeah. Yeah. I mean you can't Oh maybe he's got the speed to manage it He has. Yeah. He's not very er He's getting better though. It's marvellous. sort of explosive. Yeah. Yeah. They go Yeah. Oh he can Oh this is this is micro chip wonder. Yeah. Tony this is bar code Oh right Oh it makes you sound like they're groceries doesn't it? Yeah. Yeah . Yeah. I think This one's been on before. Mummy! Oh. Mummy this one's been on before. This one. There's two girls and they murdered this boy. Is that the first part was on last week? And this is the second part. Yeah but I think this is starting. No that girl This is second the second part of this mystery. It's a two part mystery and it was on last week and it's on this week. How did whoever get killed? They poisoned the mushroom soup. I see. The mushroom soup. Yeah. I know how they did that as well. Do ya? Yeah. With erm toadstools. Yeah but all of them ate it and he was still he was the only one that died. Hm. Yeah. We haven't done it yet. Because he's never off the lead. No no. But you still think well Yeah Hm That's right yeah. You never can tell. He didn't run out there once. In the really really windy weather Yeah he didn't go out. The door got blow out front Isn't Mum? The door got blown open. Yeah. You won't be the first in the front there. Oh lovely. It's the ones that come up every year. Isn't it Matt? Yeah. It makes a difference. Is it perennial the ones they call them ones that come up every year? Perennials. I think so. Perennials. Stomach pains. Violent pains. Can't you complain about anything else. Isn't that enough. That's what you get when someone throws the pans at you. Did your sister have any specific worries or problems? You mean apart from being married to him? Are you all right? I think Amanda's ? Yeah. We played erm game murder in the dark. Mm mm. Erm . You got this piece of paper and it's got murder victim policeman and judge. Yeah And you fold them up and you put them in something. You pull one out and whatever it says on there you've got to pick and if there are a policeman judge victim then you just walk around the room. If you are the murderer you've got to walk around the room and do that to somebody. And then they fall down and die and they give a signal er they scream and they pick something up. And then Mm. And then the judge has got to ask the people where they were and then you've got to clap something so they clap clap and then you've got to point at somebody. Mm mm. And and then you just keep going like that. But one thing you've got to turn out all the lights. Everybody's How many of you were there down there then? Four. there was the murderer victim judge policeman. Oh when you have a dog from there and you can't keep it You can take it back. You can take it back. Yeah but you must have it you mustn't pass it on to anybody else. Oh. If you find it too difficult to manage or Hm mm. But it's actually now made out as an adoption of the dog. Yeah. You don't own it. You adopt it to bring it back. Hm hm. What's that Dad? Oh! You've been lovely. Yeah Yeah . They flatter him up there at didn't they Tony? Sparks flying out of the back of the Oh yeah. horses heels. Oh! Quite a stocky horse wasn't he? Oh yeah yeah. Hm So he's good really for you to ride him really cause he's Yeah Mm mm. That was your wrong. my job. Ah! Yeah Granddad had a Consul didn't he? And a Rover. And a Rover. But before the Rover he had a Consul. Mm. Estate yeah. There's something here about bed. It says here don't put it likely to be very insecure and may misinterpret what reaction. It says your umbrella. Yeah. You can't get unless you've got a broom in your hand or a brush. It's not as bad now as it used to be No No Stays awake. He walked he won't walk past you won't walk past you he'll walk back. If you're hoovering. If you're hoovering he'll go all the way round to try Yeah to try and keep away from Windy don't like the Hoover. I put it on this morning he didn't like it. Hm. Oh it's not that there isn't it? There you've got a new friend now. Isn't that nice? All new friends. Leave him alone. Fred leave Windy alone. No thanks Dad. Yes. No he hasn't got any use of no. He's so good seeing he's only been here two days. job. Mind you he'll change a lot. Oh yes as he gets used to you Yeah. he'll got more lively. Yeah. We found that with Ben and he changed Ben changed when when he actually matured. Yeah. Because the postman milkman he didn't take any notice until he matured. Yeah and then Then all of a sudden Yeah You know and But they are they're pretty docile type of dog but they're a chaser. Yeah Yeah Yeah They tend to like We've Yeah. And erm with a dog that moves that quickly he's not just a chaser he's a catcher as well Yeah Yeah definitely. I notice that with Ben. He saw something erm he saw a cat and he zoomed out the front door and he was gone and it's only when he lost sight of the cat he thought about where he was Yeah He just went straight for him and you know he just didn't think about where he was going or anything and he And when he comes to look round He was completely lost And as it was I could see him and I called him and he looked over and he saw me and he came dashing across all the gardens. He was ever so pleased to see me. Yeah. But he see a cat and choo he's gone Yeah. You know cause it's all been on here. Yeah I suppose so. I first when I come in this morning Fred was on his blanket. Then once this morning Fred's bum was on his blanket and Windy curled up by the side of him. Well they can't be arch enemies to do that can they? But when he gets up he unwinds. Yeah. And curly And then he stretches and he stretches so far And he gets longer and longer Yeah You wonder how much longer he's gonna Can he get yeah He won't get much bigger though from what I Wendy's dog he's nearly there Yeah No. He's pretty much all brown isn't he? I didn't expect him to be quite that big but he I said to you he was pretty tall. Yeah. Yeah Yeah. Leave the door open a minute Christine it's a bit warm in here. Yeah. Shall I take the out? Yeah. Oh year I mean outside Oh no. It says in here six weeks. Yeah No with them being so fast it's not No. Yeah but I think it's a period of six weeks. I mean that gives them time to become accustomed. He'll go backwards and forwards in that field so often. Yeah. Yeah. He said you weren't to let a new dog off the lead until he had for six weeks Gosh! I think perhaps if you go over the field after Ben she would make Yeah. After about six weeks you know. He certainly seems to know his way around now doesn't he? He can find us Especially us. It's the first time he's been brought out this way as far as we know Yeah And er he wasn't walked up. He was brought up in a car. It's fascinating how he found his way down there. Yeah. I though He doesn't know where he lives Round that erm I think he was found may I need to ask? Oh yeah. It's not that far is it? Isn't it funny that Ben come from . Yeah yeah. And he's so lovely. I mean he don't although Fred is totally different breeding it's Fred's his eyes. Yeah yeah it's very much like that. Mm and the ears are very similar. Only Ben's stand right up. Yeah. But flop down. But Ben's flop down sometimes uh huh. Most of the time they flop down. And he's Well not like that. If Ben was led like that he'd they'd be up straight. Yeah. I think there might be a whippet Jack Russel cross. He's very long in the body for a Yeah small dog. Yeah. Mm. He's got quite a long body which is what Yeah. Did you have a good tea at Manda's? I had a little bit to eat. Oh good. First er to answer me back Mm. Do you know did it say how much it is? Hm yeah. We can think about it after Christmas. We can't do it now. Or next year. Yeah. Is it? Oh oh that's in good time. February/March we've had time to get over Christmas. Yeah. And the massive amount of money we're going to spend on my birthday present. Oh Oh yeah? Yeah. Oh Windy got nothing of yours over there. Why you're going to take me out to er Easy Runner aren't you? Specialist running shop up in Saint Michaels Hill. Oh yeah. They've got several in erm I suppose they are sport they are sport shoes covers running. Yeah. There are lots of shops about it's er sports shoes . There a lots lots of shops about that spell sell sports shoes Yeah And they got shoes for squash and shoes for Yeah And shoes for tennis and shoes for this and shoes for that. But this But the other ones are for running? yeah and they sell running shoes as well. But this one is a running specialist. They do nothing but sell equipment for runners. And the people who run the shop are runners themselves and you can sort of go to them and ask their advice on all sorts of things What special Yeah. support and that you need? Yeah all sort of things like that. Mm. Erm and not just shoes. You might go up there and er I dunno you what's what's a good way of getting myself seen when I'm going out running at night and things like that you know and they'll give you advice and they'll say well there's this you can use or that Yeah Or you know about all sorts of running problems. Did you fill up your form about your voices. Mm? You've filled in your form about your voices . Yeah I've done that. What you put? Hm? Shouting match. No I've got to put first name Hm mm. Occupation Hm mm. Male or female All this the first one on on that bit? Well I reckon Aunty Iris was the first one cause she said oh hello Yeah how are you? And then Lorna started. Yeah Huh and then Lorna went on and then And then Lorna went on Yeah. And then you said something Mm. And I already had Jackie because Jackie had been speaking earlier on the tapes. So I put Aunty Iris and then Lorna then you. Mm mm. I was watching the television and then all of a sudden it's too late and then found out it's hard work. Notice I done your clothes cupboard out again? No never noticed. Oh all right. Yeah yeah yeah. You were able to find it more easily weren't you? Oh yes yes. instead of being rolled up in a ball Oh Jackie he was he was looking he was for something and he was looking for something in a hurry and I couldn't find out I like T-shirts in one pile sweat shirts in another pullovers in another jeans in another but they were all sort of I had to sort them all out again so you can see what he got up there. I tend to put sweat shirts and jumpers together. Yeah well what I do sometimes I wear a thing just once and I think well it's not dirty so I put it back in. Yeah. That's right and a Parker pen. No no I like a separate pile for sweat shirts and pullovers and jumpers. Well the proper place is in the cupboard. It doesn't matter where but as long as it's in the cupboard . No no . Oh yes it does. It matters. It's bad I know I If you go up and want a T-shirt you go to that pile. If you go up and want a sweat shirt you go that pile. If I want a T-shirt I don't go to any pile I go to the hangers. Because I hang my T-shirts up. Oh I hang my shirts and my T-shirts up. and my sweat shirts and jumpers I I fold up and they're all in together. Well we don't together. It might be because I keep looking at mine and . I must sort that out . Of course ours will be high up Yeah yeah. so you can't push anything in the back. No you you got a more or less get up on something to sort it out. Yeah so overdue for getting up there and sorting. Erm Hm hm. So Good. But once I decide that's settled I'd notice it cause you couldn't seem to get down. All the others you didn't see cause they're down at the bottom so when this lot Hm mm So that particular one seems to be late tonight. And it's as if it wasn't floating on the surface and it was doing all the things that fishes do but it was Is What is it? They called it dropsy. Oh yeah. This one they say. And they say it's very rare. Mm mm. But they say the fish gets that's one one of the symptoms it gets very bloated out. Bloated. They say if it gets it take the fish out and destroy it but it's knowing it Yeah you might be destroying it and it might just over ate That's right the fish won't you? Ah ha Gosh! He's got a coat just like Ben's hasn't he? Yeah. Silky and er No I don't I made it like mug soup not plain soup. Yeah. So greeny isn't it? Yeah. Let the grain go well er matured Oh I loved that bit in Shogun I don't know if you remember it. Or whether you saw it at all. But they had er Richard Chamberlain shot pheasant Yeah And he hung it up outside his house Yeah To let it get let it rot. Let it get gamey and he's erm Chinese assistant the person who has been assigned to sort of look after him and do his do his translating and things like that took it down and buried it cause they didn't eat rotten meat they did Oh you can't beat a wet shave I don't like Gillette No. You can't beat a wet shave I find I find I mean people have said that oh having a wet shave makes my face sore and things like that. I find that using an electric shaver makes your face sore cause you're rubbing your face all the time. Whereas But I mean with a blade it's only one That's right Yeah yeah . and it's all I mean I use this gel stuff Hm which doesn't dry the skin dry the skin out or anything and erm it's just like washing your face with water. I mean it doesn't I used to hate it when I was doing plays there and you have er grease paint on and you'd be you'd try and you'd have to cream on your face to get the grease grease paint off . Get it off . And so you'd be putting lots and lots of grease and much on your skin and then you get spots. Yeah And you'd be trying to shave and you don't want to cut spots. Err! Oh! Horrible! And the cream actually brought you out in spots did it? That they were putting on or was it the actual make up or? Well it's just it's not the the grease the make up or the cream it's the fact that you're you're putting so much muck on your skin all the time and it clogs up pores and causes spots. Cause you have to put a lot of cream on your face to get the make up off and you do that especially if you're doing two performances a day it's an awful lot mess and much you're putting on your face and you can't get it all off Done anything about a Christmas presents yet Jack? Yeah. which got a lot more space. Oh! Three drawers down one side and it's got it Oh! And there's a support the other side is a book shelf. Oh that's nice. Hm. Yeah got one exactly the same as that except it's wooden. It's got three doors one side and a book shelf the other side. Hm. It's wood. It's got red handles. As same as Is it nice? Yeah. Where's that Grace is it? Yeah. Hm. It's like you know at the moment Yeah. On the bookshelf of the side. Oh. You might be able to decide which side you want it on then Christine. Yeah Yeah . Because if you're right handed It's a flat pack Yeah. Mum is it wooden? I don't know. It's erm Well it er it will be wood but whether it's covered over whether it's wood grain or whether it's white or I don't know. They might have a selection. They might have it done in white black and wood. Hm. So we I think we might go with mightn't we? Hm mm. Hm. Did she decide what she's doing with her money yet? Still making less She's more or less she's er We're gonna have to hurry up now. Yes. She's going get Aunty Iris' yeah. And if there's any over she might be able to get some other bits for it. Desk yeah. I mean she she might want to buy a nice desk. No she's got a desk tidy. She's got a desk tidy. Yeah What might be an idea is to get her some good blotters. Not ones with blotting paper. No no I know Yeah I know. Yeah because this one because it's easier to write on than er than a wooden . Yeah it's like er a very a layer of plastic with a very thin layer of sort of felt underneath. So when you write it's soft. It's was like you were writing on a writing pad. Because you don't feel right on wooden table it's quite hard isn't it? Yeah. Well it makes it it's a nice soft surface for you to write on. You mean something like sort of like a board. Like Daddy had in That's right. Yeah only This After having a think. I reckon most of your books will go in that bookcase. Which would mean you could you could have your work I could put my little shell boxes on top of the shelf. That's right. You could put all sorts of little things in there. But let's wait and see cause I'll take you out and we'll have a look. Perhaps next weekend. Yeah. What is it another free weekend? Right I reckon I'm going to get he just folds up. Peculiar. You'd never think he'd go into that sort of ball. I must admit they're lovely to cuddle because they do curl up into a ball. They love cuddling. Oh yeah. Let's wait and see. See what we can get. If there isn't any chance you could get a I'd just love to get that. Could I? Make it first on the lead. No. Because I think Thursday Daddy'll be working. Oh yeah well You've got to have it when there's least disturbance. There are two problems with that. There are things certain things I'm committed to and to have time off means I still got to be able to do those things. Do you see what I mean? So I've got to watch that. But I could manage. I could certainly manage to have a half day. Yeah. And if we we're looking around in town. Well we will be. Could I have a day off? It's a bit late. Okay but This is it. If we going out you'd have to you'd have to come and get me and we'd go straight off . Well the thing is Yeah. The thing is. The other thing erm is that I haven't got any leave. Oh hell no! Of course I've got my leave Yeah. I haven't got any leave. What I've got enough leave to take the time off over Christmas. That's all agreed. But I haven't got any extra. And I already took a half day off flexi leave . Daddy'll we'll have to do it . I've already took a half day off flexy leave to have my driving test last week And if you do it on the tenth Hm. Erm and I really want to I will build up some more time but I haven't got any to take at the moment. Look we've got to sort your bedroom out first. First job. You don't have it till Christmas anyway. Oh but Now I don't get any more leave till February now. I've got some leave You'll have to get it first . But what I've got booked is that I finish when's Christmas? Is it a Wednesday? I finish the Friday before that Wednesday. That's nice. And I don't go back until the Thursday after New Year's day New year's day . That's lovely. And we've both got that lecture time off and so but that's used up all my leave. I haven't got any more to take until after February. Well how do you feel either tomorrow night? No perhaps not tomorrow night. Tuesday night about seeing if we can do a bit more sorting out in her bedroom. Cause if we leave it all till the weekend we don't do it. You know what it's like? Yes. Specially now Brian's got your driving lessons instead of the middle of the day? Yeah. The only other thing is to er it's no good. We've got to do things in the morning. Yeah. It opens till nine o'clock any night. Erm I don't know. But but if you if you wanted to er come and meet me from work we could go straight off somewhere then. Yeah but you see the thing is that if I come and meet you by the time you no point. We don't get home till ten to six. So that if we have to go to Brislington we won't get there until ten to six. You know what it was like when we went to Tescos. Be fair after work . Yeah but it's open till eight o'clock. Oh yes it's open till eight. If they were open till late you could er Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know a lot of places that will be open late. All the shops in town are open late on one night a week. Yeah. But I can't remember what night it is. I'll phone them up then and see. I believe in in town. What? Or easier still I'll tell you what. Hm. mm. I'm going into Tesco tomorrow I've got a feeling If I get back Yes. God knows where M F I is in If I get him to drive me round now I'll remember which way to go. Mm. It's not very far off the beaten track Mm. I'll have a look round Yeah And then we'll have to see if we can sort out something else. I mean Because we'll find it. On the weekend we've got so much Yes you've got no time to do it. Mm. We don't get a chance. What we're trying to get the washing and ironing up together and the house work and everything is well you just don't get time to do it. Hm. We did have this problem before but we started earlier didn't we? Last Christmas? No. Oh no I we had some time off didn't we? Yeah we did. I haven't get any time off I can take now. I could possibly have a half day next Monday. Well let me go over and have a look at it and see what they've got. They may have more than one Because this week I'm I'm doing a five day course I tend to add on about an hour to my time every day. Yeah. Cause I tend to do half past eight till half past five with no lunch. If I do that that's five hours I'll have built up in one week. Yeah. So I could take out half a day Yeah then. Come on Fred. Super Fred. His little legs will going so fast you won't see them Yeah zoom! There'll be Fred waddling along. He's all legs. Hello there! Hello. Hello. We haven't even had a yet Tony. Oh dear. round there that Pauline brought but Glad I came. Tony, your office isn't in there. I thought they'd hidden me away in a cupboard. Hello . Hello. I think it's to that one Yeah cos er and if you say for all enquiries please call that. They Yeah. They do actually call that Yeah. still don't know that this isn't office . Good. Thank you very much for . It was really nice. Pleasure. Well can we deal with any of their enquiries? I don't know Hello Tony. How are you? Okay. How's it going? It's alright. Not too bad. But erm the only thing is the er you did the put together a document,file Yeah. Oh. So Let's pretend then is it? So like the space you did? Yeah. And let let them have one I had something Erm can I apologize in ad , in advance Tony, but on Wednesday morning Yes? we shall need to interrupt just very briefly to move a couple of things out. Yeah. That's okay. Alright? Erm I'm asking for it to be done first so hopefully Mhm. it'll be while you're settling down rather when it's your er Good. We, we're starting at nine Yeah. so you know. Well I'm hoping they'll come at half past eight. In which case we'll be finished before you get there. Just in case. I think it's only three items to be moved out for you. Not stuff to be moved in. Good. So you've got some I got eight. You got eight? Yeah Mm It's something I'm doing at the moment. Really? Yeah. Mm. So if, if you wanna be wiped off I can do that. But if you've no objections? No, none at all. That's alright. It's all in this thing here. It's just that er I'm telling everybody. Mm. How did you find out about that? Ah somebody approached me. Came to my house and Mhm. when we they found out what sort of job I did Mm. their eyes lit up. Cos they were trying to fill their quota Mm. and they couldn't find anybody living round by me that were employed. Oh So Certainly not in my age group. Yeah. So er Oh, brilliant. So I get the little gift voucher . It just means sort of walking around recording Mm. It's no problem. And they give me all the equipment I need. Yeah. So er Mm. Great. I, I thought that everybody would I haven't done it on erm I was wondering about recording a training session. Mm. But then first day I was with them. It's the first day I've been with them and I thought I don't know. See how it goes. Mm. I might might check them out to see if they would mind if we did something later on in the week. Mhm. They've got to do it till Friday Mm. anyway. Mm. So going to be talking to won't you?. actually it doesn't matter because it's they'll think their offices have been bugged. Oh it's good. It's quite interesting. Yeah. Better show Margaret as well. Margaret. Can I just show you that. Okay? Yeah. Where's this come from? Well it's erm something I'm involved in. And er something I switched the erm recorder on just before you walked in to see if it recorded. What for the whole of the morning? No no, no. Just just when I was here. Just a minute ago. But er if you've any objections I'll wipe it off but All I can say is that people who hear my voice keep saying don't you sound like Pam Ayres. Who comes from a totally place to me. Yes, one or two. Yeah. Erm Oh I was just trying to remember what, what was said. Something to do with Ah Jerry said something quite good about availability. Erm like you can't although peop people will go for jobs, now produce proof of jobs they've applied for. You can't tell whether they really want the jobs or not. Yeah. And and it is So they're actually seeking then? Yeah. Well I suppose not really. No. It shows that they've applied for the job. It doesn't show that they wanted it. Yeah. They really tried. Yeah. There's no way you can know that unless you've got the from the Job Centre that these And gives feedback on how they turned up and Yeah. and all this sort of thing. Yeah. But er That's what really makes something, something very odd came out of that, this Ann said something I thought what? And and the thing is I didn't understand it. So it's quite difficult to remember exactly what she said. Mm. Erm something to do with no. I can't think. Trouble is when you don't understand it it doesn't sink in. No that's right. But everybody sort of. I remembered Have you? Yeah. It's a bit like a single office group. sitting in and we're trying to split them up cos we don't want too Yeah. Which, which they did. But they've gone back now to sitting altogether. So. What's a data type for changing date of birth? Thanks. I couldn't, I was asked and I just couldn't think of it. Yeah And there were no guide fives. No. Otherwise I'd have said look it up. Yeah. And I didn't have any Treas keys so I couldn't tell them to use the help service. All my options were gone. Oh, Judy asked after you. How, how you were getting on. So I said you were getting on okay You lied you mean. Yeah, she's nice, Judy. Yeah.? Yes. She fell about at one point. When I said thank you for that. Evidently she was sta , she was a trainer at one point was she? Yeah. Yes up to about four months ago. So they use trainer speech Yeah. So I'm having to watch that. Martin. even numbers but Tony got thirteen Yeah. That's great. It's my birthday on the thirteenth. Is it? Yeah. Erm always been lucky, especially when it falls on a Friday. Really lucky. That's this year isn't it? Friday the thirteenth? This month? Ah. Not, not this month, no. February. Whenever it falls on a Friday it's always a very good birthday. Erm I've put these codes in my box. Yeah. Being nice. Yeah. And sort of not wanting them to go astray. Yes. I've now got them on my desk and I don't know where to put them. Could you politely suggest Those three cabinets. Oh right. Alright. So research sort of Ah. Huh. I've lost my bearings now. I don't know where anything is. Well I I want the cabinet with all the supplies for the trainees. For erm tea, coffee and stuff. Yeah. Tea and coffee? I know it was was it on the bottom of the A to Z thing? I wouldn't know. The A to Z file's in there. There's a big Tony. A to Z files in? The A to Z files are over there. Right. I think that's where it is. And . Yeah there's only two lots of cabinets. One lot over there and one lot there. Paid the phone bill and the Access. Oh great. Okay. And I'll go and see the building this morning. Oh! knocked at the door at ten past eight. Oh! And he kept persisting because he saw a light on. Oh. You know? So I didn't know what . through the door again the bugger. That's right. Ah. Our dad had a you know? Mad, innit? Oh I haven't got much to do now then. That's one skirt, two sweatshirts. And your jeans and that. I've nearly done, about another quarter of an hour or so. Mhm. Okay? Yeah. . Make us some tea okay? Okay. No the course went alright today. Good. Are they a reasonably nice group? Mm. They're not, you haven't got any troublemakers? No. One or two a bit odd. A bit odd! But they're alright. What do you mean a bit odd? Erm there's one girl who's a bit erm Weird? Define odd Er She's very very sure of herself. Oh one of those. But she's wrong. Yeah. Oh well I'm sure you can knock her into shape. Oh yeah. say Find it a bit easier now you've done three as well? I, I feel more confident, yeah. Yeah. I just sort of say no, er Yeah. . Must turn that radio off. It's driving me nuts actually. Yeah. You can have too much of a good thing. Or a bad thing as the case may be. Yeah. I've been listening to it for a while. Mhm. I've got a oh I've got a carol practice tomorrow. Yeah. So I'm not gonna be able to get to the building society until Wednesday. Well that's their tough luck. It's their mistake. Yeah okay. So So long as you feel like that. I'm not that brokenhearted and I'm, no I'm annoyed. Does the standing order form say what day of the month it's to be taken out on? Do you have to fill that in? On the such and such day of the month innit? Don't think it does. Cos I filled it all out and I don't remember having to if there had been anything like that I'd have asked you about it. No I'm fed up with them. This is twice now they've done this to us. Yeah. You know. They Yeah. Well I'll go in and see them and sort it out. But Only I've got a horrible feeling if it's not until Wednesday not done by now It won't be right this month either. It won't be right this month either, but if that's the case Yeah. we can write an extra cheque. Yeah. You know? That's right. But I'd rather if you didn't mind that you did go in and sort it out cos she said well put a cheque in the envelope with the standing order form but I mean No. That's just they've already putting it frankly cocked it up once. Yeah. Another opportunity for them to do it again. That's right. What cheque! Yeah. I didn't see a cheque! There wasn't a ch , just a standing order form, that's all we got. You know? Yeah. Cheque number blah blah blah written on Yeah. It doesn't make any difference, it's just you know hassle. Yeah. This skirt is horrible. I was keeping it for cleaning the car. And I'm having to resort to Oh. some paint splashes . I'm looking forward to our tour round the chocolate factory next Wednesday. Yeah it'll be nice. Be interesting. Next Wednesday? Yeah. Erm Right. We'll go out and see Auntie Bettie before then. So Mm. I'm not in class next Wednesday. Oh great. The only fly in the ointment is if it starts at seven, it's going to be a bit of a rush. Cos you don't usually get home until ten to six. No. And after all the fuss that's been going on in work I don't really like to ask to go early. No. If you see what I mean. Mhm. But. I got two Helens in the group. Oh that's nice. Helen, yes yes . Luckily they've sat themselves on opposite sides of the room. Oh that's good. So you look at one. Yeah. So I can look at one and say Helen? When they sit together you've got problems. Yeah! Fine. Er. Mum! Hello. Can you do my coat for me. Pardon? Take everything out the pockets and then Okay do the buttons and the zip up. Will you? Yeah. Better bring my book up to date. I've See what I mean about that skirt? Yeah. It's horrible. Is that beer alright that I bought for you? Yeah. Yeah I I had a vague recollection of you drinking Newcastle Brown sometime and quite liking it. You certainly did. And I know you quite liked this didn't you? Yes I did. So It's quite strong, but Well. Well it says strong lager, that's why I bought it. Yeah. Stop saying yeah in that tone of voice. I found in the bottom can I talk to you while you're doing that or? Yeah. I found in the bottom of the freezer some pork that I didn't know we had. Yeah. Pork loin steak and Mhm two packets of chicken breasts that I didn't know we had. So in having a clear out I Oh good. It was quite good today. But I've thrown a few things out, as well. That were in the freezer and they'd obviously been in there for a bit too long. Yeah. So a couple of bits have gone. Mhm. Oh that was a disappointment, there's another sweatshirt lurking under there that I didn't see. Oh. Ooh. Gonna have a cup of tea in a minute? Yeah. Whenever it's ready actually cos my back's aching so Okay. Well it's made. I've only gotta Well if you go up to pour it out. I'll finish this last sweatshirt and then I'll Okay. have a sit and a cup of tea. see in a minute something's gonna go in that I swear it is. I've narrowly missed it about three times already. Now the problem with them doing a course the worst the worst bit is erm the Wednesday. Yeah. You're not halfway through. Well, sometime Wednesday you go, you really go through it cos you you're not you're not halfway through but you're still but you've done quite a bit. Yeah. It was Wednesday night last time I did this course I felt really whacked. Yeah. And you're gonna feel it this time as well because having that cold. Yeah. Think erm I'm getting er oh getting better. Things don't throw me as much now. No. Well it will I mean Found out one, one of them used to be a staff trainer. Used to be? Yeah. Well used to be's don't count. Well I actually said thank you for that and she dissolved into fits of laughter. Why did she tell you that? So I I've got to avoid no that's I wondered. And she told me then, after that, why she'd laughed. No. Explain it again. You've lost me somewhere. I said thankyou for that at the end of an exercise. Yeah. And she said and she di dissolved into fits of laughter. And I won , and I didn't know why. Thanks. Have you poured out one for Christine ? Yeah. Can you bring hers in, or she's gonna create hell biscuits . She's had bran flakes. She . Mm. And er so I said she dissolved into fits of laughter so after that she explained it by saying well I used to be a trainer and I know how I got to avoid the stock phrases. You alright? Christine, there aren't enough biscuits for us to have one each. You can have a Snack if you want but if you do you won't have one for school tomorrow. You've had two bowls of cereal, you're not starving are you? There's some chocolate chip cookies out there if you want some. I'm gonna have there are some crumbs in those packets but they're impossible to get out. Oh well. Crumbs don't count. Don't worry about that. No. They'll be will they just get washed out? They'll get washed out, yeah. Erm do the zip up and tie a bow in those strings. Life-sense Oh ow! What've you done? Ow! Ow What've you done? Let me see. Christine let me see, what have you done? There's nothing there. What did you do? Bend your nail back? Yeah. I I could have sworn that they came off my skin. Feels like it but it's just where it bends back and it pulls it out straight. That's why it's horrible. Do you mind eating a bit later on? No. I've st still got this sort of this sort of Are there any Rice Crispies mum? Oh aren't there any out there? Oh that's it then. I still got this little housewife feeling that it ought to be ready when you come in the door you know . Well there's a couple of hours of good telly on tonight. Good. There's erm Will I be able to move the car up outside the house a bit later on? Did you notice when you came in? I didn't. Sorry. There's Telly Addicts. And Life-sense? Yeah. Erm Rumpole of the Bailey. Er and there's erm just trying to see. A Mike Hammer film st starring Stacey on later. I said Okay. I don't want I'm with you. And I told her and she said I didn't hear anything. It's good that. Mm. It's alright. Christine. Do you trust my judgement about your desk? So if I were to go out tomorrow and see one and it was nice Mm. and I got it, would that suit you? Mm. Depends if I could have it still tomorrow or not. Well you can't have it until your bedroom's sorted out and Yeah but once my bedroom's sorted out. Well you've been told you can have your desk and your chair, but you're not gonna have your lamp and erm some other bits. I've got an office supply shop right near me. You know I, we were talking Yeah? about getting her a a and that? Mhm. Probably get something in there. Yeah. Mummy, turn the television over please. On to one. If you don't mind. On to anything but that. I'm gonna do my french sheets. So I might ask dad to help me put on the roof-rack. The roof-rack isn't behind the steps is it? It's sort of on top of everything? Can't remember. No, neither can I. I'd quite like to record that Watchdog programme. In car Yeah. safety. Oh . Little beetle pushing his pile of whatever along. Well you know whatever don't you? It's half past seven that's on. In half an hour. Wogan's going! Yeah I see. Yes! Hip hooray Mummy So when are gonna get they won't get, be able to get Jonathon Woss. No way. Selina Scott or Ann Diamond or somebody. Yeah. Do you know when? Erm no. It's just, they just announced this morning that he's, and he's asked to go. Mm. It's not that he's being kicked out. My pencil case is breaking. I know. It's only the lining though. I really liked that that one. And that one's great. I'll see this little bit then I'll go and finish that ironing and would you record er Watchdog for me? Yeah. On car safety Do you wanna make a cup of tea? If we're eating later Yeah. Have we got any crisps? not a lot in there. I was gonna get some more tomorrow. When am I gonna have my tea? Erm I can get your tea in a minute. No no I don't mind. Ha ha I just she just said to me you any good at German . I looked at it an I said that's French. And she said I know but are you any good at German. Sorry. I'll erm get some kitchen roll. Put tissue over it. Mm. What's this gonna sound like on that tape. I know what I'm getting . I know what I'm getting . no look. Don't break them. No. Oh don't do that. Right. I don't mind. I don't mind. You choose. Ooh. Alright? Ah. Is she a shepherd or just an old crook? Can I have a crisp Oh dear. I must admit I like to see that, because so many people, if a dog had to lose a leg they'd say put it to sleep, put it to sleep. Mm. Yeah And why? If you lost a leg they'd stick a false one on you or give you a set of wheels. Mm. Right. So why kill it why kill a dog because it's gonna lose a leg. Mm. It's got well you've only got two. You lose yours, one of yours and it's a disaster. Mm. If a dog loses one, well it's still got three to get on with, you know? Yeah. It's hardly a handicap at all to a dog. It's happened to one dog and he learned to walk like a human Mm. He walked like a human. . And he spun right round and he like that. And they said get up. And he rolls over and then he sort of put his legs up. I can't remember no he sort of I can't do it. But to lose a leg for a dog is hardly a handicap at all. Mm. Cos they've got three others. They just lose their balance occasionally. Well that's why a dog that limps slightly very often there's practically nothing wrong with it. Yeah. If it thinks it's gonna hurt it will limp. Yeah Whereas people, if you've got a painful leg you've got to walk on it. Whereas a dog might have a slightly painful leg and it will limp like hell. Mm. Yeah. Cos it doesn't have to use it. Oh no we've got some really hard numbers french if I had a dictionary I could look it up but I haven't. Right. Who can claim income support? Er to be over eighteen is it? Erm some people under eighteen can claim. Who are the main area of people that we deal with? A generalization for most of the people we see coming in? Most people. Unemployed. Unemployed. Unemployed. Yeah. So people who are unemployed can claim income support. Any other people apart from people who are unemployed that can claim income support? Those on low incomes? Low income, yes. Anyone else? Training courses. Training courses. You know? Like U T and Right. They're actually paid a training allowance, which is related to income support. But it isn't their income support. Mm. So anything anyone else who might receive income support? Old age pensioners. Pensioners. Yes. Anyone else? If you're disabled? Erm yes but they normally receive their erm Disability allowance. their own benefits. Yes related to disability. But yes they can if they don't receive enough from other means. Yeah. Yes. It's what the government Think I heard that one That's quite an old one There's No it's alright. There's erm there's one other erm group of people that might be able to claim One parent families. Yeah. Single parents. That's another very common one. Yep. Single parents. Right. So what factors decide what you get under income, income support? Your income I suppose.? Erm means tested. Yeah, yeah. So looking at somebody's needs and what are the sort of things they're likely to take into account? Yeah How many there are in the family. Income. Er how many in the family? Yes. Number of dep Number of children. Number of children. Is that opposed to the number of adults Erm as well as. As well as. Financial commitments. Financial commitments. Mortgage Housing Yes. Mortgage will They will help with the mortgage. What happens about rent? Get some housing benefit. Yeah. They can claim housing benefit. That isn't income support, that's another benefit that they claim from the Local Authority. So if they're in rented accommodation then they will need to make a claim to a Local Authority for that. What other things might D S S take into account? Poll tax. Savings. Er savings. You mentioned poll tax. Erm another, another thing you can claim is relief from paying poll tax. So it's not directly linked with income support. You claim relief from the people who collect poll tax. But the fact you are claiming income support is a factor that they look at. So if you were in receipt of income support then you don't have to pay very much. So who are these people then that you get relief from if you want help with your poll tax? Right. You would claim that from your Local Authority. In the same way as housing benefit. You've got housing benefit forms Yeah. Yeah. Okay? Savings. Erm something else that would relate to number of children, adults is also the age. The ages of the people in the house. What, just of the children, or of the adults as well? Well once they're over eighteen age is immaterial. Oh. Right. But erm there, there are a couple of different rates at which er income support is claimed depending on how old the child is. Oh really? Yeah. What about the other er end of the scale? Somebody over sixty five or seventy five or eighty Right. As I understand it there's no no banding at that end. That's strange isn't it? Because there's a lot of erm pensions that are triggered off by the age of the elderly person. Mm. Of course there, there are things, I mean there is the pension. There is also attendance allowance and there are various things like that which are outside this. Mm. Yeah. But they will take into account any special help that is needed for somebody who's disabled. Washing. Extra, extra money for wa if they've got lots of washing to do. So you can get special help if somebody's disabled. Oh you're right. There's a pension as well. Yeah. Yes. Yes. Sorry. That's alright. Right. So. Let's have a look has any , has anyone not seen erm B one? No I haven't. I'm not really Right. Well I've only seen the back of it. I've never looked right through it. So how, how many do we need? All, all You have a look between the two You've been reading B one's all week. Have I? You've been reading B one's for weeks haven't you? Right. Your rate of allowances aren't there because they go out of date so fast so I've got an extra, you can have one of these each with the rate of allowances. Thanks. And there's also you may or may not have the erm form which you claim relief for community charge and housing benefit inside the form. You have to have another one if you're in cou , if you're not in council accommodation from the l which we issue as well. . You get so much stuff from the N C A's who do that. The N C A's who do Right. So can I wipe this side off. Ooh. That's not fair is it? If you're eighteen to twenty four years old and you're bringing up a child on your own. You get the same as twenty five years and older. Right. So if we look at a a typical family. We have wife and husband both over eighteen. Both over eighteen. How much would they get? Sixty two twenty five? That's it. Sixty two pounds twenty five. Okay? Now if they had a child who's four years old, how much would they get? Thirteen thirty five. Thirteen thirty five. For each child. Okay? And then another child who is sixteen. Right. That's right. So. What about if they're fourteen? Nineteen seventy five. Nineteen seventy five. There you go. And in addition to that there is a premium because they are a family. And the premium because they have at least one child is seven pounds ninety nine, ninety five. So ev even if you had six children, you'd still allowed, still only get seven ninety five? That's right. In addition to the Yeah Yeah, yeah. Okay? I doubt if you'd have six children under four would you? You could have I suppose Oh well . Going back to what Jerry said you'd So. You've got a total income coming in, er a total amount of benefit there of a hundred and three pounds thirty for this family. Okay? Now they will also be entitled to child benefit. Okay? So child benefit for two children it's ninety twenty five for the first. Seven twenty five for the second. So that sixteen pounds fifty. What are those rates again? Nine twenty five first, and seven twenty five It's not Ah. Sneaky peaky eh? So the, for the oldest child it's nine pounds twenty five. Sorry it's not on there. No What is it? Ten pounds twenty five? Nine twenty five for the first child. And then seven pounds twenty five for subsequent children. Making sixteen pounds fifty in total. This would then be treated as income by D S S and so this amount would be reduced by sixteen pounds fifty. That's a con innit? Mm. I make that eighty six eighty? Yeah? Mm. Now that's an idea to how they do it. Don't try to counsel somebody and tell them how much income support they're going to get. Because that's very very basic. There are lots and lots of other things the D S S can take into account. Leave it to the Citizen's Advice Bureau. Yeah. Leave it to the Citizen's Advice Bureau or the D S S. I feel sorry for the D S S cos the Citizen's Advice Bureau to make sure that the people get all they're entitled to Mm The Citizen's Advice Bureau has got a pro forma which if a person goes in and says I think I ought to be getting, I think I, I don't think I'm getting sufficient income support or I'm going to apply for income support. What should I get? And they go through and tell them what they should get. Mm? Which I would find very trying if I was in the D S S quite honestly. Yeah. Right. Now so having issued B one, where's it got to go? The D S S. Right. So it goes to the D S S. Which one? The one nearest . The one in the area which in they live. So it it's not specifically related to the benefit office where they're signing. It's based on where they live. And so you might find that some offices have to think of two or three D S S offices and refer various people to the, to various ones. Depending on where they live. Okay? Now when you had that bundle of handouts that are all stapled together There was a list of the D S S offices together with guidance on their address. Now if I can check that you've all got that. I you haven't, I've got a list here that I can let you have. It looks like that. and then if you come across it later. I was just wondering that. Or is it it is in fact North Radstock isn't it? . The actual town is North Radstock. Okay. Any question so far? Okay? Right so when do you issue a B one? At fresh claims. Change of circumstances. Fresh claims. Fresh claims. Er what do you mean by change of circumstances? If they change their address or something or they live with somebody else or they move out from somewhere Yeah. Erm change of let's say person's circumstances. It might be limiting with a change of address it might not. Yeah? Any Also when they run out of U B. When they run out of U B. Yes. Any other times when you might issue one? Erm situation where you have somebody who has left their job. Wasn't clear at the time what the circumstances were. You may find when you have the reply back from the employer that you have to suspend unemployment benefit. In that instance you could issue a B one so that he would have some money coming in. So if unemployment benefit is suspended and erm another circumstance which might arise is somebody expects to receive unemployment benefit and then finds that they're not entitled to it. Because of contribution problems. If in doubt Yes. always give a B one in my opinion. Yes. That's right. They may the only thing is they may not wish to take one. You don't have to, you don't have to claim. And they may say no no I don't want to claim. In which case that's fair enough. But at some future time they may decide they want to. If a person refuses U B. They should take you should issue them with a leaflet Sorry? Refuses U B? Issues refuses I S Mhm You should issue them with the basic leaflet telling them about I S. Mhm. So that they're aware of what they've refused. That's a very good er very good precaution to take, yes. Very good idea. I don't normally. But you can do . Well yes you can but if anyone refuses U B er I S rather I always give them a leaflet. so that you are sure I'm not conning you. So before we issue before we hand over the B one what do we do? Fill in the back. We fill in the back. Yes? .We'll be giving you some exercises later about filling in the back. Erm Who would do this then. I mean it wouldn't just be anyone could do this, fill out the back it doesn't have to be an E O does it? No, no it doesn't have to be an E O. Right. Erm the only thing is what does happen occasionally is somebody comes from the D S S offices and they've been told, I need a B one. What they haven't been told is that you actually have to make a claim for benefit. And have to sign on every fortnight. every day . It happens every day. Every day. And yes. And, and so then they, they're a bit miffed that instead of the B one they're being asked to complete a U B four six one, a U B six seven one. They then have to come to an appointment and be interviewed. Whereas in actual fact I don't want all this, I want is a B one. But they have to make a claim before you can issue a B one. And the D S S can't issue B ones unless they've gone through all the procedure. That's right. In fact D S S don't issue B ones. We, we have to issue B ones. Because they have new people on the counter and it's it's Good question. It happens every single day . Go down and get a B one How long does it take for income support to come through? Once a claim has been made. According to the managers five and a half days in this area. How long is a piece of string? Five and a half days? They can get it immediately. get it immediately That's what I was quoted last week. Right. When I asked the self-same question. He said five and a half days. He hasn't . The last time I, I would I would have thought it could have, could take, it could easily take ten days. Yeah Two weeks. Two weeks. When they had problems not so long ago it was taking a month. Yeah. I heard it was six weeks. A month, six weeks. Well they have targets like we all have and one of their targets is how quickly they can turn around the claimant's money. Mm. What does a claimant do then they've got no money then for six weeks if it takes six weeks. Come and bang on our door for six weeks. They get, I think they can Yeah They can get a crisis loan. They don't, they can also get paid early direct by the D S S. D S S will actually pay them rather than telling us to pay them. But is it up to them to actually go to D S S and say I want a payment now? That's right. So if you get someone in that situation who's saying I'm desperate for money, I'm claiming income support, I've heard nothing and you haven't been told how much they're entitled to. Then they can actually go to the D S S office and say that they need some money urgently and D S S may make a payment. But may but not nec May May not. Yeah. It depends on the circumstances and you're not, you're not in a position to say what D S S will or won't do. So you can only say they may make a payment. under er I think they would do under most circumstances. It would only be if they suspected that something odd was going on. Okay and how do D S S tell us how much to pay income support? B two. Yep. B two. Right. Before I ask you to complete B one there's one more thing we need to talk about. And that is about what happens when someone leaves a job of their own accord. So what happens when someone leaves a job of their own accord, what happens to their unemployment benefit. Suspended. Suspended pending enquiries. Yeah. But not, it's suspended, it's suspended but it's not disallowed. That's right. So what, what's the difference? Well it's suspended pending enquiries so it's in suspension. They, we're looking into the reasons. And if erm they don't like the outcome of our deliberations they have a right of appeal. Right. But when, when the adjudication officer has made a decision he will then allow or disallow. So that that's the so at first the claim is suspended. And then when you have a decision from the adjudication officer it is then allowed or disallowed. And then they can appeal. And then they can appeal. If they wish. Yeah. It used to be six months didn't it, and now it's gone up to That's right, yes. Big jump isn't it? Well. It went up in stages. Oh did it? It went to thirteen weeks and then it went to twenty six weeks. Did it? Yeah. As a deterrent. Which it never has had any effect on at all. That was the reason behind it. It was a, a deterrent to people giving up their jobs but nobody knew about it. People don't know about it now. So if they immediately fall back on IS, I mean it Yeah that's just what I was going to say. What happens then, to income support? Paid at a reduced rate. It's paid at a reduced rate for the period of the suspension. I thought if it's disqualifying, if you were disqualified then income support pays normal No. Sorry it's, it's, if it's allowed they would have a reason income support to pay. If it's disallowed then erm they would have their entitlement in that they would be paid a reduced rate during the period of the susp , er of the disallowance. And would they still get the income support after that but still at a reduced rate or not? Right. Once we're out of the twenty six week period it would go back to its normal rate. I think we're talking about once the suspension was over Yeah and the adj the A O has made the decision. disallowed Mhm. they'd carry on getting the reduced rate prior to the period of disallowance. That's right yes. They'd still get paid then? Yes, but at a reduced reduced rate. What is the reduced rate. I'm sorry. I'll go on to talk about that . Is there a handout on this because Right. I've got a handout on the reduced rate, yes. And I'm gonna be giving you a handout which gives you information about how to calculate it. I never tell people getting a reduced rate Well no because they just go bananas if you do. You've got to be careful. What, what do we call that reduction, deduction? U D Right. Yep. I don't know if you've heard that term at all around. What does it stand for? The deduction. Yep. oh. Let's try that again. Unemployed deduction. Okay? Details of any reductions that have been made are held in enquiry screen four. The reduction is made on the personal rate available. So in this instance it would be made on half, if, if the husband had left his job of his own accord it would be made on half of that amount. Surely that's for his wife as well so she No No no no. No that's why it would only be it would be made your deduction would be made on half of that amount. Oh I see. No, no. The deduction is based on The deduction isn't half that amount No. it's made on half that amount. It's, yeah. And it is forty percent of that. Made on the So So can you give us on that. Yes. You've got I'm just trying to The man's would be sixteen erm Thirty one thirty one pounds whatever on the twelve. thirty p. Yeah. So it, it's forty percent of thirty two pounds. Yes? Yep. That's right. Reduction then on the personal sorry, can you repeat what you said about the reduction is made, made on the personal Yes. It's made on the amount that that person, that individual is receiving in income support. It's not on the whole family. family should be penalized. Yeah. Just the the individual and that one portion of the income support is reduced by forty percent. So what's forty percent of thirty one pound twenty five. Erm erm Yeah. It's about twelve pounds a week. What happens if you, if you're not on that rate What if you're a single person only getting thirty nine something? Then you doesn't need much does he. But do you get the reduced rate, is it reduced forty percent for all sort of categories whether you're married, single? Yes, yes. I thought there were exceptions if the person was pregnant or something. If there's a pregnant person in the house. Yes. There are exceptions. So that the majority of people will be subject to a forty percent deduction on their personal benefit and their personal rate. Okay? That's irrespective whether they're married or single? That's right. Erm the deduction will only made, be made if a suspension is held on our computer. So if somebody forgets to put the suspension on It's not actually cos it causes real problems . In other words it can take doing that person no good service like if there's any doubt suspending it immediately. They can always get the arrears. And they get very uptight if they get erm too much and then it's reduced rather than the other way round. Mm. Can I ask ? Yeah. queries at the end. No. No that's fine. I'm still a bit confused about erm sorry I should have brought this up at the time. It's alright. Claims suspended for twenty six weeks by our good selves Yes. therefore if they apply for income support Mhm that is also reduced by forty percent. Yeah. Right. What if they're unemployment benefit was disqualified? The adjudication officer, we suspend it, the adjudication officer says right, they're not supposed to have it. What happens to their income support, do they still continue to receive it at a reduced rate? That's right. For the period of the disallowance. And it would then revert back to full rate. And the disallowance can be Up to twenty six weeks. Yeah. thank you. Okay? Right. Erm the some people can actually have a reduction made of twenty percent instead. If, in this family the wife was expecting a baby then then it would be a twenty percent deduction. Also if one or other of the partners, well it would have to be the partner that wasn't signing was seriously ill then the reduct deduction would be twenty percent. Providing there's a condition attached, that they have savings of less than two hundred pounds. What if the claimant should become seriously ill? sick. Sick Do they get a reduced rate on the sickness benefit? No No They get more on sickness benefit than they do on And another thing if you're living with somebody and, and you're both unemployed. If the person that's got the sack doesn't make the claim but the other person claims then it doesn't affect them either. If you see what I mean. Oh I see so er you're assuming then that the person that was claiming isn't working? Wasn't, wasn't. Isn't working but hasn't had the sack. Perhaps they've been made redundant. Perhaps their partner's had the sack. If the person that has had, been made redundant to make the claim, can claim for the other person and there's no red dependent, yeah. Yeah so there's no reduction on that. suspension for three hundred and twelve days. very often find knowing that they've left voluntarily to have babies and have decided not to go back to the job although the job's been kept open for them. They're disallowed for six months and then coming and Right. I hope this doesn't cause you a problem, but the rates of benefit have changed very slightly since the first of October ninety one. And the handout I've got here which I couldn't tie in just now when I was trying to do the deduction is because the rates are very slightly different. It's about thirty pence or so more. Than actually what we were talking about. So I'm sorry about that. I'll get the other one updated. Erm but what you've got now if you, can I pass those round and I'll explain what that says. Is this one the same as we've got in that erm wad again? Oh you had one in the wad did you? Yes I had one, yeah else did but I In the one that we shouldn't have had which we did have. Oh it's been a good week. Right. If you'd have a look at that. The appendix age twenty the category which you can see there, nought to four. That tells you the amount of income support which the deduc er for which the deduction is appropriate. Hang on a minute. Are we looking at No, we're looking at page two, yeah. Right. I've got April ninety one here. Right some are April, some of October and they're all mixed up. I'm April Wonderful. I'm October. Okay, October you want, you want, anyone else need October Yes please And if you please destroy the other one. Yeah, that's the latest one. Right Okay have a look at that. The B U category nought to four. That shows the amount of weekly rate to which the can be applied. So that shows how much we're gonna apply our deduction to. Okay? And we can see the rates for which the deduction is going to be applied the other side. So erm a single under eighteen or couple both under eighteen twenty three pound ninety. That re , that should relate to the allowances you had before. And that's so that's twelve fifty five if it's So if a forty percent deduction is made on category two, then somebody receiving thirty one pounds forty a week would actually, it would actually be reduced by twelve pounds fifty five. Do you see how that works? Mm. No sorry. I've lose where that twelve fifty five comes from. Right. If you look at category two. What here? Yeah. Yeah right. They're in receipt of thirty one pounds forty? Yeah. So if you look at category two down below. Forty percent deduction applied for a full week. Twelve pound fifty five. Oh right, twelve fifty five yeah. Mhm. Yeah okay. Okay? So the B U category shows the amount of income support that er is being, that the deduction is being based on. And then the B U indicator indicates whether it's rate one or rate two and indicates whether it's a twenty percent or forty percent deduction. Now right at the beginning of a claim you can have an odd number of days before the first benefit week ending day. There will also be an indicator on the B two to say how those days should be treated. There will be a number which will be the number, should be the number of days before the benefit week ending day in the first week of the claim. Right. Any questions on that? Well only one and that is Mhm? you've given us this information. Right. But don't tell them what they're likely to receive. Yes. So the information that is given us is for our information only, or? Right. You can go so far as to say that I mean, you will be safe in saying that if your, that as your benefit is suspended your income support for you, not for your family but for you, will be reduced. It will probably be reduced by forty percent. .. Yeah? Yeah. But if you, if you look at a B two it makes sense, I mean I've looked at B two's and I haven't really understood what the one's two's and three's are for but now it makes sense to me so people who are B two makes more sense to them to know what Yeah. We'll be having a look at some B two's and we'll pick up this bit about and er the coding when you have a look at that. It's knowing how much information you can supply and how much you keep out isn't it? Yes. Yes that's right. You know. Cos what we give to the client Okay? Right. So I've now got a handout for you and it'll be up to date about how to complete a B one. Yeah, anybody else want to stretch their legs a second? No, Okay? handouts. Some of them are quite hard to read. Yes this, this one, this new one ought to get it retyped. It's quite an important one really. Mm, yeah. I'm using it all the time. I've got better copies of the blank B one, but the handout is getting rather Right so if we're looking at, we'll complete the B one. Note the reverse of the U B A T B that we're issuing and pass it to the client with an envelope to send to the right D S S office. Sorry which is the A T B? I can't remember, is it? That's, that's the one er the shopping list. Oh the shopping list, yeah. I hate to tell you the D S S are on an economy campaign and they no longer issue envelopes. They no longer issue envelopes. At least they don't in Bath and you have to write the address on the front. Oh they don't They don't do here either. And then if it's in another area which invariably is if you've got to give them somewhere like Trowbridge or sometimes erm in Bath or Chippenham You then have to ring up D S S to find the address. Well hopefully all this will give you the address although it depends how far away it is. contact D S S to get the address. Actually it's stupid that business about the envelopes. Mm. quite sure which one. It's slightly higher than the other. Well it just sort of right. It's just like that. No it's not, no it's not. Tiny little bit. Yeah. I I think mine are more out than yours actually. Yeah cos Yeah. But mine are, I think mine are more out than yours but they're not level. And that's those dimples are the bottom are on the bottom bit of your spine so if the dimples aren't level it means that bit of your back is slightly Yeah and you gotta have something wrong with your back. No. you get that, can't you? No. Did I have that when I was ? That doesn't matter. Daddy's legs needn't be the same length. Men's legs needn't be the same length. In fact very few people's legs are exactly the same length. Hello hello hello hello hello hello hello hello hello hello. Mummy touch me on my arm and keep going on I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm dreaming of a white white white white white white white white white white . They do that don't they? Yeah. White white white white white white white white white white white white white Christmas just like the ones we used to know know know know where the treetops glisten glisten You record over that now! What's it Ben? Right . Ben. Eh eh eh. What is it Ben? Ben. Get him to lick the microphone. That'll make a hell of a noise. Schlurp Slurp. Oh stupid dog. Ben. Ben. Right then give me that microphone, give me that microphone. No no no. No no no. I'm dreaming of . Sounds more like Des O'Connor. Ben, Ben go and talk to Daddy. Talk to daddy. What's this what's this what's this. What is it Ben? Is that right? Is that nice, is it nice? Is that nice You can't wear him out can you? No but you can keep trying. Come on Ben. Grr. You wouldn't think he was being nice, would you? No. He looks like a Ow! I can change hands he can't Do it faster, do it faster dad! he can't change mouth. Dad change it faster and go faster and faster and faster. Ah! Have you hurt your mouth? Did you bite your lip? Oh yuk. Ben Ben. he's got his back legs bu. Whee! Smurf! Whee what? I'm a Smurf. You're a Smurf? bum in the air. Come on, bed! You should be going to bed now. No don't wanna go to bed. Come on. Come on, bed! Don't swear at me my dear. I'm not swearing at you. I just pointed upwards. To go up the stairs. Dad your tape's stopped. No it hasn't. But you are gonna go to bed now. It hasn't? Oh. No. It hasn't. Go on. Come along. We'll be up in a minute. Brush your teeth. I've already done that. I'm coming I'm coming ooh parents! Kids! Parents! Okay. You'd better take her lamp upstairs out of the way as well because that's, remember that's a present. It's gotta be wrapped up. It's got to be wrapped up. Yeah. I know she's picked it out but I ordered a skirt this morning as well. Right. A navy blue pleated one. Mhm. So you want it'll probably come as black and white spotted Yeah. in a different style but Yeah Well, we tried. Why is it lately that I go to, before I start my my work Mhm? I feel absolutely done in. You know I've worked so much at home Mm. that I feel so tired. So I think this is half the reason why I'm not that . Mm. Because by the time I get to work Mm. Yeah. You know? You get there and there's, there's not that much pressure so you tend to sort of think ah. And you go at the speed that it warrants. Mm. If there's a lot to do you go quicker and if there's not you go slower. Mm. One of the gir er one of the women on the course is er she's, she said is the introduction course on, week after next st Introduction? starting on the Monday? I said starting on the Monday? Do you mean the one that starts on the Tuesday? Oh that's it she said it's Tuesday to Friday. I said yes it's on, I'm running it. What did she say? She said, oh good! Ooh. Which is nice. But then she couldn't very well say, oh no, could she? No. Oh what you again! Gotta put up with you for another four days . Yeah. No I er I've got some bits to give back to Julie, there's those tapes and I don't want to listen to it, you know? Mm. And that book upstairs. I don't want to read it, I'm not interested. No. But what can you say to her? Say, mm yeah. Yeah but then she'll start asking me things about it and I won't know. Ah. I'll just say, look Julie I haven't had time to read it No. so you might as well have it all back. And don't give it to me again. Only she will say well hang on to it till you've listened to it. I'm in no hurry. That's the problem. Yeah. And Well fine. In that case I'll hang on to it but I really think she ought to, actually I'll I'll take round there when I'm home. Either that or Wrap it up and drop it through the letter box. No! No you can wait until you can see her going out with wait until the car's not there if you know what car she's driving these days. Oh dear. And then you drop it in on Iris when she's looking after Well Iris is there Wednesdays and Fridays. Mum , Alright . So you can drop it in on a Wednesday drop it in On Iris. On Iris and say I haven't seen Julie actually about the kid's Christmas presents. And not getting stuff for each other so I hope she hasn't been out and done it all. Mm. Ooh That programme's on in about five minutes about food? Oh yeah. And we've got quite a bit well either that or we could watch the programme and then wash up, clear up and go to bed. Couldn't we? I haven't had time to do any shopping today or anything. So we we'll have a cup of tea in a minute. We'll ge , see Christine in bed. Have a cup of tea and watch that programme. Yeah? Okay. Erm Right, in that case let's go and say goodnight to Christine. Hello Hello wiring for the tape? Yeah. When have you got to give that back? Tomorrow. Tomorrow yeah. The lady's coming for it Is there anything you want at the supermarket?that we might forget when we're there. Erm I could do with some new trout Ben yeah you! What are you doing with that biscuit. Jack see what their erm see if they've got any mar mar er marzipan. Marzipan? Yeah, please see if they've got any but if they haven't How much do you want if they've got some? Well . Shall I take an e no I'll just take another tape along. Well I should take an extra one the more you can get the better that's what it's all about isn't it? Yeah cos er by the time we got to er Mum's last time I didn't have any left did I? No. I'm gonna give you my wallet. Sorry I was sat there writing out a shopping list and I suddenly thought oh ten past seven oh ten past seven! Should have been gone by now whe great thanks ever so much there you go. Do you leave this door open? Yeah. and I fumbling for my key. You were fumbling were you? Yep fumbling for my key. Fumble, fumble, fumble. It amazes me how early they are people are putting up their Christmas decorations. It's only three weeks, innit? Yeah but no I mean Caroline down there have had lights up for about six weeks. Oh good god a bit too early. Erm I mean most people in your flat it's still three weeks away we tend to put ours up about a week early, just over a week before Christmas. That we do. No it gets a bit ridiculous when it's a week before and then until January the sixth. Yeah. That's what we tend to do isn't it? Mhm It always looks like that, I wish they'd stop going on about Christmas for heaven's sake,. I I'm trying not to think about way I feel on Christmas morning cos her birthday because of Christmas Oh I see. she gets so this is your Christmas present and your birthday present And that's all wrong. all in one and I think that's horrible Did you see that car They got a bi they got tinsel around the aerial Just put yeah tinsel wound around Oh no. the aerial and he's trailing some in the back window as well. Ha ha. How stupid can people get! Well you sa I don't know that. you say that but if we had a cigarette lighter in in this car, a socket an electrical socket I'd You'd have a little tree with flashing lights. No. Looks like you can't get out. Oh look at that one they got arrows an they got two arrows facing one another. Yeah Rightio Jackie I'll see you all tomorrow night. Okay then. Bye. Bye. Cheerio Christine. Okay? Yeah I'm alright ah. Chilly isn't it? . Oh it's pedestrians I can read the sign from back there. Mm. it looks. I suppose. no there's already a pavement there. I don't know. Mm. better pavement? Possibly. Widening the road? Maybe or putting in erm that cable cos they've dug a trench around it. Yeah. Putting a barbed wire fence round the stop the I don't know . Yeah. Can you turn it up again Daddy? I still can't here it. Well I can and I don't wanna be deafened by it. This man's up here selling his Christmas trees again, he's a real menace this chap. Mhm. No it gets blocked though doesn't it? Yeah it's on a weekend when everybody comes out here to buy their trees and they're parking they're cars on the roundabout Yeah. mm it gets a bit much though. I'm glad we don't go for that sort of tree actually. No I was looking at trees in er B and Q Yeah. I'm not suggesting anything don't say it in that tone of voice! It's alright no I didn't mean t . and they had do you know how much er a really nice sort of six foot seven foot tree is? No. An artificial one from B and Q seventy nine pounds was a seven foot one Good grief! sixty nine pounds was a six foot one. Oh. Mind they were lovely trees Mm. they were sort of blue spruce type, do you know what I mean? Yeah but But you think ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. Good grief! I know what I'm gonna do for practical . Oh Christine! You made me jump then. Yeah so did I . I know exactly what I'm gonna do for practical . What are you gonna do? Exactly! I'm gonna make this little shape of a snowman and then I sew s sequins on it. Oh yes that would be lovely. She showed us one, she had a Christmas tree and she had er star and tha that was the same kind of thing it's sort of Mm. stuffed and then it had sequins sewn and that. Oh that would be nice, Christine. It'll be lovely do that. Sounds really nice. Yes. Mm. But you've got to pay a little of money. Well that doesn't matter. Because It's alright. She said all the fabrics and sequins are fairly expensive. They are. Yeah. So if you wanna take them home you've got to pay a little bit of money Well that's alright we'll That's alright. it's only about twenty twenty, thirty, forty pee something like that. Twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, a pound yeah I know . No the highest she said is about fifty pee. Alright. It's not much and that's And that's e the highest Well that's not high. I wonder what's happening here? Well what's happening here is all the cars are stopped and there all one behind the other sorry I . I'll get my own back on you! Oh. Oh ha. Oh no somebody's in trouble. There's been an h accident. No there's been an accident Christine. That's what it er seems like erm if there's a police car you can bet your life the chances are there's gonna be another one or an ambulance if there's been an accident. Yeah. This cars turned round even to go out the bottom of there's been an accident oh. Mum? Mummy? Just take it out of gear please yeah? There are pe some people are going down erm Shallard's Road. Probably a good idea actually well done if er we get the chance we'll er do the same Mm. go down Shallard's Road and then we can go down er where is it? Oh it's up there where is no that's the police yeah the police cars parked down there So if you went along Shallard's Road and came out of Long Beach we'll miss it Came out of Long Beach Road we'll miss it. Yeah so Or you could go down California Road Well that's what I that's what I mean go down down Shallard's Road here down Yeah from California Road and along Long Beach and along the Long Beach Road or you could carry on along California Road I don't wanna go you past that if it is an accident I don't wanna go past it. If you went on down California Road and went down into Oldland by Christine's school Oh no I'm not going all around that way. then you could come off the roundabout from Kachenend avoiding the strategy. I hope that's not what I think it is. It's probably a road accident Christine. Someone's been knocked down. Did you see? Awful lot of people standing about. Yeah well that's because people are ghoulish some people will stand in the road and stare. Mummy, there was shopping bags and bags and things upset on the floor. Oh. In the road. Might not be it might be equipment out of the ambulance or something you don't know. Mum in each of these groups in erm today I know exactly what they're doing what we did before was cookery this month's sewing and fabric and next month what else is there ahead in projects? Ooh all sorts. What are some of them though Mum? There's sewing, cooking machinery and no no machinery, it could be yes? Don't know Christine. Could be you could have all sorts of things sweetheart We I bet you we'll come out and it'll be right opposite us instead of missing it do you know what I mean still it was further up the road than the junction but the bus didn't seem to be having any trouble. No. There's no queue of traffic along here so far it seems to be coming through fairly er well. No there's not hold up up there. I can't see properly yet. Well what I saw was some tail lights going along the road. How could you have seen it from here? Back there you couldn't see the road up there. Aha. Well you didn't see it from back there Well there's an ambulance. Yeah somebody's hurt. It's impossible to maybe maybe somebody Ah. knocked down Christine. Yeah. Happy Christmas. Yeah that's what I was thinking it's funny it's sort of Christmas makes everything better or worse. Yeah. Bad things for a bad thing to happen over Christmas, it's worse. And if a nice thing happens happens it's te ten times better. it it's better it's makes every thing more intense somehow. Mum my technology teacher said she erm every year she Christmas decoration. I think everybody does Christine does, we always Yeah. do. Do we? Yep don't we? Yep but I haven't Oh my I haven't succumbed yet this year have I? ha ha. Or have we did we buy something when we were going round er No no we haven't bought anything yet. Erm there's something up at Matchland I'd like though we haven't succumbed to our set of lights yet actually. No well that will be our that will be our Christmas trimmings that we bought this year. I always cringe when I see a lorry like that coming on the road when you can't see past it yeah. cos you think well if I can't see any of the cars behind it then they can't see me either. No. I always sort of tend to ease off a bit. I'm afraid that's why I get paranoid Christine and say Yeah. be careful of the roads because a car can't erm can't always stop in time it's up to you not to walk out in front of them cos they can say oh well you should be able to stop in time but in practice if you drove to be able to stop in time if somebody stepped out in front of you you'd never above about five miles an hour you know?you must sort of stick to the speed limits I don't believe it we got gaining on the car in front. Still he's a learner again. If it's a learner he's breaking the law. Yes he is ha ha he's breaking the law anyway. I know. Yeah cos he should have his L plate And he's not on his . that's right. We'll have to apologise say there was a an accident. Yeah. It is true. Yeah it didn't hold us up but there was an accident. It did hold us up I mean we would have been down there a lot quicker if we hadn't had to Yeah. five minutes. What? It's alright. What? I would have slowed down a lot more than that . Well you're learning to drive, I'm not . Yeah that's right no reflection on you it's just that I'm thinking oh I ca I just can't see the time when I would ever drive through a gap like that that confidently that's all. My foot went on the But it'll come. accelerator. Ah yeah you eased off that's all. That Only I would have probably braked, changed down ended up in second and crept past it on the inside and then speeded up again. I don't perhaps not that bad but I would have definitely braked and not just eased off on the accelerator. You'll have to give these brakes a bit more welly Mm. they are er in need of a A service. Oh Neil's complaining it's started oh I haven't got enough money. Ah. He's just moved into a new house you know Yeah. about a fortnight, three weeks ago Mm modification to lifestyle Yeah. needed. And his girlfriend got the sack from her job not too long ago. Oh no. So she does she's a florist flowers Yeah. so she does a lot of flower arrangements and that privately Mhm. but as she said you if you make twenty arrangements and you sell half of them you just about break even with the flowers you've bought to do them. Yeah. You know? Yeah. Leadless plumber not legless,legl leadless oh You know I'm sure that the this roof rack I'm sure you can feel the difference in the car sometimes well not feel the difference but you can hear it, it makes an awful noise at times when the winds blowing. Mm. You know? Yeah. You think urgh! I hate driving round this with the rack on I absolutely hate it if it's windy it's awful . Mm. It sounds like fire engines going off above your head. Oh Brian annoyed me on my lesson I pulled up to the Kingsway right? And I was wanting to turn left Yeah. going along the Kingsway coming back from the driv the driving test centre Oh I know. yeah? Yeah. And there's a filter light and he said oh you'll be waiting here ages put it in neutral just as . just as I did it the bloody filter light came on Yeah he's silly and you oh I don't know why he makes you do that I mean it's if that was something the I mean all Tony used to ever say when we were at traffic lights were if you want to you can put the handbrake on at this set of traffic lights if they were downhill Mhm. because erm there will be oh what was I it's alright I was concentrating said you can put the handbrake on these set of traffic lights if you like because you might be sat here a while and your foot will ache you know? Good grief wha I always have to put the handbrake on at traffic lights. No he says it's a Tony used to say to me it's entirely up to you hi traffic lights coming up hill yes but down hill no it's you needn't you can sit there wi ready with the foot brake. Mm yeah Brian's argument to that is that er if you've got if you were hit in the back Yeah. you would tend to raise your foot off the brake sort of jump and take your foot off the brake and you'd go forward and hit the car in front. Well the handbrake is only a parking brake the handbrake only o operates on two wheels in any case Mm. not four so the handbr I mean the fact that you can drive with the handbrake on yeah. if you're insistent about it you know? yeah. Erm tells you a lot it wouldn't erm if somebody hit you in the back you'd still move if you had the handbrake on. Yeah. In fact probably you'd move more cos he says yo your instinct is take your feet off I think your instinct would be to jump on it all the harder. Mm. Cos the instinct would be to stop the car from moving. Mm. If you see what I mean. Yeah. No then I might be wrong I don't know but all this putting the car in neutral goodness knows what! It only makes you slower away. It does it just makes you slower getting away Mm. and one of the things is that's important is hesitancy Mm. or la and lack of it . But ha I remember I was on my test and I pulled round er it was very, very busy and there were two rows of cars and I pulled up and I thought right there's a gap down there and I want to go straight on and all these others were turning le turning right so I squeezed down through the gap and then I thought right I'm gonna be here a little while shall I put it in neutral, blow no I won't. So gi given the unless somebody's out unless you're if he'd actually tells me to do it I will say I was sort of oh alright and do it. Yeah. Yeah but mm. No he he makes you do an awful lot of things that are really unnecessary. Mm. Well I mean I passed my test an I weren't made to do any of that. No. I would have thought how stupid it was if I'd been made do it. Mm. That's why I think I've said to you on occasions oh you know Mm. what are you doing that for sort of thing. Yeah. I bet your Mum's thinking we're not coming. . Can Grandma sit at the back with me? No I'll sit at the back. Well no let her sit at the front now Christine don't be No. mean. Hello. Yep. I know Daddy. Right thanks. have to do it over there thank you. So every everything was held right up so what we did was we was we cut back off we're coming along the main road cut back off and went all down Halbury New Road and along Beach Road and around that way. Oh yeah it's a long way round isn't it? Yeah but there was an accident so everybody stopped Ah. so. What colour desk did you have? A pine one thanks Did you? for buying it so Mm. in the road. It's go it's got shelves on then? Ah I know no. . Oh it's a different one? It's got . . like Mhm. the top a bit cut out there and it's got about three draws Yeah. but we found out the measurements for it to go so Oh. Go in her room. in the bedroom. so we got Ah. a gap text books Where's your Yeah Mm goes in the bedroom. so what we . her chest of drawers and her desk just won't go. Oh right. So what we've gotta do And we can't turn it round anyway we tried all ways Yeah. and it just doesn't fit. so what we've gotta do is we gotta buy her desk and we've gotta buy her a little chest of drawers so that she can use So if you know anybody that wants plain set chest of drawers for it. we have another pair. They can have it. Ha. Er this course is going well. Good yeah. Yeah good group and er I take Interested? Yeah they're interested actually and they're quite quick as well. Good. You alright? Yeah I've had to re-thread their damn machine for them they didn't have it threaded up right. Oh. Oh dear hopeless aren't I? No. No on when it came down the bag missed the hanger instead of one bit going each side of the hanger so that the clothes were inside Mm. it wasn't it was all at the front you couldn't do it anyway Ah. and when I looked they didn't have it threaded up right at the top at all I had to re-thread the machine. Ha Okay? Oh shall I er getting to the end now? Yeah. Daddy can I have can I have an apple? Yeah. One of those erm crispy ones what are they called? I don't know you tell me What Erm colour are they? They're green. Oh right I know They're green but they're sort of really, really juicy and crunchy. I know. You know? Granny Smiths. Christine has said can she take an apple to school with her packed lunch Why is it I . So if I got those That ones not a bruised one is it? Is it? Alright. Is that all that I've done? Erm can you get me ? Yeah. . Alright? You've got . I will have these . okay? Do you want a few red apples as well. Mm yeah. I'll get a bag. I want those. Well you can a bag or oh I'll get a bag. It's alright I'll get one Okay? Yeah they've put wax on these I don't know something. I I don't know dust them up with a a cloth and a bit of Pledge I expect. There you are. That's alright that's plenty garden. Yeah . Go round here? Yeah, yeah and down there. You know where everything is. Do I I don't know! Tried the entrance? Go out, out there. You can't go out there the doors are in the wrong way. I won't be a moment. Do you think they're er taking their money alright Tony? I know they are. Oh. Cos I did erm I was thinking we're going through this fairly quickly are they really taking it in so I s we stopped after I re reached a certain point and I spent the next sort of half an hour or so just asking them questions and some of the things they got right, some they got wrong so I went back over them until we got it right so sort of help to confirm things. Like that . What this? Mm. Mm. Lovely! I'd think it was comfortable to wear. I don't know what it's like mm. Cosy. Yeah sort of warm. Mm. These rugby shirts are they're very expensive it's amazing there's no way really that they should be overall I suppose it it's cos it's a bit of a cross between a sweatshirt and er but still eighte eighteen pound. that. Eighteen pound for a shirt and the they're lovely these I do like them but ooh So do I are they not very warm? They're not as warm as a sweatshirt. No are any the same You you're just paying for it being a rugby shirt really Mm. aren't you? Yeah. Because it's fashionable. Mm. Well not Christine I said we'd meet her by the baked beans so It was I don't know where they are! Mm. Mm right I I wanted cereal. Oh right Yeah. By the nappies Yes. I told her she had to do a we haven't been there. Well I'll get it. Look she didn't show us. Mother! I wanna what I'll do is I'll She showed us the map on the last day before it due in eight o'clock It's go due in tomorrow Yeah eight o'clock Wednesday night she showed it us the map. Haven't you've gotta be joking! I I'm not thinking . And she'd forgotten to give it to you. I'm not because I'm not. I heard Brad having a conversation again today about Ooh I don't feel ye I heard him saying why don't we feel very happy about this and not and not happy with the subjects and I don't feel very happy about running the session so go up this way he's never done the work you see so he's trying to learn it from i instructions and things and a lot of the time you need to have actually done it to be able to talk about it Yeah from experience. So it's not his his fault but a lot of the training that we have to deliver is to do with procedures that he hadn't dealt with whereas a lot of the procedures are things that I'm familiar with there's only some the job centre stuff It takes an awful lot of the different kind of practical experience. Yeah. Text books don't teach you everything. No and I've got the erm I haven't got any experience in job centre work No. but the job centre work isn't as complicated . No we had er the marriage certificate and that back. Oh good. Yeah so it must have been alright cos there was no letter it just said with the compliments and just take it to Right right. two things back so So you have to assume everything's okay Yeah because they haven't told you. They didn't so. Good fine this is the way we operate. There's less in the jars than in the tins or although the Yeah tins look look smaller. Yeah yeah that's a cold Yeah. Frosty you li you like these chips don't you and there's more in it so that's a mild one. If that's alright? Yeah it is they're with Mm the other ones. That's the other one. Yeah. I'll have to get another marzipan another time I'm not No. thank you for letting me get that top though I don't know It's alright if it'll fit I might end up bringing it back yet. Okay. But I've ordered a navy blue skirt and I'm praying it comes and if it comes it fits. Yeah. A navy blue skirt, that white top and that nice jumper that I bought in here, cardigan will look really nice when I go out with Mr and Yeah David and Paula and you know? Okay. I mean they're paying for us to go for a meal you can't go dressed like No I know sorry? Did you have white wine, one litre. No, just one. Just one How are you doing alright? Okay. And Robin? Yeah . Mum? Yeah. Did you want some Coke for Dad? No my love, thank you. Ah right okay. You get a storage jar with that one as well so I could keep filling it up fr from Yeah. wherever. As opposed to And it's quite cheap as well one sixty nine using the normal one eighty nine. Mm. It's still a hundred gram jar as the same as that. Mm okay. okay bung it in Gungadin Do we need any more cereal? I'll tell you what Dad likes chocolate raisins so if Mhm. we get Mum the toffees and Dad some of these. Yeah. Christine's . Mhm. Do you need any more cereal remember Christine . Erm right I better have one then really Yes Christine tends to eat several bowls a night sometimes doesn't she? Yeah I know she sometimes has two bowls. When the mood takes her. Yeah. And tha that's growing up it's very good for her. Mm? It's very nice cos it's very good for her. Yes. You can't see a thing round that corner can you? No. It's the same coming up hill from round there, it's terrible that road. Yeah. Can't see anything coming over the horizon cos it's almost on top of you. Yes no I think once I turned round in that way and I wouldn't Mm. do it again. Oh you turned in did you? Yeah Well I think for safety's sake Yep I think you just might it's get in there. Mhm. Yep that will just get in behind the If that van was over the other side it would be much better. Yeah, I'm gonna go back just a little way Mhm. Yep. cos I'm bum stuck out. I hope it's light when I do my test I've just gotta do a back got black sort of snow white and I'm gonna do . Yeah. It's gonna do . Okay? Yeah it's best to copy a book. I can't find a anywhere What do you think I should do, it's at the moment. Oh I haven't put the lock on. That'll be good. Quite a long walk if you're coming over there. Oh yeah gosh! Ooh there go and stand in the cold. No way, I'm standing in a nice and warm place I don't think I should be copying a tree anyway a trees a tree. A trees a tree, a cherry tree. On Christmas day Grandma comes round our house doesn't she and on Boxing day we go over hers. Erm What? I don't know. I don't know what we're I don't know what we what the pl Somebody out the back, ha. I thought I heard somebody . Hello Grandma. Hello. A little birdie. Hello Windy. Oh Windy we just Watch out! Aha. Oh Grandfather don't make Windy jump over me. Ah oh he's lovely. Hey get in there! Hello Windy. Ah. all. Hello yes fine thanks, and you? Yes, I'm very well. Her paws, oh they're lovely Ah good boy How's your foot? Oh perfect now Oh good Yes, it's lovely now. Good. Ah. Ooh. No that's beautiful. Can you put that in your handbag. I said what a difference. Yeah. Hello. What a difference! How are you? I said what a difference, Dad. Hello, hello, hello. Hello hello Hello Ah she's aren't you? Yeah,we beautiful. ! Ah violent Don't do that! Oh. Ben doesn't, Ben likes her. Yeah. half a pound of grapes really frightened last week wasn't he? Yeah I will not be Oh that's the little microphone from the Oh yeah. thing I'm doing. Yeah. From the er what? From the st survey I'm doing about spoken English. Oh yeah aha. Yeah I've recording things an now again er it's all done anonymously, they're coming I've done quite well actually I'm on tape number eleven I've rec recorded eleven tapes now of Yeah. various bits and pieces and er they're coming back tomorrow night to collect it all it's been quite interesting. . Hello Windy . Mm. Put the rest like that Put all this and he'll need somebody to throw his bone, doesn't he? Yeah . What a difference though. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. And you. Can you stay there? yeah you're just as beautiful. Yeah. You see an amazing difference in him though, he's much more outgoing. Yeah we might Oh, oh look, look, look. He had his one paw up on her knee. I thought he was going to jump up and oh golly. Oh you've got a Look, look he's got his foot in the handle. You're tripping over her bum yeah. Dad would have another dog just like that. Yeah. We would but Mum Mum said no. no. Excuse me please? What are you sniffing about for eh? I've got her bone. Lots of smells. It's not as cheap and there's you . bone A little won't hurt. Oh. In fact don't need that dear. Well thanks Mum. Yeah I know it's had food in it, but it's empty see empty. Do you like flo He don't shake like he was. No. No. I'm not shaking. Well the difference in him in four days it's not bad really is it? Oh no. Eh what did I tell you! I said No! He's getting cheeky. He's getting cheeky. No! I don't understand that word. Oi , oiA_011207.tmp, oi, off. Will by the time I've finished with him . Yeah. I seem saying it all the time. Hello , hello, hello yeah you I reckon that's what it is Eh Look Windy I've gotta here. Yeah we Christine he hasn't seen us lo Yeah. for a while and when he saw us last he was frightened and he's not now Yeah. so he's getting to know you now that's what it is. Yeah. Mm. It is. I remember you from last time, but But I don't remember what you were like. Yeah . Now that's your pep talk. They get on alright like but I'm not edible. Oh Well don't take yes she is. any notice we'll on the other one. Ah. Ah. Are you on Fred's cushion? Are you? . He I reckon he's . Going to sit down? That bag smells of Ben mm. That bags quite old so it'll smell like a lot of things, it'll smell like school friends even Mum? O if you never it's quite a while ago but Oi! I told you to stop it! Oh didn't mean no harm. Go round this side then stands there holding her tummy You can see it can't you . But the truth to tell Sunday morning I went up and come in and Fred had his er cushion and Windy was fallen across it so I think tha Windy's getting his own back now . Mm. Yeah. We didn't do bad at all tonight seeing we were late. No we did quite well. No he's always, Fred,thou you think of him as the policeman don't you that John Thaw. I thought he was the Mm. policeman in there. Oh yeah. He's no trouble when he goes behind there you get and come over to play food don't you? Yes. . Is he quite it course it's something you gotta gotta get used to haven't you really? Cos he he'll get more adventurous . You've gotta say no, very severely several times isn't it sort of just push him away so tell that that's all you can do really. Yeah oh he'll get the message eventually Mm it's a take a long time but I mean I know it says got well puppy mess to get over yet. Get over yeah. Mm. I mean Ben now even now he has relapses I mean nine times out of ten you ca he ignores you when you too much Yeah. and it he'll come up and just cuddle into the side of you without side of you and not take any notice. taking any notice erm Mum will give him titbits occasionally and you've gotta work hard then to get him out of the habit of it. Of it yeah. Mum so to be a little bit weird. Mm it all looks a bit weird upside down cos I can't see out of my no that's fine. Mm I'm just I'm just drawing a shadow don't worry I am going to shade it all in and I'm gonna You can have some blow the You can have some branches that curl back down here too Mm. they don't all have to go up. No. They can curl back down here. Yeah. Mm. Cos they won't all go up on a tree. A few gaps maybe just a little bit coming out. Mr Who? Mr All! I've started doing some card for that. Oh. We haven't got very many presents yet have we? We really haven't got into it yet . Mm. I we went out and we got er erm a suit so we were laughing Mm we got off. did it? Yeah. Erm and we got We got about two didn't we? Sorry? We got two two presents? Yeah buy two and that's it. I'm So we've gotta get I've gotta get a few for my girl girlfriends, but I mean just gonna get them a selection box and a chocolate sweets but er Did you go up Sunday to the shops? Erm we washed the car in today, we we didn't actually go shopping, no. No. Yeah we just really thoroughly did the car out but that's all we did we didn't go shopping. You can get a straight twig without anything on it, can't you? Mhm. Or you can have twigs with bits joining on together can't you? They do vary. They go all different ways twigs. Yeah they vary. They'll be like one another ha. Mm and my art's not too good I'm afraid. That's not bad. What's wrong with your art my love? Is it complications or what? Can't draw properly. The way she said my art's not too good . my art . Funny yes really hilarious! Well it sounded like it Christine . Oh dear. that twig joins there. My art!. No look at it I mean that is suppose to be a tree does not resemble a tree at all, you'd think it was a carrot! Let's have a look. Antlers! These they don't they don't join onto the trunk like that. No they go up thick in thick ones and then come out from the Mm. if it was me I'd draw a thick trunk and lots of lines come out from it . Mm. You don't I mean you don't see a tree with a flat top with all the branches coming out do you? Mm well I can't think of any other way to draw it though. They come out it in thick ones and then the thick ones are on the thin ones are on the thick ones. Have you got an old piece of paper? I'm terrible let me rub out the entire thing and start all over again, yeah? Yeah it's the best thing, I find. Here I go. And you branches start off what are you going to do? And rub out. All of that. Yes, that's right. It'll be a mess No. Christine. No get, let start off yep on erm show you What I've just rubbed it all out. on a bit of paper. Yep I need a separate bit of paper. Daddy I have in my bag can you get that out? A little spotted bag. I can't find a bit that Give me the pencil and let me show you. I'll get you'll have to go just go right to the back just at the back otherwise you're gonna be flipping through millions of pages. Okay. Can I do it on there? Yes yes okay. Look you start off and you've got your trunk okay? Yeah. What haven't you got you got two or three perhaps two big ones Can you turn that up. coming off at the trunk see like that Mm. and you Oh I see what you mean now. another one like that and then what happens is you've got smaller branches lots of smaller branches coming off of piece Yeah and then it joins up together doesn't it? and then you've got smaller branches coming off of the smaller branches Mm. and it makes twigs. Yeah. So you've got an this this branch will keep going perhaps until it gets really tiny. It's incredible cos all the little bits join together I mean what's that? No they don't they cross over and they tangle up but once a branch starts off it doesn't join on to another one. I didn't mean that I meant when you look at a tree it's sort of got A cris-cross. yeah sometimes you get a tree like with a little bit coming off the side Mm. and then it's sort of joined together onto another branch and then there's a branch there. No I don' know what you mean. Er it's hard to explain I can't explain that. As Daddy says once they come out they don't join onto another. You see that one would sort of Mhm. carry on going and that one would go up behind it. Look Christine if I draw it Yeah. as a diagram rather than as a tree. Right you've got one branch Yeah. you start off with one branch like that Mm. now that branch will divide into to two or you'll get one one bit coming off the side you might get another one up here Mm. right? So they're going to go see then you get other branches coming off of that one Mm. the same and other branches coming off of that one and other branches coming off of that one it's sort of gets smaller and smaller and is gets Mm. so you you've got perhaps two off of there and then another one off of the side of there and as you go it gets it gets sl slightly smaller each time see what I mean? Yes and it comes to just to to the to the light one then you stop don't you? Yeah that's right see see what I mean? Yeah. It ge it you just sort of keep going until it stops Right I'll clean that up and start again this is brilliant! Mhm. Have you seen that? Yeah. Mum? Nun . She can't find the stereo Oh lovely . Pulling out one by one oh no ooh! The worse thing I've ever done is wax for my legs I did it once mhm I never did it. What happened? Did it work then did it? Yeah it literally it's like sticking a sticking plaster on your legs and pulling it off. and tearing it off urgh! Only it holds onto the hairs so much that it rips them out so that you end up with legs with no hairs on it but ah! It's best done very quickly. My legs have never been hairy. Mine are the only actually they're not as bad as they used to be they need doing now but Daddy's so they're not too bad. No some people it if their hair's dark and it don't matter what length No. of time they don't do it. No mine aren't too bad really it's just that I don't like being having said that I had one . Mum so there's my basic trunk, trunks aren't straight aren't they? They never straight No. straight, straight are they? No not sort of bits sticking out Windy Windy hello darling. Let her go. He's beautiful good boy yeah are you a good boy? Ben go round there can't wedge through Hello darling. oh ar alright then you've got him now! I'd be in quick Oh Windy think he's a lovely cushion cushion ha hey he's got his cushion back Eh? Got his cushion back ah oh Windy yeah. They get them you can do sort of like Oh Windy has he got his cushion back? Oh dear That trunk divided into two or three different branches Yeah I see it's sort of does that That's right . I think you need to make that a bit thicker so it divides into two Do you to as well or will he eat I don't know what to do there. I haven't tried to get one. Yeah but there isn't a flat top it divides sort of in the middle I don't know anybody Do see what I mean? No I don't a flat top what you on about I haven't got There isn't a flat top it divides sort of Eh! down the middle. I see. Yeah? horrible I gotta rub it out it's no good. Yeah I suppose eventually you'll have to start giving him one won't you? Yeah. Cos otherwise er it's gonna No. lose him. I'm just rubbing it out a little bit to give me a bit more space Mhm. if you see what I mean, right I'll re-draw all that bit in a minute this is all gonna be sort of black. Right so if you mark in where you want it to split I wonder how he'll grow up. Like that. You got you you try it. Ha ha ah. Down the middle so put the pencil sort of in the middle Come and have a cuddle. and draw the the middle bit first do you see what I mean? Mm like that? Yeah and the other side. Yeah you don't That's it. wanna be grown up do you? Looks like a waterfall ha then you just do a thicker one don't you? Then you take that and taper down a bit and then it's gonna split again And it can split like that. Mhm. Have you got used to the feel of him now? And then does that go round like that? I don't know. Basically they feel just Mm you split it down the middle again so that will go off that way and then that branch go that way see? Mm. when Jack comes in from work ha ha. Then And then it splits again and splits again. I can't split it again look at the size of that line I'm gonna have to oh yeah I see what you mean. Mhm. That's for my See the branches get smaller and smaller and smaller. yeah. That's slightly nice. Yeah. I've got we haven't gotta do any leaves it's just an ordinary tree Mhm. of Autumn. A winter tree. Yeah and then it goes up again, yeah? Whatever you like dear it can bend round and Whatever you like? it looks quite weird doesn't it? Erm and I think I may do one in the middle of there and then leave that s like that. But if you were to split that one and that one again can't you? He's ever so stupid he'll Oh alright then. lie down with his head sideways on the floor and his bottom still up in the air. Yeah. No don't get thicker. Yeah. Ha? Oh I see that's your You're a daft dog baby yeah that's what it is cos you're still a baby really. Yeah oh it's lovely to see him not shaking and coming over to you. Yeah, no mm. It's certainly made a difference to him in that four days. Oh yeah you're beautiful now. You can't get any thinner than that. Yes you are yeah you beautiful boy yeah Can you, you can't get any Mhm. than that? So now you can work on that one. That looks weird Mummy does that look weird? No cos you'll fill it in with all the other branches Cos you you fill it in Yeah. with other branches, you see. Don't worry about the lines in the middle and things like that because that's it's all gonna be shaded in. Give your tummy So yes you are His tail now when it's down it's still down between his legs but it's li it's limp isn't it? Yeah, it's not curled up under. No it was definitely pulled up under his Yes it's just down. Yeah. Hanging there. Mm perhaps it'll go to sleep on his cheek. Isn't that lovely that other hostage got out. Oh yeah. There's only two German ones there now. Yeah, it's amazing really. It happened so quickly hasn't it? Yeah. Yeah it's going Yeah. it's going It's we it's once the ball start rolling it Mm. get's everybody out. Oh I'm gonna split that once more I think. Stand all that. I like dogs that sit like these I must admit. Yeah, so have I. there's Fred then and Hipner and they all like being cuddled to don't they?lovely Doesn't he look different to his other parts. They needed to write Yes, he does. a bit more and start making a bit more Oh yeah. Three D mm? Right yes And how you can that you could draw imagine there's a branch Mm. growing out that way and then curving up see what I mean? Yes I se sort of growing up and then Mm but work so like that behind so it it's it's growing that way Are you gonna come down . Mm. No. and then up so you scr draw it starting to coming up like that. He's that bad in those. Yeah or you can draw it Windy! going up like those Windy! on the bottom then No! up like that and as it goes up it gets thinner Oi! and thinner and thinner That's right. like No, I do it but I do it very artfully and turn my back. It's that. That so it looks as though it's going away. Then you can split split it several times as well. Oh mm. What did they tell you about Fred and me? I reckon that looks really sort of weird I don't know why. Well draw I don't know. It'll look less the more branches you draw Windy hello darling. I'll talk to somebody else then. the more real it will look like. Yeah doesn't look Come on. too realistic at the moment. Well you wanna split it as often as you can. Mm you saw where he had his thing done. Mm slightly it's just a little so when he's head Oh yeah just a little tiny so that takes precedence Oh my god! cos er it doesn't get in the way. Ah!occupied isn't he? Yeah engaged you had it . I'll talk to somebody else then. And he'll put up with being stroked as well. . You can see how he suffered, walking in. Mm. I mean if you always He stands there for so long and his eyes start to close you know it's sheer blink and er Oh oh dear Wendy's dogs used to erm get on your lap and cuddle down Aha. and they'd jump up on your lap and then very delicate jumping up although they're quite heavy and heavy. but when they crawl down in the hall they they're no bigger than Oh no. you know I bet he couldn't get in the smaller ball than Fred can get you Yeah yeah. He's determined to go back for that bag, aren't you? Mm. It's supposed to look like one of those cycling hats I know. when he lies like Mm. that. Yeah oh yeah. Well Windy's the legs are crossed and we're away just the legs crossed and we're away there you go. There! He says no I don't like that. crossed no. Yeah, yeah. Oh he's lovely. . No well She's trying to do something. It's gonna take me ages, I thought it was gonna take me . Yeah . Know how to do it properly. No I think what I'm gonna do Have you drawn the haven't you drawn in another branch yet? are you? No I've been doing I've been doing Oh right. a bit of extending and Mm. I've been doing all this that looks nice yes? Yes it does. Yes, non non alright non Mhm non doesn't look nice non. I makes you wonder when there is up there and what's happened to them but this is what we said we found. Mm. But mind I'm surprised he was found strayed Nicole let him off the lead and he's gone phew! Oh yeah. Is this all I'm gonna do, just these two sort of long things and that and then just do those branches there? No you have to do draw another branch coming out of there and there and there and there and you know? Yeah yeah I know what you mean. Little bit longer and he will be. Yes. Oh ah. Don't you think you ought to put your leg down . The way he sits look Ben yeah I love this bit, look. Little bit of white . Apart from his chest he's the only bit of white on him, isn't it? Oh no just a little bit of feet on No, that under on his paws. Yeah. And . Yeah. Round his private parts. Yeah. Hello. Hello yeah there's a good boy. My o's gonna be a snake and I go right down look at that that's the last thing I'm gonna have to be able to do. No. And that I can't I won't go on my if I did it going off it would go over there. Mm that's alright. No it looks it looks wrong. It's alright, Christine. I want he er I won't to do it down there it's out the way. It's amazing how No you you draw lower branches off the off here Just a few I'm talking about this bit. Well that's right. Yeah but shall I do a bit coming off here That's still now like that Yeah looks alright. yeah yes Just leave it like that. That's what I'm saying! Yeah you Yeah you couldn't sort of get at any where near him to start with. No I know. I'll do one branch coming out of there and that'll be it there you go. Mhm. I'll rub out one of these in the corner. No you you don't have to rub out the line you can just draw another one as if it's coming out from a bit you can't see. I don't know whether that's shaking Mm. just because it's up there or not cos it's on the only leg that is shaking the others aren't . Mm it's probably shaking cos it's up there my leg does that sometimes. Perhaps he don't realize he can put it down. Yeah. You've got a branch like that Chris cos they're shaking our chests and that they can't be any . branch like that roll over as well. I Alright? Well he has rolled over. And then you could have But I should imagine they were lying and stay there Well they were in front of the fire something growing out the back Oh yeah he doesn't there You know he sort of he thinks that we're all again so you sort of go go go goes back. Yeah yeah I see what you mean now I think. Look look at him . It's all gonna be shaded in in the end anyway so it Ben Yeah. Don't make it too thin. I'm gonna fill it in in a minute don't quite fit there you go okay? Mm it doesn't really look as if it it's gotta be about that thick coming down do you see what I mean? They're not not that thick but certainly that thick. Oh. Yeah? Yeah. And then divide down like the others. No I don't think that nerv that's nervous cos hi his front legs not. Aha. No it's probably er a reaction like you do if you tickle him in a certain place they go don't they? Well he's definitely a cuddly dog isn't he. So it goes like that Mhm. So why are they shaking like that? No. Yeah odd! And another one Like that? And then I can do them yeah? Alright. Oh like what? It needs to be thicker and that end. I'm trying to do it thicker, I can't do it thicker! No shapes now. Sorry? No shapes now. I can't draw this. You're doing fine! No I'm not. Just don't give up now. Gotta colour all this in it'll take ages! I That's cos you're not getting I'm tryi oh! What do you think I've been doing! Yes? Yes. Oh it's cold innit? Yeah oh he's turning into a real dog. Yes I know what you mean He's not the nervous little thing he was. No and he'll get more used to it, I thought tonight was I was I pushing it too far when he started Mm I've taken it off. but it wasn't it was just that he probably it was Daddy guess what I got for us? What? Guess. Oh I can't guess. Aha! I got Mhm. science and geography and I got art nice. Mm ah excuse me. No see I must admit I wonder whether your Mum will find too much of a handful she's already telling him off a lot you know? Yeah. And I wonder whether she'll find bi erm Cos he's quite tall he can stick his nose into things. And when when he gets to know us a bit better we got quite a welcome tonight. Yeah. With all things considered. We did yeah. When he gets to know us better we'll get a hell of a welcome when we go in. Yeah. I think. That's right. Now we that's one little dog that I do want to get know. Yeah well I think you made great strives tonight. I know . There it is. See Fred Fred knows us. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Aha oh excuse me. It's so long I don't need a map for some reason. Ah crafty! Everybody's seems to speed all of a sudden. Yeah it ha Ha ha! Ooh. Your Mum is is really being foolish though with that dog she's got problems already he's wanting a chew and she's give him one she not give him one to him, I haven't tried him with one yet she said she actually Oh held him tonight while Fred eat his. Mm no that's not good is it? No you give one you give them both she Yeah. she'll have him pinching it off of Fred you see Yeah. eventually if er she's not very careful or they'll be a fight Or they'll start cos they'll Yeah. fight over it. Yeah. New dog or not you know? Yeah. I mean it says in there about feeding them feeding with feeding th a dog you use your own common sense. Yeah. It's as simple as that, he's showing interest so let him have it if he wants it. Yeah. It's not gonna do him any harm you know? Yeah. The diarrhoea and that they're talking about isn't now it was when they first had him. Yeah. Back last week. Yeah it's o it would only be short term wouldn't it? Very short term, yeah. Mm. Mummy? Yeah. Sorry? These things you bought when you was Yeah. Do you think he's dead? I doubt it, no he's probably got too much of an idiot cos he shouldn't have let him off and he knows he shouldn't have let him off. Oh Dad my Aha. I mean it's to set this up, it's about maths Yeah. she wants about my maths he wants he's so Oh right. I can't even tell you so it's in my time plan, I'll show you. Okay It's intriguing. What's that? Mrs passing a message to to us through the time planner like that It's nothing bad it just says erm something like tell her about Ah oh right. Can you remember what it says? No I can't . Well let us have a look when we get home. Yes and then tell me. Oh he's a lovely dog Oh I Do you want me to stop it? I've just now been singing. Oh no!alright. Oh he's a beautiful dog though. I'll finish I'll finish this tape then. I'm nearly done ha Ha. I reckon he's absolutely fantastic that number plate it is drunk innit, it's not me? Yeah it is drunk. Unless it's decided to Yeah. . Yeah it's been bent. No it's all of it even the h and the w I think they might have lost some figures off of it at some time. Oh I think we might call it a day at this with the tapes record this tape What how many and then have you recorded? Well that'll be eleven complete tapes. Oh well you gonna see if you can finish it off tomorrow? Finish what off tomorrow tomorrow? Sorry? Finish what off tomorrow? Well I wondered whether you were gonna try and do another one. Yeah I could try and do ano could do another one tomorrow. You hear the . Yeah. It's screaming. Can't hear it screaming. I saw him he was dying to do that go back Yeah. I guessed it. like that when you're doing fifty. Yeah and the best bit about it is I haven't started to indicate but it was still a dangerous place to overtake. Yeah. You know? Yeah. Stupid place to overtake! Next week I'm at Kingswood on Tuesday and Bishop's Grove on Thursday. I'm afraid you're gonna have to find your own way to Bishop's Grove. Yep. After all this I've had with being late you know? Yeah If I'd passed my test I wouldn't have driven there anyway. You wouldn't? No don't know the way. Oh. Oh I've got a horrible feeling I've forgotten to put the milk in the fridge. Well we'll have a sniff at it and see what it's like. No we won't. Why? I'm talking about the milk that's in the training room. Oh has it ever occurred to you to take a bottle of milk in from home save going out to buy it? Erm Do you think they well it's cartons ah. and they're easier to get rid of I'd have to bring bottles home again wouldn't I? Well yeah I suppose you would. And I get the money back. I'm quite pleased with how I got on at work today with the amount of work I'd done that Good. that erm stops see it? No. It's he's gone by ran across the road and went down that Oh. slope. Did you erm oh you've still got your job description to do haven't you? Yeah. Must sort that out. What's the matter? Just checking Oh thank you for that I was forgetting what it was. Sorry It's alright I thought you were trying to cos of the door I didn't wanna put you off. or No I was just making sure the tape was still going. Probably would have been enough for them, but It's not worth making the fighting your way through is it? lesson before my test Yeah I'm driving along and there was somebody coming round and it was a bit narrow and so I hung back and let him come through Yeah. and he pulled up next to me and he said wound his window down he said ah chicken! What did you say ? Were you annoyed or No I think well I said I think he was pulling your leg. slightly! you could have got through there you chicken. Oh it's quite funny. Oh great I like that No we've seen a fo we saw a fox the other night, Christine didn't we? Yeah. It ran across the road, it even You always see the foxes I never see them. Well when you're driving along you're looking a long way ahead that's why and anything that comes in the road you see it Oh I hope whoever was involved in that accident tonight was alright. Yeah so do I. Urgh!turn that off. It always makes me think because last time we saw an accident like that it was Penny you know what I mean? That's right. And you think oh Mm. who else could it be that we know, you know? He let us off he said you two are supposed to get a late mark but I'll let you off this time three and we've got a detention. Mhm. I bet we get and I didn't buy any Tony. Mummy I don't think it's such a good idea for me to have a wash in the morning . Well I was saying to Daddy actually I it would be better if I got up first and went in the bathroom. I said were you looking forward to a nice pear oh you've got them have you? I said yes . Oh dear. Mum this is supposed to be a silhouette it looks more like a black tree to me ha ha it's supposed to be a silhouette. Well you haven't finished it yet. No it it would have been better if you'd coloured it in in felt tip actually. You can't it it just said a plain pencil drawing no felt tips no crayons. Where's these comments that you want us to have a look at. Oh . Where's Ben only if he's locked out he'll be going hell like mad in a minute. Okay I I'll let him in. Ooh. Mum I don't know where it'll be there. Can I have a look? In the red. Yeah Tony. Look at the red Let's have a look now Chris no Chris has been encouraged to get help with her maths sheets no deadline so I think er that means Yeah he gave me some more maths sheets to do. Right. You didn't even tell us. So it's a question then of Ow out! nice way of saying if you want to help her with her maths sheets please do. Yeah, no it's a bit more than that I think it's a bit of a case of please help her with her maths sheets. Yeah. So fair enough we will Yep. we are on my face with my pants on . Christine? Mm. Sweetheart I'm sorry but you're not I know. doing that at quarter to eleven. I know, I know, I know! It's too late, come on. Can I just finish off the front I can do that tonight,tonight please? No!you shouldn't have even started it when you came in now come on get your coat off and get Can I just do this little bit look just to the end of the branch. Christine!stop now! Just to the end of the branch Please! look . Please no you shouldn't I've stopped! Stop now! It's not fair just one little measly spot. Oi! I know she's naughty anyway if it's recorded, that's her tackled. Mhm. I've got three folders in my bag one one's this one, one's my home economics one and one's Becky's home economics one Becky didn't have enough room in her bag. Oh. And I had enough room so I offered and I dropped it. . I didn't do it on purpose, I didn't . I'll go in up there now then there's nobody else come here. Okay I will. . No alright I just don't want . Oh no he's alright now. Ah . Good boy filthy in Yeah maybe already . Shh! Windy what a name to give a dog! Yeah I know. Windy! Sounds like something's gone wrong with the wind dunnit? Windy! Sound like he has a a distinct personal problem! Ha what? A what? Sounds like he has a personal problem. exactly Windy! Hello Ben. Poor dog I really do feel sorry for that dog. Windy come here Windy am I smelling or do you normally call me that? That's what the dogs thinking. Yeah good boy ooh yes there's a good boy. Hello mm ah ha ha ha ooh tell he likes that . Yes hello. Dad. Dad, don't worry if Mum was telling me off will you over will you? Mm yeah alright. No I got him I got Mhm. droopy draws the one that I wanted for ages droopy draws. Aha. Oh you stinker. Look don't Christine, Granpy buys these from a sweet shop, there's nothing wrong with them. Mm I know I just ha I know there's nothing wrong with them I don't like them. No I know ooh That's the only reason why I don't eat them Ben whe hello alright,. that one is is such a shame cos that's a lovely one but you smell it. Mm. It's out of the fabric conditioner. Yeah. It's just too strong. Yeah. That'll do keep those those go with those I hope that'll fit I don't know my other one erm that's fine but the other one was a bit bigger though just have to see. Yeah. Put it up here and then it'll grow alright, so I've got the black one Ooh sorry. up there and all of a sudden he saw it and he came in the room, Tony and he went he looked up at it and the stood up at the back of his neck and he was going grurgh ever so quietly under his breath grurgh. Oh dear. In the end I had to get it down and let him have a sniff before he . Mummy? Yeah? Can you rubber bands. Which rubber band? All the rubber bands . Shall I put the bananas in the fridge. Yes please I'll ask Mum if she wants them actually. Mhm. You know what the theory behind that is if you keep that moist Mhm. they don't go bad. Oh bom bom bom bom . Daddy Daddy Daddy look Yeah. look at all those. What happened to the ? see all the dolls I got, look They were on the coffee table in the front room and they've gone have you put them away? Or have I put them away. Where are they now? I know where they are it's alright. I haven't No I've I've put them away I think. Oh Ben, don't do that! He's standing right under me while I'm trying to make some tea as I'm pouring boiling water into the teapot and he's right under my legs. Yeah I really missed you not coming into work with me yesterday. Ah. Really odd. Well I can come in Wednesday and Fridays next week. Yeah and what day is you're doing Kingswood? Tuesday. Well I can take you in Tuesday can't I? Yeah. Because erm Ah that'll be fine. I can can't I? Yeah. Got to get Christine off to school first and then drop you straight up there. Yeah. Erm, your Mum wants her pears so if you put them in the fridge they'll be alright she said they were she picked out nice hard ones. Right. So they're okay. Okay. Yeah I said to her if you look up what they were I'll pay you for them and I'll have them if you like he's a real sweetheart he's a good boy yeah Look what I bought today Tony . God we've got enough bananas to sink a battle ship there. ha I thought you'd find that funny. Surprised at Christine. What? Wanting to take an apple with her lunch. No I'm not really. Think that'll be good. Christine! Yeah? I bought a couple of bits for you to give as presents if you'd like . Just a minute! Arghh! Your throat's a bit like that it's . Yeah it is a bit. Do you want peas or beans with yo peas cos we had baked beans last night. Yeah. Oh dear! Here we go again, ha. You got rather a lot of beans. Can I have an apple? Rather a lot of everything in tins, that's why don't know if my Mum was waiting for the invite today only I hope she's I wasn't bothered Oh that's nice. What was? Sunday? Yeah well we can still change our mind in any case can't we? If we wanted to. Yeah we've gotta do something about Christmas my love haven't we? Yeah but we've done some Your saying we've gotta do something about Christmas that's all I've been doing this week! Chasing round doing something about . Er, what do you want for breakfast? Erm Start. Start? Do you want any toast after? They've stuck to the Yes? I think so. Yes? I think so. Yes. I think so. Please mummy? Please mummy. My P forty five's come from County Hall? Oh yeah? Oh I've gotta give it to my new employer. P forty five. It says Oh! a tax form. Here are Kyle. Thank you. Okay? Sit up now and eat it. Alright. Put that book down. Did you want any toast? Cos I'm doing some for myself. Yeah. Just one? Yes? Just one? Right. I'll tell her. Morning! Morning. Oh dear! Er I put my . Morning! That's all the classes? Yeah. About four classes in the . Oh! And it could have been a page. Perhaps actually. Well you'll have to ask him this. Yeah. Yeah. And It's for dictionaries. Yes. Yes. As long as you sort everything out Yes. Ooh yes! I have done. Otherwise they go. That's the main thing int it Anne? Go on! Now push them in girls!shove at the bottom. Well it's a big one innit? That's the trouble! Yes alright Anne. We shall Alright if I call my doctors back? Yeah, that's alright. Push i , as long as, we can get them in. We're alright with all those books in there? Yeah. Shove that in. Yes! Course you can Sandra. I'll lock it Sandra. Ooh!! And turned on the ice. Oh did you And fell. dear? Okay. Margaret. There's a little girl fallen over on the ice. Oh! What's the matter? Now, we'll sort it out. Shall we take in here. Be with you in a minute. Do you want me to do it Margaret? Er, can you? Please. Do you want to sit on there then love? Alright. And right just there it hurts as well. ! And it burns when you've landed on the ice doesn't it? Horrible! You'll have a nice bruise there? Shall we put a plaster on it? Yes please. Would you like a little bit of cream? Yes please. Do you want to just hold that on there for me for a second. That's just Well there are some in here somewhere. Where are they? Oh! Where's the plasters? Any idea? Are you alright? Yeah. Oh here! I can see you're going to do that. Mm. Oh. Ha! Ah! Plasters. Now all I've got to find is the cream! Where is the cream? You could have bled to death in this place couldn't you? Before yo Do you want to take your shoes and socks off? I know, I meant to tell you, have we got the your erm Yes. hand? Er Yes. . You're the one that takes that ta change bed every night? That's . Okay so Oh I can't find the cream! Cream? Cream's in there sweetheart. Oh! I'm looking in the wrong Yes. one. Oh! So it is. Thank you. And I'll get plenty of . Excuse me. On the ice? Have you Penny? Oh dear! That's a good girl! Fell over. I went to the shop yesterday, I was at my sister's but I, oh! . Yes! Yes! Of course. We got a, different, different one in the shi , shop, yesterday. Dunno if that's gonna stay on. In fact, let's get another one. A big strip might be better. Nothing's ever simple is it? Take that one off and throw it away cos it's not gonna stay on. It's useless! I'll put it this way so that you've not the plaster on your your bruised bit. Okay darling? Yeah. Oh! Can I just have your name before you go? Penny . Penny ? Yeah. And what class are you in? Class four. And it's eight fifteen. Okay then love, you can go. Bye-bye then. It's alright, I'm wondering about the date! Since I've been here I've lost all track of time! I know, you do! Don't you ? Yeah! Right. Er, is this your used Margaret ? Yes. Yesterday he came to me and got a . So I've got them all sorted for you. The er, staff meant to be having I had to call her yesterday as well. She didn't mention it! Yeah, she definitely Has she mentioned did, yeah. since? Hello! Cos I saw her yesterday and she already There's a letter for you er Oh thank you. Sandy. I forgot to No it's o , it's my P forty five I've got to Is yo give it in. Oh right! I'll ask Mrs Is this she's in there is she? Mrs er, can I ask ? I've been asked by a market research to do I've got a tape on it's for, dictionaries. Do you want to read that? It's all It's er being recording, all this? All these conversations. Because it's not practical you know, another time. Well I, yeah , can I, I'll have to ask you not to record in school because so much is very Okay. er very confidential. Oh yes! Obviously, I wouldn't record anything No. No. like that But it's just general conversations with different people. Well I can't read it now because I'm going to take assembly in a minute Okay. I've already could you take it off? You want me to take it off altogether? If you could. Yes please. Okay then. Right, Alright Well then. I mean, I can't, I mean if you, if you think about obviously,could be confidential and Yes. Oh yes, that's why I'm asking you first. Yes. Oh yes! Sometimes I wouldn't record anything But don't announce erm . Oh right. Okay. I'll do it Okay. all at home then. Okay? It's absolutely brilliant though! being You got your recorder thingy? Yes. I've got my recorder thingy! Hello! Yes. Is it on? Just forget about it. Right. Do you wanna go shopping? Yes? Do you want to go shopping with me? Yeah. Yeah. Cos if you don't, then I'll do it when you're at Cubs tonight. And you'll have to tell Akela that you won't be there next week. Why? Cos we're going to Nottingham. Oh! I am? Well do you want to go to Nottingham to the disco at Rosy's or not? You can't do both. Well we, can't we go after that? Well, we can't wait till the end of Cubs or we'll be too late going. Well they've already got the cup now, they can't take the cup away from you for best attendance can they? Yeah. No they can't. That was for last year. Do you know that heated rear screen's not working again. It was working this morning and now it's stopped again! We'll go the other way down to the superstore because there's traffic lights down at the end of our road. Okay. Have you brought your P E kit, yeah? Mhm. I've got a sore throat! I don't know if I'm going down with a cold or something. Do you feel, have you been feeling alright? No. No? What's the matter? Feeling thirsty! Oh! The traffic lights have gone out the middle. I thought there used to be a set of traffic lights in the middle and it's gone. Oh yeah. Ooh, they've done that bit! That's better isn't it? Do you know what they do? Look! Yes, I know what they were doing. Oh! And you said, ooh they've done that bit! Yeah well, they've finished it. Well that's the er pedestr , pedestrians or whatever. Was that, what was that funny noises? The indicator. Because I've got the radio off you can hear it. Oh! God! There's loads of traffic tonight at this time isn't there? Had a good day at school? Mm. You don't sound very thrilled. Have to try and get the shopping done as quickly as possible cos you've gotta go Cubs. And remind to pick up Robin. We've not seen nanny all week with working in a separate school. And we haven't seen her all week! No, I know. Yes! She'll probably come up tomorrow. That rear screen's definitely not working is it? Look! How can you tell? Have to get Uncle Bert round to have a look. Just get a little present for Kieran and we'll pop it off to Larry's. We've gone past it now. Present for Kieran, why? It was his birthday last week and I bought him got him those slippers and they were too big so I'll get something else instead. Won't bother with the bacon joint they're too dear. Tear up here with the trolley. Cos there's too many round that counter. Just stand there with your trolley and drink your coffee. Don't need any cheese do we? We got plenty. I don't know. Just ham we need. Do you want tongue or ham. Tongue? Don't do that! I nearly spilt my coffee you fool! What, number are you ? Twenty six. Got another four to go. We could have had another , I've forgotten, well Deanne's got the stamps. Twenty three please! Yeah! On the boat. Twenty four please! Not on boat! Well we eat on the boat as well, pasta salad. Mm! That bread smells oh, it's beautiful actually! What are we gonna have for dinner tonight? Salad. No, it's too cold for salad. Erm sausages or mince pie. It was silly asking you really wasn't it? Put that in the bin for me? Thank you. I'll tell you what prawns. Prawns? Well er, it's cold again. You have prawns with a salad. Yeah . Well we've gotta have something quick tonight because you're, gotta go to Cubs so shouldn't think we need to buy any bread. That really, really smells mouthwatering! Doesn't it? Yeah well Please! Oh look at that ! Oh the That's got all peppers in, you wouldn't like that one. I know. I know but it reminds me of Mm. Well it's no good me buying that one you wouldn't like it. I know er! I know that! You've got a dirty face! Where you been? But er .. Twenty six love. Erm, quarter of the lunch tongue please. Forgotten what . Cheese and sausages. And a quarter of the traditional ham please? Half an ounce over or under? That's fine, leave it on. Yeah. Thank you. Number twenty seven please! Twenty seven! Down there. That's it thank you. Thank you. Thanks. Bye! Bye. Right. Consult the list. Do you want some of this coffee. No I don't want any of your coffee. You drink your coffee. The trouble is, you've got your erm ooh! There's the Shape twin pots. I thought I couldn't find them last week. They're lovely they are! Right. Do you want erm in the little slices? Right. Where are they? Oh they've not moved them again! They haven't got any er Very expensive! They have not got any. They ain't got none Kyle. I'm suing them! You're suing them are you? Yeah. We go, me me me me Ner er er er er Do you want some Aero pots? Mm. You can share them with Dee then before she goes, alright? Cos they're expensive. There they are. Oh! This one won't be enough for me. Well look, get a pack of those and a pack of the Aero ones. Why? I'll have the erm ones. We don't like Aero that much. Oh go on then, I'll treat you, you can have them. As long as you eat them. Well if you say so. That Dairy Milk is really nice. Oh! This I'll get a pack for Dee as well as. What are you gonna get her? Gonna cause a riot otherwise. Er you erm i Wednesday er Miss , er Mrs . Mm! Oh we like them! That's a bit unlucky there's only one packet of butter there. Oh! That runs out on the sixteen of January, that's no good. Lasts a bit longer than that. Ba dum, dum ba dum, ba dum ba dum ba dum . Oh that's February, that's al , Sorry! Sorry. That will be better, that one. Right ! What cereals do you want? Do you want to collect them? Do they do Frosties? Erm Frostied Shreddies, looks like Shreddies with sugar stuck on them. Got more in there yours! Erm I don't know whether to have ordinary Shreddies or Frostied Shreddies? Well why you're making your mind up I'll go and get the sugar. Do you want any more sugar? Erm You're gonna try them are you? Mhm. Don't have it just for the thing that's free inside. Cos are you going to eat them? Yeah. I suppose so. Yes? You're gonna have them? Yeah. Okay. And . There is a whole rack of cereals there, surely there's one of them somewhere along that line that you like. Don't need two bags of them that's for certain. But Dee wanted a loaf didn't she, to take back with her? those. Actually, don't get Ah ah! Get daddy's real loaf. How much is that? Are you alright for Vimto? Yes I think so. Erm are you not going to ? Lyons, mm! Mum,. Do you want a packet of these? Okay. Let's try them. Get loads. Oh! Grab them for me Kyle, cos I've got that tape round me. Erm thank you darling. Put them in the trolley. I don't like that cherry in. Well, you can save it for your dad if you don't like it. Okay? Mm. Don't walk in front of it cos I shall end up running into you. Mum. What? Club Classics you want don't you? Or something Class. Class! Class! Sorry! Sorry! Sorry! Club Class. I know what I mean. I'll beat you in a, in a minute! Ooh! I need a packet of biscuits to take to work. Why? Because you take it in turns to provide biscuits to have with erm Okay. And a packet of Rich Tea for dad. They haven't got any large Rich Tea open have they? Oh look! Malted Milk is dearer than . I know. And they're only the same shape. Funny innit? Yeah, and these are a different packet. I thought I saw a packet then. Right . Off we jolly well go. Don't need beer, don't need wine. Do need beer. We've got the men coming next haven't we? Mum! Oh you push it then! Is there any Lambrusco? Have a look at the price. Yes. We'll have one of them. Oh no you don't need that as well! I know. Oh it's two forty nine. Oh I see! Mm. Right. What crisps do you want? Plain please. Mm mm? Can I have mixed? Okay. Get a few packets of what you want. Buy those together ones. I wanted a . Alright. Please. Put them in then. Thank you. Bum bum bum . ? Why are you getting those? They're for Dee to take back to University Oh! with her. No I won't. I'll get that. That's right, same pattern. Kyle! That's cheap! A pack of mince meat one twenty five. Wa , are we buying one of them your, your Hello! Hello! It's meant to be like ours that. Some cheap buys aren't there? Sorry? Some cheap buys isn't there just Mm! after Christmas. Yeah. They're trying to sell everything off aren't they? Mm! It's only one twenty five for Yeah! It's all . Mm. Urgh! It's all sticky! Right. Toilet rolls. Erm, trolley! Pardon? Trolley. Oh! Let me erm push . Hang on! I want a tin of fruit. Not fruit cocktail. Well they they actually put a over this time. Look. Mm. Dee da dee dee da . Oxo cubes. Da . Is it again? Fruit cocktail, yeah. I suppose it's part of the and a cream. Do we need some jelly? Yeah. Choose a jelly. Why don't you pick up Angel Delight and got a free jelly with it back there? A jelly and Angel Delight a free green jelly.. Well nip back and get it then if that's what you want. What flavour Angel Delight was it? Erm, strawberry I think it was. Well nip back and get it. Are they on the next aisle? Mum! Yeah? With Angel Delight on this bit you get a free jelly with this. You choose a free jelly. Well we still need a that's not the sort of jelly you like. It's alright for me on my diet but it's no good for you. Yeah. Nip and get an ordinary jelly. Another jelly? Yeah as well as that. Mm! I've got it. That's bolognese in oh no, that's chow mein. Just one. Just one. Oh. It's warm in here! Lo look at those! What is it? Beef and tomato. That's not though. Mm. Yes it is. I don't think you'll like that it's a bit spicy. I know. I think it Just stick to what you know. There's chicken supreme I should have your chow mein then. Or chicken and mushrooms? Oh no that's Pot Rice, that's not Pot Noodle. I know there's Pot Rice and Pot Noodle. Pot Did you find your glove at school that you lost? Oh! Well! I knew it! Forgot to look didn't you? How many did you want, one or two? What jellies? Yeah. One. Oh! Don't need soap powder. Are we still having them? Don't need Comfort. Yes! Can you that for me though. Pop it back in the Put that there. Yeah. Right. Tin of spaghetti. Tin of baked beans. Not that one, it's got a dent in it. No! Not H P beans! Th tin of tomatoes. . There's tins of, that tin. Tin of carrots. Okay! Was that everything on my list now? Ooh! Macaroni. It was there . That was the last aisle weren't it? Kyle! Down there. No it weren't that aisle. Must have been the one before that. It's there. Stay there with the trolley. Do you know what cornflour looks like Kyle? No. No? Hang on there then. I think, that's it. Let's just check the list. Yeah. And then we can go round to the toys. Go on then. You can have a quick look at the toys. With you. Can't afford to buy anything anyway can you? Yeah I've got four quid at home! Yeah, I thought you were saving up for a new game for your Sega system? Ooh! Dad's soap. You go, I'll see you there in a minute. Where's soap? Is it round the corner? Well it's round the corner there. Yeah dad's coal tar soap. But that's all. You go to the toys, I'll see you there in a minute. Can I Yeah. just get daddy's soap? What's this? Munsters Today. Mm? Munsters Today. Munsters? Yep. They're a family of four. No, three. Munsters today. Is that the same as the Addams Family or is just a take off. Oh yeah! Munsters. You know the Munsters don't you? I know but they sa , they look just like the Addams Family to me. Yeah I know. You're not sure which one came first. Addams Family I think. Probably, yeah. At the Co-op last night? Oh look! There I knew that! I thought they've got the carton, so I went all the way through the carton, they were all nice and everything. So Just six of them Oh six of them ! goes, I had to pick all six up for that price, put them away for next year's presents. Well the packets are broken, you couldn't really give them as, as presents you know. I could find some more cellophane to wrap round them! I'd have bloody managed ! And it's got faulty written all over the box, you know. Er! I've given it to her. I got told last night. Yeah but I mean There's a Walkman playing here all on it's Yes. own. Yes, and it's recording! I'll tell you what it It's not. is. It is Eh? it's recording you. It's not! It is! That's why it's got a record button at the side. I'll show you then. Standby! You're worried now aren't you ? Aren't you gonna say hello to little-un, put it on there for me. Yep. It's recording. What? Is this my coffee then? Yeah. We got two tins of those now. Do you fancy nipping round to the Co-op? Yeah, I've gotta get salt anyway. And some get me two Jumbos and Tunes. That's a point, take a Jumbo with me to University as well. Mm. They've been popular there. I had a woman knock at the door the other night Yeah. She were knocking for this thing you know. Yeah. Yeah , cos she's done, interviewed me before. And sh , they've also done Tony once I think years ago. Market Research. Oh yeah! I've had it before, yeah. Anyway, that's the letter that I have to show people that they've recorded on the tape. Anyway, she said erm, would I be prepared to, you know, wear the tape for a week and record Wear it? Yeah, well you, clip it on when I'm not Oh! you know. The microphone. For the microphone, you see, and you clip it on. And erm at the end of the week she'll come and pick it up, pick the tape up and they give you a voucher for twenty five pounds for Marks's for doing it. Bet now, you wished you'd erm agreed don't you? Yeah. Nobody's been asked me to do this. Well, they come back after a She was looking for a pensioner but, you weren't in the right street. Oh! Something like that. It's gotta be in this street. Yeah. Yeah. And it's probably the area. She'd got certain areas that she'd got. And I said oh no, they're just round the corner. She said, oh I know, it's gotta be a a woman's . Mhm. I said my mother's not a pensioner yet. So it's your Walkman, not hers? Well no,the mic belongs to them, they're gonna come and pick it up. It's a lovely Walkman. Mhm. It's got a counter and everything look! So how many tapes have you got to put in then? Twenty. That's the third one. Oh and after that you gotta in. And I have to keep a diary of who spoke on it. And You're on it. That's the diary thing. But they won't let me do it at work. Mrs said th , there's too much of a confidential nature goes on in school and, I'm not allowed to do it at school. Mm. In other words they don't want to. But you can only do it when you're at home or out? Yeah. I've wore it all the way round the Co-op superstore last night. Did anybody see you? That'll be intriguing! Yes. Shop assistants and everything, you know, I was talking to. They didn't realise they were being taped obviously. Mhm. You can't tell everybody can you? No. No. So I thought it'll be interesting, be a laugh! Yeah. Oh right! Thank you. Certainly will! Shame I couldn't take it to University with me that'll be interesting ! Yeah! They wanted Dee. They really wanted Dee, but she's Uni. at Univ , got to go back to University. She's no longer actually resident at this address. Yeah. Mm. They couldn't do me. So I said Mm. Shame really! University life would have been really interesting on there ! I played a little bit of it back last night to listen how it, and it's brilliant the way the picks things up! Yeah. But Eh? I bet it's not very interesting conversation though ! Probably quite boring actually. Well it's erm, it's not for the conversation content it's the words. Yeah. Right. What words are in general usage in which areas. You know if there's any fixtures. Yeah. Fixtures. Well I'm doing my bit for er, education and, and a bit of posterity. Mm. Yeah! I said to her my husbands on he should be a bit careful! Yeah! Yeah! Do you think she would have . Do they want F words? Oh yeah, they want all words, really that we use, you know, naturally. started yesterday wasn't it? Ooh look! Tt! Are you taking anything? Just wanted to know. Who's picking you up? Tony's taking her home tomorrow morning. Go to tomorrow evening . Oh! Tony's taking her is he? We got two boxes and an armful of You got enough then? bags. So it's a good job I'm going in with him I tell you ! You're not going as well? Are you just letting Tony take her? Well, there's not gonna be a lot of space is there? No. He's going home quickly with her then, He'll be there and back in a couple of hours. Oh yeah! Easy! Well I could He can just drop me off, you know with the stu obviously unload the stuff into my room and that's it, then I can Oh that's what he will do . Yeah. You won't, you won't get much else than that, no. Yeah. Just see you to your room I felt and make sure your stuff's in a wal walk off and leave you. I'll tell Joe not to bother being there then. Why, he wanted to see you? Well yes! He can help carry the blooming stuff up. Yeah, but I mean wi , he doesn't know what time we're arriving anyway, but he was gonna come and me meet him but er he might not be up in time anyway, cos he's got a lot of work to do and he thinks he might be up all night tonight, in which case, he won't be getting up very early in the morning. Did your woolly things fit you, yours, this? Yeah! Great! Sure? Yeah. Lovely! I'm gonna wear one tomorrow when I And your slips knicker slips? Yep! And then there's those. It runs in the family this er these eye for a bargain. Oh yeah! Oh yeah! Definitely. It i it is. Do you she's been shopping Tuesday and Wednesday. I, I've ooh I love bargains! Get them for a last bargain. Yeah. Well don't everybody? No. No, not everybody. No, not everybody searches round like a and dad's mum's a bit like that, she goes to a car boot sale every week now. Does she? Yeah. She gets all sorts from car boot sales. Oh that conservatory this morning, it was ringing wet! Oh no! Er , if you slept in there you'd have had to lay there with umbrella up! It was just like rain coming down. And really bad! What condensation? Oh! Condensation Condensation. from, oh, from the floor drying out and that? Well, we don't know whether it's the floor drying out or not, we thought floor was near enough dried out, but it were just Yeah, it were just like rain dripping! Oh my God! Takes ages. I if anybody was sleeping in the house like, and people think you are Yeah it does, it takes a long time. Yeah, dab it round with a Especially, it's the wrong sort of weather int it? a cloth on the end of a broom Yeah. for the ceiling see, you know, the you know, and dried it all off. Leave one of the little windows open all the time. We have the door open all night, it's still just as bad. Just as bad as open or closed. There's a layer of frost inside and outside of those windows. Mm. Course, it's thawing out. I'm hoping it, once it's dried out that'll go down a bit. Once we've had some fine weather Yeah. it'll, it'll dry out. But oh, you beauty! It was I think it'll be right until after er the summer really. Sally's was months before she put anything Was she? in it. She was literally months! And even when she did put furniture in it Was hers built in the winter or summer? A spring I think. Spring? See, mine's winter isn't it? Yeah, so it takes a bit longer It's all piled up I think hers was built early spring I think. Yeah. But yours'll be And er ready after the summer. I reckon it's gonna be a, a couple of months before I can put any carpet or anything in. She well, she had to have her tiles on the floor of hers. Cos hers was a very Mm. big one and it took ages to dry off, yeah. And this morning when we, when we went out there it was just She had to leave the floor, they had to walk, that's right, they had to walk on the concrete floor without tiles on for a long time Yeah. before she could have the tiles put on cos then it had to be skimmed and then the tiles put on. Yeah. But she, you know, it was built for a long time before she got anything in it. Yeah. It's the wardrobe space I'm desperate for, you know. Doug's getting the wardrobe doors out now and having a look, see where he, what he can sort of do with them. Was he alright the other day when you come round with the Lada and then he Yeah! said Yeah he was . Yeah, when I saw him once, he came in he said He come in and, about quarter past three and bought it up didn't he? Yeah. Left the keys here. Cos Tony said he'd be alright cos he had Cos he said Dee was gonna a lot to work, other work to do. I said, are you okay? And he got no answer. Yeah. He'd he'd done it all, he was happy enough then. Didn't appear to be! Yeah, and I saw Well him Good idea! Well it seems silly it's why don't we sit over there? Come in the other room. That's two Jumbos we need. Yeah. Are you gonna nip and get me some Tunes and What from Co-op? I thought I had Is Tunes all you want? You can get me another loaf could you? She got,Jumbos I'm actually cold. as well. Oh! I was getting them. Do you want any more paracetamol or anything? She needs I've got paracetamol. You could get some Cocodamol Okay. Well I was going to go out for Jim's He wants to go to where? Jim's and what? He just wants to get sweets out of me, that's the thing! I can tell! What? You want to get something out of it, that's why you want to go. Well you wouldn't have got anything anyway. I've nearly finished those curtains. I know. Have you? And I've just got to make the tie. So you might as well let me go up Kyle. the tie backs. Were those things Dee got you, those hooks that you want? Yeah she didn't want them exactly the same, she just wanted it, all all the same Ah! So she was happy with what you'd got? Oh yeah! Yeah. Any , cos you won't see them cos Yeah. it's one of those curtains they're gonna be behind the But she wasn't sure whether she you know. No, they were fine. I thought you could take them back to that Wilko's if they were no good, you know. No. They were fine. You got a hole in your sock! I know. I know. He walks around without shoes and slippers on all the time! Do you like your job? Yeah. Good! Happy there? Mm! I am bored! We know. Oh God! Well look at this stuff in, on this chair here! You've got, if you're not gonna play with it, put it away. Do you want a game Kyle? Yeah! Lexir Elixir. Elixir! What's that? Elixir. Why don't we have that then. A game that you can't play! Elixir or Monopoly. this afternoon. Dee? Elixir. Yeah! Give me the easy one! Where you going, in the other room? I'm not saying nothing. No. In here. the room ! We'll probably sit on here actually. No I, if we do it on here rather than on the table it'll be easier won't it? This is amazing mum!to play games! Do it on the chair here . And then I'll move. I'll go! I'll clear up. I know when I'm not wanted! No! I know when I'm not wanted! No you're staying here! You don't want me! You don't Coffee? love me any more! Just cos I play on my computer and you don't You don't wanna kiss me , you don't wanna cuddle me, you just don't want me So you just . at all! Do you? Read this! For goodness sake give her cuddle and shut her up! I thought you could still cuddle. Ah! That's better. That's better. Okay. Yeah I do. Yeah! Not daft is he? Not really. I thought I'd saved the cuddles and there weren't any more. Right, tens play on. What? I Tens weren't gonna part with them till I got one! And you to go then. I see what you mean about sitting in this seat. The sun's in your eyes. Sun's in your eyes. I'm not, I just leave out that chair for you sit in it so you didn't get the sun in Er your eye. I'll be blue. Oh I can sit down in it. You be blue then. I'll be red. Actually the sun's ! Any anybody else playing? It's only just cooked on the fire. No, I don't think anybody else is playing now. The chair's moving! Mum, do you wanna play? No ! Go on! No, I don't wanna play. Oh go on! Please! I don't understand No! I don't understand it. Kyle, remember what happened last time she played. I really don't understand it darling Mum! so it's no good me playing. I don't wanna play, no. I've got And this. I've got too much to do. I just don't understand the game Eh? and it just won't go through my thick noddle! Yes I know. Don't worry ! It just won't. There's not much point asking you. Have you got pens? Nope. I'll write with them. why not? Where's the pot? There's a pen. I'll be in there alright? Yep. Yeah. . I thought he didn't have any sockies on . With his socks, I know why Doug don't wear them now cos er feeling really ashamed to see it ! And I didn't see it cos he put I thought, I wonder why he don't wear his socks? I'll slip them on and put them under my shoes . But now I know, they're very uncomfortable. Those socks I got Tony at Christmas, were they any good? Yeah. Lovely! They were Marks and Spencers socks. Yeah, I just put that down Kyle. Seconds but , they're still Marks' socks aren't they? Why didn't you put them away like I told you? They were alright? Mm. Cos I thought they thought seem a bit thin but Well I but I mean and that was in er Cotton do don't they? down there Were they? Yeah, they got I wish I'd bought more of them. And just sort of like that. Yeah but I got another . you don't do you? No you don't. for twenty five pound. Do you know how much it is? Yes I know how much it was Kyle. That was at that catalogue. That's why they don't let you have the Walkman. sale in Thurmaston I got them. Er, what do you call it? Chain store and catalogue only It's cos it records. sale. Oh! That's where I got them from. Oh I've not, I've seen it advertised round Yes! here. They only here once in a blue moon. The next time you seen them advertised, go, because a lot of the stuff is Marks, Littlewoods and all that. Where's Mm! this? Those socks that, they were Marks' that Tony had. Where's this? It was at Thurmaston that one was. Oh! But they were all different halls weren't they? What is it? Yeah. I it's ca , just called erm Chain Store and er Catalogue over-makes and seconds sale. And they just Ah! go in a hall somewhere and have it for a day. Oh right. And we just happened to see it as were was coming back from Thurmaston we popped in and sa granddad got a pullover and I got those socks for Tony. But there was a lot of stuff in there if you could fit yourself into the what they'd got. You know Yeah. the sizes. They were either very big Or very small. or very small. So I might fit in some of them then. Yeah,tha that's how it appeared that all the medium-sized stuff gone. Yes. But if you're very big they had zip up,ga granddad got one, a zip up navy blue bomber jacket five quid he got that for! Good God! Bomber Yeah! jacket! Eh! But he's an extra large. Mm. And on him it swamps but it don't matter . It'll fit Tony a treat. Can't remember when I had that bomber jacket. Cos it's ever so big. You're joking! What make was that? It had bomber jackets. Can't remember. Not really. Don't they? It's not a famous make or anything. I like them with these Some of the things have got famous names some haven't. but just a plain one. Yeah. It's sort of like the socks, they've all got Marks and Spencers on. But they're, I don't think they're seconds I think they're over makes. Mm. You know what I mean. But they're not, they had to stamp up. No, they . Yeah. But I thought well they were made originally for Marks weren't they? Yeah. Yeah. This mine? And they had erm Yeah. ooh they had jumpers, and skirts and you know,e everything was in this place, slacks coats duvets. Oh. I could do with a new duvet for our bed. Well Ooh! Ooh! Ooh! Ooh! You know where you wanna go? You know that new place in opposite Lewis's? Mm. It's, er it's called something disposal place. Opposite Lewis's? Yeah. Opposite Lewis 's. The they've taken over a place, only temporary but they're ever so cheap in there! Bankrupt so sa clothing? clothes, yeah , yeah. It's not called bankrupt clothing, it's called It was clothing. It's I've pointed it out to you, I've said, it's nearly all linens in there didn't I? Oh that? Yeah. Oh right! I know where you mean. Yeah, it's erm They got all duvets and covers and Just up from C and A's? Nightingales it's Yes. Yes. called. It's not called Nightingales. It's just called disposal sales or something. It's right, you know where the, the alley goes through into the Haymarket Where Richard Yeah. used to go up. It's right on that corner. Oh! We went past it that time and Well, there's always a queue in there! You go in there and look round. Shall I go first? You know those Go on. door mats, we paid one twenty five for one down Did you? Wilkos seventy Er nine P. Oh I saw erm er er duvets in there That's my last one. at half price and duvet covers a , all at half price. What do you want? I'll go Is this where you're told to go No you can't stay in there Ha! You go in there if you want a duvet Oh yeah. anyway, and have a look. Well I can't afford it just yet so I'll have to Alright. When you want , anything in the linen line go in and have a look. Erm And go upstairs as well cos they got an upstairs. Very, very cheap the stuff in there. Erm And famous makes but that's all seconds. Don't! They are pretty little cheekbones! Oh! Mickey! Come on then. ? Er yeah. The sunshine in the conservatory. No, I'm gonna make a and then rescue and it's gonna be in there and get the diamonds out . Every time I wanted there you know, just in case she Oh! The pretty things! hasn't had any done. Oh they're lovely! Yes! They're smashing! I want six so Ah! Only just six have come in this time there's can't remember . Mm. I would say so. He must be about five and a half you know. Yes. Well we've had a eighteen month old. Yeah. Nearly fo , about four years old when Phyliss died. How old's ? Five or six. Oh he's about oh he's with it is he? Well I dunno then but it's, but he's good health and he looks so Well a lot of people are in good health and they drop dead don't they? What do you mean, Tony and me are in good health? You've got a definitely depressed mind Mrs ! Stevie did it! Right. I know the . Aren't you cold? Ooh it was bitter this morning weren't it? I said to her Why did you take the ? cos I'd got the coal n th the fire. Don't be stupid! I started shivering and Tony went at half four this morning, he's gone to Widnes. Half four did he? Yeah. He's gone up to gone to Widnes that way. Pete's gone with him? Mm. Both of them. Both gone up there, yes. He's not going to work tomorrow now? You staying here? But I should think er Yeah. I'm gonna buy it! do some erm You're gonna buy it? Right! Yeah. Make your mind up which one you're doing. Oh I see. You can't, you've gotta stay there. But can't you stay here now? No! You do one or the other. Look! That you got these Abbey National sort it out, thank goodness! Oh! Did you get it It was bothering me, that's why I wanted her to go up with us Yeah. in case there's any problems we were both together What's that? Yeah. What? It was no problem no, but I was there in case. In case, yeah. Now i , say it's all this backwards and forwardsing all the time weren't there? Well, we went and had lunch didn't we darling? Did she tell you? Oh that's right! Went and had lunch together. Ha! Yeah! Couple of hours erm together all on our lonesome. Yep! Here they come. Six. First time for years isn't it Dee? That's what I told her. I said it's ages since I've had her all on my own. Yeah! Oh! That pretty singer! . Who's that pretty singer? Show me. Yeah, he says, I am. His whole body vibrates when he sings don't it ? I know It sa , come from the tip of his tail though. Yeah. Yeah! Pretty boy there! Private. You have to pay this straight away don't you? Yeah. You can keep it ain't allowed to use it. I think, once they get pa paid off straight away. No. What? I don't think so. Yeah. You have to pay it straight away. Oh do you? You have to pay for it. Oh right! And once you pay it I'll put it back. I'll . You have to pay for it and then you can use it when you want to. Okay. You can use I want that though. In that shop that I've just told you about, there was, they had square rugs sometimes a bit about twenty six, twenty seven quid. Oh that's good. Any bigger ones in there? Yeah. Bigger than this. I want a big one for the dining room. It was bigger than this and they, they were about thirty, thirty five. They Oh! varied as to what your I want one in cream and blue. But they had them like this and they were square and oblong. But there was various I think about sa sa sa sa sa , eight or nineteen upwards to about thirty odd. Oh I'll go and have a look. But it leaves I just want one But just to go under the Apparently , oh no you can't get They've gotta have,tell you they take disposable goods in. Yeah but you're going in and so they get your you know what I mean. But one woman, I saw her grab one it was greyish and sh she got it under her arm and she weren't gonna let it go for anybody, you know ! She's not gonna let go of it ! It's you on one of these right. Oh that's a nice carpet. So really just one She said so if you get to the shop you shouldn't be able to buy them from unless you took Chinese rugs like that? Yeah, but she hung on like blue death! Yeah. That one was eighty odd. Yeah I know! I said you paid a lot for it that's I'm not paying that for them now I'd pay why I made him tell you. Mum! And that was erm I need Don't a carpet for you know, pop up the ends like. Wait until the next time you choose. You go in there and have a look, but apparently you keep Stay in there. going in till you find Are you gonna stay in there? Yeah, but we never go by very often down there That's it. do we? Just go and have a look Did you buy them? at some carpets. Oh no. You bought bargains you'll get it. Oh no. I'll stay in there. And those poles across with the Money! Money! Money! Money! we got them in there. Hall width is I the same as the side cupboards. I know. Cheap isn't it? Mm! I'd like one of them for the landing. And you know er you have a pole and then Yeah. you have like a scrag of material over it? Oi! Ee! Oh I know what you mean, yeah. Yeah. Hey? You're on my . And they've got roller blinds with the er That's been done. well No. and they're very well done. No , they're cheap. We buy them for They were er five, six pounds. Dunno what size you want. Erm They were upstairs. I erm You see, I could have got all the roller blinds to fit that conservatory. I'd have got them for five or six quid a window Oh! but not cheap. And that's what Lin's got, roller blinds. It's not she's got long venetian in the conservatory. Has she? Yeah. I thought she had roller blinds. No. In fact, they showed me at the back, she's got the vertical Erm Dee. Dee, if you land on any my yellow squares Is that one colour you've quoted or or you No he do , well he he came while we were You could do er we sat there waiting till twenty five before we went out, he didn't turn up. When we come back there was a card in the door to say he'd been. So, when I got No. You don't have to during the afternoon, I rang up again and said that, you know I waited till, about twenty past eleven Do you want the ? and you hadn't come. Cos he said he was coming between ten What? and eleven Got a piece, I'm staying there. Right. Coming back since, I got the wrong ! The card was in the door, and you rang him up anyway So I rang up, and I asked the cos we'd been . And I said would they pass me over to So we really we I'm competing against the bird and the telly! That's what sending my head funny! And er, she said she'd pass the message on. Anyway, he rang himself before he got the message to say he didn't turn up till quarter to twelve and he's coming again Tuesday afternoon now between two and three. And then he got the message last night, the same, it's me again! So he rung up again ! You see he's he hadn't got, you know, got it Wait a minute! right the first time. So anyway, he's coming on Tuesday afternoon. Nowhere near finished yet! It's Nottingham he's comes from. Cos we're the end. Oh. Right. I've gotta find the potion yet haven't I? We haven't had any sun for ages! Yeah. You know, with the bad weather we've been having. We haven't seen good sunshine. It's , it's your er Kyle. It doesn't really matter! Stick him outside the back door it'll silence him ! Poor little devil! Right. Yeah, what is she saying? Isn't she cruel! Ah! Isn't that cruel! Yeah. Erm right. Come on then. Alright. I'm moving. No I'm not, I'm staying there. I'm gonna go, one, two, three, four. Total stranger. Don't bend the cards. Alright, so can I have the dice? There was some, er bathroom or toilet, they got a big Yeah it must have been! one pound twenty five. Two. Can I make this? You know, a big drum of toffee coloured mincemeat, one twenty Yeah. five. Eh? What? Big bag of peanuts. Are you got mincemeat? Yeah. Oh that'll be good ! I only Erm and hearts and things. Right, I'll stay there. Your go? Mhm. One, two Right, I'll go Ooh! There's something wrong with ! Well, the more you talk the more he whistles Yeah. have you noticed? Yes. And,pa , he he's competing with you all the time. And he thinks I'm another canary you see ! Oh yes, he's very alert. Yeah I will . Is he a big one and a canary? Oh you've frightened him, look! Tt! Kyle! Out! Dad'll come down Monday morning You get off. about eightish as normal. I love ! No you don't. Goes to Stay there. Right. I shouldn't have brought that actually, so I'll just not do anything this go. It's your go again Kyle, what you doing? Erm staying there. Right. Surprisingly enough! Considering you've got no Did she get through to this Danny eventually? Cos you was having trouble weren't you? Yeah. Erm, what had happened was, the phone was off the hook. He phoned me. Ah! I see. She put sixty P in and lost it Ah! did she tell Yeah. you? Yeah, it's on the phone bill now. And then credited your phone bill with it. Probably spent it again now ! The amount of times you've rung him this week! You know, it's only a small proportion of what it costs ! Well I'll be gone after this week and then I won't need to ring at all so Thank God for that! Then you'll be phoning me at Birmingham instead ! Yeah. But at least it's cheaper to Birmingham I think. No it's not at all different is it? What reduced Birmingham. if it is. Oh if it's a thirty five mile radius It's meant, it's a lower rate , it's, it's the lowe , it's betwe , in the mileage rates, it's the lowest rate I think you'll find of mileage. It's and not only that, it's also a direct line, cos main cities have direct lines or something Oh! and it's cheaper for that. Whereas Bolton is just outside Manchester so it Well, you know erm it's Reg er er along that that's where they've moved to is near Bolton. Or in Bolton. Yeah. It is Bolton. Yeah, it is Bolton where they've gone. Yeah, they're actually in Oh! Edgeworth Erm trying to think,Kersley Ker Ker , what is it? Kersley Oh I've got . I'll have to look up their address, but it is Bolton where they've Yeah. gone. Yeah. They're, he's a he actually lives in Edgeworth . Right Er my go. I hope I've got some work coming up Tavistock and Devon. Have you? Oh. Bully for them! I ju , you're not sending me to do it! That's a certainty ! Come on then. Kyle! You're playing with those! I was just thinking it would be quite convenient wouldn't it? You know, to Right. Can I for , you know have the no not playing with if dad's going to or something or drove something down Oh he would, yeah! He could go and see his mother. Oh yeah. Go and see his mother. That's what I was thinking. If they wanted to. Or if they were going for a day then I might go down and Your go. As long as you don't ask me to go that's all that matters ! Okay mother. Cos I just don't want to go to Devon. You see you've gotta go virtually through Bob and Tracey's, Bob and Tracey, or past Bob and Tracey to get to Alright. Tavistock. Yeah. Yes. I know. Yeah. That main A road's it's to Tavistock. Is it? Yeah. One, two, three, four. Your go. Mm. Yeah. Well, your welcome Can I go to it ! on there? Oh that could just be a possibility as I thought send dad on a delivery down there. Really, if he wanted to. Yeah. He wouldn't mind at all. And then do it on the first time well if he wanted, he don't have to go. As long as you don't ask me to go with him, I don't care ! Can I go? Mhm. Can I have a no, I'm going to have the Does he normally drive in the lorry Right. No. He's quite happy to I'll actually go round there. he's definitely made it his own that lorry ! Well yeah. He's, he rang up and he said, when he come home er to tell John Sorry about this. to turn the van round and put the notice up along the wall and lock it up, make sure it's safe. Right. And make sure the nose it to wall be , so you, so it's alright for him the next morning, you know ! Yeah. Oh dear ! That was I had to laugh when he rung up Anita from home, he says hello gorgeous it's me! I thought, oh God! .To Anita ! Go on then, let's have it. He always calls erm gorgeous. Yes. I thought, I hope she knows who he's talking to ! This is the nearest. Yeah, gorgeous is really one of these Also erm sort of There. Right. I bought this. He quite likes her actually. Yeah. She does him Okay? as well, I think. But he does quite like her, genuine. And he likes Peter as well. Mm. Peter's a very likeable fellow. And he says he quites like quite, he he said he quites likes them all really, you know. Yeah. But he says I gets on like quite well with Peter and Yeah. My go? Anita. Ah ah! They think a lot of him, you know. Don't know why,I'm sure ! Oh no. I think, I can't remember. You keep moving ahead a bit Kyle. He's not the same when he's at work. No, possibly not. You know when I go and pick him up? it's my go because I took this card. They all start yelling out, why don't you chauffeur me? An , and taxi here and Can I take this one? They all say goodbye to him as we're going out the door. Perhaps he don't moan as much there as he does at home ! I can't move. He's just one of the lads. You know, they I think to myself, they must be sick and tired of hearing him moan! But er, I'll buy a diamond. Can I go? Perhaps he don't do it in Your go now. I'm borrowing. Things he says Right. to me, I think God I bet he's been Which one's are you borrowing Kyle? driving them all up the pole you know ! Er Z and . Which gem? Have you only got one sort? Diamond. But he comes home Diamond with it? two, three o'clock So,. most days, you know. See right. Unless you're picking up and then it's four. Other than that, he comes home Yeah. Okay, you've What erm succeeded! Er, seaweed Just trying to think, yesterday come round and ivory . ooh no! It was about Mhm. quarter to four when he come home Seaweed. ten to four yesterday. Erm, buy eight Just trying to seaweed. There we go Kyle. Yeah, he must have worked till half past three last night. Kyle, put it back down. Er, which is quite late ? Yeah. Get the potion card out. Yeah. He only averages about twenty five, thirty hours a week really. Not a lot really. Your dad doesn't he he He does, he was , he was doing about forty five weren't he? He's never done forty five. But you keep Press that. saying it, but he's never Where did I get forty five from then? He's never once done forty five hours. I don't know where you get that No from. don't show me what you think of your cards. Well I've worked it out because of the What? hours he was working er from th starting at eight in the morning. He's never ever done above thirty five. Honestly! Ever! Not once gone above thirty five. Oh right. That's the maximum he's ever done. And I suppose what I was thinking was that when he's worked till five or six he was doing it every day, but he hasn't. When he's worked till five or six he will then Four. have a half day. He's had a day off or summat but, you know, but Oh. he's never ever done above thirty five. Ever! Not once. Oh! Honestly. I dunno where you got the forty five from! Well, it was just me working it out. But now I had a little pair of white ankle socks and can I find them? That's why I've ended up For you, it's er putting dad's on. cos you erm Because what? Er these I got Oh. on. I see. It's lucky. I didn't Four. know anything. I'm just picking up the . Just presuming. Mm. Oh! Is it my go? Did you find any cards remember? No. They all went rotten and soft. They don't They're er keep those apples on our It's your go. tree. Two, three, four. Yep. I got the first one except for this one. There's hardly any others. The first one . Erm right. I'm back again. My go? Your go. Er I'll give you Kitty the cat burglar. Those were ever so nice that they got weren't they? I've already paid you, so Do you think she's coming? Yeah. I feel really sorry for her, yeah. Yeah. Really pretty! Yeah. Before No, Right. Stay there Kitty! No stockings. No slips. Er th , have I got to have my go now? Erm that was your go wasn't it? So I just use this thing you've got? It doesn't say. Stranger. What's what? Erm I got another fire. But I mean The gonna be What about. red then. No! Kyle, wait a minute! Perhaps I haven't got any. Where are they? What? Where were they? In my lap. Is that coke? Can't use coal so So What? You play at any time yo , during another pers , another player's Oh! So I should take that back? No. Oh! It's a, ee that goes . Okay. Ee er you're not going Have you seen my curtains? Oh yeah! They look good actually. Just going to make some plaited tie backs, you know to hold them back. I was gonna get the drill out again for the Any one. holes for those hooks. . I could have made a job Alright there? of it on my knees. No he's saying he wants to go upstairs. Do you think we've got to take the ? . Oh yeah! Do you wanna take it? She could take it back with her couldn't she? what? And have you got the next one right? Yeah. do I look right to there, right there and then it's What did you get it or something? What? Oh right! I'd forgotten what it was. Sorry! Yes I su suppose so. Terrific . Round a bit. Alright? I'm not saying anything Kyle! You're not supposed to tell anyone what you got. Right! I've gotta write it down so what with that? Kyle? What? I can't see Well go on then. through it, can I? No, but you're just looking at the pen. Bloody pen won't work! Mm. It's only red pen we got. No, it's cos this it's not flat surface. Your go. Okay. My go? Mhm. I'm going to have Ooh! Did you want any books? Yeah. I'll stay high I think. A what? I've got there. Gold. Right. But not allowed on his own. Right, erm Do you want those chocolates ? I'll stay What? there. Do want some more chocolate? Yes please. Oh! I'm Who's done it? buying Nobody. . Let's have a look. Stay there. Alright. Stay here. One, two, three, four. That's is here okay? If it's easier or whatever. Int you having anything else from A Avon? I don't know now. You'll have to wait till half past. So they've been about being erm Oh yeah. blue. I keep buying after I go at half past they half a dozen Two, three, four. Oh! Good grief! And they come ? Yeah. I'll have to check, I don't know how many I've got in there, I don't look. I'm going to go No, that's the trouble Six. when you want it, it's not Er that's right. One, two, three, four. Is this the new one that's just come then? Yeah . Well Dee is, very, very good! So anyway, it's erm Yeah it makes no difference anyway, it's three isn't it? Three. Ah Dee! It's not fair! Mum! Dee's won. You should have presumed that you'd get it. I thought this had got it. You were doing it to me. water. I've never done it to you! When have I nicked your potion? Oh well, it's not yours it's everybody's. Er Kyle I seem to record you nicking mine very frequently young man! Exactly! He does try to. I've got an idea I've read that but I can't be sure. I've not read it. It's your go Kyle. Yeah, but I didn't think you were allowed to steal it. Dee Dee. Yes she did . I haven't It's just that she didn't succeed. Right, it's your go. I'll take it. Kyle. I'm going to go up to there so I've got a good idea I might have read it. Oh right. Well if you have If I find out I'll give it you back. But I'm not sure. Right. Right. Yeah. It's difficult to use but er, it's possible. It's possible. Mm! Hiccups. Oh. I've got hiccups. Oh right. I'll just go That's alright you could o , you should have for ten if he's got he right erm card. Yep. One two. Oh the gone here. Yeah. Blue's one Dee. Just thought, you know you wanted stamps Yeah. the post office shuts at one down there. You can get books of stamps from anywhere. Oh yeah! Jim's got books of stamps. Yeah, they got them everywhere. Yeah I know. I say, Jim's will have them. Quite handy actually ha bringing out those books of stamps. Yeah that's I've seen it. Right, your go. You did put it at the bottom didn't you Kyle? Yeah. Because, well otherwise I will know. Right. I'm staying there. Staying there? Yo , oh. Are you staying there? You got take a strange card as well. Yeah I, know. What? What? Dice. Right! Why didn't you say so then instead of Isn't it obvious? Not really. It looks like you've gone mad Kyle! That's a point, erm first person I've ever known to be bored with last night at the . Mm? Yeah. He got drunk. He's he must be mentally retarded or something. He comes in and goes round talking to anyone and everybody and everybody hates him. He starts singing and Elderly chap? No! Not tha , not that elderly. Wears glasses, and he looks a real idiot! Yeah. That's cheap innit? Four seventy five? Yes it is, int it? Mm. Thin face? Yeah. No, I'm not sure actually. Walks with a limp? Not that I've noticed. He's got a glass eye and a wooden leg! Fine! Yes mother! He used to chew the ge fat for our geese. Yes gran! Very proudly he does that. What did he get ? Did you get, oh alright. Are you talking loads of money? Mm. Oh we got a free joke as well! You know what I'm trying to do don't you? ! Erm and suddenly my name's red not blue. Mum! Tell her off! You get three bottles, three full bo bottles. Yeah. I were just looking at this. And I'm staying there. If you buy one of these? You get one Oh well any any of those pages forty to fifty. How big? Oh I dunno. You're staying there are you? You gotta pay three to get out of there you know. Oh! Sample. Yeah. Free sample. It's not a big bottle. Oh no, it's only a little one. No. Right! Erm Oh I don't need to go the damn shop now. One, two, three, four. Right. Yeah, succeeds Yeah! Ca , give me! Give me! Give me! Give me! Give me! Give me! Give me! Give me! You're not gonna out yet Kyle. What? You can't get out till next go though. You can't Kyle! You either receive on gold or you move. And you can't move so you got to receive on gold in which case you've gotta wait till next go before you can move. One, two, three, four. Doesn't like it when he loses does he ? He's not lost, I wouldn't mind! Don't like you! Er! Stop! One, two, three, four. Skint! Yes Kyle. You don't have to talk like a baby! Kyle! Stop making that noise I don't like it! One, two, three, four. See you can't use any of mine! I thought they were quite like Don't want to. Mm! Don't like you! One , two, three, four. And only silver plated. Yeah, and gold plated. Oh! Gold plate . Erm Er, what shall I go? Kyle! What are you doing? Oh dear ! Kyle, you're not there yet! Go back! If you're gonna be silly I'm not playing! And you don't take a strange card in the blind alley. Don't want that one. Don't you? No. I suppose I mi there. Your go. Erm One, two, three, four. Ca , if I go in there and I'm not injured Mhm. do I still have to pay for these on? There's a Weight Watchers on at . ? Mm. I don't think so. Monday nights. I don't think you can go in there, so Mm? Cos it's this one Are you going? To me a , Weight Watchers is a waste of Dee, what do you have to give up? time it really is! Three goes. I wonder what for the For that. three pounds eighty a week for? Oh! Yes. So you just That's how I think, yeah. it's just ? I always think it's Yeah. waste if time. I think that's all that happens. Do you know I've been dieting for week and I feel Yeah. really good! Ha ooh ! Right. Your go. I told One, two, three. Yeah! I don't think you can go in there unless you can Okay. I'm carrying on. One, two, three What yo ,la low fat is it you're trying Mm. to do. I've cut out fat. Mm. Unless, you know, as it's possible to. And erm, what do you call it? Potatoes and er Yeah. Sussed it! bread and eat Yeah. things like that. Mm mm mm. Ah! You're not doing very well! Shut up ! Shut up Dee! You're being horrible! No I'm not. Yes you are! Stop arguing with me. It's not nice to er, be rude. Dee! Ah! It's very rude. Don't talk like a baby Kyle. Your go Kyle. Your go . And you're supposed to come out Yes! Are you having another one? I don't know. I'm tempted. Right, I'll have a look. I've got three I'll have four ! One , two, three, four. That's what I mean. I'm tempted, but I I'm su , I'm not sure how many I've got I'll have to check. I've got the potion for ten gold. I've, I know I've got at least one if not, two or three, you know. Cos I keep buying them every time they're half price It's your go. and put them on one side. , I'm not telling you. No Dee, I'll have one. I don't think I'll order one un I'm not telling you. till I've checked. Perhaps I'll just . At least you can't move me now. You can always ring me. Tell me the news about Tom. Mm! Could you put the coin back? Well, I might not just want it there. You'll have to go for another one anyway. I don't need the coin thing. Yet. Right! Ten gold . Two, three, three, four, five seven, eight, nine ten. She's got loads of money! She got two potions! She's nicked off That's what I'm waiting of me, she's stole to come to come on offer, yeah. from me! What a powerful That's really good! If that comes on woman! offer I ain't paying that No. price. Ooh no! But if it's, comes on offer Right. I'll have some. . These, I'll have fungi fungi. Or if I go to a car boot sale and I see some of that about one pound erm , Oil of Ulay wash off. I wish I'd have bought more of them. They were all a pound. Kyle! Tt! Tt! Fool that I am! I didn't know they were that cheap. Those are mine and I bought this book I'd have another one. the . And I want to be be Watch this Kyle. Kyle if you're gonna be silly! Right ! Erm da, da da da da da. There? Right. That's alright. And two up. It's my go. Mhm. And I'm going to stay there. Now come on make me . Yes Kyle. Two, three, four. And you're aren't you? You've gotta move so much there. Mm mm. Yeah. Mm. But, I'm not Your go. desperate for really. I can't think of Anyway, I know what that is . like you say, it's sort of outstandingly cheap why bother? What? We brewed exactly the same potion. And nothing's outstandingly cheap really. And I know what you've got . Is it? No. Have you got That's it. second part? And you still got through the ? Don't know. You tell me. You don't know. I've got some of that Footworks for to If, I show you mine will me show me yours? rub off hard skin. No! Kyle! Not Take brilliant but Did you? it's not No it bad. If you want some I'll get you'll get two of them and you can have one of them. No I've got one , thanks. Oh! Gimme! Pardon? Kyle! Don't! Please! Erm I didn't say anything. No they're not. Kyle! Be quiet! Have to look for it. No! Cos she's being horrible! You're both horrible! I'm not being horrible! I don't, I don't know why I didn't abandon the pair of you at birth! Just turn it right down . Alright. How many goes did you take then? I've got lots of shower gel. And my granddaughter bought me some for my birthday, and my grandson bought me some for my birthday ! Yeah I know ! I get the hint Ah! Ah! that somebody telling me I stink! I got loads of toiletries and things this year ! You should worry, they obviously think I stink more than you! Oh! Christmas. You do! Got loads and loads! And you had a load more for you birthday Okay. didn't you? Any time. Yep! And loads of chocolates. I'm taking a lot back with me. Erm, Dan loves After Eights. And I got box of them . I don't even like them that much. Don't you? Ooh I like After Eights. I like After Eights. I like the odd one occasionally. No I don't want nothing. Alright then . Er no I'll check when I get home and if I need Alright. to know then I'll call you later. and I, if I get onto my last one I might order one but I've got Dee dee dee dee dee! an idea Kyle. there's still Your go. three there. Alright then. And one lasts me six months. Here we go. Good! Alright? I just left it there. Yeah. I don't think I shall want anything. One, two three, four, five, six, seven. Erm I want blue Ha! there. One of those, one of those. And don't forget those chocolates when you go. They've been knocking around since Christmas. What? Been meaning to give them to me. Ever so slimming these chocolates you keep giving me! You do know that? They're nice chocolates it's just that they're all soft centres and Tony only likes nutty and hard ones. Oh. Does no , nobody here like soft ones at all? Not really. I've got enough chocolate of my own. And a lot of ones I like. Erm, er you need to pay for those Kyle. Three. Since that what you took. I wouldn't like to be here tomorrow Kyle. Come on Kyle! Play the game properly. It's your go. I want a little toilet roll to fit in that . To see she's wiped her arse ! Look at Kyle! Look at him he's gone up Kyle! ! Thought they'd had enough . Going to have a little Kyle! little Andrex toilet roll. being horrible mummy! Oh for goodness sake! I'm not being horrible! Right! Your go. He's sa What you doing, you staying there or moving? Yeah. The sun died down a bit didn't it? Here's your card. Oh I'm tired ! It's these half past four mornings, they don't suit me at all. She was yawning all round town yesterday! She was tired weren't you? Yeah. I didn't get much of a lay in this morning either . Gotta work tonight darling? Yep! Yeah. Last night there tonight? Yep! And then she's off and I can ? have her bedroom! Yep! Wahey! She wants to ring up Oh yeah. Street tax Ah! office Ooh! and find out how to claim her tax back. Pardon? Yeah. Stay there. No. Kyle! Mhm? That I could al , soon ask mum to stop you from going in my room if I wanted to. If you're gonna be like that. What? What is going on? No you can't. What's the matter with him now? I'm having a little family, family argument. Erm what are you doing Kyle? You don't need anything. You've just moved. Normal families don't have Oh yeah. arguments all the time ! A normal family My family do! argument . Two, three, four. You got through the still ain't you? And you're trying to get my second part aren't you? Kyle, I've already told you, I know what that is cos I've got it cos I brewed it myself if you remember. Good! My go. Yes I know. Why don't you take me, take me prisoner? I'll take you very, very shortly if you carry on! Yeah. Right, and I'll take everything! I've gotta get at it sooner or later. One, two, three , four. Right. I'm back. Kyle! Your go. I Oh. can't go round till next go. Right, now I can go. Actually the Which one was it? and in the . Yeah? Erm where was that? Right. And then they go on . That's how I feel . I just thought I'd die . What, doing what? Cleaning it up you mean? Clearing it up with those and putting those erm tie backs on. To return . Oh! Oh! Oh! Well, is it a with your tie backs? Yeah it is actually, a lot of Gotta wait. fiddling. Right. Your Erm go Kyle. something, three two's each Gotta have them anyway. roll again. Ah! So that and them Oh! and then you gotta finish off the ends and you gotta do four of those. Right. Is it easier to buy that So it's three. sort? No, I don't want those. I want it looking special in there. Dum dum, da da da da da da da . Did you ring Keith? What did he say? Oh they're going to come and give you another quote or something you said? No I haven't rung him yet. . What was his other quote? Er I've lost my card! Er Stop mucking about with it then. What was the other quote for? You said you wanted to get hold of him for another Front wall. Yeah. Oh we want him to do that, our front wall when he's got five minutes. What are you doing? Oh. Gonna give the plumber the go ahead, yeah? It's my go isn't it? No. Yeah. Not really. Got no money accrued now. Ah! Is this ? Right! Erm Got through so much money at Christmas, you know. Pardon! Pardon! Yeah, well I think so too! He's probably coming round. Oh well I'm supposed to anyway. Er, where d'ya go? Your go Kyle. You want one more? Those Jimbos finish at the end of this month don't they? Mm. Twenty fifth. In January. Yeah. Twenty fifth? Twenty fifth. Right. Go on again. Good! Erm right. Very, very nice! Oh! I suppose I could go home again! We're sitting here dozing off ! Yeah ! Erm Oh. See if my husband wants a hand with these bits of wood he's plonking up against the wall ! No! No. She says ! He likes playing with his bits of wood! You know all that wood he bought home Done them again. from the factory, that Oh. Yeah. he's making the frame for the wardrobes Very good! out of that Out of packing case? Yeah, he's awfully Oh! clever as you Erm know! Oh! And er,th Oh it was off the machine? Yeah. They come from the factory . Yeah. And he's, he's using that to make the frame and then the doors for our old wardrobes he'll use for the front of it, you know. You told me it's fungi fungi. Formica type Yeah. ? No! No! All teak. Our old wood's teak. Wardrobe doors. Oh! Bit clever. But we're gonna stain them mahogany. How do you know? To match the, wood round the windows. Oh! Once they're up th they'll be, be stained mahogany so They were just plain weren't they? They just had plain wood, yes. Plain sta , plain teak they are. Stay , staying just there. He's gonna stain them And it's . so they look like mahogany. So it matches the rest of the wood in there. But then, that'll just be the fronts you see. Th Yeah. the frame and the back'll be th , wooden panel case wouldn't it? Ah ho! If it works. What's he putting against the wall? What's he cladding the wall with? We're going to have to get some polystyrene or something and put that over there and then he's gonna get a plain er wood panel, you know I want to get round to on the top. So it's you with me? It's insulated slightly with polystyrene behind. Mm. With hardboard or something. Yeah a sheet of hardboard with a like a plasticy finish one side and Mm. you with me? Go! Go! Go! He's gonna have to have a Your go Kyle. he said he's gonna get that van and go up Wickes's and get all these things that we need. Cos you can't collect them in your own vehicle can you? He could do that all afternoon when he's finished work I've told him this! and just go in the van, nobody'd mind. I says to him yo , oh he knows this! He said, oh I'm not ready yet, I don't know what I want. Right. Four gold. I've only been twelve months waiting for a . work top! That he's gonna get when he gets the van. If that one of ours is still out in the garage I think I'm gonna use that in the utility room. Yeah! And put the put the erm washing machine and tumble dryer side by side against the wall. Okay? And put that as a work top My go? across the top of the two. And put that across Yep. the top. Yeah. See Yeah. That'll come in there. Well I was thinking about I'd have had that if that had been a different colour, but it's cos it's brown it's no good in our kitchen. It's gotta be grey in our kitchen, or white. What about, a cream What was, what you doing? or Yeah. I'm going round. But it won't go with our kitchen Right. It's one. it's from the old kitchen where the er, with one like a Erm Yeah. If only that had of been a grey or a cream So I've got three golds er er grey or a white I'd have had that. I'll stay there again. What? Alright in there, I'm going to and I'm staying there. Right. Er yo I hadn't taken the three gold from the go before Kyle when you went in there. That's why. One , two, three, four. Don't want that. Right. Er He still likes his new coat. I should blooming hope Er so! Your go Kyle. Well no, she's decided I hate it so er . It's your go Kyle. Okay. I should blooming hope so! I don't Dee wearing a coat. You'll have to show me your coat before I, you go. Yeah. And disappear with it back to university. You told me about it, but I didn't see it. Didn't you wear it up town yesterday? No No. she had a black coat. Keeps making me black. It makes you black the leather coat? The black is rubbing Yeah it's the off. As it's new. Is it? It's getting better actually, but erm it still makes me black. I Oh. didn't notice. Tha what round your neck or something? Yeah, well at the cuffs and things. I've got an exchange card Kyle. Well fancy it doing that! Mm. Je , you're looking I've lost. at the potion. It'll stop doing it eventually will it? Yeah What? I hope so. You got a higher one? Tt! Typical! Come on! Come and break my leg potion. Have you Scotchguarded it? Don't need it. Yes I have. Twice. Aha. And has that stopped it? Well it's helped it. It'll help waterproof it and I suppose it would eventually Yeah. It'll stop, don't worry. Oh show me before you go won't you? Yeah. Well, she'll be gone again tomorrow. You didn't pay for those either. Yeah. About . Well actually I should do that next go anyway. Right, I've not bought those yet. That's for those two. Erm, your go. Shall I go? Mhm. What is it, bomber style jacket? Yeah . Yeah. What would you like Kyle? . Pardon? , you can try. Yeah. Flying jacket sort of thing. I think he's gone a dumb . Oh with fringes on? Has it got fringes around it? You can speak Kyle. Mm. No. No. Anyway, your turn to go. Not speaking to her! Right. So, now I'll buy those. Try not to Hey! I want my gold! Ah. He's granted Pardon? Pardon? Kyle! Say please. You can go now. Won't play games with you if you're gonna be rude! One. It's alright, I'll know how many you've got anyway when you start buying them. Right. Erm your go now Kyle. Some people have children that like each other. That's you. Er, one, two And some people murder their children! two, three, four. Five. Did you see it on the telly that bloke that threw his little girl off the bridge at London? Tt! Oh! Five month old girl. Tt! Cos he didn't want the mother to have her. How could he do that? He didn't want the mother to have her, so he threw her How on earth could he, that sun's gone down that, along side that house Did I tell you? Nope. Don't know how he could! How he can do that to a little girl . Right . Erm Isn't that awful! It is innit? Your windows are filthy! Go on! Hey! I'm going, I'm going to the bathroom. Now the sun's on them, can you see it? Still not finished On the outside , yeah. Yeah! Could do with cleaning Well the window cleaner's not been for a while has he? About six months according to that ! Oh! You're still writing! Well he has been, we've just have a lot of filthy weather haven't we? But it looks filthy! You can see it. Although it's between the two layers of glass is it? No. It's not double glazing. Stop me borrowing it and . No, it's on the outside there. You're nowhere near it yet are you? It's steamed up between the layers is that what you're looking at. Ah! Up here it looks dirt. Not steam. Where the sun's hit it. Don't tell her that! . It'll stay there. It's as the sun hits it this side. See it? Yeah it's outside, look. Ah yeah! I see There. it's outside, yeah. Well, You staying there are you Kyle? He came about a fortnight before Christmas. Pardon? Are you su Well, it's just in that part. A month int it? That what? Mm. Yes, I know what you want. Yeah. Terrible innit? But what do you say? Well, I'm not going to do it today. Oh no! Right. My go. That's why I was tempted to have those Staybrite windows cos it repels all that . But Tony said they're no safer. I don't even want that one. cos he took a bit of the U P V C Kyle! to work Bring them back! Put it on the floor in between you. Yeah. Yeah. It's just that I don't trust him to only take one that's all! He took a bit to work? He took a bit to work and sliced it Is that right? and Alan says if you can still tell any of them that way. My go? So in that Yup! case I think we'll have the Kingfisher ones. Might just as well. That's how I felt about it. Save a thousand pound or summat don't You go then. you? Two. Two thousand pound? I'll soon know when you Kyle. It's worth saving innit? Is the Kingfisher still One, two, three, four a good price? Yeah. Because it's a month since they sent me a quote and actually we want a big one for our lounge but Did you see that one advertising triple glazing at the same time as his double would you believe? I thought, yeah. I can't see what you paying, why you need triple glazing. No, not really I suppose. Be I'm not sure what the benefits are. They have triple glazing in these cold countries don't they? Is it my go? Mhm. Yep. Erm , Finland and places like Norway, they have triple glazing wouldn't you say? One I wouldn't have thought we'd need in this three, four. country though. Right, your go Kyle. Be warmer. Be that much warmer. Borrowing But I don't feel cold Borrow it. anyway ! Well I did Your go. first thing this morning, but then, I was Yeah. perhaps that was just because I'd got up. Cos he was double is quiet and three . Two. Erm Your go. Oh I go, yeah. The sun's just crept right round this house . I just need one You'll be hanging off with that to chair in a minute. I will do as soon as I've decided what I need. You see it,i ,it's just come round Thirty eight and I keep peeping round. Fox leg. Oh . So that makes it worth three rather than one cos it adds two on. Right, and I need I read a book about Bulgaria. You had a book about Bulgaria? Yeah. Trouble book. Cos o Joanne and Dennis went to Bulgaria. They reckon it's quite cheap to go there or something Yeah! don't they? Look at the prices of things! Yes. There was, you know these travel programmes? Yeah. It was It's on about it there very it says unspoilt. tha , yeah, they said if, if you don't want a lot of Do you want a game of Monopoly after that? don't want the shopping, Bulgaria's the place to go. No Kyle. I'm not and play a different game. It's absolutely wonderful It's cheap. actually. Do they? Not just fo for the cheapness Can I play Monopoly? they said the people were very Please! friendly Yeah. and can't do enough for you. I know. But I haven't got time. Well how much is this? Well, to go in I'm not going to Bulgaria! to go in a hotel Alright! I'm telling you now! Shut up! I'm not talking to you! You don't wanna go? No. Right! you stay here and let them go. Good idea! Hundred and fifty for him for a fortnight at the height of the season and two hundred and fifty each for us at the height of the season. Well that's alright , I'll stay here. But,the only one here, yeah I'll Cigarettes, twenty, twenty P for twenty. Yep! That's where you can smoke and a hundred and fifty a day ! We went in a bar the other day You can have them coming out of both earholes, each nostril and his mouth all at the same time ! If he could find some that he likes. Well you'd cook a lot better! And the im , the im , the imported brands are forty P the British ones. Phworgh! Phworgh! Bloody hell! That is cheap. Beer, fifty P! Wine, one pound fifty a bottle. And Bulgarian wine's nice you know. Are you going to Bulgaria next year for your holiday . No we're not! No. Don't! Kyle. Why don't you wanna go to Bulgaria? Not your choice. I don't like it! It's supposed to be Well how do you know cos you've never been? I do have a choice! And what do care about your holiday ? It's your go Kyle. , now she's sunk! It's not fair any more. It is between Greece and Turkey. It's your go Kyle. My go? I thought it looked wonderful! Oh yeah. Yeah! Actually, on that travel programme Looked very nice! it said that I need that . Which ones are you brewing? it looked lovely! You know when Dennis went Er last year? The top ones? Right! Dennis said it's the first holiday he's ever been on where he's brought money home with him. No you didn't get them in the top ones. He says there's, you just couldn't spend your money and Yeah. everything was so cheap. And he's She bought herself an entire new wardrobe of clothes Right. cos everything was cheap. You're supposed to take before then. She'd got designer t-shirts I didn't. and Yes you did! erm designer leather No I didn't. handbags and shoes Kyle! and things. Yeah. How do you get to wear those? I don't know. I don't know. Right, you're sixteen Must be the place to go. I've seen it advertised how cheap it is and I thought of you. Like erm it's like a snakeskin look handbag Yeah. paid about three quid for it! Erm Yeah! what am I doing? I'm brewing as well I think. Said everything is so cheap! And, to go out for a meal Er the two of them, you go out for a it's full course dinner in a really nice restaurant, drink wine all night Succeed. it were five or six quid! Gotta be worth going to hasn't it? Is it, is it warm country, Bulgaria? I don't know. Yeah! It's hot. It's like Greece, it's the Is it? the same as Greece. It's very hot. It's in between Greece and Turkey. On that Well it would be the same climate as Tu , Greece Yeah. then wouldn't it? Yes. And most of the food's the same as Greece. Mm. Quite beefy and all that. But it's not hot enough. It's the same! But it's not It's the same food Kyle! It's right It's not been commercialized though? next door! It's not been commercialized. No, they said it's er I think it was communist run, I'm not Still not going! sure. Mm. I'm, I'm not, I'm not sure about it. You haven't got any choice where we're going , you're not paying for it. Yeah I don't know, I'm not and I've that does pay to go there. seen He said the beaches were absolutely gorgeous! They were all Told you I would! you know Eventually! beautiful clean Mind you, the brew's better before two that I haven't done! not a big tourist area loads of space! Mine! You got the whole beach Yeah. Kyle! to yourself. Yeah. I didn't nick any elixir did I? They said it's absolutely wonderful! No. Well then! I had to make it all myself. Tony, what's Tony think of it then? He quite fancies It's done it erm when we were looking the other day, he quite fancies it. through here and Yeah. and er more or less That was it. I didn't take any others Kyle. you could do it , there's only Bulcan and that Here, no, look they can do it. And all the You've only got You finished? one company that cover Bulgaria. What would you go, self catering? All the rest. Yeah. Yeah. All the rest of what? I mean, it's looks nice Didn't nick anything else Kyle ! I must admit. Just one gem worth the two gold. And you can fly on a Sunday from Birmingham Yeah. It's a lot! to there. Yeah? You see a weekend flight is what you want. Yes, that'll be Isn't it? ideal. You fly out on the Sunday evening, six thirty. And how long's the flight, does it say? Three and a half hours. So it's the same as Greece. That's not bad is it? The villas look nice don't they? Do, don't they? I thought it all looked lovely! Yeah! The dearest holiday's only three hundred and compared with the Yeah! as it was. That's the absolute dearest, you know, for the weeks we're going. Yeah. Mm! Definitely worth thinking about. Mm! But definitely worth taking a little visit. Yeah well if I sit like that. That's it. Sh I'd speak to Tony anyway if I was you, just in case. Gotta have our holidays. Well that's a lot cheaper than the Jersey and Scottish holidays that we're looking at ! Exactly! A lot cheaper. It's cheaper than staying in England. Do you wanna take that book and show dad? Oh! He wouldn't wanna go! Especially since the price of the food's so bloody cheap! He won't wanna go! Well perhaps you can tell him how, how You what he's like! how much the cigarettes are, he might. It won't make any difference. He wouldn't wanna go. I bet you. Ca , hmm! I think once you've had one holiday abroad you know, he'd love it! He just don't wanna go abroad, you know. He's so I know you would because I would like to go abroad, yeah. But he he doesn't wanna go abroad and that's it! Why don't you two just go to Bulgaria then. Be cheap enough too wouldn't it? Oh! There's an idea! What do we do with the rest of them! I'll stay with daddy and we go and do Yeah! things like You stay with daddy. go and , yeah, and we'll go something really And take granddad with you. Yes Kyle , I'm sure dad could afford to just you two down to Lindos. Well mum could pay for Bulgaria and m , and dad can pay for the erm and you could go and stay Ah well ! with, you could go up with them I need a drink. if you want. Want something to drink? Yes. I'll go off to Bulgaria with them. Yeah. Me and daddy go to Lindos. Darn sight cheaper! Ha? Yeah. See how he's planning. Five hundred quid and the actual Come back with four hundred and ninety nine ! They're supposed to be a ten each. Well, each of them Ten pounds the year before that, it was first and I could just sort of discovered Kyle. God! That's where he ! Yeah, but I don't have to have things off the Why don't we pull the curtains. , right? Yes. That's a good idea isn't it? Oh great! They've probably got more sense! Even I'll say that. Peter's son went to Bulgaria two years ago. Yeah. And he was a student at the time and he hadn't got a lot of money and he took what was it she said ? He took all his savings, about three hundred pound with him and brought hundred and fifty quid home with him ! No. He said you know, cos he lived as cheaply as he could while he was out there and Yeah. he still had some left. How long did he stay for? Fortnight or a Fortnight? Bloody hell! Yeah. Because to to er, if he I saw that advertised somewhere else. Was it in America or something about it? Don't know. If you're self catering Don't Tony ever see ? Yeah Yeah. I thought I saw his head at the window. I'll go now then. I'm just gonna tell my dad . Dad erm her and are gonna go there and you and me are gonna I was right. Was it him? Yeah. Ah! I'm in his chair. You're in his chair ! I'm going now. Hello! Hello! Yeah, I know it's about fifteen P and Yeah. and all that, you know. Goodday! Hi-de-hi! Ho-de-ho! Will you let me borrow your hair? Alright. Trouble No is because they can employ their own and not . I thought I'd wait and see Mm? I knew, and he Must be. decided at the last minute last night to have the weekend off cos things were going alright. Who? Alan , the engineer He's on site. So You went to see Alan and he's decided to have the weekend off he said. You've gone all that way for nothing? Well, we delivered the goods. Oh! Cor ! It was waste of time two of us going to see a man on The See man that wasn't there. Oh! Oh well. Er right. Are you going upstairs? Oh I'll get ready to go to the club. Alright. Oh dear! One last night then she's finished. Looking forward to it. Oh, it should be alright actually. A lot of people know that I'm finishing tonight so I might get bought quite a few drinks. I'm not drinking them though. I'm just drinking Coke. You can't have the one? No. She's allowed No. to have like packets of crisps and stuff. I've got an idea , you can take them all back in a Yeah ! big bag ! I'll have two packets of peanuts, two packet of biscuits, two . Yeah! Exactly! And they got the cheese Except the drink? sandwich and all this sort of thing. I don't have any snacks there. That's it! Yeah. I wouldn't mind trying some of those erm And come back with carry bo bagfuls and Do they have the scampi fries there? Yeah. Crisps and And the bacon fries, cheese moments Oh I love all that stuff! Tortilla chips are they? Those Could do with a cup of tea honey? Mm. You could do with a cup of tea? Might cost you And he wants his chair don't you? might Here are. cost you a kid! Make you go out then, then I'll, and I'll make . Quick Tony! Look! Er er er er! Mind! Mind! Mind! Mind! Your coffee there. Mind! Mind! Oh! Careful! What you doing? You did it! Oh yes Kyle! If you let me do it, what happens? You weren't quick enough though. You wouldn't want it, oh God! These are Kyles. What? I will er love and leave yous folks then. Okey-dokey mum. Thank you for coming up. Nice to see you. That's alright. To see you nice! Bye. Bye handsome! Bye handsome! Oh ! Ah! He's gonna go sleep now. No. But I don't blame you. Yeah? Oh! You said chair out there. Right. See you folks! Bye. Bye-bye. Bye duck. Bye Dee. Where is she? Bye. Bye. Are you going down Oh it's warmer. are you coming down to the car? She could drop me off. You could give nanny a lift. I'm not going yet. Ah! Alright then. I'll walk ! Gotta have a shower before I go. She's gotta a sa , alright then. Bye darling. See you. Don't forget these chocolates mum. You got the book? Have I got You got that book, mum? Yes. Give me the chocolates. Yeah. Do you want those chocolates? Yeah, I've got some chocolates to take. Nothing else I've gotta take is there? No. I remembered the measure. Er! Oi! They're just there. You! He found the spots. And ne nearly . Cos I'm rather tired. Oh! Go on mum! No I don't want it! I don't want it. But I just thought it might be . Right. I'll see you mum. Bye! Bye -bye love. Have another drink. Mum. I bought this . Have you had any lunch? No, I'll have some breakfast that's all. You want some breakfast. Yeah. Are you stuffed up with cold as well? Mhm. Oh that's two of us! Snuffle together. Yes. Do you want the telly on? No, just gonna si , read the paper, have something to eat, go to bed I think. Oh! Tired? What do you want to eat? Oh! D'ya want. Well you'll have to get dressed cos we've got to take Dee. What do you want the paper or the magazine? Get them both. Well this mounts up! straight through then. twenty five minutes here. Dan managed to ring last night. What, at the pub? Yeah. Eleven o'clock. Is he meeting us today? He's gonna try but he's not sure if he'll get up in time cos he'll be doing an essay in the night. Why do you do it overnight? Cos he won't have time any other time. Well he could get up early and do it in the morning. He'd rather do it at night ! I don't think he'll be in any fit condition to do it every morning anyway. I certainly wouldn't! Prefer to do things last thing at night, rather than first thing in the morning. I'm the other way around. Much rather I'm a morning person. Mm. I didn't think he was gonna be able to get through cos the phone broke down didn't it? I thought, oh great, you know! The one night Dan's says he's gonna ring here the phone breaks down! And erm it couldn't take incoming calls or outgoing calls. So how did he get through then? Well about ten minutes to eleven, cos he was due to ring at eleven, the phone came back on. Fluke or what? I think the lines must have been down. Yeah, out of order. Tony got up at six in the morning. Oh great! Got a lot of work to try and fit in. Yeah. I'm not looking forward to this trip at all! I hate, ahem Pardon er , I hate driving on motorways! It's only an hour long. Mm. It's not like it's a long way. Yeah. Cos I don't motorists . Yeah. I don't like them, even when Tony's driving. Mm. Feels pretty safe doesn't he? Mind you, I bet you Well Tony's a good driver. It's the other idiots! It's not my capability Yeah I know. it's, or, or my driver's capability that worry me Yeah er it's the other idiots, you know, you see some stupid things! Mhm. Gold isn't as good as butter. Tony had it on with this Delight Clover Light. Mm. And I got rather fed up with work last night actually cos there's a load of drunken idiots and chatting me up. Mm. Oh well it was your last night, you go back today. Exactly! That's the way I kept lo to looking at it. Well if Dan hadn't rung then I'd have been extremely fed up. Weren't on the phone for as long as he is when he rung you here was he? Well he was ringing from Birmingham, he'd put a pound in, it lasted twenty minutes. that er normally lasts longer from Birmingham than it does for for here. This is the wrong way round, should have had the grapefruit before the er, egg and bacon. Yep! That's the usual way, you know ! I've actually got eight bags and erm, three boxes. Mind you, the problem is, that they're small bags you see, and I haven't got many big bags left after Thursday. I'm tempted to get another box and put several of the small bags in it, so it'd be less to carry but I couldn't get a box that was big enough. You know, I was gonna get a deep one. But I'll just well they both wanted to go to the car. Yeah. I've gotta have a bag. Last night as I'm going to sleep all I could smell was like ashtray, you know! Urgh! Horrible ! It really is ! The smell gets into your hair. Yep! Your hair, under your skin, up your nails, everywhere! In your clothes. Mm. Glad I've finished there. Oh dear . There's something wrong with that, with that if you can't even Have you ? Still that's why you go to sleep cos it does knock you out. I find it helps me sleep in that respect. That's why I like it so much. Overnight, cos I have a proper sleep it helps cure Mm. the cold. Ah dear ! Yeah, Dan's car broke down on the way to Birmingham you know. Did it? Yeah, the erm the alternator or distributor it hadn't been wired properly, it had been rewired but not done properly. What did he do? Oh he rang the A A. Oh he's a member of the A A isn't he? I suppose his parents joined him or something,worry ! But he sat there three hours on the motorway waiting for the bloody A A man to find him and, apparently he didn't find it, couldn't find him sa cos he rang back he said, look there's no one come yet ! And apparently the one that had gone out to him hadn't found him, so they sent another one and he found him straight away with his directions . So I dunno what happened to the first one. Was he on the motorway? I'm not sure where he was actually, I think he must have been. Oh that's not very . They couldn't find somebody, I mean there's no way you can turn off it's just Yeah. The police had to tow him to a lay-by or something, or to the side cos erm it just cut out and that was it! He had no chance to pull to the side of anything . There was a a Queen concert on telly last night. Yeah. Yeah. So? Mike's not that bothered anyway cos he cos I told him, mind you, he's in Tenerife anyway, but his mum would have recorded it. Has he gone for a fortnight or a week? Got to unpack all my stuff again. Mind you, like I said, with these boxes I'll put them underneath the bed and not un bother unpacking them too much. Or swap the stuff. What a difference. My throat's raw. Raw. Is it? Is the Chloraseptic still in there? It should be. Unless it ran out. It was, near the bottom. I dunno. There's not as much as I thought there was then. I don't know. When I left I took all medicines down here you know. I got Optrex in my room but I bought that cos I used it so much. There's all, so that'll just stay there! I bought quite a few medicines actually . Mainly because I prefer to take medicine. Some people won't take medicines. You know George Mm. she's asthmatic and she won't take Ventolin. And that's bloody stupid isn't it? Well I can understand why, but the trouble is what yo what she doesn't realize she's, her if she has an asthma attack and she won't take Ventolin, she's in trouble! She's putting a strain on her heart Heart? Yeah. Yes. Cos very often asthmatics die of heart failure. Do they? Mm. If you imagine the blood's going round and you're trying to get you know Oh yeah! and then you can't. Yeah. But it's not really got to . Puts a strain on the heart. Yep. Da I mean I don't And not only that the I don't like the idea of Ventolin this is what I said to them at the hospital that I can't, cos I'm not on Yeah, I know but it's just when she's sort of having to sit down all the time. If it's a bit wheezy. Yeah. Erm it's best really to have some Ventolin Than go into an asthma attack. than have a full scale asthmatic attack. Yeah. Exactly. People die of asthma! Yeah I know they do! That's why it's a silly thing not to take it ! You know? I don't know whether she's even got any. But she probably hasn't got any if she doesn't take it. But I realize that pa taking paracetamol and things like that too often can get you too used to them and then it's a waste of time taking them. So I don't tend to take them unless I have to. Cos I haven't taken paracetamol for ages. But they're my Coproxamols Yeah. Paracetamol don't work for me. No, they're, they're wearing off on me. You know, they don't have much of an effect. I have to have something else, but I can't take aspirin you see. I just have to have stronger paracetamol. Cocodamol Mm. Oh! That's a point, I wanted to take some stronger painkillers back with me, what have you got? Just paracetamol, I haven't got anything else. Right. It's just that If you'd said yesterday you could of got some Cocodamol while you were Oh yeah! Oh I'll go out and buy some. While I'm at university. I've gotta buy erm, my prescriptions as well now haven't I? Cos I'm not under nineteen any more. Which means I have to claim my money back. Oh I don't know that you get it back. Yeah, but I have to er pay for it, and then claim it back. But I'll have to ask the doctor about that when I go for my prescriptions. Yes it's three pounds isn't it? Is it three pound forty now? Yeah. I went to the doctors to get what was it? Repeat prescription, oh yeah, my erm and erm I was snivelling a bit, and she says, are you alright? I says, yeah fine. Yeah she said, written my prescription for and she said, you sure you don't want something else? No! It's only a cold! I'm not used to doctors asking me if I want something else ! I think it's cos they're student doctors, you know, they like to prescribe as much as they can for the students ! Ask her for some Apertate for me. Yes mum! I bet she'd probably give it me as well! That's if I have the same doctor of course. It's far away from the Vale either, it's about half way between the university and the Mm. Vale the doctors is. I told you our dentist went to Birmingham didn't I? Mm. Right. I'm gonna go and have my shower. Okay? You'll have a job dear! The shower broke down about six months ago. Ah! Well it's the same shower without any water in. All I have is one wash or whatever. Kyle! Come and drink your tea. Yeah. The diary that she sent off for, for me's arrived. Did it hurt when you first got up? Well she'd know that that's, is that the one Mm. or is it the one she's still waiting for? Why hasn't it come? Well you keep saying it is. Oh I don't know about that, no. Erm I'll pick you up about four o'clock? Cos I'm not coming home at lunchtime you see. Er yeah, give me a lift . Yeah, I'm pretty sure they have. Are we down on the batteries? Got no way of getting in touch with you. No. I'm cold! Not really sleeping at all. Is that what she had, what's on today, if anything at all? Yeah Erm Bloody awkward int it now? It is innit? It's difficult. Will Tony know what there is on? Oh I dunno. He don't very often. Usually leaves it till half past three and then says oh! Meant to dash here and do so and so, and so and so! Typical ! Well Anita's in today int she? Mind, she don't finish very early on a Monday does she? Well sometimes she don't come on a Monday. Erm no leave it, I'll come on the bus. That'll . Don't like two of you coming home on the bus but, especially when it's cold and horrible! Well it should dry out later according to the weather forecast. Is it raining now? Yeah, very, very fine mist. It was like that when I took Dee yesterday. Cos I took her, but I hired the Granada and I drove her there. Definitely on the motorway in that than the stupid Mini! Oh yes! And that Mini frightened me on the motorway. Cos, she had mind you, I was it was a weekday and there was loads of lorries on Yeah. and they just pull out and they don't see me. No. You know, you're at the side of them and one starts to come around, you know, when you're doing sort of seventy and I'm at maximum speed, he's got plenty of you Yeah. know, throttle left, but I haven't! And I've just got, you know, in the Granada you just put your foot down and get past him and out the way. In the Yeah. Mini there's nowhere I can go, I'm stuck! Mm. Just waiting for the draught to come over . Do you really think I'm he absolutely hated it! ? ? Yeah. Kyle's got a funny neck! Eh? His neck's hurting him, every time he moves, his neck's hurting. Stiff neck. He's in a draught. Just saying, I've always had a funny neck haven't I? I wonder if he's inherited it? Or the Sleeping awkward. Yeah. I bet you have got a draught What does he on it. Mum where's a bottle of vinegar?. I bet you are laying with your head on one side. Well I was laying like this on top of my . Three, two, two zero down at Devon! You got plenty of books ain't you? Good Lord! Have I? Oh dear ! I got a Christmas card that's not opened! What this one? That one. down there. Oh! From Julie and David. Nice Christmas card from Julie and David just opened ! Clever dad! Don't blame me! You're the boss! And you probably had it at the time. If you go there, you can do the necessary can't you? Yeah. I tell you what then dad I'll Don't worry about it, I'll get the bus. It's easiest. Well look I'll be home here at quarter to four Mm mm. if you're still at the factory give me a ring and I'll come and fetch you. Alright? Aye. I'll give you a ring from . From Grantham? Come to Grantham to pick you up. Much as I love you, I don't love you that much ! Drink your tea Kyle. There's the unemployment, he ain't mastered that one. Nothing serious today, you should only be flying up your own arse! Bad as that today is it? Eh? Is there a lot on? Oh yeah! Oh! Well basically, what happens we wait till we get there then You never know you see. Yeah. If I get an opportunity I will ring at lunchtime. Yeah. Don't worry. I say, I'll I've got to walk the end of the street, get a bus. At twenty past or ten to. I know, but it's standing there for ages in the cold isn't it? That's what bothers me. Last time the bus waited for me. Decent bloke. After I sprinted and bloody near killed myself! Right, Kyle, you gonna get dressed? It's eight o'clock now. No. He looks just how I feel. He's not don't he just I'm ! You got your tea Tony? Not yet, no. Excuse me. Well haven't you gotta use the iron . For six months. I've got a bad back! Oh! Aha! Aha! Oh! Ha! Ah! Don't, it'll hurt if you do that dad. Ah! Aha. You haven't got sport today have you? No. Now it's wet. Oh! It hurts! It's that, ow! Or that, or that, or that. where it hurts. I wonder if you've inherited my funny neck? Why is my paper on the floor? I don't know. I'm tired! Can't go with a yawn, I'm gonna yawn with my legs! How can yawn with your legs? Hello dad! Just a stretch. Ah! Go on Oh! get yourself dressed now Kyle. Mum, I am a dying man! Ah! Ha! Ah! You will be if you don't get dressed! Ah! Ow! Can I sit down yet? Yeah. Mummy you gotta help me dress ! You can get yourself dressed. Oh! Oh! I am a dying, oh mum! I'm wearing a shirt! Kyle! You've nearly grown out of those trousers No I want them. and they're, er hardly worn. Come on, wear them for school. Well they sort of look And anyway,yo your I told you! all need ironing. I don't know why I'm wearing . Ah! I'm cold! If you're cold, get dressed! That's the idea. If this is, is a cold I can blame you! You want a vest on before that shirt! Mum it hurts! We'll just have to rub it in with Deep Heat. Every time I try to massage it you squeal! Cos I don't trust ! Willy the wimp! Come in here and like a walking stick to beat you round the head! Eh! Don't Kyle I've got a headache. some in ah! ah! I've just tried and you wouldn't let me. Go on,the, get some Deep Heat. Right . It's horrible! Did you tell Paul for the ? Er, no. That is orange juice. I know. Well I haven't got any . No! I want, I don't want that! Kyle just have one spoonful? No! Look! How badly does it hurt? If it really hurts It does! then you want to get rid of it! I don't like the taste! Well have a spoon, mouthful of tea afterwards. Here are. It don't taste ! that terrible. It tastes like Well you should have You're a wimp! I'm not a wimp! You're a wimp! Kyle, can you open your mouth so we can shove this in? Just lick that spoon off. You do. I don't want it, I don't need the Calpol Come on! I might as well die! You very soon will if you carry on like this ! Right. Okay. Oh! Eh! Aargh! Let's put a bit of Deep Heat on it then. Well you're gonna have to go, like that. It hurts on the top of my arm trying to get my arm round there . Aargh! Ha! Ha! Aargh! It's cold! And that's hurting! Ah! Ya! Ha! Aargh! Aargh! Aargh ! It's all knotted up. Aargh ! Aargh! Aargh! Aargh! Aargh ! There you are. Ah! The warmth will soon start radiating round it. Ah! Get yourself dressed now then. Have a drink of this tea. Have a drink. How can I be done with it when I'm like this? Hot! Hot! Hot! Hot! Hot! Hot! Ah! It's your blooming generation! Ow! I'm getting all ! Ow! Oh for goodness sake! But when you fall over at school you're really brave and oh it don't hurt and you don't cry and you don't need a You're nuts! Quick! Turn it off! Where's my numbers? Two Ow! Wow! Wow! Wow! Wow! Wow! Oh! Wow! Oh! Wow! Oh! Oh! Twelve. Twelve. Can you see twelve there? No? There's twelve there though. Can't see twelve on the top one, can you? No. Twenty five? No. Yeah. Ah! The bottom one. That's it. Why don't you do one, two Number ten. three, four? No ten on the bottom one. Right! Go on then! How do we win a holiday? Ah! You get all those What? marked off. So then we're trying for Greece? Trying for all of them. I'll settle for anywhere, I'm not bothered! I've lost my dad. Hello Dad! My heated rear screen's not working, why do you think it is? Pardon? My heated rear screen's not working. Switch it on there it's just not working at all. Why Well would it be. it might a cable off somewhere. A break in the actual element. Ah. It's because the catch is not on there's er one on there and that It's there on the back Yeah. on that side but it's got a little bit of black on it, do you reckon that's anything to do with it? Most probably. Look, just there. What is it? Can't see. Don't expect it is. In these glasses, that looks like a Phillips innit? I dunno. You haven't got a screwdriver in here then. No. Another one in the shop. Oh don't worry about it now. As long as know what it is I'll do it when I get home. When you get a i , a Phillips type of screwdriver Yeah. and just try tightening that one. Yeah. You reckon it's loose. Yes it is loose, that one. Is that right. You got a bad earth. As long as I know where it is. Do you see, you see how it's misted up again, well in the morning's it's absolutely murder! Oh I'll try it again. You know, I'm just gonna you might the hole's rotten. In which case I shall have to get Brett out to do it. A right murky day today! Mm. Horrible int it? Pea soup down at blooming Amberston it was! No it took me fifteen minutes tonight to get from school to Kyle's Kyle's school! Oh aye, it could do. Fifteen minutes! All those road works on the Uppingham Road. I went down one way up the other and You'll beat him. Do you know something, it's alright I'm looking at the rear screen, I think it's started working since you've pressed it, look. Is it? Yeah. You watch. It's a bad earth then. What did you do, just press that terminal there? Well I, I wriggled the main terminal, three over that side and also the other, er that side. I could have been either side that was playing you up. So what can I do about that? Just do it with that screwdriver when I get home. Yeah. Just tighten it up. If it will tighten. But don't go mad. It'll only be a self-tapping screw, you know. Just little things that keep going wrong on this car,do you know what I mean ? Well they're all the same. Little irritating things. Had a blinking headlight problem on the van. I had it for weeks and nobody done anything about it. I checked everything on that. Couldn't find a bloody problem! Went and bought a new bulb put a new bloody bulb in, still the same. Oh th , they've done the old lamp. This lamp this morning was laying over here. Oh. And er eventually Ah no, it's not working. Thought No? it was. No, it's not Eventually, it was the fuse in the fuse box, the fuse was alright Yeah. it was a contact at the fuse on the tab. Oh! I just wriggled it,, and polished it up come the lights! I thought Jesus Christ! I'd had the he , I'd had the headlights out Just for a little thing like that! and everything else! So all I'd gotta check was the fuses. And, you know, all the fuses were alright. Just about bloody . Electrics on vehicles are always the same. Look at that, a bit moisture in them as well there I think. Nine times out of ten it's always a bad earth. But the trouble is, finding the earth, which one appertains to what, you know. What time did they set off to Rotherham? Er it must have been half ten, eleven o'clock, if not later I suppose. Where's Rotherham? It's north country. North, he says. Not far off the borders. Oh! So it's a long way up then? Oh they're a fair we , it's about two hundred some odd miles I think. Oh crikey! That's it. He's gonna be back very late tonight int Yeah. he? So you're talking about thirty or I suppose that Three hours each way I suppose. They've gone in er, our car have they? They've got the Granada, yeah. They better be careful if the fog comes down. Well they got down alright this morning. I reckon it's gonna settle again tonight by the looks of it. Now the bank shuts we'll go in gotta go down to A J Hobsons, the other side of the dual carriageway. It was that, probably wasn't safe to cut across. Yeah. I'll have to go down to the roundabout and come back up. Yeah. You just couldn't see far enough. Funny pair, Gareth and Hayden aren't they? Chee! Yeah. Oh I I presume we can see down there but it don't Yeah. look too bad. Mm. It ain't too bad. Ooh! Pot hole. Yeah. I've found it. There's two there. One there, and that one here. When you got some bad weather the roads in Leicester start falling You're okay left if you go now. it's not, oh! alright. Still okay. Still okay. We're jolly well off! Okay. When's Keith coming back to do your bathroom window? Er I dunno, he's gonna erm, let us know. One Saturday morning he said I think. You have er you're not paying for that are you? No. No,. And have you paid for all the rest? Yeah. Yes! Too true! They'll be there. He's coming out, back Wednesday to put some more screws in the er roof. He's had to wait for them to come. They're special for some you know. Yeah. Has your condensation stopped yet? Well it's getting less. It's gonna be months before that's clear. Yes. I was saying to mum it Sally's was ages before theirs stopped. And then during mid-winter, I mean, it couldn't be worse could it? No. She had hers done in the spring and it was weeks and weeks before she could use it. She had to wait weeks before she could have the floored laid, you know, tiles her floor. I had to come round this way this morning to get to Whitehall It's just so chock-a-block on that new ro roadway. Try and find all different routes round, you know. That's a bad corner . Yeah. round a bit . On this road. I thought we'd got . Could you all just stop breathing now please till we get home! Look at that! Int that stupid how they've put that there! Yep! ! What are those T shirts? What they called? Oh don't know. It's got some more just er Global Global High perfection. Supercolour. Hyper Hypercolour. Hypercolour is it? I thought it was super? Hyper H I colour H a , Y P E R Got it from British Home Stores. C O L O R, O R. And it's Alright. global. Got it from British Home Stores. These are quite Well tha that's what I think i , where she got it. You should watch erm Wild Survival series, it's really good! What? Wild Survival series is very good. It's got well, erm the programmes before I'm gonna fast forward it . Well it is good but you know, I prefer matches. Yeah. Come on! All those comics and things of yours on the floor down there want moving please tonight. You've got your playroom back again so there's no excuse for things left in the lounge. Well, unless I get some it's there what that's meant to be. Well he won't be bringing them so, you might as well just put it away. Mum! So dad's gonna bri bring home those anyway. Well, ask him again. I don't think he realized that he was actually supposed to bring them. And they're not staying there indefinitely. So sort your father out. Are we having to not me, and ha you can talk to him. No, you get onto dad. Well it's your home! You're the one with the . Look! If it's just left like that I shall just take the whole lot and dump it in the dustbin! Well get onto dad! No! I need some rulers! You ask dad! I've asked him and I've,asked No you haven't! him. You mentioned it but, that's all you've done! I mentioned it this morning. And what did he say? He goes, well, well oh well. I didn't know you wanted that from the spare room. Well I did. Well, he'll have to see about the next time Kyle cos he was No it's only a couple of seconds. Look! His mummy's gonna be worried! No she won't! I would be worried if it was you. I don't care! Fast forward it a bit to the end. Just wanna see him fish , finish him off. Just get your coats on boys. Yeah. I just think this one's good. Here are Alex, here's your coat. Thank you. So it's not Million Dollar Man that wins then? No. Oh! Someone else. I will fast forward it. Cos, you know he's erm, a bit unsteady. Yeah. Right. Here are then Kyle. They're Off. they're going to interview the Macho Man it's that actually Yeah. Right. Right. Press stop. Off we go then. So it must have been in nineteen eighty nine, just after the Oh! cos, and he don't like the bell and he kept on I can't believe had the bell at the same one. Mm. Mm, he did. I think he might get . Come again? Ho get hold of the . I wonder what that bigger thing is, in the big fight. It's the one used. And then you got Everything haven't I mum? Well that's a bit daft! Fancy putting Alex in the back when Alex is the one that's gotta get out! Well never mind. I was gonna anyway. Dee dee dum, dee dum, dee dum chi, dee dum, diddle um, dum . Why have they put a little bit of fence just there? Well, so that cats and things can't get down the side and get stuck. You have your biscuits and your tea. What? You can have your biscuits and your tea while I have Yeah. my bath and you can come up and have one. Here are Kyle, here's your tea. Oh I like this song! Ooh! Int he looking old? Morning father! misty Ray. Morning! There's your tea there. Ta. Service! Oh well I know you come here before went home! Morning ! Granddad spoke to you! Hello. Dad, his father's got selective hearing. Breakfast, comics and T V, can't be bad can it? Got a terrible life you know! Mm. Awful life! Just saw a little lad going off to school, carrying half hundred weight of books! Oh! I know. Poor little devil! Do you remember when I used to have to go He must be walking up to the To up to your school. I think it's a Only a ! No, they don't have books And he go , he were and homework from our school. he walked up to the over here, so he's on his way up that side somewhere. He's being picked up to go to St. Joseph's, I bet. The bus goes from the top corner. Does it? Ah.. Move there a bit. It Er dear! We finished at 's at quarter to ten last night. Where? Adrian . 's? 's?? Well we're doing all that work for them. Oh! Over at Rugby? The Goldring Audit on Channel Four tonight, nine o'clock investigating the navy, H M S Invincible. Channel Four? Mm. Well they should take them off, only got about twenty ships left. It's on for an hour. Pick of the day. Just thought I'd told you for cos from the erm, title i , you wouldn't think it was about the navy. Oh! Goldring Audit. Would you? Something Audit? Goldring Audit. Think of Gold ring on your finger audit, when the bookkeeper comes. Talking about books, mine are about due int they? The V A T's about due again innit? But I ain't had the demand letter. Oh eck! Oh eck! She's seen Oh I don't do all that. All I, I do is the books. That's bad enough. That's bad enough! Mm. That's a weekend gone for a ball of chalk ! Talking about that, did you see that programme, I heard it on the radio actually two days ago about the fiddles the banks have been working? Mm. They've ruined more small businesses and a a overcharge I know, but but there's new legislation coming out. Twenty bloody grand one firm lost! I know. Another one was six grand. Well Peter was And er erm he was taken to the wall by the banks weren't he? It weren't erm Mm. Yeah. If he'd, if the trouble with this system apparently,thi this Why do you think we wanted to have an overdraft Wal? Why do you think we don't get in Yeah! Yeah! for the bank? God! There's this bloke his well a chum of his actually got his statement and said this can't be blinking right! Can't owe them that amount! And he worked it out, he took about three or four weeks to work it out, and he'd been overcharged on the interest like. Trouble is, how can you work it out? Well he was a We've been overcharged even on haven't we? Well he was a computer programmer so he designed his programme to to shorten the ac the system, like, you know and these have got together and now they're in business. And one of the banks even employed them to borrow, you know, to get a copy of their programme to check their own system. But it didn't say how much it cost for their services, you know. Ya. But th they are, they're no , they're gonna make a bomb out of it! Yeah, one firm six six grand they done him out of Yeah. and er, he was foreclosed for two. Mm. In other words, if they hadn't got him with the six he'd never have gone bloody broke! Gone broke , yeah. Yeah. Mm. Well Peter had a deal with the bank right, that they were gonna get so much money up Yeah. gives him an overdraft facility of so much money enable him to work when he moved, and they reneged on it! Reneged on it? Yeah. And left him short and then when he had those bad debts Yeah. they just said, you know, no more! Yeah. Although he insisted right, that they did this, that, and the other and he followed their instructions to the letter Mm. he found himself deep in the shit! Mm. That's why he's so bloody anti banks! And if ever there's tuppence too much on the bloody account he's on the blower! Mm. Well according to, these blokes said, the only safe way of getting er money on overdraft is to go through a German bank. It's cheaper much more understanding and easier to put money up front. He always likes to do it their way. Oh! Our bank's gonna go out of space! The British ,Bri , British bank are gonna take a dive! They will! If you got any money in the bank, get it out! There'll be a run on a British banks like no tomorrow! You know that five P, can I have it back then ! Well we haven't got any worries, er, we ain't got no money in the bank ! Yeah. Right Kyle because it's gone eight go to bed! One of the best banks is is er the Scottish innit? I got your tea here. Mm. Oh! That's who erm Wendy banks with int it, Bank of Scotland? They're one of the best. Bank of Ireland Wendy uses, Allied Irish. Mm. Why does she use Irish? Cos they always give you the best deal. And often, the Irish will take you on where other banks won't. Yeah. Ah! Well! Not that I have a lot to worry about. Ooh dad! Yes? Is Anita in today? Would I need to give you a lift home do you think? Yeah don't worry don't worry, cos if Anita's coming in later I'll ask one of them. She normally comes about four o'clock on a Thursday. No problem. No problem darling. Well it's shopping night. I mean, I'll Yeah. come and get you then do No. my shopping after if No. you like? No, no, no. You do your shopping. I shan't be left. See you. Got a man over there doing sod all! Night! Well I don't know why if you don't do you? Well then, I've never used them much . Yeah well I, well don't, wouldn't worry about it. Well that, I'm not abroad you know, I'm only . Yeah I know. In this weather I don't like you Say bye-bye to granddad. Ta-ta ! Night. Be a good lad. Alright. I'll see you then dad. Have you heard from Dee? No, not yet. Not yet? No. She hasn't wrote to you then? No. Right! Come on then please. Oh! What was that? Mum? What was that? Gargling with T C P. Sixteen No, the post office isn't open now. It's seven o'clock. Ooh! I better leave this pools money out. Yeah. If we win it. Oh switch this light on for me again because the pools lady won't be able to see. What? The pools lady won't be able to see it if I don't leave the light on. Switch the light on? Can you pick that one up for me then? There. Look inside. Ooh! I haven't got my money to pay her! I think your door's undone. Come on car! Don't stop playing on me now when I get home for a cup of tea! Oh!. Ah! You found ? What's that? to the bag. Oh never mind. Was Oh! it good? Yeah! He gets brain damage nearly. Oh! He neck starts to open. Said he gets brain damage,I said quite literally ! Nearly. Yeah I know. Someone picks him up like that then bends him over Well you should have turned heating on! Oh! No, I'm not cold in here. I meant cold Oh right! so he's up in the air and they do this. Mm. You do this. Nanny! And he flew over there and he landed on a metal chair. Do you know Tony and Jackie on the P T A? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, Kyle goes to Cubs with Robin. I pick Oh! him up. Yeah, Laura's in Robin's class. Oh! So er, anyway, I er I've done this thing today, I've to come up with, I'll do this afternoon. I'm quite proud of it! What do you do Dudley Allen then? What the school? Yeah. Do you No I'm , I'm only on the P T A. You're just That's it. on the P T A? You don't actually work I work at the erm I know you work at Crown Hills don't you? Yeah. And teach the They've got erm pilot scheme teaching the kids to drive haven't they? Yeah they said they have. Seems like erm a good idea actually. Yeah. Keeps them off the streets doesn't it? Yeah! I've been talking to some of them about it, it's meant to be, cos I didn't know it was going on, and I saw them in the paper, says oh! I saw you in the paper! Did you see me as well miss? Oh! Oh! Cos sometimes, some take a good picture and you know straight away the kids Mm. and others can, you know sit and stare at it for an hour still wouldn't know who it was. That bird's really having a go int it ? Oh he's comical He he is! He has us in fits and the funny thing was we were sat listening to him the other night, all having us dinner, we're sat at table and it was ever so quiet listening to him and he sort of erm he mimics the other bird Yeah. he doesn't actually say, well he does say the odd word if you listen carefully, of his own Mm. but other than that he mimics everything this one does, but cos it's in a softer tone than when Cork does it, he sounds quite funny. It's nice actually. They're company for each other aren't they? Mm, yeah. I think And they when we're out, you know when there's nobody here Mm. like when we're all sitting in the front room at night and then they sa I think they chirp away to each other quite happily, you know. Ah ah! He don't know what to play with next, his mirror or his swing. I know. Dashing from one to the other. That mirror goes through it! It's a nice But erm cage that is int it? Yeah, it was er a bargain that was! It was erm Addams on Uppingham Road. Mm. Well, the one in town closed down you know, next to Lewis's? Oh yeah. And so they had the stuff from there that wasn't that hadn't sold and Mm. took it down to that shop and er, it was, I got it from there and it was ten pound! Good God! So, well say, I did, Lovell did. I didn't even realize the one in town had gone till the other day . Didn't you? I thought Addams had gone Did you? I know! And I went round town on Saturday and I'd gone more or less from work as well so I'd got my big bag with me and ooh my shoulder! I mean, we're in town Oh! for a couple of hours. Shoulder were killing me! So when I went, I had to go again on Monday I took just my purse in my pocket and thought oh this is bit, cos I mean I knew what I was going for, you know, weren't looking round for anything in particular and I thought this is bit risky! So I nipped in and bought one of them little tiny bag, I've never had tiny bag before. And er, ooh I love it! Every time I go out now I keep chucking this little bag over my shoulder Oh! it's great, you know ! So used to having a great big thing, I am. Yeah. I think the bigger bag you put, the more you su rubbish Rubbi Oh! you put in it. The bag I used to use for work when I was a hired help, oh my God! Mm! And you get a different one and you think next time I'll have one a bit bigger, you know, and then, next time one a bit bigger still Yeah. That one weren't big enough, I couldn't get everything in it. Yeah. And so , you just keep getting You end up Now I like a horse's nose bag over your shoulder Yeah! don't Now I've erm changed my job I just take my ordinary handbag. Mm. Mind you , I've gonna wear that out now, my leather bag aren't I? Need another one. Well I got that one. That's the little one I bought. Yeah! That's nice. And it was four ninety nine from a shoe firm. I thought, that's ideal just for That's leather int it? Yeah! It is leather. See. Ideal for just walking round town. Oh! That's great! Four ninety nine? Yeah! Ooh! I'll have to have a look in there. But they were all funny prices, some had got eight ninety nine on, and some had got four ninety nine, and I, couldn't see the difference. I couldn't figure out which were and when the girl er, you know, when, when I took it to the counter she she said, ooh this is good value for four ninety nine ! Int it leather? Ooh! You know, I said yeah! I mean it's got a sticker on it, genuine leather. I think they've either been priced wrong or somebody had Mm. I think somebody had sort of started pricing them and then somebody else had probably took over and they ended up with the wrong price on but I didn't mind! Well , you weren't gonna argue the toss! No. I got a dress in Marks's this week before last, seven ninety nine reduced from twenty nine ninety Oh! nine. Usually have a good sale though don't they? They don't Yeah. It was the only one. Apparently it was some of the summer stock left. You know, it's that floppy Viscose? Mm mm. You know? Yeah. And it's, burgundy with cream spots button down front and then, sort of pleat starting from just below the waist. Oh that sounds nice! And fitted , you know? Yeah. Seven ninety nine! Yeah. I couldn't believe it! My size! I got some sko some skirts last year from there my mum did, you know, she were quite pleased with them cos usually they're quite aren't they? I love Marks's sale! Yeah. I am, it's not a shop I go in very often. I'm I'm not a Marks's or Lewis's, anything like that, I er er Oh I'm just Marks's. I just like, I like the Marks's. Yeah. No I'm not, I'm not very but, when I do go in I have a sort of look round and the prices usually Mm. astonish me! And erm I find I get more value for my money though, cos it lasts me longer. The stuff I buy from Marks's is always good quality. Yeah. I don't like buying kid's They last longer. clothes from there. Because I think tha i I don't like anything that lasts long on kids. If yo if you understand what I mean. I'd rather Yeah. them wear it out I'd rather it Yeah. wear out and me throw it away than it still be good and don't know what to do with it, you know, you're thinking Yeah oh this is still too good to put in the rag bag basically, you know, that sort of. I'd rather have it Oh I've got loads of people I pass stuff on to. Yeah. Well I I mean do if I've got anything, but I find half the time, I mean, it's like jeans and things, if you go into Marks's you can spend fifteen pound on a Oh! I never buy I never buy for him in Marks's. No. Kids' jeans fifteen pound! And they I tell you what I do for jeans, I get them from car boot sales now! Yeah. Well I've been, I've just bought, I bought some on Monday for Laura and I got them from Rascals. Now they were only one pair were er, eleven ninety nine, and one pair, well I mean she is ten now one pair were eleven ninety nine, and one pair were thirteen ninety nine I think, but then we've got ten percent off so that weren't too bad. And then one pair were, didn't fit right when she got them home, so, I've took them back and, got another pair. And I've also saw some in there for Danny as well, and they were only seven ninety nine. Well I pay that anywhere for Danny's. The black jeans. Yeah. So I thought that were quite good really. Mm! Being a shop like that, cos that's usually, well can be dear in there. But normally I get them off the market. Where is Rascals? It's in the arcade. You know in one of the arcades? Oh I know! They do all the page boy outfits and things in there? Is that it? Erm I don't know, they could do. I've never really looked at that side of it, you know, so I don't really know. But they most probably do. I think that's where his page boy outfit come from. Corner of Street in the arcade? Is it that one? No it's not on the corner, it's further in. Oh I know! You know the Swiss Cottage, opposite there. Yeah. That's where it is. I know! Yeah. But, as I say, again, it's not a shop I often go in. I mean I they've got a, a stall on the market, I've seen something on the market on that stall, but they've not got it in their size and they'll say to you, ooh, go over to the shop, you know, and you go over Mm. to the shop and then you find more things you like when you're in there. Mm. But it's not, normally, a shop I just go to. It's usually from the market stall, when I get sent over there. Cos I like the market, I really do. The only thing I dislike it for, you can never find the same stall if you've got to take anything back. Back, yeah. That's it, it's when you come to take stuff back int it, the market? I got a, good buy for him on that coat he's wearing, got it in Benny's. Mm. I'd never been in there before but Oh it's cheap! but it's good! Yeah! Yeah! And er, it's Cam Campri. Yeah. And it Oh I thought you said Campari was thirty six quid what you Yeah! said. and er, it was thirty six pound, but she knocked another three pound off cos there was a little mark on the front which just sponged off as soon as I got home. Mm mm! That's the way to do it! We were thrilled with it, you know. Well, considering there's not supposed to be any V A T on kid's things, I mean Phworgh! God! only the price of the adult ones aren't they? Yeah. I mean, it's like the jeans, I say, for Laura I paid fourteen ninety nine for a pair there, and eleven ninety nine for the other pair, well I've been and got myself two pair cos I mean, it's more or less all I wear just a, a couple of weeks before, and I'd only paid twelve ninety nine a pair for my own! Mm! So I mean, I had actually paid more for hers er, than, you know. Well I think they're so, my own I don't mind paying a bit more for really, because they're so last me such a long while. Yeah. I wear them day in, day out, you know. I mean, I I've got like five pair at the moment. Some what I call are comfy ones, some that I can't breathe in, you know! My going out ones . Oh I can't wear jeans now. When I've lost weight. There's a Weightwatchers opened in the school. Oh! Oh I know , I went the first night. Did you? Yeah. Any good? Well I only,th I mean the woman made me feel dead small because I said to her you know, she was asking everybody why they'd come and I said, well I've only come to give Chris moral support, which was the truth because until about three hours before we went, I didn't even know it was there Mm. and she rang up and said that she wanted to go and would I go with her? And I said yes, you see. Of course, the woman said why do you come? So I says, well I've come for Chris really. So she said, oh they all say that! And she made me feel about two inches high Yeah. you know! Are you going again? Well I didn't go, no, cos Chris int going, so I didn't bother going but I must admit, I mean, when she gave me the papers and what have you that goes with it, I come home, I put it in the cupboard and I've not even looked at it since. Mm. Three pound eighty int it? Yeah. But the re th the actual thing's free. Mm. The erm Registration. Yeah. It's supposed to be eight pound or something Mm. normally. I'm trying to diet on my own. Well I've been doing it for a In fact fortnight. I mean it's okay like if you're getting weighed with other people, and yes, it's quite nice and you've got the encouragement and everything, but when all's said and done, dieting dieting is all down to willpower. It don't matter how much I know. at any class, you can't buy that. No. It's all down to yourself. I'm not into dieting, I'm into food. Oh I'm into food all the time! Trouble is, I got three dinner parties coming up, you know, well out Yeah. for dinner and dinner parties so I'm sort of frantically trying to cut down , and then, you know, one dinner party and then I put it And then eat, yeah, that's it. straight back on again! Yeah. What do you do, cut out your social life, you know? Well that's what the argument's always been int it? You know, I mean even at these diet clubs, oh well, you know don't stop going out just eat what you, but if you go out and you're eating sweets for you know, after your dinner Mm. you have a sweet and all that sort of thing, I mean you can't I can't resist them if I go out for a meal, I've got to have the sweet, I'd rather have the sweet Mm. than the main! Yeah. I mean th the starters I'm never too fussy about. I can take or leave that but I do like the main course, I do like Depends on the starter, if it's a nice, a special starter then, ooh! I want it! You know, but No , I'm never no they don't bother me. They often put me off my meal. But erm sweets, I could eat well mine and somebody else's ! If I put my mind to it, you know! If they're, if they're nice ones, yeah. Yeah. If they're nice ones. Yeah, just the nice ones. I mean, cheesecake! Ah! Ooh yeah! Especially when it's a homemade one. Mm. I mean, crumble, I like crumble. I've just stopped baking cos I'm dieting, I have Yeah. stopped baking! Well I must admit, I have, I mean I don't do well I used to make quite nice cakes, since I've had this new cooker mine won't ri I mean they rise, there's no doubt about that, they rise, but I can take them out, put them on a cooling rack and watch them deflate! Deflate. Oh! You know ! They just Sickening! go down and well that irritates me, so I've so I've give up that. The only thing I can make is my normal, what I call a family fruit cake, which is very simple and quick i well not quick really but, I usually have it on when the Sunday roast's doing so but erm and that's about it, you know. They rai they do fine but I can't resist it, once I've made it I can't resist it. I love it when it's warm! Ah! Oh yeah! Ooh! I tell you, I just, I just started to . There we go. Have you noticed I've done it with Loving Care? Not Your colour? I, I Yeah. thought, yeah, I thought it looked a nice colour, it does look, you know, it does look nice and shiny and It's been done, it's been done about two weeks and it's now. er And it gave it some condition, you know, when I Yeah. did it with that. So er It looks much better a bit shorter, it's got much more shape to it. It looks Yeah. nice, yeah. It'd just grown out that, I knew Yeah. you know, the last Yeah. week or so, it just got that bit I mean, the side bits look nice heavier cos it's it gives you that it goes up that way. Yeah. Instead of just coming down It does. in a V shape Yeah. it goes up that way. I need it to go up that way That's right. it just suits Yeah. me better. Thanks ever so much Julie for cutting it. Alright. twenty two. No, I'll er prefer to go this way. Ooh yeah! Well I prefer it . Oh! Aren't you good? No just that he was you know, just a bit concerned that's the logo thing and I thought well what does it look like? I know it's a black raven on the thing and the written over the top of it. The only thing is i it would have been nicer if it had of printed. I mean that sort of yo er yo er, although, really you want them to see that cos they know what it's about then, then they'll read that, but, it would have been nice if that had of been darker Yeah. like this, but that, I'd done, you know, you could do on the typewriter and that so No. That's brilliant! Well I thought that was quite good. Well it's eye-catching isn't Mm! it? It's what you want. Just coloured in quick. I mean, it'll be a photocopied finally Oh I had to learn how to use that photocopier, ooh and a and, oh my giddy aunt! Oh well, it's all experience int it? She reckons she's gonna teach me computers. Great stuff! We'll see! Well, we're just trying to get ours to work tonight, it's broke down. What the computer? The , mm. Er, I think it's the, the lead you know, that goes from the computer Oh yeah! to the plug? You tried wiggling it about? Yeah. Could be two ends broken and and then it, yeah. And then it, so Mick took Oh well then. it to pieces and, see if he can, of course it's one of them that you can't put back together, like Oh! moulded on aren't they? Yeah. You gotta buy a new lead haven't Yeah. you? So he's gonna get one of them really. That's a lot of money! Tt! Lucky anyway. It's always something innit ! Well, that's it! Right! See you in a few weeks again. Okay then. Yeah. Thanks ever so much Julie! Alright then. Bye! Bye! Thank you. Got your comic? Yep. You've been ever so, ever so noisy you have! Ooh yeah! Ain't he been noisy ? Definitely! See you Julie! Okay. Ta-ta! Bye! Beige and brown mottled. Mm. Which I think would go out there. Mm. So I, I, I said I'd ring him back and, I, this bloke's supposed to be here before one he'd got half hour to turn up if he's not here at one I'm gonna ring this other one and tell him he can do it. He only lives at Wigston anyway. Er, that's not bad two hundred and thirty seven fully fitted and everything Mm. and yeah, your plumber's not been. I've been here all morning. I had a frantic clean round this morning in case he come! Yeah. Have you rung Keith or Ke Tony dear? No. rung Keith and Keith said he didn't know whether he'd be able to come today but he'd do his best. But we're going away well I am coming home tonight now. You know we're going to Nottingham to a party? Are you? Yeah, we're going to party in Nottingham tonight. Taking Kyle? Mm. Oh! And we were gonna stay the night but Gary's got his mum staying as well and he sa he says, you know, if you stay can you bring some bedding and that? And, I said, well we won't stay Gary cos co Tony's gotta go to work early in the morning and er I won't drink and I'll drive home. So you're driving back from Nottingham Mm. tonight? It only takes us three quarters of an hour. Mm. In the Granada? Oh ! If I have two glasses of wine, cos I'm dieting anyway so Two ,!all bloody all morning waiting for this sodding man! And he still ain't come! Well so he sa could still turn up this afternoon this man then? See Keith was supposed to be coming Wednesday to do a couple of little bits, finish off this conservatory, he's finished but he says there's one or two bits he wanted to do. And he's had all his money now, we've paid him. And he didn't turn up Wednesday, I sat here all bloody day Wednesday and he didn't turn up! So I get sick of sitting here waiting for people to For tradesmen. come ! Mm. You sure you don't want a couple of ? I would dearly love one, but don't keep tempting me ! Well have one lump. I better not mum. I'm really sorry then. Oh ! Oh! I'm not buying anything nice, we're just knee deep in fruit and veg! I know what it's like, you know. It's li I wo ke I won't keep on ! Oh nanny used to da it was nanny's birthday Wednesday did you I know. Mm. Yeah I did know. I did say happy birthday to her. I sang it all day long! And I was here all on my own, I kept singing it! I thought, if she could hear she thinks I'm bloody crackers ! Have you had enough of this have you? Well I can't get any more off that apple! Do you want an orange? I don't feel hungry it's just a psychological thing when you're dieting isn't it, that you, you feel that I say, an orange is not fattening. in case you're gonna be hungry you think well I'll just have so and so and then it's Mm. it's the wrong thing to do really. I got some erm er wheaty biscuits, you know, diety, wheaty I've had, I've had two slices of wholemeal bread Oh yeah. with Gold and Marmite on, and an apple. Yeah. And it's all I normally have and I'm not hungry in the Ah well. afternoons. If I have a cup of coffee I'm okay. Can you get rid of that for me? Ta. Yep! Let me just check her wages. Did you wha Put er, put er pay it into the bank for her now. Is her bank book all upstairs then? No I don't think so, no. She's gonna have to claim tax back. She knows that though don't she? She owes me two quid of this money. You'll have to er get hold of a tax form or something. That's a funny wage slip! Innit? Pay advice. A hundred and forty five sixty two? Good morning. Good morning to you. What happened to sunshine? I don't know. You might have arranged it better. How many lifeboats are you going to land on today sir? Well we're going to have two. We have this one and then we're going further south and operate with the other, the second one. What happens now, now that you are winched down? Well the aircraft, simply do an orbit, come back around, back into wind and then come winching in under my directions using hand signals. Th the only thing I mentioned to the crew is to be aware of static, there's a lot of static electricity at the moment. So er just er let me handle that. Okay? Yes, thank you. Kieran , winch man on the Sumburgh coastguard helicopter, and the rest of the duty crew that morning were winch operator Terry , pilot Norman and copilot Tim . The honourary medical officer of the Longhope lifeboat is Dr Tony , and he would normally be assisting casualties to be uplifted, but that day he himself was to be winched up from the lifeboat to the helicopter, and once that part of the exercise was completed and he was back, safely on deck, I asked him, How was that? That was great. Absolutely You enjoyed it? lovely, it was a bit of an anticlimax I thought. I mean I thought I'd be absolutely frightened out of my mind but erm no. I think you just have a philosophical attitude, if they're going to drop you, they drop you and that's that's What did he mean when he's saying the static? Static electricity. Yeah. Well it's like getting out of a car on a hot day and putting your putting your hand on the door, I think. But I didn't feel anything. The only thing was noise. Have you done it before? I was involved a few years ago in the in the Lance, the rescue er That the lance went ashore on Hoy and er the helicopter there took the casualties of the Lance and dropped Yeah. them onto the lifeboat. Was that a soft landing you had back there ? No , I got a very sore Yes. Dr Tony , honourary medical officer. Once the exercise was completed satisfactorily, the coastguard helicopter duly saluted us and flew of at speed to rendezvous with the Stromness lifeboat. The Longhope boat, the David and Elizabeth King, E B, is a solent class self righting lifeboat and has been on station since nineteen seventy. Once she was safely winched back up the slipway into the lifeboat shed, I spoke to some of the crew. Firstly, Jack , coxswain, since nineteen seventy. Are you going to be sorry to see that boat go? Och well you have to shift with the times, and the new boat which is much faster will be a great help. Have you been out with the helicopter before? Yes, quite often. We've been exercises , this is the third exercise with the helicopter. When was the last called out? Not on exercise with the helicopter? That'll have been the trawler run ashore on on er Pearworth Gareth and we were all come ashore on but it wasn't er . I think that'll been the last helicopter. Have you worked with that helicopter that was on exercise today? Well er everything, Navy helicopter from Lossiemouth, we were out with The big Seakings? Seakings. We're were out with before. Yes, we're never out on an exercise with the Jackie , coxswain of the Longhope lifeboat, who was awarded the R N L Is bronze medal for gallantry for his part in the rescue of the crew of the Ross Turn from the Taft Tail of Swona in nineteen seventy three. The new Longhope lifeboat will be a forty seven foot tyne class, fast slipway launch. She'll be a tonne lighter in weight but very much faster. I asked the mechanic, Ian , who'd looked after the David and Elizabeth King, if he'd regret seeing her go? No I'm I'm really looking forward to getting the new lifeboat, because I think it'll be a great advantage from the station here. At least we'll have a lot of speed, The show a big advantage and a bigger speed, er out here. Have you had any problems with this one over the years? Oh none at all. It's gone like a dream, it's er I've had no major problems with it at all. It's just been a good boat to us. Really. But you are going to be sorry to see that one go because you've looked after her for so long. Ah yes I have looked after it for ever since it was new and er and it was the one that reopened the station after the boat's lost here, but as I say you've got to look forward and I think it's a good idea to to have a new boat here. Cos it's a good young crew, and everybody's pretty enthusiastic. Ian , mechanic. Billy has also been in the crew since the David and Elizabeth King came on station. And I asked him about that particular morning's exercise with the coastguard helicopter. Well it's like what most exercises are, it seems like a lot of nonsense but actually when it comes to the crunch, you actually know what's going to happen, you know the the procedures and everything like that. So that it's it it has certainly got a lot of value an exercise like that, even with entirely good conditions. How many exercises have you done with the Sumburgh coastguard before? Oh we've done two or three, we usually do one Well er I wouldn't regularly but probably one every year or you ken something like that. Today it was winching. That's just what they usually do for an exercise, there's no much You cannot actually simulate an actual rescue so that's the best you can do. But the conditions today weren't exactly calm anyway so it was a pretty fair exercise. Well I suppose but er you can imagine a lot worse than that. Billy . And the rest of the crew that morning were Billy , second coxswain, John , assistant mechanic, Jimmy and Vincent . Also Angus , who was the youngest on board that day. Well I'm not actually signed up but I'm going to start signing up now as a crew member. I just go out on exercises now and again, fill in for somebody. You have a relative though, already on the crew? Yeah, dad, he's the coxswain. And I also have a brother that's on the crew. Have your family always been involved with the lifeboat? As far as I've been told and remember, Dad's always been on the boat, yeah. Different boat. Will you going to on the new one? Will you be here when it comes, do you think? Yeah. By that time hopefully I'll be signed up as a crew member. Angus . And my thanks to all connected with the Longhope lifeboat, for my day out. I spoke later to Jackie , lifeboat secretary, and asked him how many of a crew he had to call on at any time. We now have fifteen men who have past the medical exam and the board of trade eyesight test and are now fully enrolled lifeboat crew. There is one or two not quite completed training yet. There's a great family tradition, obviously, in Longhope as there must be in every Orkney and Shetland lifeboat . Oh yeah, yeah. Yeah the the crew seems to evolve. The the father would be on the boat, and the son would, as a young boy, would come to meet the workers that came back and he begins to help with the ropes and the winching up of the boat and the washing down, and so on, of the boat after she's been on service, and so on . And as the years go by and the father retires the son comes on to the boat, so it is really a very family thing, the lifeboat service. What particular memories have you got of this lifeboat? My memories of this boat would be mainly the the big rescue she did and the Taft Tail of swanal Aberdeen trawler Ross Turn. Was ashore in a cleft among the rocks there and the the lifeboat had to turn in a position that was just about twice her own length. The crew were all clinging on to the side of the trawler and the last men off, Billy and John took 'em They got hold of them by one leg and they pulled them off. And the lifeboat was able to turn and to get safely back out again. Which was really quite a rescue. I out there the next day and all that was showing above the water was the mast. Wee bit at the top of the mast of the trawler. She has sunk by that time. My earliest memory of rescued people being landed by the lifeboat would be in the nineteen thirties, see. Going down with my dad who had been president of the lifeboat here for about fifty years, to meet the lifeboat as come in with survivors, I was just a wee boy at the time but I remember the Icelandic trawler, the Geyser and one of the first to be put ashore off the lifeboat that night, was a wee lassie, and she came across the pier and she came to me, because I was the only kid down there that night. And er maybe about five six years ago, a parcel of blankets came from Iceland for the Longhope lifeboat, from this same woman, and there had been no contact whatsoever between the time she was rescued and then, which was amazing. Have you heard from her since then? Never never heard from her at all since then. But it is the R N L I it's something like a huge club because er go where you like, you're always received well among the fishermen and the shipping people. And so I've quite often been in Stromness and somebody said to me, how are you getting home tonight? You see? As much as to say, well if you need a lift home, just let me know. So it is It's a marvellous thing really, the R N L I. The press release that I I put erm to the internationally known bearings company. Right er Which you secretary seemed to think was okay for that one. Yes it should be shouldn't it Jane? As opposed as opposed to oblique. Well yeah yeah. Yes Right. As opposed to oblique. Okay I think what Erm I'll do in that case is hold this press release because you may want to change it again a little bit. Er yes. Yeah yeah. Well erm what what does holding it involve? Telling them not to post it tomorrow. Not to post it tomorrow. Right okay . Yeah, I mean that's not going to miss us a particular slot in the in the publication . Oh no no. No not at all. I look if I can do that now, I can save erm Right. I can save her photocopying it. Right. Erm Yes that would be a good idea wouldn't it. What would I do without these things I don't know. I've I've got an appointment in London at five o'clock so I've got to leave here at about quarter to three. Right. To get the the three o'clock train. No problem. Yeah. If you'd like to just have a look through that, is that paragraph where I put a line Yeah. Hello? Chris? Chris? Er Rosie the the press release number six that I've given to Sandra, will you tell her to hold it please and not to send it out tomorrow. Yeah. Okay. Sorry? No no to do nothing with it. Yeah, I'll sort it out tomorrow morning. Alright, bye. Good. Just there is a little bit that I want to add that erm that teachers get free admission. Ah right. Good. But does that paragraph Yeah I I think in principle that that Yeah. that's er that's fine erm Yeah. er the internationally known bearings company. Er er what should we what have we been u have we been using any particular sort of of form of words Jane? No. For that? Because actually isn't internationally known. It's the that's internationally known and the 's internationally known Yes yes. but the fusion of the two is not . I think I I I don't think we're in treason of the truth . I No I think it's probably that's probably about as you're going to get anyway . Yes yes. Er e erm. I think that'll be okay. Yeah. Yeah. I think that'll be okay . And then what we will do, later on we shall do another press release which will talk more about the Exactly exactly what's erm gonna happen. Right. Erm to persuade some of the nine hundred schools to reply to us. Right. Yes Good. We've got twenty five schools taking part at the moment. They're already committed to too They're already committed which is quite good in January . Right. Cos we'd got I think, about twelve last year at this time. Erm Now what we want to talk about if I can Well you tell me what you want to know I think that's the best . I I think what what I wanted to put some more meat on the basic idea so that Yeah. our factory colleagues, and Jane as far as the erm preparation of of er any equipment and so on is concerned Yes. can actually start thinking about what what we're actually going to do. Yeah yeah. So er because there will be certain input from the factories. Erm David's Newark erm Road based Yes. er and and erm e erm Eric's erm Road based Yeah. so we've got the two Newark factories represented. Yes. Er and Jane looks after all the publicity er er preparations and that sort of thing so Good good. so that really it's to try and er get us thinking about what we could do Yes yes. because there may be initiatives that can come from the factories er which would bring the thing alive also for local Yes yeah. people in some way. So erm Philip could you could you just begin by putting a bit more meat on o on what the competition how the competition is envisaged to work . Yes yes I will. Let me tell you about the schools involved in the show anyway. Er the Nottinghamshire branch of the of the National Farmer's Union are the instigators of the children of the show. And they together with who are animal feed stuff and and and corn and fertilizer people, erm organized the marquis and generally do the groundwork that gets the kids there. Erm and they sponsor that, sponsor the marquis and so does the N F U. Erm now within the marquis there are lots of exhibits that are of educational value. I mean it may well be there's a there's a lamb, there may be a calf. Erm there'll be someone talking about cereal production, there'll be someone talking about milk production, this sort of thing. Now within that marquis you can have a table. Erm now if you wanted to go larger I say a table because of the size of the marquis and what the Yeah. This is what National Grid did last year. If you wanted to have something erm larger than that then I'm e I am empowered to say you can have a trade stand at half price. Right yeah yeah. Now what I'm really looking at there is that our basic trade stand space i is about a hundred pound. Erm there's no reason why you shouldn't have double that size the the the basic one is three metres square. Now I didn't know whether you've got an exhibition unit or something? Er well we have we have all sorts of exhibition Yeah you'd better have a mobile unit er things that we that erm Well Right, David, you've got a a an input there because we've done a project with the erm er p with a technical college here. Er for a mobile a mobile unit. Mhm exhibition caravan. Exhibition Caravan. er caravan. Yeah. Trailer Yes. Yes. it is actually isn't it? Trailer yeah. Trailer yeah. Yeah. Erm and it would be appropriate I guess to to use that. But that probably wouldn't be inside the tent would it? Well it wouldn't matter because you see, the treasure hunt takes the kids all around the show ground. Right. Now the idea and collect a piece of treasure, a ball bearing. From. Or or out of the reject box. Yes yeah yeah Yes. I think we could probably find plenty of them. surplus stocks. talking of rejects I was I was conned into going down to Stoke yesterday to look at the Portmeirion seconds shop. Ah but this is great, and everything is nice and cheap there, I came away paying two hundred and forty pounds what we bought. Now that you see so it might be an idea If you have your table within the marquis, that does whatever you want it to do, that can talk to kids if they want and so forth, you see they they're sort of juniors upwards . Yes. Erm and then you could have your trade stand where they've got to come and collect something and answer a question. Mhm. Now the quiz will be erm what was our I mean if there's a history of the firm what did what did used to be called or something. Something that you've got on display where they could just read it, pick the answer out. Yeah. And they put their answer on their form. they pick their bit of treasure up, whatever it is? I mean National Grid gave them a bit of cable. They chopped a lot of cable into one inch pieces you see and just gave a bit of this out. Yeah. It's a nonsensical bit of treasure but they've gotta Yeah. come back with a bit of treasure and the answer. Right. Then then then the winner of course is the one that takes the money. Erm now that sounds to me to be the best way of doing. Wh what we do you see, they have to wander around the showground doing this, so we get our traffic through the showground and they see other things while they're going around. As opposed just going Mm. Mhm. Mhm. into a marquis and having it all laid on for Mhm. them in there. Erm now if if we have if we have our er erm caravan and we have the table in the in the tent, they can Yeah. obviously be at opposite opposite ends or different different places so there's plenty of space between them . Absolutely. Oh yes yeah. We wouldn't put the caravan next to the tent. Right. Er are those Er w would would the would the er treasure hunt just involve visiting that, or or Ooh no about twenty about twenty others. So so Yeah. what do we do? Pick particular stands or pick Erm we select the stands where the treasure's going to be because some Right. of the treasure might be our treasure or N F U treasure and so right I see. Yes. we'll put this treasure on this stand. Yeah right, I see. Erm so unless anyone is sponsoring, they wouldn't necessarily have the treasure on their stand. We'd select other stand holders. And what we'd do, we'd go to say , the farm machinery people and say Yeah. Right will will you take part in the treasure hunt. Will you give a nut and bolt or something. Or or whatever something that they've Right. Yeah yeah. got low on their stock. Yeah. Erm costings if you like that they Yeah. can give away. Yeah. Erm the blacksmith and we give them a horseshoe nail. Yeah. this sort of thing. But they Right. come back with it and we we give them a carrier bag erm to carry all the stuff in. Right. And them they come back. Erm And if you've got any goodies you want to dish out to them it helps . Well well we'll provide the carrier bags. Yeah. Won't we, carrier bags. You have some of those have you? We have them we have them yeah. Er and er we could provide as as treasure, Yeah. we could provide steel balls in profu profusion out of the Yeah. as out of assembly rejects. Mhm. Er and I should think we could supply rollers on the same basis couldn't we? Er and It it would need to be either one or the other I think. Well I mean these could be these could be collected from somebody else somewhere else. Yes yes of course. Yeah yeah . Er so I mean that c because er I mean they the steel balls and steel rollers go into the bin I mean they can't be used for anything . Well that's right. Well yes, absolutely. Yeah yeah. So er and and they're quite I mean if nobody's ever seen a er erm Yeah. a good quality steel ball before, they're quite nice things to have and they Yeah. feel soft. Right. Yes. Erm we could certainly do that. Yeah. Erm Of a size that Well of a reasonable a re Yes I mean they won't be so small you can hardly see them Yes quite quite. And they won't be s so large as you can't carry them . Erm I just wonder also whether er we could possibly out of our erm surplus or dead stock, provide some er some small complete bearings. How many how many are we looking for? How many are we expecting to take part? We don't know, last year it was about four hundred, four or five hundred. So we'd need beginning to get a bit more bu But but in terms of showing people what. Y yes. Yes that's true . I think steel balls are But you see you can do a display on your table can't you But i but i but in terms of showing people what bearings actually are, Yeah. there's nothing like a complete bearing. No that's right. No. Because what the tendency is that people feel that that bearings when when you say a bearing, you mean a steel ball. And of course Yeah. Yes yes as opposed to the ball race Er I mean, what we want to be getting them to think about is the complete Yes yes. unit. So I think we might make an effort Yeah. to try to provide erm We we it's it's always difficult in January to say how many people are going to be there to take part, but we last year it was about about five hundred I think. Erm so we ou and carrier bags, we may have enough to carry us through the show, I don't know. But certainly I mean, if you have carrier bags, you can give them I I would like to do that. You can give them away anyway Yes. there's no problem. Yes. Er er erm and if we can if if they can all use is it Yeah. then that's further I mean if there's a leaflet you can put in them as well, fair enough. Make that be your goody bag of whatever. Yeah. Erm there's no problem there. Cos I was going to be ordering carrier bags anyway. Well I can cross that out you see . Mm. Yeah. Erm I can't remember who said they'd sponsor those, but we'll get them onto something else. Well they can Erm so e e and and we ought to provision probably for a thousand. I would have thought so. If it's likely to be any more, I'll come back to you. Yeah. Er but I would have though that should easily do it. Er right so so we're talking er about basically being involved specifically at two locations. Yes. If you wish that. What I was gonna come onto there is erm can we e e that would involve manning wouldn't it? On the Friday and the Saturday. Mhm. Er would the factories between them be able to help with that for a spell Er one of the things that I'm slightly concerned about is if you've only got old buffers on the stand erm rather than younger people Mm. that might er erm lose an opportunity. Would there be I mean is there is there a possibility of getting some some of our younger people Oh yes. involved on the factory side. You know this caravan, is it covered with or ? It's got logos all round it. That's something that I think we need to have a look at. Mhm. Perhaps if we may. Mhm. Erm and and update er update it . The only perm the only permanent er writing on it is er School and College. that actually built it. That's fine. Could erm could you perhaps tie up between you, David and Jane, erm so that Jane you could go and have a look at it and see what's actually needed to get that up to date. By environmental friendly screen. Whereabouts is this? It's actually in the in the grounds of the of the college. You can drive past it, you can actually see from the roadway. Mm. Are the college involved at all? I I've spoken to the college. Erm Are they involved i in their own right? Er they aren't but they I think they're in it on the canvas. Right. They'll they'll be part of erm either Nottinghamshire County Council or District Council. Both of whom . Mm. Yeah. But it's likely that it'll be the last showing at Notts County Council of course. Indeed there won't be a County Council will there. Well we're all hoping there won't Er right so erm basically, if we have if we have that stand which erm perhaps could be factory manned Mhm. in principle. And er Jane if perhaps we could organize the manning of the table. And er I think perhaps if we could put a c are are we allowed to put round the table some Oh yes. erm some pictures . You can you can back the table with a Yeah. with a screen. That's that's the sort of thing cos we've we've got erm erm perhaps we could put up some of the I mean the ones that you've got out in behind your desk at the moment. That somebody's just pinched. Oh have they? Yeah. Well maybe we Yeah but er maybe we could we could book erm half a dozen panels Yeah. or something of that with with some photographs on, No reason no reason why that shouldn't be I mean we've we've got what we use as a as a clip display thing that's about six foot high and three panels you know but erm Yeah. That goes nicely behind a six foot trestle or whatever it is. Oh yes you can dress that little area up as much as you like. But my worry was that there wasn't going to be enough space there for you to perhaps say all you wanted to say. Erm I think maybe we need to think about it, we need to give a bit more thought to that Mm. Yeah yeah. Erm as to how much we er want Yes. need to do. You see if you're if you do have a display caravan you can probably do some some grass displays of of large bearings or something in the front of it to Yeah. You know for people to have a loot at. Yeah. That's not a bad idea from the point of view of the general public really, because that does give you a show to the sixty thousand odd people who are wandering around there. Yeah. Erm who wouldn't necessarily go to the schools marquis of course. That's right. Yeah. That's right, yes. Just as a just as a sales pitch for that. Well you're you're gonna ask us to pay fifty quid for the to to to park the caravan. I was gonna ask you to pay a hundred but I'll talk about that. You tell me how big a ground you want and I'll tell you what you're gonna pay for it . Right okay. Good try good try Tom. Okay. Sorry I I thought I thought you quoted a price of a hundred and said that No I said space is a hundred pound and we'll give you twice that size for that. Oh I see. I just I just assumed you'd give us that size for fifty quid. Well I can talk about this, I mean it depends erm. You know this marquis, will it just be Yeah? the schoolchildren at that that are actually going into it. Adults can go into it but we have found generally speaking that particularly on Friday, erm it's full of kids. I mean it's a place that adults would tend to avoid, the minute the put their head inside it. Saturday, there tends to be kids going in with their parents. Erm you see we do we do a family ticket which is used for Saturday, the Friday which admits two adults and four kids on on Saturday for twelve pounds fifty. Or . Erm and so kids that don't come on the Friday, tend to come with their parents on Saturday. And we have made a point of saying in this press release that children can individually enter this as well. Right. But if they win it, the prize goes to their school and not to them. Yeah. Now of course there is the there is the spin off as well, that you can get some mileage out of the winning school or the first three, by inviting them here or visiting them and so forth , Yes. Cos they're got to divert the money to a project. They they can't just put it into the school fund. Right. They've got to buy some equipment. The school that won it last year bought a skeleton. Erm a fully mobile workable skeleton, and th it's a deprived area of Nottingham and they've apparently been able to teach them more with this skeleton over this past six months than than any other kids in the school. I think they know where to hit people where it hurts most of them . Well yeah, I me I think that's perhaps something for er David and Eric to Yeah. er to consider, as to whether whether it would be appropriate to invite the winning schools for er to to bring a party in or involve them in the erm Gala Day or e I mean i erm or the open day or something. I think whatever whatever's our value when they come, you're bound to get a picture in the paper of it happening. Yeah. Yeah. Erm you know, and also we want a picture of The presentation isn't actually on the day, the presentation will be at the school. Right. So again come along and present it you see, as well. So we'll go along to school Yeah yeah yeah. Erm now er just just Philip just correct me er on the on the detail of this thing, er individuals pitch up at the tent, collect the collect the instructions Yeah. Yes. which you've prepared. That's right. Er which gives them the clues as to where they've got to go . That's right it gives the it tells them where they've got to go. And it will be on and stand. Erm It'll tell them where the clues are. Right. So they haven't got to find the site of the clues, Right. They've merely got to sort the clues out when they get there. Right. Right and they'll be told what the clue is. Yeah. And so they've got to they they'll be asked the question rather, and they know the answer's going to on the stand that they go to. Right so so they get the answer. And when they get the answer they pick up the the tro treasure the treasure . They pick up the treasure. Yeah. And then they're off to the next one. Right. And now how do we decide the winner? The winner is decided erm on the total correct entries and if I'm right there is a slogan to fill in. But that's all done by N F U,, you need have no part of that unless you want to have. Right yo I w no I was just gonna say th th there's there would need to be a tiebreaker of some sort presumably . There needs to be a tiebreaker. Yeah it isn't the first correct one out, they've all got shout if you like. Right. Erm but it's but what happens, they're all done and N F U rather treasure their erm their their job as the scrutineers of these. And I haven't erm I thought it's prudent to leave that alone. Right I I was just wondering if they would i if they would like us to suggest a tie breaker. Why not? Why not? What I would do Or something of that sort which might be associated with like, when was Yeah I'll get the next erm I'll get last year's questions. Yeah. And just see what they are like, and see what they did as a tiebreaker. Yeah yeah. And then perhaps you can sort one out. Yes. There's no problem I I mean like like the the er competitions cereal competitions, erm invent a slogan for , something like that . That's right that's right and who knows, you might get a good one. Might get a good one. Er so erm Yes I think something like that would would be erm Yeah. er Yes well I could arrange that . So the treasure hunt course as it were Yeah? is arranged by Is def is defined by by the show . And what we really do, when we've got the show ground plan done you see, we look at which stands are where and say, Right, we'll have that one, that one, that one, this one, and so forth and go Yeah and then you just go and talk to them Yeah. and er run off a s er a sheet of questions And if and if they haven't got any treasure, then we provide them with it, Right. whatever it is. Yeah. Erm I think last year, Well what I've got to do, I've got last year National Grid provided them with pens. I think we might have that one sorted out. You've got somebody to give them pens. We may have. Yes. That's that's something I've got to sort out because Er that that again if you haven't, we could probably fix. Could you? Yes. Well do you want to do that whether I whether I Do we want to do that Jane? How many er Well maximum a thousand. Could probably only five hundred. How how are we off for for pens? We'd have to order Cheap pens. order some more. We'd have to order some more would we? Yes. Are yours fairly elaborate ones that you have? No we do have cheap ones as well. Yeah. Yeah. That sort of thing. Yeah. Well I personally my stock . I think p maybe Philip it would be best if y er I mean if you've got somebody up your sleeve who I haven't at the moment because last year it was it was National Grid who haven't Right. who are closing their Newark operation you see, which has made it rather tricky to approach them . Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Shall I see what I can do? See what see what you can do and perhaps er Jane you could just look into the possibility of erm because if I mean if we were going to do a run of pens we wouldn't just have a thousand would we? No. Not not the cheap ones. No. Erm so perhaps we could have a a look and see what whether there is a plan afoot to er do those so that we could have some available for Yes er I mean that sort tell me what they want. It's fifteen by eight. Fifteen foot by eight foot. . Er right. Er are you telling me that that is there are any existing pens, they would be in the sales company? And I might have a thousand stashed away that I didn't know about? Could have yeah. Yes. Er well perhaps I'd better have a look. You could have a look but like I say, ordering freebies now it's up to the sales people to tell me what they want and I order them on their behalf. Erm right but but presumably there's some coordination between all the various sales companies. For for things like pens isn't there? Well yeah, if if the U K came to me and said, I want ten thousand pens, tell me what which ones they wanted, I would then contact the sales companies, Are you interested to to Oh I see. Right okay. But I wouldn't just go off my own bat now and order stuff. Right. And dish them out to the sales companies. Right. Okay. Er we'll have a lo we'll have a look at that Yeah. er Philip anyway . I mean they are they're funded by themselves. Er I'm conscious of that. I'm conscious of that. Er er and no doubt no doubt David and Eric are are erm noticing how much what we've funding Mhm. I mean basically, the s the the funding will come from the sales company Mhm. Erm er and erm wh what we're offering you is an opportunity to erm give your factories some promotion in the local area. Mhm. As well as the as well as the erm er the sales activity. Because from a sales point of view we won't actually cost you We won't actually sale Yeah yeah. We we we we won't s sell anything. What we will do perhaps is just promote the name,. sign-writers Er that's the object of the exercise Yeah as far as I'm concerned. I wouldn't expect to take an order or even have a serious enquiry resulting from it. No. Erm but I do feel that there is likely to be some positive spin off for the factories. Yes. Erm and er I I don't know exactly what's in your caravan but erm er whether you would want to put in something about employment opportunities or the training scheme, er apprenticeship schemes and that sort of thing . Mhm. Mhm. I would think there's a a grand opportunity to do all that . Oh yeah that's the main area really is is erm recruiting for apprentices mainly to the young people. Yes yes. That's why it would be good idea if you could man the When is it when is it? It's the sixth fifth and sixth is it, or sixth and seventh. six and seventh of May it is Six and seventh of May, Yeah six and seventh of May, that's right. Ideally have to be recruiting before then really. Well okay. Er but but there maybe there maybe some others well it gives a picture doesn't it of of erm I mean we do one of the Erm and that type of stand I mean it that in a very restricted area haven't you Yes yeah. your backdrop and everything. Yeah. The caravan is ideally designed as er an exhibition with steps in er either right or left in to see whatever's on show and then out on the opposite side. Mhm. Quite wide steps and it's designed as as a exhibition. So whatever we put inside there, you can walk through it. Yeah. Up a few steps, across and out the other side. Yeah. It has its own built in generator for the lighting. Brilliant. You can boil a kettle in there . It's own bar. Not quite, it is padded. relatively warm. Yeah, right okay. Erm so we we need to work out how much space we need to stand it in so that I can get back to Philip and and and agree that. Oh you've got the dimensions, oh right, yeah . Well I've got the dimensions here so I can I'm just thinking you see, I may persuade the society to do a deal of free stands facing or something like this. Good. But see see where we go on that. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Erm I mean I know the deal I'd do now but er only being their consultant I can't really clinch it. You can't commit Well I can tell Oh I can tell them wh In fact I would be prepared to do that. Right. Are you happy with that? Yes. You provide the pens, we'll give you a free stand space . Yes. Right, done. So we're provid we're we're going to have a table which we will man which will have some sort of display around it. Some some pictures and things . that's right. Yeah. Er and there will be somebody there. On that we will provide erm er carrier bags, er some pens and er we'll probably er dish out some leaflets there as well. Yeah. It may be that the carrier bags and pens would go onto the onto the table where the entry forms are dished out as part Yeah. of the package there. Yeah fine. In fact I suggest it probably should. Yeah. Erm and also you'll get admission tickets of course. Right Erm Yes. a reasonable number erm and you and I decide what's reasonable on that. Right. Right. Erm so that's that's that. We will we will undertake to provide some steel balls, some steel rollers Yeah. and some er bearings. Yeah. For a as giveaways. Yeah. Yes as as as the treasure. Yes quite. Er we will mobilize the er the caravan erm which needs updating and modifying to display whatever we want Yeah. And we will man that. At a at a space which you will provide us Yeah. Yeah. distance away from the marquis as well. Yeah. Erm and Yes bear in mind that that of course, that you're going to get quite a lot of adult audience going through it as well as kids of course . Yes. Yes. Erm I think er er we need some product range leaflets and things like that in and and the er the group giveaway. D I suppose it doesn't have a er something we could the corporate video on does it? Oh yes Does it? Tables and chairs and Oh well we'll we could we might easily use the corporate video for that. Cos that's rather exciting and and new. Er that but anyway we can we can organize that Er within within that space. The factories will will man well between us we'll work out the manning. Yeah Mhm. You'll provide us with sufficient entries so that the people who are man it get in and car parking . Yeah yeah. And car parking. Yeah yeah. Erm you're going to arrange the er the course. Yes yes indeed. Right. And we will set the questions. And set the questions. Erm. Yes and And also talk to you about a tiebreaker. And tiebreaker, yes. Tiebreaker . And then er in due course, some time after the event, er we need to be erm You'll do the presentation of the award. present the award. school at which we'll invite the press. This didn't happen last year and I was cross it didn't but I've organized it so that it will this year. Right Erm okay. I think they daren't take it to Road at Nottingham for some reason. Right erm er presentation to the schools and then we need to consider if we would want to invite . Then if you want if you want to invite them back that's right, yes. It i it could depend on where the school is you see because the winner was Nottingham last year. Erm it could be Newark, it could be Lincoln it could be Gainsborough. Yeah. Er wherever, wherever they come from . Yeah. Yeah. Yes it was rather it it was quite unintentional but they The winner last year, one of the teachers at the school was the secretary's sister. Oh dear. And and er this is And the society have nothing to do with it of course you see. But it didn't stop the cries. Right, okay I think I I've covered everything that was Yeah. er that that that I think will enable us to do our bit. Erm erm If there's anything else, do ring me and ask. Right. And erm Okay. But I will confirm all this to you. Yes. the decision's made on the and the stands space so there's no stand space. Good. Erm and what we will do is make sure you've got enough room for fifteen foot by eight foot with with whatever space in front of it as as a as a lawn if you like. Mhm. Yeah. Yeah. No problem with that at all. Great. Great okay. Lovely, thank you very much indeed. I will get me down to my Well you see he said that the problem with the college site is very few people at the college know how it runs. Well that's all right I'll I can provide somebody to run it and But as far as freebies are concerned, as you know our cage driller machine, that's now into it's third year of development, I have an assurance from the college that we could be we could use it on the day. Now talking of freebies, they could actually watch a cage being drilled for them as part of it . That's that's resin cage, not a brass cage. Yeah yeah. Very cheap, but actually watch it being made and then that becomes the freebie. Wonderful So that would give the publicity to the companies as certainly as the bearing as well, this I've just had this made. which which one the the one that went to the erm exhibition, the one that went to the competition. Cos we're doing another one aren't they? They're doing another one now the that was a prototype. Would would I mean could that be operated in conjunction with the trailer. Well yeah well Wherever As as part of the trailer. In the trailer or by the trailer. compressed air and electricity don't you. It's no problem, Malcolm's has got compressed air and and and electricity laid on. Yeah. the college compressor for that. That's no problem. I'm just thinking now if there are youngsters there, they see something working, Absolutely And that's an it's an ideal display see the mechanics working and they take out the cage and off you go. I think I think that would be splendid David if you could if you could erm organize that er on the on the trailer or or by the trailer, on the trailer stand as it were. Mhm. Erm and provide the freebie I mean the the the cages, the giveaway that would be tremendous. Cos they actually see it being made. Yeah. This was made for me. And it was made by and youngster because that's the project Yeah. made by the you know, not made by the the full industry but i the off spin of the industry. Yeah. And it's already I mean we've we've kept it in prime condition, painted with company colours. It does say on the front of it but And and I I would think I'm just thinking of freebies that just giving them something, and yet if they've actually watched something being made and then Yeah. made then erm You've just to got be ca You've just got to be careful that you get it i i you've got it pristine working and it's gonna work for two days. You don't want Well now this is why That's an important thing. that are now on the project, make sure that it is tip top condition for the event. Yes. Er Eric and I know fully we've been through that, fingers crossed behind our backs. Yeah. Situations. But we had it at the N E C for a week and it must have produced hundreds of cages on a routine daily basis. They were there for five days and they were producing them. I'm just thinking now that er we changed lots of things, the heads and things of that nature so it was If it's just producing the same cage Yes, no set-ups or anything. they're just watch it come in, drill the cage, the cage turns and comes in. The mechanics of it would capture the young imagination. Yeah. Yeah. Especially if it's demonstrated by the younger people as well. I think that would be that would be terrific. As opposed to giving them possibly a ball bearing. Well Well I mean we well Well Well give them a ball bearing and a cage. That's the treasure isn't it, that's the treasure. Why I'm yes that that might be a bit more complicated because that means we've got to get a thousand a thousand reject up to a thousand reject ball bearings which are all the same. But we can get the balls and then drill the cases to them. No no are you I think this treasure is something they're gonna get, they're gonna they're gonna g come to the stand, they're gonna a ask a ask a question and and and be given once they've answered the question they're given a ball, any sort of ball from sort of Yeah. that big to that big which we Mm. we can pull out of the scrap. No problem there is there? No. No as far as as far as the ball and the roller is concerned,thos those are something we could give away from somebody else's stand. Yeah. Erm and and we could actually give if we if we can find some small reject ball bearings or roller bearings, then we can or reject I mean erm dead stock. Mhm. Then and we're always we're always finding dead stock it seems to me, er then we could give those away on yet another stand, give the cage away on the e on our own so we will actually have provided three, four different treasures, all of which are associated with bearings . Mm. Yes. Three components and one complete so Yeah. Mm. the thing might even begin to connect in the individuals mind er as to what's involved with the bearing. Quite true. Erm and and I mean the actual bearing when you you pick up a a a a little miniature bearing and and you can spin it on your finger and Yeah so it makes a lovely little toy. Apart from anything else. Yeah. If we could get some of them. Erm just round this table product. Er I should think we might just have some products on the table and some leaflets. Are you looking, who are you looking to man it, apprentices or or or young salespeople. I think I would try and get young salespeople to Yeah. er to do that. Mm. Erm We can get the apprentices operating the machine can't we. If we can get that machine though. Yes. Mhm. Erm and we have a er we could we could take erm a few people out of the er out of the sales office. Erm and maybe out of marketing as well. Lots of young people in marketing aren't there Jane? Well I don't know I don't know about that. Probably two, me and Karen. Oh yes. Right. Erm We've got we've got Leslie Leslie at erm precision . Yeah but the thing is Somebody like me, if I was stood at that table, I mean okay if you've got kids coming in, but if you get adults coming in, I wouldn't be able to answer questions, I don't know enough about the product. Erm. No I I I don't I don't think You've got to have I don't think we need worry about that too much. No. Er I mean if I if I try and cover it with one of our professional salesmen, Mm. erm I think that's going to be overkill. Mm. We're not going to get a lot of serious bearing enquiries. No. Erm and I think that part of the skill on the on on such a stand is erm to to show enough interest, to take the details down and say, The only thing that's important Mm. it'll be a matter of taking the details down and then if it's that important we'll have somebody call Monday morning. Mm. Mm. Erm to er Yeah. er to to to get back at it. Or alternatively, I mean if it's really that important, erm and and it's on the Friday, we we could actually send for somebody from here to come out. Mm. So I don't think Yeah I don't I don't think you will there. I don't think we will. No. I don't think we will. Erm it'll it'll be enquiries which are of very general interest, Mm erm which I should think you're just as much of an expert as anybody else at answering. Mm. Come to that. Er Most of the questions are going to be related to to what it is, are there any jobs available, or what type of thing. Yeah. General sort of Yeah. interest things. How Yeah. how can it help the er the Newark populace. Yeah. I'll do Friday and Gary can do the Saturday . Right okay. Done. Done done done. Well you don't ne you'll need some other other people erm Yeah. other people to help out No I was only joking. but er Oh. You you're not joking. I I've written I've writ I've wri it's minuted, it's minuted er er it recorded as well. So are we on tape here. Yeah yeah yeah. Er so so it's Jane on Friday er er and Karen on Saturday. No Gary I said. Oh Gary. That's why I said I was only joking. Right Gary on Saturday. Right, okay. Erm No we'll sort that out. But we need to no we need to sort that out. Er er I don't see that it's a big problem. And er we ought to make a very definite point of putting our heads together perhaps, what do you think, about early March or something like that. Er m no mid- March. Sometime mid-March in order to just make sure that we're all you know that that there isn't some great hang-up somewhere. And that then still gives us four or five weeks to put anything right. Mhm. Er how about somewhere around the twenty third of March? Right, twenty third of March, would that be a Yeah. a good day? Mhm. For the moment at least. Er and shall we say, what's a good time for you? What's the best time for you? P P M's better for me. P M. Right. One thirty? One thirty, fine. One thirty,Newark Show meeting. David,Eric,Jane, Me and anyone else. If you want to bring anybody else along. Yeah, Erm who's involved, that's fine. How's that grab you? Fine. Good. Yeah. That sounds exciting. Well it's a bit different isn't it. Yeah yeah. A bit different. I'm sorry to hear about your er apprentice bay. Well yes it's er it is rather a a sad story really. I think after all these these years of having a an apprentice bay running and then er see it more or less wind down. But at least it's w it's wound down without the apprentices winding down. Oh yes,we're er as you know, we gave four and a half thousand to the local college this year or last year Yeah. to in increase apprentices into er the engineering or bringing into young people into engineering. Yeah. Not necessarily for , but from the town Generally. The idea being is that they would now spend the first year at college, possibly we then would look at them better and Yeah. pick them off. Right. And we intend to do exactly the same this year. So so we've actually Chamber of commerce to certain people at college and we're hoping Good. it will embarrass one or two of the smaller firms to also put money into the kitty to keep our college orienta er orientated towards engineering. Excellent excellent Because er we can do the arts and crafts, there's no problem, but engineering there's in a sorry state. Yeah. that the engineering is now safe. Yes. Whereas up until a few months they were thinking of closing the engineering department Were they really? college. Yeah. So we've er we've come to the front and we've led from the front. We can honestly say Well this is what is faced with doing. It's what we're doing on a pricing on on a pricing thing as well. We've we're we're taking the lead. Telling everybody else what the what the rules are and you know, what the pace is. Erm and and er of course, did make a very clear statement that it would be the leader. Mhm. Well erm we certainly are in we certainly are in Newark. And I I think the the ongoing concern then is we seem to have got on an even keel with apprentices. Erm literally training throughout throughout the year. Staff of twenty one. Yeah. All of them have come out of the time over the nineteen ninety three have all been employed by the company. Ah that's terrific. Erm so yes I think we're we can we can say we've been leading from the front. Yeah good. And if we've now embarrassed one or two smaller firms into actually putting money into our college. Wonderful So er wonderful likewise we have some projects to show that we have worked very closely as an engineering firm, with the local college. Yeah. And the local people. As tomorrow we give Cancer Fund, three and a half thousand pounds, cheque tomorrow. Do you really? From the Gala Day receipts. Oh that's wonderful. So we yes we are It's erm beginning to very good. Yes very good in in that respect . Look look quite significant. Yeah. Yeah. No longer are we referred to as although we still we're referred as But it's getting it's getting the image it's getting Yeah. the image has certainly improved. Well certainly I mean this this whole initiative is something that I s just seemed to me when Philip got in touch in the first place, that that something that we ought to er be involved with. I think e the idea there of the cage drilling machine and the caravan is to show that our connections , with college, what we can produce with youngsters of today. Yeah. A and because schools outside the area will see what we've done, Yeah. It may give them the light as well as what Right, that's that's terrific Terrific. And we have been involved, I have certainly been into schools a fair bit but but they're erm they are a bit reticent they're certainly slow to come forward to ask for your for you help and and Right. Wh while while you're erm doing that while you're th while we're thinking about that, erm there's something else on the schools front and the promotional front which which I am in the process of setting up. Which er I will be officially erm circulating to the factories er later and that is a national erm Yes yeah. Of setting a real live project for a design and technology A level student. Mm. Now because of other connections I've done it through Eton. Er not doing the one this year because of the changes that Mm. are going on and I just didn't feel that we could erm support one. But with the arrival of Ruddington, er the erm we have a wonderful opportunity there for doing something pretty pretty flashy. And so I've tried to open it up er rather wider and w what I've I've I've been put in touch with a a thing called the independent schools, design and technology association, which covers design and technology studies in all independent schools. Erm and in due course, they are hoping, that body is hoping to extend not just to independent schools but to all schools and be a design and technology education association for all schools. Erm however they're not there yet. Now it concerns me that er I don't want to be associated with the possible charge of elitism if we're only associated with independent schools. Therefore what I want to do is to seek the support of the factories to er spread the word, to circulate the information necessary to all the schools in the area. So that any any school within Nottinghamshire if you like or or Nottinghamshire and Lincolnshire or whatever might be appropriate in this area. However many you thought you could manage, it might just be the two Mm. secondary schools in Newark come that. Erm but that that opportunity would be there to circulate the information and the the entry rules er around the erm er er state schools within within the sort of factory catchment area. So it's an opportunity for the factories to promote their own activities within whatever they regard as the school catchment area. The way it's going to work is that we will er that the first thing is to invite applications. And the individual student will submit an application with some er example of work already done. And I don't know, I asked th the chap from the I S D T A how many people he thought we might get applying, he said he thought, well if we got fifty we'd be doing very well. Er so say we get fifty people applying, we will then use those application forms to decide how ma er sorry which ones we're going to go with. And I've said that the maximum that I think we could reasonably cope with would be five. And then we would give a complete project specification to the five participants and er we would invite them to visit a factory, to have a conversation with a sales person, to get a bit of a feeling for the style of thee of the be doing area. However many you Mm. out of those, and one will win and we'll have a second and third prize and the fourth and fifth will be runners up and erm highly commended or what have you. Er and basically what I want to do is to put the winner, the winning e exhibition into the new reception area, for the new erm office at Ruddington when it opens. Mm. So that er we can sort of give a great big bit of publicity for the schools, for the individual, for the concept of design and technology at A level. That sort of thing. The other four er erm loser er like as not, will be on display and remain on display in the er in in in the atrium area which is Mm. going to be a display area for product and projects. So erm we can give them a bit of a Mm. bit of a splash as well. So what what I'm that that that's the sort of basic outline and I see it as an opportunity of putting the name in front of quite a lot of schools Aha. erm and in the design and technology area. Er it is then an opportunity of getting at five five individuals and giving them a a pretty thorough going over and and a lot of encouragement. It gives them the opportunity of working on a real live project er which actually has an end point and is going to be used. It also gives them the incentive of winning some cash. Er it gives us when when we actually set the thing up and make the presentation, it gives us another opportunity for publicity not only in the local papers o of our own area but the local papers of wherever the school was. And it could be anywhere round the country. Erm and I would I would want to try and do some er organize some press coverage at that time for the losers as well as for the winner so that a a and one of the things when we select the participants, er the entrants, er we will not have them all coming from the same school or from the same area, even if the five best entrants all do come from the same school . Mm. We won't have that, we'll have them from Yeah. where suits us. Yeah. Er er er so so we've got lots of opportunity for er getting the name in front of young people, promoting design and technology and the engineering concept, getting these kids working on something that's real and live, erm and generally promoting the whole thing. Mm. So er in the course of the next week or two, I will erm be writing officially to er to each of the factories to invite participation. Right . Er and I daresay you'll get involved in that when the time comes . Mhm Yes. For Road and Yeah. and and Road. Yeah So er there we are. Oh yes.. Yeah. Of course there's I don't know whether you'd well you won't if you haven't been involved but we for the last last year and this year we've had this children from er there's a a sort of Nottingham University Yeah. is where it's set up from. Er and the young people who've left school er who are having a year out in industry before they go to university. Er and and I've found it very useful in t term I've just seen this. Would you like a cup of coffee? Yes yes. At the minute the erm last year's last year's individual with us he had I think he had he had five A levels of which four were grade A and one was greed B grade B. That's not bad. And and er he's gone off to Warwick University to do doing maths and stuff. And a chap, lad this year's got not quite the same but very very good A level results. Please. You must think I'm absolutely barking just to have been sat with this in front of me and not done anything about it. Thank you. No Philip must have been er wondering what on earth it was doing there . Er so erm Well it's it's on on the sane vein, just like the machine tool association competition was that the apprentices went in for. Yeah. Erm that was on the same vein and they got they got a ce er a certain amount of national er erm national er publicity. Yeah. Milk? No thank you. Jane's have some I think by the look of things. Thank you very much. Erm well I don't think one can do too much on that score really can one. Er any publicity is good publicity. Yeah. Yeah. Are you doing the open day again? Or has nothing been said about that yet? Or is it just assumed you would do an open day ? No I don't think we're doing an open day this year. We're still having another gala day. Another gala. And er I think throughout the year, er all of the younger apprentices, either sixteen, eighteen year olds have now been enrolled in Duke of Edinburgh Award Have they? Scheme yeah. And they're all about to do their silver. One of the somewhat older guy, he can orchestrate it so much so that he gets his gold out of it. Out in in he he's going straight to gold is he? No he's done bronze and silver. Oh he's done them yeah. And he if the rest of them get silver, he will get a gold. It's rather rather good actually. It's a form of team leadership Yes. And er we so we'll we'll pull that in over the year, over this next year and that's one of the projects that Good for him. I think younger guys, the sixteen, eighteen year old with their silver award Yeah. er and of course the gold award erm older guys next year's team then can go on for their their gold. Not that we're making any stipulation as part of their apprenticeship but er I think it's a good idea, they have extra Yeah. erm just beyond the engineering side. What it really means of course is that erm I've committed ourselves to doing the dare I say it, the odd jobs. It sounds v the odd jobs to do with all the the smaller schools and and Yeah. er kindergartens. As you know, we fixed the roundabout for the people in town, I can't remember the name of the place. I used to call it the back of actually. But nevertheless we Yeah. the the guys went up there and they fixed it and they were very very We had Christmas cards from them and we've Lovely. And so I what I said was, as part of their community service, we would then earmark the various small erm children's homes, old people's homes and they would go as a team of electricians, fitters, craftsmen and do a community work. Marvellous To towards their silver award . Towards the So we will be flying the flag there. Because of course they will be wearing our Very constructive. And that has a a nice ring to it. That younger element, are doing something for the local community. And we're trying That's very good. we're obviously there's old people's homes here on Drive, there are lots of small erm kindergartens that will require their appliances being serviced. Yeah. And things of this nature. One project was to literally find out all of the old age pensioners in town and go along as a group of electricians and check all of their appliances for them. Quite . Mm. So they'll have so many houses to work in,they will go along initially and make sure the plugs on er irons and It sounds very simple but it's part of helping the community. Yeah. Yeah. For their award. Erm we'll be flying the flag on on those I tell you yeah . Well that's very nice. That's very nice. Good initiative. Of course they they have to do all that out themselves. They've got to negotiate with the the er people that run these homes and and erm and that kind of thing. And set it up? And set it up. Yeah. Oh it's all part of their er their project. But likewise we were looking for another project similar to what er Eric and I were involved in with the cage drilling machine. I think superb projects. We're only hoping at the end of this year, hopefully the company will incest in it. And buy some. They have they not Cos I thought they were going to buy some of these drilling machines . Oh yes but but but what they're doing now is all the erm, they did the presentation to the manufacturing side, Yeah. er with your assistance. Yeah. Er they did they did the sales pitch to and then management came back and said, well we need automatic loading and modifications to it. Yeah. So they've been working on modifications and this year, oh we will we'll put the modifications right and then come back with another sales pitch to Right oh I see. Yeah. Yeah. They're doing another one but I think erm was talking to er Andy the other day because erm I've been in manufacturing management meetings at Yes. where they're talking about spending money on a one of these old old cage drillers, tooling it up to drill cages at . And and my ears went you know, what on earth are you spending all this money for on that Yeah. when when you've got this new technology which you can develop. Mhm. Er and it looks as though it certainly in in Andy's budget for this year Mhm. and a bit later on, he's looking to put erm I don't know, twenty thirty thousand into building a brand new cage drilling machine based on that technology. But using the the technicians and who who the main ones Robert and Bill Mhm. with Brian ,main input really. Mhm. That sounds excellent doesn't it. Yeah. Yeah. So they're looking because we we at precision now need it but we need it faster than if we if we awaited for this, then put in and so on. Yeah yeah. Erm you know, five years hence, we don't want it in five years hence, we want it the end of this year, early next year . This year. Yeah. Yeah. Mm. But so far you see, the er have been involved in it, who have been craftsmen, technicians have all come out of the end of a B Tec qualification with a distinction On the project. on the project. Yeah so yeah er yeah. it's It it it I I think there's a lot to be said for er people doing almost any sort of practical course like that, to give them something which is real. Because certainly the thing that particularly struck me about these design and technology A levels which so often seem to be sort of er erm a contrived project, not not a real one. And and the three individuals who I worked with particularly, they'd all been more or less written off, and they all come through with distinctions. Yeah. And and the feedba I mean I've had feedback particularly from the parents of of all three, and in every case, er they have said, this was the making of this guy. Mm. You know i it's pick picked him up from being very much an also ran for whom there was virtually no no hope, er to leaving the school with a a really good qualification and a sense of pride and purpose Mhm. erm er which has really made a big difference. It's a good thing really, my son did erm A level craft, design and technology Yeah. er and erm he he he designed his own thing what what Yeah. what he wanted to do and and then he got a reasonable pass and went off to university. But I think if er if he'd have had a firm's input, that wanted something designing, he'd he'd have done a lot better. Yeah. Because the thing he produced eventually, it fell over at the end of the day Yeah. you you know I mean, but he'd put the the research and the effort into it to get the pass. To get to get the Yeah. qualification. Yeah. But if he'd have had some a little bit of direction Mm. from a firm you know, I'm sure he would have he would have got a distinction er an A rather than a B you know. Well than the other the other thing which I think particularly in the last one that we did which was finished back in March, we kept on changing the specification, because it started off such a such and specification and it was going to the Hanover Fair in Germany Mm. in April. Or May. April. April. And then we decided not to go to the Hanover Fair, so change the specification so that it could be a a versatile sort of display for whatever we wanted to display. Er and then I heard from Australia that they were going into the engineering exhibition in Melbourne and I offered them er a mobile display and they came back with one or two added ideas and so I changed the specification again. That was going to be in May so we needed it to ship in April so I said, well you've got to you've got to still finish it at the same time. And then Australia came back and said, no that won't be soon enough, you've got to ship it I can't remember when it was, beginning of March. And so er the guy had to bring the whole project forward a month. Mm. Erm and er he worked like the blazes to get this thing done . Er and it was quite complex Mm. and it worked, and it got over to Australia, it got unpacked and it still worked when it got to Australia, and it went on the stand and it stood on the stand for a week or however long it was. Er and they've now got it stashed away in in Australia waiting for the next exhibition. Mm. Mhm. So it it was it really worked well. Very well. And I'd like to do something like that again. And I mean, some of the some of the results that we get from this competition, might well be appropriate for a a stand at an exhibition somewhere. Or it could be that they would be appropriate for the reception area in one of the factories, or we might give one to a distributor and say, here you are, this you know, put this in if you've got the right sort of area and would like to use it for a bit, stick it in there. You know so there's all sorts of What happened to that The first It's in mothballs down in the . Was it ever repaired? Oh aye, they repaired it Yeah. they were modifying the I think it was the geography of the world. I mean like Australia Oh a mere detail in the middle of the Arctic Put Australia in the Northern hemisphere and that sort of thing. But er Yeah. yes it er I think the the wiring needs to be changed because i Yeah. it had a wooden a wooden bearing would you believe Did they? Yeah. They modified that Yeah. I think that was okay. It required slip rings Yeah. Which was a very good thing most of the the young apprentices would never know about slip rings. Yeah. They had to manufacture that part itself. Yeah. And er as I say, at the moment Well when you when you say it's in mothballs, erm how seriously in mothballs? I mean if could you take the mothballs off and dust it off and it would work? Plug it in and it would work? More or less yes, just a few adjustments and it could be up and running I would think. Maybe maybe a couple of hours work on it to put it back together . Cos I mean, that again is something that that one might put into the into the tent or something. See the idea was it it picked up the the balls, took them to the and then the ball rolled round inside globe, slowly down to the bottom and then picked it up Yeah. Originally it was supposed to be water wasn't it in in in the bottom. Er there was going to be water in the bottom at one stage but that Yeah. got a bit too complicated. Yeah. He was o he was over ambitious. Mhm. In the design. The idea of the three spotlights of course Yeah. was was see that the ball Yeah. Yeah. rushing round inside of the literally going round the worlds and then down and then . Yes. Erm I know at one time they were the motors were going to fast, the ball was . But the idea of course was to bring the electrical, mechanical and the technicians to redesign the little bits that were Yeah. Yeah. erm the inside they they had to redesign that because the wood er had almost become charcoal were the Yeah. had been so that Had they really? Yeah. Erm and again to make it safe, it all ran on a twelve volt system. That's right, it was on a twelve twelve volt erm wiper motor. Mhm. And er and that that's They had to take the top off to make it safe, that's why I say a couple of hours work to put the top back on, erm makes balance. What it really required was probably sandbags or or steel in the base to keep the base Mm. Yes. stable because it was rather top heavy A bit top heavy. Yeah. with the globe at at at the top. Well er I mean a brilliant idea really. I mean if if er erm er if it would work, Mhm. I mean I one of the things that I've always sort of had in mind is that we put it down in the reception area. Mm. The only things is that now if we did that, what we want instead of saying on it, it ought to say . Well possibly I ought to put it on my review panel and er if there's a requirement for it. If you could dig it out if you could dig it out Mhm. we'd put it down in the reception area. Mhm. Yeah. For a bit. And then if it if if we have it down in reception for a bit, er and it works and doesn't look like falling to bits, the we could consider taking it along to the Newark Show as well. Mhm. As I say, it's that mechanical movement that catches the eye globe slowly turning round and the Yeah. Yeah. I think the stress and strain on the bearings for instance, the the middle bearing of it was underrated to carry that amount of weight, not in the vertical sense but in the yawing to and fro . Er old spin and and yaw. Yes it might have been. Yeah. It might have been. They need the extra weight at the bottom. The shaft needed to come through two bearings to give it that stability . Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But erm the idea is have this up and running and look at the problems. Right. So th this caravan aside Yeah. can presume that it it's going to involve as a whole so it will have some Yeah. industrial type applications and precision applications in there. Well I I guess the graphics need to be looked at in that Mhm. Jane. Whereabouts is it? In the grounds of the college. If you go by the side of the college you'll see it from the Where you pull into the car park? under the trees. On that side. Yeah it's a sort of er trailer thing you can see from the pavement. Mm. They had it on the gala day. Used it on gala day. I didn't go to the gala day. We towed it to er and back. That was a feat of I think the nearest thing to it is probably towing a caravan er a pyramid. Really? Yes. Mm. Quite a quite a lot of wind resistance . Aerodynamic Yeah. It wasn't the best But ideal it's it's very spacious inside. Yeah. Erm in that respect. And erm I mean we towed it over a thousand miles so the Yeah. the local journeys round the town, there's no problem. Mm. The average car could pull it. Mm. Erm it's very well made we have a video, watching it being made from the bare Well all the way up to it's That that's that's certainly something Do we have a video on a on a loop or anything . Erm cos that that would be the ideal thing to do wouldn't it . we haven't yet got copies, they're just masters at the moment but Ah but we'll have copies by May surely. If the European sales companies get their fingers out and get the languages checked for me then yes. I'm quite happy to have it in English. Erm yeah that's another thing. Yeah it c it can be put onto a loop. Video. So the as far as I'm concerned, the the two projects put together erm really do show what we can do we can do with a a team of bods. Originally the er the idea was to to build this caravan in connection with School. Yeah. And er we were told that, we were told that our apprentices would be working alongside apprentices from Mercedes and Volkswagen and and so on and so forth. That wasn't quite true. So consequently we made sure that we we picked the best of our guys to match Yeah. Yeah. the German Er secondly there there was a golden opportunity for our apprentices in industry to go and see German industry and French industry. Yeah. And so on and I'm pleased to say that they came back saying, Yeah we can still hold our head up high. The the fact that we are very good at what we do. Yeah. Of course we didn't realize that these would be erm students from from schools. Yeah. So their engineering knowledge was very little. Still basic. Very basic. Yeah. So consequently our guys ran circles round them Marvellous. and we balance it out that we had to built the caravan, the deadline we had to tow it across there in back end of March. Erm so it had to have all the lighting, official lighting for the continent and so on and so forth. Yeah. And that was a bit of a nice little deadline the pressure was on. Yeah yeah. But er we got it over there and I'm quite pleased to see it, the entire school, six hundred pupils turn out to see this thing being towed up there on a Wonderful sunny evening. Wonderful And er had a tremendous press coverage over there. Yeah. likewise the when it went through the town on the way out, everybody turned out to see this thing leaving . Because of the association between and York, being twins Yeah yeah yeah. And people were in the street shaking hands and Marvellous absolutely marvellous you know. Brilliant. Of course the logo was the biggest logo on there you see. Er and even lads from the college, it was a mixture of five welding students and and five students Yeah. er I think our guys stole the show Good. Right, well we're on to a we're on to a new er a new era, a different erm different angle. Er and erm there we are . bef between now and March. Or are you gonna Well erm no doubt Jane will actually look inside the the caravan. Mhm. Yeah. Sometime and see what the facilities we've got there. Erm I can certainly no problem. I've already earmarked the cage drilling machine just in case we did require it, to make sure that no parts were taken off it to support the next one . Right, good yeah. Erm this is where we've asked our tool room to supply them with any parts, save taking them off the the original. To make sure it does roll. And now if with your wish we can certainly go ahead and make sure it is in tip top condition. Yeah. Make sure was have enough material to make the these cages. Yeah. Erm so I I'll concentrate on those those Terrific. those two things. Yeah. And again the the manpower to run it. Yeah. I E if it works out in er that the younger guys to match up with the make sure they've got the experience to actually fault find on the machine if Right. But I'm pretty certain it'll run all weekend. It ran all week at the N E C. Yeah. Wonderful wonderful. gave erm Robert and Bill and Oh yes. Oh yes. Oh yes. The idea is, if one of those and a couple of the younger guys, like we did at N E C Yeah. ideal. Mm. Yeah. Get the expert as well as a couple of supportive Lovely. Yeah. to talk about it. That's how we covered it at the N E C. Right. Okay well I'll I'll do a I'll do a note on on the various headings that I've made so we've all got the same piece of paper. Mhm. Erm and then we meet again in March. Er I'll let you know if there's anything cropping up again before then. Er but hopefully by March we will be able to say, well it's all ready to Yeah. hot to trot. Okay. Ready to go. Right. Wonderful, thank you very much indeed. I'll really turn it of this time. Welcome back. The body count in that most British of places a fish shop, was nine dead. By tonight the terrorists' toll was seventeen, but the city was over the water, Belfast, and even the politicians were running out of words to express their horror. Today the British and Irish Prime Ministers debated whether to talk to the terrorists. Should we, or should they just be rounded up and locked up? John Taylor, Ulster Unionist MP for Strangford. In nineteen seventy two the I R A attempted to assassinate you and you were a very very lucky man,yo your body was was absolutely riddled with bullets. Erm th thank god you're here today. Yeah. Er what's the atmosphere like in Belfast, what's it been like this week? Well the atmosphere is very bad indeed in Belfast because er we had this before of course twenty years ago we had various bad situations but it hasn't been so bad in recent years, but this last fortnight, er we've had U V F killings, then we had this terrible bomb by the I R A killing the protestants in the Shankhill Road. The U V F which is now a much larger terrorist organization has responded by killing catholics and there's tremendous fear now in both communities, there used to be just fear in the protestant communities, they were being attacked by the I R A, but now as the Cardinal has said there's very big fear in the catholic community as well. There's re the tension really has There's what I have called a parity of fear, Yeah. in both communities now and this is creating tension. So what's the way ahead with dealing with the terrorists? Now. Well er y it's you cannot solve it by a security policy alone. Yo first of all you must distinguish Northern Ireland from other ar territories in the world where there has been terrorism. Like in South Africa or like in Cyprus or Kenya. In those areas, the people didn't have votes. Palestine they didn't have votes. P L O. We'll come to this but briefly t In Northern Ireland, we have democracy and Yeah ninety per cent of the people vote against the terrorists, Sure they don't want anything to do with it . So what's the way ahead against the terrorists? The way ahead is to intern the terrorists from Wi both communities without trial? Oh yes, without trial, from both communities and secondly alongside it and in parallel introduce a new political initiative in Northern Ireland, to get the catholics and protestants involved in the administration of their own country where they live. And why by interning terrorists, you would include Gerry Addams for example? Definitely yes. How many years One second I'll come to you, we've got more talking to do before I do come to you. Clare Short look at that picture there. We've got Gerry Addams who er wanted earlier in the week if we were to believe what seemed now like to be sitting at a table discussing peace, there he is carrying a bomber's coffin. How can that man ever be taken seriously, should he not be locked up? I think to talk like that is to just to want to let it go on and on and on. W we tried internment before, it caused a massive escalation of violence cos you never, you get families are angry, it escalates the numbers who are committed to terrorism, last time it was just the Republicans, if we did it on both sides it would just escalate terrorism. It would be a disaster. What we also have is the British and Irish government, John Major and Gerry Addams all talking seriously about a possible peace initiative. How can he be taken seriously when he's doing that? I'm not interested whether you take him seriously or not. I am interested whether there's a possibility of bringing an end to the violence in Northern Ireland. And all serious people who regret all the people who've died and been maimed should be interested in that. And just playing games with that picture takes us nowhere. Everyone can den denounce each other and we can go on forever It's not games. and it'll never get better. It's not games. It is a reality. He, that is a photo opportunity that Gerry Addams took and it was on the front page of everybody's newspaper . Everybody in the country knows that . John Taylor. Well what I think what Clare forgets, I know Clare comes from a a republican background,in South Armagh, and she s probably sees it only from that point of view . I come from Birmingham actually. I know but your family are from that I come from here. Yeah but I'm thinking of your background, where your roots are. You've got to s remember there are two sets of terrorists in Northern Ireland now. Not just republican, we have loyalists as well and the loyalists have the potential for being the bigger and more effective of the two, and if we let the I R A to continue without interning them, you are going to have the situation deteriorating in the way which you don't want and I don't want, and you're going to end up as the chief constable of the R U C said a few weeks ago with Dublin being bombed. That is what's ahead of us and we've got to warn people that that is ahead and try and take action now before it gets out of control. And that's why the Unionist parties have a duty to be more interested in this possible peace. Lots of the people who vote for you have been hurt and maimed and injured. You are all saying we're not interested, we're not interested. We are interested . Maybe this could take us somewhere, and your people would and you you yourself were nearly killed. Yes I never Surely we should try and see I don't know what you're talking about,we of course we're interested in peace, we want peace. We No you're not you denounce it all the time. had talks, round table talks at Stormant this year and John Major hardly ever appeared, he stayed in Strasbourg. He's he puts more into talking with the I R A and Sinn Fein than he does with the Unionist community who at the end of the day are the majority in Northern Ireland . Let's go back to the terrorists just er just just briefly , Clare whatever you say, that's a p potent picture and it was a deliberate photo opportunity. What was he doing, what's his thinking there? You're an acknowledged expert on the I R A Tim Pat . Well I think even if you don't do it as one christian or as one human being to another, even if you do it in the view of a general who sleeps with the enemy general's picture over his bed and you've gotta try and think into this man's mind, remember he's from West Belfast, he's from the area that this man was killed in. He'd already made a very courageous statement condemning him No he didn't condemn him. at the time. He didn't condemn it. I didn't interrupt you now Yes. I know your notions of democracy are based on your former Stormant but don't interrupt me . But I'm correcting you, yeah,yeah no he didn't condemn it he did not condemn it. I don't like misrepresenting what he's saying . He he he condemned that man No he didn't. who is dead, he condemned another of his followers who was lying badly injured in hospital, like this unfortunate man here who was blinded, and I can understand why Clare feels badly about this tabloid television, it's not a time for exciting, you know I everybody er is appalled by any bereavement or misery. Let me finish. He did all that he did all that at the same time if he is go you can't make those accusations when he stepped beneath the coffin for two minutes to deliberately have his photograph taken. Th the fact of the matter is that at the next general election, the Stormant or the Westminster election, Gerry Addams will win that seat. Not because he carried that coffin but because the people on his side are ravaged, their nerve ends are torn raw, and if he d backed off and didn't support a dead fellow Irishman he'd be dead politically Is Gerry Addams and the peace initiative would be dead, and that's what we should be talking about not making cheap debating Is Gerry Addams a man of peace? He is, he certainly is yes. Oh. John Taylor. Gerry Addams is a man who supports the murder campaign by the I R A terrorists, always defends it and he didn't condemn the killing of the protestants on the Shankhill Road by that I R A man, he carried that I R A man's body at the funeral, what he said was it was unfortunate that innocent people were killed. That's what he said, that's a different from condemning it . shattered by Mm. Shattered. But he didn't condemn it. Martin Dillon another expert on the on the on the terror campaign, and also there's an arm a general army council of the I R A right at the top that's in the yeah? Well are you asking wh what is Gerry Addams? And what's his position in th is he on the I R A council ? L l l let's try to explain for for an audience that's looking at television pictures here and what we're talking about. In Sinn Fein and the I R A there is an umbrella organization and we've gotta be careful legally here. The organization is called the Republican Movement. The Republican Movement has general orders which apply to everyone within that movement. That movement is a mixture of Sinn Fein which is the political dimension to the struggle and the I R A. Now my, I mean I would have to say, I mean very clearly, that they're inseparable. I mean in the sense that their objective is the same, then it's the same organization. Now for me to say that Gerry Addams is a member of the I R A, I'm not gonna to do that. What I will say is that Gerry Addams is a member of the Republican Movement. You can judge for yourself. Is the Republican Movement the I R A, I would have to say logically of course it's the I R A. Would Gerry Addams be like a large company, a director of that of an organization, a large company? You'd have to say of course he's a director of that company . Right, right I know what you're saying and you've got to be very very careful. Sir William Ross, you're an MP for East Londonderry. Erm internment is something that you believe in. Now surely if you're gonna intern the leaders and m might they include Gerry Addams and we we could talk about the other side, we could talk about the Loyalist er paramilitaries equally, surely there's just another wave gonna come along because it's a never ending assembly line of terrorists, so what's the point? Well the reality is of course that Clare has already told us that internment didn't work the last time, it was badly done the last time. It worked on every other occasion when it was tried both th north and south and was used very widely in the republic in the past to behead the terrorist organizations. And that is what we're talking about, we're talking about taking out the two or three hundred really active people, the control and the command structure of the I R A and of the other terrorist organizations and putting them in. But then Tim Pat do n other active people not just come along? That's exactly what we heard saying, we're bombing civilians to take out the control and command structure. It wasn't they took three hundred people the last time and now he's talking about three hundred. You'd only just multiply the thing, you'd spill petrol on an already burning flame. And the situation's very tense at the moment anyway and it would just But the intern I have to say this, this is I R A. There wouldn't be an I R A only for internment the last time. Apart from the fact they got the wrong ones, as Clare said they s you know they just multiplied all through the place . That's nonsense, that's nonsense When it was done before in the republic, you wanna quote history, you wanna quote it accurately, it was done with the agreement of a sovereign people. The whole of the people in the republic agreed within their own undivided , this is a divided country, a divided community rather, and such a vote Has been succ there has been su there have been successes though haven't there ? No such a vote of no confidence has never yet been passed in a west European state. A British government said they were so undemocratic, they took away that, parliament. It hasn't been restored, there's a bloody vacuum. What is needed is a constitutional political solution, not internment. John Taylor. Well, I I still look ahead, and I recognize the loyalist paramilitaries have now the potential to become the major force. And they will be bombing Dublin, and once that starts Dublin will be more anxious to agree with us to have internment in both Northern Ireland and the Republic. And it's just a pity Now it's just a pity that they're sitting back in their armchairs in Dublin thinking they're immune from the situation that's developing before our eyes. The chief constable comes from Dublin and the republic in fact spend three and half times as much per capita as is spent by the United Kingdom in trying to restrain terrorism . Yeah,oh yes I agree What about all this talk of bombing Dublin, what about all th explain to you, this is a this is No it's not this is what the chief constable of the R U C, the Dublin man that you've just mentioned said it, he said it. I walked through Dublin in nineteen seventy four in May, the worst single atrocity that has happened was the bombing of Dublin . That's right, that's right Thirty five people who were killed that day and remember that on Yorkshire television it's been established that there were and this is something you gotta over, people like you had got the ear of the Special Branch and murky people in the establishment of the the murky people I R A were let off the leash and with Yeah, yeah that help without it they wouldn't. What about these threats of bombing Dublin, the the the loyalist paramilitaries getting the upper hand as John Taylor is saying there, is bombing Dublin a real Le let's deal possibility? Let's deal with that first then you can deal with what you wanna deal with. Is bombing Dublin a real possibility? Erm of course there's a real possibility. I mean the one thing that has happened in recent times, and I don't like prophecies so, I don't wish to be a part of one, let's be clear about that, I'm doing this as an analyst. Erm the loyalist paramilitaries have become much more sophisticated than they've ever been in their history. Erm I would say that in the past the loyalist paramilitaries, apart from the obvious thing which was easy going out just and killing catholics as they've been doing recently. Erm they've developed along the lines of the provisional I R A, they've developed a sales structure. They're much more sophisticated than they've ever been in the past. They're much more capable probably of conducting a campaign They've no political wing like the I R A they do they? No it it is probably one of the difficulties if it ever comes to to negotiate with them. What I'm actually saying is, they are a very serious threat. Now if I could just come back to one other thing, cos Tim Pat was raising it. Erm internment erm I think is always a very dangerous option, because it presupposes there is no political solution. And really it's up to politicians. I mean the politicians I think have failed the people of Northern Ireland. On both sides of the water. It was never on the agenda in Britain which I think was one of the major problems in the early days. I think the army really was the fall guy. I mean the army was left to do a job which politicians should have done. And the army opted for internment. And really it has to be said and has to be said historically that I mean the army in a way was left with a job which politicians should have sorted out before it got to that stage. We're gonna to speak to some army people Martin. We're gonna have to And that is als ,I'm just saying that it's a very dangerous Right. thing today to suggest that there is a security solution. It presupposes that the intelligence people have the information now,hold on the Well come on, they know who they are, they know who they are, they must do I R A are bombing this country unfortunately, they've no right to bomb it. And the fact is I mean nobody seems to be able to stop them. And it goes on. Now if the intelligence community is that good, let's be very clear about it, it would be easy, and to sa suggest that internment might make it easier, I think is wrong. Who's going to take charge of internment? The R U C or the army? Let's speak to erm we talked about the soldiers there, let's speak to some soldiers. First of all erm a a man who served over there. Er Ray, you were a victim of the I R A, can you tell me what happened? Yes, erm I was a victim from er an I R A bomb. Erm we were on patrol, just a normal patrol in er in Belfast and unfortunately I lost my sight and two very good friends of mine were killed, and another was er blinded in one eye and severe injuries to his leg. What was your patrol doing? Just normal patrols, looking after the people of Belfast. And of course, when this all happened, and I'm listening to what people are saying tonight, it's it's sort of making me feel a bit sick what they're saying. Why is that? One supports that I lay in the street looking and waiting for a a man they mention tonight and that man is a well known killer of British soldiers. And I'm now asked Which man? I'm now asked to respect him. And I'm sorry, I cannot respect a man The man who's name has been mentioned tonight? Tonight. I cannot say that anybody can respect a man in this country and to run for their country as a well known I R A supporter. And he's up there on one of your pictures. Mhm. And I cannot What would then, what would be your solution as a soldier who served over there, a victim of terrorism, what would your solution be? I see many ways of a solution but there is never positive solution, but I feel that they are putting units into this country, like they can bomb anywhere they like in this country. There's been a car bomb in London tonight as well. I didn't here that. Mm. I'm very sorry if people got injured. You're getting innocent people, men and women killed, children killed and we're expected to accept this. I feel they're putting units into this country, why not us put a unit into their country, not to kill their women and children, but to kill the people who's actually doing it, whether they be I R A, U D A, knock 'em out, let's have 'em out once and for all. Well, well you could say that's a very er a purely e em emotional er response and you can understand that, but I want to speak to to you er Colonel Michael , you're with the Royal Green Jackets. Now never mind the rights and wrongs I was was with them You were with them yes. Never mind the rights of wrongs of what Ray said, Mm er w I I suspect you don't agree with what Ray said. I don't. But how long would it take for the army, the S A S or whatever to go in and erm clean up the situation as it were? In purely practical terms ? Well that that is an entirely hypothetical question. But in purely practical terms. but I I'm sorry b if you would let me answer. What I would wish to make absolutely clear is I don't believe that in the context of a liberal democracy that is even remotely a possibil it's a possibility but it's not an acceptable solution . You've made that clear, you've made that absolutely clear. But yes it could be done, but even if it were done, and you were quite right, the the the intelligence is insufficiently precise to actually hit everybody. We might be able to write off fifty per cent or something like of that order, er of of of er known terrorists, but one would not be able to solve the situation even using those methods and you would create martyrs, you would merely exacerbate the situation, quite apart from the legal er horror, I mean i it is it is inconceivable in in in Britain, that sort of action. But even if it were, in would be ineffective. The the the intelligence is insufficient. Can I just now you predicated that answer by saying this cannot be countenanced in a normal liberal democracy. Now there's seventeen people died in in Northern Ireland this week. Mm. Are we talking about a normal liberal democracy? The fact that some members of that democracy, some individuals, flight its rules, doesn't mean that those, the vast majority, the ninety nine point nine per cent of us, follow their example. No we must er abide by the rule of law, as we always have done, as our trad as our traditions demand and as most of the people in this room I'm sure in their hearts would wish to. Can I ask you, when the army went in in nineteen sixty nine, did you go in then? In sixty nine? I wasn't as I was there in the early seventies f for my first and then subsequently . Right, do you think do you think did the army consider they were going into a colonial situation? No I don't think that's an accurate er characterization. I think the army thought they were going in to a situation where they could they could help, they saw themselves if you like as the referees er as a neutral party in between two sides. That situation only lasted for about a year and of course soon er the army was portrayed as the enemy, particularly by the I R A and the republican party and the republican population. I take part of a thesis and I think I mean a lot of it is is very very important in terms of even considering internment, in relation to the whole intelligence problem. I think when the army went in that the army because there was no political direction from Westminster, we've seen the seats in the House of Commons, I mean nobody's there when Sir Patrick 's talking about Northern Ireland, which I think is absolutely disgraceful, when they're talking about their salaries they're there. Erm and so the army was left in a position where all it could do really was rely on its own history. And so therefore all it could do was look at Aden and Palestine and Cyprus, in terms of actually, I'm talking about the practicalities of Mhm. you know, how an army actually behaves and how it thinks. As mercenaries do. Well internment worked in Aden and Palestine and Cyprus, internment worked there. But the methods The methods they used were were the same tactical methods Yes used in colonial situations. Ab absolutely, absolutely. Some hands are going up, some hands are going up. I want to find out what people are saying, yes I'll come to you in just a second about internment. What would you like to say? Over here. Er the MP er the terrorists of today in further generations, the only way to stop them is to stamp out the supplier of er their arms and their money, as without th er the guns and the bombs er the edge have gone. The edge has er gone off terrorism. Now you're from the Troops Out movement. You've been dying to speak all night. Perhaps you could address your point, cos I know you want the troops out, you think that'll be the key role to all the problems in Northern Ireland. What would you say to Ray? I think er it's tragic what happened to Ray and I think it's also tragic what's happening to people. You're talking about sending the S A S in. The S A S are already there and there are people that have been shot dead, unarmed people, civilians who've been shot dead by the S A S. I think That's rubbish. that the calls for internment That's just not true. I I think the calls It's not true? for internment Of course it's not true no. I haven't finished The S A S have operated in Northern Ireland and have been for a long time. But they have operated against terrorists, they those terrorists have committed a crime and through intelligence the S A S have been in situ and have immediately shot those criminals. So the S A S are there? Can I just say Ray. Yes they are there. Yes that er Ray wants to say something. Yes I I haven't said anything Then you can come back. My point is, you heard the say how well equipped the U D A are. Now that's the other side. So therefore if you pulled the troops out tomorrow, what would happen tomorrow? Can I answer? Well I'm waiting for you. Oh sorry I thought the No you've you carry on. Oh sorry. The er the troops w have been there for twenty five years nearly. And there is still no signs of peace. The talk of internment and sending in the S A S is an admission of political failure. Now every opinion poll in er Britain for the last twenty two years has said that they believe that has shown that the people believe that the troops should not be in Northern Ireland . Right let's just another little er shout from this gentleman here. What would you like to say? Irrespective of the things that are being said tonight, I think we've gotta look at the reasons for all these bombings and shootings. And it's for p for p for publicity.. Irrespective of the things that are being said tonight, I think we've gotta look at the reasons for all these bombings and shootings. And it's for p for p for publicity. Publicity, the er the media should get out and not report all these er . Oh starve them of publicity,th that'll . Surely, in the in the long run Can I just say on the John Taylor yeah. Very briefly on the British troops. First of all British troops have been in in Northern Ireland for a hundred and ninety five years since eighteen hundred. They didn't just go in twenty three years ago as somebody suggested. Secondly, think what would happen if you took the troops out of Northern Ireland tonight. You would a Bosnia immediately, it would break up, send the U N in, look what it's done in Bosnia . We are we are we are running out of time, John Taylor John Taylor I'll come to you in a second, John Taylor shush, shush you've had your shout, John Taylor I've had hardly any shout Be be quiet please, John Taylor . Yes. You talked about Bosnia there Yeah. In Bosnia, Dr David Owen is sitting at the conference table with people who've committed genocide every day. Surely the logic in that is that we sh we should sit down the British government should sit down with Gerry Addams. If you take the British army out of Northern Ireland tonight, the U D A would clean up, you would have real civil war, it would be worse than ever, we have to be thankful that catholics and protestants If Owen is talking , if Owen is talking Quiet, be quiet, be quiet be a nice, be a nice man, be a nice man . I am asking this man a question, you have some manners please. If David Owen is talking to terrorists, why don't the British government talk to Gerry Addams? They did and look where it got them. They did that in nineteen seventy two, that's right In nineteen seventy two. That was a long time ago, there's been a lot of water under the bridge, why not talk again ? And a lot of blood under it as well. But I, the reality is this sorry. that if you don't have internment, what are you going to do? Put up with what's going on, because the reality is, there's nobody in Northern Ireland prepared to stand up now and give evidence in open court, because if they do they're dead before the week is done. Or the next day. And time after time after time, there have been cases prepared and whenever they came to court, there was nobody prepared to go into that courtroom . Nicky can I make a point? Excuse me. Well he's one of the people who's prepared to recognize the English, the Scottish and the Welsh on this Ireland, Oh now you see why we can't get peace. I was gonna say this Nicky. Nothing serious. My my gran My grandparents and my grandchildren have this in common. They both spoke about the Irish troubles. It's time to stop that. It's time to say the Irish problem is not impossible, it can be settled between the two sovereign governments, it's time for these people to stop saying, Ulster says no, that is no solution. briefly We've gotta talk to everybody Briefly, briefly tonight er Reynolds and Major issued this statement which said all those claiming a serious interest in advancing the cause of peace in Ireland should renounce of or support for violence if and when such a renunciation of violence has been made and sufficiently demonstrated, new doors could open, do you think the I R A might well respond positively to that ? was done in the time of which set up the Republic of Ireland, get the I R A to declare a truce and talk to them and I think Hang on. The I R A if they're asked to will? They could deliver a truce, they would deliver a truce, and then they should be spoken to. Okay thanks very much indeed that's all we've got time for, thank you. We have received apologies for absence from, er from er Mr . Are there any other apologies which we've received. Thank you. The minutes of the meeting held on the twentieth of October have been er distributed. There is one modification er which has been drawn to our attention that is Mr Ian was present on that day. Subject to that er amendment is it your wish that I should sign those minutes as a true record of that meeting? agreed thank you Er public petitions, none have been received, er other business, none has been notified. Questions none has been received. We therefore move to item one on the agenda which is the local management of primary and secondary schools and I call upon Mr Christopher to introduce the report. Thank you Chairman. The home manual school panel meeting erm on erm for sometime now and I think for those people who don't get to see the government. It is an illustration of how it can, and should be done. Because once the vigorous discussion, rarely does anyone sit and accuse us of having had clearly party political discussions, we had a job of work to do and as a result of that job of work is in front of you now in items one and two. Item one deals with further delegations and aspects of further delegations er to primary and secondary schools. The officers on part of the panel have consulted schools very carefully about the last remnants of possible delegation which might arise and the recommendations are as presented to us in red, set out in section three. Section three point one gives aspects of further delegation which the panel considers after consultation with schools should not be proceeded with in nineteen ninety four, ninety five and justification for that is in the papers which is attached to agenda item one. It should be realised of course that this does not close the door on further delegation each year should indeed there be indication from the schools that they would so wish. Section three point two deals with funding for non pupils with special educational needs. We suggest that this present system which I think many of us have doubts about should continue for practical reasons for nineteen ninety four, ninety five only and for ninety five, ninety six, we will have the benefit of the audit. Three point three has been rather involved er aspects of examining average teachers' salary costs basically will fall down given that we've had a sixty five percent return from schools and we will be able to use this year, coming year the actual mandatory points in determining how delegation of salaries should be proceeded with. Three point four is a small matter, of deputy head whilst it would be inappropriate of course to er schools indefinitely should there be reduction in numbers, certainly we do need a mechanism by which small reductions in numbers don't lead to a tragic and drastic loss of staff. Section three point five is banking needs that er there was quite a lot of current by arrangements, but opt outs use erm, that's an unfortunate word in terms of education and will be allowed for those who are wishing to have alternative arrangements. The panel is still considering the divisional schools library service erm the, they're very clear is at to whether these costs to the library is a fixed cost or a variable cost or perhaps even more to the point that it will need to reach the cost of libraries are fixed and variable and the differing views both within the panel and schools about that and the panel is continuing deliberating research. On that basis I have pleasure in moving the in section six of this report as shown on page five. Thank you. Is there a seconder on that motion? Well further . I further question the policy erm which, erm just mentioned, the average salary issue is that we want, erm that's, that's gonna cost us a million pounds next year, but we are doing it, so there's a million pounds in growth in everybody's er budget and basically everybody's budget when we come to later. Erm on school libraries we're thinking of maintaining school library service and be as, be as fair as possible for schools that are different sizes, that I have erm, that I have erm, erm doing that. . Agreed. Agreed. Agreed. Agreed. Thank you. We move then to item two the management of the schools, nursery and special schools erm this is er mostly by . Thank you. Erm the speed with which we dealt with item one is encouraging or rather it's somebody might be but item two again maybe if proposals which perhaps er a little controversy. There are two separate issues involved here, first of all there is the issue of nursery education, we have no statutory obligation er to devise scheme for the delegation of nursery schools. Nevertheless failure to do so would cause them problems. First of all nursery schools would be dealing with the County Council on a different basis from the vast of, of the schools population and that will give rise to anomalies and complications which would be undesirous and secondly there might be problems particularly if they are considering expanding nursery provision between nursery schools and nursery classes in primary schools. Both of these can be avoided by delegating nursery schools on a similar basis to the delegation which was made for ordinary schools and again you consulted about that and the proposal laid in this report. And as for all special schools there is an obligation to provide a scheme for local management of special schools with effect from April this year er we consulted there was a little bit of chasing which had to take place in which you can see in section four of the report but following that chasing, we now ascertain meeting schools on favourable proposals for or against and once a week that, a view of and also undertaking as you know. On that basis I will propose happily to suggest that those in, in Section Six of this report. and I second agenda and erm we ask for your attention to para three point four er which is the financial part of this budget really and it says that some contingencies in nursery schools should be increased, erm that it is actually allowed for in the later budget erm the tax payer budget will be . Er Mr . Yes Chairman erm, I'm, I should like to draw attention to the paragraph three, two and wonder what happened to three, three, because er we see it goes from my copy goes from three, two, to three, four, so er I don't know whether there is anything in three, three that I have forgotten, but I, I assume now that I which they're are two other . Erm may in fact find in reading the application of formula rather difficult to cope with because they're very special circumstances and of course the small nursery schools. . erm if there's, if there's a query then indeed I, I, three, three might be one of them. . . . The effective speech. . is there an added speech in what you are referring? Sorry, yes I, I, I, I'm a very, I'm two, appendix B appendix B B er C er, but there isn't three, three erm, other than clairify the erm, all solutions were made available to members of the panel as an appendix to the reports to the Policy Panel er, but that they won't to all members efficiency but were made available that's not the point. there appears to be a in as much as there is a, a section, there is appendix B as the three, two, O, three, three . typographical error, next business . I am assured that it is just a typographical error They would say that wouldn't they. . We are after all teaching these children to count which children? money that motion has been added to. Agreed. Thank you very much. It seems that you all want to hurry on to item three A, erm as far as the timetable is concerned . erm is going to make certain clarifications which we'll start with and is going to introduce the report and then to give some explanations. After that we shall move to the three motions and there will be one debate on all three motions. Chairman er, I have a petition that I have been asked to present er at what point do you wish me to do that? I suggest that, that is er brought maybe before the motions immediately before the motions are put, erm after the motions, after the debate as one debate I am proposing not later than twelve forty five to call for the winding up erm speeches by the three movers of the motions and to take the votes erm prior to lunch. If necessary lunch will constitute an adjournment. Thank you er may I then ask if would er give clarifications on certain items. Thank you Mr Chairman, I just want to cover three areas. The first one has already been mentioned and relates to the actual average salary. The second one is in relation to the sheet in front of you headed school meals and third area erm is the typographical errors on some resolutions to, to take you through . As far as the actual average salary is concerned if you look at page nineteen paragraph K a white page on your report, page nineteen, paragraph K and there you will see that you're promised an audit report on the position relating to teachers' salaries, I can confirm that the position is consistent with the remarks that, that were made earlier on, cos you have within the budget here sufficient money to provide for our current estimate of next year's actual earning salary in these schools . . We have returns so far from sixty five per cent of the schools and we expect to have the remaining schools before the end of the month, I wouldn't expect it to change from where we are at the moment but if there was a significant variation then I will be in a position to report back to the Policy Committee at the end of the month but I'm, I'm not expecting that need be the case. The second area relates to erm school meals and you have in front of you an erratum sheet the sheet outlines two areas of er change relative to erm in the main report. Firstly, I am reporting to you that there has been in the current year additional efficiency savings over and above those that previously anticipated er at the level of two hundred thousand pounds and so we are assuming in the budget erm that those can continue into ninety four, five and thereafter, and then we'll see the resolutions have been amended to take that into account and the text of the erratum sheet explains how that's been done. Appendix ten which is attached to the erratum sheet, it's the seventh page, you'll see there that you've got in front of you all the figures that were really erm concerned with in favour of the and amend er the report on lines fifty four A and fifty four B showing two hundred thousand pounds savings on school meals and you will see that reflected in the columns headed Conservatives, Labour and Liberal Democrats and those are consistent with the resolution papers that are in front of you. Another aspect of this change is the erm the change in line fifty eight, where the business and saving in the current year carried forward has been increased to seven, nine, one, from five, nine, one, you can see in the report and you will see that operated in the new appendix ten. The second aspect of the school meals changes are with that alternative meal saving and would best be introduced erm if members were to decide that this is the way we wanted to go from April ninety five rather than in Sept September ninety four as suggested and attached to the report and that delays the savings, but achieves the same saving but not until nineteen ninety six seven and you will see that the figures have been amended and to take that into account and that's on line fifty four B appendix ten. The third area I need to take you through is some erm typographical amendments to the resolutions that you have in front of you, so if you just bear with me I proposed to go through those and perhaps if you want to mark them on the sheets as I go through and if I'm going too fast erm just wave. The first erm resolution sheet that you have in front of you is a pink one erm so the Labour group there are no typographical errors on the pink sheet. . . . . I have to say these, these are documents in terms of the addition. Erm the next erm feature is the yellow one for the Liberal Democrats, there's one Liberal Democrat typographical error and that's on the second page page four of the resolutions and you'll see that in the second column there's a total three, three, three five, that should be amended to, sorry three, three, three five that should be amended to three, one, five, five and then where it says nine the resource budget immediately below that nine, four, five, ninety four five O, it's three hundred and sixty thousand, three hundred and sixty million, six hundred thousand, that stays the same. The figure that is three, six, one, nine, two O should be changed to three, six, one, seven, four O. Yes. is everybody with me on that one? . . Again the appendix ten figures reflect the, the actual position, all we're doing is amending the resolutions and turn to the blue sheets There are dozens. And the first typo typographical error on the blue sheets is erm item six F. The first figure for section eleven should be three, three eight rather than three, three four and the two totals at the bottom of paragraph six should read three, one, O, eight and two, nine, three, zero. They're academic anyway turn over the page to page six paragraph eight, item D eight D strategy, the figure's is a hundred and six and it should be one, five, six God. and the total should be one, three, three, six in that column . crap. and that's it thank you very much . . Thank you, er Paul, erm I'm now ask er to introduce , County Chairman, I'm pleased to present to the committee the report of the head of finance and myself on each resource budget in nineteen ninety four I think I should start by stressing the process through which we have gone in order to prepare this report has been somewhat different this year from that which we followed in the past and . on, on past experience. . There has been more expensive consultation with head teachers and the governors than has been possible er before and I hope the result of that it is reflected in the pages that you have in front of you. I am grateful both to the Education spokespersons who put a great deal of time in, in order to carry out erm their preparations towards this report and to and to take part in the consultation exercises and to my own colleagues. Erm the fruits of that work will be revealed in the decisions that are made er later on today. I am not intending to go through the report in detail erm but I hope that I we will now need to draw attention to one or two issues erm which are of particular concern and which emerged through the consultation process. First of all the issue of increasing pupil numbers. I am sure that we are all delighted that numbers in schools are now rising because it can be a very difficult situation in which to work when er a head teacher and governing body find themselves trying to manage a continuous decline. At the same time that does create pressures upon the school and in particular it creates pressures upon you in terms of finding the money in order to ensure that those pupils are resourced adequately. You have, therefore, erm a proposal for a figure of over five million pounds to meet the demands of increased pupil numbers er next year and of course that will be a continuing pressure for the future. Secondly, I know that this committee has over a time been concerned about the resource needs of primary schools. We've all been aware of the extent to which the local management formula er has made clear erm the rather er significant difference between the resourcing of pupils in their families primary education and their early years of secondary education. . I hope you it will give particular attention to that issue er in your del deliberations later this morning. Nursery education is an issue which is being drawn to your attention I know over again a number of er months and years. Hertfordshire's position on nursery education is a good one, by comparison with very many other local authorities including many counties. It is an area to which the County Council has given priority in the past. That does not change the fact that as far as parents are concerned if there is no nursery school or nursery class available to them then for them there is no provision at all and I know that you will want to address the question of whether you can find additional resources for nursery education er in the course of the debate. I would also I think put in a word for the work of the joint po policy panel erm which is shared between this committee and the social services committee because it seems to me that it is not for us to be thinking that there is a group of children for who nursery education is necessary er or desirable and a different group of children for whom something else erm is necessary and desirable, largely because of their parents' position. We do have to look at all our pre-school children as a group who have similar means as they grow and they learn and they develop and I hope that we can continue to push for a co-ordinated approach to the whole range of services that we are o offering to that group of children and to their families. Thirdly, special educational needs has been an issue for this committee in the past and will no doubt continue to be an issue in the future. We are continuing to experience a significant er pressure from schools in terms of requests for form assessment and statementing of children with special educational needs. In the current term we are receiving requests at the rate of something like twenty five per week and of course that has the implications both in terms . of handling them through the, through the assessment and statementing process and it has implications in terms of finding the resources to support those children once the statements of provision are, are drawn up. You will not, therefore, be surprised to see a number of items in er the budget report which relates to special needs issues. It is an attempt to ask you to consider to maintain the sort of progress that we have been making erm in past years, but it's a problem is not going to go away. At the present time it is being compounded of course by the er effects of nineteen ninety three Education Act with all that that Act implies or tightening up er many of the processes and procedures that we follow in dealing with special educational needs, we have a host of new draft documents for consultation from the Department for Education. Many of them received just over Christmas and parents and schools are looking to us to give them help er in providing for what is a very rapidly moving situation. Section eleven, Grant you have discussed with this Committee on a number of occasions. I know that the concern is shared right across the Committee about the implications of the reductions which the government is proposing in Section eleven, grant. I think I told you some months ago that I would be asking you to consider that . in the course of your budget debate and er true to form I've brought it in front of you this morning. The need to prepare schools and help to help schools prepare themselves for the erm review of the national curriculum the changes that they will have to deal with and in particular I think, erm to help secondary schools to come to terms with changes in key stage four and the likely erm opportunities there will be for a more diverse curriculum including eventually er the opportunities for more vocational programmes in schools and to assist schools . to build on their own interest and commitment to erm deliver improved pupil attainments at sixteen and, and at eighteen, nineteen, in response the national education and training targets is an area which should not be forgotten. A number of these things that I have already raised this morning are perhaps are, er primary phase issues rather than secondary but we must remember that the pressures on secondary schools continue as in the primary phase and finally another concern which you are all very well aware of and which particularly if you're governors you will have drawn to your attention constantly is erm the continuing concern about our educational building stock both in terms of its adequacy as regards the size and the capacity of the accommodation at, where some schools are concerned its need for repair and maintenance work and its need for adaptation to meet the new demands of the curriculum. Er you have er a substantial er appendix within your er agenda papers which set out proposals from the building's policy panel which would help you to deal with some of those issues. I shall be very brief and simply mention that a number of the savings erm and the increased income that is available to, to avoid savings are the result of your own policies developed over a number of years and I hope implemented with a degree of further manage managerial action which has actually given you some money to spend, erm which will avoid you having to make er painful cuts in order to fund a new growth and in particular I would highlight the significant movement that has has now taken place, children from special educational needs provision outside the county, back into the county. Erm th the reduction in the cost of discretionary awards which is partly the result of the policies that are partly also changing the, in the national situation and increased recruitment funding and in an area into which officers put in a great deal of time to try to make sure that we do the equivalent they should be getting. It is a relief I suppose today, that I am able to speak to you on the basis erm of financial output which is a good deal more favourable than we expected even six months ago. Indeed I think we frightened some schools six months ago erm not by any means er wi malice aforethought if er, because we all thought that the financial situation might be very much worse than it is. Even so, the range of . pressures that this Committee faces and the need to try to balance out the sufficience of needs across a wide range of interest groups and a wide range of, of er pupils and schools means that your decisions are never easy. You need also a course to be provident for the future in terms of ensuring that you will be able to continue to discharge your responsibilities in years to come. It won't be easy erm but the decisions are now for you to make. Thank you Chairman. Thank you er . Erm the John is now are going to explain certain aspects of the er . Thank you Chairman. I just want to draw attention to three major components within the committee report. Erm the first is the base resource budget which is set out on page four, table one. The base resource budget started . with the ninety three, four budget, of three hundred and forty two and a half million and er through the addition of certain growth items most notably that requires the demography for the additional pupil numbers we establish a base resource budget there of three hundred and fifty nine and a half million. A seven million growth over the current ninety three four budget. The second area of the report which I would want to draw your attention to is that area concerned with growth and savings and a number have put forward in sections seven, eight, nine and ten of the report, that on pages six, seven and eight and it's got within those growth and savings that we can work to the target set by the policy committee. The high target of three hundred and sixty two point two million and the low target of three sixty point six million. Then thirdly, I would like to draw your attention to the report of the capital programme er policy programme . where they're putting forward a recommendation for a number of minor and major building projects within the capital guidelines and those are set out in appendix er appendices five and six. Finally, attached to your report er there's appendix ten which is the A three sheets the first sheet has not been changed and the first sheet shows the base resource budget which you are being asked to recommend on line twenty one and then it shows a number of savings which can be achieved through efficiency and volume changes. If those are then accepted, you have a second sheet to appendix ten which has been er modified and which has been circulated just prior to the meeting. That sets out the growth of the savings and which it contains in the report with paragraph and appendix reference numbers on them and it sets out for each of the groups, their proposed budgets. It is from that sheet that the figures were transcribed on to the erm on to the pink and the, the, the, the, erm blue and the yellow sheets which have been circulated and which have been amended so that the figures now correspond on both sheets. . Thank you. Next I was going to ask before erm are there any questions of fact, I don't want anybody anticipating the debate but are the any questions on fact. Mr Martin . Erm er Chairman, may I ask a question on paragraph four, four and appendix three, that's on page four and appendix three on the increased percentage on school milk charge? I see that percentage is quite high, way above the in the in the inflation figure er at seven point five per, er percent and I wonder if I could have an explanation for the reason for that very high increase. The er percentage is identified at the top of appendix three, annexe one of appendix three . Er let me come back on that issue the er right, well the E E C have cut their grants of all school milk I think you'll find certainly on that being discovered I would imagine that it's similar to the County Council. Thank you. May I ask er, er Mr that it would, whether she would now er pass forward the petition. Erm I gather you wish to just present the petition Yes. at this stage but you wish to speak during the debate Tha that is right Chairman,I I have a petition from the Watford Indian association containing seventy five signatures. Er it is about the future provision of section eleven which appears in the main report, you will no doubt appear as part of the budget debate. I think you can see if you look at the er, er around the chamber at the amount of interest that this er has aroused and the, the header referred to the number of other petitions and er, er letters that have been received. Therefore this time, I will just hand it to you Chairman and er, er reserve my rights to . Thank you very much. Thank you. I acknowledge this er receipt of this petition and I'm glad to see the er, er support of the present will change. . Er I understand that er Mr is now ready to respond to the questions. Yes, well erm it it isn't the effect of the changing er E C grant that's elsewhere in the budget and legislative changes item with the increasing cost there er, if you can change the grant or for instance where we're getting less grant from the E C. What it is, is reflecting the intervention crisis of milk oh, oh the cost of milk undoubtedly . going up . it is increasing the price in line the increase in cost of milk So just that, further clarification if I may, we are passing the increase er cost of milk on in the charge that we're making? yes. Thank you. Right now to read er we first call upon Labour er Bob to move the motion standing at the erm . give them some wellie but I don't think I'll do that, erm . . sorry, erm this budget has a very long gestation period er I'm on version twelve I think at the last count and I hope there isn't gonna be a version thirteen. Erm I ought to thank everybody erm, officers, members, head groups, service groups, unionists,petitions and all who've written to us. We've taken all this into account, erm I'm not sure all groups have tried to do that, erm but we have tried to please everyone, we do have some particular priorities and we do want to make significant improvements in service where we can and not necessarily looking for cheap publicity by increasing in lots of places as some people are supposed to of done so where one concludes sometime a significant amount of money in but will have a noticeable difference to their essential service. I am going to go through the pink sheet, I think that's easiest if I do that erm on the top of your pile first the base budget,an this and return to give increase the expenditure is the five million pounds or so needed for the increased number of pupils. Now we're meeting that in full and I'm glad to see that all three fiscal groups er proposing to meet that in full. Of course last year that didn't happen and last year hidden away in the first part of the er the budget papers was this cut in the amount of money going to each pupil erm in education in secondary school, so this year we are not doing that we're going to meet the full cost of so in that sense the formula will be unchanged, and of course there's growth er later in the budget and both primary and secondary schools in terms delegated budgets. We've have already mentioned the million pounds extra for salaries. There's another cost of a million pounds which results from a change in government policy of the cost of government policy, now this is including the er unfair funding of G M schools and including the loss of that was just, just mentioned. Now another of those things will be increased service, that's stand still, that's the best way to stand still. There are other elements later which, which imp improve the coordinated pension for each pupil. Erm well that base budget is rather higher than we are expecting and the time when, the policy committee set its targets for each of the service committees. It's about eighty million pounds higher than we were expecting it. So whereas the policy committee were allowing us three point five million grant maximum, on top of the er base budget, now course that's reduced because with cash limited to the total on to the base plus, so getting a lot less than with the group so they might say increase to about two and a half million rather than the figure we had earlier. So in net terms we can have maximum, we won't go to this in the current till next year, erm two and a half million pounds of growth. That's roughly about the same hours as the government's just decided to spend on sending the Parent's Charter to every household in Britain, I think that's gonna cost over two million as well. Erm the government's there are telling parents what they ought to do. This hypocritical exhortation er which is government policy these days erm is costing them same amount of money, they're actually spending intending, increasing erm education division. I use the phrase hypocritical exhortation, because I know Jim is sitting there with a tape recorder and taking note of all the words we are using today our dictionary so I think the phrase hypocritical exhortation I said three times in relation to . in relation to the Conservative party's current policy back to basics and all that I think is the appropriate expression to bear in mind. Erm, okay let me go on now to er the next section of the, the er resolution, which follows the report in terms of savings erm in para seven of that seven and para eight. Now all groups have savings. Erm another piece of that service on the great wall of justice around this morning erm, I the officers to take certain elsewhere. Moving on to the row on paragraph eight, again all three groups are agreed er on this except with one I think exception of a certain group. Er no one exception, it is to not allow appropriate expenditure on section eleven. Erm both the Labour and the Liberal parties, erm think it's extremely important that we maintain this provision for the curriculum pupils who might wish to have petition early and we will maintain in full so the current level of provision under section eleven will be May next year, which puts a large sum on the money into that, this is growth in expenditure, the making up of government cuts, increasing the money we're spending, it's not increasing service, it's simply continuing the current current policies but it will continue as it is now. Er against the cost of government changes so this last part of this budget is actually the cost of making up for government cuts and section of and we're disappointed that Conservatives decided to cut the section they were funding for next year. I don't know how much they're cutting it, but the figures change again today no doubt. Er so let me move on then to erm the growth areas. Well the growth area section in ten, part of that is again, again, maintaining this level of service, er so if I move on to er the savings under paragraph nine, bottom of the pink sheet. I'm going to say a word about the efficiency savings on school meals and the proposal from the Conservatives bringing this alternative meal system. Now we couldn't do it anyway next year, we'll have to do it the following year as we've heard earlier. Erm now I'm interested in this proposal, so I tried that on my daughter last this is erm the menu, this is the menu of which erm is being used in some exp as an experiment in some schools, you have fish fingers one day, Monday beef stew, then hot dogs Wednesday, battered fish Thursday and turkey jackets on Friday. Erm with very little choice, now I gave this to . my daughter, who's sixteen and also her school mates and she said, well where's the beef burgers? where's the beef? so, so I'm dubious about this in terms of quality of nutrition, in terms of choice being offered and I think we need to look a lot more closely at this before we jump into agreement, change or in the system. It couldn't happen anyway, in the next financial year, it'd have to be the following financial year. Now I think that the whole school meals issue, not just this, but also the way in which cost savings are being achieved at the moment in schools. Erm needs looking at by members. We need members need to get a grip on what is happening and my wife suggests this, that the panel erm rather than setting up a new panel, look at the whole issue of school meals, this and other issues. I'll get a load of erm in some ways. As long as the nutrition is kept, as long as choice is available as long as they're popular with kids, then erm it might not be the . Okay so I was on savings at the bottom of erm the sheets. Er we are grateful to the Education Department for finding this two hundred thousand and er the, the . certain departments save as well, one of the payments I'm sure and again it's not a direct cut in the short places. So growth savings in terms of erm provision in Educational Service direct. So I can now move on to the next page which is the growth we're proposing, given the saving, given the splendid things that are allowed by the erm, by the . Now there are four significant areas. First . there's total here of a million pounds in the er next financial year when er part Inland Revenue and part of . which will find well in excess of a thousand extra nursery places. Now all is quite clear in the consultations, certainly the one we have with the, the heads, whilst that they didn't want to continue the previous policy of expanding their tradition by increasing class sizes. We are absolutely clear on that, it came over quite clearly from heads, the previous policy of increasing class sizes and therefore not spending any more money but claiming we're doing a lot for nursery education, the previous policy erm was not one which they wanted to support. If we're going to increase nursery provision, we've got to do it by putting, putting money where our mouths are, huh, putting our money where perhaps some Conservative government peoples' mouths are as well, and they're all very keen to will the ends but they're not so keen to will the means, anyway this is the means, there's a million pounds here erm, next year we we effect , and other members can speak about that and the work that they first have erm, I do notice that, that the latest report from the erm commission on on education and the book we all had to read does give us this first priority, er provision in nursery education particularly in areas, er deprived areas. If you read that er book er from the Commission you will find their very first goal is in relation to nursery education in deprived areas and the panel's looking at that, looking at indicators of, of deprivation as well as erm the . Moving on let's have a talk about the primary school budgets, we're proposing a million pounds here for primary school delegated budgets er we assume that the schools have used that largely by non-contact time for the teachers. Er we can't tell them how to use the money, we presume they will do that, erm this is a significant increase on the amount that the Conservatives seem to be suggesting which is just I think deputy heads so there are a hundred and forty thousand er deputy heads to go . Er moving on swiftly . er the next big area, again there's another million pounds in total for special educational needs erm and provision for pupils so if you add up section C, that's the to schools of budgets and the included, that comes to another million pounds sum of budget. Now we notice that whilst the other groups are agreeing the officers that we actually buy sports they're not putting money into delegated budgets now, I, I, I was a teacher, a head teacher and I was told that the erm, the essential, the educational departments finding more money for devices and to give advice to school, now, they're all unnecessary as it is, I would say, we are the ones that carry out the job, we're on the ground, we've got to do it. Huh it's not good helping us to do it, we need money to, to do it within schools, so we are proposing an increase in the delegated budgets of both primary and secondary schools, special educational needs that's about five per cent on the current six million pound allocation, which alone is based on free school meals,should make a future upon the special needs audit. Moving down, I am not going to comment on the Conservative resolution, erm there's all sorts of cuts in there and lack of growth, I am going to ignore it actually, the Tories are so far out of touch, huh, on, erm both nationally and locally, totally out of touch with what people think and that the government will obviously untouched, we all know that, but I'm surprised and disappointed the Conservative opposite are also out of touch and the figure is way out from both the Liberal and the Labour way out, and with all the consultations it's had. The they're cutting everywhere and they're growing erm . I am not going to bother with a certain group. . like attack I don't necessary . erm, so if I move on then, now to eight D which is forty the fund, we have written into the resolution, huh, let's be clear about that. Erm how we want that fund to be distributed. We discussed this at the panel and they . proposed that we should in effect give the money to erm a non county body involved in this , to allocate, to work out both the basis of the allocation and the allocation funds in this order, we think that's inappropriate, If we're putting up money then we should also have the responsibility for allocating them among a until the done and the done, so I'm at all, or whether our council or something to be set up in the future should have equal control of that, that money. Erm I've given a zero for all the effects because they of money erm if it i if, if this idea works well then we consider that growth next year as well but to be prudent wh why didn't you justify the service environment rule, to be prudent, erm, I, I have assumed that will be a proper effect and therefore I'm not assume the potential of next year's base budget. I would like to think Mr that you are coming towards the end Oh yes Here, here can see I'm . Erm the next item is similar to that education which I shall speak to you later and then erm at the moment. on a couple of programme, we put some money into this er together er more er, we notice that the Conservatives haven't, I think that's all I want to say on, on that . Erm now in general terms, this budget keeps within policy guidelines and I am grateful to Environment Committee for sticking to their lower level and help us out as mentioned yesterday. The Labour group will keep within the government capping limits, obviously we will, and therefore the council tax increase is getting no more than about four percent, so you can't claim all this growth is gonna, well it certainly can't count all this growth is going to er, with this ma , massive increase in Council Tax. The average Council Tax payer, the council tax can't be more than, around four percent erm which reminds me of the last miracle budget we had, ninety eighty nine I think it was, again a Labour budget which I think was three point nine per cent increase then and the lowest rate of increase for twenty years erm and the highest level of growth erm . . erm again if any of the the increases under . The Tories cut it as soon as they got back in power. We're putting it back again and this time we're gonna make it stick Yeah. Just to conclude, this is the best budget education's had for many years, it's good news for schools, it's good news for council tax payers and mostly importantly it's good news for pupils and I hope you'll accept that. . Thank you, is er anyone prepared to second that? . . Thank you. And now we call upon er Paul to present the er Liberal Democrat er . Yes, thank you Chairman, I hope to be slightly er more brief erm, in proposal of the Liberal Democrat budget of er, er three, six O point six million which I would remind with your permission is the er the minimum target er, er suggested by, by . Er I think we must remind ourselves that er this year's as I say is by no means er generous and for that reason we're not aiming higher, not because we wouldn't like to, but because we recognize the, the restrictions placed from elsewhere. I think this is one of the chairman because there was so many horrendous forecasts in the summer and autumn about the S S A that when it was announced you know we thought it was goods news and of course it wasn't , erm so this is why they're trying to be prudent and we have kept in our proposals to the erm, has already mentioned that er, thank god, the er democratic growth has been covered this year and so on, erm, plenty of other things that we would like to see erm to comply with the government's own legislation erm but they where with all. . I would like to extend my thanks also to the officers who have worked er very, very hard er both sides of the Christmas. Er I think I am on version ten, I don't know whether that's one or two more than , but er, the officers have worked, worked very hard and I'm very grateful to them, erm I'm also very grateful to the primary heads, secondary heads, their own staff associations, and the representatives of the governors for whom Hilary, Bob and I have met, and er we've listened very carefully to what they have to say and we've done our modest best to er to er use their priorities as well as our own perhaps political one, we've looked at the educational value er, I suspect more than the other two groups erm than the political sum. Erm I have thought that the same is listed in paragraph seven er and the growth of paragraph eight were non, non-controversial and er would have received all party support but I . Er but of course I I must say something about section eleven funding, this whole section under funding, er is er featured in, in, in this section and er, er I'm not too sure what the Tories are playing at er, unlike Bob I am not going to condemn them out of hand now, being a Democrat I want you to hear what they have to say and then we'll roast them this afternoon . erm and while we're talking about er, er . Conservatives, this government has perpetrated some dastardly things . in recent years but among the worst must be the reduction by the Home Office of taxable funding Here, here, here. Not because they granted its continued necessity, your sanction will continue providing someone else pays. They say they can't afford it, we say that we must afford it. Not from the space of pity of certain members of our community or even of generosity but purely from investment and common sense. If we fail to help these children now they will not be able to contribute to the social economic wellbeing of the nation and may cost us in time more social and financial in, in, in the future, so it's good investment, we're friendly with them, we, we do sympathize them but it's only common sense and good investment that we fully recompense that the to the level it shouldn't be er by the Home Office that is to replace fifteen percent o of seventy five, I think seventy of . Assuming there is a majority if not unanimous approval for savings in both in paragraph seven and nine analysis in paragraphs eight and ten. I'll try to make it brief because Bob has er mentioned this and has pretty well er all party support to, to the savings, er the reduction of two percent in the erm, it's not quite devastating but following the er drastic restructuring of the, of the department in the last two or three years, is quite significant erm er I, I, and I think that er we must thank the, the director of and, and er volunteering if you like because in 's report erm th ,th , these, erm the, the savings. Erm there's enough I think enough has been said on, school meals, it's those, they're only in, in the, both were identified with efficiency savings of er Joanne erm in school meals without I hope because in the content or the, the nutritional value of the basic meal. Here again I've got to reserve comment er on, on what the Tories are proposing for, for, for next year, erm you know once you condemn it out of hand we like Bob says he's got an open mind, and I'm glad to hear it er we also have an open mind on this, but we, we'd like to hear more er of what's in the debate before we before we comment. Er so with these three measures plus the seven hundred and one thousand estimate er underspent th this year to carry forward, we have er about a million and a half to use against er further grant and of the options listed in section ten er, ours are not dissimilar from the, er from and I best pick the . erm we have, we, the Liberal Democrats have made no secrets in, of the fact, locally and nationally that er within the nursery places are our top educational priority. Er Mr Major pretends it's his but Mr Patten, if I understand Mr Patten rightly, says the country can't afford it, so here again if they can't afford it, I certainly can't county, county must afford er at least the six hundred and thirty five thousand which is in our proposals er that will be nine, sixty five in a full year, to find nine hundred and twenty extra places. We've been precise on this because this is, if you look at your agenda papers, er quite detailed suggestion, one of the quotas, one of the options er in fact that we, the same about officer's, erm nine twenty er the basis er, er is, is erm a very near to the that's thirty five including capital, er we had to go fur further, obviously and, but we picked the Labour figure er and I wonder a little because the advice we have is that once we go over nine twenty places become much more erm, unfortunately costly. Our next priority like er, Labour says like a the different degrees is er the primary schools er many of which as we all know that we've been struggling and to cope with inadequate budgets. We propose therefore to increase delegated funding, fund the schools by one point one million er, er approximately four and a half thousand per head average per school. Er coming next to our priorities on special educational needs, erm I attended a, a and conference as recently as last Saturday and I didn't know it all already, I did, er I am now determined that . we will do all we can for, well especially at the centre and while, whilst acknowledging the need for it to resource at the schools at this conference the voluntary agencies, parents and even teachers admitted the greater need for specialists at the centre, that is we want more education psychologists, advisors of all sorts and er, therefore supporting options er at ten, one C, small roman one, and small roman three on the agenda, but er that is reluctantly not er not small roman two. This means that erm four hundred and ninety thousand extra in addition to nine hundred thousand in, in, in paragraph eight. Erm I know the Conversatives have also has gone for one three and not for two. Er I assure you there's been no conclusion on this and I am sure will agree with me here, here . erm the rest of arbitrary proposals maybe considered small comparison in, in financial terms at least but er differ a little if any in, in educational value, that's two hundred thousand to boost the fourteen and nineteen strategy, er I think there must in the present climate in which we have to regard the vocational content of education as well as the academic. Two hundred thousand to improve the provision for extra pupils, here again er lot's come out of er, the, the , but er ministers wax eloquent about what we should er do about this mounting problem of erm, of er truancy exclusion, discipline in general, erm, they tell us what to do, they tell us, er we must have er referral units and what have you, but then dont' give us any funds to do the job, but I'm glad to say that all three party agreement that er that two hundred thousand or so, it to improve the er the, the service for extra pupils. Erm we must recognize that the, to cope with the expression on that there, that erm we, we must fund, fund this referral unit, erm coming last to capital, erm many of school buildings are in an abysmal and dilapidated position through neglect over many, many years before er, we've given perhaps , erm, but our meagre a hundred and ninety thousand er I've, I admit won't go very far. Er there and er it's therefore er the best use we can make of it, not specifically for any particular school in any particular circumstances as I read in the, that the, that the Tories proposals have been in, on, on, on the issue. Erm I don't think I need to say any more, but I promise to come back later when I've heard what other have, have to say. has already said that the Tories don't seem to have any provision for capital and I'm dying to know why they have as much to say about the additional buildings as anyone else er I'd be interested to know what they say. So finally, Mr Chairman I, I command this modest Liberal Democrat budget to your committee in the hope, not too optimistic er receiving all party support, but I feel it would be considered too modest by one and too extravagant by the other which suggests to me that the moderate unprejudiced er will got this about right I move . Thank you. . May I ask for a seconder for that motion. Yes, I'll second it er and I reserve my rights. Thank you. I have now of course gone er Mrs Birmingham er to present the Conservative motion. Thank you Chairman, erm I'm delighted to be the last person to present a set of budget proposals as it gives me the opportunity to draw attention to some facts that seems to have been overlooked by the representatives of the other two groups. Indeed I believe there's a distinct possibility, that the force of persuasion in my arguments will bring the other two groups over to the Conservative point of view. . optimistic . . Mr may not attack Conservatives . but of course that doesn't leave me much to talk about,becau , however he managed to go on for about ten minutes that all? because the Labour and Liberal Democrat budgets, as far as I am concerned are tweedle dum and tweedle dee, very little to choose between them. Labour make proposals and the Liberal Democrats in effect say . Now clearly we are not going to join the need to exercise, because Chairman no one has mentioned or drawn attention to the fact that the preamble to the budget paper contains a very distinct warning, that in addition to the estimated resource gap in nineteen ninety four . whether it's nineteen ninety, ninety five which is relatively small, it widens to a potential sixteen point five million, fourteen point five million minimum, in ninety five, ninety six and to twenty seven point two million in ninety six, ninety seven. Even if those figures are reduced by the two million each year that leaves a very large financial mountain to climb in the years ahead and I apologise for beginning with that gloomy prognosis but it does get better, thanks to our proposals. The Chief Education Officer sorry Director also contain these warnings in her introduction, she reminded us that we would have to discharge our responsibilities in the years to come, she reminded us that decisions are never easy and she reminded us that we need to show that we are capable of firm managerial action. Now I see no evidence in the er proposals of the other two groups of those qualities, there I do not see coherent form of covering for the contingencies that we could face and I see a real unwillingness to indicate how they would tackle priorities. That has always been the case, we have always been criticised for doing it but I find it outstandingly noticeable this year. Our budget reflects our commitment to our schools, it aims to improve the level of service to our schools, particularly in the area that's been identified the schools themselves, by the schools themselves as one of their highe their highest priorities, that was special needs. We also aim to prepare more four year olds for full-time education and we aim to provide incentives to schools that wish to diversify the fourteen to nineteen curriculum. We are also able to fund this year this very substantial increase in pupil numbers. This isn't always possible as we saw last year and as we have been reminded, that was not an easy decision and in fact it's one of the reasons that we haven't put extra money into the primary schools this year. First of all we couldn't find it and secondly the secondary schools had a defacto decrease last year. Given our commitments to the programmes that we've set forward and given our commitment to the council tax payer, remember that person again not mentioned today . the question may well be asked, how are we going to fund it? First, regretfully, we do not feel we can enter into an open-ended commitment to fund the shortfall in section eleven. We believe that we do, we believe that a shame shame . review of the service should be undertaken immediately, with a view to perhaps reducing the number of bases . and perhaps rationalising a certain tier, keeping the teachers and assistants who are actually in the schools as our top priority and maintaining a careful balance between schools with very high needs and schools with isolated children who are actually even more in need of support and know how. We are committed as was, as we've decided last June to retain the programme until September nineteen ninety four. Thereafter we would wish to phase in the reduction in staff to match the Home Office funding, half in ninety four, ninety five and the rest in ninety five, ninety fi ninety five, ninety six. It is reasonable to expect with a re an extensive programme like, like section eleven that there has been a build up of expertise, hat there has been a build up of educational resources and why should one area of the service be exempt from examination or assessment. We've done a review of the service, we did a review of field centres, we really do not accept that one area, no matter how worthwhile and I've talked to you . on many occasions to the excellent work done by and the section eleven team, but we do not believe that any area is entitled to automatic exemption. Here, here practice. We don't think to have the sixty to ninety transport debate yet again, this route remains committed to a policy of reducing the amount we spend on transport because that ultimately benefits our schools and with this in mind we will reintroduce our grace in favour charge of sixth formers and college students. . The existence of the hardship fund make absolutely sure that economic considerations need not deter pupils from attending college or sixth form rubbish but to introduce a blanket free charge when some are willing and able to make a contribution to us is a nonsense. Members of the committee will see that savings continue to come through on the school meals service and this is to a very considerable extent, the result that the ethos of the previous Conversative administration which ran a tight ship and positively encourage deficiency. A number of the savings in this report come into that category. I believe that we must look very closely into the alternative meal. It uses modern technology to provide an extremely cost effective meal and it's substituted with fresh items every day. I spoke not to an individual child but to the head of school in Hatfield where the scheme was piloted and I have to say he was, he neither rhapsodised nor condemned. He had an open mind and said there were pluses and minuses and for it, I think if it was pointed out in future years, that an extra mil one point four million pounds could be available for school budgets he would look at it perhaps a little differently. Maintenance allowances for college students, well we signalled fairly clearly last June that we feel that maintenance allowances for college students should be the concern of the F A F C. There has been no positive response to our representations so perhaps it's time to be more firm to the extent of phasing out funding and putting the F A F C on the spot. My colleague Chairman of the Youth and Community Panel and Policy Panel will speak on our proposals in that regard. So Chairman just to in conclusion, we continue, we are proposing to continue this daily expansion of nursery places, our half a million pounds this year would be divided up roughly three hundred and fifty one thousand pounds on revenue and a hundred and fifty thousand pounds on capital and would gain us over four hundred new places, that's in line with the type of expansion that we achieved . last year, and we believe that that type of steady growth is very is, is, is desirable. Special needs again we've highlighted, we have put in a token on the er in the primary sector erm it's a notional amount, clearly we can't tell the schools how to spend their money but it seemed to us that the increasing in managerial role of primary deputy heads, they would welcome er a small increase in non con in non contact time. That's an area of course that we would wish to increase eventually but looking at the protected figures, a large increase in the primary schools delegated budgets this year could result in, in a de facto cut to the secondary schools next year. Some of the decisions clearly are easier at than others because we get a certain concensus on the easy ones, while we've gone to some of the more difficult ones to exemplify behind the changes that need to come about that it will not have a direct impact on schools and their school budgets and the children, but will promote the services we've always done. This is a budget Chairman that builds on the achievements of the last four years, the care for our schools and it takes into account that the future will not be as rosy as we would like and allows for contingencies. In harsh numerical terms we didn't accept the Policy Committee guidelines, we felt that they in some ways were over generous and we aimed for, we purposely, deliberately set ourselves lower targets with point we're two point six million below the Liberal Democrats for nineteen ninety four ninety five. Three point five million below Labour, but if you look savings in the pipeline of four point three million against the Liberal Democrats and four point eight million pounds against Labour. Let me remind the Committee, it's not too late to cross the political divide . and it's not too late to vote for common sense and careful management. . Thank you, er do you have a seconder? Formerly seconded but I reserve my right to speak. Thanks very much. I would like to at this point to review the timing that we set earlier on Who said that? Who said that? we could pass straight to that and er sort of go to lunch erm what people wish to do perhaps . if we stick to the original proposed target, we'd only be now some twenty five minutes for general debate and I would be, this is probably therefore a serious issue Yes. one of our serious of the year, we should er extend that debate er we could extend as late perhaps half past one for lunch or we could bring it to half way between half past one, so the feeling in respect of that . Would you . stick stick to twenty five minutes of debate and then close Yes Yeah Absolutely I would like then to draw your attention to standing order C page, paragraph four, all speeches shall be concise and relevant to the matter in hand. Pity you didn't do that do that a bit earlier Chairman. . Relative to the matter in hand I take it to mean that it is to do with the budget er to prepare for this County and do not er to be the irrelevancies of machination in other places. I would hope that they will, people will not, will be speaking primarily on the variations of the previous speeches that have been made. We should not be having the same speech from the same group on the same issue at any point and also I would hope that where there is agreement between the groups that there is not time spent in . debating the agreement. Finally, I propose to call no person more than once to accept that the movers will have the opportunity of winding up at the end and I would please ask you to wait until you have been called. I have an indication from Mr that he wishes to speak. Thank you Chairman for this . After the behaviour yesterday, someone claiming to be spokesman for the Tory group on the environment backed up vocally by these minions, I said to my group today, no more Mr nice guy. . but I needn't have bothered . because it is becoming increasingly difficult to be nice to the Conservatives particularly when you produce something like this Look at some of the points here Oh shut up. . look at some the points, I've heard, I've been heckled yesterday don't heckle me this week the section of level funding. What sort of misguided speech was that? were they dance about it or trim here, what they're saying very simply and this is relevant to the people who are listening to us today, is that they are not prepared to restore the cuts made by the government which they have got elected. They are taking responsibility, either they agree with their government or they do not agree with their government, but to pretend that somehow we can not at all, some of the cuts that are made , that the f the other, does not convince us, I'm sure it does not convince the people on our right and even less more convincing than the people who are listening to us today. Over the page it gets rather worse, child under sixteen to nineteen . A saving is one way of looking at it or profiting from education is another way, apparently what the Conservatives would wish to do, they wish to make people pay for education and there is no other way of looking at it. Reducing staffing in the need of community services, it's only seventy five thousand pounds, but why, what possible justification with rising grants, rising private sector etc., etc., you know the problems out there. What possible justification can there be for that, given the fact the actions are reasonable as they stay this year. Increasing nursery provision, you know it's very amusing actually the press release that had early this year er from er earlier, mid last year in fact . from the Conservatives saying that they believed in nursery education. It's rather late for the press releases on some months later, the press release coming from my group and coming from the Labour group it was a late conversion but not much of a conversion let's face it, the word tokenism springs to mind that's what I've written next to the Conservative line there, totally, and I don't believe in nursery education but they know there are votes in it. We actually put it down in our own manifesto because we thought it was a good idea. Oh there increasing primary schools delegated budget a hundred and forty thousand pounds. Frankly one of your a hundred and forty pounds because at a hundred and forty thousand pounds that is an insult . that is three pence per child per week. It's hardly worth drawing the cheques in certain cases and the capital programme, couldn't see it actually when I looked for it first time, had to go back to the pink sheet and found the noughts, now we're not as generous as we'd like to be, but at least we try. No capital expansion. Now I wonder where and this maybe unduly cynical, but it is difficult to be unduly cynical with that lot over there. This is something to do with grant maintained schools, don't repair schools government comes along and lovely Mr Patten if he's still there . well who's next?,today John Patten tomorrow Chair . said here's some money, here's some money and a point of order you just go Has the debate moved on? I thought we were debating A The, we are debating A, B and we're debating altogether. Yes. that's the the same Yes but not D . Charles . because D is our . . D is our resolution on capital right verdict rather like it in er section eight of . indeed. If there voting on then it's traditional, point of order during the speech, thank you very much and what took me so long. . I thought the Conservative budget is a contemptible budget the people in the people voting or an increase in nursery provision increase in educational provision this is what we are trying to give, the Conservative party are trying to claw back, to cutting our budget, by two point six million pounds, that is not what people voted for and is not what people want. No further discussion necessary on their budget let's get on with the serious business of funding real education in Hertfordshire which we asked and in this particular case the Labour party. Good I you have stepped out of the debate . by a ludicrous budget. The Conservative? and briefly the Labour party, we have certain doubts over certain lines there are similarities, good. Perhaps two sets of people do actually agree on education. These may need to be debated as they were before compromises may need to be rich, but I'm afraid it looks as though it's gonna be a compromise only between two parties, but this isn't a . Thank you. Thank you, er Mrs . Thank you Chairman er tell, very quickly as er my voice is going so I'm going to be very brief on it, for er, two for about two points. The first one is the question on special educational needs. Yes of course we will increase this . er better support and better advice for schools, but I agree entirely with what says, it's no good having the best advice in the world if we can't deliver the er, er, the, the recommendations and one of the things that er has been borne in, on me, when I was sitting on the panel looking at special educational needs that the early identification of the early intervention when there are difficulties which start to arise in schools can save you a lot of money later on and unless the schools have the resources to er, er to meet with the er recommendations which are being made on particular children, then we are asking for trouble there, so that I'm very concerned about the fact that er, the like, like the early one which was er increase that er provision. On section eleven, yes we are along with the Liberals, we are trying to maintain the budget against the government cuts, but don't anybody get away with the impression that that is going to maintain the service as it is at the moment, because we are really to pick up extra pupils. Section eleven was confined to er people of commonwealth origin. The categories have been increased but the funding has not, so that er although this is in as a growth item and although it is being presented as a standstill item, in fact it may not have been a, a, a, a reduction in the service. Section er, I was very surprised indeed that er Hilary asking for a review of the service because in fact all one's experience and I am sure as well tells us that this is a success story, it is something that petition after petition that we've asking to keep it that way, shows that it is one of the services that the County provides which is very much appreciated by the recipients and we can't say that in all County Councils' services but you can say it about er the section seventeen and I think you ought to acknowledge that Chairman. Thank you, Mrs Pauline . Thank you Chairman, I appreciate that erm prudence isn't flavour of the month in the current majority at this County Council and that indeed has been proved by several speeches from the opposition parties that were made this morning you must, however, . In the other parties the other parties we must take heed though Chairman of the warning in the report and that was mentioned by Mrs Hilary , that it's the responsibility of this Council to plan the future needs on the basis of the estimated shortfall in resources that have been forecast. The problem is, it seems that the, both the Liberal and the Labour budgets do precisely the opposite, they've obviously decided to adopt an approach of spend, spend, spend now and hang the consequences for the future. Now I'm a governor of two schools and from this perspective in particular, I'm very pleased to see that as a result of the legacy of previous Conservative administration and the generous S S A proposals for this year, that the Conservative group have been able to put forward a budget which enables schools budgets to be increased fully for demography and inflation and certainly I know that was a great worry this year in many of our schools that that might not be possible so it's good to see that it is possible. The Conservatives were also putting forward of course prudent growth in important areas and one of the areas that I would particularly like to mention is that of nursery education. Following on from the last administration, the Conservative proposals and that it would enable something like four hundred and fifty extra nursery places to be provided. That follows on a steady increase in nursery provision over the last few years. But obviously it must be necessary to waive the statutory sectors, versus the non statutory, so it isn't er possible this year, perhaps to put in as we might do if were to be as imprudent as the opposition parties. What Bob said of course was totally untrue with respect to what the Conservatives did in the past. It is true we did increase the pupil to teacher ratio to one to thirteen in line with the F E er guidelines and that of course did provide some extra nursery places but last year we did put in real resources and actually increased the number of nursery places by about four hundred which involved the development of several new nursery classes, so it is completely untrue to say that the Conservatives attempted to increase nursery education on the cheap. We put in real money into this area. I would also like to nail the lie that the Conservatives don't care about nursery education as put forward by Chris as Mrs already said this morning, Hertfordshire County Council has one of the best records of nursery education in the whole of the country, something like seventy five per cent of the client group currently have part time nursery places. These figures are in the report, we are an authority that has an extremely good record on nursery education and I hope that no one will believe the attempt to try and black the good record that the Conservative and that have the Conservatives had have in this area. The budgets of course proposed by the Liberal and Labour groups, have some aspects which would be desirable. The problem is as they know in their heart of hearts much of what they propose this year is not sustainable in future years. Undoubtedly therefore much of the growth that they've put in is this year's budget, will have to result in schools' budgets being cut in the future. . Now, I think we all appreciate that the Liberal and Labour groups are working to another agenda. They'll of course attempt to claim that any future cuts in schools' budgets are down to lack of government funding. This will not be true if the Liberals and Labour groups con something This is oral history project tape number two of Mr Melville , of eleven, Close, Ipswich in Suffolk. My name is Joyce , the date is the twentieth of August, nineteen eighty seven. This is interview number six of the Fire Brigade. So you put another story on at Road? Yes, so that became the the fire prevention suite, erm and erm still is the fire prevention suite, erm and is well used now again, almost bursting, I should think er with increasing staff and, and work which seems to come each year. When you talk about f fire prevention, what do you actually mean? Yep, well, I mean the objective of fire prevention is to, is to try and make places safer and to alert people to erm to the risks and dangers of fire, before it happens,that that's, the objective is to er try and stop fires happening. Some of it is done by legislation which erm fire officers have to erm put to use er and, and work to erm and then there's a lot of good will advice and, and help that can be given, er and publicity and training and so on which comes under the big wing of fire prevention. I think they call it fire safety now, in my time it was fire prevention but now fire safety which is probably a better word for it. Er so, that task, much of it under legislation, is carried out by fire officers and much of it as I say by good will and erm er advice to householders and bodies and erm big concerns and so on. Does that mean visiting their premises? Yep, yep erm these officers are all trained in, in fire prevention work erm at the Fire Service's technical college at Morton Marsh, and er they practise those skills they learn there over many years erm I'm looking back, I mean the time that I spent in training schools and er and in, in the job er I suppose when you total it all up it must be two or three years away from home really, er in courses you know, in my day we went away on fire prevention training classes six months, six months' course was the, so you went away to the Fire Service college which in those days was at Dorking, a lovely place in Dorking, and you did six months there solid, and then nowadays about thirteen weeks, the courses run about thirteen weeks, and you are constantly fire, fire officers from the ranks of erm probably a Sub Officer, leading fireman in some places, but Sub Officer onwards and particularly Station Officer up to the more senior ranks are away on courses regularly for, it's really updating people erm new legislation coming in, new techniques coming in, erm which have to be these people have to be updated so they are very well trained, erm more so than most local authority people I would think, fire, fire officers are, erm purely because the job is such a wide range of, of things to deal with. That's changed over the years hasn't it? Oh it's changed no end erm particularly the fire safety and firing, fire prevention angle has changed erm the operational side has changed in as much the things are more complicated nowadays buildings are more complicated erm fire losses are greater erm Fire losses? You know as the result of a fire the, the amount of money and goods that er are destroyed in the fire erm chemicals erm have come on the scene which bring with it their own particular dangers and risks from fire and from erm from the toxic effects of chemicals and the endanger to the environment. Was this a new area for you when you came to Suffolk because we have the docks close by, chemicals coming in there and at Felixstowe, Yep. this is an area probably that was new to you? It was erm it's the first time that I'd come across, I mean I'd been a little bit of experience on, on inland waterways in Windsor er which I'd lost when I went to Leicester and Lincoln I came back here of course and now we had the North Sea and the docks and erm that was a new area and a, and a really good challenge erm I particularly got involved with, with things like erm the movement of chemicals which was beginning to increase and coming into Felixstowe and, and er and, and er Ipswich erm and when I think back Felixstowe Dock, looking back, ended where the big jumbo tank, the Calor Gas tank is, that, that was the sort of range of Felixstowe Dock in those days. Look at it now, it's gone right the way back now, with all that land being reclaimed and warehousing and you name it and docks, new docks, so in the past ten years, what a massive development that has become. They wanted to come back even further didn't they? They did. Recently. Yes, they did, but that's a massive development, and with it, of course, the new motorways, you know the, the A forty five, and the A twelve and, and all the new by-passes, the traffic now that er is on the roads there, of all kinds, erm is no one 's business, plus the warehousing arrangements at Felixstowe and, and Ipswich. So, it's a busy area now and erm from a fire point of view the fire risk is, is quite, quite high now, I would've thought, not necessarily dangerously high, but certainly it's increased, gradually increased. So, erm I saw the change. Did you have any, did you have any large scares with chemicals? Yes. In your early days. Well, yeah er we we had a fair amount of chemical er troubles erm mainly spillages, bad packaging, erm a few accidents erm, and very little information in those early days erm there was a lot of nasty chemicals going around which erm very little information followed it and people were being quite seriously injured, firemen included, policemen and others were getting involved with these things, and I got myself involved quite a lot with the various bodies that deal with chemicals, like the Chemical Industry Association, and people of that kind, trying to make things a bit safer, and taking up cases where spillages had occurred and, and accidents had happened er to try to get to the bottom of it and try to improve the situation and er I wasn't alone, most Chief Officers were working that way and certainly the London Fire Brigade did it, did no end of work with producing, what is now commonly known as the coding and, and a system of, of erm er marking containers of chemicals so that people can understand how to deal with them, so that that was quite an interesting area which, even now I'm now retired I still have a little hand in that with er chemicals er in my few moments I have spare I, I get involved with that side, which I enjoy. Erm that is an area where, that and road traffic accidents which has grown considerably in, in the time that I've been in the service in more recent years, which has become more sophisticated, the equipment has become more sophisticated, the techniques have had to be developed to deal with them and firemen are becoming more expert in, in handling these er er situations with, with equipment er which is much more technical, and, and er How has it changed? Well the, the risk has changed for a start I mean with the chemicals there are so many now erm chemicals and so much of it being transported by road, the risk of that and the dangers of accidents must be increased, although legislation has brought in a number of improvements, so firemen have to be very much up to date with that. Do they have special gear for chemicals? Yes they have, very special gear in, in breathing apparatus and protective clothing, er which I didn't have in my early days, I mean breathing apparatus was just beginning to be used. We're talking about Road are we? Yep, now nowadays erm they've got the best, I mean the equipment is excellent, er it came in my time erm my predecessor's time and it's been carried on now and new developments have come in, erm and with, of course techniques in, not only dealing with the chemicals in, in making safe afterwards which is twice as complicated I think, you know the decontamination side, the clearing up, the protecting of the environment from toxic chemicals er which we've all heard about in newspapers, and read reports and seen it on television, these, these accidents up and down the world. How do you stop it getting into the environment, because if you hose it down it will wash down into the drains won't it? Very dan very difficult you've got to take steps of blocking off drains and stopping it getting in the waterways and you, you succeed sometimes, you don't success on other times and this is why er these accidents happen where all the fish and places die and people get contaminated, cattle get contaminated, all sorts of things. We're very conscious of that erm and where, where we offered advice in large places where for instance, where housing where chemicals are stored and all the precautions that are needed are provided and built in, for instance stopping off the drains so that water is contained, providing sloping areas in, in the bottom of warehouses where water doesn't come out, erm monitoring it telling people about it. You almost need to be an architect. Well, fire officer's training does take in a lot of architectural work, you know the safety of buildings and the way in which they're put up, the materials that are used, the strength and the strength of materials and the fire resistance of materials, all that comes into their work. So, it's the range of of knowledge is quite wide, you know, from, from extricating a cat and how to do that er to, to a large modern hotel building, how to protect it from fire, so, so there's quite a lot to learn yep. This is why that the leaning process never ends, it's, it's always on, the new developments come in and people have to be taught, and firemen have to keep up to date with that. For anybody who's interested it's certainly not a boring . I never found it to be a boring job, erm if it is boring I think it's because they're only making it, if they make it that way and I think it's partly due, if they, if people do talk that way then I think it's partly due to the sort of duty systems that people work now, and erm the number of hours they work, and, and strangely for little things like the introduction of television, I think television, very nice in its way but it's killed life on fire stations and in certain areas, cos the whole business of conversation and learning and so on has gone, people would much sooner sit nowadays in front of the television and be entertained for an evening, instead of using all the other skills and, and erm things that are offered to them. Do the firemen at Road still live on site when they're on duty? Yes, oh yes, nobody leaves a fire station once they come on duty no. But, instead of playing cards and talking and making their own enjoyment probably? I might be a bit biased, I think they still do that but I think erm The television has the television has made a difference. I think not only just at fire stations, I think in the whole of life, hasn't it? Yes. Er, home life has changed, I think, because of that. I'm not saying it's bad, necessarily bad, but I think it has changed something and, and it's, I, I certainly saw it when it came onto fire stations in the fifties how life changed in the fire station. And er now it's accepted I suppose and young firemen joining now wouldn't, wouldn't know any different, and they'll probably be able to manage much better than I would on a fire station. Er I often ask what's life like, and the funny thing I've got a son in it now, I've got a son who's a station officer in, in Colchester, and my daughter just married a fireman from, from Road so, so we're still involved Keep it in the family we're still involved, and they tell me that life on a fire station is still very pleasant so I'm sure it must be. When you were talking about the equipment changing for road traffic accidents, in what way has that changed? Well, first of all er we started off with having a, an amount of fire equipment, an amount of rescue equipment carried on a particular vehicle. And what did you have? Er things like er crowbars and bull croppers and er rescue ropes and lines and things of that kind, which are very very simple, stuff you would buy in a hardware shop and probably be able to manage with it. Now things became so complicated that one of the things we did and I think I was partly instrumental in it, was to make sure that we carried this on all fire engines, you know we used to have this one at each divisional headquarters, probably forty miles away. So, in the process of er change we, we provided the basic means for cutting, lifting and pulling er on every fire engine, a little amount of, of equipment, so that if you had a road traffic accident you didn't, the machine that was there, now that was a great step forward. Er we also had one very large, cumbersome machine which carried things like lighting and breathing apparatus, and heavy lifting gear and all the other bits and pieces of rescue equipment, which came along in slow time, now that has been improved upon no end, and they've got a very modern equipment now for that, erm er modern in the sense that new, new pieces have come on, cutting equipment with hydraulic jaws which er just slice through the top of a car roof, whereas we had to cut it with a hacksaw perhaps, or, or another metal saw, we, these can be done with just like cutting through cheese. And time is the essence isn't it? Oh yes In an accident oh yes, and, and er it's amazing those few seconds, how much they can relieve pain and suffering, if you can get people out quickly and, and take away the, the trouble from them. Could it So that's all progress. could a fireman administer first aid? Yes, they're all trained in first aid, erm erm and in the use er we also carry the analgesic gas, now the ones that er nitric oxide which is used in er pregnant mothers for childbirth, they carry some of that now, er which they administer to people in pain and that takes away the pain erm for the time being anyway, until such time as you can extricate them or, or ease the pain or take away the problem away from them that's causing them the pain. So that's a great step forward, isn't it, to, to relieve pain as quickly as that. When did that come about? Oh nineteen sixties we, we introduced that with the blessing of the ambulance people as well, it wasn't done without careful consideration, because erm we didn't want people to, to just erm introduce it without knowing what we were doing and ever since we used it it's been a great blessing. So that's another step forward. Is this equipment carried on a normal fire tender? Erm certainly on the rescue tenders, erm erm on, on each division would have that equipment, it's not carried on every fire engine as far as I know now, erm I, I don't see why it shouldn't but er again I think it's a matter of cost, and, and carrying it about as well and finding the space for it, but certainly it's at hand when it's needed. So, so that's been a great improvement I think, erm in recent years and, and in the erm early seventies we, we also went into the business of providing equipment that could be left at rescues, on site, you know it was always tying up a fire engine by taking it there and, and being tied up so we provided these things which we call demountable equipment, which we commonly call the pods and erm Why did you call them pods? I don't know where the name came from it, it, it's, it's, it's simple and it seemed to work erm Was it local? all it was was a box really, a box which you could get off a, a, a machine and dump it on the ground, erm the idea came from, from er I think dustcarts really, where, where you could sort of tip them up and, and they'd empty, and that, that was this early thought on it er Was it hydraulically taken up? All hydraulically lifted yep With an arm yep, and we developed theo that business here in fact in Suffolk, we were the very first Fire Brigade to, to do it in the seventies, er our own workshops made them erm the units and are now still making them, and the ideas were original ideas on, on, on the equipment and we made about three or four in, in when I retired and I think they made several others now like canteen vans, and erm breathing apparatus, er and so on. So there's a whole range now which requires just one prime mover to lift these pods and deposit them where they're needed, and it's been done in Germany elsewhere, in Fire Brigades elsewhere, certainly in Germany because I went and saw them there as well, and it's a very simple straightforward progressive sort of way of dealing with problems of the Fire Service. Is it a normal fire tender that takes this pod along? No, it, it's, it, it, it's coloured like a fire, fire, fire engine red and all the other things, but it, it's a commercial vehicle a roll-on roll-off type of vehicle, which you can buy commercially and, and adapt for Fire Service use, and there's erm I should think there must be about half a dozen pods now, erm at High Wootton, in fact police services are using it, Thames Valley Police I remember coming up here to, to take the idea back, erm I saw yesterday at Hungerford, er the police there going with their pods to, to More like a cabin? It, it is it's, it's, you design it and you fit it up, and you can just Pentiford Drop it down, in this Pentiford yep, ours is filled with all sorts of gear, for instance decontamination, you know erm after a, a chemical incidence you've got to clean yourself off without contaminating everybody else, and you can do this within a pod, it's been so designed that you can walk in one way dirty, and walk out another way clean, and And how do you clean up in there then? Well there's water provided, there's showers provided, there's, there's clean air is provided, there's dirty areas and it was all well planned and segregated and, and partitioned off and curtained off and so on and, and it does work. What happens to the water then ? It's all collected into, into plastic er cans and you don't use gallons of it, you, you used enough to clean yourself off, and that's collected and then disposed of er under advice and help from the disposal, waste disposal people. The idea is that you don't dispose of it in the drains where it can contaminate. So that's been another step forward I think, in the whole progression, of the Fire Service. What other changes have you seen over the, with the Fire Service at Road, since Road well you came? I think communications has been the biggest change that I saw, erm er from a system which was called the DX system, which is really a very primitive way of calling people by means of generating electric current over some private wires, to fireman's houses and on to fire station. How does it generate? It's generated with a handle and Wound round? Yes, wind them round and this should, should generate a charge which rang bells and sounded bells and then er you lift up a telephone and plug in a jack and, and take a message in that way. Erm in fact telephones, I mean talking back to nineteen forties and fifties, very few people had telephones, and it wasn't uncommon in, in those days on fire engines, where, I know at Salisbury we did this, we took a bike and put it on the back of a fire engine, and if you were the youngest you were told, send the stock message back, or the informative message back, and find the telephone, and you pedalled and find the telephone, and, and you'd get told off when you came back, why you weren't quicker about taking it. Now that was the system. It seems incredible, doesn't it, but like it was the only practical way to do it wasn't it? That's right, I mean you, you looked in, in, in, if you had a fire out in the sticks somewhere, you'd look to see where the telephone was, where if there were any, and then knock on somebody's door perhaps, at two o'clock in the morning and say can I use your telephone, and they weren't very happy sometimes I can tell you. Weren't they? Oh, no and er Hasn't anyone ever come unstuck? Well,the you've heard, I've heard some people being nasty and, and they didn't say no, but it was always, not always it was occasionally done grudgingly, and, and erm in many cases of course it was done willingly, you know come in yes please do, and, and they didn't even want the penny that, that you offered them for the telephone call. Heavy phone call. In the days, in those days yes, but nowadays what is it, it's er such a fantastic erm step forward really, it's all on radio, er where at the press of a button you get radio contact between headquarters and any fire engine, between any officer in the fire engine, you can call firemen by radio at their house, and at the fire station, erm I mean this is, is, is really progress and erm might be complicated, I'm sure it has its problems as well, but for a matter of speed er and computers as well coming in with it, the whole thing now is, is very sophisticated and erm very modern, and I think that's probably been the, probably the biggest step forward here. We started it off in, in nineteen seventy, early seventies with an all radio system, and we were the only Fire Brigade in the country that started it off, called the multi-tone radio system of communications. Er much to everybody's fear, really, because we, we, we were stepping into a new area, you can imagine from, from wires to something with no wires, and the risk of that failing, but, but it worked and er from thereon, of course most Fire Brigades have taken on the task and, and er are now on radio contact of this kind. So Suffolk was the prime area? Oh, no doubt about it, in nineteen seventy two, seventy one seventy two we, we went out on a limb really with that, erm when all other Fire Brigades were using telephone systems, the Suffolk and Ipswich Fire Service went out and did that. So that I think has been the biggest, communication-wise, has been the biggest step forward in a more erm friendly and er happier sort of note we, we were one of the few brigades that started a band. Erm there was the London Fire Brigade which had a band, erm and the Yorkshire Fire Brigade which had a band, but there was no brass band as such in this part of the world. When did it start? It started nineteen seventy one or seventy two, it must have been, when my predecessor and I were sat down, and we said what about a band, they all said, what band, well let's have a band, and and it started just like that, and we, we managed to get the whole of the brigade alerted to it, and we had a meeting at headquarters, to which about forty or fifty people turned up, of which two had probably blown a an instrument in the past, and there was enough enthusiasm to learn and we had a, a chap who was a musical teacher in town who was would happily teach our people you see and so we went out, we had a penny, with no help from the authority or anybody else and we got every type of brass instrument for a band on tick and we said we'd pay for it, and er As the Fire Brigade or individually? Er well, not as a Fire Brigade as, as, as individuals I suppose, we, we took the risk of, of paying for these instruments and On the strength of a Fire Brigade band? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and they did, they sent us a whole vanload of, of instruments and I can remember the, the evening we, we put all these instruments in the conference room there and the gang of enthusiasts arrived and, and they said and what would you like to play? Some said they'd, they'd be interested in playing, they knew how to play certain things and others wanted to play others and that's how we started, and in a matter of a year the new headquarters at er Lowestoft was being opened, by the Dutchess of Kent, and we decided that the band was going to play at that one and you can imagine, and it was all ready and they were playing music, but I'm not sure what, what quality music it was, and blow me on the week before, the band leader, the conductor decided he couldn't play because he had a sprained wrist so we were left without a conductor even, but we managed to get another conductor and we played and I don't know what it sounded like, but the Dutchess of Kent was very kind, she said the music sounded lovely. God bless her. And things have gone on since then and the band still plays, er they have not the easiest task of finding people, because of change and so on, but er their families and friends and, and even some of the youngsters that learn at school that, a fireman's friends and relatives have joined the band and they play out in the parks and they, and they play in the spar pavilion and they, they provide concerts for people, and Christmas times they play in the town. That's lovely. And I think it's great, and it's uniformed and it's played at the opening of, of the Fire Service technical college at Morton March, it was invited to play there with the other bands and erm before the Queen, and er so it's, it's gone on, from strength to strength and we are very proud of it, we really are. When you said uniforms, it that fire uniforms? Fire uniform band, yep And children in there? How do they get Then we get it specially made. locally? Yeah, we're talking about children who you know thirteen, fourteen, fifteen, which are growing up a bit, but we get them altered and we get them made for them, we used to get them made and er still do I think. Do you get them made locally? Yep, yeah all the mothers are very good as well, they, they, they alter them and get the uniform altered and fit so they look very smart they really do with er with the standard uniform with a little bit of embellishment on the shoulders and so on but erm otherwise it's the standard uniform. When you say standard uniform, that is a variant from another type of uniform? It's the, it's the what we would call the walking-out uniform, you know the, the undressed uniform, not the fire fighting uniform, which is really just a jacket and trousers and shirt and tie and, and the girls have a skirt and er er a tie and blouse and that sort of thing, so and a cap of course. Girls. Yes, we've got girls in the band as well, you know relatives of the families and, and girls that are work will do work in the Fire Brigade, in the control room and so on . Have there ever been any fire ladies, you've got firemen? Erm, they haven't had them in Suffolk, we've had one or two try to join and one did reasonably well, but right at the end of, of the, of one of the tests, the strength tests, she failed, she couldn't quite manage it erm What would she have to do? Er, well you have to carry a twelve stone man over a hundred yards, you see, in a certain time, and that is one of the strength tests, erm er these are these are tests that are drawn up to get people in in the initial stages, and then they go on from there. Erm and she was from the Pentiford area I think, erm oh quite a well educated girl, erm there was nothing to stop them from joining, I mean the London Fire Brigade there are, are fire fighters who are girls, erm and the er they do very well erm there are problems of course, with, with women on fire stations, but nevertheless there's no reason why they shouldn't be there, providing they can do the job and I'm sure those who read the papers and see the news know that in Russia and places like that, women do the, do the job very well. Erm But you do need that physical strength? There's definitely that needed and, and by and large they seem to fall by slightly on that and in things like breathing apparatus, the wearing of that, and Why is that? Erm I, I think again it's, it's probably the, the feeling of wearing it in, in confined spaces that might upset women more than it does erm men I don't know. Is it claustrophobic in, in the breathing apparatus? It can be I know where it has affected men even to that extent to be claustrophobic yep. Er some won't wear it at all erm erm have had to leave the Fire Service because of that. Oh yes. Er it's not everybody's cup of tea that isn't, nor is indeed like climbing ladders isn't. Climbing ladders isn't everybody's cup of tea you say? No it isn't erm and erm even those who in, in my experience who did get through there was just an occasional er time when they didn't pass that part of it, they, they, they, they couldn't quite manage that, the height side frightened them and er they failed, erm so there's quite a lot of demands on them and I'm sure that a lot of women could do it and a lot of women if they had the chance would do it or would, if they were willing to do it, but it's not something that grabs most women, I don't think it does, I think it's the physical side that puts them off, and that is what is the problem with the Fire Service, it is a physical job. Erm in the early stages, I mean you've got to go through all the ranks, you've got to go through that physical side, even if you want to get on, there's no direct promotion into the higher ranks so you've got to go through it, every Chief Officer, every senior officer that you, you come across in the fire service, has started as a fireman and will start as a fireman on like er the forces where you get direct entry into the forces, you don't get them in the Fire Service. Mind you it's a good idea if you have all the practical experience, nobody can every say well you don't know, you haven't done it. That's right, I think that's, that's the secret of it yeah. Yeah. But going through all the stages, all the ranks, experiencing all the things that every other fireman under your command will experience, and you've done it. That's right. They do have lady clerical staff don't they? Mm yes most of the, most of the jobs erm anything to do with typewriting, and clerical work there's a predominance of me females, yeah. There are one or two clerks, er that have male, purely because it's, it's their job anyway, and er the chief clerk headquarters is a male but the majority of them now are women yep, and they do well er, headquarters staff do it very well I think, that side of it. I think even Control Room where at one stage it was a, a male domain, it is not so now there's, there's, I would think now there's a predominance of women there, erm purely I think again that Control Room work suits them better, they, they, they concentrate better, I think, they, they lend themselves better to that type of work and they're more dextrous with their fingers on, on these buttons and, and typewriters and, and other things What does the Control Room involve? Well, the main Control Room is, it's the centre of all the communications set up on the operational side for the Fire Brigade. They take, they are the people that are in contact with every nine nine nine call that comes in. Do they go direct now? They go direct wherever you are in Suffolk it goes into Ipswich, all the calls go into Ipswich. Road? Yep, and erm the minute the nine nine nine calls come in, the staff at the Control Room there deal with them er erm they record the call, they, they talk to the people, they take the message, they erm call out the fire appliance, they inform the firemen where to go, they er show them where to go if, if they can't find their way, they direct them and then they process the whole problem until the job is ended. So that's the function of the Control Room. How did they alert the firemen on at the station? You know, nine nine nine call comes in. Yep. They verify that is coming from where the person says it's coming. They then alert the firemen. How do they alert the firemen? Well on the, on the whole-time manned stations, that's done by pressing a button and, and an alarm is sounded, it's er a horn, type of horn that sounds off, er that's easy enough. On the twenty seven part-time stations where the people are not on the station, they're at home, they're at work or elsewhere, each one carries a little alerter with them, erm tiny little gadget in his pocket, and by means of this erm radio communication I was talking about earlier, by pressing the right button for the appropriate station, er er it triggers off these alerters and the men respond to that call, come to the fire station, where the telephone is live waiting for them and the message is passed on that way. In fact the latest development is that they don't even do that by picking up a telephone, the message is teleprinted on, onto a message pad there, and when they run in they pull off this pad, and there's the whole text for what they've got to do, where they've got to go, and so on. So it's all done now automatically. The girl in headquarters types it out, and it's transmitted there, and received and that's all they do. So there's no, even talking if necessary, once they get onto the fire engine, they pick up the receiver then and book-on mobile which tells the Control where they are going, and once at the situation then the conversation is done by, by radio telephone. So in the olden days before they had the, the alarm, the pager alarm Mm. carried on the pocket or whatever, how did you alert these part-time firemen or the, the erm they are part-time firemen aren't they? Yep, well each station in those days had one of the war-time sirens on, on, situated right on the top of the tower of these fire stations, enormous great sirens with a very piercing, loud sound, erm so that was the audible warning, to tell them that they were wanted in the fire station. Er it, it worked very well for ninety percent of the time, but there was occasions when wind direction was wrong, and the noise levels were high and so on. Er or aircraft went over when the siren was going, and the people couldn't hear it. ninety five percent of the time it worked. At home, when they were at home they had bells in their home, and erm by pressing the appropriate button, er an electrical charge was sent across these wires, it was private wires to these homes and the bell rang, and as soon as the bell rang all hell broke loose in these, these homes. I mean I've known wives er having bicycles ready in the, in the corridors of the house, where all the man had to do was to get his trousers on, if he was asleep in bed, she would come and open the front door, put him on his bike and away he went. That was it. Of course it has become more sophisticated now, there's cars waiting and, but firemen are very very like that, we train firemen, they have their gear ready, erm I'm told by, by most of the firemen that they have a chair there with their trousers on them and his shirt and his shoes and, and his car is ready in, in the drive way or his bike is ready in the driveway and, and he's away and he's, he's on a fire station in a matter of a few, few minutes. That's good isn't it? Oh yes, the, the service that the retain people give is unbelievable for what they get paid for, it's, it's pennies really for that service. Because they only have minutes don't they to get ? Well there's a great pride in getting there, you see and they don't want to, it's, it's the first six who get there who get the ride anyway, and there is a difference in the amount of money they earn, slightly, by getting the ride, in other words going to the fire there there is a slight difference in, in the payment they receive. Not that it's much anyway, but it's, it's, there is a difference, and there is this pride of getting there, being one of the first six to get there, and there is quite a lot of competition, I can assure you. And er they have a go, er even day and night, and I don't know anywhere in the country that you can get that sort of service twenty four hours a day, three hundred and sixty five days a year from people who get paid that sort of money, it's, I think it's, it's a marvellous er set-up it really is. Would it be out of order to ask what they do get paid, or what they did get paid? Oh I'm, I'm not sure, it's, it's a few hundred pounds a year and I, I, I'm really guessing it's a few hundred pounds a year for what they call a retaining fee, for being firemen, and then it's a few pounds every time they attend, and a lesser amount every time for an, a greater amount every time they go out on the fire engine, but it's nothing er nothing exceptionally high, it's, it's very reasonable when you think they've got other jobs to do That's right. er and other commitments that twelve men in a in a village such as erm Pentiford or Pentiford will give twenty four hours cover for fires, all through the year and there are very rarely incidents where you cannot turn out a crew. Very, very rare indeed. Now that's marvellous I think. Yes, so you have twelve retained firemen, and six, at least, have to go, there are six who go on a tender? Six is the maximum you can push onto, or fit on a, a fire appliance safely. Do you have a rota system where if maybe six have got onto an appliance and there's another fire comes up in a few hours that they cannot turn ut again, or is it just a matter of whoever gets there first again? I think some stations might do that, but they only do it if, if it's, if it's not going to be detrimental to the turn out, in other words they, they have a system, erm for instance they have a duty crew over the weekend, so that at least some can take their families to the seaside if they wanted to, so six will remain around the house er er but they do have some system, but I think the majority of fire stations, there are twenty seven in Suffolk like that, who work on the system of getting there as quickly as they can, and that is the best competition to get there, to get the ride. And, they want to go anyway, that that's another point. Cos they're very conscientious aren't they? Oh yes, very keen, very keen. Did you have any large fires in your time at Road? Mm, yes we had a a reasonable number, erm nothing that dramatic, but you know enough flame and fire erm to deal with. There was one certainly in the docks in my time where, er quite a nasty fire in the docks, one of the warehouse buildings there was, was going very well erm a ten, ten or so pump was on, on that job. Erm plenty of water everywhere and er firemen everywhere. Can you pump out of the dock in a situation like that? Yes you can. Yes, the fire pumps can, can raise water up to thirty feet from the ground, erm and they, they can pick up water of course from fire hydrants, which is situated all, all, in most streets anyway. So there's no shortage of water in that area, er and even in some dock areas and dock for instance they've got special fire mains which are pressurised, which give a lot of water at a high pressure, so you can pump from there. So there's no water shortage as such, sometimes you get the water problems when you get out in the sticks somewhere you'll, you, you do have problems, but all fire officers are trained to search their areas and have special cards er which they've done their research on, where the water supplies are, like ponds and lakes and so on, and that information is readily available when they turn out these areas so that a fire crew going out there, your nearest water supply is a pond at and certain area and they've got that you see. They've got that. So all that's been researched and, and so on, and so there's no time wasting as far as I . Occasionally you'd get er hiccups you know where you can't get down there because the ground is boggy and it takes a little longer, and that sort of thing but the availability of water is, is, is pre-planned and given to you. And plus they take some of their own along anyway, don't they? They always carry four hundred gallons of water as well yes. Do they still carry the same today or has, has that amount gone up? No it's four hundred gallons, it's, it's, it's, they don't like to take any more than that because of the, the weight of water, it's quite heavy er although they have one special equipment here again one of these roll-on roll-off ones, which is a water tank equipment, and er it carries about a thousand gallons or two thousand gallons of water, er in a tank, water tank and that if you are very short of water will be sent on as well to boost up water supplies in a particular area, so erm that was another one of these pods that we, we designed and, and put on the run. And you say that other counties copied these ideas from you? Oh yes it, it spread, really has spread now quite a lot. They're very pleased at that because I mean they obviously found it to be useful, erm we proved it to be useful and it's nice to see them all taking on this responsibility now, now and doing it, because that's all progress. It sounds like the Fire Service has come a long way from the early years. Oh yes oh yes in my thirty odd years erm looking back now it must have been primitive in those days really . The uniforms were, the equipment was and yet it worked, it really worked, how efficient I suppose when you judge it from modern standards, I don't know. When you said the uniforms were, in what way? Well I mean I, I, when I joined in forty nine the, the fire uniform wasn't all that much different except they had black helmets instead of yellow, and, and they had rubber boots and they didn't have the leggings we have, and so on now, but the walking-out uniform was the old army battledress died blue, that's all it was. So we were all issued with army battledress. I mean, nowadays you've got nice jackets and, and, and so on, and the hats were, were stiff sort of hats with, caps rather with wire brims on them, you know and, and they, they were really flat on the top and there was no style with them or anything, it was, it was the styles of the, of the forties I suppose and, and nowadays it's so much smarter and nicer and more comfortable as well . The battledress was very good, I mean the army seemed to wore it all that time so er we had it for several years and we had to press that every day, thick material, very heavy. Press it every day? Well, to keep it tidy, you see the, the creases used to come out so quickly, and we had to be, well on parade you were, you were looked at and you had to be very tidy and proper and er if you didn't do it you were told to do it and that was that. Are they so strict on appearance today? I think there's a pride that, that the majority of firemen are, are fairly clean and smart erm there are the odd ones that have to be told but it's not the same sort of discipline now as there was, and I'm not sure whether it's right or wrong, all I see I, I enjoy the discipline when I had it, I sometimes wish it was brought back but er it's not the time now it seems for that type of discipline, so I think they manage well but er I would like to see a little more but perhaps I'm a bit old fashioned. All in all you seen like you enjoyed your time in the Fire Service? Oh yes, oh yes, if I had it again I'd do it exactly again. Would you? No trouble at all, yeah, I really enjoyed thirty one good years mm. Yes, that's it. That's about it And I feel very ill prepared tonight. Oh well, don't worry, leaves it to Erm yes. But it's There is no doubt about it this piece of scripture is written for the believers in the church. It's got nothing to do with people outside the church. believers and how they er it's it's really to counteract the false teaching and how they should leave their lives together. So u what Everything we're reading in here is to do with believers, not not nothing to do with the people who are not of the faith. Not I feel quite certain about that. Pardon? Switched on now? Yes it's switched on So erm as I say I feel very ill prepared. Erm let's if we've Have you switched on? Yes it's on, yes it's on. So Chapter verse twelve. Well it's a but but w er the verse nine,Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates his brother is still in the dark . Right? Whoever loves his brother lives in the light, and there is nothing in him to make him stumble. That's wonderful isn't it? If you're living in the light you won't stumble. If you're wor In other words if you're working with Christ, keep your eyes on him, you'll not go wrong. Mm. But whoever hates his brother, and this is talking about another Christian, you know? But whoever hates his brother, that's another fellow believer, is in darkness. Now that's a hard word isn't it? That's verse eleven. Mhm. And walks around in the darkness, he does not know where he is going because the darkness has blinded him. May I ask a question? Yes. Most of us don't hate anybody but we do dislike some. Well that's just about as bad isn't it? Is that the same? I would have thought so. Hate's a very Is it? strong word Hate's a strong word but I think it's I think it's er not liking somebody, isn't it? Did you start the reading of verse twelve? No No. I was just building up to it cos it's Oh , and no wonder That's why I'm getting in a muddle. I couldn't recognize it. Well you've got to build up to where you are. Yeah. Mm. Er so we'll move on to verse twelve thirteen ad fourteen. I to you dear children, because your sins have been forgiven on account of his name. Who are the children? The Christians. Are they little boys and girls? Oh Jackie. W w yeah. We'll go onto that, then I you fathers. Because you know him who is from the beginning, I to young you young men, because you have overcome the evil one. I to you dear children because you have known the father. Yes. I to you fathers, because you have known him is who is from the beginning. I to you young men because you are strong and the word of God lives in you and you have overcome the evil one. Now there's y You can go to town on that one. Yes. But I think Meir has the right er interpretation of it. alright but he goes Ooh he goes on and on and on. Erm Meir says There are graduations in Christian experience, the child, the father, the young man. The knot of the father is the glad sense of forgiveness. Of the father a deep knowledge of God. I I like this. And the young man, victory over the power the of evil. But all these is growth. The child through forgiveness, also comes to know the father. The father can only go on to know God more profoundly and as the young man men become stronger, they are more aware of the indwelling spirit of power to overcome the tempter. So it's spiritually interpreted isn't it? Yes. I think so. Yes. I think so. Mm. Er but I think the important thing in in verse twelve is on account of his name. the name of Jesus, isn't it? For h the name sake Your sins are forgiven . That's right. His na You For his name's sake. Yeah. The salvation in no other name. Mm. And his t his policies There's only one me er mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus. Does it mean for his name sake, that you must confess his name? Yes, I think so Jack. Is that what it means? I think so. I think so because if you'll not confess his name, we're not one of his are we? Mm. Surely, do we know if we receive him and believe in his name and he gave us the power to become Yeah. Be that as it may. It's very well glibly saying we're all children of God. Very often preachers say that. But my Bible tells me he gave me the power to receive him and to become. Mm. It's a you see? Mm. Yeah. But do some folk glibly say we're e every human being is a child of God. No. Well got Some people would say Some people would The scripture says you don't accept it . That's what my Bible says anyway. Yeah. This is very important that we Mm. should er and we do already confess the name don't we? Yeah. But but I mean Well We're not Christians if we don't. No but we do, we do in this room, E e Yes. Yes And our intention Y at the church is to get others to confess the name That's right. too. Isn't it? Yes. Yes. all But somebody have a choice Pardon? We all have the choice to be children of God. We've got the we've go the choice to either to become or or not to become. Mm. Ah Could you look up Acts four twelve, Sarah. I've got that down and I don't know what it says. What does Acts four twelve say, Salvation in found in no one else for is there there is no other name under heaven given to me by which we must be seen . That's right , marvellous isn't it? So there you are. So we I to your children because your sins have been giv forgiven on account of you believing upon his name . That's really what's it's saying isn't it? Mm. Now my little commentary says What? Oh Aye. I like you because by extended repetition in these verses extended repetition in these verses This my commentary,John assures his readers that in spite of the ra the regulatio test contained in the letter . Tests, because it is a rigorous test, I think I think it's tremendous, don't you? Mm. In the l er in the letter He is confident of the sil salvation. Dear children, fathers, young men, as elsewhere in this letter, dear children probably refers to all John's readers, including fathers and young men. The term fathers and young men may however describe two different levels of spiritual maturity. Mm. Some hold that all three terms refer to levels of spiritual maturity. There you are. Mm. Erm Rita, what do you think? anything different from what anybody I went to you first because you have known him who is from the beginning. From the beginning of what? John one one. Mm. Mm. Says the says the accepted Christ is the saviour, is that what it means? Verse thirteen? He seems to progress doesn't he? From children. Yeah. And then on to men. Yeah and then on to And then on to father. Yeah. So That's a different, Yeah that's right different That's it. Er are strong. Pardon? Oh , it's alright I'm just You've have known him from the beginning Beginning. means from the beginning. Yeah. Namely from the beginning of the world. Yes. From the beginning of time Yes. Yes. He'd been there from the beginning, that's we know about him. We fathers . Yes. We know that he is eternal. Mm. Not just that we found him so many years ago. Or he found us but but it is from the beginning, surely. I don't know John, I don't know. No. I don't know. er John's chapter one which is about that . Yes it is about that. See one one, yeah. John one one. from the beginning that's what it's all about. And this epistle is all about from the beginning the eternal . Yeah well she'd got to She likes to sit beside Would you like to move over there to the er er John and er can bring that one over here. What does one one John one one say then? In the beginning beginning was a word and the word was with God and the word was God. He was with God at the Aye. beginning. Yeah. Yeah, it surely is yes. Come in Pat. Come on Pat. Come in. Right. Come in Come in Pat. Come in Pat. this is being recorded the Ah. Eh Delete please. Right. Now where are we now? Coming in. Fifteen. Fifteen. Do not love the world or anything in the world, if anyone loves the world, the love of the father is not in him. For everything in the world, the craving of the sinful man, the rest of the eyes and the of what he does comes not from the father but from the world. The world and it's desires pass away, but the man who does the will of God lives forever. I erm I I don't know how you feel about that but when I read that, you know, this is perhaps a wrong s feeling of to express but yo The lord the God created the world but he's not meaning it in that respect is he? It just means that putting it first The things of the world. The things of the world . the material Yes. But God still created the world to provide the materials things. Not talking about material things, we're talking about the sort of fall of nature, I know. That's right, this is what I'm saying. So it's misleading er er er Well it can be but it c er er er er er I found it very helpful when I discovered that after I was saved. This spoke to me. Mm. It has come to my mind that it is contrasting er spiritual Yeah. spiritual life Yeah. Yeah. From a natural naturally . Through through the Yeah. the world. The material Yeah. world Yeah. It just seems that there's people perhaps no another way to put it. Hmm. Mm. Yes. But when you think of er It's not really referring to the beauty of the world. Ooh no no it's the it's the Oh no exactly i it's the far world it's referring to . Yeah. It's the what? The far world not the The unspiritual world that that we can You see the pride in the eye, that with that that that that can be can be another women or it can it can be cosmetics, it can be a dress to women or it could be another man. It could be anything couldn't it? Some the world ambiguous, I've always found it so anyway. Is it is it the world that's created and all the beauty of the world? No no no Exactly, I don't think it can incorporate that though. Have you seen about the bit Yeah, you read it out Sarah. My my Bible says Do not love the world or anything that belongs to the world, Yes, yes yes. then that one really. Not the world of people or the created world. But the world or realm of sin which is controlled by Satan and organized against God and righteousness . Oh that's entirely Right. That's the answer isn't it? Yes that is the answer. Mm. That's just the clear right reading dear. Well we've all loved the world, so it's g no good kidding No. ourselves is there? No. Because we love living in the world. Yeah but we've all loved And we love the world . The so called joys and Yeah. M m my translation I think m makes it quite definite. Everything the world affords, all that panders to the appetite, or That's right. entices the eyes. Yeah. All the glamour of its life springs not from the father but from the Godless world. That's right. Mm. And that world is parting away with that he who does God's will stands forever. That's right. Mm. But of course every everything which is not in Christ will won't it? Yeah. Yeah. I i It's only only Christ is the is the only thing that's e Is there any ending eternal thing isn't it? Eternal. Yes. Because we've all course I have layers of Yes exactly. Course there's nobody who loved the world more than what I did. the sinful man? Goodness gracious me. No but I think as your faith deepens and grows you're more aware of those. Yes . aware of it before Sarah. Because you were yo yo yo you were walking in darkness. As I said. It's wonderful when we come in to the light. I know And walk in the light. So you Yeah. these things don't you ? Yeah. Well the You're Yeah i it's it's not even a conscious not doing it. It's a it's No no a desire that's taken away from you. The things I used to do, I do them Well you put it in no more. Pardon? If you become aware of what really matters in your Yes. and this is growing isn't it ? Yeah. Yeah. That's spiritual growth. Is that spiritual growth? Yeah. Goodness gracious me. My first love was the bagpipes. And I really loved them. And don't you love them now ? And I was good Oh and I and I was a good player as well. A competition player. But I went to a pipe bag championships in Beeston and I myself completely. I says it's even ruined me for . Even I mean the Bible says, once you're in Christ you're ruined for the world. It says in somewhere in the King James' version, you're ruined for the world. And although I'm not I enjoyed the piping, I enjoyed But I was not at peace I says I says, you've even ruined me for this . Pardon? other than the bagpipes Bagpipes. But I er but I said to myself, God I'm even ruined with this. Yeah. No it's which is foremost. You put too much attention on that and not enough on That was very Yes yes that's what you make an Yes, it was my religion Yeah. at one stage . Yeah. That's right. Goodness gracious me. I'm sure the Lord's thrilled you play the bagpipes. Th th th th that's not what I'm saying. it's written in with this No I know what you're saying and I don't know why you should No no no with this It doesn't mean the same. No. before God. Yes yes. God come He Christ must come first . Yeah. Yes that's right. N nearly all idols nearly all idols Idols have their value. Yes. But they're idols because they take the place of God. That's right. That's right. And every every interest Yeah. can be can be e e e e every is interested in an idol. And we we we we and we're n not as long as it's put in the under God it's alright. You see describes it as what The lack of grace, there's no grace you know in the in in in the There's a person who's effected by these. They haven't come under grace. Hmm mm. When I was converted I lost er a great deal of interest, not completely, but a great deal of interest in in in fiction. In fiction? Yeah. Why? Oh yes he would. He he Yes he would and great deal as well Yeah Yeah. Yeah. I'm s I'm It's void isn't it? I'm sorry that I've lost it, like I think it perhaps Si has lost the pipes. Yeah. But er I I understand why, because it played too big a part in my Yes. imagination can take charge of it . That's bad. That's bad for you and it's bad Yeah. for him. That's right. There is a life s empty pride. here John's uses a most vivid Greek word,Allazonia You know that? Yes yes. Allazonia. To the ancient moralists the Allazon was the man who laid claim to possessions and to achievements which did not belong to him in order to exalt himself more. We've often met people like that who blow their trumpet er pretending they were somebody else The Allazon is the braggart. And C H Dodd calls Allazonia pretentious egoism. The man of the world is doomed to disappointment. And the man of God is certain of everlasting Joy. Now you can't beat that can you? No. Mm. You can't beat that. So have we got any more comments on these verses? One of the great dangers of today I think is is adultery, and especially Absol now adultery of nature and of the world. Yes. And of intellect Jack. Eh? And of intellect? Well yes intellect too. But there's many I was only thinking of the the tendency to care for the world and look after it and worship Yeah. it, you know. Cos it's so beautiful. Yeah. mm. People that carried away true beauty and the world, it's wonderful . That's and it's Mm. I'd also after imitations have gone, and they're very good imitations sometimes . Yeah. That's where they deceive us. Yeah. That's right. You see that y er I mean your chapel could become your idol can't it ? Yes Yes. Your minister can become your idol. Yes yes. Your home can be your idol. Everything can Oh very much so. Yeah. Yeah. Your congregation can become your idol. Yeah. Everything Yes it can. Yeah. trap. Now what's the next portion, verse er verse eighteen? Mhm. Dear ch little children. Dear children, this one says. This is the last hour. And as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many Antichrists have come, this is how we know, it is the last hour. They went out from us but they did not really belong to us, for if they had belonged to us they would have remained with us but their going showed that none of them belong to us. Now he's referring there to those er people of false believers, wasn't he? Who left departed from the fellowship, I think, isn't he? Yes. And er but the last hour See how important fellowship and the church was to this man? Yes. Mm. If you went outside it you were lost. You were Antichrist. Mm. Er a aye but er but but but they but those who'll but is but if if if we we can get lost in our way if we break fellowship, can't we ? Yes. Not necessarily but we can. Cos it doesn't Cos you need fellowship don't you? Yes. You need it, to feed yourself. Even Yes. though Even though that it it might aggravate you, t does something for you doesn't it? Yeah. Yes I fully agree. But But er it was the Galatians that left wasn't it? I think. Surely it just means everybody against Christ? The well these are a people who No. were in the fellowship but they were They they get funny with they were false things or they some won't go that far. People are leaving all the time from the churches. And new Especially ones coming in. Oh es especially the pentecostal groups Oh we change over like this. Oh a terrible E I only questioned about something on Sunday coming home, and she said well, lady that were bringing me, she said well they won't have it. They won't have the hard teaching . No they've got. No Yeah. they won't have the hard teaching. No no. So they don't last very long. Well some do but She said the idea I mean she said about I was asked a question about an American we've got that is with us but he doesn't preach very often, and I said well where is he? I said er I I imagine cos I've been visiting his wife you see. They said well er I thought perhaps he was away preaching, she says oh no they don't want any of m our people used to go out a lot preaching, but they don't want any of them now because it's too deep for them to Yes I can understand that. And he's very straight, our pastor you know, he he tells 'em straight you know . Ooh aye oh aye, yeah. Don't mess about and er well I said I never find anything offensive but I think that's why it's best always to keep it so simple. Don't you ? Well it is a simple gospel . No it It is but Well it's not that I mean there's a there's a you but Ah but you name what it around the m around the Mansfield =field, and these Children, at School they know far more than I do at my age I think. And things that's going on, it's got to the children. Evil things it is. Oh yes . Yes. And and And saying you get people in you see. Perhaps come for the first time. Yeah. Well there's We don't know what their lives like any k way. E they come unto the word and e Well if the want to follow the lord it's different isn't it? But if No good hanging about is it? But he's very very straight about everything. Whatever the lord tells him to say he does it. And he disciplines her in front of the he'll discipline them Yeah but he'll he'll discipline them. in front of the congregation . And they won't and you see so But understood yesterday, they w they weren't they want to take it you see? Now. I see here's got such a lot on this but he says erm Well I've lost where I was. Antichrist can mean either the opponent of Christ Exactly. or the one who seeks to put himself in the place of Christ. Mm. Mm. Anti. Antichrist can be one who subtly tries to take the place of Christ from within the Church Mm. and the Christian community. Mm. The one who will be in open an oppos opposition, the other a subtle infiltration. he comes in many guises doesn't he? Yeah. Anyway. Er we need to choose the meanings for Antichrist. It can either way. The simplest way to choose is to think of it is that God is the incarnation Christ is the incarnation of God. Which he is. And goodness and the Antichrist is the incarnation of the enemy,det satan himself. Oh Yeah. Because the Antichrist is not merely somebody who comes along and er and ten times the the violence and persecution and all that. No. Like Hitler for example. The Antichrist is a very subtle very Oh much more subtle . Mm. Very much more subtle. guise of angels. exactly yes. Yes. the Antichrist is not so much a person as a principle. The principle which is actively opposed to God. Cos you see, those people who are working Not coming back to your fellowship is a illustration, they are really They they might be Christians, but they're walking in the l Well th they're allowing the enemy Yes. the there are choice, either submission or going their own way, the pride of the world Yes, and this is it, yeah. t to disobey what John was just saying in those previous few verses. Yeah. Er opposed to God and of which may well be thought of as incarnating itself in those men in every generation, who have sin to be the blatant opponents of God . Well a lot of people have been called the Antichrist haven't they? Napoleon, Mussolini, Hitler, the Pope and plenty others . Yes, all these all these Yeah. strong people you Yes. see. But er Antichrist is often a very much er And more harmless looking person. Oh yes he is Jack. Yes he is Mm. It can Yes. be the type that's very practical towards life, He can be i er that has no er psychology or similar to work miracles he will you know. Yes. But it can be a very direct, practical But communism communism was a form of Antichrist. Ooh Absolutely absolutely. N And Nero and Nero, according to Bartley was very much a a human monster. Yeah. Yeah. But to get Antichrist that we've got to d wh where a Is the one who might even proclaim the gospel to us but you know perfectly well there's something wrong with That's right. Yes. Look at , wonderful preacher. Did you No you never met did you? No. Gosh. What does it mean when it says it is the last time. Oh well Well it's the end of time, I says since the crucifi Looking for the Lord's coming aren't they? Since the crucifixion within the last time haven't they? Mm. Yes. Yes. I think And we should be prepared for the er For the lord's c Lord's coming last time . Yeah, yeah, yeah , yeah. I would have thought so. Mm. I would have thought so. See there's two words for time, one is Chronos and Yes. the other is Chiros Chronos is time, chronological time, so that when you say the the coming of Christ the time of Christ is near. It means that it'll come sort of next week, or the week after or next year. That's Chronos. Yes. But Chiros has a different and meaning of time all together. Time is is opportunity, it's occasion. It's er it's it's filled time. Yes. It's filled Yeah. chronological time. There's all the difference between live and being I Mean being time and being in God. Being in time and being in in the eternity. There's a quality of time and then there's just time. You just spend time, you waste time, you give Yeah I see. time away. But if you're wise you fill up time with what Mm. last. Yeah. Does anybody not understand what I'm trying to Oh yes, yes. yes fully I think. It's another way, work out your salvation with fear and trembling. Yes yes. Fits into that doesn't it? Because this is the l this is very important time. It's Yeah. a very important Yeah. time. It can make you feel very guilty Jack. If you are to worry too much about that because I often wished deliberately, where I could be doing something more productive for the lord. But don't you think you need to sit and be quite Well here again that's one of the arguments. Yeah. That's one of the arguments before Yeah. I think You need to what please? Well you need to sit and be quite with the Lord as to keep doing for the Lord. Yes you do, yes yes. In fact it's wisdom comes into that Yes. Yes. doesn't it? had er a who used time of course. Of course. He he was he's very keen on the use of time. He never wasted any did he? No, it's very important, important is time. The life above when this is past is a ripe fruit of Earth below. My favourite hymn. The life above, when this is past, is the ripe fruit of Earth below. Aha. The fruit of Earth below. Yes. Er The fruit of your works. Yes Yes yes. Mm. yes. Was it used to say keep keep saying buy up the time buy up the time? Yeah. Mhm. used to keep saying that . the time. Buy the time out of the evil days. Yeah. Yeah. Very challenging. Very morally challenging. It is. Mhm. Right. Anything more on this? Then we've got the verses Well b er verses nin Verses er Twenty twenty one. Twenty, you have an unction Ah, but you have of the holy one and all that you know, the truth and All of you know the truth. I do not write to you because you do not know the truth but because you do know that it and because no lie comes from that truth. So there you are, there's an interesting one, then unction as a holy ghost. What does it mean when it says you know all things. Well the spirit reveals it to you, that's what it's really saying isn't it? What does it mean? Pardon? I don't know all things. Well I suppose i it means that you know the difference between right and wrong cos we've only been We've been talking about it further up haven't we? Yes. Not being connected with the world, and being more spiritual. I suppose he means that. But you know all things, I mean Spiritual things. well no not spiritual kind of life and Mm. What are the full powers he claims to have? What does he claim to Infallibility? Oh well that's what he claims . No no don't laugh at that, don't laugh at that. There is something infallible, that's what they that's what they're saying here, that's what he's saying. Well yes yes there's there's something infallible in i i i In the unction. Why in the unction, Yeah. a a a i i it's infallible Alan. Yes yes yes yes But that's not the difference of a f That's a different thing to what the p papal er interpretation is of Yes I'm not defending the pope at all. No. No no. That's an entirely different thing. But I am defending the fact that there is an Ooh definitely. in the Church. Yes. there's a an Yeah. Yes there is. We know in whom we have belief. That's right. We do know. Yes. And that's the truth. That is the That is the last word. Yeah. So we we have got that er that very important o knowing all things. I think it's wonderful. There's such a lot of er erm extraordinary sayings in this er epistle. Acts ten thirty What does Acts ten thirty eight say? Say what? Acts ten, verse thirty eight. There are reference to that for for for verse twenty. A God for Jesus of Nazareth, with the Holy Spirit and how he went around doing deed and healing all around him power of the devil, because God was with him. That's when g wh that's that's when God and Antichrist. Yeah well well yeah. God went out to Jesus. Er well he anoints us you see? Doing exactly the same thing. Second Well I mean really the healing was their faith wasn't it? Of the The healing was done through the spirit. Yes but One change was Two Peter one twelve. Two Peter one twelve. One twelve. So I will always remind you of those things even though you know them as a firmly established in the truth. You ha Prophecy of scriptures. That's Peter. And therefore my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling an election sure. This is what you were saying about buying up the time, John in a way, isn't it? Yeah. For if you do these things you will never fall. In other words you will not slip up and fall from sin I suppose. And you will receive a rich welcome which 's hymn says doesn't it? Hmm. into the eternal kingdom of our lord, the saviour, Jesus Christ. So so there I will always remind you Peter says, I will always remind you of this things that if you buy up the time Yes. even though you know Even although you know it. And they will e they will establish or continue to build it up. Yes yes. That's what it's really saying isn't it? Yes, keep on keep on Yeah. keeping on. I think it is right to refresh This is the job of the preacher really isn't it? Or the teacher. I think it is right to refresh your memory as long as I live, in the tent of his body. Because I know that I will soon put it aside, as our Lord Jesus has made clear to me. So he must have been in Yeah,Aye. And I will make every effort to see that after my departure you will always be able to remember these things. So in other words I'll I'll raise up somebody to fill my shoes I suppose. Yeah yeah. Marvellous isn't it? Yeah. I think it's thrilling, I Any more comments? What verse are we up to now? Have we done twenty one yet? Yes we have Yes. Twenty two Mm. Mm. really Yeah we've done that. refer to it. Yeah. Then we want the verse twenty two. No lie comes from the truth. Twenty one. Who who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the is the Christ. Such a man is the Antichrist. He denies the father and the son. Now who blatantly denies that Jesus is the Christ today? I'm asking. All sorts of funny religions I should think. Quite a few. Jehovah's Witnesses. I don't know whether they do or they don't. Could we Before we get today, could we say that these are the gnostics aren't Yes yeah yes the gnostics them. But are the gnostics of their time. Yeah. Because there was just as much unbelief then as there is now, Jack . Yeah. That's the way . Yes. Yes. That if If the enemy wasn't Yes. active wasn't it? Well a Jehovah's Witness came to my door and said er Jesus Christ was not the son of God. No. I think they said Jesus Christ is not Is not God . God. That's what they said. Oh they believe that Jesus Christ is the son of God, alright. No. Not the Oh yes. way he put it. this is the j He he said he was a prophet. They don't they don't accept him They came here for years, Yeah. but I've forgotten what the teaching was. What was the teaching? on what he was saying. But that's how he put it Ye er there's but not equal with God. That's right. That's right. Son of God but but Er that's right. But the Mohammedians say it's impossible for Jesus to be the son of God because didn't have a wife, and it's as simple That's ex that's exactly how the Islamics view it. How on Earth can he be the son of God, because God didn't have a wife. And it takes a man and a women to produce a child. That's how the the Mohammedians see that. S with the Jehovah's Witness, I don't whether they come under this category or not. No I don't I I read their Bible once and it said at the beginning, in the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was a god. Yes. They believe in the divinitive God but not in the divinitive Jesus Christ. Yes yes, yes. word not God but the word was a god, it's just that difference between a little G and a capital Yeah. That's right. is is the divine Christ. And in there's a there's there there's a similar confession in in Chapter five five. What does chapter five five say? Who is he that overcometh the world. But he the believeth that Jesus is the son of God. He that overcometh the world. But he believeth that Jesus is is the son of God . Well I would doubt if the Jehovah's Witness overcometh the world. Having nearly become one. Not in the sense that you and I know it anyway. Overcoming the world . Pardon? They're they're a religion that in erm in er organization. They worship their organization. Yeah but they're in no as well. They'll the the it's it's a law job isn't it? They try to keep the law. Their law. Yeah. Well they would say it's i i but but there are old testament type of belief, I think. Actually the er Jehovah Witnesses were some of the most er s strongly opposed to Hitler Oh yes. Oh yes, they were They were But they were very much more strongly opposed to him than were many orthodox Christians . Oh yes. Aye. The Jehovah's Witness they're opposed to all sorts of tyranny, the Jehovah's Witness. Mm. Look at Dr the leading Presbyterian was persecuted to the Jeho the Jehovah's Witness you know. They maybe even murdered them, I'm not too sure. Yeah. Yeah. Cos they're against churches generally aren't they? Well the Antichrist is the church. Yes, yes. I used to go up past there believing the that the minister was the the represented the Antichrist. I did. I did. Because that's what they teach. Jehovah's Witnesses call Christendom the Whore of Babylon. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. And that's us. Yeah. And that's and that's us. Yeah. Mm. That's what they call Now us, Christendom. erm five six, this is the one who came by water. This is the part of the What what verse were we on? Because I've forgotten. We're on twenty two . Twenty two. No what verse? Twenty two. Twenty two aye. two. This is the er er Jesus the Christ such a man is who denies him. And then my study Bible suggest that we read this. Water symbolizes Jesus' b baptism, and blood symbolizes his death. These are mentioned because Jesus's ministry began at his baptism and ended at his death. Who is reaching who is rea John is reacting to the heretics of his day, the gnostics. Who said that Jesus was born only a man and remains so until his baptism. I think Jehovah's Witness don't say that. Ah. At that time they maintained that Christ the son of God descended on Jesus but left him before his suffering on the cross. So that it was only the man Jesus who died. Throughout this letter John has been insisting that Jesus Christ is God as well as man. He now asserts that it was this God-man Jesus Christ who came into our world, was baptized and died. Jesus was the son of God, not only at his baptism but also at his death. Is that thing still going? Can you see it going? Yeah, when it stops let me know cos I'll turn it over. This man this truth is extremely important, because if Jesus died only as a man, his sacrificial anointment would have been sufficient to take Would not Would not have been sufficient No. to take away the guilt of man's sin. That's right. The spirit would testifies That is the holy spirit testifies that Jesus is the son of God in two ways. The spirit Jesus is the son of God The spirit descended on Jesus at his baptism, and two he continues to confirm in the hearts of the believer the apostolic testimony that Jesus's baptism and death, verifies that he is the Christ, the son of God. I believe myself, that there is no conflict between the human and the divine. None at all. They are they are one. I don't know what you mean Jack, The human is divine and the divine is human. The spirit came upon Jesus at the baptism,upon a man, upon a man and it came upon him It raised him from the dead. Mm. On the cross as the son of God. And er I am I am a great great believer, but I feel out of that myself, as one of the things I'm feeling out of. Mm. The spirit is human and the spirit is divine. There's no con There's no necessary conflict. We always associate humanity with sin, course we do Yes. and we mustn't do that. Real humanity before the fall Oh yes. was one with God. Yes it was. Yes. Hmm. And that's what it was with Jesus Christ, it's one with God. Absolutely yes. Mm. Mm. And that's what it should be with us. One with God. Yes yes. Yes. But we won't let it a hundred percent till we're there will we? No, but we are human, which is a good thing. Yeah, cos I've heard some people stand up, pronounce that A lot of people find religion very artificial and er They do and and I do. Yes. That's right. Speak more about it then brother. Mm? Say some more about it. What? Enlarge on it. Well I I find all religion artificial. Yeah. He's talking to the word religion, aren't you? Yes. word religion. Yes. And that's Yes, well I never use that word actually myself , That's isn't it? Yes. I use the word spirit. Mm. Spirit? Spirit is human and divine? Do you believe in the divine? Well of course Yeah. I'm a Christian. Mm. Yes. I think what you're saying Jack is a is a wonderful comforting feeling. And it gives one a peaceful feeling within Yes. That the naf that the natural and the divine are linked. That's why I feeling out of it I think. And I think this is er erm a peaceful feeling within us that we need to feel. We don't always want to be testing ourselves all the time, do we? No. I don't think Christ meant us all the time to Testing ourself? Well we are. We don't. We're we're Are we We don't Well we are to a point, you're saying well they're You feel guilty at times, that you're not doing enough. But I no I know I I ca I know I I I I I I isn't it? d I don't think I even I don't think I even feel Did I say guilty? Cos I don't think I do feel guilty . Well you did feel guilty, I think you said that . But I I I I I I don't know I er I I don't think I do feel guilty. I just say to myself. I s Well That you could be doing more. But I'm quite happy not to. I think. I think so . Yes. where the guilt is. Yes. Yes. Verse twenty four now is it? Thank you. Mm. See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. Yes now that's dynamic isn't it? If it does, you will also remain in the son, and in the father and this is what he promised us even eternal life. You see the son and the father and you and all the names Yeah. Isn't that lovely? It is. Yes. That's It is That's what I'm talking about really . Yeah. Seems to me that John is trying to er establish and and pursue the fact that Jesus Christ is You you see if you think right back. In the in the very beginning of our Bibles er the the the prophets and all such people were wanting to establish the fact of God. God is spirit and then when Christ came, when he was born, people had difficulty, great difficulty in accepting him as being of God. Yes they did. They did. They did. And and this is what I think what John is trying to get over. Yes it is. I think so. Yeah. Yes he's Yes. trying to establish the fact that Jesus is God. That's right. Mm. A and that and that he he was born God and that died on the cross as God. Cos there cos there was Yes yes yes well of course. those other Whatever they called them Galatians were were saying that he was only God from his baptism to Not on the cross, before the cross . You see I Jesus all sort man. Yes because he was man and spirit wasn't he ? Yes of course God and He must have been. He was the link from both of us. But I think the the the hardest thing is to accept the fact that he is God. We we we know But that he we've but but but got the record of his birth and his growing up. His development . human form. But yes but e e but er but when the spirit quickens you as an individual, at least I had no doubt that he was good. Immediately. You see the word man is ambiguous. We're all men, if the ladies will excuse me saying that, we're all men and men are human. We're all human. But are we human really? Are we human enough? Are we really human, right through?but Jesus But Jesus was human, right through. Yeah. Yeah. He was a man, the man the capital man. We're imperfect anyway aren't we ? Yes. Mm. Imperfect. But the capital man, and God, there is nothing to distinguish between No. them. No. They're one. Yeah. I and the father, Jesus said, are one. And er I I you are going to be in thee and I going to thee in you. And then he spoke to his disciples,wonderful unity. I think it's fantastic that. Yes isn't it? Very comforting. It is. It's comforting to me. And John says I'm writ Yeah, it is to me as well. He says I'm writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you astray. Mm. Mm. Yes yes. Now you see,i isn't isn't it remarkable that the Jehovah's Witness tried to lead us astray, but the minute Christ came in they were wasting their time. Jehovah's Witness isn't it? They came for six months after seven day wonder, something had happened to us. But er they realized Now and every time I she'll ask me, and she'll say . Er Where were we? Verse twenty seven is it? Yes. Ask for you the anointing you receive from him remains in you. And you do not need anyone to teach you. Now this is Some people would take that literally. And proclaim that literally. But it doesn't mean exactly what it's saying does it? No. No. But as his anointed teache er as his anointing teachers you All things. about all things, and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit, just as it has taught you, remain in him. we've met people who would say read your Bible,holy spirit very quickly. And you don't need u go to church and listen to the preacher. No. Oh dear. So Oh dear. that is a real Aye. So we're back to the anointing there aren't we? Can I read that verse in my Bible? Yes. But the anointing, which ye had received of him, abideth in you, and ye need not have any man teach you but as the same anointed teachers you all things, and is truth and is no lie and even as it have taught you, ye shall abide in him. Yes. And that's the secret, we should read the word and let the word read us. Hmm. That's another way of putting it isn't it? Mm. Let the words read us, cos it's God reading us isn't it? Mm. Of course God does speak to us through humans beings. He does. Yes. People and they're not only preachers or teachers or so on Yeah, that's right. but er. You We learn a lot from one another actually. I was going to say That's the idea of this meeting isn't it? Gosh And also the experiences of life. That's right. Yeah. Yes, yes. Which is more so isn't it? Yes. Oh gosh, aye. We would be we would be Still be very immature if we didn't have one another, wouldn't we? Yes, indeed Yes. Michael, when he was at s When he was at school, he won a scholarship to university, when he got to the university he said as if he'd made a great discovery. He said Dad, there's a lot of people know a lot more than we do. already the intellectual. Very touching tribute to humility. Mm. Mm. Yes, very good. And the Of the natural world. Eh? Of the natural world. Yes that's true of the spiritual world to isn't it? I thought in your case it would be more the natural. Now where are we? Verses the last two verses innit? Mm. And now dear children You see we're back to the children again aren't we? Mm. continue in him so that when he appears we may be confident That's good isn't it? Confident. and unashamed before him, at his coming. Right? If you know that he is righteous you will know that everything everyone who does what is right has been born of him. That's the test that's the test isn't it? It's very hard That's the test isn't it? Mm. has some interesting comments to make about these two verses . Well he's got a a a comment verse twenty seven the anointing. You have received the anointing of God's holy spirit, he is your teacher, the spirit of truth who will guide you into all truth. He will teach you everything. Jesus promises that. And what does the holy spirit teach you? It teaches you remain in him In other words remain in his word and let it remain in you. Live in Jesus keep walking in his way, looking to him who is the author and perfector of our faith. Not looking back or down or in but up to him. And the outcome And now dear children, verse twenty eight, Yeah. You have been crucified with Christ. The old nature has been crucified, the new has come. Behold all things are new. So that it is no longer you who live but Christ Mhm. who lives himself through you. As you live in his righteousness and holiness, by his spirit and presence within you, so you That's us. may be confident and unashamed before him at his coming. When he comes back again, which he will come to judge the the quick and the dead. And the blood of Jesus This is marvellous isn't it? The blood of Jesus washes your shame away, because Yes. he has accepted and forgiven you. It is marvellous isn't it? Yes Mm. that's wonderful. Can't loose. Can't e you can't loose in this Mm. Aye. Marvellous isn't it? Yeah. So that's completed chapter Two. Two. What time did you say you were going Jack? Oh well it depends on the light. I I'll go about ten to nine, five to nine. Ten or five to nine. Another quarter of an hour. Eh? Another quarter of an hour. Yes, got another quarter of an hour. So we move on to chapter three. You needn't stop because I'm gone. Chapter three. Would somebody like to to read the first two verses of chapter three? How great is the lord the father has lavished on us that we should be called children of God? And that is what we are. the reason the world doesn't know us is that it did not know him. Dear friends now we are children of God and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears we shall be like him for we shall him as he his. Everyone will have this hope in him Yes. purifying himself just as he is pure . That's wonderful, Isn't that marvellous isn't it? Yes. And I love the word hope there don't you? Yeah. Yes. Good isn't it? See Yes yeah. but rightful You can't get away from that about the about the creation can you? It's it's brought us back to J to John one again hasn't it? The first verse in John goes In the beginning,Genesis one,was the word. The Greeks used this term not only of the spoken word but also of the unspoken word. The word still in the mind. That's interesting isn't it? The reasoning, when they applied it to the universe, they meant the rational, the principle that governs all things. Jews, on the other hand, used it as a way of referring to God. Thus John used the term that was mean meaningful to both Jews and Gentiles with God. The word was distinct from the father was God. Jesus was God in the fullest sense. I'm on John twelve, the sons of God,He gave the right, the membership in God's family, is by grace alone. Cos you remember last week we accounted for er He was in the world, and although the world was made through him the world did not recognize him. He came to that which was his own,that's in other words that was the Jews wasn't it? But the Jews did not receive him, yet to all That's Jews and Gentiles,who received him to those who believed in his name he gave the right to become the children of God. And that was, children born not of natural descent nor of human decision, or a husband. But born of God. In other words, born this been born again . Born again. Marvellous isn't it? Many shall appear who shall be like him but we shall see him as he is. Do you understand that? Verse whe What verse is that? Two isn't it? Are we a children of God and that we will be as not yet been made known but we but we know that when he appears we shall be like him. In spiritually speaking anyway. For we shall see him as yet I should imagine it's a spiritual condition isn't Yeah. it? It's extraordinary isn't it?be changed by just looking at it? Yes. Just by seeing it. Now Colin's got a er another dissertation about verses one and two here. That is the glorious promise of what you shall be. verses one and two. Mm. Yeah. You can't imagine what it will be like, but when the day of the lord comes People don't realize that that the lord's coming back, and they'll be a day of judgement. They don't do they? They never think about it? but when the day of the lord comes, you shall be like because you've been born gain in his Yeah. spirit. Mhm. That's why we'll be like him. All those things about your soul that you kn know dishonour him, shall be swept away. We got The rubbish won't it? You shall be like him because you shall see him as he is . He is. Mm. Somehow that moment will completely on about , wasn't it? Mm. will complete the work of perfection, that Mm. God has planned for you and me. God's anointing remains in you, his spirit teaches you, you're to remain in the spirit In other words living in Christ. The father has lavished his love upon you my making you his child. You will be confident and unashamed before Jesus at his coming. When he appears you shall be like him, for you shall see him as he is. Now that's the promises. Mm. Yeah. Marvellous isn't it? Mm. Gosh. Everyone who has this hope in him purifies himself just as he is pure,That's that's Colin goes on to say,because you shall be like him does not mean that you are to care little about how much of him can be seen in your life. Now,far from it because because he is pure you are to seek purity of heart and now. Purity of mind and thought. Yeah. Purity of desire and affection, purity of life and action. Living the holy of God's holy people in the power of the holy spirit. Yes. Mm. Marvellous isn't it? Hope hope purifies. Yes. Yes I Pur think that Isn't that marvellous? isn't it? I went to listen to him at the methodist church at er Newark about Oh quite a few years when Oh. I just came As Oh aye, Colin? you know I only wish I could have heard him Colin at the Methodist ? Yes , he was at the Methodist. You know that very large church at Newark? Was he in there? Yes he'd but no at at erm No Dennis you've got the wrong place. Mansfield. Ah. have very large Ma er church street. Bridge Street. and I I was taken to it by friends. Yeah. And I heard him and do you know, he was powerful, the way he Ooh er Who is this? Colin who'd erm Colin He lives at Who erm He's an Anglican Matt's reading from. And erm but it was most inspiring But I would appreciate it even more now Yeah. Mm. than ten years ago. Mm. And then verses five to six. You know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And then in him In him is no sin. No one who lives in heaven keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or knows him. Colin goes on to say, there is no sin in Jesus,You were saying Jack. for sin is whatever opposes God. Now there's an interpretation of sin. Mm. If you live in heaven you live in the sinless It would be totally inconsistent, therefore, to pers to persist in your sinful ways, opposing God in your life. Now the Galatians said it was okay to do that. Those who claim faith in Jesus but do not demonstrat This is what Our friends John. but do not demonstrate a life that is lived for him Yes. Do not truly know or love him . Faith without deeds. Yes that's Mm. right. The power of sin Matt. no longer grips, Yeah. our life. Even though you can still sin. Mm. Mm. You no longer have to. Mm. No. Grace transform the fate. Yeah. Grace transform the faith? No the fate. Fate. Yes. Yeah. Verse five is it now? Four. Is it? F Well i did five and six just now. Yes well then there's seven isn't it? Seven. Dear children do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right, is righteous just as he is is righteous. Just as Christ is righteous? Yes, yeah. He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. Verses nine. No one This is a hard one, this you know . Mm. No one who is born of God will continue to sin. Because God's seed remains in him. He can't go on sinning because his he has been born of God . Of God. This what I asked you the other week. When you say when We do. We do to be sinners. But we do sin. We're we're free We should be free. Should be but we do. I think we just No and we make mistakes Matt, but we don't willingly sin. I don't know,myself. We certainly don't need to sin. No. No. I mean, if it's pointed out to us by the lord we we try and overcome that don't we? Yes, Whatever it is. Yes. God has made you righteous. And you And you can do what is right in his sight. You are no longer a child of the Devil, in rebellion against God. You no longer need to persist in sin. Jesus has destroyed the devil's work and delivered you from the power of sin. God lives in you by the power of his spirit and he will guide you into truth, life and peace. Not sin. If you follow his leading in your life, you will not persist in your sin. Is that what you're saying, Janet? Mm. not in your head. This don't understand it. Well this but you don't s persist in sin do you? Don't really want to sin. No you don't. you don't. But sometimes we slip up Pat. Yeah, we slip Yeah. This does not mean that you will never sin Right? Mm. This is what you're saying isn't it? Mm. but if you if you desire to glorify God then you will not willingly or wilfully persist. Mm. This is it, yeah that's it. That's the way of putting it, isn't it? We know the difference and we are aware right away doesn't it? But to think that we do it Yes Yeah. When God points out your fault you will come ready to him and repent in his in because we get back to the first chapter, verse nine. I was never out of that for the first few years I was saved, I was always getting in there,confessing my sins. Nearly wore the carpet our in the bathroom. Getting down to I remember one, David said, you remember too, after he had committed that terrible Yeah. crime and it was with her husband. He said I was born sin. And I said excuse. Yeah. presumably God Yeah. accepts Yes I wanted to say that . I was born in sin and shapen in iniquity. Yeah. Yes. That's the excuse he gave. Yeah. And it wasn't rejected. I think it's part of our nature. We are born in sin. We are. We are shapen in iniquity Yeah yeah , we are. Mm. And there's a conscience as well as a There's an unconscious, As well as a conscious drive in us, which often is not very good. There's a force within us, Yes. which will lead us on to resisting Christ, Yes. Yes. Yes , that's right. A a and when you're born again, that's really we but that power without doubt has been broken . It's destroyed. But it's that It Well not not entirely not destroyed broken It's been broken. It's been broken and that Mm. and that's marvellous isn't it? Yes. Because i because people will hate you and I because they don't hate us Yes. but they hate Christ . Yes. That's right. Mm It's a It's tremendous isn't it ? It's the hauteur isn't it? Pardon? It's the hauteur. Yes. And I've had to believe in the power of the subconscious as well as my own responsibilities , Yes , yes. but there is a power of the subconscious . Yes. There's a power of the unconscious I think, I think. Power of the unconscious? Power of the unconscious . I would have thought so. Yes yes. In other words for er si the heart is deceitful. Yeah. Very deceitful. But don't you think Jack, all stress should be taken out of it? All stress Yes because should be taken out of Yes, of ourselves because we should be in a peaceful. Surely we should be in a joyous peaceful Yeah, if we could if we could be working really in the spirit at all times, yes. Yes yes yes . Yes. If we were really working in Christ all the time, yes I think Yes but I I think God's got the pattern for us Yes he has, providing we can work really in Him, all the time. But this is where we fall short Exactly We fall short, Oh we're we are Yes we are joint we are an equal with Christ, a joint with him, Mm. I know, but I feel we should stress the peace that that we're given. Yes, well we are given peace We should stress Yeah. the power. Yeah. And the power, Yeah. And the grace we're given Yes, oh yes . And the love we're given . That's right, hit again This is the this is thing we should be That's the message, that's the message. That's right . Yeah. And I mean That's what the the preacher should be this is what you want to say to other people isn't it ? That's right Yes. And that's what the preacher should be Oh they say to me have you seen the sins of the world? Have you That's it. seen what Bosnia's like? That's it go on Have you what this is like? And be positive. That was Henry's idea Hen Henry always never talk and spoke about sin. He tal he spoke I know about the love of God. Exactly and I feel Yes Yeah. Yeah. I think we all feel like this don't we? We want to stress the love that He's changed our lives. Yeah but how can How do you prove it to somebody else if they don't haven't known it ? Don't ask me Matt, I've been sitting talking for many long days No no. It's i i i and and sometimes I think to myself, would I love this person that i'm talking to, to become a believer of Christ? And I say to myself, what a long way they've got to go. Well it's only it's only a er er It's only the the the journey from the mind to the heart. Yeah but it's the growing isn't it? Well no, it's an instantaneous journey for many. Oh I do hope so, cos I've never Yeah. seen it Yeah. really. Yeah. I've never never seen or witnessed that . You would you would say you were a gradual conversion ? Mm. I'm still like it now . Yeah. Yeah. Well I wasn't, I was an instantaneous conversion. Mm. still making slow progress aren't you? Oh yes. But I was an instantaneous conversion. Yes. You're still making? Yes. I think everybody progresses, Yeah. all their lives. We are whether you're to your journey's end suddenly or slowly Yes. Yeah, you are. More so than what you think. Does the lord wind up hill all the way,the very end. I must leave now, don't stop now, please carry on. Well I think it's time to stop now. God bless. it does tend to if you Bye bye Jack, take care Bye bye Jack got your mac on his chair. How do we stop this? Right, good morning, has everybody got two handouts, one called can you all hear me okay? Oh, it's the first time I've used one of these so you should have two handouts, one called Advocacy Guide, one called Advocacy Criteria Guide. Has everybody got t those two handouts? Okay, a couple of before we start. If you haven't picked up these two handbooks that are on the table outside, can you do so some time today, okay? So by the end of today make sure you've got those. Also, just a reminder, next week you won't have a lecture at this time. Your lecture will be at eleven o'clock, that's for next Monday. Right, some of you know me, some of you don't. For those who don't, my name is . Erm, and I'm going to be talking to you this morning about advocacy. Now, you may not realize it but you've been in civil litigation and criminal litigation, you've been doing advocacy all term. Because what is advocacy? Presentation, collection of information, preparation of information. It's not just standing in court. Advocacy is the skill of good presentation and information, and that starts on the day that you first interview a client. It goes on when you're actually preparing statements, affidavits, pleadings, all those things which will eventually be used in court. It's not just the end result of standing up in court and representing a client. But this part of the course that we're specifically calling advocacy will concentrate on that part of the skill of advocacy, of the actual standing up and presenting information. Why do you need to know advocacy skills? One of the reasons is because the Law Society says you've got to have advocacy skills, and you'll find in your manual the actual amount or degree of advocacy skills you will eventually have to learn. This is what you might call phase one within the L P C. Phases two and three you will have during your training contracts. Some of you might be thinking, well, I'm never going to advocate, I never intend to go anywhere near a court. Even if you don't, the skill of advocacy, the skill of thinking concisely, presenting clearly, is a useful skill even if you never actually use it in the courtroom. In meetings, in presentations of all kinds, the skill is useful. Those of you going into large practices may think well, I'll never advocate, counsel will do it, but times are changing. Large practices are more and more expecting their solicitors to do their own advocacy, and not instruct counsel. Some large practices are beginning to put themselves forward as specialist advocates for smaller firms who can't specialize in that way. So whichever sort of practice you're going into, you may at some point be required to advocate in some sort of court setting. As I mentioned, you've been getting some advocacy experience, although you might not have realized it, in litigation already. When it comes to the summer in your options that you take there, you will to a lesser or greater extent get some more advocacy experience during the summer. But we're concentrating this week and next week on the advocacy skill of standing up before a court. What's advocacy about? Is it just the contents? Is it the presentation of information? Or are there lots of other things that you need to be aware of? This is the impact that a speaker has when they stand up and speak to a group of people. Only seven percent of the words that they speak, of their impact, based on the words they speak, thirty eight percent is based on their voice and the way that they present that information. Fifty five percent are all the other messages that you're giving out, by the way you stand, the way you dress etcetera. So when you think about when you're preparing for your advocacy exercises, the actual content that you prepare, although important, is not going to have the maximum impact. The maximum impact is going to come from the way you stand, lots of other things, the way you speak that's based on various studies that were done. They weren't on court settings so I would imagine in a court situation perhaps the impact of words is slightly higher, you might expect, but it's still going to be a low percentage in respect of the overall conta image that's put over. So when you are preparing, you need to think about the words you use. They need to be clear, they need to be simple words, they don't need to be complex ones, because you've got to put over what you're saying very clearly. To be effective you've got to structure the information that you give. You will be getting scenarios and you won't be expected to put all that information over in one block, you're expected to structure your information. You also need to develop a persuasive line of argument and we'll come back to those things later on. So let's consider for a moment what are the attributes, the other attributes, that an advocate needs? I'm just going to put the video on for a moment Thank you. I'm sorry, it stops before the jokes start. I'm afraid no matter how good your advocacy performance is, you're never going to get an ovation like that, and we won't expect you to do it in front of that size of audience either. So the reason I put Jasper Carrott up here is just to think for a moment, here's somebody who's obviously a really effective and great communicator. But could you send Jasper Carrott out to court ? Okay, then you would all agree, you've got to put him through the old P C course. Why can't you why can't you send him down to court? What have you got to change about him? His coat, yes. So the way he's, isn't it the way he's dressed for that is fine, but you can't send him down to court like that. The er facial expressions are perhaps over the top for court? Sorry, the unedited version Right, so what have you got, what have you got to change about him? What have we got to change about ourselves? We've got to think about the way we dress. Dress is not going to be compulsory Well, dear, I suppose you really would make an impact then wouldn't you? Erm but we won't, well we're not going to be descriptive, we're not going to ask say that you must wear suits or you must whatever. But our experience is that this sort of ad this sort of presentation interviewing those sorts of things, they're very different forms of presentation. But this form of presentation, which needs to be quite formal, what other students have found is that if you dress formally actually it helps you to act formally, because this sort of presentation is going to be very different. Right, so what are we going to ch we're going to change the way he dresses, we're going to change the mannerisms, various things like that. One of the things you, you've got to do is get used to actually talking standing up and the first thing you do you find when you s talk standing up is you discover that you've got hands. I talk with my hands. Many people talking with their hands. And you've got feet, and you move around. And you've got hair that falls in your face and you sort of, and all those things you've got to learn to cope with because if you're worried about what you're doing with your hands, or your feet, or your hair, then you can't then concentrate on putting over your information effectively. So when you're practising bail application, and I'll talk about that in a moment, think about what you're going to do, how you're going to stand. Those of you who saw today will know that he calls this position the Adam and Eve position. And then there's the Prince Philip position. Or there's holding, anything, that keeps your hands under control. If you know you tend to talk with your hands, how're you gonna keep them under control? The other thing that tends to throw people the first time they every do ad advocacy is that you're going to talk to somebody who will not talk to you, who will not s possibly even smile at you, who won't give you the usual feedback that we're u that we're used to when we're talking to someone. So be prepared for that, be prepared that the person you're going to talk to is not gonna give you that usual to and fro feedback and don't be thrown by that. Preparing, try not to use scripts. When you're preparing what you're going to say, use notes, and I've given you some guidance in the handout on using notes. Why not use a script? Because if you're speaking from a script you're going to be speaking like this. You can't make eye contact if you're speaking to a piece of paper. You can't be persuasive if you're speaking to a piece of paper, if you're reading from a script. Also, what you generally find is that if somebody is reading as opposed to refreshing their memory from looking at a piece of paper and then letting it flow, if they're reading from it it's dull, it lacks sparkle. The words may be brilliant, the sentences may be perfectly constructed but it hasn't got that life in it that the more spontaneous talking will have, and it's less persuasive. Those of you who've done some advocacy before may have used lecterns. You will not be getting lecterns this time around. The reason we've elected not to give you lecterns is you'll never get lecterns in real life. If you go into a real court there aren't lecterns. So you've got to get used to advocating with just an ordinary table, and how do you do that? How do you cope with that? Again, if you're going to be using notes, you don't want to be talking down to a table, so think about whether you're s you're going to, in your practising, are you going to let your eyes flick down to your notes that're on the paper, on the table, or are you gonna pick them up? Are you going to just have them in front of you so you can flick your eyes up and down to remind yourself what you're next going to say? Don't hold them too far up. Remember in your content that you're representing a client. The court isn't really concerned about your views, it's concerned about your client and the argument you can formulate for the client that you're representing. Be realistic about your client's position. Don't try to paint a picture of your client being the perfect citizen if he's not the perfect citizen. The other thing to remember, you're trying to persuade the court to your views, or the view that you're putting forward for your client, you're not telling the court what they must think. You're putting over information on the basis that the only thing that a t an intelligent person think I'm saying to you now, what's going to be the effect of that on the listener? If somebody says you must think this, the only way of doing it is, that's not going to be persuasive. So you've got to think in terms of persuasion. Right, what are we going to expect you to do? The first exercise you're doing is a bail application. And the timetable for that will be going out on the, the noticeboard some time this afternoon. Now some of you will be doing your bail application on Wednesday and some on Friday. Because, and you'll be given the instructions for those in your small group sessions today. Because the, we can't put all of you into, that're doing advocacy into one small group session, you may find yourselves with a different tutor, or at a different time, to when you would normally have your small group session. So be careful to make sure you find your number on the timetable and know where you're going and who you're going to be with. Also, you're going to be doing it in fours, so four will you, four of you will arrive at the beginning of the session, and four of you will arrive half way through. And those of you who ar who arrive half way through will need to wait outside. All the times that you need to arrive at you will find on the timetable. The first session is designed to be one that gives y gets you accustomed to advocacy, to be non-threatening, and to be one where you can simply literally find your feet and get used to advocating in that way. You won't be given a great deal of feedback in that session, just enough to get you going. The majority of the feedback you're going to get to help you find your advocacy skills will be after the supervised litigation that you'll do next week. I think you were all given a timetable last Monday which showed where the various advocacy things are going to be. So this week you'll do a three minute application, you'll see the way in which th that's going to be done from the instructions in the small group session that you'll get today. Non-threatening, try and relax, just try and get used to standing on your feet. It will be videoed, to se you'll make two applications within that small group session and a second will be videoed but only for you to see so that you can take it away and try and learn from er seeing yourself on video. The second advocacy exercise is on that first er timetable called unsupervised mitigation. You'll be given a ro a pair of you will be given a room on your own, and a video camera, and asked to practise advocacy skills plea in mitigation. And the second ad the third advocacy will be the supervised mitigation when you'll do it with a tutor and then have separate individual feedback given to you. When you come to the small group session this week, you'll need to bring with you your video tape. Make sure it's at a point on the video tape where it can be recorded immediately because there won't be time to find the right point, and also make sure you bring with you a watch because you're going to need to be very tight on, on times, so try and remember to bring a watch with you. All the pieces of advocacy that we're going to ask you to do are short. Three or four minutes is all that we're going to ask you to do each time. One of the reasons for that is that one of the skills of the advocate is to learn to be concise and to get over the message very quickly, and that's one of the reasons for giving you a short period of time. The other thing that's available to you in making your preparation is a video of local practitioners. It will be available from tomorrow morning. You'll be able to borrow it from the office downstairs and view it in the library. On that video you'll find three local practitioners. They, on that video, are bill er bail applications, applications for plea in mitigation applications and three examples of how not to make an application before the court. All three are very experienced advocates before the courts but all three of them have deliberately done one application wrong, so you can see the typical things that advocates do do that should not be done. And I think, if you look at that video, it will actually perhaps encourage you because it sh yes, those are experienced advocates, I'm not expecting you to refine your skills to that level, but I think if you see the, the erm the level of which experienced advocates advocate at it will actually perhaps make you relax a little, if you see the stand realize that the standard we're expecting you to go to is not, not anywhere near quite as high as that. I'm going to show you an excerpt now from that video. The full video will be available tomorrow morning. Please, your worship, this is a most unfortunate case. My client's a young man of thirty six years of age. He appears before the court for the first time for what is essentially a domestic assault on his girlfriend. Perhaps I can give you some of the background to this particular matter. My client and his girlfriend have been together for some six year, they have three children aged six, five and four. They originally lived in the home counties but came up to this area two years ago. Er, my client has been in business at the u his own firm supplying computer software in a specialized market, that is stock control systems for clubs, pubs and restaurants. You can imagine this has meant him working very long hours, one of the other problems he has is he suffers from diabetes. Working long hours also means that er he also gets very tired and, as he now acknowledges, when he's tired he tends to be short-tempered. That then is the background to this particular incident. Because of his working hours he is not giving as much time as he ought perhaps to his family, although he's always tried to ensure that weekends are devoted to his children. When this incident occurred he'd been working on a project in Harlow in Essex setting up another system. This had entailed him working long hours. On the Friday before the incident occurred he had not got home until three o'clock in the morning. He'd then had to drive back down to Harlow again the following morning to sort out further problems with the system. Returning about tea time, he'd then gone out once more to deliver some computer disks for another project he was running in Heanor. He returned home about eight o'clock in the evening, feeling absolutely exhausted, and as he said, all he wanted to do was go to sleep. There had been problems in his relationship with his girlfriend and indeed he'd come to see my firm about six months ago because of the deterioration in that relationship and had general advice then about his legal position should there be a separation. He had not come back after he had been given general advice, and he had what he describes as an uneasy peace in the relationship with his girlfriend. She was insistent in case there should be a separation that he should make some form of, of proper financial arrangement for them, a legally binding agreement. When he returned home very tired on the Saturday evening she turned on him and began nagging him again about the possibility of a separation and that he should make proper commitment to her. Unfortunately, in the course of that discussion, he lost his temper with her, there was a struggle and she suffered some minor bruises and scratches. The police were called, my client was arrested and was detained at the police station from about midnight on the Saturday until eventually he appeared before the court about four o'clock on the Monday afternoon. He'd been in custody there for nearly thirty six hours altogether. He was then released on bail and, as is the custom, the police required conditions of his bail that he should not go back to his girlfriend's address to prevent any possibility of any further offending. He therefore has been living with friends, sleeping on their floors, for the last few weeks, because he's complied explicitly with the conditions of his bail. He's therefore not been able to contact his girlfriend, he's not been able to see his children, er, although he has missed them very much. He now says that he does love his girlfriend, he does want to make that relationship work, and he's very hopeful of making a reconciliation. Madam may feel that having spent so much time in custody for the first offence that he has already suffered sufficient punishment, he's been kept away from his girlfriend and children, and under those circumstances I would urge you Madam to take a lenient course of action, to make him the subject of a conditional discharge. Apart from anything else, that'll ensure the court that he is not tempted to be involved in any similar incident in the future with is girlfriend. And Madam, I'd also ask you to say that to to him to pay compensation for the minor injuries she's suf she's suffered and of course you have to consider that's a point in a case involving assault, would be to add insult to injury, and would not assist the parties in coming to terms with their relationship and hopefully attempting a reconciliation. Right, so is a very experienced advocate. If you can get it as good as that your first time up you must be a natural. Cos if you notice, hardly any moving around, if you think about had a go and think about , the dress is different, the manner is different, the voice is different, very little facial expression even, certainly very little movement, but good eye contact. The whole of the way through that he was looking at the person he was trying to im not staring at them, but good eye contact, so if you're trying to influence somebody there's no point in looking somewhere else. You look at that person. Let's have a look at how deliberately did this one wrong. Please your worships, I appear on behalf of Mr Smith this morning. He's a man of er of previous good character. He's er, he's er, twenty er no thirty six years of age, thirty six years of age Madam. He appears before the court for the first time, he's of previous good character and erm and er has never been in trouble with the courts before and er Madam I'm going to suggest to you that this incident was brought about not by any fault of his own, but, but by his girlfriend and her behaviour towards him. I ask you to deal him leniently in that because of that. Madam, my client's thirty six years of age and lives with his girlfriend. He has been working very long hours setting up in business here in er in this area er he gets home late at night and I'm afraid to say that over the last few months he's been nagged continuously by his girlfriend who wants him to try and sort out financial arrangements because the relationship between the two of them's not been very good. He comes home late night, one Saturday night, having been working long hours, not having enough sleep, she nags him and Madam he loses his temper with her and Madam, I am sure that you and I in our relationships same sort of stress in a different situation where, where we've been nagged by our partners and lost our temper and pushed them about, or whatever, and we'd be very surprised I think to find ourselves in, in my client's situation had that happened, because what, what happened here Madam was that erm the girlfriend suffered some minor injuries, nothing to worry about really . I think Madam yeah she complains Madam of er scratches to her arms and bruises to her upper arms where he allegedly grabbed hold of her erm and that really is it, nothing to worry about at all. sort this out sensibly, the police overreact, they arrest him at midnight in the clothes he stands up in, they take him down to the police station, he's held in the police station for about thirty six hours or so, something like that, er instead of being brought before the court straight away and released on bail straight away, they, they keep him in custody where he's never been before, er and Madam he's then released on bail but court imposes silly conditions on him, conditions that he shouldn't go back to his home address, he can't go and see his girlfriend, he can't go and see his children, er, and Madam it seems to be an abuse of the process really of the court to behave in this way. He's therefore been stuck, living on er friends' floors for the last few weeks, not being able to go back to his girlfriend and not being able to see his children, er and Madam that's had an effect on his, on his business as well. So Madam I'm asking you to say that these circumstances, this is the sort of case that should never have come before the court, it should've been sorted out between the parties themselves, with the aid of their solicitors, and that it's only the overreaction of the police in this particular circumstance that brings him before the court here. He's got no previous convictions. Madam, I'm gonna ask you to say in those circumstances that we should give him the maximum discharge. You appreciate that means he has no, effectively no record at all and that seems to me to balance up what's happened here against er against the fact that he's got no previous convictions Madam. I think to impose any other penalty upon him would merely be to exacerbate the situation. He's suffered enough. He's been in custody for two or three, three days, thirty six hours or something like that already, and not been able to see his family, and er got into all sorts of mess because of that Madam. Er er and it seems to me that the court shouldn't be clogged up with cases like this. So I'd ask you Madam to go along with what I'm suggesting and make him the subject of an absolute discharge so that he doesn't have any previous court er any, any convictions or anything like that on his record. And Madam I'd ask you not to make any award for compensation to his girlfriend cos that's just gonna add insult to injury really, isn't it? So Madam I'd ask you to go along with what I'm suggesting, that's an absolute discharge and er About the only thing he got right was what he called the magistrate, he called her a madam, because when you're appearing before a stipendiary magistrate, one magistrate on their own, it's sir or madam. Yeah, the hands, no structure, did you notice he hardly ever looked at the magistrate, although yeah his voice projection was still good because he's an experienced advocate, but he was talking to the table nearly the whole time. Now if you, if he, as I hope you will do, have a look at the full versions, you can have a look at the shorter excerpt in a moment. If you have a look at the four versions of the videos, I hope what you'll do is have in front of you er the advocacy criteria guide, which we'll speak a bit more about in a moment, and actually look and see well, how is it that these people meet, those things, they don't necessarily but how, how are they persuasive advocates? Okay, let's look at a slightly different style. Again another very experienced advocate. This first one is only an excerpt because I'm then going to contrast it with how not to do it Sorry, I think it's worth noting some of the circumstances giving rise to Mrs Brown er committing the offences which bring her before the court today. So you're dealing with a fifty one year old lady, she's never been in trouble, has no previous convictions, a lady, Sir, who divorced in nineteen seventy six, she brought three children up single-handedly and so she has done all she can, er often at great personal sacrifice, to ensure the best financial stability and the best emotional support for her children. She's perhaps done what most working mothers do, she's put the children first. She had a good working record. Er, Sir, she was working in the care sector as a residential home manager. She held a position of trust and responsibility. That was until about two years ago when unfortunately the home where she worked was closed down and she was made redundant. It was at that stage, Sir, that Mrs Brown made a claim for benefit to support herself and her eleven year old son and so that claim for benefit was a perfectly legitimate one. Sir, in June nineteen ninety two Mrs Brown er successfully obtained temporary work working for the Nottingham Community Hospice as a nursing auxiliary and the work was initially intended to be for a period of about three months. It was on a temporary basis. She wasn't sure as to whether er it would work out. It was er at that stage in her life her two eldest children returned home, her daughter because she'd fallen pregnant and her son because his marriage had unfortunately broken down. Very different style, and you've got to find your own style because it's got to be one that suits you. If you noticed copes with his hands by pushing them behind his back, copes with them by having her papers in her hand. But again, she's making good eye contact, both of them only let their eyes flick down to their notes to remind themselves of the next point they want to make. Now their notes. People's notes to how full they are. What I would advise you to do is not use whole sentences in your notes because then you'll be tempted to read from the notes. So notes that're in true note form. Write down enough that you feel confident that if your mind blanks you've got enough there to remind you what you want to say. But then use some method of highlighting key words or underlining or sub- heading that pe you can just flick your eyes to and remind you very quickly of what you're going to say. gave a brief history, brief outline of the case. She did then, did go on and develop her argument more. But let's contrast that with when did it deliberately wrong Sir,very very serious charge and I'm sure that you'll be thinking about sending her er to prison today. I mean, she's told you about her three children but er I suppose she should've thought of that, shouldn't she, before she signed on? Still, her children are quite young and erm and I, I think she's sorry for what she's done. Erm, erm, I have got a note of their ages somewhere. Er, er, it doesn't matter about that but there are three young children. Er, it is an awful lot of money of course. How much is it, two thousand pounds, well she's offered to pay it back at two pounds a week and er it's gonna take a long time, isn't it, Sir, for her to pay it back? But er she does want to pay it back, she does want to pay it back, and er well she wants to pay it back, erm, if you could start it this time next year she'd be er she would be grateful for that. Er, she is sorry, she's sorry that she's committed er she committed the offence. Er, and I don't think she's been in trouble before. Mrs White, have you been in trouble before? No, the culprit has not been er in trouble before. Erm, yeah,sh I know you'll be thinking about sending her to prison today but if you could think of anything else that erm, I don't know, a suspended sentence or something like that, then obviously she'd, she'd be really grateful for that, wouldn't you, Mrs, yeah erm, er, Mrs White is there anything else you want me to say? Er, well, I think that's it for Mrs White then. Okay, so when you come to look at these videos, okay, slightly exaggerated but if you go down to court, and you might like to go down to the hall or somewhere locally, you'll actually find that there are advocates who do what did deliberately wrong and what did deliberately wrong. Perhaps not quite as exaggerated but v very similar. And wh because one of the things that they were deliberately doing as if they were unprepared. Sorry if some of you are still a bit cold but I thought the heater had been turned on, but it doesn't seem to be doing anything. Erm, if you're prepared you haven't got to fumble with your notes, the ums and aahs are less, the facts flow, you call your client the right name, and you can concentrate on the presentation. The one that, when y if you look at those, look at, don't just concentrate on the ones which are right, concentrate on the ones that were wrong too and say, why are they wrong? Yeah, they're amusing and those sort of things and obviously they're deliberately wrong, but have a look and see why, what is it because they do contain errors that are commonly made day after day in courts. Right, if you could have a look for a moment at your criteria guide. Let's just look at what we're expected to do. This is what we'll use at every stage of the advocacy exercises. It'll be used for the bail, it'll be used for the mitigation, and it will be used for your assessment. Dirty word, assessment, but we'll come back to that in a minute. Right. A few typing errors, please ignore those. I haven I haven't developed a new word at number six, that is overall presents her argument in a confident and persuasive manner. Right, let's just think about these. Selects relevant facts. So you select from the information you're given the facts that are relevant to the application you're making that day, whether it be bail or whether it be a plea in mitigation. What's relevant to your application? What are you asking the court to do? What are you trying to persuade them to do? If it's bail, you're trying to get your client released, possibly with conditions. If it's plea in mitigation, you're tr remember your client has been convicted at that point. I've had many students who've done this in front of me who've started off by saying, my client is not a criminal. He's just been convicted. So, erm, remember what it is you're trying to achieve. With plea in mitigation, you're trying to minimize the sentence, within realistic boundaries. Argument is concise and to the point. One of the other things about those two that were wrong was that they rambled, they were all over the place, there was no conciseness, no clarity to them. Main points are effective. Again, those two that were wrong were all over the place and not an effective sequence. Maintains good eye contact. Both the ones where they did it right, they maintained good eye contact with the person they were trying to persuade. They didn't stare at them but had good eye contact. You're doing it wrong if you're not looking at the person that you're trying to persuade. Speaks clearly. You can do all this beautifully, but if you can't be heard it's a waste of time. It doesn't mean you've got to, should, doesn't mean you've got to have a loud voice, it just means you've got to speak, speak clearly and slowly enough to be clear. You know yourself whether you tend to go quickly or whatever. Practise these things. Actually in the next few days stand up at home, speak it, say it, record it if you want to. See what you sound like. But speak, when you start to speak, if you know that when you're nervous that you will ramble on, you'll go quickly, remember that, so that as you start remember to slow down. If you can't slow down, then deliberately pause so that the person who's listening to you has an opportunity to mentally catch up on what you're saying. So if your voice is quick, make sure you put in pauses, or find some other method of coping with it in that way. Overall is confident and persuasive. You can be as nervous as anything inside, if what you're saying comes over confidently and persuasively, that's what matters. So good preparation. All advocates. The one thing that really marks them out is good preparation, so that when they stand up in court they haven't got to think much about the content cos it's at their finger tips, they know it, they know Mrs Brown's age, they know how many children she's got, they haven't got to think about it. They just concentrate on presenting that information. Right, let's summarize where we've got to, and what you're going to be doing. When you're preparing, prepare well. The relevant law you will need to know, and the relevant law you will find in the manual you've got, you won't need to look anywhere other than the manuals, it's all going to be in there. So you won't need to be searching through anywhere else. Remember, when you're given your fact scenarios, to take out of those scenarios the information that you think is relevant and structure it. If you simply regurgitate word for word what's in the fact scenario, that's not going to be persuasive. You need to structure it in a way that fits in with the argument that you're go the line of argument you're going to be putting before the magistrate. And develop a persuasive argument. Practise out loud. Practise it standing up. Practise in front of a mirror. But if you practise it sitting down, your voice'll be very different, the speed of your voice will be different, and if you don't practise it out loud you won't be able to get any idea of whether it's going to take three minutes or not. The only way to really gauge how long a pr presentation will take when you say it out loud, is to practise it out loud. Because you will be kept strictly to time. You've got three minutes, a few seconds over, and then you'll be asked to stop. It can be shorter than three minutes. Don't worry if it's shorter. Most people, when they practise out loud, speak more slowly. They're in a relaxed situation in their own home. Stand them up in front of somebody, tutor, and they'll speak more quickly. If you're three minutes at home, then you're fine, most likely that will mean you're up slightly under the three minutes when you do it before your tutor. But that's the way to get your guide, that's the way to practise. And concentrate on those points that are in the advocacy criteria guide in making your preparations. You'll all be given the instructions for the small group sessions for bail today. If you've got any questions, you can ask your tutor then, or you can come and see me. Are there any questions at this stage? Any points that you, you immediately know you want to ask? No. Right. Thank you all very much. We certainly will be today. Erm I it looks as though everybody's gone anonymous on me today. Could you please turn your name boards round so we can see who's who. Thank you very much. Er the other rule with well method of procedure, most of you know about it, but if you want to attract my attention during the course of the discussion simply put your name board up on end and we can see who wants to speak. We also yes I must remind you that we have read the papers so I don't necessarily want to go through it word by word line by line er but obviously when you want to make a point you will refer back to those papers but don't you must assume that we have read them and that everybody else has read them. Er today we're going to look at this Policy E two, the op open countryside, and there are presented to you for the discussion three matters. And the first one is, Is the policy required and if so does it give sufficient guidance. The next matter is, Is the proposed policy too restrictive and does it adequately reflect national policy guidance on the need to rural enterprise and diver diversification of the rural economy. Now obviously B does follow quite properly from A but let's start off with Mr Williamson picking up the question, Is the policy required and if so does it give everybody sufficient guidance. Mr Williams. Thank you Chairman. Ken Williamson North Yorkshire County Council. Chairman, much has been said during the course of this examination about the quality of the environment in North Yorkshire. Particular emphasis has been placed on the fact that the county embraces the best part of two national parks as well as two and a half areas of outstanding natural beauty and a heritage coast. Collectively these areas of national designation cover about forty five percent of the three thousand two hundred square miles which constitute the county of North Yorkshire. As befits their status they are the subject constructed on Policy E one which affords high priority to conservation landscapes and general amenity. The majority of the remaining seventeen hundred square miles or so of the county also comprises open countryside. Most of it's vastly populated and punctuated by well defined compact small market towns and villages. The majority of this remaining countryside is also of a high quality deserving in the County Council's view protection in the words of P P G seven for the sake of its beauty, the diversity of its landscapes, the wealth of its natural resources and its ecological, agricultural and vacational value. There is however no existing policy, control development and change across this wide countryside. This represents in our view a major gap in the strategic policy framework for such an extensive rural county and one which is becoming increasingly in need of filling. Chairman, back in nineteen eighty when the County Council's original structure plan submission was examined, the panel who subsequently the Secretary of State rejected the proposal for a policy to control development in the open countryside outside the nationally designated areas, primarily to suggest that on the grounds that the agricultural policy in the plan were equally capable of achieving the objectives sort by the proposed open countryside policy. Chairman, I think in nineteen eighty this was quite possibly true. Thirteen years on er the situation has changed and changed quite dramatically. It is no longer Government policy to retain as much agricultural land in productive use as then. At the same time new places have been exerted on the countryside almost daily. Although they were at the agricultural policies undoubtedly continue to be relevant, still have a significant part to play in many current situations. It is undoubtedly true their role and application in the nineteen nineties is significantly different from that envisaged back in nineteen eighty. County Council believes therefore that is is now appropriate to clarify the strength of the general thrust of strategic policy as regards the development of the open countryside by introducing its new Policy E two. County Council's encouraged by the fact that the introduction Policy E two is supported by all the North Yorkshire Districts and they are after all at the sharp end of implementing structure policy. It's largely on the alerting of the County Council's decided to incorporate such a policy in this alteration. County Council's similarly encouraged by the widest support inclusion of the policy has elicited, as I say at least in principle Chairman, and most of the respondents to alteration number three. I think in this context there are very few people who have actually said it is not relevant or appropriate to introduce introduce the policy at this stage. Chairman, I think I should say in proposing the proposed Policy E two it should be stressed the County Council's not seeking to introduce a policy of restraint and restriction on the development which attempts to mirror that already applying within any of the nationally designated areas. The County Council fully recognizes that this would be appropriate, inappropriate sorry, and unacceptably constraining. Nevertheless it does believe it is appropriate that the strategic thrust of the policy should be based on the premise that development proposals likely to be consid considered acceptable in the open countryside will in a sense represent the exception rather than the rule. And the early reading of P P G seven it seems to me it's apparent that the principle messages are that the development in open countryside should be strictly controlled, and I would underline that point strictly controlled, and that the countryside should be safeguarded for its own sake and non-renewable and natural resources should be afforded protection. It is I would suggest similarly evident that P P G seven expects most new development in rural areas to be directed to rural villages and small country towns and that it should be sensitively related to existing settlement patterns under the historic wildlife and landscape resources of the area. County Council believes that this advice and guidance is synonymous with the view that is taken that development of the open countryside will in fact represent the exception rather than the rule and that new development would not normally be permitted. The policy as now presented to the panel for consideration in the County Council's view therefore represents and provides a clear strategic statement covering the processes involved in changing the wide open countryside and beyond rural settlements and such areas identified for development purposes within those settlements could maybe identified in the appropriate drawn up plans. As such it is considered to pro provide an appropriate level at the strategic policy guidance within which District Councils can development their local planned policies, taking into account local circumstances and conditions and indeed the appropriate balance to be struck between the rural economy and protection of the environment. This view is supported by the District Councils who are united in their opposition for a policy incorporating more detailed guidance, particularly if it is sort to identify specific categories of exceptions likely to be considered to represent appropriate development in the countryside. Thank you Chairman. Thank you. Anyone want to pick up the ball and run with it and would question whether it is considered necessary and does it give you sufficient guidance at strategic level? Mr Donson. Thank you Chairman. Roy Donson House Builders' Federation. I would very much like to pick up the ball and run with it as to whether this policy is necessary or not. Erm we've heard from Mr Williamson that it fills a strategic gap and guidance and that pressures on the countryside are exerted daily and curiously enough it wasn't a policy of restraint or restriction. I can't agree with any of those things. The reason for bringing forward this policy was because it, as Mr Williamson said, is the District Councils felt there was a need to fill a strategic er a gap in strategic guidance. And not until this morning when erm Richmondshire cir circulated their erm evidence have I seen any example of er be given a pressure which er which is being exerted. You will remember erm er er as Mr Williamson outlined the counties covered by wholesalers and designations already protecting er the countryside. And you will recall that in relation to Policy H one that I I I submitted to table which is called from Selby District Council showing the extent of that coverage both not only national designation but also of local designation. And that showed that sixty eight percent of the county is actually covered by one form of national or local environmental restraint. But that did not include agricultural land grades one two or three A which are also covered by another policy, Policy A three. If you also take that away and you also take away land which is already covered by settlement, I would suggest that you're left with very little and so what's the strategic gap? I think I would submit that there isn't really a strategic gap. There may have been one or two planning applications which have been a little bit difficult to deal with but that's life surely. We have to make decisions, that's what planning is about coming to decisions. And that in fact what we already have in this county is a balance of policies which substantially favour environmental protection and this is just a means of adding another one which is another hurdle for any department to erm to to actually er meet. If there is if there are no er examples of er er dev individual examples of development pressure, as I say we have one apparently presented to us this morning I think one over a period er since nineteen eighty seven, it's not a basis for a policy. And you you will know as well in relation to Policy H one that it was said that if fact development housing development in particular 's kept pace more or less with the er the policy of er the the policy set out in the structure plan. The exception to that of course is York but York wouldn't be affected by this open countryside policy er at all. What I would see this policy as doing would be simply to bring an element of restraint er which er would be formulated in way in which it would within the local plans so that tight boundaries would be drawn around settlements, the rest of the land would be designated as under this policy as E two land and the debate as to whether the extent of that land was necessary or not would be negated because it would be subsumed as being there simply er meeting the strategic policy. If we contrast that er view of what will happen in future district plans with what has actually happened under the Hambleton District plan which I know you have a copy of. There in the absence of an E two policy the council has undertaken a full landscape assessment of its area outside the settlement. Now it may well be that er the Federation of Hambleton disagree about what the importance of of that landscape assessment is precisely. But nevertheless it's been done and the debate can be held under the auspices of the District Plan. We aren't prevented from having the debate and indeed in having that debate Hambleton will have to prove they've made drawn the right boundaries. We wouldn't they wouldn't be have to deal with that it was simply having a poli a blanket policy. There also seems to me to be some confusion of emphasis which which adds to my concern that in fact the Government policy talks about strict control of development away, and I emphasize the word away, from settlements. Yet this particular policy is intended and it says so in the explanatory memorandum, that it's to be once established as open count open countryside would be out immediately outside the settlements. We will fight all land which is not er part of the settlement. And it seems to me there is a grave danger that once established as open countryside and in an area in need of protection, it will be heavens only job to move that in future years. And in fact the intention would be in effect that this will in fact like greenbelt and I would point to the Harrogate District er Harrogate Rural Area Study and er that's been submitted by Harrogate Council as an example of er showing that that is the precise intention of this sort of policy. Because even in the absence of strategic guidance in the past it hasn't stopped local authorities actually bringing forward policies in their local plans. The difference is, of course, that those policies have got to be tested if each individual case appropriateness and er I I do feel that if we have a blanket policy then we won't be able to test it. You then have to ask yourself the question, If there isn't any Government, if there isn't any er local development pressure of any substance which has brought about the need for this policy, has there been some sort of quantum change in Government policy which has necessitated that we give emphasis to this particular issue. Well my view of that is that yes we do have new P P G seven which we didn't have at the time of the last structure plan alteration. But by and large that's just a further clarification of some aspects and it's not a quantum change of policy, all it did is collect together wholesalers of circulars etcetera er and and present them in a in a slightly er more concise way. But there's no, it seems to me there's no fundamental change in Government policy and if you are only bringing forward er a change in policy er to this alteration on the basis that er there was some extra P P G guidance we wouldn't just be dealing with countryside policy here we would be dealing with a policy about telecommunications, wind farms, a whole raft of things er which which we ought to be really dealing with. It may be at the end of end of all this that you you are nevertheless convinced that there ought to be a policy. If that were the case then I would say to you that there must be some exceptions to it and the one exception I am particularly concerned with, and it's up to others to bring forward their particular exceptions, is that of rural affordable housing. I have more than made that point in my submission. But it does seem to be again if we're going back to Government guidance who are justifying extra policies to be brought forward to this alteration, it is a serious omission this alteration that there is no policy which deals with rural affordable housing. Surely that has been one of the major changes of Government policy over the last few years. So I would say to you as part of this opening submission that there is no need for this policy, it is various, there must be a safe plan for rural affordable housing. Thank you very much Mr Donson. Anyone else want to Hello. Can I ask Mr Donson for a bit more explanation. You've argued that the very fact of E two will result in tight boundaries around rural settlements. Surely where the boundaries are around rural settlements, whether or not there are boundaries around rural settlements, doesn't flow from E two but flows from decisions that district councils are free to make at the moment. I don't understand your argument that having an E two type policy and without prejudice to what it may say, will make discussions at the local plan level about where boundaries are, more difficult or less difficult. It doesn't seem to me to affect it in any way. Well I I erm Roy Donson House Builders' Federation, I I think it will because if you take Hambleton as an example and and and and we've seen in more detail stage one er more detailed justification for the boundaries of some particular settlements in the Hambleton District Plan er based on a based on a landscape analysis. Now it seems to me that they are challenging on that basis that they can it can be it can be detailed at the local level that individual boundaries can be challenged. If, however, you simply have a designation which says, This is E two land this is in conformity with the structure plan which, incidentally, hasn't been proved in my view in relation to development pressure nor landscape quality, nevertheless you just say this is E two land, then it seems to me that it's very difficult to argue that it is open countryside. It may well be open countryside, we can all agree that it's it's it's beyond this it's currently beyond the settlement. But is the boundary drawn in the right place or not. Could well be negated because all we're saying is that the counter argument to it is we're simply conforming with the structure plan. I'm still not sure I understand why the effect of the E two words is to make Because it applies the situation's significantly different bearing in mind the primary requirement on the planning system by virtue of P P G one to provide ade adequately for development. That erm well two things. One one one first of all the policy is meant to apply to all land which is outside outside of the settlement. That is what it says in in in the in the explanatory memorandum. That's the first point. The second point is that once established that that is open countryside under the terms of this particular policy then it would be very difficult to make a future change to that. Now it may well be that the whole balance of things is that we're generally okay for the moment but it seems to me that as time goes on and there's a need to review plans and there's a need to make further provision that it would be very very difficult indeed against a blanket policy as opposed to individual justifications around ind er individual settlements. But surely Mr Donson, E two, and I use your phrase, E two land doesn't carry with it anywhere near the same degree of status er as A O N B or triple S I I I I I I I or greenbelt surely? I I I sir that we we may be able to erm argue that here today it may be very difficult once it's established, especially in the public mind that that that there is that there E two land I fear would be not only interpreted unless there's some justification for me saying this because that's what it says in the in the in the Harrogate Rural Areas Plan. They they something like, and I'll look it up for the precise wording, that this would be acting like greenbelt. I think once that sort of phrase gets within the public domain then it would be very difficult to shift that er in the future. Yes I mean that may be a public perception. I suppose it would depend very much on how it was presented. Er now let me ask the Planners whether they see that as the way in which they would be trying to operate this policy through the local plan. Mr Jewitt. Er Michael Jewitt, Hambleton District Council. Er well Chairman I don't think that erm E two erm as proposed will weaken people's ability to challenge our District Local Plan policies. Our District Local Plan policies will be our interpretation of the application of E two erm in the light of er national planning policy guidance. Erm the development limits the landscape policies that have been referred to are our response to a number of considerations, erm protection of the open countryside is just one of those. Now that's our inter purely our interpretation of the policy and clearly that would be open to challenge in the District Local Plan Enquiry. I don't really see how erm it is going to in any way weaken people's ability to make an effective er objection. Mr Williamson. Thank you Chairman. Er Ken Williamson North Yorkshire. Really just a point of clarification on one popular matters that erm Mr Thomson raised about er limits of settlement. I think it seems to me he's missed er the point in the explanatory memorandum that he made. The relevant statement reads, The policy will fight all land outside existing rural areas other than when is specifically indicated in the structure planning in local plan. So it takes into account er what what the development plan should be doing which is to make adequate reasonable allocation in the context of the the the broad strategy of the structure plan erm and I don't see any reason to believe that once that has been done erm the remaining plan outside those areas shouldn't be treated as open countryside. Professor Markham. Er David Lock sir. Erm I should like to reinforce and supplement what er Mr Donson has said er from the house building point of view perhaps with a broader perspective of er development than just the house building industry. I notice from the erm County Council's own er document for today that they remind us that the Panel in looking at the present structure plan in nineteen eighty erm considered whether the county's wish at that time to have this broad erm kind of sweeping up policy was appropriate. He reminds us of this erm he says that, At that time in nineteen eighty the Panel felt that they weren't convinced it was necessary to include such a sweeping up policy since there's a whole battery of other policies in the plan which were designed to protect erm the special parts of the countryside in the county. Now what we're hearing today in in the document that's been put in by the County is that their assertion is that since nineteen eighty the changing erm common agriculture policy has meant that more farm land in the county is coming into play for development than was the case in nineteen eighty erm not least of all through set aside and general policies of diversification. And that the county feels that there is a case for this sweeping up policy now in nineteen ninety three whereas in nineteen eighty the Panel had felt it to be inappropriate. So the main reason, that's just sorry it's a long way of getting to it sir but, the main change in circumstance that the county is putting forward since nineteen eighty compared with today is that agricultural policy means that more farmland is being diversified and they feel the need at county level to have a sweep-up policy to control that process. The other reason, there is only two reasons, the other reason the county gives for wanting this Policy E two now in nineteen ninety three erm is that the districts have all asked for it. A popular expression of demand from the district councils. Now I think what erm and my feelings on this er are very much er similar to Mr Donson's and I'm grateful for the calculation he has done for us all. But this particular county is extremely well covered by special forms of countryside protection both through national park, heritage coast, A O N B and as was mentioned in a rather a throwaway fashion but in terms of grade one, two and three A O N agricultural land. There really isn't much of the county that isn't covered already by those kinds of protections. And it seems to me perfectly understandable that the local planning authorities in the county would like to take one hundred percent control of the unbuilt upon part of the county. But the fact of the matter is that that isn't Government policy. It is not Government policy that all land everywhere should be subject to special constraint. Explicitly Government policy to the opposite. So it seemed to me, sir, that we need a very very special justification for this all embracing E two policy which brings me to the other thing to say about it as a general principle. Erm the questions you were asking just now were testing a possible implication that this policy is so weak in general, no no not weak, so general in its application that it really doesn't get in the way, it's testing that kind of hypothesis, and erm all I can say is from experience in North Yorkshire that, even without this policy since nineteen eighty, the county has been using its assertion of its need to protect the countryside generally as its policy position to stop things happening outside towns and villages and that with this policy in place we could see that a general position of the county maintained and then reinforced. And somebody has to say that under Section fifty four A if this kind of policy exists in the county structure plan it will be extremely difficult for any proposer erm of development outside built-up areas, existing built-up areas, to proceed. This is a genuine obstruction in this Policy E two of the most serious kind. And so in conclusion I looking at it and the exhibitions we've made to you and to the county in the course of the consultation draft is that this county does not need this policy and that it is in fact an insidious and repressive kind of policy that it contrary to national planning guidance and should not be included in the alterations. Can I pick up on that last point Professor Lock and throw out a question generally in response to what you and Mr Donson have said. What would be the effect on a Policy E two which said development in the a , applications for development in the open countryside would be determined in accordance with national policy set out in P P G seven. No not the last bit because there's there's bits of Government policy related to the countryside that isn't in P P G seven it's normally under P P Gs. I throw that into the arena on the basis that P P G seven exists it is not a policy in the terms of Section fifty four A unless it is made a policy in the terms of Section fifty four A. Nevertheless it is a material consideration in all applications be before the local authority or before the Secretary of State. If I could just say something, I know Mr I know you will sir, but erm just. That would work for those kinds of developments which P P G seven is addressing. Erm what would present problems in real life I think would be developments of a larger kind than that in which a new settlement er might be one strategic site if we had such a policy might be another. Erm and er P P G seven doesn't really give us a way through on that. I I was leaving the the sort of exceptions part of it and the game at the moment and asking, because I appreciate that you and Mr Donson for different reasons both want erm a policy that provides for exceptions. Can sticking with the sort of the general non-strategic development in the countryside, would such a policy work, would it be better than E two as proposed, would it be worse, would it be weaker? Er I will I will hand over but let me just say this that my instinct is that it a policy expressed in the way you've you've suggested is just superfluous because all you're doing is describing in in a po in upper case letters, the situation as it is and that that my answer is that it would that there would be no need for such a it would be gratuitously ap it's an unnecessary statement. Oh my reason for including it was Section fifty four A. To bring P P G seven and so on into the statutory plan Yes yes. and therefore make it enforceable. I I I mean I don't think you need to do that but er that's my response to your question. Roy Donson House Builders' Federation. I I I I think the erm situation that Miss Whittaker describes is the situation that we have today. What what what we have is a serious of local plans which include policies for protecting land and they are working perfectly well in achieving that objective. And the other material consideration or one of the other material considerations that comes into play for to determine particular applications is indeed Government guidance. So that's exactly the position that we have and there had been no proof as far as I can see to to demonstrate that in fact the present situation is not working. Patently the present situation is working and therefore that's part of it and what I would say is that that this additional policy if it isn't necessary because there there isn't any development pressure, then what is its purpose. I would submit its purpose is another piece of anti-development er strategy for for this particular county. I think there is there there is there is an issue that it isn't as simple as just where are we today and and and where are the boundaries of the settlement as Mr Williamson said. We've got to consider the situation of some form of flexibility and it presupposes that if you have a policy in which the settlements are drawn and I suppose I I think they will be tightly drawn, development yes is allocated in accordance with the structure plan. But that and then the rest of the land is is open countryside E two land. It presupposes that that is right that those boundaries have been rightly drawn essentially for all time. Or or certainly in the long term. And erm I think that that is a very dangerous situation to get ourselves in even in a county where the emphasis is on to protecting er er on environmental protection. I still feel it is a dangerous proposition to be in and we could end up in a situation where development comes to a full stop. Mr Heselton and then Mr Collier. Thank you sir. Terry Heselton Sel Selby District. Erm I think my answer to the to the questions being thrown out by by the Senior Inspector is is that surely Government policy is to protect the countryside for its own sake, and and why is it therefore wrong for a county with erm areas of acknowledged environmental importance to try and give expression to that in in its structure plan. Erm the the point I really wanted to make erm is response to to a comment from Mr Donson and and also Profe Professor Lock erm it it goes back to erm to my constraints map of the county, the one I submitted er as an appendix to my erm submissionary inspector of the H one issue, erm which rather unfortunately throughout the course of the examination has been er exploited by a number of other parties constr for their own purpose. But it it now gives me the opportunity to use it er for the purpose in which Have you charged a fee for that? Well yeah it has crossed my mind. But basically turning to the Selby situation erm I mean here here we have a district that doesn't have any areas of acknowledged national or landscape im importance at all but as as I mentioned previously that's not to say that there aren't valuable areas of countryside within the district and areas which to use use the words of of P P G advice are valued by the people that live and and work in the district and and also by visitors. Erm at various times throughout the course of the enquiry Selby seems to be gathering a bit of a growing reputation that that the district have let it rip or or the or the collecting point for the remainder of the county. And and I think that's why this particular policy is very important to the Selby district because it allows us to address the balance between meeting what I would call the justifiable development but also the equally important environmental consideration. Thank you. Mr Collier. David Collier National Farmers' Union. It seems to to me that erm Policy E two does not add erm much if anything to to Government policy which after all is fairly comprehensive in its dealings with development in the countryside. Not only in P P G seven but as has been pointed out in other erm guidance notes such as four erm and three. Perhaps the er chief of a Policy E two in an acceptable form is that it would give a clear signal to the district that it would not be appropriate to have a policy on rural diversification or in in development in the countryside more generally, which is stricter than Government guidance. And and so we certainly don't have strong views either way as to the need for the policy in principle but I can certainly see an advantage in having a policy in the right terms. It seems to me that E two as it is currently drafted is a great deal less comprehensive than P P G seven and a great deal more restrictive, possibly as a consequence of being less comprehensive. And I I thought I'd put to Mr Donson and Mr Loc Professor Lock to the district councils. Mr Earle. Thank you Chairman. Erm first of all if I may just er point out that the example I put with my paper that I have submitted today, and I thank you for the er indulgence in allowing me to produce it so late, was simply that there was one particular appeal of decision where an inspector remarked particularly on the lack of a local or a development plan policy relating to generally relating to the countryside. In other words it wasn't the one and only example where we felt this gap but it's simple one where remarked on it. If I may just refer you sir to er my appendix which it actually the last page of your papers erm er if you see on it is actually page numbered thirty one and it's paragraph thirteen thirty six at the very back of the papers. Erm and the inspector simply pointed there that the county er the council has quoted no approved policies to protect the countryside for its own sake. Well the plain fact of the matter was Chairman there were there were none to quote to him and erm we see the the structure plan Policy E two er as fulfilling a bridging role between national policy and the more specific guidance which would necessarily be contained in local plans. The county at first stage did try of course to produce some exceptions and and I think all the districts found ones they liked and ones they didn't like and I think quite reasonably the county said well er possibly the role of E two is simply to produce this broad policy goal and er this will er and as Richmondshire see it it'll be er for us to refine it as we see fit at district level. And I have pointed out in my papers that you must bear in mind perhaps that er quite a number of Rich er quite a number of the districts in North Yorkshire are of county scale in their sheer size and that therefore it is not inappropriate that at that level that the policies would be refined. Mr Sedgewick. Sedgewick Michael Courcier and Partners. We've approached this from a a slightly different angle and recognized that local planning experience within the county now and in the forthcoming district plans shows that there are going to be policies that restrict development in the open country. Therefore my clients would much rather deal with this at a strategic level than in individual district plans. But to do that we need to be sure that the policy is appropriate, does reflect national policy. As it stands the districts seem to be wanting their cake and eat it in that they would like er a policy restricting development in the open countryside but they don't want it to come with baggage that is specific which says what the exceptions should be. I don't think that that is the right way forward. If we are going to have Policy E two then it does need to be very clear as to the direction that the the strategic direction that the districts need to take with regard open land and that is the the subject of the the other questions that you've put before us. Thank you. Can I Sorry. come back to Mr Searle Mr Earle. Earle I beg your pardon, and I hesitate to raise any appeal decision. However, if I can use this example. It doesn't seem to me from what I read of page thirty one of that inspector's report that he was in any different position by the absence of the Policy E two than he would be if he'd got it. Yes I it's a it's I've contemplated because at the end of the day any appeal decision was er one in favour of the council's position. Erm and I have to er pick up the point made opposite that the protection has been pretty good over the last few years without the policy. That it is simply being this is why we feel that the role of the structure policies is to provide that er into local plan policies. But there is nothing anywhere in the P P G twelve in particular which says that before a district can have policy in their local plan there must be a lead policy in the structure plan. Is there? No. And within a couple of years districts will have district wide local plan coverage we hope. The er the county council came forward with these policies as a result of comments that er districts made a number of years ago and perhaps er over a passage of time erm makes at least validity your point but I I remain of the the view that there is in the there is nothing in the county structure plan that sets out the basic objective of protecting the countryside and still feel that's a valid objective within the structure plan erm within the structure plan er context. I notice Mr Allenby is nodding his head. Yes Chairman. David Allenby Harrogate Borough Council. Erm really just to reinforce that point. Erm Mr Donson was quite right that in the absence of erm structure plan policies er the districts have moved forward and prepared their own countryside protection policies er and these have been effective to a a greater or lesser degree. However I think in my view anyway this doesn't negate the point that the protection of the countryside is a strategic issue and should properly be covered in the structure plan. Erm there is then a case for that policy to be covered in the structure plan and of course in local plans and at the local plan stage there is an opportunity for councils to er interpret the structure plan policy to add er exceptions if they so wish and for those to be tested at a local plan enquiry. Mr Donson. Roy Donson House Builders' Federation. We've erm we've had quotes from from from Government policies from P P G seven's been mentioned twice quoting paragraph two point one protection er that the countryside should be safeguarded for its own sake and I know that there is a tendency to quote Government policy to back your own case. But erm it it it would seem to me that erm that the the basis of Government policy in writing to the countryside is para one ten of P P G seven, that talks about a balance essentially. And I also rely on my evidence of of quoting another custodian of Government policy namely the Prime Minister and its current Prime Minister erm who makes the point that proposals for development must not be turned down simply because it is the safest course. But also more importantly within that says that these, The siting of development is essentially something to be decided locally. And I think that that is very important. And that seems to me to go against having a strategic policy but what we're talking about is the interface at a local level between development and and protecting the countryside and that's quite rightly where the decisions should be made. It is not appropriate that we have a blanket policy at the strategic level and the need for this particular policy it would seem to me is unproven. Can I, Mr Donson and I are in danger of getting into a game of seeing who can next pick the most relevant bit out of a P P G. Yes. Nevertheless I shall continue. P P G twelve? P P G twelve paragraph five fifty three, reactions from the county and district councils please as to how Policy E two satisfies that advice and what follows in that part of the P P G. Do you want do you want to come back Mr Williams do you want to pick up this point or something else? Well it it perhaps picks up this point While your colleagues are all perusing P P G twelve. It is was really erm the question of how many other P P Gs could be taken as read er if we decide that P P G seven could just be left on its own and not included in the structure plan. Er it seems to me that erm there are probably quite a few policies in the structure plan that could be omitted if we just took the all the P P Gs as read. Erm as far as I'm concerned Mr Donson's point that there are significant areas of the county which are covered by other policies, national parks, heritage coast, high quality agricultural land, Erm that may be true but there are significant areas which are not covered by those policies and it seems to me that if erm the county structure plan is going to provide a strategy then it should be relatively comprehensive. And for that reason alone I would say that erm Policy E two is necessary and should be included. Thank you. Mr Heselton. Thank you sir. Terry Heselton Selby District. Er quite fortuitously the question thrown out by the senior inspector anticipates the point that I wanted to make that that surely it's the structure plan that sets the strategic context and it and it's wholly appropriate for local plans to put local interpretation on that. Both in terms of er bringing forward more detailed criteria based policies but also determining specifically the areas to which the policy would apply. So, for example, by designation village envelopes you would give clear guidance as to what constituted countryside and what didn't. And equally by bringing forward other proposals and allocations in the plan you would make it clear where proposals wouldn't work. And then that could even em em embrace a new settlement for example. Mr Williamson. Thank you Chairman. Ken Williamson North Yorkshire County Council. Chairman having read again the relevant paragraphs P P G twelve to which er the senior inspector referred, I I think it's entirely consistent with that that the county should seek to erm include a policy now in the plan which in effect seeks to to clarify the basic intentions of the structure plan in in regard to the attitude to development in in open countryside. I think obviously I would agree with a lot of what what the districts have said there about the strategic importance of having such a policy. Chairman I think going to the points that Mr Donson made, there have been major changes. I think it's very true to say major changes since nineteen eighty when our plan was approved. Erm we have er increasing pressures it seems to me for er a lot of er non-agricultural developments in in the countryside. Wind farms, M S As , golf courses, associated hotels etcetera, development major recreation policies, and I think it the plan needs to have a a generic policy which addresses the issue of what is likely to be appropriate and acceptable in the countryside as a framework for the development of more detailed policies in in local plans. Mr Donson. Roy Donson House Builders' Federation. We've just had a golf course defined as a strategic issue and I think that in a way goes goes goes to the heart of what this is what this is all about. That it is it it doesn't seem to me that we there is a strategic case for this for this policy. That the strategy's working perfectly well. Er and and and because they are struggling to bring forward examples it seems to me that that rather proves the point. No one on this side has suggested that we don't have policies in the structure plan because we've got P P G guidance. That's that's that's not that's not part of part of our er our proposal. The proposal really is what er do you have a policy which is not in line with P P G guidance. And it seems to me that this Policy E two is not in line with with strategic guidance and if you're not if you're having that are there some special circumstances that mean that you have to explain particularly what it is that you you have to do. And that seems to me equally not proven. Er and and on all counts the necessity for bringing forward this policy, given the existing controls that exists, given the controls that will exist in the normal operation of the development plan system, development plan lead system should I say, erm mean that that this policy is totally unnecessary. Mr Broughton. Frank Broughton Ministry of Agriculture. In principle is er not opposed to this policy er as we've made clear in our erm responses to the county provided that the wording is in our view right. We still regard the present form of the policy and the explanatory wording as being rather too restrictive. As far as the wording of the actual policy itself is concerned I think we would er certainly prefer er wording on the lines of strict control, in other words quoting er P P G rather than the not normally permitted approach. Er and the accompanying memorandum although it has er gone through several alterations which have improved it in our view is is still over negative we would see. As a whole it doesn't reflect the the encouragement to diversification in P P G seven or the er we think the recent erm quite vigorous policy statements by the Secretary of State about the importance of erm employment creation in rural areas. As far as the exceptions to the policy is concerned, we, again I I wouldn't say we had a strong feeling on this, but on balance I think it that if it is considered that they are needed they would probably be better dealt with in a separate policy. One final point I would make is is that there has been a a little bit of an impression given I think in some comments this morning that we have a a virtual free for all as regards the availability of agricultural land and er the marked change that it has been said to occur since nineteen eighty. And I would just erm remind everyone that er the clear guidance is still there in P P G seven about the considerably weight attached to protection of better quality agricultural land er and that the structure plan policy A three still remains in force, a very clear and strong policy. It's true that the protection has perhaps focused more on the higher quality land but that it is still there under clear policy guidance. Thank you. Is it is it Mr Feist? Is that how you pronounce it? Thank you. Could you announce announce your Yes. Mike Michael Feist . . Sorry? Michael Feist Countryside Commission York and Humberside Regional Office. I think one of the main reasons why we would support the inclusion of a Policy erm E two in the structure plan is because North Yorkshire is adamantly a very rural area and therefore whatever happened in that rural area must be a strategic issue. And therefore in our view it is appropriate that there should be a structure plan policy that gives broad guidance on how development proposed is affected in that rural areas could apply. Now there are various ways in which a policy could be expressed but the policy that's come up erm from North Yorkshire and the fact that it is deported by the district who would be defining that policy and interpreting it in view of their local circumstances in due course, I think er makes it a powerful factor in arguing why it should be included in the structure plan as to whether such a policy may or may not be necessary. And certainly I can think of very few other structure plans that do not attempt in some way to er give some form of er recognition to the er Government policy as set out in P P G seven. So I think it is a matter of erm importance for the structure plan its inclusion er and I think to put the an answer to one of the questions that was put earlier, if it is not to be left to the district to decide on where development is or is not appropriate in open countryside as defined in the structure plan policy, who it is intended could be making the decision on where development would be appropriate. Thank you. Mr Saunders. Les Saunders Department of the Environment. We have made no formal objection to the to to Policy E two in indicating in in many respects the department is er regional office is content for the issues to be erm as to the need for the strategic policy to be debated E I P. However if the the panel was to find in favour of Policy E two er the regional office have reservations regarding the the the tone and tenor of of the wording in the policies. You've had various references to to P P G seven, er I'm sure if we went through all the various proofs of evidence you could reconstruct the entire of P P G seven. Er the difficulties with P P G seven and the countryside are exemplified in paragraph one ten which Mr Donson refers to as his guiding principle, in one single paragraph it manages to include three separate uses of the word countryside, wider countryside, the countryside and open countryside, indicating perhaps some of the difficulties in in erm identifying exactly what area it is that would be covered by a Policy E two. The regional office's particular concerns are that the wording of the policy appears unduly restrictive because within policy P P G within P P G seven itself, no only as is the reference to protecting the countryside, there is also considerable reference to rural diversification and promoting the rural economy where as as erm the county council have said that that P P G refers to most of that development taking place er within are anticipated to take place within the rural villages and and small towns in the countryside. However, the policy itself or the wording of the of of the policy refers to exceptionally in referring to development needing to be in the countryside. It's difficult er it's the regional office's view that that is open to er an over restrictive interpretation. It's clearly a matter of balance between the various elements erm in considering erm proposals for or development in the countryside. Erm and the principle of para one of P P G one para five of P P G one applies that that erm there's no good reason for turning for for refusing applications for development in the countryside. The fact that it's in the countryside shouldn't be a reason in itself for for refusing permission. Therefore, if if the panel were minded to accept the need for Policy E two we'd have we we consider that there needs to be changes to the wording er in in order erm to make it less restrictive. Thank you for that. Mr Williamson, can I ask for your confirmation that the reason that the Secretary of State deleted Policy E two in the nineteen eighty structure plan was one of the many reasons under the heading, General, there is no specific reference in the notice of approval to the deletion of this policy and therefore I am assuming it fell for one of the reasons given in paragraphs five point two to five point four five. Is that correct please? It's not listed there. But it's nowhere listed in any of the other proposed modifications the Secretary of State or any of the other modifications the Secretary of State made. Chairman, Ken Williamson er North Yorkshire County Council. Er I thought I had my copy of the certainly the panel's report of nineteen eighty available, it it seems to have disappeared somewhere. My understanding of what what the panel said and what the what the Secretary of State agreed was that neither the panel nor the Secretary of State disagreed with the erm the general sense of the policy but felt that that sense was er embodied and and was able to to be applied through the erm provisions of other policies in the plan at that time. Er E one was mentioned I believe and er but the main emphasis was on the range of agricultural policies A one I think to A four. So it seemed to us that the the general sense and purpose of the policy was was not in a sense disputed but that er in order to avoid a leng what was considered at the time to be perhaps unnecessary detail and going into erm too much detail that er we felt that the agricultural land policies could be left to to perform the sort of main objective that we were seeking through, I think it was E three at the time, was was the proposed policy. There is nothing in the notice of approval which says that. No I think erm para five three I think was probably one of the er unless the panel found that some of policies were unduly restricted and detailed or er which were not a struc structural significance erm yeah probably the first rather than the second reference. What unduly restricted? And detailed. And detailed. I think because a the sense Do you have at the time the erm, as I go back to what I said before about the the the reliance which was then place on on the agricultural policies Yes. it seems to me to perform the functions which we were er seeking through through the proposed Policy three. to me that it would be perverse of us to fall into the trap if we were to do so of endorsing Policy E two and not know that what we were endorsing was in fact what the Secretary of State specifically rejected on the grounds perhaps that it was unduly restricted or detailed or inappropriate for some of those other reasons that are set out in the earlier part of that notice of approval. Chairman the erm proposals in the what was the submitted plan in reference seventy nine read er Policy three, Subject to the provisions of Policies I four I eight and I nine there will be a general presumption against development in open countryside except for the purposes of agricultural policy and recreation and other uses appropriate to a countryside location. It does read a bit like a greenbelt policy. That does in fact But erm Policy E two was also deleted at the same time. Yes erm Policy E two was at that time was er relating to programme of tree planting er . I can guess . That was obviously er. Could we trouble you to submit those two policies as they were submitted. E two and E three yes certainly. Thank you. I think that might be a useful point to break for coffee. While and that will give you a chance. Can we resume at twenty past eleven please? Mr Collier? Can you just hold fire gentlemen a moment? It it seems to me we've spent about an hour and ten minutes or so almost shadow boxing over this particular policy erm and we we keep running into well running both matters together and it seems right and proper that we should do that. There is obviously a divergence of view as to whether there's a need for this policy. Erm there's also a view been expressed that well if you're going to have it it may need some more guidance than is presently written into it. I think that's Mr Sedgewick's view if you have it. Erm the other point of course, this is raised in matter B, as it's written is it considered to be restrictive too restrictive er and third and secondly, is it giving you er guidance which properly reflects national guidance. And Mr Donson er has said that he doesn't think it, it in fact exceeds that. So can sort of we point the discussion in in that direction but before we do Miss Whittaker has a corollary to push with that point. Thank you Chairman. I think in fact what I would like in particular from the local planning authorities around the table is given Mr Donson's view that E two as drafted is more restrictive than national guidance P P G seven or any other P P G, what is it in North Yorkshire that justifies that departure from national guidance. This in my view is a critical determinate of leaving aside the question of fifty of fif the application of section fifty four A that determines whether the policy is required. Mr Earle. Thank you Chairman. We've now moved on in part of question your question five B and erm in my response to that I'm suggesting, and I hope it's not just semantics, picking up the point made just before we broke for coffee, is that there's all sorts of things called the countryside, and this policy is is directed at the open countryside. Now I've heard about you know the question of definition of where the edge of the open countryside is and that's a valid point but if we if we have in mind the open countryside, it seems to me that P P G seven does clearly differentiate between the countryside, the countryside, rural areas and the open countryside where it refers to development being strictly controlled. Now this phrase strictly controlled erm I I I wanted to ask it myself because I you know trying to push it through to what it actually means I think the county council if you like has taken it at what may be face value and said well strictly controlled must mean something. It must mean that there is a er an approach that says that development in the open countryside isn't normally permissible erm unless unless unless. But at least it I don't see that that that E two is inconsistent with the phrase development in the open countryside being strictly controlled. Because then the P P G seven then goes on to make the implicit point about other things that in the countryside such as the small villages and towns and other development opportunities, do occur which provide the rural diversification and employment development that is that is required by the P P G. Mr Williamson . Oh I've lost my er Ah, it's alright. Your billy do then. Thank you Chairman. Ken Williamson North Yorkshire County Council. Er Chairman I I really have to say I don't I don't really agree with the assertion that the policy is is essentially more restrictive than than er P P G seven will indicate and I would endorse what er Patrick Earle has said in in that regard. Erm the policy that we were putting forward is is essentially not the one that er was was debated in nineteen eight. It seem to me erm that was er much more intended to be much more restrictive I think than than I would suggest our policy E two is now. Erm it it in a sense er smack of sort of greenbelt policy I think . I don't think our er proposed policy two does that. In considering or interpreting what strict control means for a start erm do we actually mean, does P P G seven actually mean strictly control? If so what what does that imply? It's not sort of er moderate control or a little bit of control it is strict control. Er and we are talking about open countryside outside erm rural settlements and if you look at the wider countryside and that includes in my judgement er the pattern of settlement which is where most people actually do live in in the countryside. They're they're not living out in the in the sticks the vast majority of people, they actually live in in settlements. The policy er doesn't prevent or doesn't seem to prevent er proper development which is associated with settlements in rural areas. And there are other policies in the structure plan erm you know we shouldn't be looking at this policy just in isolation. We have a whole host of policies, some of which give guidance on erm controls in the open countryside but other ones actually sort of seek a more positive attitude to the problems and the needs of rural diversification. Erm I've mentioned one or two some of the industrial land policies as they er as they still stand policy in in structure plan policy I eight I think and particular policy I six doesn't preclude reasonable and necessary development taking place in rural areas. If one looks through P P G seven erm one sees lots of references to villages and settlements and erm more activity taking place, more people moving into those settlements. When we look at the open countryside it doesn't really to my mind say a great deal about er what is what should be considered acceptable. Erm para one ten I mean it talks about the countryside being able to accommodate many forms of development without detriment. It then goes on to say of course new development in relation should be sensi sensitively related to existing settlement patterns. And there are other references throughout to, what I reply is a clear direction that most developments should be in erm in or closely related to settlements and, of course, that will be a matter addressed through through local plans. The structure plans giving broad guidance Is it your intention that Policy E two should be interpreted as saying anything different from what is in section two of P P G seven which covers Chairman I think we farm diversification, housing, horses, agricultural development. I think probably the implications and a lot of people have er picked up on this as the policy has developed, is that er well they're they're concerned that the policy is in fact too flexible now because of how it is being interpreted by other people. Certainly this policy is not intended in any way to erm prevent what P P G seven actually seeks er to promote in in the open countryside, ie outside the areas which we would expect most development to take place in. Certainly the the re-use of er adaptation of existing buildings and would have thought that wouldn't be er er something which the county council would want to prevent. And I don't think the policy er as we proposed it er actually does prevent that. As far as the exceptions Mr Donson is rightly concerned about erm affordable housing. The county council is equally interested and concerned about that. What we have in terms of the advice for the open countryside outside the areas that would normally be looked at and allocated for development is the rural exceptions policy that forms part of P P G three. Erm this policy in my to my mind doesn't actually er exclude those exceptions being made. That would be a in the context of our policy a perfectly acceptable addition to the countryside if you like. Provided that I mean we're not talking about rural exceptions being erm appropriate everywhere and anywhere. Even with the exceptions policy there's still consideration of the the impact of that development and whether it would be acceptable or not and would be treated in in those terms I'm sure by the districts. And I'm sure the districts a lot has been said about er it being the districts' view that well you know we've got this policy so we will we will exercise a high level of restraining to protect the countryside against all comers etcetera etcetera. I don't really think that's a fair reflection of what er what what the district councils as I understand it er would intend to do. Do I take it your answer to my question is no? Yes. Thank you. Mr Jewitt and the Professor Lock. Er Michael Jewitt Hambleton District Council. Er there are three points erm I'd like to make. Erm the first point erm er Mr Donson's Mr Donson's comments. Erm Mr Donson seemed to accept that it was er right for local planning authorities through their district wide open plans to give effect to policies in P P G seven for protecting the countryside for its own sake and he er mentioned landscape policies and then development minutes amongst other things. In the context of those comments my question really, Isn't it right er for local authorities to expect that there is some strategic basis for their policies in the structure plan? Erm and I I can't help wondering, this is perhaps something that Mr Donson may well want to come back to, erm what Mr Donson's position would be at subsequent local plan inquiries where local plans were to contain such policies and there was wasn't to be a strategic basis er for those policies. And I would, and this is my second point, I would point out to erm erm point out to the panel erm that the structure plan at present erm only erm mentions in landscape terms in countryside terms those at statutory designated areas. The rest of the countryside is in effect erm a white area which tends which to me erm in a county context tends to convey the impression that er countryside issues do not matter across the rest of the countryside and that's clearly not the intention of Government advice and it's clearly not the intention behind the statutory of the structure plan which has a strong environmental basis. I think it's right and proper that there is a strategic policy which erm emphasizes protection for the countryside across the whole of the area. The third point er relates to erm is the policy stricter than Government guidance? Erm my view is that it's erm it's very flexible. Erm the margin of flexibility in the policy has yet to be determined because it will be local plans which give effect to erm erm what is erm what development needs to the statement of what development needs to be in the countryside. And that's something that can be debated through local plan inquiries. But there is the mar there is considerable potential for flexibility in the policy and that would be determined my local planning authorities in the light of P P G seven but also in the light of er local circumstances and conditions which is quite right and proper. Professor Lock. In the spirit of erm words after coffee sir, er no more shadow boxing some straight shots here. Erm in response to er Miss Whittaker's question we did not hear of anything special in this county that justifies the policy in excess of that exceeds should I say erm national guidance. There was no answer given to that question by anybody. Secondly we have not heard of anything that has changed in this county since nineteen eighty sufficient to warrant or justify in this alteration the addition of a policy the effect of which, one one with a similar effect having been thrown out at that time. And thirdly, there is a Government obstruction they don't like policies which are presumptions against development. Policy E two as proposed is a very common form of phrasing used by planning authorities to circumvent the Government objection to presumption against policies. The policy as proposed says, Development in the open countryside will not normally be permitted. If that is not in practice a policy which is presuming against development in the open countryside I don't know what is. Fourth, we've heard from Mr Williamson his interpretation of what strictly controlled means. The phrase from P P G seven. And what we can see is that Mr Williamson's interpretation of strictly controlled means not normally be permitted. And that is not strict control that is not normally be permitted. Strictly controlled should mean consented after the most careful deliberation and under the most carefully contrived er conditions. North Yorkshire's interpretation I repeat is not strictly controlled means not normally be permitted. And none of this would matter Chairman I don't think er whether E two whether E two was in or out of the structure plan only matters in so far as it bears a part of the making of local plans and the making of planning applications in the county. On the first point about the making of local plans, we're hearing that this policy has the great support, in fact was requested by all the districts in the county. I don't think they've seen it's obverse side. Having E two in place is alright for the local planning authority that wants a local plan that has no development in the countryside in it. You would be drawing sucker from E two in your anti-development policies in your local plan. So that works doesn't it? But supposing a local authority in its local plan wanted to allocate land for development in what is currently open countryside. And as I was saying to Terry Heselton over coffee it could be Selby looking for its two hundred and fifty hectares. You're never going to find those in existing towns and villages. Now supposing a local authority that wants to go into a open countryside in its local plan, E two would stand in the way of that. Such allocation would be contrary to county structure plan Policy E two. Now what we could say is well there would be trust. We have to trust the districts can trust the county the county can trust the districts and that in practice they would make this work at local plan level. For the development industry this that sort of concept of trust isn't safe enough. Section fifty four A makes your local plan structure plans extremely important governors on what happens on the ground and it's for that underlying reason that we find E two unjustified and reasonably repressive and an unreasonable extension of constraint by the county on the freedom of districts in their local plans to choose the geography of their of land allocations. Mr Earle and then Mr Donson. Thank you Chairman. Patrick Earle Richmondshire District Council. Erm I wonder if can just er continue slightly the debate about the nineteen eighty erm decision to exclude the then Policy E three. Erm I I'm speaking from recollection sir at having looked into this in the context of planning appeal which is now a little while ago, but it did strike me at the time that er there was a definite feeling that the agricultural issue was very strong protection of ag agricultural land throughout was a strong issue up to er the mid nineteen eighties and certainly was up to the time in late seventy nine early nineteen eighty and er therefore there was a feeling that Policy E three simply er was supplementary to those other policies. Also at the time I don't think that in terms of national recognition that the idea of protecting the countryside for its own sake was terribly well developed. Erm to an extent it it was er on the back of protec protection of agricultural land. Now of course during the nineteen eighties the protection of agricultural land for its own sake er lost weight as an issue and the relevant structure plan policies er lost effective weight and were seen to do so but Government policy was quite explicit in the nineteen eighty seven circular, I think it was num number sixteen, was that although agricultural land protection as a farming resource was diminished as an issue, the protection of the countryside for its own sake was not. And, therefore, the sit situation where you find yourself today erm is not the same as it was I think in nineteen eighty. Erm the second point I'd like to make is er we danced round this phrase presumption this morning, I've tried to avoid using it because its its it gets all sorts of er connotations going. I read in the Planning Press that the Newbury District Council managed to browbeat the the Department of Environment into accepting the phrase in their in a local plan, so perhaps presumptions are er the word presumption may or may not be acceptable, but then to extend it into saying well you can't even say, not normally be acceptable, and, not normally be er agreeable, for any sort of policy er means that strategic policies or general policy approaches are simply ruled out ri right across the board. And I'm sure that's not really er acceptable. And finally, if I may, the question you raised earlier and I didn't respond to it as erm I might of done, er the question about whether North Yorkshire is particularly unique. Well plainly erm whatever the er Yorkshire people may think and I was born in Nottinghamshire, erm that it is you know you cannot say it is absolutely unique. But I would like to refer you to the erm notice of approval of the nineteen eighty structure plan where I think erm there there is a phrase to the effect that a policy of broad restraint of development is erm erm er accepted by the was accepted by the then Secretary of State on the basis of the high environmental quality of the county. And that doesn't just refer to the A N Bs and the national parks and the rest of it. Erm important though they are they do not cover the the great majority of the county. The countryside in the county is is undesignated area erm outside the area er the the main designation. But that that phrase in the structure plan approved in nineteen eighty I think does give some weight to to what we're trying to address this morning. Roy Donson House Builders' Federation. I think mo a lot of the points I wanted to make were were covered by Professor Lock but I would just draw the panel's attention to erm the policy that was rejected. And if you take into account that the words, A general presumption against, were common phraseology in policies in the nineteen eighties and we now use the er play against presumption we now have to use the phrase, Will not normally be permitted. I would suggest to you that given that and also the wording in the justification under the old Policy E three, that in fact you could hardly get a tissue paper between this policy that is now before you and the previous policy. They are in fact almost one and the same and they use er one and the same justification. And so it seems to me that what has got to be proven, and I come back to the point, is that something has changed and we haven't heard anything that has changed er in in that time. In fact the justification er for the present policy actually talks about erm the erm, This policy has generally been successfully implemented across the county. That is concentrating development in partic particular places. So it seems to me that there is nothing new there is no further justification and er on those grounds alone there is no reason to have this policy. Mr Heselton and Mr Allenby. Thank you sir. Terry Heselton Sel Selby District. Erm it seems it seems to me that wha what's crucial here is the er the spirit behind the policy or or rather the the way in which it's going to be interpreted. And I'd I'd like to turn to the point that erm Professor Lock raised in in terms of the potential clash of interest if if you like between the restraint of of the policy and the er the development proposals as regards Sel Selby district. But nothing has has really changed it's surely implicit that green field sites will have to be released to meet the justifiable needs for development erm that there are ways clearly to minimize the impact by by first redeveloping the existing sites by by releasing sites in less sensitive locations, or developing sites that have minimal impact on on existing settle settlements or patterns of development un unless in exceptional circumstances there is for example the need for a new settlement. But I don't I don't think that the situation's any any different with the proposed policy as regards existing situations. But clearly it it's quite an important point so er so of course I'd be interested to to hear the county council's view on on the point raised. Erm one possible way round the I suppose would be for the county council to amend the explan explanatory memorandum er as a matter of urgency and to bring forward in it er or or at least to acknowledge some of the the matters that have been raised. Such as, for example , erm the affordable housing issue and others. Because clearly in in debating this policy I think a number of the districts have also raised diff different points of interest in terms of what should be recognized as exceptional development and we we went down that that road a couple of years ago and unfortunately the districts came to the conclusion that it wasn't appropriate to try and list the exceptional circumstances. I mean in some respects that's almost an imposs an impossible task it's simple impracticable. As soon as you publish a list for the exceptional circumstances it it will be overtaken by er evolving new forms of development for example. So I don't I don't think anything anything's really changed. There there may well be a way round the problem by amending the explanatory mem memorandum. I I think Selby District Selby District's attitude is is that we're we're perfectly happy. We we think we see eye to eye with the county council on this er provided it is clearly in the the acceptable needs of the district will be met by taking areas of countryside. Erm but I would, as I say, I would like to hear from the county on. Yes Chairman. David Allenby Harrogate Borough Council. It's a similar point to the one that Terry Heselton has has just made. I think my impression was that er Professor Lock was suggesting that because of Policy E two local planning authorities would have some difficulty in in making allocations to meet the structure plan requirement. Now I don't think that's the case. Erm it's obviously right and proper that a local planning authority if it's releasing green field sites has to justify why those sites should be released. And that's er that's a process that we've just been through with the Harrogate and Knaresborough local plan. We have released sites er in the countryside and we expect the countryside protection policy to apply outside the urban areas and outside of the sites that we've allocated for development. So I I don't think that er would would cause a problem. I'd like to pick up on a point that er that Roy Donson made also right at the outset of of the discussion and that was that there's no evidence that local authorities have have faced pressure for development in the countryside. And that simply isn't the case. You know we've had intense pressure for development in the countryside, certainly in Harrogate district. Erm quite recently, for example, we've had applications for motorway service areas, that's just one example. And that sort of application has to be considered in the context of countryside protection policies. The need for development has to be established and so erm I refute the fact totally that there hasn't been pressure for development in the countryside, that's certainly not the case. Er finally I'd like to reinforce what I said this morning about the strategic importance of a countryside protection policy. It's a matter of fact that the strategy of the county council is to locate development as far as possible in and around the main settlements of the county. The corollary of that is that there shouldn't be development by and large in the countryside. And it's right therefore that a policy should express that explicitly within the structure plan. Mr Sedgewick and then Mr Rudd. Sedgewick Michael Courcier and Partners. Er my answer to Miss Whittaker's originating question, there has been no argument at all that the area where this policy will operate, which is the open countryside outside of the A O N Bs and national parks, has got any special character that requires a more restrictive approach than national policy. Indeed Mr Mr Williamson has argued that the policy is not more restrictive than national policy, it is clearly not in the county council's mind that a more restrictive approach is needed. Moving moving on from that point, it does seems to me that the policy clearly is more restrictive than P P G seven and arguably in some respects it's more restrictive than greenbelt. At least in the greenbelt development that is appropriate to rural areas would be permitted. In the proposed E two the only development that would be permitted is that which needs to be in the open countryside and that's a much more rigorous test. Within the greenbelt policy there are there is a list of exceptions, a private strategic level. I think it is appropriate if you are to have an E two policy it is appropriate to apply restrictions to to identify the exceptions in that. I I if it can be done in the greenbelt policy it must be done in E two and there can be no argument that it is not too detailed a matter in greenbelt policy but too detailed a matter in E two. Development in the open countryside would not normally be permitted is the way that the the draft policy's guidance. P P G seven para one ten says that new building in the open countryside would be strictly controlled. Development is far more than new building. Mr Williamson has recognized that the adaptation of existing buildings would be allowed. The policy does not say that, the policy put a strict limitation on all forms of development. As I said earlier I do not think that this is an area where the district councils should be given a completely free rein to interpret the matter within their own local plans. There has to be a strategic theme particularly in counties such as North Yorkshire which is predominantly rural, it is a major area of planning control, fully merits strategic control and that strategic control must be applied or if it if it is to be applied in the structure plan if you do agree that there should be a Policy E two, then the control of development must be applied consistently over the districts. I think within the terms of er P P G seven the scope for discretion is limited. The P P G seven has a very clear theme about supporting rural diversification, it is positively worded P P G. I think the restrictive nature of the existing policy and the district's support for that is something that cannot run forward in the structure plan and be consistent with national policy. Thank you. Thank you very much. Can I pick up on a point that you've just made Mr Sedgewick and also points made by those on your right about exceptions and presumptions. The only place in which a presumption now appears in national guidance is in P P G two and it'll be it is no secret that erm P P G two will be the subject of a revision. It seems to me however that the terms presumption and exception as national guidance stands at the moment go together in the context of greenbelt. And if we are not looking for something which is as restrictive as greenbelt we ought neither to be expressing in whatever terms a presumption or describing something which is permissible as an exception. Would the objections of those on my left this end of the table, if the panel were minded to have an E two policy, be overcome by, Development will only be permitted provided that, and they set a criteria? That's how you finish the sentence Erm yeah I certainly would encourage you down that path Miss Whittaker that if it helps, I don't know whether you've got all the documents, but in our our submissions to the county we suggested that if E two has to survive erm and to add the words, sorry, exactly as you started the sentence but finishing that the exceptions were areas of the sites allocated for development in local plans, it would seem to me to make it absolutely clear what the freedom of local interpretation was in the statutory plan process whilst giving the county the the that it wanted on all the other areas of the county. So erm in response immediate response to your question would be, yes and erm to finish the sentence by referring to areas allocated for development in local plans being okay. Mr Broughton you wanted to come in earlier yep. Frank Broughton Ministry of Agriculture. I think it was Mr Heselton raised the er issue earlier of the wording in the explanatory memorandum and er would certainly regard that as being very important in the interpretation of this policy. Er being an agriculturalist rather than a planner I tend to get a bit confused by higher planning semantics of the difference between strict control and presumption against not normally. Er so what I did was something a bit simpler than that I just went through the memorandum and and ticked off what I regarded as restrictive statements as against positive ones. Er and I think I came up with six negatives and and one very feeble positive. And er if I just run through them in in the amended version as I understand it. Paragraph one talks about generally preventing inappropriate development. Paragraph two er development generally should be the exception rather than the rule er building in the open countryside should be strictly controlled. Paragraph three, discourage most forms of development. Paragraph four, a limited number of exceptions and paragraph seven, promotion of a restrictive approach to development. Now to counteract that the only positive one I could find was, while accepting that some development in the open countryside may prove to be necessary. Now it seemed to me that wasn't a very erm reasonable balance and er comparing that with the with the Secretary of State's recent pronouncements where he talks about local planning authorities needing to breathe fresh life into the countryside through their development plans and I want local planning authorities in rural areas to give the need to diversify the rural economy as much priority priority in their thinking as protecting the countryside and the two go hand in hand, and comparing those two er points I I would I would put to North Yorkshire the question, Do they think that the explanatory memorandum is is consistent with that er policy statement from the Secretary of State? Mr Collier. David Collier National Farms Union. I share the reservations of erm Mr Broughton about the the tone of the policy erm and as Professor Lock was concerned about the interpretation of strictly controlled, erm we are too. Erm I think if someone er told me I need to control my car whilst driving I would have erm one hand on the steering wheel. If somebody told me to strictly control the car I would put both hands on the steering wheel but not necessarily both feet on the er brake pedal. Erm I certainly er would agree that the starting point would be erm a policy which talks of development being permitted in certain circumstances erm and that the county council wishes to support development which benefits the rural economy erm subject to satisfying certain criteria. And I think that to a large extent erm an alternative wording that that we've been working on would erm meet those concerns. Erm I'll be happy to distribute copies but perhaps I could run through that draft quickly now erm and go through what I would say are the advantages. The alternative we suggest is, Development in the open countryside outside the national parks, areas of outstanding natural beauty, areas that heritage coast and greenbelt, will be strictly controlled. Proposals intended to benefit the rural economy will normally be supported provided that they would not unacceptably detract from the character and appearance and general amenity of the surrounding area. And you will have noted that er much of the wording in that er er latter sentence is taken from the the latest draft of the county council's suggested policy. I would say that the five advantages of our alternative draft is that er it makes it clear that the policy applies to land outside the national parks and so forth but with less repetition than the proposal put forward by the county council. Erm it's secondly more positive in its tone than that erm presently before us. Thirdly that there is no requirement to demonstrate a need to locate development in open countryside erm and we've been reminded this morning that erm one of the erm flaws in the policy put forward back in nineteen seventy nine or eighty erm appears to be that it erm required, certainly in the explanatory memorandum, that the development be erm essential erm to er essentially have a countryside location. Erm the fourth advantage I would say is that it focuses on the balance between the need to promote rural enterprise and the need to protect the countryside. Erm and finally, erm in an effort to make it er acceptable, wherever possible it makes use of the wording already agreed between the county council and interested parties. This wording is as set out in your appendix two isn't it? No sir. Erm it's it's erm a further alternative erm in that the attempt has been made to to fall in more closely with the county council's wording erm and yet introduce a more positive tone. Thank you. We've got we've got a note of it anyway yes. Er but you'd better let the panel secretary have it. Certainly. Mr Clayton. Er David Clayton English Nature. Erm I'd just like to say we broadly support the E two policy. Erm it is outlined in my statement we do have concerns about the wording er of the first part and the second part of the policy, particularly of the emphasis on amenity and landscape. Now I know in the original draft nature conservation interest was mentioned and er I'd like to hear from North Yorkshire why that factor is taken out of the policy. Er we have suggested an alternative wording erm which is in my statement I won't go on to now. I do feel that the E two policy does reflect P P G seven particularly section one ten and two one where it does mention wild life interest or nature conservation interest. Just picking up on Professor Lock's point earlier on about changes in the nineteen eighties or since the nineteen eighties, erm as in my statement I have suggested that there has been a substantial loss of nature conservation interest and wild life habitats both in this county and throughout the country. And that really is the reason I think for one of the reasons for P P G seven being brought out. Erm that's for that reason I think there is a need to address these sort of er approaches in the the new structure plan policy and er I would dispute very much Professor Lock's statement on them being being no changes since the nineteen eighties. Erm we we have actually got data to prove that actually as well in our phase one surveys er so it's not just as a general statement. Thank you. Thank you. Mr Donson. Thank you. Roy Donson House Builders' Federation. Erm we were asked by Miss Whittaker to erm respond to her suggestion of an alternative wording. My general position would be that if this policy is to go ahead the more it's worded in the positive rather than the negative the better. And indeed I would remind the panel that we still have in P P G one that the basis of appli applications for development should be allowed having regard to development plan and all material considerations unless proposed development would cause demonstrable harm to interests of acknowledged importance. And it seems to me that in order that that ought to be reflected in any revised wording of the of the policy that the development should be permitted unless it would could demonstrable harm. Mr Earle. Thank you Chairman. Patrick Earle Richmondshire. Erm I'd like to refer to my page three or er section four in my conclusions because I think if I if I heard Professor Lock correctly I think he and I are at one in in a suggestion which is is put to you in in if you like without prejudice to the generality of what I have been saying in support of the council's policy. I I do suggest that if you feel that some easing is required that er you could specifically refer to exceptions that will be set out er in local plans. Now Professor Lock referred to allocations and I think that's probably and the front of his mind er having regard to his own comments, but I I would put it more widely as just erm exceptions which could be either individual allocations or indeed erm policies of of a local plan. Because in Richmondshire for example we erm find it helpful to encourage er barn conversion in circumstances which some of our colleague er councils er do not feel sympathetic. Er but that's er as I see it the role of the local plan in relation to policy such as E two. I would also actually suggest that again if you wanted to ease it a bit I'd pick up a point also made just now er in that P P G refers to building and the E two refers to development. Er development of course being a wider category of activity than building. And so I think you you may feel that there's a bit of room for manoeuvre by bringing out the reference to re-use of existing buildings. Erm I I think in fairness to the county council and and er you know referring to the restrictive nature of their E two memorandum is perhaps a little unfair. I I one's always got to er balance that against for example Policy I eight which refers to small scale industrial development appropriate normally permitted in rural settlements. Now that may not go quite as far as as as would would favour. But it certainly is giving that that degree of balance which er which I think we need to recognize. And finally er as I as I make the point in my in my written statement, there are going to be exceptions, exceptions are part of the the game. Erm and certainly when it comes to local needs housing that is in that is explicitly to be an exception and and erm I I see no particular problem with that. And either section fifty four A applies or it doesn't. I mean it if it applies then the local development plan has to be followed unless material considerations indicate otherwise and among the material considerations explicitly by Government policy is the existence of a local needs housing requirement. And so I see no particular problem about the E two in relation to local needs housing policy. But I mean the the panel is going to have to explore this apparent conflict which I don't think's been properly papered over between what is in paragraph five of P P G one and section fifty four A. Er it's a nice dilemma which we're we're faced the planning profession as a whole is faced with erm and and I think that either it's section fifty four A or it's paragraph five of P P, P P G one. I know that's not the received wisdom of the profession at the moment but that's the way I see it at the moment. Mr Williamson. Thank you Chairman. Ken Williamson North Yorkshire. Really just to come back I think there were one or two sort of questions which were posed by various people which er probably we need to to respond to. Erm if I could go back to to what Mr Broughton was saying. Erm I would just like to stress that er again that the structure plan needs to be read as a whole and that there are in fact erm several of the policies in the plan which are certainly encouraging of development, certain forms of development in the countryside. Erm I think that would apply to er some of the existing tourist policies erm certainly and some of the recreation policies. However, I think it it to re-stress again it remains the county council's view in the context of the advice in P P G seven that most most development erm which is going to serve to promote diversification in rural areas should in fact be directed to and located within and adjacent to existing settlements rural settlements which is where, as I said before most people actually do live and it maintains a close relationship between the jobs provided and the residence of people, and that that level of allocation appropriate level of allocation is in fact something for the local er planning authorities to decide through their development plans and to make adequate provision for it. As far as Mr Collier's point er alternative policies concerned, I think listening to it and only half having perhaps digested the full implication, I think really as a matter of principle we're not un unsympathetic to a lot of what what a lot of people are suggesting there. However, I think we do still have some certainly some reservations about erm the policy and how it perhaps fudges some of the loca locational provisions of existing policies. Er and I would highlight again erm Policy I eight which which Mr Earle referred to and also perhaps er Policy I three. On Mr Clayton's point er I think my answer quite simply is that the the the interest of nature conservation are in the county council's view adequately covered by what Policy E six says. Just one point on perhaps on what Mr Donson was saying about the need for polity statement. I it it still seems to me every time I read the policy that it's a lot more flexible than most people are giving it credit for frankly . It doesn't er really sort of er er in a sense prevent er or mitigate against a lot of a lot of developments in the countryside. Is that it? Provided they need to be there. Professor Lock. There there are three of us er, that is Mr Allenby Mr Heselton and me looking for an answer to a question which was about Yes. how, so you haven't missed it, E two and how it would be imposed or not imposed on er as a constraint on local plan making. Would it inhibit local authorities in their local plans Yes thank well yes er thank you very much as you say several pages back . Well the short answer is it to my mind it doesn't impose any restraint at all. I mean it's it's their responsibility to er prepare the local plan in the context of what the structure plan strategy as a whole is saying and I think it's it's necessary not to just look at this particular policy in total isolation and assume that that is going to give er what you fear to district councils the ability to to nothing. They they are obliged to take the structure plans strategy and proposals on board and to interpret them in the in the local plan in the round. But we heard yesterday Mr Williamson about a dispute and I can't remember which district council it was with, it may have been Harrogate, between the county and the district councils on one allocation in the local plan. Does this policy not in effect strengthen the county's arms in, arm in such disputes? Could I ask Mr Potter, Mr Potter's familiar particularly with this I think it was Richmondshire wasn't it? I can't remember. Yes. Yes it was. David Potter North Yorkshire County Council. Er yes I raised an example without referring to a specific site and the site is in Richmondshire where the county council has objected to a proposal in erm what is a a local plan in its very formative stages and the proposal conflicts with Policy I five in so far as I five directs development to the main towns and urban areas. And I believe quite properly directs development to those locations. Erm the proposal I'm referring to is in the view of the county council in the open countryside. In so far as this policy is concerned I think is all it does is give greater clarity to what is the strategy of the plan and what is perhaps implicit within those other policies. I don't think it adds any greater restrictions to the existing policies. I think when you look at the the policies collectively and the policies individually the strategy of protecting the open countryside is implicit within those policies. I think that all that this policy does is make that more explicit, it gives it greater clarity. Doesn't it give you two policies rather than one to batter Mr Earle with, or his colleague? In so far as yes two policies would be referred to, yes. But the one I think just adds to the other, it just makes it clearer. Thank you. Mr Heselton. Thank you Chairman. Terry Heselton Selby District. I I suppose in the in the light of what's been said I I am slightly uneasy erm particularly going back to the erm I five discussion that that we had yesterday and you you'll be aware that part of our objection to the erm the policy put forward by the county council re related to the specific wording of the of the policy and the the flexibility available to local authorities in in terms of allocating land erm that best serves the needs of potential developers and investors. And I think we did draw attention to the fact that er there may well in some instances be a conflict in terms of what Selby district wants and what current P P G advice suggests. But then when you refer back to the original restraint imposed by the erm existing policy. So yeah I'm sli slightly concerned in that respect. I thought you might be with that answer yes. Mr Earle. Thank you Chairman. Erm the the particular case of Richmondshire having been referred to I I felt I ought to point that er we're quite content with the concept of Policy E two as giving the strategic weight to the question of protecting the open countryside and the balance, the very difficult balance, decisions that we and other authorities are going to have to come to in preparing our local plan. We're quite content that we're going to have to er put before the local plan system the the countervailing issues and the weight that's given to the countryside through E two is appropriate in the circumstances. Thank you. Any comment. Ah Mr Feist. Thank you Chairman. Michael Feist Countryside Commission. A lot of the dis discussion has clearly been erm trying to resolve some of the ambiguities in P P G seven er and I think perhaps different perception to what sort of countryside in North Yorkshire we are trying to safeguard through through policies. Er on one side there seems to be a feeling that there should be no development and it would compromise the character of open countryside. And on the other there seems to be a view that, well, erm wherever necessary perhaps on a farm or elsewhere that development should be should be permitted. And the consequences of a latter approach could lead to accumulative change in the appearance and nature and character of the countryside so that you get something rather different than most people's perception of a countryside being there for its own sake. And I think that whereas erm we would not necessarily argue with a case for providing criteria at a strategic plan at a structure plan level erm to put some flesh on what is meant and maybe clarify some of the explanatory memorandum in a more positive way, simply should ensure that the policy does not dilute, sorry that whatever changes emerge, does not dilute the mode intention of the policy. And that the district should be given some form of a guide that enables them to be er to apply the particular circumstances to their own district. There may be some districts that have er areas of countryside which are outside the non- designated areas which they regard as particularly important as erm the gentleman from Selby has said, er and the we have suggested that er there might be a criteria in the policy that allows the quality of the countryside affected by development to be a consideration. In other words, erm that er special landscape areas countryside is not to change quite radically. If there is a decision at the structure plan level that the countryside should be enabled to change quite radically in North Yorkshire that would be a different matter. But nothing I've heard today Chairman suggests that is the case. Thank you. Mr Williamson is there anything you want to come back on or you feel you've had enough in terms of summing up on matters A and B? Yes I was proposing we close for lunch. Reconvene at two and then go straight into matter C which is the next section. Yes thank you er thank you Chairman. Erm I think probably yes the debate has been probably as extensive as it needs to be. Erm I'm not sure whether there's an abiding need to to actually bring it all back together again in in the context of a summary. I think the the county council's made its position fairly clear, hopefully particularly clear. I don't think er my only comment would be that having heard all the comments that have been made and listened to them and tried to dissect them and understand them, I don't think they really alter er fundamentally our position. Thank you. So we'll reconvene at two. Were you dying to say something Mr Rudd? Julian Rudd Ryedale District Council. About time I put an opinion I think. Erm just three perspectives from a district level on on matters that have been raised. First of all erm Ryedale District isn't saying that the policy is warranted because North Yorkshire is in any unusual regardless of the quality of the countryside here, but that this is a reasonable reflection of national policy on development in the open countryside. Secondly, that I think Ryedale was under the impression that Policy E two wouldn't affect local authorities' choice of allocated sites but that it was a policy to apply outside of developing units and those sites we wish to allocate in local plan and not that was going to restrict our choice, in our case in those sites. And thirdly, with regard to Mr Donson's concern erm I don't feel that the policy precludes the provision of low cost housing on exception sites, er certainly hope it doesn't. Erm however, if it could be made clear perhaps with an extra paragraph in the explanatory memorandum that I would welcome that. Thank you. Succinctly put. Can we come back at two and go straight into matter C, major exceptions. a very low base, and that is going to be used by the Home Secretary when, when he, he, he puts the cash limited budget together next year. We are going to suffer as an authority for many years to come, from that low budget. I actually put forward an amendment, to the police authority, whereby we take that er, million pounds o , of pensions, and by a certain amount of slight of hand, it be put back into county balances, and then re-allocated back to the police authority for this year, and that would have added an extra million to the base budget and it would not have cost this county council one extra penny. And that in fact was, produced a split vote in the police authority fifty fifty, and it, it was chucked out by the chairman's casting vote. That is absolutely correct. Erm, now as as this so called generous funding in fact, the police authority are facing a straight deficit of three hundred and twenty-eight thousand, they are facing a further deficit of four hundred and twenty-five thousand because they have only been given one and a half percent for pay, where all the information we have been given from the Home Office, you can shake your head as much as you like Chairman, it is in fact true, and in fact, in fact as reported in the Guardian,on , only the day before yesterday, yet again the police bill is to be, almost certainly four percent, not one and a half. That amounts to another four hundred and twenty-five thousand, the total shortfall is therefore seven hundred and fifty-three thousand, and that's without any projection costs. I mean they've gone out the window. Erm, Now erm yes or it's zero based budgeting. They, on the contrary, the police authority have a working party which had four very long and very detailed meetings and went through their budget line by line by line, and these are the figures they came up with. There was no argument about it, that, that, that was passed by the working party and main authority. So erm, don't let's have any of this nonsense about being, having privileged funding. Erm, the er, I refer to the er, freeze on police officers, in fact we need sixty-eight more. But we're not going to get them now, because this county council won't provi won't pay for them. I certainly support er Mr 's amendment, and totally reject what is here in this democrat , er, er, proposal. Mrs . Thank you very much Mr Chairman. Er, Colonel is erm, doing a very good job over there in trying to make our flesh creep over the whole police situation, but I can tell by some of the remarks that have been erm, given from the body of the chamber that not everybody agrees with him. I would just like to answer one or two things, erm, erm, he, he, one of the things he's saying er, is that erm, oh dear I've forgotten what I was going to say now, and I haven't got it written down, got it written down, can I go on to something else erm, the Home Secretary does seem to be in some disarray over the proposed bill. I'm glad to say it got a thorough sort of leathering in the Lords, and so I think it's rather premature for him to say that by fixing a budget we have belighted the whole police service in Wiltshire, for the next er, eight or whatever number of years he said, I think that certainly is rather premature. I have hopes that this bill will very much, will be very much amended, er, when it comes to the Commons. Erm, Mr mentioned about erm, the new provisions would cut down the paperwork, work and put more policemen on, police on the beat. But erm, the Chief Constable himself, and I have heard him say this, has no confidence that the paperwork will be reduced and that any er, more constables will be seen on the beat. I'm also very worried, and this has been mentioned erm, by Mr , that the er, the Home Secretary seems to regard the police constabulary as a mere crime busting organisation, whereas really, the preventative work, the crime prevention, the work in the schools and the community work is absolutely vital if we are ever to solve, erm, we're ever to stop, the er, if we're ever able to stop the rise in crime, and this really has to be done hand in hand, I feel with local councils, and I'm glad to say that there are some initiatives around, one of them in Mr 's own district, which is making erm, some very important steps towards that. Erm, one other thing that I want to make about erm, the victims, erm, I am very much er, involved with erm, victim support Wiltshire, and one of the problems with victim support Wiltshire is their work is increasing all the time because the crime rate goes up, and every time there is more crime there is more victims, but the, the Government has not yet said that they will put the money up that they erm, that they er, the grant up that they give to the victim support. If perhaps the Government were to fund victim support properly, Erm, Mr who was burgled and has never got over it might perhaps have had a visit and some counselling from a victim support worker, and that would be a very good thing. Thank you very much. Mr . Thank you Chairman. Colonel really can't have it all ways. Er, in his er, comment just now he er, referred to the enor , the enormous er, amount that it was costing this council to er, fund the special protection service. Erm, when I drew attention to this, one of the first things I did when I got elected to this council, erm, we get papers back which seem to suggest that in fact the Home Office are funding it at a level which, dare I say suggests that we might even make a small profit, er and I have in fact recently been approached by colleagues from Gloucestershire, asking us how we manage in that er, er exercise, because they're concerned about the high cost of er, protection for certain royal establishments in their county. And they're most interested on how we er, achieve this exercise. The fact of the matter is, that the police are getting more money, and they do need to er, manage their resources most carefully. And yes we did argue, I think there were fourteen meetings of the finance working party involving hours and hours of consideration and we were er, treated to four meetings lasting fourteen hours, fourteen hours, in total. We were treated to the long diatribes of detailed considerations about the cost of paper clips and God knows what else. The fact of the matter, at the same time, erm, as you yourself have said, Chairman, we are in a situation where we have four communication rooms coming down to two next year hopefully, I personally think it should come down to one, but lets recognise that they're costing the police authority one point six million pounds, they're tying up forty-one uniformed police officers, and something like fifty er, civilian officers on those exercises. So lets be quite clear that there is still a great deal of slack in the police budget,whi money that could be used to er, put policemen on the beat. Mention has been made to the paperwork, I think that it's worth reminding ourselves that a lot of the paperwork that has been generated, is a direct result of Conservative government introduced legislation, particularly cri criminal justice er, legislation, which requires a considerable amount of paperwork, erm, to be completed by officers, quite often in long, in longhand, and not making use of technology, where in fact they er, a great deal of time and effort could be con , er could be er, saved. Members, other members have referred to the crime prevention exercise, I'm very pleased that this council has actually grasped that nettle and is going to fund a crime prevention co-ordinator at some stage in the near future. I notice it's not coming out of the police authority budget, it's coming out of publi , er this, this er committee's budget. But, we, we really need to er, put the cart before the horse, or the horse before the cart as you may say, I mean, we are now being told by the leader of the Conservative group, that er, we're going to, we, we should be supporting the idea of amateur parish constables. I look to the day when the, to see what the tabloids make, when one of these individuals gets clobbered over the head er, in carrying out their duties. I think this is policing on the cheap, and it is something profoundly to be regretted. I would much rather see more emphasis placed on er, enhancing the special constabulary, er, because I think that is a, a far more er, productive initiative. I mean I am totally opposed to vigilantes on the street, and that's what I think a parish constable service er, runs the risk becoming. But at the end of the day, there simply is no point in punishing criminals if you can't catch them, and I think it is absolutely critical that we should be devoting our attention er, to policing that catches criminals and prevents crime, and I entirely support the, the points just made about the er, initiatives within the community particularly in the schools, because I think it is absolutely critical that we er, promote a society where crime should not pay. Sadly, in modern Conservative dominated Britain, crime pays. Thank you Chairman, I, I, I'm rather amazed actually, at Colonel 's er, comments because er, in Stratton St Margaret there has been a sixty-one percent increase in crime, and a four and a half percent detection, decrease in the detection and prosecution of crime, and I was absolutely amazed when he come out with the figure that there's going to be a seven hundred and fifty- three thousand pound shortfall in the police budget, when on the radio, in my car this morning, from a very reputable source of Wiltshire , there was a police officer on there this morning, saying how good they were in producing a freebee newspaper for distribution to every household in the county, to show the police offi , the Chief Constable's report this year. My question is to, that er, police officer or to the Chief Constable, or to anybody who can answer, how much is it gonna cost that, for that paper to be produced, and would it not be better spent in putting a police officer in Stratton St Margaret, where there hasn't been one on the beat for the last six months, to help us reduce the number of er, of crimes committed in Stratton. I would like an answer to that. How much is it gonna cost the police authority to produce this freebee newspaper? Mr Thank you Chairman, I despair sometimes when I listen to, to everybody trying to make points out of a discussion like this. I mean, what we're talking about is that throughout the whole of the world, there has been a tremendous increase in crime, whether it be in Britain, in France, in Germany or wherever. What we're also talking about, is elderly people being able to go out at night and not be too frightened to go out at night. And the only way round that situation, that may not even amount to crime when they're put in fear, it may amount to yobbos on the pavement, or people er, cycling on the pavement or just being their usual threatening loutish selves. At the end of the day, the only way to do something about that is to put more men on the streets. I mean increasingly we see that we're, we get more constables here more constables there, but they don't ever appear to be actually out on the streets, and until we can get more men on the streets with the deterrent effect that their appearance has, let alone anything else, we are not gonna get much further. Our, most of our rules and most of our laws are made by people who are frightened of losing their property, and not the sort of people who are frightened of being mugged at night. If they were the sort of people that were frightened to go out, up to the newspaper shop or something like that, our penalties and our, our priorities would be slightly different. And my plea is, apart from all the politics that's going on, and all your wrong and I'm right, etc, etc, etc, if we've got sixty-odd police constables available, then, somehow or other we ought to try and find the money to resource them. If that money has to come out of the existing budget, then we should, or the Chief Constable, or the Police Committee ought to look at the priorities again. But the number of police constables that we can have available, would make a big difference to the lives of the very ordinary people, and that's where we should be looking at first. Thank you. Miss . Thank you. Yes, well, I mean I'm very happy to be able to agree totally with that erm, people who make the laws aren't the people who suffer from the the physical , and matters might be a great deal better if erm, they paid a bit more attention, I do hope that he would agree however, erm, that police officers who are female also have a good effect on the streets, because he was acting as if erm, it was only the male person who were any use, and I'm sure that is not so. Erm peo , people can't have it all ways, there hasn't been any cut in the police service, in the police budget, I'm sorry, erm we have for many years funded the police in a very generous way. This county council has funded them more than social services erm, for, I don't have the figures in front of me today, but for a long time, erm, this is unlike the overwhelming majority of county councils, who spend more on social services than they do on the police. So as a proportion of our budget, they have been well funded by Wiltshire, and I don't think anybody could dispute that. It, it's possible that the, the, the manning per hectare in this very rural county is lower than in central London, I wouldn't be at all surprised. But erm, you know, it's, it's like erm, if you talk about erm, funding per head or funding for the, for the overall spaces, you know, if it's Mr , he always wants to be funded by the, the mile of roadblock for the population, because we have rather a lot of one to the other, and I think there may be a similar situation with the police. Erm, I don't see how anybody can possibly say that the police are not privileged. Every other committee, or part of this county council has, with the exception of probation service which we did today, social services and libraries which we did at budget revue, have been funded at last year's cash limit plus one and a half percent. The exception to this is the police, who have had by far the largest addition to that, they haven't lost money when they lost S S A, erm, we have been ge , extremely generous to them, far more than to any other committee this year, erm, and although we haven't given them money for, to pay awards because we don't know exactly what it is. We've never given money directly for pay awards anyway, because if you do that, that's what the claim always is, you know. There is sufficient money in balances to pay our share of that, if we need to do so, and I think making scare stories about it doesn't do anything towards what I hope we all want, which is an efficient, effective police force in this county, protecting us erm from crime, and helping to prevent as much crime as possible. I, I urge you to support 's motion. Mr . Thank you Chair. I think has summed up quite well there I think, which, what everyone's aims is, which is that we want an effective and efficient police force, which everyone has got confidence in to make sure that it protects citizens against crime in this country, and nothing could be, I don't think anybody who is erm, civilised in this county or this country would want anything different. But I think that there has been some interesting arguments put forward this morning about the act, there's more policemen, or sorry, should I say police officers available to Wiltshire. But if the Home Secretary feels that we can have more, er, er, police officers, why doesn't he give us the money so we can employ them. I mean it's as simple as that, and I Colonel 's comments, saying how hard done by Wiltshire police constabulary could be next year because we haven't set over the odds budget for this year so that the Home Secretary can take it on. If he, the Home Secretary feels that Wiltshire's so badly funded next year, if he's a caring and considerate Home Secretary, then he'll put more money into Wiltshire and provide more police officers for Wiltshire. It makes a change that the burden of more want is put on the central government instead of local authorities, because too often in the past, central government has said, in many issues, oh, we think you should have that, but the responsibility for paying for it comes from the local authority. But we're not going to give you any more money. So it'll be nice to see the tables turned, and Mr start, keep rather quiet about the number of extra policemen, sorry, police officers needed in this county, and other counties in the country, because he'll have to pay for it himself won't he? And that'll be a t turn up for the books for him. But what does amaze me, is the reason why this motion came forward in the first place. It was quite obvious Mr thought he had something up his sleeve to embarrass the Labour party and Liberal Democrat parties of this, this council. He thought, when this Lieutenant Colonel came back to him and said, oh my God the police budget's in problems, we've got em here, that they put something onto the council agenda. And he's had it slapped in his face, because this council has provided an adequate budget for the police authority, it has pr , treated it fairly and squarely like every other council committee, and made sure that the service they provide is adequate for the people of this county. It's funny that he flags at the interests of the party of crime. I think nowadays we all know, that the flagships of the conservative party, crime is no longer a thing they can fly high. We're on about taxation this week, well the- they're in trouble over that now. The party of low taxes, the party of high taxes they failed on that. I won't mention back to basics because I know that's really embarrassing for them so we- not, we'll go over that very quickly as possible . So we have had a failing government, we've had a failing Tory administration, and the people who are interested in looking after this county and all it's services within the budget set by central government, has made sure that we have got a good police force, which it will not receive cuts in it's services, cuts in it's er, it's, it's er, forces, and make sure that other services, like education, social services, libraries, highways and everything else will also be adequately funded in this county. Right, well I'm going to reply to the debate, and then I hope we can move to a vote, ah, oh I didn't see your hand earlier Mr , I'm sorry. Thank you Chairman. I think enough has been said regarding this today, in relation to this, I think we have supported our police force, we have a fine police force in this county. We're very supportive of it and have been. Unfortunately, as was earlier on, central government has led the attacks, it's led the attacks through Sheehey right the way through, and we were supportive of our police then, I think not only of this county, but of all counties, and all county police forces said the same, and we will support our police force, and certainly this budget recommends itself to that. If central government wishes to increase those expenditure levels when they go over, that is down to them. They've been trying to get the police on the cheap for too long, and blaming us, and now I think the tables are very reversed. Thank you. As I say I think I'll sum up and have a vote, and then I intend to break for lunch on conclusion of this item. I think what I find most unfortunate, is the intellectual dishonesty of the Home Secretary. He's a very bright man, Michael Howard, but it's quite clear that he's much more concerned with grabbing the headlines and finding scapegoats, than with taking action through law that will actually improve the chance, both of preventing crime and of detecting crime, and then even more so, deterring people from re-offending, and it's most distressing to see that when research showed that a particular non-custodial method of punishment is effective in perhaps fifty or seventy or eighty percent of cases, whereas prison is not, he goes for prison, he goes for picking on squatters, he goes for picking on the defendants right to silence so that we can see more people like er, jailed when they were innocent. But I've left that sort of civil liberty out of this motion today, because we can't deal with all the, because we can't deal with everything all at once, but perhaps it can be tou touched at council, because we had Colonel , who also doesn't like to be confused with the facts, trying to tell us that next year the, or the year after next, budgets will be cash limited, but I've got news, they already are cash limited. They are trying to suggest that erm, somehow this year we're cutting the police budget, he seems to have forgotten that last year when he was chairman of the police authority, a three hundred thousand pound cut, a genuine cut was made in the police authority budget, budgets were cut to make up to make up to that three hundred thousand, at the discretion of the Chief Constable, and to the credit of Mrs , and her other colleagues in the police committee, virtually no attempt was made to make political capital at that time, instead of which now, when all we've seen is a request for the Chief Constable to defer proposed new spending, all of a sudden this is presented as a cut. Now reference was made to the police finance working party which met for a long period of time, and unfortunately made no progress whatsoever in zero base budgeting. There's obviously been a misunderstanding there, a lack of communication or whatever, but whereas some departments have got to grips with the issue, unfortunately police wor finance working party just stuck to the traditional way, rather reminiscent of Mr 's old budget working party days, which doesn't get to grips with the real needs and the real costs. Now Mr referred to a two percent clear up rate, I'm not quite certain what figure that is, I know in Wiltshire it's much better than that in the thirties and forties. But nationally the clear up rate has fallen under the Conservatives from forty-one percent to twenty six percent, and there is no excuse at all for a freeze on the number of police officers when we were promised an extra thousand. Ah, but you're going to be getting some extra police officers by taking them off er, paperwork, er you're gonna get two thousand three hundred I see in the press, well that as shown, that of course will be twenty three, but if anybody here thinks the Chief Constable's gonna produce twenty three new police officers through reductions in paperwork and through the other initiatives the Home Secretary has announced, well I don't believe them, and we shall have to wait and see. This council needs to take seriously crime prevention and crime detection and most of all fear of crime, and that's why it's become part of the policy committee's concern, and I think that's with the police committee's agreement, for years they've been trying to tell us to get involved in crime prevention, and from next year we're going to do that. Crime prevention is not just about retribution, about making the little buggers pay. It's about preventing crime, because people who are burgled would rather not have been burgled in the first place. Hear, hear. And of course the deterrents that we've had, over the years, when they they've been of the emotive and knee jerk sort, and I remember the short sharp shock for instance, under Whitelaw, they didn't work, because they weren't thought out, they were just to make them clap at the Tory party conference. To his credit, Lord Whitelaw having been forced to bring in the short sharp shock, dropped it when it was proved not to work. Everybody hopes that we've forgotten about that, but we haven't, and we're reminded of it because of the courage of Lord Whitelaw and his advanced age and ill health, getting on to the T V last week and saying the Home Secretary is wrong to nationalise the police. Hear, hear. In fact , Conservative opposition in the Lords is proving very important, and if Colonel is concerned about the future level of the police budget, why doesn't he do a bit more to stop this nationalisation of the police going through parliament at the moment, and I just want to quote the, the words of Conservative Chairman of the Sussex police authority, over the years from nineteen eighty-two to nineteen ninety-three, four of them, and the most senior of course, who led the Association of County Councils for the Conservatives. These ill judged proposals present a dangerous step towards a politicised national police force. They are irrelevant to the battle against crime, and the improved efficiency of the police service which we all support. I can't put it better than that. And finally, the criminal injuries compensation scheme, to cut the amounts paid to people who are victims of gang rape, to cut the amount paid to people who are victims of child abuse, that shows just how much the Home Secretary cares about the victims of crime, and his other measures show that he's far more concerned with his own career, with pleasing the Conservative party conference, and with trying to do anything, anything I mean he's brought in whatever it is, twenty-seven proposals, one or two of them are bound to work, if you throw enough stuff at the fan, some of it usually hits the target. But we've got to take the issue seriously. Mr is still moving a motion which refers to the party conference proposals which have now moved on to bills before the house. He might be more constructive if he cared to pick which items from that he agrees with, we might even find a measure of agreement on one or two of the issues, because they're not all rubbish. But I move my motion, and I ask for those in favour to please show I'm so sorry, Mr 's amendment. Those in favour of Mr 's please show Those against. That is lost. Those in favour of the substantive motion please show those against That is carried. adjourn for lunch and be back at two. Welcome back. Item twenty-one, regional representation on the European Union Committee of the Regions. I er, move the motions set down in the order paper and, does anybody else wish to speak on this? Those in favour please say aye. aye Those against. Oh, That is carried. That doesn't necessarily mean it's wrong. I don't think it's, I don't think it's an essential office motion, otherwise Cornwall would have done it by now. Item twenty- two one budget review sub-committee minutes, I move to receive the minutes from the budget sub-committee those in favour say aye. aye And against that is carried. Erm, twenty-two two the recommendations not yet dealt with, the first is the review of the County Farms estate, and I will move paragraph nine one, that is to say the recommendation of the property services sub-committee okay, here we are,which is a recommendation to this committee to adopt option one as set out in the submitted report namely to maintain the County Farms estate at around it's present size, and to manage it in accordance with the nineteen eighty-eight review of the estate. I will say in moving that, would I note that the property services, the property sub- committee I should say, is receiving a further report on recommendations on how to preserve the long-term viability of the estate, which I consider to be the right priority, erm, the long- term viability of the estate is essential for the value both as an estate and for the value of it er, to us should we need to dispose of any of it for development land in the future. Erm, Mr . Thank you chair. I wish to move an amendment which is erm, that we defer any decision on this until the property, the director of property services has made his report to the property sub- committee on the erm, future, stroke to the organisation, which is th , the subject of his next report to property sub- committee. Seconded. Yeah, I think that we need to look into more depth the issue of the County Farms estate, we agreed from the start it was something that could not be rushed, and we had to, the principle question that needed to be answered was that was there a viability for County Farms or role for County Farms in the nineteen nineties. I think that that question has been answered, and I think the role of the estate has been answered in the report put by Mr . But since the initial motion was put forward by the policy and resources committee the question of local government review has become more prominent within the minds of this council and other councils across the country, and I think that issue needs to be addressed before we make as a cou , a council our final decision on the County Farms estate. Can I just clarify then, how far do you imagine this being deferred, that is to say are you awaiting the outcome of the local government commission report No , I do believe that Mr 's report is coming to the March property er, sub-committee and then it will be the subsequent meeting of the policy and resources committee which will be at the end of March. er, any debate discussion will be deferred until the report as described in nine one two has been reported to the property committee, this is a report to the next meeting recommendations on how to preserve the long-term viability of the estate. So what happens to the resolution that, woolly resolution that came from property at the bottom of the budget page four, resolved? To that's that's dropped, that's all deferred is it? Right, I'm the chairman of the meeting, so I'll try and tell you what I understand Mr has moved. He's moved that this matter be deferred. He's made reference, in his mov motion, to a report coming to the next property services sub-committee, and I recognise that report as referred to in nine two of these minutes of budget review sub-committee. Erm, and I understand that to be the position. Any other report, erm, such as to request the director of property services fully to explore all options for the disposal of all or any part of the County Farms estate for the maximum financial benefit to the County Council, that sort of report for instance has not been requested by the property sub- committee nor by any other committee with erm, er, as I understand it. According to Mr 's motion. Right, Mr . Yes Chairman, we we did have this debate in er budget review as I remember it. Erm, if we are asking Mr to look at the long-term viability and the ways of preserving that, those options may be other than option one which was what you moved, and I think it's rather premature to actually go down a road that says we preserve it in it's present form with some disposals, when, we are asking for a report for it's future viability, which may mean complete disposal, or may not, and I think, that, that's why I've seconded Mr 's amendment, because it's right we should wait for that that report to come to property, know the full facts, and then we can make a decision as to which option we want for the County Farms estate. So it's only a matter of two months and than I think we can make a long-term decision, not the short-term. I there is a worry of course, that, er County Farms if we happen to end up in three unitary authorities, could be said to be not a core activity of those three new authorities, especially the core of an urban one, and it may be that if we're not careful the County Farm estate can end up in the hands of the residuary body for sale, and I think what we're looking, asking Mr to do, is to find ways of, of moving it forward, without ha falling into that net, which may not be what we want. Mr . Thank you Mr Chairman. I'm just a little bit concerned that if we do delay it while discussions are going on about the unitary authorities and such like, we'll put restrictions on Mr running it as a commercial enterprise, and I think we have got to make sure that any long term deferral on this, we don't inhibit him rationalising selling off the odd cottage and this sort of thing, and the farmhouse as we go along, and amalgamating ones because I think it's, he's got to be able to run it as a commercial proposition during the course of deliberations. Mr . Yes, Chair, I'd be very sad if, if anything that was passed here meant that Mr wasn't fully exploring all avenues as described in the terms of resolution passed through budget revue. And I take this opportunity to say that, erm, I had, I moved this at budget revue, and my intention was to move erm, pretty much the wording that Mr moved at property, but I was unable to obtain that wording by the time of the meeting, so I put this forward, erm, knowing that it obviously was different words, but but with that same sense, that we do have to address some very real issues about County Farms and not to pussyfoot about it I think that er, any comparison between the County Farms and a commercial enterprise is a coincidence of terms, but I can't see how we can have forty million pounds worth of estate, as it's valued on the free market, to be making two hundred and ninety-one thousand pounds a year out of it, and think that that is commercial. I can't see how we've had a revue in nineteen eighty-eight which has recommended a very specific course of action, none of which appears to have been implemented, I don't see how we get a report which describes er, the intention of the county council as maintaining the ethos of the County Farms, whatever that is, as I, I don't recall any decisions like that, and certainly if we've made one, I'd be interested in being party to changing it, I think wha what we have to say is we've got a lot of land, are we using it to the best interest of the people of Wiltshire, and that is one thing it's addressing, not a, a way of preserving the County Estates as they are, not a way of keeping a hundred and twenty farmers and their families erm, as tenants of Wiltshire, I mean they're not gonna be out of jobs are they? I think there are many purposes that the County Farms should have, and we need to look at what is the best value financially, that we can obtain for the people of Wiltshire, so when everybody talks about they'd like their country schools maintained, they'd like this that or the other bought, they'd like Corsham station purchased, we could buy it easily if we sold a County Farm couldn't we? And the only thing that seems to stand in the way of doing anything commercially sensible with County Farms is that every time we deal with it, somebody says, ah, but it can only exist as an entity, let's keep it as that, let's pass it on to a trust, let's safeguard it, let's do this and that. Well I'd like to see a very open report, and that's why I Mr , and I'd like him to look at all the options, we're deferring this so that we can see what's possible, you know,, perhaps Hanson Trust would like to come along and offer us fifty million pounds for it, that'd be a fair deal wouldn't it, perhaps somebody else would do that. Perhaps erm, the Duchy of Cornwall would like to take back the land that we rent from them, in order that we can rent it on, lease, well we lease, I mean, same thing isn't it? Erm, we rent land from the Duchy of Cornwall, perhaps, er well you know long leasehold, we bought it this way, and we pay low rent. There are things around this, that I wonder what on earth we're doing and what is the best way forward and I would like to see that kind of report come back to us. And the reason I say it, and the reason I labour the point, is that I think amongst the problems that we've encountered particularly in budget review is to have chief officers and their staff producing reports in which they have a very clear vested interest. Not least in their own jobs. And I think it is a great pity, that this council is losing some of it's capacity to produce reports which are independent of the departments which are the most affected by them. I think the great sadness of the report coming forward on County Farms is that it's no doubt going to be produced by Mr , a further report, and erm, what, what can we say if he comes forward saying it's a wonderful institution and he wants to keep his job running it. Am I going to say oh, I think that's a very fair, free, independent thinking view. It may be it may not. I think that I would like those considerations borne in mind by Mr when he's doing his report, and I'd like us to have a very open view about what we do with the County Farms. Well I'm going to disagree with Mr on a number of issues. He does seem to suggest, that if you're directly interested or if you have a direct interest in something you can't take an objective view, and I would say that actually,members have shown their ability to erm, to achieve something different from that, the way they wear different hats at different committees, Mr comes to mind where he will argue for the D S O's, at the D S O managing board, and for the client at Education Committee. And I actually think it is coming close to a professional slur on Mr to suggest that he can't take an independent view. And what leads me to that conclusion is the distortion that Mr brought in, in suggesting that the estate is worth forty million pounds. If you read the report at paragraph seventy, you'll see that it has an investment value in the region of eight million pounds, it's only worth forty million if you kill all the tenants overnight, which is rather drastic, vacant possession in other words. Now you might achieve vacant possession over a period of seven years. Vacant possession can't be er achieved er, er overnight, as you appreciate but if the Government's agricultural er land tenancy, hey don't keep interrupting. If the Government's agricultural land tenancy reform proposals go through, which I rather hope they do, it'll be a little while yet, we could well see a change in the security of tenure issue, which might make it easier to achieve er, vacancy and vacant possession. And it comes down to a basic difference of approach to this. Either you consider that the County Farms are playing a role set down by law and supported over the years of an, which no other authority and no other body in the country can provide, and which is a socially valuable role, and that is to provide the first step in farming, and clearly they do. Or you think that all they are is another piece of silver to flog off like Mrs Thatcher flogged off the nationalised industries. I don't consider, I don't consider that the severity of this county council's financial position justifies this, in the flog it off at all costs approach. Now, what Mr has moved is to defer the matter, and I'm in mind of to accept that. But I would make clear to Mr if he looks at the minutes of the budget review sub-committee, that the suggestion of the director of property services wastes his time fully exploring all options for the disposal of all or any part of the County Farms estate, for which he probably asks for a large amount of money, since it involves an enormous amount of wasted time, is not been agreed, it's a non-delegated item, it was a recommendation of this committee which has not been moved at this committee, and it was a most unfortunate and woolly form of words. What's been moved Hear hear . is to defer the matter pending the director of property services report which the property sub-committee properly called for at it's last meeting. I'm happy to accept that amendment, and I would put the motion, as amended, to the vote. Those in favour please show those against that is carried. Did you have a bad lunch chair? I had a lovely lunch I just thought I'd try and get my own way for once. Chairman in your haste to get your own way for once, I mean, I had my hand up for about ten minutes and I thought that er, er our friend on your right had appraised you of that, because I think that you gave just as much a distorted view of what the real problem is, as perhaps Mr did, and I think that the way you railroaded that one through does you no credit at all . Yeah,Ch cha chair, it is possible for Mr by moving a, another small but you know, perhaps relatively insignificant motion on, on this same item, as we've not moved to the next one, and I will, I will happily second it, in order to enable him to speak to it, erm, to actually express the views, and very valuable ones, which he does hold. He is actually one of the few amongst us, who is probably quite expert on these matters. He would, he would be worth listening to, I think. Chairman, is that to be the case. Chair, chair point of order, you don't, point of order you, Mr doesn't need to move an an amendment or anything else, you can still accept debate on any item on the agenda until you've called the next agenda item, irrespective of the motion on the table. I know you do Chair, you know what you're doing but I'm saying it's a waste of time us having to move one. Chairman, what a let down this is gonna be. You asked for it. For what it's worth, my opinion in property, and my opinion now, is that we need to retain if we can, a viable unit for County Farms. In other words, a unit which comprises several farms which is big enough for us to move tenants about, and big enough for us to retain a management structure. What we don't or shouldn't do, is to regard every County Farm as a sacred cow. There are opportunities for development in the Swindon front garden, in the Chippenham front garden, the Devizes front garden, wherever, and it is my belief that since this county council originally purchased those farms, and have since maintained them, that if there is going to be a development windfall, then that should accrue to this county council and not to Thamesdown or whoever else it happens to be. The, the problem is, that nobody will ever take, and I suppose it's possible that I don't take, a balanced view of this. Everybody's in their own camp, and it, it, it's only when you come to consider, and I mean my group is nowhere near behind me on this, because we have farmers who, who again think that anything to do with County Farms is sacrosanct. But until you consider the amount of money tied up in County Farms, and the return it gives us, and the, the subsidy if you like of so few people, and you think that school can't have toilets and things like that, then these should all go into the decision making melting pot, and this council should not blind itself to the various options that there could be, and in those circumstances Mr I think should be allowed to explore the possibilities of the market. In as much as, if we are suddenly told, divest yourselves of County Farms, then we will be in a much better position to make a balanced decision, and to maximise return from those County Farms if we had that information available. I do not myself think, that Mr ever produces a biased report on anything, and I would think that, erm, on reflection Mr may think that he overstepped the mark there, er I feel that we should, if we can, defer this in it's entirety, which also includes, the note at the bottom, that would allow Mr to go out and, and, and explore the possibilities. That's all he's gonna do, this council retains the final decision, and we wish to make that decision with the benefit of all the knowledge that is available. And if somehow or other the, the, the whole of that er, erm, number nine, including the can be deferred, and I believe it should be, then that is what I would wish to happen, I would wish Mr to continue to have the freedom to see what the options are for this county council. Right, now there's one, we've made a decision to defer consideration of this report, but because both Mr and Mrs had indicated they wanted to speak before I took the vote, I'm prepared to take the speeches, but I don't know that there's very much of a motion that can legally be moved. Mr Thank you Mr Chairman. Er, I moved the original motion, and the thinking at the time was, after a lot of discussion, that eight one as it appears on the agenda, to maintain the estate at around it's level was the correct decision. And then we added eight two, which asked the director to explore the long-term viability of the estate, now we made that, and I said so at the time, the answer to that could be either positive or negative. This left it to Mr , to come up with sufficient information to enable that decision to be made. Thank you. Mrs I excluded you from the speech after you asked the question Erm I hope two sentences, thank you Mr Chairman. One is, is really, I felt I should reply in support of Mr concerning some of Mr 's remarks. I don't know whether he's read the County Farms Estate report, but it was actually option two, was one of the proposals we had to consider, which was to was to dispose of about a third of the estate, reduce it from twelve thousand acres to nine thousand acres, which was actually rejected at erm, the property sub-committee by all parties, including Labour. Thank you Mr Chairman. Right, next item twenty two A, twenty two two B,commission application for additional funding. It's a recommendation from the budget review sub-committee at minute six. Er, I move to note the decision of the budget review sub-committee. Miss oh, Mrs . Thank you . I'd just like some clarification of what, what this resolution from budget review actually means. Does it mean that P and R today are actually supporting the establishment, establishment of those posts, and we are going to go and get the money, or what? Thank you. I, I, that, that is the answer's in the negative, we're not setting up those posts or funding them today, but they've enabled us, they've prompted us to carry out a revue, I think, I wasn't present at budget review it. Mr . In moving these matters from commissioning in grant A erm, to this committee, erm, even if Social Services had had the money available, if they would have still been moved to this committee. The purpose of that, or the reasoning behind f behind that, was that, over the last few years erm, this type of expenditure has been charged not to Social Services but to the section one three seven account. Which the treasury is responsible for, and this committee is responsible for. Erm, so that the, the purpose of bringing some of these corporate activities back into Policy and Resources where they can perhaps determine how that erm, is going to be managed in the future. And it was the reasoning behind the erm, the resolution at budget review. There's just one point I'd make on erm, the first one, regarding the, th, Wiltshire and Thamesdown Racial Equality Council. Erm, the director's report under statutory responsibilities, does say that under Race Relations act, local authorities have a duty, erm, it's a little bit stronger than that actually in the act. It states it shall be the duty of local authorities, there i-, and on that point I, you know, in this area, I don't think that Wiltshire County Council has done, or spent a great deal of money in actually furthering those. Thank you. Mr . Thank you Mr Chairman. Er, seeing this here, does it mean that anybody that loses er, a vote in a sub-committee can then move it to the budget review to have a second go at winning it? I honestly don't think that's what happened, but, Mr . Chairman, I I note with surprise the attempt by Thamesdown C A B to get extra money, and I w I would wish guidance on how I could join Devizes C A B into the same er, situation. Would I need to, to er, ask for Devizes C A B to considered by the er, the Chief Executive in his report. Would that be sufficient? Right, let's have the Chief Executive. Er, I think there may be a bit of confusion about this minute. My understanding is what the budget sub-committee, well what the Social Services er, committee were saying, was there are a number of grants which in their view are not peculiar or specific to Social Services but are of a corporate nature. Budget sub-committee said, we understand that, what we're asking, what we ask is that the er, director of finance and the Chief Executive look at it and come back with a report. That report would include such grants as we may feel are of a which are of more corporate nature, rather than specifically a service based one, and how we would recommend the council to deal with them. At the moment, it is not transferring, nor has anybody agreed to transfer the burden of those applications to the policy committee. Well er, er lots of hands, one at a time, erm, Sir, with due respect to all members, the officers will make an objective assessment when they report. They will not be pressurised as to what they should put on or should not put on. Chairman, I, I, I, I object to that, because I think that that wasn't either the tone of my question or or the implication of my question. What I'm saying is, that if the Chief er Executive and the fin Chief Finance Officer whoever, is going to make a report, I don't wish him to confine his report to Thamesdown C A B money advice service, I wish him also to consider Devizes C A B money advice service and start regrading. I thought that was fairly straightforward, and didn't deserve the answer it got. We are looking at or, we will be looking at all grants that are made by all committees, to decide which ones in our view should be recommended to you to be treated as a corporate kind of grant. Thank you Chairman. Erm,to actually raise this issue. I mean, I think one, the first thing to be said is that one can assure members covering all the other C A B's was that they actually got their bids in full. If the Thamesdown one didn't, er, the officers for their own reasons have separated out this particular er, activity, erm, and I felt at the time that it was unreasonable to give a hundred percent funding to er, most C A B's but not to one. And I, like Mr ask that this issue should in fact be addressed, we should be looking at their total responsibilities, and I I support the action of the budget review in saying that er, we should be looking at this with a view to it being a corporate responsibility. Er, the I I also make the point, that er, my understanding is having now talked to a number of the other C A B's, that in fact they were looking to Thamesdown money advice centre because this money was actually to replace funds that previously had been er, available through the Allied Dunbar sponsorship scheme, and which has, which I gather was withdrawn er, at very short notice, and they were looking to Thamesdown to er provide that support and resource as a county resource, and I I therefore felt that it was right to bring it forward. But the important point here I think, is that this is a corporate, or may be a corporate res responsibility, and therefore my understanding is that the officers are going to look at those parts which may be looked at as a corporate responsibility, and I would therefore erm, assume that one would look at all the C A B services in that light. Yes, thank you. Er, Mr . Thank you Chairman. I would like, coming back to the erm, racial equality councils, taking into account statutory responsibilities, and I know that certain statutory responsibilities often have in very small print at the end of the act, subject to available resources. I'm not sure that that exists in this case. Erm, but reading it very carefully, and it says, local racial equality councils as well as being supported by the Commission for Racial Equality, and I think that is a very important as well as being supported, are also entitled to receive financial assistance from local authorities. It does appear however, the application made to us, is exclusively local authority support and not a part of an overall support that includes the commission for racial equality. I think that definitely need to be looked into, as does the er, requirement of this particular post within the act. Now that is the type of thing that I would like to see come back for legal opinions on that statutory responsibility, the level of it, and the reasons for it. I think, the reference is a general reference, and the minute is a general minute. Erm, there are a number of issues, there are three separate issues there's the C A B issue, which I remember for years trying to get additional staff funded in the North Wiltshire C A B from from this council and we couldn't afford it then and we can't afford it now. And in the end the district council were able to afford a bit of funding towards staff, which broke a tradition that district councils tended only to fund premises, erm, and indeed the district council have done that as well in our case, recently by moving them to better premises. There's, there's the Racial Equality council issue, where erm, I mean I think there's er, I would like to look again at the degree to which compliance and contract compliance can be achieved through the county council's procedures which we looked at about four years ago, and I would see that at least as important as working and funding outside activities. But erm, in a sense both of those are subsidiary to the general erm, point of the recommendation of the motion of the debate, which is that, erm, since we're entreatingly trying to set corporate priorities and a corporate policy for this council, certain voluntary sector organisations such as C A B and C R, C R E's, clearly work in that sort of field, and clearly have the sort of objectives which fit, which may fit into our own corporate objectives. Erm, I'm, I don't know to what degree the specific er cases for development workers erm, and indeed the extra funding for Thamesdown fit into our corporate responsibilities, because we haven't phrased them yet, and we haven't seen the report. But I do think the specific point you make as to whether there's any prospect of the National Commission for Racial Equality putting any money towards the development worker that's wished, ought to be addressed by somebody at some point in the context of preparing the next report. Erm, was there somebody else had their hand up? No? Can I move that we mo go to, I'll put this to a vote then, those in favour of the recommendation from budget review please show and the against that's carried. Twenty three, twenty three one. The minutes of the Economic developments and Tourism sub-committee meeting tenth of January, I move that those are received. Those in favour please say aye and the against they're received. Number two the Rural Development Area for South West Wiltshire and I move the recommendations as shown at erm, one, two, three, four, five and six in minute fourteen of the minutes of . Those in favour please show Aye. And the against that is carried. Item twenty four meeting held on the eleventh of January are received those in favour please say aye. Aye. And the against that is carried. Twenty four two, the re- designation of the director of public protection, the Chief Executive to report. Er, sir, er yesterday I received a letter from the Institute of Trading Standards Administration, and if I may I'll read a paragraph from it. My institute would wish for it's concern that having striven to establish the statutory qualification, the Diploma in Trading Standards, and consequently persuading employing authorities as officers holding that qualification use the title Trading Standards Officers now sees the potential of confusion . The institute clearly does not wish to interfere with the er, council's rights er, to decide what it should call er people. Er, I don't know how members, er, may feel about it. I, I appreciate that one of the concerns was the use of the word director, er, and maybe it would er, help us all out of the problem, after all, you have decided to merge the two departments, and therefore calling them er, Chief Officer, using the two department's names seems to work against what your attempts have been, and therefore maybe Chief Public Protection Officer, rather than director. You have a Chief Fire Officer. I know this caused an immense amount of debate at Personnel sub-committee, and I thought that Personnel sub-committee had come to a reasonable solution. I note that the, this Institute of Trading Standards Administration suggests a title such as Director of Consumer and Trades Services, Director of Health and Consumer Services, Head of Regulatory Services, and Department of, I don't want to, you can't call a person department. I think it, I think it's a combined Director of Trading and Consumer Protection. They're not trying to push, they are only trying to be helpful, but I think it is a material matter for the committee to consider. Mr . I was just having a word with one of your colleagues here trying to take up what Mr 's point was and I think we've come up maybe with a compromise, is that we call him the County Public Protection Officer. And I will move that. Mr will be able to sleep silently in his bed. Yes, the problem was, with the previous suggestion of Chief Public Protection Officer,director, appeared to have confused with the responsibilities of the Chief Fire Officer, but if we say County Public Protection Officer. Mr , oh well, we've already appointed him so at least we don't have to alter the outcome. Erm, Mr . As always, it's something very small that has the longest discussion property, and it was at personnel. Erm, I don't like long titles, and er, and erm, and I am wary also of the public protection words because I think they do infer, as, as was stated quite clearly at personnel, they do infer that the Chief Fire Officer's somewhere in there as well, and he isn't. Erm, surely we can find something, director of consumer protection or director of consumer Miss Well, I, I, I find that one difficult. Firstly because I understand there's some problem with the word director, which I don't understand, but everybody says, well I don't understand, but well, maybe some officer will explain that to me when I finish speaking. But if if you just say consumer protection, you're not covering the public health side of it awfully well. Erm,that seems to me Yeah, well an awful lot of this, this sort of waste disposal regulatory work and so on is, is very distantly removed from most consumers, and they would be rather surprised if they knew you were doing it. Well only, er thank you Mr Chairman, just very briefly to second the, the objections to the word director. I mean we have all had representations about this particular word of director, er, er, it implies the n er, the er, certain superiority of that service over another under public protection. Erm, Yes,. Erm, have we, did personnel receive anything from erm, the erm, from er, the Chief er Public Health Officer? I mean has there been any, because there may be some argument in having a quick go at it at public protection, and hearing from the new department what they'd like their chief officer to be called. Sir, er I und Mr I understand that one of the problems is the word consumer which is not er er, particularly liked in some quarters. Erm, and therefore you're thrown back at er finding something else, this sort of vague compromise of director of this that or this that and the other, er, er, appeared, and er it seems to me A long winded, er but also, it indicates something against what you've already tried to do, which is to merge the two together. Now I appreciate that some people seem to object to the words public protection, erm I'm not certain why bearing in mind you have a public protection committee. oh, come on. No, I, I'm . Still remember that we're debating Mr 's amendment which is director of consumer protection. Mr . Chair, I think, er I think anyone can say that, that Mr , as the County Public Protection Officer isn't going to be in charge of the fire service. It's obvious the Chief Fire Officer will be in charge of the fire service, and I don't see there's any problem between the two. The public protection committee deals with the th , the consumer affairs, public health, trading standards and it therefore, the person who's in charge of those three departments should have the, the thing as public protection. The the fire service is separate but it reports to the public protection committee. I think it's quite obvious and quite distinct. Mr Sir I'm beginning to wish I'd never resurrected this matter. But, there was concern about the title of the director of public protection. To answer the question of Mrs , I have spoken to Mr , he is Mr, and he has already explained, would like a short title, and would like to keep away from the previous department's tasks of trading standards and public health for obvious reasons. Erm, if members don't like the word consumer then I think they would have to use public, er it does cover, I I think the title County Public Protection Officer would er, er satisfy Mr and I don't think it would upset the Chief Fire Officer. Right , those in fav any more speakers mustn't forget. Those in favour of Mr 's amendment, which is director of consumer protection please show One, two, three, four And those against. That is lost. Those in favour of Mr 's motion, county public protec er nearly, Mr . I assume, Chairman, director is the right word, because we've used it amongst all the other, we've got the director of library services, we've got the director of property services and what have you. I believe it should be director of public protection. Right, those in favour of Mr 's amendment seconded. Mr 's amendment is director of public protection, those in favour of that please show , those against Erm, we come to Mr 's motion, director County public protection officer, those in favour please show those against Item twenty-five, the minutes of the property sub-committee held on the thirteenth of January. Erm, first of all I move that we receive the minutes. Those in favour of receiving the minutes please say aye. Aye. And those against that is carried. Er, twenty-five two A, the capital disposal of surplus property, Mr Thank you Mr Chairman, this was erm, a comment on the minutes at twelve two. Could we convey the thanks of the members of this committee to the property services and the chief executive's department, for their efforts in effecting sales and gaining large scale capital receipts for the county. Thank you. Yes, I'd certainly second that, and I think you can see from the figures that er a great deal of work was done, and a great deal was achieved. The erm, with that addition I will move the recommendation in paragraph three of minute twelve of the property sub-committee's minutes,to make representation to the association of county council urging the Government to reconsider it's policy in not allowing local authorities permanently to make use of the full amount of capital realised from sales of assets. Mr . Thank you Chairman. You moved that, that, that local authorities should be able to make use of the full amount of capital from it's receipts. Of course we do. You don't sell a house and keep the mortgage, we have debts. We have probably less debts maybe than some of the other authorities in Wiltshire, and Thamesdown has a far greater debt than ours. But it is only right, it's public money, that if we are owing money, that we should have to use some of the er money from realisation of assets, to repay the debt. If we were then to get to a position like Dorset County Council, who have no debts, they of course can spend a hundred percent of the money they realise from assets. And I get rather tired of the constant accusations that councils can't spend, they're not allow , they, they have to, they lose fifty percent of receipts, they don't lose them, they go to the benefit of the chargepay er tax, council tax payers of this county, in reducing the debt and reducing the debt burden of interest, er interest on the budget. And I'm quite happy with the present situation. Miss Well I think what Mr is really saying is that the Conservative round Dorset, in er, the first sort of, I don't know, six decades of this cen this century were rather more sensible than the Conservatives who ran Wiltshire at the same time, because they made sure they acquired some assets they could flog for development, and put themselves in this happy position, which the ones in Wiltshire had obviously failed to do. Erm, I'm quite sure that we ought to be able to spend this money, and I think it's it's very sensible and it would help a great deal with the problems that we have. And I think for Mr to pretend that the Government has nothing to do with our problems, is unfortunately becoming more and more threadbare as an excuse. Right erm, oh Mr . Chairman, er I don't often disagree with er Mr in front of me there, but I have been consistent in my approach over the years, er, wherever I've had the had the opportunity to speak at political meetings and ministers have been present. I have consistently said why don't they allow er, councils to spend the receipts from council houses on building new houses, and I've never been impressed with the replies nor the reasons. Er, and in this instance I have consistently erm, asked that we, we do all we can, to allow us to spend our capital receipts, and the fact that we had the holiday last year was er, er, of of great benefit to this this council, erm, there are er times when we should er perhaps be putting money into reserves or paying off debt, but this council should be allowed to make those decisions rather Hear hear rather than the appropriate minister, so, in this instance, and I I I can't support er on this issue. I think, I think I would, having moved the recommendation would seek to clarify what we're asking the Government to reconsider, erm, because we're not saying what they should come up with as a new policy, but I think we could add the words, for capital investment, at the end of the motion, recognising that at one level of government, central government it has been the practice in the past, er when they had some capital they could sell in the form of British Telecom shares and er, indeed other nationalised industries, er not to use the er the results erm, er release this realised by that capital disposal for capital investment, instead to use it for revenue purposes, which was in the long term somewhat unfortunate. But it comes down to, first of all, whether it's sensible to borrow against assets, and all of us do if we're lucky enough to own our own homes we tend to have borrowed either our first mortgage or sometimes a second against it, and we make our own judgement, and I see there are some suggestions on how the Government spotted this with regard to schools in suggesting that perhaps schools could raise money by mortgaging their school buildings, of course It doesn't sound quite so good when you put it at that sort of level, cause it puts a school at risk, but of course there's no reason why a county council shouldn't borrow considerably more than this council does, looked at on accounting principle, unless I'm wrong, and Mr I'm going to call in a minute, will correct me if I am. But it seems to me we've got more than enough assets to cover the borrowings we've got at the moment and indeed many more besides. It should be a matter of judgement for local authorities to what degrees they are indebted, because they do have to pay the interest, by and large from the er, from the money they raise on erm, on on council tenants, and and from other income. But er having added to the debate and added those words to the motion, I'll call Mr . Yes Chair,I think Mr was quoting Michael Portillo wasn't he in about the er, when you sell a house you don't not pay off the mortgage, and of course what most people do is buy another house, sorry who was it? Oh alright. When you, when you sell a house you pay off the mortgage of course, what most people do is, when they've sold their house and paid off the mortgage, they take out another mortgage and, and buy another house, because they need one to live in. Erm, what of course people like Mr Portillo do, is, sell other people's houses, pay off the mortgage and throw them out on the street. But, the reality is In Westminster, in Westminster city council, how many thousands of people thrown on the street, moved out but, yes. But of course, the Government already controls the capital borrowing that we can make. They control our borrowing limits. We've had a very restricted capital programme, which your group Mr , particularly Mr were complaining about earlier in this meeting, which restricts the amount of road- building we can do. Now if the Government wish to restrict the capital borrowing that we can make, which they do anyway, why do they need to restrict, also, what we do with the results of any spending, why don't they allow us to spend it perhaps, on the roads, that Mr would like to see built? Mr Thank you Mr Chairman. I don't know whether I'm agreeing or disagreeing with Mr . But I think it is a point. I think if we go down not having a responsible position to our debts, repaying our debts in the long term, erm, we are going to be restricted on what we can borrow with the capital, because no government is going to, you know, my party or your party, is going to let us go on building debts, and more debts by giving us permission to borrow money and more money and more money. And it does worry me because, if we're going to go into unitory authorities whose going to take over these debts, if we're going to build them up? And what you said about mortgaging a school, how can a school mortgage it's school premises if we've already mortgaged it, with our eighty-five million borrowing, we've already got half the schools in this county on a mortgage anyway. So, you know, they're taking a second mortgage, not a first mortgage, because we've already mortgaged it. I would back Mr 's opinion, and I think we ought to take a responsible position towards paying off our debts. And if it means fifty percent of whatever we get in capital receipts going to pay off our debts, it's a worthwhile attitude, and I think we ought to take our debts responsible. We shouldn't just think we're not going to be here in two years time, it's somebody else's problem, they'll take over our debts. I'll put it to the vote, those in fa , sorry, so sorry Yes, I er, at the risk of getting unpopular with other people that live in Swindon today. Erm, let's cover one or two things, because about a year ago, in two articles in the local use, sorry who was it?allowed to sell the accumulated fund from council house sales, on building new houses, and two weeks later the deputy leader of the council, argued that he needed that money invested because the council couldn't exist without the interest on it. Now that's a case of having your cake and eating it, isn't it? And actually, when we come back to the paper in front of us, I would like to get one other thing clear. It's perfectly true that the front garden policy on the assets has been stated by Thamesdown Borough Council they don't want to sell it. That is Thamesdown Borough Council who don't own it. Er, and this came up several years ago, when this council went into conversation with the Goddard Estate, and the Goddard Estate wishing to dispose of our assets. At that particular moment of time, as the leader of the Labour group here, I had a discussion with the leader of the Labour group on Thamesdown Borough Council, with the political officer down there , and I was asked to resist any attempt to sell off the garden of Swindon, because once Thamesdown became a unitary authority, it would want that to sell for itself to get it's capital. Now that has never been denied by the leader of that council, although he keeps on, it is not Thamesdown's policy. You know it's a hypocrisy anything that comes from that side. Point of order, Chairman, point of order, can I, can I Chairman, point of order, this is not Thamesdown council. Point of order, point of order, can Mr give any written evidence that the leader or Thamesdown Borough Council, in a meeting with him as leader of the Labour group on this council, that he made that statement? If he cannot, then I suggest Mr keeps quiet, because people could accuse him of lying for the sake of lying's sake. Now I think it's, I think erm, the best question to ask in these circumstances is who benefits? And erm , it s it seems to be an entirely er rational position for any public politician, for instance, Mrs Thatcher before the seventy-nine election, denying that she had any plans to double V A T, or Mr Major denying some of the plans for raising taxes that we've come up with, or indeed denying plans to privatise the forestry commission. Well he did That is not the matter before us. The matter before us is whether to recommend, whether to make representations to the A C C as shown in minute three, with the words for capital investment added at the end. Those in favour please show and the against Yes. Thank you . That is carried. Twenty-five two v, minute fourteen of property sub-committee disposal of assets in the borough of Thamesdown. We are recommen , I will move that we amend the County Council's policy of consultation with the borough and district councils, by increasing the three week period referred to in the report, under er paragraph six, to six weeks. Aye. Those in fav , well Mr Chairman, this is not what we, er, agreed before, and it seems to me that there's been some re-thinking on this, and I hesitate to say that once again, er, members are trying to face all ways because they don't want to upset somebody, but the policy that we've had in the past, had total support at property, and it is, it is a policy that has worked. And we've had, had instances of why that policy didn't work, and I'm only sorry that those people who supported it before are finding it impossible to support it now. Mr , I'm moving exactly what I moved at property sub- committee. To increase from three weeks to six weeks, and I believe it's important to respond to district and borough councils when we're trying to co-operate with them. Not to do what they want, because we're certainly not giving the sort of assurance that's requested in the borough council's motion, and we're certainly not giving special treatment to the borough. But we are responding by saying, well, we will give you six weeks to respond when we notify . If this committee agrees with that amendment. I take the point that you're suggesting that another group may have re- considered it's position. No I think Mr I'll decide when the Can I, can I say something? I think three weeks has worked quite well, we've had no troubles with it. They've had plenty of reason to, to mar put up a marker in the three weeks and we've spent the next three or four weeks after that discussing it. And therefore why should we change it? And it has worked, so let's leave it alone, if it doesn , if it's not broken why mend it? Miss . Well, if it's not broken, why on earth should six weeks be such a problem? You know, I mean, if if I don't see why giving a little more time for consultation should cause any problems of any kind. Those in favour of, of my motion please show those against that is carried. Twenty-five two c,old rectory, minute seventeen, Aye. Those in, I'll move the recommendation of seventeen paragraph one. Those in favour please say aye. Aye. Those against that is carried. Twenty-five two d, members allowances for meetings of the South-West county farms authority, recommended to approve attendance travelling and subsistence, Mr group, and travelling and subsistence only when he takes duties on behalf of that group. Mr . Thank you Chairman. Erm, we we talked about this sort of issue earlier on, in in relationship to the, to the R A D. Erm, I'm not quite sure of the strong importance of that organisation to the council, but I am sure that this erm, committee was set up by a number of south west authorities who are trying to look at the future of county farms. And I think that er, Mr was chosen because of his extensive knowledge of the subject. And I think if, and I know it was agreed at group leaders meeting, that if we could find a way that Mr could be paid these erm, allowances, it would be important to allow him to pursue the work which is being done on that committee, and I would hope that we might all agree to the recommendation, and that is when he's on the steering group, it's attendance erm, full attendance and er travelling, but on the others, travelling and subsistence. I think it's difficult to actually find that it's attendance on the sub-group. But I mean that, it is expensive to keep going to London and places like that, I think he should be reimbursed for it. I thought that's what I moved actually, that he I didn't move it, I'm agreeing with what you did Chairman. All right, thank you. Those in favour please say aye. Aye. And against that is carried. If somebody gets on that list, do they get substitution from personnel, or do they . See the reference to regular members of the personnel sub-committee. It does require that, unlike other committees, the er officers need to be clear who our regular members of personnel sub actually are. . Chair, can I ju give the, I'm sorry I thought you'd already passed the motion, the Labour group names are , and . Yeah well, we got halfway through the vote. Those in favour please say aye. Aye. Those against that is carried. Mr . Twenty-seven, which is on your main agenda paper, I move to appoint Mrs erm, as shown to the Trust. Those in favour please say aye. Aye. And the against carried. Twenty-eight, the report of the county archivist move Could I just say sir, this is the re report which is, is made er each year to this committee, to inform the committee of of the work, and I hope members are pleased with the er wide range and volume work which has been carried out, and note in particular the involvement of this service with the public, and the er pleasure of the public and those have made donations, the fact that over eight thousand people have visited, and the number of people who've erm received lectures and have benefitted from that. And I hope that members appreciate as I say, the range and scale of work, which is that, you will also have seen that they've been able to open now one evening a week, and for a very small service with a budget of about three hundred and fifty thousand pounds, erm they are doing sterling work. I hope members will add their endorsements to what is in the conclusion there, erm, for the work of the staff who've achieved this. Members will see at paragraph eight, how the dep er office compares with the national average,we are well, well below that, and I think this is a very good service indeed er, county council, which is not just value for money, that that's too glib, but actually provides an excellent service,with within those limited constraints. Mr . Thank you Mr Chairman. I'm always worried when we get to item twenty-eight at this time of the year, and somebody rushes through and doesn't actually say anything about this. Well, I'm pleased to hear you have. I think too often, the county archivist and the records office are forgotten and left to do their very worthwhile work over there without very much appreciation of what they do from members. It it's a part of the county council I've always taken a considerable interest in, and I support them in all their efforts. It's an excellent report. It shows how well we are conducting the service, in what is an old bedding factory, after all, and if you've been to Winchester lately, you will have seen a six million pound record office, with with modern architecture in a prominent position in Winchester, er, which I'm sure they're conducting a service, but I'll bet you that pound for pound we're giving a far better service in Wiltshire, with our dedicated staff, who've been there a long time. And I would, over the last few years, I've I've suggested that members visit and see the work of the county record office. It was a great disappointment to me that when having set it up with an invitation couple or three years ago, about three members turned up, and I think that was very regrettable. The work is most fascinating, the the records they hold are quite er large and erm, I'm pleased to say that on their request, the Conservative group have have given the records of our group meetings since nineteen sixty to nineteen eighty-six to to the, erm, record office, and before anyone rushes over, there is a, a, a slight before they're released to the public. But that will be after the demise of the Wiltshire County Council. I wouldn't want to embarrass those that are here now, with anything that's in there. But er, also i I'm currently compl er getting together the records of my old company that go back to eighteen seventy-nine, and I've been instrumental in getting one or two of the governing bodies to get their records in. They do an excellent job, members should take a little more interest and go and see what they do. Yes, I'm not certain whether Liberal group records go back beyond nineteen eighty-one, but erm, I I und unders I I'm not certain that they were particularly group organised, but er, certainly I shall be looking forward to deposit a large number of files there from our group. Just to get them out of the house . Mrs . Thank you very much. Erm, I would like to propose, I'm not sure correct form, that we minute this council's support and appreciation for the work of the county archivist, rather than just note the report. Well only just to really, actually all Mr Mr has er said, and just one other bit of information, the time when the Chairman of the council extended the invitation to sixth formers, looking for alternative entertainment for the sixth formers of school, after they sat through a full council, I took them over to the er archivists er department, and we saw the paper restor , sorry, shouldn't say paper restorer, manuscript restorer at work, and these sixth formers, already knew of the existence, one of them asked to see the records of parish, because he knew they were there, and I mean, I think this is wonderful, that the sixth formers already, er children are being taught about the ar the records, and they will want to be sure that we kept them, and I think it's our moral duty to keep er, the records of the past for future generations. I hope you'll support my, whatever you call it, proposal to minute our appreciation. Thank you. Mr . Thank you very much Mr Chairman. I would like to second Mrs 's motion. Away from the county council I am, myself, very interested in, in industrial archaeology, local history and particularly the history of of Wiltshire parishes, particular reference to west Wiltshire. So I did really enjoy reading this report, a well written report, and for me well received, and I offer my congratulations for it. Erm, I haven't yet visited the archivist department, but they can expect me, ooh. They can expect me as er as I say but probably, for me, one of the more interesting papers on the whole agenda today. Thank you very much for it. Mr . Thank you Chair. Erm, I think that this erm, part of the agenda is most interesting because I think it's other departments which also report back to the policy resources, which really, we as a erm, council don't get much chance to see it's doing. I remember when my mum and dad were on this committee, actually the this records department is part of the Libraries' erm, committee's responsibility,records sub used to be there, and used to regularly meet and that used to deal with it. Erm, I've endorsed the comments that've been made I think the er congratulations, and can I say I've got a sneaking feeling originally, this paper was put on the agenda to embarrass me so that the records department can get the new shelves I originally blocked. But I have passed it now. Mr Thank you. Erm, the report is extremely valuable, the work of the archive service is extremely valuable. It's not only about archives and the past. We are today, creating history and those documents will go into the archives. It is a creative process, not a past process and something which is just stored away and lost and kept for the future. It is something creative, it's about today, it's about tomorrow, because those patterns go forward to tomorrow. It is an extremely valuable service, and one which tends to get left behind. But it is one of our most valuable, and we should do everything that we can to support it. Right, Mr . Thank you Chairman. Yes, like many of the others, I happen to be one of the ones who did go up there and take a look at it, erm, at the time, and I hope that the motion as er, not only to the county archivist but all the staff over there for the very hard work and diligent work of which they put in. I saw, and I have had in actual fact, recourse to actually use that service over there, and it's rather interesting if one can t to say that er in the particular village which I er represent, they actually came up, when I asked a certain question, they gave me a, a, far more than what I actually asked for at the time, but found out who the first village constable was, and I think myself that er, that service over there , it deserves every praise it gets heaped on it. Thank you sir. Mrs . Th thank you very much. I very much echo all that's been said, and I'm very pleased to hear what Mr Mr sa said. I very clearly remember being at the records panel when I er er first arrived, and seeing erm Mr reaction when it was a a member of the party to my right which re , said well, as we have financial problems and as, as we have these documents, why can't they be photocopied and we'll sell sell them off. And there was a shiver through the meeting. Erm, but the point that I really wanted to make slightly mischievous, but the point I really want to make is that I am very concerned indeed about the future of the, of this service er in the re-organisation of the councils, and I really feel this is something we need to keep very much in mind in short to ensure that this valuable record is er is maintained. Hear, hear. Thank you, Mr . Thank you Chairman. Erm, I too endorse the er views expressed by other members, but I think it's also worth commenting on the work that, and contribution that's made of voluntary, by by volunteers to the work of the archivist, which is referred to in the report. I'm sure many members will have been sorry to have noted the erm, the thefts of materials and one hopes that security cameras has now in fact been er installed, and if not, why not? Erm, and I think it's also perhaps right that we should note with pleasure the comment made in the third paragraph on the second page, about the work of Mr and Mr , er, I think that does rec er, give some recognition to erm, er the role that the archivist's are playing in the wider community, and I think that is extremely er commendable and I think we should send our congratulations from this committee er, and our support for what they're doing. Mr . Er, thank you Mr Chairman. Erm, I fully support all the comments about the archive system, I have a membership ticket here, and I was a member of that system long before I came here. I would fully support all of the good work that is done and I would wish it to continue. Thank you. Right, so the motion is to note the report and to express our appreciation and support for the work of the county archivist. Yes? And his staff. And his staff. Those in favour please show. Aye. And the against. That is carried. Item twenty-nine, A D C conference on community safety. I move to take no action on this matter. Aye, aye. Those in favour, any against? Right, now main agenda, where we're being informed of a planning and environment committee's concern at the conversion of county council owned residential accommodation to other uses, and I did suggest a briefing, but I don't think anybody . Erm, I will move to note the concern of the planning and environment committee, and to ask the officers to ensure that when planning applications are submitted, for the conversion of county council owned residential accommodation to other uses, that, the matter be not determined until the policy and resources committee has been consulted. Second. In other words we get consulted so we get a chance to comment on the planning application when it's made. Can I just comment I think on the process, what happens is, is that in fact the application is made by the director of property services, we don't now have a first resolution or a second resolution. I think it would be when the committee comes to the director of property services and says, we would like this to happen, that's when we'd have to come to you before the application Only, to say that I I I would be opposed because I believe you should delegate to committees to run their affairs and their resources in the way they want to. And in this sort of instance, I mean Tidworth, with the, with bringing in of North Tidworth it's important that we do have extra accommodation, the police are doing it within their, within their remit. I, I can't see why we've got to have all this sort of thing, coming back to policy. But obviously Mr is about to tell me why. With pleasure. Too often now, in the last four years in planning committee, time and time again, we get applications from departments, and most of them coming from the police authority, for changing residential accommodation to other uses. We believe it is morally wrong to be taking away residential accommodation, when there are so many people homeless in our society, and we should do something about it. And time and time again the planning officers, and Mr said, this is not the right form to do it, we are a planning authority and it is a decision that has to be taken by the service committee. Over the last four years we have consistently moaned, we have passed resolutions at planning, asking committees to consider, and nothing has been done. And that is why we are now taking this direct route of saying, that policy and resources, as the policy making body of this council, should have some input to make sure that we in the planning committee are not the situation on a planning application when instead we deal with the moral issue of turning away people who need homes. Yeah actually, I'd be interested if someone sitting on the planning committee, or perhaps a director erm, yeah or perhaps you could tell me, er, why why if the planning committee members are so concerned about this, did they grant the planning permission? Right, erm, Mr can answer that one. Well when, when you are looking at a planning application, Mr Chairman, you can only look at planning matters. Er, the matter which I am sure all of us in this committee are concerned with, is the principle involved, and the principle behind the letting. That is something the planning committee can't look at. Er, and I think that the way, that the way that er erm, er Councillor has mo ,th th the proposal that Councillor er, has moved is a sensible way around. You will note er, that the erm, planning and environment committee were concerned at the conversion of county owned residential accommodation, and we decided to inform the policy and resources committee of our concern. This is the right way around, and erm, Councillor 's motion addresses that particular question. Mr . Yes Chairman. I I w would like to point out, whether or not we are going to continue to delegate degrees of authority to our service committees, or whether we're going to over-rule that and say, oh no, only P and R ultimately full council will be able to take any decisions. Now recently a colleague of mine er, that comes from an area where I grew up, and heaven forbid, that I heard the news that Esher has become Liberal, but Oh,Labour but the particular council which is Elmbridge District Council, started off after last year's victory by the Liberal Democrats, by moving to one full council meeting a week, lasting about six hours once a week. The chairman then went to the extent of scrapping every committee, and having three full council meetings a week, on the grounds that every member should consider every issue. Now is this a suggestion the thin end of the wedge, that we now start taking away the authority of our service committees to decide what they want to do, and have to pass it back up the line for decisions to be made, because quite frankly, I don't want to come down here five days a week, ten hours a day for full council meetings. Well, I I was hoping we could, we could avoid discussing the activities of too many District and London Borough Councils for that matter, such as Westminster today, erm, but erm, there are certainly some very fine London Borough Councils. I, I don't think we're taking away the Planning and Environment Committee's delegated powers, we're merely trying to ensure the policy and resources committee is consulted on proposals for conversion of residential accommodation, for the, oh I will say the moral reasons that Mr outlined, I wouldn't really disagree with what he said. Mrs Miss . Yes, I mean it, erm, Mr is quite right, and I'm very surprised at the length of time,I'm not sure if he's still in on planning, but he's certainly been on and off it a lot, erm, hasn't worked it out yet. Erm, this is part of the legacy of the unspeakable , who changed the presumption to be in favour of development. Erm, and therefore, that Planning Committee erm, basically has to vote in favour of development, unless there are over-riding planning reasons why they should not. And unfortunately concern about homeless is not a planning issue. It is not considered relevant, however important it is in normal human terms, in planning terms it is non-existent. Therefore, the only committee which can over-ride it, is this one. But it's not taking away the erm, power of the planning committee on any other matter whatsoever. I don't see any problem with this as a former chairman of planning, and I don't think any other one would. Right, those in favour of motion please show and the against that is carried. Item thirty-one, er Mr Excuse me Chair. Thank you. Try that again. Thank you chair, can I just say er, I think that the motion outlines in it's first two erm paragraphs the actual benefits of having a direct service organisation to this county. It says, that not only does it save it's money when it comes to when we're putting in the tender bids, but actually the profits it makes goes back into the County Council, it has a two- prong saving of averages to this council, and we've known and seen in the years that it's been running that money has come back into county council balances, which means that we can have more money to spend on other services. I think that, and I know that members from the D S O board, many members excuse me, er agreed that there seems a need to be a more positive approach taken to save the schools and other organisations within the county council network, when considering erm, the uses of the D S O, the advantages that that has not only on the county council, but them as an individual school, college or whatever. I know the colleges are out now. Erm, for them, because it means that the county council, when they are making a profit, D S O makes a profit has more money to spend on education, which will improve the standard of our schools in this county. And therefore the schools should remember this when looking into going for other options, which may mean there's very little difference between them and the D S O, and the fact that th that the profits made by the D S O will be lost if they haven't got that contract, and I think that's a very important point that they should take on, and I think a lot of schools miss out on that particular idea. I know one other thing that is important, is the fact that a marketing document, the need for a marketing document, which can go to non erm schools, I think erm, brought this up, the need to promote the value of the D S O overall. The last part of the resolution is it's actually taking up the area, where at the present time we haven't got a D S O. It seems stupid that you go into a school and you can clean, clean their classrooms, cut their grass and look after their, do their grounds maintenance, cook the kids' dinners, but you can't do any minor repairs, you've got to call in another organisation. Now there may be a legitimate reason why the D S O does not see there is a role to be carried out. And that is why we're asking for officers to form a report on whether or not a small building maintenance team should be set up to be able to carry out that work. I think it should go to the D S O board to be able to look into, and then come back to policy and resources. I think that is a, there is a need to look into this, it is an area where we haven't looked into at the moment, and when you consider the valuable work that our staff in the D S O organisation does, and the profit it makes for this county council, and the savings it makes for the county council, it would be sensible for us to also look into building maintenance as well. Thank you. Erm, I think, oh there are several speakers, Mr 's next. Chairman I shall leave it to others on this site to make the case if they wish er, against the recommendations. My concern is on the first page, the grammatical errors in the Cor I, er I mean it sticks out like a sore thumb, and one would have expected that this paper came from education. But if people if people can't recognise possessive pronoun in that the it's is short for it is, er, somebody ought to check it because it, it lets the whole thing down. Yes Mr , I made that very point . Mr . Thank you Mr Chairman. Like you I am a member of the managing board for the D S O. Erm, and erm, like you I'm sure that erm, you would like to repeat your words, that you said then about heralding this report and it's successes and reminding the members and th of the public, and members of this county council the real benefits from maintaining erm, our D S O and from the erm the way in which it has been managed and the way in which the amalgamation is working there. I really do feel that erm it's a success that should be , it should be, we should make the most of it, we should public it, publicise it, erm, wherever we can. Whether it be in schools, town halls, public libraries or whatever. And I would support all what Mr said in that. In regards to of this motion, I don't really have a great deal of trouble with that at all. Erm it's only just asking us to have a look at an idea which has banded to us once or twice, erm, we can have a look to see if erm, we can erm, have an in-house building maintenance, to develop the amalgama the amalgamation a little bit further than what we have already, erm, it won't harm harm us to have a look, so I've got no real trouble with that at all. Thank you. Thank you, Mr . Thank you Chairman. Erm, my fear of this report is that we are actually erm, it shows to me a certain level of complacency. And, and I I think we're in danger of being complacent over the D S O. Now I have over many years been involved with the D S O, and er, and I I support their efforts. But, times are moving on, local government review is just round the corner, and erm, we see that grant maintained schools of course are coming along. They're not actually erm, using the D S O, and I've just been involved in the I've just been involved in the selection of caterers for erm, South Wilts Grammar School, and I've got to say, and I've told Mr this, because he criticised me, Concept Catering weren't in the le in the frame. Their presentation was appalling, their attitude wasn't much better, and the presentation from the other companies was superb, one in particular, erm, came and really gave a good presentation. That isn't only that school. Most schools that have gone grant maintained have declined to use the D S O. Now my concern is, erm that we're not actually, when we come and compare with the outside world, we're not actually giving the service that we may think we are. Er, and that's of some concern, because I don't want to see the D S O diminish in that way. In th , and this is not a school who's decided to set it face against the county council, and it's services. And Mr will know, that in fact we've employed quite a few of his services and other services of the county council. We went in with an open mind, but I have to be honest, the presentation was so abysmal, that there was no way that we could in fact continue with them, and we have the same problem with the cleaning contract. In another school, which is er, locally managed, we are I think about the only school in the county who have decided to employ our own caretaker and our own cleaners, and, and in fact the latitude that gives us, has really allowed us to do a lot more in that school, erm with the staff and the staff are happier. So, those may be exceptions, but don't lets run away with how marvellous everything in it is. We have lost contracts, the D er, the grounds maintenance section have lost two major contracts in Wiltshire to other companies. Those other companies, one of them Thamesdown, I see Mr smiling away up there, because Thamesdown won the one up there, and broke his one in the one in the south. There were troubles to start with, but you ask any of the schools in the south whether they want Direct Services back, and most of them will say, thank you we'll keep , we're very pleased with them. So let, let's just, there'll always be arguments over this, I know. Lets lets not be too euphoric about it. On the building maintenance side, it has been looked at several times in the past. I think the time has probably passed now, all the schools have got their own budgets, they've got their own builders who are giving them a good service, and I doubt whether this is the time to resurrect that, especially with local government review not far off, and the future of a county-wide D S O in some doubt, when it comes to local government review. I think I ought to just come in there because, erm, I don't know to what degree it's appropriate to discuss erm, the er, some of the background details to the letting of contracts in public, but perhaps it's alright. Because I can agree to some degree with what Mr has said. I've been and watched and contributed to some degree, erm or at least in listening to the reports of governors at the school, erm, in the allocation of some of their contracts, which of course include some being let under L M S and some being let under G M S, with regard to building and cleaning, they were very disappointed with the presentation that the D S O gave, and even though the D S O was eight thousand pounds less than the competing bidder, O C S, they gave the contract to O C S, and a report has had to be made to the district auditor to give their reasons. Now it is totally true, that the start of that O C S contract was a disaster, and it is also true that several months on, the pay of the cleaners is still not being correctly done, and concerns are being raised in the governors, it's a four years contract, being an L M S contract, and under G M S they are submitting one year contracts. On the other side of the coin, the grounds maintenance service is very highly rated at and we have this interesting shared contr cu campus with Sheldon, where I think the District Council D S O is cutting Sheldon's grass, and the County Council D S O have been cutting and you'll be able to walk along the divide and see which looks better I suppose, after a bit. But I certainly think that with regard to Concept Catering, the merger did not come s , could almost, didn't come soon enough, because we needed to turn Concept Catering, from a school meals organisation into a catering organisation, and give it stronger management and a better lead and a better appreciation of what it means to be customer oriented. And now, particularly the point about making D S O's customer oriented, I have stressed again and again, both privately to Mr and Mr , and also at the D S O managing board, and I think public session. Er, so, there is undoubtedly a lot of work still to be done in making the D S O competitive, as for building maintenance work, I'm not certain we've ever considered having a building maintenance D S O. We may have looked at it in the days before D S Os, but that's er, a long time ago, and it's certainly worth having a look. Er, Mr . Thank you Mr Chairman. As you've said before, you know I'm a privatisation man, er, and I think that comes down to number three, if we privatised the lot and pushed them further out, if they felt there was a need to do building maintenance they could do it. It's only while they stay so in-house as a D S O, that we have to be so careful about what we do and what we don't. And I think we have got to let them compete competitively with the private sector, we've got to push them further out. And that is why, as Mr said, I think they ought to be allowed to produce some sort of advertising pamphlet, and get their act together, because if they're going to go and compete out there they've got to be prepared for it, and we've got to allow them to give a decent presentation, at least have a decent glossy brochure to push round, so at least they can say what they do, because they will never compete when they are privatised unless they get it. Mr . Thank you Chairman. I have to admit to being somewhat encouraged by er some of the comments that have been made here. I mean, I do think we need to er recognise that tremendous efforts are being put in by the individuals employed by the D S Os, but I do think that we need to recognise also, that there is a lot lacking in the, particularly the marketing of the services. Er, I'm involved with a school at the moment that in fact has just put Concept Catering out. Erm, and the reports that I've had back from the governors was that Concept Catering was so, so absolutely certain that they were the only people who could do it, that when they were faced with competition, they hadn't got the faintest idea how to respond to it. And er, the competing package, which incidentally I have to tell you were the D S Os own staff who decided to do their own management buyout, er, of the service. They have cut the price, er of meals charged to the children, they've er made some adjustments o c , to the menus offered, which was what the parents wanted, and as a result they've actually increased the take-up of school meals by something like sixty percent. And that's the D S O's own staff buying out th the service from under under Concept Catering. So I do think that the, I don't think it actually does necessarily come down to glossy brochures, but I think it is a management attitude erm, in terms of mark developing a very much more pro-active marketing approach to going out and competing aggressively in the market place for the contracts. I'm absolutely certain that once you've got the people there, once you've got the contracts in place, the er, the people employed will deliver a high quality service. But unfortunately, they are not getting the opportunity because of er some of the management failings means that they're not actually getting the contracts to which they're entitled. Mr . Very briefly Chair, to say I think nothing's perfect, as I said, I mean there are areas that still need to be improved, and I think our, the image and in a sense our marketing section does need to be improved, and I think no-one would deny that. But the figures are quite clear that there are benefits of having in-house erm erm, fields that can compete against the private sector for county council work, and the fear, and the reason why they were set up in the first place, to make sure that you couldn't have outside erm, er or private organisations setting up cartels to basically screw the local government down, and charge whatever price they want and con us through and through. With local, with in-house teams it means that we are protected from that ever happening, and I hope that our in-house teams will continue to go on and on from strength to strength,valuable resource to the county council. And can I just say, a governing body that I am on, I've just recently gone on to, employs private cleaning contractors, it didn't want the D S O, and ever since that contract has come in, they have been in terrible, terrible trouble. Right, those in favour of the motion circulated please show those against that is carried. Item thirty- two Aye. Those in favour please say aye. Aye. And the against I will move that that is approved for purposes of members travelling and subsistence those in favour please say aye. Aye. Those against that is carried. recommendation of one two three on the letter Ca can I query the accuracy first of all, of that report? As I understand, it is not I think what I voted for in number three, that specifically the county secretary and solicitor should inform a member of authority. I don't think we said who should inform them. I don't think we actually said who was going to inform the member authorities. We actually said we should, we, the body corporate should, erm, I have some, I if, if it should be the county secretary, I believe it should be in consultation with the county supplies officer. That's the only point I'm taki making. I understood, I think it should be in consultation with the county supplies officer, because I think it is important that that he also has ownership of that letter which goes to the fellow p our fellow members at resource. Yes, I mean I would like to support what Mr is saying. In fact erm, what we agreed yesterday was one on this paper, two and three followed from it, erm, but were not actually moved, at the working party, because it was me who did the moving. Erm, and er, they are necessary but they are not actually what we agreed. So I think we have to do them, but I think it is very important that we do not erm, er talk to the, or communicate with the other member authorities in a way that looks as if this is Wiltshire saying, well we want to find a way of flogging off this asset without worrying about what happens to the future of the service. Erm, it's very important that we find a joint way forward to make sure that whatever the future of local government is in this county, there is an effi effective and efficient purchasing erm, er service me who did the moving. Erm, and . Mr Thank you Chair. Can I just move a slight amendment to the erm, Well then I will move one and I will move Mr 's wording for three, and on two basically delete that the money should come from the identified savings made in the Chief Executive's department. It has the same effect Chair. I have to say that when Mr was there, he didn't mention one single word about a supplementary revenue estimate, did he? He didn't mention what it would cost, and we actually said, we hope by today he would Chairman come back with how much the the consultant would be. I'm agreeably surprised to see it's three thousand, I hope we're getting the quality of advice that is necessary for such a large organisation. Erm, I think it's important that we find, wherever that three thousand comes from, it's important we find it. This is a critical issue, because local government review is coming up fast. The other members of the consortium are worried about what's going to happen, and if we do if we do leave it to later on Chairman, the, we have every danger that the consortium will not be a core activity of the new authorities, it will end up in the residual body, and be, and just be sold. And I think what we're doing here, is is getting ahead of that, and trying to look to the future of the consortium. It's important we do it. If there are savings, identified savings in the Chief Executives department, I'm sure that that from those to this should be the way forward, but er, I'm happy to second what Mr said, erm, with th and that is in three with the addition of in consultation with the county supplies officer. Right, that's the motion passed by Mr seconded by Mr . Thank you Chair, as the chair of that meeting yesterday, I was wondering if I was at the same committee as this m these minutes came from, because when I read the minutes two and three, I certainly didn't remember us passing those. So first of all I would call in today the accuracy of the minutes, because as far as the revenue, supplementary revenue estimate was concerned, no figure was mentioned. In fact Mr did then say, where do we think we're going to get the money from? My comment was, I'm certain that by tomorrow afternoon, Mr you will have found somewhere from your little niche,that you will find the money for it. And that was the comment that was made. No question was asked, of how you raise the supplementary estimate for this, and You would find the money, and that was left to that. And through request to the county solicitor, it was again Mr quite rightly said, it was said we would, and we as a corporate body, i e the county council, and the C P D. And I would go along with the the er proposition. Mr . Chair, I'm just going to join Mr in in objecting to the supplementary estimate. I don't think there's any need for it, and there are substantial erm underspendings in the Chief Executives department already, if he wishes to spend it out of that. I would suggest even that since there is a surplus in C P D,of over a million pounds, that er, they are perfectly capable of funding their own studies. But, perhaps the intention is that er, they don't fund it, that it's funded by the county council, but certainly I don't think this committee should be approving a supplementary estimate. I don't think it's necessary in any circumstance. Mr Were you moving a ? Basically, I did s , well if you want a technically but I've said it comes out of the er, identified savings of the Chief Executive's department as already ma er made. Right ladies and gentlemen, we will no will now continue. Erm Mr ,? Sir, I don't know whether this would be a convenient moment, but I have taken instructions on the the Oh yes, quite. the which er was raised er Yes. and also raised by your colleague erm with regard to the decisions of the Parish Council. Yes. Sir, reference to my appendix number five makes it clear that there was some lack of knowledge er by those in the village er round about June nineteen ninety two as to what was going on in Ryedale with regard to the site north of Skelton. And you will see there as appendix five Yes. a copy of a letter from the Chief Planning Officer of Ryedale, to Yes. Mr who is on my right, and who was previously the chairman of the Southern Area Planning Committee of Ryedale District Council, but not at that time,which explains that erm a change was in hand. Yes. And the Parish Council was thereupon alerted to this fact and held a meeting on the seventeenth of July nineteen ninety two,the relevant part of the minute of which reads as follows. It is minute number fifteen. Yes. The council oppose proposed changes relating to amendment of the greenbelt plan by excluding two fields on the northwestern edge of the village from the greenbelt. The council felt the proposed inset boundary of the village should remain as published in the original consultation and proposals documents , and that in itself indicates, sir, a minor degree of confusion, sir. The Parish Council even at that stage was not fully aware of the situation. They were referring to the deposit copy. should remain as published in the original documents, and were surprised at the proposed changes raised at the eleventh hour prior to a public enquiry, in September nineteen ninety two. The original proposed boundary of the greenbelt was tightly drawn against properties in the village, and the proposed changes are inconsistent with this. Also, the proposed changes would intrude upon the Skelton conservation area . That sir is the end of that minute. Yes, right. Thank you. Could we have copies of the minute, do you think ? Er w you wish to have a copy of the whole document sir ? No. Right. Well not necessarily but if copies could be made of that page . Yes . Yes. Thank you very much . I'm still a little bit in the dark. I'd like to read read the minute . Yes. Right. Erm perhaps we can leave it till I have read it then and Yes. Right. then if there's anything more to be said I'll I'll say it then. Yes, right, thank you very much. Right thank you. Mr , do you have any questions? Sir, I adopt the cross examination . Right, thank you very much. Right, well we'll move on then please. Mr Ward. Thank you very much sir. I'll call Mrs then to present Yes, thank you. the County's evidence. Thank you very much. Erm Yes. Yes please. Mrs , I'll ask you if you would please to read the summary of your proof of evidence from document N Y Two Three Seven. Objections to the deposit plan have been received concerning two adjoining sites at the northern end of Skelton, topic area D thirty nine which is a paddock, and topic area D forty which is a small field between the paddock and the A Nineteen. In respect of D thirty nine, the objection is that the paddock should be included within the greenbelt. The objections to D forty are that the field should be excluded from the greenbelt. Could I say at this stage,i is anybody having difficulty hearing at the back? C could I suggest firstly you move forward to the front row er on both sides, because th there's little point in er asking Mrs to speak louder if . Thank you. Move closer to the public rather than further away from them. In April nineteen ninety two, the County Council reassessed the greenbelt boundary around Skelton and resolved to propose a change to exclude topic area D forty from the greenbelt. Two objections have been received to the proposed change. Obje objection site D thirty nine extends to some one point two five hectares and is bounded on three sides by hedgerows, trees and tracks, and on the south side by the boundary with existing property . Objection site D forty is an area of grassland that is that is split in two by a post and rail fence. It extends to some one point four hectares. Hedges and trees mark three of the boundaries, with the southern boundary being a post and rail fence along Church Lane in the curtilage of . The County Council considers that the two sites do not fulfil any greenbelt purpose. In the County Council's opinion, the northern boundary of the site, which comprises variously a line of trees, hedge and track, effectively acts as a screen between the site and the open agricultural land to the north, and can adequately prevent any sprawl of the village or encroachment onto the open agricultural land, and will not therefore prejudice the special character of York. None of the other greenbelt purposes are relevant to these sites. The deposit plan greenbelt boundary and amended , is a well-defined durable boundary, and is therefore an appropriate boundary. The County Council has noted that noted the representation that the greenbelt boundary around Skelton should follow the edge of the built-up area for its entirety. However, the County Council takes the view that the objection sites do not fulfil any greenbelt purposes, and should not, therefore, be included in the greenbelt, whereas elsewhere around Skelton, any relaxation of the boundary would result in encroachment into the open countryside, to the detriment of the greenbelt. The objectors have raised various development control issues concerning the site. While the County Council has noted these points, it does not consider that they are relevant to the definition of greenbelt boundaries. For the reasons outlined above the County Council remains of the opinion that the two sites to the north of Skelton should be excluded from the greenbelt and included within the Skelton village inset. Thank you Mrs . Thank you very much. Mr ,. Mrs ,you attach considerable importance to the physical characteristics of boundaries, don't you? drawing of greenbelt boundaries, attention should be paid to ensure that the greenbelt boundaries are enduring. To that extent, they should follow physical features on the ground. And when you have looked at Skelton as a whole,you have concluded,apparently, from your paragraph seven point seven,that any relaxation of the greenbelt boundary elsewhere around Skelton would result in an unwarranted extension of the built-up area, contrary to the objectives of the York greenbelt. For what reason do you believe that a relaxation, as you put it, of the greenbelt boundary from the deposit copy to the line you now propose, north of this important village, would not do so? In as much that er in the County Council's opinion these two s these two paddock, fields, whatever you call them, to the north of Skelton are visually more related to the village, whereas the other land around Skelton is clearly open agricultural land and therefore forms part of the open countryside around Skelton. Am I to believe from that that you regard the characteristics of the open countryside around Skelton as being more important for greenbelt purposes and the contribution to York than the land within the boundary you now propose? But the purpose of the of the greenbelt is to prevent encroachment into the open countryside. As I have just said we don' the County Council does not consider that these two fields form part of the open countryside around Skelton. Are you not by adopting that view, Mrs , abandoning the concept of the importance of the character of Skelton in relation to the setting of historic York? Not at all. I expect that the paddock in particular contributes to the character of Skelton, and inclusion in the conservation area. However, these two sites are more part of the character of Skelton, and their inclusion or exclusion from the er inclusion in the greenbelt wouldn't add any further to the character of Skelton and this part of the area . Development of this land would detract from the character of Skelton wouldn't it? That may be. What then is your primary reason for reducing the safeguard against development which greenbelt protection affords, bearing in mind that Skelton is a village of considerable character? Well,the purpose of the County Council is to draw up a greenbelt local plan, and therefore it is a question of whether or not the sites fulfil or do not fulfil a greenbelt purpose. The County Council is not concerned with the future uses of the land . How do you square that view with the view of your colleague that the whole of the village of Flaxton performed a greenbelt purpose? Sorry, I'm not aware of Flaxton. I mean Flaxton's beyond the six-mile limit for the greenbelt. I'm not quite sure what you're talking about . Could you keep your voice up please Mrs ? I I'm having difficulties and I'm sure those at the back are . Sorry, it's cos I'm turning this . Well if if you aim for the microphone , not because of if i any importance it has, but simply because in that way the centre of the room. Mrs , the primary purpose of the York greenbelt is to have an effect on the character of historic York, is it not? It is to protect the historic character of York. And That's one of the purposes, yes, And it has And it has has it not been admitted in at least one of your background documents that the character of the settlements round York have a part to play in that? Yes, in our document N Y Two which sets out the objectives of the York greenbelt in more detail. Erm it is the character of the s setting of the villages withi er within their rural hinterland which is part of the character that contributes to the character of York. And therefore it's not just a question of protecting the open countryside round the village? It is the protecting the character or the setting of the village within its rural hinterland. Is that setting greatly affected by the incidence of hedges and fields? Part of the character, obviously, is going to be the land use er er the land the land use and the features within the land. Any land. The question surely is whether land is open country, not whether that open country is bisected by a boundary, a good hedge or a good line of trees, which would undoubtedly be a suitable greenbelt boundary. Surely the question is whether the land on each side of it has the same greenbelt function, or different greenbelt functions? Well I've er as I've previously said, in the County Council's opinion, these two fields do not perform a greenbelt function, they are visually and physically separate from the open agricultural land both to the north and to the west of the sites. Visually and physically. I will therefore put to you a hypothetical question. Would the contribution which they make relative to each other be altered were the characteristics of the boundary between them less marked, no trees, no substantial hedge? The character you By that you mean the character the boundary The contribution that links the two? Yes. Would the contribution made by this land on either side of this boundary you now propose, be altered were there in fact no marked physical boundary between them? In terms of their greenbelt function,the the the the boundary between them has no effect on the greenbelt purposes . It is the boundaries to the north alongside the A Nineteen. It follows therefore, does it not, that one has to look at the characteristics of the land you now propose to take out of the greenbelt, in the same way as the land immediately to the north, which you propose should remain . In as much to decide whether or not these sites have a greenbelt function. It's it's not the boundary that is important to look at, it's whether the land is open land, isn't it? It's whether the land fulfils a greenbelt function. Open land doesn't necessarily mean that it should be in the greenbelt. That does not necessarily follow. And the land to the north does form a greenbelt perform a greenbelt function?is that Yes. so? Yes. The land that you're now proposing to take out does not. That is correct. Despite the fact that both are open land. Well as I've just said, open land does not necessarily mean that it serves a greenbelt purpose. Nonetheless, you draw this distinction, despite the fact that the characteristic of both those areas is the characteristic of openness. Yes, but th in the County Council's opinion these two sites are more visually related to the character or of Skelton village, where the land quite clearly agricultural land and unrelated to these three fields. When you answered the question a moment ago about the importance of the boundary, the size of it and so on, you indicated that it was not . I indicated that the boundary between the two sites was not important in determining whether or not Or in the County Council's opinion had no effect for the determination of whether or not these sites played a greenbelt function. You know that I do not necessarily go along with your concept of visual character in the way that you use it, but would the visual character be altered in a way that would cause a coincidence of greenbelt function were that important hedge not in existence on the north side of D thirty nine? . If there were no hedge, let us say, on the north side of D thirty nine, would the visual character to which you have just made reference be altered ? Well it's very difficult to say what the because presumably the character of the paddock would have changed and the character of the conservation area likewise and it may well be that the use of that site wouldn't be a paddock. It's difficult to be to comment on a hypothetical situation. It may the removal of that hedgerow may not just may have other knock-on effects. I'm not entirely clear about your answer. Let me put it another way. Is it your view that the area known as D thirty nine ceases to be part of the open country just because a hedgerow and some trees obscure the view from it across more open country? That is one The boundary to the north of these two sites is a very firm distinct feature, and very . It effectively cuts off the land the open agricultural land from these two fields and therefore visually it makes the paddock more part of Skelton Village. You are, are you not If you took it away I I it would be difficult to say quite how it would affect . You are therefore uprating the importance of this hedge and er trees very greatly are you not? You are giving them higher importance than the character of the ancient part of Skelton. But the trees are there. Tha a they add to that they are part of the character of that area. And because they are there, the risk of development taking place in this conservation area at some future date should, willy-nilly, be allowed to be increased? Which it would not if the trees and the hedge were not there. Is that your case? Well as I've said it's difficult to comment different situation the physical features are different. Because it may well be that that land wouldn't be considered being part of the conservation area. But trees and hedgerows are part of the open country, they are an essential feature of the English countryside as we have in the known it are they not? Yes, they are part of the features of the o open countryside, but in this particular case the proximity of Skelton Village to that boundary and the juxtaposition of the of the of the houses around that area and the er other features make this paddock part and the adjoining part of the more visually part of the village. Mr , . Sorry. I was just going to say,I think Mrs Mrs 's really a answered the question as far as she's able to do. Yes. There is one further concept sir which er Mrs has obviously developed er which is a new concept and it is contained in her paragraph eight point four. Mrs , you state that Open land does not necessarily mean open countryside . This is very interesting. Would you please elaborate? Well it means exactly what it says. You don't wish to elaborate for us? You could have you could have open land within within a village, it doesn't necessarily mean it's open countryside. Are you referring, for instance, Mrs , to the football ground, which I notice is in the village? Mm. I was commenting in response to the objector's proof in this particular case . I was just taking that as a working example of the concept which you're putting forward,. Yes, I mean I'm saying that there's obviously open land within built-up areas. That doesn't necessarily follow that it is open countryside. For example the land at Skelton Hall could be regarded as open land but no one is suggesting that that should be part of the greenbelt. But your Council does admit that D thirty nine and D forty are open in character? In as much as there are no buildings on them, yes,. They're open in Yes. They're open in character because they are not part of the built-up area of Skelton. They're open in character because they're not built upon. Yes, exactly. You mentioned that permission has been refused erm in connection with development on D thirty nine on four occasions by Ryedale. Is your Council in full agreement with the attitude behind those refusals? The County Council as I'm aware was not actually consulted on these particular applications, and therefore I'm not really in a position to be able to comment as what the County Council's position . . Thank you Mrs . ? No thank you very much sir. Well I think Can I just clarify Mrs the position as far as the Council is concerned? If I understand it correctly, the inset for Skelton is made not because of any question of Policy E Ten, but to recognize the existence of a substantial built-up area, which in the County Council's opinion er does not cannot perform a greenbelt function. Is that correct? That's correct, yes. And therefore, in the County Council's erm opinion, the test which I need to adopt when I go to the site again, is to look at it and er simply make a decision as to whether or not in my opinion the land is more properly a part of this built-up area which cannot perform a greenbelt function, or is a part of the general extent of greenbelt around there, and therefore by definition performs a greenbelt function. That's right. Well you've set me a relatively straightforward test if that is the test. Thank you . Mrs , just just er a point. Going along the road, er on the A Nineteen, from the north towards er the village er if one assumed that there were to be some development on site D forty, would you be able to see it from the road? Well as you approach the site from D er from north on the A Nineteen, you can catch glimpses of and also of the houses to the south of Church Lane, and therefore any further development on that site would be seen against the existing backdrop of . by the vegetation . That's right.. Yes. Does it make does it matter that the land is elevated above the road, above the A Nineteen? This site is elevated above the road. It may just mean that you might see Er I mean is elevated above the A Nineteen, and indeed you can catch glimpses of it But the site itself . There i there is a gentle Yes slope, Yes. level That's right. Yeah. But the screening along the A Nineteen is particularly dense. Right, thank you very much Mrs . Sir, while Mr Yes. is taking his seat, I'm causing to be handed out this plan. It's merely a larger er larger plan showing how the settlement sits er within the surrounding field network and field pattern . Right ,thank you. Thank you. Thank you very much. A as it is simply er an ordnance sheet, I I assume there's no need to give it er a document number? I do I don't believe so sir. Thank you. Right, thank you very much. . Yes, Mr , would you read your summary please? The objection sites are located on the northern side of Skelton Village. They consist of a horse paddock and rough grassland,three point four hectares,point five one acres, and are bounded generally by trees, hedgerows and rear gardens of residential properties. The objectors object on the grounds that the village of Skelton should be washed-over by the greenbelt, that the site should be identified as greenbelt, and therefore it should be excluded from the built inset, and that the development of the site would have an adverse impact on the surrounding area . The District Council have not addressed the issue of washing-over the village of Skelton within the greenbelt as this is a new issue not raised by . The District Council considers that the objection sites do not perform any of the greenbelt functions. The District Council also considers that the northern, western western boundaries of the sites, which comprise a line of trees, hedge, and track, are appropriate, well-defined, and defensible greenbelt boundaries which separate the site from the open countryside beyond it. The District Council considers that the noninclusion of the sites in the greenbelt is because they do not perform a greenbelt function, and not an indication that the sites are suitable for development, particularly as sufficient housing land has been identified in Local Plan . The District Council considers that the sites may have a role to play in the long-term strategic land reserve, although at this stage as no calculations have been carried out as to the requirements it is difficult to assess what role they might play. Furthermore the amount of white land identified in the Local Plan is a measure of whether land performs a greenbelt function, and not simply a long-term strategic land reserve. The District Council considers that many of the object remaining objections are not greenbelt issues, although they have taken the opportunity as follows. That any future development of the sites would not be subject to normal planning controls cause detriment to the conservation area, local listed buildings, or the archaeology and natural history of the sites. The traffic impact of any development could be accommodated without serious detriment to the surrounding area,but although the above constraints are not seen as insurmountable, they may well act as a deterrent to development. The noninclusion of the sites in the greenbelt does not constitute policy of Southern Ryedale the greenbelt, and that the views of those who have not contributed previously should not be addressed. For the above reasons, the District Council pleads that the two sites north of Church Lane Skelton should be excluded from the greenbelt, and i included in the inset . Yes. Remain there remain there please. Thank you, Mr please. Mr , in these shifting grounds that we perceive around us as a result of the deliberations of your authority and North Yorkshire County Council, it is difficult, is it not, always to be sure of the reasons which have caused the changes in view? You say that the District Council believes that the two sites to the north of Church Lane Skelton should be excluded from the greenbelt and included in the inset for the village. The case for the objectors is that they would wish the boundary proposed by your own authority, at an earlier stage, to be the boundary. Now the words that the two sites should be within the greenbelt, Mr , a momentous change. Well I think it's inevitable that er during the local plan process that erm that changes do occur. The reason for for local plan consultation is such that erm it gives the opportunity for objectors to make comments and otherwise, and that District Council and the the County Council erm should consider er objections and it's i it it happens that erm the local authorities you know can change their mind as the process goes along. And they take account of comments, do they? That's true. It was at the very next stage wasn't it that you had this switch from a boundary which we could accept to one which we profoundly could not accept? Was that as the result of comments? Er as far as I'm aware, it was, yes. Could you explain the reason then behind your council's change of view? Well in the in the final analysis of the of the er the er considerations of these two sites the er area of Ske Skelton in general, erm it was considered that they that they did not perform a greenbelt function. Did you search around for any other reasons, such as the mention of a possible strategic reserve? I think that er I think the question of a strategic reserve erm falls er as secondary to the to the fact that the the land or the sites do not perform a greenbelt function. I've said in in in evidence that er in my evidence that erm that the sites may have a a role to play. But that wasn't the reason for for f identifying the sites as white land. It was principally because they didn't perform a greenbelt function. Whereas previously you thought they did? That was presumably the District Council's view at that time, yes. What was your own view? Well it's difficult for me to say because I wasn't involved with the at that time. Most convenient for you. How can you be sure that any future development of these sites would not have a deleterious effect on the conservation area, the listed buildings, the archaeology and the natural history? Well it's not impossible that er that that developments er can take place erm without erm without having some effects , but what what I'm basically saying is that erm it it er it wouldn't be a serious effect acceptable in normal planning terms. And you have great shortage of I'm sorry ,o o one moment. I think there was an extra Wasn't there a a negative in that sentence which crept in unnecessarily? Could could you just say it again, Mr ? I I you said, It's not impossible. I don't think you meant that did you? Can you just sa Just say it again and let me see if I've got it I've got it right. Yes. Erm I personally sir did not detect any double negative there. Erm I think Maybe . Mr , er I as so far as I got ,Not impossible for development to occur with these constraints . It's not impossible for development to take place even with these constraints. Yes. Yes That's what you Yes. I don't know whether that's precisely what you said, but that's what the intention was . Yes. I suggest that that is the meaning I got, Mr . It is a matter of degree isn't it Mr ? There is a possibility then. You think that there's equally a possibility that damage might be minimized? Yes. How great is your need for additional building land at Skelton? As I said in m in my proof, er sufficient land has been identified in the in the Local Plan period. It is not We're not proposing that these sites should be allocated for development. Has your Council determined any policy with regard to the period after two thousand and six, in relation to the current plan? In terms of. In terms of building development. We haven't, no we haven't we As I said, no calculations have been carried out . Do sites exist elsewhere in your area Mr that are not so encumbered about by ancient history, natural history, conservation areas,which might equally form a strategic reserve for your undefined post-two thousand and six requirement? There may be. Then why do you plump for one which has these impediments? To look at it from that point of view. Well as I've s as I've said earlier, erm what we're basically saying is that because these erm sites do not perform a greenbelt function and er they then fall into a white land situation, that that white land is a is an area of land that becomes er at the end of the plan period in two thousand and six, er they are areas which could be considered development. But you're looking at this from an inset point of view aren't you? You have gone along with the County Council,they want to move what they conceive to be an inset boundary. I dispute that . It's an inset problem, and therefore one is looking inevitably at the reasons for which you can moved an inset boundary, supposing that one already exists, which it doesn't, but let us suppose it does. The reasons for moving are relevant. Well the question as far as inset er is concerned, we've we've already touched on this morning and I believe it was discussed yesterday. Erm the decision to inset the village of Skelton erm has ha h has been taken by the authority,the er the consideration and assessment of where the boundaries of the inset should lie erm is what we're considering today. Yes, and the move is proposed to include land which is not at present built on. That's true yeah. And the reason permitted reason under Policy E Ten, the oldest statutory policy governing the movement of boundaries of insets, is the existence of a need for that . Well I think I I think you're getting into the into the wrong argument . However, you do recognize that Policy E Ten and its requirement for proof of need is important in regard to the boundaries of insets? Well I I . Have you pushed out a boundary from the point of view of strategic requirements after two thousand and six anywhere else in your area? Not that I'm aware of, no. So Skelton is immensely favoured, looked at from your point of view? It's a other sites erm w would come into consideration at that at that time erm in the long term . It's not been the principle er reason for for excluding sites from the greenbelt. You say, Mr , that the constraints to which I've already referred may well act as a deterrent er to potential developers? That's true. Do you think it would be a good idea to privatize planning control in the sense of letting it be up to developers to choose whether they should go ahead or not on the basis of what they conceive to be constraints, or that that should be within the entire realm of the local planning authority? I was simply making a comment at your your suggestions about the likelihood of development of the site. Er Mr , I I I have many matter to consider in my report, so I let's not widen it even further into this rather wider philosophical matter. Certainly sir. There is however one er overriding point here Mr . That is, you recognize, do you not, that greenbelt protection includes the concept of the initial negative presumption that is not contained in any other area of planning ? . Thank you very much. . Yes, can I just be clear er Mr . You say as I understand it that er the possible er use of this land as a strategic reserve is not the main reason er for excluding it from the greenbelt. Is it a reason? Did it form any part of the Council's ? I would think not. Well, I I need to be sure on this. Er are you saying that it is any part of the Council's case that this land th it it's it is er a possibility that having this land as a strategic reserve er can er is of assistance, or are you saying that it is simply er having included it in, it might form part of a strategic reserve? Er er er two rather different approaches . Yes,. I asked Mrs a question about the appropriate approach that I should make to this site in her opinion. I don't know if you I hope you remember that question, it was rather a long one. I hope you remember even more her answer to it, because the question is,Do you agree with it? I think you'll have to re have to repeat the question . Oh dear. . Right, let me see if I can get it the same. I do recall something of it now, but I can't details. Well, the point was as I recollect it, er that my understanding as far as the County Council's case was concerned, was that er the village was not inset for E Ten purposes, it was inset to recognize what the County perceived as the physical reality of this being a substantial built-up area which fulfilled no greenbelt functions. And the the question before them, and therefore before me in r considering the objections, is whether or not these sites are part of the general extent of greenbelt around the village, or are a part of this village er which does not as a whole perform a greenbelt function, and that's what I'm looking at when I make my site visit. Yes. I'm sure that wasn't the same wording . but I hope it was the the gist of it, and I'm sure someone will correct me if I've got it wrong. Er i i i er Now do you agree with Mrs 's answer ? Yes , I do. Good. Right I've got no questions for you Mr , thank you very much. Case for the District, sir. Thank you very much. . Currently sir erm I I do propose Mrs . Yes. sir, firstly because there is a slight divergence on matters of approach, and secondly sir to deal with the factual matters. Right. What what I propose not to do is to ask Mrs to read her summary. Right. C can I just be clear though er Mr . If er Mr or I wish to ask questions on the original proof or about what what the witness is telling you,. Mrs , first of all can I invite you to look at your appendix number five? Er sir these are matters which arise out of the questions you last asked . Mrs , what the local authority excluding D thirty nine and D forty of course is a matter for them. Can you assist us on the approach which you have adopted in terms not only of greenbelt function, but of the need for a strategic reserve? Yes. Er the the basis of the erm objection er and erm justify long-term development needs not just in total, but by recognizing making a major contribution to total land use but also . Erm that was the the written basis of the objection. Erm it's also clear from correspondence I had meetings with officers of both councils following those objections, erm at which we talked specifically about the greenbelt functions of this . So both items were certainly er lodged. Yes. Both both aspects were lodged. I can't say you know where the balance erm council authority . Er and can we in fact see your views as to the strategic reserve set out fully on page two of that particular ? Yes. yes in that they're ex expanding . Thank you. The second matter I wi wish to raise with you a arises out of Mr 's appendix two,and in particular paragraph twelve. Right. Could you just give us a moment to find that? Of course yes. Thank you. Appendix two, paragraph twelve. it's the inspector's letter of September nineteen ninety . Yes, right. Thank you. We know from the appearances that you were present at that enquiry . I did. If we then look at paragraph five, that's the first page of appendix two,we see here The appeal site has a long planning history. It lies within an area designated as planning permission since nineteen sixty four . Yes. I don't know whether it would be helpful, sir, if Mrs could indicate on the plan recently handed in to you Yes. where that nineteen sixty four planning permission Right. lies. Erm That would be helpful. Perha perhaps if I the appeal site wedge with the erm intending to build a road through it. The nineteen sixty four application . . Er let me just say that aloud . haven't got the plan in What has just been pointed out to me is that the er smaller site, that is the one with Oakwood on it, which I'm sure is familiar to er anybody present, that's just opposite Skelton Manor and Court, and the larger site was the land to the east of Oakwood incorporating this much larger pond w with what appears to be an island in it, er running right up to the boundary of the conservation area, I think. Yes. Yes. Yes. Now bearing those those facts in mind, can we look at what paragraph twelve tells us? Several local objections state that the planning applications for the dwelling at the northern end of the site and the Council implied that they would they would reconsider applications which site. Just pausing there for a moment, can you point out to Mr Inspector where that er building was to be developed,Mrs ? Yes, the the erm A as I've just explained, the the appeal site on that occasion was the the smaller enclosure, Yes. erm now now including Oakwood. The Council at before the enquiry and during the enquiry erm suggested that a better site for the development would be within erm the larger earlier site, erm specifically at the extrusion the northern corner or northeasterly corner, where I erm where I've marked . Er just be just below the track? Yes. Er is that it? Yes. Yes. Yes. Right right in right in the top corner, erm the furthest possible point away from the village. And paragraph twelve, erm towards the the middle, erm you can see the sentence in paragraph twelve To my mind, these sites , which were in that top corner lie well beyond the present I'm so sorry . C before we just Sorry interrupt. Just so that we can get the erm that sentence in context. That that was what was being put forward by the planning authority, then in the next sentence we have Most of the suggested sites are included in the conservation area in the village, and are separated from the built-up part of the village . That's sites in the plural. Yes. Again, where were they? Er along the northern boundary. Er in in the in the vicinity of the corner that I've marked with a star. A a and then we have the sentence which you were just reading. Can you read it out again? Yes. To my mind, these sites lie well beyond the present built-up limits of Skelton, and land to the east, north, and west has a strongly rural character. Er in i in the light of your understanding of where those particular sites the objection sites were, how do you interpret that sentence? Well th th I I'm I'm quite clear in my mind that the areas that the Inspector was considering then were areas beyond the track, to the north of the , outside even the greenbelt boundary presently proposed by the two councils . . I I'm not clear still. He he says he he mentions three directions, east, north and west. West would appear to suggest D thirty nine. . I I see. it's the usual problem whe when the site is not aligned with the points of the compass. . That's right sir. It's a problem everyone writing decision letters finds, and erm it does seem to be a problem. Well first can I can I say this. The the erm a great deal of time at that enquiry was taken up with the alternative sites proposed by the Council erm and their suitability in relation to the . And we were looking at how this top corner of the map related to the surrounding that those those erm reference points east north and west do relate to the open land outside of that . Thank you. Thank you very much . Mr please. Mrs , would you be so kind as to ? Yes. So that was indeed an location. It was suggested by the erm chairman of the then Southern Area Planning Committee. He wasn't giving evidence was he? He erm he wasn't giving evidence at the enquiry, but erm it was at his suggestion that I was asked to meet with the Chief Planning Officer prior to the to talk about alternative sites. And certainly, Mrs , D thirty nine is west of that site. And the inspector did mention west, didn't he? It's west of that site yes. It's a good a good long way west of the site which I've marked by a star . Yes. What importance do you attach, Mrs , to the observation of the District Council in relation to their erm District Development Plan which has for many years been used for development control, of the following text, which you quote in your paragraph three point six? In the case of Skelton O one moment please. Yes. Paragraph three point six of Mrs 's proof. In the case of Skelton, it has in the past ten years experienced significant residential development. It is not considered appropriate that Skelton should expand any further, and therefore it is included within the greenbelt. Now forgetting for a moment that last sentence which we're not concerned with just at this stage, would you agree with that conclusion of Ryedale District Council? It is it is it's a statement of fact that in the ten years preceding the time er when that comment was written, which was in the er mid-eightie mid-eighties, erm that had been the case, that's absolutely true. Erm whether And the District Council as you say clearly clearly considered it appropriate that it should not expand any further at that time. It's not a view that I particularly share but erm it was their view at the time. Would you have shared that view with them at that time? That It is not considered appropriate that Skelton should expand any further ? I can't answer that, because erm there's certainly nothing in the text of the plan to suggest why it was not considered appropriate, erm and I don't know erm I I can't instantly think what factors erm might have gone into that consideration. So I I don't I don't know what my answer would have been. Erm i it's a it's a very it's a very vague statement isn't it,It is not considered appropriate Skelton should should expand . Er er you deal with cases all round the York area. You would presumably have been aware that Skelton had undergone a tremendous expansion on its south side? It it's it's certainly er Yes it's certainly experienced . So let us look at the present day, and to take this wording, do you consider that it is now appropriate that Skelton should expand any further? I don't think I can answer the question in that form. Is it appropriate that it should expand? I I think there is certainly capacity erm for Skelton to expand, or I wouldn't be sitting here supporting erm the people I represent. Erm I think the the the two objection sites, D thirty nine and D forty, are suitable to a greater or lesser extent, physically suitable, for development. Whether Skelton needs to expand at the present moment is not for me to say. We're not saying, as you well know from my representations, we're not saying that these sites should be allocated for development now either in total or or in part, unless the Inspector feels that there is a shortage of housing land, that he needs to be looking for additional sites. What we're are saying is, There are the sites, they don't have the development constraints that I would to the extent erm that you believe erm they have, and Skelton and the two objection sites are very well located a whole range of service facilities and employment opportunities, and development on those sites would fit squarely within local plan policy. But I return to the point I make here, Mr , we're not saying that these sites should be allocated for development now, unless the Inspector . Two very comprehensive answers. Do you think that any other sites on the periphery of Skelton would allow for the requirement , however distant it may be, that you foresee, as well as or better than D thirty nine and D forty? No. And yet, other sites round Skelton might not have the same characteristics, with regard to environmental functions, in relation to the historic centre of Skelton, that these two have, mightn't they? That's possibly true. Erm proximity to areas of character isn't in itself a constraint to development. But in considering any possibility if development, would you agree Mrs that one must have regard to the suitability of one site versus another site in relation to damage which might be caused? Well I I refer you to the answer I've I've just given you. You're making an assumption that damage would be caused erm by the development of certain sites, and that it wouldn't be caused by the development of other sites. I don't accept that damage is inevitable. Would you be prepared to answer the question were it not related to Skelton? And if I were to put it, If you have an opportunity of two sites and the development of one is capable of causing damage to existing characteristics and the other is not, would you go for the the one which would not cause damage rather than the one which would, or would you willy-nilly plump for either? Well o well of course er one would go for the site which would erm, to follow your hypothetical question, not cause damage. The other sites erm or other site on the periphery of Skelton erm to which you drew my attention would have the potential if developed of causing a different sort of damage. Any any development has the potential to . I don't accept that is it necessary or even likely that it would that it would er The the damage which could occur by developing Skelton or expanding Skelton erm to the east or to the south would would be damage to to different aspects. Erm planning planning issues planning considerations. Erm so we do not erm immediately . Do you agree with the policy of the planning authorities that in general villages around York should not be expanded? That's a very sweeping statement. Yes it is. Er one has to exclude er for example, Strensall, where tremendous development is proposed. But as a general statement it has been made by the authorities. Do you agree with it? I I don't I don't agree with the the erm general proposition that erm the character of every village within six miles of York erm is an important element or component of the character of the city. I think that's far too sweeping a statement. But you know perfectly well that I support the new settlement strategy, and therefore in consequence I do support erm general limitations on the growth of settlements and expansion of settlements within the greenbelt. That's not to say that I I believe that the villages er some of the villages are incapable of of . Thank you, I am pleased to hear of your support for the principle of settlements which no doubt you'll agree with me would tend to safeguard settlements within the greenbelt. That's the the the very reason the new settlements strategy was accepted by the County Council after the County Council's initial opposition to it and their initial erm policy in favour of the substantial expansion of villages close to York. Indeed so Mrs . Now in your paragraph six point three you say It is not one of the functions of the York greenbelt to protect Skelton . It is however a function of Skelton to enhance the setting of York, isn't it? I I'm afraid I don't understand the question. Do you agree that the characteristics of Skelton as we have considered them this morning,make a contribution to the setting of the historic city of York? Very slightly. S I won't go into any attempt to quantify it, thank you. Have you any view Mrs as to the contribution which the road layout, the layout of the lanes, and the characteristics associated with those roads and lanes, make to the medieval centre of Skelton? Do I have any have any view? View as to the nature of the contribution made by the road layout to the characteristics of the centre of Skelton? The the the road network in the centre of the village erm is of historic origins. And the road network has dictated the pattern of development a around the roads,and that in turn has has helped to form the character of the village. So I I don't distinguish between the the buildings and the roads and say o one's important to the character and the other isn't. Nevertheless you do say, do you not, that it is reasonable for this enquiry to consider access to the site, to D thirty nine and D forty, in general terms? In indee indeed I do, because if the if I say to the Inspector that erm if he feels there is a need to identify additional areas for residential development near to York in the short term, then I need to tell him that there are no overriding constraints to the development of these sites. I put it to you that any alteration of Church Lane at any point between the A Nineteen and the centre of the village would be seriously detrimental to the existing character of that area. I don't agree with you. Erm the point that you put to me I think two or three questions ago wa was related as I understood it to the the alignment and the network of the lanes. Erm I accept that part of the character derives from the the wide verges, because that's reflect reflecting their physical appearance. Erm but in Their what? in large measure the character of the lanes erm or or the importance of the lanes is in their their pattern, their alignment, and the impact that that has had on the distribution of buildings and spaces along them. And I I don't see a limited widening of Church Lane to any access into either of these two sites, were that to be required by the Highway Authority,a as having any significant impact on the character of the village. Erm so at least you agree that some widening of Church Lane, at least as far as Spring Hill Lane if not further, would be necessary? No. Nothing like as far as Spring Hill Lane. Erm I think at at the at the very erm most it would be necessary to widen erm Church Lane as far as the western boundary of Spring Hill Farm. And as I've said in my evidence, erm we have had engineering drawings erm produced erm to demonstrate . You mean you'd bring that access in on that western boundary ? Yes. Yes. It it's an o it's an option. Yes ye yes, I realize these are options . it's an option that would work. No I understand all that yes . I d I . Erm I I me that that would have erm I believe very very limited erm a very limited impact on the village, Yes. and and no impact at all on on the central Mr has ve very vigorously explained his view that er you you can only inset for the purposes of E Ten. Wou would you go that far? If if I I think what I what I would like to say What what I think is that E Ten Erm it's very difficult to make this point, since it's an approved policy in an an approved structure plan, but I think E Ten's got it wrong. There've been several attempts to get E Ten right since nineteen eighty. Mm. But they've still got it wrong? Well I I I think that I think that's got to be right, because E Ten refers to where the need for development has been established, a nee a need for expansion's been established. Erm given that we're looking at a long-term greenbelt proposal and a comparatively relatively short-term Southern Ryedale Local Plan, erm I think it's very difficult to for anybody to establish a need now,i in the terms of implied under E Ten, which is going to perhaps erm not show itself erm for for twenty or twenty five years, in in terms of o of land allocation,la land requirement. Erm and I I just think th th the wording of policy E Ten is It it doesn't square with er national guidance for erm which requires areas to be left out of the greenbelt to provide for long-term development opportunities or development potential long-term development . Erm I've said previously in this enquiry that I don't agree with the County Council's erm notes on on E Ten, but really I I think that . Thank you. If anybody had any opportunity of getting E Ten right, it should be the Department which the Secretary of State to insert E Ten, because he is the highest authority in this . You're not asking me to to and there therefore therefore . merely to agree that the Secretary of State is always right. Right. Er I I'm sure he is but may not . Er sir, I I just have er one further point here. Eight point one four point four. Erm I'm much taken Mrs er by your reference to there being Lots of nooks and crannies where limited built development might go without causing harm to the character and setting of York . Mrs , finally, is this one of your nooks and crannies? No. Thank you. Sorry. I'll let you finish. That comment was made specifically in relation to the edge of the urban area of the city,a as I've . Mr ? I've no sir. . Oh yes, right. Er you say in your proof er Mrs that the site comprises two distinct parcels of land. Er are you referring there to the character of the land? Yes. Erm there appears . Yes. All of those? Yes. . and and from the the land beyond. Er site forty's simply ungrazed Yes. land ? Yes. Yes,. more and more . Yes. Right. Thank you. Erm as you travel up and down the A Nineteen,coming from the south er i er Skelton appears very well developed, Yes. quite close to the road. Coming from the north,er the appearance of the village is rather different I think because it is masked to an extent by the existing vegetation. That that's right. But the Yes. er you you made the the point erm earlier that the erm I think you said the objection site is higher than the Yes. site forty is higher than the road, which is which is perfectly true. Yes. But in fact parts of the village are higher than the road, and Yes, yes of course. it's always possible to see . Yes of course, yes yes. No I'm just trying to understand the implications of what might happen, supposing at some stage this land were developed . Right. So the site stands above the level of the road, and Yes. see whatever is on the site. This is correct? Yes. I thi I think Mrs mentioned the erm the the density of the existing vegetation along the A Nineteen Yes, yes. frontage . Yes , yes. Erm it's particularly dense as well along Yes. the northern boundary of of D forty, Yes. erm . Mm. But the the the corner, as as as you travel along the A Nineteen, the the corner, the the northwestern corner of of D forty Yes. and is very very heavily . Yes. Yes. And Obviously we'll be having a look at . And included within the site within within the joint site is the the belt of trees included poplar trees Yes. and also have a . Yes. Those poplar trees that actually occur on the boundary between D thirty nine and D forty,? That's right , yes. It but it's not just a row of poplar trees, it's it's quite a wide er mix . Yes, I see, yes. Yes. Right. . Yes, I'm not sure that I I'm going to at some stage. by a black line . . Oh yeah. Er yes, sorry. Sorry, yes. Right, thank you very much. No more questions Mrs , thank you. I I have only one point I would like to raise, Mrs , and this is whether or not er you are in a position to give me any comments er in relation to the er colony of Great Crested Newts in this pond. Or or is the only evidence before me that which er was given by Mr ? Erm I I I did this morning but I've handed it back to the District Council access to their newt report, which was referred to a couple of days ago. Erm I could perhaps get . If there's anything more which is going to ass er ass er assist me in understanding it, er I I I w would certainly find that helpful. I in particular, bearing in mind the point that er Mr i is making, that er newts seem to be as it were very choosy in where they er go, bearing in mind the existence of at least three other ponds in Skelton, I would like to know whe how er why it is or whether it is that newts are only found in this pond, and whether or not er the the survey has shown anything in either of er in any of the other ponds. But that is perhaps a matter which is best looked at er over lunch. Can I, before I adjourn the enquiry er for lunch, can I just raise one other matter which I would be grateful er for. I will raise it after consideration of er the Skelton issue er because it doesn't concern this in any way, but er I would like those concerned to consider the point. This concerns the question of written representations, er which I will be taking into account. As I'm sure er you are aware, many objections are being considered solely on written representation grounds. Er I asked before the enquiry, at the pre-enquiry meeting, that I should have such er any additional representations before the start of the enquiry. Inevitably, er that has not been entirely acceded to, and indeed to some extent er I can hardly be surprised as events move on during the course of the enquiry. However, it had been my intention, and still will be my intention unless I am persuaded very strongly to the contrary, that when I close the enquiry, which I hope will be next Wednesday, I will have in my hands all of the representations, that is to say, both any additional re representations by objectors and the Councils' replies, before I close the enquiry. The effect of that would be that I would receive no further written representations after that time. If either Council receive anything additional, it will be a matter for them to take them into account along with my report. My report will not take er th these into account. Now, bearing in mind the very short space of time between now and the close of the enquiry, I want to be sure that as far as objectors and the council are concerned, that this is a course of action which is both acceptable and practical as far as they are concerned. I don't want you to give me your answers now, I am as it were giving you the opportunity now, over lunch, to consider this matter. It concerns you I think Mrs , I believe you have a number of sites where you are acting for objectors where you wish to make er additional rep representations. If the course of action that I am suggesting and ind which is indeed consistent with the course of action I have been suggesting throughout this enquiry is to work, then I need I would suggest tomorrow is probably the absolute latest for me to get anything from you, and to give the Councils any opportunity whatsoever to make any reply to them. Certainly it would be most unsatisfactory if I was to get your comments on Wednesday, so that the Councils couldn't reply to them. That that would plainly simply not work. I think I've suggested the problem now, and now I'm going to leave the parties to think about would be a need for expansion, expansion involves built developm think I'll under the circumstances I'll give you er the the normal time, and I will adjourn now until two fifteen to have a chance to think about that. The enquiry's adjourned until two fifteen. it is now two fifteen I propose to continue. Er sir you raised a point about erm ponds a bit earlier, and I have obtained some That's right, yes information, That's right. er thanks to Mrs , er during the er luncheon recess. Er would you wish to hear that information? Good idea Mr . I was expecting that Mrs was going to tell us about it . You have the information then ? Er you you're thinking about ponds are you Mr ,n rather than newts are you?. Er I think that er er Triturus Crestatus and ponds er in our present consideration go together sir. Right, yes. Yes. Fine, thank you . And we must remember that we are not talking about any newts, we're talking about very special newts, Yes. the Great Crested, Yes. a protected species. Yes. Yes. And a moment ago I had in front of me the relevant paper. it's escaped me. .The erm the gist of it sir is that English Nature er carried out er last year a survey of ponds in this area, though we are not certain that they were able, owing to the exigences er created by the attitudes of certain landowners, er to erm investigate every pond in the area. I can however say that their conclusion with regard to the two other ponds at Skelton, which are mentioned in Ryedale policy E N V Eleven,that is to say the ponds near Wrights Manufactory and er that near the Barratt development , are apparently not found erm suitable er by the Great Crested Newt, and are inhabited largely by mallard. Erm I have already referred sir to the investigations which are proceeding with regard to the ability to erm, as it were, encourage er this er amphibian to go to other ponds, and I would again call your attention to the state of the knowledge we have at the present time, which is that that is not possible. Mr , does Mrs have anything to add Well i i i if we I think Mrs can er can assist. Could I just Right. recall her ? Yes, certainly, yes. It's alright, you can sit there Mrs , thank you. I I knew of the existence of this of this report went to the enquiry on this Tuesday by mistake, but I two You've read it? You've read it . two minutes ago. . Right. Erm and and that's why I thought I'd be more familiar with it. . Well I didn't know I'd got it . Well er no it's all right, we we've got it here now, so let's see what it has to say about it Mrs . Erm map one is a map of pond ponds surveyed in connection with the production of this report. Erm I don't know whether I haven't the erm Er just tell us what it says please. Er I I I Otherwise we're gonna have to go through the exercise you've been through of identifying the right ponds. It shows one two three four five six ponds er surveyed er in the area of Skelton. Erm two of the erm and it then in a table identifies Page twenty six? Yes, page twenty six. It lists two ponds erm in Skelton with erm a total estimated newt population of eighty. Which two ponds are they? Erm one at the Coach House and one at Church View. Er the Coach House one the one which we're talking about? Yes. Yes. Yes. And the other one sorry, was Church View? Church View. That that's somewhat towards the centre of the village. We we . The the report also erm interestingly erm said that two thirds of the ponds in the parish of Skelton were visited. Erm that's thirty one ponds. Virtually all of the rest remain unseen due to lack of permission. So erm if thirty one is two thirds,another fifteen or so ponds . There are some more ponds in in in erm Yes, yes,, that's fine. in Skelton. Er not all of them still existed, erm and three of the ponds, eleven o of the eleven ponds erm referred to in the erm three of them were in gardens.. These are ponds which contain newts, you say? The three ponds? Two of the garden ponds Great Crested Newts. And then there's a third pond where the report notes that Close access to Grange Farm was extremely difficult due to. So erm yes there are ponds in Skelton and erm two of them are . Yes, fine, thank you. Yes, thanks very much for that information. Yes, Mr ? Sir, I have found the note. Yes. There is just one further small item of information relating to the findings of English Nature. That I understand is that the lake at Skelton Hall is too deep to be found suitable by the Great Crested. Right, thank you very much. The only other question perhaps o on that one. Er Mrs , does the the pond within D thirty nine lie within er land owned by one of your various clients? Ye yes it it does, and I think I made this point in erm in my evidence that it lies at the extreme erm southeastern corner of the paddock erm and if if, This is making an assumption. On the assumption that newts spread out equally in all directions from the pond, erm part of their territory would be . Yes. The question I I have is quite a simple one, and that is I would like to actually see this pond slightly closer quarters than I've been able to. I've been round the whole periphery of D thirty nine er other than the southern side. Er is it possible for me to get closer? Yes. I I so I just go in to the paddock? Just go into into the paddock, yes. Wh where where is the entrance to ? That is that the entrance near the Coach House or or Yes. Ah. Thank you . . swimming. We've we've been issued with snorkel masks I should say . investigations so it will be quite thorough . I I can't I can't speak for th for the for the temper of the horses . Oh I see, oh well in that case w we we will view it .. from from the Coach House end, I think. It s it sounds safer. . Thank you . Thank you very much. Right, I think we move on then please. Mr , do you ? Yes sir. excuse me very briefly. Thank you. Sir, it's our submission and the evidence of what you have heard and what you will see, that the two sites proposed to be excluded from the greenbelt are functionally part of the village, and distinct from the land the open agricultural land to the north,and are visually a part of the village, unrelated to the open countryside to the north. Put another way sir, we say this. That when one approaches the village, in particular along the A Nineteen, which is the only public approach from the north, the objection sites read as part of the village and not part of the countryside. And there is a firm boundary between the objection sites and the countryside, in particular, the farm track to the north of D thirty nine. It follows, sir, in our submission, that neither of these sites performs a greenbelt function and therefore fall to be excluded from the greenbelt. To that extent sir, the submissions which we make are, I anticipate, common with those which will be made by both of the promoting authorities. Sir, if you do come to the view, however, that one or both of these sites may have some as it were residual greenbelt functions,then we ask you to bear in mind the matters raised, in particular Mrs 's appendix nine,about the need in the longer term, that is, beyond two thousand and six in particular , for a strategic reserve. And that is a matter sir which we invite you to weigh, if but only if, you come to the conclusion that these sites may have some greenbelt function. Sir, to that extent er er my case is additional to that of the promoting . Sir, the other matters which have been raised by Mr are essentially issues of development control,unrelated to the issues of greenbelt function. They sir will be considered, or may be considered, by the authority, but if they are sir, it will be in the context of concrete proposals and in the context of a forum which is appropriate to their discussion. And sir,a local plan enquiry, particularly where there is no specific allocation made, is not an appropriate forum to apply development control policies to a wholly unformulated proposal. Sir the mistake which underlies that part of Mr 's submission is a very common one ,and it is the assumption that greenbelt is, as it were, the residual category to prevent development which one might, for non-greenbelt reasons, not wish to see. For all those reasons sir, we invite you to report that these two fields should not remain in the greenbelt. Sir, those are my submissions. May I add er a valediction, in the true sense of the word. Sir, this is the last day as I understand it of the greenbelt enquiry. Y er the last day at which the County will be formally represented, yes. Er sir to that extent it is the last day of the enquiry. It certainly is sir the last day on which I shall be appearing at either of these enquiries. Sir, may I in particular you sir, thank you for the unfailing good humour with which you have conducted this enquiry. A and also sir, the courtesy which you have always shown to . And I can also say sir, I think without fear of contradiction,that of the hundreds of enquiries that I have done, this is the only enquiry sir which will have la left a lasting impression. . . Thank you Mr . Thank you Mr . Mr please. Sir, I don't propose to add anything. You you've heard that er the case between ourselves and er my learned friend on the left Mr are identical save in the one additional matter which he noted, and it's and I adopt his closing submission. Thank you very much. Mr please? I've nothing further to add, thank you very much. Thank you very much. Mr then please. Sir, as has been known in other cases before you, there have been many but what remains is the most important aspect of the whole , namely your visit to Skelton. Because it is on that occasion that you will already have, and will on your final visit, have made up your mind as to the nature of the northern part of the village of Skelton,the nature of the land immediately surrounding it,whether it be a paddock, or a small field,whether it be more associated in the minds of some with the open country, or in the minds of others with the village. An area which is at present not built on, which is open,which has had greenbelt protection since nineteen eighty,which it is now proposed should no longer have it. Which it is recognized will thereby lose the benefit of the initial negative presumption unique in planning . Whereby the task of the local planning authority, and the onus is on them without the initial negative presumption, the task before the local planning authority in refusing permission is made that much more difficult. And why should this task be laid on them? Two reasons have been suggested to you sir. went so far as to almost in writing as part of the reasoning for the proposed change by Ryedale. And that is a nebulous strategic reserve. No mention in the Greater York Study, no mention in any plan before us of what this reserve might be required for, or where it might be located. Only here has . Let's call it that. Sir, I invite you attach no importance at all to that ridiculous concept in relation to this highly important piece of land. And sir the other strand which we've heard a good deal about has been the nature of the vegetative screen which occurs between D thirty nine and D forty on the one hand, and land to the north of it on the other. Sir it would be a sad day if we determined matters of er greenbelt boundaries on the basis of relative screening . Hedges and trees are a normal part of the countryside. I need say no more. There is no dispute that that boundary is capable of being a suitable greenbelt boundary. But I believe from the written evidence that there is equally no dispute that the boundary which has existed for ten years, the tight boundary, is also capable of being a suitable greenbelt boundary if indeed there is to be an inset. When I say existed for ten years, er I I did make a slight mistake in that for ten years erm the village . However the reference has been made to the characteristics of that boundary, and although the authorities would prefer the characteristics of the one which they now propose, they do not say that the characteristics of the tight boundary are ones which are unacceptable . And therefore we come back to the nature of the land in relation to the contribution it makes to the character of Skelton. And to the consideration which you have had in other cases regarding the character of villages and the acceptance that they preserve the special character of historic York. There must be no doubt as to that conclusion. Very recently we have regard to the wildlife. Reference has been made to the . Sir, the pond in D thirty nine has been shown to be a breeding place for the Great Crested Newt,but it is also known that it migrates to other ponds,several others, but does not necessarily breed there, but chooses at Skelton. Sir I believe that you should not overlook the view of the inspector relating to the planning application within the grounds of Skelton Hall, when he made reference to land west of the site concerned. I have no doubt myself that in the expansion of land to the west, er D thirty nine, and possibly D forty would , and I think that his comment that development should not extend so far north is relevant. If indeed, therefore, this land performs a significant function with regard to the character of Skelton,one should have regard to what the effect on that character would be if development were , development of any kind. And I have already given you my opinion. It would be catastrophic. Mention has been made as to the nonexistence of an allocation for housing and as to the suitability of this forum for consideration of the effect which would take place of development with or without the existing allocation. Sir, I see no difference. One can make one's assumptions about the effect of development on a particular piece of land on the basis of the best information available to one at one time. One does not necessarily need an outline or a full planning application in order to do so. I'm quite clear that I do not need either an outline or a planning application in order to arrive at my conclusion that the effect of any development on these sites would be deleterious to the historic character of Skelton. Sir I commend to you the expert evidence relating to the historic character and I hope sir when you visit this site, although it may look very different at this moment from the way it would have done had you been able to visit it after the originally scheduled date of this enquiry, when the daffodils were out, I did visit it that day . I'm so pleased. I'm so pleased. . I believe that in all seasons of the year one would find that it had a most delightful character,. Thank you very much Mr . Well that concludes consideration of the Skelton topics. I would like to turn before adjourning the enquiry today, to the question of the treatment of the remaining written representations. Mr ,? Erm sir, yes. I mean we certainly have views on this er and er you have er encouraged us to express them. Sir er you hinted that er if there are to be further written representations you'd be looking to directing a cutoff date, and you hinted at I think tomorrow as being one possibility sir,so that you could leave this enquiry on Wednesday with all the papers you need and receive nothing more by way of written representation, evidence or any other documentation whatsoever. I put the suggestion . Sir, we certainly would welcome a cutoff date tomorrow. We're not sure whether any further written representation or representations or evidence of any kind are going to arrive which might concern us, but we can't discount that possibility. But sir we do have some doubts as to whether we would be able to respond to any that should arrive at, let us say, five o'clock tomorrow afternoon, by,let us say, close of play on Wednesday. Sir, that that provides a very very tight timetable, and up up to now, the ordinary timetable has been we had two weeks to respond to objections. Sir, we would Er my suggestion would be that if tomorrow were the cutoff date, that we be given the ordinary two weeks in which to respond. And what we would do in those circumstances sir is if the late objections er the objections or representations that were to arrive er up to let us say five o'clock tomorrow, we would er deal with and then send on to you with copies to the objector of course. Th there's there are two other points I I'd like to raise. That's my suggestion i i i i in that case. Sir, should any additional representations be sent directly to you after the close of the enquiry, I I I for one don't know whether this would happen or not, but what are the administrative arrangements for dealing with that? Er you mean er from objectors ? From objectors. Well they they will not. They er they they should not be received by me. Any which are sent to er , which of course would be the only way in which I could be contacted, Yes. er would be returned to the appropriate Council. Er . I I would receive nothing . Then they would be returned to us sir, and then if appropriate they would be dealt with in the context er of your report and the of the report . It would be a matter for the Council concerned to decide in er itself what it wanted to do with them. I'm I'm very grateful for that information sir. Thank you. Mr .? Yes sir. All I can say is this. We would urge you very strongly to er put a deadline er on receipt of er further objections by tomorrow sir but some of these proofs have been missing all of the discussion and they are literally months past their original fixture date. If any are received erm by the cutoff date, then it has to be my my submission that we have to have a reasonable time to respond. You don't need reminding sir that er Ryedale Tuesday and Wednesday, and Wednesday is a very very busy last day. My officers just cannot deal with these late proofs in days. Erm sir what I can tell you is this. In relation to every matter in respect of which there is an outstanding written , we have just about now prepared a general proof. It's not a rebuttal, although one tries to anticipate what objectors will say. And you will have all of those documents before you leave on Wednesday. But I cannot, and I don't think you'd be right to expect my officers to prepare detailed rebuttals. Goodness knows what will be in these late proofs, they appear to be taking months to prepare. Er we have to have a reasonable time to respond. Two weeks would seem reasonable. Now I don't know of course who else may be er wishing to comment. It may well As far as I know it's it is only Mrs er who has said, I I'm sorry to er to say this Mrs , you are the only person who has said that you wish to produce additional representations. It could be others are keeping quiet about this, I don't know. They may they're likely to miss the date altogether . Er what is the situation as far as you are concerned? Yes erm they're not they're not add additional representations, they're not additional to anything that I've said we've heard during the enquiry. Er they are outstanding matters which are to be dealt with . Erm I hear exactly what Mr says,. Erm in my experience it's quite normal for erm a period after the close of the enquiry to be erm given to erm the planning authority or authorities to on other matters which are outstanding at the close of the enquiry, whether it's two weeks, whether it's whether it's very very common, it's it's reasonable that the authority should have that opportunity to . Erm for my own part, I don't know . Er I would certainly find it very difficult to get my remaining written submissions to erm by five o'clock tomorrow . What you are suggesting then is that the time should be extended from five o'clock Friday to five o'clock Monday, er but that er there should be a period of two weeks after that er to for whichever council or councils are going to respond, for them to make . I I I mak making a general point. I'm not necessarily in connection with anything I might it's it's very common practice in my experience which seems to me very reasonable. Erm,again in my experience the a any additional material usually runs from the close of the enquiry, and I'm well aware of of the turning up at the end of the enquiry . Can I put to you, Mrs , my problems as an inspector on this, and perhaps then you'll understand you know why it is that I am trying to get this er all written material before the end of the enquiry. And that is quite simply that I of course need to read all of these documents. That's is obvious. But having read them, it is first of all possible that I may have some queries on them. It is possible that there may be for instance some appalling typographical gremlin er has crept in to something so that something makes a nonsense. I am not in a position to query that once I adjourn the enquiry. Er something else may be a query because I don't understand the reasoning that is put forward. This can apply either to objectors or to the Council. Er i it is something which can always happen. The other possibility er is that having read it the site visit that I will have made, in any event, either already or or at some time during the latter part of next week, I may discover there is something which one of the parties points out which I haven't looked at because I didn't realize that it was relevant. And this causes me difficulties in that I have to either imagine what it was or come back again to see whatever the er item in question is. And you'll appreciate in all of these cases, there are administrative er difficulties involved. Yes I I I do indeed, and this has been a a a long enquiry. But but it it isn't the longest enquiry in this part of the world in in living memory . Erm yes it it's . I have myself been involved in a considerably longer local planning enquiry, Mrs , and er I certainly wish to learn from experiences there and elsewhere where problems over late documents have occurred. Er I agree it i it is something that er is hard to avoid. I'm anxious to avoid it if I can. It seems to me perhaps, under the circumstances, the furthe the best that I can do is to set off er up a er cutoff date for objectors of the end of this coming Monday. That at the very least gives me the opportunity er to at very least glance through, I don't know how long they're going to be of course, but at very least glance through them to see what I need to see, to see if there's any which is self-evidently requiring further comment, or further site visit, and er I can then give the Councils a further two weeks in which to respond to that. And er other than those responses, er other than whatever comes in er next Mon by next Monday, I will not consider . I will simply arrange for that to be sent to the Councils for them to take into account alongside, but not part of, my report. W would you be content with that? Yes, yes, I a I accept that I I fully accept that anything which is received from anybody after the responses after the end of the enquiry . Er I I I have your notice Mr er agreed. It seems to me that nothing really turns on the difference. Er if I'm going to give two weeks after anyway for the Councils, I don't really think it makes a great deal of difference whether it be Friday er afternoon or Monday afternoon. . Er are y are you content with that? Yes sir, I I wouldn't seek to dissuade you from that sir. Thank you. Mr ? Are you also happy with that arrangement? Happy might be the wrong word but I Er no. know when I'm beaten sir. . I'm grateful. . Well tha that that deals with er that point. Now, this is not the end of the enquiry. I still have at least two days, I hope it will be only two days longer next week, before the enquiry as a whole is closed. It is however the final formal appearance of the team who have been representing North Yorkshire County Council, and I wouldn't want this opportunity to slip without thanking them all, Mr , Mrs , and all of the others in their team who have spoken on behalf of the Council. You have thank you have helped Mr and myself very considerably er in this enquiry. You have been patient and you have worked hard, and I fear on many occasions late into the night I'm sure, you have proved adaptable and er you have been good-tempered. May I thank you very much for your assistance to us both during the course of this enquiry. I would also like to thank you, Mr , er for your attendance at various times, and Mrs likewise, as neither of you again will be returning . The enquiry Er sir before you do close the enquiry today sir, while we're in the thanksgiving mode, . Well, I I don't want to go through er er there is no need No, no, no I I there are two things that I would like to say on behalf of the County Council. Er one is er on behalf of the County Council, I would like to thank the two programme officers, Ian and . They have been extremely efficient and effective in carrying out their onerous tasks, and they've been of enormous assistance in ensuring the smooth running of this enquiry, and indeed it has run smoothly. And sir, both of you, both you sir, Mr and you sir, Mr , er I would like to thank you for the way in the way you have conducted this enquiry. You've extended courtesy, patience, and fair-mindedness to all, so that you've been a tribute to the enquiry process if I may say so. It's enabled us all to work and to conduct our cases in as an amiable atmosphere as the adversarial system allows, and we are grateful for that. We look forward to reading your report in due course. Thank you Mr . I will be adding my comments as far as the programme officers are concerned at the close of the enquiry. The enquiry itself is now adjourned until Tuesday the twenty seventh of this month, at ten o'clock. Thank you. Oh! Come on! What you doing? Leave it on like that. Put it on! So er what's for tea mum? Well er Can I have a bit more ? Wait a minute! I'm getting the thick stuff out of the bottle. Cheers. Oh that's ver very nice. Well you want the thick stuff don't you? No. Oh. I hate thick stuff mum. No you won't. Where's yours? Let's put on. Don't like it. Slaved over a hot stove for you. Have you ? Hot! So you got enough dad? Mhm. Ooh! Ooh! .What do you think of market research interviewer? Give over Christopher! Here, there's a serviette. Thank you mumsy. Mm? Say that again dad? What was the weather like round here today? Oh it was gorgeous! Mm. It was erm a bit cold. Freezing! Real cold. Mum, the spaghetti's horrible. It's all short and Get it down you! and yucky. And why's he got that? He doesn't like spaghetti. No wonder. And, that's a nice cardy mum. Shut up and eat your tea. Yes mother. Mm. Must we have slurping noises? Who me? You can't help it. Yeah. Shut up! You haven't got an excuse. How long does a tape last? Forty five minutes. Well, ninety. How much have you to record at once? Most of, you know. Well, what's to stop you recording forty five minutes now? What? What's to stop you recording forty five minutes now? Nothing. That's not what they want though is it? Yeah. They don't mind. I don't care, as long as I get my money. Better behave yourself else they won't swap it. What? Who you gonna vote for then dad? Er probably some party. Tell me dad. No, that's just one for the Conservatives if you do that. I'd like to do that, but you're just giving one to the Conservatives. No you're not. You're not. You are in a way. No it's to Labour you plonker! Mm? Liberals aren't gonna join up with erm Conservative. I know. You might vote for Conservative, but that's the Labour Party ? Mm? The Liberals'll join up with Labour if anyone. But what if Conservative need someone if they don't get a majority? What will happen then? Then Labour will get erm, will get a majority by joining with Liberal. Oh. By joining with the Lib oh I se oh well, well let them then. Do what you want but don't, and vote for your husband's . I will not. Think for myself thank you. You're not really gonna vote Paddy are you? Cor! Cor! Dad what will you vote for? Conservative. No! Oh you snob! You are a snob. I'm not! You're just common. Mm. Should make people compete for th whatever they want. Shouldn't just let flipping just work nothing, do nothing. It doesn't give them any incentive to work if you just have everything nationalized and well cos they know they're not gonna get sacked. No, the way things used to be was working very well thank you. It was crap! It wasn't as good a service all the services that are got better. That's a matter of opinion. Well look at British Telecom. Did you see what British Telecom's shares was yesterday dad? Went downhill. Very upsetting wasn't it? Mm. From ninety four and a half or something. You're not serious that they're going to go to nothing could always go down a hundred. Mm. That's good to know. Bought any more shares? We tell the shares I haven't any money. we saw the er Ninety four and a half, eh? Paid a pound and ten P for those! Mm. Mummy, you've hardly, hardly got any. I've got a hundred. Oh well, I've got three hundred and eighty. Eh you I, you! As soon as they reach a pound and twelve P, you sell them. But they won't go back up to that now. No. Put my money in a building I'll be able to have dad. society. Just in case Pardon? you forgot. No. Again? Yeah. Are they sixteen now? So? Well, you better . What d'ya say before mum? Mm mm? She said something completely weird. Can't remember now. Crikey! Oh I said I'd get more i more interest in the building society Well exactly on my money. It's only seven point nine. Have we brought out a higher account? No. No love. A higher interest account. It was eleven when we opened it wasn't it? Yep. The interest rate's come down. It means Gary doesn't have to pay as much on the mortgage. Oh well he can pay more and I'll have more interest. When we getting a new car? When my chauffeur What? What we getting? A Fiat Uno. A Rolls Royce. Yeah, I thought, I thought we both agreed on Lotus. You want a Fiat Uno? Ori Orion. Are you serious? The most unreliable Well cars in the whole world! I'm only kidding! Good. How the hell did Margaret get one of those? Not an Uno she's got, it's the one up. What, what's the name of it? Yeah, she's got an Uno! It isn't, it's It is! Tipo. No! It's not Well a Tipo, it's an Uno! it an Uno and we saw her last week wasn't it? The little one, no that was a Fiat one two six. Oh. Yes. Oh sorry. Well she's got an Uno. Oh I don't know what it is. It's a car anyway. Crap! Got four wheels and an engine and it goes. Yeah , and doesn't go. Oh hers has gone since she's had it. Well it goes very noisily and horribly. Lots of cars are noisy. Does she use it much? Or just running round the school? It depends what you call by using it much? Well I don't suppose she does more than about thirty miles a week in it. Oh I think she does more than that. Mm. Children go out to evening things. What? Dancing classes and such like. Mum, why don't you ever enrol me in those? Cos you, were rubbish. No I think we ought to What was the verdict? That's not bad. But there's not much in it, it's just crispy outside, they're empty inside. Half empty inside. Oh. Mm. Look! Thanks. What is it? Scampi. Urgh! Urgh! Or is scampi style. Well I, I just hope you're gonna eat all that. Never seen a scampi. Scampi . Mm. ? Not much. Not so crispy. Too hard. Get off! Wipe your chin! Shut up! Do you want to turn it off now? What? Don't matter. I won't bother doing the washing up bowl in the sink. About time somebody left the . Well I've had sufficient. A what? a dishwasher. Oh well that's not very nice is it? he does all the washing up and things. Mm mm. How you doing? Gonna sneeze. Ooh! Oh! You got spaghetti down your front. So? So? Well there's Neighbours in. Ah! Ah! It's Neighbours in three minutes. Come on, talk to me! Quick! Quick! Quick! And No. and erm erm erm I like your hair. Oh! Have you ever thought of getting ? In warm I might give my hair a wash. What? In warm water. The rest needs cutting. Yeah. Oh look at that pudding Chris. Which one? On there. It's a new one. What is it? .. Well I dunno, I just saw the filling. But Right. It's done now. So it's done? Mm. Okay. Okay. Do you want some? Yes please. I am quite fit. Not too much. Yes. Oh! Oh! Ooh! Got your got your foot in the way didn't you? Tt! Shut up! Are you going tonight? Yes. Er erm I want two I want two two erm thingies two Jaffa Cakes two ba box of Jaffa Cakes and Mini Cheddars then I'll have to wait a minute please have to wait again, and then a Coke er erm er er er erm doo doo . Is there a packet about ? No. No. Any more clothes? Mm? No! Why not? It's too expensive. It's not. Lasts me ages. Well, no. Can't afford them. I'm poor! So am I now. I'm a pauper! Ah ! Makes two of us. What doesn't taste Chips nice? No. Chips when they're overdone. Brown. Too brown. Yeah I know. So? Why? Oh! Not on the table ! Why? Oh no ! Oh! Don't ! Go on. I hate having my voice on tape ! I don't care! I hate my voice You did that being on tape ! Explain it . What a fucking ! Who? No I wanna say something, say something. Ah! I hate being taped! You have to say something now Rhiannon. You can't No! laughing I'm not saying it! laughing can't go into it. Shut up! What have you, what have you done today? You must have done something interesting? Er erm When you was out? No. I'll put the tape back on. I've been giving the milkman a blow job, you know, that sort of thing. That's all, I don't know . Are you on about there ? No, I'm just telling you what I've done today. Oh right. No I haven't done anything. Oi! I'm changing the subject! Well I . Oh. Gail's got glandular fever. Oh I've missed Harry Enfield. Oh I'm gonna miss Harry Enfield cos of you. Ah! Ah! Ah! Get it taped. I can't, our video's packed up. Ah! Ah! Well we could go down and watch it if you like. No it's alright. Oh no. I'll let you if you want. No it's alright. That's nasty! What? That. What? On about all blacks. You racist Oh yeah. git! That's not nasty, that's true . Tt. Pity all your bastards are blacks. And you won cos I haven't got a pin number. Mm mm. Oh dear, it's still ta it's still ta What? it's still taping. I don't like tapes, they're horrible. They're not. So? What are you up to? That. Oh fucking hell! What was I saying? I don't know. Er erm not too bad, it's going through to bad. I don't was is about school? It can't have been about school. Was it something you heard at school? Well I thought so. I can't think. That was the er er ooh! I love Benny Hill! I, I know! I just turned it up to stop . Eh? You was gonna have a fever. Ah! See you are now, I reckon your, you've got glandular fever. Right. Ah! I know what I was gonna do. I know what it was. It's to do with Anthony. I'll tell you Oh. later. Tell you about it Tell me later. It's just funny. Well it wasn't that funny. It's Oh dear! He, he's really cut up about poor old Alex. Oh, is it Alex? Why did I think it was Alex . whe I don't know who she was . Oh, what's she like? Dunno. I haven't seen her. I apparently walked straight past her, but I don't think she saw that. Like, he didn't point her out to me till I'd gone past her. See? Oh. But I . Oh yes. Ooh! Okay, so tell me, ooh my God! What have you done to your arm? Oh that was yesterday, when I was, when I was here. Oh, and they laughed co When you were laughing at me. Sorry! But it was worse before, after I had a shower it went down a bit, but it was really red and . Oh! Great! You make me feel so good about myself. guilty laughing at you. Oh thank you. Yeah but you , you didn't know I was in amazing pain though , I don't think. You know the No. Can yo howls didn't give it away. Oh go on oh go on, tell, tell me what was Anthony saying? on her face. She has not! Well Carl she hasn't got spots all over her face. She has not got very bad They are not noticeable. Oh no! That's make-up, make-up like that sticks . Oh well wanted to make a they have on the The same skin. There isn't Have you got any on that? No. Honestly? Honestly ! I haven't even bothered actually, I'm too tired. Who's that? But she But haven't you seen when they come and sort of turns the light sort of hits her face Oh that was ages ago! Oh! I saw her the other day. She has! Rubbish! She has ! It's true. She has not got bad skin. Aargh! Aargh! What was I was saying before . Oh oh! No, no. It's all you think about! It is not! It is! She has got bad spots. She's got really bad spots. She's got horrible spots. She has not. Still nice She has. though. She looks good. Oh! You're only looking at her body! Don't look Do not! Do ! I do not. I like a bit of dominant, you know standing up for people in my woman. You saying I don't? No. You saying I'm a passive person? No I'm not! A weak No! I'm not Chris. You're not. But something else as well. I can't think of one. That's . Yeah. Only going a bit, I'm not quite sure actually. going a bit. Hasn't got any er . Getting better. It's your tablets are o you know, working yet? You're doing well. Oh, if, if I haven't got, if I've got glandular fever will you go get a blood test? Will I go and get one? Yeah. Suppose so. I'll go to my nice doctor who won't he'll be nice and gentle. I'm supposed to go for one tomorrow actually but can't be bothered. Why were you supposed to go tomorrow? Just . You have to go before ten o'clock. Get it done cos they send you off at ten. How long's it take? About two seconds. No, how long's it take to know? Oh right. I think it's about a week or something. I dunno. Tha I'm not quite sure. It's so horrible though, they put this big band round your arm so this bone sticks out! Then they stick the needle in you and pull on the blood and it's disgusting! Well my bones stick out anyway. Mine don't. Look at that. Well do they like or do they stick, stick the thing round, round their arm Yeah. They have to. for the blood supply. They have to put a blood so, so that the bone sticks out, a bit more than that. ? I think. I dunno. Mine doesn't stick out enough. Oh that's sick! Oh yeah, what were you gonna tell me? It was about, I thought it was about how erm how erm Who brought it up? You did. Did! How much tape have you used up? About half of one side. I don't like tapes. I've got twenty tapes. But I don't have to fill them all. How many do you have to fill? As many as I can. Summat like that. How many have you filled already? None. Can I listen to the the bit that you've done? Er er well you can when I've finished this side. Oh well But it's dead boring. I dunno I haven't actually listened to it. Well go and turn the headphones off. It's attacking me. They're crap cos . And so I have done something from a plane. Cos my dad made mine. And they never gave them back. Oh dear. Okay I'll buy it. Absolutely amazing! Was it crap when you ? Excuse me, if you don't like it. You got a C D player? Yeah. Okay I'll I'll sell it for sixty. Sixty. It doesn't really take getting used to Led Zeppelin does it? It sort of has Ah! Ah! an impact on you. But Pink Floyd you gotta e you have with Pink Floyd. You listen to it the first time you don't like it and then after that then I hated it the first time. I thought, oh, it's too much special effects and Yeah. Yeah. That's right. You listen and you afterwards you think, oh it's brilliant! and then listen to it the second time and you go, ah! This is good. This is I do that. I don't do that but like and so I do that with U Two. some of them's got and the special effects in. You gotta get into the rocking mood and you Okay. I'll get it. Brilliant! I'll go into town on Saturday and I'll get the big four C D box set for fifty five quid. What's the first song on it? Communication Breakdown. Yeah. It's got tons on it! Communication Breakdown is not a Ah no! good one. You don't like that? Very good. I like that. Communication breakdown. Communication breakdown. . . What, what have you done? I don't, I don't like . Don't you? Babe I'm Gonna Leave Ya. Ah! That is my favourite song that is! It's all mellow and then it just goes ah! God! Absolutely amazing! Mm. Good Times, Bad Times. That's good. That's excellent. Der now, cha cha, der now, in the day Ah! Thank you. Ah ah! Mm. Yeah I'll definitely buy it. You should. It's absolutely brilliant! Absolutely. I'm gonna spend a hundred quid on music on Saturday. A hundred quid on what? I've got a hundred and eighty Well where er I've, I've got hundred and eighty quid now to go spend on clothes. And where d'ya get all that from? For my birthday and er er me clothes money as well, I'm supposed to buy clothes but I never do, I always buy C Ds. I get thirty quid a month. Thirty quid a month? Yeah. Andy gets that. Plus, plus I get extra as well whenever I ask for it she just gives it me I just say I've spent it all. But I never have. Mu mu my mum says that I've got to show all receipts at the end of the year and if I haven't got any then she wants it all back, but she's she can piss off as far that's concerned ! Oh! That's rather impressive. Mm. I haven't bought any clothes for so long. I hate buying clothes, it's horrible! You hate it? I hate buying clothes! Yeah I hate shopping like that. I, oh no! The o the only shopping I like is shopping for music, but even then I can't decide and, it's horrible. And most of the clothes I hate! I'm so picky about the clothes I get, and even then I What you wanna buy is don't like them much. you wanna buy some blue on black jeans. Blue on black? Have you not seen those? No. It's black with blue dye over the top. Like really dark blue. Ah ah! Ah! Ah! Ah! They look brilliant! Er Where do you get them from? I dunno. Aflex I think. Where is that? You've not been to Aflex? No. No. Ah! Erm you know Piccadilly Bus Station? Yeah. Well you know you ge there's Our Price there? Yeah. Well you go up towards Piccadilly Train Station Down Alban Street is it? and you go, turn left down Alban Street. And you go down there and er . What happens right if the tickets for the U Two concert come out while Si's in Mexico? I buy them for him. Are we definitely going? Cos he said something about we might not have the flat. He's gonna phone me from Mexico. I know, but if it works out that we haven't got the flat then what the fuck are we gonna do? Cry. I mean what the fuck are you gonna do with the tickets? We can go up Birmingham. Are they doing Birmingham? Yeah, but if you buy tickets for London they don't accept them in Birmingham . No. We buy them from Birmingham and stay with my brother. Well that's good. Your brother hates me! He won't be there. Won't be there. He won't be there. Won't he? He'll be at home. Why? Or will he? I think he will. If it's a house for university then they only rent it out. No. It's a house. He's bought it. He's bought a house? In with some friends. He bought a house? He bought a house. So your brother's just fairly well off? No. He's not well off at all. So your Who's not? parents paid for it? Yep. Ooh my God! Bye. Bye. Stop! Bye. Bye. Are you gonna have the house or not in London? Er, the flat? I might. What do you mean, might? We need to know. I've never thought you'd . Oh! No I don't know. But, yeah probably. Well when will you know? As soon as I know when the dates are fo for the concert. Oh right. What concert you going to Si? Why, when, when will you have it? Well I'll have it when I need it. If I need to get in for Well I thought you said there's people in it. What? There's people in it you said. Chuck them out then won't we? Just for you? Your mum'd do that? Yeah. She would. Oh. You serious? Yep. What? Just for one night? Well, for me. Your mum would chuck them out? Yep. Kick them out. Yep! Serious? She'd kick them out. Oh my God! What? The boy's not hearing right. Piss off! That's the guy coming in. He does on Thursdays? Has he? Where d'ya hear that? On Thursday? Isn't it tomorrow? No. No. with the whole bloody ! What? He gave up to sixteen. And he gave twenty three over And I came back to him, twenty one sixteen. sixteen. So er What the fuck what game's that? Nothing exciting. It was a good game. Even though you lost? Yeah good game wasn't it? Yeah. Who won? upside down. Yeah well it was the, it was a week ago so it's not what I did to it, it wouldn't stay soggy after what I did to it. ? I made it. I mean, she put it in the freezer so it's gonna er all Oh, oh right. go like that see what I mean? It's not my fault. Don't go blaming me! It was your fault ! It was quite nice after that when we tried it out. It was absolutely . Well I did the chocolate anyway. We made the chocolate as well. Well I did. Took about bloody half an hour to get it out the pan! You are sick! You are absolutely gross! What's wrong? Look at him it's all on his gob! Looks like a spliff! I know it's, all got it round his gob! I'm gonna sulk. Wo! Ah ah ah ah ah! Ah ah ah ah ah! What are in them anyway? Everything. Lettuce lettuce, mayonnaise And he could have salt but he doesn't. Salt's bad for your heart so Do I care? No. I've got bloody ham and mustard. So have I. Oh no, go on! No! God! I haven't got a . It's your fault . I got injured in this game as well. He won't, he wa he, I had him down on the Two all I got injured. floor three times. At two all I got injured. And then I was trying make a dive and missed it then I fell and bloody stretched my groin! And you know the Cos I had him, I just, I just had him like that first sixteen points and we couldn't play properly cos no one won. What do you mean, couldn't play it properly? There was no place I could run. For the ones who played table tennis innit? I know. Great! We just had to make twenty one. You always make twenty one. Stop . I know. They wanted to play . Oh I go ah is that you? Was it? Do you know about this Si? What happened? Got half each. Oh! Oh! Ho! Ho! Oh yeah! I got your I T book Si. You've got it? Yeah. Both of them? You le you left it in the room today, I picked it up and I forgot to give it you. So I've left it at home. Yeah but if everyone in this place as well. Like me. What are they? Bacon flavour . Well, where is it? What? It's at home. I need it! Well I forgot! There's You nothing in it anyway. I read it, it's a load of crap! Have you? Seriously? Oh you What, didn't you like it? No. I thought it was pretty good actually. I thought it was a load of bollocks but it was good. You're a bugger! I don't need it any more, I've written it all up again. How much you done? Six hundred words. How? How? Cos I've just done words How many pages is that? Right, guess what I called it? Information Technology in Service Industries. I mean, it's such a wide topic as I said, it's got anything. What about it? And I'm just, I'm, I'm just going through the thing and writing out different points for each thing. It's not actually. Did we have to hand it in? No. You hand it in before Easter if you want it marked and checked. But after Easter you just wanna hand it in and just sod it. I don't care. I'll bring it after Easter. Just hand it in on time. I'm gonna hand mine in tomorrow. What the first? Bollocks! Good as it'll ever be. Six hundred words is nowhere near enough. Six thousand'll be about close enough. You should see what he says. But I'm gonna one thousand You a words, but that's all I'm yo gonna do. You have wi write about five hundred words just to cover each point. You have to give loads and loads like . Fuck off! You do! Sod that! Have you do What meat? Yeah well . put meat for one of his answers ! What? About five points, he's just put meat. Fine! He told you to do anything and that's all that Well worth watching. No if you don't computer- based computer database. Electronic . Have you done it? Well, I've done some of it. Have you fuck! You still doing your three hours a night revision? You only had to do, you only had to do one or two lines. After two or three hours at night I've just started. What have you done? Have you done a lot? You've just been made to sit in this room for three hours. Well that's a bastard innit? And I'm gonna go the other side . You go you got any headphones? Yeah. He caught me last time though. Well I was singing, so And he had visitors and so they could hear me singing. I haven't done any yet. Not bad. You don't know what it's like Anyway Si, probably do better than me. And I have done some. Yeah I doubt if I'll do any to be Tha that's, I suppose, got chemicals in it and it'll come off on your food. What? Yeah. Give it a go also. If it's stored any longer then it's not. Especially in hot weather. Don't taste so nice in hot weather. Yeah I know. It all melts onto your food. Gorgeous! You can taste the plasticy sort of chemical taste. Aha. Oh well. It's not all airy. Why? Piss off then! I like airy but if, when you push them down they come back up. Yeah. Let's have one. No. Piss off! Oh please. No. Piss off! Ooh! Right you bastard! So! Hey , I better go. You don't get it with half a Jaffa Cake. Oh yeah! I want one, I want that flipping Jaffa Cake! Piss off! Bloody hell!half a Jaffa Cake. You give me one M & M one time Er fucking hell!and one in my hand. You're ungrateful . Alright. Oh and like you not talking to Olivia. Ungrateful? I didn't even bloody taste it! Bit small I've heard about you not talking to Olivia for about two weeks. Who told you this? Dunno. Yeah erm yeah. It was a week on Friday. Why? Cos she's got a friend over and she's ignoring me. And I'm gonna drop her. Are you? Bollocks you will! I bet you I will. Bollocks! She's here for another two weeks and if I don't speak to her in those two weeks I'm dropping her. Bollocks! Well I'm gonna, I'm gonna talk to her first. Tell her about . And say, give me a bit of attention please. And what do you think she'll say? Dunno. Aha. She should . Right. She'll either do that Don't spit on my bread! Adrian says she'll be in a huff right. Oh! Yeah I know. I'm gonna Ha aargh! Oh! And we've lost it. Wait a minute. Oh yeah. ! What a pratt! What do you reckon? I reckon it's disgusting that is! I reckon it's good Oh you got little crunchy bits in your sandwiches now. I better not have! If I have Of the regional erm team and erm, and erm, he was asked to go, to go on to play international And he said no but he couldn't, he couldn't Couldn't he play for a club? He was going to the fair Couldn't he play for a club? He was still young No, I don't think he was asked playing football internationally How old was he? I dunno seventeen something like that so, he had to go and get a job Well what's wrong with footballer for a job? Ah, he'd rather work at home Well if you don't make it you're skint are you? Aren't you? Yeah well you're skint Are you? at the time anyway weren't he? He'd got nothing to lose He wasn't actually, his parents were quite well off Well then you could get the money off him Chris Are your parents well off? Depends what you call well off really. Do they vote Conservative? No. Poor then. What do you vote? Er, my dad said he's voted Liberal Democrat, but he didn't my mum voted Labour she's My dad voted Labour, my brother and my sis my brother and my dad,mu my brother and my mum voted Liberal Democrat my dad pissed off said it was a wasted vote, but Why don't you just give up did he cry? I wouldn't blame him if he did. He must, he must get so pissed off with that mustn't he? I know. He must just feel like saying to everybody They should sack Neil Kinnock he's a daft Welsh git only when they're close to it as well No, he's a good guy is Neil Kinnock He's crap. Who would you vote for then this year? I'd have voted in Labour Crap Why? Conservative are for the rich. They're not. They are. What about, what about the lower tax band they've brought out? exactly, that's for rich people, it only really helps the rich that's been It does not they pay no tax anyway That, that well helps the er poor people, cos a lot of the poor people don't near enough pay tax now because if they do they only have to pay twenty P The poor people, who are these poor people? Look look that helps out the rich That does not that's the object of this that makes a very tiny difference in it, but to poorer people it makes a big difference that was brought in to help poor people you, the likes of you what do you mean who the fuck are these poor people? The bastards Yeah but, what you, what d'ya say a poor person summed up yeah, well that was what he said. Yeah I know. Aha thank you. So what was your favourite then? What, what's on the tape? What's on? Yeah. First one on the second side You like that did ya? I like that. Did you record it? No, I've got to tape that See, he's got all this bloody one thousand quid bloody hi-fi, hasn't got a double deck Single one holds that Yeah, but you can't record then So what, when you're paying that much for the hi-fi you don't expect sound quality you'll get from a tape to tape, it's thought, the sound quality is so crap you might as well just do it on a shit thing Did you follow this saying? No I ain't got a clue what he said then Look when you, when you tape tape to tape Why's it, why it's gonna be Yeah. a really crap sound quality It's not It is, it's crap. don't bloody notice the difference You do You don't well you do on mine put it that way Oh well we would wouldn't we? Shit What more d'ya put? aren't you suppose to you taping or into a you're taping all this? aren't you supposed to put it into a conversation though? supposed to find out, supposed to say what it is first What for? Shut up say what's it for, I bet he's put in a conversation What? don't say what the proper Don't put it in a conversation Yeah No do have to. you don't You don't You do. You don't What's go in and ask the following questions, just write what the questions are Oh right Yeah, well let's see yours a minute. without ripping it Without ripping it do Thank you, er it's gonna be dead er good this summer What? sit the exams, on about twenty fifth of June we'll be going on holiday, for a week, then shall go and see, well hope I should say, then I'll probably go and see U Two, hopefully, then I'll get to go on holiday on me own for two weeks oh well I'm going I'll be nowhere no, I might be going to London How d'ya spell tout suite? What? For a laugh with erm Sally, this lad called Ben, one of Sally's pals from Sweden Hmm, Sweden? Yeah, and this other lad called Mark What you going for? To get pissed basically Why don't you just do it here? Because, because you can do it properly there, you can get really plastered. You can do it here. No you can't. You can do, when you're that pissed it doesn't make any difference just anyway We're going out, we're going out probably to a strip party we're gonna do all the things that a strip bar followed by a Eh? What you do? stuff like school and hobbies was it hard? No it's do you say it in English or in French? French no it's just, it's just the same as these, it's easy Oh, aye You what? It's just the same as what we've done in the first one, and we're gonna be well up on this You've just wasted your time? No You didn't? no, it's to Well what's cos I learnt this for my, for the, for the mock and that just who's fault was that? was that? Did they That's ra that's rather humorous Aye, I thought it was and I, I'm sure did as well, a very nice one Half bottle of white wine is a bottle of ? we, so I can still talk French, yes, yeah it is Oh don't start, I hate people who do that No I didn't do it on purpose I'm sorry I'll try and stop You'd bloody like to go on holiday to America and they come back with an American accent I could shoot people who do that. Why, you, he goes home and comes back full of the Scottish accent. The, I'm naturally Scottish so that's erm Come let's hear your Scottish accent. No Why not? Hannah does that a lot, right, she goes to America and she comes back with an American accent, she goes to Scotland, she comes back with a Scottish accent, oh Oh and Steve you can't help picking up things can ya? bollocks you go for two weeks, no you can But hers is really false hers is like no, like this My sister picks up a oh well that's bloody normal innit? Go on let's listen, let's hear it No no, why not? No You're embarrassed I did my Irish one in front of him it was really good Yeah his Irish one is so top Go on then let's hear your Irish one. Wanna hear yours first. No, no, no, I wanna hear your Irish one His is so top, go on just do it, go on you, you git Sorry do your bloody thing, go on just a sec, just do your accent will ya ? I can't do it like that I can't just turn it on Go on do it who you trying to turn it on, with everybody speaking Scottish, you speak Scottish Yeah Ooh aye Jimmy Oh alright then Have you got my haggis? Not very stereotype then, go on, I did mine I've gotta, I've gotta think of one, I've gotta think of what to say go on Can you say er, can, can you tell me the way to the nearest post office please? No go on, just say something I'm bound to do it break better Oh come on do it Come on you big girl do it you big Jessie oh aye You a conomy ? conomy ? Instead of Cockney Oh what's, what's white wine Cockney alright, er What? I'm actually have I got to know Scottish can, can you do your big Rab Nesbit, really broad? No, I won't try that Broad Glasgow I'm thinking, I'm thinking Go on it's hard you know you can't just do it Oh I've heard you do it before I just come straight out with it When I'm, when I'm when I'm in an I've heard you do it before environment with other Scottish people I can do it I didn't with my Irish thing, just spit out with it Yeah I know, but I can't do that Can't ya? No Well that's no good is it? Can't you come out with anything? I've been down here for bloody nine years I've missed it a bit I, I put on Yeah, but you can still talk I haven't, I, I, I've never been to Ireland you can still talk it over though I have never been to Ireland Well is that a proper Scott Irish accent then? Have you got an Irish mum or dad? Yes that's a a perfect Irish accent Do your mum and dad have an Irish accent? Slightly, just a bit, not much though, just pick it up from, you know people talking on T V and stuff come on Yours comes natural you see Oh just try it then we don't care, we won't laugh, much You will laugh I know you'll laugh, but Er is your hair thickener working ? I don't use it That was out of order that Oh that was tight that moment get him back, is that spot cream working? You are a tight bastard That was, that was, that was uncalled for Mr sensitivity there, is your fucking hair thickener working. Well is it? Come on ah, he's upset now, I'm sorry about it I'm not you should laugh look, less fortunate God You'll go bald No I won't What's this, I'm not very hungry? I dunno Je ne faim pas innit? Yeah Is your brother still going out with that bird? Yeah well I don't know how long, how long's he been out with her? Since about Christmas now What, is that, is that the blonde brassy? So he's shagged her now? The one who's no the blonde lad, the one who used to sit on the door, er Has he gone completely bald yet? stopping us going, ooh He's very very thin aha Is he yet? Is that the one who used to be No he used to be a six former at ours? so what if no, no, don't, don't you tend to er stand in front of the mirror and admiring your , should keep should keep it growing really long so when you go a bit thin, just grease it over like this That's worse that it looks terrible that and brush it all in I think you should shave it all off, aye Yeah you should go in, you right, right said Oh What she called? Lyndsey Ooh I hate that name What? I hate that name What's your girl friend called? Rhiannon Rhiannon, oh, no comment, I rest my case no it's alright that Has he shagged her yet though? No he doesn't intend to Oh you're, you're the er He doesn't intend to not before marriage, marriage either is she like that as well? Yeah. She, er, whatever What, what ever? Does she go to church? Yeah She what ever she does, yeah I think she's a what ever, yeah She's an interesting person then? She is actually You are so bloody cheeky you are What's wrong with that about, oh what's wrong with that? I don't know it is, yeah So it's a bit of a a bit boring It is what time do you have to get up on a Sunday morning? Er seven It starts at eleven Oh that's alright that's, that's the modern church cos he knows everyone's getting pissed on a Saturday night, so they've gotta let it What you do? Sing songs and In the church? Yeah Sing, you sing some songs and I, I, I've been to church twice does it get a bit boring? It doesn't, no Have you ever been to church at night? No I went with the Cubs once and we sat there pissing ourselves Yeah I did go and I went erm at Christmas once and it was bollocks, I just went hey, I wish I, glad I don't go to church Do you believe in it all? I dunno Why d'ya go if you don't believe in it? What are you? Are you er one of them blokes that don't believe in it? I'm not, I'm not sure about it all, it's interesting that's why I go I don't believe in it Not in I did it I think that the way they, they've explained it scientifically but not in, I have to go, but not interested That's crap that place, that is so boring D'ya go to church? Which one do you go? No, I used to In Altrincham D'ya sing? What sort is it? Is it a Catholic one? Baptist Baptist, what's that mean? I don't understand all these differences Just pay your money and you put it in the tray It's just you believe in baptizing Were you baptized? No That makes sense Baptize you why not? Why weren't you baptized? You make such a decision you make when you, when The decision you make when you Yeah Right aargh you don't christened at a baptist church Of course you can get baptized when ya, er at any age can't ya? It's not baptizing, christening is different You can get baptized any time can't ya? Yeah when you're baptized it's your own decision when you're baptized it's like a pool of water Three or four of us start, er three or four of us talking yesterday, day before yesterday, erm, about the attitude generally of erm students in the, the sixth form, years twelve and thirteen, and and erm, it struck us that erm possibly in this year's lower sixth erm there, there are one or two people, boys and er lads and girls, erm who are not aware Boys and lads and girls of what sixth form courses entails, now, erm, three or four of us thought it might be worth our while, or your while if you just briefly said what I'm going to say now, that erm, the, the It's a bit vague innit? work you do up to G C S E is very difficult, that it should be very different from erm, when you're in the sixth form Why? Because until G C S E you are fed, the school is fed, in that you are told fairly quickly what you have to do and although I know that a number of you spends the right amount of time or a lot of time on homework, you are told usually, er you have erm a night or two nights in which to do this particular piece of work now once you get into the sixth form I can tell I'm not gonna like this you are given very much more freedom or independence would be a better word, and erm Shit you'd be expected to, to do a lot of work by yourself, and that's reflecting the fact that erm you'll probably have four or five lessons in each of your three subjects, but most people would choose three subjects for A level, and that means that er, when you're not having lessons, you've got a lot of time that is not accountable for, you will have been, or going to a general studies period and stuff like that, but there will be a fair number of private study periods, erm, there are some people I think who, who go overboard, and you've got such a different approach erm from er the lower sixth, people don't use the time that they have, erm, what I'm really saying is that if you go into the sixth form and you spend less school time in the sixth form you don't need to be prepared Well what's to, to make wise use of your non-teaching time, erm presumably going into a library quite a lot. You would also be expected to for example to prepare for Eh I'm not going into a library, fuck that for certain lessons, I just give you an example with literature it would work with erm science and er other things as well, you might be told in the next lesson we are going to discuss, for example the first act of a particular play, or we're going to discuss which particular scientific experiment or the cause of whatever it is you will be expected to have done some research, done some preparation before coming along to the lesson, if you go along to the lesson not having done that, you will be able to play back certain tips from what the other people say, but you will not er, you will find that anywhere near as if you were prepared, because if you were prepared there are bound to be one or two things that you would want to ask for, own by the standard of interpretation of whatever it is, or a particular word if it's a language and so on, erm and that is something that er I think people erm come across as Oh yeah, sure and the other, the other, the other thing, I don't want to make this sound a lecture or anything like that, but the other thing is that erm erm you have You can stuff your lecture twenty one months in the sixth form, please don't think that everybody has two years, erm and those, those Oh okay short two years may make a big difference at this stage now, erm A levels only happen when the most, a month, more from school and then they have study leave as you are, now erm when you consider the, the year since September has gone very, very quickly, those who have done very little work in that first year, year twelve, will find that been packed in there and that first year in the sixth is just like your year ten ought to have been, perhaps, one or two of you are are realizing Oh oh that you could have done a bit more last year That's likely and it's even more noticeable once you go into the, the year twelve, that first twelve months is crucial, if you just kick your heels and do nothing, you'll find it very very difficult to work to pull up Is he finished this? Finished this? but whichever work you study Yeah, all of it? you know that is the, erm two or three things there, you're working by yourself in your, your personal preparation prepa preparation are crucial parts, erm, if any of the people were thinking of going to erm, erm, a college, erm, the same sort of thing will arise and I suppose the big difference for if you don't have lessons then I think I'm right in saying you don't necessarily have to go in, I don't know whether that still applies, erm, you would be expected of course to erm, erm, to turn up at school here, erm, now there are advantages and disadvantages, you may feel that you prefer, knowing on your own what you're like, you'll prefer erm some fairly rigid rules, erm, because if there weren't rules you might think you'd take advantage of us You got rules here erm, only that sort of rules, probably a big advantage I think of staying in er sixth form is that erm you know the staff, you know the system and it and they know you, erm if you go to A big problem man you will take you a matter of months of course for you to settle in, and those first few months are crucial, again, I maybe just mention this that you are aware of okay so that's Okay, let's go eh? What? was a bit out of order we have nothing to do with it hmm What? It was an accident hair, leave the hair it was an accident Cor I bet You'd been planning it for about It just came out In the Telegraph they've got all the things we've been a lot of them Ye e e ah you little capitalist, ow give over You socialist, get out the house, socialist dog, er, er, er Stop it you, somebody's going to stand up there ow me back go away Socialist out crummy, poor, common you got, capitalist common she boasts if people like me weren't on this world then your share will go up to you should be grateful, but you're not, this is, this er country will be in ruin. Shut up, it is in ruin No, no, it's not that bad though, not as bad as other countries, this is a world recession, not just Britain Oh who have you been talking to Mr Major? I'm gonna be P M I am, the Conservative party No chance have you mate? I'm gonna be, er Don't know, are you good at debating? Good at lying Oh you're gonna be alright then Erm, is my nice white shirt clean? Which one? My one, that one They're all clean at the moment, I've washed everything this morning Going on a pub crawl tonight You can't if you've got thing I haven't got it How'd you know? Cos, cos hasn't got it Where you going? I feel fine You didn't say that yesterday, where you going? But don't drink all the milk if you please There's bloody loads Yes, but there won't be by tomorrow morning The milkman will come tomorrow morning So why, where you going? Why, where you going? In the most, most, most disagreeing voice I can put on funny It's not funny I think it's disgusting don't you? turn yourself into a monk Like Gerrard like Gerrard was I say the same thing to Why, why do we going to er a friend's party or something Oh dear, you not invited? Don't be daft, I hate 'em I wouldn't go if he invited me that's right What you want to wear white shirt for you're not going out in your suit? No I know I'm not Oh oh flipping heck, what's that? Just me trousers and a white shirt that What's that? I've already made sandwich, sandwich for lunch Mm what you got? there you go I've made half the effort you make the other half No I won't make the other half, I've done enough this morning, washing and ironing Oh yeah, I've done this I've done that, I've done this oh yeah, yeah, yeah, some of us have to go to school to work I have to work the rest of the day and not finish at two o'clock Yes, yes, yes Oh I'm bored, bored oh fuck it, I'm bored, bored, bored Aren't you doing your papers? I am doing them in a minute. Be careful, I won't have any settee left Oh talk to me What do you want to do for the next two weeks? Oh yeah, should of You'd better start I have started what's that? I have started What's that? Next conversation tape Oh I have started Have you? What? Nothing, just asking have you? I haven't done much, but I Next two weeks is a good idea because you've no school during the day It's so boring, you just don't take any of it in cos it's so boring. Well surely you retain some of it? You don't honestly Jogs your memory honestly it's really, really I can't believe how boring it is yes come on mum talk to me No, I don't talk to Conservatives Don't you? No So it Yes, there we are then They're so low Yes this lower class man Mm lower you little capitalist That's that believe in other people, at other people's expense Eh? Could be at other people's expense Do I care? No you won't care I know all you care about is number one I know Yes I know that Christopher like your dad there, too much like him How much do you people like, get anywhere Yes, but you know that they're liked at the end of it people like you get nowhere in life but you might not be liked at the end of it Liked? Mm Who by? Anybody that you've trampled on along the way Don't care No, but you if I've trampled on them I wouldn't like them anyway I can be nice Yes, you can sometimes, when it suits ya No, just ask Rhiannon if I'm nice Rhiannon doesn't know ya, you must be on your best behaviour with her Rubbish Yeah What you on about? What are you going to buy with your vouchers? Nothing, it's up to you You can get lots of socks and boxer shorts Christopher You said you'd buy them off me straight away, you already owe me thirty quid, that's fifty five I haven't got it, you didn't give me your money this morning so I didn't bother going to the building society So you owe me fifty five quid, what's that got to do with it? I said, I can't give it to you today though Why not? I just told you why not, I didn't go and get it Why? Cos you didn't give me your money to put in So why didn't you go and get some out? I was only going to get out what I was gonna give to you to put it, you said you were putting it in I didn't, I never said I was putting it in, you said that for me Oh alright shut up, don't spend, don't save any you're going to be in a mess in the summer when you want, want lots of money to spend Why I'm gonna want some money to spend on? Well you're talking about that concert and what are you and Rhiannon going to do for the whole of the summer when you finish in June? No idea No, nothing Well we're going on holiday for two weeks, well probably three actually cos we're going with you an'all aren't, do ya know where we'll be going on holiday? I don't know I really don't know Do you think so? No, it doesn't seem very positive, I don't know When, never is, is it? No, we'll see I don't know if I want to spend the money this year Has he bothered last year? Oh I suppose he could, we'll see Will, will, will, will we still go? I don't know yet, we'll have to see, if we find anywhere cheap enough Well do you want to? Oh, I mean we wanted to go in May but we can't we can may apart from the fact it'll be half tricky, we'll be more busy, I don't like it when it's busy Not at all, in the middle of bloody June there'll be no one there It'll be the end of June before you finish, twenty what? Yeah, end of June yeah, well, no one else is off then What, there be no kids off granted, but other countries go, we'll see start looking round the beginning of June if your dad wants to go, there was, I just noticed this morning coming passed the erm, I think it was the Co-op or the one next door, a week in Ibiza, twenty sixth of April, self catering, a hundred and twenty four pounds, that's the day you go, that's the week you go back to school, you I don't want to go to Ibiza again No, no, but I said the it's such a touristy place, I don't wanna, I don't wanna go to a touristy Everywhere's a touristy place place. Well I can go without you Not having that, will we still go if dad don't wanna go? Oh I don't know I suppose Please Maybe just me and you We'll see Great No Why? I don't understand why not that's not fair then, that's erm, that's taking four people and not giving back, that's ungrateful That's right then Why not? I'll see, no Anyway she's no money I know, well she couldn't anyway, but I mean why not? There's no, it doesn't matter why if she can't No, go on, I want the reason, she might be able to if her mum and dad pay for her go on I don't know, I'm not taking responsibility for you both Why? don't er, have to share one room perhaps, she might not like it Share a one room with who? All of us, if we got er one room Oh like we did in Ibiza there was only one room oh a stu a studio Mm, some of, a lot of them are like that Well you don't have to have a studio, you have a choice when you book it Yeah, but they're more money aren't they? No That was only meant for three, you couldn't have got four in it not that bad for four Well where would of the other bed have gone? Stand the other side, move, would of moved those drawers and stuff on there I think My God you know, you don't the apartments for three, you don't travel in threes Yeah, just couple and one kid So she can't? No That's not fair,is it? No, but, but Oh Chris will you please but you didn't, you won't take shut up about it responsibility for her before she's sixteen, take responsibility for ourselves Then you can go on your own Oh you, you wouldn't let me would you, you would Yeah, get yourself a job, get yourself a job you wouldn't let me go on me own If you were paying for it I couldn't stop you now you're sixteen You'd just give us dirty looks probably wouldn't go Mm, go and get yourself a job and go So you wouldn't mind? You got I can't stop you now you're sixteen you've gotta be eighteen before you you stop me doing other things Such as? Oh don't start that one again, I'm bored with that Can, can I stay with I'll see, but I'm not promising Chris, it also depends what your dad says He's never here anyway, it don't matter No we've got a separate, spare room When's dad coming back? I don't know yet, I should think it'll be by the end of the month Why he ask you? He hasn't, got to wait for the things to come the, the bed and the car and er they haven't ordered a carpet yet She, got to wait till they order a carpet? Well there's no use moving in till they've got a lounge carpet cos if they go in they'd just have to move everything to get it in Sodding hell they haven't got a bed anyway, we don't know when that's coming Why? They can't sleep on the floor can they? They can if I can, hmm, er when's the bed going to get there? We don't know Well when, did they order it? Mm From where? Oh one of those catalogues That's a rip off isn't it? No they're not, they got a was it thirty percent discount, first Five time buyer or something Oh thirty I think it was thirty How much was the bed? Oh I think they said they were paying a hundred and ninety nine Where they get all their money from? They're not getting it, it's all on credit Oh that's bad news innit? Not if they can afford to pay it and they don't get too much, it's interest free credit on fridge freezer Well I know, it's still bad news cos they've got their mortgage and everything Well they're both working, they've got a good, good income every month now How much? I dunno, I think they should clear eleven hundred a month between them No in years I don't know how much they're getting clear eleven what d'ya mean clear? Well after you've had your tax and insurance taken off, that's how much they should have between them What between them, that at the end of the month that's only twelve thousand, thirteen thousand a year, that's crap, that's what Gerrard gets just on his own Oh it must be more then I don't know then it's double that innit? Lesley gets more than Gerrard doesn't she? She does now, she's got this new job Oh, it's about twice that what's Gerrard on ten thousand? More than that, twelve innit? Oh I don't think it's Twelve, thirteen, yeah cos he used to be on ten at the old place and he gets about two thousand more Oh was then ten? Oh yeah, well after you've taken tax and insurance back you see, you've lost about three hundred, three fifty Yeah, under the Conservatives that, if you'd been under Labour you would of lost about four hundred didn't think of that though did you, didn't think your own son But they, the Conservatives are cutting down on the health service and everything else and the schools So? What are we going to do when there's no, no health service? They're going to get rid of it you know eventually No They are No they're, they'll still be that's the way it's going they'll still be a health service, but peo No but people who can afford to pay for it will be, will be made to at the time Well that just which I think is right, if you can afford to pay for it then you should be made, made to But where do they draw the line at those who can afford to pay for it? I don't know, that's up to them No so I draw the pay, a set amount each month and have peace of mind thank you very much Aargh even if I've never had to use it much Never even paid national insurance in your life have you mum? Your dad pays his share for me, comes out of his wages if I paid, it's just extra on top of all that, if I was paying any Well that, oh, it's no point in arguing Why? You ask me so I told ya no point in arguing, you won't make a very good politician, shut up, sod off Don't use that language I can't win this argument so shut up I shall bloody win Pardon? I shall bloody win That's enough Why shouldn't, why shouldn't we be made to pay for a health service? Because it's, it's a service for everyone, as long as everybody gets the same The only good thing, the only good thing about La the only good thing about Labour is that they would have brought back student grants so if I ever, if I ever do go to university then I'll get lots of money. And if Labour'd got in they'd of er, your dad said he'd er probably got a rise Would he? Mm, I think he Rubbish how much? Don't know, Labour'd be more give more to the public sector don't they than the Conservatives? Why he got a rise by the He might of done he said, he probably would of done in the la the unions would of put in a big one for Mr Major wouldn't give one, still wouldn't have affected do you care? Aha, do you want him to have more money? Half his share So it, it what did he say? More for him to lose did he say B T had gone up twenty P this morning? this morning I think he said twenty P When'd he tell you that? overnight, he came home at lunchtime They went up ten overnight to about, to about Oh they've gone er to about what I paid for them Well I think he said they've gone up twenty when he came home I'm not sure Yeah it has, see How many have you got, three hundred? Three hundred and eighty Did he say I pay twenty pounds? So that's twenty P int it in a hundred? What? He said I've made twenty pounds overnight so that's, yeah they've gone up twenty P each cos I've got a hundred Make sense I suppose so you've made sixty pounds overnight No I've made eighty, nearly eighty You had three hundred Three hundred and eighty I just said Oh sorry We're on tape number eight My goodness What? you've done some to get all that it's got It's got 'em it's got a load of rubbish on five, six and seven, there's perhaps nothing on it, I've just left it running ah Chris, it doesn't matter as long as I get, I just this is there's nothing on those tapes by the way Well she said she didn't expect you to use all of 'em didn't she? Hello commoner, can we, can we interview with a Yes common, common Don't socialist? No. No? No, you're so embarrassed about your socialist ideas, you, you don't, you don't them, feel people knowing that socialist Oh look at that socialist person, what? it tipped over Er, you should always put meat, meat and things, things that are gonna drip at the bottom, never ever put That's not meat never, never ever put meat at the top I know you don't, they go on there Are you sure? Cos you get the sort of thing like things are dripping off and if you've got germs in them and you've had a bad Well this fridge is either full or it's empty, there's no half measures ever, it's never just right No, it's either empty or full of crap so in other words it's empty for me, all the time Yes, well, you put in what you want oh shit Oh sugar you tell it mum, you tell it love Nobody else will No sad innit? Tea's in there Yes No Why? What? You want ? Yeah, but apart from that I don't touch it No Why not? You take all my money just talking Shut up Shut up Can I? No Why? I don't fancy it that's all What? You're just into ego trips, make himself What? I'm not playing your game, stop saying what Well am I a good son? No. Why not? Yes I suppose so Why? what's a bad one anyway? I dunno what's a good one? I mean No am I perfect? you are not No I think Christopher give over think, think you are too mum, you, you could have a son who is taking drugs, who was doing all sorts of in crime and joyriding Mm, mm but no Mo I've got you, Conservative Yeah, miles better, for the good of the country they're not good for you, women shouldn't have the vote you know women shouldn't get the vote, I think they should bring back, bring back just men having vote, women don't get a say as far as I'm concerned that's a good idea don't you think? Oh we go to our place for, now women stage for stage, that's my, that's my whole life it's my whole I've had that erm, have my views, so why do you think I should vote Labour? Er Come on why? because they'll put more into education and schools Yeah and it'll take a and the health service Yeah, but they haven't got enough money Take it off the rich they haven't got enough money to do that. well take it off the rich. They have not, they have not got enough Well they will do they haven't, did you not read the article in the er Telegraph? They said, they said Yeah, I'm sorry I don't need the actual, actually nine point four billion pounds behind Short short Mm yes because they, they fo forgot to take out the money which they could have, which erm, which would of come from privatization, which they had no intention of doing so they took that out. Are you not for privatization? Er ye yes, if it gives a better service at the end of the day So you think it's better? Yeah Well why don't Labour then? I just said because of the health service and schools Well the health service could be privatized and they're more likely to give more money to us and why shouldn't the health service be privatized? Because some people need a lot more treatment than others and it's something you cannot, you cannot forecast I know but the actual, the actual peo the actual people that have to pay for us, such it could be more that erm, the government would actually pay for it and then hospitals would erm fight for the, for the actual er thing Yes, but what if they don't? What if they don't want? If they just make it totally private where everybody has to pay I don't know they'd never do that, they'd never do that those poor unfortunate people, I don't know would they not? No That's a right step in the right direction, no Do you not think British Rail would have, have I've no idea, I'm sure it will now You do care no I don't care, why should I care ? Don't know Won't make any difference to my life these are cold Why not, why didn't you vote Liberal Democrat? Because I don't think they had a chance of getting in to vote What getting into our seat? No, well, and to the country as a whole What does it matter about the country, the seat is what's important Well yes did you actually find out about the figures for the seat? No I didn't If you found out but they come second if you found out then you might have found out that they weren't very far behind, so they could of caught up and they could of gained a seat and they could of gained a say in the government Mm, mm so it's not wasted at all No is it? No Pathetic, pathetic You asked it's, you just, you just don't believe and they went back up I'm the same as everybody else who's got views a Labour person What's the difference? a Labour person will never actually buy shares truly wouldn't Well I wouldn't, it's you and your dad who've bought the shares, I wouldn't You did I put, yes only because your dad wanted some yes, I wouldn't dream of it otherwise, I'd stick my money in the building society Why not? you just to save, we have a You make a lot more money though I haven't made it so far, look at me, I'm living in luxury I am, I've got lots of money to spend Compared to other people maybe, yes mum you're not grateful for what you've got I haven't got much of anything yet Compared to a lot of other people you've got a lot more Yeah, well compared to a lot more I've got a lot less Yeah, well you don't look at it like that Yeah, well that's the way you look at it you, you you're always going on about what you want you, you want to be the best and no one I don't want to be the best, I just want a reasonable amount You've got a reasonable amount haven't ya? I haven't, it depends what you, what way you look at it You, nah, you've always got enough for what you want ain't ya? No, have I heck, I haven't got enough money for a, really good clothes and shoes that I'd like Why d'ya want really good clothes? Why not? Eh? Why not? Make you look good, look good Why shouldn't I have decent clothes and shoes? really good clothes, what do you mean by really good clothes? Expensive well reasonably expensive Talking about clothes from Next for women No I wouldn't go there Why not? Marks and Spencers'll do me Oh my God instead of once every three months well you can have it I could have something every week you want something every week from Marks and Spencers, that is so sad, I Oh wouldn't go in Marks and Spencers if you'd pay me You have to, you're getting some vouchers tonight Well last time you got some vouchers right you I can't buy myself anything, I've still got to pay for them But you'll be able to buy yourself something still Mm, but there's nothing I want now Mm, I'm sure you'll find something in Marks and Spencers, I have heard about a new trick mum, how to con money out of Marks and Spencers Yeah? right, you go upstairs, pick up the most expensive article they've got and then you go downstairs to the customer relations department and say I bought this article yesterday and say, and, and I'm afraid But you haven't got a receipt though I'm afraid it doesn't fit unfortunately I've lost the receipt but will you still change it? And they say yes we will, our business teach teacher told us about that you see because it's been happening a lot, cos Marks and Spencers don't ask for a receipt you see, it actually happened, they used to take things from upstairs, bring them downstairs and said they bought it and got the money for it. That's terrible Clever still I can earn it No you don't Yeah I know but Marks and Spencers are a crap shop I don't care if they go out of business they're a rip off anyway, they're so expensive, such crap clothes, they're so common, that's the word I've been looking for common, that's my word of the week I think er common common,does it not get to ya looking like everyone else? I don't look like everyone else. If you, if you wear Marks and Spencers clothes you'd look like everyone else No I wouldn't first perhaps you look like millions of other people I would like more money for a few more things though you got five hundred quid bonus, why don't you spend that? Because you, you've just been going on about going abroad Er, ee that's why are we gonna go? Oh Chris don't start that again, I don't know yet Out, how much money have you got in the building society? What's it got to do with you? Go on how much? Eight hundred Mm is that you've saved up this year? Yes Saved it well haven't you? Yes, so say I've only got six hundred and fifty, will you give me some? No I won't Oh I'm skint That's your problem Don't you think I'm skint? I will be skint if I give you all my money Yeah, you'll feel better for it though No I wouldn't Tt you'll get Yeah Eh? Yeah Why? You're annoying me now Why? You're just being so So, does that annoy you then? Oh I'm freezing cold Can't you Christopher I don't know and quite honestly I don't care at the moment You always bite me head off when I ask some sensitive questions I've got too many other things Why don't we go next week? Too late now No it's not No you've got a week it won't be as warm as it is in the April Well perhaps if we will, we weren't to, if we went next week, we'd have two weeks earlier than last year won't we? Or three Three I think Three weeks, yeah we'll go somewhere like that Greece or you know if you ask me er I know loads of people in this I know, where did they stay? They went to Tenerife Oh I think that's, when you, when I've seen the things on the telly you know showing these traveller things, it does look a prettier island, it does look quite a lo a bit, nicer island the scenery and Tenerife and Lanzarote are no good then? Do they have good beach Where there is a pavement or foot path used, do not walk next to the curb with your back from the traffic, look both ways before you step into the road where there is no foot path, walk on the right hand side of the road, it is safer to walk on the side facing on coming traffic, keep as close as possible to the side of the road, take care at right hand bends, keep one behind if that is possible, particularly line heavy traffic on flurry, do not allow children under age five at least out alone on the road, go with them, walk between them and the traffic and always keep tight hold of their hands, if you can't do this then use reigns as security, secure them firmly into the pushchair, do not let them run into the road, always wear or carry something bright or light or reflected within the dark of light, this is especially important, that all uses it it's just the rules I suppose That's how man crossing the road, I don't need, you won't get asked that one will ya? well ya, well ya might, but you, you just you know it anyway, it's just common sense that, I mean you know how to cross the road now, don't ya?, look one way and that the road you, use it on wheels that's er bike is it, that's bike on wheels, is it in car? don't say keep your vehicle in good condition, pay particular attention to lights, brakes, steering, tyres, including spare seat belts great demisters,di demisters, windscreen wipers and washers, keep windscreens, windows, lights, direction heaters, reflectors and mirrors and number plates clean and clear, do not drive with the defect upon suitable exhaust system, if L plates have been fitted, remove or covering, when the vehicle is not being used with the driving instruction or practice. You must ensure that any loads carried or towed or secured and do check and see, do not overload your vehicle or trailer, when on a motor cycle, scooter or moped you must wear a safety helmet or designed which maybe fastened securely, you also must wear sturdy boots and gloves, tell other seen, wear something bright coloured or bright, reflect the material, open the door, brighten materials help in daylight as do and sheen. Over a hundred and fifty C C to two hundred and do not drive that's motorbikes if you feel tired or unwell, fatigue can cause serious accidents, never drive if you're under the influence of drugs or medicines, it can seriously affect your driving ability, always ask your doctor whether it is safe for you to drive when taking prescribed medicines. If you need spectacles to meet the official eye sight standard, wear them, it is an offence to drive with uncorrected defective vision. Do not use tinted or optical equipment of any kind, sun glasses some case night driving spectacles have they sky goggles or tinted helmet visors at night or in conditions of it's bleeding bikes car as well it'll be it's, but er now but, but that's bikes that Tinted glasses do not help your vision, do not use spray on or aye, the wind does or windscreens are you gonna get me the, the stuff that you need to know Sharon? alcohol and road user don't need any more of that, you know not to drink and drive you wanna learn your roundabouts, junctions and that and get how to give way and well we just do this, people get asked this drive as responsible and driving that children under fourteen are sitting sit down when they are travelling, in the front a child, now one year, must use an approved child restrain design for age and weight, a child over one may wear any approved child restraint on adult seat belt, in the rear a child must be restrained and the appropriate restrain is fitted, the the term appropriate restrain includes the following; infants under one year old, a carry or cot which is held by straps, children one, two or three years in appropriate child seat or harness or booster cushion with an adult belt, not a household cushion. Children from four to fourteen year old an appropriate child seat or harness. In the rear an adult may be restrained in preference to the child, however an adult must not deny a child the use. Do not carry children in the middle of space by the rear seats of an estate car or a hatch back unless the manufacturer has provide the seat for this purpose. Signs, know your traffic signs, right, signals, give signal , give signals if they would help or warn other road users watch out for the signals of other drivers and motor cyclists or pedal cyclists and take necessary action from them. You must obey the signals given by a police officer way no way, see them man. Moving off, before moving off always use your mirrors, but look round as well for a final check, signal as necessary before moving out, move off only when you can do so safely without making the road user change speed or direction right you gonna ask us some questions? I'm gonna in a minute driving along what must you do when you're driving along? take care what else? I don't get what you mean anyway well when you're driving along give us some of the things what you do, tell us something that you do when you're driving along keep an eye on traffic ahead use your mirrors often, that you know what is behind you and that each sign is what you said erm check all your speed limits driving along, keep to the left except when road signals or markings indicate otherwise or when you intend to overtake, or turn right, or when you have to pass stationery vehicles or pedestrians in the road, allow others to overtake you if they want you, you must not drive on by the side of the road. Use your mirrors, on narrow or winding roads or where there is a lot of oncoming traffic, drivers of large or slow moving vehicles should be prepared to pull in and slow down to stop as soon as there is suitable opportunity, well, before you take off or turn left or turn right, or slow down or stop, use your mirrors, you should always look behind even if they're none, a motor cycle should always look behind either, then give the appropriate signal if necessary , remember the routine yes what? reverse, signal and manoeuvre always keep a special look out for cyclists particularly when overtaking or turning, bearing in mind that two wheels are much less easy to see than large vehicles. Driving for long distances may make you sleepy, to help prevent this make sure there is plenty of fresh air in your vehicle, if you become tired on the journey, stop and rest at a suitable parking place , right. You must obey the speed limits for the road and for your vehicle, remember the, except the motorways there is a thirty mile per hour speed limit on all roads, where there are streets unless sign show otherwise. Bear in mind that any speed limit is a maximum, it does not mean that it is safe to drive at that speed, always take into account all the conditions at the time, never drive so fast that you cannot stop well within the distance you can see to be clear. Go much more slowly if the road is wet or icy or first drive more slowly at night, remember it can be especially difficult to see pedestrians or cyclists at night and in poor daylight conditions, do not break, sharply, except in an emergency. Leave enough space between you and the vehicle in front so that you can pull up safely if it slows down or stops suddenly, the safe rule is never to get closer than the overall stopping distance shown below, but on the open road in good conditions leave a gap of one metre for each mile an hour of your speed or a two second time gap may be enough, they will also leave space for an overtaking vehicle pulling or wet or icy or the gap should be at least double that, drop back if you know that taking vehicle closing gap in front of you make way for ambulance, fire engines, police or van emergency vehicles when their blue lamps are flashing or their bells, two tone cones or sirens or . In towns, give way to buses indicating, an intention to move out from the bus stops, if you can do so safely. Use of microphones and car telephones They won't use Do not use a hand held microphone or telephone when vehicles moving except in emergencies, you should only stick your fix or clip on microphone where it will not distract your attention from road, do not stop on a hard shoul shoulder of a motorway to answer or make a call however urgent. Driving in fog; when driving in fog check your eh?, check your what? your lights you see you to do if you're not listening check your lights? no, I didn't say that in the, in the fog, what you do? what you do when driving in fog check your speed, yes and slow down, keep a safe distance, you should always be able to pull up within your range of vision , what else don't you do, what don't you do in fog? overtake hang on to somebody elses tail lights, it gives us a false sense of security watch your speed, you may be going much faster than you think, do not speed up to get away from the vehicle which is too close behind you, remember that if you're driving with heavy people it may take longer to pull up and speed on ahead, warning signals or check and clean your wind screens, lights, reflectors and windows remember that fog can give is often patchy even though when it is clearing Sharon I only wanna learn this bit by bit, you know, not the whole book a pelican crossing has the signals have the same meaning as traffic lights except that the flashing amber signal will follow the red stop signal, when amber light is flashing you must give I what you do when amber light flashing? after the stop stop stop at the line stop behind the line you must give way to any pedestrians on the crossing, so, otherwise you may proceed a straight pelican is one crossing even when there is a central refuge and you must wait for people crossing from the further side of the refuge, don't harass the pedestrians for instance by revving your engine. When turning into a road junction, give way to what's a road junction? like a coming out oh, give way to traffic coming out pedestrians who are crossing the road in which you are turning when entering or emerging from property bordering on a road, give way to pedestrians as well as the traffic on the road, remember pavements are for people, not for motor cycles motor vehicles is it here? I don't take . Lines and lanes along the road. A single broken line with long markings and short gaps in the middle of the road is the what lines? single broken lines with long markings and short gaps with the middle, in the middle of the road is the hazard warning lines, do not cross it unless you can see that the road well ahead is clear. Where there are double white lines along the give way road and the line nearer to you is solid, you must not cross or straddle it, except when you need to get in and out of the premises on side road. Where there are double white lines along the road and the line nearer to you is broken, you may cross the lines to overtake if you . Overtaking, give us some, do not overtake unless you can do so without slow motors down or causes I was just gonna say before you start overtaking make sure the road is clear, use your mirror, signal before you move out signal, then move out be careful in the dusk, remember mirror, signal, manoeuvre once you start to overtake move quickly passed the vehicle you are overtaking, when overtake er, overtake only on the right except when the driver in the front has signalled that he intends to turn right, you can overtake him on the left, without getting in the way, when you want to turn left at a junction, when traffic is moving slowly in queues and be er, in a lane on the right and moving more slowly than you are, in one way streets, but not dual carriageways, maybe with a path on either side, when traffic is moving as described, do not increase your speed while being overtaken, slow down if necessary to let the overtaking vehicle pass. On the tail, lane road, give way to vehicles coming towards you you must not overtake if you would have to cross or straddle double white lines with a solid line on the out of you, erm if you're within a zig zag area, the pelican crossing, after a normal overtaking sign until the end of the restriction, do not overtake when you cannot see far enough ahead, for example, when coming through bend a corner or bend single traffic, single line traffic hump back bridge or the brow of the hill, or where you might come into conflict with the car, with other road users for example at junctions the road junction roundabout don't say that a level crossing or where the road narrows, on approached any type of pedestrian crossing or where it would involve driving over an area marked with diagonal stripes to or che chevrons, do not overtake when you do so would force another vehicle to swerve or slow down, if in doubt do not overtake so where'd you not overtake? on a corner or hump backed bridge mm round a bend, junction yeah, at a level cross , at a level crossing or where the road bends, or approach to any pedestrian crossing. Road junctions. Approach road junctions with great care, consider your road position and your speed, drive on only when you are sure it is safe to do so and that you will not block the junction, watch out for long vehicles which maybe turning left or right, at the junction ahead, but which may have to use to make a turn, when waiting to emerge at a junction, do not assume that a vehicle approaching from the right which is signalling with it's left hand direction indicator would turn left, wait to make sure do you know what I mean? that, if you leave and that car comes and signals left, it means that you've got to wait for it to go in, in case it doesn't you know what I mean. At a junction with double broken white lines across the road it may also have the give way sign on invert inverted triangle on the carriageway, you must be ready to let traffic on the major road go first. At junctions with a stop sign and a solid white line across your approach, you must stop at the line, wait for a safe gap in the traffic before you move. When crossing the dual carriageway or turning right into the road, treat each half as a separate road, wait do you know what it means by that? in the cen central driving, dividing strip do you know what that means until there is a safe gap do you know what it means you come to turn right on road, and each it's er lanes a separate road doesn't it? you know when you come, you know when you and nanny drop us off at ours aha and there's a slip road you've gotta come on to, there's a slip road you go down ain't there? aha you slowly make your way out, don't got by, you look over your right shoulder aha that's erm, that's a slip road what you, and then, your next lane you stay in that lane, only use a right and then if you want to overtake you go into right and then back into right oh I mean never stay in the right hand lane why? because you overtake is speeding there, the left hand lane isn't, the right hand lane is for overtaking what happens at our speed? well you stick on the right hand lane when no one overtaking that's not causing trouble for us is it? Where a junction has a mini roundabout, it will have a sign placed before the give way. Boxed junctions have criss cross yellow lines painted on the road. You must not enter the box you stay behind it if your exit road or lane from, from is not clear, but you may enter the box when you want to turn right and are prevented from doing so. Junctions controlled by police or a traffic warden, when all traffic is held up by police officer or traffic warden you must not go left or right until you are signalled to do so. Junctions controlled by traffic lights do not go forward when the traffic lights are green unless there is room for you to clear the junction safely, never go forward when the red, amber lights are shown together, when traffic lights have a green arrow filter signal, do not get into the lane when filtering is allowed unless you . Well, before you turn right use your mirror to make sure you know the position on movement of the traffic behind you. When it is safe, give a right turn signal and as soon as you can do so take safely, take up position just left of the middle of the road or in the space marked by right turned vehicles, if you can leave room for other vehicles to pass on the left, wait until there is a safe gap between you and any oncoming vehicle, looking, look out of sight for motor cyclists and pedestrians, then make a turn, but do not cut the corner as people like pedestrians crossing the road in which you are turning. Remember mirror, signal, manoeuvre. When approaching a roundabout I'm not testing you any more I was laughing at her, that fake thing she's got on it I'm not testing you any more I'll test you then What's the you know carriage a single carriage way? mm now a a dual carriage way that has three lanes, what lane do you use? the left right, what one you use for overtaking? mm? what one you use for overtaking? right middle lane all three lanes is the taught now, middle middle lane, you never stay in it either so what's the last it's just one for? turn right turn, aye see the one like, you know, on the opposite side of the road, you've got as much right to use that as he has right on a single carriageway where a road has four, four lanes, do not use on a single carriageway where a lane has got four lanes yeah, if a single carriageway or has four more lanes, do not use the right hand path, you use that one and that one, but don't use them two why?er, if plain English that right in it? it's the same, same as er three way one so you've gotto take on fast moving traffic or turn right?right are we asking some more questions?, I don't know that much really, I don't know right I I'm gonna ask you some stopping distances I don't know them well you're gonna learn them, cos you've got, they, they ask you straight away that a built up area mm? what's the speed limit for a built up area? thirty single carriage ways? fifty and by the way it's not seventy the coast road mm? who said it was seventy up the coast road? dunno was it you or Don? I don't know well he says it's the national speed limit, seventy with the black line it is aye that's what it'll have a speed li , your national speed limit will be sixty but you don't do it it's a single, it's a two, it's only a single lane traffic car what? you know when you say, when you are, I'm positive it was you and your cos er he turned round and he says er, oh yeah no the it's seventy that's what mile do you do on it?, like some people might think the national speed limit, but it's not that's fifty or sixty national speed limit on the tunnel it's a dual carriage way, it's two lane it's got fifty it's a seventy is it seventy? it's seventy like it's a dual carriageway well it tells you and if it's any less than seventy no, I'm sure one of you says it was seventy for the coast road, it's only a two way traffic it's a two way traffic, a single lane traffic so it's classed as sixty but it tells you on the thing, it, a white thing with a line through it right means seventy though Darren motorways doesn't it?, eh?, well that's got one of them on well it shouldn't have, it should have sixty on it, it's only single carriageway it's got er, it's got one of them white things with a black line on it I'm sure the national speed limit, aye seventy you've got two, that's not your, you've got two national speed limits, you've got a sixty and a seventy, seventy is for like a dual carriageway and a motorway, sixty is a single carriageway cos it's only two way traffic so white line with a black thing through could be just sixty it could be sixty, if you're on a if you're on a two way traffic right mot what's on a motorway? if you're on a motorway at seventy or a dual carriageway if you're on, if you're on a motorway or a carriageway, right it's seventy it's seventy unless stated otherwise right mm now if you go along the coast road and it's, you look at the lamp post right they have a little white circle with a black line in it aha you must look at your lanes, you've only got like two lanes haven't ya? aha coming down and going about sixty, shows you there, single carriageways sixty oh dual carriageway is er double that yeah you always stay to your left, only use the right lane to overtake or turn to right you asking me? I ask you, right a single carriageway, what's your speed for that? see seventy on the crossroad well you, you would of got done , no, mind, some of them do when when I know that's why you would of got done if the police had stopped stopping what? what's a single, single carriageway? thirty, sixty dual carriageway seventy motorway? seventy right, I wanna ask you some signs before, before you go onto the your speed limits, I wanna know like when I do, you know when you've done your speed limits and you stop aha I want your thinking distance, your stopping distance and your overall, right aha even if you get them wrong, I'll put them right, it's the only way you'll learn Hi ya hi ya hi hi ya hi ya hi ya Ee what's Darren doing down I know he's dressed an all oh dressed er, ooh, hello there right circle right aha with forty in the middle forty mile an hour that's the maximum speed you can do oh aye white circle with a black line, diagonal national speed limit yeah like a fifty pence piece one right aha hexagon with a stop stop, under where's John gone? he's out where? a triangle travel the night now he what? travel in night what do you mean? he's gone getting a Sierra to far away pubs and that what he's still in the pubs? I know Sharon told us he'll you know him and Jimmy's new travelling night I mean i next door I think Jimmy's turn it's worse than that in it? they've got eight hundred Tommy eight hundred they've gone they gone where?, to Peacock it's for the first three they had to save they've gotta beat what? oh will Pam pay weekly do you think? I'm gonna pay it up in one Tommy, I'm getting a six, I'm getting a six weeks on a B reg mm have a full years test on it mm full years tax it'll have all the what car is it? tyres and all that done mm you know that new thing with, your catalytic converter aye it'll have all that done to it, for eight hundred pound yeah mm, mm good nice so when you getting that?, August getting August and I got some belts in the back an all mam I can have it before that like, but I, I'll wait until me loans finished just the test force now ah oh I know, I'll be passed before August well passed before do you think you will Sharon? no she doesn't think no I know mum, I don't think I'll be passed before August even if I don't I had a funny dream about you you will Sharon I don't feel as though I no your sit and smooth Elsa and I went off in heed, I am Tommy what? I si , sitting there like that had a bad dream then who, who when's that?, is that the dream? what, but, it's about the Co-Op, I went to the Co-Op in me dream, nothing but have on, and I was getting some of them what must have been a monthly thing this is crazy aye writing my name and address and everything and then she went away, she says oh won't be a minute, she come back she says oh it is Mrs , no Mrs yeah I was laughing, she was rolling around on the floor laughing, yes I said oh it's and then what happened?, you come back and then I come back and then I went to see them again and they were all on a great big table as though they were celebrating a party and Joyce said er and you and you went, what did you say? she's, I says oh it's Mrs here have we done enough with the signs? no I tell you what what's a red circle then? what's a red triangle? what's a small triangle a triangle with give way in it he doesn't he does, he wants those smarties and he knows, he knows where they'll be give way on what? on coming traffic what do you want? you give, give way to the to the right no what do you want? with oncoming traffic on the major road well that's what I wanna know, that's right, that's all I wanna know, never give way to traffic on the, on the right, you could pull out on it, if indicating two cars in a circle a black and a red one she seems to be struggling an all doesn't she? no, something, something she said er something, well I says don't know oh it's a no overtaking next day aye and she said aye and you'll have to start saving this month a circle a red circle aye with a little red arrow sarcastic git goes up and a big black arrow goes down I was gonna say so we don't have to they've got right of way they waiting it's all should it? should it? you give priority to the vehicles on opposite side motorbike on the top and a car on the bottom in a circle no overtaking motor cycles no motor vehicles what's the one with the car in? eh? what's the one with the car in? no vehicles, cars no vehicles except scooters, motorbikes and moped erm did I ask you that one with er, it's a red circle right mm, mm it's a blue background mm, mm and it's got a red X in it no entry that one there you'll see it on motorways I know what it is but right, hang on, hang on then clever shit, just spare me here right, your wrong, well what do you think it is? er, fair enough that's er Darren I thought that was a old er how er now know this I did not know scho is it not no no I've seen it and I cannot think Sharon you must know this on a motorway like Sharon no, it's seventy mile speed limit you phone Martha? me dad was here your speed limit one er is white with a black arrow, straight black through Sharon, you must know this on a motorway I've seen it before I cannae think ha lights no no, but it no, no, no you know what it means? you cannot stop, you are in a no stopping zone right and then when it's got that and it's got end on the bottom here, at the end of the stopping zone, you've got to know that on a motorway right right no stopping zone right I wannae know what I wannae know it goes like that right what? like black line like aha and then it goes like that on each side, what does that mean? left and right turn, oh there's no turn no, I tell you what it'll be easier if it's going into one lane road narrows it's going into one lane aye, you're wrong on that, it's going in a single lane no, think where it is?, two lane traffic, where is it?, it's a carriageway in it? er dual carriageway carriageway ahead no, it ends, your off the dual carriageway well that's what I said, you can only go one way carriageway ahead well it's that's not the same Sharon is it?, cos you've failed your test erm end of dual, end of dual carriage way end of dual carriage way I just said it, I'm saying it end of dual carriageway what's a black arrow pointing up over with a black arrow pointing down over in a triangle? two lane traffic no, but what?, you've got that bit right, two way traffic straight ahead, right so that's fine like if you're coming off a dual carriageway, maybe you'll see that and what's it running that way? and that way? left and right hand turn no huh go on that way and that way well cross a one way road cross, crossroads no, no, he would of failed what? it crosses a one way road, you're coming up right and there's a one way road going like that say, and there's a one way road coming along, it's got a two way traffic on the top, but it crosses it aye do you know what I mean? ahead aha there's two way traffic where you've gotta cr cross the one way road you've gotta cross the one way road so that's two arrows going that way aha right oh well you know what them are well ask us Darren, I mightn't just straight with a little tiny snip out of it eh? it's er, it's a thing like that with a little tiny, a little tiny bend from the middle, no, does that look like a bend to you, that's a bend can I, slip road no yeah you've got to go for size of the for turning off traffic merges from that side you mean like a slip road? slip roads when you turn off aye, well like, like traffic merging from it though don't sigh what's a blue box with three white lines in it? three way traffic you have to know that on the motorway an all three lanes that's it what, with three lines across it? three, it means you've got three for every lane, it's a hundred yards to your stopping distance, to you come to a junction you have to start you never see start with a hundred you never see them on the motorways mm, mm like you say you just get onto that right and it's, that's three hundred yards and you get the next one that's two hundred yards and a hundred yards until you stop, to the junction cos does that you mean you've gotta stop it counts they're, they're markers to count down you've gotta start breaking when you see three no no one one, as soon as you get, well you've gotta work out what your speed is then, break, break your speed down to your stopping distance, say it's thirty, you wannae stop slowing down at forty five feet right, that's what you have to know erm well Darren you're cramming too much in me head right now well ask me some then it's cramming too much in, I'm getting confused, I get well I wanna learn new stopping distances here, no I'm not being funny Sharon you know them, so why you asking? well I want you to learn them it doesn't take much to learn them either going to learn them I used to know them right, here's your stopping distances read them, I'll give you till five to ten, got ten minutes what that mean twen , is it metres or what? in metres go in feet go in feet it's better which ones that?, the red or the black? what's the black? mile an hour twenty, thinking distance twenty, what's it? is it?, oh think twenty, twenty, forty I want the distance, black take the distance the black well look the black is feet the black is feet right right, twenty mile an hour right, shh twenty the reds thinking distance in it? no there's one of them thinking distance in it? you've got stopping distance, thinking distance overall you see sshh dead easy should know that an all three coloured line at the motorway, see the next, its stop, you're not supposed to stop, you're not supposed to stop the flow of traffic you don't go on a motorway for driving lessons thirty miles, it's forty you only drive thirty feet is it? in the town, thirty miles, sixty feet is it?is it Sharon? don't thirty mile, that's sixty feet is it Sharon? shh, er I'm trying to learn mine thirty miles thirty mile an hour it's seventy five feet seventy five seventy five I thought it sixty something, in fact I thought, I was gonna say seventy seven how'd ya work it out, is there a way to work it out aye how? twenty mile an hour right aha, goes to forty your thinking distance, right your thinking distance is twenty aha right aha your stopping distance is thirty five no it's not your stopping distance for twenty miles an hour is twenty no it is and your overall is forty well it doesn't say that twenty, twenty, forty what's that mean, so you, what you doing twenty mile an hour you think that you can stop in twenty mile an hour, at twenty feet at twenty feet is you start braking it down and then what's that mean braking a hundred, a hundred and forty feet for seventy it takes twenty feet twenty feet to stop it's a hundred and forty feet then overall stopping distance, what does that mean then? that's forty feet what does that mean? that's seventy miles an hour at forty at forty feet right aha you start slowing it down right, right when? and then, when you get to twenty feet, right? aha? now you start thinking then when you come to the junction and also you're slowing down, by the time you've done that, them two stages you should have all your gears ready and you should be prepared for it so how'd ya work it out? at seventy mile it should be your hundred and forty feet shouldn't have no you shouldn't it should be three hundred and fifteen, the overall length, seventy is your think, thinking distance for that is seventy and your stopping distance should be two, four, five how'd ya work it out Darren, you gonna tell us or not? it's so simple right, well it is ere move up I have er, I know, forty, a hundred and twenty two,seventy five a hundred seventy five and three work on all these right aha twenty miles an hour right is forty, right yeah to get there, right thirty mile an hour is seventy five, right aha forty is a hundred and twenty, fifty is one seven five, sixty is two forty, seventy is three fifty right aha now ask you twenty, what, the thinking distance for twenty mile an hour right forty no it's not what then? twenty twenty right, now your braking distance is twenty an all, right yeah no it's forty, twenty, twenty, forty right I can get that one alright thirty, right thirty, forty five and seventy five right, ask us, ask us any of them, you think the distance to stop twenty twenty twenty what's your braking distance? twenty twenty is your braking distance and your overall should be the there in the middle, which is forty, that's cos oh you add one aye there and it's erm thirty thirty, forty five and seventy five, thirty, forty, fifty, sixty, seventy five now forty is a hundred and twenty, right aha so forty, forty mile that would be an hour right, so, your thinking distance would be the same mile as what?, your distance is forty and then you want take that off and what have you got, it leaves you eighty as your braking distance oh all the time seventy, right I know your thinking distance is seventy, now what's seventy ov no let let me, let me right, I'll ask you then right forty, er thirty see learning all them see Elsa what? didn't even know her stopping distances summat you'll learn when you're in the car though no, he'll can't, he won't learn you Tommy oh you've gotta, you've got to learn that yourself oh this is just for your test when they ask you but you should know you're not saying well I'm a hundred and seventy five feet away no, but you should be able to guess I a hundred and seventy five feet what, close enough as it is, I know what one metre and that's about it how long would you say this street is? I've got no idea dad, honest to god thirty, forty metres the whole street is about two hundred and fifty metres long it's not two hundred and fifty, it can't be that long it's not that long dad no, I suppose a hundred and fifty I knew those distances hundred and fifty metres no, I would say about fif , forty, fifty why you nodding? no it's over a hundred it's not about ninety it's twenty five metres from and back, I say seventy five at the most no fif , I'll say sixty I said forty six six, sixty metres do you know what your braking, stopping distance well I from what it is in the snow? what? you know erm, your stopping distances no in the snow? twice the distance is it? times ten is it? seventy mile an hour takes sshh three thousand feet to stop Soon find out, cos you do it all the morning and stuff. Have you started it? Yeah. Oh! Don't see that was so easy. You don't need to work it out you just sit That's alright. all I I sat down and visualized and then did it. And now I still se , need to do a couple more drawings . You go, you're going so slow. Besides, if you didn't understand how to work out that questions are asked straight away. He's seriously deficient in what he should be learning cos he should know that at least. But shit! I've gotta do another registration. What? I mean, not another registration, I've gotta do another . Yeah but you've got the cards haven't you? Mm. Yeah, I haven't. I've gotta finish one as well. We've gotta finish a wo , a, gotta finish the work on a book and then do the test and answers, and then do a whole . When for? When for? Friday. Not, yeah for next week. I got, I've got a we , I've got ten days to do that in. I've gotta bring it in on Tuesday. Where d'ya get on you dickhead? Yeah. That's my top. Ah! Alright ? Yeah. And where were you this morning then, for work? You weren't in Geography. When? Just now. Well,well, some people didn't bring their coats in today. Cos we're so tough! a coat though. But I've, I've still got about two hours, at least er, to do. I've gotta right, I've gotta do at least erm . Are you sure? Yeah. What day is it, Thursday? I like the way you just . Well this advertising Yeah but the humanities sa two asa , assignments I got an extension. extension. An extension? I have, I asked for an extension because like, in, in light of my present mathematical ne , need for seriousness, for seriously doing a hell of a lot of maths homework Mm. so that I can do my exam. They told me to do our exams early. I'd like . You know, a year early. Shut up ! Such a tosser ! . What? So what, so you just look at it and do, look at the the grade eight rubbish on that sheet that we're doing? Basically, the secret is to do What you're asked to do. two plans , and and choose one of them, with a reason, for why you chose it. Yeah. That's you need that That's crap! to get an A in that thing. Erm, I don't reckon I'll get all A's this time. No. I might do, but I doubt it. The thing is you, you'll get them. Er, he's not gonna give it to you twice though is he cos I don't reckon he would di give it to you twice. He don't, he don't give it to you twice? What? Don't you reckon? No he could, but he's not gonna want to. Is he? I hope it's worth A's but I don't think it is. Next time that's on that should It's best not to notice it. All these are smashed you know. What? All these are smashed. And they've only been here, what, two weeks? Not even two weeks. What that? No not that one. It's a new one. Yeah I know. Yeah, but this hasn't it sho , it, first put it up with no glass, so they put the glass in then it looked like a mirror Mm. and then it got, and then it got smashed. But all of them I know are smashed. Cos there's one at two, or three bus stops back, you know, by Lisa's an , by Lisa's house. That's what . Yeah. Where's the fucking bus ! They've smashed it, smashed up the bus stop. It's entertainment. bus stop . Shut up ! Ah! I've left my music homework as well. I shall have to go to the house. Yeah, I've gotta do music homework because What's that? ah I've gotta invent a, a melody. I'll probably ring up James and ask him what he's done. I've got to invent a melody about erm all of minor scales. Which isn't actually hard but I have to write it down as well. And I ho , I would have done this on Tuesday when I actually worked out a melody but I didn't manage a bit of paper so I couldn't write it down. Mhm. Which is a major bummer. Why haven't yous got a part in, why are you are, auditioning for West Side Story? What? Why are you auditioning for West Side Story? I don't have time. Why didn't you audition er Oh. Erm, er did you have the music, did you have music homework Josie? I can't hear her. What she say? Well you're not gonna tape anything! I am. All through music, non fucking stop. My only thing in life will be for the next hour and forty minutes fuck, I live to tape, okay? But it's gonna be boring. My conversation will be a lot more interesting won't they? Our registrations are funny! Lo , la la la. Our registrations are funny Peter! Yeah but if he lends it out he'll Yeah exactly. Exactly, you know, and this is so weird hearing yourself talk and Cos er, if you tape, cos I'll if your voice comes in the conversation I've got it all on tape now you stupid cow! Josie, erm have you erm, erm there it is. Hello. Have you erm, done any, did you have music homework? Yeah, I didn't do it. No. Don't Peter, it hurts. me or you? Do I really care whether it hurts you, honestly? Do you really reckon? Oh no! My dad used to work erm and this bloke used to like a pint of erm, oh I can't remember Export. export , yeah, I can't remember what it's like. Right? And there's a little dog with a , so that's why he likes a drink. Right? Oh yeah, and his dog, yeah likes it as well yeah, they used to leave a tray out for him every night, yeah when it was closing time the dog knew every time it closed, it wo , I mean if they closed at lunchtime it wouldn't come down it would only come down when they closed up at night. And it goes on, it goes on every night right? If you put a pint of beer out for him he wouldn't drink it. You put a little drop of lemonade in it, he'll drink it. And until you, if you just lemonade, wouldn't drink it. But if yo , if it was bitter and a bit of lemonade it would drink it, nothing else. Er, you know the same thing they tried down at Yeah. got my dad erm er, just drink pints after pints of Guinness. He just sits there lapping up all these like bowls of He does? Guinness. The dog. Yeah but this this this dog will only drink it if it had a little bit of lemonade in. It's so funny . The dog's permanently drunk. It sits there going . The dog's like Oh yeah . What are you doing? Yeah, it attacks anything . Any fizzy drink? What? ? No. What about spirits? No she doesn't, no. She doesn't actually eat anything that's actually bad for her. Oh and Guinness isn't bad for you? Pints and pints of Guinness? Oh. What it doesn't drink alcohol? How does it know how does it know if it's bad for you or not? I don't know, it's jus , it's like anything that's bad she doesn't seem drink. Get some lemonade right and it. Just to Yeah but she won't. She won't. You get some lemonade with cyanide in it and some Coke with cyanide in and see what she drinks. She doesn't like the gas. Flat lemonade. She still won't drink it. Why not? I dunno. I try giving her Coke all the time because she looks like she's begging for my Coke. Yeah? If I pour her some Coke she won't drink it. But the guy is an arsehole also. But he's just, he's just, he's like, he's so you can read what he's done. I mean, you can understand him, so easily. It started off Acts like a complete dick to try and get attention. And then he went slightly relaxed and now he's being a dick again. Like, you know, this morning in erm language he jumps off a table screaming, ow, ow, ow! No. For a start he shouldn't have been on the table. Secondly, he doesn't need to that's just stupid. The one that you're, you're, you're taking, right, just means that you you . Yes. No, oh oh, you can't. No. I thought you said she did it. Mm mm, wo oh . Right, and the other thing sorry, but he also reckons he's God about girls. He reckons he knows everything. He's not. I don't like Elsa either. Why not? Ah! She's just so irritating. She's just so Fuck would be good one. Everything's come out my bag. Bloody way! Aargh! Come on Peter get on the bus. Ah shit! My sister really needed that. She, cos like, cos you know like these interesting lighters when she went to France? Yeah. Yeah. In, in the science museum she saw these really nice lighters and she comes back and my mum's in the same room and she says, I nearly bought you a lighter. Thanks ma , you know I really want my mum to hear that. Well And she lost my fucking camera! Make her pay for it. No, I'll get a, I'll get a replacement off my parents, but sorry, she changed the film cos sixteen pictures of it were my ones cos I hadn't used the film Yeah but some of them , some of them might be of Spain . Of Spain. I hate her! Ah no! Ah no! No, but she changed the film before she lost it so it's alright. Did she? It's like, one day developing right and she hasn't got round to collecting them yet. It's been like a week. What is the point of paying for one day developing? Yeah but er, you pay, you pay so much for twenty four Exactly. hours. And if you go, if you're not gonna pick them up the next day. It's like my mum, she paid to get them developed right and about two weeks later she goes in that's how much it costs for a week. I went, oh no! About six, costs six quid to develop overnight Yes. so he said he no, she said And she had to pay six quid for No, she paid five seventy five that was all. Why? Because she, it would have been twenty four hours. Yeah but you said it was six. Yeah, five seventy nine though. You know, erm Ah. Almost six. you know. Yeah. She collected it a week later? Mm! One hour time. One hour developing next year. But Alex . Alex's family, the s, they are weird. I am sorry. They are a slightly weird family. No, they're always late actually. What's weird about being late? No, they actually, listen, listen. Like, all their films came, like Alex's film of er Spain empties the camera basically puts it in this pile they keep in a drawer somewhere of films, okay? Every now and then when they feel like it, take a handful of films and get them developed. It's like the re , most latest ones have been from like six years ago. Just bloody irritating. I couldn't , I can't . Yeah. Really, the week before, every now and again I wanted to stick . Just the way we were. Still Alright. Darren. Are you going in town Sally? Oh yeah. But Miss, have you ever had Miss ? No. You're so lucky right. She didn't believe,sh , we'll drop our theory off, round for tomorrow night. Her the , er she believed non-competitive . How can have non-competitive ? It doesn't work. The whole thing, the reason you go, do so well in it Yeah. is cos you compete against other people so you do loads of matrices. But she had er the non-competitive version. So how did you work that out? Well she didn't want it competitive cos you'll be doing it against yourself not everyone else. Which is alright as a theory but it doesn't work cos you don't get any work done. See what I'm saying? What she wants to talk about, everyone has to do matrix or learn more of the crap. No, it was just, she didn't want you to be competitive about it. So she didn't expe , you know the ma , matrix system of levels and stuff I didn't fully understand that until the fourth year when I went with Miss cos she never explained it because she didn't reckon you needed to know. She's a bitch! See ya! I was walking to school, right cos saw this in the shop Is that back on? cos sp sp , the bus strike. But I thought that was Friday? No it's today I think. Ah. Saw it, saw it in the window, I had to buy it! Worgh! Just couldn't resist it. Why did you buy that? I've no idea, I just got You've got a recording the sound again? What? gotta go out. Oh! What, on C D? Yeah but I want No. I don't want tape, I want Oh my God! My did you bother I do really? It's just that I dunno , I just saw it and thought, I have to buy it. Oh look Spikey, look! Here he comes. Tom, you're late! Mr has done. He's gone home sort of. He I was walking in Hiya Tom! I was walking in and he comes past on my bike on his bike,not my bike . What's the bastard doing with my bike ! Do you ha , do yo , is the seventy three running? I dunno. Do you go to seventy three? You had to walk from Yes. home? I What? What you had to walk? I had to walk sa What's all this then? Tom. What? Can you try and work out why he's at school? What? Can you try and work out why he's at school cos he baffles me! He just wants to come. Where is he? Er, dunno. So I gave it to him, only he came past on his bike. Did you sa you say Darren came? But I don't want to go home. How did you get here? Er, bus and walk. When d'ya do it? Let me see. Does that mean Cassie got here at half ten? Yes. And,and . And Patsy? Although I'm not . Matchsticks squares. Did you do matchstick squares again? No. Oh! Am I brilliant then? Yeah I, I can hear ya. I'll be up there. Besides . I've got to see Oh well why not? Trying to Ha. I handed in Matchbox, cos for some reason I still had it. Bloody lucky I did cos a , that's the only mark scheme I had was my Matchbox. Look what I bought today in the shop. Oh oh, you're a bit sad . I just saw it, I thought I must buy that. Could just leave it on his desk but he might not come up here. Mm mm. There's no one in the staff room. Yeah . Might as well Look in first Look in first and if he Ask Miss . Ask Miss , now I know it's hard cos sh He might be in there. Mr cos he came yeah. Hello. Right thank you. Lovely. That is Alright then. while I'm here. Okay. Alright then. Alright. Well done. Thank you very much. What do you wanna do now? Well I gotta wait till ten thirty. Why? Give this back. And then I and erm probably go shopping. Go home and watch Good Morning Vietnam. Do my science Oh that's good. do my science work sheet and geography work sheet while I'm watching that. Do some tidying up. Maybe ta , sort the clothes if I can be bothered. Watch Nuns on the Run if the guy across the road erm gets back in time. Erm, and sleep. What else you gonna do? Dunno. What? Dunno. Cos I've gotta make up for the sleep I lost erm yesterday. What? So I jus , I just didn't do it. I just,I started yesterday about eight o'clock and was up till one doing it. What? Ma , er match . Yeah, I dunno if that's open. Ha , well how far away does James live? Why? Well he'll the first place . He's li , he says he up till about one, two in the morning on Thursday night Yeah. doing, finishing off all the erm course work. That's a good point actually. I just don't know wha , just don't know what to say. It's not, it's not as if he's got a Oh. Haven't they got a game? No they're playing here today because erm Hughey's got to do math's homework. Who? Oh sure. Phillip. I'm going now. I'll see you then. If you're lucky you'll be home at twelve. Yeah. We might go through some of them. See ya then. Yeah. Bye. Why are you in? What? Why are you in? Drama. What you gotta do? I've got an exam Thursday. And you gotta rehearse? Why are you in? Oh. Gotta hand in, had to hand in some investigations for maths. Hey, you feeling better? Yeah. Well it had to I suppose. Handed in my maths. Well you had to, to go then? Oh God! Yeah. That's probably why . Oh. Is that Peter? Oh! He's got school? Is that, oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Oh God! Here they come. Oh fucking hell! L block I thought. Someone else must be going. Aren't you home? No, I'll wait for you. Oh alright. I'll converse. Right. Converse. I wanna go, I'm going up town. Go up to Miss thingy. What? Go on. Go on. Who Miss ? Missy, what d'ya call her? ? Miss Miss Hitler. Miss ? Or, or Miss, who had an affair with the drama teacher. Miss . I just said Miss over and over Yeah. again! Yeah. cos they've gotta be in as well. Are you still conversing with that? Yeah. Okay. They've gotta be in today as well. What? They've all gotta be in today as well. Er er, you know I told you that thingy? What? Erm, where you go in to it completely and you Yeah. and me not being able to say the word basically Yeah. D'ya, d'ya wanna talk in here or talk outside? I don't give a fuck! Well, it's just probably people can hear. Well you can't see them coming, they won't hear. The thing is I sa , I don't fancy any more of this, you know Talk not bothered. I've got, well done. It's locked! What are you here for? What? Is it, you know the lot well all the other girls have gone upstairs. said stay down for a minute. What are you doing here? Handing in math's course work. Hey! Hey! Eh! Eh ! Erm Mica. Mico, yeah. Erm who's idea,ha , Merco, who's idea was the parrot sketch? What? Ha , is anyone in your year doing the parrot sketch for the entertainment. Ah no, I don't think so. I dunno. We don't know what we're doing yet. You, don't you decide? Nope. We had to work ourselves, we did the parrot sketch. We had to write up the parrot sketch in English and this French translated in French for us. No you're upstairs then? Yeah. Erm, cos all the other girls are still up out of the whole says on the letter it's wri , it said L block. Did it? So I have to go upstairs then? Yeah. We've gotta up only done one si , tape. It's amazing what you tape. Sir. What? Are you? I should be. Mm. I'm telling you, why am I Well are you what? Why am I not trying to go out Cos it's important. Ah? What? I dunno. Oh come on, don't I don't know! That's it. But he couldn't work out why I was in school? What? Because you like her. Do you like her? Yeah. Well, there's no problem. I wanna sit down. Do you find her attractive? Relatively. Well, that's no problem then. She's got to Except when it it's not Well it's not fair when close your eyes. Who? Her. It's her. Hi. Hi. Where's the French exchange group? I dunno whether she's gonna come. Dunno. I think it's in the hall. Oh. Come on! That's where everyone else seems to have gone. What is it? Muhammad! Ah no! Leave him alone! Better let go else he's gonna get really He's got, he's got my money! He's got my money! Here he comes with a black eye. Must have. Yeah? So? I don't wanna see her. I don't like it. So close your eyes. Ye , no her ears. I wonder where she's gone? Hiya. Hello Peter! What are you doing here? Math's course work. Tt. Oh oh! Have to hand it in. Well fair enough. Cos where yo What's happening today, is it baker day or like insect day or Ah , yeah insect day. Alright. Ooh God! I hope she has fun. I hope she breaks her neck! That's nice. The question is are you actually interes , attracted to her enough to want to, you know what are you I suppose. Why? No problem. For a start, is she interested in you? Or she is going with you cos they force her. No, not particularly. No. Erm ? Oh I didn't have time. I'm getting trainers boy. Wo! We don't need you for two weeks. What? We don't need to for two weeks. Why? We haven't got P E for two weeks. I know that. I can start on the on the changing room. Sad you are. Why am I sad when I'm getting some new trainers? Oh here comes short arse. Who's short arse? . the dick. I do not wanna see right. I do not want Muhammad! So why d'ya come to school okay? You knew the French exchange kids were gonna be here. I didn't know. No you did. I forgot. I forgot. No you so I forgot! no, yeah you knew originally. Fuck off! I forgot. It's not my fa , so is that, is that my fault? Are you going that film? When? Today. I dunno. Are you? I want to. Well tt I could, but there's certain problems. Such as? Such as I, hang on what? Where's the French exchange? Er, L block. Am I late? Yeah, you were supposed He's a tosser! be here at nine thirty. He's a tosser! Don't believe what he says. Well what's the, You better run you know. Eh? They're all sitting down and stuff. We looked in the window. In the hall. They're all in the hall. He's gonna get well pissed off! Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah I know. He's gonna storm out of there. You bastard Peter! You bastard! What? You bastard Peter! You bastard! No, cos the thing is my dad wants to go and see a film sometime near my birthday. So erm, which I don't mind cos What film? Dunno. But I don't wanna see a film that my parents are gonna watch with me. I wanna watch Well , just tell them what one you want. I mean See, I wanna see Accidental Hero. Please! That looks good. I know, but I mean, come on! Well what else is on actually? There's the Jungle Book. Yes! We could take Warner. No. Who's that? Dunno. Looks like Sarah driving. Who is driving? Oh my It does , doesn't it? God! It's probably little Sarah. Who is that? Who's that? ! Who is she? That, that girl. I mean, the woman driving looks like Looks like Sa Sarah so much, my God it's frightening! Has that just come on? What? Has that just come on? No, it's not. Going the wrong way. That could be her. No cos erm I need to do some stuff today. Like, I need to get some rope. Rope. What d'ya mean? Suicide. Oh right. No such thing as a much math's course work actually. No handing it in. Oh yeah! But I've gotta return this. Right. Why is she wearing sandals? Why not? Oh they're not sandals, they're flip-flops. Flip-flops, same thing. Are you coming? Shall we walk? No I need to get some rope cos Can we walk please? Shall we walk? Why? As in, I, I can't be bothered to go down for like half an hour. Where are you walking though? I dunno. Just I need to walk that way and and that way. I was gonna wait for Josie and that lot. Why? Josie and Cassie. Yeah, they're, they're fucking gonna come at They're not gonna be in, they're gonna be in till ten. until about ten thirty five. Yeah I know. Jesus! Come back at ten twenty then. But ee, if Miss comes in I don't have to do it, I just hand it over to Miss and bugger off. Who's that? Aargh! Aargh! Run for it! Where you gonna walk then? I really haven't a fucking Oh ye clue. hang on, we could go and see your What? Might as well go and see Janet. Nah! Why not? Nah! Too dangerous. What d'ya mean, too dangerous? Ah! I don't wanna bugger up the What? plan. What? I don't wanna bugger up the plan. What plans? The plans we've got with her, as in . Right. You mean, you can go out with her but you're not allowed to talk her, only Zang is, otherwise you might jeopardize the situation? Nah, nah, no, no, no. Jeopardize the situation. I'm not going out with her at the moment. Ah! But I should be by around Tuesday night. You said by Monday last time. Did I? Well I lied. Yeah , you did. Well I lied. Smells nice though. Well can you prove that? Yes you can. Smells yeah I can actually. Yeah ! Can you? Listen to a plonker! Nah. Actually it depends when you said it. When did you say it? Ah? Probably said it while I was like, yeah,we , you know, while you were at the I don't think so. I might have. Yeah. Oh shit! You, don't tell me you haven't done any dubbing? No I haven't. Ah you cunt! Problem? Yes! It's a problem. I wanted to have some hyper copies of her voice. Oh really? Oh well. Is there any da , dubbing sort of place anywhere? Yeah. Tamsins? French. French. Is French open? And, is there ? No I mean on Mondays. What? I mean on Mondays, French. Could go to Tamsins. Yeah, we could. Do you want to? No, no, not particularly . Could go to Lisa's. Has she erm, recovered from Malaria? Oh shame! Exactly what I thought. I lau , I laughed, you know, I laughed hard. And I,i i , it's fucking sad, she's pretty sick. Sounds rough. But I can probably look good with a . Hang on! Hang on! You've only just gone off ro , erm Tamsin . And trying for Janet, yeah. Try and keep cont ,so co , some control of your hormones. No I can't . I've realized that I've never been out of love. Oh! Good for you. But you've never been loved. True. So we'll walk in the general direction of Tamsin . Alright. Okay. Has What she got a though? Has she got a though? ah, but what's the ? I dunno. We might decide to go to her house. Ah well I've gotta come back for ten, so Stay. Ah yeah, well, I gotta leave, start coming back at ten. Alright, stay for ten minutes and then,can come back. Hang on, I think yo , in England or in erm where they What? go? Tunisia. Tunisia. In Tunisia in hospital? Oh! Shit! That's pretty good. No, no, no, no. No, no. She, she's in hospital here I think. So she came back with Malaria? Yeah. I'm not, I'm not sure. I only saw her sister. Why didn't she have jabs? I don't have a clue! Balls! It's balls! That's why I laughed. Balls! Look, you laughed, I laughed. Right, when I went to Turkey, I had three jabs before I went away and every two days I took two tablets. Ma anti-malaria tablets. Oh bless her! What? Well don't say that's overreacting cos I don't give a fuck! Don't give a fuck cos you could say that's overreacting but I haven't got malaria and Lisa has. So there's the proof for it. Ah shit! So that is so fucking sad! She's got malaria! Yeah, but it can be treated in this country. What? But, can't they treat it in this country? Yeah, they probably can. Yeah. Erm, cos then, they're doing tests to see if she has got it, but it's highly, highly likely that she has. So who have you phoned up then? Nobody. Zang told me. Oh Zang phoned you? How did Zang find out? Zang phoned Lisa. Oh Christ! He doesn't waste time does he ? Why? Just cos he phoned her. Well we know he fancies her right? No. He doesn't. He doesn't? He doesn't. Oh! They're friends. Do you want a Werther's Original? Yeah, please. I could roll this through the mud, spit on it and put it through dog's dirtisisism and most people would still say yes please. True? True. That was so funny! Ah God! I'm ill. How come? I'm bloody ill. Sore throat. Great! Ha aargh! These really help. Yuk! But blame John. No, on the letter though it did say er wha no I had to ring Sasha you know. I rang Sasha for my sister. Yeah? Funny thing was, Alex answered the phone and he knows my voice on the phone easily see. Yeah. Alex answers the phone. Hello. Hello, can I speak to Sasha please? Which I thought was quite funny. And I presume that he didn't? I don't think he's didn't say anything. He was probably crying though. But they got oh fuck that! they gotta be there from nine thirty till one. Do you believe that? Well They must use a . I wouldn't mind just one up there. Oh shut up! Look at Muhammad! I feel fine. There is a limit to how much I can take! No there isn't! There is actually because and you're coming bloody close to it. Dogs. The only thing I don't like. Oh. Tt. Shall we, erm have an excuse by saying you wanna co converse. She might be still asleep though. Yeah, probably. Alex is. Mm mm. At a rough guess. I think he's definitely asleep ! We don't need, we don't need the laws of erm we don't need the laws of physics as proof Alex is, is still in bed. I haven't got anything of, talking to my parents right, cos I just don't really. Oh yeah. I don't hold conversations with my parents. Mhm. Ha . Did you see Good Morning Vietnam? Mm mm, no. No? Missed it. I saw a bit. I would have watched it if I didn't have maths. Good morning Vietnam! I, I watched the first ten minutes which was really funny cos as they're going along in the truck ah look at that woman! Ah! Yes! Oh what a lovely body! And, and he goes no we can't, can we stop? Please! Please! Stop! Stop! Stop! And the guy driving the truck says, no we can't we've got an important meeting. Okay. So, the driver actually speeds up okay? And then, another woman, exactly the same clothes Aha. same hat, so it looks like the same woman so he says, oh my God! There she is again! She's, she's got this fa , how the hell did she get in front of us? Come on, please, the driver says I know, I know, speed up, let's test her stamina. Stopped her dead. Oh oh. Did you see that Robin William's thing, Acting Funny? No. Oh it was quite interesting. I actually Cos basically , Robin William films are either a film with a character and Robin Williams is the character, takes over the film and Robin Williams comes through, and it's funny. Okay? Okay. Now, you know, erm Good Morning Vietnam? Mhm. What it is, is it's a what, what, aha what it is er it's a film and basically it's a film with spaces in it for Robin Williams just to say jokes. Mhm. Basically to do a routine. Mhm. But the problem is, it's a serious film around that. Mm. Okay? And it doesn't work very well Mm. because yeah, you know the structure is is It's still a good , it's a fi , still a good You know the stru ,i , er, most people will be perfectly happy to watch erm two hours of Robin Williams being a funny D J Mm mm. but putting it around the, well apparently doesn't work. And then things like some of the stories like Yeah. the Fisher King Ah, that was good. that was apparently excellent! It was good. Which I never saw. But I'm sure it is. Which you will be opening to public on Channel Four. Yeah, probably. Yeah. Do you reckon they'll put Toys on? Nah! That's a likely possibility . Actually Muhammad, I don't reckon we should go this way. Why? Cos I don't reckon we should go and call on her cos that's a bit out of order. It's fucking early! And also What time is it then? What? What time is it? I dunno. I can't reach my watch. Quarter to ten. Also, if we co We only have to walk down also if we , no because if we walk down there and Right. they look out their window and see us you know So? What the fuck! So, I don't want anyone thinking What the fuck! Just come round this way Muhammad. No! What the fuck! I don't give a fuck! Fine. Fine Right. You go and make a complete prick of yourself. Why? But I'm, I don't particularly want to. Oh come on! No! You're not gonna be a ? Rosa isn't gonna, not gonna do it, Tamsin's not gonna do it right. You're gonna help me out about that . Cassie, we don't give a fuck about! Cassie Cassie's oh she has, she's seen Cassie. Yeah? Well Is that Cassie's car? Mm mm, well not Cassie's, it's somebody's though. Cassie's, yes it is. But, it's not Cassie I don't think. Erm Do you wanna or not? No, not particularly. Ah come on! Nope. Take a risk. No. If you, If you're game right and the entire field is full of mines and you need to get the last base. Shut up! You've gotta take No. a fucking chance! Muhammad, I have no objective of trying to reach here. Oh damn! What obje , I don't have an objective here. I was just, I'm just running through a field of mines, okay? Except there isn't another base at the end of it. What's in there? Now I've past the last base and you want me to just run through a minefield okay? And screw you! What? What? It's a terrible thing . What you on about? , what's ? Sarah. Oh! Oh no it did look er like her. Have you got a bus pass? Hop on a bus? What? Ah. Sounds alright actually. You got any money? How much? About a pound. Yeah, that's enough. No. Cos I don't wanna make a big thing of it cos if it was today we'd have to go before Sesame Street or after the Sesame Street. And I said I'd be back for around one cos I wasn't actually planning on doing much Ah but you going to Judo five, half past five innit? No next Tuesday or next Monday. Yeah sure. What? Go before and get there No but we can go before or after. Yeah, well the point is if she . If it's a Bank Holiday then she probably won't be open. She will be. No, cos of school. No it won't be, it's a Bank Holiday. Ha ha! Ha ha. I just wanted to see Yeah well I haven't really got time. But erm I need to get some rope cos I'm doing, finally I'm doing that act for my cousin's birthday who's nearly two She is nearly two. Can she put up with that? Erm, erm I'm supposed to do a show for like her birthday. Which is easy, cos kids are easy actually. You just exaggerate. Like this is my opening routine, I got this out of a book actually, you come, okay? And go I'm a bit shy you see, erm well I'm a bit shy and tell the truth I have to admit I'm a bit shy so, I when I come on I'm gonna say hello and then you say hello back to me. Okay? And then, no one has to be shy. Then I go off. Okay? And I come on and basically they're all gonna shout hello. Right? Yeah. No. No. That's not right, no. I say hello first. Here, I'll show you. Go off, I come on. I go and wait about for a min , half a sec ,ha , you know just wait for about ten seconds I've forgotten what I'm supposed to say wha , can you remind you? And they all shout hello. So, I erm one more time, I go off, I come on. Hello. And they say hello. And that's that. It's good innit? That is a bit shit! Well No it's not a bit shit. No, well I wasn't planning on to you know,, I wasn't planning on to do everything I wasn't planning to use it on Oh alright. Oh calm down! I just didn't wanna see her. You just can't defy the logic of . You can't just . What other shops do you want? Well I dunno. What do you wanna buy? Shops. What shops? I got it on my bus pass. You sure? Oh! You know the K two. K two?, yeah? No. K two. Yeah what? Sarah? No, K two. K two? Ah! Yeah. Saw her this morning. Ah ah! Cos of the bus strike I went the way I normally go though. Yeah. When I got off the bus she was at Hackney Cen Central with all her friends. Ow! Ow! So you went and pulled her to one side. No I didn't actually I just, ignored her and went on. I didn't have time to talk cos I had to be here for nine. Oh screw you! I only got off the bus to catch the bus that was in front and I missed that. Oh yeah. I was gonna catch it at the next stop. Ah! Have you smashed it? No. A D to J D. A D to Jack Dee, it's okay. Mm. J A D. A D. Who's J B? Janet . Yeah. A Aaron Oh! Who's A D? We're all rebels. Ain't got no ca We're all rebels , ain't got no cause. Total anarchy and gang wars. Kill the pigs. There ain't no laws. Let's all go out and score some whores. Terminate your cat and liquidate your assets don some mirror shades and eat some Bertie Bassetts . Liam? Er erm, Bonnie. Surprising, it sounds more Liam. Yeah. Janet wants a Valentines card from Muhammad . Janet won't a Valentines card until next year. What? Wait till next Valentines and then she'll Kate get one. Kate wanted a Valentines from Pierre, and she got it! Stupid cow! Ooh! Is that a bit of hate I hear? No, not particularly. Then what was it I ask then? I dunno. Oh so, did you get an A D for J B? A D for J B here. A D for J B there. A D for J B there, yeah? I know. And there. I reckon I like the second verse better. Terminate your cat and liquidate your assets. Don some mirror shades and eat some Bertie Bassetts. Oh I dunno. Cos this one's a bit shit. Oh shit! D'ya know what I watched last night? What? Inspector Allen Mysteries. Surprisingly strange. It's really confusing pop artists with pop art hasn't he? Why? Cos pop art is basically taken stuff out of popular medium Yeah? I E, if you were doing Yeah. and you'd fit them together but if it didn't fit you'd have to do something to you'd have to get them from som , from somewhere else. Yeah. But with a computer right scan it and i if take erm picked a note or whatever you wanna do to it you've done it. Yeah. So that is all technically . So don't use computers. You do. What? They do. Yeah, fine. See if I care! Cos that is going to eventually pop up, you just, you've got, I think he's a contact wrong. You know, the big mother-fucker said what did she say? Talking of that have you got Teletext? No. Well on, on fourth, Oracle, the new Four thing We've got that. What? Four seven. You said you didn't have it. I know I don't have it. Oh. But people tell Oh. Well I look at this quiz thing called Bamboozle and the quiz master's called Bamber Boozler, which I think's a bit sad but they sa , you send in, you're supposed to send in twenty questions and they put them on. Right? Well, this is the first question okay? What does the B stand for in B B C basic? Is it, beginners, basic Yeah. B B C, or British? Beginners. Yeah. Question two was something like er, yeah, question two Want me to record already done? No I'll talk about that in a minute, hello Do you want a razor blade Jo? You need a razor blade and a white tail. Miss this is dead, look at him. No you'll still be able to do what This is dead So this is for What do you want Peg? A magnifying glass please Microscope If you use a slight sawing action you You see erm, a hole in the middle and there's like a the smallest lens, and start with it as close as you can to the stage Miss can you help me set up a microscope please? Where is, where am I? In there In where? Start with that as those lens, make sure it's in the right place then look down and then put your thing on there and it should be just the case of turning it off Okay Look you just move that round there Gavin remind me to use the lamp, it's in my Miss Miss are you checking homework? I will Testing, testing one two, one two. I need er to Is that it? Is that all you've got to do now I might just do that Oh it's horrible You can see the darker red blobs can't you where the, where the water's gone try and get before you do your drawings It's still the wrong lens, right lens Is that alright at the sides? I didn't cut this one When you, when you use the microscope Miss what shall we call it? I don't know, but it's not going in Laura No just do your focus for me If you look down at it's all round the outside of Oh Miss I need to talk to you It's a different boy now its not Eddy, Eddy's well under the thumb Miss what's the title? Miss violence Er, if you're gonna perform you will go out, there is no need Come on Gary, come on and what we're doing is collecting like the of all sorts of different places schools, meetings, business meetings to have a record in the English language is right, and to put it all back together to have some sort of record Dave have you done your er homework for er English? Yes, I done it last night Tony what's this stuff we're using in that one? Miss what's the we were using? It's the cow parsley Parsley I say I usually use celery but I say that grows wild in the school, so we use that Oh it's raining Is it? We've got netball after school Practice, what? I ain't doing it He might try and come down again What before before then, but you know it depends Yeah cos he's, this Friday he's taking a group erm youngsters to Paris Is he? That had been booked you see before Yeah in fact he was also booked at Easter to go to the erm to Florence But he couldn't again, but he's had to cancel that Yeah, someone else has got to obviously in his place Either that or I'd imagine the people that went before have to sort of do it, but as I say he wasn't er, er we went up at dinner time on the next day and, because he went back after he the morning again, and we took Daniel up to the er, cos there was a station, Christopher picked him up there and off they went you see so erm haven't heard anything I presume he got back alright but as I say How's Carris taken all this anyway now? Mm? How's Carris taken all this now? Well seemingly she's erm A bit resigned to it now? a bit more resigned, there's another, there's another sort of erm possibility, I mean if they sold their house quickly of course then, you know they'd come down here obviously and they'd try and look for something, but it's not likely that they'd sell their house that quickly No but if they did and They sell it you know they'd all come down, but if they don't, erm Christopher would travel possibility is that Marilyn would stay up there for another year with Carris you know in their house and Timothy of course and erm, then sort of move down here What after Carris has done her er GCSEs? I imagine so, is she due to do them next year? No she's not No she's not you see she's no got another year after that after that oh I thought she was I would of thought I would of thought is she, if they're gonna move this year is the year she's def gotta do it Yeah well Christopher knows that Yeah but erm, if everything else being equal obviously that would be the thing to do Yes, that'd be me but if they can't well they won't want to be separated for well he twelve months twelve months or so He's going to be going up erm each weekend if this happens Oh yeah I mean that's that's the and erm Marilyn will come down of course when she's at, she's worried as well about whether she's going to get a job, cos er, I mean they need to have erm a second income I should think Well yeah, but I don't think the job's erm, I mean that's not the problem for her because she can always go on the agency you see and she can do general midwifery Oh on the agency can you? Oh yeah, I mean, I mean she can like she used to go to an old person's home of a night time you know Yeah or, or days, you can pick actually just when you want to do it Oh yeah that's what she'll get something she'll get paid , she'll get paid travelling and everything for that so that er I don't see that that's erm No well that's probably erm no I don't think that's a problem no that's not a great consideration I I don't see that as a Well I think it's just I mean that could be a short term until she could get herself you know a full time regular post It's erm, you know, mostly Carris of course Yeah I mean I think if they can but she means if they sell their house they'll come down more every year then Yes because in the summer I mean you, some time in the, in this next term would be the ideal thing really because that, if she can stay on for the summer term Before September that's right erm well most of it I mean she'll be take and erm Yes like in September Timothy Timothy will take his O levels you see during the summer term, well I mean by the end of June he'd of finished those so that September would be the ideal time for erm, you know, to be starting down Well July, August I mean any Well yeah To get settled in Yeah Mm but erm and as things are at the moment I think it But Chris Christopher's very much more happy to have met up with Bob in the office to see what he's you know the thoughts of Yeah, he, he'd come away I think rather happy I he, he nev , you know he begun to see here He's had some more idea , he had no idea what be expected of him or anything Yeah and this Bob erm has sort , he's been quite marvellous, he's set up some fantastic things He's getting an O B E in Is he? Yeah he's getting an O B E next next week isn't it? next week or something, yeah Is he? And he's written books and all the rest of it and in fact he's, he's going to be erm lecturing at Royal College Mm, mm you know after he gets out from here on a temporary basis sort of thing, so that erm Christopher says he's gonna be doing it for a year this lecturing, but it's very nice for him because he'll be able to contact him and Bob will help him if it's necessary It'd be a difficult situation that will be for Chris then won't it I mean Well Chris says he's gotta keep in with him for a little while, he said he Right he said I'd, I'd, I'd, I'd rather have, rather have him as a friend than an enemy And how did he get out of the Chris think he'd get on with him? Oh very well Alright Was he on the panel, on the board? I don't think so no, but you know I mean, for six months if Christopher's living here and having to go back at the weekend, for six months he gets an allowance A travelling allowance, so Get it, yeah that would save them yeah but what that doesn't take into account is the tiredness factor is it? Oh no it doesn't Because you work, you work the long days and go, go by train He'll go back by train no question of Chris driving Go by train yeah, but you've, but you've actually got to do this, I mean, that's right I know it doesn't, but at least it Yeah, not fair enough, yes and he gets moving allowance as well Yeah, erm removal expenses So, I mean it's Yeah We don't know anything Oh, no that's more than that, nor does he really I haven't liked to phone him up because it, you know, I certainly don't want to be, thought that, yeah, yeah, try and be nosy or anything like that, it erm But that I mean we didn't even know he was coming, father rang up on erm It was ever so funny really Yeah because I had said to father during the day on Sunday, I wonder if any of our children are alive? Because we haven't heard or seen any of them or anybody Well I was, I was at No I'm not talking Not you no it wasn't you was talking we were thinking Bridget even hasn't phoned us either I was out on the moor from, it's been a hell of a fortnight really No, no, not, not sort of getting at, anyway I had just said that to father you see Yeah I'd phoned up so father said well I'll erm go and see if erm Christopher's Timothy answered the phone you see erm there so Timothy said oh he said well you want to know what time he's coming tomorrow I said pardon he said well hasn't he told you? I said what? He said oh he says perhaps it was gonna be a surprise I've put my foot in it again perhaps I shouldn't of told you, so I said well look Timothy I said this is a conversation that hasn't taken place I said when Christopher comes back in I said if you want to say anything you can, but feel free not to and we'll just, if he comes we won't know anything about it Play it by ear that, that way, he must of said something because Christopher phoned up and said I'm coming down tomorrow He did say something Christopher told me that Oh he did, did he? and I are off tomorrow and it's the first day off that we've had together you know, for Alright then, so are you gonna go out or something? I might , well no we're not Go and have some lunch or something Well I dunno, I don't know what we'll do, it's, there's plenty of work to be done around, but I've been out every night this week and I'm in tonight thank goodness, I need to be in Mm erm, what's it? Twenty five miles over the moor for the weekend Oh and then of course, change the subject completely, we've just, we've been out this morning, have we been out this morning? We've been out together this morning, yes We've been out this morning, that's right , we got back in and I was then going to go over to Saint Mary's church club, I wanted to go to the bank at Saint Mary's church, and erm, back door bell goes ding ding ding ding ding and I think it's Chris cos Chris is normally the only one, go out there and who should it be? It's Bill and his missus, do you remember Bill who used to caretake at school? No you wouldn't know but he was the caretaker at father's school, wonderful man, absolutely, he's got god knows what he hasn't got wrong with him, but he has sort of which he's made himself Good lord He's he's made two of those up there you see Two of those numbers up there are his as well and a painting That's a cat and a fiddle Yes, strewth, what was I gonna say? I tell you, you're talking about names in the past, Fred do you remember Fred he was Yes, yes Yes, yes er Fred and er, I can't remember what his wife was called now Joan Joan that's right, I met them down the town in Torquay Oh gosh, I haven't seen them for a Well Fred was working for erm Now what was their name? I can't remember, but Fred he's in the police now Is he? police now, yeah Ooh can I just say, sort of butt in there, I was at the hospital I had to go with my A C Oh yeah and you met er, now who was in there, up there? Oh you, you've heard did you? Yeah, but, no Oh yes that's, that's, that's erm, erm Ray mum that's erm the mother The mother she's a wonderful erm, she's a nurse that does the A C clinic Oh is she? Yeah and I said to her erm, and she said I don't know how it came out about her son in the fire service, oh I know she'd just come back from Orlando, cos she'd been off work having had a hysterectomy and she had three week's leave due to her And you said your son's going to Orlando so she went to erm Orlando I am so I said oh my son's going there sort of erm this summer and er she said oh don't they live you know locally, so I said well in Newton Abbott and erm he works in the fire service So does my son and so Ray told me about it, he said that erm this bloke ah he said that ah she's a lovely lady she really is so but then after, not after, before then, I was sitting up waiting to give my bloody when Mrs said Pat's Pat's wife Yeah er Pat's, Pat's mother Mm she used to live in she said to me, erm Oh he's in the fire service? Yeah Yeah Pat, Pat works in office Yeah with you? Is he? Yeah that's right Yeah he works in the same office God She said erm he's in erm Fire prevention Torquay and fire prevention oh I said he must be with Richard, yes she said he is Yeah, yeah Ah ain't that funny both on the same day But Fred was saying, er because, erm the dreadful thing was I couldn't remember his name to start with I think I could try if I knew but I couldn't remember what his christian name Fred Fred Angela wasn't it the girl's name? Erm Oh Angela and er actually Joan was quite embarrassed because she heard that you were in a box Oh goodness gracious and I said well she wasn't the last time I saw her She said oh I'm ever so sorry, she said perhaps it's your mother, I said no I said she was alive and kicking as well the last time I saw her so Oh she probably heard that I had not been well Well that's right that'll be it that's what I'd guessed, erm, so I said no, I said they're fine, so she said oh I'm ever so sorry I said don't be I said these sort of things get around, I mean it's, she kept go and then I went on to describe how I virtually done not too a dissimilar thing going up the road trying to talk to people about writing in to object, you know with this planning application and erm, I said I sort of knock on someone's door up there and I thought it was the next door that the husband had died and it was that one Oh dear Mm, mm you can't help putting I'm going to go to the planning committee meeting there Are you? on Monday and then happily leave around about ten o'clock So you can go alright can you? Oh yeah They'll, they'll allow you to go? Oh yeah you're allowed to go in and watch, you're not allowed to say anything, but I just wanna go in and, and er See who says what Yeah Yeah, that's a good idea, mm Yes well I mean had we had any idea about this, obviously father would of Didn't even go to the committee dear, this one Didn't even no I've never even went to the committee, yours was That was, that was the trouble with ours going to a committee absolutely I'm sure of that Well I mean it's , it's well as soon as, it's, well did you write in and object in within the time? Oh yeah, yes I wrote, I wrote a foolscap letter with about nine points on it and somebody who, the architect, Chris's architect next door said with a letter like that going in, it must go to the committee Mm so I wasn't bothered, but it didn't go to the committee and now, afterwards when I Mm then it was too late But you can't appeal against it, you can't appeal against it No, no No that's right they, they can appeal they can appeal Yeah but you can't and I think it's very wrong that one man should have, be almighty god really, do This present mayor was away on holiday at the time, he said perhaps that I should of seen that erm it would go to committee I mean I have gone to the trouble, I have been in to see the planning officer that's dealing with it, erm I've written to every single member of the planning committee, I've written to the Environmental Health who have written back to me saying they offer no objections and there because the smell won't be a problem so I've written them back another stinking letter and saying well erm Come and live next door I, I completely disagree with your thoughts on the fact that there won't be a smell, so much so that the slightest smell if the, if the er proposal gets the go ahead and I shall be on to your office and asking to speak to you personally, to come and smell this erm And the rubbish, I mean the, the environmental people Oh they, they say it's all controllable so that I've, I've answered, I haven't just let the Environmental Health wash over me I've actually written back to them again, er I'll be interested to see whether I get a letter back from them, but I phoned up the Council this morning and they're rejecting on two grounds, one is to do with the highway and the sort of the traffic situation coming in there, although the, the authority, the Highway Department aren't objecting to it and the other one is erm, on local environmental issues I think you know that is, is unsuitably, unsuitable environmentally to the area well I can only say that I'm grateful to the planning, to the planning offices for they're going out on a limb if you like because I think they're on thin ice erm and so long as the committee will, will back them up I mean I don't know of what else I could of done as a person No nothing, I don't think you could of done any more, you got it to committee and, and there's nothing more than you can do than that erm, so that if, if they then go to an appeal er, I was talking to this planning officer and I was saying that I think I'll consult them, he said I don't think you'll need to he said, and of what you've done so far is pretty good and I can get access to all the letters that have been written in, in objecting into the into the homes Have a lot of other people written in and objecting? I think there's I think there's quite a few and I think this is what swayed it, the fact that they have had erm, I know of at least ten say ten, there's one, two, three on the other side of the road which is good because Bob which is another one, so that's four, there's which is the other side of the shop, is five, there's us, six, Jean seven, the eight, erm the guy the other side of the which is nine, there is Ginny over the and the erm old persons' home, that's ten that I know of for certain about, er and then I've heard of other people were gonna be writing in, now whether they actually did or not I don't know Mm, as you, see you, you really do need but I'm sure, if if I've had ten objections, I mean I've done You've done very well by that, you know You really have been to houses I wish we of had that knowledge when Had we known about it because this is the sort of thing we could of gone We would of done the same sort of thing and could of gone in to see the planning officer but I just, I just assumed you know that, that life was fair but of course there's no justice in this life But er, the only, the only, yes, no the only other thing I would of said that you could of perhaps done would be go to to a Local Authority ombudsman Well I, we went there afterwards Did you and what did he say? but it was too late you see and there was no, I mean It was passed I, I couldn't produce any evidence of malpractice, I mean I could No think what I'd like, but I couldn't prove anything and erm, so there was nothing that the ombudsman could do at that stage, at, as the stage complete Yeah erm and there was nothing that a Member of Parliament could do, this is the trouble I mean it, it with everybody was saying you should of contacted us before it went to I'm going to see Patrick tomorrow, there's a coffee morning up in the village, but erm Well you went to see him and he, he is very keen to try and change the law so that people like you and I who is can appeal can, can appeal against the decision which goes against us, it's, its not fair that we because we we're the third party we're not allowed to appeal against it It's not fair that the, the other people I know can appeal but you can't I know the person whose house, I mean, I've spoken to Jane at some length and I'll probably ring her tonight erm but erm, I, I might go around and see old erm tomorrow at a coffee morning I think up in the village But I think that he I find he's Anything he does he's very sympathetic to the likes of at least, at least you've got it's going to committee, it's not gonna be just on the on the rest on one man One person with er yeah erm who will undoubtedly he'll have favourable contacts with the person who was applying. I mean as I'm, I don't think they had any option with this I think because it's a change of usage, considerable change of use then it had to go before the committee, erm but erm It's okay, even if they get send down then of course they can still appeal but you can't it's ridiculous Well it's not fair No That's right and, so I don't know, we erm we live in hopes anyway. And how's Helen? Alright, I mean she's working long and hard and er How does she think she'll do with her A levels? Well I think Has she had her mocks yet? No, not yet she's, she's had an accept, I'm taking her up to Cardiff on Wednesday on a B and two Cs, the thing Yeah Oh for going to university? Yeah What about her er York which she's had She hasn't heard from York she's heard from Leicester She hasn't heard from them yet and she's got an acceptance from them on a B and two Cs Oh has she? erm Because it was York that was stopping her listing wasn't it? What she going to , what she applying to get a degree? History History The trouble is, I mean I can take, I can take her up to Bristol er Cardiff next week, but there's another thing to, to Leicester and I can't get her up to Leicester although she on a train, because I've got a governor's meeting that day and, and I can't avoid not being at that governor's meeting because I'm a chairman Yeah of the building and sites Yeah erm ha, I dunno When is it for Leicester? Do you know I can't remember the date, early part of March, early part of March, erm what she says at the moment is that er someone else from the college is going to Leicester next Wednesday when Helen's going to Cardiff and this girl is then going to Cardiff when Helen should be going to Leicester, so Helen says, and she wants to look at the same subjects as what Helen does so Helen says that they're gonna sort of go to the different colleges and compare notes when they come back from it so she might needn't want to go to Leicester Mm erm, so I just, I just don't know, erm, so we just Daniel was saying hasn't she heard from any of her so I said I don't honestly, I only know that er, erm which is quite nice to have fir to have an acceptance to anyway Yeah very good so I don't think she'll get an acceptance to York on a B and two Cs I think York is one of the better Try thinking, do you know somebody used better I think to swear about Southampton for history I don't know, I can't remember whether she applied for that, I know Harold his daughter went up to Southampton and he was horrified at the accommodation she was staying in, up there But I know that erm, for I think I've just about finished with it Oh have you? Have you? We've not had an appointment to go back have we since you've been home, but I suppose it was been October when we went I've had , I've had two hundred pounds worth, I've given her a cheque for two hundred pounds Have you really? What on earth have they done well he had all sorts of I've had two, two, three crowns That's only fifteen shillings I've had a new plate, I've had a hell of a lot with, with a one of the something to one of the teeth Yeah crown dropped off so she had to put that back on, she never put, I had to get erm have another fitting for it, because she said the purpose of pins in her teeth in the tooth to try and get the crown to sit on, on the pins, erm Darling Er I know, he's, he's told me and in fact last time I saw him I took, I took the cheque around on Monday, I had the, the last appointment on Friday and erm since I've had the abscess, the tooth that's got a crown on top, I think it's been pushed up a little bit and my top teeth, the first two keeps catching was this well it never has done I mean that, it's always been like that I've never had erm I can put together It's naughty of your mother not to let you have them Oh, but this, it was catching the tooth that had the abscessing underneath it Yeah god was it painful, and erm, so the crown has got a filling in it now because she, to, to relieve the pressure on the abscess she had to drill right down through the crown, erm to go right through into the root area Get me ash to get rid of the abscess, oh god it was painful, it really was, in fact I had it once, I had a load of penicillin, didn't finish the penicillin and it came back again and they had to give me a stronger drug then for five days Oh I see Did you erm, did you that's the trouble with them have any help? Yeah, put it all, I mean they I put that in as of course you get that Yes you get that back? I have to pay tax on that lot mind, but I mean it's something you know like it's still costing me fifty pounds Yeah erm but still that's a bit better than two hundred Yeah Oh erm And Paul is them thing wasted I mean, I don't know, ha got danger damage in the back of his head I think at times he's so laid back, he's doing, he's doing erm the C grade for maths now, that's what he's gonna apply to, to go for Where, what? For C grade in maths What is that? Well it's the intermediate maths Yeah Oh I see yeah We bought , we bought him a load of revision books erm from Smith's er not for maths but for chemistry, biology, physics,ma , not maths something else, Cherry went and bought four of them and Helen had got one for French anyway, so we told him he's got to erm get down to some serious Serious work serious work on him weekend they're coming The, the erm the maths, is this erm He's quite confident about the maths now with intermediate, he says that er, he doesn't see He hopes to get a one weekend after he doesn't see any problems with that at all, no Was that the one that Helen should of done? She, they should of put her in for the intermediate Yeah they put her in, they put in for the higher Mm, mm Yeah Mind you, you see in the long run they proved that she was Well all, all that good enough to do it all that proved to me is, is that Helen the board, the examination board that Helen did at the college, she said it was a much, a much better exam to do than it was at Was it? she felt much happier about doing it Mm and it's a different, it was a different exam to the one she was doing at Cuthbert Main, so I don't know, erm I'm not certainly enough qualified to arguing about qualified matters No, no No at school I hear is sort of going back quite a bit Oh he does quite a bit of, he does a bit of erm supplying it Tony told me and but er right I've gotta get back to work we've had er a man rang to the hall clearing out thing, that erm they'd left, father's gotta go down there next Tuesday so Yeah the stag group has definitely wound up, the whole lot has been wound up the, the erm, there are tents and all sorts of things you said they were comparatively new, erm because remember that big Mind you the tents up there didn't look very new actually, I know one but there was one or two bits of tent then Oh I don't know what they do, but do you remember that great big jumble sale they had that raised over a thousand pounds? They had under the erm, What the Scouts? multi storey? Yeah yeah Four or five years ago now Well that was sort of mostly to, to be buying erm Tents tents, but Who yeah just phoned in to find out where the flags were, but it doesn't see the flags It wasn't Andre that, that comes around here? No, erm Ferchase? No, where's my diary, I've got, I've got his name in my diary Erm actually Kay got in touch with this man and in fact she had got Andre's name as well sort of It's, er you know I yes, I erm he's a, he's retired, I mean he, he doesn't have anything very Ivor somebody Ivor somebody, no just a thought How old is he? Oh sixty five, seventy Sixty, no it's not him Retired haven't they, because if somebody came to you cos you see, he was so upset about it I think he's coming I think he's coming up to the high week group, what is he? He's something he's, he's, he's some, something to do with er with er, with the area and erm, and he's coming up for the high week group some time in the next, little while, and I said to him you were the group's up there Yeah, what did he say? Oh I think he was just surprised, I don't think he knew, you know, I mean Because I'm on a district executive committee at the moment and I don't, that name doesn't ring a bell He's erm Kay knows him cos he's he's about , I suppose he's about my height probably slightly slimmer Slimmer erm and I would of thought he's sixty eight something like that Oh gosh no, well I don't know who that is, I've got no idea He's got , he's got a big, a very big scout badge on his lapel And he had a scout badge on his tie, did you notice that? No I didn't notice that on the tie, yeah I wonder who that is? Kay knew him, she rang him up Well I mean if it, if it's, if it's ten erm, I'm at the process of now looking to spend certainly four hundred pound on a tent and maybe Well I, I , I mean I wouldn't of thought that Your, your best bet would be to go up and sort of you know look at the tents that are up there so that you would know whether they went about I'm meeting him nine o'clock Tuesday morning at the hall But I suppose you could go and look tomorrow morning I'm at work erm well he's off tomorrow erm, I, well I can't commit myself to going down to that to, I mean if it's, if I can I'll give you a ring because with Cherry being off as well it's, I mean it's gonna be unfair if I start, cos I've been so much Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah but if, if you are going to be spending a whole lot of money on tents and if these were any good Well I mean it's, this it's patrol, it's two patrol tents in particular that I'm looking at, if they've got some decent er scout tents I must say I mean I, I mean er there were two rolls How big are the rolls? Well I don't think they're big enough for a big tent, I mean one is fairly long, but er I don't But do, would it be it wouldn't be any thicker than that I don't suppose, but I mean I wouldn't know No, that The thing about it is It, it I wouldn't of thought Perhaps that doesn't sound like a patrol tent No, it doesn't sound like a patrol tent This, er I know Margaret, Margaret erm, what's her name at the time, no, it's, I won't say Tina's daughter I know Jim 's daughter Yes Marcus and all them Yes kids are called that's right, erm she had said at the time when they had raised all this money that er mostly gonna be spent on erm Tents Camping equipment tents and camping equipment so that I can find out anyway because I can always talk to Andre about it, he'll know er what's being done about it, erm Er anyway he, this fellow's gonna, we're going to clear all the rubbish So they, they, they've dropped the erm the group altogether then? Yes and the Who else would that involve? Well there was an adventure section as well Oh was there erm, the adventure section was quite successful in a lot of respects they had quite a few people er attached to it, the scout group and the cub group, cub packs didn't have very many, but erm the adventure section had quite a few people, er and in fact we've got people doing the tent stalls at the moment that are from a seventh mutant, which is, what it was and of course they've disenfranchised if you like er but we're looking, the district is looking to create a new group with Buckland Yeah so instead of being the seventh Saint Joseph's we'd be just erm Newton Abbott Yeah so the seventh will stay Mm, mm and because the Buckinary is so big and really warrants having a stag group over that neck of the woods They could well do they are gonna try and hang onto this seventh, so it well might be Resurrected that all its equipment is gonna be held on to Yeah to try and set up a scout group But in it, it's wicked, in that, in that cupboard they've got two pairs of really good walking boots, when Kay saw them she said it's not their feet, because you see she had the cubs there right from the beginning Mum, we have got the ten saws, last year one of the lads left with us a pair of eighty pound boots and fifty pound gaiters, left them and we don't know who they belong to Ain't it awful really? the scarper boots you know with the yeti gaiters on Yeah and the yeti gaiters are fifty pounds Gosh fifty five pounds But anyway and the and and, and the and the scarper boots he was he was so horrified about it because she had actually run all that right from the beginning That came in this morning Yeah, I was gonna give you a ring to say it's been this way, pick them up we had a piece for lunch and erm That was useful wasn't it? Oh I suppose we can have a little go at this crossword Well we can have a go at I haven't even read the paper yet Oh alright I mean I'll carry on Yes you, you sort Encourages prison breaks The Co-Op here's got cordless jug kettle for twelve ninety nine Have they? Cordless one? Mm Oh one and a half litres, two point two kilowatt fill up That's not bad and a cable tidy, that sounds quite good, these are half price things for ten days only There's a remote control colour television for one thirty nine, ninety nine, save fifty pounds they've got the dear tapes here look, erm six and a half hours video tapes, recommended price seven ninety nine can get for three ninety nine and there's another one here three pack, twelve hours video tape for six ninety nine must end Saturday November the twenty ninth, oh perhaps I'll buy you one of those, oh I have bought you a birthday present haven't I? Mm, mm Do you suppose it's getting a bit the the file of phrase is complete fury over trend Erm complete fury over trend complete fury over trend , there's three, three and four Mm, no I, I, I was gonna tell you what I thought it was and I've forgotten haven't I? Erm all the rage Mm, you're very good, yes very good, that's excellent Yeah I reckon gosh look at that you can get a Tefal food processor it was thirty three ninety nine for twenty four forty nine at Comets, there's a telephone answering machine This is the long one, this is the five thousand It says here on the six o'clock Olympics today including live coverage of Wilf Riley's attempt to win the gold for Britain in the mens thousand short practice speed skating final it's six o'clock Yeah that's the final he's got three, they've got two, I think they've got two of each before that actually and that's the wide lane that's two lanes so that's the erm, when they do the long one Looks as if somebody was sort of passed over to the other Yeah they do they cross over from outside Any lane to inside I thought it were relay Oh was it? That's what I thought because he's on the, he's by himself isn't he? Well if they've separated you see you get one on the inside track, one on the outside track and they can be separated by a hundred metres so that there's one, one side one No you can see there's usually two racing together in this one, but they're in separate tracks and one starts at the outside track This is the end track crosses to the inside track and vice versa there the other straight where they change over I think oh it's finished anyway mm Hello how are you? I'm fine actually You are I was tired yesterday Mm I was tired yesterday wasn't I? You were tired yesterday, you were indeed Falling asleep Mm falling asleep wasn't I? Well you were either tired or dopey Look Holly Nice Am I allowed to read them out to you? Yes, we'll, we'll do that when we've had our spellings Here's mine That's very nicely presented Mine isn't, I haven't done a front cover Well that doesn't matter Oh look Terry I've done an advertisement in the back You've done a what? Advertisement No you don't advertisement Advertisement, that's better advertisement Advertisement, oh right the riverside murder, well that's been nicely set out as well hasn't it? Right okay well we'll I did er an advertisement about understanding animals Anything you need to know about dogs, cats, farm or wild animals mm, right Understanding animals Okay, well we'll do the spellings first and then we'll have a look How many spellings we doing? Well how many how many do you think? I hope there's not you didn't earn your forty you didn't earn the disco Terry What? I, I've got a merit mark today You've got a merit mark What for French? Yes For French? Yes Oh why did you get a merit mark for French? Because I was good I did something that was very good You were good? I was good I never get any merit marks for, we never get any merit marks from our French teacher because I did something you had to she's really very tight there was about twenty cards and you had to name everything that was on it, order everything, like you usually go, erm that's it or something and erm you have to learn it in the MAs and MEs and things and all that and then she showed you and you had to take everything on that And you got everything right? Yes Very good well done she said How many more got everything right? About two Oh about two, right but I'm wonderful so is my poem Er in French? Oh no that was your poem you wrote in your book, right Yeah okay so we, because last week you had a thirty and thirty three and, and I had a thirty three and the, and the stipulation is yeah I got thirty three if you, what, what was the stipulation, if you get more than Thirty five thirty five, if you get thirty five or more if the other person gets less you still have to you still have to do it, that's right, you've both got to get more than thirty five So yes, it's one to forty can't be one to forty five because you haven't had tea well if you had tea you could say you were fortified Mm We break up tomorrow from school Yeah Yes oh I mean Yes you do I mean I'm really upset I'm sure you are I'm so, so upset And I gather you don't go back until Tuesday week Yeah Yeah you have the Monday off as well Yeah Yeah It's fun isn't it? Oh what are we doing? There's There'll be a lot of bread on that table will there? Pardon? There'll be a lot of bread on that table Baker's day That's right, there'll be a lot of bread Mm, three did you remember your money for the erm trip? No Oh Which trip is this? The ballet No, but my mum's coming afterwards so I'll give it to her then Yeah My mum doesn't like me taking money to school, in quantities Very sensible too that's why whenever I come into you from us I always give it to you afterwards Mm because mum says don't take it school because I might lose it Did we give you our maths money yesterday? Mm, mm no No no you didn't No I didn't but did we give but your mother did at the end of the day Yeah, yeah cos she said that She's got a good memory No, cos she said after I came out Oh yeah and then said no one 's taken the money in That's right and I was meant to be taking it in today, but I forgot and so I just Right, so are we ready? That's weird What is? because you know there's ten on each side Yeah Mm, mm the, yeah, twenty I mean, well that one goes different and they started at the same edge, ah two twenty twos oh That's very clever well just Just cross one out just, just miss one you see, that's alright Miss the bottom one just don't, don't put a spelling in the line, no don't put a spelling in the line, just put a line there and a line there Yeah and then put your twenty two there and your twenty three there Alright, yeah Alright, so are we ready? That's nothing great Number one Number one carriage carriage carriage, a horse drawn carriage or the carriage of a train I guess a plain straightforward carriage and number two marriage marriage as Lucy said that is what she saw on Neighbours yesterday Yeah Yeah it wasn't very good though Did you watch it? No I didn't, no Oh it's funny I, I only My uncle's getting married I only saw it today, saw Oh what happened today? What happened? Because I, I won't be able to see it What happened to Des and Melanie? What happened today well she's on the boat isn't she? Yeah Forty minutes out to sea What they gonna do? They've got to, she's got to stay on the boat until they're gonna try and find her somewhere else to sleep I knew they'd got to get off and, and what's his name, the lad that's run away? Todd Todd Has got the sack Ha, ha, I reckon he's gonna come home soon Well he should do because I don't think he's stupid Right, number three thinks he's gonna go in a home Tuesday Tuesday Tuesday Tuesday, Holly's called Wednesday in our play Is she? Yeah Right, so she should know how to spell number four Wednesday Yeah that's right I know how to spell Wednesday anyway So do I I'm not sure you know how to pronounce it Wednesday Wednesday That's right Wednesday right number five, family Family Family I was thinking That's a change how we got our name er, mm, how we got the days of the week because I said that could name it Monday because that was the day everybody got their money, got paid Yes that's not a bad idea perhaps that I don't know about Tuesday When the days of the week were first erm How did we get names of the week? occurred probably nobody got paid anyway Mm How did we get names of the week? I, I, I have known some of them and I can't remember all of them, Thursday I think Thursday comes from the name of the god of war, Thor and I think Thursday Thor was Thors day Sunday it was always sunny, Saturday everybody sat down Friday they had fried egg Right number six Friday crisp and dry day people People, people I like people People You could look it up in a dictionary probably to find the origin of the word, people Rhubarb I'll try and find out for you Friday crisp and dry day Number seven clothes Clothes The clothes you wear Do you know what Terry Not till you tell me No you don't, but my cousin's coming tonight Wow my cousin's very nice because he's only three That's why he's nice because he's only three Yeah, because I like little children when he gets five you won't be so nice Yeah Number number eight several, several Friday crisp and dry day Several I can't stop singing that now, if only you hadn't of said that Erm Number nine disgusting Disgusting disgusting gusting Because we had to discuss didn't we? So we had to Were you both born in Devon? Are you both Devon children? Yes I was born in Newton Abbott No I, I was born in Plymouth Oh I was, I was born in well that's near enough to Devon isn't it? Yeah Devon got Cornish I mean presumably you was born this side of the river? Yeah Right, so that's still Devon, right now, number ten Tights are falling down special, special I'm special person, I'm not really I know you're not certain isn't it? Right then number eleven get that, that's very good Holly, number eleven woollen Woollen She was wearing a woollen cardigan, woollen Cos it's chilly outside Number twelve you go merrily on your way Dum dum dum dum dum merrily, merrily, I've done it And number thirteen Ah Ah heaviest Heaviest Who is heaviest of the three of you? What is Me wrong if I said who is heaviest of the two of you? It's the heavier Heavier Right , it's only two of you say heavier Heavier Have you ever tasted clay? Right if it's more than two then it's heaviest, I have ever tasted clay? Yeah, we have we have done We have actually Terry because it's in your toothpaste You have to eat clay You won't, you will not get the taste of clay like tasting toothpaste because toothpaste No, but has been flavoured we went, we went to a clay mine W D, W D B what's and we had to eat them, eat clay and it just come out, just come out yeah, yeah you know when it comes out it's revolting Well it's a big pile and we just had to go Yeah and Me and Rebecca were going ugh ugh ugh We were I was saying ooh quite nice Not the nicest of things , no Well, no, and everyone was running up the slate They were what? Running up the erm, where all the big piles of the dust were to be Yeah and then all were sliding down it You did you went from the top did go from the top and then you go I'm gonna get that one at the top and they were running up to the top picked it and they, and ran down again Mm Ugh It was funny Right, well let's go on , fourteen abrupt Pardon? Abrupt Abrupt Abrupt He was very abrupt abrupt Abrupt, that was wrong abrupt he spoke in a very abrupt manner short manner I know mine is wrong, I know, I did so I put it right Mm, do it It's Friday crisp and dry day Number fifteen Shut up that makes it easier for you, easier I've got that word in my Have you? Mm Oh very good I might of I don't think I have there No easier I might have, oh look easier I'll read it No not now, we'll do it later, right number sixteen, succeed, succeed, I hope you will in succeed in getting them all right, succeed I don't know how you spell that word suc I know, I know, succeed I've done it It's probably wrong though Well if you have got it right you will have to have it achieved number seventeen, which is success Oh success so it's sixteen it's succeed and seventeen is success I've got success Success I don't know if that is it, how you spell it Number eighteen material Oh I haven't done success yet Material success E R Did you want, did you want an yesterday? Did I watch what? Yep Rodney Rodney? Only Fools And Horses Pardon? did you watch Only Fools And Horses yesterday? I didn't actually, no Rodney They're, they're all repeats but Mm have you seen the one where he went, had to go to hospital cos he had the trouble had an irritable bowel irritable bowel I don't know whether I have or not, yes I think perhaps I have seen it and he was fighting he was going mm fighting Right, okay then number nineteen I haven't done number eighteen yet Number eighteen is material Material Oh material Yeah And number nineteen, when something, when a plant dries up, you can say that it will wither Wither Wither Wither Wither ah And number twenty easiest, not easier but easiest and the third task was the easiest of them all, easiest now they were all your new words, now we go on to some of the older words now, number twenty one, occupy occupy I like that word and number twenty two accept, will you please accept this gift, accept No not except but accept and number twenty three language Oh I don't like this word language this is what we are trying to learn the English language, language Language Language I think I know how to spell it Number twenty four receive, receive Ow my foot's itchy, my foot's always itchy in here He will receive his reward in due time, receive I before E except after C And number twenty five believe number twenty four is receive and twenty five is believe It's so crisp and dry Sorry have you singing that? there's no attempting for taste is there? Number twenty six, she is a complete Nutter wreck wreck Er can we put on the end of this er spelling nutter Yes, well, erm, number twenty seven entirely, I entirely agree with you, entirely Entire Entire Entirely Entire Number twenty eight grieve grieve Not grieve Mumma , Mumma please do not grieve or wept It makes me grieve Oh we're going up to my aunty this weekend Are you? I'm not, but my brother's going to Austria this weekend Yes he is isn't he? Yes I'm going to see erm And I wish I was going with him Er so do I I'm , I'm going to see Cats on my birthday Are you? Yeah Where? Can I come? No In London? It's a family day out You said that you No, on my actual, erm you know I'm going to Alton Towers on my actual birthday in about in the Easter holidays, I'm going to see Cats, that's like my dad's treat because we can't go on the Friday that's on a school, which I would like to, I think I will go on I'm missing school on the Monday to go to Alton Towers so is my friend Yeah I'll ask mum if I can miss school on Friday When, which Monday? Monday after my birthday, the Monday on my birthday, because my birthday's on a Monday This coming Monday? No, in June That's what I thought, yes I mean then on Saturday, Saturday I'm gonna have the party Right number twenty nine is it twenty nine? Mm Yeah Instantly, instantly Instant do you, instantly In =stantly =stant, and If you spell it the way it is pronounced you'll Instant get it right instantly =stant , =stant instantly It's so crisp and dry Now number thirty the thought occurred to me, occurred, occurred, or the accident occurred when the lorry failed to stop at the traffic lights Why did he do that? Because his brakes aren't working Well that's a possible answer, yes, number thirty one Or he's being just silly curious Yeah curious I don't know how you spell cu You haven't done it yet? Yeah I have done thirty Yeah curious, number thirty two worthy Mm? Worthy Worthy? Yes the labourer is worthy of his worthy, he is worth it, worthy, number thirty three, moisture early morning moisture on the grass is known as Dew Dew Yes, moisture I've spelt it right this week Number thirty four surrender, surrender Surrend and number thirty five anxious, anxious, he was anxious to get his spellings right, anxious I shall think I'll have to give you something for your birthday present and it'll be very useful to you Nutty a rubber, yes you'll must need a new one by then an eraser, eraser, number thirty five was anxious, number thirty six is building Building building , building, building I just can't building, number thirty seven, naturally, naturally Naturally Nature's way naturally Naturally, can't say that Naturally Naturally Naturally Naturally Naturally Number thirty eight disappeared, disappeared I know how to spell that word now the five penny piece disappeared down the drain Into thin air disappeared and number thirty nine companion, companion Companion and then number forty And number forty Ah is the word that occurs four times at least in a nursery rhyme, there was a something man, who walked a something mile, he found a something sixpence upon a something style Crooked Crooked, right, crooked, there was a crooked man who walked a crooked mile, he found a crooked sixpence upon a crooked style Crooked style Right, so Don't know how to spell crooked You don't? No, oh, I've killed myself with my nearly poked my eye Look do you like my, my pen Terry? That's nice isn't it? Where did you get it from? Bulgaria Bulgaria oh You brought it back did you? Right, so Can I borrow you pen please Terry because it's a different colour Yes Thank you Could use a red I could, but I don't want to thank you I think I will Dinky do Yeah, I think I will There's another red pen there Right number one, Lucy carriage C A R R I G E Holly C A R R A G E You've both got it wrong, it's C A R R I A G E Oh Put a I in there C A R R I A G E right, number two, Holly, marriage M A R R I A G E Yes Yeah er, it's silly isn't it? You've got that right and you've got carriage wrong and yet the only difference is the first letter right? Yeah So you should know how to spell carriage another time, it's exactly the same as marriage Mm starting with a C instead of an M, number three Lucy, Tuesday T U E S D A Y I hope that's not what you've put What did I say? You said T U E S D A Y, I hope you've put a capital T U E S D A Y Yeah I have She has She has, right, okay, good erm Holly Wednesday Capital W E D N E S D A Y Yes Yes right, good Look what I've done er number five Lucy family F A M L I Y No, Holly F A M I l Y Right F A M I L Y Oh I've must of gone in family, family, not famliy Family , family Family, that's what you did you pronounced it famliy Family It's family Number six People Holly, people P E O P L E Yeah Right, P E O P L E, number seven Lucy clothes C L O T H E S Right Yeah C L O T H E S, number eighty sevel several, Holly S E V I R I A L I don't think so, Lucy S E V E R A L Right S E V E R A L several, got it Holly? Yeah Number nine Lucy, disgusting D I S G U S T I N G Right D I S G U S T I N G Yeah and number ten Holly special S P E C I A L Right S P E C I A L Yeah, yeah Good, right number eleven Lucy woollen W O L L E N No, Holly W O O L E N No it's, it's W O O W O O L L E N L L E N Oh I thought it was W O O L L E N Woollen but it's not double U O O L L E N Er so you could say that it's not double U Double you double L E N, it's double U, double O, double L, E N double you, double you Right if you think of that double U, then you've got to double the O and you've got to double the L double you Right, so number twelve horrily, Holly, huh Horrily Oh that was horrible wasn't it? Right erm merrily M E R R I L Y Right M E R R I L Y, yes Yeah Number thirteen Lucy, heaviest H haitch, do what, how do? H H I said that first didn't I? You did Well done H where am I, H E A V I E S T Right H E A V Yeah H I E S T, yes I like to H it H I like to I don't , I don't know why H pardon? H is Holly Holly H capital H O double L Y Holly do you say Holly? You don't say You don't say olly H you don't say olly, no Holly, Holly H Holly and it's aitch not haitch H O L L I E is my name aitch, Holly I don't know why you say aitch and your brother says haitch I say aitch Becky says haitch she says no it's, but it's, the, it's the name of the letter which is pronounced aitch Aitch Says haitch haitch, O, I felt, you wouldn't be able to pronounce Holly's her, her name with an aitch would you? Haitch Has to be an haitch, Holly Oh no Holly Ho, ho Holly, Holly that is how you pronounce the aitch, there is no other way to pronounce the aitch You don't say Holly I can't twirl a baton Right let's go on doesn't matter Number fourteen Holly abrupt A B R U P D P? T T T A B R U You didn't get that right Holly P T I have, I put a T but I said D Oh, that's alright then isn't it? Yes Lucy it is, right number fifteen Lucy easier E A S I E R Right E A S I E R, sixteen Holly succeed S U C C E D Lucy S U C S C E D No Mm, mm it is S U C C E E D Double E D? Yes, S U C C E E D Succeed Succeed Succeed and you say nothing succeeds like success and number seventeen is success and how do you spell success Erm I know Lucy how to spell it, but I don't think you spell it like that, I know how to spell it How did you spell it? I spelt it S U C S E E D No how, how, how did you but I know how to spell it Holly? S U C C yes Well, well it is S U C C E double S E double S Er Succeed is S U C C E E D, but success is S U double C E double S My hair's all cut off there Pardon? My hair's all cut off there Your hair's all cut off That's really interesting Yes It doesn't look cut off to me, it looks as if it's all there Mm Right, number eighteen Holly material M A T E R I A L Right Yep M A T E R I A L number nineteen Lucy wither W I T H E R W I T H Yeah E R right and twenty Holly, easiest E A S I E S T Right E A S I E S T Yeah, yeah Okay? Is it me? No No it's not, I was just thinking I've, I must run that, right number twenty one, occupy Lucy O no it's Holly isn't it? No it's Lucy Oh it is me isn't it? O double, O double C U P Y Right Yeah O double C U P Y er twenty two Holly accept A double C E P T Yep A double C E P T right, number twenty three language Lucy Oh it's me L A N U A G E No Oh Holly L A N G U A N G, no L A N G U A G E Right L A N G Yeah I've got it right U A G E I'm glad I got that one right actually L A N G U A G E language er number twenty four Holly receive R E C E I V E Right R E C E I V E yes Lucy No C R E C E I V E I miss the second E out Er number twenty five believe Lucy B E I L I V E No Holly B E L I E V E Right B E L I E V E believe B E L I E V E number twenty six wreck Holly R, no W R E C K Right W R E C K yes Lucy? No W R E C K I put an A instead of a C Wreck W R E C K that would be wreak You silly wreak Number twenty seven Lucy entirely E N T I R L E Y No, Holly E N T I R E L Y That's right Oh that's what I've got, don't why I said it E N T I R You missed the E R You haven't got an E in there anyway Oh I thought you said E N T I R Oh right E L Y right I thought you , I didn't hear you say N T E N T I R E L Y twenty eight Holly grieve G R I E V E Lucy have you got that? I'm not too sure G R I E V E G R I E V E No G R I E V E G R I E V E twenty nine instantly Lucy I N S T A N T L Y Right Yeah I N S T A N T L Y and number thirty Holly occurred I haven't got that right actually You haven't? No I N S T A N T L Y, what did you have? E, I N S T E A T L Y Oh, right I N S T A N T it's instant, =stant S T A N T L Y so Holly got that one wrong Yeah Right number thirty Holly occurred O double C U double R E D Right, Lucy, yes? O double O double C U double R E D, O double C U double R E D Mm occurred, right? Yeah Right thirty one, Lucy curious C U R I O U S Right Yeah C U R I O U S Yeah Number thirty two worthy Holly W O R T H Y Right Yeah W O R T H Y, number thirty three Lucy moisture M O I S T U R E Yeah Right M O I S T U R E, thirty four Holly surrender S U double R E N D E R S U double R E N D E R Yeah Right Lucy Yeah Er thirty five lucy anxious A N X O erm I U S Say that again A N X O I U S No Holly A N X I O U S Right A N X I O U S A N X I O U S thirty six building Holly B U I L D I N G Yeah Right B U I L D I N G thirty seven Lucy naturally N A T U R A double L Y Yeah Yes N A T U R A double L Y thirty eight disappeared Holly D I S A double P E A R E D Yeah Right, good, thirty nine Lucy companion C O M P A N I O N Good Yeah companion and lastly number forty crooked Holly C R O C K E D No, that's crocked Oh Lucy That's I, I've got the same You've got the same? Yeah How do you spell a crook? A shepherd's crook C R C R double O K Right Oh so crooked is C R double K E D E D crooked Oh god thirty three Twenty six Yeah, Lucy's got twenty six and you've got thirty Thirty three thirty three, now I've missed one out, you the first one you both got wrong was carriage Yeah What was the next one you both got wrong? Ma marriage, no I got marriage right No carriage I said Oh carriage Yeah, now what was the next one you got wrong? I got family wrong Oh I got several Yeah what's the next one you got wrong? Woollen Yeah woollen yeah Right, did , did you not get nothing wrong before woollen? Between carriage and woollen? I got several I got family Several wrong Yeah I got that right and I got family wrong And I got several Wait a moment, okay so let me get, who got several right? Me did You got it right Holly got several wrong and Lucy got family wrong Yeah that makes it wrong And I got family right that makes it wrong, so Lucy's twenty six and Holly's thirty three again Holly's thirty three I think thirty three's my lucky number but Lucy that's four less than the last time so that, have, have you got them all written down your corrections? Yeah Right, well please make sure this time you really go to work on those as well, now we've got thirty three to have haven't we, now just let's have a look at that and make sure that you Picnic, picnic know all the words that they all make sense to you picnic yes Yeah Yeah arithmetic, flood, wooden Yeah Yeah else, farewell, saucer, aunt, pencil, ocean, colour, clumsy, holy, navy, losing Yeah then going down the next list September, chief, successful Yeah soldier, Australia, reached, thief, foolish, pearl, zone Mm Erm a place like the next zone The next zone The next zone yes zone , right malaria A goose goose, thieves, acre An acre of land an acre of land, deny, debt, geese, machine, prayer, New Zealand and doubt Doubt yeah Alright, so learn those but also learn the ones that you got wrong this time, you've got, you had one, two, three, four, five, six there, one after the after, in fact you had seven almost in that list there, and they're the ones you've really got to learn Lucy, right, right, so let's erm Read a story let's hear the stories read, I think first of all you can call Lucy's is shorter than mine heads or tails? Tails Tails so if it's tails you read it first I don't care who reads first really, but never mind It's heads Holly mine isn't I, I get to read first or second? mine isn't shorter than yours You read first Oh I wanna read second so you read first right mine isn't shorter than yours Is it No, no, no, right we won't argue mine's five pages about it Yeah but that's them, they're like that Well I don't care So nice and slowly, don't rush it, read it so that I can understand it nice and clearly, sshh, listen Yeah sshh Right Oh what am I doing? What's it called? The Riverside Murder The Riverside Murder, right on you go It was Friday the thirteenth at midnight, the moon was full and shining brightly. Jane Hall had booked into the Riverside Hotel, she walked over to the reception desk and rang the bell, hello I'm Jane Hall I've booked a weekend stay here, ah yes Miss Hall if you would just like to sign here, here's your key, your room is six floors up, third on the right, have a nice stay. She took the lift up to the sixth floor and came to the room one O nine, which was her room, as she entered she noticed cobwebs and dampness on the walls, she flung her bed, bags on the bed and went downstairs to supper, after her supper she went to report, she went to the reception desk to report the cobwebs and dampness, she rang the bell a few times but no one answered, she was just about to go back to her room when she heard Mr Sandy the receptionist in the back room talking to her assistant, I put the body in Miss Hall's wardrobe, Jane ran upstairs and sure enough there was a body, Jane rang the police then straight away, please could you come to the Riverside Hotel, there's something I think you should see, there was a knock at the door and Mr Sandy answered it, hello, oh hello we've just had phone call from here, are you sure this is the right hotel? Yes, well I didn't call, but I did said Jane, well you leave, well I'll leave you to it said Mr Sandy, if you would come upstairs, the policeman and Jane entered her room, please look in the cupboard, I think we've got a case Sarge, do you mind if I make a quick phone call? Go ahead, hello is Sergeant Briggs there please, if you would just hold for a minute, beep, beep, beep, beep, beep, hello this is Sergeant Briggs who's calling? Sergeant it's P C Garfield, Sergeant Huddersfield and myself are at the Riverside Hotel, we've just found a body in Miss Hall's wardrobe room one O nine, well could you describe him? He's about six foot two, short black hair, moustache, blue eyes and according to his record card he's twenty seven and his name is John Banks and he lives at 36 Church Hill Road, Upper Tracey, and we think he's been shot, I'll be right over, stay where you are. About fifteen minutes later Sergeant Briggs entered Jane's room, we'll take him back to the station and tomorrow we'll go around and ask a few questions. Oh by the way Miss Hall do you know anything, said P C Garfield, well said Jane I wasn't going to tell, but I think Mr Sandy and their assistant knows something about it, because about twelve thirty this morning I was going to report about the cobwebs and dampness on the walls and I heard Mr Sandy and his assistant talking in the back room. Well just that they had put the body in my wardrobe, that's a start thanks. The next day the policeman went where Mr Banks lived and they rang the bell, hello, hello are you Mrs Banks? Yes, yes I am. Well we've got some bad news about your son John, oh I think you'd better come in. Well what have you got to tell me about John? I'm afraid, I'm afraid, no, I am very sorry to tell you this but your son has been murdered said Sergeant Briggs, murdered, but how? He was shot, John my poor John, what am I going to tell his wife? He was married? Yes to a Mrs Stow before, I'm sorry we have to tell you like this, anyway do you know why he came to the hotel? Yes he had booked there for a week, I think it was for a business meeting with Mr Sandy, that's all I know. Mr Sandy, are you sure said P C Garfield? Yes he's the receptionist there isn't he? Yes he is, you've been a lot of help, thanks. At midday Sergeant Briggs and P C Garfield went back to the Riverside Hotel to talk to Mr Sandy. Do you know anything about Mr Bank's death said Sergeant Briggs? No, yes you do, don't lie, I heard you yesterday morning, twelve thirty, you were talking to your assistant in the, about you put the body in my wardrobe said Jane, okay I know something, in fact I know a lot more than all of you. I know who did it. Who said P C Garfield? Ah but that would be telling, just tell us said Jane, you really want to know don't you? Look stop playing games and tell us said Sergeant Brigg, okay it was me said Mr Sandy. I could of guessed said P C Garfield, but why? Well I was having an affair with his wife and I loved her so much I wanted to marry her, I wanted his land and his money, so I thought if he was out of the way it would be easier to get what I wanted and of course it was. I hope you know how many years you'll get for this said P C Garfield, of course I do I'm not stupid. Well if you come with me sir, I think it's gonna be about eighteen years for you mate, said Sergeant Briggs, thanks for all your work Jane, that's alright Sarge, a quiet weekend that's all I wanted, some weekend this has turned out to be said Jane Very good, right, good, let's hear yours I'll just read this bit and we'll talk about it later on, yes go on. If you Liz, Elizabeth pretending to be Jessica or is Elizabeth really Elizabeth. Chapter one, Elizabeth was sitting comfortably on a low branch on a tall pine tree in the Wakefield's back garden, she had her knees up round her chin and was leaning against the trunk, this was Elizabeth's thinking seat, the place that she went to be alone, there was a lot to think about, tomorrow Mrs, Mr Davis her form teacher would announce the winner of the class essay contest. Elizabeth had written about saving the world and she thought her essay had a chance of winning, the prize was a year's subscription to the winner's favourite magazine. Elizabeth was going to subscribe to the mysteries around the world, she loved reading Amanda Howard mysteries, but she was also looking forward to tomorrow because it was the first of April, April fool day, April fools day. The day went, her and her sister, her twin sister, Jessica, did their annual April fools day joke, they Elizabeth had won the essay competition and was just about to stand up when Jessica got up and she walked up to Mr and she asked and he asked her what magazine she wanted for the year and she said Rock Seventeen Jessica knew what magazine Elizabeth wanted and she just said Rock Seventeen. Then she had to stay behind and got Jessica's detention and was late for her next lesson and got another detention for running in the main building. But the trouble was they were both at the same time after school where she was meant to be decorating the hall for the disco after school that night. Then, she got Jessica's C for her cooking class instead of the A Jessica got off hers. But, after school she went to her detention with Mr and course, the note said going to the dentist, sudden toothache. So she went to her other detention and there was another note saying, had to pick up my child from school. So, she went to decorate the hall and got sent out with people saying she was Jessica. Elizabeth slammed the kitchen door and dropped her bag. What's wrong said Jessica? So Elizabeth told her everything that had happened today and after half an hour they decided to tell everyone what the they had done at the disco that night. So that night, at the disco they told them and at last they believed them and sorted out the magazine thing and changed the magazine to Mysteries from Around the World. And then, they changed the cookery marks. And Jessica said, I'll race to the cake and the twins were back to normal . Mm! Now right! Well I am going to have to look at them both. And see if I, I like them both. There's, there's a lot of work gone into those . Erm i if I'm honest I think I found Holly's easier to understand on a first reading but that may be because I think perhaps read it. Perhaps, in a slightly more clearer way than you did. That doesn't mean that yours isn't as good. So I, what I want to do now, and I have do eve take time to do it, I can't do it just now when you're here. But I want to look at them both and I will go through them as well and mark them for spelling and for for your punctuation and everything else. But, really you both put a tremendous amount of work in! They're great! Can I just say something? Yeah. Cos, didn't gonna say know when Jessica got up cos I've got pretend erm got up for the erm So what's it? What is it? It's April Fool. Yeah, it's April Fool's Yeah. day. Er, what they do, every year they switch identities e , Jessica pretends to be Elizabeth, and Elizabeth pretends to be Jessica but, this year they don't do that cos tha all their friends like know and, this year cos their teachers and things still think that they're erm so , they swapped identities they like, give detention and things to the wrong people and stuff like that. And, when Jessica gets up to do get the magazine it's cos Mr told her but course she thought it was Je , erm Elizabeth but she wa wasn't so What's D T? That's detention. She went to her detention, I see! Right. So we just sort of say essay, D T to show what I mean. Yeah. Well well yes we used to get used to get detention, yes, but erm the thing we used to get more than anything else was pink paper. Mm? Did you have to take it home to your parents? Pink paper To show that you've was been naughty? Pink paper was a foolscap sheet of paper like like that Mm. but it was pink! Pink! And if you had to do if you had, say, three sheets of pink paper because you've been naughty and done something wrong, you had to fill three sides of pink foolscap paper with writing. You might have to write an essay or you do copy writing on the pa , do three sheets of pink paper, you had to three sheets of writing! And it was pink paper and at the top it had space for your parent's signature so that when you've done the work your parents had to Mm. sign it so they'd know if you'd had pink paper. What erm That was the, that was the worst, that was the pink paper, and then what we normally have to do. you got yo would have to take and hour or take two hours, or take three hours and if you take up to three hours or if you got three separate hours that was detention and if we were in our in the junior part of the school in the first three forms erm, you then had to go into school on Saturday morning. In the senior school we had to go into school Saturday morning anyway! And you had Wednesday We we afternoon off. No, we didn't! We we worked Monday to Saturday Our when my morning. When my We had games on Wednesday afternoon but we had, in the senior school When my we had school on Saturday morning as well as the rest of the week! My erm my dad's mum, they used to go to school Monday, Tuesday Wednesday morning, have Wednesday afternoon off, all day Thursday, all day Friday and Saturday morning! But they would have Wednesday afternoon off. Oh! Right. For some reason ! Okay. So we've got a little time left. Erm let's have a look at your English these English progress papers. Okay. Because, I want to do a little bit of that erm we are going Ah! what page are we on now? We started something last week. , I mean I've finished that. Yes, what paper was that? The Locuses. About the Locusts. What page was that? I don't know. I don't know. Here it is! Here's the page. Page twenty eight. Page twenty eight. That's right. Now, how far did we get with that? Erm, we finished the bit about the locusts. Right. So Ten to five. Okay. Number eight we've got to do. I think. Look, look! Look! Yes. Number eight. I think you hold it right at the end. Do you? Do this don't you? Oh you do don't you? Did we mark it? No. The Did we not mark it? They're all ma they're alright though. Cos we didn't Cos we but we didn't the last one? So right! Okay. So we'll go on to page that page twenty eight, number eight. If you'd like to do it now and then we'll mark it. Number eight? Number eight. Paper over Oh! there. Yes! Underline the correct answer in the brackets. So write it down, don't underline it. Just write the, write the sentence down. How do you write it though? You gotta choose the correct one. Mm. This should be very apt from what you've just been doing. Mm! My, am I, am I an author now? I don't know. Mm? That might well be mightn't it? I know I'm, no I'm just coming to sort you out because as you say you did that with Mrs . So, you haven't done this yet? I've done that Terry. Right. Wait for Lucy to do it and then we'll read it out. Oh! Ooh ooh ooh! Don't think, the spelling's wrong. Yes I have! Cos I I'm usually a good speller! One of these. Over to dad and Becky. Oh, she's terrible! Mm. Doesn't know how to spell scene! Does she not? No, she No. i , when we have like, something like scene one she puts S double E N! Mm. Oh! She doesn't know how to spell having. She goes, she puts erm, A, hey, no H, H A V E I N G! She's useless at spelling! Right , so what have you got there? Well now, it should a be a person who writes books is An. An. An! Oh! An author. Mm. An author. Why do you put an instead of a? Because it's got a vowel! Because author A vowel. comme , starts with an A, right, a vowel. Right, number nine. So do number nine. Mhm! Oh! So what have you got? It's a journalist. Journalist. A person who writes articles for a newspaper is a journalist. For a newspaper is a journalist . Journalist! Good! Right! Number ten then. When he breaks Oh sorry I didn't mean to It's when we break into a house to steal is called a It's called it's called a prisoner! Mm mm . Do you know the story o , first of all I was gonna write about fairground about a erm ghost Ghost train then I thought, no, I wouldn't write that. Then I was gonna write about a hotel you know, erm Heartbreak Hotel thought no, wouldn't write about that. Want something exciting, so I thought a murder ! Yes. So it's a burglar, right? B U R G L A R. A murder. E actually yours made me think of a story that I was told many years ago on a coach trip over Dartmoor Mm. when a lady who lived on Dartmoor for many, many years erm was telling stories of things that had actually happened True? to her. Well, for instance, that she lived in a in an old vicarage, cos her husband had been a a, no a tri , priest in the Church of England and er we her house was haunted and she was telling us stories and sh she quite often saw the ghost, she was never worried, she never cos it never frightened her it wasn't vicious or anything like that and she often saw it quite matter of fact . As a matter of fact, she often saw this ghost. But, she was telling the story of a man who was travelling over the moor and it was many years ago on horseback and er he was completely lost and wan , it was getting dark and he wanted to stay somewhere for the night and he sort of travelled and couldn't see anywhere and eventually down a long drive he saw a house wi , blazing with lights so he went down this house and er, all the windows were alight, you know were lit up and he knocked at the door and knocked at the door, and knocked at the door and couldn't get any answer, no one ever came to the door so in desperation he thought well this is no good! So he went back up onto the main road and very little further on, in fact, he in fact found a village and spent the night at the hostelry and he said to the man in the hostelry you know,he that he'd been lost and that a a little bit back on the road he'd seen this big house all alight and he had erm, you know, gone in the drive and tried to get get a room there but couldn't make anybody hear and the erm the inn keeper said, no he said er you wouldn't make anyone hear there, he said and if you go back there tomorrow the house won't be there! And he went back and it wasn't! Weird! Why not? It had gone! What a ghost made it? Yeah. I like, I love Told a lot of ghost stories, yes! I love listening in my to ghost stories in Dartmoor. Oh I know this really story! Go on then. Right, it's about this erm lady, I'll make it that she lived on Dartmoor with her erm grandson erm and her moth and he sa daughter and she is a gran , she was a grandlady a grandmother. A grandlady ! And erm, they lived in this little cottage and erm every night erm the moth , she would always stay up really late and the mother and erm her son would go to bed and she would always go out of this erm go out of the house every night and she would go, cos she had these three fingers which were blades Oh! you know like Freddy Kruger three fingers that looked like blades and every night she would go to erm the fields and erm she would go into sheep fields and cow fields and she would kill three sheep and a cow every night except for a Sunday night! Every morning farmers would come and they would see this claw mark on the neck of these of their sheep and their cows and they were, they were quite worried cos all their sheep and cows were like dying every night! They were quite worried about it. And so they went to report to the, to the police but and th I mean they didn't believe them, they thought it was just like birds. And erm and she kept doing this for ages and erm she was, she was sta starting to get worried because people might believe, find out that it was her and so after she killed a cow, she took out all of i , all it's insides and hid in it and no one ever found her! Oh dear! Terrible! And then, she Ooh! Ooh! she was It's horrible isn't it? And then she hid inside this cow! Mm! And she killed it! ? Right! I think we'd Ha. better leave it at that hadn't we? Will you before you come to me next time Mhm. finish down to number twenty eight? And learn those spellings? Right? So that's going to be page twenty eight and twenty nine. Okay, learn your spellings! Now, I'll have to talk to your mums but it may well be that I shan't be here in a fortnight's time so we may Oh! have to put things back a week. Okay. But we'll we'll think about that nearer the time. Alright? Okay. Okey-doke And you'll leave your compositions with me and I will look up, and if I can get the marks before then as I probably will I'll let you have them back. Okay? Okay. Right! So, one more week to go and then you've got a holiday. Yes ! Ha hum! At last! Yeah, that's right. Right? Bye bye girls! Bye bye! Ballet now. Cor you got ballet now have you? Yes we Hello Adrian! Alright? Yes thanks. So all set for a break tomorrow? Yeah. Thank you. Have I got to give your mummy change this time? Er yeah. It looks like it Oh yeah. doesn't it? I'll go and get some. I know, right. That's alright. That's fine. Erm right! What book are we on? Four A. It's alright, this is erm, yours. Yeah, I know I was looking for the erm oops! Now right! So how have we got on with that? Er ah, I did some at home but we haven't done any booklet work this week. You haven't done any booklet work? Okay. Because we've been doing Pythagoras theorem. Oh have you? Yeah. I'll just show you what we've been doing. Yeah. Show us what you've been doing. You understand it? Yeah well sort of! We're erm that's the booklet I'm on at the moment. What's this one? I haven't seen this one. Oh! It's it's er ? Yeah. Did that yu , yesterday. Not all that. Is that from here? Yeah. Yeah. Work from that. And an an the the sheets. And now I've just started this. I'm gonna finish the end of C six for homework, and I'm on C six A. And that's what we've been doing, all about it. Right. Okay? Yeah. So do you wanna finish that now? Yeah please. Right, okay. I I knew that erm I uns , I sa understand some of it but some of it I find a bit hard to understand like this bit, it says be careful, sometimes the unknown side is is the longest side and sometimes it is not. But I thi , I I can't, I know that you have to take it away. Yes but the thing is this in a right angle triangle Mm. the longest side is called what? Cos it The hypotenuse. The hypotenuse, right! So the longer side is always the hypotenuse. Yeah. Right? Now, what is the formula for your Pythagoras theorem? The sum of the erm I do I don't, I know, my dad's taught me a different one to Miss , she she taught me that erm i the, oh hang on! It's back here. I got a new book today so but she taught that is was ha! Erm, if I can find it! The right angle triangle. The areas and squares on the two short sides add together to equal the area on the square of the hypotenuse. Right! The square on the hypotenuse Yeah. equals the sum of the squares on the other two sides. Yeah. The square on the hypotenuse equals the sum of the squares on the other two sides. Okay. Alright? Yeah. And the squ hypotenuse is always the longest side. It's the side opposite the right angle. Mhm. So there's your right angle that is the hypotenuse and the square on the hypotenuse is equal to the sum of the squares, that's the su , the area of that square and the area of that square add together the sum of the squares on the other two sides. Okay. Alright? The square on the hypotenuse is equal to the sum of the squares on the other two sides. So what they're saying is this that the square on that side Mm. is thirty six, so what's the length of that side? Erm that must be nine. No! Sorry! Aha. What then? The square root of thirty six. What two numbers amount to Six. That's right. So the that side must be six centimetres Yeah. The square is six times six which is thirty six. That is four square centimetres. Mm. It's four centimetres and the square is sixteen so, what must be the area of that square? Twenty. Twenty. Right! So you've got to find what number multiplied together makes twenty. Mm. So it's going to, the length of that side is going to be the So you square the root of twenty. Find the square root of twenty don't you? You find the square root of twenty. That's right. And how do you find the square root of twenty? Just use that. You'll use that yes! Mm mm. Aren't you lucky? Mm. Because I we never had sa we never had erm calculators. Wha what did you have to do then? So you had to find the square root of by ar either arithmetic by Mm. doing in an arithmetic way or you had to use a sca , a log table. You had to use log tables. You had to use this sort of thing like find it up in a mess hasn't it? Erm I had to go to a table like that which said square roots and I had to look up twenty It's got on the back actually. Back of this book. Square roots twe Oh yeah. square root is twenty and it's four point four seven two one. Yeah, square root. That's right. But, as you say you can use this Which one do you push now? That one. That's right. Four point four seven two. Yeah. So, you know, that's well the way you do it. So th that's how you find that. So now when you got these three here I've done these. You've done those have you? Yeah, look. Here are. Well let's see that you got them right shall we? Six five A. So, this one you've got twenty five equals nine plus some number. Right? Mhm. So, that is going to be sixteen isn't it? Yeah. No it isn't. Yes it is! Yes it is, sixteen. So, what's that gonna be? Sixteen to erm, square root of sixteen Sixteen is four. Four. So that's gonna be four. So, C five A, have you got four? Yeah. Yes you have. Right. Now, B again, that the square root of that is going to equal the square root of that plus the square root of that. So you've got sixteen Mm. Or rather, sixty four e eighty one equals sixty four plus some number. So, sixty four from eighty one Gives you six which is erm, seventeen so it's Gives you er seventeen. Gives you seventeen. So now, for the answer to that one The square root of seventeen. you want the square root of seventeen which is four point one two. Right! Mm. So C again, you've got eleven elevens, what are eleven elevens? Er a hundred and twenty one. A hundred and twenty one equals thirty six, plus some number. Mm. So what is a hundred and twenty one less thirty six? Erm er is it six erm erm si Eighty five. eighty five, sorry. Have you got eighty five? The square root of eighty five? Yes, you have! Er, the square root of eighty five, that sounds reasonable so I would assume that's right. D you've got sixty four equals Mhm. twenty five plus some number, so what's that? Thirty nine? Yeah. The square root of thirty nine which is obviously reasonable so that's alright. Right! So how's Mm. C six? And you can't do C six? So that, those are alright? Yes, you can mar , well yes you can do. They're wrong, aren't they? I'll mark them right. Why don't you tick it neatly? I do! As I've said before! You don't. Okay then. No, it's alright! Leave Yeah. it now but erm Oh that's alright? that's , you know, you should erm Okay! So you're going to do C six. I will do them while you do them. Okay. Cos I Is that the hypotenuse? Yes? Which is the hypotenuse? That one? Which one? The opposite one to the right angle. Right. So it's that one. Right! So, so it must be it is erm can I write it down on here? I'll tell you what write it down on paper and then you can copy it into your book when you know you've got it right. How about that? Hang on a sec ! Five point three nine. Right! I'll settle for that. Is that right, the way I've done it? By the way, I I did that so I did area of square along the side. Well I mean you've got the right answer so erm Shall I just write shall I copy it in? Yes, what have you done? Erm five equals twenty five mm? Five doesn't equal twenty five. Five fives are twenty five! You haven't got five times, you've got five equals twenty five. Five square equals twenty five! That's what I've been doing I meant I mean that! Yahhh But if you write that look! Five equals twenty five is not true! Five squared equals twenty five yes! Okay then. Right? Yeah. Be very precise. But you shouldn't ever write five equals twenty five cos it doesn't! Okay then. You mean five squared, you mean five times five equals twenty five you're looking for five squared, so that's the right thing to write! Alright? Okay. That is the hypotenuse isn't it? That there? Yes. Mhm. C Do you do ninety nine take twenty five? Which one are we doing? B. Erm I'm gonna do What have you got? Er You've got you've got nine nines are eighty one, nine squared equals eighty, nine squared equals Ah so what? Eighty one equals nine ! Ah pa cha cha cha cha cha Right. Five squared equals twenty five right now what have you got to do? Nine into ninety erm eight in eighty one take twenty five. That's right. So erm that'll be se fifty five fifty, fifty six. Right. So then you square root it? That's right. Seven point four eight. Right. Is it a hundred take nine? That's right. Is the last one eight nine four? Eight hundred and ninety four? Mm. What's the square root of eighty? Eight point nine four two. That's better! Yeah. Right, eight point nine four. What did you get the other one? Nine point eight O. Right. That's right. Alright but just wondering why you've got this book. She gave it to us. All of you? Yeah. It's like, we do a bit of it each night and it's over two weeks. The last bit we did was only the small numbers. That or wi with that. Oh. An an we're just working through it as a class and that. Are you? Yeah. And we didn't we didn't do our booklets this week. Well this, you see this is the interesting thing because that hum What's that in? I've, I've just been dealing with that in a booklet. Mm. If I could erm only remember which booklet it was. Erm That pa that page or was it? No, perhaps it wasn't a booklet. Perhaps it wasn't a booklet. I'm just wondering why, cos someone's been dealing with that Yeah. just this week. No! I can't, I'll have to find it some other time but er right yellow book two, let's have a look yellow book two. No! I'll leave it. Right! Er, so now what erm Do you wanna do some erm Have you done that booklet? booklet? This bo , I haven't finished it. Erm you, have you done any on it? Yes. Right, let's mark what you've done. That goes with that. You do this in your school book do you? Yeah. Right, that's right. That's right. Shall I tick it? Can do if you want. That's right. Is this all right? Well er yes, A five is on the answer is on the erm back cover of your book. Is A four alright? A four's alright, yeah. Now loo , look on the, no no, wait a moment! Look on the back cover of your booklet inside the back cover. Right, that's alright. They're alright. That's right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Are they all right? Mhm. Right. Shall we co continue with that or do you want You can do if you want. Is that but you're doing that at school are you as well? Yeah. Right okay. So B six. Er,one to mark here. Yep. This one. Well, I think perhaps what we'll do cos you've missed quite a few of these out so I think what we'll do erm is to leave that what you're doing there for a moment we'll go through this mark this and the one's you haven't done we'll do so that you've got this one straight. Okay? Okay. There's only one I didn't do. That one. Oh yes! So there is. Well, well anyway we'll do do that and see see what the other's like. You've been caught! Right! This one posts are erected at a hundred metre intervals on a motorway, how many posts are there in a distance of four thousand seven hundred kilometres? Twenty seven. No. As I say, you have been caught in a little trap! Posts are erected Forty sev six posts. posts are erected every hundred metres, right? Mm. There's a hundred metres there's two hundred metres there's three hundred metres how many posts in three hundred metres? Four. Sorry! Mm. Yeah. Right. Because at no metres there's one post and at the end of a hundred metres you've got two posts so you got one post more So it must be forty six. distance. That's what I say, forty eight. Forty eight right! Got it? Always Okay. be wary of that. And the same thing applies posts are a hundred metres apart. Mm. If you are at the fifth post how far have you gone from the start? Six hundred metres. How far have you gone from the start? Four hundred. Right! Fifth post, one, two, three, four, five the fifth post you have gone four hundred metres. Oh. So wherever you get that sort of question just stop and think Okay. because it's either one more or it's one less. The only time that that doesn't apply is if you are thinking in terms of posts in a fence around a square field or round a circular field. Okay. Because now after one hundred metres you've got two posts after two hundred metres you've got three posts, after three hundred metres you got four posts, after four hundred metres you've got five posts but after you've five hundred metres you've only got five posts cos that one doubles up. Yeah. So you got one, two, three, four, five spaces and you got one, two, three, four, five, posts Mhm. but on a straight line your Yeah. spaces are one less than the number of posts. Alright? Okay. So just remember that. That's why I said you have been caught! That's a ste , one of those little trap questions. Yeah. Now this one, four hedges together have a mass of two hundred grams how many have a mass of two and ha ? Which page? Eighty two. Found that quickly didn't you? Er percentages is it? Yeah. Right. E one. Have you looked at this? Let's have a look at it. B's height is sixty percent of A side. There's B and it's sixty percent of A C's height is a hundred and twenty percent of A's height. There's a hundred percent so a hundred and twenty it means it's more than A's height. If C's height was a hundred percent of A's height it means it was exactly the same. If it's less than a hundred it's smaller if it's more than a hundred it's greater. Now the decimal equivalent of hundred and twenty is one point two and there you've got nought and nought a hundred and one so ninety percent is point nine, eighty percent is point eight and a hundred and ten percent is one point one, and a hundred and twenty percent is one point two. So what you're doing, in fact is to if you've got a hundred and twenty percent if you divide that by of a hundred in other words, you move your decimal point two places that's a decimal. So a hundred and twenty percent as a decimal fraction is one point two. All you do is to move that decimal point two places. Alright? So to calculate a hundred and twenty percent of amount to calculate a hundred and twenty percent of an amount you multiply by one point two. If you wanted to calculate eighty percent of an amount you would multiply by point eight. A hundred and twenty percent you are multiplying by the decimal equivalent which is one point two. So write down decimal equivalent of a hundred and forty percent. That's right. Now calculate a hundred and forty percent of seven point five kilogrammes. Have you got a, you've got a calculator haven't you? Haven't got it with you? No. But you've got your own? Scientific one? No? No. You could do with one. Alright? It's one of those things that you could do with really. If you've got a birthday or something coming up and if somebody wants to know what to buy you that's what you want! You want one of these scientific ones. So, you want a hundred and forty percent of seven point five. Let's have a look. What is it? A hundred and forty percent, so it's one point four times seven point five. Try it. Use that one. Yes you use your finger . One point four times Oh it's . Ten point five, that's right. Okay. Ten point five killogrammes. Right! Put it on the, on the er on that desk which probably will be better. So, alright calculate a hundred and thirty percent of sixty seven pounds. That's right,a , what is that? Eighty seven point nine. Yeah, so it's eighty seven pounds ten isn't it? That's right. Right, B a hundred and twenty percent off thirty two metres? Oops! No . Start again. Right, one point two metres times thirty two. Yeah? What is it? Thirty eight point four. That's right! Now, a hundred and eighty percent of seventy four metres? One three three eight two. That's right. Right! E three A. What are the decimal equivalents of a hundred and sixty percent? That's right. A hundred and sixty three percent? Six six four. Yeah, point six three. Good! You move that decimal point you see, in two places and it's one point three. A hundred and six percent? One point nought six. That's right! One point nought six. Again,yo you, the figure staying the same, all you do is to move a decimal point two places. So D is One point three nine . One point three nine. Alright. And E? One point nine . One point nine or one point nine, yes. Right! A factory plans to increase it's output by fifty percent next year. So if this stands for this year's output at a hundred percent fifty percent of it has to be added on to give next year's . So there's your hundred percent and you add fifty percent. So next year's output is to be a hundred and fifty percent of this year's . Because you add fifty percent to the hundred percent and a hundred plus fifty is a hundred and fifty. So the output is going to be a hundred and fifty percent of what is was last year. The decimal equivalent of a hundred and fifty percent is one point five O or one point five. Next year's output is to be one point five times this year's. So you multiply this year's output by one point five and it'll give you next year's output. Alright? You add on that fifty percent or whatever it happens to be to the hundred percent which gives you the new figure. You change that into a decimal that is what you multiply by. So, let's have a look. If something is increased by fifty percent it is multiplied by one point five. A new town plans to increase it's population by fifty percent during the next five years. If the present population is eighty three percent calculate the planned population in five years time . So what are you gonna multiply that by? One point five. Right! So it's eighty three thousand and what do you get? One two four five O O. That's right. One hundred and twenty four thousand five hundred. Now, calculate the new populations when these populations are increased by fifty percent ? Now, you can give the answer in this form you needn't write it out in full. So, what you're gonna do is to multiply sixty four point eight by Haven't got anything. one point five and that'll give you an answer which you will write down followed by the word million. Alright? So, sixty four point eight multiplied by one point five Ninety seven point two. Right! Ninety seven point two. Good! Now this one. That's fifty eight point eight. A fifty eight point eight million. And C? Eighty nine point seven million. That's right! Okay. An airline is to increase all it's fares by seventeen percent . Now this erm illustrates the increase. There's your hundred percent it's got to go up by one point seven to a hundred and seventeen percent. One hundred and seventeen is one point one seven. So you multiply your hundred by one point one seven and you get one hundred and seventeen. The new fare is one hundred and seventeen percent of the old fare. The decimal equivalent of a hundred and seventeen percent is one point one seven. Move two decimal yo decimal points down those two places, alright? So to get the new fare you multiply the old fare by one point one seven. The old fare multiplied by one point one seven gives you the new fare. That represents a seventeen percent increase. So at three,before the seventeen the percent increase the fare from London to Feraccas was five hundred and fifty pounds calculate the new fare after the increase . Six O three point five. Right! So that's six hundred and forty three pounds fifty pence Fifty. isn't it? Right! F four. If you want to increase something by forty five percent what do you multiply it by? Four point five. One if you're increasing it by forty five percent if it was a hundred percent and you increase it by forty five hundred percent Oh it'll be nought point No. A hundred percent plus forty five percent will be what? A hundred and forty A hundred and forty five. five percent. Right? Now what's that of a decimal equivalent? One point four five. Right! Alright? So, if you want to increase something by forty five percent what do you multiply it by? One point erm four five. Think in terms of putting a one in front of that and then moving a decimal point two places and it's one point four five. So okay, F four A is one point four five. Alright? That's the first, that's your answer to that first question. F four A was one point four five. Now it says No! Just one point four five. Oh yeah. A hundred and forty five percent is one point four five, alright? So now it says increase twenty eighty pounds by forty five percent. So you're gonna multiply the twenty eight by? One point four five. Right! Forty point six. Forty pounds sixty, right. Right! Right! F five, now all of these you've got to increase e something by something there so you've got to change each of those percentages you've got to think of it as added to a hundred and then the decimal equivalent. So what are you gonna multiply the sixty seven by? One point six two. One point six two. Right! Good! One O eight point five four. That's right, one O eight point five four and it is in killogrammes. That's right. Right. Right! So F six A. If you want to increase something by seven percent what do you multiply it by? Er nought point seven. Sorry? Say it again. Nought seven, one point nought seven. Yeah, one point nought seven, that's right! So your ar answer to A is one point nought seven. Good! So now you increase sixty five pounds by seven percent. Sixty nine point thirty five. Sixty nine pound thirty five pence. Right! Good! Okay, now F seven's gonna be the same. Increase ninety two pounds by three percent. That's right. Nine pound four seventy six. Good! Right. That's right. Good! Right! Alfred's salary is eighty thousand four hundred and twenty pounds and Alberta's is seven thousand a hundred and eighty four Alfred has a twenty two percent increase and Alberta a thirty eighty percent increase who earns more after all this ? So what you've got to do is to put down Alfred's Alfred and put his new salary down and then you have to Alberta and her new salary and see which is which is the most. So you're going to look for Oh, tell me again ! Alright. So Oh . so right, eighty four two nought multiplied by Erm eight that's right. So what's that, ten two seven two forty? Yeah. Put a, put the forty down cos it's forty pence. Right! Yep! That's good! Now, Alberta's. Right! So, earns more afterwards? Alfred. Right! So Alfred is the answer. Right! Oh, we're coming to negative numbers. Have we done negative numbers? No. No. Right. Positive, negative numbers can be marked on a number line which extends in both directions. You can do some simple calc calculations by thinking of a number line, for example, two, minus two, plus five means start at minus two then go up five so you'll finish at three. So minus two, plus five equals Three. plus three . Right? Minus three, minus two means start at minus three then go down minus two, so minus three and minus two is minus five . Alright? Now, before you right them down just tell me what they are and then we can go back and write them down. Here you've got, minus four and plus three. That's minus one. Good! Minus four and plus six? Two. Plus two, right. Yes, two, yeah okay. So write them down cos yo you obviously can do those alright. It's plus two minus one Minus one , yeah. Minus It's two. Yeah, two. Now two minus five? Minus three. Minus three. Minus one minus three? Minus four. Right! Minus six plus two. Minus four. Right. And three minus eight? Minus five. Right! The number line method works when you have to add or subtract and ordinary positive number plus three means go up three, minus three means go down three. But it does not tell you how to do four plus minus three or seven minus, minus three, for example but it does not tell you how to do four plus minus three, or seven minus minus three where you have to add or subtract a negative number. Adding a negative number. Think what happens if you start with four and add on different numbers. Four plus three, as the number you add on goes down so the answer goes down. Four plus three equals seven four plus two equals six, four plus one five, four plus nothing equals four, four plus minus one is three cos you're coming down here, three two, one, nought, minus one, minus two, minus three, minus four, minus five. So as the numbers that you add on get one less so the answers get one less. So, four plus minus one is three, four plus minus two is two, four plus minus three is one, four plus minus four is nothing, four plus minus five is minus one. What is important is that you realise that that number is minus one that number is one plus one if you like but you don't need to say it but if th any, if the sign isn't there it's assumed that it's plus. But that number and that number are two different numbers. They're as different as one is from three. That is a different number from that, that is a different number from that. And that number is minus one. Don't think of it as taking away one thinking of it, think of it as minus one, a number. That is minus two that is minus three that is minus four, that is minus five. You've done some algebra haven't you? Found out the value of X well you can X equals minus five. And that is a value for X, it equals minus five and minus five is a number. So, try and remember that, that that is a number in it's own right. Now when you start thinking of what to do you've got plus four and you've got minus three if you take the smaller digit, now that digit is four, that digit is three if you take the smaller digit from the larger digit, you take the three from the four you get one and the answer is whatever sign that larger number is. When you've got two numbers that are both, all pluses, four and two is six, four and one is five, four and nothing is four, four and minus one means you got plus four minus one, is one less than four, it's three. You've got four plus numbers, you got two minus numbers which leaves you with two plus numbers. Let's go on and see whether you can pick it up. Write down the next two lines of a pattern of the bottom of the opposite page . Notice that four plus minus one has the same answer as four minus one. Four plus minus two has the same answer as four minus two and so on because the plus and minus gives you a minus. So we've got four plus minus one is three, four plus minus two is two, four plus minus three is one, four plus minus four is nought, four plus minus five is minus one what's going to be the next one? Four plus Minus six Equals? makes minus two. Right! So write that down in your book now safely. A is A two, write down the next two lines. So you got four plus minus six is minus two, then you'll have four plus minus seven is gonna be? Minus three. Right! Okay? So let's go on. Adding minus N is the same as subtracting N adding the minus number is the same as subtracting it. So copy and complete these . So write down A three A. Five plus minus three equals five minus three equals? Two. Two. Right! Two plus minus six is the same as two minus six which is going to be? You got plus two minus six Four. Mm? Four. You take the smaller digit from the larger digit so you take the two Eight. from the six and it gives you four but then you give the sign of a larger so it's minus four. Alright? Now this is minus three plus minus four which is the same as minus three minus four. Now you can, those are both the same sides so you're gonna en add them together and give it the sign that is common to both. Minus six. Minus? Six? Three and four? Seven, sorry! So , alright? Minus seven, yeah? Happy? Right, so A four,work these out . Now if you can do them then just put the answer down. Six plus minus three is the same as six plus and a minus give you a minus, so it's the same as six minus three which is? What's six minus three? Three. Three! Right! You take the smaller digit from the larger digit, so you take three from six gives you three you give the sign of the bigger number which is a plus. Now this time you've got two minus five. Yeah. You take the two, the smaller digit from the larger digit but you give the answer the sign of a larger digit. So it's? Minus Minus three! Alright? Yeah? Okay, you got minus one and a minus four. Minus four. No, you got a minus one and a minus four they're both the same signs, cos it's minus one, minus four they're both the same signs so you put them together four and one make? Five? And you've got Minus one. minus , so they're minus five. Let's just have a look at if we've got six and four we can have six plus four or you can have six minus four we can have minus six, minus four or you can have minus six plus four. Now that's a plus six and a plus four what's the answer? Ten. Ten. Nice and straightforward. Both the signs are the same. So you add them together and you give it the same sign. This one what's the answer to that gonna be? You've got a minus six and a minus four. Both the same signs. Ten. Can't be the same as that. They're both minus. Those are both plus so we call it plus ten these are both minus so the answer is? Ten. Minus ten. Alright? If the signs are the same you add them together, you give the ssssa the sign that they're both the same as. Now, here you've got six minus four now what's six minus four? Two. So that equals two. Now here you got minus six plus four take the smaller from the larger and give it the sign of a larger. Minus two. Right! Does that help a little bit? Let's do another one. Let's do erm eight plus three eight minus three minus eight, minus three, and minus eight plus three. Let's see if we can do those. What's eight and three? Eleven. Right. What's minus eight and minus three? Minus nine. No! Minus eight and minus three? Both the same signs. Minus eleven. Minus eleven. Now this is easy, eight minus three is? Five. Five. But this is a minus eight That's five, yes. plus three, it's minus five. Alright? Tear that out and keep that by your side because that gives you all the four possibilities. Alright? When the signs are the same if they're two pluses you add them and it's plus if they're both minus you add them and it's minus here you take the smaller from the larger and give it the sign of a larger. Three from eight is five, that's plus five. Three from eight is five, but that is minus, so it's gonna be minus five. Okay? So keep that by your side and see how we get on. So we've what were we doing? A B D! This one here is it? Minus two plus minus five. Which is minus two minus five. Minus two plus the minus gives you a minus, so you got minus two, minus five. Er, minus seven. Minus seven. Right! Now here you've got nought and a plus minus gives you a minus, so it's nought a minus four? Minus three. Right! Good! Three minus three? Three Nought. minus three. Nought. Nought, right! Minus five minus two? Minus three. Erm Minus and a minus. Same as that one, look. Minus two, minus five. You got that one right. What was that? Minus two and minus five. Seven. Is minus seven. Right? So here you got minus five, minus two which is? Minus seven. Minus seven. Now here you got seven minus nine? Take the smaller from the larger which will give you? Seven from two, nine is two and that number is a minus so the answer's going to be a minus, so it's gonna be? Minus two. Minus two. Alright? There we are, are you okay? Did you get any more? No I haven't No I've just picked it up Oh I see, mm Some money in the, something of Yeah I just saw the headlines with it, I didn't, I haven't actually read it, no, yes I must have a look at that There has been really, a very sharp frost this morning, the erm, the park is white and the roofs are white his own erm stability don't you really don't you? Retired of course he's no, no longer, mm I think it must be, you know, he's probably building this wall all over I suppose people object to the wall Do you know, I don't think I've ever seen that before where the robin has gone up onto the seeds Oh they don't often do that no They've been inundated with them I expect I've seen another one, the address for it is would you believe? Is it so? N N W gosh Oh this should be interesting this is from the A A erm travelling abroad you know Oh yeah useful because erm, I'd still love to do another trip abroad you know, go down to France go to perhaps What's Molly's telephone number? Is it O, two, is it's yes Oh this wasn't yesterday No this was the thirty first of January, it was fifty two minutes, two pounds, one, two pounds eighteen pence. Well I've been very good I've not been phoning anybody else Well actually it, it is down this quarter, it is down this quarter, because our erm, our total last, last quarter, the balance brought forward was seventeen pounds fifty five and this time it's six pounds seventy six, so we've reduced the erm the deficit so it is down The er that was I mean, that was, there's a couple you know one to Bridget and one to erm Demelza obviously that we, we phone them up and that's fair enough, you know but, I was just interested in how one and, yeah, well didn't we phone her and hadn't she had all that trouble, she'd had shingles and Oh yeah and she was feeling very depressed wasn't she so that was that was it that was probably what it is Yeah and I'd forgotten that I'd spoken to her the other night yeah no, no the total of current charges was fifty seven pounds and we pay sixty eight pounds in to pay, mind you that isn't so good when I look at it cos there four lots are going this month, this quarter, still never mind eh? Alright if we've done it in this quarter Well yeah I mean it, it er Happened that way it just happened that way you know the twentieth of November and there's the nineteenth of February Yes so it's nineteenth of February Yeah, twenty pounds has gone in and that's when it went in yes, yes Mm, mm But when is the phone call the phone calls, er, well the seventeenth of February looks to be the last itemized one And where was that to? That was to Bridget well no that was only last night before last wasn't it? This Might do that then, if we've got the money this is up to the eighteenth ah, ah, this is up to the eighteenth This is the twentieth, yes it was the nineteenth eighteenth of February nineteenth I phoned her It just didn't get in, right another big one as well But that one the other night I don't mind it having been so big, because it was sort of helping my conscience Yeah, is the, there's a leaflet here about B T you see and they you, you know the erm the O eight nine eight numbers which are these erm Yeah any entertainment sort of thing or, or like you ring up best on the thing Yeah the charge to call an O eight nine eight number from any phone other than a pay phone is thirty six pence per minute at cheap rate and forty eight per minute at all other times, over half of this money is paid by B T to the business providing the informational service Yeah, yeah so, you know, it's making a profit to all the people that are using that The best will get a profit Aye that's right Unexpected, strange Strange strange strange strange oh dear on your well that's not surprising It's making it difficult to save money Mars your ruling planet normally endows you with drive, but as Saturn grows nearer your energy level will decrease now how about that? Mm Do it to me Capricorn this is an extremely significant time, a close relationship has undergone a complete transformation in the solar eclipse of the sun, you may feel insecure this week I always feel insecure but only temporary oh good increasing security and money, investment are proving sound, there is no need to worry about my expenditure Oh Oh good, shall I go out and have a rave up shall we? Mm My health, I am feeling strong and looking confident on the outside, so you must try and feel it on the inside oh dear the planets are on your side this week for love, needless to say oh best on the nineteenth money, finance has become a little shaky as Saturn the planet of restriction approaches to Venus on the twenty sixth, this is not a time for speculation. Health, living generally, are enjoying good health, however those of you who are born in earlier to re-think your diet and the end of September as well I should think If you're thinking of going to France this year you'll be deli , you'll be delighted to hear that we're currently offering a three week inclusive holiday in the South of France for the price of two weeks, ask at your local A A shops for details of this and the free ferry crossing offer Oh Oh so do we want three weeks in France? Where to in? I dunno, I mean it's erm We're going to France of course I know we are then and if we book. if we book er, any, er, erm, a deal with them through P & O European Ferries, if we book one car and a person on a standard return fare crossing, they'll give you a free five day return to be used on the same route in the autumn them are the deal with exclusive to the A A so don't just get across once, cruise across twice Mm Hello right oh dear good morning I'm glad to see there's another one as idiotic as mine It's embarrassing isn't it? That's a beautiful sight isn't it? Oh dear the colours of the trees reflected in the lake, everything is beautiful and the gulls and it's so still that would be a mega painting wouldn't it? That is beautiful oh good morning Thanks Well put it on there No show you put away like that going to this erm, what did he say? The erm Oh yes I think it was You know I very carefully picked up my glasses and put them in the case and put it in my in there Mm, mm Is this the new marmalade? No No it's mm mains water burst which was between Church Road and erm Devon Square Yeah South West engineers were called in to try and to trace the leak in the mains pipe and after identifying it they carried out the repair work on Saturday and Sunday, but while at the scene early on Friday they smelled gas, and the British Gas South West whose workmen has discovered a kerb side leak, they worked throughout the night in there to cut away the damaged pipe repaired to make it safe Strewth For three days out going traffic was deserted by Devon Square and vehicles heading into the town from Penn Inn were filtered into a one lane of the dual carriageway and diverted along Station Road and Lower Queen Street God So that's what they did at Devon Square, that's why that was all that, that people came up East Street and then had to go down Devon Square and back out Yeah you know the road we came out of You know you saw an advert as we turned into Devon Square, building plots for sale Devon Square, oh yes, yes, yes, mm That's, that doctor's surgery Oh is it? Yeah numbers twenty five, twenty six of the junction of Torquay Road is for sale with a building plot in one of the gardens, the premises being used for many years as doctor's surgery ancillary accommodation and car parking, the property will be available when the doctors move into the new practice home in joining Cricket Field Road car park Yeah that's what it said, mm Mm detailed plans have been approved for a single storey dwelling in the garden on one of the houses condition on the surgery reverting to living accommodation, the houses would have considerable scope for use as offices subject to planning or paramedical use especially where large car parking areas are required, the whole is available at two hundred and fifty thousand pounds, but offers may be considered for number twenty five with the garden and parking area building plots to the agent Oh, the whole of two hundred and fifty thousand Yeah I reckon you'd, the building plot itself would of erm, and I've seen them advertised, for about fifty thousand pounds Yeah that's right, mm You were saying this morning on the end of the news you were talking about the four man Yeah thing and they were saying it started already and the Austrians were in the lead at that time Oh You might get it on erm Ceefax Mm On there you see it does say six o'clock Olympics today the first two runs in the four man bobsleigh, sport on Friday at two twenty five Mm with winter Olympics that have to run in the four man bobsleigh It just, it just said Olympic three, nine, one, but there's nothing on here at the moment now No, well, he, you know, just at the end when they're giving the last news just before nine o'clock Three nine five erm, said that it'd started already, erm whoever was doing the erm, whoever was doing the sport and that with the bob, he had said he could of dropped in a note to say that erm started already and at that stage, erm Oh Mark Tad has lost, a lot of ground to make up for Britain only setting the eighth fastest time and crewman only clocked fifty eight point four nine O to being handicapped by a poor start number of ten Oh they went down at ten? set the pace for Austria with the , track record run of fifty seven point seven four and the second bob is fifteenth see I mean they're, they're, they're fifty seven, eight for nine against fifty seven, seven, four, so I mean they're not half a second then, I mean they were, they were first in the two man and then they dropped six after one run so Yeah so I mean it's erm Mm you can make it up obviously We could do, yes, yeah we'll do that Better, have a better selection I would think Okay well I I just happen to see the Yeah the advert for them, well we'll go out there first thing, I mean we'll go out there first and then we can come back and get a card and we should know whether we've got to get one here or not shan't we? Yeah, buy sixty varieties of fuchsia cuttings, thirty nine pence each, they're under three pounds fifty Oh they're doing, you know here Well that might not be a bad idea to get the cuttings now because er that lot will be cheaper than I reckon of we'll see it now Yeah mm the frost is going fairly rapidly now, oh I know what I meant to do, I'll go and do that now You were going to feed the Yeah I got the, I've got to put erm seed out as well cos that's gone Daffodils Daffodils Yeah, cos they're quite tall there aren't they? Yeah, it looks as if they've just been sort of put in in a heap Well I don't understand how they're like that cos I mean there's, this side of the pot hasn't got any and I would of thought I would of put them in Spread them out Yeah, so perhaps they've moved That looks nice Yes the white's all gone, I mean the, the playing fields smart that are along here were absolutely thick white Mm this morning but it's all gone except for where in in the shadow Yes, yes, yes, yes you can just see it's left the shadow of the trees, yes Oh I meant to switch me pump off, no, still I think it'll be alright cos there's water in the erm, in the pond is alright, just won't be able to go through the waterfall Well we're going just out here and then we're coming back aren't we? Yeah I wonder if they might have anything don't know whether they sell other than the time No they don't do normally but I, I'd like to go and ask there some time whether they did Oh that's the one for sale which I saw advertised in the paper today Did you? Mm oops There's cows Mm, one was, I don't know whether they both were, were they? Well I would of said so, but Perhaps they were , mm looks like it don't it? Are you returning Doreen and today? Because they're saying because their kitchen is in absolute uproar Oh is it? they're going out to eat each day you see I see and erm I don't think I can, you know want to invite them back to our place here, so I told them I can't but erm I suppose we could always go out with them, if they were going out you know, if they haven't made any other plans Well yes we could do that well he doesn't seem A car to be in a very great hurry able to get up any faster perhaps he'll be alright on the flat I've seen some as well in erm some way, I looked in and this weekend they've got sort of erm vegetables in including one carrot or yes try this weekend ourselves to see what's there Mind you we've now caught up with some more traffic which is going even more slowly. Well he's rushed on now you see, that fellow has in the pick-up truck I mean, did you see him? Yes I did See the pick-up truck? Yes he's caught up with two more cars Cars, I actually saw those on the side because of that well never mind it's a nice morning Yeah we're not in any desperate hurry This one in front has obviously got a fear of going more than forty miles an hour that's for sure oh Oh he's pulling in thank goodness for that mm probably belongs to the yes it does you see Mm And there's quite a few wasn't there? Yep Mind, must of re-done those toilets or something cos look they've even got a disabled Mm so they have, yes Well I got six trailers and four bush ones Yeah yeah, five different plants, two of each And that's, that's ten is it? You've got ten That's ten and I've bought that parsnip, it's only eighty nine, there's three plants there Oh and if there's plant out in the sun for one we can put one in a pot and keep it in the kitchen Ha, I've just been looking around things that So you haven't bought anything? I have, I haven't seen anything Right, okay well then we'll go into market or Tesco's right Yes it's nearly opening time Yeah no, they've got them in the garden yeah, they've got them in the garden anyway haven't they? Did you say you wanted some pot some, or did you get them? Well I got a couple and I thought well I'll wait till I go out to Tregole now, they're probably cheaper there than anywhere I just happened to see these selection of pots no I think there these fancy ones more no they've got ordinary ones here but I mean these, are a whole lot expensive than they were at W Smith's, yes, erm I just don't believe this price no I suppose they're three for one fifty nine, but that's the size I got That works out at fifty P What? That works out at fifty P Yeah, well I paid forty forty nine I think or something like that And as you say they'll probably be cheaper at Cheaper at Tregole, yes right Do you want them now if you wanted them? No I mean I'm alright for the moment, I've got those two Oh Put the potatoes in the bottom Two thirty nine please Hello nice to see you How you keeping alright? Fine, yes, yes, mm a bit of a nip in the air this morning Yes it's nice though isn't it? I like it like that It was very sharp this morning first thing It was because when I came up it was minus one in the car, cos I got er, oh thanks, I've got a temperature thing in the car Aha and I haven't seen that for a while No but it's lovely you know when we were coming past the playing fields, it's erm I didn't there's ten there Thank you Are there some trailers? Oh yes I can see they're trailer Mm, mm And this as well? No, this is mine, I'd better pay for my own Four thirty nine please How much? Four Four thirty nine please, oh that's not nice is it having to pay for your own I don't think it is either We'll have to a nice red erm Thanks very much you know a red flower pot plant for somebody who's got a ruby wedding this weekend, but there's nothing up there, not much at all, Azalea's are sort of all off you know Not fancy a Polyanthus they're very pretty and they come in erm a box No, yeah I saw those, yes , yes but erm you know erm put them in one of those and yes they look really nice in the red containers Mm Do you want me to show you what they look like? Erm well look, let's get rid of these We had this one you see put together and it looked quite nice, it all in reds You gonna try and put them in there? Well I try Here's a bag look Now if I can put them in here, it'll stop these falling over, providing they don't get squashed with them let you have that one Thanks One O six please thank you Whoops Always doing that No, me I'll just go and look and see what this looks like Yeah okay Okay? Yes I'm waiting, my wife's gone back to be tempted I think she wants your advice How much is it worth? Two ninety nine Right Now can you see this, she, she just put that together, now that does look quite nice doesn't it? Yes that does look nice, yes I think so But if we sort of, you know, she said, you know look around and arrange something yourself Well I think that, I'm not sure the white doesn't set it off Yeah, but I want a better white bigger than that one Oh I see what about a pink? That's rather pretty isn't it? That was the one I liked the look of And another pink There's one there look Yes or this one? or that one, yes Mm, it's a bit tatty perhaps in places that one, that one's coming out, what do you think? Which one? That, that one there? Yeah, or this one I think the other one looks rather pretty This one? Right Is it, is it or is that the one you said that Well it's one flower that's probably gone, but take that off really That's got buds in it there? Yeah, okay, put that one back there then What do you think? Yes, fine, now you want it in the red one and not the silver one, yes? Well I think the red Yes well I think so, I think so alright That's the erm some of these There's not much red there is there? Not much flower there is there in that one, look, or is there? No, no, we could do with changing that Oh Let's see if we can get a, see there's a whole lot of buds as an example in that one isn't there? Yes, that'll do okay? Fifty five each, I don't know how much I think she said two ninety nine And that's ninety nine and four How much each are they? Sixty five, so that's two sixty and ninety nine Yeah, but I think it's two ninety nine for the whole lot Oh is it? Yes look, under the, under the bottom Oh yes, yes it says that yes That's your change, thank you Erm and erm, at least these look a bit Oh that's alright These are ten P each and the other's twenty two Are these blood oranges? No No, they're so similar you know, seven forty nine altogether please thank you did you get a handle to go with that one? Did I get a? Handle No, is there a handle? Yeah, in the basket in the wicker basket there, there's a handle and it just clips on Thanks I'll buy a handle No you can buy, get the handles here separately Oh you can get the handles separately Can I just advise you to swap that one, some of the flowers Yeah, go on are going a bit thanks very much Can you swap that one, the flowers are going a bit Oh yes I'm just looking at, erm this one it looks so pretty, no not that That one? Yeah that's what do you think of that one Yeah that's very nice, yes I like that Unusual That's a nice one Yes that is a nice one You see all the buds coming out Oh yes, yes mm, mm alright? I'm wondering now, looking at it, if that erm is a bit tall for the rest of them Yes Do you know what I mean? It does look a bit tall, you're quite right, erm that one's quite a low one, what about that one? Yes I thinking of the red Thinking of the red really Deeper red? Yes Here you go, what about that one? Oh that's, yes What about that one? That's got nice yeah that's a nice one Yeah, okay Yeah, okay, right, yeah Yeah? Oh that's nice of you, thank you very much You're welcome I've got a handle here, I've got a handle Oh you have Bye That looks nice erm, all we have to do now is go and erm get a card and take the price, oh the prices must be on these Yeah they're on there, take that off On that, mm, mm Yes Does he want to play? Here have a sticker for these today that's two ninety nine then please Thanks No I've got, do you want to change another note? No I don't, I think I can, you witness that I paid for this won't you? Oh yes most definitely, I don't think it's gonna go in there, oh it might do, just to protect it a wee bit, you know Lovely, thank you very much, many thanks indeed You're welcome and a penny change Thank you very much Thank you bye now Alright? Bye Oh that's very nice of you, thank you very much indeed, many thanks. Run out of arms Yes, that's right Well that was good, that's very attractive for three pounds isn't it? Yes I think so Put this in the back in the Box couldn't we? Yeah Yes that was a nice, good job I mentioned it to her wasn't it? Yeah I mean we wouldn't of known, I never saw that erm, you know diamond thing with, four, I mean even then I when we bought them I was thinking four sixty fives, that'll be two sixty and erm three sixty, so you save a bit really don't you? Oh yes Now we'll go down and try and get a card will we? Yeah And what else was it? I've got to go to Muriel Oh that's right plenty of time to get out Well he's so badly parked you see, he's got to wait for both traffics to go whereas I could go easily Yeah Now where shall we look for a ruby wedding card? You would generally go for that one in the market wouldn't you? Well no I don't know that I would, I would probably go to erm the one, you know, by the egg basket Mm, funnily enough I don't like it in there well I suppose I might get something in they have some quite nice ones as well don't they? Yes Tim was quite taken with that big card that he had for his birthday Mm There now, two well it's the only way the well somebody else is coming, join onto us, but er learner as well, why most of them seem to be learners don't they? Yeah You hardly ever see a motor cyclist these days you know unless he's got an L plate up of course you can't get passed because of the erm Mind you the van's a long way behind him anyway Now he is, isn't it? Now what are we going to do erm? Well I think what I'll do, if I go round by the market I can drop you there by the multi-storey car park and you can then just walk through to Baston's can't you? Yeah And I'll go down to the church and park by the church, how about that? And then you can walk back down is that alright? Oh that way, yes That's an ambulance would you believe Ooh help anyway, one less, there's a car sort of in front of the ambulance kind of thing Yes I think that must of come out in the roundabout there, it wasn't in front before, erm, so I'll do that yes, I'll drop you off Yeah and I and you can just walk through to Baston's, whatever and I'll go to Muriel Baston's or erm Oh whatever you want go up to the shops by the egg basket if need be So I'll see you back at the church I mean if I can just park down by Devon Square I will, but otherwise I'll park Yeah, right behind the church Perhaps the ambulance has got somebody really ill in there or something I wouldn't of thought so, I would of thought it was more or less the van than anything else It's a ruby wedding it is, isn't it? Mm, mm Just sugar and eggs in there, and the card why did you come back for? Eh? Why did you come back for? Well I, I turned round and backed in so that you could see me here Oh The sugar was only fifty nine in the market as I came past at Charlie's you know, I thought well I'll get some of that and I got those jumbo eggs there, only a pound a dozen big ones, you know You done? Well I'm looking for my glasses really Oh I see, they're probably under the paper, yeah Wonders will never cease Pardon? I say wonders will never cease I have just written a receipt for Mrs and I have put it in her envelope and I have written my name in, in on, I've put from and put my name and crossed out caretaker and put treasurer and I have put underneath we do not have a caretaker so we will see what happens How did, how is it that they got to go back with them? How's that? Oh well her father decided that erm his wife put them in there again erm, his wife hasn't realized how much it would be looking after er Oh he's taken something else has he? Do you know the pots there, the two that I bought were forty seven out at Havercom, they were seventeen out at Traygo Oh so I got four more, had a look round thought I saw it, but Traygo was heaving I tried to park by the erm garden centre, but to not only were there people all parked there, there was a great articulated lorry delivering stuff, so you went in and you couldn't even then get out, go and park further up Still you going and pick up your own well I parked I parked sort of out in the car park and then got a tr a trolley and wheeled it rather than have to try and get back into that lot. What else did you get? Flower pots and compost that's all oh let's have a drink of water Phone call from somebody who wanted to book the hall, erm children's party, and erm this person kept on saying are you the man that does the, that sort of lets out the hall I am Mrs who's sort of the secretary and books, does the booking for the hall, he couldn't get that, anyway it occurred to me afterwards it must of been the grandmother of that girl that bought the erm, cos he kept on talking a Michelle and that's the girl that bought our suite and I reckon it's her child's birthday party, she said erm you know my, you know my son-in-law, I said do I? Yeah, Frank, Frank and of course and then afterwards I realized that that was Michelle That's right, yeah oh did she? I always times, the thing I forgotten to think about was that lock, I really ought to do that Anyway, erm she said will you tell I said you know, will you bring your own things? Meaning you know paper plates and what not and she said oh last time sister Joyce would even let me use the kitchen, I said you can use the kitchen, I just wondered erm, you know, so anyway Well I brought one of those up and put them on the window sill Yeah I saw that , what was that one with the three leaves and that Yeah , they were root bound, those three All you have to spend is the money They went to Merrivale today, she and Chadam, I knew they both had today off, she said it was gorgeous there Mm but as you say I, I can never have a real conversation with her like I can natter No into anything I do Yeah If you could hear what she say it'd make a difference I expect I'd of gone for another vowel there, it you'd gone for E it of been Got three Yeah, but you have an E you would of been much better off wouldn't you? oh no, that's right or an I would of helped coach Coach that's only five, paunch J A Z if we got another Z, can only have the one, J A R Dozed can't you have dozed? Yeah So if I do some potatoes Yes, thank you mm, yeah I just put them up if you bring up the erm thingamy Do you want the pressure cooker up? No No Erm in there So I switch it on, or er Yes Yes have er just erm What do you want? have the lid of the saucepan here, here we are This Busy Lizzy is really coming on isn't it? Yes, mm, you re-potting it did it some good Yeah cos it's now spreading out Yes it is isn't it? Be awful for erm, you know an ex wife and son, to take the decision to phone in they Yeah they're very brave Can dry them off on that I wonder if we've got enough forensic evidence, you know, to erm Well I should think there's probably a whole lot more there that we didn't move Oh, I would of thought so Hello, what time does erm Gavin go off? Er not till half past one in the afternoon Oh so it's erm the times have all changed now because of going somewhere different, but of course you've gotta go out tonight, we've got to, in fact we've got to go out within the hour, it's Steve's mum's birthday erm so tomorrow you know you can't get think and my brother turned up last night so you just can't, I haven't even packed his case yet. Where have you got to take him to school? Yeah, up to right up to the school Yeah got nice er double decker bus type thing with a video player on and all that, mind you it should do really cos they're on there for a long time Yeah see till Sunday night they're on that bus apart from the crossing And they don't get there until Sunday ni , no I suppose they won't will they? No Cos by then, they won't get to, they won't go to the crossing until about eight I suppose in the evening, it'll be a night crossing won't it? Yeah, that's right, he's getting excited about it I should think so too Yeah I didn't put the other one in Oh Chris has got to go out tonight Has she? it's erm Steve's mother's birthday and Gavin's, they've got to get him up about midday, one o'clock or something up the school tomorrow she said I haven't even packed yet. She said he's now beginning to get excited Oh but they don't arrive there until erm Sunday night, so it's a long time on the coach Yes, I just wondered if they couldn't sort of do a, a deal, you know to get them by air, the only thing about it is if they got to sort of probably where they would go for erm still gonna take them a couple of hours Mm, that's right and they've got all the hassle of the airport, mind you they ought to be able to get a local airport I don't know who they're going, going with, who the erm Gavin said, I think Gavin said or somebody said something the, the original company have gone bankrupt Oh is that right yeah? so yeah that might be why they had to erm Did you put out those erm no I haven't put anything out You just, you know speaking to Chris then? Yeah, she was just sort of coming down the stairs yeah it's alright, you know, had a word with her Do you know that This is, you know you just can't begin to believe it can you? You know Shaun, Moyra's husband? Yes Well his sister's erm a social worker as well in Manchester and she was going next week to spend a year in Romania Is she really? and that, that's why their er you know, Shaun, erm, Amelda brought erm Moyra down with the babies, you know she was up there and she could help her down, but Shaun is coming down now wi , this weekend in the car and of course they'll be able to go back in the car, erm there's, there's gonna be a party for erm, of course should warn the girl Of course that's the awful thing about it isn't it? took about four of them to do it normally, Paul Mm his new wife and also Melanie, ha you know what it says on the top there No, I'm it says or something That's filled you up has it? That's very nice, yes, yes Do you want a bit of ice cream or? Yeah, have ice cream, have that lovely one we had the other day Sometimes you know when you see these programmes like The Bill yeah always getting themselves That's very nice, yeah The strawberry can be a bit, you know, can really be could be like thaw Thaw a little bit, right When I went for the paper this morning there was this dog, two dogs actually, but one Jessie cos he or she had got about a six foot long tree trunk in its mouth. I said to its owner oh I said another one as daft as ours , she said yes Oh thanks very much, right I'll just go and get the paper Go and get the paper then okay Yep okay I don't know where, I thought I left my case here, I don't know what I've done with my case that's all, it's probably downstairs oh oh I don't know, mm still not able to find it I think I'd better put these plants out mm that's right, oh, mm that's not there right, I'd better switch this, the tape off cos there's not much, be much conversation now for a while Good morning Not too bad Not quite so cold this morning is it? I shall no that's right . Hello How are you? Very well and you? Fine How's Alistair? Got the monster Pardon? Got the monster Oh you've got the monster Two monsters, Alistair's fine Is he? How's, how's Margaret? Oh well she's up and down you know Yes I mean sometimes she's better Cos weren't you going on holiday when I last saw you? Yeah that's right we went erm You were in a dash Yes that's right we went to erm in the French Pyrenees Oh lovely and er it wasn't bad, the snow wasn't very good to start with but it snowed on the Thursday and then we, you know, we skied quite a bit after that, but poor girl she got sciatica on the Wednesday Oh that's painful and erm for a week she really hardly left the hotel Oh She came out with us for two or three days and sort of sat you know up a bit and saw us, but then the next week she was really no good at all Yes, oh dear so that was a shame, but er it got better slowly you know And are you on your own or, or dog with you? Yeah I'm dogless, I just walked Oh I just walked to get the erm, the pi , to walk to get the paper Oh yes it gives me erm, a bit of exercise Yes I was looking around for your dog I don't get very much now , no, and how do you like your guard dog? Very well, he's great he really is, isn't he? He's fluffy and squeaks Yes he's dreadful, I think he's slightly frightened of our spaniel Is he really? say he squeaks He's at all the time Hello Max come here, come here, come here Like I was just saying if we were going to a there's a big bus somewhere near I'd drop him and then it would run him over cos he, he goes on and on Oh dear it's just like a squeaky jaw It's really annoying, he's not like that at home it's just that Pip I think Pip intimidates him Pip gives him dirty looks sort I think How old is he? Two Two so he's only little really Oh, my goodness he needs some exercise doesn't he? Oh yeah And he's, he's, the dog Oh he's obedient isn't he? Self erm Come here, come here Who's a good boy? no, there, sorry No he wants to run thanks very much oh yes keep you fit Mm, oh yes I tell you who I would see and asked after Alistair yesterday and that was Bill Oh yes He came to see us Oh how is he? Er, he seems very well Yes very busy and Yes still working on his new house and, what they've got in, you know Wokham area Yes and doing a lot of work, but he was erm, he was asking said do you ever hear of Alistair, I said yes, he said oh well give him, remember me to him I'll do that Yes, yes, yes cos erm, he's a nice chap isn't it? He was a nice chap yes, oh he was very good, yeah and did you know Ken no perhaps you didn't know Ken , he was I don't know the name no No he was, he was right at the very beginning of the school Yes er and he was one of the kingpins building the swimming pool Oh yes which has now been filled in Oh yes of course erm yeah but er, he died about two, three Oh weeks ago and his poor wife was absolutely devastated Just complete Oh he'd been ill for about six months I think, but erm Yes, yes only sixty two Oh dear but you know, but er yeah, you know it sort of goes on doesn't it? Anyway nice to see you You know I cheery mood at the moment isn't he? Yeah Oh he's in a cheery mood Oh that's good isn't it? I think he's settled into school Oh that's great, yes that's great isn't it? Mm and I just, he kept, you know how teachers go so I said, I said, when you meet anybody and they say to him how's teaching him he says I say stop it you're really actually enjoying it, so I say don't do it I think it's a bit better isn't it? I think you get into a habit of some people We've had erm , he may see at some stage, he might just see my son Christopher Really? Yes, a fortnight ago he was appointed chief art advisor for Devon That's very good isn't it? so erm he's moving, he's moving down in April Oh you must be thrilled We are pleased yes, cos they're a lovely family Yes and they're gonna be, they'll be sort of down in this area you know Yes otherwise you don't see them for probably the Exeter area , well we go up and stay with them up in you know Yes in Cheshire, but er yeah It's not the same as really taking part it's a long way is it? isn't it? Oh yes, oh that's lovely So er, yes, he's, he's, he's About to get a good job a little bit frightened I think, you know Mm, mm well I, apprehensive is the word really, but he, I think he came down the other, this week just for a day and spent back here and saw one or two people and I think he's happier now Mike, he's beginning to get some ideas as to what Mike you know what he'll be able to do and to what contribution he'll be able to make Yes so erm, yeah Are quite good authorities to work for or, I mean no cash I suppose, but erm got some money I mean I, well, I mean you know, I suppose it is, erm Does it have er, where some authorities have a Tell Alistair because erm, he'll enjoy the joke because, Emelda came down to us you see, she arrived at lunch time, out of the blue to us Yes and said that Christopher was on interview and er if he got through the first part to the second part he would in the afternoon he would give us a ph a ring, erm but he, by ten to two he hadn't phoned so she assumed he was on his way back having Yes not got the second part, anyway, he phoned up about ten to two and said, but, but before that she had said that he had met Mark Mm do you know the name? Yes So erm, I said to Emelda, oh dear I said if Mark puts two and two together I said there's no way he's going to get the job I said because Mark and I, well just, you know yeah, you see, so we were laughing about this, anyway, Christopher phoned up and said he got through to the second part, he was the only one that was going through to the second part and he phoned up about forty five minutes later to say that he'd erm, he'd got the job How lovely and er, then he said I believe you know Mark , so I said yes, so he said well he's standing here at my side, he'd like a word with you,so Mark came onto the phone Mm, mm then and said he said, I, I he said the penny only dropped afterwards, he said Er fortunately and I suddenly, I suddenly thought I said your father isn't Terry by any chance? So Christopher said yes, so he said well he said, he said Mark said well we've done a good job this afternoon so I thought that was nice of him Yes, yes, didn't say cancel everything That's what I that's what so tell Alistair cos Alistair will, will remember the fights that we Yes, so had with Mark so, yeah but he's, he's the chief advisor for the whole of Devon is Mark still, but anyway, yeah, so Oh they're aren't they? They are, bye Give my love to Margaret I will, bye Hello, alright? Yes What's this, last, last minute filling up your tuck bag for the No get the paper great journey Packed You are packed? Yeah Gavin wasn't packed last night I was, I was a bit excited so I started mine last night Oh, so you're getting excited? Yeah, very I bet, what time do you go on the ferry? Erm half past one, no we leave on the coach at half past one You leave on the coach at half past one and wh , in the evening we get on the ferry This evening? Yeah Yeah, and then a night ride across France Yeah and then we stop off in, then we, while we're on the coach we stop off in Germany for breakfast Oh yes, yes, I trust you've got your Deutchmarks Yeah Five, that's about right, fine thanks Alex Bye Bye Hello, thank you, ah I wish I was going with him Where? Alex Where's he off to? Pitsfield can do with a bit of skiing Yeah Saw Mima Oh did you? Yeah she was just coming out the car by the er you know in the car park by Decor Lake Yeah with erm, with the daughter, what's her name? Yeah erm the one with the dog Yeah er she's just bought obviously she had her dog there and her two dogs and er, so it was nice, had a little natter Ah Said how's Alistair? She said very happy really she said, he's really has settled in and you know sort of and that was nice wasn't it? Oh that's good yeah Yeah the dog's a black sort of long legged labrador Oh is it? Yeah, taller than, a lot taller than Jessie Yeah and my goodness me it's got some bounce in it, two years old, yeah and then of course in the paper shop who's waiting for a paper but Alex, so I said oh I said you all packed? He said yes, he said he's getting excited too, but do you know isn't that strange he, he came to get a paper you see for the family Yeah now that family, you know, the Mirror, you know it, it, it that sort of thing Yeah surprises you astounds me Yeah it really does So what's the latest on the cricket have you heard any more? No I didn't actually, cos the news was you know coming on and I thought I don't know whether there'd be any on there Well it'd be on Ceefax I'd expect Yes, let's see if they're talking about it on this erm Just what did you say? work up cricket live and exclusive on Sky It's on three, the, the commentary on three Yeah radio Radio Three Yeah but the pictures and that they are on Sky Television Yeah, that's right, nine wickets fifty overs, two, three, five Two, three, five Well I suppose that's not bad, it's over four, it's four and a half Against them four and a half or an over Yeah, you need to make up ninety one Oh he didn't get the hundred No They were saying the last time I heard them saying anything he was sort of going Defreites was run out look for one Oh gosh obviously hitting out you see, they were just Yeah trying to sort of score the runs and that was it trying to get two hundred and fifty I reckon Oh well that's not bad I suppose Well should be all fit erm Botham does his business I suppose it'll be with, who he bowl with? Well there's Lewis and Pringle and Reeve and Defreites and Tuftnot, I mean they're all bowlers Is Tuffnel, oh Tuf , Tuffnel is a slow bowler isn't he? Yeah Does Reeve bowl? I think so yeah Lewis does of course and Pringle does That's right, and Hick can you see if need be and Botham can I mean let, it's a good all round side really Yeah Oh well right well I've got some porridge on I'm gonna have that now, we can go out I should think Alex has become a sort of completely different boy, of when you think how, of when he first had him over there, you see he's accumulated erm confidence Mm didn't he? Mind you it seemed that they had a test at school last week and he wasn't terribly happy with it, he said he couldn't understand it, he tried to explain to me what it was, but erm, it's not, not easy, but Ga Gavin said erm, he said they'd had a test and he said it took him time to get into it but once he got into it, you know, he did alright in it, I think he said how many he got, he didn't seem to do too badly, but he said Alex didn't really do anything and what he did do he thought was wrong so he didn't hand it in, he said and in actual fact what he had done was right, so I don't know, I told, I told Alex to go and see, you know, and ask about it and sort of erm, apparently he did do that so at least he'll know, but erm, it's strange really because normally Alex So much better copes very well, you know And yet that other time, you know, when he came to you That's right, yes and, and Gavin of course, yeah because he couldn't do it and that Gavin had done it yeah it's amazing innit, yeah that's right, yeah, mm , yes Gavin really has, yes he's one that's come on tremendously Well I think that you know, this, this that the ground they're obviously looking at Yes, and also the car and the railway being close at hand Yeah Gosh didn't know, I hadn't heard that What's that? One of Stephanie close colleagues has been under gun guard, police guard for a week following death threats on the alleged kidnapper, as the net closed on him he phoned estate agent Jane the girl who helped prepare the second artist impression, Jane had met him face to face when he called at the office in Great Bar Birmingham days before the kidnap to collect details on several houses for sale, her blood ran cold when she picked up the phone on Wednesday February the twelfth to hear his voice again Gosh he told her that even if he was caught he had now enough money to get her, police monitoring calls to the Shipway's office traced the call within seconds to a phone box at the service station on the A one at Groinby near Gran Grantham Lan , Lincolnshire, police cars arrived at the call box only minutes after the kidnapper had left Gosh part of the telephone box used to make the threats was dismantled and taken away for forensic examinations Oh dear Mm, seen this job share police girl to boost Yeah oh yes on crime reminds me that Bob told me only he doesn't, he doesn't know how much Bridget knows, so we mustn't say anything to her, but he said that there is some possibility that she may get erm, I think April time she may be made what's called Court Officer Oh in which case she'll be a nine to five on her sort of on a Monday to Friday basis but Yeah she'll be sort of liaise between the police, the court and the erm prosecuting service They should know everything there was there to know and do you know she'd be good at that I think Yes so there's a possibility of that apparently Yeah, oh well we I knew that you were talking to him about something Forgotten all about that just sort of it triggers and I thought you know to myself well, well all secret triggered the mind things I wasn't supposed to know No, no it wasn't that at all it was just that it completely,complete completely went from my mind Well that would be good of course that's better really, and we surely don't want to lose them do we? Yeah Gosh a record seven hundred thousand Brits are expected to head for the slopes this winter with the snow the best in Europe for twenty years Mm, well I suppose when could we fit it in Be nice to go back to it wouldn't it? Yeah, still we can't have three holidays in a year can we? Why not? Sorry? Why not? Can't afford it Well how's the time, half past nine, do you want to go Tesco before you go to erm Yes church? I'd better go and get changed Oh dear, I don't know who writes this, erm bit of the er you know erm oh it must be the sellatory yes, mm, mm, he's writing about erm, erm did you in every long time see, see such an impression of dodgy back acting, poor old William Roche who plays Ken Barlow in Coronation Street has been moaning and groaning and wincing and rising in the most frightful and indeed the most convincing of manners, he has even for the match of the those few to Coronation Street do not know all the facts of course, we are ignorant of the finer points of the time gone by, but why is Deirdre so lasted to Ken I've yet to catch up with Wednesday night's proceedings on my video contraption , but the last thing that I heard Deirdre say to Ken as he was recovering on a put-u-up in her front room was, I'm stuck with you till you back on your feet and as far as I'm concerned it can't come soon enough for me, Ken lay there immobile, stunned, a cruel carry on, what's the poor chap done, but then I've missed too much Oh dear Yeah, that's right But erm, I suppose it's difficult really because the sun's not out it feels that much colder yeah, well they said it would feel cold today It's only because the sun's not out I'm Mm quite sure Yes and in actual fact it's warmer than it was yesterday Yeah I think over there. I thought he was looking at the station as if , to see if a train was in or something Yes I'm not sure he's gone on the double yellow lines, but still I don't know what to do about this milk if it's still two lots, have we nearly finished the one we're on? Yes I suppose I could get two, yes Well I mean this has been alright hasn't it? Yes, yes I mean what we're having now is alright erm see erm Texas has sort of thirty, forty and fifty percent off some items Is that so? as a last sort of erm two days of the sale or something, they have their special offer next week or fifty percent off everything or something I feel sorry for these places really, that do you know it's funny I only saw the car immediately in front of this grey one in there must of been a dip there because there's two cars in front of me That's it there are but I only saw the white one in front of this grey one But there are three No two in front of the white Oh two, I see, yeah one, I could see the white one but I couldn't see the erm Well I don't know whether there's anywhere here I think there is, somebody's going in there, are they? Yeah You get out, I'll just straighten out when you've gone I'm sure there are people who don't sort of bother with them at all, you know just saw er a man he dropped he's erm, he dropped his till receipt and he looked as if he had a tremendous amount you know in his basket so I reckon it would of been over, but there was no erm cos you get it stamped yes so we have er, yes I'd forgotten about those little erm chickens of course , so we can have that roast Yeah There's Linda, have those for me, oh she's coming One ninety two point three Yes, you might wonder Cor there must be some reason for it of course, perhaps they're not, not erm picking up or yes I could easily of bought erm a couple bottles of wine to make that Mm, mm yeah up to twenty Mm Didn't have my little er calculator cos I haven't taken it out, but you know, I didn't think any more about it now we're going to church right away? Yeah I think so I mean it's We're alright, there's nothing there that erm, needs to go into the fridge I think I mean it's coming up to twenty past Oh yes, yes, I I know that, I all I was wondering was Yeah whether we needed to go back for anything to go in the fridge or freezer If I got this page sort of full by the end of the week, people there were picking out their, they were getting tea bags and coffee and biscuits, you know for two pages full, I've got one page full and of course with that I could get erm, packet of the Ferrera Roche Oh I've come in the wrong way Wasn't you, were you going up that way you reckon going up that way? No I'll go up the next one Oh I wasn't, I was going to go right, I was just not thinking you know, sort of Oh this place is all Oh I'll get before this thing comes, oh he's pulling in for you Yeah, he's not pulling in for me, he's pulling in for himself I think actually. Well he's pulling in, full stop and if he can see where he's going, well good on him lad, it's okay left Mind you I could park it down the road couldn't I? Oh yes , there's room Well still going Bend right, be already to go out Yep Got a light on here, now, look, that light Up there? No it's always been there Oh has it? Mm Well I'm not going out to buy any now I'm gonna wait till next week so we'll just have to Yeah that's alright. have milk. You've Alright. got some There is some in the, in the packet isn't there? Where? Well I mean I, I didn't empty the last packet. Well There was still some left in. Well it's not here! Well I haven't thrown a packet away. Well unle , unless you come up here and see if you can find it. I mean if I'd have if I'd have, if I had come to the last one I mean if if you'd told you that dad was coming down which Well I'm sorry love! I've be Well that's alright. It's not fair. I can't see anything there. Well I can't but I mean I I certainly didn't erm haven't thrown one out that's what I mean, you know? Well I suppose it must of been me but I have no idea when or why or where because I generally cut the erm side bits off. Well I know you do so that's why I would never have thrown it out. Yeah, well I don't know. Anyway, there's none there . No, doesn't look as though there is does it? Oh! If I'd have known I would have brought that this morning Okay! twenty pound ! No I'm, no I'm not blaming you! I'm just saying I would have Oh yeah! done it! Yeah, that's right. You would of done. They're not doing bad are they? Well no! Doing very well. I thought there is but I mean before . Yep! Yep! or kind of oven in nine, I can only think of Oakhouse as a kind of oven but erm I don't know whether that's it or not. If it is the Hindu Sage begins with an O. Oh! And I don't really I can't think of one. Who? One trying to get in one side and the other one I think that's what it was wasn't it? Yeah. Well wha what did you want say ? Just wanted to speak to you about the skis that was all. Oh well. Well . He'll be wanting to go down there. Oh yeah. Were you thinking of going skiing er before then? Well shouldn't think so! Well I suppose you could go off. If you hadn't of pulled my jacket I would of known that you Right. wanted Did you see this erm, Bill then? With somebody with fingers chopped off? Yeah ! The fingers en route and for the purpose of being chilled were placed in a packet of ice lollies! That's right! It Oh God ! They, they had to get ice you see Yeah . to put these things in ice and they hadn't got any of the, of the When the unpleasant severed object finally arrived at the hospital a nurse said brightly, normally one would , fingers crossed! That's right! Th th the final the final sort of sick joke was the fact that erm having having disposed of the fingers to the theatre, the hospital they'd got this box of ice lollies so they proceeded then to give them to people! Handed them out at the Police Station! Have a ice lolly ! Yeah, that was very funny! Can you see on the floor there to the left of the picnic table. Yellowish you mean? Or on No on the floor. Yeah. Oh I don't know what that is. It may be an apple core. Maybe an apple cos I put some apples down there cos the black Oh could well be. the blackbirds like those apples. Anyway the erm squirrel came and investigated. Oh! Cos you see Got it into its hand Oh yeah you see it's probably an apple bit. But then he decided he'd go and look for something else. This way this morning . Well I always do come this way! It's nice. Yeah. I mean we can go down to the, drive out by the lakes. Well we do! We turn right here Oh turn right, of course yes! Oh dear dear dear dear! I was thinking !! It's really quite a hill up there isn't it Yes! ? Yes! You sort of quite a nice spot for houses really just up the top there. You must get quite a nice With a lovely view! little view, yeah. If you'd gone that way . Well I mean that's, that's certainly true of Doreen's isn't it? Yeah. That's right. I mean she said it. I think she said that there are no erm No buses are there not? buses up there. Are there not? Oh! I think yeah Mm. I you know I'm Mm. not absolutely sure. .We'll do ev , we'll be counting tomorrow so you can see Father See Father then, that's right. Yes. Yes. He's only just gone that feller. Next to me Only just gone? yeah! Still sleeping was he? Ya, I think so. He's so used probably to a left hand filter going Yeah, I suppose it was! You see? Yes! And the filter didn't but you tha tha tha No, but doesn't it always go? I always they're you know. Well no it doesn't, if there's nothing , if there's nothing coming round from the other way it doesn't go. There he is there. Is it? No that's not him no. Oh. Oh. But, in fa , I was just gonna say to you well the filter didn't go. No, well it's the filter goes when there's traffic coming across from the other side. Just remember to take a few tins of things. I was going to do it this morning and bring and for the box that they have the old prayer I think going up to Yugoslavia soon Oh yes! for foods and things Yes. like that. And I meant you know, to bring some, I meant to put them out last night. I'd been thinking of you know things that that I had that can go. Oh yes, there are children there. park on the grass when you don't have to. Yeah. It seems to me that it doesn't put a lot of weight on the grass. be the best thing. Good morning! If you're not in a hurry! I've got a query as well. I'm down to read on Ash Wednesday Yes. with Grace but, I'm also down to read at St.Joseph's and Father tells me there won't be two masses on Ash Wednesday. We don't usually have a mass here on Ash Wednesday. You don't do you? No. No. So I should forget about it. Alright. Yeah. Only Grace is not here so I can't see her today. No, no. Well we never have one on Ash Wednesday. You don't have one do you? Nope! No, so I think that's probably a mistake and that so I can, I can go ahead and take the St. Joseph's Yes. one without any worry? Yes thank you. Hello ! Fine thank you. I'm thick, I'm thicker than Henry's dad's . No erm no what's his name? Sid? What? Said they don't have a mass on Ash Wednesday there. So he said I should forget it. Brian said that? Brian, yeah. Brian Right. Is it that? Yes that's yes that's right. Oh is she going or not? Oh no they're picking up somebody else there. There, I said they Nice little family in front of us wasn't it? Yes. This one here, this family here I saw her come in first of all you see I wi with the legs! Oh yes! And the bottom that sort of was really Well quite as tha er revealing! as they would say in the army she had legs that went all the way up to her bottom! Morning! Good morning! Nice and mild isn't it? Isn't it nice? Come in. You don't need to ring the bell. Oh right. Yeah, sure? Terrible! Yeah, don't worry about that! You sure? Alright, let me get them. Here you are, twenty Silk Cut What's that? That's mix. But it's got . Laura! Mummy! Can't be very big. No it's alright . Well Savory white that all she had. Yeah. What bread sauce? Yeah. You want those? Twenty Silk Cut that's what you got. Yeah, well that's right I got them. Hopefully Mick . Alright, then we'll get the till open on that . Five forty you say? Forty thirty each other. Have they? No. Two fifty two seventy that's five, six. Thank you very much madam. Have a nice day! I shall! Well er thank you Thank you. very much. Sixty Fifty five was it? Fifty five, yep! Er thirty there er there you go. Thank you. Thank you very much. Try putting that door open Good morning to you sir! How are you? Alright. I mean, I say! The one with the handbags all different colours? Hello! How are you? Very well. And you? Does it bring it back mem memories for the last ten years? I know! Doesn't it just! Yes. So it won't be long ? No. No. Morning. Good morning to you! Oh! But Doris has just said doesn't that bring back memories? She was only getting her paper was she? Yeah. There was a whole lot of paper getting there, getting papers and someone else but the lady in red actually was getting groceries as well so of course that takes time. I opened er the queue builds up. Oh yes, that lady? This one here? Is she the one that read ? That's right, yeah. Oh, that's where they live, there! Oh at least they're stopping there. Oh yeah, one of the two. Cos it also brings back memories for me of er Mayday celebrations . Yeah. It's nothing like that I don't know I I'd I'm not sure! I'm not sure that it doesn't still go on actually. Oh! I don't know what form it takes mind you but the Of course, another thing about those new houses those new hous , I think the ma new road will go just up over here . The new Kings Kerswell bypass I think cuts through up, just above. So what! Well i It'll be away from the houses Well I suppose it is a bit away, yeah. They probably run a road so that anybody can get onto it. Make a road from that little sort of estate there and nobody get onto it. It's . I wish she would say it. If we ever got confront her wi with Christopher when she was about. She said, well why do they want to live in Exeter particularly? I said well I'm su swear I couldn't leave it. Look after the children. So erm she said oh what do you think? Ever so much more expensive living there. Oh! That's what she said! She said they'd be much better to look for a house in this area but Yeah. I don't know, it's Well they make I would never ever say though. No ah, no you ,yo we can't! No. No. No. As you know you may find that out in a course of Yeah. erm looking around. I said she'd just see telling them as well you know bu i it be better it's it's away fro , away from Newton Abbot . It does i er, in fact, that really doesn't even enter my mind. Does it yours? Not really, no. Well I mean I erm I mean they've been so awa Awa away away all this time Wherever they are going then it doesn't make any difference really to us you see. Wherever they come will be sort of near but we'd still would never ever go and That's right. like, we'd never go and sort of erm disturb Richard and Chad do we? And we never go up there unless it's . No, I I mind you, I don't know whether we ought to perhaps. I don I it's, it's very difficult, you know? They may feel that we don't and they or i I don't know, it's erm Well we sat here with both Richard and Chad . You see they had mm, er Friday off now they went off to Merryvale , which is fine! I mean, I've no no er Oh no. beef about that but because it was such a lovely day Mm. you know the we you would think, oh well perhaps they'd say to you or would Yeah. you know, do you wanna come out that way? This is where the roundabout's gonna Yeah. go, here. That's what I thought, yeah. Yes. Or, you know something like that but you see they what they keep thinking is that erm you know, they don't to be together you know, on their own and this is the way I think they think. Yeah. Which is really quite right but then, I mean, you can't sort of just love needs to be sort of spread out a bit doesn't it? But, you know when I say it I'm not Ken and and Eva are the same, they don't go up there Mm. you know willy-nilly And I think Jack and Toni goes in there once a week. Does she? Yeah. I think so. You know Yeah. erm or at least she used to when she was in the hospital. She'd go in and sort of erm help her mum have a bath. Christmas th they did, get windows on the side,to big windows she and that was that which is probably as well we . Er, often . Except the front ones. Do you want a coffee? Er Do you want a coffee? No, I don't want one just now, I may have one later, not just now cos I'll just have mineral water again. Just water this time not erm . Erm . Is it is it boiled? Mm mm. I get used to it. Oh you've got your . I might go for something. Here are. Is that the news coming on now? Well Woh What? That's right. Is the news coming on now? No,tha , yeah it will be. cos it grows like that. Yeah. What's she been putting them in for ? Well I think they're trying to pin the murder on him. I think that i i i I don't, I'd I I reckon they've got him on the kidnapping charge. It sounds to me with me being they got him the first the the their victims . Oh is that so? Well somewhere. Mm. I think you like playing with that! you know. What? You'll have to him . Trouble is, when it's raining you know, when it's wet, you need to do it every day almost don't you really? Yeah. Cos that's the only trouble is with black it never looks er ca you know unless it's shining it don't look nice does it? No. Yeah. You alright? Yeah. Yeah. What time is Lucy coming to you by the way Terry? What time is? Tomorrow Lucy coming in tomorrow? Do you just have it at the same time? I don't mind. Whatever! Erm Joanna's coming in I think at erm her usual time. She is? But erm I mean, you know, she come in oh I can't have her in the morning anyway cos we're we're counting in the morning. Yeah. So we shall be out er, you know early in the Oh well morning. the same time. Erm And if she wants to go off she can er go and make or can't she? Yeah. Or unless you want her a bit what ti , Joanne Joanne comes in at quarter past six does she? Yeah. I mean she can come in at two if she likes but erm bu if she's gonna be out, I mean she can come in at quarter past five. Well if she's home if she's home I'll get her to pop in at two, if she's not home I'll get her to come in at quarter past five. Okay. Okay? Yeah. Erm now that's th that's the half term week isn't it? Now the following week Victoria's away Yeah cos she's away all, she goes tonight. That's right. But everyone else is in but I want to clear Wednesday and Thursday cos I want we want to go up to Suffolk. Oh that's alright. Erm Yeah. Midday Is that this week? midday Wednesday, so that Yeah, well the it probably means It's their English innit? It don't matter about Gavin and Lucy not The English will have to be back a week I think. Yeah. And it don't matter about Gavin and Lucy not coming in Wednesday night, don't worry. Don't worry. No, we'll put the English back a week Yeah. erm I think and what I'll try and do, I'll try and bring erm, I've got two on the Thursday and I'll try and bring them forward to the Monday, cos Monday's a baker's day isn't it? Yes it is actually. Yeah. Yeah, they don't go back till Tuesday do they? You see, so I could erm Yeah, that's right, bring them forward to Monday. I could change the times on Monday a bit. Yeah. Yeah, course you could. Yeah, no problem! So erm but I Yeah. think i , we'll we'll we'll put the English back a week Yeah, that's no problem! and erm give Gavin and Lucy a miss on that Wednesday. Yeah. That's fine! Because there's a special offer erm on erm there's a, there's a Forte Hotel in Woodbridge in Suffolk which is a nice hotel and they've got a special offer for erm five nights for the price of three! Ho That's very good! And that's erm Two nights free bed then! full English breakfast and, and an evening meal! Erm so it's worth doing that we I, cos I was gonna go I was gonna go Thursday and just come back on the Monday but as it is now we'll go Wednesday and have Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday night, so we'll come back on the Monday. Erm then, you know we should be back without any problem by er quarter past four. If we're not Yeah. I would give you a ring but erm Yeah, don't worry! Don't worry. And it'll give us a chance to go and see my aged aunt. Mm. We haven't seen her for about ten, twelve years and er Yeah. she's the last one of the family that's really still alive and she's well into her eighties and erm Yes. I, you know I, I just loathe the thought of leaving it and leaving it until the next thing is you're going up for her funeral you know? Yeah well , that's right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think her husband will probably die before she will but erm he cos he's older than she is even, but erm and he's not very well, hasn't been for a long time. Mm. So we'll go up there. And there's other friends up there we haven't seen so And it's a break innit? Dozen dozen years or so. We haven't been up there since seventy eight you see when my mother moved down here! Yeah. That's the last time we've been to Suffolk. Yeah. And it's So erm a break as well. Innit? It's a long time. We were gonna go this we , coming weekend actually erm an , because that would have been easier to put everybo , move everybody this week but are coming, is coming next weekend ! Ah! And Yeah. And so erm we didn't wanna put them off and I like to be here because erm Bob likes to go on the Moor as well, so we shall go out on the Moor with the dog a couple of times Yeah. you know. Yeah. And that'll be nice! So erm Yeah. Oh that's alright then love! Alright? Yep! That's okay. Well anyway, Lucy tomorrow two o'clock if she's out, she'll come in quarter past five and then erm that's it until the Monday after. No! They're coming in on the Wednesday aren't they? Oh no that's right! Lucy will come in on the Wednesday. Lucy will come in on the Wednesday. Yeah! Lucy will come in on the Yeah. Wednesday. Course she will! Erm And then the Monday after, and then then it's the Monday after that. Yeah, it's okay. Alright? Yep! I've got it. I've got it . And I'm, and the following Monday. Yes. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Right let's go! Okay. They reckon the driver of that car fell asleep! Gosh! Because apparently there was no brake marks on the road at all! Just swerved off into the erm Probably hard shoulder. safely. Yo mean you know cos of Yeah that's right. Been a nasty accident happening to us. Shall I ring them up? No. He needs buttering up. See it doesn't give addresses for the hotel. It's, oh yeah call now on that's what you'll have to ri ing, the central or see your agent. Perhaps see Tony tomorrow cos presumably you get a bit of commission. Well could do that couldn't I? Especially as I went in and he gave me those brochures. Mm. I Think I'd better put the car in the garage cos I think Steve looks as if he's gonna be cleaning erm Gavin's go-cart. Morning Steve! Alright? Yep! It's mild today innit? Isn't it mild? Incredible! I mean it's just it's just a different life isn't it? Turn the heating up one night thinking it's gonna be cold in the morning,ha I know. and it's er boiling hot. Oh I see, so you're making a the most of his absence are you? That's right, yeah. Thought I'd get it cleaned up now cos he won't be needing it. Till we start racing again. When d'you start racing again? March the eighth. March the, oh! . Oh! Yeah, it's not a bad way to start. Yeah! I suppose he'll be sort of Yeah I should think so. on his way to Germany now I Yeah. suppose? I think so, yeah. They were gonna breakfast in Germany so, I don't know whether they stop overnight or what, I No they don't, they travel. Do they? Yep! No,th er er I mean he would of you see it's about erm well it's two hundred miles to border from Calais Oh. to erm where is it? Near Arken where they cross the border that's about two hundred miles and then, you know, by the time they've gone through er er, they'll sort of be well down into erm sort of Stuttgart way I think that sort of area probably. Mm. And there's service stations on the motorway you see where you can stop for breakfast. Mm mm. And then erm they'll have a couple of hours or an hour break there probably and then erm Yeah. they'll journey on to ge er erm where's he going,Kittsbeile ? So gi , they'll probably go down to Munich and then drop down on the motorway from Munich Mhm. erm the corsair there, the motorway goes through ah, what's the name of the place? Wurley I think it is Mhm. Ergel Er, no something like that anyway. Erm, and then it's not far from there from Ki to Kittsbeil you know, sort Mm. off the track. So erm Mm. Oh . Either that or they go through to Salzburg and then come off the motorway there. I don't know which, well you know i , when it's that sort of area it's , as you say I mean it's from here it's nine hundred, at least nine hundred miles you know it's about two hundred and fifty to Dover isn't it? Aha. And then you've got about you know, you got six hundred and, six to seven hundred miles the other side. Well that camper can cope with it. I know. You know I I sometimes wonder when you go by plane and you get all the the hooha at the airport and you, you get fog delay and delay, get delayed here and delayed there think why on earth you bother you go by train! Go by plane! But when you go by coach you you realise why you go by plane, you know! That's right. Cos we went to Winterlarken the year before last, was it the year before last? No! I don't know when we went on the coach to Mannock Farm Camp Site erm you know, and it's a long old haul! Yeah. Yeah. Yo you know sleep in the, you sort of have a night's sleeping in the coach while it's travelling but Yeah but it's , it's never the same you see. It isn't until ah th , the only time we did have a smashing journey, we went with erm oh what's, what's the name of a local firm from Plymouth? No. No. Traffens We went with Traffens one year, the first year in fact we went with Traffens and that was super because when we got to the other side sort of, it was then about ten o'clock he said well if you if there's enough people want it we will transform your transform your seats into bunks and most people wanted and you were able to push the seats so one, two pairs of seats one of the seats went up and the other went down and you had four bunks My God! flat across two seats two pairs of seats. And you, you know, you used, you used anything as a pillow that you'd got Aha. erm and you were flat. And I had a se , you know, I mean you you were aware that you were in a coach and you'd you'd wake up occasionally and realise you we , but by enlarge I had eight hours sleep! Oh! And it was super! And the fact that you lie down you you yo , you spread the weight you see Yeah, that's right. it's not all on your bottom or on Yeah. the sle lower part of your back yo That's right, right. and you can turn over one way or you can turn over the other way. Mm. And it was really, it was very good! But they haven't done that, you know, the next time we went they hadn't got that sort of seating arrangement. I don't know why because that seems to me to be a first rate way of travelling, you know! lay down, yeah! I think it's super! Anyway i , d'you wanna use your hose I mean I'll put the car in the garage if you do. Yeah I'll think I'll start washing so I er Well I suppose I can leave mine out you might do mine as well! Cor! Yes, the morning before last, I mean it was so cold in the morning! There was such a heavy frost! Oh yeah! Yeah! No, this mild is very warm, you know. Very warm. Strange though. Bring the bulbs on. Bring the bulbs on . Mm I like that one up! Do you? Yeah. I expect to go higher really. It's just on, it's just using its ha hanging on the existing one. That isn't Felicity Kendal on the front there is it? Good gracious! She doesn't need a licence I know that. But I mean, you know yeah, during the war you got one for You did it yourself. Nobody was doing that then. You swapped your provisional licence automatically for a full licence. Well and get a couple of days like today these daffs will be out you know! Yeah. And now co , considering it's still February we've got quite a lot of blossom out in that garden. Absolutely! I was looking at it the other day and I was thinking all the bits that are out now. I mean those snowdrops are Still the holly even. Yeah. You know, with the erm That's it , the berries on. But those snowdrops are really standing up now! Yeah! And the crocuses are out. And this, these other things are out, whatever you call them! The primroses. And the daffs are just about to burst out. Hi Maggie! How you doing? Yes, another chip butty. Although, erm you know, I I can remember the time when I have not been a , quite enjoyed having bread and butter and chips. Yeah.. I see he's still on that go-cart! What? He's still working on the go-cart. Really! Yes, that's a good idea! I think I must have a drink, I've been thirsty as well. Poo I suppose they have to keep the go-carts you know Well it's I suppose it's better than it's an investment of course. First time it was to the did he say whether Gavin got off alright? Oh he got off alright? He'll still be on his way of course. Yeah. Well it's what, dinner times or evening time? Evening time. They were hoping to get their skis and parkers sorted out so that they could get off I think tomorrow but they only got five days skiing cos they leave again, either Sunday morning or Saturday night. That's the trouble with these damn you know they went and they tried for the erm flying business. You get the extra days skiing in. Yep! Oh it seems a long way to go just for five days skiing. When you go down to again get him to give you that one Rain water? Yeah. Yes I will do. Whereabouts have they gone?takes so long to get there so I mean . You could do actually cos I've had some in the bottom underneath. Oh, well this is Mhm. what I said! She'd have to put that in the compost. What's that? Well it's the fat. Oh put it down here I'll cut it up and give it to the birds. Okay. Well I always feed the birds. Yeah. Gave them a bit of chicken. Not cooked or anything. That won't matter. I'll only cut it up smaller that's how they like it. Anything with fat they eat. Oh! I'll be glad to sit down again! You've got the to do it and th I'll have to be ever so careful I'm we wearing a . And so kept on finding bits of the erm Angora wool sort of in the . Oh dear! Did you? I think there's only another one of these down there. Where's that? I shi , think I used it up. Yeah , I think you have used the o , one other. So if I see any more offers can't seem to find any. Found four erm Yep! Surprising to see children , they're going back so soon. Mm mm! Did you do the erm this? Mm? Yes. Quite a saga, you know all of this. So with my doo da it puts out sort of Tuesday. It's Tuesday, yeah. I've got this you know . It means that when the When the other side have got when the other have got one off. Again. That's two nil. That's it. But is he ? Yeah but the top two went through you see. Oh I see. You see? Oh yes! I must know how, I've been looking at at the . Well that's it! They've scored again! They've erm Have they finished? No, not yet. I could do with having someone to take this out. Right! Let's see and that could go to the compost. Is this the pairs? He's playing with er oh no it's not, it's not it's singles. Oh does he usually with the chair? Oh yeah . Well this is . He's now up five four. Ooh ooh ooh ooh ! Do you think you could just sweep that up Yeah. for me, to save me bending down there. Mm. Ooh ooh! He could now lose it! Hey? He could now lose it on the last ball ! Okay. He's missed it! He's only got two and he wanted three! Really! He, ha! So now it's, so he wants one and Bryant one for two. Ah! Gracious me! Bryant thought he'd lost it then! He should of done really it was are they both ? No, I think, oh I don't know he's an exiled Scot. Did he have a little cos he's in er oh no, of course he's wearing the blue of Scotland isn't he? Well of course they have to wear different colours anyway don't they? Mm. Nice that isn't it? Yeah. Short innit? , Andy Thompson innit? Yeah. Oh, medium length. So Well Thompson needs Bryant Thompson needs one and Bryant needs two. And that's Thompson. I'm going with David this Saturday. Worked hard hasn't he? To get back there. He has worked hard. He only needed two at the last end. Thompson needed three. Erm but he just had sort of he wasn't so good. Well that's a better ball! If he'd done that in the last erm, he'd have won it. And he's come back and sort of go round the back cos that other fellow sort of he came down Mm. and then he appeared up the top there. They come down to see what the situation really is. Please! Come on then! Oh it's gone further though this Yeah. Well presumably they si , they have to throw or they're supposed to throw, or have they not? Cos he just said that should of been enough. Oh, he's looking worried! Ooh ooh! Ee ee! Well that's much better than the other two isn't it? Yeah, I don't, yeah. Could be two. Yeah we've dropped two more. And he's got two more balls. Mm. Well, is that a problem? He's gonna try and knock So he's gotta again. Yeah. Oh it's going right through! He's trying to knock David out of course isn't he? Mm mm. And drop himself in. Yeah. Well I should think he's now got wo one red I should think. I suppose you could say David had it so often that it be nice for him to get it. I should think David will come out on the forehand and try and knock that blue ball out. The one that's He's only got one there. Mm. Yes I The re thought he only got one. Interesting to see which way he comes. I think he'll come round this way. Oh no he's not! He's coming round the back the other way. Ooh ooh! I th probably only red still. It's still his one. Still only got one. Yes. Well he's got three so this is the fourth one from this fellow isn't it? That's right! And Bryant has the last one? No. A chalk. So it just needs David to get through? He can do what he likes Yeah. with this last ball really. Well, yeah. This red one. If he gets another red he's won the match. But if he if he plays it and misses it he could give it to Thompson. And if he if he doesn't play it'll be a draw. Oh not just , not just one ball he needs to play Yes. but two. He needs two. Thompson didn't play his. It's all or nothing on this one! Oh dear! So has that fellow won it? No, it's one all. I it it's one red, so they're now six all. Oh gosh! It doesn't matter then. Bryant has now got to draw within four inches of the jack otherwise he's out. He's fired a shot and he's missed! So that's It's out. That's out, yeah it's Thompson. Right. Couldn't have been closer, mind you could it? Two all and six all. Fancy going to the supermarket like that? I'll put these on for erm I bet erm Bryant was sort of he wasn't feeling he's hard done by and i in fact he, you know went Yeah. He's always pleasant. They look rather nice don't they? great grandfather a big house before he was married his employer pictures off the wall and gave them to him Gosh as a wedding present Yeah. m Makes you wonder how much erm ours is worth, not as much as that obviously but er Cos ours is eighteen something or other isn't it? Is it? Mm. Ours looks homemade to me. No I don't think it is. I bet the local shop sold out of helmets. Mm? Bet the local shop sold out of helmets. Mm. You couldn't get them actually. Mm. and many more wearing them. Yes Yes she did, yeah, mhm. Yeah Yeah alright we'd better go and put the flowers in because I put a lot of the plants out this mo today. taking them indoors though Yeah I think so. Fifteen. About twenty three she would of said Twenty three percent. herself, yeah. Anyway erm what sh when I said to you when you, you said to me last thing oh yes that's right, and he, anybody that father's spoken to who has sort of had this Walkman on him, which has had umpteen sort of erm batteries and what have you tapes conversations, now she'll be back again next Friday er to pick it up. That's, that's, that's what it was when you, you know, saying you're coming back next Friday, that's what it was because father said to me what, what, what erm when is coming so I said well I don't know. But er she's coming a and gives him twenty five pounds for what he's done oh he came in, he came into the kitchen, it's ever so funny, he came into the kitchen to tell me about this you see Anyway he came back in there and I said to him I'm not really enthusiastic about the thought er thinking that I was involved with this as well so the dear woman turned round and said to me it's only your husband so I said well I'd better go back in the kitchen where I know my place. Said she slapping in her hand. I slapped my hand. No but anyway, that erm well, well we, well he is going to be twenty five pounds better off. I'm not. You'll be twenty five pound better off cos you're gonna g we am I getting it? Yes. Yes beca Oh I'm gonna have the twenty five pounds Cos you get twenty five pound worth of vouchers. Oh it's only vouchers is it? Oh I thought it was money. Well I thought it was to start with. I expect Dixons. Anyway er so they're coming anyway. Well erm I hope that erm you, won't be too long before you're reunited with your husband. Where is he? He's gonna have it at Wendy's, I said to Bridget oh he said no because I've Wendy's? Yeah cos erm he's taking erm erm David up to Andover which is his next posting Oh I see. and David phone him up and said will you take us up dad. Cheek isn't it really, I mean he could have got the train couldn't he? I gather there's a yeah alright Oh! all is forgiven. But no yes When's he come back, tomorrow? so he'll be, he'll be back later on tonight obviously. Aah you're, and you're on earlies tomorrow? Oh well yeah, thank you. What? I think I'd better take these books back down again I think, oh mind you I can put them up here perhaps. I got one, there was one up here actually. Yeah I knew there was you see Yeah. you know Austria and Switzerland Mm Yeah there was one up and one down. Erm what was I going to say? Oh yes, I know, this that one is really and truly an office lamp. I know it is, yes. I realize that. Yes. Yeah I mean it, it's perfect really for er well for me cos Well as well Yeah. erm you know when the light Well I knew it was but it the fact that it had a nice easy switch in the base was something that I'd been looking for. Well that, that's, you know,too hot I think to have that one on today so m so much milder. But erm Well it certainly is much milder. Right. Have you got the erm that paper that had that sort of erm No I've got it in, it's in oh you've got it there well I had it in there. It's not there now. I put it in there I haven't touched it. cos that's why I put them all together. Or did I put it in this one? No I didn't. You must have picked it up. What do you mean I must have picked it up? Well because I put it in that book. I would never have taken anything out of that book that you had put in because I wouldn't have known what it was about. What day was it? I've got no idea. Here are these here Right. that I've just picked up off the here. I like the way I must have taken it out . Well I know I put them both there together ready for this morning. Perhaps that's what you intended doing and never got around to doing No I know I did it, I d I, often I Well I often I don't know hadn't even seen it. but I did know that one. It was so cold the other day, you know last time we were in here. If it's cold they'll give you a fire. Mm? They'll give you a fire if it's cold the other day when Tony was here with his mum they had a fan heater Oh. Well it'll probably be alright, it's not so cold today actually. Good morning Muriel. they missed it last week but it's supposed to be correct. You know, they counted it but they missed putting it in. So do we count it, do we put it ? It wasn't counted in last week's at all. It wasn't counted in? No, so So we put it in as loose collection? Yes. Right. Morning Muriel. Morning Margaret. Alright? You look a bit sleepy. Well I had a late night last night my hamster came, kept me up late at night. A hamster? Yeah, he slept on my bed. Well it was, I was just trying to persuade it back to its normal cage when the, like,everywhere. They like, they gnawing at all the box. Oh I see . Oh. You'll have to give up hamsters won't you, most definitely. Oh you've got two have you? Yeah. Well! Perhaps they have to have their noisy times sometimes. Nocturnal. Nocturnal, yes. nocturnal? I suppose they are. Put them over here look and that that's it. Cos there was only one collection yesterday wasn't there? Aren't we the lucky ones today. I think we've only had one for ages and ages. Oh we You want to come you want to come to St Gregory's. If there isn't a collection though, an official one, they'll have one of their own for the I think the Bishop's cutting out the He cut them down, that's right, yes, yes. Quite right. Quite right. Now, what was I going to do? Oh The envelopes? before the envelopes . Fancy, you wouldn't believe that they'd miss that would you? This got missed out? This got missed out apparently. Well they say it's alright, I I think I shall probably check it. Well you'll check it anyway. Yeah. Oh, oh we of little faith. Yes right. Indeed. Have you broken up erm Yes. Do you have the whole week off? Oh that's good. No we broke up on Thursday. Thursday? Yeah so Oh yes I think erm Paul broke up on Thursday. Think it's those teacher training days. Ah that's what it is isn't it? Yes, mm. Just gives you an extra day off doesn't it? Think that's what they organize it for really. Do you want another pen? I've probably got one in my bag anyway. Well we keep on trying Father we don't get a lot of encouragement, I mean you're only having one collection on Sunday nowadays. Do you want two? Erm we went I went into the hall and saw that fire. Erm, would erm Mr sort of look after it and, you know, cos, would he be responsible for it do you think? Because it's, the school children go in there as well you see and that's a little bit of a worry but, but if they don't use it it'd be alright. But you know I'm just wondering what would happen when erm You see the, the elderly people on a Sunday morning who go in there and there's some, some rather Yeah. disabled people and, and it's very cold in there. They're too cold. Well,wh you know,wh what happens when the cylinder goes? Do you think he would erm know what pay out of the parish I suppose. Mm? No well I mean I can pay for it, it's just a question of getting it and sort of erm only we're not often here on a Sunday, if Mr is here, is it He's not. He's not. he goes with Father . Not Father , to erm er erm that place? Ashburton. Ashburton. You see there, there was a er not paying for it, asking about it, the finance committee how very cold it was for the elderly and they sit in there while some get taken home and Doris, you're quite elderly aren't you? I'm very elderly, my husband's very elderly, we manage very well. Well yes but you tell them that will you? And they'll tell you to go to hell if you tell them that. Well I'm on my way there anyway you see But no I mean that's not nice to say that because there are cripples Yeah. and people who just people But some people feel the cold more than others. who er yeah and Don't they? there's very few going in to coffee because of the cold in the Yeah. hall, it is a very cold Yeah. Well when we have our meeting Well it's just a question of really of, of some if someone can, you know, I mean Are you going to put a new fire in or something? No no we've we, we were talking about it actually, what we've done and erm of course it's the school children we've gotta think about Cos we have our meetings There's nowhere to put it away is there? It'll slide on th on castors. It'll slide on ca I mean I moved it into the corner so that erm Yeah is there anywhere that it can be put away when the children are not there? Or when the children are there. Well I mean the children, I mean if I go into the school and I, and say to them look there is a fire there but, you know, please will you not use it but it's just a question of whether the children fiddle with it really, that's We'll have to think about it this week while they're away, they're on holiday this week. Yes they are, that's true. But it's also a question of, you know, erm when it's exhausted Yeah well we can always arrange that. Yeah. But I'll talk to you some time about the heating because I mean the trouble is that no Well er er the whole thing, the, the hall is, is, is a big worry because they won't insure us because it's dangerous. There's no insurance on that hall to my knowledge there's no insurance. I didn't know that. Michael said to me, the first thing he said to me when I came here, that's the first I'd do, knock it down he said, it's, it's dangerous it's not . That's what he said, the first thing he said to me when I came here. That's, that's the first job you've gotta do, get that, rid of that. So there's no point in spending a lot of money on it? No that's what I say and, and I've written to the insurer to the insurer to tell, ask them what is the situation and we're still waiting an answer. I see. But we, didn't we I thought, I mean I, the fire people gave it the all clear. Erm and with, and with the erm with those fan heaters in there, there is as it were, no fire risk from it. No. Well fan heaters can be on you know but you can't hear, feel them unless you're next to them I think. Mm mm. And the overhead heaters were no use either, I mean that's why we put the fan heaters in cos they were better than the Well let me wait, I'll tell, I'll sh I'll tell you what the insurers say when they come back, when it comes. I'm waiting for them to answer. Right. But it's not insured I can tell you that. I have no erm er policy for it. And I've, I was, I don't know if it was Michael or somebody else told me that they wouldn't insure it. Oh well we've never known that have we? No we've never known that, haven't heard that. Well that's, well there's no Cos it was sort of insured when we first took it over. Yeah, there's no record of an insurance in the, the file. Oh I see. And so I, we have written to them and waiting for an answer. Right. So when we, you see there's no good putting anything in there erm or doing anything with it if we're not going to use it or if it's gotta come down in another year or two. No. Mind you when I said it's gotta come down it might be five years before it comes down, but you've gotta think of your outlay first. Yeah I mean there's no point in re-roofing it for instance. Oh no. Not as, as far as I know. But we'll see what they say. Is the insurance through the diocese Father? Well it's, it's done it's a di er no No. it's done privately but it's, the diocese have appointed the insurers. I see. We're done through Peter Mhm. he's the insurance broker and it all works through Norwich Union. Mhm. Erm and he's got some very good quotes for us Yes. you don't er insure a building according to its size now but according to the number of people who use it. It's far er fairer. Mm. I mean you might have a massive building And hardly anybody using it. you've gotta pay for it. Yeah. So it's according to the number of people that use it, go to mass, how much you pay Mm. erm on the insurance. And it covers everything but as far as I know, and I'm willing to be corrected Yeah I don't know. that, that is not insured. No well we don't know, we had thought that it was. Especially after No as far as it was all done up. Mm. Yes after it was sort of Well as far as well I know that Michael renovated. Michael said to me, the first thing he said to me, that has to come down. How funny, he never ever said anything like that to us. You've not heard that either? told me. That's the first thing, I know nothing about, no well I know nothing about structure or anything else, you know I mean But they had I don't know if you know it had been absolutely dilapidated, the hall, I mean it was absolutely run down and it wasn't used. But then there was this erm er er what was it called? The scheme er er to help The scheme, the youth scheme and er The youngsters Oh so that if The work, work something something scheme and and they, they'd refurbish it, all th th that we had to do was to pay for the materials, they provided the labour. And in fact, you know, I mean they er they made it Well it looks alright to me. they made it useful again. But if I, if I Usable. if I had anything to do with it, I would like those, those gas fires that we've got in the room at the back of the church there, they're ideal. The trouble is there The trouble is there's no mains gas there's no gas. into the hall. No well That is why we didn't, we would of liked to have had it but the cost to put the mains gas in was going to be so enormous Oh well and the electric supply is limited to the heating that we've got, we can't put any more in because the mains supply again is not sufficient. This is amazing because in Cornwall they would put in the gas for nothing. Well I mean, you know, I mean Cos we had it done in our hall. they are now , perhaps if you had a word with them We, we we had it in our hall, we, they put it into the building for nothing Yeah and then you have to wire erm plumb it in or whatever they call it Yes Yes, that's fair enough. but they put it in to the meter in Well well th this was the problem, it was gonna cost I don't know how many hundreds of pounds just to have the s gas supply put to the hall and we felt that, at that time, we couldn't do it. Well I had the one Presumably there's no gas here is there? There's gas here. Yes You have got gas here, yes, mhm there's gas Well that might be that might be worth a a query I mean that might be worth a query if the Finance Committee are sort of erm er er worrying about the heating. Well well we'll have to see what, what the, what the er insurance man says first Yeah. Yes mhm. but it's a long time pl er term, we've gotta look at it and we've got to do something about it for, for heating if we're going to use it, if we're going to let it or something Yeah then there's got to be heat in there. Mm. But you see the rent Father We each want the same same thing. the rent of the hall is very cheap. Yes, but they'll have to But they have to put fifty pence into the Yeah the meter yeah well the gas ones the same That's that's fifty pence a yes? Mhm mhm They have to sort out But i i i if you find out about the insurance, see what that is Yes and then perhaps sort of contact the gas people again and see Yes I mean this was, how long ago ? Oh this was seven years ago I suppose. About seven years ago so two years ago when I was at we had the gas put into the hall. Yeah. They didn't charge to put it in. No. Well it would be worthwhile investigating anyway Yeah after we hear about the insurance. find out yeah it's all an ongoing thing Yeah it's all go isn't it ? Okay then thanks. It's good isn't it? Well I think so. I thought I was giving you a lift Well I, I thought of perhaps, you know, of giving you a lift somewhere. Good. Well I'm eleven forty one candles. Well that was here and Saint Gregory's you see. One two three four five six seven eight nine ten ten fifty, ten seventy, ten eighty, eleven, eleven forty one Right I think we can put it all together can't we and erm get a balance, yes? Yes I've added mine up. Have you got Post Office? I've got the Post Office one. Yeah. Well it makes you feel that you might do a bit of work with something Oh but I erm I mean my husband we had some nice dung Yeah round the roses and I didn't fancy doing it so so I thought let him do that, Well they want them to do their bit. You've got a nice lot of roses have you? Yeah, yeah. Have you got a big garden? Erm Biggish? well I suppose in front we've got two dozen roses I should think, could be more Yeah cos some of them are getting Yeah. and need renewing. And we've got out the back as well cos we did away with some of the vegetable garden because I mean Yes. You don't need so much now anyway. well not really because, and I think you can buy it sometimes as cheap, by the time you Yeah. Yeah. keep on erm Yeah. getting caterpillars off and That's right. rest of it biggest part of it and some of, part if it's in to grass and the other part I think is gradually gonna go to grass I think We've only got a very tiny little garden Yeah. We've got a big er but quite a big bit out the back behind our garage, there's quite a big bit there really. mm we've got erm just a little erm front garden Mm but we've a lovely lot of daffodils, they're all out now they're really beautiful Yeah, yeah I know. and crocuses Yeah. and erm snowdrops. Yeah. We've got a little tiny pond in one half of the front garden Oh yes yeah. and er that's very nice Yeah. to see the fishes and We've got a la quite a big lawn I suppose. Yeah. Before we came over here when we lived in we had an enormous front lawn Yeah yeah and the back well it must have been the best part of should think a third of an acre Yeah plot that we were on. Yeah. Too big. Too big I expect yeah not the time we didn't, we haven't got the to Well that's it, it's like my husband I mean he's working, he hasn't got the time and I That's right. I haven't got the time nor the energy, I mean not so much That's right. as I used to. I mean I Yeah cut the grass so Mm All over my body. Spots I see. See it? I've a bit more. I don't know if I've one up there? Yeah. Aye. Erm and my leg and that, but I don't know if that was through stress. It's not bad. Aye. But that's just been coming Yeah. out on me lately. That's right. That's just a stress reaction. It's see yeah well, did you know my mother died? No. Yeah. She died on the thirteenth of March. She was only in that new home fi five weeks. Right. Five weeks she was in it. But don't get me wrong, it wasn't a it wasn't a er s tragedy as such when cos it was the No no. Oh best thing that could have happened to Yeah. my mother. Because she was She was never happy. Ah, that was. You know. It was a, a release. It was a release because she just went down every day. Yeah. Oh aye. She went down every day. Now I want to see you in four weeks again. Oh you want to see me in four weeks? Mhm. How long did you give me my certificate for? Thirteen weeks. Thirteen weeks? But er you want to see me in four weeks to see about that? Thirteen weeks. But I want you to come back in four weeks. Mhm. I want you back in four weeks. Well I didn't have to wait too long for you today. It's a change. Is it? I know I keep saying to It's a change. myself , you know er cos I'm saying I said, how many's that that's been into that doctor? And a new doctor I was talking to, I says, three went in , I says,Hope they're all going into , doctor . Away and look after yourself. I think it's, I think it's er I'm just getting old, it doesn't happen . See, I'm used to doing everything myself. Mhm. I've always had to do everything. Aye. And wheelbarrow,, you know and see now. I keep saying,You used to your children, but they don't do nothing for you now, don't they Not much. not? I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for them nowadays. So, four weeks? Right, see you four weeks. Er right, aye . Right Agnes. Right. Thanks Cheerio now. if anything can be done to say one of must take those steps are needed to be taken up . Thank you Miss , Mr . Thank you Chairman I am interested from Charles who was saying recession, what recession, you were reminded of er an unfamous Tory jokes did when he came back from er, er crisis before saying . crisis what crisis in respect of this bloody . . that's quite right have I do, one part I th I, I think we should spiff up on, I've said that erm that er London er L B A were er did say that employees would be relocated in British Aerospace. The question is, don't mention a word of it, it says and I quote, every effort will be made to assist employees as they seek alternative employment. Well they all say that, don't they? Er every, every employer who has laid people off has mentioned making er strident efforts to er replace people alternative employment, some they already have but, in many cases of course they have not. The point that seems to be forgotten what Charles is that there was a meeting last month . Now members of the Labour group of transport probably, it, it, it's the question over lossing airport came up there and one came up now. I think you may find that there'll be a different decision made. Er as to existing policy, we're elected to change policy, existing policies were to an extent rejected to a large extent rejected by the electorate here to, er so that the electorate should do. The point that this motion makes is to try to make action, the facilitating attitudes over there is gonna lead to five hundred people losing their jobs in April. Now if the Liberals wish to vote for five hundred people to lose their jobs because they're allowed to do all well and good and our press release afterwards will make sure the people are aware of this. Erm this is an effort to do something, the last, I am sure the sterling efforts have been undertaking by Welwyn and Hatfield District Council in this consortium, you know where's the beef, where is the evidence that somethings been done, this is merely asking to look along this line to see if anything can be done. We are not suggesting any solutions, we want information with that information then er, a judgement can then be made by this Committee and something can be done to accept those jobs and to create employment for an unemployment . Thank you Mr Mr . Chairman, erm erm I am misses erm . . in my earlier advance. One one of the many reasons why I don't want to accept this Labour resolution er, I would like to support my own member, is that er we have very, that there will be appoint a member of the involving members from Welwyn and Hatfield District and St Albans District and County Council at that appointed meeting with officers will be considering the outcome of the consultation process. Joint officer reports coming from County and District and that is another reason why I I actually urge this County Council not to accept that resolution. Could I also say that Mr as perhaps inadvertently misguided us, there's a hundred and forty two people work for L B A. I have seen the letters from the Chief Executive of L B A, Mr , to the Chief Executive of Hatfield in which he categorically states, people will be redeployed where possible within . Has he made that statement in public?, because his public statement says does not Mr Chairman I believe I have the floor and I would also say that contrary to what we've just been told there are people employed by what was called and three to four hundred people are employed, they're not effected other than fifteen people, fifteen people were not effected by this statement and there are some hundred and eighty people who still work for and connected with the project. So we talk of five hundred redundancies is totally wrong and I think erm in the circumstances calculated to give the wrong impression I hope I will urge that you do not accept the resolution and that we accept in . Thank you Mr . Miss Yeah, I've got a question, the meeting of the various District Councils and the County Council is it going to take place before or after the redundancies have taken place at Hatfield? sorry, sorry I'm, sorry I missed that, which meeting, where?. Right the meeting for the various District Councils and the County Council, is it going to take place before the redundancies occur on the first of April? I should think there's a very high probability that it will because as I said to you earlier, the,yes. . Thank you, Mr . I'll say one thing now about a question. As say that your answers from the people at that in fact certain jobs are safe and being redeployed. All I can say is that in a period of two years erm of five, in that time there was five sets of redundancies at erm Hatfield, there are two occasions we were told that they went through it and agree with the unions that there'd be no more for twelve months and one occasion there was another chap in three months, so if you believe anything that the P A E people there, you know, you really want to wear dark glasses but could I ask you a question, I understand that there is something going on at work with Richard at and my guess is, is, erm that sort of job which we are, there is some form of development plans going forward. Can I just say, what he's really saying between the lines is, are we really saying that these few hundred people might be a necessary sacrifice to produce a greying plan to redevelop?. Because that's where I think the difference between us comes. That there's an attempt here to trying to save as many of those jobs as possible and I don't take the insurances of the gone through the system now, but exactly true you're saying that it is . Thank you Mr say for shall I put the er, Mr 's amendment to erm to the late resolution . Yes ca can I just check with, with, with the movement that the resolution is as follows? Er does each Government pass in, in, er is passed? And at the end does these all words are to given to and insert the redevelopment site for long term employment . Perfect. Thank you. Well can I see all those in favour of Mr 's amendment to the Labour resolutions? One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve, thirteen, fourteen, fifteen, sixteen. Can I see those against? One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten. Can I see then all those in favour of the resolution as amended? Agreed. Agreed. Agreed. Agreed. Mr . In order to I need to prepare my resolution. second it?. Yes. Thank you Mr . Agreed. . . Okay now move on to item number nine-four. Mr . Mr Chairman thank you for inviting me to speak and I think there's a preliminary for what to get a member of the Committee to propose the resolution and second it. Er Mr Chairman I beg to move that the member of that panel. Thank you. I've said that Mr Chairman . Thank you Mr Chairman, it's a pleasure to report that the was marked by a maximum of co-operation and a minimum of it and, at the risk of offending people by er designs of the factory, people or groups of people. The first of them is the group thank you to all of them for assisting the panel sometimes working on the computing. The second group, that most of them would of been since the report and each of them. The third thanks contain some risk, contains some risk of other on the part of the direction of law and administration, who is going to hear me behave rather like a Captain Hook and raising the crocodile. The crocodile in this case being Mr John . And I hate to take that particularly because if you are bored with this book . which is the report, you can go and see the film. . There're are complicated members of the terror act and it's not an entirely frivolous suggesting because if you have any doubts that the performance of this County Council in it's for duty to maintain the rights of way network to a standard appropriate for the traffic, then go and look even at a small part of John 's film. Mr Chairman I am going to be brief within the er triscale and resources we have available to us we may, I think, a reason of what an attempt to get back in current idiom, back to basics. Now don't take that too literally, certainly in sub zero temperatures and I think the first of December and to do so would I think er have er maybe with some risk of being in 's phrase stark raving bonkers but by that you may think I mean that I think we made a fair attempt to deal with the three principle issues which have caused so much annoyance to user groups, there's a backlog in modification orders. A very large number of obstructions and particularly season er seasonally obstructions and the visitors or should I say invisibility of many of the files in the network. In respect of the proposed problems, I think we have come forward with clear, simple and positive recommendations and therefore I would like to support the acceptance of all recommendations in this report and finally, though it's not my place not being a member of this Committee to comment on the budget you have agreed earlier. It is my understanding that the principle proposals at least in this report can be accommodated within the budget that you have agreed and therefore I suggest there is no barrier to the acceptance of the recommendations. Thank you Mr Chairman. Thanks a lot. Okay and I'll then move on to er Mrs 's resolution. If the, if only my with the er the resolution, I would like to compliment Mr with the handle of work and I think really it work and I need to find the problems in saying in what needs to be done, er County's work in this department. Erm we are making more money in favour to them and our resolution is to ensure that even a, a profile of work to be carried out, so that it's quite clear what's been done, the time scale, the er the amount of resources that is going to be needed. Not only so be the monitor progress in the work so we don't get ourselves bogged down as we have done before and not managing to carry out the work that's needed. We also going to identify at an early stage the financial resources that will be in next year in order to meet our obligation with identifying worthwhile all the time and then by a course of are reserved er to, to support Mrs . Before we accept the motions sir can I just speak. er Miss . Er thank you Mr Chairman. I would like to say in general Mr I think that as a Committee we should welcome this report which does, it really does er has done a very thorough job and ha a a and provides us now with a s understandable framework and and time scale work when you've got target and when brought forward or shown to any member of the complex that that erm I think provisionally with the backlog of what is now ready to tackle the result onto our and commissioner is grant er, er grant,erm there will be, it will be like an enormous benefits not just in those areas that John has taken us to but in general atmosphere which kind of be very tense and competition and I think we'll be, be seeing the action in this token er within it will be er target time, erm real pro real progress will be this I think the feeling of that will going, come by will, will, will be a lot of ruling er in this area and maybe even start to er leave the question from er as a result and the signal to the users of our serv , of the services and erm would go out of here in a planned way and in answer to er fairly speedily and you know what or reduce the erm the aggro. I would also like to welcome the milestone approach. Erm there is publication that, these are be asked for be sent a copy to every mem member with it's er in a way a milestone initiative in in the middle of work. Erm and although they do er acknowledge it, it is it will be er, it will be seen helpful systematic way of er assessing where the Council is perhaps sort it out and then in fact we will prepare with other authorities. Erm and will save probably eighty, will, will in some areas er will, will job. Erm I mean looking at the, er the only solution, I feel erm another poor factor of this committee is probably er erm unnecessary and if I look at appendix four which lists the possibles, if I can find, erm it isn't actually necessary to have rules all like this, er next years erm, next years priority will be dealt with next year. We have er instructions and it is it says on your instructions until health care prosperity can be committed within the erm, within the erm department so that'll be taken care of in it's place. It's not possibly to be obvious to say you write an estimate of financial communication, but the first year against the should say this is brought up for review. So I mean do think that perhaps you still got a lot, a bit of unnecessary and indeed and we er will not . Thank you Miss Mr . So, I'll be brief erm we welcome the report, we think that there's a number of very valid points, we hope that funding has been agreed today er allow er the major parts of that go forward and now, we are commissioners route, further a funding group as for future years, so they will be accepting er the second Labour amendment. Thank you Mr er Mr . Er Chairman, er yes my understanding of rights of way issues was er, er significantly enhanced by receiving and reading this, this report. There are one or two areas where I remained confused but I'm pleased to hear from Mrs that we're going to get some more information on milestones and growth because I looked at appendix B and thought well, yes, that tells me something but not a great deal. Erm I would welcome er more information on, on that. I wonder if I could just raise an issue on item two three D on page four referring to horse riding because there is a concern about a, a lot of walkers, that horse riding on footpaths creates problems for them erm in, in terms of chewing up the path in, in such a way that they're difficult to walk on, people even wearing boots. Erm so I would hope that the further consideration of the issue of horse riding on, on rights of way obviously that relates to bridleways but the issue of the use of, of, of, of footpaths should be addressed and indeed where there are er bridleways one would hope that there was space to er make available room for horses and room for walkers because if there isn't room er there are a lot of considerable er difficulties where horses, particularly where horses are, are, are regularly being erm ridden in, in, in, in places where th where the walkers wish to go. I would hope that would able to be er taken on board. the I mean with refer to footpaths you are not allowed to ride a horse on a footpath. But they do. . But they do. on bridleways to horses and walkers and . Thank you, Mrs . Chairman while though it's being recorded perhaps I could take this opportunity to add mine. As er Chairman of the last countryside forum that met on the twenty ninth of April ninety three, it's the week before the County Council elections. We recorded in the minutes that rights of way resumes high priority in the next cycle that a report on the subject be for submission at his first meeting June ninety three. I would like to record my thanks to the members of all sites who have given such enthusiasm and interest to this problem, this topic and that the erm County Council is now resourcing rights of way in a way which we felt was necessary and I would thank our staff for their persistence, patience and their continuing efforts with great er verseatue we I am grateful Chairman. Mr before we Yes I was just going to respond to Mr because we did actually discuss horse riding er o on the bridleway network along the footpath and er well I do hope that what Mr has said felt that he had has considering condoning people riding horses on the footpath are breaking the law. Er but the one point that was I want some explanation Chairman . challenged, one point of personal explanation, that's exactly what I didn't say, I said we had to ensure that walkers were able to use the places they can walk where horses can are, are also using that er, er, er route as well. It it's obviously wrong that where they have had access, lawful or otherwise, that the that they shouldn't be interfering with the rights and the ability of the walkers to walk along that route. Yes I know what Chairman yes of course the bridleways and bridleway then you expect to find er the horse has been along That's right. but the point I'm trying to make is that the person who made the presentation er o o on er for, for the best of riders, I think he's rather missed the point because he was talking to you about the, including, more information on er within the T V P and we did discuss, er we did like to make it quite clear during our er discussions that riding of horses on the highway is a matter for the T V P, riding horses on bridleways is a matter that we will have to deal with in basic in time. The two really are quite simple. Mrs could you start us now? Well I would speak on the way that resolution number one er that's the report we brought back to the committee about timing and implementation. I do feel that this is necessary because we are allocating or just allocating our proposed budget er a substantial amount of extra resources through the rights of way which I am thoroughly in favour of but I do think we need to know how that money is going to be used and which of the items which are to appear in the report are going to be covered by that money and which is still going to need to be addressed next year when we have to book in time for it for next year. I also think that having to report back would assist with dealing with the many, many people who have complained about the state of our footpaths network but individual complaints and with user groups and we're off to see representatives out of County Council, they're not here today but they're off to hear it at our Committee meetings and I do think that having an officially report back to the Environment Committee would assist in meeting their requirements would be good P R. Thank you. Thank you Mrs . Mr . Yes, yes Chairman and I think only being apparently support the report is heresay. Some of this information cannot be presented er within the timescales that have been talked about er therefore we need, we need some more information on costs and so on. If that's the way that Labour I am surprised they get into such a mess. Can we have a bit of sense and order in what we are doing, er and not pursue . Mrs Well can I . that we're talking about the money that we are proposing to spend on footpaths . in this budget that we've just passed and what we want to make sure is how that money is being spent. What they're able to do with that money this year and in that way we can make a reasonable assessment as to what has to be done next year and the years after and budget all, but we're talking about how they're going to spend the money that we've just earlier on voted for, for us so that we can see what is being done and also that the public can see because after all this all came up, the report to the ombudsman and the public will not be satisfied about our performance on that . It will be helpful for the public to see. We have allocated them that ran out of money this year and this is what is going to be spent on to improve the footpath network and in and say happily next year. Er so I think it's really vitally important that we do know, have basic what our money is going to be spent on this this year, not the year . . Thank you Mrs . I do you want to say something Mr . Okay Mr Chairman, er the three principal items were the modification of this, which will assume some statutory funds and I think that was the largest errors of the growth in the budget. The way marking costs a very small amount indeed our previous was about two thousand pounds and I don't think it's worthwhile, this Committee in chasing two thousand pounds throughout the . The er dealing with obstructions was difficult to financially, but initially it's going to be er coaxed with er within the existing budget. I hope that submission . . Thank you Mr . I wonder if we could move now move over to the first which is on er the first main resolution of which amendment to the other resolution. Hundred thousand pounds. in favour of this? over a hundred thousand pounds . . Can I see those against? One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten. Would you just like to count . That 's that gives us a problem. Er. Could we have a little democrat please. . . to be. . . . . . Mr about this. . I wondered, sorry can I just explain, interrupting if you have the time. Chairman er can't really use that refers directly to the Council. Now whether you actually wish this to go to the court Council I don't know. I just wonder whether the Chairman might ask for another verdict and then if that's tied it will have to go up before Council.. so we, so we can just take it explain Labour Chairman, chairman that isn't really fair, I mean the vote has actually been taken I mean I've no doubt there's a situation where we say, right, you know, it's a draw er, you know, this doesn't erm, that have a have . Erm you you accept the results the matter of prevention, guess it may be something which we wouldn't normally but I think in fact . I, I wish to exercise my rights as Chairman to re-take this vote. I was going to say er excuse me my hand up. . I Chairman on that decision and we re-take the first vote on amendment nine. Mr Chairman I I do not believe, Mr Chairman is it is it being said that every time a vote comes this way, if the Chairman doesn't like it, we can re-take it, I would challenge you on this No this make things a lot easier, instead of taking it all up to the full council. That's right. That is all Chairman . properly. . I called for a re-vote and therefore I insist that we have a re-vote . Mr Chairman, I don't think we can, it's illegal. I against the Chairman. Can I see you all voting? see my hand up last night. Nobody else did . I will therefore exercise my right on re-taking the vote . Chairman I would like a word. Could we hear from the director of administration the of the year because I hadn't known things could be, it seems to me exactly what I had advised the Chairman because I could not believe that on the basis that you want this referred to the full Council. Erm I'm also, I'm bound to say er not the whole issue that I counted the votes for correctly as I was not expecting the outcome . . but it certainly helps me to count them more . slowly than actually put up. I realise that it is my ability to change do get do not get any separately items will affect the rights of the third party. In a point of principle point of order Chairman which a group decision tendency to . That's the . Right I'm, I'm now going to take a vote on amendment one . . One, two, three, four, five, six, seven eight nine, ten, thank you. That's ten. And now can I see all those against? ooh, ooh. five, six, seven, eight, . stroppy. . taken . well he missed a good few hands didn't he? take . . Hold the recommendation as amended by amendment one. . That's not . Agreed. Agreed. Agreed. Agreed. . Next time I'll ask for a vote Mr Chairman . Yes. . vote . . . seventeen, the officers resolution. Agreed. Agreed. Agreed. . that motion. Agreed . Thank you. Those against? . Sorry Mr Chairman I didn't that I didn't hear the number read out. What numbers? Fifty, fifteen . Fifty nine. He said fifteen much . . Okay Mr . . . We are certainly going to make a resolution. Can I see all those in favour? . . One, one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve, thirteen, fourteen, fifteen, sixteen. See all those against? . Thank you. We now move on to amendment number ten.. . Thank you Chairman. . This report is, is about further consultation of and for restriction on provided by this society. It is the fourth in the series and I have to say it's fourth unsatisfactory er . Er so far the Department of Transport will go through those er or restriction guidelines. The first based on er a quota system which effectively is quoting copies, i.e. the noise rating of aircraft on quite a wide number of and the second system and more recent system is one which is based solidly upon er a number of . The information that the Departments have presented to us on which to er respond to the consultation hasn't even been very and indeed when we requested after the first round of consultation to know the existing number of lines on which they placed er their, their recommendations. Er they told us that the somewhere in the region of four and a half thousand night flights currently use Stansted Airport. In fact er they subsequently confirmed that the real truth of that was about half about two thousand er six hundred flights using, using Stansted, er, er, at the moment, erm the issue that, that leads us to is whether or not our transport should change er the er level of restrictions that they . Stansted and they chose not to. Er and Stansted in fact now appears to be completely out of proportion in terms of a number of night flights er it is expected to cater for compared to both Heathrow and Stansted. So I think turning to the er suggested resolutions, they're four main issues with and firstly that we are dissatisfied er with the method and needs consultation. Secondly that the proposed er quota level under both systems are both under quota system and and under required maximum system too high. It is better to to. Having said that er we would prefer a quota system for er Stansted because without it, we could have a large number of noisey flights into Stansted and, and also that er in terms of er both this and further consultations we would expect to see full information providing us from er, a to enable us to make a sensible conclusion. Here, here. Thank you very much Mr . Er yes, thank you Chairman. Erm first of all may I move the officers' erm recommendations on the paper if that's in order and I hope erm to save er to comment on the resolutions that er are to be raised by Labour and the Liberals. But first of all I'd like to congratulate the officers on the report er I'm sure that those people who have been reading the reports and officers of the County Council for some years er will have probably er, er it's been a long time since they've read one that's been expressed in such strong terms. Er and I think that is something that the Department of the Environment in particular on the Stansted Airport have deserved, so I fully support Terry in which this er report has been written. Er Mr has mentioned the point in the report so that there's no point in me reducing them, but we do listen to satisfaction. Erm I would like to take advantage of the things that I have actually done myself as a member of the Stansted Airport Consultative Committee and also as a member of Advisory Committee because I am Stansted representative and we meet from time to time and as apart from transport. After the last erm Stansted Airport Consultative Committee, three month's ago when we were presented with this press report that refers to four and a half thousand flights er over which period. I wrote a letter to Herts County Council, Essex County Council, East Herts and Uttlesbury. Er suggested that the officers have a joint meeting and get together and actually ask them what transport to be given the figures er for night flights so that they could and so on, and I know by the recent customer complaints and I believe members attended the meeting of those four Councils so that I think that discuss that. I therefore went into a meeting at in December and er we were presented with a report, we didn't receive it before the meeting, it was taken at the meeting and we said that we wouldn't discuss it if it related to night flights and again I wrote immediately back to the department of transport and I suggested that they should erm spend the report which I refer to, monthly figures of night flights so that the night flights could be monitored. And thirdly there's a meeting at Stansted Airport of the Committee tomorrow and I wrote and said so to the Committee and said could we discuss this with the Committee tomorrow and again I asked for information to be available to the public and particularly to local Councils so they could alter the situation. So that really means going on to the Labour resolutions and the Liberal resolutions . Er the only thing that I have not handed you is the Labour resolution which er twice mentions demands now although I'm supporting this strong report here, I think it's a mistake to demand things, it is, it doesn't put people in a very good frame of mind to coax them but and I would ask the er Miss who I think we're going to vote for this, whether she would consider changing to request, because I think we going to the situation where we make it known to the Department of Transport that we're a string of such like, we don't to upset them any more, I think that we requested that we answer is we would actually get a result in one. Thank you Chairman. before we . Thanks . Probably . . . Yeah, we will accept requests. Right, looking at the history of this consultation of the Department of Transport losing one court case and the following left by history consultation requiring a considerable response for every day. It is hard to escape the conclusion that the Department of Transport's totally incompetent and has no concept whatsoever of the possible implications of its decisions. Stansted is by the Government to be a major airport of the future and you would therefore assume that the Government would be planning that development but it is now clear that Stansteds future is based on unknown or undisclosed information of genius arithmetic and a desire to listen only to the aviation industry. To represent Hertfordshire residents we must give notice to the Government that is surely serious,sli slitshot consultation is no way to supervise the development of these airports. If it is the case that the present proposals from like the earlier and are within the law then it is only who the law is inadequate. It is clearly wrong that the Government to make decisions based on such poor informations, such poor consultation. We must however . and we must insist that the Government either justifies or reports its position. Thank you Mrs . Erm can I just make one comment on, on that last contribution. Erm in fact the Department of Transport have reached the subsequently of, the, third of December and it confirms to us that they did place erm their, their erm flight management figures on, on level . one of . night flight movements for winter nineteen ninety two, ninety three that had reached the . Erm th there's just a comment I'd like to make that they have said that they would place it on that figure report on our . . for . Thank you Mr .. Just a question Er if I may . Erm tell me something Mr C, it looks very much as if the proposal er the resolution er of Jane and, and that which is proposed by sergeant basically covers the same issue with are they? not really cos, cos if they are I mean a lot of people are more for , er the thing of Simon er, er although we've, we've been expecting the er the withdraw of the work demands a natural request erm th the Liberal Democrat one is much more workers and er, and er they mean the same thing, and I think I would er ask for this group er support er the second one rather than the first one. Thank you Chairman, could I I just point out to members that the working ground information on existing flight levels being made publicly available is already included in the little resolution, resolution little six on your original paper, ballot example. Er Mr would you like to your resolution. . Can I may a couple of queries Mr Chairman? Erm I have said all erm conservation processes have been out it is know as a sham, because they have their numbers quite determing of course what this intention er that proper consultation so this time round . I mean that's how we get a how much . perhaps Hertfordshire County Council average they actually got some information I'm sa , I'm sorry to say Mr 's got no have to state the position so far, not officer . So the reason that we put on erm at the simply is of Mrs and Mrs more accurately wants that this information is the publics and should be available to both the public and to local authorities. I am perfectly prepared to accept six set back, the thing to do would be to probably to separate the six, and six and a new seven. So we start a new seven er, er where the new information starts, and it's not simply an add on. Thank you Mr . How are you all . We formally second it Mr Chairman . Mr Chairman this little job will save a bit of time I think we've had er an amendment set by the, the Labour group for work demands through requests er, we want er support er what Simon what Simon is making here so we er we're making here so we erm small So I therefore I take it that all the to be agreed.. Agreed. Agreed. Agreed. thank you very much. . Now to item for remark two, item . . Thank you Chairman, erm, members will be aware that er a planning application has been submitted by at Heathrow Airport and of course it's got a big terminial at Heathrow. The planning application has been pulled in for, for final er consideration and er as joint planning authority the news of Hertfordshire County Council are being sought. Although it's not likely that the action will publicly required . will be held until nineteen ninety five. Under the Enquiry Rule Procedures we actually are required to submit a statement that was placed very early on in the process and indeed the work by it to see that a safe and greater . Erm following discussion at the Airport Policy panel, erm we submitted the whole weeks which you will see we set out in appendix er one of the report. Er this outlines the issues er which we consider should be agreed by the County Council er perhaps any, any but there's no comment on the we should say the quality terms but also on the Airport Policy Plan be possible starts we might take on duty now or in particular if it was discussed and agreed and thus agreed er pace is set out in appendix two. Appendix two represents of the agreed that policy panel considered that we should submit to the public enquiry. I think I would just like to draw your attention to one or two erm items in the report firstly the only application of his associated with er improvements to er passenger transport in the structure er, in hoping that the Authority's running into Central London and in terms of er traffic generation which is clearly going to be a, a significant issue in, in consideration of this particular enquiry. Erm the officers are suggesting that erm any paper comments and communications you make other than enquiry, should also emphasise that the need and desirability for these public passenger transport improvements to go ahead. Er the other issues, I think that, that we have identified relates to meeting er forecast passenger demand and the meeting about the role at Heathrow flight and the premiere international therefore for any country as he particularly in the . And also there is the issue of where the response er decision which you may have Heathrow terminal five, will in fact, in any future er discussions about er the further developments of Stansted Airport. Erm and that is one of the issues which I think we would need to comment on er at the last enquiry as the airport . However, erm this is the first chance I've had to speak today so I can't take all the blame of the er, of the, of the late start, erm I don't know whether it would make it any easier to the my colleagues on my right or my left erm to accept the Liberal resolution. If perhaps we regard it just as a, a technicality and an amendment of wording and where the statement of case prepared by the officers reads the development of a fifth terminal at Heathrow is supported in principal. All I want to do is just to replace the word supported by specifically opposed. Erm I think we can as a technicality and I don't know if we want to agree to that straightaway in which case we get on to the next item. . I see some shaking of heads around me, not to worry. Erm the policy panel that erm looked at this erm a week before Christmas was erm I hate to disagree with you with Peter we are not exactly unanimous in this views on terminal five and this is reflected in the erm, the Liberal Democrat resolution erm, past policy of this Council has always been to favour expansion at Heathrow rather than of Stansted and we are being asked today to confirm this stance at the forthcoming enquiry and well we're not faced with an either or situation. If terminal five doesn't get the go ahead, if it doesn't automatically mean that we're faced with expansion at Stansted erm this is one of the reasons why erm . we have our item five here about joining the airport policy consortium to making sure that members and officers views are er sort of, er officer and member representation and to make sure that Hertfordshire's views are heard on this policy consortium because as Peter quite rightly said, erm it's made up of members and officers of County and District Council's South of the river and yes although their com their main intention is opposing terminal five, regrettably yes they are considering expansion at Stansted er, er far more than an alternative. So I think erm Hertfordshire's voice should be heard and however, my resolution asks us to look at the possibility of opposing not only the building of terminal five but all further airport expansion in the South East be it at Heathrow, Stansted, Gatwick or Luton. . Erm Hatfield or Evesdon or . Denver and my own personal erm opposition to terminal five, living as I do in South West Herts is obviously covered by the fact that I do live within fifteen minutes drive of Heathrow or an hour and three quarters if you go by the M twenty five. Erm there are, however, and a number of other valid objections erm if I just mention them very briefly so as to save time. First of all the much talked about third runway proposed for Heathrow, this'll have a much stronger case for being located there, if there's already a nice new terminal ready to cater for it. Erm there's an economic imbalance between the West and the East of our region and this imbalance will be exacerbated further if terminal five goes ahead. Erm the imbalance is reflected in, in many ways but in one way is in traffic using the M twenty five, for example the Western section of the M twenty five from the M three, M four, M forty to the M one over the, the Western end where I live has approximately a hundred and sixty thousand vehicles a day which is e twice as many as the North Eastern side. I'm not arguing that we should put more vehicles round the North Eastern side, I'm just thinking that this traffic use reflects the, the imbalance in the region. Erm Heathrow has a massive impact on local roads already, thirty six million passengers a year arrive by road and of course there's also the airport staff and freight implications. airports Authority in their own estimate is that terminal five will only add a further seventeen million road users each year by the year two thousand and fifteen. Erm this is th their estimate so it's obviously a Conservative one. Only another seventeen million road users in the Heathrow area. By Spring of this year our beloved M twenty five will already have been widened to four lanes from the M three to the M forty and in November the Department of Transport's plans for the three lane link roads between the section between the M four and M forty were displayed locally in Uxbridge and places like that. These link roads would give us the much publicised fourteen lane M twenty five and the building of Terminal five would increase the demand for it. Other road building plans and in the, in the South East, well in August the Department of Transport er published plans for a five hundred and eighty million pound new road linking Heathrow with the A three. Okay it's not going through Hertfordshire but if they've got half a billion to spend, I am sure it would be better spent, public transport is only one way. Terminal Five will increase the demand for this extra route but as well as the regional imbalance there's al there's also a national imbalance erm airport capacity in the South East has exc increased at the expense of the regional airports, Bristol, Southampton . East Midlands, Newcastle, all keen to increase capacity. Manchester airport has a planning application in already to increase it's capacity from twelve to thirty million passengers per annum by the year two thousand and five. Trouble is the Government doesn't have a strategic airport policy nationally and each airport planning application, it just looks at individually on it's own merits. This is a shame because half of the U K passengers arriving at Heathrow don't actually live in South East England. They don't want to go to South East England. They have to transfer either to another internal flight or to the roads and again tells us that eighty per cent of Heathrow's passengers arrive there by road. Erm these internal flights that they transfer to, Gatwick and Heathrow handle one hundred thousand domestic flights a year. Some are obviously . internal business shuttles but a lot of them are long haul passengers who couldn't get a direct flight to their nearest regional airport and with the nineteen ninety three directive liberalising the E C erm or European Union Airways, more and more passengers from the North and the Midlands are going to take a shuttle to Europe not to Heathrow, they are going to fly from Ringway or East Middlesbrough t to Europe and catch a long haul from Charles De Gaulle or Frankfurt and indeed Amsterdam which you probably know is now advertising itself as Britain's third airport. I would argue therefore that the development of regional airports, instead of terminal five of the other airports of the South East would curtail this trend by cutting by, sorry, by increasing the number of long haul flights serving the regions directly. It will cut down on dom a number of domestic flights and of short haul flights to and from our European competitors. It would also weaken the case, the building of third runway at Heathrow and lastly it would reduce the traffic on our already overcrowded road network in the South East and hopefully remove one of the arguments for widening the M twenty five to more than four, four lanes. I move. Thank you Mr . Can I, who will second it?. Yes Mr Chairman, can I second that resolution . Thank you Mr . Er Mr . Thank you Chairman, er I'll I'll be mostly brief, erm we should not be supporting anything that Mr has put on paper er this afternoon. Er, er we, we feel it's er, it's misguided er it, it journalizes it, er does a very large number of things erm to er this County Council's views on, on er airport policy and various other matters, erm it would be totally er would not wish to er to go along with that. Er the, the only good thing to come out of these proposals is that erm that he supports the erm the appearance of the public enquiry and the sale of erm that, that erm he suggests for example that we should try the airports policy consortium, well we dealt that five years ago when we realised that Surrey and it's surrounding areas were getting their own pressure group organised to make sure that Stansted got all of the flack got all the, got all the few other things as well. Er and so joining the erm would, would be like this County Council now feeling prior to, to the hunts and various other things in the County. Er taking a view the other week that er people would support County. Er for the Conservative group er we agreed with our colleagues from the other side er the need to install by very close integration on public transport with anything that goes on at Heathrow er I was . concerned the other day that the government had second thoughts on some of the proposals there and I hope that they will reconsider. Er and we came with a very strong view I thought certainly to conclusion and I did that er, that those things need strengthening and must be a in taking part of any further distraction er at Heathrow. Erm and so I, I believe that er the resolution in fact on the order paper will stand er and if we were to remove the first two lines er of Mr 's erm resolution that the County Council he represents if necessary that in a full, a full public enquiry into the fifth terminial at Heathrow, if we get that and graft on the rest of his words er to the resolution er on the Chairman er that will do two things er it reads er the quality of our Officers are suggesting and it picks up again a very important comments er that he makes er regarding post , er , er something that is public erm, er and that it, it meets media and the other improve that's something for the district office report. Thank you Mr . Now Miss . Er thank you Chairman erm th that is one of the Liberal resolutions that we can get it is important at the sorry to give evidence of the alternative viewpoint and, and that is the case in, in opposing er for those who are opposing that er terminal five. I can, I have, I, I sort of are really quite dumbfounded by these er these sort of these motions, starting off with lets close down the whole of the South East England for all air travel in the future, I mean it's it's it's absolutely . state in the book policy er stable isn't an a stability is rural to the future generations, thank er thank relevant to the suit of each and I really don't think they would erm thank us for bringing about a demeaning for our premier, international premier this road. Erm to curtail it's competitive event er would be an absolute disaster shows that erm in simply because it is popular not just within the airlines but also the business er customers . international customers . and that is even in spite of people just erm to that now existing. If the Chief those to also want to improve passenger comfort but let me say in spite of all this er th th th the customer still favour and that is why we will be supporting the Labour resolution because it is about the state of it is about yes to keep our eyes and sort of providing a whole range of integrated public transport that goes along in parallel with that same . He didn't say, no, no, no, let's shut down our , let's shut down certain , in . That is er quite er to what should be happening. Erm, I think it, it, in the , obviously to, to support er, the, the that the building going ahead, erm will mean that the case at erm Stansted will be er containable to enabling passengers even if they are passengers erm it will be, will be absorb the public needs o of the area and the runners be erm arrived at after many, many er, er years Council planning erm does think that we can't contain that and er it would be possible to resist these rescued if we can remain at the figures that erm have been out at Stansted. But I think it's absolutely clear that if we have, if we have no sort of terminal erm perhaps it is yes to terminal two at Stansted and I do believe that we must talk and think and act competent er Mr has put various the case but, but we are entitled to we represent Hertfordshire people and we must keep more confident er and it's interests and I believe there is erm, if we don't do something, somebody else would be doing that, erm and it's and, and, and I hope that, that er the, will support and I believe that we will be doing erm so there's a lot more complex work to be done without erm congestion on the M twenty five, although we've got the work to put our case but at this very early stage be represented at the enquiry to put the evidence, to put the alternatives is absolutely . Erm I hope that we will be only supporting our report there of the report of the Liberal Democrats resolutions, otherwise we . Mm well thank you we've got . . I, I hate to contradict a lady but I does Mrs realise that she is voting against the construction of T five if you support my . Erm I'm, I'm touched by your but I don't think you meant that. Which one is it?, I'm sorry . . oh When the lady says no, she means yes. . . . Er Mr . Er thank you Chairman for allowing me to speak as a non member, I am however, a er member of one of your representatives on the Luton Airport Consultative Committee. My concern is that there should be no delay in the planning of er the extension of airport facilities in the South East. Erm the reason for this is that Luton er is not an attractive proposition on a long term basis but it anti er and that, that is largely for an environmental point of view of the fact that it will also not provide an awful lot of additional capacity but it is a highly economic airport from the point of view of the number of er the cost required to expand it er further er passenger and facilities they already have designs for the extension of the facilities in that airport and I am concerned that er delays in the planning process for terminal three er or for any other alternatives in the South East or for making alternative arrangements elsewhere in the country. I might believe er it might be a very easy option er for those in power to put in the increased . capacity at Luton to buy themselves three years extra planning time and therefore very concerned that there should be no undue delay in the er authorities coming to the appropriate decisions on the planning. Thank you Mr Mr . I thought I detected from that last speech Chairman that er Liberal Democrat group must help the enitre united in terms of what it . I support, I support. in relation to er adjustices erm we cannot support the Liberal Democrats er motions in relation to er, to T five, Mrs 's is, is right in saying our representatives of, of Hertfordshire who represent her own who represent erm Hertfordshire, we are also sort of citizens of the United Kingdom and not to afternoon we, er what ever it is now. Er we discussed er economic development with the Government, erm and whether we like it or not erm there has happened to grow up in er I think it's in West Hounslow, it is somewhere like that?, Hillingdon, erm Heathrow erm an international airport, er one of the leading international airports in the world of the big international airport. Erm in places Richmond Park in the economy er of in this country. Erm when talking about terminal five, we are actually talking specifically about better facilities er, increasing facilities for erm passengers. I know the jargon looks like passenger which will allow facilities er for our passengers. If you don't actually go ahead with something like sort of Heathrow is actually going to sort of lose ground in competition with other international airports and particularly within Europe. Now what will happen is erm, erm there are signs of which is happening abroad already, that people will go from the United States, other parts of the world, they will fly in and they will fly into Frankfurt and they will erm fly into other European erm airports and Heathrow relative to others will begin to lose it's position, and therefore from a national point of view, from an economic point of view, it is very important that Heathrow does sort of maintain er it's er position and nobody's denying that this may have some sort of, erm er important erm environmental erm dis dispendant and er if stick by them if you you're going to . The Dutch don't see that if your busy flight to you actually want to go to Amsterdam. We tend to see it from perhaps sort of Heathrow that you want to go in, into London because that's where, where the links are, by roads an and then the part of the link we've got is at Piccadilly line. Erm would like transport,you could skip off, you could actually go to anywhere within Holland, er through, by road, that you can go by public transport and go by train and you can go by bus to virtually anywhere in the country. You don't have to go to Amsterdam first, but you come to Heathrow, a lot of people assume they have to go to right into London. Er, erm I'm, I'm gonna lose my, my colleagues Chris in a minute to say why we in fact think that our sort of does need to be amended before erm we actually put it. I mean I thought personally that erm appendix one which was the initial submission was rather better erm in connection with the exception of three appendix one, it's rather better than you know appendix two is sort of drafted in terms of, of, of, of . So Mr is actually going to er talk about that but I just wanted to go through a little sort of resolution, I mean if, if you looked at it, if you looked at number one, it says express this opposition to further expansion and then it goes on and lists Stansted and Luton, but this expansion goes now I mean Stansted is expanding erm daily. That expansion is absolute daily proof, I mean it doesn't really sort of make sense now what does it mean, number one, number er A one A, the needs a airports and travel. I would argue that in the past we should be doing much more to encourage people to go to and from erm regional airports and I, I think that is important, they do need to be expanded, but a lot of the evidence erm er there's stacks of evidence which is founded in sort of er exercise is er in fact that there's not a lot of unreprimand, I mean, I wished that there were. It would be much easier for us to actually say that the . airports are, we shouldn't all be at Heathrow . so, so that's, that's a difficult erm one, erm I'm not sure about sort of one thing as well, I mean a lot of people who, who come into the South East who virtually fly out. Erm you know are they going to the South East and run across country. All the other people come over to this country anyway. So they're actually coming from erm elsewhere in the world. The article in number two and there is absolute opposition to any expansion of Stansted does that mean from now?. I mean this is the language some of this is the language of extremes Here, here. and er we cannot support erm that kind of Thank you Mr Mr . If I can at this stage Chairman move er the motion of my name and Jane . Er I think that in many ways erm I understand what two men are saying, er to of the in as an extremist is things to a very large extent still you never know. Erm and much of the point he's making I think he's covering, if you look closely, the resolution that we put, I should at this stage say I do accept the er the Charles suggested to start with into the first two lines. Terminal five on its own is complete madness, to say we're just gonna put it there and forget about everything else would be absolute crass stupidity. Er we never expected from the Department of Transport and any minute book. The it must be part and only a part of an integrated transport system, not only for the South East but the Country as a whole. Now lip service has been paid to the length of transport policy in the South East, on off er donkey's years er in fact an organisation roads an and then the part of the link we've got is at Picc was working towards one but we know what happened to that. The fact remains . that unclear . whether it's a large economic growth in Europe in places like Milan, Innsbruck er Barcelona, all have these systems where an extra terminal capacity is only part of the jigsaw that's had to be met. Now it may in our statement of case, and it must say that the points that er, er, it's not the shopping list that you put down there, the cross rail link is vitally important to the economy and money. The Kings Collins Cross terminal as it says here the Kings Cross er terminal for the cross channel route is also of vital importance and in fact it could be that with the development of a high speed, the high speed train services between not only London but also the North of England into the European local structure, that the need for . terminal five doesn't exist, it could be, that could be the case, research has to be done to see what er, yeah it could be that air, air line capacity and air line will drop as a result of er forward thinking rail scheme and there is evidence from the Rhone to Seine Rider Scheme that's been undertaken by the French, German and Swiss governments of the a drop in demand for internal flights in those areas and because of the German equipment everything is there. Also we mentioned an environmentally sound road system and it's not only that we're, as are you over there against the fourteen or twenty eight lane or whatever busy lane it is on the M twenty five, because by putting all just increasing the road capacity is gonna lead to great loss from Kings Kingston on Thames and Ashtead and Shepherds Bush to Solihull. The whole of the West of London could re re-reduced to a complete, a complete crawl. The effects of the present structure of Heathrow but even if you see er, if you travel into from Heathrow on the M four to West Central London . that there is, this grid lock situation I mentioned earlier on a larger scale has al already occurs er on the way in that er basically to Earls Court as I mentioned earlier it's in Shepherds Bush. Now if we can get a proper public transport system, a properly funded public transport system which will make, you can force people off the roads but you can also force them to persuade the approach with a properly funded er public transport system which is A priced within the peoples pockets and B er you can lead to views that will be er, er will be a great advantage for the area and the fifth terminal at Heathrow could fall par to this structure but if this new structure isn't there and if it isn't part of this adequately funded transport system then there is no point in, in building it was as I said earlier be, be madness. Another point to make a is that on no account should terminal five be used as an excuse for a third runway. Now I know said I was but I give the impression from that if you shake hands with them you should count your fingers afterwards . erm they have not in the past proved themselves to be the most capable o of people to er to support these things so in conclusion I'd say that we must put this as part of a shopping list, the shopping list is on there er it is something to bring London and the South East of England which includes Hertfordshire and to make it an economic and viable area and look at the evidence of the other cities and I hope that er all of you will support the motion. Thank you Mr Miss . . can I just make a couple of points. I'm, I'm rather disappointed that erm neither the Conservatives or the Labour Party are prepared to support a reasonable erm er reasonable plan because erm the, the Chairman is not certain plan which is represented by ourselves, Brian and Michael are routing very, very hard for a regional er airport whilst in fact that National Airport as passing along with a, a National Road er transportation strategy and everything else you can think of. So this So is County Council did not let er, Chairman, it is all for those in . Mr . Er Chairman there was mention from the Conservative bench that were actually closing down the South East, well there's no suggestion of that. That's er just that it's bullshit. Er the housing issues mentioned was since I've according to the petition . The population of that all property in houses are been built. Very few of those people work at Stansted Airport and I'd suspect that living in Stansted Airport wouldn't be an excuse for building new housing. Erm and so as far as extra traffic at Stansted Airport is concerned the big problem they've got is getting the airways to go there. Last year out of the three terminal out, three quarters of a million passengers. They're hoping to get it for this being an international airport . Thank you Mr . Just, Just one point, point of order they are actually having great problems in getting the translantic flights over there. Mr would you like to take exercise your right to reply? Yes thank you Chairman, erm I'll comment to what I want to do, speak to Alan . Er the chance of rejecting everything on the table, well he's now taking it back and he accepts the point, the point about the Regional Policy and he accepts the point about a National Policy. We are actually putting the clock forward not back. We are starting with the press that the need for a National Airport's policy I cannot think of a number, a major or even a concentrate all these airfields and resources in one region. I mean that's grossly unfair in other regions. the same is that you don't match your airport passenger to your airport demand. We are now in the game of cutting back unnecessary changes . We have already seventeen million extra journeys being generated into Harlow. How many of those are sustainable journeys? they're not. We are all the time, every time we encourage extra journeys we are encouraging extra C O 2 emissions the most part is found most important factors in increasing the security generation and all other forms of airborne pollution. And we're not considering any of it. Dealing with Jane's point with that, I hope she now understands we must . Now Brian when we talk about expansion we do not mean capacity that hasn't been provided that is not currently in , we accept the expansion has been already occurred in the South East of the . all we are always talking about is extra capacity. The third runways into Heathrow, the extra terminals at Heathrow, the extra runways at either Stansted or Gatwick. It's those measures that we are questioning now. Now Chris made a very valid point, he said, putting terminal five on it's own is just crass stupidity and fortunately that is what it can happen. This government is not believing in integrated strategy, it never has done and it never will do and with the current the Government expansion plans it is becoming less and less likely. By the day away from us. So we are put forward indicated do we want terminal five on its own hallmarked. The answer to that surely is no. Now the position is authority together with other local authorities in this area, to start with in this authority proposes that the Stansted expanse stay there on the environment purpose, we keep hearing you saying where Hertfordshire , Harlow. Unfortunately this is led to some rather less than glorious dealings including such actions with planning applications at Heathrow Airport by District Council. Now if you continue to rubbish under all that will happen is before long that Surrey County Council putting forward a planning application at Stansted. Er do we honestly want it? Now the reason we suggested that we join the consortium with the emphasis sort of thing we look on this with the District of the County Council who are members and it is now a wider the pamphlets, merely those adjacent to the terminal airport. But in, let's Heathrow show without any more don't be surprised when they support extra capacity at Stansted to make Stansted. I'm concerned now, I understand the reason why we adopted the approach in our area. We can't go on doing this for ever so that we support Heathrow terminal five, they support the second runway at Stansted. The only of the government is that they waived it and the only other way is the A A who just see the pound notes coming in. Thank you Mr . Er Mr . Yes I'd just like to pick up one or two points. I think first of all Chairman, the point about the Airport's Policy Consortium that er it is relevant erm, er perhaps you realise the whole purpose of, the risk of debt of the Airport's Policy Consortium is to actually push er development from Heathrow to Stansted and I would say that it will happen, that's what they are trying to do. The suggestion that er we should join this er, I mean first of all I think that's if they would allow us to join it, and obviously we realise why they want to join this, rather to the Archbishop of Canterbury saying he would like to join er sit in his cabinet and, and, this, this that sort of level of discussion. Could I come back to the point about the twenty seven million passengers or some of I'm not exactly, but I know it's a lot, erm figure, it's large number figure, as a num an extra number of cars. Now the point is that, that, that is not as a result of the possibility of extending er terminal five. That isn't as in predicted number of additional car journeys or people wishing to go to Heathrow, so what is actually suggested by the Liberals is that the those additional people are going to arrive and be serviced by terminals which are out of date and they won't actually have the facilities th that are required. You cannot talk about regeneration of of an economy or or s sustained economy, er it is one added to agenda and we will have to prepare to let the economy just over the border at Heathrow fade away and give it to another country. Er so o ,o only you have to follow the policy er which is sustainable for all the items that are on the agenda. as I say although, erm we've not been the government hasn't yet got an airport policy, it has got an airport policy and it's by the white paper er and so we can then say things that are not true. I do that it is time we updated the white paper. Er and take into consideration er Act since nineteen eighty five but it does exist er and also tend to agree that we do need a, a, er transport policy which actually takes er into consideration all er members of transport but the main point about this and Chris actually raises the point, er he referred to shopping it if we support the terminal five erm planning application but we say it hasn't been doing it, er on the consideration we get these other things which are on shopping list, then you are actually erm forcing the government that you have er, er and this integrated policy, the driving for in the long run. Thank you Mr er Miss . . so . Thank you, now that's all erm put sort of like these Liberal Democrat resolution first . So do I have the right to say anything else or not er very, very briefly erm just one two points of criticism. Chris refers to an environmentally sensitive road system, what a lovely thought er . I wish it would be possible, yeah never mind . Erm I could also support Chris's resolution if I thought it was realistic to hope for an adequately funded public transport system in, in the foreseeable future. Erm that's another lovely thought. However, I can on behalf of my Liberal Democrat colleagues, make Chris a solemn promise and this will feature in our next manifesto. Both of these, both of these, the environmentally sensitive road system and the adequately funded public transport system will be introduced as soon as this country elects a Liberal Democrat Government. . . I've . but, I've, until that happens I regret that I canot support Chris's resolution. . Thank you so er Mr . put the er Liberal Democrat resolutions quiet please, can I see those in favour. One, two, three, four, five, six, seven. Now those against. One, one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight . ten, eleven, twelve, thirteen, fourteen, fifteen, sixteen, seventeen, eighteen. well we get two votes because you're the goodies. . I think we must seek clarification Mr and your willing to take the resolution and drop the first two lines of your resolution. Take it . Yes that would include integrated adequately funded trans public transport system as it did in the last . . right can I see all those in favour please? . three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve, thirteen, fourteen, fifteen, sixteen, seventeen, eighteen, nineteen, twenty, ooh. Can I see those against? One, two, three, four, five, that did it. Er before we go on to our that we have a break for ten minutes for those who wish to make phone calls er the only thing is the coffee is being suggested as well there is only facilities available in the members room. I would arrange for you . Chairman couldn't we get finish? Can we press on now. . The point is Mr Chairman, some of us can't now get to other appointments we've got to make phone calls. That's right. We're so close to finishing We're not . . there's a phone under the Chairman's desk. . . Chairman some of us have already slipped out and made those phone calls couldn't somebody else not do the same? Can we have a vote on this Chairman? Can we have a vote on this please then. . I have actually phoned for takeaways for the entire group . . Can I, those, those, those who are in favour, we'll continue on in business Well don't count on it being short then. it's up to you. Still . Chairman . . Yes. . Yes. go round . . Therefore if we go on to item number twelve. . . . . . Now Mr . Thank you Chairman. Erm this report i is a responsible request and as we consider er what the implications are mainly from the any privatisation of in which . I think the report er identifies two main issues, er one which revolves around whether or not when erm part of which er would be required by, there still remains that will be safe enough. The current of three million to grow or rights of access er to the and experience to date has suggested that, that has been on a voluntary necessarily popular on, on a . And the second issue revolves around whether or not er ca there are any employment issues resulting from the transfer of identifies that in, in Hertfordshire particularly with very little er voluntary commission will that be er the employments in fact are likely to be minimal in, in the . The only other thing I would say is that we have in the report used the words, freedom to run and since writing the report we have been advised that er that is capa not capable or satisfactorily with legal terms and I would suggest that instead of the words, freedom to run we use the words, access management and permissive rights of way, to cover these. . . Thank you Mr . Is, is that euro speak Mr in other words freedom to Brussels rather than to Rome? . . Yes, I, the er the sale of policy commission land, I think is an extremely ill judged measure. Since the commission was set up in the First World War they in nineteen ninety five they said it would break even for the first time and agreed the last and thirties and forty come to maturity in which incomes are expected to double by twenty, twenty two. These trees were planted by the, from the public purse but they are likely to be harvested by private owners, so I'm not particularly be to happy about that. The government of course are getting capital receipt now, but sale we only expected to bring in some seven hundred million, it was thought the budget made for three or four days against the to be measure but there are only much more important arguments in the financial consideration in my opinion. Forestry commission estimate that fifty million people a year visit their forest, walking how people are and what have you. The forestry commission were once regarded as the covering the country with grand conifers but in the last twenty years they have been changing their ways, they now go half way to square yard their land. erm they need open areas to encourage others,they plant all the trees to encourage the growth of existing of all these trees in their areas. They encourage access by walks, picnic areas, car parks etc. They got an extra lot of teasing countryside management in conservation and this is why the countryside's three most active guardians, the association, the and the Council's protection of rural England are all strongly against breaking up of the forestry commission and selling off this land. . It is the concern of the people in Hertfordshire following the woods only about three miles away, they now and many Hertfordshire residents, I'm sure lots of people in this room use voluntary commission land where their, their on holiday. If this land comes into private ownership, it is very doubtful and dim the same amount of access and the same amount of conservation will be, er private conservation will be given and we won't have the control over it we have now. I must urge you to support our resolutions so that Herts County Council can join the many other Council and other organisation that are pressing the government to change it's mind. Thank you . I'd like a solution to second that please Region I want to make some comments about the UNISON er section of the report, because er I think it's concerning me that er we're basically not getting our act together. July the first more members er in, in, in local authorities than er than we've got in the whole of our union right and we've got twenty five per cent of our membership in, in local authorities and we're getting hammered and we're also getting at the same time privatization, we're seeing local authorities being broken up and we're seeing a creation of large numbers of employers. In my, in, in Manchester we've got two hundred and fifty odd in our Council which means we've two hundred and fifty different employers. It's when they start getting round to looking at our facility agreements, start looking at how we're organizing, the councillors, even if it's the Labour Council as it is Manchester, will soon cotton on to the, in the, soon cotton to their, their, their potential power in terms of threatening our ability to organize and UNISON won't actually be that far behind persuading them to do, to do that because they want to see the G M B getting smashed in local authorities up and down the country which means as far as I can see, we need some resources coming in to assist in our branches with local authority membership pretty damn quick, because otherwise we, come July the first, we're gonna find we'll be up against it. Already we're seeing sector the er, those er new independent colleges coming along and saying do you recognize, er G M B and er during the single union agreement with UNISON and we've gotta get our act together cos the only with thing that's going on, we're seeing local authorities getting smashed up and we're seeing UNISON which will be going right across the board. It'll put us when we've been in the majority er in manual workers in local authorities. If we're not careful they'll be demanding single table bargaining and they'll be then putting us in the minority in local authorities and we're gonna see this union under tremendous offensive as a quarter of our membership in local authorities, so we need to get our act together and get on top of this now. Mick to respond. Thank you President. I'll er respond to er to Phil from Southern Region to the first comment that er that, that, that she made. Yes, we do need to fight and I did make reference that we need not just to organize and cooperate with other public sector workers, but we actually need to build a campaign with the users of the services. We actually need to be out in the community working with people who are dependent upon those services and at the same time we've got to recognize that our nationally agreed terms and conditions are under serious threat. We need to inform and to educate our members and as Duncan said we need to get the resources down to local level. Liz makes the comment about care in the community and the back door to privatization of our care services. Yes, that is on the agenda for the Tory government. Care in the community? Yes we all agree with the principle. Unfortunately yet again the servicer has been denied the adequate resources available to implement decent care. It's ironical that only last week the National Association of Private Residential Homes were saying that they will be going bust as a result of inadequate funding. In respect of in public services, it was a minefield for a long time and perhaps we did not react as we should have done in the early eighties. Hopefully, I know we've got problems with those er colleagues who lost their jobs since that time, but we now feel that we are providing the best advice, the best service in respect of advising members on and the acquired rights directive. At the Congress today, there are copies of the new updated briefing pack. It's our intention to take our researchers and our legal department around the regions to speak and to advise their representatives' elected members on issues relating to . Bert made the comment about the front bench. Erm we're not always privy to what goes on with the front bench, but yes we have established regular dialogue with Jack Straw and the environment team, in order that we make sure we are saying the same thing. The A M A clause which has been included now in many of the contracts and the tender documents was a clear demonstration of the work done between the front bench, Walworth Road and the local government trade unions. Duncan asked about UNISON. Yes it is gonna a huge organization. We have got the expertise to cope with the changing face of local government. We have discussed as Duncan knows at the National Committee a strategy in order that we can address key issues and get the resources down to where they actually are needed and increasingly that is gonna be at local level. I think President that covers most of the points. Thank you. Thanks very much Mick. Colleagues we now turn to the Public Services Debate and in this particular debate propose to call composite twelve Transfer of Undertakings E C Acquired Rights Directive, motion two nine four Compulsory Competitive Tendering, motion two nine five Local Government Severance Schemes, composite thirteen Cuts in Council Services, motion two nine eight Local Authority Wage Restraint, motion two nine nine Pay Policies, motion three O two Protection for Residential Workers and emergency motion one the Crawley Dispute. I now call composite motion twelve to move by London Region, Liverpool Region to second and colleagues it would be helpful if the movers and the seconders of all the other motions would come down to the front. Er John London Region moving composite number twelve on the Transfer of Undertakings and Acquired Rights Directive. President, Congress, brothers and sisters the G M B is a general broad-based union, so the people here, the delegates here from the private sector may wonder what the fuss is about, as my colleague from London asked why wasn't all this kicked about twelve years ago? The problem is the government said that non-commercial undertakings as they define them, local authorities, health authorities and the Civil Service were exempt from the regulations. This was along with their miscarried philosophy of private sector good, public sector bad. The, the, the anomaly here this is when they set up the C C T legislation, all the services contracted out had to make a of return that's a profit in any language and that to me is a commercial decision and should never have been exempted from the very start anyway. Recent decisions from Europe give clear rules as far as the union's concerned and I hope the Labour Party. It protects the pay and conditions. The government is obviously trying to muddy the waters, they're claiming that if we put clauses in the contracts,contract is to bid for the tenders, it's competitive. This is nonsense. They're now even on to the vile Trade Union Reform Bill, they're accepting it admittedly but but they're accepting it, but it's in the wrong Bill it's in the wrong place it should be up in the front. They claim C C T was about efficiency, Compulsory Competitive Tendering. This now gives the light to it. This was only here to drive down wages and conditions of our members. It didn't matter to be honest in some contracts whether we won or lost against other people low paid workers, exploitation by the contractors. The reason I joined the G M B and I'm sure most of you was, in good times the G M B looks for improvements in pay and conditions, in bad times we look for holding on to what we have got. This gives us the chance, this helps us but that's all it does. The union itself, the members will also have to do something about this as well. Local authorities have been subject of budget cuts, rate cutting and unfortunately redundancies over the last dozen years or more. The G M B and other unions, but principally the G M B cos that's one I'm concerned about, needs to pressurize councillors and officers because councillors and officers have been bombarded with almost as much legislation as the trade unions have had from the Tory government and most of them actually just want an easy time, so you've got to hassle them, you got to harass them what they do. We have done this locally in my local authority. We've got to spend the award of the contract the day before because I put the leader of the council on the spot. They took legal advice and now they're going to re-do the tender with the clause in it, we done it locally. We've also in London, the London Region took, took tribunal for caretakers who were, who were not transferred from a school and we won that tribunal. It can be done, we need to move this up internationally because what we need to do is show the members that we can fight back. This gives us something that hangs, hangs the legislation on, this gives us a chink of sunshine in all the doom and gloom. C C T to some extend preceded the recession because it brought on members down to conditions that other people are now suffering. This was what a boost to when we won that thing at to the stewards and the members, it really was it was an uplift. People were saying the union can do something we can fight back and we need to translate that right across the country. As Mick said, it's not a it's not the end of things, C C T will remain until the Labour government get back in. However, and it also has a down- side because now the contractors will be able to see the information which used to be confidential that local authorities will be putting on the table, but the point is it's a chink, it's a way forward we need to build on this. Let's exploit this,let let's use this not just for the existing members, let's use this as a recruitment tool. We can go out and say we can fight them now, we can do it, we can use this legislation. I say we should this we should publicize this because we can win on this. I move. For the seconder of composite twelve, formally seconded. Thanks very much. Motion two nine four G M B Scotland to move. Sally Pickles, G M B Scotland moving motion two nine four Compulsory Competitive Tendering. President, Congress, since nineteen seventy nine local authorities and public services have been under attack from the Tory government. Attack after attack through privatization, compulsory tendering and hospital opt- outs. These attacks and these attacks and the anti-town hall and pro-Whitehall legislation has resulted in many G M B members suffering drastic cuts in wages. Er, women workers mainly part- time and school cleaning and school meal services have had fundamental changes in the conditions of service. Privatization for our members has meant more work for less pay with less people and with less time to complete the work. The, the Tories claim that that local authorities must be more competitive than the market place. Well we don't disagree with that. We all share the view that local authority services should be provided by highly motivated, highly trained professional staff but local authorities have had their budgets cut from central government over the last thirteen years which has restricted the amount of finance available for training and has cut to the bone the finance available to provide efficient and effective services to the consumer. Congress, the, the blatant exploitation of, of our members is totally unacceptable. We should debate and argue at, at every level to ensure the local government receives the money available to provide efficient, effective services and, and not be subject to the whims of the market economy where cowboy contractors can come in and undercut in-house tenders in order to gain local authority services. Whilst computing was the cowboy contractors in in order for our members to keep their jobs hours have been cut, bonuses have been cut and arrangements for a working year have been changed and many many other things have been altered in order for people to save their jobs within local authority services. Compulsory competitive tendering is not the way forward, what is needed is quality services provided by a quality workforce. The G M B must continue to argue at every at, at every level locally, regionally and nationally to ensure that our members are properly trained to meet the challenges that lie ahead. President we should be under no illusion that this reactionary government will continue to attack local government to attack local to attack local government our public services are at the mercy of the fast-buck merchants within the private contractors who are bidding for council services. We should continue to debate with local authorities to ensure that quality is included in the specifications for direct works. Quality that means providing a quality service with a quality workforce. President what this motion is calling for is a political backing required to remove compulsory competitive tendering. In the meantime, the G M B will continue to take a high profile and negotiations in order to fulfil our members' expectations. Thank you Congress. The seconder of formally seconded. Formally seconded. Thank you very much. Motion two nine five Local Government Severance Schemes G M B Scotland to move. Frank G M B Scotland motion two nine five Local Government Severance Schemes. some of you may not know the history of this decision. reports for nineteen ninety one to nineteen ninety two the Metropolitan Borough of the outcome of which local authorities in redundancy pay. This is quite clearly a case of discrimination. Discrimination between local authorities in the private sector, the private sector being allowed to set their own levels of redundancy payments, the local authorities having to stick to statutory . The discrimination between the local authorities throughout the country and the London boroughs pardon me are not included in this decision, in fact they're exempt from it. Colleagues this is taking away the trade union's right to negotiate a redundancy package on behalf of our members we need to negotiate a package when it's required for the members and for the members being forced out of their jobs with just a statutory they should recompense their service. Congress we in the public services have failed, have faced imposed redundancies since the introduction of C C T. We're under the constant threat of job losses. Redundancies brought about spending cuts to the public sector and by the extension of C C T. We have a government who are intent on privatization at whatever cost, a government with no consideration for the people of this country. We now even have a situation where some of our members that the local authorities have now been given guidelines to recover the monies paid to them and . All this decision means was in the public services there much greater use of a compulsory redundancy that reduces job security and results in much lower redundancy payments. It also makes local government less attractive employer. We in the public services provide a higher standard of efficiency and quality, in fact we provide a service that's second to none. We shouldn't have to compete with anyone. What we need is a good employment practice, not shifting of a goal post at every turn. Just to finish up colleagues this should not be seen as a willingness for local authority workers to give up their jobs, but it needs to be sorted so that our brothers and sisters who are forced into redundancy receive fair recompense for their loss. I move. Seconder two nine five. Formally seconded. Thank you. Composite thirteen Cuts in Council Services, Liverpool Region to move, South Western Region to second. Liverpool, North Wales, Irish Region. President, Congress, we move this motion, er I'd just like give you some examples. Being a local councillor suspended and I've been up and down like a yo-yo, as regarding the principles of this government. What's happening to the local government this time of the democracy and they have been savagely attacked savagely attacked at the locally controlled Labour councils. The standard spending assessments doesn't take into account the influence to spend, especially on the economic, unemployment and health issues. The government has drastically underfunded the in the community programme, the government is programme. This will have a major effect on the jobs and services councils will not be able to raise cash by other means. Compulsory competitive tendering is seen by the government as a means of eroding the working conditions. Conditions of brothers and sisters for many years. Competition within the white collar section is another nail in the coffin and an attempt to reduce to the paying conditions. The Citizens' Charter was introduced local authorities money to achieve. The issues of education, schools now are in control over their own budgets and if not handled properly will become a recipe for disaster. Prospects of wholesale changes in working practices and conditions of services, if we will be if we are able to compete with the private sector in an aggressive market. I call on the C E C and if you can find any Labour MPs to ensure maximum publicity to expose the cynical corrupt activities of this Tory government by mounting a campaign to make its government provide adequate services. I move Thanks colleague. The seconder for composite thirteen. The seconder for composite thirteen. Can I just say colleagues before you, you second the motion, there is this hubbub again that's growing, I mean it seems to go down and I don't know perhaps it's like the tide but can we try and keep it a bit lower, especially when colleagues are trying to make a speech from the rostrum. Thank you President. Avril , South Western Region seconding composite thirteen. President, Conference motion two nine six condemns this government's scandalously low spending levels imposed on local authorities causing drastic cutbacks in social services, who provides facilities for society's most vulnerable citizens, the old, sick and disabled. To show how safe services are in the hands of this government, you only have to study John Major's speech to the Society of County Treasurers at his Annual Dinner in London last December and I quote, together we have achieved much over the last decade to improve the services we provide for the people we serve and the environment in which they live, unquote. Well colleagues, he's achieved a lot of things, but it hasn't been in cooperation with local governments. Cooperation means working hand-in-hand, not hand-to-mouth. It's been in contradiction to the wishes of the voters of this country. Conference he's pushed up unemployment, he's achieved cuts on training budgets and used training enterprise councils. He has cut public transport funding and cut in the number of people employed in the public transport service. He has cut the number of schools and colleges and increased the size of classes. He has watched homelessness rise and yet he has cut public building programmes. Low cost housing has become less and less available, as councils have been refused the resources to build and of course this savage and unwarranted cuts in the social services. While councils are striving to avoid compulsory redundancies and adopting restrictions on recruitment, freezing posts and voluntary severance as alternative, compulsory redundancies are taking place. The scale of the mean that virtually every service is affected in one part of the country or another. President, the Association of Directors of Social Services recently published the results of its survey on Social Services Department nineteen ninety three budget plans. With a response rate of seventy eight per cent the A D F F survey reveals that in eighty two per cent of the eighty four authorities that replied, budget reductions were planned and in a further eight per cent a standstill budget was expected. Conference, I ask you, with that response what does that hold for our social services within our communities and how hopelessly helpless we must feel that given we will certainly not? Colleagues, this motion falls upon the C E C and Labour MPs to mount a campaign to pressurize the government into providing adequate funding to not only maintain, but to improve much needed services. Please support. Two nine eight Local Authority Wage Restraint G M B Scotland to move. William G M B Scotland moving motion two nine eight Local Government Wage Restraint. President, delegates, when this resolution was drawn up and passed by my branch at the latter part of nineteen ninety two, we understood the text of Chancellor Lamont's Autumn Statement regarding public sector workers and a ceiling of one point five per cent on pay increases starting in nineteen ninety three. It was to drive another nail into the coffin, into the public service's coffin, to go alongside compulsory competitive tendering, erosion of working conditions and compulsory redundancies just to satisfy their own political dogma not caring about the citizens of this country, whose quality of life depends on them the services provided by the public sector. Since the government's Autumn Statement we have seen increased health service charges, transport increases etcetera and now we hear in the recent Budget the result of Black Wednesday in September nineteen ninety two of which billions of pounds were thrown down the drain that workers will be expected to bear the burden once again. VAT to be imposed on gas on electricity bills and many other items, too many to mention at this rostrum. Delegates, this resolution is about uniting all of the unions in the public sector, after all we did it in nineteen seventy nine and as we all know that was against our Labour government, with one aim, to reject this government's pay policy and to combine and fight for a pay increase which we'll endeavour to counter the savage attacks which are being made against public service workers. every local authority and this is where the sponsored councillors can play a major part in this campaign, to fight for justice on behalf of their employees. Let's also use our union and other publications to publish details of their campaign. Let's have major demonstrations and all of the major with the regional and national leaders to the forefront and highlight to the people what our case is about and seek their support. Congress, I know I'm speaking to the team, but it's up to us and the activists who are not here to motivate our members and get this campaign off the ground and by supporting this motion, we will be putting the first foot on the ladder to defeating the government's pay policy. Congress, please support the motion. I move. Is there a seconder for two nine eight? Formally seconded. Thank you. Motion two nine nine Liverpool Region to move. President, Congress. Paul , Liverpool, North Wales and Irish Region. I welcome the opportunity to discuss the motion on pay policies. Judging by the mood of the Conference and the realities, er realities see more than ever before. Week after week, year after year, the economic failures of the Tories are apparent and every day of the failure we have seen the most valued assets, the people of this country, bear the blame and pay the price. The Tories' reduction of public borrowing has been excuse me has seen many public services destroyed or disappeared forever. Yet what workforce is left is asked, no it's told that one point five is a sufficient pay rise given the present economic climate, the catch being up to one point five, not one point five. We all know that one point five of thirty thousand pound is far better than one point five of three thousand pound, yet with the present government crisis the T U C lacks in leadership in building a campaign to reject the pay policy. The issue needs to be pushed to the front of the T U C agenda and a rolling programme of industrial action in key services nationwide throughout the public services should take place. There also needs to be collective approach so every union worker in this section rejects the present derisory offer and builds on a campaign run by the Fire Brigade Union. An acceptance of this offer without a fight will certainly lead to the future offers of any, if any being even lower. I move. Ian Liverpool, North Wales and Irish Region. When the Tory government announced the one and a half per cent pay ceiling for public service workers, many public service workers quite rightly so, were angry. There's an old saying don't get mad, get even, and the only way we're gonna get even with this government and we have to learn a lesson from history, is to do to this government what unfortunately we had to do in nineteen seventy nine and if any government deserve to be taken on, then it's this Tory government. The thing that saddens me is that we're supposed to have a T U C, that organization is supposed to draw together the various trade unions and what are we seeing, an ideal opportunity slipped from our grasp when the miners were facing the issue of jobs to public service workers should have linked up with the miners and we should have took the government on on the question of pay and because of the ineptitude of the leadership of the T U C, that opportunity has been lost and what are we also seeing in the public sector? That group after group have capitulated. They've not capitulated because they've not been prepared to fight, they've capitulated because there was no coordinated er, organizations to pull them together. I honestly believe that the rail workers wouldn't have accepted the one and a half per cent, other workers wouldn't have accepted the one and a half per cent if they believed that they were on their own that they were gonna fight in isolation. Sadly we've lost the opportunity with a couple of groups, but there are still other group left in the fight, this union has the ideal opportunity to spearhead that fight and I ask Conference to support the motion. Motion three O two Protection for Residential Workers, Birmingham Region to move. Formally moved, is that formally seconded? Thanks very much indeed. I call emergency motion number one the Crawley Dispute to be moved by Southern Region. Colleagues, Dermott , Southern Region moving emergency motion one Crawley Dispute. Tylers the Company that won the tender when Crawley District Council put it out of a bunch of gangsters and on the first of February Crawley District Council awarded under C C T their refuse contract to Tylers as the cheapest tenderer. Tylers have never recognized any union and are well known for the low rates and poor conditions that they impose on their workers. They are also totally anti-trade union, even half of the contractors think they are cowboys, gangsters amongst cowboys. For many weeks prior to the first of February we attempted to get a district council, a Labour council to agree that should apply in the case. They refused on the advice from the Department of the Environment. The first step taken by Tylers was to impose substantially reduced terms and conditions, the next step was to tell G M B members that they must work as many hours as necessary to complete their refuse tasks. Even though the waste tip was closed and to leave refuse overnight in public places is a breach of the Environmental Act. So much for standards. Our members would not breach the Health Act and five G M B members were instantly dismissed. The union immediately attempted to get talks going with the company, even resorting to ACAS, but Tylers would not talk to no one. We immediately authorized a ballot and we are now in our sixteenth week of the strike. We have started all legal steps open to us, for example industrial tribunal claims, we have given the council dozens of examples of breaches of the contract by Tylers, but they do nothing. We have obtained much support locally from other trade unionists and residents, we are attempting to meet the leaders of the Labour group. We are now at the crossroad, we need wider support and help both moral and financial and there will be a bucket collection at the end of this session. A victory for the G M B is essential, Tylers must be defeated. A Labour Council must get off the fence sack Tylers Now I love the Labour Party and a lot of what was said this morning was painful. We adopted the position and as soon as the issue's resolved the better so I'm somewhat reluctant in saying that Jack Straw could be less equivocal about C C T rather than concerning himself with what is written on the back of his party card. C C T has the potential to rip the guts out of the movement due to the density of public sector trade unionist membership. It is imperative that we fight. A victory for the twenty one members at Crawley will be a victory for all workers in the public services. I salute you and I move. Right, Phil London Region with an L Mick. Alright? Er, you've all seen this haven't you? It's a lie and I tell you why it isn't the southern problem, it's every region's problem. Every region here got this problem because all of you, every one of you have got local authority workers and other workers and Tylers is like a flea on a dog's back it's creeping in and they going, getting everywhere. Now I work for a local authority so I've got a big interest in this, but I've also been involved as John will remember in a strike. I stood outside for fifteen months with some girls from Barking Hospital, some of yous people might remember that. Ninety women that have all been forgotten, just like these twenty three could be forgotten today if we don't do something about it. The Tories are useless, everybody keeps telling us that, but are they? They're picking us off like flies they can't be that bloody useless can they? It's about time we realize they're not useless and done something about them because there are people that are listening to them and there's people that are voting for them and while people do that, Tylers will get a foothold because they've already got quite a big one, they're a big multi-national company and know what they're doing. They're not idiots either John. Right this big union, and it is a big union innit, big Labour Party what are they doing what are we doing to help people like these up here? Let me tell you about the Barking women most of them are dead, some of them are working for local authority. The Steward, Alice she's dead, she stood out there for fifteen months, she got very ill and she died and one officer from this union turned up at her funeral. She said to me, Phil, they can't my spirit, but they really took the heart out of me. Well what about this union are we gonna let it take the heart out of us? For Christ's sake, we gotta do something haven't we? John came down to Barking, he wasn't a General Secretary he was just an officer, and I remember cos I've got a good memory John what you said to me. You said er, I told, I told him I was fed up with the General Secretary of this union that hadn't given us any backing and you said sorry Phil, but I'm not the General Secretary. Well you bloody well are now John! The London Region was good to me in those days and the London Region are gonna put their money where their mouth is today. Now we're gonna make a start in London by offering a thousand pound today to those people up there to help them. Now how many other regions have got the guts to do that and if you do it, come on we can ask the General Secretary to double everything you do now come on give these people the support they need no matter what you've heard about John , I know he's a man of his word he's an honest man and he won't say that he didn't say that to me will you John. So, we're home and dry with some help for these people. Come on, make the man stand up and put his money where his mouth is. Make this union as big as John tells us it is Thanks very much colleagues, er, that concludes the debate, but the C E C are er, are recommending exceptions of every motion, but in respect of some are asking for a statement to be made so I call Mick to respond. Thank you President. Mick responding on behalf of the C E C. C E C is asking Congress to support composite twelve, support motions two nine four, two nine five. Support composite thirteen, support motion two nine eight, we support with qualification motion two nine nine and support motion three O two. The C E C welcomes composite twelve on the Transfer of Undertakings and the Acquired Rights Directive. As a union we've successfully argued albeit belatedly at some times, that TUPE protects public sector workers in all cases of contracting out. That has threatened the whole concept of compulsory competitive tendering and we will keep threatening the government's compulsory competitive tendering regime by using TUPE and the acquired rights directive as the legal shield to protect our members' jobs and public services from the Tylers of this world. The recently launched G M B, T and G information pack on the acquired rights directive has been well received all over the country and a revised pack is available here at Congress today, giving negotiators and stewards the latest information and arguments to use to protect members' jobs and conditions. So Congress please support composite twelve. Motion two nine four refers to the damage that C C T has done and in particular the effects upon women. Success for contractors has meant unemployment for all, but for women work council workers in particular. Women who are employed by contractors have often faced worse conditions and even lower pay. Many of them are part-time workers and many have had their already small number of hours reduced further. Private contractors we all know cut corners, services decline and women, customers and users of the service suffer. Most elderly people in this country are women. Many rely on council day centres, home helps and Meals On Wheels. Many of these services have been axed or reduced. Congress, we need good quality public services. Women and men who provide these services deserve decent pay and decent conditions. The C E C will campaign for that so please support motion two nine four. Motion two nine four refers to the discrimination council workers face as compared to private sector employees particularly in relation to redundancy schemes. Council workers outside of London and increasingly within London are no longer allowed to er, receive enhanced redundancy schemes. The C E C believes that this is not only unfair, but it interferes with local government democracy and free collective bargaining and should be opposed. We fully support the idea of campaigning to change the law to give local authorities the, back the power towards enhanced redundancy payments. Composite thirteen outlines the cur current round of government cuts in local government spending and the impact of this on services and on local democracy. The C E C wholeheartedly condemns these cuts. As I said earlier, our community watch has demonstrated the double-whamming of service cuts and job losses. We need to put the blame Mick could you wind up please where it belongs on Whitehall and not the Town Hall. Congress, the C E C is asking you to support composite twelve, support motions two nine four, two nine five, support composite thirteen, motion two nine eight with the qualification, two nine nine and three O two. Thank you. Would all the motions to the vote colleagues, composite twelve have you recommended to accept? All those in favour? Against? That's carried. Motion two nine four recommended acceptance all those in favour? Against? That's carried. Motion two nine five recommended to accept all those in favour? Against? That's carried. Composite thirteen you recommended to accept all those in favour? Against? That's carried. Motion two nine eight all those in favour? Against? That's carried. Motion two nine nine you recommended to accept all those in favour? Against? That's carried. Motion three O two recommended to accept all those in favour? Against? That's carried. Emergency motion number one recommended to accept all those in favour? Against? That's carried. Could I just say colleagues that the the General Secretary is proposing that we're having, we, we, we're gonna, we gonna have the bucket collection as has been referred to during the course of the debate and it's recommended that whatever is in the buckets that the union actually doubles the collection. Right colleagues, I now propose to call the Deputy General Secretary to move a further section of the report pages ninety to one hundred and four. Tom Formally move er President pages ninety to one hundred and four my section of the report. Thank you very much indeed for that Tom. Page ninety, ninety one, ninety two, ninety three, ninety four, ninety five, ninety six, ninety seven, ninety eight, ninety nine, one hundred, one hundred and one, one hundred and two, one hundred and three and one hundred and four. Colleagues, I now propose to call motion four three seven Education Birmingham Region to move. Formally moved, formally seconded. Thanks very much. The C E C are asking for reference of this particular motion and I ask Ann to put the C E C view. Ann C E C. The C E C is asking you to refer motion four three seven. The motion calls in the G M B to affiliate . This is an organization which provides study schools and briefing materials on international issues. It may well be obvious to the union, but at the moment we have too little information to judge. G M B Scotland and Lancashire Region are considering affiliating. The C E C recommends that we look at the experience of these regions before we take any decisions nationally. If we refer this motion to the C E Cs the International Committee will investigate this matter fully, once we get reports from Scotland and Lancashire. Please refer motion four three seven. Thanks very much Ann Do Birmingham, Birmingham Region accept reference? Conference agree? Thanks very much indeed. Colleagues, it's approximately four twenty five, what I propose to do is to go on for a short period and to take in the resolutions on the, on your erm Maastricht erm and then we'll have a look at the time, but I think we should be able to get those in within a, a relatively short period of time. But colleagues it's now my very great pleasure indeed to ask Steven Hughes Member of the European Parliament who's Deputy Leader of the European P L P er to address Conference. Can I say that can I say that it gives me particular pleasure to introduce Steven not least, because Steven Hughes is one of our colleagues in parliament who does a fantastic job for the trade union movement. Another thing about Steven Hughes Conference is that he knows what he's talking about,on on shop floor iss issues like health and safety and those colleagues who were present at the launch of the G M B's National Health and Safety Campaign will confirm that especially the way he described the Chief Executive of the Health and Safety Executive. Colleagues Steven Hughes. Thank you President and Congress for granting me the honour to report back on behalf of the ten G M B Members in the European Parliament. We make up more than a fifth of the European Parliamentary Labour Group in Europe, which in turn forms a quarter of the socialist group the biggest political block in the European Parliament and G M B Members cover the full range of parliamentary committees over the years we feel that a vast range of queries and questions whizzed by the G M B membership. It hasn't all been smooth running of course, I mean working in a parliament with eighty separate national political delegations, working in t nine languages, I have to admit we've made the odd slip. I will remember one G M B Member pronouncing on the shift in political scene in the U K through the miracle of instantaneous interpretation. Quite what the House when he pointed out that in the U K the turd is tiding remains remains something of a mystery, but perhaps they took it as a reference to our well-known problems with fractured sewer pipes and the directive from Europe. Or there's the celebrated case of one of our members speaking in last year's debate on the maternity leave directive. She informed an astonished House that each year in Britain forty four thousand women get pregnant while at work until then the French and Italian and other delegations had us down as a quiet reserved nation I suggested that perhaps there was a need to amend er Europe's personal protective equipment in the workplace directive to take account of this previously unforeseen workplace hazard, but so far the Commission have brought forward no proposals. But seriously the work we do for the union is only one part of the equation. G M B is very busy and very influential on your behalf at European level and we appreciate what G M B does for us. It's the first and so far only British union to employ a full-time officer in Brussels, giving you direct access to the law-making process and E C funds to set up to benefit trade unions. Kathleen Walker-Shaw is that officer in Brussels and is doing a magnificent job on your behalf. The, in the last few months alone, we've also had visits to Brussels by the General Secretary, the Deputy General Secretary, a number of Regional Secretaries, political officers, training officers and others. They've made hectic visits to Brussels registering your interests and meeting with those with greatest influence in the E C institutions. Also officers of the union play an active part in the work at the E T U C, its industry committees and the full range of E C consultative bodies and I think all of that work pays dividends. I'm a practical sort of person and perhaps I can refer to my area of work as the President said since nineteen eighty four I've concentrated on health and safety and workplace legislation. During all of that time my greatest ally and adviser in moulding the laws passing through the Parliament has been Nigel G M B's Director of Health, Safety and the Environment. Some sixty per cent of the amendments that we've adopted in this field have been incorporated in the finished legislation and that means in reality that much of the content of these laws has come from Nigel's pen, the pens of the other trade unionists inside and outside the G M B that he's plugged in to that system extremely worthwhile. We have been fairly busy. Six months ago six major E C Health and Safety Directives came into effect covering workplace safety, machinery, protective equipment, manual handling, work with computers and word processors, they've built on a framework directive giving workers new rights to consultation and the right to stop the job and the union has been watching the government and the H S E and me as well, in their attempts to water down the requirements of these directives and we might well lodge a formal complaint with Brussels that could land the Tories in Europe's Court of Justice. Another thirty Health and Safety proposals are on the way such as that on working time in the news last week and another to restore the protection for young people at work which we've lost over the last decade, and just as important the union has just n not just reacting to what's coming out of Brussels, it's actually helping set the agenda. Due to work by the union, the community is now set to act on repetitive strain injury, something we've campaigned on for years and in late June the E C's Head of Health and Safety will share a platform with John and Nigel in Brussels to launch G M B's campaign to create working environment funds at E C level to channel money to unions and their health and safety work. Our health and safety is only one G M B success story. I could refer to the work of our other G M B M E Ps. Carol Tongue's outstanding work on the European car industry. Hu Hugh dogged pursuit of social legislation. Gary Tiddley's work in highlighting the impact of developments in Eastern Europe and E F T A on European, on European industries. The work of Michael Hindley on and the developing world. Alan Donnelley's work on ship building and the maritime industries. Barry Sealsworth on the aerospace industries. Henry leading work on safety in the offshore industries. Lindon Harrisson's work tackling the problems our young people face and the ongoing work of David Martin to democratize the European Community institutions. Or indeed the work that you've just been discussing that we've all pursued jointly in pinning down the government on the transfer of undertakings directive. Helping bring their compulsory competitive tendering and privatization plans to a halt up and down the country. As Deputy Leader of the Labour Group in Europe, I look after liaison between our group, the Parliamentary Labour Party, the T U C and individual trade unions, but I can say in all honesty that the individuals just listed play a very important role in giving you access to the possibilities which exist to further your aims in Europe. And let me say in a personal capacity that if this link between my group in Europe and the trade union movement at home is important, I think the lin link between the trade union movement and the Party at home is of crucial importance. To weaken that link would be disaster in my view. But what of the broader picture? Well I can't unfortunately avoid mentioning Maastricht. It looks as though it will be through ratification in all member states by the end of the year. The clear majority view in my group in Brussels is that though not perfect Maastricht takes us a step in the right direction, setting about building the sense of a community on the market place created by the nineteen eighty seven Single Act. Not everyone has shared that view of course, two big questions have caused some to hesitate over Maastricht. Some of you will still be worried that the targets for reunion limiting public borrowing might lead to cuts in social spending. If that does concern you please get hold of the recent T U C pamphlet,sum summarizing advice on the subject from Chris Boyd, Jacques Delors's economic adviser. That makes it clear that the public debt targets are not rigid, they can be ap applied flexibly to take account of unemployment. It also makes it clear that those artificial targets can be revised and that should be the focus of our campaign to make sure that they are revised, to make sure that they take account of the real concerns in the real world. Levels of investment, levels of unemployment. The other cause for concern is the opt-out on the Social Chapter and some have said that should have been enough to cause us to reject Maastricht. I'll make just three brief points on the Social Chapter. First I think it would run completely counter to our internationalist traditions to say that because we have a temporary difficulty, we don't want the workers of the other er other eleven member states to benefit from a new Social Chapter. We should instead encourage them to press ahead, because it is a temporary difficulty, the clock is ticking towards the day when John Smith is Prime Minister, will convert that opt-out into an opt-in. Second, the opt-out will soon begin to fray at the edges. The Commissioner has already made it clear that if it needs to bring its works council proposal on where the consultation and multi-nationals through the new Chapter, it'll include workers in British plants and calculating which firms have to comply and U K firms operating plants on the continent will have to operate the directive there. And third, for every new piece of legislation under the new Social Chapter, there'll be a queue of continental employers and governments lodging cases in Europe's Court of Justice over the U K's anti-competitive behaviour. The opt-out will be unsustainable and I applaud John 's sturdy determination to go to the Luxembourg Court if necessary to win the benefits from the new Social Chapter for British workers. We shouldn't forget either though that we already have a Social Chapter from the ni nineteen eighty seven Act, it's not to be sniffed at, it's given us the directive on the protection of pregnant women at work. It's also given us the new agreement on working time which our own government have tried to work against consistently for the last two years, they now say they'll challenge it in Europe's Court of Justice, well what they seem to forget is it's gotta come back to Parliament for a second reading yet and they've created such ill feeling in the Parliament and among the Commission, that it's likely to be strengthened, we're gonna end up with a strengthened agreement on working time by the autumn of this year. So President to conclude, I think it's now necessary to look beyond Maastricht, to look to nineteen ninety six and the next set of inter- governmental conferences and beyond. As a movement we need to campaign to make sure that the convergence criteria of the monetary union reflect our concern and not of the monetarists. We need to press the case for the Social Chapter, but above all else, we the Left need to take the initiative in pursuing a strategy for employment and growth in Europe. As members of the Party of European Socialists, we are taking the lead in that campaign. With twenty million unemployed in the European community, the response from the Edinburgh Summit was pathetic. What was agreed there will lead to an injection of no more than twenty four billion into the European economy. That compares to the seventy billion pounds that Japan recently injected into its own economy on feeling an economic cold coming on. The complacency of national governments is fuelling the fear, the desperation and hopelessness which feeds the Front Nationale in France, the Republicana Party in Germany, the Blands Bloque in Holland and the other strains of neo-fascism throughout Europe. We must defeat that fear of desperation and hopelessness, especially among the young. We must reject absolutely a Europe where your freedom of movement will depend on the colour of your skin. The Party of European Socialists is constructing a European programme for jobs, growth and recovery to be channelled toward employment, intensive areas of growth, to tackle the pattern and distribution of work, to increase opportunities for employment rather than re-cycling unemployment and all of this to recognize that growth alone will not be enough. We will put opportunity in place of despair, renewal in place of decay and hope in place of fear. In this I look forward to our continued partnership G M B and the labour movement. Next year we have the European Parliament Elections, the only national test before the next General Election. I know you'll be there to play your part in that campaign. Sisters and brothers let's continue to work and campaign and together to create a Europe with a future, rather than one locked in the past. Thank you. Thank you. Thanks very much indeed Steven. Colleagues, er there are a number of motions that I have mentioned on Europe the first one being motion four one O, the Treaty on European Union be moved by Southern Region. Congress, Mr President Steven Southern Region moving motion four one O on the Maastricht Treaty. Colleagues, if we believe in playing the full part in the European community then as Steven Hughes has just said we as a union must back the Maastricht Treaty. The Maastricht Treaty is the only framework which currently exists for consolidating the European community's role in furthering European integration. It extends important responsibilities to the European community in the key areas of consumer policy, research and development, education and training, industrial policy, the environment and citizenship rights. For the first time colleagues, the community will be able to legitimately address these issues and initiate action into ensuring the E C is a people's Europe and not just a business Europe. Poorer regions of the community are specifically addressed in the Treaty to the establishment of a new fund which will help kick-start industry in those areas which are disadvantaged, due either to failing industry or to their position on the of Europe. Not only that, but all regions will have a direct say in European affairs at E C level, thanks to the creation of a new community institution the Committee of the Regions. The G M B should welcome this move which will give elected regional representatives a direction say in issues affecting their region and we should recognize the successful efforts made by Labour in the House of Commons to ensure the democratic accountability of these representatives. Of course Maastricht's attempts to deal with a number of important political issues. Colleagues, don't be fooled by the anti-Europe brigade who believe that the Treaty is about and hopelessness which feeds the Front Nationale in making the existing institutions more democratic. Too much power lies with the Council of Ministers who meet in secret, making it almost impossible for the public, national governments and the European Parliament to follow their decision making process. Such secrecy mitigates heavily against democratic scrutiny and it is unacceptable in a modern democracy. Maastricht deals directly with its problem by giving new powers and scrutiny to the European Parliament which means that decisions cannot be made unless both Council and Parliament agree. Of course there are weaknesses in the Treaty particularly from a U K point of view and it would be wrong to lead this union to believe otherwise. Steven mentioned the constraints that the E M U may impose on the economy, but the biggest single issue is the scandalous position in which this government has placed British workers by opting out of a Social Chapter and thus denying the right and protection at work which are granted, taken for granted as minimum basic conditions in all other member states. But as Steven also said, this was no reason for Labour to vote against the Treaty. What this, this union must do and what Labour must do is campaign for the earliest possible opt-in to the Social Chapter. To conclude colleagues, the Maastricht Treaty the dynamic evolution of the European community from where the single act in nineteen eighty six left off. The Treaty is not written on tablets of stone, it allows for changes and improvements as early as nineteen ninety six. Our European priorities now should be to campaign for the sort of policies and changes we would like to see in nineteen ninety six and seek the earliest possible opt-in to the Social Chapter. This is a battle which must be fought and won by the trade union movement now in post-Maastricht Europe. I move. Seconder for four one O. Charlie , Southern Region seconding motion four one O. The reason the trade union movement should support the Maastricht Treaty is it's the only Treaty that is on offer, there's nothing else on offer but it's a reasonable Treaty, it has differences in the U K and the reasons it has differences in the U K is the one Mr Major came back last December tell us what a wonderful opportunity it was for Britain, what a wonderful success it was for Britain that he'd opted out of the Social Chapter. Yet the other eleven nations of Europe opted into the Social Chapter. What's so different about workers in the U K to difference of workers in Germany, France, Spain, Portugal and Greece? Workers in the U K demand the protection of the Social Chapter. What the European movement needs to do, the labour movement in Europe, Labour and Socialist Parties in Europe is to monitor the Maastricht Treaty, because it is not necessarily the best thing since sliced bread, there are problems with it. Full and economic monetary union could be a problem, handled in the wrong way this could create large unemployment in countries. It could give and take away the rights of states to alter currencies and problems, but handled correctly it can be dealt with properly. It's an issue we need to monitor but the best way forward is for us to do that under the labour movement. Next comes the Social Chapter. Why, why are we different in the U K, why can't we have our rights? The easiest way we can get back into the Social Chapter is to accept Maastricht, without Maastricht there is no Social Chapter, with Maastricht we can opt back in to the Social Chapter. Now a couple of weeks ago a man called Mr Lamont actually resigned I understand or was he sacked I'm not quite sure, but when he disappeared off the scene, Mr Major said I am still keeping forward with my policies. Well if he's keeping forward with his policies, why did he have to sack the man? The man forgot one issue, the European Monetary Union, it was Mr Major that took us into the Economic Monetary Union at the wrong way, he took us in on a political decision on the last day of a Labour Party Conference in Blackpool and he's forgotten that. Now it was also interesting that after he forgot that two weeks ago we had his own Minister, David Hunt, crying on the steps of Brussels about the fact that the forty eight hour week had been passed by a majority vote, with only him opting out. He was really upset about that, but Maastricht gave us the ability that we could ex have that in Britain on a majority decision. I think we should support Maastricht, I think it's the only way forward. Thank you. Motion four one one Midland Region to move. just wait there. Congress, President, Ed , London Region Westminster Trade union Political Staffs Branch er, speaking on a free vote for the London Region but speaking in opposition to motion four one O. Congress, before you vote on this motion, I think you should read it carefully and consider er the, what could possibly happen if it's passed. The G M B if it passes this motion we welcoming a proposal to extend majority voting in the Council of Ministers to new areas. Now at the moment that might seem quite a good idea, we have a very right-wing Tory government and Europe seems very reasonable. In a few years' time hopefully, we might have a different situation where we have people like Helmut Cole and the right wing in France trying to block things that er, a British Labour government wants to do. With majority voting the European Commission and the Council of Ministers can put things through that may not be in the Labour Party's and our interests. Secondly I, I'd point out that it welcomes the community becoming more involved in industrial policy. Now this also could mean that under a future Labour government if they wish to support certain industries, they will not be allowed to do so by the European community. Thirdly, and I find it most worrying, it states here that this motion welcomes the concept of European citizenship, which throughout th through the Maastricht's Treaty will give E C citizens the right to vote and stand in European and local elections wherever they reside in the community. Now colleagues, at the last elections we lost two or three seats on votes of overseas British citizens. It's not beyond the wit of the Tories to move in European people into the country, into this country in certain seats from the right in Europe to make sure those seats are won for them again, and I think it's an extremely dangerous precedent to allow European voting if you're not, if you're just resident within Britain rather than a citizen. Lastly, it urges the House of Commons to proceed the to the earliest possible ratification of the Maastricht Treaty preferably with, but it doesn't say definitely with, the Social Chapter. Now the Maastricht Treaty without the Social Chapter is just a charter for business. It takes away any can you wind up, you've now got the it, it, it takes away all the rights from British workers, because the other eleven will have it and we won't and will make it a sweatshop economy. I urge you to consider very carefully before you vote and to oppose. Motion er, four one one Europe, Midland Region. Linda , Midland and East Coast Region. Motion four one one Europe. President, Congress. When this resolution was put together, my branch was very disillusioned with Maastricht. I stress we are not anti-Europe and nor was this meant to be a mischievous motion, but we are very distrustful about any deal negotiated by any member of this government. They play musical chairs in the Cabinet, but the same backsides are still there with one notable exception, but they're still bad people. John, some time this week you will tell us in the Midland Region that a package is just that, no picking the bits out, you either vote for the package or against. Maastricht was a package and Major kept the bits in he wanted for his supporters and opted out of the things that he didn't want, first and foremost being the Social Chapter. He said it would cost industry too much, he wants to keep a low wage, low skill labour force. Constantly in fear of losing their jobs and joining the massive ranks of the unemployed, but an employment is bankrupt in this country, unemployment caused by Tories and which we all know brings suffering to our people, and let's face it, how long is the rest of Europe going to put up with Britain attracting overseas companies because they can get away with abusing and underpaying our workers? A united economic policy in Europe depends on all countries adopting the Social Chapter and its provisions. At the G M B Centenary Congress I spoke from the platform, seconding a document on Europe and I expressed my fears and hopes along with a lot of other delegates. Without the Social Chapter a lot of our hopes cannot be fulfilled. Why didn't we start raising hell straight away after Maastricht? I could weep with frustration when I go around seeing the conditions some of our people work in, the pittance they have paid, young people hung around on street corners with no job and no real training. We need the European Social Chapter to bring unscrupulous employers into light. We can only go so far as union negotiators. Voting for Maastricht and hoping that the Tories can be beaten at a later date on the Social Chapter was a decision I found difficult to accept and I have done my homework on this issue. I felt once again the working class in this country has been let down, but I am aware that the Treaty has gone through the Commons, making this motion out of date. President, with a very heavy heart and bitter disappointment for all our people out there, who are depending on the Social Chapter to give them dignity, safety and a reasonable standar standard of living, I reluctantly withdraw this motion, but I will say this, we live to fight another day. Was the mo was the motion formally seconded before it was withdrawn? Formally seconded. Thanks very much. We we'll come back to er, whether you accept that or not. Motion four one three E C Works Councils Lancashire move er, Region to move. Wallace Lancashire Region speaking on motion four one three. President, Congress. European Work Council's probably a subject of which, which most people here know very little. So briefly, it was started in the er, late sixties early seventies, companies with over a thousand employees which had their member states er, at least nine hundred of them at the moment that particular covering at least thirteen point six million people. Well this is growing all the time due to mergers and takeovers. At the moment they're just a voluntary body, but it looks as though works councils will become mandatory for eleven of the twelve states in the E C, with the implementation very soon of the European Social Works Council Directive, Britain as usual being the odd one out, because of course it's part of the Social Chapter. Gillian Shepherd told other E C Ministers Wally, Wally I'm sorry to interrupt you, colleagues, you're starting to babble a bit, I know you all want to get to the European Fair and the wine and the cheese and all that sort of thing just bear with us for about ten minutes. Thank you er, Gillian Shepherd told other E C Ministers that she and virtually every employer's organization in Europe remained strongly opposed to the proposals and said it should be left to companies at local level to council workers. However the European Commission and most E C governments refute this and contend that legislation is needed to ensure that workers are not kept in the dark about decisions taken elsewhere in the community that could affect their livelihoods. Now, colleagues we come to the thorny question of election to these bodies. This is why the resolution was placed in the agenda in the first place. Your question of how people come to be members of these bodies seems to be shrouded in mystery. I've heard from people who have visited Brussels that meetings were being cancelled because the British Delegation were not even members of the trade union, but looking at the structure of the works councils in the U K this is no wonder. Could I please quote from the Bargaining Report Document dated twenty seventh of April nineteen ninety three which says, and I quote, works councils, elected bodies representing the whole workforce are becoming an increasing interest to the U K trade unionists and this par this in part because of the growing awareness of industrial relation structures in the rest of the E C. Well this form of employee representation is common, but the prospect that it be could begin to be introduced through the European Works Council Directive. What's interesting also growing cos the election employee representation is something which trade unionists are beginning to face as a result of initiative they'd taken by U K employers. These bodies are often called company councils, employee councils, advisory councils as well as works councils and as yet are far removed from the works councils elsewhere in Europe. A group of unions has endorsed proposals put forward by the Involvements and Partnership Association a document towards industrial partnership was signed in September nineteen ninety two, by the General Secretaries of the A W E U, A U T, B I F U, the G M B, I M S F, N C U, U C W, and . This document accepts that the traditional trade union approach to employee representation has been that the single channel for th for the representation should be through trade union membership now just listen to this colleagues. A non-unionist should have no right to representation, but believes it is now time to change to change this attitude. It therefore states that many British trade unionists now suggest that we need a new industrial relations institution where a wide agenda of issues can be discussed between managers and employee representatives that work company level. It considers that in return for this new institutional arrangement, many trade unions have accepted the idea. Wally I think you're gonna need to wind up, you're getting close to your time. Well er, basically, the I want to ask our General Secretary,i if this is the case er, non-trade union members can indeed elect represent representatives in councils and I say that there should be any election to these bodies should be by the usual manner by union representatives in the workplace I move. Thanks Wally. Jimmy okay. Well, I think Paul on behalf of the C E C will pick that particular point up that you made and respond to it. Yes Jim. It's alright you always wanted to be a star. Right Jim Right. Lancashire Region Sect er, seconding motion four one three. President, Congress, most councils may well work to the good effect in Germany, France and other E C countries, but with the Tory government in Britain it would be foolish to believe the trade union would play a great major role in those works councils. I am not sure at the moment if the labour are sure if they would work under the Labour government. As of the Tories as we're not going to for non-trade unions where employees are hand-picked by their employer. Therefore I must ensure that trade unions of representatives at works councils are not trade unions. I support. Thanks Jim Motion four one four Liverpool Region. Ken Liverpool, North Wales, Irish Region moving motion four one four. President, Congress, Conference I know we will all welcome all the pressure that we can be brought to this government and its pursuit of policies if that's the right world, policies that don't have a direction would just have them from one crisis to another. Bill Clinton's victory was a victory for morale, while European law is a more practical help in our efforts. Leading up on this as the members state at the E C, I believe we should not only have for the benefits of the European legislation to protect employees, but also to seek, form and strengthen links with the European union. If multi-national companies exist and dividing frontiers against workers for their own games we should organize, cooperate and perhaps even amalgamate to resist the combat, to co to combat common problems and disputes second or third class nation will not service British workers but will undermine the nations. We would not and do not like them ma manipulation and extortion of workers anywhere in the world. We must investigate and act to utilize what ways we can to defeat such abuse and division. traditional stance of unity. Crossfires of water and sea to is that unity is strength and workers of this union, this country and Europe and even beyond. United we will never be defeated. I move. A seconder for four one four. Formally seconded. Thanks very much. motion four one five Eastern Europe, London Region to move. Dave , London Region moving er, whatever it is! As the trade union movement has found out in recent times, sometimes to its painful cost, modern capitalism and exploitation does not recognize international frontiers and employers and their political supporters are not slow to export their practices to countries whose borders have previously been closed to them. The opening of East European borders has provided new opportunities for rampant free-marketeering and with it the exploitation of the workers in these countries. Right- wing politicians including our own Tory Party and those with even more dubious cre credentials and European employers are already active and working under the guise of economic liberators and democratizers. As an internationalist labour organization we must also stretch our wings and offer help and expertise to our fellow workers in these countries. Whatever nationality, workers share common problem and fears, low pay, poor health and safety, job security, poor training and poor social conditions. These are all international problems combatted only by cooperation and solidarity within the labour movement. Western trade unions have both the resources and the expertise to assist the workers in forming active free trade unions to combat from counter-balance the free market economy now being constructed in Eastern Europe. Help and advice will also be needed in their input in setting up a democratic political system, allowing them and their members full expression and protection. It is incumbent on us to be part of this assistance, whether it be financial, practical or political. The consequences of ignoring their plight will not only weaken them, but it will strengthen employers as they take the opportunity to export jobs to wherever labour is cheapest and protection weakest. West German trade unions have already had to take action to re to prevent their government from denying equal conditions to workers in the former East Germany. We too must play our part. It will not always be easy, attempts are always made to divide workers, whether by nationalism, racism or corporatism. Colleagues, do not let us shirk from our responsibilities to our fellow workers and this attempt to international solidarity. Support this motion. I move. Thanks very much Is that seconded? Alan , London Region seconding motion four one five Eastern Europe. President, Congress, already for former communist countries of Eastern Europe are attracting invest investment from multi-national companies from the West who see rich pickings from the those foot-in-the-door investments. Once they have a controlling interest, they will want a very high return for their money and the cost, well that will be borne by the workers in terms of lower health and safety standards, massive labour cuts from industry that is admittedly out-dated and labour intensified. In Poland for instance the approach to work is a much more leisurely one. That would change with labour cuts, er sorry, that would change with labour costs roughly one sixth of that in the U K. The door is wide open for their exploitation, Britain is being hailed as the Taiwan or the sweatshop of Europe and the government are extolling the virtues of investment in Britain for its cheap labour costs, well, how much more then do the workers of Poland, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Rumania and rest need protection from the money-hungry, the power-crazy multi-nationals of the West? There is a parallel between East and West a slippery slope that we dare not set foot on. A competition for companies to follow the cheapest labour could well ensue and the loser, the labour force, both East and West. The input from our union er, suggested by the motion is needed now. Eastern European workers must be informed on what to expect and how best to deal with it. The need for that is plain, the time for that is now. This must be an ongoing and er, this must be an ongoing commitment by the G M B and we would ask that the executive report back on the situation in Eastern European regularly and at least at every annual congress. Please support the motion. Thanks very much. Colleagues, the C E C are now accepting all the motions and I call Paul er Paul to put a view concerning a qualification with one of them. Paul. Thank you President. Erm Europe a very complex issue. The resolutions and the speakers' contribution show that very clearly. As the President said the C E C are asking you to support four one O, four one three er with the qualification I'll give you later four one four and four one five and er just thank you Linda for making me write up all the notes about that resolution and pulling out at the last minute. Thank you very much mate, very pleased. You know we're only gonna get the best from European initiatives when we start realizing we must deal with the present, in order to shape the future remembering the cruel lessons many of us have learned, particularly during the last twelve years. I admit to being a healthy Euro-sceptic at times, distracted by fears of the disappearance of my prawn- flavoured crisps, the great British banger, that's a sausage not Norman Lamont! Well I dunno though. Yes Norman Lamont you're right erm even the demise was suggested that the square sausage, which seemed possible on the basis of the conversion of metric tables and if you don't know what the square sausage is, the G M B Scotland delegates will only be too happy er to give you the answer. Ed spoke erm from my own region in opposition to four one O. Ed erm you spoke on the basis of concern for the future. Ed I've got some news for ya, there's actually need every scrap of help we can get right now and anything that comes out of Europe that gives us that assistance needs our support. European directives on acquired rights and the transfer of undertakings regulations have given public service shop stewards their first glimmer of light over C C T which they fought for a decade with little more than their own bluff and courage. The House of Lords today will see Tebbit and Thatcher that pair of b b b banshees! I nearly slipped up there Dick I, I,ick I nearly slipped up there President and called them slippery dog-eared toe-rags, I'm glad I avoided that one the demand for a referendum over Maastricht is described as a healing, positive thing for the Conservative Party. Healing, I wouldn't give it penicillin if had Vietnam of toothache and in-growing toenails all at the same time. Now I'm going to try and deal with the qualification. Four one three, the C E C agrees with the movements of motion four one three that European Works Councils should as far as possible be made up of elected trade union representatives, but the European directive needs to take account of different industrial relations traditions in different countries. British trade unionists have therefore been pushing for a slightly different wording that European Works Council Representatives should be elected by current workers' representatives wherever they exist. This would ensure that the organized sites at least representatives would be an elected trade unionist. That's the qualification from the C E C. Thank you. Thanks very much Paul. Colleagues I propose to take the vote. C E C are recommen recommending acceptance of four one O all those in favour? Against? That's carried. Motion four one one the region have indicated they'd prepared to withdraw. Does Conference accept withdrawal? Thanks very much. Motion four one three recommended to accept? All those in favour? Against? That's carried. Motion four one four to accept all those in favour? Against, that's carried. Similarly four one five you're being recommended to accept. All those in favour? Against? And that's carried. Colleagues just before we adjourn till nine thirty tomorrow morning, I would just like to make one one or two comments. Er don't forget the Crawley strikers, the bucket collection will be taken at the door as you go out every pound is worth two as the General Secretary has generously said. Don't expect that to continue by the way. Don don't forget as well colleagues the Euro-Fair evening when you can meet the new European Officer for the union that's er commencing immediately after this session being held in the Lord Mayor's Banqueting Hall, guest speakers include Steven Linden Alison and Barry . Samples of European food and wine will be available in what quantities I do not know. There'll be a fringe event on the Child Support Act between five thirty and seven thirty er in Commission Room number three. Some colleagues are giving me some messages to read out it wouldn't be appropriate to do so today because colleagues they er forget them, so I'm gonna do them tomorrow which will be more appropriate so please don't think that I've er forgotten them. Colleagues, equally I want you to extend a warm belated welcome to two of our Parliamentary MPs that support the trade union movement, George Robertson and Gerald colleagues. Anybody interested in going to the theatre from tonight onwards a member of the G M B if they've produced a ticket, you'll get it for half price at the King's Theatre. That means delegates will only pay one seventy five and two fifty er produce your credentials and you'll get it half price. Conference stands adjourned till nine thirty tomorrow morning. Thank you very much. Introduce Brenda who's going to speak to us on Make do and Mend and she's asked me to say that she'd be very pleased if people break in or erm sort of form some sort of dialogue with her as she goes along. If they've got anything that they wish to say or any personal reminiscences. So don't be afraid to interrupt her. And erm I'd also like to introduce Keith Mardell from the Longman spoken corpus who's going to be recording our meeting. erm and if you this is for the Longman spokus spoken corpus project. And he will if you'd like to come along and speak to him individually afterwards he will tell you something about that. Right so I'd like to introduce Brenda,ladies and gentleman. And er she's Oh sorry. Sorry, I thought I'd disturb Anyway Brenda Yes, sure. And I'm going to talk about, and make do and mend in the second world war. erm and as you'll be able to see from my introduction make do and mend wasn't something that suddenly happened in nineteen thirty nine there were sections of society in which make do and mend was a permanent and not not particularly erm welcome fact of life. Although the period between nineteen thirty nine and forty five seems to me and people of my generation to have been only yesterday. We are actually talking of events which happened over half a century ago. Doesn't it make us feel terribly old when we think of that. We tend to think nostalgically of John Betjeman's pre-war metroland of happy suburban families, of rosy cheeked farmer's wives with a plentiful supply of freshly baked bread, new laid eggs, strawberry jam and clotted cream. Of the comfortable paternalism of large estates providing long and useful employment for their servants. And an industrious and thrifty working working class supporting and supported by an extended family network. It was in fact a time when even just prior to the war many families had neither gas nor electricity to heat and light their homes, or basic public services such as running water for drinking and other purposes. There was in many urban and rural areas extreme poverty due to unemployment, bad working conditions, poor housing, inadequate diet, and chronic ill health. And for many people, make do and mend was always a harsh reality. Well if you remember that the Jarrow marches and the general strike weren't very many years erm you know be behind the preparations that were going on for the second world war. Even in the more affluent homes, labour saving devices we take for granted today either didn't exist or were an expensive luxury. Routine household chores like washing cleaning cooking sewing and mending were often done by women and girls employed as resident domestic servants. Or outworkers who were expected to know how to perform them to very exacting standards for very low wages. In in in my own family my mum and my aunt went into service you know when they were about thirteen and they used to do the most abysmal jobs for next to nothing. We used we used to have someone who we used to know who'd been in one of the big houses. And erm she you know she found it and she really enjoyed it. Yeah. Because I think she probably depended what sort of house household you were in. Yeah. And what I, from what I gather the bigger the household that people were in the more they enjoyed it cos the jobs were shared out more. But often the- when they were in small houses where they had to do everything, erm they tended to find that they were they were expected to sort of skivvy much more. Well I I was in the east end and of course where my mum and my aunt worked it was mostly sort of cleaning and scrubbing and charring and turning mangles in the back garden and all sorts of things. Mhm. War was officially declared on the third of September nineteen thirty nine, although preparations for it had begun as earlem I worked for a photographic company Yes? at that time and erm, we had a lot of German shutters and cameras in museum before September the third on September the fourth when I got to work they were all out. You had to put them all away! They were all being no they were all being taken apart Oh! and studied and er so that we could copy their Oh I see their which of course had er ceased to exist. In the shops things were much as usual because wholesalers and suppliers were still using existing stocks. To the majority of women, the fact that the famous Parisian fashion houses had closed, that silk stockings and imported luxury goods were more expensive and more difficult to obtain meant very little. The major impact was the break up of the family unit. Apart from worry about the safety of their nearest and dearest, what concerned them most was was that with the main breadwinner away, children still had to be fed and clothed and household expenses met. Worry was considered by Woman's magazine to be the main cause of an unattractive appearance. And in November nineteen thirty nine the editor wrote, anxiety is a dreadful ravager of loveliness. No man wants to come home from the war to a wife or sweetheart who shows in her face how much she has worried about him. Wash away traces of tears with warm weak tea. A secret which saw our mothers through many a crisis. Well erm this anxiety neurosis erm dominated much of the printed material in women's magazines. erm, you can see in these particularly you can look at them later on. No off days now, now she must carry on. erm winning the war of freedom, winning the war with freedom, nervous strain wore out, worn out with war worry . So th- people were most concerned that women's morale should be kept up and that one should shouldn't worry too much. And there were and erm I hope this isn't too embarrassing for the male members of the audience. erm lots of advertisements produced by Tampax, erm about worry and off days and this was because during that time menstruation was one of these taboo subjects that people didn't talk about. And many women actually did take to their beds when they were menstruating and erm sort of retired from active life and this wasn't possible then because so many women had been called up you know and they had had to be in the army or they had to work in factories and it wasn't possible for them to be absent. And so there was this sort of propaganda campaign that was done through advertising to insist that women shouldn't have off days any more. And erm Tampax were involved for another reason which I will explain later. erm the advertisements themselves called a great caused a great furore because erm Tampax was a fairly new invention and because of the sexual and social mores of the time they weren't considered very nice. And erm so that the campaign was working on two levels one to persuade women that they didn't have to take time off from working in factories, at certain times of the month and another to persuade women to use erm internal sanitary protection and as I said I will explain why later it comes into another section. By the first months of nineteen forty one, there were ten thousand women in the armed services. And all single or childless women between twenty and thirty were liable to be directed to essential war work of some kind as we can see here erm com coming to the factories erm there's a woman there driving a tank another one on er a gu a gun sight. erm some in the armed forces, working in factories A R P. So I don't know if any of you are old enough to have worked in factories or have been in any in the services? Well I was an A R P warden during the war. At the age of sixteen, cos there was hardly anybody else at the place where I lived so it went down to sixteen year olds. Yes. And my sister in law who erm my eldest brother was a lot older than me. I was six when the war started. And she actually took me on this war work. And and took me away. Yes? And erm that was considered. Yes if you looked after a child. Yes a child. Yes. And then when she came back and I was returned she actually went into a factory then. Yes. But she was a dressmaker by profession. Er but then she worked went to work in a munitions factory in Kilburn and she had a marvellous time. By the end of nineteen forty two, nearly three million married women or widows were so employed. Looking cheerful and attractive was no longer a domestic issue but a matter of vital national importance. It was a duty and I just have to take this one down. You'll have to excuse this picking up and putting down of, papers. Here we see an advertisement for Eyesilmar make up. Beauty is your duty, No Surrender by Yardley. erm figure precautions by Berlei, manufacturers of corsets. And erm fire-fighting but her manicure is perfect Home front hands can still be charming,tangee lipstick for beauty on duty Now foundation garments were considered to be an essential part of the trim active image which it was every woman's duty to project . So you mustn't, not only mustn't you worry you've got to be perfectly made up and have a super figure you know while you're making tanks or or whatever. erm A Berlei bulletin and I've got a this is one of the Berlei di Don't you think that a lot of the advertisements are just like advertising today, wanting to sell the garments Yes. rather I don't think the advertising industry had such a strong sense of duty but I assume Oh no, no, they were They just wanted to sell their stuff Yes. I think. But also of course there was this propaganda from from the government you know that erm they'd just got to keep up morale and this was one one way as you will see in a minute of how they did it. Even the government realized the importance of cosmetics in keeping up morale amongst women workers. Propaganda posters instructed them to, put your best face forward. And in August nineteen forty two the Ministry of Supply issued Royal Ordnance factory workers a special supply of high grade make up, and a booklet entitled Look to your Looks. Women's magazines were full of ideas on how to make the best of one's appearance in spite of the meagre supplies of make up available in the shops. Woman's Own, March the seventh nineteen forty wrote, do remember that when he in capital letters, comes back, he will want to kiss the hands that have worked for him and all our brave men. It will be easy enough to bleach them with some Milk of Magnesia the night before he comes home. Lipstick stubs were mixed with oil or cream to extend their life or to make creme rouge. Black boot polish was used instead of mascara, Sore eyes and tired skin refreshed with cucumber skins and of course plenty of raw fruit and vegetables for inner cleanliness . Once they'd done with our, figures and our faces then we'd got to look for our innards and so we had had to have inner cleanliness. In nineteen forty one the use of silk stockings was banned, and by nineteen forty two all hosiery was rationed to members of the public. Advise was given on how to colour the legs with substances such as cold tea, coffee, gravy browning, cocoa powder etcetera with the seams drawn in with pencil, crayon or burnt wood or cork . I remember having to do that for my mum. She stood on a chair and I used to have to draw the lines round the back of her legs with a pencil. And there's an advertisement here for Cyclax stocking cream for people who could afford it. There it is in a beautiful presentation box. As the war progressed beauty products became virtually unobtainable and a healthy mind and body were considered to be more of an asset to the war office, to the war effort, than a pretty face and soft skin. Women and Beauty in April nineteen forty three wrote -there is a special kind of beauty preparation that can't be bought in a single shop in the world because you must make it yourself from spirit, heart and simple courage and you make it fresh each day. War time health propaganda from the Ministry of Food told women through an article in Woman's Own nineteen forty one, you've got to look lovely for his leave. Do eat for beauty. Liver is your meat. It isn't rationed either . Oh now we come to some advertisements about food. erm somebody's got some books here that er we can look at. We were we were instructed to dig for victory and so we've got er erm a gardening guide And a book that I've also got called We'll eat Again which is full of war time recipes. And you might like to look at these later, these later. And erm some immediately post-war recipe books and I'm sure you know if you'd like to look at them after I've finished talking you might even remember some of the er the er My wife still uses the . So, so do I! You referred to the fact of erm, er items that weren't on the, on the rations such as liver. Yes? Of course you had to get them. Yes of course. And we had a during the periods you mentioned we had er lived in a village, and we had a very very honest er grocer. Who one day we thought well about time we had something so I think we said to him er about these things off the ration can't can't get, what happens to them? Well we have them he said . And I think that that shows that er you know the distribution of er non rationed food was not quite what Well it was the black market as well wasn't there? Yes. I was going to say there was a flourishing black market wasn't Yes. Yes. Yes I I can remember as a child my grandmother's erm, family all lived in the east end and I can remember that the you know on the occasions that they used to come down and see us there was always tins of fruit and all sorts of Yeah goodies that they'd got because they all worked in the docks! . We used to look forward to them coming. Fell off a crate did it? Certainly all over rural Essex everybody was killing pigs and everything surreptitiously. Yeah well you were you were allowed actually later on to you could kill a pig if you kept, you kept half of it and gave That's right, yes. for your own consumption but there was a lot of people doing it as, as erm illicitly. Illicitly . Yeah. Well food rationing began in January nineteen forty and I'm sure you're all familiar with with ration books. I'll pass them round. You can give them back to me I've got one nineteen eighteen. Oh, ooh. Er you can give them back to me afterwards. Have you ever seen a ration book? No Did they have blue ones for children? Yes. Or green Can't can't remember what colour mine was. I don't think I ever saw it. Well by nineteen forty two rationing had been extended to include most foodstuffs except fresh fruit and vegetables. Rationing or quota systems were later to extend to include soap and soap products, fuel, clothing, and most dress and furnishing fabric. Furniture and bedding was supplied on a docket application system. Nineteen forty one was the poorest year for food production. The nation could no longer support the expense of feeding livestock. And farmers had to grow more cereal and vegetable crops. Everyone who had even the tiniest piece of spare ground was encouraged to grow salads, vegetables and fruit and to dig for victory. It was to the Women's Institutes that the government turned to organize communal preservation of home grown produce throughout the land. This was backed up by articles in magazines and newspapers showing the housewife how to preserve fruit, salt beans, make pickles, chutneys, vinegars and sauces. Store root vegetables in sand and dry fruits such as apples and pears . I remember my mother having erm pieces of wood with apples rings on that used to be dried in the oven. Surplus eggs could be pickled in borax or water glass. In their December nineteen forty one issue of Home and Country magazine, the Institute reported that two thousand six hundred and fifty preserving centres had been opened. And over one thousand pounds of fruit had been saved. And the demand for jam jars had been so great that even salvage dumps and cemeteries had been searched for extra supplies . I can just imagine Women's Institute ladies creeping out in the night to pinch jam jars from from graveyards. One of the things that was popular was that the smaller things like rabbit clubs when people could then get food for them officially if they did that. Erm Yes I remember one of my aunts was belonged to one. And didn't really know anything about rabbits and I know my aunt it's a sort of family story that she took her doe to the buck and the buck had babies. .. That's the sort of thing that the government encouraged. That's right. Yes, groups, yes. Women who made their own preserves were able to obtain extra sugar in lieu of their jam ration. And those who couldn't obtain fresh fruit substituted vegetables producing carrot marmalade, marrow and ginger jam. Jellies flavoured with beetroot or mint and parsley honey . We we've got most of those recipes here erm in my book. There was even a recipe for lemon curd using vegetable marrow but no eggs or lemons . Goodness know what that tasted like!. We used to do erm we used to have erm a girl at school, when I was at school in east east London Stepney erm who used to bring mock banana sandwiches and that was made with mashed, parsnip and erm some sort of erm banana essence. Yeah? And erm they tasted I mean we all used to have a taste of it and it tasted quite nice! Well I I With marge Yes well in in the east end you bananas probably weren't very plentiful and that was the poorer people anyway. nobody had bananas, first bananas came in about forty five. Came a long way didn't they? one of these ships docked isn't it? Cos one of them brought bananas in. So we have erm recipes here for bottling without sugar. Oatmeal sausages. Walton pie, the infamous Walton pie. erm carrot cookies, potato cakes lots of potato recipes. Eggless sponge, eggless fatless sponge. The government issued food bulletins in newspapers and magazines and on radio to teach the rudiments of food nutrition . And as, as we said before, erm, many of the, erm people who lived in the poorer parts of erm the country, whether in urban or rural En erm England didn't really know about basic nutrition and and health I mean you just ate what was available but you didn't know why and so the government started this campaign to introduce you know knowledge about diet and how important it was. Housent There was a little poem, I don't know why I remember it but it was, if you have the will to win, cook potatoes in their skin. For the very sight of peelings deeply hurts Lord Walton's feelings.. There's just there's a Potato Pete poem up there somewhere actually. Potatoes became the basis of practically every meal. They were grated, and used to lighten puddings, batters and pastry and potato water thickened soups and stews. Carrots and saccharin were substituted for sugar. Posters showing pot-, Potato Pete and his companion Clara Carrot became household icons . erm there's there's Potato Pete and there's Clara Carrot, and there's Potato Pete again. Oh yes here's the song of Potato Pete potatoes new, potatoes old, potatoes in a salad cold, potatoes baked or mashed or fried, potatoes whole potatoes pied. Enjoy them all including chips, remembering spuds don't come on ships. Flour for domestic use was home produced and much heavier in texture than that milled from imported Canadian me- wheat which was banned in nineteen forty two. It needed more liquid, a strong raising agent and longer cooking. Nevertheless recipes abounded for eggless, sugarless, fatless, fruitless cakes, sweet and savory pastries, puddings and biscuits. The national loaf was rather an unappetizing grey colour I don't know if anybody remember the national loaf. And it was coarse textured. People complained that it crumbled badly and couldn't be cut into thin slices, so Woman's Own recommended that the bread knife should be dipped in boiling water in between cutting each slice. Unfortunately, a diet high in carbohydrates meant that some women not only put on weight but also stopped wearing their corsets . Which caused a, a lot of trouble, particularly in the Lady magazine. And Woman's Own. They were strongly reprimanded by Woman's Own whose editor made the strange assumption that large hips were synonymous with big feet, and she said the well corsetted woman has a good figure that will last her for life, and feet many times smaller than those of the uncontrolled . Well that put you in your place if you ate too many potatoes. With America's entry int o the war some foods were imported under the lease lend agreement. These included soya products, dried haricot beans, baked beans, dried eggs which were very popular and tinned pressed meats of vague origins branded Spam, Prem and Tang somebody's grinning there, do you remember those which could be eaten cold or cooked in various ways . Spam fritters, yes. And mashed spam and baked bean sandwiches were another favourite. In our erm canteen at work until quite recently used to do spam fritters. Mhm. I mean they're not they haven't sort of died out No, no They were very great favourites at school dinners weren't they? That's right. One of their most useful features was the thick layer of pure white fat with which they were coated when you took it out of the tin there was this layer of fat round the edge. It could be scraped off and used for frying and baking. And dried egg was very versatile. One tablespoon full of powder mixed with two of water was the equivalent of one average sized whole egg . Well I've recently seen that they've started selling it in Sainsbury's again. I haven't I haven't bought it but I've seen it. I think it was since the salmonella scare some time ago. To eke out the small meat ration, people formed pig clubs which is what you were talking about. They would group together to buy a pig to feed, fatten and slaughter. They were allowed to keep the head, trotters, offal and a proportion of the meat. The rest was retained by the Ministry of Food. Pig bins were provided in each road in urban areas for household waste and these would be collected usually by a pig woman with a horse and cart. The pig feeding scheme was so successful that even with rationing, the amount of bacon consumed in nineteen forty one was greater than the annual pre-war consumption per head. It was expensive, however, and a cheaper substitute was available called Macon made from pressed, sliced mutton. Sea food became scarce as fishing was hazardous and most of the beaches were mined. Icelandic salt cod was cheap, but transport and storage facilities were so unreliable that it was often rotten by the time it reached the housewife. Tinned pilchards were only obtainable on the points system. Some Canadian tinned salmon did reach the shops but it was very expensive. Fresh salmon and freshwater fish were not rationed but were price fixed and like game and poultry, usually became part of the black economy. Preparing good nourishing family meals was made even more difficult when in nineteen forty housewives were asked to contribute cooking utensils for the 'saucepans into Spitfire s' campaign. In nineteen forty three the Board of Trade produced the kettlepan . The kettlepan was erm a sauce- a thing like a saucepan with a a kettle that fitted on to the top so that you could boil your vegetables in the saucepan and boil the kettle at the same time. The lid the lid of the saucepan became the kettle. But resourceful housewives already had a far superior version. A stew was put to cook in a saucepan, on top of which was a colander where a pudding, wrapped in a cloth, was steamed. This was covered by a biscuit tin lid on top of which was a kettle filled with water for an after dinner cup of tea and the washing up. One woman wrote to Woman's Own describing how she fitted her garden sieve, lined with a piece of clean rag, into the top of her copper. And she was able to steam a complete meal while the washing was boiling. .In nineteen forty one on June the first clothes rationing began, and for that year twenty coupons were issued. The amount of coupons needed for each garment depended on the amount of material and labour involved in its manufacture. In nineteen forty two the Board of Trade introduced utility clothes, recognized by the symbol cc forty one . Here we are. I'm still using tablecloths with that mark on! I've still got a raincoat. . Not from the first world war! No, not from This trademark nicknamed the two cheeses was an acronym for civil clothes nineteen forty one. Eight top designers were asked to submit designs for four basic items. A coat, suit, winter dress and cotton house-dress. Each garment had to conform to regulations on yardage and use of approved materials. Restrictions were placed on the number of pleats and buttons on new garments. The width of seams, the depths of hems. Decorative attachments were banned, and the utility range was later extended to include clothing for men and children . These are two of the utility garments. This was a sort of a battle, can you see?, a battledress jacket. And a plain skirt and a coat and a siren suit. And um, if you'd like to have a look at this book, Utility Furniture and Fashion, later you can see some more utility clothes. On the fifth of September nineteen thirty nine a control of timber ordered was made by the Ministry of Supply, followed by controls on all raw materials used by the furniture industry and allied trades. Furniture manufacturers could only operate under licence to the government and most of their products were designated for the defence of the realm. By July nineteen forty timber supplies for the home market were withdrawn completely . And that ma of course erm posed problems for people just getting married or setting up home or people who had lost their homes due to bombing. After the blitz on London in September nineteen forty, the government introduced a scheme whereby payments for damage to the furniture of persons earning less than four hundred pounds a year would be made, up to one hundred percent of the damage . Four hundred pounds a year then was quite a lot of money. The result was an unprecedented demand for second hand furniture, the price of which quickly rose to exorbitant levels on the black market. By the end of the year the government was forced to change the situation and announced it would produce a range of standard emergency furniture for bombed persons. Basically it resembled that issued to hospitals, canteens and similar institutions. Once again women's magazines offered advice. Shorten the legs of that ugly iron bedstead, hack off the top and bottom rails and send them for salvage . You'd still got to look beautiful and have your corsets on and not look worried while you're doing all this hacking. The result will be a low, modern, divan. And they also said that astonishingly pretty results can be attained with whitewood furniture when painted in pastel colours. In nineteen forty two, a range of utility furniture was produced comprising twenty two articles in two qualities and three designs, each conforming to predetermined criteria . There are some utility furniture designs up here. In fact I think you can probably still pick them up in antique shops and second hand shops and probably a lot of people have still got some. In the beginning priority was given to those setting up home for the first time, families with young children, and people who had lost their homes and furniture through enemy action. The furniture was well designed and proved very popular. Other ranges and designs were introduced to cope with even heavier demands and with minor amendments, utility furniture was still being produced at the time of the festival of Britain in nineteen fifty one. Utility furnishing and upholstery fabrics were also produced to complement the furniture . These are two designs I you probably all recognized them when you see them, they were very popular. Can you all see? Yes it was it was a very coarse fabric and if you'd got animals they te it tended to claw. The designs had to be small to avoid wastage in matching. And only four colours or combinations of four colours, rust blue green and natural were allowed. Good Housekeeping gave advice on home decorating. You must keep to light, plain colours. Parchment, light blue or green or pale ochre. Very sound advice because these were the only colours available anyway. It wasn't possible to buy wallpaper, but very decorative effects were achieved with government issue distemper by using bi-colour techniques of stippling, ragging, combing and stencilling, which are now popular again . I remember curtains erm muslin curtains my mother made. And she died them pink and she, I can't remember what I think it was some sort of, erm cooking net that she bought. It wasn't real muslin but she made it out of this material. And she made a frill and she died them pink. Possibly it was the erm the muslin that that cows and things came in to the butchers. Yes, yes, I think it was. Sort of long tubular bits. Yes. One of the snags with the colours you mentioned, er was it red, er blue and green or reddish colour? Yes, rusty red. Yeah, rusty red. What happened was that I mean you made curtains er the rusty red was affected by light, so eventually you got a curtain where where the red spots had been there were holes. Remember that. Was that, was that so? Yes. It affected the fabric, I didn't know that. Yes, the red colour was always er and er this, so that the curtain had to be scrapped. kitchen curtains Yeah you had kitchen curtains that's right and all the red went into little holes. All the red went in holes. Oh that, that's strange. Our dining room chairs were covered in Rexine too . Back seat and backing That's right. Yes. And you could, you could push, push the seats up. Right so that's oh these are some erm designs for erm scarves and erm other accessories produced in the utility room. This is the victory design. And it's got victory written in small letters all over it and of course the v for victory and this this particular design here has got items of clothing and the number of coupons required for each item scattered over. And now we're coming on to your actual make do and mend. Women were encouraged by the Board of Trade to join make do and mend clubs . This is one of the government posters. And there was this awful woman, Mrs so and so, that was always telling women what to do and, she she wasn't very popular because some of the things that she suggested that women did to make do and mend were so tedious and time consuming. And they were encouraged to erm form make do and mend clubs where basic sewing skills and repair techniques were taught. As well as how to unpick a faded coat or dress and sew it up again inside out, that was one of the things mrs so and so suggested. Worn parts of old dresses were replaced with contrasting fabric and unfashionable outer and under garments were unpicked and remade in more fashionable styles. Children's clothes were made from remnants, old garments which could not be otherwise adapted. Sheets were turned sides to middle and worn blankets cut up to make sleeping bags for children. Housewives were advised to turn pillows over every morning when making the beds and the pillowcases would then last twice as long. All resources such as needles which were scarce, sewing machines, thread etcetera were shared. And buttons, zips, hooks and eyes, press studs etcetera were carefully sorted and retained. When unpicking a garment the lengths of thread or cotton were saved for mending and tacking. And scraps of thick woollen material were knotted into sacking to make split mats or hearth rugs. Magazines gave hints on how to m ake pretty collars and cuffs from scraps of unwanted material because we still had to look pretty. And trimmings using beads from broken necklaces, coloured pipe cleaners, sea shells, acorn cob nut and beech nut cups. Following the example of her majesty the queen, old felt hats were remodelled and leftover pieces mounted on cardboard to make buttons, or cut into interesting shapes for trimming belts and handbags knitted or crocheted in dish cloth cotton which was unrationed. Instructions were also given on making pretty matching covers for ones ration book and identity card and gas masks so you had a complete ensemble these are these are the belts and erm wore blouses and dresses again. And here is a petticoat made from parachute nylon. So did you get extra coupons if you were getting married or were you just expected to make do? Er you made do. You you had cur you wore curtains or parachute nylon or borrowed something. Parachute silk was a sort We think you did have extra coupons when you got married. I don't I can't well I don't know I I don't think you did. No see the material all people used was the nightdress nightdress material. The wedding dress. Yes. Have you got anything about children's toys, cos they were in terrible short supply Umm yes I do have I haven't brought it with me but I do have a book at home that that erm in that showed you know the pieces of fabric that you had left over from doing all this, erm I've got a pattern that my mother actually used to make things that were very are now very unpopular for my children. She used to make golliwogs out of old black stockings. And it showed you how to make things like that. Some toys you could get, the German prisoners used to make didn't they? I don't know, is that true? Yes, locally a lot of people got you know the, off the German prisoners of war used to make toys. And although they weren't allowed to sell them for money, people could give them objects, could give them things like coffee and things like that Yes. in exchange and they used to do quite a trade in, cos a lot of them were quite skilled at making toys. I mean they were on farms all round here and erm people used to, they used to do a lot of toys. People used to get them for their children and Like the French prisoners in the Napoleonic wars, used to do exactly the same thing. The manufacture of silk stockings was banned in December nineteen forty because silk was needed for parachutes. The only stockings available to buy were a thick brown lisle. These were not popular and as most women wore trousers or dungarees for the war work, hand knitted long socks or ankle socks were more comfortable and convenient. Those who were still fortunate enough to own a pair of silk stockings were given tips on how to make them last as long as possible. They should be kept in an airtight jar, and rinsed in methylated spirits before wearing. Colourless nail varnish should be applied to the suspender points and toe join as well as ladders or snags so that if you got a little ladder or a snag you put colourless nail varnish on it. Protective footlets could be made from the feet of old stockings. Odd ones could be died, bleached and died in tea or coffee to make a new matching pair. Stockings that were past repair were used as a base for the new victory roll hairstyle. After the suspender belt, suspender welt and foot had been cut off, the stocking was tied round the head and the hair rolled over and tucked into a v shape. And this style lent itself very well to uniform hats and caps. Pre-war underwear was available from high class shops but was far too expensive for most women. Utility underwear was strong and serviceable but totally lacking in glamour. And restrictions on yardage in use of elastic also applied. Cami knickers and french knickers became popular because they didn't take much material and were economic in coupons. Magazines gave instructions on how to make a pair of knickers from two silk chiffon scarves. Lightweight silky curtains reappeared as pyjamas, nightgowns, underwear and even wedding dresses which answers your question about wedding dresses. Patterns of knitted underwear for all the family were also available. In the immediate post-war years, supp lies of white or yellow nylon parachute material were released to the public. It was sold coupon free in eleven foot long triangular panels. Special patterns were produced in magazines and newspapers and instead of quoting the width and yardage needed for a garment, they stated the number of parachute panels you needed. The W V S and other voluntary services ran exchange centres where unwanted clothes, household utensils and small pieces of furniture were allocated a sliding scale of points which could be exchanged for other goods of equal value. Making do with footwear was a problem, especially for mothers of young children. Wear on leather soled shoes was saved by sticking on over soles made from pieces of old tyre inner tubes. In nineteen forty three wooden soled, wedge heeled shoes were introduced in the utility range and the Lady magazine gave hints on how to walk in them. If you find yourself walking a bit duck footed, concentrate on placing your toes in a pigeon-toed position and you will find that your muscles will soon cooperate . Well I think we have to stop there for a little while because it's nine o'clock, and I've just got erm a few more pictures to show you later on so if we have a short break now, I think the coffee ladies are ready. And erm you can come and have a look at my books or talk amongst yourselves and we'll resume later. Oh did they? I must just jump up and down on Mrs when I see her at lunch time. Emma, is Emma here today? Oh she's with Mrs is she? I see now we've got lots to do this morning, you're going to need to ignore what's going on behind me, ah, it's not happening, right, as I said to you at the very beginning of September I'm the star, so you pay attention to me. That was the correct thing to do, very well though, you saw the look and you decided. On the board this morning we're going to have a bash at thinking about some targets, we're going to have a bash think about, how you think you've done so far? One of the two tasks that I've set you since we met in September, what are the two big tasks that we've concentrated on? One should be in your file already and it should be finished and the other one you're going to give to me today. Our passport and our diary Your passports and your graphs. There the two big pieces of work that we've done together so far, in a minute I'm going to give you a printed sheet We had to do, do jobs so you owe me ten minutes and normally when you come into my room you say I'm sorry I'm late. I'm sorry I'm late You don't look as if you mean it, sit down please because my lesson started ten minutes ago there's one over there Now in a minute I'm going to give you a printed sheet and it's going to ask you how well you think you're doing. Have you been able to complete the survey on belief, have you been able to get it done by a deadline. What does the word deadline mean? Let's have hands up, what does the word deadline mean? The time when it has to come in. Yes, the time when it has to come in, the day I say I want to collect it, now you might need to say to yourself, oh dear, Mrs said the deadline was, have I met it? No, or yes I'm mega brilliant, yes I did meet the deadline. Now I'm going to help you with it and what I suggest we do this morning when I give you these sheets will you please write your name and today's date at the top of the sheet and I put the date on the board, and then can you please resist the temptation to start, start writing over the rest of the sheet until I've gone through it with you. You can certainly have a read but please resist the temptation to write on it. Right the sheets are coming round, when you get yours, your name on it and today's date on it please, that's all, I've already punched holes in it so it's ready to go in your file Now is there anyone who does not have one of these sheets, it says at the top year seven, module one, survey on belief. Is there anyone who does not have a copy in front of them? Please write your name and the date. The date is on the board Oh, we'll do that later that one, get you another one good, most people seem to of done that. If you have a look at the sheet you can see there are six sections and then on the right hand side there are two columns, one is headed up pupil the other is headed up teacher. In a moment when I've explained what each of these sections mean, I'm going to ask you to put your signature in the column says, that says pupil. Each time you think you have succeeded in accomplishing that task. Now when I sign my name that's what I do, they're my initials, that's all I need you to do. Now you might decide that you want to put, I don't know F B, Fred Bloggs like that, that's fine, you do not need to write your full name. A simple signature is fine, and then I, when I'm satisfied that I have seen that work in your file done in the way you say you've done it, I will sign the teacher column on your sheet Okay, let's start going down these six sections. Section one says, now for this everybody we're thinking about the survey you did in the form room, from which you did your graphs, saying to people do you believe in god, have you visited a place of worship, is everyone clear about the piece of work we're thinking about, speak to me. Yes Yes, good. I didn't do it You didn't do the class survey? Really because I was away You were away for all of it? In which case it would be pretty silly to fill that in wouldn't it? Pretty silly, because you haven't done that piece of work, so perhaps what you would like to do if you would like to follow it with us, then I will give you back, I think I might have your survey here, and you can at least see what we've been talking about and then on that we can write absent for this piece of work, does that make sense, good. Everybody else then, number, section one Can you collect information for use in a class Now we've got several ways of doing this, first of all, were you able to collect information for the class survey, whoever's fiddling with a pen please don't, it's driving me nuts. Could you collect information for the class survey? Were you able in other words to go round and talk to people to get their answers and record your answers on their grid, if you think yes you did do that, sign your name now, in section one, where it says survey. If you don't think you can do it, then I'd leave it blank if I were you, cos otherwise you're telling fibs aren't you? Who thinks they were able to collect information for the survey? Hands up, oh brilliant, boys you not sure? No Not sure, okay, hands down everybody. What are you not sure about? I didn't get all the names Right, so you had a problem getting everybody's name, what problem did you have? The same as Malcolm You had the same problem as Malcolm, so, would it be fair to sign that or would it be more sensible to leave it blank? Leave it blank Why? Because we didn't finish it Right, that makes sense, good, sensible. I, I, I, I did it, but I only missed out the two people that were away. Right, so, it wasn't your fault that they were away was it? So did you do the survey? Did it. So what you gonna do? Sign it. Brilliant, you're gonna sign it, brilliant. Right next part of section one,did you collect the information by the deadline which means were you able to complete it in your form time with your form tutor and bring it to the lesson so that you could start on the s on the graph. You have a think about it, if you think yes I did, I spoke to everybody, I got their answers and I was able to bring that sheet to Mrs lesson, sign it. Did you think mm, no, I had one or two names I left off, I was too busy doing something else, I was away, then you can't sign it can you? Because you did not meet the deadline and you've just told me that deadline means the day I said I wanted it. Everybody okay with that? Yeah Speak to me Yes I was away, but I completed it, so By the deadline? Sign it. Okay, third part did you collect the information after the deadline if you did, sign it. If you didn't, if you met the deadline leave it blank, only you know the answer to that. Next one I did not complete the survey not because people were away, if people were absent that's not your fault, what reasons might there be for you not completing the survey, hands up I didn't get time to go round all the people You didn't get time to go round to everybody, that's one, you were too busy chatting the girls up, yeah others I was away I was away, I, I was absent, so sign it. Any more I done most of them but I left the sheet at home in my coat. I did most of them but then I left the sheet at home, sign that bit. Right, yes, so you weren't able to complete it because you left the things at home, you weren't very well organized, okay, so sign that part. Shall I sign it, er cos I didn't get all the names? Yes, anybody else not sure, please don't write on your pencil case. Anybody else not sure? Okay, we've done section one, well done. Section two, oh big word here, collate. I can collate information and present the information as a table . What on earth do you think the word collate means? It's a very sort of secondary school type word isn't it? Is it to collect all the information you've got It does mean collect, sort of, er, you're talking to me everybody, it does sort of mean collect, anybody else? Collate means not only collect together but organize it. Do you remember the tallies we did? Yeah We were collating, so I can collate the information and present the information as a table, how many of you were able to do the tallies? Brilliant, sign it. Number three I can present information in graph form who's been able to do a bar graph? I've done a bit of one Who's been able to do a bar graph? Brilliant, sign it who did pictures to go with their bar graph? Sign it, so there should be two signatures in that little bit of number three. You did a graph and you did pictures, if you did the graph one signature, if you did pictures another signature and shall we say, what are we going to call pictures? What are we going to call that, illustrations, is the word, what are we going to say is acceptable as an illustration? Hands up, give me some suggestions no ideas Decorate them Decorated accounts for illustrated, pictures, patterns, colours, you filled in all the space, that's illustrated as far as I'm concerned. Did you work as a member of a group , now what do you think that means? Oops sorry, bash you on the bonce, no it's my album Did you work in a group? To do what? To do the graph Mm some people decided they were going to work as a, as a group on their table, to gather information and when you were doing the tallies last week, you helped each other didn't you, some of you helped, you were talking to one another to help make sure that you got the right number of tallies, if you worked with some other people to get the survey questions and do the tallies, sign it, if you did everything on your own, leave it blank is anyone not sure what to do there? I helped you. Oh I don't want the arguments of about who was helped, okay you carry on, you argue, that's alright number five, read it and then somebody tell me what it means. Read it, number five, and someone What tell me what it means, you've got some secondary school type words there as well it says has been co-operative and helpful in the classroom . Co-operative, have you worked with other people, as a team, as a pair, have you been pleasant and helpful, have you been a pain in the neck? Now if you think you have been pleasant and helpful, you've shared things with somebody, if they asked you a question you didn't bang them on the head, you helped, sign it now we come to the real sixty thousand point question, are you ready for this? Are you really ready for this? Yeah I'm not sure,has produced all homework, all homework on time if you think yes I have, sign it, if you think no I haven't, there's a bit sitting at home and I'm gonna give it in tomorrow, no you haven't have you? You haven't, if you've got it all in on time, you've brought it all to this and you haven't come out to me saying oh I'm really sorry can I bring it tomorrow, oh I really wasn't sure, oh Miss you know the graph we done where we were if it wasn't completed and we still bring it in can we write it down or? Well would you say then that you had finished the homework task on time? No You've answered your own question. Miss I didn't set a deadline for that though did I? Any more Andrew Miss I done it, but I left it at home. So, have you done it for the deadline? Have I got it in my hand today? You've answered your own question okay, you're doing well, now, on the board, can you all look at the board please, shh, lips together, er thank you, look at the board, not this bit, that's not for you, this bit, this is your bit this morning. Targets, give me another name for a target, hands up, another name for a target. Er, aim Aim, that's a good word, aim, more Achievement Achievement, I think you might say an achievement is when you reach the target, that's been an achievement, yeah. Another word for a target, we have aim, goal perhaps is one we could use. Yeah. Now at the bottom of your sheet, shh, shh, I, there are two boxes, one is for me to scribble in, the other one is for you to write neatly in, I'm the only one here who's allowed to scribble. I would improve this work by, in front of you this morning, most of you have got your graph. The bar chart that was the result of the survey we did you need to look at that piece of work and ask yourself a question, is this piece of work the best thing I have ever done? If the answer is no, then you need to think about how you could improve that piece of work, somebody is speaking now it's bad enough you owe me ten minutes if it's not the best piece of work you've ever done, why isn't it? Now have a look at the work now, hands up and see if you could tell me, just looking at your work, is there some way you could of improved it. If I said right you've got a second chance this morning, how could you improve that piece of work in front of you now. Handwriting. Handwriting, I could make my handwriting neater, larger, I could try joining my handwriting have the letters joined, some people are still more comfortable printing in year seven. Illustrations. Illustrations, I could put some illustrations in, I could use more, I could use colour, I could make more detailed illustrations, yes Spelling. Spelling, I could have improved this work by checking the spelling carefully with a dictionary. I could of improved this spelling by engaging my brain when I did my homework doing it on my lap in front of Neighbours. How else could you improve that piece of work? By colouring You could use far more colour, make it bright and cheerful, make it yell at me, come on Mrs mark me, I dare you. Erm you could of underline down by the bottom Did you underline the dates, titles? Did you put your name on it or have you done an anonymous piece of homework? Now, on the board I have listed some possible targets. You are going to decide now, by looking at your graph how you could improve this piece of work and I want you to write the target you decide on, it could be more than one, in the space that says I would improve this work by , you're to write that now please, off you go and while you're doing that let's get the register done, shh, shh shh, shh Sarah Here Miss Malcolm Here Miss Dawn Here Miss Shaun Yes Miss David Yes Rachael Yes Emma Yes Miss Emma Yes Miss Eleanor Yes Miss Ian Yes Miss Joanne Yes Miss Aaron Yes Miss Heidi Yes Miss Paul Yes Miss David Yes Miss Carl Yes Miss John Yes Miss Kylie Yes Miss Jodie Yes Miss Jonathan Yes Miss Sara Yes Miss Gemma Yes Miss Sabrina Miss Hannah Here Miss Andrew Here Miss Keith Here Miss Nick Here Miss Ann, Karen Here Miss Shaun Here Miss Has everyone done that then? Right Is that a word you want on the board? Concentration, here we go, okay Long word Long word, big word, secondary school word How do you spell demonstration Miss? It's on your chart Can I just write this on the wall, then I'll come back Right, pens down everybody then please, pens down who's feeling very brave this morning? Me You could live to regret this, hands down, hands down. Right, you're feeling very brave would you like to read out for us what your targets are Go on, big voice Not crossing out, spelling, getting my homework in on time, asking for help when I'm not sure and presentation They're biggies to go for, how many was that altogether? Five Five, ooh five, and you've got witnesses now and it's been recorded. Who else is feeling brave? Who else is feeling brave? Oh suddenly we're all cowards, go on go for it, what's yours? Big voice More tidy illustrations, and better handwriting I could underline my titles. Right so you're only ask that you didn't underline and that your illustrations could be better as well and the handwriting is a bit spidery, right, good, brave, right, go on I could have wrote better Oh shout at me I'm a bit deaf over here I could have wrote better, I could of done much better illustrations Right, so you could of written, when you say you could of written better, what do you mean? Hand write better So you could, the handwriting could of been neater, fine and then you want to pay some attention to your illustrations in the future, that's good, come on then shout at me, it's the only time you're allowed. None of the crossing out, handwriting,org organizing my homework so it is handed in on time So homework hasn't, always in on time, okay that's very brave cos you know that's the death penalty hand, having hand, what do I do when, when you don't hand homework in? I'm gonna jump up and down on you aren't I? Throw us out the window Out the window, absolutely, right come on then, shout, shh Do better illustrations and colour it, colour it in a lot neater Right, so, better pictures, more colour, good, one more I put down more concentration And getting my homework in on time Yeah Mm yes, well I think they sound like good targets, is, has anyone looked at their work and said I worked my socks off for that, I could not have improved it, I've left that section blank so everybody thinks they could of improved that piece of work, good, that's what this is all about, getting better. Right, will you please put your assessment sheet, which is what we have done and your graph together and put them in the centre of the table, at the end of the lesson I'm going to have those in centre of the table no I don't want those, they go in your file. Ah, I don't need you to come out, put the things I'm going to have in the centre of the table Right, let's have you quiet again then, shh shh, I want you to listen shh, I want you to listen Big boys will you read that first one, big boys, loudly, I want everyone to hear it. Now, sit down, pen down please, you want to listen, now to do this, no fidgeting pens should be down and you should be concentrating there are going to be three pieces of writing done by people your age and a bit older, that you are going to listen to. Later you are going to have an opportunity to do some writing similar to the pieces you have heard, however, if you have been fidgeting and not concentrating, you won't know what to do big boys. I wonder why people are here on earth. I wonder why they haven't burnt. I wonder what is the point of living. Why are we talking, taking and why are we giving. These are the questions to the puzzled men, man. Why the world's here, why it began. Why are there wars and why do we fight. Why are there things wrong and why are things right. These ultimate questions have puzzled us so, what are the answers does anyone know? Why is there living and why is there dying, why is some people laughing and why is some, some people crying. Why some countries rich and some countries poor, what is this thing life and what's in it for us and what's it all for. Is there a heaven up in the sky and wh why, where do we all go when we die Thank you Paula Thank you, thirteen Thank you, and that's written by a thirteen year old pretty good ah, let's have a male voice amongst all of this. Get yourself here big boys and that one. If I ruled the world everyone would sing and shout, war and bombs are the things I would throw out. Little children need to starve no more as I would give them a big food store. A house for everyone to live in is something else I would give them. Rain and cold weather would be sent away I would order it to be a hot sunny day. Christmas, Christmas would be twice a year so we could have lots of good cheer. There's lots of things I wouldn't like to do if I ruled the world how about you ? And who wrote that? Justine eight. Eight, thank you eight I believe in love, it comes from above, I believe in Santa Claus, every year he does his chores. I believe in fairies, they flutter like canaries I believe in make believe and I believe in what do you believe ? You've had two and a bit examples, a thirteen year old with their questions about life, what's it all for, who put us here and what on earth did they put us here for. An eight year old, if I ruled the world, if I was in charge this is how I would organize things and then and I believe, what I believe in. What I want you to do between now and the end of the lesson, ah, wait for it, in your rough books, ah I want you to start writing down ideas of the things that are important to you, but before we do that, let's just have a few starters on the board, let's have some hands up. Put your hand up and give me an idea of some of the things you think are important what do you believe I believe do you Yes Okay, so would it be fair to say some people would want to put that down? I believe in god are there any other things, what do you believe? I believe that Mark Hall is the best school in Harlow Yeah Yeah No Well okay, some people were a bit iffy about that What else do you believe in? Shh Steven doesn't believe in anything shh well you're silent Being silent Is nothing important to you, don't be smart with me is nothing important. Is there nothing you would like to organize, is there nothing you would like to change about the world, the planet, think People don't have enough food So what would, how would you like to say that? How can you I believe if, we make an effort we can give people food. Did you get this, by, by the way did you get the information yesterday about collecting the bar codes? One and a half million One and a half million saves a six year old little boy's life in a London hospital. I believe everybody in Mark Hall is capable of achieving that target. There's my box see if you can fill it. Okay let's go back to the I believe, what other things would you like to alter to sort out? I believe the children should have their way once in a while Once in a while, once in a while once, no once, I'm not buying that at all. I believe children, I'm not, I don't like writing this, children er should have, say it again Have a fair trial er a fair trail now and er, no, a fair trial now and again trial or a fair try? Trial trial Trial of what? Always, a fair trial now and again A fair trial now and again Every day No, no No, every day, every day Once er, any more, shh, shh, I'm not writing every day, if you want to alter it you might need to Children should be able to drive Yes What did he say? Children should be able to drive What did he say? He said I believe children should be able to drive, I think we are now getting Yeah, yeah into the realms of fantasy erm just shh, shh, I won't add any more I won't add any more to the board because I think you're starting to get the idea, but one or two others I want you to think about, I believe animals should not be experimented upon for make-up, I believe everybody should be treated with respect. That seems reasonable doesn't it, for a Wednesday it seems reasonable. I believe I believe Mrs when she says she'll jump up and down on my head if I get my homework in late. I believe children shh, should not be abused, I believe teachers should not be abused, mm. Now in your rough books please, start listing all things that you would like changed that you believe are right, that you believe Shh, shh go on now, start writing How long have you got to do this? Well I It's a heck of a time isn't it to let How many of you are involved in doing it? It takes But it's not your job then to start really so why, why does it go to the next and, so, so these are clear words What, what the aim Yes, you're never gonna get to college, you're never gonna get A, you're never gonna get your A levels No, no, it's the necessity before, you know, the university of life is a great teacher, you know, but erm take it while you need it, but in the meantime erm there's a great deal more out there. Mm And while we're on about it why haven't I seen you somewhere oh make my I always think this is February Yes being ill, come back to work until he's So, so, when Erm Friday I knew yesterday morning yes and what, what have you got? Those who you're going to I know that when the person who was doing this it wasn't going to be appropriate Yeah that's why it got probably Mm, it might be that she's got Then when It's daft isn't it, yeah How many have you got girls? One One, what is it, it'd better be a good one pollution, drug abuse, theft, murder erm the way you're treated by adults, the way we treat one another, equality, no racism, violence, riots, everybody should have a right to an education, everybody should have the right to have their, their teeth filled when they need it, and teachers deserve more pay and more , it's only for instance one no he left erm he left about two years ago, he's at which I think is that way He must of left just after I did Yeah and then she left I think he works part time in a sixth form college there's nothing he can get out of it No that's right, but erm, if you want a coffee No that's alright Shh, shh, erm I can hear squealers, I believe squealers are working Miss David A course but I know that quite often they whenever they hear about they automatically no, not in the least, good, fine, that's lovely, there's no, it's not a pardon Er, judging by the noise I can hear some people have finished, some people have extremely short statements of about what they think is important and some people have got no statements. Who's got five different things they think they are important, they would like to change, they would like to stay the same, who's got more than five, more than five? Not many, hands down, not enough. Planners out Miss are we doing this? Miss Yes this is brilliant my goodness, you come to school and you're doing something brilliant, we can't have that up to fifty, my goodness, you'll be working for a fortnight No, let David, he, Right planners, now according to me this is for Thursday, next Thursday week t week one Thursday so homework for Thursday finish writing a list er whoever's giggling will you calm down of things you believe are important do this in rough and I think we'd better underline the next bit, bring it to the lesson now, quite seriously if you have only managed to get five or six items at the moment on your list that you think are important, that's not enough, you really do need to be going for a minimum of ten, and if you can't then the next piece of work that we're going to do in the lesson next week is going to be quite difficult. I'm going to bring in some illuminated medieval books for you to have a look at, because what you're going to do is to write this out in best on special paper using illuminated letters and if you're very good we will try to get them laminated so that we can keep them as an example of what year seven students can produce as their best work, to say to everybody, hey look at this, this is very good, now we can't do that if I give you a sheet of A four paper and you manage to fill less than a quarter of that space, so you're going to need a minimum of ten different things that you would like to say you think are important, you believe are important, you believe they're valuable and your homework over the next week is to finish that list if you want it to rhyme, well yes you can work on it to make it rhyme, if you want to have what we call rhyming couplet,er just one moment I haven't said clear away. I have not said clear away, it is not the end of the lesson and some of you have not worked hard enough to make the end of the lesson now if you don't want to make the whole poem rhyme, what you might want to do is to put two lines together at a time and have those rhyming, paired rhymes, rhyming couplets, you can do that. And what you might need to start thinking about as well is how could you illustrate some of these, already around you in the room, going up, work from year nine where they have started writing that as a complaint to god, moaning about Hurricane Andrew, about earthquakes and floods and so on and they've decided that they're going to illustrate the work they're doing with these paper cuttings of disasters and problems in the world, there's one up here about a gorilla that's been taken from the wild and is in captivity in London Zoo and they said that they think it's wrong. You need to have a think during the next week about how you can illustrate the lists that you're drawing together, are you going to use newspaper cuttings? Are you going to do your own drawings? Are you going to do photographs? What are you going to do? If you've said you've, that you think you believe whales and dolphins should not be hunted then perhaps you can find a photograph showing those creatures swimming in the open ocean, something to think about. Are there any questions about that homework? Is there anyone who doesn't understand what they have got to go home and do? Are you sure? Speak to me Yes Okay, right, one person from each table, will you please bring me the homework graph and the sheet that you filled out, the assessment sheet. One person from each table yes, thank you are there any more? Right can one person from each table please bring me the red files Boys can I have your red files please What was that? Was that one of your I believes? What was that? Er, right, shh shh er right people, shh er you might find that once you start thinking about what you actually believe, it gets quite complicated I just want you to listen to this. Dear god, everything is so wrong, look, it took you six days to make the world, but does it say in the bible that it took you fifteen days to design it, oh no you just got up and decided to make the world. When you saw what a disaster you had caused, you could of started again and taken some time, oh sorry I forgot that's not godlike, you probably didn't want to know or is it that you enjoy what you made, a sort of entertainment, better than Home and Away, watching wars and diseases and things. Here are but three mistakes of your career, you would of at least think entering the world would be safe enough, but even that has its dangers. You could be born disabled, diseased or dead. If your so called parents decided to have an abortion that's it, you're history, you never got a chance or a choice. A nice night's sleep seems like a nice change, but nightmares have habits of popping up, once when I was five I had a dream that my friends and I were being ripped apart and eaten by a giant, now when the time comes to go into that great big C D tea room in the sky, could you change something? What have drowning, suffocating, bleeding and being run over by a steam roller got in common? They're all painful Could our bodies glow red when we only have a day left so we could all sit down and wait comfortably and then when we snuff it we could just disappear . And it goes on. Now some of you were nodding there and some of you were smiling, it might be that you actually would quite like to say you know that I believe it's wrong for people to be born disabled, handicapped. That year nine student has got quite a lot to say, has written a very nice letter of complaint to god, bending god's ear, say just one minute god. You need to have a think about those things as well. You did very well this morning, will you quietly stand. Okay one table two table David wait up I'll be erm I'll be absolutely I'm sorry but the dreaded lurgy so erm I'll do my best. Erm can I just go shapes and colours. And that's effort we're going to do them tonight. So first of all I'm going to do a triangle of mixed and erm and the red foliage compliments it. And this is the berberis the purple berberis as you know. Wouldn't stand up would it. It's been awfully hot to try to keep decent flowers and foliage grey, and I've sprayed it with water and I don't think it's entirely satisfactory. Now do our best. Ooh these were lovely just now gardens. If you want us to answer any questions, perhaps you'll er you'll tell us. plant somewhere. Right, now when I've cut it it all curved the right way . All these bits, it's having to go the other erm I'm so glad you asked us this evening because we do need some practice. We've been in flowers most of our lives but not demonstrating, which we're finding a bit, a little bit er different. Erm you know the don't you? Er I had this in soak all night because it, it dries up quickly. And er then it seems to keep quite a long time if er if you do that. This has a lovely , but er I think I'm going to put it in the back because my er arrangement is rather heavy, and I don't want it to fall over. We had er er quite a few catastrophes today with the flowers. And er coming here I found that I hadn't er put any of my vases in, so I had to go back again . This is one of the purple . It's tree really. But it's so lovely just to have . How could you condition that? you mean the bath. Just in the bath . it's in the bath. Yes i if it's too young it won't er keep. This. But just now I think it's just about right, for er just about right for er using. And here's a bit we want. I'm not going to need any flowers am I? I have some er there's some more gladioli. I don't know what they're called these just butterfly . I er thought they were a bit bigger than Yes, I think so . Mm I think they're . Just give me some cos we can't go without can we? er flowers I bought at an auction. Erm it was . And it wasn't too expensive. But it, I find it useful for large arrangements. I can just put them down, but I don't awfully like gladioli when they down I don't think they look like . Some more? Yes. Now these aren't coming out very well but they er whoever wins it will very thorny. Do you want? always remind me of Spain Mm. where we er went in the summer and erm lots of lovely geraniums and all the . Compliment the sunshine don't they? Now Want an outline don't we? Lovely colour aren't they? Which one's this Annie? Well it's hazel wood. Norma grows chrysanths and, but she usually knows the names of all of them. I think you'll find the Pennine one it's stiff and horrible. Whereas if you buy it from Yes. you know, the flower stalls, That's right. left in an oasis for all these I can show you it's also having I've some nice red carnations which I shall They're er not fringe fringed are they? Not very well fringed. I keep this all the ti got some you see I'm trying to group the flowers together because I think they give more effect that way. And er when you have a er a kaleidoscope, you get all sorts of shapes together don't you? It's difficult to get a kaleidoscope nowadays. Toy ones anyway. What about those? Oh I didn't tell you who they were. I don't that I hadn't forgotten that I gave a I wrote it down. Bahamas . They look like Bahamas don't they?been so hot today if you don't mi er and it makes you feel you know your age, when er it's this hot weather. My er my friend you'll ask how old she is anyway. Mind you she's ninety two she er she says I can't fasten my beads. I can't er fasten my shoes. I can't fasten my bra, unless I turn it round. An but she says it's . What a sensible person. Think that's through . What's the name of that lily please? Erm Pixie. Pixie? Yes. It's a lovely one isn't it? We don't want much more in there do we?the red one, sorry? We don't know the name of that one either do we? Oh Doris the names . There's so many aren't there? Well that I can remember belongs to Mary but I'm afraid they're not very strong. Are they? I just put those in. And that will do till Have you got a triangle? And just to er whet your appetite and I'm a basket of cherries there. I'll just in I'm just going to start this evening, with Chase an Object Round the Hedgerow. A piece of oak which my husband has mounted, so it's freestanding. Some stones which are very good for texture, a piece of sheep shoe wood from Chatsworth Park I picked up. Try saying that after a few gins. And some which gives a effect. That'll have to move. I sort of go scouting when, you know when we're out anywhere, seeing what I can find. Much to my husband's disgust. So I'm going to start an outline, hopefully asymmetrical. This erm silver birch? Petula? It has some lovely catkins on it just now. This I have boiled to condition it. It has been standing in water all day, and it has been well scraped before it came out this evening. So this is a tree stump we have here, and we found some mice on the way as well. Did y did you notice the mice on the Yes, I didn't make them I er I've had a little go but I'm not very good at it. Okay. They are, yes. I got them at a craft fair at farm. colour this is not going to go where I want it to go. But it will. So that should freeze them, and this is the new shoots round from the bottom. If it looks rather large, we encourage you to do them large. Cos we're still trainee demonstrators. We take it again, erm I think we start in October time, at Oxford. We never know when to keep quiet, do we? You know, we say, yes go on handy. We'll go. Are you coming to Pondsfield? Yes Yes we are. Yes. Yes. Well we, well we do a different one at Pondsfield. Sorry? We do a different demonstration at Pondsfield. I think it, is it this month or is it next? Yes. Erm Yes I thought it was Yes it is this month. Yeah. to go there. See what we can do with a hedgehog. Put it down a little bit we have an asymmetrical . May be a bit laid back but Get rid of mice. It's not very big, is it? It doesn't like the No it doesn't like something. Sit. the mice's nest out there I have some ferns. They might not grow round here very well in the hedgerows, but er if you go down to Cornwall or Brittany, they're lovely down there. My husband will never stop so I can go and get some, you know,car keeps going. It comes from an old cottage garden just round where I . But I think I'm supposed to say having . The meaning many. And the are the spores on the back of the ferns. Which are the seeds of them. And they condition quite well. You know I mean they've got the turn around the spores on the back. I've also boiled them just, you know, to be sure of them. Now as was saying earlier on, that she's been with flowers all her life, well I haven't. I started about twelve years ago. And a lady you know very well she's not here tonight. I was going to say, I won't mention her name in case she's run out of. But, er of course, Pam I went to her classes er about ten years ago. I started flower arranging about twelve years ago. I had two years with Pam. Then I moved to a different teacher to get some more, you know, experience. Because you do learn more from different teachers as you go along. And then I've worked at . I did the City and Guilds at . . These are er long stick leaves . It's true . It's where I've er formed its centre. Again aren't they a size? Mm. I thought they would sort of er pass as hedgerowey leaves. And that's er how and I have demonstrated because she hasn't got transport of her own. She finds it a little bit difficult. So er we demonstrate together. You know. And er so we travel to And er, Plantain, the ordinary one Yeah. from the hedgerow again. They last quite well. I did get some seed from Botanical Gardens, of their Plantain. But er I didn't manage to grow it. Oh lovely, you know, some nice big leaves for, flower arranging. My husband puts these on the compost heap when he gets his eye on them. I nursed one last year for Newark Show. I thought oh you know you're always short of large leaves. For the base. So I was nurturing this one in the greenhouse. And I went down one day. It's supposed to be my greenhouse. And it was missing. I said, what's happened to the plantain? He said, ooh do you mean that weed? It's on the compost heap. It was, it was coming on lovely. I said I was going to have . And that's what happened to that. Some foxgloves. I've only got two. And I'm inundated in the garden with them. You know. They to start with. At least that's where I think they come from. And this year I've got them, they're a good seven foot tall in the garden. they've been marvellous, haven't they? To say they're a wild flower or classed as a wild flower. And the markings inside are, you know they're . So I'll put those in there. Get good keep of the time here don't we ? Erm some poppies. Another shape I think you'll find in hedgerows. Alice. Mine are just starting to come out. They're a big red poppy this one. Mine are the pinky purply one. These are you know really magenta red. The mice get into those, they'll be a bit tipsy. won't they? some pheasant feathers. lovely markings, haven't they? Think you might find some of those in a hedgerow? Different texture again. you can never find any going, can you? Oops. You sort of learn as you go on. You don't put too much stuff in till you get your flowers in. come out as I tell you. Single chrysanthemum. They're the flowers chrysanths and I say, they come from Holland. The ones I grow at home er well they are named. They are mostly Ryes from Moor. that I had and I show them. Although lately if I'm flower arr er showing at the yeah flower arranging at shows I've then got time to show the flowers. I'm caught you know betwixt and between, which do I like the best. We've put enough in this floral fiesta. I don't know whether we'll get a you know, any places or not. But we put in to go anyway. Someone once told me, aim high, she says. So we have a go. Which ? So you you're not supposed to get it, you know, it's er we'll take the leaves off. We've put in for the club entry and we're just waiting to hear, you know, if we've been lucky or not. Or rather Well we've been on to and they don't seem to do an awful lot. You know, I was, rather surprised . I'm going to recess these a little bit. In the middl in the centre. We haven't had a lately have we? These I've boiled again to , you know it brings the head down, and I think it does make th the flowers last longer. Put about stem in boiling water and er, let it stand for about thirty seconds. Now this is for the dog daisies that you get in er hedgerows. I haven't said that have I yet? As I grow chrysanths we have to do erm I'm not getting the right word. A survey it's a at the college you know, and er and they did er carnations and I've done, the chrysanths about growing them. So I thought well I might as well do something, I know a little about. So we did that. And you've got er I've got some notes here and I've got them covered up with something else. That's clever, isn't it? Nice and cool, the white and green, isn't it? Mm. Now for the that out and I'll see what I've written down for this Oh yeah er see Sue lost it erm well it's a canine meaning, you know, the rose erm the dog rose. But, instead of that digress a little but because I didn't think you'd like the dog roses. So No. I've taken the thorns off, and I've defoliated them. And I've also boiled the ends as you can see there. It's that one. Now I had a right job with them. I was trying to tell them it wasn't so hot yesterday and then coming out and out you know. So me and got the, the ice packs out of the freezer. And I drop kept dropping into the buckets to cool the water down. It was terrible hot yesterday. It was. Yes. And I haven't got an awful lot of shade at home, you know. No. So er I was having a rare old time. We were dropping the ice packs in to try and keep the . Are they hot? I sometimes, if I can get the new floribunda roses, but er there's none in the market, and we got these. Yes. Yes. I've got an introduction to the wholesale market. But you can't buy an awful lot, you know. Erm because that you want more than your bits and pieces. Right. For function roses you're okay but er a lot of things real go to erm, a place, well it, it's . It's just on the outskirts of . Er, it used to be called Joe , but he's died and Woods have got it now. And they're very helpful. Now you say you like your gardens open. I was going to bring a, a poster for you and I've forgot it. What with Anna running me up and down the countryside. They, they've got gardens open in Calverton on the twenty fifth of July. There's six gardens open, for a pound. It's er a garden walkabout. And it's open two o'clock till six. If anybody'd be interested. It's for the preservation society. And the last one going in. Now goes missing, we'll have to give her a shout. Ooh she's she's there. what she thought she was missing. So you shapes and textures from the hedgerow. Is there anything quick and easy. I hope. It, it hasn't been so far because I'm left right behind a background. Erm right then. Erm the lovely with the terracotta, aren't they? Er. Yes. But it er er, do you want this ? Er, I got this . and I used them this year and they er I've got quite a lot of Right furry I was er hoping to get I don't think these'll come out somehow. The lady in the shop was very good. I looked right through them all and er however. This is er a quick thing you can do. When you get home. We use this for all the Egyptian things we do. It's very good. That's a lovely one. Look at that. I think it's Enchantment. But it's, it's quite pink for Enchantment, isn't it? If it is Enchantment. Where did your pot come from? Sorry? The pot? Where did the pot come from? Er. yes it was. I've got one or two that came from abroad but no this was Liverpool, Yeah. on the road er They've got quite a good selection now. Haven't they? Now we'll just give it a little bit of lift. I'm going to add these canes. Canes. put that one . And put that one in the top. These were bought at er I think you can get some in the, in the florist. I'll just do a I don't know if any more petals will last. There I think that's Now. my daughter's looking for a actually. So. I've had to, this cupboard's because it's got cutlery and the plates and that, so I've just put a piece of er material over it. To hide them. And I'm going to put two pieces of garden cane in. just hold the basket for me. I think. Small garden cane It's made it rather heavy with er, the material on it as well. That's better. Just stay there. Mm. So this is going to be an A back asymmetrical. Triangle. I've got a plastic container here to raise the oasis on the saucer, up a little bit because it's quite deep inside. So er It makes it easier to find the saucer if it's raised. I'm going to start with the outline of , from the garden. Which has again been boiled. I think it's a lovely light foliage isn't is? Mm. So refreshed. And I thought well I I'll do this with all summer flowers. I've got this. It's grown on a, a north facing wall so bit, bit more now I think if it got more sun. You know. The golden foliages need a lot of sun. Or the elderflower. Do you make elderflower wine or champagne? Mm. Yes. Have you I've done it for my grandchildren this year. Oh. I was going to say have you got any with you? Well, I made some ooh a few years ago. And my husband at the time was making er wine, you know. And he said, you've put far too much sugar in that. You've put far I said I'm just following this recipe. You know. And he was right. I did put far too much sugar in it cos it all exploded. Kep kep kept my busy, you know. That's another one gone mum and that's another one gone . They were in the garden shed. And I was just saying I'm going to have to go down there. What happened then? Erm. Oh I had then. I've told you about grandchildren. I've just had two presented to me in the last eight months. I've got a granddaughter and a grandson. The granddaughter I look after because my, my daugh youngest daughter's gone back to work. And she's called Jordan. Spelt J O R D A N. And she, she's eight months old now. You forget how many hands a baby has, don't you? You know, you get out of practice, and there it starts. She's found that my glasses didn't seem to be right. So her hands were up and they were off before I knew where they were. And then she's, you're trying to feed her and the, the dinner's all over the place. So now we wrap her in a tea towel so you know her hands are under cover. Erm It's erm I think. I got it given to me so er if you think it's a different one you can tell me. So when you get a lot of things given, you know, I never say no. but you don't always get the right name, do you? Do she really did it on me well it was yesterday I had her. I was changing her nappy for her. Well she started flopping along the floor on her back. And you, you know she, she can go at some pace. So I started changing her nappy for her and she decided she was going to take off. It was like hanging on to a wriggly eel. You know? She was trying to move. So the next time I thought, No madam you're on the settee on your changing mat, and er I've got you. And the other one Aaron. A little boy. He lives in London. My eldest daughter she works down there. And when she said she was going to have a baby, rather a surprise at the new year time. So we said, well what would you, you know, can we get something? Well they're living away. What can we get you for the baby? So she said, oh two bedside cabinets and a drop-leaf table. So. I says to her, well what you know what can you do with that? Well you can help me to cope with him, she said, you know. So she's got the two bedside cabinets but not the drop-leaf table. Er now this is grown in Calverton. We have a small nursery there. And he grows them in wind tunnels. He hadn't got a big selection but I went down er I was going to use stocks. was going to use stocks and er oh gladioli that was it. And when we went to the market they didn't have any on as I say, Anna went to and got her gladioli. So Jord Jordan and I had a walk down to the mark the nursery yesterday morning. Before it got too hot. seven nurseries at Calverton. Did, did you know that we have one there now? Quite industrious . if we get packets sent The butchers If you get one thing set in your mind what you're going to do, and you know, you go off to get it, and then er if you don't manage it, then you have to start again. This is erm the mallow, the shrub. This is the rose and I've also got hidden in the box somewhere. You might be able to some of it because it grows ever so easily you know. If anybody wants some I've got, quite a good specimen. There's quite a few at the back now, isn't there? The really deep purply one as well. Yeah. Oh pinching the pink and whites. This is a paler one a bit pink. This . I've left a shoot on there. Take all the flower heads off if you want it to grow. If you don't all the strength goes into the flowers. These have got or haven't you? And I've got some . Got this in the garden as well. It came down from Scotland. My mother had it in her garden. So it think it likes the water very much. Give you a little chance to talk and get, catch up with all your news or something I hope you're not I find it isn't it?sweet peas. Mm. I'm going to put these in some because like Anna says you know if you flowers you have more impact with them. Now these are grown on my neighbours fence. I did ask. They're grown on my neighbours fence and it comes on to my path. And she doesn't like them. for her to have them in the house. So I, ooh you know, could I have some? And I did have some of the as well so. I will be short of a little bit of blue so you have your kaleidoscope. There. blue. Well they say the more you pick them the more they come isn't it? So let's hope they're right. And this you know sort of more flowers on as well. I bought some of them er from the show last year. Entered show last year. I got second prize. I was quite pleased with that you know because it's er Good show mm. It is, yes. I think you have to round all your friends and family you know Nice Yorkshire flowers. Nice there's some of them that look as though they're double. I've had the dreaded cough as well Haven't you had it in Southwell yet? If, if you get it if you get it everyone has it I think I'm doing a little bit what we did last night Excuse me. Bit short of colour. And just to give it a centre. It's . I've had it thirty years in my garden. Think could have been done with tree but er So a pretty basket of summer flowers. For a different I'm going to That's right. I've got some candles just to give it some height. Erm I'll tell you about the er while I'm doing some . Erm we call it the cherry chucker . Erm because when I was a little girl my brother and I we used to flowers because my mother sold flowers and we would have to deliver them. To our regular customers. And er we didn't always remember where they lived. And er, oh this is the . Lovely green. And er and so, explaining to my brother where, or trying to get out of him where the, the customer lived. Erm he'd say, you know the row of houses where er where they have all things in the bay windows that I er I er an Alsatian dog or a an aspidistra or a, a cherry chucker. And the ch the cherry chucker, the ones with little girls holding Oh yes. cherries in them. Ever since then all these kind of er So it's now a family joke. It's lovely. This room is so fresh looking. And the You know the white And that's just nice just now isn't it? And of course we've got this I have a little dog and she loves to roll in this. So I have to tie it up. And the cat . day we had a cat in our garden and er my dog isn't as big as a cat. It's a Yorkshire terrier. And the dog barged through th the cat barged through the hedge. And I thought, I hope the dog doesn't follow because it's a main road. And it sat at the other side of the gate as if to say you can't get me now. And er luckily she didn't follow it, but the cat did get and go away. And er a car came by at that moment. I shut my eyes. But it was er it was fine. I think I a bit put it in the back now. lovely shape This is for orchids and this is the the fern that comes with them, which is quite useful. How do you condition the Oh I just boiled the ends a bit and erm and then put it in deep water. And I, I have sprayed it this week because it's been so hot . So I sprayed it with a fine spray and it's kept very well, hadn't it? But er I think this sun will brown it, don't you? Brown it quite a lot. I'd just like one I've er orchids. I think they employ little men to twist them together. I was in Singapore some years ago and erm when we, well when we landed, all the ladies were given a an orchid. It was rather nice. And erm when I came away again I brought some orchids with me. And for an armful I paid thirty shillings. I thought that was very to have turned round . Lovely colours in these. .Some of them are. It was lovely to see them growing in er Singapore. And we had some friends there and one day one of them rang me up and she said, could, could we come quickly we've got a, a monitor lizard in the garden? Well I'd never seen a monit she didn't know how to . I said, alright we'll come and on the way . I said, what have you done about it? She said, I've hit with a sweeping brush. So I said, alright shut the door and we'll come. And er when we got there there was a little chit-chat about that. It was a tiny lizard but not er not that you would want to hit with a sweeping brush. And while we were, while we were there we had some invitations to, to dine out with well it was my daughter's and we went and had a meal with them and they were quite taken back by er they lived in this little which originally I had thought was a was a er a poultry house. It looked like a poultry house. And er when we got inside, it was spotlessly clean and shiny. It was lovely. And er all the children went out while we had a meal. I couldn't see any clothes about anywhere. Just a lot of furniture in there but there was nothing hung about you know. And so er we had this meal which was curry. Chicken curry. And er it was lovely and we were enjoying it until I pulled out the whole chicken's head. Knife in it. So I'm afraid that did put me off . Yes that did put me off. So I stuck to all the side dishes, which were they were very nice. Cucumber and all sorts of exotic things that er . However it was lovely staying there and it was lovely weather . Here's a tip rather nice. Shame to cut them down now isn't it? I've got one or two pinks. These are the pinks. They smell gorgeous too. Just to fill in. quite high. Last year we were going to er a show at er and I was doing a modern arrangement and er, we were in Norman's van. And one of my er had a, a just a tiny flaw in it. And I said to Norman have you got anything in here that would cover it up? He said I've got a frog. I said I don't think . So er as we was going along this ladybird flew on to my hand, didn't it? Well I thought about it. I looked at it. I thought, How do you kill a ladybird? So I didn't. So I went off to the er at the show. I just er put the one loose into er into the top where the judge wouldn't see it I hoped. And I won a first prize so I said,. So it shows you never should kill a ladybird. Make a bad saint wouldn't I?pretty. more foliage. Quite nice and in the at . Because they go in a caravan. a secret but I don't know whether I dare tell you. But er I was with a gentleman friend. I don't know whether She said, let me know . you might as well go to bed with a Mills and Boon. I don't mind who knows You know I think I'm Old flames isn't it? It's got a star. Look. I think everyone's finding er Alright? I think I might put those in. Somebody told me I had . I don't I . Mrs always does the most clever . Oh yes. I've forgotten. Oh Oh yes. . Yes. Yes. And er there'll be white while . Someone hanging up their secateurs . Yes. I should say, Well thank goodness for that. You're the twelfth one . I know. But we weren't the twelfth choice. No doubt we were the next day. Now there we have our Now you have to have what a European style. So we're going to finish this evening with a European style. I have two margarine cartons in here. And a Fuchsia which is called Superstar. I just plant some people own. And it just fills it in. I think a plant rather than foliage or whatever. So. We're going to do a European hedgerow style. But for the height . And the purple. And it's a little bit different from other flowers. This has the from the top down, doesn't it. I think the heat's got to the greenery. Well it's, it looks like it's been cooking. I'll scrape it. I just have to this crescent there. buy flowers you know. By the time she gets to the den she's always got another ready . You think, where's she got those from? You know she didn't buy those while we were out. football. And this you know like this style you can make it small or large as you like, and you can come out to the sides as well. Give it extra length. It's based on the high , and the verticals and you don't have a point. Where all your flowers come from the same point. While we were at we went down to er Oakham. To a day school. With two Danes come over from Belgium. To show us how to do the hedgerow and the European round table design as well. Well we thought, well you know, we c we can do a bit. I'm just thinking I've got these on the wrong horizontal scale. I think this is the Connecticut King I'm going to have to make a corner there. Now it's very easy to do this, you know. Don't be frightened to have a go at it. I did er a day school. Taught it myself, you know. At er Woodroffe. I started doing the teacher's cause because I thought I'd like to teach. And of course they closed all the night classes, didn't they? Erm I think that one will . Now what I want to do is er I have to set this you know and find a venue to go to. But with all these grandchildren and what have you, I don't seem to have any time. And camping We've just come back from Cornwall and it was very wet. peninsula. You've got the Atlantic on both sides and er it's lovely if you've got the weather, you know. Really lovely. But we didn't have the weather. And in fact one nine o'clock back to the tent. Got a tent that we sit in and cook in. And erm we got there and I says to my husband I says, oh, I says er, are you sure that tent's safe? You know it's battling about a bit. So erm blue again because I er a bit short on blue for the kaleidoscope. Er it's not the is it? Yes. I didn't want to say that. This is from the cottage garden again. From you know round . Oh short of blue, could, could I have a little bit? Erm and now getting back to Cornwall. sayin saying to my husband says, well I don't think the tent sounds very safe you know. It keeps flapping about and that. I thought, oh dear, so we got to bed by this time, and we lay, and we just couldn't get to sleep for the noise the tent was making. So he says, might be a good idea t to you know put the van in front of the tent to break the wind. So I was laid out in the back of the van on the bed and he's driving down this field to put the tent, because it had little er bits you know where it's marked out for you to camp, and I'm driving around in the back saying, yes you've, you've just missed the fence there and you know . I can't see where we're going because I didn't have my glasses on. So it was quite there you know. Erm Yes. I got it from I bought it at er Blooms. In Norfolk. So I'll keep the yellows together. And another theme of the European is the grouping of the colours. I don't know how I'm going to because I've got some peculiar colours. But I'm having the yellow. I think that is the nearest I could get to the orange. You know to be the opposite to the purple. If you get what I mean. As it's opposite in the on the colour wheel, isn't it? Now these are little ones I've grown in the greenhouse myself. They haven't been fed properly, so they're not very big. But it's a sort of purply pink so they'll go down here. And you know to cut between the on these. Yes. We'll start to take the water out. Anna didn't tell you and she's the expert on flower arrangement. And I think that ties in nicely with the pink in the . Some more yellow. It's . And I like these you know you still want to come in. I don't want to go out to much to the side there. I always later. Now as I was picking the ivy for this, I've got a cherry a standard cherry tree and the starlings get on my fence and they queue up to get on that cherry tree, you know you can hear them chattering away. If you go out shoving them off they go up on to the roof of the house, and as soon as you turn your back they're back again. Well these had got, these cherries had been growing where they couldn't see them you know. nice of cherries this morning. But I don't think they were quite ready yet. You know they were nice and red but er these birds and I've, I've got them covered, but it's quite tall so I can't keep it all covered. But they can beat me to it every time. And they weren't the least bit frightened. I'll just put a little bit wispy in the back because when I was in Hans' class, the best triangle I ever did was lovely, really pleased with it and it collapsed didn't it? Because I hadn't put in the back. A little bit of the juniper shape and texture. Going into there. The only colour's the blue you know but it's er I always make so noise with anybody's paper. isn't it. Something else you don't see much of these days isn't it? I was brought up in the country, on a farm you know, so I'll try and sort of make you know equal amount of flowers in each, and then er it can be halved. In the raffle. If you want to, it's up to you. I'm pleased you haven't got spotlights here. Last year we went to er Kirkby to a dem all day. It was a, it was just a lecture theatre. And they had these spotlights on and we were melting. And you know like we'll sit down and one take turn from the other. I went through the back to sit on the chair. Very posh theatre it was. Sat down and I fell through the whole of the chair. The back went you know the seat of the chair went the back. I said didn't you hear anything ? She said, no never heard a thing. landscape. Have you got some red roses for me Anna? Anna's you know. Lovely colour aren't they? They're just starting you see them more it would be nice to have them but you know . lovely. Erm so a little bit of and This is I'll put it in there. Then I'll have the red roses . It's rather you know . Putting the links in. This is er . There's a little erm piece in there you might want to Lay it on top of the potted peat down a little bit. Oh I'm that aren't you? I always find small plants you know to watch them grow. much entertainment. It is nice down where the swans are, isn't it? Now this hasn't really got going yet. And it's the bloody dog. The . So if I can get it going you know it's, it's er there you can see look what . go. Yes. Couldn't you, can you not air off the carnation? This isn't the ideal . Crisper. Yeah. I was surprised the size the leeks are getting. Oh yes. And some of the older ones are even bigger. Thanks very much. This is Sandra, I hope. The person I got it from. Sandra I don't know if you have it here have you? Demonstrating? I got that from Sandra. I, I went in her class as well at Mansfield. And then I decided that was to do with again. That was when I decided to go to to do the City and Guilds course. but we'll have a go. Er the the shrubby one. As opposed to the one that grows tall. I've got them both. I thought it was a very good point. Yes? And they'll dry nice but I think you'd need to put a stiff wire in them now while they're st you know young. But they will dry nicely and you can either keep them green, or you can spray them you know at Christmas time. If you wrap them in newspaper you keep the green better. Keep . The demonstrator we had last night I demonstrator. He said he puts his dry material er into glycerine or er antifreeze. For a day. So it, you know, it's not so brittle. Now I've got some roses to put in somewhere haven't I? Yeah. They'll have to go that side. Erm We thought we should try and do something as a kaleidoscope. So we have a round shape of a kaleidoscope. Hopefully it behaves itself. trying to make it balance all afternoon so I had to start it yesterday to make it balance. Yes I'm coming. And it's not going to do it. isn't it? Put it down a little bit more. Got girls? Who was the demonstrator you had last night then? Er Yes. Yes. He's off to G-Mex today he says. He's got a dem toda you know he's doing something there. He grows all his own material. Well he, at the moment he says he's self sufficient. Which I suppose we all should be really shouldn't we? He had an allotment which he grows his material on. You know at home. He said you've got all these men, straight lines with the vegetables and that and er he's got his, you know, rows and rows of different stuff he has in. I straight in to yellow or yellow to orange. Oh I've got some . And wrap a little bit of your Autumn Joy been quite conned into flower which as I say I think looks a little bit like broccoli doesn't it? You know it does . Good rough texture. I'll just put it back a little bit there. It all works out differently you know it, it looks very nice with er spring flowers as well. Got a nice bright green ivy. Well they did have when I bought them . That's always a sign of freshness in the chrysanths. But they had all sorts of virtually now don't they? That's why I didn't want to go to the edge because I wanted to try and do my own. I might have to hold on to it You'll have to get people to you know. put it on the table now. Don't come . Thank you ladies for inj for er inviting us here. We've enjoyed the evening. As we say we need all the practice we can get. And we wish you a safe journey home. Thank you. it's a pleasure to say thank you to Mrs and Mrs for your kaleidoscope of colour. We've really enjoyed it. gentleman. Boos, jeers and some tense moments as the Queen receives the keys of Nicosia. And acquitted, the doctor who prescribed cannabis to save her daughter from death of serious bodily harm. A judge at the Old Bailey has jailed an Irish terrorist for twenty five years for plotting a massive I R A bomb attack in Central London. Patrick Kelly who's forty one was also found guilty of attempting to murder one of the police officers who foiled the plot. P C Raymond Hall was shot last November in North London when he tried to arrest Kelly and an accomplice who were in a lorry which was found to be packed with more than three tonnes of explosives. The intuition of two unarmed policemen thwarted the I R A's attempt to plant the biggest ever bomb in the capital. On patrol in North London in the early hours of the morning, they became suspicious about a seven tonne lorry. Part of the number plate was obscured and it had been badly resprayed. It was hardly surprising the two occupants made such a quick getaway when stopped. Three and a half tonnes of home made explosives were inside, needing only seconds to prime. The device was three times the size of the Baltic Exchange bomb and would have devastated buildings within three hundred yards. Giving chase down a side road, one of the policemen challenged two men. One of them pulled out a revolver aiming it inches away from P C Ray Hall's nose. He ducked instinctively and the bullet grazed his head. He felt a second shot hit him in the back and knock him off his feet. He survived to tell an Old Bailey court of his miraculous escape. P C Hall, a former Royal Engineer, who served in the Falklands war before joining the police, said he was convinced he was going to die. Police believe Patrick Kelly was the driver of the lorry in North London rather than the gunman. He had an unlikely background for a terrorist. With convictions in England for gross indecency and importuning. Although he was found guilty in Dublin of kidnapping, he was not a known I R A man. But he and the suspect who escaped, were intent on repeating the mayhem of the City of London explosion eight months earlier. Passing sentence, Mr Justice Leonard told Kelly, the public needed protection from him. His bomb would have caused enormous damage and more importantly, could have killed anyone in the area. The judge said P C Hall's bravery in preventing the attack deserved the highest commendation. Er I joined the police five years ago with the intention of helping and serving the public and I think er last year I done it. And today the public have er returned their gesture in honour of me in the returning of the guilty verdict. What I done on that night was no more than any other police officer does or would do in the same situation. As he spoke, Patrick Kelly was driven away to begin his twenty five year sentence. Neil Bennet, B B C News, at the Old Bailey. A twenty one year old student has been cleared at the Old Bailey of raping another student after a drunken Christmas party. Austin Donnellan went on trial at his own insistence because he said he was unhappy with the way the disciplinary committee at London University's King's College was dealing with the case. Cleared of rape, Austin Donnellan stepped out of the Old Bailey and stepped into an angry scum of photographers and reporters fighting to get close to him. His case, involving an allegation that he raped another student after going out with her, has attracted wide media attention. Almost inaudible in the crush, he thanked everyone who'd helped him in the case. I'm especially grateful to my friends who supported me by giving evidence. Mr Donnellan who's twenty one and the woman were students at King's College in London. The court heard how last Christmas they both went to a dance, the woman got very drunk and they ended up back at her room. The court was told she'd alleged she was unconscious when he had sex with her. But he told the court it was quite the opposite. She was not a dead piece of meat, he said, but very energetic in bed. She encouraged sex. Donnellan said that if at any time she'd wanted him to stop, he would have done. The court heard the police became involved in the case at Mr Donnellan's insistence. The woman student and King's College wanted the matter dealt with by the University's disciplinary committee. But Mr Donnellan claimed they wanted him to admit a lesser charge to get him out of the college quietly. He said he refused to accept this because he was not guilty of anything. The college were going to try the issue before a pr private almost secret little disciplinary committee containing academics and students. And he didn't want that. He wanted it tried out in the open and for his name to be cleared. Decisively and that's happened now. Mr Donnellan's tutor said the case was important because it dealt with such a sensitive issue. The key point to me was as soon as he said n as she said, No, he stopped. In my book that's not rape. And it seems not in the jury's book either and I'm very glad of it. Moved by the verdict, Mr Donnellan's mother said she was proud he'd taken the case to the police in order to clear himself. The family are now celebrating at a secret location. Triona Holden, B B C News, the Old Bailey. Women's groups have responded angrily to the jury's decision to clear Austin Donnellan of rape. And the case has again raised the question of what constitutes consent to sex. Scenes like this leading to brief encounters between couples who may scarcely know each other, can some say, cause confusion about sexual etiquette. Is it reasonable for a woman to invite a man to her bedroom, even to undress and get into bed, and still reserve the right to refuse penetrative sex? It shouldn't be, Okay, we're in bed together, we're gonna have sex whether you want to or not. If someone changes their mind, they have that prerogative. Er and if someone isn someone might be getting into bed and and not intending to have sex then that's fine as well. However others of an older generation say women should know the risks they take once they take their clothes off. The male sex drive being what it is, the chances of his being able to stop are less perhaps than she realizes. There is a point for many men which they regard as the point of no return. And as I say, if they are perfect men, maybe they can take a deep breath and stop just like that. But some men can't. Students at London University were almost unanimous today in saying a couple going to bed together didn't necessarily mean the woman consents to sex. If the woman has asked him to stop, if she has changed her mind and doesn't want to go through with with the action o of intercourse or whatever, then the man should stop. Everybody's very confused by it. Most sex is probably nearer to rape, particularly in one's early years. And we might like to give credit for And I think it's really hard to learn to read the signs. Both parties, the man and the woman should always be in control of the situation and if for some reason they want things to stop, should have the authority and the power to do that. But some were less sure. I think if a girl got into bed with you er no clothes, I think the intention to have sex is very clear. I'm against rape but definitely if a woman er goes to a man's bed then it's quite er er sensible that if a man expects to have sex with that woman. Simple as that. However, social historians say couples having non-penetrative sex goes back a long way. A practice called bundling was quite common in the past. With an unmarried couple in a bed with a bolster down the middle. They'd just be in their underwear and er it's er there's certain evidence that they engaged in what we would call heavy petting nowadays. Some women say the old idea that a man is uncontrollable past a certain point is absurd. Consent from a woman needs to be gained at every stage during sex, even once a couple are in bed. But others say that this definition of rape will undermine the progress made so far in getting the courts to take rape seriously. It was only two years ago that rape by husbands became illegal. Polly Toynbee. The Prime Minister has again made it clear he has no intention of scrapping plans to put V A T on fuel and power. During Prime Minister's questions. the Labour leader John Smith urged the government to abandon what he called these foolish proposals. But Mr Major said extension of V A T was a vital part of policies to reduce public borrowing, earlier the Prime Minister presided over a cabinet discussion of the options for next month's budget. The cabinet's discussion was hampered by deep uncertainty about the strength of the recovery. Views differed on how much any increase in taxes could threaten the move out of recession. The most cheerful remarks seemed to have been made about the health of Michael Heseltine, who was making his first appearance at the cabinet since his heart attack. The Prime Minister led the welcome, there were cries of, hear hear and a ritual banging of the cabinet table. The chancellor kept his cards very close to his chest. He intends to wait until the last moment before making the vital decision on taxes. Mr Major told the commons that the recovery does seem to have taken root. And he made clear that despite the government's small majority, they would be prepared to take difficult decisions about how to reduce the enormous government deficit. The reality is that we need to cope with the fiscal deficit and we have the courage to do so. The labour leader opened up an Autumn offensive against the extension of V A T. Does the Prime Minister have the remotest appreciation of the overwhelming hostility throughout this nation to imposing V A T on domestic fuel. In addition to its obvious unfairness, is there not now evidence that the governments tax increases impel consumer confidence and any hope of a recovery. In these circumstances will the Prime Minister now abandon these foolish proposals. Well I think the er right honourable gentleman knows for both I and my right honourable friend the chancellor have made the position quite clear, that the extra value added tax is a vital part of our policies to get public borrowing down but that we will be offering help to people who are vulnerable. If the tax Madam speaker, is as obnoxious as the right honourable gentleman claims, then why did the Labour conference vote and I quote, For a general shift in taxation towards energy resource use? What is that other than VAT? The unpopularity of the V A T increase was a key factor in the Liberal Democrats victory in the Christchurch by-election. The government's majority is now down to seventeen. Getting a tough budget through the commons won't be easy. John Sergeant, B B C News, Westminster. The chancellor's team of independent economic advisors, the so- called seven wise men, have urged him not to do anything in his budget next month to damage the recovery. They've called for the gradual introduction of tax increases balanced by a reduction in interest rates. The chancellor's plans are always the subject of intense speculation as budget day approaches. At the conference of town planners today, he expressed the treasury's customary disdain for most of it. Strong rumours that I'm about to tax everything that moves and doesn't move. And this has er been an experience of every chancellor before. Er most of the accounts of what I'm discussing er are pretty well near fiction. Er a and er they will certainly remain secret until I produce my budget. But the rumours reflect merely what everyone knows, events are conspiring to make this budget a particularly difficult one. The chancellor's major budget headache is that the government is fifty billion pounds in the red. To reduce that borrowing figure, he could cut spending. But the overall expenditure total for next year has already been agreed and it's unlikely that much more could be pared from it. That leaves Mr Clarke with the option of raising taxes. But higher taxes mean that consumers and businesses have less money to spend. And that could damage the prospects for recovery. In their thrice yearly report, the treasury's panel of independent advisors express concern about the economies fragility. They're against large tax increases next month. Instead they want to see a more gradual approach backed by a cut in interest rates. We do think that there is a need to increase tax receipts further over the medium term from nineteen ninety five onwards by about one percentage point of G D P, about seven billion pounds. But we do not think the chancellor should raise taxes much next year because the recovery is too weak to accept that. Figures out today suggested those fears about recovery are well founded. Consumer spending appears to be slowing. The panel believe lower interest rates are needed to boost flagging demand. But they think the chancellor will have no choice but to increase taxes in the longer term as the economic climate improves. The message to the chancellor is a clear one, don't tax now, tax later. But he knows that later means closer to the next election. And while it may be economically desirable to raise taxes then, it might prove politically impossible. Gerry Baker, B B C News, as the treasury. About a hundred Greek Cypriot demonstrators booed and jeered the Queen today as she was handed the keys of Nicosia. The divided capital of Cyprus. The demonstrators want Britain to apologize for the executions of nine men who fought for the island's independence in the fifties. Here's our Middle Eastern correspondent Michael Macmillan. In Nicosia's old city, a couple of hundred right wing Eoka supporters chanted, The Queen is a traitor, we don't want you here. Inside the walls at Famagusta Gate, the shouting could still be heard as the Queen was presented with the key to the city by the Mayor of Nicosia. Those opposed to the Queen's visit had demanded that she be refused the honour both here and in Limassol. It was an uncomfortable affair, the Mayor used it as an occasion to condemn what he called the Turkish occupation of the North of the island and Douglas Hurd looked on clearly anxious that the whole thing be wound up as soon as possible. The chaos continued as they reversed the Queen's Rolls Royce for a quick departure. Her press secretary looked worried. As did her driver. And Mr Hurd who's angered the Greek Cypriots by his plans to meet the Turkish Cypriot leader, declined to comment. He was booed as well. The Queen emerged to more protests but finally forced a smile before she was driven away. Elsewhere in Nicosia there were several arrests and in one incident police fired tear gas to disperse a crowd. It was a day in which the Queen was anxious to leave the past behind and to the end she made a point of meeting Argentinian soldiers who form part of the U N contingent here. It has been a difficult day for the Queen and tonight she's been snubbed following the decision by the municipality of Limassol not to present her with the keys to the town. The palace is playing it all down but clearly this visit is not going according to plan. Michael Macmillan, B B C News, Nicosia, Cyprus. The time is six sixteen and still to come, big supermarket chains line up to try to stop American style shopping in Britain. The supermarkets say warehouse club shopping should be subject to the same planning laws as they are. And Benazir Bhutto is back as Pakistan's Prime Minister for the second time. A doctor who gave cannabis to her sick daughter has been cleared of criminal charges at Liverpool Crown Court. Dr Anne denied supplying cannabis. She said she gave it to her daughter because she believed it was the only drug which could help alleviate her condition. She said she'd been following a higher moral law. The trial lasted a week. Dr always insisting that she wasn't campaigning for the legalization of cannabis. For ten years, Anne who ran a G P practice from her home at Wallasey, tried to obstruct her daughter taking cannabis because she thought it would do her harm. The court heard that Lucy who is thirty three has suffered a serious and intractable illness for thirteen years. Eventually her mother became convinced cannabis could help after reading evidence from doctors in the United States. The s' family priest says the conflict between medicine and law put a tremendous strain on the doctor. As a doctor she would be i in the dilemma of of trying to give her daughter something which er is not allowed, and yet as a as a doctor she could prescribe other things for other people and here she is as a mother with her own child in her own house, unable to to do anything very much for her. It took the jury less than an hour to clear Dr . What she did she did clearly for the benefit of her daughter who was unwell, as any normal natural mother would in the circumstances. What what are you going to do now? I want to go and have a gin and tonic. A double gin. Dr 's defence had been legally unusual, that of necessity. She believed that supplying cannabis to her daughter was morally right in the medical circumstances. John Thorne, B B C News, Liverpool. Two men who ran Britain's biggest ecstasy smuggling gang have each been jailed for twenty four years at Maidstone Crown Court. The men, Ronald Maine and Ronald Johnson, headed an international operation, smuggling drugs worth and estimated fifty eight million pounds. Two accomplices were also jailed for their part in the operation. The supermarket chains, Sainsbury, Tesco and Safeway have applied to the high court to try to stop the opening in this country of an American style warehouse club. Costco is due to open a club at Thurrock in Essex next month and is able to cut prices by keeping overheads low. It's classified as a wholesaler but the supermarkets say Costco should be subject to the same planning rules as retailers. This is the development that's upsetting Britain's supermarket giants. A huge warehouse that's nearing completion at Thurrock in Essex, and which offers the kind of discounts already enjoyed by millions of Americans. Like this Boston store, warehouse clubs are open to members only and though they're pitched at businesses, individuals can join too if they can show they've a steady income and pay their thirty dollar subscription. For that they get access to anything from food to car tyres. Mostly well known brands at up to fifty percent less than they'd pay elsewhere. I need to have three of four hundred dollars because before you even get through the store, you just buy. I believe that the large supermarkets have had it too good for too long. They've had tremendous power in the market place with no competition. American supermarkets have hit back by cutting many of their prices and printing more money off coupons. They save this woman over twenty pounds a trip. Like our own superstores, they stock a much wider range of goods than the warehouses, but experts say supermarkets in Britain should be worried if the clubs do take off here. Unless they dramatically change the way they do business, they're going to have problems, they won't go away certainly. I mean people are always going to want to want the convenience of er driving to a nearby established supermarket, but their profit margins will decline. But the big three supermarket chains deny their high court action is to kill off Costco. They say they simply want clubs to be subject to the same planning restrictions they face. They're promoting themselves to a very significant extent on the basis that they're selling at cheaper prices to the public. That means in my book that they're er doing retailing. Er if they're retailers then they should er comply with retail regulations as does any other retailer in the United Kingdom. Costco has already put in a second application to answer some of the criticisms. But supermarkets have hinted that they may challenge that in the courts as well. John Andrew, B B C News. Benazir Bhutto has been sworn in as Prime Minister of Pakistan for the second time after a decisive victory in the country's parliament over her greatest rival, the Muslim League leader, Nawa Shariff. But her Pakistan people's party must wait until tomorrow to find out if it has the power that comes with control of the key state of Punjab. After days of coalition building, Benazir Bhutto could only wait to see if it had paid off. Nawa Shariff lost the election and he's lost the battle for the independence and members of minority parties who hold the balance of power. The count was a hundred and twenty one for Benazir Bhutto, seventy two for Nawa Shariff. And from the Prime Minister's chair, a word for the loser. Pakistani voters watched the drama unfold. . a short drive from the capital, is one of the Punjab cities where Nawa Shariff is strongest. His control of the Punjab Assembly neutralized Benazir Bhutto's last administration. The former military dictator General Zir-El-Haaq is still revered here. His son sits in the National Assembly for Nawa Shariff's party. We have all come out with er with the worst er scenario ever er in the er democratic history of Pakistan. And any government which is going to be formed in the centre I don't think it is going to last for too long. Benazir Bhutto says that after the summer of turmoil in Pakistan, this could be the last chance for parliamentary democracy. Everyone knows that if this time round, there is political instability, it may be a long time before Pakistan gets yet another chance at election. But for now the army is prepared to watch and wait. As Benazir Bhutto was sworn in the news came in that her choice for speaker had been elected in Punjab. The first indication that tomorrow she could take the state. Benazir Bhutto looks to be strong but it's a coalition of convenience not conviction, in a country where politics follows the rules of war, opposition means nothing, winning is everything. Tonight Benazir Bhutto is winning. David Loin, B B C News, Islamabad. The Welsh Secretary, John Redwood, told the House of Commons today that the Welsh Development Agency had tightened up its procedures in the wake of a highly critical report. In July the Commons public accounts committee attacked the W D A for its management practices and for making unauthorized redundancy payments worth more than a million pounds. The Agency's chief executive has since resigned, another director left today and two other directors have been disciplined. Our industry correspondent Stephen Evans reports. Why have forty five Japanese companies chose Wales as their European launch pad? The Agency has painted the brightest picture of Wales around the world. Spending a hundred and seventy one million pounds a year to draw countless foreign firms. But the image was tarnished by the public accounts committee report. Neil Smith, guilty of fraud, became marketing director and interviewed models in a hotel. Redundancy pay of one point four million pounds was said to be excessive. The Agency's chief executive resigned yesterday. One other official has gone, two demoted or reprimanded. Procedures are to be tightened. The independent panel that I appointed in July as you are aware, reported yesterday. Its recommendations are severe. However they are comprehensive. And it has given the board opportunity to take the necessary action. In Parliament this afternoon the debate was over where responsibility lies. It is clear from the report that my predecessors were not to blame and that the primary responsibility lay at exept executive level in the W D A and I suggest honourable members opposite read the report . Is it any wonder given such casual leadership from the Welsh Office, that standards in the Agency itself fell to such unacceptable levels. This man's done a fabulous job. The Welsh Development Agency, fabulous job. But the Prime Minister of the time's favourite W D A head Dr Gwynne Jones has now gone. As Wales seeks growth, the dilemma for the Agency is how to get a commercial go-getting mentality on public money with public control. The government wants devolved decision making. But then tight audits. Labour fears privatization. Stephen Evans, B B C News. A bill to grant posthumous pardons to all three hundred and seven British soldiers who were executed in the first world war, has gained a formal first reading in the house of commons. The MP who introduced the bill said many of the men who were shot for cowardice were in fact suffering from shell shock. A village churchyard across the muddy fields from the Somme bears testimony to the British soldiers found to have failed their country. Condemned as cowards, deserters, they were shot by their own side in a war which wiped out much of a generation. In the first terrible hours of battle, twenty thousand died as they advanced into the German's heavy artillery and machine guns. One suicidal attack followed another every soldier wavered between courage and fear. In a regiment which had two men shot for cowardice, Reg Glen, now a hundred, says those executed didn't deserve dishonour or death. It was shell shock. There was a er no doubt it was a disease. And it could attack anybody. And er more likely to be people of a nervous disposition. Those men who finally couldn't face going over the top from these trenches on the Somme, met with summary justice. They had little chance to defend themselves at their court marshal, they weren't properly represented and there was very little right of appeal. The firing squads met at dawn. Just behind these front lines. Corporal Harry Farr was shot for cowardice in October nineteen sixteen. At the Somme memorial to those with no known grave, his granddaughter wants a posthumous pardon, to finally purge the shame her family had sought to hide for three generations. My mother didn't know until she was in her mid forties. And she only learnt from somebody else that her father had been executed. It was a dreadful stigma. MP Andrew McKinley says records at the Imperial war museum clearly show the brutality of battlefield justice. His bill now goes forward for a second reading but stands a slim chance of becoming law. Executed May nineteen sixteen. Dear oh dear. The families of those shot at dawn, still hope that Ministers who say they won't rewrite history, may yet change their minds and give every victim of the great war, the same respect. Mike Donkin, B B C News, The Somme. And tonight's main news again, an Irish terrorist Patrick Kelly, has been sent to prison for twenty five years for plotting a bomb attack in Central London and attempting to murder a policeman who stopped the lorry packed with explosives. A London University graduate has been cleared of raping a student after a party. And Greek Cypriot demonstrators jeered the Queen as she received the keys of Nicosia. The next national news is the Nine O'clock News but from Anna Ford and from me good evening. Good evening. additional responsibility. We look forward very much to his succession to the Chair, and we wish him very well and I know that he can count on the full support of all the honorary officers, and all of you as members of the Council as he takes on these new responsibilities. So, I gather that Jeffrey would like to say a word or two, and at this stage, and if he would he would be welcome to do so, meanwhile er, as I've said, I hope you will join me in wishing er, the Bishop god speed, and in wishing Jeffrey very well for the future. Mr. Chairman, ladies and gentlemen, it isn't that I would like to say a word, it is that told me to say a word, and I realise I am starting off in the right way. May I say how deeply honoured I am to be invited to chair N C V O. I am acutely conscious with a degree of trepidation and indeed humility, that I face a huge challenge in following in Alan's footsteps. You would anyhow not expect on this occasion any words of wisdom from me, indeed my wife and four daughters would doubtless tell you that you should never expect words of wisdom from me. So may I simply say briefly, but nonetheless with emphasis and sincerity two things. First that I believe the causes you serve are vital to the welfare and happiness of people in this country, and that they will become more so in future. And secondly, that I will do my utmost to serve you and those causes to the best of my ability. Very well, I'll, let's just then move on to resolution number thr ,thr , three as printed on your order paper. I don't propose to go right er, through it. I once chaired at, somebody may remember a sort of constitutional commission as it was grandly called, which we went through all these things with a tooth-comb in order to try to get the composition of the executive committee er, right and appropriate for er, this current time. So let me confine myself simply to inviting erm, Penny , to propose the resolution. Those are mine, my, my, my You can come to this one if you will. It gives me pleasure to move the adoption of resolution three, that the executive committee be constituted as on page two of the resolution paper to consist of not more than thirty two members, and that those people listed on page two, be elected members of the executive committee. I'd also like to add a great thanks to the retiring executive committee for all the hard work that they've done during the past year. Thanks. And Paula , if she will to second the resolution. I'm happy to commend all these names to the meeting and to second the resolution. Is er, are there any comments or questions that any member of the Council would wish to put forward before we vote on this resolution? Alright, then er, it has been proposed and seconded, and er, those in favour? And those against? Very well, that is carried certainly, nem con, quite possibly unanimous although it's rather hard to see into the far corners. Erm, so we come to special resolution number one, which is as set out on your order paper, which is to do with the replacement of a, er, clause in our Memorandum of Association, and I will invite Jeffrey to move it. Thank you. There are er, two special resolutions this year and they both relate to our investment powers. Erm, we set up an investment panel of the erm, the executive committee to specifically to look in detail at our investment policy, in the light of resolution four at the nineteen eighty-seven A G M. We've met with our investment advisors on several occasions, and we have considered our in , investment policy in some detail. We propose to establish a, an investment charter which will set out our policy and in particular balance the duties of us as trustees. Our duty is to secure the best return we possibly can or on, on our investments and yet at the same time to have regard to the aims and objectives of the Council itself. We've made some progress towards establishing the criteria which we should set out in our policy, and the mechanisms needed to control that policy. However, we have I'm sorry to say, identified two constraints in our powers, and we cannot make further progress until these constraints have been removed. We need to deal with these constraints by special resolutions which will amend our Memorandum of Association. The first constraint relates to the range of investments which are available to us as trustees. At present we're limited by the powers available under the Trustee Investment Acts nineteen sixty-one, this sets out the amounts which we may invest in narrow and wide ranges of investment. In general terms the narrow range of investments are fairly, very safe and secure investments, but they are ones which are less likely to secure higher returns but of course also, less likely to secure risks of low returns. The wider range is erm, what might be termed more speculative investments, but there are many shares available within the wider range which are in fact extremely sound and safe investments, and the sort which we as trustees would wish to invest in. Now at, at the moment we have to keep fifty percent of our investments in the narrow range and we may place fifty percent in the wider range. I have to say though, that when we the Council advise other charities on the investment powers that they should take when they're established and when they draft their Memorandum of Association, erm, we advise them to take wider powers er, than these, and we advise them that they should not seek to constrain themselves by the Trustee Investment Act nineteen sixty-one, as our own flexibility is constrained. The, the result of this, this constraint on us is that it reduces our opportunity to secure the best returns available. There are better returns available from wider range investments than from narrow range investments, and better returns without unnecessarily increasing our risks. Secondly the, the constraint reduces the opportunity that we have to pursue the ethical investment policies which will have regard to the aims and objectives of the Council as a whole, and then lastly there is the matter of practicality. Erm, since the wider range investments on the whole tend to increase in value more rapidly than the narrower range investments, then as the investments in the normal course of management are bought and sold, the proportion which you have invested in the wider range tends to increase faster than the proportion that you have invested in the narrower range. We therefore would need to do some quite careful accounting in order to make sure that we didn't contravene that erm, the, the requirement of the Trustee Investment Act in the future. So we wish therefore to remove this first constraint on our powers and I'd emphasise again that it is, is our intention to use, it's not our intention to use the wider powers to increase the risks, it's simply to improve er, our ability to gain the best returns and satisfy the objectives of the Council. The trustees will still be bound by a duty to act prudently and in the best interests of the Council and its members. I therefore move the first special resolution. Thank you, is erm, David here? I've rather doubt that he might not be and, and then Bert er, has very kindly said that he would erm, stand in for him to second this resolution. I formally second the resolution, Chairman. Thank you. Erm, well I think that er,the report of these er, resolutions and er, of this resolution, and er, so er, but there may be questions or comments on it, so no alright, then er, let me put it to you. That is, special resolution number one, on your order paper be approved. Those in favour? Those agin? None. Thank you. Would you like then to go on, erm, Jeffrey, to special resolution number two? It's a kind of accompanying resolution to the one that you have just passed. Thank you. The trustees in acting prudently on investments need to take advice, and, and we have done so for many years, and our investment advisors are currently Schroder Investment Management Limited. Under the Financial Services Act, a number of provisions have been passed to protect investors, erm, and N C V O, as an investor also comes under the protection of the Financial Services Act. One, one particular requirement of the Act is that there should be a management agreement between the investors and the investment advisors. This management agreement is to formally set out the relationship between them to establish the investment policies to be pursued, the powers of the trustees or the investors, and the investment advisors, to establish clearly the fees and charges which are to be made by the advisors and the basis on which they will be made. To establish how the advisors shall report on their activities to the investors, and to set out any other conditions which the investors may wish to establish. The Financial Services Act also requires for a body such N C V O that their Memorandum of Association should actually include an explicit power to use investment advisors. This second special resolution is designed to enable us to comply with that requirement of the Financial Services Act. There are however, a number of safeguards in that resolution. In particular the resolution requires that we the trustees, should establish clear policy guidelines, and the investment panel I hope, will very shortly be able to do that. Secondly it requires that all transactions made on our behalf shall be reported promptly, I, I would emphasise that this is already the practice the investment tr , er, transactions are already reported to our Finance Department and trustees of course, must sign the necessary transfer forms. Thirdly there is a power for the trustees to revoke or amend the agreement at any time. And then lastly there is an obligation on us to review at least annually, the position of our advisors. As you know we meet with our advisors, at least twice a year, and we effectively review that erm, that agreement at those six month points. But we may also in the future, wish to review it more formally and consider what other, er, arrangements we might make. So I would emphasise then, again, that the resolution is intended to enable the present position to continue, and to enable your trustees to manage the funds effectively in setting the policy and benefiting from the advice which is available. I therefore move the second special resolution. Thank you Jeffrey. Perhaps Mr. Spencer would oblige again, erm, by seconding this resolution. I formally second the resolution, Chairman. Right, thank you. Erm, now any comments or que , or questions or whatever er, on this resolution? Resolution number, special resolution two, as printed on your order papers? just to say I was afraid that everyone had lost their voices, er, it's good to have a, a question. Yes, this is a question on the er, resolution two, item five. It talks about the Council remaining liable. Er, is the Council or is it the trustees remain liable, I'm unclear on that point? Perhaps Jeffrey would like to deal with that, or Adrian. I think er, Joe, it might be more appropriate perhaps if our legal advisor tells us of the niceties of the clause which he drafted. Right, Adrian . Gentlemen,this is a clause based on a provision recommended by the Charity Commission. The answer here is a very technical one, but the trustees of an organisation of this kind are of course the, the executive committee. They're the directors in, in company law, but they're the executive committee names in the Memorandum of Association. They're also the charity trustees, and I think it would be true to say that in the very final analysis they are the people who are ultimately responsible. Does that erm, meet your point? Yes, I believe that actually it should be the responsibility of the officers of an association to take the responsibility. They are reported to, they define the policy, and I don't believe that it's the intention of the executive committee to come to this meeting every time there's a change of investment policy. I don't believe that would be the practice, and therefore I believe the executive committee as the trustees and custodians on our behalf, in this matter, should take the responsibility, and I would have preferred the trustees rather than the Council to have been stated at that point. Jeffrey, Adrian. If, if as I understand it, it's a matter of law, and the practice will be much as just suggested, is that a correct er, interpretation. So I think your point is in effect met, but we have to observe very properly the requirements of the law. Right, erm, any other comments or suggestions on special resolution number two? Very well, may I put it to you that this special resolution be adopted. Those in favour?and those against? Thank you er, and that is passed. Now we have er, erm, reached the conclusion of the formal part of the, this Annual General Meeting. At the next session, will be chaired by Kay , and er, she will tell us what she is about as it were, erm, in a moment. Before that, there are one or two other things I should like to do, er, in particular to thank Tunstall Telecom for their spart , part sponsorship of this meeting. They're very much involved with networked community care, to use their own phrase, and those of you who want to know more about them, they've got a stall outside, and er, their wares so to say, are set out for you to see. Erm, otherwise it remains only to say thank you very much for coming, I hope you've found the experience helpful. I'm grateful to you for your readiness to fall in with the proposals made, and er, I have enjoyed the opportunity to chair this A G M. The meeting is now concluded. It is for people properly funded by a democratic enabling local state and under con , the control of those who have no pecuniary interest in the development of care. Voluntary organisations er, can do this and are in the best place to undertake this. Of course we must be cautious about taking on difficult tasks as if to prove our social virility. This was put well by Diana , and her colleagues in a Policy Studies Institute report a couple of years ago. Voluntary organisation they said, in their desire for recognition and funds, sometimes seem all too willing to conspire with the statutory sector on the basis that they can do the impossible, but miracles take a little longer. Voluntary organisations, as Diana and her colleagues said, should have the confidence to suggest that although under the right conditions and with the right resources, er, they may be able to do the impossible, miracles are not on offer. The communitarian state would provide those resources to in ,in , to do what perhaps has been traditionally seen as the impossible, but it will require extensive support. Health authorities and local authorities must be encouraged to come to see the necessity of providing local umbrella groups such as Councils for Voluntary Service, with grant aid to develop industrial relations expertise, er, marketing help, P R help, and so on. If not voluntary organisations may be able to obtain some of those from the private sector if they know where to look. Perhaps C V S's can act as er, brokers for relevant professional services. But the important thing is that the voluntary sector must hijack the trends from the old statism to the new individualism, and steer it into a better way. We've got to be pro-active about this, it's no good simply sitting back and waiting for whatever government is in power, to impose certain regulations, certain restrictions, certain proposals. From being mainly voluntarily established we must see the development of new catalysed organisations meeting specific needs. Statutory agencies will have to use a judicious mixture of grant and contract to help set up new organisations run by the community for the community, to create the range and choice required by consumers. The voluntary sector I believe must accept those developments whilst at the same time, demanding effective regulation and monitoring to create a managed community market. Although some of the worst fears of those who dislike the market mentality can be discarded there is no doubt that complete freedom of competition particularly in social care, will not work. This strategy requires a major change in the way voluntary organisations perceive themselves, and the way local and central government perceives the community. Some of the trends are already there, others need to be encouraged. None of it will be easy. The voluntary sector though, has a greater role to play now than ever before, both as advocate and service provider. They will need extensive support from N C V O and other groups, er, to be able to undertake that task. If central and local government are serious in their intent to create choice and consumerism, what I would call welfare consumerism in health and social care, then they must also take seriously the need to support voluntary organisations trying to meet those aspirations. By and large I do not believe that people want for profit organisations running human service delivery. Indeed I don't believe the private sector can get into the community in the way that er, not for profit, communitarian organisations can. What we need is to get the best of both worlds, an enhanced and more competent community providing care, support and help to individuals efficiently but without dumping disadvantaged people onto unsupported relatives. There is of course, an opportunity to use money currently locked up in large institutions and statutory organisations more productively through local effort. That is the challenge for local government. The current government must recognise that it cannot continue to go down the line of an individualist anxiety- ridden state, of competitive individuals where the poor and disabled are left to starve on city streets. On the other hand, Labour and other opposition parties, cannot just reassert the old statist notions about public funding of public production. Whichever of the two main parties forms the government of the early nineteen nineties, it will have to create a greater consensus in health and social care as well as other areas of our national life. Not only that, but a fuller consensus morality is also required. The voluntary sector is probably the only vehicle by which that dialogue can take place. I believe the voluntary sector is on the brink of massive change, there will be those who cannot cope, and will harp back to the old authoritarian days of small grants and sherry with the Chair of Social Services. There will be those who just cannot get into gear, who will watch the private sector take over many of the functions which have been, previously been run by local government. But there will be those who will grab the trends and steer them into a new direction. The scope for the voluntary sector and not for profit activity in the nineteen nineties is immense, it will not be expansion just for its own sake, but principled entrepreneurial activity aimed to make the most of opportunities on behalf of the community. Being of the community can assist in empowering the community to provide better services and support for disadvantaged and disabled people. Er, at the same time, the voluntary sector can assist in developing a new shared morality. A highest common factor of our collective conscience. Nothing less will do. Thank you. Well I'm not sure how you follow that, exciting challenges, persuasive ideas, sound strategic proposals for the future, not to mention a word with which not all of us may be entirely familiar, and I include myself among them, communitarian. Er, we have set questions on the agenda, and Chris, I think we've time? Yes, just for a few questions if you've gathered your thoughts together. There's so much in what Chris has said is there not, that we, I'm so pleased that your address is going to be published because I feel that it's something we shall want to have and to take back to our organisations. So would anyone like to ask a question of Chris? Would you like to say who you represent please. My name's Carolyn and I'm for Director for a group exploring parenthood. I suppose my first experience is one of immense frustration, because I think this is very important document that you bring to us, but the speed and the sound being, the loud sound of delivery made it very difficult to stay with the, the concept and ideas. So I would first urge that we get that paper out to us as soon as possible. Thank you, Chris would you like to comment. Yes, first of all er, is this, this is er, on. I'm, I'm sorry if it was to difficult to, to follow, either because of the microphones or It was so loud Was it, I am sorry. Erm, also I, I wanted to try and cover the main points and it's very difficult with a subject like that to, to only give you part of the, the story otherwise people would immediately say, well, yes, but you haven't thought about this or that. I'm quite sure you'll still say that, but erm, because it is er, it's in a sense, it's complex. I, I think to erm, very briefly to answer your point, erm, I believe that the, the quotes contract culture which is around at the moment, has missed out a major component which is concerned with community development and community enhancement. Erm, and I, I, I think that's very, very important. There's this tendency to suggest that there are these providers out there, that will provide. That health authorities and local authorities can simply tender and contract with the people there, and they're not there. Or if they are there, they're existing voluntary organisations which may be already very loaded, who've got a lot of work to do, to get into a negotiating framework and so on, so the first the thing I'd say in answer to you is that, N C V O and other must put a tremendous pressure on government and local authorities to fund the community development aspect of the pluralistic society which er, the current government seems to want. Erm, secondly, we will only be able to do that effectively and this is the point you were making about say, erm, school governors and so on, if people really feel they do have some genuine power, locally, it must be about enabling and empowering local groups to have power and take part within their community. Because so many of the people who, so many people at the moment feel I think that they, they have very little real influence, and that's why people don't turn up, it's why people don't vote for local government. Erm, and what I'm interested in is how we can through local democratic channels create true empowerment of the community. A community which is then in a position to provide care and support within the community properly funded by local government, so it becomes a symbiosis. But it does require that the local er, er, organisations feel genuinely empowered, and that's a major challenge for local government. Thank you very much, I'm sure there's a debate within that, that we can all continue, and I hope we will continue because it's so important. Er, Ray, Sir Ray. Whenever I hear Chris I'm illumined for three quarters of the time, and dazzled for the other quarter. Erm, could I take a couple of points. Erm, first the unimportant one is semantic. The problem about the word communitarianism is that the French have pinched it. It means being a good member of the community in Europe, so I don't think that horse is going to run. But if what it means is to combine a sense of community, a sense of society, a sense of inter-dependent provision and collaboration in doing it and in providing true welfare con , consumerism, the government have chosen the word partnership. Now I think it's in Alice in Wonderland, that it is said that words mean what I intend them to mean. Can't we build on the word partnership and make it mean what you want. I think it's the nearest we'll get to it, and it's in the White Paper and it can be used in exactly the sense that I gather you would like it to be used, in the discussions we have on the results of the scrutiny, and that would be the starting point there. The second point is being totally in favour of you're selling your book. Do you in it go a little further in exploring the criteria which should govern who does what? Starting one supposes with who does what best, to get away from the sense of the government imposing a ratchet, on expenditure. That's perhaps enough. Yes, thank you. Erm,Two points, the, the first on partnership. I, I don't believe, I don't want to impose a particular word, and if communitarianism is a difficulty then I, I accept that. Er, it was the best word that I felt I could use at this time, it may be that a, if a debate ensues from this, or from er, other er, writings about, of myself and other people over this next few months, that a term will emerge that people feel happy with, but certainly we are talking about community partnership. We are talking about erm, enabling and empowerment and the enhancement of community, and I think those are the terms which really matter. How, erm, er, and, and I think as you're saying what word we put round that, almost doesn't matter as long as it's understood to mean that, erm, that, that range of, of concepts and requirements. In relation to your second question about criteria, er, I do say something about that, I do try to erm, tease that out to some extent, but it is of course, a difficult one. Erm, in many ways, one could say that the community or community organisations, local organisations are capable of running most things, erm, indeed they did at once, and some of those functions were taken over by the central or local state. If we go back forty, forty five years social work, erm, housing was all provided by voluntary agencies or private agencies, and not necessarily by the state. Erm, and so, but we do need to do that, and I believe the work that you have been doing erm, I don't know when that's to be published, er, but will I'm sure assist us in developing the criteria which will help voluntary organisations to decide what they properly should be doing. I think perhaps the most important thing is that voluntary agencies should do what they believe is right, and not allow their own objectives to be distorted, simply because a, of particular flavours, which is why I'm saying let us grab the agenda and write the agenda, rather than have the agenda set for us by other people. Thank you. Thank you very much. I think er, we just have er, time for one very brief question if you would please. I think,yes. Mervyn , representing Help the Aged, or at least representing myself in responding to Chris Heginbotham's address, but er, here for Help the Aged today. Can I identify with the objective of communitarianism, can I also share your concept that the voluntary sector is the locus within which that sort of discussion should be and can be taking place. But can I suggest it's probably a lot more difficult to get there than you were describing even with the various points that you were raising in your address this morning, because I wonder if it is fair for all of us, to accept the immediate linkage between the voluntary sector whatever we actually mean by that, and good community institutions, community thinking, community awareness. It seems to me that an awful lot of the voluntary sector does come from very much the individualist side of the equation which you were laying out in front of us Chris. You probably remember, erm, a stimulating little book published last year by Frank on the Impulse to Philanthropy, where certainly in his nineteenth century analysis of the growth of philanthropy, he saw to main things, evangelicalism, which er, meant that people were going out looking for converts, and therefore doing good social work on the way, and the growth of the women's movement, in the sense that women otherwise unemployed were looking for a new area of activity to get into. Both of those strands are very much part of volunteering, they're very much linked with the concept of the active citizen, and there are still lots of voluntary organisations that form and which continue, and which are existing today, which stem entirely from people's desire to go out there and do something, in their own way. So that is a very individual strand. Another strand of our present voluntary sector are the self-help groups which of course are also going to be extremely individual, and one third point, Madam Chairman, the development of not for profit companies and things like that could also have a very individual strand to them as well since they sound a little bit like our existing small business sector under a community name. Thank you. I don't think I'd quite greet that as brief question, but thank you to your contribution to the discussion. Chris would you like to respond quite briefly. Yes, I can probably give you a brief answer, because er, in that you've raised a whole host of other things, erm, which erm, er, we need to, we need to think about and, and debate, and I hope we'll have further occasions to do so. Er, I just the main point. I do think there are problems and difficulties, I don't think it will be easy, not least because we don't have a shared morality and a shared consensus, on the objectives for the voluntary sector, but it is a set of concerns which we must address, er, and I believe that if, if I've done nothing else today, I've kicked off a debate, or I've contributed to a debate which was already rolling, erm, and that we must address those difficulties, and try and find ways through them, because there are opportunities as well as threats in the current situation and I believe we have to look at all of those er, so that we can move into the nineteen nineties which I believe will be a very exciting period for the voluntary sector, and one which the voluntary sector should er, see as exciting, grab the opportunities and move forward. Thank you very much Chris. I think erm, the address we have just heard is a most valuable contribution to the series of the Sir George lectures, and I'm delighted that you were available and you were willing to do this. I think all the many ideas which have been proposed, the, the challenging thoughts, they will make a most enormous contribution to the discussions which we all will be having, and I think, not only ourselves in the voluntary sector, but those elsewhere also. Because as you so rightly say, we are part of that partnership of that er, movement forward, but there are other partners too, and we want to take them forward with us. So thank you very much indeed for your contribution, I think we've all found this a most interesting finish to the A G M of the N C V O. Are there any announcements about lunch and things like that? No Oh,lu , lunch is served outs , outside, and erm, you all have had details of your special interest meetings, both the time and location, please make sure you check those on the notice board outside. Thank you. Oh well there was clothes and gardens and and just the same as it is now. But oh that's where the Was it the Clydesdale bank that's at the top of Castle Street? Mhm. That was and that was a grand shop. We used to all wear pinnies, white pinnies, on the top of our dresses and going to school and I used to go into old Mr n and he would say to me And what colour of the bow do you want on your pinny today? And I would say He'd wait for me to say, Blue to match my eyes. Just as a kid he would lift me up on the m up on the er counter, you know and me I was born in and then we shifted to the bottom, you know that white house, I think it's all offices now, in the the erm big gates of the cathedral. You know at the bottom of the market green. Well the house, you just went in a gate there and went up the stairs there. So it was just My mother used to see me across the road with my shilling to pay for my pinny. And one day I dro I dropped it down the the drain as I went into the shop. And I tears of course, you know, and er the poor old man he was a very small man, Mr , and er he lifted me up and told me never to mind, i could get another shilling. But I don't know whether I ever got . Or whether I got the pinny for nothing, I might have easy. Yes? Did you have to have a different pinny every day then? Oh very nearly. Oh yes, but they were just things that you tied at the back and and er had a frilled round here They were bonny. On the top of your dress. And what was the pinny for? Oh just dress. You were dressed in a clean one, you had a clean pinny on. You know, just a thing with sleeves and and er han hang loose on you. You've seen pi pictures of that surely. Was that to keep the dress clean? I don't know I think it was just to make us look pretty with a white pinny on the top of our clothes . And did all the bairns wear t All the girls wear these? Oh yes. Nearly every girl. Well when they were tiny anyway. Mhm. Well it must have been an awful job to keep all these white? Oh yes and then we Oh whenever we had anything like picnics or anything like that, we had lovely white dresses that were made of what they called nun's veiling. What could I say it was like? It was a sort of woollen soft material but very er thin. And the ladies all when they were dressed they would have a skirt made of this and a frilly blouse with a high neck and er a silver buckled belt round their waist. Did they wear very tight corset ? Oh mercy yes. Yes my aunt was Mrs David , and goodness me I can remember her having the laces pulled in. just slim waists waists. Big bottoms I always used to say . What sort of things did they have to keep their waists in? They looked terribly tough. Well just corsets like that, and they're fastened on the front with things that clicked in and then sometimes they would have a What they called a Oh what on earth did they call that? It was a thing made of whale bone that they shoved down side without fastening. And there were just as stiff as boards. Did they have to keep that on all day? Oh yes. Well did that not do any damage to their ribs then ? Well you would think so wouldn't you but it Nobody ever to say anything about it. Did did they have to wear lots of Do you remember your aunties or your your mother Did they have to lots of layers of clothes or they seem to be. Yes. And they they they very often, when they were dressed, they would have a little shawl that they would lay over their shoulders instead of a a long scarf thing you know? They'd have a little fancy shawl or My Grandma used to always have a fancy shawl that Just a small thing that came, you know, a bit down their back and And my Grandma used to wear erm a white much It was just thing like a baby's A cotton thing, tied with a just a string, you know just to erm just a tie under her chin and it would have a wee bit of lace s on the corner, or the or the end of the tie, that was through the day and it was all ruffled, and then when she was on holiday and came into town she had a a thing on her head made of velvet and it all had fancy little things in it. Very posh. Did she live in the country? She lived in Deerness. Mhm. Was it a big event to come into Kirkwall Oh yes. My goodness yes. Some some of them were never in t I well I didn't know my aunt when I met her with a hat on. My aunt. There was one time she was all dressed up to go to town and I didn't know her because she had a hat on. I never seen her with a hat on in my life before, but Grandma wore a a bonnet, when she came into town. and Grandma was the same, she had a she had another little fancy hat that she wore. Funny little things then. Did Could everybody afford to have their own horse and gig or or was there a bus that came in or? Oh never such a thing as a bus, was brakes in these days that went to the country. They didn't have a horse bus of any kind, did they? No Well Yes they had what they called brakes that came in. And erm they the w it was a place called diamonds in Deerness. Er Diamonds was the name of the farm or the place and then it came along to the lighthouse corner. New Lighthouse was the name of the house. that was one of mu un uncles that had that house and Well my cousins have it now. And then they set off from there into Kirkwall about What time? About nine o'clock in the morning. And we sat in two rows and two horses pulling at us. And did they have to stop and change the horses? No no. Just you see? No no they didn't do tat. But Granddad had a lovely little What could you call it? A little gig It wasn't a gig either, he did have a gig but he had this thing, a sort of long shaped er What would you call it ? I I've got mixed up with the names of the things. Before my time I think it's Oh by Jove it is. Er and they used to sit in that. Erm two little doors at the Well it's just kind of the shape of What could I say it's the shape of? Well there would be a seat they would be facing each other in their seats. There's a picture of Granddad in in erm that new Orkney book that came out. Erm What's the name of it? What the N David David Stanley had a whole lot of pictures and there's an awful lot of pictures in it belonging to my Granddad and Grandma. We're not in it but me cousins and uncles and aunts and everybody's in it. Is that the the one. The all the old photographs of Orkney I've seen that one. Yes. Yeah. Well if you see an old man sitting there with a a shining fronted cap on you'll know that's me Granddad, in a white beard. Is there any sort of shelter ? Well when No no. No shelter. What happened if it was a pouring day rain ? it must have poured on us but I can't ever remember it raining You know there was when we used to go to Deerness I had very long hair and we And Kirkwall wasn't just the cleanest of place at places at that time. And my hair was gingery, more or less the colour of the map you know, or a little darker than the colour of the map. And when I When it was opened out for me going to Deerness, well that was a great event. Grandma used to always say, Oh I know she's on the bus because I can see her here. And er when I went to school, Miss the old teacher, she used to take me out, er I used to go to the school ready to go to Deerness, we had to ask out a quarter of an hour early. And erm when Because we went the first day of our holidays, right away, to Deerness to my mother's people. And er I had to ask out this quarter of an hour early, well I got me hair all combed out all ready to go you see? But Miss used to take me out into here, to the teachers cloak room and and er er plait my hair up again and s say to me, I'll take it out before you go away Isa, because there was It wasn't a clean place in Kirkwall . Such a thing's never heard of nowad days I don't think. So You said that there wasn't an upstairs downstairs kind of thing at all then? Well I didn't feel it. I never I never had that feeling. We certainly were like being in the army more or less, and er there was the head servants and erm the under servants, you know? But it was er we all sort of had a respect for each other and each other 's jobs, but there was none of this erm upstairs downstairs and running frightened for people or anything like that. We all kept our place but we all It was As I said, just as if they gave you credit for what you could do. It's in er Well how can I describe it to you? But we never were made to feel inferior or er erm anything like that. I never I was never made to feel that way anyway. I just get so annoyed at this English women that wrote that book, Upstairs Downstairs, you certainly th th th We know that the butler and the cook are boss, you know. They're the They're the head ones and they're place in you're sort of in charge. But you don't rub up against that horrible feeling. What was society i in Orkney just before you left, you said you were a young girl and you left about nineteen nineteen. Yes. Was there er was there a big gap in society in Orkney, were there You know were the rich were rich and the poor were poor? Oh yes, dreadful. Far worse than anything I ever met in the south. And er there r there are no real er gentry in Orkney you see, and you'll always find that if anybody gets a a a Well as I said to one boy here, I said to him look here I said your old grandfather worked in that shop till his backside was hanging out his brigs. And I said that's the reason that you can get a car anytime you want it. I said I've lived lo long enough to know that. I said And I always say that it's the Orcad Hello. Ah,. Sit yourself down Mrs . Aye. Now then, young lady, what can we do for you Now, it's today? I've had a terrible pain in my arm for maybe six weeks, and right down. Now, the last couple of weeks, this is, er I just thought, och that'll be . And I've had pain right down the bottom of my back, down my leg and right round here. Oh dear goodness. The dry rot's set in. The dry rot's set in. The the pain goes . It's right right down. It's right the tips of your fingers? Aye. Aha. Up here and right down Aye. but this is even worse I could Aye. hardly bend, you know. That's right. And it went right down there It goes right, right down the top bit of your leg and comes right round and then it comes round here and the top. That's right. Aye. Aye. Now then, just tw okay now, just keep, stand here and tell me when I come to the good bit. Now then, see that wee ? Aye, that's That's a good bit is it? What about that? the last that's . That's sore . Oh,. And that one as well. Aha. Now then, let's, let's Aye. I felt it then. Just in there. Aha. in, in through that bit? Not so bad? We'll so soothes that soothes right down. soothes you right. Aha. I'm not gonna poke about, right? Aha. I know what's happened. Oh well, that's good. This, this, this a neuralgia you've got. Is that what it is? That's what it is. Aha. That's what it is. This, this coming down here, that's the big nerve Right . at the bottom of the back Yeah. and down into the top of the leg. Aha. And a wee bit . And why it comes round here. And I thought, oh, I wonder what this is? It's the same with this one here. It comes right down your arm, right down to the tips of your fingers. That's right. Aye. Cos I thought, och, . I think it's about time I'm calling because Yeah. Och. get . Cos it was really quite bad Quite . and I don't usually Yes, oh it's, it's a you know with it's a very severe pain. It's like a toothache. So it is and it goes . It's right inside the nerve. Isn't that ? That's wh that's why it's so sore. Oh. And it doesn't matter what you do, it doesn't matter how you Aye or anything, Powers up, powers down, bed. D doesn't matter. And we were, and I was beginning to wonder is it something to do, you know how it tells you, maybe if you swallow there's ? No. You know how it ? And I thought now No. No. No. No. No. It I'd better go and see, you know, because I No. No. No. It it's take my every day . Yes. Aye. No it's er that's er that is, it's actually quite a common thing. Is it? Aye. Right. I mean it's painful, I mean it's not that this Oh aye, it is painful but I thought it's not going away so I'd better go and see about it. That's right. You're bet you're better knowing what it is. Aye, because I've, I've gone on for weeks with it, you Mhm. know? Mhm. Right. Now. This whole thing . No. Well, I keep saying it's a muscle, but I thought I'd No. No. No. M better You get folk in their, in their thirties and forties with this With the same thing? Aye. It's, it just er I'm not sure what happens, I, I think what happens is that the, the circulation into the nerve Aha. gets blocked somehow. Oh. Aha. And you're not getting the proper circulation down through So . the nerve, so it's sending the wrong messages back up. I didn't know that . Aye. And you, you're getting this And you're getting the pain. And it feels absolutely terrible, especially in the cold mornings. That's right. If you go outside in the cold mornings Aha. and it feels all as if it's numb? It does. Aye. Mhm. And it, it's just right up my shoulder here . Just here. That's And right. and there and right down And right down to my fingers. right down. Mhm. With one, one man said I used to put, in the cold mornings I used to put my other hand at the bottom to see if I could get heat, but he couldn't touch his fingers because they were so tender. Aye this was frozen to me, That's right. this hand, you know? And he just wanted to get the heat in so he kept his other hand round about it. I couldn't , So it's I mean it's not, it's not just yourself. But it is Aha. a painful thing. Oh, it is painful right enough. Now I've given you some good tablets for this Yeah. to help to unblock the circulation and to kill the pain. Aha. Now they are, because there're two things in them, they're quite strong. Never take them on an empty stomach. No, even with my breakfast. Mm. Cup of tea, with Yes. a bit of toast. Yes. Aye. With a biscuit. I'm the same Right. with that other one too. Right? You know how it That's . says on it Yeah. you know, to take? Not to take but I never take it Aye. before my breakfast Well then, you get started on that or with water. and that'll do you the world of good. Right then. Thanks Okay? very much Doctor . Right Mary? Thank you. Right. Cheerio now. . Cheerio. And this is where the second proposal is, that, there is again confusion between having a joint pol erm, a, erm, a joint policy group at chief officer level, and J C P T, and that again those should as it were combined, but that the arrangement could be s could be erm, kept as small and tight to encourage effective action as you move into joint commissioning, and that is bringing your budget alongside that of the Health Authority, and would be the best way to get erm, the best leverage on services that you can across that divide. Below that level, colleagues, thirdly, and you may be less interested in this, erm, but the, because this is very much at the level of, of officers, at least from the statutory bodies. The proposal in the review is that you probably will need to keep your joint care teams, your JCTs, which tend of course to be professionally and officer dominated, but there are strong feelings throughout the county, and one has to remember the run up to local government, erm, the local government commission is on, strong feelings especially from the voluntary sector, but also from the district councils, that there could be renewed dynamism at the local level, in terms of local care teams. Finally, Chair, erm, progress in terms of care in the community. We've been through a lengthy process of planning in paper, and production of lengthy community care plans, very much fine words and aspirations, we now need to bring er, er, the future means, especially in the context of resource constraint, means actually bringing the money alongside the proposals. That means joint commissioning, you have an example later on in your agenda in relation to learning disability services, I think it's items nine, nine and eleven, erm, er, perhaps the most controversial part of the proposals that I've, I've put before the authorities, is that you don't expect the structures for joint care planning to carry the full weight of joint commissioning when you're talking about main budgets. They're a little bit frail for that. Erm, and my proposals have what some have described as a rather complex structure, where your joint planning arrangements are down the one side, and the commissioning, largely the responsibility of statutory authorities is on the other. Erm, my proposal is that you keep them separately. The final word I would say to you that from the brief glance I've had of the responses of the consultation appeared around a dozen. I'm biased of course, and I get the impression that most people support the proposition, perhaps, er, two major, erm, contributions erm, feedback reports at some length, appear to question them. There's particular questioning about my proposition that joint commissioning erm, should remain distinct from I think, the joint planning arrangements. Er, I think that reflects the, a certain unrealism out there in the world, and that is the notion that you are likely to entrust major decisions about mega-millions er, of money, er, to a much broader arena for discussion. Chair, that concludes the report, so I'm very happy to answer any, any comments or questions is you wish me to do so. Thank you. Well, Chairman, I think it's most useful, and I would hope that you would endorse that we have set the recommendations, and I'm not quite sure which sight over that in the consultation period. But it does , this is a the er, comment. Er, Professor did say final words of aspiration, and I shan't talk on aspirations, I was interested in it, and although I talked the empirical linguis linguisism . I must admit Chairman, I think it would be useful if the language was fractionally improved. I, I do find specifiably embryonic, with respect, extraordinary. I, I think it could have been just put into user friendly English. It seems unlikely that I'm to construct a generation of broad based,supporters of . There's no relationship, created intimately on my . Er, have, having that criticism gentlemen, for which I apologize, I, I, I think it is a most useful, but I do think a little bit of future,holding on might be helpful. Erm, is it, is it the intention to run separate applications to debt, are we at that stage? And if it is, I would so move, because I think extremely sluggish. I mean, what I was going to say, from what I've picked up from some of the comments from some of the district, district councils' consultation it makes me wonder if they're capable of actually taking on the role of social services in joint commissioning. But anyway, a lot of the detail, a lot of the detail seems to have been around the, the, the words that have, have, have been used in the document, but I'll ask Paul to specifically respond to that. Well I'll, I'll do so briefly. Erm, I think the Director has advised me, and he's had more experience at these matters not to respond to that, and but, I, I, I think I'm obliged to say, to respond in two ways. One is to say mea culpa, erm, and the other one though is, What is about me? What about me? I can vouch for you. You're to blame. And the other one is, now this is something I heard on erm, Radio F M yesterday, where apparently Richard Strauss was challenged about the complexity of r of a piece of work, and er, he responding by saying, the devil I cannot make it simpler. Erm, on the grounds that the substance he was dealing with was complicated, and I think, erm, colleague is right to reprove me for some of the language. But the plain fact is, and genuinely I mean this, er, er, erm, if it were as simple working across the boundaries between yourselves and the Health Authority, between yourselves and the private sector, with the voluntary sector, and the great army of unpaid helpers if it was that simple, erm, then we would have moved a long way along that line towards implementation of a humane and caring care in the community twenty years ago, when these debates first started. And I would suggest to you, it's because it's complicated, and forgive me if I haven't made it more simple, but that's one reason incidentally, why in my document, I kept commissioning, the business of doing, and making the kind of hard choices that your committee's had to make this morning, because resources will always be limited, separate from discussing everything that people would like to do, because they don't always run together. You end up with talking shops, and that's been one of the troubles I think, with the arrangements for joint planning. But thank you for giving me the hope, coat peg to hang some further comment. Okay well I think pro I think you've just specifiably embryonic Alright, now is that the only one? I think if had he, had he hadn't moved, and offered a recommendation, now is there any dissent? No. That's agreed. Okay, just a final item, I think, before we, we break, thank you Paul, break for, for lunch, and that's to go back to, I had a request from Derek to speak on Oak Farms Not to speak, to listen. To listen right. If we could just particularly pull that item out, erm, which is three, one, little two. Mr Chairman, can I ask this for people have got a, er, another meeting at quarter past two, Appendix C we are going to be in awful difficulty, we've got an education P A G, and I know Gill's involved in that, we do have a problem. Well, I'm, I'm, I don't have a problem. No, I can ring in work and say I'm not going in this afternoon, er, I mean, but it is, it is, er, self discipline exercised by members when we do talk about issues on the agenda. Erm, that's why we're at the stage and haven't passed three one yet. But if we can turn, because, because Derek did, did request to come along on this specific item, er, and it's the, the yellow papers, er, on Oak Farm . Chair, if I can, if I can speak to it from a financial point of view, this is the scheme where we have been successful in bidding for the European Rural Development Fund grants. Erm, it was a scheme which was in your capital programme to start in nineteen ninety four, ninety five, I E, next year, not in the current year's programmes. But in terms of the preparation for that, in bidding for grant aid, and it was very much tied into a successful bid for grant aid, that was forthcoming but only on the grounds that the scheme was committed by the end of December. Erm, and as a result of that, we did, er, Chair, seek erm, urgency powers to give that commitment for the scheme and we did it by er, forgoing a scheme within the current year's capital programme, and exchanging this. So we moved the scheme to next year's capital programme into this year's capital programme, erm, very much a scheme on children's services, which is also in these papers, where it was at that stage fairly clear that it would not commence during the current financial year. Erm, the reason and the urgency that applied was very much to ensure that we did attract the Rural Development Fund grant. Erm, the scheme itself is one which is very much in mind with er, various policies that you've had put in front of you, in terms of er, provision er, for this type of scheme for people with learning disabilities. It ties in with exactly the sort of development which you're doing in rural settings for learning disability and it attracts grant because of its er, its ability to show an element that is training people towards future employment. Erm, that's the reason Chair, er, on that, and I hope that members will accept the action that has been taken. Erm, as I say, it wasn't taken in any way to circumvent your discussion on the project, it was very much one to ensure that we didn't lose the offered grant. I, I'm getting nods round the table, I don't like, I don't think there's any, sorry Derek yes? Does the direct thing to any good? I'm just, I'm just hear to say this,our directions actually for this area, is now nice it to have this keeping separately, in and fully supporting that, you know, it, it, it does and I'm very pleased with it, so Is somebody prepared to move that, the recommendation that we support the action? Yes Okay. Shall we break for lunch? When do people want to come back? I would like us, no if we could do it to quarter to two, then I'd be very pleased, item M could be put on, put on the top One thirty, one thirty Well I'm, I'm in a mixture, mix of expressed views, is, is one thirty or quarter to two? One thirty One forty five One thirty Sorry about that, but I've got to go to work. I mean, I'd can always forward the details anyway. Well, I'm in the Committee's hands? Yes, we know Sorry, go as it is, Go as it is We go back then to C mar item C, and that's item one, Planned Resource Centre, Joe, I'm not seeking to close down on discussion about item er, three, one and three, three but in view of the discussion we took this morning, you took this morning about the capital building programme and referring it to er, P A G, may I suggest that they both go that way, unless you have any particular comments to add to. I'm not advising you, you are happy with that. Yes, okay. Yes. That's on the twentieth isn't it? Yes, er, Yes Two thirty hang on, twentieth, at two thirty, you know. Yes. Okay is that agreed then, that those two items are adjourned? Yes. Thank you. Meeting on the twenty If we can move over the page then to three, little two, appendix D. Thank you Chair. I think several, several references have been made to the importance of the agreement with the health authorities, and recognizing that the agreement is a joint process. It is a condition to us receiving the special transitional grant, and as we carried out last year, with drafting the agreement, we have a very short period of time in which to put the agreement together. It has to be sent off to the Department of Health on the fourteenth of this month. So you have there before you, members, a draft agreement which itemizes the, the main components. The first one is the existing arrangements on nursing home care, really reviewing the process, and members will recognize that the arrangements that were agreed in the first agreement with Health Authority related to gaining permission from the Health Authority before our placing nursing homes. That has been re re reviewed through the year, and the process somewhat simplified, and now seems to be working well. The other point that raises from the agreement is that we have to agree, agree a purchasing plan with the Health Authority particularly relating to nursing home care, and that purchasing plan at the moment is still at the draft stages because as Mike referred to earlier, we have no information from the Department of Health on the percentage of the funding to be spent in the independent sector. The other proviso of course, is our commitment to ninety, nineteen ninety four, and nineteen ninety five, not having arrived at the end of the financial year yet, we're still in the position of having to forecast what those commitments will be. The existing commitments for funding nursing home places, that's the second item, and again that, that does require some further work. The disputes procedure, that has been in place for some time, and enables us to resolve disputes locally, if they cannot be resolved locally, then they are referred up through the management systems. In the case of practitioners, who are now included in the disputes procedure, that's, that is then referred up to the Family Health Service Authority. The major item for work this year is the Department of er, sorry the District Health Authority's responsibility to providing specialist palliative care. Now the responsibilities for terminal care do rest with both authorities, er, the original D S S er funding that was transferred, did include an element for terminal care in nursing and residential homes. Although the ex the special allowance was actually withdrawn, but nevertheless, the responsibility for generally dealing with it, was picked up by the local authority. However the specialist provision, the specialist palliative care remains the responsibility of the District Health Authority, and they have received extra funding for hospice work this year. A major piece of work is to make sure that the assessment processes do allow us to deal with er, people who are requiring specialist palliative care, not only at the hospice, but in the form of out-reach work, and one project that is proposed is some use of joint finance to help dovetail the work on assessment, er, from the Health Authority front with that provided by Social Services. So that we do have a integrated assessment process. Referrals to hospital social work teams for people leaving hospital has been referred to earlier. We do have er, performance targets, they seem to be working well, er, ninety percent figure was given, that does seem to be holding up. There haven't been any major er, examples of er, bed blocking in, in the, in the county, so that part of it seems to have worked er, smoothly. However, we do need to recognize that the staffing requirements are there, making sure that the assessments are done on time, and that people are discharged from hospital. It's worth mentioning too, that during the year, er, Dr Tim , the general practitioner, who is seconded with er, Social Services, has been doing work on hospital discharge, making sure that the arrangements are, are working, and his reports have been picked up by the respective authorities, and, er, there has er, a sort of action plan has been put together, which is, which is intended to try to improve the er, existing hospital discharge arr arrangement, making sure that people are discharged from hospital and that the er, right type of care is available for them in, in the community. Monitoring procedures. The erm, importance of monitoring procedures cannot be over-stressed because enable, to enable us to actually find out if these er, arrangements are working properly we do have to monitor the arrangements that are in place, and we have to provide details of monitor important for the members' benefit, er, explaining how the budget is er, is being spent, and also bringing in information about the number of assessments, the levels of assessments, and all the other aspects that er, that make a new system work. It is important that we continue that monitoring process, and it will not be until the end of the financial year, that we have the full picture of the workload, and the financial implications for the first year of er, care in the community and the new arrangements. The joint training programme has been extremely important, and nice to mention that we've trained, on a joint basis, over three thousand people, in the er, use of the new arrangements development of the assessment er, procedures and continue to provide training to people where it's, where it's essential. Moving on to some of the aspects of the agreement in a bit more detail. Erm, collaborative working er, use of joint commissioning for HIVAs, alcohol misuse, drug abuse, community mental health services, services to people with learning disability, and services and disability resource centre, very important. Continuing nursing care, it's important to stress here, that the continuing nursing care, the arrangements have relied to some extent on the use of joint finance to ensure that the Health Authority has been able to meet during the year the extra workload, and er, the budget settlement that they have, er, is actually being discussed at the moment with a view to the picking up some of those costs on a continuing basis. It's important too to stress that we did originally set out to divert ten percent of those people from residential and nursing homes into care in the community packages. That has been successful Chair, during the course of the year, we're three quarters of the way through, but our monitoring information shows that we've easily reached that ten percent target, and that does fit in equally with the work we'll be describing a bit later on, the Enterprise Agency is, is working on. Continued implementation of community care, and making sure that we do carry on developing it, ensuring that people have the choice is going to be an important part of the agreement, and it's also important that the joint finance, or some, some joint finance is kept as er, work for community care so that we are able to respond to er, events that turn up that aren't necessarily expected. Home owners forum and the use of diversification, will be mentioned in the agreement. It's important that home owners are recognizing that there is an over- provision of residential care in the county, and that they are responding and diverting some of their resources, or discussing how they may well, er, divert some resources into home based er, packages of care. I think that covers most of the items in the agreement, erm, with some identification of new work that needs to be done during the year, but recognizing that during the course of the year, we have succeeded in following the main points from the agreement that was, was put forward er, I think, it was December this time last year. And er, that we have, we have been largely on target with those items that were put forward, as has been the objectives and, and some of the targeting of the agreement itself. Yes, yes, I mean, the third point in terms of the erm, the er, the agreement itself, in addition to the information from the Department of Health, and of course the commitment for ninety four, ninety five, er, is the question of, of the budget. Until that budget is actually er, settled, it's difficult to be definitive about the actual amount of money that's available for the purchasing plan for ninety four, ninety five. Thank you Chair. Comments? No comments? Sorry John, but there's no specific reference to discharging people from hospital with mental illness. Er, that's a, a, a, problem in many parts of the country. I've not heard of any problem in Shropshire, but I take that is covered by this? It is, yes. Okay. Agreed, thank you. We move then to appendix E, which is er, capital programme progress report. Chairman, it is there for your information, I'm not certain we've got a representative of property funding, but try and deal with any comments as they come up. Just mention Chair, that there They're here all this morning, but they had to go for another meeting. The item at the bottom of page one on Highfield House of course, now has switched between years, so it would be a, over start in ninety four, five. Yes, any comments on that paper? No, okay, thank you. We move to er, F, er, item five, bed numbers in old peop persons' homes, update. For your information. You needn't try and stop the delivery their end. Try to tell these managers it was their end. I just thought it followed on the next page there Yes, got it, yes we've got it. One says seven to eight, one says seven, seven five Right, it does indeed I'll explain that Chair, as we go through it. Okay At this suite, then it's three. G G Chairman, if I could just pick up a deliberate accuracy rather than Are we still taping here? In terms of yes we do show er, er, a figure of in the current year of seven hundred and seventy five basics which is an odd sort of figure on the, the monitoring report. You will bear in mind that we have closed three homes during the course of this year, and we always planned to do that in phased fashion, therefore, the equivalent number of beds available within the current year is the seven hundred and seventy five that's shown there. It does take account of those beds that were available in those three homes during the current year up until the time they closed. Erm, hence the difference, and erm, the average cost has therefore been worked on the basis of beds that were available, and indeed . In general Chair, I'm conscious of the time, so I won't dwell on it in any detail, this is essentially something at looking at the costs of running your homes, and making two comparisons. One, a comparison of the costs in similar authorities, and we've taken those that are in your audit family group from the Audit Commission, erm, and those are shown in appendix one, and a comparison of costs as to what we are currently paying to buy places for people for residential care of the elderly in the independent sector. Erm, that is the, I would stress, it's the maximum contribution that we agreed to make, not necessarily the charges that those homes are levying. There is a facility in that for people who choose a home that has a higher charge, to arrange a third party to make up the difference, and we have a number of those, those type of contracts. The position, just very quickly Chairman, is that our costs are very much in line with the lower end of our planning group of authorities. On the list you see in appendix one, there are six there that are showing charges lower than ours, although I'm not sure, one of the Dyfed, and I'm not sure how they differentiate between normal and high, in terms of er, occupancy, I suspect it's in line with our low dependency, high dependency definition in the private sector, and you'll see in the report that we do say that far and away the majority of people coming into your own homes are in the high dependency category. Erm, so we are at the lower end of the authority charges. The other thing that's important to bear in mind which is in the report is you're not necessarily comparing exactly like with like, when you compare your provision with what we're currently buying in the independent sector. Virtually all of the respite care that is provided, is provided in your own homes, we are getting some increase in using independent homes for respite care. But quite clearly this is a more expensive use of beds in residential establishments, when people simply come in for a matter of days or week or two weeks, rather than coming in on a permanent basis. I think there is some indication in the independent sector of the over-provision, in that they are now more ready to take people at those standard prices for respite care. Erm, but at the moment, the majority of that you provide, as indeed, for emergency admissions and assessment admissions erm, with considerable use made within your own homes on that. We also use those homes as centres for day care, and the financial effects of that are estimated and taken out of these calculations, but I think it's important for members to remember that your residential homes aren't purely and simply providing only residential care, they are also centres for day care in that particular area. Erm, the difference in terms of cost to us is in no small part due to the fact that if somebody comes into one of our homes, we have a statutory national method of assessing their contribution, and they don't ex access the full range of D S S benefits. If they choose to go into an independent sector home, they, and they have a low level of income, they do access what is called the residential care allowance, which is further income support benefit of up to forty five pound a week. So there is that, still that difference between the two forms of provision. We, when we introduced the community care element, looking at the budget earlier in the day, we did also refer to the Audit Commission report on that, and again it is quite clear from the Audit Commission report, that it remains a government expectation that we will continue to review our provision, that we will compare it as is done in this paper, with others and particularly the independent sector, and an expectation that we will rationalize where necessary, and hence the proposals over the period of time, that are in your budget package for reviewing and rationalizing only. But the main point on the comparison I think here Chair, is that your homes are not expensive, when compared with similar provision and there's still some unevenness in terms of funding between your homes and the independent sector. Thank you,m may I just say to Committee, that this report is before you at the request of George . I've talked with the Director to make sure that it was taken. It was important And, it was important, any comments? No Noted, thank you. Always try to be you know, helpful Helpful, Yes, yes,er, we go into item seven , er, marked H, I think it's residential nursing home. Chairman, this, this is simply a, a matter of report to you at er, this point in time about events which occurred, which received publicity, where we had to step in because a private home pr went into receivership. The one thing that I would want to draw your attention to is paragraph three, er, point seven, where you'll see that the costs of running The Beeches, during the period of, of transition as it were, was five thousand eight hundred and thirty, of which a maximum of three thousand and seventy six may be recovered from the residents. Er, so there was a cost to the County Council, but I'm assuming that members would support stepping in, in these circumstances. oh, yes Malcolm, Malcolm, please. Yes, Chair, I, I'd like to propose a formal to this collection of recommendations. Now I know that er, some of the details are in the confidential section of the, of the agenda, I shall be very careful not to breach confidentiality, erm, but the, the proposal is this, that erm, we make representations to ensure that the receiver considers the welfare of residents er, in making arrangements to wind up the affairs of private residential homes. Now, firms do go bankrupt, we know that, er, but in this case, the sort of, of the thing they're trading in, is, is far more precious than er, holidays abroad, or, or three piece suites you ordered six months ago, Time shares or whatever. And er, they can't just close the doors and put a notice in the window. Recognition has to be made of that, erm, of course, that involves costs, and it in involves inconvenience to receivers and, and maybe other creditors but it is essential that er,whoever organizes the receivers, and I'm not sure who it is, whoever guides them in the way they work, takes account of this, and indicates to them that they must consider the welfare of residents. They, I can tell you the, erm, official receiver comes under the Department of Trade and Industry. Right, so if I write to the Secretary of State for Trade and In or is it the President for the Board of Trade? Yes The President of the Board of Trade, I think. Is four, four seconded then as far as the recommendation? Yes And again, is there any dissention from , that's what we do, no, okay. Dear Mike, I think we should er, compliment the staff on, on, on the work they did. Yes Okay, if we move on then to,joint collaborative which we've dealt with, which was I, er, item J, then item nine, adults' learning disability service. Approval of grants. Chair Chairman, you, you have in a sense already seen this item as part of your budget this morning, er, this is the transfer of payment from an appropriate sum er, other than from the Health Authority, to er, the Local Authority. It's in keeping er, with as it were, the legalities of the situation, and also reflects the fact the County Council is now the lead agency for services with learning disability. You've got a list attached to the report, which sets out the details of the payments and the er, locations of the various establishments referred to. Move the recommendation Can I ask a question? I, I, I notice from the schedule that, I mean a tremendous difference in cost per person if you just add, divided the people into, which suggest the way you're being work out on a basis of individual needs, and what the carer provides. Will that continue to be the case, or are we looking at some kind of block grant formula here? With winners and losers again? I don't, I don't believe so. No, we, we're looking at individual cases still, and, indeed they will be reviewed as ind individual cases in the future, with the Health Authority clearly recognizing that it hasn't much of a responsibilities on them. Okay, there are some very high costs obviously in this. Yes. Any other points? Is it a recommendation? Agreed? Can we move on then to the Social, Social Care Enterprise Agency, marked K. Chairman, can we have your guidance on this, we have a report and we have a short video, by which I do mean a short video, do you wish to see the video, or do you wish to deal directly with the report? Can we see after, when other peo members have to go to D T O first. After the Committee. It lasts, it lasts eight minutes, Chairman. It lasts eight minutes. It would be Chairman, to see it afterwards. For those who can stay to see it. Ah, but it isn't going to make any difference to Yes, fine, just as long as we're going to see it. Yes, alright, fine. The erm, Social Care Enterprise Agency. The Agency's work strategy has, has been made available to members, and erm, I think if we look back to a previous Committee, where the er, information was provided, that we had been successful. Er, fifteen er, schemes that were actually funded by the Department of Health out of a hundred and fifty bids, and the funding available, a hundred and fifty thousand pounds per year, er, up to the period er, ending thirty first of March ninety five. And under two, on the, on the paper, there is er, a statement of the er, objective of, of the Social Care Enterprise Agency, to develop the independent sector to the point where it can provide the range, type and quantity of services which will satisfy the purch purchasing authorities for community care needs, essentially daycare, domiciliary care and respite care. And I think it's important to make the distinction that the independent sector includes both the voluntary sector and er, the profit and er, sorry the, not the profit making organizations er, the, the staff of the Agency consists of er, two officers and an admin administrative er, staff, and erm, they have been involved in a variety of er, different activities. There is a, there is a management team, which consists of erm, officers from the Social Services Department, and, and those from the agency itself. Er, I actually chair the er, management team, Bill pa Bill 's a member, and John who's from the Planning Section. So that, that's the er, it, they're the arrangements for the, for the Agency itself. Now the activities. What was done here is to list er, a lot of the activities that the Agency has, has been involved in, er, to, to date. The, the video does actually illustrate the way in which some of these services have been developed, and it includes some comments from people who are actually receiving services. They're very wide ranging, and if er, Chair, if members would, would just like to look down at the list of er, options, without going through er, each one individually, but they do range from er, work with er former cottage hospitals, er, front room day care, the further development of home care cooperatives, work er, for people who er, have spinal injuries, who have intake, and er, an interpreter service for, for people who have a hearing loss, and particularly er, helping er, the Shropshire Disability Consortium to set up an interpreting service in the county. And then er, a whole range of other initiatives. It's important to stress the relationship with Social Services, in that the Agency staff who link the very wide range of people from Social Services, often those people who hold local budgets and are in a position, using the funding that we have allocated to diverse things, to come up with creative solutions for, for er, keeping people at home rather than in, in institutional care. So for example, the front room day care project, and er, the project in Bishop's Castle, which actually includes day care in a public house, and a number of other things I could do with some of that care. Shut out, councillor which have, yes, used local facilities, and relied rather than on purpose-built er, accommodation, using those, those, that accommodation that is readily available. Er, it is important too, to stress that the Agency is acting as a bridge between the purchasing er, authority, the Social Services Department, and the er, independent sector, and that er, it's also important that er, too, that er, in many cases, er, the provider's income er, will, will not just come from Social Services, but it may be that people are purchasing their own care, if, if they're not eligible for public, public's er, help through, through funding, and therefore the scheme is much wider than just looking at the purchasing intentions of the, the Social Services Department. Just to conclude, erm, I mentioned earlier that er, members of the, of the Committee have already received a copy of the Agency's first work strategy. The intention there Chair, is to, is to do further work er, to consolidate on the work that's been achieved during the, during the year, but also to set out a programme for the er, following period of time, er, from er, April nineteen ninety four until March nineteen ninety five, so that erm, members of the Committee are able to comment on the, on the intentions er, on the draft strategies that are being put forward as a result of the review that takes place er, following the first year's activity. Thank you. Thank you, comments? Can I just ask if you and Paddy would decipher the fourth line of eighteen for me please Sorry about that formal whip Start sentence a bit of Self abuse, won't have seen them. Ah, that's, there's a, there's a mistake there. Or who have been abused. Or instead of O I don't normally pick things out just because of odd wordings, and start checking it out. Sorry about that, could I just ask briefly the difference between a cooperative and an agency? One starts with a C, and the other with an A. Well you might be right. Brilliant, brilliant. Fourteen, fourteen is a cooperative, and sixteen you've put agencies, are they the s the same thing? No No they're not the same thing, er, cooperatives are er, organizations of workers who come together to provide services, and the County Council has actually provided some support and enabled them to get started. Er, home care agencies may well be private home owners who, who divert or they're existing, existing er, agencies that provide home care. There's a profit element It's a profit element, yes. Oh, there is a profit element, Yes Oh, I see Not in the cooperatives. Not in the cooperatives. The other difference, Chair, if I may, was the cooperatives that currently put in Shropshire, they are essentially of self- employed people, who are working together in a cooperative, and there's certain advantages that that presents them with. Whereas the agencies tend to be agencies employing people directly and then marking sense. Ah, yes. Any further comments, points? Okay, thank you. Er, moving on then to the tabled items which should be placed L, marked L. Item eleven, selling to the hospital resettlements. It's concerning request, Chair, to replace the first few pages Oh, right. Er, the following three pages of the papers sent out to members still stand, but there is some confusion in the numbering on er, the first page of the rest of the report, and there was a section missed out on the second page of the report which er, we've inserted in the new papers there. Second the report? Could I just say Chairman? Adrian who's responsible for resettlement is here if members have any questions. I have a question. Mm It's about on, on one of the pages It's er, called revenue shortfall, four hundred and ninety eight thousand. Er, I can't quite make it out, but if the erm, the Health Authority doesn't seem to be providing as much as the scheme is going to cost, is that right? So where's the rest coming from? That, Chair, is the nub of the problem with that scheme in terms of a closing sum sort of diverting previous Shropshire residents back into Shropshire. Erm, and we put to them they can't take a simplistic approach of saying this is what's to cover the cost in selling from there and that is all that's available to place people more appropriately in the community. Have you just left that in? Yes, er, erm, er, to demonstrate all the previous er, developments that we, we've undertaken and community care is not the cheap alternative, it's er, it's considerably more expensive, er, four hundred and eighty now and four hundred thousand represents a difference that we've estimated between the care coming in from hospital, and in care er, envisaged by providing for the residents in the community. How that er, shortfall is to be met, erm, when this er, paper was written er, the knowledge that the Health Authority have had somewhat of a windfall recently, erm, er, which er, is, is, er, under development discussion at the moment. Whether the increasing in capitation that the Health Authority perceive could actually be used er, to, to meet the shortfall that is identified in this paper. In pr proof terms Chairman, we want to have a go at the District Health Authority and we want to have a go at the Regional Health Authority. Yes, we've got proof. Okay, moving on then to item twelve, er, marked M, the Children's Plan, ninety four, ninety five. Yes, Chair, erm,the Committee is now required under Department of Health directives to make specific policy statements and identify the resources implications formula, by way of a Children's Service Plan. And there's a considerable amount of work that's gone in into the erm, production, erm, of what you have before you now. We approached it on the basis of er, collecting information on the Children in Need definition which a, er, a paper came before you when the Children's Act was implemented, and that gives local discretion to authorities to, to define Children in need. So the six categories, or the six headings that are contained in paragraph one, one, er, comprise er, that Children in Need definition, and where the, these services in future er, will be concentrated. Under each, each heading, erm, we have set out the priority objectives together with an outline strategy statement of achieving each objective, and er, we have in the department a lead officer for each of those headings. The next stage of the exercise is in fact to er, put together a financial profile er, identifying A, how er, a shift of resources er, can be achieved or identifying what additional er, resources are needed. The theme throughout the er, paper, er, and the strategies is to er, divert from residential er, provision, to more community based provision. And you'll see that theme er, in, in a number of headings. If I can pick up specifically the point that er, Mrs was making this, this morning, under the children looked after heading, under strategy, it's priority objective one and strategy two, you'll see in there that it is the intention to put in some two hundred thousand pounds for er, for community er, based resources. At the present time, the children looked after at Boat is seventy percent of the total of the Children's Services budget, and therefore, there is er, a considerable er, sum of money being divested erm, in, in this area of work. Where's this figure please? Sorry, it's on page, little, the numbering is confusing again, it's on page one I'll look at Yes, I've got that, I've got the heading, but I haven't got the figure, er of two hundred. It's about strategy, it is the second column, Second to last Second column, and it is the second paragraph, where it says to provide contingency plans to improve seven section, seventeen budget by two hundred thousand pounds . Tell us Mr Chairman, it's the second to last of the yellow sheets, I mean the block of sheets, the next to last but one in the, in the of, start at the back. A training course will be provided, er, Sorry Chair, this is not the easiest of documents Sorry, I've picked it up, sorry about that. That figure has referred to preventative services. Whilst we're able to implement quite a considerable proportion of the er, objectives without any financial commitment, this particular er, issue does erm, provide us with a considerable test, and members need to know that in order to achieve the move from residential care to community care, we would have to have some ring-fence monies to be able, to enable that shift to, to take place, before the erm, the budget could be reduced on the residential side. So, what I'm saying is we actually need the community services to be in place, er, and I'm referring to such services as under-fives provision, er, increased support to er, to families er, and the children to avoid the need to er, to accommodate those children in care, more provision er, for er, youth justice work. All that comes within this er, this actual figure, but to achieve the shift, we do need some underpinning er, to begin the process. As I say, we're now, we shall now be working on the er, on a financial strategy, so that we've got more detailed costings er, available to us, erm, but I think members will be interested to know that erm, within the next few months there will, we shall be taking part, er, as part of a wider national exercise, in an exercise undertaken by the District Audit Commission, on Children's Services, so that we, I think we shall be in good stead, to have this as a base as a working document for that erm, Audit Commission exercise. Do you want to comment Mrs ? Oh thank you. I'm glad to see the two hundred thousand, though I would have picked it up under, erm, children already erm, over the age of about five, but maybe I've got that wrong. Erm, I suppose there is a fairly broad brush there. Erm, I'd like to, I'm glad you picked up the children looked after by the local authority, but what bothers me is the children in families that are causing concern rather than for those that are actually erm, in care. Erm, they may not be in fact in care, but they are at risk both educationally, behaviourally, and nuisance in the community and things of this kind. Erm, without stigmatizing them, it is possible to identify families where any new addition to the family or youngster coming into it, obviously are children who need erm, extra backup in one form or another, before they reach school age. These are the ones I am particularly anxious about at the moment, erm, now I've put down four different headings on this particular way that I think we could help, erm, and hopefully, if there's two hundred perhaps you'd tell me whether there's two hundred thousand is aimed at perhaps some of it, in, in this direction or not, I don't know? Er, assisted places in playgroups with a wider scope, now in other words, you don't have to be at the end of the line so to speak, you can have help on, er, a much softer criteria. Not, not, terribly sorry Mrs to stop you in full flow, but we haven't got th this money. No but if It's clear, yes. Yes, okay, I accept that, er, thank you. Erm, so playgroups I feel need, erm, particularly for certain children, they need to find assisted places of some sort, because say it's one eighty a session, and they need several sessions a week, if they're to benefit from it, and one eighty or one seventy or whatever the cost is, which I think is round about that figure, erm, is not something that a family normally would have priority, the, the kind of family who has to have erm, needs, special needs anyway themselves. Holiday schemes, in other words, during the Christmas, er, particularly the summer holidays was extremely full in our areas that had these schemes, but it is true to say that some of the children did not pay their full amount. But they were kept going in it, rather perhaps at the discretion of those running the schemes rather than to throw them out, and as a result we did not have a scrap of vandalism in the area during the whole of the summer holidays. It's incredible to say so, but it's proved the case, and I feel very strongly on that as a result. Erm, parent involvement, there is no mention in this report about parent involvement, and I think this is absolutely essential that the, it's often the families who are poor parenting, because they've been poor parent people, and you have succession, and we've gone somewhere along the line, we've got to go down that road. The sort of way we can help is the mother and toddlers groups in this kind of thing, where the parents are involved and inevitably do learn quite a lot erm, about how to function and you know, to play with them, and the things that they enjoy. Introducing a lot of things they've never had before in their lives I'm afraid to say. Erm, and er, sometimes the under-fives provision, er, need assistance in rent. Now, this may sound also, but when you've got to pay five hundred pounds out a year, and you've got to fund raise and do it, often for young families this is a consideration. I, I put that as number four, rather than the first three, which I think are terribly vital, so I would be grateful if these sort of things were taken on board. Just a quick response, Chairman. What the Committee doesn't have the advance er, advantage of, er, is the accompanying documents to the paper that is before them, and I assure Mrs that those first three are covered in the documents and, and the strategies that we proposed. And indeed, fit very well into what we call the section seventeen budget, which is section seventeen of the Children Act nineteen eighty nine, which er, does enable the local authority to provide preventative services, to avoid the need for children to be looked after in care. It ought to be started as quickly as possible, as the child virtually is born. Any further points, comments? Okay thank you. We move on then to placement of young people from Shropshire out-county, marked N. Which is a bit more of the, I think, the discussion we had at last Committee and at the Council. Yes, Chairman, er Sorry. In a sense Chairman, the report stands, I mean I don't intend to add anything further to it, unless members er, really wish me to, it can be accepted. Okay, do you wish members to know Chairman, that you have a meeting arranged for ? No Only certain of them. Erm, if we move on then to item O, teen care. Item fourteen. Yes Chairman, er, during the budget debate at the recent erm, programme advisory groups, members er, had before them, as you have in the budget document, the possibility of selling a number of teen care places to other local authorities. And our members did ask for a more detailed report on the scheme, and this, this report er, set out that scheme in er, in a fuller way. It is a scheme that is er, an alternative to placement in children's homes, for adolescents with severe behavioral and emotional difficulties, erm, whereby er, specialist er, foster parents er, are, are, recruited, they are extensively trained, and er, have the willingness to take on what are difficult and challenging youngsters and er, who are placed with them. The success of the scheme erm, has enabled erm, some sale of places to other local authorities, and if I can just draw your attention to a slight error on page three, there is reference to Powys in two lines, and if you would delete please Powys one, placed in Staffordshire, er, it should read Powys two, placed by Staffordshire. I think from a financial point of view, what is er, of interest, and the economical use of these places as opposed to er, residential care, particularly specialist residential care, where p where we're able to provide er, at a cost of eleven, about eleven thousand two hundred and fifty pounds per child, as opposed to what can be considerable expenditure on er, on specialist out-county places. We currently have twenty nine youngsters erm, in places, erm, with a potential to offer forty three places, and erm, we are continuing to develop the scheme quite successfully. Chair, I want to say, it, it is a success, and er, that it's important to show you how diversion can work. Sorry, Charles, Chair, can we er, in noting the report, also is there some way in which we can, the Committee can convey its appreciation to the people who take on this, must be onerous responsibility er, er, and also can we congratulate the people who thought the scheme up in the first place. There's nothing like enterprise in local government. upon, I agree with you. Peter Well I was just going to say very much the same thing. I think it's an admirable scheme, and it's obviously very cost effective, and, and equal, and I, I think we should be very grateful that there are in fact a few caring people out there, and they're there to take this what could be a particularly onerous job on. What I was interested in at, at the briefing er, for the Committee, was that we don't actually go out and sell this in inverted commas, to other authorities, they come to us, because they've heard it's good practice. Er, which I think is, is excellent, and what I suggest is that we look at trying to get exposed in some of the professional journals really. Particularly as we, we've had a major issue in our budget proposals to do specifically on this, this, but I think if we have good practice in Shropshire, we should be sort of er, shouting it from the rooftops really, as this is very good practice. Is, is it possible to do that Mike? I mean, it's Yes, that's in hand to accompany Can I just quickly ask whether there's any cooperation with the youth service in taking these children out on, what I call a challenging activity like rock climbing, like at weekend residential, because you know, it, it seems cooperation there would be very beneficial I'm sure, in certain types of children who need the physical as well? It's not always possible for the teen care people to actually erm, have that expertise if you like. In other words, they can't go out themselves, perhaps rock climbing, they may have a lot of other attributes, but they haven't that particular attribute. Well presumably with, what we're trying to do is create some sort of alternative family units, we don't want, although, er, laudable what the youth service does, is, we wouldn't want, if they don't want to plugged, clubbable together, if, if, if, if the, the unit could provide that, or provide alternatives to pick up the, the correlation between that and, and ordinary normal family unit, I would hope that that would have been the best way forward, erm, er, because often some youngsters are in this situation because they, they haven't found the, that sort of provision has been helpful for them. Well I don't mean they have to join youth clubs but there is some kind of coordination. I mean, erm, I know my youth officer in my area takes them as individuals where the, they are youngsters who perhaps would benefit from that. He's going outside his brief if you like, he's doing a very good service. But surely Mr Chairman, if, if you want to integrate these people into the family unit they would go along with what the family would normally do. And the more they become integrated, then they would expand out, join the Scouts, the Guides or go to the local youth club, so be part of the, the er, growing up process which they haven't been afforded. That was my understanding and I got it right and discussed it with him Any further points? No sorry gov now let me think. It's called telepathy, yes. Any further points? No, okay, if we can move on then to, where have I got to now, Oh, P P right. Visits to social service establishments. Item fifteen Chair. Fifteen Fifteen sorry. Is that marked? Or just Oh, I'm so I'm sorry Mark. I, I, I think we, we haven't had an overwhelming response No In fact we've had an underwhelming response, I think at this present minute, and so could I put out the er, request again to members er, to consider coming to this seminar. He is very good, Mr , and he has been a county councillor in I think Staffordshire, before the days of pindown I have to er, hasten to add, but he does know both sides of the er, street as it were. One, one point that was made to me is, is it might be, it might be too late for this, but it might be helpful for some staff from residential establishments to actually get to understand what official visits are as well. Er, then there might be some confusion about the role of members, They've been invited They've been invited, well that's great, because I think often, sometimes it's a bit embarrassing for both sides. Okay. So that's er, noting for the diary. Now we do move to P. When is it? Twenty seventh of January. It's down on your pages, it's down on your agenda. It's on the agenda. Item sixteen then, which is visits to social service establishments. Marked P. Mr Chairman, just one quick, and that is it seems to me that there seems to be very few councillors attending. I went to two, and er, my name was the last on the, the form. There should have, there should have been three or four names, and that's, I'm talking about visiting residential homes. It's on, on the report, but it's I mean I don't, do we review the situation? I can tell you, we can certainly tell the er, yes. I mean the periodic, the, the intervals of visiting, and er, who has visited, but I feel very much this is er, an item for members as it were, That's right. members to members, and not perhaps for officers to interfere too much other than to give you background information, and it has been falling off, let me just say that. Mrs , next Can I just make a comment about one section of visiting, and that's when you have to do, er, Brookside, Wellington and Highfield. Doing them altogether, I find difficult to do, apart from the weather point of view, if it could be fitted to two maybe, you know you co you go to somewhere in Church Stretton okay, it's distant enough when you have one place to go, when you do the Wellington section, you've got four, and I find it very difficult to work and chase round to children's homes, to give it any . That's usually when there's three of us visiting. Ah, yes. Yes, but it'd be easier if it was two for the two. It's quite a bit to do on one day, to go and do four. That's the sort of issue Chair, that we shall be able to address on the twenty seventh. Yes, okay, then maybe you can mark that up then, and it might be that we, we might have to circulate all members again to see if they assume the situation of being able to undertake these particular requests er, about the visits. When we went to Telford and Charles, I think we did it in an afternoon didn't we, and that includes every single cul-de-sac in the area. Every road in the area to find the place. Anyway, went to ten o'clock one night , fit him well. Okay, moving on then, erm, where are you, Q Q, which is er, Age concern. Yes, Chairman I, I think members will be aware that er, we have er, always erm, enjoyed a very close relationship with Age Concern culture, and erm, they do invaluable work on behalf older people in the county, and I think like all organizations and in the changing climate, there was a need for them to er, to, to review their situation, and in, in the changing world, and I'm pleased to say that Age Concern recognized that there was a need to er, to adjust their relationship with the County Council, primarily to enable them to, to further develop and take advantage of the funding opportunities that are available now under the new arrangements for care in the community. So arising out of erm, very, erm, tentative discussions with Age Concern, with its officers and with their er, managing er, group, er, this proposal comes before you to enable them to, to become totally independent of the County Council. To be able to continue the activities that they have traditionally undertaken, er, with substantial er, grant and financial support from the County Council. But also to put them in position whereby in the future, as the needs for further services emerge, they will be able erm, to, to contribute with the department for, for those services for that er, appropriate funding. They provide another choice for older people in the er, range of agencies available to meet their needs. Because largely up to the present time in the er, as far as older people are concerned, then the only alternative to the current truth, and direct provider of services, has been the straight private sector. This would put a major voluntary sector provider in the, in the field. indicated Comments? Can I just query the cost of Cloverfield Hospice, I just wondered why that was so much more expensive than the others? Right. Is Cloverfield funded? Thank you, Chair, it's basically been allocated in terms of floor area, and what we've said to Age Concern, is in so far as we continue to provide them with premises, then we will, if we adjust those charges, we will adjust their grant accordingly. So in a sense that's the way the planning is currently allocated, it's allocated on a floor area basis. I suspect Age Concern don't require that but it's there, and they're the sole user of it at the moment. They will ultimately I presume, move into the new centre when it's er, when it's built and available in Whitchurch and it will need amendment at that stage. But on the financial plan Chair, Sorry, before you leave that, I mean, does that, do we still own the premises then? Yes. Sorry, go on. Erm, Chair, on the general financial position, it's, it's what I referred to earlier, as moving from somewhere where there were a direct employer or where we were grant-aiding a voluntary body to get on to a more, ultimately a more commercial footing, where we relate the money that we're paying to the services that are being provided. Erm, Age Concern have recognized that, and wish to move in that direction, although quite clearly, as far as the existing staff are concerned, in the initial move there were certain erm, reservations and wishes and er, and uncertainties which they tried to address in discussions with us and in this paper. And I particularly draw members' attention to top of the second page where you are requested to indemnify Age Concern for any redundancy costs that may arise in the future. I would stress that's redundancy costs in respect of service that employees have accrued whilst they have been directly employed by you. So it's basically Age Concern saying they're quite happy and the staff are quite happy about transferring but they're not happy on taking on board, er, er, potential redundancy liability which has arisen because they will employ these people directly. It is a relatively small sum that you're talking about here because there are not that many employees with long service involved, and so the indemnity is, in our terms not a sizable amount, but I can understand Age Concern's worries in terms of simply pick picking it up as part of transfer, and why we'd certainly recommend it to you. How would we transfer their, their pensions then, all their normal rights and everything else? They, they are entitled, if they elect to do so, to continue to be members of the local government's evaluation schemes, so they are eligible and have applied for membership on it. That report went to Resources sub-committee erm, and they should be allowed access to the plan, and continue their pension scheme. They really are a very vibrant organization, and er, I think we really would wish them well, and, and very pleasing to see them adapting to the new circumstances. The figures are, sorry, Chair. Could I ask Mr Chairman, just as a matter of interest, it's first community care as much as I,, really, erm, what, what if any, erm, alteration will there be to the volunt to volunteers that continue at the moment, will There will be There will be no, no, no difference in any circumstances? The big, the big advantage Chair, and one of the reasons that it appeals to us to, to go along with Age Concern on this is that, as you know, the area of activity in terms of day centre provision in which they are very active, is one whereby on the current grant mechanisms for community care, and our need to spend eighty five percent in the voluntary and independent sector, whilst they were directly employed by us, we couldn't divert a substantial amount of that money in their direction if they wished to develop services. This will enable to do that, and to do it in fashion where it still qualifies er, to attract grant if necessary. I understand that Mr . Okay, Chairman, I, I represent this Committee on the Age Concern County Committee, and I'll keep, keep an eye on it, I've, I'm as active, I'm as active as possible. I think it's a step in the right direction. I think we should erm, wish, wish them well. I think the only difficulty is that bound not the Boundary Commission, the erm, Charities Commission who er, have very awkward rules about things, which er, they could still er, still try to resolve. Okay any further? Is it a recommendation? Is that agreed? If we move on then to item R, which is item eighteen, Bridgenorth Community Hall. Thank you Chairman, erm, I'm not sure Chair, whether there are members still on this Committee who will recall the er, previous erm, proposal for a multi-purpose day centre in Bridgenorth. It was a, a project in the Committee's capital programme where it came potentially within the revenue budget. I know that there is at least one member here who had an interest er, in, that, that time. Erm, for a variety of reasons Chair, that proposal did not go ahead, erm, and I think probably the major reason in that was erm, the County Council's erm, inability to, to meet the cost of the project as it started to, to set up. But that, that wasn't the sole reason, there were a number of factors, but that was the significant one I think. So the project was dropped, the local community in the intervening time had er, picked the p the project up if you like, to provide a community er, resource in the low town area of Bridgenorth. It would obviously would be particularly relevant to, to the Lowtown area, but I think it should also be seen in a, the wider context of Bridgenorth and the surrounding area. It is not exclusively for the use of, of Lowtown as such. Erm, er, the funding for that project which I understand has a total cost in excess of a hundred and sixty thousand pounds, has been met from a variety of sources, er, primarily local, but with a contribution from the County Council through the Leisure Services Committee, and also through the Resources Management sub-committee, and in a, indirect sense, in that the, the, the land transferred to the County Council from the District Council for a particular sum, when the project didn't go ahead, the land went back to the District, and had appreciated in value in the intervening time. But in fact, I think it went back to the District at the er, price that it had Plus any interest accrued in the interim so erm, in, in some sense, it is with the Secretary of State's consent, erm, the land was conveyed back at less than market value as it stood, but erm, er, and I guess there are a variety of views on that particular er, aspect of the situation. Suffice it to say Chairman, in the intervening time the project has gone ahead with considerable erm, er, local support, both in terms of finance, but I think also in terms of the er, the effort that er, particular individuals in the area have put in to make this project happen. I don't think it's too much to say that erm, if they knew now what er, if they knew now what er, they know then what they know now, they'd probably never have embarked upon er, upon the project. They have brought the project to the stage where it is almost completed and only remains for the ba the building basically to be fitted out internally, and they have largely raised the funds to do that, but they are some ten thousand pounds short, and they came to erm, the Department with a request that we erm, assist them with this ten thousand pounds shortfall in the funding. On the basis that this would provide a resource in the Lowtown Bridgenorth area, that I suppose would do two things. It would erm, provide er, a base where activities could take place in that area, but whilst not, if you like, not directly benefiting the Social Services Committee, or the people that then go to it, would indirectly benefit us in that it would be available for youth and other activities in support of the community that have a knock-on effect er, as far as we're concerned. But secondly, would potentially provide an opportunity in future, where Social Services could in its direct role of developing services to assist older people and other clients of the Department, could base those activities, and that without this base available it would be very difficult to respond to the needs of that area. So they are saying please, erm, could you recognize the erm, the tremendous effort that has been made locally, er, and that erm, and recognize the, the value that this resource provides for the future of that community by er, assisting us to complete the project. Erm, er, the only way we could do that Chair, is erm, by use of, of contingency funds and er, one's aware very much of debates earlier in the day about the, the many pressures that the County Council and the Department faces, but erm, I would ask members to, to give very careful consideration to er, assisting to finish this project. Thank you Chair. Peter . I, I would like to support this Chair, and it's a relatively small amount, especially I don't know how much it would, it would cost, but erm, Andy the er, District Youth Officer, did produce er, er, a very much in-depth report erm, to the last of the Southern Area Youth Advisory Committee, erm, showing erm, how much demarcation er, the, the, the actual river does produce, and is very much a relatively deprived area, and I, I think for the amount of money that's involved here, I think in view of what he said then, I don't know the area at all, but er, I, I think he would be erm, very impressed with it. Gilly ? Thank you Mr Chairman. Although I'm not actually on the Committee of the Bridgenorth Community Centre, I'm obviously very closely connected with it, and as we've previously spoken about Age Concern, it is our hope that another day centre for the elderly will be set up once that community centre is up and running, because there are a great deal of elderly in that particular area. I mean, where we're situated in what we call Cellar Street, it's mostly elderly people so hopefully, it, it can be taken up erm, by erm, Social Services in that connection. I also understand from meetings, I'm meeting a group of social workers as I call them, that are dealing with the people with learning difficulties, erm, these are at present taking place in the Castle Hall. This I do know is not, is not at this place successful, not for people concerned with the, the facilities are not really adequate, and I understand that they also would be hoping to take advantage of this community centre. It is as we know going to be grandly opening, it has cost more than we anticipated as Bill's probably said, we found out we had to put the foundations on a raft, because er, It's in the river area, isn't it? Yes, the will be floating in the river when we went down to do the foundations, so it, it has cost a lot more money in, than we anticipated, and certainly in time and effort. And I do plead with this Committee to erm, let this go forward because it does mean that we will get our community centre up and running erm, in the spring with the assistance of this Committee. Erm, I, can I just ask? Has the particular organization applied elsewhere for grants as well? Oh yes, oh yes. And have you received any? Oh yes. Yes Chairman, of the hundred and sixty thousand plus cost, erm, part of the contribution by the major servicing committee, and I understand that they advised me the balance has been made from local contributions, and charitable sources. No, yes, yes, yes, yes. I mean the only comment, the only comment I'd, I'd make in relation to, to, to the scheme in principle I would support it. Erm, I think the agreement er, which is the l the last paragraph on the page, is a bit loose. Erm, But I've got a letter here Mr Chairman. Yes, hang on, hang on let me just, I think that agreement is a bit loose although I'm grateful to to mention those new specific groups er, because I think if, if we're, if we're allocating this sort of money, we would, we would want some er, some guarantees Only later Derek Some guarantees that, that, that, that er, sort of er, day care facility and possibly a facility for people with er, learning disabilities, that there would be room available on a regular basis, I mean it, I, yes That's in the letter I mean, if that, if that reassurance could be given then, then I, I don't particularly have a problem. I think there's no doubt, there's a meeting on Thursday night Mr Chairman, and I'll refer your comments to the meeting. Well I meant to say, if, if, if we, if there is an assurance that elderly people are going to be helped, and there's going to be a day centre there, I think we do handle the elderly pretty much anyway in this county, I would be certainly prepared to support it. He's pushing the boat by those comments isn't he ? Any further view? Well subject to, to that sort of reassurance Yes, I accept that Mr Chairman Yes, erm, are people in agreement with the recommendation? Yes Yes, as long as we get the insurance. Oh yes, Assurance, don't you mean? Assurance, yes Okay assurance, okay if we can move on then to item nineteen, which is motion Evening and Saturday Meetings. Comments? I move that we stay as we are. Yes, I second that. I've never been so popular. Is that why Peter's not come today, is it because I was going to say I support a Saturday meeting particular during the budget process, because it's more easier for me. Okay, well it's status quo, let's move this vote. Those in favour? Status quo Yes I think that's unanimous, dealt with that. The rate we're going we'll be here this evening until he pointed at me. Erm, item twenty, erm, which is advisory group. Can I propose Ted here? Ted 's been proposed, is that's seconded? Seconded. Any further nominations. No, Ted then. If we can move on then to the fourth page, item twenty one, it should prepared to move? No Seconded, those in favour? Against? Abstentions? Six of them. If we can deal with item S. Play on the screen there It's give it away. It can be helped anyway. I haven't heard anything about, I've had no comment from he's basically moving, and er, and Well, we're okay, we can go later , we'll go later. To, yes, we'll go do that . How's that? Didn't know you were back oh, right,yes, we can go back a week. it is yes, yes, not so bad and you? Yes, you missed all the, missed all the planning . Yes, yes, we can put that back to the eleventh, so there's plenty of time, okay. Right . This is the only establishment that's in trouble, er, we have information about other establishments. I'm not saying it's the same s I can use that tonight can I? Okay. We, the Audit Commission advise . Erm this is this is a pet shop in . And erm how long has this shop been going for? be sixty one years. Sixty one years. Since nineteen twenty six. And it's always been actually situated at this very shop here on ? exactly in the same place. Mhm. That's right. You must have quite a lot of memories. Yeah well. A lot has happened. Has Er in the years I can assure you. Right so at the point we broke off, you were saying about things that things have changed quite a lot. What was it like I mean you know you er when you first moved here that was it nineteen twenty six? Er yeah. As a child? I was a child. At school? Yes. So that was obviously that was well well before the flats were built So what was it actually like? What kind of housing was it across where the flats are now? I believe they're coming down very shortly. Er Yeah they were semis. All semi That's right, semis. Two houses, an entry. Mhm. That's right. All the way up Road right to Street. And er they were good houses. Er definitely good houses. So what actually happened that were they were brought down? Well this is the powers that be isn't it? Er I suppose really the fact that all the streets down Road were er very narrow. And er I think some people might have called it a slum, I suppose they were in a way. But there were some very good people lived down those streets. And they cleared the entire area. Mhm. The area that you can see. Yeah. Right to the Boulevard. And erm er built the flats in place. They pulled the houses down, all the shops down. Because there were shops all the way down Boulevard. From here. And er put up the flats. Er it's different. It definitely is different to what it Mhm. used to be. Was it I mean when the actual decision was made to ge to get rid of that property that was there prior to the flats, was that a controversial decision or was it welcomed by local people who ? Er be difficult to say because er looking at it purely from the mercenary side of the business, Yeah. If memory serves me correct, there were about say four hundred dwellings. Yeah. And they put up the flats, and I think I'm right there, is about seven hundred dwellings. That's right. Yeah. So there's more people into the area for the shops. And er looking at it from that light it was er obviously a better proposition. But somehow well I don't know, things didn't seem to work out. Er it was ne it's never been the road that it was prior to that. Mhm. Yeah what was Never. Even even er well with the er extra extra houses that you might say, the flats the extra dwellings. And it's never been the road it was. Up unto er I think the flats came about nineteen sixty seven I think. Something like that nineteen sixty seven or nineteen sixty eight, some where around there. But er it's not the road that that that it used to be. Not not business-wise. Mhm. So w did you used to have quite a lot of customers who came up from th from there little streets you mean? Yes Oh yes. Oh yes. Mhm. Very very many. Mhm. I mean this is personally for our place, and I'm sure all the shops did the same. . They all er traded on the . And er well it was rather good. And what kind of community was it? community. I mean did people tend to know everyone, know each other 's name stay together er families stay together er I thi mind you I think this is pretty general anywhere, but from what I understand, but er when er sons and daughters marry, they invariably got a house just down the street, near to mum. They didn't move out of the area necessarily . Mhm. I won't say none of them did, but the majority stayed together, so you might say this gave this close knit of people all intermingled relative-wise. Which as I say, er it was alright. It maybe not the modern way but it was . Mhm. Er certainly the area is better from the point of these little streets going. It's just a bit unfortunate in my opinion, what they put up in the place. If they put houses up it'd be a different situation. Mhm. But they didn't. They really out. Mhm. What do you think went wrong? Don't know. I wouldn't like to say. Was it I don't really know. Mhm. Was it I mean was there w I mean wit with regard to custom, Did you get much custom Have you had much custom from people in the flats? Oh yes. Oh yes. I mean again you know, this is speaking personally of the trade, Yeah. you see, when this thing first happened, er all those old houses, they all had some sort of garden. It was the order of the day. You didn't build a house without a garden. Even if it was neglected, it was they still got a little bit of land. And er of course people er pursue their own hobbies of pets. Or whatever it may be. And this is er obviously ideal for us. Well when they put the flats up, I mean they couldn't keep pets, and they hadn't got a garden, and there was a period of time when er we were rather concerned. From fr the only from the trade angle, the business angle. But like so many other things er, they say, when one door closes another one opens, so the people in the flats, they hadn't got a garden, then they er went to town on er pot plants, indoor plants. In place of a garden. And to offset the the er not being able to have pets as such, pigeons and aviaries of birds and things like that. Erm they went into fish. They could have as many fish tanks as they wanted, so things came right again. And er er well as I say, they took the place of gardens and er birds really. Mhm. Birds I'm talking now, not the one in the cage, er the aviaries and the pigeons and the chickens and all that sort of thing. Which they used to have down those streets. So really it's not worked out too badly. I mean er now we're in the second flow of them being emptied again, so I don't know what's gonna happen for the future . Mhm. I'll have to wait and see. Mm. Do you welcome the flats that are c the fact the flats are coming down or are you sorry about it do you feel? Well I'm er I'm actually sorry about it in and and that. But I think it will be better, better for the area The flats coming down? If if they put up dwellings. Mhm. Houses as opposed to flats. Er I I personally think that would be better for the area, yes. Mhm. They whether they're going to do that I I I don't really know yet, not really certain. I can't seem to have have yet heard definitely that this is going to be. I hope it is. Mhm. How has the actual erm shopping complex when i th the area in general, how has that changed erm over the erm Over the years? over the years? I mean obviously for thirty Well it was always said that and Street, were the two best shopping Roads in Nottingham. And er I quite believe it. I don't know much about Street, but er I can say this, That on on , if you started at the top, at Road and walked down to er well just past where we are, you could buy anything. And not only just er the cheaper things, quality. You could buy both. It doesn't matter what you wanted, you could buy anything, whether it be as I say, er the cheaper line of goods in whatever category they might fall, or the better class. Mhm. And er well now I think there's a lot of things that you can't purchase on this road. From what i understand you have got to go out of the road to get to get er well this er well whatever it is, this Yeah. type of thing. I know there's an awful lot you can get on the road, but not not like it used to be. Mhm. So to me it is not as good as it was, as a shopping area. Mhm. What about for traders I mean, erm obviously you can't really c er why you can't comment on the fact that er how your father o o can you comment on how your father actually moved here in the first place. I mean, what attracted him to ? Ooh that No I couldn't answer that er only the fact that er he'd been in the pet business, all his life. Mhm. But not in Nottingham, down in London. Mhm. And he moved up here after the war, World War One. and I don't know what he did in between then and er Oh he had a we had a sweet shop on Road. That's right. But he obviously wanted to get in his own trade, and I assume place came up. For for sale I would imagine. Anyway he moved into here, er like I say, nineteen twenty six. And er been here ever since. Mhm. Er Well that's that's really it in that sense Mm. erm I mean my father died eventually, and er the business passed on to meself. And now my son's in it with me so hopefully he will carry it on when the time comes. Mhm. So there's there's the I don't know. this business has been in erm family hands since nineteen twenty six? Yes. That's sixty that's for sixty odd years . That's sixty one years. That's right. Yeah. Yeah.. There must be a lot of pride actually in it then Erm It is rather nice I must admit. Er it is rather nice Mhm. Yes. I must I think it is anyway. But it's now in its you might say third generation mightn't you. Basically. And has it cha you know the actual erm things that you sell, the actual . The trade itself, how's that changed? Oh yes yes it's changed yes. Well I mean you've used the word the pet shop. Yeah. Or the pet trade. Yeah. Er which it is. Mhm. But way back er there wasn't such a thing as a pet shop. Not as you know it. They were corn shops, which is what this was. Er that's like I say, chickens, pigeons, and various other animals, obviously rabbits, and dogs and cats. And it was the corn shop that started selling the dog and cat biscuits. Of which there weren't too many. I think there were sufficient but there weren't too many. Er well through progression, through whatever people giving up chickens and pigeons and all that sort of thing. Oh and in case of this particular area, not being allowed to keep them. So you're not a corn shop any more. But of course, this is where you came into the pet shop. You catered for pets. As opposed to well chickens and pigeons. Er and that's how it is today. Dogs and cats, of course birds, and er since the war, erm second war erm in the fifties, er the aquatic side started to take over and er people kept fish. Cold water fish and then er what are generally known as tropical fish which are basically fresh water tropical fish, and maybe this last fifteen years or so, er a step up from that they've gone onto tropical marine fish. Which is how the business is today. And we also did in those old days, pre-war, a big garden trade. Seeds, which were sold loose, and all the fertilizers and er erm accessories that go with it. Plant pot etcetera etcetera. Well again since the war and er probably since about the sixties, the garden centres have taken over a lot on that. But we still sell the seeds and we still sell the fertilizers, but we don't sell them loose any more, they're in fancy packets. Which people seem to prefer. And er again they're some of the side of the trade that has altered, but the basics are still there. It's still er a a garden shop in that sense. But not s not so No the the stuff is not sold in the same way. We just have packeted seeds like nearly everyone else. And er fertilizers we s tell lo still sell loose and packet them ourselves but it has altered. But the garden side's still there anyway. Mhm. What about erm how was it that you became involved in erm was it Having looked round the shop erm is it you specialize in is erm fish Ah I see what you mean yes . Yes. Ah well that was when my son came in the business . Yes. Because prior to that we hadn't sold fish as such. Goldfish yes, and that s a few cold water fish but nothing much. And it was he that er started the er the aquatic side. And er eventually when we got the ne purchased the next door premises, we decided to turn that entirely into aquatic. Mhm. And er what we term, the front shop, the main shop if you like, that's still the pet shop. And er the next door shop is the aquatic where all the aquatics are. Mhm. But it was he that started the aquatic trade. Er it would be about nineteen seventy perhaps . Mhm. One thing that interests me erm is you know, a lot of the shops haven't survived. You know a lot of the erm shops that have been here for many years Mhm. eventually disappeared from for various reasons. Mm. What do you think it is about that's sort of helped this shop survive for so many years. To keep this one going? Yeah I mean thi is now sixty one years which Well I don't really know. Excepting that er it might be the fact that always have we had what I would term an an outside trade. By that I mean partially out of this area. Mhm. And er I mean that was pre-war I'm talking of even there. We had customers that came or we delivered to, out of the area. And we've still got them. So maybe that's kept us going when the times weren't so good as they might be. When the local populants er declined. As I say which came about when they built the flats and filled those. But we've still got those outside er customers. By outside I'm talking obviously of er ,, Mhm. Places like that. Mhm. And we have got one or two families that still trade with us, their parents traded with us. And their sons or daughters or whatever still trade with us. And that maybe that's the reason. Mhm. Am I right in saying that you've also been very you've also changed with the times as well, and adjusted Well we sort of had to obviously. Yeah. We've had to. Erm we could the the the the needs of the customers are different. Er through through the er local scene I suppose. Mhm. Cos you were saying for example with the fact that the the flats they erm people what they actually wanted to buy from here, erm differed from what Yeah . that fr the people in the houses had? That's right. It was still basically pets, but a different type of pets. mhm. Or a a different type of livestock maybe better word cos i don't know You can't really count chickens and pigeons as in the way of pets. Although they are, they must be to the people concerned but I mean, a pet's usually a dog, cat or bird isn't it? When you say I've got a pet, whatever. Yeah. Mhm. Moving on to look at the fact I mean you had erm and it isn't the fact that you're still working in the shop, you're still helping the shop, you've had forty years in which you actually lived here didn't you? about forty years? Yes yes, forty years. Were they were they happy years? Ooh they were. Yeah. Definitely. Mhm. Oh yes. And did you get to know a lot of people in the obvious well do you still know a lot of people in the area. Yes er the older people er erm and some of their erm children. Which are now sort of grown up but er known them all my life. And the older people er er I've obviously known those mor nearly all my life as well. Oh yes. happy days here. I've no regrets. Mm. I mean we were brought up here. Didn't do me any harm. What kind of community has it been, having lived here having had so many years in which you've actually had I mean ei either lived here for forty years plus erm from many other years you've actually been working here in addi in addition. Yes. Erm what kind of community had there been here I mean, erm is there mu er is there much community spirit in would you say or not? I think there is. Mhm. You're talking of today? Yeah today . Yes. I think there is probab Compared with previously. Yeah probably are. Compared with pre Probably not so much as previously. mhm. But I think there is a community spirit here, yes. Mhm. But I I think No I I I wouldn't have thought that it er was as much as er er as it was previously. Mhm. No. I wouldn't have thought so. Mhm. But certainly there is a there is the s the spirit here. And without a doubt. mhm. But then see people live live different lives today. Er and again I don't know er it's only my thoughts that everybody's in such a hurry today through pressure of this and pressure of that. Perhaps they don't have time to stand and talk like we used to. Erm and that may be the reason. Mhm. That you've got to get on with your thing and get your shopping or whatever it is, done quick to get home to do whatever they do at home. Whereby you know going back a bit it was quite the accepted thing to stand and have a chat for ten, twenty minutes and er life was at a slower pace. Which it is I would assume anywhere. I don't think it's er anything to do with area or a this town, this city, or this Mhm. I mean people move faster now, they don't have time. I don't know why they don't have time, but er they don't. Mhm. the actual flats gonna be coming down. Do you think that they erm were an asset or or or not to the actual community when they ac I mean erm looking at how things were in prior to the flats being built and and Mm. erm the couple of years since, I mean have they What impact have they had on the area in general, if any? The flats? Yeah. Well I don't know er Well you j you're sitting In all In in all fairness they're not in my opinion, not exactly the greatest thing to look at in the country are they? They don't sort of spur you one with, Oh dear look at that, isn't that nice? I mean it's a dwelling I think it's fine they're very nice, so I understand. But looking purely at the outside bit, If they'd have had some whitewash on I think they'd have looked better. Quite honestly. But er I think that has not improved it. I think perhaps, as I say, I'd have had some colour. It might had er i i it could well have er given a different appearance to people coming through. The passers by, not the people that live here. Er but that's just I say, that is my opinion. Mhm. Erm they really do look a little bit drab, a little bit grey. Well they are grey looking cos that's the colour of them. Mhm. But er I would have thought they would have presented themselves better,had they have been er well a little bit more colour about it. Mhm. I mean you get normal houses, I know they're only red bricks, but they've got different coloured doors and different coloured window frames and things like that. Which er well to me it looks nice. But they are all the same. The grey had taken the place of the red bricks and as you can look out now, you can see them. All the windows are the same colour. And assumably all the doors are the same colour. It' er nothing to to show out or stand out or look rather pleasant. Mhm. I mean as I say very very good. Mhm. Have you had much contact with anyone in people in the flats In what way? As a trader a Customers? Yeah. Quite a lot. Mhm. And although it's quite easy to it's quite difficult to Sorry, it's quite difficult to erm to generalize, I mean how have you found the people compared erm people ever discuss the flats or Not really, no. No not really. I mean do you find most people happy contented living there or Yes they seem just ordinary people Mhm. to me. Yeah. mhm. They're quite appear quite Well I don't know whether they're happy living in the flats or not but they seem quite normal people, they talk about the normal thing that people always talked about. Mhm. And er. No they I think they're the same type of people by and large, as as we had here before. Really. Do er they seem just ordinary people. Whereabout I mean certainly in recent years anyway, 's had a lot of erm bad publicity in the press and certainly in the press and Oh yes. T V. I mean how far do you think the publicity that the area's had has been from your considerable experience would be I Yes. I think er it did get a very bad name. But it is I think it is far different now to what it was five five or six, seven years ago. Yeah. That er when you get these these er er reputations or whatever it is, it takes an awful lot of living down. And I think a lot of people outside the area,perhaps do not accept it. You know, it's er it's got the bad publicity that it had and it's still got it, well I don't think it has to be. It's far far different I I I think to what it was as I say, er well five, ten years ago. What are the difference that the last five, ten years? What what kind of difference have round in ten years? Oh I think the people are different, somehow or other. I know they're probably the same people that lived here then but er There's all this talk about problems and troubles er we we've never noticed it. On the other hand, at six o'clock at night I've gone home. Mhm. So I can't speak for that obviously . Mhm. But er they seem quite ordinary people to me. Mhm. people I know and the only ones I really know are those that come in the shop. And they're they're just people. Mhm. And they've got the usual moans and groans like everybody else including myself. I've got my moans and groans, but haven't we all. Mhm. But er you know the ordinary people. Mm. So how are things you know,said that in the last few say, in five years, that things have changed. What k what kind what's changed in the short time are the things Wh when I've been talking to them about the publicity you said that, The last few years there's there has been It's very recent there has been changes. It There there is a difference. Mhm. There is a difference now. And to to the better. So the thing you're saying you're saying that people Ooh yes. Yes to what they were. Mhm. Yes. Mhm. So you've er you're pretty hopeful about the future? I am if they put houses up there yes. Mhm. that's purely a mercenary business thing obviously. What about for the overall area, I mean, do you s do you think that that what kind of future do you think has? Cos I mean Well er I would think erm Both for the I'm talking about both for the from the trader's point of view and also for the also Yes. Er I would think it should have a decent future, myself. If you know providing things keep going along the lines Mm. that er I understand they are going to go along. Mhm. Oh yes I think so. What where are you I've missed that actually the the quite interesting just to briefly ask you about th erm When we s when I saw you last time, you were telling me something about actually erm a bit about yourself how what kind of person actually saying, you know,personality, what kind of things Wh how would you actually describe yourself?say if I said to you, Erm what kind of person are you? Me? What kind of q Yeah what are the kin what are the kind of qualities that have helped you get by over the years? Just an ordinary person. I don't think I've got any special qualities at all. I'm sure I haven't. No er take life as it comes you know. times, we've all had bad times Mhm. and doubtless we'll have some more bad times but er No no. I think that I'm just an ordinary I hope I am anyway. I would like to think I am just an ordinary person. Er I don't really know anything special about me. Had a normal upbringing, normal schooling. Normal early work life. Mhm. I mean What did you do in your . You was that When I first started work ? Yeah. Yeah. Well like any other shop lad, and although worked with me father I was still a shop lad. Er out on the shop bike, and cleaning the windows and all that sort of thing. With everybody else who worked in shops did the same thing. All the juniors. We didn't start at the top in those days. And work your way in. up or down. You started at the bottom. Mhm. I didn't regret it. They were happy days. And wh when you when you look at your actual erm schooldays, etcetera schooldays Oh yes round here. Oh they were good. What school is it you went to? I went to . Which is not called that now, I went to Road. And then after that I went to a public school but er to those years er I just followed the pattern. After , that was that, and then on to Road. Er that was just normal schooldays schooldays. Mhm. I don't regret them. Not one little bit. is this erm looking at the a Moving on to look at the erm this area for actual for traders and so on, is it as attractive erm for traders to actually move into the area, as it was previously or or not? Erm Well That's a bit difficult er I would probably think not. Yeah. I would probably think not. Er quite so today as it used to be. Er I'm only basing on that there are one or two empty shops Mhm. around. Fortunately not too many on this little patch we're on. I understand further up the road there are. Mhm. Well that must mean something. Must do. Mhm. Well do you think actually so to make it more What could be done to actually make it more attractive to traders? To traders? Yeah. Cos obviously Ah. you can cos you can contrast it with when it was a very successful area. Mm. Well. You could get virtually anything at one stage. You could. So what what could you do to kind of Er I don't really know. It would be asking too much to bring all the shops back on Yeah. patch, obviously . Mhm. And make it one long road of shops. That may have been the reason. That may have been the decline that they chopped all these shops out, and so er well as far as this side of the road,right hand side coming from the city end. Er all of sudden you get the Boulevard and the shops stop. Whether that is it, I don't know but it could well be. You stop there. You don't go any further. And I know I don't really know. Not to be able to answer that one. To make it more attractive. Perhaps if we get dwellings as I say, up here. Mhm. These small small houses again, yes that could that could have er an impact I think. Mhm. It could well do. It might bring more people into the area. Mhm. other Who do the shopping like. Mhm. So actually quite a few factors, what actually goes there the flats could be quite an important factor for the area. I think so. I really do. Yes. Mhm. I I really do think that. Mhm. Is th another area that I didn't cover actually when when we were looking at the flats was erm, some people have s have around said that erm flats when they were first up in the first few years, erm were a contrast with the later years, in that erm they didn't have many of the problems, Many of the problems associated with the flats now,didn we were not in existence in the early days of the flats. Do you would you say No I don't think they were. If they were they didn't manifest theirself. Mhm. So I would think er very little er problems er if that's the word. Er as you say,about the first eight years. Mhm. Er it's something like that. Ten years perhaps. No there were just erm a load of flats across there instead of houses. No. Mhm. So is it have you idea what's actually changed why Why? things were okay early on and I don't know. Was it a fairly sudden thing or A rapid change ? It probably Was it sudden or fairly slow change ? manifested itself perhaps, over a period of three, four years. Mhm. Or five five, six years perhaps. Something like that. Mhm. The reasons why are I I d I don't know. Mhm. as I say, the majority of the people whom I come in contact with, they're just people. Just ordinary people. Mhm. So so you felt that the could be anywhere. Mhm. So am I right in saying, you find the people in the flats fine. Yeah. No problem at all. The people I've come in contact with, definitely. No trouble at all. straight into finish now most of the areas. Erm that started and let's look at the actual future. Erm Mm. So looki looking ahead, erm how do you see the future for this business. Do you I mean do you think you can Oh dear. Yeah. Well I mean you start started going sixty one years. Erm so I er What about it's chances to of of century Going the next Of ge of getting to a hundred years old? I would think that's rather unlikely. Er You think that's rather unlikely? Well I do because er As I say, my son more or less runs it now. And he hasn't any children. So there you go from there. And er Yeah. It'd be nice er but I shouldn't think he will be having a family now. So after he, there isn't anyone Mhm. to carry it on. Mhm. I'm right in saying that, he's he you know he's had er many He's got h he he's likely to have many years yet isn't he,working for Oh he's got er yeah he's got quite a few. Er he could well I'll be eighty six. Oh he could take us into the two thousand. Yes. That'd be quite an achievement really. And you could take into account the fact that That's right. you started in the year of the general strike in nineteen twenty six. Now that's a thought yeah. No I've not looked at it that way . Mm. You mean you've never thought. Yes. occurred to me that. Yes we did didn't we? Yes. I mean Aye. Do you do you think erm your father when he started the shop in twenty six, would ever imagined that it could possibly go on to the the end of the century? Ah well I don't know. He might he probably had his thoughts. Can't remember him ever talking to me about this. But he probably did have his thoughts. Bearing in mind that although not here as I said, but he he he worked for his father. And his father worked for his father. So the the Yes it's been going back a the the name, the firm in that sense I think goes back a lot of years. But I say, as far as Nottingham's concerned, er er only since er like I say nineteen twenty six. But er yes he probably did have thoughts on that. I think we'll end on that one. Thank you thanks very much for your help. That's quite alright . Thank you. You're welcome. And two, Healthmaster is designed to meet client needs in the following areas. A, protection of income in the event of being unable to work through sickness. How do we feel about that? Yes, fairly positive on that one? Yes it certainly was A, erm, anybody have anything different to that? Anybody got any queries on that? No, move on then, number three, in what circumstances should you recommend a deferred period of thirteen weeks instead of twenty six weeks? When the client's employers stop paying salary after thirteen weeks' absence through ill-health. That's D, and that is the right answer. Anybody got anything they want to talk about on that? No All fairly happy with that, yes? Good. Ah, number four,interesting one this, actually we did have a few er, mishaps on number four , employed client twenty four thousand, I'll just do this one on the board, I think it might be an idea. move it along. The employed client at twenty four thousand pounds a year income, other P H I cover of eight thousand a year so assuming the state person's ability benefit is two, nine, one, seven, what's the maximum Healthmaster benefit allowed? Okay, do you want to start talking me through this? What are we going to do with this one first of all? Take seventy five per cent away. Right so we go like that, yes, times point seven five, I think that comes to erm, oh eighteen thousand? Yes not by my maths it doesn't Sorry? Not by your maths it isn't Bob, ah, right, yes, well, little clue there in future for you. Twenty four thousand, at seventy five percent will give you eighteen K. What I am going to do now? Take away eight thousand. Take away the eight thousand existing P H I cover, absolutely crackamondo, leaves us with the nice round sum of ten thousand pounds, and what I am going to do now then folks? Two one two off. I'm going to take off the two nine one seven, aren't I? Yes, take off the two, nine, one, seven, well. Do a quick bit of maths here, so seven from ten is three, two from ten is eight, ten from ten is nothing, three from that is seven, seven, oh, eight, three which surprisingly enough was answer B. Alright, Okay all fairly happy with that calculation? Yes It wasn't a difficult one really was it? No Just enough to make sure Okay, maybe not a difficult as that one was, just enough really to make sure that you knew how to do the calculations. Alright, number five then, Healthmaster is not available to, and this caused a few upsets as well, erm, A employed persons, well quite obviously it's available to them. B, retired persons that was the right answer, right, B, retired persons was the right answer, now some of you put D,anyone not gainfully employed and I did think I'd explained it clearly My daughter's doing a media degree actually, and she just brought er, one of those things home with her period is one of her fieldwork, as part of her fieldwork is to interview people , is that what your background is? Not really no, I mean, erm, I did a three year national diploma in music, music recording Ah, right and then through a friend who was working at , got a job; most of my work actually involves working with computers, it's only now and again I actually get to go away and actually do some recording, which I That's not going to work with , five thousand six hundred, so that's where some people got the figure worked out, actually looking at the term as a parrot strings the term in some of these places, Okay number six, Healthmaster provides long-term benefits for individuals unable to return to work because of illness or injury. This type of plan is know as I think B is the answer, you know, of anybody got that wrong I think a severe smacking on the head is probably due. Number seven, the element of risk on a Healthmaster plan, D increases as the occupation class increases, i e, number one is low, number four is high. Yes, all comfortable with that, no problems with that? Okay. Number eight, which of the following affect premiums? On all of them? B, smoking status, alright, now this caused a little bit of upset, and I think we just like to clarify that. You've noticed that Healthmaster does not have erm, just smoker, non-smoker rates, because if we actually just simply mention dwelled on that perhaps we should've little bit longer. Why, why is that? All the other life assurance. They're life assurance aren't they? Yes. This is a training session for , life assurance, well it's to pro , it's to provide permanent health insurance benefits, and whilst I think there's evidence at the moment to suggest that obviously your health is in by smoking, erm, insurance companies haven't got round yet to saying it's enough of a risk that it will keep you off work, although quite clearly I think it will. Erm, so that's why I put down six, so, you could also put, you know, if you want to, it all down to the matter of doing the same job, But that's all really reflected in the rate isn't it? yes, yes. And whether it's male or female, so, number eight, and in fact, number nine as well, because number nine was that couple of questions I said look don't get confused, they are actually that's bad news yes, that was in fact the bad news, yes, and that's what I think what did a couple of them Yes, I think that's probably what your, your problem was there John, so we're all clear about that then? Smoking status is not an issue with Healthmaster, and most of you , in fact I recorded all that And most of you caught on to that, number ten, policy reviews are a check to see if D, current benefits can be sustained. If I come back and say It's as simple as that, anybody have a problem with ten? yes Oh, great, so I put the level of benefit does not exclude the client's salary, because that was the Thanks a lot That was the one thing you warned us to be careful on, so that the benefit I certainly did , yes, I certainly made a point that you must be careful that, erm, particularly the self-employed, that you don't exceed the maximum allowable. However, we also went on further down the road, I think you're just getting a little confused here, which on, by Thursday, is not surprising. Erm, you went down the road, you remember we showed the slide that said policy reviews? Mm And we just went through them, the same procedure as it is for all our policies, which is eight point two, five, growth percent. Yes?, and that's what it's getting at, Karen. Not difficult to get confused, I mean, I still think your heart's in Emmerland, Emmerdale, Emmerdale Farm land. Okay, number eleven, policy reviews are a check to see if, D, the fund can support future charges. Which is just another way of saying health cover benefits can be sustained, in fact, doesn't it? Okay. Number twelve. Twelve, what is the company's standard definition of disability. C was the answer. Unable to perform any part of his normal occupation, and is not following any other gainful occupation D. Sorry, I'll try that again, number thirteen I meant. Erm, under the inflation-proof plans, erm, just go for a straight A, B, C, D here folks. A, premiums increase on each policy anniversary, B, cover escalates on each policy anniversary, C, benefit in payment increases annually in line with R P I, yes, all true so far? yes D, normally increases do not require health evidence, yes? Yes Remember we said about, that only applies if you miss two consecutive erm, years' rise in the R P I, then we'll say right, if you want to take up any more, than we'll need a medical. So it's A, B, C, D. F, why did put F oh you asked me about F didn't you? what did you put, did you put F in the end? No No you didn't good. Fourteen, A, a choice of investment plans, is that a benefit on Healthmaster? I think I'd have to actually, should have perhaps warned you about this, but er, er, in point of fact, not too many people got this, I think there was one of two that got this wrong. Erm, you do have choice of funds, but remember I said, however in practice, you really should only choose the managed. Yes? Mm That may have, I suppose, erm, sort of led some people to believe that we don't have a choice, but technically we do. But in practice, hey, be careful, you know, you could be letting yourself in for a bit of trouble, if you start recommending the equity fund for Healthmaster or something. Okay, B differential smoker, non-smoker rates, well we know you don't have that, don't we? C, waiver of premium benefit, we do have that, D, options for cover to increase in line with inflation, we certainly have that, E, do we have min, max, and standard levels of cover? No we don't, that's a reference to the old style er, Covermaster, by the way actually. F, options for benefits in payment to increase in line with inflation, do we have that? We certainly do, so A, C, D, and F, were your options on question fourteen. And to round all off, number fifteen. Premiums under Healthmaster may be, A, increased as the benefits increase with R P I, can they? I think so, Yes Good, paid monthly? yes C, escalated at ten percent for seven simple for five years? No Correct, D, level? Yes E, paid annually? Yes F, escalates over twenty percent over five years? No No, quite clearly not , so A, B, D, E,all quite happy now where we went wrong and tripped up? yes Well I say happy, that's a term of course I use loosely in that context. Okay let's move on then folks to knowledge. Just had a very interested chat with Chris last night, I suppose you want an up do date, I want to know what you use that for? We started talking and it's all figures flying , and if fact it's that Casio three, eight, seven. Does he want it? Sorry, Does he want it? Of course he wants it. Does he want it, is the earth round? Is the Pope Catholic?, does Judith Chalmers have a passport? A false one perhaps? Yes, does Rose Kennedy wear a black dress? Sorry could I just have erm, hand the sheet out on that . Obviously, where I actually went wrong on the Erm, no, not at, at this moment, but catch me at the break, and certainly you can. We'll talk about your football I suspect. Yes, interesting, I'm going to tell him now, and that three sets,obviously you know, you can work that out in seconds flat, it will be bound to be how most people do this sort of thing, and when it's their full-time job,Oh, right, just come out of there. It's the same, when he, Chris always doing it in two seconds flat, he went like that, you're going right,. Different, different planets? It was yes, indeed. No, no change there for me, then some might argue, it's er. Okay, moving on then Healthmaster knowledge. Number One Healthmaster's only currently in following areas, quite clearly it was C, protection of income in the event of being unable to work through sickness. Anybody got a problem with that one? No, moving on then number two, Healthmaster is B, a non-qualifying unit income plan that provides P H I benefits, much the same as er, your first paper. Remember we said the other week there would be some questions that will be shared between the papers because they're mandatory, and therefore pertains to talk about that particular product. Number three, what are the current premiums for a new Healthmaster policy? I must remember to get some oil for you Peter? Er, number three, B was the answer, twelve pounds per month and a hundred and twenty sovs. per annum. Sovs. being the technical term there for pounds. That's right. Number four, what is the minimum age at entry for new policies? And those of you who recalled rightly, that seventeen next birthday was the answer, put down C, as the correct answer. And indeed that was correct. Number five, if the clients wish to switch testing units in any fund into units of any other fund, it's a well written question isn't it? the switch will be made from A, was what we were looking for, bid to bid in both funds, bid to bid, and that generally applies on all our stuff, so it's quite worthwhile knowing. Okay, number six, what is a recurring disability claim? Well, where disability commences within six months of returning to work after a previous claim due to the same or related causes in which case no deferred period will apply, and so therefore your right answer is B folks. Anybody have a problem with that? All quite happy? Okay, number seven then, waiver of premium benefit under Healthmaster, B, will commence once income benefits are payable. Right, it wasn't C, I don't think anybody got that wrong actually, erm, just occasionally you normally get at least one or two people want to put C, because they know that waiver of premiums is twenty six weeks on every other plan. But er, I think all of you got through that one, so B was your right answer there. Number eight, when an increasing benefit or an inflation-proof plan is in payment, the payments will escalate by, C, the increase in Retail Price Index at the policy anniversary, subject to a maximum increase of ten percent per annum. All quite happy about that one? Splendid. Rapidly moving on then to number nine, when can crisis cover be added? B, only when a deferred period of four weeks is chosen. All quite happy about that, yes, I don't think anybody got that one wrong. Number ten, how long does an individual policy holder benefit from the tax holiday? A, was the correct answer, until benefits have been payable for one full tax year. All quite happy with that one? Yes Splendid, number eleven. Which occupation classes can have a deferred period of four weeks? And this in fact oddly enough, did cause a few upsets. Which occupation classes can have a deferred period of four weeks. I think five of you put B, which was the right answer, one, two and three only, and the rest of you put A, which is the wrong answer, all of them. If you recall yesterday, I think yes, the term sick as a parrot is becoming quite a, er, apparent to me in here again, that's again looking at your faces, some of you, so you're all quite happy about that one, you knew where you went wrong there. It was one, two and three only. Number twelve, under Healthmaster, the income will be paid if the illness or accident prevents the insured from following B, any part of his normal occupation and he is not undertaking any other paid employment. The same sort of question there, no problems with that. Number thirteen, what is the proportion of benefit C was your right answer, a reduced benefit, payable throughout the working life, if the life assured is unable to follow their normal occupation and engages in a different occupation at a lower income. Should that read not more properly have read may be payable? Erm, I wouldn't disagree with that Giles actually, I wouldn't disagree, Because it is Ab , Abbey Life's, at Abbey Life's discretion, we do in fact say that on our last line don't we? Yes, well indeed. Well, I think again we can just erm,er, again if we just think about the fact that we didn't write the questions No it's just It's a sore subject with trainers, I can assure you, Giles, it really is. Yes, I agree with you, perhaps that would be a better way of doing things however, most of you got that right, I think, if not all, so. Number fourteen, which version of Healthmaster is not available, obviously a trick question this one, A, a low-start plan is not available. Fifteen, which one of the following does not affect the premium rate. Well I think we've had this one before, John, haven't we? would you care to just enlighten me on this one? Well this is the smoking status. Absolutely right, sir, yes, and that one's on the board isn't it, so B was your er, right answer there. That includes this rather wonderful epic version of Healthmaster examination questions, and ladies and gentlemen without any further ado may have a big hand for that wonderful trainer, Mr. Peter yes. Peter . Oh, yes. Yes, oh right, bugger off now, Right I will, Do you want these back Alan? Erm, not really, but I'll take them back actually yes. I promised you an executive briefcase didn't I? oh, oh dear, oh no High quality recycled plastic. But the important thing is that it's recycled. Cheap advertising, which means the next time you come back to the Centre, will you bring it back? I'll be suspected, I'll be arrested. What are all these questions about? Why would that be, why would you be arrested for walking around with this? People might rush up and say do you do pensions? And you could say,. Three hundred pounds if they say that. I think she's designing carrier bags for a living. Ah, you know, everywhere, It should be, that's a quite a soothing thing isn't it? you know yes? If not, jot it down, oh, my God, hang on, I'll want to stay at Because that'll be for Yes, yes, I must remind you to do that, Karen. Okay They don't believe in that anymore do they? Er, those who erm, those who didn't get through by the way, obviously er, er, a quick jot at lunch time before you troll down the road. Probably won't get a lot from them. Can you not do it the coffee break? Well, er, what do you suppose, I think we're probably try and so that's possible, I mean It's only that I'm sharing text books with the others Oh right. Okay In stations, yes. smoking one night I want to catch the same train out you see yes, Okay, yes, I'll see if we can have a long er coffee break, Peter! yes Right, bearing in mind coffee breaks erm, lunchtimes today's, obviously when we want to get them away, if we can, When's the resits? How many resits have we got? We've got erm, four people doing resits, I think, haven't we? Stuart we've got one, When I, when I come to practice management then, when I've given the books out, I'll probably them out to do the exam. Right, Have you got the two forgotten No would you do that for me? I'll certainly do that. The oth , the other thing is actually, Alun, Chris out there has asked you, this form here, at the coffee break, just leave it so you can leave it outside, would you just put your Christian name on this form. He doesn't want to know anything about you, and what he's, and it's got age, sex, erm, it's acc, A C C, he's after your accent, could you just put the county that you, you were from please, in that column for him. So he's, he knows what cross-section of people we've got as standard. What just London Erm Well that bit if you like, but, if you like, your accent he's after, so if you feel that you've got a way of describing your accent, then put it down there. Punjabi, or whatever. So just put your Christian names, please, and under acc. or A C C just put your accent, your, your birthright if you like. Or Lancashire. I'll put Lancashire, but I'm not. We're talking about Alistair, What Pardon Okay, what we're going to do now is finish off if you like, the week talking about planning. Which in, when I get hold of that,the way we're going to do it,it's in stages th , this is the bit where we said we get paid two hundred and eighty pound didn't we, for marketing, prospecting, approaching and finally planning. These are the keys that set up to success, so, these are the bits that earn you money. You might not realise that but your got to actually believe what we tell you. Now most of you in the room have come from a P A Y E background, haven't you? So in fact, you're daily planning has been done for you by somebody else. Has it? Yes, with certain exemptions? Because well, into that everybody has a plan. We all work to a plan. Who's actually naturally good at planning in this room? You're good at it? Yes My wife is. Brilliant. Absolutely brilliant Some people really are aren't they? Everything's organised and planned well, they research journeys very well, and I mean, off you go to France and they know everywhere you're going to travel to, how many gallons you're going to use, and all the rest of it. So most people though, are like me. Just jump in the car, forget to fill up with petrol and let's go to France, erm. Oh, this is Denmark isn't it, it's not too far out And off we go, right. And then, then we go on these expensive courses for time management, don't we. We buy a nice little time manager thing, with little pink elephants in it, and goodness knows what, and we spend eight hundred pounds to get something to tell us how to time manage, and you really get enthusiastic about this for three months, and then you put it in the drawer and go back to your diary. Then you forget to open your diary, and get, and go right back to having yellow stickers again. And stick them everywhere. Right. You cannot afford to do that any more. Right. So what we're gonna actually have a look at in this session, is with three different ways really. We're going to have a look at the, the benefits and the, the objectives of planning, and what you should be considering and talking about with peo , with other people you share your life with, your partners and things, and then we'll look at the id , the ingredients of a plan, then we'll look at what the company's going to provide for you, to help you plan. That's quite exciting. And then finally, we'll talk about activity and we'll be looking at what your diary should look like as a sales associate. I will actually fill the board with what are, what a week at a glance in a diary should look like. And I'll give you the ingredients for a week of activity. Now I promise you if you do as we tell you and your diary looks like, my white board if you like, every week for the next sort of twenty eight days, you will be successful, because if you do something consistently for twenty eight days, apparently it becomes a habit. Okay, again, so if you see me doing a branch visit, and I see you're, you shutting your diary, I'll know . I see that's a big giveaway isn't it? I don't know, I walk into the branch, and people see me and go so what do I do? Peek Have a little go, hello there Steve, how are you doing? Just have a look at your diary, shall we, Okay? So what you should have is a full diary, not full of appointments, full of activity. Because activity breeds success. Yes, it's marketing, prospecting, approaching and planning that you earn two hundred and eighty pounds a sale for. Not just sales, so it shouldn't just be the appointments in your diary, and a lot of you will not used to be keeping a diary as well. So again it's a new discipline that you've got to learn. But as I said, you've probably come from the P A Y E back , background where people have made the decisions for you. In fact let's say you hired a small engineering company, and I manufactured widgets, and I needed to manufacture one thousand widgets a week by four o'clock on Friday. I probably would have worked out well, I'll be the spare man, I'll need four men working on five lathes, because I'll need a spare lathe in case one falls over, so I can keep four running, I'll need four men in case one of them's sick or one, when they go on holidays I can fill in, so we can always get four lathes working. I perhaps have worked out, I need a clerical assistant and so forth, I might need a small van to actually take my widget on a Friday, to Widget, or Big Widget factory, or whatever it is I do with these widgets. And then, all I've done is worked out some time management and say well if these guys turn up at half past eight every morning and I give them a break at ten o'clock, and they get a lunch break and then in afternoon, another break, and they finish at half past four, if everything goes to plan, by four o'clock Friday, my van should be backing up at the end of the production line to load itself up with a thousand widgets. And a thousand widgets will generate enough profits so I can pay my workforce, and some profit for myself. Yes. Very basic,c ,c ,How to run a business. All you had to do as an employee in all honesty, was get up in the morning, and you had, the decision you had to make is, how do I get to work for half past eight? So after a while you either caught the bus, the train, the car, or what , or walked it, got on your bike, whatever it was. You built a little plan, that if I leave at ten past eight, I miss that traffic, or I, whatever it is that you don't often plan till the holidays, but after a while it stopped being a decision making process. You just automatically got up in the morning, jumped in your car, went to work, you were there for half six, sun shone, cup of tea, read the Sun, sit down, get on your lathe, have your break at ten o'clock, lunch time, have your meal and then you have a game of football outside in the car park or whatever, and you had a daily little routine. Half past four you went home, you were five, six, six o'clock news, you liked to watch the six o'clock news so you sat down, had a bit of light tea, watched the six o'clock news, read the paper, the next big decision you made was whether to watch Coronation Street or not. Because actually this is why we're breeding a race of non-decision makers. Because your decisions have been made by somebody else. And we are a nation of non-decision makers. People that make decisions, they're normally successful. The decision makers we're screaming out for. It's funny isn't it, we form queues. Why? As a nation, why do we form queues? Because we're orderly, and we're polite, that's the nice side, but we don't think, we don't make decisions about the queue. I'll give you an example, I went to G-Mex to watch an exhibition, and we had some complimentary tickets to go, which means you've got a special entrance for complimentary tickets holders. Yes? You don't have to queue up and buy tickets at the, the little box thing. As I'm passing this great big q , queue it always give you a sense of well-being doesn't it, when you can walk by to the front sort of thing, not to the front of the queue, you can just walk in. Right, as I'm walking past this great big long queue which was outside the G-Mex Centre, I see a chum of mine, and I say, hello Bill, what are you doing here? He said, oh, I'm going to see the exhibition. Oh, that's great I said, I've got complimentary tickets and everything, he said, so have I. So I said, what are you doing here? He said, well I saw the queue, and I joined it Do you see what I mean? We are like that aren't we? Oh there's a queue, let's go and join it. We didn't make the decision to find out, look I've got a complimentary ticket, and perhaps I don't have to queue here, perhaps I might have to, but I'll go and find out. I've made a decision to go and say, hey, this might be worth having. So what we've got to do is realise that very, very quickly as well, that we're in control of our own time. Nobody's going to tell us that we've got to be at work by f , half past eight. Yes? Now you're going to be self-employed. For those of you who think self-employed actually means well I can crawl out of bed at elevenish, work till fourish, that's three days a week because the other two days I can have a couple of rounds of golf, Thursday and Friday, those of you who think that's what self-employed means, are gonna fail. You have to earn the right from now on to have holidays, because when you're on holiday, nobody's going to be paying you. When you have a day off, nobody's going to be paying you. So you have to earn the right from now on, to have time off. All self-employed means is that if you want to you can get up at seven o'clock in the morning and start work at half past seven, and work right through till eleven o'clock at night. If you want to because nobody's going to stop you. That's what self-employed means. You can actually go and work for a living. But the rewards will be in direct proportion to the activity and efforts and work you put in. Well I think that's quite attractive. Yes? Now most of you said you're not good at planning. You are. It's all built into us. Naturally, reasonably good planning, it's just that you ha , you don't realise it. What we're going to do is have a look at the ingredients of a plan. Because everybody must have a plan. Do you think Alan the Managing Director's got a plan? yes Peter the Sales Director? Yes Hope so Your Area Managers, your Regional Directors, all got plans? or do you think those people that are running the company just get up on a Monday, oh, let's see what we can do this week. Start the year, oh, yes, well where will this go? We'll just get up and see what happens shall we? Will the shareholders be pleased at the end of the year? What do they do at the shareholders meeting? This is what we're going to do, other shareholders say. Right, we're going to hold you to this. Yes? So let's think about a plan. Every plan must have a starting point, it must have an objective. A root, and you must be able to monitor that root. That's the basis of any plan. Alan works his plans out,, like that, to run the company. Yes? Now I said you were naturally good at it, why? Let's cast our minds back to last weekend. And you had a nice weekend, and some of you travelled on the Sunday, I know. Now let's all cast our minds back to where we were Monday morning. Now I don't know where you were Sunday night, so I don't know where you were Monday morning, it's personal to you, where you woke up on Monday morning. Okay, but you woke up, right, that was your starting point, wherever you woke up. Your objective was to arrive here on Salford Keys by Nine thirty Nine thirty Okay, to start an induction course with Abbey Life. How many people even on the Sunday, or, or last week, on Monday morning did you just get out of bed? Stick yourself in the general direction of Manchester, and hope for the best? No, last week you probably would have got the little joining letter with map, but you probably talked to people in the branch who may have been there, or you talked to your manager, or you picked up the phone and said, how do I get here, you may have even got the map out if you were driving, to actually see what junction you came off the motorways and things like that. Just to check the journey, if you've checked the train times, you may have even give th , what were you doing? You were planning the route. Some people that are local may have even driven here on the Sunday, just to see how to get here, so that on the Monday morning when it's the rush hour, they knew generally where they were going to go. I've heard, the people that are local, just have a run out on a Sunday afternoon to find out where it is. They're really good planners aren't they? How many times on Monday morning did you go like that? Look up at the car clock, or whatever? What were you doing? You were monitoring the progress of your journey. You may have been sat in the Wendover if you've come on the Sunday, but even having breakfast I bet you were going, what time do you think we ought to leave. Well we'll add plenty of time just in case, we've never been there before. You're actually making all these little decisions instantly. Yes? Now, for those of you on Monday morning, who was late on Monday morning. I was sort of iffyish. Iffyish,comes from Manchester Right, what was it like for you on Monday morning? Well I was panicking about twenty five past. You were panicking? yes Yes, now, there's another word that's better than panicking. It started getting a little bit stressful in fact, yes? Well, stress kills people. It's a big killer. Stress kills. So let's talk about this stress. If we're going on a journey, and we plan where we're going to go from, I want to get to Birmingham or wherever it is. I've planned me route, I'm going down the M six, I need to come off at the spaghetti junction whatever it is, and I'm going to check me clock and I'm going allow plenty of time to get there. Because bear in mind Thelwall Viaduct, I hear it on the radio every morning, there's roadworks. And I believe there's some roadworks at Stafford, I might even get on my teletext and look and see what roadworks are on the M six, I may even give the A A a ring, to say, but it's all on teletext and this sort of thing. Some people plan it so that when they go along, along the motorway, they hit roadworks, blinking heck, but they're aware that they're there. So they just sit in the inside lane don't they, turn up the radio, or put a cassette in, or maybe even get their papers on their lap and,thing, yes, but then the ones that didn't do this planning are the ones that you see going see them, probably you. Yes? And then what really bugs those people is seeing me keep catching up with them. Alright, and they go, erm,alright, alright. And then we get to the roadworks, and probably he's either in front of me or behind me, and he's going and then he gets through the roadworks, and it's, away, whoa, woof, and they're up behind you aren't they. Right tailgating, saying come on you old bastard get out the way, you're only doing a hundred and ten, what's the matter with you. And as he's going like that, the lorry in front's stopped, smack, hits it, dies, or if he's, turns round, and goes My God, misses it, unfortunately hits me, I hit somebody else, and he carries on going, and leaves carnage behind him. Stress kills. Those people are bad planners, Okay. It's not how fast you can drive, it's how fast you can stop that matters. So you plan for these things. Yes? Now it's the same thing. If you don't plan, you'll get stressed out, you won't be running your business properly, it causes stress, it'll kill you it may not physically kill you, but it'll kill you in this business. You won't be in the business. So let's have a look at an idea of what we should be looking at, should we. In our plans for the life assurance industry if you like. Well to do that, erm, what we need to say really is our starting point is actually now, because this is the first day of the rest of your ca , career with Abbey Life isn't it? If we get appointed. Yes, that's a point in your case Giles, yes. It's a damn good point actually. Okay now, your starting point is now, and this is it, in fact, this is the first day of the rest of your life. If you want to think about it a little bit deeper, it's the first day of the rest of your life. Now what we've got to look at is why I've come to Abbey Life. I don't know why you've come to Abbey Life. So that's a good point, why've you come to Abbey Life. To make money. To make money, yes, you've got objectives. But you've all got your reasons to come to Abbey Life, and you've all objectives, but objectives are personal, and should be personal. Everybody in this room is an individual, right. You're all individuals. I'm not, It's an in-joke, Okay. So, let's think about our objectives, first of all an objective, I might have come to Abbey Life to make money, last year, I might have been working in a factory, earning fifteen, twelve, fifteen thousand a year, and I might make my objective in my first year with Abbey Life to earn sixty thousand pounds. Is that a sensible objective? No I mean it's possible, but by. You think it should be a hundred grand? Yes, I like that. So what I'm actually saying is that I'm making my objective an elephant, it's too large i e if I wanted to eat an elephant, it's too large an objective, but I could achieve it by what? Eating it in bits. Yes, so I could what, slaughter it? Chop it up into elephant steaks, bung it into the deep freeze, and over a period of say two, three years, every Friday night have an elephant steak, but in three years' time, I will have actually achieved my objective. Shame for the elephant. Shame for the elephant. So, first of all when we're thinking about our objectives, we've actually got to think of it in being achievable. And if it's not achievable now, when will it be achievable. This is why they ask you things like, on interviews, and they ask you, where do you see yourself in five years' time, and I used to say, I don't even see meself where I'm going to be in five days' time, never mind five, just give us the bloody job. Right, but what you've got the opportunity of doing now during being a life assurance sales person, with self-employed status if you like, with the benefits of being in a company like ours, is really thinking where do I want to be in five years' time. And this is why I say it's personal and you need to be discussing this with the people you share your lives with, you really do, because it's important. So we need to be looking forward, but we ought to be looking short-term, so the best way to look at objectives, is to look it in the short-term, which is in fact, year one if you like, medium term, years two and three, and long-term, years four and five. Where do I want to be? Now the important thing is, it's got to be meaningful. It's got to be meaningful to you as an individual, otherwise it won't work. It's no use running with the herd. Oh, everybody wants a Porsche, so I'm going to have a Porsche. I think, was it Colin I was talk , we were looking at a Porsche the other day, and he was drooling over this Porsche, and yet it doesn't do anything for me. Are you with me? The car's just a practical thing to me, I mean I like to drive around in comfort, everybody likes a nice car, I'm not saying that, but to go to the extreme of spending what would say, seventy or eighty thousand pounds on a Porsche, I'd have to be really, really rich before I would consider the luxury of having a Porsche. That, it wouldn't be on my list of priorities, but for Colin, woof, he was drooling over it, orgasmic, I think he said, or whatever it was, it wouldn't be what you said, alright to drive it. So different people want different things and get turned on by different things. Now let's suggest what might be in here, just to get you, your mind thinking. Could be that let's have a look at the first year, the first year, I just want to survive. I might have earned twelve thousand pounds last year, I'd like to earn fourteen, say fifteen thousand in my first year with Abbey Life. Because effectively when was the last time you had a two thousand pound pay rise? Or a three thousand pound pay rise? You're actually giving yourself and planning for a two thousand pound pay rise. And believe me it's within your control whether you get it or not. That's a new thing isn't it. You've always been dependent on other people, being impressed with what you've done, or the, before you've got any pay rises. From now on you determine your own pay rises. But to go two thousand up I would say would be realistic, and achievable. Going to fifty thousand more, maybe not. So the first year might be I wanna survive. I wanna get out there, and I might even make some sacrifices. I want to learn the business. I want to learn the trade. I want to learn the trade not the tricks of the trade. I want to know what I'm talking about. I want to get at my product knowledge up to scratch, I'm going to get my sales skills up to scratch. I'm really going to throw everything into this. I'm going to accept the nose. I'm going to sacrifice maybe holidays this year, and maybe have a couple of long weekend breaks, as long as I earn enough to keep my head above water and to pay my way in life for the next twelve months, keep my family fed and watered I'm Okay, then I'm going to take stock in twelve months' time. And I think that could be a reasonable way to get yourself going in the business. Yes, learn the trade. Survive. It might be different for you. If you've got something different, please, the important thing is to write it down, think about it, write it down, get a photograph of it. Colin, get that photograph of that Porsche, blow it up and stick it at your work-station in your branch. Funny you should say that. That's what he's done is it? No, but it You've got it have you? No I had a Group Manager who actually introduced me to this, I erm, I work out with him, but, he brought a, actually what turned me on to this was the fact that erm, where he is, he's thirty six now, and erm, he's got no mortgages, he's got a, he paid eleven thousand pounds for a, a Kawasaki Z Z eleven hundred R super bike, worth that is Motorbike And he's, he took a photo Motorbike yes, he's took a photo of him sitting on the bike so you then he just had to pin it up on, on my thingy, and it'd say, you know, you'll never have this, it'll give you something to, to go for. Yes, yes, and the same yes? So that's good. So write it down, get a picture of it, it's like a car salesman, what does he do when you go into a car showroom? He sits you in it, would you like to sit inside? Because once you sit inside, you're quite right, you're driving it aren't you. Live the dream. Where do you want to be in two years' time. Again it's personal to you. It could be, that you want a house, you might currently be in rented accommodation and you want to get on the property ladder. Get your young family and yourself into your first property. Now the fact that it might be just a little two up, two down who gives a monkey's because in, next year, two or three years' time, you're walking with the removal van into this house, how will you feel? Good. The fact that one of the guys in the branch has got a great big five bedroom mansion is an elephant to you. That's five, six years down the road, maybe. Yes? But you're in there. It could be a damn good holiday. It could be that you've never taken your family abroad on holiday, so you set yourself a little objective, that in two years' time, I want to take them all, even if it's a damn package deal on a flight to Tenerife, do it, will you feel good, will the family enjoy it? You see these things are important aren't they? These are the things we're doing it for. It could be a car, like we've just said, but then again, I've never had a new car, it could be, are you with me. So it might be, just the fact that I have a new car. The Porsche might be here, but initially what I'd really like is a new car, and what I'd like to do is get up at midnight on the first of August, and drive around in my brand new car in the dark. Why do they do that? Eh, first of all they give them champagne so they all get caught drinking and driving, How do the police know? Why do they do it? I don't know, everybody driving around at nig , you, you go out first of August, at midnight. There's all these cars driving around, going beep, beep, ha, ha, look at my new car. What? Now, but it could be a new car. Let's say, let's say, let's say that Graham, who's a bigger hitter than me, and got more influence, and more influential client bank than me, his idea of a new car is a new X J S, a nice Jag, me, my dream car, I've never had a new car, is a nice Lada soft-top coupe, with G T X heated rear window, Okay. And it comes to the first of August, and Graham gets his car, his new X J S, and I get my new Lada, and we've been out at midnight doing all this, but we come to the branch in the morning, and he parks his X J S there, and I park my Lada next to it. I reckon we both feel the same don't you? Because I've achieved what I wanted, and he's achieved what he wanted. It's, it's what's inside you that matters isn't it? I'm going, well I've got it, it's important, do it, yes? First a little story. One of my objectives was to buy my wife a little car. At the time she had Ford Fiesta van, a blue van, which was alright, first time started, about four, four years old, five years old, good little road condition, but the children used to get in the back and as she went round bends it was like ten-pin bowling, dum, dum, dum, dum, went round another bit, dum, dum, dum, dum. Well A this was obviously dangerous, and B it was illegal. So you know, we couldn't do that, I mean it was great, the kids loved it. They had er, a little carpet at the back and their stickers all round it and inside it, it was a fun van if you like. So she was, she was into Volkswagen Polos, she's always liked a little run-around, she'd like a Volkswagen Polo, and . So what I did, I went round to tell the guy, John he was the sales guy at the local Vo , Audi-Volkswagen place, and I said, John, I want to buy Barbara a car. She's looking for a decent second-hand one, and I actually want to buy her a new one, and she doesn't know about it. So let's do the deal. Part-ex and all the rest of it, did the deal, negotiated, and said right what we want to do, is Saturday morning, she thinks she's going to come down and look at a decent second-hand one, and I want you to take the part, take the brand new car off and all the rest of it, and then say take that one for a test drive, which is mine, all taxed up and gassed up and all the rest of it, and we'll disappear in the moonlight. You're on he says. So Barbara, meself and a couple of the kids came along,, a couple of the kids were in on this, backing away sort of thing, and of course she went on this used car lot, and she's looking at these Volkswagens, and John was doing his bit, I believe you like Polos. He had about five or six Polos there, and of course they're all nice and shiny aren't they? Tyres are painted black. All clean inside, valeted and Barbara's going ooh, ooh, this is nice, the lights work and things like that you know. Okay. And John was great, and he showed her round and he said, well look, why don't you take one for a test drive. She said, ooh, yes, can I? He said, well take that one there. She said, ooh, it's a new one. He said, that's alright, take it. She said, alright, gets into this, and off we go down the road, the steering's all stiff, I tried it myself,, alright, all of sudden she got all excited at the indicators. They work, this little light goes on and off. She's doing all these things really thrilled to bits, and I say, well look, you like this don't you? She said, yes, I said look. John won't mind, let's keep it for the night, and take it back tomorrow morning. Well, B L didn't like this suggestion at all. You what, don't be so stupid we've got to go back and tell him, we can't do things like that. Of course we can, he won't mind, we know him, just let's go, we'll stop out for the day, and let's bring it back tomorrow. Don't be stupid. I said, look pull over, let's talk about it. So we pulled over, you see, and what we'd got, the kids at the back had a big card. They said, dad thought he'd give you this big card. And they handed to her, and it just said, Congratulations, you now own the Volkswagen Polo. I was alright that night! In fact it was demanded of me. Now there's a there's ha, ha,. There's a little story, but do you see what I mean, what working for yourself could give you? I mean, I actually , and she's still got it. A little D reg. Polo, she's still got it, she's not done twenty five thousand miles yet. It's in mint condition. Why? She loves it to death. It's been the best investment I've ever made. She won't get rid of it, because of the thought that went into it, it's great, Okay. But that's the sort of thing working for yourself can do, because. So please, think about it and do it, and get that enjoyment out of what we're offering. Longer term, well I don't know it, it could be you want your bigger house, your detached house, it could be that you want erm, status within the company. We've got er, associates and then we've got financial advisors, we've got sweet financial advisors look, and we've got What do you do for a living? Will you have Yes, I love it We've got executive financial advisors, and you name it. Which others, it's the status within the company I suppose if you want to put income against that, I mean I'm only guessing. Probably you're talking the thirty thousand plus, these are the forty thousand plus, and these may be the seventy five thousand plus a year guys. In five years' time, you sit yourself where you want to be. Now some of you in the room, believe it or not, will be happy to hit that and sit at that. Get yourself a nice little city financial advisor, a good client bank, get your five hundred clients. Good clients that you can go and see, and you can service regularly, you can go on the conventions each year, and you're quite happy. The top five percent will go for that, I hope you won't, you're not five percent, but some of you , you're all find where you want to be, isn't it, where you want to see yourself. Ideal , if you want to be down here, from there downwards, you're probably better going back doing what you did before. Your objective should be being at least there shouldn't it? Otherwise what's the point of going through the agony and collecting all these notes? Is that a fair comment is it? So if you like your original objective was at least get to there, then you can take stock. I think that's fair comment. Okay. We do that, then what we've got to do, we've got to plan the route haven't we? Now the good news is, this is where the company come in. Yes? Because you're sitting down with your partners and we'll give actually literature which your managers will give you. Which you, you'll go away with your partners and you'll discuss this, and you'll discuss what you want out of life. Inevitably, inevitably the pound sign will pop up won't it? The old pound sign. X amount is going to be needed to help me achieve my objectives. I'm sorry to say this, but the people that say money isn't everything, are the ones who've got it, aren't they? Yes The ones who haven't got it and say money isn't everything,Well they're on a different planet really, if you think about it. Of course it's everything, if you can't afford to feed your wife and children and look after the house. It's important. When you've got none, it, it's sad, but it's going to be everything. You know, so let's look at money in a sensible way, money is a means to an end for us to achieve our objectives and the style of, the standard of living that we want to spend our life and our partners and our families and all the rest of its lives together. It's the quality of life that we're going to have on this planet, it's going to be determined by that. As long as we've got that and peace of mind we can perhaps do things outside of what money can bring you. But you've got to have that peace of mind to be able to do that. Yes? Is that fair comment? You can always say if you disagree, it's just a general comment. So eventually you're going to have to sit down with us and tell us how much you want. Well, this is where we as a company will help you, to help you plan that route and monitor that route. So that on a monthly basis we will tell you if you're on target, checking your watch, you're below target, you're above target. But we can constantly monitor you. Would you like us to do that for you free of charge? or would you prefer to pay one thousand five hundred a year to a management consultant? Free Settle for free would you. Would you like that? Well you're not going to get it, you'll have to do it yourselves. Alright? You're going to have to put some input in if you want it for free, that's all I'm going to say. Is that a deal? A deal Because it would co , cost you a minimum of one thousand five hundred pounds a year to pay a management and business consultancy firm, to do this, what we're going to do for you absolutely free. We'll provide all your statistics, all your activity data, all your ratios and everything on how your business is running every month, absolutely free of charge. We'll send a copy to your manager, and a copy will come to you, so that you and your manager can sit down every month and discuss your next month's business plan. So you can actually say I need help, and he can actually say I'll give you this help, I want you to be doing this while you're doing this, I'm doing that, and we'll do that on a regular monthly basis. Initially you'll be doing it probably on a weekly basis, you'll be doing that. Yes? Would you like us to do that? How many people in the room have been introduced to er, Managing your Practice, before you came on the induction course? This thing? Business Planning? Yes Yes, Okay, you have, one. Right that's just determined to the level at which I can go at this stage then. Don't worry if you've not been told, it's very new, and the managers actually over this week and last week have been before the Group Managers effectively having the last bits of training done and workshops before we really launch it to the field. The people who've been going through the induction courses though for the last six months or so, they're probably up, more able to speak to it, and you're going to be better off actually than the, the old boys if you like and girls, because it's going to be old dogs, new tricks, but as you won't know any different and you do this, then you'll have an advantage over them. So much so in fact that they'll be looking to you to help them actually. This is it, Planning your Practice, this is what the subject's about. And, have you had , have you had a go at this yet? I've done my own, my own on this. So you've started looking at it, and it's got mapped out pretty much what we're saying here isn't it. Yes, he's left the business side to people. Yes, well all I'm going to do is introduce it to you, and when you actually get back he'll know more about it probably. We're actually get , sending him some software out on the computer so he can start playing and start understanding what the computer does. Yes, yes. So what that booklet does, is do the bit that we've just been talking about. And this is the bit where I said you need to sit with your partner and all, and really think about what your objectives and write them down. Then, you get that booklet and then you come and sit with your managers and you discuss it. And he'll tell if it's an elephant or not, he will won't he. He'll say, well I can understand that, but let's. But what's good now, is actually you can go onto a computer, and the computer will all say, also say, whoa, that's a bit unrealistic, that doesn't marry with that, that doesn't match that, no, alter your plan accordingly. We will do all this for you, and every month produces a report. But we've got to ask you to do something. If you go into that weekly han , that session hand-up booklet, that one yes, if you just hold it up Alistair, so everybody can see it, I know you may have put it away sorry, I think it's good practice isn't it? Yes, the back page is this thing here of that blue hand-out booklet, right, if you can just, if you can see one or somebody else's, instead of rummaging through that'll be fine. Is it in here? Yes, sorry it's in the back page of that. Just, that's it. Are you sure? All got it? This is your bit. This is your bit. From next Thursday night, when you do your telephone session, you must go live on this form that you'll be filling in the names that you are going to contact, right? And what actually happens is, there's a description of it in there, and I'm going to give you some more literature for you to peruse and get used to it, and you'll actually going to be working very closely with your management on this, right, is that you will record all your activity every week. How many approaches you've made, how many first interviews you've made, how many referrals you've got, yes? How many closing interviews you have, how many actual sales, because you might have a closing interview and no sale. Right, all the best. It tells you how many sales were agreed. What the actual, how many cases were written and what the estimated C C S A is, commission credit sum assured, I promise you, you will get to know that very quickly, because that's the basis on which you get paid. So just mentioning that at the moment causes confusion, you don't know what it is. It's called commission credit sum assurance, and the basis on which you get paid. You need to have a thorough understanding of that from your management on how your going to get paid, and what your financing levels are, Okay? Any policy delivery visits, number of referrals, total daily approaches at the top, and then what actually happens is, is you complete this, and every, this branch what they do, the people that do it, every Monday morning, they all come in here and have training sessions, and then there's computers around the branch. They actually just feed this information, it takes about three minutes on average to input the data off this into the computer, and it goes straight into the mainframe computer. You'll have your own password and everything. So it's all confidential it's covered by the Data Protection Act if you're worried about anything like that. And it goes into the computer. And we say takeover from there. But why do we need to do this? Well let's have a look at it from a simplistic point of view, Okay. I need to earn X amount, and I'm working in a town where I don't know anybody. I've been working abroad for the last twenty years, I've just come back to the U K and my family's all died, and I don't know anybody, and I'm going to start off working here. I don't know anybody. So the only way I'm going to start my business is, cold. Just as an example, because we don't like talking about cold, but just to give you a very simplistic example of how it can work. Your manager might say, well to earn X amount from the branch statistics and company statistics you actually need to, but you'll actually get this information off the computer, so I'm a for telling you that. It says, it might say you need to make erm, fifty calls. Pick up that phone and make fifty calls. So you, off you go and you make your fifty calls, and you make four contacts. But immediately monitoring is coming into play here, if I was your manager, but the computer will do this by the way, but your manager will spot that and say, have you made those fifty calls. You'll say, yes. Who are you ringing? Well publicans actually, because I used to be a publican, and I thought it would be a good idea if I, it's a good idea to ring people you've got empathy with. What time are you ringing? Oh lunchtime? No, No. Because what are publicans doing? Their staff are laid off and they're pulling the pints at lunchtime aren't they? So no, ring them, in fact ask one of your publican mates, you were one yourself, when was the best time you would have been contacted. Most probably about ten, ten thirty in the morning when I was you know, stocking up and things. Okay, so he rings at ten o'clock, ten thirty in the morning. He makes forty contacts. Ah, that's more like it. That's people picking up the phone. You make forty contacts, right, and you get one appointment. That tells me, what are you actually saying? Give us an example, make me appointment. Hello, is that Alan, is it Okay? Well that's not bad. Do it again, is that, yes, yes,, no me accountant deals with that. No, we need a little training session to brush up on handling the queries and objections that you may get, it's like we did yesterday afternoon. So what each branch has got is a little training room isn't it? Or it could be part of the training sessions, let's have what we were doing yesterday, skill drills, but you've got to practice it and practice it, until eventually from those forty contacts using a ratio of ten to one, we get four appointments. We go off on the appoint and we make no sales. Well what are you doing? What's your ice break like? Show me. What ice break? I'm not creating a report, Okay Are you painting the pictures when you're asking the questions?if you could, fine, good empathy, you doing a good fact find, right let's do a presentation shall we, let's see erm, ooh, you don't know how to ask for the order do you? You're not asking for the order, let's do some training on that. The monitoring process, until eventually I work out that I get my two sales. From two sales, if you do that, will earn you that guaranteed. So it works. But this is all going to be do, done far more sophisticated than that, so it's going to produce for you each month, one of these things. Okay? And this is a ph , like a photocopy, so what you'll have is a nice printed version with Abbey Life blue, purely for you to get a feel of if you like,, and in this, we're very quickly going to go through on the first sheet it will have activity and production and it will have your data there. Your key performance indicators, there's several indicators, if you like, indicating that your persistency is maybe going down, indicating that your product knowledge, you need a re-enlightened on certain products, if you like it's warning shots across the bow, hey or it's drawing your att , your attention to a certain area, yah? You may have a, a compliance issue outstanding, or whatever, or there's been a complaint against you, it will show up in here, it's very rare, but it's indicating that there's something that needs to be looked at. It's going to be . Personal development, your commission income, your review business development plans, it's a pity it's not available, it's coming in yet, the client bank and quality of business. The idea of the front page is a summary of the whole lot, yes, where you sit down with your manager on your one to one meeting, he's got a copy, you've got to meet, and you discuss these points. And if there's any areas or warnings of concern which you feel that you've both got, because he might think, he's got any, he's concerned about an area, but you don't see it as a concern, and you allay his fears. What you're concerned about is something totally different. You understand what I mean, that's management meetings. But what that means, is you can actually write an action plan, where you agree to do something, he agrees to do something, or she agrees to do something, and you work out your action plans. The data and information behind all those subjects is contained within. Which probably, I think because none of you have been introduced to it, would be too heavy to go through to any great extent. But actually, just look, turning the page, it tells you activity and production, right, how many days worked this year, forty days, how many weeks, eight days, and all the rest, and then if you see we can get this is based on your data, that you're feeding into the computer every week, and there's absolutely no purpose in putting false data in. In fact of course we put failsafe systems in because we've got so many statistics and everything, because if you start putting false data in, it will be identified. The computer will say, this ain't right, and come out and tell us. So don't lie, if you're having a bad month, or you're having a bad week or you haven't had any sales, put it in the computer, because that's going to be identified, it comes up on here, so that your manager can help you. He can't if you put in, if he thinks everything's rosy here, he can't help you, but in fact you're going down the swanee, you're only fooling yourselves. But it'll tell you how many first appointments you've had, how many fact finds you did, how many subsequent presentations, how many, how many sales you did in September ninety three, week, all the rest of it, and right at the bottom here it's got the ratios, right, how many approaches to sales agreed. You had to make twenty seven approaches to make one sale. Well if I was his manager, what would I be working on? His approaching techniques. His straighter, that's far too many, let's have a look at what you're saying on the phone, let's really, really home in on that, and practice, and practice, and practice. we're beginning to see sales technique you need to, you look at. It's not sales technique until he actually gets the appointment, he can't present anything. Sorry,appr , approaches, He's had twenty seven. That's for the month, mind. Yes, yes. Okay. Are you with me? Now on the next page, it's all about C C S A, how much you've actually earned, you're not interested in that. Sh, sh,and it continues to go through this, and I say, you can see, it's very, very comprehensive, and very, very detailed. I assure you all the information in there will become second nature to you. It does, it might not seem it at this moment in time, but eventually you will understand everything that's in there, and what it means to you, yes? Now we're going to provide this for you absolutely free. As a monitoring system, yes? On the computers very sure, this is already in the system this, and already being used, we are just, it won't be of any benefit unti , until you actually start working on true data. But in the meantime we will work on company averages for you, until you've started building six months' data. From six, so if you give us data every week for the next six months, and as I say, in six months' time, we'll then be working on actuals, but until that time, we'll work on company averages for you, so that you've got a plan to work to. But with this individual plan, does it say somewhere, erm, go about commission status, somewhere near the back, Commission earnings, current balance, for commission potentially, it's got in July of ninety three he earned seventeen thousand three hundred and seventeen pounds in the bucket potential commission. That doesn't mean he's going to draw it, he's actually drawing on average this guy around a thousand, hundred pounds, one thousand two hundred pounds he's been thousand pounds, but he's actually drawing one thousand two. Why's he doing that? To build up his To build up his pot, because he might have a bad month, or he might want to go on holiday. If you go on holiday for a month, you want another pay cheque going in at the end of the month. If you haven't done any business, you've no income, so he's left it in the pot, so he can draw another one thousand two hundred. You see how it's working? Yes, of course. If it's left in the pot, is there any interest on it? Erm. No, because it's not actually yours, it's just an advance? It's, it's, it's an advance, but no, it's not it's, honestly I can't oh, I mean, this is all to do with interest plans , you can't answer the question, I'm sorry, sorry. Happy with that, are you happy with that, Okay? That's that, there's a guide to managerial practice, I'm going to give you, you'll be saying Oh, my God, all this information. I assure you, just hang on to it, start glancing through it, start getting familiar with it. The important thing I want you to have is, is start on that activity data sheet, get in your discipline of writing everything you do on that sheet and inputting it every week, so that you're getting actual data as soon as possible. It will be to your advantage. Okay? I think that's a good time for us to have a coffee break, yes? I'm trying to go as fast as I can. You have actually got one? Yes, it's an executive briefcase isn't it. It's an It's just It's only a hole in it, he said oh, no it's I didn't make a bad job. Yes, it looks like it. It's alright, Bob, we'll tidy up later. Urgh, how's your breakfast sitting. Very nicely thank you. Mr can you tell us about er work? Did you get a job as soon as you left school? Yeah. Er I'd be fourteen in the June and we used to have to keep on till the end of the term which was August. And we have four weeks' holiday at August. And when we broke up I, I said, er well that's it now. We all the lads that left at the same time, said, we've got four weeks' holiday before we look for work. So that was alright till we got home. And I said to the old man I says, er well that's it now. I said, I've got four weeks. he said, you bloody haven't, he says, you're gonna look for work. I said, I've, I've got four weeks' holiday before. He says, you're gonna look for work. He was out of work. He couldn't get . So er we used to go through the motions and er after about er three weeks I think it was, no, yeah, two or three weeks anyway. We were going round actually looking for work, not ve very keen but we were, we were looking for it. We'd go to Boots, walk, Boots, and we'd start in, in the meadows in, in , in Street. Then we'd walk up to Boots up Road. We'd walk through the lace market, we'd walk up to, and then we'd walk round to . All in the day. No buses, no bus fare, no nothing. Er any vacancies? No, sorry. Any vacancies? No. It was half-hearted. E eventually I did get a job. In, in Street, just a couple minutes from, from my home. And they said I, I could be an apprentice fitter. And the wages were seven and thruppence a week. So I went home quite pleased, gonna learn a trade, to be a fitter. Quite pleased, went home and er told my dad, I says er I says, I've got a job. He said, good, where at? I said,. He said, what you're gonna do at it? I says, it's er apprentice fitter. He says, how much is a week? And I says, seven and three. He said, that's no good. He says, you can get ten and thruppence at . Good lot of the lads in used to li work at . So he said, you can go and try . And so I went there and they er I eventually got on. At ten and thruppence a week. And that was in the splitting job where you was handling skins, sheep skins. And with the lime and the chemicals that makes your fingers sore, what are called birds eyes. That red raw. You could you couldn't bear them a night time. And you used to wear er er leather I've still got a skin. This or someone else's sister would be they used to give you this to make your . You cut a, a piece out and you'd sew it up, like that you see. That, that sort of thing er you used to wear them to protect, to protect your fingers cos it used to get red raw if you didn't. Anyway I started there, I got the ten and three a week and er eventually not very good, at that time quite a lot of short time. And they didn't have three days on and three days off, you used to go in this particular shop at eight o'clock and maybe finish at half past ten or eleven o'clock because there was no more skins coming through. And what exactly were you doing? Wh what exactly was your job? Splitting. splitting shop. Now that's a sheep skin. You see or it was. The splitting machine, that's one half of a sheep skin, that's the outside. Now the splitting machine used to cut that skin down there like that. Cut it in half then? Split it in two. So you got two skins. Now one half, this would maybe go for clothes, er coats,or . And the other half used to go as a window leather which are called st Chamois Chamois Chamois leather, that's it. Mm. And so you got th two skins out of, out of one sheep. Er one would go one process and another would go the other. Er that was the splitting shop. There was all sorts of processes before it got to that and after it got to that stage. Er And what exactly was your job in the splitting shop then? Well I worked with a man, on a machine. And a we used to get the skin, I used to pick the skin up. Give him one part, now you hold that, I used to hook it on to a roller, tuck it over, pull it through and then you've got it lined up hooked on to a roller. And then he used to bring the knife, there was a knife going like that, a big knife, One about four foot. And th this knife was going like this and the roller was pulling the skin round. And it was pulling, the one that you'd hooked on was pulling that one and the other one going out the back. So you, you, you, that was splitting. Now do you actually remember going to work, the first day you were, you were going to work? The first day yeah, short trousers. Er the first day I didn't stay dinner. home but it was only a few yards anyway from . So eventually we, I, I, I used to get er couple slices of bread, and I used to get thruppence every day. Now I, I'd got all sorts of alternatives to buy. had a pork shop in Street. we'd have a choice of three pennyworth of which were a, which was a big chunk, three pennyworth of , brawn, potted meats, er what else is there ? Three pennyworth of corned beef,er and then you, you, you could go down on to the fish and chip shop in Street. And get er three hap'orth of chips, three hap'orth of fish bits. Which was a good meal, substantial meal you know for thruppence. Now from being at school, enjoying yourself and enjoying yourself, and , and going to work, did you feel differently? Feel? Did you feel differently with working? No I don't think so. Did you enjoy work? Yeah. Funny thing, I've, I've enjoyed every job I've done. And I mean that. Er the splitting shop wasn't, wasn't particularly good I, I'd say. But you were glad to get a job, that were the thing. That made you pleased. But once I got out of the splitting shop out into the dry, handling leather rather than skins, er it were terrific, absolutely terrific. I were in a buffing shop. And the buffing shop used to er get buff that side, make it smooth you know. Well Then I went glazing. How much of a difference to your family did it make that you were working, financially? Well. When I went home a when I was started at ten and thruppence a week, it was a regula regulation in the family that the spending money erm basis, what you got for spending, was a penny in the shilling. Now I earned ten and thruppence, used to take the ten and thruppence home and I used to get tenpence ha'penny spending money. Weren't eleven pence, weren't ten pence, weren't a shilling, tenpence ha'penny. And that was it. Then that went when you're fifteen, I was fifteen I were getting twelve and six. Same again, one shilling and a ha'penny. Not one and a penny, not a shilling. Till I was er I went, I left and went to gun factory. Er . And then when I was eighteen er eighteen, yeah, started paying my board then. Pound a week. Er while you were working did you still try and get sort of like odds and ends and little bits of money? Yeah,wh when you was on short time, ooh yeah. We used to , I've sold card of the match, at, at cricket matches. I've sold cushions at the cricket matches. Quite a few of us from used to go down to cricket match. And motors, when, football mat and reserve matches at , we used to, there were one or two, weren't many cars about then you see. But there was a few. And we could look after cars at the er reserve matches. Now wh while you were working,w w was your father working at this time? No not very often. Very seldom. He did work on er County er Stand, the one that's still there. He, he, he, he did a f a few jobs and, and, and they were nearly all temporary. They didn't last long. Most all, all labouring jobs. And none of them last long you know. You couldn't get a regular job, or he couldn't anyway. And erm did your mother work or was she bringing up the family? My mother used to er whe when we were younger used to come down the for a days' scrubbing, charring. Er she did one or two jobs there. Well, er Was there a lot of erm drinking used to go on in the, in the, in the area at the time? Well you take, to hear, to hear them talk you, you'd think everybody were drunk every night but it wasn't so. Er I've known er one bloke he, he'd send for a pint of Shipstons beer when it was sixpence a pint, and then he'd send for another pint and he'd be drunk, or, or he'd be ready f to fight anybody that wanted to fight him. And there usually was somebody ready to fight him for twelve, especially on a Saturday night . Now Saturday night in Street, we used to call it the waits, Street waits, every Saturday night. You could guarantee that if you waited top of one of those yards that somebody would be fighting or wanted to fight or a window could get broken or, or either men or women. Men and women, they'd just fight each other but women used to have a go,ar argue not f particularly fighting but you know falling out. And, and the men they of often used to have a go. And the lads . Did you have any real characters in th in the ? Oh yes, yeah. I'm not going to name them because of the family, they're dead now. Oh yes, there was one er, he had a knighthood. Er people who, who er who lived do th they'll know, and then the family will know. Cos he, he was Sir, you know. Oh and there was er Why did they used to call him Sir? Well he, he, he used to go to er used to go to the British Legion, every Sunday morning. Now he, he had about he about seven or eight kids I think, he must have done, yeah. Two, three, four, five,, yeah. And in the week, I don't think he was working at the time, but on a Sunday morning he'd walk out of that terrace house and er he'd be immaculate, absolutely. He'd have a walking stick, he'd have a buttonhole, a top hat and a stiff collar, and he'd swing this cane and walk up the street. There goes Sir yes. What reputation did the have with other areas at the time? Was it seen as being a rough place? Did it what? What reputation did the have with other areas of at the time? Was it thought to be rough by everyone else? Oh yes, we had a reputation. Er I'd a lad, a Street,,, that's what it,they used to call us. Er yeah, well you know we were rough because, but I mean if we got into a fight, there we there were no gang warfare. There was a gang of us, but I mean er if one of us got involved with a fight it was him and him. And we used to stand down and leave it at that. No nobody'd interfere. You know, it was a fair fight, there were no kicking. We'd just fight and that was it. and I suppose, I, I well I, I used to go about with a gang but we, we never raided anybody. You know, you, you used to talk about raids and er a black hand gang and all this sort of thing, but we no. If there was any trouble we, we'd fight but one on one. Wouldn't gang up four onto one, five onto one, and, and mugging and noth nothing, none, none of that nonsense. How long wer were you actually at then? Well I started at fourteen and I, I had to leave er when I was fifteen and, no, nearly sixteen. And then I went back at er eighteen until I were twenty, twenty three I think it was. Now why did you leave first time? Got a short time. were only working half days. And where did you go? And what did you do there? I started painting and then I went to be rivet hotter. And then I was rive riveter's mate. I really enjoyed that. Really enjoyed it. Was it what was the differences that you noticed between and ? What, what Different what? What, what, what were the big differences between the two? Well it, it were the variety you got at . You see, er there, there was a riveter, and a holder up, his mate, and a rivet hotter. That's yo that was the team. Now we, we used to build the frame of a coach, Sentinel er Passenger Coach. We used to build all the frame and the roof, riveted, no fitted. Er bolt it together first, and then rivet it after. So all, all the time th th there were different job. Different size rivets, different lengths, and I, while I were hotting hotting I knew where, eventually knew where, what size rivet to put in a certain place. And you used to get them hot ready for, for the rivet for the riveters. And then we'd get onto the roof with the little tiny rivets, quarter inch rivets. And maybe an hour after we'd be on three quarter rivets. Or five eighths or half inch, so you got the variety as well and different jobs to do all day long. And wh why did you leave there? Well it closed down. And how, how did you get back into then? Well er my mother went down the yard, I won't tell you about the other, sister. My mother went down the yard and seen the boss and asked him if he could get and the fact that my mother went down the yard I suppose er he must have felt sorry for us. Anyway I got back and er Was it the same wages? On no, I was older then you see, I was er I was, they sent me straight back into the splitting shop. And within er a week I was told to go into the dry part, handling, in the buffing shop. Er and then I was on my own time in the buffing shop, and I was getting a man's wages. So what, what were you coming out with then? Mm? What, what were you getting then? Er let's see er, around about thirty shillings about thirty, thirty five bob a week. Which were good money for a single fella. Erm now you said you went away, you lived away from home for a bit, when you when you were eight Mm? Did you say you lived away from home for a bit? Yeah, when I were eighteen. Now erm you were saying bef was there a union at the at the time? Oh yeah. What you, what you There wasn't. You, you lost your job trying to start one. No th there was a union we were trying to enrol more members. Oh. Oh the union was there, the Amalgamated Society of Leather Workers. It was a national union, but it was a crime more or less with some bosses to belong to a trade union. Now it's a crime if you don't belong to a trade union. You see, I think, although I can't prove this, you see what happened, when I was in the, in the glazing shop we were, we were on short time. And instead of er having half day every day cos there were no prospects of, of much stuff coming through, they'd say well we'll all have two weeks off each. Two men will have two weeks off and it were twelve in the shop. So two would be off for a fortnight, and then two more and then two more. Now the fella that I worked with was the president of the union from the branch. And I was er doing my part I thought to change the world and get everybody into the union so we could get, get better conditions for, for everybody and all this, more money anyhow. Er and I used to go to night school to learn, er National Council of Labour Colleges, to learn economics. Er and eventually we changed the foreman,the union changed the foreman. And the foreman er we used to play about, lark about, throw orange peel at each other you know, cos it were a boring job you just stand like this and you could more or less close your eyes, you know. After a while so to, to relieve the boredom we used to throw orange peel at each other, little bits you know, screw it up and, and one hit this bloke who was made foreman before, before he was made foreman a and we had a fight. He come at me and he was six foot two and he come he were gonna knock hell out of me so I had to protect myself and we got fighting in the shop. Anyway we, we forgot about it and, and then he was made foreman later. So I thought well that's . Anyway when the time came to, to, to stop off for short time everybody had had their turn except the union president and myself and he came to me this foreman and he said er, now John I don't want you to think what happened between me and you will make any difference about being sent back for. I said, well I hope not anyway, I says er, if you do I shall have a go at you. So er time went on, I didn't get the sack, I just wasn't sent back for. Neither was the union man. Now how did you become involved with the union? Are you Well always interested in politics? No, no. I went in this shop with this, next to this fella. And when I hear that , when you're working you're talking as well and he, he, he was a good talker and, and he, you know, he was a good union, a good clever speaker and he impressed me. Er and then he got me he er he got me interested in politics and he got me going to this N C L C evening evening classes. And I got interested and you know it wer I was parti very very interested in, in economics. And did you become a union represent did you get involved in union politics? Oh yes I I was on the committee at . Er I was on the committee on the buses, but that was later. I was a rotor man for Bridge Depot. Er yes I was very keen, I'm very interested. Er What did your family and do your friends have views about politics? I means did they, were they surprised you become involved? Yes er I remember a chap at the depot doing the Spanish Civil War er wh th there was a movement going round collecting food for the, or money for food for the children of Spain. Children. And I was in the depot and I and I was er trying to er get some money for, for this thing or, or doing something for it anyway, and this bloke said, said John , he said, what the bloody hell are you got interested in the people of Spain for? We're talking about nineteen thirty six now thirty seven. I said, well, I said, If we don't those bombers in and, and Spain we're gonna get them over here. I didn't realize what I was saying but it proved to be true. Those bombers in, in bombing the people of Spain bombed us eventually. Anyway er that was the , er no nobody else made any comment, one or two was s s surprised. You know that I should be interested, well I was the secretary of Labour Party for a time. Whe when you started off becoming interested in politics when you were working at ,we were your friends surprised? Were they not interested in politics or, or your family? No, no, you see it's the fact that you're working, your conditions, your environment, if you're working in a certain place it's almost built up in the beginning. It wasn't till, till people got together into factories and, and er workshops and, and things like that. And working in close relation and discussing things that this is exactly what happened at . Now i i in one shop er you'll never hear mention of politics, it would be all football, football man, football this, football the other. But if you get involved working with somebody else who may be interested in politics then you start talking and this is how it develops. I mean er you see th I should say there was about six or seven who were keen on, on, on the trade union. They weren't reds, communists, or anything like that, they were just good trade union men. And they'd be talking, now you could bet they could get somebody interested in that shop on, on politics or trade unionism, they'd get one in that shop. Now erm was it through this union activity you became interested in the Labour Party? It's same thing, same man. I see, and did you, did you do a lot of canvassing for them and all this sort of thing? At election time oh yeah. Have you got any stories about that? Er well I were out of work and er municipal elections used to come in November. Er and er there were great rivalry between, between the Con er the Conservatives and the er Labour Party. And er apart from canvassing which we did. A canvass, cos I was a block steward, I used to collect the, the stubs and at election time we would do a canvass of our own block. Er asking people whether they were favourable, or mark them favourable or not favourable and so on. Er and then w we used to do the bill posting, vote for so and so, or vote for so and so. We used to stick ours up and if we see any fresh blue ones we should pull them down. Er and they used to do the same to ours. Er then election day we were out all day with, with a driver of a car getting people out and for them or going through the motions. I've looked after the kids for them while they've gone to vote, anything to get them here, that was the thing. Cos they, they er Walter used to say, any positive voters we must get them out on the day. And apart from that time during er elections etcetera how much involvement would you have just a normal we week, where there's no elections on or anything? Did you have meetings very often? Er well yes at er there were several er Michael Foot, Fenner Brockway, Stafford Cripps and Jimmy Maxton and Harley Pollet and Jimmy Gallagher. There was communists, there was I M Ps, there were Labour Party men, and at that time there was a unity campaign. Er it were led by Sir Stafford Cripps and er Michael Foot. Fenner Brockway, well I, I've gone to meetings in the Albert Hall, and I've gone to meetings at Sheffield. I, I joined the er demonstration in Hyde Park. Er when the Durham Jarrow marchers came Er we was there for the er when they came in. Er were several meetings, public meetings. Oswald Mosely, he was in the Albert Hall when, when all that trouble was, we were together then weren't we? At er Oswald Mosely you you used to go the weekly meetings the Labour Party. the month That's what that's what you're talking about isn't it, the weekly meetings? Monthly, monthly meetings. Pardon? Monthly meetings. Monthly meetings Yeah you used to go to Oh yeah it was a monthly meeting. Could you tell us about Oswald Mosely, and s and wh what happened then? Well er first of all you'd get the minutes of the last meeting and then you, you'd get correspondence and then you'd get chairman's remarks. And then somebody would bring something up. It may be the pro prospective candidate or panel name to go forward on a prospective candidate or something like that er and then there'd be er a talk by, by the chairman about the finances or what we ought to do er to organize er events to improve the finances. It was all about money or you know there wasn't a great deal of political activity or, or great deal of political work done in, in the Labour Party. It was all done er er the borough Labour Party. Now you got, you got, you got your war ward which was nothing because the wards was er the chairman and the secretary absolutely . You know, er er and they'd tell people and, and there was no, never much debating as such. What you laughing at? Nothing. go on. He er he asked you about er wh who was it? Mosely, did you say that you went to see Mosely in a meeting? We went to a public meeting at the Albert Hall, me and her, when Sir Oswald Mosely came to . Er and a lot got chucked out. When was this? Ooh nineteen thirty six or seven. And was he, go on. Before we was married. Thirty six or seven. Thirty six. And we, we was up in the, in the, it was a protest as far as I was concerned. Yeah. You know and we went and we booed and er a lot got thrown out, cos he had his mobsters there you know. And er he were a bit rough with them and all. Ah. Was there a lot of trouble then? Wasn't a great deal of trouble in but th there was in the East End of London if you, if you we can read, can read about that. Er and in several places where he did go because he, he, his supporters were thugs really. You know there were no doubt about that, they were And how much, how much were your subs for the Labour Party, how much was your membership? Ooh er wasn't er I can't remember now. I think it was er wasn't a great dea sixpence I think it was. And when did you join the Labour Party? Ooh I'd be ninetee er twent I'd be twenty so nineteen thirty three. And, and were there sort of like clubs and societies associated with the Labour Party that, that you got involv No, no, no, no. No, the Labour Party as far as I was concerned was just a meeting, a monthly meeting,in above the Co-op in Grove. Where the Co-op used to be, not the Co-op now. In that room up there, once a month, and at elections times and that was it, no more. I see. Now, now you were saying before your father er was unemployed quite a lot of the time during your childhood erm did he actually get any Unemployment Benefit while he was on the dole? Yes er, now what did get? There were U A B, Unemployment Assistant Board and there was a means test at the time as well. Er when I was s I used to get eight shilling at one time Unemployment Benefit. And you'd got to go and look for work. And you, you'd got to tell them that you'd been, where you'd got, where you'd been. You know. Er Did you know how much your dad got? No. No no no not can't remember now, not to be sure. Would the what exactly was the means test invo what did that involve? Did they come and visit your house? No you, you, you were called to, to the Labour Exchange. Er I think a court of referees I think they called it. Yeah. Wasn't it? Ah. Yeah. That that just come to me now. Court of referees. You didn't get money did you? You got food, food tickets. Ah ye yeah it, it depends how You didn't get money. how much er you'd got and how much you'd got coming in and how much you'd, you'd you know, your, what your erm commitments were and Right. you know. Er Did, did you at the time or in the thirties did you have any involvement with the Unemployment Claims Union or anything like that? I didn't. No No. not myself, no. Were other people involved in with it? Oh well there must have been. Must have been. Yeah, but er didn't you go to an Unemployment School? Eh? An Unemployment School. A club, an unemployment club. What, what was that? Well it was a place on Street, and it's still there, that one. It's above, above the shop, just above , up the stairs. And there was a big room and you and you could go there and, and make things out of wood. I've got a table somewhere I've made. Er or you could make anything and there was an instructor there showing you. You'd got the tools and different things and show you how to use them. You, you paid for it. Yeah, but didn't you have to go there to get your dole? Oh no, no, no that was that was a school. Ah that's the one I'm thinking about. Ah that's Street. Now when we was between sixteen and eighteen if you was unemployed you'd got to go to school. Half day every day. One week you'd go in the mornings, the next day you'd go in the afternoon. This was at Street Lad's Club, still there. Now but we had teachers, the headmaster of Street School, he was the head teacher at the out of work school. And then we had a, a two one teacher who, who later was at School. , Mr , er and he'd give us sums, arithmetic, tell us stories, er historical events or something like that. But what we were keen about was football. One teacher, he used to say, well what we gonna do today? Oh come on, let's go down Lane and have a game of football. you see. He used to play with us as well. We used to go, it's a nice day Mr , I go down, football. Come on then, and we, we'd walk down to Lane and play our game of football. But you'd got to go, and you'd got to mark your register and, and if you didn't go you'd lose a day's dole. At tha at this time in, in the twenties and early thirties was there a lot of people unemployed in, in Street and around there? Oh yeah, yeah. Oh yes. Er there were very very few that had a regular job, really. Er c c the density of, of the Street itself er cos you was nine terraces with twenty four houses in, in two hundred yards you've got a lot of people together haven't you? Er and, and the people that had a regular job, now there was one next door to us. He, he, he was er more or less well off, still in, in Terrace but you know he was, they seemed to be well off and probably were. Cos he had good regular job at . But er now in, in, in our yard, on our, our side, there'd, there would be er one, two three, four only four out of the twelve or thirteen houses the, the men had a regular job. And that was pretty, it was, it'd vary in, in some cases but in som it was worse than that and some were better than that, but generally speaking there were a lot of unemployment. Tell him about . What He'd come and borrow In, in, in, in one terrace and I'm not gonna mention names again because the, the family's still around, you know, and I don't want to embarrass them. But we'd to go down th one yard and, and in the middle of the yard there was a gap between the lavatories and, and the coal houses, just about er four foot s square. Well that's where we used to play cards, on top of the dustbin. A dustbin lid and put a board over it you know. And this man he was a regular dustbin, dustbin man and he'd been at it all his life and he used to play cards with us and his family, his sons, and, and as many else as got any money to play pontoon or brag. And because he wa he was really the only one that was in regular work in, in the yard, I'm sorry well there was another one but still, there wasn't many, everybody was short of something some day. And it would always come at weekends. And it would always come when we were playing cards. First one, Mrs so and so, me mam says, it was always me mam says, mam says can you lend her cup of sugar? Er mam said, can you tell her time please? Mam said, have you got a penny for the gas? Mam says, have you got a tub of vinegar? Or, or anything, you know so this er man one day he says, we were playing cards, he said, I'm bloody fed up with this. He said now what do they want? So me mam says so he went in the house and says his, his wife's name, he said, give me a pencil and paper. He got a sheet of paper about that long to all concerned we have no salt, pepper, mustard, vinegar, our clock does not keep good time, er Sugar. oh tea, sugar. He, he put all down and he, he pinned it on the back on the back door Did, did a lot of this helping of each other go on? Oh yes, yes. People er I mean th they couldn't help a lot because they'd got nothing themselves a lot of them but there was a lot of help done without any fuss or bother, I mean er er a bloke'd say er, have you got a fag? Er well I've only got Silk Cut. okay. Now to get in a pub, that was another thing. Of many, in summertime we always used to stand at the top of the yards, you know, men and women. Men used to be down on haunches you know and the and the women stand there arms folded gassing, gassing away. Er and then somebody'd come along and say, are you Jack? Can't. Why? I haven't got a lap latch lifter. Couldn't get in the pub because he hadn't got a latch lifter. Now a la latch lifter was thruppence, his first half pint. Now once he got in for his half, half pint in, in the in the passage he'd have, he'd have a good swig and, and it was about when he'd got to bottom of the glass put it down. I say what did you do that for? Well it holding it in pawn, waiting for somebody to ask him to have a drink, and invariably somebody would but if they did ask him they'd always ask him back next time you know if they couldn't do it this time. That, that was the, you know there was that sort of spirit, there were very few scroungers er well there were scroungers of course but few people who er who didn't repay if, if they had a drink they bought one back. They'd say, are you coming in? No I can't buy you one back. That don't matter now. And they wouldn't go in if they couldn't buy one back. There were a lot of that sort of thing. Oh yeah. Right Mr could you tell me when and where you were born? When and where? I was born on June the eighth nineteen thirteen in an place called in Carmarthenshire, South Wales. And how big was the family at the time? Well my my mother had five children with her previous husband and my father met my mother while this fella was ill and he eventually died with T B and my father married my mother and took on these five children i in, in South Wales. And were you the first born? I was the first of the . And how large eventually did the family get to? Let's see there was er Nelly, Edna, Tommy, Edward, and Donald. Five er ten, ten eleven. Nelly, Tommy, Nelly, Edna, Donald, Edward, Eunice that's seven isn't it? Mm. Twelve. Now could you tell us about how it came about that you moved to ? Mm. Oh after the war, the Fi First World War, my father was er sent home wounded in nineteen eighteen or nineteen nineteen. And he was a wounded pensioner er and he, he applied for a grant which you, which er a wounded soldier in the First World War could get if you had a pension he could get a grant of that pension to learn a trade. And he could also apply to go to and take a course of, of instruction on or a trade to learn a trade. And it he went to College. And he did the course and after he'd finished the course he found a house up Road and er sent for the family. So my mother brought us all to on the train and er I was at that time about let's see nineteen thirty twenty I think I was eight years of age then. I see and how long did you live there up Road? Er not very long because he er he started a business and er and he didn't do ever so well cos times were bad in the twenties you know as you know. And er the rent was twenty one shillings at that time which was rather a lot for a council house so we had, had an exchange down to Street in the where the rent was about seven and six which was a big difference. Now the has changed a lot recently Mr . Could you describe what it was like when you first moved there, the area itself? Yeah, well take er there were some good patches in the you know, there were some quite decent houses and some very nice people. But there were some like me I suppose on the other side. Er now t take, take a, take one street er we'll say Street. It were known as Park. Now that, that Street with, with, from two hundred yards of it there'd be nine, nine terraces each with twenty four houses in each terrace within this two hundred yards so there were a lot of people closely knit together and er there was quite a lot of unem unemployment, quite a lot of poverty. Yet people were friendly, you know. They'd do anything for you within reason you know. Er they'd help each other, if they were sick er well let's say quite a lot were unemployed down there and there were always someone that, I've seen men stand at top of yard and say, have you got a fag Jack? He say, well I've o I've only got two and he'd, he'd break a Woodbine in half and they'd have half each. And instead of having a few puffs and, and saving and throwing two dog ends away you didn't see that, they'd just break it in half and have half each. Now you were saying just then that erm parts of the were different than the other parts. Yeah. In what way? Well there seemed to be like er Grove, er Road, Road, it, it seemed a bit better off you know. They seemed to have more money. Er well I suppose it's the same nowadays you know isn't it? And on the estates sort of people, there were different ty types of people but Street would ha ha had a name. Yeah there were a few characters down there. Er well I'm not gonna mention their names now but er quite a few characters, believe me. Er I were telling you about the pianos, in one particular terrace you could just imagine it in, what, nineteen er twenty si no , twenty seven twenty eight, and you know things were bad, you talk about the thirties, the twenties were worse than that. I've seen th this fella came down and he was selling pianos and er he went down this particular terrace and he must have sold seven, eight, or nine or ten on, on both sides. At one and six a week. And the, the price was thirty nine pounds and as far as I know at the time the, the pianos went down that terrace I don't think anybody could play it properly. They'd, they'd all have a little bash, one or two fingers you know, I did even on, on, on one particular one. Er but nobody could really play the piano yet they all bought them. And eventually there was quite a few went back before they were paid for. Er at th M Mr er could you tell us about your sch where did you go to school? Road. And how old were you when you, when you first went? Road School, no sorry, Road. Road School I'd be ten I should think, nine or ten. Aye. I wasn't there very long cos I only went in one class in Road School. Then we moved to the and then I went to Road School, which I finished my time there, fourteen. I left at fourteen. Now can you remember what you were taught at school, the curriculum? Yes. Hist well it'd be first of all it was er an hour of religion, where the headmaster used to have us all together, all the classes together. And, and sing hymns and maybe have er a lesson or two on one particular part of the bible. And after that you'd go to your own classes and you had a, a set er what did they call it? Set er programme where you had er maybe an hour's arithmetic. Addition, subtraction, multiplication, and so on, do so many sums a day, each lesson. And after that you'd maybe have er well be playtime then. And about ten minutes playtime running round the yard, come back and maybe have a history lesson. Er maybe half and hour history and half an hour geography and er science er but it were all ele very elementary stuff. Er wasn't nothing technical, you know. Was the discipline very strong in the school? Oh yes, very strong. One man in particular er again I won't mention his name but anybody that went to Road School'll know who I, I mean when I say that if you did anything wrong he'd call you out and ask you something and if you, if you like pupils used to be a bit shy and, and not speak to him he'd slap you across the face. I mean slap not just sideways with his hand and then he'd give you the strap after that. Er one case I know he, he's so well known amongst the old lads er he used to give you so many sums to do each day and I think it was four or five long division. And when you're learning them,you know it's alright now but when you're learning it's very difficult. It was to me. So you used to take these five sums out to be marked and he'd put right, tick, right, wrong, right, you know. And he said to me, he'd marked my, my sum and, and as it happened they was right, all of them. So whether he didn't believe that I, I'd got them right or not I don't know but the answers were there . And then he picked one particular line out he said, where did you get this figure from? Now as you know when we used to do the sums we used to have a little bit of paper and, and work it out on this separate bit of paper, but he said to me out of the blue he said, where did it, how did you get that figure? Well at that particular time I couldn't tell him. I says er, I don't know Sir. never went to me spare bit of paper probably eventually but he hadn't got time for that. So I said, I don't know, sir. He looked at me, he said, you've copied, haven't you? I said, no Sir. Because the bloke next to me used to give cakes to to copy off me . Anyway er he says, you co I said, no sir. So he, he slapped me across the face. He said, you've copied, haven't you? I said, no sir. He said,, he got the strap out of the desk,about three or four, you must know what a strap is don't you? One, come on, hold it up, two, three on that hand, three on this hand. Six straps and a slap across the face and I hadn't copied. And when he'd s finished he said, you've copied, haven't you? I said, no sir. And he, he said, go on. Oh it was, it, if you did anything wrong especially with that fella you, you were, you were a . Oh yes, there were no er there was no er no nonsense, I mean you wouldn't dare answer the teacher back like they did now and call them by their christian names. We wouldn't dare do that, we wouldn't think of doing that. Did you have any favourite subjects at school? Yeah, geography. Yeah, I was always well er in that particular class from that I was always either the top of the second or the third at geography. Now did you want the s did you ever have the chance to stay on at school? No I didn't even get a chance to, to sit the eleven plus. I wasn't allowed to s sit for the eleven plus. Well why was that? My father said I'd got to leave school at fourteen. And would you have wanted to stay on? Mm I don't think so I, I wasn't er, I were all for looking for a, going to work, you know. I wanted to go to work, I I didn't want to stay at school. Can you remember when you were at school what sort of games you used to play? Oh yeah, cricket, football, er sometimes rounders, swimming, snubs, rum-stick-a-bum, tin-lurky. Could you explain what those last three were? Snubs etcetera. Five stones they call it, you know. Snubs you know what I mean don't you? They had the five cubes and you chuck them on back of your hand and eight dobs, nine er nine flies, ten and you know. Er rum- stick-a-bum What's that? Well that was one would stand against the wall and about four would get down like that and you had a team say of five. And you'd say, Rum- stick-a-bum here I come, and you'd run and hop onto and get on as far a onto these backs as you could. And you'd all got to get on, and stay on for a little while without touching the floor, then you could have another go. And then we'd tin-lurky er you, you, you'd get a tin, you don't, you know tin-lurky? Go on, go on. You, you get a tin er and whoever's sort of looking after the tin, er somebody kicks it, one'll kick the tin and then you all go and hide, and he has to find you before you can come back and kick the tin. So while he's looking for you somebody could run out and kick the tin, there you go and fetch him, and if he'd caught anybody and when you kicked that tin the other, well you could all go and hide. You sort of released him to, to go and hide again. Er rounders which is er similar to er I dunno American baseball in, in a fashion isn't it? Well we used to play that in the street you see, have the lampposts, the top of the yard and there, there and have to set a good target rounders. Of course there was football and cricket and swimming in the canals, jumping off the suspension bridge was a regular thing. Could you tell us about swimming in, in the canals Mr , what, what you used to do? Oh yeah, well that was where I learnt to swim in the canal on Road, er it's the bridge that goes over Lane, near, near . And there's a ledge on one side and I suppose the canal, it's still there, the canal is on only about what three or four yards wide. And what we used to do to begin with the canal used to dip in the middle, you know there was bike wheels and dead cats and everything in it, and it used to dip and, and there was a sludge and, and the barges used to go up and down with a horse pulling them, and in the middle there was a, so you couldn't bottom it in the middle, so when I learnt to swim I used to dive off this ledge and go under the water so far and I, I could reach the bottom when I got to the other side. And hang onto the ledge. And I gradually began to swim like that. Well we used to go in the dinner hour,from Road School. And then at nighttime we used to come down to the , if we, if we didn't go in Baths which was smashing, it was absolutely great, had two piers and a, a diving board, er and a deep end and a, and a shallow end for kids. It were lovely, in the , opposite the paddling pool now. And then the other favourite place was the suspension bridge. Cos there was a lot of sand and gravel just under the sus sus suspension bridge on the right hand side then, and it would go sl gradually sloping towards the middle without being too deep. You know only right in the middle and we used to jump off the Suspension Bridge regular, some used to dive, but I never did dive there. I used to jump off the middle of the Suspension Bridge. Now going, going back to your actual home environment Mr erm if there was always, could you actually describe how the house was built? My The make up of the house in Street. Well it we it was a terrace and, and one side of the ter the front doors were facing each other and there was twelve or thirteen houses on each side. The front doors facing each other. One side of Terrace had a little garden, a little postage stamp, no ever so small. Some used to keep them quite nice as well, but they were that tiny. Now the other side we didn't have one at all, we did, it were just the path down. Now the, round the backyard, used to go down the yard, and on the left hand side of the yard there was a, a, a, a toilet and a coal house. Everybody had a coal house, not many had coal in. Much coal in anyway . Some did, some had them full and some didn't and er there was a toilet and a a toilet and a coal house across the yard and then we used to go in the back door and there was a tiny little kitchen. I suppose about one and a half yards, perhaps not that, square and in the corner there was what they called, what we had the copper for boiling the clothes, make it with small coal and, and coal and wood and paper and boil the water and, and my mother used to do the washing there and we had a big old mangle with wooden rollers out in the back yard, that was always out in the back yard. And on the top of that we used to keep a sink-bath. Er not, not the long one, we didn't have a long one we had a rou oval one. And we used to keep that on top of the mangle. And then at the side of the copper there was a gas stove, and there was some shelves where we used to put silver spoons. And round to the left to the copper was a sink, a stone sink, just cold water. Then the kitchen, there were the living room was er about three by, three by three I should think, maybe three and a half by three. Now we had a coal fire, on one side there was the er hot water boiler and on the other side there was the oven. Er the copper, the, the hot water boiler we, we had a top on and, and you fill it up and then when the water was hot take it out. Well this all had coal and, and the, the chimneys want wanted sweeping and if you didn't sweep your chimney regular the soot used to come down onto this water into, into this er boiler. We were, were very often washing with er sooty water. And how many bedrooms did it have? Two. Now er if there was twelve of you Ah well not, there wasn't twelve to all together. Er because me sis me sister, two of me sisters went in service, er there was me, at this time, me, me brother, two sisters, no, two brothers, five, six, well I, I have, we have at one time me mother and father slept downstairs in the front room. Er me and me brother and two sisters slept in one bed, two at the bottom, two at the top. And then the other room was for the bigger, the elder ones. Er I think there was just Elsie at home then. Yeah, she's dead now. Cassie's older than Elsie. Ah but Cassie wasn't at home then. Oh. She was in service. So you know, we had back room for the, the elder and the youngsters into, to, well we were only kids you know then. Talking about twelve and er eleven or twelve, thirteen. Now erm did you say your father got a pension from the Army? A what? Did you say your father got a pension from the Army? Yeah, yeah. W was it a decent, well I mean was it a living wage Yeah I, I, I think, I think it was about by the time he, he'd had this allowance from you know going to College, I, I think it left him with about twenty seven bob a week, which wasn't bad you know. Because a, a, a labourer w was only earning thirty shilling a week. A porter on a railway was only on er I think it was twenty seven to thirty bob a week. A skilled man at at that time was earning one and tuppence an hour. For forty eight hours, and the labourer was on tenpence ha'p tenpence ha'penny an hour. So you know it wasn't a bad little pension was it? Er erm Smoky . could, could you tell us about the ways in which you as a child used to try and get some money for yourself and the family? What the boy the lads? Yeah. Oh yeah. Well there was a it was such a job at that time you couldn't get work and we, we used to genuinely look for work every day, but it was just a waste of time. So we had to go to pictures and we had to have a few or whatever. So one of the ways was, at that time the Co-op used to have a horse and cart coming round the streets, fruits and, and they used to sell rabbits. Well the, the lads used to skin the rabbits for the customers and throw the skin ov over the top of this cart, horse and cart. So we'd jump up an get one of these rabbit skins and then we'd take it back to wholesale fruiter in Street, and get fourpence for it. Well that would enable us to go to pic one of us to go to pictures and get a penny bag of sweets, or a pennyworth of fruits, or a pennyworth of stale buns. You see we were never hungry, although you know er times were bad and all that , you were never short of money either. Because another one was er we come down the houses in here, empty houses and in, in the summer they used to grow flowers, Marguerites, and we used to go in the backyard, we weren't supposed to, er and cut these flowers and make them into bunches and, and sell them for tuppence and thruppence a bunch. Nice big bunches you know and, and wonderful value for the people. And was there any other ways you used to, is there any other things you used to do? Er minding motors outside the Arms and the Bridge Hotel every night, maybe only get sixpence or sevenpence cos there wasn't that many cars about at the time. And, and we used to say to them, er can I mind your car sir? Aye, keep your eye in it my lad. And he'd come out maybe at ten o'clock, just gone and give you tuppence or some would give you a penny. Er and then another one was er bottles, we used to go round the back of er er and get a bottle or two bottles and get tuppence, penny on the pint and tuppence on the quart bottles. And take them back into the shop or send somebody else with them and er get our picture money that way. And then er we'd maybe get thruppence between us and let one go and pay to g to in the pictures and open the, lift the bar up, the emergency exit, and get in on our hands and knees behind the curtain. Was this quite a common thing for the lads in the to do things like this? Oh yes, yeah, we all did it. We all did it. They still do it actually. Do they? I don't know. I reckon our David's done it. There were different gangs you see, there was, there was er my, say our, our gang, we'd be er thirteen to fifteen. And then there was another gang fifteen to eighteen, and then another gang eighteen to twenty three. There was three different gangs. And were they based on areas as well, did you have like a different gang for different streets sort of thing? Oh yes, we used to meet at top of the yard. Er you see er no we were, we were all together. Sometimes all the lot of us would play there, marbles was another favourite game. I mean I, I, I, I've had as many as a thousand marbles in a bag. All for taking lawyers. Er if, if you, if you had, you had to dig a little hole in, in the, in the, by the wall on the, on the pavement like that to hold about sixty four marbles say, and you'd start off and say, give or give or take give or take as a lawyer, I used to have four marbles, and whoever was taken that was a lawyer of four marbles, I don't know why. And whoever took this four marb eight marbles had chucked them in this hole and if a even number come out it was mine, if a odd number came out then he'd take the eight. Then you'd have eighter, or sixteener, a thirty twoer until you'd got sixty four marbles you know and chuck them in this hole and if odd or even come out . Of course it was gambling. Martin they used to call it, pitch and toss, er till the policeman used to come round and used to, what you on with? Ah just sitting here. Did, was there a lot of gambling, did, er in the area? Well we did in, in this particular, in, in Terrace. Every weekend. Some men and, and some lads. We'd play pontoon and brag, ha'penny, farthings farthings. We've even played for fags. Now could you tell us about erm like you, the general health of the family, how was that taken care of? Fortunate I can't remember too much er ordinary er illnesses like er, we'd have a cold and, and you know er and that but no, I can't remember chicken pox and er Measles. scarlet fever and that sort of thing. There was a lot, lot had it er I don't know how they used to go on really er I know some somebody in a, a movement called Rachobites er what were the other one? I can't remember. Eh? I can't remember. There were some sort, some sort of er some like an insurance, now maybe only pay tuppence a tuppence Tuppence a week. Yeah. Er and that, and that cou would get you get you to a doctor then. Er but if a, a doctor's visit I think they used to pay five shilling if, if you sent for the doctor. And you'd got to pay five shillings. Wasn't it five bob? Yeah, it was a lot of money in those days. Mm. I can, could apart from, from that, this operation I never had any illnesses, not when I was a kid you know, not until later on. Now you've just been describing to us Mr about er your leisure activities etcetera and it was sort of confined to the etcetera. Did you have much trouble with the police, involvement with them etcetera? No er not, not really because the only time I, I wa I was in trouble with the police was I was riding a bike without a light. And this policeman, I were coming down Lane off over the hump back bridge. And he eh said, where do you live? I said, twenty four Terrace. And he took me home, er he gave me a good talking to, and tell me dad, cos me, I nearly, I got a good hiding, was going to get a good hiding from me dad, until this policeman says, don't worry, he says er, you won't hear anything about it. And I got a summons. I had to go to court, to pay five bob, cos I were riding a bike without a light. I went to the Hall and the old man paid out. Er now if you broke a window, this was the sort o how we used to get into trouble we should play maybe football or rounders or cricket or something and we'd break somebody's window. And we'd got to pay for it which was usually another five bob. Er Were the lads you used to knock around with, were any of them in serious trouble with the Yeah. police? Yeah. Could you tell us about them? Two, two of them. Well I'm not gonna mention their names but they're still alive, one's still in and he's doing, he's done very well for himself. Three of them went into a shop, in a baker's shop, why I wasn't with them that day I don't know cos we was always together, our four. But this day I wasn't there anyway and er they went into this shop in the , er and they came out, or one of them took a, a fruit cake. They're about I, I, I think the pri price was one and three. The three of them was involved. Well one got let off, one got a pro put on probation, for three years, and the other one got sent away to an approved school. And that one that got sent away he, he learnt a certain job which he's done in ever since and he's done very well at it. Were they picked on by the police, the people in the , cos that seems a pretty severe sentence. Well no the, the owner, the baker reported them to the police. But we knew the police and the police knew us. You know they di they knew us by name. I mean we were to come over Bridge here and there was a police station on Bridge at the time, police, you know opposite the T B I, and the sergeant used to stand there and he used to wait for us coming home. We had, we'd go to Park, be sent out of there by the keeper because we co we weren't supposed to be in he said . And the girls used to say, these bri these lads are here again, and er, well he sent us out and when we'd come back we'd pass this sergeant and at, he'd, he'd talk to u where you been, what you been up to? I'd say, nothing, we've just been up there , and he'd smack us across the chops with the er gloves, and say, go on, and don't let me see you here again. You know . But wasn't it somewhat severe to, to get you know Wasn't it what? Wasn't it a bit severe to be put into er a detention centre for, for just nicking a cake? One and thruppenny fruit er fruit cake, yeah. Was that quite normal at the time? Er well it er it was normal because it was the only time I, I've heard it happen in Street anyway but there were, there was kids being sent away all the time to borstal and er for doing wrong things. And was the area itself er with the adults concerned, were the police often involved with them? No it, it wasn't so bad really. Er It was a bit rough, it wasn't It was rough but you know it, it w it was petty things that we was in trouble for, not, nothing sin I mean we would never think of mugging anybody or vandalizing things for the sake of vandalizing. Er we, we'd tie two doors together which, and then knock on them both,and then run like hell . Er firework night now I we would get bangers, put them, get a dustbin lid and, and put the banger under the dustbin lid and the dustbin lid used to go up because they were big bangers then. But apart from that I mean we w I never knew any of our lot to put one through a letter box or anything like that, you know. We was all into mischief but it was never anything wrong, you know what I mean? Er I, I like bonfire night we'd, we'd maybe start collecting bonfire rubbish round about the end of August. We'd go to all the shops along our and there was some shops, with bags hoping to get something else besides rubbish. And then stored it in somebody's coal house. And at that time nearly everybody had a bed with a mattress made of straw, and on top of this mattress, straw mattress they used to have what they call a tick, flock, flock tick. Well every bonfire night it was the time for most people to get rid of the fleas and the mattresses and er and bonfire night we used to come just right. Well I know in one terrace alone in Street, Street used to have three big bonfires in this two hundred yards and I've known one terrace, Terrace to have as many as twenty mattresses you know piled on the street ready for, and the big lad the bigger lads used to, to get the props get somebody's prop and stoke the fire up and put the mattresses on. And then you'd got the fleas and, if you hadn't got fleas at home you certainly would have them after bonfire night . Mr could, could you tell us was, was there a pawnbrokers near you? Yes. Now there was er , he had two shops on Street. He had one er just on Street there and the other one was near Street. And there was also another one a little bit further on. There were three on Street between Bridge and Station. About that time everybody had indigo suit, you know what indigo blue is don't you? Well this, this indigo suit whether it was brown, blue, or black, it was still indigo. Cos it was indigo on Monday as out it go on Saturday, if you were lucky . Er everybody or nearly everybody used to go to the pawnshop. But nobody wanted other people to know about it,be embarrassed. We went, I went regular. And so did a good many people who I, I thought would never go. Cos I used to see them there. You see, they , they can't deny it . But I, my mother used to send me and er with my father's suit and er she used to say er, now you're going t to pawnshop, take your dad's suit. I says, aye, aye. And I used to get a penny or tuppence sometimes to take it in. And then on a Saturday she'd say,go fetch your dad's suit. I said, well, I said, I'm, I'm someone had seen me last week. Cos it instead of it wasn't wrapped up you see, it was wrapped up in a cloth. Well if you've got a cloth er parcel with, with, wrapped in cloth you know everybody knew where you were going and I didn't like people to know I was going to, been to the pawnshop. So we started another thing then the, if you paid fourpence you, you could have your suit wrapped up and it were new paper with string. And it looked as though you'd bought something rather than been to the pawnshop. I used to say, well let me have a fourpenny wrapper and then I, I, and fourpence was a lot of money then. So anyway I used to get this fourpenny wrapper and er walk down Street. And everybo still everybody knew, it didn't matter . Was, was everybody embarrassed about going to the pawnbrokers or didn't didn't some people quite a lot. It was very useful for people, because it was the only way they could get the bit of money on a Monday. I mean they used to take things er the wedding ring, the jewellery if they'd got any, towels, sheets, er suits, shoes, er didn't didn't want to sell them, didn't want to get rid of them, they just wanted to borrow money on those, and he used to charge you interest and ticket money when you took it in, and then you'd got to pay interest when you took it out as well so it was, they were on a good thing. Yeah. And then people used to er maybe wedding rings or sovereign used to pawn that and then they used to either they couldn't afford to get it out, to, to redeem it so er the pawnbroker would sell it then, after a time. They was on making a good living and still do I think. They're coming back again pawnshops aren't they? And and was it the suit that was the thing you always used to pawn? Ooh my dad's suit was definitely the thing every week. I don't know why he brought it out on, on the weekend for it . There's another story about me dad that most of used to borrow we had moneylenders in, in the streets, there was quite a few moneylenders in the . And they used to charge, maybe lend you half a crown, not a pawnshop but your ordinary women, used to lend you half a crown and maybe charge you sixpence for it or something like that you see. And my father s he er he used to go in the Plum Tree and one of the landlords there he'd say er, Tom lend us a quid. And he used to lend me dad a pound and he always used to give him it back on a Wednesday, on his pension day. And then borrow it again on a Friday or a Saturday and this went on for so long er he'd eventually Tom said, by the way Jack, he said, whose pound note, whose pound is this? So he said, why? He said I don't know whether it's mine or whether it's your bugger. He said, I tell you what, he said, you keep it we we we'll call it straight. So I don't know whose pound it was. Did these people who used to lend money get a bit heavy if they weren't repaid? What did they used to do? If they didn't get paid, well, er there wasn't official moneylenders so they couldn't er they couldn't sue you I'd think. They weren't supposed to do it anyway, it was illegal. No i er I don't know people didn't go out of their depth I don't think, they, it was half a crown or five bob and, and they used to pay, maybe pay it back in bits and bobs. And then the woman that would lend them money'd say, well you're not having any more, so you'd got to try and find somebody else who'd lend you money. But But you've never heard of people getting beat up Oh no, no, no. cos they hadn't paid or anything. No, no. Er, one from Elizabeth and one from Ron . One from Ron and one from Elizabeth. I've got erm, a letter from Ron in addition to his apologies. Right and you'll be reading that other report will ya?. Yeah,. Right. Er, minutes of the last meeting, can we take them as read? yes Thank you Matters arising from that meeting which took place on the thirty first July. Many of the matters arising will come up in my report of correspondence. Mm, Mm You might like to, when you come around to it Lilly, say that was on T V, that T V and benefits the er, our campaign. When's that? We have a few days to go to that looking into it now, so if, you know. Oh, soon . Are they? Oh. Yeah, we are doing some good. Mm. You know the, coming home to the, it's all coming home to roost. On page one Harlow radio, I have written to them and erm with the nomination of Pauline and she has already been communicated with Have you had the eh chair, have you had any reports on the bus company regarding the hand rails? None what's so ever . Safety rails, none what's so ever no. . That's typical, a really smoothy eh? I take it you've all read your minutes? Yes. Are there any further matters arising before we pass onto the next item on the agenda? Right, could we have correspondence please secretary. Er do you want me to stand or can you hear alright?. No, no, I think they can hear alright . It's necessary for you to stand . Erm, the first one is a letter from Ron , he, he's in Milton Keynes with his family at the moment, on holiday, and he will be missing this meeting action tomorrow and unfortunately the September Executive, erm, he's reported on the erm market stall which I'll come to a bit later, I ask you for details about that and for the enclose with it erm, a statement issued by the association nationally on pensioner's and the Poll Tax. This is er a condemnation of the jailing and threat of jailing of pensioner's for pay failing to pay the Poll Tax. The Government has admitted that forcing the poorest of pensioner's who are on Income Support to pay twenty per cent of the proposed Council Tax would be Tax, would be wrong. It cannot therefore now justify that it was right to cause those same pensioner's to pay twenty per cent of the Poll Tax. The association cause for the ending of criminalisa criminalisation, the word, of pensioner's, who's only fault is their poverty, it is confident that the British people will support this cause and that their protest will be, speedily bring to an end a situation which is the shame of our Country, that's signed by the President of the British Pensioner's and Fred the Secretary. That's issued by the General Purposes Committee. The second, does anyone want to say any about that? it's just that they probably sent it to the appropriate people. There's another item of news, which erm, er Ron only got on the sixteenth August and it's about the pre-congress pensioner's march and rally, now the congress is held in Glasgow, so I think we weren't going to that one anyway, but it just giving details of erm the arrangements for the pensioner's march which we usually have, we usually attend if it's in the South anywhere, but that's just for information. The second item of erm correspondence is from Bromley's Bromley's Social Services, if you remember, we've got this on going campaign on home helps and along side that we've got erm, we did hear of t his home shopping erm campaign that Bromley do, apparently quite successfully, the MP has mentioned that, so I thought I'd get some details of that erm, it gives the whole procedure for, for the er shopping and the delivery and the Social Services pay out for it, they pay a charge, erm if you'd like this copied, I could get copies for the next meeting, but meanwhile I'd recommend that erm we take it up with Benefits Action tomorrow on the campaign. Do, do we agree with that? I agree with that, yes. It's just a general procedure of er ordering from, it's, it's limited to Asda and erm the general helpful way. They haven't said much about the cost, anything about the cost, and they haven't said whether, well they wouldn't would they?,, whether anyone was dissatisfied, cos I understand from my family that they have been met you know they have been raised in the press, but it's not a hundred per cent. The erm, second is minutes from Health Action, as you know, a lot of our members are concerned of Health Action, and they next meeting will be on the thirtieth September, with the Chief Execu Executive Kath Kathy , er, who will be speaking. Now with regard to that I'd rather feel that were gonna be called on before then, because of the rumours about our own hospital. What about?. Which are quite frightening about opting out, erm some of you will remember that we'd attended Welwyn Garden City on a picket a month ago, and erm as a result of campaigning there, within the hospital, with the press and the Council, they have been turned down so they are not being allowed to opt out. I also understand that Basildon has erm got the same fate, so you know, it looks as if were in for a campaign there. Perhaps Pauline you've got some news on that? Yes, erm if I could here, I did want to add some cos obviously I think everybody was taken by surprised. Come to the front Pauline. Yeah, we'd, we'd like to hear about it cos were all very worried, huh. Well on the issue of what's happening in the er Health Authority here, it's a very much erm a surprise to everybody because those of us who were at the last meeting that we had,only a couple of months ago, to quite categorically saying that, she, that she was just not interested in the . And apparently her view now is that because the Government ha have said, anybody who is interested in becoming a in nineteen ninety three, must register an interest on sixteenth this year, which is really, that's, you know, there legislating for what they haven't got any power in nineteen ninety three . Can't rely on that, can't rely on it . They've only been elected to nineteen ninety two, so they're, they're really, what there doing there forcing people to take some action now, because at Kathy says, she's afraid of being left out, if there should be a, another Tory Government, so a lot of people are in the same position, they will be putting in eh, I think they just call it best of interest, not a proper application, but then if the whole lot, hundreds of us come along, which is quite likely they will, the Government will say well this proves that everybody wants to become you see, so it's rather clever move, erm, as, as far as I'm concerned, what's happening with that she is eh here within the hospital, the consultant's and the worker's in the hospital. Also far as I know, there is no intention of discussion it with members of the public or patient's or union or anything like that. So as a result to that, there, there erm, there is going to be a public meeting on the tenth September, which is actually organised by the Labour party, erm, but obviously the who thing very worried about the attendance at that, erm the, have, had to organise it very quickly because he wants to get it in before the sixteenth, we'll still trying to get erm a National speaker, I'm hoping that Julie from the er, eh National Help Federation will be able to come, but she's on holiday till Monday erm, I don't. will go ahead whether we have a National speaker or not? I did wonder whether we ought to call a, a, a, sort of emergency meeting of Harlow Health Action, but I was away myself until last few days, so it's difficult to do that, so what we've are , I've agreed with Dave , the secretary, we've produced a leaflet, which is based on one of the Federations leaflet, it gives the reason to be against opting out. We just have used a simplified version of that. The one the Federation produced is very good, but a lot of reading in it, so, we wanted one we could hand out to people and the the intention is that we, we go on the market next week Thursday and Friday to hand out that leaflet, also to advertise the meeting on the tenth, erm, so that really is as far, and obviously the meetings that, that Lilly just said that Kathy 's coming, that would be an opportunity to erm you know, discuss it further with her. If they do go ahead and put the application in, which I think they will, then, that's the start of the process, so that's a good time when we will need to really step up the campaign and we will get National speaker's to meetings, we will get probably a petition, we will go round the area like we did over the er non funding, but we had to do something quickly, to, to make it clear, you know, we don't want this to go ahead. Erm, hopefully we'll have the same effect that 'em they had in Basildon and erm. Welwyn. Welwyn . Welwyn , er because that really is a good example. I'm actually also hoping to get, someone who was erm concerned at the campaign to come to the meeting, cos I think it would be very useful to have someone who's been through it and to say how, how they tackled it, so I think it should an interesting meeting, hopefully we'll get a few, you know interesting people to come along and we can spend from that meeting campaign. Erm, there's also, I just wanted to say a bit about the ambulance er. What, what date next week are they ? It's the Thursday and Friday, that's the fifth and sixth, fifth and sixth? Er, yes, that's right. Between ten and two. Ah, that's, that's also, that's also the day the fifth is we, we will be at eh Basildon. Yeah. Ah. Well not all of us. Not all of us. Only five of us. But eh. Right, well, we'll have to, but you know if people have to let me know if they can turn up then. Sixth, yes, I can come on the Friday. Sixth is the Friday. Yeah, well I mean I think we need to get as many as possible. Yeah. To turn up, who are not going to Basildon. What car they going in? Yes, well eh. Ten till two, usual? Ten till two, yes. Thursday and Friday. Thursday and Friday that's right. What time is it? Ten till two. The public meeting? The public meeting is on the tenth at, here, the Town Hall at eight o'clock . Town Hall , eight o'clock at night? Eight o'clock, yes. We've already got that haven't we?, we've already been told that haven't we? Well I . Erm, if I. Do you, do you want me Health Action Banner for that? cos I've got it at home. Ooh, yeah. The . I think the more things that . Only as we've lost the last one , I'm hanging on to, it's hanging in my wardrobe, I'm not making a third one Your hanging onto it Yeah. No. Erm, just if I could say about the , there's something next week also about the ambulance. The erm, we only just, this week discovered that the Regional Health Authority are going to consider the ambulance proposal next Wednesday. Ah, yeah. Were hoping to get a mini bus, I don't think we ought take a bus because we were very badly treated when we did that, we don't to allow ourselves open to that again, but I have written to say were hoping to get enough people to take a mini bus. If, in the mornings you remember, we, we started to leave, leave quite early about eight o'clock, cos the other bus were late. So if anyone's interested in going on that,get in touch with me or Dave , we'll erm, say we don't need to many but I think we can take a few and we will take our petition with us on that one, the animal petition. When is that one Pauline? That's next Wednesday, were get the . Pauline. Yeah. They, they will have to pick us up I'm afraid, cos our pass is not valued till nine o'clock. Six o'clock, I mean it won't be very many people who's been invited so we can probably arrange that. Yeah. Erm, but at the moment were still looking for a driver. And that's next Wednesday? That's next Wednesday, if we don't get enough we'll probably just take a car, but, but anyway, there's going to be a lot going on actually on this. Could we indicate that if they can go . Yeah , anybody interested in, what, on, on Wednesday? About Thursday. Yeah, there's London. Eight o'clock in the morning. eight o'clock in the morning. Yeah. Where's it go? Going to London, to Regional Health Authority to attend present petition and to see what they do about the animals petition. If in fact where they decide whether to pass it on the . . Right, there's, one, two, three, four, five, six . And the other half, you know . Well actually that maybe enough because if get say Terry from Waltham Abbey That's the misses . and were hoping to get somebody from Bishop's Stortford I think it's important to have a, and I'm also going to ask Bob , the ambulance driver if he's free to come, I think we can use the . So I think that cover so if those people can. What . Well I think we can arrange to pick you up as we go at that time, you'll of eh, because I know that bus passes don't cover that. Dave driving is he? Well the problem is he has to say he has a licence for you, he hasn't so, it's possible that Terry will be. Ah , oh Terry, I see. Yeah, we'll still getting, trying to get in touch with him, but we'll find a driver one way or another. There's one from The Stow area. Yes, yes you, you can see him tomorrow that's a good idea those who can, can okay. Right. Filling up a blank week. Thank you Pauline, very, that er very good report on the Health Service. The next item of correspondence is just the minutes of benefits action and I, I think you'll mostly up to date on those, on that. At the last meeting erm Sue gave a drafted, an open letter to Jerry Hayes. This is mainly dealing with the Social Fund which as you know, is erm,go undergoing changes, which means er loss of money and breaking up the fundings to twelve monthly amounts, which is creating great difficulties. If you apply to the fund at the beginning of the month you'll likely to get something, but hard luck if you apply later on in the month, but that she's taken up as an open letter to Jerry Hayes, but so far I haven't seen it in the press. Erm the budget increase is for Social Fund, for years, eighty seven and eight eight was two ninety five thousand, one hundred and ninety, under the new system in the first year it went down to fifty seven thousand one oh seven. As you know because of the activities of benefit's action over a couple of years, Social Fund in Harlow was quite good because we urged people to apply and Social Fund was then based on the year before's applications, but this doesn't apply now. Home help's we like, were meeting tomorrow and were hoping that Renee will come along and eh update us on things so that we can campaign again starting in October. Erm, mm excuse me. Now out, outside corres that's all the correspondence. Outside correspondence erm, the chairman and Archie have dealt with er erm, complaint from a member er I don't know the outcome of it, but it's a lady that they have seen. I have another query on the world women women's erm work from Margaret who isn't here I don't think this afternoon, and that was about erm you know the female test and the time taken for the results to come through. Well I, I've been on to world wom women's committee and they assure me that they, the hospital says these tests should come through in a week, at the most three week's, but you can phone them, so that certainly has improved, there doesn't seem to be a back log. We have another in erm on Thompson's Directory, we said we were asked if we would like a mention there, and that has been put in hand, with at the moment the Chairman's name and address and telephone number, but when we get our office I've no doubt we can change that because we'll have a rota for the office and probably just morning hours and that can go in another copy. Now apart from that, we had a phone call from Mrs who's here at the moment and she'll probably, and I'll tell you what I've got on that. We had a phone call erm a year or two ago Mrs did a lot of work on this with petition's and so on about the costs of pensioner's for animal treatment, because the P D S A no longer operates in Harlow and the nearest one I think is Edmonton, which makes it impossible. At the time we took up the, the secretary took took up the matter and I got him to send us er a copy of the reply, and it, it appears that, as you know it's all voluntary and, and it relies charity for individuals, but I noticed, I only got this from Ron yesterday, paragraph here says, where the community demonstrates it's active support for such adventure, then there is an increase likelihood of the establish of a service, although it has to be said that there already exists a waiting list of communities eager to re receive P D S A support. Now I think, er and I'm sure that Mrs will, I've I've got other information as well, that we could, I, I, I'd like to recommend that we had an on going petition which could be in Welfare Rights, the Town Hall, The Libraries, but there's no, I don't think there's an opposition to such a thing, whereby we ask for a P D S A clinic in Harlow, I'm sure there's room round where they were sit, sited before, and I don't know, you know, I'd like to know what Mrs 's thinks, also I've got information er, a, following lots of phone calls erm there is an organisation called The Blue Cross, they have a clinic in Victoria and they're, they have a head office in Oxford and they will help if they know the name of the vet and have the invoice and I'm afraid it's tested, but they will help pensioner's and other low paid people to meet there bill's, so that's another outcome, while were doing the petition. What do you think of that?. Bitchy, bitchy, bitchy . Beryl are you? Is she here? Is Mrs in the audience today. Yeah. Yeah. Ah, like, like to see who you are Mrs I see, thank you.. Have you got, have you got anything, you know, think we can take it further than that? Do you think we can take it further? Or shall, what do you think of haven't it petitioned? Well , I, I heard from Inspector yesterday. Who? Inspector . Yeah, Inspector. I phoned him yesterday, and er, I ask him whether it was right that er what I suspected, that the er vets, the private vets, there with a union, you will not get the R S P C A, they work on there on behalf. They beg you . They have to erm, first of all ask er R S P C A funding it, which is very much against anyway because I, I hate being humiliated by the this way. So if it's a P D S A clinic you wouldn't have to do that you can just give er . No you just contribute mm . Erm, you've got that to tend with and erm on top of that erm, you can't ware of if you've got a pass yes, I, you've then have to er, get, you know, whether though it'll be going to a and at the moment there suppose to be very, very low so they can't do that any more and then you'll have to, the vet will then do the treatment for the animal, but again you don't get the vet you'll only get the training vet's to do the job and then they reclaim from the R S P C A, so it, no way that they haven't got any funds. Oh, see, so that they get there full . Well there doing this for fund, of course funding for everything even church . . Going down, if not stop for the thing. But what, what do you think about erm demanding er erm a P D S A place in Harlow? Well, I, I, I have asked for that, I've written to the P D S A, I've written to the . Well, we have too, yes. You have also? When we, when we first took it up Beryl we did that . That's right , I've, I've been through over the year's I've been doing this and they say, whether it's because they know if the background at the er vets, the private vets there, you know I don't know, but the information I get from them, that there'd a, there not prepared to over . Well this, this was a letter of the, granted it was eighty nine, but I mean this paragraph just said, you know, if we, does say that, you know, if we established a, a demand, and I don't see why we shouldn't have a bash at. Well then I have the inspector . I mean, if we have a petition like they do on the counter in Welfare Rights in the Town Hall, I don't think there be any opposition to that and the Libraries for the setting up of a P D S A branch, you know, I don't see why, why we shouldn't give it a try . There is one at the Wych Elm still open . Pardon. That R S P C A at Wych Elm. At Wych Elm.. I, I asked the inspector yesterday. Yeah, only. Is, is it possible that we could have a, a vet, a R S P C A vet and take, uses that hut even two days a week would be a great help to the pensioners. But,then. And all he said, the whole of . Mm, Mm. I was sep separate and apart from that, they would have to have a operating room and a dispensary there, you see that's what they would have to have, I mean, if there gonna have P D S A premises, this is what you've got to have, cos very often the animal has to be put under and all sorts of things, you know what I mean, it wouldn't be just an office with say like a physician and a tenants, it would be a case of a, a surgery and things in that nature which would be required by, er quite a number of animals. Mm, that . So your talking about a big space, your not talking about a small office. That's what we've got to take into consideration. Mm. Yeah. Well anyway, whatever I I tried to get him to erm, cos I've written again to the newspaper, I've tried to get him to confess that, that the unions are the biggest because erm, even then I said to tell him well supposing that we could get, I said, erm you know the money to support you, I said just supposingly I said would be private vet , and he said what you dare say they would have to have there . When there, when you say a union, what do you mean a union in a true sense of the word, or do you mean an organisation, which is something va vastly different because they way your, they way your saying this to me, this doesn't sound like a union at all. This, this sounds very much like some, er organisation based on the establishment to me that's what it sounds like which eh, were one would expect. Sorry, the only one I eh, I eh got this idea was when I first took this up I went into the hut in the town, and I picked up the booklets, you know that they have on the counter, and in one of these booklets it had that the vet's were now I don't know what I'm, I'm very lost for everything like this, but they've kept and therefore if your animal needed, your pet needed treatment it would be done by the private vet's and eh,mon the money would be re would be reclaimed by the vet from the R S P C A, and I think that gave to erm . Well, what I think I shall do now is I think I should take this a little further about this union business, I think I should get in touch with Dave , the Editor of the T U C to find out what the exact position of these, this so called union is because it doesn't sound like a union to me, it sounds, it sounds like an . .. It sounds like an association.. He would be able to find, they would be able to find out what they are.. I'm talking about the unions. I mean the resources then. Yeah, the resource teller. . Yeah, he would be able to find out what type of union this is, or whether it's some establishment association, we try quite frankly, I, I, I think it is. From the way this lady spoke it seems to me like, like a that, that sort of er organisation, from the establishment. Another things is . We'll have to make of this because we can't keep. . Just say we go ahead with the decision. Yeah, yeah. Now that I had to get it to the by taxi and she had seven stitches put in the leg and, I had to leave her there for six hours, well then it was a taxi back home, I couldn't now I am on income support, but that cost me fifty four pound, ninety five and I am paying that. Mm, well look, what I'm going to say to you know is, time marches on, that, do you agree that we go ahead with what Lillian's suggesting? That we try out a petition throughout all the centre's in the town. Yeah. Yes. All those in agreement raise. Right, carried, so that's what we'll do, okay. Erm, erm, do, do you have, have you got erm, Beryl have you got the Blue Cross address in Oxford? Yes, I've got plenty . Okay, well if you've got it, that's alright, I'll see you afterwards . After, after the meeting . See her after the meeting, next business. Erm, can I go on now, to erm. Oh wait, I've got a, you'll pull yourself a fair enough . . Erm. We'll move it, start weekend, speed it up a little. Erm, due erm there's also as you know, we've, we've had the chartered petition on the market and we are going on with that. The, it was officially launched in London yesterday at Ken's House, unfortunately neither of the two officer's could go, it was rather short notice, but it has been officially launched now as a national thing. Erm, there's a question of a rally in Central Hall, now in order to organise this pensioner's rally there short of funds, erm, I think the executive will be discussing this and as, as before we did give them quite a considerable donating, because it costs a thousand pounds to hire the centre hall and we do want to erm take part in a very big rally, like the last one was. Erm, erm, apart from the meeting last week the last, last month, er one of our mem one of our members noticed that erm we hadn't got a delegate to age concern and she volunteered, that's a Mrs would you like to okay that cos the Chairman and I speaking to her thought well this was a good idea and I have forwarded her name to age concern who've contact her. Is that all right? Yes. Erm, we, we couldn't nominate anyone at the A G M, no one was willing to do it. Erm, oh god, the next item is the Essex Region and erm that was just a report from Norfolk on the success of it. Erm, from the E C were, we've decided to hold the usual Christmas social and Peggy and myself will organise as before with the usual conscripts, you know, the usual team of workers, volunteers I mean. That's right. Erm unfortunately we can only have this room not the canteen this year . . I will be writing to the normal firms as usual, to get donations for the raffle, er now the other thing I've got to report from is the stall, no before that the E C discussed applications by other organisations, now Sheffield and erm many other areas produce there own excellent publications, so I, I wrote of to Greater London Pensioner to Redbridge, to Senior Citizens in Sheffield, Anglian Pensioners, Grey Power and erm I, I've sent letter's to them and already had some copies back from Sheffield. Whilst on the market stall I had a Liverpool pensioner who hadn't seen a Liverpool organisation so when I got home I sent to her a notice of the huge rally there going to hold in September, in Liverpool with a couple of Bishop's and big national speakers, I sent that to her and also contacted a Liverpool pensioner secretary to get in touch with her, and we've also written to erm, that's the rally, erm, we've also, I've also written to Jim from Cumberland, if you remember er his down our rally, so we should have some, we decided to buy twelve copies of each publication they produce and one when we get our office will be available there . On file , on file. Erm, dum, dum, the market stall as you know, we didn't have it in the market, we had it on the thank goodness because we parked it in the shade, erm during that period we got five hundred and thirty two signatures, with three or four more of you it could of been a thousand, erm we also got fourteen pounds, seventeen in donations, all completely unasked for cos as you know, we don't take money. Erm so two pounds of that went with sale with the sale of the journal and so we can say we had twelve pounds unsolicited donations, erm as Peggy would back me up if she was here, saying that any time you ask someone to sign the flood gates open with what they thought about the position of pensioners, in fact we've probably got a lot more signatures if they hadn't, but erm, we did pick up, we, I picked up the news about Welwyn Garden City's cost of and things like that not going through and erm , erm, now, our month our monthly, our monthly stall will not be on the third third Thursday this year, it will be on the fourth to co-inside with the week were celebrating pensioner's week, which is a week behind National. Erm that means we have a stall on Tuesday the twenty fourth, Wednesday we've got our meeting here with the speaker about, were having Mike speaking on Czechoslovakian now and he'll be telling us his experiences over there and his had a long association with Czechoslovakia and Harlow and Thursday were having a market stall with a jazz band and Norman could probably tell us more about that. Do you want to go ahead with the Tuesday stall? A, the Tuesday stall was a bit debatable at the moment because what has happened is, I heard from the er from Mr Stuart that he, he thought that er could assist us and that I should go over there and see them. I did do that along with Ron and er they were speaking in terms of er a conjurer at under a pound a time and thing of that nature which should then come to a the pensioner's category at Poole, so I took it back to Stuart and he said oh see what I can do Norman, and at the present moment it rests there because I haven't been able to contact Stuart at the moment owed to the holiday, but I shall be contacting him and hopefully we will also be doing two days, which is the Tuesday and the Thursday, also what they, er, he's, he's promised to do is to come half way with the cost of the jazz band, which is a great help. Er, so you can say that er Mr is a friend of pensioner's, he said, he said he would be prepared to, what I, I, I approached him and said er, what about Harlow Caring Council, are they prepared to assist the pensioners in any way or do they wish to join in on this, oh yes he said, of course Norman he said, how much are you paying er Ron I said well his asking forty pound for the, for the morning, oh he said I'll go half way with that, then he came out and said to me, pull me up afterwards and ask me to go to leisure services about the Tuesday, and so I'm still following that up and hopefully we will have two days on pensioner's week, because you want to have as much impact as possible and in a few moments, when I nearly finished here, I shall be reading you something where you'll see that it is important that we make an impact on the people of Harlow. Erm one of. It is the twenty fourth of September isn't it? Yes, twenty fourth. Well, it'll, it'll be the er, the twenty fourth and the twenty sixth. With our meeting in between. With our meeting in between. Erm, one of the things we had on the stall is erm this erm application form for N H S charges, now many people including probably people here don't know that erm, you don't have to be on supplementary to get help and Ann knows actually, er if your getting any rent or rate rebate and you fill this in, you'll get some help, in some cases quite considerable help, and I suggested that we had some of these on our store room, got some from Welfare Rights, and they went like hot cakes, because most people didn't know about this, so following that we shall have, we shall keep these on our stall and I've more or less suggested that Lisa on Age Concern in the Leah Manning should have them there because she's constantly getting enquiries on that, so she is going to do that. Erm so it's, it has been very useful. On news mobility, I had a copy of that last month and I've ordered twenty on each publication. Erm during the executive erm Mary raised a point from the joint planning team about the erm charter and the remarks made by Dr. on that, would you like to say something on that Mary? because we want to take some action. I to each other. I, I would like the association to write to this is from the . Members agree that proposal continue on in the ideal although it was commendable to set high standards. Dr. said it was a matter of trying to make a correct differential between right and whatever that means, and that the charter might tend to induce our views as defenders, instead of. That's right. That's right. Dr. our would like to know what other . I like a reply .. Pensioner's charter. I gave it, I gave it too them . . Yeah, I think, I think erm, what about this reply? Yeah, we'll get . on the twenty sixth of this month. Twenty sixth of this month. If you could definitely . Twenty sixth of August? No, sorry about that September. September. It's the last Friday in er September. The last Friday. Er, that's the twenty seventh, Friday. Well can. Pardon. Can erm, do you think Mary we can get together on reply on this? I do hope so, idea's terrific on it. Yeah, I think so. I, I don't think I could do it,I'm a . Well how about waiting until . I didn't mean for you to do it, but erm . Don't leave it too long Norman. Well yeah, I mean, your in the second week aren't ya? And you've got plenty of time, you've got a fortnight elapse between the two, we can come up with ideas, like the idea of that? Well I think the ideas should come from the members, well what do they think about it? I think it's great. Would you? I, I . If it's got to come to the members, it's gotta come today. Well I've a, you know, what I've said. I've, I'll get Dr. remarks in the minutes, there actually stated in the minutes.. Yeah, well, then we can, we can add an organisation er state where the charter, that it was launched yesterday, nationally and the people who were there at there launch, which I think. Yes, it . Yeah, I think, I haven't got details of that, but I think erm Ron has and also the fact that we've taken remarks and. Yeah, very much so. I mean, what's this small in the Daily Mail erm yesterday? you know, it makes it . I read it, yeah. . Oh yeah, that's right, can I read something out now then? Yeah, yeah, well. Now. Can we finish this off? Right, yeah, you, finish, finish of Lilly. I like to independence with economics, you don't have your independence without economic independence. That's right. That's what my . That's right, year .. I . There are people who have a good pension when there in retirement, don't there department, I'm the only one that's elected. Mm. I'm elected from the in West Essex. You nominated me. Yeah. And elected by I represent all the bodies in West Sussex. Oh anyway, the charter has found it's way into the Daily Mail, Ann brought a small cutting and erm. . Mm.. Yeah.. Yeah. And what about this bit about. Oh. If between right and . She's got to .. Ah? That's taken sarcasm to me. Sounds like . When, when a we were discussing it with said to me oh you don't believe in , he meant ah and I . You don't get any er help at all. Right, have you finished now? . Can we go ahead, or not? Can we go ahead. Well it's up to you. Right. What'll you suggest? . I've had a.. But we do, we were in the . Oh Jesus Christ. We've still got some more. Oh go on then. Two more things. Erm. But keep me out of it. Erm, the last thing is, no, we, I don't want to stop the Chairman cos he's got something else as well. Erm Mary indicated at the last executive that she wants to retire from C H C and she would like Pauline to take her place, have you an nomina, a nominee from here? Yes, this er nominating me, but again I . So who, who do we write to, to change erm. Secretary. Secretary of whom? I'm . So we write to the Secretary of C H C. . Mrs okay. And did people agree with that nomination. I've done it for seven years. Pauline.. I think it'll be good for Pauline she gets a lot of information. I, I think it would be a very good for Pauline to go on. Yeah. And while were doing that, we should thank Mary for her seven years stint that she's done on . Yeah. We did ask Dorothy to do it after I did it for four years, but she wasn't keen and I had to go on . Right. And that's all I've got to report which has been quite a busy month. I've had a letter from our Ken He writes, pensioners are now, are growing vi vital contingency including many active gift enable people with other use, there often made to feel unwanted, there commonly neglected and there needs are seldom frequently met. At last that is being fixed. So I won't go through the rest of it, it's a long and er it's just brought us on the same sort of thing, but what it proves is that we are getting somewhere and that is what I thought was rather important news, which I want to do. Yeah. To, to Angie you know, I mean a, were alright, we've got plenty of local issues, but I mean when we think of the, the big issues, these are the big issues that need to be looked into. Right madam secretary. That's all. That's all from you so can we have the financial report and you will switch off sir. Are we ready, have we finished tea? yes Have we been the cups, if so. Our speaker for this afternoon is a lady who I very much respect her , that's Ms, Mrs, or Miss Chris from the local unit.. Chris. Thank you, thank you Norman. Erm I do recognise some faces, I know some of you recognise me and eh cos we've done quite a lot of things together, but this afternoon what I'm going to tell you about is how I fit in with Council,I don't think any of you know that or know what the Local Government Unit is. Erm, so, I'm gonna start off by talking about the Local Government Unit, where it fits in the Council organisation. Were, we're not attached to any sort of department, like housing or leisure, were actually in the organisation, were in the general management department and were not alone erm, the planning er originally the general manager's department and the winners and equality unit are in that department as well and the general manager has his own erm policy, officer and secretarian, so were in the general manager's department and in other Council's that would be known as the Chief Executive Department. Other Council's like Harlow do have central policy units which is what we would be described as, because people recognition that it's important that you need to have people who are outside departments looking at the organisation as a whole, what it's doing, where it's going, how it's being influenced by external organisation's, i.e. what the Health Service are doing locally, or what the Government's doing more significantly, erm, I think you need people looking around to see how the Council's affected and what, what were doing in and taking an overall view and responding in that way and that's the kind of thing that we do and that's why were here. Erm, I understand that erm somebody from the unit has had talked to your group before, but it's just as well to come and talk to you again because we've changed the Local Government Unit, not the same erm, unit that it was when we were first introduced,we've grown basically . We've grown and erm brought other people, integrated other people in in with us. The person that is, is head of our unit is, is Carol and she's known as Principal Policy Co-Ordinator and she report's directly to the General Manager Der Erm, then we have three teams within the Local Government Unit, we have a Policy Team and I'm the team leader for the Policy Team and I'll talk about, I'll talk about our work later, but it's just to explain who we are. Then there's the Neighbourhood Development Team and that team is principally working on implementing the Council's decentralization and democratisation policy, opening local officer's, setting area committee's, some of, you maybe familiar, erm with that initiative I'm sure you are. That team deals principally with that and then there's the Community Development Team headed by John who worked with particular groups in the town. Now the reason why we've come together and this has been a recent change and it's been this year, erm is because there are overlaps without going into deep detail, there are overlaps in our work and we were working together as officer's anyway, but not as well as we should, so what we decided to do was formally integrate the three teams under the same unit, and we do have regular er internal meetings, management team meetings consisting of John, Pete me and Carol and we so we more co-ordinate the work for all the teams much more systema systematically, that we know what everybody's doing and that way we believe we can use best use of resources we've got most effectively. Then within the team's, in the Policy Team there were three Policy Development Officer's, in the Neighbourhood Development Team there were two Development Officer's and in the Community Development Team there are one, two, there are well there are normally six officer's that you could I that you could identify, but there are other people that relate to them, but then it gets a bit complicated so were keep it at that. The the great, the one thing about the Community Development Team to point out is that, they've got people working on pa particular in particular ways with the community. We've got two officer's for example who are leading on working the young people in the town, Youth Development Officer's er we, the Local Government Unit has a policy team initiated work on the youth policy, and this arose out of erm a member seminar's, September eighty nine, where er the members felt that really the Council wasn't doing enough for young people, that we as a Council, not not to think about young in the way we deliver our services and it was felt that we needed to go out and talked to young people, which we did in the winter of that year, erm and find out what they wanted from us, and the res as a result of that, that, that policy, and that consultation exercise has now developed into a front line service where we have two people full time working with young people in the town and that's on various things, graffiti project,the underpasses in the town we, which have got graffiti type I mean I know there not everybody's cup of tea, but I mean they way. when we erm, er when we were doing those projects we erm, we had a comments book and more, more people were in favour of them and saw them as an improvement to the town and so it needs something that's really interesting actually, it's er, erm the work's department have said, as a result of those graffiti projects they can shift two officer's from the graffiti team to the highway's team, so it's actually cut down on the work of actually clearing up unwanted graffiti, so it's had a positive effect, so we, we've got these two people work with the other people and we've got Dorothy who's working with, with black people and ethnic minorities in the town and erm for people who were here when this presentation was last given, er Robin who used to be in the local The Policy Team of the Local Government Unit is now actually a Community Development Officer, one of the decision's, Robin use to do video work for the Authority erm, and we decided we asset whether the the need for that kind of, k ind of work to continue, and we thought on balance not erm and he now is running the music rehearsal space over at Latton Bush, that again is a project for young people, to enable, it's a place where band's can practice and that's the problem in Harlow erm and er that's really exciting project because it's bringing in a lot of income for the Council as as well as providing the service that people want and, and it, I mean it is important at this time that we are doing limited projects where we are bringing in income, cos at, you know we estimate that erm we can get that erm rehearsal space properly resource, that project could be self financing, so your providing a service but your also getting paid, your getting paid for as well, so erm that is who we are now and were er, where were located, we have an open door policy as people will know. Were in the, the first floor of the Town Hall, erm along the corridor with, where the General Manager's office is and most of us can be found in there, so erm it is, I just think it's interesting for you to see how the things link up because, those of you that have contact with the Community Development Team will know that over at Latton Bush there is a Community Resource Centre, er that you can use, well that's linked in with us, and we provide information for us, so it's important that you know that if you go there, you also can have a connection with the Local Government Unit as as well, as a whole like the Policy Team if you, if you want information or anything. So it's just the, give you the background to show how were linked, so that's who we are and how we organize, is that clear, has anybody got any questions. Yeah, what's happen to the Steering Committee? What's happened to the Steering Committee? Mm. What the Local Government . Erm it doesn't meet . No it doesn't meet any more. Not at all. No. It, there, there hasn't, I came here in, when I came here in February eighty nine it was meeting to, and the idea being to discuss particular things, to get particular things off the ground, but it has, I think the reason why it, it didn't continue to meet was because it wasn't felt necessary basically. The problem is the people from the community the and that's important. Yes it's difficult. It means that your, you officer are running the whole show now. Yeah, And that, without input from the community. Well except that we do, I mean in in offence erm we don't get it from that particular forum, but I wouldn't say that, that is how we operate. No. Because the Local Government sub committee does, does . I mean deliberately the actual community itself was set up, so it does have representation from the, the community. Put . Mm. I'm, I'm certainly as I was going to come on to explain and the way you will see ourselves working, is not people who sit in the Town Hall and just turn out reports, I mean the kind of work we do and the way we work means that were actually very much involved in the community groups, but I mean if it was, if it was thought to be an issue that we needed to have greater community involvement, i.e. to resurrecting that forum then that's something that, you know, we may need to address, but I never saw it as operating like that anyway, I mean I saw it as it's almost like in a cabinet of members mainly.. We were disappear. That's right, they get on the subject. Well I think that how it came. That's right. Can't remember them. Yeah. What's is was what he was doing at the main committee anyway.. Well I think that er, you know, just didn't happen like that though, except things like that in one way and. That's right. . Yeah. Well I still miss it. I think the er, the sort of looked after her as well, especially in the evening times. Mm, yeah. Er, we go through Old Harlow. Yeah. The people sort of eight o'clock, nine, and there just congregating by the Health Service there,anything night and I think a lot of the trouble . That's right. Got to do something . That's something we, we, that's what we found and one of the things we have got is this youth bus actually operating in the town and it erm, it's running three nights a week, we can't cover every bit of the town, but it goes to different area's of the town, The Stow, and Old Harlow, I mean we've actually got quite good relationship's with, with, with the young people in Old Harlow, but erm, I mean we can't cover every night, I mean there is a problem, of erm, you know, you you get from a position where you recognise it, you, you, you need to start catering for a particular group and it takes a long time getting there. I mean as, as a, the fact is that, like providing services for the young people is legally the responsibility for Es of Essex County Council. Mm. And, and, you know, they've got paid youth officer's working in Harlow, now they are, there are, they're over they're over stretched it's true and, but we, I mean what were doing here is actually supplementing there service and were not meeting all, we wouldn't of erm meeting all the demands, but the important thing I think is that were continuing to erm, you know, were trying to do something about it, and one of the things that were trying to do as officer's in the Local Government Unit is work with Leisure Services and get them to put more resources into doing things for young people. You see, this, where we young we've had all the youth organisations which most of us belong to, that's all we had in those days. Yeah. . And if you went to films. . That's all the organisations there were. We went to church. .. That's right, well actually, one of the documents that we produce, I haven't brought it along with me today, was a report , when we did the consultation, we, we produced erm, eh I mean we talked to young people and got their views on a whole range of areas, transport, housing, facilities, and we, we produced it in, in this news report, and it's very, rates were very interesting. I use the . Erm, read it, erm that's right. What does the, what does the youth bus actually do it, except go round on four wheels, I mean what's it's function? . What's it's functions?. When it goes , I mean I'm speaking as a resident of The Stow and I know there's lot's of complaints and shop keepers and er people in the flats and that round you know the shops there and you do feel a bit intimidated if you walk through The Stow at night. Yep, yep. Erm, which is a shame because as kid's we all hung around street corners and cafe's and things . Well actually , the function of the youth bus is like in the absence of buildings in, in area's where people want to go, it's fulfilling that function, on the bus there are things like videos, people can play music, they also get erm, you know, we don't just let them do what they want to do, although were, you know, where quite erm, quite progressive with them, we actually provide, we have information on the the bus, provide information, we've got a Coun we involve local Councillor's like on Aids and stuff like that, I mean you have to be quite sensitive when you do something like that, you know especially if, you know, with the age group, erm, but erm, you know you get younger people coming on, twelve year olds to thirteen year old and what not. But I mean they are there to provide advice and we do get an awful lot of case work. Mm. You know, young, homeless people we pick up on this bus and er, we have, we we've sort of ended up pursuing their cases with the housing department and getting temporary accommodation . And do you ask there opinions about what they want? Eh, yeah . Yeah . Continually, continually. But I mean we also, we, I mean we're providing a service for them to allow them to come on off the street, use the bus, right, but at the same time were trying to provide services for them because one of the things that came out in a consultation was, young people didn't feel that there was enough information for them in the town. They didn't feel for example they could go into the advice centre, they didn't feel it was for them. Mm. And so erm, the youth bus is, is trying to fill that gap, it's not ideal, because what we actually want to do is get the advice centre to provide some information and to look at ways they can open up to young people. Yes Yeah, this was brought up last night at the meeting at of Old Harlow and Potter Street er forum. Aha. And it was brought up last time that erm, in the Potter Street area, not enough was being done to occupy the minds of the Yeah. And there is nowhere in that area for them to go. No. Mm. mm. And it was stressed quite strongly. Well that's good, I think that's really encouraging because it, it can't, you see, this is the sort of an example of the way our work goes, right. We in the Policy Unit say we, we, members raise something and we get onto it and say right, this is how we can tackle it. The big step is then getting the rest of the Council to take it on board, that's the big step, you know, leisure, the neighbourhood office's, I mean the neighbourhood office's are quite good, I mean they've got a, they've got a budget, a development budget, and like in Katherines and Sumners I know that a large proportion of the development budget there went on projects for young people, you know, so there are using there money. Yeah. So, erm, I mean, that was, we thought I came to a discussion about young people which is really good and it really did have people in your age group interesting . We are very interested . But that's er,that's. We've all been young. I mean that's what we're doing on the Council for , but. We've been there . We've, we've all been tearaways. But, if I can. Ssh,. If I can I'll be. Quite please. General level and talk about the Local Government Unit and what are erm, what, how I see our main areas of work, right. How I would classify them. Erm, the first thing you do is a central policy thing, a major function is to analyze, interpret and develop strategic responses responses to all major Government legislation. When it, and the Government can produce fifty pieces of legislation affecting local government since nineteen seventy nine, I haven't been here since nineteen seventy nine thankfully, so I have to analyze everything , but they always landed our the ma the major ones and, so for example erm, it was the Local government Unit that produced the initial response of the Poll Tax, what strategy the Council should adopt er, the Council won't distance approach, we wanted to make it clear that the Poll Tax was a Government erm, it was a Government initiative and it was being forcedly on us and that was the way, did that effect it, that was a guided and then there was the nineteen eight nine local Government Housing Act, which I'm sure many of you . Familiar with, which is basically the piece of legislation, which is still in force now and still a major problem for us, which is about getting Council Rent's up to the level of private sector rent's and forcing Council's to do that. Erm and it, it was us, I mean not only do we, I mean we develop her a a response, that means, we, we work with Councillor's we work with Senior Officer's in other departments and we look at the policy angles, like for example with, with that piece of legislation, when, when we first realised what the impact for that legislation was, it was gonna mean that we were ten million pound short in our housing money basically, that was, that was what it looked like on the surface and you think oh my god how you gonna make up for that short fall, that would mean an eleven pound a week rise in rent, that's what it worked out as, so, well we can't do that, how, and then you have to look at the legislation and you say what are the loop holes here, and erm, and it involves contacting outside organisations and getting there opinion and finding out what other Council's are doing and responding to things like this, and we did come up with a way, of, of reducing that deficit, but that's the kind of thing we do. At the same time we were organising meeting's to tell local people about it and to get there views and to make it clear again that we were, you know, we were in a position where we were being forced to do something by this legislation that we didn't want to do and we wanted just, the alternative was if we had set a rent rise, which have been dramatically higher, I mean the four pounds, twenty five rent rise that we eventually had to agree to was higher than what the Council wanted to put the rent's up by, you would think well the Council put the rent's up by four pounds, twenty five, erm, and you know, that, that's why the Council does that sort of thing but it's us that gets involved in that kind of work, producing information and developing responses and then the secon d major area is what I've just labelled a strategic policy development, and that mainly erm put policies that are like a rise within the Council rather than things that come from outside, like for example, because were the kind of Council we, we are, there was a debate amongst officer's and member's to develop an anti poll strategy and two hundred and eight thousand pounds was found to be linked to that strategy and erm, as that's enabled various initiative's to get under, under schemes, crashes for children in the town, stuff like that, er and also, erm to provide an overall policy frame work for other Council department's. Like when there considering how there gonna spend there money every year, they should have reference to this policy cos general Council policy like, how can I spend my money to redistribute resor resources, so that we can provide more for people who are in need, so it isn't just about projects, it's about a policy and we develop those kind of things, we've already talked about the Unit Policy and we developed that. Other things we get involved in as a Central Policy Unit. Things like, it was us who set up the Benefits Unit in the Town Centre, you know, we, it was considered that you know we as a neutral policy team are in without departmental buyers rather than political buyers, that's a joke, erm,would be the best people to erm, er set up this unit, we don't have any less interest, the benefit's, the benefit's felt within the housing department with with the introduction of Poll Tax and the Poll Tax benefit, it wasn't clear where that could go, so we were the people who had to sort that out. One of the other the other things that we will erm be taking responsibility for is, is something called the Front Line Review which I want to come back too, because it's something that will interest you as a group erm, but that's basically again a Council learn initiative, where the Council's want to look at over the next month all of the front line services we provide, the, the services that you come into contact with on a day to day erm level and look at, you know, are we providing a service as you want, are we providing them efficiently, how would you like to see them better provided. It's a way of as a Council taken the position that we ought to be spending your money effectively, right. It's also tied to the fact that were, we have less money than we used to because of the introduction of Poll Tax, it is tied to that cos we are constrained but, erm that's the kind of thing that we get brought into to support, erm and then another area is progressing policy initiative's in other Council departments. In other Authorities you may have whole research and policy sections in the particularly departments, like a housing research and policy section. In this Council we don't have, it's not organised like that. Department's tend, eh, the actual service department are very much what I would call practitioner lead, you've got just people there doing there job and there've been doing there job for years, and that's you know, there not, the very rare thing today, erm, thinking of policy sense about the way in which they could change that service, you just get on and do what they've always been doing. Erm, so, the, given any organisation should always be looking at what it's been, it's doing to see whether, what it's doing, erm, it should continue to do, you know, whether the, whether the services is a defunct or whatever, or whether we could provide it in a, erm in the most up to date way, the most progressive way. We as a as a policy unit get involved in that kind of work as well, so working with departments, looking at new initiative's and trying to work with them. Now that isn't easy actually, because you know, the practitioner's think they know best and they actually quite resent, you know, the young Policy Officer's coming in and saying let's do it this way, shall we? Coming in at all, so that's, that isn't easy, but it, eh were it works it's really good I mean for example we, we d o up the Poll Tax enforcement policy, erm and again it was where the Cou I mean if the Council had followed the legislation on Poll Tax collection, it's you know, erm and it didn't want to do that, and so again well, it's, well it's related to this legislation bit, but we looked at, we looked at how we could get round that legal procedure and we looked at developing a more sensitive policy and we had to do that with other departments. A more practical initiative which would currently involve them is a self build housing scheme, it's at a very early stage, but basically erm, were working with the housing department, economic development unit and er work, the work's department, there's a, there's a corporate project team, and were, were looking erm, we've got to identify, positively identify a site for it, but we're looking at bringing in European Social Fund, Funding and erm housing association money to get a self built housing scheme for young people, you know, where they would be trained in manual skills to build there own house and they live there, erm and er, so that's, that's quite an exciting scheme. Erm the other thing we, we do is what I would call servicing community groups supported by the Council and I'll put servicing in inverted comma's, comma's here. Erm, these kind of group, kind of groups I'm talking about here are the West Essex Self Action Campaign the resident's groups, the homes and jobs campaign, school governors for 'em. A, it's part of, it's linked to the fact that erm, the Council's quite erm concerned to get, you know, community groups active in the town and responding to things as well as just the Council, Council Officer's, but it's also linked to the fact that we as Council Officer's can't be overtly political, it's far to say, and you know, what happens is groups get set up to resist things like last year when the hospital lost the fifty million pounds, there's enough people on it now to say that it's you people here that formed the bulk of thos e groups. Erm, that, there are sufficient people active in the town, they will come together and challenge those things. Now erm, the Council can support such groups, it can, it can, got formally decided the body to support such groups and with the West Essex Health Action Campaign all political parties on this Council decided to support it, because they were sad that we lost the fifty million. Legally, legally . Erm, and eh and we, if the the Council also can provide supports for those groups and it's us that will provide the support and we leave it as general as that. But erm, you know, that's, that is er a major part of our work. Erm the other area which is, it is just production and examination of, of information through leaflets, public meetings and conferences. And that goes back to what I said earlier, in that we just don't see ourselves working internally, in meetings, in negotiations and report binding, with erm, with other officer's, we see ourselves as a vocal point to get in information out, to, to people, erm and working with people, erm, and that's erm again a major part of the work we do and just as an example of something that we provide, this is erm, this is the hidden divide, the bulletin of Harlow's Anti Poverty Strategy Group, this is the latest edition, and it's just an update on erm impact of eh living in Britain in nineteen ninety one today, the people who are on low income, but we, we've produced that quarterly, erm, but there, we produce loads of leaflets, were always producing leaflets, and basically if there's a major piece of legislation there be, there be something worth getting use on it. Erm, and then I just thought I'd finally conclude a bright, cos I think it, it's like how I see myself at work, erm with showing you where our work comes from erm and basically you've got all these arrows coming in and er sometimes you do have a sense of feeling quite bombarded with requests for work, but the main, I mean the main formal source of our work is the local government sub committee, which is erm, like Mary was referring to earlier, every department or unit in our in the Council have to formally report and get it's work through by a Council committee, our committee is the local government sub committee and it formally sets our work programme once a year, and I our priorities, it also comes up with other things it would like us to do by the way, during the course of the year, so erm, that includes Mary as well.. Erm, and then we get requests for things from the leader of the Council directly, that he wants us to respond to, the chair of that committee to erm will, will do the same thing, we'll get requests from other departments relating to our work, some of which might of been you, we erm, the Council has a group for the finance advisory group, which is a small group of Councillor's and officer's that meet to discuss not in, in public session, key erm financial and other major policy erm issues that, and the reason why that group was set up, erm was that it felt like with the introduction of Poll Tax and the Local Government Housing and Finance Tax, that it needed outside the committee cycle to erm review the impact of those legislation to look at it's finances more closely and what, and we as a policy team report into that group and get request from work from that group as well. That group does have wider representation than just Councillor's, it has er Labour party representation on that group. We also get requests from work from the organisational review working party, which is a working party that's erm basically looking to progress to the D M D, Decentralization of Microtization initiative. We do get work from individuals, I said we have an open policy and people come through with problems that they've got because they know us and some we take up, we try and be helpful and, and take up individual problems and then we have a two way relationship with community groups and last and not, not, not least, we, we live across the corridor from the General Manager and he's always flying in and giving us work as well. So erm, that who we are, what we do and how we get our work and I hope that been interesting for you. Thank you. Very nice.. Any questions? Well, well actually, there's one thing I've missed out which I said I'd come back to, and that was the front line review that I referred to. Because when I was thinking about trying to talking to you today, I thought although we've worked quite a lot with people along this group, you might be sitting here and thinking well you don't seem to be doing any specific work for and with old people erm, well I think your quite independent and can work out your right that, but one of the things this front line review erm it erm, it's considering Council front line services under various headings, one of which is Retired Services that the Council provide as a group, now the leader of the Council wants to erm , get public views on how we look at these services, so, and that's, that's individuals and groups and one of the things that you might like to think about and I'm that we as a local government unit who are servicing this review can help you with, is to consider how you might want to fee in for that review, erm and, and consider this, that the re-services for retired people, that the Council provides that you use and basically whether you use that, or service, we want to hear that, the Council would need to know that cos were gonna be making decisions about whether or not they should continue in this front line review erm, and erm, you know, or what things you would, what, what are your questions on about those services, what other things you would like to see provided, things like that and I thing this group could quite easily make a collective representation, a collective submission to that process then you could do it as individual's as well, so that, that exercise it, it should be over by the eleventh of October it starts on the sixth of September. Is that the one that's being run upstairs by Jean , by the way? No, no. It's a different one is it? Oh This ones by, er actually you are the first members of the public to know about it. Oh. In fact you know about it ahead of most Council staff I would say. I mean the communication strategy for this whole thing has got to be sorted out and, you know, we want, the leader wants staff involvement, public involvement in it erm, and erm, but I'm just telling you advance on what's gonna be told. Fair enough. But, erm, that this is gonna be happening and you ought to have an input. I'm sure we will. . If that's not, positive Chris!. There was someone before in Alex 's day, that's a very long time ago. Oh yeah. Could easily do it again.. It is a long time ago . Can I say something about, dear I don't know if your aware the against it now you see how much work they do you know keep it. Well thank you. There's, there's another thing I, another thing I'd like to mention which Chris hasn't mentioned this afternoon is, that is that a lot of the pamphlets that you are handed out here, generate from 's office, copying and things like that, all very helpful, which would cost us a bomb outside, and we get them free, so you know, they, they do help the pensioner a great deal that's why I said when she came in that's a lady I admire very much and respect, cos she's very good to pensioners. You won't get one done through a government .. I don't know. Were talking about appreciate pensioners concerned about there pets. Well I . Now I understand that place making a small in the is that right? I don't know.. It's just that next year it's under threat because of the cut backs . Right. Now I give this quite a strong point to bring up .. Right, okay. What we've just decided Chris actually. Yep. The R S P C A more or less in this borough is erm. Defunct. Used to put animals to sleep, they don't do much in the way of treatment, what we want to do from this is press for erm a P D S A grant. Right. Which used to function at the Stow. Yeah. Very successfully and we would, were gonna petition for that. Right, right, right, that sounds good. Well I'm actually gonna be the person servicing this return Policy Officer, this retired services group so, if you want to make it, either a person to raise you want to get out . . Laughing. . Right, I'll contact you.. I know. Yes, Archie. Archie. I, I could summize the sporting facilities for the pensioners. Yeah. Forewarning . Yeah. And I come in contact with people from other parts say erm. Yeah. They all the Harlow, one of the best places they know .. Well that's useful to know, because what important . Do need that don't you. In this retire services.. Is, you know, is actually erm getting as much information we can about the people who are using the service and erm and making sure it stays, making a case for it. Also, I mean one of the things that the Council is considering doing, I mean this interest, I know that other people from around this area come into Harlow, one of the things that the Council's thinking about is erm, is charging, or has debated, charging different rates for people who are coming in than, than those who live here. That's right. I agree. As a way of income generating . Don't know, it's dodgy that. But eh. It's a double edge . . You don't want to give people who are using the service as well. Because it also brings us in money. Er, I think that's very dodgy. One does it, one of the things that eh I don't know whether it does effect you at all Chris but eh, eh Chris, is, is the fact that eh these here foreign lavatories they've got around the town, now I'm dead against these for a number of reasons. . For a number of reasons. The first and foremost, most people don't like using them, but secondly we've already paid for this service in our rates and taxes, you know, when we pay our rates though, we pay for these toilets to be clean and all that sort of thing don't we? And yet they're bringing in these other things that er enormous cost which nobody wants and you've still gotta pay, and if you haven't got one, if you haven't got the necessary er coin then that, that could lead to very anti social behaviour.. Right, so I mean this is.. Listen, this is. This is something that's been on my mind for a very long time and I mean, I, I, I think it's about time we started getting rid of these things and updating our own toilets you know. I mean. Pauline said they're are a success. Ah? Who said there a success? Pauline. Perhaps I'll be unpopular here, but in fact until you think of a way preventing vandals from vandalising the toilets, as you know, I don't think there is, nobody has come up with any other way of doing it. And that, I mean I, I can't give you a but they are extremely well used, you can tell by the that's been . Oh . Eh, that's different from what I've heard . Erm, I mean it is a terrible problem .. It's different to what I've heard, very few I've met have . That, that's been the only other way of doing it .. perhaps you have to progress to have a toilet pass. .. No, but I mean, what I would say.. Er when we come down. What, what, what I would say is this, there always, there always talking about anti social behaviour around the town and as I say if people haven't got the necessary coin, it could lead to anti social behaviour, it's as simple as that. You know, I mean, surely that makes sense doesn't it? Or am I talking like an idiot? No, you're right. Right. The toilet system could be better. Yeah, much better. All round. Yeah, and if, if, if it's bad lies well then that's the case for the for the, the body that deals with the police. We have a body that deals with police here and they should be doing there duties, no good the local police tell us there's only eight members a shift, cos we don't believe it, they get on the Council and so they someone say what about all these other places that are being robbed of a night time.. You know, and all old people's things, like when they, when we old pensioners were being er, er knocked about on the erm highways and byways a couple of years back and I went to see the, the local police officer, what did he turn round and say, there all domestic affairs, they didn't want to know, yet the press will print, print these every week. here. Stop, right, listen.. Though, it's just that, one of the things that Caroline actually, er working on with Warwick University is a way of re-looking at public services and how there funded right, it's basically to help David to make the case with Margaret Margaret for more money with the local Government, but erm I mean the sort of things we've been getting into is like when you considering paying for public services, should you, should you pay like in advance like through the National Insurance System or like, like I mean the French Health Service for example, people pay it for ambulances when they use them, though they pay on a differential rate, but I mean it's an issue to debate, it's right, and I've just been thinking about lavatory while you've been speaking. Mm. And the thing is that when of the, I haven't seen anywhere any kind of poll system, you know, I think it's a, I've always thought it outrageous as a women actually, that women have had to pay for toilets,and erm, I mean if we, you know, if we, we might, I mean, I, I would be in favour of a system where, you know, you, say a local Council issues a pass, which you pay for, have differential rates, but it's like people paying up front for that toilet service. Mm. And you have some way of, of, of getting in, erm and you have some way of controlling access therefore into toilets, now I don't know whether that would totally it, overcome the vandal system, but I mean if your saying a pass wouldn't be any different than a coin you could devise an entrance, so that it wasn't, you know, so that what you would be doing is stopping having like the total open access all the time, you know, erm. . Mm. But, you know, it's just a thought. It could be with modern electronics couldn't it? Yeah. Yeah. You know, add, add a, a say a piece of plastic, like the bar system they had on, on, you know like a coded system. Same as the banks,for money. Exactly, although that, that, don't mention that for goodness sake, you'll, you'll, you'll be in dire trouble there . But I think. Money out the same time. I think we shouldn't be having this kind of debate about public services . No, but, you, you see what I'm trying to get at eh Chris, we've already paid once for this service and then, then asking us to pay again, which annoys me, you've already paid for the system and there asking you to pay again. That's all part of the Poll Tax . That's what I said Norman, women have been doing it for a lot longer. Your for ya. Your paying twice for the same service.. Right, has anybody got any. Any further questions? Any more comments about the local government unit? Chris is in the hot seat. Huh. On that question of the young people who were . This lady here. I, I only want to mention about the swimming pool and swimming for pensioners and there ever such a lot of people go swimming. Yeah. I wanted to point out to you, you know, we don't want it to happen. Right, okay. Anything else? On that question. I've just moved into one of the new housing complexes. Yeah. Absolutely wonderful. Right. It is really nice, they need more. Right, Alex. I wanna say on that question we were talking about earlier on about the young people and some facilities for them. Yes. There was quite an appealing letter in er one of the local papers this week for a young person on this particular subject. Er, I saw between the sixteen to twenty year olds, there's nowhere in the town where they can go and meet very easily, other than the pubs, this causes trouble. You see one of the things I've done, I've, I've done, er I feel we could do quite easily, is make our play barns more accessible to young people, you know. But I mean this is something that we . Ah, they're costly . Though we've got to pursue with leisure, well I think as part of this front line review we've got to, you know, throw everything up in the air. Yeah. And say, you know. Yeah, yeah. Hello. Well now, what can we do for this lady? Well, erm it's negatives so X-rays my leg. Right. Oh. X-rays. Now then. Back this morning. okay. Right, there's no arthritis that's fine. But that doesn't mean that you, you know, you won't have pain No. er because there's no arthritis. Aha. And you still get pains in your joints even though you don't have arthritis. Er right. But what I was thinking, maybe I'd be better going back to work and seeing how Mhm. You know? Yeah, er I think so. The, the one thing about arthritis that y you're better if you can keep going. Rather than because if you settle, if you, you let the, the joints settle, instead of being nice and smooth, they get all rough and the other bones knit in Mm. with them. It was just that pain I was getting. It, it seemed, seemed to have disappeared so I thought maybe that have my work, maybe Yeah, that would probably be a good thing. er more help than anything you know. Now, the wee pink tablets, did, when you started them, did they make a difference? Well, I was actually feeling very sleepy with them. You felt sleepy with them? Aha. Right. Well, what, what But I've not been taking them for the last week. Well, keep what you've got in the house, Aha. and if you feel that the pains are bad during the night, take them at Take them. bedtime. Mhm. Right? Take, keep them round the house, Mhm. if you need them, take them at bedtime. But er, I'm glad to say the er X-rays are alright. Aye, well, I was glad myself . Oh aye. Could you date it that I start back Monday, doctor, if you don't mind? Next Monday? Er aye well I'm . Monday that'll be the eighteenth, nineteenth now? Er nineteen four,ninety three. Er so that gives you another five or ten years before the dry rot sets in. I hope so. Oh that's good. Oh that's I sometimes think it's nature's wear and tear. Ah! You've got years and years and years to catch up yet. Years and years and years. Oh well, I don't suppose I damage if . Yeah, you've a lot of a lot of capers still to get up to Mm. There we are, that'll keep you right with these folks. It's just they like you to, to slip in before you actually start to . That means when I go in they know I'm s coming in you know? It kind of keeps them . Yes, oh aye, that's, that's right. Keeps them keeps them off your back. And it Keeps them off your back. Right, Isobel. Right doctor, thanks very much. Cheerio. Okay, cheerio now. Ladies and gentlemen, chairman er at eighteen minutes to two er my colleagues and I were in interview with the Liberal Democrat er Group er for this so called discussion. Er we left at er seventeen minutes to two erm having explained that er we have put a very respectable budget on the table er which was prudence as prudence personified er and that was something we felt the other two groups of the Liberal Democrats were the only ones there at the time er besides them do that we'd er I have to say to chairman that er the voted it is now being cobbled together er by the other two groups is eight hundred thousand pounds plus er in excess of the budget which the Conservative Group would want to see and just for the record, it's about the same sum of money that we've been saving on the fire cover in . er which goodness erm, we believe that we are spending substantial sums of money in areas of traffic calming town and parks and and various other areas that have er been er touched upon er we do not think it would be prudent to . spend over and above what we have already indicated and therefore we oppose the budget that has now been put forward by the other two groups. Thank you. Mr . Yes it would, it would not be properly to, to just make one comment and that is that the next five hundred thousand that the local is therefore two point six million from the reserve fund, that is substainable for two and a half years it is not substainable beyond. County Council Officer . Well thank you let's call in er resolution number two that's on the er pre-paid ground. Can I have those who are in favour please. twelve, thirteen, fourteen, fifteen, sixteen, seventeen, eighteen. And those against? one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten. And resolution number six, committee request a withdrawal of two point six million from the structural maintenance fund. All those in favour? eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve, thirteen, fourteen,eighteen Those against er we want to er item number three . Er car boot sales, chairman have been passed. Thank you chairman. Er car boot sales chairman have been erm increasing steadily in recent years and er in terms of number and er Hertfordshire are no longer the charitable events. People going with a few items from their attic. They've now frequented by an increasing proportion of traders in assumes in many cases a market type of status. They're part of the changing retail scene which ranges from the modern shopping centres at one end of the spectrum to squat shops, short term let shops and car boot sales at the other, for the other less source of er retailing, source of purchasing from a decreasing number of people erm trade in car boot sales are subject to the same controls as high street traders basically be product safety, erm, but as well as those problems we are increasingly coming across other problems in particularly counterfeit goods, goods like that on sale at car boot sales, quite attractive, wholly illegal and it won't be out for about six or nine months yet. But normally, but er the, they are for just that sort of product. Er Trading Standards Officers have been helping the police have made a large number of visits to sales in recent months targetting those where we know or suspect there will be concentration of counterfeiter goods and these stolen items we've been taking and seizing items, we've been making inspections and er we will also be distributing some leaflets to try and advise people of some of the risks and dangers that face them at this sort of event. The report, for the local authorities reports mentioned in the committee item is an attempt to give me the subject of car boot sales a fairly wide airing. An airing that had gone quite away beyond just trading standards issues to cover for example, things like fund control, matters are concerned with the district council and er environmental issues erm and I am able to anxious to get some views from authorities including the County Council so that it can form a debate and discussion with central government about possible wa , was forward. There are two specific issues of interest er I would like to refer to, first is resola resolution one, six small one. It is on the face of it a very simple amendment to a quite a small and in some sense insignificant piece of legislation that isn't , erm I hope members would agree that by changing that piece of legislation to say that if you're a trader you must display who you are and how people can get hold of you if the have a problem about products they buy from you, will not be too burdensome erm in these days of deregulation and so forth but on the other hand would help enforcements considerably and would also enable people to pursue their own remedies where they are dissatisfied with what they bought. I think generally speaking that would er formalise and er increase the er way in which markets and boot sales operated. The second point er chairman is that one particular solution adopted by a couple of County Councils the one in particular has been to have a local act requiring registration of car boot sales which gives enforcement officers a chance to know they're going to happen and it also requires display of names and addresses not suggesting it is not entirely suggest that is here but late last night we simply felt we want to talk about the possibility of a framework enabling this legislation which will allow that to happen on national basis oh, as a way of controlling this, this sort of activity. Erm in conclusion Chairman there's two, two comments are made, we have been receiving a, a number of complaints about car boot sales some unfortunately have been from consumers who've bought things and er have been er unhappy about what they've bought -often on the safety side. And increasingly complaints from businesses, complaints about unfair competition, erm the second point is that the, the report has been sent to vote upon now, but also to a number of er business and consumer organisations in the county a range of views is being expressed in response, as you'd expect, but in general terms most recognised there are particular trading, trend and pattern which needs to be addressed erm but most have all especially with the er display of this same as registration some form of registration must on the national basis would be erm a, a solution to this support. Thank you Chairman. Miss . I should like to propose that Labour resolution on this issue erm in order to address the problems caused by a car boot sales, we feel that a national scheme is needed requiring resis resu sorry registration in advance of an event by boot sale organisers and registration of individual traders at boot sales. So could be designed to allow this to make a profit by empting out their attic, without the requirement of registration once the insurers and professional traders was registered. The registration of traders in secondhand goods could then to keep records then of items bought and sold. This minimizing the risk of, the risk of stolen property being traded. Traffic congestion and parking problems caused by car boot sales could be reduced if the police were forewarned thus alleviating the considerable distress suffered by people living near to car boot sales sites. A registration scheme would allow scope for exchanging information between the the local authority and the police. Registration of events would also allow local authorities to refuse the use of the unsuitable sites or prevent the abuse of the current laws which allow boot sales on each site for a maximum of fourteen days per year. As er already mentioned some local authorities have already implemented such schemes by going to the expense of introducing private legislation through parliament. We would like to see the regulation of car boot sales implemented on a national basis, building on a current good practice. We cannot see how self regulation schemes could be expected to work as neither car boot sale organisers or the traders involved are part of any coherent organisation. Combined with the suggested resolution one and including our amendment of the addition of the word enforcement, these strategies would offer much greater protection to the consumer minimizing disturbance to residents and reducing unfair competition and I would like to recommend that these views be communicated to as the views of this county council, thank you. Thank you Miss is your resolution for the . I object er er yes I would like to, I would like to er second the resolutions, this, there is er, there is er a certainly a great deal of concern within the community both those er who live within reach of, of, of, of car boot sale erm er sites in particular the ones that are regular and also the people who attend them and get ripped off, that we need to do something about er bringing er the er, er at to add, add to law into range of, of the people who of, of people who er er of of people who er sell er of people who sell those goods at these at these functions. Er there's obviously concern about the one off and the er charitable events er ha had had er er act actually, actually that I, I, I, I, think some of the comments of, of both Mr and that he and of er of the mover if there if there trans , if there trans , transmitted er er would actually largely deal with those er, er concerned so I'm, I'm very happy to second. Mr . Thank you Mr Chairman erm from the Conservative side we would erm be happy to accept the two labour er resolutions erm as, as on the paper as erm I, I would ask that er perhaps with a spirit of co-operation and I think we all agree on this subject. If members would accept the additional resolution which stands in my name erm which reads this is what we'd copied to all district councils and they would be made aware of the county council's views on the matter. Chairman erm I know from my own experience elsewhere that er car boot sales are a cause of great concern and I, I won't repeat what various other small local firms have said because I agree with all their comments. Erm the element of control side of it, is extremely frustrating and have have been hinted at by previous speakers to see what are in effect regular and truly massive retail operations going on without development control, without the development of any kind of highway controls which is a county council matter is fully my argue frustrating. I would also like to erm ask that erm that we do have everything we can to ensure that where this council has the possibility as erm landowner or property owner or whatever that we prevent or certainly discourage the use of such property for car boot sales and I had in mind sales that are taking place based on erm education property and in the case of Hatfield we were able to persuade the relevant authorities to er cause the car boot sale to cease but that particular car boot sale was causing great damage to the legitimate traders in both the Hatfield market and the Hatfield town centre. So there's an economic development argument to all of this as well and I do hope er county will be able to co-operate in that respect. I would ask you to accept the, the additional Conservative erm resolutions. Thank you Mr , Mr . Formally second. Thank you Miss, Miss . Oh I, I support that, what people have said, I just would like to now say a word though for people that actually run car boot sales. I mean that they're a valuable source of fund raising in the schools for example, erm and I would not, they are also a valuable source of fund raising people that need to raise money to buy their kids Christmas presents and so on , you know, I mean people, they're not all market traders or people shifting stolen goods at car boot sales. There are people who are genuinely trying to make money for themselves and their families at car boot sales, so I think, you know, I don't, I wouldn't like to see them stamped on altogether. I agree that it is useful to know who's actually running the stall in case you you've got knocked off. Since I've recently had my car radio stolen I'm quite in favour of them not being sold at the car boot sales perhaps somebody would like to returns it to me but erm, the, you know, I'm er you know they do need some restr , some legislation but I wouldn't want them to be legislated out of existence. The other thing is too that erm perhaps the police could en a bit more vigorously enforce the parking. If you go to see this football club to watch the football match, you are not allowed to park on the grass verge outside because the police don't let you but if you go to a car boot sale at the football club the next day the cars, the grass verge is littered with cars cos it's Sunday presumably and the police are not allowed to enforce on it so I do think that some of the traffic problems maybe need to be more carefully reinforced to stop this, you know, to stop the dealers you're not going tyo these places but you know I think you do need to, you do need to, to regulate them but please, you know, don't let's push them out altogether. Thank you Miss , er Mr Chairman I'll try and be brief er I think the problem with the car boot sales is that they have been er hi-jacked commercially er it seems a good idea it's, it's another line another way of disposing of goods whether they're straight goods or whether they're they're er misappropriated goods or whatever. Er and I think that er that's part of the problem that we have. I must say erm I, I do wonder whether the district council might be enabled to say unless goods are sold from a car boot this is not a car boot sale er, therefore, we would put a ban on all commercial vans and vehicle entering these sites er that's not being articles described in the er in the er maybe that's something you could look at. I am concerned and I have mentioned briefly to Mr erm something which was er said to me by a local resident who've read the paper this morning that British Rail are gonna start using their car parks to hold er car boot sales. Erm this can only exasasberate er an already difficult situation chairman, I do wonder whether the, the people that British Rail are trying to attract to use the service and, and do bear in mind that this County Council recently voted ten thousand pounds in subsidies er to er towards British Rail to enable people to travel on a Sunday. Now what happens when you go to the station on a Sunday to park your car and find all the spaces are taken up by a car boot, er the whole think is a nonsense and er frankly somebody should tell British Rail so er I wonder if this is Chairman a shot across the bows of er rail privat privatisation and if it is I welcome it. Erm . and erm, but I I have to say that I, I do believe that we need to address more particularly er the transport a aspects of this and the planning aspects of it which, I think er are tending to get eased out of the er agenda, any way, if I may say er in respect of trading standards and the legal aspects of er the, the er produce that's being sold there. Thank you er Mr . I'll be brief chairman er first of all can I say we would accept the chairman, the conservative resolution; turning to Labour resolution number two we would ask that you take on board to grant a er sales run by schools and other legitimate charities. I don't know if that is acceptable to you, er, if, if that's the case then if we will then except . Right now we have Mr . Erm thank you Mr Chairman,high up in the Cardiganshire coast near , on the trunk road between and where the population is the sparsest in Wales and certainly a . There are hundreds of people gathering every Sunday morning for a car boot sale . they are very very popular indeed not with us! of course the same thing happens in Hatfield which is done within about a stones throw literally fifty yards of that field market and town centre and such like and it's very unpopular. Erm it is a social gathering and whether people get er, er get rooked er, they get done or whether they get a bargain or whatever happens, they, they seem to enjoy it, but nevertheless it's done according to whether you want to make money, the person owning the land wants to make a bit of money, there are a number of entrepeneurs who actually arrange and the middleman who actually goes round booking up the sites and so when you're talking about charity a charity will get it organised for you by an entre ,entrepeneur and then there's the er the er the traders themselves, some of whom may be purely independent, some the, some may be obviously dealing with that ta erm that kind of aspect which is not exactly possibly legal. It's the planning aspect that's difficult, people er,jolly well well people do sell their bodies in the street, people do sing in the street, people make music in the street. I mean it's it's happened and I was ha I was so interested in the subject that I asked Mr for a copy of the report where it goes back in the history and of course it is the history of trading standards and, and so on. Nevertheless there ought to be some control somewhere and we're getting back to what I think Richard said was the original idea of some kind of development control that is a popular thing in order to be allowed, people ought to make money for the various charities and so on, we ought to try and prevent er certain unjust practices going on and so on . So that the social, the social idea in the towns and people can gather in a market place and do what they will without too much trouble, but nevertheless and immediately you try to restrict, we, we run into trouble, but we must protect the people and that's the purpose for the trading standards. Thank you Mr . Mr . Thank you Mr Chairman, I, I've got a certain amount of experience in the subject because we got quite a big one in our village. In actual fact the er farmer put the planning application in to hold this market every week really refused it outright saying it's a very sensitive area of Green belt and we didn't want two hundred er stalls there every Sunday on the car park coming out of the road and everything else. He won that actually on appeal because he said he needed to raise the funds for a project he'd got in mind and they allowed him twenty eight days in the first year, he now carries on fourteen days without planning permission every year, but give him credit he does run it very well, er and you cannot fault him, but we in our area do actually issue licences, you cannot have a car boot sale or market stall without a licence and I personally have run the charity markets in er the village high street and got a licence at the cost of a pound. On that licence you have to indicate when you're going to have erm this market, you have to indicate how many stalls, how many people you expect to attract, the times you're gonna be open and you have to give a months notice. Therefore if you issue a licence like this the local authorities can check up, market people can god own and make sure it's not getting out of hand and the local police know the sort of traffic to expect and therefore can control . So if we could use, insist on issuing licences, that would go a long way to sorting some of these of these problems out. Thank you. Thank you, erm before we go to the vote er Mr will you accept that er the third line down from the second resolution er made for the national licensing of all registration scheme will cover the amendment you wanted to put on to the labour resolution. I would actually like to insist on the resolution. Miss are you willing to accept the amendment? Could I say that we'd be willing perhaps that the Conservative amendment first of all, and then to turn to the amendment by the Liberal democrats erm I would like to suggest that schools or other charities, not just schools are exempt from any registration charge but will still notify the local authority in, in advance of an event, because events held at schools or by charities still create problems with traffic and parking and congestion Here, here. the same way as they any profit making event. I hope that's acceptable Can I say something? Yes that will go So if we organize amendments and resolutions is everyone agreed we agreed Thank you very much,er perhaps now, we'll move on to item four. tea now? Thank you. Yes . Right we'll now go for tea thank you,can I call you to order please and make a start on item number four. I hand you over to Mr Thank you Chairman,last environment committee er, you asked for updates on the position of the service, these are the last years I have managed to inspect the reports the service. And before you, you have that update what I am trying to do is to list all of the recommendations we obtained in respect of the report and they are actually three -one, to three -twenty and then we put paragraph two on each of those recommendations to bring you up to date on what the service is doing. I don't intend to go through all of theos recommendations hopefully er a fairly time I'll having same questions on them. I do hope the members will recognise that the service has not be sitting on its laurels er between inspectors' reports but that we have been modelling on one quarterly to er correct any omissions with respect to boundary or to make the necessary improvements in the service erm as, as recommended by the inspect and supported by members. In paragraph four, page six, we do make a small point about the financial implications er on of course that has been resolved because of er the resolution carried forward in the budget debate and a note there about central training which I could er just, just explain slowly because I have had a number of questions about this. What that refers to is that we do have a contract with the fire service college and we are satisfied with the resources we are committing to training at the moment and should any more be necessary at any time we will bring that back to members. I don't at this moment, envisage that the need for any further resources in this area. Thank you Chairman. Thank you, are there any questions? Mr erm Chairman thank you, erm,para three, fourteen, the recommendation there was er, er the cause for some anxiety and concern. I wonder if the Chief Fire Officer can er add anything further on that. Yes sir, the, you'll recall that carrying out this re this particular review to finalise the er fire safety review and members have accepted the recommendations from that in which sought to ignore that although we have an limited number of specialists inspecting officers that we widened the remit of all employees in the Fire and Rescue Service so that all er operational fire fighters carried out some form of inspection, thereby producing a higher work output than before. We recognised through that review that to train all those people to do the work we would have to use the officers specialist inspectors and therefore those specialist inspectors would be carrying out less inspections during this year because they'd actually be carrying out some training. Therefore our overall results would be down, there would be a downward trend in that. We have er found that to be the case there is a downward trend, but I do make the point, and I did make the point to the inspectors notwithstanding that, all of our respecting officers bar those that were doing the training of course do produce a higher work output per individual than most of our peers up and down the country and we have statis statistical evidence to support that. The inspector was pleased to receive that, noting the fact that we had a, a drop in our work output but expected that, that would go up in the next year or two. Mr . Er Chairman, yes, if I may just make a couple of, of, of, of, of, comments on, on, on the report side, I, I very much welcome the report back which I think has clarified a number of areas in the inspector's report and what the services are actually, actually are doing about this one, I think er overall it's er it, it, it's, it's very, it's very er it's very er very useful to see er what has been done erm I, I, I, I, I've been assured by the Chief Officer er on item, item er, item three one at the top of page two, that the operational plans being devolved to individual sch will not apply to operational activity, they will be er to separate activity within the s er sch station, erm I did raise that because I was concerned about one station saying yes we will attend the fire and another one saying we won't, which obviously is not appropriate er but with that caveat I, I, I, very much welcome the report, I would like to move the proposals sch standing in, in, in, in, in my name that we commend the report as well as er er what's on the officer's erm er, er, er recomen er the re the recommended er resolution and that we send a copy of that, this . to her majesty's sch inspector so that er they could be aware of, of, of the action that the service er as has, has, has taken. I'd like to move that erm er that amendment together with the officer's original er resolution. . I take great pleasure in being able to second this amendment. Here in Hertfordshire we have a fire and rescue service, that we can quite rightly be as proud of as the fire fighters we surveyed are. I'm particularly please to see the that we've found ways of removing artificial obstacles to the recruitment of whole time and retained fire fighters and I look forward to seeing women amongst ten new fire fighters recommended in this report. Here, here. Most of the public don't often think about the Fire Service until they actually need it but I am sure they will welcome fire fighters, not only improved our confidence in the service but theirs as well. Mr do you wish to . Right thank you Mr Chairman erm I welcome the report and erm it's good to see that er the observations of the inspector have been taken on board and professionally addressed, erm I've come to expect that, take that for granted from er Chief Officers. We have the finest peo band of men looking after our fire service so I have never had any doubt, I didn't really need this report to tell me, but it is nice to see it written down, to see just exactly what they're doing. I am particularly er pleased to see the I T provisions at three two and elsewhere in the report the training for the business plan has been given to the staff . I think that erm, erm I hope Mr will agree with me, we, we can go away well satisfied with what our what our, our Chief Officers, his staff have done and will welcome them,wel welcome the report. Mr Chairman I would like to move the resolution in standing in the Conservatives' name I would say that I would hope that erm the other side would er join with us in voting that through and certainly have no problem with the relevant resolution that Mr put forward. Is that formally seconded? Yes. Yes Chairman I'd like to second that and just to erm say very briefly that er erm I, I very much welcome the report and the speed with which the Chief Officer is seen to have addressed most of the issues there are one or two bits that, that were of course were in fact posters, posters er be dealt with erm I have to say I still have some concern erm that the Chief Fire Officer and his team are so well supported on a very broad front on their decision making and their professionalism and yet on other matters of sound advice which has been given by er who are turned aside and just simply not given the proper consideration that they should have as in that er respect Chairman and I, I, I have some concern, erm it, it would not surprise me indeed if the, Her Majesty's Inspector of er er brigades, when he comes round himself, has some comment to make on that since I think he's expectations as well are almost as high as mine is. Mr . Mr Chairman may I sch speak to the Conservatives amendment and ask what is meant by B. precisely Mr Chairman if I could answer that the, the, the once the inspector comes back to the Fire Service and reports again and he is due back in June, we will then look at the matters he raises at that time and he will look at the progress report er what, what has happened since his last inspection and then we will have the opportunity to look at what the Inspector has, has to say after his visits, not very far away er, their Chief Officer will go on with this programme implementing the recommendations made in the report that you have before you and er we we would like to see a report back which we will do anyway erm after the Inspector has visited and discussed it. But Chairman if I may I'm slightly concerned about this because it said that other matters erm we don't know what other matters until the inspector has been in, in June and has identified those other matters, presumably when we get the further inspector's report next Autumn or after June, it will address issues which may have been ones he has addressed this year and maybe not, er and we will have to look at that inspector's report when we receive it. But until we do I can't see that we can pass something which refers to something we know nothing about. Mr . I am something else. If we say we'll wait until after the inspectors' reports again, and then we'll consider that, we do that any way -that's not necessary. What I was if any other matter comes into light before it comes in we don't do anything about it and that's why I would oppose that because of this because one it's not necessary to move something that we would look at it and sit back and after the inspector reports. What I'm against is the inference that we don't put any other matters erm that comes up on the subject if it arose prior to the to June. I think there's a little bit of misapprehension Chairman on Mr, Mr er I don't think you can trust when we come to a, a Too right. a fire er policy and so on. There's nothing difficult about a whole stream of, of er comments were raised by the inspector Mr team are, have addressed a large number of them, have told us what they propose to do to deal with a number of er and, and I believe that there will be things left over when he's finished that, that he won't be able to resolve er perhaps er without the people that help the Committee er or some of us are always suggesting is that er those things that he is unsuccessful in resolving erm be identified and so that er when, when the er the Inspector makes his er his next report we can see just, just why that some of these other items there have weren't able to be addressed. It's as simple as that. Don't read too much into it, it's all innocent stuff of course. Thank you Simon Mrs . Thank you Chairman I, I actually agreed with those not so much that erm I, I have problems with erm other matters, it is more extra to be examined and because it actually says that it has to be examined once, and will therefore be re-examined erm, erm I am sure if it should be examined they have to put exact what it means examine in and before and as you say er you will be the first to say . oh oh oh. . I will proceed to take a, take the votes on the first the Labour motion. But I promise I . All those agreed? Agreed, agreed. Er then secondly with the Conservative resolution, I . I wonder, Chairman, if we can take this as A and B? Okay so well, take, take A then first Agreed Right B, page four One, two, one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten. And those against please One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven, yeah eleven. Come up with the goods we'll trust you. How many votes I . Three. . I'd like to say Mr Chairman, can I ask how many members . Erm, this, this report erm on recycling. Erm is before you to confirm on er Council and I'd like to start by saying very briefly that there is as you know a government legal distinction between the er the operational side of waste disposal and the regulation side, and properly er issues on recycling have been referred er and decisions on that should be referred to the policy committee but er we work very closely with officer's before you hear us er request it. There are three issues that we wish to be discussed, they were about erm the recycling of compostable garden waste, waste building materials and dry packages and in the report we've addressed each of those in turn and said something about er . that can be used for actually doing, doing the recycling on each of those, and and I would like to say that that this, this report had been erm prepared jointly by officers of the Transportation Department who were responsible for the operational side and wi and the officers and regulation side of, of the Authority Planning Environment Department and therefore the comments in the air have been shared between erm both sides er what I would like to say is that as well as the recycling activities which are carried out in our household waste facilities of glass, paper, waste -oil, etc., er there are we have in the last twelve months started two initiatives which I think will fall in into erm the, the first part -composting. One is in conjunction with East Herts and Essex Council Essex Council and contractors . we are at the moment er going through er an experiment compost an experimental site where this is going on er near Hertford and erm we are obviously interested to see how that goes before that may, or may not, be extended and the second thing is that there has been a green cone experiment going on in conjunction with Welwyn Hatfield District whereby erm householders . Sorry. Hatfield town Council? We've not, we haven't done any in conjunction with the District Council Officers Welwyn Hatfield District Council and, and no doubt the Town Council I'm sorry. Erm er whereby the green code has been allocated to some er some houses having, people are recycling through bottle, erm bottle waste. The building materials side is primarily issues held by the er, the private sector and issue of the waste by factories is something which is the subject of er new er regulations which are often advice which is expected shortly from the Department of Trade and Industry and and we are awaiting obviously for that to come out to see what should happen and therefore our advice to you is that we should contin continue to keep these issues under review through the waste er advisory matter the waste er Planning and Policy panel. Erm, er we talked to the departmental transportation departments er attended and it is I think fairly widely open to members of the county council so that, these issues can be pursued as and when they arise or choose to comes along . Mr . Yes thank you Chairman of I, I think we all welcome this er this particular report and er yes I think raised the issue as she did. Erm can I draw your attention to er Mr 's closing remarks. Er this the issues contained in the report er contined to be er, er considered by the waste management policy panel which is meeting now on er, erm a regular basis and will in due time no doubt report to the environment committee on some of it's deliberations. Erm there is er a danger that we as a County Council might become er embroiled in doing erm er work concerning the possible . which of course is rightly the, the domain of the District Council so I hope we won't get too involved in that. I have to say Chairman that I find that the suggested resolution of six is totally adequate to deal with and I, I have read er the motion proposed by through a couple of times, and you know, it's having a few frills here and there and some are, I, I, I find this one thing er more than adequate er to deal with the situation and er I would move that resolution formally. Thank you Chairman. Miss . I'd like to propose the Labour motion because I think that this actually, these issues are very important and in a moment I shall say why I think they are. Erm and I think the Labour motion actually ensures that the County Council takes a more active part in addressing these issues as soon as possible. But even more so than the proposed the resolution proposed by the officers. Erm I'm happy to accept the officer's recommendations on the issue of the . Erm on the issue of building materials I feel this is of particular importance to Hertfordshire residents living as they do on the gravel there. Erm I am trying to local plan, places much emphasis on the use of recycled materials to reduce the rate of gravel extraction in the county and the associated environmental damage. Building materials form a large proportion of the waste dumped by fly tippers. Usually small building contractors who cannot afford the prices charged by official at your tipping site which are run by comm commercial companies. The problem which is outlined in the officer's report on people wasting petrol to take small amounts of material to recycling banks would not apply to building materials, as the quantities in question would be lorry loads which would otherwise be taken to a landful site or fly tip. As a County Council we have a commitment to reduce the amount of waste produced in the County, the building waste which includes spoil and rubble, forms around fifty per cent of the total waste production. Far more than household waste which forms about twenty five per cent of the total and therefore I feel that we can make an enormous contribution to the improvement of our environment by the establishments of sites for the collection for the sorting and resale of the building materials. I do realize that there are problems in finding suitable sites and that possibly that costs would be involved in setting them up, but for the reasons I've outlined we should take the bull by the horns and make an effort to find sites and budget for the costs involved so the benefits can be felt as soon as possible. On to the matter of composting garden waste, then the waste disposal off to landfill from household rescue could be reduced by about twenty five per cent if garden waste was separate County Council refuse site and composted. As this is an item which people would to a household refuse, waste site already, the problem of generating does not apply to this waste either. Some County Councils, notably West Sussex, already operate successful schemes of composting waste and reselling it to the public and surely Hertfordshire could do the same. I welcome the initiative that have already been started within the County and I shall be going to look at the site which is being offered to us, er but I do feel that we should be progressing these matters as soon as possible. particular importance is two items of waste. Thank you. Thank you Miss can I have your ? Chairman I would like to second and reserve my decision. Thank you Mr , er Mr . Mr Chairman I, I mentioned that whilst welcoming the report, erm our motion is to say is, is of a more general nature, we're looking at the, what is really has er greater standing for financial costs and other practical difficulties involved in increasing the proportion of waste erm who acts as that recycled in the County and apparent progress in meeting government recycling are not being too much and what needs a job and whilst we recognise that responsibility with this requires primarily with the District Council rather than County Council as their question of authority erm it's an area that we haven't had much erm, the, there hasn't been perhaps to the environment committee for some, some time now and I would like to s to actually look at this, look at this again because it is a fairly fast moving,ch changing area, so erm this really is then more of a general, general information and to look at it again. I do have some concerns with Rosie 's erm, er to vote, vote Labour resolution on active sites or suitable, suitable sites er for recycling. Is she, where, is she actually proposing that these should be located? in, in the countryside, in, in towns? because they're sens sensitivities o on that particular on the siting of that er particular activity and er we're seen it elsewhere, er, those of us who have been on this committee for some time will know the concern that there are about the location of waste recycling facilities and er as I say I would hate that we would have a list of sites across the county which would just start paying us money and quite frankly should never be started. Mr . Thank you Mr Chairman. Erm I would, I too am concerned with Rosie 's proposition. I think that what what she is in danger of doing is cutting across what the District Council's doing, we, er and in East Hertfordshire we are running at a, a composting scheme in conjunction with the County at and I, I, I understand that looks to be very promising. I would be, unwilling to support the, the Labour motion because I think there is a limit to how detail out of detail, we as a County Council should get involved in this, this should be a District Council matter with the County Council giving, giving support which is what is happening now. I do support this, which is Michael 's resolution because we should be looking at the financial costs and er going into the practical aspects of this and let's, let's face it er there are many aspects which are financially unviable and we should be aware of exactly where we stand on that. Thank you Mr Chairman. Thank you Mr . . Thank you Mr Chairman erm I didn't want to talk about issues but it's just really about sort of erm, erm because I think er Mr 's motion is erm, similar to er Rosie 's erm except that, I mean I think what we're actually saying is that we do actually have a number of waste planning sort of policy panel, er and this is something look, needs to be looked at in, in some detail, erm and if we just do it via a sort of straight report to the Environment Committee and I mean look at the sort of agenda we've got today er you know how much time can we spend on the details so I mean I hope the Liberal Democrats would accept that erm yes it will obviously come to the Environment Committee eventually er but that it actually should go to the Waste Planning to the Policy panel and other bits no doubt to the Waste Disposal sort of Sub Committee for this is the policy er committee of course . Erm but I hope you because the panel could actually look at this in, in some detail, erm not just one meeting if necessary, I mean, it could go over two or more er meetings and the other thing Michael was talking about, you know, where the big sites, where should they be. It is very difficult to find them. That that's why the last part of the Labour motion is saying, we wish it actually to begin to look and consider it and again it's something really which the the panel, erm or indeed the sub Committee if appropriate . erm could actually do, so what we are saying here is it needs to be considered seriously in answer so you know we hope the Liberal Democrats will perhaps come in and support us on this or perhaps amend their motion and send this via the panel . Thank you Mr er Mr Erm yes, Mr Chairman I should like to apologise to Bob for interrupting him then because er the enthusiasm about the green code business of course has to do with the Hatfield community project and is not initiated by Welwyn Hatfield when in the use er Herts County Council Paul in the community project, but nevertheless the green cone idea is the individual person, it's not the District Council and it's not somebody else taking a taking green erm green type away for composting. It's people doing their own thing in their own gardens. er sale occurred when they went through the electrical register and asked people who lived in flats whether they wanted a green cone, they didn't even have a garden, let alone a window box but nevertheless erm I the green cone extends ought to be reported on, ought to be encouraged and such like because it is the individual person who is going to recycle using their own garden in their own small way as opposed to transporting the stuff maybe to a waste tip and such like where it has to be dealt with at a an expensive way and if a the best part of the expense of dealing with waste of course is actually to transport and transport throughout the roads and if you do it in your own gardens so much the better and I, I, I should like to er and taking part in the green cone experiment er further experiments like that whereby the individual person is encouraged to do it. Thank you Mr er Miss . Chairman I would like to pick up on this point about the identification of sites. I have experienced in my division where the County and the District identify the sites and were making some progress before the planning application was approved. Now the planning application is for Waste Regulation rests with this Authority and I would emphasise that to members here that wh if you're looking at the sites you must bear in mind that we are the waste Site Planning Application Authority and that you cannot go and make progress in any direction without it coming to Committee here and I would hope that officers would bear in mind the sensitivity which has already been mentioned in agenda today but members will find that these applications er are addressed in their own district, in their own divisions. Secondly Chairman I would like to draw the Councillors' attention to the fact that I'm this years representative on the South East Waste Regulation Advisory Committee and we have indeed got in hand a project which is to look at the whole of the recycling and the priorities for the South East region and I would imagine that by the time our officers have reported back to this Authority that they will have an advantage of having access to that report. Mr . Chairman, I'm delighted to hear that er we are actually talking seriously about improving the recycling and the possibilities of the waste that's created by our society. Erm a few years ago when I and others were saying that another forum e , er we were being er, er we were being being, being told it was far too expensive and there was no market there and all the rest of it. We've actually got to address the issue of the waste of the resources of the planet and it seems to me that this report addresses that fairly substantially. Obviously we're only part of the function of waste disposal and possible recycling. The other side of the coin is the one that's, that's a, a, a that's, that's mentioned by Michael and that is the improvement in the proportion of the waste sch sch stream that can be recycled. I would hope that whatever the County would put in place would encourage the w the, the waste collection authorities currently the district er councils actually to offer at doorstep collection arrangements wo which I believe will substantially increase the amount of, of waste that could be recycled. There is evidence around the country particularly in, in, in, in Milton Keynes where that sort of arrangement applies and I think we as a County Council as the waste er as the Disposal Authority must make sure that we put in place arrangements which will encourage that sort of thing to happen. It, it, it, it, it's, it, it surprises me that the amount of waste er that the proportion of, of the waste is, is, is fifty percent being er, er, er being builders' rubble not to put too fine a point on it. Erm and I am also conscious of, of the amount of, of, of commercial er, er commercial er tipping and that, that, that, that, that goes on. We must ensure that any recycling point or any, any er disposal er points that we have and they may be er recycling points if, if, if, if this proposal is, is actually accepted. Are actually available at as widely as, as possible, they're not closed because they're full for example. As I have a real a real concern that as soon as that happens er, er the sch stuff is, is if often just dumped on the side of the road and I suspect that's more to do with commercial operators than, than to do with the private householders and it and it and it and it, it, it's it does seem er to me that er, er that, that issue needs er needs to be addressed as well. Thank your Mr , Mr would you like to exercise your right to reply or, or . I'll be very, very brief erm we cannot fall back the control of the country which even the highest rate of recycling that a number of them have already achieved the Government recycling target so now you've aimed er, I think it's something rich it more or less stands for er, I would see the role of the County is essentially is co-ordination between the various waste collection authorities through to the greater of the extense of . of the expense are going to er . recycling. Before we go to the vote, Mr would you still want to organize your region or vote on separate or are they willing to amend it onto Labour's resolution. Ladies and gentlemen we would like our erm motion voted on separately. We are not happy with the Labour resolution for reasons I indicated earlier. . . . So I am going to start by taking a vote on the Labour group resolution proposed by Mrs . So all those in favour? One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten. And those against? One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve, thirteen, fourteen, fifteen, sixteen. Well then we'll take the vote on the resolution proposed by Mr can I see those in favour? One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve, thirteen, fourteen, fifteen, sixteen. And those against? nil . and as we take the vote on Mr 's er resolution. See those for One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve, thirteen, fourteen, fifteen, sixteen. And those against? nil. We now move on to item number seven. Erm . Three, two, three, two, three, two .. Agreed. Agreed. Agreed. Agreed. Before you agree, there are three . Too late, too late there are representation which I do need to put forward, er we've already had the supplementary report outlining the subject on . er but we subsequently had er comments from County Council er Royston Town Council and Council and I don't think it will affect your decision because they're all full, these courses, with one or two minor changes. Mr Chairman, I didn't get that last the last late one that most of what they're saying is, comes under the authority of . That's correct. Thank you. Agreed. Agreed. Agreed. Thank you. We now move on to item number eight, accounts Agreed. Erm, just that, first of all the time for . of the thought for the economical development policy panel er that is what I had agreed of er, I will just draw your attention to suggested resolutions on page four of the second report in the series. Thank you. Mr Chairman I'll try and be as brief as brief as possible the economic development strategy programme for nineteen ninety four, ninety five has been reduced in the light of the review of the activity concerned with the prosperity and consultation and with widely increased organisations and public agencies. I think we found as I say there are work demanding which is probably the nineteen nineties are an increasingly well educated, skilled and flexible workforce responsible for it's services policy and safety environment, the strategy in programmes for those page twenty one . Erm moving forward planners for completing in brief by consultant on a special programme, making your recommendations to the Policy Committee Hertfordshire Development Fund and providing an industrial and employment strategy in the structure plan for this kind. Erm we have had some success in this year and we have, hope that we will have similar success in the future. With the need to consider further process in Hertfordshire Development Fund as well as the by the strategy of ninety five, ninety six. Er and any process that will be the fund will be brought to the next meeting of the committee. Erm, erm the first, finally liked to add that erm my personal thanks to all those who have taken part on the panel I've found it immensely enriching and have been . one of the best panels I've ever been on. Erm, I'd particular like to thank working with the officers, boys you make me sweat. The, erm, we've had erm covered an enormous amount of ground erm so erm and the other people I'd like to thank cos I think we have established an extremely good relationship with the Hertfordshire er and everybody comments throughout the country that what a good relationship Hertfordshire has. It's something to be enormously proud of and we are attempting to involve everyone er say in Hertfordshire er in this important area and Hertfordshire is I say, what it's all about. Thank you Mr . Thank you Chairman, could I erm move the er well it's a slight adaptation of the erm suggested erm on page four erm, by the, er near the beginning, so it reads that that er comma noting continuing high rates er sorry high erm levels of unemployment in Hertfordshire. Er the County Council demonstrates that in five years the Hertfordshire erm etc , erm now I think Chairman we do have erm a pretty good strategy into the consultation rather better than the one for the erm current year which was started erm by the previous erm administration. I agree with Mike that the panel has been and er he is and will continue to do, erm I am sure, erm and, and that think certainly it will apply to, ought to be extended so that it won't need staff, er to be need during er nineteen ninety four erm and we wanted to, to note the continuing high levels of unemployment er on this side we believe the County Council should have an economic purpose strategy anyway, this should be a very important part of it's strategic there, the strategic planning role. Erm and so even if we had a full employment situation, we would still need an economic bonus strategy and I know the Conservatives won't agree with that, they were very reluctant the last administration to think about economic developments at all but, er eventually they realised the recession was quite er, quite serious. Well erm I know there's enough people around, the Prime Minister is trying to tell us that the recession is over and so is the Chancellor, well yes, unemployment has now gone under forty thousand within Hertfordshire, it's under forty thousand just. Er rather than being erm over er at forty thousand, for that we are, are pleased that the extra erm people is in work, but nevertheless we still have this very high level and we have a problem given the restructuring of the economy, I'd better shut up because my colleagues er Chris and Jane are going to talk about erm another closure intending closure and yet more redundancies again er, it happens in Hatfield. These things are still erm happening and we've still got some major problems. Er we think it, er should be, you know drawn to the public's attention, government's attention that we cannot tolerate within this county, this high level of unemployment that we've got, and we're gonna do our damndest as a County Council to do what we can I know there is in order to, to attack that particular problem. Thank you Mr . Second of your er . Er yes, erm thank you Mr Chairman. I noted Charles 's expression of disgust on the word unemployment, I believe tommorrow er the Government are going to introd er, are going to er produce new figures showing a drop in unemployment generally. Er I notice the government also talk about job seekers these days as opposed to people who are unemployed but for those who get up early in the morning or raise their head off the pillow as I do, see the business news on half past six on er B B C 1. Er I was being told this morning by not the Government that of the twenty million employed in this country, at least a quarter has been affected, has been affected by the disturbances in, in employment in recent years, so it doesn't matter you see whether your gun shot massage the figures. Whether they take people on a course rubbish, rubbish whether they send people on a course, whether they send people on a course because they're long term unemployed and having finished the course then don't get a job but they are no longer long term unemployed. They start again as newly unemployed. That sort of thing and the number of people waiting to get on a course. It is a disturbing thing and Brian in this short amendment drew attention to the high levels of unemployment. There are people not working, there are people who have been trained, there are people who have worked and have been trained. trained and nevertheless it is a disturbing thing and the development of this County has to do, not only with businesses succeeding and also with people who are actually making those businesses work and the only way you can do it is by having people employed doing useful things. Useful things for the community and not wasting their talents doing futile things. Thank you Mr Mr . Just a small point on this amendment, er the forty thousand figure we should be aware could be a Conservative figure. Er with a small C, a large C as well erm it belongs to as well. Er I'd refer members to the report that the International Labour Organisation brought out a week before Christmas. Now the I L O's isn't some shabby left wing organisation. Erm if it is I wish the Ford Motor Company gave as much money to the Labour party as they do the I L O but one of the points they made there is that in their opinion the unemployment figure in Britain is approximately four to four and a half million people because of the way the figures are worked out and the goal post of working have been changed by successive Ministers of Employment since nineteen seventy nine. was the first . Er and since then we have come up with finding other ways to massage the figures downwards. We, I am sure, would all agree that the figure, whether it be forty thousand, sixty thousand, seventy thousand is far too high er and this is why it's important for this County to have an Economic Development Strategy. Thank you Mr . Do you wish to make a resolution? Oh do you mean now or resolution in total or, or separately. Chairman are being er witness to er a separate resolutions? Yeah. Yes . Erm apart from Mr Chairman sir. Chairman Michael started off on a nice tripartisan note which er I think we on this side er did appreciate and it's true that this panel er has agreed a great deal, covered a lot of ground and er I think er avoided the sort of er, er controversy etc., etc., was which we're now caring now we are arranging in practical groups does mean the Labour groups has introduced a sound note er Brian started off by saying that the Conservatives er were not interested in an economic development strategy, er I must point out that and this activity derives from the local government managing act nineteen eighty nine, and by the present Government. Erm the Labour Party is absolutely furious that unemployment goes down in this country and they keep trying to say to the public that it's all hooey and, and, and, and the figures are distorted etc., etc., The fact is unemployment is going down, we are overcoming the recession, er faster than any other member of the er European Community or the European union as it's now concerned and, and these are the facts but having said all that, we on this side er certainly support a continuing strategy whether we'll er have to continue spending money at this level, er I don't know, hopefully er the, the recession will be overcome and the spending can be reduced, but the strategy we believe. In pursuance of the ninety nine Act er where we would we ought to continue to support. Thank you. . Mr Mr Er I'm sorry, I wa I wasn't gonna come in on this but er I've heard rubbish from Mr and I'd like to ask a question. No that's to do with item number nine, er sorry item seven. try to clear it up. No you, this was a criteria and when George said that the figures are massaged erm Mr shouted out rubbish. . I'm, I'm, I'm He usually says rubbish that's what he says . I was made redundant when I was fifty eight by Welwyn Garden City when er Welwyn Garden City that's er I was unemployed. Two years later when I was sixty and four months I was made redundant quite happy. Erm I've written umpteen letters and never got a job since. So I'm telling you Mr that I'm not unemployed because according to the Government figures I am not. Over sixty you do not get included in the statistics which makes it bloody stupid. and they can put that on the recorder but I've been told for the last two and a half years by this government that I am not unemployed. Now if you have got any comments on that, tell my wife that and she'll teach you some Anglo Saxon. . And can I just comment on one point by Mr , he said about they've been using the local government erm housing Act. They resisted using that until last year, so let's get the facts straight. Thank you Mr Chairman. Miss . Just saying br , just saying briefly er Mr I, I had something I do find it most of the time we do find it very instructive and certainly the strength of the economic development strategy is about the partnership and all those partners contributing their particular field of interest and that's I think is . I just wanted to s erm congratulate er whoever it was and put together the curriculum er programme which secured the three quarters of a million pound for all those which will I, I think I can understand extremely competitive and I would like to erm give credit to there because that will be enormously for the business which will give proper jobs er which is er very useful to the environment and, and, and really just to record erm that, that particular er success. Thank you so much, I wonder if now we can move on Mr Well I was going to a ask through you Chairman er Bob if he really is concerned with and not interested in this re-generation why he put five hundred thousand pounds into the budget? With a lot of pressure on you, and in fact you intended to take it back again if you won the election. . . to make the point Mrs refers to all the work that's been done . and I would . from, from er the European Community or European Union erm, in fact Simon is sitting out there and I think this is the chap who've er really responsible for putting forward er, er on the County Council side the bid and er, er I think that our thanks ought to be extended. I was actually in fact going to thank him. . . I wonder if we can therefore erm take the latest amendment to solution which is inserted after that in line one, owing to the continuing high levels of unemployment in Hertfordshire. . Let's see all those in favour One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve, thirteen, oh thirteen, fourteen, fifteen,six , fifteen Sir. and those against? . those in favour of the Officer's Resolution as amended by the Resolution. . Thank you. I have now Mr to make his resolution. Yes thank you Chairman the er we could er put this resolution in at this stage because of the urgency of the er the matter. On Friday who operate Hatfield Aerodrome er announced that they will cease trading and the Airport will cease to be operational. Er we now believe, we now know there's at date of this list and the Airport will close will be April of this year, so there is urgency needed there. Er urgent action necessary. The main concerns we have are er two or even threefold. Firstly, we, the loss of jobs, er themselves employ a hundred and forty two people, there are a further one hundred and eight people who are employed in er periphery items and other firms on the airfield itself making two hundred and fifty, but this figure has doubled because of the imminent closure in March of Aerodrome and the number of companies who were going to transfer from these, and I hope transfer from these to Hatfield. Erm there is a need for a small airfield Hertfordshire. Er we had on the er structure planning policy within the joint needs of Development er Committee, er a presentation from , now one of the points made there in what was a brief proposal or what have you er point was made . was that and I quote we are here to create jobs , now in keeping Hatfield air ,air airfield open to some extent, we may be able to create jobs in that area. Hatfield has become a bl black spot because of the closure of , er the aerospace industry in the County has suffered gravely in the past few years and I think you will agree, the closure of at . Er at Hatfield and of course reduced working Aerospace at Hemel Hempstead. Now the reason we've asked them to talk to the government, government departments about this is to see what can be done. It could be that nothing can be done, but we ought to be seen to be taking action over this. It could be and I don't want to preempt any discussion that would take place, but it could be a solution er from the Hatfield site could be found in the same way as a solution was found by er Sunderland Council and er Cleveland County Council over the shipyards in er in Sunderland. Now what's happened, what would happen if we were to follow the same type of line there would be that the airfield would stay open as if needed a small commuter airfield. There is a need for a commuter airport to serve London. Er the communications from Hatfield, Hertford are first class into the centre of London er is an option that perhaps you can consider but the fact that we can also then look at the Sunderland example. The redevelopment of the er derelict factory site into smaller industrial units and making it er a form of want for a better phrase, enterprise zone where thanks to subsidies from the government and the E E C, we will look into making it rate free, reduced rents, etc., er increase capital allowances for companies going in there so you could attract the needed capital intensive industries that will meet the high tech need that we have the need to have to create high tech jobs. Of the forty thousand or whoever many thousand it is who are unemployed in Hertfordshire, a large number of people th those people are skilled. Usually skilled in the Engineering Industry. Er the new towns that Hertfordshire were built on were built on the banks of moving skilled engineers out of West London. Er and part industrial estate. Hemel Hempstead is a prime example, and also of Stevenage and Hatfield is also er, er a . So if we could look at those things and talk to the Government to see if it's possible, it maybe it isn't possible then that's a different argument but we should be seen to be doing something er to let this die on it's own will A, will deprive other people for odd jobs and in some cases I've met the representation two guys there who used their redundancy money for Airways to purchase er a small aircraft and are running a flying school. They had nowhere else to go because this is closed and as they've said you can't pay the mortgage on a single engine two seater aeroplane and you can't get rid of, to sell one of those things, there business in liquidation. We should see what we can do on this matter and expect another report back and then they actually can tell . Thank you. . Chairman before we . Er er Mr . Yes Mr Chairman erm I understand the motive behind this proposal resolution but I think the mover perhaps is unaware of what's actually going on and have to decide and so I would like to speak against this resolution and I think the constructive thing to do so we don't send the wrong messages would be to er I, I will move an amendment er and I will explain what I'm doing as I speak. This having early in the days this not be impossible to get it all typed up. Er if I may I'll speak and then I'll give you an amendment which I think will be more constructive than the proposed resolution. The London aviation did indeed make a statement last er Friday that they will cease their operation in April nineteen ninety four. Sorry, and erm that in their statement er they indicated that the hundred and forty two employees would be redeployed elsewhere in where possible. Obviously some of them will not be able to seek er alternative employment. What disturbs me about the wording of this resolution it's quite clear that it 's it has not been discussed with the relevant officers here and yet it seeks to instruct those officers to prepare a report. Does Mr know that the County Council's officers are involved as part of a team led by the District Council to redevelop on a medium to long term basis the entire site. This has been referred to frequently and the panel meetings where I've been present erm the authority has agreed that Council and what it's doing is to using a review of the District Planning Procedure is going to list this entire process working in partnership with Hertfordshire's own Organisation, County Council, the department of transport, and other relevant erm national and local government Organisations as well as of course with and are the owners of the site. Therefore, I do think the wording of this implies a lack of er, er of research and and erm the implication . of this, it says t a report detailing what assistance can be given to keeping the airfield open. Does Mr not know, er I think he does, because I've told him . that a major consultation has been going on in one is reminded of the earlier discussion about er St Albans, twelve thousand questionnaires have been sent out and there has been a magnificent response er something er something approaching two thousand have been received. Last night very late I was told that the draft of the, it must be a twenty page Officer Report, that will be going next week to the Economic Development Council of the District Council which happens to meet the same day as the County Council and the Economic Development Panel so if I can get a copy fast enough I will get one over here and that same week it will be formally preserved to the Planning and Transportation Committee. That report is a detailed analysis of public reaction to the questionnaire. And I think it would be absolutely important and vital that we don't and just as we said this morning said we wouldn't preempt and pre-judge the community of the St Albans District Council on the er on the transportation study. In the same way it is essential that we await the results of that questionnaire and that we discuss with the District Council the long term redevelopment of that airfield and so I think it would be more helpful in expressing our concern of course about the decision and version of it which I will admit came as a shock because my understanding was they would be there for two, three, or four years yet. Nevertheless a business decision has been made. I think it would be far more helpful if we had an amendment. Perhaps even if Mr and his colleague could agree to this that instead of instructing our officers, after consulting the relevant government departments I would say that after consulting the . relevant partners, these are existing partners which includes county council and government departments to prepare a report detailing us what assistance can be given to the er, er redevelopment of the site with a long term opportun employment opportunities. Erm quite deliberately leave out the reference to keeping the airfield open because we don't, you don't yet know the results of the of the consultation with the public. I happen to know it but I think it would be wrong of me to disclose it tonight er this evening. I think you should wait for that and don't make any presumptions about the future of the runway. I have to advise the information to the economic development panel which indicates from our survey that the report carried out last year by Consultants that the airfield, the runway in Hatfield makes only a very minor contribution to the economy of Hertfordshire. That information I have given to erm County Council Officers and therefore I think before you make any decisions you should erm examine that report and wait for the results of the erm public consultations. So what I am suggesting is that you don't accept this resolution and you accept a modified or amended version of it. Thank you Mr can I have a seconder for your amendment, Alex I'll second it for the time being. Er Mr . Well actually forget what to say well erm thank you Richard for erm putting forward a very touching case I am sure we all share the sympathy of the Hatfield further job loses, but there are major opportunities and we should not prejudge those opportunities as yet. Yes Mrs The, the Labour Party was seeking to actually to the value of the airfield. However, I don't, I mean I think it is very important that we actually re retain this actually at Harefield. That it's all very well to say to Consultants last year or some it, it won't even be very little value to the economy of Hertfordshire but the position changes with the closure of for example erm also the airfield has never not actually be marketed properly it could be marketed much better as, as, as it was to attract more, more executive business and more freight business, freight, airfreight is a greatly expanding business and there are lots of opportunities that this airfield would have in airfreight we've got erm buildings there we could have warehousing there to deal with airfreight. Heathrow has also put pressure on small jets that go to Heathrow by raising their landing fee charges, and that's more against . The City Airport is doing better but it's still not doing that well, there is a market for an airfield that would serve executive and freight business for North London and of course Hertfordshire, that airfield is needed. Elstree is not able to take all the aviation business that's been displaced for weeks that I know of and, and for Hatfield I've been notified by two people who are at present at Hatfield, one of whom is going to move to Stansted. Their jobs would be completely lost for Hertfordshire, you can't commute from Hatfield to Stansted and those people Hatfield . and working in Hatfield they will not be able to go to Stansted it, it, it all would finally so She was like a dog with a bone Oh I know wasn't she let it Yeah. go. Well you see especially as well with the typewrite we've got at the moment That's right, yes. I mean it's In fact as soon as I walked in I wasn't allowed to go to my desk until I promised her I would get the computer out first, before I did anything else. If you didn't get it out at that time it'd be half past eleven and she'd lose two hours. Martin wasn't very happy though was he when he came No. in the morning to you? Well she should have shifted it all up to yours I know She's supposed to have taken it off Yes. Ooh. I don't know if it would affect anybody in York. in there, Yes. I can't think, see Isabel's already got t quite a lot of scale two time She's scale two anyway. Yeah yeah. And she'll, she's one-off so I mean she'd never go to p No. anyway. Don't think she would, no. It would only be if somebody was off on long term sickness or Only when I keep getting her to do all this typing for me. Yeah but look at that in a week, I mean And look I mean she'd never spend two hours a week. forty percent of her time because she does it so quickly but er oh Being tied to reception though you see,J Julie's likely to do quite a lot because she's got to stay there so you've got to Yes yes yes yes. Rather than giving her any other jobs. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Erm Right so I'll erm sort of see what I can do with Julie. Quite nice I don't know if she's at the top of one yet I imagine she probably She will be yeah Yeah I'm sure she is. She will she's been Yeah. Yeah. here four years. Yeah. And I'm not sure, I can't remember which, I don't know whether she started on the bottom or the bottom I've a feeling she may be didn't start on the bottom actually No I don't think she did. Mm mm. No. so So it would take her two increments into scale two. Mm mhm. Which you know is an advantage in other ways as well I think, because if you know she's being paid scale two you know other responsibility comes with it as well Yes. That's right. even though she's getting it for the technology. Yeah. Mm. I, I, I mean I do think that w what we would have to do is, is if people started making inroads into two via this route, it might mean then we'd get to the point where it wasn't going to cost that much more to enable other scale one people Mm. to do that. Because I still think this is very much discriminating on the, people like Val for example, I know she's got a little bit of scale two but I still think the reception is such a big responsibility Mm. and particularly Mm. in a, a big office like York. Mm. The thing is a couple of increments is not a great deal of money is it? you swing, you multiply it around the council it makes a difference Yeah but within an office Yeah it's Mm. I mean what do you get paid? A pound a week extra? Me? Yeah Yeah yeah. That's cos I'm only half time, I'd get two pound if I were Yeah full time. And you're Some pe some people would think it wasn't worth it, but erm isn't is it? Well if you look at it, if you look at it , if you look financially at it for responsibility and financial reasons and if you log down every bit that you spent doing admin assistant and E O then you'd say stuff this for a game of soldiers but you don't Mm mm. do it purely for that reason do you? Mm. In Oh no but if you look at the responsibility an E O hasn't got for scale three, why are we flogging ourselves to death on scale four? Oh but that's, that's the same for erm Kevin as well isn't it? Especially Yeah. when Kevin doesn't get paid overtime and careers officers Mm. m most of the careers officers that are on si scale six are taking more money home than Kevin is. Yeah it's true yeah. That's right you don't want to So it's just the organization . Doesn't make it right, no but situation so mm. Yeah. Yeah I suppose. No I was actually getting at a certain person that works for Trident that doesn't think it's worth extra hassle for a hundred and eighty pounds more a year. Yeah and it's, the difference between that is, isn't it that somebody that's in the post will not give as much as another person in the same post Mm. but what can you do? Mm. It's down to that individual isn't it? How they view Yeah. you know if that person in project Trident's got a much easier for her scale four than you Mm. well I mean there's, the, the other thing is the differential around the, the county cos there was a time when when waiting for Sheila to retire cos whe I'm gonna love one member of staff to look after. when the area career She's only got one to appraise so she can only have one I wouldn't let her appraise wonderful job. Erm Yeah you'd have to work for Deborah then Yeah. You'd have to work for Deborah you'd love that. I know and to be quite honest with you the other day You don't have to work with Deborah I'm not sure between her and Tony, Tony's so busy looking into he's going, so busy looking on what's going on behind the question that's being asked, that you never answer the question that you're being asked in the first place. me as well actually I did one of your tricks Sue I mean we'd done something I mean is it Li Liz went in and said, and would you like to report Tony on what you've discussed, and I just spoke he never even got a got chance to say one other sentence I'm just doing a . Taking over Me that didn't know what to do I wasn't gonna participate. Yeah well. Oh I know what I was gonna quickly go through the, I was going through the training wasn't I? So there's the Yeah. technology bit then there was managem was identified that m management training was needed for all line managers. Erm yes so there's a variety of things there. Careers librarians, that was quite a good point but we've actually t got a group of professionals working within the service, we need to make sure they have access to other professional librarians and staff development that would be Mm. appropriate to them. Rather than just appropriate to the careers service. Mm. Mm. Erm but the more general training er sort of across the board that came up for staff in general was certain things that are, are bound to happen for example on course training will happen. Update on H E C G software, negotiation skills, train the trainers, group work, resources, presentation skills, interviewing skills,m marketing our guidance, adult update for E Os, the with the unemployed, employer work, personnel skills, recruitment and interviewing skills, employer legislation update, summaries of guidance, careers guidance agreements, management training, business financial management, supervisory skills, supervision of probationers, appraisal interviewing skills, careers education and guidance for careers officers in equal opportunities. I asked Liz specifically to put on the list this one that I try trying to do with E Os, the group work one Mm. Yes it's being asked all the time. Because Alan said it would be I know. And er Alan keeps saying, you can do it but you have to wait to the next programme coming through and I specifically asked for Liz to put it on. Now I'm not sure come under that you think? I don't know In fact we've had a couple of meetings recently Kevin with, with erm the employment office looking at, at their changing role Yeah. and certainly from the, the first meeting that we had, which is only a month ago, that was one of the things, one, one of the outcomes Yeah. was that erm Jane erm has put down that take place and your name and I said Mm. I would, I would help Mm. if it was necessary Mm. So I Did she do me a note to, to raise that we've got a follow up meeting erm about this training. I think it's Cos I've had er you might have had the west one to me again, well not just recently but just er er a month ago saying, is it still on, is it still going to happen? It, it, it Yeah it minuted for Yeah it was minuted for the Have you got a date? We've not no. No Alan's not given me the go ahead really to, to do . I mean he sort of Yeah. said it'd be for April you see next budget. Right. Yeah it was the two training aspects that came out of that meeting one was That's right it was all training in C V workshops and the other one was presentation skills and group work skills Oh yes yes. That's quite a good idea isn't it? Cos we have to Yeah. give that advice all the time. Mm. Th yeah well what we said Yeah. was we wanted Yeah. something you know Good idea that. if we're going to get into helping people to draw up C Vs then we need training in that area . Job search skills. Training, yeah yeah. Well that, yeah good thinking. Because it is, it's very very There's a handout there which we talked Mm. about an er And said that's one of the things we can do. do Th these are things that we need to look at Yeah. And if we can do it we need to be So that e E Os need to be looking at how to help with interview Okay. Mm mm. techniques Yeah. er what, you know how, what to expect. Yeah. Erm use of computers er how, so al help you filling in job search, so these Yeah. are the sort of things Yeah. that also saying you Yeah. know we'd like Good. training on those. Mm. Erm and in group sessions and also with E T you know training for work as well. Training for work as it Yeah. is at the moment. Er presentation skills Yeah. much wider role Mm. in So there's quite a lot. Sounds about right. Follow up meeting's next Friday, a week today and I've written it in my diary so I'll make sure I bring it up then. Can I just say that er Ray phoned me up the other day and he said er, would you be prepared to take part in probationers', er regional probationary sort of training day er which is at coming up er in a few months time, to give erm presentation skills er I part of what we were doing, erm but just those O H Ps that we did on that part. And that was quite interesting. Mm. Erm so I said, okay. Have to go along and sort that out. He did mention to me now I'd forgotten until Mm. you mentioned it but he Yeah. had mentioned to me actually Yeah. It was purely just on that part because Ray, Brian was doing other w other, in fact group work skills Mhm. Mm. the other bit to, to them and there was Yeah. a couple of sessions purely on the actual, no public speaking that's right, it was actually public speaking rather than Yeah yeah. Have you worked with Brian before? I dunno, his name's so familiar. See you See you , bye. He's alright. Right. I didn't really think it was going to take me very long to go through that, sorry. But I mean it brought up a lot of things that we perhaps It did, yeah. needed to talk about anyway didn't it? So we'd already touched on haven't we? By taking Yeah. away stuff, yeah. Right, are we going to finish at half twelve? Mhm. Yeah, sounds reasonable. So if we try and tackle the staff appraisal, at least Yeah, before lunch. right, no problems. This sorted out staffing for the office Diane? Yes Right, we've been postponing this discussion, I know, erm because we've not sort of felt er we've not fitted it into previous meetings. Just to sort of update on where we're at with it. I've been done and Bill's been done. Kevin's been done but I've not given him anything back in writing yet, which I've go to do. Erm next stage, have you done Diane or Sylvia ? No have I arranged a day with Sylvia but then I The day is set. realized Right. we didn't have the yellow booklets so Ah and I've not brought them with me, they're in my office, sorry. I said I'd bring them today didn't I? Yes. And I But I might have to cancel it on what, what Deborah's said. Yeah. Why? What does Deborah ? Cos they've not been trained yet. Yeah, and then she did keep speaking Cos they've not had a three hour training sessions. out very strongly didn't she Sorry,th they? Who's they? They were supposed to come back to the offices and do a three hour training Mm training session with all staff. Remember? Well it was talked about but, oh wouldn't be us cos we went to the Yes Yeah. no we had to do it training. Yeah but we've got to do the training. We were We were trained to train. Yes yes but what I meant is it doesn't stop us being No. No. No Sylvia wasn't there. Can't be appraised then but I mean Yeah no. I Yes to my next thing Can I have a little plaster please? Oh what you done? Just a paper cut but Ooh. I'd go home if I were you. Not my office . classification is stupid so all altered and all plasters the numbers are changed and Oh no What are you telling me for? Have a bandage is okay? I don't need a bandage. Are you allergic to plasters? If there's not a little one there I've got a You see a thin one? Just a thin one. I've got a little one. Do you want to do the hanky? No that's alright. Cos I've got erm maybe we need some more Do you want a dirty hanky, wrap round. No. Cos I hurt my finger the other day. We're keep anything here now. No but technically Oh I know technically. You are allowed to keep them but in a centred box. What? Plasters. I know but where else do keep 'em know where they are? Cos the allergic reaction not allowed to Well plasters are not part of a first aid box. You should not So the only thing you've got is something just to wrap round. Oh I know. That's about it. useless but I mean they should come out of somebody's drawer under their own personal supply. Yeah same with paracetamol. Along with the paracetamol. Yeah if they have a reaction Bottles and bottles it's their own fault. It hasn't come out of a first aid. Office, yeah. Yeah. Well we unofficially have paracetamol in there but that's why As long as it's not in that green box it doesn't, they have been to check on us I mean I think all staff have their big bottles in their drawers somewhere. Yeah we did but a while ago Health and Safety yeah. co couple of years of ago Safety inspectors yeah. Well I don't know who put that box of plasters in there. No I don't. Jackie husband's doing it, I'm sure that we'll Yes yes. all be investigated. Yeah they can actually just turn up and say let's have a look at your box. Right if we can get back to the appraisal. Oh we'll take it out after. Erm Husband got a job? Mm. Yes, training to be a factories' inspector. Oh right. Mm. Right, yeah i I've got a, I need to set a date with Catherine, an appraisal and then we'll be, are you not looking forward to it? I am not. It'll be good, it was good wasn't it Kevin? Actually I, I, I thought it was fun, yeah. It's just that I dunno I mean the ones I've Yeah. so far had Yeah. got erm, well we never got anywhere, I never got anything back and it was just a total, I was a guinea pig Well we do get a positive f I think a I think actually who you have 'em with like with Sue I mean I was quite positive about this er I can understand you sort of just w who did you have 'em with before? my two best friends Jeff and Peter. That's right Yeah. so they're, I don't, I have a f you know they're I dunno. Well i I mean I think I certainly feel positive based Mm. on the experience so far really Mm. and What I'm sorry I switched off a couple of minutes ago Of, of, of the, of the We're talking about C E T. What do you think? No appraisal. Appraisal, yes. Yes. Yes I found it useful, yeah And you written your targets for me yet Bill? No I've started them though. Right. I've started I've not written I know but I've started Thinking about it okay. Well I have, I have a problem with spending three hours training staff in the office. I mean let's face it it's not realistic. Kevin and Bill and I have discussed this, we don't think it's realistic. I mean whether we think it's necessary or not is another matter. Yes t I can't see that happening Everybody's supposed to have a go at How appraising somebody and being appraised so they can appreciate what the situation is. Well I mean I did those pilot appraisals Mm. here last year Well yeah cos everybody's gone through it here. Yeah. I mean Yes we had quite a lot of pilot Yeah. in York. What we'd proposed And me what we were going to propose was that K when Kevin, Bill and I met and we, we talked about this we said, let's prepare, I volunteered actually, to prepare a summary sheet Yeah. of the main points that that training would cover. And that we would issue those summary sheets at a staff meeting and we would go through it at a staff meeting and that that, probably that was as much as we could do Yeah. by way of ensuring staff knew what was going on and had something by way of training. But Mm. managed it. And Skipton. Would they have had the three hour thing? Yes. Yes. Away from the office as well wasn't it? night out I agree I'm, was winding you up. I mean that because Deborah kept going on and on and on about this three hour thing didn't she? All the time she kept coming back to it. When you go and do your three hour training sessions, didn't she? Well the point she was trying to make was that the, it d the, the appraisal interview would be so s so easy because the staff will know exactly what What to do you know so what be these sort of and what to expect and what queries and barriers that you're, you're bringing out. It's going to be all so smooth because they've had three hour training. But as soon they've had an appraisal then they will know what it involves. Yeah. And because you're having the pre-appraisal thing Yeah. it's to set it all in context they understand before they come That's right. I mean that's like the, really the training isn't it? For them. But surely if they got the yellow book and had, we sent them off in, in a room to actually read that book. Mm. Three hours. Mm. T No Mm. but instead of try and fit it Mm. while they're doing something Yes. else but give everybody an hour off Mm. their rota to go and read the Yeah. book somewhere quiet. And as you saying a summary sheet and Mm. a quick half hour's Mm. any questions. That should be enough. Should be enough for anybody. Yeah. You see my, my point was I'd, I mean I kept saying to her, has this got to take place? And she kept saying, yes, and I kept saying, in every division? And she kept saying, yes. So whatever we, we'd said to her she was coming back all the time wasn't she? That this had got to take place. Cos only You mean she'll be gunning for me then? But because that I mean that b Harrogate. No she'll be gunning for everybody else because only Harrogate and Skipton But we can say also that the we're not new appraisals th we've been through the pilot Mm. I mean Yeah. we can use That's right. that argument to Mm. to support I think for . I'm just say But was it only those two that had done it or was it No Scarborough's not done it. And who's Northallerton Well I asked for those I get there the impression that Northallerton spend half of their time in staff meetings so I'd be surprised Mm. if they'd not done it. We asked our employer, our employment officers' group yesterday Mm. and Phyllis hadn't had the opportunity to discuss anything with a lot of careers officers meetings then. Oh right, well definitely not employment staff because they've not even managed to even she's not even managed to show it anybody. Mm. Well that makes me feel a, a lot better. Yeah it made me feel better actually because I had the same impression as you . Anyway. Anyway. When Bill and Kevin and I looked at how we could cope with appraisal in our division, the numbers didn't work out as badly at least as I thought they were going to originally. Erm the way that we see it is that I would appraise Kevin, Bill and Cath, initially and that, oh this is just York's isn't it? And that Bill appraise who are you going to appraise? The careers offices, Sylvia and Diane here. Right. We actually said Rosy as well but Rosy lo probably have left Selby Yes. by the time I get back to it. Yes. Right. And I did Charlotte eventually. You could always do her first so that that doesn't That's a good idea Cath. Well Remember that. I don't er I don't see any relevance in that because she's not, you can't set targets for No. her that I'm Yes. not going to be responsible for. No, you're right. But Bill's going to do Charlotte? Yeah, when she's been here long enough. Yes. But you don't do anybody until they've be here for six months. And you don't do any Six twelve She down the other day didn't she? No it's six months. Alright. And you don't I wasn't here Kevin I missed it. and you don't bring do anybody that's in er She's coming down next month. C G part two. So that eliminates a few people you see. Or temporary contracts . Or temporary contracts yeah. Well that, that eliminates Not that quite a few. quite a lot at the moment but hopefully won't shortly. So when we went through it, Kevin was going to do all of the careers officers in York but didn't need to do Mary because she's part of the adult team and therefore Jane and Julie will have to sort her. Thank God for that. Won't happen to j Wouldn't have to do Norma because she's a probationer, wouldn't have to do Denise. Cos we don't know what her situation's going to be. Not really worth it is she? And that if Cath did all of the clerical staff and then eventually Monique and Mary once they become in service long enough, oh they probably are already aren't they? I think they are, yeah. Yeah. Well Mary and Monique. But that I, Kevin would stick with the careers officers cos it fits in very well with his team leader role with the careers offices in York. So that I wouldn't get involved with careers officers I'd actually make a jump and that I would do the three wise monkeys and Hilary. The three wise monkeys . They sit in a long line in York, yeah? We don't have to mention names. The one thing that No you don't have to I've seen them. does worry me and I don't think any provisions have been done for it and that is Isobel. Right. And I think it would be very useful for her to have an appraisal. Oh yeah. I mean having great Oh yeah. difficulty in working out whether she's understanding what we've said now in the way of instructions until it comes back. But you're down S to do her. So what sort of provision do you mean Cath? taught her how to do. Write it down we're supposed to do. Does she sign or not? I'm not sure Cos we could have somebody in to help that's all I'm thinking if she says yeah I'm sure you could get something from Mm mm mm. Well that's why I'm asking what do I do? social services. Mm. But I don't think she is very good at signing, I don't think it's her main way of communicating. She's quite good at lip reading. It'll just take you longer to do. It's a it's, it's more you understanding Because she I can't understand what she says to me. No that's the trouble. That's the embarrassing Yeah. thing. I can't understand a word. Mm. Well you see as part of the appraisal thing, if you get w w when we've done it so far we've got people to actually, and I did myself, one of the stages after the preliminary meeting is to complete a self assessment, or to go through some self assess assessments, self appraisal. Now certainly when I did it, I wrote some notes which I then talked through with Alan, Kevin wrote some notes which he then talked through with me. Now obviously if Isobel did that, she could write some notes in a form that was actually readable for you so that you could actually I mean I know the discussion would be more difficult but you would have quite a lot of information from her to go on. I wonder whether it might be useful to get somebody in from social services side anyway to help to identify some other problems that I'm having Yeah. perhaps and how you might overcome them. I think, I think she will probably have an aw she's a very bright girl, I'm sure she'd have an awful lot to contribute. Mm. Yeah. Mm. So but that might be one of the things that you need to look at I mean once sh she may have dif because of the difficulties in communicating with other staff and Mm. yourself. That might be a target to overcome. Yeah. And social services will be able to advise on that. Mm. I mean there must Mm. be a social worker for the hearing impaired. Jackie should be able to recommend somebody Yeah. erm that that could come up, come along to that meeting, with Isobel's agreement. Erm Or even to talk to Isobel specifically abo about that and h how to approach Yes. something like this Mm. so that Mm. they, you know, they could talk together perhaps, having been briefed beforehand and then maybe work out how to approach appraisal interview. I mean it's an issue that needs to be looked at anyway isn't it? Regardless of appraisal. Yeah yeah. With anything yes. Cos then the spin-offs, you know if we can get her to be able to communicate back to us Mm. it's great. Erm It's certainly, the appraisal interview is a good opportunity to, to address the issue of because communication is difficult Mm she's not she's being under-utilized in a sense. Yeah mm. It's not pulling it out just out of thin air That's right. it, it's Yeah, I mean contacts Mm. Yeah. I mean I, I, I think maybe Cath if we sit down and, and talk that through beforehand. I mean I'm obviously happy to sit down and talk through any of it beforehand anyway with you. Erm and you might want to do that formally, you might a if you have pre-meetings with some of these people you might want to say that you are going to sit down and talk it through with me in advance ar and are they happy about that? But I mean it, we can talk things through in principle anyway just to think because you know until we build up Mm. more experience. But I you know hopeful I know that th th th quite a large and high numbers but what we agreed was if we were working on the basis of something like on one person every six weeks Mm. which wasn't an unreasonable sort of target, erm we would get through everybody we had to get through in a year. Other than the issue of Isobel are you unhappy with that? No, I don't want to do it but I mean I'm not I'm certainly happier than I have been about it if Mm. that's any help. I just want some help with these, writing these forms and target setting. Yeah. It's easier once you've been done. Actually it's easier once you've been done cos then you have an appreciation of what's to Well I think you know Yes I think you'll feel a bit better once we've done you Yeah. really. Mm. Yeah I think Because I, I didn't really The thing's I've had two attempts at me and I've never had any feedback whatsoever. All I did was spend my time tell telling them how they could do their job better. Mm. Mm. You know so I mean so I've never had a, it's been a bad experience for me, not a good one. Oh God,I can't cope with the pressure . And as far as in the appraisals I mean I found when I did the three s part staff and, and I was, it was that pilot and, and I know Mm. and I don't, don't know whether the forms were, I don't think they were quite as complicated as, as these but I found that I've got a if you want to borrow Well I've got copies of them all. It's easier now to be honest. Yeah I mean I felt once I got going, it just seemed to flow naturally. Mm. And, and it was, and even deciding on where the training needs were and writing them down and, and setting targets it, I don't know it just seemed to happen, erm difficult at all. The form complete is much easier than the the Is it? form you had to, that you had to Oh right. last time. Mm. As Mm. an individual you Mm. know what your needs are. Yeah. Yeah. It's much more clearer Yeah. than the previous Yeah. Yeah. one. Mm. Yeah. I think the other thing is it's very much an appraisal of the working relationship between the appraiser and the appraisee the way we're doing it. It's not entirely focused on the appraisee, you know cos I think Mm. you're talking as much a about y it's reflecting on you as the line manager, how much are you communicating with this Mm. person, Mm. what are you actually Yeah. failing to do that's making this person's job more difficult. Mhm. Should you be giving them more support? Should you be recognizing this need or this skill or this strength or whatever that you're Mm. not. Mm. And it's very much a two way thing. Yeah. In fact in some ways I feel I almost got more out of appraising Kevin and Bill than I did out of Alan appraising Mm. me. And I almost sort of Mm mm. you know it i it's Mm. so two-way. Yeah, yes. It's a lovely way of understanding how are, your staff are feeling and getting on. Mm. Yeah You know communication Right. wise, Yeah. at the end of it I, you know I felt mm well wh when I did the C Os and the pilot Yeah. I felt as though I understood their picture. And you do talk about things that you don't normally. C Os are probably more likely to open up and talk aren't they? Than Yeah. But even so even a bit of opening up and people like that. Yeah, but even a bit You see you're going to have all the extracting later on. Don't say it's a bad thing Yeah but Some people like to talk. If he said that Careers officers have verbal diarrhoea don't they,the other extreme aren't they? Let's be fair. Yeah but if, it's a structured discussion because they've Yes. done Yes. some preparation. So it's what they want to talk about anyway Yeah. If it Mm. doesn't, if it last half an hour They're not coming into it cold. This is, this is where Deborah will then go back, this is, comes into your three hour training so you won't have this problem cos they'll all have been, they'll all know that they're just talking about certain things. But they will because that's what you'll have agreed in your preparation meeting. You've got to prepare yeah you've got to prepare. The pre-meeting I think is really quite important. Mm. Yeah, you know. But we almost got down to saying the other day that probably need to have an action plan or a structure for the pre-meeting as well. You've go to know in your mind what you're going to talk about. I think Yeah that's more or less what she was Yeah. saying. The mental picture But once we've been through, once we've had our pre-meeting, Mm. it'll take all the mystery out of it. Actually it will. I, I mean Mm. th Ten minutes is all it takes. you'd be surprised. You can just That, that was one of the pitfalls she was saying wasn't it? That if you don't talk frequently to your staff on an informal basis, then there will be a mystery regarding appraisal. Mm. Because it it seems as if it's a mystery. And Deborah does talk frequently to W regulations does she? She was training Sue that said one of the pitfalls Disciplines was infrequent er informal discussions with your er Mm. with your staff so She just delegates the whole lot. I just, I talk to, often to some of them and not enough to others. To others. And I don't control that . never darken my door . Oh. Yeah. Mentioning no names. I mean we have no choice really, some of these things have to happen, you know it has to be done, Well that's, I mean that's what it boils down to. That's right. is going to happen, it's a question of whether we g go for three hours' training we I think we're agreeing that some sort of preliminary training is going to come forward but not necessary three hours. Yeah. I don't see how they can definitely say anyway, this is going to take No. guarantee lack of training Yeah. Exactly. I feel that people like Josie you know think they're quite easy what you want Yes yes. but I'm just saying. And if it ends up being a fairly low key thing i it doesn't matter. With other people No. it'll be Mm. Mm. I me going to be a significant event, well it extremes while That's right. Yeah. whoever I mean it's going to be a day's job isn't it? Mavis? If she comes with notes like that. Yeah. Well if I don't talk them all through five times there's something wrong. Yeah. But if you're int limited to only three subjects surely she No she ain't no there's no, there's no way Mavis'll just talk about three subjects. No. That's negotia I, I thought you were supposed to. No. Not at all it's negotiable. That's negotiable,talk about what It's true actually, yeah. I think you, I think what it's It's just that most people have got m quite a lot so it's a limiting factor. So you want to limit it. I think you need to set a time actually. The targets have been limited to three Cath, around three. Three or four. Yeah. Three or four. Yeah. thought that the work areas were s to, supposed to limit them because when you do the one next year in a year's time then you bring on board two more topics Other areas. and then the year after that two more topics. Well that's going to depend on Is a person's duties isn't it? Is that, yeah. I mean if, if, if Josie's main role is is, is, is say that then wordprocessing and, and, and typing, alright? Yeah. says it's target. Then, then really that, that's an area that you've got to concentrate on cos, Mm. okay she's got some time on reception as relief but the majority of work is n is not that varied is it? Mm. Is it? I would say that on reception is the one that probably needs more support let her down all the rest of it. Yeah in which case, in which case that's your, one of your motivations in talking to her. Mm. Say you'll actually negotiate that in, in the erm preliminary meeting Mm. and you sort of say, do you think it would be useful if we talked about reception because that's something y you're not doing quite as frequently but it's obviously, it must be difficult for you to fit in to that because you're not doing it all the time. Do you think it would be useful if we talked about that? And to be honest Mm. if she doesn't want to talk about that then you Yes I think she would do. you know I think she would do. But that's the sort of negotiation I think she has to be one of the easiest ones to do, I mean like with Kevin and Bill, we negotiated but even that we wouldn't talk about their professional work as a careers officer Mm. because that's really in a you know was far less appropriate. Yeah. Mm. We actually talked about the difficulties that it causes Combining them both. of combining the two things. Mm, mm. But we actually talked about things at an appropriate level. Now with careers officers obviously that'll sort of come into it Mm. more. I found it invaluable last time I was doing i b you know if, if you say to somebody y you know come beforehand with what you're doing well, what, where the difficulties are, what the obstacles are. And they came and you know I find it difficult here, here and here. I mean that was really valuable to understand that, cos Ian thought oh yeah that's something that we really have to address you know Yeah. because if someone else says that and then all of a sudden I didn't know this and now I know it. A y y it's really I, Mm. I felt I got a lot out of it. Yeah. Even though initially I thought, cor all this time where are we going to find it from? That's the two way Mm. thing you see Mm. I would a the difficulty is the perception of the person that Kevin appraised would be, well I told Kevin about this and, and nothing's happened. But in fact Come in. Kevin's perception has been increased and he and he does have a better understanding of that person's role, even though it might not be blatantly obvious to them that there, there's been an improvement in communications. I know it's what happens next, afterwards. It's difficulty Yeah. difficulty in getting back. But the good thing about follow-up is these targets something very tangible Mm. Mm. to follow up on. I mean I know in about four months' time I've got a meeting in my diary with Alan. That we're reviewing what progress I've made in the targets that I've set myself. That's good, that's good. Mm. Yeah. And I've not looked at them since I wrote them. But you know that you have to, you know you can't just But I know I've got to. ignore it and that you have to work on it and you have to Yeah. sort of really go along with the process. Which is good. Mm. So what sort of targets do you see yourself setting? I don't know I mean what wh We didn't really What, what are we talking about? Increasing the amount of interview you get through in a day? I mean what No, certain obstacles and areas where you feel you're not er giving, you know you don't feel as though you're doing it the best for whatever reason. Mm. You may set that as a target to try and work at it this way to overcome that or to do it better. Yes, say if you're looking at an E O that feels that they're really happy with the client group, and things like that that's fine. But for some reason they feel that they're not as hot on employer work or something like that, so one of the targets might be to get them more used to dealing with employers is to go out and see more, and to set time Mm. aside Yeah. for them to be able to that. So a lot of, a lot of the problems with some of the areas of the work is because you do it so infrequent it's not that you can't do it, it's that you feel Mm. Mm. incapable of doing it Mm mm. it's this fear, insecurity when you when have to do it, yeah. when you have to do it. Right, yeah. So one of the ways to overcome that is to set yourself a target to do more Mm. so that you become more Yeah. familiar with it. Mm. There's other that's right there's other things you can do though, like for example, I mean once you've identified Training. the target, yes it's, if any training comes up to do with work with employers, you as a line manager know that's your person that's got to Yeah. get on that training. That's the one. That's the prioritized Yes. Cos you have to negotiate But also an another target would be to identify, let's say a careers officer or a more experienced E O. Or just a colleague it doesn't have to be someone that's m just They may say someone that's more confident to go arrange Arrange to go out on an employer visit Mm mm. with them during the next two Mm. months. I see you see the way that they have And that you know fulfil a target, yeah. Yeah you're building steps towards actually meeting the need that you've identified. Mm. I mean my targets were, I can only remember two of them offhand. I'll perhaps remember the third one as I talk. One of them was to tackle the staff meeting problem in York. Erm and that you know I wrote to, I, I discussed that with Alan as a problem but then I took it away with the pro forma that says and you, now the target pro forma 's got columns you've got to fill in and I Mm. just, I thought Mm. it through myself. Then I met up with Alan and, and he read though it and challenged me on a few things and we changed one or two bits, but I've got my sort of target set out. And the other one was to strengthen the divisional management team. And by that I was looking at er things like discussing with Alan that I felt we were un under, had, had less management time than we should. So I've already begun to fulfil some of those things And, and write down on the target sheet. Wh it must have been hard? Yeah. I didn't find it particularly hard actually. So how can you in you know to increase . The only way you can do it is by pleading. So why do you fill in all the rest of them silly columns in? No no it isn't the only way you can do it. It's, it's by actually looking at, well I, in Bill and Kevin's appraisal I actually tackled it through their appraisal because we discussed, in quite a lot of depth, erm what their workload and ways in which they could change their workload Mm. to enable them to have more management time, like we're looking at trying to get them to reduce their work their case loads Mm. school case load work. Mm. With, with both of you we talked a lot about delegation and things that you were doing that maybe you shouldn't be doing, erm Mm. Yeah I think I've just got a mental block about writing them. It certainly doesn't come easy until you've got a bit of practice in it but Have yours I didn't find it as hard as I thought. have this discussion after you've had Yeah yeah. yours Mm. and then if your st Mm. you'll find that quite a lot of what you're saying is then seen Mm. and you can see that Yeah. it's not a major problem. I mean was quite keen Mm. you say that she wouldn't, she certainly wouldn't mind doing a follow-up document and Yeah. and target setting? Yeah. Yes she did and I think that would be quite useful for people. I think a lot of it's fear of the unknown though until you've done it, yeah. Exactly, Yeah. It is. exactly Yeah. it's fear of the unknown. Once you've done about five you'll be alright. And it's fear of the of the thing as well isn't it? Yeah. I think that's the other thing I mean Mm. we we're easy enough to say, right let's well we just don't get I i it the time. Mm. If you're gonna Well you've got to withdraw that time, you've Yeah. gotta make sure it happens haven't Yeah. you? If you've got to do this you've got Mm. to do it right otherwise it's Well that's right, that's right. I'm gonna have to do it Yeah. I'm gonna have to do it. Yeah. It, it Yeah . it may be one of the ways th that to get together and communicate that because it's set down as target you've got to do it so you will, you will set the time aside where it's easy enough to Mhm. say, oh well we'll do it a week on Friday and that week on Friday never comes. You, you can set as your tar as one of your targets to er you know just t t to sort of make it in smaller steps that you will have appraised two of your staff in th in Mm. the next six Mm. months. Mm. And you you know you could almost use the appraisal as an, as an area that you wanted to concentrate Mm. Yeah. It's not, it's not me it's the ones that you're seeing that are target setting for. Yeah. You feeling happy enough with the target setting to get acro Yes,. Yes. I think that's a good point actually and that maybe target setting is sort of a training that we ought to do with all staff, I mean and I don't know how much of that comes into this magic three hours. You know if part of that was target Exactly. relating Well it was. yeah it was actually, Was it? W was, yeah. It was b practising being an appraisee and an appraiser. Yeah. And setting each Er an other targets . Targets. I don't remember doing much of that on the day thing. Well we did didn't we cos sat 'em Yeah all. Ah yes you did cos I was with the, actually mine was quite a good Oh yes. group I got This is er Teresa and Liz were the three of us that were . Obviously we didn't, he can get a third when we can only get, when there were only two of us because there weren't enough, enough threes to go round and I mean Yeah So I must admit Mm. I must admit that was quite good cos she'd got Liz who was Mm. e she was used to putting ideas forward as well. I think Teresa felt very much as well that she could have done with more training on target setting and things like that. It, it depends on what you've done before as well. This smart thing is really useful for target setting, to bear that Yes. in mind. Yeah, yeah. And you know you go back over what you've written and say, is it specific? Can How can I measure it? Is it really you know realistic? Can I actually Yeah. achieve it? Mm. Mm. Is it actually gonna help me do my job better? Mm. And have I put a timescale on it? And if you've done all of those things Mm. then you've got a really good target. Yeah cos if it's not achievable it's pointless setting it That's right. in the first place isn't it? Yeah if any of those things fall down you know that That's right. Mm. Yeah. Yeah, that's, that's a very, yeah. I think that's really the key Mm. to, to target Yeah. setting. And at least you've got the questions. What, what do I need to do? And who, who can help me? How will I know when I've done it? How long will I allow myself to achieve it? Who ne who else needs to know about it? They're the sort of things that you've got to know. answer those questions Yeah. as you put the target forward, yeah. Another thing that did come up at that training day the other day was that we all need a, a, a, anybody that's going to do any sort of appraising will need to know what the erm training programme is Yeah. for next year cos if somebody asks for a specific training Mm right. Mm mm. you say oh yes you can have it and then you look on the training and it's not there I know no I know that's, yeah that's right er then that's a problem. I had that problem last time. It's a bit of a chicken and egg thing really. Yeah. Mm. Because we had a long discussion about training needs, audits and all this sort of thing. Whe whether Alan should write out and ask everybody and we said, oh no people have done that ad nauseam and they'll only write back and say, well I've done this before and you've still never listened to me. Mm. And we thought we knew enough about, at the moment there are still a lot of needs that people had already raised that had not been addressed. So once Alan gets his er I Yeah. think after our meeting next Friday he'll, he will issue a dr a programme Yeah. so people will have that by the time you get Yeah. round to doing individual Yeah. staff. You've got to look at the other positive thing as well though that if it comes out as a target and there are specific training needs there throughout the Mm. county. You know say if you've got a number of E O saying well I would like training in this Yes. even if you have to say to them, well I'm That's right. sorry it's not available at the moment. It's highlighting what everybody is I think what Alan will probably do, that's right I think probably Yes. Yeah. Yeah. in about six months' time Yes. what Alan intends to do is write to all line managers and ask them to go back and review their appraisal erm documents for every member of staff they've appraised. Erm and write a summary of all of the training training needs. needs that have Mm. cropped Yeah. up. Because even if somebody said I would like that training if it's not available you can't just turn around and say well tough it's not available you can't Mm. have it. Mm. You've got to note that this training, you would like this training That's right. unfortunately it's not available at the present time. At the moment. Yeah. But Well that's what I did wasn't it? When, when I did those Yes. appraisals last year. Yeah. Mm. We still didn't get, yes said I, I will put forward Yes and but we still didn't get it. But yes you di you did put it forward. No that's right I I think, I think the other thing is that if there is a need that's, that's quite common erm you know talking amongst ourselves, I think sometimes we're gonna have t just do more within the division, you know I, I, Yeah. A something I've realized recently is that because I've sort of, in a sense the C S M T side of things that I, because that's a big area for me, I tend to think county wide about everything Mm. that I do. Mm. and I think that's right but it means that things are more difficult to achieve in a lot of ways. I think I ought to start thinking, well never mind if everywhere else isn't doing it. Let's Yeah just get it right ourselves here first. Mm. Yeah. And I think you know that, that if th that we have got the skills between us to actually tackle some issues locally Mm. as long as we can get the staff together to do it . Mm. And that we can try and meet some training needs locally. Oh I'm sure we could. And particularly things like linking people up with other members of staff. Mhm. You know getting employment officers to go on a visit with each other or with careers officers or whatever. And meeting training needs on an individual basis. Yeah. Rather than having to get people together in a Yeah. central venue every time Yeah. and seeing training only in that light really. Yeah. A thing that I've heard from a few directions recently is erm the thought of work shadowing. Yes. Actually going along with a careers officer Yeah for a whole day and the careers officer Yeah. Yeah. a whole day That's part of Alan's new induction programme. That's quite a nice idea isn't, yeah. Yeah you know try for a better underst total understanding of Mm. of each of us needs Mm. Yes. Yeah that's nice, I like that. I, I think, I think that one of the major employment office because Yeah. they feel that C Os don't, don't understand them and they're probably Mm. I think that Won't admit it but they probably don't know all mm. that there is to know about There's a lot more mystery about what the careers officers do cos they don't do it in front of the noses of the employment officers I, I think that's But that's a good, it's a form of training that should Yeah. be easy to organize. That's right. Yeah, yeah. Mm. And I said this the other day that's Yeah. one of the major problems, people don't understand the other person's role. Mm. So they don't say you know it, it's like in York you'll have it worse than somewhere like here cos we can see the careers officers running around Mhm. Yes that's right. so we'll say, so we'll say to them do you want a hand, and they will also see Yeah. The C Os may actually be working for a week or two and never see an E O. Yeah. But they can, they can Yeah. also see that sometimes, even if we wanted to help them Mm. i the Yeah. logistics of it are just Yeah. impossible. Yeah. Whereas you don't have that, you'll probably have the careers officers walking in when your E Os are having a cup of coffee and they think,well they do sod all . Mm. And then you'll walk into the careers officers when they come in from school and they go, ah Yeah. and the E Os walk in and they think, That's right . they do sod all . Yeah. So you've got this thing It's true . that nobody understands what the other person's role is Absolutely Yeah yeah. Come in And that, that's the most awkward Yeah Trouble is once you And when you're very busy Don't worry. and you, it's quite easy to switch your mind on you know would it become insular to your own needs Kevin don't you? Yeah Either, either, either sort of feel that the other is not as busy as they are. Exactly. I've And it's The last student we had in er in York Mm. I had difficulty in fitting in Alison. any time to talk to her. Mm. And she ended up spending, it was the best part of the day with me and she came with me to a couple of meetings I went to. Ah right, that's good. And it was more like shadowing me. Yeah. Mm. And I thought at the time, oh I'd not done anything about it, Mm. I think I'll say to yourself and to Bill, students in future Nice idea that. I'll identify a day, Mm. or a co or a half day Mm. that the student can spend with me and I'll That's great. try and talk to them in you know in the car or whatever and Yeah. in between. Yeah. But they'd actually get a Yeah. much better view. Yeah,I like that. And it's not taking you as much time either. No that's right. No manage to get on with your work And to some extent I think we can do that with new, new In fact staff as well. I'm wondering whether we ought to do that with trainees anyway. In Yeah while they're just you know whatever Do a bit more whatever happens today you're with that person. Yeah. Yeah. And similarly Jackie You reckon? Mm. you know who Mm. it must, she gets a lot of demand doesn't she really? Yeah so I ask an E O, a C O, Jackie and all the different sort of sorts Me. of people in the office to do, to offer me one day for work shadowing a Yeah. student. Yeah. And they just work shadow for two weeks. Yeah. And bingo. Mm. interesting that isn't it? Yeah. Well yeah Oh because if you've got somebody, again like you say to er some of the students that say, can we come in on some of your interviews. Mm. That's fine if you say yes, but your client comes in, you forget all about Joe Bloggs sat at the back Yeah. Mm. Mm And before you realize it you're halfway through your interview, and you think, Oh God . Yeah. Whereas if they're with you. Mm. Mm. And they And they watch you through lunch they Mm. they watch you writing up, they watch you doing all the other discussions and stuff and they just sort of go with you. Yeah. As opposed to going in for just the interviews. That's right. Mm. Actually that would be a better representation of what it's like to be the A I was going to say they'd probably get a more realistic Yes they would. And I think it's less Yeah. demanding on on Mm. the people, because you know normally if a student comes to see me, I sit down and have an hour and half's discussion Mm. with them. Mm. Mm. Which is not perhaps a very good use of time. The only trouble is when you're doing your administration and some days you know y you may have to really get stuck in Yeah. and what are they gonna do, just sit and watch you Yeah. writing? Mm. You feel That's right. yeah. You've got to pick your day. that the day you choose Yeah. got to be more active Yeah. rather than writing. So you've been robbed, raped and swindled, the question is were you asking for it? and what are you going to do about it now? Crime they say doesn't pay, well you may have your own views on that but certainly across the breadth of variety of criminal activity we might agree that crime almost always hurt someone, more or less, we have a system designed to cope with the effects of crime and to deter future criminals, but it doesn't seem to be making crime a thing of the past, so how good are we at dealing with crime, tonight's hundred women have a broad range of experience as victims, law women, perpetrators, police and others, we'll be hearing their views on the system and how it might be changed and asking why are we all so fascinated by fictional crime from Cell Block H to Agatha Christie. Lots to cover so lets start and let starts with er, having it done to you, would you say that you've ever been a victim of crime?, button one for yes, button two for no, have you been a victim of crime? Er now this is interesting because this is not a representative cross section of er, of women in Scotland, but its an average gathering together, not chosen for any reason other than some are interested er, some come from er no particular background, but sixty two of this hundred have said yes, they have been a victim of crime, those of you had said yes, what, what, what experiences have you had that made you say yes? Er, I've been robbed and swindled, er I was burgled two months ago, my house was wrecked all my jewellery every thing taken simply because I had left my windows open slightly, now I've got to sleep at night with all my windows closed and I don't get a good nights sleep apart from feeling insecure any way and er the swindle er I trusted people and now I can't trust any body and that leaves you feeling very insecure. right, who else said yes, yes Right, I was subject to a, an assault that was quite frightening erm in that I was working in a shop on my own and er someone came into the shop and locked the door behind me and tried er to pull me down towards the back of the shop and er apart from being very frightened I find it difficult to accept that I was just an innocent victim, I kept making excuses that this person who did it to me didn't mean to frighten me he, only couldn't communicate that he, he, he said it eventually when I managed to fight him off he said, I just wanted to give you a kiss and er I find it very difficult and I had to be forced to go to the police erm to tell them about this because I thought you know its just a misunderstanding and, but it was terrifying mm it really was terrifying. so robbery, assault, who else?what, yes Very minor on the scale of things but I've had a car stolen, erm great inconvenience, can't believe its going to happen to you, didn't do any thing to have caused this, locked up and took all the precautions, and yet it still happened and some one, some where out there has my car. when was that? mm, nine weeks ago. so your still, yeah so I'm still struggling with four children and no car yeah and I'm not happy about it really what else?, up there Can I just comment on the lady saying a minor crime, I don't think any crime is minor when it happens to you mm if your the victim, its major, it has effected her life, maybe not to dramatically but she has been greatly inconvenienced by not having a car mm so the term a minor crime I, I don't think is a very good one to be using. mm, yes I was actually mugged on holiday er then years ago and I was held up with a gun and it was the most horrendous feeling where was that? in Barbados and er some young chaps had saw me lying on the beach and er they stole my bag and they stuck a gun in my face and freeze lady, you don't do any thing, you just let them take what they want and its a horrible feeling when your there, we were there for three weeks and it just totally spoiled the holiday but the ramifications of it don't just stop once you got on the plane home, it was very frightening well your talking about it now and, and with a degree of emotion, do you still feel it? oh, it was feel , it was so terrifying, you just, you regard every one with suspicion after that. mm, mm I actually feel, there was a time I used to think it wouldn't happen to me because if I was in that situation I would do this, I would do the next thing and when it did actually happen to me it took me ages to get over mm the trauma because your so helpless and what was, what was the it can I ask that happened? mm I mean if you don't want to say its alright no, I don't particularly want to say yeah but you, you've, you build up the strength in yourself and believe that your, your in vulnerable and then to find out that you are vulnerable, it really scary yeah I think that's a very good point that, that the fact that you've lost control whether its of your, your own personal safety yeah or, or your, or your property or, or the people you care for, yes I was actually flashed at er in the library and what I thought of I would of done was completely different to what I actually did, erm, I thought I would of been quite calm about it, but in fact I ran out the library and I ran straight back to my flat erm, I was at that point I think about twenty one mm and I'd just finished training as a nurse and I thought I was really cool and calm and I would of reported it, but I didn't you didn't? no why was that? I think I was about twenty one several years ago now oh, I see well its interesting that you've remembered it, I mean do you wish you had reported it? yes, yes yeah and its lasted the memory of it and I do wish I had reported it or at least gone to the library staff. there I am a victim support counsellor and why is it that criminals get all the help you know when they don't give help to the, the victims of crime? is that your feeling that, that criminals get more help than victims? well they get lawyers and all the supports what's, what's , what's the general view on that? to because we've got the Legal Aid system, but I mean my son was also a repeated robbed in his car and what shocked me was the, the police they said to me you shouldn't have a pretty car any way, he had a brand new X R three you shouldn't have a pretty car, I mean that is nonsense mm, yes so he's got an old banger now, you know, they don't break into it. As a police officer, any woman who do decide to report a crime to us they are offered quite a lot of advise mm, mm we refer victims onto victim support groups, if its a case of rape then their passed on to the rape counsellor's and also survivor's, we will be with er a victim all the way through the enquiry and if at the end of that enquiry they will also be given details of the criminal injury's compensation board. In your experience is there er, er a distinct failure on the part of people, I don't know whether you'd say men or women to report a lot of crime, I mean I don't, I don't know whether you can assess what proportion of crime's aren't reported? I think there's always a fear to come forward and bring the details of a crime out into the open mm er, it can be a very terrifying experience for a woman, but I think part of the mental experience would be coming forward to the police and they had dealt with now in a far more caring and understanding manner, that that can actually help in a process of getting over it eventually. yeah, now your saying that, is that, in your time working with the police that the, previously people weren't dealt with with such sympathy? Well I would say that there has been a lot of changes since the new Home Office guide lines were issued in nineteen eighty five yeah before hand there were the same designated police officer of the same specialized suites, things have changed and they have changed for the better. I wonder if that's everyone's experience?, would, would any one agree or, or disagree with that?, Monica I think I might ask you erm I think your involved with the changed project is that right? yeah so, you, what does, what does that do exactly? Well we actually take men who have been convicted of offences involving domestic violence mm, mm and put them through an educational programme as a conditional of a probation order. I think what were dealing within a programme like this is very much the tip of the iceberg mm because I think women have traditionally been very reluctant both to report domestic violence and hearing echo's of what women are saying here, in terms of women looking into their own behaviours, to why it is happening rather than er having it labelled as a crime and I think one of the, the, the main thrust of the project, the women involved in is to raise the profile of domestic violence into being a criminal act. I think if your, in, in a relationship with the person that commits the crime against you, as victims of domestic violence then there's a tendency to look for the reason you were assaulted within yourself mm I think its very significant, here we are and lots of people have admitted to being a victim of crime but statistics show that twenty five per cent of women will be assaulted within a relationship and yet no women here has said that and that's probably because the women who have been so assaulted feels somehow it is their own fault, its somehow shameful. possibly also they might not want to go on national television and say that, which, which I would sympathize with entirely I mean you know, why, why bring it on yourself, yes Erm, I work for ?in Edinburgh and erm, er all too often er we see er female relations er of male offenders, er this lady struck a chord er especially when it comes to serious crime mm where women examine themselves erm, if its the mother or the granny er did I bring him up wrongly, erm the girl friends or wife's er is it something that I didn't understand and at the same time it er really changes their lives mm er to visit prison's year after year after year er with children to prison's er all over the country mm and erm I just think that women are so strong and, and another thing that I find er that is very important, is perhaps there's women here we should look at why there's only one female prison in Scotland and about fourteen male lot and including young offenders institutions and er, I mean what is it we are as agenda er just less criminally minded, more controlled, more clever, what, you know we should be teaching men. but it is the case that twenty two per cent of crimes are committed by women, erm and I think that the situation with women committing crime is quite complex and complicated one, erm that really needs quite er, a great detail of discussion, and one of the, the points I was going to make was this question of feeling guilty mm erm, when we are victims of crime, and personally I think that there are two main reasons for that, one reason certainly is that when women erm are victims of crime that there is of a sexual nature or domestic violence, part of the way that we have been brought up and part of the way that those crimes have been portrayed, is to portray them as our fault yeah er and some of the solutions that are offered to reduce those crimes involve women restricting, their movements and their freedoms, but I think one of the other reasons why generally people who are victims of crime be they men or women feel guilty is because one of the implicit elements in tradition crime prevention strategies is for us to reduce the opportunity for crime mm, mm. not to leave our handbags er in the car, not to leave the windows open and so on and I think that really dodges the issue of why people commit criminal acts. You were just saying, you know, that we should just walk in the streets and things like, but I would just not walk out in the streets at night, I've got to be in the car with the doors locked and, and I just wouldn't walk out in the streets at night, not because any thing has happened to me, but its just through what I've heard, I'm just terrified. So your willing to restrict your movement Yes I am , I am afraid aha. Socially and psychologically women are brought up to care for relationships, to care for people, they want to do it well, where it goes wrong they tend to blame themselves, but equally we have eminent members of the judiciary who in the past have commented in some of the cases of severe assaults on women, the kind of er quote that you were making mm, mm she asked for, she shouldn't of been walking along the street at twelve o'clock and when we have those attitudes at the top of our legal and judicial system its no wonder women blame themselves and indeed maybe blamed. well perhaps, but women get very angry as well, but nothing seems to change, I mean what the heck do you do about it when some estimable er gentleman and it almost invariably must be a gentleman since their by far the huge proportion of er presiding judge's and magistrate's comes out with that kind of comment about er a woman's victim reputation or behaviour as he sees it, I mean what is, what is the answer there? If every one who was offended wrote a letter, that would be a start. So once again its, its, its your responsibility to complain about the ill that has been done to you, yes. I think your treated completely differently if your assaulted in the street than you are if your assaulted in your home mm, mm I was treated abominably by the police when I was assaulted in the home er, when you say you were treated abominably what do you mean? over a number of years I was subjected to domestic violence, erm, the last time I left I didn't report it right away, morally it was my son, I didn't want to drag him through the court, but when I did I was told no, your too late, you will just be seen as a woman scorned, your trying to get revenge, and that's it, no, I'm not taking a statement. So what's your general feeling at the end of that particular experience? Furious And er, and, presumably your attitude to the police is not a sympathetic one no is that, is that general? as far as domestic violence is concerned, yes. Yeah, I worked with a voluntary group for a while and I remember helping one lady go through, she was raped, and go through the courts, and all her past life was brought up, I mean I was so upset for her and yet the fact that he had actually raped twice before wasn't brought up, but her past life was brought up and the man actually got off in the end because she just could not cope with being on the stand and dealing with it all and it was just so terrible that, that, that the, the ina , mm the differences should be male and female like this was so terrible So your describing a system which you feel double victimizes someone who is, who's I think it can do, I mean it was a long time ago and I'm, I'm yeah told that it has changed, but at that time, and I know my feeling was left that if I was raped I wouldn't never go to the police. well a number of things have come up so let's just take a couple of votes as er, from hearing from a few people and of which people haven't managed to speak so, first of all, er, er people talked about fear being larger than the incidence of assault, are you afraid to go out in the dark?, button one for yes and button two for no do you find that your afraid to go out in the dark, and then this hundred and that's a very, I mean that's, that's a very significant figure fifty seven out of this hundred women say yes that their afraid to go out in the dark from time to time, I mean that, that is not as it should be, let me ask you are you ever afraid in your own home?, button one for yes and button two for no and that two is a very worrying figure, twenty nine of of this hundred say yes their afraid in their home, let me ask you this have you trained in self defence?, button one for yes and button two for no, I mean its something that comes up from time to time and I don't know what your view and whether or not its a good idea, well twelve of the hundred here have er, eighty eight say no, of those twelve would you recommend it?, did it make you feel better?, yes At the time it did, but I think I've forgotten every thing I learned. Yeah I, I er thought about self defence but I keep thinking about things like that's fine but if someone has a knife or a gun, the one might of self defence that I have been trained on or taught in can possibly help and I can't really see it as being very very helpful because mm, mm very seldom is er one to one situation where the perpetrator does not have a gun or a weapon of some description so I don't see it as being very helpful. do you think in this country that's the case?, people have a weapon now certainly if they I think so were doing this programme in the United States that'll be, but then of course you living in the States you'll probably all have guns I mean I don't, I wonder, do, do any of you have a gun?, let me ask you that do you, do, do you have a gun?, button one for yes and button two for no well I'm not going to ask you to identify yourselves the three of you who have, well in fact, I must ask you this would you, would you like to have a gun?, button one for yes, button two for no, I'll tell you my own view on this after you've voted and nine of you say yes you would, what, what, would any body liked to say why they'd like to have a gun?, yes Well I erm, I was, I was burgled about a year ago and I'm am ex er, I'm a retired criminal lawyer, and, but I, I felt that if I lived in the States and trained in the States and I carried a gun then and I felt very vulnerable in not having a gun because he, I was in my own home and he fist me with a knife mm, mm you, er, it had happened because I had been, I had had a lot of training and a lot of swindles and thing, I was able to talked to him and I talked to him for an hour and a half er, I was curious for one thing to find out why he was, he, he was breaking into people's houses, so that the fact that he was doing it for, to, to get money for drugs mm, mm and I, I told him I wasn't stupid enough to keep money in the house as an ex er as an ex lawyer and erm, where, er it so happened as I say that I talked to he, he didn't take any thing in fact at the end he apologise for having chosen the wrong house and he went to put the, he, he went away again, but I, I did mention to the police, who I might say were very helpful were ninety per cent of burglars don't get cleared up so of course it wasn't important and I never expected it would be, but I did mention to the police at the time that I would like an future occasion because I've been trying to use guns in America er to have a gun in the house but they er, but they wouldn't erm agree to it at all mm, mm I asked if I could have a fire arm, she said oh no, no, no, they mm but, but I think that we'll get into that stage in Britain do you? but erm , er at a stage that they are in and been for a long time in the States as we will have to er get armed, well I'm sorry to say this but it seems like it well no its your view, although ninety one of the women here said no and er, if I had a vote I'd, I'd probably say no because I'm absolutely convinced I would use it if I had it and er, and well, well, one can be abrupt at times and the that could lead to other things, we've kind of veered of the, one of the subjects that we were er, we did get onto which was how the police and the courts er handle er well victims and indeed criminals, I wonder if I might conflate erm both those groups into one question, its a very broad question, but I wonder if you think by and large the police do a good job, erm button one for yes and button two for no, erm and the majority here say yes, seventy seventy people say yes the, the police do a good job and since we've talked about the courts do you think the courts do a good job by and large?, we've been talking specifically about erm some of the more bizarre erm statements that have come from the bench, particularly in with reference to crimes erm, that have treated against women, well now, seventy nine say no, so the police comes thumbs up, but the courts are way down, now not surprisingly there aren't many representatives from the courts er amongst this hundred because er there weren't all that many er available, what, what do you think of, twenty one of you said yes, of the twenty one who said yes are you surprised that the great majority of this hundred women are so unimpressed by, by the courts system, who said yes and would you like to defend your answer?, yes Er, I must declare an, an interest because I am a, a court lawyer, but I think that a lot of people say no because of the media pres , presentation, you only hear bad stories, they don't hear the good, good stories about the attempts to make the courts more efficient and I think that on the whole and with the circumstances that the courts have to deal with they do a very good job. so its my fault again the media any, any, yes, up there. You've got to mention in Scotland the one thing that we've got to be proud of is the children's panel system because mm we, its one of the only countries in the world where children can go and in a non judged mental way, a panel can work out what the best thing is to do with them, its unique. We've hardly managed to touch on prisons at all, or though, although, I know that we have amongst us hundred people who er, who are, are responsible for and er and have dedicated much time to working in prisons and I don't know whether there is sufficient people here qualified to comment or not whether the prisons do a good job, so I'll ask some one who's bound to be a slightly partial Audrey , there's only one women's prison as some one said earlier, now your an ex-governor, now is that right? I'm a governor at present er working in prison service headquarters in Edinburgh, but I previously worked in Pentonville, erm I think it depends on what you mean by do by prisons do a good job, I think that's a terribly vague and wide ranging question well I, well that's why I'm not putting it to the vote I think in terms of our our first duty to protect the public by keeping offenders locked up securely, yes by and large we do a good job and that, by keeping good order in prisons we do a good job generally speaking incidence are very few and far between after the mid eighties, things have settled down considerably. In terms of offering prisoners a range of opportunities to address their offending behaviour and to take up erm an interest or activity which will channel them into other activities, I think at the moment we do less of a good job than we will two years down the line, I think the emphasis now is very much on opportunity and responsibility mm, mm encouraging offenders to except responsibility for what they have done, but also to take the opportunity to do something positive about that and in that were delivering a service to the public and to the offender, so I think things are improving that we should keep a watching brief yes would any one like to comment on that?, Jackie I've just spent six months in Cottonvale and I mean its degrading, I mean cos your locked up in a cell from eight o'clock at night till six o'clock in the morning and your not got any toilet facilities you've got to use a potty if you want to go to the toilet and it is degrading, I mean there's people in there, well I was a first offender the first time I was in, but I mean there's people in there seventeen year old that haven't a clue about life in general and it is degrading for them. So the claims that are made for the good of prison does your not, your not impressed by, well we have to give right of reply to Patricia as you work at Cottonvale. I would say that if a person is locked up from that time at night, there's circumstances, their perhaps observation for their own safety, erm any body else that can be trusted at night sanitation are not locked in, they have the facilities to go to the toilet during the night, I mean this person that's just said must of obviously been ob observation or was locked up for a reason. Were getting into an area which I think is a whole different programme and before this programme started I might tell you we were having a little er discussion amongst ourselves whether or not er zoo's were good for animals and I suppose there is a discussion about whether prisons are inevitably going to be degrading because of, because of what er, what, what a prison represents which is a curtailment of freedom, but we don't have time in this programme, so that's another one for next year, can I ask you, we've, we've touched a lot of basis and it must be frustrating that we can't pursue er to the end some of the things we've er, we've picked on, but can I ask you a couple of final questions, as far as you know have you committed a crime?, button one for yes and button two for no, as far as you know, I mean we haven't got time to go into what they might be so your perfectly free to be very honest and honestly reveals that three people aren't quite sur , oh yes there they are well there are fifty one law abiding citizens and there are forty nine potential felons if only they had been found out, my final question tonight is do you enjoy crime fiction? and that includes television, after all the station that this programme goes out on, wins a lot of revenue for making a very popular er detective fictional thing called Taggart, I don't know whether you watch that, or what you read but seventy eight of you enjoy crime fiction, now there's an interesting paradox that we will discuss, why you can discuss at home, we'll discuss it now, good night. What do you get the headphones for as well? I don't know. He didn't seem to know what they were in there for. Oh. Well you can listen to what you've taped with the headphones. What? You can listen to what you've taped. Oh You can play it back yeah, if you want to. Oh. I notice if you put the the headphones in it would erm you'd maybe be listening to it as it's taping? I don't think you can do that. Did you have to sign for something to say that you've had it? To say I've had it, yeah. Yeah. When's he coming back? Next Friday. Next Friday, oh right. And is that the microphone? Yes. And are you supposed to wear that? Er stick it in your t wherever, yeah. In your Stick it where you like. , you what? Stick it where you like. But d does it need to be uncovered? No. It's got erm it's own recording level. Yeah. And even if it and are you supposed to tell people that you're recording what they're saying or just record it Erm and then tell them afterwards? I suppose you should tell them that you're going to tape the conversation maybe, yeah. Yes. I don't suppose that matters really. But I mean, if you erm if you put your headphones on you see, they might just think erm you're listening to a Walkman. And er they would come up with some bad language towards you. Then especially if you told them you were recording what they said . Could be dangerous. I've asked Brian to take the dog out as well, when he comes back. I won't have time now. No. And I'm going to Chester tomorrow. Are you? Yeah. Ah! Didn't I tell you about that? There's no petrol in the car. You mean every time I have that car I have to put petrol in. No I put it in the last two times. Twenty quid's worth. So you'll have you watch my little car. Watch it or wash it? Watch it. Be careful. I'll be very careful with your little car John. Well it's not far to Chester. It's not as far to Chester as it is to Swansea is it? I don't suppose it is. Mm? No. Go the motorways though, if you can. Oh. You'll have to watch for, for the roadworks. I mean the roadworks on the M 6 are diabolical now. Mm. I it took us three and a half hours coming back from Swansea. But we stopped off for half an hour as well. And I think it's longer coming back that way. Over the bridge. No it isn't. It isn't. You sure? I'd be positive. Shorter. Cos th I remember the first time I went down that way over the bridge. It was about a hundred and eighty miles I clocked up. Er but coming back I only clocked up about a hundred and twenty. What was the mileage when we got there? A hundred and eleven? Something like that, yeah. So it was three hundred coming back or total three hundred. I can't remember now exactly. I I think it does make a difference, going over the bridge. I I found it when I was driving the last time. But I couldn't remember where the turn off was to come up the scenic route. Cos I was reading, and you'd passed it. Yeah well you could erm go up, go down the M 50 into Ross and then go from there. Yeah but th there was a turn off and I didn't know whether the turn off was at Cardiff and we went past it. Yeah, there is a oh to go back that way? Yeah. Yeah. You could turn off for Abergavenny again. Abergavenny yeah, but that was, that was going straight up So, where's she gone now? Who, Patricia? Well, she was going to Birmingham and then she was going to in a careers office. They close at about four o'clock don't they? Yeah, very probably. And she was hoping that they would have sent her for an interview down there. In the afternoon. Think she's probably staying in Birmingham. Well, Birmingham's on the cards cos Steve, Stevey-boy works there doesn't he? Pardon me? What? Food. Come on Brian and get in the shopping. Food food food food food food How's Brian? food food. Glorious food. no doubt. Oy. Your dinner's on top of the cooker. Plate might be hot. Eh! Who's got a Walkman? Me. How come? A bloke give me one. Told you we should have let him in. Oh it's got a microphone as well. Yeah. It's on at the moment. Recording? Oh I see. Why's that? Oh some experiment? Right. Some market research just to see how many times you swear at me. Really? Yeah. Oh that's good. So there will be er plenty on it. We should win any competitions then. Hands down I think. I can't eat any more of that. Macaroni cheese? Mm. Hey. It tastes alright for a few mouthfuls and then it like gets a bit monotonous. I've just been up to Tesco's. Mm? Who were you talking to? I was talking to er Simon and Dave and all the rest of the lads Yeah. Bragging about your bike. And er, no actually. Dave goes have you got your bike yet? I goes yeah, just been to pick it up. He goes oh and I suppose you loved every minute of it? What's that grey thing John? Has it fallen off the roof? Ooh. What's what? That grey thing on the ground. Oh yeah. It's off the erm Flue? No, it's off Vent? It's off the toilet erm The vent. the vent. Oh I'll pop back out there. I'll put it in the garage. We won't lose it then. It just slides on. But the wind licked it off I suppose. I'm definitely not putting it back on today, but I will put it back on . Well Do you know that chap two doors down with the B M W? Mm. The wind set his alarm off. Really? Mm. On his car? Shook it? Yeah. Mm, must be very sensitive. Upstairs, on the bed, vaseline on your nose. Now. Move it. How much did my shopping come? Go on. Eight pound seventy. Go upstairs. Oh that was good. Hurry up. What? He's going as well. He's gone. He goes upstairs, on the bed, vaseline on your nose go on. And he's gone up. I think he's getting hooked on the taste of vaseline, that dog. Yeah. So it's I'm gonna pop round to Matt's tonight. Who's Matt? Matt . Where's he live? Bromsgrove. Mm. He the one with the bike? Yeah. The one that dropped out of college? Work. Yeah. Yeah. Well I'll ring him up. See if he's in. You mean you're not going to show off to John ? Oh yeah. I'm gonna call for him on the way. Does he know Matt? No. I seen Andy in town today walking round with his erm headphones in. Oh yeah. Mm. That tasty? It is actually. It's a bit big though. Well John demolished my little omelette pan. Oh I see. Mm. So I had to use his frying pan. Rick. Let's have a look at your face. Oh nice. Did you get vaseline on? Mm. Oh, yeah I've got some now. Did you get your vaseline on Rick?good boy. I wonder if these people that have to listen to these tapes can understand doggy language as well? No. No? What do you think Rick? Did John tell you anybody that takes part will get erm a Marks and Spencers' voucher? Oh? Mm. Wonder if we'll get any, any vouchers for the dog? In the pet food shop. He makes enough noise doesn't he? Yeah, yeah. It was also noted today at these er presentations that I was the one with the least Brummie accent. Oh. Which made me feel good. Well except for Andy. Mm we oh yeah Andy's Nigerian. The Nigerian. Mm. Yeah. Except for him of course, but Cos I was getting a bit upset that my voice was going a bit Brummie. Oh right. I've given her her hairdryer back on trial, I've told her. If she leaves it plugged in and switched on again she won't get it back. Yeah. She's definitely unplugged the hairdryer and she's unplugged her radio as well. Because it ain't on. I ain't having the house burnt down. Bloody hairdryers. Well want to know if Rick joins in the conversation will we get any vouchers for doggy food? Yeah, we do don't we? Yeah we do. You are cheeky. What about her food? Tell Mary. Tell Mary all about it. I don't want to know about it Rick. Well who, who noticed that you had the least Brummie accent? The instructors Oh. and all the other lads. Oh right. Did they record it or that, no? Which is a good job. Mm. Cos most of us were petrified anyway. And that's a bit like that erm the teaching skills that I had to do that time when I was on the course. Mm? Erm and I had to think up something that I do as a hobby er to teach other people. I, I did those little flowers you see and took them in. And er it is quite nervewracking really to sit there. Specially when the instructors come over and they're sort of sitting watching as well. Well the bad thing was, as soon as I picked my cards up I dropped them all you know? Mm. All your flash cards? Good morning yeah. Good morning ladies and gentlemen pshoow and they, they went all over the place. So I had to pick them back up mm sorry. Bit of nerves. Be back to front now, this morning yeah? John wants me to er sew his trousers for him. Oh. I'm waiting on him picking up the machine. It tickles me the way they call it portable and you can hardly lift it. we took Patricia in to, we give her a lift as far as Longbridge today. She was going back to get her coat changed. And then she was going to the careers office. And erm they were going to send her for an interview straight away. I told her to be home reasonably early but she's not home yet. Well not far I know. Don't let it beat you. I dunno mum. Only a little omelette. Yeah but it was bigger than the plate. You had to fold it in half to get it on. That's what I said to John I said you've got your dinner in between an omelette. Yeah. That's right. I thought I could call it erm a Spanish omelette. What I tried to do was one of those Did you have ploughman's things. did you have a surplus of eggs or something? Pardon me. Well erm, I knew you wouldn't eat sort of sliced ham on its own with erm vegetables. So I knew you would eat it like that in an omelette. Mm. I mean, if it had of been smaller. Well, I'll have a go but I may not eat all this but if it was smaller it's really tasty as well. Mm. But you liked those erm were they countryman's or ploughman's in a packet and you just throw them into the pan and cook it for about fifteen minutes? And that was just potatoes and eggs wasn't it? And some cheese. And bacon. Don't remember. Oh. What I want to do, I want to cut the shopping down as much as I possibly can. Well I think eight pounds is a good start. But when I go to the shops and I spend seventy pound for a week. We have to keep making trips back to the shop because we need bread or milk or something else that we've forgotten. So so just make little trips. So we're just making little trips as we run out of stuff. Mm. Good idea. And see how, if that will work out any better. Yeah. Well the good news for the environmentalists is the bike runs on unleaded. Mhm. Which is good news. Cos like that's not so expensive. So, I shall have to take it to the petrol station in a minute. Yeah. Does, and does it need erm oil or anything like that? No. He showed me where the little oil level was. So you don't have a dipstick, there's a little little ho glass hole Mhm. where you look in. Oh right. With a a maximum and a minimum. Mhm. Like on your dipstick. And you just look at it. Mm. Mm. Well, just be careful when you go out. Yeah. Cos I mean it's it's not the bikers it's the other vehicle that's on the road. Alright? Not more than two minutes. John will verify this. Do you remember John? We came out of the shop, turned left turned left there, and then turned right. We're going down this road and John was in front of me and just as John went past this wagon it pulled out and there was a car coming the other way. Eeeeh hit my horn. Ha I could have shouted louder. And he stopped and luckily there was just enough room for me to slow down and just go between them. I mean that guy just pulled out in front of me. Mm. Huge, huge lorry. Oh he he didn't see you or just didn't ? Didn't care. Oh. He saw me alright cos like John said I had the headlights on. Yeah. Well that's it. Don't expect anybody else to obey the highway code. Yeah. Right? Did you see them two dirty great big no right turn signs? What no right turn signs ? You what? I said to the bloke I said how do you get out that junction? He said you don't, there's no right turn. I looked up the road and there was two great big signs, no right turn. I'd already gone that way twice. Yeah. And turned right. Yeah. Cos it's a very awkward junction. Mm. Thank you mum. Dog's looking at you. What do you want Ricksy? Come on then. What is it Ricky? Come on then.. dog. I don't see any I don't I don't see any bacon in there. You're not having bacon till Monday. Are you gonna buy it tomorrow? No. Oh. You're working, so you don't need bacon. I'm not working Monday. Well you can go and get it. Saturday Sunday. Let's have some wh when? Monday. I'll be up then. I won't need it. Well I might get it Sunday for you. Okay. But we talk about this and we said we're cutting the shopping down, I'm not going shopping. And the first thing you do is demand that we have butter in the house. So we had to go and do shopping just to get your butter. No you didn't. You bought dog food. You bought milk. Yeah I didn't I didn't actually need to go shopping or I didn't want to go shopping. You did. You needed butter. No. You needed butter. There's margarine. Alright. Don't you eat it. Don't you touch that butter. Right. I won't. Nor anybody else. If you're saying you're buying the butter solely for me, then I just want me solely to eat it. Cos I'm not carrying the can. I needed butter as well. Brian, you're not to eat it. What! Not even on my toast at night? No. She says you had to go out and buy butter solely because I wanted it. And I've Oh I've had the bollocking cos we've had to buy butter. Well I wanted it as well so that's two against one. And if you see her, see her eating our butter there will be a row. Cos you've said that. I won't have Flora on the toast. I think that's horrible. It goes all watery. Look I'm not amused at all. Well neither am I. na na na na na He said he wants butter. Yeah. Well why couldn't you put up with margarine for one day? Oh we could have. But I didn't mind going shopping. Yeah well sh I wouldn't have minded just for today. I I didn't mind going I didn't s I I didn't say Now you say that I didn't say I'd got to have it today. Cos I don't. Yes you did. No I did not. You s your suggestion was send Brian to the shops. Not mine. Now that was the Well can you empty one of those and put it and put it in that bucket. Will you turn that tape recorder off so I can thump him. Thumping me probably won't come out on the tape. I came out with the awful truth today to the lads. So you dropped it. They loved it. So you told them you fell off your bike? You said you're not gonna believe this. He goes why aren't you on your bike Brian? I goes I went to the end I goes look I'll tell you all together get it over with I lost my balance and I dropped it. Alright? There you go. Er thank you. Bye. Whoa come here, come here. Tell us all about it. He goes what you done? I goes ah just broken the indicator lens and a few other little bitties. He'll eat that. One of yours. Did you like that John? I'm not finished yet. There's another two plays on tomorrow. Tomorrow? Okay. I'll sort them out. Oh you've been up to Joe 's have you mum? Mm? Have you been up to Joe 's? Got more in . Mm?special? I think you were a bit. Shut up Rick. He's crying his eyes out in there. Three hundred and ninety pounds insurance. Not too bad. I've gotta get that down a bit. Mm. ten pound for the cover note. You know just for Really? three or four days. Yeah. You know while while the changeover has been done. Got my registration number today. Mhm. J One O two. Is it TOV or? Anybody want any more chips? One O two two. My new number. Oh. W Y C or something. No thanks. No thanks Mary. W Y C I think it is. So all the ones you see T O C and Yeah they've got O in them. Or V. Yeah. T O V or whatever. Go and lie down. At one time the V was only for, for commercial vehicles. Mm? You know light vans and commercials but it's used for anything now. You know our car's D V P. Yeah. Oh and I can't eat that bread and butter now. I'm chockered. Yeah one of the, one of the lads there Alan, he goes er I'm surprised you haven't committed suicide yet after dropping your pride and joy. Well it does hurt your pride. Oh yeah. Specially when you do it in front of all the neighbours. Can't show my face again. I'm afraid we cannot have any of this. Too . Hope it's dry tomorrow. I won't feel so bad about going to work on it then. If it's wet just take your time. Yeah. Keep it upright. I can't understand how I did it you know. Well you didn't realize it was going over did you? No. It catches you by surprise. I think I must have had my weight to the front of the bike, you know, coming up on the braking. Er this tap's dripping. When does the insurance run out? Eh? When does the insurance run out? Where does? The insurance run out. It's run out. Wednesday. Oh Wednesday. Quick, ring up. Shouldn't be dripping. Pressure's not high. Pressure was down again this morning. We must keep an eye on that. Yeah. Cos between one and two bar on the, on the erm boiler. What was it on? Eh? It means, means the system wasn't pressurized. Yeah. But it could be very dangerous. It's not right. Will it give a constant read out through the day? Even when it's switched off? Yeah. It shouldn't move. Oh. The pressure's okay Mary. Cos I didn't notice it this morning. I didn't notice it this morning. Probably be alright to use the hot water system but not the heating. Oh right. Because it's a pressurized system. So if you have a look and you can't see that needle. Yeah. The, the water is the water pressure's definitely changed. Well it's changed now cos it's up now. I in the shower in the shower for one. It's up now. I it's weak in the shower. Er well it would have been. There was no pressure on it. No, it's always weak. It's always weak in the shower now. Mm? It's never as strong as it used to be. It shouldn't be. It should be okay. And it's cold as well. Have you noticed? Yeah I was I had a shower, well, perhaps the water's been turned down a bit. I I keep turning it up again but it it's cold every time I use it. You know I pull it out and turn it up hot. No I mean here. Oh there. On the boiler. That water. Rick. It's only one and a half. It should be higher than that. I'll put it up to two and a half and it should be warm enough there. Right. Lovely. Is just? Well we'll have to watch that boiler. Yeah. They're fatal if we, if it. You just opened the door on the dog's mouth. Opened the fridge door and hit him right on the Yeah. right in the mouth didn't you Rick? Poor Rick. My poor baby. Aah! Come, what did she do to you? What have I got for you? Hang on, hang on. How much do you love me? That much? Okay. You're only having little bits. You're not having any bones or anything like that. We'll have to keep it out, and use it. Is there a time limit? Forty five minutes a side so it's erm I mean no. When he wants it all done by. Yeah, Saturday. Saturday? All those tapes? Well as many as possible. That's what I mean. We'll have to keep it out. Somebody's put it away you see. Mother. Yeah. Oh I don't doubt it. There's only one person that commits the mortal sins. That's it. Yeah. And her name is mother. Well I'm certain it begins with M. Rick. You're not having any rice. No. Where's all this paperwork? That's all mine. What you looking for? Paperwork belongs to this. Mary. Ooh! That hurt. Mary. I didn't want him to have that. Mary. Mary where's the paperwork belonging to that? I dunno John. Oh that's some of it. Have a, get it all out then Brian. There's a book in there I've gotta fill in. That's it. That's it. There doesn't happen to be a pen in there does there? Oh I see one. That my erm cover note? I've no idea. Friday the thirteenth. What a day to buy a motorbike. See the value of the bike came down, the value of the insurance came down cos I put the value at twelve hundred pounds. See erm there was a ten percent discount if you had it erm under twelve hundred and fifty pounds. Yeah. So in some ways it's cheaper insurance but in others it's erm a bit of a sting. Have you done? Come on. Oy. See that machine there? What does it do? It hides behind mother so that Brian can't get at it. No. This plates go in this way. Well I'm not allowed to use this machine so er Knives and forks should go in that way. Right? Why that way? There are glass plates somewhere. Have you made any tea Mary? No. No. Do you want some tea? I want to get into the habit of finishing and getting the dishwasher on and ge cleaning the kitchen completely. I told him to ring I told him ring Apex up in case they were recruiting. Because there are jobs up on the notice board. But he said Apex didn't know anything about it at the moment. So I mean, if Apex don't know anything about it I don't know why they don't . Now you know I don't get on with plastic. Oh I got it first time. I got it first time. Oh god. Tell her there will be half a pie for her tea otherwise she don't get none. I mean this is ridiculous. Yeah. Turn that on for me will you? Just It's making work for everybody. And one thing we don't want is extra work. I mean if we get finished now and clean the ki cooker and and clean everything and say right, we're out of the kitchen then, nothing more tonight. That's it. If they want something they can get it themselves. Yeah. Yeah but tell them to clean up after them. Mm. Don't leave it for you all the time. Yeah. Lynn doesn't cook any meals for any of them. No. Well I mean that's different to the way we live though isn't it? Mm.? Mm? Packet of instant mash. Tin of peas and a tin of spam. Mm, could you imagine me Lovely. And throws it all in puts it all on the plate cold and puts it in the microwave. No wonder he sits in the chair and does nothing. Because they do it at home. Eat that food now. I've had enough of you. You're being perfectly silly. Erm, I can't think what you do tomorrow when you go with Steve . I mean that will be three hours continuous. Yeah. I remind me in the morning. Yeah. I'll stick a note on the thing. Yeah. Eh? you forget about it Yeah. Don't put it away then Mary. Pardon? Don't put it away, you'll have to leave it out for the week. Seventeenth tomorrow isn't it Mary? Mm? Seventeenth tomorrow? Yeah. I'll have to, I shan't Yeah. Mm. I've put a list up erm for the things that I want for my birthday. For the things that I would like for my birthday. Are you interested? Yeah. John, how much do I owe you for the erm the lens? Phaw one twenty five. Can I this? Yeah. Yeah so I'll keep it in the garage. Keep it in your pocket. Right. It's no good in the garage. Oh oh. There you go. I'm reduced to pennies again. Okay. Well I've got no change. That's alright. Right, keep that in me pocket. ? Alright, yeah. Are you having some cake? Er no thanks. No cake I I'll have some tonight. no yogurt. Right. Don't bank on it. New kitchen rules. New kitchen rules. New kitchen rules mum. Yes, yes. Come on then. After supper. Yet again. After supper. After supper and it's mum Dishwasher that cleans the kitchen. Mum is staying out of the kitchen. Oh yes! Right? So, if you want anything make it yourself. I do anyway. Mm? I do anyway. Supper. Mhm. Well you can sit there and I'll read this list out to you. And I will cringe. For mummy's birthday mummy would like one a gold locket with a strong chain. Two, an eternity ring. Three, a hundred pounds worth of premium bonds. Four an epilator. Do you know what one of them is? Not an escalator? Oh, for taking the hairs off your legs? That's it. Not a razor. I've got a razor upstairs. Number five, a weekend away at a health farm. Oh forget it, you can scrub that out straight away. Number six a large bright dried flower arrangement. Number seven, a large colourful brooch. Not gold. Number eight, fountain pen. Not a cartridge pen and not a set. Just a fountain pen on its own. Number nine is gold earrings. Stud type not drop type, studs. Number ten's perfumes talcs and books. Number eleven is an ornament from the jewellers. Number twelve, nightdress and negligee set. Number thirteen, no chocolates please. And that's it. Okay. Pin that up on the board. Yeah. And what you will have to do, you will have to tell each other what you would like to buy or what you would think of. Because, if you scrub them off then I'll know that you're gonna buy them. Cross off the health farm. You can buy me er the locket, the eternity ring, the premium bonds and the weekend away at the health farm. You'd be lucky to get one. Good. I think you're getting as bad as me. Oh I got it from you. Coming out with your list of what you want for your birthdays. I thought well I'll try it. Where's the nearest loan company? Mm? Where's the nearest loan company? Brian. Me. I know. So When are you gonna cross my palm with silver? She I forgot about that. Yeah. When are you going to That will wipe the smile off your face. I do you want me to get it tomorrow for you? Mm. Cos I can call in at the bank and get it to No, don't get it till I want it to buy her present. Erm I only owe eighty pounds don't I? Cos of the twenty that I borrowed Mm. at the start of the month. Mm. Yeah . Stupid dog. He ignored that. Good boy. He didn't even look . I went to the doctors today. Oh yes? Yeah. He said don't buy any more new clothes. He said what? Don't buy any more new clothes. She said I was A hypochondriac? terribly overweight. What made her say that I wonder. And she would like me to go to the well women's clinic every Wednesday it's run. And she would like me to go, book in for an appointment. And she would discuss my diet amongst other things. Oh dear. Mhm. Which diet? Your chocolate diet? Your crisp diet or your food diet? Hm! Er Or the the meals in between diet. If if I'm on a diet you lot will be on diets. on diets We know all about it. but there will be no more cake. We know. I think I'm gonna have to change us all to Flora. Just buy me butter. I get no help and encouragement do I? I shan't encourage you to eat my butter. Hey you, I buttered that bread for you and you didn't eat it. I can't mum, I'm full. nice cup of tea. These people that have to listen to these tapes you know, they must get terribly bored mustn't they? I dunno. I suppose it can be quite entertaining. Yeah I should think so, yeah. Mm? I suppose it can be quite entertaining sometimes. Mm. Wait till Trish gets in. Then it will liven up. It's sure to. Er I I suppose it's to see how people use the English language. What words we use, what words aren't used. What slang we use. We use all the words of the English language don't we? We use the yellow ones, the blue ones, the black ones. I wonder how they'd get on with somebody with foreign? George is, George is gonna get me some lights for on here, did you know? Who? George. He's gonna get me glass? No, lights. Oh lights. George ? Yeah. Mm. He makes them. Well Lynwood do them. Oh? So the next time he goes he's gonna get some for me. Oh does George work for the Lynwood? What do you th what do you think He does he does ma a lot of manufacture for Lynwoods. Oh. What do you think of having in here artexed or airtexed or whatever it's called, artex. Yeah, good idea. But we're not spending any money. Yeah. I think Jean said, well she watched the others do it. They only did like erm a square foot every time. Erm you have to do, put it on and then design it. And then move over to the next square. Put it on, design it she said because it dries very quickly. Mm. It's only like a plaster of paris stuff isn't it? It does go off quick. Mm that's right. Quick. She said it's er about ten pound a tub but I don't know how far a tub would go? Not very far. Mm. And then she said there was stuff called textured paint that has, it's like paint with lumps in it. I think it's just lumpy paint gone wrong and then and they sell it. But then she said you get erm you put it on and you get a brush and er not a brush, a roller. And the roller has a design, a line on it. Different designs. That's right yeah. And then you just roll it on. Mm. Yeah. Mm. Said Debbie's used that in her house. It could definitely do with something. But we'll leave it for now. Mm. When, when he was in I saw he I saw Mark look at that corner. Mm. And he copped off. That one there? Yeah. It's skew-wiff. What does it come out does it? Goes in. Ah so I see, yes. Goes in about an inch. Mm. Mm. He was saying to me it was very difficult to do. Well I can't understand why. I mean really what he should have done if it, if it was that difficult he should have gone back another half a brick and the j bricked it up all the way Mm. level, instead of putting bits and pieces in. Surely Yeah. he could have half bricked it all the way up? Mm. Instead of saying how difficult it was putting bits and pieces in. I would have thought that's what I would have done. You know, just come straight up with a row of bricks. Logical thing to do. Yeah. That's what I thought. I mean it didn't have to be spot on. As long as it came back out to where it is now. Ah. Good boy. The dog was lying there last night and Patricia said something to him, I don't know what she said to him but the look on his face. You could tell it really upset him, whatever she said to him. Yeah. She she wouldn't tell us what she'd said to him either, so it must have been bad. But did you fart? He probably farted. Oh yeah well. Rick. You cheeky. Good boy boys. Cos we're talking about you. Go to sleep now. Good boy. Close your eyes. That's it. Close your eyes and go to sleep. Go on go on. Go on. You soft animal. He won't close his eyes in case you do something to him. Yeah. In case he see in case he misses something. What are you going out now? Yeah. I was gonna wash the car. I'll do it tomorrow. I've never Hey mum seen it so dirty. just think this time next week you'll have me new car for me. Yeah it's my birthday present. Eh? Top of me list. It's not on it's not on the list. You're not having it. . Number one A Forget it. You're too late now, you've made the list. Oh! You are slow. Mm. Do do do do How many tapes do they expect you to fill up John? I don't know. As many as are full up. Whether it be one, two ten fifteen, it doesn't matter. And what why do you have to fill in the form? Erm every time you use a tape you fill in this is tape side B tape one side B tape two side A tape two side B. Oh. So we're still on side one? No we're on one side B. We've done side A. Is it full? Yeah. When, what was the date we started recording on the tape? Was it Saturday? What date was last Saturday? Dunno John. Fourteen fifte fourteenth? That bloke didn't come on Saturday, he come on Friday didn't he? No, well What, why have you put down that you have your regional accent and I have an Irish accent? I haven't. Well, you can't tell that I'm Irish but I can tell you're Irish. Oh. How can you do that? I I . You're you're a frigging idiot you are. How do you know that people can't tell you're Irish? Nobody can. Nobody can tell that I'm Irish. Only when I swear. And you know I don't swear very often. No. Erm kids anyway. But that could change when Patricia comes in. And what does erm why does Brian and Patricia not have a regional accent? Well I don't think they have. Think a brummie accent. They haven't got a brummie accent, no. No. And th th they haven't got a twang as far as I know anyway so Mm. I'm only putting the truth down as I see it. Yeah. You know? I mean I could be wrong. I can only put down what I know to be the truth as far as I can tell. Mhm. There doesn't seem to be a regional accent in this area does there? If you start going further towards Worcester, Worcestershire. Into Worcester The black country. That area. that that area. Well, into Hailsowen Wales. Mhm. places like that, then you would get an accent. I suppose it's too much of a mixture up here isn't it? Mhm. But I don't look at Birmingham people Who? The girl next door. when Brian ? Thought he'd be but he wasn't. kids . Out. You'd better eat that food. I've seen you know the, the coat she brought home first of all? I've seen a lot of people up town wearing that coat, but they were all much older. I would have said they were in their forties. Yeah. You know, mutton dressed as lamb. Yeah. Wearing that type of coat. But Yeah. that one that she brought home does look decent. Right I'll move the car then, out of his way. Well switch your tape off. Oh you've been to see him? Yeah. Who's that? And er he he suddenly looked up and went it's Brian! Like this and the and the pliers dropped out of his hand. Ah! Like this he was. It was really funny. And did Janet come out? Janet came out and went hello, ooh. Got in her car and drove off. Off to the chinese. the chinese. And er She hasn't changed. And Greg, Greg goes oh let me sit on it! Oh! So, Greg was impressed. What car's he got? A Chevette. A Chevette. What year? T, same as mine. How much did he pay for his? Four fifty. No. No it was three seven five. Three seven five he paid for it. Yeah. I thought Janet's own car, I thought they gave it to Greg's brother? The Escort? They did. No, it wasn't an Escort he had out there the other day was it? That old beat up thing. That was several years ago. That was er an Ital he had out there. Oh. And what's and Janet driving now? Sierra. Sierra. Yeah. Sierra. And Jan's got a a new Mini. Oh. H reg Mini. Mm. Which She must be doing well now. which er which Emma's allowed to drive. Oh right, yes. But not Greg? But er Greg's got his own car. Is she still in Dixons? Think so. Mm. Oh she work in a Dixons? Mm. What full time? Yeah. Yeah, the estate agents I think. Oh the estate agents. Yeah she she left school and went straight into Dixons. Oh I see. And Janet wasn't impressed at all. No. Janet had high hopes for . Yeah. But er I think You can do well in that job though. You can be er kidnapped and all sorts. Eh? You can do well in that job. You can be kidnapped and all sorts. Yeah. And then we could always send Brian out to be the motorbike dispatch rider couldn't we? Yeah, so I mean I haven't really done that where, where did I ride to? Where else did you go? I went down to Greg's and I went round to Rob's to see how his interview went. And what was his interview for? For Rover. Oh. He's coming to Rover this year. Robert . He's just finished, well he's taking his exams in twelve weeks. Mm. A levels are in twelve weeks time. And will he just go in as an apprentice the same as yourself? He will go in the same as myself. But he'll be a year behind you? He'll be a year behind me, and he'll be on the same money as me. Oh right. Because he's done his A levels, oh. So he doesn't lose out there. His dad is also a manager down at erm Cowley I think . Mm. His dad does a lot of travelling. And erm Mm it must be at Cowley cos Connolly's virtually closed now. Yeah. And er What department's he in? I've no idea. Dunno. I know he's got a it's er it's one of the craft sections cos he's got craft apprentices under him. Oh. And how, how did his interview go? A lot of them have you know. He hasn't had it yet. He's had the test. Mm. But he's got the interview next week he thinks. Oh yeah is that did you tell him about the test? No, he'd already had it. Oh. Because er it come as a bit of a shock to you didn't it? Er Yeah. He he goes I'd no idea it was so hard. He said it was so difficult. Think it was a real shock for him. Yeah. And erm we er I gave him a few tips on what to revise on Yeah. for the interview. You know the cos they always ask you the maths rules. Th they will pick on something that you're good at. You know. And say if you do have a bit of knowledge on it. No I just told him to revise the er the cycle of the engine. Oh. And who erm Suck squeeze bang blow. who else did you go and see? Then I went down to see Andy. You know the one with the ginger hair? Ah yeah. And he come out with the same expression on his face. Oh yeah. Er! Oh motorbike! Yeah. He goes I don't believe it. He goes I now hate you. He hasn't been round for a while, Andy, has he? No well, you see Andy's got himself a A girl? a an older woman. Well older she Is that the one that rung Patricia? She's a year older. No. Which one was that? Simon. Oh. He's alright. Mm. I think, is in the er garage? Think so yeah. And then I, then I popped down to see James. Oh James has a bike doesn't he? No, that's Simon. That's Simon well, he's got rid of it. He's got a Mini now. a Mini. And James like your bike then? He went whoa! Big! Oh right. So you've done the rounds tonight then Brian? I've done the rounds tonight, yeah. Have you much petrol left? Loads. Loads. I filled it I put six pound on, put six pounds in on Friday and I've got loads left. And I've been all round the place. You'll have to go round Did you go for your gauge then? No. No. You'll have to go round visit your Aunt Bridie. Er Put her in an early grave? Yeah. Oh I couldn't do that to her. Tell her you've come to take her to the ol the pensioners' club on her, on your bike. Yeah. Come on, jump on. She might get on it as well. I've been ever so tired. Yeah. I tell you what did wake me up though John. Coming down the er the old church highway towards the house from town er the white arrows in the road You've gotta keep off them. I found that out. You what? You know the white arrows in the road? The white the white lines Mhm. and manhole covers. You've gotta find out where they are. What about them? Yeah. I've gotta memorize where they are from now on. Why? The white lines and the arrows in the middle of the lane. Why? They make you change your line. Because I went over it Mm and skidded? doing about sixty and I felt a twitch in the wheel and I thought shit! I'm not going over one of them again. Mm. Well you have to sometimes. You'll get used to it and it doesn't affect you I suppose it a bit? after a bit. But you've got to watch them when they're, when you're in the wet. I was I was, I was slightly banked at the time. Mm. Just very slightly. You w if your d wheel does move it won't move far. You get used to that, the wheel moving over a bit. I suppose er it's a trick not to over correct? It will stop itself. It will, it just might slide a bit but it will stop sliding when it comes off it. Yeah. Cos by the time you you've felt it you've passed it maybe? Well you you've travelled another hundred yards. Yeah. I er I suppose you have to be very careful er and find out what is on the road? But like tomorrow when I go to work Keep away from the kerbs. That's the most important thing. Yeah. I ride in the middle of the lane. Tomorrow when I go to work on it, I'm going through er I'm not gonna go through Bowgreen I don't wanna go that way. go that way . Well you can go straight up to Longridge Lane. I'll go straight through Longridge Lane. That way. Yeah. There's a lot, there's Up to Gr Gravelly Corner Yeah it's up Are you going over to Droitwich on it or will you go in your car? I'll go to Droitwich on it, yeah. Mm. And then coming back here to get changed or what? I've I've booked the whole morning off. Well I I p I personally think When you gotta go Droitwich? you would you would need Tomorrow morning. Oh tomorrow. I personally think you would need Well the weather forecast is dry anyway. more experience dri riding on the bike as it is, without erm having your rucksack and things on. Get used to carrying it. Mm? Get used to carrying it. It it didn't bother me at all. I'm not kidding you, it did I didn't feel it. I could feel a slight pressure on me shoulders, but it didn't restrict my movements in any way. When? When I was c coming back with the boots in them. In it. On Saturday. Mm. Well, just be very careful. And don't get over cocky. And keep away from big lorries. Yes mum. I fully intend to keep away from them anyway. I mean a bit of fear is a good thing. Erm, I'm still scared every time I pull away. You know,ji little jitterbugs. Yeah. And I went up Iver Road as well. On a bike? O o on the way back from Andrew's, yeah. I always found that awkward at the top. Yeah. Specially if there was cars on the hill and I had to pull up behind them. Cos you you run out of you know, what things to do. Cos you've gotta have one foot on the ground and you've gotta have one o ha foot, one on the brake Yeah. one on the clutch, one on the throttle Yeah. and the other one on, and your gear change. You're one missing. Yeah . Yeah you I'd just get off and push it . On Iver Road? Whoa! Down he goes. But luckily there was only a c only one car stopped at the top. So I just stopped dead and did a hill start. Stopped at the top and did another hill start. Plymouth Road's another awkward one. The first, the first down bit when you're going down Plymouth Road. Oh yeah, I bet. When you come to the right, the bend. Cos it's actually quite s , quite sharp bend. And it gets wet down there as well. It gets a bit slippy on there. And there's manhole covers as you come out the bend. And don't go don't go speeding Brian. You don't have the same control over a bike when you're speeding. You don't have the same control over a car It or a bike when you're speeding. It feels better, going slow. Cos it's more comfortable. Yeah. Your 's Yeah. better. When I say un slow, under fifty. You know when you, when you think that police rider Go at a speed you can enjoy it. Mm? Go at a speed that you can enjoy riding it at. Yeah. That's it. I mean the police riders look as if they're enjoying it. And and where people can recognize me. Mm? Where people can recognize me. That's it. Hey look there's Bri. Look at him go. Brrr And it will last you longer, you know? Yeah. Your bike, the engine, the oil. You reduce it's life. It's ever so good at the er cruising though. It's really nice. It should cruise along at about fifty at, you know, quarter throttle. Fifty it does about er three and a half, four thousand R P M. Yeah. It's about right for a four hundred. Mine would be doing about five grand at that. Four and a half, five. Mm. Mine went up with, you know let's face it if I was doing sixty mile an hour it would be doing just over six grand. Yeah. Anything over that, you know mine is going up towards the seven into the red. The red on that's about ten. Yeah. And mine did and mine's only a, mine was only a sm you know one eight five . Yeah. I haven't had it above er above about eight grand I think. That was when I wound it up on a carriageway. Don't, just keep your revs down. Hello Rick. You poor tired little boy. Cos erm Greg came down the other night. Did I tell you? When you were in Wales? He came No. he came down. To sh show me his car. Oh. How long has he had his car? Er he had a he had a Polonaise Oh right. before that. Ooh! I mean that's the pits. Bet he, he didn't wanna show that to anybody. No. He didn't that. But er and he got this little Chevette. Apparently he blew the Polonaise up. Everybody does, don't they? Yeah. Er he's bought his little Chevette and er it's a nice little car. Mm. Bit noisy but it's alright. Is it yellow or green? Red. Oh a red one! Oh yeah. Quite decent. He loves it. He's got all these plans for it. Bore it out to a fourteen eighty and Load of rubbish. Right. Thank you Brian. And make it last about six months. Or six thousand miles Do you want one? whichever comes first. No. No. Just give me a fiver. Haven't got a fiver. I'll go and er bring me bike in. Get me stuff ready for tomorrow. Hello. And, do you want a wee? Rick. Do you want a wee? Tell me what you want? Come here. Do you want a wee wee? Don't you cheek Don't eat the microphone Rick. You cheeky . T that's it, walk all over me. You cheek The gloves are good. Yeah? Gloves are, gloves are really good. They, not as like warm as yours but er they're certainly nice and warm. Yeah. You need good gloves Yeah. cos see once your hands get cold you've gotta give up. And now, now I'm wearing the scarf the er the cold doesn't go down. My er my adam's apple gets cold but that's about it. Do you want me to put the sound on? Yeah. I haven't seen him yet. Oh you haven't seen him. But she said to me, she goes er last Friday night she was ten pounds down. Yeah? And she's been working there eight years. Yeah. So it does happen. Oh yeah it happens, yeah. It's very hard to balance a till. Yeah. She says you get new ten pound notes, they stick together and you count them as one. She says that is the most common one. Yeah. It could have been there all the time. Yeah. And you missed it you see? And as for being six pound up, she says I must have short-changed someone . Yeah. Come on, you're losing your touch now. Come on, give me a kiss. Go on. Quick, quick quick quick. Good boy Go on. Get it Rick. Go on. Hey! Kiss. And me. Give me one. Give me a kiss. Kiss. Give me a kiss. Give me a kiss. If you don't kiss, kiss Rick Rick Rick Rick Hey. Oh thanks Rick. You put it on there? Yeah. Well I've left you three tapes out to take with you. When? Now. Oh this morning? Yeah. I mean it's a good opportunity. You might as well get it used up. See it's having a pocket What are you looking for? It's having a pocket to put it in to. Does it have a clip on the back? Yeah. It can clip on to your trousers. Yeah. everybody? Where is everybody? Oh we're first by the look of it. Oh dear. Well almost first anyway. Haven't you? Oh Mary was late up. There was a right panic in our house. How come? Well I, I got up late and Brian was in the bathroom. Had to rush downstairs, do my breakfast. Had some Weetabix quick and a cup of tea. Rush rushed into the bathroom. Went in there and went and got dressed so Mary was up then so when I got back downstairs the er breakfast, my breakfast was on the table. Again. So all in all, it's quite exciting. You all looking forward to this? Yeah. Yes I am. I said to Sue I said I can't ring and tell him I ain't going I says, I'll upset him too much. I think I'd have if you was to say that. feelings. I would have been upset. I would, I'd have gone to . I thought I'm, I'm going this morning. Did you go yesterday? No. No . Didn't have time really. no, we'll leave this on. I thought we'd be too bollocksed by the time we get up there anyway. Er yeah. You don't John? Yeah, should have somewhere. In case it's er again. Otherwise we folding things up. Do you know them three mirrors I had? I had three mirrors, I can't find the bleeding things. Can't you? No. I don't know what I've done with them. I've got I've got seven I think balls. But I've got all seven good ones. But, it looks grotty, it is a good one. Yeah. Have I got everything? Yeah. No, yesterday me flaming back was killing me. Really? And I thought oh,. Niggling this morning but I daresay walking round here might do it It will get rid of it yeah. I took some yesterday, I was and I took some last night before I went to bed and I took two this morning. Cos my hips were killing me. You what? My hips were killing me, you know? Well I think that's cos I lie on me right in bed. I have to t I go and lie on me left but if I lie Yeah. on my right side it's er Yeah. you've gotta knife in your side. Yeah. I, mind you I today. Ooh. Oh you ca I'll let you. If we ever get up this hill. Morning. Morning. Morning. Yeah. She was the one that was giving a bollocking to . Yeah. He's conscientious anyway isn't he? He's doing his best. Oh yeah. Don't look up. Phew Oh dear. Nearly there. I find if I don't look up it's not so bad. You ought to be able to drive up here didn't you? I really wouldn't mind selling all my camera gear. Su and er it's su such a waste. I never use it. It is isn't it? You, you've had no pleasure really out of it. No. I mean if I sold it cheap. Eh? Even if I only sold it, you know for a couple of hundred pounds. Well you could buy yourself some golf stuff for a hundred couldn't you? Or Well it's worth more than a hundred. Well I couldn't sell it you c you could maybe I dunno that cheap. What do you want Rick? If you're not gonna help, clear off. Rick being the dog. You wanna keep that don't you? Oh yeah that, that will be handy. Yeah. And the there's your writing set as well. Yeah. I'll I'll keep the writing set. I think yeah. I mean that's lovely. Take that downstairs. You can write to Mark. Then you've got yours and I've got mine then. Yeah. Right yeah. I myself. Okay. Well it I always think it's terrible you know, when people buy you things and you don't use them. These windows aren't that dirty Mary. Aren't they? They're not that dirty, it isn't long since I cleaned these you know. I'm only doing this as a big favour. Eh. I'm gonna tell Norman I got five thousand for the car. So don't, don't say nothing. No. He'll be as sick as a pig. What about these glasses? Whose are they? Mine? . Ours. Your oh ours? Are they the ones that er Davina brought them. Is that the one that's, one's broken? One's broken, yeah. It's got a crack in it. Oh. Well get rid of it then. Mm. I think we've got enough haven't we? Yeah. Yeah sell it. He's not, he's not doing these sills like he said he would. Like I asked him to. Who isn't? The, the window cleaner. Oh no. That's a monstrosity isn't it? Aha. We'll keep that one. Wh who bought us that? Alice and Marie . Yeah. And that he he knows that that flat's let. Er What? Let to Oh. the brothers from work. Oh yeah. Oh that's expensive though, isn't it? Mm. It's a cake plate? Yeah. Yeah. That was a few pounds. It matches that bowl downstairs. Yes I know. Yeah. Mm. We've, I mean we've lost a hundred pound on the car. Why? Cos it er the tax er there's twelve month's tax on it. Oh well. That's neither here nor there. Oh no and it's gone now. I mean you, the other one's gonna be taxed for Twelve months, yeah. twelve months so it's as long as it's broad John. I suppose I suppose we could get rid of the erm all these pay slips now couldn't we? Yeah. I think so. I'll go and get er a black bag for rubbish. Oh my god! Hey well why don't you sell them at the car boot sale? Well I mean they're only part sets. They aren't actually worth a lot of money. Are they? No but I mean you'd gi maybe give somebody a bit of pleasure sorting them out. Yeah. and write on it er car boot sale. We're gonna burn all these? This is rubbish. These want burning don't they? Do they? Yeah. I'll burn them. Wh why do they want burning? Well I don't like things like this flying around. The old pay slips and things. So I I'll burn them. I'll burn all this. Where will we burn them? I'll burn them in the garden. On the top patio. Have a little fire going. I wouldn't bother so much John. Yeah, I I would. That rubbish? Rubbish. That's it. That's the rubbish on the . No, these are all foreign coins. You can't get rid of these. Will they go to the boot sale? No. No I'll keep them. What's that? Rubbish. Well what's the difference between throwing this one out and throwing them out and burning them? We'll keep the coins. What did you say? I'll keep the coins. Oh right. This box is going back into the cupboard with the things that you want to keep. Oh, right. Okay? Well all this, all this is good. I want to keep. Everything in there's gonna be kept. Right. Is this your adaptor? I found it in here. Yeah I know I fou seen it the other day Mary. Car boot? No. That's I want, don't don't chuck old and ancient things away that might be worth a lot of money later on. I mean that's a rare thing. What's that? That one? Is that yours? Yeah. For car boot sale. Eh? Car boot sale that one. On the tray. Yeah. What's that? That's a screwdriver set. It's erm it's a carving set. Car boot sale. Car boot? It cost us a fortune in . Yeah. Car boot. Fifteen fifty? What are you doing with my my curler pins? Now there's a genuine . Betacom Acom Yeah. What's in this? Playing cards. That's a good keyring really. Yeah. I, I think I might have that, okay? Well you can have that and don't, don't want it chucked away. That's a pen. That's a pen. Car boot sale. That's a good tiepin. No that's it's a Rover tiepin. What's this one? That is buy a helicopter, buy a life you know isn't it ? Oh is it? Yeah. Hang on. Put them in there. I bought you that. Yeah. There's your other allen key. Now what's it ? You! I find things two years later. That's for turning on and off radiators. Oh! The one you've been looking for for ages? Yeah. So That's broke innit? Mm. What you doing John? You taping? Yeah. Yeah. Everybody? Yeah. Just talk normal. You know just behave normal as if it, as if you don't know it's there. Why? I have to use the tapes up in normal conversation. What for? I'm doing a survey. Oh. How many people talk? Yeah. I I think er er it's That's right, yeah. it's just to erm something to do with the English language really. Mm. Mm. They want to know what type of conversations people have. I really want it on all the time now. Well, well as people are talking in the house cos I'm getting behind with the tapes. I've gotta use ten tapes up before what? Saturday. So we have to leave it on. Oh John you had hair there look. Should be another one of these. Somewhere. You looked a bit like that when I first met you you know and I thought oh he's terri he's terribly fat there. Le let's have a look. Quite slim really. With them big long sideboards coming down. Yeah. There's a lovely photograph of you and me. Yeah. Mm. Do you remember that? Yeah I remember that night, yeah. That was at er Millionaires. Yes. Ha! Er where do you put the keys? These are the keys out of the case. They should be kept in the in there. Hey John, do you know that bell? Yeah. You could put a bit of string round it and put it round mum's neck so you know where she is. No, I want heavier string than that. Hm. Put these things in the black bag That's car boot. behind you on the floor. That's for the car boot sale. Will you get some sellotape Trish and stick that on to that bag. Have you got all the suits and things in there? Have you got them out of here as well? No. I haven't done that cupboard yet. I've only just done this one. Right. In the car boot? No I'm gonna keep that. That's my jockstrap. That's my good jockstrap. Well do you want your, your box thing? Yeah where's the box? In there. Oh I wanna keep that. Jockstrap. It's a good one this is. The one with the box. I'm not throwing that away. Right, put it in the box. And lift me the box up there. Right. Did something fall out?put it in then. I want you to the box. It's not easy. Here. Er it won't fit in. It won't come in! Take the white one out and Er it won't fit. I can't get it in. Never heard such rubbish. Should have seen me and mum in the loft then. Oh we must remember we've got christmas paper up there. Give us your box then and I'll put it . Totally bald. You look nice. I'm not. Don't think they've got any smell in them any more. No. No, they're a few years old them are. Put my weight training gloves up there. You should soak them in some stuff. That's right. John. Hey? You should soak them in some stuff. Is that ? You must have bought me that and I dropped it. Bought it you? Happy birthday Mary. Mm? Happy birthday. No I'm ever so thirsty. I don't know what the hell's the matter with me. I've been thirsty the past couple of days. I've gotta go and get a drink. Are they warm? Yeah. Right, lift the chair over the for me. You're not putting them in the car boot sale mum. Mm? Don't put them in the car boot sale. Do they still fit you mum? Mm? Do they still fit you? Put the kettle on? Mm? No I haven't, no. D what somebody s ask me to? No. Well what do you ask me if I put the kettle on for? Just thought you might have done. No I had a drink of erm squash. What about hey! Johnnie. We're looking through that Mary. They good quality? Mm. Yeah. or something. Yeah. They're a nice pattern. Nice pattern on them. That's about twenty years old. Yeah, nice ones. The lady that lived opposite me mum brought them down. Yeah. What wee Mary? Solid stainless steel. What does it say? Solid stainless steel, yeah. If it had said solid silver I'd have been down the h down the s down the high street . What's this anyway? Mm? What's that? It's an armband that you wear when somebody dies. To show that you're in mourning. You gonna save this purple wool? No, don't don't even know Yeah. what it is. Cos it's not elastic. purple wool. Soak them wooden balls. What for? Get the smell back. Soak them in some perfume and stuff. Oh perfume? Yeah. But does any erm What's that Mary? Just an empty box John but I'm probably keeping it for erm Scrap. Was it, did I buy you them? The dust that's in there. I won't get rid of this ski stuff, the goggles and things, no? No keep the goggles and that, yeah. Keep the ski stuff, yeah. Oh. I mean this ought to go in the paper really. What? Your camera? Put it down there on the floor please. This ought to go in the paper Mary, not boot not the car boot. Car boot, no way. Well you won't get a decent price for it at a car boot sale John. No. Where do you want these? Cupboard please. Your best bet is to put that in The Advertiser. Yeah, it's too late er what day is it today? It's too late Tuesday. for this week. We'll keep the fish knives and forks? Yeah, yeah. It'll have to go in The Advertiser. It's too late now isn't it? Er Brian could have had that . Mm. It had the right colour in it as well. Round his neck. It would have gone with his colours wouldn't it? Yeah, it's the right colour as well. Keep it out in case he wants it. Probably tell me what to do with it. That camera, the camera equipment ought to go in The er Advertiser not the car boot sale. of Y The Y magazine. Where's the Y? Have y have you chucked the Y out? Mm? Have you chucked it out? What? The Y. Yeah. I've got no money anyway. Have we still got that? What is it? Let's drink it. Mm? What is it mum? Let's drink it. What's that? What is it? Oh champagne? Mm. It's time we drunk it. It's for the first christening. Oh it'll be vintage then. Yeah. What christening? That's what I'd like, that's what I said to her, it'll be vintage. to drink it. Y what are you doing with them? I don't know. I thought we were chucking them all away? Should do Pair, pair of trousers for it. Yeah. Ge get rid of them. Eh? I want a pair of trousers for it. See her. You were lending them to this one here. Will I never go back. No. I might. You can buy your own. Right. You should have a pair. Yeah. In your room. No. If there's some missing. I haven't got any in my room. You took them to Coventry and left them there then. No. No I don't think so cos I've never took that with me. Is that two jackets? Mm? Is one of those mine? I don't know John. How can I tell the difference between yours and mine. Sizes. By the size. Beside mine were split. Yeah. That's mine. Mine were split. Car boot sale. Anything else up there? Come on. Mm, I don't know whose them are. They're probably the ones I used to . We need another bag. Yeah Oh I shouldn't let them go for any less than five pound a pair. Yeah. Mary. Bible. Bible. Keep it. Yeah keep that Mary. Never chuck a holy book away. Why? Bad luck? It's what? Never throw the holy book away. You can take it to church er next time we go . It is isn't it? It's gone yellow with age. Mm. The word of the lord. Matthew Mark Luke and John. Bless the bed that I lay on. You can see mum carrying that to church. Under her arm. Well that should be downstairs and read every night. One page. That should be downstairs and either one or two pages read every night. Why? By one person. To learn something about it. Why? Because it's important. Cos it's what? Important. Is that, is that it's not a catholic bible is it? No. It's a muslim bible. It's just any bible isn't it? A christian bible. Mm the , the mass. And the priest, and the . Might be a catholic bible. Holy orders and a priest. Mm. Well not everything's gonna fit in that black bag is it? Where you going? To get the phone. Well why don't you answer it up here? downstairs. Isn't it funny? Look, look at how it's erm I mean it's never out of the box. No. It's worn. Yeah. No matter how careful I am with this lead it gets a knot in it. How much were these Mary? Can you remember? They were at least ten pound a pair. Were they? Yeah, at least. Think they were about ten fifty. Eh? Well, if we make fifty quid it'll pay the fifty quid for the transporter costs won't it? Well I was hoping we'd get a bit more. To go towards Well it depends what we've got. the poll tax. Depends what we've got, yeah. Yeah. He's in and out of there looking thin and sorry for himself. How are we doing? Er you chucking them away? with that jumper and a pair of jeans that don't fit any more. Anything else in here? We took those out of there and put them in your little box. They will do up there. You'll need to put those out. They will be out of date now. Right. Is the Y did you chuck the Y out? Chuck what out ? The Y. Look in the bin. Under the stairs. Under the Is it? Oh My teeth. I'm cleaning the plaque off my teeth. Well what are you doing with the those unicorn things? Yeah, they should be with the camera. They put them in there for now. Oh there's some envelopes. Yeah. get some stamps. I've run out of stamps. Trisha . I have to list Mm? I will have to list, when I put the camera in the paper I'll have to list everything that's in there, in the bag. And put it on a piece of paper and put it on the notice board so that if anybody rings up you can say well this is what it is. Mm. And just reel off what's written down. Yeah. Sh right, she's done my doors. Where's she gone? For a fag I suppose. Having a fag. Stevey-boy . Today? Don't say anything just yet but Yeah. Because she shouldn't be here. Mm. That's . That's gotta go downstairs. This can go back in the cupboard. Did you like my card I sent you? Which one? Car boot. Have you seen that? Dunno. Yeah I think so Mary. Well what do you want to do with them? I don't know. Well it's only christmas erm it's only a christmas thing. Is it, is it, is it a special collection? No no, it isn't. Mm? I don't think it is. It's just a christmas christmas gift. Suppose it might go, souvenir. Mm. I don't, I don't know how much you, you you could ask for it? I don't know. Tommy bought it over for my mother. Mm. It's erm it's Disney isn't it? Is it? Disney? Yeah. Well you'd have to ask at least five wouldn't you? Mm something like that yeah. Five or between five and ten. Do you wanna get rid of it? Yeah. See I think it's is it too late for the er the Y this week? I I dunno, I think it's Tuesday isn't it? Is it? I'll go and have a look. Is that it in this room, more or less? I think so. I'll take this downstairs. And take the rubbish down. What are you doing with this water? Mm? What are you doing with the water? Oh well try and finish your doors. Rick you smell. We're never short of mugs? They must be in the in the washer. They must be in the dishwasher. Yeah. Still working. Do yo want to run me up Mary? What John? Do you want to run me up? Ring you up? Run me up. Do I want to run you up? Why can't you run yourself up? Well there's never any place to park. Or I'll run you up while you run in to shop and I'll go and turn round. Being as you've got the money. Wants, it wants to go now. Er the Sunday market's back at Elmchurch Redditch This Sunday and every Sunday Elmchurch Redditch Sunday market and car boot sale. Situated between Elmchurch and Redditch on the main A four four one Birmingham to Redditch road. Opposite . Well which car which car boot sale do you want to go to? That's why I'm just now er I've just read out. There's that one. Well what one did you want to go to? I don't know where they are Mary. I thought you knew all about it. Well the car boot sale. Have I never took you down there? Yeah, but I thought you had one in your mind. Because you've been badgering me for weeks to go to a car boot sale. Yeah well there was an advert in the paper about a car boot sale under covers in the Redditch market area. You know where they park, that the traders park their vans? Yeah. In there. But I haven't seen it since. Probably nobody went to it. But there's the advert for the Sunday market. And it's got a phone number. If you wanted to phone to see what time you should be there. Well any time really. They're rolling up at about half past seven. Half seven? Mm. The the dealers are, yeah. Cos I've see them, seen them going in on Sunday. But there's no point in going early. Cos there'll be nobody there. Mm can you pay for this advert Mary? Oh there it is. Giant undercover car boot sale every Sunday, nine till two, car park number two, Kingfisher centre. Which is car park number two? Erm by the town hall. Oh that big one? Mm. Well I mean we could go and have a look. If you go and have a look and see how many people are in there. Mm. Does it say how much? Five pound Is it? You know I don't like paying out. Mary Yeah I know you don't like par Paying out. paying out, mm. I'll come with you. Yeah. You drop it in and I'll I'll I'll turn the car round. Have you got bring some money with you cos I haven't got any. Come on it'll only take us, we'll only be five minutes. I'm coming. I keep walking in this rubbish you've swept in the Is that hand cleaner? Er no. Think it's oil. Yeah it's oil. You're a terrible bugger for putting things things. Well I put things in cupboards. Oh I see. That's the same, that's like Geoff you know? Yeah, it's I don't know. Don't you want it? You used to bring one home . It's probably this one. No. them? Yeah. Did you hear what I said? Yeah. Is he gonna pack it up? Otherwise you'll, you'll not speak to him at all cos I shall just pick the phone up and say He'd get you into trouble. and say you're not in. Well I I'll tell him when you're on nights and not to phone John and I'll go and phone him like yesterday. I'll go and phone him, put ten P in the phone and he rings me at the phone box. Well that's alright. I don't mind how many times he rings you at the phone box. Now what is this? It's oil. What's it say on that label? Heavy duty hand cleaner. . Sling it. Throw it out. Throw it out? Yeah. Where? Down the drain? In the In, in that bag. Anyone want some hand cleaner? I'll sling that tonic water thing up on the next shelf. Ah be careful. Erm just check. Be careful he tells me. It's thinners. I wanna label on it really. Where are the labels? one that lid on. Yeah it's a Yeah. It's a glass cleaner. What's that one? Yeah, put put your tins in there and put thing over there where Ooh that stinks. Is it empty? No. it might be leaking. Mm. No it's not empty. No it's not leaking. Don't know what was in there. If it leaks it'll blow the house up anyway. There's my It's always been in there. bugger. Life what a bugger bugger bugger. Oh what a bugger bugger. And a bugger bugger bugger. that up there? Oh that's it. And your paintbrushes . I know. What's that? What's that? Paint. Paint? Spray paint I think. De-icer. What's that one? That's off the car T-cut. Matt black. That's the piece off the light outside. Mm. What's that one? Oh we don't want that. That's empty. That's empty as well. Ah Rick! Look what I've found! Oh Rick look what I've found. Oh Rick look what I've found. I'll tell on you. What is it? Throw it out. It's glue. Solvent. Shall I strike a match? No it's all gone. Yeah it's gone. I I've had it for years. Now I think this is that's brake fluid. I've put them up there. What's this? Bloody rubbish. Where was that? In there. I'll bollock him for sticking his rubbish in my cu cupboards. What's that? Tha I want that, yeah. That's a special. Who, who's had all the nails out of them? Look. They're expensive to buy. You shouldn't vandalize them. Is that alive or dead? Dead. Shift all that junk in one cupboard. I'm just putting it all in one place, yeah. I'm trying to get an empty one. So that I can put this sort of stuff somewhere frigging else. Are they off his bike, or what? Well they're off a pushbike, yeah. So they wanna go to the car boot sale? Well I dunno I, they're not mine, they're Brian's. Mm. So I can't really speak What this bit? That's that's important as well. That's for doing . It's a petrol bomb. Eh? Yeah it is a bomb. It's a potential bomb. Oh my god! Look at all this stuff. I'm pissed off with that thing stuck up me nose. Ah . I'll take them to work. I need them. Are there any more in there? Yeah That's Malcom's. That's Brian's. I could take these back. Take these back to the boys. Cos I don't need them. They're they're the sort of things that you could never get hold of, you know, that we always kept ourselves. So I brought them home with me so I could, I could take in actual fact I could take them back. Cos they're no good to me. And I don't suppose they can get them now. I'll take them back tomorrow. Ta take all them back for those at work. Cos I don't want them. Better keep them. These could go to the car boot sale. That one's brand new. What's that? Mm? Rubbish? No. Not really, no. Isn't it? None of that's rubbish Mary actually. We'll keep it. Whatever's keep everything in there Mary. Oh, see if I can find something to er Oh, bring the next one down. They Yeah. might fit into the next one. I thought they went in. There's a pair of overalls. They should be in the car. Then if you had a puncture and it was raining or something. They're paper overalls. Just put them on and throw them away when you've finished. Er do one at a time. car boot sale. Have to be careful. Won't stay in there. Yeah, car boot sale. Yeah, car boot sale. Car boot sale. That's yours. Rubbish. Was that in there? And another one. And another one. Well this is brand new actually. It's a brand new torch that is. Just wants a battery. bought you that ? Yeah. So, what do you want, a medal? Torch. Have you told Norman you're getting a car? No I haven't seen him yet. I I must try and cop him tomorrow. And give him the good news. I'll s I've gotta say to him I've taken your advice Normal I'm I'm having the two one six G T I. I'll say to him I'm taking your advice, I'm having the two one six G T I model. Yeah I'll take that to work. To the boys at work. Well that's it. That's virtually empty now. So what about these? There's nothing in here I can chuck away. I've checked them . Checked them. Everything we need. There's, I mean there's stuff in here we need. No place else to put it. What's them leggings? They're my leggings. They want washing. Can you wash them? Being as you want them out. So you shouldn't try Yeah but if I wash them where are you going to put them? Well dunno. I don't think they do want washing. I think I did wash them and they wouldn't come any cleaner. Did you? Oh. Put them back in here. Conned again. Tools. Okay? We may get rid of that stuff. I'll bring home a few big boxes tomorrow to put Can you? Yeah. this stuff in. Okay. Well we'll leave this, leave this in here. I can take the erm that's it. As long as it isn't over the vice. Cos the vice has been going rusty. The vice has been going rusty cos of the dryer. Oh here's some more here. There's another one here. we don't want them now. See we can tape all these again. Look, I'm fed up of this. Right. That's it's home from now on. Oh. I found your chamois. That's Brian's. Brian bought a new one. But mine has disappeared. I mean it doesn't matter, I can use that one. It's all the same to me. These are mine. I bought these with my own money. What's all this black pudding? I need that Mary. I need them. It's er fuel pipe. Well that's the scout socket off the T V and that's fuel pipe. Put it back up there. Put it in here. Well don't you need to go through it? That that, no. I I know what's there. There's nothing there to get rid of. Except this. I can get rid of these cos er it's packed up now. Being as the car's going on Monday I don't actually need the gemini er alarm. Might as well get rid of it. Treat it as junk and throw it away although it cost me more than fifty four. It's no good if it don't work. No, car boot sale. Can we tape that all together? Yeah. Might as well get rid of it eh? There's about four or five of them in there now. There's what? There's about four or five of them in there now. Then somebody next week and pay a pound for one. Oh that's right. It does happen. I want all that. Stick it up on the top shelf then. over there. Stick it up where? Er What's all them? Do you want these? Oh yeah, I want them. Where do you want them? Mm. Might find a job for him some time you see. We don't really want it. It's car boot sale. There's another up there. Think it was hanging up there look. Yeah. Keep it. By the . Shall I? Leave it up there for now. Catch it. Keep it. I might want to cut your head off. Oh look what I found. Oh that was a kit. Mary. That was the kit. Right, leave them in there Mary. Well that's it for that cupboard. That's it. Er did you clean my ? Yeah It's useless is it? Yeah. Crap. A thing like a a brillo pad does the same. Give us that out. I mean that's going rusty. If that goes rusty it's no bloody good. dry it doesn't matter . Do you want the last link in, link in the chain? Keep that Mary yeah. It's handy. Well, it's handy for me. What about that? Er, chuck it away. I don't really want the bits. That's for the washing machine. What's in that? Oh that's . It's cleaning fluid. Special. Special cleaning fluid. Somebody went to a lot of trouble to get me that. Well I mean that's it. We, we've been all the way round now. Mm? We've been all the way round now. I've made tea. I'll go and pour it out and then I'll . Er are you having, are you putting any dinner on today? Well you told me you didn't want any. No. Well I'll just have a I'll just have a couple of erm lamb sandwiches. Er what did you say? It was in the drawer. Somebody had put it in the drawer. There's a nice pink colour Rick. I don't know what they've got in this one. What's that? It looks pink, the dog food. Oh. It's probably . I don't know what it is. They put all sorts of animal bits in these. Yeah. If you live in Australia it's kangaroo meat. Mm. I couldn't believe it about Jean's nephew though John. Yeah it's funny. He always did look a funny sort of chap though didn't he? But I liked him, cos he was so funny. It He he's an alright lad he is. He's really funny. I thought he the way he acted and I I thought he was er a real comedian. Here you are. Go on eat it up. Hurry up. Hurry up and then we go out for a walk. Go on. pink skirt and a blouse. It's over there. Go and frigging eat it. Come on you. What's the matter? Got you! Ricky. Go on. Hurry up. You won't go out. You won't go out if you don't eat it. I'm telling you. Rick, your mum's there Rick. Walking all over the grass that I haven't cut yet. We need bread out the freezer. Will you go and sit down and have your supper now? I'm gonna do myself a sandwich. For your supper? Yeah. And no more to eat? No. Well, I might have a sandwich later. If I'm starving. But I don't want a dinner. I know. And look at how long it lasted as well. Could have bought that this morning. Er and I had every intention of Mm? I had every intention of doing it this morning. I ran after you this morning Oh. as you went out. I never saw you. Yeah. And er I said to Brian has John gone? He said he's just revving up the car engine. And I and I run to the door and you'd just drove off. You! It's no good coming over and looking at me like that Rick. You cheeky dog. You cheeky. the cheekiest dog in England. Ah! This isn't yours Rick. This is mine. I'm going to enjoy this Rick. If I can cut it without cutting me hand off. Oh I'll tell you what I will have. What? Yeah. Some of them. Some what? Ugh. Some of what? What's that? Oh yeah? Supposed to be able to . One for you. One for me. Don't know what can I have with it? Mm? What can I have with it? Erm vegetables? Or just eat them on their own? I'll have some raw vegetables. Some raw carrots and stuff. Raw carrots and stuff? You'll be lucky. There's none here anyway. Is this my tea Mary? Yeah. Yeah. You sure? Ooh! Tinned tomatoes. The dog's gonna Rick go and eat your own food. Rick go and eat your food. I don't want them just yet. I'm not that hungry. I'm going out for a minute anyway,. Where are you off to? I'm going to see . Well I want to know if he loves you that much when's he gonna take you away from all this? Don't know. Well ask him. Tell him your mummy wants to know. If he loves you so much, when is he gonna take you away from all this? All what? Everything. This way of life and living and when's he gonna take you to live with him and everything? Mm? Tell him I wanna know. You're joking. He's got more sense. There are certain things you can do with a sixteen year old. Mm? There are certain things you can do with a sixteen year old. But living with them isn't one of them. I mean you just kept breaking your promises What's that Mary? playing golf Monday and Tuesday. And you you sat down, you worked and then you said chase him up and we'll play golf. All day that Monday and all day that Tuesday. And then you just come home and you say oh with my best friend. What do you do yesterday as well? Yesterday didn't do anything. I didn't. I got up and took you up town. Bought you lunch. You bought me lunch? Where? What do you buy me? What did you eat? Had an iced bun. That's right. And I bought it. Mm. Same difference. So how ? Have we used it all? Mm. Well . I'll have a word with Roger. See if he can get some more. Oh don't bother. Oh yeah I want to buy some Jeyes Jeyes fluid. Fluid the garden. Mm. Ricky. Go and eat your food and stop dribbling. Where is he? Oh it's alright. Well see if it comes up a bit. I mean it could be that there's air in it somewhere. I don't know why it would suddenly start losing pressure. If you can get rid of that rubbish tomorrow and that Yeah. there, and the doors and that'll be a good a job really. Yeah. That up there. I want it to kind of and of course I ended up buying more stuff! So I'll let Where'd I put it? In the back,if you take this cupboard it doesn't matter. Actually, I can eat that tomorrow. Well you've got them spare ribs here,. Yeah, I'll eat them tomorrow as well. Uncanny! Move that! I was talking to the gannet! The gun? The gannet! Oh the gannet! I'm trying to eat . No. I think he, must have and it sat on the floor again! Did it? Mm. Aha. Yeah. From where you're standing. I wonder where he's put it then? Oops, and there's cats everywhere you're walking! Did I tell you what we had in our cup this morning didn't I? This corner is . Yeah it has. Ha! What about the then? Better keep a label on them or else! That have to give it to Ded, she's got a car. Oh right. It's the for us car tax. Oh is it? Yeah, that's what that is, D L V Swansea. Oh right. as a reminder. So you're tax will be up soon then? Can't say that . Oh, it has come then? Yester erm in the last couple of hours. I'm feeling as if there's a Yeah. I hate that! Puts you right off eating! We can't have a new car an , and go to frigging Amsterdam can we! Course you can! Oh no! You're not doing the same as up there are you? Yeah. Taping people's conversation, Yeah. and come for I am. You get twenty pounds worth of book tokens. Yeah. ! What? ! Why not? I know. Well, we'll put the dog on it,if you've got twenty five involved! He's coming round to feed you,see which one he does quick ! The girl up on the end of the road was walking round with one.. Oh erm I don't know what her name is, Dot I think her name is. Dot, Dotty. Oh I think, I don't . They go off today, but I don't if it recorded anything. recorded it today. Had my earphones on, and we all sat down at the table. Mm. We quickly put it on and we erm tried to have a conversation and then we'd walk off and I'd ! Yeah, cos they wouldn't take me to bloody Amsterdam! Yeah. I never told you told you, about the lot that said hello to me today and waved. Who? Val. Oh! No, she's going mad! Is it Sarah. She's going senile, I tell you! She said to John, have you ever been to Tenerife? Don't go to and left my kids at home. She hasn't brought us nothing back! Did she? She usually brings me a box of and and that. Oh. Urgh Before she goes. I wonder why she didn't? Oh. cos she's left the kids with you? I've gotta go anyway. Where you gonna go? around today. Was he? Has he been to . No. No. I dunno. Look what I've, I've stuffed down the hole! Says he eat No, he's coming . the last lot! Really? And then he's coming back on Friday again. Oh! I didn't know he'd even been out the first time. Yeah, he come round. He, he phoned you you mus , you mustn't have been in. We're never in! Oh. Oh oh! Oh well. He removed a lot of the stones, and then John poured the stones he made him Yeah. up the stones and so the , they like they're alight. Did he Yeah. ? They come back and check up on Friday. Very good! Right then, I must go! Oh! See you soon! Let me get up! See you dad! No, I can show myself out! What? Are we going out then for my birthday? Yeah definitely! Right. What? Me and Mary's going out on her birthday. You ain't! We are! Are you taking her out then? He's working! Are you taking her out? He's going out with me Mary. Yeah, I'll see you're alright! then bye John! Yeah. Bye then! Bye! I was having a sing-along! What? I'm not! Quantum Leap's on! Quick! Come on then! Who said are we having a sing-along? Dunno. You could of stopped up, we're alright, I'm not tired. Aren't you tired? It's just part of the perfect . There's your show on. Yeah. Lovely! Leap Quantum Leap. Oh! Yeah. Oh! Oh! Monday. Monday. Monday. Here we go!. John the subtitles are perfect! I'm . Oh! Is that . They don't come out on the other side! Oh! Not at all? The . That, that's why I got me, the other T V. Ricky, come on in ! Well the C D works Mary! The C D works okay. Don't work? That's alright, I've wired that up now. Oh, wonder But what that was? well I'm trying to sort the wires out, I'm I was that short of time, I had to cut some more lines up. Gosh it's . Want another ? Take the kettle and go! Hop it! How's your swimming? Alright. They're normally out tonight she's let me down again. The police haven't shan't bother with her any more now! I take it want it now. She doesn't phone me up ! I'm, I'm going out tomorrow so . You cheeky dog! you can keep it! Got erm pins and needles and in this from, in here down you know? And years ago I used to have sciatica,round the nerve and but it's only happens when I sit and then the last thing so I went to the doctors the other day and what they do, they see us around bash on, on the knee on the nerve and she said, all my muscles have gone! Oh! And and Brian said I'm not quite here! It's all round here so the less I by here, all the and all muscles had all gone and they're all pressing on a, on a nerve and that's what's causing the problem and she said that that was what . No, no reason. Ha? No reason. No, no reason no? Erm so she put said that I shouldn't erm Oi Lights! When you out you left every light on ! Blimey! Guess I'm back again . No So that's No just leave it in my chair. I won't be able to move tomorrow! if you want. last night. It was real hard work! Is it the girls again?. Won't do any more ! I used to go there during the day What's he got mate? What's he got? What's he eating? from work What's he eating? and but it's pure keep fit! No, running about it's up and down, and stretching your legs and your muscles in your . Oh! And, lots of floor exercises as well. Oh! But yeah, it's half and half yeah. Is it? Yeah it's very good! And, what's the difference between that and keep fit and the erm aerobics ? Aerobics is the running. Where you're running on the spot and you're running up and down you know Yes. what we used to do at the gym? We used to do training really tha , that's aerobics but keep fit is you know in one spot all night and you work your body out. It's very good! I couldn't no where near keep up! Cos I haven't been for two years since I've been to that one! That's I shall ache tomorrow! In the afternoon. I dunno my limbs aren't too bad actually . And her mouth's still shut ! I'm thirsty! Wha , what are you getting? Trish? Great! I've got what did they say to you? Erm well, you know there's a new college? Yeah. Well I went there and I had to fill in another application and they've set me up with er another interview at erm Health Centre, and that's tomorrow. Oh good! So hopefully that'll be my placement. Oh is this on the Y T S Trish? Yeah. How much is that a week? It depends if it's er employment status or not, which I'll find out tomorrow. Oh I see. If it's government paid, it'll be twenty nine fifty a week, but if it's employed status It'll be whatever Then it'll be whatever Yeah. A hundred and forty pound! What's on? What's on? Quantum Leap. Oh that's good that is. What time's your interview? Ten o'clock. I'm not sure which side it's on. Side of the road. I told you! The catch. Ay If I ca well if I catch this side it goes round to Church Hill Yeah, from here go Yeah. into town to go Wingates and tha , that way. You don't go into town. Ay Don't go to town, just catch the one that goes straight into Church Hill. You don't go as far as Church Hill! Where? You're going to Wingates aren't you? Yeah. Well you don't go as far as Church Hill then. I know but the one that goes right to Church Hill, that one. I know it, yeah yeah. But I'm not sure which side it's on. It's on the side you get off the bus. It's there somewhere just by the bus station. You ? Yeah. Are you thinking of going? Mm?yeah. Hiya Hiya! Have you done your round? Yeah you know how much this exchange is gonna cost? Yeah. What for? That's ridiculous that is,! Yeah, I know. I bet they don't do nothing! All they gotta do is take you home! That's all they go , and take you home that's all there is to do. I mean, but you'd have to pay for cos it's, you know, it must narf I wo ,an hour! I know. You need to pay for the . on mine. No well I told the bloke, I look after that my cars in the garage . You alright Ded? Yeah. Seen our gas bill? Oh my life! A hundred and forty eight pound! Ahhh God! Mine's eighty! Mine's eighty. What? Hey? Yeah, I put her on the bus. Is the kettle on? Yeah, I've just made the tea. Oh good! Berty wouldn't start yesterday. Wouldn't he? yes please dad. So he's, he's gone in the erm driver today. Has he? And yesterday he had to take it ! Oh! yesterday with a flat tyre! Eargh What's this? with rice, they're ever so nice! They really are! They look revolting! They do ! I have mine with er tomatoes for dinner. I'm going down for that job! Yeah good luck! Look better on your C V and everything else. When did you send it? Ooh, one day last week. I mean, if I stand a chance I should be hearing from any time now really. Yeah. Th ,the there's probably er you know, no rush for them. I bet they've had thousands apply! Yeah I got the sun! Do I just around it. The supermarket? Yeah . It is in this country, but they're very big in America Yeah. and Germany and over there. And they have one in Coventry. I saw another Yes. in in . Oh! Do know how much they pay their cashier's an hour? Oh excuse me! Four pound an hour they pay their cashier! Bloody hell!! Ha ha! Who does?? Yeah. Yeah, but they don't, they don't take on full time people though for all day. Ah who doesn't? Oh here! They don't take on full time cashiers. Yeah but no but you don't want to be a cashier. No I know I don't but , it's lovely! Ay Just a bit wet! Yeah, wet yeah? Have you been out? No, I haven't No taken the dog out yet. I'll come with you. I've just got up! Just this, tidying up about ten minutes I always fill the house up with junk! You and me too! Come on let me it! Yeah yeah,. Soon clear it. now? Why do you always want outside, it should be in any case . She said how will he pay on the ? She says well, we can only take up to the value of your car,, which is more than they did! A lot more, well we'll have to see won't we?it could be nice .. That's all they wanna know Ded! Tha , that's exac , that's exactly what they are now! All they wanna know how much you're gonna pay! How much money they're taking off you! Now who else had the same problem? I think it was Colin I told him about paint work under the bonnet, Mark had they'd mentioned some paint work had gotta be dealt with and that passenger door with the draught and I told them that. Anything else, was there anything else, wrong? No he, he only told me the two things, I wrote them down. But the girl, I mean it just shows you, they don't know! No. You can she said to me G T A have only just started doing they say it's a new model she said, is it the new shape? I just looked at her! Oh course, it's got to be hasn't it! Oh no! I tell you something, if I had to go there, my God! He'd have gone a bit Don't it sounds! Oh, yeah Pete's in again tonight? Oh yeah. Yeah,. They're coming in three times a week. Oh,I'm as it is, so . I think I've got myself again I go that last week, oh I couldn't move last week! Oh it's well and truly bad! What time you gotta fetch your car then Monday? well sometime Monday. I've, gotta get down there first. I'm on holiday next week. Yeah. So we'll run you down. Okay. . I erm I go to Jean for my dinner. Yeah. Smart car! Sorry? Smart car! I bet it is, yeah. and all that. And it's all white! Yeah, bumpers and everything? Like the Ma the Manta one, that was all white wasn't it? They couldn't get a red one. The only thing is, is keeping the bloody thing clean! It's between our house and shops wasn't it, the health centre? Or is on the ? It's in the centre cos, I remember where to look for it. It's the other side of the road, I'm telling you! By the bus stop. New building. Do you know when we used to walk up to the shopping centre from our house? It's just there on the side. Just before the car park. oh. Mm I'm sure that's up there. If you to the centre Trish, they'll tell you where to go. Oh,yellow gates? Yeah. I'll ju , just on the side of the Trish I'll you yes, yeah. for okay? Oh, When you get off other side of the road. Go up at the fence and just ask for will tell you. Yeah they would, just ask where the health centre is it's there somewhere! The centre. I think it's just on the corner innit Ded? As you go Where? er, by the bus stop. Yeah. By the bus stop Same road You mean before? The bus stop before that? No. Now get off at the centre, just in At the centre case I'm wrong, cos I know there was a doctor's surgery there but I, I don't know whether it's the Chatswold health centre it's . Well that's . She's got something to do. So who was down at the bus on her own? So she wouldn't get a bollocking? Probably yeah. That's no way, cos she down there whe time was it, was it half seven-ish I mean, it's too late really innit? Yeah . This is a, in today's society in any case! He ain't got a clue, now ! Don't have to take I don't think. Yeah. him I thought, up him!! Weren't he excited ! Got , see you later ay Yeah. Yeah, off you go then, let's have a look at you, come here! She looks awful modern! Yeah, except they're only it's somebody who Alright then innit? Yeah, you look That's alright now. alright Trish. See you later,tara! Cheerio pet! If you're not coming home give us a ring! She won't be home early. Oh well. Mark left his gold chain here, it's under the . And just stood there? Oh no he stood up . Oh did you find his slipper that's missing? Yes, I'll string him up! Where was it? In the bag! In the side pocket where he'd put it! The dog must be at your dad's he kept saying,just take me home ! You know, I what did I say? I say it'll be downstairs. Mhm. Did you check this bag ! Yes. Yes. Well you didn't check it good! Where was it,he said ! Must of been in the side pocket. You must of put it there ! I says I didn't! I says you put it there, I said cos you used it last! I says I left it there for your . Well , is the milk outside there ? No, I think that's the empty one in Is it? there. Oh! I've, I've no, that'll be done. Okay. Have to get something do you? Well I was gonna come and have a look at the Fiesta that's all.. Oh no, leave it today. I mean, we'll go up and see if we can start it Yeah. and, you know, if it starts it'll be alright for another week then. Cos I'm on holiday next week, it might be easier. Are you? Yeah. Oh I'll, I'll have a look at it next I'm working Monday, but I'm off the rest of the week. Well I'm off on Tuesday. I'll do it next Tuesday then Alright. So hopeful the weather's gonna be Yeah Is it still raining? Yeah oh. Oh it's stopped now though. It's always how's thi , how's this? I am pissed off with that bleeding golf as well! Golf? Oh , how is he? He's took it bad, he's a fine weather but it seems like Oh then that settled it. So he'd, he'd gone in the car today then? Yeah. Cos it's raining! How much was this? Mm? How much was it? Well I payed nearly two grand seven hundred and fifty pound insurance. On the, on the cost of the bike. He's wrecked it already! No I know Chris told me cos he saw him on the morning at the garage then he . When do you have your car then dad? Er Monday hopefully.. Do think I'll get five ? No, cut it up I meant sew it up. When you , how do you tell? Have a little sign up, sideboard for sale too good to be in here! Yeah it's a good idea though, get hold of that cos that's gotta as well. Well It's rotten now . It's Mark fault though, if I kept hold of it! Put it outside. The water will go, go down to it now, won't last five minutes so I'll cut it up. Mm. She did want it, but it's Mark Gotta go up the town for anything? Erm I hadn't really, but I can do, I mean I don't mind, if you wanna go up town. Weren't gonna get nothing, I was on , I only wanted some money. Oh! , I ain't I ain't got two pennies to rub together! I'll erm Did I give you the pools money? I haven't done this week yet. Do it on Thursday, so that Thursday. That'll be on Thursday morning. All the we had we did this week or were there no draws? No, it's only this week And er we didn't Forth week this week didn't have many of them with ours. We'll have to see you just do it. Bloody hope ! Get my house! Oh! Dad did you hoover in the middle of the room? Yeah. Hello Ricky! You know that big bloody place has gone up now! I hope it sucked up, I was really worried about that! But that should be alright now if you Don't buy it on it's own when they go wrong costs a lot of money! I was worried why am I bleeding the system after I've done the radiators and changed them, you know repair the pipe work. I've turned the taps on to refill it and the pressure taps they're in there till we fill the I was going round, finding trickle here I was going round bleeding all the radiators, the whole system had to be drained down! I was upstairs bleeding the radiators, all air hisssss air whooshing out everywhere I thought I better check to see when I come in, that thing was full of water! There, in there! Yeah. He says fill the boiler and overflowed! so I did. And it's overflowing, that's the overflow there! And you can see it's running down from the bottom, the pressure innit you see? Yeah, here. I'll have to get some water out of it now. For some reason it's come up. Now where's that band? I've been looking for that all week! The what? The bloody key! The key to the bloody boiler! I see it. Yeah I do wanna go up town Ded. I just wanna call in the garage to see my mate Rob cos I wanna take him a load of stuff back to the garage. Mhm. That's Oh! Cos I'll take it back. What ? No. Mm. Want a cup of tea? I've just had a cup of tea! Must of been another one. Don't want another one! During February. He wants to sell the . Does he? He likes them here give us Oh! now. How did you know? Down in the middle now. I knew there was a water leak there but if it hadn't with rain that it definitely was a water leak. That's the only way the pressure would be down and the leak with water you know, it had to be a water leak. My turn to er cook today. What you having? Potatoes, some broccoli erm Brian's having kiev, chicken kievs Mary's having something out of our bake something and I'm having cold lamb . They got tonight. lamb you know, the what's it one? pack? It's very in some sauce. Barbecue? Yeah they're really nice! Oh spare ribs barbecue Spare rib, yeah. spare rib! Is that home made barbecue sauce? I think it is yeah. Yes I li , I like home made, I make home made sauce. And spare ribs? Here's your joining the frigging A A! A A ! And then swopping the car with twelve months A A on it! I think we done last time, for twelve months. Will you get your money back? No, I've already paid for twelve months. Oh! And it'll automatically from the time I tell them. I see. I'll go and see them this morning. It's not such a bad thing is it? I'll go and see them I can do that, they'll have to . You'll do that then. No, I'll put my big trainers on if I can find them! I yesterday. Did you? Did you? Hee hee again! I keep being , I was really despondent! Didn't like the idea. See the ! Thick as two short planks ! Ded, do you know rats? Yeah. They've come from next door gotta be they've bor , burrowed down a ha , another Yeah, what did the bloke say when he come? He said, oh yeah you've definitely got rats. What they gonna do about it? Erm well they we , came again yesterday, put some more stuff down it's erm it's wheat with With Mixed with, put poison in some rat poison in it yeah, and they eat it. He said what ever you do he said don't cover the hole up, he said they like they like to, they like to see light. Oh! So we've left the hole uncovered with stuff all the way around it. Well what type of rats, are they just big black rats? No, I think it's a brown one according to Mary it looked brown it brown one not so bad, I mean if it was erm if it was a grey one would of been a sewer rat! Oh! Coming up , which would have been more serious, maybe, cos it meant there might have been a break somewhere or We was on about rats the other day at work cos Jackie was saying on her way cos her husband works in ooh God! What's that place called? Erm Dad, what's that, where's that where's where's the M forty two go, right to Wigan at the M forty two. Down a bit, sort of like, it's going up er the M one innit? Leicestershire, that way. Yeah but, before i , it ended there it ended before that didn't it? What's the name of the place I'm thinking of? Tamworth? Tamworth, yeah, he works in Tamworth and she has to fetch him cos he doesn't drive, sometimes she fetches him a rather that him get the bus home and so she was going along the main she said the name of the road, but I can't,th , the number of the road but I can't remember she says she saw rats just trotting down the side of the road,you know ! Mm. It's as though they were on a family outing ! Yeah. She couldn't believe it! Then we got onto the subject, you know, the plague we a , we all reckon that it's gonna come back. I mean, Birmingham is over run with rats! They're everywhere! London's the same! That's the sewer rats. Awful isn't it! They just multiply in there's millions of them! Why don't they do something about it? And th , think they're having a real problem in Birmingham as well the they're, trying to get rid of them and they're down the sewers all the time trying to get rid of the bloody things! Cos they're coming up you see Yeah. See any crack in the drain or anything like that, all of their burrowing and they'll get through it! Mm. And that's what they're doing, they're coming into peoples gardens and rushing down the sewers again, you know? Mark's playing pool tonight. We went to erm a party on Saturday one of the men that he works with, it was his fiftieth birthday and of course fifty years ago was the war wasn't it, nineteen forty two? Yeah. And er it was brilliant, the disco was! It was on the, the theme was the nineteen forties and Mm. it was fancy dress! I mean we didn't know this, well Mark knew, but I didn't know and there was some as Germans and some as English forces it was really good and it got erm the D J got all the old records and all that really was a good night! And th , the er buffet that somebody had do erm, I tell you who did it, Brian, you know Brian the tyre man? Yeah. His wife had done the buffet with Clarice remember Clarice? Yeah. Aunty they call her or something. Oh yeah , I've seen her recently, yeah. Yeah they di Was it goo buffet good? Yeah. Was it a good buffet, yeah? Very good. Cos they do that sort of thing now. Yeah they'd done the buffet and it was all it was in blue red blue and white. Mm. It was really good! A very, very good night it was. That's where you met Colin and told him I was having a new car. Yes I did. I thought I'll give him something to talk about at the garage. Yeah, I couldn't remember his name you know I know now, Colin yeah. I can remember Brian I couldn't remember Colin's name. He sat with us, him and his wife. They're a nice couple they're alright. They was telling, telling us about their son cos he's got erm a Nintendo game system, same as Mm. ours and apparently he's supposed to be brilliant on it! He knows all the short cuts and gets thousands and thousands of points on it! Mhm. I'm the highest I've got is a hundred thousand so far, Mark's up to two hundred and fifty thousand! Is he? Mind you, he plays it more than me ! It's entertaining though I mean I can understand why kids get addicted to them cos once you start, you can't stop yo you think Yeah. to yourself I'll do better next time and I'll do better next time and it's, it's all the time I must try harder next time! I mean a, I'm a little bit different cos I would, I'd you know me, I don't like putting money in anything cos I I don't like to to lose money through a a lost cause sort of thing. You twenty five Ded? Twenty eighty! Mm. I wish I was twenty five ! Well that's side A and get a couple done today it won't look so bad. So what's it for then? Get your coat on! Ay What's it for? A survey on the British language? Yeah. Ricky! Rick! Where's he going ay Are you ready Rick? Where are we going? I'll just lock up. I've got mine. the door. What sh , what shall we get what shall I get Mary for her birthday? Don't ask me! Hey? Don't ask me! What I'm doing is I'm taking her out. The girls I think Jo , Jean and George are coming down so Oh that'll be nice. if you wanna come out with us for a meal erm we're gonna go to The Fox. Oh yeah. And then we're going way up Chester, taking her up Chester. All pay for ourselves. Well I'll have to pay for Jean and George anyway. Well you don't have to pay for us though, don't worry about us. Erm I'll have to pay , cos I've got no money. Oh that's alright. So I'll put it Erm on my Access. We went out for Sunday lunch cos I don't work Sundays any more. Yeah, I know,, they're catching up are they or are pac , are they closed down? No, they just want the office closed. They don't wanna pay me you see! Who's, who's there to cash then? So nobody! What about ? They want in the office, I've gotta sort it out Monday. Take your time. Well we did. It's like erm yesterday I Don't get many figures. no yesterday we had er two, two tills one was fifty pound short and one was twenty pounds up! Well I found the twenty pound in the end but the fifty pound we couldn't find it, we checked everything so i fortunately I said to I had them re-checked on Monday during the day for cash up Yeah. and I said to Andrea, I says Andrea those two are two of the tills I'd checked yesterday in the middle of the day and they were spot on I said that money went yesterday evening! And, have you found it? No. Oh you haven't, you know where to find it if you want? Oh yeah. I got the keys Which way are you going? Well I'll go up this way, haven't combed my hair . Shouldn't worry about it mine never looks like it's been combed in any case! You know what next door's done? Somebody said it was next door. The rubbish ! The rubbish! Mary told me ! Well I mean It was terrible down here wasn't it ? wouldn't of done it. Ah they wouldn't of put it behind your car. If he had of done, it would Leonard's, not the other side. He wouldn't of put it behind the car I mean some people are stupid but Well I co , I've seen him bringing out bringing it out in bags it falls out of there! I'm not saying it was her . Are they three, three bedrooms? These along here? Oh those, I should think so, yeah. Yeah. This cos er You can't, cos you couldn't have inside. Mm didn't like the look of that one inside. God, we used to come here when we were kids you know? On the way to school. And we used to ha , we used to come down here some some evenings a gang of us remember I used to look ever so small Yeah. and you seemed ever so big at the time ! It's funny innit? Went on about erm do you remember the penny chews, like the Mm mm. the black jacks and that? Yeah. We was on about those the other day cos now they're so tiny Yeah. and when you're kids they seemed so big! in your mouth! Yeah. That's right. And one of the girls said yeah but you've grown since then, I says no, they've shrunk them! They've probably shrunk them anyway. Yeah. God, look at that! They've spent some money on this house, haven't they? It looks nice. Yeah. Ooh, look at those though! Yeah, I don't know what it is. It's pretty! That house is lovely inside. This one here? The one that's in the path. Yeah. , I said that looks nice doesn't it? Oh yeah. Before we go up the train, can we get to my house first? Yeah. I'll have to get my glasses. Yeah, just in case. . I'm just gonna . One o 'clock? One o'clock Mary said she might pop home . Oh right. Trying to kill me again! Pick your legs up quickly! Ooh you cheeky devil! Good boy! Have you seen the advert? Which one? With the bull dog tha , you know the dog you like George? Yeah. Yeah. Well the husband goes out and she's got his dinner and he's underneath sort of going Yes. his eyes light up Yeah. and he goes and sits there, and he takes she's eaten it! And his little face ! It's so funny! He's a beautiful dog! Yeah. I bet that took some setting up when they ? Ah yeah. They must be sitting there for hours with a camera! Waiting to get the right one. Oh yeah. Come on boy! Oh I so I went to work yesterday nearly killed me! Yeah. I'm not used to working Tuesdays I can't do with this break of the routine! Good boy! What you doing ? I don't even know why Theresa didn't come. Ooh excuse me! Has she ever come with you? She does occasionally but she doesn't she, she won't benefit from it cos she doesn't come No. regular enough. She's got no commitment has she? She said she'll come on a Sunday morning with me and I said I can't imagine that! no, I said to her, I said, don't you tell me you're gonna come on a Sunday morning and when I get here, you're not up, I says cos I won't be very happy about it! I says if you're gonna come make sure you're up and ready to go! We went Sunday to the baths. Yeah. It was like getting into the bath Really? there was steam coming off the water, it was red hot it was! Yeah. The computer had gone wrong overnight, and was heating it up ! All you needed was your soap and your shampoo and you'd of been alright! A few , they'll do! Put perfume on before he comes out! Get out of it! When, when me and Mark looked after him Yeah I know that. for a few days we took him up here and all up there! Yeah. I do, I shall take him round the garages and then back up here across the field, and then back home again. I'm taking him for about an hour. That takes about an hour that does. Round the garages? Round the square past Dartons past Cresser round that square then back up the other way betwe up through the factories Yeah. back up the path again and then up here. Lovely and warm today! It's nice, it's nice and mild. They're already warning of droughts aren't they? Cos we've not had enough rain! It's stupid! When's your France haven't they, I mean I know for God's sake! If you've got a water in this and our resources, than we have ourselves! Bloody disgusting! That's the same with everything isn't Mm. it, we look the country, we're ourselves. Yeah, but what we had the Conservatives have sold! We've got nothing left now! We'll never get it back No. even if it was snatched back privatised all the money would of gone! A million pound a day! Course the most sickening part of it is, that the twenty five thousand with British Telecom well they're making millions of pounds profit everyday! I know. It's all to do with money before jobs now. Oh I know, I mean we're victims of that at work! people don't count any more! No I know. I know that only too well now! time to leave this place! Yeah well, when we go to Canada we might not come back! No I wouldn't blame you! You'd have to sell my house for me, and get Yeah. some of the money over. At least you, you get paid for what you do. Oh, I live so well! I mean Pat and their house is beautiful you know. Yeah. in ten years . I know. I mean, if you went to America and told them told a bu , American business man that to invest in this country because we've got a lot of ! Yeah. . I'm saying there's only two ways you can do it in this country unless is to stop on the dole and . Yeah. I go to work and earn . Mandy was telling us, you know, about one of her friends she erm her husband was very high up in a company and he went to work one day and they called him in the office and says right, you ain't got a job! You get redundant there and then, no warning, nothing! So she couldn't go out to work cos she'd got young girls to bring up so they went to the social and the social turned round and said to them before we give you any money you've gotta spend all this bloody redundancy you've gotta have used all your savings, including the kids savings, and you've gotta have nothing! And tha , that's terrible! Why should the girls have to you know, lose their savings and money that money that people have given them as gifts just because, you know they don't want to give out any money! Where do you go, down here? Yeah. You can cut through can't you? I don't normally go that way it's walking through the car park. Yeah. If I go back along the path again he can have a good sniff there. Yeah. Well that's what they done to Dave , they were French weren't they? No, can't of been. And he er, went to work one morning and they he, they says to him you're wanted in the office, and he came in the office and he was one of the gaffers, you know Yeah. company car and everything somebody said to him got your car this morning Dave? He said yeah so he said lend us your keys a minute give them back the keys, and he says and you're finished! Yeah. That's, I mean that's what they said to this What about the car? this chap he said you don't touch that car again! He said and what about my s gear in the car for towing my caravan and that? He, we'll see to that, we'll get it off for you. He says I've got some personal stuff in the car, he said we'll get it out for you! Yeah, they're cold hearted ain't they? And they never give him the they never give him his tow bar or nothing, he's never had them back! Oh! Yeah, finished,! But, I mean Rover have done the same I know for a fact that Rover have done the same to some of their blokes, But the , they're callous the way they do it don't, aren't they? They're callous! You no, you no longer er you no longer matter! See this new deal this new Rover deal is being signed any day now well we're having a we'll be having a ballot any day now. I hear, and you stuck the pay deal out. Japanese style. Yeah we've erm they offered us four and a half percent. When does your pay rise come out? April. April. But I mean, we only found out by accident yesterday! Yeah. One of the managers that come in and he'd been on holiday for two weeks, but he knew! Yeah. And he was saying, oh they've chucked it out then? And we said what? He says the pay he says the union have rejected it I says ooh, thanks for letting us know! There were a big union meeting last night. Where? In, Solihull, I didn't go cos I No. I wanna keep my slate clean cos I'd of said something I shouldn't of said! It'll all get back you see cos if Yeah. I go, I want a good reference. Well they can't give you a bad one anyway. Well no. So when did you say went away? Last week. Last week. Mm. Yo , you should hear something. Yeah, oh yeah. You should hear a yes or no anyway, so yo , you can be sure. Oh yeah. Rough idea if you . That's right. You toe rag! I'm gonna start, I might look into going to, to night school cos that Yeah. I mean I know I've got a lot of experience in a Course you have. book-keeping and accounts and all that, but I've never ha , have no paper qualifications. No. I mean, they don't mean nothing when you've got them because a lot of these people that have all these qualifications can't do naff all in any case! Well they ha they can't do them, I've worked with the people who have got qualifications and they come and ask me wha-, what the basics! Yeah, but I mean paper qualifications don't mean anything really but that's what people want, they want to see that you've got That's right. something written down on paper. We've got our one of our ex-bosses,he er when he got the job is the first thing he does is paint all the walls and put all his certificates up! He had about forty or fifty! And one whole wall was covered with certificates! I mean, and he hadn't got a clue! No. Not clue! He's driving a bus now! But that's what they look for they think it's clever. I found out some erm some gossip on what da , Sunday do you remember Kate? Kate, yeah see her the other day. Yeah, she's left her husband! Oh! She's li , you know Vanessa, who lives opposite Teresa with the baby? Yo , ginger haired girl. Oh yeah. She's living with her feller! He kicked Vanessa out for Kate And moved Kate in! Oh! So Kate's living next door to across the road from Oh no, cos Vanessa's parents Sue and Sus lives there don't she? Yeah that's right. And Vanessa and this David had a flat. Oh! Ooh a bee! First one. Dog's seen it! He didn't get it though ! Cos he eats them! Ay you can have plenty of bees later on in the year. Wasps are his favourite. Wasps? They're his delicacy! When we have jam jar or anything in the garden he cannot get his nose out of it! He waits for them to on the ba , on the jar you know! And of course he tips the jar off eventually, and we have fill it up again! I've never known a dog eat so many wasps! Strange animal aren't you Rick? You're strange! You smell! Ahhh You're stupid! He's not stupid. Do you think you'll be going away this year or No hoping to go over to Ireland for a week but not Yeah. book anything up, just go over for a week. Yeah. Oh did I tell you o our Joanie's coming over. Is she? Yeah, she's coming to see my dad. On the Oh lovely! on the, twenty seventh I think of this month. Oh that's next week. Yeah. Twenty seventh or twenty eighth, I'm not sure which day. She's coming over to see Joe Yeah. and she's coming over to see my dad just for the day you know. Oh, I'll have to go over. I'm not sure which day it is, I'll have to let you know. Yeah, I would like to go and see her. Has she ever been over before? Yeah, she come over for Joe's wedding. Did she? Yeah, don't you remember, do you remember? I never went dad. Didn't you? No. I don't know why I didn't go. I wonder why you didn't go. I must of been on holiday or something, cos tha , that's the only reason I wouldn't of gone, if I, if I wasn't in the country. So I never no I never went to the wedding. No I, I must of been how long's he been married? I had the Granada at the time. Oh I must of been on holiday dad, with the girls or something. If it's that long ago. I'd only just bought the Granada. It was the weekend I bought the Granada, I'm sure it was when we went away first time I ever took it out for a run. I didn't go Rick! Good old car that was I made a profit on that. Yeah. I used to love driving that around, it was that long, me sat behind the wheel I looked like a dot in that! Made me look little! The bloke the bloke that wanted it couldn't wait to get his hands on it. Still got it ain't he? No, he knackered that! No did he? He didn't have it long he wrecked it! They started playing about with it you know? Playing about with the engine and playing about with the body work, trying to do it up and all this and they just they just wrecked it. cos people don't appreciate things do they? Well this is it you see , his son was supposed to be a mechanic, well he wasn't! He was a employed by Dorrisons I think as a recovery bloke, you know Oh! cos he he thought he was a mechanic because he was doing that sort of work. Course he started messing with the er bodywork and the engine and they just wrecked it , but then he sold it to another driver and this other bloke Bob erm oh I remember seeing it round a bit Bob , Bob , for a bit and he done a few miles on it and then he sold it to somebody else in the garage. Ooh it's done the rounds then? Yeah and then it disappeared then, I think, you know, I could see it deteriorating every day it was about, it was about three of my cars parking here. And I remember the old erm what was it, Cavalier? Cavalier yeah. The old Cavalier. Good car that. And the, the Granada, what else was there? Oh he had that Cavalier for a few years after I sold it. Yeah. Actually that wasn't a bad car either, to drive. Which one? The Cavalier. The Cavalier, yeah, it was, I liked that one. Nice car. I just hope the steering's lighter on this one It's lighter on that Metro you know it's ever Yeah. so easy. Yeah, I hope it's lighter on this one. Wish I could afford a new car, I'd love a nice new car! We won't be able to afford one for a couple of years yet. You could afford a Mini though. I don't want a Mini dad, don't like them. But you could afford to cho I mean, the cheapest Metro is only about er, six grand you know? Not a lot Mm. to me. Well with i , with his overtime cut we can't You ne afford nothing at the moment. Yeah. You see yo really you'd need to be you'd need to be only need to be paying back about four grand you see, though? Yeah. You'd be paying something like what I pay, which is a hundred and Well I mean Forty five a month. He's got five thousand, Mark has Ricky, come here! He's covered in blood! How's he done that! What's, has he eat something? I haven't seen him eat anything dad. His mouth's covered in blood! Have a look. Come here Rick ! I can't see it dad. Come here! Come here! Sit down! Sit down, sit! Sit! Sit, come here! Come here! That's it, now sit down a minute! Hold this Ded and I'll prang his mouth open. Let's have a look! Let's have a look at your poor mouth, ah poor Rick! What you done? What you done? It's the sudden, it just Ooh ooh , open! Ah Rick! Hey open your mouth! Come on! There's a good boy. Ooh I don't know what it is. Ooh he isn't bothered about it dad ! Put that do , oh he wants to play now! You ! You What you been eating ay What you been eating? I'll get you! You cheeky ! Do you still have his ball? I mean, it could be just a piece of grass that cut him. Yeah. You che , what do you say now? A ,i , has he, does he still have his ball? Has he what? Still have his ball. Yeah, it's at home yeah. In the summer. Yeah. I don't run him too much with it though because of his back, because of his Yeah. back legs. He likes his ball doesn't he? Oh yeah. that ball. So there's the there. Ooh yeah ! We lost her one, didn't we down that embankment? Oh ey that's not, lost lost Lost a couple down there. down there. The last one over there in the hedge,co , no way could I find it! Got another one, had a big yellow one for her, I'll find this yellow one Here are. So Trish takes him out one day lost the ball! Ooh! Come back without the ball! Right Come on you! Come on! Good boy! Are you going down to the garage? I thought you was going down to the garages? No I'm not,erm if I, if I take her for a long run. Oh right! I'm gonna go in now. She's been the lav that'll be doing for now. We can cross this side can't we? All the way down. It's gonna rain by the look of it. I know it's gonna the heaven's gonna open again aren't they? Yeah I remember you saying. Haven't seen her for a couple of month, have you? No. Mark always goes and says hello when he's home, you know. Yeah. He always goes and says hello. Ooh bless you! Oh sorry! You'll have to keep an eye on his mouth. Ay You'll have to keep an eye on his mouth today. I know. Just in case it doesn't stop. Eargh Rick, it's muddy! The contract is back again, I done all this erm water pipe it were all gravel in there sunk into the ground you know big hole in the ground! We went back there yesterday . Get all the mud off my trainers. We erm had a load of kids visit the store yesterday Ah yeah. and Andrea phones me up, she says do you wanna do one of the tours for me, take the kids round? Yeah I don't mind I only get the cla , the the lad, the group with the two naughty boys in don't I? Ah! They were . Yeah. Cor blimey! Was there a teacher with them? There wa , there was parents with them, Oh yeah. cos the school couldn't afford to put a minibus on! So the parents bought them in their cars and they come round with them. They were more interested than the kids! There was one little boy the one had to touch everything now don't touch that pot! Now don't touch tha tha , you can't touch that! No, don't! You know, it was all that all morning, and the one kept saying I'm tired! I'm hungry! I've, I want to finish now! Go to your mum ! Can I have a drink ! That's all I got out of this one boy! They were alright the rest of them weren't too bad. We took them to the fish, well I took them to the fish and no , many o , any of the oth other groups went and some of them , they're very good! The lad in the butchery, he was Yeah. brilliant with them, he was! Yeah. He really was very good! And he give them all a ticket out the machine and Yeah. cut the meat up while they were there and put it in the machine, and that happened and all this that and the other. Yeah. And er they loved that! And they all had a hat with a sticky label on and Oh! everything else. And then we went to the fish and the one, oh I'm tired! And he was going it smells,it smell ! Ah shut up! But the lady in the fish was brilliant! Was she? She got them out one of everything and showed them all the different fish. Yeah. But, we couldn't actually go into the department, cos you have to wear your wellies and all that. Oh yeah. So we were stood in the doorway. Yeah. Ooh and they loved every minute of it! They really did! I can comb my hair now and then we go straight up town. And it looks like nobody'll be able to drive in their car, except for Aunt Mary. Oh! She said the only way you could another way you can cut your costs, he said, is, is that due to all these drivers he said, you've got it you've virtually got any driver on this car said just just have it you and yo , and your wife he said, and that'll cut your costs down enormously. Sounds a bit rough dad! Which? This. Mm it's alright. It's growling! I've never noticed it before. Yeah, it does it's alright. It's funny you know, since I've been having these new cars I see these old cars, what a lot of bloody rubbish on the road, you know! I know , we used to drive round in them half the time! Yeah, bloody right! I still do. It'd do me and all if I had to. Ha? It'd do me and all if I had to. Don't bother me! Oh no, it is nice to have a nice car but you have to make do don't you? That's right, yeah. Make do with what you ca , what you can afford at the time. Another twenty years and my mortgage will be paid off so I can have a new car then! Oh, don't say that! Dad, if that's what you wanna do, nobody's . No. But as long as you earn your living that's nice and quiet,and you won't have no problems in that area . We're not too bad because I mean No unless you wanna move for a specific reason, there's just Yeah. no point in moving. No. I mean don't have any problem with the neighbours or nothing No that's like that. that's what you've gotta look for you see. The one side is never there. Now, you see you're lucky that that he's, he's sort of over there And the other side's detached so and the other side detached, and how many kids have they got? Three three girls. Three girls, see you're lucky really cos if they'd had three boys an i , in a few times, you know, ten years time like, they'd have all, the boys would of been growing up and they'd have had cars stuck everywhere, you know what I mean? Yeah. Though with the girls, that's a bit more unlikely. Mm. I mean, I know it s sounds stupid but that's what you've gotta look for today. You look at your neighbours, see how many kids they got, see what age they are and work out what's it gonna be like in ten years time. Yeah. Like Billy were he lives, he lives on by the courts, you know by the Law Centre? Is that the one who you went to, his house? He gives me a lift to work. Yeah Yeah. Yeah. And er these people, you know, next door like have got er they've got six or seven boys I think!gang of kids! They're boys. They said all of a sudden they've all grown up! That's how we got terrible problems cos they've all got erm cars. Yeah. And his father's one of these obnoxious types you know? All anybody you know? Yo , I don't care what you do! You do what you like, I do what I do, you can you know? Yeah. Please yourself! And they've got this doberman or something that barks all the time like, and it's allowed i in the garden and it sits in the garden all the time and all the rest of it! They just don't care! There's a lot of about tha , like that though isn't there? Yeah, they're probably lived next to me, I'd have poisoned it? One of the woman at work the other day. yeah, one of the woman at work she's a right stuck up old silly old bugger she is! She don't speak to nobody, she really does think she's above everybody ever such a funny woman! And where Carole lives out in Earlswood , down the lanes she lives round there as well. Well Carole's next door neighbour he owns a bit of land and he's got some sheep in his fields, and he's got some pigs and you know? Well, this woman her dog was scaring the sheep, so he shot it! Killed it! Which he's quite within his right to do, if it's scaring the sheep yeah. so, ooh there's been uproar about this bloody dog! And, I mean, we, we was on about it one day, and she was only sat on the table next to us, ooh she was giving us daggers! But I mean the chap was quite within his rights to shoot it cos it's been scaring his sheep. Well apparently her husband, he's been round smashing his windows and putting Oh! shit through the door and all sorts! There's really been a lot of trouble over it! I'd have shot him and all! Well, the police have been involved, and I suppose he's been cautioned now because they've investigated and found that thi that it was scaring the sheep and that, yes i , he was right to do what he did he quite within his rights and whatever. So they're not taking any action against the chap for shooting the dog but now they're, they're watching the other chap for causing disturbances! Just think, we nearly bought one of those you know, in there! Two bedroomed house They were fifty thousand. Yeah, they are rubbish them there though! Mm, as it was we we hung on and Yeah, you bought the right one. Wa I wouldn't mind buying one of them myself you know wi I mean if we could sell ours Mm. you know, we could buy one of them and have no mortgage. Yeah. I should think Yeah. the cars . Oh shut up you! You've got your own frigging mortgage! I know. Well if one of us pops it, one of, the other one's gonna be very well off! I know if I popped it right now, I mean yo you'd a and Trish and Teresa, you, Debbie, Teresa and Mark. You'd have about, I think it's about fifty five thousand. Bloody hell! That'd buy you a new car wouldn't it? That's if I die when I'm fifty five or over. Bloody hell! The is about fifty five or over. Yeah but don't forget Shall I wait here? Yeah, I'm going to get my glasses dad. Yeah, I've left it here for you right. What about Mary and them? They're in the house. Oh course yeah. Well just make sure you stay with the Rover then! Ooh where have I put them now? I can see now, that's better! I'll go and try the Fiesta while we're here. What's turn it over I mean it might start I dunno it let, let him down the other morning as well! Do you know how the start it? Is it Yeah. let him down. No, it does it to me dad every now and again it just won't budge! No every now and again it just lets you down. Cos, Mark used to say to me, it's you! It's you! I said it is not me! You open it to the now. That's alright. It's not just is it? Yeah. Is the choke on? That's automatic, yeah. Yeah, that's alright I think sounds alright. Yeah, I can smell it! It's Yeah What's wrong with it? sounds alright. That's alright then, as long as it starts. Need a the , these Fiestas , but they never get them right at the, the bloke I works with got one exactly the same as this does exactly ten miles and it cuts out on him. It's been going for about two now Oh! leave it for a few minutes, then start it up again. Well I mean that one once you've got it going, if you can keep it going, it'll go for miles! Yeah I'd go that'd go round the world that would! Yeah. Once you've got it going. It's the it's got a and never sorted them out. But if you let it stall on you Mm. you've had it! one of wo one of the worst ones cars ever made I mean they do make rubbish, but that's one of the worst ones! I mean we can't grumble, I mean Sheila give No. us that for nothing. Yeah. So I mean Yeah well she and it doesn't cost you a lot to it really. Oh God no! Just a few pound in spares Yeah. probably up fifty quid of spares does it? Yeah. Couple of years. Oh yeah, it's been a damn good car! Won't Which is the best way ? Down Plymouth Road. Ah, I see, I've gotta go down there then. Yeah, cos you wanna go the garage don't you? Oh oh! Yeah I like living round here, it's nice. Nice yeah. It's a lovely area! When I where was I the other day? Can't remember where I was and I was I ear-holing really, I was listening to a conversation that this woman was having can't think where it was dad! That's bugging me now! Might have been queuing up for the keep-fit actually, yes I was, I was queuing up to go to keep-fit and there was a woman in the queue saying that about so and so and so, ooh he's moving she said! And he's paying over the odds for this house, she said but of course he's paying for the area, he's moving up to Walford ! I thought ooh that's nice to hear, we pay for the area up there then do we! You didn't! Well we didn't no, we got a bargain!she I wish things would pick up. I wish we could win the pools! Ooh there's a few on that today isn't there? Yeah. The old . The old bloke. There's a new one having it's drive done here somewhere. There's a couple of on there. Yeah it's a bit further down. Stan 's in hospital. Is that your old erm there? Which? The Cavalier. You can't see it now, it was . Bloody sold it! Oh did he? Yeah. Who's is the green one then? I've asked him. Jim's Granada that is. Oh is it a Granada? Oh! Ha, me again! Yeah. Who's in the office? Morning! Good morning! Morning! Can I help you? Do you need some help? Yeah. Monday. No, no sit back down. Morning Jim ! Get on with it! Hiya ! I've just come to tell you something else. What was that? Callan says, he's come up for , no I've just come to tell you something else. Oh right! How's , how's his wee ? Oh no! I am listening yes. No, I'm on about Are you? Could've showed you that couldn't I? You can have a go later. No, we haven't mastered it yet! Have you? No! trouble he wants to get round and, give us a ring and my lad'll show him how to work it. Yeah. If he's as quick as my lad. Did you stop till the end on Saturday? No, we went not long after you. Oh! We didn't stay much longer we went. It's a bit too noisy there weren't it? Yeah it was getting a bit heavy weren't it? But the thing is, if you went, when you went to the bar it was still noisy up the bar! Yeah, erm when we,was in tears when we come out! Was he? Yeah bit emotional I think. Ah! He was in tears. Good night though,tha I did Yeah it was. I did think it was nice, the theme was good. Yeah. Very good. Has he been to the show yet? I don't know, he ju , I don't know whether he said he was going Monday or Tuesday, so he should of been. Oh! Should of been by now. Cos we went over Sunday just to have a look. Hopefully they might get some work in. I've sold one the one that was there, they've sold! Have they? They went into the er Molly, she was telling me erm she with a bloke, I can't remember the they think he's gotta go to Paris first and then, or France, there's a show in France somewhere, I think it's Paris, I don't know and then he's going over there, they've had some more enquiries or something. Oh right, good! So er it should be alright. Yeah, he's been slack for a while now. Yeah. They need some work in. Trouble is, the Yanks owe them some money don't they, and they wouldn't er Yeah. can't get it out of them! That's the trouble with most businesses now though innit? Yeah. People owing money. Day off is it? Yeah I'm on holiday next week as well. Can't be bad! What are you gonna do, stop at home and do the decorating? No, we're just gonna have a a lazy week I think. I did decorating last couple of weeks ago when I was off. Oh! Mark off then, or just you? Just me. He doesn't seem to have as much holiday as me cos I get nearly six weeks a year now. Yeah, they don't get a lot. So er oh thi , this is finishing off last years, I ain't started on this years yet! I better shut this before it gets wrecked ! See you Deds! Tara Gosh! We can go in the car park. Okay. Ooh . Yep. I don't need that thing with me. mechanic? Mean a mechanic? Mhm. Which one? The bloke with the, in the what's it coat by the loo. The black coat? Yeah. Oh! I sacked . Oh! He was an idiot! Do your new cars have electric windows? No. Oh! All the same. sound li , the Honda engine Ded. Oh! It goes the opposite way to this. How do you mean? It runs the opposite way. Don't know what you mean. I i i it runs the opposite way to this. He isn't gonna do that! He isn't gonna do that! Is that one there? No. Well they keep it the take up most of them. Ah might have to get one of these get more room. Yeah. Just keep going up dad. The higher you go, the less we've gotta go up in the lift, or up the stairs. Yeah. one of them . Got one! Ooh it's lovely when you're not having to go to work! I bet that's then? No. Even if they say we want you to open Sundays now, I shall say no. No, say, I can't do it! Nope! Yeah, don't do them no favours, if they say,come in Sunday, so I said that really! No I've made arrangements. Keep going! Doggy! I erm oh I was telling you about those till shorts! Oh you missed it! And Tony says to me, do you think we should let the Manager know? I says no. I says, Andrea knows about them it's her job she's now my, my superior, so if anybody let the managers know, she should. I said if it, if she hadn't of been here today, then yes we would of done, I says, but I'm not gonna cover up for her! She'll stitch herself up I said, I'm not gonna be responsible for covering up for the woman! That's right! I do what I've gotta do but I'm not gonna make her life any easier! Oh my life, what's that! What a mess! I've seen everything now dad ! Yeah. That's so funny! I can't They , they do look funny don't they? I can't stand minis at the best of times, but that's hilarious! now? Yes. I'll go down as well okay. She'll know us next time won't she? Sorry? She'll know us next time. Who? Why? Oh yeah. Yeah. Had a good look! Oh is that just on, sprinkled on the top that is. Yeah. yeah cos it was getting a bit raw there wasn't it? Dunno. Yeah. Ooh I want to make a note of this phone number. Hey? Hilary . Come on then! If Aunty Linda wants to know how much it'll be to get the thing, flower thing here again. Oh yeah. How come anyway? Go back up. Yeah met up with a new man and start again. Yeah. Well it wasn't Linda's business, she just worked Yeah for her. that's it. What did she wanna do it herself? It was yeah, yeah. It was a shame actually because the woman was Linda's husband sister! Oh! And she did narf she did narf shit on Linda! She when Did she? when the receiver's come in and all that, she'd never put Linda down as working for her, so she got no redundancy pay! Oh! So Linda's ha , to had,to get some money off her! You know, through the, you know the Yeah. redundancy and all that. And receiver's and that wa , when they sold off all the business, cos they, they then pay out the money that they owed her back. Yeah. And she had a wa , hell of a job to get some money from them! Oh! I mean, she's family as well! No I mean she she she, she wanted to try and set up on her own. Yeah. cos erm How much does it cost? I don't dad, that's what I've gotta find out. John, Mark's brothers sharing the money four ways. Are they? Four Yeah. ways, yeah. Yeah. Mark's having five, and he's having five. So it's all settled now? Yeah and Sheila Oh! and Linda are having four, but Aha! Sheila doesn't know you see. Oh! No, he nev , he hasn't, so it's gonna be a surprise for her. What you gonna do with the five? Buy a car? I don't know dad. No, I don't know what he's gonna do with it. Oh. I'll leave it up to Mark. I want him to buy a car but Well if you do decide to buy a car, if you wanna get a new one, I'll over. Yeah. I mean, like you say, if we could put five thousand pound down on a car we'd have After you've you like know you're virtually buying it cash then. That's right. For a Metro. Yeah, you don't have to buy, you don't have to buy the top of the range Metro. Oh no, I know. But I mean he's sucked in at the minute with Linda cos she wants him to put his money with her as well you see. Yeah maybe that's a good idea. I don't dad, cos she's not a florist! She's not isn't she? she's got no business attitude at all! This is it! I know. I mean If you're just working for somebody else . No. the must be once but er she got I do , I don't know dad. I don't know. Didn't you know him? No,. Well he, he does . I don't know. Erm Did it? I mean I think the business we she went down Yeah. She knows where to get the stuff from and Yeah. she knows how to do arrangements and all that but she's got no business sense! Erm You have to be careful though or she could but you can lose money. I've, I've said to Mark it's your money That's right, let him do it . and do with it as you will because at the end of the day then he can't turn round and sa , to me and say well you wanted to do this with it i , if it goes wrong! Yeah. He's only himself to blame then. That's right yeah. Oh, yeah. What are we doing up here then, I've gotta get some money. Yeah, I wanna to go to the A A. Where else did I wanna go Ded? Get something for the lice, or whatever, wood lice or Ooh yeah! And there was something else . No, you've been to the Midland red. Yeah. That was it wasn't it? Oh! I'll go up here what have you got where have you gotta, which bank you gotta go to then? Midland. Midland we'll go to Midland bank first then. And then down the hill? Ah and then down the hill. Still on? I've turned it o , I, I turned it off while you went in the garage. Oh. Yeah, it's still on. I hate these people that catch you in the street! I know,. No, I normally say I, I Sorry, I can't stop. I can't stop and I just say, sorry I don't give interviews. Yeah I thought I thought that was Rita over there, but it wasn't. I owe you two weeks pools money. Yeah, Peter owed me some as well. Two weeks innit? Yeah,getting paid. Yeah. Two pound . I go , I al al already owe them from me, two pounds. Remember the last time I put it in . No, I won't. So I borrowed two pound out the bag, I've got plenty of money in the bag but I don't know we . No. I don't know whether I've got any money in the bank dad! I made a couple of hundred pound out of them Sundays in any case! Yeah, yeah. I mean I got a I banked two hundred pound extra last month. Yeah. Than, you know, a normal Yeah. four weeks or whatever. You going in the bank? No, I can go to a machine dad. Ha! Somethi , something wrong Cos they accused you. Go on, tell me I can't have none! Oh no! Give it to you trusts you, you see. I must admit, it's never ever let me down but I mean, they know if ever they said I couldn't have no money I'd cause one hell of a stink you know! I'd just go and say, here are I can't ha , why can't I have any money? I'd just say, I'd close my account here. I mean, they have guaranteed every week, a hundred and twenty pound goes in that bank every week! And they get what, seven hundred and fifty pound a month as well! Yeah. Now, I mean there's no way they can say the money doesn't go in and the last couple of months it's been nine hundred and fifty pound, rather than seven hundred and fifty! Yeah. Here are look, that's all I got to my name dad. Yeah I've ! I want a loaf of bread. Do you? Where's that ? We went to, did I tell you when we wanted a statement, and Mary said where's that money gone?on the seventh so then I come out this is fifty pound, twenty pound fifteen pound took hundred and forty pound, paid it in, in two days got nothing! I said that's where our money's going! God! Must of . I want our house valued now well not just yet, we want the garden finished first not that it matters a lot. No. That looks a nice house for seventy thousand there, three bedrooms Yeah, I wonder where it is. Callow Hill eighty two. That's nice semi- detached . That's only a three bedroomed, what he's got. Which one? That Callow Hill one for eight , eighty two. Yeah, probably yeah. Yeah. Mind you, you're paying for the area aren't you? Yeah, that's all you're paying for yeah. there seventy eight thousand, three bedroomed sixty four to sixty eight,that's probably a fair bit. See them council houses are se , sell . I know. . I like looking at the houses. Yeah. Gives you an idea what's er innit? Yeah. I mean,se Ours is, I reckon ours is semi-detached houses, look at that, fifty eight, sixty thousand for Yeah. semi-detached houses! Look at that one for fifty eight! Yeah. I mean, what's a , what does that look like,an ordinary house, council house Mm. innit? Fifty eight thousand? Well,! I'd be looking for sixty five for ours, if we were to put it on the market, I mean we're not Oh yeah. we're not, like, intending to sell it at all but No. Ooh we'll go round and get this. Quickly, cos the lights have changed! Go to Ded? I'm going to. Ah, I can't see now, my glasses are all wet! Put sweepers on! I ain't got none! They didn't come with this model ! I got spike on one of my boots. No ! I'd like to work for one of the building societies and get a cheap mortgage. Ooh I thought it was further down than this! Ooh I say! Hello. Can I help you? No, Yep. And erm I'm swopping my car Right. and it's got twelve months er membership how will I take it out? What you ne , what you can do erm is, have you had your membership card come through yet? Yeah, it's come this morning, Right. or yesterday or something Ooh! yeah. Is that what I've got? Wha , what they'll actually do er they'll suspend your A A membership now for Yep. the year, until your your pre-membership runs out, and then they'll Yeah. re-instate to you, so you'll have one. Yeah. And then you'll be covered Be, just about the same anyway, cos I'm having the car on Monday. When you picking up the new car? Monday. Monday erm are you in town Monday? Are you in town again Monday? The reason I ask is cos they've obviously gotta send the card, if the cards back, you break down between now and Monday. Erm Tuesday a I'm coming to town cos So I'll leave it till Tuesday, Alright, yeah probably you're best , cos you're better off keeping your card just in case you break down between now and then, you'll need your card. Yes I'm It doesn't matter if you come in Tuesday, rather Yeah. than Monday. All you need to do Alright then. is call in with them, and then we'll send it back Oh right. to membership department. Er, you'll probably get a temporary membership card when you get free car or your new car. Yeah. If you bring that in as well, we'll get everything sorted out. Alright then. You're better keeping the card just in case you break down. Just in case yeah, I know, if I break down I can always ring you up anyway. Yeah, well there's . Yeah. And then then they'll compare with you. Okay then. And you'll get your membership, Ah, that's fine. Right. Thanks Right ooh! Thanks. I've just got all the rain off, and now we're coming out again! We'll look in this one then, now the rain's died off a bit. Oh look, that's nice one! And the one next to it, that's a big house. Yeah. One seventy five! That's nice . That's reduced to ninety five nine fifty. Mm. That's not bad innit Where's that? Callow Hill Callow Hill Yeah. I don't like them being reduced, that means you're gonna get nothing . That's a nice one,Hallowbury Close Yeah in Yatts Green How many bedrooms is it? That's a three bedroomed house dad, I think, yes, three good bedrooms. Three bedrooms. That's nice innit? Hundred and eight. Yeah, four bedrooms. Big double garage that's a good price that is! They were trying plug them for a hundred and fifty thousand weren't they? What's galleried dining room sa mean? Where? Galleried dining room. Must be a . Mm that one looks nice sold. Yeah. A hundred and thirty five, yeah, isn't that nice? That's on the golf course that is, innit? Is it? Yeah. Yeah, must be, yeah. What's on this one? Blooming big house! This is the cheaper side! Yeah, that's one of those at Rangeworthy Well look at those , two hundred and fifty five that's a big that's a bargain innit? That's a two bedroom that is. I know. Is it two bedroom? Yeah, two bedrooms. That's fifty five that was, for a two bedroomed house! You can se , I me , you can see some of them ain't worth the money though can't you? Yeah. I mean, look at that in that,Ashbourne Close there, forty three and a half thousand! It's horrible isn't it? Yeah, that's it, Rangeworthy Close. Mm. Double glazed oh it's got a conservatory on the back, and a garage built on but mm mm That JFK's supposed to be very good you know, the film. I know, one of the chaps at Sh work went to see it, it's about four hours long or something! Yeah he said it's very long. But i , it's it's very good, it gets you thinking. Yeah, he said it was worth seeing. Are you going to next race mee , race meeting? When is it? I don't know, not very long. I think so I think we'd said we'd go. Yeah, I think we said we'd go. We'll have to see what's, where we are at the time. We've gotta pay for the coach this time haven't we, or something? Ay We gotta pay for the coach this time though haven't we? Oh, it won't be much though will it? Oh no, not if they . Be a couple of quid I suppose. I never got my meat out! Ain't got nothing for tea now! Well we want, I better get I, I want some bread. Where do you wanna get it? Anywhere. Run into Tesco's if you like. Yeah. I want a Hovis loaf, it's nice bread that is. Yeah. Did you hear that ? What's your occupation I'm a bouncer! Who was that? That bloke up there that woman interviewing him. What do you bounce! Balls ! He's a bouncer for Mothercare or go that way! Oh we'll dodge him! Excuse me, can I No thank you!avoid them,ask her! Yeah, you should of said yes, I said,I'm all for doing a survey wi , I'm, your being recorded. Oh God yeah! Shall we go back? Yeah. I ca , I don't I do like these shops but I can't go in them. No , they're overpowering aren't they? Yeah, I've got a, the smell drives me insane it's too much! Makes me feel so ill! Oh excuse me! Here are, we'll get some bread from here can't I? Yeah, what do I want? I don't want bread, I want eggs. I know, you want eggs, yeah. Get bread from here, and it's nice bread from here. Mm. I'll get a loaf. I want a Hovis loaf, dad. Mind you I'll have one of those as well. they're nice and soft One of them. ain't they, one of them? Yeah. It's only a little one. Yeah, it'll do. There is bigger ones here. How much is this? A big one? It's probably . I'll have this one want a cake or anything to go with that? Oh, I shouldn't really! What? You don't want a doughnut though do you? No, I don't like doughnuts. I'll have an iced bun dad. One of them? Yeah. I'm sorry but that's all I've got, alright? Yeah. Ay I said I've You paying? Ay You're not paying for mine are you? No did you want me to? No cos I wanna get the er . Thank you. Yes please! And an iced bun and an apple turnover please? Oh alright,. And a pound out the till! They don't do that . Forty pence please. Yeah. Sorry! The , these are nice, these look nice but they're not Oh yeah I bet they're nice and fresh. They're Yeah made on the premises the I think by the looks of it. I like, oh yeah yeah. they look nice don't they? They look nice yeah. up here Ded? Yeah. We have them bought in daily. Yeah. Same sort of thing but obviously th , they wouldn't those would be a lot nicer there I think. Yeah. Sorry, I thought you'd seen pick these up. I'm not queuing ay No I didn't. I thought that black bloke had picked them up . Oh! Ought to go back again quick! Before he disappeared out the door! He wouldn't of got out! These ever so heavy! Hey? It's low! Yeah, mine's getting heavy as well, we need a carrier bag. Ooh I like them jumpers dad. I like that. Yeah,that is. That's really nice that is! I'm not sure about the white one though. Let's go and watch that. And, I like that you know. That's nice innit? Yeah. You say there's somebody at the ?it's a thing Thirty one ninety nine. thirty one, thirty one ninety that is. That's nice that is dad. Next time we're here on Friday er You're here Wednesdays and Fridays yeah. I thought he said,Fridays, I thought he said a week Friday. No, next day will be Friday. Friday so it's Wednesday and Friday, right? Thanks! I'm not up next Wednesday. I am. Er e , even there's a nice one look! Yeah I know. But, what are we after, eggs? You want eggs? Ey di , now did you want anything else? Oh, so you can get them in here can't you?that's good! It's gone a bit colder now hasn't it? It wasn't cold earlier on! It's really mild then. You what sorry? nice, it was ever so mild. Yeah it was. Yeurgh I , where do you, where do you get your eggs from? Mm? Where will you get your eggs from? Round the corner. Oh right. I wanna get the spuds. They're good portions aren't they? Yeah. Yeah. How much are they in Tesco's? Are they twice that? That's two fifty and pound though! More . About the same. Yeah about the same. Yeah about the same , yeah. Can I have a pound of chicken breasts please? Sixty two? Yeah. Can I have a carrier bag as well please? Free range eggs, two twenty per tray. Oh yeah, that's enough yeah. I'll have some free range eggs as well. How many would you like? Er a dozen please? Turkey wings. Do you still them dad ! Ah? Them turkey wings Yeah. Like a joint innit? Yeah. Ooh I don't! Don't you? I don't like turkey do I? No. Thank you! Thank you. Put that in there Ded. Yeah. And the chicken as well? Yeah, yeah and them . Do, I mean, a lot of people are doing these now, know these pizzas? Yeah. They look quite good don't they? That's a nearly two pound one, they're big ain't they? Mm. Need to get one of them . Oh that's good! Gonna get them? Yeah, ninety nine P bag of chicken nuggets Oh! ninety nine P that's cheap dad! Yeah, a bag of nuggets. Mm. That's cheap!that's forty P. One ninety nine I mean that's Trouble is, there's only me that eats it! Yeah. Ooh, I love my meat now, I couldn't give up my meat! Yeah. I couldn't do that. Do you know, I reckon you're better off coming into to somewhere like this to buy it. Oh I do. Rather than er paying Tesco's prices, don't you dad? I'll buy the Ah? . Ah? Yeah. Don't you dad? Yeah, buy them for one ninety nine there. We Where have we gotta go now? Don't know. Caulies look nice dad. Yeah, they do. How much are they? Sixty P. Oh, cheap! But I, I don't get anything now. We've gotta go back go home then. Let's go! Well you got me for the day today, cos I can't go now until I fetch the car. What time you gotta fetch it? Five. Five. May as well make our way back to the car then Yeah. hadn't we? Might as well have dinner then, with us because we'll be having dinner about five. No, I can't cos I'll have to do Marks. Oh. Is he is he still got overtime? No. Basic hours now? Yeah. Mind you, they'll probably wanna do overtime next week! Ye , yeah. Colin was just saying, I mean,his wife works in the office and she hears a lot of what's going on. . The Americans owe the company money and they're waiting for that and also the , they sold one of the machines at the exhibition so, and they've had some enquiries, so hopefully they'll bring some work in. Twenty pence. Thank you. Thanks. I think I'll have to leave Mark. Go and work on Andrew! It's picking up ! Yeah you wanna . Yeah. Then you'll have to do I thought erm Your brother Yeah. Well the thing is Dianne and and Charles, they haven't known it, it's never worked from day one Yeah. apparently! That's right. But, because of the position he holds in the community Yeah , that's right. they, they make them stay together. He's not who's gonna give up Queen of England anyway? Well that's right,. I don't blame her! Make his life miserable, stick with him! Well think of the money! As long as he don't start beating her about, she's to stay where she is, isn't she? Yeah, just think of the money! That's it. . Me, changed sides now. Ay I keep moving this from side to side cos we keep swopping. Sammy went erm ice skating with one of her friends Yeah. a couple of weeks ago. Yeah. Do you know, she's had no pocket money since? Why? To pay for it. She had to pay for it herself and now, she's had no pocket money since! She ge , I think she gets half, half her pocket money this week cos she's paying Christ! How much she sa does he give them? Erm I think they get a pound a week dad. Is that all? Yeah. I mean, really Sammy should be getting a bit more than that now shouldn't she? I mean, really Pocket money they both give ju her a pound or something. they both sho , ooh don't you say nothing! Oh no. No. Dad, they both should get more now, because they have to buy their own comics and that. Yeah! Oh, well that's it's out their pocket money! giving them . I always give them some when I, when I see them, I try and give them you know Yeah. odd fifty P here, and pound here and I always try to give them a little bit. They, we were I, I didn't know till Sunday. Oh. We went the shop and she Anthony a pound, she give Sam a pound I mean, she was a good girl and she'd afterwards cos she'd opened her mouth but she said, I shouldn't have had any should I? And she took it straight off her! No you shouldn't, you're right! I says, oh Sam, you are a good girl for being honest, I says, don't get upset, I said You should of said, you'll be docked pay! Yeah ! Yeah. I said you are a good girl for being honest, I said, don't, don't get upset, I says, cos you'll get your pocket money next week. I won't, she says, I'm only having half next week! And then I've paid for it she says! But that's mean dad! It is yeah, she don't have to though isn't she? I shouldn't say half the things I do say, but I ge I get upset I do! The way she's she is to Sammy she's, she's awful to her! I don't know why. Mm. And she's not the same to Anthony, she does treat them differently! Does she? Yeah yeah. I mean, Mark don't say much, he keeps his mouth shut! He ignores a, a lot of things that go on but even he passed comment the other the other week when we was at bingo when we were coming out he said er he says she's horrible to Sam that sometimes! It's a shame! The thing is you can't, you can't say nothing to her. No no I know. You can't, you can't speak to her at all! No. Because she , she goes in off the deep end and you yeah. know you're you lose out opening your mouth then! Yeah. We're on the to aren't we? Oh that's alright then weren't it! Oh I owe you two forty don't I? I'll give you Teresa's as well, then she can pay me back tomorrow. So I'll gi , if I give you five pound that's covers the the pools money for the last two Yeah. the last week and this week. Okay. Oh I can! Oh! Do you get free membership with most new cars now, for the A A? Ah yeah, well you used to get one of one of them anyway. Not necessarily the A A, could be er R A C. R A C, you know. Have you got some money for the car park? I've got change. Here are, Major's on the front as well! Silly moo! Labour's poll lead as Major drops a cha clangers! Bumbling John Major dropped one clanger after another yesterday as Britain's economy took yet another hammering and last night he was reeling as two new opinion polls showed Labour verging ahead to a five point lead, enough to put them into Westminster with an overall majority . Oh! Everybody's saying now, that it looks as if the Labour are now good, but what can they do to us Ded? It doesn't matter who gets in power dad! We , we're gonna be just as bad off I think! You see the thing is that we want the economy to pick up. Yeah. We want our houses to go up in in value and this sort of is not important to us! We want things moving! That's it, yeah. Nothing's happening at the moment! No,i ,i , the country has laid dormant, hasn't it, for the last Yeah, yeah. three four years, it's gone down? Everybody says, oh if the, if Labour go into power, all the money leaves the country! That's a load of rubbish that is! It's the ones that are frightened! That was erm Do you want a sandwich? Do you want a sandwich? Yes, love Do you want erm, well there's cold lamb, you like cold lamb? Lovely lamb No, I don't want it Cheese I'd have cheese, you can have cold lamb love, I'm not keen on cold lamb Ricky will have pork chop I like it Yeah Them things that Patricia had put to you were disgusting. No I wouldn't eat them Right where's Ted for? I've put it away What's Ted tea doing out? Mm why you get it? How many of those have you got to do, twenty? Pardon? Twenty Which? tapes whatever you can, there's no stipulation you've got to do so many, you have to do whatever you can, but I expect some people can take them to work and just leave them on can't they? Yeah It's just something that we can't do I'm afraid so so we're on five now Yeah, they are, you prob Er about five past one I should think Just our Jane just popping round No coming round to see me I suppose she doesn't want anything to eat cos she brought a sandwich with her from work, she took a sandwich to work with her hello you, nearly food time, have you smelt something to eat Ricky? Have you smelt something to eat, poor dog, wait a minute, I'll find you something, get down, sit, sit there, stay there. You get feeding better than the rest of us you do. Yes, sit, stay there Yes, thank you, here you are Ricky here's for you, where you gone, Ricky where've you gone? Right, sit. You need Flowers are coming up ain't they? Yeah they're all up now, and they've come out just as come to life What's it? Put the clock behind there. I ain't dressed mind you know Who cares? in the middle, got to hang, two foot from the tree Oh yeah and this bloke nearly had the sense, he said he's coming up on the Friday? Yeah, yeah Well he's coming up really strong that's its Mind way it's putting the garden out there it never died off, must of been wild or something. Well it is Mm, I know You won't like my cheese I nearly, against the wine there huh Sa cheese you are Ricky You joking, mm, he eats anything now I'll take us something she'll be going to work when were Mm don't eat in the canteen any more I'm sure they're trying to poison us all I didn't think that pair was suited in any case No Is that who's she's been seeing? Paddy McNally One of them Oh the other one was that Wa Watts the American millionaire. That's it Watts I've told him that's in this house during the day I thought if anybody he'll be as normal rule he would Yeah and Charles is a stick in the mud and the other one's the other way, seems to be the other way inclined At least she won't, won't be er a short of a bob or two will she? Oh no, we'll pay to keep her for a long time Well if she rubbed shoulders with a millionaire, so she'll be permanently looked after I'm sure. Yeah. Its a good ending Can I have the wine? Mm Can we have the wine? I keep thinking today's Thursday I don't know why Thursday Yeah. I keep thinking today's Monday I, I, I thought it was Thursday all day. Actually I, I was gonna buy you an evening meal with this spot the ball The bird thing start and said to Debbie this morning when she brought the car in, how you going to pay? That's exactly what they said to Mike the clerk, how you going to pay? I can take it over there for the first service which is free anyway and I can take it back to Swansea for the others can't I? Mm. Have a day out at June's If I had ability coming back That's nice, not long then? Well you'll have to go on your own John I know I think Steve wants to come with me. Oh, why's that? Cos he said to me how, you going up on your own? I said well thanks, I knew what he was getting at, I said I'm not sure but then he started saying cos, well, you know, what, if you want somebody to go with you like, I'll got, I started going up Wow, wow, wow. Yeah, do you realize you've run out of whisky? Have a I've got cos there's none in the cupboard Mm, mm well there's none in there That's cos you were going to have a look were you? No Are you taking Steve with you? No Why? I don't want to. Why? I don't want him there, he'll put me under too much pressure, cos he'll want his, as soon as he's seen his family he'll wanna get back. Will you be having Stan down? Did we have Stan down? Will you be having him down? no We've already done it Have ya? Yeah, cos at that time he came in yeah their were in, their arrive and then they would of realised that wasn't working, and then he would of turned the whip Yeah, but this wasn't discovered until he went for his pass exam what before his exam for his test?, he'd have gone for his medical and it was found on his at his medical. The Chief, the Medical Officer, who ever it was, it was a doctor who had said go and see your own doctor, and his own doctor sent him to see a specialist. Right, I won't go round there, and then they would of put in for No, yeah I've gotta take him out yet. Will you be taking the lead as it Yeah Can you , and he will say in a minute don't buy me no more mince dear. No, I'll have egg and chips when I come home tomorrow, right what, what do you want? What do you want now, ah, that's it push me over you aren't half cheeky, no wonder Mary tells me off the way I treat ya, ah? You are awful, yeah, is that right, ain't it? Do you love me now? Gonna give me a big kiss, oh, good boy. I don't really want it, but When is this bloke supposed to be phoning? I'm just telling you so you're not moody on the phone I'm never rude on the phone I could say she's not in He'll find out Come in. Hello. Hello. Aye. What can we do for this lady? Er it's just to see if I could get a repeat prescription for the pill. ? Mm. Which one is it ? Er I think it's Marvelon Marvelon Marvelon No problems with No. your taking it? . That's okay. Mm. you to sign one of these crazy forms? And erm I need to check your blood pressure Carol, and I'll get the girls to get one of these forms for you to fill in. Right. Right, so go and do that. you sit yourself you just sit down there. What's the form for? Oh, it's just a wee forms Is it? for that's for the civil service to run around and play games with. Aye, that's what they're all for. Yeah. Fine. . No problem. Just two, two seconds I'll get one of these forms. Oh Hello. Hello monster. Oops. Sorry! Okay. Now. that out the way. Too many pockets that's what the trouble is. If I get you to sign on that line there . Right. Right Carol? Anything else I have to ? No, that's all. Is that okay? That's, that's lovely. Fine I'll fill in the rest. Right. Thank you . Right. Okay Carol? Bye now. cos it makes a fun funny humming or buzzing noise because it picks up the vibrations through the table otherwise. Now then Pen and pencil would would be a useful idea. Now what did we do before? Erm we've done time signatures, compound time signatures. Erm Yeah didn't we? tonics all that sort of stuff, diminished, augmented We did some intervals intervals. Yes. Right. Now can you tell me about time signatures? What, what are the two types of time signatures? Compound Mhm. and erm what's the other one? Simple. Simple. Yeah. Just ordinary simple and compound. And there's Simple and compound. Yeah. Compound's things like six nine, six nine erm Nine twelve Yeah. That sort of stuff. At the top. That's the top number. Erm. And compound is three four. Tha that's comp that's compound. Now compound is always six. Oh. Simple is just ordinary three beats a bar, Yeah. four beats in a bar, two beats in a bar. It's the compou think of compound as being the one that's more difficult to think about. Six eight times, nine eight times. Yeah. Right. Still leaves three two three or four beats in a bar, but they're compound times. They're dotted beats. That's really all that compound means. It means dotted beats. Erm what would twelve twelve four? Think about twelve four cos that's a compound time. It's got twelve at the top. Erm it may help to look at it. Cos you can't think about it straight away. Think twelve, and it'll be twelve what? Dotted semi-quavers. No. What does four stand for in an ordinary time signature? Oh crotchets. Right so So. if there are twelve of those. Twelve crotchets. One two three four five six seven eight nine ten eleven twelve. Think of them in groups of threes and that gives you four dotted? Quavers. No. Semi-quavers. You're, you're going small Yes. and you've got to go the other way. Oh yeah. It's erm If there are tw if there are twelve crotchets and each of those are in groups of three. Dotted minims. So you've got four dotted minims. So twelve, I mean if you can remember them twelve stands for four beats in a bar anyway Yeah. and if you just think what twelve crotchets are going to be divided up into Mm. it's going to dotted minims. Cos you know it's going to be dotted something or other. And if you were to see er an extract of music for example here's a twelve eight one. This one actually tells you it's in twelve eight time. And it's asking you to put in the bar lines. Where would you put those bar lines do you think? It would al I think it probably also asks you to to group them properly. But just for the moment we won't worry about the grouping aspect. I think, assume everything starts on the first beat of the bar as well. Okay. It'll tell you if it doesn't. Erm Eight stands for ? Quavers. Right One two three four five six seven eight nine ten eleven twelve . So obviously the first one would be there. And probably if it's going to be a whole one One two three four five six seven eight nine ten eleven twelve. So in fact there are just two bars. Now how would you actually group those notes? Erm it'd be groups of three again wouldn't it? In groups of three. Those two've got to be grouped together. One two three four Er it'd be sort of half of that. Half of the erm crotchet. I don't know how you do that. Can we go backwards. One two three four five You can only do it if you miss out that. One two three. One two three. And that leaves you with a a little bit Right. Yes. It actually explains it. Exactly what they want you to do. Er where you've got a note that obviously goes over a beat as in that one there Yeah. you're, you're going to have to write two quavers and tie them. Is that what you said? Yeah. It might have been what you said . So those two okay. That one will be joined to a quaver beat, so that you'll have a group of three. And another quaver, those two will be tied the join taking them onto the next group of three and so on. So basically you're splitting this in compound time? Yes. So it it'd still sound Cos that, that actually looks as though it's the half way part of the bar too doesn't it? So, and you, you don't actually go over the half Yeah. way part of the bar with one single note. If you've got a note it's got to be held. You actually split into two an and use a tie. If you're in two time or four time which you are. You're in four four dotted crotchets beats there aren't they? You will sometimes be asked to er look at something like that and then put the time signature in. These have got the time signature in but you're, they're asking you to put in the bar lines and then grouping the notes properly. As in that one, you've go you've got to alter what they actually put there. Not going to alter the sound of it. The sound must still be the same but you've got to alter the notes for grouping purposes. That may happen in any of those. I wonder if they've got any here now that haven't got any time signatures, because that's the other thing that they they like to give you. Down here. Add time signatures. Alright. Let's see what you can make of first of all that one. And whether they're all compound, they may not all be compound. Some may be, some may not. I don't know. Find the simplest bar in each one. this one. Looking through it that is the simplest one cos you can see Yes. at a glance there are two It's all, it's all groups of three aren't there? Yeah. So that's obviously going to be in compound time. What though? Erm Fairly easy to put in a time signature. Six twelve. Six er now wait a minute. What's four is for crotchets. Eight is for quavers. Double it again, sixteen. Six sixteen. It's gonna be sixteen. So six sixteen. And that actually means two dotted crotch two dotted quavers I mean, doesn't it? Cos each group adds up to a dotted quaver. Mm. So it Yeah. As you've got here. That's right. In fact, if anything, which is the easiest way round of doing it? To be, if you're asked to put in a time signature? It's not always so easy to to group notes. I think people find that more difficult than actually saying what a time signature is. Mhm. What about that one? Erm Take the simplest bar. Three quavers. So the time signature is? Erm three eight. Three eight. Now And it's grouped in a dotted crotchet. Yes it is. Now is that compound or is that simple? Three eight is simple. It's simple because it's just got three at the top. Mm. It looks as if it ought to be with the compound ones but it's not. It's just an ordinary simple one. But it's quaver beats instead of crotchet beats, that's all. So that was a simple one, that one was a compound one. We'll do one more. What about this one? Is there an easy ? No they're, they're all, virtually all exactly the same Erm timing aren't they? They're not quite the same. two three four five six Yeah. six erm six four. Yes. Six four which is dotted? Minims. Two dotted minims. Yes, yes. Two dotted minims in a bar. That's one of them. And that, in fact that's probably the simplest bar isn't it? Because Mm. that's a group of three. Much the same as a dotted, dotted minim. Erm simple or compound time then? It's Six six four four that's simple. No, compound. Compound. Two, three, four or five would be simple times. Six, twelve They sound more complicated Mm. so think of them as being compound. Right. That way round then isn't so difficult. That I think you I think most people find it more difficult having to group the notes in the right, in exactly the right way. So I think. This is actually a grade four one. We'll lead up gradually to grade five . Yeah. I'm not going to go all the way back through grades two and three. You started on two I think. Or you've got Book Two. We'll go, we'll go from I think . here. And anything that you find you don't know then we can perhaps go back on just the bits that you don't know. Because you're not going to have to go back on many of the things. This book, these books are quite good because they do give you a little bit of explanation. You've also got er other books or another book at home which you can refer to if you need any extra. Erm it might be an idea to go back. You won't find you're going to take much time doing some of these. If you do exercise one for the time being don't worry about that one, exercise three. Shall I write it down? Yes, it would be a good idea, wouldn't it? Mm. Do you want to write on the back of It would be because you've already got some in here haven't you? I think I probably Yeah. Actually I'll carr I'll carry on on And the date today is the The twenty eighth I think. Ah the twenty eighth. It's the next thing on isn't it ? So if you're looking in the grade four book put down page four, exercise one. If you have a look at each one of those. Rather than write them in the book, just put the answers down either on a on a piece of paper. As long as you put clearly what it is you're putting in. Then I can just use these books over and over again. It's a bit pointless writing in them. When it comes to exercise three that's on page five, exercise three. When it says add bar lines it won it won't hurt you to actually write those out. Because Okay. you really need to group the notes. Well the notes are grouped but you're gonna add the . Write it out because it's all good practice for for you actually. At er writing out notes as well. So you can do exercise three. Not that one for now because that's doing something different. Now which are the ones that you've got to to group? So far over here. Right. Page page eight starts exercise six. In fact do all of those. Do A through to F. And that's grouping notes plus the bar lines. The later ones are always quite hard. And they've given you they've actually given you, not in this one, but they do give you the clefs here. They've given you the clefs. Did we look at those before? Alto clefs and tenor clefs? Er don't think so. Have you come across those before? come across these. You've come across the treble and the bass right? and the bass, not these alto or whatever. Erm if just take just think of singers at the moment. Soprano is the highest, then an alto Soprano, then an alto , tenor, bass tenor and bass. Soprano is the highest voice. Then comes the alto. Then the tenor and then the bass at the . Oh right. So is So that's that's alto. So is that one up from It's one down from the treble. Think of it as being the next lot down if you like. Then there would be a tenor clef and then a bass clef. The only reason that, that you're using a different clef is that it's actually putting middle C in a different place. On the stave. So that for example an alto doesn't need so many notes, high notes, but needs a few more lower notes. So if you just kept your treble clef you'd have a lot of lines possibly that you weren't using at all. And having to add a lot of low ledger line notes. That saves doing that. Because they position middle C. Middle C's actually positioned between those bits there so the middle line there becomes middle C. Which means that you're unlikely to have to have quite so many ledger line notes. Although this has got one or two. But not as many as you would have if you were using the treble clef because you'd probably end up with a lot of lower this is wha , that isn't a particularly good example really because it hasn't given a lot of lower notes but normally you'd expect to see more notes down on these lines. Soprano wouldn't go down that far. A soprano would only go down to about erm oh about what? Middle C is probably a bit too low for, for most sopranos. But an alto would go a lot lower, would go down probably to an F or a G. So that these notes would be low. If that's middle C you can te what would the bottom line actually be? Bottom line? That's C Er it would It's here. er G. C A F, you're right, yes. Erm so that in fact a true alto would be using most of the notes there. And just a few ledger lines above. Unlikely to be using whereas if they were using the treble clef for most of the time F G. Yes. And then the other one, the tenor clef. Have they given you a tenor clef? No. They'll give you a tenor clef a little bit further on. They may not actually put the tenor clef in till grade grade five now I come to think about that. But there's no point in Not learning it about it now because it's just as easy really. Tenor clef looks exactly the same but middle C is now there. Next line up in fact. So because a tenor sings a little bit lower you've got more of the lower notes and fewer of the higher notes before you need to add start adding ledger line notes. Sometimes of course you'll, they'll still need ledger line notes up there. And perhaps one down there but not very likely. So it's just to make it much more comfortable to look at. Just means you have to get used to thinking, right if that's if, if that's er er a tenor clef then that note won't be it would be, be an A in a bass clef and F in a treble clef. What will it be for that clef? In this erm oh Going downwards going backwards is, is more difficult isn't it? Yeah. Much easier working upwards from C. That line's C. So that line C. would be? C A F D Er C A E You go one below it. Oh yeah. You know F is next in fact C yes. That's A, that's F, that would be D so it's between the two which, which is an E. And if you were going above of course, that note would be? E. E and remember that it's the E just above middle C. And that's the E Does the middle C always come up on a line? Well it's yes it does in fact. Mm. I hadn't actually thought of that before. But yes it does seem to. I suppose theoret theoretically you could actually move middle C to wherever you wanted to have it. But generally speaking they us they use just the four clefs. Now certain instruments use the alto clef. Just a minute. Hello. Oh hello. Alright. Right I'll fetch him, I'll fetch him. Yes he's here. Oh somewhere he is. He's jus just upstai he's just upstairs so I shan't be a moment I'll go and call him . Gosh she's going to have fun with this tape. Go on out you go. Right Yes. So middle C then can be almost anywhere. Yeah. What instrument do you know about do you think that uses something other than the treble clef and a bass clef? Or have you come across the one that Erm instrument that I know. Well that, that you might know. It's not actually a percussion one but it's er in fact I don't, I think most of the percussion ones tend to use a a bass clef don't they? Yeah, yeah. If you see one at all. Yeah or erm xylophones and glocks and those. Except they use treble and bass They use the treble don't they? Yes. Er Bass or whatever. Yeah. Xylophone. Yes, it's a treble. And a vibraphone? Just I've got one of those nice little Yes. It's just like a, a small sort of piano. Doesn't have a very long key keyboard. It doesn't I don't think. Quite an It's a piano and it's odd range. It's very high. Because in fact although it's written from there all the way up to there, erm that is it starts at the C above middle C and goes up Yeah. to very high the unfortunate thing snare drum. I think that's played on the bass what would be on the piano an A. Yes. It, it, they use cert certain lines don't they? They use yeah erm So that you, you get to know what is I think it's er what is what. A is the bass drum. Yeah. er I think it's G they use as the high-hat and there's all sorts of things. Yeah. I don't thing they one thing they don't give in this book is a complete score Yeah. which oh do they? No they don't. No. Which of course I'll ask yeah I've got plenty of those sort Mm. of things anyway. You have to know an awful lot you know for grade five. You, you've gotta have quite a wide knowledge. You, you don't have to, need to know anything in, in depth but you've got to know But you've got to know shallow a wider range. Yes that's right which means in a way that you've got to know quite a lot. There's erm an alto, no, yes an alto clef, isn't it? For trombone, no, it's not, it's for, yes it's for one of the trombones, isn't it? Tuba. Oh I erm found out what that brass instrument we couldn't think of. What was it? Euphonium. Euphon yes. You're erm isn't it silly Mm. I've, I've because you see I could see wh exactly what you were talking about in my mind Mm. but I could not think of its name. Yeah. I got into the car and I was still erm thinking all about this It's, it's, yeah. and my mother said straight away, oh you're thinking of a euphonium. Yeah. That's the one. Yes. It's so silly isn't it when er you know that you knew it all the time. Now then. The one I'm looking for is what, have I got to the strings yet? No I haven't got back to the strings. These just use the bass or the treble clef. And when you get back to the There we are. The strings. It's the viola that we're actually looking for. Sort of bass violin. Sort of bass violin, yes . There we are. That's the one that uses it. So that you see even in a score it would be written like that. So that's the only, only instrument that you generally see, actually see using it in most, most schools. Unless you're going into some of the tenor erm and alto The Queen visits Cyprus and walks into a row over executions thirty years ago. And the motorist who changed a wheel in the fast lane of the M Six. Amid growing speculation that the treasury wants another billion pounds cut from Britain's defence budget, ministers get a stark warning against inflicting grave damage on the effectiveness and morale of the armed forces. The warning came from the all party, defence select committee, whose Conservative chairman said the country's defence capability had already been pared to the bone. The fears were repeated by Conservative back benchers in the Commons this afternoon when the defence secretary announced a number of measures, including the scrapping of a new nuclear missile for the R A F, the selling of of Rosyth and Devonport dockyards and a new role for the reserve forces. Mr Rifkind was opening a two day defence debate which Labour said was being rushed through before cuts in next months budget. Labour's defence spokesman David Clark said, any reductions should be justified on defence criteria, not on a passing whim of the treasury. Defence workers turned out in force at Westminster, a reminder to the government that if its determination to curb spending means cutting the defence budget, jobs as well as the armed forces will suffer. These royal ordnance workers know that much depends on an ammunition order currently frozen by the treasury. Inside the Commons, the defence secretary Malcolm Rifkind wouldn't be drawn on his battle with the treasury. Only making this coded appeal for the armed forces not to be left too stretched over too many tasks. The white paper that was published some months ago indicates I think, very clearly, the kind of commitments that we have and the way in which we are meeting those commitments. Clearly any deliberation of future policy has to look and look very responsibly and comprehensively er both at the question of the commitments that our armed forces have er and the best way in which we can carry out those commitments. These are matters on which it is quite proper that there should be an ongoing er debate. But the opposition accused Mr Rifkind of rushing today's defence debate because everything hinged on the public spending settlement to be announced next month. The truth is they're rushing through the debate because they know that in the budget the next month, the chancellor will announce further defence cuts. And I emphasize, it'll be the chancellor, it will be the chancellor making the announcements and not the defence secretary. In his battle with the treasury, Mr Rifkind won valuable backing. A report on the Royal Navy by the Commons defence committee gave a dire warning of the impact of the cuts already under way, let alone those that my be in prospect. The MP said the fleet is too small to defend Britain's sea lanes in war. A potentially fatal threat to the country's long term security. Even as they gathered their evidence the defence committee members knew they had no power, only the hope of influence. So their intention is to warn fellow MPs and the public of the dangers of cutting the armed forces too far. I hope that people will sit up and take notice of it. Defence isn't always at the top of the political agenda and in periods of long time peace as we have now enjoyed, people tend to forget the dangers are still genuine and still there. And what message do you hope to carry to the treasury by this report? Hands off our defences. Mr Rifkind, seen here in Bosnia, needs that support to resist a treasury threat to cut another billion pounds off the defence budget. In each of the next three years. Defence committee members believe the government must decide on a foreign policy first. Our investigation reveals that we're continuing to ask the armed forces to meet a series of commitments and all the time we're reducing the resources available to them to meet these commitments. I don't think that makes any kind of sense. We must get a balance between commitments and resources, and we'll only get that when we have a full scale review of Britain's defence obligations, both present and future. One decision was clear today, the R A F will not now be buying a new nuclear missile. This French system was one contender for a weapon that would have cost two billion pounds. A rare defence decision not to be controversial. David Shukman, B B C News, Westminster. Announcing the plan to sell off the Rosyth and Devonport dockyards, Mr Rifkind said that privatization would benefit the Navy, the taxpayers and the yards themselves. But union officials say they're worried that the sell off will lead to more job losses. The decision to sell off the yards come nearly four months after Devonport won a contract to refit Trident submarines against competition from Rosyth. For two years, Rosyth and Devonport dockyards fought a bitter battle to land a five billion pound contract to refit Britain's Trident submarines. Devonport won but Rosyth was promised surface ship refitment contracts as a consolation. Since then, both yards which are run by private firms under contract, have announced hundreds of redundancies. Devonport workers thought today's announcement is bound to add to the uncertainty over their future. Yeah we had five hundred er a couple of days back and I would think there's probably another five hundred or so to go. With this shock news as well there's going to be a lot more redundancies which has got to be bad for Plymouth and the economy of Plymouth as well. But managers of D M L, the Devonport management firm, were optimistic about the future. There would be a short handover period, er it would have to be administered, but from where we sit, we're going to actually submit a bid that sees off the competition. Local unions were less enthusiastic about how workers would be affected. This is really scraping the bottom of the barrel, selling off the defence related industries of our country and I don't believe the people of this country will be prepared to put up with that. Once both yards are in the private sector, the danger for Rosyth is that Devonport bolstered by its secure base-load of Trident contracts, will be able to undercut the Scottish yard for surface work too. There has always been the issue of, Is there actually enough Royal Navy refit work to keep two dockyards in full employment? Erm do we need two full dockyards? Now from an economic point of view, you probably don't. For some years the naval dockyards have been operating in a limbo land. Halfway between the public and the private sectors. But there's no clear idea of what they will be worth or how many private sector bidders there will be. Meanwhile for the workers there's added uncertainty about their future. Iain Carson, B B C News. The Queen has arrived in Cyprus for the commonwealth conference, to a row over a series of executions thirty years ago. Her visit has revived memories of the island's bloody struggle for independence. Cypriot nationalists say the Queen should have stopped the executions of nine guerilla fighters arrested during the fight for independence. The Queen flew into Lanacka Airport and was met by the Greek Cypriot President, Mr Clarides. She will be here for a week and her visit is already shrouded in controversy. Over the past week, small groups of protestors have highlighted the hanging by the British of nine Eoka members during the fifties. They claim the Queen refused to intervene, and as a consequence, she must be denied the keys to the cities of Nicosia and Limassol. The demonstrations have been small, but memories of British rule here are still vivid. In Nicosia's Eoka museum, pictures of British troops when they tried to fight off the separatists. These Eoka guns were used to kill more than fifty British soldiers before the Republic of Cyprus was formed. Today, this Greek Cypriot author is in the eleventh day of a hunger strike. He's calling for more street demonstrations when the Queen arrives in Nicosia tomorrow. But more importantly for the Republic of Cyprus, shaped by the late Archbishop Makarios, the conference will concentrate minds on the division of the island. It is a recognition that er the Republic of Cyprus is clearly one entity despite the attempt made by the Turkish Cypriot side to declare a separate state. It is a recognition of the legitimacy of the Republic of Cyprus. The president of North Cyprus, Rauf Denktash, said the conference locations was a bad idea. Well I do say that er this is merely an encouragement of the Greek Cypriot side, to continue in its er policy of to be the government of Cyprus at our expense. They should not have done it. This evening attention centres upon the hotel in the U N buffer zone which divides Nicosia. Where there was to be a meeting between the two presidents and Douglas Hurd. The Greek Cypriots got wind of an idea by Mr Hurd to meet Rauf Denktash on his own and they say that would be an unfriendly act. Greek Cypriot anti-terrorist squads meanwhile concentrated their minds on rehearsing for any hostile threat to security here. As the hullabaloo over the Queen and the conference continues. Michael Macmillan, B B C News, Cyprus. Health officials in Gateshead are contacting more than seven hundred women after discovering that the doctor who carried out cervical smear tests on them had not used the correct procedure. The Gateshead Family Health Service's Authority says it's known about the situation since May nineteen ninety two. But the doctor's stopped carrying out smear tests only a week ago. Seven hundred and forty four women, patients at this surgery in Gateshead are being recalled for new smear tests. Four have yet to be traced. Their G P Felix Lusman had been using a faulty technique for the past five years. Gateshead Family Health Service's Authority admitted it had known what was going on for more than a year, but action was taken only after a patient contacted them. We to say was aware of the practice in May of nineteen ninety two but I am not clear er as to what took place at that stage because we haven't as yet looked into that. Doctors carrying out a smear test, should use an instrument called a speculum to open the vagina to ensure that they can see the cervix when taking a sample with a specially shaped spatula. But Dr Lusman failed to use a speculum. In this case Dr Lusman did not do that and he took the sample by using his finger and a spatula, in what you might call a blind manner, and doing it by feeling. So the sample may not have been complete er and once the sample was taken, one could have lost some of the material. Although the risks to patients are small, not surprisingly, some visiting Dr Lusman's surgery were anxious. I'm quite shocked. They're professional people I mean they don't really explain to you what they're doing. Even though it sh they should. This is the latest in a series of clinical errors which have bedeviled the national screening programme. Last month more than a thousand women in Birmingham were recalled after a nurse was said to be using the wrong type of spatula. Earlier in the year, laboratory errors at a hospital in Greenock led to twenty thousand women being recalled. Officials in charge of the Cervical Screening Programme say women should not be deterred from having tests although they couldn't rule out more mistakes. We will see maybe some more of these. We'll kee got to keep on getting it in proportion that ninety nine percent of them have been done right and that's as to the seven hundred tests in out of four point five billion, is very small numbers indeed so the vast majority of women can be reassured. Health officials in Gateshead are now investigating why firm action wasn't taken earlier. To prevent a G P in their area disregarding national guidelines with the result that hundreds of women now face the distress of further testing. Fergus Walsh, B B C News. British Rail's Network Southeast which covers many of the most heavily used routes in England, has announced fare increases from January averaging six percent. Some fares in Scotland are also going up by six percent. The rises are between three and four times the rate of inflation. Rail passenger groups say they're disgraceful. Fares in other regions are due to go up in May. Network Southeast carries passengers three hundred and ninety million passengers a year, more than half the total for the whole of B R. So although off peak increases have been pegged at four percent, today's announcement affects huge numbers of commuters. It'll hit travellers as far apart as Exeter, Peterborough and King's Lynn. On some lines season tickets will go up by eight percent. The cost of an annual season ticket between Cambridge and London, rises from two thousand three hundred and forty to two thousand five hundred and twenty eight pounds. Between London and Brighton, the cost goes up from two thousand on hundred and seventy six to two thousand three hundred and eight. B R says such rises were inevitable given the present state of its finances. We've got a two hundred and thirty million pound gap to make up and just to put this into some sort of context, the fares will give us slightly less than fifty million. So most of our effort is actually going into reducing our costs. We're dismayed that Network Southeast is seeking to put up season ticket fares by up to four times the rate of inflation on some lines. That just cannot be justified er by the quality of service being provided. The fare increases would have been bigger but for the governments last minute intervention. Even so, faced with a possible back bench rebellion over privatization of railways, the latest increases are embarrassing. The Prime Minister and every member of the government wants to hold fare increases down to reasonable levels and I'm pleased that er at six percent average, that's a reasonable contribution by the travelling passenger on British Rail and London Transport to the enormous investment sums that are required. Next April B R will be split into twenty five separate businesses and lose control of tracks and signalling. But however it's divided, the financial dilemma will remain. Christopher Wain, B B C News. West Midlands police have formally cautioned a motorist for stopping his car in the fast lane of the M Six to change a tyre. When the police arrived to rescue the driver, who'd parked on a blind bend of the motorway, he'd explained that he hadn't wanted to risk ruining his tyre by driving the extra distance to the hard shoulder. The entire incident was captured by police video cameras as Liz Munroe reports. The motorist had been travelling Northbound on the M Six near the Walsall and Wolverhampton turnoff. He decided to change his flat tyre in the fast lane on one of the busiest stretches of motorway in Europe. As dozens of cars swerved to avoid him, some just narrowly missed colliding with other vehicles. The scene was captured on police cameras and watched in disbelief by officers at a nearby control room. Motorways are dangerous enough place at the best of times. To actually stop on the hard shoulder is very dangerous. But to do it in lane three, to get out and change a tyre is beyond belief. That particular stretch of the motorway is in is very very busy, where he stopped was just round a fairly blind right hand bend and traffic was approaching that at their normal lane three speed, and they were faced with a stationery vehicle. A police car finally arrived at the scene and officers spoke to the motorist. he told them he'd stopped in the fast lane instead of moving to the hard shoulder because he didn't want to ruin his tyre by driving on after a puncture. The police had to revers their patrol car down lane three to try and warn other motorists of the danger. A policeman then had to bring the traffic in all three lanes to a standstill while the motorist and his passenger crossed to safety. The police simply cautioned the man, but they say that with so many vehicles having had to break and swerve, it's a miracle there wasn't a serious accident. Liz Munroe, B B C News, Birmingham. The time is six seventeen and still to come, the pop singer George Michael goes to court to try to get out of his recording contract. He says it's too restrictive. Plus, hundreds of jobs to go as Euro Disney's troubles continue. One of Britain's most successful pop singers, George Michael, has asked a High Court Judge to declare his recording contract null and void. He says the contract with Sony music is too restrictive and the company takes too much of the profits. Even if he loses the case, the singer has said he'll never record for Sony again. This case if George Michael wins, could transform the music industry by increasing the independence of artists. He claims the great record company he signed to as a teenager has become part of a giant electronics corporation. And though his contract has been renegotiated, he wants it declared void and unenforceable. Contracts like George Michael's can last a professional lifetime, the artist gets the security he craves early in his career but hands over the copyright and much profit from his recordings. He's had a series of clashes with Sony, which his counsel says was unhappy when he wished to play down his sex symbol image, and didn't put its back behind promoting recent albums. It's gone to it's got to a stage where he made that statement which he very very much means, he will never ever give them another album of his to market worldwide. But that could mean that he never sings again if he loses this case. His attitude is so be it. Central to the singer's case is what his Q C Mark Cramm calls the unreasonable duration of the contract. Which has now run for five years and could continue for another twelve to fifteen years, until he's supplied the remaining six albums. But Sony is expected to argue that this contract has moral and legal force, was freely negotiated and is of a type common in the industry. George Michael's counsel told the court that Sony has made worldwide profits of over fifty two million pounds from the singer's recordings, whereas Mr Michael has made profits of over seven million pounds. An imbalance of seven to one. But he said that this case is not about money but about the contract which effectively it's argued is a restraint of trade. The court heard of royalties that vary widely between countries and of a Sony deduction for packaging in excess of the actual cost. But the big record companies say they need elaborate long term contracts to invest in new talent. These could be threatened. If George wins, erm a lot of artists are gonna be looking at their contracts and erm those that are signed on similar terms will no doubt want to er er renegotiate. George Michael will be giving evidence and the case could last till Christmas. Wesley Kerr, B B C News, the High Court. Britain's so called special relationship with the United States has come under strain after President Clinton claimed that Britain had let America down by not backing its policies over Bosnia. He made his c his remarks in an interview with the Washington Post. Today, Baroness Thatcher, who formed a close relationship with President Reagan while in office, said any breakdown in the relationship must be mended. Lady Thatcher wasn't making the point but others were. When she was Prime Minister, relations with the United States and in particular he personal contacts with President Reagan, were far more special than they are now. And as she took part in the publicity drive for her memoirs, she stressed the importance of close ties with Washington. Whatever is wrong now between the Americans and Europe and especially Britain, it must be mended. The Anglo-American lati relationship has done more for the defence and future of freedom than any other alliance in the world. Soon after President Clinton took over, after talks with John Major, he claimed a continuation of the special relationship with Britain was not in doubt. But serious trouble erupted when his Secretary of State, Warren Christopher, tried to get Europe's approval for lifting the Bosnian arms embargo. Britain and France refused to back the plan and in the Washington Post at the weekend, President Clinton complained, the French and British felt it far more important to avoid lifting the arms embargo on Bosnia, than to save the country. John Major told me, he wasn't sure he could sustain his government is he agreed to American policy. Warren Christopher was even more dismissive. Western Europe, he said, is no longer the dominant area of the world. It's no secret that we had disagreements with the British and the French on how we should best approach the issue of Bosnia. We had one position, the British and French had another. Er in August er at er at NATO we managed to resolve those and get a a combined position. The foreign office were also keen to stress that this was old news. Officials insisted relations with Washington were now excellent. But a former official who had been Lady Thatcher's senior advisor, warned of the dangers of America turning aside from Europe. In the future, we've got to keep the United Stated engaged in the world. It's got to go on playing a world role. It'll be the more willing to do so if Britain is alongside it. Of course not on the same scale, but there helping, supporting. The government takes the view that President Clinton was simply addressing domestic critics of his foreign policy and that his complaints shouldn't set the alarm bells ringing. But the incident has drawn attention to the fact that since the collapse of the Soviet Union, Europe with Britain as America's main ally can no longer expect to be guaranteed a place at the centre of United States foreign policy. John Sergeant, B B C News, Westminster. Euro Disney is cutting nine hundred and fifty jobs from its workforce of eleven thousand. The company says that most of the losses will be in administrative and management positions, not among workers in the companies Paris theme park. It's the latest setback for Euro Disney which has been losing money since it opened eighteen months ago. The Disney hasn't quite worked this side of the Atlantic. Ever since Europe's largest theme park opened eighteen months ago, it's been cursed by financial problems. At the start they had over fourteen thousand people working in the park, after today's announcement, they'll have just over ten thousand. And then there's the problem that visitors to Euro Disney are bypassing the shops. Preferring to spend their time on the attractions. Unlike in America where much of the revenue comes from spending on merchandise and in restaurants. And there were cultural miscalculations too. This Summer Disney finally relented and allowed alcohol to be sold after they realized that the French were not interested in eating if there was no drink on offer. As the French franc went up, so did the cost of visiting Euro Disney. And then came Europe's worst recession since the war. The park has tried to repair the damage by cutting prices at the gates and in the hotels but visitors still complain it's too expensive. I think er when you go to the hotels it's overpriced. The hotels are very expensive. I think it's er I think for the Summer not for the Winter. Here it's very cold . And the empty car parks are a testimony to that. It can only get worse as the long Winter stretches ahead. On a freezing October Monday like this, the visitors aren't exactly flocking through the gates. Disney had considered closing the park during the Winter months but instead they're offering a whole package of cut price deals. It may not be enough to save them. Kirsty Lang, B B C News, Euro Disney. At least three people have been killed and two critically injured in a shooting incident at the American military base at Fort Knox. A civilian gunman is reported to have gone on the rampage at the base in Kentucky which houses the nation's gold repository. The gunman is still believed to be at large, police have sealed off the area and are checking all cars. A new type of television service that allows the viewer to select videos on demand is causing friction between cable television companies and British Telecom. The cable companies fear huge competition from the system and the hundreds of new uses for the domestic television sets that are being developed. Our media correspondent Nick Hyam reports. It sounds like the stuff of science fiction, but soon you'll be able to order up concert tickets while watching television using your set just like a computer. To see if there are any tickets available, you click on the arena. It's called interactive television. Huge amounts of information can now be compressed digitally and sent in both directions along television cables. So you can play along with a television quiz show using a handset like this, or shop from home. Already cable television companies have installed their telephones in place of British Telecom's in more than two hundred thousand homes. Telephone, television and computer technology are converging and high tech companies are scrambling for a slice of the action. B T's developed a system for sending television pictures down telephone wires. It hopes to use it to run a video on demand service. You ring up, order a film and it's played down to your television set almost immediately. But B T has yet to prove it works in practice. I think a lot of people are getting too excited about a technology which is which has been dreamed up by people who wish it would happen rather than prove it can happen. At their annual trade show today, cable companies expressed alarm at the prospect of competition from B T. There's a government ban on the phone company sending television pictures over its network but the regulators believe the ban doesn't cover video on demand. The government's quite happy with that. I think it would be very foolish of er of the government to stop that kind of er innovation, that kind of er er research going forward without knowing what the end results are going to be. Meanwhile cable companies are pressing ahead to develop their own black boxes which will turn the humble television into a computerized communications centre. Nobody knows quite what services the public can be persuaded to buy or how big the market may be, but nobody neither the cable companies nor British Telecom, wants to be left out. Nick Hyam, B B C News, at the European Cable Convention in London. And the main news again. The defence secretary has announced further cuts to Britain's armed forces, including the cancellation of a nuclear missile system for the R A F. The decisions came as MPs warned that cuts the treasury are said to be seeking, would leave Britain unable to defend itself. Health officials in Gateshead have revealed another blunder involving cervical smear tests. And the Queen has arrived in Cyprus to a row over executions that took place thirty years ago. The next national news is the Nine O'clock News but from Moira Stewart and from me, good evening. Right. Yes, sir. Hello. Hello. Well now, what can I do for you today? Aha. Er there's nothing I cannot, there's nothing wrong, right? Er there. It's when I go to have sex. Mhm. Right. It's . Mhm. It's sore. It's actually sore behind there. I mean Mhm. It's sore. Aha. It's raw. Now when you say it's sore, is it sore? No. at the front? No. Or is it sore down the sides? It's in the sides. It's in the sides. How can I say it?you cough, and then you cough and it goes up? Mhm. Well see like in here you know, it's quite sore. Right. Mhm. It's quite sore as well. Right. Let's get that sorted for you. That's quite easy. I assume it's kind of and of course it is. I can I can have it, but it's sore if you know what I mean. I mean I painful. I don't really . . Yeah. And I just . Now er I mean I've not had or no skin or nothing it's something like maybe Noth nothing broken . Aye. You see inside, you know. Aye. It's, it's, it's th the tissues inside get stretched, cos the side bits. The front bit hasn't much blood in it, but the two side bits when they fill up with blood and they start to stretch, it's like blowing up a balloon. . Aye. And it stretches all the tissue on this inside, and that's what makes it sore. And if you're actually having intercourse the tissues get squeezed, Aye. and that's why you feel, that's why you feel it catching. Right. So we'll get that, now you take this about er oh, say, ten o'clock at night. It's a spe that's special capsule, take it about ten o'clock at night, Mhm. and that will relax the tissues and let it fill up that bit easier . Right. Right. And the other thing you'll find when you're taking this is that you'll be able to get, keep your erection for a while longer, maybe three, four, five minutes longer. So, it helps. Now, I've said on here take one of these at night. Mhm. Er that doesn't, I mean don't take it about six o'clock, seven o'clock at night you could have, that could have worn off by the time the Aye. emotion comes on you. So keep it till maybe half, half nine, ten o'clock. Right. Something like that. You take it and then enjoy it, and that should be a big help to that. It'll definitely take the soreness away for you. No bother . complaint. You sure? Okay then. Right. Okay. Aye.. Don't be frightened to come back if you need them again. Okay? Right. Thanks. Cheerio now. Thank you. To another vital topic session. As you know I've er been holding a number of er small meetings with staff er and one of the questions I've been asking is whether or not there has been a need for the building presentation that we've done for a couple of years er and generally there was the view expressed that yes it was desirable but perhaps in a different format. Er and maybe later in the year when we've got all the details of the firm's financial results for the full year ie after the end of April. So wh what's requested was a a sort of interim report er and so here goes. On major business issues affecting the office, in the July or thereabouts er the Partners prepared their business plan and this is the business plan for the . It's a rolling dynamic plan it's not just an annual plan and it's updated hopefully on a fairly regular basis. We also have a a budgeting process er for the er for the firm's year and we're right in the throes of that right now for next year for ninety four, ninety five but it won't be any surprise to you that the recession er hit the office like any other business or the businesses that you go and see, er quite significantly, er the businesses that we've been looking after, they've stopped investing, they've stopped looking at I T issues and have become very cautious and they've basically taken stock as to where their position is. So it wasn't surprising against that backdrop that we had a fair special work er that corporate activity was pretty flat, er that the price situation was highly competitive, er and of the main part of our practice that was really succeeding was insolvency and corporate care side of our practice. But now, I think, there are signs that er things are beginning to pick up, certainly we're being told things are beginning to pick up and I think probably as an office generally, we're experiencing that upturn, although er every time we get some special job in, suddenly we think we are at the end of a recession and perhaps, you know, it's the next job that really we ought to be looking to. So we were faced with this very competitive market situation and as I say prices and we are really being squeezed on the price front and it was very difficult to get any form of increase in the er in the fees that we were being charged, that we were charging. So the net earnings of the of the office, coming back to nineteen ninety, ninety one, er were fifteen million, they've dropped to fourteen point four million in ninety one, ninety two and hopefully this year, they've steadied at that and maybe will increase a small amount to fourteen point six million. Now against this backdrop we, as a national firm, er have set out our stall to be the leading business that's our our mission stake. So how we're going to actually interpret that and er act on that here in Manchester and we set out our against er er to achieve that on the simple basis of quality and you've heard enough about quality over the last two years to not be too surprised that that's what we've said was going to give us the cutting edge and perhaps put us in the leading position here in Manchester. So we said wanted to be absolutely certain of the quality of the service that we delivered was absolutely second to none. The quality of our clients perhaps could be improved, we don't have very many large plc clients here in Manchester, the competition, er P W's and K P N G have a better or bigger let me say that, bigger er P L C client base than than we do. The quality of our people have to be second to none and so our only asset would again be sensible to ensure that the best people, that we recruited the best people and we retained the best people and we wanted to be profitable, wanted to be lean and mean, hungry and er any profitable organisation is going to be a better organisation as a result of improved profitability and we then finally wanted to improve the quality of our image out there in the market place, we were seen and at least that was I think the Department, certainly my perception we were seen er as being a sort of gentle giant out there. There was nothing really special about that distinguishes us, distinguished us from the pack. So those are our er quality initiatives that we want to er to take and so we set ourselves really basically three broad objectives. Further changes were required to the to the office and to the practice generally er we wanted to maximise on the er er o on the benefits that were going to be derived and the qualities and the skills that we have already got in place er and we wanted to move towards market leadership. But in those general objectives, we then set ourselves the top ten, top ten objectives and how we are going to actually action those objectives er to er move forward and if they were achieved, we thought if we achieved those ten objectives and that's going to take time and as I say it's a dynamic plan, it's going to take two, three years to achieve and if we achieve those objectives then we will have achieved our own rule er our overall mission. So I wanted to raise the profile er of the Manchester office er and er in the north western community. The situation as we saw it was that there were no obvious leading firms er there were firms that had a particularly they were leaders in a particular niche markets for example 's being very aggressive, they were certainly nationally leading on insolvency and they were getting a lot of a lot of beneficial er publicity from that, locally we saw them er as erm th they were very good in the tax field and certainly in the consultancy field, having one of their major consultancy based in by the airport. we saw as probably being fairly strong in the corporate finance field. we saw as being very strong again in tax er and certainly in the er, in the major fields, these fields. So how we , so there was no obvious leader and how are we gonna pull ourselves ah ahead, well we have to improve our media coverage and we've done quite a lot on that, John's been very successful in getting quite a lot of media coverage both for individuals within the firm and for the the firm as a whole. Er we're going to continue our focus sponsorship on and corporate hospitality er we're going to set up er a chairman and chief executives' club which we er, we have now done being and that it's the chief executives' club, it's their club, we facilitated, have er four or so er lunches er a year and a launch lunch for example we have as a keynote speaker. Er and that's been quite successful, about twenty five or thirty chief executives, chairman come to that lunch er each each quarter or so er we hosted about six of us and it's a tremendous opportunity to get to know and be known er in the business community. Continuing with our high profile er lunches, there was another objective,objective, overall objective of raising the profile of the office and finally, within that heading our action point was that er we would look at partner representation on various various bodies, not only partner representation, senior staff representation on various bodies. It's important again that we were seen around in the business community. Seen around er in the city. Er for example Claire 's on the er board as you know non Executive Director on er I've just er become honorary treasurer of the I'm, not quite sure whether that's a plus or a minus at this point in time er and also volunteered to be Chairman of an Airport Supporters' Group so please don't tell anybody where I live . on that . come and sit down the front here to . . O K so that was the first objective, next objective . win more quality plc clients. That it's quite a long time to achieve. We audit ten of the forty main requirements in Manchester but as I said earlier taking P G's and P W's as being er predominant in the larger plc markets. So we have to er set out our stall there to form, first of all identify those target P L C's which we really did want to get close to. Probably we felt they were the sort of client that we wanted or that there was already er a connection that we had er or there was a particular service that we thought we could offer and penetrate them in that way. Didn't have a great long list, perhaps only about six or ten major P L C's . Formed in teams, this task it was then to er across the practice areas whose task it was to get into those clients, get to know them, get to know their industry, get to know the people and find ways in which we could actually penetrate them and er open doors and that was going to take a long time and it is taking a long time. Er the second initiative was to form industry groups, er textiles, retail, er automotive erm chemicals and plastics, none of those industry groups will be surprising to you since those are all the predominant industry groups in the region but again forming groups, three, four, five people again across practice areas to get to know about that particular industry group so that they can focus on er er companies that are operating in that group er put on seminars er and have small workshops, they would attract those sort of people, those sort of businesses in and in that way penetrate the er companies. That's starting to take er effect and is actually beginning to er, to pay off. It will only be small at the outset for example one might get the opportunity to go in and on or might get the opportunity to go and advise on P R P or something and it's not suddenly going to result in an invitation er to . Er on the public sector side this was quite specific, the child's and the public sector er group er were also going to develop an internal audit product for the public sector but they a huge market in fact and we saw er great opportunities for us to develop that side of the er the business and coming very much under the wing quality public er public company clients, very large clients, great potention for us. Next objective,all well and good focusing on the and the and the people like that but let's er also er make sure that we don't forget er not focus on the middle market. The the details of companies in the north west, there are a huge number of medium sized P L C's, once you've chopped off the the top ten, and it's headed by believe it or not and it's registered office happens to be up there at . Once you've chopped off the top ten, there are mass mi middle, medium sized P L C's, the nine million to fifty million turnover er company and they're looked after by some by major firms, some more often than not by the second tier firms, so we can see very much and we can penetrate those er that middle market situation, then these are the companies in the future that will er will probably be the big P L C's and also these it will be easier to get into these organisations er with the services that we have to look through to offer. To that end, again we will probably be stronger in that area but t to that end we formed a group of partners who were going to specifically target er that that market place er we drew from the triple A practice and tax practice and M C S. Looking at the products and the reviews to get into that first those those clients. Er we set up on a regional basis er er Robert talked to you a couple of months ago about the initiatives that he's taking from our and that again is a very much of a cross practice initiative er which is drawing on all the skills that we've got within the with within the office penetrate the middle market sector and we are going to er specifically use er our grounds expertise and er computer audit expertise as a product which we saw would be attractive to these er these sort of companies. One of erm questions which I was asked to address on this occasion was er in connection with the obtaining of new work was why erm don't we er give financial incentives to er if they are successful in bringing in new work. Erm I don't have any problem with er with giving people financial incentive, I do have a problem with the concept of er giving people a finesty or a commission or something like that if we're successful in obtaining in obtaining new work, that is not an fashion view, that is not how a professional office of a professional organisation works. If anybody is successful in bringing in new work into the office, clearly that reflects in their achievements and their objectives, merely that reflects in their assessment so far as er their managers and are concerned and clearly that will will be reflected in their pay, so that will be the way that er we would normally tackle and that would be the way I I was prepared to tackle it. Coming now from, down to more specific ways of winning new work, due diligence was an initiative which we wanted to er tackle but not only in this office across the country and across the northern region. We have a tremendous skill base at doing good due diligence work when all said and done due diligence work is really just a focussed audit approach and if we've good auditors, we should jolly well and good er new diligence er provides and we to react to new diligence opportunities rather than seek out new diligence opportunities. Partners and staff are well known in the City,w providers of due diligence work with the major capitalists, with the bankers er with with the merchant bankers and so on and of course our plans for providing us with due diligence work. was going out of this area to the providers of er of capital, for opportunities within this area we can go to London for example be many bankers there who will be being approached by companies within the northern region, north west region asking them for money to support them in their in their ventures. Er so that was a market place that we really weren't tapping from this region, they have been tapping into London. There was great scope we saw for matching marketing, the due diligence product outside er Manchester area er that has been particularly successful we are going to have, well all of you are probably aware of of a significant increase in the in the of due dili due diligence work er very encouraging that er most of it I think I'm right in saying has come, certainly the bigger ones have come from out with the region er and have been introduced to us from bankers er in London, er initially we've had er a lot of support from our er colleagues in London who've effected the introductions in the first place, precisely how the partnership virtually work. Er as a result of the success we've now got to go back and revisit it, I mean Ian you know has been leading in from from this office er and that it's the person contact which counts for so much. So we've now got to go back and revisit it, he's full up er, we've got to look at his client, client load er and we've got to find other ways in which we can actually service the due diligence work, still using him very much as the marketing focus to er the initiative and continue the the growth. Diligence, next one specific er to the er to the tax practice was the need to sort to establish er a a pensions er capability A B C capability, er Leeds office has had an A B C capability for er I think it's erm six or seven years, something in that order. The number of people involved in the sort of work there was er something like twelve to twelve and fifteen people er added up er responsible for A B C. So it didn't make any sense to us to think well if Leeds have got a million pound practice there, why have we got nothing here. It's the same sort of cities commercial centre er let's explore the opportunities, there must be a market place out there er and market place across the north of England must be vast when you think about all the pension funds that are connected to the er to the public companies. Er so we . set out our stock, set out our stall er to er er get a capability here erm, we've already er got er er er we've started a process a and we're going to start recruiting actual area capability in the not too distant future. Er that's going to take some time er to start penetrating again er companies that er will provide us with the er with the work opportunities. That's quite specific to the tax bracket but the source of work in Leeds has been very much from er corporate finance and from the insolvency practice, whilst that is er obviously a way forward for us in the initial stages. We also see great opportunity get into pension funds to help people manage their pension funds and set up pension funds er for clients and and other targets. Then we move on from the getting of work, the erm doing of work to ensuring that the operations are not in going back to our quality, that the actual profit that we are producing and delivering is er of the top top quality. When you have erm we we've decided that it was important that, I mean it seems very fashionable, that we measure client satisfaction. All of us go and take our cars in to be serviced and what have you and nearly always get a sh piece of paper comes back and please will you tick them box on a Richter scale of nought to ten er and they are all the time trying to improve er customer satisfaction. Er this is alright we've done it informally in the past, you know I've talked to many clients some of which I handle some of which I don't and always the question is er are we giving erm a service that we can improve on, if you look dealing with er are there any points you'd like to raise with me, all these sort of questions but it's all very unstructured er and sometimes it's er er results in us having an action plan emerging, sometimes not. Erm so we decided that it was important to try and find some more formalised way of testing what er the market satisfaction was and the service we are providing. That's proved to be quite difficult because the firm as a whole is trying it out but it for example with M C S it can be related to a particular task, to a particular erm assignment, so it's assignment related. They can settle down more easily in those circumstances but the questionnaire is saying, please will you fill in the answer the following questions and let us have it back. Where they repairing client, where there is hopefully an extremely good relationship, we felt that that was a bit dangerous to be sending out a form to the Chief Executive of saying what er do you think of the service. Might not like the answers perhaps that why we are a little nervous about this. Er and so we are looking at ways in which we can actually erm develop this and the firm as a whole is doing that as well and er we are to a certain extent that initiative. We've also er recently been talking to erm a lecturer of the University who is doing a project, a research project, and would like to er offer his services to us in in that er in that project, so we at the early stages but nonetheless I think it is er very important that we do er test the market place and find out what both think of us, so that we with a prime and only objective of improving a service . so we mustn't feel hurt, I'd probably feel hurt we mustn't be er adversely react if we don't like the answers that we get. Watch this space . To improve the quality of our work, these are erm, when I say though the current position is the technical quality is variable, these this assessment comes from internal reviews which are carried out and we have annual quality control reviews in all parts of the of the practice and the answers that have been come back coming back from those quality control reviews have and they're pretty strict reviews it seems, strictly in accordance with the book, strictly in accordance with all the reg rules and regulations and , so if one has deviated from those and it's hardly surprising how very high standards B S five seven five O would have, be quite easy to obtain in most of our practice areas, so it's hardly surprising that there will be occasions when we don't actually er come up with ten out of ten on a on an assignment. There's no excuse for that and if we're er having as one of our major platforms of our business initiative's quality, then er the quality must be right one hundred per cent all the time er so I was somewhat bothered that we were an an disappointed I suppose that we didn't get high ratings in the quality control reviews which were carried out, so to that end we were make make sure the next time we came round with a better score er so er we are looking at what's called hot reviews which is looking at er an audit for example before it's finalised by somebody completely independent of the job carrying out a technical review of the way in which tha that audit has been conducted er we are looking at it after the jobs been finished and probably in the slack season in the summer get people to actually review as if they were doing a dry quality control review of the job er prior to us getting an external review er carried out. Go through those reviews, go through those files to see whether or not they, if the job's been conducted properly. Er I think also helps a lot in this process er and that's that's particularly er relevant of the audit practice almost starting to be reduced into the tax practice as well. So people have been forced to look at the way in which they are doing the work in er conjunction with er the manual for whatever other book of rules they have I wished they'd do they carry out their work. So that figure's also er er it's helped a lot. Erm the other part of course of quality control is making sure that partners and staff er to speak on quality er er it is ess essential that we attend the necessary courses to keep us up to date, it is essential er that the er that we get our C P units, it is essential that staff are not withdrawn from er training courses er when there's a pressing client there er so that we should er ensure that everybody gets the necessary training to achieve this objective. That moves neatly on to making sure that we have the right people to do the job. Erm plans for the succession er and development of senior people and some of the plans this is going back to July er were in place then, most of the plans are in place now erm has probably most of you know are retiring in in October er their jobs have now all been allocated and are in the process of being transferred to the partners. Er that will er be achieved certainly after the end of er this season. Er we want to er develop a training programme for part of selling skills training programme for partners and senior senior managers, senior er members of staff. Partners have already er had that training er during the er during the summer months er it was carried out by er an outside consultant and most of us subjected ourselves to the se selling course, I think most of us derived some benefit from it. We also learnt quite a lot as to how we should do it next time, so when we now to it for senior managers erm come April May time er and hopefully that er training will be improved on the benefit going through. That is obviously something which we've just got to keep topping up but it was recognised by the fathers that will there was we needed to be helped to train to to sell and so we needed that training er to get us get us going so to speak, there were no natural salesmen amongst departments. Erm we also wanted to implement a plan er and this is an ongoing er situation of admitting er young blood to the partnership over a period of of erm five years or so, again that's a rolling programme but the age profile of the partnership in this office is a bit on the aged side er and it should be er younger, it would certainly be healthier if it was a bit younger. specific points in the development of people, whilst that we recognise that the partners in practice was going to go into a quiet spell er something but we would run the risk if that happened on losing the expertise, the skill base that we've got there and the undoubted qualities of the people within , we had to find a way in which we could use that skill base and other practice er of the practice and in fact that's been quite successfully achieved in in recent months er with due diligence work for example er with legal support work is another example, when people in the insolvency practice have been very active on special science weeks ago tree. That was good, that's been very very good I've got , What was that to help us? Oh yes. Are they going to hurt Dr . See the powders you give me to . Yes. My toilet's in my toilet's in. When I take one of them it seems to run in all the time know what I mean Doctor? Aye. Erm every time I get off my toilet it's awfully hot. It's burning is it? Aye I'd . Aha. You know what I mean? Burning down the side right. Well that's that's Going out for a I have a big cos I was on my own there, it's like a a a heavy pain, crushing Aye down at the bottom of your back, right let's get that sorted. It's crab . Getting awfully Never. Aye They don't they don't make crab at the end. Yes, awfully crabby . Don't don't believe that. He's jumping down everybody throat . What's he getting crabby about? The pain Cos it is When he's apologizing Let's get you something to ease the pain and try and get the underside sorted as well. Cos I says to who did that? Was it the therapist? I see me I've been coming off my and she turned round and says, No. She said, You'd rather , she said Aye that's right, that's right, aye, but er sixty six we can do something about that nowadays. He's actually been there to . He just because I'm getting older you know what I mean. Ah you're getting older,away for goodness sake, you're hardly twenty one yet you silly old I wish I was twenty one . Well you never know. Actually Ah, ah don't worry about that, okay? Cheerio. Right cheerio now. Following from Richard and Jenny erm, they both had to attend a meeting in Dublin but it's with absolutely no other alternative. Erm, they have made some progress erm, but there is still one major outstanding item, which Jenny promises, on her return, she will take up complete , which is erm, new procedures for a continuous survey. So, they can't be with us erm. Do we believe that's going to happen very often? Very? Erm, that neither of them can be here, they're both attending the same meeting, 'cos I think it's going to slow down progress, if that's the case. Ros is meant to be attending this meeting in their place but couldn't get . She's coming instead? No, Oh, really. Oh. Just as well she's not here, they didn't do any food for her.. She hasn't got that much of an appetite. Well. Should we make a Yes, I think we should. Can ya. Erm, there are a lot of masses arising from meeting. In answer to Stella's question, it'll happen very, very rarely. Hardly ever does Jenny leave this building. Okay. It's just that was the whole purpose of having the two of them. Yeah. It's just that the er, Southern Ireland due to T G I. It must be right, assuming it must be. Oh . There are an awful lot of masses arising, probably most of this will be covered again as we go through the other items on the agenda. So shall we erm, take the rest of the writing at the very end? When you might have ticked off all the other things. Okay. Yep. Which leads that on to erm, suggestion forms. I did circulate a brief note to everyone before Christmas because it became clear in our autumn debrief meeting that there was some confusion about suggestion forms, and whet . They went and told you where it was. Richie is coming. Erm, the confusion was whether suggestion forms should be er, restricted to suggestions about procedures in the quality system. Whether suggestions should be restricted to procedures or whether they should be general company-wide suggestions about everything and anything and the latter, who is responsible for sealing the suggestion, actioning it and making it move forward. And, I think Alan, this actually arose in, in, erm, our suggestions because you felt that what do with procedures. That's right. And therefore in a sense, it might be down to departmental management that it wasn't something that the suggestion system should encompass. Erm, I put a proposal forward in this saying, I think. Which didn't come to everybody of course. It didn't, no. Who did you send it to? Divisional policy managers, Elizabeth and Richard. Er, my suggestion is actually that er, the suggestion form should be suggestion forms and we must all suggestions to start. If they're procedural they go to the procedure owner who follows them through, gives feedback to the person making the suggestion, in the way that we decided already, and if they're not procedures then the divisional quality manager picks them up and deals with them appropriately, either within the division or by bringing . Seems reasonable. Agreed . You'll never be able do, train people to design, whether a suggestion will or will not fit. The implication of this though is that where a member of staff makes a suggestion about the way the department should be run, where the divisional quality manager thinks that suggestion should not be taken aboard er, feedback has to be given and, and some reason why. In other words, we don't just discard the suggestion . on the other one. Yeap. Is everyone happy with that? So,will probably come back to you now. Oh, it all right, we did handle it, that issue anyway, separately, so that's, we probably did receive your outline there. Yeah. Yeah, Okay. Erm, that will mean a further change to the suggestion procedure in term of the application of it. Yep, whose is the suggestions procedure. Mine. Simon. Is that so, that will do. At the moment it says, it describes how suggestions for improvements to the systems and procedures are generated. Or is that good enough as it is. That will cover, that covers the changes That covers the suggestions to the procedures and such like. But, all you're saying is that you're not going to restrict your suggestions to that. Our suggestion box, yes . You just meaning that someone else is gonna sort them out , so you won't need to change the procedure unless you want to cover in that procedure this alternative route. It's just it's a postbox, in other words, the suggestions box. Sub which are relevant to . Are you saying we don't need to change? Mmm, yes . You don't need to unless you want to , include it. You don't have to change it. I wouldn't change it. Your proposed division to that procedure Simon, already allow for the responsibility to these suggestion s to be either divisional quality manager or a procedure officer. That's how I think it will stay. Yes, it's, it's really the application that possibly needed changing. Okay, the next item generally suggested we formed . Again, I think we should deal with these in, in two parts. Those which are suggestions towards review and procedures. I think maybe we should take as we look at all the procedures where we have suggested be draft. Are there any other suggestions that are around, which I'm not specifically relating to, specific procedures. You're looking at me. We went through them. I don't think so, but weren't they all to do with , Richard . I think they are So, you will have a procedure coming up soon where you will recommend a change based on suggestions of the company. Yes, in the main. Yep. Sorry, when I say in the main, some of it I might, I just want to clarify with the quality committee as to whether they agree or not. Right. I have one suggestion in relation to Q P twenty-nine, quality forms. It's just that two people asked if we could just print the form relating to what is in the master job file and it on the same colour paper or card as the erm, job files. I think that plastic wallets inside the job files. Erm. Richard's after that as well. Yes, there were about three different people wanted company suggestion about that. In fact, we clearly, we agree just an instruction to sample to . I don't think I do agree there. It means the whole sale change of forms and colours and it must reduce the range of other colours that we have for other forms, don't necessarily go into those wallets. It had all sorts of implications. There will be surely, there'll be forms on other colours at the moment that match the wallet colours. So have we got to change. Well, there's not much, there doesn't seem to me to be much point in in having pink forms to go into pink files if there are pink forms that don't go into pink files. So, we'd have to change the colour structure on everything.. Anyone else got any views on this issue? I think it's a nice idea but I don't, I think once we've settled down we'll get used to it. It seem, I mean it does seem like a good way at the moment of making it easier for everyone to use the system , but I don't know whether it's vital. I don't know how many colours there are er, because There's four wallets. you only want four wallets, if you've lost four colours is that too drastic or not? No, there are probably other forms already existing on those colours, we presume we would have to take off those colours. We only probably have to take seven standard colours off in the end. Er . No, if you think of it from the users point of view, not necessarily. Not necessarily. All I'm saying is the forms that are mentioned in the procedure that have to go in those wallets ought to be in those colours, so red, so pink . We've just gone on pink onto red . Yes, but then do all, all costing forms have to on the same colour? Yeah. Because at the moment we have different costing forms on different colours so as to know, to differentiate between post or telephone, face-to-face and so on. Ah, colour is used to mean something else . Erm, true. I think it's a nice idea, I just don't think it's necessary. Well, erm, a compromise position is to move part the way there. If there's a form the colour of which is irrelevant, it may as well be on the colour of the wallet. If, if the colour is not signifying any thing else, it doesn't matter if two forms er, time sheet and something else are both on pink, does it. A time sheet should never end up in a master job file. But no, but nobody would ever think of putting it there anyway. But clearly to have costing forms different colours is more important than, yes . And booking forms actually fall into different sizes of cash flow as well. We've got different colour codes for different types of, of things like . They're all together. Has she. They're all yellow. Don't know . And they're all white when they hit our design sheets. No, they're all yellow when I reach , to go in a yellow wallet. Oh. I think this is one of those things which if, when we're in the process of re-issuing forms, we can bring them into line, that's brilliant. But it doesn't seem to be worthwhile to chuck out all the bits of paper we've got and replace them all just to get the colour right. And I, if it'll make it mandatory then we, we've got all sorts of other forms that you can't, you're running out of forms and you can't take a photocopy on . So why don't we reply to the people who put this suggestion that in reprinting it'll be taken into account but there are some reasons that we can't follow it completely and that, two chief of which are different, where colour is used for coding and erm, secondly what Richard has just said. So this is down to So, sorry. I think at this stage we could define for Sandra though, so that we ensure that this does happen and it happens throughout, as and when things run out. We could define the colours to Sandra, yeah, as of now. Yeah. And who is the best person to do that. . All of the mentioned in Q P twenty-nine. Not as colours. No, not as colours, no. But I've just designed . Aah. Are there any other suggestions which are general, not about specific procedures? Erm, can you, can you just bear with me and I'll go through these? Erm, they are about procedures but I would like the committees view on them. Erm, there's many suggestions I've got here, where I've just taken the necessary action in view of the procedures and I don't feel that it's necessary for us to discuss it, if you're happy with that . Right, well why don't you take the ones that you'd like to get discussed? Right, okay, erm, there's no mention of whether we should be keeping a copy of the final and I feel that we should have that in one of our procedures somewhere. Do you agree and therefore is it best that it goes in the research one? No, , printed volume. Printed volume, it'll go in the tabulation one. Okay, that's what it's all about tabulation. Researcher tabulation . Would you not regard a printed volume as tables as part of a report. Well, it might be that we regard it as whether everybody else interprets it that way. But if it is regarded as a report that's covered already. Yes. It's the cases where it isn't. Or in the case whether it changes or not, are not printed . But, if we turn to the copy of the tables I will keep a copy . I think it's still better, I think it's better that we actually just put it in. 'Cos it's procedure, isn't it. Yes. Just make a simple statement at the end of the D P one. A copy of the tables is retained. 'Cos some would go to the information office, for instance B T with any of their , so if we just said. Right, whose responsibility is it to make sure the copy of the final tables is kept. Research. Researcher, right. Okay, so that's that one. Well, that doesn't sound again as though it should be in the D P. Well no, it's our responsibility's to put the researcher in there . No, yeah It's D P and researcher. It's all about data processing and . Yeah, makes sense for her to go in there. Job completion. Yeah. I mean, it's on the job description bit. Yeah, yeah, that's fair enough. So that's you procedure , is it ? You're happy with ? Yes. Erm, Simon, there's one that's come up right field in the fact that we mention, I think you might have got it 'cos you're responsible for the Q P five, which talks about interim reports, services. Yep. And that's not what face-to-face call theirs currently. Erm, I'm suggesting they're going to call them interim fieldwork reports. Oh well, I'd followed their suggestion and taken that out. Oh right, okay. So, which way do you want to do it. I expect to get them talked into fieldwork reports. But, not be told? But, not be told. Yes. Alright, well I'll, get that on my account to that. We'll deal with that when we review your document on recommendational procedures. Okay. In the same, well no, we'll deal with that detail when we come to that. Erm, again a suggestion from Richard that he feel, that we feel we need a new, a procedure for creating a procedure. I don't know whether this is necessary but Caroline erm, but when we take on a new type of business which isn't covered by our current procedures erm, say electronic data collection or something, which up until then has been done on paper, that we ought to have some simple statement in a procedure about how we are going to er,ma , ensure that we've got a new set of procedures to deal with that new type of, new system. Can ? You don't have to have one. If you do have one as though it's we're doing whatever document control procedures you've got as to how many are raised and authorised. Erm, the alternative is if you are going to retain some form of erm, quality group, I guess it would be done through that anyway. And, it will just be meant to do that particular . So, it's very much up to you what you want organised. Sort of thing which event will be spotted as part of audit, won't it. You audit a job and it doesn't conform to procedures,, there are procedures to deal with it, it's probably for a major change to that. We know about it before, always used to , we know that what we're doing with B T is, you know, we're starting up clapping. So that we know we've got to cover that and it was just er Caroline, Karen's suggestions were in the external order, was that we, we should draw up some kind of plan, with dates as to say right, okay, we're gonna do the work first. Find out the best way to do it and then by this date we're gonna assume a graph of procedures to work around what we decide is the best way to . And just to actually formalise they've laid out the plan to say that we are actually doing, we are aware that this doesn't combine and we are doing something about it. Seems sensible. Can't it, could it be in the quality manual, rather than erm, have a procedure about how to write a proce , when to start and have a pro . Such the quality committee regularly considers whether it's necessary to have any new Perhaps, we a standard agenda item on every quality committee meeting and, and it be out of the . agenda item . One, one of the things that I think will be in value to you, once the systems in place, is to have some standard agenda items for the quality committee meeting and that may be sensible as being one of them. Yeah. Yeah, I think that sounds about the best way of handling it, doesn't it? I, I'm always reluctant to put down specific methods of writing new procedures, or who's responsible for it, or where it's got to be done because it depends entirely on what it's about. From now on? Yep. Yep, good. Next, Stella. Erm,. No, I think these are then just very general ones that I can deal with myself. Oh, I've got one other . This is er, a , this was not clear whether all the versions on disc prior to M one have previous procedure holders and previous master links which should be kept on record for one year. So all the documentations for the last provision. Yeah. We need help there. The decision is yours. You're saying that your system works as of, M one and everything from N one forward you need to keep. Prior to that, if you've got any use for it keep it, if you haven't. I think we've got a use for it to demonstrate that we, merely to demonstrate we had it er, at least er, on, in March the twenty, what ever it is. I think that . I think we should have. Yes, but all the records of who got issued what. Oh no, oh no, I mean the old procedures. Keep the procedures. We certainly need to keep the minutes of all the committee meetings. Yeah, the procedure says for a year. That's not a problem. It's really all the old, old procedures and distributions. Yeah, I think they could go. Any other general suggestions which aren't linked to a specific procedure that we're gonna review? I've sort of got one there. I don't know whether you want to have it now or at the end. It's about erm,about seething inspection, which is a, a clause that we're not covering these without checking that when you buy, that when printing all the paper when it gets here we actually carry out a check. Is there something in the boilers commission? There's something down on the subject. erm, I've drawn something out, just a quick memo out putting the sort of details in erm, a bit more. I think I've covered everything on it . And what do you propose to do . To re-issue the staff or to incorporate the to it. Yeah, I'll look at, er. I think Richard's asking the question shall we take this item now or later. Erm, let's take it now. Is it ultimately going to be a procedure then Richard? That's er, what John trying to understand. It will be , it might be. There are bits in all over the place. The discussion that Richard and I had, my recommendation was that it was not a big enough thing to cover a separate procedure for. , sausage roll? Right. That what it relates to is, if you subcontract certain items like , exactly the same way as your ordinary one one line in whichever procedure deals with checking . . Erm, it really does make sure that it's covered in all the areas where it's, where it's needed specifically. Where it's not needed specifically then we can have a very general statement probably after the . Fair enough. Okay, well why not circulate this and what we should do is read it, agree it and then decide which procedures need minor adjustment on the straighter principle . We've gone over this before. . We need an inspection. Do you want some fine?. Any comments after reading? It seems remarkably sensible apart from writing down exactly what Marie has to check. You can see she . . How, how do I check ? It's, it's not that you would necessarily an individual area. Where, when you sub- contract some international work, at some stage you get something back that you checked and it looked like a right pig but . You wouldn't got . And partly it was the final report that you . It's really just because backing fieldwork might be slightly different from checking normal supplies which will be quality and quantity. There might be specific things that you want to check around the fieldwork like the number of respondents er, the type of respondents . It seems to be easier, as a procedure only you can take on all of this idea, but if your not clear about the detail bit . something to the research at the end of the delivery or whatever it is. Confirm that you still have to work with . . good. Sometimes it takes a bit of a while to . This is why I don't think it sensible to have a separate procedure for it, 'cos it's so simple. have to push it in the right place. . Sorry, I was just going to say that this and the individual department activities seem fair enough. It's the purchasing of paper, what the implications are of that. . Yeah, in selection of B twenty erm, paragraph five, it does say that erm, supports order book would record if there was any unsatisfactory performance. Now, that in itself implies that everything you receive you check to see if it is as specified. So are you saying they need to expire that paragraph? Yes, it's, it's coming not to sub-contracting but just your ordinary purchasing. I'd like to When you or , when you order five hundred reams of paper, do you get five hundred reams and is it of the right quality from the sheets. Yeah, which is precisely what they're doing in the order book. So, then all we have to do is make that a statement. Just very quickly ? Erm . No, I think that, are we, that, that do you think we are? If for every sh Every ream Pallet of paper that comes in, is us , some sort of check used to go on, didn't it. Erm, the order book is ticked off, each order that's in there it's ticked off as being complete. It's as, what I'm looking for is that the people who tick it off as being okay know what they are looking for, and that maybe that it's the right number of boxes, it might be it's the right grade of paper, whatever it happens to be that, that, if they tick it to say it's right, then that's what, that they have checked in some way. The correct number. Yes. Some sort of phrase in the type that Rita's just bought up. Upon delivery erm, the items are checked against the original er, order. All we're looking for is that you've got what you've ordered. If that's under control that'll be quite easy to demonstrate in the print shop, quite easy to demonstrate in Maries too. When we run into trouble is say, when we're buying software or some hardware, computer hardware for instance, when we have no sub-system operating there. Purchases are up more than I thought people purchasing all the time is , that's fine, they've got a system, we can describe that in a paragraph here and that'll satisfy them but there's more of a problem when we're buying in the software, more than a one off thing. If you order one copy of a programme, you get a copy of the programme, you put it in the machine, if it works, it works, if it doesn't. In this . Erm, on software we said we said we had to add that into our procedures anyhow, last, on our last year view meeting, didn't we, which is what we've done and we've also as of today set up a system of logging new software coming in and signing it. But Oh right That's only for the banks though isn't it? Erm, we've called it Critical Application Software. Erm, but I do, I mean if we were hogging another, I mean, if we got in the new, like you just got in the new software for the Mac Yeah I mean you're not really, you put it through it's paces to see if it would do what we wanted it to do but that's not actually . Although I haven't , well I haven't marked up anywhere that I've got it. Erm, put into the that it was the right packet. What I, one of the things that I, I think you must have somewhere, and that is that at some stage you order something, you get it in and somehow someone has to tell accounts that yes, they can pay that invoice. Well, you sign the invoice. Is that a sensible way of doing it? Does that mean that you've got it and that it's what you wanted. Yeah, it's practical way of doing it . To cover the ad , to cover the ad-hoc things. I mean, I think that when people are purchasing all the time the, particularly the order book, is not sensible, but the ad-hoc stuff is hiding the invoices . Yep. Very sensible. . Well, I just can't see how your accounts would let you get away with not saying if it's okay. What we've, so what it means is we have to make it clear to those people who are authorised to sign off invoices that their signature not only authorises accounts to pay it but also signifies that the delivery has been checked and is erm, is adequate. So . So should we have a phrase in this procedure? What procedure would it make sense for something like that to go in though? That, that's my qu , query on that. Well, the selection of suppliers. There you go, think of two different answers. Well no, it won't mean sub-contracting . 'Cos this could be just stuff that we're just buying in? It wouldn't be in here, quotations are only normally the question from a pre-suppliers? Q P twenty. That's on your page . Yes,, I just said sub-contracting work is where you put something about size of the invoices. I mean, you have to buy from a supplier that's on . Right, well that's, that's about the managements erm, erm, management , the management generation of those . I think that Q P nineteen is about sub-contracting of work and how that happens. Q P twenty is about suppliers more generally. Yes, I believe that's about getting pe , getting the lists of order, keeping them up to date erm. Well, actually there's a phrase for already in here, about sub-contracting. Upon, upon completion of work int , invoices from sub-contractors of checked coded , by a director and sent to accounts. . Or maybe it's sensible for a, an expansion on that, on. Phrase added on . Let's just say that the invoice is checked, coded and authorised and you'll tell me if he says,. So then you could actually say something like that, the item purchased is, check that it's suffice to your requirements. The record of this is the authorising of the The signing of the actual invoice. invoice. Do we have to say sub-contractors ? I think it would be better 'cos in fact, sub-contractors to an outside person, to you sub-contracting meant absolutely everything that we bought that we didn't er, provide ourselves, didn't it. Whereas Erm, only thing is of working with the standard yes, 'cos that isn't what sub-contracting means. I was going to say, sub-contracting to us at, and I don't know whether we're all thinking the same way, at one stage sub-contracting very much meant, to me anyhow, that er, buying out work which you couldn't do your, from your own resources. That, that's what most people understand by sub- contracting and they don't see that it, the standard uses it, in my, in my opinion in the wrong way, because it does, it's standard does require everything that you buy that affects you. Because the way that I erm, I've been working on this procedure and in fact I sense this too, and I have most of what was currently there for research project, project related sub-contracting, in other words sub-contracting with B P or if necessary, which I felt that more or less covered and what it wasn't covering was when a Marie type situation on software , where I was going to put a different section, which is where the report, when it's on research project related company facts, then I pay for the software. Now that may not be the best way to have structured it, but some of the checks that we're imposing at the moment are not necessary to put on paper. Could I draw this one to a close by suggesting that the procedure owners, who own the procedures identified in the take on board the need to make a minor adjustment to set the principle in place and the . In your work on procedures nineteen and twenty you recorporate the sort of suggestion you've had here that general purchases are checked and a record of their checking is the formal authorisation invoice. Do I, for general purposes, have to carry on going through all the cost estimates and and stuff like that? Er, no you shouldn't. It's where you draw the line as to when you need , and that I'm not sure about. If you're using ordinary photocopy paper for internals, stuff like that makes no difference at all. Erm, quality of print paper down the print shop does have to be checked so they may well use as a guide but they won't necessarily go thorough all the cost estimates. Have a go, I'll if you've got problems, then you come back to Richard and Alan. But does that structure seem sensible as well, for research. Just a general . And then a general . I put general. I would call it general purchasing, something that makes sense to everybody. Right, general purchasing. Third time of asking, any other general suggestions, not specifically related to a particular procedure? Okay, well we will come back and we'll go through all the proposed because our last item is our longest item. We're gonna move on now to feedback on progress of virtually every and related document. You also have , I'm gonna set up a sub-committee called the Form sub-committee to meet after Christmas er, to review this work, once it's been done and decide what to do with the, all the other forms that aren't versions. Er, Stella, could you take us through how you're getting on in terms of your forms and related documents. I believe all of the forms in the procedures that I'm responsible for have, and are the one that are mentioned in those procedures are now versioned and dated. Some of them are on N two, that erm, not necessarily, in fact the majority of the forms in the supporting guidelines on manuals are not versioned yet but they, we followed the advice of Roy there and we have listed them in each of the guidelines with a statement of erm, we've just, I mean, a clear listing there of each form and when we actually go to introduce the next time, reprint, we will then put version codes on them. The process of collecting together all of the other forms is a one off operation, the forms that are not referenced. I haven't yet done. To date. No. Okay. I can report back from Jenny and she's in the same position. She's versioned the things that should be versioned and has put out a request to others in the division for copies of any other forms that we use that don't feature in procedures. Simon, how's progress on your side? Er, as far as I know all the forms that were allocated to me have been versioned and distributed out to everybody, so I should have lots of version forms. Since then I've discovered there's a qualitating cost form which I've and er, qualitative data of uniform, not to mention any other , so there's a couple I've got to chase up. Okay. Rita, on your side? I all the forms I've before are version numbered and dated. At the first of last week however, I didn't have a copy of the for the data processing forms out of D P. Er, that's totalled up three weeks . Er, we haven't received a copy of them. The reason for that is it was done on the old viewing system . Oh, right. Because I , people have requested copies. What are these forms ? Which forms are these? Data, sorry and I'm quite happy that they're called Data Processing . I all those forms on my Mac seven years ago, are they still on my Mac. . But the one we're using is done on the Xerox. Can you not just take John's now? If you don't get to the end of it within a couple of days, come to me and I'm sure I've got somewhere on my old Mac . Okay. What did. Visited the research researcher shows. Yeah, okay. Well, that's been dragging on now for three or four weeks erm. That currently isn't a document that's controlled is it? But it should be. It should be is what we've agreed in one of our suggestions, that unless you're talking about something different. Er, I, well, they're referred to as instruction in one place and then processing specification in another. They were on your original list anyway. Data Processing procedures version N one is master copy of all the forms, analysis requirement form, erm, breakdown form etc, etc, etc and they're all there. There not involved in these documents though, are they, currently? I believe they are, unless I'm going . Feedback, please. In Q fifteen, data processing has definitely changed . Erm, yeah. They were listed in your original list on fifteen . Right, and then in Q fourteen instructions are in capitals but not in bold. I think that must be the same thing. It is, and that point we're gonna amend when we re-write the procedures. Right, so they are these things known as data processing specification? Is that what we call it now? Is that so forward? Yeah. There are four different ones, aren't there? Yep. Write down to the staff . Form A, form B, form C and form D. Form E is worse and form F . That's what I, I, I banging my head against a brick wall about. I can't get They're all versioned. said they're all versioned but what I still can't get hold of is, is a copy of . . The job is interview,taped. That's what this is about. It won't take that long. Okay, good. It sounds to me as though we're sort of ninety-five percent of the way towards getting the basic forms in place, versioned and distributed. But, we've still got some way to go towards collecting together all of the other things around the place, so that this extra committee can have a look at it and decide whether these forms are relevant, necessary, should be controlled or not. I'm missing some, I'm supposed to have this master list of related documents and I haven't got them from from Jenny, or has everybody. The reason is that I, I've got them all, yeah . You haven't got them all ? So I need to with Jenny then. And there was one point on my form note which er, was because I'm responsible for recruitment and training procedures, a lot of the documents which, related forms which I should hold as a decision, I should think more sensible for Elizabeth to hold masters of. So I'd like It doesn't seem sensible for Rita to have masters of contracts of employment. So, The way we set up this system management, the procedure owner has the master copy of related forms. What does, what does the . Er, Simon's got copies of some, yeah, but they're the bizarre things as well. Yes, I have but that's er, some more . Training Erm, twenty-eight. It doesn't seem to me sensible that I have the masters of the quality manual, master lists of procedure holders and so on because What, what does your procedure actually say about . Well, in the case of Q P twenty-eight, the procedure says that, I think that Elizabeth is responsible for these forms. The reason why I'm asking the question is that if for example, Richard's responsible for a form and perhaps for the master of it, that doesn't mean to say that you've actually got the folders in your office. You can be responsible for the master of it but ask Elizabeth to hold the master for you Delegate, safe keeping . . And you take the time sheets perhaps as well. And the appraisal? And the appraisal. Yeah, it's all in the one twenty to Q P twenty-six and twenty seven. Well, it's similar for twenty-eight, as well. I mean in says in twenty-eight that, that the quality co-ordinator's responsible for maintaining for example, master lists of procedures, so. So, Q P twenty. You're about to put a proposition to us, later on, about how we change documents in the process form, authorising the change and the re-issuing. Er, am I, yes. We'll return to it when we get there in that case. So, the procedure owner is responsible but can delegate the responsibility for the physical possession of document to someone else. Does that have to be quality ? As long as you know you're responsible for it and as long as Elizabeth knows that she's gonna do it, that's not a problem. Okay, I will then, outside this meeting, take on this task of setting up the forms view the output from all this gathering and decide what, whether we can make a sensible rationing from some of the forms. Probably try and get that in before the end of the month. Well, will that extend things like expenses forms and so on. Yeah. Ultimately, if this , yes, it's an idea. From all the forms we can . They haven't been reviewed for about fifteen years. My be on it. It's alright, don't worry. . Because company, the first line is company, throughout your company name. That's right. Accounts forms, yes. Elizabeth, do you think on behalf of the forms committee you could do a tour around accounts and dig out the forms. Well, I could come up with , I'm sure. Every form that accounts use. No, not forms that are just totally in term. Which only, yes, which are in term with accounts. But all them forms which are around the company which The relationship between accounts and clients are on accounts and . No, well, what I'd be collecting . If you extend that to other divisions, I mean, there are forms circulating Yes, but accounts aren't in . I think they are . I wonder if . No, I don't think so either . Sorry, that's not my understanding to date. That the accounts department is not part of B S 5750 except in its relationship with er, researchers. And clients. And clients over jobs. So, how it deals with the payroll is absolutely nothing to do with B S 5750, how it erm, deals with the bank is nothing to do with B S 5750, its computer systems or anything. It's not in, it's not in this scope . But, but how with the bank to pay our clients . no, we have opted. You can opt to include it and we have so far opted to exclude. That's nothing in here about it. The requirements of the standard itself does not ask you to look at accounts er, specifically, which is why you can choose to include them or choose not to include them. Where you do need to include them is where they have an interface with the rest of the organisation and where they're keeping records of things for the rest of the information. And it just defines on how much you've decided to include. Most people prefer to keep the actual accounting outside. Yes, you're right. In our scope of registration I'd first of all we show the accounts department as part of the company. We say we registry for all market research services supplied by the company including long list. Erm, the scope also includes group index, boom, boom, boom. Choices, in addition to research activity being on behalf of some printing firms to external clients. So that's what we've said is the scope of our registration. So, you don't need to include your accounts. Now, coming back to the point you were making about them paying your suppliers and such like, erm, all the standard is looking for is that you use proof suppliers, that you get what you want, when you want it. Now, if you find that you are not getting, yeah that's right, if you find you are not getting things when you want them, and that is because accounts have not paid them, then you need to put in some collective action to resolve that problem. Do we need to put anything in the front of our, our quality manual, in the scope of registration, which'll make it clear that the day to day of our accounts department are . No . You will only need to put something in if you want to include them. Okay, good. So, what forms did we say that Elizabeth was collecting? The, this is nothing to do with B S 5750 now, it's to do with your review of forms, those forms which are to do with the relationship between accounts and er, researchers, I know will be en ooh, sorry, research and other staff. You don't even really need to look at the forms er, between thing and clients, do you. I mean, their, what their invoices look like and all that sort of thing. Unless you want to. Could form a sub committee . No, no. Yep . Yeah, we'll collect all of those forms, yeah. Okay, I say, I will try and find a day to suit everyone.. It's time sheets and expenses forms . Who was on the form sub committee? It figures er, that the four, the sort of quality managers plus er, Richard and Elizabeth. I'm not on it. Richard, no you got . Elizabeth then. Oh. There's five, possibly six. Right, we hope it's not necessarily, we could delegate this. Well, not for the first meeting. We looking at the first meeting to make sure. If you delegate it, then the authority need to get these forms in, get to actually doing what they've been asked to do . But is this, is this minute, is this action still the same? Is it that we're bringing the forms to this form meeting? Yes.. It might be fun to be there. I should think it might be quite amusing because it'll be old forms that nobody has seen before . Yes, I was just thinking it'll be hilarious . Some of them might be sixty year old, John. We're booking the town hall As the last said, it does not have to be , 'cos you felt that someone else had some more energy , 'cos you're praying for energy performs and you sited some examples. I will name some of D Q M's prior to setting up the meeting . . I've also discovered you've got a, a in here as well. We've got an R A F now. A Ludwig? Research have proven . Okay, progress on forms doing well, some way to go though. New continued survey procedures, this is the one area of our activity about which I am concerned. I have expressed my concern to Jenny and to Richard . They both appreciate it. They assure me that er, preparatory work has started on this erm, and that when Jenny gets back from Dublin this will become top priority for her. Because it, in a job that can't be done in isolation, to complete this procedure or procedures, we may have been plural, needs er, consultation with er, certainly with Simon's division in quite a substantial way. Erm. . So, er, of all the things that we still have to do before erm, er, our proper external audit, this to me seems the most critical and if we don't complete the task, it seems to me, in the next week or two, the likelihood of it being in place and auditable in our next trial is very limited. Erm, so what would you do? I think that . I would like to make an observation. If, as I understand it from what you have just said, you're relying on Jenny to write a procedure, which is gonna cover all of the other continuous things and you're gonna get that ready by this particular date if you , the suseption was that it simply won't occur. It may occur that Jenny write, writes something that is appropriate to T G I. There's no chance of it being right, any good for B T . That was what was going to happen . No, no, she was going to write for T G I and then we were going to see whether it was appropriate. Well, if you write a procedure for T G I then you know it won't be. No, I mean You absolutely know it won't be, the other people may as well start work already. Well this is, yeah, although that's what was all agreed at the last minute. Yes, no. But now there has been the lapse of time and Jenny has not met that timetable. However. Richard has sent a note erm, based on the audit of health monitor to Simon, Susannah, myself and John, talking about health er, monitor audit and how we possibly should be treating that. Erm, his view, why are you all laughing? I'm just saying it did jolly well. Yes, it did. Sorry, there was noth , nothing to suggest crit , any, I'm not criticizing it, it's just an illustration of the continuous job. Erm, Richards view having seen some of these reports now, for the continuous surveys, is that we actually really do need a T G I procedure and then another procedure, very simple, just stating how the continuous surveys are different for Access, B T, health. Those types of operation. I think all it, well, the only things that are different with the continuous pro er, surveys that we've got, from ad-hoc surveys is actually the content of the questionnaire and when it was analysed, really. Everything else flows through . Does the costing impair . Well, costing's okay, it's done throughout, you can refer back to it. Erm, it's also concepts like what is the job, when is it finished and there are . So, that's what Richard means by analysis period . by analysis period and so you just need something that says, a health monitor you need something that says, we do analysis on this every four weeks, we get a filled review form for every list that we do and this is the filing system and everything else follows. No, it doesn't. There's a a core monthly . No, I know, but we better that and then we specify they're our modules . Yeah, but then , yeah, the modules then don't follow the same time periods. It doesn't matter. As long as we say they're our modules and these are As long as it says how it operates Yeah,. . Why do we need these? Why don't you just . I mean it actually follows through. Doesn't it follow through the procedure? Why do we need to change the time period ? It does follow through, it's just not very clear if you're going to audit it, you looking at it and you don't know what week. Yeah, and as far as health monitor is concerned, I think it follows those procedures . Right, things like when the data review form gets generated and that's, because there isn't a planning meeting then it doesn't follow procedures. There is a planning meeting . Bits of it but not for the standard stuff. All I thought was that health monitor basically follows it but it just needs a, a little bit of clarification so that everybody knows exactly when forms are supposed to be produced. But does that need to be in procedures or does that just need to be in the master job file . I think it's contracted for about two more months. Well, yes but then . Yes, there's a principle, yes , that wag and there's other things going on. B T now are developing a whole set of procedures, well, a whole set of activity around controlling their work which is completely different from the way B T used to work and different from, I suppose, most other bits of the company. It's got a whole sequence of job numbers which cover the data collection and all the admin forms get, arise out of the data collection vehicle. It's got a whole completely separate sequence of project numbers which are reporting in analysis classes which are the, the things that research team manage through on, which reports are repaired. And there's no relationship at all between those projects and any other part of the system in terms of, costings and all the other things that happen, and the project review will happen on the monthly data collection and not on individual projects. I mean, it does need to be thought through and written down. And it's not going to, I mean John is right, it, the T G I one that Jenny writes, what is, it will not cover the other continuous jobs. It can't, it just so difficult. . No, it wouldn't. These are more relevant, isn't it? Yeah. It seems that we need one possibly for B T given what's been said, John . B T, possibly as well. I don't know whether generalised T G I proceedings will still apply to all of those. No, not all of them. I think we're basically alright, a lot of the continuous jobs, 'cos they do, they are virtually the same. Erm, all we need to make sure is that the filing system we've got is clear and is understandable and we've got it written down somewhere how works. It doesn't necessary make the procedure. Can I make a suggestion about, probably not relevant to B T but might be relevant to the other continuous jobs, if like health care it nearly follows the procedure that you've got at the moment and that is that in that procedure you have somewhere a line that says that your continuous jobs at the beginning of the job, or early on in the job, in the master job file there is put a note of which parts of the procedure apply and which parts don't, or how filing is done, or whatever bit is different, which allows you the flexibility for each job to have it's own, to have it's own small procedure that forms part of the master job file, that says this is how this one is done, if those differences are very small. To have it's own manual. We need that, we'd need that little extra line on lots and lots of procedures Well. Not necessarily. Erm, I'd need to have a look through. There should be one point at which we can put it and put it in just that one place. Would we have a procedure which was called er, continuous surveys, which as paragraph one dealt with this and as paragraphs two onwards dealt with T G I? Yes, it could be incorporated into T G I one saying by being called, continuous including T G I, the first paragraph could get rid of continuous surveys which, and I think what would be required there would be to say that continuous survey follow ad-hoc, all the continuous surveys except T G I follow ad-hoc procedures where appropriate. Where systems specific to that survey are set up they are er, documented er, in the master job file. Would that do? And then could one's T G I statement. Does that seem sensible Susannah? But this thing we're always saying about continuous jobs, isn't it. That you've got to have it written down somewhere for when someone takes over. When Susannah, when. Yeah. I will make that feedback to Jenny so that she's clear, I think that's a good way to handle it. It still means, however, to be up and running and organised at the erm Three continuous projects, or four Have the, their equivalent the erm, thing . I'm, I don't but with this T G I they have got a manual for T G , T G I and it may be that the procedure for T G I only needs to reference that manual if that manual is and it may be that if B T need a similar thing they will obviously have one specifically for B T. That is reference in the procedure and everything else is referenced on either using the ad-hoc one or the ad-hoc one with the exceptions in the master job files, and it may be as simple as that. Just says . They will then have a manual. Yes, good idea. So it's really a case of just ensuring that the T G I manual does cover all a, it, it needs to state where it takes over from the procedure and then it needs to ensure that it covers everything from there on about T G I, because erm, just from thinking through some of the other procedures, I mean, it doesn't, T G I doesn't come into the costing, or at least it's got it's own costings. Yes, it's got it's own Costings procedure. Yeah. Erm, and providing the T G I manual takes over from that point and covers all the requirements. Effectively I suppose, what the best thing to do is to check the T G I manual against the, against the erm ad-hoc procedure and providing it covered all the things which are in the ad-hoc procedure, it should be okay. It sounds as though the continuous procedure has now come to be, really very short. It says, in general continuous quality and company procedures, where they go a specific er, manual for the survey is lodged in the master job file and I suppose the only final thing they need is that, well Simon, you continue the surveys in their set up period, there may be a time when that manual does not exist, during the time we keep deciding . Your wording was not quite good enough John, because there isn't going to be a manual for finance monitor or a manual for health monitor. So, there's only gonna be a manual for T G I and B T. The other . Can I play with and see if that is the case. Yes. The continuous surveys procedure will state at the beginning that continuous surveys will contain in the master job file details of the extent to which that survey will follow the standard procedures. And what it does, where it doesn't. And alternatives where they won't follow the procedure. And then that continuous procedure would also say something like T G I And B T. Erm, and B T have a manual that describes their the detail . in de , the detail of the operation, yes . There's not a of manuals? No, I think what it was all covered adequately in, with exception to the procedures there, I think we, we felt that it, all the points were covered. All of them, yeah. With, you know, various suggestions that er, Sarah also made. Yeah. We were hoping to be able to work with the, that. Are you alright, taking that in place of Jenny or would you like No, no, that's fine. I mean, she may wish to speak to you as well, but I can explain it to her. Fine, okay. It should make . That's 'cos pin on it. So, let me, Simon, when we get back to, to your division we've really got to sit down with Graham and Peter now and erm, get it as part of their work to produce. Will you find it easier than me to say , what their . Er, yeah. When we're writing this But I would still like your responsibility as division quality manager to make sure it gets done. There's no escape, Simon. When we're writing the, the things that don't apply in the job file we have to, presumably we have to reference procedure, say we're not following this Q P five point five but we are doing . This is a general facility we might like to write in which we would allow us to work like that on any job there isn't for some reason a job, a good reason why a kick-in procedure can't be followed, that we deal with it by having em,in the master job file which states that, states the deliberate erm, position rather than an accident. I think you need to think about your title for this procedure and it's best title may not be continuous. It may be continuous and non-standard project, yes. Something like that. I know that they are all non-standard. The idea, the idea of it though and from an auditor's point of view one of the things they will be looking at is that every one where you wrote when we are not doing this must have a valid reason and a new methodology must be met on how you are going to cover that particular aspect and that must be authorised. In practice it should be easier to do it the standard way Yes. than to raise this document for doing . and indeed it ought to state something like rarely. Yes. So that's another point for looking at, the drafting of everything needs authorisation. Yes. . Good. drafting . Drafting right, all of it including . I feel better about that. It is probably true, its probably the case that every single person in the room is better placed to write this procedure then Jenny . Because we've been here for the discussion. I think that if any one else could, because I do know that she has got an amazing amount of work on her plate at the moment But she's still got to do the manual. She'll have to do the manual but if anyone could do the general The trouble is that we don't know erm, whether the manual will meet the standard. I think from the work load point of view from Jenny the thing she needs to do is to write the little bit on T G I that references the manual to make sure that the manual is okay. The first paragraph that effectively has been drafted for her give it to B T is likely to be a repeat of what she said about T G I and I think that will be it then so I don't think that there is any large amount of work other than her work with T G I itself. Indeed in briefing her you may just write out, yeah and just write it. In briefing her, you may just well, take this minute, write it out and say Jenny put your opinion there, and you'll probably find it quicker than actually telling her. . Yes. Will you take it home Richard. Richard will take up pulling this together . Well, Jenny needs to give him in writing what she wants to say. You will set up the old, the basic procedure, Okay, great. the discussion. However, we still have to do the other bit to go in the, yes. Yes, yes, so we then have to, now who is that erm, sorry what are the ones that now have to have this thing in the front of its master job file. Health, Wag, and Wag might be alright and be discontinuous and therefore I should imagine it follows through. Health and Finance and possibly National Power . They need to put that in anyway to see whether they are doing anything. We have done one on erm, which, which gardening audit which is by our definition a continuous job because it happens all the time, but it follows procedures a hundred percent. But that changes its difference every week. Yeah, every month. It's not, it doesn't hap , it doesn't happen every consecutive week does it. If each one, is, each wave of fieldwork is a job in itself which is where these other ones are different, I think that Wag will more than likely be alright. But we need to get . But we need to check it . You ought to do an audit of Wag, didn't you. We are going to, but this is, you've got a classification of continuous service so as part of your audit if it fails, then our corrective action in the future may be to put in this new erm, procedure and write the . . Would also? . There could be several C S M's. . I think, well I should know okay. Well, that's a very creative fifteen minutes. We resolved our fees problem. Hopefully. It all went like that then. Before you pass on that could I just ask one question, which is how far are B T with it? Erm, they have had internal discussion and I believe they are not going to do anything until they get a prompt from Jenny , 'cos that's what they're expecting. Now they don't need it. I think we are have got to go back down again . Because that I think is the, because that's such a large part of the ,T , T G I, even if the manual's not absolutely correct is a long way there. B T was the one really big hole, erm, and others like Health Care, as you say are quite close to the procedure that it's not an enormous hole. Peter has got the task of the B T. He's a trained auditor erm,. . And now we change yellow to red . Simon ha . Simon will take this up after the meeting with B T T and move that on forward. Erm, now we move on to point seven eight of auditing trial audit, now for the next trial audit, the point you raised, Richard. Erm, it's just that I had, I'd told the auditors about but I don't think that anybody's and I was unsure we should do that with . We are prepared to wait until around now like, let Christmas pass and we see what progress we have made, before absolutely finalising both. We have dates in the diary, Karen's got them booked, erm, I see no reason we shouldn't. Er, well, following this meeting, a little update to keep the whole issue nice and hot. Mmm. Mmm. Would you take on this job? Can do. Thank you very much. I would like to know what's to be in it, when is the trial audit going to be, I suppose it's in my diary, em. Of. Fifteenth and Sixteenth February. In a months time. I presume the, the update will also say something about our finalising when we re- issue procedures. What does it say about . Richard we have now conducted some more audits, would you like to give us some feedback? Erm, has everybody got this written out. Er, hmm. Probably, Roz hasn't, although Jenny and er, Richard have had it. Yes, I could do with a copy. Unclear. No, I haven't got it. I'll be quick and ask whether you have also had a debriefing session with the auditors, two sources of feed back . I think mostly erm, I think that the audits have gone erm, very well actually erm, people are following the procedures and they are at times, they are a little bit slipping up erm, enquiries seem to be an area and filling in the enquiry form properly and making sure that it is copied to the divisional enquiry file erm, a few people fell down on that erm, but in most cases the procedures were followed virtually to a letter. There are only minor things erm, Chris suggested changes to the procedures, just tidying them up as we might have expected at this stage really erm. A few areas where people have just got to make sure that they do things, people are mostly clear about what they have to do, erm they seem very, very positive. Good. So no particular things which at the moment you would like divisional quality managers to take on . Erm. Can I just ask about the enquiry form. Does that, does a copy of that go into the divisional file only when some conclusion of that, whether it is going to happen or not, that side. We'll cover that in the next bit of the agenda. I, I , often come across the need to have continuation pages for enquiry forms. I don't know if that's come up at any point. . It seems rather wasteful, well. Does that mean your eleven thing's wrong? Yeah. Yes. Well, no I mean non-conformances, but some of them are quite Some were like. minor. Minor, yeah. Yeah. Some of them were procedural rather than, it doesn't mean that there is eleven things wrong with or the actual survey, it means that some of the things were raised during that, I think that there was a couple of things raised by accounts in that, the fact you don't send a budget form. Right. Things like that which are also covered elsewhere. This is giving you information in three different ways. So those are the jobs that are audited and they are generated by these number of quests, of those.. Lets finish with Roz's point. Enquiry forms, I think if there is too much go on one Well, that's, that's what we're doing, but I mean, it's just a lot of its wasted as there is just one little bit on the second page that is a continuation of the client contact . Just stick a bit of paper on the back . . Let's now come back to this quiff analysis where John was confused and everyone was explaining to each other. Would you just like to make a brief statement of clarification. Okay, in terms of the first bit, all it's completed is the number of quiffs that were raised on each of these audits. You can see the first ones where er, our project base. Now, the number of quiffs raised is not an indication of how well that job went through the companies or erm, because quiffs could be raised quite minor things like one person forgetting to put something on a form or a form not being photocopied, or procedure changes or others Somebody getting a purchase order form or a letter of confirmation. Yeah, they're, they are really very little, there are lots of really little issues rather than any bigger major issues. Maybe in the future you should perhaps adopt the style of Caroline, when speaking to major non-conformists, things are real. . There was another column which said major things erm, there might be a couple of things which I think you need to be a little bit careful with what is your definition of the major non-conformists. Yes. Mine, as an auditor, will mean one thing. I think that within the Company you need to look at major, major non- conformances in two ways, one is the major performance that will give you problems over getting a registration pass over five oh, but in another one a major non- conformance i.e, there's a problem with the job, which is it might only be a minor non-conformance in relation to five seven five oh, but is a big problem for you as a company. So I think you need to be clear on what you are going to use them for. Can I ask something about, as an example the er, the Which work, because it's repeat surveys rather than continuous surveys and we don't therefore have enquiry forms each month. That's alright as long as she. What did you, what was the size of that. As long as it is referenced, as long as you say, on your check list, you say enquiry form is in this other file. That's all you need to do and that's fine then. As in the original file the enquiry form has been copied. Back from February this year or something. What I will do, is I'll split, there are two erm,has got to comply with the procedure or there is a procedure change and I'll split that into two columns so that it's a bit more clear Request for the procedural change has been circulated and should be general item. So that takes on board suggestions that they are attributed to them. Are there any other points in the audit that you would want to bring to my attention. Erm, no, I don't think so. Well that is really quite positive feedback. Good. How many audits do you have scheduled to ? I've got erm, I've got these things called audit time table one, two, three, four, five, six, er, eleven. So before our next trial audit we'll have done about another dozen internal either job or procedure orders. Maybe, no you won't have finished those, but yes we will have done all our . Yeah. How many procedures have we actually audited so far Richard? How many procedures? Yeah. . No, I know they don't but is there anything that we haven't audited then. Yes Of all the things that are project based, they have been audited on those projects, all the other procedures Only three of them . Only three of them have been audited. Right so we haven't yet done the T G I costing for example? There are some Should there, were you expecting to be lots of quiffs on those No no, not in any way, it's just that. One of these down here.. It would appear, I can understand yeah. We've made the decision to audit these erm, the procedure, the ones where the procedures on their own, once a year. Now at the moment I have decided that some things like suggestions erm, will not actually get an audit before the external audit by erm, B S I. I don't know whether people feel that should be changed. What I didn't want to do at times was to overload,I wanted to start off with a time limit as we mean to go on and spread it out through the year and so I have put the important things which are to do with the quality system like internal quality audit erm, non- conformances, the corrective action, training and all stuff like that with an audit before and then things like contract print erm, I don't think we are going to have any problems with I put those for after. Most of those ones you can audit, they really are procedures we've had in place for a year but have been audited before and have had minor changes to erm, the wording. Ones we're really changing are all the quality ones those are the ones we actually audited so that doesn't give me any problems. Not unless B S I we to were to exs , expect to see that we have audited everything before they came. They will not expect you to have audited everything necessarily. Where I have a little concern and that's only 'cos I don't know the of all of it, is that you are picking up, yes very minor non-conformances but in practice fairly large numbers in a fairly short time scale what I would be concerned about is when you get your B S I audit that these other areas that you haven't looked at have got equally this lack of attention to detail, that you end up with not only major break down in your system, but sufficient minor breakdowns in your system, to cause them to say that they won't give you registration. It depends on your level of confidence in those in areas. Could we ask you when you are making your plan of your next trial audit to consider that issue on our behalf and it may well be there are one or two areas which haven't featured certain things which haven't been audited at all, I will get together with Richard before the audit, plan it accordingly. Good, thank you very much. Okay. The other thing that we ought to perhaps consider is whether you should change the timetable at all Richard to look at jobs that people expect will be taught. At the moment we have done it by chance when jobs have come up, there isn't one here for Jeff . He did really ought to be audited, and sorry there are other people as well, he is by far the most extreme person, but then there will be other people as well .. Selective adjustment of the probability. I, I, well I am afraid that the people who have been audited are exactly the people, I mean you would expect Ian and Tanya certainly to be good, you'd expect Philip to be good wouldn't you and Susannah, and Lyn, perhaps less so. Who was audited. Aren't they? Oh. I thought Mark was audited. It was Mark and I and Helen . It was my project, yes all of it. Oh right, so then this isn't of course the . They give you a very good indication . Being audited . But if there are, but if there are other people who. Divisions would like because they are worried about yeah Because B P have asked me to turn up on people. Well I think that it is a reasonable point to make to the divisional policy manager to consider on. Absolutely. The whole point of investing this money on auditing is to give us possible feed back.. I was, by the way, when I was audited I was very impressed indeed with the auditor. Did you have the auditor . Yes. To come and talk about something she knew nothing about, all of her questions were exceptionally well thought through. Sandra . She's always, she has had compliments paid to her in the past, hasn't she. I think so. Yes, yes. . Anything else on auditing then before we move onto the meeting. Can we talk about job description, because I am not clear about those, I mean to the end of the audit, I, I rang up to day and asked about whether the, who should be signing them. Because I couldn't find anything under procedures about signing the job descriptions and indeed this persons specification total, I don't think but I mean is that something like you audit it on, its that I am not clear who should award job specifications. Should I have a job specification for everyone in my team, so if I am asked where is it, I can say here it is, and make sure that they are all signed off. I think correct. Well, my understanding is that the individual should have a job description as that's what they are working too, and I thought at one time that it should be the individual who would sign the job description but apparently not, it should be the manager, who signs it to say yes, I confirm that this is the job I want the person to do. I think that this is the actual conversation with Roy, I think. Somebody needs to authorise, like job description, that is what they are to do, and that really needs to be a manager rather than the individual, erm, but there is no reason why the individual can't sign it to say yes this is the job I do. Depends on how you want to work it. But at the very least it should be signed by the manager, and should I full , I've got a full set for everybody in my team or doesn't that matter. Well, this is an issue which is sort of under debate and it's all part of the training thing, 'cause we are going to talk about it at the Training Committee tomorrow. There should be, everybody should be clear what their responsibilities are and a good way of doing that is through a job description,their own, I just wondered about that complete sets only with personnel. . Yes, every as a central record so that you are in a position to say we need another researcher. And for everybody whose joined after, I think it was last January, we make sure that there is a job description, and that they are given one when they join, and we keep on file erm, but I know that there are loads of people who have been here longer than that some people have got them and they are out of date. I thought that there was something at the appraisal though there was supposed to. Oh. Referred to it. You mean, you mean that's not happening. No. People are supposed to fill in the job description on the first page of the appraisal form but don't, in a lot of cases. Mean write it all out again, wonderful.. . Did you use to have to be able to say refer to job descriptions. Yes, it says on the thing that you can attach a job description to the back, but I should say that probably they want it appraisals that you get back, there isn't a job description attached and there's nothing written on the board. You have two options, you either accept that or you reject it, and send back to the people involved saying this is not completed. Or, we drop the requirement to have it. Certainly, we explore this as an avenue towards getting a job specification in place for everybody in the Company. I don't know whether we, have we ever taken that decision? Er, I think it came out at a Trial Audit and we should have a job specification, even if it's a generic job specification for every member of staff. Right. Is this under the training as part of the general relevance to personnel issue. We haven't actually mentioned it, one of the things have to fulfil the training requirement there. We are doing that tomorrow. We are doing that tomorrow. Whose on the committee? Janine, me, John, erm. Ian . Yeah, Lyn, Sarah. I hope she is yes . Linda's training to be a . Sorry. Lyn's in charge of training . Could Richard join that Committee? Would love to have him. No, he's got some very strong views on the issues to do with computer literacy training and requirements and possibly a way of managing that together with all the other things . So that Committee is not determining what training people should have in the companies. It is only looking at capturing the record of what training people have. The resource necessary to manage it. To manage . Don't slip it's little phrase, what's that little phrase,, that the resolves necessary to manage it. To manage the collection of the data. To know whose had what training and whose due to have training. I didn't know about that last bit. You don't, that's why I asked whether Richard could join your committee so that he could voice to you the things he tried to explain to me which I think are What we are trying to do is ensure that our training records meet the requirements of B S 5750. That's what we are trying to do in that sub-committee which will meet for once perhaps and maybe twice. Not a standing committee of any kind. No, but you will have to consider But there is Company Standing Training Committee, which comprises people from divisions which looks at those issues, run by Jenny . I'm still thinking about B S 5750 where we have to make sure that not only we know what training we have given people, that we also continue to give them, future appropriate training so that they can do their jobs, and so compliance by B S 5750 is not just trapping history it is also making sensible plans about the present and the future. But, we believe that that is made in er, Performance evaluation. Performance evaluation, yes. Again, currently there is no way, official way, of saying what plan has been made and whether the plan was met and then logging it into whatever system that you guys are going to dream up for recording what training you have given. As once you have dealt with history, you have to put in place something that keeps it up to date, without too much labour and without erm, a major hole there where things fall into the middle cover and come out. If you are talking of a system which will marry the time sheets with the performance appraisal, this is not a small thing and I bet you we don't have it in place by the end of April. If that's what you are talking about. These two things indepen , exist independently of one another, if they are to be checked one against the other, that is a major task which we better start attacking now if that is what required. Make absolutely independent of one another the record of what has happened and the record of what is required are never married. Except as, when the two individuals get together again and they may choose to marry. Exactly, we may make it the performance evaluation and the documentation attached to it that provides you your training record. You could do that and it would be easy to do it that way then to do it with time sheets. The manager and the members of staff sit down and they agree over the last twelve months which of these bits of training have you had either on the job or as forward training they are ticked off, what do you need over the next six months, let's make a programme. Sorry, we shouldn't have the committee meeting now, Richard I know has some got some interesting ideas. He's very welcome, is it two O'clock? Two O'clock in here. Lovely. So which brings along now to our final and most important general item which is reconsideration of proposals .. The last item. So if we take five minutes. Whichever Is anybody else going to want any sandwiches or sausage rolls, as if not we will give them to people outside. . Is that possible? Simon has drafted and circulated a very clear guide of his proposals, Jenny has prepared and Elizabeth can circulate three redrafts of the proposals for discussion, and Rita and Stella are not quite sure where you got to in terms of redrafting your procedures. I have done mine, erm, I will send one of these round, but the majority of them I feel are so very small that I don't feel that we need to discuss filling in the because I know the intention was that we sent the document well in advance of what's being done otherwise we are just going to get bogged down in er, this meeting in terms of all of the decisions. However, having been off last week, I haven't been able to do that, but I have made all the amendments and I was only going to talk us through those that needed everybody to know about them. Rita. I have made all the amendments that I wished to make to the procedures and I have done it in pencil with a copy to circulate. There are a couple of the procedures now that in the light of this morning's discussion that I think I can certainly circulate what are done, but they won't in, by any means now be final, and I also received this morning from Richard some discussions. Likewise. And I just I, I, I just came into the meeting this morning just half and hour before this meeting I saw them there, but I really don't know what the implications are of them there. Similarly, similarly I have prepared all this but just shortly before the meeting I have had a whole wodge of suggestion forms going back to November which I have obviously not taken into account yet.. Okay. Look we have got another meeting And we call it a day on these things. We've got another meeting in place for this day week haven't we? Monday this week. Would it be sensible for us to agree that on Monday of next week, we finalise, authorise and reissue procedures, that we discuss whatever Simon's put to us now, and give feed back so that you can actually take the final documents next week and that Rita and Stella you take I haven't taken into account the suggestion forms that I had this morning and some quiffs that I haven't had. Until I Okay, we can agree what I have said so far but then I'm going to have to look at other things once I've made further changes. Yep. So is it worth doing that now or is it worth waiting until I have taken account of both amendments again. Er, I am prepared to, that you make the decision on that. I know what the three quiffs are They are all to do with the erm, to the . It might make our meeting next week easier if we have at least got part way through your the suggestions aren't . I don't know . It is not, I don't think it is worthwhile discussing anything if you think that what you are going to discuss may not be what you then do. Have you actually been through this process at all in one of these meetings. May I suggest to you at least it makes sense to start to see what problems you are going to come up against To see how we actually operate. Not necessarily using time which are a lot more something where they're completed. Well I think Simon for doing it is a really excellent way of doing it, it states the source of items, suggestions or quiffs, and makes a proposal erm, which we can debate agreed, and then it's for clear instructions to what needs to be changed on the procedure. Seems to be a very straightforward and sensible way of dealing with it. Whereas I haven't yet seen Jenny's procedures. They are just procedures. She has redlined and strike out. Yes, yes. I didn't feel it was sensible to er, get Monica going through that too many stages, it would seem to me it would better to agree the changes and then we'd all agreed what the changes are going to be get Monica to do it, rather than go through lots of drafts, drafts with Monica. Well, can I suggest that we look at Simon's document and go through it and respond that we take the three proposals that Jenny has tabled, review and agree or decide to adjust and ask Stella and Rita to prepare for the next meeting documents then as assignments? Except that you've got the procedure where I could do it on each of these. No for each procedure. To create trivia is there any point? Well that's what I feel two words does anyone want to plough through them? I need, at the moment in terms of corrective action on quiffs, I am sending quiffs out to procedure owners, and I need to know whether suggestive procedure changes or not, and it's better for me if it is out in that order then I can go through and mark the quiffs off as being erm the changes or not. And it's you that needs to know that procedures owners don't get that from the auditors? No. Me, because I keep copies of all the original works. . We will deal with Simon's agenda. Simon but amendment C. Hang on lets get, in terms of Stella,has an awful lot of relatively small trivial changes which she will put through and none of us are going to disagree with. Is that right? You're being very autocratic. Sorry I am just trying. No I don't think that's, sorry, I think it is perfectly possible for Stella to make this assumption to get them changed and to come with the revised version which says, which is apparently what Jenny has done here, this looks to me, in a not unreasonable way, it looks, she is saying something is there, this must be an example of what Stella means, data can be stored in three different ways where clearly previously that said four different ways. So once crossed out that is perfectly reasonable, but I don't think you should just say somebody is delegated to change the procedure and it happens. We must do a formal vote as it were. Can I make a suggestion to you, that I think that if you go through these you will come to the conclusion that there are two ways for doing this and one is that for example the majority of the ones that Stella's got where she feels she can make the decision it is only going to affect her you come in with it already done, redlined new where you think there is going to be some discussion, you go through, you put together in the same way as Simon has done reasoning around it. Well I have done it this way even for trivial things, because I understood that the committee had to approve the changes and if as I said it seem to me erm, wasteful to get er, Monica to make the changes when they might not be accepted. I think if we go through and have a look at these other ones that Jenny has done and you make a decision at that point as to whether. Okay. How to do it. I'll get with Jim . When we do it, what do we do? We're not proposing that N two will look like this, are we? Well, that is an issue we can debate. That is what has been recommended so far. Is it? Yes. So that when you re-issue a procedure you, it's clear . You highlighted you strike out . And is that clear, is that . something which is no longer in the procedure you'd leave it in crossed out. Yes, so people know what has changed. You don't have to re-read the whole of the procedure Yes, it makes sense. in order to see what What happens when N three goes wrong? That'll be in the new, in the red line and you go on the other stuff . That'll go, 'cos you should have looked at them in between. Of course you should have read them in between, so you're now up to date . Right, okay. Yeah, it does work. It does work. So, we're gonna use red lining to strike out for re- issues, to highlight the things that are different. Good. Proce , changing procedures. I don't think it does. Well, it used to. No, I don't think it does. Can I suggest as, as we, we start the document, that we have a copy of the procedure we're discussing open, because I think most of us in debate and discussion proper if we made our own procedures, things that we hear about. I certainly know erm, reading quotes and audits and things and even just reading the procedures myself I've made notes against certain things that . So, we should take on board when we look at Simon's suggestions for Q P one, not only at things he's but any other note that anyone else has got appropriate to that procedure. Is it possible, this is quite a bit of work we're just about to enter into, which we may have to repeat. Is it possible that erm, this doc , this wad of stuff that you've had Yeah. if any of them relate to a procedure we take it at the same time so that we don't have to do it again, or not? Is it easy to tell when you get the suggestion form what it's relating to? Yes. So try to take on board. So we can take all the points and we can then here what, what Richard's got to say, Simon can form a view and Yeah. Yeah. Yes, we can or if it was . Can .. Well, is it, is it only T G I division that's delayed? Yes. Has Rosalyn gone? She's just gone to photocopy Simon's document. She's coming back. Oh. Well, it's because Richard's is the divisional quality manager . They aren't as efficient, they are not as other people. That is the answer. Pardon? And, I'd say it if they were here. The is they haven't got round to doing it. about this meeting and realise. No, the issue has been raised why, if suggestions are dated November, they're only now coming up? Stella? Erm, and it turns out they're all from T G I and it is because we got Richard as manager. It's not the sort of thing you should be doi , well, it could be the sort of thing, but he's not the right person to do it, is he? But now it's there,. Why not?. He, so he thinks I hope nothing went on the tape then. And there's a very good reason why he is. says a lot though. He is very good, because he is most likely to drive . Simon, are you That's why you would want to. No, John? delegated the thing to. We should get Pam to collect. Get collecting As far as I'm concerned I think Sarah has put in a lot of objections and all to do with and I don't know whether there is any answer at all, I've just got two in my bunch . I've haven't got any. I've got a couple. Yes, I got erm, six or seven Well do we have a once, is it once a month. It does say that they are collected on a monthly basis, so you could say that okay they are. They are alright virtually. November you can't. November you couldn't no. Any you've got some November ones have you? Right. Shall we start with Q P one? Simon would you like to lead us through on your document? Right erm, I had Who wants a coffee? I'll drink one if it's spare, I thought under . As I said I had one quiff from Jane that was erm because somebody hadn't filled in the date by which it was agreed that the Client should get a reply and suggestion was that the procedure should be changed should be non compliance, erm and then the rest of this is based on a suggestion from Rita, and I have several here now, erm . at least three of the suggestion forms are about erm enquiries, and Is that T G I, is that T G I or our enquiries or Sarah says that point eight in access the Sales Manager remains in contact with the client until a final decision is reached, that's the difference there. Most of the Research are here. Well, the Sales Manager surely is. Researcher. Research staff includes the Sales Manager. I think so. I don't think we need to say that do you? No, otherwise we just get We need to tell You need to tell Sarah The researcher Right point ten. Comment is that access researchers take out a job number via their own job numbering system and don't use accounts. Ah We just take out from accounts, just take such a job number. So can we say that point nine and ten does not apply to access? But then do we. No. Why don't we take out from access, so takes out a job number, sorry from accounts and just say take out a job number. Yes that would also deal with Rita's answer Just take those two words out and it's fine. Yes. Because we want, I think we want the job number is a part of our process, and part of access process as well. Okay? I've got to keep note of what I'm doing here. Fortunately you are not re-numbering any of the points Right, so those were Sarah's points. Right. Joanne one point twelve can this be changed to read if a client does not respond within one month the enquiry is considered closed, a copy of the enquiry form is filed in the divisional enquiry file, the client master job file is applicable. This only applies to teaching so surely we should change it to whatever they want basically. Response from client which records within the divisional enquiry record. Yes, super. Well if this only applies to T G I. Then we may as well do it. Now points eleven and twelve are just T G I so we'll just plonk in what . It sounds like Jenny has tried to draft something there which applies to everyone. No, but haven't they had to call their client files, client master job files and if you get an enquiry from an existing client they will probably want to put that enquiry back in that folder. Okay? Well let her have what she wants. Absolutely. Right so I have accepted From Ian I don't understand this applicant Yellow plastic wallets. Are we still on this one Si Yes, Yellow plastic wallets including the enquiry form do not come in master job files but are supplied separately. The wallets contain all the documents whilst the enquiry proceeds i.e. blah blah blah, which are then transferred to a master file Ah, are you suggesting that, that you have a system of requesting a yellow plastic wallet from, sorry this is not a suggestion to do with the procedures anyway. It's a suggestion for Marie that she has a set of yellow whatsits and when you get one you get them all. Isn't it, doesn't that what he means? The problems is that you don't know what documents you need for your enquiry. I could do about six different costing forms, so it's not like you could have a yellow wallet, because, presumably he's saying we want a yellow wallet with enquiry form, a costing form, and that is as far as you could have it anyway. But if the enquiry doesn't come to anything you've not got a master job file. No. I think we've got enough difficulty getting out a master job file. Well exactly. In order, size Because you don't get require a constant set of documents. No. There's only one constant document out Alright so those were the three new ones. Do you want to add a new one? Er Yes this is Rita's suggestion which is attached erm, suggesting one point ten as worded there is added simply to say if the job isn't commissioned a contents enquiry form is filed by the researcher with related documents. I'm not saying how that is organised. It's not commissioned so it means that you add this to ten.. Or after ten. It becomes ten. And what happens to ten. Ten becomes eleven. Right. Can I make a suggestion rather than re-numbering all those, its going to be quite a long job, is that from what I can see at the moment there is no reason why that can't be added on as a last sentence to nine anyway, cause nine says you records the outcome of the enquiry,. Yes, it could be the first sentence of ten. It could be the first sentence . I have two points to make by suggestion:-one is that I think that the final of these related documents should be discretionary I don't see why you should have to keep the file. If you have lodged the proposals on her, you've got your divisional enquiry and you've got a load of bumf that came with it, it's never going to come up again. We should be able to hoover that up . That's what Simon is doing, my original suggestion was to put into archives, but Simon. I agree what Rita asked for which was that it should all be archived in a central divisional higher, and I am taking it that they I think that the way we generally go about it that when we don't get an enquiry erm, or when we don't get a commission we keep a copy of it with the documents for a reasonable period of time. Yep. discretion . Only one year, it does if you only keep it in as only point nine. Exactly. That's divisional enquiry records, that's just the enquiry form.. I'm just thinking you have written proposing you've got the file in front of the client, the job is dead and gone and never going to come back, do you have to file that lot away somewhere? Er, we said something about for a, we don't want to set a time period on it do we? No. No, I agree with your John I mean it should be at the researcher's discretion to dump it if necessary. What can't can't, do we really need this because it doesn't say you have to throw it away after a year. Are we taking about the form on the related documents We are taking about the related documents now, basic form has to be finalised. Well as it stands the related documents you have the option of keeping them or not. Mmm. We as a division, we pick them, and we file them in our filing cabinets . Can I make a suggestion then that on this we change the suggested If you just put down that the enquiry form is farmed by the researchers full stop, and leave any related documents entirely up to the discretion of each and file under nine you see. But that's in the central record John? Yes, and it stays there unless you, it's get commissioned is that right? No it It stays there anyhow. Rita wanted to cover the filing of the stuff What happens to the documents of the jobs that we don't get? Where quite often you would want to keep the stuff and quite often you wouldn't. Well you need to be . For Margaret to type You'd keep them anyway. Your division keeps them anyway. But seems to me that's silly is that we didn't keep with that correspondence a copy of the enquiry form, which, the original is gone to the central record. Well I think that most of us feel that it's absolutely up to you, the individuals whether they keep any of this or not. There would be a few instances where a client may come back a year later and say erm, or not nearly six months later, that thing I told you was not in fact now going to be on. We find it's also useful back information, because they will be able to act on one client and has applications for proposal we are writing for another client later on so we can use as references refer to this information. That's what we are doing. Er. I think they will refer to it as no change. No change. To the procedure at all. I'm happy for not to have a change. But is it harming anyone to leave it as it is? Of course it isn't. No? As long as you do this. Anything you do over and above that is up to you.. Likewise when you think I don't really agree with that. I thought we'd just agreed? You're talking about the next. No the first, the job is not commissioned, that I copies the enquiry . You can do that. Happily carrying on doing that it's not going to be every enquiry has to do that. So they do have to put it in the individual enquiry? Yup. Could I just top and tail that by saying proposals formal proposals, are meant to be sent to the information office writes very few found therefore we have no record in the limelight. that's why the archive Yes you could see it would be much more important to you. But what we can't, it's absolutely but if you write it in all the other divisions have got to do it as well. I just thought that something like that it would be very good practice but if you have a related documents to have a record of the enquiry with it would make sense of the enquiry, even if our situation was different to the other divisions. Where do we say by the proposal. Somewhere else, I don't quite know where. I think it is. Unclear four point seven copy of any of our proposals sent to . Right, no sorry I just wondered is we want, are we happy with the decision we've just made, or do we want. You could say something here at the top of Rita's point that. Absolutely not we do not want the. I should say that if there is no bound copy of the proposal. . It doesn't stop the S G doing what they're doing and we are happy about what we're doing and are happy about what they're doing. What's the difference between except for the paper. No How do you decide whether to bind it or not? Your client's going to be very suitably impressed. We often ask the client would you like this bound? and they say oh, in our case, they normally say a letter will be fine. The net result of all of this is that we are deleting two words from point ten the rest of the procedure stands. No, erm well as written by. Yes, Yes with Jenny comments. master job file. Is that your foot? Point ten. And now a point we have now done that, we have now done one, right that is now going to be dealt with by Simon and introduced by Monica are they going to be dated the day she produces them or what are going to be dated? Yes, one, one thing has occurred to me about this in trying to deal with forms, it seems to me that trying to put a date on a day on it, is absolutely hopeless. You can't put date on erm, two weeks later or three weeks later it gets out can we just stick with a month You can stick with months, erm, you have got several choices where you have got a version number here, you don't need any date on at all if you don't want any date it's just there for your information, it you are putting a date on months are fine until you start to issue two or three in one month which I would hope is unlikely erm Super this are we going to say into January or are we going to say into February? I think . January, January.. Well it depends how many how many we can get together to issue at once, but I would like to have . We must have a target . Can, can I make a suggestion to you on this point and that is that rather than worrying about the date of the document itself which makes sense just to put January or something like that, what you actually keep a careful record of and this can be with the issue and such like, is the date from which that procedure is required to be worked to, which would be the issue date as opposed to any date that it was typed or agreed or anything like that. So, this may be typed up in January but it will be issued as effective from twenty third February. About the last day of January we could issue it. Right. So that herewith procedures, revised procedures Q P one, Q P seven, Q P thirty-two effective, which will take effect from.. And that . Oh yes, yes. I'll put it, there'll be a distribution list that will go out,advice procedures and I'll put that across the top saying which procedures have been re-issued . Yeah,effective from when they're issued . What happens . . What happens if you issue one to, you manage to get it to this department today but can't get it to that department 'til tomorrow and . , have we got to have an issue date for every procedure holder then? No, what makes sense is the date on which, what, what a lot of companies do to . Shut up Henry. I'd like to welcome you to er this meeting of UNISON. It's an open meeting mainly to discuss er the campaign around er saving . I have a few erm apologies for absence to er make. One from Joyce , who until recently was a full-time COHSE at er . Quite where the jobs are going and who does what at this stage I'm not sure now we're UNISON. Erm one from Paddy and I have an official letter er apologizing for not being able to be here. He said he's been pressing and pressurizing the Health Authority about the their plans for . The future appears to be shrouded in mystery and uncertainty. I find it difficult to conceive how an international hospital with a high with a highly regarded professional staff can be allowed to slip into terminal decline. It is an indictment on the present government's approach to the N H S. Incidentally, I can't be with you because I'm trying to ensure that in the next general election Labour will win more seats. Only with a Labour government can we ensure the N H S will be safe and secure . That's erm that's his opinion. Erm and also from er Alan MP from he er thanked us for inviting er him here today but he says,unfortunately I already have a previous engagement in London, and so will be unable to join you on this occasion. Please accept my apologies and best wishes, and rest assured of my ongoing support. Yours sincerely, Alan MP . Er we are hoping that erm Graham who's the MP er will be attending and speaking er Unless that's him on the phone at the moment. Erm other than that I'd just like to introduce the other speakers. I'm, my name's Steve and I chair the Save Campaign. Erm on my left here is John who's er from the District T U C. On my right is Jeff who is a founding member of the Save Campaign and an ex-patient of . And on the far end is Ed who's a full time UNIS UNISON officer. So could I without further ado introduce John . Erm The Trac Trade Union Council in Mansfield basically supports for two reasons. One, that many trade unionists work at and there's a threat to their jobs and a threat to their future careers. Too many trade unionists will at some stage or other become patients of . And it seems strange in an area where we just lost General Hospital and everything has moved to , that , which is a nationally renowned hospital. Let's get that bit right nationally renowned. Is under threat. And I also noticed this week that nine specialist hospitals in London are now also under threat. This is from a government whose leader, John Major, said fifteen months ago, that the N H S is safe in his hands. Mind you he also said that David Mellor, Norman Lamont and Michael Mates had nothing to worry about with their jobs. Er we know where they went. Er like everything else that John Major says, it seems to be very inaccurate, to put it politely. Lies is perhaps more accurate. The National Health Service was founded forty five years ago. For forty five years, we're being told continually that it is the envy of the world. Everybody would like to have a National Health Service, wherever you go in the world. And we seem to be at the moment watching the dismantling and the decline of the National Health Service. It concerns me, in fact I was, I've had a theory for a couple of years now, that what the Tories wish us all to do is to go on to the American system of medical insurance. Private health care. That is why specialist units have to be shut down. Why pay for good health care if you can get the best on the N H S? That is I think partly the thinking behind this government, that they wish to see us all pay health insurance. Take private, use private hospitals. Interestingly enough I also heard recently that takes patients from a private hospital, the , because they can give far better treatment than the private sector. It's kind of worrying. To tell what the Tories are doing to the N H S, I mean I don't think it's a case of us making them aware of what's happening. They know what they're doing to the N H S. I, come on I mean, if El Presidente Michael Heseltine, has to go all the way to Venice to have a heart attack. Because he's very much aware of what the Tories are doing to the Health Service same as the rest of the cabinet. And he has to go abroad before he dare have a heart attack. Most probably wouldn't be able to find a hospital open. You never know these days. Er so I mean this to us is a very important campaign. And I know there are speakers coming on that know far more about the N H S than I do, so I'm not gonna go on too long. Er because I mean we're just here to show support and to provide continuing support for this campaign. But it does concern me very much, not just the loss of jobs but it's the loss of services in this area. And this is an area now which faces very high unemployment, with the Tory policy on pit closures. What that basically means, wherever that happens anywhere else in the country, you go to South Wales, you go to West Lothian, places like that I've been up to West Lothian, all services are reduced when your main industry's removed from an area. We do have an asset in , and I think it is worth us fighting to preserve that hospital, and not to watch it go into decline. But it's also about a bit more, it's about defending the National Health Service. Something which is very much under attack. We can see it daily, monthly. I don't quite understand how the government think they'll keep getting away with this. Erm I certainly know it's not a case of debates in Parliament. Or letters to John Major. I've a sneaking suspicion he bins any letter that criticizes his government, before he even reads it. It is all about people getting out. And about them fighting and making their voices heard. And I hope over the next few months that the people that's present today and other people, get more involved in the campaign. Show them some support. They keep battling away, the staff and the, the former patients at the hospital. And the unions, more directly involved in it. And as I say I'm not really , that is basically all I wanted to say. Must be one of the shortest speech I've ever done. Thanks. Thank you. John, without further delay I'll introduce Jeff , who is a founding member of the campaign and an ex-patient. Jeff. Well it er to be here and thank you for coming to the meeting. Er as I said on, on Thursday night, that it saddens me about , that I'm also an ex-patient of . And also I'm going in on the fourteenth of July, er in to have my knee washed out on the fourteenth of July. And it's been on my heart for a long time to save . Not just , but the other hospitals around my country, that are being threatened. And our Health Service is being threatened. And I reach out personally from the patients' and the public's point of view, to the people out there, that sit in their ivory towers in the homes, and say, they cannot do this to our hospitals. And all I say in response is, please get up, write on petitions, send them in to M Ps, send them in to the unions. Fill them in to save your hospitals, not just the unions or the M Ps, Labour, Conservative, Liberal whoever they are, it's your hospitals, it's their hospitals they're trying to close. It's one of the marvellous hospitals in the world. And we just reach out to you please to, to try to speak out to your friends. Er we will get on to the er the press and people, to really get out to the people, to save our, it's no good saying, in nine months' time, why wasn't there something done, for our hospitals? The time for , the time for our Health Service, the time for the rest of the hospitals in this country is now. It's today. Don't put off tomorrow, what can be done today, for your hospital, for . And I'd like you to just to reach out and the MPs and people just to keep fighting. Because what they're doing now as you know, they can do closing, they can do these now. We are having to fight hard, to save our hospitals. So we need these people have ammi ammunition, to fight for us,. I will still carry on and I'd like to see, on this T-shirt here, at the end of the day, we have saved . Thank you very much Jeff. I'd just like to welcome Graham who's come in. Erm and very quickly move on to Ed who's the UNISON full time . Thanks very much Steve. Erm I think before I start, it's very very important, as has been pointed out by the previous two speakers, that we actually make a practical response to the closure of Hospital. We all do our bit to ensure that the general public and also members of the Health Authority, are fully aware of our feelings in connection with the closure of, what is not just a regional speciality, but what is a nationally and internationally renowned, orthopaedic hospital. I also think it's quite er symbolic that we're commemorating both the birth of the new public service union, UNISON, for the first of July, and also on Monday the forty fifth anniversary of the N H S. According to my understanding of, of Labour history, it was er during the war years, at one of the Labour Party conferences, that a NUPE resolution supported by COHSE, actually er brought about some of the, the, the many things that were written within the Beveridge report, and committed the Labour Party to the foundation of the National Health Service that would be free at the points of need for every member of the community. So I think, from the trade union movement's point of view, we can feel especially proud of the fact that on Monday we'll be celebrating the forty fifth anniversary of the Health Service, and all the advantages that that's brought to members of our communities and members of our, of our families. I think it's also very relevant that we look at the real threats that are facing the N H S. Within this locality we look at the imminent or fairly imminent closure of, of, of . John earlier spoke about the gradual Americanization of our National Health Service. The, the, the moves towards a form of credit card care, where ambulance workers will be asking you the, the number of your credit card before erm treatment will be given in hospital. Because that's literally the state of affairs in America. And one of my experiences since the N H S reforms has been working in hospitals and hopefully defending our members' interests. I mean I think maybe some of our shop stewards have a different opinion about er my involvement but that's what, what I aim to do. And one situation I came across as a consequence of the N H S reforms, was nurses on a maternity ward undergoing a work study. Which literally timed every single activity they undertook. The purpose of that exercise was to bring about a specification for maternity services. To build times that nurses spent working with patients, into a specification and to, basically to form contracts based upon that time. Now I think that approach to health care is fundamentally wrong, because you measure the needs of a patient in one moment and then suggest that the needs of that, that the needs of that patient will continue to be the same in subsequent weeks or subsequent months. So you actually build a time value into the contribution of nursing. You actually do exactly the same thing as you would do to a joiner in a, in, in, in, in a fitting shop, to say, This task c c c can take this length of erm time. So that's just one example of how commercialization is seeping into the N H S. Our nurses are, are un are, are, are being undermined in terms of the contributions that they, that they, that they can make. And it's also important that we look back over the last ten years to how the N H S has been fundamentally changed as a consequence of Tory government policy towards it. In the early nineteen eighties the government undertook a review by an expert, Sir Roy Griffiths. An expert in running supermarkets as chairman of Sainsburys. And obviously an expert in business. But clearly someone with without a background in health services, or indeed in the management of health services. What that review achieved was the compartmentalization of the Health Service, the breaking up of health authorities, from health authority into units, and the heading up of those particular units by, by general managers. Now my opinion is, is that was the first stage of the government's master plan to create a health service that would be ripe for privatization. Back in nineteen eighty eight the government faced a massive crash cash crisis in N H S funding, and er many people within the trade union movement took part in a massive rally in London to call on the government to review its policy towards the, the Health Service. Many of us at that time welcomed the fact that the government was taking stock of public opinion, and was t making the effort to review the, the, the N H S. But unfortunately what that review meant was that what the review brought about was a near privatization of the Health Service through the government's N H S White Paper and subsequently the N H S and Community Care Act. The privileges of that Act went to the very heart of the N H S. In general because it introduced the concept of competition between the providers of the, the providers of health care in the so-called internal market. In simple terms health authorities have been turned into the buyers of health care, and, rather than the providers of health care. And that is very very significant. And I'll go on to talk about how that is significant in the context of, of . In this process they're able to purchase services, health authorities are able to purchase services from whoever they see fit, and basically from wherever they th they want to. In we saw the Health Authority choosing not to purchase services directly from the N H S for their but purchasing from a voluntary stroke private, privately motivated organization. And again there is no guarantee that any N H S trust will receive contracts from district health authorities in the future. Therefore the awarding of contracts affects completely the services of otherwise model erm hospitals and services. And in a similar fashion I think it's also important that we look the, the, move towards G P fundholding. Where G Ps are at liberty to refer their patients wherever they want to refer those patients. Yeah? So it won't necessarily be that patients from er a G P surgery or a G P practice will be referred directly to the local hospital. If G Ps are fundholders they have constraints upon their finance. And if you, you go and see a G P at the end of the financial year or at the wrong part of the financial year, then you may be referred to somewhere strictly because that's all the G P can, can afford to send you. So I think the scenario within, within the Health Service is basically that units, rather than working together, working in with each other, are actually competing to achieve contracts to, to, to secure work. In the context of , we'll be witnessing a change er we'll be witnessing without a change on the part of the, the Health Authority, an eventual rundown of that hospital and a closure as a consequence of the internal market. Er firstly, a third of 's work is being transferred to Medical Centre, a third of its spinal services. And I think it's very important that we look at what the impact of that transfer will have upon the hospital. The remaining hospital will lose a third of its activity, will therefore lose a third of its income. But at the very same time, it'll retain many of the overheads that it's currently got, the overheads of management, some staffing overheads, the overheads for maintaining the estate of the, of, of, of the hospital. What this will do is present at a disadvantage when it comes to competing with other units to secure the contracts that it ultimately undertakes at the minute. The internal market makes no reference to the quality of care, to the ability of a particular unit to deliver care. It's simply to do with pounds, shillings and pence. And while many people can look towards the advantages of a spinal unit at , Medical Centre, people are failing to look at the disadvantages that that will cause for the provision of orthopaedic services in, in, in, in . because of the government reforms, is unlikely to survive because it will carry into competition a third additional overheads. Elsewhere will seem to be er will seem to be a little bit cheaper to the purchasing authorities. To deal with the future of , the Health Authority com commissioned what's called the York Report. A very elusive document er for many of the trade unionists who were involved in negotiations with the management at the current time. Despite two written letters to er the District General Manager, that report hasn't been forthcoming. It contains vital information as to the ability of to survive. Yet there's a shroud of secrecy surrounding that report. It's likely that this report will set out how should close, and all the reasons why it should close. Erm as I've said strictly because it will be to it will be uncompetitive within the,with with within the internal market. And I think if we look at the effects of the internal market in this situation, what the internal market will achieve is er a situation where this community and all the neighbouring communities that use will be Excuse me. Sorry to butt in but if anybody's got a car parked at the back here, the warden's taken all the . traffic warden is taking all the numbers. W=well actually he's jus he's just getting bored with me. That's why he said that. Right, right. I'll er I'll erm I, I'll crack on crack on . I think in a similar fashion in, in a similar fashion, we're seeing other areas of the country that are affected by, by the ravages of the internal market. Over recent months the Tomlinson Report recommended the closure of many of the, the, the country's finest teaching hospitals with wi with within London. Erm basically to say that elsewhere can provide services on a cheaper basis than those hospitals erm wi with within London. I think the other point I would want to make is that it's quite significant that in the week that we celebrate the forty fifth anniversary of the, the N H S, for the first time ever erm waiting lists within this country will have, will exceed one million. So all the rhetoric that we've had from this government about better performance N H S, more people being seen by the N H S, that must be read against the fact that over a million people are, or a million patients, are er waiting on N H S waiting lists. The other thing that we need to say is that far from creating efficiencies within the N H S, the bureaucracy attached to the changes when people are responsible for managing contracts, dealing with contracts, dealing with specifications for contracts. That within itself has cost one point two million pounds. And I think it's no wonder that for example within Trent region, over the, the last three years since the N H S Act came into force, that there has been a quadrupling of accountants or er administrators within the Health Service and a corresponding reduction within the numbers of nursing staff, the numbers of directly employed ancillary staff within with within the N H S. Again the internal market hasn't worked and isn't working. One other example over the last week just plucking, plucked out of the air, a hundred thousand pounds has been taken away from Hospital er College Hospital in London's budget for the treatment of AIDS patients. They will over the next few months be endeavouring to sack twenty five UNISON members, skilled nurses who work within that particular speciality. Think of the logic attached to that. At a time when the incidence of AIDS has risen to er approximately to two thousand four hundred a year, compared with one thousand six hundred a year in i i i in the previous twelve months. This government is, is, is seeking to reduce the budget of one the most necessary services within the country. I think another important thing for us to recognize is that many of the people within the N H S, the people directly responsible for the care, remain some of the lowest people in the country, the least rewarded people in the country. Now while that says a great deal about what the government thinks about of them and their expertise, it also says a great deal about how well regarded this National Health Service of ours is in the minds of this particular government. And again one of the great concerns that we have with the development of N H S Trusts, is those Trust Boards are able to determine their own policies in respect to staffing, to set their own pay scales for staff, also they are able to do their business to a large extent behind closed doors. Legally they are only required to have one public or open meeting at which the Community Health Council is invited to attend. Again my concern about that is that Trusts bring with them a shroud of secrecy, able to do business behind closed doors. And much of the concerns that we've been able to express about the Health Service has been as a direct consequence of us having information as to for example the numbers of bed closures, as for example the numbers of people on waiting lists. Trust status brings with it a cloud of secrecy. We'll be limited in our ability to find out what these Trusts are doing with public money, what they're doing er er in su su what they're doing er i i i in support of, support of patients. Another area that is of concern to us is the development of what's called Patient Focused Hospitals. Trusts within this locality, er are, a little bit further afield than, than , are actually looking a towards Patient Focused Hospitals, where in actual fact everything, every, every treatment a patient is dealt with on the ward, rather than have a skilled nurse undertaking part of the treatment, there will be multi-skilling so er the member of staff will be multi-skilled to perform almost every single aspect of erm care directly on a ward. Again an attempt to undermine the skills and expertise that currently exist within the Health Service. Again I, I think it's important th that I, I wind up before I start rambling. But maybe you think of course I started rambling when I started off but er thank you very much John. Erm. As I said from the start it's vitally important that we do everything we can to defend Hospital. It's vitally important that we mark the forty fifth anniversary of the N H S. Labour's greatest ever achievement, without fear of any contradiction, the greatest achievement of the Labour movement was the introduction of the N H S which still remains to a large extent, the envy of the world. We must fight to defend it. We must resolve on the forty fifth anniversary to continue in our support. We must all of us write to the Health Authority, to our local M Ps, to the government to defend Orthopaedic Hospital. Thanks very much. Thank you very much Ed. Erm I er move straight over to er er Graham and then open up for any questions or if anybody wants to say anything from the floor. Graham. Right. Thank you very much, and er thanks for inviting me along. I'm sorry I became er a wee bit late. Sorry I nearly got a ticket as well. Nice welcome to . I had to bring my passport with me to er obviously get into coming from but er I've got a letter from Alan as well so er me over the border. But the reason I'm here is just to express solidarity with the campaign that you're continuing. And it's a campaign that's gotta keep, keep on. There's no question about that. Er to let you know that your Labour members of parliament in Nottinghamshire as a whole er are backing the campaign. And that's because doesn't belong to you. No, it don't. Belongs to everybody, and it particularly belongs to everybody in Nottinghamshire. Er whether you're from the south, north, the city or whatever. As far as we're concerned it's our and we want to keep it. And one of the er I think probably everybody in has some relative brother who's er used . Certainly my father not least because of his er mining history. And also my brother as well have used . And you go anywhere, you can go anywhere in the country, people talk about it. They know immediately when you start talking about . They know its record, they know what it does. And I think that's the most valuable thing. It's er what the er marketing people would call grand identification. And that means it's in people's minds, there's something even above what it actually is. It's got an image, it's got an emotional contact and I think we're gonna play that for all it's worth. It's one of the assets that we've got in the campaign. One of the other reasons I'm here is er, again with the blessing of er Jeff , and Alan , and the other MPs is to try and help the campaign along a little bit and hopefully er have friends from er Central Television who I've brought along today. Er who'll get it on the News tonight with a wee bit of luck. And if I may we'll set something up for them and we'll try and get the shirt on the telly and whatever and try and get people to remember. Anybody in the East Midlands that sees that News, remember their hospital is under threat. Did a little bit for the radio this morning in , Radio and Radio , and it's all grist to the mill. Keep the campaign going. Keep talking to people. keep letting people know the threat that is actually occurring. But it's not a new threat. We were talking earlier on about the N H S and the foundation of the N H S. When the National Health Service was founded, don't ever forget, on the second reading of the bill to establish the National Health Service, every single member of the Conservative Party voted against the establishment of the National Health Service. And in my view what they couldn't achieve on that night in Parliament in the nineteen forties is now being achieved by stealth, slicing bits and pieces away as they go along. They want a two tier health service and they're working towards a two tier health services. This for them is just one step along the way. And whether it's nasty shouting arrogant Kenneth Clarke or lovely perfumed Virginia, they're all the same underneath in terms of the way they look at the Health Service. It's alright for some to be able to buy private health care, and then the rest of us can have a diminishing and reducing National Health Service both in Nottinghamshire and throughout the rest of the country. Of course, they'll say well there's no demand. Well try telling the one thousand seven hundred and sixty two people who are currently on the waiting list at that there's no demand for the services that provide. Even the documents that er UNISON have provided to me, which indicate the shortfall in operations last year will indicate that the job isn't even being done with a fully fledged , let alone a reduced service. And slicing away one part of , transferring the spinal unit, just taking out bits and pieces, is designed to weaken the idea that itself can stand on its own. Once you've got rid of some of it, why not take another bit, and then at the end of the day let's close the whole damn thing and save everybody a lot of money. That's the theory that they're working on, and it's not just here. It's not just in , and it's not just in hospitals, it's all the way around. Over the last six weeks or so I'll tell you the places I've been and the people I've seen in the National Health Service. Now dentists. I had a meeting of all the dentists in about five weeks ago. Without exception every single one of them in that room, and I invited every single one from the whole of my constituency, said, we want to stay in the National Health Service. But because they're reducing the fee income for dentists in the National Health Service these dentists, dedicated people, in some pretty tough estates in my patch, were saying, I am being forced to go private. Whenever somebody comes into my surgery I offer them this so-called Denplan. Sign up for private insurance. They don't want to do it and some are even having to leave the N H S as a whole. But they are being forced to do it by fragrant Virginia, who's actually trying to reduce the ability of dentists to perform in the National Health Service as they want to do, and as they always have done. Four weeks ago I met every single G P in my constituency in a meeting. Those G Ps told me, I thought I was listening to my own speeches to be honest, from about a year or two ago. They were saying, oh you know what's happening. I said, no, there's a development of a two tier health service. I said, well welcome to the reality. It's what we were saying in the Labour Party before the nineteen ninety two election. And er I made one or two political points as you can imagine with doctors who are allegedly nonpolitical and don't want to get involved in all this messy er things about Conservative Party and Labour Party and the rest of it. The truth is, politics is coming home even to those so-called professional groups. They're getting hammered too. Yes, there is a two tier G Ps service developing in my city and in the shire. And there's no question about that. There's, they pointed out to me that the two thousand percent increase in prescription charges since this lot came to power, is forcing people to make a decision as to whether they should get a prescription or whether they should not. And there was one of many heartrending stories about a doctor. She went round to this er house and said, why aren't, why aren't you improving, and the person said, I just can't afford the prescription. She went out and bought the prescription for this person because it was so essential. Not every doctor can do that and you certainly do it every week. So all the way round there are attacks taking place. And attacks quite deliberate, not just happening by accident. But quite deliberate, on the different parts of the Health Service. The nurses, two weeks ago I met nurses that I've met three years ago at my surgery about regrading. They still haven't been regraded five years later. Five years from the original appeal in nineteen eighty eight, those nurses still haven't gone all the way through the regrading process and any union officer will tell you that doesn't just occur in City Hospital in this case, but it occurs right across the as well. And now what they're saying is, well we'll buy out those appeals, if you had your appeal running for a few years we'll give you five hundred pound ex gratia payment. Go away and forget it. Well I can tell you if you get your right grade firstly you earn a lot more money. And it s should all be backdated. So it's not a very good deal. Secondly there's some of the nurses who weren't present at the meeting three weeks ago who had been present three years ago. The reason they weren't present? They've retired. The thing had gone on so long they'd actually retired from nursing. And one person had died in the process relating the appeal. I'm very pleased to say that the union er involved had actually pursued the appeal even though the woman had died, and won the appeal posthumously so that the backdated pay could be given to the widower in that case. Erm what a situation we're in when you can't get your appeal through in a reasonable time and it actually results in that sort of nonsense taking place. And finally a group in the National Health Service who I never thought would be on our team, the pharmacists. The classic singlehanded small business, which made Thatcher great. Every last one of them I would imagine that were in that room when I met them er a week ago Friday I would, would probably stake my shirt on it, not that shirt, but this one that most of those people would have voted Conservative in nineteen eighty nine or three whatever eighty seven, ninety three, eighty three. I would have said they would, that they would have done. Every single one of them turned round at that meeting and said, will you go and beat the out of that government for what they're doing to us. Because what they're now doing to them is saying, unless you turnover two thousand prescriptions every month, we're gonna do away with your Professional Allowance. Now. Fine, okay. What, what does that actually what does that do? In a place like mine anybody who knows my patch you, you know old or you know certain parts of or you know certain parts of . They are not gonna produce those amounts of prescriptions per month, therefore they're not gonna get the Professional Allowance, therefore those pharmacies or those chemists are gonna close. And in one particular patch of I worked damned hard over the last three years to get a doctor onto that estate. It's the only estate in my patch without a doctor. I've now got a half-time doctor on there. If the pharmacy goes people are not gonna go to that doctor because there won't be a pharmacy nearby to get a prescription. So that whole effort to raise up that estate in my patch, will flounder because of some arbitrary limit imposed by Virginia Bottomley who obviously know very well from a commanding position in Whitehall. Absolute nonsense. Doctors, G Ps, nurses, pharmacists, dentists, they're all under attack and you're just part of the effort to try and repel that attack, all the way round. So the sort of things that are happening are happening everywhere and community care I think could be probably one of the areas that I could talk about at some length if you wanted to later on. Erm these er very sad cases this week of individuals, frankly no fault of their own, er committing horrendous crimes that we have seen. Erm schizophrenic people being released into the community prematurely, not having the assistance that they needed, committing crimes, innocent victims there. Innocent families having to suffer from that, all for the want of proper supervision and proper care. It spills over, it goes into er the civil service unions that I addressed in Parliament this week. Exactly the same thing's happening with them in terms of privatization, market testing. From examples as wide as er Group Four farcically taking over transportation of prisoners from prison er to court and back, and losing a few on the way. Erm to things such as er the er case of people not having adequate staff in prisons and therefore releasing people. It's almost like community care for the prisons, you want to keep an eye in this one? I had a case this week of a person who was reduced from a Category A, the most serious form of offender in prison, to a Category C. He was a rapist, a violent offender, er racist attack merchant. On to a Category C, given home leave, first thing he does on home leave is go out and kill an Asian man. And in a way er and this is a story I think is gonna develop over the next six months or a year. We're gonna see a lot of this happening cos this talking comes cheap, er crime and the rest of it. We're gonna see a lot of that developing, but anyway that's, that's a digression. But that actually occurred this week and I think we're gonna see more of that. So anyway is the Health Service safe in the Tories' hands? Well for the sake of a few million pounds the Conservatives will slash this area, that area, will say we need to close this unit, that unit. Well in , and there's one or two people here that'll know what I'm talking about, we've had one of our local MPs on a consultancy basis for the Health Clinic, fix up a contract for his own particular company. The District, the er Chairman of the District Health Authority, David , has been involved in this obviously in allocating this contract. And the then Secretary of State for Health, Kenneth Clarke was involved in that his department granted the authorizations. So a million, couple of million pounds has gone in that direction. Of course all three people no doubt innocent parties. All three people are local prominent Tories. All three people went to the High School. And all three people in my opinion are like that. When they get together and they need money, the old school tie, the old party tie comes into play and money can be found for things that they think are profitable for them and their consultancies, and their companies, and their interests. So if we can tighten the screw it's possible to actually get these people in my view to start seeing our interests as well. And I've said this er I've said this in week to the civil service unions, I never did believe in lobbying Parliament. I thought that was all about people feeling they'd had their day in Parliament because there was a Tory majority of a hundred or more. Now, if we can convince enough Tories, often a handful, ten, fifteen, twenty, there is a possibility however faint, that you can change the government's mind. And I think that's where this campaign's got to go next. I think we've got to be serious about it in terms of targeting given individuals, tracking back their history, go back through the bloody files, if there's been anybody been treated. Use everything, everything without shame, to get to those Tory MPs and say, do you know what is happening? Do you know that you, your family, your wife, your grandfather, whoever, wouldn't be able to get this sort of treatment in the hospital they were treated in before. I think we can do that and I think it's important that we do do that. We're fighting a battle against an enemy who has a totally alien philosophy to our to ourselves. They don't even understand the Health Service, they don't want the Health Service. They're flogging bits of land in again in the City of , flogging a piece of land next to the City Hospital for a supermarket. That's the sort of mentality you've got. Where they ask what are your vital signs, they don't mean have you got a pulse or high blood pressure, they mean have you got Access or Visa. They're the vital signs you've got to display before you go and get treated under the new Health Service. This campaign is just in my view really starting to make its mark on the public imagination. I hope that our friends from Central Television and the media, and everybody else working through the East Midlands Region T U C, through UNISON, through the Labour Parties, start to get that campaign really rolling. Let them know you're around and I can say on behalf of the Labour MPs of Nottinghamshire, you'll have our full support. Go to it. Thanks very much. I wasn't actually gonna say anything but I'd better say a little bit. I've just suddenly realized actually that I'm the only health worker Yeah. Could I ask a question please? Certainly. Well, as er having listened to what Graham said against the er the G Ps and the pharmacists which er they totally agreed with what Graham was saying, what we don't see either in the press or on television, a panel of G Ps and pharmacists condemning the National Health Service and the media don't see that. Why isn't these doctors that are condemning it and the pharmacists and so forth, together on a panel of something and expose it on T V or in the press that they condemn it. And we never see the doctors condemning it, we don't see the pharmacists condemning it either. And I mean the media from their point of view is not getting across. And they're the professionals. So I think we ought to see a little bit more of these doctors and a little more of these pharmacists also backing the National Health Service up er which they should . Er is it a question, do you want an answer? Or Well it's jus i it was a comment. Sorry, a comment. Can I just? I mean I think that's a good idea. I think you, the people you know and I said you could apply it to Tory M Ps, God knows if you're gonna get a Tory MP for with their organization, but I'm damn sure you can get G Ps for and you can get pharmacists for or whatever. You can do all the specialities. I'd go, I'd do stars for . You must've had people passing through there, famous people who you can register, get them there, do, do this sort of thing. I mean th er I've done that? Oh I'm sorry. Yeah. Keep that keep that running in that case because you can't do too much with it. You've gotta keep using that sort of imagination to actually keep seizing people's imagination. I mean I didn't see that so no but I keep us briefed so with so we're up to speed on it and keep those little units, that little campaign feeling here, there and everywhere going. Cos that's the only way you're gonna seize the public imagination. If you haven't got the public on your side and there is a lot of emotional support for , if you haven't got the public on your side then the politicians can get away with murder. Could I co c er comment a, a little further then on that . I'm talking about a pharmacist with a G P that set us . Are these people afraid to expose themselves in a panel condemning the National Health Service or just to sit in the background and make any comments? It's that whole thing about they're never gonna come for me. has been for , that has actually been the case, has been the problems in terms of actually getting nurses to actually come out and doctors and pharmacists to actually come out publicly. Erm and quite understandably to be honest, because the fear of their jobs. I worked at as a nurse and there's, actually there's a lot of pressure going on there as will back up . What I would say is there are instances that have been happening around the country in the last year, where both doctors, G Ps, and nurses have actually said, you're not doing that. You're not closing this hospital, you're not closing these wards. And what's actually happened was the College Hospital . What they did was the nurses and the doctors took over the ward. They said, you're not closing us down. We're running this ward. The patients themselves kept the management out, and the rest of it. And that ward stayed open. There are those possibilities, and that is something that we should be arguing for. But in a sense it's not just the people round this table and the committee should be arguing for this, it's actually the people in this room. It's the people, I mean the people in this room know a great deal more people than I do on my own for example. Or a group of us do on our own. And that is where I think we should actually be pushing. We should actually be pushing saying for those Health Ser Service erm workers and also people in the public who are not doing that, not a case of, we don't want you to and this is a case against it, although that's strong. It's actually saying, we're not prepared to let you close down our hospital and our services any more. Can I, can I just erm add a question. Is erm what are they doing? The only thing is what we can do is like everything else. As I said before on Thursday, that the idea is that the people outside there, the public, are the ones that are important. When it comes to an announce the fact that we're gonna have er er council elections,how many people come out and vote for your councillors and put them in? How many voted to put, smack the Conservatives, and don't worry about politics I'm just using it as an example, in the face. They came out and they voted. How many come out and vote for the MPs when it comes to, when it comes to the er elections? How many millions come out? Now what we're saying is, this is your hospitals. This is your Health Service. Here here is a petition. Please sign the petition for your, for your Health Service. Get around. Send your letters. How many people are gonna do this out there? Will the B B C, they will do it. Please tell them to get their petitions, not just get down and get millions, like you go out and vote, to protect your Health Service as and your hospitals. I . Got you, George. Yes. Erm I just want to comment and then erm . I represent I think, along with my colleagues here, the you know the pensioners' movement. And there's nobody needs hospital or health treatment more, more than the pensioners. And yet for, for a long time now whether it comes to dental payment, paying for dentists, opticians, now they're talking about prescription charges and, and that sort of thing for not just myself, not just us, but for children as well. We're being attacked on all sides, quite frankly. And as well as the closing of, of, of er certain hospitals. Er I'm one of those people that took a two year er low pay rise, to put me into the Health Service when my husband was ill. And we had two years with no pay rise. My father was also one of those er people that contributed a penny a week along with about thirty five thousand miners in this area, to pay for . And so is not theirs to give away at all. It's ours even before the National Health Service was brought in. I think one of the problems we face is that the campaign for is coincided with the campaign to save the pits. I think it's suffered from this. You know, because tremendous publicity quite rightly the thing given to the campaign to save the pits. And I'd like to think that you now start to think, not in terms of, in terms of other hospitals, but to get a coordinated campaign throughout the country on this particular issue. Because I mean th there's more teaching hospitals in London going an and right throughout the country. Why cannot we g get the same response on the question of hospital closures er as we did er against pit closures. I'm not saying that you know would successfully we drove back millions of people supporting us that would never support us if you go into one particular matter alone or one particular hospital closure alone. And I think it is so very important that we try to do that. Now the MPs can help in coordinating this. They could play an outstanding role in, in giving the information and coordinating this. Also now that we've got UNISON the one union I think they can help but I do think that's what needs to be done, because they're doing the same with the hospital as, as now doing with the pits even after the closure campaign. And closing them piecemeal, thinking they can get away with one at a time. And I'd like to ask the panel, what possibilities there are of getting a nationwide campaign listing all the hospitals that's under threat? And I think . Listing all and developing this national campaign. Yeah. I'm, I'll go and bring Alan in. To answer that question and that . Health Services . We've actually debated the issue before this week. And the T U C to launch a nationwide campaign probably September October time to tie with the Chancellor's autumn statement, for a mass rally in London for about the time of the autumn statement. We would hope that by doing this we'd actually mobilize the whole country to get down into London and to protest at the House of Commons against the closures in the Health Service. So that's all being looked into Sorry about that. So we haven in September October there will be a massive rally in London to save our Health Service. Thank you. I think basically what I'd like to say today is that I personally agree with what Ida's saying that it is an attack on the Health Service, and it is the greatest achievement that the Labour Party has done in history in my opinion. And I believe that the Labour Party should be at the front to save er our Health Service including the holidays er not the holidays, including the hospitals, including er keeping hospitals within the Health Service. And, and I'm against any Trust status which they tend to, to go because I believe that the beginning of our campaign that because was talking last year about Trust status it did alienate a lot of people against and said, why should we bother fighting for a hospital what would go Trust anyway. This er committee is fighting for inside the National Health Service, and I think we should make that clear. That we're not fighting to save a hospital to go Trust. It is to stay within the Health Service. We need more help than we've got. This committee we started, we, we formed a committee some months ago. Erm and as part of that committee I believe we've not been very successful. Erm we need to get more organized within ourselves, we need more help before we, we actually and er we're talking about petitions on er signa signatures on petitions. We need at least forty thousand signatures before we can even attempt to, to do anything with and get publicity round that. Be because before you can actually present them to Downing Street you need forty thousand signatures at least. We are nowhere near that amount. We need people on the streets collecting signatures, we don't need people to just sign, we need your help in , in , in , in and in areas. And we need a coor coordinating campaign to get those signatures as quickly as possible, so then we can talk about lobbying Parliament, because we can't do it without them. We need a focus point and that, that needs to be it. And for us to go forward that is the first major thing we need to do and I'm appealing today that if people can give us two hours on Saturday morning or a Friday afternoon, we need people, we don't need two people on a street corner cos we've done it and it is it we don't get the effect we want, because most people walk past us. Cos while you're getting one signature, twenty people walks by you. We want ten and fifteen people stood there in the street, you want their T-shirts on because I have never yet had one person say to me, I won't sign it because I think they should shut . People, no-one wants to see Hospital closed. But it's, we've got to get them motivated and I'm asking today, you know, we need more help and if you can spare a few hours a week it would be more than appreciated. And if you can see Jeff after the meeting I'm sure he, he can take your names and coordinate that. Thank you. I'm going to have to ap apologize er to all the speakers on the platform, who've actually got prior commitments er pretty soon after the speeches I'll just let Mick speak and then I'm gonna have to close the meeting. But erm obviously what Gwen said I think we all, we all back up. If we don't get, if we don't, literally don't get the bodies on the street we don't get we're not gonna, win we're gonna lose. Well first of all I'd like to on behalf of the National Union of Mineworkers and offer the full support from the N U M. I was invited to touch on the historical links between and the mining industry of this area. It's given miners a lot of service over the years and eased a lot of the er distress of the at work. Regardless of the pit closure programme ta erm we're in full flight erm at the end of the day we could be looking at a situation with four pits remaining in Nottinghamshire er and to that extent there'll be up to four thousand miners still reliant on the services of , should er remain open. And er th there will be an increase the ra accident rates that are orthopaedic related er inside the remainder of the pits because we're now seeing the drift towards er longer working hours, more time at the coal face. And even before the pit closure programme started with the increased competition that was taking place inside the mines, the increased productivity erm we've seen a steady rise in the number of back accidents, erm you know spinal erm related accidents. So miners in Nottinghamshire still require the services that operated in the past. I'd just like to offer this erm message to Graham back to, to the House of Commons. It weren't so long back that er John Major, when talking about er benefit, was quite surprised by the fact that er disabled erm claimants had rose by, well it had quad quadrupled in inside the Thatcher years. I mean it comes as no surprise to me er because of the lack of Health and Safety provision inside the work places and people that remain in work, erm being subjected to longer working hours er inside the industry. And that's certainly the case inside the mining industry. Erm but er going back to again, erm because er they're analyzing now erm all benefits so they can reduce the . When you know what we should be saying to John Major and employers is that it isn't any surprise that er disablement er has increased over the last thirteen, fourteen years. And er one of the reasons for that is because of the lack of orthopaedic provision being provided and erm th the closure of our oldest part of that. And the claimants will, will carry on rising while they k keep closing hospitals of this nature. So I think we can project the closure of and orthopaedic hospitals of this nature into that debate about er new benefits and why, why we, why the Tories are suddenly surprised by the number of claimants. All I can say is thank you all for coming. Erm please give a bit more of the just support we need, we literally, we do need bodies, we do need people to actually come along. We, we'll meet about once a fortnight er we can actually let people know if er if all you leave names and phone numbers or whatever. the campaign next Friday is it? Next Friday, in? In here at seven o'clock next Friday is our next meeting. And it's not designed to be a public meeting for anybody that come along and gives support and help would be more than welcome. Thank you again for all coming. Thank you. It wouldn't be any bother to me, if you Mm. Wanted me to. Well we'll do that, I see what see says any rate on Monday. But I don't think we should give her too long, cos she's got herself into . Mm . Yes . Yes . Keep putting up, we've had her for about two years haven't we? Yes, she did say last time one of her friends would like the job. Oh god. Oh no, no. She's told them how easy it is. She's told them what to do, birds of a feather. Yeah,. Rose would you consider a man, I've got an idea there might still be a possibility of Mr Well I don't see why not, if he, if he did . Some men are very good . Mm. Some men are very good, we've got a good one at the church hall pub next door, I mean. Mm. Toilets and things there. That's right. Yes, I mean that would be very good . I think . I'll have words with Sharon on Monday and er, oh I can't, yes I can on Monday I'm having my hair cut later, but I can come up about nine o'clock and see if she's here. I bet she won't be. No, I bet. She'll be in the penny farthing then. Well, I will then have to ring her won't I? Mm. So will you all get round to your limerick's please ladies. . Thank you all very much. Thank you. Elsie, oh. Ken, welcome back. Could you introduce er the people, your team, particularly as I think one of them has a different name to the label in front of them. Yes, I'm afraid Mike Kirkham has been delayed in Prague for today, so Nigel Spackman, who's a member of our Committee and is a deferred pensioner is taking his place and Les Taylor is the Secretary of our Maxwell Pension Action Group. And you are Ken Trench? I am Ken Trench, I am the Chairman of the Group. Ken, we've you've given us er er er a document in re response to er the Good Committee and your views and so on. We've got a number of questions we want to ask you, because er though you're pivotal to all of our erm activities in this enquiry, we are also looking to a report which is hopefully going to be influenced the Bill the Government brings forward. So we will er if we may er not ask you to introduce your document we we'd like to get on with the questioning. If at the end you feel there are points we haven't covered and I forget to invite you, would you say you would like to make a concluding statement. Yes, by all means. Very good. Jimmy? Well Ken, obviously everybody was abhorred regarding this national scandal of the the Maxwell er pension fraud that er the Committee who were making enquiries obviously were implementing the fact that we should have a report and Goodey was set up and the recommendations that have been laid down as far as Goodey is concerned in order to strengthen the pension scheme so that these frauds can happen again, now have you read the report? Yeah, I've read I don't think I've read every thousand pages of it, but I've, I've I've done quite a lot of of it yes. Mm, having read the report and possibly being on the end of the complaints from the pensioners in the Maxwell fraud er what was your view regarding the proposals that are being made? Well, we feel that there's it's obviously quite a lot of points that are, are very good in the report, but we really feel that it's concentrated very much on the administration of pension schemes, rather than security and I think that whilst if everything that, everyone of his recommendations had been law, I think it would have made it more difficult for Maxwell, but I don't think it would have made in impossible for Maxwell and I think that what th what we see the problem is, is that in many ways the, the Maxwell problem was brought about by two major, major factors I think. One was the failure of the self- regulatory body I M R O and the second one was really the fact that he was able to change his financial year end from April ninety-one to December ninety-one and during that period he was able to do things with those erm those funds in his accounts and er and really there was, there was no check on that, and I don't see that the that was in er Good would have changed much of that situation at that end. It would have made it more difficult, but the way that Maxwell used to involve himself in bulk transfers, you know and move, move two hundred pensioners from there to there and er no money followed and this sort of thing, I think that er that he could of quite frankly done exactly the same thing and we really feel that the, that the role of the pension regulator and the and the opposing role with I M R O that, that you really if we're not careful, we're going to put in another layer of bureaucracy and have a pension regulator who's got the task of of checking a, a hundred and twenty eight thousand pension funds, when really there's probably out of those a hundred and twenty eight thousand, ninety-nine point five per cent of probably being very well well run and, and quite safe and what, what we can't really see in the report is a is a method of identifying the determined fraudster at a at a very early stage, you know and we're just terribly disappointed that er that Good has just thrown the whole of, of the matter back at I M R O who we feel have proved to tha that I don't think they're up to the task, I think that the that the whole question of er of the power of a self regulatory body which to us works on blowing the whistle, you know the whole the whole effect of a self regulatory body is that it's members that it, it's really like a club isn't it, you know and we're all members of this club and if one of us er is gonna do something wrong, then the rest of us are gonna have to pay for it. Well, in the in the question of I M R O as far as it's erm occupational pension scheme members are concerned, er there's no there's no compensation responsibility and I think that that means that you get no, no whistle blowing and in I mean there's, we've got, I mean one of the points that we, we heard of just last evening was that one of the of the banks involved ended up er in its arrangements with Maxwell of asking for a hundred and sixty per cent of shares for every hundred per cent of loans that it made to Maxwell. Now to me that means that that, that city organisation must have been very doubtful about the whole future of the Maxwell organisation when it was getting to that stage, and if one looks through the, through the Writs, you know which now, now number about the same number of pages as the as the Good Report, you know you will get an er a feeling of what Maxwell was doing and how that was all all being happened and with leaving all of that with I M R O we just don't think it's going to er er we don't think it would have saved the position. Ken? Well I think if I M R O I think if I M R O members had had a compen a compensation responsibility or er then I feel that the members would have would have would have allowed certain things to happen. I mean when one starts to, to scratch the surface, let me just give one example I mean we feel er I M R O fails on on its membership I mean the fact that you had Bishopsgate Investment Management which was the beneficial owner was an organisation in Liechtenstein. Now I M R O asked er we understand for the be the management of that organisation to give accounts for that for the c for the senior company to I M R O prior to its membership about a I think was about eight working days before I M R O approved that membership. We we've asked I M R O if they actually got those accounts and what they learnt from the er from the Liechtenstein company and they've told us they can't, they can't tell us it's er it's private correspondence. Can we actually pause there cos you've done a good bit of digging on that one. Er David Shaw on this very I come back to you Ken erm y you've asked some questions, I've actually seen the I M R O letter and can I say that there are two questions in the I M R O letter to Mr Maxwell and Bishopsgate, which quite categorically asked for accounts and also details of the ownership structure coming out of Liechtenstein. I haven't seen the re final reply that went from er the Maxwell organisation to er I M R O but I did see a draft reply. The draft reply contained one threat to report I M R O to the Securities and Investment Board for excessive enquiries er and for an unreasonable attitude and the other er bit of the reply was effectively a form of covering up presenting full financial information and disclosure to I M R O. Those replies were drafted by people inside the Maxwell organisation and you may want to comment on er the position, although I should stress at this stage that I like you have not seen the final version of any reply and I do not know whether I M R O persisted. What we do know is that I M R O asked for this information in June nineteen eighty-eight and not long afterwards I M R O granted recognition to B I M and other Maxwell Companies, all the more surprising perhaps having raised the questions whether the question must come about, did they continue with their investigation, or did they let the matter drop and perhaps you might to comment in that context. Well I think we can all, I mean I think just the fact that they were asking those questions I think literally days before they gave the approval worries me. Ken, but asking the question is rather good, isn't it? Oh, asking the questions is fine. Cos they were actually on to something important. Yes, but I would have thought that you know I M R O sh should of then I asked, I write and asked them the question, I r really would have expected a reply to come back, yes, we found this and so and so, but we then scraped a little bit further and erm. Can I just ask on that Ken? Yes. Do you not think that almost regardless of the reply and whatever that reply contained, with what we now know with the benefit of hindsight about Liechtenstein, which was actually known by I M R O there's not for the benefit of hindsight that wasn't known at that time, shouldn't I M R O have refused immediately to license any organisation that was controlled out of Liechtenstein in those circumstances? Absolutely, absolutely, I think you know, I I mean I just feel there should be a total ban on anywhere where where you can't get the information that you require, you know. So let's leave it there and you, but you were saying Ken, you've scratched Oh, I think the story goes on from there, because I don't think though and this is a personal opinion and I I'd love the Committee to I don't know tha that er I M R O ever did get accounts out of Liechtenstein because a year later B I M the m the ownership of it was transferred from Liechtenstein back to England but guess who the the, the owner was transfer to a charitable trust, so we've got erm a company that is handling the investment management of seven hundred million pounds worth of pension funds which is owned by a charity and the and the accounts that were given to I M R O and these accounts were given to I M R O a year later, were charity commission er type accounts, which evidently showed something like five hundred thousand pounds in that charitable fund and er and no transactions you know, so and that company that was running that was the beneficial owner of our investment company where all the errors took place. Can I, can I just put some other bit of information in front of you as well. You mentioned the accounts of the Maxwell Charitable Trust as having five hundred thousand of assets, I saw those accounts for the first time the other day and I found that they had five hundred and one thousand of assets of which er five hundred thousand consisted of a a purely hypothetical transfer of an asset from a Liechtenstein trust to the U K trust and that asset had no valuation done on it as far as I can make out a and no reference to any valuation appeared in the accounts, so we actually had B I M apparently owned by a charitable trust on the face of it with figures of five hundred and one thousand of assets, but in practical accounting terms and valuation terms, no evidence that those five hundred and one thousand pounds er of assets had any valuation approaching that figure. Can now, can we actually move on a bit because, that has been very valuable what you said, but in fairness to Mr Maxwell it also has to be said doesn't it that up until he stole these assets er this process of throwing organisations, peoples monies into a spin dryer and pulling them out of different sort of sequences was something he regularly did and we've had witnesses to say how well he did manage the funds and how they grew, whether when they should sell stock and when they shouldn't sell stock and so on. So we're actually concentrating on the actual business of that in the final analysis, despite how he behaved, large amounts of funds were stolen and you b you've kicked us off to a very valuable start about whether that would be harder to do faced with a Maxwell-type character if all of Good was implemented. So w we're grateful for that. We'd also for those new pieces of the puzzle you've given us today over erm Liechtenstein. But can I take the questions back to Jimmy please and continue. Well obviously the sad reality of the thing doesn't come home to, to our countrymen and a man comes up last week and tells me that he's been paid off by the Daily Record he's been working for them for thirty five years and he asked what how much pension will he have and says that he's getting four years pension. Now that's a s er sad reality of this er national fraud that er Maxwell committed. Now what I'm saying to you is that there's a big question mark as far as Goodey er report is concerned and they can talk about er the surpluses, they can talk about the trustees, but there's no majority as far as the employees are concerned and this was the question mark that we we were saying that one of the reasons why they were saying you know that the employee should be in the minority because in the end paragraph of the summing up of the Goodey report that states quite clearly that all the responsibility and all the but the employer, now you yourself has said that er as far as the schemes and we're talking of something in the region of a hundred and twenty eight thousand. Now say for instance that because of the minimum solvency er agreement the employers have got to pay whatever their loss is, and if and I asked this question of the T U C that if there was a situation of where the employees were in the majority and forget the pension regulator, because there was a regulator anyway, so you can add whatever name that y you liked to have, but the fraud still went on, but say the employees were in the majority as far as the trustees is concerned and they were in full control and the control was taken away from the employers and there was a a federation of the hundred and twenty eight thousand with a central fund paying off heavy loss of any minimum solvencies, then surely that would be the ideal situation in order to safeguard, because when I asked Goodey himself when he submitted his report, he said they could not give any categ categorical assurance that nobody could defraud in any scheme under the proposals he's made. As far as I'm concerned personally, I think it's very, very weak,take it back and re-draft it and allow the employees to be in the control of their own destiny, because after a national fraud and a scandal that's taken place that we could never trust any employer to carry out a scheme. If I can please er I think our comments on that er perhaps Mr Ray is being er using the grob global flays when he refers to employees. In the pension scheme there are typically three groups of members, the existing pensioners er those people who are still working for the company, the employees and the third group of er members who work for the companies generally referred to as deferred members. They all have interest in the scheme so that we would believe the thing to do would be to have at least an equal number of employer appointed trustees and employee appointed trustees and the employee in this, I'm using it globally, so it does cover all three groups and we also believe it would be advisable because er inevitably the e er members er probably wouldn't know a lot about pensions themselves to have an independent trustee from an independent company who specialises in pensions and pensions laws and could a advise them on exactly what the law says and what they they're legal duties etcetera are. Yeah, but you know that the Goodey report makes it quite clear that the employer is responsible for starting the scheme, winding up the scheme and increasing or decreasing the contributions. Good d Good does in fact do what you said and his recommendation er for final salary schemes is er a third of the trustees should be or have the right to be er from the, the members and er er we've in our er comments to you have er looked at a global point of view and said no not are these proposals worthy in themselves, but using a different criteria that if they had been law as Ken said earlier, would they have stopped Maxwell and a situation where a third of the trustees were er were they members er would have made no difference er cos typically in our cases there were originally about four trustees er and unfortunately for us, three of them were named Maxwell. little further. Peter? Well, yes, just to look at the wh the question of balance of power between the employer on the one hand and the members on the other hand and then between the different categories of members the active payers-in, the pensioners and the deferred pensioners. How do you see the proposals in the er Good Report and what what exact proposals do you have yourselves? Well the proposals in the Good Report as I said for final salary schemes is that a third of the trustees should be elected from he actually says from the active members er we know and comments that in great length a about the difficulties that it would be to er actually er elect er er members who are pensioners or from the deferreds Er I find that er somewhat simplistic view point in that er er the pensioners at least get communications from the administrators of the scheme every month, they get a monthly cheque, so it sh shouldn't be beyond the wit of man to be able to er be able to contact the pensioners and organise pensioner meetings but pensioner trustees to be elected. postal balance easily enough. In fact I think oddly enough I think the way that the Daily Mirror Trustees are now organised with postal balance and representatives classes, I think you know is almost a model now of how a set of trustees should run, you know, they but they have got a very good scheme of how they do actually elect their trustees from various groups of of members. But do you envisage the employers should be in a position of the minority on the scheme? Well I think the whole problem is erm is really we should some someone's got to ask the question are are final, final salary schemes going to last well into the next century. You know because if you are going to ask an employer to enter into a contract between the between an individual employee, then really you've got to give him some advantages to do that and I think that er I don't know what the figures are or the number of final salary pension schemes that have been launched in the last couple of years, but I should think it be, be quite few and I think that there is a difficulty that if we go too far in taking power away from the er from the employer, erm then I, I can see the demise of final salary pension schemes, so I think one's got to keep a balance there of erm you know that i that you mustn't turn the employee off completely from this type of scheme. That's very clear, thank you. David Shaw. Ken, if we could er look at what's actually happening out there to pensioners at the moment, I think of which we're all very concerned, but there has been a small item of good news to balance against the concerns we have for those pensioners that are still suffering from uncertainty and that is some money has started to come in as a result of legal actions and settlements out of court. Can you tell me what the current position is as you understand it Yeah. and what your views are on some of these settlements that have been made? Yes well, erm I think I mean I I did check with the various trustees last week and the current position is erm there was basically a four hundred and sixty million that er that was the original missing figure, to which now goes back over two years er recoveries have come to into over a hundred thousand now with the Hundred million Hundred million, sorry er I got th I I missed off the nought on the end erm It's erm and yeah, er but that was his speciality er so it's so of that four hundred and sixty million er a hundred million odd er just over a hundred million has been recovered, but unfortunately we still have three hundred and eighty million of liabilities erm that is due in part to the fact that with low interest rates really the liability value has increased. So you know there the recoveries are very good, very welcomed by us, but basically we're two years now since this happened erm pensioners have been suffering extreme mental turmoil for that period, quite frankly they're, they're utterly confused, they don't understand what's happening and to ask those sort of people to rely and put their s their, their whole future security on the outcomings of out of court settlements where claims are made for two hundred million and there's a thirty two million you know they're getting totally confused and I think that that they just do not know what's happening, they, they want long-term security, we're now getting an increasing number of people who've retired since the schemes were wound up and are therefore getting a hundred per cent of their, their money from the company fund, which we're told is going to run out in two-and-a-half years time. So we've got this group of people who are and just retired, they're sixty-five and have just retired, and they're looking forward to their pension le lo losing completely in two-and-a-half years time unless something's done about it. I think that's a near suicidal situation. Can I just make one point Ken, cos you were saying they're getting thirty odd million of er of a request of two hundred million. It was actually thirty million wasn't it of a claim for fifty million, of which there was also a secondary claim which was dropped. Yes, yes I think So that so that actual that particular settlement was rather a good one, because it was thirty odd million plus eight wasn't it? Oh yes, yes, no, I think I think that er and I think that you know that particularly the the Mirror Group Newspapers Trustees doing a doing an excellent job you know, but we haven't really got into the into the stock lending er arrangements, but the, the cases those I think are particularly you know important to us you see, because there is a there's another hundred and fifty nine or a hundred and fifty three million I think of, of writs out at the moment and those I think are the ones where we're going to really see whether the, the banks dig their heels in or not, you know, I think we've, we're rea very early stage, but basically I mean we've still got eighty, getting on for eighty per cent of the missing monies still missing and we're into our third, third year. Ken, would you say though that erm one or two recent announcements connected with these judgments, I think including the er the judge in a recent M C C case which actually went I think against the administrators,b on shares but actually the judge said if the argument had been made that er these assets were held er on a trustee basis, then I might have made a different decision. Er would you not say that this has shifted the onus of responsibility very much on to the financial institutions, the banks and others who had dealings with Mr Maxwell, and isn't the judge in effect saying in your interpretation er of that, that these institutions er really have got to show they were whiter than white in their dealings and actually went in and investigated him thoroughly? Well I think I, I mean I do agree and I think that the that er that pressure is now getting on to these, these city institutions, but erm, but I still come back to the basic thing that, that really, you know what appears to me is happening is we've we're having literally millions of pounds taken out in, in issuing these massive massive writs you know, a hundred and seventy eight page writs are sort of being and really the money for those is coming out of the remaining money in our pension funds and really I feel that what wou what is happening is this, as far as I'm concerned, is all due to the self-regulatory body being set under the Financial Services Act, and in a way I feel that you know we're being made to pay for sorting out a mess that somebody else is making. I mean and I think it is the lack of the regulate the er the regulatory control of city actions, I mean one of the points that we've been recently been advised on is that one of the city institutions which has already been er fined, er from its London office on a technicality is in effect the New York and London offices are deemed to be one entity and I think that er what we've been advised is that erm I forget the phrase, I wrote it down here somewhere, that what we would be advised to do is to take action against that particular city institution in New York, because that er it is deemed that the London and New York actions are in fact one and that the that er what in fact the er and I think the f yes, there it is, that, that in a way though what we've been advised is that the basis of that action would be that the organisations London and New York operations are essentially the same operation and bound by a strict know your customer rule as mandated by U S Securities Law, you know. Now I can see the sense of that, you know, we could probably go to a New York lawyer on a no no win, no pay basis and take action agai an and argue that case, but you know is this what, what really people who've paid pensions for thirty or forty years should be dealing with, you know. It was, can I just bring you back to that point Yes. that particular organisation I presume is, is the one that is known as the most profitable investment bank partnership in the world or in history and presumably the reason why you've been advised is because the advisor or the director to Robert Maxwell who was instrumental in dealing with Robert Maxwell business wherever he was in the world and I mean I've seen er faxes and cables to France where er that particular director, I believe Mr Shineberg was, I've seen faxes about Jersey business to Mr Shineberg er presumably er you're being advised to take that action because in effect it was operating as one operation with transactions routed through New York, routed through London as seemed to suit the circumstances, but not necessarily with any rational basis other than er to avoid perhaps regulation. Er Ken, you don't have to answer that the David sitting behind you a number of er representatives of legal firms representing interest and David's making sure it's worthwhile coming today. Chairman, I can't imagine how you could possibly contemplate that. No, I think, I think The interesting point is that, that I feel is, that this is, this, this, this all has a very heavy bearing on the regulatory system, because I think that really we're now being financial services is a global village and you know whether somebody picks up a phone and di I think in fact didn't you have somebody gave evidence here and said that they could not investigate one of Maxwell's transactions, because it had gone through the New York office. Now if we're going to try and eliminate the prob the sort of problems, then really we've got to think of on an international regulatory basis, rather than just in the U K. David? Can I bring you erm back to the U K and what we can do in the U K, although I agree with you, we need to be looking with certain organisations at regulation on a Trans-Atlantic basis, but from a U K point of view, erm the Good Committee Report has suggested that a pensions regulator should er be brought into being. Do you think that if we had a pensions regulator, er it might deal with some of the exploitations by Robert Maxwell er and some of the er aspects of where he breached the law and managed to take over pension funds. I suppose in asking that question I've got to ask you to rule out er all transactions er which have sort of transacted through New York and London at the same, or, or at different times, because quite clearly the Good Committee would er all their suggestions would fail on that behalf You've just destroyed the question I was going to ask you really before I got to the question. No I don't think so, no I don't think so. I mean th there's one little phrase that I picked out of Good which o regarding the, the pension regulator and he actually used the word that he envisages the pension regulator and I now quote will be less pro-active than the F S A regulators. How you can be less pro-active than I M R O I can't understand or I M R O at that particular time, but what it appears to be me is that erm that if we're not careful, we're gon th the pension regulator's just gonna be a rubber stamp factory. You know, it's got a hundred and twenty eight thousand pension schemes, papers are gonna flood through the door and annual reports and that sort of thing and it seems to me that all of Goods th the way that this, this pension regulator is deemed to act is that he's expecting the auditors and the actuaries to whistle blow and Well, well I think I would, I would rath it I mean i it they've got the responsibility to whistle blow now, you know, professional they've got, er you know, they're they these are professionals and they should, they should whistle blow and I mean Maxwell is a perfect example of how nobody, nobody blew the whistle and if you read through the writs, those lots of these people knew what were what was happening an and the whistle should have been blown and I see no reason why the why the pension regulator is going to get any different, different response and also I mean really these people are being in many cases given by th given information by their clients, you know, and I think it's a very difficult situation to turn round to, to somebody like Mr Maxwell and say well look I'm terribly sorry Mr Maxwell, we're going to report you to the pensions regulator, you know and I think that, that er you will just find that that I just don't feel that the pension regulator in, in that respect, I mean I, I think that I might like to if Peter suggested a pension fraud squad that, that had a open telephone line and the same sort of er powers as the Serious Fraud Office you know, so that if er anybody in a pension fund could, could ring a number and er and people absolutely descended th that, I mean they ge they say somewhere in the report that the pension regulator is going to have er powers and monies to do spot checks. Well how on earth do you start spot checking on a hundred and twenty eight thousand companies you know, the first nine hundred and ninety five that you do may be the ones that are running perfectly. Can I just put to you there that the pensions regulator may be able to handle aspects like audit reports and established well established documentation and procedures, but are you not really suggesting erm that in the circumstances of Maxwell where the Committee saw for example a transaction that actually had thirty different transactions and therefore unless one looked at the overview of those thirty transactions, one couldn't realise that the bank effectively was involved in a fraud. They're a very well known bank, but nevertheless effectively involved in a fraud. Now how is a pensions regulator going to look at those thirty transactions, therefore are you not effectively saying that the pensions regulator may work in areas where pensions regulation actually works now. The problem is the pensions regulator won't work in the areas where regulation isn't working now. Absolutely. Yeah. I think that's I understand the point you're making about er self regulation and er I think it's brought a lot of the problems upon us and enabled the frauds to take place er and that's what de-regulation and self regulation leads to. What would be your proposals for controlling pension funds? Well I think if er if what had ha if er I mean before what he had before self regulation was the D T I issued erm certificates to investment management organising, you know, and I think that if er if power had remained on that basis with the D T I, I don't I'd be sitting here now. I don't think the I don't think the D T I would have issued a investment management certificate to Robert Maxwell you know because he'd done naughty things in the past, so he just wouldn't have got the certificate. I mean it was what, what and if you go through all the papers you can see that, that Robert Maxwell really saw that self regulation erm legislation being that he could finally get control through an investment management company of his pension funds. Were the D T I open to erm pressure, suggestions, information from members of pension funds I don't know, but I er, no I think I don't know I'm not you know, my experience of pension funds is it's, it's you know is only in the last two years really, I'm er. You're an expert, expert over that bit maybe The other thing that might contribute to er er improving matters would be if the compensation arrangements er were such that the er fund managers were involved in having to provide some of the compensa compensation if there were any to be paid, then there's obviously a very good incentive for them to police themselves more thoroughly. Under the present compensation er proposals put forward by Good, it would all be provided by the pension funds themselves and there's no pain for the fund managers er no requirement really for them to blow the whistle. Clifford? No the erm none of your papers to the committee concentrated on the the compensation er proposals from the Good report, and as you know it's a scheme er which is proposed to be restric restricted to losses ari arising from fraud, theft and intentional misappropriation of assets and is just up to a limit of ninety per cent. How do you consider that the proposals for that scheme offer adequate cover er to members of pension schemes? No we don't, erm we in principle obviously we are in favour of er there being some form of compensation scheme and that has to be regarded as erm a step forward, er it would be better if er whatever compensation scheme is gonna be introduced was introduced now and the committee recommended and not in nineteen ninety-six or whenever it may be that the legislation is enacted. Er but in in terms of the proposals they actually make erm we find them somewhat contradictory in that erm it says earlier on in the in the committees report that erm accrued rights must be protected erm, it doesn't say accrued rights which have to be lost through misappropriation of assets must be protected. Whereas the proposals that they're making is only those rights which may be lost because of misappropriation of assets er would be compensated by the compensation fund. We feel it should be extended to all assets er all, all accrued rights that are not able to be provided. Erm we believe that er where in cases of erm misappropriated or fraud, the compensation fund should be for a hundred per cent of what has gone. In cases where it's due to er under performance in the case of insolvency for example or other situations, we can see the argument for having a smaller proportion, but it should cover both. Does the compensation scheme cover that? No, not at present and we believe that it should. Er you think you think it should be wider then, a wider scheme. Yes absolutely wide, yes. In order to cover any er any rights which are lost and secondly er it's inevitably the case that we are particularly disappointed er that the proposals are not retrospective. After all if it wasn't for the Maxwell fraud, the Good Committee would never have been set up. Erm we feel that er in that circumstance the proposals should be retrospective erm and we find the Good Committees er comment on this singularly unhelpful, in that all they say is we do not accept that retrospective implementation of the compensation scheme is appropriate full stop. Why not? We think that it should be. Er if for no other reason than er if the compensation scheme was to be made retrospective to include the victims of the Maxwell fraud, it would at least erm restore some public confidence in the in the pensions industry. Er and after all, if all the efforts that have been made that we have discussed just at, just now, er towards getting the money back are successful, well then the compensation that had been paid would be repaid. So those are our main concerns about the compensation. Well I'm very interested in what you say er could you, could I ask you a couple of questions. How do you think the retrospective scheme compensation scheme would actually work and if I could give you an example erm should it apply to all schemes which have been affected in the past er perhaps after a certain date or if you were going to make that decision, where would the cut-off date be, how far back would you go and what schemes would you look at Er if it's gonna be retrospective? only look at er er it's a scheme that really raised the whole problem that the erm er Ken commented earlier that er er prior to the Financial Services Act coming into force which I think was some time in nineteen eighty-eight, the er D T I was responsible and there come back to the D T I if these sort of things had applied and er compensation effectively by the D T I for mal-administration or whatever so that er say we don't pretend to be pension experts, so any retrospection that I would suggest might well be appropriate as at the date of the Financial Services Act becoming into force. After all it was suggested er by er Michael Howard in who was Corporate Affairs Minister in nineteen eighty-six in, in the House of Commons he said that the Government believe that members of a pension scheme are in effect investors in that scheme and that that they deserve the protection of the Bill will extend to investors and it never did. So it would not seem unreasonable that you know, from the date of the Financial Services Act it might come in there. Would be a wide ranging scheme covering all the aspects of the We believe it should be. Could, could erm, I ask you then how you think it should be funded? Well the proposals that are made in the in the Committees er report for funding erm seem to us acceptable with the exception of the comment we have already made erm i acceptable in the sense that they would be borne by erm all pension funds in proportion to their the size of their assets and in relation to the size of the er compensation has to be paid. We believe that it would be more sensible if a proportion of the compensation would be met by people like pension fund managers if for no other reason that it would encourage them to er keep their own house in order erm and you know it's not a bad er principle to operate in these areas. Now you know,wi with lots of experts in this field and so we 're we only simply put that forward as a, a general suggestion whether it should be one-third from them and two- thirds from the pension funds, you know, I don't think is a matter of great importance to us, but we do think that the should perhaps be a bit spread, spread a bit more widely than just into the pension funds. It's probably not to yourselves providing the compensation was paid and that's fine, but it would be a matter of great importance to those for whom that it would have to provide the money. Sure. And how would you envisage that er was operated. H how would you balance that out back to the date that you're talking about? Well W w w we can see, you can visualise from now if we start it now, you'd say well, everyone now knows that if anything goes wrong, this is what they will have to pay, but how are you going to take it back? Well actually, no,I I I would disagree with you at the moment. If something goes wrong, they don't know what they are going to have to pay because if I'm a pension fund manager now, I don't know what is likely to happen in the next year which is going call on me for compensation. All I know is that probably during the course of the year something will happen and I might have to chip in you know, a thousand pounds or a million pounds or whatever, but I don't know how much it's going to be. In this case, at least it is possible to calculate the total er total amount that is missing and that could be divided up between your pension funds and it would of course be a a one-off hit on those funds. Tha that would mean that all pensioners who are drawing the pension from pension funds would be penalised back to the date that you're talking about. No, it's the employers ultimately who will be penalised because the employers are required to make up any shortfall in the assets of the funds not the pensioners. So the pen employers pay Ultimately yes. And that but al as we said, a proportion of it we believe should be met not from the pension funds, but from the er from, from managers. But if you've got er four hundred and eighty million pounds missing and you're saying that pension fund managers should er pay a third of it and this is a pay as you go scheme rather than a funded scheme of compensation, how many pension fund managers do you think would be able to cough up their third? I don't have at the tip of my fingers the total level of funds managed, but Once again there is n not necessarily er anybody to write out a cheque for one million pounds o or whatever. Most of these liabilities er inevitably aren't necessarily for pensions payments they're back to the active members, some of whom won't make any actual claim on this possibly for thirty years time, so there could well be a er a a scheme which is arrived at which is a pay as you go, which isn't any great liability o on, on any one pension scheme at any particular moment in time. I thought you were trying to actually pin responsibility not to organisations, but to people that here was Mrs Thatchers philosophy really working and market was gonna discipline pay out their own pockets. Now if I'm the fund manager and you've gotta deferred member, nobody's gonna waste thirty years for me to pay up their pension, I won't be here probably in thirty years time er so they want the money up front. They don't want me paying d you know like their pension deferred, so if you're serious about the fu pension fund managers paying, we're talking y you know earlier you said four hundred and eighty million whatever it is lost, they're paying a third, pension fund managers have got to come up with that sort of sum. Now I just don't think that's rea realistic, that's different from saying you may have a bail system, cos that's what I thought you were suggesting and for people to b come into the ring as pension fund managers, they would have to perhaps to put up securities of a million pounds each to o operate in this area and that if they behave badly, if funds went missing, if it was proved they were negligent, they would lose their million pounds bail, just as people lose bail when they don't turn up to court. Now that seems to me, that might induce er slightly might do, but I could I I think that,wha I what I thought you were saying was different from what you ended up saying and I'm not sure which I think the thing that sort of has really bugged me righ right from the start of this thing was that when this when the Financial Services Act was put before Parliament, everybody was told the Gower Report and everything said pensions are the same as assets, all your assets and must be protected as such. Th th the House was told that and that was what the situation. It then went into the City to set up their own self-regulatory and we in fact went to see Mr Redwood and he was quite he was very quite blunt about it, he said well, they considered it when they were sid considering the investors compensation scheme, but the sum involved in pensions are so great, that they could not afford to underwrite a pension er a compensation fund for pensions, so therefore there's a pension fund for for private investment, but not a pension fund er compensation fund for, for occupation. Now how how you work it on your scheme or whatever scheme comes up, it just seems to me that if you are going to have self-regulatory body, there's got to be responsibility for it and how you impose that responsibility, could I'm sure be in all sorts of different ways. We've got to find, we're taking up all very well, er Jane? Er it's really is to follow on from this debate that we're having about what should happen if a shortfall occurs, erm and we've heard, I've been listening carefully to your views about er the way in which you agree with the Good Committee that a shortfall is an employers debt, the employers responsibility to meet that shortfall and we've been talking about that shortfall should be met, but the Good Committee also concluded that er pensioners should not be regarded as preferential creditors erm and you also agreed with that. Could you explain for the record what your reasons were for arriving at that conclusion? Could you take that I think that the I think the question of that really, I'm trying to, I can't quite frankly, I think that's Mike Kirkham in this who particularly investigated that one, but I think that basically what we were really saying was on what I was saying earlier on is that if you make it too difficult for the employers, you're going to take away the incentive to run a final salary scheme, you know that you know I think basically final salary pension schemes are good for the employee, you know, I think that was what our fundamental thinking of on that was. Do you think this er really goes back to the fundamental issue which the Good Committee didn't really address which was the issue of ownership of the pension funds and assets and that whilst pensioners and to an extent employers these days regard the pension fund as deferred pay and pensions payments as deferred pay, the ownership of those funds is still left erm neither still er an argument about wh wh who owns the funds and er a lot of this follows on from that. Yes, well I think that's why you that's why I keep on trying to come back to the regulatory system, because what you really in fundamental form a pension is a contract between an employer and an individual, you know you pay me so much money and when you get to a certain age I will pay you. That's the fundamental as far as I see it of a pension fund. The problem I think comes when you go when you become insolvent, you know, and I think that's and so therefore unless we're going to come up with some system where we do insure our pensions as we do our home, then you, you, you're still back to the basic contract between a company and an individual. I think that's the the real sort of problem of trying to say the assets belong to the for the pensioner, you know I think there, there are great difficulties unless you're gonna rule out final salary pension schemes. Great. Ken I calculated you've actually given us nine major points in your submission. Now are there from our questions, issues which we've missed that you just want to touch on before we conclude? Well I think er well we've gotta er I think we've gotta few points, there's, there's one on stock lending which we think needs to be looked at. Do you wanna make a couple of comments Yes. You make some comments Er Good er concludes that er stock lending is er no different from other aspects of er the market in general er as I understand it, stock lending as far as pension funds concerned, usually works with pension fund has this collection of stocks and shares. Er financial institution is sure to meet its position, it comes to the pension fund says can you loan me th this stock in the return of which I will er pay you the equivalent sum of money plus some interest. That sounds all very well and good, the way as my reading of the at least one of the writs is concerned is that er Maxwell operated this in entirely the reverse. He er wasn't the lender, he was the borrower, he went to the bank, says can I borrow this collection of treasury bonds, which he has to put pension fund assets to stock, so he's immediately er going against his duty as a trustee cos it's costing the pension fund money this er er excess of five to ten per cent. Secondly he owes bonds were immediately sold to another part of the same part of the organisation again at a discount, so that cost the pension funds even more money, and to the final injury the payment of that cash for the er treasury bonds went to accounts which were not the property of the pension funds at all. Hence we are four hundred and eighty million and whatever is out of pocket. Er we would say that as, that as far as pension funds are concerned, stock lending in that way should be prohibited and the puerilely ca carrying on that er is that er it should be any account for a pension fund should carry the names of pension funds and any transactions involved with pension fund money whether it should be a duty of financial institutions to make sure that any account they were paying money into was a pension fund account. if I may say so is a key point isn't it that a lot of the transactions you've discussed were off-market transactions, they were unusual transactions and the financial institutions that were carrying out those transactions whether they were acting as banker or acting as broker, they would have had knowledge that those transactions were not normal market transactions. So if the law was clear that in those circumstances they should have been on notice and should have therefore watched where the money was going, there wouldn't have been a problem and are we not saying that legitimate stock lending, which I think is what Good is abou is suggesting, if carried on properly on market, would be all right, but if it immediately goes off market into the back doors and back rooms and people can't see what's going on and the financial institutions take part in that, then they are doing something that un undoubtedly is probably going to cause loss to pension funds and shouldn't there be a clear law which makes them liable in those circumstances. you were saying it was wrong anyway weren't you? Oh, I'd say it is w wrong anyway in that er I say it's the it's early er on it in the report Good defines what he determines a trustees duty and as I said to a sort of effectively ought enter into a tr transaction which immediately cost effecting kind of money rather than making money for the pension fund then it is against that duty in the first place, but it's to it should however be ma made explicit that it is against that duty saying stock lending may be okay for a pension fund, but not stock lending where the er pension fund is acting as the borrower rather than the lender. Right, Ken any other points? Er can I I started to comment on about the er, er bank accounts which are you know er my the reaction that I saw was all round the table and I think we would go further that er any company handling pension funds should carry pensions somewhere in their names and all on all their paperwork etcetera so that everybody's totally clear that they are dealing with pension funds and er to agree with a comment that you made in one of your earlier reports that er designation of ownership of shares of pension funds should be clearly er marked on those shares er that also would of er at least alerted these financial institutions, as once again that they were handling stocks belonging to pension fund and they still have ignored it in the case that er they did, but er er they would ha not had the excuse that er apparently some of them have made that er they were not aware that these were pension funds assets. I think still claiming well it's not that I didn't know, but anyway er Ken Er well we did, we were gonna raise a point on that, the clash of the regulatory rules and the duty of under Trust Law, you know, and I, I think there, there was a comment tha that I picked up with Professor Gower you know in his report which I think, where he said the Government obviously have greater confidence than I in reliance on pristine Trust Law in relation to modern commercial developments such as unit trusts and occupational pension schemes, which its founding fathers never contemplated. Now there was nothing in Good really that I think addressed this mismatch between those two types of law. Now I think that, that Good did say oh well, there is a Law Commission Report expected, but I think that you know that Good should address somewhere tha that problem of Trust Law and regulationship and then I did in fact on going through the report and er you know and also your own reports erm there's the one about designation of assets you know, which I think was a very good recommendation of yours. I think the actuarial responsibilities and the wider role of actuaries was important. I think the inde independent corroboration for actuaries was another important factor, custody confirmation by the auditors, veto of transfer of assets, independent auditors for pension funds, independent custodian arrangements, in-house investment management, you made some comments, co-ordination or the various regulators, co-ordination of the professional advisors, establishment of a pension tribunal, you know, now as far as I was concerned or on my sort of looking through it, those were all recommendations that, that you've made over your two years and I couldn't really find any response to those in Good and I think that's a you know we, we personally found that disappointing. Also I mean, we take your point and we've made it before Ken that there's a real danger of asking for a report from someone like Professor Gower and then cherry picking it, instead of actually taking the whole, because it does actually add together in some sort of coherence erm and had Professor Gower's report been accepted in its entirety, we may not have been had the pleasure of having you back again today, but thank you very much er all three of you for coming. Thank you very much. I would suggest is the timescale between these things happening and it getting to the regulator and being digested. In the present didn't understand for two years I mean told the regulator Yes, yes er whereas if there were independent trustees responsible to the regulator and they were properly trained, they would I suggest be able to smell out very quickly an malpractice and would have a group straight to the regulator, if only to call a stop for someone to have a look at it. nothing recommended to Goodey in that particular cause is of any good. I don't think so. Erm er Imperial? I M P A Cs belief is that er if you get the trustee balance right, that's the first place where the decision ought to be made, but there should be a fall back position which Good has given, which they they trustees could go to the regulator in the case of er not being able to solve things, but our feeling very much on surplus is that the money is there first for to pay pensions and until pensions are paid up to Inland Revenue levels whatever they are, then no money should go back to the company. The question of taking pension holidays in between out of surplus is a sort of mid midway position, but er very definitely we feel strongly that money should not go back to the company. We have suffered from the same thing as the other two er Abalance have said today of money being used from our surplus to provide for redundancy and erm it's been exacerbated by money being available from the people who were made, made redundant going to the company and swelling their balance sheets while all the cost side of it comes out of the pension fund and that has caused a lot of ill-feeling particularly from the older pensioners who have seen years of inflation, when their pensions were not made up to the same extent. In the old days when there was a possibility of of erm ad hoc payments made er that sort of thing was taken care of, since the takeover of the company that hasn't happened to the same extent, so there's a very strong feeling with the older pay er pensioners that they paid money into a pension scheme which now shows a surplus, but other people are benefiting from it. We need we've got lots more questions to ask you. Peter? Erm Mrs Appleby you mentioned briefly earlier the role of the regulator. How do you see the regulator doing his job with a hundred and twenty-eight thousand schemes to, to monitor? Great difficulty I would imagine. erm er well we welcome the erm er the proposal that there should be a regulator. Somebody er to whom the erm er matters could be referred to er whom er could remove trustees er who are er not acting in er the best interests er of the fund er to whom er I understand that the erm beneficiaries could er appeal if they felt that their fund was being erm used i in the wrong way, which is something that we haven't got at the moment. Erm I mean just going very, very briefly back to the question that you asked erm about this how would you stop what's happen happening is by having, we would have thought a pensioner trustee, because even the question has been asked how did it get through the union trustees, and the answer that most of them are employed and they are looking over their shoulder because jobs are going, redundancies are being made, you've got a pensioner employee er a pensioner trustee on there, and they're not looking over their shoulder for their job, they are going to do the job of a trustee and watch the fund and they would then be able to go to the regulator if they saw something that was amiss, but if somebody is employed by the firm might be very worried about doing because they're more bothered about keeping their job. Though, the case you're putting that the, the pensioner trustee er ship is more powerful than you originally put, cos up to now you've been put it in grounds that it's the trust should be repr representative of it Yes Now you're saying er rather well, that in fact that person or persons could be more independent Yes. because they're actually not worried about being sacked Yes. either erm because redundancies are coming or as Imperial Trustees found, they were just got ridden of as a way of moving them off the trust. Yeah, very good. large carrots being dangled in front of them. I mean we ought to say in our case approved our the proposals of the company, they raise no objections in which only the who raised objections, the employees didn't and in the High Court case we've just said, how can an employee be independent, when he depends upon his employer for his future work. So really what you're saying is that if we're looking at trip wires to stop things happening, there's a power a really powerful case for a pensioner trustee, but you're looking for whistle blowers. Yes. There's also a powerful case for having pensioner trustees that they will so there's far less chance of erm people twisting their arm, although they could have the carrot dangled in front of them. that's But that's the problem we all face isn't it. And we're also saying that if you have a new pensions act, the work of the regulator will be much easier. Why? You won't keep have to be going off to court to find out what is the law at that moment of time. Touche. Could I, could I turn to one of the major contributors of erm of pension fund surpluses er and that is the plight of the deferred pensioner. The person who leaves the company's employment er could I ask you, each of you in turn briefly for some comments about how you feel deferred pension rights can best be preserved, if they can be preserved at all er adequately. I suppose in one way as a pensioner I shall say what happens about you know I'm not worried about if you're a pensioner because every time one someone becomes a deferred pensioner, our surplus goes up Yes. because the liability is extinguished. Yes. I cannot see why the actuary having a liability for an employee, if that employee becomes a deferred pensioner that the actuary having a liability for the fund But don't Yes they are Can I, you the example you did before to other people was that if you worked you know your normal scheme forty years and if you worked for ten of those forty years you become deferred. Do you have a quarter of the right you would expect if you done the forty years. Is that the sort of way one should underwrite the position as a deferred pensioner Yes Yes What I think my colleague is saying is that when the actuary is assessing the commitments of the funds, he is looking at the anticipated increased earnings until the person retires and I think when the calculation is made for somebody who is er a deferred pensioner of leaving er a pension fund to take his money elsewhere a similar calculation or the same calculation should be used, the one that the actuary last used in, in looking forward and saying what the commitments are. That way the fi the surpluses left behind would be less, but the person transferring and we're going to see more and more of this today er takes a fair amount of money with him. But of course if salaries go up evenly throughout a forty year lifespan and the Chairman is given a forty year lifespan which is quite or pension lifespan which is quite a suitable one, if salaries go up and someone leaves their company every ten years, then the first three departures are obviously going to be at much lower salary levels and it's not going to be satisfactory the first three departures are just index linked to inflation, there is the problem of how does one index link them towards the final salary. Otherwise that person having worked for four different employers during the forty years will not retire on two-thirds of final salary, but will retire on two-thirds er only perhaps the last employer for the last ten years. It isn't a question Chairman but it's easy to ask as it seems,we you said a ten year, but what about a thirty service of deferred pension, that could be an entirely different situation, because that is inflation put under the Post Office and B T ones it's inflation proofed every year, so for the ten years, if he's if he's got another ten years before he draws his pension at sixty, he would have that er deferred pension inflation proofed every year. So a thirty year old service might be entirely different than a person with ten years service deferring his pension. Yes, the reason why we picked a forty year lifespan of work or working life er with four tens was because Professor Good himself told us that er on their research the common employment pattern today is in fact four employers over the working life and of course that is very different from the experience of many pensioners who are drawing today from their pension funds, because many of them were long-term, long-service employees throughout their lives with one employer. But you were saying weren't you you described this world which lots of us now have lost and somebody leaving school starting a job and retiring from that job, so the que the question David's asked you is more important isn't it because deferred pensions are probably gonna become more, not less common. They are becoming a lot more common, yes when you look in the report and accounts there are far, far more of these deferred pensioners there than er than ever used to exist and it's something which I must admit we haven't given a lot of thought to yet, but it's something because it's growing that we will have to address erm in our federation, we will have to address that problem. And the danger presumably is that the surpluses we were having our discussion and debate about earlier on, those surpluses that and I do understand why you feel the pensioners should benefit from their surplus, but it the reality is that the employers and possibly the pensioners are currently arguing amongst themselves for the benefit of those surpluses, but in fact one of the significant contributors is often the deferred pensioners Yes. and the deferred pensioners are not actually getting in on the debate, they're not often represented on the trustees in fact. No, they're n they're not represented, erm but I think we would b you know, I mean I think they, they should get be considered certainly erm dependent upon the length of service which they have put in it's certainly something for the future. I was gonna make a point about the one you raised the practicalities of the situation. I don't know enough actuarial work to be able to and what settlements they should receive, but our own experience is that it's hard enough to round up pensioners to form an association and we embody deferred pensioners and they're even harder. We just don't seem to be able to track them down or attract them in quite the same way, so there is a massive practical problem if you want them to have a voice in how things are done, there's no doubt about that. We have that same problem, but er it can be solved quite easily, the employer knows the addresses of pensioners, there's nothing to stop pensioner association being formed. We are unable to get addresses of our so it's word of mouth how we, how we er include, but why should not the employer send to all pensioners and deferred pensioners notices about the associations. Could I ask you very quickly on that note, do you think the answer is to try and set up a voting mechanism amongst the deferred pensioners, or is the answer that one should actually appoint a professional independent trustee, specifically with the duties of looking after the deferred pensioners in the debates that you have identified often take place? We were told that that is impossible to take a vote because with big organisations like B T and the Post Office one example was to sell off a Girobank there are eight thousand people, but they were just told you can either defer your pension, leave it with the Post Office Pension Fund, transfer it to the Leicester and Alliance who bought Girobank, or take your money out and take up a personal pension scheme. They were given no votes or erm opportunities and of course the same thing will happen if and when the Parcelforce is sold off from the Post Office er there's twenty thousand people there. I doubt very much whether they'll be given any opportunity to voice what happens to them when they're transferred or what happens to the fund. They'll be given the same three options I should imagine. So you would feel probably the best mechanism would be the appointment of somebody who is given that responsibility and solely that responsibility of reporting and looking after the interest of the deferred pensioners. Yes. You would agree with that? Yes I would agree, would favour that because I think it would force another issue, if, if the independent rule too often against the deferred pensioners I suspect they'd organise themselves. You see in British Steel we we have seventy thousand deferred pensioners and er it is a group of people that I feel extremely sorry for, because er in nineteen eighty-six British Steel introduced into their pension scheme while it was still in the public sector, retirement at sixty where with a pension credit spaced on length of service, so if you had thirty-five years service in, you could retire at sixty as if you were sixty-five and there was nothing done at all for deferred pensioners and in certainly our submission to British Steel for seeking improvements, we we asked that they er they look at deferred pensioner with a view to paying their pensions at sixty, recognising that it was a very high-class plane that might have to be er achieved in stages. We also recognise that there is a tremendous problem for deferred pensioners in achieving reasonable transfer values er er er it's a massive problem for them, even where they could find perhaps something to do with that money and a scheme that would do them better, not always, because there, there are people that give bad advice, but there are some that go into it very thoroughly and when it comes down to the bit the transfer value they receive makes it im practically impossible for them to do it. But we've got So we would like er to support what you're saying. We've got six more minutes, David? Er shall I combine my two found questions which the Committee would like to put to you please and, and that is there are two points that really do come out of Maxwell very much, but I think you've had some experience. One is bulk transfers and the second is safeguarding of assets. Er in the context of bulk transfers would you like to comment on the Good Committees conclusions on the bulk transfers of members between schemes and how they operate, and do you think that er there is widespread abuse or do you think er on balance your experience has been that where bulk transfers have taken place, they have taken place responsibly, but I would in that context ask you to comment whether there has been an unreasonable time delay where you have experienced bank bulk transfers between the transfer actually taking place in terms of employees being transferred from an undertaking to another undertaking and the actual transfer of their pension funds. What happened in Maxwell's case was that enormous delays took place between the employees being transferred and the actual transfer of their pension. Er and could you also comment perhaps on the safeguarding of assets and any er points you would like to make in relation to the present five per cent limit on self investment. The er issue of stock lending if you heard the Maxwell pensions earlier on comment on stock lending, whether you think pension funds should do that er in the case of Maxwell as you're probably aware a lot of the stock lending was off market rather than on the market and perhaps you could also comment on the use of independent custodians in terms of the custody of investment. Er I'm sorry to throw all those at you very quickly, but they are er obviously five minutes left and B T th the question about bulk transfers. Sorry no not, British Steel, apologies. Well, I, I'd say one thing by illustration from our own situation er we were transferring bulk and I felt that was singularly unfair because the members were given a choice. The existing members were told you can either join the new scheme with its improved benefits, reduced contributions, with certain rules that were operating in favour of the employer that were against them, but it was a balancing act, or if you don't want that you can stay with the old scheme and continue with exactly the same terms. The third choice was the obvious one you can take your money and get out. Er now we, the pensioners, had no choice, we were picked up and put into the new scheme having paid our contributions appropriately to the old scheme rules which were the higher contributions, but only to pick up the new scheme rules that were against our interest. Now I can see no good reason for that being allowable, I'm not quite sure how you stop it, but I think it it's, it's a basic problem with bulk transfer, the individuals do not have a say. Very good. B T? Well I've already said about the bulk transfer Giro, I quite honestly don't know whether any other option can be given to people, they've given the option to defer their pension with the Post or their present scheme, transferred it new company scheme or take out er the money and take out a personal pension fund er I suppose there might be a possibility of offering people after a certain number past a certain number of years the opportunity to remain within the fund they're in but er the contribution and who, who makes a contribution may be a problem, but that's the only other option I can see. We don't believe that pensioners ought to be forcibly transferred, they should be given the choice. And if that was in the Statute, there would could stop the Indeed, yes. Can we then go back to the other one on safeguarding. Very difficult indeed er hearing the Maxwell people talking earlier I think er again and made that point very clear. I think we can point to some of the things that can happen that worry us. Er if you stand back from our situation and see it that er the contribution rate for employees was reduced from sixty five per cent for er a company i it became a balance of cost and that works out now at five per cent, so the total inputs of the scheme is ten per cent of earnings and that was down from eighteen per cent . Er without being an actuary I say to myself that's a pretty magical thing you've done and then it causes you to start looking at the monetary background of all of that an and again I I'm, I'm speaking here largely on what actuarial advice we are beginning to receive. I think the conclusion coming out of that is that as a result of what I've described and a few other things as well, not least the fact that the company has now capped its contribution rate to no more than ten per cent . When it gets to ten, the members stay at five when the company gets to ten, the damage is picked up by either reducing members benefits or restricted index linking. Now with a hundred and eighty thousand of pensioners and forty thousand scheme members and all of the trustees currently made up of employees and scheme members, it's pretty obvious where any correction of loss of funding is gonna come from isn't it. There can only be one target, it's the pensioners. So er when schemes by the good service of actuaries can be re-written in such extreme terms I begin to worry about it and I think it needs an input for more than one direction on the actuarial fund in our case the trustees saw fit not to use actuaries to get away But on actual safeguarding of assets, erm do you for instance with separate custodians, do you have any views about the custody of your schemes assets? Not, no, I, I've really not given thought to that subject. B T, anything? Well I was impressed by the erm the Maxwell erm peoples comments that the funds should be clearly marked pension fund accounts and and that er there would be regulations that this money couldn't be transferred without some the regulator again or somebody making er agreeing to the transaction, but I erm fully understand that would be erm very time-consuming, but er that's the only way I can see that, that the fund should be clearly marked that they're pension fund and shouldn't be transferred without some some authority agreeing to it. We have separate custodians, the Bank of Scotland are doing this and er I think er having a separate organisation outside is er an important first step, but you've then got to tie up who gives them instructions and that obviously needs careful thought, needs to be done through the trustees. just one question that I wasn't able to put on the Committee's behalf, but I think it is something that we would be very grateful for a short written comment and that is the information that your members, that the members of the pension funds actually er rather than your annual members as well in that context actually receive annually and whether you feel that is satisfactory. We can send you that. Yes, I think also how you feel it could be improved would be very relevant and how you would feel in the context of a pensioners meeting, an annual meeting like shareholders have in companies and how you if you have any views on how such a meeting might be managed in relation to the deferred pensioners interests, the existing pensioners interests, the employees interest and obviously the company's interest being adequately reflected at such a meeting but I think we would welcome that aspect. And also efforts you've made to organise yourself as groups and whether you've been encouraged or not encouraged by the owners of the scheme. Thank you. That would be very helpful. Can I thank you for coming today,th th the media often has lots of comments from the chattering classes, saying unhealthy, British democracies, cos they only concentrate on this place. I, I'm not gonna comment whether I think that's right or not, but anyone viewing your contribution today would know that outside there in the big institutions of our society democracy is very healthy. Thank you very much for coming. Thank you. Thank you. We thank you. Hello doctor. Hello. Well Mr , what can I do for you today? Er, it's a wee problem I've had for a say about a year now. Mhm. It's er my face. And my skin. I seem to get an awful lot of, it's like Aha. dry flaky skin. Yeah. And I get it on my forehead, down here I can see and under my chin. Mhm. And I've tried as many different creams. What've they been? Oh, I've, I've got them at the chemist, that E forty five, Mm. Oh aye. all different stuff, it's no good. No. And it's starting to get, you know, annoy me. Right, let's get it cleared for you. Good. I think I left it too long. No no. I should have seen you afore now. No. Mm. What kind of things causes that, you know? You'll need to watch your soap, Aha. shampoo, Right. er conditioner Right. any of these things that you use on your hair, Aha. that can run down your face. your face. Aha. Cos these are the things that cause . Yeah I thought it was soap. Mhm. And I started see now they've brought out that Dove, the moisturizer, rubbish. Crap. Right. Good. I've been buying bars and bars of that see. No, it's er Rubbish. I said maybe that'll sort it . Aye. Anything like that at all, anything Er soap powder even, affects some folk. Oh right. Aha. Er liquid soaps are the same. Er shampoos. Shower gels and things like that? I, I use All these things, are all, all exactly the same. See. So what, what would you recommend that? We ba Johnson's Baby Shampoo. Aha. End of story. That's it? That's for the whole lot. For that that does the, the business? The lot, yeah. That's fine then. Yeah. Because it's got the, it's the one with the fewest er detergents, Aye. and all of this, this gunge they put in. That's right aye. It's the safest one of the lot. That, or the next best is er Simple Soap shampoo. Aye, that's right, aye. These two are the best. That's the best to use? They're the safest to use. That's good that's fine. And if you do that, It should clear up. and you use this stuff for about a month use this stuff is quite soft. Aha. You don't need a lot of it,. It's almost almost as soft as this. This is highly perfumed stuff. Aha. Er that that isn't. This is highly perfumed, but you really See that? some like that, and just rub it in. Aye. Just like that. See a wee drop like that'll cover that, That's right. right up to there. You know, just a spot of that covers Aye you're, aye you're not going to use a lot. Aye, you won't, you won't need a lot. Just a wee drop like that. Mm. Er that stuff stinks too But er but there's the, the cream you get from the chemist John, er won't won't be like that. And . I, I've tubes of that E forty five, Aye. and I plastered it, Aye. No. and it's nothing. No. You, if you get that stuff that'll keep doing the trick for you. soaps. Aye, just watch the kind of soap you use, Aha. and watch your shampoos. That's smashing. As I say, the, the best is Johnson's Baby Aye. or Simple Soap shampoo. There're no additives? There're no additives in them at all. That's right. Right. A anything that smells like Aye pongs. Aye. Forget it. Forget it. Aye. Okay. Anything that's got even the slightest Aye. thing like that, forget it. That's fine then. So, you're still at ? That's still the same, aye. Still on . Well that's smashing, Doctor. There you are, and that'll keep that right John. That's lovely. Right, thanks Doctor . Okay look after yourself now. Same with you. Right. See you later. Cheerio now. Bye bye. Okay now if I write something down write an essay about when you, when you pass not if Yeah. When you pass. Erm right I'll just write this down. Okay if you'd like to try that. Add that up. six point eight plus nought point O two. Good yeah that's great. Right that's brilliant I think you can both do decimals. yeah that's very good I mean a lot of We done them in second year. a lot of sixteen year olds are still having trouble with decimals like that and they're adding them in the wrong place. What is the most important point when you're adding decimals? Keep the decimal in a line. Keep the decimal in a line. That's it line that up and you can't go wrong. Right who wants to tell me what a pie chart is? It's a chart in the shape of a circle. In the shape of a circle. And why do we bother doing one? So it it can show you things how m many one piece and Okay have you got anything to add to that? It's like fractions, it's like Right yes it's like fractions it can show you things and it can show you it as a sort of fraction. Erm on your computer okay. What sort of things have you seen pie charts used for? In my maths in school we just finished them on the last day. We erm had a Right. but it just shows it erm twelve hours of a baby's life. And we had a round pie chart and it was split into all different hours. Okay. So was it split into twelve sections for the twelve hours? No it was just the round circle and that was twelv That was, that was twelve hours and and how was that Yeah we put twenty four hours and then coloured in half Okay so you had twenty four hours all the way round Right okay erm what other things could you use a pie chart for? In geography we had one because erm there was a farmer and what he does and there's like a big section for sleeping, a smaller s section for eating Okay. and the cleaning the pigs and stuff like that. Right so you can use it for almost anything to show but it, it's showing it as a fraction of the whole thing. So it might be a fraction of a day a fraction of twelve hours a fraction of one hour. Erm a fraction of money is another thing they use it for. Erm how much pocket money do you get, about three hundred and sixty each? one pound I don't really get pocket money but if I see something in the shops in, in, this toy or something my mum, mum'll buy it for me and say that's your pocket money for this week. Okay so let's say if you got three pound sixty a week pocket money. Why do I pick three pound sixty or three hundred and sixty pennies? Any ideas? Cos three hundred and sixty is a full turn. Right three hundred and sixty degrees. So if we drew a pie chart how many degrees would be the same as one penny? One. Are you happy with that? Do you know, do you know about three hundred and sixty degrees goes all the way round? Ah okay when we do pie charts we're measuring angles aren't we? You, we're doing fractions if you like so you could draw a half and that would be a half of three hundred and sixty. Half of all the way round so how many would that be? Erm What's half of three sixty? One pound eighty. Right and it'd be a hundred and eighty degrees all the way round and that would represent one pound eighty if three hun three pound sixty was all the way round. And what about a quarter of the way round, what would that be? Do you know how to divide three sixty by four? Quite a big number could you divide thirty six by four? How many fours in thirty six? Okay? Could you have done, could you do half of thirty six? Mm. Okay what would half of thirty six be? Eighteen. And then what would half of eighteen be? It's er eight is it Nine. Nine. Nine so we're looking at three hundred and sixty. Trying to divide it by four. Well that's a bit awkward so pretend it's thirty six times ten. Leave the ten alone we'll bring that back in later. Half of thirty six would be eighteen. So half of three sixty could be eighteen times ten. Half of eighteen is nine so half of one eighty would be nine times ten so ninety degrees is a quarter of a turn a quarter of the way round. And er look at, look at these again In school we didn't really do the actual pie charts but we used compasses. Yeah. To measure angles. We had all different kinds of One of these to make an angle? Yeah. Yeah that's a protractor. Protractor that's it. Protrac have you seen one of those, have you used one? Yeah. Yeah. Right that's for measuring angles so we could measure these angles before we s before we start on the money Yeah. where it all goes to. Perhaps we could just have a look at what sort of angles we've got here. So let's say that that represented your, your three pound sixty, the complete circle. And you spent quite a bit of it, that, say on sweets. Okay so you could draw that and you'd draw the same angle and we could measure that angle see what it is. Well what fraction is that? A third. Third. So what angle, anyone, Claire have a guess at what angle that will be or how would wor how would you work out what angle that is? How did we work out what a half was? It's erm divide thirty six by three and then Right so we divide thirty six by three and what does that come to? Tw Twel twelve. Twelve. So three hundred And you times that by ten. So that would be? One hundred and twenty. One hundred and twenty. So a third of this should be a hundred and twenty and we just measure that and see. Yes it does come to a hundred and twenty well that's good. I'd be looking a bit daft if it didn't . A quarter should be ninety. Well that's the angle on the Ninety. square or a rectangle isn't it that's ninety degrees no need to check that really we can see that's ninety. It's ninety. What about this one? What fraction is that? A sixth. Sixth. And what angle will it be? How will we work out the angle? Sixty? Sixty yeah Right good sixty. How did you do it? Divide thirty six by six is six and times it by ten. Right so that's sixty and what's this fraction? A twelfth. Twelfth. And what will that be? Mm a twelfth. What, what, what angle will it be? A twelfth. So how many twelves in thirty six? Three. Three. So that's going to be three times ten that'll be? Thirty. Thirty. Thirty degrees. We'll just check that see if it's right. Yeah that's fine. Okay you have to get the point just on Yeah. the hole there. Measure that and have a look and it comes just on the thirty. Yeah. Okay. So we could do thirds, sixth, quarter, twelfth, we could do a half. What would a half be again? What angle would a half be? Half of three sixty. One eighty. Okay one eighty. Right so let's decide how we're going to spend, what I'd like you to do, erm what sort of things do you spend your pocket money on? Sweets. Sweets. Is that what you spend most of it on probably? Yeah. Yeah. Okay so sweets. What else do you spend your pocket money on? Sometimes if I see little, a little or little toys for my brothers So presents okay presents for other people. Anything else? Anything else you spend your money on? Save it up. Save it okay so saving is some of it and anything else? like little rubbers Okay the rubbers. Stationery. Stationery good word. How do you spell stationery? Can you both write that down. When it means pens and pencils and papers and rubbers and Okay now what have you got there? I don't think that's right. Why don't you think that's right? Mm, what do you think Kelly? Do you think that looks right? No. No. Okay what do you think about Claire what do you think of Kelly's does that look better? Yeah. Can you both spell station? Okay that's station. do you want to swap back ? You can both write station. There are lots of words are built up from other words aren't they? Station and now underneath that write stationery. That's it. That's fine now that's how you spell stationary if something's not moving okay. The wheels were stationary. With an A. It's not moving but when it's papers and pencils and stuff like that Is it E? Exactly yeah it's stationery with an E. So write that one and then later on when I've gone if you can make up some sentences with stationary and stationery. We both just say stationary so you can't tell by the sound of it how you spell it? If you could make up a sentence with those. So stationery is one of the things so we've got erm what else might you spend money on? Okay so I, what I'd like you to do now is both write down if you had three pound sixty a week, how much would you spend on sweets, on presents, on stationery and how much would save I'd save most of mine. So both write down you'd save most of it. What half of it or more than half or? Half of it Okay. Well write, write down how much you'd save and how much you'd spend on sweets, how much you'd spend on presents, how much on stationery. Spend on sweets So how much would you spend on sweets? One pound on sweets okay. I spend sixty pence on sweets. Sixty pence on sweets okay and say say what you're spending that on, on sweets okay. And what about presents and stationery? Both make your own mind up what you'd want to do. And how much would you spend on presents? Mm? You wouldn't spend any. Okay that's fine you put presents none. Does it have to be a exact amount Just what you what you think you'd on presents presents Okay. But if I'm up at the shop and I see a little card or something Okay. About a pound. Okay. And would you spend anything on stationery? Yeah. Okay and have you added yours up? Just put total, good, that's good. stationery right. So if you'd like to add them up now see what you've got. Is that one pound? Yeah. Mm. So adds up very nicely to three sixty and Kelly spent more than she had. So you've got to, you'll have to change something won't you? Ninety pence Okay ninety pence yeah that's a good one. So ninety, ninety pence on the, on the presents there. change that one there. So we'll draw a pie chart now which one shall we do first? Whose shall we do first? Claire's Okay we'll do Claire's first. The first thing we need it as a circle. Mark the centre of it go all the way round with that. Now what fraction are you s are you going to save? S save a half of it. Yeah so it's a hundred and eighty degrees. A hundred and eighty out of three hundred and sixty you could save a half of it. Well that's no problem. Could you d would you like to draw Would you like to draw half? Okay. Just write save? Write save in there. Now what's your next thing that you're going to do? Sweets. Sweets one pound so one hundred out of three sixty. So that's a hundred degrees out of three hundred and sixty degrees. Now if you can mark off a hundred degrees. You know how to use the protractor? Yeah. Good. Now where's, where's the hundred? Ah okay what we usually do is make sure it's not upside down. And on this one there's a nought on the inside and a nought on the outside so we work with the nought on the outside and we'll go round that way, clockwise, the way the numbers go. Yeah. Nought ten twenty thirty forty. Okay so we start from nought and go round. So where are we going to, where are you going to put it? Down here say. Do don't be afraid to turn your paper round. So make sure that dot is on the centre there. Is it on the c let's have a look. Let's get that in there. Okay and then you can move it round to line it, is that lined up okay? Yeah Where you are? Yeah. Okay and then on the outside circle there we mark a hundred degrees. Okay and join that one up. And then With this part this bit? Ah well have a guess. Can you remember how much ninety degrees is? Ninety degrees is that nice square angle you found on a A right angle. square or a rectangle. special name for it as Kelly says a right angle, right. So that must be the hundred and that must be the eighty. So that's for sweets and what's this for? Good and you've both spelt it correctly stationery. Okay so that's Claire's chart. That shows, so you can look at that and you can see how she's spending her money. But it doesn't tell you. It just unless you've actually got a protractor. Doesn't doesn't tell you how much Much you spend. No but it's still helpful like that cos you can see, well it looks as if , without measuring it accurately, it looks as if she spends half of it she actually saves half of it. Okay. so it looks as if she saves half of her money and then spends a bit more than a quarter. Out of what's left a bit more than half of what's left goes on sweets and a bit less than half goes on stationery. So even if you didn't have a protractor, I mean if you wanted to be really fussy and find out exactly you could measure it and say, ooh that's actually, it's not eighty that's seventy nine and this is a hundred and one so she spends a pound and a penny on sweets and she saves seventy nine. You don't normally need to get it that accurately do you? You just want a quick glance at it to see what she, oh well half of it's saved and then a bit more than a quarter. is it probability Yes. guess yeah that's it. Guess okay. A bit more than a quarter on sweets and a bit less than a quarter on stationery. And if you wanted to find out exactly you could measure it. Now somewhere on there we should say what the total is because we could look at this and we could say, well she saves erm half of it but does she, how much does she get? Well perhaps she only gets two pence a week pocket money and she saves one penny. Or perhaps she gets two hundred pounds a week pocket money right? Or two million pounds a week pocket money. We don't know so I think lea at least you need the total on. And I know it's not, not saying there's anything wrong with it, just hadn't got round to writing it. So we could say total, total is three pound sixty or something like that. Just write total. Yeah total is three pound sixty. Right so do you want to have a go at doing your one Kelly? Okay. And oh we'll ask your dad what sort of computer he's got. I save about a half of it. Okay Hi. Hello Claire says she's been doing pie charts on your computer. Yes it's only a, it's a Amstrad. Er what sort is it? I B M compatible? No it's not no. It's the original one which was er what was it called? Six One Two Eight Plus. It's, it's only got a three inch disk drive on it. Ah it hasn't got three and a half it's the Amstrad three inch? Yeah. Okay. Are you doing pie charts, what are you doing that on? Right . Because I've got some stuff for I B M compatible that she could play with. I'm looking to upgrade it soon so Mm. hopefully it'll be alright then Don't I mean don't, don't buy it just for this it's just that if you had it handy Yeah. it's a shame not to use it. But er I'm goin I'm gonna upgrade it for business you know. You can't get no software for the Amstrad it's really hard to come by. It is, it is. There is some very cheap stuff about for things like the Fifteen Twelve and Sixteen Forty. Mm the P C Ws then? Erm no the P C rather than the P C the P C W is just a, a dedicated word processor that's all it does. But very good sort of cheap way into computers. We couldn't load save it could we? Okay well she's just working out how she'd spend three pound sixty pocket money Very easily I would think. No she's going to save half of it. Oh yes please er black no sugar before I Right you're a bit stuck. So let's see how, how is it going. What, see what, see if Claire can help. Let's sh explain to Claire what you're doing and Right. I think I'm right but I'm not sure. Well that's the your nought isn't it? Mhm. And then that was right. Right good. And then I needed my ninety pence Right. for my present so Ah okay right. do I go from that nought or that nought? Don't mark the nought on. Now this is, this is very, this is very good, this the reason you're stopping here because have you done bearings? No you probably wouldn't have done but you'll do Yeah I had a homework sheet. Okay we'll have a look at bearings as well while we're doing the, see you can see how fractions, angles and pie charts and bearings and lots of things all come together and if you understand the main part of it then you can, you can learn all the other things by yourself. And when you see them you can think, ah that would be same as what I was doing in that one, and you can work it out for yourselves. So yeah don't, you don't need the nought there but it was good thinking you put it in, putting it in. Erm it's just ninety degrees from here or from there depends on where you want to put it. So you've got one mark there okay? Okay well you could take it from here and take it round that way. But it'd be simpler to keep taking it round clockwise. So So where should I it from? Well if it was me to keep it balanced I usually put the bigger ones near the bottom or on one side so that the small bit are at the top and the big bits are at the bottom and artistically it looks a bit better balanced but it doesn't really matter for the maths where you put it. So shall I keep from there and just do the ninety there? Well you can't do it from there because that would mean you're spending you've got one ninety pence here and you're spending ninety pence of it on one thing and sixty pence of the same money on another thing. So it would have to start from where the last one finished each time. to to ninety ninety to ninety Ninety. ninety from there Okay and then if it all adds up how much should you have left over? Thirty Yeah. Okay. Well that was easy wasn't it eh? No problems there for either of you so let's make it awkward. Now you don't really get three pound sixty do you Claire? How much do you get? A pound but I get A pound so let's say you just get a pound. And let's say erm let's say you get one pound fifty Kelly. I know you don't, don't have a definite pocket money well let's say you get one pound fifty. So so we look at Claire's pound now. What I want you to do is try and work out if you spent the same, not the same amount of money but The same sort of thing. You spent the same Erm same Try and get the same fractions Good the same fraction. So what was happening here you were saving half of it. Right? So I'd save fifty pence yeah. So you'd save fifty pence. And then you'd have fifty hundredths and it's still look like a half. So if you kept these same ratios same fractions even if you got ten pound or a hundred pounds or ten pence it would still look like that. The only thing that would change would be the total at the top. Don't forget to put the total on it. Total the total is Claire. three pound sixty. Yeah? Are you stuck. Oh well you do have to stay out there sorry . Okay. No sugar. That, that's great thanks very much. So that's for total pocket money three hundred and sixty. . Got an have we got another mat? We'll take that mat out of the way So what if you did get a pound, if you did get a pound Claire would you, would you still save half of it or do you think you might save a bit less than half? A bit less. Okay I'd like you to, if, if you work out Kelly one pound fifty. If you, if you had one pound fifty how much you'd spend on these different things. Okay? And Claire if you work out if you had a pound how much you'd spend on each different one just as you did here. I mean you might decide you won't save anything if you only got a pound or you won't buy any presents or you won't buy any sweets. Give up sweets for Lent or something. Make it easy for us. Ah go on. Now can you see the way Claire's setting it out? So that all her figures are going to be all in one column so you can check them easily, you can add them up easily, you can find the total. This is very nice the way you've written it out. You would save fifty pence and then Or you can just yeah you can just use the sort of line you can see through there. Erm you could just, you don't need to write, it's very nice writing you don't need to write it all out now you could put spending and a colon right and then, or I would spend colon Shall I just put a line ? Oh no no leave, leave that erm you could just write sweets and how much would, just keep the figures underneath each other cos it makes it easier to follow. Sweets. Well there's a bit of changing and messing about here to get it just right innit? Right this time you'd save forty P. Erm is that presants ?presents. Prese it's awkward this spelling but it's, it's presents. Okay? Now I'd like you to have a think about them as fractions. Forty pence out of a pound what would that, roughly is it about half or about a quarter or what? About nearly a half. Right so it's a bit less than a half. And what about ten P out of a pound? A tenth. Right. Okay well that looks as if that adds up nicely. Ooh lovely that's lined up. That was strange starting to add up from the centre you don't usually do that. No. Okay that's good that adds up now what sort of fraction, what sort of fraction are you spending on stationery? Fifty pence out of one pound fifty is that about a tenth or about a hundredth or about half or what, what sort of fraction? A third. Do you agree? A half. Fifty pence Fifty pence out of one fifty. A third Yeah you're both happy with a third. Yeah You were thinking fifty pence in a half of a pound. Right I knew I had three fifty pence okay. So that's how much Kelly's got to spend. Three of those and she spends one of them she spends one of them on stationery and she saves one of them. So she's spending a third on stationery, she's saving a third and the other third has got to be split up between Sweets and presents. presents. Erm thirty pence out of a hundred and fifty, any idea of what that would be fraction? mm What do you think? Yeah it's a fifth. How did you work it out? If you're dealing with big numbers it's quite hard isn't it? Okay how do you, how would you do it? Five times three is fifteen times it by ten. Right so the first thing you do if we're dealing with a hundred and fifty. Well that's a bit big that's not in any of my times tables. Let's forget about the Mm. hundred and fifty forget about that nought and just think about the fifteen. When we've worked that out don't forget to put the ten back on multiplying by ten putting the nought on okay? So if I said three out of fifteen. Three shared out between fifteen people is one over five one fifth. Right so how would you like to have a go at drawing your pie chart? Mm? Okay. Now what I want you to do is is to just, just talk about it erm okay fit it on there looks like a good idea. yeah it'll fit on nicely. Oh very good, good, watch that it's very easy to get it the wrong way round. you just think how is she going to do it how would you do it if you were doing Kelly's one? It's usually a good idea to do the biggest ones first get those out of the way. The two fifties. Right. Er two halfs two thirds. Do a third for each of them. Two fifties. Erm do this one in, do this one in pencil. In case I get it wrong? In ca w you don't think she's going to get it wrong do you? So you, do think she's going to get it wrong ooh? Do you think you're going to get it wrong? Go on have a go. I don't know. It doesn't matter whether you get it right or wrong it doesn't come into it really. The two big ones. Okay. Okay Right okay what's this, what's this hundred degrees for? What does it mean? I've spent two fifties. I spent a hundred. Aha. Oh I know what I didn't do. Right what do you think about this then? It's cos you've only got one fifty three pound sixty. Right. If you'd had three pound sixty to spend then fifty would be fifty degrees. Yeah that would be right. Now when I said you were very good at it I said what's fifty as a fraction of one fifty? A third. A third so on here it's got to look like A third. a third. Okay. Right it's got to look like a third. So how are you going to make it look like a third? With your protractor. Okay. Measure your protra measure Okay you could measure a third. But you won't always have these so you could measuring it's a good way. You could do it roughly but we want this accurately. How are we going to do it? Erm if you the circle with the Right. then you could mea see what the erm Go on. Go on you've got the right idea don't be afraid to say it. Mm Well try and explain it, you don't have to get the right words. circle Okay. then you could you could and then you could measure it and see if three of them Right you could see, you could have a guess at it and see if three went round exactly. Yeah I was just I was just trying to do that Okay that's a good guess or as you said Kelly you could just use your, your fraction here as and mark it off cos you know that's a third or you could measure the angle on the fraction and see what it comes to oh yes Go on. Right you could put that centre point there on that and you could draw them. But I but you wouldn't normally have that. They're all really good ways of doing it. But I'd like you to try and calculate it. Is that one third? Did you try one fifty? Good guess. What, what are you trying to do? How are you trying to calculate this? Well do one fifty Mm. my fifty Mm. and then my other fifty. So you did three times fifty? Yeah. Erm that doesn't that doesn't help much. Any ideas Claire how we can sort this out, how we can find out what is exactly one third of the way round this circle? How far is it all the way round the circle? Three hundred and sixty. Three hundred and sixty degrees. Half a How many degrees would it be to go a third of the way round the circle? One hundred and twenty. Right okay. So although this is fifty pence when you show it on here the fir so the first thing we've got to do is change this fifty pence to get away from fifty pence or thirty pence or twenty and change it into a fraction. What fraction of one pound fifty is it? Er A third. A third. So as a fraction you can just write, this is if you just write, that's erm he over here you can put a heading fraction erm you can go back to your pen now . Fraction of total. Right that's okay. Now would you like to do the same for yours, work out what fraction of a total yours are. Okay and then underneath that you'll put your, your forty pence. An so on so fifty pence is fifty over one fifty isn't it? That's what fraction it is. Fifty out of one fifty. fifty over one fifty. And have you done cancelling fractions? No okay. Yeah I think Well what does that come to? Three a third. A third okay. So Equals a third. Erm here, I should have told you, here if you can put fraction of circle. erm let's see fraction of that's fraction of okay fraction of total and then here you can put circle. So fraction of a total is fifty over one fifty. And it's going to be a third of three sixty isn't it? A third times three sixty. Times is the same as of. For the thirty? For the, for the fifty. Still working on this one. Erm yeah see One third of you're going to go one third of the way round. If you go all the way round you go three hundred sixty degrees. Sixty degrees. Alright to go a third of the way round you'll go one third of and we know how to write of. Times. That's it one third of three hundred and sixty. and we can work out what that comes to. And then you can do the same for all the others. Erm do you think it would be an idea if we made a sort of table out of this? Yeah. Yes so this i I mean this is what maths is, is about, you start doing something and then So how we going to lay this out? In an actual table. some columns. Something like this say. Okay. Probably got more columns than I need there. You could normally draw So let's have a look at erm the previous one no we'll look at, we'll look at Kelly's here and if I do something like save so we put here total is one pound fifty. How much are we going to save? How much are you saving? Fifty pence. Fifty pence. Fifty pence and sweets thirty pence Presents. Presents Twenty pence. twenty pence. Stationery fifty pence. Stationery good. Stationery fifty Fif pence well that's quite a bit. Fifty P and there you have the total one fifty. Now fraction of total fraction of total So this is going to come to fifty over one fifty. This'll be thirty Thirty. over one fifty. Twenty over one fifty. And? Fifty over one fifty. Well we worked out that that comes to one third. Thirty over one. ooh that's a hard one this one comes to one third. So that's three fifteenths right? Yeah. Thirty over one fifty will be the same as three over fifteen which comes to? Five. One fifth. Fifth one fifth. One over five one fifth. Are you happy with that one over five? Yeah. One over five. And what will twenty out of one fifty be? Well we can divide the top by ten and the bottom by ten and we'll get two fifteenths. Yes. Can't do any more than that. So fraction of a circle fraction of a circle this is going to be one third times three sixty or we could say number of degrees here, fraction of a circle as number of degrees. So that's a third of three sixty degrees and that's a third of three sixty okay? Going to be a fifth of three sixty. And two fifteenths Fifteenths of three sixty . of three sixty. Okay so let's see, okay things that I bought, right how much and now we need quite a bit sort of across there if we can, if we can get it. So er if you make another one here you can put this as a fraction of the total. Right and then there as a fraction of the circle. And we'll put one down one down yes okay down there. Right so this'll be a fraction of total Okay Do you want me to write it? Erm yeah if you can do one something like that. Have another, have a, have one of these with lines on perhaps. That's, that's okay isn't it? You can, you can write it out again afterwards to make sense of it and you can both get together and write it out and sort of do pretty tables. It's better than my scribble . So something like that. Er now so what fraction of the total, forty out of a pound. So the fraction will be you spend forty pence out of a hundred pence. Are you a bit worried about this? Mm. Well it's dead easy fractions . Don't forget a fraction is the answer to a division and they're saying what's erm forty divided by a hundred right? And we pretend we know the answer all we do is we write the sum out again and we say forty divided by a hundred is forty divided by a hundred. Only now it looks like a fraction. It still means the same thing. Forty divided by a hundred. Good. Stationery fifty pence . Now this one can you make that a er a more useful fraction? If you had ten out of a hundred you can cancel it have you done cancelling? No well if you had ten pounds shared between a hundred of us we'd all get the same amount if we had one pound shared between ten of us. Cos we could put it into lots of ten. Couldn't we, we could put the, we could put the money into lots of ten and we could put the people into lots of ten. So let's say if we had ten pounds on the table and a hundred people underneath. I done it wrong. Erm that's fifty out of one fifty that's right. Yeah but I, I done that one underneath just do a thirty out of one fifty there. Shall I do me fifty ? Let's see keep, keep it on the same line if you can. Can you? Yes that's fine. Fifty over one fifty So we look at this ten pound we're going to put that ten pound on the table we might put a ten pound note or we might say we'll have ten one pound coins. Right ten p ten times one pound and underneath we can tell all the people to get into lots of ten. Don't all just stand together can you make ten lots of ten okay. And then you could say, well you lot of ten there, you group of ten, you can have that one pound. And the other group of ten have another ten pounds, and so you'd get, each group of ten would have one pound shared out between the ten of you. Okay now this isn't a very good example to show you how fractions cancel because we get this ten all over the place. So let's look at one of, let's look at the one that Kelly's working on there where she's got fifty pounds shared out between a hundred and fifty people. Right we'll say oh well they both end in a nought don't they so what number will divide into them. What number would go into fifty and the same number go into a hundred and fifty? Ten. Ten so that fifty we'll write it as five times ten or ten times five doesn't matter let's write it as ten times five. And this one we'll write as ten times fifteen. So what have we done, we've put the money into ten lots of five pound now okay so we got fifty pounds let's say we had it in five pound notes. So we put ten five pound notes round this very big table and then we're saying now you've a hundred and fifty people I don't know how you managed to get into this room. But a hundred and fifty of you can you all get into two groups and there'll be fifteen in each group of you. So this group of fifteen here that's your five pound between you and then we'll go onto the second group of fifteen people and they could have the second five pound and the third and the fourth and so on. Up to the, the tenth group of fifteen people well that's your ten pound that's your five pound the tenth five pound. So they say, oh okay we've sorted this out a bit now each group just has five pound to share out between fifteen of them. That's a bit easier what number will divide into both of these? Five. Five right so we'll put them in five groups of five lots of one pound on the table. We'll change these, this five pound note into pound coins. Five lots of one pound and the people, we'll put them into five sets of there were fifteen of them so we'll make Three. five sets of three. Right okay set number one that's, that's Claire's set three of you share that first pound. Second set Kelly's set you three share that pound. Third one share that, fourth share that. Fifth set the last set you three you group of three people will share that last pound. So now they've got it sorted out to one pound between three of them. And we got to there from starting off with fifty pounds between a hundred and fifty of them which was quite hard to handle but by making it smaller this is called cancelling fraction when you take really we're dividing this side we say, well we've got ten on the top and ten on, ten times five on the top ten times fifteen on the bottom. Well if we put the money into sets, lots of ten and the people into lots of ten we could cancel those tens out and it would just come down to five over fifteen. Okay and then as you saw five'll go into it so we can cancel the fives out and it's just one over three. So how much will they get? They'll get one pound shared between three. And maybe at that point we say, oh oh okay we can't share it out any more it doesn't work out very well. Perhaps we, we all have erm thirty three pence each and we give a penny to Oxfam, or we'll toss up or we'll, thirty three pence each and one penny left over so we'll have a third of that penny each we'll cut it up. Right so have you worked out what those come to? How many degrees it is. You can you can sort of just go over that line and put equals so many degrees. So what would a third of three sixty come to? So you're working out what your fractions are so forty over a hundred is four times ten lots of four over ten lots of ten. Well we can forget about those cos they're in sets of ten. Four tenths okay. Erm how many twos in that well we can think of that as two times two over two times five. We can cancel those twos again. Two fifths. Is that right? Am I doing that right? That's brilliant. Yeah that's great. That's going to be two fifths. How about the ten over a hundred what will that come to? Erm they both end in nought so ten goes into both of them. Right good so you could just So this is ten times one and this is ten times ten we could cancel those out and we get One tenth. one tenth brilliant. So that's one tenth and that's one tenth and then what I'd like you to do is work it out as a fraction what fraction of how many degrees would it be if you had a tenth of three hundred and sixty degrees, how many degrees would that come to? So would it be ten divided by three hundred and sixty? It'd be, it would be one tenth of don't forget that's of, one tenth of three hundred and sixty. so you're just dividing You're dividing it by ten or you're of-ing, times-ing, multiplying it by one tenth, it's the same thing. Multiply it by one tenth or divide it by ten. What is a tenth of three sixty? Right you can cancel it like this you multi can you multiply fractions? So we've got one one over ten times thirty six times ten. We can cancel that ten with that ten and what does it comes to? Thir mm thirty six. It just comes to thirty six good. A fifth of three hundred and sixty. Ooh a fifth is awkward isn't it? How many tenths would there be in a fifth? How many tenths in a fifth? Mm. Share out, share out something between erm ten people okay say share out a pound. How much would we get each? If we shared out, let's say you share out erm ten pence between ten people how much do we get? Two one. Yeah so we get one and the you're going on to the next one. Share it out between five people you get two. Twenty pence. You get two pence. So do I divide that by five and then times it by ten? Excellent. So you're trying to find out one fifth well you just divide it by five it's the easy way to do it. But well it's one way to do it you can use a calculator or you could say what would, could you work out a tenth of three sixty? A tenth of three sixty? Mm what's ten times six? Sixty. Ten times erm nine? Ninety. So ten times something gave us three sixty ten times what? Thirty six. So a tenth of three sixty must be? Thirty six. Thirty six so that was one way of working out a tenth of it but we want a fifth. a fifth would be two tenths. When you get a fifth of something you get twice as much as when you get a tenth. It's probably simpler not to, not to worry about that that's just a quick a bit of a short cut way of doing it. You just divide three sixty by five and see what you get. I know. Good do you remember a long time ago doing factor trees and I gave you three sixty to do? Yeah. Can you see now why it's useful? Why it comes in handy to know all the things that you could multiply together to know three hundred and sixty. Can you remember any of them? Did you do that? No. No. The factors of three hundred and sixty. So let's have a look. Ten times thirty six. Two fifths you get a hundred and forty four. Is that right? Ooh I don't know. Do you want to, do you want to check it on the calculator? So if you multiply a hundred and forty four by By Okay try tr just, just try this one erm divide, divide your three sixty by seventy two let's see what you get. Five five times seventy two by two. Right. A hundred and forty four. Good so they all look, they all look fine. Okay I reckon you can start drawing your one now can't you? Seventy two. Right. Do you want to show you how I done it? Go on. Well I went back up to the first one and I said you need three one hundred and twenties to get to three hundred and sixty so Yes. what do you need five of to get to That's it. three hundred and sixty. Seventy two. What do you need five of. Seventy two. You need ten thirty sixes. So you could cut it up you cut your, your circle up into ten equal pieces, cut your pizza, your pie into ten equal slices and they'd all be thirty six degrees. Then you'd say well here's our pie we're going to share it out between ten people tonight. Oh half of them haven't turned up we're only going to share it between five of us. Well we'll get two pieces two of those thirty six pieces that those one tenth Add the two thirty sixes. Seventy two okay. Right that one you've already done up here haven't you? Yeah. So that one's okay. And don't forget to put your little squi little circle at the top for degrees, seventy two degrees. Good, total one pound. Right off you go. Okay Right now how are you going to do this one, two fifteenths? If I said to you, what's erm what's three quarters of twenty? How would you work it out? Three quarters of twenty? Mhm. twenty. Mm what does three quarters look like? three quarters. It's got a quarters missing. Looks like a So how would you, how would you find three quarters of twenty? Could you find a quarter of twenty? Ten? What's half of twenty? Half of twenty, ten. Right what's a quarter of twenty? Five. Okay what's three quarters? Fifteen. Okay so that's how you, that's how you'd do three quarters you'd say well I could find a quarter of it and then cut it all up into quarters and then I'll take three pieces, three quarters. So how would you find two fifteenths? Well we've just said if Well we've just said We've said find three quarters by finding one quarter first and then you take three times it. So how would you find two fifteenths? What would be the first thing you'd do? one fifteenth. Right so find one fifteenth of that and then three hundred and sixty. So how many fifteens would you get in three hundred and sixty? So one fifteenth of three hundred and sixty is going to be three hundred and sixty and then in front of that you'll want one fifteenth of and this times thing is quite handy when we're multiplying fractions together we'll just get three sixty over fifteen. Okay. Oh that looks good. Have you checked at all the angles? Yeah. Including the last one that just happened. Yeah. Erm now they should both be thirty six do they look, do they look like thirty six? They look pretty good to me. Erm looks a little, just a little bit more. And that one's that one's thirty isn't it? Mm. These two should be the same and these should be a hundred and forty four. Mm. About a hundred and forty five but that's fair enough that's near enough. That's good. Erm if you look at that it looks as if you spend a bit more on presents than stationery. Cos it's a little bit bigger cos it didn't, it didn't work out completely right, you did a hundred and forty five. It's very hard to do just one degree but that's very good that's, that's good enough, that's what people can see. That's great that's good. Yeah yeah erm you could write just outside it here like save and you could say that you save forty pence. Save forty pence underneath or Yeah. Erm ou outside here put forty pence. Right how are you going to do that three hundred and sixty divided by fifteen? Try a bit of cancelling first. Okay three hundred and sixty over, let's, let's do three sixty over fifteen. Can you think of any factors of fifteen? Two numbers that would multiply together to make three. This is getting hard Good, good getting hard this isn't it when you've been having a holiday and you thought you were gonna have a nice play and we're doing all this hard work. Now some factors of three sixty. Well three would be a nice one to have. Will three go into three sixty? Yeah. Okay three whats would make three sixty? Three times what? Three times a hundred and twenty. Three times a hundred and twenty. Okay and then we'll write that again. Erm we could write that as, instead of the hundred and twenty we could have twelve times ten couldn't we? Three times twelve times ten. That makes, that makes three sixty over three times five and then we can cancel. Okay see what we're cancelling. Okay so three times twelve times ten over three times five. Well there's a three on the top so we can just divide by three on the top and that's, how many threes in three? One. One. One. Divide by three on the bottom how many threes in? One. How many fives in five? One. One. How many fives in ten? Two. Two. Two right so on the bottom now we've just got one times one which is one and on the top we've got one times twelve times two what does that come to? is twenty four. Okay twenty four over one what does that mean? It's twenty four shared out between one person, they get the lot. It's not really a fraction it's just twenty four okay. So now you've worked out what one fifteenth is right? One fifteenth equals twenty four degrees. So two fifteenths two times twenty four degrees equals forty eight degrees okay. Now on the angle that you did there the degrees can you add those up and just before you start drawing it you should always add them up and make sure they all come to three sixty cos if it comes to four hundred it's going to go right round and a bit further than once round. If it comes to less than three hundred and sixty you're gonna have a little bit left over that you didn't spend on at all. So it's a good thing to check. If you'd like to add yours up try them in your head if you have trouble then you can use the calculator. Try them in my head Okay good. Right good and you should always check that before you draw it just in case your pie chart comes out and put, put that up in the air a bit I'll just show you that, those are good there, but up in the air like that Mm. . Quite small and up there cos otherwise you're go it's going to look a bit like three thousand six hundred isn't it? Looks like another nought as you say. Okay looks great. So now you're ready to draw your . Okay so a hundred and twenty. What do you think about this? Do you think it's quite hard? There's quite a lot to it isn't there? A lot of things going to here. Shall I do it on that piece of paper so I don't get mixed up on No no don't, well it doesn't matter, anywhere you like. Here do it on, do it on that one that's good so you keep it together. What you could do with is labelling these so that, which one of them is the first question, sort of pie chart A if you like then pie chart, pie chart A and again if you've got the total on, on your pie chart then you, you won't get confused will you? What do you think of it? Do you think it's pretty hard? I don't. There's a lot in it, there's, a but it's a good exercise because if you can do all these different bits Right. then you can do almost anything in maths. Erm and you could start making up your own and playing with them on the computer. and you'll you know it does it itself you just, you, with the computer you just say well I had four pounds and I spent a pound on that and two pound on this thirty pence on that and it goes pow does it by magic. it do what it's doing pie charts and graphs and bar charts and graphs it's doing all this. It's got some arithmetic in the program that works out all the angles and then it draws them. That looks good. And you don't need to mark the one twenty on I mean you can do if you like. Erm you could perhaps put erm one side here what the one twenty comes to, it was, how much erm fifty pence. and don't forget to mark on it what that was, that was save. Shall I put like Mm no that's okay and somewhere what the total was. Well the total is always three sixty all the way round but was this when you had a million pound pocket money or when you only got four pence a week. So you have sort of When I got one total one fifty. Okay good now this is probably the first real go at doing pie charts that you've had isn't it? The other ones you've been doing have been pretty easy. Well that's, that's fine you've got to start with the easy ones and at your age you wouldn't, you wouldn't normally be doing them this hard at all, this is for sixteen year olds who are doing their, their plot paper on G C S E maths so you expect to find, oh hang on this is a bit hard there's a bit of work in this, but I think you're capable of doing it. You, you might think, ooh I don't really know what I'm doing at the moment er perhaps I couldn't do it on my own. But if you practise it you will be able to. You'll be able to do these on your own. did you say move your nought to there then do your You're going to, you're going to measure an angle now of another, how much do you want to do? I'm doing my seventy two. Seventy two so you'll start from, that bit's, that's gone now if you like if somebody came along and they cut out that piece of cake. So you put them So you as you say put your nought there you've got to start from where you finished off last time and carry round again. And would you two like, do you think you'd like to work through these again together doi just doing the same ones Yeah. to see and talk about it between the two of you and see how you got on with it. Now it's quite likely that next time I come we can spend quite a bit of time doing this same thing again yeah cos there's a lot in it there's angles using a protractor adding things up to check they come to the total that the angles come to three sixty and there's this thing about fractions there's cancelling fractions and then there's working with quite big numbers three hundred and sixty what's two fifteenths of three hundred and sixty mm that's quite hard. A lot in it er but you can learn a lot from it and eventually you'll be able to do any sort of these pie charts, if somebody says well you've got four pound eighty to spend, and somebody spends three quarters on this and a tenths on that, two fifteenths on something else and you can add them all up and do a nice chart. What do you think of it? Do you think it's hard? Yeah. Yeah it is hard, it's hard and and i when, when Kelly's done this one we'll have a little bit of a break okay? And you might both like to talk to each other now about what you found easy what you found hard because Kelly found some bits hard, you thought oh it's obvious, didn't you? You found some bits hard and Kelly thought ooh that's obvious. Okay it's easy if you know how to do it, it is obvious when you know how to do it but if you don't know how to do it it's not that easy and it's definitely not obvious. I'm stuck . Right are you stuck? What have you got here then? It's supposed to go like Right no no you've got a one twenty and a on a one twenty and a one twenty and then you've got a forty eight, forty eight and a seventy two. That looks right. How m and this is wha you worked all the way round now how much have you got left over? You should have this one twenty left over so just check that and make sure that you have cos if you haven't something's gone wrong and you have to start again but you Yeah. absolutely spot on. Well I lo I I looked at the fifty and then And you thought, ooh it's going to be fifty degrees because of because we started off with a very easy number three pound sixty. That was why I chose it. Three hundred and sixty pennies one penny for every degree. Oh this is easy anyone can do this. Right but then we go on to working out fractions, what's two fifteenths of a pound. Oh don't know. So, but three sixty, it's a lovely number cos it's got so many factors. Okay so what I'd like you to do now a little bit of revision which, which way shall we do it first of all no just talk about it both of you what you found easy and what you found hard. What you can both agree on, oh that was easy, or both think ooh that was hard. If I'm, try and tell me the steps that you went through to work out how you were going to draw your pie charts. For the, for the, for the first one where it was just three pound sixty that was pretty easy wasn't it? How did you do that? The three pound sixty It's Do you mean that one? If you save half of it Yeah. it's one pound eighty and it's just gonna be half Well why, why w it's just half okay so that was easy you didn't have to work out how many degrees, it was just a half, it's half way round the circle. It'd be a hundred and eighty degrees. Right now what about this one where it was erm you spent one pound. It'd be, you'd put your nought here Right. and then a hundred. And it was just a hundred degrees? Mm why was it a hundred degrees? Cos it's a penny for each degree. Right because we've picked that three sixty a penny for each degree makes it easy then no problem none of this messing about with fractions and all the cancelling and ooh dear, which is where all the hard part is that's where all the hard work is this doing the fractions. So no real problems with that one? No. Now we go on to the second one. Is that the one we've just been doing? This one you've just been doing now. What did you think of that? It was hard. It was hard wasn't it? No no two ways about it that was really hard. So what was the hardest part about it? Mm. Hardest part. Mine was erm because it's not with the nought on the end so you can just find that number Right. find So once you knew wh how many degrees it was for each slice of the pie in your pie chart no problem to use your protractor and mark off forty eight degrees, a hundred and forty four, seventy two, thirty six You'd have to find Finding s okay so there was a little bit of it was a little bit awkward to get it to the nearest degree there. That was a bit awkward but erm calculating how many degrees it was. It was quite easy. Was it was it quite easy? You both had quite a few once a, well once you know how to do it it's easy. But working out how to do it wasn't that easy was it, it wasn't a very easy thing to do that, no. Erm I think we'll go over the working out, how to work out the fraction so there's two stages really. What fraction of the total is it. Okay and let's say it comes to a third or it comes to two fifteenths. So that's that's not too bad that but that, that's hard enough. And it doesn't stop there because when you've worked that out now you've got to wo you've got this biggish number three sixty, Urgh! Or how, what's a fifteenth of three hundred and sixty? Urgh what's a tenth of three hundred and sixty? Or what's a fifth of it? Or worse still what's three fifths of it? Or two fifteenths? So that's, it's pretty awkward. Erm we'll have a look at that in a minute. Now what I want you to do now I want you to draw a factor tree of three hundred and sixty. Right now. Right now okay. Have you done a factor tree? Three sixty . Can you explain to Claire how to do a factor tree? Should I do it on the back of that? Erm on a new bit of paper you know have some of, have some of these okay have some of those. Just put a little square there. And put three hundred and sixty inside it. Okay now while you're explaining is it all right if I just use your toilet? Yeah erm go to, when you're at the top of the stairs first on the right. Okay And then bring a little line coming down from your right hand side. Hello I'm just coming up to use your loo if it's okay. Done that yet? A bit Yeah. bigger. And then the factor is you've got to find all different things that Yeah. bring a little line coming there into it and I'll make that into a little square. No bring another line coming down like that. That's it. And then put a square onto e the end of that. And put a times in between them. And now put mm now think of something that you could times that adds up to three hundred and sixty. thirty six by ten. Go on put that then. Thirty six times ten. That equals that. Three times twelve. So bring this down From this one cos erm er three times twelve would equal thirty six. It's just like a family tree. Oh ask John say it was ages ago Oh it's ages ago since I done these. Erm we've done one Right so do you understand it all? No. No. No what bits I remember Hasn't Kelly explained it properly? I remember. That's good that's a good start. Okay I'll ex I'll explain to Claire. Now what we do, oh the dog wanted to know all about it. To explain it better I should have done what adds up to thirty six then up to three hundred and sixty shouldn't I? Adds up to? Times. Times, so all you do you can start anywhere you like. Yeah. We pick two factors two numbers that would make you multiply them together and they would make three sixty. And the obvious ones look like thirty six and ten. Now I usually but the small number first, doesn't matter. So erm they're okay so we could have ten times thirty six. Now and then we could do the same with the ten now Yeah then all the things that times ten. So what would make the ten? We put two boxes under the ten What would make ten and put the small one first. Two times five Two times five. Okay good yeah two times five. Two times five and what about the thirty six can you think of two numbers that would make thirty six when you multiply them together? Six times six. Yeah. Okay six times six. Could have had three times twelve it doesn't matter which ones Okay well you put three times twelve that's what you were going to say so, if Claire puts six times six you put three times twelve and I'll put four times nine just to be awkward. There we are we all have different ones but we should all finish up with the same answer. Right so let's see on Kelly's then you've got three times twelve. Can you get any other factors from three apart from one and itself? No No. so that's the, that's the end of that we don't split that box up any more. What about the twelve? What would you split that up into? Okay. So two times six, can you go any further with the two? No. That's it okay that's finished. What about the six? Can you see what Claire's doing? So she's split the twelve up into a two times six. Now what about the six? Should I split the six up? Erm well yours is different so we'll look at yours in a minute. So what happens to your six? It's two times three. Right good. Two times three. Okay it can't go any further with the two or with the three. So let's have a look at Claire's. What's Claire got? So you've got two times five. You can't go a can't s split the five down any more can you or the two so you've finished there. What about the six what c that first six what could you split that up into? Two times three. Right that'll make two times three. Okay and if you bring that one down a little bit then it'll collide with these. Okay. Mm this far. And that six is going to make? Same as this six. Two times three. Two times three okay. And I'll do mine so I had three sixty and I split it as a ten times thirty six and then I had two times five for that ten okay can't go any further there. Now I've got four times nine. Well what can I split this four up, what can I split that up into? Two times two. Okay so I'll make that two times two. Can't go any further with that. And wha can't go any further with that and what about the nine? Could do three times three. Three times three okay and that's that. So we've all finished our trees now I'm going to write out what I've got on mine and I'm going to pick the smallest numbers first. So I've got a two there I'll put a tick on that so I've got two times I've got another two so I always put my smallest ones on the left so I can find them quickly. Another two there another two here. And then I've got some threes. I've got a three another three and that's A four. A five I don't count, I only count the ends when I got to the point where I couldn't go any further. And there was a five there. So who wa who's good at calculating? Me. Me. You do you work that I'll tell you what you work that I'll work my own out. No two times two times two Two times two times two times three times three times three times five and what's that come to? Three hundred and sixty. Okay oh that's a very, so that's all of those multiplied together are, would make three hundred and sixty. Sixty. Now if you'd like to check what Claire has got. Let's see what Claire's got first of all. Erm can we find the smallest. We'll both have a look at this, all have a look at it and find the smallest. Two. Two. So there's a two. Times Okay there's another two if you like to carry Mm two if you'd like to carry on from there Claire. So and just put on each one as you find it. There's a two there's another two. And then three. Right there's another three Then five. and there's a five. Okay so I got, what did I get? Underneath there. Two times two times two times three times three times five. So we've, we've got the same one. And if you like to check yours now just okay. If you like to check your That's two two times John? Mhm. There do I go two then times two? Right so you've got, got a tick on that two and now look for, are there any other twos? Oh God yeah times two Have a look see if you got any other twos. times two And put a tick on each one as you get it so that's one two three okay. times three. Times three. times three Okay see if you can make times five. what other things you could make just by multiplying these together now. Done that. Okay and you we all get the same and it comes to three sixty. Cos mine came to three sixty. So what numbers could you make just by taking just a few of these and Should you should we put brackets You could put brackets round that would be good. So what are we doing? So if you put brackets round say three of those twos what would that, what number would that make? Two times two times two. Six. Now would it? Two times Eight. Eight Eight. okay. Erm and you could put brackets round the three times three see. Just, just round the three times three okay. And then the three times five. And what would that make? Nine. Nine. So you could have, we'd know that eight, if you'd like to check that eight times nine times five Eight times nine times five. that should come to three sixty. Yeah. Okay. Now what I'd like you to do is to look at these numbers this is a bit like erm have you seen Countdown? Carol Vorderman where you have to make numbers? You have to make a total out of the numbers? No okay what you need to do, what I want you to do now is just pick some of these numbers and multiply them together so that you get forty five. Forty five? Mhm. Good thanks. Yes that was very good that's excellent. Cover, it cover it up just in case Kelly's tempted to look over that way. Right now good. Right h how did you do what you did Claire? How did you do it, why did you go for it that way? Because five times three is fifteen and if you times fifteen by three it'll be forty five. Mm but did you know that already? Okay well Claire seemed to go straight for the answer straight, right away. She's not really quite sure why but she knew that was the way and it was, it was the right, was the right things to go for. But that doesn't help if you don't know how to do it? So let's see if we can think of a way of doing it. Could we use a factor tree to find out we're trying to find out which of these when you multiply them together would give you forty five. Would give you forty five? Mm. five in it. So let's get, is that what you did Claire, there's going to be a five in it? Yeah. Forty five is in your five times tables. At first I looked at that nine and then I went five. Right so you spotted that right away. And you got a nine there times a five would make forty five. Well if you don't spot that it's no h it's no help really you can't just think, Oh well I'll just sit there until it comes into my head. So you're gonna have to think of another way. If there'd been a much whenever you get three times three. Well erm I mean I might have said Right if it ends in a five then five is one of its factors. So let's do a little Ah if it ends in ten what could you say about one of its factors? Sorry if it ends in nought . Yes. ten. Ten is one of its factor. But if it ended in, if ten is one of its factors then there's a num another number that must be one of its factors. Five. Five must be a factor and two must be a factor. Right cos they go into ten. So if it ends in a nought or it ends in a five then five goes into it. But we could have dome a little tree for forty five. We could done forty five how are we going to split that up? Well it ends in a five so we know that five goes into it. So we'll have five times and then And then you think what comes down there. work out what is it. Five nines okay. Five nines and then how can we, how can we split the nine up? Three times three. Yeah. Okay. Right now what do we need to make up our forty five? Five times three times three. Have we got that here yes here's a five and a three so we could make forty five. How could you make, how could you make, I'd like you to both have a look at those now and see how you could make, quiet. How, how you could make ninety? Benji. Ninety? Mhm. Ninety. Okay but we want to do it, good that's it but we want to do it by times lots of these numbers times together. You've already worked out, was good cos you've worked out how to make forty five haven't you? So how would you change that forty five into a ninety now? Forty five into your ninety You could do that much, do the three times three times five and that gives you forty five but we're looking for ninety. So what have you got to do to it now to make it into a ninety? That's it times two. So two times three times three times five will give you ninety. Why are we doing all these things? Anyone got any idea why we're looking at all these interesting factors of three hundred and sixty? Well I was just gonna say because all the numbers go into three hundred and sixty. Yeah but why are we so interested in three hundred and sixty? Right because it's a complete circle, a full turn all the way round a hundred percent of your pie chart. Mm. That's the total. Is it time already? Oh it's not far off actually only about five minutes to go. Right okay well while we're interested in Hi. We've g we've got five minutes haven't we? Right cos I know you've got to get off you've got to be there for six have you? Yeah. You're going to be worn out with all this aren't you? Now don't worry abo if you forget all of this by next time. If you've forgotten, if you think you've forgotten you won't really forget it. But it's the sort of thing that we want to go over a few times. Yeah and especially on the fractions and the different types of fractions but you just find o found out what makes ninety haven't you? Two times three times three times five makes ninety so what have you got left over? Two times two. So we could write this as four times ninety. Okay? Four time so if someone says what's a quarter of all the way round you can look at all of these and you can think, well four times ninet four times what would be all the way round? Four times ninety, so a fourth of the way round, a quarter the way round must be? Ninety. Ninety. So how about if you'd both like to find out what a thirtieth of the way round is using the fra the factors there. A thirtieth? Or try, you did a fifteenth earlier didn't you? What would a fifteenth of the way round be? A fifteenth? But I don't look, don't look Seventy two. Okay. Right. Well this is, this is what we'd do. We'd have a look, anyone ideas? Anyone got any ideas? We're trying to come u find fifteenth We'd go on. Find fif find thirty in there. It's fin okay if we're looking for a thirtieth we'd find thirty in there. Right if we were looking for a fifteenth, say we were looking for a fifteenth what would make Times it by two. what would make fifteen out of this lot we've got here? Five times three. Five times three. Right so five times three would make fifteen and what have we got left over? Two times two is four times two is eight times three is twenty four. Okay is that right? Two ti eight, do you want to check that on the calculator? Twenty four times fifteen. Three hundred and sixty. Right so if you get to know if you drew do it through the week don't worry about the pie charts don't worry about the fractions. We'll go over those again. Just play with these what num what numbers would make three sixty? So once you've got all those you can say well four times ninety or two times one eighty okay fifteen times twenty four. And you work all of those out so that you just play with them just get to know them so that you're happy with them. And you could both write something maybe about your grading maybe a little bit about what was good, what was hard, what was easy, what was boring about this cos I think there was a lot of hard work, there wasn't much play in it today was there? A lot of hard work to get you working during the holidays. But erm we'll have a look at it next time and we'll, you know, play with it a bit more and we'll get on with doing some more pie charts okay? Now I think we'd better finish on time so you can go and stand in the, the wet and breathe in get some fresh air into your lungs and get all psyched up ready for your grading. Right and I'll explain to Claire about what I want both of you to do for next week. And Claire can make, you can make some sleeping Claire's gonna sleep in my tent Right okay. Yeah so I'll tell you roughly what I want you to do and you can make a few notes and then you can tell Kelly. So first of all I think Kelly had better get off Okay thank you. and get to her grading. Oh you're welcome, you're welcome. Did you think it was hard? Yeah. It was it was very, it was very sixteen year olds find this hard when they're doing the, the high level stuff but it's no good giving you the easy stuff cos you're both very bright, both very clever and it's no good saying, well what, does anyone know what one add two is is it? No. No. turn that off? No just leave it on it's okay. Thank you. You're very welcome and I hope you do very well at your grading. I'm sure you will. Bye thanks John. Okay bye. Right erm I'll keep those. You're going to need to have a look at fractions a bit but that's just for you. I'm just going to have a look at this cancelling fractions don't worry about that. Cos you're thinking, oh dear this is a bit I'm not sure I could do this on my own. Don't worry cos we'll help you with it. So I'd like you and Claire You mean Kelly. and Kelly as well to talk about what you were doing today. What were the hard bits? What were the easy bits? So the hard bits and the easy bits. The interesting parts, don't s don't worry don't rush I'll, I'll catch up. The interesting parts and the have a guess. And the boring parts okay. And and then I'd like both of you separately to say which bits you'd like to go over again and which bits you'd like us to spend more time doing more and more examples of. Okay so which bits should we spend more time on? Which, I say which bits should we spend more time on which topic which topics should we spend more time on? Topics should we spend more time on? And you I think, oh you want more time on fractions, Kelly might think, well she doesn't she wants more time on doing the degrees. Erm and then what would you like to writ would you like to write about this? About what this lesson was like about? Yeah. Yeah if you write about that and Kelly can write about her grading. Okay but the, you can, you can do what you thought and what Kelly thought in your essay. Okay have you got you haven't got any work to do over the holiday have you? Erm I've got a project You've got a project to do okay just do what you thought. You don't need to put what Kelly thought. Okay. Erm Yes if you've got time do it but don't, with all of, it don't feel you've got to do it, that it's homework and I'm going to get annoyed if you don't do it. It's not like that it's just that I think it'll help you to write it down and to think about it and to talk, talk to Kelly about it. And I'd like you to both spend quite a bit of time just playing with the numbers that make up three sixty. See how many different ways you could make three sixty. You can use your factor tree and then you can combine them in sets and say we're gonna have two times five times three. See what that comes to. And times what would be left over. So now I don't want a factor tree I just want how many different lots of two numbers just two numbers that make three sixty like ten by thirty six or twenty by eighteen all the different things. And then you'll be able to work out a twentieth or an eighteenth or a fiftieth or a quarter. Okay all the different, any two, all the two numbers so that when you multiply them together they make three sixty. So one way we could write it we could sort of use algebra couldn't we? We could say something like, the first number times second number equals three sixty. And you find out how many different numbers could you fit in there? And you could use the calculator if you like try it, try it first with the, all the different ones that you've got out of the factor tree. Most things. Thank you very much. Erm I'll just sort this out. Yes if she's coming out you mean you don't, you don't have to do it all tonight she wan might want to be talking about erm her grading a lot so you can't expect her to do any work until she's got that out of her system she might want to go on for an hour or so. I'll just have a quick word with your dad. Dad! Dad ! Okay Mirror, mirror on the wall who was the fairest of them all, well okay not me and maybe not you either, but it doesn't stop us trying does it? Were looking at the body beautiful and what we do to achieve it, we all arrived in the world with more or less the same package of features, limbs, faces, torso's, since then, all of us I bet have tried to improve or disguise the way we look, what do we do?, why do we do it?, well let's start with a few questions, er, are you, well let me ask you this do you have a beautiful body?, button one for yes, and button two for no pretty straight forward question, okay, thank you very much, dear, dear, eighty five of you said no just as amazingly fifteen of you said yes, in Scotland, I'm impressed. What do you think of that question?, I mean has any body ever actually asked you that question before? No, nobody's ever asked me, but I did say yes, but only because I want to believe it, I don't care if the rest of you don't, but I think its very important that you, you've got the body that your born with and I think its very important just to go on with it and make the best of it. Mm, what do you think of that?, yes Just want to know what is beautiful?, its only in the eye of the beholder, every body sees something different. What w w what, can you define, can you define what beautiful is?, you recognise beauty when you see it? Erm, yes I think so. Maybe I should ask you another question, does, does any one you know have a beautiful body, button one for yes and button two for no?er that's interesting, almost a complete reversal there seventy seven know's somebody with a beautiful body and, and twenty three of you don't. Will the seventy seven who said yes like to say who this is, yes My two year old son I think he's I knew you he's just gorgeous yeah, it and I hope that I can train him to keep it that way mm any one else?, yes Erm, most of the people I know, particularly the one's I like, I look at them and I look at them being beautiful, just because I like them, erm, but I'm aware of also looking at other people and thinking oh that's gross you know really? yes yes I think its a case of the grass being greener on the other side, you know, you never seem to be happy with what you have yourself you always see it in somebody else, gosh I wish I had her hair or her skin or her body shape, you just never seem to be satisfied with what you've got and yet other people see you as looking very attractive mm, mm, mm, mm, yeah. Does it matter, I mean does it matter how you look? Oh yes What a silly question of course it matters how you look up there, yes It, it ought not to matter, but unfortunately I think it does, I think we live in a society where the visual appearance is every thing. Do you think that's changed, I mean do you think a hundred years ago, two hundred years ago, five hundred years ago I think that didn't apply? I think the fashions have definitely changed, you know the mm sixties, Twiggy was a very in, in figure in Vogue er nowadays that would be termed anorexic I would imagined mm, yes I think fashions have changed but I think people's attitude's haven't really changed, people have always been striving to improve their, their appearance, even like in Roman times when they used coal and, and mm Henna for their hair and erm, the men put oil on their bodies to make themselves look better, you know, more attractive to the female's and, so I think erm, we've always strived to improve ourselves our appearances. So its a basic part of being a human animal, yes. But beauty isn't, the say beauty is only skin deep, but what about the million people who live in this country who are dealing with siriasis, for whom, that they'll, they'll live their life with no cure, no prospect of cure and er those are people who we only wish, I'm one of them, er, I also run a self help group in Ayrshire and there are a great many of us who would like to, I think extend a more, more of an understanding to the general public, because its not how we regard ourselves mm. unfortunately its a revulsion by the other members of the public, they think it looks, and we often say we feel like lepers, so Well how do you change that attitude because, I mean it is, it, it, people for whatever reason are are drawn to, to admire and and like people who look conventionally attractive? I agree with what that lady said down there, I think its very much erm an inner confidence mm, mm and how you feel yourself, that's how you present yourself to other people, I think if you present yourself in a confident manner, I think people pick up on that and I do, I don't think beauty is necessarily what you see, I think its how you feel within yourself and how you present yourself to people. Now confidence has manifested in lots and lots of ways and its appealing to that confidence as much as the insecurity, er that makes the advertiser's and the manufacturer's of all manner of products er, their huge profits, now I guess we all spend money on, on various products and er, do you, do you worry about how much you spend on the body beautiful or just the body?, do you or, I mean does any, I wonder if you think you spend too much on it?, let me ask you that, do you spend too much money on your body?, er button one for yes and button two for no. Er, now you see all good Scot's here, ninety one said no that either means your very confident in what you spend, I think you haven't got enough to spend as much as you'd liked to spend or there is no such thing as too much. Why did you say no out of interest?, I mean would you spend more if you had it or are you all well balanced? Yes I would say I would spend more if I had it, I think beauty's a question of money mm money for erm operations, for changing your nose, your ears, whatever really we , we would all spend more if we had it to spend, we would all like to look more beautiful so they, so they and isn't it hoped your buying, hope that you will look more beautiful. up there You don't have to spend a lot of money to look just nice looking I mean d'you know, er just you know nice appearing, clean appearing or something like that that will do and beauty most of it its come from inside. I don't spend any money, I just use soap and water and Boots own cleansing lotion for my mascara and that's it, only buy mascara, eye liner and lipstick and blusher and that's it and it does me six months of the year only the saiga, that's right there yes I can't agree with the lady over there that you know if money were know object we would all go out and get knew noses and mm pinned back ears I wonder if people realize just what a hazardous thing it is, to have plastic surgery. I was forced to have it because I smashed my face up in an accident mm and while I started off thinking I might finish up better than I started mm, mm by the time I had gone through five operations I decided that as long as I could breath, that would do me and I, I would really recommend every body to think twice before having any form of plastic surgery, particularly unless its, if its not absolutely necessary. mm, is there any body here who's had cosmetic plastic surgery, who, who'd wants to or has any views on it, up there, yes. Yes, erm, I had a new face made eleven years ago, and I'm very happy with this face. Wha , what, why, I mean what were the circumstances? I had no bones in the jaw, which meant having to start below the eyes and re-build a whole new face. So from your point of view, despite, presumably you had a number of operations like no I had it all done in one and that which lasted approximately six hours on the table. I think a medical problem different say for instance for myself I got an awful bash on the nose playing badminton and they thought it was broken, however it mended and I wished it had broken because its mended a bit, but I do not believe in spending money on cosmetic surgery because I think if you make the best of what you have and think of all the people were mutilated by disease mm, mm you should be thankful with what you have. I think its the pressure's you see in er magazines at the moment its the, the full lip look, you know, erm, that certain models have sort of erm put in Vogue at the moment and mm, mm I think no mine are too thin, or maybe their not, and, and this, and seeing this in magazines, seeing it on television it make's me think that maybe I could have that mm, mm and if I had the money I could have that mm, mm I could look as good as that yes. I think its very difficult to be yourself these days because you, you see so many magazines with beautiful people in and you think that's how I want to look and its, its a sort of, pressure thing all the time mm and even if you think no I wouldn't really spend the money to make myself more beautiful, you think, oh maybe, if I really, if I did have that money would I do it? mm you know, just to, to keep up with, with the times really. mm, mm Well I work as a psychotherapist and it seems to me that for some people change is impossible and when that is the case then its my job to help them to come to terms with who they are and what they are and how there going to remain, but the other side of it is helping people to change and I have to say usually its to loose weight, that's the biggest reason people want to change. Well I can say personally that I went from a size twelve to a twenty and its a medical problem, its the, not an eating one though, you know any thing to with any diet or any thing like that, completely medical so er it takes a bit of coping with when you've been slim and then all of a sudden you have this weight that, no diet will remove. I recently lost three stone in weight and wondered how else I could improve myself and I was lucky in that I had had a mastectomy for a cancer about seven years ago, so I went ahead and had breast reconstruction. I wouldn't recommend it, it, it was a very traumatic nine hour operation really? mm, mm, its I'm delighted with it yes but I think for people to go and have plastic surgery of that length of time for erm any thing else other than medical reasons mm its a very individual, personal choice I lived in Switzerland for fifteen years and I knew many many people who after having had their children would have breasts implants and, they just felt that they'd got back the figure that they had before the children and particularly one of my friends she had twins and her stomach was so stretched and after her pregnancy she'd got all this sort of sagging skin and what she regretted was that she waited fifteen years before she decided to go and have something done and she just felt so much better about it. Now, what's the difference between Switzerland and Scotland is it, is it that the Swiss have more money?, is it that the Swiss are more body conscious, is it that the Scot's are more puritanical, they think that there are more important things to think about, what do you think? Yes I think that the Scot's are more puritanical and also I, I had three babies, erm I was pregnant out there and I flew back to Scotland to have them and the difference between going to a Swiss gynaecologist and seeing a doctor here was incredible. In Switzerland the gynaecologist would not let you put on too much weight because he was concerned that you'd end up looking like an old cow and because, you come back here and all the Scottish women were vast and they lost their figure's and it was just sort of almost taken for granted that you have a baby and you loose your figure, but you don't mind because you've got the children. yes I must admit I, I really don't agree with that, I mean I find that many women who have had erm children actually their figure has improved after the children, they look a great deal better and I certainly don't think that many women in Scotland looked vast after they've had children, I totally disagree with that. It was interested to hear what this lady said about putting on so much weight mm, mm and twice in the last nine months I've been in the United States and I was amazed at the number of very large women mm but they were all dressed in bright colours and fashionable clothes and obviously thoroughly enjoying themselves, there are very few Jane Fonda's walking about the streets of Washington or New York it seems to me that British manufacturers are missing out on a market that would be welcome by bigger women aha if they would only produce the same styles that they produce for the up to size twelve. Talking about, about image, I mean my body's like a sumo wrestler without my clothes on but that's no problem for me, it used to be a problem but it isn't now because I've worked on building up my confidence in other things so I'm good at quite a lot of things and I always keep re-enforcing that that I'm good at doing these things. We've, we've kind of shied away from the whole thing about image and about fat mm women are not sexy skinny women are not sexy, really skinny women we have to be like the Madonna type woman and I think that the, the, its about money and its about co , its about the consumer and about money and about making money from an image that somebody somewhere has seen as the normal perfect woman and the norm can be any thing it could be whatever you want it to be. I work for a large cosmetic surgery company in England yeah and I think its true that if women did have the money particularly of their own they would spend it on their body's or their faces. What makes you say that? Because surgery does give a lot of women more confidence and men as well. And men, what kind of surgery do men go for? They like their noses done, or their ears done yeah a tremendous amount of surgery is done for men. Okay, down there. Its all this talk about ladies who are fat, what about ladies who are thin who just cannot put on weight mm erm the ladies who are a bit obese and get all the sympathy you get all so skin or just skinny and suddenly you try to put on some weight, you just can't. fifty seven degrees of discontent here, yes Er, after I had my children my whole body sagged and I'd lost a lot of weight and I couldn't put it on and I was really skinny and there was no way I could eat, eat a lot and I still wouldn't put weight on so I started on the weight training and that doesn't cost me money and now I've started putting weight on, so for the skinny kids I think the thing is to do the weight training okay and build yourself up that way. yes. My husband is a minister and an artist and he says that the cannon of the female figure is various and he sees beauty in all types Yes and unless its a real medical problem be content with your figure do you say that as well? er, yes, yes but I would need to, to loose a little weight oh, oh . Who said that?, did you say that or your husband? Oh, no it was myself yeah Well you see that's exactly the problem though yes yes, yes I mean, you know we, we can all be very er, er liberal minded and enlightened about every body else, but when it comes to ourselves with a, and there are some exceptions and, and, and you've identified yourselves here amongst this hundred, but a lot of us if were absolutely honest we would like to change things I mean one way or another and we all do various things, I mean we certainly wash our hair and people say you don't need to wash your hair, if you leave it long enough it'll wash itself, I don't know what else you do maybe you shave bits of this and wax bits of that and and I'm certainly wearing paint tonight, quite a bit of it because its very hot under here and you wouldn't want to see me without it, but that's me saying that, I mean why do I?, why do I?, why are we all wearing make-up?, do we actually think we look better?, are we trying to disguise something?, yes Erm, I pressed yes for having liking my own body, and I do, erm but I also like the slight improvements that I make on it like erm my hair yeah colouring and, but its for myself erm, my husband never ever says to me oh your not wearing make-up or erm when I go to work I don't wear it mm, mm erm because I'm pre-occupied about with what I'm doing mm, mm but if I'm thinking about myself then yes I look and I put on make-up mm, mm and I perhaps then wax my legs or erm, but not to the extreme of having some one else involved in my improvements, I make my own improvements in my body mm, mm er the one's that I choose to make, but I wouldn't go and ask someone to, to help me with it. behind you Its the pressure that er everybody's under to look a certain way and the look tends to have you know lipstick or, and every thing else and that's what's expected of you, so most people do it. but is there any thing wrong with that? That's up to yourself, I personally don't do it at all mm I've not worn make up since I've got married, but even then it was just a wee drop, but, I don't enjoy wearing make up, I feel dirty with it on, but, what ever you want to do, its up to yourself. right, yes Erm, I wear make up as a mask basically gives me confidence and it stops me having to be myself which I feel isn't good enough for the public but then with with your mask on do you feel more like yourself? er, well I'm, I'm a waitress and erm when I'm working I consider the restaurant my stage and I have to be somebody else because I'm worried that you know who I am isn't good enough to entertain these people. I just feel I'm a mother so er all week, and I don't wear make up all week and I don't dress up all week just a jeans and a jumper whereas tonight you knew you were coming some where yeah so's tonight I'm a different person cos I've put make up and I went and got my hair done and I feel different tonight but I don't feel under pressure that I have to wear make up all the time cos nobody treats me any different whether I've got make up on or whether right I haven't got make up on so its not for your man and its not for society and its not for no its not for my husband cos my husband says you look nice whether I've got make up on or whether I haven't got make up on so really it does nee bother me you know. yes Sorry, I run a health spa in Scotland and I see an awful lot of women who obviously come in for some slight improvement but quite frankly it is the stress factor that shows in the face that doesn't make them quite so beautiful because their personalities comes across for when their stressed it shows in their face and I notice when they leave only after a few days the stress has gone and their personality shines through and their far more beautiful. Where was the little girl, or er younger I don't want to make up because, but now I feeling I'm aged it, I should be wearing some make up here, with just a feeling we should be, when I look in the mirror oh its getting old so How do some say just like er that, when was younger don't need them is erm face is perfect I like it yeah Right, okay so its to make you look younger yeah I think so, just there's another unfashionable and incorrect truth were all supposed to look younger than we are, are we?, yes A lot of what has been said about make up has been very negative its to disguise or improve, its also an expression of er inner identity and its not something that's new to the twentieth century, its something that we've been doing you know since the beginning of time with war paint and what not. I think that its, its often what's inside that comes out and what we wear and, and make up and I think perhaps its men who have the restriction of not being able to do that, they are not perhaps getting the opportunity to express their inner self. I work in a very male dominated field and the amount what's that? what what isn't? what isn't? I work in the Local Government but I work in economical development which is predominantly male, its building construction, surveys, architects mm, mm my make up and the way I dress reflects the meetings I'm going to. If I'm going to a meeting where I know I'm going to be the only woman I put my war paint on, if I'm just going to be in the office all day I slob around in a skirt and a jumper with very little make up. You know, I'd like to ask a question, why is it so, why is it so frightening to spoil yourself?, why is it such a, a wrong thing to spoil yourself, erm we've been talking about make up we've been talking about mm beauty products, if you want to spend fifty pence or a pound on something and, and you know from your high street chemist or your going to spend seventy pounds on the same sort of cream, that's up to you if you, if it makes you feel good, go for it. if you want to spend seven thousand pounds on that's right, if it makes you feel good inside I think you should go for it. yes Pretty much on what the lady's saying, surely if you get up in the morning and you look in the mirror and you don't like what you see and you apply some make up and you feel better, or you hate your nose so you have it, you know altered, surely if it makes you feel good then why not?, if you've got the money and its not harming any one then go for it. I think there's a more serious thing that we haven't actually touched on which is that many people feel that they are discriminated against when they go for certain posts mm, mm and jobs because of the way they look particularly if they happen to be slightly over weight or very over weight and I mean that is something we haven't really looked at, but I mean is it effecting people quite seriously? mm, I think maybe at the start though when I said do you have a beautiful body, maybe I asked the wrong questions, let me ask you this question at the end, do you like your body?, er button one for yes and button two for no, and maybe we'll get a different answer then, eighty five people said no they didn't have a beautiful body, but fifty six people here say yes they like their body, forty four is too many people who don't, why not?, who said no?, why, why don't you?, yes The bulges are in the wrong places says who? I do, because its not for vainty's sake, I do feel at times going upstairs or yeah exerting, that I carry too much weight and I know that and its like the lady said its not the chocolate biscuits but it is erm self erm you can't get the self discipline that's right some how, up there, yes I think its because erm I don't, I'm not happy with mine because it it shows signs of ageing and it reminds me that I'm getting older and I don't like that yeah, any other, yes I know my body bulge is in the wrong places and I know I have signs of ageing, I was reminded even this morning by a close friend about my grey hairs, which I don't give too hoops about some friend some friend but I'm happy with my body because my husband loves it and my children cuddle it and I feel great about it. yes I should say that you should think, well those of us that are healthy any way, we should be glad that our body's have stood us this length of time and have allowed us to come here to this programme and to take part in it, I'm certainly delighted that mine's a, gave me three children, nothing to complain about. mm, mm I just find it very difficult to understand paying over two thousand for, er to have your tummy bulge removed. I can't see how any body can justify spending two thousand pounds on, on getting a bit of fat removed some I think that's rather, that's, that's a cheap deal I think isn't it two thousand pounds? Surely its relative, I mean two thousand pounds to you might be quite a lot of money, but to someone else, its, its not a big deal. Oh I think a fact, I think its a fact two thousand pounds is a lot of money even to some body that's relative, you know yes, but who can afford it? there's people in the States who have this sort of thing done and its not, its not a problem but were Scottish women and I think to a Scottish woman two thousand pounds, I, I mean I know a lot of Scottish women not all Scottish women well perhaps you know we'll be able to find out for oursel , if a hundred Scottish women with two thousand seem like a lot of money. But it depends what your buying for your two thousand pounds, if your buying happiness and your content with yourself then its surely money well spent well I, I put it its not guaranteed I put it to this hundred, would you spend two thousand pounds on having a tummy tuck if your tummy needing tucking?, I mean I know some of the, some of the more slender women, I won't say skinny here, what, aren't in need of a tummy tuck, but well there's you as a twenty two Scottish women would spend two thousand pounds, what do you think of that? Their mad Their mad yes I just go to bed at night and hope for a miracle that I'll get up in the morning well maybe you'll get it and I'll be slim again yes, yes, go on. I know many Scottish women who will spend more than two thousand pounds going on a skiing holiday abroad and the risk is far greater than submitting to surgery. Let me ask you this final question. People have talked a bit about their children and er and, and how beautiful they are, supposing you were a fairy god mother and you were at a christening and you had a wand and you could endow one gift, would it be beauty?, is beauty the most important gift?, button one for yes and button two for no and I'd love to go round the world and ask this question, but out of one hundred Scottish women seven of you say yes, but ninety three of you think there is a more important gift than beauty and what that might be we shall talk about another time, but for all thank you now, thank you for watching, good bye British pits are the safest in the world, but in the future could that record be under threat? Tonight on Public Eye evidence that vital monitoring equipment has been sabotaged by men who were under pressure to keep up productivity. In the fight to make our pits competitive, is the cost of coal the safety of miners? Bilsthorpe colliery, scene of the worst pit accident in Britain for more than a decade. Three men were crushed to death under seven thousand tonnes of rock. David the under manager had died, a hero trying to warn his colleagues. He left a pregnant wife and shattered family. She's so young, she's twenty one, she's got a bairn on the way, eighth month, they had everything to live for, everything. Just snatched away, snatched away. I was always worried when he went to work, but y you don't think your husband's going to go to work in the morning at five o'clock and never come home again. In all six men had been trapped by the fall. Rescuers worked through tonnes of rock for more than twelve hours to free the miners. The conditions were appalling. As you went in to the head end where the roof bolts were still intact, it was hard to imagine that approximately forty six metre, fifty metre of gate had just come in one go. Erm, I've never seen anything like it in my life. I hope I never do again. If you can imagine your front room full of concrete, erm, one minute your sat there watching the telly, the next minute your front room's full of concrete, that is just what it was like. The the gate itself, the driveage was totally obliterated. There was nothing left. Like two other pits in Nottinghamshire, this driveage was cut skin to skin or immediately next to old workings. Roof bolts were the only support. A special exemption certificate was issued to allow them. The mines inspectorate later cleared them of the cause, usually though they're used where there are thick coal walls or pillars. Skin to skin can be more cost efficient because the pillars themselves are extracted. Normally the roof bolted sections would rest on coal pillars sometimes fifty metres wide. But here the health and safety executive had granted the exemption to allow roof bolts right next to the old working. For over four hundred metres there was nothing separating the new driveage from the caved in section apart from some wooden props. There was a huge movement of rock above the old coal face when the roof came in. A lot of the men are very suspicious about the roof bolting system, how easily the certificates have been given. Erm now the th H S C is saying that erm it shouldn't have gone skin to skin and they've stopped skin to skin in other headings. Maybe they should have had foresight and er this wouldn't have happened at Bilsthorpe. But they've cleared roof bolts as a cause. Well they've got to clear roof bolts. They are the way forward now for the British mining industry erm they've been coming in very steadily and now they are at virtually every pit in the country. Erm it is the only way, they've told us, we can get our cost down to compete with the world market. The mines inspectorate have admitted to Public Eye, the roof bolting method next to old workings underground made Bilsthorpe a different case from normal, but they stress the system was carefully examined before it was allowed. To some mining experts it's also a clear sign that exemptions are being given too easily. One inspector, now retired, believes the Bilsthorpe exemption should never have been granted. Chris thinks roof bolts should only be allowed where the section's are supported by thick coal pillars. The idea of a roadway supported on either side by a coal pillar and supported in the er in the beam of the roof er by er roof bolts making that beam stronger, so that the sides will support the beam, is a good one. And in the right circumstances er it need not be be criticized, but the circumstances have to be right for it. There has to be good coal pillar support on either side and there has to be a competent roof. Those were not the circumstances at Bilsthorpe, but the mines inspectorate insist they were right to allow the roof bolting in the tunnel, or narrow driveage that's despite the fact that on one side instead of a good coal pillar, only wooden props supported the roof. Narrow driveage doesn't necessarily mean then that there are coal pillars either side. Narrow driveage means what it says, a narrow driveage Does it mean that It means it's not wide. Does it mean that there would ordinarily be coal pillars either side. No it means that it isn't a wide driveage it means it's a narrow one. In most cases it would have pillars either side. Coal pillars? Yes. But not in this case at Bilsthorpe. Does that not return then to our point that exemptions are being granted more freely? Well they are not being granted more freely,th when a an an exemption is granted, the inspector, the inspector, who grants the exemption has got to say that he is satisfied that the health and safety of the workforce will not be jeopardized. Nobody, I will suggest to you Mr Parry, nobody will say that unless he is convinced that er what he is doing is correct, nobody. For miners today the productivity push has changed the face of the industry. If one pit had a bad patch another pit would cover it,th them days have gone now it's er one pit against another. They want production now. The more production the better it is for them and better to sell the pits off. At the end of the day it's money. It's production and money. Safety is coming second. British coal deny that. They decline to be interviewed but in a statement to us said, this year, productivity has increased while the accident rate has fallen. Yet at Bilsthorpe, British coal's critics believe productivity pressure believe played a crucial part. But we can disclose another longer term threat to the health of miners, which is also blamed on the push for productivity. It's a threat which puts miners at greater risk of contracting crippling lung diseases. After forty years underground, Len is a tragic result of old style mining in conditions thick with coal dust. I'm short of breath, I ain't got no energy, listless, I can't walk twenty paces without a rest, so . There's not much they can do, there's no there's no new chests in the hospital to give out, nor an extension to life, so all I can do is try and cope. For Britain's three quarters of a million miners in the nineteen thirties and forties, dust was a massive problem. But by the sixties, after extensive research, the deadly disease was finally brought under control. This was achieved by using er dust measuring apparatus, that was safe down a mine, didn't cause explosions. And er that er was placed in a certain particular position in relation to the coal face, so that it was er a standard method of measuring the concentration of dust in the atmosphere where the men worked. So dust samplers have been instrumental in bringing pneumoconiosis under control. That's right and the understanding of what was necessary. These vital machines are used at coal faces and driveways. Dust is drawn in through vents and collected in filters. The filter is analyzed by the pit and regular check samples are analyzed at independent laboratories. If the samples are above certain limits, the district underground can be shut down. But we have evidence that these gravimetric machines have been sabotaged in some of Britain's pits, so they give false low readings. The Selby coal field is the jewel in the crown of British coal. Coming on stream through the eighties, they've achieved their target producing ten million tonnes of coal a year. There are five pits in the complex taking coal to a central depot. The Whitemoor pit was one of the first three mines in Britain to reach a production figure of one million tonnes per year. Gary has been a pit deputy at Whitemoor for four years. Last summer on a routine check of his district, he noticed something wrong with one dust sampler. I grabbed hold of the gravimetric to turn it round to look for the the switch which is on other side. I noticed the filters were sm smeared and it's like a smear on the filter, so I had a close inspection, found that they were all actually clogged up with what appeared to be superglue. So, what was going through your mind when you found this sampler with glued up vents? I I couldn't believe it really I w Who would do such a You know, why? And er I were mad as well because somebody was somebody were falsifying records and Well my lungs and my life and the mens life as well. Other samplers were found here where readings for correct working conditions were impossible to gauge. It was discovered they too had been sabotaged. This time by the insertion of a thick filter inside the machine itself. We had to remove the baffle plate and in there was a piece of gauze, that's the inside cloth, cut to size so it fit in nice. It wasn't until you actually turned the machine and and actually stared in to the slots that you could see the gauze. So if if nobody was looking for it or if they weren't used to the machines, examining the machines, they wouldn't know it was there. And what would be the effect of that gauze? That gauze would prevent I'd say ninety nine percent of any dust going through it. We've examined British coals own figures for dust sampling in Britain's mines. In driveages the routine samples taken by the pit are lower in every single case than the samples taken and checked by independent laboratories used by British coal. In the case of the Selby complex, the independent statistics are more than two and a half times higher. British coal in response said they've led the world in dust monitoring and any irregularities in samples are immediately investigated. We spoke to one miner who admitted tampering with samplers in another pit to Whitemoor. We've protected his identity because he fears the sack for speaking out. Any method is used that could stop dust getting in to them. Using small bits of foam or anything that would stop it getting in there. To my knowledge I know that it's happening in at least half a dozen mines. It's being done up and down the country as well as round our vicinity of mining. I've talked to other men who've fiddled samples, you have to go to course about laws, rules, regulations to do with dust and once lads got talking it comes out how it's happening. For experts who've spent a career bringing pneumoconiosis under control, these revelations are deeply disturbing. It's a clear breech of regulations and reverses work done on health and safety underground. This of course is a very serious matter. Er if your safety in your mines, from the point of view of the miners health, is dependent upon keeping below a certain limit of dust exposure. If your not measuring the dust exposure levels correctly then er you're likely to expose the men to dangerous conditions. Miners know the pressure is on to increase the British Coal's competitiveness and save their jobs. But the sanctions imposed on a pit with high dust readings could be serious. The mine district could be shut down for three months. Basically we were told to do it, and if we didn't do it we'd got us money dropped. We had threats of being moved or we were sacked. If a driveage your main driveage is found to be above the legal limit after a series of checks, in theory it should be shut until it's sorted out. But it never is. I've never yet known a coal face or a driveway closed because of too much dust. Work is always just carried on with the dust samples fiddled. It's all down to pressure to keep production going and also if you do everyone perfectly rightly you run the risk of closing the mine, or putting six or seven hundred men on the dole. Unless I know about it there's nothing I can do about it is there? Well now you know about it Mr , what do you intend to do ? Well, well when you tell me where it is I'll do something about it. What might you do? Well where is it? It's in Yorkshire. It's in the the Selby group. Right, I shall take it up with the area director in n in ne Yorkshire as we would normally do. In fact I think this has actually been dealt with if I'm er It's it's been dealt with in Whitemoor, you know about that but also in another pit. Well we I would be more surprised that er er in fact I don't think I'm sure that it's not happening on a on a on a er wide basis. I think that's it's a liberty that shouldn't be taken that they're playing with miners health and their lives. And anything that's not on the up and up is, well I think it's detrimental to a mans life. Not only to his health but is to his life and I mean er cutting his life time short, my opinion. Len 's mining area the Rhondda now has no pits, when once it gave work to a hundred thousand men. Throughout the industry now, the cut throat competition is keener than ever. With last weeks announcement that thirty one British pits are again facing closure. Last year the government brought American Mining consultants Boyds, in to areas like South Wales where they met fierce local hostility. The valleys will have nobody working at all, there'll be no one paying insurances, no income tax, so where is the money going to come for future pensions for people right through the country. Where's the common sense of the government? And I do hope that they will change their mind and bring work to the valleys. I I really can't answer your question mam You can't answer me. Crucial to the Boyds' plan was the introduction of more American mining techniques to boost production and bring down costs. In evidence to a common select committee the consultants stressed the importance of newer, cost efficient, methods. Exemptions from safety laws to use them was encouraged. As far as roof bolting and er the er length of advance without supports, current legislation's very restrictive, I think it has to be opened upwards demonstrated by scientific evidence to be successful. To allow you to take full cuts with the continuous mines. One of the key techniques that Boyds wanted to encourage was deep cut or, as it's known in the U S, extended cut. Deep cut means cutting further without any support at all, making it a faster more cost effective way of mining. Now in Britain, mine inspectors have started granting exemptions for cutting up to six point six metres without support. But in America where the extended cut method of mining is taken further, their underground accident record per man shift is four times ours. It's twelve thirty I'm with news. The strike at the coal mine in Sullivan county drags on and on. Two hundred four days today, no end in sight. In Indiana seven hundred miners are on strike. They want safer conditions below ground. Deep or extended cut accounts for half of all deaths and roof collapses in American mines. For the company it means grater profits, but to these men it means more dangerous conditions. The main thing here concerning is extended cuts with the coal operators is er the buzz word of the coal industry, competitiveness, we have to have extended cuts in order to be competitive. And right now the term competitiveness is used to basically get by safety regulations and anything else concerning safety. At this mine two years ago a man was buried and later died after a massive roof fall in an extended cut section. When we got there one o one of the other boys was was already there with him and he was covered from about his waist down with coal and er we uncovered him and gave him as comfortable as we could get him until we got the stretchers and everything mobilize him and get him out. The miner Joe had always kept details about the underground conditions hidden from his family. He wouldn't tell me what was going on down there because he didn't want to worry me as far as the safety conditions at that particular mine. Erm, and when they did complain to somebody, like a company man you know well that's all the farther it went. There was nothing done to correct it. The shock o of losing someone you've been married to for twenty one years, we grew up together, he was my best friend, he wasn't just my husband he was my best friend. You lose all of that. You can't get it back, no matter what else happens in your life that that part is gone, so a part of your life dies along with his. The fatality involving Joe was an example of what we consider as one of the most dangerous aspects of extended cuts. That when you expose great portions of the roof, unsupported, then you increase the possibilities of a roof fall which comes back on through to the supported area of the roof and then injures or kills someone. British mines operate at far greater depth than in America. Extending their techniques in our conditions have prompted fears among some mining experts. If you use techniques which are in inappropriate to those conditions then you could compromise safety because of the stability of the mine working. And what about the American safety record, is is it very different to to that over here? Yes, the American safety record is worse than ours. They tend to have far more accidents er in their mines than we do here in the United Kingdom. But the Americans are coming and it's causing great alarm in some circles. For union leaders such as Peter of the pit deputies, cost efficient techniques like deep cut, threaten the safety of men working underground. They push very much the deep cut system in the U K. Deep cut system in in America means that the machine goes forward a distance before any supports are set at all erm and then the supports do set roof falls. We did not object this without evidence of reasons for objection and we've been in disc discussion with the erm American miners. Eighteen percent of their mines have this so called deep cut system, but has more than fifty percent of all the fatal accidents in those eighteen percent of the mines. The same eighteen percent of mines which has deep cut has sixty three percent of all frictional ignitions. That's ignitions of methane gas. Now for us that causes concern because we have gas in mines, we don't recon recognize the Americans as having gas in mines. We do, so that's the sort of concerns we have. And how do you know for a fact that they intend to bring these sorts of techniques in to Britain? They're in. No, they're in. We have mines working six point six metres now. One of those mines in North Wales was singled out for praise by American consultants Boyds. Yet within a few months of starting the technique here two men were badly injured in a roof fall. They'd cut slightly beyond what had been allowed but the report afterwards said the roof would still have come down. Well I got trapped under er under one of the er rocks that f fell down and then managed to get that off me leg and went to give assistance to er the machine-man, the man on the machine which er trapped as well and er realized then that me leg had me leg was broken so took me down the end of the road and managed to get the stone off the lad and the machine and you got carried in to hospital. It worries me because these exemptions as to there for example er where thirty nine square metres of roof was permitted to be without support of any kind. Not a roof bolt, not a prop, not an arch girder, er led to a fall of roof. And I no surprise whatever, absolutely no surprise. If you don't support the roof you can expect it to fall and two men were hurt. Erm I'm not in favour of granting exemptions for large area of unsupported roof. It seems to me, that your inviting a loss of roof control. Now the mining industry faces a fresh set of safety laws. New guidelines are sweeping away some old regulations. In former mining areas like the Rhondda it's bitterly resented. In a century and a half of mining, hundreds of men have died. Some of the lessons learnt from the accidents were enshrined in safety laws which are now to be scrapped. One of those accidents in eighteen fifty six is deep within local folklore and in the minds of people like former miner Ivor . Before the colliery explosion they'd been a fire, in a certain district, twenty yards long. It had been reported by the colliery official and er the colliery manager of the time thought it wasn't even important enough to actually stop men going in to that district to work. And they did go in there. The legislation that came out as a result of that then was absolutely sure, you know that it was copper bottom insurances given given that er legislation would prevent accidents of that nature again. The er deputy goes in to the district and he he gives an insurance er by law that that the district is safe. That district is safe for the men to go into. The explosion wiped out half of the town's male voice choir. What survived was the crucial safety rule banning work before the entire district is checked. Now a suggested code of practice will kill off the old law. I better do a check for gas here. It's the first one of many. Nought point four percent, ah that's in order. Only a few years a go the coal board was proud of the work of the pit deputy. One deputy in each district checked conditions were safe and could stop production if they weren't. Now they're to allow maintenance work while the pre-shift inspection is made and the pit deputies role will be divided up. Suddenly nothing is too trivial to matter. Everything is important. That's how standards are made and kept. In your years as a deputy, have you stopped production because safety was at risk? E yes, I have. Machinery unfit to do I've stopped it for that. Managers haven't been pleased but I've done it. They're never pleased when you stop er anything what concerns safety. They want you to carry on as normal, but I will not do that at all. While ever I've got the power I will stop it, and that's it. And how will that change? It will change dramatically. I won't have the power the power will be taken away from me. With these new legislations I have no power what's so ever to do with the safety. The deputy, the new eyes on eighties. Ah, report by deputy in charge of the district British coal say the new laws and guidelines will strengthen safety requirements underground. But the deputies believe they've been singled out as a obstacle to producing cheaper coal in Britain's pits, in the run up to privatization. You can have profitable mines if you want more fatalities, more accidents and more bad news like Bilsthorpe. Now if you want a coal industry you can have a good coal industry, a profitable one. It's a question of who decides at this point in time with the government that's making the decision that the workers in this country have to accept lower standards in almost anything not just wages and terms of conditions, now safety standards. Let's look at the system, let's look at the record. This inspectorate has been in being three hundred and fifty years. The accident level in this industry has come down consistently, year, by year, by year, every year. Last year were the lowest on record. We have got to go to work with a lot of of of er tension and pressure on us. To get costs down, to turn more coal, to work more hours, when at the end of the day we don't know if we're going to have a job in in one or two years. Erm it seems very demoralizing an and not fair to the people who are trying to work hard in this industry. To to carve out a living. Bilsthorpe itself could now be a casualty of the closure program, on the drive for a competitive mining industry. But the pace of change has seen the introduction of controversial new techniques and men prepared to sabotage equipment underground. The future for Britain's mines has never looked so black, but some believe the future safety of miners is just as threatened. Excuse me. Could I buy erm a biscuit please? You want a biscuit? Do you want a Hob-nob or a Punguin? Oh a Punguin? I'll have a Penguin. Sorry! Alright. I'll have a a Hob-nob please. Oh so you don't want your Punguon! A Punguon. Now there's twenty P, I need eighty P change. Yeah we we kee we kept getting twenty Ps today. Er, there's your Hob-nob. There's your Hob-nob. Merci! It's right down there. Eighty P change. I'll be in the staff room recuperating after a hard morning's work. This is David to show you Fran. Right, I'll put it there so see? Oh yes. He's a I know. Ah ah! You know what happened to him though? He sa he's just discovered everybody's gonna be colouring in so you could see the deterioration in the wi And so he's taken off the and wa wants to do But that. I thought that was a brilliant attempt from a boy who really finds it hard to keep on the line, you know. And look oil Oil! he got he got today nearly. He got O and he got i Oh let us have a look. That's quite a good attempt though isn't it? I would have ta taken the coffee down to erm Right thanks very much. Let me just take a coffee down to er . I've actually spilt in the hole. You haven't had a coffee yet? Get the Yes. They've Was David not very good last ye last year? I mean Oh no. No. No? But I thought when he puts his mind to it he can really try can't he? A big fuminal Animal. No. Animal, yeah. Well you can the A is the wrong way round. A, yeah, yeah. An im mal. I, I mean I can understand. What is the matter with you today? You see thing is, they'll have a go now because Mm. they've got the comics, even if they don't get it right they they're they'll have a go, whereas , this is why, this is why I usually teach with comics. Mm! Because otherwise they're scared to sort of try aren't they? They don't know how to go about things. Really, if you look at it what there is What's the then? Two. It's two no two, a good two wrong. Well that's a dec I mean he isn't any, I mean that's good for him. I wouldn't Mm mm. have even put him at two, you know, so that's brilliant! But that's either right or wrong. Say this is level two, level three spelling right? She's the best at language, but she never used to write anything did she? She No. hated writing stories but she likes reading them. Can't remember. Mm. He is, don't is that tot I mean it's, it's unaided is it? Oh yeah. Totally. Very good. Bloody marvellous! They're not doing very well. They're missing out that. Don't they? Mm. They have to get five er to six very long words with Appeared bored. Oh. I mean, they're quite difficult spellings actually. Mm. Must be a . I can't, da da da. They can't think . And I don't want you to be disappointed next year and get a . Well that's why Could you do us something mummy? What? Tell me, the to those three little ducklings and the duck. Three Yeah. little ducklings? Yeah. Three little ducklings on there and a big duck and one of those ducks in there. One That's right. two, three One and the duck. and the big duck. Right. There's somebody at the door. Hang on, I'm just going downstairs. Tell me who it is. Be careful. Turn that hot water off now please. Thank you. Yes? Hello. Mrs ? Yes. I'm calling on behalf of Barry the Labour candidate. I wonder Yes? if you're are you su supporting, gonna sa be supporting him? Yes, we both are. Ah, I got a note here because obviously somebody knows you. A we whether you er a whether you can help o on the, on polling day at all? Erm I don't think I can cos I'll be at work. Erm, my husband might be able to. Erm, I'll leave a note. Ca could I contact you somewhere? Er, yeah. Erm he might be able to help. Er, maybe I could after five o'clock. You know Yeah, well le just let me have you got somewhere I can write a telephone number on? Yeah, sure. Come in. Erm I'll get us a piece of paper. Right. Right. Mm. There we go. Right. You don't know Elizabeth ? I don't actually. Should I? Oh! Oh! Sorry. She's er yeah I no I don't. I don't know her. The phone number is Right. Okay. So if you could telephone her some time and Right. say whether you co Just say whether we can or we can't. whether you can do anything. Yeah. If you can, she'll tell you where to go, what you can do. Okay. Right you are. Thanks very much then . Bye-bye. What are you doing? Nothing! Dee dee dee dee. Dee dee ee ee oh oh ! Mummy. Yeah? What's that little microphone? Eh? What's that microphone? Just a microphone taking erm ju just I just have it on just to have conversations with people. That's all. Okay? I don't . Might be, later on. Right. Now. Wash your faces please. Hey you! Da da! Right. That's it. Okay. Yeah, I've got to See you later algigator. Oh! Am I allowed to wash my hair? You can, but Keira's got too long a hair. Well I . What? What did you say? I said, well you wash your hair but Keira erm leave yours will you? And Keira what do you do with your cuffs? They're absolutely filthy dirty! Who wants a crumpet? Yeah. Me! Mm. Keira? And me. Well put it Is this burnt? No. I da I want to have one. No it will melt. And in, a, a when daddy Mum! comes down you ask daddy. You have to see so much mummy , ask daddy which is my bouquet I'll have it now. we haven't been to the Put, put quite a lot of er the thing. on. Er We haven't been to it's daddy's under the table. the er Ge go under, under the chair. Oh, what's that? I want a small and I'll put the Pardon? milk on. Mm. The boy dragon Joshua said Wait a minute. to his mother, he sat down he ha he had to Mummy? and then Yeah? can you tell me what time? Did you hear it, erm erm Er er him. No. Where's that . But no But why a we haven't be Well we've had one and two. It's time We're in a hurry now, we've only got we haven't been to the five minutes and I'll have to go. we haven't been and to they met her just now. And because er er ca she needs air. for a lo and now a lot of days. the people I know, we'll have to throw some more over the won't we? with a little extra Yeah. Come on, hurry up you two. And instead of going to get money, cos you don't need money. Money's not behind here. Throw it away I dunno why That's . You can rent money. Because, so and then Can you? you work hard Yeah! for a little Keira. while. Keira. Do you want erm a vitamin tablet? Right. Eat your cornflakes because we've gotta go now! mother. Okay? On Saturday, Joshua's mother headed for the Haven't you done and some writing? she all happy. But to be rather Yeah. busy and all that I think I prefer buying. Some Mm mm. When? Tonight, here. and baby Jenny will have lots of toys bought for her. Instead of just going Now I have Urgh! the actually one all day at car boot sales! Yeah. It's only to get rid of junk though mind. Erm maybe . Isn't it? You're not getting rid of my bike! Hey mum! Yeah. Tea there. I better tell dad. Better remind him. Remind him to do what? Now, put your shoes Tell on please! Oh my God! It's gone dark while he's waiting for us outside. Dad ! It'll have to be dark. Dad ! How do you know that Joshua is ? It's got all the Just finish that page off love. dark and Okay? Joshua, for the baby dro or dragon. Outside the den it was almost Joshua challenges . A emer er Emily. By Josh, but Josh that's a girl's name. I know but she's a Chinese dragon There's your car. and like to have girl's names and rings . May I see him? No, he's too shy. But you want to see him . Here you are Keira. Put that on please. Whose is this orange juice here? Yes? Why not? Well, I'll think about it okay? Another word. Right. Now Mummy I have Miss What's to be done? I have Miss , I got a trip to Magic . Yeah. Erm, so Whose is that that's like that? Mine was already Mine. there. Best of luck Vaughn. Okay. Okay. There you are. I'll open the car. See you later. Alright. I'm coming home at lunchtime. There's milk on the step. Bye-bye. But lunchtime Right. We'll have to get cracking. what d'ya mean lunchtime? Well lunchtime I'm going to go in and pop back to get things. I've locked it, it was unlocked. Right. Can I go in the front? Tie your belt up please. Tie your belt up. Okay. Speedily. Now Oh crash, bang, wallop you're a but both doors were open, you know. Start the car. Ah ! You happy See the co now? can you er zip your zips up please? Keira. Can you zip your zip up? I can't. What do you think you'll be doing at school today? Recorder concert! Oh! Have you got your recorder? In school? No! Er, yes, yes Yeah. yes. Now, what you gonna be playing? Joe Joe stubbed his toe. Joe Joe stubbed his toe and Indian Warrior. Oh! Big chief, Indian warrior, warrior, warrior. Big chief, Indian warrior. High ho! High ho! High ho! oh! oh ! Right. And erm the skateboard ride. Ooh! That gear. Keeps changing with the Mummy. You know what I've Skateboard ride? you know what, that I What's that one? ca just can play that, I couldn't do recorders that well? Yes. Well now erm, I'm really good at it. Can you do all the musical notes? Yeah. Every green bus drives fast. Pardon? Every, every green bus drives fast. Ha! Does Mr still teach you? Yeah, if you look at it. Keira? Pardon? Does Mr still teach you? Yeah. Now hang on, hang on. How are we gonna get past here when the There's a one here. Are those rolls of grass? Oh yes! He's gonna lay a lawn by the looks of it. Er They're trying to pick it off and doing it on the big grass. Oh! You rude boy. Oh not William ? He's pain in the neck! He hurts girls. Who's William ? That boy out there. That's the one there. Does he go to your school? Yeah. See look. Yeah. Do you like Scott ? And you've got a play on today haven't you? He's a pain in the neck! Pardon? But there is a play on today isn't there? In your school. Oh yeah. Right. Miss . Now it's very cold out there. Mr . No it ain't. Very windy and cold. Mr Mr pooey-wooey poo. The man Mr poo! Mm, mm You rude, revolting boy! Oh look! Guess what Kirsty doing when What? we was just practising for recorders? What? She was going like this, and the music was on, she put her feet out and she put the music on her feet. Oh well. Is Kirsty in recorders as well? Yeah. I'll show you what it was like. Right. Re it was like that. Let's have a look . Ooh! And Virginia was standing up. Right. I didn't because it made her feet ache. I'll call your names out. Yeah. and then, you know who was doing what. Until then, can we all sit on the mat, please. Ben where did you get that? Is that your book? Yes, Mrs . Oh! Is that what you brought in erm today? Oh I see Kevin. Very good. Right. It was . Yes you do don't you? It's very nice. But I don't, I don't do the book because that's boring. Right. Can I take the register. Look! Why don't you sit down and read a book for five I got minutes ten minutes. until we get started? Katy? What did you have to do yesterday then? You to the disco? Oh dear me! Okay. I hope you're feeling better now. I never have that problem Katy. Yes. Are we not doing that then? Now there's Alexander off with erm, with chicken pox. Chicken pox? Erm Kieran, sit, read please. Thank you. Jonathan . Ian's on holiday . Right girls, sit down please. Thank you. Have you got a reading book? Yeah. Are you all ready to work? Yeah. Anita would you get a reading book love and sit and read it? Beg your pardon? Do you buy lipstick? No well some of it is whale oil, particularly those extracted from sperm whales us used in the manufacture of certain expensive lipsticks. But I don't buy expensive lipstick. Oh! Right. And an mine's made out of vegetable fat. Because in the ones that I buy it says, not harmful to animals. Alright? Right. Who's ready to sit down and read? What's that you've got in your hand? I've got it in my hand. Now where did you get that from Simmone? It's my one. I know it is. Let's have a look at it. Simmone has brought in her own personal dictionary. Erm, a Ladybird dictionary. And remember, we did all the dictionary words yesterday well Simmone has got some with pictures in. That's a fantastic that, I wish I had one like that. And at the back We've got a game. That's brilliant! Yes. Beautiful. Thank you. Have we got a David? No. Yeah. Have we got a Mr ? I'll go and get one. I think I've got one to read in the . Why don't you read your dictionaries? A couple of other children's names. That'll be nice wouldn't it? Clare? Sarah? And Lesley? We've got David? Have we got a Dean? Just in time. Just in time. Right lads sit down and read until I tell you what we're doing. Thank you. I've got . Horrid cold day today isn't it? I must say. Now is there a Gemma ? Mark? Mark? Yeah. Katy? Shh! Shh! Shh! Kimberley. Kirsty . Anita. Yeah. And er is there an Andrew in that Yeah. corner? Yes. Mandy. Ben ? Yeah. Carl? Yep. Carl? Yes love. Simmone. Martin. Are you going to be a good boy today Martin? Be better. Paul . Nadine. Joanne. Nadine. Claire. Okay then. You weren't off yesterday were you? Right. Pardon? She keeps asking for her . I dunno why. Has anybody seen Nadine? Gemma and Brian have you seen er the ? Erm, Martin, Martin and Peter can stay behind. Shh! Settle down please. Quiet please. These people can stay behind when assembly's out. People! Andrew! Listen carefully please. These people are staying behind in assembly's out. Gillian Ben Kimberley Joanne Oh! Paul Mark David, Dean. And there well those people are doing the test first. I can't tell you everybody, two more to do. So those people, when we go for assembly they stay behind and I'll do the work with them first. And I want somebody to help the little ones later on. It's much easier that way. Okay? Right. How do you spell box? Anybody know? What? Now this is a hard one. So think about it, don't just throw your hands in the air. Can anybody spell er between? Between? Yes Candice? Stand up and see if you can spell between. B E T W E E N Excellent! Sit down. Well done. Can anybody spell, I'll think of some easy ones shall I? Yes. And? A N D . Thank you. The? Paul? T H E . T H E or T H E . Erm, let me think of another one. When. When is not as easy as you might think. Andrew! Can you spell when to the class? W E N Well a lot of people would fall into fall into the trap of thinking that. Yes. Gillian's got it right. Wa it's Wa ha E Na . It's a silent Ha. Thank you. Now another one I'm going to try and catch you out with. Knee. David? Na It's a funny one. E E E Kne knee. Nearly David, but not quite. Er, who hasn't had a turn? Abigail ? K N E E . Thank you! Because of course it's a little trick one again. Because it's a silent K. It's a silent K. Try to get this over to you. It's a silent K. Now, a lot of people have trouble when they spell words that have shh or ba in them. So, Kimberley, could you spell the word shoe. S H O E . Yes. Because all the shh words have sa ha don't they? Shh. Katy what did I just say? All the shh words, what, what do they begin with? Er they er er A sa capital S. sa ha. Sa ha . Sa ha . Okay? Right. Now other problems that might come up are when people spell words and they've got double letters on the end, you can forget the double letters. Can anybody spell well? W E L L . W E L L . Yeah. W E L L . Can anybody spell, spell? Candice? Again. S P E double L . Correct. Don't forget your double I know one. Ls, please. Erm Right. Now what are we going to do? If you want to. Miss . I wish you'd start behaving yourself! Thank you. Right. If anybody have any spellings who can't help them. Okay. You just put down how you think that they are spelt. Does it matter how, about the spellings? Well yes it does Kevin. But don't worry about them. Just put them down the way you think that they're spelt. Okay? How you think they're spelt. And you know, the chances are you'll be right. If you put . It won't be Paul . He can write. You all can write very well. That's the whole thing. Excellent! Well done. Really looking forward to this. Right. Ooh ! Remember, bearing in mind the story we did yesterday could be quite interesting. But what happens? Or you could just write about how you enjoyed the story or you didn't enjoy the story, or you think it's a great story, or what actually happened in the story. Was it another story entirely? I don't know what we have to put. No, just put down how you think you do it. Okay? That's all I want David. Just want you to try your best. Now this is what we're going to do. Let us think. Please may I go to the toilet? and I will speak to you individually. Now,individually. One at a time. Now this is what you can do if you want to. You may Shh! Kevin. Kevin. Yes, Carl . You may do some maths if you want to. No. You may do your language work if you want to. I thought you said anything? If you don't want to do either of those things and you are keen on writing a story, you may write Miss I've written a story. a story. Right. No you may not draw a picture. This has got to do with work. If you want to do some carrot maps those children who didn't do carrot maps, you may do some. Carrot maps is really good fun for the making of the carrot. Shall we do carrot maps? You may do letters but don't mess it up. We're doing Er, Clare! Miss! You make a song about Noah's Ark. Miss, I don't want to do language. I want to One for you, oh! Well that's the same. I haven't got my new stories today. Well how about er, Miss. Miss. Miss! Miss! Miss! Miss! Sorry love? I'll do some dominoes. Erm dominoes? Yeah. Yeah. Do a . Please may I go to the toilet? Mrs can I go to the toilet? Yes you may? Erm Miss. yes you may. wanna do English. Miss can I do maths please? Yes you can. I beg your pardon? Green one. Oh it's in the green box. Clare's going to do the green box. Now I'll do it then. I'm going to be speaking to people on the little red round table. So come over here one at a time. Right. Erm Candice and Jackie ? Go to the staff room. You may go in the staff room and on the round table there is two sheets of paper, one's yours and one's David , bring it to me. Right. Good! Good! Good! I shall listen to readers as well. Gonna be doing a lot of Thursday. Alright? Yes okay. Miss, are you writing this book? Did you say I'm allowed to go and get my book? Yes. Di did you say I'm go and get my ? Er . Paul and Dan. Are you sitting with me Clare? Alright. Good girl. Have you got your face jigsaw in your card? Mark have you got your jigsaw in your drawer? Shall I make the envelope? Yes at least, then the face jigsaw, well what do you need? everything they need is on the result table over there Miss I'm, cut it off Katie's come across a problem she's got too many bits, so she's going to go up and along, this time she's right, is that a jigsaw? Well how you going to cut it up? Isn't it gonna be hard to get all those things stuck up, ah now Cut it this is it, now where's your envelope to make it? Does it fit together? Yeah Let me take a photograph instead mm eh? yeah right Mark, brilliant, have you got card to make eh? You want some card? to make an envelope Miss can I have another piece of card have you got your name on? please? No Does it fit together, does it need a picture to follow? No No, right, you see, put that away, this is fine then, you're happy with it? no, what I'd like you to do is, I want you to put it on the erm, you can take it home later, put it on the windowsill with your plan,don't lose your plan please put it on the windowsill your plan you need to have your plans with you, now you can start tidying up your mess and and Andrew why? well Andrew how's that gonna fit in the envelope? Do you need an envelope? You have to make one, go and make a proper envelope about I've got a purple one Yeah have you got a pencil please? Have you got a pencil? This is my picture, there's my right, now, when it's dry, right are you gonna start making the envelope now? So you're gonna put that back and make an envelope, P, R, P, E, put that out, cos that's gonna be an envelope right, are you alright with that? Oh no yeah that's very nice indeed, but are you gonna cut that one up? Well I'm gonna put but don't put too many, that's nice, now you need your plan, you need to put it over there with your plan put it over there with your plan, put it over there with your plan, okay, is this a jigsaw? Yeah Erm, are you gonna put Happy Easter on? a big alright then oh it's on the board Where of? very good Jonathan, are you gonna cut it out and into your jigsaw then? Where of? Wait a minute and I'll go and get you one you've not start making your envelope, here are big pieces of paper for people to make their big envelope erm, have I got any here are some big pieces of paper for people who want to make envelopes okay now, now you've made yours in, how you gonna cut it up Made it into a jigsaw? miss I've made it Yeah, are you happy with this card? Yeah Now, where's your plan? Go and get your plan Mrs erm right do you need paper or do you need card? Must have card there Are you happy with this? Yeah Just have to finish the card, now how does she know who's it to? Are you gonna make an envelope Clare? Who's it to? My mum Your mum glitter yes, I'm not getting it done, it's for your mum so Can I use it? we're having no you can't just leave it there, right are you going to put some on over that, or there on the printed bit? Where you gonna put Er oh, are the right handed pieces are on? Yeah Alright then, I think that's brilliant, erm now your plan has to go, you didn't need same piece of card, right, that's for the envelope as well, put your name on the back Miss next put your name on will that fit into there? I beg your pardon, if it won't fit in what? no you have to have an envelope for that to fit into, what you gonna do with that to make it fit? Yes Miss will you do that for me? Wait a minute, Miss will you do that for me? Because it keeps on coming out Miss This paper? Yeah Why don't you use the other one then? it's out that's what it keeps on doing Miss I'm having nightmares with this paper today Oh I don't know why funny how I just er I never have it's mine actually I told them they have to be very careful, I'm wondering if they put the right size in, excuse me can you go right out the way they're not the right size, because the, the it's just the second one that's got jammed no, it's just that people are borrowing it and ripping it apart, it is a ve it is an extremely expensive stapler Miss my mum's got a bigger one at home and nothing I can do about that Shall we try the other one? Miss Jean's got it oh dear now, not now, somebody's knocked it, there's all these droppings on the floor slightly to one side Yes, mm mm does right right I'm sorry about that, yes I've done the envelope let's staple the card, for mums, are you gonna put anything inside? What are you gonna put on the front? All of it Yes I know, but who's it to? Mummy Go and test your jigsaw yes, go and test your jigsaw good Need staples Oh you need staples well Mrs has the stapler, if you go and borrow it, how you going to cut that up? Think about it Now if she's passed that level, then she's er, it's ten points reading I see. the chronological age is eight, but her reading ability is ten point six plus Yeah. depending on which one she used Yeah. but when we come to testing them for reading erm on the national curriculum to say level one, level two, level three Yeah and the, I know from and you're going up you know she said she was sort of level three plus when she did that Right. I understand. Well when she's level Clare means she's well ahead of herself and now she's got, you could give her books that were appropriate for a ten year old and she could read them Yeah. because she, she had that ability Yeah. she's very good, whatever but you, I don't know which we, you just have to say next time you see her oh which reading test do you use and you can work out, how, what, you know, I've got a reading test somewhere I'll see if I can find it for you, just show you well you don't just pop it next to it with your name on, good Jean I wanna take it home I'm gonna let you take it home we, we, we stick it together? No, I'm gonna let you take it home okay people if you've finished tidy up, you two go and tidy up please, thank you Can I sit next to you? And I promise I won't fall on you, no I know, I keep, well I'd, you get worried because if it came on gently, you know, smoothly you know what, to come on so quickly I'm Right we'll just have a Who's sitting there, anybody there? No I've just brought one over Oh okay Are you cold Dolores? Not at all we actually had a very cold Christmas Oh we've had the coldest year I thought you were over for that seventy five degrees I mean, and it was really cold and when we got back it was cold as well, it's only the last four weeks that we've been able to use the outdoor pools again it's a good life, yes Is it? You'd recommend it then the standard of living is would ya? Definitely yes, we wish we'd done it sooner How you getting on with the erm, you know, being a second class citizen? Erm you can watch for them, oh gosh well, in a while respect their religious beliefs and they're at terms to Yes, but they don't respect yours. They don't actually No no, erm, I mean when, you're not allowed to practise any religion out there, so any Really? religious services we go to have to be done in secret and Really? Oh yes it's ver I mean the priest, it says it has the British Embassy, he has, he is an American serviceman and he actually has his own bodyguard, a driver who's been trained. Good God Yeah, so, and, the who were the religious police who were actually watching, so we haven't gone back for a while erm, so that the well the thing is you go to somewhere like Dubai which is in the same peninsular and within half a mile of the, of the college there, there's an Anglian church yeah and every one just gets on with it. Well I just thought as a woman not, you know as a person oh yes, honestly some shops you're not allowed to go into, you have a window yeah that's right Is it because you're a woman or because you're a foreigner or? Because you're a woman like an ice cream shop, no women allowed inside women aren't allowed into video stores or erm Oh you can't imagine it tape stores that sort of thing You can't drive your car You can't drive the car that's one of the worse I think I mean if, if you go shopping all on my own but you, they, they are, they're very sweet, the second class citizens of all, I mean they say they're cherished and looked after and but they're not allowed to drive, they're not allowed to work oh they're not allowed to work? No. Oh it's not that bad No they're not allowed to work You've changed your mind now Are they allowed to have the babies? That's all they're there for. Oh That's all they're there for is to breed basically I mean it's a lovely way of life for them I suppose, but I mean within a fifty kilometre er outline of the Riyadh city there are police check points and the people are checked going in and out, none of them allowed yeah, they're not even allowed free travel in their own country, but they are, it's a police state, they are checked and double-checked, and I mean the things we hear now about, they have a lot of Philippine workers there Mm a lot of Indian workers, all the construction workers are Indians and all sort of shop people are all Filipinos, all the supermarkets are Filipinos in checkouts and the shelves, and that's the, a lot of the Filipino women that go out, go out as servants and of course the husband Oh they have a hell of a life haven't they? Mm The minute she becomes pregnant and can't hide it any more she's actually put into prison yeah, they're just, they're just disposed of, they're sent into prison, they're, the, the prisons er any food, they have their babies in prison Hell a Victorian prison and after services have been done and collection for the prisoners, erm, you know that was the international they were getting Yeah they would, I mean we've heard stories one of the, John one of the school drivers who's an Indian, he couldn't bel they bring them out in big large groups. erm, he said one of the friends he'd come out with he became a house boy in a house, and the lady took a fancy to him, took him to bed, the husband found him and he was later found Oh my God That's the way that they deal with men ooh So really nothing's moved since Moses' time No has it, in that respect? Definitely not, there's nothing you can do, no there is nothing you can do, and the restrictions on the I mean the Matawa who are the religious police they have a lot of clout, a lot of clout, erm, we were in the gold souk down the old markets before we came away and there was two Matawa and they have big sort of straggly beards and they are shorter than everybody else's and, but this one had a, a cape on with a gold braid which meant he was a big high up one, and he was just absolutely paranoid, I mean they reckon that the Matawa are such fanatics that they are just Greeks, you know they just, you know these ones that just Yeah themselves and cut themselves and for, for Allah and whatnot hit and he had two policemen, now if they had, they're, they're not allowed to stop you and ask for your identification unless they have policeman with them, but they can arrest you and take you to their police station and they can be quite intimidating and, but they were going round, there was American service in there who have little cards written on it, they said they don't have to cover their heads they, they're allowed to do just as well as they please Oh, are they allowed to drive? because they said I believe they're not, erm and he stopped these two American servicemen Mm and he shouted at them to cover their heads and, cos of Ramadan and erm you know they, they really took the Mick out of them you know, and then, when was getting really cross and was beginning to call the police over she just produced a card and they just throw it and said this means nothing to me, this means nothing to me, cover your head and she just laughed at them and walked away, but he, he pounced on a Filipino girl who was actually wearing jeans, and socks and said her jeans were too short they're just crazy people and very hypocritical, very hypocritical, there's no respect for them whatsoever Mm apart from that you had a great time Definitely in the compound? Yes it's very nice It's very nice with friends if you could of gone out there Yeah made a lot of nice friends yeah, there's a lot of friends teaching the school, there's a lot of, there's sixteen Irish erm a lot of Australians, er two Americans, there's a lady from Sweden and, you just meet so many people in some, different countries. Is there a lot of social life do they organize that? There is a lot of social life there, people do tend to, to entertain more in their homes Yeah Yeah and the people worked in the big hotels but I mean would any, is there anywhere, where they could come can you drink on campus? Oh yes you can drink Is that alright? you, you be very careful about driving drinking your parts Pick it up now, go on Yeah cos if you were stopped or you had an accident I say pick it up now erm, but everybody home brews, I mean there's some people who've been out there who make beautiful Cointreau Oh er That religion? yeah on estate, er the big, big compound they have stills and there's a lady who actually does it as a living Oh right she, gets pure alcohol that's called and then you buy it all first to make your Cointreau and all the wine is ever so easy, this, the big bottles of grape juice you buy there, go in the sugar, plenty of yeast, there you go, you have thirty six litres I dread to have grape juice over there, they must think when they go to shop Well you buy one case in one supermarket and then And then another there but you don't go in and buy five cases of and you don't know what you're gonna do with it Thirsty work, eh? Yeah But everybody home brews Homemade gin There's another one called Jeddah gin, which is gin made with potatoes and oranges, grapefruits, lemons is that powerful? I haven't had Jeddah gin yet, I've had but I haven't had the Jeddah gin yet Just leave the recipe with us write it on the blackboard It's the new technological thing horizontal do you wanna change anything in your site I don't know So how long you back for? Till twenty fifth Oh are ya? Have you made any plans? No just having no it's fine, I had a lovely drink over there, I've just left it Fine And what about the actual teaching there? It's very good Is it? Yeah It's not important The maximum number of children you can have in a class is twenty and I have a maid for one day a week and she does all my backing up, wet the walls and and she does all that sort of work for me What nationality is she? Er, she's English, they're all, their husbands are all out in British Aerospace contracts and, and I get which is quite nice What you do the national curriculum then? Oh yeah we do the national curriculum yeah What year did you end up with? Er first year juniors Have ya? which is quite nice because I've never taught that so I want to stay there next year Do you have a lot of changes with staff? Are there some people who don't kind of like it? Er, it's not so much that, there is a, a nucleus of contract staff which are there permanently, but erm, most of the staff are local contract, people, teachers who are out with their husbands. Mm, so they might be There's, we have a lot of Australians teaching over there, a lot of Canadian and a lot of British as well but they can come and go, I mean the year four they lost two teachers in the last two weeks cos their husbands got other jobs and the contracts were just terminated and, so it's quite a, a moveable circle of people, er, but just, they have actually sacked one of the lads that came out with us, they won't be renewing his contract next year, he only had a two year contract Why? He didn't really live up to expectations, he wasn't he didn't work hard enough I feel, he was lazy and he was too used to teaching abroad class room, give the children an exercise to do and that was it, they did it, and no questions were asked and that's how they want and the other guy was he just did it himself he, he wasn't abusive but he, he wasn't good with the kids and An attitude problem he had, he had a definite attitude problem so they said they would relieve him of his contract oh that's fair enough, they're paying you good money and they expect you to work hard and that's it but we finish at one o'clock next term why? Because of the heat So what time do you start? Ten to eight What time do you finish? Normally it's half term You work straight through without No we have forty minutes lunch Mm and twenty minutes in the morning, but we work right through, skip lunch, finish at one o'clock then ah that'll be much nicer way, good attitude isn't it? Mrs wouldn't like that would she? She'd say now you're really pushing it trying to get home early aren't you Mrs ? no the English news only comes on at half past ten at night and then you'll get what they wanted to hear, so you don't have to listen to the World Service so they vet it do they? Mm Do they vet it? Oh very much so, yeah very much so, yeah, you only hear what they want you to hear But how do they vet it? Do they just say bad things, or do they just say good things? No they show only what they want to show, so if there's something they don't like they won't show it Mm so you don't actually get a true version of what happened So, no you won't know that we're trying to get the two pilots out of er Libya Libya and the only thing they would, they would tell us about is what's happening in Iraq, there Did you know that erm, who was missing Arrorat Arafat they actually sacrificed their lives didn't they? They died didn't they? They dived into the sand didn't they, so he would survive at the back of the well when the, the UN people, was it the UN people, were trapped in the raft Oh yeah he wasn't going to let them go, I mean we weren't told any of that on the news, there wasn't a word of that, it only be that from the papers that we'd got there's no problem there, erm, but because we don't actually have a radio that gets us the World Service, the people didn't know what was going on, the only thing that we knew was that the air, because Riyadh is a military city Mm and there's a big air base there, where the big spy, the A W A C spy planes come in and out all the time and they worked constantly and the were going in like and there was a lot of military aircraft to be stocking up again because they thought they'd have to go in Did you get you don't actually it's just all goes up and it goes down, no one actually tells you but you can tell from the amount of aircraft and they train all pilots there as well so yeah I think so if I put those on there would you like to pass them out and then I could refill that's right Dolores a little more red? No thanks I'm fine John a little more red? Just a drop, lovely it's a nice blouse Penny Thank you is it Marks and Spencers'? No it's erm What do you do? So that it's like erm, a dough Yeah what you break off pieces don't you? It's not it's sort of Oh you cook and then you break them off the rest of them Well no, you, you sort of mix it all up and it's like a, a piece of dough, it's like, it's like a pastry Yeah inside it rather than and you just break really, oh no I'd never thought that would work cos I thought that would You don't believe have to be a very low heat you know for microwaves Yes yeah I mean tt meringues it's amazing not that I'm a meringue fan of course, but erm I like the pastry, shortcrust no, I'm not a bundle on I tell ya, I just, I just had this sort of yearning for chocolate, ooh no I'm not no when I am I can't eat anything, if I was like that I just couldn't bear to be even in the same room as anybody who's eating, so no the urge of chocolate is possibly to do with fat we did the technology this morning anyway Oh were you alright? Well, the end results you can't get blood out of a stone can you? No I could hardly believe that there's nobody on level three mm and you see we done the Easter eggs and they can't join in, I have to say no, it's a shame you know the and I can't even help them with that It's very hard for one or two of my small ones but it's alright if you're not doing the yeah that's right I just give them a little you know er some of them they did a five piece jigsaw easter egg things that when they take them and an envelope to send them off to put it in, so when they take it home and fit it together it says happy easter. Katie cut hers up into five hundred pieces More detail and I said you'll have to fit it together again and she said I can't they were all identical squares with squiggles on oh what a Put together yeah don't worry John I feel fine famous last words I think it was just a bug and I think it was caused by There seems to be an awful lot of people in this staff room today how much wine did you have? Julie but she's It's still gotta be the yeah it's so diffi I mean, alright we're, we're gonna be okay because we're and we've, we've a steady occupation etcetera etcetera, but we just turn er, er, you know we're just blind to these people who've got nothing and there's more and more people have got nothing Yeah and we don't see it and it's disgraceful that for another five years they're going to get even less and less I know, but we don't see that do we? No, I don't know how some of them and you know, I mean I know I'm a Geordie, Geordies are hard workers, I mean they're noted for their hard work and it's, it's horrible because they've always, they always suffer Yeah when there's any recession they're the first ones to lose Yeah out. the North East they've always, they've always They've always been a precarious, yeah, I mean me dad used to work down the shipyard and you know you'd live in fear for when they would close the yards down Oh yeah and it happened so regularly all the yards being closed and you'd just be laid off and no keep going back to mm You'd have one sense but when William the Conqueror came I think it was What windows? when he became the gaffer Yeah, do you want the windows closed? but most people Do you want a window open? Anyone because erm the North East was so far away I think they was oh no I've never heard that, no Yeah, er and was certainly he, cos he was a and er, you know I always thought that you see when the, er Normans came and you had the yeah they could and enter Scotland and a lot and then a lot came back from Scotland down to North and there was That's right relatively lush compared to London and Scottish Oh yes, aye the Normans and I think you've gotta I think there's lush and they've always had this complete divide, personalities apart from anything else you know Yeah mm, oh think that's got something to do with it mm, yes, maybe exactly like well you can be on another planet you know Yeah maybe North of Watford and you've had it couldn't you? Yeah It must be worse for the Scots who thank you Nationalist, they blame Labour for that for taking their votes away, mm they did very well in Scotland from what I've heard well did better than they thought they would Yeah I think I despair of the society if voted come I'm gonna emigrate now Hmm it's just, this lot have voted for them again, I'm going what are the red ones? erm, do you think it would, the company provide a photocopier at their school, they have an stuff on it and they have to have a pin number, so you put your pin number in and then it tells you exactly how many copies your pin number has copied That's what I was trying to tell you about It only costs a thousand pounds to get me it would be a lot easier Yeah if it was a machine and you can only use your own pin number you see to do everything I have enough trouble trying to remember my Nat West one do ya mind? You'd be putting in your Nat West one do, do, do, do, do sorry no money left Mrs or you might be tempted to put if it's just one, one to ten or something, you might be tempted to put the wrong number in Pass them round again so I can try one of the other ones this time The little ones this time that was nice this one falls out of your mouth you just need a couple of days to Dave and Julie have got this incredible new kitchen Yeah which, Julie still cooks everything straight from Marks and Spencers on it, I mean you only dirty the bowl, I mean you don't even dirty the microwave Oh that's a good idea, fine by me Mm Who's making your kitchen? I've got my kitchen, it's in my drawing room it's a Martin kitchen Martin goodness me he's a They've expanded If you, if you can visualize it's a long, as you're going in towards me, you pass the hotel then you come to the shops, on the left hand side about the third shop along Oh is that it's in there Mm, scrubbed pine? It's, it's maple Oh it's solid maple, it's got no chipboard inside oh the cupboards are brilliant it's just the fronts are so dated and the man in these reports in the house said erm, kitchen is satisfactory but it needs updating and it was only about seven years ago it was brand new, no, not seven, have we been in then, no eight, so nine or something, I know the fronts need sorting out. Get new doors for that I know, that's right, there's nothing wrong with the casings nothing People who live diagonally up the hill when we moved into and we could because the backs come together we could see the kitchen which was it was quite a nice one Mm and everyone has changed kitchen Has changed kitchen has taken it out what a waste of money,sa sa this guy was saying who did, who did the kitchens said he said all the actual boxes are identical and they're really good quality made and you can tell it's, it's a that was the fronts, I never liked them when I moved in Elaine how many erm film, how many film slots are on this film? Is it thirty six? Cos we're onto number thirty one now It's alright so have you got another film or shall I Yeah I've got another film I was going to try and take a photograph of er lot of 'em so I'm gonna try and yeah maybe I could get two on a film, oh, eh, I don't need to use every single one do I? I just need er, some that I think are on level five and some of them I think are there all the children went there, I said it was kind of insulting wasn't it? Oh yeah I felt insulted actually she's going Oh it's a nice school Self control A couple of weeks ago The day we were going out Oh the day of the trip going out to erm Derbyshire oh is she still going on about it? She, she really feels very vehement about it about it, I think it's because Steven lives across the road, do you not you know the boy in her class er in class that used to come here Yeah er Mr said to me he said if you don't behave yourself lad you'll go straight back to the it's funny erm oh what a classic child, yeah I've never, ever My, my little room, my box Well erm, what do ya realize when you actually get your own badges and have a look at it, it's something like eighty five percent of it is taken up with and there's nothing we can do about that. Which was really what Len said originally wasn't it? There wasn't enough money that's actually worth arguing about There's a little tiny bit to tinker with, but it's not if we were to, we, we're canvassing at pressed about altering the length of the lunchtime break to break it down from an hour and a half and an hour and a quarter to an hour and a quarter to an hour which is being we would save some money on not paying our Mm, well the government might get in our way now, that they've all elected back in Mm to er have an after club er school activities where Good morning. Good morning. Well now, what were you doing ? Ah. This pain in my back, Is the dry rot getting further in do you think? It is. And it's coming down my shoulder to my hand. Aargh. And erm my head's fuzzy you know. It's like bells in my ears. Right. This catarrh, I don't know I think it's catarrh. Aha. It's in there. Spitting. And I get into kinks, coughing Right. to get it up. Right. And it makes me . Sometimes I cannot get the cough out. And I'm coughing like, it's coughing. You know like, is Like the whoop? whooping cough? Like the whooping cough? Right. Now now. And erm I get a letter back, I'm getting the Attendance Allowance. Mhm. Have not got it yet, but Yeah. Och aye. So the, with this it's the only thing I've got. with this changing the rules, about eighteen months ago, Aha. they're giving away money. Mhm. Can't can't get rid of it fast enough. Can't get rid of it fast enough. Now, let's get a wee listen to the back of this chest to see if you ? Are you going to take my blood pressure today? Mhm. I haven't had it taken Sure. for October, I think, when I was up at the hospital and it was down not I was below. Whoops! Sod it! Not Pressure is alright. Up in the hospital the girl Ah. told me it was down. Och,heat. You don't want to listen to what these women tell you. . And that's a hundred and seventy, which is what you would expect for your age. A hundred and seventy over eighty. Mm. It can't be any better than that. Can't be any better than that . I thought that maybe what was making me feel a bit dizzy? No. No. No? No. No. Not that. Not that, that's as near perfect as Also most people get. It's near perfect, it makes no difference. N never been perfect Aye. in your life, but you're nearly perfect you're nearly perfect now. Right. Let's stop with this and this for you as well. Now I've given you er a tablet to take Mary, it's the, it's a one that they've used in fact down at the Pain Clinics, these special Pain At the what? The Pain Clinic, at the, at the Monklands and at the Royal. Mhm. Now, there's a stuff in it that'll help to dry up the catarrh as well. Mhm. You'll feel the inside of your mouth dry up. My mouth's awful dry and my lips and Yes. That's right. Right. and I thought I'd Yeah. I thought I knew, I knew with it I couldn't wear my bottom teeth all week because of the ulcers right beside near the bottom of my gum. Right. right. That's . Fed up with myself not being well. Oh, you get yourself looking at yourself. Indeed. Mm. Indeed you do. You get fed up working at the cos you have no day in it . But er, no, definitely not your blood pressure causing any problem That's good. Mary, no. No, cos I'm taking the faithfully. Yes. Och aye, it's definitely nowt to do with that. Now what about? Are you using any of your ? No. I've got, you gave me some last time and I'd got them the week before, so I've got enough. So you've got enough in the house just now, Mary, I right? I would like er a prescription ? Aye. I've got the spare tablets but I mean getting the prescription. Aye. Well as long as you've got enough to keep you going, that's that's Mhm. the main thing. But there's no terrible worries Hey? no terrible worries. You're gonna live for a wee while yet. Thank you . Aye. My grandson asked me the other morning, when was I gonna die? Oh, I'll tell you, it doesn't make me feel good or . You should've told them Oh. ten years on Friday. Ten years on Friday. Right Mary. Thanks very much. Right. Cheerio now. Cheerio. And as the treasury team meet to discuss spending, there's new talk of more defence cuts. A judge at the Old Bailey has been explaining his full reasons for stopping the trial of the three retired detectives who were accused of tampering with evidence in the case of the Birmingham Six. Mr Justice Garland ruled last week that it was impossible for the former officers to receive a fair trial because of the saturation publicity that followed the release of the six, two years ago. And the perception generated that the court that freed the six, was also finding the detectives guilty. Today Mr Justice Garland stressed that he wasn't suggesting that media coverage of the case should have been restricted. He was concerned simply with the effect of what had happened in this particular case. Former Detective Superintendent George who was in charge of the Birmingham pub bombings investigation, Detective Constable Terence and Detective Sergeant Colin were told last week of the judge's view they couldn't get a fair trial. He said, when the Birmingham Six were released in nineteen ninety one, it was inevitable the court of appeal's decision would appear to be a finding of perjury and conspiracy against the police. They've been accused of fabricating an interview with Richard , one of the Birmingham Six. While he made no suggestion that news coverage at the time should have been restricted, Mr Justice Garland said the volume and intensity of publicity had a snowball effect. There had also been personal prejudice against the three men who would have been on trial. The former detectives were not at the Old Bailey today, proceedings against them are over. Well it would have been very nice if my clients had had the opportunity of a fair trial. But of course we couldn't ignore the factors which er were argued in front of the judge and which led the judge to make his ruling. Isn't there though a stain still on the character of the defendants. Erm no I don't think so. Er I think certainly not among fair minded people. The judge said, the men's defence would have involved a re-examination of the events of nineteen seventy four. For the past two years, the West Midlands police have been reinvestigating the Birmingham pub bombings, the results are soon to be sent to the crown prosecution service. One of the great unanswered questions in the case, is what that investigation has uncovered. Mr Justice garland said he'd had the advantage of seeing the material gathered during this further enquiry into the pub bombings. Three of the Birmingham Six were in the public gallery to hear the judgement. They complained about smears and innuendos over the two years since their release. This this er new report is just trying to rubbish us again. That is all, nothing more and nothing less. We don't know what's in that report and that's one of the reasons why we're calling for an independent enquiry. We want er whatever's in that report to be disclosed so that we're able to address the questions that come up in it. We have absolutely nothing to fear. The men say they're still considering the possibility off civil action against the police and whether to take their case to the European Court. Neil Bennet B B C News. This is the second time a court has ruled that press coverage of a controversial case has prevented a fair trial. The Taylor sisters who were convicted of murdering Alison were freed after the appeal court described coverage of their case as sensationalized and inaccurate. Both cases raise the question of just how the press should cover this type of crime. Today's judgement said it was essentially a political question. Four months ago, Michelle and Lisa Taylor were cleared on appeal of the murder of Alison . Partly because media coverage of their original trail could have prejudiced the jury against. The press coverage was unremitting sensational and inaccurate according to the appeal court. Much of it had assumed the two women were guilty. And there had been so much coverage, a retrial would have been impossible. In the Taylor sisters case, the media was judged to have gone beyond what was acceptable, unlike coverage of the Birmingham Six. Nevertheless, one editor fears today's decision sets a dangerous precedent which could make successful prosecutions much more difficult in future. If there hadn't been the publicity, then the malpractice would never have come to light. So if you start saying there can't be any publicity where there's been alleged malpractice or where there's controversy er well you're going to get into in into a ludicrous situation in which the media will never be able to discuss a situation of this sort. Today's judgement could have an impact on other forthcoming cases. Asil Nadir has been reluctant to return to Britain, partly because he says, media coverage of his case makes a fair trial unlikely. The promoters of a planned musical about Robert Maxwell were told by lawyers acting for his son Kevin, that their production and other media coverage could prejudice future proceedings. And lawyers for the two Libyans suspected of the Lockerbie bombing say a Jury in Scotland might be influenced by what they call prejudicial pretrial publicity. One can think of a number of cases which are coming before the courts where there's been a lot of publicity and I'm sure that the legal teams involved in those cases will be studying this judgement er and will be considering whether or not those principles can't be applied to their cases. I think once you've let loose a case like this, it will be very hard to contain it. Earlier this year, a jury acquitted three ex-policemen of fabricating evidence against the Guildford Four. Another widely publicized case. On that occasion the judge didn't feel the weight of media coverage had prejudiced the fairness of the trial. Nick Hyam B B C News. I'm joined from the Old Bailey now by our legal corre by our legal affairs correspondent, Joshua Rosenburg. Joshua, did Mr Justice Garland explain why it wouldn't be possible to instruct a jury to ignore the publicity and concentrate on the specific charges. Well I think he made it clear that no jury could forget what everybody knew er which is of course er the the facts that emerged at the time er that the Birmingham Six were acquitted. And he said it was difficult for the jury to isolate the narrow questions that they were going to have to decide, which is whether these officers had er fabricated notes of an interview with one of the Birmingham Six, from all the information that they had. And he also pointed out that the three detectives were going to claim in their defence that the Birmingham Six were guilty all along. Now they were perfectly entitled to claim this but this was going to confuse the jury and the jury would also be confuse by the fact there was going to be no mention of the fact which everybody was aware of that the men claim that they were beaten up while they were in custody. He spoke of the enormous amount of new material he had seen The judge did th that is. But doesn't appear to have said what part if any that played in his decision. Do you find that surprising? Well he didn't reveal any of this new material and none of it was revealed in open court. Er it's a matter of speculation as to whether it did play any part. I I cannot see that it can have because it wasn't actually put to him but he did mention twice in his judgement that he was aware of this new material and as Neil Bennet said, we'll have to wait and see what that is. Joshua Rosenburg, thank you very much. This year's Nobel Peace Prize has been awarded jointly to the South African President F W de Klerk and the A N C leader Nelson Mandela. The Nobel committee said it was given for their work towards a peaceful ending of apartheid and for laying the foundation for a democratic South Africa. Mr de Klerk said he was overwhelmed by the award. And Mr Mandela said it would make him strive even harder for peace. The change in South African politics began with the release of Nelson Mandela. He'd served twenty seven years in Jail for advocating the violent overthrow of Apartheid. But now putting personal bitterness aside, he threw his enormous influence on the side of peace. Take your guns, your knives and your and throw them into the sea. His fellow prizewinner is the man who released him. president F W de Klerk had also gambled by overthrowing the entrenched attitudes of his white countrymen. The right wing labelled him a traitor. But the President held a referendum and won convincing support from South Africa's whites. Today we have closed the book on apartheid and that chapter. Today in Johannesburg news of the Nobel Prize was celebrated both outside add inside the African National Congress Headquarters. In accepting it, Mr Mandela congratulated President de Klerk a demonstration of the mood of reconciliation which won both of them the prize. I dedicatee this award to all the courageous people of my country, black and white, who have suffered and endured so much and pledge that in whatever time remains to me, I will spare no effort to bring peace and freedom and justice for all to South Africa. President de Klerk reaffirmed his belief that negotiations would settle South Africa's future. But said the country was at a crossroads. We still face tremendous challenges there are stumbling blocks which must be overcome. We have all sorts of remaining problems but by and large, if we look back over the past three four years, tremendous progress has been made. Death and violence are the accompaniments to negotiation as South Africa struggles forward to elections next year. And critics of the men inside both black and white communities have criticized them for causing bloodshed. But the Nobel Prize committee said the prize was not a declaration of sainthood. Instead looking at the changes which had been achieved, they judged that Mr Mandela and President de Klerk had laid the foundations for a new democratic South Africa and done so through personal integrity and great political courage. Brian Hanrahan B B C News. The supreme court in South Africa has passed death sentences on two right wing extremists convicted of murdering the South African Communist Party leader Chris Harney. Yanoush Valus, a Polish immigrant and Clive Derby-Lewis a pro apartheid politician were found guilty yesterday. The judge said the two knew the killing would cause chaos, anarchy and widespread bloodshed. Ecstasy in downtown Johannesburg at the very moment crowds outside the supreme court heard that Yanoush Valus and Clive Derby-Lewis, two men driven by cold political fanaticism to assassinate Chris Harney, had themselves been sentenced to death. Harney's death was a political assassination, it triggered nationwide riots followed by the biggest murder investigation South Africa has seen. Harney's widow, when she emerged, insisted that others must have been involved in a conspiracy. Their sentence doesn't bring my husband back. Their sentence doesn't bring the father of my three daughters back. now we are left with getting the plotters. The plotters of my husband's assassination should be brought to court. Then we'll have true peace. In court earlier, the prosecuting attorney general said Valus, a Polish immigrant, driven by contempt for communism, and Derby- Lewis, right wing conservative party activist, had committed a cold blooded, premeditated and abhorrent crime. Society, he insisted, demanded their destruction. The judge agreed. Before handing down the death sentence, he asked if the two men had anything to say. Valus and Derby-Lewis showing no remorse replied, nothing. They were driven away to death row in Pretoria's central prison. For the past three years, President de Klerk has maintained a moratorium on hanging with the A N C's approval. This afternoon Nelson Mandela gave his verdict. The death sentence is the best sentence a court of law could have imposed under the present circumstances. Nelson Mandela faces a serious dilemma, after appeals it will be his government that must decide whether or not to commute sentence. If he abides by A N C policy and spares the lives of Valus and Derby-Lewis, then thousands of young radicals in the townships will be enraged. If the two men hang, then South Africa faces the very real risk of a severe right wing backlash. John Harrison B B C News, Johannesburg. Here, the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists has expressed concern about the safety of underwater births. The college has asked the Department of Health to investigate the practice after a baby died during delivery in a pool in Sweden. This afternoon, doctors at a Bristol hospital disclosed that a baby there had died after the mother used a pool during the first stage of labour. But the Royal College of Midwives said, it wouldn't use the technique if it didn't believe it was safe. Twenty years ago, one British birth in ten thousand was underwater, today in some areas of the country, it's one in twenty. The death of a baby boy this week in Sweden has raised fears there about the dangers of birth underwater. He did not breathe spontaneously and died in a pulmonary W with lungs filled with water and we can't exclude that the reason for that was just the water bath. The Stockholm hospital concerned has now closed the bath used for underwater deliveries. Doctors at a Bristol hospital said today, they'd called for more research following two cases there in which mothers had used water baths in the early stages of labour. Though in neither case was delivery underwater. One child dies, another is brain damaged. This could merely be clustering, it could be merely chance. Er but since this is a relatively new area of technology, we felt it our responsibility to report this. The Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists say too little data exists on the dangers of underwater birth. Our main concern is here is a method that might be a problem it's theoretically and physiologically could be a problem, about which we do not know the extent. Many mothers sing the praises of underwater delivery. After two traditional births, Jayne Beaumont had her nine week old daughter Jessica underwater. It was peaceful, it was erm quick, it was easy, if you can call childbirth easy. Erm and she had a wonderful peaceful entrance into the world. At one British hospital where underwater delivery was pioneered, almost three hundred and fifty births have taken place over five years without problems in the special pool. There's enthusiasm for this method of delivery. We wouldn't be offering it if we didn't feel it was a safe option for women. But of course nothing is a hundred percent safe in in obstetrics or the medical profession. But I can't irritate enough, we wouldn't be offering it if we didn't feel it was a safe option. The Department of Health says it will be studying doctors' concerns about underwater birth. Mike Smart B B C News. The time is six sixteen. And still to come, a peace vigil in Belfast, speakers urge terrorists on both sides to leave the community alone. And from the Princess of Wales, a plea for those caring for loved ones, who've suffered brain damage. An armed man in his early thirties was shot dead by police in North London today. Scotland Yard say the man hijacked a refuse vehicle at gunpoint after running away from the scene of a robbery. Several shots were fired at the officer who were not injured. The police complaints authority will supervise and investigation into the incident. In a North London timber yard, the body of the armed robber was still being examined by a police forensic team late this afternoon. The police had shot the man in the head after he had fired on Police a number of times as they chased him. They police say their action was in self defence and justified. They looked like they acted quite properly erm and er unfortunately someone's been shot dead. After the lunchtime bank robbery, in nearby Highgate, the man had run off initially firing at police officers chasing him on foot. The man then hijacked this council refuse truck threatening the three workers outside it. When he er he comes round the front he says, Give us the keys. We says, No. Then he sort of went like this, pulled out a big gun, pointed it at us says, Give us the keys, again. So I said, here I'll give it you. As a number of police cars chased the refuse truck, the man again fired on Police officers. He hit that big vehicle and then he hit me add a few other cars behind me. And then you know there was a lot of police cars chasing. A double parked lorry blocked the armed man's path. The police say he then fled from the refuse truck, running into the timber yard. The police say he fired again, an armed officer then shot him. The police complaints authority will now supervise an investigation into the exact circumstances of the shooting. Clarence Mitchell, B B C News, North London. The Chancellor of the Exchequer, Kenneth Clarke is meeting senior colleagues to discuss taxation and spending options for next months budget. It's emerged that further cuts in defence spending are being considered including reducing the number of senior officers and ministry of defence civil servants. But the chairman of the Defence Select Committee has warned it would be unrealistic to make any further reductions. Of all the ministers present for today's crucial session of future spending and tax plans, Michael Partial, the chief secretary to the Treasury is said to be most eager to see further cuts in the military. Treasury officials say they want to save one billion pounds on defence, the opening demand in a vicious Whitehall battle. One treasury suggestion is to cut senior personnel because one estimate shows that junior ranks have taken the brunt of the cuts so far. The M O D says that idea wouldn't save much with all the handshakes and pensions and there is support for that view. Even if you did did cut one or two admirals, you're not going to make much of a dent in a fifty billion pound public expenditure deficit. And so I think that it's easier to to make criticisms of small matters in detail, but it is not easier to make a serious defence cut. And if we were to cut further in any significant way, then we would undermine our capacity to look after the defence interests of our country. With troops deployed in Bosnia for a year already, and no one knows for how much longer, the defence secretary Malcolm Rifkind is openly arguing against more cuts unless commitments like this are cut as well. The opposition and the military agree with him. The government are putting the defence of Britain at risk by this Treasury led approach. We're asking our troops to do more and more with less and less. What's needed is a full defence review so we can actually shape our forces to match the threats which are facing us. If you're going to keep up the same pattern of commitments the answer is that the army is already stretched as it clan be and so are the other two services and this is putting a terrific strain on the individual servicemen and their families. And I don't think any money can reasonably taken away. The defence ministry may be helped in its battle with the treasury when the commons defence committee publishes two highly critical reports on Monday at the start of the annual defence debate. There's also support from the foreign office which wants to see Britain contribute to U N operations and from industry which is desperate to secure orders for new weapons. None of this though guarantees the armed forces will be spared from further cuts. David Schuckman, B B C News, at the Ministry of Defence. More than a thousand people held a peace rally in Belfast today in protest at last Tuesday's murder of a Catholic father of five. Protestants at the rally said they were disgusted by the shooting and by other loyalist attacks on Catholics. In a separate development, the president of Sinn Fein, Gerry Adams called for the demilitarization of the province and repeated that the I R A was not prepared to arrange a unilateral cease fire. There have been many peace rallies many times before in Northern Ireland, the significance of today's not the numbers, a thousand or so, but who they were. Workers from Shorts, Harland and Wolf and other companies, predominantly protestants demonstrating at the murder of a Catholic. They were told, now was the time to find the courage to stand up to terrorists, It's quite poignant that ninety percent of the people here were protestant. Starting out for a Catholic worker. And that to me i is a very positive point. I think over the last few months, there's been so much killing that maybe for me, that was the the watershed. At the same time, the Sinn Fein President Gerry Adams said again in a B B C interview there would be no unilateral cease-fire by the I R A. And what was needed was total demilitarization. But he emphasized the Hume-Adams talks were the only window of opportunity around. Comments which will be the focus of the Ulster Unionist conference when it starts tomorrow. A conference which has aroused enormous interest after the party suggested this week they would talk to Sinn Fein if the I R A ended its campaign of violence permanently. A position which has angered many unionists at grass roots level. But as the politicians continue to argue and the gunmen continue their own agenda, the people are as desperate as ever for some formula which will end the killing. Matthew B B C News, Belfast. The United States is asking the U N security council to authorize a stop and search operation against ships heading for Haiti. An American official said Washington wanted to enforce the international oil and arms embargo against the country. The move follows yesterday's assassination of the justice minister in Haiti's transitional government. Bill Clinton's advisors gathered at the White House to face yet another foreign policy challenge, proposing the use of U S naval power to enforce sanctions against Haiti and at the United Nations, U S diplomats were pressing for what would be a virtual blockade of the island. Haiti's military rulers have thumbed their noses at the U S. The murders of pro-Aristide politicians, a deliberate attempt to sabotage the return to democracy. We need the military to bee decided and willing to stop violence. Not to look for sophisticated legal arguments while people are being shot and killed in the streets. With Canadian peace keepers now pulling out of Haiti, Aristide supporters are asking the U S for protection. A strengthening of the er marine contingent at the embassy as a security matter er to potentially provide for other Haitians, for Haitians who who may who are in danger. The Haitian military have shown no willingness to compromise and Washington now wants U N authorization to use military power to enforce sanctions against them. That would mean U S warships ringing the island and the escalation of a confrontation that the White House now seems determined to win. Martin Sixsmith, B B C News, Washington. Britain's second biggest brewer, Courage, is to axe seven hundred jobs after an extensive review of its operations. The jobs will be shed over the next eighteen months and will affect management, administration and production workers across thirty five sites. The brewery says that compulsory redundancies can't be ruled out. The days when brewers rode recessions with ease have long gone. If they ever existed. Courage with its string of Bulk brews from John Smiths to Fosters now talks of a formidable challenge as it reorganizes in the face of a four percent drop in total British beer sales a year. people are drinking less. Erm and they're drinking less because of the recession. They're drinking less because of changes in lifestyle. Erm and a an awareness er thankfully of drink driving laws. Since the war there's been the slow death of the British beer drinker. People in the business say we've changed our habits. Men tend to drink in rounds less now. Peer group pressure is easing on that. And there's been the wine bar, the symbol of the eighties. Nineteen seventy eight was the peak bitter and lager year in Britain. Forty million barrels were produced. Today, under assault from wine, that's fallen to thirty four million, two hundred and twenty pints a beer each now, nearly three hundred a decade ago. And less heavy industry means less heavy drinking. Traditionally, after a day in the steelworks, the coal mines, people used to quench their thirst to replace the liquids they've lost. Perhaps six, seven pints of beer then. Tho those sort of drinkers I think have erm almost disappeared in in large areas and subsequently, beer consumption has fallen. And cider grows as beer falls. Advertised in an Americanized style for younger people. And beer, caught between the factors and the one third increase in teetotalism over the past decade. All pressing the brewers and their employees. Steven Evans, B B C News. The Princess of Wales has been speaking about the problems faced by people caring for loved ones who have suffered brain damage. Addressing a conference in London she said that all too often, families were left isolated drained and exhausted as they helped to rebuild a shattered life. Two years after a road accident, Chris Dorrington is learning to walk again. He's receiving intensive physiotherapy at the Wolfeson Medical rehabilitation Centre in South West London. Which has an international reputation for treating patients with head injuries. But the centre is far from overstretched. A third of its beds have been empty for several years. Despite a waiting list of patients. The centre's director who organized today's conference attended by the Princess of Wales, says health authorities give too low a priority to rehabilitating head injured patients. He says delays clan jeopardize chances of recovery. It's catastrophic, the earlier the patients treatment begins, the better. There are physical problems, psychological problems, all sorts of problems. The needs of the patients aren't me met. Let alone the needs of the family and the carers. Dr Jenkins also criticizes the lack of aftercare for people like Sean Stanley. He's a former patient of the Wolfeson, and is cared for by his wife, a nurse who he met at the centre. Sean is blind and physically disabled, he pays for two private physiotherapy sessions a week, otherwise his condition could regress. Once you're er out of a hospital, that's that. this or that anybody without the private means to pay for it, has to do without physiotherapy. The Princess of Wales who's patron of the national head injuries association Headway, told the conference that adequate resources for rehabilitation were essential. We need to know for certain that if a person were to suffer in this way, the care will be there for them. Not just at the beginning but throughout what may prove to be a long and difficult journey of recovery. The clear message from the conference was that without adequate facilities, many head injured patients will fail to improve and could even get worse. Fergus Walsh, B B C News. And the main news again, an Old Bailey judge has explained why he's stopped the prosecution of the three detectives accused in the Birmingham Six case. He said publicity surrounding the officers had snowballed so that the public perceived them as guilty. And Nelson Mandela and President F W de Klerk have won the Nobel Prize for peace. The next national news is the Nine O'clock news. But from Moira Stewart and from me, good evening and have a peaceful weekend. Good morning erm, oh, it does work, it booms. At least everyone can hear, right? Good morning then, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to this annual general meeting of the National Council for Voluntary Organisations. My first, er, but sad duty is simply to say that Sir Kenneth , our President, had hoped to be here, but he's had er, an operation and er, he is not really quite well enough, so I was asked as a Vice-President, whether I would stand in for him, at the weekend, and er I shall do my best, and erm, I'm glad to have to opportunity of doing one or two things, but we'll come to those in due time. Er, I should also re , remind you so my brief informs me, of the no smoking rule, which was adopted at last year's er, A G M, and which means there's no smoking er, in this room at any rate, and certainly not during the meeting. Now, erm, I think that er, we er, should first, er, seek to adopt the minutes of the last meeting which I hope you have all seen and studied with due care and attention, and er, I should like to ask first whether there are any amendments which anyone would wish to put forward, to those minutes? And if not I will move from the Chair, the adoption of the minutes of last year's A G M. Those in favour of that? And those against? Carried, nemine contradicente. That wasn't bad for early in the morning? Erm, good, now then we come to er, well perhaps I should ask first whether anyone wishes to raise any questions arising out of those er, minutes? Please. Earmarking round the U K yes? I think it was resolution six on disabled people, er, resolution eight, sorry. The sentence reads , the Council instructs the executive committee, to take whatever steps it considers necessary to ensure that this Council shall employ at least underlined, the minimum legally required number of disabled people. I couldn't read a reference in the Annual Report to a review of the this matter, or an agreement that the Council had actually taken this on board, and it was operating. I'm hoping to hear that that is the case. Simon to er, reply to that point, thank you. I hope people at the back can hear, erm, we obviously took up action on the resolution passed last year, in two or three different ways. Firstly, erm, we undertook a survey of our own membership er, in order to see what sort of action people were taking themselves, er, about disablement issues, and especially about the employment of disabled people within their own organisation. Erm, we had I think in fairness, a fairly small response to that, and the executive had a discussion recently about how to take the matter forward further. We included in that discussion at the executive what N C V O's own position was and how it would seek to improve own practice. It was agreed at, I think the last executive committee, that as a follow-up to that survey, and to take on board er, N C V O's own practice, a small working group was going to be established of people from disability organisations, those which are both disabled-led organisations, and others, to enable us to take that forward over the next year. So action has been taken, both in terms of our membership and N C V O for itself. Thank you. Does that erm, answer your question? yes, that's perfect. Good, any other questions arising out of last year's minutes? Alright, now we come to the erm, first resolution, erm, but before I invite Alan Morgan, to er, er, er, propose this resolution let me just say, it will of course be the last occasion, I've never seen such a remarkable er, demonstration of the interest which we all have in the future of Alan . You are surrounded by the latest edition of the N C V O News, so you know that this is the last occasion. I shall have another word to say about him, you're not getting off as lightly as that Alan, er, but erm, I, I think that erm, what I should now do, is to invite him, as our Chairman over the year in question, to er, move the adoption of the Annual Report. Mr. Chairman, nineteen eighty nine has been a significant year for the voluntary sector, and we have witnessed some important developments, including the publication of the White Paper, Charities, a Framework for the Future. The announcement of the efficiency scrutiny of government funding of the voluntary sector, legislative changes in local government, and Housing Bill, are also likely to change the relationship between voluntary organisations and local authorities. Also the government's recent announcement on Community Care will give voluntary organisations new responsibilities in this important area. There have been significant changes in Brit , British society over the past ten years. Whereas a decade ago, voluntary organisations was perceived largely as an adjunct to the state, now we are increasingly seen as equal and independent partners, working alongside the public and private sectors. Their importance in the economy still needs to be given recognition. We hope that two initiatives by government this year, will help to change that. The first is the White Paper on charity law, which we believe combines the flexibility of the present system of regulation with a set of controls designed to increase public confidence in charitable giving. The second is the scrutiny review of voluntary sector funding, which we hope will encourage the government to use their funding as a strategic resource, to provide a stable back-drop for other forms of fund raising, to assign a proper status to voluntary sector funding and to devise more coherent arrangements for its ad , administration. We are confident these reforms will contribute to the recognition of the voluntary sector, not only as a third force, but as a sector in its own right. At the same time N C V O has been active in addressing voluntary organisations own ability to meet the challenges of a changing world. Among the initiatives which we have undertaken this year, is the establishment of a working party under the Chairmanship of Lord Nathan, to make recommendations on developing and maintaining high standards of effectiveness and efficiency within the sector. Matters under consideration include the role and training of trustees, fundraising, management education, public relations and financial accountability. It must however, be emphasised that these matters are not an end in themselves, but a means of enabling voluntary organisations to achieve their aims and objectives effectively, and I understand that that working party report will be published in February, and we all await it very much. Voluntary organisations' relationship with government is but one aspect. It is equally important that voluntary organisations develop an interface with the private sector. To enable us to do this, N C V O in May, launched a corporate affiliation scheme to enhance the understanding of in , industry about the voluntary sector, and vice versa. To promote partnership between companies and voluntary organisations. Our corporate affiliation scheme which will provide a tailor-made service to companies wishing to develop their links with the voluntary sector, has already attracted more than twenty leading companies into membership. N C V O has the voice of the voluntary sector in England, plays a full part in shaping the development of our society alongside government, the corporate sector, and others. Views of N C V O are based upon policy analysis and development work, with it members, and the wider national and local voluntary sector. Meetings for our members have been held on both of these issues, and in response to the scrutiny review, we circulated our membership with our detailed submission to the government to inform their own responses. Through N C V O's constructive dialogue with government and Parliament, through the Parliamentary Panel on Charity Law, chaired by Tim Boswell, M P, and serviced by N C V O, voluntary organisations have been kept closely in touch with developments on Charity Law. When the White Paper appeared in May there was much to welcome, but not a lot to surprise. In response to N C V O's growing and varied membership, the executive committee have agreed to changes in the way that the organisation works with its members on policy issues, which has helped break down barriers between different interests, as organis , as organisations now meet around generic issues, and issues of concern. A good example of this has been the work on broadcasting and the voluntary sector, which N C V O has embarked upon this year, in response to rapid changes in the broadcasting field, and the government White Paper, Broadcasting in the Nineties, Quality Choice and Competition. A range of organisations including Age Concern, the Community Radio Association, Community Service Volunteers and the Volunteers Centre U K, are now working together with N C V O in the broadcasting consortium, which aims to maintain and develop standards of quality in broadcasting, and promote relationships between broadcasters and voluntary organisations. We have tried to respond to increasing demands from what is now a growing membership. In the spring of nineteen eighty-nine, a number of voluntary organisations involved in running telephone help-lines, came to us about B T's plans to introduce compulsory itemised billing, for all customers over the next few years. Help-lines were very concerned about the effect of that possible breach of confidentiality could have on their services, and the vulnerable people they assist. We responded swiftly co-ordinating a report outl , outlining the possible effects of itemised billing. Through case studies in th , entitled Breach of Confidence, the ensuing widespread publicity and pressure at B T's, A M in July, from N C V O has caused B T to think again. I think a good example of N C V O helping voluntary organisations to help others. This has been another busy year in Parliament, with major legislation affecting the voluntary sector, including the Local Government and Housing Bill and water and electricity privatisation. On electricity privatisation, N V C O played an important role in bringing together voluntary organisations representing consumers of the service with environmental organisations. N C V O works to improve the effectiveness of voluntary organisations at all levels by providing support through advice, training, and consultancies, on very wide variety of issues, and problems. This includes advice on management, financial management, new technology, legal, personnel and other issues. Let me give you a few examples of the way in which our departments work. For many organisations, the first port of call is the legal department, which this year has continued to receive a range of enquiries on charity formation, interpretation of constitutions, company law, trading activities, and the contracting out of services, amongst others. During this year, the legal department has had up to three hundred active cases in hand at any one time, and this shows no sign of slowing down. Our management unit has played a key role in the development of efficient and effective management within the sector. Over this year, the unit has built good links with the Open Universities, and others developing management resources. It is working to ensure that management training is relevant to the sector's real needs and is more widely available. Advice through workshops, training and consultancies is a cost effective means of taking N C V O's expertise to those who need it most. An example of this is the Local Development Unit's short courses programme which organised over one hundred courses last year, through local centres and local trainers. We all know and we all experience that voluntary organisations are changing and are having to change. We're having to become in many ways increasingly professional in a competitive world. The increasing impact of this greater professionalism particularly on salaries for instance has led to a consultancy being provided by N C V O's Personnel Unit, on appropriate levels of pay in one organisation. Each week in addition to the many requests for advice N C V O receives, hundreds of information enquiries about the work of N C V O, about the work of its specialised units, and the work of the voluntary sector as a whole. Our information and intelligent unit receives an average of two thousand letters and over four thousand phone calls each year, as well as countless visitors to the library, many from overseas. The enquiries have been from those in government, both central and local, researchers as well as students, and schoolchildren. Our specialist units also receive many requests for information, and our newest project, WasteWatch has been no exception. The awakening of interest in green issues has meant that WasteWatch in its second year of operation, has seen a dramatic increase in enquiries on waste recycling. Many of those enquiries coming from schoolchildren, which prompted WasteWatch to develop an information pack for use in schools, to ensure that future generations are less wasteful of the world's resources. This year, we launched a new information bulletin, N C V O News, which our Chairman today said, you're surrounded by, and I'm extremely embarrassed by. A monthly publication, containing information and articles on the voluntary sector. Over two thousand organisations receive it, your initial response has been very encouraging, and many people saying within the sector, that it is essential reading. We try and produce a wealth of information and research both for and about the voluntary sector. One report which everyone in N C V O and many more besides wouldn't be without, is the Voluntary Agencies Directory, from which N C V O publishing in print, Bedford Square Press puts out. We try and bring the voluntary sector together to discuss areas of common concern, and a major event in April was training for employment nineteen eighty-nine. The first national voluntary sector on employment training. Another issue of concern to many organisations is the government's review of the National Health Service. The subject again of a conference in April, the N H S and the Voluntary Sector, the Next Forty Years. The conference enabled voluntary organisations who attended to consider the implications of the review for them and their work. I happened to chair that conference, and I think I was surprised by the depressing effect that this reform was seen to hold for so many of our membership, particularly the smaller, local voluntary organisations. The international flavour of our work was much in evidence at the first Johns Hopkins' International Fellow Inthralenthropy Conference held in London in July. We contributed to the programme of this major event, jointly sponsored by the charities, Aid Foundation, and the Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore. Now let me for just a few minutes, look forward if that's not too presumptuous for a chair who is moving out. Over the coming year, we expect to consolidate and develop this work. Much work will be necessary to help voluntary organisations devise appropriate funding structures, to support and an increasingly central role in service provision, and to respond effectively to the outcome of the government's efficiency scrutiny. We will be promoting debate on Charity Law issues, and on how voluntary organisations should organise and manage themselves in order to respond to the contract culture, which is being created by changes in the organisation of Community Care, the N H S, the role of local authorities, and other fields. We also intend to play a full part in the debate around the single European market, and nineteen ninety-two. As we move towards the next century, voluntary organisations will need to develop further their contribution not only to our national life, but also to the international community. Against these dramatic changes, we intend to remain at the centre as an effective resource for the voluntary sector, and an important bridge between the sector and others. Voluntary organisations, speaking on the basis of our wide experience in local communities and in national life, are an influential voice which is respected throughout society. Ours is a voice which cannot be ignored, but if we are to use our influence to full effect we must both recognise and be capable of using our strengths. This is where we at N C V O feel we can play a vital role by helping the voluntary sector to recognise this shared interest and above all to act cohesively. For the last three years, N C V O has been at the centre of the critical debates. If we build on and enhance that experience we will be in the right position to face the new decade with confidence and vision. In November nineteen eighty-six, I was elected to succeed Peter Jay as Chairman of N C V O. This year, the call of other duties compel me to step down. I feel that, a very reluctant decision in many ways, but it is, I can assure you, a realistic one. I have found the experience of working in the voluntary sector, first of all as Chair of C V S N A, and vice-Chair of N C V O, for I think about five or six years, and finally as Chairman, in many ways on top of all my other work, exhausting. But in many ways it's been enlightening, exciting, stimulating, and above all enjoyable. I think you would agree that it would invidious to single out any one person to thank. There are N C V O members and staff, my fellow honorary officers and executive members, and so many others who have made it such a rewarding time. Above all I would like to thank the sector for your friendship and warm support, and I have every confidence that Sir Jeffrey, my successor, I assume that resolution two will go through unan , unanimously, will be car , will be able to carry forward with your warm support, the vision I tried to outline for the next year. Finally Chairman, I formally move that the Annual Report for nineteen eighty-eight eighty-nine, be received and adopted, that the statements of account for eighty eight, eighty nine, be received and adopted, and that Touche Ross and Company be appointed auditors for the ensuing year. Thank you all very much. I now call upon Jeffrey Foster, er, honorary treasurer to second that resolution. Thank you. The accounts that you have for this year, have been rearranged. They've been rearranged and now comply with the statement of recommended practice on accounting for charities. I commend this statement to you, those of you who are responsible for the accounts of your organisations, I hope you will also seek to comply with the, the standard, so that the charities of all organisations, the accounts of all charities can be seen clearly, so that er, you can understand the activities of your organisations from the accounts, and so that one charity can better be compared with another charity. End of commercial though. The effect on our own accounts is that we now show all the mainstream activities of the Council together, and they are then separated out from the entries for all the other funds, appeals, and trust funds and so on. This enables us to show clearly the most important features of the accounts which are the volume of the mainstream activity of the Council, and I'm sad to say the deficit that we incur on that mainstream activity. Last year, I reported to you a deficit of three hundred and thirty thousand. Over ten percent of the turnov , turnover of the Council, and which was in fact doubled from the size of the deficit from the year before that. I had hoped this year to be able to report a turn round and some substantial progress towards our target of achieving a nil deficit for the financial year nineteen ninety-one ninety-two. In fact though, we have merely halted the trend of increasing deficits rather than reversed it, and the deficit for the current year is three hundred and forty four thousand. The reasons for this deficit are largely associated with the, the trend of pay and price increases outstripping our income, and outstripping our projections of what we would have to spend. I think the, this is quite well illustrated by the figures on employees, where the numbers employed fell by getting on for ten percent, though our spending on employees remained about the same, partly as a result of pay increases, partly also, as a result of changes in the profile of grades of the staff at the Council, and a movement towards better staff, better paid, and then finally the saving we make each year as turnover of staff occurs, and we don't have to pay salaries during the handover period from one person to another, that saving that has reduced because the turnover of staff has reduced. I have to say also that the future looks even tougher for us. The current trend of pay and price increases is more than we had hoped, and it's, it's certainly more than er, than er, the planned increase in our income will cover, and I have to say that the rate of turnover of staff has reduced even further and so we will be spending more on staff for that reason than we had planned. Nevertheless our target of erm, achieving a nil deficit by nineteen ninety-one ninety-two does remain, and therefore radical action is required to enable the Council to continue to deliver services effectively in the context of continued financial constraint. And we will therefore need to exercise great judgement and realism in the assumptions we make in planning for the future. Not only on, on the expenditure and the changes required, but also on planning our response to changes which will happen in the future, because it is unlikely that we will ever be able to forecast everything which will happen to us exactly. The deficit this year was met from the legacy fund and the appeal fund. The appeal fund contributed two hundred thousand which is its target for annual income. The balance was met from the legacy fund. Overall if you look at the balance sheet, it still appears quite healthy, erm, nevertheless, I must point out that the balance sheet is composed largely of funds with specific purposes, and these specific purposes do not include simply propping up deficits on the mainstream activities. So we can't use the funds in our balance sheet, simply to carry on the way we are, we have to change. And we need to use the reserves that we do have in the balance sheet, we need to spend them wisely in order to achieve our objectives, our objectives for change, and we must recognise that they can only be spent once. Nevertheless I would like to end on, on a brighter note, erm, those of you who are avid students of the accounts will have spotted the contingent liability of twenty eight thousand six hundred and sixty. Basically we are required to report anything erm, any liability which we know about, which doesn't actually formally have to appear in the main accounts but which could arise in the future. I'm happy to say that this, this matter which arose from a misunderstanding on the basis of a grant from the European Social Fund. This matter has now been resolved and no liability exists for the Council. I therefore second the, the first resolution, that the report and accounts should be adopted and the auditors should be reappointed. Thank you erm, Jeffrey. Now er, before I put the resolution to the vote er, er, I'm sure that all of us would welcome any comments or suggestions or questions that any of you might wish to put to us here. So, let's have er, anyone who wishes to indicate that? I think in my experience, this is unique. Erm, don't hold back,it's your opportunity. Alright, well then er, with that expression, of what I hope to be confidence,, in erm, the management of our affairs over this last year, erm, let me put the resolution at, as on the paper before you, I won't read it again. Resolution number one to the meeting, those in favour? Er, those against? That appears to be carried unanimously. Thank you for that. Now it would be invidious of me to er, speak at any rate at this juncture, er, on resolution two, that is the appointment of honorary officers, but I understand that Elizabeth Davies er, is ready to propose it. We've just had a remarkable vote of confidence I think, in management but N C V O, like many organisations relies very heavily on the abilities, energy and commitment of its honorary officers. We have been and are very well served in N V C O. Our President, Sir Kenneth , our vice-presidents, and in particular, the Chair, the Vice-Chairs, and Treasurer, give us a great deal of their time, and I do mean give, as they work for many hours on behalf of N C V O without payment. I hate to think what effect it would have on our deficit if it included realistic costings of the value of their time. And we really do appreciate it. Our two Vice-Chairs, Barbara , and Kay are well known to all of you. Towers of strength and energy, whose experience and judgement is invaluable to us. Our Treasurer, Jeffrey Foster, has the sort of job usually described as thankless. Persuading others to accept the hard financial facts of life is not usually a very popular job, but he does it with great tact and skill, and under his guidance I do believe that our deficit is under control, and that it will be reduced. We do thank him most sincerely for his work. I am very glad that all three of these people are willing to stand for office again. Alan Morgan, our Chair since nineteen eighty-six and active in the organisation for years before, is not standing this year as Chair, for a very happy reason which you all know about from the erm, literature on your seats. He will be missed although the contribution he has made will remain with us in the present form of N C V O, to which he very greatly contributed. I'm glad he's agreed to stand as a Vice-President. A candidate for the first time for the Chair that Alan has left is Sir Jeffrey . New to N C V O perhaps, but with a wealth of experience in government, industry and the voluntary sector. He began his career originally as a journalist, working for the B B C and the Financial Times, before he moved into industry. He has strong interests in education, and management training and much experience of negotiating with government, something that we all need in N C V O. For some years he's been a member of the Council for Voluntary Service Overseas. I know that all his experience will be called upon in the new role he's ready to undertake on behalf of us all. We very much appreciate his willingness to join us. I have great pleasure in proposing the honorary officers for appointment as they are printed on your order paper. Thank you and now Colin , er, is er, to second this resolution. Hello, yes, right, thank you. I can do no more than endorse the statement made by the proposer and would just like to formally second the proposal resolution number two. Thank you. Erm, does any member of the Council wish to make any comment on this resolution before I put it formally to the vote? Very well, I will put it then to you, that er, resolution two as printed on your order paper, should be approved by the Council, those in favour? And those against? Well that's seems also to be carried unanimously. And on behalf of all those who have received this support from you, I should like to say thank you. Now there are two other things I want to er, say at this juncture. Or rather two other people to speak of. You will have read what I think to be a very reasoned and properly enthusiastic tribute to Alan by Peter his predecessor in the Chair, in this number of N C V O News, which incidentally I think is er, er, er, a considerable step forward from the various er, experiments, and the like that we have er, conducted over the years. Alan and I served er, together as er, deputy Chairs, or vice-Chairs or whatever the appropriate words are for several years er, and I erm, well I think I would adopt the words that he used about the experience that he has had in the Chair, to whit, that his companionship and his contribution to our affairs has been stimulating, enlightening and particularly enjoyable. Erm, I'm very glad that his er, departure from the Chair does not signify any lessening in his commitment to er, our work and activities. It is a big job, it doesn't just mean changing the colour of your stock, er, and it's difficult to think of erm, er, Alan wearing the purple so to say, but erm, I'm sure he, I went to his consecration in York about two months ago, it was a very moving and er, enjoyable occasion and he's erm, er, now entered upon that inheritance. I can hardly forebear, I'm sorry for, if it's er, a bad pun, but er, I can hardly forbear to say that it may be that I, that diocese can do with what one might describe as a dash of the Robin Hood's, which I think Alan may er, bring to it. So Alan you go with our warm thanks and our very best wishes for a future which I know will be as valuable to the church as it will lead to a gap in our ranks which it will be difficult to fill. Now then erm, if anyone erm, can perhaps achieve that objective, I think it is your, our new Chairman, Jeffrey . One of the things he, er, did, er, as was remarked erm, by er, Barbara , was erm, to erm, er, be a broadcaster and journalist, many years ago now Jeffrey. Well I also was er, er, a producer then in the B B C and so he and I had some cheerful encounters at that time, since when he has obviously gone from strength to strength. I need not bore you with er, a recital of his many accomplishments, I just would single out one additional one, and that is, his sterling work for the Royal Society of Arts, er, its shorter name, erm, of which he has pioneered really, the development of an activity described as industry matters. Thus to bring to all our attention how much it matters for the encouragement of arts, commerce and trade which er, for manufacturers which is the full title of the Royal Society of Arts. So we're very lucky indeed, I say without any hesitation whatever, that Jeffrey has been willing to take on this Come in. Good morning Doctor. Good morning. Now young lady, how are you today? Alright thanks, Doctor. Good. Good. How are you? Alive. Well. Causing Well, that's . trouble. Causing trouble. from the time he gets up Ah! in the morning till he goes to bed at night That's right. Ah. Doctor. I'll need that. That's sounds ominous. I've got the post from the hospital to get and medication from them, Doctor. Ah, God, I don't know how you take your job. Well, her heart sounds good. She said she was going to advise medication. Mm. Her heart sounds absolutely I wish to God I'd I wish like that, Doctor. Mm. Mm . Right. Now, Doctor, That's fine. can you tell me? In the mornings I'm still all doolally, that's the only word I could find for it Doctor. I'm imaging all sorts of things. I hate wond wond wond wonder what's happening and I'm . I don't want to stay in the house and all this. Now, you've given me Stelazine I'm not sure when I'm taking it, Doctor. Last thing at night. The the three of them? Mhm. Three tablespoons. Three teaspoons. Last thing at night. That's it. I, I was taking one after breakfast, one after lunch and one after dinner. Er But it's not it's in the mornings. No. I think I think if you took one in the morning and then two at bedtime. That's . Yeah. That, yeah. That's just Will that work out to ? as good. That's just as good. And will this? Will this? This feeling of panic Yes. That'll disappear. What? Why am I coming in the room? I went to walk on Sunday evening with my daughter round the estate, and I came back and couldn't get a, a breath when I came in panicked and it was a f it was a horrible feeling. Mhm. Now, I'm getting that quite regularly, is that because of chest? Or is it a ? What is? What ? It's, it's, it's just a nervous reaction. It's just a nervous reaction. Yeah. The erm Pardon me for saying so, that's a lovely pen. I'm plain daft. Yes, it is, isn't it? Are you? Yeah. Sorry, you No it's, it is it's, it's It's a beautiful balanced pen. Yes. It's the only one I like. Yeah. I have about forty pens at home. And it's a, a nice, I, no Do you collect them by yourself or? I don't, I don't collect them. People just give you them. No. I, I tried to find one that Well, I got Clare got one for dad. A Waterman, what one is that Doctor? I've no idea. See what I mean? I've no idea. It's I'm sorry for being nosey. I'm terribly No. cheeky. No. It's one it's o one of the drug companies. and er It's a beauty. like that one. Feel the weight of it. Feel the weight of it. Right. That's a good pen, that's plain Doctor. Mhm. Mm, I like that. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Oh . No. It's er for years and Now years and years I've tried to get a pen I was comfortable with and She got in Prince's Square and it's a, it's a good one. He's like that Oh yes. he wanted one that was, that was balanced. But it's not as good as that. Oh I'm sure it is. Ada adamantine just slightly different. And I mean I paid a hundred odd pounds for it Aye. and it's no help at all. But this one I like. Doctor, will I be alright? I I mean am I ? Oh, you'll be alright. Will this go away Doctor? Yes. Yes. But you take your Stelazine that's the se that's the secret. Use your Stelazine Last weeken is, is dietotectalitis attached to diet? Cos really I, I was awfully ill with it last night . They don't they don't really know. They don't know. Some people find that if they take tomatoes Chocolates. Chocolate. some . Could be anything. Chocolate. Sweets. Red wine. Well wine and I Er are not . Eggs. Cheese. I've known people who have been upset by, you know, Yeah. b all all of those. And does this thing go away or does it stay for ? Ah, it comes and goes. Thousands of . Last week I was quite ill, I people Ev everyone gets some spells. Yes. people . Everyone gets spells when th they have cramps and upset It was just stomachs and Oh, I'm going to go off my head. No. No. That's not the dietotectalitis Ah. That's not the dietotectalitis nervousness on the bowels. No, it's the nervousness causing the trouble with the bowels. Ah, Oh, the other, all that's up here. And goes down the way. We'll need to get a transplant in here. Yeah. So it's two can I take . I couldn't take any more Stelazine Er . Well I'll come back in weeks and . have a go . Yes. Aye. You could take Say two er if you take your morning one . the morning till night time. Don't keep me in the house. Don't shut me in. Yeah. If you take your morning one about nine o'clock, you could quite easily take one about three o'clock in the afternoon. And then two before bedtime. And then two before bedtime. Give yourself six hours. Can I come back and see you tomorrow? Yes. Yes. Not at all. No. No. You come back any time. Try to me. Oh, I'll do my, I'll do my best. Yes. Yes. We're going to er go down to York Oh lovely. for two or three weeks. Mm. Son down there. Give me . That's medical. My son has got a phone near the door and ? Yeah. I was confession in the remember rightly? Yeah. asthmatic attacks ? Aha. He's coming up with her next time. Right. The best thing to get, would be er Troleyadan Right Doctor. that's an antihistamine. To keep Troleyadan keep the, all these reactions under, under control. She'll get, you'll get a box in the chemist for about Right. one fifty. Troleyadan Troleyadan I mean it's quite serious. Yes. Oh, yes. It is. Oh, aye,. off her head. Families are strange. Families are strange. Doctor. Cheerio now. Right. Cheerio now. Hope that was recorded. Erm, and this a rematch. A rematch, I like that. I do trust we take on this issue which is opening Okay if we can move then to the agenda then, er, first of all can I wish all members and officers a happy new year and trust you had a, a festive season. Thank you, Chairman, and you, Yes, good health. Erm, item one. Apologies. There are no apologies. Any from the meeting? Everybody's here. Yes, okay. Item two, minutes of the meeting held on the eleventh of October. No, no, those in favour. Yes, agreed with no dissentions, thank you. We move then to item three, which is budgets ninety four, ninety five, and the capital programme marked B. That's my . Well thank you Chair. Erm, I think although members aren't concerned about the proceedings being tape recorded, the officers may be, in terms of you being able to produce a recording at a later date of what we actually say, which may be at variance with the minutes. Aha, hear, hear If we can start into the budget then, I think members will be fully aware of the wider context that the County Council finds itself in, and we're not proposing to rehearse that at any great length for you other than if you wish us to er, run through that again. Focusing in on social services, the points that I wanted to make to start er, to you were first of all the complexity of the community care situation, and you have a separate paper on that which Mr will be going through you, going through with you in detail. It is important that that's understood, and the sorts of issues arising from it are also understood. In essence we've been hit by something like a double whammy over the S S As. First of all the local authority's S S A as you know, has not been as we would have wished it to be, and that gives us less headroom for er, manoeuvring as it were er, with the various committees, and secondly the community care money is now solely distributed through the S S A whereas last year fifty percent of it came relating to usage. In other words the numbers of private beds that we have in the county and fifty percent was related to S S A for the elderly. It's not solely through S S A, and therefore, in line with your general er, problems over S S A, is you're now beginning to see one appear er, potentially in social services. Er, we believe that there is a shortfall, if I can put it that way, in quotes, of some seven hundred and fifty thousand in ninety four, ninety five, over what we would otherwise have expected to get if the previous method of distribution er, had been stuck with. So we er, we'll be highlighting that for you later, and er, we'll be discussing the issues. My main concern is that in fact, it may in itself produce the, er, a diverse incentive. Remember we're supposed to be moving from residential and institutional care to greater use of community and domiciliary care. My concern is that you may, in b fact find yourself in a situation where you're cementing yourself in to residential and institutional care at the expense of domiciliary care, and we'll explain that later to you, er, as we go in. The second point of concern is about children's services. We've still got the Children Act coming through, I know that may appear a bit odd, but that Act was in fact in nineteen eighty nine, but it's come through in a sense on an incremental basis, and it's accepted by the Department of Health and er, the S S I, that indeed, and the Audit Commission, that there are elements in the present settlement for the Children Act. We have got to face up to the Warner Report as well, which is to do with staffing in community homes, and again, that's an issue which we can pick up later, as we go into detailed reports. And finally, as you will know, there is a new Criminal Justice Act which will be coming through, there are new steps that are going to be taken about juvenile offenders. My view is, and it's been all along, that that will put pressure on your budget rather than decrease it, because it will tend to emphasise high cost residential er, solution. The final thing I want to say to you about children's services is, we have to, we have, having great trouble breaking into prevention. We are focusing most of our efforts er, on dealing with the legalistic situations in a sense, the situations in the courts, the situations of child protection, and we're having great difficulty breaking into prevention. Until we do, I would suggest, and it's not just about until we do, then, I don't think we're going to make really serious dint with the number of children that we now have in care. Hear, hear. When we talk about our reductions, we will get to a point where the reductions that are being proposed to you, actually conflict with a number of policy directions that you are wanting to go in, and we'll flag those up to you. If I could give you just two very quick examples of what I mean, there is a proposal to reduce boarding out payments. Now, in effect, that's moving directly against the direction that we want to go in, we want to make greater use of domiciliary er, initiatives for young people, you have another paper on your agenda about teen care, which is showing what can be achieved with the most difficult youngsters. The second one, I just wanted to draw your attention to, was, it had to do with the home help service. Possibly we're looking to reduce home help hours, but this is at a time when, at the same time I'm saying to you, we're having problems with our S T G, our special grant for care in the community. We're trying to maintain people in the, their own, their own homes. We know that's largely what they want, but we're having possibly to move away from that. So I think these are issues that you're going to have to consider very firmly. And the final thing before, from me, before Mr starts for you, I wanted to welcome the fact that for the first year, there is a recognition of demographic growth change for social services, and I think that is most important. Up till now you always had to bid er, for issues arising from changes of growth in the population, and that particularly begins to pick up the issue about the aging population in the county, so if I can welcome that. If I can also finally say to you that if what you are, what, what you are reading in front of you, if these yellow pin pricks, whatever sheets on the budget go through this morning, as they are, you will only then be still spending at S S A level, you are not spending above it. So I think that that's an important point, because I do believe that weight is placed by the government on S S A. I do believe that if you spend under it, you will be told that you had the money er, for the services and so there's no use coming back and er, and making representations. And finally, I think that there is a recognition er, from P and R about the community care issue, but it will be important that we obviously debate that in these papers and discuss it this morning. Now, may I stop there then, and if Mr can come in with the detail. Thank you. Could I just start with the white paper on community care funding because I think, as he said in the introduction, it is a complex subject, erm, and it does involve a lengthy transition period, and therefore in terms of its understanding, I think it's important that members are aware both how the money is coming to us, broadly what we're doing with it, and, and how it is that we've reached the conclusion that there's a great under-funding in the, in the present proposals. Erm, it's important to remember that this is, in financial terms, a four year transition period, and you haven't yet completed the first twelve months. So there is a shortage of hard information in some areas, er, it is a changing situation, and it is one where the Committee is under very clear instruction to extend the alternative care options that it gives to clients, and therefore that again is a complexity in terms of your ability to ensure you've got adequate funding and are directing it in the right areas in, in order to meet, not only the needs of people out there, but the changing needs and what is, Mike has already referred to as being the preferred solutions erm, many of which have not been available to people in the past. Erm, the other important point I think, if by way of introduction, is in paragraph two, and that is, just to make it quite clear that this is a transfer of funding where people previously went to the Department of Social Security and claimed Income Support in order to assist them in accessing services that were provided by the voluntary and private sector. It's not therefore new money that's coming to us, it's, it's money that's already in the system, it's being used by an existing client route, and it's being used to buy a chair that is already there. So there's no element in this in terms of a developing additional service, it's simply channelling the funding of that service to the local authority, where previously it went to the D S S. Erm, paragraph four, I er, refers to the fact that this is very much a joint process. This is something where the local authority is the lead agency, but it does involve, increasingly involve very close joint working with other agencies, particularly in the health authority, and there were various conditions attaching the funds, which have a number of, of purposes, but one of the key ones in terms of where you must spend your money, or a proportion of it, was very much aimed at not destabilizing the existing sector. There is a wish to see a move from residential care to home care and, and home help and community based care, but to see that it's done in an orderly fashion which doesn't destabilize the market that's out there, and doesn't put at risk the care of elderly people who are already using those existing homes. Erm, the financial elements I find complex, I'm sure from discussions with various members, they equally find it complex, but the position is, that in the current year, you have been given access to a specific grant. That grant is ring fenced, it can only be spent on community care defined elements, it includes the recognition that as well as buying care for people, you are for the first time, er, assessing people's needs. In the past, if somebody went to the Department of Social Security, they simply had to show that they didn't have the income to fund their place, and they then received Income Support. Nobody actually looked at them and said do you need the care that you're getting, or the care that you're accessing? So the new element of the system is very much that we, the local authority, the social services department, do now have to assess people's needs before we offer them any sort of care package to address those needs. So, I'm sure members of this Committee have heard this on several occasions as we've introduced the system, but we have had to put in a fairly complex and detailed system of assessing people's needs, producing care packages to meet those needs, offering choice to those people, and responding to that choice, then doing what the D S S used to do, I E, a financial assessment of their ability to meet the costs of that care, and settling our contribution, and we're involved therefore in contracting with the independent sector for purchase of that care, and with the collection of contributions from those individuals, with increasing numbers and increasing complexity. Er, the figures in paragraph five are shown there, but we had a recognition of that additional duty, and a variety of other minor changes which I won't go into this morning, that came through at the same time. Later in the paper I'll be explaining that, whilst there was also a recognition that there was a gradual build-up in the care requirements, there doesn't seem to have been the same explicit recognition that there's been a gradual build-up in the assessment and care management which has an increased ongoing cost in future years. Future commitments are referred to in paragraph six, and this is an, an important factor. When we take somebody, assess their needs and offer them a care package, in terms of the elderly, erm, and more importantly in terms of those with physical disability or learning disability, we have basically got to support that person for the rest of their life, and therefore, the commitment is not just for the current year, the commitment in, in the case of the elderly depending on what is being offered, whether it be nursing home care, or residential care is for several months or years. In terms of people with learning disability and physical disability we're talking about ten, twenty, thirty, forty years in, in many cases. So there is a long-term commitment in those cases. Mike 's referred to the change in grant distribution erm, the position on that is, is it's got a slide which may or not help people in terms of their somebody's standing on it I just love new technology, it's great The screen, the screen's twisted. Yes I, I don't know whether people can see It's the screen, it's the screen is twisted Yes, I don't think there's very much we can do about that . Basically, can people see it, because I don't need to use it to any great extent, Lift that you got let just emphasising the point that can you give George ? No, not that, that's right, that's it probably be a little higher, if that helps. The situation is that in the current year, we're saying we have a distribution of a specific grant which is ring fenced, roughly half of it came to us using er, S S A factors, standard standing assessment factors, and roughly, something of the order of half of it, came to us on the basis of one or two snapshots of what the D S S was spending in Shropshire in terms of supporting people in residential care. It was always the intention that there would be a gradual move from that distribution to one based entirely on S S A, but that's the current year position, where you're getting a specific grant, and it is distributed on those, broadly those two factors. For next year, that grant all moves across and comes to us, distributed through the normal S S A for social services and becomes part of the County Council's revenue support grant. In doing that, instead of being distributed on those two factors, it's all distributed using S S A. Now as a result of that, we always recognize there will be a loss to Shropshire County Council, because we've benefited from the previous distribution, and as far as we can see in real terms we've lost about a hundred and thirty thousand as a result of that move of a specific grant into distribution through your revenue support grant. For next year, we're also getting a further specific grant, which we're showing up here, but instead of continuing the distribution that we've got in the current year, the government have decided that that should be entirely distributed on S S A factors, and again that's been to the detriment of Sh Shropshire. I'm not saying that there wasn't an expectation that there would be a gradual move in there, and ultimately we would suffer and we would lose that level of grant. The difficulty I think that we're facing, is that it's happening in year two of a four year transition period, before we've really got to grips with what the long-term position is, what the overall demands are, and to what degree we are going to be able to model, change, control and, and influence those demands. Erm, so it is, how shall I put it, erm, unfortunate I think, in, in Shropshire's view, that they didn't continue along the distribution on the previous basis. Those two put together, I think we lost about three hundred thousand pounds as a result of the change in distribution. For the following year, the same thing will happen. The bid that to you as a specific grant next year will then itself be absorbed into the base for the following year, and there will be a new specific grant. But we've also been told this year, that there will be year four, beyond this slide, where the same thing could happen again. But ultimately, at that stage, the expectation is that they will say, well the bulk of the D S S monies have now been transferred to local authorities, and can safely be distributed through the normal standard spending assessment distribution, and the revenue support grant for local authorities, so at that stage you will cease to have any specific grant and one assumes that the conditions about where you spend it and how you spend it will also have been removed. But I'll touch on the reason why they don't need those condition in a few minutes. Just referring back to the paper then, we talk in paragraph eight of a grant shortfall. This is not directly related to the three hundred thousand that we've referred to, but obviously in part too. What has happened in the current year is we've started from no involvement with this particular group of clients, and building up where by the end of the year, our best estimate we're approaching six hundred clients so then we have a commitment of providing either residential care or some care package which keeps them out of residential care. Erm, I would have to say that's going to be in the range of five hundred to six hundred, and very much depends to some extent on what happens in the winter months, and I'm sorry to keep stressing this point, but we haven't yet got twelve months' experience of operating this particular change, and until we've got at least a year's experience, and I think one would have to say, that some of the figures need to be portioned, but equally, you can't afford to be too cavalier in terms of your assumptions about that demand might reduce to, and I'll touch a little later on how you control expenditure in those terms. We've therefore looked at experience to date, the best figures available from other agencies, we have close contact with the independent sectors in terms of their expectations of, of numbers, erm, and we have our own staff in the field, who have given us their best estimates of demand for the coming year. We've put those together, we've looked at the staff that we need to administer that particular level of activity, and we've come out with a figure that we think is a reasonable estimate, in fact I would go so far as saying, we think this is the lowest estimate that we can safely put forward, as to our needs for the coming year. They are some seven hundred and fifty thousand pounds less than is explicitly coming to us, either through the grant that's coming into the S S A, the base, or the new specific grant. And if you turn over onto page four,and at last pick up both the graph and the figures that are shown there and if it helps members, I can also put up the figures on the I suspect not, I think there's, it becomes a little small for people. They, they're only replicating the figures within the papers anyway. The position is, looking at appendix one, and if you take the first triangle, which has got nineteen ninety three, ninety four below it, that's showing that we started off with no clients, and then by the end of the year we expect to have a number of people in our care, receiving services, to which we have a degree of commitment. Erm, we have managed that level of activity with assessments, er, care management staff, financial assessment staff, income staff, contracting staff, staff who are dealing with complaints, erm, and, and monitoring er, er, at a cost of four hundred and fifty thousand pounds estimated in the current year. There is no explicit provision in the specific grant for an increase in that. Now we've chosen to spend that amount of money, we didn't have all the staff in place on the first of April, we have recruited them during the year, as demand has risen. We therefore, by the end of the year, will have staff in place where the full year commitment to paying for those staff is in fact some six hundred and eighty six thousand pounds. Erm, and that's shown in the chart in appendix two below the diagram. We will be dealing with all of those existing clients in terms of reassessing both their care needs and their financial ability to contribute to whatever package of care they're getting, as well as taking on board all the new ones who present themselves for the first time in nineteen ninety four, five. So what I've tried to show diagrammatically is that, we start ninety four, ninety five with plans in place, shown by the vertical dotted line on the graph, a number of those will die or leave the system for other reasons during the year, and we've taken a fairly optimistic view I would say, erm, optimistic in the financial sense, that a significant number of those will leave the system during the year. It may not be optimistic in terms of the client's views of it, but that's the position we've taken. But we still are left managing those people in ninety four, ninety five, as well as taking on board the new triangles, the one with the horizontal lines, where we're going to get people presenting themselves for the first time, and requiring services. So we will need to manage the whole of that block to the right of the dotted line, and therefore I think, members will appreciate that we are not going to do that effect, or indeed do it at all, if we simply continue spending at the four hundred and fifty thousand pounds which is the costs that we're incurring in the current year. Erm, our best estimate is that we need the six hundred and eighty six thousand that we're committed to, plus another two hundred and seventeen thousand in terms of additional staff to deal with the additional demand as it comes in. Erm, so that clearly is trying to get across the fact that this is a transitional and phased implementation, where costs are gradually increasing. The importance of having people in to deal with it, is a critical one. The process starts with a needs driven service of somebody being referred to us. Either a self-referral or referred by the G P, or by a consultant, or by the hospital, or one or two other sources. We are required to assess them. We can't turn round and say, sorry we can't afford to assess you, there is a requirement that if somebody presents themselves, we have to assess their needs. If we haven't got sufficient staff in place to do that, there will be delay. Quite clearly we can only do that with the resources available to you, and if the demand exceeds the ability of those resources, they will have to wait. The key area in terms of waiting, I've referred to later in the report, perhaps we can move on to that. It's been highlighted by the Audit Commission, you might pick that up in paragraph eleven, and that is hospital discharges. We are involved in supporting the funding of people who move into nursing homes. Nursing homes are still registered by the health authorities, so their ability to meet, and setting of standards that they're required to meet, are still set by the health authority, registered by the health authority, and monitored by the health authority. Can I ask, erm, where number eleven's gone? Page two Page two of the white sheets. Page two Bottom of page two Bottom of page, page two and the top of page three okay, No, the other way On the white sheets, that's it yes, Ah, I'm sorry for all that, I'm really sorry. The position is that when we admit anyone to nursing home care, they can only be admitted if there is a joint assessment partly by a social worker from this department, partly by either the nurse or G P, or consultant, and the, the key element needless to say in that, in terms of need, is very much the health authority input. Erm, therefore we, to all intents and purposes, cannot actually control the demand at that level, demand will be set by the people committing themselves to the health service, where the health service are assessing their needs, and saying this patient needs nursing home care. Erm, so if we haven't got enough staff to deal with that process, then there will be deadlock in the hospitals. We've got an arrangement with the health authority about the maximum time we will take in assessing somebody for discharge from hospital. We have met that very well in the first nine months of the system. I won't say it's been perfect, it can never be perfect. That's well over ninety percent of the cases have been dealt with in the er, in the timescale that we've set out and agreed with the health authority. We do therefore need to consult with the health authority if we find ourselves in a position where we think we're no longer going to be able to achieve those targets. Erm, the Audit Commission has very much picked on the point that they see a key area of community care success, is in avoiding deadlocking, having adequate discharge arrangements, having agreements with health authorities, and meeting those agreements. So there's not a great deal we can do about that end of, of our responsibilities. And that is the high unit cost end, with the people who move into nursing homes, and obviously our highest cost, with the exception of certain very complex cases on physical disability, erm, where we, we do occasionally get higher cost packages keeping people out of the nursing home. The position therefore is you don't look at residential care, erm, yes, over a period of time we could raise the requirements or the need levels that allow people access to residential care. Erm, that cannot be done overnight, and it's one that clearly needs to be looked at and, and managed and the care needs as stated in that management. The easiest one, and the one undoubtedly is the one that will continue to be used to keep whatever needs that we have presented to us within reasonable financial budgets, will be on the home care, respite care, day care, er short-term emergency admissions, support in the home, and indeed our ability to develop those services. To develop them in a form that meets people's real wishes as opposed to the cheapest option or the easiest available option. So if we do under-fund, and I'm not suggesting in these proposals that there is any major under-funding in the proposals in front of you this morning, but the dangers of under-funding are that, inevitably they will first impact on the end that we are being asked to develop as alternatives. Erm, the final point on the shortfall of funding is as I'm, keep emphasising, forgive me for repeating this, this is going to be year two of a four year transition. If we get it wrong in year two, it will be even more wrong in year three, because the distribution isn't going to alter dramatically in our favour, so if there is under-funding in ninety four, ninety five that we manage, it will present itself as a larger problem in ninety five, six, and an even larger problem in ninety s six, seven, so that needs to be borne in mind . The conditions attaching to grant are that the D S S transfer, eighty five percent of it has to be spent on the independent sector, and there are monitoring mechanisms in place whereby the government is going to assure itself that has happened. Erm, we assume that there will be a similar condition for specific grants for next year. However, when we had the grant announcement, it also announced that the conditions attaching to that grant, would be announced separately. We were in touch with the Department of Health last week and were assured that that announcement was im imminent, that the Minister had not yet agreed what those conditions would be. This is somewhat unfortunate because by the fourteenth of January we are supposed to agree a purchase plan with the health authority, and it's a little difficult to do that in the absence of the knowledge of what conditions are attaching us to where and how you can spend the money. Our belief is that if there is any change it is likely to be a change requiring a certain proportion of the grant to be spent in the domiciliary day care area rather than the residential area to enforce this wish of developing those sort of services. But as yet we've not had an announcement on those, what those conditions are attaching to the use of the, of the grant. And finally Chairman, budget proposals which we've referred to in paragraph fourteen and fifteen are that in recognizing there's a potential estimated shortfall of some seven hundred and fifty thousand, that five hundred thousand pounds be put towards that. Erm, there is also in the Policy and Resources papers that were accepted by Policy and Resources on, on Friday, er, reference to reviewing that five hundred thousand and indeed other changes that I'll come on to later in the budget package. But, what we would say to you I think this morning, Chair, is that in your officers' view erm, yes, we think it is sensible to go forward and manage on the basis of five hundred thousand pounds addition towards that shortfall, we become increasingly nervous if that five hundred thousand pounds is reduced, and because of the uncertainty, again later in the papers you will see still have some contingencies that you could use from savings in previous years, and we will be strongly recommending to you that you retain some of those contingencies because of the uncertainty that still attaches to demands in the community care grants. I mean if we just take a, a breather there maybe for, for some member comments, I mean I think there's some, some elements that members might want to comment on, particularly to do with settle settlement excuse me, the sort of policy direction, and some of the suggestions that, that are going against our policy direction and we have these taken over several years now, and also the issue about the aging population and the, the demographic, graphic growth, and our, our consistency of spending at government standing spending assessment. Er, Malcolm then Mrs . Yes, thank you Chair. Er, I'd, I'd like to refer to paragraph seven on page two, which describes how the S T G for this coming year is going to be distributed just by S S A rather than by the, the two previous formulae together. Erm, with, with a detrimental affect to Shropshire. Now presumably somebody in government or Whitehall has just taken a decision to, to go for it all in one year, I don't know why, I, I don't suppose we're told why, but the, the consequence of the decision is actually going to be that people in Shropshire, our clients and social services are going to pay for that decision, either through paying charges for services that they now get for nothing, or by getting less services, er, and this doesn't seem to be in line with the government's stated aim of, of targeting money where it's most needed. I mean the decision actually has made no difference to government spending in total, it's just the way the cake has been sliced. It seems quite arbitrary, and quite without, without logic. Erm, have representations been made about this? If not, then I propose that we do it. I don't know what good it does, but if enough people do it often enough, maybe they'll talk to us a bit sooner. On, on the point of representation, in fact, er, I think there have been representations made already be those authorities who felt they were disadvantaged in the first case, and so what you've seen with, using this method of distribution, is a switch actually, of expenditure to London boroughs, London boroughs felt that they had lost, er, in the first round of S T G, but now if you look at the overall spread they and the er, Mets have gained. The second point is that the A C C are, are, I think, the second point is that there was a deputation to the Minister yesterday, so if, in a sense it's a little late unless it was picked up by Mr yesterday, it may be a little late to do something for this year, er, I mean obviously next year is I think going to be the er, important issue, and the A C C has already circulated all Shire counties er, it's picked up that this has happened to the majority of counties, although again the south east er, has escaped from that, and it's asking for the sort of figures we're debating this morning. And I know it's their intention to discuss it and to make appropriate representations. Shropshire always tends to lose out because of where we are, er, Mrs . Now, erm, yes, I'd like to pick up a comment made by the Director, erm, he said quite rightly that the prevention factor is really out of the window as far as the budget is concerned, and pro as far as operations are concerned. Am I taking that correctly? I was talking about children's services, yes Yes, yes, well I am too, and that we shall pay the penalty later on if we don't get with us and I feel that erm, as difficult as the budget is, as tight as it is with reduction etcetera, I feel that we should make a positive funding for prevention or something, or er, because I think unless we do start somewhere, and quickly, we are going to pay the penalty at the end of the and so we've got to make a date, you've got to make a year, and if you wait and say and well we haven't got it now, well next year we shall say we haven't got it now, and the next year we'll say we haven't got it now. And I think that somewhere along the line, erm, even if it's only a moderate sum, we should make definite erm, approaches to start the ball rolling in this preventative effect, because I think we're going, every, every budget head in the whole of the county or anythi or anybody else who's got a budget, is going to pay the penalty, so I would like that to see if there's any movement, any way we can address that particular problem, er, during our, our discussions. The other one that worried me a bit, is how are we recr recruiting? We seem to be erm, taking on an enormous number of staff, er, er, at what level are we doing it? How are we doing it? Are we just moving people around from where they were becoming redundant somewhere else? What, I mean, just, you know, what are we doing in the county? What is the format? What is the, er, methodology? What is the, erm, er,, or scale, or whatever? We're just recruiting staff, it's the information about how, I'd like to know a bit more about that. Presumably we recruit well qualified people to be able to do their job Are they? We don't know. at the right rate of pay. Well there's training, isn't there, to give to them? Well, just generally, we haven't restricted recruiting of care staff, in other words, unless we know there's a decision been made about a residential establishment which there hasn't been at present. So obviously if a cook goes, a cook has to be replaced, if a care assistant goes, a care assistant has to be replaced, as long as the population is there. That's the basis I'm talking about new staff the basis, well, that we're working on, on existing staff. New staff in the main, have been connected with care in community, and you've heard really Mr explain to you already what they're doing. We got specific money, in other words, the government flagged up that in the first year, there were going to be infrastructure costs, and so there was a specific allowance made for that, and we've been recruiting gradually, not all at once, over a period of time, as the numbers of people coming into the community care system rise, we've been recruiting new staff there. Now, they're of two sort, there are the administrative staff, the financial staff, in other words, that have to do the physical assessments er, financial assessments which by the way are more complicated now than they were previously, because there's all sorts of different elements and agreements having to be reached with individuals, or charitable institutions or whatever. And the other are the people doing the physical assessments, for example in the hospitals, er, at Princess Royal Hospital in Telford, I think, we had to, I can't remember the exact figure, but we certainly had to increase our staff there, our hospital social workers to secure the throughput that's er, being required. Yes, we do go for qualified staff, er, I'm talking about social work field staff now, er, wherever possible we would go for that. We have about a ninety, ninety five percent, I think, qualified staff, and that has improved over the last eight years from Fifty odd fifty percent I think, er, when we first started. So that's the general direction. We have problems in residential care with particularly, with residential child care, with the numbers of qualified staff. Lack of them. And that was the reason that the government brought in a new initiative after the Warner Report, and there's a specific training grant that you now get to ensure that your training staff, your, your residential staff get trained. But I have to say for Shropshire, it means one I think, er, per year, and that's not going to make a big dent. Any other Sorry can you just repeat? The preventative work. The preventative work. Yes, well you are talking about children's services, but, I, I think if Mr 's going to talk later to this, if you want, but we are absolutely at the moment, we know that eighty nine percent of work at the child care centre is to do with child protection with to deal with it, and by that I mean abuse, physical and sexual abuse, er, concerns about that and a lot of that of course is, is tied up in procedural ways, and we're dealing with events almost after the situation has er, got going, er, and of course, with the courts, you know that we've got duties in relation to the courts, that we, we have to fulfil or else we are the subject of criticism from the er, courts, and we have been rapped at various er, times. So with what we need to break into, we, we I'd like to get Mr as you know with dint of great effort, got er, the er, scheme off the ground, which has taken a lot of, all of us a lot of hard work, er, and we're proposing other schemes at Bexford House. We need to move more into that area of work, that sort of prevention, and we need if possible to move more in partnerships with voluntary organizations, but if we do that, er, then we will have to pay them. You know, they're not going to do it for nothing. I think the problem with erm with prevention and, I mean, and I suspect that, that there is, er, unity of the board in relation to prevention, but we, we don't see the cost savings. The cost saving in the preventative work, er,fall falls later on in the system, and that might not even accrue back to local government, and that's the problem and I think if there was some specific erm, government grants that enabled local authorities to really get to grips with the preventative elements and could should that, that reduced overall government spending on the other end, on the impact end, I mean, I think we would be, we would be sort of making very much headway, but there doesn't seem to be that specific initiative at this particular stage. Perhaps if we can arrive at some sort of specific amounts or some research in that direction, we might Mr Chairman, be able to take representations to government in a more positive way. I mean I think you know, to talk about it in, in terms such as you, I mean quite rightly, you've done so, erm, leaves us with no real impact er, argument. Well, it, it might be that once we've dealt,, once we have dealt and, and are dealing with the budget, it might be that we, we receive some, some papers erm, from the department for future social services reports. Er, we've already got some items on the agend agenda this morning, specifically to do with issue of teen care, but it might be that we look at, at, at a lot earlier maybe some joint reports with other colleagues in education, to look at some innovative work, erm, that if it was specifically ring fenced government grant, we can actually get our teeth into, that would provide a cost saving for governments in the future. Chairman, Chairman, I think that's an excellent idea and I think one to erm, prove ways of cost saving is to involve erm, more nursery education, because one sum spent before five, it apparently costs six pounds or its equivalent . It's probably tied up with education as well But I mean, out of this lot maybe we can look at some Chairman, if we take Mrs, Mrs 's point under the children's services plan which is later in your . Yes, last speaker then, then we'll move on with the budget document, Tom. Sorry, Chair I ju I just would like, a little concerned that er, we've accepted the five hundred pounds, er, the five hundred thousand pounds community care shortfall, where our own calculations originally were six hundred and ninety two thousand, have now gone up to seven hundred and fifty thousand. Er, I've seen other papers where there is a hint that we might be looking for a contribution, er, out of the general budget, er, of that difference, that two hundred and fifty thousand. We're talking a lot of money here and I wonder whether we're a little bit erm, over-optimistic that the five hundred thousand is going to be adequate. Chair, I think have to make a point at this stage, although as I said earlier, we haven't got a complete picture yet. We are estimating as best we can, these figures will change, and indeed they are changing as we try to move towards a more detailed purchasing plan with the health authority, to take in the changes, they may go up, they may go down. That's certainly the best estimate at the moment. I'm happy with the five hundred thousand pounds suggestion, but my view when you come to the papers, if we are able to hold on to the two hundred thousand contingency we've got for community care for the elderly and, and the hundred thousand we've got for bad debts and other figures. I think it's very much linked with the safeguard being that we have got the one year cushion of, of carry forwards sums there to meet any immediate problems within the year, and give ourselves breathing space to, to address those in the longer term. You, you did promise me Mr Chairman, that I could just ask a quick question. Oh, sorry. It was just on, on appendix one, was that, was that in total department part of the care in the community in general, or was it hospital discharge, I wasn't too clear on that? General, mm, general, yes Is the, is the projected grant likely to go up at the same rate as in, as in nine ninety four, ninety five? There's a sort of fifty percent increase, it seems a, you know, a huge increase, but is that going to settle down? It will settle down and reduce Chair, through you, that the, the, the national figure has been announced that the, for the future year, and it does recognize the fact that there is an assumption that the number of people who D S S continues to support directly will have fallen by thirty five percent by the end of this year, and there will be a further fall, and the amount that's transferred is very much related to here's the total available, how much does the D S S need to hold on to meet its commitments, and how much is left to distribute to the local authorities. So it will be a smaller figure in terms of the specific grants in ninety five, six. Okay? Thirty five percent of total? Thirty five percent of people supported by the D S S, they are assuming will, will not be there at the end of the first year. I think they're optimistic in terms of that point. If, if we can move on then. Chair, if I could move on then to the budget proper, and I apologize for the numbering. As you'll appreciate it, we've put one or two papers together into one paper, and therefore the numbering tends to repeat itself, so we're on page one again, but under the heading of the budget for ninety four, ninety five. I would draw members' attention to the notes in block type at the head there, and that is you are working to guidelines which have been agreed by the Policy Panel and Policy and Resources. They are guidelines, there are no final decisions to be taken in terms of the implementation of a number of these, but this is the Committee's opportunity to view those in detail and make its recommendations through proposals to Policy and Resources Committee and on to Council. Final decisions as always on your budget will be taken at the Council meeting in February. The guidelines are set out in paragraph two, in terms of the, the strategy. This is within, as members will be aware, the overall financial position that the County Council finds itself in, of having to get its expenditure within the cap, and the fact that the increase in cap for the authority as a whole, does not in any way, mirror the increase in standard spending assessment for Social Services Committee, where we have been fortunate in terms the increase for this county, erm, and a variety of other factors which, which mean that it would be nice to think that where S S A increases for this Committee, it also increases for the County Council. I think if that were the case, you would have far fewer problems, but er, of course this isn't the position. Paragraph three looks at the guidelines in detail, and starts with the additions, and as Mr said earlier, we do welcome the fact that there is an explicit mechanism for the cost of client number increases in social services in the coming year. We have got a growing, ageing population, and that does put further demands on your services, and those are shown there in summary form for the client groups, and there are more details on those when we get to the additions and reductions lists on pages thirteen and fourteen, later. So I don't intend to go into the detail at this stage. Other variations shown there, again we will look at in more detail, but essentially these are loss of income, grant income, or additional expenditure, in terms of registration inspection in community care, er, to continue either existing services, or to meet unavoidable legislative change. The total there, therefore, for this Committee, is proposed guideline growth of one point five, five, five million. M I S G. Yes,to think, M I S G is mental illness specific grants, in case we pick that up later, and the E S F is the European Social Fund grant. Over the page, We'll definitely have an addition in there. But they are recorded in full later, Chairman in the summary, I've used the abbreviation Yes. Chairman, if they are recorded all later, it took me quite a long time to discover them, could we have , abbreviations just written out, it makes it very difficult for me to , I'm not used, I mean, I'm I take the point Chair Just in brackets, sort of just in pencil or Euro or something. I don't think education comes into it, Chairman, because they change them every other year anyway, They make them up as they go along. It'll confuse them You're obviously The position on page two then shows the reductions targets, where we've got a, a target for efficiency savings of hundred and thirty five thousand, service reductions on income generation costing six hundred thousands, and a proposal that we use a hundred and eighty thousand of the Committee's carry forward savings in the first year, erm, that is obviously a one year only reduction, and indeed a Policy and Resources Committee and a report of treasurer to that committee, did make the point that committees will be aware that they must use the carry forwards in funding reductions in four, five, will have to matched by service reductions in future years. In terms of the papers in front of you this morning, Chair, the position is that, that is addressed over the three year period, and the figures do fluctuate between years, so there is a, as we'll see later in the paper, there is a, a net expenditure total in year one which increases in year two, but then is offset by a, a reduction in year three. Er, paragraph four Chairman, is the point that Policy and Resources when it was addressing the fact that all of the proposals from committees that's currently within the guidelines did still leave a shortfall between projected expenditure of the County Council and the capping limit. And the suggestion to this Committee was that it looked, that it looked further at the five hundred thousand pounds guideline that's been set to address the apparent shortfall on community care funding, and also that you should look at further service reductions and their implications erm, of reductions of a further two hundred and fifty thousand, and those are again picked up later in the paper. Erm, the salmon pages set out the proposed strategy to meet those guidelines, and as I say, we'll pick those up as we move through. Chair, paragraph seven, the guidelines on capital. Erm, we didn't have those when these papers were prepared, but the position is, that there is a guideline for new starts for this Committee, of some seven hundred and eighty six thousand pounds, with two hundred thousand being set aside to go towards architects and other fee costs associated with that programme, and the existing programme. Erm, Chair, I think when we come to the capital programme you will be proposing that the P A G advise you and the Director in terms of producing a package which meets those guidelines, erm, and given the opportunity to look at them in some detail. But there will be an opportunity for members to look at the present programme which will need pruning to get it down to those guidelines, and they can obviously make any comments they wish to, or any advice they wish to give the P A G in terms of individual schemes or the detail. Erm, the rest Chairman, is showing the erm, contents and the main budgets I think. If you wish to er, spend time on those. Moving to page three, is the revised estimates for your Committee for the current year, and you'll see there, the format is somewhat to the one you've seen in future years, we have had In the past Sorry, in I'm getting ahead of myself already. It's different to, to the way you've seen in the past. Erm, as well as introducing care in community we also have the joy of putting a new standard form of accounts for social services during the current year, and this is a national requirement that I think does make for logical presentation, and does differentiate between what is termed service strategy and regulation, before put management functions that you will be required to incur whether you are a direct provider of the services or not, and then the costs of actually providing or commissioning services for the various client groups. Erm, within that Chair, you will see that there are various variations, erm, totalling a net increase of four hundred and eighty thousand in the year. If I could refer you to the block beneath there on carry forwards, you started this year, bringing forward savings and under-spendings and various other contingencies of just over one and half million. You have during the year, er, both through this Committee, and through Resources and Management sub-committee, agreed expenditure of seven hundred and seventeen thousand from that contingency. Erm, the reason that that doesn't tie in with the four hundred and eighty thousand pound er, increase in spending is that offsetting that seven hundred and seventeen thousand that you've funded from your contingency, there is also a net reduction in spending by the Committee because of the changes in the devolution of central department charges and their allocation through committees, well less have been allocated to Social Services Committee in total. Erm, the position then on carry forwards, Chairman, is that you have a number of specific contingency provisions that we are holding, funded from these previous savings. As I've already said, I would wish the Committee to hold on to those specific ones relating to community care at this stage, until we have a more certain picture. I think from the County Council's point of view, the safeguard is there is no proposal to make those available for other spending within the committee and therefore, if hopefully we do not need to access them during the year, they are still available for Council in future years to, to meet other spending requirements. Erm, there are also provisions in there for the Children Act, where we are holding a contingency of eighty two thousand. I would draw members' attention to the spending on Children and Families Committee during this year, which in fact, is net some three hundred and nineteen thousand above the base budget. We have had considerable difficulty in the current year, in meeting the demand upon children's services, and we have met those difficulties, in no small part, from the use of carry forwards within the year, and before you come to looking at reductions in services on the salmon papers, the children's service is going to, and in fact is doing a redirection of its funding to ensure that it stays within its base budget in future years. That does mean that they have already had a very difficult exercise in terms of looking at an, an efficiency effectiveness distribution of funding and how they manage the service, and that's very much tied in with the children's services plan, which Mike referred to earlier on, and which is later on the agenda. Erm, so I would certainly be asking you to keep some contingency provision in that area, because we project some very expensive one-off demands on certain elements of children's services. Erm, disability and mental health has a specific contingency of fifty thousand, and again this is addressing the point that we have tried to reduce expensive out-county placement, erm, successfully. But it only needs one that you cannot avoid, and you'll be spending said fifty thousand pound plus per annum in respect to that one patient. Erm, and the other one is the registration and inspection, where in the current year we have access to the best part of sixty five thousand pounds from to meet registration inspection, and you'll see in the additions list, that, that there is er, a bid in there for the ongoing costs of that. It's substantially to do with registration of inspection duties arising from the Children Act, the registration and inspection of childminders, erm, workplace creches, and and Mike can go into detail on that if members wish. But er, it is an area where we are required to register and inspect, and unfortunately if we're not happy on one these inspections, we are also required to, to pursue those, and ensure that there is improvement or cessation of the service. Erm, that on the carry forwards leaves a balance in hand of a hundred and eighty thousand not specifically earmarked, and, and I must say, it's up to you to decide what should be specifically earmarked. But that is the hundred and eighty thousand that was shown in the budget deductions of being a contribution towards the guideline in the first year. Over the page Chair, within er, those totals there are a number of proposals for reductions in c certain areas of spending and increases in others, which are in excess of the amount which has been delegated to, er, to the Director to agree, and which needs this Committee's approval erm, and would then go on to er, Resources Management for, for their agreement. There are net nowhere where we are using both one-off and fortuitous savings in certain budget heads to meet unavoidable expenditure we come on within the year, and therefore keep within the Committee's overall cash limit for the year. And I hope Chair, that those will meet with members' approval this morning, but we will need to take a resolution on those. Right. If members have any specific questions on the revised estimates and those details, I'd be happy with colleagues to, to them. Comments? One question, and that is that I noticed on page three, er, you've got your revised estimate with effect in ninety four, five, you've got nothing. Correct, the position Chair, is that we are, as I said earlier, endeavouring to pull all those committees overspending back in line with the budget in ninety four, five. Therefore, we're not, other than the specific items that appear on your additions list, we're not looking for any growth in the base budget at this stage, over and above that that's already built into your budget base. Could we, could we have a comment on page four on the proposed two and three erm, I mean, section levels of staff sickness. Are we monitoring this? In one case in the community homes it says staff absence, and I'm not clear what there is for training purposes, but I would hope that we are checking, or was this simply before Christmas, or what? This Chair, has er, been a particularly difficult year with a, with a higher than average level of er, sickness, er amongst staff. Erm, the result er, was that we had to bring in relief staff, and other staff have had to work overtime. Staff absences actually refer in the main, to er, unfortunate situation of a number of staff this year, who have er, been suspended, er, because of er, various matters, er, which have had to be worked through. For members' information, we have asked the Manpower Services er, Unit to undertake an exercise on the level of staffing in our homes, as much as anything, because of the frequent reference in visitor's reports to the situation on staffing levels in our children's homes. Er, this is er, drawing to a conclusion, and er, in time, the results of that exercise will be, be reported to committee. But you're having because I think if we are going to carry on using them, these absences should be translated into suspensions, and if that there's any problem we do know that situation pertains. Erm, but what I'm really thinking, is somebody looking actually into the sickness and is this a question of long-term sickness or are we dealing with outbreaks of flu. I know at last erm, budget meeting we talked about doing so for the entire health survey, because really the amount of money spent on sickness is quite astronomical, and one does need to look at this when you're having to meet your budget. I fully accept that and we hope, but I hope some monitoring is taking place. That exercise Chair, I can assure Mrs , has been taken alongside the Manpower studies exercise. Number four issues. Okay, and number four. Do you do this Paul? Two on page four Sorry, we have some, I think is we, one of the concerns has been, I've been visiting has been the need to, feeling of security in many factors. If one person's on duty, you would a situation where really that was a bit of risk quite often, and er, it's not an acceptable thing but er, I totally agree we need to agree very carefully if one's wise to whether the initial staffing is adequate or whether it is case a of people not having The position, Chair, if I can just quickly through you, say in terms of this budget, we do make a provision for absences, because obviously we do get sickness absence. Of course, In a number of cases, there is a minimum level of, of staffing that is required, and therefore it isn't a matter of managing until the person comes back, you do have to replace. We have had an exceptional level erm, probably the reasons such as stand-by and maternity absences and a variety of others which essentially are above the level that we normally budget for. What they were given to you? And if that work had been started, because as far as I'm concerned sickness does not cover maternity. So we need, it's simply a question of pulling in on the reasons for this, if it's maternity, it's suspension, it gives us much more understanding than simply globally assuming everybody who's away is sick. I take the point Chairman, and, and suggest by the criticism we will try and get more explicit detail in the future. In salaries or joint finance funding, so where there are differences it is almost entirely down to those two factors. It does give members an indication of the level of expenditure on particular services, and for the first time, we are showing within these papers, in terms of the budget, the amounts that you're spending on the direct provision of services, and the amount you're spending in terms of services that you buy in, and don't provide directly, and this is shown on, on the service page. Needless to say in terms of elderly, learning disability and physical disability, there will be an increasing amount bought in, as the community care transition er, continues. Erm, nothing Chair that I would want to refer to other than the, on page eleven we're showing a figure there for management and support. This is both central management costs and those direct support costs within the divisions, and within the services, that is recharged over provisions of service, so that you're getting a true cost, in terms of your costs of running the elderly services, the children and family services, so they include both directly man management costs. In those, there are a number of staff who are, what we would call front line health based staff, who are there in supporting social workers and providing direct services to your client group. They, the vast majority of them are not Shire Hall based er, administrative staff or what I think is generally er, the view, er, the general view of, of management and support. Indeed, in looking at the structuring in a different guise, we have got erm, something less than seven percent of total costs, that relate to erm, indirect management and administrative costs. Er, and we are not in terms of any comparative statistics that are providing costs on management and support in any way a high spender vis a vis other local authorities,. The only other element in there, Chair, is we, we've shown the specific grant coming in, er, in the figure that it's been announced. Two people have indicated that. Mrs to establish. Erm, yes, I'd like to, erm, ask a question and suggest that the change in the first paragraph, Service Strategy and Regulations. Erm, I feel that heading is including two different, what I believe is two different headings. For instance cost of meetings to the Committee, direct of preparation of the budget at strategic level, and jump to strategic information and research planning and liaison with other bodies for planning should be one heading. But there're quite definitely staff implications much more obvious and much more erm, identifiable in registration and inspections units, and the complaints procedure, and I feel that should be two, two sub- headings if you like, two, two elements. Certainly when you get into the detailed budget, then these are clearly separated. This is a summary of the detailed budget. The reason it's in this format, is this is now the national standard form of accounts for social services, and the thinking behind it is, whether you were an authority that provided all of its services directly at one extreme, or at the other extreme, you were in a party that provided no direct services, and bought them all in from other providers, you would still need to meet, to meet those costs. The costs of running your committee, your requirement to have legislation inspections and arm's length service, and providing independently, er, to produce budgets erm, to monitor on a variety of other matters. So what is incorporated in there, is the minimum that you could ever survive on in terms of running a totally enabling authority. My own view is that it could, it be a great deal more than that, but this is within the, the erm, nationally prescribed requirements in terms of getting some consistency into local authority accounts. Erm, going on going on Well I want to move on cos you know it's Yes, I'll be very quick. The preventative, the word preventative comes in so frequently, and particularly in the children's services, I agree with the second one, it but I would like to have a more detailed report er, on that second element which is on page seven, the last item before you get to elderly people. But erm, I would like to know a little bit more about both those preventative things, and in the light of what we've said previously. Chairman, we can give Mrs a breakdown of the budget on those two. Mr I just want to ask Mr Chairman, and I don't want to start er, er, a political debate or anything, erm, the specialist placements erm, three forty six thousand, how many is that catering for, I presume that's the figure that we've all been talking about, in these three issues? The whole But it seems to be a lot less than it might have been last year, I mean I, do we know how many that's, we're talking about? We've budgeted this year, er, for a maximum of six, but as Committee were informed at the last meeting, that number has exceeded during the year, erm, and that did create some financial difficulties, but that is the budget for specifically for six out-county placements, which not only do grown people in specialist er, accommodation such as secure accommodation, but also younger children with disabilities. I understand. But if it, obviously that bill increases if more add to it. Yes And, and there's residential care that the er, on page nine, the specialist residential places, can you just give me a sort of, what that is for? That is People with physical and sensory disabilities, Cheshire Homes, Right, erm, yes, it's for adults I think, and it's such things as Leonard Cheshire Homes, er, and I can't thing of any other, Star and Garter Star and Garter I'm being told from the right here, those sort of very special places we don't provide them, we buy in from, from outside. Thank you. Okay. If we go over the questions then on, on that. If we can move on then to potential net variations. An interesting title Chairman, the salmon sheets, if you're happy with the base that we start from. I would say on page twelve, it's perhaps interesting to look just at the summary there, where you'll see that your gross expenditure for next year, is now some fifty four million pounds. Erm, so, so the service is growing rapidly in financial terms, and will continue to grow in the coming two years, if only because it's new . The salmon sheets Chair, we have shown our estimates of what ideally we would like for the continuing introduction of the Children Act and its requirements, the Criminal Justice Act, and the Warner Reports, but we do recognize, and I think this Committee recognizes, the difficult financial position the County Council finds itself in, and therefore the intention is to meet those unavoidable requirements from within the base budget, and there are no bids in these papers for funding towards those. Erm, I think Chair, it, there is a need obviously for all committees to be realistic, and erm, that certainly is our intention within those, but I would say again, it leads me to believe that you should keep a reasonable er, committee contingency in case certain difficulties present themselves in terms of those additional er, pressures and requirements. Items four to twelve Chairman, are some further detail on the provision for demographic growth, which is shown on items four to seven, erm, and that is spread between the major client groups. The elderly population is based on the estimated increase in population of the over seventy five year olds, and indeed that is the factor that is now used in S S A in terms of looking er, the need to spend on elderly people. Er, it used to be those over eighty, but it's been reduced to those over seventy five. Erm, the growth in demand for people with a known disability and again is explained briefly there, and essentially means that you've got more clients coming in than you've got leaving because of the greater life expectancy because more are surviving at birth, and one would have to say that they are presenting more difficult problems in a health demand. Erm, mental health referrals is partly demographic, partly social change, in that there is an expectation of dealing differently with people who have mental health problems, and there is also a very clear expectation of dealing differently with offenders who are leaving the, the prison system who have mental health problems, and there are pressures arising from both those areas, as well as the constant requirement for an enhanced provision on alcohol, substance abuse er, and, and similar factors. The item seven, Chair, increase in child population. It is true to say there isn't the same direct relation between child numbers and spending on children's services that you get in education. Erm, it's again recognized in the S S As that it is more social factors that impact on the need to spend on children's services, and therefore things like single parent families, the level of family income and these tend to have a greater impact, but it would be foolish to assume that with a higher child population you are not going to get more demands on children's services, and therefore we have provided a fifty thousand pounds' provision within that to take care of problems. So there's a proposal there of six hundred and fifty five thousand pounds in total to meet growth in client numbers broadly speaking. Other additions, we did earlier Chair, and that is we have received a mental illness specific grant, erm, on a number of schemes but they have been time limited, and they are due to cease, some of them are due to cease in the coming year. They have been used to develop services jointly with health, and indeed a substantial part of the ones that we're losing are underpinning the local health team in South Telford at the moment. And your choice if you don't find money to , I think not one of ceasing the service, but finding offsetting savings elsewhere, and I mean it's a matter of there is a required service, it is there, there is an agreement with the health authority that neither party would, will withdraw funding without detailed con consultation and determination of how needs would be met. So hence the inclusion of that one. A similar picture on European Social Fund which is falling out, erm, mainly relating to schemes for people with learning disability, and we have been very successful on that front in attracting European funding for learning disability, particularly those schemes which have an element of, of training for, for employment associated with them. I've already briefly referred to item ten, and that is we've had to increase the numbers in registration inspection during the current year, and that demand will continue, there is no provision in the base for the ongoing costs for staff who're appointed. And therefore there's a hundred and twenty thousand in for that. The five hundred thousand shortfall in community Chair, I think we've covered in some detail on the earlier paper, so there are other additions there of some nine hundred thousand. We've also included in there, on item twelve, a net bill item, but does need to be recognized as an addition to your total spending, and that is, you've been involved for many years with the health authority in arranging for the discharge of people from long-stay hospitals, and their absorption into the community, and each of these are a provider of many services, and daycare services to those particular individuals. In closing the hospitals the health authority has been purchasing care for those people that let you care for them in a variety of settings and support. They have asked that we take that on, there is a report later in the agenda with detail on that, but as far as these papers are concerned that's simply us taking over responsibility for the best part of two million pounds' worth of spending which the health authority will refund to us by way of a section twenty eight grant. So that's a straight inheritance, does increase your gross expenditure of the Committee, and indeed does involve you, quite sensibly involve you in the total care package for those particular individuals who're increasingly seen as your clients rather than health authority clients. Er, moving on Chair, to reductions, unless members wish to make any comments on, on the additions as a block at this stage? Comments? No, carry on. Sorry? Joe, I wonder, would it help members if, we, we as it were, almost moved the reductions, from our point of view, we say nothing further at this point, and the officers' point of view, and leave members who might like to pick up on them, and, and talk about individual ones as they go through. I would like to say something at some point about the point I made earlier about going, increasingly as you go down this list, you depart in directions which are, er, contrary to your policies, but Right, erm, if we can let members get in. I, I, maybe before we start that, on the point of reductions, and I'll ask both er, George and, and er, Jean and Mike to, to speak for the different political groups, as part of the P A G, erm, when we did go through this process, I, I mean it was very difficult for us as a P A G. We did meet three times, and, and, and the, the steps erm, under reductions get er, er, gradually worse for want of a better phrase, in relation to how we're able to deliver the service. I think that was recognized by all members of the P A G. I think what is happening now that these papers have been published, er, is that we, we will be receiving er, erm, information, consultation from user groups about user groups and the pos possible implication that these reductions will have upon their services, er, but George is there anything you want to add? No, I, I, I think what you've said is, is what was agreed at the P A G, and erm, I don't think there's any point in adding to it. Jean? Well, er, we're in an impossible situation aren't we? I think everyone's accepted that fact, er, at the end of the day, someone has got to make some very, very bad decisions. Erm, we can't just ignore the responsibilities that we've been given. We'll debate and these instructions, but there's always this shortfall, and it's been going on for far too long, and we still have an increasing number of responsibilities, and I just find it extremely distressing to have to sit here time and time again, to go through doing things that we really know we shouldn't be. Instead of cutting, most should be increasing them. We are in that situation and all we can do is try and do the best we can to survive and keep some sort of service going to help people who desperately need it. Mike? Yes, well, I think the P A Gs have looked very carefully at all of these things, and while not being happy with er, a number of them, there really isn't er, much alternative er, ways to go. The rules and regulations are there, we have the money and we're actually told where we can spend it. If we don't we, we're, we're,we have no other way, and er, I think they're very carefully doing that in P A G meetings. You'll accept, sorry to interrupt, Mrs ? Erm, yes, I'd like that number fifteen on the reductions erm, I would like to know more detail of quite what that is, is all about, because erm, it's fairly hefty in terms of voluntary organizations, so it's a hefty erm, reduction. It may seem small in, in comparison to others, but from voluntary organizations' point of view, it's quite an horrendous problem. Chairman, can we, you know, you recall we discussed at some length at the P A G. Within our provision for grants for voluntary organizations, we hold an unallocated figure, because we don't automatically erm, add inflation to grants to voluntary bodies, and in fact we wait for them to come forward and justify the increases of grants we're giving. A number of the grants, virtually all of the grants are to voluntary bodies who are providing services which are of considerable benefit to this Committee, and where we would be in some difficulty if they didn't give those of voluntary support to it. But what we're proposing here essentially, is to say we've got a seventy thousand pound contingency not specifically allocated, we will reduce that down to thirty thousand, but within that thirty thousand we will have to deal with requests we get to increase grants to people who're already in receipt of grant support, and also we've also found it extremely helpful to have a small reserve so that when a body comes along and says I would do this for you, but I do need a small grant in order to do it, and you're effectively buying a hundred thousand pounds worth of service for ten thousand pounds, that you have actually got a ten thousand pounds to put it in, rather than funding everyone, so that's basically the policy behind it Chair. So far as you see it But none of these are any proposals to reduce existing cash grants to voluntary bodies. No, but I mean, you've had several, presumably you've had what did you say, seventy five thousand last, Seventy seventy thousand last year, now you're saying that even within any, I know it's moderate inflation, but none the less it's inflation, er, you are only making available, did you get through the seventy, I mean, were they applied for? And did you find that that made a difference to your overall service? And when, did you use up your seventy thousand? Or was there a balance? There has been a balance Chair, and, and hence the fact that we've knocked it off as an efficiency saving rather than as a reduction in service. Erm, our belief is that we can manage erm, in line with our, our practice, and give up that forty thousand pounds, but it is, it's reducing your flexibility as, as a number of these changes effectively do. But no, our belief is that we can manage. Increasingly with voluntary bodies, and I know that this was discussed at length in the P A G, but will be of interest to members, increasingly with voluntary bodies, we are moving towards er, jointly providing services with them, in a partnership arrangement where we are effectively purchasing and commissioning services from them, and that is the way we would wish the policy to go. That rather than making a block grant for somebody because we know they do a good job, that we do more directly relate that to services they're providing to us and output. Needless to say voluntary bodies are very nervous about that, because they have difficulty contracting to provide a service when they are totally dependent on unpaid volunteers, and therefore there is reluctance on their part to, to enter into contracts that bind them to provide something where they are uncertain about their ability to do it. So we do have to manage this with some care. But undoubtedly, the way we are moving with the major providers is one where increasingly they will be part of the mixed economy in the independent sector which is voluntaries, erm, quasi er, commercial bodies, and fortified with commercial bodies, trusts and others. And, and therefore, our relationship with them will be increasingly of a more contractual nature. Councillor Yes, can you on twenty four, what are we talking about here? Do we know where these, these are the proposals, I mean is it one, two? Or is that just the overview? Sorry, what g page twenty four? No, no, number twenty four No, on bid four, Mr , 's focusing in on the closure of er, Ellands elderly persons homes, I think, and we're looking at two sets in that, er, there's the proposal at twenty two, for a closure of one residential home for the elderly, in the east of the county. I must stress that we are looking primarily, or we propose to look primarily, er, at the east of the county. Er, and then the further closure depending where the line is drawn, the further potential closure of an additional home, which is the one that er, Mr made reference to. Erm, now we, we can explain to you in more detail, but the finan I think Mr 's already said to you that the financial savings er, from such moves are not as productive as they were, so in sense we're driven by strategy here, we're driven by the fact that there is a private and there is an independent sector that is there, there is alternative methods of supply. We believe as you know, that there is an over-supply of residential accommodation, not evenly distributed, I have to say that, that it varies, for example in Shrewsbury there's a very sizable er, independent sector, but that will vary, er, in other parts of the county. But we're primarily moving er, on that sort of basis. Now, can I just add one other comment to it? We believe that we would, we would find considerable difficulty too, in closing one plus in a single financial year, er, for all sorts of reasons which we can explain to you. So we would essentially be talking about a phased process the more we consider. Are the homes that are under threat though at the moment? Are they concerned about this? Do they know? Or, or No, no as the Director has indicated, we are looking to the east of the county. No homes have been identified as such yet, the officers are looking at the homes in the east of the county. Right, can you tell how you're intending to er, administer the hundred and fifty thousand pounds home care services? How's that going to be er, implemented? Are you going to, when you do your care packages say we can only award so much, we'll have to reduce it, arbitrarily? Yes, yes, yes Yes, I, I must say I'm particularly concerned about home care services. You'll have a later report er, from the social care enterprise agency, which we've set up to stimulate independent domiciliary care. Now it is doing that, but it's not doing it, doing it, sorry, at a rate which allows us er, a sort of concomitant withdrawal er, on our side. Total What it means is that we reduce our service, and we take, we can, we can, we can expect the independent sector to fill that gap for us. It's a military term To fill that gap for us immediately. And I have to say to you again that the home care service is the one that is most under pressure. I've said to you before, it's the one I receive most letters about, er, I know that it's drawn extremely finely at this present minute. So it, as I said to you in my opening remarks, here's a clear example of us having to move in a direction that we wouldn't be recommending to you in terms of policy, but we're driven by the financial considerations. Although I'm not totally certain it will save us in the longer term. Er, Shirley Could I ask a question please Mr Chairman? Item twenty as well as twenty six, you are suggesting that meals go up in day centres by fifteen percent, and then on twenty six, we introduce a two pound a week for daycare, for people with learning disabilities. But do these people at the moment receive a meal, in the course of their attendance at whichever day centre they attend? If so, could was that price, sorry the cost of two pound, include their meal? No So you're really clobbering them both ways, aren't you? You're putting the meal up fifteen percent, and you're assuming that you're going to charge them two pounds for the attendance to that centre. So it isn't really just two pounds that they're going to have find is it? No Well as I indicated these forms are as unpalatable as they are I understand are, are out, are out now, in, in relation to consultation and user groups and their re or representative organizations, have been asked to comment in relation to the whole process before we go, we get to Panel and P and R er, so that we get, and then full Council, so we will get some indication, and twenty six particularly, so that, maybe those members in the last er, er, Council do realize they might have got, we might have got our fingers burnt in relation to this particular issue. But it, it, it is an issue that, that, that does seem to base itself on an as and where basis. We're spending five million, if you look, er, on services for people with learning disabilities. I don't believe you can ignore five million, when you're looking for reasons. Oh, no, oh, no, I'm not suggesting you do, but it just seems unkind of erm, clobbering them sort of both ways. Bill did you want to come in? Yes Chair, and I could just comment on the, on the consultation process particularly in relation to potential home closures and to the charges affecting people with learning disability. We, when the papers for this Committee were made public, we did alert people to them, the potential erm, effects of these proposals. We have not as yet got out any form of formal consultation process, erm, but obviously erm, if erm, if that's what members er, of this Committee wish, erm, then we would do so, and we would be advised as to whether that should be in advance of P and R, or whether members would wish to wait for the, the results of P and R Committee before formally embarking on, on consultation there. To be advised by you, Chair. I think we wouldn't want consultation before, it might influence the decision of P and R, or there again depends if we agree the, the arguments for consultation . I mean personally, I'm of the view that it's better to erm, agree a set of, of proposals for consultation, see what the outcome is of those consultations, er, to see whether or not we stick to what we're suggesting, to be frank. But that's my personal view. In that case Chair, I I mean, well, I glean, sort of from the members of the Committee Perhaps I could just advise members, Chairman, that erm, that the timescale for that would be fairly tight, erm, and my recollection is that when we er, we went out to consultation previously in the sphere of learning disability on an issue that I well you should know, erm, I think there were some thirteen plus consultation meetings required in, in order to, erm, to get a fair spread of, of, of opinion. So between now and Policy and Resources, it's a very tight timetable. The letter I saw which alerted er, users and their carers about these items on the agenda, seem to be an indication for them to, to express their opinions back through the Social Services Department, now if that's consultation, then the process has started. It may not have been called formal consultation process. That's right, Chairman, we did, we wanted to inform people of what was erm, and they would au obviously have a right to comment, but we didn't regard that a, a formal consultation basis. I think Chairman, in a sense, some of the items are sufficiently explicit for people to say well I know what's being proposed, I can comment on it. But when you come to something that says one or more closures of elderly persons' homes in the east of the county, I don't think it's quite fair for people saying we have a right to be told on that, but that it's insufficiently explicit for them to, to respond to consultation, and to bring their particularly cases forward. Bill I presume Chair, we don't have a statutory obligation to consult on a matter such as item twenty six? Could we not call it sort of discussions and to try and put our point of view, our, our difficulties that we're in, rather than erm, er, er, the narrower thing? But erm, I, I'm concerned about number twenty three. Er, it's difficult enough with foster parents as it is, without erm, reducing further the er, the allowances. And erm, on the er, item twenty five, might there be an opportunity, with the agreement that we're going to deal with in item D aren't we, er, with the social serv with the er, health authority, are under suspicion that a lot of the er, personal care we offer through that system ought really to be offered by district nurses, erm, and I wonder whether that's erm, can we, perhaps we cannot establish that. Somebody's shaking their head. C we've, I mean we've, we are having discussions, er, with the health authority about the way in which they propose to deal with their good fortune this year. Er, and I have to say that we're obviously concerned, as they are, that there's money put in to their side of the community care infrastructure. So I think we would want to be pressing that sort of point er, on them. But over and above that, you can't be expecting nurses to, presuming you'd get more, to take over home care duties. You're talking about social care here. Peter Just wanted to point out, Phil, last year we, we had savings on erm, the teen care phase of a hundred and seventy thousand and this, on er, reference number seventeen it shows fifty thousand, er, what do you include the whole of that to casualties together? Mike can probably come in teen care, but essentially what we have done in the current year, is sell places on teen care where we have needed the income in order to balance our books,. The children's plan when you come to it, very clearly shows a very sensible wish to move from expensive specialist placements, and expensive residential community home placements to more fostering, more teen care, more work with families in the community. This is only being put forward, not because it's a spare capacity, but because it's a choice between selling something and getting income, or cutting a service somewhere else. And the choice is actually for us to forego the use of those, a much needed use in some instances, in order to get a net income as an alternative to cutting services elsewhere. Did you want some, some formal in relation to the consultation? Well, at the end of the advice, whatever conclusion members reach, I'm very , I think certainly on those areas erm, that they wish formal consultation or discussion erm, to take place, and the timescale we have to work to. Any further views on that, and the reductions? Well I think the consultation should take place, I suppose as soon as possible, because I think it's going to create problems, er, to get the timescale through committee. I think, think it's best maybe we're into these sort of formal words of consultation and discussion, maybe if we invite comment on, on the service changes really, or the reductions or cuts or whatever you want to describe them as, er, in relation to how they affect user groups. Where we have the, the erm, responsibility for a formal consultation, er, then we need to set about that process as soon as possible to try and meet our deadline, Mr Chairman. Be advised by Mr . The Chair is obviously referring to the fact recently in the courts, there was consideration of the closure of old persons' homes, and you know that you are under a legal requirement to consult in respect of those otherwise any decision, to close without consultation can held to be invalid, and that has impinged on some authorities who were going down that route, so there is a duty there. There is a specific statutory provision scattered about, children's services particularly, where children have to be consulted. Erm, so on that, on major services, it is incumbent upon you to consult, erm, and detailed advice is given by me to the Director in relation to each of the, of the er, proposals as to when and how consultation should take place. But, in some of the major ones, the children and the elderly, there are quite clearly on the statutes laid down, and case law, laid down saying you must go through a process of consultation. Which means, that at the end of the day, before reaching your final decision, you must hear what people are saying, and so you can't take a decision as it were, a final decision about a closure, and then go out to consultation. It's fairly obvious, but it sometimes needs emphasising, and the timing of your committees obviously this means that there can be a delay, in the realization of any er, savings that might arise. Do we agree then that we proceed down that, that, that line, about those, those two elements? Yes, yes Well Chairman, I'm assuming that er, the P A G, assuming you're accepting, will want to discuss with officers the issue id of identification of er, homes for the elderly? Is that agreed? You want to be very careful er, Mr Chairman, how we put out erm, information, I mean, let's face it, you know, you start sort of raising a lot of hairs if you're not careful and if, if, even if it's totally irrelevant people will latch on to a particular com comment and make it their own. That's right, I'm sure you are, yes, that's right, that's right Well we're already under pressure to give names, and we are reluctant to give pressure, cos n reluctant to give names because we haven't got them, at this stage, but we need, but at some stage we need to iden as we, as part of the process, this need, there's a need at least to identify one home within the east of the county. Er, maybe more than one home, particularly as part of the consultation process, I don't know. But it's whether, whether the officers do that and start the consultation or whether it's done by P A G, I'm getting a shaking of the head here, I think it needs a political decision as opposed to anything else. Can I just ask Mr Chairman? Are you saying that you will only close these homes if there are very few residents, in other words a shortfall? No May I say something Chair? We've got other pressures upon us Well there's such a small saving in homes, that's why I'm, you know, I'm always very loathe to see them go. But we've got other strategic pressures upon us, the issue of care in the community which is to provide respite and domiciliary care. And as you've seen with previous closures of our homes, the last three, is that we've been able to utilize some of those resources to provide that shift in policy which has been very successful, and has, er, a process that we've got has allayed people's fears who've been used for those residential home agreements. Peter. What er,is this not out of true,by my visits to various homes, and I've been very impressed with the, the er, general conditions, the care, er, of the residents and everything else. But regrettably, erm, it's, this is another example of the disadvantaged and those who can least afford it, to er, look after themselves who're having to suffer. Er, we, we, we, we don't want to, we have a go it's a definite government policy that we will, we will, we are forced into this corner, and as I say, it's the disadvantaged who suffer every time. And I would like to think that everybody in, on this committee erm, very much regrets having to do it, but we have no alternative whatsoever. Until there's a change of government policy, then we can do nothing about it. Chairman, I'll, I'm not wishing to make a political, a particular political point, but I totally disagree with that, So do I I think it's very good policy, there's many people policy, who are in our homes, who would give anything to have been able to have stayed in their own homes, or maybe stayed with relatives, but erm, they need the help and care in their homes. I know that's difficult to provide erm, and the money's got to be found for that, but it, it's a mixed blessing putting elderly people into, a lot are put into our homes, which I agree are very good the majority of them, they're very nice, but the people who're put into them, they give up their own homes, and then they get a bit better six months later, and they say, ooh, I just want to go back to my home now. Erm, you must know that as well as I do, so there's, it's six of one and half dozen of another. It isn't anything to do with government at all. Order, order Could, could I say, I must reply to that. I'm not against the principle as I said when I came, when I was on the Council previously, when this was first hanging about, that there's little doubt about it as, it's a good policy, but will we get the money to carry it out. We're due in ninety five a reduction in home care services with, everything is being reduced, and everything is being squeezed, we're looking at the, the mentally er, handicapped people er, and their report, we're being pressurized to look after them as well. But the money isn't there to do the proper job, it's a, if the money was there to do the proper job, I'd say great let's go ahead and do it, but in policy or principle it's a wonder there's a lot good things in it, but there isn't the money to do it. That wasn't what you said, that wasn't what you said, and probably the first person to put your granny in a home. I don't think that's going to help Mike on this Well whether we like it or not Order please, can I have one meeting please, one meeting Whether we like it or not, we, we've got elderly people to look after, a lot of them, and whether we like it or not, there has been a change in attitude of the government. There's no doubt about that. We er, er, had all these homes, they sprung up, and what they've decided is, that isn't the way to go forward from here on in, what we're going to do, er, we're gonna have what's called care in the community. We get money for doing that, but we can't spend it in our homes we have to use it in the private sector, so, at the end of the day, er, whether we like it or not, we didn't like these decisions but that's the way we've got to go. Okay, I think the suggestion is, is that, that we identify er, er, homes within the east of the county and that is done by the P A G, is there any dissent from that? Now, I, I, I don't, I don't look for trouble, you know me Is there any dissent from that? No Okay. Right can we move to capital programme. Now show Europe please Chairman, just before we leave things can I just remind members now that, that, the target set for this Committee was a net increase, and, have that in mind as we go through, and that increase is some six hundred and forty thousand pounds, which we could show within those papers as having arrived at it, in ninety four, five. Because I think, approves the use of a hundred and eighty thousand pounds of our carry forwards, contingency figure, which isn't receipted in five, six, and six, seven, that the variation in five, six, before the home closure savings come fully on-stream, is in fact an increase of seven hundred and fifty four thousand, but dropping in ninety six, seven some five hundred and fifty eight thousand. I don't know whether this will be acceptable to Policy and Resources Committee or the Council at the end of the day, but essentially what is showing there is something that, taken over the three years meets er, a figure equivalent to the annual but it doesn't do it uniformly over the three years. And that's something I think members need to bear in mind. The only way of addressing that differently, if indeed the guideline is strictly applied, and you're required to identify no more than a net increase of six hundred and forty thousand in ninety five, six, the second year of this programme, then you would have to put in additional line of further savings as yet to be identified. I'm not proposing that to you at the moment Chairman, I'm just pointing it out to members so that there's no confusion on it. And then, on the bottom of page sixteen and through on to seventeen is addressing the point that, also within the guideline, we have been asked, we've been asked as a Committee, to look at the implications of finding up to a further two hundred and fifty thousand pounds' worth of reductions. I would have to say Chair, at this stage, that item twenty eight that we put in there, in terms of registration inspection now needs to be withdrawn. There is draft er, legislation, a draft circular has just come out, which makes quite clear beyond any doubt that we are required to treat the inspection of our facilities exactly the same way as the independent sector. Er, we had been at legislation inspection of becoming an, a costly service in terms of gross expenditure, and therefore we need to look for savings from those areas where we actually spend money, erm, and the belief was, the policy thought was that as our own homes were subject to our own direct management, to inspection by members, to both internal and external audits, erm, they were therefore better inspected than the independent sector, certainly more widely inspected, and therefore the least risk, in terms of any reduction on registration inspection would apply in that area. Unfortunately it would appear, or perhaps fortunately, depending on, on one's views, erm, the policy has always been quite clear, that we should treat them in exactly the same way as we treat the independent sector, and that there would be an arm's length independent inspection, that has now been made explicitly clear that that is the requirement, and therefore you would have to withdraw that and say that if there is a requirement to find a further two hundred and fifty thousand pounds' worth of savings, we will have to go and identify another area rather than that. But if I could just make one small correction, Chairman, at the, an error on my part. On item thirty on page seventeen, it refers to increased charges above those proposed in item twenty two, that should of course read item twenty six. Twenty six. Mrs ? Erm, just very quickly Mr Chairman. Erm, this inspection of homes, erm, etcetera by members. I just wonder erm, if this couldn't be helped if you like, by increasing them rather than decreasing them, taking over perhaps some of the, not absolutely statutory, but some of the extra use of staff, and I don't know if it's possible, but at the moment I worry because some of the homes are only being inspected and visited by members anyway. So I wonder whether I can cut that out completely, or, or The answer is no, you couldn't, er, in terms of registering and inspecting, and in fact your role is likely to be diminished further because the draft circular talks about bringing lay assessors, and lay assessors are defined as people who do not have any form of er, directional responsibility for providing a service. Now, I haven't totally had a chance to talk to Mr er, about that, but I would assume that means you er, and so it's moving in the other direction if anything Mrs . Chair, it looks as though it includes not only c councillors, but certainly former officers. Officers, former officers of the Council So the net is cast very wide, as to who cannot sit on the Yes, well I mean, if the worst, yes, you might redu you might improve to worry about. Okay, the final point on, on the salmon papers, erm, I have noted at the bottom there, that we have not yet settled bids on joint finance for ninety four, five. This is again money that the health authority provides, it is agreed within joint collaborative committee, consisting of health, er, the County Council, the District Councils, and voluntary bodies. And er, whilst we do know the total that's available, er, there's been no er, consideration in detail of the bids against that. I've noted there that, that if you were to bid for funds that had tapering attaching to them, and therefore you would be picking up increased costs in ninety five, six, and ninety six, seven, that they wouldn't exceed the figure shown at the bottom of the page. I would go further Chairman, in terms of the version we reach now, I would be very surprised if they do reach those figures, and, er, why I would expect them to be substantially less, because the policy which is being proposed at this stage is one of using joint finance monies as a one hundred percent grant, one-off grants for one or two years in support of schemes, rather than in, as a tapering item. Although there will be a small number of tapering items within there, erm, hopefully Chairman we'll have more detailed information before this report is considered by the Policy and Resources Committee in, in February. Comments? Well Chairman, you, I think certainly the Po the P and R have asked you for your views, I mean there's no final er, agreements. I think I should say to you at this point, that if you're moving into these areas, you are moving into what I can, or, just totally contrary in fact to your policies, and directions, and er, not only that, I think we have difficulty sustaining. If I can just pick on community homes stamping reduction and we've talked about that already earlier. Er, we know that there's an O and M report coming through, we've got a pretty good idea what's in it. We know that there's a thing called the Warner Report, which is er, leaning all the way for more er, and yet we will reducing. So I have to say to you that whilst I'm putting these forward, it's absolutely clear that we would be having adverse comments and criticism er, from the S S I, and that you would be moving into areas that I can't recommend to you, but I, I put them forward as obviously illustrations. Chair, I, I think we have to reflect that view to the P and R Committee. I mean we all know it, and we all know there's a lot on this list which are most unpalatable, and they're only there because we've been set the task of reaching a particular sum of money, and er, if we had the choice we'd be going in the reverse direction, and, and adding. So while we have to discharge our responsibilities and, and, and show how these targets are achievable, we also are quite right to indicate our feelings about in, in, in the manner the Director's er, expressed. Chair, if I might be allowed just thirty seconds comment on the budget from the point of view of some of the central services. There is no doubt at all that where there are reductions er, particularly at the edge of our statutory responsibilities, this inevitably we know, generates more demands for support from central services, particularly legal, where we are then brought into dispute, and there are complaint machinery, and other processes brought into play. I think it's perhaps a small consideration but it does impact on increased demand for those central services. Mr Chairman, er, it's an important point, but I'm so fed up with hearing people using this as a political issue, erm, and, and, and I'm a high critic of the government er, for many other reasons, but I would like to know where these people think the money would come from. Perhaps they would tell us, if they were allowed to spend more, where do they think the funds come from, and who do they think's going to pay? Well, what do Can you tell us what you think it would, what you think would happen? Let's have it in black and white, are you saying that the Council Tax should go up by many, many pounds? Hundreds of pounds?it's such an important issue, we ought to have it out in the open, and let's tell the taxpayers what these people say I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm sorry, I'm sorry Councillor , but you obviously haven't been listening to debate this morning, the issue is about the settlement that we have received. It relates to lots of policy areas and the way in which the, the whole settlement is skewed against Shropshire, we hear it on every budget debate It's not fair, that's right So you're just arguing about Shropshire's allocation, it's got nothing to do with government policy affairs, about holding Cou local government spending er, within limits, you're not saying that. Oh, yes, well that's part of the issue as well and it has to be part of the strategy Alright, where's the money? Where does the money come from? It doesn't jus I'd like to know, I'd like you to tell the rate payers of Shropshire what you expect them to do. Are you going to put Council Tax up two hundred pounds, because to, to, to meet all the demands of Council, well that's the sort of thing you're asking me to do. And, and you know how to blame, Well I mean, another point is you've only got to see any tax that goes up and everyone's up in arms about it. if we can't find it where do we go? Well, well, well when this lot, when this lot goes out to consultation you come back and te to me that other people aren't putting their arms up in air, about the reduction in services, or what are preceiv or what are perceived, no hang on, You tell them I'm a very patient Chair, or what are perceived as cuts, not reductions in services, total decimation of services, if we actually go down these particular lines, That's because of overspending in previous years. Well that is bunkum, bunkum That's rubbish, that's rubbish John, absolute rubbish. Peter ? No, no, no, I say Good, George next. I was only going to say, Chair, that before my time in local government, that I've mine as an observer each side, er, there was no problem for local authorities to raise a rate, er, there was no restrictions on this, and if they thought they could get away with it politically, they did, and they provided the services, that, that they believed people wanted. There was no problem all that long time ago, I don't know why we haven't Well that's the great point of being honest, that's a great point, and let's tell the rate payers what we expect them to do Could we move on Mr Chairman please? Yes, we need to agree this, unpalatable as it is, to go forwards to P and R, to expose what the five percent reduction is, and to indicate as well to P and R other points that we, we want to say about these specific services. I think it's been said. I think you've said Chairman, that you would find this final tranche very difficult to achieve. Maybe this, the minutes need to reflect that. If we can play them over there. Is that agreed then? So the capital programme is er, erm, as I said earlier, the capital programme is not within the guidelines set by Policy and Resources Committee. Erm, the proposals there do, in fact, exceed the capital spend on new starts, and it will therefore need pruning erm, and the proposals that we suggested earlier was that, subject to any comments members may have on individual schemes that are here, and their views on them, we would propose looking at the programme in detail, and bringing it within the guideline figures that have been set, erm, and doing that with the advice of P A G before it goes on to Policy Panel and, and Policy and Resources Committee. Er, I think there are certain papers well further down er, the agenda that, that might be taken to P A G as well, in relation to capital programmes, so if, if we can possibly speak about the generality of the capital programme because I think the idea is that it goes to P A G for refinements. Mrs . Erm, very briefly, I think that erm, from my knowledge, as opposed to bureaucracy, other people in charge would know more about it, er, item two, item three, erm, I think could be certainly reduced in expenditure. This seems erm, over the top, I erm, I don't honestly think the provision of garages is absolutely essential in the light of the things that we've been cutting up which are essential, erm, and in number two. And I don't really see that erm, number three is of vital importance either. Er, going to number twenty, and twenty two, erm, I would like to know quite what this, these large figures are about, and quite er, what we intend. There's no detail on it, it's just very broad sweep, various properties, continuing programme of improving. Number twenty two, capital effects to allow for the acquisition of various properties. What do we want them for? How essential are they? You know, I mean, these sorts of rather broad brush suggestions, er, a total of, I'm not very good at arithmetic, something of two hundred and forty thousand pounds, those two, plus I think, an actual reduction in certainly two and three if not erm,remo removal. I think you've got quite a significant amount of money which you could offset what we've been saying just grieves me. Yes, as I said previously, I didn't particularly want to go into the detail, because obviously as a member of P A G, Mrs , you'll get an opportunity to see that particular detail. The other point is as well, if you don't know the, what the outcome of your capital programme's going to be, you don't do a lot of work in working up specific projects, otherwise it's going to be abortive work. You put in general points, but specifically pick your point up on item three to do with Homeward Church Stretton, the reports that I read, er, from the visitors like yourself, to go to that children's home, identify this as an issue every time. So you, so I, I, I don't agree with you on that point but anyway the point of refining, the point of refining the capital programme is there is an im implication of, of, of debt repayment er, which is part of revenue, which could have an implication er, upon how we reach our reductions. That's the main reason for the P A G to refine the, the capital programme, to reflect that before it goes to the Policy Panel, and then to P and R and Council. To Peter . Could, could I just say that Homeward, I mean there the, the parking is obviously a problem, that that is something that could go by, but I mean, I went to, the last time I went to Homeward, and walked out, and it's before we had all this rain, my shoes were under water. In the whole garden, and not just, and plus a river running through to, to the, to the north side, and it is difficult, and it is quite a problem and to, to, to say that this is not necessary, is undoubtedly ridiculous. Good boating holiday! Councillor ? That's alright Mr Chairman, I think it's been cleared, thank you. Okay, sorry Mrs . I'd just like to make a point about Robert House, and Roseberry. I'd have thought and it's in support. Erm, I don't know whether it's anything in the budget for de redecoration,I think, Robert House. What's the implication? Yes, I could use, could have a little attention. Again Chairman, it's reflected in the children's services plan up to possible future proposals for Robert Home. I shouldn't waste too much money on it, it needs replacing. That's my feeling entirely. Anyway, is, is, is there agreement that there's, that this er, capital programme and associated papers after our deliberations on are referred to the P A G, is that agreed? Is that agreed? Yes. I'm, I'm under pressure for two decisions, Paul is here to speak to his paper and has to be in Sandwell at two o'clock, and I'm told that the canteen closes at one thirty. Are those alternative, Is, is it your agreement that we take Paul 's paper now, before we look, can I suggest that we take Paul 's paper next. Which one? Where do I turn to, next page, page one. Paper I, I, I All those happy say aye. Aye. That's carried. Item eight. Oh, yes. Chair, do you want me to speak? I should start Yes, right. Er, thank you Chair, for the opportunity to introduce the paper which I do briefly bearing in mind what I, I see are all the pressures on you which will go on into the afternoon. Erm, just to remind you, or to draw to your attention, erm, ladies and gentlemen, the fact that the report erm, was considered in the first instance, by your community care advisory sub-committee in September, and subsequently by the joint consultative committee in November. Er, the recommendation to those committees was that they should treat the paper as a basis for consultation, it was on that basis that they approved it, it was my impression that they support it in general terms. The principles of what was proposed. The consultation er, that the document was sent out very, very widely to District Councils, to voluntary organizations, and throughout the county, the consultation process was extended until the end of December, er, replies are now in, and I believe there's, there's around a dozen of them. The next stage I understand Chair, is that a report on the consultation process and what's come out of it will be, will be brought in er, in the first instance, to the J C C and the community care advisory committee, and, and thence with substantive recommendations to this Committee, and to the health authority etcetera, in relation to the substance of the report. Very No, I'm trying to catch the Chairman's eye. He's now talking, and I shall want to speak , carry on. Very, very quickly, can I just say, that in the er,consultat in the, in the work I did in the, which led to the production of the report, and the many, many people I talked to, some of whom I, I see around the table, I found on the one hand, ample evidence throughout the county authorities, the health authority, the district councils, and the voluntary sector, of much evidence of recognition of improved collaboration between agencies in delivery of community care in Shropshire. Especially as compared with those somewhat dark days in terms of specially the relationship between the County Council and the health authority. And at the same time, and slightly in contradiction to that, I found it increasing erm, er, perception and indication of dissatisfaction with the way in which the joint er, collaborative structures were actually working, if I may say, especially at the top level in terms of the political erm erm, so I say to you colleagues, that you are required as er, by statute to, to have in place collaborative structures, er, under a statute that goes back to the nineteen seventies, and I should also say to you that up and down the country that authorities like your own are at this stage doing what you're doing, and that is reviewing the effectiveness of the operation of those structures, and probably coming to much the same conclusions. Erm, why is that there er, that review process is going up and down the country and why is that people are dissatisfied? I would suggest to you colleagues, it's because the, your expectations and those of the, er, the other erm, stake holders involved in the other agencies about joint planning depends on what you expect the joint structures to carry. A few years ago, er, the joint planning structures, and this is before the introduction of care in the community, dealt or came to be seen politically, dealing very much with joint finance and although, important though it, that is, it's what's sometimes called funny money, it's money at the side, it didn't deal with mainstream policies, and mainstream budgets. And, following the reconstruction of the new health authorities, some distance was created between those structures and local authorities, and so in the early seventies, there was a tendency to move apart, and not to expect very much from the joint collaborative structures. The introduction, the build up to the introduction of care in the community with its formal launch in, in April erm, of last year, has in fact increased very significantly the expectations of joint collaboration because there you're actually talking about major budgets, major planning agreements, erm, erm, and so a need for a review. However, in terms of the recommendations, and I shall very, very quickly come to those, and deal with those very quickly, Chair, erm, I should just say to you that the, be, beware of structuralism. Any review of the structures is not likely to stand for any number of years, it's not likely to get absolutely right, erm, and so be flexible about your approach. In relation to the recommendations Chair, I just pick on four points, the first one is, that at the political level, the proposal in the paper, and I should say, erm, and this is a matter of judgment, but it was widely supported by people I spoke to, there was considerable uncertainty and ambiguity in people's minds about, about the present structure, in terms of the responsibilities of the J C C, vis a vis the community care advisory sub-committee. There was a feeling there had been a time when you needed both, but for the future it would help in general, and offer much better leadership if you were to create one body, and since you're statutorily obliged to have a J C C, why not make it, actually make it work, so it meets more often, and it actually actively involves erm, er, er, er, at the political level, players at the political level. There was a strong feeling in some quarters, especially the voluntary sector, but also the District Council, that questions the degree of representation of all the different interests needed to be looked at, hence the proposal that there should be At to page nineteen my Lord of the transcript passage that begins my reading of this judgment down to the bottom of that paragraph at letter G, so from B to G on page nineteen my Lord Yes Now my Lord, er Lord Justice er agreed with er Lord Justice that's at twenty A, Lord Justice also agreed but er added er some further er thoughts on the er on the issue er his conclusion er is summarized of page twenty two, paragraph G of the er transcript yes, yes now my Lord, your Lordship would of seen from the case and now from the continental television case, both in the divisional court and in the court of appeal, that where a reference is to be made the court that is marking the reference, if, what is sort to be done is either to challenge a British statute or in the case of er, er the red hot Dutch case,of course with the statute, er something which er it involves a ministerial decision, but in either of those instances the court has got to decide in the interim whether or not the statute or measure should remain in force and there is the priority of public policy as indicated in er Lord er speech referred to both in the divisional court and in the court of appeal in continental television in er maintaining the law in force and a, a bonus has to be faced by the person seeking discipline from the law to show us a sufficiently strong case to justify the er, er, the suspension of the law in the interim. My Lord in making my main submissions to your Lordship, erm, I submitted and this is position that there is no distinction between public and private acts,in the British Rail Board both the act and the central fund byelaw should be taken as valid in the interim if your Lordship is minded to make a reference, unless strong evidence of invalidity is , so your Lordship if you make a reference it needs to form a view as to the strength of the yes of the erm of the defendant's case well how would that how would that fit into the present context?, erm, we're assuming here that I haven't decided the er European points or some of them in your favour yes my Lord or, or alternatively because I haven't, I have made this clear throughout, I come to the conclusion that the, the questions as posed erm or posed in any court which any one has yet suggested really can't, can't be answered or, or there are reasons for not answering at this stage whatever it may be yes my Lord in other words anything except a wholly favourable answer to your clients yes my Lord in effect, yes, well then erm just looking ahead in those circumstances erm, er on, on the face of those issues er where do we go from there then? well my Lord er you know the Society is in your Lordships hands in terms of seeking to move matters forward, the Society is erm very anxious indeed and the reason your Lordship knows that the hiatus in recovery from central funds should be overcome, our primary case er is that er we can demonstrate to your Lordship that the European law defences on the preliminary issues should be answered in the Society's favour well yeah, yes, but should you have, should you have doubts about that my Lord then er what we urged your Lordship to do would be in your judgment er to include a consideration of the strength of the case er your Lordship is seized of the matter now, if your Lordship er considers that there are issues of law which require clarification from the European court of justice and in competition cases all the European court candid on references is to give guidance on questions of law, your Lordship identifies questions of law which need to be i which need to be resolved and you think that it is the most appropriate course to refer a question, then we would ask that your Lordship consider in the interim the position of the, the Lloyds Act clauses there are sort to be challenged by the defences because it will be yeah, yeah, well I, I see all that, then, what, what is it literally that you'd ask me to do, would you take out an application for judgement on order fourteen, would you be expecting me to give judgment or, or, what other courses do you expect, be expecting hoping would take? well my Lord one, one approach would be for er your Lordship to consider the matter in respect of er order fourteen A, er in terms of er the validity in the interim of the er Lloyds Act and the central fund byelaw and that is a matter that your Lordship could, could deal with on the basis of a, an oral application. Yes, erm In short of having before your Lordship a very complicated er array of procedural options, er the, the view that has been taken by, my lead was the most appropriate er course was to come and argue the issue substantially and then in the light of what your Lordship rules thereafter to see the best way forward in terms of further procedural applications to your Lordship. Er is what you're saying, what, what you're saying apply equally erm spitting rather, if I sort information from it, I'm not quite sure what sort information I could seek from a commission, got any suggestions in that well my Lord you could seek, you can certainly seek information from the commission er concerning the state of the proceedings erm that the commission is looking at in respect of the mm er complaints that have been submitted, you can ask them er, erm for factual or legal information in accordance with er paragraphs er thir thirty seven to thirty nine of the guidelines which are in and er page eleven thirty eight to eleven thirty nine. mm could we have the, do either of you have the experience of how long, how long this might take my Lord, it's a relatively new procedure mm and erm, but the Commission, I'm, I'm sure if your Lordship asked for expedition, would seek to deal with the matter expeditiously yeah My Lord in saying doing it in another case which is an arbitration mm and the Commission, expedite this matter for the best part of twelve months already yeah, mm it's the delay that we are concerned about my Lord well I can understand that, yes well I, I, I, just say wasn't going to rule on this and I'm not in, not er convinced at the moment it would be appropriate to rule on it er as part of the er, in any judgment I gave, but it seemed to me quite important on reflection to, to hear the way what you were putting it my Lord there are two other grounds mm that I would also put it on in relation to your, to, to, to, to, to your Lordship and to considering the matter in interim, your Lordship has er, erm, er heard er the information that had been put forward er by the society, you have seen the er information about the position the commission has taken, your Lordship knows that the commission was informed about both the act and all the relevant byelaws in the present case, the precursored, the central fund byelaw was informally proved by the commission Mrs has sworn on affidavit that the society has never been given any indication that the matters in issue in the European Law Defence are contrary to competition rules and your Lordship also has the answer by the commission to the European parliament which is exhibited to Mrs affidavit and which I took your Lordship to earlier and of which judicial note can be taken by virtual section three, two of the European communities act, so my Lord we say that there is already a body of information which provides a basis if one has to consider what should be done in the interim of saying that in the interim the application of the act and the application for byelaws should be maintained, the third element my Lord is the intimate link between the recoveries of money for the central fund, er under the byelaw and the implementation of the United Kingdom's operations under directive seventy three, two, three, nine, we've been over this before my Lord erm, my Lord is, is aware of the intimate link er between the er recovery of monies to central fund, the maintenance solvency and the paying of policy holders. If I may my Lord there is an issue that was raised in my learned friends reply er which er was a new point er and where I do take issue with him and this concerns the issue of the relevance of the directive here the, the issue relating to er whether or not the er Lloyd's Act and the society have got any relevance in respect of the directive, his submission as I understood it, was that under article one, eight, nine the directive only addressed itself to states, to the British Government and that therefore the reliance on the directive by the society and in relation to the Lloyds Act was er a misconceived er reliance. My Lord I'd like to pass up to your Lordship a passage from er a leading text book written by Doctor Derek Q C and Alan dealing with European community law mm, mm and my Lord the my Lord you'll see at the bottom of page sixty nine, this is the latest edition just published this summer my Lord, erm at the bottom of page sixty nine you have an extract from the European community treaty which er defines a directive and you will see my Lord says in terms that it leaves to the national authorities the choice of forms the methods, and then if my Lord could read the passage er under that on page seventy yes my Lord the I rely on, on this passage and your Lordship has also got the full section dealing with er the nature of the directive er from er the er from the and book, I rely on this as er as indicating both the text of the, of the treaty itself and this passage from the learned authors as indicating that it is within the power of the United Kingdom yes to choose the form and methods by which directive seventy three, two, three, nine should be given effect yes and my Lord in relation the provisions of the Lloyd's Act and the er byelaws that are linked into solvency and the maintenance of er, er adequate fund and the payment of policy holders, in my submission constitute the implementation of that directive and those obligations er in, er relation to the society and that is perfectly compatible with community law er it is er the states er have variety of ways in which they can give effect er to community obligations. but you're saying in, in, in short, are you, that erm, that in the present instance erm the obligation was put on the United Kingdom government which has sort, it may have succeeded or not as the case maybe, discharge the obligation by in effect erm subject to the subsidiary provisions which you've both make reference and leaving it to to er regulate these matters that's right my Lord yes one has er, and Parliament of course did that within yes I follow, I follow that one mm does you, you might I suppose have another point on article five might you not? yes my Lord erm in namely that to the er, the duties put upon me my Lord there's a case which I want to bring your Lordships attention to in relate in relation to article five and this is the my Lord there is a further case that I want to bring to your Lordships attention well, well tell me what er, it's it's it's the case from what, what proposition are you going to cite it? erm, this is a, a case which er deals with er the issue of the suspension of a measure based upon community law, whether a national court, when a measure has been based upon community law has power to suspend it, now my Lord the er issue in was erm involved er the er decision of er the German government er to give effect to er a community regulation in the sugar sector which er required er that levies should be er obtained from sugar companies, so it was a very direct er implementation of community law erm in that sense different to the matter before your Lordship, but we rely on it by analogy and in, in this case my Lord er you will see it's in the supplementary bundle of authorities, the extra bundle because, before your Lordship, in that case your Lordship will see er between paragraphs fifteen and thirty three er the er European court indicating that where a measure that has been based upon a community er, er law is challenged before a national court that the national court er should er only er engage in the er, er suspension of such a measure, erm if there is serious doubt er this is erm my Lord er at er paragraph twenty three of the case er and we say that er if you look at the criterions they are not dissimilar from those that have been adopted by the House of Lords as a matter of English law in the case mm we say that it is it sounds very much the same, the same line, I mean it'd be very odd if any court came to a conclusion that one put on a fanciful grounds erm suspend or ignore any, any er particular part of European law well that's right my Lord erm it's a serious matter yes but er and er and we say here that er in respect of directive seventy three, two, three, nine, contrary to what my learned friend has said, we say the passages in the V D S case yeah that I've already drawn your Lordships attention to say that erm the policy holders protection can be given effect to and er that er that er it does not have er the broad construction all encompassing construction that eighty five three is the only route that my learned friend has submitted yeah we also rely on the fact that the case that I've drawn to your Lordships attention yesterday, is this was the case in the supplementary bundle where your Lordship will recall that er on the issue of export credit guarantee yes,answer your point Mr it does, er, er this particular point, if you take the directive as I understand yes your suspicions, tell me if I've got it wrong, erm, it is that er erm are concerned through the chain of command that you've identified, let's say the United Kingdom in effect will be leaving it to to er, erm to deal with virtually all er aspects of solvency and protection of policy holders erm the subject to let us specifically prescribed by the er nineteen eighty two Insurance Act yes my Lord erm that's one path one could look, er down, the, the other part one could look down to one not is article five erm yes my Lord which is er, an obligation imposed on national course among others, erm we need to read it to ourselves mm and your point in this context, it, as I say the context in which I've asked you to address me, I suppose you would say, erm given the matters are arguable or whatever the test is under those issues, er, nevertheless if you allow the case that's been put up, erm, either by way of defence or by way of set up or by way of counter claim to impede the collection of funds, erm, then er you are not then you are erm, erm taking a measure which could could, jeopardize the of the objectives of this treaty, er whereas I image you will say, or you might say, I don't know, erm, provided this doesn't impede the collection of central funds erm, in the meantime, if er the defendants wish to pursue their counterclaim to trial then er, there's nothing to prevent them from doing so my Lord our immediate concern is precisely the one you've identified, the collection of monies from central yeah fund, er and we say that er, er we hope your Lordship will be with us on the main issues, but if your not, we say there are very powerful reasons of English and community law including er the obligation on the court under article five, to ensure that the, er the, the trials some two years hence lasting some five weeks with all the expert evidence, my learned friend says will be necessary, should not in the interim have the effect of er frustrating er the operation of er apparently valid provisions in the United Kingdom statutes and the Lloyds Acts and byelaws, which er, are themselves measures that have been adopted so as to pursue the policy well, yeah, yeah, sorry to have to stop you again, but I think, with great respect one could, I think this point shorter, I'm only putting it back to make sure yes I understand it, is that erm, even given that this case is arguable, erm alright let it be argued out, but if, if er, before it is argued out you're not entitled to collect money from a simple fund, you are frustrating the objectives of the directive yes my Lord and that is erm, erm the way I suggest it to you, that would be directly contrary to article five yes my Lord nothing to stop the defendants if they er wish to do so pursuing, preparing their counterclaim, erm, but the one thing it cannot do, even if the English law for example set- off would otherwise permit it, er is to, would, would be to prevent the, the collection of funds, because if the English law was set off and did do that, that would be running contrary to the directive mm and erm something which this court er presumably now doesn't have any jurisdiction to do otherwise it would be breach of article five er, yes my Lord, there's the prior point that we er, we would submit as indicated in the skeleton of the eleventh of November that on its true construction, erm the central fund byelaw, article ten in particular er gives rise to a payment of a specified sum, ascertain sum, payable forthwith on demand, it's rather like the example your Lordship gave of the Barclaycard or the cheque, if my learned friend is right well maybe that would be to English that's right, that would be to English law questions which we're certain of interest today no, no my Lord er on whether or not, erm thi this erm European community defence could amount to a set-off er in the face of erm rule ten, the central of fund byelaw yes my Lord very interesting question to address yes as a matter of pure English law, at the moment I have no idea what the answer is yes my Lord erm what I was putting to you was, do you, do you say that even if it would as a matter of pure English law, it is overridden by community law erm, er, er at least er, at least for the time being yes my Lord because er, if it wasn't, then there would be a frustration of directive seventy three, two, three, nine yes my Lord yeah, follow that, er in so far as it's, it's a counterclaim of course, erm, but then er er unlike a, a set off, with the set off was established as a matter of English law, that, as far as the counterclaim is concerned, the course as I understand the rules is a very large measure of discretion, as to whether or not it er, it stays the claim on, or, erm, erm simply say no they'd be a judgment claim, immediate enforcement, and of, the counterclaim go off to trial yes my Lord yes my Lord I Tie the, I was just trying to tie the submission back to the, to the situation in which we are presently in yes my Lord yes my Lord I think it's also helpful to add that in the case erm, er your Lordship will find at er, maybe helpful if you could very briefly look at that judgment my Lord that's erm this is in the supplementary er, the, the small file that's your that is your blue bundle? it is my blue bundle my Lord yes er and tab my Lord I'm afraid I don't, I don't have a tab on my note what's it for? yes tab seven, four my Lord yes and my Lord er in relation to this judgment er you've got the courts setting out the principal at page er one stroke five, forty, paragraph fourteen of the judgment that's the principal of suspension and it's then got it's conditions for suspension on the next page, paragraph twenty two I haven't actually got the, got page, it's rather a long case it is a long case my Lord where?, where? five forty five forty paragraph erm paragraph fourteen this is the principal of suspension yes then overleaf my Lord you've got the conditions of suspension being indicated by the Court Justice yes and my Lord you'll of noticed that in paragraph erm er thirty er they talk about the importance of taking the community interest into account and have proper guarantees and in this instance overleaf on page five, forty four, er they talk about the financial risk to the community, this of course was in the agricultural yes sector, a different sector, we're only relying on it by analogy they talk about the position of requiring the applicant by guarantee such as the deposit of money or other security, and my Lord our submission is, is very simple, er that, er the, the measure that are seeking to recover under are linked into solvency and the payment of policy holders, there's a community interest there in the directive, but if, er for any reason your Lordship feels there's a, a matter that needs to go on and further to, to, to a lengthy trial, that in the interim what would be compatible with the community object would be to ensure that the monies are recovered into settlement fund er so that the solvency and payment policy holders can continue yes but as we stress this is a subsidiary argument that we point yes, those are, those are the three grounds then on which you yes my Lord let's put it accurately, erm, it would be as presently advised submitting to me in effect events which yes my Lord possible then yes my Lord yes, well is there any more you want to say on that, is er, er, er, subject to Mr as you say of course, erm I just simply wanted to know erm so that I can have a, a, a look, erm at what on one view, erm might be the, the case, it might clear be the conclusion that you er incorrect in or partially incorrect or I was unable to answer all the questions er at this stage yes yes I think then my Lord I I do have some other observations on matters with Mr but it maybe more economical and effective on the new issues to wait until after Mr has addressed you and to deal with them at one point I would of thought so Mr yes, yes, erm, alright well Mr Mr erm this is a rather odd exercise in a way and as you know my first thoughts were they were better to leave it to see what, how the, how the judgment came out of it, but erm, erm, I do regard the matter as er, as a, as a whole as of very considerable importance both to both sides of this case and erm, it did seem to me on considering it, er, from recovering from the dentist that er, an, an outline of erm oh yes what parties might erm be minded to yes contend and submit yes er in certain events might be helpful my Lord yes yes oh my Lord I think there are I think I'm not I think bound ny anything you have said this afternoon, it's just, if you're able to indication or you, if you want to keep your powder dry you're perfectly entitled to do so my Lord I'm happy to give an indication and yes with the caveat that, in the light of your Lordship's judgement we, we may wish to and change, erm first of all with regards to the commission, your Lord, your Lordships taken to Delimitis erm Delimitis was the case of one which the commissions noticed was grounded erm, your Lordship of course has the right to seek information to the commission to seek erm information as to the status of the proceedings, whether the commission have any market reports which maybe useful and so on mm your Lordship can't ask for information which maybe confidential to some other party for example what happened to the sugar case no, no I can't I can't answer, the answer to the questions either can I my Lord I don't think you can sadly no I, but, but er, but,b b but fortunately that's your Lordships task er in a way erm does it so in, in a way, I mean I'm really almost be in this case be limited to simply saying can you give any idea when you're likely to, be able to produce anything other and, and they may very well my Lord, say well we have been watching with great interest what your Lordship has been doing if I and when if I was them that's what precisely I'd do too, yeah my Lordship may wish to go back to the dentist mm erm and they may say yes and they have that right to say well it's in the national court we're going to leave it there, erm, well so, so I think we would be reluctant to see it go to the commission erm Delimitis does say in the paragraph after what, after fifty three it says well your alternatives is to send it off to Luxembourg mm and that maybe something your Lordship may wish to consider, I'm a little bit baffled as to why my learned friend has gone for cases on interim measures, we're not seeking interim relief, we haven't sorted interim injunction, erm to suspend the validity of any particular measure that was the basis of all of his case well that maybe true, but I think it's working off an analogy on that, turning it the other way round and saying well erm if, if I got to the stage of erm, well possibly even seeking some information from the commission, well certainly if I gave you a conclusion for example, that it should be referred, erm and I think again even if I came to the conclusion that I should neither want, er there's no point in seeking information from the Commission, nor should I refer it, or at least refer to the stage erm what his clients would be saying should be done in the interim and what he says in effect, for the reason he's outlined is, er that we should proceed on the basis of erm the validity of the act erm and of the byelaws mm, but my Lord that can I take that and, and then following through the suggestion I've put to him, erm, erm on one scenario at least to, it could even you, erm perfectly erm able to pursue your counterclaim mm, mm but not to use it by way of fending off calls for central fund money mm that again is the same expression as, that is Mr bottom line mm er he wants money coming in to the central fund er if has in two years time to face a, a trial, these allegations so be it, but meanwhile he wants the money to come in to the central fund for the reason he's outlined well let me take, take that stage by stage mm first of all if there's a reference, no question of validity arises, what would happen is proceedings are stayed, subject to turns that your Lordship may direct or order and then is that, is that that's what happens well is it is what happens is it what's bound to happen? no my Lord no, my Lord that is what prima facie happens, I mean my Lordship well is it the case or I mean, or, or, obviously I stayed it, erm well there was nothing left which wouldn't there was no point in doing anything else, no no my Lord that's right, but, but, that doesn't mean to say that if your Lordship didn't stayed there would be any, if your Lordship did or didn't stayed or any part of it doesn't compute a validity of section fourteen until one's got a judgment saying, it's bad for example, I mean that's what we're arguing about until such and the well that's, that's right, you're quite right Mr that's why I then, I then put Mr points in the context of where we've got to mm because er, if he, if he didn't get a clean win on these my Lord points if he didn't I think that's only the time a problem arises yes erm that the question then arises are you, are you er able put the matter up as a, as a defence as a set off or as a counterclaim with a stay of execution on the claim my Lord erm first of all if your Lordship stayed the counterclaim your Lordship would be staying the claim under article eighty five and your Lordship would be denying the direct effect of article eighty five and of course no, no, no, no no, no stay, no stay of the counterclaim well my Lord, yes the stay of the counterclaim as a set off, that would then be denying article eighty five as a shield well of course it wouldn't undermine the defences based upon article eighty five per se, the other ways, I mean the set off is simply one way in which the defence arises, it arises in three other ways as your Lordship seems to have an opinion, security or set off is simply one of the ways the defence, but it's not the only defence, so to simply state that part of the defence would not get the, would not mean that the article eighty five defence erm, er, evaporated in any way shape or form, the whole defence would have to be stayed so that there was none, no defence left, a defence on article eighty five there are incidentally I think bits of, even there is a duty of care isn't there which, there's duties floating around in your defence somewhere er yes and co yes my Lord there is of course a great deal more in respective although I suspect there's, there's what you're gonna stand on they, er, they may well my Lord mm which have to be, er, er I'd heard it's round about January sometime is that right? February the twenty eighth is it? February the twenty eighth, end of February, yeah, my Lord so of course erm staying the counterclaim as a set off wouldn't really progress much further because after eighty five, I mean that's simply a subsidiary way in which the defence arises, article eighty five arises primarily because we say underlying the arrangements are void and you're enforcing something, which is void and you can't do it, that's not a set off claim, but your Lordship I mean, my Lord that's why that doesn't really get them any further, my Lord they've always had outstanding, which they've never pursued er for order fourteen so they can always ti try as they said they will for the other erm, erm preemptive attacks upon us mm erm strike out, interim payment, order fourteen er itself, there's always still available to them, erm that the other side of the coin is if they get their money and of course they're going to be threatening bankruptcy for some four thousand odd Names, I mean that's, that's equally devastating to individuals, erm my Lord, one would be into a type of argument on balance of convenience if we were at this stage, one would be considering the bankruptcy of the names, whether they have the funds to pay, even if judgment is given against them because vast majority don't and what would be the point of giving judgment,this order fourteen cases saying one shouldn't do it in those circumstances, what if the names are right, will they get the money back, will they get a cross undertaking damages and pre er, er and to what extent do now have the funds, to what extent will it actually effect their business in the light of of mm the state of the premium trust funds, these are the sorts of consideration one would need to take into account, er a no doubt they would, they'd need to be argued fully at a, at a later stage, but the only question here is, if your Lordship refers and there's going to be some delay, well, erm, I was trying to think of an analogous case er and the case which went to the European court at the beginning of last year had consequences which were potentially far more profound than this case is, it was the Case concerned the application of equal pay principles to pensions mm and er if it was applied retroactively the er estimates which were put for the European court yes was that it would er have implications in the United Kingdom amounted to some sixty billion and the attorney general came to Luxembourg to tell the court about the dire consequences, er your Lordship raised consequences in the context of an arguments under article five yes erm, my Lord, in relation to that erm and er is an example, the European court itself and only the European court has the power to limit the direct effect of the provision, they can say well it has direct effect in these circumstances prospectively, but not retroactively and only the European court, that court alone has that power, all other courts, national courts must, my Lord this is your duty under article five I would submit to enforce article eighty five and three F yeah, er, well I follow that but the argument would go, er the article my Lord that nobody was, nobody was in the business of not enforcing those, erm, but the only way I could erm fulfil, the obligations arising out of the treaty and abstain from measures that jeopardize the attainments of the objectives of the treaty, er was to allow the monies to be collected by er leaving you free to pursue your counterclaim, because then if you're right, erm then you would achieve everything you are entitled to achieve, by your counterclaim, that would achieve the objectives of article eighty five, erm whereas the collection of the money would achieve the objectives of the directive my Lord, that was the suggestion I put to er Mr , Mr erm my Lord, my Lord, two answers then adopted you're wrong they eloquently adopted them as my Lord, erm first of all article eighty five is direct my Lordship has heard all about that, to do that would be rendering excessively difficult the enforcement of the directly effective provision and your Lordship has no jurisdiction to do that erm because we would not be able to raise it as a shield in that one respect, now if your Lordship tried and then said well alright we stay the counterclaim is a set off, then what would your Lordship be intending to do about the remaining defences to say we're not allowed defend our claim er at all on the basis of article eighty five will that be that you say remaining def what remaining defences? well the, er I mean my Lord, if your Lordship I mean if you've got other non and we're assuming set aside we're assuming for the purposes of the argument that you haven't, I mean it's gotta be, you've got other defences altogether er and indeed terms of which I haven't made my mind up yet, but with judgement and your duty of care erm may themselves solve this particular problem er my Lord yes I quite agree, but if they, if those exists well then there's a, erm well, I suppose again Mr might actually then adopt even further my article five suggestion say that you're not allowed to, to run those because they'd be contrary to the directive, but er we'd have to wait and see that would be to completely undermine the effect of article eighty five, we simply wouldn't be able to raise our shield at all, we would have a counterclaim but at which point since we had no of what erm, for example as one of it's principal defences, defences, erm we would say we've made the plaintiffs case very much easier, they've now got all our money, we're bankrupt, we can't pursue our claim because we've got no money to pursue it with in article eighty five would of been completely undermined because we would not of had a realistic opportunity to raise article eighty five as a defence and your Lordship to do that would of had to not only set aside the counterclaim as a set off, but also to set aside the entire eighty five defence to stayed it or to have set it aside but of course we're assuming for the purposes of the argument that er, that erm, your that is a matter of Eng English law, the matters of which you make complaint are a defence or set off my Lord we there is er but if there're not My Lord we've assumed as a matter of English law that I think the counterclaim can arise as a set off, but the other matters are a matter of community law mm not English law yes my Lord, er, er, in, in my submission the, the, the highest really could put their case is that if the matter were referred your Lordship simply didn't stay proceedings or permitted them for example to apply for interim payment or permitted them to take some procedural steps to pursue their action so that they weren't unduly delayed should they succeed at the end of the day and that would be a major concession because it would run against a normal rule cos on a reference the entire proceedings are stayed, that's not a case just saying even if that is done, er that anybody is saying that particular measure is or is good is not good or may not be forced in the interim mm because validity of the section fourteen is the question for ultimate trial, we're not seeking interim relief against that, we haven't done that my Lord that in our submission is the highest and the best that they could achieve erm properly erm which was to avoid a stay on a reference and they could then continue with the proceedings rather than be put off for a, a very, you know what maybe a year and a half, er if the court dealt with it in the normal way, or perhaps even a little bit longer, erm, but to actually go to further than that and to deny the defendant the right to put up a, a proper E E C defence, my Lord in my submission would be erm without the jurisdiction of the court. yes My Lord erm just to sweep up one or two of the other, very briefly the points my learned friend has just raised, erm I, I think it follows that our provisional position at the moment is that we think that reference is probably more satisfactory than simply going to the commission, what went, if your Lordship went to the commission and then found that they were unsatisfactory or didn't really take matters further, for one of the reasons it might very well not, is because the original complaint put to the commission was not framed in the same way as the defence and counterclaim are now framed, er there's been a very considerable amount of refinement, both parties would no doubt wish to put submissions into the commission as to how the answer should be put or to provide information so the commission can answer them and so on and so forth and it may not be any quicker doing it that way mm than going to the court, erm for the only attraction of that is would be if you could both be able to tell me that if I erm, wrote them a letter, or you wrote them a letter on my behalf erm and they say of yes they are going to deal with this erm next Friday or something it would be quite good idea to wait till next Friday, but the, the chances of that seem to be totally remote my Lord I would think that now probably not even that high apart from anything else er, er, er your complaint has been rather overtaken by events and, and both parties would no doubt wish to to or may well wish to take further, er, but I think you'll both agree that prospects of er let say getting any meaningful answer out of the commission by Christmas are remote. Well my Lord the position as er your Lordship is aware from the letter exhibited to Mrs affidavit is the commission were informed in neutral terms mm about this hearing yes they've had a copy of the order, we have heard no reply from them so no My Lord very briefly just sweeping up one or two points, my Lord I don't think I need to because as I say we're not challenging the law, erm I don't think that's the right context in which these, these problem arise yes er my Lord simply directives under one art article one, eight, nine, erm I can, very simply say in relation to the Lloyds Act and to the bye laws they were adopted ten years after the directive, there can't therefore be an implementation, they, they, the the implementation is fully set out in the Insurance Companies Act nineteen eighty two and it quite clear now because the Secretary of S well I'm not sure I'm not sure they can't implementation I mean, we're, we're supposed to erm implement erm, equal, pension, rights for men and women mm we're not actually going to finish doing that until twenty twenty which will be er nearly forty years on really look, look, may I put it this way, we're in the directive of being able to point to something which permits the Secretary of State to delegate the function, that what's it for well I do think I have, I have those points, erm, I don't want to stop you Mr er, and I do repeat I'm going to, I'm going to rule on these matters and both parties have er, erm, will have certainly have full liberty to come back and, and deal with them, I just wanted to know in outline the present parties er to the future of these proceedings er, er the one thing that has come clear through er your submission Mr is that you're not er in any way enamoured of the idea that there should be some scheme whereby your clients erm pay their central fund and demands and er, er, and erm maintain their counterclaim here after my Lord indeed I hope that has come across very clearly yes well I'd be rather surprised if you acceded to the idea, erm, yeah, can Mr help us on that this position? my Lord I can I'm sitting early tomorrow because a witness is being cross examined by Mr got to go off to so tomorrow he simply could not er, he si simply could not be released but er with your clerk er we've been able to speak to Mr mm we've been slightly more amenable but invite to your club temerity to ask your Lordship rather me, but as I'm on my feet, er ask your Lordship whether you could sit at all early on Friday as to help Mr er, I, I was little concerned to hear Mr say that he was going to wait for Mr he had responded because that would of course then extend more into Friday, it may be more sensible if Mr could have well you would if, I think it's unsatisfactory er to get to ask Mr to deal with Mr yes my Lord and then Mr I think necessarily may be saying something the same as or, along the same lines as Mr and then Mr have er yet another go, I think it, that's in which case I'm not very satisfactory because er it means that Mr has got to reassemble his final remarks erm, twice my Lord in which case I think,ev even with Mr putting in his notice will, it's bound to take an hour yes erm may I suggest Mr if your Lordship would care to sit at ten o'clock and then think he'll get at eleven fifteen, but really in erm under very great stress he's, already lost one judge because this well I think erm, the short answer is that I can't erm, erm provide the parties with any time on Friday, er, the case, this case has already some what over run it's estimate, which has put pressure on the commercial judge as it is, there's gonna be even more pressure on Friday, erm, I'm afraid to say the, that the complexities of this case as such that I cannot erm begin to think that even if we started at ten we would erm, necessarily finish within the hour, I have difficulties starting at ten o'clock anyway, I think we'll simply have to erm, put the matter off, off until Monday morning I, Mr can't attend I really don't think that I can erm put it off er any longer than that er my Lord he'll obviously have to make enquiries as to whether he can ask his next case to, to start mm, erm because I've got to provide some, some answer before Christmas even if it, even if the answer is that I can't provide an answer yes erm, er and I'm have to take some time over this, so I think erm in the circumstances the better thing to do would be to adjourn this case till Monday morning and hope that Mr can so arrange his affairs to address me at half past ten on that day, er with Mr and with erm, whatever rights he has to erm deal with matters of this, come up a fresh in reply and to finish off, I'm gonna leave it like that, a very much, and as I say as far, as far as tomorrow's concerned that's er not a difficulty with erm, either Mr informs me which is unlikely or I can, at least get a, make a start, er on the other aspects of the judgement, alright then half past ten on Monday morning court rise Is this on yet? Yeah. Oh. Okay well, good morning. Erm I have a er an important administrative message which came from the Biology Department office, before we begin. Erm concerns the following. David , David and James would you erm please report to the Head of Department's office straight away following this lecture. . Okay well erm I hope that you'll remember from last week er what we er our discussion centred around the general way in which carriers and channels worked. And I'd like to extend that discussion this week concerning channels to look at the biological properties of channels, that is viewing th their activities in a physio in a physiological role. And what I hope that I can do before the end of the lecture is convince you that channels pay play an important role, not just in conventional excitable tissues such as nerve and muscle,but also in a wide variety of cells and membranes. For those of you who erm get a little er flustered at the at electrophysiological concepts, let me just erm begin the lecture by erm reminding you that when we talk about the current through a channel, all we're talking about is a flux. That is we can express the flux simply by dividing by the Faraday constant. That's all the current is, and the reason that we talk in terms of currents is because those are the because the major methods that are used to analyze channel activity are electrophysiological ones. But in principle, there's no reason why we cannot discuss the flux through a channel, that is its activity, in terms of moles per second. And we saw that in the calculation that I gave you at the end of last week's lecture. So let me begin this discussion then of of channels by er pointing out the methods that have been used for studying channels, and for some of you who've done the er neurophysiology course this will er be revision but nevertheless it will be pertinent to today's discussion. Okay so let's look at the methods for studying channels. Until around nineteen eighty the methods generally involved impalement of cells with glass micro electrodes. So er a a micro electrode was er fabricated and then put inside a cell and connected up with an amplifier. And then the measurement of currents, electrical currents flowing across the membrane, could be analyzed using voltage clamp techniques. This is known, for reasons that I'll point out in a second, as a macroscopic technique,and the currents were usually identified through replacement of ions selectively,and of course this can generally be done only in the external medium, because you don't have control over the internal medium. Secondly by the response of the reversal potential of th of the current to a change in ion concentration. The reversal potential of that current should shift as the ion concentration shifts, if the current is carrying is being carried by tha by that ion. So that simply that statement simply comes from the Nernst equation. And in conjunction with that, generally it's conventional to er s selectively apply antagonists to block the currents not being studied. That is if you know one particular current is antagonized by a particular toxin for example, and you're not interested in that current, then you block it. Okay, what are the disadvantages of this technique? Well first of all, as I've just mentioned, you can't control the internal medium, unless you're dealing with er some very special er large types of cells, and therefore you can't address all the interesting questions which er concern intracellular regulation of channel currents. Secondly, it's obviously impossible to look at endomembrane channels using this technique. You're you you're restricted to looking at plasma membrane channels and their properties. And thirdly, if you find that a current for a particular ion is stimulated, it's becomes difficult to describe what's happening at the level of transport, at the level of channel activity. And let me show you what I mean by that. If we're measuring the m membrane current, which here I've called a macroscopic current because we're we're integrating over a whole area of membrane,this, with respect with any given channel will comprise can be expressed in terms of the number of channels which are present, the probability that each one of those channels is open, the open state probability, and in terms of the unitary current of each channel, that is the single channel current. Thanks. Okay so this macroscopic current can be expressed in terms of the simply in terms of these three parameters which relate to the single channel properties. It therefore becomes imperative that if we see an activation of the macroscopic current, that we are able to express that activation in terms of a change in one or the other of those so-called microscopic parameters. And it therefore becomes important to study the properties of single channels. And Meas in other words measure the currents through, and study their open state probabilities. There are two important microscopic techniqu techniques which enable such studies to be undertaken. And the first one I referred to fleetingly er last week,and it's known as patch clamp, which most of you have come across before. And let me just remind you of the principles of this technique. The idea here is that you take a rather blunt er fire-polished glass pipette, and press it against a membrane. These these black blobs are supposed to be proteins and and I've tried to er illustrate the orientation of the protein by showing these er these supposedly er glyco er substi substituents on the outside of the cell. The carbohydrate constituents of the protein. Okay so th here's the pipette pressed against a cell, a high resistance seal is formed, electrically very resistant, between the membrane and the glass pipette, and you can then, if you're lucky, if you've got a s a single channel molecule under that er bit of pipette, record the currents flowing through that single protein molecule. The technique is very versatile because you can er then er go further and if you pull the pipette away from the from the cell you can,if y again if you're lucky, be left with the membrane the patch of membrane firmly sealed to the glass pipette, and you can now record in so-called inside-out mode, in which the a er physiological inside of the membrane is exposed to the bathing medium, the the the in which the pipette is bathed. Alternatively you can record in so-called wholesale mode, that is by either sucking away this patch of membrane or by applying a whole er a large voltage pulse which essentially fries it,so it burns it away, and you then gain electrical access to the interior of the cell. And having done that, you can then pull the pipette away, as shown here, and you're left with a bleb of membrane in which you're now recording in the so-called outside-out mode, which is the exact converse of the inside-out mode. Okay. So this then, all o a th these techniques when applied erm er er as an ensemble then all allow you to look at the single channel currents, the currents flowing through any given channel, and as well as the effects of external and internal regulators. However of course it's not readily applicable to most endomembranes, because most endomembranes are er not large enough most endomembrane compartments are lo not large enough to facilitate the application of this pipette. Now in fact, before patch clamp came along in in a in around nineteen eighty there were there was another technique which was available for looking at single channel currents. It wasn't er very widely used, but it nevertheless er had some important applications, and this concer this technique is known as the planarlipid bilayer technique. And the idea of this technique is you take er a erm a chamber which is split into two compartments by a teflon partition,shown here, you fill the two compartments with an aqueous solution,okay , and you can then paint across a small hole in this Teflon partition a solution of phospholipids in a solvent, for example endecaine and when these phospholipids are painted across the er solv the er the small hole in the Teflon partition the solvent collects, here I've magnified it, collects around er the the edges of the hole, and leaves you with a what turns out to be a simple bilayer, a phospholipid bilayer. So the membrane thins down, the solvent collects rounds the around the outside and er you're left with a pure bilayer of phospholipid. You can then take vesicles which you would have prepared erm biochemically, either through first purifying your protein or, more crudely, a er a s a partially purified membrane fraction, and fuse those with the artificial bilayer. And vesicles will fuse under the influence of an osmotic gradient. So you apply an osmo you in introduce the vesicles into into one chamber, apply an osmotic gradient, and those vesicles then fuse with the artificial bilayer, and again if you're lucky you see a single channel erm appear in the bilayer and you can then stop the fusion process to stop more er channels appearing. Okay. And once you've got er the channel in there, you can then record its activity simply by putting micro electrodes into these two er compartments A and B here. So then this technique enables you to look at single channel currents, and moreover, if you've got a partially er purified preparation of endomembranes it enable to to look at channels in endomembranes too. However a disadvantage of this technique in comparison with patch clamp is that you can't always guarantee the orientation of your channels, so that if you see some kind of rectifying characteristic in the bilayer er you have no way a prior of knowing whether that rectifying er characteristic is associated with an influx or an afflux from the cytoplasm. So that's a a partial er disadvantage that you can't establish the orientation. But it nevertheless enables you to look at er potentially at single channel currents from endomembranes. Okay so having established then that you can look at the er er you can look at single channel currents,let's look at what those erm er currents can tell us. Erm on the overhead before last I I gave you a little equation which demonstrated the importance of measuring single channel currents and it ga and it had implicit in it an open state probability which reflects gating. So let's just look at gating for a second. And you'll remember that that the definition of gating is simply that channels switch between open and closed states, they gate open or closed. Okay. What the results from these single channel techniques demonstrate, that is the patch clamp or the bilayer techniques, what these results demonstrate is that the factors enhancing macroscopic channel currents invariably act at the level of gating. That is either voltage or ligands, in the cases respectively of voltage activated channels or ligand activated channels,both of those factors will act at the level of gating. In other words they increase the open state probability, they don't increase the number of channels, or very very rarely do they increase the number of channels, or the unitary current through each channel once it is open. They don't increase the single channel current once it's open. And just to remind you the open the open state probability can be defined as the time that the channel spends in its in the open state divided by the total time of the recording. So for example, here's a case of a calcium-activated potassium channel from a cultured rat muscle cell. And it's a patch clamp recording which has been done in an inside-out patch, that is with the physiological inside of the membrane facing the bathing medium, so we have experimental control over what the er physiological inside of the membrane is seeing here. And here is a recording then of the channel activity in the presence of ten to the minus eight molar calcium, that is ten nanomolar calcium. And you'll see er for this er little section of recording the channel opens very infrequently, in fact it only opens once, to a level of three picoamps. When the calcium is raised to five times ten to the minus seven molar, fifty nanomolar,then what we see here Sorry, five hundred nanomolar. What we see here then is that the channel is markedly stimulated to open, its open state probability increases, but once it is open, the level the current level which it passes, the amount of the number ions flowing through per unit time, is not significantly different from that er case in which the calcium was lower. So that demonstrates, that's an example then, demonstrating the effect of an activator on a on the open state probability rather than on the single channel current. Yeah? . Where what's the same as the other one? . Okay, the single channel current is the same in both cases. Right, it's three picoamps in each case. So you've activated the channel but you've activated it by increasing the frequency with which it resides in its open state, compared a to its closed state. Okay before we go on then and look at the roles of channels in biology, let's look at how channels are classified briefly. They're normally char er classified according to their gating properties rather th initially, rather than according to their ionic specificity. And this general approach has been supported by recent sequencing studies, so the the channels have been er the C D N A for the channels has been sequenced, and that indicates that the evolutionary relationships between channels have been based er have arisen er pri primarily on the basis of their gating properties rather than on the basis of their ionic selectivity. Within any major class characterized on the basis of its gating properties subclasses can be defined according to their ionic selectivity, but also according to their er pharmacological properties, and especially as we'll see in a second, according to their single channel conductance. And again just before we start this overview, let's just remind you what the single channel conductance of a channel is. Let's take this example which I showed you up here of the calcium-activated potassium channel. We can plot the current flowing through the channel, which is here shown on the ordinate, as a function of the holding voltage, which is shown on the abscissa here,and when we do that we get a so-called current voltage relationship. We've got current on this axis, voltage on this axis, we've got equal in this case equal potassium on each side of the membrane, so the reversal potential, here shown as the zero current intercept, that is the point at which the channel's not passing any current, is zero millivolts, because we've got equal potassium on each side, and we can simply draw a line through those data points. Okay so we measure ei th the single channel current, up here it was er three picoamps, at a holding potential I guess of around plus twenty millivolts, we measure the slope of that line, and the slope of that line is the current divided by the voltage, and from Ohm's Law that's equal to conductance. And it's commonly written as gamma. So in this particular example we've got a single channel conductance of six picoamps, six times ten to the minus twelve amps, divided by forty millivolts, four times ten to the minus three volts, and just dividing one by the other we get a value of a hundred and fifty times ten to the minus twelve siemens which is the us unit of er conductance, note it has an I in it. In other words a hundred and fifty picosiemens. So that's what the single cha channel conductance is, and that's how it's measured. It's simply the slope of the er of the current voltage relationship. Okay so for the rest of the lecture let's take a look at er what channels do. And let's begin our discussion with a consideration of voltage gated channels,and start with a well known example, that of sodium channels within this class. Sodium channels are uniquely found in animal cells, they're not present in plants or fungi or bacteria, and they're found on the plasma membrane, and their role is to carry out the depolarizing phase of an action potential. They can be specifically blocked by several toxins, for example tetrodotoxin, commonly written T T X, which comes from a Japanese Puffer Fish. It's actually a er erm Japanese delicacy. You have to make sure you've removed the er tetrodotoxin gland before you start eating, and in fact each year there are deaths in Japan from er inexpert preparation of the Puffer Fish. Another one is er saxitoxin, commonly written S T X. And both of these compou =pounds act from the outside to block sodium channels. Nu a number of other well known toxins, strychnine and er local anaesthetics which you encounter when you go to your dentists, procaine and lidocaine, both of those block sodium channels, so they inhibit the action potentials coming from sodium channels. Calcium channels by contrast with er sodium channels are very widespread in animal and plant cell membranes. Their role is invariably calcium uptake into the cell, that is the prevail when they open they will admit calcium into the cytosol, and this plays a crucial role during signal transduction processes, where elevation of cytosolic free calcium mediates in stimulus response coupling. I'll sa I'll have a bit more to say about stimulus response coupling in a second. But for the moment let's just make the point that there are at least three classes of calcium channel, and they can coexist in the same membranes,and can be distinguished by several different criteria, and this is an example of how you can use the criteria that I've discussed er previously er to to characterize different classes of channel. They can be dis distinguished on the basis of their single channel conductance with respect to barium, which they pass barium a al as well as they pass calcium. So in pi in terms of the number of picosiemens er single channel conductance for each of these channels, er each has a distinct single channel conductance of eight, twenty-five and fifteen picosiemens respectively. They can be distinguished in terms of their the voltage at which they exhibit peak activation of their inward current. Remember we're dealing with voltage activated channels here. So respectively here we have values of minus twenty, plus ten and plus twenty. They can be distinguished on the basis of their sensitivity to catecholamines, like adrenaline. So er one of the channel types is activated here, the other one is inhibited by catecholamine. They can be distinguished by their inhibitor sensitivity, specific er inhibitor dihydropyradines. Er only one of the channel classes is inhibited. And they can also be distinguished on the basis of their sensitivity to another toxin, known as omega conortoxin,er which more or less specifically inhibits just one class of channel. They've been given er labels of T L and N where the T er colloquially stands for tiny, L stands for large in terms of the single channel condu respective single channel conductances and er I'm not sure what the origin of N is. In the middle somewhere. Okay so those three discrete ch calcium channels can coexist within a single membrane. At present their s their precise physiological roles, precisely why a single membrane needs three different classes of calcium channel, hasn't been erm def defined, but at least it serves to show you that er that a wide variety of channel types can er can exist. Let's finish this discussion then of voltage gated channels by looking at potassium channels. Er these are found in the plasma membranes again of animal and plant cells and their role, and we'll er see a lot more of this next week when we try and integrate er this discussion into into into er the er principles by which epithelium work, their role is principally in the stabilization of membrane potential. And it's involved in the stabilization of membrane potential at relatively negative levels,and the reason that this works is because the internal potassium concentration is invariably held higher than the external potassium concentration. So that if the potassium channels open and therefore dominate the membrane conductance, the membrane potential will approach the equilibrium potential for potassium, that is with all the pota with a lot of potassium channels open. And we can s see this typically in animal cells, the internal potassium is of the order of a hundred and fifty millimolar, the external potassium in plasma is of the order of five millimolar. So if we calculate the Nernst potential for potassium, the equilibrium potential for potassium in other words, simply by applying the Nernst equation,fifty- nine times the log of the external over the internal potassium concentration, we can calculate a value there of minus eighty-seven millivolts. So the equilibrium potential then in a typ for potassium in a typical animal cell is of the order of minus eighty-seven millivolts, which when the potassium channels are open serves to keep the membrane in a relatively hyperpolarized state. The voltage gated potassium channels form a diverse class, as with the er voltage gated calcium channels. Er one potassium channel which is commonly worked on is known as the delayed rectifier. And the reason for the importance of this ch ch channel is that it opens when axons depolarize. So when th axons depolarize, under the influence of the opening of sodium channels, the opening of the deray delayed rectifier then leads to a repolarizing phase which occurs precisely because the equilibrium potential for potassium is held relatively negative. So that's just summarized on this diagram here, which is shown er for a squid axon, and I've plotted here the equilibrium potential for sodium, which is relatively positive, here at mi at plus fifty millivolts, and the equilibrium potential for potassium which is held relatively negative. And at this point the axon is stimulated, a depolarization occurs which is associated with the opening of sodium channels, which then close. And the repolarization is associated here with the opening of potassium channels. So we can express then the overall form of the action potential in terms of the differential activity, first of sodium channels and then of potassium ac channels. And of course the the rationale for its label of delayed rectifier is now apparent, it shows some delay before it's open before it opens. As indeed it has to if the action potential is to occur. An example of a potassium channel inhibitor is tetraethylammonium. There are no very highly specific organic inhibitors for potassium channels. Evolution seems to have er devised a large number of specific inhibitors for sodium channels but not for potassium channels. Now if you look at that er figure you'll see that er the sodium channels during the action potential of course are closing, and that's allowing er partially allowing the repolarizing phase to occur. And that phenomenon, is known as inactivation, and it's a property shown by most by the vast majority of voltage gated channels. What inactivation is, is it means in the presence of a continuing depolarizing stimulus, the channels will close, they switch off. So here's an example. The depolarizing stimulus is given here, moving the membrane potential from minus seventy-five to minus fifteen millivolts, so there's the there's the command pulse. And we're now measuring the sodium current flowing through the membrane, here given in terms of nanoamps. And it's an inward current so by convention it's shown as as downward and negative. So in the presence of a sustained stimulus, here, which is lasting around two milliseconds, the channels are switching off with a time constant of what around half a millisecond. Furthermore, if you give a second pulse, a short period after the first pulse, you fail to elicit a large sodium current. So the second pulse then, is mu it evokes a much weaker current than the first pulse did. And that's also because the channels have inactivated. Now both of these responses distinguish inactivation from gating. We're not simply talking about opening and closing in response to a stimulus then, this first stimulus has left the channels in a state in which they're relatively unable to gate open. So we have two phenomena here, one of which is gating, the opening and closing in a simple on a simple er in simple response to a stimulus, but also we have a phenomenon of inactivation, in which the channel is left in a state where it's unable to respond. And of course the function of inactivation is to allow the membrane potential to recover after the channel's open. You can't allow membranes to exist permanently in a depolarized state. We've got it's in other words it's a sort of negative feedback. So to summarize that in terms of a of of a kinetic diagram, we can basically write that channels exist in closed and open states. Typically the closed state can comprises c com more than one type of closed state can be kinetically distinguished but let's not worry about that right now. Er we can we've at least distinguished that channels can exist between closed and open states, and the transition between the closed and open states is known as gating. But in addition once they're open they can also inactivate to the extent that they're no longer respon responsive to the stimulus that opens them, to the voltage stimulus which opens them. So we can distinguish then a third state in w which we can call an inactivated state and which will leave the channel closed, but also unable to respond as it would be able to do if it resided in a simple closed in a simple closed state which were responsive to gating. So this summarizes then the two processes of gating, here, and inactivation, here. As I alluded to earlier on, voltage gated channels have been cloned and sequenced and they show first of all homology between all three classes, sodium, er calcium and potassium. And you can also determine from the sequence that the common evolutionary origin er was er centred around potassium channels. Potassium channels formed the probably formed the evolutionary prototypes for all of the for the calcium and sodium channels which came later on. Okay that's all I wanted to say about voltage gated channels then, let's erm turn our attention to so-called ligand gated channels which form rather a discrete class. Ligand gated channels are erm specific to er excitable tissues, their found in synapses, neuromuscular junctions, and of they're involved in intercellular communication with the communication being achieved by neurotransmitters. So the neurotransmitters then bind to receptors which are which are the same as the channels, the channel is both the receptor, the ligan binder, and er and an ion channel, and it's located at the postsynaptic membrane or at the surface of the muss muscle fibre if we're dealing with a neuromuscular junction. So it's on the on the down side of the of the s of the signal. In general, this is a general point, the ionic selectivity of such channels is much less than for voltage gated channels. It's they show a rather a broad specificity and can generally are generally rather non-selective either for cations or for anions. So we can't we don't usually talk about ligand gated channels being sodium channels, they'll normally pass more than one type of cation fairly non-selectively, they don't really mind. Let's just consider a few important examples, probably the most famous of which is the acetylcholine receptor. Known as the also known as the nicotinic acetylcholine receptor er cos it will respond to nicotine. It's found at the junction between motor neurones and skeletal muscle. It is gated open when it binds to molecules of acetylcholine, and in accord with what I've just said about its selectivity, it's a non-selective cation channel. Its function its physiological function is simply to depolarize the membrane when it binds acetylcholine. So physiologically what happens is that the principal flux through the channel is that of sodium, and that's simply, although although the er channel is non-selective it's simply because the sodium is at high activity outside, low activity inside and potassium is reasonably close to equilibrium. This then, this depolarization then allows the opening of voltage gated calcium channels, the calcium inside rises and contraction occurs. Muscle contraction. So the aim when th when the acetylcholine binds is to depolarize the membrane facili which facilitates the rise in internal calcium and that leads to muscle contraction. The channel itself is a complicated one, it comprises five subunits, in the stoichiometry alpha two, beta, gamma, and delta. They've all been sequenced. They are all homologous and membrane spanning. So you need these these five different subunits to er to form the acetylcholine receptor and channel. The channels are antagonized by a compound known as alphabungarotoxin which is obtained from sna snake velom, venom. Two er other channels that I'd like to consider which have rather different functions are both er chloride channels. One is known as the G A B A, A receptor, where G A B A is standing for gamma amino butyric acid, this is the G A B A receptor. It's found in brain and the equilibrium potential for chloride is around minus ninety milliVolts, that is more negative than the normal membrane potential which is which would be of the order of minus sixty minus seventy. So when this channel opens then, the membrane potential will tend to move towards the equilibrium potential for chloride, in other words the membrane will tend to hyperpolarize, when these channels are open. So opening of these channels will hyperpolarize the membrane, and as a result of that opening what we see is an inhibition of action potentials. The membrane's maintained in a in a hyperpolarized state and that inhibits action potentials, and that enables coordination of pathways which either fire or don't fire in response to a depolarizing stimulus. So these channels sh show significant although not er sig al although not extensive sequence homology with the nicotinic acetylcholine receptor which enables you to place them in the same class of being er a ligand er binding channel. Had similar evolutionary origins. It binds barbiturates. Similarly the glycine receptor is also an inhibitory chloride channel, also found in brain and closely related to the G A B A, A receptor. So both G A B A and glycine are er physiological neurotransmitters er and it has a s the glycine receptor have a has a similar function of hyperpolarizing the membrane when open, inhibits action potential. It's er like sodium channels, inhibited by strychnine. Okay finally, a third m major er class of ion channel i which has been extensively worked on over the last few years, since the advent of patch clamping er has been second messenger gated channels, so-called second messenger gated channels. Let's just remind you what second messengers are, because they ply play a vital role in cellular homeostasis. They are second messengers are intracellular compounds, for example cyclic A M P, or ions, for example calcium, and what they do is they couple stimuli to responses, they couple a specific stimulus, each one a specific stimulus to a specific cellular response. So in other words we can write the general scheme, a stimulus leads to an increase in the se level of the second messenger, and that increase in the level of the second messenger leads to a response. Second messenger gated channels are very widely distributed, they're certainly not limited to excitable tissues. One very extensive class is er is a calcium activated potassium channel, where calcium's now activating from the inside as we've already seen in that example I showed you early on. Commonly written as a k brackets C A channel. They are found at the plasma membrane, they have a for a for a channels, a very large single channel conductance of the order of fifty to two hundred picosiemens. They are generally inhibited by a compound known as apiamin which is the main ingredient in bee venom. And they have rather distinct roles depending on where they're found. One role is as a link between internal calcium intracellular calcium and the membrane potential. And one very well worked on example here concerns that of er pancreatic beta cells which secrete insulin in response to glucose. These are the er these are the cells which will raise the insulin in your blood in response to elevated blood glucose. And the way in which er these calcium activated K channels pla play a role in this response is that when these beta cells see glucose, they depolarize, and this depolarization leads to the opening of voltage dependent voltage gated calcium channels. The opening of those channels leads to an elevation of intracellular free calcium and that elevation of intracellular free calcium is required it's the signal the stimulus for insulin secretion. So the elevation of calcium will secrete insulin. Now if the stimulus is not sustained, if the if the glucose stimulus is not sustained, the calcium load can be cleared, the elevated free calcium inside the cell can be cleared for example by a calcium A T P ase, since the calcium channels were shut. Okay so if the stimulus isn't there the membrane doesn't depolarize any more, the calcium channels shut and the calcium load gets cleared from the cytosol by a calcium A T P ase. However if the glucose is maintained high, in other words if the stimulus is sustained, what we see is a succession of depolarizing spikes, and the reason we see it is because this elevation of free calcium, not only leads to a insulin secretion, it also leads to the opening of calcium activated K channels which tend to hyperpolarize the membrane. Okay the so as I said earlier opening K channels will hyperpolarize the membrane. So the membrane then hyperpolarizes, but the stimulus is still present, and that's tending to lead to a depolarization, so we get then this circle of membrane depolarization followed by hyperpolarization, but it's the calcium activated K channels which are tending to restore the membrane potential to negative values. A second function which I don't want to dwell on now because I'm gonna deal with it in a lot more detail next week, is o o this is a second function of calcium activated K channels, is to release potassium from epith epithelial cells during fluid and electrolyte secretion. Er for example secretagolgs such as acetylcholin acetylcholine lead to an elevation of intracellular calcium as we've just seen, and that can then lead to K release potassium release through calcium activated K channels. But we'll deal with that phenomenon in a lot more detail next week in the context of epithelial cells. And finally just before we leave second messenger gated channels, I'd like to consider two more which have been worked on er extensively and one of which we'll er deal with er next week. The one we'll deal with next week is the case of cyclic A M P activated chloride channels, these are found in secretory epithelia. Betaadrenergic agonists elevate the er stimulate chloride secretion into the lumen, and the way they do this is they raise cyclic A M P levels obviously and activate the chloride channels. And we'll see how the chlor the opening of chloride channels leads to secretion, next week. Importantly the chloride channels are not directly activated by the elevation of cyclic A M P, what they are activated by a is by a protein kinase A meded phos mediated phosphorylation. So it's the cyclic A M P then which activates the protein kinase A and that phosphorylates the channel to activate it. The last class of erm second messenger activated channels that I'd like to deal with is are those calcium channels which are found in the in endomembranes, especially in the endoplasmic reticulum which are gated open by a compound known as inositol one four five trisphosphate. Some agonists, for example acetylcholine, in pancreatic islets activate a specific phospholipase in the plasma membrane. This is a phospholipase C and what the phospholipase C does, when it's activated by the agonist, is it splits a membrane phospholipid phosphotadylinositol four five bisphosphate into two components, a water soluble component inositol and a lipidic component the lipidic residue diacylglycerol. The water soluble component, the I P three, the product of this, diffuses to the endoplasmic reticulum where it gates open a calcium channel. So having diffused to the endoplasmic reticulum it can gate open the calcium channel, and this leads to an elevation of internal calcium, not from the external medium now, but from internal stores. The channel is specifically inhibited by heparin albeit not physiologically, heparin's not a physiological ihibit inhibitor of this channel, it's not found inside cells, but it can be ex experimentally potently inhibited by heparin. Curiously the channel when it's cloned and sequenced, exhibits around fifty percent homology with a calcium channel which is found not in the endoplasmic reticulum but in the sarcoplasmic reticulum of muscle cells. And it's this sarcoplasmic calcium sarcoplasmic reticulum calcium channel which mediates calcium release for muscle contraction. Physiologically this channel though, rather than being activated by inositol one four five trisphosphate this channel is probably primarily activated by voltage by in other words by membrane depolarization. And one can show that it has a discrete inhibitor specificity compared with the inositol trisphosphate gated calcium channel in that this one is specifically inhibited by a plant alkaloid known as rhinadin. Okay let me just summarize what we've erm covered today then. We began by considering that channels can be studied by conventional or macroscopic techniques, or alternatively by so-called microscopic methods, which enable us to look at single channel currents. And the two microscopic methods that we discussed were patch clamp and planarlipid bilayers. We decided that the the otential the action potential of course are on Editor A look at control, we can look at single channel currents. We looked at channel activation, either by voltage or by ligands, and decided that activation is almost invariably achieved by effects on the gating mechanism. Rather than on the single channel current or the number of channels. So that lead to an increase in the open state probability. We then went on to look at several classes of er ion channels, voltage gated channels which form a superfamily of sodium and calcium and potassium channels. And those voltage gated channels predominate predominate in excitable tissues. We decided that most voltage gated channels exhibit a phenomenon known as inactivation. That is they switch off spontaneously even in the presence of the stimulus. We went on to look at ligand gated channels, and in particular three different classes, acetylcholine gated, glycine gated, G A B A gated. And decided that these channels occur predominantly at post-synaptic or on the muscle surface. Margaret? Yes. That sort of Right. The Christmas luncheon, we've had the menu come from Mr . But this is the menu. Oh! Here it is. And erm we've talked about it in committee and decided on the menu that is six forty. Which is the usual sort of Christmas menu, and then there is a choice of er starters and also desserts, cheese and biscuits and celery, coffee, tea or dinner, and dinner mints. Six forty plus V A T . Yes I'm, coming to that. Oh sorry! Er yes, er the six forty is plus V A T. Now they've got V A T as erm seventeen seventeen and a half. Yes. And with the wine that brings it up to about eight pounds. But we will subsidise it from the jumble sale, so Amy, I hope you have a good jumble sale ! So that the overall cost each member will be six pounds. Oh right! Yeah, six. Erm next we , er month, the tickets for the luncheon will be on sale er, from Rose. And when you buy your ticket, if you're a vegetarian please tell Rose or if you want salad instead of hot vegetables, tell her, and then we can sort it out with Mr . Right? If you could get the right money it would be appreciated. Yes. Please bring the right money cos that's such a Having just given a lot of money back . Yes. That is handy if you could bring just the six pounds. You know, and erm then that will be fine. And that's on erm Second isn't it? The, er second of The second of December isn't it? Helen? I don't know. Yeah it must, yes. November. What day would that be? I'm just coming to that. It is on Wednesday. It is on a Wednesday, the second of September. I mean, December, sorry! December. Now, that would have been a W I committee day so we've had to alter the committee to the Tuesday, so I'm afraid they'll be no handy craft on Tuesday the first of December. No handy craft because we have to have the hall for a committee meeting. Cos there's too many of us to go in the little room. Well can't you send the, the handy craft in the little room Joe? Because most of us will be on the committee. Er committee Right. which could go in the other room, if they don't want Yes. . Oh well there will be handy craft. Yes that's fine. Yeah. Fine. Yeah? Yes, that's great! Fine thank you. The Essex News to Mrs today if you want to order it, it's ten copies for pound and Home and County, as you well know, has gone up to ten pounds twenty pence. Which is rather a lot I think. It is. Is there anything coming down? Nothing. No. Not on offer? Ah! We've got nothing on offer! The coffee morning tombola made forty pounds, which was very good! And erm Maisy and Freda say that they would still like a few bottles and that for the stall please. Er, the donation for the Lion we have sent, I dunno if you've sent it, have you ro Rose? Fifty No I haven't, yet. No. No. Cos erm th the cheque book is Oh yes! With the auditor. Well we're going to donate to the Lions fifty pounds from the Victorian Fayre. There'll be a Christmas Fayre meeting on Tuesday the third November at two thirty in the hall here. And, that's for stall holders and anybody that would like to come and along and offer their services of help. Please. What date's this? Th , Tuesday the third of November. And if you've got any money left er the calendars and diaries Brenda has taken the names today and the money at the same time when you order. Because the orders have to be in so that, when Rose goes to headquarters she can fix them up. Margaret have you done the flower list? Yeah. Oh! You have? Mhm. About the flower list erm you know, when it comes to the winter time and you've got, you're getting flowers and they're expensive and that a display of dried flowers is quite adequate to bring because, come January time flowers are quite expensive. Thank you everybody who said they would do them for next year. Mhm. Erm, there are five committee members retiring. I dunno why! Must be me! They are Janice , Win Mrs Margaret , and Rose . Erm so we wish to thank them all, or I wish to thank them all very much for all their hard work and support they've given me. Erm which I couldn't have managed without them. So erm the voting papers are out today so please erm go round and get peoples' names. But you must ask the person, don't put just somebody's name down, thinking they might go on the committee, erm, you must ask them first before you put their name on the list. And then perhaps, Margaret, you'll collect them will you? And bring them up later? Yes. Thank you. Erm I don't know if anybody was erm keen to go to Denman after whe , our outing there which was most enjoyable? Erm, so if anybody would like to erm put their hand up that would like to go to Denman this coming year er, please do so or let Margaret know. Is there any takers? Er, will there be a bursary? Yes. A bursary of a hundred pounds, yes. Oh! There's erm You have to be a member for two years. Yes. And not if you've been before. No, that's right. Well Janice and Margaret sa Becky . No , Becky . Becky . And we'll talk about this in committee and let you know. Okay? Okay. Vera, would you like to say som , oh! I have to thank Vera for the holiday to Scarborough, not that I went. It's, it's not next Saturday! No. No ! Never mind. I mean it's, it was next Saturday. Oh yes! Well it was, it was from then. Erm, we wo , I would wish to thank Vera cos it's a lot of work for erm, a lot of worry and I do hope that you all enjoyed it. Now, Vera you want to say a word don't you? Thank you. First of all, I expect most of you have heard that the proposed holiday to Torbay has had to be cancelled cos we didn't have enough support. Oh. And er if you'll bear with me, I'm having competition about this, with these holidays here I haven't got anything as cheap as that probably. Oh have you? Yes Vera! But those holidays, they're in February! But And they're only two nights. Yes! But we don't Ah! But some want two nights in the middle of winter! somebody is a bit later on in the season but they're overnight travel by coach I would have thought. No good! Vera? Right. Oh! So that's sorted . I wouldn't have thought they'd be brought forward either. No. I shouldn't think so. It is ho , well you know, I suppose . Anyway , I have erm started to arrange a holiday, if you can bear it, for next September, to Newquay. The price er wi , we depart on the eleventh of September for eight days the usual additions, you know, the coach from here, and everything. And the price is two hundred and thirty three pounds with four pounds cancellation fee. Er, I've got a couple of brochures here, if you like to have a look at but don't, please, take them away. And I've got some itineraries which you can take away, if you want. If you'd like to come and get one in tea time. Er, I should like to the names next month and I hope you'll all support us because the numbers are going down and if we don't get sufficient numbers, it'll have to cancelled like the Torbay one. And that's rather a pity because we've been doing these holidays for a long time now, and I think, those people have enjoyed themselves? Say yes! Yes! Erm, I think that's all I can say to you today. Names next month. And come and get an itinerary if you want one. Okay? Ah. Thank you. Thank you. Right. Thank you! Essex News erm well we couldn't really find anything very exciting in it! The club went to Bournemouth. Er Shakespeare and Cadbury World and a Swiss wonder. Well that's in February, I mean who would go in February to Switzerland? And erm there's a five day tour to Dunoon and the Cars of Bute on the first of March. Half board, a hundred and nine pounds. Getting a little competition aren't I? But there's no takers though Vera, have you noticed? No. I'm only trying to sell the time then! Ha! But you have to do a dance when you want to fill ta time in! Oh well! That'll be the finish! Erm, we've got for friendship, Harlow's name is mentioned. Oh! Well I think that's about all. I'd, I'm afraid that's all this month in Essex News. Have you got anything else Margaret, at the moment? No. Erm, has the speaker come? Yes. Right! We'll wait then thank you. Did you get that message Margaret that I shall be away? Yes I did. And you told I've put it in my diary. Oh good! I've just got Looks like you won't have a Will she be, will she be standing there? Er Will she be standing there? Yes. Aha. Probably won't understand a word I said! She will. I feel such a natural! Yeah, it was It's innit? Ray . Ray. Oh! Margaret this is your seat. Just put it there cos she wants you to . Oh is it? Oh really? If all these people about were to be quiet I shall I was told the ring the bell so I did. Yeah. Good afternoon ladies! It's very nice to see you all here this afternoon. My name is Gloria and I run a beauty salon which is at the end of the high street by R D Argins the Mm. jewellers. Okay? I've been there two years now. And Carol has, she joined me in June. So this is Carol . So, if any of you would like to come and see us at the salon we will both be there and very happy to see and answer any of your questions. I would like, at this point, to say thank you for Sh , to Sheila,sh , Sheila , she popped in to ask me would I do this er talk for you this afternoon. So, thank you to Sheila for asking me, and letting us come to your meeting this afternoon. It's been a pleasure. Now, the topic that Sheila asked me to talk about was skin care. Now, er, there is no what can I say? There is no skin care is a very basic thing. You don't have to worry, there is no, I can't think of the word that I want to use. Never too late to start. Well it's never too late to start with good skin care. I hope so. So what is skin care? What we must do to have good skin is to cleanse, tone, and moisturize. How many of us do cleanse, tone and moisturize? How many of us here use soap and water? Yes. Okay. If you use soap and water, that's fine. But really, soap is very drying on our skin and if you didn't use soap and you use a cleanser you would certainly find a difference immediately. You don't realize how drying soap is. So we do try to avoid using soap. So what we use as a cleanser, is either a cleansing milk or a cleansing cream. Now, today I've got two types of products with me, one is Gloria M products that we're going to use as a demonstration, and the other dermatological products that we're going to use as a dem demonstration. So I'd like two volunteers later on to come and have their faces cleansed, toned, and moisturized. And then you can go and tell all your friends how it feels, okay? Now, the Gloria M products, in that range, we have a cleanser, which is cucumber cleansing milk. Now, all these products are water soluble which means they can be rinsed off with water. Gone are the days when you've got these thick creams that you couldn't get off unless you used an alcohol toner to remove them. So, a cleansing milk a little a amount in the palm of your hand put over the face, then rinsed off with warm water and then you can dry your face with a towel and you would feel then, perhaps, that you'd really washed your face. Then you must cle you must use the toner after that. And the toner really does get rid of any of the cleanser that you've left on and closes the pores. Now the fact that you've rinsed off with water anyway, you shouldn't really have any of the cleansing medium on the skin. So really we use the toner to close the pores so that you don't get any creams or any dirt in the pores, so that the skin is nice and clean. So you cleanse, you tone and the most important thing after that okay? Is to moisturize. Now in the Gloria M products we do the avocado moisturizer or the vitaminized moisturizer. Now ladies, I don't mind if you don't cleanse properly or perhaps you don't even tone but the moisturizer is the most important, from my point of view. I feel that the moisturizer will keep your skin nice and soft. You won't get any flakiness, you won't get any dryness on the skin if you use a moisturizer. You don't have to use make up but certainly to cleanse and moisturize is very important. Now with the dermatological products, I actually haven't bought those with me apart from those that we're going to use as a demo erm, the have a very nice cleanser called special cleansing gel, and if you're used to using soap and water it really is very similar to using soap. You put a little of the gel in the palm of the hand, use water to lather it, put the lather over your face, and then again, rinse off with warm water and you feel as if you've used soap and water. We th , do then have a toner, but you don't necessarily have to use the toner because you've used to water to cleanse off the cleanser. And then, again, a very important product is the moisturizer. The moisturizer keeps your skin nice and soft and supple, it doesn't get dry. Now, don't forget we're coming up to winter, we have the cold winds, we have the rain, if you're not wearing a moisturizer the skin will suffer. Okay? It wi , really will get dry, and possibly very red. You know you get these little red veins on the su , on the cheek area if you don't wear a moisturizer those little red veins can get worse, so we use a moisturizer to try and protect the skin. So there's no secret about good skin care. It really is, only, cleanse, tone, and moisturize. It does depend on the products you use. If you've got plenty of products at home, fine, use them okay? If you haven't, if you're using soap and water, just think about perhaps, whether you should use a cleanser, a toner and a moisturizer. Alright? Now, is there anybody here who would like to volunteer to come and have their face, cleansed, toned and moisturized? Come on! Yes. Of course we go back an awful long way don't we? Yes. Yeah. Are you going to tell them how much ? Er about . Forty years? Forty years! Forty years I've known Gloria. Miss used to be a cam , the, what were you? Campaigner Chief. She was a Campaigner Chief when I was a campaigner. My lovely little girls! can you Margaret? Ca , can you see? Do you want to just round her neck? Ooh! Put a band on, just so that we don't you know, erm squash their hair. That's it. Now somebody else, we need another volunteer to try the other products er Well I'm thinking erm about it. Go on! Just so that we don't get any products on the clothes. Right. That's it. So Carol is now using the cucumber cleansing milk and she if just show the ladies what you're doing Carol, she's just actually tipping it out into the palm of her hand, there's no water necessary, okay? Rub it into the palm of your hand, and then spread it on to your own face. It will be nice if you could get somebody to do this for you every day wouldn't it? Oh yes! So when you actually are putting it on your own face make sure that you rub your fingers all around, especially around the nose. Okay? You get a build up of black heads around the nose, and around the chin. Okay? So, really make sure you spread it over the whole of the face, rubbing it in with your fingers. Now Carol's doing this beautifully, and it really does feel nice! Okay? She's massaging in the cleanser. And does it feel nice ? That's lovely! So once you've got that one, even if you're wearing make up, you can use this cleanser, okay? It will take the make up, which you might need to use the make up, er the re , er the cleanser possibly twice, or three times if you're wearing make up. Okay? We normally say cleanse twice anyway. So you should cleanse with your cleanser twice. If there is make up on from the first erm removal, then you could then take off the make up with the first application and then go over twice more, so it would be three times if you've got quite a lot of base or foundation on. Okay? So now Carol's going to use damp pads damp cotton wool to take off the cleanser. Now you at home would actually use warm water to splash over your face. Now if you notice Carol's movements, they are always in a an upward direction and the reason for this is so that you don't drag the skin, so when you're whatever you're doing with your face,whe , when you're cleansing, toning, and moisturize, always try and keep the movements going up because you don't want to stretch the face, you don't want to make any any loose skin any looser than it is Mm mm. or or bring any more erm, little wrinkles or little lines that we have. Now we're going to tone. And the toner actually closes the pores, because we may have opened those pores slightly by using the cleanser, and also, if there is any cleanser left on the skin the toner will remove that as well. And the toner we're using is rosemary skin tonic, and that's erm from the herb, rosemary. It feels nice and it's, it is very good for the skin. It usually is cold. Mm? So once you've cleansed, and once you've toned you then make sure that the face is either tissued dry or you can actually pad to your face, after the toner, with a towel. As long as it's dry before you apply the moisturizer. Have you gone to sleep down there? Carol's now going to tissue dry the toner. And now the skin is perfectly clean and it can be ah, it can have the moisturizer on it. Carole's using the avocado moisturizer which is very creamy it contains avocado oil, which is very good for the skin and it's a natural product. If you feel, ladies, that when you put your moisturizer on and the skin is still feeling quite dry, put another application of your moisturizer on. Alright? And do make sure you put plenty of moisturizer on the cheeks and on the nose, because they're areas that actually do hit the elements more than the other parts of the face. Not to forget the neck, the neck is part of the face and this is where we show the the lines don't we? Around the neck. So if you massage in the neck with your moisturizer with upward movements it will help those lines. Okay? It won't take them away once they're there they don't disappear, but it does help to ease them, they don't look quite so deep. Alright. If you actually massage the cream into the the neck. Mhm? Right. How does that feel? That's fine. Yes? Am I finished with now? Nearly. And yo do you want to straighten your hair? Mm mm. Right. Would you like sit down? Yes. Oh! That's it! Alright? Thank you very much. Do you have ? Can we thank Margaret? Thank Margaret for being a volunteer okay? Please may we have another volunteer? And this is Molly. So she's going to have the dermatological products used on her this afternoon. Do you usually use soap and water on your face? Yes. Molly uses soap and water to wash her face so we're going to use the cleansing gel which lathers up like soap. Alright? And we'll see, we'll ask her what she fe , what it feels like on her skin to see if it feels better than soap. So Carol's using the gel and she's making it into a lather. Alright? It's just a little gel that you put in the palm of your hand use some warm water and lather it up and put the lather over your face. And again, make sure that you use your finger to go round the nose, and over the fore head, around the eyes. And another thing about directions of, of your hands, upward movements all the time, and make sure with the eye area, go in towards the nose, because if you keep bringing Mm. your movements coming outwards you stretch the skin and you make even more lines come around that area. Oh that's nice! So, take your fingers from the outside and move them in towards the nose and round so that you don't stretch the skin even more. Look at your hands! Perhaps we just need a little more water to make a bit more lather. . Now of course, if you went to a salon . for a a facial cleanse you would actually laid on a couch, like this, and er have a head band and have a towel round you and you have nice soft music playing alright? Mm. So And sing everybody! and then the therapist will actually cleanse, tone and moisturize. And you would actually, in a facial, you would have a facial massage with aromatherapy oils and that's very relaxing, that's very nice. Sounds like . So we've got the cleansing gel on and now we're going to remove it. Carol's uses, using sponges to take off the gel. Yes. We haven't got any more. . The sponges feel nice and soft, they don't drag the skin. And it is important, ladies, to remove all the cleanser, not to leave any on the skin. So do make sure that whatever cleanser you're using, make sure it all comes off. Because if it doesn't, your moisturizer, which is very important, isn't working properly. Because there's not the ingredients in the cleanser that there is the moisturizer and if you have any cleanser on the skin it's blocking the work of the moisturizer. So we've cleansed off the cleanser now going to tissue dry Now toner is in a spray bottle, so we're going to gently use the spray over Molly's face. Close her eyes, it's a very gentle spray. Mm mm? It's like raindrops. And then we're going to use a very nice cream erm called moisture balance and that's a dermatological product and, and that's for keeping the skin nice and soft, and keeping the wrinkles at bay. And again, when you're putting on the moisturizer, don't forget the neck. And always use upward movements. Can you do the neck? And how's it feeling Molly? That's really lovely! You could do this all day long! It is very relaxing, really. I tell you something, it's much better than the operating table! In fact, some people when they do come into the salon they say, ooh it's like an operating theatre! It's not really. It's quite pretty in there. It's just I think, when there's a couch and there's white tissues over the couch it probably can look a little bit clinical. But certainly, we don't operate. We don't amputate. We don't do anything in that line! Thank goodness for that! I can but it is, but it is nice. What was tha er tha that one?? No, this is the dermatological. Yes. Oh. This has a lemon grass in Yeah. which you can actually smell. Would you like sit up Molly? Yeah. Right. Back down again. The only thing, ladies, when you have a facial, your hair get slightly squashed. with that on. So don't go to the hairdressers before you us, alright? Go to the hairdressers after Yeah. we've seen you. Good. There we are. There you go. Can we have a clap for Molly for Yes! for being our volunteer? They were just very quick demonstrations, but it does take longer if you come to a salon. But, with yourselves, do make sure you cleanse properly I'm not too worried about your toner, but you must use a moisturizer, just to make sure that your skin is nice and soft and supple. Okay? And if you want to wear make up then of course, make up goes over the top of your moisturizer. Okay? Erm, I have brought some price lists here, and I think we've got some time, Sheila, what time am I finishing? Erm, well you, it really doesn't matter. It's up to her. About erm twenty past three. I dunno what the time is now. Well I said, you know It's three o'clock. It's er about quarter past three. About quarter past Yeah. three. So that's a little time. So I've got a little time to speak? Yes. Yes. Erm, if you would like a price list, by all means, at the end you can come up and take one. Erm, I'll have some brochures going around, some leaflets going round just advertizing what we do but if, I'd like to just mention to you that erm, there are other, other treatments that we do, of course, at the salon. We do, a selection of facials, all are very nice erm, we also do eyebrow shaping, eyebrow trimming, some people would call that erm and removal of facial hair. Sometimes, people have problems with doing eyebrows, if they wear glasses Mm! you can't see your own eyebrows can No. you? And, you take your glasses off to do your eyebrows and You can't see them. you can't see you put your glasses on to try and see, and you can't pluck the eyebrows because the glasses are in the way so we do quite a lot of eyebrow trimming, erm at salon. And what we do with the eyebrows, we don't just use a pair of tweezers we actually use wax, so if you've got quite a lot of hair underneath your brow, we never take from above the brow, just below, if you've got quite a lot of hair, it can be painful if you're just using tweezers, so what we do now we use a little bit of hot wax, which is pink, so we put some wax under the brow, either side, let the wax erm, cool and set, and then pull the wax off. Ooh! Yes. And everybody says,so ooh! It's really not too painful, it sounds painful, but if you think of the eye area being very small, it really doesn't take long. The wax is on for about two minutes, and it takes two seconds to pull it off. And when we pull the wax off, all the hairs are in the wax so the majority of the hair is out in one pull. Then we use our tweezer to actually shape the eyebrow. And then after that we have some soothing gel put on the eyebrow so that, the skin is slightly pink so that when you actually have a, erm, an eyebrow trim, the soothing gel takes away the pinkness. And that would last six to eight weeks ladies. Oh lovely! It's it's very nice treatment. Erm a lot of us are bothered by eyebrows some of us have got really long coarse hair that grow in the eyebrows and we take those out as well. So don't ever be frightened of having an eyebrow trim because it really is a very simple treatment. And the other part of facial waxing is, on the chin, we tend to get quite a few growing on our chin, and upper lip. There are two things we can do with hair on the upper lip, we can either bleach it so that it doesn't notice, or we can actually remove it with wax, or we can have electrolysis. Now electrolysis is the permanent removal of hair by the insertion of a very small needle attached to a machine and you press the button on the needle holder which releases current, and that cooks the hair, it actually cooks the root of the hair, but each hair has to be individually treated, so if you've got quite a lot of coarse hair it can take a lot of time, and a lot of money. Okay? Normally, the time is fifteen minutes, and for fifteen minutes it's five fifty, so if you've got a lot of hair, it's quite coarse, it's going to go on for several months. So if you didn't really want to embark on that treatment we again, use the waxing treatment as for the eyebrows, we use ca ho , hot wax on the area that you need, on the chin, on the upper lip. A small piece of warm, of hot wax applied to the area, it's set, pulled off, and the all the hairs come away in the wax. And it feels really very smooth afterwards. It doesn't take long, it's just, really, seconds. It doesn't hurt because it's pulled off so quickly, and when we pull it off, we put our finger straight over the area and it takes the sting away. So really, it's not ma , you know, don't be frightened about having waxing. So we do the, waxing for the chin, and for the upper lip. So, you see, you've got other methods, you've got waxing, you've got bleaching, you've got electrolysis. But I would think, possibly, waxing would be the thing that, the treatment that perhaps you might consider. If you are worried about facial hair, they're out in just seconds. Okay? So, along with your eyebrows, and along with your facial hair and along with your erm skin treatment, your facial, you'll feel a new person won't you? Yes? Really will feel nice! And what else do you? We do manicures, and we do pedicures. Manicures are,i , are ideal for trimming your nails, pushing down the cuticles, and making your nails look into a nice shape and nice and clean. You don't necessarily have to have bright coloured polish on at the end. We can buff them until they shine, or you can have just a natural erm base coat on just to give it a shine. And then we do pedicures. Now, pedicures is really a manicure of the toes, but what we do with a pedicure, we actually rub away the hard skin that you may have on the bottom of your feet, on the side of your big toe, that's usually where it builds up, or on the ball of the foot. We are not chiropodists, we don't actually cut away the hard skin because that i is a chiropodist's job, but we certainly do have a good try at trying to get rid of as much hard skin as we can. We soak the feet in nice, erm, antiseptic soapy water, and when we think the feet have soaked enough for the skin to become soft, we take the feet out and then we rub with a foot file to get rid of the hard skin. You have a nice foot and leg massage, which really does make you feel nice. You feel, at the end of the treatment you feel as if you're walking on air! It's really a very nice treatment. A after the, the foot and leg massage, erm, we actually cut the toe nails and we file the toe nails and again, sometimes toe nails aren't terribly easy to cut yourselves, we can't always get down there can we? And also, the toe nails get very thick, and quite hard to cut as we get older, so we actually do that for you, we've got toe nail clippers that make it a lot easier. And once we've clipped the nails, we actually file the nail so that it's nice and smooth and it doesn't catch on your tights or it doesn't catch on the sheets at night. So, that is another nice treatment that makes you feel better. Okay? So that's a, a pedicure, which helps you to have your toe nails nice and short and to get rid of the hard skin. So what else do we do? We do body massage or back and shoulder massage. Now, if any of you get terribly tense at the back of shoulders which we all seem to do nowadays, if you come for just a back and shoulder massage, we actually work on the back of the neck and along the shoulders using massage movements which helps to relax you, which helps to actually break down the lactic acid that builds up in the muscles that causes you pain. You don't realize, ladies, how much you sort of, keep your shoulders up with tension. I mean, I do the same thing, I get home at night and I'm like this! And I think tt! Oh! I need a massage! But Carol and I never seem to get time to be able to do these things on each other, but we have had the treatment so we do know that massage really does help you to relax. So that's another treatment perhaps, that you might like to consider. It doesn't mean that you've got to take all your clothes off, not at all! You lie on your front and we actually take, ask you to take either your dress or your blouse off and we put towels over you. If you're wearing a bra we just undo your bra, okay? And then we work on the back. There's nobody else there, there is nobody else looking at you. A, a curtain is used to screen you off, and if it's a very cold day we've got infra-red heat we've got a lamp above the he , the couch and we actually put on the infra-red heat so we warm you up first before you start, before we start so your body is feeling nice and warm and you're feeling relaxed, we have nice music playing and it does help right, with the tension that builds up on the shoulders. Oh! So that's something else to think about. I'm telling you all this, and perhaps you don't have to erm pay for any of these treatments we do gift vouchers, so if you've got anybody who wants to buy you a gift of any sort, you could always say well, I fancy erm an eyebrow trim, or I fancy a pedicure perhaps they would like to buy you a gift voucher and then you can come in and it could be a present for you. So you wouldn't necessarily have to pay out for these treatments, you see. So erm you know, if you, if you er, don't know what to say to your family to buy for Christmas, why not come and have a eyebrow trim and they can buy you a gift voucher for that? So, you know, we're always there, Carol and I will actually help you, if you'd like to pop into the salon and ask about the gift vouchers. A gift voucher can be of any value. Alright? You don't have to actually look at the price list and say oh well I'll have a back and shoulder massage, which is ten pound, you don't have to have anything for ten pound, you can have it as little as five pounds, two pound fifty, we don't mind, it can go towards a treatment. Or, if that person buys you a gift voucher and you don't necessarily want to have a treatment that states on the gift voucher, you can come and exchange it for products. We're not worried, we're not actually keeping you to anything that's down on the gift voucher. But perhaps it would be nice if somebody gave you a gift voucher for Christmas and it said an eyebrow trim, and you were dying to have an eyebrow trim but you didn't know where to come, and perhaps you were a little bit frightened about having one, so, it might, you know, get you to come into the salon. And now that you know that Carol and I are there erm, you know somebody to speak to, cos sometimes you go into a shop and you're not really sure who's there, and when you see a face that you recognize it helps you doesn't it? Are there are any questions you would like to ask? What kind of erm aromatherapy do you pu put on your face? A what? Aromatherapy on your face? Yes. Aha. You know the therapy oils? Aha. Erm, when we do a skin treatment we actually do a skin analysis and we use the appropriate erm, aromatherapy oils for the particular skin we're working on. We have a selection of er three small bottles and they have a mixture of essential oils in them Mm. and it does depend on what skin type we're treating. Sometimes we're se , we're treating a very sensitive skin, sometimes we're stre , we're treating a very dry skin, or it could be dry and sensitive. So it does depend on what skin type, and we actually choose the erm aromatherapy oils according the skin type. Yeah. And, I must say ladies, they do smell very nice! And when we are actually doing the massage i the massage itself is relaxing but to have the sweet smelling erm, essential oils being used as well, it really is very nice! Any more questions? . Do you know where we are at the top of the high street? Not really no. I know where you are. But I wondered if everybody else knew. Okay. Do you er, actually know erm where the George is? Or it used to be the George. Mm. The big white building at the other side of the er, pedestrian crossing. Yes. About five yards. If you just continue five yards, that's right and then Jasmine Flowers is in the corner, and then the salon is just at er it joins on to Jasmine Flowers. It has a black canopy over the front and it says Health and Beauty Salon, with a telephone number and at the side of the door it says Gloria M. And please, if you come up to the door and the times of opening says closed on there, we're not closed, it's just sometimes we've forgotten to change the closed to open. But do come in. You know, sometimes we walk in first thing in the morning and we start straightaway and we forget to turn the er closed to open. So, you know, mind you, we've left it now and it says open and we're not, we're here with you! Are you open every day? We are open Tuesdays through to Saturdays. We close all day Monday, Tuesday's we're there from nine thirty to five thirty. Well good morning, Ladies and Gentlemen. Before we start the presentation I'd mention there will be hard copies of the slides available, the video is for internal use only and there should be plenty of time for questions at the end. Six months ago we reported interim results,fifty eight percent down on the previous year but held out hope for a stronger performance in the second half, in the event our os optimism was justified. And in the second half when we always make the bulk of our profits, we fought back and our second pre-tax er, er performance, exceeded by some five million er, that of nineteen ninety. This wasn't sufficient to make up the ground lost in the first half and the outcome for the year as a whole, you now see. I'd like to draw your attention to a couple of points on this slide. First, the high earnings per share after extraordinary items, which is increasingly relevant to the proposed new accounting standards and secondly,that we're recommending a maintained dividend which we can prudently do, bearing in mind our reasonable dividend cover and low net debt. We now come to the breakdown of trading profit by sector. Profits er, from oil services were well and educational publishing in the U S er, put in a very strong performance. Frank will be going into more detail on these and our other businesses, which are all facing an uphill struggle, particularly in the U K and North America, both in deep recession and which you can see continue to make up the bulk of our markets. I'd add that at the moment we do not see any upturn in any of our major markets. Before handing over to Frank, I'd like to emphasise some of the key points of nineteen ninety one. Yes, we did have a strong profits recovery in the second half, greatly helped by oil services and U S educational publishing. We had a strong improvement in operating cash generation and that and the sale of brought net debt down to a low level. B Sky B is now profitable of trading level, we increased our stake in it during the year from eleven percent to sixteen percent. Frank became the new chairman and we believe that in due course, it's gonna generate substantial profits. Finally, I'd like to mention that we shall be recommending for shareholders a one for one scrip issue. This isn't intended as any particular message, but we are now one of the weightiest shares in the F T S E index and be we believe that it should improve the market liquidity of the shares. Now, Frank. Good morning everyone. I think when we talked to you er, when we presented the interims er, we talked about the action we would be taking given the difficult circumstances and er, if I could just remind you. We said we'd be going for cost space reductions. Well, we've done that, as we said we would and of course, in a business such as Pearson, which is a people business er, although we regularly monitor employment statistics, such as total employ total number of employees er, revenue per employee, cost per employee, profit per employee, there are times when we have to take er, difficult decisions and er, so we've gone in for a lot of redundancy, which we'll see in, in er during the next slide or two. But not just redundancy, we've taken initiatives in lots of other areas, we'll show you those as well. On capital spending we tended to concentrate on that spending which would show a return on the investment and if we could we've postponed er, maintenance spending erm, renewal of cars and that kind of thing. All of our Chief Executives accept er, cash generation targets erm, either cash generation or ratio of working capital to er, to sales and that kind of thing and erm, as well as er, profit to turn over issues and that's er, stood us in good stead this year. And we've been saying to Chief Executives, if you can't get the profit or you can't get the sales, well at least concentrate on trying to, trying to get the cash, get the debtors in, that kind of thing. And we think that's er, er, gone well too. And of course, we've tried to reinforce our market positions and I think we've succeeded in er, in virtually all of our businesses. Er, now if we look at the er, staff reduction by sector. Again, when I spoke to you during the interims, I was expecting redundancies during the year of, of er, about a thousand. In the event we've achieved fourteen hundred, nearly fourteen hundred, and that follows on the six hundred redundancies we had last year. Er, and as well as the erm, staff reduction initiatives er, staff reduction initiatives that this showed you the savings er, in the year. Most of the savings of course coming next year, a small saving this year. As well as that, we managed to restrict the pay round for the whole of Pearson in the U K to four percent. Going to other cost saving initiatives erm, in the newspapers we've, we made lots of savings in newsprint. This was usually negotiating better discounts, in some of our production centres reducing the web width, which of course saves newsprint and in many areas er, in the regional newspapers reducing the distribution of our freeze in areas where we thought it er, it wouldn't affect, it wouldn't have affected the performance of the title. Er, on the book side we've managed er, considerable reductions in freight costs, warehousing and printing. In entertainment I'd think the reduc cost reductions there were pretty well, er restricted to good housekeeping, but from fine china er, we managed to transfer the, the er, work in the Minton factory to the Knowle Street factory and that allowed us to close the Minton factory and quite apart from the redundancies that entailed, we saved something like two hundred and fifty thousand er, non staff related overhead. Er, group wide, in the U S A, the er, New York headquarters staff under David 's direction achieved a very worthwhile er, reduction in telecoms, two million a year and this was by er, aggregating our telecoms erm, business and negotiating an er, one contract. And they've just about completed a second one on freight which will save two million dollars a year. And we're looking to, to do similar transactions in the U K, but of course with the lack of, or the reduced competition in the U K we, we may not do quite as well. Er, on capital ex expenditure er, most of the capital you see there was erm, investment which will show a return er, on investment. Er, the big items were Brighton where we're spending ten, eleven millions er, with the new press and the new building, which is pretty well completed er, it very shortly will be on-stream. Erm, the oil company continue to invest in capital expenditure, as it should do and er, most of that is spent between services, drilling and, and radar and at, Tussauds we continue to invest er, Alton Towers has got er, the Ghost House opening today and the Runaway Train and we were finishing off the Marylebone Road project, which is a very big, big project involving er,re the complete refurbishment er, new shops and a view right there in the basement. And so the er, the reward for our firm grip on costs and the concentration on cash is a favourable swing of, of forty seven er, million pounds in the full year and there should be more to come because now we're at the end of our er, capital spend on newspapers er, the newspapers will of course, become very substantial cash generators. We look at the er, profit of the newspapers individually. Of course it was a very, very difficult year for the Financial Times. Ad sales were down fourteen percent er, but we er, we increased our market share and in fact our market share was the best since nineteen eighty six er, when the F T was the market leader. Circulation was down four percent, but overseas we increased our circulation by five percent and again in the U K in, in newspaper sales we held our market share. Er, Profile did very well, increasing sales by twelve percent last year and following the deal with Texline er, sales moving well ahead again this year. Er, Les Echo had problems on the medical side, partly government regulation, partly the market and we've reorganized er, two medical divisions into one and that should give us er, give us some cost saving there. The newspaper circulation was up three percent to a new record at one hundred and twelve thousand, seven hundred and that was a very good performance. Ad volume was down erm, but not as much as in the U K. The economists had a tremendous year erm, really bucking the trend and contributing about five million pounds to er, F T's er, associates profits. The circulation was a new record and four hundred and eighty five thousand, nine hundred by year end and it just seems to go from strength to strength. Er, we swopped our sharing expense on the er,Sp Spanish financial daily er, with cash for a twenty five percent stake in the Group and er, one of the things this er, does is to give us a stake in, in Marca, which is the second biggest newspaper in Spain and incidentally has the same social and economic profile as El , The Times of Spain er, and it's a sport paper which sells seven days a week, two hundred and thirty four thousand circulation and its nearer, nearest competitor sells one fifty thousand. It's a very big cash generator for the very high cover price and that should benefit from this year's Olympics. Expansion itself went up erm, circulation by twenty three er, percent last year and ad sales were up fourteen percent. Westminster Press had a very difficult year. Ad volume was down er, three point four percent overall. Nearly all of that was in classifieds where erm, the volume was down about er, eleven point eight, nearly twelve percent and er, revenue down by eight point three percent. Situations vacant in particular showed a very, a very big drop and erm, and in fact we, the yield was lower than the year before, but we've er, continued with our pac press rationalization programme and er, I think as I mentioned at the interims, the Basildon Evening Echo is now printed on the F T's presses, which incidentally has got the contract to and is printing er,. Erm, but W P continued to er, hang on to its market leadership in virtually every centre and erm, despite the difficult year managed to launch er, several new titles. Er, if we turn to the revenue split I think this underscores the recession er, and you'll notice that there's a much lesher lesser proportion of revenue coming from advertising. Er, they're overall figures, but for instance the F T, which er, the year before seventy five percent of its revenue came from advertising and er in, in ninety one it was down to seventy percent. If we go on to books erm, I think that Longman performance is exceptionally good erm, of course for book business it's very much first half, second half, most of the profit coming in second half, but er, erm, Longman only dropping seven percent on the year before seems to me a particularly good performance given the environment and in fact it generated more operating cash flow than the year before. It did very well with English Language Teaching sales er, in Europe and Asia as planned and its medical and professional sponsored adver erm, business in, in Japan grew much quicker than we expected. But education in the U K and Canada was very, very tough indeed. Pitman, which is the U K leading er, business book publisher increased sales by sixteen percent and Alhambra after the er, reorganization is doing rather well and the first book we've published on the new Spanish educational curriculum is forty percent ahead of er, budget. Ali Addison Wesley was er, one of our stars this year. Er, a fourth year of record profits, record er, sales, record margin, with the schools business thirty seven percent ahead of the previous year with our successful maths programme, aided and abetted by er, the business that produces the manipulatives to go with the maths programme. The college market in the U S A was the weakest for decades, but our college sales were up ten percent. Internationally we're up thirteen percent and in the Europe and, Europe and Pacific twenty percent. And on the er, general book front, the erm, Iron John was on the New York Times best sellers list for fifty one weeks and twelve of those at number one. I'll deal with Penguin separately. Federal and Capital we er, is, is a small business er, but highly profitable and er, it's a subscription business so that the cash comes in advance and er, the er, the only criticism I have of Federal and Capital is that it's, it, it, it, it would be nice if it was five times bigger than it is. But we're working on that. Looking at Penguin er, it was a very difficult year but the profit you see was erm, is after providing for the losses up to the date we disposed of Smith Mark and also making further provision on, on er, leases when we moved out of the other buildings, centralized the editorial and er, administrative functions into one office and, and but for that you would see that the er, the Penguin profit would have moved ahead from the year before. Erm, some of you are very critical of, of, of the Penguin operation when you were in the U S A but I have to tell you, they did achieve record sales there last year and increased market share and in fact the children's er, book publishing was twenty percent ahead of the year before. In the U K the improvement plans we've been working on for the last two years have been very successfully implemented but they've been overtaken by the U K recession. In the U S A we've appointed John President and so we've got the structure that we wanted, with Peter as, as Chairman at the top and concentrating on er, on publishing as he ought to, one of the great publishers of the world, dealing with the authors, dealing with the agents and dealing with the editorial staff. With a Managing Director in U K, Trevor and a Managing Director, President in the U S A, John and er, John had a very good start and we're sure this will be an improved er, stretcher from our business. Turning to, turning to entertainment and media investments er, it was a very tough year for the Tussaud group and starting with the er, Gulf War er, and erm, the only Tussaud business that, that does a lot of business in the first quarter is erm, Marylebone Road and you may remember that the Gulf War caused foreign tourists to stop coming to London and er, also erm, British tourists stopped coming to London and during that time attendances were actually twenty five percent down, so the recovery from there is, has been very good. Our highlight was the opening of Scenerama, our Dutch exhibition which opened in mid year and that's well ahead of budget and by year end we'd had six hundred thousand admissions through the turnstiles. Alton er, did well er, to restrict attendances to a five percent drop. I should remind you, of course, that we have the usual three million black hole Alton this year, the first quarter. At Chessington attendances pretty well stood still, again a very good performance in my view and er, justification for the capital spending that's gone on in recent years to bring that er, to bring Chessington to where we want it to be. Warwick too had a very good performance and er, and maintained its er, attendances. Er, turning to the media investments, well we all tend to think that the er, the bids tended to be on the high side but er, at least Yorkshire got the licence for the next ten years and they have the option in ninety eight to go for a further ten years and I can tell you er, because I've had er, lots of conversations with Clive that they're really working on, on making the best improving their returns from that franchise and I'm quite sure they'll succeed. Pickwick as you know we sold er, during the year, or sorry when the year ended, this year. Turning to er, Camco, our old services campaign, again that er, I think that was a very, very good performance er, sales were ahead of last year, trading profit ahead of last year and they even proved, improved the margin very, very slightly and that's our second star of the year. Erm, Products and Services did very well internationally, in fact the entire business did well internationally, generally, particularly in Venezuela, Nigeria and by year end the er, joint venture in Russia was er, was complete and ready to start. We also did a very important er, technology transfer to Czechoslovakia, which er, unsubmersible pump neck technology and that's tended to, to erm, hide a slight delcl er decline in the last quarter of the year, normally in oil most of the profit or more of the profit comes in the second half than the first, but with the Gulf War last year oil prices were pretty firm and er, so we've made er, quite reasonable profits in the, in the er, first half and so too in the second half, but in the last quarter they've been showed up by that technology er, transfer and the er, U S oil price is er, is, is er stag the U K's is stagnant, the U S is stagnant in oil and the gas prices are very, very far down, they're well down. Turning to investment banking and I should just remind you that er, we take fifty percent of Brothers' profits and ten percent of New York and Paris and given the conditions, given the environment last year, I don't think need be ashamed of the performance er, although in London the only business to really come in, come in with impressive returns was er, asset trading money, broking and banking. There was erm, a great reduction in corporate activity but corporate finance kept very busy er, with their value services and money raising and er, we were responsible for the National Power flotation and the disposal of Gratton. In Paris er,were top of the M & A league but the volume was well down on the record nineteen ninety. New York too did well, advising on thirty seven acquisitions er, thirty seven transactions, including acquisition of Tonka and acquisition of the Max Factor division of Revlon. On fine china erm, although profits were down, Royal Doulton did manage a margin of eight point five percent and here again improved the cash flow on nineteen ninety. And they continued to develop their distribution and retail network and now over half of our sales are overseas and er, we developed our direct mail and our chain store business er, even though demand was down. In fact we made most of our profits or a lot of our profits last year by erm, sheer volume and, and, and a decline in yield. Erm, a bigger sale of the smaller price it of the lesser priced items. I mentioned earlier that we closed the erm, Royal Minton factory and four other factories are on short time, but we continued to invest in operation efficiency to improve our competitive position and er, now over to er, to James . James. Good morning everyone. Well as you can see from what Frank said, the six main sectors overall didn't fare too badly, sixteen percent drop in aggregate at the trading level and in fact er, our other interest less expenses were actually ended on eleven percent because we had a million pounds more profit from Lakeside when we sold the Tesco's site. However, the damage was done at the discontinued line which simply reflects the fact that we had er, Elserver in for two and a half months in nineteen ninety one, as opposed to twelve months the year before. So trading profits down twenty four percent and although the interest charge was down er, quite sharply, largely, of course, as a reduction in net depth through the Elserver sale, profits before tax ended up as you heard before, twenty three percent lower. If we go from that to the earnings, there's another erm, er, slide to take us through that. I think the most interesting point here is the tax charge which is two percentage points down on the year before and that really is prior year adjustments, there are other pluses and minuses but that's a significant reason. Extraordinary profits, you may be surprised to see are only twelve point nine million after the Elserver sale but that is a function of the write back of good will on the disposal of Elserver which you will see explained in the preliminary statement, thus reducing the er, profit from two hundred and twenty nine million, which was the estimate at the interim, to thirty five million for the year as a whole. We did that in the with the erm, urgent issues task force new standard on good will. We had to do it cos I'm a member of the task force. I mean I'd be sacked otherwise. So, earnings after extraordinaries up fifty four percent er, even so. Now, the profits, the profits you've seen where the profits came down, let's look at it another way and that is really to see er, the impact per the year before. Fifty three million down in profits overall. Foreign exchange worked to our advantage this year, the dollar was at one seventy two on average. Er, we had, obviously, no help from acquisitions because of the Elserver effect less interest. Our exceptional items were rather heavier in nineteen ninety one, you won't be surprised after what you heard from Frank about the er, number reductions. We had redundancy cost, we had lease provision and one or two other items. So, the underlying performance, in fact, accounted for only forty million out of the fifty three million reduction in profits. Now, again, we need to distribute the underlying performance because it wasn't equally distributed between the various sectors. Now, clearly the two major er, baddies there were the newspapers and investment banking and that reflects their operational gearing and the sharp decline in revenue you are well aware of. The two pluses are books, thanks largely to Addison Wesley, thankfully decisively so and the oil services business and the only other item worth reflecting, I think worth er, remarking on, is in fact that if you take out the black hole effect er, the entertainment fall was only two million and I think that is a creditable performance. So, if we now leave profits and go to cash. Er, the cash flow is slightly crowded and to we've split it into two slides. You can see er, at the top, of course the profits were down but nonetheless er, I think quite encouragingly, we have higher operational cash flow and I'll go into a little detail of that later. Er, a sharp fall in the interest, tax and dividends line led to the forty five million turnround at what we regard the crucial measure, net funds from operation. This tells you whether you're generating money for shareholders or where they consume you. If we look at the next slide, you'll then see er, the change from net funds from operations, plus eighteen million, down to the various large reduction in borrowings, you're already aware of and, of course, the erm, disposals less acquisitions as it should read for ninety one er, stands out there. We spent only really modest amounts, apart from there was a small further investment in B Sky B, nothing else worth recording. So, turnround in a net debt of three hundred and twenty million and I think we will look again now at the net funds from operation and look at the analysis a little further. Trading profit less potential was only down twenty five million because, of course, a good slice of the reduction in trading profits came from er, associates, mainly Elserver which is rather niggly in distributions. The working capital outflow was controlled and was only er, sixteen million more working capital, which is considerably better than the year before and then finally you had the er, improvement in the capital expenditure. Capital expenditure less depreciation is eighteen million better, that's of course a function of two er, elements. The reduction in the and the persistent rise the depreciation charge, which is going over the last four years as we maintain a high level of capital spending. Improvement in operating cash flow was then compounded by er, the financing line and that really is overwhelmingly er, a reduction in tax paid, function of the lower profits than previous years and of course, the impact of consortium relief in B Sky B. Net change, forty five million pounds and that we regard as one of the most satisfying outcomes for the year. Now Elserver also impacted, of course, materially on the balance sheet as the next slide will show us. Curiously, net trading assets are virtually unchanged between the two years. This is obviously a coincidence, since it's a function of so many different things including exchange effects. However, the balance between debt and equity is remarkably changed. You'll have the sharp improvement in shareholders' funds resulting from the write back of good will on the Elserver disposal and the consequent reduction in net borrowings, from four hundred and five to a hundred and eighteen million. Now, net debt of the hundred and eighteen million is of course, er, a balance of two items. We have our debt itself, the gross debt, which came down about a hundred and twenty million and that is all set by a substantially increased cash balance. The cash is overwhelmingly held in sterling. We need a hundred million of it to er, pay back Coupon Bond that matures in May and by the same reason, the final column shows that the balance of our debt between fixed and floating er, will change, other things being equal on the pro-forma basis. At the moment or at the year end of our variable debt, commercial paper in the United States, a very cheap form of debt, formed the overwhelming proportion. Our fixed debt is accounted for by our quoted sterling bonds and er, the balance of a medium tone note programme which we have outstanding in the United States. On the pro-forma basis, our hopes, which of course not yet been born out, that interest rates will be declining er, will give us some advantage by the year end, as a number of caps and swabs which we put in place during nineteen ninety one, unwind. Now, balance sheet with the lower debt and promising cash flow, of course, impacts on financial ratios and I think that this is the best measure of how we come through nineteen ninety one rather than the profits. The dividend cover is not wonderful but it's perfectly adequaly adequate as Michael said at the beginning. Interest cover was already strong and is now at nearly ten times patently er, a very healthy level and whether or not you add back the good will on other er, acquisitions, I dare say the ratio is at a very low level indeed. Clearly, we have plenty of powder and it's dry. Thank you. Er, we are going to be joined er, for questions by David , who is er, the Chairman of Camco and the u the Pearson Executive Director, resident in the U S. Michael , who is er, C E O group and Hugh who is C E O of Westminster press er, financial newspapers. When you er, ask a question first time could you, could you say your name and the organization that you represent. Could I have the first question please? It's Mark from the Daily Telegraph. Can I just ask you if your position on the Daily Mirror is still that you're not at all interested in it, or is there a prospect that you may change your mind when you've seen the figures from the Mirror? Er, we had a good look at, at the figures, although they weren't totally finalized we had a pretty good understanding of the situation and I think it is highly unlikely that we would er, seek to re-open any negotiations. Er, Jason from the Independent. Just a supplementary on that. This er, your comment that you had a good look at the figures, severely confused the merchant bankers who are advising the Mirror group as they, they didn't feel that they'd finalized the figures themselves. So, did you have a, a mole inside the Mirror Group? Er, James would you like to answer that question? Well, I'm not a mole. No, I think that we had a fairly clear idea, certainly on the pension fund, we've not obviously got accurate numbers, a clear idea of the broad er, shape of, of the problems and erm, that allowed us, without having to wait for very accurate figures, to draw the conclusions about the scale of the problem, the amount of investment we'd like to, we need to make and thus erm, whether or not it was of interest to pursue. You didn't need to have a, a long form report in front of you I think, to draw the conclusion. Er, Richard from the Scotsman. Can I just ask you to be slightly more specific on your first answer. Does that mean you're not actually interested in any parts of the Mirror Group? I refer particularly also to the, the Daily Record and the Sunday Mail in Scotland. Er, I'll be more, I'll be clearer. Er, we are not interested in any parts of the Mirror Group. Er, Raymond , Financial Times. Companies with as strong a balance sheet as yours have been known to seek acquisitions er, in the midst of a very deep recession. Why have you not done so? Er, there are a couple of factors there. One is that we do make acquisitions, we on, on the whole er, prefer er, organic growth because it is normally more profitable and the prices you have to pay for acquisitions er, tend to put significant premiums on the companies you buy which you may er, in the longer run eventually erm, er, turn into shareholder value. But er, any acquisition has to fit extremely well strategically and it has to be at a price that we consider to be a, a, a good price. Now, so far er, the acquisitions that have come onto the market haven't really reflected er, the trading conditions in which all companies in this country have been operating for the last eighteen months. In oth other words, there haven't been particularly good value acquisitions that are strategically suitable for us. It doesn't mean to say that we are not on the, alert and on the look out and er, I think those opportunities erm, er, will still occur and that er, we will be involved. Now, there's one other element that's worth mentioning. Erm, it is perhaps only in the last er, six months or so that the erm, turnaround in the fortunes of erm, er, B Sky B have been acknowledged and er, I think there has been an element in our thinking that we wanted to keep our dry er, until such time as er, B Sky B which we have great belief and faith in and our, as you know we increased our investment during the year erm, sees its way through to profitability and I'm happy to say that that's happening now at a reab reasonable rate and that that means that it is highly unlikely that the hundred and thirty million of guarantees that we still have outstanding to B Sky B are likely to be called. So, we're in a pretty strong position to make acquisitions if they appear at the right price and they fit our strategic framework. Sorry, that was rather a long answer. Yes Sir? William , Daily Mail. Erm, you, a lot of people now talk as though it's erm, plain sailing or flying for B Sky B and it's gonna be er, hunky-dory, whereas Anglia Television have just written their stake down to a prenominal amount because they don't think it's gonna make, stand a chance of making a profit before the turn of the millennium. Do you think they're being too gloomy and do you think certain other people are being too euphoric? I think that the reasons people have written down their erm, er, holdings in B, B Sky B have varied. Er, sometimes it's for tax reasons, sometimes it's for er, for, for, for erm, er, reasons such as last year when er, we wrote down our, our stake by some seventy one million erm, it was because at that point the financing for B Sky B was not yet er, at all clear because the shareholders had been unable to agree at that point erm, that they would guarantee the two hundred or so million that er, needed to go in before the er, project became successful and so there was a genuine doubt on the financing. Er, I don't know if James again, you might like to comment. We'll keep Frank in reserve, he's a Chairman at B Sky B. Er, I think er, Frank will correct me if we're closer to the, to the sharp edge than Anglia, who have got a very small stake and only in the equity of B S B H, are coming very low in the pecking order to get their money, whereas er, where there is a whole complex er, schedule of who will participate in the er, substantial cash flow that we expect to emanate from B Sky B in due course, but I think that's the main reason why Anglia, I haven't talked to David . Frank, do you talk? Well, I mean it's, it's definitely tax driven. I mean erm, Anglia talked er, talked to me anyway as Chairman of B Sky B erm, before they, before they did the write off and it's, it's just tax driven. So you're right at the head of the pecking order? Pardon? You're right at the head of the pecking order, when the cash generation starts you'll be first in line? Er, we will, but the pecking order er, the pecking order is the subject of agreement and it's public. Er, but I mean clearly the, the debt and the guarantees are paid down first and so for the reason we are high up in the pecking order, because we provided the er, the loans and the guarantees. Yes? Following that up when, when can your long suffering shareholders er, expect to see any return on the B Sky B stake and a follow up on that? Now, you've got sixteen percent and you're the Chairman when shouldn't you equity account it? Well, I'm not certain our shareholders are long suffering. Erm, in fact I think the turnaround has er, has been remarkably quick and remember, we saved our shareholders from having to write the lot off. So I wouldn't accept your description justified. Mick. Mm. Take issue beyond that. Sorry, what was the second part of the question? Well, the first part of the question was when, when will they start seeing a return back on that money and secondly, when shouldn't you equity account it? Well, er, equity accounting, James is better placed to answer that question than me. Erm, I'd be very surprised if, if cash, if, if B Sky B doesn't start to trade at a profit overall in erm, in the second half of ninety three. And, and thereafter cash can flow out because the first thing that flows out are loans and guarantees. So we're, we're quite close to getting cash back from B Sky B. Sorry, can I get it absolutely clear. I didn't fully understand that. Are you actually saying er, money will actually be raised in addition to the financing charges in the second half of ninety three? No, no, I'm talking about profit from the, from the business. Money from the business. Just to clear another point up. Last autumn it was stated in a document that there would have to be further subscriptions of finance before er, the project became profitable. Are you now saying that's no longer necessary? That is the two hundred million that I was referring to er, earlier, wasn't in place at the time that we made our write there. So, that was all the remark applied to? Well yes, but that, remember we provided for up to two hundred million which we thought would see us through to the end of ninety two. Now it looks as if not all of that will be called, but we can't be sure at this stage. But it looks as if it may not all be called. Should I just comment on the assessing the equity accounting point. Er, the present situation is that there's complex erm, arrangements for the exercise of votes, basically unanimity is required and in those circumstances we as a shareholder cannot exercise material influence which is a necessary pre-condition for equity accounting. Ourselves. Roger from the Guardian. Erm, can we, er, two separate questions. One is going back to the issue of acquisitions erm, where are you most interested, both geographically and er, as far as your operation is concerned, where are you most interested in making acquisitions? Er, and a completely separate question now, entertainment er, could you just tell us a bit more about what's happening at Alton Towers and also how you think it's gonna be affected by EuroDisney? Yes er, well I think we might, I'll answer the second question but we'll, we'll, we'll answer the first question but we'll ask Michael, who's right here to, to comment on entertainment. In fact today, this afternoon we're launching a whole new area at Alton Towers which is additional to anything before erm, Frank referred to it briefly, there's a Runaway, so called Runaway Train ride, there's a Ghost House and that's all part of a new complex, which we've got longer term plans to expand further. Er, that's costing something up to ten million pounds approximately. So, we have erm, underlying confidence in the long term future of Alton Towers, I think that's very important to state. As far as EuroDisney is concerned, I personally welcome its establishment in France. I think that it is going to have a good effect on improving trading for the better parks and attractions in this country and as you know I think, Alton Towers is the leading er, park of its kind in this country, Chessington which we also own is the second er, leading park, one and a half million visitors a year, Alton Towers approximately two million visitors a year in this country. Both offering excellent value for money. The point I think that has to be understood about EuroDisney, which perhaps hasn't been properly perceived yet by the public is that it is very much a destination for the British public. It is not a place you can just go to for the day and therefore you need to spend at least a couple of days getting there overnight, coming back again and er, for a family of four I calculate that even taking one's own car across the Channel, the average cost for a family of four, is of the order of five or six hundred pounds. I don't see how you can do it cheaper for that. Don't forget to get into Disney is twenty five pounds, which is more than double what we're charging at Alton Towers for example. Er, the comparable cost for a family of four in this country to go to somewhere like Alton Towers or to Chessington in your own car including the cost of petrol of getting there is of the order of fifty or sixty pounds at the outside. In other words, only ten percent of the total costs of going to Disney. Therefore, the one is a destination which you'll probably find you'd prefer to go to for a long weekend or perhaps a, part of your annual holiday etcetera, our parks are places you go to for a day out and I think therefore there is a very er, strong difference between the sort of visit and because I feel that EuroDisney which will undoubtedly will be good, it's a proven formula er, it's run well er, it appeals to a lot of people and therefore it will be I think er, successful, exactly how successful I obviously can't say, but it will be successful, it will certainly attract British visitors, but they'll come back, looking er, with certain higher expectation, a value for money, quality etcetera, etcetera. And we believe we already offer that, I think the figures indicate that and therefore in the medium and the longer term I believe that our attractions will undoubtedly benefit and I would finally say that if you er, go back and look at the history of Disney in America, after the establishment of Disney Parks in America there was a big improvement in extension of the amusement parks in the rest of America which er, the traditional theme parks, so called, in America grew in the period after the establishment of Disney Land in California and I think a similar sort of thing is going to happen, not perhaps just in this country er, but also in Europe generally. In certain locations there are clearly planning problems, environmental problems that sort of thing, in establishing parks but I believe er, and I know a lot other people in the leisure business believe that there will be a growth. But the ones that'll gain will be the quality ones offering the best value for money and as you know, Pearson believes in quality and certainly value for money and therefore I believe we will benefit from that. Thank you Michael. On, on acquisitions, well running through the group, the best of banking er, er strategies to remain non capital intensive and strongly cash generative er, know, you know we've had a twenty million investment erm, A & A er, a Swiss er, house, we're extending our networks. We're not, er we're not the best thing about money and I wouldn't see that happening in the future. On fine china, we're already the largest fine china, fine bone china manufacturer in the world. We might make the odd selective acquisition but not vast amounts of money going on acquisitions there either. In oil services, in the future there could be further major acquisitions but er, over the past three years we've er, undertaken a whole series of acquisitions and er, and for the moment I wouldn't see anything er, in the, in the major line there, although you never know if some, even sometimes opportunities you aren't capable of creating erm, er, because the er, situation is not right er, do occur and I wouldn't rule it out but erm, er, we haven't erm any major acquisition er, on, on, on the carpet there at the moment. Erm, on entertainment, we're spending a lot of money on organic growth and have done over the past two or three years and er, it's very well spent but again, we're growing our businesses, erm, er, rather than acquiring them. Alton Towers clearly is an exception but again, you have to pay a lot of money for it and it takes quite some time to get the return er, back and, and I would say that erm, many of Michael's erm, er, organic erm, er, expenditure will, will erm, provide er, a really good return rather quicker but in the long run we think Alton is good. Erm, now that leaves us with er, really the er, the publishing, the educational publishing er, the newspapers, magazines, electronic publishing, in all those areas we're active and on the lookout. We certainly, if you look at the breakdown of our sales er, we only sell about a hundred and fifty er, million pounds worth er, of goods and services in Asia, Pacific erm, we would certainly like to make acquisitions in that area just as we did in North America er, in the seventies and eighties and we have now small Pearson er, office, for instance in Tokyo, it's quite slow,erm, er, in that area but certainly we're on the lookout for acquisitions in, in Asia, Pacific. In all of those publishing areas that you've mentioned, newspapers, books, electronic Yes? Karen from News Australia. Would that include taking a stake in the er, the Fairfax float when erm, that takes place later this year? Erm, we, we, we really er, like to be in a position of control in any of the acquisitions er, that we make er, where we are associates rather than, than having a hundred percent or a least erm, over fifty. It is because for strategic reasons we've very want to make the investment, there's no other way of doing it. Erm, to cut a long story short, if a attractive Fairfax erm, individual enterprise came up, we would be far more interested than taking a stake that was a, just an investment. Er, the chances of it coming up seem to me highly unlikely. Clearly, if it did we'd be interested. Is your cost er, programme effectively complete er, or are we gonna be seeing more substantial redundancies this year? Well, we've got our cost reductions as an ongoing process er, so it's never complete, you're always looking for ways to, to become more efficient or effective but I don't anticipate any redundancies er, any further redundancies but obviously if, if, if systems become available which improve our efficiency and effectiveness we, we have to take account of it. What effect would a Labour government have on, in the U K, on Pearson's businesses? Well, there's been quite a lot of, of, of chat recently that, that erm, because of cross-media ownership erm, companies that are involved in cross-media ownership would have, have problems. I think that it is difficult to see under any clear complexion of government that our present holdings er, in newspapers, which are mainly the Financial Times which has a small erm, comparatively small circulation for a national newspaper and less than twenty percent in a television company would, would be affected by, by any government. Er, whether they, a different government would legislate erm, against people having more than a twenty percent stake in er, B Sky B for instance remains to be seen. It must be quite possible, which might mean that there will be some more shares er, available there but er, that is complete speculation. Erm, I don't think that er, in structural terms therefore a, a change of government would er, make a great deal, a difference, then you come to er, the general effect of a, a change of government er, I think at the moment we're living in a situation of uncertainty and er, a clear majority erm, for any party would probably from a business point of view erm, remove the uncertain short term. I think the view you take of the longer term, erm, er, becomes individual and speculative er, as once again you've got to erm, er, come to conclusions about inflation, about encouragement to the economy and er, you can read in many a good newspaper erm, their views on that. Thanks er, did the provision for er, properties like Penguin and four and a half million for the year, did all of that come in the second half, because it's noticeable that Penguin is ahead something like what, thirty two percent, second half on second half. So if that four and a half million was all incurred in the second half its underlying growth rate was something like sixty percent. Er, were there any sort of distortions there in the second half period? Well, Penguin always makes er, er, most of its profits in the second half but, but James would you like to answer. It's more in the second half. My colleague Mr who is closer to the ground reminds me that I think there was a small provision in the first half. But we then took a view about, about future years because in a sense we've always been, obviously had to provide for the er, year impression. Discretion now taking a much more realistic view about the New York property market which is, office market which is as lousy if not lousier than erm, than London and say that we ain't gonna relet these, we're not gonna sub-let these properties, let's take, let's take a hit, let's clean it out now. And that was, that element was in the second half. Sorry, would there be any exceptional stock provisions that were released, made in the first half, released into the second half for example? So you talked about Penguin? Yes, cos you talked about No, don't make no, no, no. That wouldn't be the case, no. Are you er, going to have an extraordinary profit from the sale of the stake in Pickwick? Small loss. Small loss. Er, Hugh, would you, you haven't had a chance to say anything. Would you like to er, make any comments on er, how a change of government might effect the Westminster Press? Well, I think it erm, very, I mean I think as you said Chairman, if erm, there's a clear majority for one party it'll unblock a whole lot of delay and decision making which I think is going on and I think that that should be helpful. I suppose the only problem is if there's er, gonna be another general election shortly after the one we're about to have, that'll just er, create a bit more uncertainty for a bit longer I'm afraid. Er right. Robert of Robert Fleming. I noticed one of the, the Sunday papers had a little bit of a dig on you on strategy over the weekend. Perhaps er, you'd just like to remind us erm, what your strategy is and no doubt how unfair you felt that comment was? Well, our strategy is to be a concentrated conglomerate. In other words, sticking to those sectors that we know and understand and which we chose for the nineties because we believe they had good growth prospects. Er, we built on those sectors, during the er, past year with the initial uncertainty on the B Sky B situation er, we have been managing erm, our way through the recession, you've heard from Frank er, about the er, immediate short term measures we've taken. Er, but in the long run we're on the lookout to continue to build both organically and by acquisition where appropriate er, on, on the main sectors. And you've all heard the theme of quality which, which runs throughout our strategic picking. Sorry, Eric er, there was something put up there, beyond your at first. Yes,, James . Erm, James put a slide up about accept included a figure of erm, eight million for exceptionals. I wonder if you could just explain the consistent parts of that figure? The eight million on exceptionals, James would you? That, that is the, the change in exceptionals compared with nineteen ninety. It isn't the total charge. And it comprises er, redundancy provisions er, costs on abortive er, acquisitions or erm, consulting projects er, lease provisions in Penguin and other odds and sods bluntly. I think we're talking at cross purposes. I think the slide that Frank was referring to was the total charge for the year. The eight million is the difference in the exceptional charge for ninety one compared with nineteen ninety. That was a various analysis. Er, Eric. Can I . You indicated that there's no sign of any er, improvement in your main markets er, but looking for er, optimistic er, calculations could you give us any indications of the er, the benefits of the er, non recurrence of the Gulf War in the first half? Well, the non recurrence of Gulf War in the first half is pretty well balanced by the recession that is taking place at the moment and is er, showing as we all know, little signs of lifting. I think a change in the political, direct and when say it, I don't mean a change, I mean a, erm, the outcome of the solution erm, to, to, to the present uncertainty, I think er, will be greatly helpful er, once the election is over in the U K. Er, but it is, it's very, it's very early days er, as we all know. You showed us a slide with net savings for nineteen ninety two of twenty million. Can you actually just take us through those er on one of you slides you had a thing, net savings Er the net savings on redundancies of twenty million pounds? Are they only redundancies or is it just a net saving? Oh, the net savings altogether. Frank will now take us through the, the net savings of twenty million on redundancies. You've done it once. Yeah. Well, the twenty million obviously just comes er, in prop well not in proportion because the salary levels differ but in proportion to the numbers er, made redundant in the individual companies. It's quite difficult to, to get at erm, the other, all the other costs because they're a myriad of tiny things. I mean the big ones erm, obviously are the erm, savings of the U S A on telecommunications and freight er, but then there's lots and lots of things, for instance, the one I mentioned at Minton, two hundred and fifty thousand and so in all of our businesses, you know those, many, many small items. Is this a combination of the impact of the redundancies plus all these other , not just redundancies? Yes. Can I pick up on your comment, you do not see any upturn in any of your major markets. Advertising revenue seems to be, there seems to be sometimes that there is some slight pick up, the advertising associations predicting a pick up there, one or two companies who have been reporting, have been talking about a little upturn in the first quarter of this year. Did, you don't see any. Does that mean that they are wrong, or you're losing market share? Er, it doesn't mean that we're wrong, there are some categories of advertising er, that are showing slight signs and others that are not. Er, Frank would you like to comment? I'd, actually I think the problem is that you get the odd week er, and even the odd month, where things look better erm, but, but overall, then it slips again and er, overall erm, the end of February, there's no sign that, that volume is increasing from the previous year. Erm, and that's in the F T and that's in W P and the odd category will move. And, I talked to other publishers erm, including a very large one which will be nameless and they have a pretty good spread and their experience was the same as ours. So erm, I don't think there's any signs of advertising here. And on the, on the, on the television front again erm, there isn't a great deal on the television front and there's quite a bit of manipulation going on but erm, there isn't a great deal, deal of upturn. B Sky B is ahead of last year but I mean that's a growing business, you would expect it to be. No, no, advertising is, is still down. It's still, it's been, in the first two months it's been going down on last year in volume terms. We have Hugh here er, Hugh, any sign of us losing market share? No sign of our newspapers losing market share, no. I think the, I mean the, the huge drop that we had in situations vacant advertising in ninety, nineteen ninety one, when we fell from, I mean our job advertising was about twenty million pounds in nineteen ninety and was down to about eleven million in ninety one. But erm, the position at the moment is that, I mean, the situation doesn't seem to be getting any worse. Erm, and there are, there are some signs of erm, odd categories of advertising being slightly up but they are need to be counter balanced by others which are down too. It's really very hard to detect any trend. Your share price seemed to take a bit of a knock the other day when Roy made some comments about referring media conglomerates to the Monopolies and Mergers Commission. Firstly, would you see any problem with that under a led government directly and secondly if Rupert were forced to sell off either some of his stake in B Sky B or some of his newspaper interests er, what would be your attitude to er, buying? Er, I don't think that er, we would be likely to have a, a problem in selling down. We only have sixteen percent of B Sky B and we have one national newspaper, the Financial Times, which, although influential, is relatively small circulation. I don't see erm, a government of any complexion being likely to insist er, on our going down er, below twenty percent er, in television. So, I don't, I don't personally see that as a direct threat at all and I think that also our, our er, our newspapers don't have any particular political bias of any sort, I think they treat each issue on its merits. So, I don't see from Pearson's point of view that, that a government of any complexion will alter what we can and er, or can't do in relation to our current er, holdings. Er, if any shareholder in B Sky B er, was selling shares, we would obviously consider er, whether we went up from our present sixteen percent er, to twenty percent but it would depend on the circumstances at the time. Derek . Could you comment briefly on Addison Wesley and the pattern of the, the major programmes in that business and er, what the outlook is for the current year. The pattern of trading at Addison Wesley and, and the prospects for the current year er, Frank. Well, the prospects for the er, current year are still good. Erm, I mean I really can't, I don't expect them to surge ahead as they did last year but all the signs are that, that, they're doing very well and er, it's a very well managed business erm, great cost control er, I don't know whether you noticed recently that Meryl des described the erm, the management of erm, of A W as the er, I think it was the creme de la creme of the Class act of the industry. class act of the industry. So it's a very well managed business. The pattern is very much first half er, erm, loss or small profit, second half all the profit and in fact you should watch out for the bigger, the bigger Addison Wesley gets, the more the loss in the second half will be because we're investing for that sale In the first half. in the first half. They're investing in the first half in that second half. So, the chances are it will exaggerate more than anything else. Er, and we have a very strong college front list er, which we would hope would er, would make a contribution again this year, more of a contribution. Er, David , resident in America. Would you like to make any general comments on the U S? On the U S as a whole or on Well, in relation perhaps to, to Addison Wesley. Well, I think that the erm, the, as Frank has said, they, they have a strong college list for this year, the school business should be they can't repeat the maths programme success of last year although there is follow up business in other states. So, there's strong underpinnings with what they've got and they are in the right areas of the market. Erm, could I ask er, a little about er, Longman and er, and er, Penguin in nineteen ninety two and particularly in the case of Longman, is the momentum of profits improvement in the second half carrying, carrying through into nineteen ninety two? Longman and Penguin in, in ninety two. Er, what, what do we say about that? Longman have made a very good start to the year and erm, and so they've progressed from day one, making last year I expect to continue. Erm, and Penguin U S again have er, made a good start and the one area, David can talk about this better than I, but the one area that er, where there is an upturning in business activity and mo promise have come into the U S A. So, you know, we expect erm, Penguin and A W er, Penguin U S certainly to go on and Longman to carry on as they are, improving. David, do you want to say anything about the U S? No, I think erm, in the, certainly in the consumer area which affects both Penguin and to some extent Royal Doulton, there are definite signs now of the U S economy turning around and that is likely to continue as, as the year goes on. And certainly, trade book publishing did not do at all badly in nineteen ninety one in a recessionary environment and erm, there are, as Frank has mentioned particularly within Penguin, quite a lot of internal restructuring has gone on and one would hope that margins would improve over the next few years as a result of that. While we're on the U S, could you say on the oil services er, how much of the er, good performances do you pumps turning round and again what are the prospects of that division for the current year? Well erm, can everybody hear the questions or is it bet helpful to repeat? It is helpful to repeat. Er,to what extent er, was the er, was the performance of, of Camco erm, er dependent on a good performance from ? Well, I'd like to qualify your question if I may put words into your mouth. I think in fact er, had been doing quite well and the specific point that Frank was referring to was erm, the technology transfer that they did with a mar large chip manufacturer, which probably made a contribution in the second half, a net contribution of about five million dollars and that offset some of the weakness in, in other parts of Camco's business in the last quarter of the year. And that er, technology transfer covers submersible pump technology which will be the standard pump line and the Czechs will have a non exclusive erm,li er licence to sell it in the Soviet Union which is a prime market er, and in other areas behind the old iron curtain. And that's an arrangement which will be carrying on over the next few years. Could you tell us please, how much we spent on Ghost House and Runaway Train and what you expect it to bring in, in rewards this year? How much we spent on Ghost House and Runaway Train er, and how much er, profit we'll bring in this year. Er, Michael . The erm, total figure will end up, it isn't all completely spent yet, but it'll end up er, something between eight and ten million pounds. It's impossible to judge exactly how many people will come in as a result of that and er, how much expenditure will be incurred because as you know we're in a recessionary period and as you've already heard there is concern about current trading, but I would hope that it would bring in er, something like a hundred and fifty thousand extra people, certainly in a good year I'd expect more than that but really that's about as much as I'm prepared to say with some additional spending which will be incurred at Alton Towers. But obviously in a recessionary period, which we are certainly not out of yet, you have to remember that Alton Towers has a per cap of something like fourteen pounds a head at the moment, er, average of all people. And therefore in a recessionary period when pressure is on people spending er, that sort of figure is under tremendous pressure. Erm, a comment on B Sky B and contribution. I mean, will there be any contribution by way of guar loan guarantees over the forecast, over the next two forecast years or, I mean my understanding was that there was a guarantee fee that, that erm, was still owed this year. B Sky B and its contribution erm, to Pearson. Frank. Well, I mean, we don't, we don't intend to equity account B Sky B for the present time anyway. Er, obviously the guarantee fees are a contractual obligation of B Sky B and er, so we er, we, Pearson are entitled to those and I mean, obviously as, as B Sky B becomes cash generative and erm, then cash will flow into Pearson and I th you know the schedule erm, and in that, in that way. James, would you James just said that we haven't taken any guarantee fees into this year's profit er, nor any interest on, on loan stocks. That's something that we obviously would consider next, this time next year in the light of, of the performance and prospects and clearly on advice from, from those on the board. But, but as the business continues to do, do better, as they're already doing rather well er, that becomes an issue. Two completely different questions. Can you just tell us what you've done to your entrance pricing for your various entertainment centres and also can you tell us why the Canadian profit's almost doubled in the year? I couldn't hear the second question myself. Your erm, on your allocation of geographical profits er, Canada's profits have almost doubled in the year. Two totally separate questions, the first relating to entrance pricing at our entertainment businesses and we'll deal with that first. Michael. The erm, entrance price increases generally have been in line or slightly above inflation. We normally aim and have achieved very successfully in recent years real price increases above inflation. Last year, you'll remember, we had to absorb, in fact in the Tussauds group, about three quarters of a million er, pounds on the increase in V A T and that was a blow to us at the beginning of the season, you remember it was the budget more or less this time last year. Er, this year hopefully er, with pressure, again as I said earlier but nevertheless we are hoping and having er, put in our new price increases for the season which is more or less beginning now. I hope everybody understands er, Alton Towers is launching its new things today, Chessington opened this weekend, so we haven't been trading until this weekend in effect in our parks business. London, of course, and our Amsterdam exhibition has been trading since the beginning of the year and the price increase is generally coming at the beginning of the season, which is more or less now for the parks, earlier for the exhibitions. And the separate question related to trading profits erm, in Canada. Why have they gone from eight million to fifteen million. Er, James. The er, combination of things. First of all, during the course of the year our holding in the Canadian Financial Post reduced, therefore we took in less losses from that business. Secondly, Penguin Canada returned the profits. Thirdly, both Camco and Addison Wesley had very good years in that territory. Further questions? Sorry, can I ask another one? Er, on your erm, West Thurrock er, receipt and profits, I think this is the last er, the last year erm, can you give us an indication of er, thought that you might have of filling the hole er, in nineteen ninety three when you cease to ? Er, the major contribution from one transaction in relation to West Thurrock er, which will be coming to an end er, James would you like to comment on that? Well, you're absolutely right, Eric, it does come to an end. Er, to what extent the rift er, filled, I don't think it can be wholly filled as a function of the recovery in er, the market for land. You know we have a considerable holding of er, land immediately adjacent to the reasonable shopping centre there and erm, if and when things become buoyant again and I went down there a couple of weeks and I was rather impressed by, by the look of the area, then clearly land prices go up and we have the capacity to, to generate more profit. But, I think it would be illusory to think that we can maintain our profits from land in ninety three at the same level as it had been for ninety one and two. That was the final question. Well, yes we have a final question. Tony from . You say if, if all your loans to B Sky B were performing and you consolidated them erm, what your income would be? If we consolidated? If you, if all your loans to B Sky B were performing and you took credit for them what, what would the contribution be? Ah. Er, James. You mean, if we took the interest from Guarantee fees? Yeah. You got an answer for that? A useful few million. An exciting shot. It's like all good things to come, I don't like to count my chickens, so I'd rather not, not the little memorandums say, oh you've got another X million, if only we could take them in this year. Any of my colleagues have a number in their mind? . Fifteen. Thanks Charles. Er, we have another question. What criteria, I mean, will you use to determine whether or not you actually erm, take those into account in determining nineteen ninety two's figures? Whether and when they're gonna be paid. String that to whether, James. When James, not whether. Well, I regard the answer to whether as academic. So, on happy, on that happy note could we go next door and have some coffee. Good idea really. Yeah. Even though you can't tell any difference after they've finished. Yeah. I see well it's convenient that it comes at the end of a week's holiday isn't it? Pardon? It means they all get an extra couple of days off on their holiday doesn't it? No we do don't You do. Do you think they're all there then or are they all in at school? Pardon? Do you think they're all in at school? No No. They're skiving. They're all skiving are they they're all wagging off Lesley. Well enjoy your tomorrow when you go back. Where do we need for a Kids' County where are we after? Pardon? Where are we after the Kids' County you know what you rang up for in the first place? Sorry talking to me and I'm totally Dennis McCarthy. No it's not. Who who's there heckling Lesley? Er Philip and Andy. Philip which one's your boyfriend then? . Philip? No. Andy? An Angie. Oh Angie. Yes. Oh I see I thought you said Andy there. Anyway bye Lesley it's nice to speak I'm a Radio Virgin by the way. Oh are you well I'll give you a a, I lost it at lunchtime ex-Radio Virgin certificate for being a first time on and er I'd like to say it's been a pleasure. All right thanks. Bye bye. Er Sue from Bulwell hello Sue. Hello Geoff. How are you? Fine thanks. You've not been on for a while have you? Where have you been? Well been here there and everywhere . Ha have you? I came in to see you but you weren't in so. When was that when did you come in? Er about a fortnight ago. Was it? I'll be here I'm always here. Well you wasn't. I would have been somewhere. You're skiving like the teachers. No no one could skive like they do. I mean what a good idea you have a week off away from all the kids and then you have another couple days and call them training days. yeah my two have them at school as well. Have they? Isn't it a good idea though? And then they have all those big long summer holidays and then they moan about the marking. Oh I know but saying that I think my kiddies' school's all right so I've got Is it? so I've got no grievances about it. I'm only doing it to wind him up. I know That's all I'm only doing it to wind them up you see there. I wonder if they get an extra allowance for red pens? Although they're not meant to do it in red any more are they? No it's black and blu black and blue. Black and blue I see and and anything exciting going off Sue to report? Ooh I got sloshed on Friday. Did you? Hey do you care about you know the other day we were talking about the erm I wanted to get one of the councillors on to talk about this but I I can't find the right one. But you know the other day we were talking about that tulip thing that's down by erm Marks and Sparks? Yes. In t you know that statue thing? Yes that thing that trickles out a bit of water. That's there yeah the dribbly You know upturned dribbly nose that one. Yes. Erm they were talking about moving it and everything there was a big fuss about it last week well now there's a fuss about they want to pull all the trees down around it as well. No I think if I had the choice I'd move the tulip and leave the trees. Well I would you know. They want to rip all the trees down as well they want to make it a little piazza thing don't they? Oh well why don't they just bring down as well you know might as well. If they're going to do it proper do it all. With a bit of extra mozzarella on the top love. Yes. Erm Kids' County anyway who are we talking about Sue? Totally wrong I said D H Lawrence . No you nana No it's it's not Sue but it was a lovely thought wasn't it? Totally wrong I knew it was afterwards I'd said oh well. Never mind though good bye. See you bye. Give us a ring Sue. Er it's not Kenneth Clarke and it's not Brian Clough and it's not Dennis McCarthy and it's not D H Lawrence. Here's the clues who were they talking about? He's famous he's got a wife he's normally on the news he's posh and he dresses up smart he writes he writes papers out. There who are they on about three four three four three four to call it's er a very public figure very public you're bound to have heard of him you've probably seen him as well I would have thought I would have thought so as some stage picture always in the paper there as well you know nice big swanky car too. Three four three four three four to call for a bash at Kids' County. It's not Kenneth Clarke Brian Clough it's not Dennis McCarthy and it's not D H Lawrence either. There Mister Mister and er Broken Wings June from Mansfield is our Loot at Lunchtime champ hello June. Hello. Are you all right? Yes thank you are you ? Has it changed your life being a champ? Oh yes. Has it well what what's happened then? Ooh erm I I'm cooking dinner today. Are you? Yes. Who who's heckling there who's chiming up? That's Rob. Is it? Yes. Rob the gob. I don't think so no. Look Sharon from Grantham is taking you on today. Mhm. Now be kind to her because it must be awful living in Grantham hello Sharon. Hello. You all right? Yes thank you. Erm what was erm Scoobie Doo's pal called? Shaggy. Shaggy thank you. Do you remember that then? Yes. Off the telly and everything. What do you do with yourself Sharon? Oh knitting sewing. Are you? It sounds like there's a lot going on where you are. Oh yes. What is it? Oh there's it's er my daughter she's got the television on. Oh is it? Yes. I thought you'd got a raging battle going on in your front room. Oh yes. Erm give me thirty seconds worth of famous dogs they can be in cartoons, they can be in history, they can be in films, they can be anywhere and we'll do it in half an hours time. Same for you June. Yes. All right so we'll have thirty seconds worth of famous dogs and pooches. Right. Later on you can go and control Rob there. What was he saying then when he was shouting up there? Erm what were you saying Rob? He's taken things off the floor and now he's taken the floor up. Oh has he? Yes. Well so long as he's happy June that's the main thing isn't it? I'll talk to you in half an hours time. Right-oh. All right then and I hope it's all calmed down by then as well. So it's June from Mansfield who's our reigning champ and Sharon from Grantham on Loot at Lunchtime we'll do it at around half one. Now these are The Who and A Pin Ball Wizard. They're The Who and er A Pin Ball Wizard a car park queue wizard is er Annie Smith what's happening? The Walkden Street car park in Mansfield that's got plenty of space. In the centre of Nottingham Trinity Square busy but you won't have to queue for the Victoria Centre or the Broadmoor next update in ten minutes time. Almost called you a witch there but I stopped just in time because it's not Thank you. quite what I meant. We'll do er we'll do the traffic and trains and planes in full after the er main news in ten minutes time we'll check the whole lot then. We love her really. Good afternoon from the county's favourite station now it's one o'clock. And the headlines this lunchtime it's confirmed that Calverton Colliery in Nottinghamshire is to go into the review procedure putting another six hundred miners' jobs at risk. Preston Crown Court is told that the two boys accused of murdering the Merseyside toddler James Bulger each blamed the other for attacking the child. And a court in Nottingham hears how a taxi driver sexually assaulted a female passenger after driving her to a secluded spot in Park. They're the headlines today the news in detail from Alison Ford. Calverton Colliery's been put into the review procedure by British Coal. They say the pit's lost more than six million pounds this year and it's prospects aren't good because of a lack of markets. But Calverton's six hundred and forty miners must wait another twenty four hours before hearing their fate because the Coal Board have refused to say whether they want to close the pit or reduce its workforce. Nigel Bell reports. The Midlands leader of the pit deputies union NACODS was first to emerge from the review meeting at Edwinstowe Ray Hilton summed up the mood of the mining unions. The reaction in there has been a bit bitter really because one feels that British Coal aren't telling everything that that's happening. Obviously they're starting now to pick the bits off one by one. Equally critical was the U D M President Neil Greatorex. We're sat in there like lemons waiting for an announcement that allayed the fears for the future of the industry and we've got absolutely nothing. Bilsthorpe at least lives to fight another day. The men at Calverton will find out their fate tomorrow when a reconvened review meeting's held. Ian Slater Calverton's U D M branch delegate says the speed at which the meeting has been arranged is another attempt by British Coal to reduce the review period which could give the mine a nine month life line. They would have had to have done it within three weeks anyway and I think the way they are looking at it if they do that tomorrow then they're counting from then till the next stage. Miners will have up to two weeks before they need to say whether they want to challenge British Coal's intentions. The funerals are taking place of five people killed when gunmen opened fire in a bar at Greysteel in County Londonderry on Saturday night. Two more victims will be buried elsewhere. Speaking of the funerals the former Bishop of Derry, Edward Daley appealed to politicians to treat what he described as this intolerable situation with the utmost urgency. Lucy Atherton reports. Bishop Daley said we must appeal repeatedly to those faceless heartless murderers of all organizations and to all those who identify with them to stop their diabolical activities. We must appeal to Government and those charged with political responsibility to treat this intolerable situation with the urgency and priority it deserves. The local priest Father John Gallagher said Saturday's slaughter had united rather than divided the community as the killers had intended. He believed on this sad day that feeling of reconciliation was a reason for hope. Two more men have been arrested by police investigating the shootings. Eleven people are now being questioned. The jury in the James Bulger murder trial at Preston have been hearing how the two eleven year old boys accused of murder blamed each other for most of the violence. The prosecution said that in interviews with the police both children had demonstrated a fluent capacity to tell lies. From Preston Crown Court Kevin Bucket reports. The prosecuting barrister Richard Q C described how the two boys were interviewed separately by police. At first both denied having anything to do with the abduction and murder but later changed their stories when presented with police evidence. One child referred to in court as child A, finally admitted taking James Bulger to a railway embankment near Walton but he said it was the other boy child B who threw bricks at him and hit him with a stick and a metal bar. Mr said that when child B eventually gave his account of what had happened he claimed that he had only thrown small stones at James and had deliberately tried to miss. He blamed the other boy, child A for most of the violence. Mr said it was clear both defendants had played a part in causing James Bulger's death. The trial will continue this afternoon. Nottingham Crown Court's been told that a taxi driver sexually assaulted a woman passenger after ignoring her instructions and driving her to a secluded area in Clumber Park. This report from Chris Throup. Forty one year old of King Street in Worksop denies indecently assaulting the twenty seven year old woman in October last year. The court heard she went to a taxi rank in Worksop and asked to be taken to an address where her mother lived. The woman told the court drove her instead to Clumber Park where he unclipped the sign on his taxi then assaulted her in the vehicle before driving her back to Worksop. The whole episode allegedly lasted about an hour and a half. told the police it never took place. The trial continues. You're listening to B B C Radio Nottingham news the time is five past one. Police say organized groups of children are behind a spate of thefts from elderly shoppers at Long Eaton. Gangs of children some as young as eight have been targeting pensioners in the town centre and have stolen money and property worth hundreds of pounds. Rob Sissons reports. Police have described the crimes as despicable. On Friday and yesterday police received eight reports of youngsters stealing property from pensioners. The thefts all took place at lunch time many on the town's High Street and some inside shops. Sergeant Martin Cooper believes about twenty youngsters are involved. He says they're highly organized and work in small groups. He says all the thefts followed a similar pattern. Three or four of these youngsters will approach the elderly person, try and confuse them by speaking to them about something completely irrelevant, and just er disappear during which time of course er valuables have been taken from these people. Police suspect the thieves come from outside the Long Eaton area and it's thought the youngsters who are aged from eight into their early teens may be organized by adults. Seven law lords acting as the highest court in the Commonwealth have ruled that two men on death row in Jamaica for fourteen years should have their sentence commuted to life imprisonment. Their death sentence for murder has nearly been carried out three times. The ruling by a British court could decide the fate of more than a hundred other men across the Commonwealth also under sentence of death. John Silverman reports. On three occasions since nineteen seventy nine execution warrants have been served against Earl Pratt and Ivan Morgan. Each time they've been reprieved at the last moment. The law lords in their ruling talk of the agony of mind the men must have suffered as they alternated between hope and despair. We regard it as an inhuman act, they say, to keep a man facing the agony of execution over a long extended period. Jamaica alone has a hundred and five prisoners who've been on death row for more than five years. In Trinidad some condemned men have awaited execution even longer. Like Earl Pratt and Ivan Morgan they're all now expected to have their sentences commuted to life imprisonment. Sixteen labour MPs are calling on the North Nottinghamshire Health Authority to relocate all the staff from the Harlow Wood Orthopaedic Hospital when it closes. In a Commons motion they say they deeply regret the decision to shut the hospital which they argue is a direct result of Government reforms in the National Health Service. Jeremy Ball reports. The sixteen include the Sherwood MP Paddy Tipping Ashfield's Geoff Houn and Alan Neal who represents Mansfield. They say that when the decision was made to transfer the spinal unit at Harlow Wood to Nottingham's Queens Medical Centre about a third of the hospital's work was removed and no new contracts were negotiated to fill the gap. Health union officials say as many as a hundred and fifty jobs could be lost with the closure of the hospital which was confirmed last week after months of speculation. The year long campaign to save it included a petition to Downing Street with twenty four thousand signatures. Nottinghamshire police are appealing for witnesses to a road accident on the A six three one Beckingham bypass in which a young boy was seriously injured. Four year old Jessie Smith from Lane in Gainsborough is in intensive care at the Queens Medical Centre. He was travelling in a Lancia Prisma saloon which lost control and overturned just before midnight on Sunday. Now the look at the lunch time sports news here's John Shaw. Notts County manager Mick Walker has named the same fourteen that were on duty at the City ground on Saturday for tonight's journey to Wolves. So Andy Legg is still out the question remains as to whether Gary will be in the starting lineup after Tony impressive performance against Forrest. Mansfield Town travel to fourth placed without fane Wayne Fairclough who's still injured and Ian Stringfellow who's recovering from flu. Paul Holland is available again though after suspension. Rugby Union officials have decided to take no further action against the All Blacks over the controversial Phil affair. The England player was left needing fifteen stitches in an eye wound after a rucking incident during the All Blacks match against the South West on Saturday. The R F U condemned the incident in unusually strong terms but now seem ready to let the matter rest. And ice hockey, there'll be an extra game at the Ice Stadium on Saturday before the Pampas meet Cardiff Devils because Peterborough Pirates no longer have use of their rink. They'll be playing their match against Sheffield Steelers at the Ice Stadium at half past one. And the main points of the news again this lunch time. A court in London has heard how a taxi driver sexually assaulted a female passenger after driving her to a secluded spot in Clumber Park. Preston Cro Crown Court has been told that the two boys accused of murdering the Merseyside toddler James Bulger each blamed the other for attacking the child. And Calverton Colliery has been put into the review procedure by British Coal. They say the pit's lost more than six million pounds this year and its prospects aren't good because of a lack of markets. Ten past one traffic and trains and planes in full. On the trains British Rail say it's all fine no problems East Midlands Airport it's all fine there no delays to the services at the moment. Let's listen for a space with Annie Smith. In Nottingham city centre you'll find space to park at the Broadmarsh Centre and Fletchergate you won't have to queue for the Victoria Centre car park but Trinity Square that's proving to be fairly busy so expect a short wait to park there. No problems if you want to make use of the park and ride service. The Forest Race Course and Queens they've all got plenty of space while in the centre of Mansfield you've got room to pork park even at the Walkden Street car park. Finally taking a look at the traffic on Nottingham's roads as far as I can tell it's all moving fairly steadily. Annie Smith radio Nottingham travel. I suppose you could pork if you wanted to couldn't you ? you could if you wanted to. Nobody would know. Well thank you have a lovely afternoon. And you. Tarrah. Bye. Erm other places to watch out for in Baysford the work is continuing on David Lane and Southwick Street the crossing there is closed diversions are in place and there have been long delays in the area there so unless you have to I wouldn't. In the centre of Newark there's works on Beesmarket Hill part of Bargate and Castlegate have been closed and diversions are in place there. And on the A one there are lane closures at Claypole just south of Newark and South Crescent is closed in Clipstone between First Avenue and North Crescent. That'll do us for now we'll update the traffic again for you in half an hour's time radio Nottingham F M one O three point eight and ninety five point five Nottinghamshire's favourite station with the weather forecast for the rest of the afternoon. It's going to remain dry but dull the temperature only rising to seven Celsius forty five Fahrenheit so it will feel chilly in the easterly breeze. Mainly light rain expected this evening the outbreaks should die out around midnight the rest of the night then being cloudy and misty with a little drizzle in places. The overnight low six Celsius forty three Fahrenheit. And Wednesday another cloudy day with the risk of an odd shower it will be warmer than today though Wednesday's high twelve Celsius fifty four Fahrenheit. The Strawbs and er and Part of the Union and I'm reliably informed by John Shaw that the Strawbs are supporting Lindisfarne at the Concert Hall in er December so there you are one to one. This is Radio Nottingham it's a quarter past one at these are the clues for Kids' County what are they on about here? Who are they on about here? He's famous he's got a wife he's normally on the news he's posh and he dresses up smart he writes he writes papers out. Those last clues, He's posh and he dresses up smart somebody rang and is it Dennis, no. It's er it's not Brian Clough and it's not Kenneth Clarke and it's not D H Lawrence either. Erm Terry from Top Valley is on. Hello. Hello mate. Are you all right? Yes not bad are you? Well I'm fine coping with it all. Oh jolly good. Are you going to bonfire at the weekend? Er might do yes. Do you know where you're going? Might go to Lolworth Corporation on the Forest. Er oh right I see. pretty safe isn't it? Yeah there's our Action Line are doing a a bit list of bonfires and you can ring them up and they'll tell you where to go. Oh I didn't know that. In er in the nicest possible way. Oh super. So er if you're stuck for one to go to give them a call four double one two double two and er they'll tell you where to go. Similarly if people are organizing bonfires and they want their bonfire to go on Action Line's list then they can give them a ring as well you see? Mm it's What's a good idea. What's the number Terry. Er four double one two double one. Four double one two double two. Four double one two double two that's it. That's it now don't forget will you? Sorry yes. Just checking. Yes. Have it written out five hundred times by the morning. Else there'll be trouble. Now and and are you doing any exciting today that you can tell us about and share with us? No not a lot really no. Nothing. No just listening to the show. Oh yeah listen to the rattling on and everything. Yes it's good. What what do you think about these erm the this tulip thing and these trees down by erm the church? Well myself personally Mm. You mean the er stone the Yeah the one that's by Marks and Sparks. I think it's superb. Do you love it? I do. So you don't you don't want them to move it at all? Not at all. Any what about the trees that are around it as well? I think well I mean the bit of green's good isn't it? Well I you know. I don't think people appreciate art a lot do they? There are some people who think that you shouldn't be allowed to cut trees down. No I do I I believe in that as well think you should keep a lot of er green about, looks good. But I think that I think the plan is to move them and to put some other ones down as well. Oh yeah yeah. I'm going to try and get them to come on and talk about this tomorrow. Yeah that's right. These er these these council people cos it's Yeah. People ringing up about it and talking about it all the time aren't they? Well that's right yeah. I think the plan is to to shift the tulip somewhere else. Somebody said the only suitable place for that daft leaf is in the middle of the arboretum lake. Not at all. . I'll take it put in my back garden. Well you know you have it then if they're sh I would. If they're short of somewhere to put it we'll send it up Top Valley Terry. It would take a lot of doing. Well then I would get up there although no. Er look erm Kids' County anyway who are they talking about? I think its John Major. John Major no. No. No it needs to be somebody who's connected with Nottinghamshire. Ah does it? You see. Ah. Yeah un unless er he might have moved into Top Valley. You know he might might have a little weekend house there. You never know. Just opposite Tesco. Yeah. Might be but I doubt it so no it's not John Major but it was a good thought Terry. Okay. Tarrah. Have a nice day now. Oh well I'll do my best and if er if they're stuck for somewhere with a leaf then er we'll send them round. Jean from Clifton hello Jean. Hello. How are you? All right thank you. And what's happening up your end then? Erm well ironing washing baby sitting . Bory snory chory things isn't it then eh? Yes. Bory snory chory things going on . Yes. Dear. What do you think about this tulip thing? Erm I'm not all that impressed. Aren't you? What about the trees around it do you think they should stay ? Yes I think I like the trees yeah I think they look all right but I I just don't like that that ornament thing or whatever it is. That big big doo da thing you know big thing. Oh Norah from Compton Acres has rung up and says why spoil the arboretum lake ? Cos you know one of the people says that the best place for it is to lob it in the arboretum lake. Yes You know it's a shame isn't it? Yeah but I ju just think it's waste of money. So you think save the trees but ditch the tulip. Yes definite. All right so cos this is vital isn't it. Cos we all walk past it don't we every week? Yep. When you go shopping. Yep. Mind you it's whe it's when that waters trickling down. It sounds horrible Well it's not trickled for a while has it? No not not down the street like it used to do. No cos it it gives no and then it used to freeze over and you got a beautiful skating rink there Yes. didn't you? When it freezed over. Erm I'll try and get the the erm the council people on to talk about it to us Yes. I think and just tell us what they're doing what's going on with it. Anyway Kids' County who are they talking about Jean? Er Brandon Bravo. Erm no it's not. Oh right. It's not Martin Brandon Bravo it isn't no. Right. No it could have been but it isn't. Could have been. Anyway never mind . Yep bye. Tarrah bye bye. Erm Joyce is on from Sandiacre hello Joyce. Hello. How are you? All right thank you. Good you've not been on for a while either have you? No. Why? come on. Aye? I've been on once once or twice but no But but no. No. I see cos you like to keep yourself to yourself don't you Joyce? True true. My daughter phoned up actually but she's just had a phone call to go out so she's left me t' answer . Oh she gone out ladding has she again? Er not ladding no. On the razz is she on the pull? She's just gone to see somebody . Oh has she? Cos I always like to know Joyce you see . I always like to find out you know never leave any unturned. That's it. That's what I say so nothing much happening today with you? No I'm doing a crossword, listening to the wireless . Are you are you stuck on any of them cos I like to help. No I've er just got one to put in What is it then? look at the clue. What is it then? I don't know for a minute wait a minute Go and get it and we'll see we'll see if we can help. What what paper is this in then? The er Peop er the Mirror. The Mirror. The Mirror I've done the Sun. Right. I've done the Sun, I'm on the Mirror now. Erm which one are we on number one down near the courtyard. What? Near the courtyard five words . How many letters? Five letters. Begins with a C. Yeah. And the third letter is O. One two and it's near the courtyard. Yep. All right we'll see if anybody knows. You do that. All right we'll see we'll see it's not got to fit in with anything else has it? Er no. No right and that's er what number down was it? Number one. One down in the Mirror . Yes that's it. Cos I always like to help. And we'll see if anybody knows then we'll pass it on don't you think about it now don't you fret about it cos some somebody will have worked it out and will ring and tell me. So er you can just continue now putting your feet up I think Joyce Oh yes definitely. The best thing don't worry yourself. All right so it's er it's one down in the Mirror crossword it's C something O something something That's right. And it's near the courtyard. Yep. All right then. I think it must be close We'll we'll see perhaps could be couldn't it? See how the it could be couldn't it? Definite. The brain's just worked. Erm Kids' County Joyce here's the clues. He's famous he's got a wife The Sheriff of Nottingham Eh? he's normally on the news The Sheriff of Nottingham Eh? I wanted to play the clues again. Oh so sorry Oh go on let me I like doing that. Go on then. The only bit of pleasure I get Joyce . Who'd you say it was? Sheriff of Nottingham. No. No. No but you're on the right lines now. Oh. Well you're thinking right now you've got your crossword sussed. . And er you think you're right with Kids' County give us a ring soon. Okay bye. Tarrah. Bye bye. Here's the clues then, He's famous he's got a wife he's normally on the news he's posh and he dresses up smart he writes he writes papers out. Who are they on about? Three four three four three four to call erm David Judd from Eastwood says close is the answer for Joyce's crossword so we worked it out together and we got there so er one down in the Mirror is close. Cos David Judd from Eastwood says so. To business with Kids' County here's the clues, He's famous he's got a wife he's normally on the news he's posh and he dresses up smart he writes he writes papers out. Now it's not John Major and it's not Martin Brandon Bravo and it's not the Sheriff although we're thinking on the right lines there, and it's not Kenneth Clarke or Brian Clough and it certainly isn't Dennis McCarthy and it's not D H Lawrence either. Three four three four three four to call for a bash at Kids' County er we'll see if we can sort it out while this is on from the Dooleys. They're the Dooleys, Wanted by the Dooleys. If er if you're coming into Radio Nottingham today or ringing up for anything then erm say happy birthday to Victoria who is er on reception and er the birthday cake is lovely. Mm delicious that whoever made that it's gorgeous and er what else have we got the chocolate and things here brilliant so if you're ringing up for anything say happy birthday to Victoria there cos she's erm celebrating today. Dunno how old she is but looks good on it anyway erm the erm the er let's do these these bits of paper er lost cats and dogs and things. The R S P C A at Hyson Green are on seven eight four nine six five. Er today a er an injured young black female cat found in Lincoln Street in the Baysford area if it's yours seven eight four nine six five er give them a call at the R S P C A at Hyson Green. A dog lost from Bulwell on Sunday morning it's a Jack Russell with long hair and it's white and black twelve years old and er it's a bitch seven five two seven nine O seven five two seven nine O if you can help. That's a dog lost from Bulwell on Sunday morning it's a Jack Russell with er long hair it's white and black and it's twelve years old and it's a bitch, seven five two seven nine O if er you can help there. A dog found it's a black one found on Third Avenue at Carlton and it's a black collie it's young and it has no collar on. It's now with the Gedling dog warden that one. Er cat lost, lost since July the twenty sixth oh I remember it well er lost in Hendon Rise er it's been seen again in Cromer Road and it's er it's a black fluffy cat and it's male with a bushy tail and a yellow collar and it's got one of these I D chip things under it's skin. eight seven two five four six eight seven two five four six to call if you can help there. More from the R S P C A at Green, seven eight four nine six five found on the twenty ninth of October two black female kittens with collars on found in Aspley, on the twenty first of October a green budgie found in Hyson Green, and on the twenty third of October a white adult female cat with a collar on found in Bulwell. Seven eight four nine six five to call if any of those are yours. Nearly done erm Sue in Bulwell needs help with her Amstrad P C W nine five one two. She can't get any data back can anyone help ? If you're an expert on these things these er Amstrad things because I know some they do tend to lose things don't they to disappear of you just can't get it back out erm can anyone help cos she's stuck with it, seven six double one three four. It's an Amstrad P C W nine five one two er can anyone help other than saying put it in a carrier bag and lob it off Trent Bridge. Seven six double one three four to call if erm you can help Sue in Bulwell with her Amstrad problems. A budgie found found this morning in the Bobsmill area it's yellow and green, two nine three eight two five two nine three eight two five can you call after four o'clock and er last one a cat found in Standhill Road in Carlton found last night it's black and white and it's got a pink collar on, five two six six seven one five two six six seven one. That's a cat found in Standhill Road in Carlton last night it's black and white with a pink collar and it's five two six six seven one to call if you can help there. And anything that I can do you for three four three four three four to ring. B B C radio Nottingham is proud and pleased to take you to the major of far away places so why not spend a November Tuesday night in Rochdale with us. The warmth and luxury of Scotland will greet Mansfield Town in the third division, Simon Mapletoft is your courier there. Oh been there already ha? Well why not try Wolverhampton the golden glow of the amber shirts of Wolves will take on the proudly bar coded Magpies and wouldn't we like to see Notts wallop Wolves. Well yes we would and you can hear Colin Slater beamed from Molyneaux tonight in a sports special. Also words from the former England cricket captain Graham Gooch, Nottinghamshire's Jimmy Smith on basketball and of course the globe trotting and well tanned Martin Fisher from five past seven G M T. Mm lovely must phone and get a brochure for that one. You've got until nine o'clock tomorrow morning to have route round the attic or down in the cellar to see if you've got a small fortune waiting to be discovered. Yes tomorrow morning Bruce Fern will be here for our monthly antiques and collectibles phone-in. So we'll find out together whether you're sitting on a fortune tomorrow morning. Catherine Marsden will be here tomorrow to give you advice about keeping your skin young and beautiful and Dennis Howell who's always young and fairly beautiful will be looking at the films on T V next week. There he is like erm a bed sheet with a gob on. Dennis Roussos and er For Ever and Ever June's on from Mansfield hello. Hello. Are you all right? Yes thank you. Good you you sorted out and sussed with Loot at Lunchtime for today are you? I hope so yes. Well I hope so too and er Sharon from Grantham taking you on hello Sharon. Hello. You sorted out as well? I think so. Is it is it really dull in Grantham? Well it's rather dull and cloudy yes. No I mean just just life in general not the weather . Oh definitely yes. Is it very dull? Yes. What's the most exciting thing that's happened to you in Grantham? Not a lot really . No paint dried once did it or? Oh something like that yeah. Cos you know Grantham has the reputation for being the what was the dullest place in the in the country wasn't it? Yes. Or the dullest place in the entire universe. Probably the dullest in the cosmos. Yes. And some people say that's the best thing that happened to it being voted that cos it meant people had done things about it and sorted it out but you think it's still dull as Yes I do. dull as er Not a lot of activity. What would you like to do to to sort out Grantham then Sharon? You know get a bit of life in the place a bit of zest . Oh I don't know a bit excitement I think A bit a bit of vim and vigour. Wha wha what's your idea of a good time Sharon something exciting for Grantham? Oh I don't know a bit more for us for us women I think. Is it like what? Oh I don't know anything that's going . Anything that's going for us women. Yes. Right I s well I'm sure if er if the Grantham planners are listening then sound advice for them Sharon isn't it? Yes. Anything that's going for us women for them well that'll have them sorted won't it? Erm look I'll put June on from Mansfield first of all I wanted thirty seconds worth of famous dogs cos we had er why Nottinghamshire's dogs are too dumpy earlier on didn't we?. Bonzo, Bengi,Bo Boson, Bullet, Black Bob, Bess, Boop, Bonny, Bernard, Bouncer, Beethoven, Deputy Dog,Do Dougal,Droo Droopy, Fido, Freda, France, Goofy, Goldie, Gabby, Hobo, Lassie, Lady, Mr Dog, Masher,Ni Nipper, Petra, Patch, Rover, Rhubarb, Rin Tin Tin, Rolly, Snoopy, Spots, Spit, Sandy, Shep, Snowy, Spike, Sweep, Scooby Doo, Scrappy Doo,Swor Snorbits, Woofter, Winnie, Pongo, Woolly Jumper, K-nine, Guide Dog, Sheep Dog, Dirty Dog, Lazy Dog, Mad Dog, K-nine erm. Two canines in there June. Ooh goodness. isn't it? In there and Rhubarb I used to like that. Yes? Do you remember Rhubarb on the telly wasn't it good that it like came on after Magic Roundabout finished didn't it? Yes Rhubarb and Custard. And they put Rhubarb on there. Yes. I didn't like it at first cos all the animation was all too fuzzy and wobbly and everything I can remember cos I didn't think it was as good as the Magic Roundabout but then yeah I love it now. Aha. Don't we ramble on about some strange things June? We do don't we? Don't you think strange but true Sharon from Grantham you've got fifty three to beat are you read? Yes. Here we are. Lassie, Snowy, Wolf, Benji, Lady and the Tramp, a Hundred and One Dalmatians, Hobo, Hooch, Sweep, Dougal, Rin Tin Tin, Spot, Scrappy Doo, Scooby Doo, Bouncer, Rolly, Rebel, oh K-nine,I can't think of any more erm Andrex dog, oh oh dear I can't think of any more. All this time left I'm not used all this you could have snuck another ten in by now. Yeah I know I can't think of any more. But but you're stuck? Yes. There er twenty one Sharon and I think that might be a bit on the generous side so you've got to come back next and do the weather forecast for me is that all right? Oh well I'll try. Well you you're do your very best won't you I'm sure. All right I'll I'll I'll talk to you in a minute with the weather forecast and June from Mansfield. Hello. I forgot to ask are you busting out all over? Oh yes. Oh you are, oh right erm I'm searching for your prize list I know I had one there all these bits of paper you have to bring in every day. All this I've got it. Mhm. Eureka I have found it. Er you had three and seven and ten yesterday so choose three other ones. Two. Number two some sugar free sweets. Oh. They're quite nice they are you know. Yeah. Another one? Four. Number four a big wodgy pile of C Ds. Have you got a C D machine? Yes I have. Oh good and er what sort of things do you like? Erm classics. Classics. Yes. Ooh I don't know if we've got any classics in there. I think it might be all er noisy thump thump stuff. Oh. we'll sor we'll find you something something on the mellow side, June. Yes. Er another one. Er six. Number six is er a Radio Nottingham mug. Oh lovely. All right a new design new styling. Yes. Are you looking back on tomorrow then ? Yes I can tomorrow. Good well I'll I'll talk to you tomorrow. Why you can't the day after then you mean? I can't come on Thursday cos I'm doing a charity stall at Chesterfield. Oh right you're doing that? Yes. Well we hope you lose tomorrow then June I'll talk to you tomorrow . Have to lose tomorrow won't I. Bye bye. Bye. Tarrah. Er if you want to come on Loot and Lunchtime tomorrow ten to one quarter to oneish listen in then for the qualifying question and you can come on and take on June from Mansfield who's our reigning champ. This is erm Paul Young winding up Now I Know What Made Otis Blue. Paul John and er Now I Know What Made Otis Blue it's radio Nottingham Nottinghamshire's favourite station it's eighteen minutes now to two o'clock. Buses are er trains are fine say British Rail the er airport's fine as well say er East Midlands Airport no problems there er city centre traffic's all moving fine as well there's work still in Baysford on David Lane and Southwick Street where the crossing is closed expect a delay if you're heading there. The B six O three O at Edwinstowe is closed between the A six one four and the B six O three four for repairs. In Collington, Chapel Lane is closed for sewer works there. In Stapleford there's extra lights on Bessle Lane by the Derby Road junction and in Mansfield, Toot Hill is closed from Bridge Street. Also in Mansfield there's improvement work still on Chesterfield Road South and Rosemary Street too. Updates on the traffic throughout the afternoon and the full service at tea time tonight, Alan Clifford on for John Simons between half past four and seven later on radio Nottingham F M one O three point eight and ninety five point five. Nottinghamshire's favourite with the weather forecast for the rest of the afternoon, we go to Grantham and er Sharon tell us what's coming out the sky? Hello Hello off you go. Dry but dull today outbreaks of light rain this evening, Wednesday will be another dull day, risks of an odd shower. Thursday outlook for other fog patches will clear then dry but cloudy Thank you. Thank you. Was er marvellously done Sharon and we got the gist of it. Oh right Give us a call soon won't you? Pardon? Give us a ring soon. I will yeah And I hope I hope they sort out something in Grantham for us women for you . Yes so do I. All right then. Right thank you bye. Tarrah bye bye. Er Loot at Lunchtime back tomorrow ten to one quarter to oneish listen in then and we'll give you the qualifying question. Now Simon Ratcliffe's been in er all this lunchtime sort of keeping an eye on me haven't you Simon? Yes. Sort of er watching what I'm doing and everything and er you're not bored yet are you? No No give it time give it time. Have you seen er oh no Dennis hasn't come it yet actually I was going to say have you seen I've I've looked but he hasn't come in . Sitting in the other studio but actually it's Carl in there now and it's it's not Dennis in there at all and er how on earth I almost confused the two I don't know. But you want to say thank you to some people don't you you said. Yeah Off you go. Firstly can I say thank you to Asda and Long Eaton who I work for for allowing me the day off so I can come into Radio Nottingham. Bless 'em. Bless 'em all thank you as well to Radio Nottingham for allowing me to come in as part of my successful bid for Money Spinner. Well thank you for your money I mean that's That's the thing yeah. And finally thank you to anybody else who know me for whatever they've done during the year thank you. All right then well thank you Simon that's a broad thank you and and thank you very much for your money as well a hundred and fifty quid he gave that's loads of dosh er to to come in for the day as well and I'm going to take you out for a a nice lunch in a bit when he can wonder around have a poke around everywhere this afternoon too so should be all right shouldn't it that? More to come yeah. Yeah more to come yeah so it's it's worth all the dosh. Er Cilla Black this er she's to come now and er You're My World this one ooh go for the high notes. That Billy Joe Spears erm and er A Blanket on the Ground. It's Radio Nottingham it's eight minutes to two Ann Green from Mansfield got the er family ticket to go to Alton Towers for spotting the firework noise popping up at the beginning of Billy Joe Spears. So Ann Green from Mansfield off to see the Alton Towers fireworks display at the weekend enjoy it be brilliant. Kids' County these are the clues. He's famous he's got a wife he's normally on the news he's posh and he dresses up smart he writes, he writes papers out. There who are they talking about so far anyway it's not Kenneth Clarke or Brian Clough or Dennis McCarthy or er D H Lawrence or John Major or Martin Brandon Bravo or the Sheriff. Freda's on from Hucknell, hello Freda. Hello. Hello how are you ? Are you all right? Yes thank you, listening to you. Good. Having little little laughs about you. Well why what have I done? One of the ladies that she was talking about the dogs she said Freda you see. Yeah. Well it reminds me when I was in a shop on the High Street for many years and a little boy and girl came in with a, with an Alsatian dog, a puppy. Yeah. And I said what a lovely little puppy, what's her name, and it said Freda. . I said Freda they says yes we've named it after you because we like you. Oh was it. You know er you know in Woollaton Hall? Yes. You know that big monkey that's in there that big stuffed monkey that's called that's Freda. Eh? Don't say that's Freda. No that's called Geoff. Oh is it? That is but I don't think it was after me. Oh. but it is. Was it re , oh I say. Oh well this was a nice Alsatian . Was it? You're obviously happy today Freda aren't you? I always am. We find you in jovial and jolly mood which is a good thing. Oh I always am. I'm looking outside at the lovely trees changing the colour. They was once green and now they're yellow, they're gorgeous. Really gorgeous. Do you like it, you like autumn do you Freda? No I like spring. I like spring best cos autumn's dirty. Do you like spring when you can start to feel frisky? What at my age? Don't you Fre well you never know. I'm at the age, that er more things come to you than your old age pension book. You'll come to that Geoff if you're lucky. Well I kno yes. Yes. I think I'm catching you up. Look I Look I, Kid's Kids' County who are they talking about? I've got two names really but my first one is Councillor Pettit. No. Well it only one bite at the cherry . the other one is then? Well I don't want to know. All right then. All right. Bye bye. Give us a ring soon bye bye. Bye bye. Tarrah. Pete's on, from Ilkeston, hello. Hello. How are you? All right thanks. and your bit of Ilkeston treating you well is it? Yes not too bad. Good good a anything going off of note? Er no not really, they just had their local fair last week but er. Oh yes Ilkeston fair, did you go? No. Why? Cost too much money. Y well, what was it, a couple of quid a ride or something or? Well I think they put them up to, yeah two, two fifty a ride, yeah. Did they? Yes. A lot innit that? It is. That's a lot,you can't have a go on everything, can you? No you can't. Unless unless you're worth a bob or a hundred. Look erm Well that's right. Kids' County who do we need Pete? Er I'd say it were Dr Hilary Jones. No. No. It needs to be somebody who's got something to do with Nottinghamshire. Oh. And er, unless you know something that I don't, I don't think he has Pete. Yeah okay then. I don't think so. Tarrah. Right cheers. Bye bye give us a ring soon. Dorothy's on from Carlton, hello Dot. Hello. How are you? Fine. May I call you Dot? Yes. You don't mind do you ? . You don't mind do you, you don't give a monkeys, do you Dot? No. Well that's the way to be. Can I say congratulations for Money Spinner Oh worthy cause and fantastic we were glued to the radio all weekend. Oh were you? Good. I think my I've got the autograph book and Oh right at the end did you ? Clayderman collection the lot of it I get Oh brilliant I think my gob's just recovered from that. I bet. There all that ranting at the end. Anyway look there's Kids' County er Dorothy who do we need? Lord Mayor of Nottingham? Yes Oh thank the Lord for that. Got to thank the Lord Mayor for that actually Dorothy . Er you can have some er some sweets and things. You can have erm loads of toffees. You can have a video. You can have some mugs and you can have loads of nuts in tubes and all sorts, all right? All right, thanks very much. Tarrah. Tarrah. Bye bye er that's that done, now we'll do another one tomorrow. Now Nottinghamshire's big bang, a week of pretty fireworks day two. Guy Fawkes has got to answer for, hasn't he. In a few days time we'll be sitting him on top of a bonfire and standing around in the cold night while we light up the sky with loads of colour. Bit strange when you think of it like that. It's the time of year, of course, when the fire brigade can be busy, when things go wrong. Mike Stone is an Assistant Divisional Officer for the Fire Safety Department of the Nottinghamshire Brigade. Most of our extra work comes in fact the run-up to er bonfire night. Certainly over the years the the major proportion of our fire fighting, in terms of secondary fires, what we term secondary fires, the bonfires, was always concentrated around this period and going back quite a few years we used to have special appliances put on standby, extra crews and so on. But because of the advent now of erm organized bonfires, that risk has receded but having said that it has only receded, not gone away. These problems is erm young people, using fireworks in not the proper manner. We still get an , er quite a few calls where fireworks have been pushed through letter boxes,in including pillar boxes, and they can cause all sorts of havoc although they'll not do an awful lot of damage to individuals. But then of course with erm, the modern fireworks there is still in injury problem. Seventeen people were injured last year that we know of, er probably many more were injured that never even bothered to report it, and that's just in Nottinghamshire. So we and that's that really is er is too higher proportion for this day and age, particularly with all the publicity that's being put out. So what care should you take when handling fireworks? Richard Lowe and Jean Terrington are the directors of Fireworks Galore in Bulwell. The first thing of course is to follow the firework code, which is to keep the fireworks in a box and closed until you're ready to use them. To read the instructions which is paramount and every firework has instructions on. To light it at arms length and then to stand well away while it fires and never return to a firework if it doesn't seem to go off. And particularly don't do something that's foolish or thoughtless or silly. Use a bit of common sense because they can be quite powerful. When you start to build bonfires in someone's back garden, there's never enough space between the fire and the property, and consequently you can get all sorts of damage er either of a minor nature of blistering, or at the other end of the scale complete burn out of the house. Bonfire night is one of those traditions that we perpetuate and if it is to be perpetuated, then go to organized bonfires. You'll get better value for money, better fireworks and it's going to be a d a darn sight safer. One classic er case that only occurred a few years ago and it was way before bonfire night, but erm, people working from home to try and make a little bit of pin money, a young lady had taken on the task of putting sparklers into five into a little bag for a particular manufacturer. This was done from her own home and there were something like fifty thousand sparklers in that house with young children running around. Now when we came across that it was dealt with very quickly and the, er sparklers were removed, but, er you know, the potential danger there particularly with young children running around, might want to play with a sparkler, with thirty or fifty thousand of the things in the same room. So that that sort of thing we've come across. Other things are where people are throwing fireworks around thinking it's a great joke, erm serious injuries have occurred in the past with that. We've had houses set on fire, we've been to a furniture factory, manufacturers, er they have had a loss of, massive loss through erm a sky rocket falling into their timber yard. So you know there are lots of things like that happening. Nottinghamshire's big bang day two with the fire brigade, chunk three tomorrow. It's Dennis next Tuesday afternoon so it's Where Are You Now on Afternoon Special, on the county's favourite radio station, it's B B C Radio Nottingham at two o'clock. Radio Nottingham news with Rob Thomlinson. British Coal have put Calverton Colliery into review, but the pit's six hundred and forty miners must wait another twenty four hours to hear whether they intend closing the pit or just reducing its workforce. A meeting will be held at Calverton Miner's Welfare tomorrow morning. The President of the Union of Democratic Mine Workers has condemned British Coal. Neil Greatorex says they refused to answer questions on the long term future of the industry. We're no better off now than what we were before. What they've actually done today is announced that they want to put er Calverton into review and at least it tells people at Calverton what the situation's going to be for the future. They've not said a word on the rest of the industry and in fact won't say it and they've been pressed very very hard on what the future entails for the rest of the coal field. It looks like they're going to announce it by stealth, one pit at a time and take it right through the review procedure at three month stages. Preston Crown Court has been told that the two eleven year old boys accused of murdering the Merseyside toddler James Bulger, blamed each other for most of the violence. On the second day of the trail the trial rather the prosecution said that in interviews with the police the pair had demonstrated a fluent capacity to tell lies. The two boys both deny abducting and murdering two year old James in February. The funerals are being held today of the seven people who died when Loyalist gunmen attacked a bar at Greysteel in County Londonderry on Saturday night. Five of the victims have been buried this morning at their local church in Greysteel. From there Peter Hunt reports. It was a dignified and deeply moving occasion, the funerals of five ordinary people leading ordinary lives until they were gunned down by Loyalist terrorists. Three of the coffins arrived at the Star of the Sea Church together. Hundreds walked behind them holding hands. The body of eighty one year old James Moore was carried into the church by his brothers some of his twenty two grandchildren walked behind. During the funeral mass there was much talk of sadness, grief and bewilderment but no reference to revenge. The congregation heard the retired Bishop of Derry, Dr Edward Daley urge politicians to treat what he called this intolerable situation with the urgency and priority it deserved. Two more men have been arrested by police investigating the shootings at Greysteel eleven people are now being questioned. Meanwhile the Prime Minister is understood to be arranging a series of meetings with the leaders of all the main constitutional parties in Northern Ireland. Yesterday Downing Street said Mr Major had concrete proposals to put before the parties to achieve a lasting peace in the province. The first meetings are expected to take place on Thursday. Nottingham Crown Court's been told that a taxi driver sexually assaulted a woman passenger after ignoring her This report from Chris Throup. Forty one year old Kumar of King Street in Worksop denies indecently assaulting the twenty seven year old woman in October last year. The court heard she went to a taxi rank in Worksop and asked to be taken to an address where her mother lived. The woman told the court drove her instead to Clumber Park where he unclipped the sign on his taxi then assaulted her in the vehicle before driving her back to Workshop. The whole episode allegedly lasted about an hour and a half. told the police it never took place. The trial continues. Sixteen labour MPs are calling on the North Nottinghamshire Health Authority to relocate all the staff from the Harlow Wood Orthopaedic Hospital when it closes. In a Commons motion they say they deeply regret the decision to shut the hospital which they argue is a direct result of Government reforms in the National Health Service. Police believe organized groups of teenagers are behind a spate of thefts from shoppers at Long Eaton. They say gangs of youngsters have been targeting elderly people in the town centre and stealing purses from them. There have been several thefts including some yesterday and last Friday. Police are appealing for witnesses. The weather forecast now for Nottinghamshire. Much of the daylight hours should remain dry but dull the temperature only rising to seven Celsius, forty five Fahrenheit which will feel chilly in the easterly breeze. Outbreaks of mainly light rain are expected this evening but these should die out around midnight. B B C Radio Nottingham news, it's five minutes past two. Hello and welcome to Tuesday's edition of Afternoon Special linking the East Midlands. With it being Tuesday our all important feature our missing persons feature Where Are You Now around about half past three. If you've lost touch with a friend relative or neighbour we could find them for you this afternoon if they're still in the East Midlands. Call us on Nottingham three four three four three four if you want to go on Where Are You Now the feature we have at half past three but ring soonest please. On the hour the news and weather, and we'd like to hear from you this afternoon cos we have a phone-in and you can take part and have a chat on the air. Simply ring us on Nottingham three four three four three four to have a chat. You have to dial the code O six O two if you are ringing from outside the Nottingham area. Music throughout the programme and a musical competition at the beginning giving you a chance to win a prize if you can answer the question about the record. And we'll sort out last week's postal competition so don't ring in for this one and the question was, What's this got to do with a company? We'll sort out four winners. Yes we've got four winners I think after the record. What's this got to do with a company? What's that got to do with a company? That's the question we asked last week, well because they're chairman of the board. The group is called Chairman of the Board that's what it's got to do with a company and er corny isn't it. Never mind. Er prize goes to J Saxton of , New Whittington Chesterfield. You get a prize for telling us it's Chairman of the Board that's what it's got to do with a company. You too you too Joanne Sullivan of , Boston a prize for you. And for Mrs Stephanie Pearson of , Coleville and one more coming out the bag and it turns out to be C Fletcher of , Chilwell. You win a prize as well. All said Chairman of the Board that's what it's got to do with a company. All right that's how we play the game a question's asked about every record we play the question about this next record give us a ring on Nottingham three four three four three four if you know the answer is, Which local group had a hit with this one? And the question is, Which local group had a hit with that one? On the line from Lutterworth, Glenys Glenys. Hello Yes. Is it the Marcels? Well which local group had a hit with that one? Oh oh I thought it was made by the Marcels. No the question is Oh which local group had a hit with that one ? Showaddywaddy. Yes. Oh . Yes. Yes all right so you get a prize. Can you call for it any Er no they're going to send it to me Okay all right okay. Okay. Bye. Bye. And from Church Gresley Angela is it? Hello Dennis Angela . Angela yes you'll al always get called that I do yeah. What were you going to say? Er Showaddywaddy. Tell me one more hit with Showaddywaddy? Oh Under the Moon of Love? Brings you a prize. Thank you very much. Can you call for it or what? I'm sorry no I'm afraid I can't. They know your address? Yes. Right we'll send it. Thank you very much Dennis. Bye Angela. Bye. Yes Showaddywaddy of course had the er big hit our local group from Leicester. Erm ah here's an interesting one, How many legs have these got? How many legs have these got? Call us on Nottingham three four three four three four please. And the question is, How many legs have that lot got? That's the question, from Hull we've got Carolyn Holden, Carolyn? Hello. Hello how many legs? The Beatles so it would be eight. All right er er I'll buy that er a prize for you. Okay thanks. Thanks a lot. Bye Bye. Er told you it was a bit crazy. Baysford Ada Kerry what were you going to say? I was going to say the same, the Beatles eight legs. Give me another hit of the Beatles. Oh dear Another hit of the Beatles. No good? I can't think off the top of my head You can't name a hit of the Beatles. No. Oh dear all right okay well thanks for trying. Okay bye . Bye postal one coming up now and for the postal one the question about this record is, What's Christmassy about this? What's Christmassy about this? Answers this time on a postcard please to, The Music Quiz, Linkmail, four one four, Derby, Leicester, Lincoln or Nottingham whichever is closest to you. Postcards to be here by Tuesday of next week on that postcard, What's Christmassy about this? Now the question is, What's Christmassy about that record? Answers on a postcard please to, The Music Quiz, Linkmail four one four, Derby, Leicester, Lincoln or Nottingham whichever is closest to you. Postcards to be hear by Tuesday of next week. What's Christmassy Christmassy about that record? That's the question on the Music Quiz. Er now Who was that er well not who was that but er that's another record from er the Music Quiz competition, What's Christmassy about that record? The same as the previous record. Answers on a postcard by Tuesday. On on Friday the twelfth of November that's a week on Friday at the Royal Concert Hall in Nottingham, a very special concert for those who love the big bands and the vocalists that go with them. The concert is by the Ted Heath Band and it's a gala concert at the Royal Centre in Nottingham on Friday November the twelfth because in attendance will be Mrs Moira Heath, Ted's widow er Jack Parnell will be on drums, Kenny Baker on trumpet and one of the country's great song stylists will be the guest singer. Dennis Lotus who's on the line from his home now. Good afternoon. Hello Dennis. You've had to wait for me I'm afraid. Well that's okay I'm lying in bed so it didn't make any difference. No that's right you were supposed to be here facing me in the studio and you gone and got ill. I know I'm sorry about that. But okay you're going to be all right for the concert a week on Friday? Well I hope so I sincerely hope so I think I shall be though. You must have been spoilt rotten Dennis Lotus, er singing with a band like Ted Heath. How can you sing with any other band after that? Oh I don't know actually it it was it was quite dramatic when I left the band because I went into variety you know and er some of those put bands are something else, cos some of the guys were sort of semi pros like just come from the mine shaft you know. I remember going to one rehearsal up in Durham and I said, Well where's the trumpet player? and they said, Well he hasn't come off shift yet. Oh dear oh dear bit frightening isn't it? Oh yeah but still you know we got through it was great. But it was a marvellous grounding wasn't it Ted Heath ? Ah tremendous I mean it's a wonderful apprenticeship I mean I don't know where the guys go now young fellows Would be suitable by anybody's standard whether locally or by er centrally don't volunteer either because they find working with councillors and local officials particularly in recent years when local authorities have become much more party political and that's been a pity, or the suitable people are too busy running their own businesses. There are of course exceptions of those who are neither councillors nor magistrates er and are prepared to do these jobs, but there aren't very many in relation to er the numbers of people that would be required for this sort of task and there are many other activities for which there are required, like school governors who like helping on various health bodies and er they haven't got the time to do them all, and if they have, they probably aren't suitable, because I have to my Lords that a lord of people who volunteer for these sorts of tasks and I have experience of them aren't people that locally we would like to have sitting on these various bodies and we have to discourage them one way and another. So I have to say that though I at this moment very close to this in the smallest county of England I have also had experience in three other major counties in mainland England er and I have found the same experience the difficulty of finding people who will even be councillors or magistrates, let alone these other jobs that the er that the er Home Secretary seeks to find. My Lords in any case, the best arrangements if we have to have these extra people would be to have a number appointed er but encouraged by th the police authority itself. If the police authority was invited to co-opt people to add to their numbers, making sure that the majority still stayed with the councillors, then I don't think one should have too much objection to it, but if it's to be done in this er this way of central er of central allocation er in the form of the answer to the question to my noble friend Lord Lyle from my noble friend the Minister on the 17th of January which the Noble Lord, Lord Carrigan made reference in which these people are to be er i i it staggers me my Lord, I have to stop for the moment, it staggers me the er the insolence, the insolence of the Home Office in writing down job descriptions and personal profiles for people that are going to function locally. If anybody wants to know whether people are right to perform the local duty Hear! Hear! they don't want to have some er official or or some management consultant who's eager to get a job and get extra money paid for him by a dumb government department, if those people are going to tell us what sort of people we want on that on police authorities, I think it is total insolence and I trust that whatever happens to this Bill that that answer that was given on the 17th of January is removed and replaced by something else, if it has to be replaced at all. My Lords to come back to what it said at the end, and this is what the Noble Lord, Lord Carrigan mentioned, it talks about one of six regional short listing panels. Now six regions in the whole of England and a an and Wales and the Isle of Wight er but were separate from you, er six regions to cover that vast area, how can they know what it's like in Cornwall if the region is run from Bristol? How can two people have a management consultant really know what's going on and what the right sort of people to have for er supplementing the th the police authority are? This is absurd My Lords. When I had occasion to talk to the Home Secretary about this, I asked him about this and he said oh, we want it to be local and I said you mean local not region and he said yes, local and I hope my noble friend who was there will remember that when he comes to decide whether this region things ever going to get a running. I trust, I trust that if there's going to be any question of names coming forward to be a approved locally, not selected, I hope not selected, that they will be er they'll come from the local level at which the police authority actually functions and not from other counties without that particular area and so My Lords, I would suggest er that er the best step to go for is er Lord MacIntosh's Amendment Number Five and his er supplements and I would suggest My Lords that Amendment Number Twenty is resisted by your Lordships because it talks about one half of the members shall be members of a relevant council and I suggest above all My Lords that Amendment Number Twenty Seven is cast into outer darkness. Hear! Hear! My Lords i in the eighteen months I've been privileged to be a Member of Lordships House, I've often asked myself what our functions are. I simply say that on the debates we've had on the Policing Bill, I've learnt what the functions of your Noble House is all about and the speech that's just been made from across the Chamber from me, sums up entirely my views on the matter, and I say to your Lordships House that on the basis of experience as Northern Ireland Secretary when one is a Home Secretary for a province and there's a number of people in this House who've had a job to do including the Noble Lord, The Noble Viscount Whitelaw who set the tone of the way we all proceeded, I accept that, the one of the things we had to do there was bring democracy back to policing and the primary force of policing is taking a long time to do and that here as Home Secretary, everything I learned there was, stop the growing centralisation and the weakening of the police authorities and police force and this Bill does exactly that But now one of the questions I've asked myself and it's the only point because all the points have been made that I really want to ask the Government is what are these appointees for? Whatever numbers there are what are they for? We've had a an expose if that's the right word of the method of appointing them, but from my own experience in my own area, where are they going to come from, what functions are they going to carry out? Well now I've been clearing my mind on the role of the Chief Constable a and of the Police Committee. What is for sure on the basis of a judgment made in nineteen sixty-eight when my Noble friend Lord Callaghan of Cardiff er was Home Secretary, it was made quite clear that no Minister of the Crown can tell a Chief Constable, can tell him he must or mee no or must not keep observation on this place or that. I wonder whether that has been carried out to the letter on one or two occasions in the last ten years. He must or must not prosecute this man or that, nor can any police authority tell him so, the responsibility is on him, he is answerable to the law alone. So whatever else My Lords, these appointees might they're going to do, it will not be telling the Chief Constable what to do. Their knowledge of the area may be slight, it may be greater than perhaps we think, but they will not be able to tell the Chief Constable what to do and that is the glory of our system. It's against the system in Continental Europe, it's against the system I saw in the occupied West Bank when I went out with the police last year and what I saw in South Africa a fortnight ago when I went out w with the police there i i i into the shanty towns and so on. In our experience the Chief Constable is independent and subject to the law. What are these appointees to do? What are they supposed to do? So, I had a look at the powers of the police authority and they're restricted to financial and administrative responsibilities and if I took that argument further, of course the Chief Constable has to take that into account. Now it's on the financial and administrative side that I suspect that the Home Office is concerned about and I believe they've gone the wrong way about it. What I learnt as Home Secretary, unlike myself as Home, Home Secretary, with a police department, with the inspectorate, you having a backing, the local police authorities do not. It is time that they had a backing. If we need people with financial experience and managerial experience, then appoint them to the local to the Police Committee, given them a job to do, they're the ones that are should advise the Chief Constable and the Police Committee as to whether they're spending the right of money on computers and are using it properly, not whether they're using them operationally correctly. So let's sweep aside this idea of appointees because the Home Secretary of the day and his predecessor and the Home Office and the inspectorate feel that the police authorities are not doing a proper job, give them the tools to do a pres proper job. I was talking to someone in the Federation the other day, the Police Federation, trying to tease out this idea a and they said the sort of a permanent Under Secretary. Well that's getting near it, but not members of the police authority who are in and should have the role of non-executive directors. I appeal to the Government to think again, this is going down the wrong road, we do not need these appointed, these appointees appointed by the Home Office and they know how it's done, they know this new method, but there is the list of the greater the good, and if there's of course there will be a bias one way or the other arising out of the very method by which it is done. We do not want this My Lords,th the th the appointed members system will be wrong, it will be against the whole trend of policing as the Noble Lord Harris spelt out from eighteen thirty-five. I appeal to this House to reject th this th this method that the Government is putting forward, it is wrong and that's the function of this House. Hear! Hear! The important debate in my opinion that we shall have this Committee stage and it is for that reason and also because for four-and-a-half years which I think is regarded as a very long time, I was answerable for police affairs er with the Home Secretary in another place, as the Noble Lord, Lord Callaghan will remember, many years ago, it goes back to January nineteen fifty-eight when I became Under Secretary and he was political advisor to the Police Federation and we very rarely disagreed I'm happy to say. I agree with what my Noble Friend Lord Motterstone has said about this and also with what my Noble friend Lord Rippon has said. It is of vital importance to the successful operation of the police that they should have the co-operation of the public and they're much more likely to get it if democratically elected representatives of the public are well represented indeed in the majority at least on the police authority. Without that, public confidence in my opinion is not as good as it should be. I also consider that in view of their experience in the courts, the er the magistrates on the police authorities have a vital part to play. Now My Lords, we have a of amendments on o on this subject, really there is a great scope for confusion. Hear! Hear! And I'm going to make a suggestion to my Noble friend Lord he has heard all the erm views which are critical of the Government's approach and I would not have thought that he had much hope in the division lobby as quite frankly. Therefore I suggest to him that he should give an undertaking to do two things er first that he should do two things. First to give an undertaking that he will consider this matter very fully and in consultation with the Home Secretary between now and the report stage and secondly, that his consultation will extend across Your Lordships House, because I do think that in the light of the discussion which we have already h had there is a consensus emerging among Your Lordships which had will be worth my Noble friend following up. Now having said that in, in er as a general I hope helpful suggestion, may I just make one or two comments about matters on the in the Government amendments which . I agree with the Noble Lord, my Noble friend Lord Motterstone about an Amendment Number Twenty Seven. It is phrased in a most unusual way. If your Lordships would look at sub-section one, the members of the police authority are referred to in section three A er or one B or er one A-B of this Act, shall be persons appointed by the Secretary of State from a list of persons compiled in accordance with an Order made by the Secretary of State. Now I've never seen a provision like that put forward for legislation before. Er Noble Lords er know a good precedent erm y you just but I've never seen one before and erm so far of course perhaps I'm being unfair as there hasn't been the opportunity to do so, but so far we have had no explanation from the Government as to how that list i it is proposed shall be compiled but how ever it is compiled it would run contrary to the principles which my Noble Friend Lord Motterstone and my Noble Friend Lord Rippon have already stated and would stated in all parts of the House. Therefore er I, I do feel that there's a the Government have a very great difficulty over this matter, I'm a keen and sympathetic supporter of the Government as all My Lords know, but on this occasion I do think that we would be entitled to ask them to think a again and to do so on this matter. Hear! Hear! Lords I rise to support the Amendments move by Lord MacIntosh of Haringey which I believe are fundamental to the future policing of this country. May I first say that I am sorry in fact that local authorities and police authorities are being separated in the way clause two proposes. I was brought up in the days of the old Police Acts. As an Assistant Chief Constable I was serving a pr er I'm sorry in the line of a city watch committee in Birmingham. I was subsequently Chief Constable of the combined Sheffield and Rotherham Police Force which whilst a joint committee, still regarded so very much as serving the two separate authorities and finally I was Chief in a Metropolitan country, with a county council and a police committee and I'm quite sure that the police were much more sensitive to the needs and the wishes of their local communities when you were sitting at one of those, not necessarily police committee meetings, but the county council meetings, when they discussed the minutes of the police authority. You certainly knew what they thought about the way you were going about your job as Chief Constable. But I accept and understand that there are some feelings today that the old system dated back from those Victorian days as it did, is in need of reform and should be brought up-to-date. Indeed, the first moves in this direction occurred in 1986 of course, when as Noble Lords will recall the Metropolitan counties or at least their county councils were abolished and police authorities were created for the same areas as freestanding corporate bodies. They precept on the constituent district councils and they receive direct grant from Government and the problems encountered in Derbyshire where the county council reduced the budget approved by the police authority have been quite eliminated and that My Lords is the only reasons that I have been able to trace so far for amending the law as this Bill proposes. Nothing else need to have been done to overcome the current problems which the Home Secretary has been facing in the last year or two. These Metropolitan County Councils erm I beg Your Lordships pardon, these Metropolitan County Authorities are composed entirely of councillors, representative districts and magistrates. I believe they have proved to be responsible bodies, who have worked well with their Chief Constables and the local authorities their members represent and they are proud of the forces they are providing. They differ from the authorities now being proposed in that the local authority representatives currently are clearly in the majority and I have no doubt My Lords that the authorities in consequence see their loyalties lying towards the district councils and the communities that they represent. In turn, the district councils regard the police forces they provide as their police an extremely important factor when considering the reduction of crime. There is considerable evidence to show that it is partnerships between the various departments of local authorities, voluntary agencies and the police working together which are most likely to curb crime and improve the quality of life in c in local communities. If that is to happen however, I believe My Lords that it is essential that local authorities should feel that they have a real contribution to make in the policing of their areas. Equally I believe that local communities too must feel that the police are to them if they are to give the positive help which the police need to successfully detect and prosecute the criminals who prey on them. I suggest that is not likely to happen however if the police authorities come to be regarded as accountable to Whitehall, rather than the Town Hall. Hear! Hear! And I suggest also that it is a very valuable discipline for the police to have to say to themselves when deciding policy matters, I wonder what they will think about this at the Council House. Whitehall is much too remote to create that same sensitivity. I am not persuaded either My Lords that the inclusion of nominated members with special skills will add very much to the police authorities decision making, bearing in mind the experience already there, which has been referred to earlier in this debate. Indeed I wonder whether they will have the time to perform all the many tasks taken on by police authority members, including lay-visiting of police cells attending national committees on a number of subjects or local consultative bodies, there's a whole list of duties and responsibilities which members of police authorities undertake. Certainly the minimum of one-and-a-half days per month envisaged by the Home Office as being all that will be required, it seems to me to be very wide of the mark. I agree with the Lord of Aberdale that it is vital for the elected representatives on the police authority to be clearly seen to be in the driving seat of the committee. It is a view I believe which is held by everyone connected with policing at local level and additionally, the continuation of the tripartite system with its essential checks and balances on the activities of the three parties involved and My Lords that is the real importance and value of the tripartite system that depends on the local authorities being seen to be in the driving seat. I therefore support Amendment Numbers Five, Eight and Eleven moved by Lord MacIntosh of Haringey. Hear! Hear! My Lords, I very much hope that my Noble friend Lord Fellows, the Minister will feel able to er take the advice of my Noble friend Lord Wrenton er for a particular er and it is not quite the same reason as his. Er My Lords I do not see within this of amendments the answers that we want, I see two or three narrow misses. We have to answer an er your Lordships are in danger of getting into the mood of treating this debate as a charge with a single issue to be decided on a single voter. We have actually four questions and three subordinate questions which we were addressing and only one of them has been resolved so far and that is whether the Chairman of the Police Authority should be appointed by the Home Secretary or by the Authority and we are I think all have to agree that it should be by the latter. But My Lords the next question is should the membership of the Authority be as it traditionally has been or should it contain some members recruited from a wider constituency. Now the Noble Lord, Lord Merlyn Reece and one or two other have argued against that, but I think on the Your Lordships would feel that there should be a wider constituency, that being so should these recruits be secured by co-option, by appointment, or by some other way. My Lords, er the principle of co-option has been described as by a number of Your Lordships as an extension of principal of democracy, but I call on my experience not as er of a year as er Minister for the Police under my Noble Friend Lord Whitelaw, but my three years as Minister for the Prison Service er and er in that er service, there was erm in each prison a Board of Prison Visitors and I observed during that time that the membership of the prison population was becoming increasingly black, but that the membership of the er Boards of Prison Governors was remaining stubbornly white and I er put it, I made it then that I thought there should be something to redress this balance er the system is as it were a supervised co-option, the local er Board makes a proposal and the Minister approves or doesn't, but also I had to refuse five successive of proposed co-options of white members to an all-white prison board for a prison which was predominantly black in population because it was alleged there were no suitable black people available. My Lords,i in effect I had a Power of Appointment and in effect it was very badly needed. Er I therefore think that there should be a process by which the Secretary of State can be involved in getting people on to the police authority, but My Lords should those erm er people be in a position at any time to be the majority or the predominant voice on the authority. Now the Amendment that has been proposed for this and and the Noble Lord, Lord erm Amendment erm I think it's Eleven, yes, er proposes something of this nature, but it doesn't like co-option. My Lords, I don't think co-option is satisfactory under these circumstances er I think my erm th the Noble Lord has a good route er has a good number but a bad route and that my Noble Friend is in the position to propose a good route er if he will get the right number. I don't see that in any combination of these Amendments, I very much hope that my Noble Friend will come back at the report stage with our grateful thanks for having found a process which will produce a body of co of o of appointed members on the police authorities of a position to influence but not to determine his policy and that should be an a position, I agree with my Noble Friend, Lord Motterstone subordinate to that of the magistrates. My Lords, I er apologise first of all that I was not able to hear some of the earlier speeches in this Debate erm but it does seem to me a most interesting Debate and I have to confess that I always become slightly uneasy er when the great and the good, and I suppose we should collectively cast ourselves in that role of being the great and good of the establishment are all of one view and I wonder whether it is necessarily right and so I begin to question er whether your Lordships enthusiasm for many of these amendments and their attack upon the Government's proposals is necessarily as soundly based as we might think if we just listen to casually to it all. I think I think My Lords, I think my Lords if I may say so he's only been f here for half of the Debate, under those circumstances since he can't have heard all the arguments, it's a bit rich for him to call us casual. Hear! Hear! My Lords, I didn't mean no offence in, in that matter. but, but I think we should be just a little careful in accepting this cavalry charge as it has been described too easily. Let me put it this way, and I think this may please the Noble Lord MacIntosh, there are moments when this House is in danger of being too conservative. I think that we should accept th that this island in which we live is in effect becoming smaller day-by-day, as it is becoming more and more open er we should accept that its population is becoming perhaps with the assistance of a little advice from myself from time-to-time, rather more mobile than it used to be and I must say that we should I think all accept and I'm sure we do that criminals do not have any particular respect for local authority boundaries er indeed the existence of the motorway system er despite the M25 does encourage mobility of crime and criminals to a very great extent. I think too that we should reflect upon who it is that receives the blame er when policing falls below the standards which we would all think appropriate. We seldom read in the tabloid press local police force fails er we may frequently read in the local press in the tabloid press rather, that the Home Secretary has failed and yet what we seem to be saying is that we believe that all the responsibility should be local, all that responsibility, all the blame when things go wrong should go to the Home Secretary. I have some sympathy for the Home Secretary in these matters, he is not an Officer of State who over-occupies the position for whom I normally have a great deal of sympathy I must confess, er but on this occasion I do have some sympathy. I think we tend to forget that we are willing to trust the Lord Chancellor and the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, who in recent years has most usually doubled as the Chairman of the Conservative Party a very dubious appointment no doubt in the minds of many er of er your Lordships House. Those too have been doubled and we are we trust them to appoint the magistrates upon whom we praise such responsibility and on whom we shall have such great praise. Er we trust if the post is doubled in the way it has frequently been in recent years and indeed was in my case, the Chancellor of the Duchy in brackets also as the Chairman of the Conservative Party to maintain the dignitary of the magistracy to make sure that there is a firm balance amongst magistrates who are appointed. In terms of er political views, or even those who have no political views, of ethnic make-up and everything of this kind and yet now it seems that at a time when our police forces above all, need to move into the present day and prepare themselves for the challenges of the crime and the criminals at the end of this century and into the next century, we seem to have some misgivings about giving the Home Secretary the powers which are placed in this Bill. I do not believe those powers would be of use My Lords I er take the view that they would not have been abused by past Home Secretaries, no not by men like the late Tutor Reed or the Noble Lord Jenkins or the Noble Lord Callaghan, they would not be abused today by my Right Honourable Friend Mr Howard, I doubt if they would be abused by Mr Blair should he at some time become Home Secretary and I think we're becoming slightly attached to an artificial argument that somehow or the other there is great respect for the local authorities, but which is not extended to the National Institutions of Government and to the Home Office and the Home Secretary. I doubt if that is so I think to some extent we may be in what we are saying and doing, feeding the current which says that nobody in national politics could conceivably be honest or decent or competent in any way whatsoever, that to be a Member of the House of Commons or to be a Member of the Government is somehow to have the mark of put upon them. I think we would be wise to reflect a little longer and to think that perhaps the Government is not so far wrong in what it is saying and I have to say finally My Lords that I never in my public life, or indeed in my private life have met anybody who has said to me that their attitude towards their local police force has been in any way influenced by the fact that the members of the police authority were or weren't democratically elected. I think that is an absolute fantasy and I think that it is er perhaps going too far in our denigration of members of local authorities to think their attitude towards their police force would be in any way changed, were some of the members to be appointed from a list which had been drawn up by the Home Secretary. I think if I may say so My Lords, we're becoming slightly over-excited. My Lords, before the Noble Lord sits down, perhaps I could ask him to remember, he was saying s how, how splendidly the Lord Chancellor and the Chancellor of the Duchy appointed magistrates and I entirely agree, but they appoint them, not from a list that they've constructed themselves, they appoint them because the keepers of the roles for respective counties propose names to them which they very carefully er selected by the very special and an an and complicated process of of er of er of of examination of people whose names come forward, I find in my case that only one-third of the people whom I interview for this purpose with my Committee er are the ones which I've I propose. That's quite different from Amendment Number Twenty Seven. I, I take My Noble Friend's point indeed, but I think nonetheless er that er I have to say that there is a degree that we put it this way of understanding of how the process works rather more informally than the manner in which my Noble Friend has put it. My Lords, I right in support I rise and support of Amendments Five, Eight and Eleven in the name of Lord MacIntosh of Haringey. As a Magistrate I think I should advise the Noble Lord, Lord Tebbit, that most crime is indeed local based, despite the prevalence of bicycles in this upwardly mobile society of ours. As a member of a police authority, I welcome the fact the Government has withdrawn its earlier ill-judged proposal, that authority Chairman should be appointed by Home Sec by the Home Secretary and that the size of authority should be standardised but the other main thrust of the Government's proposal remains, namely the balance and composition of authorities and these points are of the gravest constitutional importance. Firstly balance, how can it be right that in future authorities,future authority should be evenly balanced between elected and non-elected members. As My Noble Friend Lord Allen has already pointed out today, suppose two elected members are ill or on holiday, and natural enough assumption taken over the years, are important decisions to be taken by that authority in such a situation? It seems far to reconcile with any concept of a local democracy and what exactly is wrong with the present composition of authorities. I sit on an authority they are very tiresome at times they make mistakes at times rather like Governments My Lords but at the end of the day that surely is what democracy is all about isn't it? I'm not against the concept of co-opted members and I believe that they could add a useful dimension to any authority's work, but apart from the obligatory brace of businessmen and I accept the Right Honourable and Noble Viscount Lord Whitelaw's phrase and I quote powerful reference to a broad approach and new ideas and a fight against crime, but apart from the the brace er, er of such business people, they should surely come from representative sections of those communities which the authorities serve. For example I can see a good case for a local headmaster being a member of the authority, representing educational concerns or for some representations say from significant ethnic groups within the area, but these can be identified and appointed by the authorities themselves, whose local knowledge will lead to far more accurate selection than Whitehall or Whitehall inspired sources. Perhaps unsurprisingly the Government remains coy about firstly who really is going to pick these appointees for consideration by the Home Secretary? Is it to be the Lord Lieutenant of the County? Is it to be the Chairman of the Local Chamber of Commerce? Is it to be er a local representative of the C B I? And secondly, and very much wrapped up in the same point with this, they're also coy about the sort of people they're looking for. It really won't do to talk airily about businessmen and business women as if emergency pools of these super-executives exist all over the country, ready to plug the numerous gaps left by the incompetence of Noddy and know-nothing councils that are councillors and magistrates. Erm I must confess to doubting whether such a pool of talent exists and I share the views er of the Noble Lord, Lord Motterstone who in a very powerful and commonsense speech made this point an and a number of other ones, but I have to say that what I do think exists is the temptation to create posts for friends of the Government, a process of which has been going for far too long and I mem and I wonder if er members on the other side would defend this position as my Noble Friend Lord Allen said earlier, quite sincerely if, say, another party were in power before when such a time arrives it will then be of little avail for them to run around complaining, for they will have sown the seeds of their own dissatisfaction. Hear! Hear! My Lords, er, er, er no doubt that all of your Lordships have throughout the last hour and forty minutes felt a great deal of sympathy with the Noble Earl Lord Hear! Hear! since he came to our Lordships House with some very and has had to sit this thing ever since then with one exception er to speeches deeply and seriously critical er of the proposals er coming from Members of your Lordships House mostly with vast experience of the subject matter former Secretary's er er former Chief Constable er and er so many others and I arise only to put one point to you if my Noble Friend decides to resist these amendments, it seems to me I may be wrong but it seems to me overwhelmingly clear that they will be carrying against him and they will be put into the Bill which will be very considerably altered and amended, some of your Lordships may think improved, but certainly drastically altered and I wonder whether er my Noble Friend thinks that really would be helpful from the point of view either of the pr future progress of the Bill, or the position of the Government. Er I very much hope so er that my Noble Friend will recognise what does seem to be the prevailing view in this House on, on your all quarters and all parties and er and will indicate that on most of the points of controversy, not just the but most of them, the Government is prepared to think again, he may even feel that it might be prudent to defer further consideration of the committee stage of this Bill er after today's sitting er er for a little time and when discussions could and should take place between those who hold different views and er his own very considerable power conciliation er could be used. I therefore put it to him that he has really now er a definite choice, he can seek to resist most of these amendments and I haven't a slightest doubt they'll be put into the Bill er the Bill will be drastically altered thereby er and when it goes back to another place nobody quite knows er wh what will happen to it, or he can use his very considerable powers of conciliation er by taking a little time for further consideration. At any rate some of these points I speak as one who was as your Lordships know is on the whole a fairly loyal supporter of the Government. Hear! Hear! but I I I I'm very much obliged too. See that I carry your Lordships er and therefore for that very reason do not like to see the Government going in for a whole series of embarrassing defeats er and erm getting into very grave difficulties with an important Bill and I therefore arise only to ask my Noble Friend er at the last minute would like to consider very seriously erm a conciliatory reply of whether accepting er the amendments with er or er or some of them er with er er er view to their reconsideration or asking those who propose them to defer them from to from today's sitting, there's still further sittings ahead, but whether he was prepared to ask them to give him a chance to reflect without incurring serious Government defeats to reflect further on whether further amendments cannot and should not be made. My own humble advice to him and I d do it humility, because he's a very experienced Minister,be very wise and I think serve the interest of the Government in which he's a member, if he has opted the latter course. My Lord Minister Minister. My Lords,M My Lords er th the er I think it might be helpful if I were to make a an intervention at this moment, it wouldn't stop my Noble Friends er from making it er er an intervention later, later on. My Lords erm I was deeply appreciative of er the my Noble Friend, Lord Boyd-Carpenter insofar as he said that he felt sympathy for me. I think that was the first person who said and I wasn't aware that anyone else felt it But the fact that my Noble Friend was kind enough to express it er I found was er nectar for myself. My Lords I I'm to say that this is of course erm a very controversial area and it is quite frank that it should be controversial too. When my Noble Friend er produced the Bill of the first er er case and it went er came to secondary reading, your Lordships did explain in no uncertain terms of the various matters about which your Lordships were concerned. Er my Noble my Right Honourable Friend did take account of that and he did agree that hereafter the appointment of the Chairman should not be an appointment made by the Home Secretary, but that shou he should be one made by the full authority and that has I'm glad to say met with with approval. There was also then great concern that the appointment of erm er of independent members apparently was seen as a way of my Right Honourable Friend or anyone who then er held the office of er Ho Home Secretary would actually put in his own . That was a very real concern and my Right Honourable Friend has er tried to allay that concern by saying all right, er we we will have er an independent body of people who will undertake this selection and they will er off offer a short list o of candidates er to the Home Secretary to appoint, but the Noble Lord, Lord Callaghan er of Cardiff said that er that this was taking powers through the s to the Home Secretary increasing his powers enor enormously and actually of course if anyone is going to be appointed as an independent member, somebody's actually got to do the appointing. Doesn't matter whether it's the er whether it's the person who does the short list or whether it's the Home Secretary himself or whether it's the other members of the authorities such as the Noble Lord, Lord MacIntosh would prefer in his amendment. Somebody's actually got to do the appointing if you have the, the er er er i i independent members and I don't think it's u is unreasonable for my Right Honourable Friend to say that the Home Secretary should do that er provided that he is not seen to have been taking an overtly political view. Quite frankly My Lords, if there are forty-one constabularies throughout the c country e excluding the Metropolitan Police and the City of London Police, any for instance fifty people were a applied and they may well apply because plenty of people have already done so, you would be talking about a list of some two thousand people it's quite impossible to think that my Honourable Friend would know all these two thousand people therefore carefully select party hats who might themselves not actually have applied anyhow. So I think that what he has done is to try and meet the concerns which your Lordships have have expressed er i in second reading My Lords er I did think if I might say so with the greatest of respect for the Noble Lord, Lord Harris of Greenwich whom I admire en enormously and not for er only for his views which erm depending upon what the views are er that it depends upon my extended admiration but also of course for the way in which he always put it. We did get through some pretty hot language, erm he did say that this would destroy the tripartite system and he quoted me and said that I said it was a system which was the end of the world. That's perfectly true, it is a system of the end of the world and my only consc my only complaint is that I don't think that what my Right Honourable Friend is suggesting is in fact a destruction of the tripartite system. He said it would be politicise police forces and he said that this vote would be a momentous decision because it w th the Bill will do grievous damage to policing in this country and we must remove the repugnant decisions from the Bill, but I alw I did think actually that was fairly extravagant language. What are we actually talking about? We are talking about the tripartite system, the Home Secretary, the Police Authority and the Chief Constable. That as it were milkman's stool with three legs and each of them has a certain amount of power and it is a question of the adjustment of that power and it is not the of the power to my Right Honourable Friend, the Home Secretary and yet when things go wrong, and they do, in police forces and in local auth police authorities, what happens, people turn round to the Home Secretary and say what are you going to do about it. I had it the other day over s some occasion when I had to go on some t television and the reporter said what's the Home Secretary gonna do about it. Well actually this is a matter for the police authorities and despite the fact that the Noble Lord, Lord Callaghan had said this is a centralising measure and er and a number of other Noble Lords have, have said er s similar things, what my Right Honourable Friend is trying to do is to give down to local authorities more power, more responsibility and not to keep that r responsibility to himself. Now My Lords I realise that some of your Lordships say well that's not gonna happen, but if if I could come to one other point My Lords, where I think there is fairly, fairly universal a agreement and that is on the whole smaller organisations work better and if you have a police authority for instance of thirty or forty people, that's not a very handy body of people to work with and if it's smaller it is better. Well quite obviously if you are going to curtail something like that, some of those who had been on the police authorities will now find that they are not on the police authority and therefore that causes understandable anxiety and therefore rumpus. If on top of that you say well let us have some independent people to some others who were elected councillors will find that they are not also on the police authority and that causes problems. But My Lords the idea that independent people is news nonsense for the last thirty years so we've had independent people on the police authorities by the of the magistrates and there's nothing new in that. What we were trying to say is there is actually a place and my Right Honourable Friend thinks that there is and indeed so do I, for people to contribute to the problem of policing in their locality who haven't necessarily for one reason or another and my Noble Friend Lord Whitelaw said, decided not to erm be on the police authority, maybe they haven't had time, maybe there hasn't been their, their particular but nevertheless they do know and they do care about their locality and they have got a er er a contribution to make and we think that that would actually improve the local the police authorities, provided that they are not in an overwhelming position and that is the reason why we've suggested that eight erm t er, er, er o of a police authority of sixteen, eight should be councillors in the majority, five should be independents and three should be er er er magistrates and My Lords and then of course the complaint was ah, but then some people may not be properly represented and the number ought to be larger. My Right Honourable Friend has taken that point and said yes, he agrees, that there will be circumstances when the police authority ought to be larger erm er and er that he would agree to that. If you accept the amendment of er Noble Lord, Lord MacIntosh, he would say it set an upper and a lower limit o o of the size of erm o of police authority and the chances are then that the number will gradually i inflate so that it's always the highest number, that is that is obtained. My Lords er the the er th the point r really abou about all this I think is a fairly, a fairly simple one that we are agreed I think in general, that police authorities are better if they are smaller and the real point that is concerning er N Noble Lords is whether my Right Honourable Friend i is taking too much er er power to use an unpleasant word and I think actually a wrong word er i in the appointment of those who have been selected by a different and an independent system. Noble Lord, Lord Callaghan says and I might say so, slightly mischievously, well after all he's going to appoint the appointers and going to make the short list, short list for the Right My Right Honourable Friend to appoint, but of course somebody's got to appoint the appointers and er that would be done by the by my Right Honourable Friend, but that doesn't mean to say for goodness sake that they're in his pocket. My Lords erm I'm, I'm in a, a difficulty over this, because I think that er I er er your Lordships much. The difficulty is I want to try and be helpful erm er er my Right Honourable Friend has, has made a number of conceptions and we have er put down in my name a number of these amendments to the Bill in order to try and meet those very concessions and those the anxieties which your Lordships have have expressed. I equally don't want to sail into something that is er pretty undesirable and as my Noble Friend Lord Boyd-Carpenter says if we do that then almost certainly I don't know I may be completely wrong, I've got enormous faith in the my Right Honourable from my Noble Friend the Chief Whip and even more f faith in all my friends beh behind me whom I know will er go in, in the right direction because they think so erm superb, but My Lords er I would obviously like to see whether there is any way in which we can bridge this divide. Now I dunno whether it is possible, it may well be that it isn't possible er my Right Honourable Friend has er certain views and er and er as my Noble Friend Lord erm Lord Rippon said, it's very difficult to make erm major er very difficult to make radical alterations without actually causing some anxiety somewhere. Now, erm my Right Honourable Friend is very keen to see these alterations which we ha which he has proposed erm become erm to to take effect, because he thinks that they are right and because a great deal of effort has gone into get it right. Equally, My Lords it is very important that we should try and see if there are ways in which we can meet the anxieties of Noble Lords. Now it seems to me in some respects the gulf is pretty wide and therefore can only do that if Noble Lords are good enough to try and sort of meet the divide. I'm quite happy to see if we can what we can do, I can't guarantee that my Right Honourable Friend will take a different view, but I'm content to see what we can do and report if your Lordships think that that is suitable, but if we were to do that My Lord, I think it would mean erm er it would mean that all these amendments which are grouped together should not in fact be, be put t to the vote, I mean that means ever er er all your Lordships because I don't think it would be very fair if I were to say that I would move mine and the Noble Lord, Lord MacIntosh were c to come along and move his amendment and mine meanwhile has gone down the drainpipe and I don't think that that would be particularly funny, but the Noble Lord, Lord MacIntosh I'm sure wouldn't do such a dastardly thing like that! I hope! Er, er so I I I'm prepared to try and see if if we can meet the anxieties or at least some of them. I can't give any guarantee whatsoever that we will, but at least we will try and if that were to meet with your Lordships approval, then er I would be content to go on that basis. Hear! Hear! My Lords er that clearly is a very serious contribution to the Debate which has to be taken very seriously indeed, er an but I before er responding directly to the er er invitation from the er Minister, I, I just want to summarise very briefly what I think has been the outcome o of this Debate. We have had erm apart from er the er er apart from the Minister himself, we have had fourteen speeches. Of those fourteen speeches er er er only the Noble Lord, Lord Tebbit who was only here for half of the Debate has supported er er the idea that there should not be a local authority majority on the Debate. In on the erm er the police authority the Noble Viscount Lord Whitelaw was silent on this issue. Er on the issue as to whether there should be co-option or appointment of additional members er only again Lord Tebbit, Lord Whitelaw and Lord Payton tacitly because of his amendments er have supported appointment rather than co-option. In every other case, Noble Lord er, er, erm there were then three Noble Lords, er Lord Wrenton, Lord Elton and Lord Boyd-Carpenter who urged this question on the Government er Lord er Elton specifically er er er preferred appointment to co-option er but he also preferred erm a local authority majority on, on the poli police authority. If I, if I may then just ex expand that very very briefly, er we have er er Lord, Lord Whitelaw's silent on the local authority majority but in favour of appointment. Lord Payton in favour of a local authority majority, but moving amendments er in favour of appointment. Er Lord Allen in favour of co-option and a local authority majority. Lord Harris in favour of a er a local authority majority er and co-option. Lord Rippon in favour of a local authority majority and co-option. Lord Callaghan in favour of a local authority majority and co-option. Lord Motterstone in favour of a local authority majority and co-option. Lord Mervyn Rees in favour of a local authority majority and corrupt and co-option. Lord Knights in favour of a local authority majority and co-option. Er Lord Elton in favour of a local authority majority. Lord Tenby in favour of a local authority majority and c and co-option. My Lords, under those circumstances it is quite clear that the thinking which the Minister has offered us has got to cover those particular issues Hear! Hear! It has got to be explicit that the issue of a local authority majority and of co-option rather than the appointment is on the agenda for discussion between now Hear! Hear! and er report stage and I invite the Minister to confirm that er that is that is the position and that the Government will not enter any discussions with a closed mind on those issues. Hear! Hear! My Lords, I think if I might say so that the Noble Lord, Lord MacIntosh is being slightly unfair and slightly hard over that. What I have said that I would do is to consider what your Lordships have said to see if there is any way in which we can meet the problem. Noble Lord, Lord MacIntosh was going to say, well now you've got to do this and you've gotta to that and you've got to do the other. You can't start like that, I'm prepared to consider the matters which have been suggested by your Lordships th this afternoon to see if there is a way in which we can er meet that point. Of course I heard I've heard all the arguments about co-opting, but I'll tell the Noble Lord, Lord MacIntosh this that who's going to do the co-opting, those who are already on the police authority The bad news they haven't arrived so, and that rather, it still Yes. it still ties my hands, hands somewhat I mean because I received no further communication from anyone so Erm I don't know if this would help, because, you know I'm, I, I said that. Ooh a D S S book. Yes that erm you know they wouldn't Yeah. actually give some money, well they've sent this, they've sent this letter so still got a D S S book going so No this is the o yeah, this is the one that they sent you see? When I Yeah. came to you and said, you know they won't send any money because I haven't got a note, but because you was a bit, you know, doctor's Yeah. a bit suspicious. Well you've got a book, so you can still actually er Yeah, but you see they sent this on the twenty ninth of June Yeah. but the thing is this doctor's note runs out yesterday, Mm. see, so I can't really cash any more, you know? Why not? Well because I haven't had a doctor's note and it makes it a bit difficult if I cash it. But they would have only given you a book for Right. that long, if you had a valid doctor's note for that time, surely? No, no. You have to get another one, you see. It doesn't work like that. I mean that's some proof,I mean I It's proof that someone's issued a book to you, yeah. I'm not quite, has, is th it gives no indication of why it's been issued, that's the catch. Well, see these are the ones that I sent in and I didn't think they would, they would agree with because they were duplicates unless they found the original. Mm. Do you follow? No they won't accept duplicates as a rule. Well they put those in anyway, so unless they found the original ones, That's, that's two months and that keep that keeps you covered for a while, doesn't it? But you see the thing is, that's true but sometimes the way they deal with it, they deal with it say eight weeks, so which makes it what? About sevent Yeah, he's just put yeah he's just put depression. I mean how do you actually feel at the moment? Well, I feel better than I was, but I've been at Haywoods Heath which was a religious community Hmm. and er I feel, I feel as though I'm generally Mm. Aye. What about sleep patterns? That's fine. And mood during the day? That's fine, not too bad. See if you're actually better medically Mm. you actually become fit for work. Right. Ah in which case it'd be wrong for me to say that you're not fit for work anyway . Right. So er I mean if you, if you, you know, if you do feel you're looking better I mean you look, you know Right. fairly okay. Right. So I mean if you, if that's how you actually feel then what we should really do is to sign a note at some stage saying you are fit for work on a certain date. Mhm. And er then what will happen is the benefit you receive will change from Right. erm sickness benefit or invalidity benefit depending Mm. how long you've been off for, to unemployment benefit, if you're eligible. So I, and, and to be honest I think that's what we ought to do at this stage, Mhm. if you remain fairly well. Now obviously Mm. if how you are Mm. changes, Mhm. You know it's a different ball game Mm. and then we have to reassess you and say you're medically Mm. unfit and then we sign you off. But then Mm. also we ought to be treating it, are you not actually having any active treatment at the moment are you? No. No. You see you see I don't mean to be erm rude or anything but as I'm sure you understand you can't really you know, you know write a note without my doctor's notes, because you see I, I think if I get a job at the moment I think it'll just, it won't last No. Well I, I I could write a note on my own assessment, Right yes but I have got nothing to back up, it's a bit like before you have the notes? Oh I can, oh yes I can, I could Yeah. write a note treating Right. you as my own patient Right. on a, on how I find you at a particular time. Right. But what I can't do is to look back and saying you've been, you are like this now but we know from your previous history, that this Right. is the course of events and perhaps it'd be reasonable to wait longer before we say you're fit for work. And I haven't got much evidence You can't do that until you get the notes can you? Well it's a bit i well I, well I could do but it's a bit tricky I mean to some Right. extent I'd be happy to keep you going for a bit longer. Right. There's no . What I don't really want to do is to sign you off sick long term, without really knowing I mean Mhm. what's been happening before, what's been said Yeah. to you, what's been given Yeah. to you. Yeah. Exactly what sort of thing you've been in. And you can say some of Yeah that's, that's what I to me but I d I still, I don't get the same feeling from you as perhaps I might with medical notes, if you see what I mean? Well I, I, no I agree Yeah. with you precisely Yeah. I think that you can't really make a decision until you have that literature, you can't. It's tricky. But what I'm, what I'm, is because you've got this order book Yeah. and these, you know things from the benefits er agency, because if I cash any more it makes it so I mean Yeah. what, you see I don't know when these notes are going to come up Yeah. you see? Well what I And I need this cash . Yeah. I mean what I suggest we do Yeah. given you're, given how you are at the moment, which Right. is probably not one hundred percent medically fit, Yeah. is to actually give you another note for the moment for say Right. erm where are we now? We're July, so if I say another six weeks, that'll actually get Right. us through to the first week of September. Right, so these And then you can and then have another chat. And if you are fairly okay then we'll probably say well we'll sign you off at this stage anyway. But Mm. at least we'll have the notes to back up what we're doing, and I Right. think that'd be sensible. It'll Right. keep you ticking over for the moment which is what you need. Yeah, yeah. And it'll erm, and I think that'll be reasonable. Yeah. Is that okay? That seems okay for now, yeah but It's a sort of compromise when you decision but it is difficult to know which way to go, when you're actually up you know, I, I wouldn't say you're a hundred percent but I wouldn't say Right. there's anything too much wrong with you either. Right. Now what I've got to put a diagnosis on this, so if I write depression cos that has been the problem hasn't it? Right, yes. Yeah, is that fair enough? Yeah. And if I put six weeks, now this'll overlap slightly with the present one, that doesn't matter the D S S don't give two hoots from that point of view, and that'll then run out six weeks, which is about the beginning of September Right. exactly. But I, you know, I agree with this, thanks for the, writing the note, but That's okay. erm especially that when you get those er notes from Haywoods Heath, Yeah. and then see what you think. But I mean I don't want to stay on the sickness but it is Yeah. invalidity. It's Sickness Benefit on your Mm. Income Support. So it's Mm. exactly the same amount of money Yeah, oh yeah. So you won't gain any extra, yeah. not Unemployment Benefit,ordinary Income Support Mhm. but, you know, when you get those notes if you could look at them and see what you think Mm. Yeah I think they'll be informative. Mm. Oh yes, yes . Yeah. It's a question of getting them back, they haven't long gone but er Right. they will return, complete I hope. Okay . Right. is that there's no point in, in er me going to work if it's going to just, you know, work out No. so I'm just, you know, unemployed again. Yeah. But as I say, when you get those notes, if you really, you know, try and understand them so you know And if I can read the other doctor's handwriting. Yes. Anyhow we'll sort that out in September, I'm sure they'll be there. We sent in an urgent request three Yes. weeks ago for those and I'd be very surprised if they don't soon Apparently they should be on their way because Nottingham was er They should be. Yeah. They should be. Alright, thanks very much . Right okay, take care of yourself. discussions with Richard Robert. Robert sorry here you go. That'll come out on there you see and I'll get tell myself off. That's probably cos you know. We've gotta design redesign this cos everybody off. Oh sorry apologize to the last guy he didn't. Richard while I'm having oh It's that again. That was a Richard. Cut. Robert while I'm having a look. Yeah edit that. While I'm having a look at this just a quick glance through erm there's the er range of products that we print design publish, we don't sell them, for our clients. Erm if you'd like to have a quick glance through them. Yep. Just get your feel for it. Yep. I'll have I'll have hopefully described them as as much as I can over the erm over the phone but er and of course the brochure. Did what did you glean for the erm company brochure? Very professional. Mhm. Er forward going. Always looking to, how can I put this, upgrade things is it like you know. Pardon? All these looking to upgrade things you know. Er going forward. Okay. Oh sure. Er you know and Yeah yeah. Four years ago the erm er two thirds of those products weren't in existence. Yeah. Erm the law has helped us. Legislation helped us with the medical practice booklets. Yeah. The law also helped us allowing a lot of professional companies to advertise which they couldn't. You know like accountants solicitors doctors chemists. None of those could advertise So in so it's broadened the number of er prospective advertisers that we can approach. Yeah. Totally new this industry so Erm I have to say that most of the people that come to us have never been involved in advertising. Yeah. One of the things I am obviously gonna have to look at is the what you've done in the last two or three years because traditionally erm we wouldn't ask van drivers to come along and see us . Yeah well there's there's But there's there had to have been there's a good reason for that. Yeah right. Well I wouldn't Well I I would well I'd feel I'd feel more comfortable with people at least who have made an attempt to er to do something to earn a living. Well I've never signed on the dole so You're trying to avoid that. Yeah. I haven't although a lot of people would say I was silly for not having done. Because I probably lost out on a lot of money. Well I well I tell a lie I tried it once. Mhm. Er in between sales Aha. jobs. Er and I was told that I wasn't entitled to any money anyway because I was self-employed and I only paid the stamp . Yes well that's exactly what they said to me. And er you know I thought well Thoroughly annoyed me because I'd er every year when I'd paid my tax I'd pay my er national insurance and as far I'm concerned that should've entitled me. Yeah yeah. Oh you can income support but it's not why should I be any different. I think it's something that they probably have to look at fairly seriously because er I think you do the Government a a lot of favours by going self-employed. Of course you do. You take self take the employment figures down for a start. Yeah. Er yeah I mean that that's never been discussed by anybody or know or Mm. anything or it's never published that if you go self-employed No er I I I have er if you're out of work you're it takes small businesses of. Erm and one of the things I could've done was to em er become a salaried employee of my own company which was a limited company but I paid myself as a consultant. Yeah rather than a director. Yeah. And nobody told me that. And you're supposed to know all about the bits of paper that they issue. It does annoy me. Anyway that's got that's put the world to rights hasn't it? Yeah. Okay er Robert. There you are I got it right for Yeah I'll confuse now call me Paul That's right yeah. Thank you. Erm well first of all er I'll I'll come back to that. First of all the company is very serious about taking up references. Yep. And they ask for four for a very good reason. At least they want to get a cross-section. If may be one doesn't respond at least we've got a good er Yeah. And quite honestly if two give er a good references but I would I would have to address that once we decide Right. er what the outcome of this is going to be today. Er now let's go back over oh first of all let me explain what the idea is Hello. It is indeed. Hi Lynn. Oh that's fine okay. Yeah very kind of you call because some people don't. Lynn than thanks very much. Bye bye. Yes we get a lot of people who don't turn up at least a a phone call is er Right. Must make a note of that. Yes I wanted to erm outline what the you know the purpose of these discussions today er so that we can get to the point where we can get into er get into more detail. Erm first of Er Did I speak to you originally? You did yeah. Okay. So I would have heard enough on the phone er because I haven't got my original notes here, I would have heard enough on the phone er Robert to have suggested that it was a good idea to get face to face. So there's a lot of the discussions have taken place and also I would have briefed you a bit er Yeah. on on what it was. Self employed commission only. I would have said at forty one you know you er you're still probably young enough to get a salaried job but we decided that it might be worth er you trying this avenue. The brochure also would have outlined a number of other aspects in in more detail than I could give you on the phone. And today really is er decision day that er first of all we'll get one of the hurdles out of the way whether you and I think that this is a good You think yeah. er way for you to be er earning some money. I know that a lot of money can be earned. I've experienced it myself and there are a plenty of top earners in our company who er arrive in a Porsche and er and er things like that. So some big money earners. Erm once that hurdle's out of the way if it is a hurdle er once once we've agreed on that er the next decision we'll make is on er which company you and I think that you're more be comfortable the environment in which you er we operate. Because we all do the same thing. A hundred and seventy five I think was the last count that we have around the U K all selling advertising. And the only difference between them er one group and another is may be the pitch is slightly different and the benefits. Otherwise, oh and the pricing is slightly different, Yeah. otherwise it's er er all the same. We're doing all the same. Certainly the opportunities to earn all the same er er er are the same across all companies. All right opportunities. Yep. Erm so that you know it's it's a luxury that I have. I'm looking it's not one job for one person in one company today. It is I'm looking for five er may be for each of those companies so that's thirty people I could be looking for. I'm not but I you know could be. Yeah could be. But I want somebody in every one of those companies. So there's not a problem. So you're not in competition with anybody else. Right. Erm and the other aspect of course is when. We do like people to give us a commitment on the spot on on all of those three counts. Er when we have a training course for all of these companies. There's no way we're going to send people out er to sell advertising er particularly as the majority of people have never done that before. Yep. Certainly it's not in your background and it's not in most people's I have to say. Erm and er er we don't hide behind reject letters. If I don't think you're suitable and if I don't think this is for you I'll I'll say You'll tell me yeah. Straight up. I'll be up front with you . Yep. Erm I also want and because I You'll say well I'll give the commitment. If you say if you don't think this is for you you've got to tell me that. Erm I don't go into big sales pitch you know to bring you into the company. What I will do is emphasize what we you know where you can go in terms of money- wise. And the other thing is is when. Now accordingly to your application form here er you you've no problem you can start yeah. All right. And I will give you that commitment as well. I'll say, Fine you want to start with us you want to start in this company here's your date for your course fully expensed. Travel hotel bills everything. Then out on to an assignment or with somebody in the field for a couple of days whichever company you go into. All right? So Yeah. that's if you like the the big picture. I'm now going to put on the lights that's better I thought it was a bit dull in here. It was lovely and sunny when I first came in You were nice when that light was on. Aye? You were nice in the first light. Yeah yeah now I can actually see what you look like. Okay well you really want to with us don't you? Don't go slanging the recruiter right. You gotta you'll get a flashback off the top of my head . Okay Robert Bob Yep. Erm your background here. That's have a look through this. First of all erm we'll you you you've obviously been round the construction industry a bit. If I can interpret these. Erm a roofing contractor for for twelve years there right? Yeah. That was is was that the doing the selling er you've got roofing foreman here but that was the doing of was it? That was the doing of yep. Okay. Erm that was for twelve years. And then you make what a lot of people would be er consider er er a quantum leap. Into sales. Into sales from being what I would call an artisan and er I don't know what you would call yourself, but somebody who does things erm er on a er manual stroke artisan type work, over to sales. Home security systems I have to say that home improvements is the most likely jeep er leap that people will take first time Yeah. and or merchandising for one of the confectionery companies whatever. Explain why why what was behind your your leap into sales? At the time er well I've always through the roofing right you you come up against site fore you know site foreman general foreman clerk of works and I I've always got on well with I can always talk to people. Okay. Er when the building trade or that company moved out the north east. I was with them in Glasgow as well they were a national company and I came down here from Glasgow . This is what ? H H . Oh sorry oh the first one yeah The first one yeah. Okay. I came down here because they were running out of work in Scotland initially. And er then Mrs Thatcher if you like and cut back council er subsidies and things happened and the work just ran out. Right it was mostly skilled And this was why the company pulled out of the, it says out of the north, are they still in existence or were they in I I don't know. No in eighty four they they weren't going under they were Oh no no no they just pulled away. Er I went back down south again. Er as I say they were a U K company. Were you sort of left stranded then or did Yes. you have something in er is this when you That's when I went in with myself. Okay. It was it was somebody I knew er in the club. So it was a contact? Yeah. All right. Er Who told you you could sell probably. That's how I got into it that's for sure. Yeah well he said er I don't see any reason why you couldn't you know. Yes. I've always been a sort of I won't say outgoing personality let's say right. Er Extrovert. Yeah well. It's another posh word for it. Yeah. I always take people at face value and talk to people. Okay right. You know. Er never had any fear of that. Right. I look at a person and if you like me you like me Well that's let's face it if you don't well you don't. let's face it that's half the battle. Er Okay. So I got into that. Erm And in Newcastle are are a local company obviously. Well again er they were U K based you know nationwide . Nation nationally. Yeah national company. Er but I unbeknownst to myself and near the end it was a sales manager that had a team of men under me and you know and things like that. And then all of a sudden in a span of about three month a lot of deals started er going by the wayside let's say right. You know guys were bringing in deals I was going out and selling Aha. cos you can't let one alone No. as you probably know. And they were going in the next morning, oh they'd phoned up they'd cancelled. Er I've talked them back in but it's a house account so obviously there's no money in for me you see ? Oh that's what you mean by erm Right. auth unauthorized deal. Okay. It was the nicest way I could have thought of put it. What happened was they were actually starting You probably wanted to use stronger language though did you R er Bob? Yeah and that sort of espionage. You know but that's. What was happening was they were starting they were ready to start up their own company to hire managers. Oh right. And so and we were bringing in deals and they were phoning the clients back and saying, Look yeah great alarm systems blah blah we have an alternative one cheaper. And they were fitting in their own until they got up and running. Okay. So you know. Well you lasted there for a couple of years. What what do what do you feel you gained most from er from this er this first two years in sales? In sales? Confidence in myself again. Aha. You know just getting well cos as you know you don't know who you're gonna talk to. Sure. You knock a door and the door opens and that's your first contact with the person . So of course course these were by the title there, Home security, these were all domestic were they you didn't deal with businesses Didn't do commercial. Okay right. No. Er it was all home security systems. Er very high tech very expensive. That's another thing I found The er infra red the system wire free Yeah okay. was all transistorized. Yeah. Er Totally wire free? Well there was two wires. From the main from the main box one to mains one to the outside Yeah okay well that's signal box. system I've got yeah. Yes one I've got as well. A good system. Er and from then You know again it was a professional company it start with we were doing in Manchester for a week's training. This is ? Yeah. Aha. Er very professional course. Very professional. For somebody that had never been in sales before you remember a lot from the course Ah that that was that was yes that was really what I was going to er behind my question or included in my question, is that what did you learn from that Yeah. is that er er you know you you certainly need some training and backup . You need good training. And it was a very intensive course. All right. Anyway the way a course should be run. Er they take you up for twenty minutes intensive and then drop it Yeah. for ten and then take you know so you can absorb things . I I haven't been on one of our courses for a little while but I think that's very similar to er That's the way it should be. You can't cram You see you may have been in sales but in advertise this is erm Well it's entirely different totally different sell yep. Erm All right. But I er what did you learn about people in those two years especially the er the people in the company you worked for. You watched the watched the shysters watched out for the shysters. Yeah oh a lot of back stabbing going on. Well direct sales you you know I always tried to sort of stay away from companies that you know had a reputation for that. Okay. Right. Always sold expensive Right. for the reason the product was worth it. Okay. You know I I I've never I Yeah we're I'll tell you right now we're not the cheapest, sorry the least expensive I should say. That's right I I have the least expensive. I have deviated from that one as well I don't like the word. But er if you get into that sort of squabble er price cutting and things like that Aha. I believe your credibility goes out the window for a start. Mm. If you sell product like that you get more hassle with it. Well you've just you've just er allow you've just said something that allows me er to bring in er the way in which we approach advertising sales er Robert because er all of us who've been in tra traditional sales, and I'm I'm just er that was my background as well er in addition to recruitment, er we are not used to giving everything over the phone before we go to see the people. We are literally only trying to get the appointments so that we can That's right break breaking the ooze our personality show our lovely brochures and product range and say, not even mention the price until they say, I want that one. Er well okay it'll cost you this. And they may have chosen the most expensive. But because they've you've sold it to them. In advertising sales we actually do all that on the phone and then, but all our our personality comes across. Yeah. And because we could chase our tail. You can make a dozen appointments that were advertising and you may come out with one deal. Whereas when we make appointments to see people we are there It's to sign up. to sign up. Yeah. Okay. Now there's nothing wrong with that. I've discovered that because I I've sold advertising. I've discovered that that is the only way, with one or two exceptions that might occur, the only way to stop yourself wasting an awful lot of time. It saves you money. You've got a limited number of slots to sell so you don't need to go thrashing around the country That's right hard sell. using your own petrol. That's it you must get a commitment on the phone. Say well I'm only I'm gonna come to you to sign you up. Yeah. I'll tell you everything you want to know on the telephone now. Price size what it's going to do for you. Two years contract banker's order deposit cheque. Er I'm just listing out there Yeah. are plenty of others they'll tell you on the course. Yeah. Because erm it's gonna save you an awful lot of time and money. And we know from twenty years experience of doing this It works. that it works very well. Our top earners will tell you there's no secret to earning twelve hundred quid a week. Just except work. Mhm. And listening to the people who've been doing it for years. Okay well you you erm you cut your teeth on home security systems. Found out there are some people you have to keep your eye on. And cover your back. N E H I, that's close to being N E I which is a big company in N E I Parsons. It's . Right okay thank you you've just preempted my next question. Based in er in Newcastle. Home improvements what were they in? Double glazing. Double glazing. Yeah. Okay. Because there are quite a range of home improvements Yeah. You've just hit on home improvement companies are legitimately go into all of our products if they want to. Yeah. There's none none that can say, It's no good me going in the schools one. Because they have two thousand parents . There's no excuse for them not to go into the medical practice booklet because they've got fifteen thousand patients or thereabouts. There's no excuse in fact they are very supportive of course of the estate agents. Yeah. Because they're all prospective home buyers. So you've hit on an area that er make up a big advertising chunk that we have. Okay now you you er what from your experience with home security systems were you able to take to er N E H I? Just er selling steps I suppose. Okay. What what you'd learned from did they send you on a No. course? No. So it was hands on It was well there was an ongoing training every morning sort of thing. You know you went in and you went out with the reps and Massaging the shoulders and psych you up yeah I know. Say yeah you can make you know the big bright lights and things like that. Which again if you accept What sort what sort of commissions can you get on double glazing? You can make a lot of money. A lot of money. It it must be on er ante social hours though is it? Oh yeah. A lot of it done during the evenings and weekends? It's all evening weekends you know. This is the only nine to five sales job I've ever been able to offer anybody. Yeah. Because you have to get out of the premises of the people when they lock up. Well that's right yeah. And that in fact is one of the one of the areas or one of the elements that attracts people to this particular job. You're back to home life. Oh yeah. My wife used to say, Can you not get a proper job. That's right. To me it was a proper job because that was Yeah. You know I'd been See money's all right they probably love the money you can bring in but if they don't see you to spend it or to to share it . But again there was some weeks when you know they'd say, Oh how did you work? Aargh the areas were more targeting Getting saturated. you know er you'd be out Competition? priced. Where was your main competition from, price? Yeah. What the Everest of this world or Alpine or whatever? No the other end. Your budgets and . Oh that's right. How where did where did N H I er N E H I come in to that? The sort of middle road or Er we always tried to put it over at er Everest product prices. I can imagine I can imagine. I can just imagine that. Er oh you've got you know every company's the same. Sure. Er I was toying with the idea of getting out altogether out of the, I'll be honest with double glazing. Yeah sure. The cake's the same size Yes. But the slices are getting smaller and smaller Yeah yeah you know. There seem to be an awful lot of local companies shove There's too many given you see they advertise falsely right? Should not get away with six windows and then the small word from two hundred Oh yes from two hundred yeah. Right. So people oh I can get six windows for two hundred pound. So you go in a tell them that six windows are gonna cost them four and a half thousand and they go Well it it also allows me to once again break in here because er one of the things that you can't do in home improvement areas is talk to people about the final price on the phone. You have to go and measure up. You would never get across the door for a start. You wouldn't get across the door. No. Erm here we do. Once again it brings me in to the point where er double glazers have to go and measure up then do their, I know they've got lovely lap tops I've seen them now with their lap top comp their little samples there special catches here. I've bought double glazing you see. I haven't had to in my this current house because they're sealed units and I I bought the house new so. Sealed units must have destroyed at lot of the or taken a chunk out of the market. Well they're easy to destroy as well but we won't we won't go into that . We won't go into that because I've got it and I make a joke . That's right you see I will not I will not tell you you're daft for buying them. No well in fact there are one or two hiccups we've had with them. Especially with the condensation a little nail I found a nail had been hammered through and spoilt the seal. Yep. Okay so once again over four years erm you unfortunately the company went into liquidation. Yeah. Did they set up again under a different name? No. Oh just okay. Now the next part intrigues me. Who is E E C? Oh What product is that? Er well network marketing have you heard I network market I've got no problem with network marketing. It's going to be the future marketing It will be if It will be. you get the product right okay. Well there's a lot there's a lot of companies out there Toyota you can only buy a car in Toyota through network marketing That's correct yep. But I mean the Japanese I think have got like sixty five seventy percent of their national growth. Yeah. Isn't it? Well America's forty odd . As long as we as long as we can persuade people to forget the pyramid er years. Well that's the first thing I used get. Oh it's pyramid selling no I don't want to know. It's a meagre earn, no no it's not that it's a very good way to make money. Well everybody can make their money that's the important. In pyramid there was only one guy gonna make the money. That's right yeah. Whoever started it off. E E C it's European Enviro European Environmental Controls. Lovely name for getting into the Common Market. E E C you know I I've work the E E C you know. Er What what what was this product meant to do? It was water and air filtration systems. I thought N S well N S A. N S A right okay. N S A are the big boys in that aren't they? Yeah. They're the market leaders if you like and all your chaps at the top there will always be the top but anybody getting into N S A now Well they've got the electrical products now er sorry the security products is is their life saver I guess. Well we the E E C started off with the water filtrations and air products and then they got tied up with an American outfit doing fuel savers, magnets for your car. By the way I've got them on my car the work. Right okay. Yeah okay. I I must admit I hadn't heard that one. Er great things. Er and then they went on to them for your central heating Mhm. gas L P G oil central heating er and we were going fine. Er and all of a sudden they brought out the catalogue right? With the jewellery and the cleaner products you know and So it's combining all the other network marketing companies in one catalogue were they? Yeah. Oh what under their own banner? Yeah. Er they just totally deviated from what we were doing. Right okay. Er and we were getting the impression then we were only, not wanting to decry them Bettaware salesmen or Bettaware people, you had to go round now and stick catalogues through people's doors and go back and Oh really. collect collect orders . That's that's away from network marketing that. And the network just went and it just collapsed. And I guess you must have lost erm some of those people would've gone to N S A especially with their new security product. Er I don't know where they went . You don't know okay. You know erm if You didn't keep in touch with them. No well I'm if people pull out they've got their own reasons. Per personal business whatever Oh sure. and next you know it's it's in the past. Yes yeah. You dwell in the past and you'll never go forward. No no. Er Oh no never in marketing as er I mean even the Institute of Directors and the Institute of er the C B I recognize now, in fact they put out papers on it, to say that network marketing is the way of the future. It will be. Erm providing you get the right products at the right price down and it's and it's er it's been it's done ethically. Yeah. See with the likes of the other company we mentioned right, they were been in the beginning er for order values stock they just wanted to sell you stock all right. I'll sell you fifteen hundred the first stock right. Probably turn round say they had a five hundred million pound turnover last year right. I would say Probably about forty million last year. Er sorry yeah In the U K in the U K Yeah. Point I was going to say was about five million pounds of that probably hit the the public the rest is lying in garages and Oh in the house spare rooms and things like that . Yeah I think yes yeah yeah. And to me that was the wrong way to go. I'd rather sell you one for yourself and one to sell. Yes. And if you sold it come back for another one. Yeah. Er all the small people that's how you build your network. You don't go in and say But that that would not give me be of course the people further up the line. That's right. Give me five thousand pound I'll fill your garage full of whatever. Yeah. Although they do they do I mean I've been I've been to the presentations Oh yeah. they they they do give you an option just to start off very low. In fact they've dropped their minimum now. Yes it's down to er six hundred or something isn't it? Or you're not allowed Below below that cos of the of the security the security See the security systems the alarm erm is nineteen pound. Well they've never had a product that cheap before. I think you know to the retail Yeah. not to the public. There was a company come out with something similar like using er an E S P thing. Yeah but they've tak they've taken they've taken it a stage further and er prettied it up and given it another facility. Right okay so that's er that was the demise of E E C. Yep. Erm now Now here we go. Now here we go. Right okay. My wife's a company secretary for the company in question all right? Right okay. And I've known well in between but in between times like Christmas time and Yes. the direct sales times it sort of died. Which it did do. I used to go in and help them out at Christmas because they would be three may be four or five thousand turkeys right. When I left school at first I was er in meat wholesale in Glasgow right. So I knew what I was doing. I could cut and different things like that and be it fate or not his er suddenly lost his driving licence. Okay. Okay. So he asked me if I'd go in for a couple of weeks until he got something sorted out you know. I said yeah fine I'll go in. Er and it turned out a year till he licence back . Okay so you . Well it was steady income I was in the house every night my wife was happy . Robert I've got no problem with that erm I've put down here you wouldn't go on the dole and you got this through your, I think it would be fair enough and er I I I admire that. Well it was money on the table . And it was money on the table. Okay my life's still Is that coming to a finish now. Oh it's fini finished at December there. He's his licence back in October Aha. but he kept me on to get me through Christmas you know things like that . All right fine okay. Let's say I've known the guy for I mean he hasn't kept you on now though ? fifteen years or something like that . Oh no no no. Right well this is a big step a giant step for mankind, particularly if you're Robert to go self-employed. Oh you've been self- employed yes Oh I've always been self-employed apart from that one. Well Oh really? So you were except for roofing foreman well the the roofing er we did go into the seven one four forms you know Okay fine. in the early stages. Yes. They used to called it the hump didn't they? Yeah. Is it still called that is it? Although they tight they tightened it up still goes on our bills. Oh yes of course it does. But that was the good old days. You could walk on to your site and say is that the job how much? What? How much? No. And you could walk fifty yards down the road and there'd be somebody else building and you could walk on a say is that the job how much? Long gone . Yeah okay that's the job long gone. Yeah everything's written quotes and goodness knows what. Yeah. I've got no I I've got no problem with that Robert because there's enough there to say you know that you've got erm cut your teeth already on sales. Okay well that's interesting to get your background. Robert this is a different type of sale. Er it it is I can remove it from the rest of the the sales that er even from the direct sales that you've been Yeah pitch. er and only because of what I different pitch it is on the phone. A lot of people can't get used to that. A lot of people who come to us I have to say. I started out that way and not listening to the people you've been doing it for years and say this is the way you do it. And after a week of not earning I said, There something wrong here. It's you know and my pride was getting a little bit dented that I'd been selling market for years suddenly I wasn't doing this. And they said, Well okay I can tell you right now you've, how many appointments have you told me this week, this is the guy back at camp. Erm I said well yeah he said every day you been saying er I've been asking you what appointments have you got and I said I've got two this afternoon and two tomorrow morning. And each time I've ask you what have you got today, right. Now remember they're not they can't be counted as your boss Your boss no. they're just the person there That's right yeah. who they just need to know on a daily basis what deals you've got. So that they can see how you're progressing. And it's not big brother certainly not a big brother attitude it's just they're there to help you. And er he said, Well you haven't listened to me have you. He said you're making appointment still to go and talk about advertising. He said what reasons have they told you that they're bowing out? Well erm they didn't want to do banker's order, so why did you go around? You're wasting your time and your petrol because it's my petrol That's right. and my car. The second week was entirely different. I I did it their way Mm. and I'll show you one of the commission sheets. It started to pour in and it was compared with previous. You know it does pour in if you have nought the week before anything you get is pouring in. But it was a very good week after that. That's why I always persuade people they must listen. If they listen they'll love you if you listen I'll tell you because you'll do it. Yeah. And all of your performance all the performance of the sales consultants determines what other people are earning themselves. So it's to their interest to beef you up. Having got the fact that I believe you can slot into this job Robert. Because we do give a training course we don't send you know, are you happy to consider that that that there's a two-way opportunity? Oh there's gotta be yeah. Okay. That helps to actually get that out of the way. The referees you were looking for you Well I I yeah the only point is there that we do require four referees. Now if you're you're you're obviously that will not tell us very much about your selling. No The other people all have not aye? They're all not there now. They're not oh that sometimes presents a problem but quite honestly er if you've if you've still got some contacts in sales we're you know. Nobody puts references down here if they've got any sense that are gonna give bad references. Yeah well I mean As as a personnel manager once said to me, Reference are only worth the amount of work You know I you've done on them. I can put down a school teacher does that help? Yeah fine yeah put it under that. Yeah. It's my next door neighbour. School teacher yeah anybody ? Next door neighbour. The references I've given, well I haven't had to give many over the years. But it's been two next door neighbours, one a bank manager and one a chief executive of a company. Mhm. This is fir this is the first My accountant no problem. The first, well my wife done all my books you see. In the company you know I've never dealt with any All I can say is I'm going to put down here, to be advised. Because we're very the reason Right okay. All right. But please advise because we we will write to you. The reason for that is that we're putting tot total strangers on to our clients premises for three weeks. Yeah. And we've already discovered in the last six months by discreet calls because of something we've seen a bit funny in er er in er references that have come back or people have been down right honest and said, Sorry er this guy was last time I spoke with him. He put a solicitor down, and last time I spoke with him I was defending him on a for fraud . . We had he's already started an assignment. We had to pull him off. We couldn't afford to have that guy in. Yeah you know I I yeah I can see. See that? Yeah. Because they'd want your office where you phone I I'm going with it. So so please please take take it seriously on that. Yeah. Please please help me out on that one. Yeah. All right. Robert that's one hurdle out of the way. I believe you could do this job. You cos you I think you you you've got pride and you've got determination and you've got some pzazz. If I'm if I I am in luxurious position of saying that I can fit you in to some of these companies. I've got six companies there. If you were to choose an environment that you think you might be happy to work within, cos remember you're selling ads whichever one, Mm. where do you think you'd put yourself? You've got schools golf clubs uni erm schools universities colleges er estate agents two products and medical areas two products. Well it would have to be I wou looking at it it would be between two wouldn't it really? Estate agents cos they're all over the country. Aha. And golf clubs cos I play golf and they're all over the country . Yeah. Now they're I I personal and er I'm going to tell that with your I don't know any with your background in sales and in what you've done er with your hands as well, I would put you in estate agents. Mm. I I think you'd be er you'd succeed a lot more in that. I know you play golf it might be a danger putting you on the golf courses. You'd want to play the damn thing all the time . with me. I'm just turned forty and I . Okay? Yeah. I but we've got two products there. We've got two products there postal wallets and folders. Quite honestly I have no particular erm preference there for you except let's have a look at the two products shall we? Yep. This is what it's all about products. And they each do for the home buyer and the estate agent the same sort of thing. It presents there the home buyer with a list of businesses that er er that's er an estate agents newspaper that we print er publish every, er it is over here, every month. So we have two products, let me show you these. Okay. These are given away to house buyers when they or prospective house buyers when they walk through the door. Right. All right? Er difference er is obvious. These are much more erm you know retend er retention. There's all the information. Doesn't matter what estate agent you may be going into you will keep the information in this if the other esta other estate agent hasn't got it. Yeah. So you're more, first of all the estate agent's name will be in front of you more than the others, and also the advertisers will be. Right. So an estate agent who hasn't got one of these when you go into this one erm you're likely to retain this. It also has we have the largest independent producers of street maps in the country. And I believe them to be the some of the nicest maps I've ever seen. But we don't sell them. No they're Given away. Given away. That's why er people who come to our company and then after a year or so think they can go away and do this on their own, can't do it. They try they fail they're they're Mhm. another twenty years it's littered with people who've failed in this. Yeah. And that's because of the map. A lot to do with the map. So there's that product and the earning potentials are the same on on both of these products. And then there is what what is a what is a spin-off from the other is a postal wallet. The the estate agents were finding that they were using these up very quickly by sending them away, also they were rather expensive to send away in the post and we were not prepared to put, er we weren't getting the income to survive on that. So we said what can we produce that they can send through the post. And we produced this. Four er six years ago I think it was. The difference the difference the obvious difference perceptively between that and that is er the size but also the number we will print. We will print three thousand of these may be per year Yeah. We'll print thirty five thousand of these. The difference the benefit to this er the advertising here is that it's going to be repeat. If you're on the mailing list you're gonna get a lot of these. Yeah. If you walk through the door you're gonna get one of those. But the benefit of that is it's retained. The benefit of this is repeat. Yeah. And then of course they'll always retain the one that appeals. I'll keep this cos I need to keep that guy's . Yeah. So the the crux of the job is right if I've picked all right. Yeah okay. You go to an estate agents Remember you don't have This is this is You're selling this not this . You're selling this. That that's that's what I was gonna get at . That's . Yeah. Right. We've taken we've taken er some of the workload off. Yep. And you phone round local builders local whatever Right. er and ask if they'd like to advertise. Well I'll give you an idea. Yeah. That list when marketing group go round to sign up the estate agent for one or the other or both. Yeah. Obviously they're not sold together. This might be sold another six or seven months after that Yeah. or vice versa. Yeah. They can have both but not together. Erm they are left er a list of er a blank like this and say right you contracted to take the products now we want from, it'll be this one say, now we want a list of advertisers who or prospec prospect businesses who you think you're happy for us to approach for a start. In other words you don't mind your name his name associated with you. Yeah that's right credibility Secondly. Credibility. Yeah. Erm and it'll also help us to get the the out of your way, we'll get out of your hair within five or six days if you give us all the businesses. Yeah. Now these represent, and this list is sent back to us and retained on the with the contract and all the details of this assignment for when it comes to the top of the pile as it were. Right. When it comes to the top of the pile whoever is the most geographically suitable and available, the consultant is told there's there's your new assignment. Just coming up to finishing this one here here's your new one. That list is sent in the er assignment pack to the estate agent to wait for your arrival. Right. I think I told you this by the way, this I want to describe to you now is the same for all of them. All of them yep. And in fact we even er I'm not sure whether this is still in operation, but we even give them an idea of the categories. Now I can Yeah. I can say to you right now with confidence that if I'd asked you to start writing er a list of the categories that people er that you think might advertise in these you'd probably get about twenty five. Yeah. We've got about a hundred and fifty . Fifty. That's just a Yeah. that's just a slip. Because one of the worse things you can do in this and it's a it's a it's something everybody does I think, I understand anyway, is to prejudge who will or who will not advertise in Yeah. As far as I'm concerned anybody who wants to sign a contract with me gives me copy and a cheque is a legitimate. Mhm. And yet I've been as guilty as anybody else in saying, Oh they won't wanna come in this medical practice booklet what will they gain from it? Let them decide. That's right. We know what they will from advertising their business. That's waiting for you when the assignment comes up. The important thing about that Bob is not to accept it just at face value. Is to sit down with the estate agent and say, Right why have you got these business on. Tell me a little bit about each one of them. And then they say, Well the guy he's next door I don't know him but I just thought I'd put him on. That's not enough for you to pitch on. Yeah. You say well look I'm gonna approach this guy what sort of business are you gonna put his way or can you put his way. Mhm. Is it in your power to put a newsagent er any business. He'll say, Well I can make sure all the newspapers all the erm come in here. And I'll say fine. I've gotta be able to tell him that. Yeah. And you'll have to know your local reputation as well. Absolutely. Well they would know that. But you would only approach that business on the basis that well the estate agent has asked me to give you er you know he he feels that you would benefit and erm from this exposure and er has asked me to approach you first. May be the third one you've approached that day. But they will tell you on the phone . It's Okay? It's that sort of pitch. Okay. Okay? Now So there's not really cold call well it's cold Oh calling in a way but you've got It's not as you want Yeah. Rob er Robert but but we really have warmed it up as much as we can. The the lists that we get range from mediocre to pretty good to excellent. Yeah. But even the mediocre ones you know you have to say, Come on chaps there must be more businesses in this. And of course we've been doing these for twenty years, folders. We've been doing these for about six. The majority of our assignment I would think now are getting to the resale position. In other words we're going back after three or four years. So we'll have repeats. So when you go in and say I'm coming to resell er tell me first of all here's the old here's the current erm folder or postal wallet, who are these people are they still in existence. What sort of business have you, before I approach them, have they do you think they've gained anything from you. What relationship have you got with these. Because if you phone these guys up and say, What a waste of time. Not get anything from them. You may have to say, Well I've just been talking to the estate agent about this and er you know on a number occasions he's sent people along to you er may be you didn't realize that was happening. Mm. Because they don't ask everybody who comes through. Oh when did you hear about this? Yeah. All they want is Small businesses now don't anyway do they ? So we emphasize that when we're signing them up make sure you ask when these people come through where they have seen or where how did they find out about us. I'd be interested I would. Mhm. Yeah. So there's all that on the table. So that's that product. I won't go into the er the earnings yet because they're exactly the same as this. Yeah. That's a fol you can take that away that explains er what what and this is the this is the folder all right? Now you'll see that there are almost the same number of slots in in each. Okay now we've had this for twenty years so a lot of these have been resold of course. But we've got a lot of new ones. Asda for instance if you know the supermarket chain er now have er property services on their prem premises. We've just got the contract to do them. Yeah? So how do you feel about these? Same pitch slightly different pitch of course er sorry slight difference is that you're saying that these of course will be handed out to a targeted Out to audience. These of course are repetitive. Yeah. Are these like erm mail shotted through somebody whose registered with the estate agent? Yes for instance if I Or is it only to buyers? No. If if if if you were wanting to buy erm buy a house if you were moving house, and I didn't realize until the other day that ninety percent of people who buy and sell houses are moving within their own area. Yeah. That's surprised me. Erm er you know if fact they could be just moving two streets away or five miles away but all within the same town. Erm those are the people that are unlikely to get these. Because they Yeah. But I received my first one of these from er from Lloyds er Black Knights er services because I was in I was about fifteen miles away. I could still have easily called in if I'd wanted to but I saw something advertised in a village saw the board took the number down and phoned them up. So they sent me it. Erm because I didn't find it convenient to go and call. That's the sort of so. But you could be three or four hundred miles away moving from Penzance to Aberdeen. That's when you're likely to get that. You'll still visit the area and get one of those. But in the first instance you'll get these. Because that's the quickest way they can get stuff to you. Yeah. And I suppose may be it's may be if somebody got that, that's why I say if you have to buy the property first. But if you got it you might find it would be cheaper to do your house up using these clients rather than sell. You never know do you. So there there's the two products. Now what do you think? What do you, no difference. Same same training course in effect. Different weeks I mean we concentrate on wallets because of the pitch. Any preference. Looks more professional right? Mhm. From a a layman's point of view. But I think you'd get more business out of the smaller one. So which is the easier pitch? Remember you're going into this for the first time. That one? I I would say so . Shall we talk about these? Yeah. Okay. Different companies you see Yeah. in the same division. I'll let you take I'll you take this as well all right? So that you can. But what we're talking about now is that we've made up our mind A that you er I believe and you believe you can do this job. Yeah. So we've got belief in each other. Erm B we have now decided the company and because you've decided this company will also determine how soon you can start. Because this course is every two weeks that one's every week. Right? Right. I'll take that out of your way. You get to take these products away. Let me open up that one. See the difference designs. Yeah. That's actually the the front. Who designs the Right. the adverts. You've asked the question. It just preempts something I tell tell people anyway. But let's have a look at all the all of the design. If it doesn't exist already Sorry. If it doesn't exist already Yep. You're not going to get away with that. Erm Forgot it was there actually. we we take what er they they want. If if erm a lot of these will probably be lifted from Yellow Pages. Yeah. They'll be lifted from local papers. Ninety nine percent of the time they've got copy that exists. We will change anything they want. We will add anything they want. We will design the full ad for them if they want at no extra cost. Yeah yeah. When they come on and say, Yeah no I haven't advertised before that will cost me extra money. You say, No it won't. All I need for you to tell me right now is you're going to commit yourself to this product and I will come round and we'll sign the contract, all the stuff you told him, then we'll talk about copy and it doesn't cost you anything. We'll do it for you. You get a chance to see the proof and and er erm approve it. Okay? Right okay. But you will find particularly this size of ad, although it doesn't matter what size the copy is Yeah. we'll reduce it erm and we'll probably retype it. And we'll juggle it around and give them you know er one or two options. Yeah. Let's have a look first all er just step back slightly to the time when the sales exec goes round to sign up the estate agent. He will he will establish from certain facts how many they they think they'll need for us to print. Okay there's a small estate agent will print ten thousand. Now these are guaranteed we guarantee to print these. They can have as many as they want really. Yeah. Cos all once it's all set up we can just reprint. But that that will be determined by the sales exec when they go round to sign the contract. Not not by you but by the contact. Okay? And if we're gonna print that number, say thirty five, it automatically internally it will generate that target. And that's the sort of target we're going to look for from that assignment. But there is a cutoff point which we know internally, you won't get to know, where we know we've got enough money to cover all of our costs in that first year. We don't want any costs to come out of the second year cos that's where we make our profit. Profit. Yeah. All the commissions, and you only get paid I say only you get paid commission on the first year. Second year you're on another assignment anyway so it doesn't make no repeat. There's no point in having So there's no repeat business? No. Erm so that's a figure if you like you have have up here in your noodle and say I need to go for that anyway. But you always have this figure certainly slapped in your mind. At four and a half thousand pound of sales we start to pay extra fift in fact at four thousand pound we start but it's only a small bonus so I home in on the bigger one. We pay fifteen percent extra on to all all the business you bring in above that figure. Okay? So you need to have that figure in your mind not necessarily that one. Yeah. Your money making figure. Aha. Now that's just a notional one for us to to target internally make sure all our costs come within a certain Excuse me. Hello. Yes could you invite her to have a cup of tea and I'll be er ten minutes or so. Thank you very much. Bye. Erm okay so where are we up to. Erm yes there's the there's the the er bonus er element. We pay the bonuses at proof stage and I'll explain why in a minute okay. All your other commissions thirty percent on all your sales are paid the following week. So there's no waiting around. Do the of it there's plenty in there. you get paid next week. Right okay. Just to give you an idea of the prices. If you compare the the positions one oh beg your pardon you'll need that out. I'll need that one. When you start the assignment er every assignment you get one of these all right? Right. And you use this to mark off of course Yeah. where you have erm the ones you've sold. So now you can relate positions one to three to how much they cost and so on on the way down. The flap is sold. Even though it looks at first it's a ridiculous thing to do. Oh right. Right. When when when people receive that they tear that off and the flap drops down. And er that You study that but that's your work horse. You get a brand new one of these every time. You can have ten percent discount immediately if you need it. But if if we find anybody's a persistent discounter they're causing trouble for the person who comes to resell . That's right. Although it's two years later they've got to resell at the price that er it's been discounted more or less. Unless we can persuade them in two years costs have gone up and of course we will. Typical example. If you homed in on erm one to eight on the flap that would er create the average revenue which is the average across all of our products of six thousand pound. That's what we we find is the average sale. And that's your earning in two to three weeks. Two weeks we hope. Where it's made up of thirty percent commission and the bonuses. Now that's good money in anybody's er Thousand pound a week yeah. If you sold the whole you know it's possible to sell you know it's it's done. In fact I'm not far off there in fact. This is one of ours. I'll explain that one in a minute. If you sold the whole of this that's the earning and you've got to do this excuse me, in three weeks. That's nearly a thousand pound a week. And that's I think what everybody should be trying to aim for. It's there it's available. That's the only freebie there in this particular product. Every time there's a special, it doesn't cost them anything, but anytime they put that in it means they can take this product this this in to that company and get some extra deal. Mm get a discount. Now as soon as anybody puts that in as you'll notice they've nearly all got them in, that's another advantage of course that they will retain this. If they know they can get special deals. So every one of these has got that symbol. As soon as one just one company decides to take that seal we've got to put that ad in somewhere. Now if we sold the whole lot we're gonna struggle a bit. Right. But it will be there somewhere okay? Even if it's er But it wouldn't be from nine to twelve? Mm? It wouldn't be from nine to twelve. It'll be one of those two. Okay right. Okay. I mean it it'll go in certain into that's a selling pitch too. Because that means that the people have got to take this in. Which means it's it's like a big business card. When you go to er prospective clients. Okay you've talked to them the phone right and you're gonna go and sign them up. Mhm yeah. Right? Do you write in Joe Bloggs Er no. this. I would suggest you didn't. You just say sold and may be have your own code. Right yeah okay. Just in case there was a Jonesy you know. Whether that would work or not . Yeah. If you put if you put Jones the builder there and and er Wilson the builder And you're gonna see another builder. and you're gonna take another builder er they will tell you exactly how to approach that. We do have a statement in our contract that they sign to acknowledge that they are not er don't have a dem right to sole They're they're not exclusive. Yeah. They're not exclusive to advertise in this If it's your last slot and you haven't got another builder you say, Absolutely guarantee there's not gonna be another builder in. I'll give you that guarantee myself the company don't like me doing this but I will guarantee. Because you know there's no other builder if that's your last one. Oh yeah. I thought you meant if there was a builder here and that was the last one you sell you. Tell them lies. No no. Evil class admissible today even a lot better than them. Yeah. Right okay. And if a builder gonna go down there you say, Well look I've got one down here but I've got a prime slot Yeah they're all prime slots. they're all prime slots but this one you know you gonna no you're gonna pay a bit more you see. That's the point. This guy's taken this one down here. Well I'll tell you right now I have got another builder on but he's taken one of the er the slots further down but I've got one I've got a prime er the the estate agent asked me to contact you because there is a prime slot left. But I'm you know that that could go this afternoon when I go to a couple of other appointments. And that's basically that charges is it for Yeah. Six fifty for the top three then then down the scale to nine to twelve is four hundred and fifty. On er er the flap in its entirety is twelve hundred pounds. Right. If if they take both sides. Yeah which is which is this. Yeah. And and all of that If you do if you do that's six hundred pound all right? And so is that six hundred pound if they want to buy both sides. And that sticky comes off and so they open it yeah and that's You notice they will also sell it as individuals. In in the inside so nothing goes on that. Right okay. Yeah yeah. They'll tell you all about that on the course. Right. Okay? Yep. Right. The outside is the estate agents and I've never known anybody give that up. No. Cost cost the earth. Okay that's for you to take away. As all this is. Right. So if I get that out the way I'm going to go through very quickly the administration that we look for. And the reason why we make sure that when we go to see a prospective advertiser they'll know all these sorts of details. This contract is applicable across, no that's that no that's the one that's the one that we use on . So that you know see that they're all different colours. Yeah. Six six contracts all the same print so that if ever we shifted you or wanted you wanted to shift you from estate into to golf or to schools we don't have to retrain you at all. Except may be in the pitch. Yep. But these are the sorts of things and I'm not going to great detail because the training course does that, these are the things that they will blow you out on. If you don't tell them that you're going to pick up a thirty five percent deposit cheque. Yeah yeah that's They don't know that cos that's your commission cheque. That covers you for us paying you in the next week. That's right yeah. If you don't tell them that we want a banker's order to take out the er annual payments. Right these are the sorts of things if you spring those on them. If you, ah now can I ask you to sign that and then the banker's order And by the way yeah. there's the banker, What's with this banker's order I don't deal with a banker's order. That's right. You didn't tell me anything about the cheque. Yeah. You didn't tell me that there may be two signatories on the cheque. You've got to establish that before you go round. Is it just you who signs the cheque? Yeah okay yeah. And the banker's order. They'll say, Well no the financial director will need it. I'll say, Well we need the financial director there as well. When I come round I need them both there. If you left this anywhere you'd never see it again. No. It's another reason they'll blow you out . You just leave I'll saying, put it in the post for you. Forget it. Yep. So that's generated two of the bits of information we want the other Is it an annual charge or is it a twelve month payment thing on it, or just an annual charge? Yeah it it's er when you quote a price it's per year for two years minimum all right? Yeah. But is there a facility for a twelve months payment order or No. You mean monthly over twelve months ? Yeah. No. So it's just Really don't mess around with that. Right okay. Yeah cos you can print it and then two downs two months down the line they could pull out and you've you've Oh absolutely yeah. printed it for nought. Yeah. I mean we get some people that pull out er cancel or go under and then we don't get the second year's payment. That's nothing to do with you. Not No. even the first year's payment's anything to do with you. Just that deposit cheque. You're not asked to chase any money after that. Right okay. The other er bits of information of course we need to know what co I've already spoken about the copy. What we will do for them. Yeah. This is the document they use in association with the with the copy. So once we've got that the contract and the cheque, yippee we can send off our commission form at the end of the week with all the deals in the envelope. And that's what we use. Right. There's one written out so it looks at least. You have your own number Number. the assignment has it's unique number Number You just list out the advertisers, we list out the type of contract it is. There are one or two exceptions on medical side that er we we call on the approved list Yeah. Don't need cont er don't need banker's orders and they don't need cheques but we have to have an order from the company. Yeah. attached. Are these erm inclusive of VAT or is there no VAT on advertising any more? Yes there is yes. Yeah there So those places haven't ? They're exclusive of VAT. When you quote six hundred and fifty pound plus VAT. Right that's okay right. But the commission's paid on net? Yes. Yeah. That's that's actually That's the cost of the ad exclusive of VAT. If you are VAT registered yourself of course Yeah. and we hope most people would be because thirty six thousand pound, if they're all earning thirty six thousand I used to well I was VAT but pulled out . I still am. Yeah. Erm that's the amount of you commission and that's probably the lowest er you know the lowest that er you'd get well three hundred and fifty pounds. So you'd just be about a hundred and I think a hundred and ten is the lowest commission you get for any deal in our company. Right. And the highest is somewhere around seven hundred and fifty I think for one deal. Same same contract they're signing same contract. The size of the ad is bigger. Right. I mentioned earlier on that you you get paid erm bonuses at proof stage. That's where you claim. And they have to be claimed. Every two months a list of numbers of the assignments that have been proofed, that means all the ads have been done across the products and all the proofs have been sent out, we've also clai got the balance of the first year's payment. We are now prepared to pay you bonuses. Right so we get paid the extra fifteen or whatever If you're entitled you will know exactly you will keep a record don't worry. Oh I think so yeah. When er when you spot that number on the list that comes out to you you can claim. And that's where you claim. A lot of people leave it in there to accrue to pay tax or whatever. It's a good idea actually. Yeah it's You won't forfeit it but you still have to remember you've gotta claim for it all the time. So claimed his after two years recently and got about six thousand pound. Yeah. New car or whatever holiday. Yeah. Okay. But you you're entitled to it so you can claim it any time you want. You just keep a note of it and I think this is for you Robert this this er this job not this job this opportunity. Yeah yes. Different exciting intriguing. Super. Yeah. Right now I've we've got some new documentation for the wallets. Erm what I need to do now is just so I'm gonna have to cross a few things out. What I'll try and do is to remember to send you the new documentation. But for now I'll and you're happy to start with us any time yeah? Yeah. Fully expensed course. Got your own car haven't you I hope? Yeah. Good. I've got to look a one of the notes here hang on. Erm we've got one going at the moment so week commencing the seventh of February. Yeah. All right? That's only the week after next so give you an i er a chance to Week Monday. And are they at ? And that's at . So what we do on wallets we send we have people for three days in house all right? We give them a three day intensive in in a in fully expensed by us. We pay your travel costs there we pay your hotel bill and we then send individuals out er for two days with a top earner stroke trainer. Yep. Now I don't know where that is it could be anywhere. But wherever possible if somebody's working in your area right now we'd send you there. If they're they're in that top echelon. Yep. Otherwise we might have to Is that a three day residential course? Three day residential and then two days out in the field Two days out in the field. It could mean you staying away from home but we pay your expenses then okay? Yeah that's no problem. Right so first of all that's Monday. Okay. Erm and it's I I just men mentioned here the company is Publications. Yeah I noticed that on the top of the Yes okay I make a note that contract . Now on F oh sorry on Monday the seventh er oh sorry on Friday the fourth I would like you to phone into this this er phone in to head office ask for Publications. Right. being . Er I've got I've gotta just change these. I'm gonna put figures here. We've got some new erm er stuff that's Monday to Wednesday right? Yeah. So on the following Thursday and Friday, I hope you'll remember these will you. Sorry it's a bit messy. The following Thursday and Friday. Yeah. So on the Monday you'll be working on your own assignment. So er take out that and put Sunday. So you stay Sunday you Monday night with the Tuesday night and you don't need the Wednesday night. You do need the . You're there for three days and and Sunday night. So that's Sunday Monday Yes that's what I was gonna ask you do you arrive early morning or do you move in the Sunday night. Okay da de da I don't need that any more. Three days now that's you you'll know what I mean here don't you? Yeah. Sorry about this. That is now Thursday to Friday otherwise all the stuff that's the hotel you'll be staying at okay? Oh actually no Sunday evening and that is that's Wednesday. All right? Yep. If you read all this through and be just totally confused . What did I say the Parkwater Hotel? Yep Parkwater which is there. It's got a swimming pool so. Oh I'll pack me trunks. Pack your swimmies. Pack me trunks. Right now what I do now can I just have there's there's a form here I will get a letter of confirmation through will I? Oh yeah this will all be in writing to you. Yeah. Okay. We will pay the travel costs to and then out on your assign er sorry out on your two days out. If you had to stay away on your two days you're out with the trainer then we will pay you thirty pound a night subsistence. Right okay. Okay he will know exactly where Yeah. He or she the trainer will know exactly where you get some good deals okay? If I can ask you to sign to say you know that. Any expenses reimbursed by . All right. But we pick up the hotel at Printed signature that's I know. This has all been changed I'm afraid this it's it's all in the process of being changed and then inserted into these er these are older packs I'm getting just using up. Okay. There's a copy there for you. Oh there's one for me right. So you know what you've signed. There you go. Right okay. Super. I've got that I've got that I must make a note of this. of the seven stroke two and all I need now is your photograph. Oh boy you lucky person. Do you normally wear your glasses all the time? Yeah all the time yeah. Yeah fine. They're not cosmetic. Unfortunately. Right. Now just relax and smile please . Passport passport photo . Good. Now you need to bring four passport photographs with you by the way. Yeah I was going to ask that . But if you read all that documentation end to end twice three times however you need Yeah. to absorb it all I'd be grateful. Is there many from the north do you get many out of this area? Er well I come up here about every two to three weeks and then then I leave it for about two months and then er you know do it that way. Er cos er my son-in-law I mean I put on the form right I've got no children right. Yeah. I read that as the dependants. Okay fine yes. Right my youngest is nineteen and she's at university so No problem. If you er if you're gonna recommend somebody you thinking about doing that? Well I was just going to say that he's in advertising. Er Oh I see okay. er with the er the Evening Chronicle. Right and that's why I wanting to see whether. Cos he goes out you know and calls into businesses and things like that right. Er and I asked him if he'd heard of you and he said no. Well we different. And I thought different type of advertising doesn't you know. We will in fact be er I mean I advertise in the er I am a client of his and we will we will be looking at the same he will be a competitor of ours in some fields. But they they will have Yeah your local field agent out here would only be And not only that er go into the Newcastle Evening Chronicle it's dumped the next day. Mm? And all of our products are er retained. That's right today's days is just tomorrow's fish and chips isn't it? Absolutely yeah. Er Okay well thanks very much Robert And yourself. Look forward to seeing you over in head office sometime. Do men hate women? Of course they don't! They respect, admire, like, and often love them! Don't they? Now why am I stirring in the age long war between the sexes? Isn't the sparring light hearted and fun underneath all the rough and tumble? Men really care for us, don't they? I mean, the things they say about women when they think they're alone, they're just jokes aren't they? Right? Well tell that to the marines! And that's the polite version, say many women! How many women? Let's see what this hundred women make of the question, do men hate women? Button one, and button two for no. Ge generally speaking, I mean as far as you can tell, living as long as you have done how would you answer that question? And in this hundred, sixty seven say no, but thirty three which is exactly a third, say yes! Who said yes, and why? I think misogyny is is very ancient, it's as old as man. It comes from Augustine Equinus it's come right down through literature and history. And perhaps, today we would not say that men actually hate women, but there aren't isn't much obli , er evidence of their respect. They're not willing to erm, recognise women as their equals. Why? Well I think it's been a mans world, they, they've had a wonderful time! Why, why should they give it up? I think erm like the main issue is that men are really afraid of woman and really Mhm. afraid of woman's power and the only way they know how to combat that is is to put out this kind of this hatred or or this misogyny in in the language in the way they behave towards women. But I think it's there, underneath it. Like fear, in trying to keep women down so that women can't discover their power, because women are just so powerful! And we're only just beginning to realise that. And what is the misogyny that they're putting out that you talk about? What is the evidence? Oh,it's just, you know it's incredible ! Like advertising erm language, you know like erm, any courses that you study most of the text books will always be in in male identified language. Yeah. Erm you get comments on the street! Mm. You know, in the pubs, oh! It's, it's so tremendous! Like it's just so huge, it it kind of feels quite overwhelming to even begin to combat it! Mm. I think that it's only a fear of women but it's also a belief in the innate or or learn superiority of men over women Mhm. so that men from a very early age learn that women are, are not important creatures, that they're not to be respected or erm understood certainly, and that they can be erm, beaten and abused and raped! I think er male society is built on women hatred! Erm, we hear a lot about the holocaust that happened to the Jews in the second world war but not so many people know a lot about the holocaust that has happened to women over centuries and centuries where millions of women were burnt as witches, but er, just because they were women! Sorry, I think this is a complete generalisation Mhm. of men! Men, there are men who hate women, I agree with that but there are men who love and respect a a th what a woman is for how how good and and stre , the strength of women who can make you feel good and who who gives you the power of being able to be yourself and I I'm sorry I I, that is part of it, I think there are two sides. Mhm. I think a lot of men do hate women, I think a lot of men don't. But I think the problem is that many men who hate women don't realise that they hate women. They think, for example, the feller who sleeps with a lot of women, he says oh I love women! I adore them! And he doesn't realise that he's abusing and using them Mm. because it's accepted. It's, you know, he's a Jack the lad or whatever! And I think that's a, you know and it's the fact that society allows a lot of abuse to happen to women and therefore it's not seen as hatred to women, it's seen as perfectly acceptable. Mhm. Yes? Yes, I think really it's a er, faulty gene in the system and no matter how men hate women, the majority of men really like women other than perhaps envy, or jealousy, or women earning more than their husbands and throwing it back in them, in their face, but the main subject, the main point to me is, there is a faulty ge gene in their system and there's no way you will eradicate that! That's a rather gloomy view! But, is it is is is that true? Yes? Well what about the images that men see of women every day in page Mm. three? I don't think that's respecting or liking women, that's just making them as sex objects! That Mm. I can't see that as being loving a woman. Mhm. If men like women so much where are the men who are speaking about what other men are doing to women? Where are the men who are speaking out about the abuse of women in the home? Where Mhm. are the men speaking out about rape and sexual assault of women? It's women who are speaking about it, out Mhm. about these issues, not men! Well I think men really do believe that they are better than women. They don't want to recognise that we're equal. I mean, they're the ones that point out, no, we can't do that, that's women's work! Mm. You don't hear women saying I can't do that cos that's a man's job! Mhm. Up there? I think it's actually still inbuilt in erm children's minds, and I think it's sometimes the mother's own fault because they still bring them up, you know like, girls will do this and boys will do that, I think that is actually still still there, you know. So you don't think it's the faulty gene that Marian talked about, you think it's in the ? Yeah I agree , I actually agree with that as well because erm, I have a son and I think and he's brought up by myself and there's no man about, you know, so well I think it's actually inbuilt in the man that he you know, that he's actually like that. Beside you. I think one women that most men dislike is the mother-in-law! The mother-in-law gets the brunt of everything! Prove mother-in-law's wrong, no matter what she tries to do, she's wrong! All Yes. men seem to say that! Are you talking from experience? Well I shouldn't ask you that should I? Erm, I I think it's less a problem to be thought that men hate women so much it is alright to be rude about women. Mm. I compiled an anthology a few years ago about, of misogynist quotes, and it's everything from the bible, the Koran, the Hindu, to, every religion's in there, all the judges are in there, pop singers are in there, I mean everybody under the sun! And the things they say yo you read them and you think, oh yes, that's pretty awful! But like er, all women are evil and are the cause of all the evil in the world, says Shirley Bassey! And you think well you know, that's going to sell her lots of records and it's jolly good! But if you changed it and said all black people are evil and are the cause of all the evil the world! It gets your flesh creeping Mhm. in a way that it wouldn't if you said women! And I think that's where the danger comes as it's a sort of acceptable thing to say! One, very easy way to find out how much men dislike women is not to behave they wa , the way they want you to behave! Mm mm. So, I mean a a true real example is you get drunk men in a pub Mhm. they came up to you if there's two women together they assume that they have the right to talk to you, that you're going to be interested in them, and if you tell them to get lost however politely, you can get a very, very unpleasant response because they assume that what they have to say is more important! Mhm. Up there. I think this is not, is more evident within marriage. Erm, I think the idea is that a woman is a man's possession, that she should be subservient, she should do as she's told and that she has no intelligent to think intelligence to think for herself! Erm, one er main area I think, is in, when it comes to domestic violence. Now, if you, if a woman gets hurt and she goes to the police for help they come to the house and they tell the people concerned it's a domestic argument! What still? So , it's still a domestic argument, sort it out for yourself! The wo , it seems to be the age old theory that women should do as they're told! If a , the violence is within marriage it should be sorted out within the marriage which I, you know, I don't agree with. Has that not changed at all over, over recent years? I mean has er er are there not more enlightened attitudes? Yes? I think th the the publicity that the police give out about the Mm. their attitudes would, would lead you believe that they have changed and they have become more receptive to the kind of things women have been saying over the years. But I think if you listen the stories of women themselves, er, who are abused in the home and who call the police, I think you would find that the same old attitudes are still erm been found. Mhm. You do read terrible stories in the papers every day of men who've murdered their wives, get off even though they've chopped their wives into a hundred bits, driven to the Lake District overnight, dumped the body and gone back Mm mm. his school sports and said I did it for the sake of the children! And they get let off for that! Mm. You know, they say oh she moved the mustard pot one morning and it really irritated me so much I killed her! And the judges sympathize with it, that's that's a Mm. that's a dangerous Yes? Mm. There was one place quite recently Mhm. when erm the wo the woman had nagged her husband, the husband killed her and she got le , oh he didn't get let off but he, he got erm I think he walked from the court because the Sheriff said the wife had nagged you for erm he, she did have to be killed! I mean Mm. this is what we're coming up against! Mhm. I think it's really important to er, define this this brief that it's women responsibility to change men, and to change their sums. Because er, inevitably man has gotta leave their home, even if they've had a father erm who's been a if they've had no father at all, they're gonna leave and they're gonna face a world where they have to be a man and they're gonna have to find their own male morals, and I think the, the responsibility, basically, has gotta come to men to change not for us to change them. Yes, we have to fight for our equality, for our own rights but w we can change men and our, the responsibility is not for women to change men, it's for women to change our own lives, our own situations, and for we , men to change their own. Well there's much talk at the moment about what's called the backlash effect, that in fact,th the any advances that the feminist movement may have made on behalf of er of women is having precisely the, wrong effect and er and men are are reasserting their the their more old fashioned style. I don't know if you would agree with that or what you think of that, and one might to combat that if you agree that is does exist? Yes? Well er, I don't really think there's been enough improvement to backlash against and er One of the things I would like say is, that although many things have changed a lot of things have stayed very much the same Mm. and perhaps some of the have arguably grown worse. I'm thinking really of the way misogyny has become a sort of public spectacle Mm. and the subject of so much popular entertainment! You know, er, Twin Peaks, The Silence of the Lambs Mhm. erm, American Psycho whatever! I mean er, video games which turn on the chopping up of women, I think there's real misogyny there and it's saturates our public media, you know real erm undiluted women hatred! And parents are really not alone in in bringing up their children, their children are exposed to all sorts of outside influences, through the media, in their peer groups, and those in many ways, I think, are getting worse rather than better. Yes? Things like the diet industry Yeah. the diet industry is teaching us to hate our bodies Mhm. so that we spend millions of pounds on, on diet aids that we don't need at all! Mhm. That's, misogyny! Yes? I would, I worry terribly much about this discussion and it was suggesting that men are somehow the root of all evil and all Mm. all the things that happen, all these sighs of oppression, because I think really what we're talking about, whether it be within the family or it be within the media, all the signs of women as er sexist Mhm. images or whatever, aren't so much to do with misogyny, some horrible male plot, some patriarch or conspiracy, it's to do with the way our society is run and I think that's, we look far more at class. I feel more allegiance, if you like, with er, a male working class person than I do perhaps with a female member of the class, Margaret Thatcher would be a very good example of that. I feel far mo , less sympathy and far less identification with her than I perhaps do with a male worker who has to cope with the same kind of exploitation that I do, day in, day out. I think that really is perhaps where, where perhaps, examples of oppression come from, I, the structure of society rather than men being evil. What do you think of that view? Yes? Well if, if you look at erm a female worker, er as opposed to a male worker and you look at the o oppression that she suffers, does she not suffer both the oppression of being working and the oppression of being a woman? So, to me she was more oppressed than her male counterpar part. Sure , she suffers both if you like, she suffers from oppression of being Yeah. a female in society and she suffers the exploitation of being a,be being a worker, of course that, but the a ruling class woman doesn't suffer from exploitation. Deborah? Well I'm, I think er, although I have no personal time for Mrs Thatcher politically at all, I think she's an absolutely classic victim of misogyny. That the way in which Mrs Thatcher was depicted, criticized you know, ditch the bitch! All those kinds of slogans were a very good example of how er, women hating comes to the fore whenever women get in positions women are not supposed to be in. I agree with you that Mrs Thatcher is a representative of her class, first and foremost, but I think the way she was treated showed up a lot of rather unpleasant things about the er the political movements which opposed her. I wish somebody here would define exactly what misogyny is! I thought it meant a man who hated a woman. It seems to me that the discussion right now is that we are all seeing all men hate all women! Mm. And that is not true! Some men hate some women. Yeah, I have worked all my life in various jobs and I've never yet met a man who hated me nor have I hated any man, and I think there must be many women here who think the same thing. So, all men do not hate all women! Would you recognise that we live a society where some men hate women and are able to use whatever power and influence they have to project an image of women which is which is hateful? No! I I, I think it depends Right. on your own attitude. I've Does never encountered it. Right. I would agree with er, the lady behind strongly! I mean I think that I would, really a lot of what we're talking about here is actually male chauvinism Mhm. and I Yeah! deal a lot with men Yeah. in in my course of work, I have three grown up sons and I think an awful lot of what we're talking about is in your own attitude to men, and generally the most difficult men to deal with, I find, are men who for whatever reason, are actually inadequate, a little bit sensitive to women being competent I I have no difficulty at all in dealing with that, but I I'm aware that it seems significant to me that a lot of the younger women here are much more shall we say, sensitive to erm, what I perceive as being basically male chauvinism. I'm not excusing violence, domestic violence, I Mm. consider that to be exceptional, I'm talking about the general. There. Yes? I think the evidence though is that men like okay, we're talking generally, but if you look at the evidence of how many women are raped, one in four of girl children are molested before the age of sixteen, that to me suggests hatred! I mean, the statistics for boy children being molested, there, there are boy children are molested but the statistics are nowhere near as large! Like, so many women are raped! So many women are beaten! So many women are molested when they're really, really young! And that to me looks like hatred, that looks like trying to destroy femininity, something that is beautiful. Let's le let let me, let me take a couple of er votes. Have you ever been raped? Button one for yes, button two for no. I'm not going to pursue anybody on this one so I mean I'm not yo you ca you can answer with er with impunity. Now fourteen people in this hundred have said yes, which I think is is is shocking! Have you, have you ever been physically abused by a man? Button one for yes, button two for no. And that's ha, even more shocking! Fifty three people have said yes, they've been physically abused. And have you ever been emotionally abused by a man, is the final question I'll ask at this stage? Button one for yes, and button two for no. And there we have e have phwurgh, seventy six people have said yes, they've been emotionally abused by a man. Now, maybe, maybe that is male chauvinism, that the status quo, that's, that's just how life is, is it? I mean how, how would you respond to those particular votes? Well you know er, as I said, I think really an awful lot of it is in your own perception of, I mean what someone here might call emotional abuse, I would just regard as a challenge. I really don't necessarily find every time a man and I'm perfectly aware of the fact that Yes. a lot of men are not very good at taking a women's opinion but I don't necessarily regard that as a translation into some form of male misogyny. Okay. Some men hate men! Some men hate people full stop! They Aha. hate children! They dimi , they hate animals. some women do and I'm not quite clear that it has to be so definite as as er There. some people feel. I think a lot of mis misogyny is behind the scenes in the all Yeah. male world of the the guilds, the working men's clubs, the freemasons, the rotarians, and even the pubs which have a predominately male culture and we don't know what they're saying about us behind our back and I think that is why there's so much naivety about. Just like to ask the hundred women here, we have the Chippendales, and we have the men from Texas now we always hear that they're sell-outs, you know Mm. th , is the woman going there to abuse the men or to humiliate them why is it such a sell-out then? What , yes? I think that, that there's a o , clearly a very different history behind erm the use of women as sex objects and the use of men as sex objects, and a fundamental difference is that erm the, the background to erm using women as sexual objects in pornography or in prostitution is that is sexual violence, the wo the women can be raped or can be beaten i i in a sexual way and and that simply is not the case with men who are used as sexual objects. So I think it's it's erm, it's a non-issue. Mhm. Yeah, I would just like to add something to that, and the fact that it's not only that women, that, that men are taught that they can rape and they can abuse women, but er that it's alright! I can walk out or , and get erm, you know tonnes of any any shop I can get pornography that tells me that, or tell any man who chooses to buy that magazine that's it okay to take a women even if she says no. It's okay to rape a women. It's okay to rough, to be hard, to push, to rape! You can get magazines who tell Mm. you that that's okay and that women even enjoy that! If that's misogyny I don't what misogyny is! Mhm. Well years ago I I was at a party which was er, for a woman about to be married and there was a male stripper there. And, the women were it was very jokey, it was very jolly and lots of titters and things I'm not making comment on whether I think it's a good thing Aha. or a bad Aha. thing. I have also been to a strip show which involved a woman, in a, in a club and it was a very different atmosphere. Men were making all kinds of really negative remarks Mm mm. about the woman, you know, oh she's got a, she's got a mole on her backside! Ooh I wouldn't have her! Or, I I can't re , I won't repeat here the things they said, but you know spread it, or get it out or whatever! You know, really demeaning things! Very, very aggressive! Very hateful! Now, getting back to the comment the woman made earlier about men being misogynist within their own world I'm quite convinced that a good deal of those men would go home to their wives and family and be very loving to their, to their wives and family, be respectful of their neighbours but as soon as they got in the all male environment, and this woman was there to be used, she was their property for the time that they paid their money to get through the door, they could be as misogynist, offensive and horrid as they wanted to be! Mm. You see, I think, I mean thi thi it's it's been discussed seventy er seven of you said no, men don't hate women and yet some of the discu , a lot of the discussion and certainly the votes you taken give a very gloomy picture! And few people ar , a couple of suggestions have come up th th th , say that it, things will only change when men actually decide they're going to change, when men feel that's it's intolerable to live a society where the kind of things which have been discussed, whether it's the th th pornography or the the various abuses of women are seen as as just not being acceptable any more. Do you think that's ever going to happen Oh sure! or do you think The difficulty is that all the religions of the world have text books which are still studied, which all say that women are stupid, women are wicked, women are property, and women are revolting! You know, you're all taught that from childhood and always have been. I don't quite know how you change it. Things have gone er, better for women they have, in the restoration of a women publishers and there weren't any in last century, you know i er things go they seem to swing backwards and forwards all the time. But as a compiler And we stay in the same place! As a compiler of an anthology of er, of misogynist er, quotes, was it hard to find them? No! But I di I mean I didn't even have to look, you see, you Yeah. just, everything you read you just you can just Yeah. fillet it all out. I'm, I'm not a writer of these sort of books, I write theatre history Mm. and I'm an actress, that's my job, you know. But, I just came across so much of it every where I was, I thought actually there there's a book in this because it used to get, just get me so cross writing theatre history and, and reading these terrible things! There. Yes? As soon as a a a a a woman, erm or a lady stands up to be counted she's looked about, she's looked at as being aggressive, not assertive, as first it's aggressive because they think it's the challenge again. Instead of realizing that they have a right to to say, if God has no respect for persons, why should men be? I'd like to go back to what the lady across there said about the strip show Yes. now do I don't suppose I'm the only person that's been in a pub toilet, a ladies toilet and I've heard the females in the toilet saying what, exactly what they would like to do the males! So I don't think that erm all lad , all females are ladies. I'm, I'm going to try a little experiment which er, which may not work. I I did say to you at the beginning do you think er men hate women? An and you voted on it. Can I ask you the same question again ho , after this discussion, do you think men hate women? Button one for yes, and button two for no. I have to say, myself, you know I feel one of the worst thing you can call a man in the English language is a term that's used for a women's genitalia. I er I, well there isn't another word that women can actually use, it does, it does make me wonder. However, well now then th the er, the vote's changed. Thirty three of you thought that men hated women before, now it's gone down to thirty one so so any of you gentleman watching who have bruised egos yo you have your supporters here. E er any any final word? Yes? Erm, I think it's quite interesting what you just said about er men using the, the word cunt, which actually I can't broadcast I think that, could you say that again? Okay. men using the wo er, female genitalia as a a derogatory term and if we actually go back to the roots of that word erm, to me it's like basic shows you what misogyny's about the actual root of that word it means, seat of power. And, our women's power, and men are scared of our power! So you would like to reclaim a word that I'm not Oh yeah! allowed to broadcast? Yeah! I think we should all be able to say that word and feel proud about it. How many additions of Scottish women will there be before we can do that? Yes? I think, I think you do need to look at power, I think that's quite a crucial er Mm. area that we need to think about. A lot of women here have said it's up to women, it's up to mothers Mm. but I mean, if you look at where cultural power is who has control over images that we see, books that we read, films that we go and see? I think it's very interesting, the film Cape Fear, that's out at the moment, which says, is the scariest film you'll ever see. And the fear there is the same fear as walking down the road in, at night wondering if you're going to be raped! Mm. It actually works on the fear of rape. And that's that's gonna be a box office hit! I think we need to look at who has control over what we see. Have you ever complained about an an image or an advert or a film? I mean, have you ever written to anyone or phoned anyone? My complaining was only effective cos we actually took direct action over some advertising for erm swim wear. Erm, yeah we, we did take direct action and so eventually the ad was dropped, but if we'd just complained and not taken any action the ad wouldn't have been dropped. What is direct action? Were yo Wasn't exactly legal! Did it involve th , I mean a spray can or er It actually involved destroying erm, some of the product to just to indicate women were about it. And it I see. was only after then, only after actually threatening property that the ad was dropped. Before that, they wouldn't drop it. Well it would be irresponsive of me to say there's a lesson for you in that! I shall simply say thank you all very much indeed. And thank you for joining us. Goodbye. That'll be forty five in a That's a good idea yeah aha erm, if you leave that on there mm, mm should nee stand now I should imagine it should stand normally, just like er anything else I'll just leave it on here there there you are see, but if ya, er put it on your person she says, you daren't put it near your throat because No cos, oh yeah the sound yeah if you are if I on aye and so put it anywhere near here yeah I should imagine mm, mm but er in the morning I surprise because when I knock your door and I got up early, I got up at half past six cos Mm quarter past nine cos er me and Billy wanted to get our oil into a, Aha, aha, aha so he says Covent Garden doing a, quarter past nine, so I says oh aye I'll be up ready mm, mm so when I got up half past six and I got shaved now at last, gonna go and get ready and pull the curtains back, oh what a of rain, I says oh I says I've never seen such worse terrible, absolutely terrible I says I daren't fancy going out in this I went upstairs and er, it's always the same innit? I got upstairs and the phone ring I says oh I says that's gotta be Warren, it couldn't be anybody else, so when I come down I went off like, well I tell ya I can't do it, so I knew it was so I picked up the wrong she says oh I'm just ringing because you can see what the weather is she says and you couldn't go and do a day in erm, with your True, true you know mm, mm so, so she says I'm gonna go down to Presto, Billy's gone to fetch Wally's pay slip mm, mm and he meet me at Presto and we'll get your stuff and we'll get our stuff out the same time erm That's just what you will dreading us speak Aye about don't you? so he says we're gonna do in dirty weather Oh what you do in the cold, oh that was grand oh aye, oh he's says oh aha, ya who, well that was fine so she says I'll be quarter past nine and you know by er you know mm, mm yeah and just turned nine, knock on the door, opened the door, gee and I said the umbrella with the rain and the wind blowing, she says there's more of this,it's not like that No it can be one of, like one of those aye you know with the squashed yeah little mm, mm well when I went to get pulled him inside it isn't, it isn't ah yes love and just pulled her along it's a waste of time taking an umbrella anyway Aye, so she says I don't think I'll bother I just put it in a bargain mm, mm , mm, mm and er, anyway she got me walking out and she says er, see you when I come back, that was er about twenty past that was twenty past eleven wasn't it? Came back door, I opened the door and er he had a big holdall you know Ah great right on top of the yeah all the, er, my stuff mm, mm although I didn't get many sixteen and er he was hovering there, I says well what's happened? Oh he says oh me knee's gone and he and he with his trouble oh, he was soaking and she was soaking, they come in, she had er trolley and he had er Bag that big holdall full of er mm full of stuff, and er she had the trolley and two er plastic bags you know those yeah plastic bags and he had a plastic bag and that when and she had the trolley with all that in, so well loaded up, you know I can imagine and er, anyway he hobbled in, oh he said, me knee, hmm, anyway sat with him and had a cup of tea, she didn't have nothing to drink like and er, anyway we had our tea and he hobbled in to the front room,and er and er, she says well you bugger you are, er batter mixture up for ya Oh for the Yorkshire pudding? Aye and you forget the, er Carnation Milk for ya, fruit er Mm, mm and er s got a nice bit of cheese and er plastic mm, mm cos have cheese on the you know er, on the cool counter you know that's how they sell it oh yes I've tried every cheese they've got on here and there's nay taste whatsoever see, that's it the Red mm, mm er Red er Leicester, I got a lump last and there was no taste at all and on the second day, we not having a proper fridge just er, a a fridge you know keeping it in store aye yes, that's when you miss that fridge the cheese just went dark brown well did so I says the only thing that'll be is to er toast cheese on toast mm, mm you know yeah cos I didn't fancy eating it like that and er she goes, I told her give us a piece of some of that wrapping you know yes with the hard cheese, sealed with the plastic mm, mm so there's a nice bit there, so ninety five or ninety six pence mm you know this is so she says oh I'll probably see ya, er one night she was er cutting all the up for the rest of the week like, she said do you want a bet on the the big race this Saturday? Oh I said ooh I can't ee fancy nowt you know, the weather and the he said well if you just want one on, have a want, and, I said well I didn't wanna put you, you know you know go and put the bets on it That's true so I said well I wanted to put one on it oh er ah yes but it was waiting for him to see you and with me not ah and he would me have one and you know that's it, yeah ah you know I thought to myself oh I should have a bet to yeah I might phone him in the morning just ask him before he comes along and er ask er to put me one on and I can give him the money in the bet, good thinking cos he goes about quarter to twelve mm, mm cos I'd hate to think she wasn't having that little flutter yet you probably put her off for putting the bet on cos you were Me, er no what? putting it on, that's true And er so I said oh aye, I said I want, it's only er fifty P a quid on a, a new oh well that's neither here nor there so treating last year I should of had that winner, I picked a and it won oh yeah, it won the race at nine to one, I could of had it, you know, it's in the race this year well it's not much is it a pound? you cannae fancy it this year, you know You know I couldn't fancy it this year, you know, but er yeah apart from Red Rum you very rarely get a horse that'll win a two that'll hold two year you know mm, mm in a trot but er I might just have this and none of them would win, I've only, I would only praise them guessed up or that way or can imagine, yes I can well imagine yeah it was, you know, when, when she says, we are, we're got to do any, he didn't to oh I says you know I was hoping she was gonna, you know aha mm, mm, oh that was good of them then, mm sure you know er gotta give praise where it's due you know oh yes you've gotta actually I think they've been very good yeah I mean er considering and they're not really any no relation to you no I mean and she didn't take any money She didn't? No, I check the Aha and mm, mm, oh well it er and maybe the penny's dropped Well maybe well, with er Billy ah that's sort of with him being you know it's, probably he doesn't know anything about it yeah you see so oh well that was good, I'm, I just thought though yesterday when I got up and I've seen the weather, good grief Jimmy's never gonna go out in this like you know Well I open the cor when I look I says oh dear you can't do er in this oh it was lashing, the rain was lashing against the window Yeah, mm, mm well you cannae put an umbrella up or anything No you can't cos er, it's, it's just a waste of time I didn't fancy getting soaked, not after getting, just getting over the flu With you just getting rid of the flu, hardly I just don't seem to be quite right yet though can it there's so people in the hairdressers this morning was I'd been up you know I couldn't get rid of it mm so there's four men who've had a dull headache and they cannot er you know mm, mm you just cannot seem to get it out of your that's what I said system you know, it's so, it's still hanging around in ya mm, mm you know, er, I don't think salt and food help oh well it doesn't does it? either what you do, now what you do This is the thing you do not what's been wrong, what's been wrong exactly so I mean er, you know because let's face it, what suits one doesn't always suit another No I mean I could say well I could go on a diet, but, er and keep on this sort of thing like Margaret does you know Yeah but, erm, you see the point is that you're not, what suits one doesn't suit another no another thing an'all we are sat here, you know, in the corner near the fire Aha I'm sure I'm getting a lot of fumes coming back out er you said that a couple of weeks ago I mean yesterday after I had me dinner I dropped off to sleep for a couple of hours cos that could cause feeling and you're awake now mm, mm Last night I was sitting er what was I watching? Forget what was on now It was that murder mystery thing on last night wasn't it? Er,that was interesting that, that I, I liked that, him good that Oh, I missed it, I knew there was something, that's when I fell asleep mm, mm I fell asleep just after eight o'clock and I was er, well after ten when I woke up mm, mm and I was saying to myself, why should I be dropping off to sleep like this, it's gotta be fumes you know mm, mm like Jimmy next door, he's always dropping off and he got a vent put in at the bottom of his door, they took the pipe out and behind you had a big open yeah which should of been bricked right the way in that one's got a brick opening like that, that isn't bricked in No, well that's supposed to be bricked right in, so it doesn't allow the fumes to accumulate inside it's it's a good size as well Yeah that size and that's what they've done, all then that done ripped it mm, mm they clamped a big label on, well they didn't clamp one on ours so I take it was mm, mm supposed to be alright mm, mm but over the years you sit there and ya you know well it must be the fumes yeah and what this thing up what's that up there? in the summer it doesn't happen. Well that's supposed to be a vent Er, that's the vent is it? it carried the fumes away Oh I see any surplus fumes around aha, have, have you got one like that? Oh aye but when the bloke went next door to Jimmy's, he, he said where's your vent and Jimmy says there it is up there, ah, and he got up there I thought he says I see you've got a towel up there mm, mm regarding a fire it's no good whatsoever, he says your trouble you're not getting a draught from your yeah, aha from your front door coming through and carrying the fumes away cos it'd have to be circulating around wouldn't it? this part of the fire, he says, Jimmy says well I'll put a label on it then, well why don't ya? You're supposed to break a well that's commonsense he said well that's the trouble you could break the I would say that's dangerous then he says you want a vent in the bottom of your door Door aye, erm so when, when they came the three of them mm, mm Ginger mm, mm he had a lot to say and Jimmy lost his temper with him, you know, and he said look, I'm not surprised yeah, mm, mm forget it says mm, mm on your way he says, I'll get the job done, pay for it and I'll phone you up and you'll have to pay me oh, ee oh that'll be a different kettle of fish and er wouldn't it? Hmm, he's wife says, he says, ooh, er, she was when he, went in the back says I'll be honest, yeah he says you're minding the right , ooh he says er they wanna get erm you know and mm, mm so he went back and he says er, oh he says er he says oh dear like, he says well carry on he says I'll have to take the door off, so he says can you give a hand to hold it, cos he had to cut er this er like and all grown at the bottom of the door you know with mm, mm six inch put one of them metal things in and you put a grid on each side like a plastic grid, you know oh yeah, mm, mm I know and there was only these er little screws, more like a nail with a, a little spiral on mm, mm and what you doing, you didn't screw them in you just break them in oh yeah and the spiral grips the wood you know mm, mm so he says I tell he says, er, he put the card up where the machine is, which he bore a hole in, I've got one of them mach er cutters, you know, a, a saw with a little braid on oh yeah and you can cut all different shapes you know mm, mm mm, mm and he, when you drill a hole in the corner each corner and he just put it on he just oh it were real lovely and it was as simple as that ah yes yes, yeah, aha he didn't clear, clear the hole or nowt he didn't mm, mm when he put the grid in that, that caused I see you know, took an hour down and he just got that done, but I, I've meant to ask him if those have made any difference, you know, having done in yes the, griding that brick in mm, mm but er, that is the trouble, half of these are not been put in properly and the fumes are coming back over well it, it could cause the many a couldn't it? and that's, I'm sure I put over the years Mm where you're sitting in and she used to nod away I know she used to say that aye, and er, when you wake up ooh you're your throat's pouring, you're hot you've gotta get up Stands to reason doesn't it? and stand at the back That's right the, you know to cool off what I do know before time, I woke up er phew the you know mm, mm and lovely, I just woke up, er a couple of minutes before then the insurance lad come cos when I only, he should of come yesterday and I waited in but I couldn't, you know when I opened the door I says I, I he says, you know aha, mm, mm where you been, I says where you been, aye he says aye he says, my fault he says I didn't get round did I? So, this tiler were there with that you know, I says well why, you know and er I went back in and I turned the fire off altogether Well it's sensible cos it's certainly cos it wasn't, it wasn't that cold you know in the room, so I says well I, I wanna create more fumes, which one am I locking up? it seems fairly warm I still think it's nice and warm Well you don't get much draught cos the fr well the front door see that's the door here yeah, mm, mm you come in our front door there, that was a passage, when you get a draught from the front door, it passes this door and it goes straight to the back, down the stairs and back it's what you call straight through to the very end of the mm, mm you see mm, mm door, one door to another door that's right you get a straight through draught, from the front door through the passage, then it doesn't into here not do and then it goes through to the back, now his, although it looks similar the same as our house when you open the door here mm his front door, the same, you've got er the stairs going up there mm but, when you go into the passage his door, he's got the door into the front room, same as ours, on the left, but when you get into the bottom of the passage, there's a brick wall in front of ya, and it comes round and his door to the back dining room is on this side here oh yeah, mm so he doesn't get a straight through draught like me no you not do by having that wall at the bottom that's right of course the draught always follows where there a, you know, two doors mm, mm two windows open that's true but when ya, when you stand at the front door and er there's a blower breeze and it's cold, if you put your hand round the door like that, you can feel a draught, you can feel it colder than the you know and the letter box, the draught but if you take that and put a curtain up, it'll keep the cold out, you've stopped the draught so you're gonna win The draught from that's, yeah so you're not sure whether you're doing the right thing or not Yeah so you know so it's true mm, mm I said I dunno what to do for the best so, I just leave things the way they are and er hopefully that er you get some warm days where you needn't have the fire on, so you don't have fumes you know true mm, mm if well you're better again Jim, you've got the fire er so you put the fire, you put the fire off, well this central heating comes from the back of that fire doesn't it, so if you've got the central heating on and you've got it on full Aye blast for the water, won't you get the fumes just the same as what you do from the fire? No, because because the fire at the back is actually at the bottom of the chimney Ah I see yeah, yeah if this here is in the room innit? mm, that's right So you'll have fumes of course it is that's right and so, where the fumes from the central heating coming back through the side here go? By the side here They got your central heating for your water Yeah in, behind the wall there yes of course that's right and that's in the front you know the fuse it's come oh your fuse is all at the back the yeah pull it up the chimney mm, mm now that's the difference yeah I mean that's right you can it's er coming into the room isn't it? you can tell er what a draught is like in that room, I shall tell you when comes Mm, mm and they'll be here half an hour or three quarters of an hour, he smoked four cigarettes, now it takes all day and all night to get rid of them fumes of his cigarettes mm, mm they travel up the stairs your, you knew this room and when, with being in it all the time you, you know you, your nose gets mm, yeah well if you went out the back for ten minutes and it's strong and you come back, er and you come back in here you would smell it again that's right, of course you would, mm, mm and that's how you can tell there's no draught because the smoke can't go out anywhere mm, mm it's trapped, I mean I, I open me front erm front window aye, yes and I opened up back mm, mm two of the, two of the little window yes and I left the door open here mm, mm that's the only way you can get to try and drive mm, mm but even , it took all day to er, to get a mm, mm there was still that little smell of that, it's yes got a funny smell that smoke you know I hate the smell of it er, er the cigarette, tobacco an'all I hate the smell of cigarettes since I've packed in smoking I cannot stand it it's got a funny mm, mm smell now, but er I can't understand how the war and the would cigarettes years ago, you know, and they start that yeah, yeah get it and er they've brought the full and then they say if you must smoke, smoke then with a filter tip one and that that's right will half, chop of the nicotine and whatever you know mm, mm just, but that wasn't good enough the bloke that wrote in he says oh later on, er even the filter is no good that's right cos, yeah, the if you take you'll still get cancer er the cigarettes to bits that's black inside yeah you'll still get it to you, you'll still get cancer with it cos er, it's coming through and you're still getting it on your chest mm well you cannot win mm, mm no if I remember rightly, during the war when the only cigarette that had the filter and it wasn't a filter, oh it was a You'd have to suck yes, that's right no, it wasn't a filter, all it was on the end of a cigarette what you put in your mouth, it was a cork tip, but there was no filter, no filter inside it, the tobacco come right to the end that's right all that cork tip was for was to stop it on your lips stop it sticking to your lips yeah that's right, cos you know er you know yes, that's right I think it were the first ones to come out really, yeah er, er introduced er later on, but the one filter all it was, was a cork tip yeah, mm, mm you know yes that's right I'm sure have it, as time's getting on the they seemed to be introducing more health things in I think that now that, tobacco er vegetables all the likes of that is different now what it was forty, fifty years ago Oh because they're treating all these things that we are eating mm, mm drinking mm, mm er what people smoking and treating 'em all with these new chemicals and that's what's doing you the harm aye of course it is er I mean we smoked before the war of course I mean that is there was me why now? mm, mm why are people being spoke it's because they know at the end of the day it's what they're bombarding all these things what we are it's a shame mm, mm taking into our bodies with and that's what's causing all the trouble you see it all stands to reason you know last week when I said that Margaret had food you know what it was? Could of been allergic to something was she? She'd had some tomatoes and er she never washes them all she don't do that Oh yeah, aye, aha and it was later on when she'd had a couple of tomatoes . and she couldn't realize how she come out in these she went to the doctor and he says well you must be allergic to summat mm and she couldn't think what it was and she got a as well, she says er have you eaten any fruit or tomatoes or any, oh she said tomatoes she says did you wash them? She says no, I just, you know mm, mm she said well it happened to me, it's the chemicals on the skin of the fruit and the tomatoes, that's what brought your spots on and after a couple of days or whatever they went away. mm, yeah Aye well look at some of the apples you were getting round about Christmas, they had brought them in, they had polished them and put that spray on to make them look shiny yeah yeah that wax, and erm, I mean they were, they'd brought them in before Christmas so that they could sell 'em mm if they'd keep for Christmas that's why they charged so much for them, those Mackintosh reds and that, and I mean it told you then in one of those magazines that were, John was reading that he said make sure that you wash those apples before you eat them. Where has those tomatoes gone, if you remember them, they used to be big ones an'all they were mm, mm a deep red they were nice, they and the skin you just had to press the skin and, and the oh it was all, you know you could just eat it eat it just the way it was oh with a bit of salt but they're not like that now what's hap the tomatoes you can't, the tomatoes you can't, they're hard mm, mm you cut it through with a knife mm, mm and underneath the skin it's got another, like a skin and neither would exactly what's happening with the tomatoes is that tomatoes where they gone? mm, mm, mm, mm I cannot er, the stuff's not the same as it used to be nowhere near you see it's got no, they're telling you this and telling you that, it's them that's doing this but they're creating more food, food by, to create more food they're bombarding all your food with chemicals you know all sorts you know yeah the food and it's not doing you any good of course it's not of course I mean you cannae go and do, know that a, a decent er banana, apple there's nothing in the taste what's happened to all the, the stuff in, you know you could pick them up and just eat them straight away yeah and you know you cannot er I mean er it's having to of course it is, apparently say what they like about the Green Party but at least that's one thing they're doing something I mean something major but they are cos they can't why don't they just let the stuff grow naturally? mm, mm mm, mm I mean that, that have to hold top and bottom, you put something in the soil and it gets all its nourishment in the soil and that mm, mm and it grown and that's it, no, they've gotta bombard it with chemicals and all sorts, they want more and more but what's the good of producing more and more, but all these people all over the world dying of hunger of course and what happened mm, mm they produce more and more and there's more then wasted and thrown in the bin and it's on the mm, mm on er, these of bruised fruit oh that's true and nobody's getting it and, and the worst war shall why, why me water, gonna waste water that's a fact yeah that's true plus the price of it,I mean, you know but you know that er our Susan wanted to go down to erm, get her hair done this morning so erm I says to her come up here, we'll get a taxi from here we'll go down the hairdressers and shall permission to to collect our money, so we got a taxi from here down to erm what they call that street where er that erm oh dear me Street Aye so you went with them so you have to aha oh so you had to go right round and come down the mud down yeah Street that was er mm that was cut off there anyway to cut a long story short when we got down there I says to him what's the damage? And he says erm er, one pound eighty and I says to him what? He says one pound eighty, er paid him like and erm, you could of a tip mm I tell ya, so I think we got out, we got our hair done and she wanted to go down to the mission so the hairdresser phoned a different taxi, we have this one up here, he took her down from there to the mission, cos he went down the back ways, you know, yeah which was quicker, took her down to the mission, she stayed in the car till I went up to the mission to get our money signed for our money and come out and er yeah he brought us straight back here, so we got to the door, I says well how much did he say? Cos I got out and opened the door mm she says three pound fifty, I says what? She says three pound fifty she says that was from taking us down from there and sitting waiting, well I mean I was only in about, well I wasn't in five minutes So you paid one eighty to ? three pound, aha And you paid three fifty from, you know down and back up here? aha Yeah well, well, well from here to Street it's what four hundred yards? mm, mm, mm, mm Four, four yeah hundred and fifty yards so it just shows you, it started off at one pound twenty on the meter that was mm when we first went down yes and I, I mean Jimmy it was only last Friday I went down to have me hair done and I walked from the hairdressers down to Street to get the wallpaper yeah, mm, mm erm, so I couldn't carry the wallpaper so the lass says well you can't carry it, she says I'll phone you a taxi, I says okay, so she phoned this, she says any, any particular one, I says I'll have that one beside us like so phoned association, they'll be erm, you, you know call up and they came and er pick me up and brought us back with the paper, he charged one pound twenty and I'm saying to myself one pound twenty, that's a damn disgrace, by hell I'll not get that taxi again mm but you see they must of gone up oh they went up last year, er, I just forget now, so much on the mile er but I mean you cannot tell me that, that I can't remember what the, what actually went up, but er you know that's disgraceful that yeah and so that was from erm Street down to the and down the back so it wouldn't take, didn't take him a couple of minutes down to the mission mm and I mean he just sat there yeah I got out and walked across, come back I think er, they're you know I think what it was and when, when for a two mile journey it would be, would three pound twenty or something like that mm, mm you know mm, mm there would, but er yeah I mean it's a disgrace if you hop on a bus for thirty two, yeah thirty two mm, mm aye direct from mm, mm and, if you're going along they're own two and a half, you know mm, mm it's forty then going that way, but when you think of the taxi, gee I think it's a disgrace you know that that, you know I didn't mind paying it, but if I want a taxi, heck I think that's a disgrace cor I would I wouldn't of paid that of course, but I were who's going to the money in who for a duck, who's gonna the money in? They didn't say, they don't tell ya do they? They say that I mean if you see owt, there was a letter in the Gazette seeing that they had er the petrol had gone up and aye and other things had gone up so they had to put the fares up, but I mean that's, you cannae tell me that that's right but then then they expect a tip oh aye I know on top of that I can't understand it I mean do, alright, have, but if the petrol's gone up, it hasn't gone up that much aye, of course not I mean, they could say that every, every other week, er that's true enough oh well such and such went up you know and er mm, mm what it costs, I mean Jimmy next door he was telling us yesterday when he come to er, we, we yeah, aye, yeah I wonder ee, cos the pain is too strong aye well I go to the doctor's on Monday er a, and so I'll not be going to our Ann's this yeah weekend aye fair enough I'll drop it off on Monday I think he said er he, he's gotta pay his road tax this week and I think he said it was two hundred and seventy five I knew that I've gotten some, some of it he shopped around and he said that he got er I think he says he got it for sixty pound less I think it is, yeah ooh oh I mean er I thought it would be all one price er, unless I picked a aye, aha maybe but er maybe the insurance fees and insurance and er probably aye, it could be, aye, what sort of cover you have that's it, and they do, you can shop around for the insurance and that like yeah, yeah cos it's always advertised on the telly aye he says he says well I think they're expensive car now apart from anything and I wouldn't make it, take I know it is take a car on the road and that's what I say he oh God he's taken that son-in-law you know he's mm, mm picking him up, taking him, bringing him from Sunderland er, when he wants him he just phones him up, can you come up with now, and he's a bloody driver you know and er oh yeah aye and er he thinks he's just at his beck and call yeah he here's a couple of pound for ya tt he says, he says I've put ten pounds' worth of petrol in the car every week and there's not one of them says there's a couple of pound towards the petrol or nowt oh no no just er run them here, run them there mm, that's it you see, he, he cannae get a car because it's ah the drink aye the he gets, if he's not driving he's in the van, you know mm, mm oh yeah, mm, mm mm, mm and er he says there's me, one in mention it any time you know that's it, aha well now that it's you know aha, I think he just work? Is that the one that's a long distance lorry driver oh aye, yeah I always thought that was his grandson no that's his er son-in-law, he married the youngest daughter oh he's, oh I see ah and er er well he, he, I think he goes in the, the army at one time mm, mm, mm, mm but now he's poor Dougy wouldn't tackle him now no he would er nineteen and a half stone he popped his head in the door when I went to see Jimmy oh yeah and that mm, mm oh but er, you see the job he's got is nay good is it? no he's sitting all the time er, sitting doing job mm, mm driving it's nay good, it's nay good to anybody, you get no exercise that's it and all you do is you put weight on mm, mm put weight on mm, mm and if you like you, like your drink ah well it's more weight, weight you gain you cannae well it's, this is it, of course it is you cannae get away from it that's true but and they like their cup of tea they've never had a cup of tea aye is it? hard to tell, I just er had a quick cup of tea when I was there quarter past. When er they coming to do your stairs? Erm, I think he said, I er, you know when I phoned erm when you were here last time Oh aye, yeah not last Friday, Friday three weeks that's true and said you can definitely put the thirteenth down on your, in your diary yeah well that's er all, that's, so that's a week come Monday third today eh? aha, aye it's er fourth Er fourth fourth tomorrow cos our John's birthday tomorrow mm so erm, and er I, so you didn't see the paper? No cos you weren't here last Satur Friday were ya? No were ya? I can't remember. Aye I was here Were ya? erm So you'd seen the paper then? er I think I did I cannae Say I can't remember I know I was cos aye cos you were, you were on the phone aye that's right of course that's right didn't ya had the last, said you were out that's right and they'll phone you back yeah he'd phone back aye, yeah mm, that was the week before you weren't here the week before that's it Well I thought our John might of been here yesterday, but he didn't come No of course it wasn't a very nice day I grant the, but erm, I thought he'd of been here ah it were a bit rough er ee you think he thought twice, yeah well it got just eased of a little bit and I thought oh well I'd make it, so I hopped up to get me erm pension erm and I just got down here when it started again and I came around the front from there and I came around the front I was soaking er Fancy a corned beef sandwich Jimmy? Or can you not eat corned beef? No, I'll just have a cup of tea thanks, well I just turned away, you know Well I've er takes a lot in but I don't want it digesting doesn't it corned beef? Er Well I don't like it, but I'll tell ya what I done I opened a tin of corned beef Yeah and I used half of it and I put it, put some onion and some sliced potatoes in the oven yeah and it was quite tasty and I thought I'd stick it in there I think to appreciate it I think you've gotta cook it yeah, oh, oh aye yeah put it yeah, I cannot eat it by itself, I couldn't eat every tin I get, I usually I couldn't have a couple of sandwiches oh I couldn't and I'd have a heap load left no and I used to give it to yeah er for the dog you know mm, mm, mm, mm and er I waste more than I eat because I, I don't know why I get it, do ya know what I do? I get two sli two of the big slices from the ah yes, yes from the cool counter mm, mm counter there yes I know the and I have er, there were six ounces you know that mm, mm I could have done mm, mm but there were the, I get them with the four big slices and one slice see mm, mm you know with, got to four, five minutes, I would just mm, mm but I couldn't eat a lot because I don't like it in the sandwiches I wouldn't eat it How d'ya know if you don't but I don't like sandwiches,like, you know I don't know what it is, but, you know when you think, it just hasn't got that taste now it's I just had that's how I feel and you know there's no, I mean when we bought stuff forty, fifty years ago give you they tell me the oh,yeah this is some that but, how d'ya know this, they've bombarded everything yeah I mean a piece of cheese fifty year ago mm, mm you could sit er eat it you know eat it like that you couldn't now but now it's no it's all er been, er it's like plastic isn't it? aye It all taste the same to me they've been got at tastes just like plastic I mean it takes you all your time to find a good nice potato an'all It does, you're right there yeah I got a bag of potatoes, the ones, say I thought erm this morning, I'd, I'd open a tin of corned beef actually it was an accident I er forgot that, what, I was opening a tin of corned beef for, erm, I was gonna make a salad when I realized that I didn't like corned beef No our Susan does, I didn't and I thought well I, I, when I come back I'll not feel like eating this no salad, so I thought cut it up and in slices and put it in the casserole with some onions and an Oxo Cube yeah and erm whatever you may need a stock and that and put sliced potatoes in it and some carrots and then on the top I've put sliced potatoes and left them on top of the casserole, well later on when I came home I just took the lid off and stuck in the top of the oven instead yeah the middle and I crisped the taters on the top and it was lovely yeah it was really tasty, but I've been So when do you go to see the nurse then? Oh er It's next week? Tell me fortnight next Wednesday what's the Wednesday you go? It was a week ago when I was here Aha a week on Wednesday yeah and she said well make it a month instead of two cos it was a bit ah yeah was a yeah mm so that was like one week mm, mm two weeks next week and two weeks after that oh yeah and so it's a fortnight next Wednesday mm, mm, mm, mm er, you still yes oh I put the date due is on, put, write on the card for ya, I says oh just put on me, I'll be dealing with, oh he says mm, mm I'll just put on here then you went and forgot didn't ya? yeah Should of had it on the card and tucked it in aye your pocket well I rang er, well I four weeks it's oh yeah no time but er it was an odd time because it was er, an extra week aye aye, you see, that's why so it meant that we have been going the last week in each month, er each second month mm, mm there's still a week left and this one's gonna have one of course that's right see mm, mm and that's what er, we had a we never had a of last week end of the month that's right and yet there's another week left, one of which were gone a week into er the last week of February that er mm, mm made it er queer but then I'll need tablets by then an'all, so of course you will see you get them then that's the trouble it means yeah do I go on doing the next aye I know that's two doing here mm, mm or do I, then doing quarter turn aha get at the back of the queue, see the doctor and then see the nurse then see the nurse aye When, when you've finished she says, I'm sure she says you can have all the batteries and they're all, they're all Duracell an'all. Oh are they? I can do with one for me clock We'll, I'll I'll wait until I Mm but, you seen this? four and they're good ones an'all ain't they? I know four, six, eight, ten, twelve Oh well so I'll wait and see aye aha well I'm, I'm almost sure she says yeah cos the one I put in, that was no good well if you, she says you, er keep the batteries, you know aha so, er, these are alkaline, thirty ah alkaline, I says you not use them, you can't leave them you know what I mean? aha And er oh well there you are, fair enough so I bou bought er a jumper and a skirt that was nice That er nice, er what they call them? up date that Jimmy, where d'ya get that from? I just won it in a you not want it? No on the Antiques Roadshow the other week What's that then? the er what you call it? No you switch it on like Well that's, what's, what's that story about now? I don't know what Oh what they call it, the er, what do you call it jewellery aha you know, which who might can you think Oh aye er it seems to be coming into fashion, people buy the, ee, ee these cheap items like rings aha necklaces and all that aha and they're buying 'em paying money for them Yeah isn't it? No On their little finger you can have it erm, as I want, I was gonna tell you something, er did Billy tell you how much weight that lad's ele eleven pound, eleven pound he was I've gone, aye eleven pound, on the eleventh day the lad's eleven pound yeah, yeah you know,Jimmy Aye it is I keep going feeling, feeling sick and going dizzy Aye, she says I'm feeling sick,well that's er all your if your head is what you call it when you feel awful, you know I say if you've been on the, on the drink you know when you get up and your head ooh, well that sets your stomach off, so his trouble's coming from his head, on his stomach I must of this and everything do you know why? The doc the hospital says there's nothing wrong with him Jimmy he looks really ill to me Well I said I said if you're not satisfied aha you go and get a second opinion anywhere you want, nowt ee said he cannae go to another doctor aha or a hospital and ask them to give a good check, what they told us, they daren't seemed to want to bother with people now no they just want to write you a prescription up and right there dunno, he was seeing he's cos er I mean, I mean, I says I didn't want but I, I wouldn't of been back but I would of been getting off that bus now mm but er Barry come off her husband and he said oh you going down oh I says aye, he saves us fifty pence and I got you in your bread and a pie, right, er I want the erm, did Billy take the dishes up? Oh I ask him, he said that when he was here he says oh I'll pick them up another time Well I want I took them off Bill and, you can put them in here, erm yeah yeah, I went out with, I didn't have any gravy yesterday so I thought you would of noticed aha, well I'm, I'm doing er couple of Oxos and I had to thicken it with some self raising flour, it was alright Nice because I wanted gravy on the chicken so he had a good taste er there's your bread then Right I pay that stuff there yes ninety nine pence right so it's er ninety nine pence yours, I do believe ninety nine and that'll do it aye oh it was fifty one in the absolutely, I bet that's on tape Them oranges are nice They're nice weren't they? Aye Aye they were lovely aye they're nice, I got, I've sent aye, that's it I mean I, I was gonna say to her mind our he said or you know oh she didn't see it I'm sure I wouldn't did you see that in that No, I, I wanted things savouries, erm, onions and cheese and, and else mind, cheese and on cheese and onion there's cheese and onion, there was salad cream and erm she said do you want a salad? So I, I, you know I always have a salad for me dinner and I have a salad when I night aye there are, twenty, forty, twenty, forty, sixty but still I've got a hundred pound in there, you have seventy one, seventy two pound worth,plenty stuff erm that's er six, that's thirteen, hmm aye cos that's, that's when I'll be going, er that's when I, erm but Billy says he won't pay the poll tax yeah but I won't pay, I've gotta pay the and that Wednesday yeah you know, on the morning, so if you want any money out on the Wednesday, Wednesday that week dad Aye erm, I've been, erm do you want any money out the bank this week? Well I've just, I've got, let me I'll go down and erm fifty pounds Oh alright but I've been reinstated to twenty three pounds oh well twenty yeah so I'm only one a fortnight, so they took the rest aha another twenty five oh well to er fifteen pound, ninety eight aha yeah so I don't know what this, but having do another twenty then er,the er the pension had gone in there see as well you see I'm cer erm, on the, on the Wednesday or on the Wednesday when, when I go and get your erm, get your money out the bank maybe I'm gonna pay poll tax, Billy pay for it until I get that money out on the Wednesday Oh, oh but you know cos er gone in er, it's gone in this week, but er aha pension well see how, but I'm saying it'll be due, it'll be due the same, the same Oh I just think the will be in there they'll be in the oh yes goes in the sixth end of Sorry do they get that, get that this week or they'll wait till next week? I'll get it next week Right so so I'll be, I'll come down, I'll be, I'll be down tomorrow cos I'm doing mince and dumplings and I'll bring you some down so put that in mm, mm then draw er plus twenty eight pounds' worth plus twenty eight, thirty, so I'll just draw, let me ah forty five I think that's enough so put that cos the following aha forty five right, so I be, I'll come down tomorrow with your mince yeah and dumplings and er I come, on Wednesday I come down, I come down for your right for your, your erm, your pension book and that right so I'll just go out, on erm Thursday I'll just go, I'll bring a tray down on Wednesday an'all aye and then I'll just go straight down there and I'll meet outside the erm outside the yeah erm so you're not going to do yours until next week, er now what department? My poll tax No your aargh Mortgage mortgage oh it's not due until next week oh so that's what I'm saying not this Wednesday but next Wednesday I'll be going down straight in the morning yeah so you wanna, if you want the banks, I'm going to the bank then but to pay the insurance yeah man, but this week I'm going Thursday, and I'll meet you in, outside I'll, I don't know if they want a this week aha forty five and then I'll have the money to give you straight away for a aha, that's right couldn't I? well Billy, Billy says well take that Yeah and then he'll come back and then he er gone and pay that, he, he go and get his his sickness, note that from work and that yeah you know, Jimmy you haven't, you wouldn't have any paracetamols you can give us would ya? You can have a box Cos I haven't if you like I haven't got any and I've got a terrible headache and I then you're very I, I, I only took four these are, these are separate it's erm I phoned erm I phoned me friend up you know and erm on Friday and asked and she said you don't sound very well, I said I've got a headache I said I've had a headache every, cos I've been on a diet and she turned round and said, she said you know she says it's funny she says erm, you know what's with us, what's it with? She says oh she says erm with erm, covering up, covering up that, up the Coke, er, I mean I've done Coke by years and years and years, I say Aye the de decaff in it oh aye, yeah it's like a drug aye she says take about two or three with it, get, get out the system, the cough, it just pains in me head all the time, I mean I've never known headaches all well that's what I say in all tablets and that if you take 'em for long you'll become addictive to them that's it, I was, I was, I must of been addictive to the Coke aye cos I couldn't do without it no so that must be, that must be that there caffeine in the Coke yeah, oh I'll give ya the rest of them there are okay er ninety oh good than ninety, hmm I don't know oh They've been telly that Tom give us, that give us and then I didn't put on aye, I looked at you know what I mean it was er, what they call? It was here weren't it? er Tom says that that was where that apparently he said to us all come up eh that but he was just last, last, but last year aye and that was the name of the race,national, this year it was the ,was running it aha in for it,drinking at and last year the coincidence was and there was a horse in the race called the year the, the wi the winner a woman I know a man bought a horse eighty thousand, aye and give it to her, now it's won the race aye she's won the trophy and ninety nine thousand odd pounds for winning the race, so she's, careful of that, there's all the rest there oh ta, I you want one of these for your I have not I, I, I've put all mine in I what, it's just that the, the clock it's go it's, it's going tt, tt, tt mm cos it's, it's, it's run out and all the noise things it's one to one aye a pig pig I'll give you hand and I'll put, I'll put me so I'll er, I give that to the er Jim put the erm,stand will it Jimmy? aye putting them in erm they'll be wanting for tomorrow see yeah I miss it, I missed it on Sunday, they bring me yorkshire puddings in What? I mix it, I mi I mixed that, missed it that jug Oh, aye put my yorkshire puddings in Did Les do your peas? Les do your peas? any peas I say I've got some mind you I didn't have, left the dumpling at mine, I've got a load erm dumpling mix, you've, a great big load for forty three no fifty, fifty three pence from erm the place up erm yeah they just scoop it in a bag and there's loads in it, probably make loads of dumplings with it it's got the flour and suet with it, you just mix it up aha aye, cos you pay forty odd pence for a little packet why, I was what they call it? Er, yorkshire pudding I mix up exactly to the book you know and I just realized the er er what they call it now, the bonus ah well what they call it, you know it does one to nine and it aha next the high ha whether you put it on number two or number nine or high it's still the same, flame oh that's what Dougy done when he, that Saturday afternoon when he was and that at the no, over over, cos all the buttons have been knocked off the end you know oh right the one for the, what the call it, it's all bent, er grill and er he must of banged er, what he call that one er oven one that's probably not so and er and didn't realize it all the time I was wondering how it was in three, an hour and three quarters, two hours and inside was still er raw, an hour and burnt it, what er twenty minutes twenty minutes aha I said that was in an hour and three quarters that's I went I took it out aye the same as still er raw and it didn't dawn on me, but then, oh I says it's gotta be, I said it's gotta be the aye that on high would, the flame would be leaping up, I don't turn it right up oh the flames so I says it's gotta wait, so well if you want to I'll make some yorkshire puddings on Sunday for ya I tell you oh dear, I don't mind and er get a couple of hours, but er, it does eventually get to the middle aye but it shouldn't, it shouldn't take er it shouldn't take that long aye couldn't of been don't take long just twenty minutes aye mine go, mine go phew like that I says it's gonna be a worry for aye aye but you, can you do? I know till you get a new cooker, er, how does you aye it's a new cooker, a new one Jimmy no oh I carpets and what have you you know I think you can make do as long as you've got one, you know why it and the pots are alright yeah, well I mean I can cook you a, a meal on it, but if you can't, you can't can ya? as long as it's clean Jimmy that's it, the main thing isn't it? aye well, aye ooh well it's amazing that er, that hoover er, er that, it's there's alright, it's just here they're wanting that I know you see, through walking, the weight in your feet aha you walk all the years, the rubber underneath aye comes up through the carpet that's the worse thing rubber, rubber here Jimmy I mean look at this on here I know, I know I mean look at this I know it was brand new here, look at that I know, see the worst thing in, in a sitting room the carpet Jimmy aye in a bedroom it's alright yeah you know it's the worse thing see with this it's gone just there, and there a bit aye right up the stairs, the passage and er I noticed that on the stairs not too bad you know, that hardly gets used, er see that, that come aha, well that carpet we've got in the sitting room you know, it was, it was twelve hundred pound, only put it down a few, er a few months before we yeah we went in, you know, and that was the place an'all even the carpet that's twelve hundred pound, cos they showed us the bill, you know er it's been a it's dirty and that but you know that wants, wants a good washing you know I forget what all this cost but er, well, five year ago it wouldn't of been aye half of what it is now no I know and I was afraid picking it up aha from the aye aha Terry I remember aye then it changed to Tommy's aye, aha and that's where we got it, cos then my mum used to get from Alan's oh yeah she used to get all our Christmas presents from Alan's and that, you know yeah you know but er that's where we went to in there and he's not sleeping either and he's tossing and turning, oh at night, he keeps you awake you know yeah so that day at erm, it was two weeks' time that day erm tt, think is on er Robocop Robocop, both starting next month Robocop aye at erm, I think the following erm of yeah but I, I don't know if you want a tape, there's a carry film on, erm,it's er, it's a family and they go away for Christmas, you know, and er the little lad gets left by his self Jim mm and you know the things he gets up to, he, well there's two burglars trying to get into the house, well, he shoots, he shoots them down there both got their little pop guns and that and he, and he flings irons at them and that and, and marbles and ee, ee, you know, then the mother realizes like when she's on the plane that she's left her son at home er, the, the film's, the film's good, don't you feel like anything like that? No Well as long as it is a good comedy aha but if it's a poor comedy it's just about a little lad that you know yeah yeah I was reading in the, in er, in that paper that you give us, you know, I was reading soaps and that mm Tom er that little Sam erm said she doesn't want him back or something yes you know she didn't want a and erm, she, er, he gets lost in the bush ee and erm, she's desperate at the end or something, she for good or something but she does get him at the end or summat, at er E Street, E Street started last night, it's on Sky, erm, it seems canny E Street? E Street I say it's canny, but erm soap Aye it's a soap story you know, there's a few, there's a few of erm Sons and Daughters in it Jimmy mind, there's loads of Sons and Daughters in it aye and some of Neighbours, Jason Donovan's father's in it, you know erm, er aye aha ones that well it's, it's it's on at one o'clock, one o'clock and er it's on erm half past six tonight, well I've taped it at half past six tonight and after everybody's watched the news I've, I watched it after, er, you know, so, I watch it then an hour I've got some of them things for do ya? er, I haven't opened the packet yet, I just thought if you wanted to try one, you stick them on a radiator or you know you know er, it's funny since I've been on a diet er, it is, I must be getting, now where You know it's funny when I've been up when I've been on a diet, I mean smelling, smoked out, smoked out on the house and the house is ruined I know it seems to get under these er ah double floors ah and it seems to carry on up the stairs aha and you cannot shift it aha, see he used to smoke at work, cos he only comes round yeah and you can't tell me it's stopped smoking well that's safety you know what I mean no yeah and then take the if they, asking people to stop breathing aye you got, you know, you've gotta put up with it and er is that what we got from aye, better so, er ah sooner the didn't you want that? I thought there was two or three of these easy Oh to re-fill you know oh yeah when I get home I am I'll just stick that in the there's er a, a pie I'll stick that, I stick that take that back an'all, and, stick it on here then stick in your radiator, that's only a weather chart really to put that in, so you have any I'll stick it on top of the radiator I don't think we'll need this er holder ooh sent that back look, you just put one of them in there mm, mm er aha I put it on top of your radiator I put your bag up there, it's not a yeah, with that er no, what time does the post office open Jimmy? er At quarter to? quarter to I think Mm, mm I'd of put them in the, even with these new glasses I these dark ones, you know the dark ones I had to put them on this morning I had to put these dark glasses on cos the light hurt me eyes, so I had to put these on put on reading, er glasses Jim aye why, don't want a carpet on there, he says I dunno want a carpet oh have ya? oh I've got plenty of You've got fix it first yeah oh look at no I've got a I've got a, what they call it?erm inch aha inch square, you take the backing off and you can oh aye stick things on the, on the wall aha like in a little square, I've got a load of them in there, I'll just use that one of them oh well I've got loads of Blu-Tack and that which er I, I stick me er gnome's head on yesterday with the Blu-Tack, the dog had knocked it off again, so behind and er, and er I know, how much did them cost ya? One, four, nine Oh well it wasn't that bad then Jim no, cos I feel I'm being yeah, er, design I can never be to a boiler or storage heater for the winter also the heater would activate the till the heat I put I said to him and the heat and the heat activates the I put the oh I put that begins working bedroom, bathroom, middle room or even in the on a Did Billy take, ooh forget me for me bedroom Yeah I think I'll have to get a new curtain rail it's that the plastic snapped been on the curtain ring yeah tt oh, I said to Billy I said instead of getting one of them plastic ones, I may get one of them wooden ones, just, you know sort of like dear the wooden ones A wooden er wood, the wooden, the wooden reels you know, why I got, I did oh, er, er the round ones yeah yeah You'll want the screws with them don't ya? Cos you cannae get them straight in like that Aha it's strong enough cos, cos when you take it off there oh it's opening in a aha so you've gotta hold it and get a bracket then whether er the ones they've got in the back and the one in the front there switch ones, is it switch? no, it's the but they're better aha they're round a week well Billy bought that er bra ah aluminium well Billy bought that er brass one you know by, by the patio and that wooden one was already up mm and I, I, Billy said I don't know what it is mm, see the what? it's been going around and around here for the last four days er I bet it's been coming round the block up this street about eight to ten times a day, I dunno what's it doing, the up here It's mad, it's mad it's not too bad but er, I cannot understand on the road aha it'll be ano well another half an hour it'll be back on the road again hmm, so that post office, I says to Billy I won't be long and I'll do you some rice mm then I took the dog for a walk aye gee listen to the bones rattling me knees and back aha mm, I'll be done tomorrow, you, erm ah, right, aye I've had er your dinner Oh this changing put them on pot lid, I'll put them on pot then put them Yeah it's alright in oh housewife aha er he said I'll mm, mm accent North East you taught yourself did ya? with just friends yeah, mm taught yourself right it's alright so you've got everything then have you? Yes, aye I phoned them up Oh did you? When that then? trying to get through the, he says oh them people have left here, now you'll have to, and he gives us another two numbers and that, I got through on one of the numbers and then er, I asked I says oh I says I didn't get me photograph and me plastic wallet, he says well you don't really need them you know when you retired, but I says how can you go on the train, you sure of that? Anybody I know cos he was up and coming I know and you'll so you must have to show er some identi besides that oh if you're not gonna use your it's a pity cos I mean if we put, if, if Billy went away on I could use it Well I, that's what I say to it's, it's not a I mean your four door and the, the plastic pass is in one side aye the photo is in this side with identi number and your photo just a pity because Bil Billy couldn't get away with that Jimmy yeah, but anyway probably would of saved him money wouldn't it? aye, but anyway you know, it's not advisable because if we I know if you are caught then well Billy got, got er I think last time remember, erm, when er oh yeah on the fam on, on the family so anyway they're gonna send it through oh well they're gonna send it through aha the lad said oh we'll send it through, you know and address oh well they were gonna send it to in Gateshead you know that's what I've got down aha oh well so I'm glad that's fixed and I'll what's oh if he's got them What's this? Oh aye from seven in the morning till ten at night aha, well I says to Billy we'll go shopping eh a couple of minutes I don't know if Billy's got, cos I dunno if we're getting stuff down again I dunno what we're doing, it all depends, it all depends what I want, cos their chicken, chickens, chicken down there are only one pound odd yeah you know they'll be free anyway this that's what I'm saying this time of day, day, er ask, cos it's, sometimes he gets sometimes he gets tired now Jimmy you know and er yeah you know, say, say on Thursday I had, I had the trolley and I had a basket and I was just putting your stuff in the basket yeah and put my stuff in the trolley and that, you know oh, it'll be a lot easier to get your stuff an'all aha and be the three were to carry it out so I bother aha, that's, so I did, cos this week well maybe on a diet I'll, I'll just get salad stuff and, you know when you, I'll just get the mince and er shops that shops that and I'll just get me frozen stuff at the, you know, just at the yeah job lot and the chicken, the chicken's erm, what I think one thirty nine or something, you know and you can get a just a nice size yeah there was a chicken leg left there and er, I know yeah and it was carrying oh the cheese I eat mm er, you can taste it, you know oh well then er, and the oranges were nice and juicy I thought er er, I, I've and I've got got three oranges and three apples left aye well that'll do for today, tomorrow and Wednesday mm you know for me diet and that yeah but I have two cheese sa two cheesy sandwiches, and col coleslaw for my dinner and erm I don't have I have chicken on, on erm a, cos what you call it? I bought some lovely sausage in next door,grill a couple of slices and just have it erm, with the, by the time that with chicken you know mm could you have salad with that? Sausage on, could have salad with sausage or not? Well, cold or hot you know, unless you've had your er Cos it your sausage gone cold but I couldn't no it wouldn't couldn't see eating salad with a, a hot sausages you know oh but er, you, you would with, what they call it now? Pasta Ah I may just have me chicken out and keep the sausage for another day yeah I say it's been out the, been out the, she defrost that Saturday night and you know like you I made some aye and so I just need my salad stuff till another time mm you know aye I'll see what I'm gonna have yeah I could of brought that piece of chicken down, you could of had it ooh Christ sorry door alright I want to sorry door, I'll see you tomorrow then when I come down right right Okay just give me some Yeah okay yeah. Five minutes preparation You can if you want to. Okay. You've got another couple of minutes. asked about tea it's not happening. There is some tea out there, it's not a fresh pot Yeah? Yeah. Er no thank you, no I've got my orange. Do you want one Martin? Thank you. Erm yes go on then I'll have one. Take sugar? No thank you. So you're clear what you're gonna have to do yeah? I think so, yeah. Okay. Just do as best you can. Can't ask for any more. I, I just I just got prepared for Steven though. You're just a little bit more awkward than the other two . I know. Only doing what you've got to do obviously but Yeah. So if you can hack me you can hack anything. So did you stay to the end of the er the disco? Cos you were doing a, a merry jig there. I quite enjoyed it actually, it wasn't too bad. Mm. Mark erm Roger stayed Did he? Yes he went erm after the girl of his dreams. Blonde haired with the black dress is it? She Did she? Mm. Ooh. Yeah. Yeah cos she was staying here. Really? Oh she left this morning, yeah, cos he said goodbye to her this morning that's right. Yeah Yeah. I think it's best described as wet and warm. Good, thank you very much. I actually went back upstairs and because, I mean although, I mean I was dancing and it was a late night, I hadn't been drinking so, you know, although I was, I was tired, you know I hadn't been drinking and erm so I actually felt erm wide awake So I've got the feedback so I'll go through Great. from the, the exam. Anyway Is everybody getting theirs tonight? No no no but theirs'll come, they'll be sent up I didn't, never thought to ask. I never thought to ask but one was er was seventy nine percent so I don't, he was So whenever you're ready then. Right. Hold on I haven't tested yet. Oh alright then. Am I in shot here? Yeah you're alright there. You're both in. Are you timing Bill? Er yeah. Just press the button and I'll take the time. Okay? Are you ready? Oh. Right. Okay, oh no I've got to be able to Okay? Okay. Yeah it's running now. It's running. Mhm. Mhm. Okay Mr Woodcock, thank you for that information erm Yeah. tell me what arrangements have you got your with your employer if you were on long term sickness? Erm well I'm in the scheme, the company pension scheme and I think they give er I think it's six months' full pay and six months' half pay. Right. So have you got any after that? Er what after the twelve months has gone you mean? Yeah. No. No I, I thought erm the State will er will cover us then as far as, well cover me anyway. Mhm. Do you know how much the State pay is ? Erm I think it's about two hundred pounds a week isn't it? Erm no you're just a little bit out there actually, it's fifty six pounds and ten pence. No no no. No we've had er because this was erm a, a, a of erm concern here that we felt you know what's gonna happen after the twelve months and I'm pretty sure we had a circular round that said we would get two hundred pounds a week. I'm pretty sure. Can you tell me where you actually got that information from? From our wages and salary department. Right. And have you got a copy of that? Er I haven't unfortunately, no, but I'm pretty sure it said two hundred pounds a week. Right. Well the actual State er the statutory sick pay is fifty six pounds ten pence per week erm it is no more than that but I would be interested to see the, the leaflet that you actually got from work. But are you sure of that then? So where, so how do you know you're right and I'm wrong? Well that is the, that is the erm the government guidelines that are actually set down and that's what they pay out is fifty six pounds ten pence per week Yeah? and that is inflexible, it wi it will not change Mm. and erm obviously I mean that, that is only for employed people as well Mm. and er it depends on whether your national insurance contributions Right. Yeah. Well I felt sure it was two hundred pounds a, a week. No fifty six pounds ten pence per person. Mm. Okay well I don't really but then carry on. Okay. If we can go on to what you think you would need in, in the case of long term sickness, how much do you think you would need per week to get by? To get by? Mm erm ooh how much would I need? I suppose well my salary basically. As much as I'm on now I would've thought. Okay. Your wife, do you know what your wife's cover is? Erm well she has got a small policy she took out with But what about the employment arrangements? Erm I think it's on a, a similar basis to er to ours, a similar sort of six months but I think it's er roughly about the same yeah. Okay. Well it's either three or six months but er it's, it's similar to what we have but I know she took her own little policy out. Right. And in ca erm in the event of long term sickness you reckon your wife again would need salary? Erm yeah I suppose you could sa yeah I'd say that, yes. Okay. You say your wife's got erm an insurance policy to er to cover for long term sickness? Yeah she has, yeah. Do you know the details of that? I think it's with Sun Alliance she took it out with. Okay and er do you know what the benefits will be paying ? It wasn't a lot, not a lot erm I think thirty pounds a week, something like that. Do you know if there's a deferred period of payments? What's that? Right what that is is erm usually when you take out erm health insurance cover the payments will be deferred for a specified period of time, that could be four weeks, eight weeks, it could be six months, twelve months so the Oh right. payments would only start after that deferred period. Right I think it's about twelve months I think it was. Okay. Okay and do you know whether it's erm a level term or whether it would be increasing term? Whether it would What does that mean? be, she would get the same amount paid per week or you can have the increasing one where it would increase erm in line with inflation. I think it's level, I think the, the benefit just stays the same cos the, the cost hasn't increased it's been like that for oh she's been paying round about twelve pounds a month now for as long as I can remember. So I'd assume, all things being equal, that if the premiums are the same then the benefit doesn't er increase. Okay. When does that policy terminate, do you know? Er when she's sixty I think. When she's sixty. Okay what about yourself, have you got any health insurance? Well the thing being you see, I mean, there's no illness in my family, I really don't see the benefit to be honest with you. Not at all? Sorry? Not at all what? You, you don't see the benefit of insurance? No not really, no I, I'm hale and hearty erm there is no history of illness in my family, my father, my grandfather lived till he was about eighty four I've never really given it much thought. The wife's a bit different but I, I, you know, I see no need. Okay if I could just give you a brief, a small diagram, okay Mhm. just to explain this is, well I actually find this the easiest way of actually describing erm the needs of a health insurance Right. okay? And if I can take this as, this being your okay, and you've got this thirty thousand pounds a year coming in Right, yeah. okay? Just looking at yourself, not taking your wife's salary into account, just yourself Yeah sure. and out of that thirty thousand pounds what do you have to pay out? Monthly. Well everything. So Mortgage you've got your mortgage and your bills er holidays, visa card erm car, running the car clothes er what else? Well Food? ah yeah well yeah food I suppose yeah to a degree, entertainment, holidays, have I said holidays have I? Yes. Oh yeah, yeah. Going out, we like to enjoy ourselves you know we live our life to the full. Quite a bit I suppose. So and then entertaining and your social life. Yes, yeah a fair bit, yeah. Okay. What about your children? I mean plans for education? Erm mm yes I suppose we should er we should cater for their needs yeah I suppose private education. Okay anything else that you can think of? That maybe you pay out on Insurances I suppose. That's all I can think of to be honest with you. Okay. If we can just look at that now and all Yeah. of those come out of your annual salary of thirty thousand pounds Right. okay? Well for the first six months, if you were to be taken seriously ill you would Yeah. be okay and all of these would still get paid because you would get your full salary for six months. Mm. That's right, yeah. After six months you would only get half your salary so this would then go down to fifteen thousand. Bearing that in mind, which of these do you think you'll have to give up? Your salary's been cut in half. well knowing the wife none of it, erm well I suppose erm Your social life would go first mainly Yeah okay yeah, cut down the entertainment that's not, cut down on the clothes, we wouldn't buy so many expensive clothes I suppose. I don't know, perhaps not eat so much rich rich food. Might do me the power of good, lose some weight. So that would economizing? Yeah I suppose so, yeah. But even so I mean fifteen thousand pounds, it's still a fair bit to live on. It is but bearing in mind the lifestyle that you've got now, you've got a very good lifestyle. Yeah. Yeah okay yeah. Holidays ? Yeah I might need them more mind you but yeah I suppose holidays would have to go yeah, I'd go along with that yeah. Okay. If we just take those, so basically what we've done is we've cut down all the luxuries in your life Mhm. and the things that we're left with are all the bills Essentials. that you have to pay out. Okay. Take that a step further, after the end of twelve months you then lose this fifteen thousand Yeah. and you get fifty six pounds ten pence a week which proves to you Are you sure on that? Are you absolutely sure on that? I'm abs yes I am. Cos then cos we've been mislead. I wouldn't mind seeing the information that you have on and I'll Mm well I'll dig it out for you. and I'll certainly look into it for you Right. er to see where the actual statistics were go were got from. Cos we were working on about eight hundred pounds a month which is, I dunno, maybe ten thousand pounds a year which Yeah. I agree, okay on my lifestyle isn't enough, but I didn't think it was of any concern because I thought well, okay so what are you s what are you suggesting then? Well if I can just draw your attention to that figure now, just concentrate on that figure Yeah. and we've already given up the essentials in your life the two nine one seven per year which of these will be left to be paid? Erm well the car. You want to keep the car? Oh I see, so what are you s well, what I'd The car would go. The education would go. Well the insurance would have to go as well as I couldn't afford to keep that going. Would that pay the mortgage? No it wouldn't but er we could go to the D H S S. And they help with the mortgage, is that what you're saying? Mm it's a possibility, well I mean it's not, it's not an option I'd want to explore Mm. but nevertheless it still exists. And, and again with the bills that is another option with the bills. Mm. Well they wouldn't cover them all but erm I see what you're getting at. Okay. If I can, if you can just concentrate on that figure now Mm. I mean ideally you wouldn't want to have to, to go down to less than three thousand pounds a year Not at all. okay. Not at all. And the other side of it is that obviously you, you don't want to be going to the D S S and asking for erm State benefits either Mm. if possible you want to avoid that, so you don't want to, and, and you certainly don't want to leave it until a time when you have been taken sick and you can't do anything about it. No, no. You certainly want to look at doing something now before you actually get taken sick. Mhm. Yeah, yeah I'll go along with that, yes. Okay. So if we can just look at these again Mhm. look at the, the things that you would want to cover Yeah. and how much do you think you would need on an annual basis? Well I spend everything I earn so I'd say a hundred percent of what I'm on. Okay. If you were to take out erm health insurance cover Mhm. okay, which would be an option to make sure that you didn't have to resort to this three thousand pounds a year Mm. the maximum that you could be covered for would be seventy five percent of your annual salary Right. which is twenty two and a half thousand. Now on twenty two and a half thousand, bearing in mind that you wouldn't have the costs of going to work erm your travelling expenses and everything that you would occur in work you would most probably be able to keep all of these Mm. and your standard of living Right. Okay. I mean the exercise that we've done is purely working on your salary Mm. I mean why can't I have a which is hundred percent of it then if this is so good? Well what they do they make sure that you're not better off when you're not working than you are working Oh right. so the maximum that we can cover you for is seventy percent of your annual salary. Oh this is the government then laying that down is it? That's yeah. Oh right. So it, it would be twenty two and a half thousand. Okay. So do you agree with Yeah I agree yes fine. Okay so if I can just go through what I've just talked with, with you about. You agree that come twelve months er of being out of work Yeah. you will have a great shortfall er of earnings. Yes. Going back to the six months one erm where you've fifteen thousand Mm. do you want to No we can get by on that. Okay. Yeah we'd get by. So you, you'd manage on fifteen thousand but then after the twelve months you'd most probably want to go up to say seventy five percent of your earnings? Yeah, that's it. Okay. Will I still get the State benefits,State benefits? What would happen with the State benefits you've got thirty two and a half thousand Mhm. okay? We would take the State benefits of just less than two thousand off that Right. Okay. and the remainder is, is divided by fifty two and that would be your, your weekly salary. Okay yeah. That makes sense yeah I'll go along with that, yeah fine. Okay? Okay is there anybody else that you would need to talk to about the recommendations that I've just given to you? No no I don't think so. No? So you're happy with everything that we've discussed today? Yes I am yeah. Okay. Well what I will do is I will go back and put a proposal together based on what we've talked about today Yeah. and then if that's okay with you I'll come back in about two weeks' time and Okay. talk to you erm and just explain about everything and the, the benefits that you Right okay, yeah. Would that be okay? Yeah, sure, fine. Okay. But if I can just go back to where we were talking earlier erm and I asked you about anybody that you may be able to refer me on to Mhm. okay? Have you given that any er any thought? Er not to be honest with you, no I haven't. Okay. But you mentioned earlier that you, you played tennis and erm and a, and a lot of other sports Mhm. and you mentioned your partners that you played with Yeah. do you think that maybe they could benefit from this idea that you've been talking about today? I don't know I, I wouldn't be in a position to answer for them to be honest with you. Right. But would you mind me, giving me their telephone numbers and I could ring and ask them myself? I'd rather I didn't to be honest with you. Okay. I think I'll talk to them first and if they're agreeable then I'll, I'll, then I'll pass them. Well I'm coming back to see you in two weeks' time so could I maybe get the information off you then? I'll see what they say and if agreeable then yes Okay. but if not Okay. Right if I can just go back to erm I've lost my place now Just do the needs Okay. Right we'll stop there. Thank you. Right. Right. That was very good Joan. excellent. Erm the ex er ex exploring the needs was er was very very good, excellent. I mean he initially didn't wanna know and then you went on about er and came up with the idea of well I'm very fit, the family's fit never have any problems health wise erm the o the only thing there you, I don't think you actually mentioned possibility of accident No. or accident that was, that was Yeah. the only thing but I mean you know you accepted what he said and then went on and, and by using your picture with the, with the cheque I mean you had him eating out your hand at the end didn't you? Erm went through and, and, and got into take out all the things you have to do, do away with and so on. Erm as far as his sort of doubts as to, as to what er what the actual State benefits are, I'm interested to know what the answer is to overco overcome that one unless you actually got a, a leaflet with you know the Well I did ask him, sorry I'm not supposed to talk No but I say I think, you know i is, it may be well worthwhile us carrying around leaflets which gives an idea of what the current limits are but yeah we'll, we'll find out about that. Erm I thought you summarized the needs very well and got that over. Erm permission to proceed and product recommendations you went through. Erm you spoke about the second appointment and say you were coming back you didn't actually arrange it but you spoke about it I, I did say in two weeks' time Yeah, yeah that's right. I'm sorry. Erm yeah that's fair enough It's hard not talking that's alright. Erm as er you went on as er as far as referrals were concerned and the objections that were raised you, you apacked really and, and, and went through and overcome those and at the end of the day you, you got the, you got really what you er what you were aiming for that er to get him to, to speak to these people between now and the next appointment so you could er, you could come back. Erm you didn't actually get as far as ANNA I don't think did you? No, no I, I didn't. But so that's, that's where er where it got to, but, you know, the, the structure of it was, was excellent. Erm the on the only bit of information I got down there is as far as the maximum limits are concerned I don't think it's a government I think it's an insurance company agreement actually of seventy Oh is it? five percent. Yeah I don't think it's actually Oh right. a government but all insurance companies really come up with much the same thing so I mean that's, that's purely for your technical information rather than anything else. But er no I thought it, you know, it, it went very well, the use of your, your little pictures as I say, excellent. Mm. William. In the pictures that was er that was one thing er I was quite happy with. Mentioned the D S S and I think you could've disturbed him more, do you really want to go down there and be means tested and, and er that'd be a, a possibility er to disturb him a wee bit more. Er bearing in mind they've also got eight thousand pounds of earnings and so the eight thousand pounds of earnings they've got to use that up er savings, sorry, savings not earnings er before they can actually get means tested erm and there's a s a sliding scale between three thousand and there. Referrals er he was adamant it was two hundred pounds he was gonna get so there was an opportunity for referrals at the end from, from people that work with him. I mean you mentioned the tennis club which was great, you know you went back there but you know that was a, a wee thing to pick on depending on the company Yeah. that er Martin worked with. Erm I wasn't quite certain of the wife's P H I there was something about twelve months and she was getting a hundred and thirty pounds er I, I lost it because I was looking at the clock at the same, I must confess but erm Where have you got this eight thousand pounds savings? No that's D S S. Oh yeah I, it's alright I thought it was on so that's a D S S form and I'm thinking No no, no D S S did I miss that That's, that's just information I Yeah I mean the part about the er about the savings erm if you'd've done or were doing a complete fact find that, that would come up anyway wouldn't it? Mm. Oh you'd identify that they've got to use their savings first Yeah. before they can even qualify for anything. So I mean er I think one of the points we raised earlier is that there are, there are bits of information which we either assume or are missing so on that. Ron. Er yeah well all, all those things er and I thought the, the diagram was marvellous and you sort of to start with you, you were thinking ahead to doing this diagram and you could see that that's what you were waiting to do and then once you did it you were up and running. That is the diagram Yeah I know. Then you was up and running. And then it sort of you, you lost your track slightly with the referral side I know. At the very end I instead of sort of going over and saying what a marvellous job we did here er and then saying yeah fantastic It's alright she can't keep quiet Ron, we're not laughing at you. Oh sorry. Saying fantastic erm and then you can say look, as it's been of some benefit do you remember what I said earlier? Mm. You know because you, you sort of lost, she lost her track going in to that on how to get him back into the referrals. You know she went straight in for it without sort of seeing how well That's right. Anything else? No that's, that's, that's basically it and the other points that you've covered of course. But erm yeah, okay. Martin? Right yeah erm not much more to add really I sum er summary of needs, I think that's okay and you explored and probed quite well, the picture was good and all that, I could see where you were coming from. The two hundred pounds per week was in fact my misunderstanding, it's two hundreds pounds per month, just roughly fifty quid a week that's where I got it from. Erm but you're gonna come across some people who are cocksure of themselves Mm. who say well no you are wrong and not being condescending but so some men like that. Er I think you apack it appropriately and have sales aids with you. Mhm. And we do provide you with sales literature to say well actually strange to say but it has gone up recently it is only fifty eight pounds a week. And then that will just let me down ever so slightly, yeah? But you did come back and you had the, the figures to hand. Er but what I become, I thought you might become more confrontational but you didn't so so you dug a hole for yourself that you could've dug out of you sat in there but I think you handled that quite well, but there are people like me out there who think they know it all and will have a go at you. Erm didn't say you'll go back and work out a plan of attack for me or did you? I did actually say I was going to put a plan together for you and come back in two weeks but I mean The second point was that yes you mentioned it but it wasn't really arranged,. The first was a good attempt but yeah you missed misled or confused then there could be several others I felt you could've picked up that would be highlighting the second appointment that carried the whole process through Mhm. erm when you that you intend going back to plant the seed, how have you found today's been?some benefit etcetera etcetera etcetera and . But I thought good structure control overall, painted pictures well erm and I think perhaps just probe a bit more just a little bit stronger than you are at painting pictures but as you see a picture paints a thousand words. Mm. To try and explain that verbally would be very very hard Yeah it would. and you, you just, you can't mentally cross them off, keep a picture in your mind's eye of what you've crossed off. Yeah, so well done. And the fact that your wife is erm there was something that could've possibly been done for your wife and that is something that maybe I would've mentioned at the end, do you think this would of be any benefit to the wife only as maybe an ending statement or something Mhm. possibly. Maybe so, maybe so. Yeah well done. It's your turn now. Or have you said all you want to say? Erm I don't think there's much, I don't think there's that much more to say actually other than erm I, I didn't, I missed the erm the employee link completely I mean Yeah. I didn't, until Bill mentioned it I missed it completely. Mhm. Erm but er I think when you say about being confrontational there's if you've got a client in front of you the last thing that you want to do is have erm a confrontation with them Yes I agree with you. you know, you just want to sit back and er as far as I would think is to keep calm and say well I, I am right, you know, erm but without being too forceful in that way because then that would put them off Mm okay. so erm I don't er I wouldn't see the point in being too confrontational over an issue like that. Yeah. As long as I know that I'm right er and say well I'm quite willing to look at the figures that you've been given, but these are the figures that are right but I will look at them erm and I, and I certainly wouldn't er confront it much more than that. Right. I think I don't know whether that's right or not but well I'd go along with that but what I was saying was I, I thought you might become more confrontational and if you were then we'd've got into a bit of a tennis match there and but then you didn't go down that route, that's what I'm saying, you didn't actually go down that cos if you had've done we'd've got nowhere Yeah. cos I'd've got further and further and there's no way he was going to tell me I'm wrong. And you would've just dug the, the hole bigger and bigger wouldn't you? Yeah. Yes there's lots of us out there. Okay, well done. Any other comments, thoughts? Statutory sick pay income's State invalidity benefit that was the other thing That's right yeah. That's for twelve months int it? Twenty eight weeks. Well twe twenty eight weeks. Oh twenty eight weeks, yeah. That was the thing. Er is State, State invalidity benefit means tested as well? Yes it would be now yeah. Because the State er if he were covered for twenty six weeks full pay Yeah. that's aug augmented from his er It'll be paid to his company and his company will swallow that his company er so he doesn't really get that? Well I mean he gets it in he doesn't get it over and above his current mhm. but he may get it over and above after six months depending what Right. well after two weeks it becomes the statutory sick pay er then becomes the State invalid the State invalidity benefit. But the benefits are being reduced and our means tested and will get harder to pay out because of the furore recently erm fraudulent claims and we're a healthy nation but more people are claiming invalidity benefit. Er most people who claim invalidity benefit I mean don't need it anyway they're people who've got, you know, the existing bad backs, people Yes. like that and that's, I actually feel very strongly about that because I wouldn't mind paying more money if the people who needed it got it. I certainly wouldn't. But then the system's there to be abused and people abuse it. Well I know but it a it just annoys me. Yeah I agree. It just annoys me. What are we doing for time now, are we er on track, ahead of Five o'clock. We're about right I think aren't we? Yeah. Oh good. Yeah. Is this well it's Bill next. Well if it's Steve that's coming in, Steve interviewed me. It may well be Alan. Are you quite happy with that? Yeah I'm just no cos this, fortunately there's not four role play cycles to work through so yeah there may be somebody left again. Right. But what I wanna do is to, I'll get you all eventually. No I'm not, it's not, it's not bothering me No it doesn't bother me. Actually with the carpenter being self- employed and single Yeah. that is it Er no just say the same Right. Okay. Right because the other thing is er his age is important to me He's thirty five. thirty five, okay. Are you tired as well Martin? Yeah. I think everybody is. Sorry? I think everybody is. Yeah so imagine how you feel if you've got another two role plays to do and then try and concentrate for two hours again. Okay. Right. Six down two to go. How did the other group get on with their exams? Er two failed but I don't know who. Two out of there, oh. And one got seventy nine percent. Oh what out of the two? Er one of the two seventy five Mm. so he was quite gutted to miss it by one, maybe one well two, two questions. One or two, two questions anyway. Yeah. It's a bit sick is that. And he sees his feedback he'll kick himself Yeah. cos okay you won't believe he got several of those questions wrong as, you know, as we looked at the end of last night's, you can't believe No er the most annoying thing about last night was when, when Martin was actually reviewing erm some of the topics that we hadn't got right erm and Martin was prompting us with questions and we answered them! And you give the right answer. Yeah Yeah. Do we all get to see our papers again or You won't see the papers again but you'll get, I mean you shouldn't really see them I have No. I have to say because erm but you'll get technical feedback on the areas you've got wrong. Fr what, from the branch manager when we get back No from us er yesterday, well last night, well this morning rather, yesterday morning I faxed all the figures through to my head office figures this morning Right. they'll have rung all your branches and given the results Right. erm obviously the priority is to get the feedback to the people that have to resit the exam Yeah. and you may find that they've been done and they'll be posted to your branch so they will be there when you get back on Monday. and then take it from there. gonna be there Monday. No. We might, we might be Wednesday but Yeah whatever, whatever! They will come back to your branches So the feedback we get will be from From us. the branch yeah. I erm I hope I pass on Thursday because I've got two appointments on Wednesday. You will do. I know I will do but I've got t I've got a few appointments for next week. Have no fear you will pass. Have faith in your abilities. I was quite pleased when I got appointments between Christmas and New Year. Well you did well Did you get any appointments between Christmas and New Year? I've got my watch this time, Uncle Ron. Well done son. Oh sorry I'm falling short in my duties aren't I? You are yes. Right pensions isn't it? Yeah I'm afraid so. This is when I'll dry up but never mind, I'll try. We shall try. Is that, is that Billy's? It's Billy's. Good. It's Billy's and Bobby's and Bobby's and Billy's. I'm Billy he's Bobby, no I'm Bobby he's Billy . Is she alright? Eh? Right. Can't believe you've been watching all this television. Right tell me when you're ready. Roll. Roll. Don't want me er don't want me to just check it? Have you moved the chairs at all? Yeah, tell me when it's going. Are you going? That's fine. The mike, the mike it's too far away, there we go. Is that, is that comfortable? Are we cosy here? No we've, we've actually got Have you got a wide, have you got a wide angle job on that? The luck we're having with cameras you're lu it'd be wonderful if it's actually working. How we doing now? Yeah Good. Right. Yeah that's fine. Okay? Aha. Now you switch on then. Okay, are you, are you ready now Bill? Mm. Yes? Thanks very much for that information Mr Russell That's okay. We've now moved on to Just call me Steve, it's alright. Fine, right Steve, thank you very much. I'm Bill by the way. Okay Bill Right now you've told me you're self-employed as a carpenter, how long have you been running this business? Er about seven years now. Fine. Er what did you do previous to that? I was a bus driver. A bus driver. Did you have any preserved benefits from your previous employment? Sorry? Did you have a pen were you of pensionable salary Oh, oh yes. er as a bus driver? Yes I was, yes. That's good. Yes I had about ni I was there about nine years. Right so there's so something waiting for you, what we call preserved benefits sitting here er that's, that's good to know. You, you'll have details of that somewhere will you? Well I've got it somewhere, I mean Right. it'll take me an half an hour to go, do you want me to go and get it? No not just now, no that's alright, it was just er it's, it's important that you do have I've got it somewhere filed away. Right, that's grand. Now you've told me that er your net relevant earnings is twelve thousand pounds and your take home pay is seven hundred pounds. Mhm. What other source of in of income do you have? I haven't got any. None at all? No. So you're ploughing everything into the business at this moment That's right. in time and it's been going for about five years. Mhm. That's, that's er I w I'd like to come back er to that a little bit later. Have you made any pe er pension er provisions meantime? No none whatsoever. Okay er have you thought about it? I've thought about it but erm it's another one of those things I, I guess I keep putting off to the er a little bit later. Right. Sometimes it's a difficult thing to explain er why you should start early with a pension but very simply what, what would you be looking for when you retire? Two thirds salary? You'd like a hundred percent, obviously, or even more. Yeah I, well, hundred percent, why not? Right. Okay. Right so what you're looking for is twelve thousand pounds? Mhm. And if we draw a line it's the analogy of someone pedalling on a bicycle, if you reach thirty five and you're going up on a bicycle like that it's reasonably steep but not too steep, you can cope with that on a regular basis. If you wait five years it gets slightly steeper so the force to you becomes that and so on and so forth, forty five fifty and you can see at fifty five if you want to retire at a certain age er what's the age that you actually want to retire? Well sixty would be nice. Sixty right so if we do that at sixty we can see where that, where I'm coming from. Thirty five, you can cope with that on a reasonable basis, forty there, forty five, fifty and so on, how does that feel to you? Making er provision for a pension? I can see what you're driving at, I mean what you're saying is, you know, start it as soon as you can really. The sooner the better. There are two ways of doing that because in actual fact you could do this o over a period of thirty five to sixty which gives you twenty five years Mhm. if your business picks up, and hopefully it will Yeah. It's, it's looking good. then you'll be employing other people Yeah. that's good, there is what we call compressed funding. Now that's quite technical but what you can do, as you're making pro profits, you employ these profits in very very quickly Mhm. for a short period of time which will have the same affect of building it up over the twenty five year period and you can use the money for er er other things. I don't understand. I mean well can you explain that again? Right. Okay. Instead of taking it over a thirty five year period, what you would then have is that you go up very steeply let's say by putting lump sums or er regular capital premiums erm which you'll receive a tax refund and then it stops but the benefits of the fund keep going so at age sixty they would have the same effect of reaching your pension there with no contributions Surely that, that's not possible is it for, for people in my position because I'm putting all my money into the, into the company. I mean I I haven't got money left over to start whacking in money into a pension scheme. Fair comment. At this moment in time I would agree with you entirely. Mhm. Now that's, that's perfectly valid but if the business actually improves, it takes off, you could have this advantage to, to do it over a shorter period of time, maybe in ten years' time when business is really So should I wait there are there are alternatives Right. if you wait Shall I wait and then put in er would it be better for me to wait and then put in a big lump sum? That's the sixty four thousand dollar question because you've now lost ten years and the hill's getting a wee bit steeper again But isn't this com compressed funding as you call it gonna sort of taking it into, that into account? It would do because in actual fact that would obviate this particular steep hill. Right. Okay? But er you mentioned that there's er there's no er retirement er provision's been made Mhm. is that of great pri priority to you? Well your, your little diagram shows that I really yes ought to be doing something about it, yeah. Right, okay. Erm so if I could pu come up with a plan er to fund a pension and take this away and look at your particular situation over the twenty five year period, would you be quite happy to er look at that providing you're happy with the er the money, the sum in involved and all the rest of it? Yeah yeah well why don't you erm show me some er some proposals on that. Make some illustrations, right. Yeah I'd be happy to look at some illustrations. Okay. Well what I would like to do is obviously erm when would be convenient to come back and see you? Oh you want to come back? Well obviously I'll have to give you the illustrations. Oh. Couldn't you send it to me? Er I could do but then again would you under er so that you can understand er what the actual recommendations are, the important thing is again that we see you face to face. Well your recommendation's a pension isn't it? My recommendation would be a pension, yes that's right because that's your priority, you've chosen Sure. not I er Yeah. and what I want to do is to look at it er over that particular period so I can explain everything to you in full because there are benefits to you in terms of tax savings Sure. because that is important. Isn't that in don't you have any kind of er literature to to We can do. send me and I could read that. Yes er that, that's no problem but what I would like to do is obviously keep er face to face er contact so that we can explain the thing fully because you may have other questions that you want to ask once you've actually read it so therefore I'm on hand hopefully to answer all these questions Mhm. at that moment in time. Okay fair enough. Okay erm when would be convenient er to see you? Er next week's no good I'm, I'm really tied up at work, I've got lots of jobs on erm Good thing. yeah we, we're very busy That's good. I would say er say a fortnight's time. A fortnight's time at the same time, six thirty? Six thirty yeah. Er Wednesday evening? Mm. Fine I'll just take a note of that, thank you. Right. Now providing your happy with these recommendations er do you have to consult anyone else er Erm in order to do so? I think it might be wise for me to talk to the accountant before I, you know, put these plans into effect. Fine, that's no problem because at least you've got a fortnight in which to make contact with him and put your intentions up. Yeah. Well I, I'll wait till you bring back your, your er illustrations and then I'll talk to him. Right. Er are you happy with the way we've addressed your particular need today er namely the pension? Er yeah I mean a pension's a pension isn't it? So Yes. I don't need to worry about that. Erm what about er er if you're happy with that particular product erm we hope that you will understand if, sorry,er you're completely happy with the, the arrangement then you'll be happy to er go ahead with it er at, at our next meeting? Well as I say I, I'd like to run it past the accountant afterwards. Fine. Yeah good, and what amount er would you be happy to put into your pension. Well obviously as little as possible because At this moment in time. Well I mean I don't wanna put in er a great deal of money because most of it's ploughed back into the business. Right. Er have you set a sum Well what's your minimum? Erm twenty pounds. Er well twenty pounds sounds alright. Okay. Right. What I'll do for you deliberately er if the situation changes between now and a fortnight's time after you've sp spoken to your accountant, I'll probably look at twenty, thirty and forty just to give you an illustration of what the expectations er are by, by putting a sum in there. But again bear in mind they're only for illustration purposes only. Fine erm now you mentioned earlier that er you played er squash and tennis Mhm. can you think of an remember when I asked about introductions and things of that nature? Are any of your colleagues that you play er squash with or tennis with er in the same boat in terms of self employment Yeah there there's a number of them, yeah, there's a solicitor erm there's a chap who's set up his own business, his own erm antique restoration business. Good. Er could you give me the these names please? Er and the Yeah. telephone number? Yeah sure. There's er Jim Brown and er Fred Smith. Fine. Well I'll be contacting them in the next fortnight er if and to make be able to pass on my card, I'll leave you two cards so that they, they know to expect a phone call from myself. Mhm. That's grand. Erm thank you very much for your time,sociabilities and close. Okey-dokey. What number? Oh that was , that was the one What ? Cut. Ron do you wanna start? Yeah, sure. Erm Ooh! er er you were going, you were going well with the, the pension you, you wanted him and your diagram was good and he was going for it but directly you showed him the diagram then you started on about this er Compressed funding. compressed funding so you were giving him too much Ooh! yeah, at once. Now, now it would've been easier for you, the, the part that you missed out which would have brought all that in to play would have been how much do you want to pay, do you wanna pay a, a small amount over a long time or a big amount over a short time and then that would've brought that into play. And then there's the other diagram, the it's the hours of the day Yeah, that's right. So I mean you could've got round it but you know you was good what you were doing but that's where you lost yourself didn't you? Mhm. And, and er and that was that. Erm you also dug holes for yourself by sort of bunging some stuff in the post. Erm.. you know you should've nipped that in the bud straight away rather than saying yeah we'll put it in the post, we can do that, you should've just said you know well I'll bring it all along and gone from there. Erm also the accountant you could've tried to of got round because you were, you were digging the hole there erm you know where he's, okay he wants to see the accountant, will this be a good idea I mean you could've said yeah you know you appreciate that and all the rest of it and you could've gone more into the tax side of where you, you know, you could've perhaps er the company could've benefited by putting some into the pension scheme as opposed erm paying all the taxes maybe you could've gone in that way. Er and the only other point was, where was how much can you afford and he said well what's the minimum? And you said twenty quid and that was it I'll have one of those please. Yeah, you were finishing up erm that was it. You know you should've perhaps questioned him, you know what's his minimum what, you know, what could he how, how important is his future. You know it, it was good and that's, you know, and that's not knocking you apart at all No. and of course, you know, you er er you'll get hold of all this as the more we do erm but you lost your way on the diagram by giving him too much I think and, and er the referrals you sort of lost at one point but you come back and reclaimed it didn't you? Mm. Okay? Are you done? Yeah. Thank god. Joan? Okay. Can I just ask a question to start with because I was messing around with the camera and was it that he ha that he had no private pension policies at all? Haven't got any. Right okay so there was nothing to actually come back in and question about that cos there was, there was nothing that you actually came back and, and actually questioned on that, on that form. Okay. Well i it was just that I, I missed the initial question Mhm. so I wasn't quite sure of the answer that you gave back with me walking back from the camera so I just wanted to qualify that so that, I mean all that I noticed was that there was nothing that, that, no information that you tried to get out of him. I, I haven't got anything. Erm but anyway so that was that then. The summarizing of needs erm well the exploration of needs you, you never really went in to erm er what he really needed, what he thought he needed to retire on. What, what what er level of income that he thought he needed. You never actually found that out. Erm so, so really what er although when you came to summarize the needs I've actually put good but too technical because we all knew what you were getting at but erm but to actually be doing that but not know at what point he needs to stop at or wants to stop it, you didn't know erm the pension that he wanted and you didn't know at what age he wanted to retire at that point you know, you, you hadn't got any of those facts from him, you know Mm. so I actually felt that although that presentation was very good, it was almost like a blind presentation because there was no benefit to him at the end of it because he, he didn't have, you hadn't got those finishing point Aha. that's the way that I saw it. Erm I'm not quite sure about this, I may be wrong, but I thought that maybe that you could've erm questioned him a little bit more about why he thought he needed to speak to his accountant. Fair enough he may have had a very good reason for doing so but I thought that that would have been a typical apack erm he did say well you know I just want to run it by him, you know, just to make sure but you, you still needed to know why he thought that his accountant had to be involved. The referrals you, you missed the, the beginning out of the f referrals and just went straight into it and said have you got anybody I could contact Mhm. so erm but I think Robert's already mentioned that part of it. Erm and again I put erm things about putting details in the post although you, although you did try and overcome that one erm but you, you just couldn't, you couldn't get Steven to realize the benefit of you actually going round with the illustrations rather than you just sending it and you needed to get, to get the appointment out of him rather than because if he got the illustrations in the post he may never read them. So You find that is the reality. you know so erm so some er a lot more should've been done about actually getting, even if it was just well I'm in that area, I'm in the area on such and such a day anyway so I can call in to see you. Erm and erm again the last comment I've got is er how much was affordable to himself. But that would've tied in again with, with the beginning because what is affordable erm would he get the benefits that he was wanting at the end of it. That's it. Okay? Yes. Thanks Joan. Erm yeah I th I mean I, I've got more or less all the points that have been raised but I, I just felt that it went it er it was almost as though you'd made your mind up before you went in that you were gonna tell him what compressed funds was and by hell or high water it was gonna be on that . Mm. Erm We know that you know what compressed funding is Yeah . I, I mean the, the conversation started off and when, when you started to ask him about his existing or his previous pensionable employment as a carpenter he really hadn't got a clue as to what it was all about. Erm you, you never really sort of er he said he'd got a bit of paper somewhere and he could perhaps go and find it and you said, you know, sort of no not now erm but having done that you never, you never, not now erm but having done that you never, you never, I Mhm. and I think as a result of that it, it got disjointed and you, and you couldn't follow it through. Erm you, you did, you know, you did summarize with what you thought you, you'd established erm you went through to, to get your second appointment Steve threw, you know, the objection in about sending it in the post and what have you erm er and, and you o you overcame that erm successfully but I think the other thing that, that with, with the ANNA it, it unless you get that authority the rest of it is meaningless because you know you can't go on and, and, well you can agree the needs but there's no way that he's, he's gonna agree to do it now or when you go back or, or even perhaps agree on the amount. I think if you've got somebody who's got a er a solicitor or an accountant then you need to establish why he wants to talk to them and also er if he, if he's adamant that he wants to do that, find out who he is and ask if you can speak to him as well, or you can explain erm you know what the, what, what you're doing with the client. But don't sort of back away from them try and to, to work with them cos you've gotta, you've gotta get the two, the two together. Erm as I say really it was, it was just er er the same as er as the other people said. There was one, there was one last comment that I missed out there that it was the erm the permission to proceed with the product recommendations, you were wanting to proceed with recommendations but you hadn't got the commitment off Steven in the first place so you were suggestion recommendations and what! Because you, you hadn't got the commitment that he wanted a pension or he didn't I didn't, I didn't feel that at that point that you That and it, and it went back really to the fact he hadn't explored the needs. That's right yeah everything went back to that initial part. Yeah. Steve. Yeah now you see the, the difficulty with that particular one was I wasn't con convinced or committed to buying anything because you had not explored my needs Okay. you see, that's, that's the problem Mhm. and it's a case of er if you're talking to somebody about pension requirement it would be a case of Mr Prospect let's just have a look, let's imagine today is the last day that you'll be working as a carpenter. You pack your bags, shut the door, switch off the lights and you go home and you've got the, the r another thirty odd years perhaps to look forward to in retirement. What are you gonna be doing now that you're not working? How are you gonna be spending your time? Mm. What are you gonna be spending your money on? How are you gonna be occupying yourself? Mhm. If you'd retired yesterday how much money would you need in today's terms to spend? What would you be spending it on? Because you see there was none of that exploration and it's just those nice easy open question to get me to start enjoy spending my, my er retirement. Erm so I c I couldn't buy any of what you were telling me and it's all like a, it was all a smokescreen I was putting up, the accountant, basically I, I was not erm buying anything er and the compressed funding was just blowing my mind because I couldn't understa er it was basically giving me an easy option to say I don't need to do anything cos I can compress my funding at forty five won't I, when my business has taken off. It was like you know, you were digging a hole and er it was, it was making it very difficult for me to want to buy you see? Mhm. And then when I gave you the minimum premium er it was like right okay well that's, that's the easy way out isn't it, twenty quid a month, okay I might do something for twenty quid because I wasn't committed and that's what exploration of needs is all about and it's, it's so easy for me to sit and say yeah that's what you need to do but putting myself in your shoes, you know, a few years ago Mhm. how to do it Mm. and that's what, you know, I try and help you on if you like but how can you do that when I saw a, a very good erm presentation of a pen of pensions. Erm it was actually somebody who came for an interview and you know how you sit in on the presentations when you do the group presentations? And erm he actually, he, he started off and, and was very nervous but the summing up of it was, was brilliant erm and I, I wouldn't put it across as well as what he did but the principle of it was that he, he suddenly turned round and said right I have now changed my job, right, you are now looking at the new managing director of Friends Provident, he says, and the first thing I am going to do is I'm cutting all your wages to eighty five pounds a week, what are you going to do about it? And that was it and erm so then everybody's saying so, you know, I'll come banging on your door and saying what do you think you're doing, you know, knocking me down to eighty five pounds a week or, or whatever it is and, you know, obviously there were various feedbacks from that and then the summing up of it was, so is that what you're going to do to the D S S when you, when you retire? Obviously he put it across a lot better than what I did but the actual message of getting that across to Mm. because, you know, especially to people, and this is this is not talking down to people but er to somebody who doesn't understand pensions or anything who I'm a carpenter I'm not a rocket scientist either, yeah. That's it you have to put it in the simplest of terms and that is the way that most people would understand it, you know, you come to sixty five or whatever and instead of having three hundred pounds a week you've got eighty five pounds a week and what are you going to do about it. And I thought that was that was one of the best, simple erm ways of actually describing what a pension Mhm. of what to do to actually your pension in retirement. Anyway I just thought it And very, yeah, I mean th that's, that's all that this exploration of needs is, is just saying you retired yesterday and you were earning twelve thousand a year, you're now gonna be earning two and a half thousand pounds a year. What's gonna go? What, what things have you still gotta pay for, what things are you gonna cut out a bit? Come on, let's write them down. Food? Well you still want food, rent, mortgage do you wanna have a holiday, are you gonna run a car? Meals out well you're not gonna do it on two hundred and fifty pounds erm a month or whatever it is, you can't do it can you? What are you gonna cut out? Do you want that to happen? You don't. Do you wanna do something about it? Mm. So in fairness I got this, excuse the expression, arse about face in the sense that I ha I thought prioritize these and pensions were, was this and that's why you were exploring the needs for the second appointment. You know you had gone through the whole C C Q and the priority was the pension, that's what I got wrong. What I should've realized was that we're still filling in the form Yeah that's exactly it. and that's, that's, that's why I went totally off beam Steve. The reason I asked for a preserved pension obviously to see whether there was any preserved benefits. The second thing was I asked, and nobody picked it up, five, five years he'd been working could the net earnings related carry forward? Oh yeah. So I mean again I realized I had dug a hole for myself with the compressed funding but at the same time I was saying to myself oh yeah there is carry forward here er Mm. there was a possibility, still , there was still something there that we can use. Erm I'm, I admit er that that was one I just bolted simply because I was taking it the wrong way round, I thought we had identified what was the priority, life insurance, P H I and pensions and was summarizing it whereas I should've realized we're doing that page towards the priority Mm. there's a totally different way of doing it. You see about the accountant, you've gotta knock that on the head immediately because otherwise it's a waste of space. Yeah that's right. You've gotta destroy it. But the accountant could well be the guy that you went and played tennis with and the boy doesn't even make a move unless he gets the accountant and So it's a difficult one to get over on occasions. well you've gotta probe, you've gotta, you've got to apack that Yeah. say that's interesting you want to speak to your accountant Mhm. why? Yeah. Because the then again I was er at the back of the form and I knew who his accountant was er You've gotta probe and establish the reasons why I'm gonna talk to him and most people it's, it's, it's a lie, they're not gonna talk to him, they want to use the accountant as a reason to say oh erm I'm, I can't do it this time the accountant said no or I've not spoken to him yet I'll have to put it off for a, for a bit longer Mhm. so you've, you've gotta knock that one out. Mhm. Er and as for budgets erm you know I'd, I'd be saying to people come on you're not buying a raffle ticket, let's talk serious funding. How serious are you about being able to retire with some dignity and being able to continue doing the things you've always wanted to er the things you've been able to enjoy doing but you'll have to give up. Are you serious about doing this? That's right. You know you could put in up to seventeen and a half percent, that represents you know That's right. a hundred and fifty pounds, how close can you get to a hundred and fifty pounds a month? t having done that you never, you never, I6 I think, I think the other thing is as well though is that when you, I mean you've been sitting pensions cos I mean I had the P H I which I thought it was easier to actually describe erm but erm it's easy for us to actually sit back and, and go back on everything that everyth er everybody else did wrong isn't it, so Sometimes er trying to sell a pension to a thirty five year old can be difficult cos he's not interested, he's, he's only interested in his job Oh I don't know I think and his business. It's your job to make him interested. Now that's, no fair comment, I take the point fully er I'm just saying, you know, that you've got a thirty five year old, och why the hell do I need a pension. When I I I think the thing is if, if you'd've demonstrated that or, or got to the stage of saying well alright, you know, if you're retiring tomorrow how much money do you need to, to live on I should've painted the picture then if you'd've done your bike riding up the hill Yeah. I think, you know, you, you were going down the right track, you've gotta be really. That would've been down hill. Mm well. I I think a good example to use with younger people with er pe with pensions as well is that the, the er the cutting down of funding that the government is making and it's going to be hitting like the younger people and another important thing is like with the, with the Australia issue, I mean in Australia now it's compulsory for everybody under the age of twenty five to have a personal pension and that r and that age rise is going to, that age limit is going to rise each time because they want to abolish the State pension completely and it was only, what, what about two months ago that there was, that there was er articles in I think it was The Times about them doing a similar operation in this country, you know? Mm yeah that was in all the national press. Yeah so I mean with, with younger people it's, although th they're still not, it's still not going to be easy-easy er like with the older people, there's still the, the disturbance element that in years to come they are not going to have this to fall back on because by the time that they retire it's just not going to exist. You know? Yeah that's fair comment, I But I think I think the Australian one is, is er quite a good example to use on pensions. Yes it is. Yeah. Well and, and the press comments th that have been made here, you know, that you could end up What did Peter Lilley say the other day, you know, that er you'll have to provide thinking about. provide for yourself won't you? That's it, yeah. Yeah. And er I mean th the o the question you would use for, for this one is tell me, what are your thou what is it, what are your thoughts on pensions, you know, what are your thoughts on retirement, how do you feel about it just open up for the guy to say it's very important or I'm not interested, oh that's interesting why do you say that. Yeah er if he retired tomorrow. And it's, no if you'd retired yesterday, it's always retired yesterday, you died yesterday Yesterday. Why, why's that? Because well it Today is reality int it? Yeah. well if you say, if you'd re if you died yesterday er tomorrow Yeah. well I can't die tomorrow cos I've got a very important meeting and er and er I say it's, you've always gotta go back last night, last week Yeah and what you can say what would happen cos it's gone and you're not It's gone frightening them er you're not erm you're not saying you're gonna die tomorrow or next week. Yeah you w you would be saying, if there's a husband and wife there and you said you died yesterday and if the, if the husband butts in you say you're dead, you say nothing, all the plans you're gonna do you never did, right, so you're dead, you keep quiet you can't go back and have a reincarnation. Thank you. Oh it's a bit strong actually isn't it? Talking of reincarnation Maggie's come back. Did you give me yours? Yes there, I put it over there. Mine's just on there Bill. It's just on that chair. Oh I think I've changed jobs again but I'm sti I'm still male. but that was good. You know you dug a hole don't you? I know a dug a hole and I totally misread it in the sense that That's a good idea but I don't think I'd No you know the priority was either P H I, savings or whatever and I thought we've gone through the whole form That's right. what the hell am I back here for Yeah. and instead of that if I'd've realized that exactly what the guys said you know Excuse me. Right who've I got and Me. what we doing? Erm savings. Cambridge? Yes. Right so it's Er what we got? Five, fifteen, thirty five minutes six twenty, oh we've still got bags of time then. You've got four minutes. Okay, erm er erm Right so erm I'm a chartered accountant on thirty grand. Oh you're gonna be the customer are you? Yes. Well the last time I was a chippie on twelve grand. Oh I don't know about that guv . Might as well get into erm the mode. Mhm. That's all you've done isn't it? Yeah. I didn't sleep very well Funny enough I'm tired last night actually and it didn't exactly help, well, it's a long trip up here, longer than I expected and I didn't Where where do you have to come from? Essex, Chelmsford. Oh right, I come from Halstead. Oh you're not far then. No. Just that bit further Oh you're, you're that bit further, well I suppose I'm that bit further really Well no you're further north aren't you? Which way because I did you come? Well I had to come down, I had to come, I erm went down to Bishop's Stortford and in fact What to pick up the M, A one M? Well I slightly lost myself because I went down the M eleven Why back up on the er the four one four so I was really doubling up my journey. Oh God you were weren't you? Cos I went That's right. straight on the four one four from Chelmsford, picked up the M eleven followed the M eleven up and took the A forty five across country. That's right. But I, I I'd've been quicker if I'd gone down into Brentwood, picked up the M twenty five and gone on the A one M That's right. Well er anyway as it, as it worked out, although I did a lot of s sloshing about, erm when I actually got to erm on to the four one four and I followed that through to the M one and straight up and I was running parallel with the M twenty five, virtually Yeah. it's just that all I heard all morning was there's so many delays there with all the water, surface water erm so I thought well let's try and avoid that. What time did you have to be here yesterday? Erm t erm two o'clock One o'clock. start, one o'clock lunch One o'clock for lunch yesterday. yeah. I mean it only took me two hours two and, two two and a half hours er I still can't get over the fact they cancelled my, my booking for last night. Don't know whether they thought I was gonna leave home at half past five this morning. Well that's alright Joan, Joan had an eight hour car journey to get to Nine hours. Yes cos you've got a long way Nine hours to come haven't you? I, I came very close to having a very bad accident because we didn't, we were up early in the morning and we didn't Mm. finish until late and then I had Mm ? Erm I know Oh it's all over here I moved them all Yeah there's one here, here are here are. No that's Oh it's okay hang on, no so no sorry. Erm do they have a plane? I th er erm It's a heck of a drive. Well it's pretty intensive. I mean there's a lot crowded into the time. Well this is about, I mean at this point it's about one o'clock in the morning. You'd've been better off to have been booked in here for a good night's sleep and then driven up the next day but then you're virtually sort of getting up there turning round and coming back aren't you? Well that's it cos I'd, I mean I had the accident, well I mean I, I didn't hurt myself and I was very lucky I didn't hit the cars but erm it was bad enough with er and I ended up on this big grass embankment at the end of the bypass. You know at the top it was like sloping down here and the car's like this and I'm having to try and get the car back down without it toppling over and it was an abs Where were you? I was on the erm bypass at this point about erm less than an hour from home Yes but that's when your concentration flags. Possibly yeah. You get more accidents within the fifty miles of your home than anywhere else. Yeah. Yeah. So that was quite well very fri That woke you up with a bang. very frightening. You alright? Yeah I was alright but I was very shaking and, and everything and I managed to get the car down and and there wasn't that many cars No other vehicles involved? No, no I, I don't know how but there was two cars that was, that was er behind me and I managed to avoid them but I don't know how. Did they stop? No. They just left you to it? So you had, you, you had to get it all down, you know, do everything by yourself? but when I got the car back on to the road, I mean I'm a, a complete bag of nerves and I'm, I'm not wanting to be walking along the, the edge of the bypass at one o'clock in the morning That's right. and erm the car's all over the place because the wheels are all covered in mud and everything so Joan for what it's worth erm and this is just something you might want to think about a mobile is worth its weight in gold. Yeah well my husband's talking about getting one of those because I mean after I didn't tell him all the details I was gonna say have you told your husband. Well I told him that, that I was getting very tired but he would've just worried about me coming back down you know I know. and I mean I've got s it's not as bad going back from here cos it'll only be about a six hour then. Not the point though is it? But erm and I, I thought well he's just going to worry unnecessarily so I'll tell him when I'm back Do have the mobile though because apart from everything else erm I mean you've got R A C membership Well we haven't though, not after twelve months. That's what we were told in the branch, it lapses after twelve months Well I've still got the R A C membership card. Yeah it's only No for the guarantee er the one year warranty I think you'll find Maggie. I haven't been told that. I think you'll find it is. Cos I asked about that before I travelled down because I was worried in, you know, in case of breaking down. A lot of Well as far as I'm aware we've got R A C membership because I've got the card, nobody told me to Er has the card been filled in with a date on it? Cos I've got one in my car that's over two years old and there's not a, you know nobody's written anything on it or anything. As far as I'm aware it's standard R A C membership. It's something Yeah go on Will Not, not to be s unsympathetic but I mean let's try and get this in to press on. thirty five minutes. One two Are you ready Rob? Yeah. I'll erm I'll just check this because we've changed round again and last time that Oh yeah. Well it should be okay. Yeah? Yeah Robert can you just move in s every so slightly, that's better. That's fine. Ooh! Sorry I'm only playing. Do you think I'd make a good do you think I'd make a good director? Cut excellent. Right thanks for that Maggie. Er I'd just like to move on now erm what future capital needs do you need anticipate? Sorry I'm not, not with you. Okay. Er for your future, is there anything that you feel may come up erm that you will need er a lump sum of money for? Er your children's future, your future? Your plans for ten years or so? Oh I see what you mean er I didn't quite understand what you were talking about. I'm sorry. Erm well as it happens it's er that, this is something I wanted to bring up with you. Erm when I got married erm I had a, a, a lump sum of money and erm I was thinking about my daughter about putting some money on one side. Right and what, what would for what reason would that be? Well so that she has similar, so that she has erm you know money when she gets married or if she decides not to get married maybe she can use it for a, a house deposit. Mm. So you're looking for mm well if she's ten at the moment you're looking at ten years plus I suppose. Mhm about ten eleven years, yes. Yeah sure. Okay. Pen's run out right okay so you're looking for er a savings plan or a l a lump sum of money for ten years plus for your daughter? Yeah but erm but I'd like to have some sort of life cover with that so if anything does happen to me she gets Mm. a lump sum. Sure. Okay. Er what about your son he's only eight he Ah well actually he's provided for because there is a sum of money left in trust for him so it does just my daughter I wanted to Ah right so it's really just your daughter that your looking er for a lump sum Well yes having said ten years yeah but having said that erm that was something I wanted to ask you about because I mean both, both of them might need some money for higher education so, whilst I'd like to put that sum money on one side, I'd also possibly, you know if the need arose, would like to use it myself if I needed to for, for higher education. I want it to be fairly flexible. Sure. So really you're, you're, you, you would prefer it to be under your name Mhm. and then if you needed it for the further education you could use it Mm. if you wanted it more for, as a gift in ten, eleven years time as you've said Mm. erm you would then like just to get the lump sum and say here you are. Well I wanna make sure that if anything happens to me erm before the end of the policy that my daughter gets the money because Sure. as I said my son's taken care of from that point Sure. of view but I'd like to have access to it erm to Right. to be able to use it, I don't know if that I mean can you i is that something that's possible? Yes that, that is very possible cos what we could actually do is erm we could, we could put it under your life and then we could put it into a trust, a flexible trust. Now what that actually means is that the money er will go to your daughter if anything happened to you but if you re er was still alive come maturity time you could then take the proceeds yourself to then give her. Right, okay. Okay? Erm so the money would come to me? The money would come to you, let's say for instance we started the policy for ten years okay? Mm. So in ten years time you would have a maturity of X number of pounds Right. okay, this lump sum of money that you want to give to your daughter, okay? Mm. Mm. Right. Now what we would do is put into a flexible trust, okay? Mhm. Now what that actually means is that in ten years time when that money matures, that policy matures Mm. you can actually have that money and give to your daughter, okay? Right. Right. Now if on the other hand if you were to die within that ten year period Mm. the money that's built up er in, is put away in that trust to come straight over to your daughter so she would actually get that money. Okay. Alright? So you're, you're covering both angles then. Okay yes, yes that Are you happy with that? Mm. Right so just to summarize erm let's, let's remind ourselves of the, the issues we've raised here. Would that be okay? Yes ple yes please do. Yeah sure. Okay so you said that the most important concern really is that you have some money for your daughter's future Yes. whether it be a lump sum or for further education. Yeah. Right. Now what, what do you think would happen if you made no provision for this. Well that's why I'm asking you to, to, to draw this up. Right. So you, you can see that it is a concern Mhm. and you would like erm to have this money for your daughter's future. Yes, yes that's er yes. Right. Well thanks very much for all your thoughts and ideas there. What I will need to do is to now take this information away with me and put together some recommendations er which will help solve this concern for you. Now what I would like to do is come back and see you either next week or the week after. Which will be best for you? Er probably the week after but erm Okay. Now would it be the same, same sort of di day and time? Yes. Okay so we'll do it again on Tuesday at seven o'clock. Right. Okay that's fine. Now Right now as, as we've seen that you, you're looking for this money for your daughter's future Mm. now if when I come back erm the the er the idea that erm the recommendation that I put before you, if this solves that particular need Mhm. will you be willing to go ahead with that? Yes, depending of course on what it costs me. Right. Now is, is there anyone else you will need to speak to first before you can erm actually go ahead with this? No. No no that's fine. So, so you can take full authority of this? Mm. Right. Now just so that we can get this er correct what, what sort of amount do you think you would be able to af afford on a monthly basis? Well what I want to have is erm something like twenty eight, thirty thousand pounds in ten years' time. So really you would like me to forward plan this for twenty eight to thirty thousand and whatever that costs do you think you will be able to afford that? Well let's have a look at the cost of it, you know, what sort of life cover is that going to give me immediately? Right well it will give you er I will go away and work these plans out but one that comes to mind is where there's er a life cover but it's a low level of life cover so you have more of an investment erm more of th more of your contributions goes towards the investment so that you get the bigger return in the ten years when you need it. Could you run that one by me again? Right. This is just one that's come to mind, I'm not saying it's the correct one at this stage because as I have said I would like to go away an work on these plans Mhm. but one that comes to mind is where you would have er life cover which is what you want Yes. and then it's, it's a low level and then plus the er the higher, more of the contribution goes towards the investment risk. Right. Well I'd, I'd like to have about ten thousand pounds life cover immediately. Right. Okay then. So that's fine. Okay. That's no problem, so you're looking for ten thousand pounds worth of life cover for yourself and then you're looking for twenty eight to thirty thousand for your daughter projected forward Yeah. in ten years' time. That's it. Okay that's fine. Now you consider that to be the most outstanding needs at this moment in time? Yes, yes. This is what we've covered today. Mhm. Okay. Right now as you've seen you're, you're quite erm covered in most departments there but as you've seen today that er you would like that extra bit of life cover for yourself Mhm. and the money for your daughter in the future so do you feel that it's been of some benefit to you today to have had this discussion? Well yes well I mean it'll be, be more beneficial when I know what it's go er what sort of plan you're going to present to me. Sure, sure. But of course this, this has highlighted those two key areas which you've brought up erm that you would like to address? Yes. So you feel it's been of some benefit to you today? Well as I said er I, I'll know that when you come back with, with the figures. Okay. Now if you cast your mind back to when we started the er discussion I did say I would talk about refer erm recommendations to you if you felt that this meeting had been of some benefit to yourself Mm. which you said it has, er you would perhaps recommend me to some people you know erm like the partner in your er your work or the members of your squash club. Well I think that's something that I erm we can go into when you come back next time and er I see what sort of plans you come up with. Sure. Okay but you don't mind me coming back to ask you about those, those people? No that, that no that's, that'll be okay. Right that's Finished? About it isn't it? Oh sorry. That was ac I didn't know if I'd covered all these cut. You were actually, oh, three, three three and a half minutes short, in fact you did it in about eleven and a half minutes. It's only a small subject though, it's not like That's right. This is true. Did I cover all those, all the ANNAs? Shh shh shh! Oh I'm sorry. Shh! Your name's not Joan, you're not supposed to say things now. I think I'm getting a bit of a reputation for talking when I'm not supposed to. Come on then Joan tal er tell us what you thought. I can talk ! Yes. Permission to speak. Sit you've Oh. Right. This is the most valuable part, the feedback. Okay. The things that I picked up on was erm when, when you started, I thought that overall I mean you were getting the message across and, and overall that, you know, erm there was a lot of the areas that you tackled very well, and you reverted back to your old self and you did a lot better. So than what we were talking about before you know? Right. But anyway when y when you were first exploring erm the needs and Maggie came back to you and offered erm this, this policy that she wanted for her daughter, but you never actually went back and saw if there was anything else, you never came back No that's right. you know there was I've got a policy er here that I can take out and you took it and then that was it and you spent the rest of the time talking about this one policy whereas, because you'd been thinking about that one, there may have been others that you may have been able to disturb her about or erm you know if she had other member of the family or education, whatever, there was, there was other areas that maybe you could've brought up or gone back to anyway. So that I th I think that was the biggest problem. Erm the summarizing of needs was, I thought was good. Ag again with the, the recommendations I think you, you, you went on to say can I, can I go forward in, in getting the recommendations erm without actually explaining what you were doing, you just came back and said so I'll go ahead and get the recommendations and come back and see you in two weeks' time and like what recommendation ? So erm Mm. the idea was there and the structure and everything was there it was just that you hadn't actually explained what you had to do first, you know, to come back with the erm recommendations erm but you did, you did get the date confirmed to come back for the second appointment which was good. Erm I thought that you lost er I thought that you'd forgotten about your referrals but you did actually come back to them erm and I'm not quite sure whether you actually tackled all of ANNA, I know that you got the authority, I'm not qu Yeah I I don't think you tackled all the needs in the now area of it but you got the amount at the end of it. Erm so I think in the m er in the lit in the middle of it you actually lost some of it, erm and then you came back to the, to the referrals erm tt so that was that. And a couple of other things that I wanted to, to pick up on was erm Maggie Ah, here he is. this morning?? The quicker these kids get back to school. Is it them that's causing it? Oh. It's always the same. Always the same. Every I'm just off for my my line Doctor. ? Aye. Apart from that I feel great. I've stopped smoking now for four month. Four months? Very good. The very first spending stacks of money now,? I've not got any now. Cos when you smoke you kept your money for your fags, but if you don't smoke you don't need to keep it. I thought you'd have been buying an oil well or something like that . I know, I didn't realize,. My two brothers are off on holiday now for ten days . Aye. There's a lot of folk given up, just in the past year. It's terrible. I mean that that addicted to it, I was like a heroin addict, you know? Oh aye. Oh aye, I . and all these years they spend . You I know. you telling me to stop smoking for That's right. That's right. You see, they tell you to stop smoking The day it happened the day you got this Aye. heart attack,that was it. Well what really set my mind was when I lost my sister and my brother. Mm. Cathy and Hughie like, in two Yeah. months smoking. That's right. That's right. I mean we we've got a friend and she used to smoke sixty a day, and she never even talked about stopping, till her pal, into hospital, a dif a bypass operation. And that was it. Enough. Tt! That was it. No chance. I've been off for three or four time before for long a few years and Aye. Och aye. I know but back to it. They go back to it, this is the thing. And it frightens me seeing the youngsters coming out carrying . That's right. And , you know?. A couple of youngsters yesterday, seven year old, eight year olds at the very most, they have one of these gas lighters, up round the back of the . It's so that nobody could see them. I know, you can't, you can't . can't tell them. tell mine. Right oh. born in Church Street I, I was only one, there were no brothers or sisters which for the record, I regret because all around me I had cousins, dozens of them and erm the families round me was big families and it was the, there was er times when it was bad weather or something like that and you couldn't congregate outside, you'd go to somebody's house, are you coming? No I'm stopping in with our kid, you know, and you couldn't impose on, on so er if there was fisticuffs, fights, falling out, I'll fetch our kid, I'll fetch our wench, I mean there we you used to, honestly and truthfully, you, you used to feel it, you know erm because when there was any trouble, problems or like that there was always somebody to share it well it had the advantages in some ways, perhaps you was er had a little bit more luxuries than the f bigger family, but i in my mind that didn't make up for the companionship of brothers and sisters, no b b b b that, that's w how I put it anyway. Where did you go to school? Well I started school at the erm national school in the High Street by the fountain. Erm nineteen twenty one . Erm I remem erm y you used to erm erm take, have to take exams and if you passed the exams you could go to Alma Green Secondary School. Well I was t taking piano lessons, studying for the exams I went over the top, I had to give it up and I didn't go to school then for another eighteen months. Well when I started to school I went to, back to school er I was eleven or er ten or eleven then, and I went to Field Road School that er what er Thomas's, is it, was it school? What's the name now? But anyway, Field Road Schools and that's that's where er that's where I finished with school. I finished school when I was fourteen there erm then What work did you do when you left school? When I left school, which was in nineteen thirty, it was a bad time for employment, there was a lot of unemploy unemployed people and I tried and tried and eventually I was offered a job at the Bloxwich Lock and Stamping Company in Bell Lane Alexander works, it was er er Squires's were, er it's a family er er concern, and erm it was the first offer I'd had for employment so I took it. Me mother wasn't very pleased with me going to work there but I said well it's a start so I stopped And why wasn't she pleased? Anyway to finish that story about stopping and starting, I stopped there for fifty years and me mother was still alive when er when I at ninety three and when I retired in nineteen seventy nine, nineteen eighty I told me mum that I was finishing and she looked at me I told you that job wouldn't last and I, I, I mean I'd done fifty years all but a few months. Why didn't she want you to work there? Well er er it hadn't, well I dunno whether I should record this, it hadn't very good reputation for pay and employment, but anyway She thought you could do better than that. Yeah. Anyway I, that's what happened, I was there, I, I started. Mind you er I started and finished there but erm we was engaged, oh I have talked to other people but we was engaged in making locks but most of the locks, well they did do a, er wardrobe locks, small cabinet locks, lever locks but one of the biggest kind of locks we di er made was the locks for car cars and vans which, in them days, was was fantastic because most of the car bodies was of wood, the, the, the, the framework was wood, so erm the locks er were three or four, four by five er seven by eight and selvedges on them fourteen inches long, er bolts er the, the bolt mechanism would be anything from five eighths to an inch in di er er square with a radius on the end erm th there was er there was the sidecar locks which were smaller erm that was the sort of locks they made. Now in the lock museum I've taken some locks th that I collected and took them over there they used to do speed locks butted locks sidecar locks er then, as the motor trade changed from all wood frames to metal frames, other types of locks, I took there but this is what is amazing me, they, at the lock museum they highlight all the Willinghall locks which are the padlocks, which are locks er wardrobe locks, cabinet locks and all the smaller type of locks but there was the biggest industry, I mean Walsall locks are still in existence now, they made er er locks for, for, for cars, the Bloxwich lock, that was their biggest trade was er, was er the bigger locks. There, there d they don't seem to be no mention of th this side of the lock industry. Were there any other lock manufacturers in Bloxwich itself? Pardon? Were there any other lock manufacturers in Bloxwich itself? Not as er er er erm Wilks's er well I don't think they er Wilks's that's i in, where works By the gardens? By the gardens, in the corner, they made er parts but I mean I've never been in, in the factory, in their factory, but I do know that they made erm things for the motor industry. One of their products was erm you, when you see in the cars th th that they can er make them open top and they close the backs down, there's a bracket on the side that er hinges up and well they used to special you know, it had come from the landaus of the horse drawn vehicle, the same sort of thing, well they used to specialize in that and they used to make some kind of locks but I'm I have never talked to anybody that worked there so I, I don't know, but that's the only other one as I, as I'm aware of er was the, was Wilks's and er Bloxwich Lock. Mm. So you were at Bloxwich Lock in nineteen thirty nine when the second world war broke out then? That's right, yes. What impact did that have on what impact did that have on the factory? Did they Well we cha er move over to war work? Yes we changed to war work and er one of the, something, we made a, a lock which was a very very heavy duty, was the lock for the tanks. Oh it was er it was about six pound in weight when you put it together anyway, and erm used to make parts for aircraft and parts for the dropping of the bombs which we called drop bars. This was a bar that er went under the bomb like that when they fastened them up, and then when they dropped the bombs this bar was in a clip, like where me finger is,i in a clip so when they released them it dropped out of this clip the bar went as well of course, down that went down went the bomb drop bars with it used to be make them day and night and things like that and er of course there was er Bloxwich Lock and Stamping we used to do odd stamping, odd forgings and things li and er that was other part of the war work. But it was then, it was from er shop floor that I that the, when the call went out for volunteers for, for the armed forces which initially was called Land Defence Volunteers, L D V, which eventually was broken down to look, duck and vanish army. That was before it was nominated as the, the Home Guard, that's what it originally was, the Land Defence Volunteers. Well when it was started up, the first unit that I was with was from the shop floor at Bloxwich Lock and Stamping and erm it took the nucleus of people off the shop floor and then after we'd finished our ten hour shift during the summer or when we could, we started foot drill training in the yard of the factory. That's when Major , who was on the photo, he was Major in the army of nineteen fourteen eighteen M C Major M C, military cross well he took charge and er a chap off the shop floor, well he was an old contemptible of the nineteen fourteen to eighteen war, name of Bert he was made Sergeant because he was only one who had got any military experience, and he started with us on the shop floor in doing foot drill. Unfortunately one day when it was earlier on he, he got his commands mixed up and we was m marching down the yard and the drive, and we was marching towards the factory up and down and right wheel and about turn, left wheel, basic foot drill you know it had been going for about ten minutes and all and we was going down towards the factory and erm we kept on going, we was getting close to the factory and he, he he forgot his words forgot what er command he wanted to give and he shouted stop you'll be in the bloody factory in a minute instead of sa shouting halt, you know, he, he got flummoxed. Oh Were you issued with any uniforms? The first er things we had was arm bands which had, had L D V on, that was the first uni type of anything we had for recognition was them. And then we had the er the battledress was issued, the khaki, and erm we was had our head headquarters were started, the headquarters were started in an office at, one of the office rooms at the at the Bloxwich Lock and Stamping Company by the, the top offices we used to call them, by the gates, we had one of the rooms there for and it eventually became the armoury when we got some equipment because rifles etcetera was in very short supply after Dun Dunkirk So eventually we had a few rifles and er when the er we got a few rifles and er the sirens went it was the practice at the beginning when the sirens went in this area for everything to stop and everyone down the shelter but it happened four or five times, everybody realized how non-productive this was, that the time that was lost and there was nothing happening in this area so it was decided by the R T B that we, the, the people off the shop floor wouldn't stop work until the attack was really imminent or it had started because if this, this was happening all over the Midlands area and of course if you, if you multiply that by the number of people at work you can imagine how much production was lost erm and also when the sirens went Major at the factory used to get the chappies out from off the shop floor, get the few rifles we'd got, take we in to King George's playing fields there was a, a brook running across King George's playing fields then, it hadn't and a trench which was extended to stop er aircraft from landing in King George's cos it was just a big open space. Well when the sirens went at the beginning, what few rifles we'd got, he'd er take us out and string we out along this brook, a rifle every so often and and facing one way and looking round to see when anything goes up and in case anybody come over or anything come over and er that was the initial start. But afterwards, as things got, there was erm a look out post built on the flat roof of one of the buildings at the factory and then er there used to be, when the sirens went, there'd be look outs in this er observation post on top of the factory. Well So how did that work then if, if if the look out could spot some aircraft Er they they could er we er ring a buzzer in the factory, ring the buzzer in the factory then, the factory buzzer would go then. And then production stopped did it ? And they went down the shelter. Was the factory camouflaged in any way? No it wasn't. No. I mean it stuck out like a sore thumb, I mean er by King George's playing fields erm cos of the, they hadn't the,th the, the s other story for that was as I said was we they sent er some of us to a class in Walsall for er aircraft recognition and er the days I went to this class, cos I went as er, er both for the factory and for the Home Guard, so that I could cover both the factory and when I were on duty, Home Guard and we was at a building on the corner of Corporation Street and west, and we was taking classes in there. Then we was taken out of there into the Corporation Street where the fair used to be held and we had silhouettes of different aircraft on poles and holding them up and we er so as we could recognize them. We came back from there back into the rooms that we having instructions in and continued with our lessons. Then when we finished and come out we er there was such a commotion in the street while we were in there taking aircraft spotting a, a German aircraft had come over and it had dropped a bomb on the gasworks had the plane, and we had known nothing about it . Fortunately though this bomb didn't explode else i i we should of known about it. But when I got back to work the people that was in the observation post on the factory, they saw this aircraft, it came down low over the King George's playing fields and they could see the markings on it and they'd sounded the alarm but but course the aircraft went straight over. But that was, well I was at aircraft spotting class when that happened. Did you have any special instruction in first aid or fire fighting? No. No, none at all. We had a basic training for, for the, for the arms for weapons drill and erm, course none of us had ever er had a rifle in our hands until this, never mind fired one. Well after er we, things be begin to get more organized, people from outside the factory was drafted into the unit so i it began to be build up on that. Chappies off the shop floor were called up so they gradually less from the factory cos er er er there was less male employees in the factory, they went in the servi so outside uni outside people as had volunteered and got their names down that things got organized, the unit was from all over Bloxwich then. But that w that was how it was started was at, at the Lock at Bloxwich Lock. So the whole of Bloxwich Home Guard really started Yeah at the Bloxwich Lock Yeah that's right and then it that was the first it gradually became Bloxwich Home first unit yeah. Guard. Course eventually the, I mean, there was er there was Sergeant who was a butcher out the High Street there was Alf was a barber out of the High Street there was er Frank, Frank he was another butcher out of the High Street there was er miners er teachers, I mean there was quite a mixture of occupations in, in the, in the Home Guard. How did you get on together, alright? Yes, yes. We we was I can't recall any falling out, you know what I mean? Er there was good companionship, good comradeship amongst everybody. Erm course the first guard duties, guard unit was at the Bloxwich Lock in the office that was allow er allocated to us. It became the armoury then and er we used to do guard duty on the armoury every night there was someone on guard duty. One night Major ,Deekie as he was known, came down to inspect and the young chappy who was on guard, he challenged him properly er before he allowed him to advance towards him but after he'd advanced toward him and he'd been recognized Major says is the rifle alright? And he says yes, he said can I have a look? And he gives it to him! Anyway that, that I mean lack of experience, lack of knowledge and, put that down to, probably but that's just another story. Well then as the unit got bigger, as I said, the room at the offices in the Lock wasn't big enough so we moved from there to Alma Green Infant School, that's the school now they used for all kinds of social activities during the day and th on that side by the car park. Well we had a r a sch classroom in the infants school there for our headquarters and er storing cos we used to make use, we had a palliasse on the floor for when we was on night duty erm but I can never understand why we had our he headquarters over there but we had to do guard duties over in the elementary school on th school on the other side because that was the only one that had got a telephone and we had to man the telephones from the Brigade Headquarters or the to be able to phone to should they want us to be called out and so we had to do the guard duty over there but we slept in the, when we was off duty we was in er Alma Green School and that was there and then the we moved from there eventually and th th the longest part of our life of the Home Guard, the headquarters was at the cottage, I've been trying to think what the name of the cottage is, it ha it, it has a name it's the cottage next door to the Sir Robert Peel public house in Bell Lane. It's the er cottage that's still, the other buildings all around it have gone, it's the cottage that er next to the Sir Robert Peel, that was the that became the, that house became the headquarters, er How many men would be in the Home Guard after you moved your head Eh? How many men were there actually in the Bloxwich Home Guard? Well I mean that photo When you that I've got, that was the complete unit for the Company. I've been trying to think what we what the n whether it was D Company or C Company but I can't recall, that was the Company, that was, I just D Company of the er South Staffs of the whole Walsall area you see, that was D Company. I er Did you ever join forces with any other Companies for training? Oh yes yes, I can yes. Well er I was saying er we, we went to the the cottage by the Sir Robert Peel and that, that was our final headquarters, that was where we was until the Home Guard was stood down. Because they, they they'd got cellars in that cottage so that the cellars became the ar armoury and there was erm ammunition and everything in there and the back of there, which was the garden, we could use as, as parade area so it was it was very central and that's where we finished up as headquarters for I'll say D Company, for Bloxwich. Yes we was, we got out with others. I remember once we was called out on the actual called out for actual sighting of s there was supposed to have been some activity over er Bentley so we was all called out and the assembly point was at Tolbertstead's works in Green Lane and we assembled er in the, at Tolberstead's and then we was sent out as search groups er from there right across Bentley. Now when you say right across, I mean you you've ta seen the photos of, of er shell pitted ground with the nineteen fourteen eighteen war, well that's how Bentley was then cos it had been rooted for coal and nineteen twenty six strike everybody got it all out cos there was a lot of top surface coal, course it was just left there was a lot of mole holes, stuff from the furnaces when they tip tipped the slag, it was up and down and there was Buttons Brook, wasn't it Buttons Brook across there, called Buttons Brook there was a pool across there called Leg of Lamb but I mean it, it er you can imagine what I'm trying to say, what the ground was like to go over in pitch black night, to go over there and we went out and course we was issued with er ammunition which was one of the o only times I can remember when we went really out prepared with live ammunition, and er we scouted and scouted till daybreak and we didn't find nothing. Then when we come back to stand down, we came back to Tolbertstead well we was in Tolbertstead so the Tolbertstead canteen staff got some hot prepared some hot drinks and so when we come back we was able to have a hot drink and erm it was the duty of er the sergeants to see that the rifles were empty free, no am no, there wasn't er there wasn't one up the spout, one bullet left in the, in the rifle and er Sergeant , the barber, was checking our rifles anyway he, he was check, check, check, check and er alright he mischecked one and pulled the trigger and there was a bullet through the roof in the, in the he was holding it up or otherwise there'd have been somebody on the floor but er he, he missed this one bullet through the canteen roof. And then we used to do erm exercises with er from different areas, they'd come and attack our area or we'd come and try and in il infiltrate in their area and er we had, we had a night exercise and we was erm went out Saturday afternoon, we was out all Saturday night and Sunday and on the Sunday mid day we was still er out and we was in the farmyard at the farm at end of Brierley's Lane by Bell Lane, off Bell Lane, Brierley's Lane right at other end, we was in their farmyard and their outer buildings and we was str put out on guard duty from the Stafford Road to Broad Lane, and we was protecting that area, they were supposed to be coming from the Cannock area towards us and er we was in the, in the farmyard and course the m muck and stuff and all that out of the farmyard was there and the ducks was wallowing in it. Anyhow we was supposed to, they set a field kitchen up in the farmyard to, as part of the exercise, to feed us er and er they handed out some meat pies, you know, we just had one ta oh taste and well you never tasted anything like it in all Anyway nobody would eat them, the ducks well they were they was rolling in all the muck in the farmyard but they, they went to the pies just put their noses round them and turned them over and then they s and true as god made little apples they started walking round these pies and they left them and they were still there when we went away . But they wouldn't, they wouldn't eat them. That was our first attempt at a field kitchen We erm when we got back to s be stood down we was told by the er umpires that was stationed there that our headquarters had been wiped out. They'd come from the other way from er Snade Lane not Broad Lane, they'd come up from they'd come farther round, round and come in th in round the back sort of thing and we we'd got no headquarters any more . So we'd had a we'd been out all night and all day and achieved nothing but it was, course it was exercises. But erm Tell me something of the hours you used to work at that time. Pardon? How many hours a week did you use to work at your job? Oh we used to work er f er six days a week, er all day Saturdays erm eight to eight and er eight till eight at n at er eight till seven at night or er or eight till eight at erm most shifts was early, they used to have a a an hour er an hour break of a dinner time er sometimes they only used to have half an hour at night because, I mean well once you've got er y y you was there, once you get you shift done it was no good sitting there doing for an hour and er it, it varies on what production what was wanted and how far advanced you was or how far behind you was, you know, but er the average hours was as I say was ten hours a shift that was working shift, you worked ten hours and then a break in between, ten minutes, half an hour And what hours did you have to put in for your Home Guard duty ? You used to have to do er all night from seven till seven erm you was on, called out for er on weekends you had to parade every Sunday morning. See th this is what I'm saying, you'd done all them hours and then you was at it again on the weekend. You'd g had to parade on the Sunday erm for weapon training, and one Sunday we earlier on, we hadn't fired a rifle, so it was arranged for us to fire a rifle at a rifle range. So we was er called out at nine o'clock on the Sunday morning transport was laid on and we was taken over to, to fire in woods at Fradley, the other side of Lichfield. We was there till six o'clock in the afternoon and it took us from the er ten o'clock in the morning, say about ten when we got there, it took us from ten till six to fire five rounds of ammunition because there was that many there and you had to wait your turn. While they went into the firing blackboards to fire your rounds and you, all you was allowed to fire was five five and then you had to wait, take your turn course everybody had got to go in, they'd got to check them as everybody got had fired their five there weren't one left up the spout like there was before, course it took time see, and it took us a day, I would say a day, to fire five rounds of ammunition. And that was the only time that I've fired a rifle cos, well actually I went got, rose to a corporal I was a corporal when they finished and erm I was in er made cor lance corporal and then I was er with a heavy Vickers machine gun, that's the one with the has water cooled casing on it the big heavy one you see, and I was with that, that team. Then when I took er you'd you could take a proficiency test which was held at, at your Company Headquarters by a visiting officer and erm I then, we'd, by then we'd had some American weapons come, one was the Browning automatic which is a very very good good er weapon, you could r fire single shots or rapid shots. It was the American equivalent to the Bren gun only it, it was more like a rifle, it hadn't got a stand, you know, more like a rifle butt, you know. And I, I was issued with that and er I took lessons on it up at head at headquarters and then when I took me proficiency test, I was asked questions on the Browning automatic and other ap things appertaining to the army and I passed me proficiency test. That's the certificate which I regret now is with South Staffs museum at Lichfield. Also a photo of all the officers of Walsall that I saw in a second hand shop and I went and bought it for a few pence. And I'd got them here and I thought well I don't know what to do with them and I b b interested in I'm interested in going back in time, I'll go anywhere where I can see something and I'd been over there and they'd got some Home Guard stuff in a case, only a small show, and I asked them if they'd like it and they said yes. Well I've took that, I took that some years ago but I've never seen it on show you know? And I, I, I mean I've r now that we, Walsall's got their own department I wish I'd of kept on to it, it'd of been interesting. But that's where it is. And me proficiency c certificate, I took that as well and they had that as well. And so you, you, you I had stepped up a bit in, in in rank, I'm a but erm there was being, on the social side course being next to the Sir Robert Peel, when we went down there, it was quite handy although I'm not a drinking man, I never have been, I'll go and socialize and I'll have half a pint or two halves but I'd never I've never been one to go out drinking . And of course when you was er wasn't on guard duty at the f early evening, course there used to be used to pop into the Peel and have a couple of halves or some would have a pint and there was a chap in, in the Home, Home Guard he, he used to be able to play the piano so we used to have a singsong in there for a social, you know. But erm the comradeship there, I mean you very often see chappies now I d know them from the Home Guard, but otherwise I shouldn't have known them. You were telling me erm a little while back that erm you were made to go and work at Bilston. Yeah. Can you tell me about that? Well this was a Manpower Board that came round and they was inspecting erm what people were doing in the particular factory at and if they thought you'd be more useful somewhere else then they'd direct you to another factory. So this is what they did, directed me to Bradley's at Bilston which I er stayed at until the war finished. Er it was ooh all female labour. There's some of them was Irish. Some of the labourers, the male labourers, was Italian prisoners of war And the things that they used to make in their spare time, well some of them was very very clever, you know. Such as? They used to make like ornaments out of scrap things, you know oh they was alright, they, they used to bring them in a a lorry used to bring them er in a morning then collect them at night you know. And they used to, not make anything, but they used to do the labouring, movement of work and all like that. They didn't make things but they was responsible for moving things about. Where did they come from? Where were they kept? I don't know where they was actually, somewhere on The Chase I think but I'm not sure where I'm not sure where they come from. What did they actually make at Bradley's during the war years? During the war they made er mortar bomb fins. Erm fifty pound, bigger bomb fins the er the, the fins. You've seen the er round, say th looking fro on the top of the bomb i it's round and then there's fins down to the bomb itself er you follow me? Well we used to make those rings and put the fins on, rivet them on, and the bombs, the, the, the the rings was erm seamlessly weld on a a welder that you two w wheels which were electrically driven and the power was put through them and, and you overlap the two seams like that, and it, as the wheels went round it'd weld them straight along, they was about eight inches deep seam weld them right down. Er mortar bombs, they used to weld the fins on that, do those on stitch welders, they'd go up and down similar to these things you see now. It was the beginning of these automatics, you've seen these photos on the, on the television where these welders come down and they go in like this, well these was the beginning of that sort of thing because it was worked with a motor and a cam which er er the cam went round and it'd lift the arm up and when it was went past the, the knuckle it'd drop down and the speed you them out or the speed you sent them out how fast the arm would go up and down, and that was stitch welding. Another was spot welding and they used to make er different containers for the, the army. We still made a certain amount of buckets and bins and things like that which was their stock in trade, but mostly it was erm was erm bomb fins and mortar bombs aerial bombs erm er and er things like er fins for bombs like that. But they still did do a certain amount of er the stock in trade course the bins for g for transporting stuff in and all like that. They had, there, there was a small section still made kettles during the war cos I mean kettles wore out, wear out just the same, you've still got to have a kettle or a bucket, but erm that's like everything else there was only, only a small section so they was in short supply. But erm I stopped there till the war was finished and then er I went back to the Lock and as asked them if th there was any chance of coming back to work there, you know, cos and er they said oh yes, as long as you like. So the first opportunity I had I left Bradley's and went back to the Lock so it'd been war direction, war service we asked and it counted as me service with the Lock, that I hadn't interrupted me service being as I was directed so that's how I say I had fifty years at the Lock. I've got the watch upstairs for twenty six years, when I did twenty six years. Erm but er when the war finished, when the war finished and the Home Guard stood down, I can't remember who was the mayor of Walsall at the time, but they had a reception in the town hall for the Home Guard and everyone that was in the Home Guard was invited before we hand before we st handed our uniforms in, was invited to attend and I must say with great pride that I was can still remember it now, that the wife and I went to the reception and I was in the uniform and it'd be the mace bearer I presume that was at the door and he asked your name and er rank and he shouted out your name and rank when you went in and you was greeted by the mayor and mayoress inside the ves the hall of the town hall, and erm I mean er quite proud to be Corporal and Mrs you know and it I mean everyone that went, I mean their rank and name and who was with them, you know, was it was quite quite a er er quite a something of to look back to of interest that was, you know, when we stood down. Was there a ceremonial parade to mark the standing down of the Home Guard? Yes we m yes there was. This was be this was er er there was a ceremonial parade when we stood down but this was er erm something that like that the town in recognition of the Home Guard Cos when the Home Guard was stood down it was a national er a national standing down so everybody all over the country er everybody in the country there'd be a er a parade of some sort but this was for the Walsall detachment of the South Staffs Home Guard that was invited to, to the town hall for er a reception, it was quite it stood in re er I still can remember about it quite quite something to look back on that was really. Did, did they parade through Bloxwich? No. Well the parade was er a er er in Walsall erm in front of the town hall where they normally when they have a military parade or a parade of that sort, you know,is at the front of the town hall. It was there, Lichfield Street isn't it? Yeah. Yes, no we, we er er all the, see, it was all the units. We did once ha er have er exhibition i er for the Bloxwich people erm one, one Saturday. We put on a display of marching or and er weaponry we'd got in King George's playing fields and er talk about the weapons er er er br brings to mind we had a, a weapon that was a anti-tank weapon and it was a Robin Robinson Heath er contraption made up of a tube, cast iron tube on a three legged tripod with er a hinge ring on the one end which had a recess for a cap and a trigger to, to fire this cap. Now it was a anti-tank weapon only you put a bottle in the tube, or a, a container that had got a i a liquid, I've been trying to think what it is, can you tell me a liquid that bursts into fl flame when it's exposed? Er er it was like a Molotov co bo cocktail, a thing like that and you put it in the, in the tube and you put a wad of cotton, gun cotton behind it closed the flap at the back onto er just a latch, like a, a door a gate latch which locked it, then fired the cap which fired the gun cotton which sent the well then we we're trying this out on the waste ground where the, that was then, where the waterworks' offices are now in Green Lane, well there that was, at that time, that was a glue factory that was the glue factory there ooh. Well we was in that area trying this gun out in one of the mole holes that was over there and we'd fired one, that was alright. We fired another one but the container broke and the vaporized stuff, it was vaporized er with the explosion, blowed on to us and it burnt. Fortunately w the canal was close to, we all er rushed to the canal and wash our hands in the canal and wash our face cos the vapour had gone on to us. That was the Roberts that that was another Robinson. Also when we was giving this demonstration for the people in Bloxwich for the, our unit in King George's playing fields, we'd got all our weaponry on, on, on show what we'd got Vickers machine gun, the Brownings rifles this anti-tank bomb anti-tank tube, whatever you li gun, whatever you like to call it, but also we'd got what, what was termed a bucket bomb. It was a big contraption on a cross with er girders like, cross, like a cross. And inside was what tha in the middle was like a bucket container, like er it was a, a, a, a kind of a mortar and you fired this mortar with a er a charge and it fired. This was a anti-tank and it fired a bomb and of course we put a demonstration on firing this and then we was up the Bell Lane end and right at the top by Bailey's farm there was a row of seats, benches, along the walk there and of course the demonstration was we'd show them imagine those seats are tanks course we never thought in the world we should ever even get near one anyway we hit one and broke it Cos they, they, I mean they was only dummies, they weren't, I mean there was no explosive just the dummy shell you know and we, we was quite pleased with ourselves being as we'd got an audience. Yeah. Were there any searchlight batteries or anything of that nature in Bloxwich? There were searchlights but not attached to us. We, we had them about that. Before I left the Lock and I was on nights the sirens went one night and this was before they stopped going down the shelter we went down the air raid shelter that is, now, is the cellar to the club at Bloxwich Lock's club! It was the air raid shelter then and we went down there and we was in the shelter and er we'd been down there ten minutes to quarter of an hour oh there was such a bang outside we thought this is it, you know, all the bits and stones and rubbish and er that was stuck on the ceiling was disturbed you know and it down it on top of us, you know, all bits and plaster and water th it was er shi close. Course creeps out up to the steps, look out the shelter oh the factory's still here anyway. Wonder wh well what's that, you know,be a bang so close well it wasn't till, till some time after we found out that they'd stationed a naval gun somewhere Newtown way and they'd f fired this gun to, as a practice. Course that was only time it was ever fired because it was, it had caused that much disturbance and disruption with the gun. I don't know what size gun it was, you know, or any details but that's what we found out what the bang was and it, it moved on to somewhere else, they didn't fire it again. It was while the air raid sirens was o air raid was alert was still on. But there was no aircraft but it was just a practice fire, you know. Course everybody was, was er in, looking fin wondering where the what had happened. But the funniest part about it was in King George's playing fields where the cricket club is at the beginning of the war that was a A R P assembly point for the A R P wardens. When we eventually came out, when the sirens er all clear went we came out look at that there in the A R P warden's er in the A R P's pavilion, the cricket pavilion there was a skylight there was no blackout to it was there beacon of light the A R P had caught us Where was the searchlight battery in Bloxwich then? You say it wasn't by the Lock. I really don't know, I can't say as er er as I ever, ever seen a unit in, in this area at all. Course though they had the bombs drop down the road here, they had a bomb drop just down the road here. There was a bomb Where was that? Eh? Where was that then? When? Where? Just down the road here it was just down in, in Howard Street. In Mm mm? Yeah. Yes they had one down there. I mean they weren't badly Me father at th er at the beginning of the war he worked he worked at the Grove pit, down the mine at the Grove and he used to be on afternoons. And of course when he was coming home in the middle of the night from afternoons, biking it and the one night they came he was coming home you know the finger post at Pelsall? Norton Road is it? From there to the Watling Street where the Grove pit used to be, straight the way along go over the railway bridge, you know, it's the turn, well Grove pit was right in there. Well he was well he was coming from the Grove to the finger post to come along Wolverhampton Road, Lichfield Road, to come home to Church Street. The cornfields on each side of the road was on fire from incendiaries. Yeah. And for soon after that me father had to give up the mine be because of his health and he went to work at the depot er were the bus depot and he worked in the battery house where they made all the batteries up, charged the batteries for the buses, looked after the electrical side there was electrician, he weren't, me father weren't electrician but he was working with electrician but his main job was charging the batteries, putting them on in groups in the, in the er battery house and charging house, to keep all the batteries charged up for all the buses petrol buses tr and trolley buses. And er th they used to make some of the batteries up, the cells, the, the used to er I don't know if you've ever seen a cell in a battery, it's usually made up of er wood er lead and wood. Well they used to, if a battery couldn't be, you can charge it up but if it breaks through from one cell to the other a a across with sediment in the bottom, so it gaps that cell and that cell so you can charge it forever because the one's discharging the other with the sediment that's arrested in the bottom cos i it's like putting a connection across, so it never actually charges. So things like, you know and erm he worked there from, till he was sixty seven, you know, in er erm so that's where he finished up were there. But do you only deal with history or have you had anything to do with this exhibition as to the trams and, and trolley buses here? Er Er where the bus depot What's that? That's all right it's what Bit scary isn't it? Okay so has anybody had a chance to look at some of the things er Okay so if you want to talk about what you've got. Was it you two who were gonna go Scott and Rebecca who were gonna do the talk. Hang on you can You can I can get chip in Chip in. You all the responses and things like that. Say I agree with that. And I'll keep quiet and all to myself. Okay go for it. Are we still doing anything about I've got to I've got some inf information about . Yeah. First. I've got this Yeah yeah look Ah no we haven't discussed it yet. Oh superb. We'll discuss that after you've took a look at When's your interview? Next week? Er It's it's supposed to be due in Friday week three But I think sometime during week four. Oh that's good, thank you. Yeah. Right so the thing is if we talk about what you've read and then The idea is that if there's anything out of you've read that's given you an idea for an essay then you can do that. thank you And if not we can think of something more specific afterwards. But we'll go through what you've read first and then try to work something. a definition sort of Says it ready to make stereotype judgements about personality, E G you can tell he's anxious by his voice is in inverted commas or she sounds very strong minded. And this type of stereotypical link has led to various experiments. At the first experiment of er I think of this kind it was er in nineteen sixty. Who had done it already despite the English, French Canadians and how they felt about each other. And er they felt had little prestige and that the French peop The French Canadian speakers had little prestige in their own language. But er e English er guises were favoured more than the French ones even by the French themselves. And er o despite that sort of just said something about the procedure but we'd already done that. So there wasn't really There wasn't really a great deal of er sort of stuff here but it was more about sort of language and shifts so I had to like shift through it and find the bits Right. that were more er. Well these sort of languages often considered to be the central pillar to group attachment and er official agencies like government an and things like historically support group language purity. And er a although we usually associate language identity with minority groups, linked with minority groups er it's quite important that we don't erm dismiss the prominence it has in majority groups as well. And it quotes Quote from nineteen eighty four. Who says that the best predictor of future social behaviour is is past social behaviour all things being equal and er as any assessment of linguistic of a linguistic scene will profit from an historical awareness. Anyway er. Oh yeah, that's right. It says he believed that the historical awareness will help any linguistic scene to profit. An analysis of what people have done is likely to be useful not only in ascertaining what they're likely to do but also what their linguistic needs are. he's just saying that in a group if we look at the historical background of the language, it helps to see you know how What the strong points are of the linguistic and what we need to be bolstered on. Er if we're to understand the dynamics of language in our density and how it exists in the minds of ordinary speakers we must consider the real life record. So he looks at Island and America. He looks at Island er and the Irish language and in America he looks at immigrant e adaptation and the value of the historical record in each. Erm he also states that the erosion of language does not mean the erosion of an identity. And essentially identity revolves around the idea of political boundaries and groups. And language and identity is not indis er indissoluble link. So if you know language and identity need not be together cos identity is er essentially political as opposed to linguistic. But is common that they both are together in that way. Er Right he says on the subject of attachment of identity and language and why and why not language is maintained, he cites Harris and and the Yiddish and Na-dene speakers. Vis-a-vis Hebrew. Yiddish yiddish served as a lingua franca for Jews. And Na-dene did for the Jews. When the sates of Hebrew heightened thus becoming the language of Israel, Yiddish and Na-dene became somewhat redundant and er in his survey of America In his study of Amer In his study of m the U S he found that seventy five percent of the s people who spoke Na-dene, couldn't give a reason er a proper reason for passing their language on to the er children. Because i i they though it was in competition with other varieties around and it something t It wasn't necessarily to do with the fact that erm they though it was less it held less prestige in the community. It was just that erm the other varieties around were competing too heavily against it so they thought what's the point of passing it on to the children. And er let's think That's it on that. I think. Cos there wasn't really much Okay. on it. I did the Maastricht one well as which is a bit more to do. The Maastricht you know Yeah tell us a bit about it cos Okay this was a bit better this. Right the situation in Maastricht up till the nineteenth century was that It was described as a di- or tri-glossic erm linguistic community. With French and standard Dutch as competing high varieties and the dialect of Maastricht as a common variety. Which is like the third of the tri-glossic What was it German and French? No French and standard Dutch. And Maastricht was the common variety. And er the dialect today whenever this experiments was which year it was but it said today. The dialect is still very unlike Dutch itself on levels of phonology, morphology and lexis itself. You know it doesn't It doesn't like look too much like the standard Dutch. And and a funny thing is, it's not limited to social class within Holland itself. I it seems to be functional, so you know you get like lawyers and farmers and all sorts of people using it. So it's a the tests it was a match-guising experiment and the tests er tested sixty four people who were aged the ages were fifty five plus, thirty to forty five and fifteen to twenty. They were sort of equally distributed in those ages. And er process was er match-guising so it was You know they were list They listened to three different people well th th they thought it was three people it was one person doing three ac the three accents er dialects sorry. And er it was the process was analyzed on a list of personal tracks. And er Oh there was one other thing . The match-guising results were interesting because instead of the typical prestige of the standard language, and the attractiveness of a dia You know a If you did R P and say er Cockney, you'd probably get people saying that their R P was prestigious but the cockney was sort of more you know y more friendly and more attractive accent. Er it was found that the status items were about the same for both. So there wasn't a great difference bet The status items of things like honesty and er leadership and stuff like that. The items weren't greatly different on scores between they had a little graph . But st standard Dutch won on leadership but the other status items shows sort of scores that were very close to each other and they're not significantly different. That was it . Okay that's . Okay what have you Got a bit from Erm the match-guise erm it helps to show the stage in attitudes. How they were towards peoples of other languages or language varieties. Erm you know it just says about how they carry it out about subjects assumes that er the samples. And and judgements are made on intelligence, personality and suitability and particular occupations and although they're only limited speech samples erm many subjects judge them. Erm Sorry what were the erm things that related to personality? Intelligence and suitability and particular occupations. And then it was saying about quantitative and qualitative measures. Quantitative measures may allow a discovery of pattern in the situations which might otherwise merely be seen as random variation. Not really talking about the issues, just Yeah I mean if you're looking at quantitative things it's really you know how much actual How much variation happens whereas qualitative is you know what the actual variations entails entails. you know what the actual quality of the variations are. Okay. Erm. Judging occupational suitability presumes a hierarchy and what this is must be determined erm differently for every culture being investigated. And second one is a book by Beardsmoor and he sheep says about the Canadian soc social psychologist W E Lambert who was the one that match-guise technique erm and basically he's just kind of saying about the technique that it shows corre correlations between the degree of bilingual ability and attitudinal dispositions. Erm and it's sort of erm features that are expressed er like intelligent and then intelligent er it reveals to what extent subjects perceive speakers in a particular language as having desirable or undesirable traits with which they may or may not wish to identify. Erm and this technique can trigger comunic communally shared stereotyped images of a linguistic community and reveal the degree of tolerance erm for the different erm languages. And then the other one is the one that I got from the library by Luhmann. Erm that's a b bit too But it's it's about Appalachian English? Appalachian. Okay. Appalachian then. Erm Who's this book by? Luhmann L U H M A double N. Appalachian English is one of the surviving non-standard regional dialects of English in the United States and it's associated with the residents of the Appalachian mountain range. Erm it's a community isolation because is like mountains around which makes barriers against physical mobility that can't really be moved round that easily. Erm so they just kind of stay put and so the dialects thrive because it's just such a physical It's in physical and social isolation. Erm and then it's talking about standard variety that it's usually the standard variety that's accepted as the proper one when compared to other like smaller varieties erm dialects and stuff. The low status dialects are associated with neg negative prestige. Erm Appalachian English differs from standard American English in grammar, phonology, lexicon and intonation. Erm and then just generally language is far more than just a means of communication. It symbolizes our social experience and locates us with social groups from which we draw our identities. Erm and none standard language varieties are associated with those social status groups erm they acquire status evaluation, their speakers. Erm the speakers on the samples are either bilingual or bi-dialectal and erm the dialects listed are in between standard American English and the eastern Kentucky sub-dialect of Appalachian English. There's four bi-dialectal speakers two males and two females, erm who are also actors and native speakers natives of Kentucky erm And then it g And then it goes into the the different factors of Appalachian English. but we don't really need to go into that do we? No . Erm Oh and here's a quote. In almost any country standards speakers and non-standard speakers view the former as more successful, intelligent, ambitious, wealthy and educated. The status of items that were looked at er educated and uneducated, intelligent unintelligent, wealthy poor, successful unsuccessful, and ambitious and carefree. And solidarity items were trustworthy untrustworthy, good bad, sympathetic unsympathetic, friendly unfriendly, honest dis dishonest and dependable and unreliable. Erm they were eight speech samples without taking a breath. Erm and they were also asked where the where they though the speaker was from. So the results that were got, is that the Kentucky accented speech was high in solidarity and low in status. And the standard English was high status and low solidarity. So the stereotype of Appalachian English speakers is that they're not very intelligent, they've got a lack of ambition and success and a poor education. Erm and the two the two females in the solidarity evaluations they it was constant the d There wasn't any change erm across the two guises but with the males there was a significantly higher score in solidarity when they were in the Kentucky accented guises. Erm so the er Kentucky people were erm not am ambitious and not educated wasn't it? Low intelligence, lack of ambition and success, and poor education. That's about it. Oh the stereotypes serve to strengthen ethnic identification and group boundaries. In such social social settings linguistic differences become important boundary markers that require careful cultivation. Good. You said that some of their actual differences in speech ? Yeah. Erm it's talking about glide reduction. What does it say? What what reduction? Glide. Glide? Yeah. Is it an eliminator? Yeah elimination of the off glide on a word such as my which becomes ma. Okay so The sound at the end of my er it would seem to have like a glide What's the difference between a glide and a diphthong ? Er I not really sure it depends on what you mean in that particular context. I mean in som In some ways in the word my it might have part of that symbol you write with a J in it. You know might be part of a actually a continuant rather than a vowel. And it could be the fact that maybe that's getting reduced. And as I say they would . Erm They just That was the only example they gave and said that as the word Well it well it could b Right I mean it could be that that the th the glide from first vowel in the diphthong to the second one and that that's gone off so you're left wi with a No yeah I guess it's probably just that he glide up to the second part of the diphthong,has been displaced so you've just got the first part of it left , Mm. so it's a single vowel. Then another thing was Unstressed ing. That erm instead of saying ng they pronounced it as just N. In words such as building graduating and nothing it would just be an N on the end like buildin graduatin . Erm They dropped the final consonant in a co If there was like a consonant cluster at the end of the wor word. So instead of saying kept they'd just say kep . Erm of a unstressed syllable erm like X in except, so they'd just say except. Erm and of initial like instead of saying them they'd say just say em. Erm Oh yeah substitution of A for What's that with an A and a U ? Er ow? Ow. Which makes Yeah which makes for of Our and Are. Substitution of I for E so instead of forget you know I for E So instead of saying forget you'd say forgit . And rising pitch in declarative sentences. That's all. Right, okay. Have you got anything Yeah go back to Alcuin bar Do do you still do this title an all? Erm I think so. What are we going to do? What's the Right. subtitle gonna be? Well there's three, there's three different ways of going about it I guess you could do. A whirlwind just come through the Oh god! When you left the door open the wind just blew Said it in it in. Right. Erm three ways to do an insect. We should return to that book Oh right. Sorry? Na don't worry. I did the one from the book list that was erm Giles and Howard. Aha No I didn't. I did Which one did I do Yes I did. You did. Giles. Well Erm he's talking erm language convergence like erm shifting your sides match. as people are like. Erm convergence erm they describe as Individuals shift their speech styles to become more alike that of those with whom they are interacting. And the adaptations they make are made on several different levels erm they might become more alike in their language, in their pronunciation, their rate of speech, their pause or utterance length and their vocal intensities .? Mm. Nothing. And erm also in what they're saying the intimacy of their self-dissuasions. What they actually say themselves I suppose. Erm and it's talking about this er accommodation theory Giles' accommodation theory which has one main assumption erm that all the things I've just mentioned about pronunciation and speech rates and things, erm they all occur in in order to encourage more interaction between the two speakers. Erm so in assuming that that in these sort of situations, the speaker and the listener erm quote Share a set of interpreted procedures which allow speakers intention to be encoded by the speaker and correctly interpreted by the listener . Erm then it talks about similarity attraction processes erm and there's theory Similarity attraction process theory proposes that quote,The more similar our attitudes and beliefs are with others the more likely it is we'll be attracted to them . Erm and speech convergence is one of the many methods of becoming more similar to another person, so that you erm get rid of your linguistic differences. Erm So was that the convergence theory ? That was Convergence was when you shift your speech style to become more like somebody else. And erm similarity attraction Oh theory sorry. is that more similar your attitudes and beliefs are to somebody, the more likely it is that you'll mutual attraction. And so we can show that by speech convergence. Erm convergence reflects a speakers desire for erm to get the listeners social approval. Erm because once you've got their approval that increase the attraction and the intelligibility of what you're saying and predictability but I don't know quite what they mean by that. Erm in general people desire approval more often than they don't, so the general tendency in conversations is for people to converge to each other in many situations. Erm Are you keeping up? Just about, yeah. Erm many factors effect what type and extent of convergence happens erm and these can include the range of the speakers repertoire, the probability that there will be future interactions with the same listener,erm the status relationship between the two participants and whether there's any recollections of previous shifts made by the listener in the same conversation. Erm and then it says that somebody called Natalie erm wrote in nineteen seventy five, that the greater somebody's need for approval, the greater their tendency will be to converge with a style. Erm and the way this is most often shown like the the th type of convergency they do is that they erm change their vocal intensity to match that of the other person and their pause length is made the same. Erm then it goes on about quite a bit of this Erm perception and decoding of the speech style er talking about er Martin and Giles. Subject presumes perceived er speaker as pr prestigious and authoritative and they perceived that there might be future interaction with him perceived his speech is more similar to their own than subjects who were told nothing about the speaker. Erm and the difference in appraisal between the groups of people that knew about the speaker before and those that didn't know anything, they say it is important to the similarity attraction . Erm social exchange processes this talks about the rewards and costs of convergence up against each other. Erm the similarity attraction model tends only to emph to emphasize the rewards of convergent . Erm I E an increase in attraction or approval the other person. But there are costs involved as well and these include the increased effort you have to make in conversation erm and loss of perceived integrity and personal group identity sacrificing yourself to match up to them. Erm Yeah, and they say that er before we actually erm do a speech convergence for want of a better phrase , erm that we kind of weigh up in our heads, quickly, the rewards and cost of you know alternative courses of action. And so from a choice of between X and Y we're going to choose the opt option that we think maximizes the chances of a positive outcome, I E approval. Erm so convergent speech acts should therefore incur more potential rewards for the speaker than costs. Erm the rewards they're talking about depend on which hat level your convergence occurs at. Erm and they give the example of erm a job interview Accent in a job interview. Where it's two males, male applicant and a male interviewer, and the prospective employee has a less prestigious accent than the interviewer, so it's quite likely that the prospective employee would shift his accent towards a more that of the employer, due to his relative need of approval so much more than vice versa. And the rewards then would be that erm from the interviewers point of view he be you know viewed as more intelligent, self-confident, industrious all this sort of thing, make him say determined, erm more understandable to the interviewer obviously, and also the there He's more likely to be well liked by the interviewer, and that's Because of that not only his voice but the content of what he's actually saying is gonna be more favourably looked upon. Erm then it talks about the opposite. Oh sorry that Before that er erm shows about how this erm convergence from dialectal to sort of pr prestigious or R P accent is known as a upward convergent. And then it talks about the opposite accent and it gives the example of There'll be an industrial dispute in a small family business erm and there is possibly a greater need by the employer to win the workers' approval. Erm within the limits of his repertoire he'll shift his accent down towards that that of the workers erm shows them cooperation and that's known as a downward convergence. Erm downward convergence are generally done to reduce embarrassment between people of different statuses. Erm so it makes a common basis of communication. Mutual c convergence can also occur with upwards convergent by person and that's completed by downward towards the other. That's generally if they both desire integration so it's not just done on the part of one person. Erm so they're saying that erm speech convergence is generally erm quite favourably perceived. That's about it really. Right okay. You haven't got anything else to add before we talk about ? Okay as I said before, I think there's sort of three ways of doing the essay. You can either think about doing one that is very literature based which I supposed might end up being sort of a rewrite of a lot of the stuff you can read. Or you can do a vaguely experimental sort of thing. Now there's two different things you can do, there's one which you were originally gonna do when it was a project. Mm. Which was to like actually do an experiment which might be a bit time consuming now and you might have to do Yeah. If you want to do it you haven't really got you probably haven't got the time . Haven't got the time. The other thing might be do just do a questionnaire asking people about their attitudes to accents and dialects and Yes mm. languages. And that's something which you haven't like got to do a lot of recording for You haven't got test conditions you've got to think of some questions and photocopy it. Mm. Mm. And then if you want to read some literature and talk about some of the things which Once you've said what questions you want to ask you'll want to read some stuff You've either read a lot of it already, the stuff you've done today is useful, and do a bit of your essay saying, This is what the literature says, so we did an experiment to test this aspect and here's the results we found, let's discuss this. Erm So based on match-guise that's what it's gonna be about. Well I mean you can't really you can't do much you can't do much about You can't really do that though The best thing would be to s sort of say I don't know but the sort of thing which came into my mind were questions like you know, Which accents do you think Yeah or I mean which accents do you think people sound more intelligent when they've got I mean, it's not that's heavily match- guised cos in match guised people are doing it without knowing what they're doing. In this Mm. we're asking people to make an informed choice Mm. and people have got to be aware of their prejudices But when they're answering. yeah everybody's got some sort of accent that grates on their nerves though haven't they? Yeah. That they can't stand and there's another one they think it's nice. Yeah I mean people don't always agree on those things Mm. but you actually find some trends Mm. across the board. Mm. Er which also really doesn't look as if actually asks you cross section. Yeah you've gotta almost ask say you keep getting an accent erm Oh I don't know say Brummie accent or something that people don't really think sounds very nice. Mhm. Then you've got to go and try and find somebody from Birmingham saying and erm Yeah I mean Mm if you can actually try and find one. I mean it's probably a good idea to make a If you do a questionnaire to make a note of what accent the people you're asking have got. Yeah. And that way when you analyze the results you can sort of say, Well we found that say Birmingham was very disliked erm but you can say that wasn't I mean if everybody in the whole sample had been I dunno a very then you can say, Oh so it doesn't really show very much. But if you have a reasonable cross section of the country and your result was still that Birmingham was looked down upon as a low status accent, then at least you can your results so.. Would you have to say why? Why you Well I think if you can come up with some suggestions you don't have to say why. Y you can say why you think it might be. Some of it's the erm Actually could we put something like that in the questionnaire, What don't you like about it. Yeah definitely. Erm Mm. but the thing is See if you can actually quantify it or if it's irrational. Yeah but I I mean sort of patronize them They might of Oh sorry but because they're not linguists Yeah. they might not know how to say it. Well They might might in some ways the way that people describe things The words they use . I mean they're not a linguist but the words they use will say a lot about what they think about . A lot about what they think. I mean if somebody says I used to People finding grating people might say, Oh I find it grating but it doesn't really mean anything does it? Mm. And s I mean that's a a sort of non-linguistic of the people use but you sort of I suppose you have to into something linguistic then? And you have to work out what they mean by that. Er I mean it could just be that they don't like it, so anything which they don't like is grating or Mm. Whatever. I mean does that sound like the decent thing to do? Yeah. Should we all do the same questions ? I I get together Yeah. on the same ? Yeah. I think you should all do the same questionnaire and the same survey but then if you can write it up separately. Yeah. Yeah. So d do you want us to do like tables, results, you know I don't or just write ? Er it's up to you I mean if your results I mean you're not going to have loads and loads of results. So No I mean doing a couple of tables probably won't be that hard work cos it just be a case of a list of averages or something . Yeah. Or a list of scores. But I mean it's up to you if results are very simple you can sort of say, Oh well sixty percent went this way and forty Mm. went the other way. I mean it's up to you to display the data in the way that you think's best. Okay. Erm is everyone okay with that? Yeah. Mm. Right the best thing to do should we do it now? The questions? think of some now. Because if you should think some now in the next five or ten minutes, and then if during the next week you meet in the week sometime Mm. to organize this. do we do we want And if you get to Sorry to interrupt. I was gonna say Sorry. do we want to erm go I mean obviously we want to go away and I'll do it with my friend and you'll do it your Mm. friend and you'll do it with your friend. Erm but do you want us to keep our own results or do you want us to pool all together I think you should pool together Say we could do ten each or something like that. Yeah that would only be Yeah thirty people's plenty really Yeah okay something. Right. Er I might say if keep a little check list of whether each person you ask is male or female or how old they are Mm. what accent they've got I mean th that's plenty to do. Yeah so yeah they've got to add some conditions on top of this things so it's like should we do an age range thing? Or is that gonna be too wide Well I think one person who is in their thirty or forties or two people so, you know you can't really quantify that very easily. Yeah. Mm. Er so you might be best just sticking to people who are the s around the same age you know eighteen to twenty two or something. Is it best to do sort of a say if a question, Which accent do you not like? Is it best to do a series of accents and get 'em to tick or get 'em to Yeah like multiple choice ones. Cos if you get em If you put a bo A multiple choice and if They're not actually think they just like look at one and, Oh I don't really like that all I don't really like think about it . Yeah they put an idea into their heads don't you? yeah. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. It it has this property of I you do put a list of accents it's a good idea to put other at the bottom in case there is Mm mm. one you haven't mentioned . Mm. Because There's there's so many though aren't there I mean there's that Scottish accents which I love but other ones are a bit kind of difficult to understand you know. Yeah I mean if you sort of put Scottish accent then you're probably going to But lots of Scottish people. what's what's a Scottish accent Well there just think of it as being very different don't they? Well yeah. I mean Course they yeah. Er so you might be better of leaving it open. Or leave it open for some questions if you want to test a ps specific thing in another question then try and test that. Mm. Erm. A thing that's really about accents that if you say to somebody, What accent don't you like? They might really dislike sort of a standard English accent sort of But they don't yeah standard sort of middle class thing but the pre thin they might not think of that because people sort of quite often think of that as not being an accent. Yeah. Which is quite difficult. Yeah well it's on all the radio and T V and stuff isn't it ? Yeah. And they don't think about it or Mm. or you could think it also true that I think wh what you think you're supposed to like as well. Yes I mean you're keep being told that's the way you're supposed to Sorry. If you did have a list it one of the list B B C English or Queen's English or something that makes people know what they w what you're trying to tell them . B B C accent yeah Er whereas if you ask somebody to name an accent they'd probably think of regional varieties, urban varieties, But they don't think it is one rural ones . do they? Well you could you could do you could putting a Say if you put I won't join in this Say you put, What accent do you not like? And put a line. And put in brackets E G you know how you like give an example for them to fill in and say E G B B C Yes English something like that Well what what you could do is put in brackets somewhere a list of accents you can think of so that if people really don't know what to do . Yeah so you've got a list It's not your list of choices it's not going to have to take box form. But they can just look through so they can say I can't think of an accent let's have a quick look through this list. Yeah. Yeah. Er and that way you can include you can even include sort of very upper class varieties which are sort of We we could ask them actually where you could put where are you from Yeah. and then say, Do you perceive yourself as having an accent? Yeah. As well and so that that get's over whether they you know that get's over this thing about erm views of other people j the way you Yeah. somebody else up you've got a massive accent, but then turns round and says, Well so have you. So there again perhaps try and find somebody who's from where they've said they're from and they might be ticking this box you know . Yeah. Another thing that might be worth doing as well I mean don't make it too complicated we ought to about which things to put in. if you want to say put the name of an accent down You wanted to put say Birmingham and then say, How would you rate people who have a strong accent from this place on a scale of one to five for friendless, honesty the things which you could Yeah Yeah Yeah scale of one to five for each one with one being er But yeah I mean it's not going to be quite so true because they're gonna think Well when you write it down you think Well actually it's got nothing to do with this be really clever. But and that takes away that initial reaction. Yeah. have to put something they're gonna have prejudices and Yeah that's right Er but we like say don't want to put everything in cos it would take you a while to analyze that but that's another thing you might want to put on. How many questions do you think? I don't know I mean I think if you had a double side of a sheet of A four that was well spaced out and stuff that would be er you wouldn't want to make them You wouldn't particularly have more than a dozen or so would you? No. No. But I mean more or less so You'll probably get a feel for when you've got things. yeah. I reckon your sort of timetable for doing this wants to be, early next week to meet to work out exactly what questions you are gonna do and mak make a questionnaire and perhaps later on in the week Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, start to ask some people Now on the Friday this time this we this time next week you c you can talk about some of your results in here and we'll discuss about anything that's gonna be problems we'll discuss how you're can write it up and how you want to display the statistics if Yeah. you've got some complicated ones. Er and then you can write it up sometime during week four and hand it in sort of Wednesday, Thursday week four would be quite good. Okay what Do we have to do a methodology project as well? I don't think you do . or do you? To be in when? By end of week four. Yeah. Three sides. Three sides. It's not bad it's Mm. just a We're gonna have to be doing that at the same time. Well I mean I a asked Christine yesterday and she was saying that because this isn't a project any more it's actually supposed to in the end of week three. But you know I think if I say to her hand it in week four then Mm. she won't mind so push past week four she might Yeah. we could do the first bits and about an hour really, this weekend not at work or anything. No cos we've we've got the first two bits, we've got the rational for the experiment and the method What do we have to do? We just have to write one side on the rational and one side on the method and the third side's on the results. But I mean we don't know h how long We haven't got eight So we can do the first two. No he's gonna give us the other results. Erm. We can do the first two and then two It's on that Were you there the other day when we got that sheet? Yeah is on there? Yeah it's all Okay. on there. Oh good okay. But why do we do the experiment then? Oh I dunno . Okay so we You're really gonna have to sort of do Meet on Monday Monday . So. So if next week c you can at least of started three hours a week to the questionnaire er but we definitely have done finish finished making the questionnaire I mean gonna have to Well yeah cos we want to get out and distribute it and get it back. Yeah. can do it on Monday and we can People will have until Friday then to ask . Yeah. Yeah. Yeah we'll do it on Monday. What have we got? Well I've got three hours from straight from nine fifteen in the morning so I'd like a bit of a break actually after that . No sorry. afternoon. Oh. I've got one free in the afternoon so I've got a three Yeah I have fifteen as well. I've got . Oh Only take an hour or so won't it anyway ? Yeah. Okay if you want any help or anything I should be around for Okay. next week so catch me if you want anything. Got anything together? We've got Principles of Linguistics . Principles at nine fifteen though I've got to one Oh yeah. Mm I've got English and then I've got the afternoon I can do at two fifteen if you like. Yeah I think I can do two fifteen. I think I might be able to is two fifteen okay? two fifteen She said two fifteen Let's do lunch. here. Right a a t Here? Okay two fifteen yeah. I'll probably forget you'll probably come and get me. Okay let's hold it there. Yeah Right, cheers. See you next week or before then. Yeah. effect using pi squared. I'm doing a handout now. I'm gonna do it for everybody, not just the joint management. Er it'll probably be about a fortnight before we get it back, okay? So I'm gonna send it down to shortly. Right, somebody asked a little while ago parametric and non-parametric stats. It was in the tutorial on Friday. Erm I won't look them out. Erm if you still don't understand it, come and see me at the end of the lecture, okay? You won't get anything on it here but if you haven't been told. Right, we're gonna look at correlation over the next couple of weeks. We're gonna look at the Pearson's cross product or product moment correlation and Spearman's rank order Before we do, I'll just put this on and make sure it's working okay. We've looked at pi squared and we've talked about the, the term I used was association. Now the reason I used the word association is that it's different from correlation which is what we're gonna talk about shortly. No what we said was that if you were interested to see if two variables are associated, this is for a pi squared you might look at sex differences, men and women, and smoking or non-smoking now if they were associated what we've said is that you might for example ex in fact women'll probably smoke more than men. Anybody know the figures?well, let's pretend they do. What you might find is that out of er fifty women, thirty smoke, twenty don't smoke. Out of men you might get twenty smoke, thirty not-smoking. Now if you did a pi squared on that it might come out significant, I don't know. But what you might find is that there's an association between smoking and non-smoking. So we've used the word association. What it means is that if you know that somebody's or if you know somebody's sex then you've got a better than chance bet at guessing whether they smoke or not. So what you're saying is that these are associated. Now correlation, in a similar way, measures something similar to association but it gives you a bit more detail. Erm, let me think, reaction time and intelligence are correlated. What this means is as your reaction time increases it's believed or been shown that your intelligence quotient or I Q measure decreases. Now what it means if if you know somebody's reaction time, you can have a guess of how good their intelligen or the value of I Q that they obtained. Er, for example incomes, as people get older they earn more so they're related. Now there's a difference between correlation and . If you get a correlation between two variables it may be because one causes the other, or directly influences it, or it may be that it's just cha it's just a chance fluctuation and the two have occurred together, or it may be a combination of the two. Now the correlation or the calculation of a correlation coefficient or carrying out the correlation statistical test doesn't tell you about the nature of the relationship, whether it's caused or whether it's erm by chance or whatever. Now, it's alright, I'm looking at people and they're smiling and it's throwing me. Erm that's right, exactly, erm. Now, to illustrate the difference between sort of causation, one of my favourites is if you take the number of new born babies in Holland and you take the number of storks, they're found to significantly correlate. That is, as the number of storks increases, so does the number of new born babies. Now some of you s might still believe in Santa Claus are about to be disillusioned. I don't think that people would posa is a actual direct link between the two to bring the baby. It turns out that there's a common variable in between them which is nest sites. Erm as erm more housing sites are built, young people move in or young couples, and they start families so you get an increase with the number of new buildings or new homes i the number of babies. What you also get is the storks have got nest sites in chimneys so you get the storks, so what you've got is nest sites for people and storks increase together, so there's an intervening variable. But sometimes you can't even identify an intervening variable, they just seem to have occurred together or arise in some way. Right, so correlation is is different from causation. Let's try and do a little graph. I'm gonna turn some lights down I think, unless you can read that. Now what we've got there is income increasing with age. That can you see that at the back? I can't hear you, yeah? yeah Fine. Now what you've got is income is increasing in that direction. Age is increasing in that direction. Now what we've got, if you take this little point here, that means that somebody has a sort of quite a young age and quite a low income. This person is about the same age but earns a bit more and so on and so forth, so your age increases. Each one of these represents an individual, in this case person, who we ask about their age and we ask about their income. Now, as you can see from the dots, the relationship isn't perfect in that everybody who's older than somebody else necessarily earns more but there's a sort of trend or a general pattern So there seems to be a relationship between the variables of age and income. Interestingly, in this country, if erm you're classified as manual worker, your peak income occurs in your forties. If you're not a manual worker, your peak income occurs in the fifties. So as you get older, your potential to earn increases Now in this case, because age is increasing and income is increasing, I E they're getting bigger together, it's said that there's a positive correlation In the case of reaction time and intelligence quotient, as reaction time gets bigger I E gets worse I Q increases, so in fact many people would say that their in I Q and R T are negatively correlated in the sense of as your I Q gets better, your reaction time gets worse. It depends how you measure things whether increasing positive is good or bad relatively speaking. I'll give you some graphs in a minute Now for those of you I w I what I want to get across to you is the concept of correlation, positive correlation, negative correlation. I'm speaking fast in the hope you might not write it down erm and how to interpret a correlation coefficient and what it means. Erm the sums behind it I'm not too bothered about but I'm gonna go through them because they're quite instructive and I dare say there's some poor souls here who'd actually quite enjoy me to do that so we're gonna go through some of the sums, not now but a bit later on. Right? Let's take the top one okay, that's what we've just had, where you've got A and B both increasing. If you'd worked out the correlation coefficient or some measure of correlation, you would expe you'd say that they're positively correlated . If you're uncertain about correlation coefficient it's always worth doing a scatter plot. That's what that's called. It's where you just draw the two axis for the two different things and then plot the people's scores on them scatter plot Now I'll put that there just to. The alternative is, where A and B are still, look at the axis, A and B are still getting bigger as they go along the axis but the relationship is different. As A increases,s as B increase, is that right? Have I got that right? What I'm trying to show is a negative relationship As A increases That's right, so as B increases, A reduces. Or you can say it the other way round That'll be a negative correlation Now the alternative would be when you plot them you get a circle almost, you get, there appears to be no systematic relationship between the two So what you'd be tempted to say is, no correlation Now I'm gonna try and move towards how we might measure, how might we actually measure, get a measure of correlation because what you'd be able to say is, well they're more correlated or less correlated. Now what we can do is do that mathematically which is the exciting bit for some of you. Erm for those who don't understand it, just write it down and come and see me if you really want to but I'm not gonna be testing you as to whether you understand it Right, just a little bit of recap You don't need to write this down but it's there in case you do. Erm for each case or subject, there are two scores. If they are correlated in some way, then we should see a pattern when we consider the sets of scores across several people. Sometimes you have the same person and you have lots of different scores for them and you see whether they're correlated but most o more often than not what we're talking about is a number of people and to see whether the pairs of scores in some way are related Now this is probably a bit more important. If there's a positive relationship okay I d I mean that was just recapping something I said before so if you got it you've probably got it down twice now Okay, if you knew that there was a positive relationship between two variables and we said that their score on one of the variables was high then we would expect, although not necessarily, because w it's not true in every case but it i there's a general trend, we would expect that their score on the other variable would also be high. So n I it's just re-interpreting what correlation co positive correlation is. Now a way of determine determining if if a score is relatively high compared to the rest of them, is to look at the Z score yeah? That's one way of doing it. You know that if the score's above the mean don't worry, I've got an overhead for this, that's if the score's above the mean then i you know relatively speaking to the mean it's high right? And the further th away from the mean, the higher, relatively speaking, it is. Now a Z score is a convenient way of encapsulating that and this is a way that we're gonna g work out the correlation coefficient okay? .Whoops I'll put that on the Somebody left a highlighter in my office on Friday, a yellow one? No? If you wanna pick it up God, you must have good eyesight. I can only just make it out and I wrote it No charge for the free eye sight test. D'you want me to read these out if you're at the back? Or are you c you happy? Happy? Oh God, it's appalling written, which one? It must be Okay, sorry, I'd forgotten I've I've lapsed into notation. Positive, negative, and the thing at the end is a Z, of sorts All scores above the mean, if you converted them to a Z score you would expect them to be positive. All scores below the mean, if you converted them to a Z score you would expect to be negative. If the two sets of scores are positively correlated, then we would expect positive Z scores to occur together and similarly negative Z scores should be paired. So if you were to convert the pairs of scores to their relative Z scores then what you would find is that the positive Z's, if one score is positive, then the other score should also be positive. In fact the more positive one is, the more positive you would expect the other to be. Okay. Can I move this off? Move it up to about there? Now what I've done here is just put that in a table saying that if score A has a negative Z score, then you would expect score B to have a negative score. Similarly, if score A has a positive Z score then we would expect variable B to have a variable Z score. Do I say that the same way twice? No? That's unusual. Now that's if they're positively correlated. If they're negatively correlated, then you would expect the Z score for one to be positive and the other to be negative, or negative and positive. You'd expect them to have opposite signs . If there was no correlation, well you'd expect them to be mixed up a bit so that negatives might occur with negatives or they might occur with positives vice-versa Now, I'm g try and give you a feel for how these numbers, how we work out the correlation coefficient in terms of Z scores. If you consider what I've just said about Z scores, let's assume that there is a positive correlation because if we have a Z score of one on A, let's assume we also get a Z score of one on B. These numbers in fact can't happen in practice. They wouldn't add up to the sorts of things that we've got. Why I'm showing, I mean this is just the same as the table you had before but this time what I'm showing you is the product of A ti A times B, the product of the two. Now because score A has plus one, B has plus one er then it's negative, negative, slight difference there on the negatives but both negatives and both pos both positive, what you'd say for those sets of scores are that there's probably a positive correlation between A and B and if we look at the total of each one of those multiplied together, it comes up with about plus eight. Now, what we'll do is do exactly the same but this time for a negatively correlated score, and you might expect the Z scores to be paired up like so . When you have a positive Z score for one, you'd expect a negative for the other. Negative positive negative positive positive negative. And if you multiply those together, you end up with a negative total. We ended up with plus eight for the positive cases where they're positively correlated, we ended up with minus nine for the negative cases . Now, if there was no correlation between the two, then the patterns of the Z's paired Z scores would be quite arb arbitrary in that there'd be no consistent pattern. So, for example, we've got a positive with a negative, then we have a positive with a positive, a negative with a negative and a negative with a positive. And you'd pi be tempted into saying that they were probably not correlated, either positively or negatively. And if you look at the sum of the two Z scores times'd each other, you end up with something close to zero. So you begin to get a bit of intuitive feel. If you g if you take the two Z scores, convert the paired scores into Z scores and multiply both of them, you get a big positive number if they're positively correlated at the end of the day. If they're negatively correlated you get a big negative number. If they're not correlated, you get something approaching zero . Is it cold in here? Well I never, first time. It is Okay, now what I'm trying to tell you is that th a measure of association or, as we're gonna call it, correlation They are but I'm just I mean y'know it's cos it's not really correlation yet so I'm sort of u that's why I've put quotes round association. Now, you can't see them both. I mean I I I'm confusing the notation but I've put little quotes round it. It's just that it's not quite a correlation yet. We haven't evolved the mathematics to where I'd call it correlation, yeah? Cos otherwise people'll tell me that this is how this is the correlation coefficient. I don't want you to do that so it's I've just association wi . I suppose you could put correlation with quotes round it if you prefer, yeah? Now don't forget the sigma means the just the grand total. Now I'm not gonna bother to put the N sort of equals one to N equals N or something on the top yeah? What it means is that we're just adding up all the products for all the paired scores, right? As we did in the example before Now there's a bit of erm recreational or diversional mathematics coming up which you don't have to understand but for those of you who are keen on it, it's there. What I'd like you to think about, if I can find a rubber, is we've said if you take the sum of Z X's times Z Y. They were A and B before, I think I might have confused that. Right, that's all the Z's multiplied by their corresponding Z's on the pairs and you add them all up. What's interesting to know is, what is the maximum value that that can attain? Alright? Now, I think it's M minus one, I'll just check, yeah. The answer will be N minus one where N is the number of paired scores, so the maximum value that that can obtain is N minus one. Now, there's a proof for that and I'll give it to you but but you're not expected to know it, but it's there for those of you who want it. Well, you're gonna have to take something on trust already. Erm the maximum score of that expression is obtained when Z X equals Z Y. So, the maximum time is when the two paired standard scores are a exactly the same, not just they're both positive or both negative, but they're exactly the same value as well. Now those of you into differential calculus, your time has come, cos you can prove that on Friday night. Maxima and minima, but I'm not gonna bothered with that one Now what I suggest you do is just jot this down. I'm not gonna bother to explain it too much. Erm if Z X equals Z Y is when that's the maximum, then Z X times Z Y is either could be put down as Z X times Z X or Z Y times Z Y cos they're both the same . If the two scores, or the two Z scores were identical, then it would be a straight line of points for X and Y. There'd be no little scattergrams, there would be no little dots about the line, the line would run perfectly through them. That would be when you get a maximum value of this product of the Z scores, Z X times Z Y . Now, the tricky bit comes back to remembering what Z actually equals, okay? Z X al a Z score is the deviation from the mean divided by the standard deviation. So, let's assume that we've gone down the line of saying that, for a maximum value, Z X times Z Y equals Z X squared. Right, let's assume that we've done that. We substitute those into the Z scores and lo and behold, at the bottom of the page, you end up with the maximum value of those of the product of X Y, sorry Z X and Z Y is N minus one . Now that's if they're positively correlated. I drew the diagram and they were positively correlated Now, you don't have to know that proof but if you ever wonder where it comes from or you wanna tell your grandchildren one day Mummy, what did you do in the stats classes? Wrote my other essays is an answer that I For those of you that believe that statistics and research matters is about hard sums, you can endorse that view okay . Okay, can I put the other one on? The max value em So the max value, if there's a positive correlation, if there's an ideal perfect correlation between X and Y, the maximum value of this standard score X times standard score Y, the maximum value that can take is N minus one, right? Restating it, so, the max value of that product is N minus one Now, if you wanna know what the maximum value and negat if the score's are negatively correlated rather than positive, you end up with exactly the same expression, N minus one, but lo and behold it's negative. That's an exercise for the students to do themselves if they want to, is to derive the negative version. Now that would be the minimum vale, but what we mean by that is the th maximum negative correlation cos if there was not correlation you'd expect it to be zero . Don't forget N, in this case, is the number of paired scores. It's typically the number of subjects but sometimes it's it's not subjects all the way through, so it's the number of paired scores. Now, there's a certain attractiveness to this number, there is,ther there is, because, as you shall see, right? Right, the correlation coefficient is given by da da R equals, now we've already met this, this is your old friend the product, and what we're gonna do is divide it by N minus one Now if you think, I'll wait til you've got that down let's see if I can find this bloody rubber . Now, if we've said that the correlation coefficient is the product that we've been working out and we've said the maximum positive value that this little expression here can obtain is N minus one, N minus one divided by N minus one is plus one. So the maximum value a coeffic correlation coefficient can obtain is plus one, and that would be when there's a total positive correlation Conversely, the minimum value it can obtain is when this expression on top is minus N minus one, so it goes down to minus one for a complete negative correlation and it's zero if there's no correlation and then there's the values in between That's just saying what I've said . If a correlation coefficient obtains a value of minus one, or plus one, it means that you only need to know one of the scores of the two and you can say exactly what the other one will be. It enables you to perfectly predict what the other score would be. It means if you know one score, you automatically know the other. Of course, in true life, real life, things like that don't happen. You quite often get correlation coefficients in the order of about point three, R equals point three, R equals minus point three. If you're really lucky, you get up to about point six. Now in social sciences you very rarely get a correlation coefficient going about point six or seven, very unusual. But, if it's positively associated, it means as one score increases, the tendency is for the other score to increase. If it's negatively correlated, it means as one score increases, the tendency is for the other one to decrease, and if it's virtually zero it means there's no relationship between the two. Now, that's the first sort of introduction to correlation. I've got s don't go yet, we've still got a bit to get through. Erm, what we're gonna do now is look at some number crunching and what I'll do is give you Pearson's erm formula for calculating the correlation coefficient. It's not very nice. It's in your text books. There's lots of different formulas for this by the way. You take whichever one's most appropriate . I suggest you use this version because it's one of the easier ones to calculate. They all end up the same way but you do it by different ways. For example, you could actually work out all the Z scores but this equation you don't have to, but you could if you wanted to. You could actually work it out the longhand way, the way that we've described it Yeah I think you'll find that that's meant to be X and X The B's are supposed to be Y's. I do apologise, I nicked it, the B's are meant to be Y's and the A's are meant to be X's. I thought I'd got rid of them all but I hadn't, right? W you've got two scores, X and Y, for every subject, yeah? X X Y, now the B's should in fact be Y's It's what comes of talking about it in A's and B's and then changing to X and Y's. I mixed it up when I wrote it down If you find something in the text books looks about right and similar to that, use the text book version, I might have written it down wrong. This is not an X, it's a times. That's actually a times, multiply, so what you do is that N times that bracket times N times that bracket and then the whole lot is square rooted I'll come on to that shortly Another way of thinking about erm the product moment correlation is that what it's doing, it's putting the line of best bet through the data. It's finding the best straight line through the scatter plot. Now it's another way of thinking about it. That way of thinking about it will become very useful for things like linear regression, which we may touch on, and erm for the notion of variants accounted for, which we certainly will touch on shortly Now, there's different sorts of correlations. There's, somebody's mentioned Spearman's Row, I'd already mentioned it before I think. Erm, this is known as Pearson's and there are certain assumptions regarding it. Have you written that down? Yeah? Okay Assumptions for Pearson's are It assumes that there's an n an approximate linear relationship between, in other words you could cos what it's trying to do is draw a straight line through it. If it goes all over, if the relationship is curvier linear then you have problems with Pearson's, so it's gotta look like there's a straight line relationship in the first place. Approximately that now I've it's very y'know woolly, most people don't bother but you should really do the scatter plot to see whether a relationship is linear as opposed to something like that which would be curvier linear . it's a repeated measures design. Now it doesn't have to necessarily be the same subject but in some way it's a repeated measures, that's where you. It assumes that the scores have been derived from random samples. It assumes that there's interval level data. It assumes that you've deri derived the samples from normal populations and it assumes there's a home between the two . So what you're doing is making assumptions about the population from which your samples were drawn, so therefore this is known as a parametric technique Nearly there Now, another interpretation of Pearson's R, or the correlation coefficient generally, is variants If you square the correlation coefficient it equally the proportion of variants in X accounted for by Y. Now that is actually a very good measure of how good a correlation is. If you get a correlation of about point seven, it means that you're only accounting for forty nine percent, less than half, of the variants in the other var the other sets of scores Think about it, if it's a positive, if you've got a correlation coefficient of one, what it means is that you account for a hundred perc or or sorry, if you're gonna make convert it to a percentage, you times it by a hundred, it's the proportion there. So, if it comes out as one, one squared is one so you've accounted for a hundred percent or all of the variants in the other variable which means that if you know X you automatically know Y, or if you know Y you automatically know X. When you're doing a correlation study, it's very hard to work out what's the dependent and what's the independent variable because by it's nature you don't know. Little aside. Very last overhead, and you've only got to look at half of it. We're gonna do Spearman's next week For those of you who want to, what you can do, you can take the correlation coefficient. I've called it R P to distinguish it from Spearman's which we're gonna do next week, but you can convert the value of R to a T score and if you've got a T score you can look it up in T tables to work out whether it's significant. Most tables, though, in fact already give you correlation coefficient. So what we're saying is that you can take the correlation coefficient, multiply it by N minus two divided by one minus R, square root it first, and you convert it to a T. R P is the correlation coefficient ca calculated by the way we've j that that's just a little squiggle has no meaning as far as I am aware. That's where I fell asleep probably . And next week Spearman's rank order I'll stay behind for about five minutes if anybody wants to ask any questions Don't forget, some of you've got a lab class n erm from five til six last Monday That's right, did you miss the start of this? No, I just came in when you were saying That's right yeah they'll be about all night Oh right, that's alright then Okay do you mind if I get the stuff for perception Er is it? Yeah I mean I'll bung them in to you at some point Yeah, that's alright yeah It's one of the non-urgent jobs unfortunately Are there any absent friends who're sort of gonna appear imminently? Oh, here's one Have you just had a lecture? Just had a lecture? Oh right, just had lunch? Breakfast? Is there erm here? Did you get a copy of the,, that's what, I don't know what's gonna happen with that because nobody's got back in touch with me at all Oh right but is I went to t I said to them, d'you wanna scrap it yeah? I said there's y'know it was a couple of minutes late and they said erm it had to be processed through the proper channels. Waste of my time for an hour, waste of whoever's gonna have to sit on the committee for even more, ridiculous. It's a w new way of the system I'm afraid. It was a waste. I just went over there and said it was okay,th I'd put in a letter and they still couldn't just take it off. They said it all had to be processed so it's gonna have to go bef but I mean I will get very angry if that gets taken any further cos it's ridiculous, isn't it? Is there a course work deadline today? Fine, just in case I'm running over a little bit. We don't want to cause any body some distress. Okay, H P only. It's alright, I'm just checking. Apparently last week there was a course work deadline, I didn't realise. Erm Schumann psychology first years erm, that you isn't it, H P one? You're the only ones who have to do the essay for perception. Combined honours don't. That's my understanding from the book. Is that correct? Okay well H P one's on your notice board you've got four titles of possible essays. You can pick any one of those four. You can pick more than one of those four but the second one won't be marked. Yeah? Anybody else gonna turn up? No? Right Can I borrow a sheet of paper off someone just t . Front row's packed today Well you turned it off there Okay we started off and we was talking about the fact that when we perceive things they start off in origin as energy signals in the environment and we detect those changes in the energy and somewhere in the process they get converted into our experiences of perception. We perceive the objects, or patterns, or whatever. In the handout pattern perception is synonymous with object recognition. Object recognition is a case of pattern recognition I suppose. Now, we talked about attention as being a process whereby we could explain how it is that, with all the information that we receive, or our senses receive, that we only process part of it, and we saw that within the information processing model. Now in, is it Matlin? Matlin? Maitlin? Maitlin erm you'll notice that it concentrates on spatial frequencies which is a particular interpretation of the type studies where you look at the responses of the brain to particular stimuli. Now, as I said in one of the quotes that we were talking about, a psychological explanation does not need to rest on physiological causes. In other words you can have what goes on in the brain at the hardware level does or at the level of nuance doesn't necessarily have to correlate with what goes on at a high level description. So, leaving aside the hardware involved, is feature analysis one of the processes involved in object perception? Now what we're doing is a sort of historical sidestep. We evaluated erm the neurological feature detection, the work of grandmother cells and we said that in fact that probably wasn't what was happening, we were looking at spatial frequencies instead. Now, when their findings came out that the cell there were cells that appeared to correspond to feature detectors in the real world, a number of theories immediately popped up which tried to take this into account. So a number of theories of perception erm came on to the market as a response to the work of people like in the fifties and towards the end of the fifties we started to get theories of perception which were based on feature detectors. Now there's loads of these different theories. There was a whole whole sort of I don't know, what's the word, clutch of them, that came into being. Er I'm gonna talk about a couple because it'll give you a bit of a flavour on perhaps some of the more popular works that you'll find in some of the text books. Now the first one was Selfridge's Pandemonium model. Pand it's actually pan dee mon ium which is quite interest I couldn't work out what it really meant, pan demon, across demons, well that doesn't make much sense but you'll see why it's called pandemonium, in the conventional sense, model. There were two key components to this, there were things that er were labelled feature demons and there were things which were labelled cognitive demons. Now the feature demons corresponded to feature detectors. So, for example, what you find is that they're a number of features are detected by the feature demons, such as straight lines, which are either vertical, horizontal, at an angle, angles that intersect at ninety degrees, half circles, small circles, so they it was hypothesised that there were a number of feature detectors that erm were detecting features early in the pr the perception process When these features were detected or, well when these features were detected, this information fed into cognitive demons which started to respond. So if y there would be the cognitive demon which was the letter A and what would happen is, it would start looking at the features that were coming into the system and it would say, are they the ones associated with A? And if some of them are, then the A cognitive demons start shouting that by analogy and that's why it's the pandemonium muddle because many letters share similar features so that there would be lots of different little cognitive demons jumping up and down saying, hey it's me, as more features become apparent, or more features are detected. The decision demon, which is this one over here, which is p is a cognitive demon, looks at the cogit the output from the cognitive demons, sees which one's shouting loudest and then decides that that's the letter. Now, as you can see, that maps quite well with the sort of hierarchical feature extraction. You start off with a stimulus, which is here, there are the various bits that feed into the feature detectors. The feature detectors fire, higher cognitive demons start selectively responding to the features that're fired. The more features that're fired, the more likely it is that you'll get an out or the higher the activity level of the cognitive demon and then the more likely that the decision demon will decide that that's the appropriate character. I think that was fifty nine, Selfridge's model, that was the year it was published. It was at the end of the fifties, fifty eight, fifty nine Now, I don't know whether you've done language yet. I'm n have you done anything on language? Erm you'll find that there's something known as the Logagun model, which was proposed by John Morton, which is analogous to this which is a feature detector for sound. It's when it's it's known as word recognition. It's for recognising words rather than features or objects, visual. This i was taken to account for visual in particular of word recog letter recognition through the visual system. Morton's model was concerned with how we recognise wor auditory words and that was an a sort of analogous process to this. If you have a look at it, it's quite sophisticated and you'll come across it certainly by the end of your second year. And that was the Logagun models For about ten years feature models were quite popular in perception. Erm I'll talk about one of the later models, which was Gibson's, E Gibson as opposed to J J, which again was concerned with letters and whether or not we construct letters by recognising features from them. Can I take this one off? Okay Although I'm referring to Gibson's work, I mean this was typical of the time, there were a number of other researchers who were using similar ideas and notations. Erm, the idea is that letters are uniquely sep specified by different combinations of features, but certain letters would share more features than others So the idea is that you might consider that the letter X is made up of two features line going that way, whoops, yeah, and a line going that way, which when they're viewed together make the letter X. The letter Y is made up of a line going that way and a line going that way. They are holistic features, that is one feature that is detected. Now we're not su we're not sug er Gibson didn't suggest that that was the feature that was specifically detected by erm perceptual cells. It's just that we can think that that is a feature that is detected by the perceptual system. It wasn't said that there were cells that actually corresponded to those features, not but nonetheless the output from the system could be thought of as a feature detection system. Now the ideas was that if you presented the letters X or Y very quickly that people would tend to confuse them. If you present the letters very rapidly, just so they could only just be detected, erm you'd find that sometimes X and Y would be confused, whereas X and P were very rarely confused. Now they used something called a tachistoscope, I'm not sure about the spelling of that, which you don't come across these days, it tends to be computers that're used. But a tachistoscope was a bit like an oscilloscope or a screen where you could flash a word up for a very shore period of time. There's a lot of work done on tachistoscopes in the sixties and the seventies. By and large they've been replaced by computers now. But you often hear the expression, tack iss stock ope, tachistoscope as presented by a tachistoscope, right, there you go. Some letters were found to be more often confused with other letters and these letters were deemed to share similar features E G, B and P were often confused whereas B and X weren't so you'd be flashing either a series sequence of letters up, some of which shared features, some of which didn't, or we thought shared features, and then we saw whether they were confused or not, and this was taken to support the idea that features were extracted from the input, or that's how we constructed the letters or characters that we were perceiving. Interestingly enough, when you come to language, we'll find that that's a far more complicated topic. Erm, how do we recognise letters and words and you'll come into a lot of other factors influence that. But one of the earlier findings which began to cause problems was that the sound of the letters, as well as the features, determined whether or not they were confused so B and D, for example, sound similar therefore they tended to be confused. You could also find some letters that were confused, they didn't share common features but they sounded the same and they tended to be confused as well There was a lot of enthusiasm from the work of the neuro-psychologist th with the discovery of cells which appeared to be sensitive to particular features. Erm, that over a period of about ten years, began to wane and by and large now I think feature analysis per se has been abandoned as a as a model for understanding human perception. Interestingly, it does feed into some of the later ideas that were associated with computational modelling, I E using computers to recognise objects on model processes, in particular perceptual ones. The rip there're a number of problems with feature analysis and you can read books on them. Erm, I'll try and summarise them A perce an understanding of perception, whereby we say that i features are hierarchically extracted, is unable to deal with ambiguous input. If the input information is slightly ambiguous then a feature analyser would be confused and unable to deal with it, a pure feature analysis. For example, if we take those words there, I I hope that most of you can work out that that says, the cat, right, some of you can be difficult and say that you can't but I should think that most of you can. But if you look at the H and the A's, they're in fact, feature-wise, identical but you're able to work out that one's er an H and one's an E based on the context. So any feature analyser would have to deal with context so therefore they started to look at the role of context and we're gonna look at contextual effects later on, probably next week or the week after. So the way that we process or extr it cannot just be we take a we take the information an and build up the letters by extracting the features from it because if you did that then the H and the A would come out the same both times but they don't. So there're other processes that're going on. Right, in a simple sentence, contextual influences are not easily accommol accommodated by feature analysis . When you look at certain letters, you can see that they've got exactly the same features involved in them. Take the B P and D. You often see that the P's, the D's du du and the B's share similar features. They've each got ideally a circle and a line so they have identical features but they're different letters so clearly, I mean it's quite obvious, it's not only the features present but also their relationship to the other features that're present that determines what type of letter is recognised So any model of perception would have to take that into account . Another thing, when you look at how people recognise characters, it's not a the features that they pay attention to, but the overall shape. Quite often when you're looking at people's handwriting, you can tell by the overall shape rather than the single features. So, a feature analyser would also have to take into account the overall shape of the letters so it's becoming a bit more complicated already in terms of the model that would have to account for it. Now, all of those criticisms come about on the work that's been done which has mostly been done on the recognition of characters and letters. Erm,wh most of these criticisms would become far more exaggerated or far more relevant if you considered what happens in the real world. What are the essential features in the real world? So these problems and similar ones to them are generally led to an abandonment I suppose, or a lack of interest in feat in a pure feature analysis view to how we build up and recognise objects . The next topic we're moving on to in a way w is is erm speaking in terms of time, precedes the work of the feature analysis, the feature analysists. Erm it dates back to the twenties, perhaps a bit earlier than that. We're gonna look at psychology and what they had to say about, or the school had to say about perception. They were far more interested in how the whole image, or the whole perception came about. Rather than being concerned with the minor details being elaborated into a more complex picture, they were just interested in how we come to group erm features together for want of a although they weren't thinking about them as features. Most of you have probably come across the saying, the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. Now to some extent what that's acknowledging in the role of perception is the fact that perception isn't a bottom-up driven process. Th it's not a case of everything's contained within the stimulus that's coming in and we elaborate it into whate the object. Er we bring ideas er concepts and knowledge, which are very important in interpreting information. So they were in a way acknowledging th that sort of work or approach. Now this psychology, there's absolutely loads of stuff on it so and the Maitlin book's got quite a good coverage of it, so I'll go over it quite quickly, alright? Generally it falls, although I've used as the sub-heading, I suppose the overall title of this area is perception organisation, the way that erm things become organised, how we perceive them as an organised whole. Okay, with objects are perceived as structured coherent wholes rather than as discreet component parts. So they were quite interested in that process Most people are probably aware that the school produced a load of laws that were associated with perception. Interestingly, they also influence memory. I don't know if you've covered the influence school on memory, have you? In your memory lectures? Is that a yes or a no? No. What lectures did you say? Oh. Well anyhow the had something to say about memory as well erm which is quite interesting. Most of the ideas, or the laws that were were derived which erm pertaining to to the school, derived from something called the law of, now would anybody care to pronounce that? Pregnence, pregnance? Anybody here do German? No? Does anybody here actually speak German? Okay, what does that mean? Pragnance, any idea? Progna I s to be quite h I've forgotten, it used to me it means something quite interesting and I've forgotten. So thirty five of several geometrically possible organisations that one will actually occur which possesses the best, simplest and most stable shape. So that's the guiding principle of the view of perception. Most of the other laws if, in a way, follow on from that one You'll notice that I've sort of spaced the writing out today so you haven't got to do so much. Same number of overheads to keep me happy, but you've gotta write less to keep you happy, there you go. Now the sorts of laws that they came up with were things like the law of proximity, the law of similarity, the law of common fate, good continuation and closure. Right now the I mean there's loads more as well if you wanna look them up. They're the more common ones, or the more popular ones . It's a very sad sight y'know to see all these empty seats. It's quite, I'm sure they were fuller at the start, alright? I mean is this a general tendency in most lectures, or just mine? I've noticed . You can be brutal Koffka K O F F K A Okay? Can I take this one down? A picture that you'll find to sort of try and ex give you an example of some of the l a the text books have got some great pictures on these particular sorts of examples of the laws in practice. we have here, well, what do we have here? That's an interesting question, eh? Okay, what we actually have are a selection of dots arguably, those little well sort of funny looking dots, elongated dots, there you go. Yeah, dots. We have those sort of things. But in fact the dots are seen as lines due to the laws of proximity and similarity. They were looking for the principles of organisation, how it is that we organise things like dots into a meaningful whole Why is it that we tend to see two lines crossing in the middle rather one two than two V's? Law of good continuity Then you tend to get things like closure where, instead of seeing four separated lines, you tend to see a square or a rectangle or whatever. The law of closure. The books are full of good examples. They've also got some lovely illusions erm figure and ground illusions wh ambiguous figures. Y'know, the old hag and the young lady as Victorian sort of principles . Now when you look at the stuff it looks qui it's plausible, it seems to describe what you see in practice. It seems to be a good account of it. But when you start to think about it in terms of erm sort of psychological explanation as you're becoming used to, then it becomes perhaps not such a good way of thinking about perception Matlin's got some very examples in it of this of those sorts of things By and large were concerned with people's experience, self-reported experience quite often, of the phenomena saying well tell me what you see when you look at it rather than being based on the sort of lovely stuff that we love, good solid empirical data, yeah? So being psychologists who can't get enough of it, empirical solid data, we tend to erm be a bit dismissive of the methods that were used by the Although these laws tend to describe what th what's happening, they don't actually tell you how they're achieved. W what mechanisms, what processes underlie these laws of perception? It doesn't really tell us very much about those at all. They weren't concerned with that, although they did come up with some electro um electro-static field, or electro magnatic magnetic fields in the brain or something. It wasn't really erm a very satisfactory explanation and it lost favour quite quickly There's lots more Matlin lists a load of problems. These are sort of a summary of them erm I may have missed one of the minor ones out. The laws, whilst they're pretty good at applying to things like erm visual illusions and two D and dots on pieces of card, they're not very good at really applying to solid objects. It becomes very difficult to apply the laws to solid objects. Surprisingly, considering a lot of the illusions that were provided, in fact rely on contextual information. What I'm gonna say may seem strange but they don't allow for certain contextual influences. Now y'know you can come up with a description of that as an ellipse but in exactly the same shape, in a slightly different context, yeah, you know it's actually circular and it's a hoop and your perception of the object is different. They don't really give erm much of an account for w how it is that erm similar objects which're grouped according to their laws erm can be perceived differently in different contexts. For those who came in late, the essay titles are up on the first year notice board. Essentially the four areas are computational modelling, what contribution a don't write these down because they're not the same as the ones on the board, but it's looking at the role of computational modelling in perception, although you could start off with a broader definition of it within cognitive psychology. Erm, we're looking at the modern approach to th or modern evalu evaluation of the approach. Looking at visual illusions and perceptual errors and I ca what was the oth oh and the role of attention in perception. They're the four areas. Some of which we haven't done yet, some of which we have, so it's up to you. You can either do what we've already done or you can base it on stuff that we'll do in the future. Either way it should be helpful Now, interestingly people, more recently, and by that the late seventies and the eighties, have attempted to actually operationalise and measure the principles and they've come up with some fairly ingen ingenious experimental designs to take tha to explore these avenues. Er I'm gonna give you one here, although there are several more which you'll find references to in text books, okay? Now this is a lovely quote I think. It really gets over . Percepts I think are sort of breaking things into their sort of components if you like. them on the floor and watch them shatter into natural pieces, di dum di dum di dum, in the absence of such a direct technique, more indirecti more indirect alternatives must b must suffice. They're saying is, it'd be nice if you could take something that's a holistic perception and fragment it into the component parts. But of course that's very difficult. the notion of getting hold of a sort of re a perceived object and dropping it on the floor and watching it split into it's component parts is quite appealing If you take a, if you imagine, you could take an object that you're perceiving, yes? And you could break it into its fundamental component parts, yeah? It's just what I said before. Yeah Now Pomerance, who's one of the people in the quote, has done a lot of work recently er by that in the last five six years, looking at how we can investigate the, or objectify, the measures that w or the laws that were used by the . I'll talk to you about one of his experiments to give you a sort of flavour of it, although other people and himself and others have done a lot of interesting work that's similar. Right. Let's have a look at this. What've we got? If you, in case A, if you imagine that you're presented with with a piece of paper or card and it has two symbols on it, right? It could have it like those, like those, like those, or like those So that would be one deck of cards that you'd be given and they'd have the four types of symbols on them, separately of course. Now, the alternative deck of cards in B would be those four. Your task is, regardless of the symbol that appears on the left, to sort the cards into the four shapes, right? So you ignore that symbol and you just decide which deck to pu pile to put them on based on those f the four first symbols. Now, in deck A it was argued, or proposed, that there is the symbols are similar, whereas in group B the symbols aren't similar. So, Pomerance argued it should be easier to process just the right hand signal if they're not grouped together, if they if the processing system doesn't tend to group them as a single entity. So the it should be qu easier to sort these than it is to sort those. Sorry, the other way round. It's quicker to sort those rather than those because what tends to happen is that you process them as an entity rather than as single figures. It's a very difficult task when you come to do it, if you want to have a little play at home. You can even entertain the kids. Okay, the task was to ignore the right hand bracket and to sort cards based on the left hand bracket In fact you'd sort them into two piles, not four. He did a load of different experiments, this is just an example of one of them. They're all very similar He, or they, manipulated the notion that similarity, they manipulated proximity by varying the distance between the two brackets, the two pair of brackets. So how far away did you have to put them before you no longer saw the interference? What Pomerance and others are attempting to do is to operationalise definitions for proximity, similarity, closure and those type of measures and then they're seeing whether or not they're using visual processing time or decision task or attention task to as v as ways of investigating the similarity or otherwise Take this one off or? Now, another notion, we talk about the idea of bottom up versus top down processing. Bottom up processing is where you start with the input information, whatever that might be and then you, based on that input information, you extract or inp or extract more meaning from the input until you end up with whatever it is that you recognise. So the process starts with the data and it's totally determined by the contents of the data, right? An it's a notion that you'll come across again and again in cognitive psychology. The alternative notion is the idea that you impose meaning on the input, in which case it's a top down process and it relies on contextual information and information that you already have i on previous knowledge. In perception, you tend to find models of perception that're based on top down or bottom processing. Now the feat hierarchical feature analysis that we've done so far was predominantly a bottom up data driven process. Whereas most of the models today that we think of we regard them as a mixture of the two but with a he and, depending on the type of or the piece of perception that we're working on, we have either one the other. We tend to have, but they never, they very very rarely occur in isolation. There's always a little bit of bottom down and there's always a bit of top up, regardless. So you th this distinction isn't a pure one. There there's no idea of a pure bottom up or pure top down process. By and large most cognitive processes are a mixture of the two and in fact it depends on the context that you're operating them in, we tend to be able to split from one to the other. Now, in perception, as we've we've mentioned that you've got bottom up and top down driven processing but what you've also got is something called global versus local processing. Now, this isn't a very good impression and I think you'd go to the doctors if you had something like this. The idea is, I'll present it you and you you can I won't try and astound you with it because it is hard to do that under these contexts. What we've got is a shape here and a series of shapes there. Now isolated they look fairly meaningless and it's very hard to work out what they are. That might be a letter or something. What you've actually got if, if you bung them together, well you've got a sort of face. If you had a face like that you'd be down for plastic surgery tomorrow wouldn't you? I mean, look at it. But er yeah rhinoceros man, mhm? Down? There you go. I think you c well you c that's it. There's only global versus local processing above that A and B only make sense when seen together. A provides a context for B but B serves to provide context for A. These are known as local features, and that's known as a global feature. Within perception you quite often get erm a local processing going on simult apparently simultaneously with a global processing and the two sort of mutually influence each other. So, that's distinct from top down or bottom up. There's another sort of notion of whether you process the global feature or whether you process the local features and you attempt to find out they it dep vary between processes and which one they use, but it's another way of distinguishing the sort of processing that goes on. I've only come across this with perception. You don't tend to get it in memory and problem solving, although you get the forest for the trees in problem solving so I suppose it's there in a way. Do you pay attention to local features to build up global or d the other way round? Well it seems that the two interact. It's hard to say it's one or the other. But it's another way of looking as processing. You could describe it as global or local . Next we're gonna look at the role of context or computational modelling. I'm not sure which one is better to present to you first. Ah computational modelling is easier for me to present to you but then the role of context might become more important so you can appreciate it, in which case I shall give you that first. I don't know, I'll have to think about it. Normally I do the computational modelling first then context but I might do it the other way round, right? So it's one or the other next week. I've run out of things to say Thanks a lot By scientific revolutions How're you spelling kuhn as well? K U H N? Yeah that's fine Erm, long report, can you do the short report ? Yeah Yeah? That was easy wasn't it? er on angiogenesis as an indicator of prognosis for invasive bladder cancer presented I believe by erm and representing er colleagues from Bristol, er Oxford and Sheffield. Thank you. Mr Chairman, ladies and gentlemen, good afternoon. The relationship between tumour and blood supply has been noted by surgeons and indeed some physicians for centuries. In his thesis on blood, inflammation and gunshot wounds, published in eighteen twenty eight, John Hunter stated that in disease in which there is an increase in the part, as in tumours, the increase in vessels is conspicuous Now, our understanding of this relationship has increased dramatically over the past few years and our knowledge of new vessel formation or angiogenesis has also increased. And it is has been shown that angiogenesis is in fact essential to tumour growth. Tumours er greater than two millimetres in size require their own blood supply. It is also essential for metastasis. Now John Hunter noted there was an association between the quantity of the vessels and the tumour and recently this has been er shown with micro-vessel quantification to be an important problems to indicator tumours. Now, we've used this technique in invasive bladder cancer, and we've quantified the micro-vascularity in a group of invasive cancers and looked at the prognosis and metastasis. We found no res relationship between angiogenesis and metastasis but the rest of this paper will er concentrate on its role in prognosis. Forty five patients we looked at, age ranged fifty to ninety one, had the mean age of seventy three. Now follow up ranged between one and fifty one months. All tumours were solid or had elements of er capillary and solid tumours and , routine sections were stained with a standard aminohistochemical technique, using anti C D thirty one anti-clotting. Now C D thirty one is an endophilial cell adhesion molecule and the antibody has been shown to be the most specific marker of vascoendophilia and consistently in studies has stained more vessels than other markers. We estimated the count er by looking at each individual section at low power and collecting the three most vascular areas. Then with a twenty five point chalky eyepiece graticule er the counts were made at high power. Now when you look down the microscope through the graticule what one sees is twenty five randomly spaced dots overlying your er section. If you rotate the graticule such that the maximum number of dots covers erm a stained and then you count those number of dots, that's the count. And we did that in the three areas, so we used the sum of three vascular counts in the analysis. Now we looked at both capillary tumours and solid tumours, but as this pictures demonstrates, we're not y er able accurately to determine the count of capillary tumours. This is the stain that you get, it's, it's black showing vessels. Now these are all vessels and these aren't the ones that we're interested in, we're interested in the small tumour induced vessels. Because we weren't able to define with any confidence areas of neovascularization in capillary tumours we've based the study on those tumours with solid er solid tumours or those with solid elements. This is what you see when you do er the staining, on the left is an area of low count. And I don't think, if you can just see small areas of vessel stains, this has a erm only a few vessels present within the solid tumour. But on the right an area of a high count where a great deal more of vessels are present. Of our forty five patients nine had T two tumours and thirty six had T three tumours. Thirty three had a solid morphology and twelve had a mixed morphology. Now we performed uni-variant analysis looking at all the parameters shown on the left. We confirmed, which was j with a bit of luck, that T two tumours do significantly better than T three tumours, P value of nought point nought nought two. We also showed that grade two do significantly better than grade three, but most importantly perhaps is that we showed that patients with a vascular count that are less than twenty one do significantly better than patients with a vascular count of greater or equal to twenty one. P value of nought point nought one. We showed no significant difference between solid or mixed tumours and significant difference between tumours which had diploid picture or haploid picture on a D N A analysis. We then placed all these parameters in a multi-variant analysis. The only two that remained significant were stage and vascular count. In other words, vascular count is a significant, independent prognostic er indicator in this group of invasive bladder cancers. Look at the survival curve of the vascular count, percentage of surviving up the Y axis and time in months on the on the X axis. These two curves are significantly different. The top curve, in yellow, is for counts less than twenty one, now the four year survival for this group is around forty three percent. With a median survival of thirty five months. Compared with those counts of greater or equal to twenty one, which is the white curve, greater or equal to twenty one, white curve, which is the lower curve. And this four year survival of only twenty three percent with a median survival of around nine months. Now to calculate the hazard ratio on these two groups, those patients with counts of greater or equal to twenty one were two and half times more likely to die of their disease than those with counts of less than twenty one. In a paper that was published in nineteen eighty five, Journal of Urology, Shipley looked at prognostic factors in invasive cancer. The overall er five year survival for all, all invasive cancers are around about er twenty percent er twenty eight percent. But within this group he looks specifically at solid tumours and they only have a four year survival of twenty percent. So using vascular counts we are able to define a group of patients that do significantly better. Therefore this simple technique of counting vessels as an assessment of angiogenesis does provide us with additional prognostic information and is good for patients. And in summary, Mr Chairman, ladies and gentlemen, we would suggest that the assessment of angiogenesis in bladder cancer is an important and promising er prognostic indicator and has therapeutic implications. Not only in being able to select a group where perhaps we can justify more aggressive therapy, or even a group that perhaps we should just treat palatally but also in the future with the development of anti- angiogenic therapy. Thank you very much. I'd like to start the question briefly with two points, firstly, you had forty nine patients? No. We had forty five. Forty five. Y you must have had many more than forty five Yeah. tumours over the last Yeah. year or so . Th we're limited to solid tumours or patients that have an element of solid tumour on histology. We did in fact have sixty eight patients, unfortunately erm thirteen of these insufficient biopsy material for us to do the count erm and Mm. erm we excluded all the superficial ones that had solid because it was insufficient er one patient we couldn't get the stain to work. Right. Just that multi-variant analysis on forty five leaves you with some very tiny subgroups. Yeah. I it does. We weren't erm we weren't able to do a multi-variant analysis with the grade because we didn't have a sufficient number of, of the grade to do it. But we er the, there were sufficient for all the other . Microphone five, please. a question . Mark from Liverpool. The way that erm one might have effective treatment for muscle invasive bladder cancer, if one uses radiotherapy, is maintain a decent oxygen supply to the tumour and if one uses chemotherapy to deliver the blood to the tumour. Have you got any information about the efficacy of the treatments that were used in those ? We haven't we haven't analyzed the results according to the treatment that the patients received. Erm we know that three patients had cystectomies and one er that then the remainder have radiotherapy but I haven't analyzed the results dividing them into curative or potent radiotherapy. And none had chemotherapy? Erm, I think one had, one had chemotherapy. There, we hadn't got enough in the group to, to make that erm analysis. Microphone five, again. Er , Glouston. I noticed your survival curves tend to er come together er in about four years, and you're not attending in that direction. Well, then all survival curves will eventually Well, of . come together won't they? Now did you, did you find that er were you ab were you able to repeat any of the biopsies and see whether in the er in the er group with the less vessels more, more vessels were er accumulating? Er ? We haven't looked at any of the repeat biopsies, no. We didn't look at them , we just chose death as an end point because it's the easiest end point to choose. So we looked at just the,th the histology of the patient and related it to the prognosis. We haven't looked . Microphone two, please. Er Joanna from Middlesbrough. I just want to ask you about the actual erm methodology, which sections did you examine? And you said you just chose the three most vascular, could you tell me a bit more Yeah. about that? The section we chose were the ones that were chosen by the pathologist because they were the best representative sample of that tumour. In what respect? In, in being able to stage or grade them. In what respect? I don't know, what do you mean by in wh I mean th there are pretty clear cut guidelines for doing morphometric analysis of erm tumour erm er tumour structure. You know, cells, erm vascular tissue, connective tissue matrix. Which particular technique did you use? Because you just seem to have chosen the things by looking, not by actually randomly sampling from the tumours. W we cut,th the path pathological er er the where the blocks come from, they're graded one, two, three, four. One is the best example from the tumour that came from the reception. So that was a na er that was a naked eye examination? Well we know that from the repo the initial report Mm. done by the pathologist. He'd designated that was the best block. We cut that section, we stained it and then looked at it under low power and selected out from that block the three most vascular areas. We could have chosen the three least vascular areas but then the counts wouldn't have been, would have been much more difficult.. Yeah, but why wouldn't they have been much more relevant? Because y you, obviously you've presented different information in your talk this afternoon, you've given us more information that was in your abstract, so the figures are different, where you, in your abstract you just talked about differences between G three, T three tumours. Well in the abstract we were loo we, I bought them and decided whether they are high or low counts, we now have a way of quantifying that, we have a way of counting each individual er vessel. So we're can no we can number them as such. Well, ha, there's no point counting things unless the counts are relevant to the condition you're looking at. If you can just look at the naked eye appearance and choose three areas that you think are most vascular from a one-off block. No. They're not it's not just choosing th they're stained It's not going, going to be representative. the areas are the most stained. They're the most strongly stained areas, they have the most vessels, therefore you choose to count them. Yeah and I think were not, we'll perhaps talk afterwards . Can I suggest you do so? Yeah. Microphone one please. Er in use of other you should have the difference in survival between the patients that had more than twenty one or less than twenty one but actually it er you didn't show us the survival curves for reaction against the survival curves er with the G er pathology grade and the G with the tumour and to see actually the difference which we can, in curves which we can deduct from counting the vascularity. No. We chose just to show this one curve of vascular count cos that's what we think is important. Cos if we have seen the, the same survival curves according to the er pathology so it'll have been er more that G three is worse than G two but er there is a difference in your curves between the grading quality and the vascularity. We know now that it's really needed to count the vessels because we will get definitely more information . Well the uni-variant analysis and the multi-variant analysis shows that i it is, adds additional information. I didn't show you the, the grade and the stage curves because we all know what they look like but what I'm saying is that by doing the count provides us with additional information on this group of patients. More than we can gain from looking at the grade and the stage. I think the real nitty gritty of this question is, given a T tumour can you pick out the good from the bad using this technique? And can you give us the figures to support that? Erm from a specifically, no, what I we can pick out the bad solid tumours and the good solid tumours. Yes but you accepted that T staging was still the strongest prognostic indicator Yes, it is. we will all continue using that. If we add to that your technique Right. will it benefit us and the patient? From this pilot study I cannot say yes or no, but what I can say is that this pilot study suggests that it will It may. It may. A and numbers in our, a s in a stage group too small to say definitely that we can pick out those T two tumours badly or well on the vascular count. But what we can say is that we can select out from the group of solid tumours the ones that do badly. Can we look forward to your poster next year with a couple of hundred T two patients? Mm. Have you another question? Yes, I was just wondering, er raise one point. The C D thirty one staining, is that just identifying blood vessels? Or is it possibly staining blood vessels that, that are under attack by vascular invasion? Erm I can't answer that. Erm because I, I know that er cell adhesion molecule C D thirty one is present in all erm vascular, vascular endophilia whether it's, it's erm er expressed in more erm vessels average Thank you very much indeed. Thank you. Oh, we've got one more quick question. Oh, two. Okay. Microphone one please. Come on. We've got just er two minutes. . If this is another exhibition of the intercapillary distance in er progno in defining the prognosis Drug abuse wrecks lives and families! So is it here to stay or could we, all of us, do without drugs? We all take drugs in some form or another, some are legal, you can buy them over the counter or your G P may prescribe, those are illegal, but still widely available and used at a price. What we're looking at in this half hour is why and how we use drugs and what we might change. And let's start with a question, do you take prescribed, or illegal drugs? Or have you ever taken? Button one for yes, and button two for no. And if there's anything surprising about that results, it's that nineteen people say they've never taken any kind of drug! Eighty one have said yes. What have you taken, or what do you take? Yes? Erm,inhaler for asthmatic attack, well to prevent asthmatic attacks. And have you been taking that for quite a while? Erm,sin , well I think, er about seven years. And you would go on taking it because it's a I don't need it very often, erm I'm not a bad asthmat , it's an allergy to animals Right. so it's a rare occasion have to use it, but I probably have to have one with me all, for the rest of my life. Okay. Up there. I take Thyroxin for an under-active thyroid gland. Mhm. And these are prescribed drugs then? Yes. You get that from your doctor? Yes? Maccresin for a, arthritis. For arthritis, right. Yes? I take Tamazapam to sleep. Erm, and I have no side effects to it, I've been on it for quite a long while. Every night? Every night. One every night. It induces four hours of sleep, and if you sleep after that it's a normal sleep. I waken up fine Yeah. no problems. And how long have you been doing that? Erm nine years. And why did you start? I had a bereavement, a very close bereavement in the Yeah. family and they put me onto valium, but having worked in psychiatric I knew the results of valium, so I I gradually broke them down and got off them but for six full months I couldn't sleep Mm. so they did put me onto some. But, I I kno , I do use them as they're prescribed, one Mm. per night. And they do help. So you've got a drug that you can live with? Yes. Yeah. Yes. Yes? Steroids. My mother takes these. Okay. Any others? Yes? I used illegal drugs erm Yep. for seven year. Yo yo you did do? I did, aye. Now, now you're the first person who's said you used ill ill illegal drugs, I yes? I've took illegal drugs and prescribed drugs. You did or you do? Or yo you I take prescribed drugs now. Yes. But, did you used to take illegal drugs? Yeah. Well let's, since we've got onto that why? Just to get a hit. Just to feel good, forget or whatever! And how old were you when you started doing that? Started at fourteen or so. Yeah. And how did,an how did you begin? I mean was it through your friends or family or You just take one, I just my pal had a bad or something and she was prescribed er a se , a certain kind of sleeping tablet,Tamazapam and just I started in to say amounts up to twenty five at the end of the, do you know what I mean? It's quite expensive isn't it? Ah but you need it. So, how did you change? Did you see Er I went er er sa C D P S Mhm. Do you wanna say what that is? Well it was er it's Community Drugs Project Yep. Scheme. And erm to get pro a nurse, like you get a along with the nurse. She's here er, and she put me in a hospital and then going off for something. And that was that? Mm. Well And you I'm still on some stuff. Yeah. But she got me so , over the worse part, yeah. Yeah. And what would you say to a fourteen year old girl who might be watching this who might think of doing the same thing? Just none of you ever tra da er, it ruins your life, ruins your family and everything! Don't try it once? No. Waste of time! Would you say the same thing? Aye, I would gi that. I would advise erm, any young person never to try it. It ruins and wrecks your own life and family's life as well! Well we've got onto illegal drugs, and of course le or, do you think illegal drugs are attractive almost because they are illegal? I mean,th there are other things that can give you a hit. There are, there are legal drugs in our society, and you may not think they should be legal, I don't know, there's there's er, alcohol, I suppose is the most commonly used one but It would start probably because they are illegal, erm but basically because everybody else running about me er, was trying it, my friends so it basically boiled down to peer pressure at the start. So what were you taking? Heroin. From the start? Mhm. And did it give you a high? At the start, aye. And then what happened? And then it just became a drug that I had to take for every day use. Erm, had to take it to feel normal. And how difficult is it to stop doing that? Oh it's very difficult. But now I've been drug-free for over a year erm but I'd been trying for a few year before that and had nay managed to succeed. But through the help er, the group that I'm well involved in, which is Carlton Athletic Recovery Group Mhm. I've managed to stay straight to day. And what was the point at which you thought I want to stop doing this? I want to get off drugs? Well the point that I wanted to get off drugs was, my family not wanting any more to do with me, erm, they'd shut the door on me. I've got two young sons as well, erm they two got took off me into foster care, and that was when I really had to decide it was the either the drugs or the children. So it was one day you made the decision and you stuck with it? No, not just one day, as I said, I'd been trying for a few Yeah. year but the end result came when the two children did get took into foster care erm, that's when I realized that it was a problem and I had to do something about it. What what what do you think of those two experiences? Yes? I admire them for being able to sit there in front of everybody and say they actually, what they've been through because it must have been sheer hell er, trying to come off and withdrawal symptoms, I mean, I don't know much about it cos I've never taken well I smoke and I take a drink, but hard drugs misused drugs it just must be shu he sheer hell! And if they're coming out stating that your families turned their back, they've had enough Mhm. who do you turn to? These, these seem to be extreme stories. Mhm? Er, I do believe that er, if the question was asked have people taken less, you know no not heroin Mm. but dabbled in it in a a younger age? And what the response was to it because, well I I did try it merely sort of to experience it, and I don't think that it was an addictive experience and Aha. I really don't think there was any ill effects at the time. What, what are we talking about here? Well erm just er dope re , you Dope. know, marijuana. Yeah. Yeah. Are they bo And having smoked the odd joint I don't really feel Mm. that it was it was that detrimental. Okay. Well le let No. well le , let's ask that tha that question then. Have you ever used illegal drugs? And I'm not going to pick on you so you can feel free to answer the question. Button one for yes, and button two for no. I mean, nobody has to speak who doesn't want to. Can I answer that question? Yes. Marijuana is nothing like taking heroin, smack, whatever, it's nothing like it! I think we should maybe ask the question why youngsters take drugs and, maybe we would get to the root of the problem. And what do you think the answer to that is? Erm, sometimes they'll say they're bored. Maybe Aha. we have to try and divert their attention. Probably the only way to try and prevent it is to go into the schools and get people that have been through the proble , the problem theirselves to go into the schools and try and educate the kids to stay off drugs. Because, you're getting it, I know in the east end of Glasgow where I come from Mm. you're getting them as young as eleven and twelve and, they're trying these drugs. You wonder how they're getting them. They're getting them because you've got old drug addicts going to the doctors getting prescribed drugs that is nay there. Th the one do they really want them? But Yeah. it does to get them money because they can sell that and then go and get the, the drug they re , they require theirself . So they can enter the secondary schools and they're selling it to these young kids that just don't know any better. Yeah. So I think if what we're doing just now, cos I'm part of Carlton Athletic as well, and what we're doing just now is trying to get into the secondary schools in the east end, and getting this message across to the kids not ee to buy these drugs. Yep. Over there. There actually is a drug-wise project Aha. that is run in the secondary schools in the first year where the children are talked to by the police and they see videos and they are a act They must have terrible programmes! they are act to they are, asked to respond to Aha. various situations and they Aha. do role play Mhm. and all sorts of things to try and discourage them from this. You don't think that's a good thing? I've , I've used well I've decided not to use the drug- wise project. I worked in the east end for a year with young people, I think it's very, very moralistic, I don't like the idea of the police coming in and and teaching What the the group work sessions. I to , I think it's a very What what what would you pu bad package! What would you prefer? I think what we should be looking at is pu , campaigning for de-criminalization of soft drugs, like cannabis Mm. because the use of recreational drugs like that is not necessarily problematic. And I also think that we should looking at harm reduction methods, in schools definitely not drug- wise. Yes. If you carry what Mm. you're saying to it's logical conclusion, then why don't we just erm, open up Hampden up sell the stuff there, you know people, you know, if children want it or adults I don't or anyone, why not have Well it there? why not? I mean tha I I I I don't think that's A lot of that isn't harmful. Is is that what you want for children? Well we sell alcoho Or young people? we sell alcohol quite freely. Well maybe you should just Quite socially acceptable. Wha what do you mean de But it criminalize? I mean, do you mean that you would mean that you would get it on Yep. or that it should be a think it should just be available in in shops? With, with certain regulations. Er Yep. with er, there would be a certain amount of state control. Er, behind you. Mhm. Erm we talk about cannabis being made Mhm. legal now, if some of the people here could see the damage that cannabis does, it's the first step towards hard drugs! And I don't know anybody that addicts, I deal with a lot of addicts, and a lot of families and it all started on cannabis so, you should nah talk about legalizing any drug! One thing that I think we have to be very careful about, if we did legalize cannabis there would be a proportion of adolescents who would get a great kick out of it, but there would those who don't get the kick because it's not illegal. There are people who feel that it's great to break the law, and a word of caution, that I feel is important, is that the same group of kids will react against drug programmes in the schools. I don't know that the school's is the right vehicle for this because in many ways, the children who are getting into these things pay more attention to the peer group, and it's more important to have community groups, community cafes, things which are not seen as authority getting at them. So why do Yeah? Up, up there. Up there. Yes? I think we really have to look at the Dutch experience and Yep. see that the fact that in Amsterdam theyde-criminalized cannabis and they do not have the same kind of problems. It means that the drug squad there can concentrate on harder drugs, and certainly I I pu , a recent interview with a a police inspector from Amsterdam said he would rather deal with, you know, he would rather have cannabis users than certainly alcohol, problems with alcohol. Mhm. Yes? Erm, I just think that over the generations er ma a er perhaps we're forgetting that in the seventies, for instance, er well, cannabis was a at that time a popular, a popular thing, but you also had ecstasy isn't either the main thing in the in the papers Mm. but er, even then if you, if you could go to your doctor, if you wanted slimming tablets, they gave you Dexadrin or Mhm. a derivative of it, which gave you the same high that ecstasy does and er, and if you didn't it from the doctor you could buy it on the street. So that's twenty two years go, and ecstasy, I think's only the same thing reoccurring. Mhm. It's like er a fashion and because it's on the black market, it's infinitely more attractive. The papers have taken it up, and as such, there's an awful lot of hype about it, and I think makes it more attractive. Yes? Well I just wonder you, there has got to be some kind of relationship between the fact that most people who take drugs live in really run down deprived areas. I mean, I think tha that you have to look at that. Because people have got nothing to do! Er, I mean lots of people have got nothing to do and are unlikely to be employed during that time. So you think, you think people who live in in well off areas, there's lots to do don't take drugs? No! You don't think that? Oh well, you know No, I don't think that, but I think that you have to I mean there has to some kind of relationship between I'm not saying it's anything to do with the personalities or anything like that but Yes. it's got something to do with the fact that people have got nothing to do in those areas, and no cha , no prospects, no chance of getting a job and it's actually quite a purposeful way of spending your time. I think that's really patronizing! You're saying that No, but I don't mean to be patronizing. if I help with addict that they need to compensate for for er, things missing in their lives, perhaps they just like it. Yes. Yeah! Well maybe. I mean there's nothing wrong with I mean people do just like. I think I think if you talk to drug users themselves, we've already heard about some of them talking about coming off drugs Mhm. if you talk to drug users who will tell you coming off drugs or withdrawal symptoms are not as hard as many people believe that they are. What they do find difficult is filling their day once they have actually come off drugs because they have built up a kind of lifestyle that has already been said Mm. around their use of drugs Mhm. and in areas where there isn't any chance of them Mhm. getting jobs, they find this really the most difficult part of staying off drugs. Mhm. I think there's, there's quite a difference, erm, in between physical dependency and psychological dependency Mhm. when you're talking about taking drugs and it's been shown that the effects erm the biological dependency isn't that great and it's no sort of worse than coming off erm, having a bad cold Mhm. whereas a psychological dependency is what's really you know, difficult and what makes it hard for people to come off drugs. And studies have shown that if people are injected, even with not a drug that sort of, satisfies their need for a while, and what does work is a change of environment for people and that does come down to people not, you know, being able to work, people being unemployed, and also peer group pressure like th , the woman said over there . Erm, if all your friends take drugs then you're more likely to erm, take them and it's harder Mm. to break that habit. Mhm. In front, yes? You. Like the woman said there, there seems to be a lot of help for people who are on drugs, and who then want to come off them, but the after-care service seems to be you know, a lot erm, there's not a lot help for the people, they get the help to come off the drugs and then they're put back into the society that they are from and they seem to still have that pressure to go back to where they were previously. Is tha is that, is that true? Are the support services inadequate? I mean there are a number of professionals here. Yes? Erm, I work in a project at the Southern General Hospital in Glasgow, and one of the things, there's young who experiment with drugs whether we like it or not, and I think it depends what drug i is available at that time, so we could sit here and go through the different periods of time. But I think, we've not been good attracting women into services, I think, the responsibility that a woman drug user has over child care and a whole range of other things that male drug users don't have. Erm, yes Mhm. then I think, we haven't, I think we're getting better at attracting women into services and and providing what they're looking for but we need to hear from them what they're looking for, erm er with, from those services. And certainly, if you look residential centres, which is one part of, of a treatment erm of what we have in Scotland or or nationally Mm. erm, isn't very good, for women with children in particular. Mhm. Isn't it also about the hypocris , hypocrisy of a society that's saying that one kind of a drug is okay, and another sort of a drug isn't okay? Erm, I mean one Which one is wi which ones are you thinking Oh. of? Well, alcohol's okay. Yes. I mean it's okay to come to this studio and, in Edinburgh and walk up a busy street and see people going into pubs and being drunk! But it's not okay to walk up the same street and see somebody using something else, obviously. And, surely it's about erm helping , I don't know how you go about it but the illegality of it prevents people admitting it and asking for help, and taking erm any advice that people can give about using it safely. Yeah. And it's about safe drug use, you know what I Mm mm. mean? Mm. Well , safe drug use is quite a challenging concept. I mean I may maybe decriminalization is part of that but I, as someone said why sho , why shouldn't people take er, drugs if they want to, they're allowed to take other drugs? What do you think about that? I mean i i Well that's what I'm saying, you know drugs erm, well you're looking at society where we're given drugs to make us feel better. Mm. I mean there's a lady down there talking about taking Tamazapam to help her sleep and has no problems with that, fair enough! But there was another lady there talking about taking Tamazapam as a drug of abuse and tha , that's the difficulty. I wonder how many of you have experience of taking tranquillizers? Do you? Button one for yes, and button two for no. And I'm sure that medical people here will correct me if I'm misusing Mm mm. the term tranquillizers. Well thirty nine people say yes, sixty one no. Of those, of those thirty nine has a, has it been a good experience or not? Yes? No! I had a very No? bad experience with tranquillizers! My father died erm sixteen years ago and I was put on to tranquillizers, up until that point I had never needed a drug in my life, and I was put onto tranquillizers and I had a terrible experience! Did you ask to be put onto tranquillizers? No. Th we th , I think at that time it was just the done thing, you hand out tranquillizers, erm but I found it a, a really bad experience Yeah. and ended up having to take anti-depressants to reduce the effects of the tranquillizers. So you actually became dependant on the tranquillizers did you or or or you simply had Mm. such bad experience on them? Ah, yes I, and I've never Yeah. taken one since. And I refuse under any circumstances to take them! I'm just going to comment on the lady over there. I never went to the extremes with heroin, but I was addicted to valium for seven years erm and I've been clean from valium for four months erm through a drug programme in Brenda House Right. Erm I went to the doctor at seventeen, just about to be married and he put me on Librium to calm me down. My parents were absolutely shocked when I went home from the doctor, seventeen year old and living on drugs, so so to speak, just because I was a bit excited about getting married ! You know it was And di , did you take the Librium? I was entitled to! See, extraordinary! Yes? I take Attavan on on a nightly basis Yep. simply to shut off my brain to enable me to sleep, much the same as the Mm. lady over there I've no bad experience with it, I am not muddled-headed during the day Mhm. erm, it just allows me to switch off. Mhm. I didn't know specifically asking for a sleeping tablet. And during the time where Attavan was getting a very bad press, I went back to the doctor and said, would it be advisable for me to change? Mm. I still want something to turn me off at night, er and is Attavan that bad? If so, can you give me an alternative? And he said, in the with the, the drug,th , with the amount that I was taking,the , there was no need to co , er concern myself with it. Don't you think that a lot of doctors are too willing to hand out these tranquillizers? They see these weak Yeah. women coming into their surgeries, highly strung and th the answer to their problems is, give them a tranquillizer and be done with them! Ye , I feel actually women go, or people in general, go to the doctors expecting a tablet, a prescription, and are very disappointed if they don't get one. Erm, but I personally think there's a lot of other things that the doctors could be offering, er, pointing us in the direction of er relaxation techniques and, all sorts of things. Erm, I think they're quite good at saying stop smoking, or stop taking it but we don't offer anything in it's place. Mm. And I think that drug taking has always been here, it will probably always be here, but in most people's life it's a transient thing, it's a phase perhaps erm as animals we like to change our mental state? I don't know, there's ha pu , I think there's a lot of reasons why. Mhm. Rec , erm the lady behind was stating that recent a , I mean recently I had about, er went through a bereavement, lost Yep. my brother who I was very close to went to the doctor and, instantly he,pres , er prescribed Tamazapam tablets for me, knowing that I myself am a single parent so I have a responsibility. Mm. I've my daughter to look after. Didn't ask me anything! Just looked at me saw how I was, prescribed the Tamazapam tablets, and I had a terrible experience with those and that's only in the last year! And so, how's that affe , I mean, what do you think about that? Because at the end of the day are we not responsible for ourselves? I mean you don't have to take drugs! But you're taking a, a, a G P's word for it, that these tablets that he's given you are gonna help you through the emotional pain Mm. that you are going through. They done nothing for me at all! Mhm. I had a phobia about going to the dentist, and the doctor wanted to give me tranquillizers but I didn't want to take them, so I actually went for hypnotherapy which helped. Yeah. In the past we had a lot more family structure and friends, a good neighbourhood network, but if you had problems er, you could go, you could talk about it Yeah. you could get it out of your system. But now women are meant to go along on an even keel and when something upsets them they think tha e , I shouldn't be able to express this any more, so I'll go to the G P and he'll give me something and then the emotions will go away, but unfortunately they don't go away, they just go wandering, they'll come back again at another point. I think there's something that we haven't discussed, and that's that, doctors don't seem to prescribe tranquillizers to men, it's women, and they do wrongly prescribe them to women. Is that true? No. No. In my experience it is. Maybe men talk about it even less than women do. I mean do do yo , do you think women take more drugs than men do, whether recreationally or or or fo for their health or now th , is th is there a particular problem that women have with drugs whether it's illegal drugs or tranquillizers? Yes? Do men, not perhaps drink alcohol more than women? Aha. And women use the tranquillizers as the alternative? I don't know! Well I , no one 's saying much about alcohol! Yes? In a study which I did, er erm I find that Aha. erm women were being prescribed tranquillizers about three times as often as men and in fact, women go to see the G P three times as often as men. Mhm. So, I think the two things go together that way. Well let me ask you this question, would you say that using drugs has improved your life? Eighty one people here say they've taken drugs, and probably more than that, has using drugs, any kind of drug improved your life? Button one for yes, and button two for no. And who knows what they're talking about, those fifty two people who said yes. What about the contraceptive pill, that brings a lot of joy? Di we In ,in , indirectly there! A final question, do think society could do without drugs? Do you think, do you think we could ever do without drugs? Button one for yes, and button two for no. And I think you're probably quite right you eighty three! Seventeen people have said yes, we could do, where are you you idealists? What are all the asthma sufferers, and arthritis sufferers, and various people going to do? Yes? I don't think we could be completely drug-free, I mean obviously medical conditions dictate that you have to take medi , medicines Mm. but, when it comes to taking other drugs, for a thrill, yes you could do without them, and one of the ways you can do that is by taking time out for yourself, whether you're a single parent or if you're a you know, if you're a family, the important thing is finding time for yourself and not for your family or your dependants. I think that deserves a whole programme. How do women find time for themselves? We'll talk about it another day. Thank you all very much indeed! Thank you for watching. See you next time. Goodbye. Not long ago some highly placed career men resigned their jobs because, they said, they wanted to spend more time with their families. But did you believe them? We've all heard of women giving up work for their children, but men? After all, the government itself has felt it necessary to set up an agency simply to find fathers who want to spend no time at all with their families. But perhaps that's the minority. Perhaps, in these days of the new man we are indeed witnessing a household revolution in the vital area of parenting. There again, perhaps the virgin births and artificial insemination are the start of something very different. Let's find out what one hundred Scottish women think of parents today. Did there's do a good job? Are they doing any better? What exactly is a good parent? And how many does a child really need? Let's start with a question, since you are all children of parents, do you think your parents did a good job? Button one for yes, button two for no. Did your parents do a good job? And, in this particular hundred, eighty five say yes fifteen say no. Who said no? Would you like to say why? Mhm. Well I think my mother did a good job but my father was an alcoholic and that's, that made a difference, not just to him but to the entire family and I think probably to my own children. And even though he's dead I think it still has a a relevance to how I treat my children. So that you would agree, you learnt parenting from your father? No I didn't, luckily, erm my mother's family, probably the men in that family I had the influence o of of those men and I think that helped a lot. But if they hadn't been there, if they had been different kinds of men erm, I don't think I would have been able to to pick someone to be my husband or my partner who could be a decent father to my kids. Who else said no? Mhm. Well I think my parents did the best they could but the pressures that were on them they, they didn't do a very good job! What kind of pressures? I'm not well social pressures, emotional pressures. Mhm. I'm going into detail! Ha ! Who else? Anyone else? Yeah? Erm ma I think my father, who's also dead, erm took absolutely no interest in us as children whatsoever! And he didn't take much interest in my mother either and that put enough emotional pressure on her to maybe no , not be such a good mother as she might otherwise have been. Let me ask you another question. Eighty five of you said yes your parents did a good a job, now, I don't know who your parents were or what you mean by your parents or indeed how many you have, so let's ask, simply an informational question, were you brought up by a mother and a father? Button one for yes, and button two for no. Because of course, now, there are many more single parent families than there were then? And in this hundred, and I think most people here are at least over sixteen, ninety one of the women here were brought up by a mother and a father and only er, nine by one parent. Things have changed have they not? I think the best possible way to bring up children is where there's a father and mother provided the marriage is stable and balanced, cos the children have a role model from the father and the mother. They can see parents falling out and learning to compromise and become friends again and that helps them, in turn, to create a good marriage. Mhm. I don't necessarily has to be a mother and father I think, so long as they are good role models that they have. I think that's the most important thing. I think it's important that children have both their parents, but I think we also need to remember they don't necessarily need to live together in that family. I work in erm family conciliation and lots of parents actually manage to stay parents and to be good parents to their children, but they don't actually live together as parents. Mhm. Yes. I think in any marriage or in any family the father and the mother both play different parts, and in my own life I can remember things my mother did and things my father did and together it made for a happy home. Yeah, it's interesting that we talk about single parent families but the two or three people at the beginning talked about erm, the one parent, the father was in actual fact, I know he was actually resident there was probably his his erm interest was non-existent. Mm. Mhm. So we we we tend to have a different sort of, probably if you'd, if you ask that question differently you would get a different percentage. Mhm. It's not always possible to have a mother and a father. Er, mine died when I was nine and my mother has been my mother and a father to both myself my brother and sister and I feel she's done just as good a job as I could of as my father could have done. Mhm. Speaking as a single parent who was left with children of twelve and eight, it is very hard and I often think it would be a good thing if social workers were better able to explain to young girls who are left with babies, just what it's going to be like. I was lucky cos my children were a little older, but to be left on your own with babies is not easy. Mhm. Er, my my natural mother er, actually had me adopted when I was a baby and erm so I was actually adopted by a minister and his wife and I think, erm, I would have been brought up completely differently if she, she'd just bought me up on her own, you know, so I think erm oh that's it really. Mm! My mum was on her own! I had a mum as a single parent and two grandparents and they did an excellent job of bringing me up! I couldn't have asked for a better family! The majority of absent parents er presently are fathers, so I'm going to ask you given the current er, emphasis on er in, well in in in the media perhaps, rather tha , more than in real life on women going it alone, whether by necessity or indeed by choice. Erm, why do you think er, fathers are actually necessary? Let's put it as simply as that. Are fathers, obviously they're necessary at the well of course,they're not necessary at the point of conception any more but generally would you think fathers are necessary? Button one for yes, and button two for no. And, vote now. Well now, are you surprised to learn that sixty of yes, but forty of you said no! Who said no? Mhm. Erm, I don't think either a father or a mother intrinsically has to be necessary, I think what's important is that children should have access to a variety of loving adults, one or two, or maybe three of those who they should have a special relationship with, doesn't matter whether they're male or female, so long as the, the children are loved and they feel secure and happy, it doesn't matter about, you know, this is mother, this is father. It's also very important from the adults' point of view that erm it doesn't matter if you are a so called single parent, which, I by the way, am, or whether you are within erm a couple but actually in in fact you're, you're a single parent because you're getting no support. The point is, that you need yourself to be surrounded by other supportive adults for your own erm sanity and well being and that's why I think erm you need an, a whole extended situation and you need to to change the way people feel about, about children so that, children have more access to adults in general , and adults have more access to children in general . Mhm. I, I am a single parent and I was over forty when I had my one and only son now the father walked out but I never deprived my son of knowing who is father was or what he was. And I find that my father, who was old too, at the time substituted for the father and I have an excellent relationship with my son! And he knows exactly what his father, and he wants to see him he can go. Mhm. I've been family member for twelve years and must have seen a thousand children, and of those, barely fifty had both their natural mother and father! Now, I'm not a sociologist but I would say i it meant that children without both were more prone to trouble, or more prone to erm lack of parental control or lack of love, care there has, I mean somebody can draw a a conclusion from that, but barely fifty! Pat? I have to say, in comment to that, I don't the know the the balance of statistics but I've been a lone parent for, for ten years now, although I've I've pressed button, it was because for ten years of being able to have a stable relationship with my children, I've got two very stable teenagers and during that, the course of that ten years I've been disabled person as well, so yes there may be the case that there's there's trouble with the children of lone parent families, but I think there's far too much emphasis on that nowadays! Well I am a sociologist and I don't think there is any evidence to suggest that children from lone parent families are more prone to delinquency or trouble. I think if you compared people who are struggling with very little resources with very low incomes, and with er living in areas of kind of multiple deprivation, erm, then you would, you would find that maybe people in those circumstances have higher rates of of trouble and sometimes it's er it's also those areas that are more heavily policed that children are more likely to be picked up in, and picked on. Erm, so there's all kinds of reasons why children from such situations would be more likely to be in trouble but I don't think there's evidence to say that it's because of from lone parents. Now, we've had evidence and descriptions of actually quite a wide variety and different kinds of family groups er, single parents, adoptive parents, erm ma ma ,th the traditional idea, two parents. Do you think at the moment society in Britain, in Scotland takes proper account of that variety of options, or do you think undue stress is put on one er one or other? I mean, I suppose actually the conventional two parent family with er whatever th the current er er average proportion of children is. Yes? Erm, I'm from Scottish Council for Single Parents, and no I don't think it does! I mean I think the er se , emphasis on society is still o , very much on the nuclear family and there is a a great lack of recognition of the extent to which families have changed and I think there's still er, hoping that erm mothers and children are going to continue to be supported by the parent and that's evidenced with the governments er, child support bill, that it's erm introducing at the moment. I think that is a big difficulty that, the diversity of family types simply hasn't been recognised and, anything that's seen as a benefit for one parent families is a political no no! I mean, if you look in the budget this year, one parent benefit was frozen, the additional personal allowance that's paid for one parents for taxation was also frozen, and the government does not like paying any benefits to one parent families because horror of horrors! I mean, people might desert their partner for five pound sixty a week! I mean. Well the suggestion is that people who aren't er maintaining a traditional family unit are actually being, like being penalised by public policy, is is is that a general opinion? I wouldn't say that was the case in Strathclyde. Our admissions policy and er, er pre- establishments throughout the education department certainly takes account of erm single parents' situations, particularly the stress that's involved in bringing up parents in that respect because it's it's the stress that's involved rather than Mm. the single parenthood itself, I would say, that makes the difference. Mm. Yes? I think that it's not just the policy, I think it's the whole of society's attitudes, because children learn what they are by how people see them, and if they're in a society that says you're in an unusual situation, if you're not with two parents then somehow your situation isn't right and we condemn it! Then they condemn themselves as well and until society can say that's perfectly alright, that's a good situation to be in, whoever it is you're living with, and that you as a child are okay and are valued then the children themselves will be okay and I think the Sco , we lose some of the erm secondary deprivation and emotional deprivation that children in single parent families Now how get into. how do you change attitudes? Assuming you should change attitudes, I mean I mean would you agree with Angela that we should change attitudes? Because wha we're talking about a very age old attitude which is that a mother and a father and their children ar , is the correct unit, should stay together, at least until the children are grown up and probably well beyond? Alright. I mean, is that an attitude that that that should be changed? And if so, how do you do it? Yes? Er, I think that actually, the the parents, the mother and father they just don't work hard enough at making a marriage work! They decide that one's hurting the other and the other hurts back so instead of maybe looking at one another, they just don't work hard! So if they can find a way at working with one another and realizing that this is their life! And it's the children's lives that they've got at hand. I don't think everybody agrees with that And maybe from the, from the hisses that I heard! I erm unfortunately, er, agree with the previous speaker that a very strong calvinistic streak runs through me and I believe in the two parent family and also in the efforts that you should make to keep the family ge together, but I think too, there's sp , er, perceptions of individuals and particularly, younger generations now in society, are so much different from my own perceptions when I initially became married and started my own family but what society has to look at the perceptions and expectations of the individuals in society. Erm well I tried for years to live with my second husband and it just was impossible! Mm. Not for just my own children but for my own health. I'm now in a stable relationship with my fiancé and it's fantastic! What a difference! But there's still this stigma because we're not married and I don't wha , I don't really know how to explain it but I feel that at times my daughter is being victimized to a certain degree because we're not married. And it's just a second Is that ? Does that suggest just doesn't seem right! We're happy That's your first and that's all that should matter. Mm. Could policy help to change to attitude and indeed, should it? Le let me ask you about erm this,th the new child support, Sue mentioned the child support agency which er, is going to be established with roughly, er, the task of chasing errant fathers who are not providing for their families, is is is that correct? Is that a good idea? I mean, in fact, may I, I think I'll, just, let me put that to the vote. Should fathers be forced to pay child support? Button one for yes, and button two for no. And the view of this particular hundred is sixty, forty yes, say sixty no, say forty. Who said no? And is it the same forty who said fathers aren't necessary, out of interest? Yes? Well I bought up three children Mhm. on my own, brought them from Canada and I brought them up without any help from my ex-husband and I wouldn't of wanted it any other way. Why? Well I feel that, that way he didn't have to have access to the kids, and the kids were happier without him. Who else said no? Yes? Yeah, I think some people don't want er, the fathers having any sort of rights over them, they don't want the access er, to the children, so in a way, they prefer to go it alone. Erm So do you think that's retrogressive legislation rather than helpful legislation? That it's actually trying to enforce a pattern of family life that perhaps a lot of people don't want? Erm well it's sort of hel , it's it's really up to the mother really, you know or the single parent. I think it's it's kind of erm Does anyone approve of the proposed er,a agency? No! Yes? I don't see why I should support single parents! Erm, if a couple decide to have children, they have children for life, it's until they erm, get married and I really think we're given too much of this me, me and my fulfilment of what you can be, and you forget that there's two people there, or three people who are dependent on you. Not dependent on the state, not dependent on your neighbours, dependent on you! Well these days a lot of women decide to have children er,o outside er erm, certainly outside marriage and indeed outside a couple, and that is possible, do you not approve of that? Not if I'm paying for it! If they, if they, if they have enough money to do it themselves, good o , good on them! Would anyone stick for the idea of women having the er the being,we ,th th the idea of women having the choice to have a child on their own being a good thing? Yes? Yes, I mean, you can't erm, legislate within a relationship if the relationship is created that works well, erm, between a, an adult and a child, that's fantastic! And if, somebody knows that they really, really want a child and they want it themselves and they don't necessarily want a third person, then that it absolutely fantastic! Let them go ahead with it. As for, chasing up errant fathers, that's a complete and utter nonsense! I mean, erm you yo , the amount of oppression and completely ridiculous situations that that is going to cause, it is not going to solve any problems at all! All it is, is the government and state washing it's hands of it's responsibility of, and of society as a whole is responsibility, is responsible for the children of society. Elizabeth. But surely, by the the women who can't afford to look after their own children, they should be allowed, at least, to have access to their husband so that they can ask for money. I feel very strongly that there are a lot of people who don't have the money and have no way of getting in touch with their husband, no way of forcing them to pay up. Ann? Yes. Erm well, ha! I mean, I think really that erm children benefit from stable relationships within the family unit. The, the normal family of two point four children, or whatever, is not the normal family nowadays, you've got lone parent families, you've got step parent families, reconstituted families, policies and services should take account of all the different needs of those different sorts of families, and very complex lives they lead these days? Should, you're saying, and therefore, you presumably think they don't? I I should say that you're speaking you're erm involved with the Scottish Child and Family Alliance. That's right. Now, is that a pressure group or a representative group? It's a representative group. It's a membership group of er, professional and voluntary organisations and individuals working with children and families in Scotland. Are you getting any way in in persuading the authorities, the relevant authorities, both central and local government that they should be doing more to recognise what you've described as the diversity of family options? Well we put pressure on, but I mean I'm so I still governments tend to feel that the normal family is is the nuclear family and as, as Susan said earlier one parent families are seen as a burden on the state rather than a valid new family in society. I tell you what we haven't got onto at all yet, and it's something I said we would try and talk about wh which is what what makes a good parent? Is it possible to define what makes a good parent? Is it, is it being there? Is it, yes? I don't think there is a super parent i , all you can is your be , do your best, and that's the best type of parent, is you do your best, your best ch ability. Mhm. Love and time. Love and time. That are the two, two main ingredients of being a good parent in my opinion. Now the implication of time is that er which, who who go, who earns the money? It doesn't really matter who earns the money. Erm I have obviously, there's a generation gap here in the way that I was brought up, and the way that I started marriage thirty years ago. It was excepted that that, in a lot of cases wives were expected to give their jobs up when they're married, but I see now the mo , my er, not my own children but my young nieces and nephews, the men,th the husbands are present at the birth of their children, they are enchanted, they are making fantastic fathers because they are taking responsibilities! The wives are having to go back to work to maintain the mortgage and they are prepared to take their part of it. Mhm. I think a good parent is someone who's prepared to put their needs and wishes of their children before their own Mm. and prepare to negate their own personality to some extent for the good of a child. To change your personality when you become a parent. Janice? We talked about things going wrong, one of the things that's disturbed me about the tone of the discussion has been the emphasis of rights. When things go wrong, when families come into conflict, people start talking about my rights! Now you're talking as a, as a solicitor, yes? I am. I am also talking from a perspective of the British Agencies for Adoption and Fostering and it's concern for children generally. Erm I don't think we need to talk about parents' rights, I think we need to look much more at the needs of children and I think we need to listen to children, er particularly when there's conflict, we need to hear what they say about their parents, about what their needs should be. Let's take the issue of responsibility seriously, not the issue of rights! To be fair, I didn't, I did say we're talking about parenting and one one could do another programme perhaps, focusing on the child or the needs and rights of the child in specific, but I think I've been looking at the almost the scariness, I suppose, of being a parent, the challenges facing parents and the whole half hour, really, has not been about the joys of parenthood, so much as the problems of parenthood! Ann,wha what do you make of that? Well Ja , Janice says we should listen to the children, which is what I did, I interviewed children of divorced parents five years after their divorce, and I found that the children thought that their parents were right to di , to divorce, the parents couldn't sustain their marriages. But, for the children there was a lot of sadness and they desperately wanted, as I think all, most children of divorced do, to keep in touch with both parents and right from the beginning of a separation. It's very important that when parents split up the child has the opportunity to know where both parents are living and how to keep in touch with both of them. I think we have given rather a gloomy vision of what being a parent is and probably rather a er, a wo one one that will make you think twice if you were thinking of doing it! Now, I don't how many of you are parents, eighty five of you thought your parents did a good job, fifteen didn't. Let me ask you, if you could remake decisions, or maybe you are in a position where you could, I wonder whether you would opt for parenthood now, I mean you be what, whether you're able or not able to have children, whether you have or don't have, but given the choice, would you opt for parenthood? Button one for yes, and button two for no. And given some of the difficulties which we've suggested in the course of this half hour are involved. And eighty of the hundred women here say, yes, despite the responsibilities which have been outlined, they would go for parenthood. The twenty who said no, let's just hear one or two of you, why why why did you say no? Given the choice, why would yes Jackie? I I usually there are two categories of women. All of us as women have the right and and the ability to give birth, that is if we can, there's nothing, er, medically wrong with us but then added to that there are those who have the ability to be good mothers,un unfortunately I don't happen to fall into that category. Er, but having said that I mean I have a sweet five year old daughter and I wouldn't change her for anything, but given the second chance I wouldn't do it again. How do you know you don't have the ability to be a good mother? It's it's just the strains that I've had to go through, raising her up, and the time and the energy and just having myself to be sane, you know and and well! To make, to give her the welfare and I've proved it, I mean I just sometimes goes off I can't Meg, you had the first word you can have the Yeah, I'm just thinking last word. erm, one or two here are adoptive parents of children, not babies, but Aha. children, and talking about the strain , I mean some of these kids are very, very disturbed but I voted that I would, I would do it again. Erm, but I wouldn't do it without a father. And I was brought up virtually without a, well he felt as if he wasn't a father, he felt as though he was my younger brother all the time! I certainly would, would ado , adopt again and and despite the strains, and she's quite right ! She's quite right ! But I mean as any adoptive parent here will tell you, the strains when you adopt a child, or adopt children, very disturbed children are much worse ! And yet, I would do it again. Which is where we'll have to leave it. I'll tell you one thing, listening to the range of views you've heard tonight, the different opinions and the different situations, whatever you think, you're normal! See you next week! Hello! I'm David Johnston and you can give me a call right now on . Good Morning. You're listening to Dial David Johnston on Max A M. At long last, perhaps, the next tale of Edinburgh's Premiere League football grounds may be about to move on. According today's Scotland on Sunday Newspaper, Hearts and it's Chairman Wallace Mercer are coming round to the idea of sharing a ground with Hibs on the site the council wants, at Ingleston. As the negotiations grind on, and on, time is passing quickly towards the deadline set for Premiere League grounds to implement the Taylor Report improvements. Hibs reaction to the proposals is still far from clear, but, with a new report out from the council soon the time is coming for decisions to be taken. This one seems to have been going on for far too long! How about Ingleston? It was the outsider when ground share was first muted, but a super-league home for Edinburgh football in the west of the city, handy for the motorways and the bypass might make sense, might it not? 's the number to dial. The Scottish Office will issue a consultation paper on the future of local government next week with Mr Major branding regions like Strathclyde monstrosities at the Tory conference, it's perhaps clear the way they're thinking. The government want to replace the complexities of the present arrangements with single tiered councils, that's to say one authority providing all the local services. Few enough people at the moment know which council does what. In Edinburgh the corporation's blamed for everything, despite the fact it ceased to exist nearly twenty years ago! And the region and district split services between them. Do you think your local council does any good? Do you want to keep it er, keep Lothian or Fife regions? Or do you not see any point in keeping them at all? is the number to dial. We'll be going to the telephone lines in a moment or two to talk about these subjects, or anything else you wish to raise this Sunday morning. First, a break. You're listening to Dial David Johnston, Max A M. Eyes down, look in! Here we go again. The first call of the day Mr from West Caulder Good morning! Good morning Mr Johnston. I'd like to talk about Scottish Homes open space maintenance charters i.e., grass cutting etcetera. Right. Now, each householder or tenant in a Scottish Homes estate in West Lothian has to pay for this service as well their poll tax. I dare say you've heard of that? But Tha , that's because the ta , the the estates are, are owned by Scottish Homes and the, the poll tax obviously goes towards the Yes. the councils then. Right. Now, in West Caulder th the charge erm amounted this year to forty pound, that's for nineteen ninety one cos they're always a year behind. Mhm. Now, the actual cost of grass cutting amounts to seventy pound forty five erm, various remedial work which they um specify comes to eleven pound seventy. But, to crown it all, they have a administration of four pound thirty seven er, all of these plus VAT. Now, and these What what , the four pounds thirty seven's to administer sending out the bill for you? Yes. So, there are a hundred ninety two houses in this particular estate erm, which makes a total of eight hundred and forty pound just for sending a bill! Right. Now, incorporated in these charges there's a litter collection, so if litter is dumped on District Council ground, but they won't it at the Scottish Homes land, then the owner have to pay for this service. And this was clearly stated, I, a Scottish Homes repre , representatives had a meeting, er, in West Caulder recently and they stated this ridiculous state of affairs! Right. So so wha , what what you're saying is, it's all just nonsense? Or or you don't mind paying some of it, or or what? I don't want to pay any at all. I mean, the District Council have taken over Scottish Homes, they've been passed to them, in Falkirk and Mid-Lothian recently. Mhm. And I believe er, at this meeting it was revealed that Scottish Homes had received a tender from the West Lothian District Council for this work over a period of ten years for a figure which comes to four hundred thousand pound which, apparently, was the cheapest tender! But Scottish Homes have given this job to Scottish land on a yearly basis. Right. So I mean, this is a ridiculous state of affairs! Why sho why should we have to pay for this service as well as our poll tax? Okay. Well thank, thanks for your call Mr , I dare say that er, other people in a, in a similar position may er, may want to er, take you up on that. Next, Mr from Portobello good morning. Good morning Mr Johnston! It's about the football ground at Ingleston. Mhm. Erm, I don't think it'll ever take off actu , actually, because er you've got all the traffic all there already and if you've got say, say you have got Hibs and Hearts you got all the traffic going out there at the same time and it's gonna be chock-a-block! But I mean, Ingleston's well used to handling the Highland Show and er ba , and er, you know, the the existing airport traffic er, and so on. Yes, but also, what about a night time game? You're gonna have the flood lights on, right beside a na , and international airport? Er, it could be o off-putting for the for the planes. Right. But I, but I mean, basically, the the er, the objections you raised to it there are are are planning objections which presumably the councils thought about when they advocated Ingleston as as the home for a new stadium. Well, I'd just like to think that maybe we have thought about it, you know. I would, I would like to really think that. Because, look at, I'm not, you know, I'm not er gonna even talk about the disaster at airport things, you know, the taking off and landing, if you've got a stadium nearby with a lot of people in it, and one of these disasters happened to happen, I know we're not looking for that, but if it does, you're gonna have a stadium full of people if a plane comes down, well, you know. Right. I say, a plane could come down anywhere right. Are you a football fan yourself? Yes. Er th , which team do you support? I support the one at er, the east end. Right. So so it Hibernian o on on footballing principles rather than planning principles would you have any objection to Er to going to Ingleston? I mean,th this, you know, they said the I wou , I don't fancy Ingleston at all! I would rather stay in Leith I'm afraid but and if you can't stay in the east, you want to stay in the east of the city? Yeah, I would like to stay Leith, that's where all the football fans are that support Hibernian. Right. Er if my choice, I'd like to be in the docks, but things cannot ha happen that way, we've got a lot o , a lot of the yuppies moving in that area, and that seems to be taking over that area so no chance of a football stadium there. Things do have to move on. The outside of the town seems to be the best idea. Erm, you know, the old American way where you can take your family, park in a car park, have a picnic, go to the game sort of thing. That Mm. seems to be the thing they're all looking for. Erm, as I say, you know, I Straiton's not to far away, it's still far enough. Er,a as I say, Leith Leith It's stra , Straiton's stretching your loyalty as far as it'll go. Is that, is that far enough? Pardon? Is that far enough? What was that again? Sa Straiton would stretch your loyalty as far as it would go geographically? Yes, I wo I I would , I would go for that, I'm afraid. But, as I say, Leith is in the preference, and it's a preference for a lot of football fans. Okay. Thanks very much indeed for that. Next is the, the Hearts chairman, Wallace Mercer, good morning. Morning David. David, I just wanted to say that there's an article in one of er, the newspapers this morning which really is a di distortion of the current Heart's board's position and I just wanted to Well that's that's really what I, I started the programme off Right. with. I didn't realise that. The er, the Scotland on Sunday piece Right. suggesting tha that you're warming to the idea No. of moving No. to Inglestone. Can I just quite clearly put on record, and it's a unanimous decision of the board, we wrote to Edinburgh District a few weeks ago, we've told them that we will use our best endeavours David, to prosecute the application at Hammerston If we get planning consent and we decide that we can't afford a new stadium in total, because of the economic situation, we are aggressively re-looking at the redevelopment of Tynecastle. Only in i i in in exceptional circumstances, and I do mean absolutely exceptional circumstances, would we even consider going to Ingleston! We've already written Lothian region this week worried about the safety aspect. We don't want to be cajoled into an arrangement at Ingleston, which is just a political convenience. And Hearts A political convenience for who? For the politicians? For the council? Well I,i we feel as a club, sometimes, that our position is being manipulated and distorted. I mean, I'm furious, again, in the newspaper this morning they were having a go at Convenor Milligan! All he has been trying to do is to trying to ensure that there's been even-handed play here on all the stadium sites and it's disgraceful that his name has been dragged into this! Hearts will either be at Hermestone or Tynecastle. Ingleston, if we were offered a King's ransom, we might have to sit down and think about it, but it is very much a long, long shot! But surely the problem is that time's cracking on and you're gonna have to start thinking about the Taylor Report recommendations. Well Well I'm sure you are already thinking about the we've already written , we've already written last week to the Scottish office, we've written to our member of parliament and we've asked him to see if we can get a delay on the date because we've taken three years to try and get planning consent. But what I want the Hearts Mid-Lothian supporters to know is that if we don't go to Hermestone, it is highly likely we'll be remaining at Tynecastle, and we could put together a very attractive proposal there. So, so, when do you, as far as your concerned is this going to be sorted out? I mean, if if if the council We, as the board will ha , be making a decision, David, within the next two months. We did a confidential letter to Edinburgh District a month ago telling them that. There's no way we can even consider Ingleston just now, when we're involved at Hermestone and re-looking at Tynecastle. So, so if the, if the region come back to you and knock back Hermestone, er would you appeal? Or would you just say, well that's it let's press again with Tynecastle? Well we'll have to consider that along with land Messrs, cos we think it's a brilliant site with good road access and we want to work very hard with the people that put the deal together. But, Tynecastle is very much a, a second option, that we're really quite keen on now. But wa , but surely an honest broker deal er involving Hibs and the district council di at Ingleston must be an attractive proposition for Well football fans? well David I can't speak on behalf of Hibs, all I can say Mm. is that Tom Farmer and also the Hib's board seem to on, on on, numerous occasions say they've no interest in Ingleston, and they want to go ahead with Straiton. I think they should get planning consent and go ahead and develop Straiton. But, but are, are the troubles er not, that that you and Hibs and pursuing erm financial objectives rather than footballing objectives? No. That's crass stupidity! I mean frankly David, if you look at the number of games we've had so far this season, it would be totally impractical for both teams to have played on the same pitch. It'll be physically impossible with fixtures for, with the number of fixtures we've had, it's just, er it's physically no er not not possible. The supporters have quite clearly indicated they don't want to share. It will be madness for Hearts to consider that as an option! And if we don't go to Hermestone, we'll stay at Tynecastle. That's the bottom line! Now, if Edinburgh District want to talk to us about Ingleston, and we don't want to upset them, we'll talk to them, but it would have to be an in , and enormous financial attraction for us even to consider that. Okay. So, so, two months time we should know where we're going? I, I would hope even sooner than that. Okay. Thanks very much indeed for you call. Eileen from Edinburgh, good morning. Yes, good morning er, Mr Johnston. Erm, I would like to talk about er, one of the articles that's in the one of the Sunday papers this morning. Erm, it's about the government squeezing the pensioners again. Erm This suggestion that the pensions may be frozen on Thursday? Yes. Yes. Erm there's an article in one of the papers this morning, and er it was I think it's an absolute disgrace! Erm I'm a home help and I go you know, for a lot of pensions and erm the pittance that these er old men and women have to live on a th th , I mean I really think it's terrible! And now they're talking about freezing it! I mean, it seems to be the pensioners who come in for th the tt you know, the same thing all the time. And I mean, they're actually living on a pittance as it is! So, so Erm who who do you think, I mean,th , you know, the government's making it pretty clear at the moment, Mrs , that that er, in these troubled times something's gonna get squeezed because there's so m , many people out of work that gi , you know, they're having to pay more unemployment benefit, there's not enough tax money coming and and generally the government is hard up, so someone's going to get squeezed in the social security system. Yeah, but what about the unemployed? I mean, who who do you think should get squeezed? Should it be, you know, single Well parents or I mean, these old men People on the dole. these old men and women, I mean, they've worked all their life and er th th there are I mean, there was an article last week in one of the papers as well, and it said, you know, all, all the benefits that we get, there was thousands not, not claiming benefits that they was entitled to Mhm. but it's only for people who are actually on income support. And th and then we have Mr Lilley saying that there were lots of people at the Tory Party Conference, remember, he had his little list that he was going to go through and and erm chop out all the, the social security scroungers and people who abused the system. Yes. But I mean, er th ,th , yes. Well, why not, why not come down hard on them? I mean, why, why make it the pensioners every time? I mean,th th there's, I mean I think it's an absolute disgrace as I said, really! I mean, I think it's terrible and, and I mean, if Mr Lilley himself went into some of the houses that I go into and see the the existence that they live, because that's all it is, you know, it's just an existence. And some, some of their fa , I mean, if they're lucky enough to have families who do help them that, er that, that's fine, but I mean a lot of them don't have anybody at all, and they really have to pay their gas, electric, rent, poll tax, off an absolute pittance! And I think it's an absolute disgrace! Okay. Thanks very much for that. Bu erm,th but as I say, the government were making it perfectly clear this week that something's gonna get squeezed. I wonder if people have any er, ideas for for who could be squeezed and not cause an outcry and not cause undue suffering and distress? Nelly from Edinburgh's next, good morning? Good morning David. How are you? Very well thanks. Yourself? I , fine thank you. It's about the housing department. Mhm. Er, my friend got a house at Westerhailes Park eleven months ago and er it was alright at the beginning, then she started getting hassle, from the kids coming to her door asking for cigarettes and she didn't give them them, and they were banging on her door, tapping on her windows and everything. So, it got worse and worse and It's similar to a call we had erm a couple of weeks ago Nelly, about about er, people being pestered with er with with children like this. Yes. A and being threatened. So erm, however What what sort of threats? Erm Enough to frighten her obviously? Yes. So she sitting one night, er, a week past Monday watching her television and she had the window open a li little bit for er air, and the next thing there's a boy half way through the window! So, of course, then she panicked. So anyway she decided she was going out Livingston to live with this friend of hers. So,sa sa sa sa , well do , sorry, just don't le don't leave the boy half way through the window, what happened? She just frightened him off and he ran away sort of thing? Yeah. Okay right off. Ha! However, so erm she asked me if I'd go up and give her hand to sort things out, so I was up on the Friday morning and I said well you better phone the corporation and tell them that you're moving out on Saturday morning. So she's phoned, and I says, ask them if they're coming to board up the windows which were boarded when she went in? Mhm. So, erm she phoned She, she got a new house in Livingston no problem? No, she got a friend there. Oh right. Okay. So er, she phoned the corporation and she asked the man, to, to say she was leaving on the Saturday morning and were they, were they gonna come and er ba er what wi , er, bar up the windows? Mhm. And their, well their answer's says are they broken? She said no. Well nothing we can do! But the point is David, they are broken, now! So, they've had to get men in, to board the windows up then if somebody else gets the house, they've got to get these men to come and take the boards down again, then they glazier has to put the window in. This, to me, is a waste of money! Well, but I mean, we've identified a problem, even if someone was living there Nelly th er, the the person was being terrorized by children and and was having her house broken into. So Yes. sa , so what are you saying, that the council should have been straight round to board it up? No. Because, she's moved now and she doesn't care fo , what happens now. And, and the police can do nothing David, because their hands are tied, for a simple reason, if you name a name, which I don't know any, erm they gang up on you! Now a as I say, I was up on there on Friday and erm Is this er We Westerhailes Drive you say? No, Westerhailes Park. Westerhailes Park, I beg your pardon. I was up, and I went to the shops and I came and there's a wee boy which used to live in the flats, and he says hello Nelly. He says, can you give my friend a cigarette? I said, I've told you already son, I've stopped smoking. And the lad he was pointing to had a sling on his arm, then there was a bigger boy and I said, I'm sorry son. So anyway, I went to open the outside door How old were these children Nelly? Sorry to in keep interrupting. We well , the wee boy, I think, maybe about seven, the other one may be about ten, and the other one be about fifteen. And as I say, the middle one had a sling on his arm, so, as I was opening the outside door one of them says, well if you've not got cigarettes, you better give me a tenner or I'll thump you! And I turned right round and I says, the boy with the sling said it wasn't me, I says to the big one, I said, do you want your legs in plaster? And he took off. But this is what the people are going through David! But, as I said, apart from this hassle, you've got to sort it out yourself, cos the police can do nothing! But the corporation, I think, is wasting more money boarding up these windows and then when people take them over again. Do you think that's, do you think that's what what you've experienced there, do you think that's untypical or do you think that's a fairly good example of of of life in that part of Westerhailes? I it's well it's all over. But the point is, if you tell them you're leaving, why don't they come and board the windows up and save all this money? But why don't, why don't, why don't There's still gonna be the ha , there's still always gonna be the hassle. It's pretty, it's pretty bad that, that a seven year old if he was seven, is Yes. is allowed to run round victimizing, with all due respect Yes! to you, elderly Yes! people! Yes! Yes! Terrorizing elderly people. David , I was What they won't terrorize. What? Ah, what? Sorry? Th , I won't, they won't terrorize me! Well, not again perhaps, but No. they certainly had a try to. But I mean,th , I won , I won Yes, aha David. And exactly! I wonder what his parents thought Alright. he was doing? Exactly! You see i well you, you better give me ten pound or I'll thump you! Yep. And of course, but the point is, if you'd a been an ol and older person like myself, seventy two, which is was frightened and maybe I'd even give them, two pound, three pound but what That's it. for nothing! For nothing. That's right. And whe and when sta I mean if, and if I said we'll have, if I have the policemen down, and they say they can, there nothing they can do because we don't know their names Ah. and even if you may name them, there'd be a gang on you! Okay. And those were all spluttered with mud, and eggs, and everything! Okay. Thanks very much indeed for your call Nelly. I wonder what other people make of that, if, er if other people have had similar experiences? If other people have had other experiences, if if they share erm, er Nelly's er belief there that there is nothing that can be done about it? 's the number to dial and we'll have some more calls in a moment. You're listening to Dial David Johnston on Max A M. I must say, that I find er calls like the one there from from Nelly particularly shocking and and, and can't help wondering how widespread er, this is er across the area? Th the thought of elderly people having their er later years terrorized by by er young thugs like that, some of aged apparently only seven. I wonder if that's er, the exception rather than the rule? Anyway, if you want to chip in on that. Mr from Edinburgh next. Good morning! Hello Mr ? Mr . I beg your pardon! Mr . Er just I've been a Hibs supporter for forty four years now following them and er I don't think, I do nay fancy a move out to Ingleston. And, they keep saying that surely that would suit everybody? I don't even know Hearts fans that would like to go out there. But something's gonna have to be done though isn't it, Mr ? Ha, aye. Okay, but Ingleston's not the answer. Straiton would suit me if er there's got to be a move. Straiton would suit me. Like the other gentleman that was Portobello er if it cannae be where it is now then Straiton, for me, would be the best option. Do , but it isn't it a nonsense to to embark on two twenty million pound stadiums when, with a bit of thought and effort you could probably get away with one? Well, no, I think er, it's a nonsense for the, you to keep pushing this er Ingleston one! It's not me, it's the council that's doing it. Aha. But it's a,yo , it's not the council that's er putting out to the people on the radio it's yourself! Right. Okay. Thanks for that. Jean from er, Fife, good morning. Good morning. It's about the home help. Mm. Er, I agree with them that the elderly do have a bad deal, but if e , if somebody's got to take money off well surely sho , the government should be taking a cut ten to twenty percent off of their damned wages! They keep on getting extra wages every year for doing nothing! Put the government on performance related pay? Exactly! Yes! Because, I mean the elderly have got little enough, okay, there is extra benefit, but they don't want people to know how poor they are. I work amongst the elderly and I do know that they are very shy about telling people just how poor they are. So surely if the government er, have, can't have the money they cut their own throat? Okay. But, I mean,do , to to be more realistic, I mean,o , if, obviously if, if all the government took a fifty percent pay cut it still wouldn't make a great deal of difference? If benefits are going to be squeezed,i is there a, is there a painless way of doing it or, or is it going to cause suffering whatever happens? Well, I think cu , er cause suffering whatever it happens, but, surely why, I mean the elderly had to suffer through the wars so why should they have to suffer again now? I mean, the young ones, a lot of them sitting around in Edinburgh and begging off the streets and that, they could get off their backsides and get a job! And er, let's face it there is jobs going if they're wanting them. Okay, they're poor paid, but at least they would have the pride of saying that they've got a job whereas the elderly are having to just sit at home and turning down their fires and turning down their central heating in case they can't afford their bills! But I mean, were led to believe that some of the people that you see sitting on the streets of Edinburgh begging are actually making a good living out of it ! Yes! Definitely, they're making far better living, but they're also getting all their benefits, they're getting er fringe benefits off the government. Mm. So, I mean, er it's the proof old folks that get it, they got it in the war time, they had to starve in war time to feed their children. I mean, I, er personally, I mean, my father was killed ten weeks after the war started. My mother had four children she had bring up, without anything for the first two years, how the hell she managed it, I don't know! Right. But now tha , they're, they're punishing them because they're they're ancient! They're just, they don't want them, and yet they're keeping them living longer! They keep on getting them drugs to keep them going longer, so why? I mean, they can't have it all ways! Okay. Thanks for that. Mr from Musselburgh, good morning. Good morning David! It's about this Scottish Homes Charters. Mhm. While I sympathize with the caller from West Calder, I feel we pay poll tax as well to cover all these things but when I bought my house, my solicitor had me in for two hours and went through all my obligations under the title deeds part of was, that I had to pay one three hundredths of keeping the open areas clean and tidy plus grass cutting. Is it, is that because the th the house you live in's got a lot of green space round it? Mine has none around it that belong, ah ah, doesn't belong to, it belongs to Scottish Homes. Right. But, there are parts in the estate which are maintained by district council district council and are paid by Scottish Homes. Right. And you ar , it is part of your obligations when you take the house on. And I feel that many solicitors do not do their job they do not explain fully to the purchaser what they are taking on. Right. So yo , so you're saying that it should have been explained to the man from West Calder that that's the sort of, er level of charges he'd had to pay and if he didn't want to pay it he should have taken a different house? Yes. I mean, I de , I do , I agree with what, I don't agree Scottish Homes charging this at all Mhm. but it's there in your title deeds. Therefore, I know it's in my title deeds and I would assume it's in his title deeds. Right. And, I mean I fully sympathize with the gentleman, but I feel his lawyer should explain this to him, and also I feel, why should he pay such a extortionate rate of poll tax and have to pay again for grass cut and street swept? Cos that's exactly what it is. Okay. Thank you very much indeed for that. Mrs from Edinburgh, good morning. Er, good morning Mr Johnston. I'm on on about the same subject. I stay in the Slateford district and I'm in a multi-storey flat, I bought my house three year ago. Now, when I started to ba er buy my house, we are paying, we were paying twenty seven pound a month for the upkeep of the building, it's now went up to thirty four pound twenty two pence a month. It's absolut And wha so sorry, who who have bought your flat from? Is that Oh oh sorry dear! The co Edinburgh Corporation. Edinburgh District Council, right. Yes. Er, now we are paying thirty four pound twenty two pence a month for the upkeep of this building, that, as far as I know there's twelve tenants in this block has bought their house. Now, when I moved in here twenty five years ago it was a very, very nice block! It really was. It's deteriorated and deteriorated something terrible! How many flats are in it altogether do you think? There's er , there's nine, it's a nine storey building. Right. And er we're paying, and every time the corporation rents go up, what we pay a month also goes up. Now, as I say, it started off with twenty nine pound, and it's now up to thirty four pound. So so what do you get for the thirty four pounds the lift? Well , this is the thing, we have a caretaker but er fo for his services, but I've been at the council and I have got nowhere, I have from the corporation, there's an awful lot of people complaining but they'll do nothing about it! That Complaining about what? The state the building's in! Right. I mean, I have done a lot about it, and I'm the only one that has, as I say, got my mouth going and done something about it. But nobody will back me up! Sa so so what are you getting? Yo you you're getting a caretaker That's that's all all the time, that a door entry system, a lift? Well we've got the lift, yes. But I mean, when you think of the amount of people in this block that's bought their house and the state that the building's in, I mean, I have told them in the corporation that a lick of paint would nah do it any harm. Mm. Because it is, it's deteriorated, and deteriorated something terrible! The Yeah. building is really shocking! And I mean, we were told it was a first class area but there's, if anybody walked into the building just now you would nah see it was a first class area to look at the state the building's in! I mean, you know, when you think of what you're paying as a, the other gentleman was saying, we are paying the thirty four pound twenty two pence a month, then you've also got your poll tax above that, and then your mortgage as well! Mm. A , and so, to me, I think for what we're paying we should be getting some service and we are not getting it! This is where I am so annoyed! But er I wish some of the other tenants in this block would back me up and do something about it, but nobody will! They're all saying and they're all talking but I'm the only one, I have been at the council, I have been at the councillor, I have been at Waterloo Place, but nobody will back me up at all! And I think for what we're paying we should be having a wee bit er, the dir , the building should be a looking a wee bit more respectable and presentable to what it is! Okay. Thanks very much indeed for that. Mrs from Edinburgh, good morning. Good morning Mr Johnston. It's actually about where the squeeze should be taking place. Mm mm. It really annoys me when people get on and do the young people down! There are not an awful lot of jobs going about, get that straight to the people that, you know! Now, the squeeze should be from the tax at the very top. All these conservatives sit at their conference saying what they're going to do to the unemployed and the fraud and what have you! We had a business man on Question Time who was saying that five hundred million pound fraud going on in the benefits, right? Mhm. But he said that is a pittance compared to the tax dodging at the top, that's it's billions! Now I really do feel people, I I'm amazed at the working class people! They don't stick together. They they should see this, and they should be pushing it and saying you get your house in order before tackle the young people. I know the fraud goes on, and it's wrong, but I can understand it in some cases. What because you see th , people a at the, at the bottom end of society see people at the top end indulging in tax avoidance schemes and things like that, and off Yes! shore bank accounts and think well if they can get away with it why can't we? Yes! Well a , I I didn't say anyone should get away with fraud. No that's wha , no I see that. But You know, but I do, I can understand if you've got desperate, people will try anything, especially for the young families. The there's Now , I'm a pensioner, and I think it's a scandal what we get for a pension after all the years that you, you fight for you, you put away for your old age, and before you know it you've nothing! And then you become dependant on the state and you have these Tory as smug as you like! White collars, upstarts! I mean their morality! They have their own morality I think we all know that! But, the morality a and to go on about Christianity and again,tha I feel ashamed sometimes when I think of myself you know, a Christian, that's not Christianity! They, I mean th er, they're caring and sharing, and theirs is greed and gaining! Okay. Thank you very much indeed for that. Alfie from Edinburgh, good morning. Er, good morning, yeah. I'd like to talk about er, Wallace Mercer and er, I just cannae let him get away with this er in my opinion he's a two-faced twit! He's er he's saying that er the shifting of the ground's political but I'd to remember him that er,th it's the council that's doing their job, he's not doing his job. They're there to pe , to protect our land, and that's what they're doing. Right? And also, he's got a short memory when talks about political, things like that! Does he not remember when he brought John Major to Tynecastle? Right? Does he not realise that most er Hearts fans, and I'm a Hearts fan are not Tories, he is, but most of the fans are not! Right? So er he's got a very short memory. He does nay, he does nay think, he does nay think before he speaks. So,sa so what did, what did you make of what he was saying today, it's either Hermestone or he's gonna upgrade Tynecastle? Erm no er, I'd li I'd like to see er him getting, er shifting, yeah to a different place, but er, he's gotta remember , the greenbelt comes first. So I hope he's listening! So so, you'd you'd say that you would want to go to Ingleston? Er, yes I'd, I think I would go along with that, yeah. Yeah. But but you think the council should protect the greenbelt from both the development proposals of Hibs and Hearts? Yeah, and er, certainly. Yeah, that's what they're there for, they're doing their job it's him that's not doing his job. Okay. Thanks very much indeed for that. Mr from Kirkcaldy, good morning. Hello! Yeah, I'd like to speak about the the squeeze on the benefits. Mhm. Er, why can't they just look at, er do a means test for child benefit? Er, if those that were earning over a certain amount, who certainly don't need this child benefit to same the degree anyway, that's those of at the lower end of the pay scale we could they could certainly save a lot of money, and they wouldn't have to do the squeeze down on the ones that would have the most. I mean, child benefit if, erm is, is a very emotional issue isn't it? And and people say it's sometimes the only er money tha that a mother wo gets that she can call her own and and use in the way that she wants to. Yeah, that's possibly true, but And they say, you know,ev even in apparently wealthy families, er, you know, because the way the money's divided up at the end of the week, or the end of the month or whatever, that that, the no the child benefit money's all, all the woman gets. Well th , the money's for the child's benefit in the first place. Er, in double income families, certainly in double income families, surely the wife's gonna have more control over the money that she earns and the money that she can use? Okay. But I mean, er you can see the, you can see the point of that and and presumably, yes, there must be lots of very wealthy people who who er, just get the child benefit and hardly notice it but at the same time, couldn't we means test the old age pension? Cos presumably there must be an awful lot of wealthy old age pensioners about as well who, who could do with a bit less er, from the state because they've got plenty of their own, er and give a bit more to people who don't? Well I, I think that's, that is also a possibility. I think every, all the benefits should definitely be means tested, I know that most of them are to a degree. Erm but there comes a point where th , the government, the line that the government draws for means testing's always very low. Whe , why to take the, the sting out of the issue they could put the, the line higher up on the earning scale, or higher up on the sa the receiving scale for the older ones who have so , possibly stopped working? Now, I know that these people have worked all their life to get their money and their saving savings and things like that, but if they're able to manage on wha with less benefit from the government, surely they shouldn't have to watch other people who struggling and in dire needs because of that? Okay. Thank you very much indeed for that. Wonder what people make of that? Means test all benefits. Old age pension, family allowance and things like that, just to make sure that those that need get a bit extra.. You're listening to Dial David Johnston, 's the number to dial. Mrs from Loanhead, good morning. Good morning Mrs Johnston. It's about an article by Alistaire in the Evening News. I don't know if you've read it? It's about the new council tax stating that erm people will, householders will not be, receive any notification of the value of their house and of which various bands are just placed. Apparently if Are you sure about that? Yes. It's a, I'm favouring it, in, it was in the Edinburgh Evening News, October the second. Right. I've got the cutting here. Mhm. This also states that under the government rules and the Lothian regional council can only publish the list in public libraries. And the, this will appear by the end of November, and people will only have after this first council tax demands in March, they've got to appeal if they think they're in the wrong band. Now what I would like Mr Alistaire and the rest of the Scottish M P's is to bring up in parliament a Scotland will have to be revalued every five years as done in the past where England have only been revalued every seventeen years, which I think is most unfair. I find it, find it hard to believe that you're not gonna be told th the valuation of your house, in as Well, it in a , in as much as er, you know evaluations an arbitrary, and presumably there must be some right of appeal against the decision taken by the district valuer, or whoever carries out the valuation of the house. Yeah. I've got the cutting here Right. and it says, you can only appeal it will appear in November, that's when it's going to be, er put into the library Mhm. and any appeals against valuation have to be made soon after the first council tax demands are received at the end of March. Right. Mr said, I advise people to check in case there has been a mistake. They Right. should be told the evaluation personally and given a chance to appeal if they feel it is too high . Okay. Thanks very much for bringing that to our attention. Mr from Fyfe, good morning! Good morning! Er, I just wanted to talk about the cuts, er, proposed cuts in pensions. Yeah? Mhm. Erm I would go further than erm performance related pay for the cabinet and, and so on, and I would actually put them all on income support erm and see how they could cope! Or er, or on the dole er level of er of money. Erm because I don't think these people er appreciate er, what it is to have to count every penny. Erm and I didn't get any indication from the Tory conference, watching it, that er, that they had any more idea. Of course, there was that er World in Action programme a couple of years ago wasn't there, when the Tory MP from Newcastle, I think it was, went on the, on the dole for two or three week, but I Yeah. mean, presumably it's quite easy for the first two or three weeks, it's after, after a couple of months that er life gets more difficult. Well absolutely! I mean I'd like to see erm I'd like to see how they would like it. That could be the first cut in my opinion. They're on seventy and eighty thousand er er a year! Er, the economic situation is is entirely their fault, er, not that I'm saying that the Labour would do any better, but erm I'd like to see a bit more er, a bit more opposition from the er, from the Labour party and er, not so much direct action, but saying, you know, things do not have to be like this! There do not have to be any homeless people! Er, and it's er outrageous er that there are! Erm, but er it's, it's quite wrong that pensioners and er, the poorest should have to take cuts again erm when there's people on such high salaries. Okay. Thanks very much, er for you call. Hilary from Edinburgh, good morning. Hello. I'd just like to disagree with the gentleman that said that er the, the child benefit should be mean tested for us. Aha. But , I think it is for your children, but erm I've I worked er, before I had the children and Listen , I tell you, I tell you what Mrs , it's an awfully bad line. Put the phone down we'll call you back in in just a second because i , we can't really make out what you're saying. Sorry about that. We'll come back to you in a second. Er, Jim from Shots hello? Yeah. Good morning again David. Er, can I ask Wallace Mercer, if he's still listening to the programme, if he was considered the environment in his plans for the football stadium? Er Ingleston seems to be the only feasible, er site, where the wi , could be a proposed er rapid rail transit system in operation. You know, I'm like the others yo I'm like you like trains don't you? Well I do like trains, but it's not just a case of liking trains, okay, yes, I like, I like trains, I like, I mean I'm old enough to remember the steam trains, it's not just a case of that. I read in the papers last week benzene, the benzene is used in unleaded petrol. Mm. They, they have found dangerously high levels of benzene in Glasgow, Edinburgh, and other places, and this benzene apparently it can cause cancer. Now you take your choice, it's either benzene in unleaded petrol or lead in leaded petrol! Also, in today's er Scotland on Sunday, gathered, they found it not just Edinburgh, but Britain as whole I think. They found there are higher levels of carbon monoxide, carbon monoxide pollution from vehicle exhausts has increased by forty two percent Right. over the last ten years! The, I mean, how long have to be, have we to, er and I'm I'm disgusted with Edinburgh that nobody has phoned in on this sort of point! Er I, they don't seem to ca , er do the Edinburgh people not care about their environment or ? Well especially after that survey last year Yeah! tha that that showed er dangerously Yes! high Yes! levels of er, of er Mm! poisonous gases in various parts of the city. Mhm. Okay. Than thanks for that. Tom from Edinburgh, good morning. Good morning David! I, I didn't intend to come on but I think it's one of the best er, Sunday mornings I've had in years! Er, with three ladies and a gentleman come and support the pensioner, I mean this is really great! It gives me a the energy to go on and and er fight all the harder. Now, regarding the means testing of the pensioners the means testing with pensioners is dynamite for any government! They've got ten million pensioner and yet about two million of them are, are quite well off Mhm. and er, I can assure you if they started means testing pensioners they would, any government would go out on their ear! Er, and by the way But I mean, surely i if there's not enough to go round then those that need it most should get most? There is enough to go round. We're still one of the richest countries in the world and a we , and er the people they ha , there's the wealth is only about er ten percent of the people on, and about eighty percent of the wealth! Right. But it's unlikely that the conservative party is likely, going to embark on a major distribution of wealth programme between now and the next election. Yeah. And and, you know, the benefit's problem's one that's pressing presumably because Of course, it is! because they're running short of cash. Well they, they better start with perhaps the rich? And er, by the way, pensions, pensions are er, are taxed! You get all these pensions taxed! And there's loads of people just over er, getting a pension and getting a two pensions and tha they're paying tax as well! So your pension's taxed! So, so that's er really a way of means testing it er more painlessly? Okay. Thanks for that. Jim from Edinburgh, good morning. Aye, I'd like to speak on this er, outrageous proposal to sa , you know, screw down the people on benefit. This, this present government and it's predecessor has attacked the social security ee system ferociously already! Th er, industrial injuries benefit's been virtually abolished er ee along with such things as the reduced earnings allowance. And there's been screws on housing benefit, we've had the withdrawal of the right of students to claim income support and housing benefit, and unemployment benefit during vacation time. Erm, to think that those who are dependant on benefit from public funds are gonna be expected to suffer still more is, as I said, wholly outrageous! Bu but I mean, what alternative is there if there's not enough money meet the benefit bill? Well, I mean, who says that there isn't enough enough money to meet the benefit bill? I mean, I know the government say that, but but think of the money that we er , must be saving now on our armaments bill. We, with the, you know, detente, and the collapse of the the U S S R and we'll be saving a fortune now on, on armaments so surely that could be But but well I don't, I don't ploughed back? Well I don't think we are though, because I mean Well we we've just, we've just ordered the forth polar , er the the forth Trident submarine as the er you know, the the the, the slimming down of the armies yet to take to effect. Presumably they're still, you know, flying around and, and and all the rest of it? Yeah, but ne , you know, nuclear weapons and so forth, surely those have been scaled down. We're told that erm you know, the ma , the massive redundancies in places like Ferranti is due to erm, you know, those resolutions Defence cut backs. Yeah. Between ea , between east and west. So the money, and a lot of money must be getting saved ee somewhere, so I don't see any reason why that couldn't be ploughed back into the,th th the benefit system. I mean, again, it's outrageous Mm. to say, only state retirement pensions payable on an earnings related basis. After all, people have contributed to these pensions during their working lives and in order to qualify for a full pension, you need to have paid into it for over forty years. Are you, is someone gonna pay into a insurance scheme for forty years and then suddenly be told, well you don't qualify? I mean, that's a classic case of changing the, the rules after the game's started! Right. Okay, thanks for that Jim. Er mi , Mrs back again, hopefully on a better line this time. Hello Mrs . Hello. Yes it is. Er, it's just I feel that I've worked all my days and did without and er er had put savings away and things like that so that when I stopped working to have children I would have money, but if you were means tested, and the money is for the children as well, anyway and the people who, you know, I don't mean that all people, a lot of people who are supposedly not having money, and getting all these things, they sell them and things like that. And I mean, all people do that, but why is it when you've worked you always seem to get hammered? If you're in a borderline sort of wage, you always get hammered for everything, and you don't seem to get any kind of But I mean that would just be an argument about where they set the level that you no longer were to qualify for child benefit, but I mean,bu , you know,presuma , presumably er,th the point the man was was making that er, the child benefit goes equally Aha. to , to the poorest in society and the richest Yes. in society. I mean Aha. you know, presumably the erm, Duchess of York qualifies for child benefit. Aha. If she ever has time to pop down the post office to get it. Yeah. I've, yeah I know, but it's just some days you, I know, I see what you mean, talking about that, but at the end it is for your children anyway, cos you know, that money should be for your children and if you have worked and you put the money away for them anyway, you've paid your taxes and things. Right. A and,we it, well that that takes us back to to er, to what I think, either er Tom or Jim was saying there that you know, if you're paying into something yo you you expect to er, to get out of it when and if you need it. Well you do. You know, and I mean we we work, you know, it's like er I mean I have to pay full poll tax and all these type of things too, even though my husband's on a sort of very er basic sort of wage, and I pay all these things you know. Okay. Thanks very much indeed for you call. Donald from Livingston good morning. Good morning. Er I've just woken up, sorry! Erm just something that came into my head e er cos the alarm switched on with your programme and it was a gentleman talking about the different taxes and what have you Mhm. and I thought come into my head, it's probably complete rubbish but it seems logical at the time which was, if you got rid of er, a lot of the various taxes that they paid and put everything on to VAT, apart from the fact that you'd be a few, just by upping the rate of VAT they would collect the extra monies, you'd save a lot of the money you'd pay in administration costs by, all the various different departments er And and there's, the more money you had the more things you would buy, so the more VAT you'd pay? That's right. So I mean But, but the only trouble everybody pays VAT because you're you pay for the things that you buy. I mean, they always get the money through But th the only trouble, the only trouble with with that is, it might knock the rate of VAT and u up an awful lot and the people who only buy very little will be able to even less. But the thing is, who, at the moment you're paying right, er you pa , you get your money off your employers, you pay your tax you go out and buy your things and pay, pay your taxes on whatever you buy Mhm. Oh yes! I, I see the whether it's services or goods theory behind it. then, when you've finished with it you're paying again yo , to the community tax, as it's going to be or whatever Okay. er to get them to take the stuff away. Okay. Listen, thanks for your call. We're right out of time. Er, thanks to everyone who's called the programme. What a horrible thought! Fancy turning on your alarm clock an an being woken up by me banging on! Have a very pleasant Sunday. if you say and it's true because right erm, the er that was talking about yesterday in lecture involves erm the notion of selfhood in and erm seems to be er a very very deeply complicated er topic, so erm I imagine there are questions that you folks had. There were certainly questions that I had in listening to the lecture and reading of the material and erm as herself said, there does seem to be something of an in own thinking about this. Erm,would be erm as follows. We are aware that there are lots of individuals around us, individual people like Socrates erm and erm Plato, erm and then there is the possibility that in addition to these individual people er at the level of there are corresponding to these individual people at the level of intellect erm there are forms of these individuals. like there is also the level of . Forms for all sorts of , forms for all sorts of things erm the, the normal Platonic range of forms plus possibly in addition forms for Socrates and forms for Plato. Erm, and the introduction of these forms of individuals erm might have arisen as the one passage that showed us might suggest, the passage from five seven on page three of her handout number eleven there, the need for forms of individuals might have arisen from the following . We are enjoined to transcend our bodily selves and we are enjoined to erm move to the level of intellect through contemplation, that is by pursuing philosophy we will withdraw ourselves from our mere bodily selves and be elevated to the realm of intellect. Erm, and one thing that you might worry about is, okay, once I get up there, how do I get back down again? Erm, that worry might come in two different ways. Er, how do I get down at all, erm, of course that might not be a worry, you might and just remain in the realm for all eternity. But then you might worry, if I'm bound to come back down again, how can I guarantee that I come back down into the right erm body again. That is, how can I guarantee that I will remain erm being me after my ascent from the level of the forms. And the erm construction of forms for individuals might be an answer to that problem. That is, when Socrates retreats from his body to the level of intellect, erm, he's represented by proxy in the erm divine light by the form of Socrates. Erm, and then erm he returns from the form of Socrates to being Socrates again and is not either er lost up in the soul erm or somehow tragically transported downward from the level of intellect into the wrong body. Erm, Socrates does some contemplation er, withdraws from his empirical self, becomes intellect and then afterwards er drops into the wrong empirical er self and turns into well, some erm some ho hideous beast. Erm, who knows? He might turn into . Think, think of the person you'd least like to find yourself becoming. Is he actually intimating here, erm, I'm not, we use the word forms here, but in a more active modern sense to say Could be It seems that that would really more easily. Well, what's the contrast here? Remaining an identity. Right, what's, perhaps I should have started with, with the contrasting picture in which, at the level of intellect, erm, there would be no individual forms, but only forms say for human beings. Erm, and another form over here for a horse erm and then when I found my true self erm, here I am, Socrates, and I'm trying to withdraw from my erm what erm called the empirical self. I'm trying to withdraw from the empirical self and erm return to the level of forms. And the form that I return to is the form of human being, erm, that's the form that I have and whatever individuates Socrates from Plato erm is not a matter of the form because they have exactly the same form. In fact, whatever individuates these two happens only at the level of matter or the soul bodily things. Now, if that were right, that is, here's our bodily bit here, that's what individuates them, right, Socrates is shorter than Plato, Plato is a bit taller than Socrates, Socrates has funny bulgy eyes, erm Plato must have been rather a normal looking person, a variety of things that differentiate them, but they're not different in respect of being human beings. Erm, but we're told this interesting thing about them, mainly that, er about them and about us as well, that their true self is not their current bodily condition. Their true self is more truly erm at the level of intellect or forms. Right, that's the whole part about one's true self. Again one could draw as it were a sort of a picture of erm one's true self as a sort of largish lump, er much of which was the body and then within this smaller portion which is the soul, and within that a still smaller portion which is the mind, and then in all of us there is present to us the one, and we're told that we ought to think about our body, that it is not our true self. Erm, that this is a merely transient and accidental something that erm somehow as it were has stuck on to us, rather like some disagreeable substance on the sole of one's shoe. Erm, and so too our body has got stuck on our soul erm but we can shed it again erm to find our inner self. And in turn we can shed the soul to find our true self with the mind. There's tension here. Erm, the closer we get to our true self,seems to be saying, erm the less there is to distinguish er Socrates' true self from Plato's true self erm so it's a little bit dicey about what he's gonna say. How, if, if Socrates' true self is the form of human being and Plato's true self is the form of human being erm then how can we tell their true selves apart? Yeah? Okay. So, erm, your point is that erm you move upward from your body to a level of intellect and then at the level there's still a further journey to go, up to no one, and that's our true self. There's a fascinating journey here, isn't there? Because one gets the impression that it's an upward journey Aha but I think myself it's an internal journey. So then it's an internal journey, you've done it then, you keep your identity because your journey is into the deepest self where you find you you go through these levels Right but not, not out there, but in there. Yeah, there's no doubt that the one is in each of us. Yeah, so I mean it's an inward journey. Right, right. So, if that is the case how can we possibly lose our identity because we haven't, we're not, there's no suggestion if we go on an inward journey, the inward journey must be within our selves, within our individuality, not, not jumping out into some form of spacial context. Well, except that, that erm I think that even in defending our idea that we retain our individuality you relied on spacial movement, that is when you say that, or when I say that the one is within us, clearly you must be speaking metaphorically. Because the one doesn't have any location whatsoever, nor for that matter do the forms, even the matter of intellect is non-spacial and non-locational. Erm, so I agree with you that the metaphor of ascent is only a metaphor. It can't really be a matter of changing one's altitude. Erm er there's no lift alas. But neither can the idea of going inward being metaphorical either, it's not as though there's any location within my body erm which is the location of the one. Nor, if the four of us get into your car, are there four locations within the car location of the one. One of the problems it seems, that I can see about this, is that the little sort of semi- diagram, you could almost reverse the, the and have the same sort of problem in other words. And that seems to be more along the lines of a view er Yeah, so this is, this a little picture of what Socrates looks like but as you're pointing out erm er also sometimes likes to discredit the whole cosmos in the other direction. It's the one that's all embracing or all encompassing. Erm, and the intellect is within the one somehow. Cos now of course we're talking about the whole cosmos, the everything that there is, the all, the whole erm and then, you're right, he does talk about erm erm body at one er extraordinary point he talks about body, the relation of body and soul being that of a er fishing net er floating through the ocean and erm the ocean is soul and this fishing net is er body floating erm through it. Very very erm suggestive metaphor although I don't know exactly what it's extraordinary one, erm erm erm, the, perhaps we should begin to step back a second here, to think about how we normally individuate things. Erm, that is, normally we think that we and lots of things around us are susceptible to change. Erm, er for instance this book could be changed by tearing a page out of it. Erm and that would alter the book but nevertheless we would want to say, what I did was to alter the book. It was the book that I altered. It's the same book which now is slightly different. That's very different from say er destroying this book and replacing it with this book. Erm, that's not a change of any one book, that's just a replacement of one book by another. Similarly, if I tell you that I am going to move this piece of chalk in front of me, and I demonstrate look here goes right okay, same piece of chalk has moved across in front of me. That's rather different from saying here is the motion of a piece of chalk. Okay. Sorry that's not the motion of a piece of chalk, that's the replacement of one piece of chalk by another. No piece of chalk had moved across the front of me. Rather, erm, one was in one position and then a second took up a different position. In order that is for there to be some change, whether er change er like having a page torn out or a change like moving from one location to another, there also has to be something that stays the same, mainly the subject of change. The thing of which I say the it changes. Erm, so how do we do that with people? Er, I can say for instance that I'm changing because I'm er getting older, I'm getting tireder erm all sorts of things can be said about me. Erm, but they're still being said about me. Er, there's something that's me that survives these different changes of location erm age and size erm all kinds of things are consistent with it still being me that's doing the changing rather than my having been replaced by something else. Well, erm, what kinds of changes can be performed on me and still it would be the case that it's me? That the end be changed and has now been changed. What are those kind of changes on one hand. And on the other hand, what are changes such that we want to say that at the end of the change there is just no me left there at all and I've been replaced by something else. Erm, I take it this is to ask the question, what's essential to me and what's accidental to me? Really this is not er a new division, this is just oral distinction of essential and accidental properties. Erm, so right now I'm wearing a tweed jacket. Erm, having changed my jacket to a blue jacket I'll still nevertheless be me. Because even if I weren't wearing the tweed jacket I'd still be me. If I were no longer a human being then one might wonder whether I was still me at all. If I were no longer er an animal of any kind, one might be quite disinclined to think that one could still talk about any of me surviving. And so on and so forth. We'd make different judgments about this. I'm not saying that there's any strict word answers to these questions, but these are the questions we're asking when we think about what's erm accidental and what's essential to someone. The claim that's being made here is that no one 's body is at all essential to them. Erm, I'm perfectly comfortable that any bit of my fingernail is completely accidental to me, that I can lose it without losing my arm, but the finger is rather stronger. There's nothing about me that erm, excuse me, there's nothing about my body that is essential to me, nothing about my body that individuates me and that's why erm I take it one might think that erm I could actually be changed into a different body, so. Right, any time you read a story, whether it be religious or science fiction, or whatever, in which somebody is taken out of one body and put into another body erm and the story goes, and then was turned into a pig, or whatever, erm, presumably that author has it in mind that you can still identify , that same guy, first in one body and then in the body of a pig. That author presumably thinks that being in a human body is not essential to . You can agree with that, or disagree with that or whatever, but that's part of the defence being made here by erm . This is no part of our true self. Yeah? This, I was just gonna say, this sounds remarkably like the origins of Well, erm, I don't I don't know whether he got it from here, or from another source, but it's very strikingly similar. That the, that the erm, right, erm, you can go back a fair ways earlier and already find people thinking that you can be transported from one body to another, or even from one species to another. Transmigration. Right, right. There's a story about er Pythagoras which is actually the earliest and strongest evidence that the historical Pythagoras actually believed in , changing erm dating from the five twenties or so. It's a bit of poetry by the poet in which he er says that Pythagoras once saw a puppy being beaten and said er, don't beat that puppy, that's a good friend of mine, I recognize his voice. Erm, and so I think that even at that early age, er in the five twenties or earlier, somebody already there is saying we can track personal identity throughout change of not only body but change of species, erm, with these. And the same picture or a similar picture has as well Continuing that theme, would it not be right to say though that Plato only gave to come back into human form to those people such as philosophers and that most other people would come back as some other form. doesn't actually say is not over worried about the body. but the state of, of the soul, the personality, wouldn't change Hmm, right He doesn't really actually, does he? He doesn't actually discuss the body as individuality. I think he's discussing our character and our personality rather than our body. Would you not? I mean I don't know. I mean, I get that impression. He doesn't, he's not concerned about the individuality of the body but concerned about the surv in individuality of our personality as it was before we ca we went on this journey to the one. Am I right? I dunno. Am I? Yes, right. And the body is completely trivial. It's no more than a change of clothing. It, it just doesn't tell you anything interesting about the person, that very, that very same person. Yeah, I agree with all of that. I don't know, I, I When we tell them in the , what we say is that erm that very same person came back as a fox, or you know, that very same person came back as er you know ge goose or whatever animal it might be. That is, even in a different body, in a different species, we can still say that person, that soul. And that's because Plato would be locating the individuation in the soul and not in the body. Erm, soul, as you'll recollect, stands in this funny relation erm between body and and when we get up to intellect we're actually transcending the soul as well. D d this is ever so important. I mean, do you think that perhaps is, is more advanced than Plato, because Plato on this incredible myth of his of going on this journey where ordinary people's view of the form wasn't very good so they would come back in an inf perhaps in an inferior form, but I get the feeling that with we have the opportunity of seeing something that is going to improve us anyway, that we've all got an equal chance of some kind of improvement. Different to the Platonic myth of the journey across the universe like in . It seems to me an advancement. Am I right? I mean I sense that it is. I sense that it is an improvement? It seems to me we're also coming across some sort of Eastern influence here as well. It could be but I think that the question is asking is, in Plato's view, do each of us have an equal chance of performing this transcendence, or in view do we each have an equal chance of performing this transcendence? I, I don't know the answer to that offhand, but it's, I'm inclined to think that erm at least by the time of the Republic there are things that some people are more naturally predisposed towards philosophy and other people are less naturally predisposed towards philosophy. I am also inclined to imagine that would say something like that. Now, he does think that the one and the mind is present to every one of us, erm, but I also take it that erm he er thought that he himself,had been able to ascend to the one er four times in the course of his life and that he also thought that some of his students were of better contemplation than others and erm so he may also have thought as Plato did, that some people are more inclined towards philosophy than others. Erm would have thought that the cow down the road had the same chance of getting to the one that he had. You know, I just don't know. In some way the one is in both of them equally. Yeah Of course, the one is also in this piece of chalk too. I mean, the one is just , so it may not be any great compliment to say that the cow has an equal chance erm but, but I, I actually don't know the answer to that one, whether thought that Apart from the fact that I mean, aren't we actually looking at something similar to erm erm here, in that most of these things were organized, as far as I can work out,was the one that organized all these lectures into but they were originally lectures. Yeah, I don't know, how might that affect what we are? Well, in that we're, I'm just, I'm just bringing up a point that yes he, he, it seems that he could well say something like well, the cow herder or the shepherd down the road has got as much of the right as anybody else. The difference is that the cow, the cow herder or the shepherd is not particularly interested in consciously realizing that, whereas it seems to me that what you're saying is that he is. That pl that he is in Yes. Erm, and that, this is a sort of a difference between The cow herder and Yes, and also assume thereby the difference between a cow herder, and a student of his or whatever Yeah were right then that might push us back towards the Platonic view, that some people are more . I'd like to get back to what was saying about how it's soul that really characterizes us, it's soul that carries out individuality, and, and not the body. I mean that does have a lot of resonance for all of us. feel that erm I could have been the same person erm with lots of different changes to my body. I could have had erm brown eyes instead of blue, I could have been taller or shorter, I could have been lots of different erm bodily arrangements erm and still be me, just be the same er person. One may say that, one may say well it's really your soul or your character that makes you who you are. What kinds of features are we pointing to there? Erm, for instance, suppose that I think that one of the things that er makes me who I am is erm that I have a good head for numbers. Erm, not that that's true. Erm, but someone else might think this erm about themselves. Then would having a good head for numbers be the sort of thing that would individuate them at the level of their soul? Would that be the sort of thing that? Or perhaps Looking for truths. I mean, mathematicians are looking for truths, aren't they, in a way? So, so being desirous of the truth would be the sort of thing that would Yeah distinguish one person from another? I'd have thought so. A good memory or a bad memory would be, oh sorry I see, so memory of your personal life history. Yeah, that does Sure, it does seem that memory has a role in it. And yet it also seems that er I, I can also make this statement. Erm, here is a complete list of the contents of my memory right now. Erm,a slightly different set of things that happened to me. Then the contents of my memory would be this rather than this. Erm, I wouldn't er remember having erm broken my arm on this date erm I remember rather having broken my leg on this date. Erm, so the contents of my memory would differ and yet that doesn't seem yet to individuate me from someone else. Erm, it's true that in general we do have different memories than other people do er but it doesn't seem to be fully individuating in that any change in the contents of the memory would produce a change in . But yeah, certainly that's one of the things that we think, is that our, er it's our memory of our own historical life events is part of what makes us who we are. Erm, another reason why I can't give you the whole story of course is because then there'd be no reason to take this baby rather than this baby at the hospital, you know,so their histories are exactly identical, I E nil, erm, nothing individuates them on that account. Erm, one reason why can't help himself to that is because that would be a history of change, that would be a history of the body, and that is not intrinsic to us. That, he seemed to insist, cannot be the locust of our individuation. Erm, can we link it up to any earlier pattern? I'm thinking now in particular of Plato's four so if that particular inclination to be, I dunno, poetical or philosopher, then that would be a kind of individuation of us. Yeah so, so perhaps the things that, the things that erm seem to us more important than your bodily configuration, whether I have blue eyes or brown eyes, something that's more important seems to be the sorts of desires I have. Do I want the truth, or do I want money? The sorts of capacities that I have. Erm, am I good at this or am I good at that? Erm, perhaps my tastes. Erm, there's some plasticity to all these things, right? I take it that I don't like modern art and yet I can imagine that while being the same person that I am I might have liked modern art. That's not er incomprehensible, it wouldn't involve a complete change of personality, well some of it. So, those are the sorts of things I take it that, that er we do think are a more interesting way of individuating people than their bodily . And I'm sure that that's part of why sounds pretty good when he's saying that it's not the body that makes us who we are, it's not the body that matters. Erm,to the kind of soul that I have right now erm, drag that out of my body erm, make sure that it's the same soul that I started with, drop it into some other body and you'll still be able to tell the story that I, still me, am now in a different body. Erm, that seems like the right sort of thing to say. What though if we wanted to make a further move of abstraction? What if we wanted to say that our true self was not even our desires or inclinations or capacities? Because our true self isn't the soul, that's not our true self either. That's a mere er . Our true self is mind. Erm, or at least mind is our truer self. The sorts of things I happen to like, the sorts of things I happen to be good at or bad at. Those really are not any part of my true self either,tells us. Erm, my true self is merely the part that does intellectual contemplation. Erm, so that I apparently would be still me even if I had completely different desires, tastes, er preferences er so on and so forth. Now it's gonna be a, a bit harder to hang on to the thought here. Erm, can I imagine erm two abstracted intellects, each of them doing geometrical proofs and say about the two of them is they go through the group of er the infinity of prime numbers, each of them is working that through. Can I say about them er now that one, that is clearly Fred, erm, you know just look at the way he does that proof, erm, oh well now, that one, that's clearly Ned, erm that's the way Ned does a proof. Erm, you know people do say these things about computer codes. I've heard people say that erm er software writers have certain individual styles. You can sometimes you know tell one person writes software in this way and another They used to have that in, in er when they put some people's hands, right right right. Yeah, same thought. And yet erm what er what seems to have be going against that is that erm at least so far as is concerned, the proof is any theorem is a unique pathway. Erm there are not too often proofs for any theorem. There's a proof because so if two people were contemplating the proof of the infinity of primes they wouldn't be going about it in different ways, erm, if they're contemplating the proof, they'd be contemplating exactly the same steps in the same order. It's getting rather hard to think about what it is that lets me see them as distinct individuals if all that they're doing are What happens if one of them's looking at it from a viewpoint and the other one's looking at it from a viewpoint? Would that not?same kind of theorem Okay, or for instance erm I could write up the theory, excuse me, I could write up the proof of the infinity of primes for a variety of reasons. I might be teaching you some er number theory, or I might be teaching you the structure of number theory. I might be saying, look, it doesn't matter what proof I choose but you know, here is an interesting example of it. Or I might be saying, here's an example of a derivation. Or I might be saying, here's the sort of silly thing I was taught when I was at kindergarten. Erm, and what and the these er for a different reason erm. I guess my inclination would be to say that there's only one of those in which we are actually doing the proof. There's only actually one of those which we're thinking about the proof as a proof. But what I'm saying is that there may only be one proof sense is what we as individuals derive from that proof. It somehow becomes coloured into Right now, so that's where we need to get, that's what we need to push for. How can we think about something colouring our that doesn't have anything to do with our bodies, nothing to do with our history, nothing to do with a particular that we've gone through, nothing to do with our soul faculties. Erm, some coloration that would make it still ours. Terrific. Say something completely different. Well no, but and I were just thinking well why can't it just be all things together that make us what we are and when you're trying to find a single thing, the only single thing is the one, which is the unity and then there's no differentiation but I don't think that, that we are, we are our body as well and that then can affect the soul you know, if you, if you've got a big nose and all your life people stare at you you're gonna, you're not going to be unaffected by it. Sure So, I don't know. But then when you do peel them away, whether you can have a potentiality, like the when talked about he talked about either side of his face timeless void that you had to see the limit of it so that you could have erm that that I was in this body and there's something about this body that I'm going to go back into the body and then that could differentiate perhaps. Erm, otherwise I just think it's very tricky when you, when you, when you try and take away the layers that you're going to just end up with the one that you can't talk about anyway. Mhm, yeah, I think, I actually think you've made an excellent methodological point about philosophy in general. That is erm whenever people look for an analysis of something, here I've been looking for an analysis of individuation, there's a tendency to consider candidate analyses one by one, singulatum. Erm, it does this er by individuation? Erm, well no. Well, let me throw that aside. Erm, does this suffice for individuation? No, well, toss that aside. And your point, which I think is very important, is erm maybe this is an analysis that has to be given erm by a multiplicity of necessary conditions, none of which is singularly sufficient, but all of which are jointly necessary and sufficial . So erm, for instance, if I were to say, gee what is the essence of balm cake? Erm, is it flour? Er, no, we'll toss that aside. Is it eggs? No, can't be eggs, throw those out. Er, you know, go through all the ingredient. Gosh, balm cake doesn't have any essence at all, you know, erm that'll be astonishing finding is, whereas your point is, look it might just be some of all these things in some proportion or some ratio. Right but then I suppose that you could say that it's the idea of the balm cake which it would be on the level of the, in, in intellect Mhm mhm so the essence of balm cake so it's alright to go from the body to intellect, maybe that is alright, if you just forget the body. But then it's the per it's the, if you're going to the union with the one, it's that coming back I take it that our explanation, you and I who are the children of the children of Freud, do think that our body erm adds a great contribution to our individuation? That brief story you told about how my physical appearance might affect my social interactions and my social interactions might affect my psychic make up. Erm, that sounds very persuasive to all of us nowadays and I fully believe it, that part of what makes me me is in fact er the fact that I'm this shape and this size Yeah, yeah except that that is just nothing in the end. That in the end it doesn't make, it doesn't mean anything. Well as far as thinks, it sure doesn't that's the big difference between us right? No,. I mean, I mean, lots of different pupils would say that it doesn't mean anything in the end because erm you know, what are we here for, what can we do, you know, and like why you know, I mean I, I'm sure it doesn't mean very much. In fact this is what Socrates is going when he's asked, well what do you want us to do with your body, he said you can do what you like, I won't be in it anyway. Right,r right, mhm mhm I think, I think it's important to remember what said about the body. I think, I mean, he makes the emphasis here that the body is not any more than a tool Ya, that's right and I think, you know, I mean, it's not how we feel, we're trying to understand what is saying to us And that's a real that's a real deep difference, that we're inclined to suppose that the body does have some role in individuation and clearly, as you're pointing out, doesn't. That is, when you ask erm er who are we, is any part of what we are made up by the body, the answer's quite straightforwardly no, we er already identified use the body, this other thing. Erm, the body is something else from us and we are the things erm not that are made up of our body but that merely use our body. Erm, popping out of your body is no different I think in from erm driving along in your car and er turning off and hopping out of the car. You know, you're not using that particular tool any more and you hop out of it and walk away. Erm, the body's rather like that I suppose. It makes it quite clear that we should be in charge of the tool. Sure, no problem there. You certainly don't want your tools running you, but the, the crucial is that the tool is a completely separate thing from us. When I try to give up who I am erm none of who I am has to do with this external er additional tool. Yeah ? Erm, if you're trying to individuate intellects, erm, rather than take a proof Mhm take an argument or a problem. I mean, no two philosophers would give you a sort of similar approach, would they? Right, right, yeah, no it's a very I mean, you can a completely different viewpoint Right, right. Erm, but I think that we also think this is in an in the state of philosophy nowadays. That is one of the reasons why I think that man is in much better shape than I think philosophy's in. Because, if I go to two different mathematicians and I say erm, can you work these sums for me? Generally and for the most part they'll come up with the same sum at the end of the day and if I go to two different philosophers and say, erm can you tell me about free will? Er, generally and for the most part and for the most part at the end of the day they'll come up with completely irrelevant er things . Erm and Isn't this just the difference between a theorem and concepts? Could be, but I guess my, my thought was that I mean, why do we need two mathematicians? We obviously need more philosophers. I guess my thought was that, was that in view that there we were doing philosophy the more convergence there would be if we really knew what we were about as philosophers. We would not be disagreeing with one another any more. Erm, and that er what causes erm David Lewis to tell the sorts of stories about he tells is this kind of hideous accident that happened to him when he was three years old and then was exaggerated by his having the beard that he does. Erm, and what causes erm you know, so tells is another series of accidents that, that are completely at the level of, of historical and bodily erm . Erm, if er, if they had been, erm,all along they would be telling the same story as , if they really could do their in intellectualizing properly But if you're not trying to That,th so that's what you need to get a hold of, that's when you need to think, how can we cash that out, how can we give that some content? Does the idea of there being a colouring to I, I don't wanna stray that much erm from the text we've got but there is some text that has written, namely the one on intelligible beauty Mhm mhm where he seems to indicate that erm, for example, he says in there that he, he ascends to the intelligible heaven, wherever that is , I assume intellect. Erm and he says there all things are in all things but each is coloured according to the host. Their host, I suspect. So, in other words The one Well, or the individual There You're talking about a group of individual things Right, we'd have to take a look at that cos I suspect that if he says each is coloured by the host No no no no, by the host in which the things are. He's talking about a multitude Mhm mhm each the same sort of components, the same components are each colour say in a red individual they'd all be pinky red colours and in a blue individual they'd all be a blue colour But there is this thing that all of the forms are in the intellect and all of the forms ah are in the intellect and all of the forms do somehow weave together into some sort of unitary thing. There's some sort of er unity and multiplicity at the level intellect, erm The, the point I'm raising with this is that he does seem, in that particular piece, he does quite strongly, to me anyway, that that individuation is still very strong Sorry, I thought you said that each of them was in all the rest of them and each of them was coloured by the host. No no no no, it was the other way round. Rather like the sort of, there, there are various glasses full of different marbles Is this something we could look up cos, cos Yeah, it's intelli it's the one on individual . I can't remember what the erm, is it one six? Yeah, it's really quite an amazing One six, is it? Yeah, great. Erm, which, which it's quite an amazing er dialogue I wonder if I have er the, the, the analogies he uses, he is using there, he says that the sun the moon and the stars are all there Aha and in each of the stars are all the sun the moon and the stars Mhm mhm but, each star contains the sun the moon and the stars according to its own coloration of them. Right, sorry, one six is on beauty and five eight is on intelligible beauty. Which one of those? It would be five eight. Probably five eight rather than cos yeah I erm okay see erm right right right erm, so the thing that I would be looking for, if I could find this, would be what's doing the colouring and how, how does that work? That is, is the colour rising up from underneath in an individuating way, or is it a light cast from down er from on top by the one, which then couldn't individuate them with respect to people for instance. It would be, as it were, a diffused light. Erm, so that's just a question to ask when you next come to erm this passage. Er, if I can't find it right now, which Yeah, the other phrase he uses is something like all is in each Yeah and each is in the all Oh sure So all orange in I assume the one but also the one is in all in each of the Even at the level of forms they're all in each Even at the level of forms yeah, yeah. This is, this notion of they're all being woven together. Erm in Plato talks about the , the weaving together of forms and it says erm er it's it's er through the weaving together of forms that reason arises in us and but then again this is the level of as well so I think that this is the, the origin of this notion that all the forms are in each, they're all woven together somehow. Erm, but erm will that help us? Think about two people's abstract contemplation would still be the contemplation of two different people. Erm, and then, once we sort that all out, what will we say again at the level of the one? Erm, that is, how can we make sure that erm Plato, or Socrates, doesn't descend to this level and then ascend to the one, as everyone else is, erm and then having got up this side somehow come down this? Erm what, when one is at the level of the one, what makes you who you are? How can you guarantee that you will be restored to your proper un-self? How can you trap that individual through their ascent and descent?that is. Erm well I mean he seems to be implicating somehow here that the more that you go up to soul and intellect to the one, the more you properly become your true self. Therefore, yourself, your individuality, is somehow enhanced by this Yes, there's no doubt he says all that, right and, and that really would lead to the of self not of detriment of self Yes, there's no doubt that that's exactly what he thinks and yes, well, I don't see what the problem is, I mean you become properly yourself in that case, so what's the problem? Perhaps this is a limited individual problem. I can't make any sense of what he's saying because it seems to me that erm our common and everyday and perhaps very deficient notion of individuation is, what makes me different from the rest of you? Okay so, so look at two individuals in two different ways. Take a pencil X and say, what is it that makes X a separate individual from Y, okay?that'd be a different thing. Now take a and say, what is it that allows me to say that the individual X in this s erm cell of the film is the same individual X as in this cell of the film. That is, what is the underlying subject of change? Think of those as the two deep questions about individuation. How can you tell X from Y and how can you tell that X is still X, that it's still the same thing it was? When we think about those questions of individ individuation in our normal affairs, the best we can do is to say that what individuates us and also what makes us the same person through changes over time, is a great medley of factors, some of which are bodily, some of which involve our souls Yeah, but he would say that you can't do it in terms of space and time. He certainly would, but what in heaven's name is he talking about? If it's some notion of individuation which has nothing to do with the body, nothing to do with the soul and nothing to do, ultimately, with the intellect either. Yeah, that's why it's an . I mean th this is, this is exactly what was saying, he owes us more of an account. Erm, he has stripped away from these true selves everything that we normally think of as institute of, of a self. In a sense and a I'm not sure if it's only in a sense, that, that when we talk now of say aren't we trying to approach the same ? Erm, could be Well I mean, if we're talking about sort of and they're looking for a sense of identity of whatever it is that they're having of That is I think that when I refer to and when I refer to I am referring to the same thing Yeah and that each remain the same thing although being described by a variety of different er descriptions. Er, just as I think that erm a variety of descriptions can pick out me. Erm, the only person in the room standing, er the only person in the room holding a book, erm you know, the, the, the er sole American in the room. Lots of different descriptions always pick out the same me. Erm, and all of which, in that case, seem to me completely and have nothing really to do with me. That is, I, I take it would still be me even if I were seated, I would still be me even if I weren't holding a book, possibly I'd still be me even if I weren't American. Chances are In all possible worlds you'd still be you Nevertheless, right, there seems to be something that, that, that survives all of those changes er that we can talk about and still me. I mean, it does seem on page three nine really what we're talking about, trying to get some sense into that Right right Er, I dunno what you think but I mean it does state there, it's quite interesting if one reads it out Mhm mhm what we're trying to address now definitely, this is the crux. that is the crux of the whole of that lecture really number nine Yes, yes, I agree, I agree, right so I don't know how to interpret that. I mean, you can understand it, but then you get his, but now another man wishes to exist Yes you see, I mean, how can you interpret that? I don't know, I don't know, although I ought to warn you that another way of interpreting the Greek would be, but now a man wishes to be another approached that man. Erm,you could take the as one unit and say, but now a man, wishing to be another, approached that man, and when he found us, for we were not outside the all, he wound himself round us and attached himself to that man who was then each one of us. That man, okay, singular, who was then each one of us, plural, erm erm, I take it that, that erm one of the things that we could conclude from this entire discussion is that our notion of selfhood erm which is our modern notion of selfhood, deeply bound up with erm personal history, you know, Locke's erm, what is Locke's example? The dashing cavalier, er the, Locke tells a story about someone who in their youth was a k a cavalry officer erm and how this person in later life, their memory of being a cavally off cavalry officer is part of what individuates them. Erm, so in individuation has lots to do with physical attributes, lots to do with personal history and memory, lots to do with psychic characteristics such as desires, capacities, abilities, preferences, tastes and so on and so forth. Maybe what we should say at the end of the day is erm just isn't talking about that, he's on about a completely different subject and we really shouldn't erm we shouldn't beat over the head for having a bad theory of the self. Maybe he just doesn't, you know, he doesn't wanna talk about the self. Maybe he's talking about it all. Maybe he's under a different notion. Erm, er he might be doing a very good job of explaining some other notion, not the notion of a self or an individual, but er something else. Erm, maybe that would be the more fair thing to say at the end of the day. Erm Well, when she, when it was, but now another man wishing to exist approaches that man, did she say that man was the intellect? It's tough, I don't know erm take, take a look about four lines above. Now even if or erm er let's start from the top. But we, who are we? Are we, two choices, that which draws nearer and comes to be in time, that's the first choice. No, even before this coming to be er came to be we were there and we were men who were different and some of us were even gods and we were pure souls and intellects. Okay, so apparently that original we had something to do with intellects united with the whole of reality. Reality's a bad translation. United with the whole of being. Remember being is a level of intellect, whereas the one is above being. So it says united with the whole of reality, that means at the level of intellect, being. What are we t where are we going to face reality then? being or intellect is, is reality. Reality is at the level of, of er intellect. Erm, we were pure souls and intellect united with the whole of being. We were parts of the intelligible. Not marked off, or cut off, but belonging to the whole. Erm, I should also say that bit about some of us were even gods, erm that also is erm there are some options there on translation erm you could also say men who were different and particular, that is we were and erm particular humans and we were gods. That would be to say not some of us were gods but all of us were gods. Erm so that's another possibility. Er men who were different and particular and gods. Erm, so we were pure souls and we were intellects, united with the whole of being, I E the forms. We were parts of the intelligible, not marked off or cut off, but belonging to the whole. Er I take it to the whole of reality er or being Not, not, not the one? Er, not if the Not embraced in the one? er, if the whole there in the sixth line refers back to the whole of being in the fourth line then it would be erm not the one but intellect. Erm but now another man erm wishing to exist or perhaps, but not a man wishing to be other erm approached them er and when he found us, for we were not outside the all Not outside the all? Mhm mhm, although I take it that we're in fact What does he mean by the all? Not the one? In other words, is that another way of saying the one? I don't think so because What does he mean by the all then? Could be again the level of intellect erm Yes erm because I, you might er It's the interchangeableness of this, these words that makes it difficult to understand Terribly difficult yeah, it's just, it's just miserable stuff erm to try to make sense of. Erm, another er, the translator makes the comment on this particular , that in no other is as casual about not distinguishing the three highest hypotheses. He doesn't really seem to be very careful about distinguishing intellect from the one and, and so forth, doesn't really, he's not, he's not really focusing on that difference and so seems to let it lapse in a less than useful way. Erm He says, he woun he wound himself round us, now who's he referring to he? It's this other man apparently. Erm the intellectual man, the intellectual, we're talking about, we're not talking about a man in body, we're talking about intellect? Yeah, although the one who, who wraps himself around might be a bodily man. Do come in. Erm erm yes it's just a desperately difficult passage. Yeah, no, no it's tough stuff. Yes indeed. Well, what worked well? Er, giving people specific jobs, like, combining one . Right, how did you do yours? Your group? Well we decided, decided what we w , what the object was, and then, we got into a position that certain cards so, the cards were split between u , the two of us, so we aimed it in different directions. So you divided into two teams? Yes, and then we decided to pick them up, played back . Right, okay, anybody else can add anything that they felt worked well? We decided to dip into , and pick one each. yes, the same, the same thing there. What went badly? I got one from Mars I think. Then I went back in and did it again. What you made, made a mistake. In er,, you know, we only reversed when we got to the bottom of that last machine, and why had the guy back, erm, went over it, and go through it again, luckily it was only three high. So you had , would anybody of, if they were going to do it again, do it differently? No, oh yes, nick all the cards and played myself on the tune Yes, When we did all work together, all the different pieces worked together, and you could just have a card each and you could have just done it that way. But when you've got forty three , they'll just taking ground anywhere. Could you be fighting basically to see what was what. If you can relate back to branches, everybody was just running around, everybody's had a specific task to do, you were just running round like a , We could have just collected all the cards up, put them in the middle of the car park and all just stood over them . It worked quite well, Speak for yourself, I know I have to look at it, I I noticed, er, I felt three of the groups had somebody centrally who, who was being fed information all the time. I mean, er, in terms of planning what, what did you say at the beginning? What did you, what did your group talk about at the very beginning? Whether all the cards were running off. The changes, we split up so Yes we did, we sort of divided the team up Good idea So what, what did he ? , three cards each, right so we chose three to look at. Yes, so you divided it up like that And what, what was your idea Jane for your team? Because the, there's two different ones to do, so we split it and two did one, and the other two did the other. So you wasn't like four, five year old in a bed, trying to work it out. It just seemed pointless to do, do what all the, the way down the morning and then after do all the way down the other end . Mm, did anybody do one and then do the next one? We did Yes, did you find that hindered you at all? No I can't say we was hindered through the , We came, we came first, excuse me That why our team did the same as you. Ou , Ou, Our system worked okay for us. We were finished about five minutes before We didn't bother about it much, we've had one member as being two or three of the latest. Right. To share our information. So it was kind of energy conservation, yes It's space more than anything. Alright, well thank you very much for doing that. I hope that got us through the little post-lunch siesta period, erm, we're going to do another er, time management game now which will take about half an hour, and I need to split you up once again into groups, erm, okay. Into three groups of six, so if we have, one, two three, one, two, three, one, two three, one, two, three, one, two, three, one, two, three. So we're going to do this exercise within this room and we'll need to rearrange the tables, so I suggest that each group as having one table or two tables, put it in a square to work around. So if you could now get together with your people, all the ones together, all the twos together and all the threes together and rearrange the tables in an area of the room where you'd like to work. , Ones? Twos? Twos? Twos? Threes? Any more threes? Threes? What are you? Three. Right, What you're in your group, if within each group you could elect between you one, a manager and two, an observer. Thank you class, have you all decided on your managers and observers. Yes If I could have all the managers and all the observers, please. If you could come out, and out of the room with me. , The erm, shapes, did you ever have to do that with the thingy in the middle? Erm. You've got er, a sh , a T, we knew it was a T, but it could turn to different shapes, No I didn't do that one And then you have to explain it to the person opposite you, or a long distance phone call, and say how you,, and this, because there was a colour done what I've said, he said my colour's completely different, and you've propose all those colour bits, but They're all different. The object of that was don't assume that people have got a sign for , you know. The beauty of having to describe a shape. , And as they're describing it, you had to draw it. So you had to draw it as they describe it. You're not supposed to be reading the news. ,, Do you know if the answers are in there. Did anybody meet that famous , last night about the, how you find out about people ? I think I told Lisa again. It's one of these assertion things Aye, which thing's that? What, what is the name of that? Which one then? It was body language wasn't it? Aye, it wasn't particular clear though. No What's that? , What did Pete say? It's supposed to be a session. So what, what's that supposed to do, if you brush hair it'll indicate to the, the male kind er, that you're interested and that you wouldn't mind getting in touch with them. It's not that you haven't got , or a black skirt or something. , it's a love story , or something. If all he wants is to hitchhikers doesn't he? I know he does. In fact, this Because apparently we've all got to avoid eye contact either that right, or facial expression. I'm going to use it the night before, if you've a minute And all , don't believe it. Yes That's two there isn't it? Yes I've got, they're reading about I. The manager, what's the manager going to do, do you think? Give directions. And the observer's just going to watch the group as a whole because she's not anybody to, to . How much longer do you think? . How about sitting here Deena? Unsure, don't know. Do you think we're going somewhere this week? Nip up then because she probably . Perhaps they're doing pass the parcel like . You know that Piper Alpha thing? No , late at night,, they've got the boat, and the tape, they're both out on tape and video, and basically you have to go back, as soon as the boat comes through docks the next person picks it up and goes, so you've got very little time to pick up information , and all the time you can't go in, and the clock's going , and the clock's going and you switch , and they said it was , next to you, they said it such a Can you buy that then? Yes, it's about twenty pounds but it's X rated. Are we going to prepared to start that then, I'll say we started, I make it, I make it dead on twenty five to now, but if we go by that clock, and if everybody goes by that one it's probably easier, because that's between twenty five to, so if we make it about eighteen minutes past. No but if it's like, not been part of Alright, so do you want to start now. Right as you know I'm the head of a major advertising company. We've been approached by er, the local county who wish to er, make up some radio from the er agency. , surprise, surprise. Okay. What, in order to decide whether they're going to give us the contract what they have asked us to do is prepare a thirty minute radio, sorry thirty second radio presentation and we will re , record for them and they will hear, which we want to emphasise based on how good that was whether they want to take the contract out with us. Okay, is everybody clear on that? Here's the , to go on. It can be anything real or imaginary. The only precondition we've got on that , is that it's got to be thirty seconds long, we can use whatever sound effects we like, we really, to begin with, we have got to have scripts, everybody here takes part in it has got to have a script first, Yes, now what I'm saying is I mean there's going to be, there's four of us, they're five of us here, taking part in the exercise, yes? So if four of us were to work on it as a group , Two of yous do the script together Right so are we, are we going to, do the script, is one person going to read it all out, or are we going to go round and? Let the manager decide. Fair enough, I shall read out the script . Yes, yes, maybe. So if we three start into that . National Children's Homes,, yes, founded in eighteen sixty nine, C H, children's health, and associated with children's charities, we work with, among others children with disabilities, sexually abused children, homeless young people,. Throughout England there are projects nationwide, they need practical support, counselling, and specialist treatment, but above all there are sixteen thousand children a year that hope for a better future. That's a better right, what I would suggest, is somebody take , what I was going to say is if you time me reading this, okay we get an idea of how long exactly we need to make . Founded in eighteen sixty nine, N C H , is Britain's second largest children's charity. We work with among others, children with disabilities, sexually abused children, homeless young people, and . Through our two hundred projects nationwide we give practical support, counselling, and specialist treatment, but above all we give sixteen thousand children a year the hope for a better future. Please support us in our year, N C H, a charity for children . What, what ideas are need getting across, how, what, what the charity does, how the er, how the charity does it, and how we can help. That's three priorities in that order. So I think first of all we need to, need to introduce what the charity is and who, who they're going to be benefitting. I think we'll along with a . Well we don't have an idea on this. No. What does it say in the advert? You said it Who we worked for, so that you introduce the charity, who we work for erm, Right, well what did that, question one what charity d , what the charity does right. Yes, okay, anything like that, caring, caring for children, helping children Not really no,so what we're doing now, we don't want to get too carried away with one, one title, we've got to try and find things to say how we're going to achieve it. We, we've got the how you can help section here, but we've got nothing at all about what the charity does and how it does it, yes we need some appropriate words for getting the idea that they're helping children. yes, then there's the , yes, what that says, at the top, so you can announce what the aim of the campaign is. Can we get help , for the best possible start, we want , something like that, so we're saying, help us to do this, that's how we're getting across the idea they're erm, how they're going about it. Erm, you could say worse, I suppose you could cheat, but erm, Okay I want,, research, help us, erm, help erm, help us give something like that, help us give a best possible start to them, help us give them, to help us, to them, Okay time is up. You can stop now please. Okay then, , , and all the jokes and chuck all your scraps away first. Where's the bin? Are you alright there? Right so what we'll do first of all is get you to your results, and then as each end , we'll get the observers to make their comments. So who wants to go first? I think we'll go first if you like. Yes,, you may as well stay there if you like or you can come down or , Set time. I am I am Julias Denton for homes for the children's charity. Our aim is to build one hundred new homes for our homeless children. Children are all our responsibilities, please support the children's, The kids, , home,. Right, very good, thank you. Phil, you're next. Okay. Go on then. End of Side One. , Shall I bring it down here then, bring it over to there and Yesterday, ten thousand children were killed. Richard Branson saved us over the boredom. Just to survive we need your cash today. Our trip is vital for charity. Please support us on the hot-line , in hope. Mm, thank you, it's very nice. Oh, I'm not too sure, We're the National Children's Home, Action for Children. There is way you can help improve research, we need to give the best possible start to kids. If you care to help rescue children with disabilities and teenagers who suffer abuse we want you to say yes, and to help get eight hundred million pounds Phone now on , with your credit card or visa, or contact your nearest National Westminster Bank. Very good. yes, thank you very much. , They were all very good. Okay then, which observer wants to observe or come out with I don't mind. Okay then, Hannah, what, what happened in your group? Right, do you want me to go through every point? Well erm, Erm, we had a , A couple of tears and so on Yes, go through the first five minutes, there were all different tasks, erm, at first, the girls were making up a basic jingle that would be about thirty seconds, and everyone else was looking through to see what words they should use. And Tracy had already, no, they'd all decided what charity it'd be, Tracy asked what they suggested, so she's democratic. Erm, they all suggested that it should be something like famine. And then they started looking for words that might be relevant so that's quite good. Erm,they put the bit of paper in the middle with the suggestion type of thing that they were , and then they all looked for words, erm,then Ian and Deborah arranged the words on the paper to start ar , rearranging the jingle so that the words that they had, they used their resources like that, and anything else. Tracy was keeping an eye on the time all the time, they didn't rehearse it , none at all. Was that because of lack of time? Yes. At first they were very calm and at the end, at the end there was a big panic that they was, they were all talking over each other, there was no control, you know, it was a bit rushed at the end, but, that wasn't because it was bad planning, it was just they were panicked at the end. It was more difficult than we thought. They should have had more definite targets, because it was a bit, everyone, at one point everyone was doing the same thing,, through the words which Why was that? Pardon? Why was that, was that because it ? Because it, it's terrifying looking at a blank piece of paper when we needed ways to start the comment. yes So we had to get some ways to try and get something down. They all had an input, and Tracy kept them a lot. Erm, as I say, she's like, she's very democratic, and she's always asking them what they felt how, how they felt they should tackle it, I mean They hadn't decided what the message should be Overall, if you had to comment, how do you think it went? It was good, apart from the end. And then there was panic because there was no time in the end. Thank you very much that group. Next group,, okay, Erm, I came down and explained what the nature was, what you wanted to be done, you didn't really explain why and how important that our was, which I felt , that he said what he needing doing, he said what resources he had, and he said that, he didn't really set tasks erm, but he did ask them what they thought they should do you know. Erm, That's good. Sorry? That's what I was going to say. Yes, you set tasks, but by erm, Dave, not by Ian. Erm, at the start it was a bit higgledy-piggly, they didn't really know what they was doing, I felt anyway. And they didn't really decide on what the message was going to be, erm, they just decided to start checking lines, getting words out on what the charity was going to be, they split that up quite well. Erm, I felt that that Tony was getting a bit frustrated It was There was no Yes, I stopped, like. There was no teamwork really to start with. He was getting a bit frustrated, they didn't really know what they were supposed to be doing. Towards the end it got better though, and they got the time right, we timed it towards the end and the wording was right, so it got better towards the end. Okay Erm,yes, and that was it really, at first the , and then it went through, and it was alright at the end. So it was Yes, it was quite bad to start with, quite poor teamwork, and there was no That's what, that's how I felt was happening. We were given tasks, but then the tasks had been given to certain people like yourself, starting to want to do the other things, that other people were doing, and then everybody wanted to do instead of doing the tasks that they were set. Yes, that's what I mean. There was quite a lot pressure and half the team weren't listening to what Ian was saying at that so Alright so, there was a bit of competition between Nobody , at the end When we asked for a script from that side from the beginning, it didn't come. Well no because we hadn't , us, given us any ideas, towards the end it got better, and they were. Towards the end it got better and they worked, it was a bad start, but it got better towards the end. And we actually got all the words out. We got the words up there and timed it right and everything and then a rehearsal was done. Okay, okay, thank you very much. It was very confusing,key words, when we started using key words and when we asked because something wasn't there, and we consulted the script, we were still cutting words out, but, at, the script was definite, but sort of like, two of them well they had doubts, and like we started cutting words out, and then like, the words that were out . Ian started on the script , there were some use of that to begin with, the key words a lot, maybe got stuck on the piece of paper because Maybe not according to, We're all pulling together. What about your team Terry? I think you, you're Er, right, everybody seemed , and getting it follow it by, erm, the first stage of the planning, erm, did the manager clearly understand the nature of the situation? Erm, I feel that she'd read the brief but hadn't studied it, because she, she went back to half way through, and er, looked at the objectives. Erm, she established the objective, not autocratically, but democratically, erm, there were all sorts, the resources available,what we have, yes, that's not a problem, but the, at the same time, the rest of the group went to establishing the objective, and there was a lot of over-talking by people, and I feel that she didn't control it and say, look this is what we're going to do now. Then we didn't achieve, we're didn't produce a work plan or organiser, we went straight in, people were hacking out bits of papers, you know, it ended up as a big pile of words you know. So,, he took on the task of er, writing the script off his own bat, he wasn't appointed to it, er, but he stuck with that throughout, and erm, he stuck to his objective. Erm, he organised the coordinating, after a while she did actually stop them after five minutes and explain the time situation, er, the final objective were the constraints. There was no really interaction on that on anybody's part. Er, nobody looked at the time which, which did cause a problem. yes, we did You were looking at the time, but it didn't come up, I mean. We did yes, we mentioned it, I mentioned. Yes, you mentioned it a couple of times, put there was no-one really keeping a watch on the clock. Not, not that I saw. Can I? , , there's eleven minutes to go, and literally everyone starts panicking. You know everyone's like , , It says it really doesn't it? , Alright then, moving on, moving totally on. Yes, er. Alternate feedback. Yes, but not on an on-going basis. It happened a couple of times,, the exercise. If puzzled. Okay, well I did try to motivate them, motivate them to make the most of each person's individual skills. Er, people chose what they wanted to do. Erm, I cheated. Shit, look Joe, you speak to her, you sit and talking across her,, she's talking to Sharon, you know that, that's all the way through it Come on,, alright, alright. I love you too. Erm, Come on Gary. Erm, good point, she did er, give them letters and she told other people to contribute, she erm, she at one stage ask everybody what they, what the record was. Er, the main problem was the time constraint. There was five minutes to go, Right. And we're still, you know, fighting about changing the script and what have you. But they, they did come up with the work on the results, and then they, they did get time to plan it. Right. And they rehearsed it as well. Er, although Shirley, she took over the ro , erm, she took the role half way through of down on the floor splitting things up things over, er, the rest of them were cutting out words and what have you, and writing out the script the way they wanted it, and she just stuck them on the floor,, and they changed the script, so in that respect she was They changed the script once Yes, no, I mean It depends how you , , ah no, but you, but you weren't aware of that because you were on the floor, as I was saying five minutes ago. , I don't want all that over here. Erm, I mean, all in all they did, they did get the final result, the scene came together right from the last eleven minutes to achieve the result, but it was just there was a lot of confusion at the beginning of the start. Right, okay, well thanks very much, if you'd like to get tables back , Is there a pair of scissors anywhere? A pair of scissors? yes. Well quite an interesting exercise I think? , I hope you're not , well several interesting things have come out of there, it just shows the sort of thing about working under pressure, and the limited amount of time, erm, the limited amount of planning time for the managers certainly. Erm, if the man , who were the managers? Ian, you were one,, and Tracy, if you could just say a few words. What did you find were the difficulties and how did it go really? Erm, I thought mine, when I came back and I briefed everybody so that they all knew what was going on Yes Erm, then I think it probably had us confused for a while, whilst we were just trying to decide who should do writing and who should do what, but then I decided I'd chose two people, and then we started cutting things out so then that, that went okay then. Erm, then we all just worked at getting pieces out on paper, all that was going fine, and then I assigned two more people to stick all the pieces together and trying to create sentences from it, and I think the only time that I, we lost it was like, right at the end we were like looking for a few words to make our sentences make sense. And so we were panicking a bit, because we were just trying to get there, but apart from that, I think it went okay. Like we, we didn't have any arguments amongst the group, I mean I was, everybody was quite willing to do everything, everybody was helpful, came up with suggestions. So it was okay. Okay, what about you Ian? No, no go on. What did you think, we actually got on very well, I mean I thought we worked quite well together as a team. We did, yes. yes We erm, given that you have to do, okay, I didn't brief them as fully as I could of, and half way through I looked at it again just to make sure I hadn't missed the bottom line that said, you know stand on your head instead in the park, so I just had a little read. And we made within two minutes to sort out what we were going to, or we decided what charity first, then we decided two would decide on the script while the others cut out relevant pieces that we thought might be useful words. And then when the sc , we had a look at the script and we changed it a little bit, and then we all went, they were cutting out words, so we were doing, the first few all three ways, and we'd look and say, okay, so it was a scrambled mess as we all looked through for three words and ended up with , and I got down on the floor, so we knew where we were. And then we changed things like the name because we found somebody's name in all these words, somebody , and we just sellotaped it down, and at the end when we were running out of time, and we did about three times have a look at the time, we did change the script slightly to fit the words that we'd found so we had responsibilities instead of, I don't know what it was, but instead of another words, just because we'd found it. And we just changed it again. But once I think we were, we were going in a mad rush er, each saw his responsibilities for that word, and that'll do, and then we'd say yes, and stuck it here. In terms of managing the time, did you feel it worked quite well? yes, I mean we got the end result, Yes Okay we changed a few words just to fit the words we could find, but yes, we, we had about a minute at the end, we read it through, and yes, it was fine. I thought we worked alright together. Okay. Sorry, can I just make one small comment on that? Pardon? Can I just , You, you did actually, again it's the time thing, yes. Originally you weren't really looking at it, five of you all fell into the same trap, you know, they, they get half way through, and they did have something to do and they did sort of start rushing. , Okay then, let's leave that there, and then talked about that at tea, and you can have a talk about it then. Come on Ian. Well I have to admit, with our group, the first ten minutes or was a little bit disorganised because I felt we, I came in, we set down the objects, I felt we did that well, and we were clear of the timescale from the very beginning. We decided quite soon which charity we were going to go for, and we divided up. I mean, I had Tony to go through and find key words that we knew we were going to need, you know, simple words like the, of, with, a, that sort of thing, that we knew that okay, we wouldn't use immediately, but we'd look, ah there that goes there, and use it straight away. Erm, we set tasks that erm, two people were supposed to be working on the script while two people looked through the paper. Now I think what te , what happened there was we er, we drifted away from setting down sc , er, er, scripts to finding good useful key words and phrases out of the paper that we could then fit into the script, and as it had gone that way, I realised it was working, and didn't see any point in trying to get it back to the way it was originally going, because it was going fine. Erm, we had an example advert early on that we actually read through, for the simple reason of finding how long it was going to take, so we had a target as to how long we needed the advert to be very early on and we could work to that. Erm, we carried on, er, it got better as it went on. Tony wasn't impressed a little bit, but a little, a little gee up and we were away again. Erm, I felt that er, we had plenty of time at the end, I mean we, we tried only three times to get it right, and it was okay, and I felt we worked well as a team in that amount of time. Alright well, generally then I think from hearing what you're saying, erm, some good points, some perhaps things that you'd do differently next time, and then what it obviously says about you is that, you're all managers and you all have different styles, and you possibly do things in different ways. And you've been in a scenario where there's one manager and there's a few people who aren't in a managing role, but you are actually managers , maybe they'd like a little reversal, I mean, I think some good things have come out of that, and possibly things that you'd do better next time. We all achieved the target Yes, you all did really well . Yes, thank you Stephen. Yes, perhaps you'd We all achieved the end result. Everyone's just trying the same situation. And they thought Yes, patches of chaos, possibly in the disorganisation, but you got there in the end. Erm, I think what we'll do now is have a quick cup of tea, a nice friendly, smiley , cup of tea, And then I want you to meet, I want you to be back here by quarter to four. It's called time , it gives you a little space at the top so you can fill in what you feel to be your role, and if you can fill below, all the tasks in respective order that you do in a typical day. Right, so a complete brainstorm, and we'll start again, and we'll come back to those in a little while. We're going to spend the rest of the session on time management. We're going to talk about three methods of managing your time. The first of those is delegation, a much talked about subject. Erm, how many of you delegate? Yes Yes, the vast majority? How do you go about that, and what sort of things do you delegate? I look at all the jobs that's got, that have to be done in the day, right, and look at which ones I should do, and then all the other jobs I just share out between the relevant people. Right, is there any kind of pattern to that, or is it on a daily basis that you do that? No, certain things, certain specific jobs are set to certain people. Such as? That are on-going. One of my, my senior section manager does till results, anything to do with till results, my section manager does scheduling. Another section manager does something else, and they do that every week. Okay, does that, and you find that that works well? Mm, very well. Er, what kind of checks to do have, do you have to keep on that? About once every week I'll check that everything's been done. Well, with the scheduling obviously it's checked every day, but erm, things like till results, I check every week to make sure it's been, if she's been, but she's really good so, so I just have to check up. What they did at a branch on our district erm, again it was just like set up, people were given specific tasks, but at the end of the three month cycle, they'd change some people, er, those people's tasks so that they, so they wouldn't get stagnant, and plus, if one person was off, if you happened to be on holiday, you've got somebody else that can do the job at the standard and not let the standard fall. So you're not just reliant on one person, and if that person's away you're stuck. Anybody else delegate? Delegates? I think everybody does throughout the course of the day without even realising anyway, do they? Certainly, the only go , the only way I run a shift , the way she runs checkouts, is erm, by going, you, it's the same thing every day, you've got to run through everything on the same point order, because you know, you've been doing it, it's got to be done at the same time, like bread the last lot's got to be on by four. Erm, so you, it's one of the second, third things to look at when I, I start at three fifteen, it's the third thing I do. The first thing I do is check the stocks, followed by date returns and er, you know, erm, get that done,out of the way, and start looking at the , of the night , and what have you, setting that up, and maybe the late night process, hand over from the branch manager, walk round doing any detail he wants me to do, and hand over from late nights. Department managers, new checkouts, do all the bits and pieces on , and wanted me to do, while I wait for the shift to come in, and they start at seven. Er, keep an eye on them, I'll have a bit of replenishment here and then, erm, so he's, until eight o'clock, and then you get everything pulled out. Erm, replenishment until ten o'clock, er, get the warehouse , get the clear-out underway. So where do you actually delegate within that? To the er, because there's no other management in the place, you just delegate to another member of staff. And is that er, do you have one person that you allocate specific tasks or do you go on a daily basis. Er, it's like, it's like the foreman on the shopfloor for some reason, there's a er, in the systems or whatever, er, the warehouseman er, the night porter er, when he takes over, he knows what he's doing, he knows what I want, because I've spoken to him about it, erm, he knows what items I want to leave for stock people, erm, and Sue, the checkout manager, she'll know if I want extra people on the shopfloor because we're quiet, or I expect it to be quiet, erm, she knows where they've got to be, and I'll come back and review it with her. Okay, anybody else delegate? Yes, well how do you do it Teddy? Well it's, you go in in the morning, and it's the same jobs every day really basically. Erm, the , I first tell people what to do because they all know their roles, and when you go in in the morning, and you're just basically going round checking that they've already done it all. Okay Erm, if there's something needs doing extra you just ask the person who's best for the job to sort it out and to do it for you. So your role is more a checking and writing one, similar to what Helen. Yes, well with the staff I've got, yes, they're all there. At night-times I've got my jobs to get stuck into on the shopfloor as well, just hope that everybody works as a strong team basically. Yes, does anybody here not delegate? I did delegate, but I won't do it now, I do literally Say that again, I missed that. Er, I sorry,, just clearing my throat, er, I did, I did delegate if somebody put it on the end of somebody's assignment, then I to it, but I tend to find I underestimate what people can do for me all the time, and don't identify just how much those people can give me back, and I did, or I do have a tendency at times to give people like before, to hold on too much, try and do too much myself, and er, you can't do it that way in case. But once you've, you've got to know your people better, develop your people better. Right. It's something I've got to work on. To decide for yourself what they're capable of. Why, does anybody else find difficulty with delegating. No, I was just going to say that if, if you try it once, you know, you know if they can do it, they'll be . Oh, yes. I was going to say, I like to set somebody task as they're down for, and I look for it, and nine times out of ten you'll find out if they can achieve that very shortly, very fast. And if they cannae cope with it, they'll come to, or the majority will come and say look I cannae do it. If it's something silly, that they haven't been trained for, but most jobs you can delegate and they'll do it just as well as you. It's just a matter of having confidence in them to do that. Since, since Norwich, you just can't delegate like erm, you just ha , you don't have any other management there, only section managers, and you delegate that job to er, supervisors, erm, it's a very on-hands management situation. You can delegate to anybody can't you. You can delegate your staff as well. Yes, yes, fair enough, but erm, Depending on the task, it depends what the job is. Yes, I mean, like I mean making late payments, I'm delegating people to fill up those late payment. Okay, it's delegation, but it's not erm, the sort of like, a responsible job if you see what I mean, it's a job that they're employed to do anyway, but it's not a separate sort of task. Yes, okay. What's the difference between delegating and abdicating? Delegate erm, you can delegate the job, but you can't delegate the responsibility. Right, so when you delegate, what are you delegating? Specific tasks, the physical But when you delegate that task is there anything that you retain? The responsibility that it's being done right. Right, and who is ultimately accountable? Yourself. Yes, right, okay. When we're talking about delegating tasks, I think tasks can be almost categorised into two clear sections. Has anybody heard about how tasks can be categoried? I think they mentioned it on the video. Urgent and important. Right, then there's that which we're going to come onto in a minute It's active, isn't it, instead of reactive Reactive, yes. Can you erm, explain what a reactive task is, Tracy? It's something you haven't got planned into your day, isn't it, it's something that comes up, and you, you have to respond to it, so you have to have time between the day, to be able to do those things. Okay, can you give an example? Erm, it's like to keep my day planned out but, like the district manager might walk in or people might go off sick, and then you have to fill somebody in to that position. Things that you just don't think are going to happen So you act Especially management goes down ill or something. Okay, so they're unexpected can you thing of any, er, another kind of way of erm, other tasks that possibly could be described as reactive tasks? I've got customer experience. Pardon? Customer experience. So you've got customer query, or something like that. yes The bakery , and you're expecting a delivery, especially like on produce, and then you have to go off , or something like that, get people stacking right up. Okay, what about erm, if the opposite, I mean if we've got reactive tasks, what's the opposite of that? Proactive Proactive, or possibly just active. And how would you describe an active task? Something you do every day anyway. Right so they're regular, Regular, yes. What do they do for your department? I mean that, can you think of examples of active tasks? cleaning, checks Till checks, right, interesting that you should say that. Erm, just filling up shelves. yes, interesting you should say that, because the definition I had was something quite the reverse. Many of these are planned for, isn't it, you might do it every day, but you've planned for it, Right, So you, you'll be able to do it every Monday, but you've planned for it on Monday, you know who's going to do it, and they, you know, it's set up. Okay, so it's something right. The way I would possibly define active and reactive, I would see active as things that actually take your department forward a step. They are things that you do which actually improve your department both in the short and in the long-term. The long-term specifically. Things like okay, ordering possibly could be reactive and active, because yes, it's something that has to be done every day, but if your order in spot on, that is an active task, it would improve and benefit to your, you would say that that,. Whereas reactive, I think one typical task that's a reactive task which is yes, it's unexpected or whatever, is cardboard collecting, because it's the type of thing that happens regularly, but it doesn't actually get your department, it doesn't It doesn't achieve anything. No, in a day you do now, then later you've got to do it again. It's one of those mundane tasks. yes I mean, can you think of any, I mean, putting that kind of interpretation on it, can you think of anything else other than cardboard collecting. Tidying the cabinets, dressing them down . solids. Do you often find yourself doing these tasks? All day long. All day long, right. And most of the night. One, I think one of the tasks that you find branch managers doing on a fairly regular basis is collecting cardboard. What? Some of them do. My branch manager does it all the time. Yes, my branch manager does it all the time, yes, it's his regular way out. It's escapism. Escapism, exactly, you've hit the nail on the head there Dee, escapism. It's a comfort blanket, that's what it is, when you see your branch manager collecting cardboard, it's usually because he's feeling a bit stressed out. No, it's just because he's lazy. It could be just because he's lazy. Alright, what about, when you mentioned as well, we've got reactive and we've got active tasks. What about, you said something about, somebody mentioned important and urgent tasks? Who said that? I did. Yes, what do you see as those being? Well urgent tasks would be tasks that are done at that time, to complete them. So urgent equals time Equals time limit. limit and I mean, urgent is now isn't it, Yes It's to be done A S A P. What about important? Important, it has to be done, but it's not as, it's not as important as the urgent. Is that, is that right, what do the rest of think? No, it needs to be done but it's something that It needs to be done but do you know what I mean, if you don't your important things on time they become urgent yes, yes. No, because things come up unexpectedly, so things will become urgent that maybe you didn't think were important, but have just suddenly emerged. Do you know what I mean? Unexpected things that emerging you have to do there and then, like The whole day's important isn't it? The whole day's important. Yes, everything, a lot of things are important, and what you're saying is true Alex, that if you do the important things when you should do them, they won't become urgent, but equally what Tracy says is that, is true is that you will get unexpected things cropping up where you have to drop everything. I tell what is urgent is a message coming down to you, you've had a delivery team, they're going to destroy cases of whatever, so that's urgent, that has to be done there and then because it's a danger to the public or whatever. So that's important. And then you've got emergencies. How long, I mean, how, in terms of, in terms of time that you spend on urgent or important tasks, how long do you think an urgent task may take? Not long, not very long. So it's relatively short? And what about important? You might take your time on that, more time. So it could be something that's rather time consuming? Can things be both urgent and important. What can you think of that possibly is? Well your could be important first thing in the morning today, as you're sidetracked into doing other things, then it becomes urgent doesn't it, if you've had to reposition your , and whatever. Right. What I'd like you to do, is to have a look at your time , one, and first of all see notes down on it, make a note beside each task that you've got on there, whether it's active or reactive. Bearing in mind that active are things that take your time forward, in the long-term, reactive are things like scale checks, you know you're daily, fairly monotonous tasks like that. Aren't some, some of them both? Sorry? Aren't some of them both? Er, that's a possibility yes? You know you could say these scale checks, they're , but they're still urgent to be done. The, they're still, they're, they're not active in that they don't actually progress your department do they? If your scales are wrong you're not progressing are you? No, but we're not, we're not arguing that they're not working. Just classify them as being reactive and active, by them. Totally monotonous It tends to be the case that when a task is identified as being reactive you can usually delegate it down, because it's very, it's a monotonous, everyday task, it doesn't actually move the department forward. It's not strictly a managerial task. Has anybody got any reactive tasks on their lists? Yes Yes Well shout out a few. Not, not as many as active though, because you could say that stock checks and checks are reactive because you're doing it every day but, stock checks move the department forward on your stock reports. Right. But you could delegate it down couldn't you. I mean, I would say the overseeing of that, and trying to improve your stock results erm, as a key result area, is the active part of it, but the actual everyday doing those checks, you can delegate that down. So reactive, you delegate down I would have said in the, in the large part. Why have you got any down there? Butchering's a tasty part of , if I wanted to do anything I'd take a leaf out of, I would say is that, but I delegate down through the butchers. Cutting meat? Do you like it? Yes. Would you say that cutting meat and getting it on the shelf every day, takes your department forward? Yes, yes. It's just an everyday task. I would agree with you yes, An everyday task is something that you have to do every day, so No, no I'd agree with you, because to me pricing is, is active or whatever it is You couldn't wait, That's priority, that's got to be. No it isn't because it's a day to day activity. Yes but it's all based down on cutting more. What you've done is there, you've, you've, you've done your cutting programme, and then you delegate, yes, but the actual cutting, give that to the butchers. Yes. So the programme's the bit that you do, and then to them basically just cutting it, while it's still down, you were still , the awkward thing is both Which bit are you doing Kenny, you do the actual, you plan the, what did you call it? The? The cutting programme. The cutting programme, and you cut the meat. I cut the meat, yes. But do you cut meat? Yes, Friday and Saturday I do. But why? Delegate to someone else? Because we haven't got the staff to do it. Right. It's the same for the provisions manager, they have the same kind of thing isn't it. But it could be delegated. Cut meat brings my department forward, and if I don't cut that meat, and don't build up slowly upwards, therefore my department's going to stand still isn't it? What do the rest of you think? I agree with him, I agree. I mean do you think that the actual cutting of the meat should be a managerial task? No No, I don't, but who else is going to do it, if I don't do it? Yes, I agreed. Okay, we've got two issues here. If you've got a situation where you're the only person around well yes, obviously you're going to have to do it, and you can't, you're not in a position where you're able to delegate. But I would have said that something like cutting meat, if you've got butchers around, it's not something that you would be, you should be spending your time doing. That is normal, it happens all the time. You, if you had something more to do, you wouldn't be cutting meat though? I'd rather be, on Sundays, cutting meat, wrapping meat, packing meat,and doing the same for everybody else. Yes there's a situation where you get There's nobody else there. Yes, but we, we're talking about the days when you do have other people available, what would you spend your time doing? Cutting meat. That excuses my question, like you're going down your priorities, you take , and in the low branches, we still have the same old jobs to do, there's the stocktaking, X thousands of pounds. Yes, oh no, I agree with that, but when you're cutting the meat, what are your butchers doing? My butchers are not there. No but we're talking about the days when your butchers are there. What am I doing then, I'm filling the shelves. What does the rest of you think? Think they like, cutting meat isn't taking his department forward, it's an everyday activity. If he took more staff on and they were say filling up provisions, putting the pies out every day is taking the department forward, it's an everyday task. Order it correctly in the first place. Right. If the manager's department. If you order it correctly, then your staff can function on a daily basis. It's when you don't order it correctly, it's when you go wrong. If you get your books right, it'll all happen on the shopfloor. Say that again? If you get your books right, it'll all happen out on the shopfloor, all the manager has to do. Because that's what you're expecting them to do. Yes, but that's not, not what a regional manager's supposed to do. A regional manager spends more time , you know, okay, it's a little bit longer, I deal with more lines than you, the pressure is far , you know, every branch manager I know, the guy's got to believe that they'll get staff from somewhere, it's just as long as they get the order in and the availability right. Does anybody else have reactive tasks on their list? I've had during the week which are shopfloors, bullets, that sort of thing. Which tasks do you have Donna? Thing like checking recipes through the post, and things like that. So a lot of mine are reactive because I just haven't got any staff. No, but if you had the staff, I mean we're talking about a hypothetical situation, would you still try doing that? No, I'd give that up any day. Okay, does anybody find themselves doing reactive tasks when possibly they do have the staff? yes There are certain things like active, that I actually do throughout the branch as well. I mean I could quite easily delegate it out, but I can't because it's a management function, so , I've got to be the one that's got to walk round the branch for half an hour, taking twelve blocks off, checking all the sealed . So that's actually within procedure that you have to do that. Yes it is. Okay, so that's obviously you're then able to delegate. I think you're, you're often asked to do reactive tasks when I've done all my tasks, you know I've got all my staff doing this, and then I've got to help down on the shopfloor, and it's not that I'm doing something that I'm, you know, I should be doing as a manager, it's that I've done all of mine, and I'm going out to give them a hand. If I had, if I had more pressing tasks personally, I wouldn't be doing it. yes. I think erm, shifts differ slightly through other departments, in the sense that it is only there for one day. The only thing that you can really do to take yourself forwards in a shift situation is your scheduling for the following week. You know, er, right look at previous weeks, with, you know, er, branch to mind the er, the account for the kind of day is er, the account is probably pretty much the same as it was the previous week. There's very little chance of it catching unawares. Er, but I mean, everything you do is, is designed to set yourself up in the best possible position for when the staff come in and, and throughout the shift leaving it as best you can for the branch manager the next day. It, it's all reactive to that day, in that there's very, very little in carrying you forward. Yes, some of the departments, some department managers I think have more erm, their goals tend to be more short-term possibly than longer term. Yes, the same thing is like erm, if I do , the rest of the shop for the rest of the d , that day, but I do goods the next night, erm, that shop's okay for the next day, and it's, it's only like on a one day basis. Mm, yes, okay. So active is a job that gets done on a daily basis every day? No No, not necessarily , no, an active task is something that takes your department forward, actively improves the way your department runs, which could be something like. Pardon? ooh. Do have a seat Mrs anyway, what can I do for you today? Well it's this damn cough and cold get. Still coughing? I've had it since just before Christmas and it keeps going and coming. Mm. Are you coughing anything up with it? No I can't I, I heave with it but I can't get nowt up. Right. I made myself some medicine, some er honey, glycerine and apple cider vinegar. Mm. It's an old remedy but I think But it still hasn't worked? No. No. No. Let's have a look. Nothing's worked. Now open wide for me, that's fine. Say ah. Ah. Stick your tongue right out. . Good. Right let's have a quick listen, I think what we're going to need to do is to get a chest X- ray, even if your chest is fairly clear, I still suspect it's the hernia that's drying things up. bit cold. Nice deep breaths Clear at the front and your heart sounds fine too. Deep breaths again, that's fine. Oh breathing hard, I go ever so dizzy. Oh I'm sorry. . Breathe a bit more gently then if you wish. That's fine, your chest actually sounds absolutely clear. So what can it, what can it be cos it's worrying Don't know. me. Something, somewhere is irritating either the lungs or the airway or the back of the throat. Well in fact the back of the throat looks fine. Yeah. The lungs sound clear, so it's probably the airway. And if you get a hernia, hiatus hernia, with acid Yeah well I got that's what I have got one. That's right. And you have acid coming up the gullet, Yeah. it can irritate the airway too and you can cough because of hiatus hernias. No the important There's no way I can, I don't Yeah. hiatus hernias. Don't Er they ever go? Well themself or anything? They don't go by themselves, the problems they cause can go, but that's a bit different. What we need to do to start off with is to look at your chest in greater detail, get a chest X-ray. If that's clear we then need to go back and attack the hiatus hernia with more erm, but we'd better get your chest sorted out first. Should have gone in hospital last Monday to have me hand done. Yeah. And I'm going on holiday on Saturday. Right. So er, er it were daft weren't it? Going and having it done and then going on holiday. to keep going and everything. That's alright. Now if I give you this you can actually go along at your own convenience, Yeah. so you can go before you go on holiday, Yeah. or in fact you can go afterwards. If, you know where the Victoria Hospital is? Yes. Now called Mansfield Community? Yes, yes, If you if you nip down there you can go any day Monday to Friday, you can go any time between nine and four thirty, you've just got to remember to take your lunch. tomorrow because I'm at me mam's tomorrow at Yeah. Mansfield and I can go when I come back from me mam's about three o'clock. Perfect. And I get the results for when I come back then. Won't I? Yeah. That's right. Okay, so let me just write that on the back, Monday to Friday and that's nine to four thirty. If you go there it's easier to get to. Yeah. Okay. That's the next step we st we may need to treat your tummy with something else after that but I think that's rather go going to depend on what the chest X-ray shows, and how you feel. You may find after goi coming back from holiday there's nothing wrong with you, so er Yeah but I mean I've had it since your fortnight before Christmas on and off. Yeah, I know, yeah. It's driving me blooming mad. Mhm. It's driving Derek mad as well, and I've got right down from about, what? Twelve fifteen cigarettes to four Yeah,go you're doing well. So, and I'm trying to stop altogether but Yeah. I can't do it all in one No. go. You're And doing the right things though, so You know it's not having this, this You know here? Mhm. And even here, I've got it. I, I, do you know I wish, I just wish that I could explain how I feel, but I can't. Mm. I'm trying to tell you how I feel in myself. All my bones feel as though they're seizing up. Yeah. That's how I feel. I hurt I really hurt. Mm. Here all up here, here in my arms I mean I had seven week physiotherapy on this arm, it's Mm. no better now than No. what it were when I started going. Mm. It's all, it dead, it's Mm. it hurts. I wake up like it, I go to bed like it, I've got it all the time that I'm living with a bloody nightmare, all the time. And I don't think it's from that hand. Mm. I don't, don't for a minute think it's from that hand, because you know the tingling, you're s are you supposed to get tingling all time? You can do, yes. Well I don't. You can do. I don't. Not necessarily. I it's these bones what hurt here. Mm. That's the main problem there. Th when I'm, I'm picking doing owt it hurt, really hurt. Mm. It's like as though I've in mangle. And this is like two day where I just aching, burning. You know I don't know what to do with myself sometimes. I can't sit and watch television, I can't knit. I sit and read and I'm tightening up like this and I like that to sort of Mm. I'm always doing that,think I'm bloody daft when I do it, but it, it sort of releases tension. Mm. I don't know what it is, but it oh it's carrying me down, I know that much and I have it for years and years. Well there are one or two other things we can do to try and make you feel better er even if the, the hands aren't the principle cause er I think we'll see what happens, work your chest out of the way first though. Yeah. I'm certainly not going to er w to say let's give you a trial of this or a trial of that, until we know what's happened with your chest, so Yeah, well I've b t to tell you honest truth, I've been on th I've been down that road. I've Mm. been down that road, If you've got me on the records it'll show you. Yes, we're short of Cos I er I've just asked, they haven't found them yet. No, we don't know where they've gone. Cos I mean it tells you on there, I can't remember, it tells you on there every tablet I've had, all for this. To Yeah. no avail. Yeah. They go here, they go here and they make me dizzy. Mm. They make me light-headed, they make me feel sick, they go to my stomach, Mm. I'm bilious and they don't do anything for this No. what I want to happen. We, we need to watch what we give you because of your Yeah. hiatus hernia. Yeah. Anyway. Let's have you having a chest X-ray and have a holiday. Yeah. And then we'll have another look Well, when we come back. But your chest y I've had an holiday That's right. But your chest is, is sounding clear and I expect it's management of the hernia that's going to Ooh, can I have a prescription for them tablets? W the Sametadine Is Yeah, I didn't actually take any The ones I gave you last w yeah Yeah, yeah. yeah, yeah. I'm nearly out of them. In fact I, I don't think I am. Sometimes er do I have to take them all the time? I'm not sure about that. If I do if I don't feel this hernia, if I ain't got any indigestion, I don't take them. I would for the moment, yeah, I would for the moment. Yeah, just, just keep taking them, one in the morning and one at night? Yes, yes. Alright then. And then we'll have a chat about that, as I said, Yeah. when you're back from holiday. Now fatty food, alcohol, large meals, fizzy drinks Yeah. will all tend to upset your tummy. Yeah. So be a little bit cautious. But Yeah. you are allowed to drink and you are allowed to splash out and you are Oh yeah. allowed to go and have sausage and chips at a caff Yeah you know. Just be, just be but drink in moderation. a bit careful, yeah, Yeah. Yeah. yeah. Yeah, Right? well I know I can't eat oranges, and I can't No. eat orange juice No. You'll find your own things Yeah that's it, yeah. If I, and salad cream I can't e I can't even put salad cream on a salad Oh dear. because that upsets me and all. Shame I like I like a bit of salad cream. I know, yeah. I've tried mayonnaise and I've tried Say all the right things and. Thanks Richard erm a copy of the C V plus the form filled in where Okay appropriate. Obviously . That's Yeah. great. Yeah saves a bit of writing and er and you'll always get a bit more detail on it can't you? Yes. Er while I'm having a look through this er Richard er over there we have erm a selection of the product selection of the product which erm we discussed briefly on the phone. All right. So erm er if you wanna look through that I'm no doubt. There's a signature coming up is there? erm certainly the average cost of an ad if you took the most expensive and the least expensive across all of those products would come out somewhere in the region of six hundred pounds. Per ad? Per ad. But what size ad? I suppose that depends on what it goes in . Well once again if you look at the er er if you look at the full page which costs nine hundred pound on a on a golf club score card and you look at the full page in the A five booklet Mhm. which will cost a thousand pound and there's only black and while. If you look at a full page when they happen, they don't happen all that often on a schools portfolio which costs two thousand two hundred pounds, you'll see there's there's already three different prices Yeah. er across three different products. Because they're all different sizes and they're all erm The artwork costs and set up costs and so on. Right. So what we say is that if you took all of our products all our ads they would be somewhere in the region of six hundred pounds. Now if you took a medical practice booklet they range from three hundred and ninety up to twelve hundred. So the least, if fact I I'm fairly safe in saying, that the least commission you can earn on an ad, providing it's in our you know you're taking it from our price system not discounted it, Mhm. would be somewhere in the region of a hundred and fifteen pounds. So you will go in you will never come out of a an advertiser with less commission than that. Right. Unless you have discounted it and you give two or three pounds away when you do that. Right. But in the main we are looking for er somewhere in the region of er hundred and eighty pounds per per per deal and we're looking for one of those a day average. Mhm. Our top people earn top money because A they're not satisfied with one deal a day. Mhm. Er we say that a an assignment should take two to three weeks for instance. An assignment being one complete One complete product yes. We're er I was asked a question earlier on today erm how many assignments will I be looking after in any one time and I just said one. And he only, you start one finished it and then go onto another one. There's no overlap you have to complete one? Well if you yeah. There are one or two instances where you can go back. If there's erm For instance I've had a situation where on a medical practice booklet because we er hand back a hundred pound for every full page that we we gain in the medical practice booklet, er it's an encouragement for if we're just a quarter of a half page short, er for the practice to say you know we'll get for another hundred quid we'd all we need to do is make a couple of phone calls and threaten erm one or two of our patients . And that happened with me. I set up a solicitor two months after I'd finished the the assignment. Because they phone me up and said, Look we needed another half a page in this for us to get another hundred pound. I said yes. And they said, Well I've got a solicitor who's interested now. New pa new relation Oh I see the doctor right I'm with you now The doctor did a bit erm arm twisting. The doctor the doctor's patient is a solicitor n whose obviously he can now advertise anyway. That's right they can now. That's made a lot of difference. I can imagine yeah. And so I went back two months after. In fact I'd come off the road. I was already doing this job and so I went back because there they were going there there's a solicitor going to earn me erm er somewhere in the region of a hundred and seventy pound commission. So I Mm. I went back. It wasn't very much to go back. So you can do that but in the main we try not to have any loose ends on er an assignment. But that's really in the hands of the individuals that er are selling the advertising. Mm. Erm er and it's the way that we do it that's made it made it very comfortable to go into something, like most of the people that come to see us and work with us, they've never sold never been involved in advertising let alone sold it because erm I've been on the other end I've had people come sell it for to me . Sure. And so have I. I mean if I look back over my career with American corporates where I've bought advertising it actually runs into millions of pounds. Where I've been involved with the marketing groups to to bring advertising. You see Well I've done I I've sold advertising I suppose but by blackmail. That's it. What in your buying and selling guide? When I yeah when I was commercial manager for er one of the things that I was given the job to do was to sort out the company's buying. Because when I joined them they had eight branches Right. and when we parted company they had forty. But they had gone up to forty eight through acquisitions. Er my biggest downfall was that the guy that employed me who was the eldest brother of the two that owned the company got killed in a bloody erm riding accident Oh right yeah. and his younger brother had always hated me because Tom had always ranted down his throat, Why can't you sell and organize things like Richard does? Oh dear me. It's all very well when he's alive. It doesn't it's not good for building up relationships. No. So erm but of course we had er a buying and selling guide if you like. Mm. Now the selling guide er was an innovation to Tom bring some, all right carry on Hello All right I wonder if you could ask him if he'd like a coffee or tea and erm er er just wait for me. Thanks Oh Mike okay yeah. Oh wonderful that's good news thanks very much good bye. And one of the things we set out to do was to bring some stability to the industry because everyone was trying to carve prices up. All right. And to be honest the cheapest price doesn't necessarily win No. er business anyway. So because we were the largest we took we in conjunction with people like Redland Roof Tiles and er Sure. the majors Another my clients as well. We said look we'll bring out a price guide Mm. but we ain't gonna pay for it. Oh no no. So you guys Get it sponsored by the Yeah. You guys are gonna sponsor this but it will bring the the trade buying price, not the retail because that's there isn't there's no such thing in in as a retail price for that sort of industry. Erm up then you can turn round when the smaller people come and say are carving up the price, you can turn round and say, Oh no they're not that's the price and that's the price. Yeah right okay. And that you know so er but it's only well blackmail. Yes er I think we've all er sold something er in advertising er er remotely related to selling er at some time or other in our careers. So let's er let's er er get er the proceedings on a on a not formal footing but laid out what we're trying to do today. Erm I suppose you could say almost fifty percent of the erm er discussions took place on the phone. Because if if we er if we don't hear a bit in the background and we don't hear the style in the individual er on the phone then we won't invite them to to come and have discussions with us. The reason for that is that we do all our selling on the phone. In in Of course. that respect. Er I I emphasize that very quickly because a lot of people have been involved in all sorts of sales environments and market places erm still have their traditional habits. And that is you don't mention the price or anything else until the last possible minute. Here we tell them absolutely everything on on the phone. Because if you leave anything to chance they'll blow you out when you get face to face. And you can chase your tail an awful lot Oh people are very wary of advertising Sure. selling so they wanna know exactly what they're letting themselves in for . So well no yeah, is it worth seeing this guy? Is the product you know even a description of the product that we're that they're going into er will be suffice on the telephone, they don't have to see these these these er items if they're described in in er in enough detail. Er so I get that out of the way er fairly early on. But what we're trying to do today here Richard is three er er three things. First of all you and I have to agree that is the sort of company that er er you could be involved with er and the other way around. Er seco and once that sort of I suppose the biggest hurdle's out of the way once that the other two become fairly simple. Erm that is er we agree on which company we might feel er you're going to be happiest in environmentally terms. Because whatever er product area you work in then you're doing the same thing as everybody else is. Mm. Er the sl the pitch is slightly different because you're describing a different product and what the benefits are. But in essence we're selling advertising to all of those products. And we now have somewhere in the region of abo about a hundred and seventy five to a hundred eighty sales consultants throughout the U K. All doing the same thing with all with the same earning potential. And the after that er second decision's made is when. And as far as we're concerned we're happy to er for people to start immediately they think they are available. And that's the sort of decision we make er here. I don't hide behind a regret letter. Nobody walks out of there without me saying, Yes it's good for you and er here's a date erm you know for where where the training course starts. Okay? Mhm. So erm first of all for for we've had a cha chat for about ten minutes erm I have no problem in thinking you can do this job. Because we do send people erm er sorry send, we ask people to come on to a training course which we fully expense. Mhm. Which So is held where? At . Right. Whichever depending on which company you go in sometimes there are a couple of days out in the field plus three days in head office. Some are just three days in head office and straight into assignments because they feel that er we have selected individuals for the right environment. Er and but others just feel they want to do it that way, other companies. But all have a fully expensed training course. Some are held every other week and some are held every week depending on the size of the company. So er I I have no problem with that. Erm having er decided that, let me ask you if you of what you've seen so far, and I haven't gone into er whichever product er do you thing this is do you think you could erm get into the habit of selling advertising and earning fairly substantial commission. Because in our field we're we're by far the biggest and the best in in terms of support and finance. I'd have to ask one well I'd like to ask one question first. I I feel Well ask I can do Okay. like. Where so far have you got to in, not recruiting at this time, but actually attempting to sell advertising in this particular area. And the reason I ask that obviously I don't want to go knocking on doors where somebody's already tried Oh er without having prior knowledge of the fact that somebody's We've failed. yeah we've bri er Howard when he started this company gradually expanded from Blackpool. He he or I should say. Er what he didn't do which is which is very sensible and what has failed for other companies is that he didn't decide this is a good idea I'll have somebody in Newcastle and somebody in Edinburgh and I'll have somebody, in other words he gradually built the whole of the business out until he reached London by which time he he'd a hell of exp er a lot of experience and knowledge about this thing's going. We've been selling in this area fairly consistently across estate agents Mhm. cos that's the only the only companies that we dealt with er up to four years ago. Er and there're certain categories that'll always go into estate agents won't go in medical practices won't go go on golf courses and won't go in schools. Yeah. So they all have their own niche of advertisers. Some legitimately if they wanted to could gain business from going in all of them. There are cert certain categories of business that we've built up over the year. A builder could go in all of those. Possibly a solicitor now they're allowed to advertise. And a solicitor. Erm er accountants can all legitimately go in all of those products. So there are certain categories we know. And this area is a gold mine for us. We got we've got I could have twenty five sales execs sitting er in the Newca Tyne and Wear area put it that way on on across those products and they wouldn't even bump into each other. Because they all have if you like every location business location will have their own favourites who they're going to recommend that we approach. The golf course is very selective. I mean there's only five ads can go on on er each of their products. Fourteen ads in estates er same for schools about average of fourteen in medical practices. So we're only looking for fourteen businesses on each assignment. Somewhere in that region. Less on on er less unless unless we split full pages and go into halves and that brings in the same sort of revenue thereabouts but just happens to spread and so to answer your question I would there's no problem Right. of how many people and and and the second part to that then is Yes. in each of those categories how often does it get repeated? Er the product is resold every two years. Right. So you go into the guy you sell it to him and then you've lost you've got for two years you can do nothing with that person . Oh in fact you're not even you could never have to go back to that same place but depends on where what you're doing at the time that assignment comes up for reselling. If you're if you're available erm then coincidentally you would go into that, er but no. The relationships you build up with our clients and the advertisers, with the clients you're working in their own er their offices for three weeks so you get to know people. Mhm. With the advertiser you meet him once never see him again. Because literally you're only going in to get his contract his money and his copy and off you go. Thanks very much I've just earned my commission. It's the relationship between the client and the advertiser which goes on for the next two years. Yeah. When he says But for the sales bloody waste of time this was I didn't get any business out of it or er I did well out of this No er well well if he's got any sense I I always tell the advertiser I said now the adv I said you as the advertiser have got to keep worrying you may have to chivvy them up. What am I gonna get out of this. But in essence what we're doing is putting your business card in front of somebody for two years. Mm. But I'm I'm not here to teach you how to to do the pitch . The training course would certainly do that. Right. Erm I mean if you're if you feel that I don't I don't think you'd have any problem doing this it's your it's your it's the No I just thought where you come from as well. Pardon? Where you come from can sell just about anything in the home counties. If you're a home counties man you can sell anywhere in the country. Oh I see yeah. If you get my if you get my drift . Funnily enough we always say erm that within the structure of when I was a regional manager and there were four of us erm Andrew who lives in Manchester Mm. said Richard he said, I don't know how you do it in London he said, if they ever asked me to come down here he said I would die. Yeah. He said I would I would not be accepted . Home home counties people like me could go anywhere. Mm. Richard erm if I now got to the stage of saying if if you had a choice, cos I have a luxury here of six companies er most recruiters just have one job for one company. Mm. I've got number of jobs for a number of companies. So it's unusual and I get told off for giving you a choice but what do you think? I I what I want to do is make, if people going into selling advertising for the first time and most people are let's face it Mm. er it is important for me to get the environment right. Now I I've got I've got two or three in my own mind but erm that could you know At at first glance I would probably decide I'd I'd actually enjoy the golf club one but I'm sure it doesn't pay as much money. And I'm sure I wouldn't get as good a rewards out of that personally and satisfaction as I perhaps would I don't know. Well there there are three there are three organizations or companies there that I think you'd be er happier in especially going out for the first time and also er your style. Mhm go on. Well Let let me certainly golf clubs would be one of them Mhm er schools and medical. I wouldn't put you in er around and even though you've had experience strangely enough in the roofing industry and we get a lot of roofers in advertis er er how how do you which would you have chosen. Erm Strangely enough golf clubs actually you you can earn more money. Can you? Yeah. It's probably a harder sell because it's four colour and it's nine hundred pound for a little space like that but they're doing quite well. But the schools But is that because a new innovation you see. I mean I have Yeah we've we've had six months you're breaking new ground. We are breaking new ground here. Because they've always let's be fair they've always been around so somebody else has been doing them. Eagle Golf Promotions is the is the largest er a sales consultant has just er finished er my club off. You know finished their done their card and he did that in about er four da er five days it was. The card. What from Eagle or ? No no no Eagle you see Eagle Prom er Eagle Promotions charge clubs for their cards as well as keeping the advertising money. Oh I see. We keep the advertising money and the cards are free of charge. Well So in fact all of that product there is free of charge. But I what I need is any anybody So on there you've got er oh I wouldn't know what that adverts to do with What's that one? Oh the cards. But that was if I remember rightly that was a mock-up. Oh If you take the real thing. I was going to say I Yes that's that's where to buy a ball. Those those are nine hundred pound page per year for two years. Nine hundred pounds per year? Yep. And if you sign them up do we get the commission for the For the first year only. For the for the first year. We don't get any paid anything in the second year ? No. Because all our production costs all our commissions come out of the first year. Second year is actually where we make money. So you do an three hundred pounds. That's nine hundred Yeah. You'd get thirty percent. Nine hundred and you would get thirty percent. So you can work out that for for erm for that card which has got three full pages. Then he was doing that's the planner he was doing the card at the same time erm Anyway that's the there's the that's the the, but I need to make a decision I'd I'd quite I'd quite enjoy the golf club one. Right. Er I just wondered what satura saturation you've had golf clubs Oh we've only just started them. up here. Yeah. So you'd be against Eagle as the main competitor if if they've got them already Oh yes we're we're knocking we're we're knocking Eagle. Because I would've thought most golf We we would concern clubs have already got them. Yes they have but they haven't got them for free. They've saved my club four and a half thousand pound a year. In the cost of their cards. Yes. And they they can soon put that somewhere else to er good use . And what area would I be restricted to? Okay what I what I need before All right okay I go into any more detail are we fixed on the golf club area? You only go in one you see. But the other one I would've er suggested would've been the schools. I must admit I've never seen anything like that on schools. No but that's But before also new. be before we go into that though Mm. you would give the leads is that right as I read this? Yes we we s You say you got to go to that golf club or you've got to go to that school. That's right. Yeah you have no Because we've set up a deal with that school Yeah. for a brochure. Our marketing our marketing er group has gone around to all the erm er the clients within that market place erm, well not all of them at least they're gradually going round signing the contract to take the product. That's that's done already. We you just get a phone call from us that says, Here's here's your next assignment. We guarantee continuity of assignment. Within within which area would that be? How Well large an area? well erm we we pay thirty percent commission up to a hundred miles away from home. Right. We pay thirty five percent if it's more than a hundred miles away from home. But the whole point of recruiting in a geographical area like this is we don't want we don't want to send people erm er miles away from their home if we can avoid it. Mm. Erm I I just I just try to work out whether there must be a bigger concentration of schools in this area than than golf clubs. But whether you'd manage to sign all schools I'm not so sure . Oh we we've just sent out a six thousand mailer. Six thou a mailer to six thousand schools in addition to the ones we've already got signed up. That would not be a problem. Let me tell you you do not have to worry about continuity of assignment. And all we say is that we pay extra commission if we send you away but it is against er against our principle and even er economics to send people that far away. Right okay. I I have to say the top earners of course ask for those further away. That's where they make their money. Yes. Or make their extra money. Mm. Two things that make a people a top earner here of course is one of them one of them in addition to graft, is that they won't sit back and sign up one deal and be very satisfied in a day. Mm. They will want to go on and do two or three. Mm. They'll also have no compunction whatsoever in taking Well let's fair on the golf the thirty five percent deals. On the golf club one if you've really got your finger out and you're known Oh well enough you could you could do one in day. I'm a I I I'm an er avid golfer, you I didn't say a golfer because that meant I could play, erm but I wouldn't put me on the golf clubs. You wouldn't? No. I could s I I even though it might make me a lot of money because I know that if I got if I made a dozen phone calls and didn't get any deals I'd be out there wanting play the er I wouldn't trust myself . I wouldn't take no no I wouldn't take the golf clubs with me. Right okay. But I need to sorry I need to make. Are we are we going for schools or colleges? Now if if the management at home heard me doing this of course er giving you a choice but I believe in it. And you eat the tape afterwards. Erm you've put me on the spot I don't I don't I've really I've really got no preference on them. Right well I let's I I I would go for schools if I were you. Mm okay fair enough . I mean cos it makes a difference the pack I bring out. Yes sure . That's that's why I'm putting you under pressure. Right this is for you to take away. I'm going to ver the well the information I impart now is in brief Richard because they will certainly cover it in a lot more detail when you get to the er training . Okay. Let's get some samples er in front of you all right? I have to say once again that this, once again sorry I told somebody else this, this is the most attractive product we do I believe. The schools are seem to be able to make them look attractive because of the photography and things like that. And they are used to get bums on seats. Since the parents choice charter came out it is it is essential for all school, state opt-out grant maintained independent, to promote themselves. And that's why this has been so successful. Every assignment has a certain amount of documentation attached to it. Certainly when you arrive at the school they are committed by their contract to provide you with a desk office and and telephone facilities for two to three week or the duration of the assignment. But we we agree that after three weeks we should be should have completed it. Erm the advantage that schools has er have sorry, over the other products, is that if you went to a medical practice you may have four or five doctors to help you out. If you went to an estate agent you may if they're willing to er have one or two estate agent staff to help you out and if you went to a golf club you would be likely to have the pro or the secretary help you out. In a school you may have fifty to sixty teachers to help you out. And what I mean by help out is that one of the documents that we leave er when we sign them up to take the product is a list that so that looks something like this. And we ask them to bring together er list of the businesses which they are happy for us to approach on their behalf Mm. to support this folder. So all of those people there or most of them are likely to have been on a list that the school have recommended. They will form all sorts of categories too and the worst thing you can do in sa in er negotiating advertising er Richard is to prejudge anybody Oh I can who might come in. Be completely wrong. You'd be completely. I've done it myself I've said no that guy what would that guy want to go in there for. Except that, it was a butcher right? People moving in, this was in the medical practice, people moving in new er new er new first things you do is register with a doctor. Mm. And the the butcher was gaining a lot of business out of it. Because they said, Ah fine I know where to go for my meat. And they are associated with the with the doctor. So I prejudged . we did that with the with the chemist. We phoned the chemist to find where the nearest and best doctor was when we moved to Preston . There you go you see. And that chemist er would've recommended probably The one that gets his scripts. Absolutely right. Okay so this list will be waiting for you when you arrive at the the assignment. The important thing about that Richard is you still have to sit down and talk to them about these businesses. Get as much information as to why they have been put on that list. Because you'll use that when you contact. Yes. So don't ex just don't go straight into that list. No no. Okay. Other documentation you receive and certainly is this one and you can't do your job without that and that's a blank of of the layout. Okay? So that as you sell the the slots, first of all you want you want to be able to point out where which the slot is when you've er er finally sign the contract. You also need to cross off as you sell them. Mhm. Once again they will tell you precisely what you've gotta do on the er training course. But let me show you er just while we've got that open how prices relate to those slots. And also have got an example here of what the earnings are. Every assignment on schools has a basic target of five thousand pounds all right? And that's what you have to have up in your mind. It also relates to once you know that you've reached that five thousand pound, that you've got your thirty percent commission on all sales. Over five thousand pound we pay you another fifteen percent. There's a small one before that but I would concentrate on fifteen percent. Mhm. All commission er bonuses are paid at proof stage and I'll explain why in a minute. If you just look at some the er numbers here. One po er positions one to four are nearly five hun well say five hundred pound each. They're premium slots. Okay? And then we have two other erm pricing erm areas for those slots there . Okay I'll let you study this when you when you've gone all right? Mhm. Now some of the schools have asked for this spa , this by the way is belongs to the school. Some schools have asked for that to be kept for the sch er you know for them as well. If they take up that space you must offer up the back page. That's which is traditionally theirs. Yep. In fact I think I not sure whether it's this one. That's an example. And also the school got that company for us. But that's a two thousand two hundred page. The commission on that is a third. You can work that out for yourself. Mhm. You can't do the job without that. No. You get one of those for every assignment. Okay. Er a quick example down here. If you sold the whole of that product at non-discounted prices that's the revenue. And with schools it's very achievable. That is the earning in your two to three week period. Mhm. So if you took a six week period then you're looking at somewhere around four and a half thousand pounds worth of income. Very achievable. I emphasized just now about the extra five percent. I've put that in bold down there so that people understand that. Right. And of course that's substan makes that compounded up that makes it even more. Mhm. Okay? That's for Yep okay. you to take away. We will pay all commissions the following week. All right? Now we're one of the very few companies that will pay weekly commissions on a commission only basis. And the reason for that is that we ask you to do three things when you get in front of the advertiser having got his commitment. And I'll show you very quickly the documentation. All six companies have exactly the same contract. The only difference is and I hope you're not colour blind Yes. Are you? Are you really? Yeah. Oh dear. What colour's that to you? Oh no that's green you're okay. I might have known. No it's just the different different shades of green. You're the first person I've said that to who said come back to me and said yes. Yeah I am actually. Those are both white I can assure you. But it what I'm saying is that they're all shades of colour anyway. Yes. But erm they they're they're erm colour coded . But but I'll only have one anyway. That's right. So what whatever colour I wanted to make sure that you see if if er at some stage, and people ask me this, if if we needed to transfer people Oh I see. between companies we don't have to retrain them on on No. the admin which does help. Only on the pitch. Well my my problem only is is when the blues run into greens and the reds run into browns. Oh when you get bleeds that's what we call Erm I have been known to go out with one black sock on and blue sock on. Oh have you really oh well. I think I think we've all done that at some time or other. Certainly odd socks. Erm so but I wanted to point out two or three things on this contract that if you don't tell them on the phone about them before you get round there they they'll use it They'll frighten they use it The system tells us they'll use you'll frighten them off. And this is these are the sorts of things. You must tell them that you want to pick up a thirty five percent of the first year's payment. Whatever the payment is agreed. That is significant because that covers us for paying you commission. So we've already got that. Mhm. So we've got that so you deserve to have it as soon as possible after banking it. Er we need to tell them that we'll take the balance of the first year's payment through er er on proof, when we when they've got their proof on on the desk we will take the next the balance of the first year's payment through a banker's order. Banker's order they'll use if if you haven't told them that we want a banker's order signed. If there are two signatories on the cheque you've gotta have two signatories on the er banker's order. So you have to make sure both sure tho both of those people are there when you call. If you left this anywhere left it behind and came away it would be lost in the system you'd never see it again. No. And we take the second year's, this is a sales pitch, we take the second year's payment a year later. So if they say, Oh I can't afford that . Then you say no it's a three stage payment in effect. Mm. Deposit first year second year a year later . So it would be a deposit balance of first year at proof stage and then erm But obviously there's somebody at head office you will be going through that in much more detail. Mhm. Er one of the other things that we want of course. Now that's two things, contract and the cheque. The third thing we want to complete the deal is copy. Now most people that come to see us have never been involved in designing or writing ads. We you don't er nobody has to worry about that. If they had wonderful. I mean I had so I it did help. We will take whatever copy they have in existence all ready where they've advertised somewhere else. If they want us to juggle it around we will do it. If they want us to design a brand new one we will do it at no extra cost. So the artwork is not a problem you have to get involved in . Is not a problem. Right. If they say we've got co I haven't got copy. What's that gonna cost me? Nothing. I'll come round when we sign the deal after we've signed the deal I'll sit down with you for er er fifteen minutes however long it takes to decide on the copy. Then we will compose it as long as we've got some detail. Mhm. If you send all those er bits and pieces in at the end of the week we just ask you and you most people don't get this wrong. Is the commission claim sheet. Representative oh well there you go, consultant number every assignment has a unique number. We list the advertisers put all this detail down which once again will be er will be gone through. Er if people have registered for V A T there's a special V A T er sheet. Because some of course are they they reach the thirty six thousand threshold without any problem at all. I mentioned bonuses being paid at proof stage. Every two months a list comes out to the sales consultants to say these assignments have been proofed. All you have to do is look for your own number er if you if you have hopefully you've kept a record of the assignments where you've earned bonus and you can claim it as soon as that number is published. A lot of people leave it in Can you can you just explain that bit again Okay. the bonus. Right. Bonus all er all your thirty percent is are are paid as you declare it during the assignment week after Ah sorry yeah so the fif the the five percent or the fifteen point seven and a half or whatever it is Fifteen percent fifteen percent you claim only at proof stage. Because that's the next stage at which we get money. Right okay. That's the way you do it. Mhm. Okay. That's a fairly average week for a lot of people. That was this is one of mine. Er my last but one. Er that's the sort of figure that we're we need to be looking at. Right. Okay? Mhm. Just to show you. Er everything's colour coded. Oh I see this is just for different names of the different in-house companies that's golf that's schools, that's the one that you would use obviously. Same thing just the headings change a bit okay? Yes. That's all we ask you to do. The advertising the paperwork and that's how easy it is to make money. It's available to you. Is that for you? Sounds very interesting I must admit. Mm. Yeah well I I I obviously I would say this but er I think it's the best opportunity that people have for a career direction because we we've redirected a lot of people's careers in this aspect. And also we've I suppose re-launched people's er especially in the older bracket Yes unfortunately who who erm are consistently being told they're too old for things. We have no problem with that at all. In fact the more mature the better as far as I'm concerned. I would trust er you much more than er erm a twenty five or thirty year old out there to get on and do the job. Yeah. I think er with experience becomes the the self-motivating part is something that er Yes. becomes inherent I think. Er there don't seem to be quite a lot of that any more. No. They've had it a bit too easy I think. Absolutely. Well the only thing that as far as I'm concerned erm er Richard is is when would you like to come on the training course? Right. Erm I have as I say one other if you like self-employed business opportunity that I have been pursuing erm which erm I shall know after Tuesday of next week. Right. Erm which also sounds very interesting. Yes. What market is it in can I ask? Yeah it's erm er consultancy in er business travel. Is that a franchise or or what ? No no no no you basically the company is pulled out of the ordinary high street travel business and set up a new concept in business travel. Mm. Therefore with no overheads . Is this a new venture? It was been going for two years. Mm. Erm but they er have only done it on a localized basis. Erm you earn commission by taking clients who might spend say a hundred thousand pounds on business travel, whether it be flights trains Yes. hotels whatever. And you sign them up or when I say sign them up they're er an account is opened Mhm. for them. Right. And you can show them of between an eighteen and twenty four percent saving on their business travel. Oh I've got a suspicion I'm getting. Hello. Yep. Right. Thank you. And erm obviously I've got a lot of contacts in the industry. Erm Right. and it's something that I I I like the idea of Mm. but again like this one I need to get to know the a bit more of the ins and outs of it. I've had a preliminary meeting with them and they've asked me to go back because they're interested in me. Okay. Er and that's been fixed up to go to Wilmslow in Cheshire next Tuesday. Right. I would like the opportunity of saying yes I am very interested. Er but I would like to reserve making er a decision until after Tuesday. Now whether that's a problem to you I don't know. It would be a problem with certain people. I would say sorry in that case er you know I wouldn't you know. But with you I I'm happy to It's not I'm I'm not pursuing any other P A Y E cos I know I know which the safer bet is and that's all I'm going to say. Sure. I will make er er provisional with you. Okay. So that you can come. I will go through all the the bits and pieces here now and then it's all done. Mhm. If you phone me up and say, Yes I want to come it's all done . Well that's what I was going to say if if we could make it that the training course came after next week and not next week then No I'll tell you when the next course is for erm schools seventh the week commencing the seventh of February. In fact which is just right isn't it? Yes. Yes? Yeah. Okay. So I'm gonna go through right And is that three or five days? I've done I'll just go Okay. through in a minute it's three days. Yeah. Date is the twenty sixth yes? Yes. It is isn't it yes. Okay on Friday the seventh. This is on the assumption that everything is going ahead all right? Friday the six fourth that would be won't it? Yes. All right. Prior to this you would have given us a phone call okay? Mhm. But on Friday the fourth erm I'd like you to er if ev the best thing is to read through this Okay. Tells you all about where we do our erm oh er beg your pardon four day training of course I should've Four days. Four beg your pardon. Okay. Yes that's the trouble with having six companies. They all have slightly different er variations. Okay it's er this goes all into the detail. Erm the Fernlea I'll tell you what I've got here the Fernlea Hotel is where the course is held and you stay and the Fernlea is somewhere around here. There's a pier here which we've put on the new map erm and this is south promenade. Okay? Fernlea's somewhere around there if that helps you. We pick up, there's the details there. If you read that we need you to phone into that lady and it's Vivienne. No. Okay. I can you can't. I can't. Not yet. You come over on the Sunday evening because we do start prompt at eight thirty on the Monday morning. Okay. That's the hotel. Right. Okay. This is all for you to take away. If you please read that. I will. You phone me erm whatever your commitment is er to either us or the other people. Mhm. And then if you follow that procedure I'd be grateful. Okay. We'll pay your travel costs. Right. To we'll pick up all your tab but er we'll pay this separately. Mhm. Just need you to sign Oh you want me to sign. Yes just sign to say you know about that. There's a copy there for you. The other thing I've got to do is take a photograph. Oh god is my hair okay I've been out in the wind you know . No it's all right. All I all I ask you to do is smile. We get some great glum looking photographs. Oh I I'm going to vet that . Okay, thanks. Right colleagues, could we turn to a period of rule amendments and er general motions now. Rule thirty seven on branches, er motion seventy seven, rule amendment to be moved by the Midland and East Coast region. And colleagues, could I start and remind delegates that if there are seconders or additional speakers on this side, if they would use this rostrum to my right, if they would use this rostrum. Now there are chairs available for additional speakers so if they would come down it would certainly expedite the business of congress. Thanks President. President, conference, Ken Midlands and East Coast region moving motion seventy seven, otherwise known as go-lightly. Conference, this particular motion calls for an increase of members required to form a branch or be allowed to continue as a branch should it lose members. An increase from fifty to a hundred members would allow greater flexibility for our regional committees in the regions to decide whether they allow the branch to continue or to amalgamate with another branch. Therefore the increase in numbers to a hundred, for this particular rule, seems to be a logical move, as a branch with less than fifty would be unrepresentative of the G M B both from a democracy point of view and an administration point of view where cost plays an enormo important role. With the document being debated this week, we should beware of making branches accountable to its members, and increasing the numbers to one hundred gives us a greater base to work from than fifty. Therefore conference, please support, I move. Thanks very much colleagues. Is that formally seconded? Formally seconded. are recommending you to accept motion seventy seven colleagues, all those in favour against, that's carried. Thanks very much. Pensions and social security benefits, I call composite motion twenty six, women and state pensions. G M B Scotland to move and London region to second, priority in debates Northern region. Okay, if the seconder and additional speakers would come down to the front, please. Conference, chair, Mary , Falkirk , G M B Scotland. We have argued for many years that the present discrimination on the grounds of sex and state pensions and retirement age is unjustifiable. A much wider consultation process must be initiated, before far-reaching changes can be agreed. The whole question of an adequate income in retirement can be achieved, and changes necessary to enable them must be worked at. Few, if any, of the media commentators nowadays for the status quo. The need for equalization of state pension ages seems to be all but agreed. The main focus has centred round the age at which the basic state pension and SERPS are available and whether some flexibility is desirable. For this reason we will argue for current level basic state pensions and SERPS from the age of sixty, to both sexes. The present sixty, sixty five regime is discriminating against men, but when in reality it is the women who are in the much inferior position. The fact that families when one woman in six retires with an entitlement to a full basic pension, based on her own level of payments, speaks volumes. Even when members of occupational schemes, women's length of membership generally means that the level of benefit payable will be inferior to men. Many people are unaware of that fact. The fact that the basic state pension is not a universal benefit, but is based on the level of payment,. You have to earn enough for long enough, ninety percent of your working life, to qualify. Consequently we will argue that for the very least we need current levels of basic state pension and SERPS, and see that they are available to both men and women from the age of sixty. The conclusions are, discrimination must end at the earliest opportunity for both men and women changes should include a full and p proper consultation exercise. For those in occupational schemes there should be a provision that if a person so wishes, they should be allowed to work to sixty five without any loss of pension rights. I move. Congress, president, Ed , Westminster trade union political staff's branch of the London region, seconding the composite. Congress, this composite is about a deceit, a deceit by the Tory government, of men and women, over their working lives women in particular who have been contributing their stamp all their working lives and are now being told that there is a danger that they will not get their state pensions at sixty. Conference, it is absolutely vital that those people are protected. We must ensure that we campaign as hard as possible, that sixty becomes the state pension age for all our members, men and women. Congress, if as a trade union, and if as a labour movement, you stop going forward in campaigning, there's only one thing that happens you start to go backwards, because this government will always try and take from working class people, all the time. We must campaign strongly to ensure that men and women still have a state pension that isn't just a pittance at sixty. I second. President, congress, John , supporting composite twenty six. We trust the C E C to campaign vigorously against the Tory Party proposal of increasing women's pension age to sixty five. This Tory proposal must be seen by one of the most unacceptable, and unprincipled acts of this government. Look at what they've done given nine billion to their wealthy friends to move them into private pensions supported pension holiday because company funds are so big increased national insurance so we're all paying more,even though we get less and compare this with the disadvantage, women first. Very few enjoy a personal pension very few enjoy an occupational scheme the greater majority gain nothing from SERPS only one in six receive a full state pension. So you have on the one hand, handouts to the rich on the other hand, money taken from the poor. A typical underhand, unprincipled Tory policy, wouldn't you say? A policy supported by their backing group, the C B I both in the game of using frightening tactics in attempt to prove their case, saying whilst they would like to equalize pensions to sixty, it simply can't be afforded, claiming it would cost upwards of forty billion, and adding the usual, this cost will damage the economy. Whilst we all agree, they know how to damage the economy we also know that the cost of equalizing at sixty would be no more than ten billion. Now it's funny, but same amount as they have spent on persuading their wealthy friends to take out private pensions. Congress, we are bound to come to only one conclusion that equalizing pensions to sixty will be of benefit to all people, and the Tories are definitely not supporting that approach. and those in advantageous positions, the rest of us just don't count. Support our motion, don't let this unprincipled lot get away with this policy. Let's tell the people and do this with an effective national campaign. Thank you. Colleagues, could I just advise congress at this stage what we're, we've gotta do erm, and I think this will form the basis of what we're trying to do to expedite business during the course of the week. We're gonna take groups of motions together, and in this particular section, the next one will be motion three six nine which will have movement seconded, motion three seventy, three seven one, three seven two and then composite twenty seven. Now there are several of those that will require a statement being accepted by the executive but there'll be a statement on behalf of the C E C, and there's at least one where there'll be a qualification. So, at the end of the debate I'm gonna ask the C E C speaker, in this case it will be the general secretary, John , to repl reply to the whole of the er, the debate. So, not saying that will be the situation in every case, but certainly there will be a number of occasions during the week, er when that kind of arrangement will apply, and hopefully it will help us to get through the business a little bit, er, quicker. I now call the mover of motion three six nine, standing charges to be moved by the Lancashire region and if there is a seconder, if he or she could come down. President, conference with the introduction of V A T on gas and electric bills, this motion becomes even more important. It was bad enough when pensioners had to pay the standing charges on their gas, water and telephone bills. It is even worse now that they have got to pay V A T on those bills as well. These pensioners have to pay standing charges whether or not they use the service, just to ensure that they can use the service when needed. The telephone is very often the only link these loyal citizens have with the outside world they can no longer walk in safety to the local telephone box to make their calls, and even if they could, when they get there it is out of order. It is pensioners in particular who paid for British Telecom when it was owned by the State their taxes ensured that the telephone system in the U K, it became amongst the best in the world. We owe it to these people and British Telecom owes it to these people just let them pay for what they use get rid of the standing charge. I move. seconder. Formally seconded, thanks very much. Motion three seventy television licences. Lancashire region to move again I know. Well, up twice in the first day er, sorry, Bernie , Lancashire region moving motion three seventy. President, conference, as I say, up twice in the first day it's a cracking conference that starts with motion three seventy and works backwards to number one it's better than Thunderbirds really. Seriously though, motions like this one have been debated over and over again. Anybody who disagrees with giving the pensioners the right to watch T V without having to pay a licence charge is either the English football manager hoping to God nobody sees the team playing, or is a Norwegian player wanting to protect our old older members of the community from an early grave. Let's not be tight let's not begrudge those who have paid into the system all their lives a bit back. Let them watch television if they want when they want free of charge. I move. President, congress I've gotta up and say to you, I had, I've had to borrow the wife's glasses this morning cos I left mine in the car Could we have your name Oh, you certainly can, Richard, it's Bill , Lancashire region, er, seconding motion three seventy, television licences. My television licence is a colour television and it costs me eighty three pound for this year. In nineteen eighty seven, it cost fifty seven pound this has increased by almost twenty nine per cent in the last five years. When the government broke in, broke the link between the R P I and the old age pension, they must have known that this kind of rise would not be paid by our pensioners. Many of the millions of unemployed will also have trouble in finding the cash for this particular commitment . many would also object to this kind of contribution to John 's wage packet. The television, for many old people who are afraid to go out at night, an important link with the outside world and the sources of ent entertainment. Many of the youngsters unemployed cannot afford to go out seeking entertainment and a television is an important part to them. This motion has been before this congress before and I am still pleased to be here to second this motion. John Major's classless society is a pipe dream for without money there are no grounds for freedom of choice or opportunity. It is er, it is closer to a nasty video let's make things a little more compassionate, for those who are out of work, or are elderly. Pensioners who have given a lifetime's service to the nation should not be asked to pay for a T V licence, and those out of work through no fault of their own, except for a government policy. Congress I second. Motion three seven one, pensions, Southern region to move. Thank you, Dick. Charlie , Southern region and a pension fund trustee. We have heard quite a lot, colleagues, about pensions and pension schemes over the last eighteen months perhaps we have to actually thank Mr Maxwell for raising the issue, even if those pensioners he cheated won't thank him. There are even now other issues on the pensions debate we have employers like Telecom using pension funds to fund redundancies we now even have the government looking to see if they can get hold of pension fund money in British Rail and in the Coal Board to see if they can also fund job losses. These issues have been well raised and aired over the last few months I would like to now raise another issue that I don't think has been publicized enough that is the issue of under-provision in old age. This was very common in the past and I'm sure many shop stewards here who've dealt with redundancies in the past, know about the poor members who get quite a nice lump sum redundancy, but in fact, they've only been in pension schemes a short while, so they can't provide for themselves in old age, once they've spent the redundancy money. Now that has been addressed, particularly by the G M B, and we've campaigned to have pension funds in employ with employers to be open to all, so everybody can join pension funds. We've got a number of good pension funds that ordinary working people can join, but the issue that has come about since compulsory competitive tendering privatization is those members that've been in pension funds for maybe twenty, twenty five years now they're out on the open job market with the wonderful privatized world that we live in, with a free market, and they can't afford to make adequate pension provision for themselves. This time bomb is ticking away, colleagues, and in about twenty years' time, we'll be back to where we were we'll have a lot of people who've got small pensions, based on their previous employment with a health authority or a local authority, British Gas or the electricity companies then they've had to go out on the open market and they will be under-funded and have inadequate pension when they retire. But what they will have is a small pension that will be preventing them getting State Benefits and they will be in the poverty trap. Now I don't believe that this issue has been aired wide enough it's understood by a lot of people what the problems are going to be these problems aren't gonna occur in the next ten years, they will happen in twenty years' time. Now I believe it's the duty of the G M B and the trade union movement to first publicize the problem then we need a campaign and a strategy to avoid it, and that is going back to decent pension funds. Now the State has already got a problem because in the next century, it will have insufficient people at work to pay for old age pensions we already know Mr Portillo is doing a pension review and is looking about only targeting it to the needy at the bottom well that means a lot of people like you and me will miss out on State pensions. If we'd been forced like myself I believe in a couple of years' time, I will not be able to enjoy the pension fund that I'm in at the moment we will have a problem, and we need to deal with that problem, and we need to raise the issue now and have a strategy, and I think it's the G M B's to take a leading role in looking at this. Thank you. Thank you Giles Is three seven one seconded? Er, it's formally seconded, brother. Congress, president Dennis , Southern region. Er, as Charlie just pointed out, it is of great concern and it's a time bomb that is definitely ticking away. Having been employed now for British Gas for the last twenty five years er, I've got seventeen years of pensionable service, which has only just been negotiated through the G M B since nineteen eighty to nineteen ninety three and now it is probably one of the better pensions, company pension schemes, in the country. Now, I'm fortunate, I've actually got seventeen years come July when the M, M M C reports back on British Gas,might split it up into seven, thirteen, fifteen different companies. Where is my pension fund going then? I'm gonna need a pension when I reach the age of sixty, sixty five I recommend that we support this motion and vigorously campaign for pensions for everybody on an equal status. I second. Motion three seven two, pension funds, to be moved by Lancashire region. Terence , Lancashire region, moving motion three seven two. Congress the motion is calling for changes in the law to protect workers' pension rights. It is clearly unacceptable that workers' pensions are open to such abuse by the employers. It is not satisfactory that workers' pension funds remain vulnerable to the predators. The law must be strengthened and operate on an open basis, rather than under a cloak of secrecy. Employers are using pension fund contribution holidays to boost profits rather than improve benefits. Brothers and sisters, the Maxwell scandal was only the tip of the iceberg inadequa of the iceberg in, in exposing the inadequac inadequacies of the current pension laws excuse me . John remember the importance of winning the seven demands in the pension charter the key one was pensions equal pay, and therefore members need majority control of the trustees that run the scheme. Let's stop the rip-off. I move. Mr President, delegates, Graham , Lancashire region, seconding motion three seven two. I endorse the need for, and the urgency of, our union to spearhead the campaign prevent the contributions of our members being used as a corporate slush fund. The reluctance of this government to introduce legislation only strengthens my belief that the scale of the Maxwellian type fraud is far greater than any of us ever imagined. For the prospect of a retirement pension for all those presently under fifty years of age is looking distinctly forlorn we must protect the pension rights of all contributing members we must insist that trustees are elected from the shop floor and not appointed by some faceless director who may not even reside in this country. We must never again allow, now that we're all too painfully aware of the consequences any company to cheat and swindle any working man or woman after a lifetime's toil from the right to a happy and dignified and financially secure retirement. I second the motion. Thank you very much, colleague. Composite motion twenty seven, pensions fund law, Lancashire region to move and second. Duncan , Lancashire region, moving composite er twenty seven. Er it's a bit difficult coming on the end of a debate cos everyone's nicked your speech by the time you get here. I mean I want to start with, with pensions pay and er, basically what's happening is that everyone's suffering pay cuts er and er th th what the government is doing is, first of all is attacking the State pension scheme er, and it's allowing, er, employers to continue to rip-off occupational pension schemes and er since it's pay, and it's our pay, we wanna make sure we control it and I don't see why the employers should be allowed to continue to exploit er, us both at one, both in terms of the pay we get now and the pay we get when we retire, whether it be at sixty whether it be er, whenever we wish to er retire and er, I think it's very important if the government is er committed to crime prevention, that it actually starts doing something about those for, those, those employers, and Maxwell has, has been er referred to already, he's just the tip of this very big iceberg er, and er, up and down the country, people are suffering substantial thefts of pay er employers are systematically organizing wages snatches, that's what this er pension fraud is all about, and it's about time that our government actually got round er and tackled this very important corporate crime issue that's actually going on at the moment and er, I think that it's very important that we ensure that we're involved in er managing our own pension sch p pension funds, and therefore we should be pushing through demands of the er th the, the charter for pension fund democracy, and ensuring er that the government actually listens to what we're saying, and actually er comes up with answers why we cannot have the right to control our pay cos I can I can't see an any reason that they come back and say why democracy, why they can't, why, why they won't allow us to have a greater say and control our own pension funds and that's I think is a legitimate demand that we should be campaigning for, up and down the country. So, er, in terms of composite twenty seven, it's a very simple resolution, and it's basically saying we should be supporting the er demands of the er campaign for pension fund democracy and the charter, and that we should abandon the committee takes those on, those demands, and er, we should be campaigning for that very very important issue, which is affecting increasingly millions of people up and down this country, not just the p the er the Maxwell pensioners. Now we'll see what the government does in response to er all their friends who are going bankrupt in the Lloyds er cos er that, in that scandal, on the one hand you've got the government trying to save its neck with its forty four MPs who've had their, had their hand in the till at the same that they're doing that, they won't actually meet the just demands of people who've worked all their lives to actually have some sort of security in the future, and that's the ol er sort of double standards they're gonna try and er and use to get off the hook on that one because they owe people in this country a decent, we should have the right to a decent pension and security, employment and er with this, this campaign, we should be, we should be concentrating on as a major issue for this union in the forthcoming year. Thank you, I move. Kish , Lancashire region, seconding composite twenty seven. President, congress we know that the Tory government, Tories' er agenda is to abolish State pension, thus more and more people will rel have to rely on private, and company pension. We need to have strict laws protecting our members' pension funds. The media has highlighted Maxwell's abuse of pension funds to prop up his crumbling businesses there's potentially hundreds of employers like Maxwell. Within our Oldham branch there have been two recent cases of such abuse one being Hartleys where an employer took sixty thousand pounds out of the pension fund and put it into Hartleys, which at the time was in financial difficulties. Subsequently the company went into liquidation and left our pension holders with less than meagre pensions. So it's imperative that we can achieve to get trustees onto pension fund bo pension fund bodies to stop er employers misusing the pension fund and finally we commend the G M B's submission to the good re good committee and hope that the G M B's submission becomes law in the not distant future. I I second Well as I indicated earlier, colleagues, I now call the general secretary to respond to the debate. John , general secretary, replying on behalf of the C E C. Well we used to think whatever else was gonna change, at least the pensions were secure but as this bate debate shows not any more. Duncan said it, I think there is now a two-pronged attack on our pensions. Unscrupulous employers mean-minded government. Every week brings a new pension scandal. Kish has just given you one example I'll give you one of the others. Haywards Food. The pension scheme has a massive surplus so what does the management do? They take five million pounds out of the scheme as a refund they give themselves a five year contribution holiday and not one penny of that improvement goes to the members. So the Inland Revenue gets a bonus the company gets a claw-back and the members get nothing at all. And the G M B demands that when the good committee report it makes such behaviour illegal. As motion twenty seven has said so clearly it's the members' money. We support motion three seven two, on the basis that the majority of trustees should be representatives of the pension fund members and any surplus should be spent not by the employer at the employer's own behest, but by agreement. After all we don't allow employers to take money out of our bank accounts and they have no right to take money out of our pension funds! Security of pensions is fundamental to a civilized society. We don't believe that pension rights should be undermined by privatization or by C C T. We agree with motion three seven one but add one qualification the best way to provide protection for members threatened in this way is to force the government to honour its obligations under European law and push for pensions to be included in the regulations. And then there's the second prong of the attack the government offensive. Make no mistake about it by all the processes of the government propaganda machine by kite-flying and carefully placed links, the government is trying to soften us up to the idea of increasing the State pension age for women to sixty five. They prattle on about equality, when really what they mean is a down-grading of women's rights. We've had a lot about politics this morning, and if the Labour Party wants to mobilize working women many of them who didn't vote Labour at the last election here is a ready made campaign to take into the next election. Mary, Ed, John they all said it. Composite twenty six is right. We should reject this government claptrap and campaign for a pension age of sixty for everyone men and women, with proper protected rights for women. Lastly a word about our members in the coal industry which Charlie mentioned. They have the worst of both worlds a government who wants to attack their pension rights and an employer willing to do the government's bidding. Very strange story this. Heseltine had to find a subsidy to stop the coal revolt by Tory backbenchers a short-term subsidy to the coal industry. That subsidy cost, remember this figure, five hundred million. The government then told the Coal Board to hold back nearly five hundred million that it was due to pay into the Coal Industry pension scheme. So it looks as if our coal members are being forced to fund the government subsidy there can't be much nastier behaviour than to pay your own money to get the government off the hook of making your own members and your colleagues redundant. Of course, the government denies it all. In a letter to me, government minister Tim says better quote this exactly because er, government ministers always tell the whole and complete truth, we know that,experience the issue of the pension fund money, he says, is quite separate from the subsidy that the Coal Industry which will be financed by the Exchequer. Of course it is . it just happens to be the same amount at exactly the same time but how nice of him to explain and how silly of us to be taken in by this string of coincidences. But just to be on the safe side, we're taking the Coal Board to court. We don't yet know whether the Coal Board's action is illegal but sure as hell it ought to be. So the advice from the C E E, C, C E C is support composites twenty six and twenty seven support motions three six nine and three seventy support three seven one and three seven two with the qualifications given support the campaign for pension fund democracy and let's work hard to clean up the pension scandal in Britain. Thank you very much. As the general secretary indicated, colleagues, all the motions are being accepted, so I now put them to the vote. All those in favour of composite motion twenty six against that's carried. Motion three six nine, all those in favour against that's carried. Motion three seventy, all those in favour against that's carried. Motion three seven one, all those in favour against that's carried. Motion three seven two, all those in favour against that's carried. Composite motion twenty seven, all those in favour against and that's carried. Thanks very much indeed colleagues. We now turn to the benefit systems and in this particular group, colleagues, we're gonna call the following motions motion three eighty, motion three eight one, motion three eight two, motion three eight three and motion three eight four. It will be the same procedure and then I'll ask for John er to a statement on behalf of the central executive council. I now call motion three eighty, privatization of S S P and S M P, Lancashire region to move. Willy , Lancashire region. President, congress I ask this congress to do all in their power to campaign on behalf of all sick members and pregnant women regarding the breakdown in the control over sickness and maternity benefits employers are depriving their employees of millions of pounds since the privas privatization of the benefits. Accounts are no longer controlled so the system has broken down, so says the auditor general Sir John . Sir John, who investigated whether payments were correct, found errors in one in three cases and two areas . There were also large underpayments th these amounted to hundr four hundred and fifteen thousand pound in sickness benefits. The privatization which handed over administration of benefit payments to employers was the brainchild of Sir Norman do I need to say more? In nineteen ninety one, Sir John stated that the average overpay for maternity benefit was two hundred and forty pound per person. I ask you do you know anyone that has been overpaid? More like underpaid. So I ask this congress to watch closely this benefits agency, and let's make sure that the sick and maternity grants get paid correctly to what they are entitled to. I move. Thanks very much. Will the seconder seconder for three eighty formally seconded, thanks very much. Motion three eight one, unemployment benefit, Lancashire region to move Is it formally moved? Formally moved. Formally seconded? Formally seconded. Thanks very much. Motion three eight two, benefits, Northern region to move. President, congress Alan , Northern region, moving motion three eight two, benefits. Congress fourteen years of Tory rule have taught our people many bitter lessons. They have witnessed jobs destroyed services slashed opportunities wasted. In no area, colleagues, is the despair caused by Tory mismanagement more abundantly clear than in the area of welfare benefits. As our economy has declined as our recession has turned to a slump increasingly it is the low-paid, the sick, the disabled and the unemployed who have been forced to pick up the tab for the Tory policy failure. Congress, as we all know, the latest Tory plans have once again hit the least well off. To cut entitlement to unemployment benefit to tax invalidity benefit and to mean test benefits congress such a tax most vulnerable in our society must be opposed by the trade union movement. Motion three eight two calls upon the C E C to adopt a clear policy to resist the attacks on the poor and to launch a campaign to, to defend our people. I urge congress to support motion three eight two and to demonstrate clearly our belief the least well off in our society should not be forced to pay the price of Tory failure re to regenerate the nation's industry. Congress, I move. President, congress, Gerry , Northern region seconding motion three eight two. Congress as we all know, the failed economic policies of the government has pushed our nation to the very edge of bankruptcy. Our nation's annual deficit budget now stands at fifty million pounds. Against such a background, colleagues, our nation has only one choice get rid of Major's mafia first! We need to invest we need to encourage research and development we need to provide quality training. In short, congress we need to build out of recession because only by building and by investment can we reduce unemployment and cut the nation's budget deficit. Faced with such a stark choice, however the Tories, as we all know, have found another way they plan, colleagues, to cut benefits to reduce entitlement to unemployment benefits and to d tax invalidity. That congress is an insult it's like making a victim of crime pay compensation to the muggers. Colleagues the G M B should resist the tax on the poor on the victims of Tory policy. I urge you, support motion three eight two. Mr President, I second. Motion three eight three, reduced T V licences er Lancashire region to move. Bernie , Lancashire region, moving motion three eight three. President, congress well, third time lucky, eh? All my motions on the first day. Wherever you go nowadays, be it swimming, the pictures, fitness centres, or pop concerts they all appreciate that the unemployed cannot afford to pay the full charge. They have all introduced a discount scheme to enable those unfortunate enough not to have a job not to have a proper job the same access to all these facilities as those in work. For the vast majority of these people, unemployment is a direct consequence of a government who only cares about those who have, and could not care less about those who have not. When you are unemployed, there is not much left after the job centre and the twenty third job application form to occupy your time. Television is at least one escape and just like all the other trivial pastimes, should allow the unemployed to participate at a reduced rate. I move. Mr President congress Bill , Lancashire region. this is gonna be done from the heart, there's no, nothing being put there in front, because when you see what I've got and what my branch has achieved working with unemployed people your branch earner and that lady up there,, twenty seven years in this union we started this football team, it was this dream that I had and I come from Salford, which is not far from which is devastated with drugs burnt out cars people robbing each other, and of course ,. Just across the river we've got Manchester City. This gentleman behind me, and myself I beg you pardon, did I say Manchester City? I thought meant Manchester United. This lad behind me, Dick, and myself, we're both City fans. Don't tell everybody for God's sake They're proud of it, never mind what you said before,Unite Uni City wouldn't do what? Give over! I've got a piece of artwork on the floor that I never thought I'd see. It's called the Tripyer Shield and it's a local amateur thing Eccles and District and to win it it's like winning the F A Cup and this G M B team that we started we lost about three or four matches and we started losing the players, so when you don't lock the doors and you'd end up with about seven players and you'd think is it worth bothering? Course it's worth bothering because a lot of young men that was unemployed come down to the school where I'm the caretaker and they said, we know that you're running short is there any chance of getting in on the scene? So they got in on the scene and I seen young men that was walking the streets that had nowt to do put a football kit on with G M B written across the front turn out and become super human beings, you never seen nowt like it, they were so pleased to associate with like something like that. I just want to end up by saying I know it's all about reduction for unemployed and the telephone this union has worked very hard with the community in Salford throughout the country if you just give me a moment, Mr President, I'll get this unclear Is this, is this what's known as poetic licence, Bill? Did you say telephone or television then? television. Oh, television, right If that's real silver then I'll have that, It is real silver. Colleagues, this is the G M B at work in the Lancashire region working with the unemployed. Thanks. Thanks very much indeed, Bill. Motion three eight four, telephone assistance for the elderly G M B Scotland to move. And if there is a seconder, if he or she could come down please. Morning team, congress Jackie , Scotland. It is to the shame of this Tory government that er er our senior citizens have to struggle to feed and clothe themselves and to try to keep warm, and as inadequate pensions that they receive from this government if you compare the way in the other European countries what they get and what the British government gives to our old age pensioners, our senior citizens they're more they're worse off than actually second class citizens. But over and above this is a terrible fact that despite what they are already putting up with, they've got more they've got the seventeen percent coming on their . If they're a pound over, they've still got to pay the money. Why are they doing this? If they heard a knock at the door or if they heard shouting and bawling in the street, but there's nothing they can do what we're asking for here is and I'm asking for support is a phone to the people who cannot afford one whereas if they hear something they can phone the police, or they can phone the support unit because are two people staying together in this day and age where they cannot walk in the streets they're attacked even in broad daylight going to get their pensions never mind at night-time. What I'm asking for is that we keep this approach up to fight this government to give er our senior citizens a better chance in this life, cos a lot of us here would not be here today if it wasn't for the senior citizens who brought us up. What we're asking for is is a phone to the people who can't afford it to the police stations. It would only cost the the B T very small and a telephone unit. Now up in Glasgow, we've got a Strathclyde Labour authority who's actually putting schemes like this in. If it's alarm systems if the alarm goes off they phone the person in the house. If the woman answers citizen in Britain not just in certain areas, and I move for support. Is there a seconder for three eight four? Formally seconded? Thank you very much. I now call John to put the Yep. President, conference Mal , Lancashire region. Er I come up to draw the President's attention erm to a problem we have within the delegation and that is that when er Dick called the mover of resolution three eight one in the name of the Lancashire region John who was going to move the resolution was in fact sat in his seat within the delegation. Unfortunately, John does suffer from a hearing defect which er causes him loss of hearing and apparently when he puts his hearing aid in the speakers are causing some interference and a whistle within his ear. He's got the hearing aid out and unfortunately he didn't hear the President call motion three eight one, and in view of that I jumped in and formally moved it to erm save the motion falling and I would ask you with your indulgence, if John could come along and move motion three eight one. Thank you. Well I mean the motion actually has been moved, I do take the point, I mean it's a fair point, but erm not sure where John's sat sat at the back, yes where you going, John? Did yeah . Did somebody tell him I was speaking? Okay, well look we are we are a little ahead of time and it, we're certainly gonna complete the business but, so on this particular occasion providing he doesn't wreck the bloody rostrum of course. Right John. Mr President, congress Is the loop system working or not? I knew he was gonna ask me that! I knew he was gonna say that! Well Three eight one you're on, John. Mr John told me last year he paid a lot of money for all this and it's still not bloody working! But I'll get on to my resolution which is unemployment benefit and I'll say this it's a bloody disgrace and I mean it. And for unions to stand by and it's bloody unbelievable. You work forty years of your life you're made redundant all that time you paid insurance, tax and after twelve months they've got the gall to take money you paid all your life off your unemployment and throw you on income. That's all I'm saying. Thanks John. The motion was formally seconded, colleagues, so I now call John to put the C E C position John. I was hoping, Dick, I'd get one with no light on! John replying to these resolutions on behalf of the C E C. Before I kick off I to reply to them I put at the top of my scribbled notes three words poverty hardship and loneliness and I think those three words typify and sum up what the majority of these resolutions are all about in this retarded society that we've lived in er under in the last fourteen years. If I can pick up with motion three eight zero which refers to the privatation of sat statutory sick pay and statutory maternity pay the C E C would like reference back on this for the very basis that the point is they do still remain State benefits and those who qualify them, for them, are legally entitled to do so. We ask for reference back so that a closer look can be taken at these problems in the administration of the benefits. When I move on to three eight one, three eight two there's a lot of things been said about these benefits this morning which doesn't leave much left for me but looking at the situation of the way this Tory government has in the last thirteen years, certainly since nineteen eighty two crucified the benefits paid genuinely to people is in itself a crime upon society and it reminds me of the the words of the song it's the rich that get the gravy and it's the poor that get the blame and nothing, but nothing has changed since those words were written many many years ago. Since nineteen eighty two when they took away the related earnings from the unemployment benefit they have introduced a further nine retrograde steps to the plight of the unemployed and now the proposals as has already been pointed out they now have a look, because there's a fifty billion pound shortfall at how they can best tackle the sick and make them pay, as well as people who are struggling to keep a roof over their head. We ask you to accept these two resolutions. On the reduced T V licence fees well I think we all recognize that everybody who's unemployed isn't living in the lap of luxury drinking ten double whiskies a day hitting the racecourses with a top hat and tail on the only pleasure, especially people who've got young children to bring up is the television and such is the price of the licence nowadays that in order to sustain that other things in the family are going short. This again is an indictment on our society when people are being forced into that position again the C E C asks you to accept this. On the standing charges regarding motion three eight four for the rent-free telephones for our senior citizens it is really an extension of three seventy but the C E C asks to while you, while you accept this resolution ask for a qualification on the motion. We say it is unclear why free phones should only be issued for incoming and outgoing calls and for nine nine nine calls. What we are saying there are other emergencies and I get down to the word loneliness now is there any reason why senior citizens shouldn't have the facility whereby they can make telephone calls if those, they so desire, to members of the family who in many instances they haven't seen for long periods of time? There are many many people who live in houses on their own can't get out and again it's an indictment on our society when you hear and read about the telephone profits that er that B T are making. I don't consider it is wrong in this day and age that it is wrong to try to uplift and give to our retired people, every decent condition that is going in order to enable them to live their, the way they are entitled to do. On that basis, chair and having got this off my chest I'm gonna get me bucket and spade, and I'm gonna go to the beach this afternoon. Thank you. John, we've got business this afternoon. Right, colleagues, er, motion three eighty, the C E C as John has indicated are seeking reference. Does the mover accept reference? Congress agree? Thanks very much. Motion three, three eight one C E C are recommending your acceptance, all those in favour against that's carried. Motion three eight two C E C are recommending you to accept it, all those in favour against that's carried. And motion three eight four C E C are recommending you to accept it, all those in favour against and that's carried. Colleagues, that in fact concludes the morning's business, we're about twelve minutes ahead of time. Just before we break can I remind all women delegates, officers and guests there will be the reception to be held at twelve thirty to two o' clock in the Lord Mayor's banqueting hall, in the Guildhall. The bad news is it's a cash bar attendance by ticket only, please do your best to be there. Now colleagues, refreshments and the exhibition halls are stationed in the north and south reception areas on the first floor of the Guildhall. Can I please urge you to visit the exhibition hall during the course of congress. Congress stands adjourned till two P M this afternoon. Thank you very much. Hello? Right thank you. Well Gerald, what can I do for you today sir? Well not too bad. You know, a wee bit of numbness in my hand you know . Still still having Er I need the tablets for er an awful lot of boils you know . Are you? Aye. Right. You know how I take Tetracycline quite regularly Mhm. you know and I Aye. And I knew I was coming up you know. Well that's be some I'm gonna give you a slight change till we get your skin clear and then we'll we'll get you back on your after that Gerry. Aye. I'm due I'm meant to go to a diabetic clinic again, you know in Strathclyde you know. Right. . . ninety five. My line'll be due now Doc, can you give me another line please. . I was just You know I used to always maybe take one and if I got bad I took maybe two a day you know. Aye. Doc. Use these other ones. Mhm. Give give this the Tetracycline a wee rest. Yeah. And then we'll get you back onto them after five or six days, Gerald. That'll give your skin a good chance. some of that Dr . . . how long far away. There's way that I'm gonna trust them for another five or six weeks yet. I know I know what they like. They'll all go their Summer holidays. Any time. Yeah. That's true. There we go Gerald, that'll keep you right. Right Dr . now. Cheerio now. Are you er who have you got then? Okay who is it? Get real Okay. Cos I've got one tonight haven't I? Anywhere you wanna sit lads. Next to each other ideally should moving around now. Right Where you gonna go?my seat. So who's gonna go first out of you two? Yeah I'll go first. Right. Give us your form then er and in your own time and your own pace. Just gonna get a quick little refresher. Just a quick refresher , I dunno what page it's on. ? That would be a good refresher for you. No it's alright I've got that in my head, okay I'll, it's alright Hi Mike. Hiya. How you doing? Very well thank you. Okay. All we've been through this evening Yes. are you quite happy with it? Yes, quite interesting, yes. Quite interesting? And you're happy, ah right. Yes. Okay right that's good. Do you remember when I said er as we were going through I said there were one or two things that you perhaps could help me with? Yes you did mention that, yes. Yeah? Well I'm, as a matter of fact before that I actually said that er this, all this that I am doing on your behalf is completely free of charge You did. I did didn't I? Yes. Well it's a bit of a lie actually er there's a fee involved in all the preparation and all the work I've done er and what do you think the fee's worth? How much do you think it's worth? Well I don't know you didn't mention this earlier did you? Er that's true, as I said I, I lied a little bit, I, I failed to tell you the cost of the fee. How much do you think it's worth? Well I don't know. You don't know? Alright let me tell you it's not actual money, the help will come in the form of er recommendations. ah yes. Yeah? Er I would appreciate it very very much indeed Mike if er you know you could recommend me to one or two people you know, open minded like yourself who I can sit with, take a couple of er half an hour of their time like I've done with you, show them what the services are. Well I don't think I know anybody that would be interested really. Yeah? Erm as we were going through and we talked about a will, you said there there's somebody you knew who would be able to, you know, who you'd like to carry out your wishes if you were not here to carry them out yourself er I think it was, was it er John? Oh yes, yes. Yeah? You know have you got his phone number? Er yes okay I can give you that, yes. Great that's okay right, and is your, is your brother-in-law ? Yes my brother-in-law yes. Right right right right and does he live locally? Yes but I'm not sure, I think I'd rather phone him first if Ah in fact I'd appreciate that very very much indeed Mike, I, in fact I'll tell you give him a ring, tell him that you've given me his, the telephone number and he should expect that I'll give him a call in the next week Okay then, yes okay then. That's terrific. Okay. Erm is there anyone else er as open minded as your brother-in-law? No I can't think of anybody at the moment. You can't think. You play cricket don't you? I've been known to have the odd game, yes. Right and er ? Er there's about twelve other guys. Right. Course naturally as in the service this, this cost, this for yourself ? Perhaps er they could take up services. the guys you play cricket with, what are their names? You want all twelve do you? I wouldn't mind! I'm a greedy person as you can see, look at the size of me. I, I'll speak to them first and I'll, I'll er when, when, when you come back with some details I, I'll let you know then. Sure so at least you'll know when I come back I'm gonna ask you, thank you very much indeed. Okay. Okay? I thought you were a bit pushy So did I! prospect erm and also at the beginning there y I you, you did it in your own way, not, not, not following the script er that may be, well be previous experience you know, that Yeah. you, you, you're relying on, but you didn't really sort of go back and say, I mean I, I would use a phrase like erm you know, regards to planning your future I'm sure you found that of benefit to you tonight and get re and actually dig a bit deeper in that and say what was it in the, in, in that actual form that, that interest in your eyes. that was the one that interested you most. Yeah I was just looking for a memory jogger here, I just couldn't remember what it was Erm I didn't get anywhere that you actually reminded the prospect erm or pe potential client here why you're actually asking for referrals. Yeah. If, if he if he was open minded, I think he's happy with open minded he's happy, er said are you happy with all the preparation that we've done You didn't remind him t by not using the script you didn't Yeah. get into the point that like earlier on in the conversation I actually found it I know me and you have discussed this earlier on and I, I, I didn't find it I found it confusing to be honest with you. You did? Yeah, I, I found that you suddenly put you suddenly put me on the spot asking me for money. Yeah. That, that threw me completely. I don't know where you got, I mean is that previous, where you worked previously? No that's it I mean, look er the scenario's this Yeah? you get, it's that er in a normal conversational piece, yeah, I open my, okay it's not an Abbey Life Right. set piece Yeah the only thing no it's it's Right. so I walked in his house or her house or their house, you know, and I've said to them blah blah blah blah blah but this is what it's all about Yeah. Yeah? There's no fee involved, it's a completely free service, all I'm here to really do today is to have a chat with you, find out what you're interested in and see if we can situation, is that alright? Pursue all that pursue all that Sunday, yeah? Right. Yeah, but is that alright so he'll say yeah it's alright. I mean I thought you felt uncomfortable Mike. I thought you felt uncomfortable. I did. Yeah. Yeah. Okay fair enough that's the feeling but you the first bit, I'm justifying the Yeah yeah I mean I'm trying to give you a score here He's trying to justify it Yeah, so yeah ah you're alright so you'll say yeah course I'm alright,there's no fee, so eventually I get to the point where I said look I did say there's no fee involved but I'd, I, that's a bit of a lie because there is a fee for all the work I'm er but it comes in the form of referrals, in the form of recommendation, not actual money. No. You know I asked you to commit yourself, how much do you think it's worth for me to do all this kind of work and he's, you're confused because you think I'm actually talking about money and I take the weight off your shoulders by saying no it's not actually money, it's in the form of two or three names, people open minded like yourself, who I can sit down and discuss the whole situation with Yes, yeah all that all that part was okay erm but from the point of view of the script th th that we'd asked you to learn last night y you didn't do that now that may well work for you, the way you're actually doing it, but from a training point of view we, we're trying to look that you're actually following the, the script there. Erm so on that one that's, that's you didn't use any slang, the belief in the way you asked I think that came out, I was trying to be a prospective client rather than be the trainer cos I could see that Mike was uncomfortable and I was trying to, well okay, how, how would I well I think yeah there was a belief that you had there, I think he was er reasonably attentive, Mike, to your response? Yes. All be it wasn't, well th th th the, the response, and you didn't actually, you mentioned his brother didn't you? Yeah. At the time. He gave me his phone number But again, see again cos we're not following the actual script, the picking up and pinpointing people mentioned in earlier conversations, which you would've done if you'd've gone back to the planning the future. Yeah if I Mm. one two three four five six seven eight nine ten eleven twelve thirteen fourteen you've got fourteen which actually still gives you, would still actually give you an A in the real world. Right where's Okay that's gonna be a a C. Stick that in your locker when you go back in. Alright boss. Okay Mike it's over to you now then to Right. to your situation now, so imagine you've done the old planning of the future like we said, yeah? When I said to you earlier erm there's several ways in which you can help me now the main way you can help me is erm is er the way I do, the way I prefer to do business is by personal recommendations and you've seen the service that I can give you, you've seen, we've been through your, your personal situation, your financial situation, have you found that of benefit? Mhm. You have? Yeah. And, and that's you found it of interest to you? Yeah. Right, now what I'd like to do now is ask you for some of your, some names of friends of yours who, who I could go through the same process with them and, and establish their financial security for them too. Can you think of anybody offhand? You mentioned earlier you, you, you work with, is it you work with? Er yeah yeah. Yeah? Could you, would you like to give me his number? Well I don't actually have his er telephone number. Okay, can I contact him your place of work? Yeah you can Yeah. cos you've got the telephone number. We also was discussing earlier on that er you play squash. Er I don't actually it's er cricket. It's cricket is it? Yeah. Right. Erm have you got any, any er people there from the cricket team that I could er contact? Yeah I know er one or two persons. Yeah? You, you mentioned one was, was Steve was it? Yes. It was Steve, yeah? Steve . Yeah, Steve ? Mm. Good. And his, his phone number? Er yeah he's a good mate actually. I does he, is he a batsman or a or what? He's a bit of an all-rounder He's a bit of an all-rounder. Is he any good, is he better than you? He's a bit of a Quite good is he? Yeah that's good, good. You also mentioned that you're erm you're involved in scouting, is this right? No I'm not. Yes you are . Okay then er right, fine. That's it. Oh! That's it. Well you didn't actually revisit planning the future properly No. right? Erm remind er er and again your phraseology Mike like, well can you think of anybody, Yes I re I said that and I realized that I'd said it and I shouldn't have done. Th that, that Yeah. you know, you Yeah I er whereas if you had said positively that I'm sure you can think of a number of I asked him a question and he could answer no. Yes. But I realized I'd said it so I tried to dig myself out the hole Right well you didn't actually get any objections so you couldn't've handled them, you didn't mention about the prospect contacting the referrals prior to the being made er at the end you did actually bring up didn't you about the, the cricketer, is, is he a batsman then said he was a erm said he was a er all-rounder so you know I'll, I'll give you that You, you did actually say that I only work on, yeah Alright okay. The idea of finding out about the, the batsman was what he did in the cricket team, so that when I mentioned that I could say I don't, I don't think there was a lot of belief in the way you were actually asking Mike. I've got scripts, no enthusiastic well because of above, no. Alright, not use slang, show belief in the way he or she asks for recommendations going first which is probably not the best thing to do, be attentive you, you were reasonably attentive. Pick up and pinpoint names mentioned earlier well you did it cos you, you when asking for name and telephone number eye contact, alright there. You, I mean you weren't pushy enough I didn't think. No probably not. Yeah but again I think it all goes back to the script doesn't it? That's right, but I've also got a thing about being pushy you see. Well sorry, pushy, I mean we got push not what's the, what's the, the, the, not pushy's not the right word I'm looking for erm asking in a confident manner Yeah. that was missing, right? But the confidence comes with practice. With practice, yeah. Practice, practice, practice. ten which would actually give you a B in, in, in normal circumstances but as you know we're only allowed to give you a C. Right and there's a few notes in there as well, did I'll tick your box on your one. Do what? Er I dunno, which box is that? At the front on the front. At the top. Requires further on the job training? What C? I've ticked C have I? At, in, in the four boxes at the top Yeah. I've ticked? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right, okay then. Alright, okay lads erm first is always the most difficult as I think you'd appreciate Yeah. if you wanna sit in on another couple of guys There's a queue formed, there's a queue, right okay. Now don't forget because these boys have forgotten it, you've gotta make sure you mention the planning your future document Yeah. gonna revisit it and, and it's standard cos it all hinges, if you look at that script, what happens next all hinges on what you've actually got on there, right? Who wants to go first then? I'll go first. Alright give us your, give us your seat then and I'll Cheers. Fine, now just imagine I'm not here now for a moment. Okay. Erm so you can see actually from this fact find, from the planning the future document, there are, there was, there is a particular interest to you erm are you, are you quite happy with the figures er sorry was it erm was it that you were more or less interested in? Was that the er particular interest Yeah er cover was the one that, after we'd been through the document, I did find of be of particular interest Yeah. because er it's obviously gonna fill a gap in my financial planning that I'd not thought about in the past so I did find it particularly helpful. Y you're quite happy how we achieved those figures? Yeah. You, you're quite happy Yes I thought the explanation was er was pretty good and clear and I was happy with the way the er the premium's worked out. That's good, I'm, I'm pleased about that. Erm yeah I did mention earlier actually there was one or two ways that you could perhaps help me er one was erm I hope, I'd like to think that obviously my service has been of value to you erm I'd also like to think that you can perhaps recommend me to people you know er you did actually mention earlier erm was it Peter you work with, was it Peter who works, yeah I don't know whether yeah Peter yeah. I'm too happy about sort of passing on er you know friends' names and addresses er I don't think it's really appropriate. Yeah that's, that's okay it's just er I mean I would like to feel you would introduce me if they actually knocked on the door and came in this evening otherwise they'd think wouldn't you, I mean Well I s yeah I suppose I, I suppose I would when you put it like that, yes. And so it's Peter from? That's right, Peter he's er he, he just started work in my department about three or four weeks ago, yes. And was it Peter ? Peter, Peter That's right. Peter . Peter that's and does he actually have a home telephone number or so can I Er I'm not too sure where he lives cos he just, I think he's just new to the town but if you give him a ring erm on the 's phone number and use the Right. same extension you used to contact me originally that would find him. Okay that, that's great. I would like to think you could perhaps mention to Peter if you see him in the next couple of days, I don't know whether he pops into the office but we, it would be nice if you could if you could mention our meeting and I'll probably see him er back at the office tomorrow, I, I will mention it to him when I see him. Yeah, yeah you could certainly point out the areas that have been of interest to you and perhaps I could follow up with a phone call to er to Peter in the Oh certainly. next couple of days. Yeah. Er Jim across, across the road, is it Jim you play on a Thursday so That's right. Yes. Yes certainly give you his er Right. phone number, yes. Thanks that's great. It's er I'll just, I'll just get my little book out and I'll tell you what it is. Right. It's er Darlington three four five six seven. Great that's smashing. Also the same if you're playing football with Jim on Thursday you could also just mention to, I'll leave you a couple of these er these leaflets which do explain a lot of the areas we've covered tonight, erm perhaps you could give one to Peter or Yes I'll er try I'll do that if I remember. Yeah that's okay. Erm does erm does Judy, I know your wife, she goes to yoga class doesn't she? She, she goes to the She does, yeah. classes, yeah. Do you think she knows er do you think she er I know she did mention the girl Kate she, she goes to yoga with, does she pick her up She did didn't she? that's right she picks her up cos you're out on Wednesday night so yeah do you think I could er perhaps get erm the number for Kate? Yeah well I'm sure she'd be interested, I think she has children I think doesn't she? Certainly when my wife comes back in I'll er I'll mention it to her and I'll get her to give you a ring. That's great, well you've, you've got my number and you can always contact me that would Yes. would be great. Okay that's, that's very kind of you, thanks very much. That's, that's good so thanks very much John, I'll leave you now Thank you John, it's been a pleasure thanks very much for thanks very much. Terrific except for one think, you didn't actually ask for the client to contact the referrals prior to the approach being made, number five I did. I said could you mention it to him. You didn't. Yes he did, asked er I said er I'll be I'll be seeing him when I go back to work in the morning That's right said perhaps can you mention it to him, mention Yeah, sorry, you're right, you're right. Okay. Erm number one asking for the completion had been worthwhile, very good there, reminded er John why, yeah that was excellent, thought you handled the objection well, you know, about if the person walked through, that was good, everything else was tick tick tick erm sound pretty enthusiastic there, that little extra note, excellent voice, quite enthusiasm again controlled but not appear too pushy, it was very controlled I think so, yes. erm you know, I put down here that you're a natural, Very fair. I can only give you a C. Tell me John I'm pleased that we've er we've managed to get business completed this evening, I think it's gone very well, I'm sure you agree, er do you think that er did you find the, the exercise of completing that planning the future document was of benefit to you? Yes er I did er I think my wife and I both agreed that er the, the was, was quite Was that the ar was that the area that you felt was of the most of er benefit to you? Yeah certainly. Why was that specifically do you think? Well that just er to be honest with you I mean after, after looking at it we, we couldn't believe it really that, that amount of people could be affected by that, we obviously thought it wouldn't happen to us but after seeing that, at the age we are, I really think it's a super plan and I'm sure we'll feel a lot better It is quite surprising how many of my particular clients do take out that particular plan and they do tend to mention the same type of er of benefits that y that er that you just mentioned there, it is er I think it is a good plan, universally appreciated. Tell me when, when we when we s started our discussion of the planning the future document I did say that er there was one or two things you could do for me and er one of those of course was to ask you if you could, during the course of our discussion, if any names came to, to mind, anybody who you would find that you could er you could recommend me to or can refer to me to if in fact you found our discussions were of benefit Mm. and in fact you did mention erm erm I can't think of yeah well I can't really think of any at the moment, yeah. Well actually you did mention er Chris at er at where you work I think you said That's right, Chris yeah. I think you said he'd just moved into the area recently. He has yeah he lives in er now I believe, yeah Does he? Is that in Darlington? It is, yeah. Have you, do you have Er have his phone number handy? I, I don't think I've got his home phone number but you can certainly ring him at work, er If I contacted him on the same number that I contacted you Yeah you could, you could perhaps get him on that, yes. and that was? Yes that was, that was Darlington . Great, thanks very much. I think you also mentioned that you play, you play a fair bit of football as well John I do actually yeah, I play for on a, on a Thursday night, yeah. Yeah I used to play a lot of football when I was a young guy like you Yeah. it's a good sport isn't it? Oh it's great, I love it I like keeping fit you know. And you did mention that you were particularly pally with the goalkeeper, Alan, I can't recall his Yeah his, his surname, what was that? Oh yeah it was er I think it was Alan Alan yeah, is that ? It is, yeah Any idea what his phone number is? Er I can certainly get it for you cos I've got most of the lads' phone numbers er in case any of the games are cancelled , yes it's er Great, smashing. Those people whose names you've just, you've given me their details from, could I ask you er if the next time you see them if it's within the next few days or certainly erm if, if you could over the next day or two give them a ring just to let them know that I do intend to contact them, I'll probably contact them within the next week or so. Yeah sure, I Is that okay? Yeah no problem I'll see Peter at work, I'll, I'll, I'll pr er I will mention to him about it cos I was very impressed with , yes certainly I'll mention it to him and er Alan, if he's, if there's a game on Saturday yes I'll, I'll I could mention it to him. Oh that's great. And if you're er with you intending to ring them you know it's er Yes cos what I mean obviously in, in the, in the type of business that, that I do, you can see yourself a very personal business Yeah. and I do prefer to work on the er on a personal recommendations or referrals basis because that actually allows me to, to devote most of my time to my current clients without having to go out cold calling and looking for people. Yes, yes. It is a, a sort of a, a beneficial way of doing business both for myself and for my clients so is that okay? Yeah that's, that's great, yeah. Erm when you see erm Alan John erm if you see them over the next day or two if I can just give you this er these, these little leaflets Yeah. that do explain a little bit about Abbey Life products and also have a copy of as well erm they might find that of help before I give them a call. Yeah, oh certainly yeah that's no problem. Okay, good, erm I think that's probably gonna be sufficient for tonight John Yes. I think er well I think we've managed to er to complete our business er very nicely, I hope you're very satisfied That'll do you, that'll do you that'll do you. Right okay good, very good the objections cos you tried to whizz one in there very early on but John actually overcome it quite, quite good. Erm everything as I say okay yeah g er on knowing your script yeah good, didn't erm waver at all and also very good John at the old active listening, sales type people, we tend to rabbit rabbit rabbit and not listen and it's a fault Yeah. because you can actually learn more by listening than you can I know. by actually talking. Er all very good, stay in control, excellent, very polished erm yeah y you'd be worth an A but you've only got C. Great. I felt that to be er truthful now, I mean, how excited can they be about With this, well erm I was er after the first two years when I didn't get a referred lead or recommendation cos I, I had this fear in my mind that if I asked for names, they'd actually not give them and that they would actually then cancel the policy they'd taken out with me, I actually thought that Mm. but if you think about it, if you've done a good job, you've done a good presentation, done a good fact find and they buy, then they should be very happy at that moment in time and er it was stupid because that is the right time to actually ask I would say it's perfect because that's the perfect time and I had this sort of doubt in my mind erm then I was fortunate I learnt a co a very good scripted presentation for getting referred leads and once I started to actually ask, cos that's all it comes down to, erm then I was getting three, four, in the end I was being quite clever and saying look if you just restrict them to three then I'll give them the same good service I reckon I've given you this service Mm. by saying restrict them to three you get the best three they can think of Mm. you usually get the fourth and the fifth as well but I did actually only say three but alright as it's you I will take another one Mm. erm and, and it actually came out like that, quite sincere Yeah. it wasn't but it came out quite sincere erm no i it's the only way to work er but y you know it's here it's your attitude, I mean You've gotta think you've gotta think er think, it was like erm one of the guys was saying oh I've got a real problem getting the names, I said well how do you ask and he said well look I'm in the people business John but I don't suppose you know anybody do you no, and he wasn't er he said see they say it all the time I said well of course they do, it's the phraseology you're using Mm. I'm in the people business but I don't suppose you know anybody do you, you're bound to get a no-no. Mm. What would you say is a fair fair percentage of referrals and actual cold calling would you say for an associate? You know Well probably in your early days you'll probably do a mix, but if y the quicker you can get to only work, and even to the extent I mean I went out and bought my own book that had personal recommendations on the front and I would actually show that and say look John the only way I actually work, while I get everything ready you might like to look through because it's the only way I work, I purely work on a personal recommendation basis and that enables me to get quality clients like yourself erm and I can devote time to you rather than have to go out looking for people to tell my story to Mm. I use my clients to actually me expand my business which I means I can give you more of my time. Mhm. And this shows if you give the book out at the end and then what'll the guy say you wanna give it out at the beginning, sow the seed that this is the only way you work, you're now thinking well this guy's gonna be asking me for recommendations at some stage during the hour together Yeah it seems a nice little idea, there's a nice black bag with Yeah. personal recommendations Well I've got a red I got a red book out of Smiths and I had, one of my clients was a printer so I got him to put it in in the gold Yeah. inlay my name and Yeah for the sake of what, it cost me a fiver, probably a tenner these days, speculate to accumulate Mm. so, yeah. Does this go in with erm Yeah that goes in your locker now. same place as the other one? Yeah. Cheers. Yeah just imagine I'm not here. Got your forms? Yeah. Who wants to go first? Who's going first? I do. Alright well in that case you keep I'm, I'm the client am I? so you've got a guideline as to what you are if you need it. Don't forget the old planning the future, revisit it Right. make the point you know I'm sure you found this useful, what particular area was the one that excited you the most, yeah? Aha, aha. erm do you think that the erm planning your future that we've gone through this evening was er was of value to you? I'm sorry Right start again. do you think the er the planning your future that we've gone through this evening was of er particular value to you? Yeah I th yeah, yeah I think it was I was a bit hesitant before came round to, to er be pleasantly surprised. A lot of my best clients say that actually. Er which area do you think you found the most interesting? Er well the pension planning Why was that? Well I thought I was adequately, adequately provided for the er future but obviously I'm not, I'll have to bump that up a little bit. I want to enjoy life when I retire. Indeed. Keep up the golf well you remember er when we sat down this evening I said there was a couple of ways that you could help me, one of these ways was that er you might be able to introduce me to one or two of your friends and I can run through the same ideas with them. Er tell me you work with a chap called Chris Yeah. er would you mind introducing me to him? Do you have his phone number? Er well yeah I don't know I don't really know whether he'd er like me to be handing it out. Mhm. Mhm. Well look too happy with that er I can understand you saying that. I think erm what, what we, what I'd really like to do is if I could get in touch with him and give him the chance to make up his own mind er then he could decide whether or not he would like to have a chat with me and I'd just run a few ideas by him, just as you've done, without any pressure er and he can make his own decisions. Erm Whereabouts is he? Do you have his phone number? Er yeah go on then, it's er . Great, well thanks for that. Now what's, what's erm what, what sort of age is Chris? He's about thirty three I think. Aha, aha. And he does the same job as you? Yeah same department in fact. Is he married? No he's living with someone. Has he er got any family? No. No? Right okay I'll get in touch with him, thank you. You also said you played squash regularly erm there was a chap David you mentioned that er you play quite regularly er I'd like to get in touch with him as well if I could. Er well yeah I suppose so why not Great it's er Okay, thanks for that. Maybe erm You have to be careful with Dave, he's a little bit er touchy at times Is he? yeah. And I don't I'll only want him coming back to me Well I tell you what if he says no you, you know, I don't want you pushing him. Yeah, right, right. Well maybe you could have a quick word with him first and I could give you a call and then erm I won't be playing squash with him for about another what, four or five days so it's next Wednesday Mhm, okay well and so if you leave it till after that and So you'll give me a call on Thursday then? Yeah. Yeah okay give me a call and er if he's quite happy I'll give him a call. Well thanks very much for that Dave I'll look forward to seeing you in the near future. Okay, thanks er thanks Okay you covered all that okay yeah erm I think the objection bit you could've been a bit better on that one erm cos that was quite a sort of bad one, well you're not too sure about sort of giving his name or his telephone number out Mm. you might've er I mean you did it right, it could've been a bit stronger though, a bit more punch to it, er punch isn't the right word erm, you know, well okay look what I'm really asking for Dave is your help, you know,when people ask you to help what would you normally do, you'd help wouldn't you? Yeah. I mean for example if they walked in the room right now I'm sure you'd introduce me so I'm really saying is look can you give me a telephone number, I'll give them a chat and in fact, by the way, if you do see him within the next couple of days or so please give him a shout, let me know that you've been quite excited about some of the ideas that I've shown you this evening, I wanna do the same thing for him, you know, nothing gained nothing ventured nothing lost. Yeah. Right? Yeah. Okay good. With me? Mm. See it's difficult but then that's, but it's only practice Mm. and don't forget all next week you'll be doing the planning the future bit as well. Mm. Okay, do you wanna get yours back then and then we'll do Right Jim we've gone through the er planning the future form there this evening, erm what do you think of it? Any, any benefit there for you? Yeah sure Interest? Mhm. Well any particular area that we've looked at, the five key areas we looked at there if you remember. Erm definitely savings, that's something that er I never really thought about, it's shown me a way to get some, some money together to buy, buy a boat which would be nice. Your boat, yes, you're a bit of a sailing man. Er you remember earlier this evening I said there was two ways you could help me Aha. one of them you already have, you've er given me some good information for this fact find, you've helped me fill it in aha. the second one was that er if you found er my service helpful, to be of benefit to you, you'd feel free to recommend me to some of your friends and colleagues. Now earlier this evening you mentioned Chris who you er play squash with and what I'd Yeah. you to do is er give me his telephone number so that I er contact him, offer the same service to him as I have to you. Yeah certainly I would do but I must admit I don't really like er giving people's phone numbers out, I don't know how he'd react to, you know, somebody ringing him up and Well how did you react when I called you? You know. I'm here, I've provided that service. It's just an opportunity to meet and that's all I'm asking for. You know he'll, he'll decide for himself whether he Yeah fair enough services I thought it would be er I mean if he called round here now you'd introduce me wouldn't you? Mhm. just throw a blanket over my head and pretend I was a budgie. Absolutely by all means, okay his number his . and do you have his address at all as well? Yeah it's erm Okay. Is Chris married or children? Yeah he's married and he's got one little boy who's about three I think. Yeah. Mhm. Does his wife work as well do you know? Erm Also there's Dave that er you work with Yeah. erm Well I suppose I'd like to see him as well if possible so do you have his number? Well erm but er I, I don't actually, probably the best thing is just to er call at the office. Okay that's er the same number as yourself? Yeah. And same extension? Erm no he's erm right. You don't have his home address at all by any chance do you? No I don't really know him outside of work to be honest Okay that's fair enough. we have a few beers occasionally but That was erm what was his surname? It's erm er open minded type of character He certainly is Have to keep our fingers crossed. er who else do you know that er may be interested in this service? Well any other friends, family, brothers, sisters? Well I can't really think of anybody. Neighbours? No. Do you know anybody who's got married lately? Had a child? Erm It's er just offering a service er I really think it's a class act, to use an expression Mhm. you know you cover all the areas, five areas there Mhm. plan your future, Er well there's people that, you know, people take it up with me. There's the girl next door, she's just had a baby. I believe everybody should be given this opportunity, whether they take it or not is up to them. The girl next door? Yeah. What do they call her? Er Yvonne. Yvonne and er she's married I presume No she's single actually, she lives her parents' house Oh I see. Does she work then or? Er I think she does a bit of part time I'm not really sure what she does she comes and goes, she probably works in an old folks' home or something, she has a uniform. Right I'll, I'll give her a call. Do you know her telephone number? No I don't, you probably, I don't,sh she, I know she's a bit hard up, she's not on the phone you'd probably be better off just Do you think she'll object if I er just give a knock on the door on my way out there? Would you object? No not at all, no. Okay I'll do that if you don't mind. Mhm. Er anybody else? Er no can't think of anybody. I'll tell you what anyway Jim I'm coming back next week to er give you a few answers coming out of this fact find so Mhm. if you wouldn't mind in the meantime if you could think of a few names you know as you're going about your daily business . No well I'll think about it yeah. pleased to have those. And that's it for this evening so I'll look forward to seeing you next week then, okay? Okay. Thanks a lot Jim. Well you've been very helpful er Smashing. Right Doug erm there's a couple of points there really erm like you, you got the, the, the guy and you said who else do you know why not paint a picture, you know, erm like for example Jim the people I do business with are between twenty five and thirty five, they're usually married buying their own home probably got, possibly got children, you know, Mm. who do you know who actually fits that description? Whereas who else do you know and a little bit later it's well anybody else it's er vague isn't it? Yeah. And they c er and you won't get a response, apart from that I mean I think I mentioned like friends, family er brothers, sisters Yeah but it wasn't done in a, in an enthusiastic manner it was like a sort of well who do you know like friend, family that sort of thing and at the beginning I thought you was a bit more positive but I thought when you were revisiting the, the planning the future that might have been nerves right at the beginning of the session, you then relaxed and your pace all slowed down, excellent at reminding er Jim picked up referrals mentioned earlier, handled the objection okay, don't remember you asking Jim to contact them beforehand don't think you did, Jim did he? Er Mm. I don't think he did so it's the only one you missed out, probably find the the video that's not, not applicable but yeah. Erm you yeah you did actually you were good and it was a nice pace you know it was a relaxed, you know Mm yeah. er that, that was good. Friendly enthusiastic, yeah, didn't use any slang erm the link was there, the attention to the client's responses that was good, I was saying to erm th th that, that sales people tend to be a bit sort of more rabbit than Watership Down, you know that they're Yeah. but you've got a very nice way of actually listening and you'll actually learn far more about people by listening than actually talking so erm I found that quite picked up and pinpoint areas contact er eye contact, that was good, stayed in control, not too pushy yeah. You're worth an A mate but you're only gonna get a C. Okay we'll have our next two in are we free to er run away now? Well I think we'll actually do a bit of a debrief, yeah?we should be finished. Right. I, I think some of the lads have gone. Have they? Well one one definitely has er Oh er J David has, he football Oh that's right yeah. Hallo Brian. Thanks for seeing me this evening er You haven't gotta do it on me Oh sorry I'm I'm well I'm the fly on the wall. Don't forget, yeah, give us, whoever's gonna go first Oh right. Er who's going first? I don't mind. Ian? I don't mind. Shall I go first? Yeah you go first. Oh right I'm I'm In that case you give me your form,keep hold of it Right. ? I don't mind, I'm not here I'm just a fly on the wall like. Erm but don't forget to like if you look at the beginning, number one, you've gotta make a big thing on planning the future Yeah. I mean I'm gonna try and give, the first two guys and er Mike who came in, they didn't do very well cos they didn't actually mention that bit and it didn't flow from then on, you've gotta make the point, you know, did you find that er well not did you, that's bad phraseology, I'm sure you found this beneficial which of the areas of the five tonight actually interest you the most do that bit and then go in with the fact that you actually mentioned earlier on that you do work on a recommendation basis. When you, when you say that Brian I mean you you're, you're talking about at the end of the planning the future after you prioritize? Is that correct or, or Yes, yes yes. well you don't want us to prioritize No don't do it just assume all that stuff, that's been done Yeah. so you just wanna revisit it and say oh I'm sure you found this document has been really useful this evening and out of those five areas we discussed, you might wanna consolidate it a bit, which was the one that excited you the most and that's your retirement savings you know Right. not been for anything else yet Yeah. and then you can pick it up from there. Right, okay. Alright? Right. Well Ian we've, we've finished the completion of the document erm the planning your future document, now which of those five areas did you find interesting? I thought helping to er increase me pension and was very good. Right. Okay well as I said previously what I'm gonna do is go away and then I'll prepare some figures for you and perhaps I'll come and see you next week, okay? Erm what, what I said to you earlier was that er at the very beginning where you could help me was if, if you found this of value to you, this service that I've just provided, erm perhaps you could erm th there might be er some friends of yours that er you might find that this might be of beneficial to. Now you mentioned Chris earlier I believe Oh aye yeah. erm the fella that you work with Yes. erm erm y have you his I don't er have, have, have,wou I believe this Chris might be interested in this er have you got his telephone number where I can contact him ? Yeah why do you think that? Well I, I what I I would like to er erm sorry I've gotta stop Go on, go on go on Erm cos you were doing great up until that point and then you left yourself Yeah I know but wide open and that's where you got I, I'm the response you got. That's right, yeah. Er well er the reason is I believe that I think you mentioned earlier that Chris is er in the same line of trade as you and as you mentioned about the pension side which you was interested in on the planning the future I feel Oh yeah that Chris might be this might help Chris Yeah. erm Yeah have his number, yeah. like to say er if you'd like to ring you could ring him, I'll ring him next week Mhm. and if you'd like to ring him first and Oh I'll see him at work and I'll obviously we'll talk about Okay. yeah. So er Yeah his number's whatever Right okay erm is there anyone that, members of the family that erm that might like, appreciate the service? Erm Perhaps your m mum and dad or brothers and sisters Yeah me me brother might be of interest now, he's Okay. yeah I mean I'll, I'll, I'll give you his number. Yeah. And your your brother's right. and his telephone number's whatever Right okay. And is there anyone you know that has just recently got married cos these are areas that obviously Yeah erm really help people. no at the moment all my friends have, have been married a few years erm next time you come and er Right that's, that's, that's lovely Ian anyway thanks very much for seeing me this evening erm well as I say I'll go away and prepare some figures and then I'll, I'll see you what, what say Wednesday next week? Yeah. Er in the meantime I may ring Chris up er and Yes no problem. see if I can be of help to him. Mm. Okay, thanks very much. Thanks. You may ring Chris up? You will ring Chris up. I will ring Chris up right er I lost track of it halfway erm you know it was but er so I, I just and you got your points in, I mean you asked whether it was worthwhile, you did that very well actually er and you were good on reminding the prospect why you were actually asking for recommendations, probably a little bit weak after that point although you did, you, you picked up again, there were, there were points we're looking for you did pick up referrals mentioned earlier. The objections, we didn't re didn't really get the i you were doing that first of all and then you paused and started again Yeah that's right. and it flowed quite nicely and you didn't actually give any objections or any He wasn't supposed to give me any objections I wasn't Well you No er er we just done it naturally actually, it was just er Yeah I mean you coped be er you, you came across as very natural, you knew your script er friendly enthusiastic, yeah, no slang, belief was there, attentive to Ian's responses, yeah, picked up the names mentioned earlier,eye contact when yeah er that. Qui quietly confident I would say Yeah I, I feel Brian I mean, you know, you said we'd gotta be natural, it's all very well reading from a script but at the end of the day it's natural that comes across. That's the guideline, you put your own phraseology and Yes. your own mannerisms on it. Yeah. Right? Okay that's, you'd better hang on to that one and I'll Yeah Oh can I put a C on the front. Tick C for me tick C I'll tick C Yeah. er requires further on the job training Yeah. that's what We can't give you more than that. Yeah do I, do I throw in objections or Well I mean if he's very good you probably won't be able to. Right, okay. Erm David we've just obviously completed a, a plan of your future, we just looked at areas which we Yeah. we both felt you need to highlight erm can I ask you which of the areas you felt particular interest in? Yeah I, I was very interested in the savings plan actually, I, I I, I'm not very good at saving and I believe that could be a help. I, I'm not looking to put a l put a large amount of money away but that's I'm interested in that. Yeah? Ah right that's good. Earlier we mentioned that erm there were a couple of areas which if I was helpful to you you could possibly help me and one was obviously best advice I could give to you Right. the other point was obviously people that you may know which may be able to help me in my business, people you feel this information obviously it was of interest to you Yeah I, I found it very interesting erm yeah. but would obviously be beneficial to them and Yeah. you mentioned er John erm Yeah John bit of golf with that's right, yeah. erm Yeah right what I'll do I'm I can a I'll see, I'm seeing John Saturday and I'll, I'll mention to him. Right. Could I have his telephone number and give him a ring? him a ring? Right. John, and what's his surname? Er it's John Right. erm Telephone number, whatever address yeah right and you mentioned your brother as well cos he's a guy Right yeah my brother, he could be interested Aha. erm yeah I'll, I'll certainly Right. And obviously people yeah you feel would yeah I, I'm not sure at this stage but they might, they might be able to benefit yeah. Great. Erm anybody else ? Erm well there's some other guys I play golf with er Fred perhaps I'll mention it to him as well. Right. Do you have his Give him number at all? I don't know his number offhand but I Well I'll see you next, I'll see you next week Yeah. cos I'll, I'll come back and see you so Right yeah okay. erm er if there's anybody who you feel erm next door or who have recently been married cos it's obviously a great help to people who have just recently been married. Er actually my cousin's just recently been married er then again I don't know her phone number at this present time but I'll, I'll perhaps, I'll perhaps er Well, well what I'll do is next week I'll Yeah. erm Right. Watch the dog round me cousin's Ah right I like dogs so that'll be alright. because she's got a big alsatian. And erm good, thank you very much indeed and I look forward to seeing you next week. Yeah, okay, thanks very much. Good Ian I was I was a good client wasn't I? Yeah Yeah but the way he was asking, again it was, it was a natural flow Yeah, that's right. there was no, there was no pressure there at all was there? Yeah that's right. And he'd actually confirmed that you, you found it useful and he had mentioned earlier on there were one or two ways that you could actually help him Yeah. it was a na if you do it, if you follow those two first parts right the rest of it almost slots into place. Very very good Ian erm excellent voice, remind the prospect as to why you were gonna be asking and I thought you were very good there erm i in fact you were that good that you were actually offered to contact before you even asked Yeah. you had the offer to, to contact these people for him erm the video doesn't apply, at the end of the day Yeah. He's very enthusiastic er superb on that I thought erm kept on asking I've put here, you actually ended up with five names I didn't! Mm. I had, I had five names here, that would give you sixteen, you're worth an A but I'm afraid You've only got a C. you've only got a C. Alright Ian, good. I, I should imagine when you go out and do it it's er it's a lot easier in a sense cos you This is the toughest one. yeah, But as long as you follow the guidelines that are there Yeah. you're there. Yeah. Has everybody else been done? Oh right. Yeah fine, give us your form. Now I'm not here, alright? Yeah okay. But don't forget to revisit planning the future. To re ? Revisit the planning the fu the fact finder okay so that the sort of phraseology will be well I'm sure you, you found this a very worthwhile exercise Yeah. incidentally er Jim which of the areas was of particular you know interest to you. Mm. Paint us a picture yeah? Alright. Okay Jim well we've, we've been through the erm the planning your future exercise Mhm. and er erm and we discussed it fully and I've been noting the points down you know but what, what in particular was of interest to you on that er er on that on those discussions? Er I think it was the er the pension really. The pension? Mhm. Why in particular the pension? Well it was something that you hear a lot about it and er I've never done anything about it and it's cos I'm starting to think towards the future and it's gonna be nice to know that I'm gonna have a pound or two to go and do what I want when I retire. Fine. Right we'll do something on that for you and erm Mhm. see what we can do and we can arrange that, that's no problem Yeah good. Do you remember earlier this evening when we was erm talking of going through erm I said there were ways that perhaps you might be able to help me erm Mm. help you, er you mentioned your, your brother John and his family Yeah. erm I'm sure that I could be of some help to them Aha. I'd like to contact them, have you, can you give me their number? Erm yeah I can give you their number, it's erm Yeah let me just write that down. Okay it's erm I dunno, I dunno how they'll feel about you phoning them up though to be honest with you. Well would you perhaps like to give them a, a ring to, to say what I spoke about today then I'll give them a ring, say if you could ring them tomorrow then I'll ring them er er tomorrow evening a as well and then perhaps I can, you know, they, you've given them the ground work to actually er for me to ring as well and then I can discuss with him and arrange an appointment to go and see him is that okay? Yeah I should think so. Oh good, okay. Oh talking about th that sort of thing er I think you mentioned the ph photographic club is that right? Yeah that's right I go every Tuesday night. Oh do you? Oh that's good. Er is it erm a large club, many members? Erm I think there's probably about twenty odd members with ten people who are there every week. Oh they're there every week? Mm. Oh erm I'm sure er who do you think will perhaps be of benefit erm for me to talk to them as well you know to discuss this with them? I don't really know Erm well perhaps you, you wou would you er let me perhaps er well not let me but perhaps I could ring a few of erm those people just to have a chat with them and perhaps put, you know, talk about the er planning your future exercise with them as well, could you, would you give me some numbers please? Yes sure I've actually got erm a list here of erm all, all the members of the club. A list? Oh that's fine. Oh that will be splendid er well thanks for that, that's er that's great obviously Mhm. erm er going on from there erm who else would you think would be interested, there's obviously relatives, friends, anybody like that with a wedding erm soon or Er can you think of anybody like that perhaps who might be interested I mean because you know we cover for weddings and er Actually Sue, this friend er er Sue she's getting married. Is she? Yeah. Mm. Yeah. Er Sue, Sue Super mhm, telephone number? Erm er er er I can't remember but if you ring, ring Sedgewicks, you know Oh Sedgewicks in Norwich yeah she works there. ask for Sue yeah that'll be great. If you see her in the meantime obviously mention Sure we, we're going over there at the weekend actually, give them a ring next week. Yeah well I'll give them a ring say early next week Mm. and if you can have a word with them I'd be grateful that just lays the foundation for me to talk to them and er and to go and see them. Well that's splendid you know we've got mortgage and everything like that Mhm. thanks for that information anyway. That's okay. Well thanks for the names erm and er what I'll do is I've, I've got this video, I'll leave that with you, you and your wife Mhm. have a look at that Aha. and er I would like to make an appointment to come and see you er again next week to talk over this mortgage and to go into it a bit more Right. Okay? Fine. Yeah. So then perhaps if you'd like to take a look at the video in that, in the meantime Mhm. erm then erm what I'll do I'll pick it up next week and that will obviously show you a bit more about Abbey Life and any, any of your friends or anybody you think might, might like to look at the video erm you know just to give them an insight, people you mentioned erm to me that you perhaps know you'd like to pass the video on to them to have a look erm and if er er you've got my number and if you want to ring me then I can get some more videos if you think other people might be interested I'm quite happy to pass them on, on to you as well, okay? Yeah okay Bill. Yeah well thanks Jim, it's been lovely meeting you and I, I've enjoyed the evening erm and enjoyed, thanks for the tea and we've been through That's alright. we've been through everything erm everything possible on the fact find er on, sorry, planning your future and I think er, you know, you, you've helped me Alright Bill exc excellent, excellent. Apart from a little wobble half way through when er when you threw in a bit of an objection you wobbled a bit, no very good excellent erm you know I liked the way you actually confirmed the pension as a number one priority, I thought that was good. Yes you reminded erm er Jim about the, the er asking why you asked for recommendations, pinpointed handled the objections excellently erm I'd actually put video not available but you brought it in so you've got a cross here and it's got yes you, yes it was I'll give you that erm but a very nice quiet sort of controlled enthusiasm Bill. Very good with searching questions Mm. you know you sort of, you were there, I am as a trainer you were sort of digging away there getting a bit more information out about people. Excellent voice I mean worth an A Bill, brilliant if you do that, but I mean I'm not, I know speaking to sort of Charles and Tom and Alan, they say that sort of recommendation referrals in Norwich are very difficult but I think if you do it the right way Mm. Mm. I don't see why it should be. Yeah. Right do you wanna grab another couple of guys and send them in and I'll er Thanks Brian. Will do. sort them out. Is that all? I think that's it Brian. That's it is it? Oh well we'll go back in the other room. I think exercise completed Brian. Is it? Oh good Yeah. good, good. Well we'll just arrange for the er It was actually . to my deaf mute son. Everyone shuts up now. Mm. Yeah. That'll be a good dictionary when it comes out. Is that what they're doing it for? Mm Spoken English not What bollocks and things like that. not not like them you know in the ord in the ordinary dictionary it's all the sort of Hairy minge yeah you can imagine looking through the book. Oh look, hairy minge The er Cuddling. College style vocabulary Yeah. Mm. Like eh oop. You never see that in the dictionary. Eh oop. Eh oop lad. You're never likely to either. the new one. Not you won't either. It'll be in that one. You'll get fucking hell . Things like that. The the Whitstable dictionary Yeah. bollocks you cunt. That's it. Dave Dave. I'm gonna miss old Dave really for his words of wisdom. I'm gonna miss him. And Les . He's a nice bloke. No Les's a pain in the arse. Dave's alright. please. Er? Les's alright. He's alright he's just a pain on and on and on and on. When I was at Tesco's. Oh I yeah. Me, me and Jock used to wind him up. I'd say shut up Jock. He'd say why? I'd say shut up, shush. He said why? I said cos Les, Les is gonna tell us a Tesco's story otherwise. You little cunts you . You young bastards. You don't know what it's like to work. When we was here, when it was . Oh dear. You Yeah. Take my, my super mini out. With the L plates on. Yeah . L plates on. They're not being used though. Gotta learn to Gotta learn to drive first. Here Tracy! What? Martin at work. When he found out you got a mini he said where does Tracey sit? In the back and Darren sits in the front. That was Jim weren't it? And Jim said it. Tell them to shut their mouths. I will. Tracey in the back and Darren in the front. Well he said you can't both, can't get in the front of that. ooh. Cheer up Mandy. Mm? Cheer up. I'm alright. Just thinking of the things I gotta do when I get home. Oh. I put an agenda in my head you know? What I'm gotta do first and What have you gotta do then? I gotta clean the kitchen. Do the rest of the washing Oh I better start getting the dinner ready for tomorrow. hoover through. Do the bathroom. Sort Hannah's clothes out in her wardrobe and get all them sorted. See what I need to get her. Is this today's? I wanna see what they say about Spurs after yesterday. Cor I bet that nearly deafens them when they listen to that tape and he's squawking on it. Bloody thing. Wonder if they'd accept a parrot with it. I doubt it. No? Oh well. Not even if we squashed it into the cassette case. Wouldn't be that lucky. Couldn't be that lucky. You'd have to be really lucky wouldn't you? Blimey, they said a lot about Spurs. What? They're only seventh off the bottom. Who? Spurs. Where's Liverpool? Halfway down. What's Arsenal? Fifth aren't they? Fourth now aren't they? Fourth. Are they fourth. Oh. After winning yesterday. Fucking ten points behind though. Mm. What you , what they don't realize in this paper is that Spurs have got about three games down on everyone else. Oh well they wouldn't would they? Well no. If we win them three games that we got in hand then we'll be up to about sixth place. If. There's a big if. They're ain't doing so well at the moment are they? They've hit a bad patch. Is there anything in there about Gary Lineker's baby? I don't know. I was just gonna have a look. No. Just he's er said thank you over the Mm. on the telly. For all the cards and that. I reckon that's wrong innit? That bloke there. That bloke, the council are paying all that on his mortgage. He's moved into a council house now. .perching. Get out. That new tyre law comes in soon dunnit? That what? New tyre law. First of Feb First of erm first of November, it came in. Oh. Why? Mm? I'd better check my two back ones then. They're alright. Are they? Well they were. dad. . Right come on then shit box. Does him good to stir him up now and again. There's a difference between stirring him up and aggravating him dad. Well that is agg , that is stirring him up innit? He's well stirred up. Suppose I'd better do the washing up. Put two more tyres on Cambridge the other day. Mm? On the back. I had them erm two little ones on there. Got two proper ones on there now. Mm. I had them down there look, they were on. See you later Yeah Go careful. Yeah I know. I seen them. ooh well. Right what can I do for you today . Er you sent me on I'm gonna go, and I came up before the receptionist. She said something about changing it. Oh aye right, right that was for your x-rays Robert. Right, aye, that's right. Starting to show a bit of arthritis, in the knee. That's what begun you your trouble, down there. Basically like I say it's just when I, when I bend it, Mhm. to extension like, you know. That's right. Thirteenth Is this when your line's due Robert? Yeah it's roughly about. Round about now. Aye. There we are now. And I think he'll have it in for you. Right you are, thanks a lot, Doctor . Okay? Right. Just keep that knee moving as much as you can. As I say it's when I take the bandage off at night. Aye. to the wife, Aye. if you get what I mean. Aye. Listen you you've got you've got to watch, don't let it down, bandage it all the time, Robert. Give yourself an hour or two at night Aye, aha, aye. just getting it keeping it moving. Right you are. Keep the joint,what's happening is the the the smooth side is starting to get a wee bit rough and if you can keep that rubbing off the other bone it smooths it down. Great. Aye, aye Okay? So you're taking a file Aye, aye. and filing away a rough edge . If you do it'll keep moving for years and years and years no problem, but if you let the two of them sit Aye, got you. They'll seize and that. Aye. They'll they'll weld, they'll weld together Robert and that'll stiffen, stiffen and stiffen as the years go on. Right you are. So just keep that slight Aye. movement in it. Cheers. Okay? Right you are. Okay, cheerio now. Ta-ta. I shall be talking services today and dealing with Clare from industries like Boots and who discard their waste waters into sewers for treatment. More broad topic now on the subject of water. And a subject dear to your heart I'm sure, costs. Cos I I assume you all pay your water bills. And get a good supply from Severn Trent. Erm Severn Trent is part of Severn Trent P L C, Severn Trent Water is part of Severn Trent P L C, which is group of companies established following privatization in nineteen eighty nine. Incidentally I've been asked to keep the talk fairly short, to avoid nodding off. But I'm sure there's no danger of that. Erm we's we've had a number of changes in the water industry over the years. And I guess most of the people in this audience today would think of water being supplied by water boards. That always used to be the case of course. But there've been a number of changes over the years, certainly prior to nineteen seventy four that would be the case, water boards supplying water, local councils treating treating the sewage, and the rivers authorities looking after the river pollution aspects. In fact before nineteen seventy four there were over thirteen hundred agencies within England and Wales which dealt with the sewage side of the business. Some did it very well, like Nottingham for instance. Always had a good sewage treatment works at Nottingham. Some did it reasonably well, some did it very poorly. It was one of the reasons why the government in nineteen seventy four established water authorities. Ten water authorities for England and Wales. Which amalgamated all these bodies, previously dealing with the water as part of their business, supply, sewage treatment and river pollution control. all those amalgamated into ten new bodies called water authorities. But were still called water boards by the press and by people in general. And then in nineteen eighty nine, the the government decided to split up the water authorities, privatize the utility part, that is treatment of of sewage and supply of water, and split up a regulatory body called the National Rivers Authority. Erm so now we are a water company, not a water board any more, a water company. Erm but we still get called water boards or water authorities. So I don't suppose they'll ever get it right. The same kind of P L C as a world wide company. We've got a lot of erm subsidiary companies. We employ ten thousand five hundred people. Nine thousand nine hundred of those in the U K. The other five hundred or so are scattered er throughout the world. Mainly in Europe and the United States. Severn Trent Water Limited provides services to eight point two million people. Worldwide we provide services to twenty million people. So we supply more people overseas that we are in the U K. We've got contracts in New York, we've got a contract in Mexico worth several hundred million pounds. A joint venture there to supply water services to Mexico City. We work in Belgium, we work in Italy, Germany, Puerto Rico, India, Malaysia, Chile and Hong Kong. Plus a few others, that I can't mention. Eight point two million customers of which I assume that you are some of those. And the three hundred thousand businesses throughout Severn Trent region. Which is centred on Birmingham and goes up as far as the Humber Estuary and down as far as the Severn Estuary. We supply four hundred and thirty five million gallons of water a day, and that's a lot of water. We've got a hundred and ninety plants. Via twenty four thousand miles of pipes. Some of which in good condition, some of which in poor condition. And we're replacing all of those, year by year. We treat five hundred and seventy five million gallons a day of sewage. Which is a fair bit of sewage to treat. At over a thousand sewage works, via thirty two thousand miles of sewers. Now when we were privatized, there were those I'm sure who thought, It's a licence to print money. Which it would be of course if you weren't a regulated body. Erm all the privatized utilities like gas, electricity, telecoms, have all been privatized with a regulator to oversee the prices that are charged. And there's a pricing formula. The regulator for the water industry is OFWAT, Office of Water Services. And their director general, a guy named Ian resides in Birmingham, and he looks after your interests as customers. He'll he'll take he'll take his part if there's a if there's a dispute between a customer and the water company. And he also regulates the price very severely. You may not agree with that but of course the formula is is the retail price index plus a factor of K. K being positive, it means that prices are going up faster than inflation. And I I guess you've all seen that in the water bills that drop through your doors. K was set at five and a half percent in the first year. So if in if inflation went up say seven or eight percent in the first year, you're looking at prices in double figures. Twelve, thirteen percent. ninety ninety one prices went up thirteen percent on average, and in ninety one ninety two by fifteen percent. The increases have been less of late because inflation's dropped and we've reduced our K value. But why why should we all have to pay more money for water? It's because we're investing a lot of capital expenditure to put right some years of neglect I might say. We're spending over two million pounds a day on capital expenditure. To improve the water service in terms of treatment plant, service pipes, sewage treatment plants and the rest of the infrastructure. That capital programme was agreed with government before privatization. What have we achieved? Well we are also monitored by other regulators. We have a regulator in terms of Ian and Office of Water Services. But we also have other regulators other watchdogs. We have the Drinking Water Inspectorate that monitors the quality of water that we put into your taps. And in nineteen ninety two, ninety nine point seven percent of all the samples that were taken, met all the standards. And the standards we have to meet are rigorously laid down regulations. We have to meet fifty six different standards for the quality of water. If you're partial to drinking bottled water, the report on Which you might like to read some time. Can't read the date on it. I've probably missed the date somewhere. April nineteen ninety one. And there's also an equinox programme on Channel Four about bottled water. Fine, people drink bottled water because they don't particularly like the taste of ground water. Because of the chlorine that's that's present in that water to make it bacteriologically safe. But the quality of bottled water does vary. They don't analyze it as often as we do. And once you've opened that bottled water, then any bacteria which might be present, may multiply. So if you do use bottled water it's advisable to put it in the fridge after you've opened it. Interesting enough one of one of the controversial erm chemicals that people are concerned about with their water is nitrate. And there's a limit on the nitrate values in the supply that we give you. There's no limit on the nitrate values of bottles water. So they're working to different standards than that the water industry. So we're overseen by the watchdog, the Water Inspectorate publish an ann annual report, see how well we're doing. And we're doing as well as anyone in Europe. We also have another watchdog called the National Rivers Authority. They used to be part and parcel of the water authorities and looked after the rivers when we were one big body, as a water authority. But on privatization, they were split off to be the watchdog for what we put into the rivers. And what the quality of the water is in in the ground, in the in the rivers themselves. They look after land drainage and also er the fisheries. So they're a watchdog as well. Our samples that we ou our our effluence that we discharge to the rivers, met all the standards on ninety nine percent of samples last year. Which is the best ever we've done. Which is not the impression you get sometimes when you read the paper. Because if you read the paper we're called the dirty man of Europe. Implying that the water we supply is worse than what's in Europe, and the sewage effluence we put into rivers is not as good as the rest of Europe. We are the dirty man of Europe if you r if you read the papers. We are the only country that's been condemned in in the European courts for failing to meet the E C drinking water standards. In in terms of nitrates. But why? Why is this? I gu my guess is if I ask the audience I I may get an answer I don't like here. But if you go abroad do you drink the water out the taps? guess you d some do and some don't. But I would always ask, Is it safe to drink the water out the taps? And the reps on the holiday co coach when they take you from airport, sometimes say yes and sometimes say no. And so I resort to buying bottled water. But why is it that we're called the dirty man of Europe? Our data's available that's why. We have to publish public registers. The Rivers Authority a public register, which details the quality of all the sewage effluence that goes into rivers, and it details the quality of those rivers. Readily available, you can go along to the N R A offices in Nottingham and ask to see the register. You will not get that information if you go on the continent. The Drinking Water Inspectorate publish an annual report. All the data is there for public inspection. Readily available, available to pressure groups like Friends of the Earth and Greenpeace. And they will read those reports and if we're failing anywhere, they'll highlight that. I bought a copy in of last weeks Daily Telegraph because interestingly enough,the press seems to be latching on to this er not playing by the rules. Anyone seen this? Yeah. They went to erm a number of cities in Europe, of all the countries in Europe, and tried to gather the data to compare the quality of water in their countries, to the quality in ours. Some were good, some couldn't produce any data whatsoever. And in two cases official that were supposed to give the data went missing. And that is the reason I think why we are called the dirty man of Europe. Because we're more open, we're more honest, the availa the information's there. Yes we can do better and yes we are getting better, but all that's gonna cost money. .How expensive is tap water? Well it's about fifty pence a cubic metre if you have a er a metered water supply in Severn Trent, which is about point O five pence a litre. Erm bottle water is probably thirty, forty, fifty pence a litre. So in terms of price there's no comparison. But people don't but th they don't go for that they go for that because they don't like the taste of chlorine. We accept that and we're looking at ways of improving that taste of water. And in many areas we've done that. We're moving towards more ozone treatment for water. We amount of chlorine to maintain the bacteriological purity of it. I've pulled out a few press cuttings as well whilst I was looking through some of the for this talk. The River Trent, not far away from here. Again you'd think that the Trent is er in a diabolical state. River worse than ever, it says here. . A group set up not too far away from here in Newark said that the erm, It has been said that the river is worse now than it's ever been in history. Well that's a load of rubbish. Absolute rubbish. There is no way the River Trent is worse now than and time in history. If you go back thirty, forty, fifty years. It was certainly far more polluted than it ever is today. They said that because they catch their fish. And the N R A have come out with the reason now, saying that the river is cooler in the winter periods, when the fishing seems to be off, and the fish aren't biting. That's the N R A's reason for the river fishing being not so good. But the U K has some of the highest some of the best quality rivers in Europe. The percentage of rivers in in the U K in the classes one and two, which are good and satisfactory, are far higher, in the U K, than they are in Europe. Something like ninety percent of our rivers fall in those categories. Now the on the subject of treatment I I now pull out a government report here, because where do we get criticized from? Where do we get prosecuted? We got prosecuted in Brussels. Erm E C court. Anyone been to Brussels? Yeah. Do you know what happens to sewage in Brussels? I think it goes straight in the river. Exactly. They haven't got a treatment plant yet in Brussels. There's a report by the Sunday Times. Er let me read this few paragraphs from the Sunday Times report. Last week environmentalists, accompanied by the Sunday Times, visited the River Senn. Which is the river in Brussels. Less than four miles from That's the he was the environment minister at the time. headquarters and found evidence that the river is one of the most polluted in the twelve E C countries. municipal depot, choked with s with nettles and weeds, the sewage of the Belgian capital flows untreated and unnoticed through two forty s foot square pipes into the Senn. It's a practice that Britain abandoned years ago. A ten foot wide brown slick oozed continually into the blue grey waters, in which no fish can survive, and no person would dare to swim. Every inch added to the rivers reputation as the dustbin of Europe. And that was written in May nineteen ninety one. They have now put steps in hand to build a sewage treatment works. The first part of it will be finishing next years, with another one in the year two thousand. But that's where we're getting criticized from. A place that doesn't have a sewage treatment works. I think it' disgraceful. But there is pressure to improve standards even more, in the U K. We have pressures to improve on on water quality although ninety nine point seven percent of our our water samples meet the tests. There's pressure to go even higher. And as you well know, or at least I hope you well know, as you approach sort of absolute sort of purity limits, the costs of doing so, escalate out of all proportion. The same with sewage treatment. There's another E C urban waste water directive treatment. Which will be enforced by the year two thousand requiring additional treatment for sewage effluence. In certain places. According to whether the are designated sensitive or not. And those are gonna push up costs. Now the director general of the watchdog is your friend. He's the guy who said, The escalation of prices has got to stop. We cannot carry on increasing water service charges by ten to fifteen percent, year in and year out. Where would it stop. People won't be able to afford to have the water services if you carry on in this way. So he's declared basically a dispute with the N R A amongst others, because he's identified that some of this pressure's coming from the Rivers Authority. Erm their their job is to make sure the rivers are clean. It's a question of how cle the ri should those rivers be? And how clean can we as a nation afford them to be. We could all have rivers brimming with salmon if you wish. But there's a price you're paying. And whether that price is worth paying is something only you can tell us. It's not for us to decide necessarily that we will we will treat effluence to a certain standard and pass the costs on to you, because that's where it all goes to. We erm we need to consult the customers. And this is what we've done. Now the current prices of water, I'm sure you think, Oh it's extortionate. The average price in Severn Trent is a hundred and sixty four pounds per household. Now I guess from the affluent audience we've got here today that you pay more than that because you're living in higher rated value properties I guess. Correct me if I'm wrong. But the average price in Severn Trent is a hundred and sixty four pounds per household per year. That compares with the rest of the water companies, we are second lowest. Thames is the lowest with a hundred and fifty two, and South West is the highest at two hundred and sixty six. That's the current prices. So South West is is a hundred pounds a year more than ours. On a day basis, it's about forty five pence a day, which is er less than the price of a half a glass of beer. Or gentleman smoking there, it's less than four price of four cigarettes. Which I wouldn't have thought is extortionate in this day and age. So when you look at it on a yearly basis and a compare it to what it was a few years ago, Yes it's gone up a lot. But where will it go to if we're building all these new requirements to treat water and effluence to the higher standards. At the moment the er the regulators ask us to go to the to the customers, and this we have done, and produce something called market plans. Erm And you can all get a copy of this is you want to write to the water authority. Sorry, water company. Your future drinking water and sewage services . It's just a twelve page document, but it's it's the result of a customer survey which was carried out. We sent out fifty thousand videos to random customers. Did anyone in the audience get a video from Severn Trent? Ah well done sir. And did you send back your questionnaire? Yes I did. Very good. Very good. And what did you think of it? I thought it was very interesting what the the company or whatever you call yourselves nowadays, was doing. Mm. Erm I think what bothers a lot of us is the quality of water we get locally. Right. I mean could you say something about that? I was going to ask a question but since you've asked me Alright . Well I'll c I'll that later . At least I'll try to armed with the facts. We sent out fifty thousand of those videos. You might well that's an extortionate way of of er of conducting a a market research. But actually those videos cost s less than a pound to produce each. So that's fifty thousand pounds. But a pound a head we thought was good value. And then we followed that up with market research of five thousand customers at random. And we priced from from what the customers told us what they wanted, and then we would tell the customers how much that would cost, we got a feeling for the support for certain initiatives. Yes they all wanted clean rivers, but then when they were told the price of complying with the urban waste water directive, they were less keen. Erm they wanted er sewer overflows to be stopped. They wanted leakage from our pipes to be stopped. That probably was the highest priority of all I think. Erm quickly. Yes eighty six percent wanted a substantial reduction on leakage, and sixty five percent wanted improved taste in the water. And there's a willingness to pay was high for those er for those benefits. The lower ones were improving storm sewer overflows and treating sewage even better, so there was less there was less enthusiasm for paying more money to improve sewage treatment works. But it's it's information that we need or the director general need in order to decide what prices will be set. Because we refer to South West again. They are spending a lot of money in the South West on cleaning up the beaches. They're providing sewage treatment plant, which they hadn't prov provided previously to send cleaner water into the seas. That is estimated to have cost between four hundred and five hundred pounds per household, by the year two thousand, if all those plans go through. And that's without inflation. Now inflation's very low at the moment, but if inflation took off again and got into double figures, then not only would your pensions suffer, but your bills would go up as well. We estimate in Severn Trent our bills'll be two hundred and twenty seven pounds by the year two thousand. Per household, which is lower than three of them currently are. And how will you pay? Erm historically we've paid, most people have paid on the basis of of rateable value. Rateable value times so much er pence per pound R V. Since nineteen eighty nine of course, rateable value's dis disappeared. When the wonderful new system the poll tax came in. And so all new houses built since that date, have had no rateable value assess assessment. And so you can't use that system. So all new houses, certainly in Severn Trent region, since that date have had water meters. When we consulted our customers on how they wanted to pay for water, there was no clear preference. There was a slight preference maybe for water meters. Water meters can be argued to be fair. You have some influence over what you use, and so the size of the bill. Erm but it's an expensive system to install. And Severn Trent hasn't yet decided which way to go. There are a number of metering trials taking place throughout the U K. The Isle of Wight being one of them, substantial metering trials there. To see if the installation of metering on a large scale, does influence the er the usage of water, and if it does, and if that shows savings in the amount of water people people need, then maybe the water companies can reduce their reduce their capital investment programmes to provide even more water. So that the cost . But it's early days yet and there's no there's no definite answer. But we'll have to find an answer by the years two thousand, because the way the legislation's written, means that by the year two thousand we can no longer use rateable value. So we've got to find an alternative. Most of our customers really prefer a system based on property type, be it semi detaches, terrace, detached, mansion, castle or whatever. Erm but whether we go that way it's not been decided yet. There is an optional metering scheme, and if you do live in a higher rateable value property, and you don't use er above average amounts of water, you'd probably you'd probably benefit from put a water in or have a water meter installed. So before you all nod off I'll just finish off. Er it's a large business is Severn Trent, er it's a growing business except we are in s in the water business in the U K water we are reducing numbers by about two percent a year. We're reducing our operating costs as well. But against that we've got these extra commitments in terms of higher quality which is again is pushing prices up. Our managing director Vic says in his market plan, that water services should be affordable, and I hope, I totally agree with that, they should be affordable, we shouldn't price people out of out of using our water services. And just finally I think compared to Europe we've got a lot to be proud of. Now if you want is it er is it the done thing to have questions? Yes Right. . I hope I can answer them. I I er just my background is er the dirty water side of the business rather than the clean water side. But I'll do my best. Yes? Er what is anything is being done about supplying er inclement weather conditions such as the snow we had a couple of years ago. When the water supply vanished because there wasn't pumps. Is it sort of beyond plan to No it's beyond the cost I think. Erm Put a generator in or som er Yeah. er a diesel engine to to We've looked Strategic sites were looked at after that event of December the eighth. I remember it well. Erm because we ran out of electricity on lunch time on the Saturday. That was restored on the Sunday, just at the same time as the water ran out. Erm yes there's been a been a long hard look at at our er vulnerability to to a shortage of of electricity. Erm that was strategic plans I think . We did have separate supplies in station. It was a completely unique event as far as we were concerned it'd never happened before and hopefully it'll never happen again. It always comes to a question of cost though. You know if it's a once in a hundred years event, is it worthwhile providing all the backup equipment you've got, for all the stations that you've got. Erm Hopefully we would be better prepared next time, and that we can get in generators quickly if we don't already have them on standby. Some places do have them on standby. Some places never ran out of water. Can you tell us something about the quality of water locally? Erm a number of years ago we read in the paper that the Farnsfield borehole was being updated and Mhm. cost erm to improve the quality of the water. And yet after that was completed I think the Water the Drinking Water Inspectorate condemned it as being one of the worst qualities of water in the country. Erm in terms of what? Nitrate? In terms of nitrates and other solids yes. Nitrate levels have been rising in the ground water in Nottinghamshire, certainly most of the bore-holes, for the last twenty or thirty years. And we presume due to our agriculture, the use of fertilizers on the land, erm not entirely due to that. Not entirely fertilizers but that seems to be er the main cause of it. They have set up nitrate sensitive zones in certain areas whereby farmers operate a different practice in within the the catchment area of a particular bore-hole. And more of those will come in because it's far better to prevent er not only nitrates but pesticides or anything else which is applied to land, getting into water. Because once it's in, it's far more expensive to get it out. So there are protection zones being, there are protection zones already in, and more are proposed. What we've done in North Notts is to sink some new bore-holes. And we are blending water supplies so that we can we can meet whatever limits are are applicable or appropriate. But if you have a problem with your water, in terms of taste or the quality, then you must phone us up. We'll give you a full report on what we're supplying. No problem about that. Nothing to hide. And if you've got some particular local problems, we'll we'll have a look at those as well. We are spe we are we're re-lining re-lining four thousand one hundred miles of mains. And re-laid seventeen hundred miles since nineteen eighty nine. In the town where I live, all the mains have been scraped and re-lined. The iron mains that were there. main cause of sort of discoloration problems. What what particular problem have you got? With your water? Well the taste. The taste. It's just the chlorine. It's er partly chlorine yes but it there are occasions when it smells like T C P. Mm. That's mostly because of a reaction with the washer in your tap. Erm have you reported it Oh yes yes we were told that nothing could be done about it. Oh well usually when you get T C P it's because the chlorine's reacting with a phenolic compound within the tap washer. And changing the washers usually does the trick. Erm we expect to see improvements on chlorine, but I can't give you a time . We had to boost up chlorine levels actually, to meet E C directives. I know the gentleman here thinks I shouldn't blame the E C for everything, but erm No. Not everything. But we did have to boost up chlorine levels in areas, because they weren't high enough. Er can I can I just follow on the question of local local water and the taste and quality of local water. Erm you're a bit dismissive about bottled water. But if I buy No no no. I'm n I wasn't dismissive. Cos I Well I buy it for my whisky because . If I buy if I buy bottled water, I get with that bottle, er an analysis of the water that I'm drinking. Yeah. It's there on the label for me to see. Well for exam well at least I know how much sodium I'm taking in or what You don't really. You know what's on the analysis bec because that's stated. But there's no there's guarantee that what you buy in the bottle complies to that analysis. Those aren't my words,those are the words of which, the consumer's association. Where do I where do I find the analysis for Severn Trent local water. You er either phone us up at Road at Nottingham, or you call in to see us, and we'll give you an an exact breakdown of what's in your water supply. Why don't you send a little list round when you have the bills out. Because the logistics'd be impossible. You cannot you couldn't split up all our customers from Birmingham on a bore-hole by bore- hole basis. It'd be impossible. Yes. The figures you gave us at the beginning I I seem to remember that you sell a lot more water abroad than in this country. And No we treat more water abroad. Pardon? We treat more water abroad. Treat more. I see. Because you employ five hundred people Mm. in other countries to nine thousand five hundred. That's right. The nine th nine thousand includes Biffa Waste, which is a waste disposal company as well. It's about seventeen hundred people in there. Erm and the there's we'll have some contractors as well working abroad. For most it's a lot of our services abroad are consultative. But we are actually running erm the the treatment works on Long Island in New York. And refurbishing that. This is Severn Trent Water International, it's not Severn Trent the local firm as it were. It's important that the company that side of the business, because e profits are there for the taking. We have to compete obviously. There's no competition locally. As it were apart from the bottled water that the gentleman there buys. That's why we're regulated. That's why we're regulated. But with the other companies that have been established, and all water companies have done the same, the way to increase profits is to go into er a business which you're in competition with other businesses and you stand or fail as to how well you do on that. But y the profits are there and you can make profits w outside of the control of the regulators. Can I just ask you then, in relation to your waste disposal business, which is a fashionable diversification. Pardon? Yes er but most other water authorities have got their er er subsidiary operating in waste disposal. Yeah. Don't don't you think that there's a conflict of interest there. Because vast quantities of this waste is tipped, it's land tipping. Mhm. Er and er obviously that does affect the ground water. Well it shouldn't do. Well er it shouldn't but it does . It shouldn't if it's tipped correctly and monitored correctly, and controlled correctly . Ah yes but it's not tipped correctly most of the time. As well I'll disagree with that. I mean there are problems with ground water in certain areas, because of the tipping practices that have been historical. But in today if you if you had a new landfill site developed today. Well then the control of that would be very stringent. Yes but then thinking about those that have been running for some time. Yeah. And there have been problems with with ground water in some of those areas. Not only in areas where there have been tips I might add. There are problems with ground waters in certain industrial areas where er factory premises have allowed solvents to leak. There was a case recently in Anglia er Anglia Water Cambridge Water Company sued a leather works for solvent over the years, to pollute the aquifer. And you know the sums were horrendous. Millions of pounds worth of damage. I mean they had to abandon the bore-hole . And prevention is better than cure. You have to prevent these substances entering into the ground waters. Because as I say if you've got to clean them up afterwards, the costs are horrendous. You say that all new houses er have no rateable value, are metered. How does the average er charge for metered water for those compare with the average for the other houses. I've no idea it depends how much water they use. Well I know but the average figure I mean there Erm there must be quite a number of houses in this category There are. and it would be a good guide I think for people as to whether to have meters or not. Well if you work out on sort of er thirty or forty gallons per head per day. Erm per person, yeah. You can work out how much water you're going to use. Unless you've got a huge garden or a huge Yeah. greenhouse that you want to to use tap water to irrigate. But that's about the domestic consumption. But the more appliances you have, the more washing machines, er more appliance washing machines, the more dishwashers, garbage grinders and this is sort of ilk. That's gonna push the water consumption higher. Is there any possibility of going to a separate system and using er non potable water for all these other activities which must take up about seventy five or eighty percent of the quantities? Probably a lot more actually. Yeah. Probably ninety percent of the water of more I would guess e erm is used for non potable usage. And I suppose if we'd got a clean sheet, and we started again, we'd do it differently. Er but to actually provide a duplicate system now,I I dread to think how much the cost would be. Erm I mean one way to do it of course is to say that none of our water's fit for drinking, and you all get bottled water then wouldn't you. Well that was a seriously mooted thing at one time of course. Erm a a a and the idea of having potable and non potable supplies is not viable anyway because the public health risk is too high. Is it viable to reduce the leakage ? Yeah. Is that a viable proposition? Yeah that's what we're spending a lot of money doing as well. Erm But is it viable? Well you'll never eliminate leakage because leakage is a global term for water that we can't account for. And it includes it in yeah it includes water which is leaking from customers premises. Its' the overflow that's operating at night maybe when the pressures . I mean one way we can accommodate that is to put pressure resistant valves in, maybe and drop the pressures a bit at night. But that leakage figure isn't just the leakage in our pipes, it's the leakage or the water that you can't account for going out of customers premises and factories as well. Well at least this would be a good er on that wouldn't it. It would mean I mean we've just been involved with one of the hospital because there's an audit commission report on costs to hospital services. Which said basically they paid too much money for water. And we got involved with the local, National Healthy Facility I think they're called. Their energy engineer got in touch with us very early on. And erm it was we looked at one hospital and quite clear over the years, but there was an internal leak somewhere. And we were able to find that for them. But erm reducing leakage is a i is a is a priority for us. But at the same time we'll never eliminate it completely. Never. I think the average figure's about nineteen percent. If you add that to the eight ninety percent that needn't be potable, it seems to be very attractive to er deliver it in bottles doesn't it. Well it out yet. It's something I've thought about but I I I guess the cost would be horrendous but they wouldn't I don't know. What would it cost to in for me to install a meter in my house? The meters are supplied free of charge, it's er you can either o it yourself or you can get your local plumber to fit it. It has to be fitted in accordance with the bye-laws erm and we give out advice on where it should be fitted. But the meters free. Mm, Probably thirty or forty pounds at the most. Why why do you charge erm at least for for domestic premises, seventeen percent more? We moved in in the Autumn from . Mhm. And the the charge the pence in the pound, and I don't about the forget the rateable value. The Yeah. pence in the pound here, is seventeen percent higher, than that that we were charged This is for what? For water? For water. Yes. For water and sew Well actual water water is seventeen, sewage is sixteen. Is that a technical reason or is that purely money judgement? There were eight charging zones in Severn Trent with difference p pence erm rateable values. Oh so within Severn Trent I see. Erm it looks like you've gone from a lower cost one to a higher cost one. Mm. But if you go just across the river, to Anglia. You'll find it's a lot more expensive. Especially on measured. If you've got a water in and you pay not only your water supply in but also your sewage out on the basis of what comes through the meter. So if you take a hundred gallons on a day meter, you're charged for a hundred gallons of water going out as sewage, er the Anglia rate is is is double ours for sewage. if you go to Marks and Spencer or Sainsbury's Yeah. a tin of beans in the south will cost the same as a tin on beans in the north. Well yeah. It's the same firm. We we we regionalized we have regionalize charges speaking. Er this is there is some disparity the price for er measured supplies is the same, wherever you are. It's the rateable value charges which were different. And I can't really give you a satisfactory explanation as to why that is. In if everyone had a meter, Yeah. er as to what would happen to the metered charges as as against what they are at the moment. Not as far as I'm aware at least not I've read as to what would be the effect of that. But if there was a reduction in usage, if there was a reduction in usage, because people had got water meters in, then our charges or our costs for providing additional security er in terms of more reservoirs, increased pumping etcetera etcetera, would would be reduce. And we would pass on those benefits to the customer. Incidentally I don't know if you've been to Anyone been to Reservoir? Yes. Because that's our a reservoir which was commissioned last year, to secure supplies for the East Midlands, cost us a hundred and seven million pounds. But it's a really good place to go to if you've got a any spare time and I'm sure spare time, it's well worth going there, erm you can hire bikes. Er you can hire sail boats and er it's I I've been there a couple of times. I went there for the opening and I'm really proud to be associated with water because I think it's I think it's a wonderful piece of engineering and excellent. Right is there's no more questions, thank you very much Mr . Thank you. And a vote of thanks . Mr President, fellow members of Probus, I on your behalf would like to propose a vote of thanks to John , for the very lucid explanation he's given to us on the operations of Trent Water. Er just one small question from me John. Have Severn Trent got on the bandwagon yet, for tidying up the water in Brussels. Well Yes. Not necessarily Brussels but Belgium we're got a joint venture company and we are sending our expertise to help them sort out the I think it's the erm the Flanders region anyway Brussels. So we've got an involvement there. So possibly that might reduce our costs. Well hopefully. Well thank you John for that very interesting talk, and perhaps the members of Probus would join me in giving you that C C P policy between nineteen forty six and forty eight, the rise and fall of absolute egalitarianism. During the course of the third revolution and civil war between nineteen forty six and forty nine, land policy of the Chinese Communist Party underwent a process of radicalization followed by moderation and was accompanied by measures that attempted to purify the Party itself. In April nineteen forty eight Mao wrote, whoever argues absolute egalitarianism is wrong. It appeared to many that the of the C C P was moving away from one of the most fundamental principles of socialism. Indeed by this time Mao is specifically advocating that the Party ought to take a more cautious and less radical approach to land reform so as to not antagonize the interests of the middle and rich peasants. But surely the aim of all communists is to overthrow capitalism and eliminate all class distinctions rather than working round them? In this paper I will examine the reasons behind the, the C C P policy through this crucial period of land reform in China. Due to the anti-Japanese war of nineteen thirty seven to forty five, the United Front was formed which was committed to the maintenance of a broad alliance of classes. There was a severe moderation of land reform policies to only rent and interest reduction with restrictions in and taxation too. There was a hint that this was a short term strategy, Mao at the seventh national congress in April nineteen forty five argued the C C P has made a major concession to land to the tiller. The communist want to return to this old policy but had to consolidate his position first with rent and interest reductions. In fact a moderate policy continued after the war but there was increasing cases of the landlords manipulating peasants in order to evade rent reductions. The newly liberated areas from the Japane er in the newly liberated areas from the Japanese the sit situation was more explosive. The peasants were taking things into their own hands through the anti movements in their settling of accounts. In effect land redistribution was happening in advance of C C P official policy. An attempt to regain control over the peasants' movement was passed nineteen forty six. Although the document land to the tiller it was essentially moderate in its tone and protected the interests of mi rich and middle peasants as well as industry and commerce. Moderate land reform was a cau cautious approach in in that how that the communists had to maintain a fragile balanc balance between the two fundamental aims of the maintenance of support and the increase of production. The moderate proposals of May the fourth would not have held however due to the outbreak of the civil war. Given the limitations of confiscation in the May the fourth directive, it was to be revealed that the provisions were largely ignored and land was taken. Most of the C C P areas underwent reform in a few months. About sixty million people received land through redistribution. Early in nineteen forty seven Mao wrote the land problem has been solved and the policy of land to the tiller has been carried out. This is a great victory. This comment reveals where many of the misconceptions that led to the official radicalization of land policy towards which ended up in the land October nineteen forty seven. Provisions of May the fourth had been seriously overstepped but the communists did not realize this and thought that more land was available for redistribution. This was based upon their assumption that how that eighty percent of the land was owned by ten percent of the population which in actual fact wasn't the case. So the C C P decided to press ahead with mor with the more radical campaign to get the mess masses' support and essentially their power. In my opinion the rise of absolute egalitarianism was a tactical move, the C C P hoped that land reform would be the key to the rapid mobilization of peasants which would enable them to defeat the superior forces of the K M T. They thought that the advantages of heightening peasant mobilization outweighed the drawbacks of narrowing its support base. The involvement of land reform would bind the peasants to the communists, and these hopes seemed to be confirmed in a rise of the P L A and militia recruitments when land reform had been re redistributed the land had been redistributed. The C C P hoped that the peasants would increase production of food and when working on their own land because of erm because of desire to increase production, that the C C P left commerce and industry untouched. They wanted to get rid of the feudal not capitalist elements of landlords which had to be destroyed. In many of the rural areas, however, reform tended to be uneven. Progressive landlords still owned a lot of land and redistribution often didn't go to the poorest peasants but to peasants who were members of the Communist Party. It would seem that their, the Party had been infiltrated. Indeed argued in his nineteen forty seven document that the May the fourth directive ha dire directive hadn't been thorough enough. He saw three main problems, one, the lack of thoroughness in the guidance of the movement, two, defects in the Party organization and three, bureaucratic leadership, I E the cadres were very commandist rather than giving the peasants political education. It was feared that landlords and rich peasants had en entered the Party erm but wh which had increased from tens of thousands to two point seven million in eleven years. According to Mao this had allowed the wrong people to enter therefore in order to advance with reform purification of the Party was necessary. This th w Wong actually calls this the ratification of the Party which can be cross-referred to the nineteen thirty seven policies were happening. This self-criticism also con er this self-criticism of the Party and purification also contributed to erm the rise in absolute egalitarianism which thought would thorough and satisfy the peasants but problems arose from er absolute egalitarianism in that how that the interests of middle peasants were encroached upon and rich peasants were severely under attack. The result was a support base in the C C P which was dangerously narrowed and production decreased. Over enthusiastic purification led to the dampening Party m morale and cohesion and therefore the ability of the communists to fight the civil war was threatened. This period can be seen as almost a power struggle between the K M T and the C C P competing for peasant support, and the policy changes during this period reflect a change from mass mobilization and smashing local maximizing agricultural production. The reasons towards this sh erm the reason why that you had the rise in er absolute egalitarianism was that the Communist Party thought that they'd be able to keep the speed up for the process of land reform. However they seemed to realize that it was alienating other sectors of society when the C C P could least afford to. They had to reconcile the interests of poor peasants with the larger national goals of providing for the war and this meant that how the C C P had to take a more moderate erm policy. Erm they were hoping to use agrarian reform to mobilize mass support as well as economic and social change. It never associated ma agrarian reform as an end it itself. Ideal ideog ideologically it was committed to a nation where private property was abolished. If its policy seemed more or less radical at different times it wasn't necessarily changing its view of land reform, but it was keeping its final goal of socialism in sight so it had to make short term expediencies. The CC C P Par army was a quarter the size of the K M T and had little money and no tanks, therefore it needed mobilization of the peasants in the villages, they needed the peasants to volunteer to join the P L A and to protect their own property so they thought that this would be an incentive for them. By the radicalizing policy the C C P hoped to appeal to those peasants who still hadn't received much or any land. Erm however absolute egalitarianism showed that it couldn't actually work in practice because there wasn't they underestimated the amount of land which, that could be redistributed and you had leftist and rightist deviations where which meant that how that industry and commerce was being threatened and landlords were just being indiscriminately killed. Erm this meant that how that er erm some of the problems actually arose from the outline landlord itself er by land law itself in that it discussed land reform in very general terms and the policy towards middle and rich peasants was left unclear erm which meant that how that classes were being mis-classified and the movement was getting out of hand. Erm it may have been deliberate in that how the Par Party couldn't be seen as too radical in order to maintain er as broad a support as possible and allow the peasants to erm give them leeway to do what they wanted to do, but erm it's quite interesting though that whatever the Communist Party did, people were going to respond in which ever way they wanted to whether or not there was a law there, but they still had to sort of erm establish their legitimacy. Erm als other problems which arose from the outline land law was in its deliberate ambiguity er in its deliberate erm tt sort of ambiguity because it left reg it left the law to be interpreted by regional areas which meant that how that erm in some places they totally misinterpreted the law but the Communist Party had to have this flexibility because China was such a vast country and you couldn't just impose one policy per se across the country. Erm the problems of the implementation of the nineteen forty seven outline land law arose from two misapprehensions by the Party leaders. One, firstly, if equal distribution was to be achieved peasant mobilization and increase produc erm if equally distribution was to achieve its goals of peasant mobilization and increased production, there had to be enough land available to bring most peasants up to an independent pe peasant status without encroaching upon the existing er middle peasants. Erm and two, aware of this impossibility the C C P leaders saw that the impurity of the local Party as a problem while that though this played some part erm the C C P play was actually exaggerated according to. He said that how that the real problem was the expansion of the C C P between nineteen thirty seven to forty seven and the inadequate training. The, in effect the Communist Party had to choose between either equal distribution or the preservation of the middle peasants. However in nineteen thirty s nineteen forty seven this wasn't actually realizing, it was only later on that they saw the incompatibility of the two aims. And so throughout this period it was them er trying importance upon these two goals. Erm as the scale of the problem became clear however the Party was forced to react and in a series of directives between February and May nineteen forty eight the leadership established more moderate ground rules for land reform. The new aims we was the abolition of feudalism and increased production. Mao specifically said in April nineteen forty five that whoever argues absolute egalitarianism is wrong. Erm the Communist Party needed the approval of the majority of peasants erm before land reform could take place and there was there's this sort of chicken and egg problem in that how that do you have land reform in order to mobilize peasant support or is it the peasant support that's going to enable land reform t to take place successfully. Erm by nineteen forty eight erm the Communist Party had argued that three conditions had to be there for land reform to take place and that was that how that the area had to be militarily stable, the majority of peasants erm rich peasants had to be mobilized er had to want to be demanding land reform and the Party cadres there had to be adequate in numbers and quality. Where these three conditions weren't met then policy erm reducing interest and rents was to be taking place. Erm by nineteen forty eight the military situation had changed in favour of the Communist Party and their policies reflected this. Erm by nineteen forty eight no in in nineteen forty seven with the rise of absolute egalitarianism, the policy of narrowing its base had helped them to erm get the peasant support and to get into power but that was no longer necessary erm and the radicalization of land reform it appears had been based upon false premises which had created problems in the countryside and the Party. However through this radicalization of land reform the Party had learnt valuable lessons and that was the impossibility of egalitarianism with the demands of middle peasants which couldn't they conflicted one another. However this radicalization in land policy had allowed them to defeat the K M T and essentially led them to get into power so one has elements of pragmatism in their ideology and that how that you've got to realize that the Communist Party was in a very precarious situation throughout these years, that how that although they did have a kind of er policy in th there ultimate aim of socialism, and although it seare appeared s quite strange that they were almost promoting capitalism, that how that their aim during this period was to eliminate feudalism which was the s and then to establish capitalism in order that socialism could take place. Fine, thanks very much. Erm that's good but there's an awful lot there, it needs breaking down a bit. Erm your in a sense what you're, what you're arguing is that y y you start off here with a s as we were picking up from last week, a c a c in, in a sense that land reform is, is already taking place, there is this sort of groundswell from the masses that to move beyond the, the moderate policy and that is then formalized in the May the fourth directive which marks like the return to land reform going back to and then y y y y you've got the implementation of that May the fourth directive and then out of a very difficult position in nineteen forty seven when they, they are under attack from the Kuomintang and i in the spring of nineteen forty seven is actually taken by Kuomintang. They, they needed a, a sort of a, a set of more radical policies to, to get full mobilization and it's out of that that the outline agrarian law comes, and then they realize the mistakes of that and there's a, there's a pull back to the right so it's, it's that kind of move to the left and then back to the right. Okay. Erm Now can, can we go back to to the May the fourth directive. Erm h how erm dunno, how many of you looked at the May the fourth directive? How did it strike you as a document? I mean what what what was your your feeling from it? That there was a that they were gonna be trailing behind the peasant movement and that how that they had to sort of get a hold over all the all the changes that were happening in the country. There was a real desire to get power and that how that they thought that mass mobilization was the only way they could do it. Er right. So i is i it is quite a leftist movement in, in, in that it is, it is calling for radicalization, calling for recognizing the need for mass mobilization? It's calling for getting better control over what's happening in the country. Erm it's not, it's not Right. necessarily calling for radicalization cos it was forced erm I, I, it appeared to me that how that the Communist Party would have continued a moderate policy had the peasants not erm been demanding further radical change and in actual fact the tone of the document's quite moderate and it's protecting middle peasants, rich peasants, even some landlords who had remained loyal to the Party so it's not at all radical but erm it's just it's radical in the sense that how that it wants to get rid of feudalism, but it's not getting rid of landlords per se as a class. Right. S so, so it i it's a radical document but it's moderate at the same time? They're mm It's, it's erm I think it's quite interesting cos it's a different style, in a sense it's just setting out some goals that they want to achieve but not really giving any clear instruction of how you can achieve those goals. So it's unlike a law. Well it's, it I mean it's, it's a different kind of style which is Yeah. quite interesting and it's quite vague in a way Right. it's just a speech given and this is Yeah. supposed to be adopted Mhm. as, I don't know in what sense it was supposed to be taken but it's just sort of outlining some objectives. Mm. But it's n I still can't reconcile why it was kept secret cos surely this is a fundamental point cos it is because they can't openly declare that how that they are moving away from the United Front, but if they're trying to show that they're moving in line with the peasants' demands surely they want to show that to the peasants an so there, there's it's more that how th the Party cadres have been acting out of step rather than them making it clear to the peasants. Mm. But er er er Cos if they were trying to get peasant support and erm showing the importance of peasants instead of the United Front they would've made it public. Wh why? Well so that the peasants realized that how that it's a communist I know but how many peasants are gonna be able to read it? They probably read it. But you're going to have erm peasant associations and their leaders are gonna be able to understand erm But who was the directive given to? It's given to the Party itself. Party cadres? Yes. Right. So then Party cadres are going to implement it? Yeah. Right. Bu but surely this is something a at this stage you can't make public because you are still committed to the United Front There's still a a sort of truce six month truce i in the sense that so if you come out public with this you are, you are breaking the United Front and you would be seen to break the United Front. So somehow you, you, you, you've got to get these ideas through th that you you've recognized that it, it's, it's necessary to move on beyond the pol the moderate policies of the United Front but you can't be seen to be doing that. So isn't the only way you could do it would be to issue it secretly to cadres you would then expect the cadres to take this up and promote it but you haven't actually broken the conditions in the United Front. If anything it's probably more just a suggestion. Erm cos I think a lot of the, I mean a lot of land redistribution had already been taking place in since about the since about January of nineteen forty six, so I think the May the fourth directive is just erm an official, well a secret official acceptance of this. Because You said suggestion? Well a suggestion in that because it, well because it was secret and also because it was quite vague, it didn't actually set out that land redistribution was supposed to take place. How was a er er er y y y y you're a cadre and you receive this how do you take it? Erm I suppose, I mean it would depend on where you were going back to, to where you which, which region then because I mean there was such a difference in in what the villages were going to erm accept. Yeah. Bu bu bu but would you take it just as a suggestion or would you take it as a No they'd probably take it as an a as a er er n okay to just go and just Yeah. go for it. Yeah. I mean quite, if, if 's saying this you do it. I mean there's no oh I might, just a suggestion I To do what? Basically they're just telling the Party to consider the demands of the peasants and do what the peasants want but then er then in the first paragraph they say that you ought to erm they ought to support the masses in their erm implementation of agrarian reform, you have to give them planned guidance so it's almost that how they're telling the cadres to go out there and almost manipulate the peasants demands into more of a communist one. Yes but surely if you're saying in combating Chinese collaborators, settling accounts with landlords and reducing rents and interest, the people have seized the land directly from the landlords thus realizing the principle of the land to the tiller where the mass movement has been thorough the land problem is being or has basically been solved. In some places the movement has progressed to the point where the principle of equal redistribution, equal distribution of land has been put into effect with everybody, even the landlords, getting of land . Now if I was a cadre and I received that I think I would be thinking right erm if I really want to be at the forefront of this that's the policy that I want to promote erm and if the peasants in my area are not demanding this and not achieving this well we, I, I can't be seen not to be going it, I've gotta go with this. I mean would, would, wouldn't you think it is a, a directive that if it's not happening in your area you make it happen? Oh but I dunno erm cos there's always this thing about following the mass ideal what peasants want. I mean er it's, it's a i i it's sort of er you can read into it various sort of suggestions for radicalism but at the same time it's got a lot of erm you know sort of and stuff about the rich peasants, erm land of the rich peasants should not be confiscated Yeah. Yeah it doesn't really say how you, how you could achieve the goal I mean it just says you know don't hurt the middle peasants give the poor peasants land it doesn't say, you know, But it, yeah, I mean I quite take all of these qualifications but if sh if you take the first couple of paragraphs doesn't it seem to be a call to, to radical land reform? Yes but did the Party want, did the Party mean it at this stage? Well I don't know,ha ha haven't you got a position where er as, as we began to, to see last week, there is this radicalization coming in but the, the er i i it's the peasants who've moved to the left of the Party, you're right, that they are inappropriate to this very moderate policy of rent reduction erm a tax on collaborators land is being redistributed and isn't saying right we,i i in the same way that, that Mao was identifying the problem in in , either you, you follow the masses or you, you lead them but, but thereof we are behind them and a sense the Party has gotta recognize that, it's gotta catch up with the masses and isn't that first paragraph saying look this is the way you should be going, that there are peasants who are redistributing the land and land reform is in effect taking place and that's what we want to see? I mean surely i i it does clearly mark the return to land reform? And there is this directive to cadres saying we are returning to land reform. Now I think if, if, if I'd've received this I'd've thought right we're off. Erm and then okay you, a bit later on you'd say well yes w we, we need to be a bit careful about this erm we mustn't be too hard on, on the middle peasant etcetera. Bu but basically we are, we are now going for land reform and if the, if th th the momentum from this is coming from the spontaneous actions of the peasants themselves, and if it's not coming then we've gotta give them the guidance to move in that direction. But in that case is it a bit like the report where you, you, you've got this quite radical introduction and then when you come on to the, the bits at the end it's, it is really quite moderate? Erm in both of them it's, they're saying that how they're falling behind and they ought to lead them as opposed to joining them. Right. In both the documents Yes. the report and this one. Yes. Yeah. Yeah I think it's, it's quite constant throughout the sort of, what,eighteen different points about how things should take place. And they, they themselves aren't, well, they have similar characteristics I think, a lot of the points. Yes. But, but i i if, if you just started erm if you just started on, on sort of the second page of the directive with, with the twelve points if you just go through those, they are all fairly moderate. I mean even, even the first one firmly support the demands of the masses realize the principle of land to the tiller by taking land from the landlords as they combat collaborators, settle accounts with landlords, reduce rent and interest and get landlords to rech to, to return the average half portion of rent and interest . Now apart from by taking land from the landlords which is pretty in unspecific, all of the others are, are s are straight, very moderate, very limited acquisitions and then if you go on where you've gotta protect the middle peasant etcetera, then they are really very low key methods, you, you, you would not see that I think as being the return to land reform. But you're given this very general instruction to begin with that yes we are returning to land reform and that the peasants are, are seizing land and this is what you should be supporting, and then when you come on to they,as you're saying that they really are quite moderate. And there, maybe there is something of a conflict between those two bits. But there's the potential for it to be interpreted quite radically and Right. because they don't give a specific definition as to what a landlord is or a rich peasant or a middle peasant meant that how that there was a lot of flexibility within that and it's only later that they have to reissue those two documents on how to analyze the classes which erm which had been published in nineteen thirty which they felt that you know the Party's moving too far away, but why didn't they do it at the time? Erm Well I don't think you'd want to, presumably you, you, you wouldn't want to constrain it. Yeah. So it was all deliberate? That's what is says isn't it? It says in order to keep ninety percent of the population on our side. It actually just says that in the directive. Yes. Yeah. isn't very specific, it gives eighteen different things you should do through all of them, you could just get Mm. I mean that's the Yeah. I mean wou would, as a cadre receiving this would you have been happy to take this up and implement it? Yeah I think so cos it's, well I mean I think it would probably be impossible to implement, to satisfy a lot of the requirements in it, but yeah it's quite, it's Right. They but the Party cadres, particularly in the newly acquired areas from the Japanese, they, they wanted to seek revenge and they Yes. they wanted to er you know given these guidelines I'd think right let's, as you were saying, just go for it and Right. So certainly if, if, if you were I think that would give them the sanction to if you were a fairly radical cadre, if you erm really did believe in land reform etcetera this would, this would give you the go ahead to promote land reform. Right. Er yeah and if you were a, if you were a rightist cadre that had doubts about all this and actually wanted to go the slow more moderate line, you could also find enough in here to be able to, to sort of curtail things a bit? I mean they've already made the mistake once of trying to lay down the law too heavily erm th this might seem, this seems to, to accommodate most I mean how erm if you've got a cadre in a village I mean how supportive is he and how how is he going to implement er radical change? I mean what, what does, what means does he have at his disposal? Erm only through working with the peasants surely. Right. Erm in terms of taking up their ideas, guiding them, encouraging them etcetera an and saying look, you know, this is okay er er er I mean to an extent that would depend on how much military security there was in the area. Erm in terms of if you, if you've got a very strong presence you might adopt a different line than if you haven't. Mm. So you've got er those kind of problems but er there ought to be some troop support for you. Erm but basically you, you would be going in to a village to, to try and encourage land reform with this document or knowing that this document existed. So it's consistent with this grass roots initiative that Yes. happening now. Okay. Yeah. Yes I mean it's, it is very much growing out of that. Okay was there anything else from the, the directive itself you, you wanted to raise? come to the situation here where it says, you know, it could be Yeah. And it's, it's, it's vague enough to be able to do that. I mean if it,wh wh what it is trying to do is, is to is to formalize the fact that land reform was already taking place, and therefore you, you've got to give the go ahead to that Yeah. but you, you can't make that public and you are still worried that it can go too far to the left and therefore you, you, you've got a range of, of erm quite moderate proposals which come in which,i if they were implemented, would restrain and would maintain the su the support of the ninety percent,th that you are still only seeking to antagonize really those, those landlords who are not going to be prepared to come back within the system. An and in, in that sense it's quite moderate, and in the sense of, of protecting middle peasants it's quite moderate erm but in, in terms of encouraging the move back to, to more radical land reforms it is an important step forward. Mhm. I was just thinking could you consider it a panic measure? Rather than something which is and calculated, you know, I don't think that I, I wouldn't see it as a panic measure. It's just that they they were worried that they were losing, they were worried that they were losing support, of losing cos the peasants are off on their own, you know, what's the logical path. You're a party I it, it's your means of getting back in control then? Yeah. That it is happening, you've either got to just let it happen Yeah. or you've gotta try and stop it, or you've gotta get in there and and sort of organize it, take it on your shoulders, and I think this, this is a recognition that erm changes were taking place which were taking peasants beyond the straight moderate programme. Because th th th th there, there'd been statements from Mao until the end of nineteen forty five where he's still talking about land to the tiller being some way off Yeah. i in, in, in that our present policy, which will continue, is simply the rent reduction, interest rate reduction. Erm now given, what less than five months er before this May the fourth directive, Mao is still saying that, this marks quite an important shift in policy. And i i i it's, it's a clear statement, at least to the cadres, that that moderate policy has now been abandoned and we are now off into land reform because this is what is happening anyway. Because these very moderate policies have allowed the peasants to come through with actions which in effect mean land reform and we need to get back in control of that. Yeah. That's what hanging on to there cos like it's just like erm the Party's worried that it's getting a bit left behind and needs to Yeah. catch itself up. Yeah. Not because, you know, it's, it's a revolutionary strategy but Right. it's just the pure political aspect that because people are moving on and you need to be seen to be you need to use that for your own advantage. Right. Which is itself. Right. But I think he's a bit worried I read into this that there's a current there where you know the peasants are getting very radical, our is we can't be too radical and therefore we need to issue something which is gonna . Yeah. But it's also fears that the Party itself is becoming too radical too, they always want to control two elements and I mean on the last page, point number sixteen it says that how that erm tt that how that the Communist Party members ought to refrain from securing undue benefits by taking advantage of their leading position. Ah right. And so that shows that how that they I mean it implies that that's happening and that that ought to be controlled. So they're los they're, they're falling behind the peasant movement but they're also losing control over their own party members and that was as important as erm following the peasants. I mean they need to have consolid I mean they need to consolidate their own party before they can even go out there and try to direct the masses. Cos Right. the struggle's gonna be misdirected. How, how are the Party members taking advantage of this? Erm by the land that's being redistributed, they are actually keeping it for themselves, and that how that they're Mm. perhaps instilling more revolutionary erm ideas in the peasants. How how were they taking more themselves? Well just when the land's redistributed they would give their own families disproportionately more land. Or perhaps through erm corruption in that the landlords are paying backhanders to them so that the landlords were left in effect with more land than they ought to have been. Mm. Right. Wasn't it erm also that the people who got in there first often took the most Mm. took the wealth, and they were often people that were elected to cadres because they showed initiative. Right ho hold on, so, so this is taking place within the village? Yeah. That i it would be the people who stood up first and accused the landlords and took the lead in the settling accounts procedure, they were more likely to be able to, to get more in the way of than anybody else, that they would get more land, more erm better quality land the animals, implements etcetera and those sort of,th those peasants who were taking the lead were actually members of the Party were they? Mm. Right. Well that's that's what If er in the anti-traitor movements it was also that it was the Party cadres that were taking the lead, but in the settling of accounts the peasants themselves in advance of erm what the Communist Party was I i i in what sense were these people Party cadres then? I mean i i i the these are individual peasants from a village who are standing up and taking the lead in criticizing landlords etcetera but, but they, they are not the Party cadres coming in from outside. Because i if you're from outside the village you would have no entitlement to land in the village at all would you? So, so i i it's peasants who have been radicalized by Party cadres who themselves are then becoming members of the Communist Party and are taking advantage of that position by getting more than they're entitled to. Right. Okay. I mean wh do, do you think this was a widespread process? Well yeah Obviously yes because of the amount of land that was redistributed. I i it's saying something about the motivation of the people who who are doing this, those peasants who were taking the lead and becoming members of the Party. Because i in, in theory presumably they s they shouldn't have been abusing their position, they shouldn't be gaining more because the whole point was to do it for the masses particularly, I mean if you were a Party cadre erm you shouldn't be getting more out of it than anybody else. According to 's account there was quite a lot of abuse by the Party members who had actually managed to blackmail and embroil different peasants or Mm. landlords and they used to do whatever they wished to do. Erm Right. either, you know, gain land or do things with people. I didn't think there was that much bribing but there were sort of women seducing young peasants who'd come into a bit of money but I, there weren't any accounts of like actually communists bribing Yeah there was a I thought there was a, there was a full chapter on how the cadres and the Party members sort of went beyond their allowed position and took Yes. advantage of their position. So is at least providing the opportunity for that? Oh yes, Well it was also how they distributed it as well cos it needn't necessarily just be the cadres, it was dunno there's a scene where they the house, like you get in a queue take what you want Like a car boot sale. But er wh why from the point of view of the peasants was this radicalization taking place? Because in a sense the, the whole our analysis of the was that this er very moderate policy of rent reduction, interest rate reduction, of building up reductions, that in itself was producing the required results wasn't it? Well why was it producing the required results because it, in fact it was beyond what it erm you know it specifically was set out to do. Cos in actual fact there was a, a lot of sort of de facto redistribution because er some of these account settling things were just so ridiculous you know make them pay for crimes their family had committed over the last sixty years or whatever. So in actual fact they, they they, they, they didn't pay it back they give up their land Mm. and so it was just another way of Right. during rent reduction ? Yes. Was it, during accounts it was. Was it? During Mm Bu bu bu but why why is that happening? Because wh when, when we were looking at, at, at the I mean sort of things the implication to me seemed to be that, that this in itself is a successful policy, rent reduction, interest rate reduction methods improving er productivity, increasing input, in themselves are satisfying the demands of the peasantry and you would not need to go beyond that, I mean well didn't need to, he isn't the ideal, but he didn't need to go and he, he was doing very well out of it. S so, so where is this radicalization coming from? I mean is it that the rent reduction interest rate reduction is not working and in order for the peasant to get enough for themselves, they needed to go further? Or are they just greedy and saying well we're doing quite well out of rent reduction, but if we, you know if we the landlords, we're gonna get some more? I think the fact that the Japanese had surrendered must have something to do with it cos then they probably had a chance to attack the people who'd er collaborated with the Japanese. Right. they wouldn't just accept rent reductions from Right so after nineteen forty five there cer there certainly would have been a momentum towards this in the areas where there'd been a strong Japanese presence because there would be more collaborators and there would be some more obvious targets. Mm. But in the old liberated areas like say around i i i in theory none of this should be necessary, very little of it should've been happening. Yeah. But it might also be happening where the Communist Party have provided some sort of secure physical presence and where if, as a result of past exploitation, there was a substantial degree of antagonism towards landlords which, it would be that that was carried out. But it, it needn't necessarily be erm the kind of direct material gain in terms of well we need to go beyond rent reduction because rent reduction is not, hasn't given us enough, because in theory rent reduction ought to be giving you as much you need. Maybe the erm peasant er their desires are just growing and, you know, reduction I, I want a bit more. Right. A subtle change in psychology. Yes. They also had I just think it was a momentum that was caused by some villages feeling safer from the nationalists as they got further and further from the front and therefore more and more people a bit f erm being willing to sort of talk again, shout up against the, the landlords and as they saw, as they saw that their neighbours were getting land, all the others decided well they're getting land, we might as well talk to, have a talk about them the problems and the harsh treatment that we've had in, in years before. So what's happened to our moral economy? cos you're an opportunist. Yeah. Mm. Just, just like that, almost? Yeah, I think Well you've got a lot of nationalism as well cos er a lot of them article forty seven when they, they said that the problem of the nation was the result of the landlords, and so there's all this sort of nationalist and there's also Mm. party erm line saying that, identifying anyone with any power in the community as er well you can identify them so therefore you've already got that directive and then you've got Yes. you imply that it's er I mean quite easily Right, yes. Yes. But if, if we, if w we accepted the moral economy, which was that the peasant has a, a view of what is right and fair and once that fairness is established for him, that's it, he doesn't want to go any further than this. What we're, in effect what we're saying is that for a a number of years the Communist Party has provided, has made that moral economy work i in a s and made it work very well because rents have been reduced more than the peasants would expect erm er interest rate is extremely low. The conditions of the moral economy have been met, okay the landlords have been forced to if one accepted that was the way in which the peasants saw the world they would not have gone beyond that. I i in a way, way th that they're going beyond it not because the Party's encouraging them to do it, but because they're doing it themselves. Now does that call into question the, the moral economy at all? Does, does it call into question the fact that that was really what the peasants did think and believe, or were the peasants opportunists, and if they felt they could get away with anything they would get away with anything? Isn't it more the case that it's not so much what they're trying to get away with, it's just that how what was happening the peasants did see the world that they were in but with the Communist Party and the revolution that the idea is to change the way the peasants see the world and how they view themselves Right. which is what Right. So they're changing the way structures, their possibilities I mean at one stage they would have been at a certain level hadn't got a landlord their income but that's within one particular moral economy, now the idea here is to break that down, you know, just get rid of the circle altogether. But also the moral economy low rates so presumably means less of the sort of loyal so presumably, you know, with all this in the earlier period that erm people are gonna be, you know, have less ties towards with people, traditional ties, it's much more , so they would just see people who were higher up in society with more other people with, with, you know rather than Right. Yeah Within, oh sorry. Within the moral economy there was potential for them to be revolutionary though because erm you had this sub-culture which was Yes. very much part of, which ran alongside this moral economy Mm. and so when the system clearly wasn't working, the peasants would form their own collectives and Yes. erm supporting agencies and stuff so it's not necessarily running against the the idea of a moral economy, just that moral economy developing its revolutionary potential Yes. and that's what Mao saw in nineteen twenty seven. Right. Yes. So obviously there are a number of one is that i it may be that the old moral economy worked because the peasants recognized that, in a sense, that was the way they w well they, they could not stand up and criticize the landlord th the, the most they could do was to try and get the landlord to behave in a reasonable way, and that within that there would then be the sub-culture, the counter-culture of, of beginnings of mutual aid and what is happening in is in part that the communists are making them think the old moral economy work, but in part they are picking up on those sub- culture bits because the, the, the whole of mutual aid idea is, is coming from existing peasant cooperations. But what they're doing which is more important than that, they are beginning to change the way in which the peasant sees the world. Er that they are changing a whole range o of non-economic variables which allow the peasant the world to see the world doesn't have to be like this we can actually question the landlord and not only can we get away with it but we can get something out of it. And once that has begun to change, the peasant is off because he, he, he, he's begun to see a new world that he can realize. How widespread now is erm the education movement now in you have much more schools, now is this spreading? Erm tt yes but not er er w w once, once the war education finishes, we are talking about the, the whole of north China right the way through Manchuria Right. erm I E you've got an enormous area where sometimes you're moving in very quickly, and particularly in Manchuria y you're trying to get there extremely quickly, and you, you haven't got the time to build up that kind of infrastructure, but that is gonna come later. So I, I don't think it's there er and it can't be created quickly enough. Mm yeah. Also what struck me was now that they they're not fighting the Japanese erm they're not required to make the sacrifices of war that they were so perhaps they're going to think right let's see what we can make out of this, I don't, I no longer have to pay X tax because Right. there are no more soldiers to maintain Yes. what can I do, well I mean the there are, but I mean well they're not, it's not as expensive is it, once your The, the Party's not gonna reduce its tax but it's, it's fighting the at least as expensive as fighting But surely the the, some of the burdens on the peasants surely gotta be less now that they're no longer fighting the Japanese as well. But then why would Mao in nineteen forty five say that how that they'd made a major concession to land to the tiller but that this is a correct one and they're going to, that land reform has to be taken in stages and they're going to first of all reduce rent and, I mean er Yes, that's what you're implying is that how that they had a radical policy in mind but because of the war it had to be moderated but I, somehow I tend to believe the reverse, that how that they may have continued the moderate policy but was forced into it because of circumstances to, forced to erm into radicalizing their policies. The they certainly moved back to radicalization much more quickly than Mao had, had expected Mm. erm and that presumably in, in part is because there is this radical groundswell from the peasants in, in part because it would need a new policy after nineteen forty five wouldn't you because not just on, on the financial side but er er a lot of your mobilization has come through,a as you say, nationalism now once the Japanese are defeated, that's finished. You've also lost your easy targets in terms of up until that point you could always very legitimately attack Japanese collaborators. Now you y you, you've gotta find a substitute for that. Don't you also attack the church? In effect you, you, you, you, you've got the church, you've got erm you, you might sort of move from collaborators with the Japanese to collaborators with the Kuomintang, I E the counter-revolutionaries. So you would still be able to identify targets but those targets may become a bit more general, I E because in the past the landlord as a class had always sided with the Kuomintang then i it gives you the opportunity to go back and attack them, almost the landlords per se in a way you couldn't during the Japanese war because clearly loyal landlords were fighting the Japanese. But, but you need a new set of targets anyway, and somehow you,y y you've gotta and the May the fourth directive, by returning to land reform is beginning to open up those as possibilities. How widespread were the accounts described by ? I mean that's just one village, or one county that he's described but how widespread throughout the north Yes. it's almost a bit No I, I think there is, there is a lot of evidence that this is happening in all of the villages Right. er and in some villages they went a great deal further than they did in, in Right. erm but, but certainly the, the er er the period has given the Communist Party er quite a large number of trained cadres which will be able to go out into the villages in a way that they hadn't been able to in because it would, that was all too soon. But through, through erm the period, particularly after campaigns in nineteen forty one, forty two, you, you, you've got a l a lot of people coming into the Party, then they've all been instilled with the spirit, you can then send them out into the villages. Erm they are going into the villages, they're making contacts with individual peasants erm it's those peasants that, that they get to stand up and make the first accusations, it's those peasants who join the Party erm and the process can build up in, in a way which was more difficult before then. So, so you, you, you have got this basis for mass mobilization together with some of the education Mm. Okay shall we s stop there and have a ? We'll go on to the, the itself. Right. Okay so we, we, we've the May the fourth directive, er we, we, we've now got the May the fourth directive operational. Tt erm and the, the next thing is the outline agrarian law, so let's, let's have a look at this. First of all what what is the outline law saying and secondly why is tho those particular provisions necessary? What's, what's the outline er agrarian law all about and what's, what's ? Well in effect it says that how that it's now the Party is sanctionalizing absolute egalitarianism, the aim that landlords, K M T officers, everyone's going to get equal distribution of land. It also erm pr it's protecting commerce and industry and that ess essentially i it's, absolute egalitarianism means that everybody within the village or the Mm. the , everybody will acquire the same land and the same quality of land. Yes, and that no gonna be given to C C P cadres or to, or to landlords Right. it's just Is, is, is that different to any other land law before, is well is, is this a new idea or is it just picking up on other equalizing quantity and quality, that's, that's an old idea isn't it? Yeah. Mao's policies Right. Is, is, is it any different at all from, from that land law of Mao's in nineteen thirty? In, in effect. Was this erm differences in quality to be made up by more land? Or was it the same amount of land ? Erm i in, in in theory if you, if, if you balance quantity and quality everybody should end up with the same. But with Mao's law it wasn't complete erm egalitarianism because landlords erm rich peasants were to receive less, they were meant to be penalized weren't they? No not within, that's, that's within the nineteen forty one law. Surely in, in the nineteen thirty law Mao's Mao's policy was, was in effect absolute egalitarianism in that everybody within the village,in including, depending how you read those definitions, Mm. but including possibly landlords or at, at the very worst their families would have a share of land. Mm. So i i i in a sense this has gone back to one of Mao's early views, except that, that there is a difference now in that er the land is being redistributed for ownership whereas for Mao earlier it was, it was for your use. Although it's it's slightly unclear to me you know because if you take article two it's land ownership rights of all landlords are abolished, but then you're distributing land back for their ownership so it's not quite clear what's happening with that. the way to do it Yeah. Yeah. Maybe it's their past rights over Yes. Right so even, even landlords, within this absolute egalitarianism policy, are now to get land. So ev ev everybody in the village will end up with the same amount. few exceptions. criminals. Right. Yes, fair enough, yeah. Okay. So It's, they have it for ownership instead of state owned Yeah. because of their erm desire to increase production. The Right. Communist Party thought that how that by giving peasants their own land it would give them the incentive to increase production which Yes. they needed to Right. And as, as you said, the one exception to all of this is industrial and commercial property. Mm. So anything that a landlord or a rich peasant had owned in terms of industry or commerce would be left alone and i it would still be his. So you, you were in a sense equalizing land ownership but you were not equalizing incomes. You were not equalizing assets. In, in many ways there's, well there's as well is that repeat a lot of the things that are said Yes. word for word but just sort of changing the vocabulary isn't it? Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Right. because landlords were seen as progressive and they might want, they di the erm communists didn't want to get rid of them as a class but in their feudal capacity. Right. So this is very much part of the mass line. Th th th this is, it is a mass line at work,th th th there's very little in here in terms of class antagonisms. Erm i i it's more about landlords sort of being reintegrated into a new mass society. Isn't it, well I mean, isn't it more about just keeping production up? Mm. I mean that's what I thought this movement towards egalitarianism isn't, doesn't actually reflect any change in ideology at all. Right. Yeah. Okay so wh why then do we go from the May the fourth erm directive into this specific idea of, of egalitarianism? What, what, why I mean Well i i i in a sense it is a, it is a shift to the left because under the May the fourth directive erm rich peasants in particular would've been left out of it altogether and there would still be some landlords who were, who would maintain their property but, but now he's shifted to the left and this, this does represent a further attack on landlords cos, cos everybody comes down to the same level. Well I think you can look at it on two levels and one, one reason is to change the Party structure shake them up a bit, cos there's, there's evidence that they were erm you know moving to the right and allying with er rich peasants and landlords, and the other, on the level is actually having a policy which would get mass support and this obviously would require incentives in the form of land to peasants. Right. So that, is the basic drive behind this to provide a greater incentive for the, the majority of peasants to support, actively support the Party? Mm. Why, why is that needed though? Wh why is Cos the military situation that it er well from er says you know they realized, apparently, that it was gonna take at least seven years to win over the nationalists so they Right. might need more support. And this Right. was one way of getting it. Right. So th th th there's, there's a heightened need for support because of the the nature of the civil war now, and, and they are under quite substantial pressure and therefore you need to mobilize the population behind you and to get that mobilization you, you've got to offer more struggle fruits to the peasants and absolute egalitarianism is the way to offer them the maximum. But their two aims conflicted because on the one hand they're trying to protect production and to allow erm er capit private enterprise and capitalism to develop but on the other hand they're erm trying to redistribute all the land er because the May the fourth directive wasn't going far enough, they, they needed to be more severe upon landlords Yes. and erm and so it appears, if you just take this document at this time, that how that they're placing less emphasis upon production, I mean if their aim is to, if their primary aim is to mobilize mass support that how that production was going to decrease because it was gonna infringe upon rich and middle peasants. Right. Right. So but w w w why is that you need absolute egalitarianism? Why, why have you got to go for equality? Cos that's one of the communist . Perhaps I mean it's, we don't know in nineteen, October nineteen forty seven whether the Communist Party actually really did think that absolute egalitarianism might be able to work. So so It was only the events afterwards that proved that it didn't work, but they weren't clear at this time So it's ideology which is driving it. So that, that, that we are now back into socialism, we, we're sort of now back into our communist ideals. Well that's a possibility. Right. It certainly wouldn't be against the ideological er ideas of the Party but I mean that it was an ideological , it was more practical cos it was, it was related the purification campaign of the Party, cos we know they're having these campaigns Right. Yes. the May the fourth directive, after Right. and they found a lot of, you know, serious crimes going on in the Party and stuff Yes. like that. Right. It could be both, it could be pragmatic but also erm furthering the communist cause. Well why did they just, why was it rejected Right two months later then? Because it was shown to not work. Yeah exactly. Well in other words the pragmatic consideration's far more important than the ideological one is. Yes. But we're looking at it with hindsight, we can't just say that because of this this that and the other erm that pragmatism did overrule at this particular point in time. Oh I dunno, I dunno. I think Mao was quite keyed up on the whole situation, I think he realized that to win the war they had to erm adjust the mass support very carefully, and I think that's basically what this I think that's why two months later they er they er gave up this document cos he was worried then they'd lose the middle peasants' support. Is, is, is, yes, is there another element to this though, that what in, in your new more difficult military situation you need to mobilize the mass of support behind you, which er essentially means mobilizing the poor peasants is it possible that within the May the fourth directive, although the poor could have done much better, they need not necessarily do very much better. I E th there, there is no guarantee within the May the fourth directive that, that the poor do significantly a as a group all do well because th th they, they, they, there's nothing to guarantee that they all share properly in the fruits of struggle. No. No. after they had come forward with this Right. directive. Right. But that's, but the, this actually sets out that everybody will get the same, it doesn't, it has absolutely nothing to do with people coming forward. So it's a guarantee that everybody Yeah. will get the same you haven't had In effect they are, they're appealing to the, the, the poorer peasants hoping to get more mobilization Yes. but I think two months later Mao realizes that this is harming Right. S so the position as of say the summer nineteen forty seven when, when you're, you, this law was being formulated the reports coming back are that although there is the opportunity for the poor to do better, as a, as a matter of course they're not all doing better. Now that's a bit of a surprise to you in the sense that you believed that ten percent of the population owned eighty percent of the land and therefore this, this kind of erm a a attack on, on the rich was happening through the May the fourth directive , that would've produced enough to bring everybody up to a reasonable middle peasant status. And it doesn't seem to be happening. Now if, if you accept the ten percent owning the eighty percent, there must've been enough but the poor are not getting it. So why weren't they getting it? This is one of 's questions isn't it? When he says that erm that sort of, that's what the C C P leadership thought and so they thought that if they weren't getting the land then something must be going wrong with the policy Right. and the thing that was going wrong was this erm was this problem of the operation of the cadres. They Right. were basically erm inflicted upon and this sort of er all the landlords and rich peasants corrupting the whole process. Right. S so it's, it's, it's either that the cadres are being rightist, they are protecting the landlords so they are keeping too much, or the problem is that the cadres, what we looked at earlier, the cadres are getting in themselves and they are taking too much for themselves. Mm. Right. So the, the May the fourth directive is not working because it's not guaranteeing that the poor get enough to bring them up to the middle peasant status which is, is the aim. Mm. So th th th the, the outline agrarian law is simply a means of ensuring that everybody will come up to a middle peasant status. No But surely that's not possible? it must be possible But if, if, if you accept this ten percent and the eighty percent that it Yeah. is possible. Must be possible. Mm. I mean if, if, if you've got, if, if, if you've got that much land there must be enough. Yeah. But argues that how that in actual fact by this time land reform had already taken place and there wasn't enough, any more land to be redistributed. Th th there's going to be some. Yeah well some but not as much as the Communist Party Right. expected so although Right. th there were cases of cadres being rightist and taking too much land for themselves, the Communist Party actually exaggerated this problem and that the main cause was erm the very low lan land ratio. Right. So a a a a as you say that the problem is that erm as this process gets under way and er i i s so, I, I think it's, it's not just absolute egalitarian in that everybody will get the same, I think there was an assumption that there would be enough for everybody becoming up to a middle peasant status. And therefore i i i it wasn't just the poor s saying well I want the same as everybody else, I want as much as a middle peasant. Now wh what were, in your introduction w were you saying that there, there simply wasn't enough land for that to happen? And therefore in the process of trying to bring the poor up to er some of the land of the middle peasant had to be taken and that's a problem isn't it? Oh very much so because I mean all through this er through this period the communists are making, they, they want to unite themselves firmly with the peasants Right. and so that anything which will possibly infringe the middle peasants would be, would be disastrous. Right. So at the point where it becomes clear that absolute egalitarianism is going to encroach on the interests of the middle peasants, you need to stop it? But But it could also be used to their advantage in that how that erm absolute egalitarianism would speed up the process of land reform and eliminate feudalism whereas a moderate policy would just take ages for this to happen, so Yes. Right. it was an expediency at the time. A justifiable one? Mm. So the outline agrarian law policy was the right policy? I, no I, I get the impression that, you know, everyone just everyone just kind of freaked out end of nineteen forty six forty seven and they were just, oh God what are we gonna do now,wh what can we do to get some more support, oh excellent, yeah, let's go for equal distribution, what a great idea and then all of a sudden they think oh no, it's not, you know, perhaps it's not such a good idea after all. I really, I really get the impression that there's, there's , it's incredibly sort of nobody really knows what to do, you know, there's this big turbulent thing just happening and people are very confused about the whole thing because the M May the fourth directive isn't particularly er it didn't give anybody an absolute guideline, guide to erm what to do. In October nineteen forty six Mao says to the cadres look, get land reform sorted out, don't worry about the war, just get land reform sorted out! You know and they probably went well yeah, what do we do? What, what exactly are we meant to do. Can't blame them with the K M T knocking on your though. What? Well you can't really blame them that much with the K M T knocking on the door. Well I dunno, I mean on the one hand in nine in nineteen forty five I think it was, they were saying you know well in order to do, have s s s successful land reform you need three conditions, they said the same thing in nineteen forty eight, they said you need this, this, this and then we have to be militarily secure but then in nineteen forty six they're saying no, don't worry about it, just get the land reform sorted out, just do it. And I, I really get the impression that, for a while, you know there was, there was just this incredible rush and they just thought oh we've got to do something, and, and tha that's what and this idea that you've gotta be right But why was there an incredible rush? I mean What? where was that incredible rush coming from? The war, I reckon. Yes. I reckon it starts with the war. Yeah. No they all of a sudden really need support. They saw that, you know the, this wa wash your face campaign and all of a sudden their cadres were pretty unpopular and they thought goodness me, we're really doing something, we're just doing something wrong and we've got to try and mobilize support, we need a radical policy. Right. Isn't,i i this is back, Simon they have,th that they need sort of a radical policy to mobilize support erm when all the oth all the other radical policy that, that do you it, it's this sort of catch twenty two between erm land reform and mass mobilization. Do you need mass mobilization in order to get land reform or is the only way in which you can achieve land reform to have mes mass mobilization? Well I th I get the impression that there's sort of a, there's an assumption that the communists are making is that, you know you get land reform sort of like give these people a bit of land Yeah. and fight for me. Have you got a better idea? Well no no there is no better way, but er the problem with that is that, you know okay, you might get, you might get some peasants who say well we're really grateful, we'll go off and fight but some of them might just say no look, we've got some land I'm not gonna leave it, But they should put in little sort of qualifications like er er they gave people land and if they went off to fight then it would be guaranteed that the land would be tilled. I think that's very important. Right. Because I think one of the most worrying things that for the soldiers at the front was will their family be looked after and will their land sort of be alright when they get back Yes, yeah. Cos it was quite a respectable position as well wasn't it? And also I think not everyone was accepted in the army, they sent a lot of people back. Yeah. That's right. yes. Because of what? Because they weren't fit enough physically even mentally ill I should imagine will be sent. What, cos they weren't committed enough to it? Er now w w w we've got this position during the course of nineteen forty seven and it's, it's, it's really the first half of forty seven which I think is the crucial one when the launch its offensive erm it's, it's a very big shock for, for the communists,th th they, you know,itself is overrun and Mm. th th they defend that against the Japanese and then in, early in forty seven the come in and take it over so it's an enormous psychological shock erm and they recognize that erm they, they, they do need to er they recognize that the way is through mass support, they think that's what they've gotta get, and they've gotta get it quickly. In a sense they, they were back now in, in the situation that they, they needed support from the peasantry quickly and surely the way to do that was to offer them land, to give them land reform because rent reduction interest ra interest rate reduction is not enough. You've got to go the land reform. And if you go for the land reform, if you promise the peasants the land erm and you're moving towards a position of,y you, you you're still thinking exactly what your policy is but under that might come a a realization that absolute egalitarianism is the best way of doing this, look th th there is enough land for us to be able to do this, this is the simplest process which will guarantee for middle peasant status, it will bring their, their living standards up to acceptable levels. I if we go for land reform we will get mass mobilization. I mean i it's, it's a fair enough strategy isn't it? I think that's what, I think Yes. in the end of the speech about, you know if, if agrarian reform is thorough Right. You know I think that was very much what they had in mind. Yes. mobilize people Yeah. But it's all based upon their assumption that land reform was the erm the solution to the agrarian problem. They saw that how that, they saw the Chinese problem essentially as one of exploitation and that how that as soon as, that they saw it as the land problem Mm. erm now if they, I mean they didn't even consider that how other options which might have increased the living standards because land reform Right. would enable them to get into power Yes. and that was what, I mean if they had erm decided to take more te point of view and to increase production through improved methods of farming and so on, that prob erm I mean we can see that that would've created higher yields and that, because we've assessed the situation now Yes but how long would that take? That would take ages so they're having land reform as a means to an end and that how that it's improving living standards of peasants so that they get mass support, land reform was the only political option they had. Right. Fine. But is, is, I mean w w what we've said so far is that the problem with this is that there isn't enough land and therefore it encroaches on the middle peasant and, and that's the problem, that's the reason you had to change your policy. But was that the only problem? What, what about the poor themselves? You know y y y y you're a poor peasant and the Party's coming in in conditions of civil war and we say right erm we've gotta get land reform and the land reform process is being done, not by the Party coming in and imposing it, it is very much done by the Party encouraging and enabling the peasants to, to take the moves themselves, to stand up and begin the criticism. Ho how can you, going to be, to do that, I mean right you're a poor peasant and I explain to you all the benefits of land reform, what are you gonna say to me? Well it depends, you know, it depends if I expect erm my landlord to come back and chop my head off or something. Right. I mean that's, that's very important, there was a lot of suffering, I think it's about the people who, I can't remember returned to the villages Yes. Yeah. and they meted out some terrible retribution of people who Absolutely, yeah. communist. Yes. So Especially if the K M T Exactly. So if, if you are a poor peasant you are thinking hold on the Party expects me to stand up to this landlord and accuse him of this this and this, actually point a finger at him when there is a chance that, you know, the Kuomintang is, is twenty miles away and they, I know they've come into other villages as they come back, m of land to peasants.s in the form of land There must've been with erm in forty seven was it the encirclement campaign where they allowed the nationalists to sort of drive through the, I don't know the defences, they must've been fairly certain of their support in certain areas by then. Because they actually allowed the, the nationalists to, to sort of drive a an attack through into villages and take over erm and they, they assumed that they would drive too far erm Yes. so they must've been fairly sure of their support to allow them to come into an area of villages. they acknowledged as a mistake later on didn't they? I mean in a sense they were just sacrificing peasants for that strategy. But, but, but once, once the, the stories get around that the communists have not created a strong enough military base to guarantee that land reform will hold Mm. and you know what happens, I mean I,and therefore you er there, there might be a problem within in that you might not get the necessary mass mobilization support from the land reform because of the, of the possible consequences. Well it did up the stakes somewhat didn't it? Yeah. If you were gonna go for it, but then they, they changed it didn't they? When they had their sort of semi liberated areas and stuff. Right, okay so out of this comes a Yeah they realize that a different set of policies but but as of forty seven the strategy is we need to mobilize the masses quickly behind us now, there must be enough land to give the er peasants enough. Th the only reason there might not,i i i if they're not getting enough it is because erm ei either too much land is being held by the landlords because the cadres are , or the cadres taking the land. Now er er out of that comes the view well maybe this is maybe we've got to guarantee security first and then go on, and secondly a realization well maybe there may not be enough land. And therefore more protection for the middle peasants. But, but, but that would ex at least explain why the outline agrarian law takes the form that it did and what was the thinking behind it. But we're saying if you look at, right, these two factors, one is the you've got land reform er on absolute egal dunno what you call it grounds, the other is that you're getting the peasants to do it themselves Yeah. they're just simple really measures of the urgency of the situation. Yes. Yeah. otherwise erm what did, how did they mo mobilize enough er forces then? Because we decided that they didn't have a, a strong enough military base er w w w what erm gave the peasants the incentive to, to join ? Well er er quite a lot of peasants did join because they, presumably they were motivated by land reform, er it's clear that that did happen Mm. and i it wasn't in all areas that the came back, I mean in some areas there was enough security but you wouldn't know which area was going to be secure. Right. But it was er er I mean i it's clear that the policy was, was successful in that they do mobilize a lot of peasants and, and they the nationalist offences so I mean that bit of it worked. It's just that the costs involved in a lot of peasants being killed and you then begin to encroach on middle peasants. So y y you're, you're weighing the gains of, it's a success, it is successful in terms of mobilization, but there are costs involved. Oh. I would have thought it's, it would be harder and harder to, to mobilize the peasants. I mean, weren't they getting quite tired of these land reforms?years. Er mm I don't think so because the, the, we, we are with all of this we are still in north China so this was the first time land reform has come. Erm and therefore the, the, the peasant wasn't yet in a position where, my God this is not another land ran land reform er I mean I, I don't think that had begun to build up but yes I mean that, that is coming to be a problem. I mean er and if you go through it goes on and on and on erm and the changes in policy come to be a problem. Erm one thing before we move on do you think there is a distinction or a difference between the outline agrarian land reform which is essentially 's creation, and the speech that he gives at the end of the conference? Do, do they conflict at all? In that i i in the speech isn't recognizing some of the difficulties, isn't he recognizing the need to protect the middle peasant? And, and, and, and, and, and are, are there points in, in the speech where he specifically says you, you must protect the interests of the middle peasant Mm The speech was written before the er which speech are we talking about? The speech concluding the national land conference. Yes, but, but the national land conference approved the outline agrarian law erm and then it be it became formal policy in October so it is after, but, but it was the land conference which actually ratified it. Yeah is, what you're saying is that on the one hand he was saying right let's have absolute equality of distribution but at the same time he quite clear that peasants. Right. So i i i Yeah. I mean i i i in a sense I think he was, he's been criticized unfairly for, for this because he he, he copped all the blame for absolute egalitarianism, whereas in fact if, if you look at the details behind it he was aware of the dangers of encroachment on the middle peasant and was warning against that and saying look this shouldn't happen. So if if the cadres had taken the law and 's speech there shouldn't've been the sorts of problems that, that we came up against. I E the, the middle peasant shouldn't have been encroached upon. But then if the middle peasant wasn't encroached upon, the poor wouldn't've got enough. Mm. So that y you, you, you couldn't win either way. Right. So the law was, was implemented, it became fa clear fairly quickly that, in the process of that implementation, it did lead to encroachment on the r middle peasant. At that point you have to call a halt to it. Well what you consider the er middle peasants to be and obviously the erm Right. communists er placed a great deal of importance cos as, as a class they were a great body Yeah. cos as land reform's more and more successful then presumably more people were becoming middle peasants. Right. They made up almost forty percent of the army Right. erm I think there was, there was erm, they definitely made the decision by then to sacred cow and they can't harm the middle peasants Right. Yeah, Mao said we support the peasants' demand for equal distribution of land in order to help the masses of peasants speedily to abolish the system of land ownership, but we do not advocate absolute egalitarianism, whoever advocates absolute egalitarianism is wrong, such thinking is reactionary, backward and retrogressive in nature Yeah. it's a pretty nasty criticism Yeah, the whole, whole basis of then he goes on to explain why And this is in nineteen forty eight is it? Yeah. But at the same time so presumably he would've supported it. Yeah the l that's the laughable thing as well, he tries to criticize it on ideological grounds Mm. Right. which they admitted work cos it was a load of rubbish. Right. Yes. But what about when, I dunno i it in his speech he's being very honest and saying well look we really need the support blah blah and the and then tries to put this er bit in about erm Marxist Leninism that's life and is er well wh what's all that about? I think he's trying to do a number of things here Yeah. and this is the problem an an and as you get into them they all do begin to conflict. But in terms of the change of policy, does this fit with the, the kind of Maoist view of excesses? That is to right a wrong you need to go to excess. No I don't think so, I think there's a difference because the other excesses were on the peasants' part now it's okay whatever the peasants did, you know, it's not terrible it's, it's fine to let the peasants do that, and also erm into the war period the peasants are gonna but mustn't do it, this time it's like okay, now we're the party that's saying let's go as far as we can. Right. It's the party actually saying that we should promote rather than allow. Who's er who's doing the excesses? Who's taking ? Well it's It's the poor isn't it because they Yeah but it's on the instruction it's on the instructions of Not, no not Cos the poor they can do what they want sort of bits, I've got a bit here and it says all landlords may be liquidated immediately you know right. Yes. So so the, the leadership Right. did get it all wrong and Well but e bu bu but that i is inconsistent with what is telling us,th there's nothing in 's speech which, which whi which condones that kind of excessive violence. I mean if, if you take his view it's fairly moderate. You're quite right that a number of er statements are coming out which, which do really give give erm legitimacy to this kind of violence bu bu but basically the violence is still being created or led by the poor in their attempt to, to get more. Now No but that was a result of the er lan land law in itself wasn't it? Yes. Well i it, it, certainly it, it allowed you to do that Yes. but I think one one might still see this in terms of, of Mao's ideas on excesses that, that clearly the situation was not right in the first half of, of nineteen forty seven. The May the fourth directive hadn't gone far enough, you needed to go beyond that. Y y you needed to right that wrong. Now in order to move yourself forward you might need to go to excess, you might need at least to tolerate excesses. Once you've gone too far, and I think this is where the centre is crucial, the centre has got to, to say we have gone, this is the point where we have gone too far and we need to stop. But you then ended up somewhere which was better than where you started off from. And in order to get from A to B you needed to go to excess. Mm. Well yeah but the reason I think you can condemn the excesses is because it's middle peasants to waver Yes. er Bu bu bu but but er but you're not unhappy with those excesses taking place because th they may be necessary in order to move you forward. more and more saying look and let's try and kill a few less people. Ah but, but only when it's realized it, it's gone too far. Yeah but w w too far because it's affecting the middle peasants. Peasants. That becomes your criterion? Yeah. Mm. Yeah he didn't really care he wasn't too bothered but at least that's what he said at one point But if, if you've got that idea of what Mao's idea of excess is you know that you can have excesses then you go f forward and then you come back there Yeah. that in itself is the Party saying we should do this. I mean it's not just letting the excesses go which I think understand it when you first said it, so that idea in itself is a Party idea, it's not just letting the, the peasants do it and say well okay what you're trying to say now is that okay that we have got this strategy, we'll let the excesses go and then we'll stop it, we get to about stage B and stage C and move on and move on. That in itself is a Party isn't it? Er yes, the, the, I think the one bit of it that is not Mao's is that, is that you do unfortunately in a sense sense have these statements from the, the various bureaux and this is a,th this absolute terror is okay. Erm er I mean if you go back to 's view,i it is, it's legitimate for the, for the masses to commit excesses, it's not legitimate for the Party to promote them. Now I think in 's view those Party s those bureaux statements were excessive and, and I think you wouldn't probably have gone along with them, or at least he, he oughtn't to within his own terms of reference. Erm but without that as long as it's the masses who are committing this it's, it's okay because you, you need that in order to create the When it's gone too far, when it's counter-productive in a, not for the individual middl poor peasant because he's doing very well out of it, but in terms of the movement as a whole, you begin to stop it. And who makes that decision? It's Mao's. How much, how much erm by a landlord cos I mean they didn't even attend the conference. Apparently. I, I, I find it difficult to believe he would not have known that. I mean for Christ sake it's a conference lasts three months erm I mean o okay it's, it's a difficult area but I, I just don't believe the communications were that bad that he didn't know what was going on and wasn't in a position to say look this is wrong. I, I think he knew about it, I think he was happy with it because I mean as, as, as we've seen th th one can build up a, quite a convincing rationale for it Mm. erm if, if, if you, if you, if you take this view of excesses you're not unhappy for that to happen in order to move it forward as long as you maintain the control necessary to stop it when it's gone too far, which is exactly what he does. I mean as soon as it's clear that the middle peasants are coming under pressure December nineteen forty seven, he begins to issue statements, we must protect the middle peasant and as, as said the, the, the nineteen thirty three class documents are reissued er which make it very clear that, that middle peasants must be protected. So do you think that erm when this law was erm pushed through in nineteen forty seven that er perhaps Mao you know well I think there's been a bit of excess now, I think we'll do some we just need, we just need a bit of a rush now just to take us through a bit and then we'll stop it in a few months time. Mm. Mm right. It's either that deliberate or a, a sort of er one stage back where well if it leads to excesses it won't actually matter because we may, it might be necessary and we can stop it anyway. Mm. It's like giving the appearance of the Party following the peasants but in fact the Party's got a good idea where they will probably go anyway. Yeah. Erm a very subtle, very behind the scenes But, but if, if you followed Mao's speech it, there shouldn't be much in the way of excess anyway. I it, it's, you've got these other statements now I think the they're the real problem, those are the ones which, which really do lead to not just condone but support and encourage the excesses which are the problem. Cos I mean, I mean I think that, that there is, there are two things, one is the excesses in terms of, of landlords being killed, and the other is, is the encroachment on middle peasants er er er they are different things. There's the t the violence of it and the excesses in terms of, of the effects on the middle peasant. We, we'd better stop there. Can, can we, we'll pick this at this point Quickly that if what you're saying is true that how that erm they wanted to er that they, they didn't care that this could lead to excesses because they could control of the situation, wasn't that a bit damnable because supposing they couldn't? Yeah Morning Mrs . Good morning Doctor. Well now, what can I do for you today? I've been coming for sh three weeks now. And I came to ask the doctor if I could get H R T. And she took my blood pressure and it was too high She chased you. so she didn't give me anything the first time, but she Mhm. The second time. The second time, it was a different doctor again, and she gave me tablets and I can't remember the name. It was I just took the last one on Saturday, and I then threw the Aye. The wee white ones, Aye. Right. Brusc something Aye. So Right. Show us your muscles. Let's see what you're doing to your poor old self. I don't know why I think maybe the, the tablets helped, but erm I was saying I was kind of having second thoughts whether I was wanting to go on the H R T or No. No. No chance. No chance. Not, not with your blood pressure up like that. No er well she didn't say much, but she Well, no chance I can tell you now. Whenever er Just get yourself down. And I thought er and er I had wee tablets that you gave me a while ago,Brusdeximit Mhm. And I was wondering maybe if I'd be better going back on them. Aye, you'd be safer a lot safer on them. And they won't er they won't fight with your blood pressure. Here just let your arm . On second thought, it'd be . Aye. It's, it's amazing how many folk come up to see about it, and they, they decide eventually not to. Doing fine. You're fine but you'll need to stay on your wee tablets I'm afraid. And er I think you can forget the H R T. I will, I felt maybe er when I came up to see, oh I was having all these heavy sweatings. Just was it was really Mhm. Mhm. pain up sore back, so. And Falling to bits. to bits . then I had another I had another wee problem that I'd been, I had been to see, and it was Doctor I had been, and the doctor that I saw the last time er I had three big bruises on my back, and she Mhm. says I don't know what this is. But this was a wee sort of lump that I had down at the bottom of my vagina. Right. I don't know whether you would call it a lump or not, I said to her it was like a wee spot. Mhm. So she, she says well I don't know what that is, she says. So I'll send you to the hospital. So I've to go on Yeah. Friday to see Right. Doctor . Right. Now have you got plenty of the wee tablets or are you finished? No, I finished 'em. Finished all that lot. Right, Agnes. Finished them on Saturday. Mm That's how I was, I was saying had been at the hospital, come back and says no, my No. tablets are finished, I'd better go to the doc No, you'd better. You need to get that, need to keep that down because if you do go to the hospital, and they did decide to take that out, they would ne d they would check your blood pressure and they would chase you. There's no way they would touch it at all. So It's no, I don't really know cos the doctor says she didn't know what it was either. Doctor seen it first, she thought I had pulled a hair and it was kind of septic Septic Aye. and she gave me tablets, Aye, that leaves antibiotics. leaves a wee cyst underneath the skin. Is that what it would Mhm. be then? Yeah, that's probably what it is. It it's no really er giving me any No. Just, no. much trouble or anything , but it was just the fact of it being there. It's there. It's there. And it's always a worry when you don't know what's going on. And the trouble is it can turn septic again, and put the whole thing sky high again. But s what about your Dixevit Are you needing any more of them? I haven't got them. I've no I haven't Nothing? been taking them Oh well. for ages and ages. Keep some in the house in case you do get a bad spell. Because they're s they're safe. Would it no be similar to kept taking Dixevit instead of the other ones Doctor ? No. No? No, they wouldn't affect your Wouldn't do anything wouldn't affect your pressure. No. They wouldn't affect your pressure. They're very they're good and they have very few side effects, this is the beauty Aha. of the Dixevit they keep the flushings down, Aye. and they don't affect your blood pressure. Aye. So, stick with them, if, if you're having a bad time, use them. If you don't leave them be. Leave them be. But keep on your wee white ones every morning, Agnes. One at breakfast time, Aye, er I er oh well I took them, took them regular, because Aha. you gave me only thirty, Yes. and that was enough. That's right. So Well, we'll see you in a couple of months again. Er will I have enough to keep me going,? Er yeah. You'll have enough to keep you going for a couple of months. Could I get some ? There we are now. See how the boy takes Zantac Doctor , is there two strength of Zantac Mhm. And he's Yeah. getting the lesser one do you think? Would it be advisable for him to get the higher one? Er He's with the, with the bigger strength you only take one, they only allow you one a day. Mhm. He doesn't really, I think at the moment he takes one and er he doesn't sort of take them like Mhm. constantly or er when he gets the heartburn Er that's sort of thing that's he takes Aye this is this is the very strong one. Just . Aye, just one of these a day. When he needs them. I was going to put the thing in there, but I thought I would ask first before you know. He's still living with you at ? Aha. Hasn't run away and got married or anything? No, not till the sixteenth of July. And he's not running away he's getting . Same thing. Same thing. peace and quiet, What about your own family? You still got them? Yeah. Oh well. Yeah, they're still Still keeping you still keeping me out of mischief. Still keeping Still keeping me out of mischief. Are they keeping you out of mischief? Ah well . Oh aye. Oh aye. Okay Agnes . okay, Right, thanks very much, Doctor . cheerio now. Cheerio. You need help, but who cares? And who gives a damn about the people who do care? Let's find out. Maybe we should start by defining what a carer is. A carer, I suggest, is someone with responsibility for a child, or an old person, or someone with a handicap, or a chronic illness. There are professional carers as well of course, who are paid to care for other people, but this discussion is probably going to concentrate on the problems of home carers. Now why did I say problems? Isn't caring a rewarding occupation? Well perhaps. And a hundred women will share their views and experiences in a moment. But let me offer you one figure to consider, one third of the population in Scotland is either over sixty five, or under eleven, or is variously disabled how much care will they need? How much care will they get? And who's going to give it? It's a challenge that's been talked about all over world, but who's going to respond and how? Let's talk! Let's start with a vote. Are you, or have you been a carer? Button one for yes, and button two for no. And, there's a hundred here sixty five have been or are thirty five, a third, not, or possibly I should say, not yet. Now, of those sixty five who would like to say something about their experience, whether it's, it's present or past? What are you talking about? Yes? Ten years ago I had four dependent relatives, I took both my parents and parents-in-law into the one house the fathers are now both dead, and I still have both the mothers. Are you working as well? Er, I run a voluntary help line for other carers, and I've got sixteen hundred and fifty carers on file right across Scotland. Did you set up this help line yourself? I did, yes. When? Erm, about five years ago, nineteen eighty six because, there was just nothing! I mean, I knew from my own experience that carers were not getting the help, they were not getting the back-up, so any sort of really good telephone numbers I had laid my hands on got sort of written away in a wee book, and I was lucky enough to come across an association that actually backed up carers and actually were willing to sort of, put their life on the line and say to me, yes, you have got rights and you need support and we are here to give you that support. Do you think things are better now than they were five years ago when you started your help line? Well, for me yes, because erm there are now things like the Independent Living Fund, things like that, if people fit into the right boxes and contact the right people, then they can get some sort of help but I mean, it's still an absolute maze out there for anybody who doesn't have that sort of back up. Okay, there's one experience, we'll come back. Who else? Where, who are the other sixty five? What's, what's your experience? Yep? I was involved in setting up a charity called SNIP which is a Special Needs Information Point for parents and carers of children with special needs to get more information out to them about benefits or help in any way. Would er th er, over here it was described as a, er er it's still a maze out there if you don't know where you're going, would you agree? I would agree er, that it's strange er once you start something, I mean people come up and say well we've got a whole information bank here and other people have a whole information bank there and yet the ability of people who are caring, for adults or children, to get out, run round forty agencies and come home loaded with leaflets, pushing three children and a parent, you know is is quite difficult! And we found that er situating This is why phone works. in the sick childrens which we do Mhm. is ideal, it's easy, and it has to be much more available to people. So is the support there? Is it the communication system that isn't quite working but the support is adequate if you can simply find it? Yes? I've been a carer for quite a few years now, until recently, when my grandmother died. Now, she had senile dementia, now the hospital helped a lot in the caring, but I didn't have time, or the energy, ha, frankly Mm. to go running around looking for help. I have looked after my husband for seven years, he had a brain tumour operation nearly eight years ago, and he's in a wheelchair he can't walk, but his, after the first two years of caring for him, he's become bright enough to do the Daily Telegraph crossword, and so he's er erm brain's alright. Well, I did it alone, just with the help of Crossroads, and the district nurse in, in the mornings, five days a week and really that is all the help I had, except that I get domestic staff myself, and any help that I need, I have to pay for. The doctor, my own doctor has been very good and very kind and helpful, but er, I know of no other support group other than Crossroads, who help people like me. And it is a day and night job. And my husband, although I'm only very small and under five foot, my husband is thirteen stone and six foot two inches, so moving him about has been a great problem. Well I'm a carer by choice. A friend came eight years ago for his tea, he's still here! He's multiple in disability, but we get help in Kilmarnock from Salvation Army, who take him during the day, FAB club where I go with him at night, and the hospital,Curtlingside now, who take him for respite social and everything. Now plenty of people are carers by choice, and people want to look after the people who need care in their family, but th i , it's a problem isn't it? I mean, what are,wha what are the pro , inevitable problems that go with being a carer by choice? First of all, you can't work full time, even if you want I do. to. And what? I do work full time, I'm a community worker. But I, I have a need, I had a need, cos, and he fills that need cos I didn't have a parents, and fills my need. He gives back a lot more than we give him. Yes? Down here. I think when you're a carer, caring for a disabled person, in my own case it's child, you're not just erm it's not just a disabled child, you've got a disabled family, because the whole family's disabled because of what holds you back with this one child. I'm a carer through choice, er, I took both my parents to live with me erm, when they no longer could cope on their own and it totally changes your life! Yep. I took my parents when I, my son was two and a half, and I can honestly say that my son, I wasn't able to devote as much time as I would have wanted to give. You've not only you're, you're not only yourself but you've got ki , your child to look, look after, you've also got who you're caring for, you've got their emotional needs as well, and you're emotional needs tend to take a back seat, for want of a better way of putting it. It totally changes. So did anybody else have that experience of of of caring for children and parents, or or parents-in-law at the same time? Yes? Er, I I had to care for my elderly parents when my son was two and a half and I had a six month old baby and er, I would agree with the previous speaker, it certainly does change your life. My memory of those days was being tired all the time, waking up tired, going through the day tired , going to bed tired. I would say the thing that kept me sane during that period was the fact that I had a part time job, and erm we were able to pay for some home help. Now this situation is multiplied thousands of times all over Scotland! Plenty of people are in this situation. Of course, we're all women here tonight,th , there are men carers as well , but would it be fair to say that the bulk of care responsibility falls on women or or is that is that unfair? Yes? Yes, I would think that would be true, because I think the woman is more intelligent and more capable of coping with er you know, the problem. And I think what's getting to me tonight, they're all saying it's a problem, and it's tired, I mean, so is life! Mm. It's part of life! You know, I catered for my father who was disabled and I mean it was nay till I was much older, oh he is disabled! He was my father. He was you know, nothing wrong with him, till somebody said oh it's got a disability! Oh, and you start thinking what is disability? You've still got to get on with life! And I had five sons, a disabled father, according to the media, and er, I got on with it. It is part of life but er wha sa so is death and so is schooling, and so is education, and and all these issues are social, social issues, they are only problems when there aren't the resources to help support people who need support. Now the community care legislation says that carers now have a right to ask for their needs to be assessed, I think that's very important! Many carers, I have heard say, time and time again, that they feel guilty even asking they didn't even know they had a right to ask, well this legislation now allows people to ask, doesn't mean to say their needs are gonna be met, but at least it gives them a right to ask. It says that they have a right to have their own needs assessed, the wishes of the family and other carers erm, have to be taken into account carers have to be involved in drawing up local plans Mhm. for services, information has to be made available so that you know what sort of services are, are available, erm on which to base a judgement about what so , what sort of erm, services you would like. Do you think it's working? The legislation, I mean do you think th th th this sounds like an improvement? Er, do you, do you think it is? Well it sounds like an improvement, but without the financial commitment and the political will then I'm afraid that the erm, the ideaology and the principles will all for nought. At the moment, the evidence is that the sort of money that's being put into developing new services is very tiny, five million pounds towards the specific mental illness grant, which actually isn't new money but top slice from local authority money and then, erm directed Mm. particularly for mental illness and dementia services. Wo wo , it's less than the price of a cup of tea. Can I just say that my father who is eighty four, is caring for my mother er for the past eleven years, and we keep sort of saying well is it not time that she should maybe go into hospital? That's, we as the family. Mm. But dad's attitude is your mother's looked after me all these years, it's my turn! Which I think's lovely! Lilian? Well I work for the organization Crossroads, and I think what I find in in my contacts with carers is that they need help in the way, and when they need it however, our organization is restricted by lack of funding Mhm. because obviously, we can only help them when we have space. Now, Crossroads helps carers, it gives, it gives Yes. respite, or relief to carers, is that right? Crossroads exists to relieve carers on a very short term basis. Yeah. It can be weekly, fortnightly, monthly, or just occasionally on request but quite often we are finding that a person who's assessed as needing help weekly, but all that we have got is fortnightly, and all of the time there are clients waiting for us to up the amount of help that we're giving to them and, very much, it needs to be when it benefits them, and when it fits in with their lives. Mm. The lady, who founded the carers' help line, er, in the literature that you provided for the programme was suggesting that the government should recognise that there are six million unpaid carers. I believe that the government do recognise that there are six million unpaid carers, er I believe that the government depend very heavily upon these six million people, and I do not believe that the government intend to reward them. Mhm. Erm,th , I think it's the government's ideal to promote the role of the extended family which, to me, is anathema in the nineteen nineties. If we look at the look at the role that women play in our society today they have a very heavy burden already placed Mhm. upon them. They're very often, er a worker they're a wife, and they're a mother and all that that contains er, the basics, the shopping, the cleaning, the cooking the decorating, they cut the lawn, they wash the cars, they pay the household accounts. If we go back socially to the days of the extended family, women did not have to play that role in those days, a women, a woman's place was very much in the home, looking after the home and not much else. And, quite frankly, I think that that women these days have very little time in which to indulge themselves in their own hobbies and interests, and I think women should stand up and say to the government, no you will not inflict this responsibility upon us! There. Certainly, I'd I'd very much like to agree with what that lady said. I I work for NUPE, and three Mhm. out of four of our members er, are women, and many of them are both the paid carers, the home helps, the care assistants and so on, but also then go home to look after the young or the er elderly relatives or or disabled, and so on and and as well as seeing, wanting to see far more support in the community Mm. for people who are caring for their, their family we've, we've also said, that employers should recognise that people should be able to get, erm some kind of leave occasionally from their work er, perhaps ten days a year when they find the person they're looking after is is sick. All too often women say to me, basically they've had to fake a sick line themselves because their mother or their father Mm. was ill, but there was no official way they could contact their employer and say, I need the day off because I need to sort something There. out. We've not only got to say to the government, that you're not coping you've got to say, if you're a mother, a worker and a wife, you've got to say to your husband, look, I'm not coping. You can't e expect a body to cope with everything in your life. You say to your husband, help me! And they should relieve you of it. I do , well do husbands help? I mean, I was interested, a couple of the people who who were speaking earlier, Margaret, and in fact,th the two Margarets who both said I look after, neither of you said we look after. Now, I don't know whether that's because i in your house there isn't a husband or a partner, or whether it didn't occur to you to say we, whether you always think of it as I or whether he's out winning bread or you know,wha whatever it is, but Well are are, do men, do men take the loa ,a apart from this fabulous Yes. er father of yours who's, who's, who's looking after er Erm you mother. I couldn't have done it without the help my husband gave Yeah. me. I mean, my husband has even at one point had to come into the bathroom, when I got my mother stuck in the bath er, couldn't get her out, it was, it was him or the fire brigade,tha that was the choice, basically! Erm, I'm not saying he was truly happy about having I think he was quite embarrassed for my mother. But, no, my husband has helped an awful lot, I couldn't have done it without him. Then what's your up there? Yes? I nursed my mother who was blind and bed ridden for four years before her death. Now, my husband was a wonderful support to me, during that time! And I was sort of juggling, I didn't realize how much I was doing until one day shortly after mother's death, a lady stopped me and she said has something happened to your mother? And I said, yes, she died. She said, I thought so, it's the first time I've seen you walking instead of running! Mm mm. Mm! And that, I I was, my hus , during the time mother was ill, my husband took ill, now this is where authorities don't give you any back up, instead of sending him to hospital which was fifteen minutes by bus, I could have visited him every day they sent him to the other side of the county which only allowed a visit once a week, and meant I had to leave at twelve o'clock and get home at six! Mhm. Now no nothing was done! The worse word you can say to authority is, I can cope, because they leave you to cope! Down here. My husband he was very good, but he didn't take any care with my grandmother, but he was extremely good about the house. He looked after Michael, my young son, he did housework, he even makes now, a good pot of soup,he done , better than I do! But, he took over most of the housework, whereas I was looking after my grandmother. I mean, without him in the back I wouldn't have been able to do it, but I always tell everybody I was the carer. Yes? Up there. We're still talking about men helping us, instead of expecting them to do it automatically. Are we? I think we are at the moment, yes. Is that, is that your experience? Yes, I mean I have a very helpful husband, but he's helping, he sees him himself as helping me rather than doing his share of it without having to ask what help I need. Now, that's an interesting distinction! Do you think that's right? Mhm. Aha. Mhm. Yeah. At the same time, men usually have got full time jobs, as well! Well I meant I mean, if they're working full time and they are helping with the children in the house, I mean, they can't do much more! Well I'm working full time too I think they can! so I work as well! Mhm. I think erm, I don't men take a lot of responsibility. I mean, I don't want to er, betray my partner here but erm, I mean he does his share but he doesn't do his full share. Erm I think that erm men don't like to take on women's work because it's erm Ooh! Ooh ! the hours are too long, the hours are too long and the wages are really bad,th really bad So that's , that's er, the women's work is is work that is, the hours are too long, and the wages are really bad? Yes! That's your definition? Well I mean who'd want to take that on, you know! I mean it's unpaid. Well okay it's and invisible. it's badly paid, yeah alright, it's invisible Yeah. for . They don't take it on, take it on full time. Up there. Mm. It actually takes the two of you to pull. I've been listening, Sheena, to them talking about carers, now, since time began women have always been carers. I mean, when you get up and, I believe that it's, a children's duty to look after their parents. I looked after my mother I was the youngest of our family, and I didn't consider that I was doing something unusual, it was my duty. Mhm. And that is why,th with the government talking about, and they're talking about authority why should they be looking for money from anywhere, when after all, the youth of today are the pensioners to , of tomorrow, and it's only our duty to look after them. Mhm. I would have to say that social conditions have changed a great deal today, going back to what the first Mhm. on my left said earlier, and wo wo women have a tendency to say yes to everything that they can do, just because they can do it, and they know they can but they tend to heap up far too many obligations, and that causes many carers Mm. er, to succumb to health problems, exhaustion, er emotional problems and so on. Hazel? My er, circumstances are entirely different, I am the person who's being cared for and my husband died in nineteen eighty seven, and my son in nineteen eighty eight and I was left with my young son, and he looked after me on his own, and then my daughter who li , I was living in Ireland, my daughter lived in England, and she decided it wasn't good enough that it should all be left to him, so we had a long talk and we discussed it at length for two weeks at Christmas, and then they all moved Sou , over here, we got a house in Scotland, and I'm looked after by my young son and my daughter, and since then a year ago my daughter got married, her husband moved in and he looks after me as well , so I'm looked after by three young adults. I wonder how many of you are now, or expect to need care? Button one for yes, and button two for no? It may take a bit of imagination for, for some of the, some of you but what do you think? Do you think you're going to need care? And it's something you might think about as well, sitting at home, do you think you're going to need care in due course, and if so, where's it going to come from? And er, where's the money gonna come from? And who's going to look after your carers? Fifty four of the people here think they're going to need care, forty six are going to stride it out independently to the end. Erm very briefly, the fifty four of you, who's gonna care for you do you think? I've got a young son Yep? he's erm twenty three at the moment, I've got arthritis, sometimes I'm in a wheelchair, sometimes I'm alright, and he says don't worry mum I'm there to push you around and I'm quite heavy! Yes? I I on picking up on one thing that was said Mhm. earlier that, the hardship, I mean i it's okay for some people who have the money and will not feel Mm. the hardship. I know, er a gentlemen, like yourself, who's looked after by his young son, by a younger son anyway, and he he's given up his work to look after his father. Well, in fact, eighty percent of full time carers give up work to But look after whoever it is they're looking after. we we , we were hearing from Jenny about the government, but we we must look into other parties I mean there's a general election going to be coming off soon, we, we as carers should be looking into who is going to benefit us. But it's not just we as carers, or your as carers No! it's anybody who cares sufficiently about It's anybody who needs help. Yes? I'm an ex-carer, and I looked after my aunt for three and a half years, and could I say that it's not all negative although it times you could scream! Really! I mean, at times yo , I can, looking back now I can say that I learnt a lot. Well I sa , I mean I took her on to look after her and I didn't think there would any problem Mm. about it, but after a while ah, I you know, things got more difficult as she deteriorated, but th I did learn a lot. Mm. And now, I I almost felt empty when she died, and I didn't have anybody to care for that really needed me all the time so I I, wanted to help out at a local dementia centre to try and make up for it and to pass on I think that's what I've learnt. I think that's a very good er point Mm. and I, I mean I, I think we've heard earlier a lot o , people who, people who've who have become carers because they need that, they need to care for somebody, and they want that dimension in their life. What's also come out very strongly er, in this programme is is that it's a struggle for a lot of people, both financially, and in terms of juggling time and the multiple demands that particularly women have, in trying to care for young people and old people to the point where women may spend their entire lives between, between twenty and sixty looking after somebody or other. And maybe that is part of real life, maybe that is a fact of life that women have to take on board, but perhaps men have to take it on board a bit more as well . Can we have a couple of final comments, cos we're gonna have to draw to close. We've heard a tonight about carers erm, not knowing about Mm. benefits, not knowing where to find out about benefits, and I think it's right to say that benefits agency staff are there to give information and there is a And that's what you are? Yeah. There is a freeline service which carers, I think a lady said earlier, over the phone is the best way, there is a freeline service and I think it would be a good idea for carers to take advantage of that, if we can help, we will. I, it's unfair ask you this, but do you think it's sufficient the care that's avail , the the help that's available? Erm that is difficult for me to answer but obviously Right! Fine ! I'm going to implement Yeah ! government policy,not to comment on it ! Right. Yes? I'd like to end on a, on a slightly different note. I would like to look at the people who are being cared for, the people that we're talking about, are the elderly, quite often these people have lived through two world wars and given up their young married life, they have brought up their children through the bleak days of the general strike, is it right that these people have to suffer the indignity of charity hand-outs? The eve of their life should be free from worry, and stress, and anxiety, and wondering about who will bury them, and who will pay for it. I I think it's quite wrong er, the way the elderly are treated, that they Yeah. have to rely on charity hand-outs. As ever, we finish with er a lot of things touched on, lots more to talk about. I hope you've heard something that'll make you think, and think positively and perhaps act positively. Goodnight. This is oral history project tape number two of Mr Jack of . My name is Joyce . The date is the twenty second of April, nineteen eighty seven. This is interview number one. Of horse racing at Newmarket. That's a good game. What else did you learn on the stud farm? Well did you go to stud when you, when you down at Newbury? Where was, what was you doing down there? I was near the Red House Stud. Yeah. Well it's Mm. good game innit? Did you find it interesting? Oh yes. Yeah, I watched the breeding and Where?? Yes. Yes. . It was the finest thing in the world. Mm mm. It the method you used in those days did tha did they change as the years went on or, or No. did your There were same methods. Mm mm. Same methods. And I don't you, where was you? At Bigham's Stud? The Red House. What? The Red House Stud. Oh! Where was that? Newbury. Farther along weren't it? Up the Mm mm. Win up the Winchester Road. On the way into Highclear? But up a bit. No. That's the A thirty four going down to Southampton. Erm you're thinking of the Highclear Stud aren't you? Near Yeah. the Canarvons. No, this one erm was sort of just And going out to where going out towards Wiltshire way. Yes. That's right. And Marlborough. Oh yes. Well Mm. Yeah. Oh yes, it's erm very, very, very, very interesting. So what else did you do? What? What else did you do? That's all, that's all I could do wa mind you, I went when the war finished when the war finished and that don't forget, and Reg , when he packed up first, I went to my stud groom and made your beating. When Vales of Clwyd stood there. I had him up there. And another horse called Dormant up up, up the phantom stud. I had to be stud groom. Then went off from stud groom, from there I went to be head lad with Sammy . Aha. He wanted head men so I went back and was head lad for him. So when you were stud groom Yeah. what were your duties? Duties? Phworgh! Bloody always on weren't you? Mm? Your duties were always on weren't you? When you're stud groom you're always on. You're never off. As soon as the bell goes you're in trouble int you? I must say yo yo you never, unless you've got a good second man er especially foaling time yo my son-in-law don't leave the place. Not foaling time. Never leaves the place. Er he wo he don't, he er, he all responsibility on his shoulders Mm. you see. Yeah. Well they get thirty pound for sitting up you know, now. Thirty pound Do they? at Newmarket! What, a night? To sit up at nights, yeah. Yeah. What did you get in your day? Half a crown. That's what we got. What's that, for each night Well or for the week? for the whole week you know. That's all I had, that's all I had to pay my men. Half a crown. That's what we got. And did they have rota for sitting up? And you, and we was, watching you'd come out and look. Used to have all kinds, you know o on the team. Mm. I used to like the moonlight nights myself. Because it was you could always learn something on a moonlight night. We wasn't allowed on the road. There was a gate made for every paddock. All, all where them boxes are built on Hamilton Road now, that was all our place that was. We give the lease up. That was all Perry 's. Glenburgh, Biado don't forget. Ellepo. Animals I could na name. Good horses they bred down on that road you know. Yeah. This is what road did you say? Bred, bred down Hamilton Road. Hamilton Road. Perry 's. That's where I was. I learnt something while that war was on. I learnt, a, a, a, a, a good stud groom, a man that knew his job, I learnt mine from. Yeah. Brurgh, urgh! Money for old rope. Well you, you learnt about the technique with the mares when you were trying to wean them didn't you? Ah? You learnt about the weaning techniques. The what? Weaning. Weaners. Ah! Weaning. The weaning as a the game would be , weaning, you know. Some people leave it late, you know. They even get big foals you know. Er er, well I tell you interest of a stud is to, to know one another and to wanna know your stud grooms where you send your mares. See, I used to, I never took a mare away wi with me in foal, to foal down at fo away, you know, to be coming away without I had a to a foal's head collar. Well, that head collar represented that stud groom. When that foal was born we did put he head collar on it, you see. Well, er, stud groom we used to pay them, pay one another you see. If you didn't do that they wouldn't do it for you, they wouldn't pull them for you, wouldn't do anything. Wouldn't pull them? Pull them, no. What d'ya mean, pull them? Well,th the first time you lead a foal, get up, put a head collar on and foal them. Put the rook on it. They rear and, fight Yeah. at you, you know. Er, er, we used to do it out in the muck yard. Get them in the muck yard and th you see, when they used to do that they used to fall over, you know, they couldn't hurt theirselves. See they used to hurt their neck. Put it through a ring, you know. Had And them and pull. let them pull a cow collar,wi it was what they call cow collar learn, the way to learn them. And then lead them with this to come with. Most studs, you had to lead your foal and lead your mare. See? That's how you're taught. So you got a, er, your mare in one hand and your foal in the other, int ya? Lady James , you had to come over a water bridge at er, her stud. Mare and foal over a water bridge. Out of one paddock into another. Did that create problems? Yeah. Yeah well they, they was used to it. Lady Road Mentmore, just the same. Look at the, look at the miles you had to walk at ! Mentwater? Mentmore Stud. Lord 's. It's all sold now innit? Mentmore. M E N M E N T M O R E . Mentmore. Yeah. There's not a stud there, they've built on it. Haven't they? Lord 's. Lord ro Lady 's just died and sold her place here. Did you read it? Left hundred and twenty thousand to the to the sh her butler and his wife. What do you think of that? Hundred and twenty thousand, and the house. And left it to the butler? Mm. He'd been with him years. I can remember Yeah. re I can go back years when I went there. Years. Mhm. What did you do there? Well when I was taking mares down into Yeah. they had the stallions down there then you see, they had stallions at the stud. Which we were there often. And where did the studs stand? Mentmore, near Linslade. On the way out to Tring. Mm. On the way out to Tring. Mm. It's la you go, we used to go Baldock Hook er er Shelford Shelford to erm mm. Luton Road, off, just forget the name of some places. Well you're heading up the A one aren't you? I got so used, we used to go the same way all the time. So you were travelling with the stallions Oh yeah. or the mares? No, the mares. With the mares. The mares Oh so travel with the mares, see. I travelled all so all this, Jim that's alive now I done that for two years. Travelled all his mares. Yeah. I took six to Ireland one year. And was it six I took, or four? Four. Four was it? And er, I never had to leave them. And the valuation was two hundred and fifty thousand. The valuation of them. And you had to stay with them all the while? Sheldrake Burrows that was Stud. .Whe when you went and you didn't have to leave them, you know. You was insured not to leave yo wha you I was in charge of them horses, you mustn't leave them. So, could you, could you They was in box so I've had to go and get my tea and my grub. Cos of the insurance people used to creep about, see if you was in the box. And if you wasn't in your box and anything happened you wouldn't get nothing. So what happened if you wanted to pop to the loo? What? What happened if you wanted to pop to the loo? Oh! You have to do it inside the box. Get inside the box and do it. You had to stay with them Yeah. literally Yes, you twenty four hours a day? Cor! Ooh ooh! Daren't leave. No, once you take over a job you take over a job. Ah yeah! Do they still do that today? What? Well er, er some places are very strict. These Arab places I should think they do. Very strict. Especially mares and what they've got er, er today. The valuation of the mares and sanxters Threapingham Stud, I should think so. They were strict enough when I was in, when I flying, never mind about anything else. Talking about flying the horses was there special preparation for flying them? No, you just had your stalls. Used to, we used to put five foals in a a er, take them like two stalls, you take the middle stall out and the top box you used to get five foals in. See the, we used to work with the five. The closer they are the better they were you see, they couldn't kick, they couldn't roll about. Got me? Yes. And er that's how we used to fix everything in like that you see. I've been the top, middle, down bu bunk down. I was at the top end one, and all the draught come through the door, paralysed me. And then at the back end you get the , you know. What? Er the in the aeroplane, you wanna be in the middle, if you can get in the middle you're Yeah. alright. Yeah. You come, you go to Ireland and you, you might come in, on a lovely sunny day like this and you get half way over and you've go yo you think Jesus Christ has got hold of you! Yo you've got go get in them air pockets. Yeah, good job you've got hay ni you've got hay net on at each horse, you know. I used to sit the, sit against the wall and hold onto my hay net. Cos you never know when you're gonna drop into these pockets, you know. Don't half give you a ti Yes. you know, you think it was gone. Mm. What did the horses do when you hit an air pocket? They just chu you know they, some of them kick about and some Mhm. goes up rough. And wa and one or two bad journeys with them when they've got out and everything got over the top, top What in the aeroplane? Oh in aeroplane. Oh yes. What d'ya do then? Well, get hold of them. Give them the needle quick. Needle? Give them needle and put them back in the stalls again. What, an injection of so Injection. Wha what do you inject them with then? Well it keeps, just keeps them quiet dunnit? What Ju sedative? Sends them dozy and open the door and put them back in again. Well they get over the top, we had them over the top, hanging over the top. They hurt themselves? Well er, course they hurt theirselves but they're, that's their, that's their look out. As long as we can get them inside, we don't want them outside do we? Mhm. Oh yes. Well terrible, we've had some, been some funny things. We've had foals get out and everything. Terrible things we've had. Well you'd be surprised, that's why you have cow collars. You have them big cow collars all ready for them, you know. Hold them down. They want rearing and all that, they want to rear you see but so long as you get them settled and stand on them do anything, keep them down. Oh it's not all easy. You don't think it they're up there, you're flying in comforts. You're not. Not easy. Do you stay with the horses all the while u in the flight? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The young girls fetch the grub along. The girls fetch the grub along. And er to er well, you know I could tell you some tales about them. Er, on th on the, on the big planes you see like when what we used to take twenty eight twenty eight out to Mm mm. Hong Kong and Tokyo and all them places. We used to, twenty eight there used to be two lavatories, madam and gents, you know. And these stewardesses you know, they're only just tall and ordinary you know well they they'd got black tights, got black'uns on you know, all wore black'uns. And they says as soon as you see one coming you sa say can I got make your bloody mind up which one do you want! They're all the same the stewardesses . You ought to see them . Oh dear. This is a good a good . They were good to us them stewardesses. They were tough sport, they loved it. You know come down and touch, they were always wanting to be with your horses. Give you plenty of grub. Look after you. Soup come. Ma myself, of course I was married. Do you know, I, I've come I've come away from Luton, Stansted at times, Cambridge especially when I've come down, perhaps half a dozen dinners. Half a dozen dinners, you see, when I've got in and haven't been, you, haven't been in the oven, haven't eaten phworgh, fetch the home lovely. You can bring them home? Brurgh, yeah. Too true! Bring the home, shove them in the oven. Phworgh, phworgh! Cos all that horsebox drivers used to ask for them. Did they? Yeah, but with us on the plane they had a privilege you see. You would wanna take any grub with you, see. We had a privilege. But the horsebox drivers used to always ask for them. Cos they didn't want it to go bad you see. Mm. Oh yes, it was lovely. It's most interesting I found it. A bit nervous at the start I was, I di hadn't been in aeroplane, you know. Not with horses. Only my son. But I hadn't on with the horses. That's, the going up but once you're up. But once you're up you look see then al you're alright. Easy as wink your eye. I don't mind now. Easy. And then another thing yo you, also, there's tricks in everything. Now, if you had two horses up the front, you see th their heads are facing this way the engines,th starboard er, two engines you see and they all put starboard up first you know. Always send one engine off first you see. Well the shadow of these wheels going round like that, this is what we learnt,al that's what I learnt anyway, shadow going round like that keep marking on the walls and the sun don't they? So they always used to say if you ever get two up the front take your coat off and cover the windows up. So th they don't see nothing then. You learn all that. Mm. Cos the shadows frighten the horses. Yeah. Mm. Mhm. And the, the row of the engines, see Yeah. when you start the and then, the doors you know, the big door they shut up? Mm. The last thing when you're all in, in when you're all in, and down at the bottom they curve under like that you know, curve under. Phworgh! And when it's, and when the blooming wind catches you up there! Ooh!cold. What it blows straight in? And it gets underneath that underneath the door and the water can't come in you know, but the see cos it's like fits with the curve underneath, you see. This is in an aeroplane? Yeah. On the Mm aeroplane, the last door up, you know, that they Mhm. clamp up. Yeah that fits underneath. Do you remember years ago a an aeroplane burning all the mares in London? All Billy 's mares? The plane come down and bursted into flames. Did it? All the mares on. I come off that plane at Gatwick and I was one of the luckiest fellas to be in the called Cohen. We had an come to near, Morris and Co had gone to Ireland. When they arrive in Eddington, go on, go on to, take the plane and go on with the plane to Ireland. Well the plane arrived at Gatwick and he's had to take these mares back from Gatwick cos the plane that was taking them had broken down. So of course, we didn't go on it, we come home to Newmarket. And everybody sa shouting out, plane come down at six o'clock. I don't get home till about half past nine at night. And said, who's on the plane then? Working the names, they had ,wi you know. So well, I always remember it cos my missus was in the White Hart, she was telling me about it. And they come and said, he's coming down street now. And they thought I was on that plane blown up. That's who, I tell you. They couldn't believe their eyes could they? No. When they saw you. No. They couldn't. I was telling you the truth. And the fella that was on it named has, lives up the Goldfinks, he, he's still alive. What, there was another on as well? Funny, on it. No, yeah, yeah. Another on it too. And the boy at erm at erm Mebson, Mebson fella, what was his name? Revs. What was his name that fella? She runs in bus the old woman runs the business now. He was on it and he got blown right out. Everything he'd lost. Terrible thing! Yeah. He survived it did he? The, the Yeah. He was on it. i He's alright. the injury. Bloody too same! Badly injured? Well he's badly injured, yeah. What, and all the mares got burnt? But got, he got, he's, he's got a short leg and rips and everything you know. Where he blew out with i he was at at the end of the plane. Were there any Newmarket horses on there? Yes! All Billy 's mares. Mm mm. Yeah. All new foal too. Beautiful. They were all coming back from France in foal. What they'd been over there to a stallion? Stallions. Yeah. Going to Whitbry Stud. Oh! Terrible do that was. I thought you'd remember that. No, I, I didn't actually. Yeah. I was on that plane. Yeah. I was on that, there was several of us. One or two more besides me alive today that was on it, but we wasn't on it when it bursted up. We, we was lu we didn't go back. I didn't go back anyway. Me and Bill , he's dead we had an ajax come through to and go on to Ireland, to go back to Dublin, yeah, they're going back to with the plane. So they fetched some mares over in the morning. I was very lucky, I tell you. Had some lucky escapes in a way. You work it out for myself. Aha. Have you? Yeah. What other sort of escapes have you had ? Yeah. Always. I dunno why, but when I was in the army I always picked, I never, I, I I always picked my own pit, you know. Picked my own pit. Funny I used to sleep on the side of banks, you could dig out on the banks, sleep, sit on the oh yeah. Where you would think one wouldn't drop, you know. Where you think, but oh yes, I always very conscientious I was. I wouldn't sma well I wouldn't smoke. But these Iri you're not supposed to smoke on the plane but these blooming Irishmen on the plane used to get down on smoke. That's the last thing the skipper'd say big red lights, no smoking. Yeah. And the last thing before you shut them doors, you say, and now no smoking. Anything. Would you have straw in the, in the stalls where the horses were? What? Did the horses have straw in the stalls? No. No. Just stand like, as if you're travelling in an horse box. Really? Well a bit of straw under their feet. Mm. Yeah. Yeah. What about, did you have to take your own feed along for them? Oh you,we well there, you had a, had a big net. All depends your distance you was going. You had little nets and big nets. As long as they was eating they were alright you see. But some, some you had to give the needle to before you set off. Cos they couldn't hear brurgh, baa brurgh, baa baa baa, when they first started up, see. Yeah. And they said, and the plane shaked , course the, that rocks the plane. So you had to have it, they when to sle they were worse when they were coming out of it. Their eyes glare. Just like a rabbit with myxomatosis. Their eyes screw out and ooh ooh. Really? It's terrible! Oh yes, I've had one or two one or two er I thi I can't think of the stallion's name, he had a wall eye this beast did. He got out of the planes coming, we, we was coming over from de Laborgie and you give him the needle and I had to lead him off the lead him off the plane, and going down over the chimneys in Chantilly to landu Laborgie he goes, woo ooh ooh, getting ready you know. Mm. Eyes looking back and I'd got the old bit moving all the time keeping, he said righto get out, you're leading me, they were too pleased to get rid of them. Let them do what they like as long as you're not well they do, they kill you, kill you stone dead er them French vaches Cos, see you go in down here you see, where you've gotta jump up to get out gotta jump up off the floor, you gotta jump up about four feet to get out see, they weren't just like Yeah? up onto the horse you're going on, you go straight in off the road. Vaches Shove them up the back. What did you call them? Vaches they call them in Fre Vaches in France, yes. A, horseboxes,vaches Yeah. Vache In, in the early days,wha when, when you first came to Newmarket did horses move around Move around? in those days like they do in the time you've been talking about? Well, you were talking flying the horses around putting them in horses boxes well in those days they didn't have many vehicles did they? Well they, they we on So they went by train. Went by train? All went by train. Well wha Special tra special trains weren't there? Did they? They,i if there was a race meet er there like they have er, in June. That's what they call er,la that's what they call a Scotch circuit that lasts five weeks, four weeks. Er, Ayr, Lannock, Musselburgh, Dogside Dogside, Lannock about three weeks it lasts dunnit? And you leave here at twenty to eight at night a an and you arrive at, you arrive in Ayr in the morning about half past seven. Travelling all night. Do you stay with the horse all the while? All in horse boxes. Same as at Newcastle. Newcastle, York, all them big places use to be what they all specials. But if you went in the horse box on your single you'd be all day getting there. Cos you were shunted there, and shunted there took off here, and took off there. So they ran, did they run a special train from Newmarket here? Newmarket. Oh yeah! From the station? Yeah. From the Strai station. Yeah. Just specially to take horses? Yes. Hor horses only. Oh yeah. So, how would, how would they work that? Would erm the would the erm racing authorities hire the train off British Rail? We what Or did they have their own trains? Oh no, you, British Rail. You had everything Mm mm. off of British Rail. Mm. Oh yes, they, they, they've, they've, they even leave their own head collars and ropes in. But we never used to use them cos they was too big, you know. Too big. But if horse went on his own you'd have to put it on. See? Yo a you'd have to put th their head collar and rope on it. Even though it was too big ? On the big sa on,sa you know big sta stallions, you know. And how did you get them up the station? Lead them up the station. Lead them? Oh. Lead them up. Oh yes! That was, that's nothing that wasn't. It's like the yearlings from Doncaster, Doncaster Specials. They didn't fetch ten ye they used about fifty, or sixty, or seventy yearlings from Doncaster all in one special. What, and bring them to Newmarket? And come to Newmarket to different trainers. Yes! And one of them best lads of the yard used to go up there and meet the year meet them. Oh yeah. How did you get up the station to meet them? Did you walk up or did somebody take you up? If the yeah there's a fella , there's a fella alive today I wa I was in the car outside the pub called the Carpenter's Arms with him cos er ain't you trouble with your, oh oh Chuck his name was, Chuck , I said don't you worry what you what yo ah! He said, it don't matter a pick. Don't matter who I pick, you know. Pick of the yearlings. He went up there this year, I was up, this is true on God's, I'm in this chair he said, come on I'll I'm going now I'm gonna get my, I had to go I had to go and get Rififi, a filly called Rififi I did. And he went and picked a yearling up and what do you think it was? Sansavino. And that won the Derby. It di nobody wanted to do it, he had a big head it had lopped ears Roman nose, ooh it was ugly beast! Big feet. Nobody wanted to do it. Yet it won the Derby. It won the Derby. Chuck done it. He done it. Won the Derby. What do you think of that? Yeah. Just yeah. Eh, oh Chuck . Yes he's still alive somewhere up, over here. Yeah, I always remember that. And Ipea was just the opposite. Ipea weren't as big as your what you've got. Little tiny old lovely pony. Was he? Lovely horse, yeah. Yes, his statue's down the road there. Just erm Yeah. Down Fordham Road. Yeah. Chamus there, the bigger horse, a bit farther on. Oh they're nice places round here when you er They are all blu Newmarket bred horses? What? Were they all Newmarket bred horses? Yeah! Yeah! Oh yeah. All bred here. Lord 's had Ipea didn't he? Yeah. Chamus there was Solly 's. Oh yes. Th all, all along here, they've all got statues. All the statues of the stud. Oh yeah, they all look alike. But still, ahem, I'm, I'm different to you, horses don't appeal to me. Horses don't appeal to you? Well I've se I've seen so many of them. Jack I've I find that hard to believe ! I, I, I, don't wanna know anything about them. Seven days a week! Did you have holidays? What? In the na nineteen sort of twenties when you were in stables Aha. did you have holidays? Hola no, no, that's what we're all on about today, all us old'uns. Holidays? If you'd had a good horse, you asked for hol holiday with er, alright you'd get it, you wouldn't do your horse, you know, they'd take your horse off you. Take your living away from you. They take your horse Now th off you? Well they would, yes. And give it In them days. to somebody else? And give it to somebody else to do. So if you were looking after your horse say, you don't want no holidays. Cos, you're getting your bob or two in them days, you know, you use to get money for it. I was gonna say, did you get perks for Oh yeah. if the horse did well? Course you did. Yeah. Who d'ya get that off then? Mm. Well you see that's what they had to do. Now today, they get fifty thousand pound! Here are look I'll show you one up there look Oh So Sharp Yeah. you remember that don't ya? Mm. That's up there somewhere. He used to come in here he didn't know er how good it was, he's a a bit of a bit of a lady, you know, kick your eye out, and he come in here, I can see him now si sitting on that chair there er, and I was sat there and I said to him, I said er why don't you start kidding to it and all this madam, you know, give it sweets and this other. He said, only he don't like. He said, he do, wanna bet? He don't like, he don't like. Says you're doing this so's you're responsible. You, do your best. Well he started to buy some bloody peppermints erm them bar peppermints erm then he bought hole in the wall, them there round ones. The Polos. Po yeah. And er, he, he got it so he'd eat out of pocket, and exercise, you know, turn its head round and and in that side, you know. Oh So Sharp would turn, well that's what he got him to do. Well she won all them races. He won the one thousand, as you know, and then she won the Oaks. And then we went, and that Sheik Mohammed tha that owned her, he turned round give him fifty thousand pound. Married man with two kids. Fifty thousand pound. Fifty thousand? He bought the car off my boy i i it was worth five thousand odd, it was worth and he, he used to cart me about, see just you know, Steve did, before he, we got this money he used to go up to what is that? That's the microphone. So he said and er he said er, my son said to him, I'll tell you what I'll do, he said I'll sell it to you for three thousand pound ready. And he went to the bank and he got him three thousand pound ready and he got this beautiful car, he hadn't it eighteen months before he wrapped it round a tree. Ha Ah! No! Well, wicked it was. Beautiful car. Beautiful car. My son done the yes it was worth five thousand odd. My, my son'd tell you if he was here. Because he was a pal of mine he just let him have it and Mm mm. no readies, no on the , you give me readies you can have it for three thousand dead. If you wanted er four thousand odd it'd cost you, and you can pay me interest, you know Yeah. on the, on the lot. But he, he give him three thousand in readies and he went and wrapped it round a blooming tree on top of the Molton Road! Wicked! What sort of what sort of tip would you get in your day if your horse did well? Nothing. Nothing? Nothing. We never used to get nothing, that's what I say. When erm the gentry in them days wouldn't give you nothing. Wouldn't give you nothing. They gave bonus here and there, sometimes two hundred pound for Christmas. You know, when they share round at Christmas. Yeah. Well you come home with hundred pound if you hadn't done no winners or anything you'd come home with hundred pound. You didn't get that in my time. Phworgh! You get nothing. You just got your wages and that's all. Mm. You'd people think it's easy let them have a go at it. Had my time over again and I, I'm still living here to tell the story, they know Mm. I'm telling the truth, Sue and all. Wouldn't give you nothing. That was racing. Going back to your normal routine, in stables Yeah. you said you were responsible for two horses What? you were responsible for two horses. Oh yes. Yes. Responsible for two horses. And what would you do to your horse? Well you just carry on every day. You do same what you done with the first used to carry on, you'd, you have horse give ya, and you look after it. You know exactly what time they're going exercise, you've gotta have it, get it ready to go out exercise. You come in exercise. You'd do it, you'd feed it, go and have your breakfast to while they was having theirs. You'd do your animal, get your next one out. And you always worked by time in stables, you'd get out at say, you went at six o'clock, you got out till seven and were out two hours, that's seven, eight, nine. You'd do we by the time you get in nine o'clock you're supposed to be re half past nine you're supposed to be finished the first one. You see, what I mean? Mm mm. And have your breakfast. Well you'd get out at, er go back to your other one, you get out, you get about just after ten o'clock see? All rush with your grub in your hand. About ten o'clock. From ten o'clock then you come in, you've got the yard to do, chaff to cut straw to get in hay to get in. Bu all, everything to do. You got all th the place has gotta be left tidy as er, if you'd come there in the morning. That's your routine right up to night time and all. There are. What time would you finish? Well, sometimes six o'clock, eight o , I mean, seven o'clock, eight o'clock. At night? Night time, yeah. Oh yeah. When I come out of the, I'd a th thing I never told you which you should have known, when I come out of the war there were, we was only getting twenty seven and tanner a week in the stables. Twenty seven Twenty seven and sixpence. Oh yes. And then it went up to thirty, thirty shillings. And then it went from thirty shillings and thirty two and sixpence. It went from thirty two and sixpence to er thirty seven and sixpence and then it went up to two guineas, two quid a week. That's what we was always getting, for seven days a week. Seven days a week! Yeah. And no holidays. No. Well ju at the that's what people, they, they don't know what it is. See they won't, it, it's ridiculous! Did you have any unions? What? Did you have any unions? Ra D'ya, you know like er normal workers have a union don't they? Oh yeah. Oh no, not in them days. No. We had, we tried a union here years ago, we couldn't get on with it. Choo! Half in and half out. No, it was no good. I don't believe in them myself. Don't believe in, I said er er couldn't do anything. And I couldn't say nowt. You mustn't condemn them, you mustn't do anything, you must just sit quiet and say nothing. Yeah. No, but the people wo la wouldn't realize it. I'll tell you when I was i whe when I was when I was head man for Sammy I was only getting fifteen quid a week and my, and my house. Oh you had a house? Yeah. Fifteen quid! Yeah. They're getting two hundred a week now. Mm mm. Two, head man gets two hundred quid a week now. And part, and part Does he still get a house? and ten percent of the wi er th er the, the bonus of everything in the winnings? Yes! Cos without the head man a trainer can't train horse, and I'm telling you that for nothing! My guvnor told me that. What are the duties of the head man then? What? What are the duties of the head man? Well the head lad was a, er the head lad had to see the head lad's er, job was to be there first in the morning and the last off the place at night. First thing in the morning he'd unlock the doors, lock it up, he'd been there long, hour before the men did. Go round Yeah. but you see he'd have a list of the horse who's gonna work or win races well if them animals didn't eat up he didn't work them. You understand? Yeah. He went back, some horses left a bit in their manger I used to have to put all that down nothing verbal, all on paper. See? And the lads used to come, they used to do, in them days, you know, they wanted to go out in the country to get a bob or two. Cos er, I, I used to say to them I know where they've eat up or not, I do, and we've got them . I'd say, eat up boy. Yes. I never used to say that, I used to keep my mouth shut and say put a cross against his name, see not to be trusted see the, you've gotta do it yourself see. Go round, and that's how you find them out. And that's how you train horses. That's why trainers are are good to everybody. See? Mhm. Like Reg 's good to me. Let me see. But 's lads, you can't train horses, you've gotta tell them, tell him everything exactly. Yeah. That fella up at Cecil's, I should he must be getting a fortune. He got hundred and forty one horses ten percent and ten Yeah. and Erm half the lads doing his work. They don't say nothing. In your day how many horses would you have when you were head lad? You had to do it yourself. But how many horses would you have in your yard? Well, about seventy five I had at 's. Mm mm. Er the most we had at Reg 's when I was up there, is thirty five, forty, forty two. Mm. That's all the yard'd hold. Are, are yards bigger today than they were do you think? down there well he's got hundred and odd ain't he? Look at the boxes he got. Mm. Oh yes. At 's I had seventy five at 's, he had two yards. Oh yeah. Were you responsible for working out the amount of the feed that the Yes. animals had? As to an ounce. Re Reg er er, er say we had er say, twenty ton o twenty ton of oats come in and we soon used them up before the next lot, I'll start on the next lot he, the sample man'd come in, you know, sample in come them oats he'd come up perhaps, when they come in, check the first two or three sacks with me, you see, and then I'd have to get a rubber get a bowl full of oats, bowl full of whole oats put into the rubber, see and get a bowl full of whole and put them through the crusher and crush the main, like, you know, like we used to have, just squeeze them, you know crack them Mm. weigh them both see, weigh them both. Every animal's done by weight. When you've filled his hay nets up you give him ten pound of hay. Ten to twelve pound of hay. Then you knew what he was eating. If it was good hay that was as good as two bowls of corn. Was it? Oh yeah. You get some good hay. You get good bedder hay or good, some mixture, good, good sand , a bit of sand with it is good hay. Yeah. As long as it's good. Earlier on you mentioned a rubber Rubber. can you explain what the rubber is? Well the rubber's a, well, you call it a teatle you call it a teatle it's a rubber. We use them as rubbers. See? We use them as rubber and you hold them in your arms, alright? And you hold them in your arm just see the wa I mix them up in the feed, I mix the feed up with some of it, and then tip it into the rubber you see. And they carry them in the rubbers and put them in the mangers. Why is it called a rubber? Well er, well they were they always was rubbers since they was, it's proba it's a teatle actually. I in fact, half the rubber you, cos yo unless you order them and buy them like we used to buy them in some big packets but erm, you buy them in a shop, you buy them and they've got teatles right across the middle haven't they? Same one. Same sort of thing. Mm. Only on a bigger scale, they had them made on a bigger scale you see. I haven't got one now to show you now. I used to have one. Called rubbers. Yes, a set of tools consists of, that's what you want now. And your set of tools used to consist of, what you, what you give the men it consists of dandy brush, body brush, water brush curry comb, and a picker. And that's a picker for picking horses feet out with. If you don't look after their feet it you, which is very important indeed you, see. See horse's feet's picked out properly before he goes out exercising and when he comes in exercise. See? Now some people don't wash them er, horrible George never washed horses feet out. Understand? Mm mm. And when they picked us out they used to put the rubber on the ground pick the dirt out of their feet and put it into their manger, not throw it away, put it into their manger because horses love to lick mud. Love to lick it. See, if you go out hunting or anything like that and you don't that animal will love to lick that mud off its, off its feet, off its hoof. See? Some animals you cut turfs of little bits of turf out and you put in the, in the corner of the box and they, they lick that and amuse themselves by eating it bit by bit. Another thing we do, you'll, give them rock salt. You can have it in on a block, or, and put it on the floor, a lump and put it on the floor. Buy it from Boots as we did. Mhm. Or otherwise, you buy them in blocks and screw them on the wall. High blocks they're, they're called you know. Lick them, you see, keeps them people, er, farmers use them today, chuck them out in the field Yeah. for the cows to lick, see? Like a brick. They're like a brick, that's it. Haul that and the they run down, when you feed you see, well, you,sa and you exercise, have you, did I give you exercise? No. Well you, we come in the mornings, you start about six o'clock, you see? Start the morning about six o'clock and you muck out dress your horse over make him ready we call it make him ready, and you turn out at say, quarter to seven. When you say dress your horse over you mean groom him? Groom them. That's right. Groom them. You groom them. See, we call it dressing them over you see. Er, you get ready and yo by quarter to seven the head lad see goes and walks round and he says, oh eh okay, come on, get a move on we wanna be out. Well you start getting out so that you leave the place at seven o'clock. The horses are walking round in a ring then. All your horses are out, put your men up they walk round the ring and at seven o'clock you move off to the heath to train your horses. Well, you know, practically, the governor or the head you see, he knows what he's gotta work, but erm, I, I know because the lads don't, but he generally tells them well I wanna work so and so and he gives me a bit of paper with the horses names on wants galloping. And soon as he said righto Jack, take the rugs off, I'd take or the,little lad helps me as well, you know and he takes the rugs off and then I tell them what to do you see. Some are five furlongs, some seven furlongs, some's a mile. Some are long distance horses, you see, you train them all separately. Not all at once. You do the five furlongs first and then your long distance runners see? Your two year olds don't do as much exercise sometimes as the old horses do. Old horses want more time and le than two years olds do. Cos they don't want the time, they don't want two hours dragging about on their legs. But the old animals must have it see like th for fitness. Oh. Don't hurt them. And when you gallop them you put the rugs on and you walk them home quietly i if it's a nice day like this, you give them a pick of grass in the paddock. Ten minutes in the paddock, pick of grass, see. Turn Then them out loose in the paddock? Ye in the paddock, yeah. Just le lea you're leading them home so let them pick a bit of grass and then you go on into the yard and I'll give them the breakfast, they have their breakfast and while they're eating their breakfast you're doing your horse and you get finished and then you go and have yours. And you come back again and you get out again about half past nine, ten o'clock. See? What's, this with the second horse? What we call a second lot. And the second lot er er is er, not much galloping. Sometimes you gallop them se if you don't get them all in first lot, it all depends on the jockeys, if you get the jockeys or not. But, then you don't yo they're not so important the second lot, as what we call, well you call them spares, we call them spare in the stables you see. Today, they got so many horses, like, Cecil got hundred and forty, and 's hundred and forty, well so you got three lots you can't do it. He th they, they're not finished here till one o'clock and after you see. They also, must have the time, must have the exercise. You can't win races standing in the stable, you gotta be fit. Yeah. Er er And you go on from there er, you've, mm mm, we come and exercise, they do their own, they sweep up they sweep up and then carry on with their ordinary routine of every day. They er you take it in turns, two of you go out and cut the chaff see? When you, what they clean the horses with, cut the chaff, cut the green mead up and then all ready. You feed them half past twelve, whatever it is, twelve o'clock, and then they go home and you come back again at half past four. Then you start at half past four I'll go round and give them a bit of tea, all of them, you see, see if they've eat, those that's eat up horses eat up, give them a bit of tea and then the lads start on them and they dress them over till they sa well, well say, we give them till six o'clock wa to do two horses. And then I'll go down and ge for the governor and say, alright governor? All ready. And they have to show their horses all the way, the governor walks all the way round the lot of them. See if they're alright. Feels their legs, feels their bodies, feels their skin pulls the, you know, all, all sorts. All sorts of tricks what they do. What's he looking for when he's feeling the legs? Well, see if there any trouble. Filling any fillings er, anything the matter you see. I have, I go round first, I report all the lame one, and I report all the good ones, you see, but I go round them all before I go down to see him. Mm. As soon as th they're finished I go round them, see? As they finish so I go round their horses and then I've gotta go down and report to him. So and so's, so and so's lame, and so and so's got a big leg so and so caught hiself this morning, had an overreach. An overreach is, you know what an overreach is don't you? Front, catch a bit off the front When the back one catches the That's right. front one. That's, the front one. And I, or the speedy cuts. That's where animals go over the iron legs cut inside of the hocks. You see? You report all of this. And he looks for it when he comes round you see. But he don't worry about it cos he knows th th er, it actually happens you see, all I've gotta do is keep them clean. Mm. It's my job to keep all the wounds clean. And dress them you see. If it's a veterinary job, well I have to send for the vet. Understand? Would you call the vet in often? Er, you wouldn't call them in for the petty things. Not, better things you know yoursel what to do yourself. You will know. Mm mm. But you always leave it to your governor. But if your governor's away never trust nothing ring a vet. Understand? Mm. If your master's away at the race meeting and anything happened to a horse I don't carry my respons I don't do it on my shoulders, I go and get a vet. The vet's responsible for it. See and one way, it gets me out of my trouble. Mm. And the owners are pleased because the vet's seen it. You understand? Yeah. Pleases the owner. The owners have to re know all this you know. The owners ought to know all this and and yo your governor. Well I suppose ringing them up and telling them how they've been going, how they're galloping, how they don't gallop. It's all ra mm mm it's hard, it's not easy. Would you fill out a, a report sheet at the end of the day? Yeah. Oh yeah. Oh yeah! You can report everything. Put everything down. If you go to, your master's away cu say he's gone to race meeting and it takes two day, they're going to be up at, say Ascot, more likely he goes for the week. See? We get all, I, all he comes home, we works the horses in the morning and goes and stays you see overnight and Mhm. everything. I have to do all that. I carry on with the horses, working the horses and then report to him by phone, go in the, in the office and re he's there at the other end, knows what time I'm gonna ring him up. He's there, and I can ring him up and report to him when he er er, how they've gone, how they're feeding, how they're doing and how they're not. Just to please him you see. And he's satisfied. He lets the owners know, whoever asked him. Well my head man's told me that everything's okay and he's eat up well this morning and, and, he's doing well. See? So it's it's very complicated but it's er er, you've got to do it. See, without the head man the trainer couldn't train horses without a head man. Or the travel head lad. See they travel half the morning. It's alright, it was you tapped your microphone. After, did I? Aha. After, after er er I've done with them the travel head lad takes over, he does all the ol the tra the race course, you know. Does all this work. What when they go to a race meeting? When they go to race meetings. He's got all the colo his job is to look after all the colours of all the patrons. What, the See? the racing colours? The racing colours. The silks? And Yes. See they're washed and cleaned and everything, if they get dirty or rain or wet. And erm he goes, say I, say, we've got a runner today, Peony, but erm the lad's gotta go he's gotta go into the weighing room,wa well he's, get his form, fill it in the weight he's got the jockey who rides him, that's gotta be erm, forty five minutes before the race. But they generally put them in early, about half past eleven, you know? Erm, because you've got all of your orders and the, if you've got blinkers, you've gotta declare blinkers. Understand? Mm mm. All tha you've gotta de all that's gotta be done on this paper otherwise you'll find all the, your animal don't run. Well you've gotta declare apprentice, if you have apprentice rider, and you've gotta declare what weight he's carrying, whether he carries five, three, or seven. It's all What weight. five, three, or seven pounds? Weight. No, they claim that. Well they claim that you see. Some apprentices claim seven, some claim five, some claim three. See the more winners you ride the less weight less you could claim. See? Say you, you hadn't rode a winner, well you get full eleven seven pound. Well after you've rode so many winners, they knock two pound off, you carry five. And after you rode them five, so many, twenty, I think it's twenty, and then er er you're knocked down to three. And when you've lost that three you're finished. You see, it's up to you to ma well you use your own head and get on then. And you've gotta struggle for yourself. Mhm. But trainers want good competitors when they're claiming their allowance. And good competitors claiming a seven pound allowance, the trainer'll have him. Cos there's seven pound off horse's back. See what I mean here? How do they work out the allo the, the allowance? Is it governed on the weight of the jockey? What? Er yes. Oh yes. Say horse has got eight seven well you put a sa boy up that claims seven pound he, you, you, he carries eight stone instead of eight seven. Mm. So you want an eight stone jockey. Eight stone for the boy, yeah. Oh yeah. And if he carries a pound overweight you've gotta declare it otherwise you're fined. You gotta,se when you go up on the scales you've gotta er say eight ten to ma he carried two pound overweight so you've gotta put him at the scale and then the end of, the governor relies on the travel head lad to do this, the same as I'm head man at home. Mhm. He's trusted to do everything. Saddle them and do everything. He has an authority you know,yo a written authority in his pocket and if the stewards pull him up he's got the authority to, what he's doing, carrying on. Got me? Mhm. So he's sa he's solely in charge of the horses on race days? Yes. Travel head lad. Mhm. He's solely in charge of everything. Till the old governor comes and some, some trainers saddle them, but some leave it to travel head lad. But very seldom interfere with the travel head lads. All good stable I'm talking about, I'm not talking about ten-a-penny ones, you know? All good, the big ones, Kilmarney's, Cecil's, Finlay's. And this fella's just ran, this Piggot's, all got a head man to do it for them. Tt. Yeah, that's, that's his one job. That's all he does. Look after the colours, tack and travel the horses. Does he take staff with him to help him? Well no, they take them to go with the horses. Th the jockeys? No. Th the, sorry. Beg your The men. pardon. The stable The lads who look Yeah. after the horses normally? Yeah, they go, they go with the horses. They go with the horses. And these long , then man out see, but they call them travel head lads see? Mm. He's head lad over there, and once they leave my yard he's in charge of them. Mhm. See? Going back to training the horses Which? going back to training them Yeah? how many times a week would you gallop the horse? Oh twice. Just twice. Er you fe you, you call a time, we used we used to do it on We Wednesdays and Saturdays. But,th the man like the, they all got different methods, see? Whether they were 's trained ready, when I, men I saw in my time we'd, he galloped them on Wednesdays and Sundays. Cos he had all the jockeys, the jockeys, no racing on a Sunday and he had jockeys to ride them instead of the boys in the stable. Understand? Er yes. Now would they normally get their er a jockey to gallop the horse rather than just the stable boy? Yes. Instead of them. Mm. You see th mm er more more brains and more idea of it you see. Understand? Mm. Otherwise the trainer's satisfied with his own men he do he gallops Wednesdays and Saturdays. Perhaps er, you see, Sundays some er ta er er, every runner goes out on a Sunday. And Sunday's an easy day you see. The not engaged and er, they don't take them out. But runners, they take all runners out and they're out exercise and come in. It's one one ru consistent, same thing all the all the, every day of your life. What about Christmas time? Oh well yo at Christmas time, they don't do it here, but er not today they don't, they give horses physic physically a powder now. I used to er er when I was head man on erm Boxing Day, Christmas Day, the day before Christmas er Christmas Eve. so like they would for two days before Christmas you, you ball a horse give a ball, see? And the second day is purging day. You see, that's, two, that's like, start two days before Christmas see? You give them a ball of what? You give them ball, a physique ball, that's bitter , you know? Get it into your fingers and you What laxative? Er, well yeah, it's a li it's a roll like that. I used to roll them in my hand and get them warm and get them in my finger like that and shoot it down, and watch it go down er What pinch your fingers together and push it in its That's right. Chew them. mouth? You push over the, as long as you got over the . I used to do, get them to have all their heads round and go round and do them. Thirty and forty horses I used to have to ball then. Well, they sa they've works them the next day, and then Christmas Day we call it setting day, they're all done up int they? See, you do them up. We call it setting day that. Do them See? up? You do them up, you don't da you muck them out, dress them over, let them loose they have a easy time like we do. Like the human beings. What, you, you, you turn them into the paddock? Yeah. No. In, in the stables. See? And give them, done them as soon as you like, get done as soon as you like. Mm mm. So they didn't go out for exercise? But Boxing Day, you go out the next day, so, ordinary exercise. You only have one rest. One, Christmas Day that is. Mm mm. Well some lads have Christmas and some having Boxing Day. So you have to split them up between you. You can't please them all. Mm Mm. But half of them don't turn up. But you've gotta put up with it. But that's what, that's tha course today they do cos they're getting paid well today. So,toda what's happens in these days now? They work them all over Christmas? Oh. No! They do just the same. Work all the while. They have weekends off, what they call long weekends off, Friday to Monday. Who looks after the horses at weekends now Well, the other men in the yard. Oh. We have to do them, we have to help one another. Oh yeah, you do yours and I'll do yours, see? You do mine when I'm off. Yes. See? I done yours, now you look Mm. after mine. That's how they have to do it. But they're doing three each now today you know. Three. Oh yeah! Unless another beast don't turn up. But they get their money stopped of course. See, if they don't turn up they won't come in, they'd ra rather let you have a tenner than come into work. See they're getting so much you see. But today, it's one bu everything's, everything works alright today cos they're getting so much money you see. And they do it alright, they take no notice of it. Lads, give another lad a tenner to do his horses, if he wants to take off, he'll say I'll give you a tenner to do mine tonight. And he does his for a tenner. See you can do that now, but years ago if yo well didn't, they wouldn't allow you to do it. Oh no, they wouldn't allow you, if you can't stop and do your horses we don't want to know you. They'll say ah, if you have stable off, we had to give it to them you see. Mm. Well you, you can't, you can't stop them. Going back to the weights Weight? that they carry when they're racing how do they carry the weight? Under the saddle, weight cloth. Weight cloths. They're all weighed out with the saddle, weight cloths. The jockeys, and everything, you know. So it's the And how in the stables we we do exactly with the lads in the stables as the jockeys do in the weighing room. We, weighing machine in the loft or in the, or in the, or in the best saddle room you see, you tell the lad er fetch your saddle in yourself, get on it, I'll weigh you. And he don't know what weight he's carrying, the lad don't. Got me? Mm mm. Th but the governor who, who weighs you out, he knows what weight yo what he's putting all out, cos he's gotta weight the horses out. They use different weights for the horses. He knows what weight all of you got. And then, off you go and make them ready and when you get out onto the heath you just, the horses what's galloping together, you've all been weighed out and then who's riding them and they all take the sheets off and they er straightaway. And they, do they all have to carry the same weight? No, they don't all carry I mean, you don't all carry the same weight in gallops. Say, you wanted find out something and you, you've gotta one, one's gotta give so much weight away to something well gallop me galloping them in extraordinary ways to find out whether he's any good or not. Oh no, it's, there's no it's not easy. And how are the weights carried on the weight cloth? In lead. All the square blocks of lead. Lead about as big as that, all go in slots or . Ah well, if you don't do that, if you can't get it all in that you have leather waistcoats. They give you a leather waistcoat to put on. They know what weight it is. They say, put that waistcoat on. See, that's a stone, see? Say you're eight stone they make you put that waistcoat on, it's nine stone. And you jump on there with your saddle and your everything you see th that's how they find out. All tricks of the trade you see. But they don't let you know what weight you're carrying. Understand? Not in stables. Mm. But the jockeys know. When the jockeys come to ride well they know cos th say what weight are you? Seven ten. Seven ten, seven eleven. You know, just guess within an ounce or two. See? We oh yeah, they don't let the li don't let the men know. Is that I know what weight they all got, and what they all carry. Do you? I know them ma myself, I I've got it all in my book you see, when we Yeah. gallop them. Do they not let the stable lads know so that they don't have an advantage over picking a winner? A well th well, practically, nothing, it's nothing to do with them. See you, you can't ask them i i it's nothing to do with the lads at all. You see? They, they don't ask. If you, if you're telling him not to look at it, they say look the other way it's nothing to do with you. They tell you that you see. They come to weigh you, see? Say, you go in hospital, they weigh you every day you Mm. see. Usually telling you nothing, well they don't say anything to us. Mm mm. But why don't they want the stable lads to know what weights? Well, it always was secret weren't it, in the stables? Just one one secret thing all the time. And they don't want you to know this, and don't want you to know that. Well I know and we're an the lads don't. That's the only thing. So you would use the carrying of weight on the gallops in training to see how fit a horse is? Yeah. Oh I know all, what they've all got. I know, see er er myself, I weigh all the lads myself, I've got all the weight of every man in my yard in my book. Governor comes in and says, what's the weight of so and so Jack? Er, eight seven sir. Well put him on so and so. He knows what he's galloping, he knows within a few pounds what he wants. Put him on so and so, and so and so on that, and change them about. See, you have to know all your men's weight. Mm mm. And ride work, I mean work riders, you know. Mm mm. Work them, I don't say we don't wanna lead them out or or anything like that, do all the work riders. When the string of horses goes out for exercise who takes leads er, leads them out? Because somebody goes up ahead don't they? Rides ahead of them. Well the head lad's, I'm in charge of them all. If it's fifty or sixty going, I'm in charge of them. So you would ride ahead of them? Oh no. I ra you ride at the back. Oh at the back? One of the lads go in front, or you have a travel head lad, you got the spare lads who ride a hack. They may be in front leading for you. Lead Mm. you across the road and stop the traffic and all this. Ah yes! You always got someone on a hack to help you. Oh yeah. him and he goes out, I'm in charge once I get out sa out of the yard. Till the governor comes, and then he's in charge till till he's er worked them all, and then he says Mm. ride home. And we, on going home, he talks all about the work. Saying what they're in er erm erm, so look, and wa watch so and so very carefully Jack I've got him in such and such a race. Just see how he's working, you know? He'll want, want me to keep my eye on them all the time what he, what he's got in mind, what's running, when he thinks they'll win races. Mm mm. D'ya see? Oh yes you it's a, it's a big responsibility. You know, in a way. But you don't get paid you don't get paid for your I didn't anyway, I, I'd, I, I never thought so. Fifteen pound a week when I was at . Live-in house. It was very underpaid. You know, today they get fifty pounds and hundreds, hundred pound a week, the lads get hundred pound a week now. Do they? Yeah! Years ago when you wanted to get to the heath from a stable that was maybe, the Cambridge side of Newmarket Yeah. how would you get to the heath? Walked them. Walk all the way round.. Walk all the way round. Well, round you see. If you're over that side, you've gotta come on the heath and come to what do I call them? Well I've told you come to the waterfalls and walk up inside them railings all the time. That leads you right onto the south fields. Mm. Because at present you've got what you told me were the horse walks which are the tracks out here with Yes. white rails round them did you always have those rails? No! No. We had to put up with the traffic. So you Had to take a chance. We used to go through the high street years before motor cars come out. When I come here there was no motor cars, they used to wa hor horses used to go through the high street. Oh yes. You'll see photographs of that everywhere. Oh yes. Er, that was nothing. So what, one group would go after another all the way down the high street? Yeah. And go behind one another you see? Mm. But just steady the traffic. You know, you had to put up with all that, you had to take your chances in them days. But today, everything's made for you. You go right the way round horse walks. Mhm. When So were these horse walks put in? Oh, they've been here about a few years now. Been a few year they've been, been about, must have been er erm twenty or thirty year now. Mhm. And they're purposely designed just for the horses Oh yeah. aren't they? Trai the trainers paid for them, you know. Did they? Paid for the roads being done up and everything you know. Oh yes, it's council don't do it, er, they have to, the Trainers' Association paid for that. Cost a lot of money! Oh yes, they've paid for th all the workmen coming to do them and everything. Done once a year they are. You know swept and rolled and tarred and with Notts County once again. Yes tonight Notts play their second home match in group A of the Anglo-Italian Cup, Pisa provide the opposition with County looking to repeat their handsome victory over in their first game. does well with the challenge, Notts have picked up their game, for on the left hand side. In now for turns, shoots, beats the defender, shoots,scores . In the last minute, Gary makes it four. Four two the final score that night. Tonight the weather might discourage supporters from attending but for those that do, manager Mick promises a treat. Well the league's the important thing. I ca I can never hide that fact, but certainly if they come tonight they'll see some attractive football. Erm I for one would certainly go anywhere to see the English beat the Italians. That was just a little personal thing w with me. Erm and I think it'll happen again tonight as happened a fortnight ago. Mm. How much are the players looking forward to pitting their talent against er the continentals? Well they were bubbling this morning, I think mainly because of Saturday, when it r we were reall the whole club was lifted through Saturday afternoon because something was shown that erm hasn't been shown for quite a while here. Erm hopefully that'll be carried on tonight, erm and I think it has that little bit of gl glamour with players playing against foreign opposition. Erm the Englishman always likes to stick one on them and I'm certain that'll be the case tonight. Notts V Pisa our main match tonight, kick-off is at seven forty five, across to Colin shortly, we also have two Coca Cola Cup replays with megabucks Blackburn Rovers facing potential embarrassment at third division Shrewsbury. And we've got several competitions tonight. The first one we may as well get going now. , it's a boxing video the prize, tell me who are the three current world heavyweight champions please. the number to call. and living thing, ooh that's about erm seventeen years old that record by the way, November nineteen seventy six it was er in the charts according to the piece of paper in front of me. Welcome along to the show then, going Italian tonight er, don't know if we've got any Italian music planned for you, erm but we'll wait and see shall we? Just a reminder of that competition question , we have er several videos to be won this evening, the first one is er the History of Sport, Primitive Instincts is its subtitle and basically it's all about thumping people and that sort of thing. So there's plenty of boxing on there, including the great Mohammed , George and also Marvin . So if you're a boxing fan this is the sort of video that you would enjoy, now it's a boxing question, name the three world heavyweight champions that currently hold titles. I know that sounds a bit ridiculous but you know what I mean, there are several different er versions of the world heavyweight crown, who are the three world heavyweight champions at the moment? the number to call. Let's go down to Lane, Colin in position, already rehearsing his Italian names. Colin, how's it looking? Welcome er Martin. It's looking extremely wet of course, I heard Mike on the news say there'll be some heavy bursts of rain, we've just had one and er everybody coming into the ground is saturated. But the paying customers are just about outnumbered at the moment by a very big posse of travelling Italian journalists just to my left and all pretty excitable by our normal quiet English standards. And er video camera and lighting among them and er they look as if they've been in place for hours. And er the er one thing that we've understood between each other is that they all shivered pointing the English weather and I knew precisely what they meant. Well this time next week of course, we'll be in Italy getting ready for Notts against Brescia and I remember last year when I went over with Radio Derby to cover Derby County's game against Yes you're a seasoned traveller on these things Martin . Well you know I l don't like to boast about it but er you know Italy one week and A little match, a little match. St Andrews the next. Erm yeah when we went there Molyneux tomorrow? Molyneux tomorrow. Erm where was I? Yes. There we we when we went to Italy last year it was er what I would describe as being fairly warm Mm. cos is southern Italy and it was nice and sunny during the daytime, so much so that we were walking about in just T-shirts er and all the Italians that came to us said,ye well language, what on earth are you doing without your er sweater Mm. and at least two overcoats on? So er Yes. how would you think the weather, I mean we're being a bit flippant but how will the weather affect the Pisan team? Well I don't think they'll like this one little bit will they, I mean the players are out there practising at the moment, they look very smart as well in an all blue tracksuit erm and erm obviously a club colour and they look very smart indeed, er but er the journalists don't like it and I don't think the players will like it very much either. There've been some er conversations between the players out on the pitch and an Italian journalist who clearly doesn't need a microphone in order to be heard. Mhm. I wonder how important it is for those players because the the competition over here has its detractors, what about over there, I can't imagine the Italians being that bothered about doing well in this competition, certainly the gates over there don't suggest that it's that important? Er well no they don't do they? On the other hand of course it's the old old story, it's like some of the other competitions which we endure rather in the early stages, when you think of the Freight Rover and er one or two others as well. But the further they go the more interesting they get and of course er the visitors tonight have already had a good win. They beat Middlesbrough three two er three one rather, three one on their own ground in the first round er of the first leg that is to say of the er four matches in this particular round of the competition. Er so erm they'll know that er the way the results went erm last time around, means that it's the sides that do well away from home which may well go through. And er that puts some obligation on Notts next week and then er in December to do well when they're in Italy erm also an obligation to do well now, but bu get back to the point I'm trying make. Pisa here tonight know that a win here in Nottingham tonight will put them in a very strong position indeed in this group er to go on and go through. Er so it is important to them. That's right, just looking at the er the tables that I've managed to get faxed to me from the Football League today. Pisa are indeed er top of the Italian section of group A, Bolton Wanderers Yes. top of the English section That's because Bolton won five nil if I remember. That's right, Bolton won five nil but what we did get clarified from the Football League today was if two English teams finish their four games on the same number of points, is it goal difference or is it the number of goals scored that is the crucial factor? And rather surprisingly, bearing in mind what happens in the Endsleigh first division, that there it is goals scored that dis differentiates between teams, in this league it will be goal difference that will determine the final positions, followed then by the highest number of goals and then by the highest number of goals scored away from home. So at the moment Notts County, although they scored four goals and Bolton scored five, so in the current English system they'd just be one goal behind Bolton, their goal difference is only plus two, Bolton's is plus five, so that is a significant factor. Er Bolton today at home to Brescia, we'll keep our listeners in touch with that one as well. The only other game today in group A is er in Italy,against Charlton. I doubt very much whether we'll have a score on that because it tends to be that we don't find out what happens in Italy until er the following morning. Let's have a word Colin shall we about er Saturday's display, er get your thoughts together on that and w we'll enjoy the goals from that er great victory against Palace at Lane when er Notts fought their way back from being two down against the team that were second in the table, great fight back. This could be danger. The shot comes in, a brilliant strike, Palace take the lead, it is, bends it away, goes and takes the salute of the Palace fans and not surprising on the quarter of an hour mark, because Palace have done the pressing and gets the goal, bending it away from a despairing dive to his left of , and Palace stamp their superiority a their authority on the early stages . good work, plays the ball for deep cross coming in, brilliant header at the back post, Palace get a second goal and the scorer again is , uncovered at the back post , brilliant buildup down the left, superb finishing, the hero, Palace fans on their feet,Notts fans sit in silence, they trail two nil, with twenty minutes gone a push on , the referee looked across to the linesman on this nearside, Notts attacking the Lane end and the linesman said penalty, twenty one minutes gone here in this game, just a minute after scored. It's going to be 's penalty, comes up, strikes it and scores . We've had three goals with just over twenty minutes gone, has scored for the visitors on the fourteen with a brilliant shot, a brilliant header on twenty, and a minute later the penalty has brought Notts back, looking out of the game, was the player pushed, the referee consulted the linesman, had no hesitation and ends the goal drought for himself, will leave on the bench wins that in midfield, skips away, edge of the area shoots. Saved by Martin , shoots and scores. gets the equalizer for Notts. Five minutes into the second half, the parry was from the boy was looking for his first goal, and it's picking up the pieces for his second of the afternoon. And Notts who were two down in twenty have battled back to two apiece . turns, there, gets the header, Notts go in front, it was brilliantly made by and had the easiest of jobs and what a comeback it is, because Notts trailed by two in twenty minutes and now they lead three two against the side second in the first division table, who've been run ragged in the second half, by a storming Notts comeback, brilliant , header. That was the action on Saturday at Lane. Colin what a great fight back. Yes it was at two down and the every time Palace went forward in the early stages you thought to yourself, here comes another goal because they looked like scoring, they were so dangerous, of course he's a real threat and he got the better of for that first goal, er he was er danger all the time and er it was a little bit from er County's performance in reverse to that of the previous week at Forest, where erm Palace were so good in the first half and er you wouldn't have been surprised if they'd gone in two nil or even three nil ahead, the penalty brought Notts back into the game. And then in the second half it was a completely different story. To my surprise, Palace fading pretty completely er but that's not to take anything away from probably County's er best forty five minutes of the season, though the four one against Derby runs that pretty close. Mm. Now got two goals on Saturday, he doesn't play tonight, he's got another hamstring injury which is er quite a worry. How do think er Notts are gonna cope without him because it seems as though when he is on form, certainly when he's at home, he finds scoring goals quite easy to come by? Did you hear that little round of applause over the top of me? That's because Tony has just emerged from the players' tunnel. He of course was the man of the match on th Saturday, he sat here for the interview clutching the bottle of champagne that the club patrons had awarded to him for his performance. How will Notts cope without you were asking. Well we understand that they're going to Paul up the front and of course is still looking for his first goal of the season. He's desperate to score one and it was rather curious on Saturday that it was his shot, parried by , a player with an England pedigree should better than the Palace goalkeeper did on that occasion. Er parried by , pushed away, pushed in by two two, er and that left er as the architect but not the finisher. Same thing happened of course with , he's desperate for a goal as well, he makes the winner for but hasn't got his name on the score sheet. Those are the two players who definitely from a confidence point of view need to score. And just a word about er the substitutes because er obviously allowed to er name five going into the game, and we hear that David and Rob two of the long term injuries at er Lane will be on the bench. Yes and have both played in er in reserve football of course. I think that er probably from what I hear, is the readier of the two er for a severer test, I think still somewhere short of full match fitness certainly, but er I know that er Mick can scarcely wait to get a hundred per cent, and have him bidding for contention. If he does it'll be interesting to see whether or not he might be the player to come in and take Gary 's place and see whether he can strike up a partnership with . The partnership is not really working, although of course erm what happened on Saturday was that after an awful pasting during the week verbally from Mick their manager, and indeed having both been brought off very controversially at Molyneux last Tuesday evening, both substituted in the closing stages when Notts were losing and both strikers we er were brought off, you couldn't get much more controversial tha that by a manager could you? Erm Mick said afterwards, perhaps I ought to er try a verbal lambasting of them before every game, if that's the sort of response I get, two from , one from , the two Garys on the score sheet. Okay Colin, thanks for the time being. Colin at Lane for us tonight, Notts County against Pisa, and the aforementioned manager Mick is joining us shortly. Twenty two minutes after seven o'clock, here's the Bee Gees and Staying Alive. Saturday Night Fever of course, the Bee Gees and Staying Alive , twenty six minutes after seven o'clock. A B B C Radio Nottingham Sports Special, hearing from Mick the Notts County manager shortly and also getting the news on Notts against Pisa with Colin . Before that though let's just er take in one of tonight's Coca Cola Cup replays, as Shrewsbury have another chance to perform a giant killing act in that competition. They beat Southampton from the premiership in the second round and have now forced a replay in their third round tie against Blackburn Rovers. The replay takes place tonight, Blackburn manager Kenny of course has spent over twenty million pounds building up his side, in comparison Shrewsbury has spent three hundred and fifty thousand pounds. Shrewsbury chairman Reg though isn't jealous. They're on a hiding to nothing bless them and er th I mean Kenny is no different to any other manager in the premier league, er they're all spending a lot of money in the hopes that they can buy their way to success. Erm and I guess they will to a degree. I think the thing that worries me more than anything else about them, that a lot of 'em have aspirations erm greater than their finances. If you actually look at what we've paid for some of the players say over the last two or three years, I guess you're looking at about three hundred and fifty thousand pounds. But let me hasten to add that doesn't mean to say that that's what the team is worth at this moment in time, because we have players there that are worth well in excess of that figure. It's all on the night isn't it you know, it's all about the boys and who wants to win the match most tonight. Ray the Shrewsbury Town chairman. Shrewsbury at home to Blackburn Rovers of the premiership. Shrewsbury by the way are a third division team, they're about eighth or ninth in the table so er a great chance for them tonight to cause a major upset. That game kicking off at seven thirty, so about two and half minutes before that game gets under way and er we'll be bringing you regular reports on that one, plus tonight's other Coca Cola Cup third round replay, Peterborough against Blackpool, that one kicking off at seven forty five, and that's the time of kick-off in our local match at Lane, Notts County against Pisa in group A of the Anglo-Italian Cup. In a moment we'll be hearing from the Notts County manager Mick . Before Mick though let's just remind you of what happened in Notts' first match in group A when they took on at Lane. , man of the match on Saturday, forward to oh and the ball in the area and lashed into the back of the net and claims it . It was all set up by , got the touch and gets the final touch with twenty four minutes gone and Notts deserve it, they've been the better side in the early stages, but that will settle their nerves and give the Italians a little more to think about. Oh it was a nice ball that by ,shoots and scores, Notts get a second just moments after they might have conceded one at the other end,the referee unimpressed by the penalty claims but the crowd are there, with a really fine piece of finishing by Gary , nine minutes to half time and adds to the one that got in twenty four, and it's two nil to Notts County against . to , wide on the left shoots and scores, oh it was lovely interplay between the two of them , twelve minutes into the second half, fine finish by . Well it's a repeat of Saturday isn't it, set it up for then, sets it up for now and it's three nil against . Brilliant play by , gets i clear down the right hand side and a fine header in. It comes in from the number nine, gets the goal but it was brilliantly created for him there by and it's a quick response by right on the fifty minute mark, we've had an hour of the match and it's now three one. Brilliant brilliant play by and a really superb header by to make it three one. And again coming forward in numbers and they look at on the edge of the area and he is duly fouled by and it's a free kick in a dangerous position. At three one it may look comfortable, it may sound comfortable, believe me in d this last quarter of an hour, even twenty minutes it hasn't been. The whole character of the game has been changed by a goal which er suddenly has brought to life in a way which we didn't see at all for the first half. Free kick, driven in and straight in. And it's three two. Fine strike comes in from one of the substitutes, makes it three two, direct from the free kick and suddenly from being three nil up, into the last ten minutes it is three two. does well with the challenge, Notts have picked up their game, wide for on the left hand side, in now for , turns, shoots, beats a defender, shoots scores . In the last minute, Gary makes it four, he was involved in the start of the move, some good play by , fed and lays on another and scores another. It's a second for Gary , it's a fourth for Notts and er the little bit of tension that Notts had created for themselves as they went off the boil and came really into the game with their two goals from first of all and then from from the free kick, but 's goal in the last minute here making it four two and really capping a most entertaining night for Notts. They'd lost their way a little, they've come back a little and they're going to win this Anglo-Italian match. Well Mick it's now stage two of the er Anglo-Italian Cup, it's Pisa tonight, er do you know anything about them as a team? Er they're about halfway in their own league, erm I think they beat by the odd goal the team that we beat four two here. I think they have more pedigree than the other team in that they were in the first division four years ago, erm so I think we can expect a harder game than we had last time. Mm. I understand you've been socializing quite a lot with the Italians over the last twenty four hours or so. Well quite a lot,we we went out with them for a meal last night erm we had an interpreter who who was the only one that could speak English but it was it was well worth the evening, it did a lot for relationships and I think that there should be more of this in football, that off the field people should get to know each other a lot better and we felt at the end of the evening that it had been well worthwhile. Do you see Notts County this season in this competition being almost er ambassadors for English football? Yes I think we do, I think we do. Erm I'd I'd like to know more about Italy, I spoke a lot with their coach last night, we exchanged addresses and telephone numbers afterwards and he assured me that th that we might do something even pre-season next year. So certainly I w I would hope something would come from our evening last night. Mm. And what about er Notts County's name in Italy because obviously it's th it's the first football club in the world and er if legend is correct then Juventus took their kit from Notts County strip being black and white stripe so had they heard of Notts County before? Oh yes certainly. Erm the young ones will remember Nottingham Forest but the ones with any depth I think are well aware that we are the oldest club in the world and that they were very keen to have a look at the ground. Erm having seen the stand that's still up, they realize that that was built in eighteen sixty two but were very impressed with the other three. Mm. On to tonight's game, obviously you got one or two injuries going into it er unfortunate th Gary obviously i has got a recurrence of that hamstring strain because he got er two of your three goals at the weekend. Yes he seems to be getting caught Gary does whether it's the pace of our game or the fact that he isn't fit enough yet, who knows? But er we shall be without him for the next fortnight erm so somebody'll have to come in and score a few goals for us but often you know, you discover things that erm you never knew were there when you have to fill in gaps that have suddenly arisen. Mm. Now er before the game at the weekend, you you made a point of saying, I want Gary and Gary to show to me that they can do the business. One got one goal, the other got two, so have they gone some way towards proving that to you? Yes I w I I would think so I mean it it won't occur in five minutes of course erm and I I would still say that I would like to see them in the six yard box more often. Erm one was a penalty on Saturday,G Gary 's and of course you can't er really lay a lot of credit for getting in the six yard box on penalties, but he took his other goal well, shot and he pick he picked the bits up off the keeper and Gary scored a good headed goal from a a brilliant cross by Tony . So erm I still want to see more of what I was after. Mm. What about tonight then er Gary's out, erm who's gonna come in to play up front instead of him? Well Paul 'll take his place erm Paul f f f always full of energy and running and er th th the only area that Paul may slip up in is is is the goal scoring area where he won't be as lethal as Gary. But certainly he'll be pushing and pushing at the front there and making runs to get in the back all night I'm I'm certain of that. So we w we just might find a striker tonight. Mm. So er how does Paul relish the prospect of of playing up front, cos it's a role that er he hasn't played in while he's been at County isn't it ? Mm. Paul will love any position where there's action. Er he's a real action man, er and a great professional, and he lifts us all on Monday morning when we've had a bad weekend er with his running and his enthusiasm. And I'm sure certain he'll be the same tonight. Mm. What about at the back Mick because Richard missed er the game at the weekend with a groin strain and now I understand that Paul er might be doubtful for tonight? Yes we've erm we've brought in to play left back and pushed into midfield,playing with three mid-fielders, erm and we shall keep the same centre half pairing of and . An unlikely pairing but both did quite well the second half and 's experience and talking w we thought made the back four definitely stronger than in the last few weeks. Mm. It's a pretty filthy day again today Mick, it's er it's raining, it's windy, it's cold, it's the middle of November, it's gonna cost er the supporters a bit to come tonight, er only two and half thousand came to the first game, how anxious are you that County's supporters come out in their numbers this evening? Well the league's the important thing, I c I can never hide that fact, but certainly if they come tonight they'll see some attractive football. Erm I for one would certainly go anywhere to see the English beat the Italians. Th was it's a little personal thing w with me, erm and I think it'll happen again tonight as happened a fortnight ago. Mm. How much are the players looking forward to pitting their talent against er the continentals? Well they were bubbling this morning, I think mainly because of Saturday, when it r we were reall the whole club was lifted through Saturday afternoon because something was shown that erm hasn't been shown for quite a while here. Erm hopefully that'll be carried on tonight, erm and I think it has that little bit of gl glamour with players playing against foreign opposition. Erm the Englishman always likes to stick one on them and I'm certain that'll be the case tonight. Mm. And obviously longer term if you can get er a victory tonight then obviously it sets you up with a reasonably good chance of of going through from this group because two home wins, a couple of away games to go, and i it would set you up nicely. Yes I think a team that can go away and sneak a win will be the team that gets through in the end. Erm obviously most teams will win their home matches,particularly with the travelling that's going off, so if we can sneak a win when we go away and get a win tonight then we must be in with a good chance. Mick it's a busy afternoon for you, I'll let you get on with the phone call, thanks a lot. Cheers Martin. You're listening to Radio Nottingham Sport with Martin . Keep listening. And no I didn't er stay around to find out who was calling him, suffice to say that it was er somebody from the Italian pizzeria from down the road. Er twenty two minutes away from eight, let's quickly down to Lane, get confirmation of Notts County's sixteen players on duty tonight with Colin. That's what it is Martin, confirmation really of what er Mick said to you in that interview, Steve , Tommy two, three but playing at central defence, Dean 'll be the skipper playing in midfield, Michael at the heart of the defence, Phil in midfield, Paul wears seven but will play up front, er Mark at eight in midfield, wears nine, well that's a bit of nonsense isn't i in terms of numbering, cos he's gonna play at left back not at centre forward, Gary is ten, Tony eleven, then on the bench, really good to see David and Rod , Bob 's there as well along with er Paul and that's er possibly a a first chance for the youngster there, and Michael who has been bloodied already but er a little bit of experience in and er the youngsters, and as I say again it's really good to see and in the number and er I'm still practising and I shall give you the Pisa team when you return to the er rather sodden Lane with the spectators all huddled towards the back of the stands to get er extra protection from the er rain that's being swept a on to the stands and er has obliterated the markings on the pitch. Peter the groundsman is out there, bucket of whitewash remarking the pitch. Colin with his brolly at Lane. Back with Colin in a second for his final thoughts on Notts against Pisa in the Anglo-Italian Cup. In the Coca Cola, Blackburn one up at Shrewsbury already. from Blondie, not one of er their better known records. there we go Blondie, Island of Lost Souls, taking us round to eighteen minutes before eight o'clock on a Tuesday night, a Radio Nottingham Sports Special, Notts on the Italia trail tonight. Course this time next week they will be in Italy as we all go off to Brescia in the er north of the country. Brescia tonight playing Bolton at Burnden Park and they lead by one goal to nil. with the goal after three minutes. And that's my Italian name for the time being, let's now hear let's now see how Colin will do with er the Pisa players down at Lane, Colin it's all yours. I'll talk to you first about the Notts County pl the ever improving young fullback at number two as the teams come out. Led by the Italian officials and er followed by er Pisa and Notts County and both getting a very nice round of applause indeed and what a very fine jersey is being worn by the er Pisa goalkeeper. My words, he could qualify for a part in Joseph and the Amazing Technicolour Dreamcoat, it's really something. Steve in goal, er Tommy at two and Phil at three, Dean the skipper is at four, Michael five, Phil six. Paul seven, Mark eight, is at nine, Gary ten, Tony eleven and on the bench David and Rob back from their long term injuries,a Michael , Paul and the goalkeeper Bob . The two teams lining up in the centre circle. For those who like to know these things the Italians are in blue with their black stripe on the jersey and er black shorts, and very smart looking team they are. And they both er wave to the crowds, both sets of players and taken a round of applause as the two captains are out there, and there are plenty of cameras, including video cameras er almost obstructing my view and er I hope that gentleman is er going to take up a rather better position from my point of view because we want to see the er performances of the two teams. Beginning with goal, in goal for er Pisa we've , is at er right back and at left back, wears four, five and six, seven, eight, nine, ten and is at eleven. That is the visitors' starting lineup. There are some changes er from the er last Pisa outing and er is not the regular goalkeeper but er clearly that er that jersey which is luminous at the back, it has a number one on the back and it's luminous as he turns round. The game about to be got under way here, it's the second time of course that we've had the taste of European football in just er inside a few weeks here at Lane, a very poor night for weather, you who've not ventured out well, I think we understand that er because er as we say, it's not a night when you would turn the dog out. But er not that notwithstanding there are er a couple or three thousand spectators here at Lane, we'll get the official figure much later in the evening. Notts in this first half are going to be as they like to be, attacking the Kop end, a Kop end which is utterly deserted because Pisa haven't brought any fans with them but they've brought a very large following of journalists, and as I said in the initial two-way with Martin, there has been a language barrier between them and me, but when they pointed to the weather and all shivered together, I knew precisely what they meant. I don't think they've quite come prepared for it is the answer, have Pisa come prepared for Notts County? Well we shall find out in the course of the next hour and a half. The referee gets the game under way, Pisa kick off, they're gonna be attacking the Lane end. Colin our man at Lane as always, comprehensive coverage of that game throughout the evening, including some second half commentary as well, we'll be sharing that second half commentary certainly as things stand at the moment with the game at er in the Coca Cola Cup third round replay where there could be a shock, third division Shrewsbury against premiership Blackburn, although at the moment the premiership team are doing pretty well, Blackburn already a goal to the good and the goal scorer now confirmed as Mike after six minutes. The other replay tonight is a little bit closer to home at Peterborough to be precise, Peterborough against Blackpool, that game has just kicked off, no goals in that one at the moment. In the Anglo-Italian Cup, group A, the other game being played in this country tonight as I was telling you a short while ago, Bolton nil, Brescia one, the goal scorer after three. There is one other game taking place tonight in group A, that game taking place in Italy, in and that's against Charlton. That game kicking off seven fifteen local time, that's Italian time so eight fifteen over here. Group B tonight, West Brom against Padova and over in Italy,against Southend and Pescara against Portsmouth. And just to remind you what I was saying, if you've just switched on, what I was just confirming with Colin er earlier, is that erm it's slightly different in this competition to what we've been accustomed to in the football league er this and last season, in as far as it's not goals scored that's important when you have the same number of points, it is goal difference. So er for instance if Bolton and Notts County er at the end of their group matches both have seven points and both have scored eight goals but Bolton have conceded two and Notts County have conceded three, then Bolton will go through on goal difference. Goals scored isn't that important. So it's basically if they finish on the level points goal difference shall determine the final positions followed by the highest number of goals scored and then by the highest number of goals scored away from home. This time next week of course, Colin and I will be in Brescia, Andrew will be in this seat and we'll be bringing you full commentary on that game between Notts and Brescia. Okay, let me just remind you of that competition question we're running at the moment er, the first of three video competitions we have this evening. It's a History of Sport video, entitled Primitive Instincts, it's basically about erm physical contact in sport, so it's er boxing, it's judo, it's karate, that sort of thing. And the question relates to boxing. Name the three current world heavyweight champions. There are of three of them at the moment, after the weekend, what are their names? is the number to call. Hi everybody out there, I'm Carl and you know what? You're listening to Radio Nottingham Sport with Martin . Every morning just before seven o'clock I ring somebody up on Radio Nottingham and say get out of bed. And it's Richard at Radio Nottingham and you're on the air at the moment, this is your wake-up call. Oh you're jok somebody's playing about here. Then there's a little bit of friendly conversation A chat? You must be joking at seven o'clock in the morning. I'll just dose off here Yo and you just talk away. Are you not not normally up at this time? And a chance to win a prize, it's the kind of thing that anyone would love to be nominated for. What you gonna do to Olga now next time you see her? Ring her neck. Well we could get her back another day couldn't we? It's on Radio Nottingham's breakfast show everyday at six fifty five, so send a nomination soon to in Nottingham. And if anybody puts my name down they are in big trouble. Radio Nottingham Sport Special, ten to eight, no goals at the moment at Lane between Notts and Pisa, across to Colin shortly. Always a nice tune that one int it? Lisa Stansfield and So Natural. Already at Lane, Colin . A blistering shot by an unmarked Tony at twelve yards has put Notts in front after eight minutes here against Pisa. 's headed er ball down, just inside the penalty area on the right hand side was picked up by , skipped past a defender, used the ball well, picked out , the Pisa defence wasn't in position, was and a r really fierce shot into the roof of the net and didn't have a chance to save at all and had got the important early breakthrough. What's much more important for him is of course is that he's score , got his name on the score sheet and Tony will be such a relieved man, and the crowd's so delighted for him. And all that let me tell you after Pisa looked so dangerous in the first eight minutes, clearly they'd come out looking for the early goal themselves, and who was badly fouled by in the early stages and needed attention, he's the number eight, and the number eleven, who looks as quick as any player I've seen in ages and ages, they are the two danger men and they will need some marking. But Notts will settle down because they've made it one nil. And thank you Tony . Yes, Colin reporting. More from Colin throughout the evening including some second half commentary for you. Great start, Notts one, Pisa nil, Tony the goal scorer there after six minutes. Just a reminder about other score tonight in group A of the Anglo-Italian Cup. Bolton Wanderers nil, Brescia one, the goal scorer there after three minutes. No goals as yet in the other game in group A against Charlton although as I warned you earlier, I don't think we'll have that score for you tonight because it is being played in Italy and er our chances of getting that score through the er computer here are remote to put it mildly. In group B, West Bromwich Albion against Padova, no goals as yet and two games in Italy tonight in that group against Southend and Pescara against Portsmouth. Interesting score lines already in the Coca Cola Cup third round replays. We were telling you earlier that Blackburn were one up over Shrewsbury Town, Mike the goal scorer after six, well has equalized immediately for Shrewsbury after twenty, Shrewsbury Town one, Blackburn Rovers one. That game got under way at er seven thirty so they're around about fifteen minutes away from half time. And Peterborough one, Blackpool nil is the latest score, the goal scorer there after three minutes. A reminder of that competition question for you, a History of Sport video to be won, we're after the three world heavyweight champions. Who are they? The three current world heavyweight champions, is the the number to call. On we go to the news with a bit of Mash. B B C news in the East Midlands at eight o'clock with Mike . Contempt writs have been served against the Home Secretary and his predecessor Kenneth Clarke for trying to deport the legal guardian of six Nottingham children who were prohibited from leaving the country. has been looking after her younger brothers and sisters since they were made wards of court when their parents were sent back to India. Jeremy reports. The family came to Britain from Assam when their home was burnt down during Hindu Sikh riots nine years ago. But after losing a protracted fight for asylum both parents were deported. Now their eldest daughter has been told to leave too, but her supporters believe the decision is a clear breach of the children's wardship order. Lawyers are expected to argue that Michael Howard and Mr Clarke are both in contempt of the court's decision by pursuing 's deportation. Her eldest brother says she should be allowed to stay. If they deport our sister from us, the family's gonna be dead actually cos there's gonna be nobody left here to look after them. It's very hard for us to live without parents, but with our sister at least we feel secured cos if she's our guardian and she look after us. If found guilty Mr Howard and Mr Clarke could be fined and ordered to pay court costs. It'd also allow Miss 's lawyers to seek an injunction preventing the deportation which would set a legal precedent. Her supporters believe it'd force the government to reexamine their deportation procedures. A Derbyshire school's been closed today after staff complained that fumes in the building were causing chest and throat problems. Experts from and officials from Amper Valley Council have been carrying out tests to try and trace the cause of the problem at Langley Mill Junior School. The school says no pupils have been affected by the fumes. But Dawn whose children attend Langley Mill school says people in the area noticed a strange smell near their homes last week. Like when you've got a gas leak, that's how it smells. It's just that the smell, it's it's just that you can smell it through the house and through the drains, kitchen, bathroom, anywhere where there's drainage. Union representatives and the management at Leicester General Hospital have been holding talks today to save more than eighty jobs. This follows the announcement that many of the cleaning posts are to be shed to make economi economy savings. Ian reports. The cleaning posts are to go following a fall in revenue of three hundred thousand pounds and a fundamental review of domestic services. A sp been holding a demonstration against the plans today. One of the cleaners threatened with redundancy says the news has been devastating. I think it's disgusting, they should do more for people. We all need jobs, we all need food to eat, we have families to look after. The staff have now put forward plans which could save the jobs. It's up to the management to decide whether they're feasible. A Home Office pathologist has told the James murder trial at Preston Crown Court that he found forty two injuries on the child's body. Two eleven year old boys have denied abducting and murdering James and the attempted abduction of another boy. is to review the future of three Yorkshire pits with the intention of closing them. Fifteen hundred people are employed at the coal mines at Frickley, Hatfield and Bentley. say demand for coal from power stations has fallen. The National Union of Mineworkers says closure would devastate local communities. There's been a new twist in the controversy over Lincolnshire's flood warning sirens. Ten days ago the Home Office told which operates the sirens to dismantle the equipment, an instruction that angered Lincolnshire County Council. Today the agriculture minister Gillian Shepherd has said she's asking to keep the sirens in an operational state, at least until the end of the present storm tide seasons. As Lincolnshire's chief er fire and emergency planning office John is concerned, the intervention by Mrs Shepherd has changed nothing. Well the weather forecast for tonight in the East Midlands, rain and cloudy with mist over hills and the rain rather persistent with some heavy bursts as well. The minimum temperature six Celsius, that's forty three Fahrenheit, Wednesday starting cloudy with some further patchy light rain or drizzle in places, but during the afternoon most parts becoming dry and a little brighter. B B C East Midlands news, it's five past eight.. This is Radio Nottingham Sport with Martin . . Five past eight and the latest score in the Anglo-Italian Cup, Notts County one, Pisa nil, Tony after six minutes, back with Colin shortly. One one between Peterborough and Blackpool and one one between Shrewsbury and Blackburn in the Coca Cola Cup. Electronic with Getting Away With it, always reminds me a bit of the new order record that er came out in the nineteen ninety world cup period. Similar sort of guitar work apparently or so they tell me. A approaching ten minutes after eight, B B C Radio Nottingham Sport Special with myself Martin through until ten tonight. Across to shortly for the climax of the first half in the Coca Cola Cup third round replay, Shrewsbury one, Blackburn Rovers one is the latest score. Before that though another goal at the lane for Colin . It's two nil to Notts, it's stuff here because Tony scored and he hadn't scored previously this season when he banged one in on eight minutes. And now would you believe it's the other Notts player who hadn't scored this season, has been desperate for a goal, Paul . You wouldn't call it the best buildup you ever seen and after a little bit of scrappy play which Pisa failed to get the ball away, it fell inviting on the edge of the area, and he struck it with all the confidence and aplomb a a player who's been planting 'em in the back of the net all season. He hasn't, but on this occasion and for the second time with just over twenty minutes played, the Pisa goalkeeper was picking the ball out of the back of the net. Pisa when they come forward, don't be misled, are playing some very attractive football indeed. And there was one real chance of an equalizer, what was doing to miss the target completely with a header when he had only to beat? There were all sorts of arguments went on between and the central defender that's Phil on loan from Sheffield Wednesday tonight with playing at left back, and what was doing, well maybe could explain to because I couldn't fathom it either myself. But he allowed get clear and almost made it one one. has made it two nil. That's football isn't it? And er Notts are pressing through again and er two down, of course Pisa are beginning to pull players back but on the break they are dangerous and here they come again. The flag stays down, he's wide on the left hand side, goes to close him down, holds on, he's on the edge of the area, he shoots, and the shot is charged down and then pushed behind, no rescues it, good work by , sheer determination by the Notts goalkeeper, acting almost as an extra defender. Got the ball away when it might've been a fourth Pisa corner. Yes they've had three of those, Notts have had only one, but Notts have scored the two goals. And the names on the score sheet, don't rub your eyes in disbelief when you see the morning paper, they are and . And it's going pretty well down at Lane so far, Colin our reporter down there. Just to remind you er we'll be k taking regular reports from Colin throughout the night plus a bit of second half commentary as well. The other group A game tonight, Bolton nil, Brescia one, and that's good news from Notts County's point of view. I'm sure most of you are aware of the er the way this er competition is sorted out. But basically, although Brescia,,and Pisa are in the same league as Notts County, how they er fare in the competition doesn't really bother Notts County er as apart from their games against Notts. What I'm trying to say is that er Notts County supporters have gotta watch out for the other English teams' scores rather than the Italian teams' scores. Notts County have got to finish top of the English section of group A. So the fact that Bolton before tonight had got three points as too had Notts, is er indicative of the fact that Notts need to win tonight and they could do with Bolton losing. Middlesbrough and Charlton make up the group, Charlton tonight away to , Middlesbrough don't play this evening, er no details as yet about how the game is going in Italy and we don't expect to have any details either er because of the difficulties getting the score from Italy. We can go to Shrewsbury though because er that's much closer to home isn't it? Shrewsbury against Blackburn Rovers, third round replay of the Coca Cola Cup, Blackburn went ahead after six minutes through Mike and equalizing for Shrewsbury on twenty. We can now go live to . John the former Manchester City manager is there, a former manager of Shrewsbury as well, he's with Alan and Blackburn have just gone close to going two one up. a great great save at this time in the game, they certainly don't wanna concede a goal now. with a corner. Again right footed, hanging in the air,, heads it up and away. tries to head it back into the penalty area and it rebounds off . forward by and again the clearance comes out and again clear is there. It's hit towards the halfway line, Alan the sole defender for Blackburn at the moment, he plays it to to his right, forward it goes to now that's a good ball down the far side of the field, plenty of er men available, 's one of them inside the penalty area, the cross wasn't so good from and it's gonna run harmlessly behind for a goal kick. It's it's odd though to see David being so positive in the penalty area because he's only ever scored four league goals you know he's never scored in the cup. He doesn't look the sort of player to me that would score many goals I have to say. But that was a good break great save by the goalkeeper. certainly has earned his few quid tonight, about to take this goal kick, we're inside the final minute of what has been a very good first half for the third division side, one goal each. But could ruin the first half, forward inside the p Shrewsbury penalty area, being forced to run wide though that was good play by . finds , trying to make room for the cross, he's tackled and tackled and it's only a goal kick. Yes it's only a goal kick to Shrewsbury Town. still talking to the referee there's a lot of chirping going on out there, and the referee can clamp down on that very easily by just reaching for his hip pocket. He hasn't done so yet. We're into time added on by . We've had a couple of stoppages in the first half, not the sort that will give us the nine minutes of added time we had at Highbury on Saturday, but certainly a minute or two this evening. The lights come on. Ha, we're expecting a cup of tea. Shrew Shrewsbury try to play the ball forward, runs after it but he knew it was a lost cause and the ball is through to Bobby . hits his clearance to the halfway line, controlled immediately by inside the centre circle, he was unmarked, has to careful here, and he isn't careful, it's won back by , now he's got to the right, running into the penalty area, could do with an early cross, holds it up, slips it back, knocks it in to the middle now, jumps, doesn't make contact, it's headed away by and good play now between and , gets it back to , 's clearance, onto the head of , good header on too to . Still short of the halfway line now we've already played over a minute of added time in the first half and the referee oh I thought he was gonna blow for half time, instead he's spotted something on the nearside of the field, it's a free kick to Blackburn. takes it but surely not from the right position. Play allowed to continue, forwards towards ,he's had a good game tonight if it's even if it's not his regular position he's been pushed there by and as a result it's a free kick to Shrewsbury Town . defended very well there Shrewsbury, he was in a little big of trouble but Tommy came away with the ball very well. With with the free kick, it's midway inside his own half and Blackburn as they as they do away from home they get everybody behind the ball even if they are from the third division. It's played upfield and headed away by but into Shrewsbury's possession nearside, good ball, forward down the right flank and it's knocked back by , is the second chance, now level with the edge of the penalty area, 's available once more, is tackled and the ball is out of play despite 's rather erm annoyed look, it is a throw-in to Shrewsbury Town and of course gets booed, but then he gets booed everywhere. He's he's a player they like to dislike don't they? I don't think that'll bother him too much. No it doesn't, he's a tough little character, lovely lad too. Throw-in by into the penalty area, heads it away, jumps again but too late, blows his whistle does the referee Keith and the applause tells you that they're happy at , they should be, it's one goal each. I think Shrewsbury have done very very well, they conceded a goal very early on in the game and they could have gone to pieces but they gathered themselves together, got back in the game with a goal from and they've done themselves proud so far. What they must not do is to get in there at half time and think that they have done their job. They've gotta get in there, brush and wash themselves down and come in with renewed vigour and really have a go at Blackburn in the second half. I mean John , Blackburn ha have kept the pace up, so it will be quick for Shrewsbury tonight. They Yeah. they are not premier league players so they're gonna tire as the evening goes on. Yes contingency can you make to er look after that? They will I a agree with that but the nice thing is that if they can get out there and get at 'em and get another goal that will build their confidence and their stamina and everything up and I thi really do think Alan that they have a chance. Early on within this game I th when Blackburn scored I thought this game would be taken away from 'em. But credit to everybody concerned with the team, they've dug in, dug their heels in, come back well, scored a goal and if they're confident now in themselves and go out there with that belief they can really do something here tonight. And presumably you'd like to see push a little bit further upfield? Well i it always bothers me. It always it it is always a thing that is i within football,y you get a goal and then you get in behind the ball and think that you you're safe and you're alright. You're not, you've gotta get people marked down and you gotta stop them from developing the play. And at times Blackburn have been allowed to develop the play far too readily. Well having seen Blackburn Rovers away from home a few times this season I I've gotta say at half time I thought they'd they'd be comfortably in control. They're not. Alan and John our reporting team there at , one apiece, Shrewsbury and Blackburn, back there for some second half commentary later on. Last time we were at Lane Notts were leading by two goals to nil over Pisa but the Italians have got one back. Colin . Yes I pick up on the comment from the , Notts aren't as in control as they were, after first Tony and then Paul got their names on the score sheet in each case for the first time this season, both with bristling finishing efforts and you'd be a harsh critic indeed who didn't agree that Pisa deserved to pull one back because they played some fine attacking football, and it was the player who's caused most danger, who's wearing the number eleven that moved across to the right hand side, got clear of the defence, pulled back an absolutely brilliant clot cross and in the middle who'd missed an earlier header on fifteen minutes to make it one one, didn't miss on this occasion. The Notts defence pulled absolutely all over the place and it it was the pace of coming up down that right hand touchline that did it. There's plenty of pace in this er Pisa forward line and er they aren't finished, this game isn't finished. I kept making the point on Saturday here at Lane Martin, that I didn't think that erm we'd had the last of the goals as they kept er popping in at both ends, and I'm sure though we've had three with a little over half an hour played here, we haven't seen the last of the goals here either. And I don't think we've seen the last from Pisa at two one. Notts er haven't got a sufficient advantage to feel that er this game is all over and done with. And the very player that I was talking about then, turns up now down the left hand side, he holds on so well, the cross again, and er again almost gets the cross in and our er colleague from the Italian service is er getting very excited a just away to my left, but er the header is wide, he can calm down a little, have an aspirin, and it's still two one for Notts, but er Pisa they're a danger, and to me they look far more dangerous than the Italian opponents in the last game here at Lane in this same competition. Colin at Lane. Ah Lou Christie there and Lightning Strikes, B B C Radio Nottingham Sport Special, twenty three minutes after eight o'clock er let me just bring you up to date with the latest scores up and down the country. In the Coca Cola Cup third round replay as we were hearing a short while ago from , third division Shrewsbury Town one, Blackburn Rovers one, for Rovers after six, the equalizer on twenty. Peterborough now two one up over Blackpool in the other replay, Peterborough going ahead after three minutes through , a own goal making it one one after fourteen, has just given Peterborough a two goal advantage. In the Anglo-Italian Cup group A, Notts County two, Pisa one, on eight, Paul on twenty, getting a goal back for Pisa on thirty er approaching half time, six minutes to go before half time, across there with Colin for that half time report as soon as the whistle goes. And the other game in group A, Bolton have pulled a goal back against Brescia, it's now one apiece, for Brescia after three and with the equalizer on thirty nine. In group B, one game taking place tonight in England, West Bromwich Albion two, Padova one, on sixteen and an own goal by after twenty eight but on twenty nine has pulled a goal back for Padova, it's two one. And now in the er Trophy games this evening, these are the latest scores, Brentford nil Wickham two, Burnley nil Carlisle one, David on target there after forty, Bury one Stockport two, Cambridge against Gillingham, Cardiff against Torquay, Exeter against Plymouth, all goalless, Hull nil Scarborough two, Northampton one Hereford one, Portvale against Wrexham still awaiting the first goals there, Rotherham nil Huddersfield one, and York City one Hartlepool nil. The all important game as far as we're concerned in this area is taking place at Saltergate tonight, it's Chesterfield against Lincoln City, er that's the group in which er Mansfield Town have been competing and er well it's pretty complicated in this competition too. Basically, you get three points if you win a game, one point if you get a draw, no points if you lose. Now so far, Mansfield have played two games. They lost to Lincoln one nil and then they beat Chesterfield three one. So the table going into tonight's game, Mansfield on top with three points from two games, Lincoln three points from one and Chesterfield no points from one game. Now the way it's sorted out in this competition is that er it's points first, if two teams are level on points then it's the number of goals scored, then it's goal difference and if they're all level after that then it's drawing lots and the top team in the group have a home game in round two and the team that finishes runners up are away in round two. Is that all pretty simple for you? Mm I hope so. So basically if Lincoln draw tonight then they'll finish top and Mansfield will be second, if er Lincoln win they'll be top and Mansfield will be second. If Chesterfield win then we're in into the realms of er the old calculator, er because if they win all teams will have three points. It th will then be down to goals scored. At the moment Lincoln have Did you know there's someone waiting for you at Radio Nottingham's reception, Pudsey Bear is sitting there waiting for you to take him home. He's in two sizes, eight inches and thirteen inches. Or there's seven different kinds of Pudsey badges, sweatshirts, children in need T-shirts or a baseball hat or Pudsey Bear bugs. Children in need night's just around the corner, so come into Radio Nottingham soon and purchase your Pudsey. We're in House on Road in Nottingham and reception's open from nine till six every weekday, wear your Pudsey with pride, get the bare necessities. Oh it's come round quick again hasn't it? Hi everybody out there, I'm Carl and you know what? You're listening to Radio Nottingham Sport with Martin . And it's half past eight, approaching half time down at Lane, Notts County against Pisa in the Anglo-Italian Cup, across with Colin as soon as the half time whistle goes. Elsewhere in the Coca Cola Cup third round replays, Peterborough two one up over Blackpool, Shrewsbury one one against Blackburn. In the Anglo-Italian Cup group A er Bolton one apiece against Brescia and in group B West Bromwich Albion two Padova one. Er our latest competition question for you, we are asking for you to identify the nationalities of these three riders, Rider A pretty good video er we've er had a look in the office actually and er surprisingly enough it's got through the censors and we're actually giving it out as a prize. Mm mm mm. Don't forget tomorrow night we have another Sport Special, Nottingham Forest against Wolverhampton Wanderers in the Endsleigh Insurance first division, Colin will be in this seat and I'll be popping across to Molyneux, my first ever trip to Molyneux would you believe? And er I understand from Colin that er it is a very very good ground indeed at the moment so quite looking forward to that one. We'll be having er our usual comprehensive coverage of the , five past seven the programme starts and included in the programme we'll also be talking er basketball, we have er guests from the city's basketball team, the Nottingham Cobras. That's all to come tomorrow night at five past seven, Forest away to Wolves and also tomorrow night we have Coca Cola Cup replays as well don't we, so er don't miss that one. Colin in the chair, I'll be down at er Molyneux for the match. Just a reminder then of er the scores tonight, in the Coca Cola Cup, Peterborough two Blackpool one and Shrewsbury one Blackburn Rovers one and the Anglo-Italian Cup, it's Bolton one Brescia one and in group B it's West Bromwich Albion two Padova one. Now then er regular listeners will know that over the last couple of years or so we've done some special listener trips for you er and we've gone down to London. We've been to Lords and we've also been to Wembley, we've been to Twickenham and we've also been to Wimbledon. Well next spring, in May of next year, we're looking to put a trip together to go to the northwest of the country, to Old Trafford, obviously er Manchester United's home ground, also to Anfield and also to a couple of er other places that aren't sort of sporty but I'm sure will interest you. Granada T V studios in Manchester and also the Beatles centre in Liverpool. At the moment we're er just sorting out the price of things, we think it will be available at around about ninety nine pounds and that will include your travel there, your hotel accommodation and I've got the leaflet of the hotel in front of me and it looks pretty spectacular actually. It's called the Hotel Leisure and Conference Centre, it's actually based at Chorley or Charley if you come from that neck of the woods and er everybody that goes will be able to use the lagoon swimming pool er or challenge someone to a game of squash on one of our six courts. You could also work out in our fully equipped gymnasium so it sounds pretty plush doesn't it? Erm we're just in the the throes at the moment of putting things together there er so if you are interested then erm keep listening and we'll give you some more details on that er potential trip in the forthcoming weeks. It sounds pretty good and it would be around about May the twenty first twenty second, so it would be after the football season has finished er so we'd have a tour of Old Trafford, the Manchester United football ground behind the scenes, go to the special museum there, see all of their trophies, do something similar at Anfield the following morning and in the afternoon on the Saturday go to Granada T V studios and er on the Sunday we'll be going er around Liverpool and their various er little places of nostalgia around the er the Beatles. That's er all to come in May. Twenty three minutes, no no no it's not twenty three Martin, you're not reading the clock correctly, it's twenty six and a half minutes away from nine o'clock, they're still playing down at Lane so they're getting er enough time down there to er get stuck into er all the injury time. Two one, Notts County lead, Tony after six, Paul after twenty, Pisa getting a goal back through after thirty minutes. We'll be across to Colin as soon as the half time whistle goes. Just a reminder of that er quiz competition we have for you at the moment, we're giving away a Superbike video and the quiz question for you is about motorbike riders and we want you identify the nationality of these three riders please, Michael is rider A, Randy is rider B and is rider C. So give us a call come on the line tell Chris and Kieran that it's er the Superbike competition you're coming in for and then say rider A Michael is from where, rider B Randy is from where and rider C is from there. And you may well win yourself that Superbike video. I cannot believe the amount of injury time actually, you see if I put a record on at half past eight they'll have finished bang on half past eight but er the fact that I carry on rabbiting and telling you about the quiz competition three or four times er they decide to play plenty of injury time. But the half time whistle has gone, four minutes late but it's gone. Colin. Just gone, we're obviously working to Italian time in this Italian job because we've had really five minutes of stoppage time at the end of the first half and I'm a bit baffled as to why we had it. I'm also baffled about the first half in more respect than one. Baffled by some of the refereeing decisions but that's a minor thing compared to the fact that Notts were two goals ahead with just about minutes played and then went completely off the boil, they had Pisa on the run, they failed to capitalize on it and Pisa have finished the stronger of the two sides towards the end of the first half. And only two amazing misses, one of those candidly coming er just before scored the second Notts goal, with a headed chance headed wide when er had come and missed it, and when on forty four minutes on the watch but not a minute before the end of half time if you get the meaning because we had that long period of extra time, er missed the chance completely, he'd made the er Pisa goal brilliantly with a cross from the right hand side, deep cross, pulled back brilliantly, but left with a chance, the number eleven in front of the post, well what was he doing? again had come and again he'd missed it and left with an open goal was wide of the target. Well Notts went wide of the target on eight minutes, it was er all really set up by Gary with a little header down to Paul , inside right channel, lobbed it on to, the defence was wide open and who hadn't scored this season got the very goal that he's been wanting to score to add to his match winning performance on Saturday, when he was made the patrons' player of the match and er he thumped the ball in the net, it was quite a blistering effort and Notts should've settled down on that and certainly should've settled down on twenty one. It was an untidy sort of buildup but the ball fell invitingly for on the edge of the area and who hasn't been scoring at all this season finished with all the aplomb of a player who's full of confidence. hasn't been, he's been even more desperate than to get a goal, but he got one on twenty one. In between time as I say we'd had 's header wide which was one of the mysteries of the first half. And then on thirty two minutes, Pisa got a goal which quite frankly they deserved and it was a brilliant effort, it was probably the best goal of the three. made it down the right hand side, he's wearing number eleven but he came down the right hand side on this occasion and er a deep cross, he pulled it back brilliantly and who'd missed that earlier header was there and couldn't really miss on this occasion, but it was a fine header by him. Not the cover on him there might have been, the sort of er chance clear chance that was given say to in the local derby match the other Saturday, and really made it count. Pisa have some fine individual players, the number ten er finished the first half having er had attention, limping rather badly and er Pisa have all their substitutes who've remained out and are warming up. It'll be int=sting to see whether or not they're gonna make some changes in the second half. I'll make the point again Martin that just as on Saturday when goals were flying in at both ends and eventually it finished three two, I kept saying don't believe the scoring is all over in this game, that's my feeling now. But although it's two one to Notts, the scoring is a long way from over and Pisa, two one down, are a long way from being finished with. Okay Colin. Colin at Lane for us. Notts County against Pisa, two one at half time, we'll be bringing you er commentary in the second half, sharing the commentary with the match at between Shrewsbury Town and Blackburn Rovers, it's a third round replay in the Coca Cola Cup, Blackburn went ahead on six minutes through Mike , equalizing on twenty and a short while ago Shrewsbury taking the lead, a penalty put away with some aplomb by , they lead two one. So let's go across to now, our commentary team Alan , er John the former Manchester City and former Shrewsbury Town manager and also there is er Rob and we've got more excitement. And it's Tommy who's scored, the young Irishman has done so well at the heart of the defence for Shrewsbury, has got into the opposition penalty area and what about this for a score line? Multi-million pound Blackburn Rovers are trailing this side modestly built by Fred for Shrewsbury it's Shrewsbury three, Blackburn Rovers one. There've been some big by Shrewsbury over the years, I'll tell ya there've been some big clubs here in the past years and it looks very much on the cards again tonight, they have got a massive job on their hands now Blackburn to come back into this. Blackburn Rovers are being run absolutely ragged here. Eleven minutes of the second half gone, Shrewsbury Town three, Blackburn Rovers one, Kevin , Steve with a penalty and Tommy the young Irishman doing so well tonight here to get those goals for Shrewsbury, we're going off to Neil . Yes Celtic certainly look like they're back from the brink coming forward at every opportunity and it paid off with John , he ball, Steven couldn't clear and Brian well and Celtic in control Aberdeen nil Celtic one. Who'd have thought that Shrewsbury would be in control here but with twelve minutes of the second half gone they are. And Blackburn are desperately fighting for their lives in this league cup competition. They have the ball out with Stewart on this right hand side, so much needed of him tonight, he gets that one across, it falls to and gets the shot in and makes the save. Shrewsbury stood around there, apparently looking for the offside and in the end it was an awful effort at goal. Yeah they got away with murder there, that looked very very iffy whether it was offside, the linesman didn't give it, the really should have scored. But now could move them forward again down this right hand side, he holds it up, fifteen yards inside the Shrewsbury half, turns it in, fields short to David , now takes over, hooks it up towards the penalty area, headed down by ,good break for Oh , he's gone down, he's looking for a penalty and it's been given, the referee consulted the linesman, he looked at his nearside, it was who went in or was it Chris on David , the penalty award has been given by the referee, he looked to confirm it with the linesman on the nearside and that confirmation was all that he had needed to point to the spot. So Blackburn Rovers now do have an opportunity to put themselves back in with a shout in this tie. It's Mike who's scored three goals, scored four goals already this season. steps up and right footed he blasts it into the bottom corner , it subdues the Shrewsbury crowd somewhat, Blackburn fans are rampant because at last there's some light for them but they're still trailing Shrewsbury by three goals to two. Two rash tackles, one at the other end by Mike and now one at this end in the Shrewsbury with it was certainly Shrewsbury penalty goa erm penalty was won, Blackburn's was as well. So how important Tommy goal could prove. But Shrewsbury are after more, they're looking to set away now and that one has been pushed away by Colin . Now here takes over, under pressure he is from Chris back inside his own half, taking over is Nicky , blasts that one forward towards Graham he's trying to hook it out to on this right hand side and that one goes well beyond David and out for a throw-in. I think if Shrewsbury can hold on now for the next five or six or seven minutes they could be alright. If they concede another goal again now I think they could be in serious trouble again. It's very unfortunate. I must say. We are at the at where Shrewsbury Town of the third division lead premiership Blackburn by three goals to two, but Blackburn now moving forward, getting it across, it breaks back to drives it in low and left footed and that one is off the target, a shot driven in from twenty five yards by , not finding the goal. That's not un that's not like at all is it? That was a great great left footed shot and could have got a nasty deflection, it's luckily for Shrewsbury it went straight through everybody and er over for a goal kick. Yes Alan was mentioning in the first half poor strike rate, just four goals in over two hundred and fifty appearances in his time at Leeds United. But now Blackburn moving forward looking for has gone, four minutes late That was a great cross by , did absolut did absolutely magnificent, he controlled the ball he turned left footed shot in and hit against the post, very very unfortunate fo for Blackburn but then I suppose Shrewsbury deserve a little bit of luck. So much happening here at the moment as the ball was followed up by David he looked at the referee as er challenge him for the er shove inside the penalty area but the referee was unimpressed by that, Blackburn have already got one penalty here tonight from which they've scored, Shrewsbury have scored from a penalty too and it's the third division side still in the lead here by three goals to two. Who would have thought it? Here is now, left edge of the penalty area, moving towards the byline and doing well there to take it away from him but at the expense of a throw-in, that's taken back to Alan , is twenty yards back from the byline and moving back out towards the touchline on the far side. Looks for the support of Graham and finds it. gets past but he can't get past and Shrewsbury are breaking with it but they're still inside their own half at the moment with Kevin who gave them the fighting chance with the original equalizer inside the first half. is under pressure again now and loses out to Kevin . takes over, Blackburn push it wide, at last has found some space but comes across to try and close him down, support just behind from , it's a woeful cross from and it's easily cleared by Shrewsbury Town right up to the centre circle, where it's taken on the chest of Nicky . squares the ball to his left and Alan the left back just pushes it out wide to that far side but he loses out, competing successfully, he's got going forward if he can find him, and gets it and lays it off to and can now run at Mickey once more. He's wide on the right, holding it up, looking for support,two in the middle, looks for , goes for it can't quite get the contact he would have wanted and it runs back to in what must be a very edgy Blackburn penalty area at the moment. Great run again by Mickey , did ever so well, came inside, knocked a good ball into , unfortunately he just couldn't get hold of it and the goalkeeper came out and collected it. A good move again by Shrewsbury. Now Blackburn pushing forward,sets away inside the penalty area but who's been so convincing in the Shrewsbury goal tonight and made some important contributions, makes another one there, so alert, racing off the line to get there before could get a snip. Shrewsbury have got to make sure as much as possible when they do win the ball in the they don't just smash long balls up, because as l as soon as they do that and as long as they keep doing that, Blackburn just pick up the ball again and keep coming at them, they've got to try like they did just a few minutes ago, try and play themselves out of defence with nice low passes. Pulsating action and drama here at . Shrewsbury three, Blackburn two. They've had some important and notable cup victories here in their time have Shrewsbury Town, but none can have been as dramatic as this match, whatever the final result turns out to be. At the moment they're leading by three goals to two as now plays it away to this right hand side to Stewart , makes a charge forward, he's taking on Chris , he's getting to the right edge of the penalty area, he crosses low with his right boot, chance for in the area , he turned quickly on it but he blasted the t the shot over the top of the bar. Looked very dangerous there , he got at his left full back, er the sad thing from Shrewsbury's point of view is that he keeps getting down that right wing and he keeps getting crosses in. They've got to try and stop that somehow or other. Sixty four minutes of the match gone, and goals from Kevin , a Steve penalty and a header from Tommy make it Shrewsbury Town two, Blackburn Rovers three. And this after Blackburn had taken the lead in the first half with a goal from Mike who's since reduced the arrears to three two with a second goal from the penalty spot. But now it's at the left edge of the area. Gets it across, controls with his right foot, strikes with his left and it cannons back off a defender and gets it away. Headed back up by to , hook ball, looking for ,gets his head underneath and it's just over the top of the bar, he got the full force of his head beneath that ball and it looped up and over the top of er an anxious looking Paul crossbar. You wouldn't know what a great block that was by Tommy . He that boy has got a heart as big as a mountain I'll tell ya, in those situations he will sling himself at anything. He did that there and he blocked what looked like to me a certain goal. Twenty eight years of age, Tommy , made just a handful of appearances for Sunderland before coming here to Shrewsbury Town and he's made important contributions at both ends tonight, because his could be the goal that takes Shrewsbury past Blackburn and to a lucrative tie against Tottenham. But what have we here as plays the ball across, it comes back off and out to the left hand side where the urgency from the crowd is for to get rid of it. And he does so and he finds and squares the ball to his right, Alan made an advance for it but it's was there first, put ball forward looking for and it's just beyond the fair haired striker and races away to pick it up. What a shame just Mickey again out on the right hand side, Dean made a great diagonal run in behind the full back and the ball was just a little bit heavy otherwise there could've been real danger again for Blackburn. Now let's keep reminding you about the time situation, sixty five minutes gone, Shrewsbury have another twenty five minutes in which to hang on here, it's Shrewsbury three, Blackburn Rovers two, it's gonna be a nervous evening here for the normally placid Shropshire folk at as that ball is headed forward by and here's , again in field to , clipped forward for Mike , here comes advancing towards the edge of the penalty area, he's gotta try and get past the brick wall of , and it's now who tries to release down the right hand side, he's gotta get past , he does so,he gets the ball across and that one is cleared importantly by only as far as who tries to hook it back in and that the ball wouldn't reach him and it wouldn't reach either and it's gone out for a goal kick to Shrewsbury. has become an increasingly dangerous on this right hand side I have said just now they must try and stop this coming in because he is getting some magnificent balls in to the penalty area and sooner or later they're gonna concede a goal. Shrewsbury fans hoping that won't do what they hope he will do for England against San Marino next week, if he's picked of course. It's a throw-in to David of Blackburn, down the right hand side, that one's headed on by Stewart , the clearance from , is picked up by David who nipped in there ahead of and now here's once more down the inside left channel, pushing it up towards the edge of the penalty area where holds it up well, they're working well at the moment down that left hand side as gets it across, a snatched header comes in and it's pushed behind by Chris for a corner kick, and we're at the midway point of the second half, with Shrewsbury leading three two, Alan will describe it for you. I couldn't find the microphone here. Oh well, with a corner for Blackburn, three two down, played to the near post,heads it on, headed away and out of the penalty area, whipped clear by Mark towards the halfway line, but Shrewsbury had everyone defending so it's the red and black striped shirts of Rovers who have the ball again. down the right flank, teasing the defender with, takes him on on the outside, pulls the cross back but he under-headed,it's still Frank , with a cross, over 's head, still inside the danger area shoots and it's saved by . It's some game it really is. Ah and it really is, it it looks like being a very very long twenty odd minutes to for Shrewsbury Town, they're really getting at 'em now Blackburn, they're having all the play and. Are you? Yeah. Well that's what I've er she said I've got to come and see you first. Oh I see, right, that's fine, yeah. Right, let's have a look, whereabouts is it? I've got two actually There's one there. Ee. It's er, yeah that should be fine, we shouldn't have any great problem with that. Yeah, the other one? The other one is this high, that's a Yeah, well we could do the same with both of those. They're both, they're both, neither of them are actually warts, okay? They're both rather fleshy skin tanks. Skin tanks. There's two ways of doing this, you can either put some local anaesthetic in and actually burn them off, but that often leaves a bit of a scar. Or you can actually try freezing them to kill them and then they just drop off on their own. And that's Mm. probably the neater mes method of the two. And certainly the easiest for you. Erm I'd probably give it a go on freezing first, the only thing about the freezing is sometimes it doesn't work first time. But that'd be the tidiest thing for you. And we Mm. can get that set up. Now I'm actually, there isn't another session now until the week after next, cos I'm actually away next week. Mm. Er er but then we'll have more sessions booked in, we can just slot you in to one of those I should think. Yeah. There's someone away all August but I'm actually going to try to keep the sessions going, Yeah. cos there's actually quite a demand for them. Yeah. Well I'm away So er twenty second of August again so Yeah. er what will you do, let me know? Or No, what we'll do is go and actually get you booked in. Oh. So twenty one, where are we? Twenty first, so if we got you booked in for that. Follow me. Yeah. Follow me. As I said we may not have a set up but if we haven't we'll set one now. Interviews on Wednesday twenty sixth of January. Good discussions with Trevor . Right Trevor have you got your application form for me ? I have yes. I have it there somewhere. While I'm erm a look at that, I've got some brief notes here from Norman er you were with financial services for some time yeah? Yes a few years. Twenty six? Few years. Yeah. Wow what a what a survivor. . But erm I understand that er is it or ? Have Yes. made it very difficult for people. Well it's I got the option to er I got the option to erm take a golden handshake so Oh right redundancy offered yeah. Well not redundancy it was er what you call severance. Oh right okay. It was cos it was change of contract. You'll see it in there Okay right. and er and the the comments of me of me erm of me manager and me assistant manager Right. they didn't want me to go naturally. Mm you're you've made the decision have you? Er I've made the decision I've gone I've gone. Oh you've Finished finished. All right. So now I'm look for another erm job you see . Opportunity and er there aren't too many around unfortunately in the in the bracket of the fifties. No I know . Which I'm in as well. Erm while I'm having a look at this although it wouldn't seem to me to be taking too long to look at this Trevor, what you see on the table over there Yes. is a a selection of product representing all six companies Right. that we have. Where we have erm er advertising consultants. Yes. If you'd like to have a a quick look through those while I'm er, please ask any questions while you're looking through, and I'll ask any questions that I'll need to here . Right okay okay. Although in this case er since nineteen sixty eight it erm not very much to ask you about is there? Not really. Mm. You've given a couple of reference here Yes. and er you know I I read them fairly straightforward Yes. er and you've put them under business references, are they businesses these? Er no they're they're my mana who I used to who my boss. Ah right okay. Okay. My my er just a minute now this one They're not on letter headings and so I just thought they might be No no erm they're private okay. You know they're private really statements cos they don't want the you know they they Company used they they're not allowed to say for the company. I mean you can still get a reference off me old company which er you know the London Yeah. Er there's also a solicitor there as well. Okay. Some give some don't. Yes that's right. But it was from the but they wouldn't they're not allowed see they're not allowed now see there's another LAUTRO yeah yeah Oh yes I know . They're not to write it on letter heading cos it means it says it's coming from the London. Yes okay. London er er in fact the insurance companies are fairly erm rigid on this now. Some won't just won't Yes yes give them now. Well the London is very rigid. You know what I mean. Er Right. I mean the fact that you've got them here er They were they were rigid before the even the LAUTRO came in. D'ya know what I mean? Yes. They were you know Now you're not from this part of the country by the sound of it ? No. No I've been I've been here a long time like You down in the Smo from the Smoke somewhere? Er no no. I'm er Edmonton London. Oh that's what I meant. Edmonton oh yes Smoke is it Smoke the Smoke is I thought you meant the Midlands or something. No no no. The Smoke is another name for London. Yeah. Or was in my young young days anyway. I see here you er say you've done door to door canvassing Yes. Er in what aspect in the financial services? Yes. When did you er where did you do that up here? Yes. Up here yeah. We had an ongoing er thing you know what I mean that erm er now and again they used to have pushes and we used to out and do a little bit door Or what we what we call a blitz in some companies . Yes that's right yeah yeah. All right. That entailed door to door canvassing then? Yes. How did you feel about that? Oh I don't mind it I don't mind it . I mean there aren't many companies now that would er probably ask you No no no. to do that. No. We we er we used to do it like just for door openers really. Oh okay. Door openers really cos there's that you know yeah yeah. I don't mind it. How do you think erm you're gonna face the er, you gonna get withdrawal symptoms from the financial services? Not really no no. No I don't think so no. Looking forward to a change are you? Well just yeah Mm mm. yeah. I thought it was ch you know as a challenge so I thought I would go. Okay. Erm you received our corporate brochure and you got a certain amount of information from er from Norman on the phone. Erm what have you gleaned from the er the brochure? Well that erm that what it is it's selling erm like to estate agents and that er printing material is that right? Well exactly what you see there on the. Well it's not no we don't sell the printed material Yeah oh I see. we sell the advertising on the printed material . Material. Or we supply the whole of that er those documents you see there. So you're like a erm like a booklet or something like that that they want to present er for say the clients are you with me? If they're selling Well if you a house or Er yes yes if you take er what you the products you see Yep. down this end here on that table Yep. you will see at the top the A four marketing folder Yeah. all right? Hope did you have a look in one of those? Yes I did yeah. Okay inside you will see er a number of advertising spaces Yep that's right. all right. Now our advertising consultants sell that space. Oh I see. The folder itself is the free gift if you like er to the estate Yes oh I see agent which we provide. I see. But the only way we can do that of course is to erm have some form of funding. Yeah. Now Norman would have er hopefully explained most that on the phone. Yeah. The important thing for me to emphasize to you er Trevor is that we don't make appointments to go and see people to talk about advertising. Right. Certainly erm I don't know what Norman says, but I would say on the phone to you, Let's make it absolutely clear that this is er in the main a telesales operation. Right. But it's not like the local newspaper and it's not like having a group of young people on a bank of telephones phoning every Right. individual er business in sight Yeah. Is that is that how it came across to you er through the brochure ? No no I thought it would be I thought it would be er out there meeting you know companies or whatever Mhm. and er trying to market the their their the advertising in the brochure. Well it certainly is the advertising. But one of the things that we have discovered over twenty year is the only way you will get people to come into that brochure is to make absolutely certain before you go and see them is to Right. tell them everything. Right. Now in financial services that's why I'm homing in er it'll be a dramatic change for you erm what whatever you go to let alone advertising. Erm er we close on the phone. Right I see. In other words er unlike financial services where you have to go and talk to people about their financial Yeah. state Yeah. financial health check I think one company calls it. Erm and then may be go away and calculate what er sort of deal they need Yes. that it not the case here. We tell them the price because we know the price almost immediately. I see. So erm that certainly is how I'm used to er I'm not like the London's a little bit different that other er financial services In in what respect? Well that mostly you most people have this impression like that you do the er come away and then go back again. Right? I know I know lap stops exists now of course. Yes that's right. Well what I mean we we don't do lap tops actually. Don't do What whichever. But erm never mind. Er we do the sales sometimes on the first on most cases now on the first er interview. But that's still face to face you mean? Yes face to face yeah. Erm most other companies I know do it on two interviews. Right yeah. You know what I mean? Two interviews you know. So we we're used So you do the close We're used to doing it up there and then you know. All right. There and then. In fact er double glazing and kitchen people try to close on that first meeting but they Yes. still have to do measurements they can't do it on the phone you see. That's right yeah. So whereas most financial services people er that come to us erm would have put down here er as you have, er in answer to our question, Have you qualified sales by telephone? You've answered yes. Yes. What you've done is qualified appointments by telephone. Whereas we Not always no not always . Okay well tell me no tell me please do because Yeah. our impression is and that's this is er people like yourself sitting there, is that er you will have qual you know you won't go and see people er unless I have to qualify erm you see. Er you have to keep your costs down Right yes. Okay you have to keep your cost down. Er I've qualified er people over the phone where it's a long distance. Right. Okay you know what I mean. Say if it's Washington here Yes. from my place Yes. like I er I You wouldn't get I I don't want to run out there just to sit in a house Right. Are you with me you know what I mean? To do Oh I I couldn't agree more. So I have to qualify people sometimes you know over the phone Right. that er So you so you know the principle I'm talking about there really. Yes. Okay. It still we still find it erm Trevor that er individuals, particularly from financial services Yes. but that also includes double glazing all people who have had to view things Right. in front people. Yeah. Erm either financially or Yeah. the window size or the kitchen size or the bathroom size, they can't price things out until such times as they've sat down face to face with client . Oh yeah yeah. Now we can. We tell people absolutely everything. Erm but let's ste let me step back a bit erm because I needed to emphasize that because you've spoken with somebody else Right. I wanted to check out what they say Right. because what I say on the phone I make it absolutely clear. A lot of people don't come face to face with me here No. on on discussions on the basis of what I tell them on the phone. So I'm qualifying people on the phone I guess . That's right yeah. Anyway let's er let's er talk about what er the purpose of today's discussions, and you notice I don't use the word interview. No. Er as far as I'm concerned er it's a self employed position I'm not offering quote a job Yes. unquote. It's a business opportunity. Er however erm if we get past the three stages that er I'm just talking about here, er we'll be talking about in the minute at least, er then er you'll fully understand what I mean about er you're almost as as employed as you'll ever be as a self employed person. Because we do guarantee continuity of assignments. Oh I see. So nobody sits at home saying, I wonder when my next assignment's coming from . Oh I see. You know. Finish one on a Friday and you'll start a new one on the Monday Right I see. or whatever day of the week it is. Er let's have a look at what we're we're er the meetings here to discuss. First of all it's erm an opportunity for us to find out a bit more about each other. Right. You about the company erm whether it was Joe Bloggs or Rod sitting here who represents the company , and and yourself. Er fairly easy to determine what your background's been for the last twenty six years er and I have to say that's quite unusual these nowadays, particularly in financial services. So you're a survivor Trevor and I admire that in anybody. But what we're er er I've been through the changes. Oh yes of course I've been through the changes. I mean It's almost like changing jobs in fact. It is and I mean it gonna change again so I thought well this is the opportunity to have a change Yes. You know what I mean? Er I think twenty six years er they made it er they made it, you know. I mean er I pe I advise people on financial things Yes. so I see the opportunity to financial I guess erm with all the contacts you've made over the years you're still gonna have phone calls from people to say er what deal have you got for me this week or whatever? That's right I have. Yes. I've start How how are you going to cope with those? Aye? How will you cope with those? Just pass them on to some friend of yours or? Yeah yeah. Or still I'm already doing that or still do them in the evening? No no no. Right. You've got to have a licence now. Oh of course you have . and you see you're allowed to comment if you haven't got that licence now. So you've got to be Okay so it would be illegal for you to erm Comment. comment if I asked you for some advice? Yeah yeah.. So you can't see me is that it? You must you must only erm advise people on your product. Oh okay. Your product. Right I understand. Okay first of all er what we need you and I to decide is whether is a platform for you to continue to earn Right yeah yeah. erm some good money. And er once we've past that hurdle the other two are fairly easy. Er and the second one is which company we think, we, you and I think, that you'd feel most comfortable working within . Right yeah. Because here we have six companies. I have the luxury as a recruiter on this occasion to say when when Trevor walks through the door I can offer him a position er if all things being equal erm in any of those companies. Right. But there are certain companies I know that individuals will slot into. But I always like to hear er you know, what their opinion is. Right. The second thing er sorry that was the second thing. Er which company. And the third thing is when. Now erm reading er the back here it looks as though you are available like immediately. Correct. And that's what we do on the spot here today. Er we don't hide behind regret letters. So in other words you don't go out that door without a decision. No. Now that's a bit of a change for a recruiter to have to do that. Yes I've had one or two upset people go out of the door I must admit. They haven't nobody's hit me yet . But I will know fairly quickly if erm if their background is a bit iffy they have to really sell themselves to me. How in the last twenty six years do you feel that you've got on with people in general? In the job you were doing? Very well. Very well. I get on What what with all ty I get on with all types of people, that's why I think I like you know er I like people. Okay. I like people of all sorts. Right. I can mix with you know all sorts. High you know people of high station Good. or you know, or wherever. Have you got any preconceived ideas of people er who may work within those environments you've got there. Estate agents, medical practices, schools, golf clubs, area health authorities? Well the only pre precon preconceived idea I have is Mhm. erm most of the people that you probably meet will be in business. So you've got to present yourself on a business level. Yep. You know what I mean? Erm the danger is I think when I first started meeting people, right, you know Yes. In doing it. When I started meeting people, even previous to the job I was in, right? er you tend to get too too friendly and not keep it on a on a business basis like. Yes. You've just mentioned, you're absolutely right of course, Yes. everybody you meet except for individuals who work for those er types of companies will be business people. The only people the only er organizations to come into erm the products you see there who are not business people but they are linked, er are charities. Yes oh I see that yes. So they would be private individuals doing voluntary work. But in this financial services field of course in the main were you doing private No. finance? Or or No businesses as well. Businesses. Yes. Okay. A good mix or? Yes very very good mix yes yes. Right. In fact a lot of our you know a lot a lot of the their their the type of business I was in, right? they wanted the erm home service companies but I also branched out because I've always been connected. You'll see Company pension schemes? Yes company pension schemes and all that. So you have to er put your your presentation properly to those sort of people you know. Right. It's you it's no good going along and then saying to your er doing your presentation right when you get there. Right okay. You can do that in a private house. Yes. But you've got to your homework first. In in terms of going to a business yeah. I mean what else what what sort of size pension fund would you have been negotiating with a a business? Well er what ten ten Okay. So it's the smallest It's the smallest type of businesses yeah. Okay. We haven't really er when it got up to the bigger businesses we used to That came out of your hands? That came out of my hands. Did you get any credit for that? Financially? Er yes. Little little bit. Yes. Not as much As you thought you should have But it it you you got lost off after it goes over twenty. So when it gets over twenty then you've got to er pass it on to er a erm What somebody who's company pension scheme. You know. Okay. They they can set up a pension er Right okay. company pension scheme. But underneath that it's more It's more on an individual basis Yes. with the with the business taking the money out each month of their salary or? Yes. Okay. Or free pensions. All right? So you can have free pensions. So you can set up a scheme Do they still have non-contributory pension schemes around the country ? Yes yes they still Really? Yes. Oh. And the company pays for that. And of course you can transfer that now can't you? Yes yes. There's there's Now I lost out when I was It's changing drastically now and and erm er I mean I've kept up to date with it now Yes sure. I'm up to date and I can see it's going to change in the future really. Yes cos I when I was with B P for six years, a non-contributory pension scheme, I lost every you know You would've. Er And you can get your money out. Whereas now it's locked in. See it's locked in now. I've got a I've got a thirty two buyout with a company Yes that's right. You'll know what that is of course. Yes I do yeah. Good. Trevor how do you feel about what erm you've heard on the phone from Norman seen in the er brochure seen the products there listened to what erm I have to say about how we qualify people. Without me going into any other detail what do you think about if you'll fit in? Yes I'll You feel confident about it? Yes I feel confident yes. Erm because Telephone and you know. I'm used to Well that's I'm used to talking to peo you know talking to people and drawing people out. Because that's the answer it is. Well we certainly have to draw them out when when Especially over the phone. trying to tell them that they they must of course need in fact to spend two and a half thousand pound on a full page in a medical practice booklet er for two years, you've gotta be punchy on the phone haven't you Trevor? Yeah. I experienced the medical practice side, I went out for two or three assignments to to get a feel for it and it's doable. But it's only doable, I'm afraid that's an Americanism that's crept into our language, doable, erm only if you listen to the people who've been doing it. And all I what my my parting statement to most people, although I'll say it right now because I've started it , erm is that if you're prepared to listen to the advice given by the people who've been doing er selling advertising in these environments Yes. then you you you're on a winner. Yes. If you don't listen if you go back to old traditional styles or the style you are used to Yeah yeah. Because you know what they accuse us people in our fifties of not being able to do? Yes. Adapting for change. Adapting for change. Yes I think that's what they say. Erm if ever I say if ever get a fifty year old in front of me I say, Hey let's prove them wrong. It's er and I have to listen to people. I've been in traditional sales. Good. Okay Trevor well let's get that that that hurdle out of the way and say you and I agree that . Now you er in brief we've had a description. What environment do you think, trying to read my my mind, which do you think would be a comfortable area for you to be with? There are two or three in fact. I like the brochure. The I like brochures. I like You mean booklets or the Yeah these Okay. these and those over there. Okay. What about up in the corner there there's er Cos what we've launched into in the last er nine months very heavily er No I don't fancy the schools. You don't fancy the schools. No. Oh right. What what er as a matter of interest why? Because it's er you know more or less the same as estate agents in terms of look alike. Well erm I don't know. It's probably what you can talk about. You know what I mean? Right. Erm Well tell me what you think you can talk about or can't talk about in schools. Well er education I you know I'm not up on er Remem remember no remember what you're doing. Yes yeah. Remember. Remember what you're doing Yeah selling advertising space. Yes that's right yeah yeah . The only difference between all of those six companies Yes. is the environment you work in and the major benefit that you'll be putting over to the Yeah yeah. Okay. So nothing to do with whether you're educated No no. All right. All you're do you're sit sitting in an office, not as luxurious as this necessarily at some time, selling advertising to. Okay what, let's talk about the medical practice booklets. What do you think you'll be able to talk about there? That's one you pointed out right? Yeah yes. The medical booklet I mean I would I er I think I believe in that you see. I think you've got to believe in a product Okay. really to or in an area Right. to really sort of er I'm not closed. You know I'm not closed for any area because erm er I adapt I've adapted to change you know. I've adapted to change cos I wouldn't have stopped in in the job I was in. Oh absolutely yes. I wouldn't have stopped in the job I was in . Yes certainly the changes in the financial services arena has have have Oh well been been numerous haven't they? To what twenty six year ago it was just nonsensical you know . Yes. I mean when I started the job it wasn't the job Yes okay. It was just a mundane job. Just a mundane job yeah. But now it's it's highly professional which I've come through the stages Almost technical now I think. Yes yes technical. And you've got to know what you're talking about if not people will find holes straight away. Okay. All right well look I I you've er sort of selected and I I've got no problem with that although schools er I would have thought was ideal for as well as medical. . I wouldn't put you in estate agents. No. I'd be quite frank with you. Wouldn't you? No. Now now we've been doing this for twenty years and I've got a I've got a feel for I've I've got a feel for people who go in. Yes all right okay. Whereas the medical and schools I wouldn't have thought you'd have any problem with. All right. But you have a fee if if you're not happy with going into the schools environment I might as well suggest one that you would be happy with and that's medical. Shall we talk about those? Yes yeah. Okay what I have is a starter pack Right. sorry starter pack, it's an information pack. If you could draw closer er Trevor I need to show you some papers okay? Have to get that documentation out the way because I've a habit of of giving things back to people that I'm supposed to keep. This is for you to take all your you know bumph away. Now erm once again I'm relying on the information that Norman would have given you in describing how we go about setting the assignments up. Yeah right. And it's important for me to clear that side of it on the basis that you have no responsibility for setting the assignments up. You don't go round the country knocking on doors to get the assignments. That's our responsibility. Right. You literally get a phone call to say er we're coming to the end of this assignment here's your next one. Right. All right. And you just finish one go to another one. Right. Did that come across to you er in whatever we said or or done so far ? No no it didn't. No. All right. So you work on one assignment at a particular time? Yes you work You you don't go from er you you're not you haven't got like ongoing assignments three or four at the same time? No you have we ask you to concentrate on one. Right. All right? So if we if in Crooke where you live Yeah. you had er the Crooke surgery Yes that's right . You would work on that for two to three weeks and then we may send you to Chester-le-Street Yes that's right. er or a surgery in so Or Washington hospital? finish that whenever no no hospitals you don't go anywhere near hospitals. Do you not? No Oh I see No. It is purely the medical centre or medical surgery. Yeah. Okay? Now part of the er exercise which the marketing exec does when he or she round to the surgeries is to provide them with a certain amount of information of course. Yeah. They sign the contract to take our product for four years. Right. All right? We sell the advertising in the booklet every two years. Right. So the advertisers come in for two years. Right. Whatever we tell them on the phone is always per annum and we have to be. There's one contract we sign with the advertiser but it is always er any price you quote is per annum. Per annum right . See see how important it is to tell everybody everything Yes. on the phone. Excuse me. Hello. Oh fine. Okay thank you very much indeed thank you bye. Still working is it? Yeah well it's no well that sort of it is that pho that sort of phone call really have waited. Never mind. Fine. Erm yes it is still working amazingly. Right so let me make that clear again. Er we we have we just make sure that everything is told to the prospect on the phone. Right. So marketing department have signed them up. Er they leave them certain pieces of information er like this for instance and it's only er an example. There is a special one for the medical side. Right okay. They leave a list with that the surgery and say please will you compile a list of businesses Right. business contacts that you're happy for us to approach. Right. Now the important thing about this document is that you'll receive it on the day the first day of your assignment. Right. And the temptation is to look at that list and say wonderful I can start phoning prospects that the doctors have already lined up for me. Mm yeah. Wrong. Right yeah. You sit down with whomever Homework sort of your contact is Yeah. at the surgery. Remember their contact demands that they provide you with an office desk and telephone facility for three weeks Right. while you do the assignment, or at least up to three week. Yes. And it's important to get as much information as you possibly can Right. about those businesses. Right yes. All right. Because if you just picked up the phone and and er contacted erm a residential home Yes. they would say, Well who's this doctor that you what what is this surgery That's right. Er it could be that it's just a contact Hello. Yep. Er just a sec just had eleven o'clock as well so. Okay yep thanks very much bye. And er so it's important to get information about those interview calls. Right. All right? Now erm That's the that's erm person who's going to advertise in the actual brochure? Well these these these businesses are recommendations. Yeah that's great . Now if the doctors So say for instance there the doctors recommended er a newsagent well a newsagent Well chemist. They're likely to be medically related in the main. Well do oh I see. But it could be the local newsagent where they get all their Yeah. doctor medical er documents from er medical journals from. Yes that's right. Erm yes. It is unlikely but I have seen er er one or two advertised in the er but but they will they are unlikely to put that on their list because they wouldn't think about it. No I see. They they will prejudge Yes. who they think will go in. I see yeah. and so will you probably. Yeah. And the important thing is to Oh yeah well I don't do that. Well Don't do that. what I'm suggesting don't fall into that category. even people who've sold advertising space Yeah yeah. who've sat opposite me Yeah. er would say, Well surely they wouldn't go. Well I'll show I'll show you this is just a small list of categories of advertisers and you would not even start to think about some of those. These are for estate agents Yes that's right yeah. If I asked if I asked you to compile a list of advertisers of companies and businesses who you think will advertise in a medical practice booklet you may you may list out twenty five. Yeah. At the latest count it was at least a hundred and fifty. Yeah yeah that's right. Okay? So anybody The market's wide. anybody is worth go having a go for. The market's wide. Yeah. However, that's a document that will certainly start you er you know start the ball rolling. Yeah. When you arrive at the assignment there are a number of documents inside the envelope waiting for you. We do not send information to your home. It always goes to the practice manager. Cos that's another way of telling Right. erm the surgery that you're on the way. Right. But it does include that document. There are one or two others but I just bring that along as a. That tells the surgery and and the staff there exactly why you're there. Right. What you're doing. It might not be obvious to everybody you see. No that's right. That keeps them happy that er Yes and it's another demonstration of the professionalism which we're er rather well known for. Okay. Here for you to take away are a couple examples. Right. All right. And I'm just want to draw your attention very quickly and I will emphasize that a lot of the information you're hearing from me are in a brief sense, will be more than adequately covered when Yeah. you get to a training to the training school. They er there are just three sizes of ads that we have to Right. worry about here and there's an example of each each one of them. Full page. Full page half and a quarter. We used to split the quarter into eight but we we it was too fiddly. Right. For the amount of er money that er people were going to pay. And because we've got three sizes we've got in effect three prices. Which is another thing that you you know it makes life easy. Yeah. Except that we can on a full page sell up because there are a couple of premium slots like the one you see there inside Yeah. front cover. Yeah. If you can home in on the fact that a full page is one thousand pounds per year for two years then it locks in. Right yeah. Because if you er start thinking erm three hundred and ninety for a quarter page and move up Yeah. then you've lost the opportunity for a full page Yeah that's right. if you can sell that. Let me just show you a give you Works the same with the insurance business. I'm sure it does. Yeah. You start at the top You'll always you always start at the top. That's tru that's the only part may be of traditional sales that you Yeah. Okay. It's no good starting at the bottom and going up because then you've lost the the punch haven't you. Absolutely. You've lost the punch. Yes yeah. You've lo lost all the opportunities to make yourself a bit more money which is what we're talking about here. When our marketing er executive goes round to the surgery one of the one of the things erm he he or she will determine with the with the practice is the number of booklets we're going to print. Right. And the way that's determined is er they have to declare the number of patients they have registered. Right. All right? Now if it's a fifteen thousand patient list all right? Yeah. that represents in some way erm about three to one. Yeah. So we home in on five thousand booklets. Right. Right. Now five thousand booklets internally will create a target of eight thousand pounds for that assignment. Right I see. Because that's a large practice. Fifteen thousand patients. If you if you look at these scales here Yeah. you can see Yes. what the relationship between the Yes. and the Right. Okay? Now that target internally is is a figure for us to be working on back at the camp. Right. It will be identified on the documentation you receive on your day one. Right. However what we don't want er our consultants to get in paranoid about if they don't get that target. If they don't there is a cutoff point at which we know all our production costs all our er administration costs and all commissions we we will have covered. Right. All right? But only internally do we know that. You won't nor would I . No. I've been out there and I still didn't know what erm but they will er if if you're struggling on any assignment they will not let you struggle for day in day out. They will say are you are you sure you've got as much as you possibly can Yeah. fine come on out. That means Yeah. that we've probably got enough money f to print. Yeah that's right. So that's just for your per your personal pride I suppose is to try and get that because Yeah. somebody's put a target for you on it. Right. Very achievable in this area. Yeah. Now I'd like you to home in in relationship to whatever target you've got there erm you can relate or you needn't, but that five thousand pound is the start point for fifteen percent bonuses. There's a small one in between but I always home in on that one there. Right. If you sell er whatever you sell above five thousand pound advertising sales Yes. you will get fifteen percent extra on. Right. So if you sold six thousand pounds Yeah. right? you would get another fifteen percent on top of your five hundred pounds. Right. Whatever you got for that. Okay? So you're entitled to bonuses. They will work out you know they they on on the training course they will show you more examples of that. I'd like to point out that all erm bonuses are paid at proof stage. All right? And I'll explain why in a minute. Right. Okay but if you can remember that. There the prices and you'll see that a full page is a thou well I'll tell you a full page is a thousand pound but we have two premium slots which we charge more for. That inside front cover costs twelve hundred pound. Right. If it was anywhere else in the book other than page two it would cost a thousand. Right. Inside front and back cover is twelve hundred pound that's Yeah. inside the back cover. Yeah. Page two the next one in from here Yeah. is eleven hundred Right. and any any other position Is a thousand. is a thousand. I see. Now So you think that that's the most prominent er positions Oh it oh it is in any magazine Yeah. It's the first two and the back . We have er us humans have a habit of looking where we yeah I see. And it's one of those things. It it's an acknowledged in in all advertising not just . Let me er just oh incidentally you're allowed to have ten pou er ten percent on the spot discount if you need it. Right. Now if you're if somebody becomes a persistent discounter first of all they'll they'll question it back at head office. Yeah. Secondly you'll be creating a bit of inconveniencing to the person who comes back er back in two year's time to resell. Yeah. Because they will always want the same price that Yeah. er unless you can persuade them of course costs have gone up. There are a couple of examples of how we make up erm the earnings. If you sold to the target on a on a revenue there of a two and a half thousand, which is one of the smaller surgeries, we will pay thirty percent on all of that right? Mm. So that represents that amount there. Right. If there's a small bonus then which in fact pays the petrol for the assignment probably, er providing the Government don't put another twenty P on a litre or gallon or whatever. Erm there's a small one there which will help towards costs. However it's the bigger one that we we always home in on. Yeah. So if you just sold to that at a small surgery that's what your earnings would be. Right. And quite honestly that would be achieved in two weeks probably. We would hope. If you've got a bigger surgery which may break into that third week Yea. then you can see that you'll start earning substantially more. Yes. Because of the bonuses. So after the person's initially contacted the person we go into their surgery right? Yeah. And it's up to us to negotiate what the potential amount they want. No. To No it's no no. All all you have to worry about is selling the advertising. Right. Don't think about anything else any other responsibility. Right okay. That's done. You don't negotiate who much that's done by the marketing group. Right okay. These these these er targets would be identified on the er on the documents you get Right. of your assignment. Okay? Yes. Right. Now I'll let you take that you can take that away obviously to to study. That's it right. We'll pay all those commissions and bonuses Right. providing you do one or two small bits of administration for us. Right. And we really have kept this down a barest minimum. Yeah. Cos we know sales people generally don't like paperwork but I know in financial circles you will have had to have done Doesn't mean doesn't worry me . No. Doesn't worry me cos it No if it's the one thing I know that I don't have to concern myself with as far as financial services is . concerned is the small amount of paperwork all right. And we have to we always read the small print as well. We're always saying to us what's this down here. All right. What I why I was emphasizing earlier on how important it is to get all this over on the telephone. You must if if you're scared if you have any doubts about putting the price of that over the phone then forget doing this. Because in advertising it'll all be done. Yeah. Except when you're negotiating multimillion companies . D'ya is it is it advisable over the phone then to mention the price first or is it better to go into the to the er to the er There's a lot of reaction description description of what they're gonna put in Yeah. first Yes. to get the cement job and then sort of say to the Yeah. Certainly you would er the other aspect you don't even mention your the company's name. You will only ever say that you are Yeah. er working with the Crooke surgery to bring together their their new practice booklet or to erm Yes that's right. re resell their new practice booklet. Erm the doctors who've identified you as as a company they would be very happy to see er supporting this venture and er I've I've I'm cont contacting you with a view of of outlining what we do Yeah. it's advertising er it's er de da. But they'll teach you that on the er Yes yes that's right. on the training course or guide you through it on the training course. The important thing is that there is a lot of preamble because the guy's bound to say erm and even if he doesn't ask you what the price is you must make sure he knows. Yes yes. See that's against traditional sales techniques. In effect. Yes that's right . It is really. Yes yes. You know if the guy doesn't ask the ask the price fine. Yeah. Let's get all the get the sound, now will you buy this and this is the price you can't do it with advertising. No right. And I'll show you two or three things on on this contract which will if you presented to them face to face during the during the discussions they would they would use it as an excuse to say, You didn't tell me that I don't want to do it. Right. All right? Right. And I'll show you Yeah. This incidentally is a contract which is the same for all of our companies. Right okay then. Unless you're colour blind you can see all the different colours Yeah yes there . That's right yeah. And in the red is the most important bit is it? These these will be explained Yes yes. in more to you That's the piece we've got to tell the customer I can see that I can see that. All right. It is It reads forms you know we read forms that way cos normally Yeah well they wouldn't be in a different colour if they weren't vital to us . No that's right. Yeah. And and these are the things that they will, one or two of the things, they'll use any excuse under the sun, but these are the things if you don't point them out to them. Er first of all you will tell them that we want a contract. Yeah. You must tell them on the phone after telling them the price and what it's all about you say, Right when I come round tomorr er whenever to er strike up the deal with you I want the contract signed I need a thirty five percent of the first year's payment as a deposit cheque. Right yes right okay. Okay? If you notice the significant of that significance of that figure it covers your commission cos that's what we pay. Right. If we we pay thirty percent as you Yes. know for all assignments up to a hundred miles away from home. Thirty five percent if it's further away. Right. All right? And we we make sure we cover ourselves. That's why we can pay you all commissions the following week. Right. Okay? You must tell them that the balance of the first year's payment will be taken out through a banker's order. Right. Now if you don't tell them that on the phone they'll use the banker's order, ah now you didn't tell me Trevor that I had to sign a banker's order isn't er Cos some people are frightened er er Oh sure yeah er er they don't want to do that. It's a commitment you see. Yes that's right. See how important it is? And the other thing is that the second year's payment is taken out a year's later through the same banker's order. In fact that's a sales pitch. Now you don't have to pay for all this up front we take in stages. Right yeah. That's Can can come it can come against your business expenses Mm or the or up against the practice you see. This is Yes yeah they can this is where they can claim it isn't it you know. Yes I mean advertising is Yes. claimable you can get your V A T back er That's right. certainly. We need a signature one signature on unless of course the company says that two people have got to sign it but you have to find that out. Yes. If two people have got to sign the cheque two people have got to sign the banker's order. All Mm. these things unless you tell them Yeah. they'll say, Now there's two people on a cheque Yeah. oh is the other guy here? No he's away on holiday for a week or two weeks so that's blown the whole thing. If you and you you've chased your tail. Yeah. It's unlikely that the guy can even come in because he's partner's away for two to three weeks holiday Yeah. and your deadline. See how important it is? And they will outline on the course a a number of other things of course that they'll blow you out for. So there are three things we want from er to er for a complete deal. That's one and then the cheque is one of them. Right. The other of course we have to know what they want in the we want to know what they want in their ad. Yes. Now in the main they've all all our advertisers have advertised somewhere. Either Right. Yellow Pages or some of the local journals or whatever and will have a copy in existence which we can use. Right. But once again on the phone you have to tell them that's what you want to discuss when you come round. Right. Contract cheque banker's order, have you got any copy mister advertiser, yes fine we will be happy to accept that if it's er suitable for you. Er What happens if he says well I want to alter it a little bit? Okay fine no problem no cost. So in other words he comes round and he says I I don't want that there I want a little bit put there Er telephone number's changed and I want Yes. I want er that I want up there. Or this is out now I'm not That's right. doing that Absolutely. and I'm I'm yeah and I'm I've got a new mob er a new We can do all this. Right okay yeah yeah . We can we can er take photographs. And you do that on the computer do you? Yeah that's Yes yeah yeah you rearrange it. Well in fact it's a bit more sophisticated than that. We can do all anything they want and it's free of charge. It's all included in the cost of the ad. Even if there no ad exists, and I've had one or two where there's been no ad Yeah. they're advertising for the first time or the last ad Or you can have a copy of somebody else's do you? Er oh we've got thousands to show people if if you need them . That's what I'm saying yeah yeah. Certainly you'll have a series So if somebody'll say well I like that one for my par particular business you know Yes. with the houses on or something like that yeah That's right. No problem. Oh no we've got plenty of designs. Twenty years of doing ads we're be able to have a few. This space down here, if if the copy exists you just attach it. Yeah. It says er I think it says copy attached somewhere. Yeah that's it. Copy there. If nothing er exists we we just tick that box we compose and you'll have notes down here Right. They will tell you on the training course how to do that. If it's copy to come it's a pity because you know that's that's not a complete deal. Yeah you haven't cemented the er I never sent any of those in. No no. I waited until the end of the week and said well erm you know. I I would even take I have to say I would even take a erm An existing one. an existing one. Cost otherwise otherwise it's er it messes up your commission thing. That's that's the things we want er Right. Trevor and then if you've got all those bits and pieces together send them in at the end of the week using this commission claim form. Right. All right? Every sales consultant has his or her own unique number. Right. So does every assignment. Yeah. We just put down the size of the ad the advertiser the practice the town. What I've just described there a f is a full and complete contract and you tick down there. Now there are some organizations that have negotiated with that do not that do not need the banker's order and the cheque. And that is a typical one BUPA hospitals. Right. But there's a list in the training manual which you take away. You just have to have an official order So would it be feasible then one two three four five six, would it be feasible that er you'll have had six assignments to have done that week? Er no. One assignment six advertisers you mean? Oh six advertisers I see. Yeah that's one only you're only con remember you're only doing one assignment. Right. Okay? That's the assignment you're working on Right. and those are the six advert this is one of my own commission claim forms . Yeah that's right. I had six I had five advertisers go in. Right. Those will all be represented by the five complete deals contracts and everything, all right? Going in different books. Mm? No no no one book. Home in Oh I see oh I see. I see yes. Yes. That's only you're only working on one one book at one time. Erm and erm and then obviously that's something round in the region of what we're looking for. Right. I I mentioned earlier on that bonuses are paid at proof stage. Yes. All right? Now that is the next stage at which we get money from the the client. Right. Remember we've got the thirty five percent deposit cheque Yes. we've got the banker's order Yeah. so when the when the proof lands on his desk of his ad for authorization we're taking the balance out Right. for the first year. Yeah. That's when you can claim your bonuses on that assignment. Right. All right? Every two months a list of assignments which have been proofed completed Yeah. that you are entitled to claim bonus on, if you are entitled, will be sent to the sales execs. Right. All you have to do is look down for the B numbers, now Mm that's one of mine from your personal records and you can claim your bonus. Right. There are two reasons why we we say it must be claimed. One they'll never be know precisely the date that they're being proofed No. All right? And secondly a lot of er a number of consultants want to leave their bonuses in to accrue during the year. Take out Oh I see. in one lump sum. Right. It's not forfeited if you don't claim it. You're you're entitled to claim it as soon as you're entitled to er as soon as it's been proofed. Right. But it's up to you. Yeah. All right? So you we won't pay it automatically and if you don't claim it and you've missed it that's I'm afraid hard luck. Right. But let me tell you your personal records will show exactly how much you're due to have paid. Right. Okay? Right. Any questions so far? No no. You've got it fixed in your mind you're only doing one assignment you know. Yeah yeah. These advertisers are just going in one book. Right right right. Okay? Right. Right you know if you've got any questions now er this is the stage at which we agree on a date for you to start. No. No questions. No questions . Well certainly my job is to just outline briefly what we do. Yeah. Erm when you get to the training course Yeah. you'll have a lot more opportunity to see what goes on. Right. All right. And er the trainer on medical practices has been out there for a long long time doing this so there's a lot a wealth of experience there. Okay well on your application form you said there's no reason why you can't start straight away. And can I just explain how we go about the course. Right. First of all it's fully expensed by us. We pay your expenses Right. there and back and the hotel while you're in all right. Right. Er medical practices er which is the company, erm do it slightly different than other er the other companies in for training. They send their prospective consultants out for two days before they come into head office for the three day training. Right. So you're first erm port of call will be with er a trainer Right. for two days on the Thursday and Friday. Right. So we're talking about a start date of next Thursday. Yes. Is that all right with you? Any problems? Well er I'd like I'd still like time to er think about it you know. Think about it. Erm well as I said to you today one of the things that you know Yes. ninety nine out of a hundred people go out there and they they've we've fixed a date to start and then Yeah. what er if you have to think about it what's your doubts? Pardon? What are you're dou if you've got to think about it you may there are obviously some questions in your mind. Are you going for other interviews for instance? Yes. Okay. What's in salaried jobs? Er well into financial services. You know what I mean but erm Oh are you? Yes yes. Going back you know I'm looking Well okay well look I I now I need a commitment. So what what do you think what do you think about this about this thing? Is it for you or not? I don't thing it's for me. I don't think it's for me . Okay. I don't think it is for me. Right. Okay well er er that's the decision we make today so what what why do you think it's not for you. As a matter of interest. You made that decision that's fine with me okay. Er erm er you're on commission only is that right? Oh absolutely. Yes so you're you're are you self employed Yes. under that? Yeah but surely sorry I I have to why do you question that now? That has to have been explained to you on the phone. It must have been. Yes. Er it was explained to me on the phone. Okay. Er so you put your own stamp on Yeah yeah you're self employed Yes yes. Weren't you self employed before in financial services? No Right. No I've been on salary. Okay. I've been on salary you know. Okay. Erm I have been on commission basis. Yes sure. Right. Er I have been on commission basis. Erm and erm I like the idea of erm you know basics you know basics . Why? It's only commission in another form. Oh yes that's correct. Well makes you lazy. Oh it doesn't. Well it doesn't make me get lazy . Well let me tell you er er this this'll this'll make you hungry and you'll earn a darn sight more money without a basic. Anyway I think you've made up your mind there er Yes that's right. But but you say you prefer a basic. Well I I prefer to be employed right rather than Okay well even if I've got to start from commission only Trevor with respect you've just wasted a hell of a lot of time for you and me haven't you? Cos Well not really. Not really Cos it's cost it's been I phoned up and I got phone up to ask for the information right? I was But you I was keen on the brochure. I had a look through and I thought well I want to go and But it's self employed and you didn't want to be self employed by what you've just told me. Er Mm? Not really not at this particular stage you know what I mean? Well if you're able to get a salaried position at fifty three in financial services I would suggest you know good luck to you fine. Okay Trevor well I mean I've already been offered well three or four jobs already like. Well okay. I've already been offered three or four jobs with salary like you know. Well why didn't you take them? Right. Erm because Because this is self employed . Because it isn't with you see. Right erm today with I don't quite understand your rationale here. Well you don't all. You see with the financial services act er financial services they can offer you a job right Mhm. but you you can't they can't they can offer you that job right but it's qua you have to qualify yourself by going for training. Right. Okay. Same way with you. Okay. If you go for the training right and you're no good at the training Mhm. you know you turn out to be you know Right. Er no good er the same way with the financial services act. They cannot start anybody immediately Oh fine. okay. Exactly the same as what you can't do. Yes yeah. you can't start them off straight away right? Well we once your training's done you'll get an assignment on the medical That's right yeah practice side But you can't go out tomorrow, I couldn't out tomorrow and start doing it . Oh no because you wouldn't That's right. you wouldn't be able to do it. That's right . It's as simple as that. Yeah. Well it's that same with You would not be good enough. It's the same with every com you know it's the same with the erm interviews I've been to before right you know what I mean? Mm. They have a training course now of Oh yes sure. of a fortnight. See Oh well yes. Well see they've got it to for a fortnight which you don't get paid. You know what I mean? No no. You don't get paid. Well I'll tell you what I I you know seriously er with what Norman would have told you on the phone self employed commission only erm if you er I I'm surprised you came to see us. Yeah. I really am Yeah. because er erm it it you know it's erm if if you made up your mind you you if you've had offers of salary I don't know why you're not taking them. Erm you'll not earn as much money with us. Er er with er with them as you will with us but er I don't think er I don't think I'll earn more money I don't think you will. Well. No there's more money in advertising. Do you think so? Yes. I mean er some of our chaps are earning thousand pound plus a week no trouble at all. Thousand pound a week. Oh sure. That is that is that's becoming n almost the norm now whereas mister average used to be Yeah. eight fifty. Yeah. S eight hundred to eight fifty. Oh there was an example of of my Yeah yeah. Okay Trevor well that's er that's the end of the story. Right. Erm Okay. Okay. D'ya want your application form back? Er no no it's all right. Okay. That's all right. Right. Well good luck on on all these offers Yes. you've been getting. Yes that's all right. Especially at your age. Yes. That's right. I was amazed myself. I mean I was only Oh I should I should finished Yeah I should be very grateful . Well I was only finished er last erm er when was it week on Friday. I was only finished a week on Friday you see. Well er I didn't realize it was. I've only just been looking for since then. Well good luck to you because er you know I can tell you right now we are one of the few companies that take on people in their fifties. Yeah that's right. And er we launched er some we're not Yeah yeah. Come in. Hi. Hello. what can I do for you today? Well I still haven't received any word from the the about my back. I was From February, end of February. Well should this time. I'll get on to them and find out what's happened. Right there I've checked it for you. . Now are you due a Erm line today? Yes. You're due a line. I just thought I would have heard something by now. I would have thought so. I would have thought so. What about pain killers and Well I was just going to say, er I don't have enough to last me four weeks, but will I just wait until I No I'll get you some more just now. just now. Er Mm. Still the . I was on that, I mean I've not been taking them all the time, I've really only been taking them when I feel it . When you need them. Mhm. . I take I mean I can take them but I'm not too fond of taking tablets If you can avoid it, no? It's better without them. number thirty two. And I'll get on to the and we'll get them an appointment out to you as quick as we can. Because you should have you should have heard by this time. Aye. There we go. keep you out of mischief for a wee while. Yeah. Oh. . It's all wishful thinking. All Yes wishful thinking. Right , cheerio now . Thanks Dr Right, any comments, then on on this No, I thought it was alright. Thank you. Yeah, that's fine. Yes, works quite well. I thought it was quite funny as well. Er, do you think the language is actually the language that would use. Yeah. I I've used, in my script I've used a very loose language, like er, very, er, well, non-standard English then, because they now,erm, you know,especially after having it banned. my experience. So do you think this is loose enough, though. Yeah, this is fine. you know, I think there's erm room for like, people being able to make up bits as well. Yeah. Not like,you're not, it's not the way they s , like, phrase it,put a sentence together. No. As the way they're saying To be quite honest man, I've never really, never really did see a problem. If they're gonna be that type of band, they're not gonna be, thinking as how they pronounce a sentence. Is that How they've portrayed a excellent It's like in in in in in interviews as well, like you don't,som some people do but, if somebody asks you a question, you just try and answer it, you don't really think about, erm, the way you construct everything. No. Isn't this No. A lot of these people English. Yeah but. Isn't this isn't this language a bit stereotypical of the band? It doesn't really matter who that is. I feel like It's true but If they, if they can't speak properly, they haven't got much chance of writing a song. I mean some lyrics are pretty inane, aren't they. Yeah. It's I think they're clever. Well, they're clever in one respect, but they're not necessarily clever with words. Yeah, well some of, some people can't really er, communicate, can't converse with er, people in normal conversation, but, er, when it comes to writing stuff down, you know, they can be very good. Or they can converse in a sense that they can get a chord progression or a melody together that actually works, and says something, irregardless of the words. Exactly. The words are often the last thing that, or sometimes the last thing that people actually write. And this, I mean, this isn't meant to be a good band anyway, is it? Is that The fact that they can't communicate, or they don't speak, or whatever, is something to do with. I suppose Yeah, but just because they're a rubbish band, doesn't mean that they can't communicate, and that's sort of the image that we're portraying here. Or isn't that bit s s stereotypical. So, so what. What's the matter with words I don't know, I just think, I just think What's the problem. No, there's no problem, I'm just like, saying that, they sound really thick, they're rubbish at being in a band, and it's just all so down-hill for them from the beginning, really, they didn't really have a chance, did they. Exactly. Exactly. gotta have high hopes to start with. Yeah. But they don't that. have high hopes. Yeah, but they they just are are, they're just rubbish. You know, they just, they they just not fated to be in a band, at all. No. Have you seen the Graham Taylor documentary? He had to bring football into it didn't he? Well, it's it's not exactly football it's just like a tragic downful slide, isn't it. Er, I just think that th the the language is a bit too, sort of, proper, and that, you know, they have, you know. He couldn't play the drums, he was too loud, that sounds too formal you know, say, he was crap at the drums, couldn't they, Yeah. or, what would they say these days about you know the drum. I mean, in in, sort of colloquial language,wh what would they say. I think, you'd be surprised here, I do, with how the bands speak at like, especially on a rockumentary on T V. Yeah. you wouldn't think that they were a band like, you can tell they were on drugs, some of them. Yeah. The way they speak, you wouldn't. So their language isn't basic. No, it just terrible, no. You know, there's ever hardly ever any swearing They're probably not allowed to show it, are they. Exactly, they're not, they wan they're being interviewed for television, they can't be probably their normal selves, can they. Well, that's what this is, isn't it. Exactly, same as All ages. Yeah well of course. Famous people, you'd be surprised, people just erm, switch into a different like, mode, when they're being erm, filmed for, you know, cameras and everything. Or recorded. Exactly. So the they got to erm, watch everything they say. Do you reckon that er, word at the top there,incon incompatibility Is that is that the kind of word that you would use about er That would be used by the interviewer. Would there be an official reason. What. Are there usually official reasons Well, I heard a lot of peoples Got bored with being together. Sorry. They become bored with being together. They just,if they, if they don't get on, give up Exactly, they're incompatible. Mm. Yeah. This is, whether it's the word they'd use, or whether Yeah, but they wouldn't use it, their manager or something like that, would say Their agent. Their agent, yeah. Not that they'd have one but Yeah, well they might have one So, so possibly that ough ought to say,the their agent described it as Yeah. the reason as being incompatibility. That, you know,th that puts it more in the context, doesn't it. Mm. It's what we mean by the official reason, it it's the P R person. Yeah, yeah, it's the reason we give to the paper, or whatever. Yeah. The local paper. It was in the press release, you know. That kind of thing. Probably wouldn't have really mattered why they split up if they were that rubbish to start with. Yeah, well they're making a big deal out of it aren't they? if their first gig was Hopeless, or rubbish as to put it, yeah. Who would really, who would really mind. Well, if you're doing a erm, a rockumentary about them, somebody must mind, mustn't they. Yeah, you've got to have a reason for that. But if you, if we're doing a rockumentary about the whole got to cover for whole, whole scene. We've got to do, how they started, whatever. You can't just leave it open at the end. Some somebody must be interested, otherwise we wouldn't be doing this theoretically. I mean, sometimes a band can be so bad, but they're really interesting, cos they're so bad. Does that make Yeah. I mean, you look at the Sex Pistols, for example. I mean they were pretty awful weren't they in any sort of, musical sense, but they were so outrageous outrageously bad in some respects as well. a good guitar player though in the Sex Pistols. Ah. I know when he played, he used to play it with his fists, but erm, Nice day. It is a nice day, actually. quite fresh. Yeah. So let's, let's just talk about, we've had a look at this one, basically we're we're sort of happy enough with this, aren't we. Yeah. Gonna see how,per haps perhaps fits in with the other erm bits, so who's starting off, you're starting off aren't you? I'm starting off, yes. So tell us, tell us what happens. Well. Just have a quick, sort of chat about where we're going, whether it's you know, whether Well, in the beginning, erm, this is an interview before they start rehearsing one evening, or like, what they each other play, and they're just talking about how they met and everything, cos they, the vocalist and the guitarist met in a chip shop, and knocked all the chips everywhere, and then he er, the guitarist talks about, erm, he met, I mean, he knows a drummer that's free and it turns out that it's the vo vocalist's vocalist's brother. Although she didn't know he played the drums at all, No. she just like thought he was, being a carpenter or something, and this brother, erm, her brother didn't know that she sung at all, so it all turns out to be a big surprise. Loads of coincidences. Yes. I think that's, that's pretty consistent, probably with how bands are formed, actually, isn't it, its friends of friends, and somebody knows somebody else, and somebody's looking round for a drummer, just happens that somebody mentions it to somebody else. Tends to happen that way, doesn't it. Yeah. They just grabbed this bloke who's standing outside the music area, thinking he might be a musician and he isn't, but it doesn't matter. Yeah. That's it really, and they just tell them how they meet and everything. And which character's that. Or are they just a crowd. Oh, that's the bassist So is that, er, I mean, in the in the characterisation we've got, is is there particular personalities coming through here, because I think that's one of the other things we need to make sure in the script, that we've got a consistent view of certain personalities. The thing is because, yeah, but because we're all doing different scripts That's right. We're portra , we're doing our own personalities for Yeah. each character, so I know. they're bound to differ. But they've got to have to be consistent, Yeah. cos that's how, that's why we've got to ultimately look at all the scripts, and sort of, Yes. change them, to make them all consistent. Tie them all in. Yeah, I mean, Joe's starting it off, so, have you got a particular personalities for the characters. Who's the sort of ringleader here? I mean, Yeah yeah well I think er,th the vocalist is one of, one of the main people, she's very su sure, you know, of her ability, you know, despite, you know, actual, or reality anyway Yeah. Erm, the gui the guitarist is very erm erm, how can I put it, erm Arrogant? Arrogant, yes, yes. Did you just say Has got to be, like, the leader? Yeah. Well in this I've got her as the, dim twit. Oh, no, that's, that's the drummer, that's the drummer. Actual of the band. I've got her as. Well, the drummer's pretty erm, Yeah. stupid really. The drummer's th the very stupid one, and the bassist basically can't be bothered at all, you know . As long as that's like, is the bassist James or Yes. Ken, Ken's the guitarist. Ken's the cocky one. Yeah. The bassist just can't be bothered. And the drummer takes everything personally, he's very er, but takes like fits and can't really see what's going on. Well, this , would he take it all personally? Erm, he well he He doesn't really understand, that's why He he doesn't understand, it's all going over his head. Doesn't really care. Okay, so that's the first scene, and then we move to to Number three. three. I think. Demo isn't it. No, it's the Rock Gala, isn't it. Yeah, recording demo's number two. Yeah, recording demo Recording demo. Okay, let's see what, see what Right, we've got they go over to the studios and start recording. Three of the group members turn up, but one was late. Okay, and that one happens to be Ethel Bethel. That's yeah, that's consistent, I think, vocalists is are are always late. Every every time. Right, so she gets a phone call. She wanders off to the studio,erm, a room in a house, her mum and dad's house, to answer the phone. Yeah, cos she she could say she's doing her hair, she did coming, I mean, she's doing her hair, or something like that, or is that terribly sexist? But it is erm, erm, if anybody wants, one of the other band members could be doing their hair. Yeah, well that's true. Yeah. Yeah, anyway, she she's told to get a move on. She gets moving, gets there she arrives fifteen minutes late. It's time, they get to start recording, but they're missing the lyrics, so she can't sing. That's because Ken forgot to photo photocopy the lyrics and they're at his house, with some other stuff and they discussed what happened on T V last night, but Ethel starts to get really annoyed, seeing as she was the one turning up late,and like, she was on about, we're paying a lot of money for this studio, let's use it. Yeah, that's true. But she turned up late to start off with. Yeah, then they'll all have a go at her. What do you mean, you turned up fifteen minutes late. Yeah, then have a big argument, then. Stand up fall ou fall out, not getting anything done at all. Well, that's basically it, there. So are they all gonna fall out, at the end, and not get anything done. No, it's it's going to the end of the interview. can't we have some violence See the thing is, Ethel, she's gonna, get romantically involved with Ken with Oh no. I think, I think that's not the necessary one. It's not the drummer Bit of a twist in the story line, isn't it. Big, yes, a big twist. Okay, so they've just done their demo, but then are they gonna take demo to Yeah,organising the rock gala. To you, to you. Rock gala, to me, yeah. Which is a bloody good thing, really that I started off with the tape,hands Cos I was originally gonna let them do an audition for you, but I thought, na. No, I think tape, tape sounds like a good idea. Erm, erm, they go to see, they, first of all it starts with them looking at a notice board with the notice on it. Then they continue, they hand you the tape, you ask them a few questions, like what the band's called, how long you've been working together, and bla bla bla, and then erm, I think I I'm actually doing it with Kent and James and they're not thick. No, oh, no, they're not But, they're not, I don't have them down as thick, but they No, no. is Yeah. Mm, right, okay, that's alright then. And then erm, erm, I've lost my thread now Yeah James and Kent Yeah. Yeah, right, and then erm, Kent or one of them is talking to you giving them your address,an no, giving them their address. Yeah. And so that you could send them the information about it all, and then James is just talking into the camera, saying, oh I'm really glad that this is happening, the band's gonna be really happy, finally we're on our way, bla bla,and then it ends. Yeah, but I was thinking of Oh no, then it goes to the rehearsals, that's the bit of the script I haven't done. Yeah. It shows a few rehearsals as well. That's quite good. Yes, yeah. I think you'd have a er er scene of, you know, Jonathan listening to the demo in his office and That's an idea actually, yeah. Yeah. So that's afterwards, yeah, That's afterwards, yeah So so wouldn't one normally, if they were that bad, refuse them. No. No, you can just look into the camera and say, erm, Yeah. Give 'em a chance. That's not fair, that's not fair. Mm. No names mentioned. No, it's not so, so, how do I get everything out then, if nothing is Aw, it's like you said only got two other bands. it's exactly what you need, though They can go on first sort of warm up band and that'll put everybody else in context. Exactly, make everybody else look good. Right, so the then we got the the gig. Yeah, which John was doing. Yeah. Yeah, he's talking about, he's doing a rockumentary type thing with clips of the gig, that sort of thing. Should be interesting. Erm in fact we, can we have a rock gala this term, perhaps we can fill them, fill them with imaginary er, gig. And who, who are these characters gonna be, anyway. I mean, what have we, what have we done so far, and then think about actually creating this group. Well, I'll be the drummer. I'm gonna be the drummer, and Right. I'll be the director. okay We did say, that that if possible we shouldn't be, actually in it. But for the sake, I think we have to make an exception, perhaps in Joe's case, because he actually is a musician as well. Was there any scenes with all all the characters in, because that, I mean, you're isn't it. Mm. really, the other three people can be filming it. Exactly. I mean, it would make it easier from the point of rehearsing. Yeah, I mean Yeah well I know but it's nice. Mm. Yeah, but if we're in it, who's gonna film it? Exactly. it it does need I could have drummed in from outside. Right, to play Well, I dunno he could be erm, Bass guitar. He could be either the bass guitar, or the Cos he plays a bit of guitar, Yeah. so we really want him not to play, case, of being not familiar with Well, exactly. That would be quite good. Yeah. And then we need a guitarist. Well,could be the guitarist John would look good as the guitarist. Mm? John would look good as a guitarist, wouldn't he. Yeah, he does play a little bit. Yeah, that'll do, yeah, that'll be alright, then. And then we need, erm, Ethel. Ethel Bethel. Yeah,can be it. Yeah, but George can sing. No I can't. Yeah, but not this sort of stuff. So, how's that gonna work then, if if we need people to film and things, cos I'm not gonna film it for you. Well, I I I've well Well, not in every scene is there, all the characters anyway. sort of take turns in doing it. Exactly, apart from, apart from the play, the actual play. What the actual And then we've got and Do we have Exactly. recording ask the questions? Like on our, on our scenes. Yeah. But I'll be sitting there asking Yeah, of course, yeah probably. whatever questions I'm gonna ask. interviewer eventually get to be So what did you do Yeah. try and get somebody else to ask, then we fill their own you know, scenes, cos then we get what we want. But is there, is there a situation where there's one, where where you're all in it? All. On only in like the the rehearsals and, like the actual gig and But even then, I mean, if he wants to be the interviewer. can't just like, putting people off. yeah, have to have the whole group there. No, not really. They've all got to be sat down, but No well chair over there I was thinking, erm, in like got to have the whole group there, otherwise it's one line in my, in my interviews, in my interview always said, but they don't necessarily. No, no, no, in my interviews, erm, I done, erm, two two people, and they just, that way they can talk about each other without erm, having a fight or anything. Yeah. I mean, all th this script Mind you, it's the, one person and the interviewer, all of it. Yeah,mi mind you, though, if Pete does it with everyone, then it's a change to what's been going on usually, it would be nice for a change. Yeah. If you see what I mean, to have that, sort of, contrast. Yeah. While everyone's there. So I mean, I'm not gonna point the questions at anyone in particular, I'm just like have them answered,but I might just say to is this normal for her to be late. Now one of them will pipe up, yeah, she bloody always late. Yeah, well, whereas in that, if they they when the recording the demo they have to be together, don't they. Yeah. Ethel's not there anyway. Not for hers to boot, So if if, but if you're interviewing, that only leaves Yeah, but you know, he can Yeah hold the cameras as well Yeah. Sorry? He can hold the camera as well. What and interview But, wait, but the thing is yeah, there's only a few scenes where everyone's in it, right, and where people, everyone is in it, then obviously I'm gonna have help from you or from Andy aren't I? Well, I think we can do it. I know you're not convinced, No, I'm not convinced because You're not convinced, but I think we can do it. The idea is not that you're actors on this course, but that you're learning how to film objection aside, I don't want to be in this at all. Not interviewer, nothing. Is that all of us. So I mean, we could, we could recruit people in to do it, but the problem there is they've got to be free at the times when this course runs. See, the thing is, everyone's gonna get the chance to be behind the camera or do some directing, because it's not. Yeah, well if that's, if that's, I mean, that's all I am concerned about, that everybody does Yeah, that directing, Yeah. everybody does a bit of camera work and sound and things and everybody experiences those different roles that you have so far covered, you know, across the documentary, but not in every act. Mm. Yeah well yeah everybody'll get the chance, because erm Definitely. Yeah, but why . So so we're saying, we perhaps need an interviewer, Yeah. and we need a we need Yeah,discuss this really. So, can we also think who this interviewer would be, wouldn't it be, sort of a really trendy sort of person, with, you know, I don't know yellow hair, or, you know, sort of Oh, I don't know. documentary. two people, you know. Yeah. Where they're quite, sort of, trendy looking, aren't they. I think they'd just be normal. Just be I think they'd just be normal. It's alright I was thinking about you've seen But they aren't normal, are they, I mean, you look at N M E and you look at the language they use, I mean, that's not normal. No, I wa I was, er er I I was thinking anyway, that it wasn't exactly like that, it's more like a Forty Minutes type thing. Oh. B B C. Yeah, very over normal, Mm. extremely normal, because erm, I don't think N M E interviewers would bother to do something like this. So you want some something out of cutting a complete contrast between the sort of person who's being interviewed, sort of Yeah, I think that would probably Yeah. work better. And er, laid back, perhaps How how many actual scenes are there. Erm, five, well five Five. Acts. Five acts, and the people that took Sections. But have you got the scenes. No, no, no. But Have you got, have you got a First one. First last. Yeah. Yeah. First one. Second erm Yeah. So we can have like commercial breaks sticking adverts in between. Oh, oh. good idea. Oh. break coming up, you say, right like zang, have little cliff-hangers. Break it up a bit. Little cliff-hangers in between. You can have your adverts in there. It's a shame that they're all about a drink but anyway. This is like some getting done with the ads. Yeah, but , and everyone else in the group. Oh yeah. Cos I've been trying to organise it. So why don't we do this other one, your your static Yeah. I'm actually, no I'm seriously considering doing it. Right. But I I really like to work with that lot, because the advert would be so funny. Yeah, the exact, the set that would wait forever, wouldn't it. That's true. So perhaps we ought to realise the fact that we've never actually gonna get that one down. True. Unless I could do, two. Yeah, well perhaps, well we'll need one down there Oh yeah. do the one that you can do. Okay, well. What what we need to do, is make sure these scripts are done before half term really, don't we. When's half term? Next week, I think. Next week We really ought to be rehearsing this stuff, well finalising the scripts after half term. Yeah, and adapting and the modifying I think what we need to do. need to be rehearsing pretty much straight away. Yeah. Once we've got all the scripts done, I think we should erm, allocate roles to certain people behind the scene, so we know exactly what we're doing. In each in each section Yeah do Who's doing what, yes, okay. Right, okay. So is, I mean, you're nearly finished with your script, Yeah. is there a chance that you could work on this before Friday, and have a script. I think so, yeah. What about you ? Definitely, I've got three quarters of it done, already. Right, so, so hopefully we'll have a look at all the scripts, then, on Friday. We've got time though, don't we. Yeah, but somebody else set You know, I mean, they'll be some changes. It's not essential, is it. No. There'll be some changes. There's a couple of people who haven't got the essay titles from from last Friday, erm, have you got your copy of it handy , and that they could No,I didn't copy it down You didn't copy it down either, have you no intention of doing it, or something. I did,at the back. Well, I've got it written down here, and at the end of the lesson you can get it. Is there anybody not want spare scrap paper. Got loads, yeah, got tons at home, mum No, because we're doing something else now. Okay, we don't want the entire lesson held up while you did what you were supposed to have done on Friday, right. Now, we're working on language, now, but because a question turns up every year on paper one, to do with education, we're going to be considering education, and we're going to consider education in the broadest possible way, and that is, how do we know things. Or more specifically, start considering how you learn things. Now you should all have a spare scrap of paper that's blank on one side, out of my recycled paper box, okay. At the top of this I want you to write, either a skill or an area of knowledge that you have, that you possess, okay, that you're pretty proud of. That you know, that if anybody asks you to do this, or asks you a question connected with this, you can do it. Right. It could be, when you go to Quasar you win every time. It, I wouldn't bet on it. it could be that you're the world's expert on Michael Jackson's greatest hits, I don't care, okay, it can be anything, if you were in the scouts, maybe you can light a fire with two matches. I don't know, whatever. Or half a can of paraffin, if you're anything like most of the scouts I've met. But you see what I mean. It could just be that you're the person in your family who knows what's on all those video tapes that nobody's labelled up. Oh, that's me. You're not, okay. Whatever, I want you to think about, your skill, what you're an expert at, and write it at the top of the bit of paper. Just one? Well, one'll do, okay.. Where did you get it from. haven't done anything. Well, you're the leader. Yeah, but I can't exactly write that down, can I? Like like telling people I take after somebody important. What are you good at. I don't know. I know, I can cut a loaf of bread on a machine. Yeah, so can I. I can work a till. medium slice. Medium or thick slice, par bake, yeah, we can do thick slice too. Oh, okay. Yeah. We know. Oh, that's bad, that is. I know. I've experience of cooking sixty to seventy sausage rolls, every Saturday. . I can work a till. fifty pounds, it's a real bugger. spend any money. spend fifty pounds worth of bread, do you? No true. I can work a till? Oh, right. Yeah, and I know what to do with cheques and credit cards. I'm a professional pick-pocket. I'm a professional stamp collector. I don't know, I still can't write anything down. spend money really well. I can work a till and I know what to do with cheques and credit cards. Yeah. I think I'll put that as well Mind you like everybody else put that down, but Well it's a skill I have. I have, I did have experience with cheques and credit cards, but that was when I was working at the chemist, but now we don't take cheques. Right. Don't take cheques. Where do you work? I'm putting that to. Have we all got something, sh, sh, sh, have we all got something. Yeah. Right, now, and here's the tricky bit. I've looked over the shoulder at a few of these and they are obviously not the sort of thing, that you came sliding out of your mother's womb knowing how to do. Okay. Er, so some how or another you've learned them, right. Right, could you manage to remember how you got that skill, or that knowledge, okay. Er, you might also want to consider, er any gains that you have got from having this skill or knowledge. Gains? Gains. Gains. Gains. does it just make you feel good, or, has it helped you to do something else that you wanted to do. . If somebody's written it about somebody else's biography, okay,it's auto if it's, you know. Okay, now, what you should have in front of you, is a recipe for successful learning, because what you've got at the top, right, what you've got at the top is something that you've learnt, and you think you're pretty good at it, and what you've got in the middle is, how you got to be good at it, and what you've got at the end, is what you gain from having it. Really, if we can make every single one your A levels follow that pattern, for you, we'd have excellent results at the end of the day, okay. But, let's just see, if there is a pattern, or if everybody's different. Okay, so what we'll do, is we'll combine. First of all, perhaps if you could all let everybody else know what we're talking about, what your particular skill is. Do we start over here with Martin. And go round. It's not exactly a skill, but, I've got good erm, at work I've got a good memory, like a knowledge of all the different items an the counter. so yours is work related. Yeah. Good memory, for all the items on the counter, you have learned and classified a variety of material. Cheeses and things like that, you know. Cheeses, okay. Right, okay, Jo? Good at making quiche. Quiche. Good at making quiche. Fine, er a number of skills involved there. Right. Oh, yes. I mean, perhaps sometime after the lesson, you can tell me how you stop the pastry on the bottom going soggy. Okay, Vicky. Good at making scones. Scones. That's mine, yes. That's the one I always use for this exercise is scones, great. Lynn. Playing the clarinet. Playing the clarinet. We've got a diversity here, haven't we. What about the next table. Knowing what's on T V every night. Knowing what's on T V every night. Knowing what's on television every night. Okay, so the portable Radio Times. Okay. Star signs and that. Yes, you're good on astrology, is it? Astrology? Yes. Okay. Really cool. Darren? Erm, eighties music. Eighties music. Right, well again, classification of a wide l lot of material well all three of those, yeah. David? I like sport . Sport. Yeah. Any one in particular? Boxing, football, athletics. Boxing, football, athletics. Okay, in boxing, have you got a particular move, a particular tactic, a particular punch, that they've Yeah. Which is. No, just go mad, no. It's all tactics. So it's, you're good on the tactics. Suppose so. Okay, right. Assa? cricket. Cricket? Mm. Yes. Fine. Knowledge of, or skill at playing or Skill and knowledge. Skill and knowledge. phworgh. okay. Hannah? Erm, I can remember or orders and prices at work that I have to do. Again, it's memory and classification of material. , yes? I can work a till and I know what to do with cheques and credit cards when people pay. Right. S so th th there's a variety of different skills involved in there, the the mechanical the till and the knowing what to do with cheques, credit cards, er, have you got a sense of when you've got to check up on a card, or something like that. Yeah, I've caught two bad ones. There you are you see, that is a very definite skill, which she, you're using an awful lot of that one, it would be interesting to know how you developed that that skill. Stephen? Ozzy Osborn Ozzy Osborn Again, material, classification, memory. Red Dwarf. Red Dwarf, again, the same, the material, the knowledge. Erm, working on a till knowing what to do at work. Right, another work related one. The same as well. And the same with you. Okay, isn't it interesting, isn't depressing, that absolutely none of these things was taught you at school, except possibly the sport? No. I mean, I knew what was going to happen when I started the exercise, but if you contemplate it from a teacher's point of view, if I go out and commit suicide or break down you'll know why, won't you. None of you have said, my deep and abiding love of Shakespeare, my knowledge of relevant quotations in Hamlet, have you, er, No. You know. Tony Morrison and American slavery, that's my area, that's none of you, okay. So, let's think about what this means for education, let's er, work out how you learn , okay. Now I might forget some of them but, er, what about er, you, seeing as how your skill is one that I haven't been able to acquire yet, Jo how did you get to make the perfect quiche. Just trial and error. Trial and error, I don't know, I think I've done enough of that. Never mind , okay. How many of the rest of you would say that you got where you are today, in your area of expertise, with trial and error. David definitely. My scone maker here. Anybody else? When you first started work, didn't you make any mistakes, Rowena? Yeah. But they're horrible about it so you don't do it again. right. Maybe I could learn how to be really horrible. Okay, so trial and error and involved with trial and error is something that I'm almost certain that Assa and David are going to er, come up with, and that's practice. Yeah, a lot of practising. Yeah. Yeah, because you can't have trial and error without a lot of practice. Erm, you too, Lynn. Mm. Yeah, there you go. Trial and error, and practice, lots and lots of practice, okay. Anything else, er, er, Lynn did your clarinet teacher ever play the clarinet and let you see her playing it well. No. No. Don't get taught like that, no. You don't get taugh do it like that. Did you ever see anybody else makes scones before you started. Erm, my mum. Erm, right, precisely the same way I learnt the same skill, watching somebody else do it right. Did you ever watch people at work before you've gone into it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Sport, erm, I remember when I learned badminton, that the teacher would show us the high smash shot down, until we saw it being done properly, if he told us the theory of it without showing us what it looked like when it was done properly, we wouldn't have known what we were aiming at. Does this ring a bell in any of the rest of you, that learned a skill. Yeah. You saw it done properly, okay. Now, there are lots of you, have got skills involving just memorising or learning of, doing research on a particular subject, whether, obviously, your Red Dwarf, how to you go about it. Well I bought lots of videos and then watch them a lot. Aha. Well, again, it's time, the commitment here Okay. Is it the same with you with Ozzy Osborn ? Yeah. And you spent a lot of time reading, a lot of time finding out. Erm, do you get together with other people who share Sometimes. Sometimes. What about and the Red Dwarf. kind of. Kind of. Right, so also this, the commitment is shared, we'll talk about it, okay. And I expect that same thing happens with the work related one, that because you're never at work on your own, or hardly ever at work on your own, and the same thing when you started, you weren't ever on your own, you could say to people, am I doing it right. What's the best way to do this, okay. So you're learning from other people as well. Right, okay. Now the question is why, well it's pretty obvious with some, it's pretty obvious why Rachel wants to know everything on television in her life, I suppose. Planning a time yeah? right? Er, it's fairly obvious why you want to bake a quiche or a a flan, it's fairly obvious, is it, why you want to play the clarinet? Why? For pleasure For pleasure. And the work one, there's a definite incentive of work. Now why are you doing A Level English?might want to talk that through. biology. And an answer has come up, with no, because they wouldn't let me do biology, you see. You could tell each other about this, you don't have to tell me. I'm pretty aware of it. I was under the impression that we could choose our books. . Okay, have you had long enough to Eh? So you've got an idea Yeah. about why erm, The reasons will vary. Some of you, I'm quite sure chose to do A Level English, because you were good at it at G C S E, Mm. and you thought you would carry on being good at it at A level. What? Erm, some of you chose to do it because you like reading, you like reading books, and you thought, it would be a chance to get an A Level doing something that you enjoy doing. A lot of you are doing it because you want to go onto further or higher education, and you needed a third A Level to add to your other two. Right. Now, could we just consider this, because you're all about seventeen which means that you'll be starting taking driving lessons some of you, quite shortly. Have you ever met anybody who took driving lessons, without wanting to drive a car at the end of it. Yeah. Yes. No. Have you? People have said, I'm taking driving lessons, but I never ever want to drive a car again in my life, afterwards. Yeah. It's just in case they ever needed to. They Well, in case. But they didn't say they didn't ever want to ever drive a car again. They didn't want to drive, but they did, they learnt to drive, but they they said they never really wanted to do it, but only if they really really had to do it. Had to. A kind of a safety thing. Yeah. Most of you, when you take driving lessons, what end are you gonna have in view? Bus driver. Right, yeah. yes, you are taking, going to take driving lessons in order that you can drive. But you're taking English lessons so as you can go and get a degree in sociology or physiotherapy doing A Levels, okay. Er, it's it's you don't have to be frightened of letting me know this, because, it it stands to reason, that it's going to happen, okay. Now, so we haven't got the reason for you gaining this skill that you had in the case of making scones, playing the clarinet. You learnt to play the clarinet, so she can play the clarinet. So orchestra. You don't learn to play the clarinet so that you can erm, be a physiotherapist. Okay? and fair enough, but you can be doing A Level English because you want to be a physiotherapist, and you need that other A Level, is that not true? Yeah, er, I mean, I'm not picking, I'm I'm, I mean Rachel's in my tutor group, so I know that there is another A Level subject that she's really very good at. And er, gets more excited about than she does English, you see. So erm, This is, you know, this is how it happens. When we're in the class full of people, and we don't have the incentive, that we don't want to do A Level English for it's own sake, but for another goal which is one further removed. What can we do about learning it. Do you think there are some of the skills that we got from here Now there's one rather important, that I didn't put up. It was involved with your trial and error and practice, but it was certainly involved with Vicky and that is watching, or learning from okay. Now, can we get some of these into our English, the trial and error, yes. If you avoid writing because you make mistakes, then when you are forced to write an exam, you'll still make the mistakes. If you write a fair amount, and read your work critically and let other people criticise it, you will get better. Think about people who learn really really important skills, how did they learn them? Teachers learn in part, by sitting in classrooms, watching other teachers teach. Did you know that? Er, how do surgeons learn to do complicated operations. Yeah, yeah, they learn their basic moves on corpses, so it doesn't do any harm. Just as you learn you learn your basic modes of essay writing in essays that I'm not going mark for A Level exams, okay, erm, but there is another way. They have to attend enormous numbers of operations and watch experts doing it. Alright. Sorry. So there you go. How can we relate this to learning English. Trial and error, yeah, do every bit of work that's set. Practise writing even although you think you're rotten at it. Yes. It's sometimes not obvious what mistakes you've made in English, it's pretty obvious to Vicky and myself when we make duff scones. How can we tell? Tastes horrible Yeah. Erm, and you know when you've gone wrong in the clarinet. Right. Do you know when you've gone wrong in the clarinet, and you know when you've gone wrong with the till. And, if you remember the layout of the cheese counter you find out pretty quickly that the, I didn't find out Sorry, any of the counters. Er, any of the counters. Yeah? Okay. Well what happens if you go to the wrong place? If they ask for some cheese, you won't get it on the meat counter will you? Yeah, quite. So you find out right away. Okay, and this is difficult when you hand essays in, isn't it. Very difficult. Time commitment. Do we have to talk about that word, really. I mean, how much time do you put into the Red Dwarf? More than you put into an A Level subject? Full time. Yeah, probably. Yeah!and not only that, not only that, but Dan talks about it to other fans, right. Now sharing it. Well, we have talking English lessons, and we hope that you don't stray off the topic too much. Sharing okay. How often do you talk about what you've done in English with somebody else? Think about it. I won't listen, honest, you can just discuss that with yourselves. Are you good at origami? Origami? Yeah. You should have put that down. I'm gonna, I can make you a paper star, if you'd like. Yes go on. Only if you make me an isosceles triangle, first. Isosceles triangle. I mean, no no, an equilateral triangle, please. An equilateral triangle. Okay? Now. Now, one of the ways that you will get better, is talking about it to people, okay. Now, you may be a little embarrassed to discuss how you work with people other than in this classroom, although, as the course goes on, you'll find more and more people doing Hamlet in other classes, and you might find, especially when you're in the upper sixth, when someone in the lower sixth comes to you and says, what does this mean that you can talk about it with them, okay. Er, but, you can talk about other aspects of English very, very easily with other people and that is what you read in newspapers, okay. I read this very interesting article on corruption in government. What was in it somebody asks you. Could you tell them? Probably if you thought that, okay, I read this fascinating article about, what's his name Richard th th you know one, the one who plays Spock. Nimoy Nimoy, that, Nimoy, right, I think I read this fascinating article about him, now you can see how interested I am in Star Trek, can't you. Not at all. Yes, but, Dan if Dan has read an extremely interesting article about this actor who plays in Star Trek, and he meets his friend who is also a Star Trek fan. He'd tell him what was in the article, probably won't ya. Mm, yeah, probably. Probably, yeah, yes, you will. Er, certainly I'm sure Rachel shares her information, even if it's only to say, you can't watch that because something else is on Channel Four at the same time. Right? Mm. You share the information you got, but you talk about it, and you hear what other people have got to say. Right, and you can do this with newspaper articles. Erm, you are going to be practising at least one A Level skill when you do that, and that's precis. Because when they say, what did the article say, and you tell them, you're summarising it, right? So you can all do a summary, every single one of you, okay. So keep practising that summary. The other thing you can learn is style. What is an appropriate style for an appropriate situation, because you all read outside English lessons, and you all know that, well, what about this one, what sort of style is that in. Mm. What would that be useful for, what's the audience? Language college. What do you think that style is. How does it get its information across. By writing A list, a very simple statement. And you've worked out the audience. What about this one. Do the same for this one. Yeah, it's good isn't it, yeah. And then for these. You recognise these styles, that's what you're supposed to do. You recognise this style? Well, alright, then, yeah. And this one. Now have you all read examples of those styles, before? Have you? Have you read the, have you read articles or any pieces of writing that were like that before? You read examples of styles like that before? Yes. Have you read examples in styles like that before? Yeah. That's an encyclopedia, yes. And you've read bookmarks giving information. Right. You've all read these styles before, is that true? You might not have read those actual pages before, but you can recognise the style, where it comes from. You could recognise the style of a weather report, an Agony Aunt all sorts of different types of writing, er, you could probably, if your reading is as wide as it ought to be, recognise the style of a leader from er, pretty heavy newspaper, Guardian, Independent, Observer, that sort of thing, could you? Could you tell the difference between that and the leading article from the Sun? Yeah. Yeah, mhm, you could, you wouldn't get those two muddled up. Er, you could tell the difference between er, newspaper on crime and the chief constable's report. Right? Or, er, an article in the Times about crime prevention, or problems with youth, you could tell the difference, couldn't you. You don't seem so sure about that, could you? Yes, of course you could, and not just because there's pretty coloured pictures in one and not in the other although that's part of it, that's part of the presentation. Now, if I asked you, right, to present information about this A Level, cos it's something you all know about, okay. In the form of a very brief list of what we want to know about A Level, could you do it? Could you make a book mark out of it. Ju just no, a book mark of the information you need to know about English A Levels. Probably, yeah. Could you write an article for somebody in the top year of your last school, about English A Level, and what they should be able to, what they should expect? Yes Yes, definitely. Yeah, you could do that. Would they look the same? Don't know. Don't know. Could you write an encyclopedia entry on Beloved? No. No? No. Depends how well you know the book. Sorry? Depends how well you know the book. Well, you ought to know it well enough to write five or six lines about it, which is all you need for a book. Right and you would know what style to use, wouldn't you, or would you? Oh, no. What's the difference between the encyclopedia style and the other styles, then. Can you work that out. It just comes straight to the point Yes, it's concise, so is the book mark, it's informative, it comes straight, but, it it's very factual, isn't it. It doesn't say, some people think A Levels are a good thing and some people think A Levels are a bad thing, it wouldn't say something like that, it wouldn't be vague like that, it would say, A Levels are the qualification issued in most sixth forms in England and Wales, right, erm they generally need a two year course of study. They are recognised by all British Universities. It'd say something like that, wouldn't it. Mm. The facts about A Levels. Right. Next stage up from G C S E, the stage before er, a degree. You're happy about that. Now, we're going to work on summary skills this week, and you have summary skills already. If I said to you I missed Neighbours on Friday, what happened, a lot of you could tell me, couldn't you? Right. Yeah, I, yes, but a lot of people could tell me, right. Er, and if I said it about any television programme you had watched. If I sa said to you, tell me, could you describe to me briefly the layout of where is it you work? Safeway. Safeway. You could do it, couldn't you. Easily. Easily, yeah. Right, if I say could you summarise the plot of Revenge of Khan could you do it? Who. Shows you how stupid I am about, now which is the Revenge of Khan then? Star Trek. Yeah, okay. Yes, I bet, sorry? There you are, you see. There you are and again you get the problem, you see, that I'm just not interested, so I don't learn these things. Erm, and it's probably the problem that a lot of you have with Hamlet, you see. Okay, Red Dwarf, oh dear, character study of whatever the Liverpudlian's called I've forgotten yes. You can do that, yeah, of course you could. Right. Could I just have your attention, it's just the end, for practice, for summary, you need to be very aware of why certain pieces of writing are written the way they are. Mm. Which audience demands which style, okay, we're going to be practising that over the next week, and the other skills to do with summary. for the benefit of those who've forgotten. You were going to look at ways of classifying the short stories you've been looking at, when y , sort of, to look at similarities between short stories, like which ones deal with husband and wife relationships, which ones are about loneliness, I mean, use your paper, it's it's only there for scrap paper, you haven't got to produce something that's gonna be pinned up on the wall. Erm, and there is some more paper over on the the easel over there, if you want another sheet. But just use it first to brain-storm some ideas about, you know, what sort of things are the stories about, what ideas, what themes are they dealing with, and which stories deal with those themes. Alright, and I'll talk about, well, the lesson finishes at twelve, so if you have about a quarter of an hour, twenty minutes on that, then what I want each group to have someone who will report back on what the group's been talking about in the next twenty minutes or so. Alright. Any questions on that? That's fine,things that you haven't thought of, that's coming from what they've done, okay? So erm, spokesperson for this group. Shall I hold it up for you, and erm, or somebody'll hold it up for you. If you'd like to turn round, turn round and address the attentive multitude. You might not be able to see all of this somebody will talk you through it. Go for it. Right, we sub-divided the whole book into four main areas, we divided into, husband and wife, male and female, loneliness and death. Most of the stories into categories,one or two. For a husband and wife list we've got , the Black Madonna,the Stone Trees, and the Weekend. And for male and female, we've got all of the ones above and , Summer Picnic, The Different Nights, A Love Match, Miss Love Letters, The Man . For loneliness we've got Miss Love Letters, Annie, No Survivor Stone Trees, Mannequin,The Visitor,The Picnic, Summer Picnic, Different Nights, Love Match, and New People. For death, we've got Passages of The Different Nights, No Survivor and The Visitor. Yes, any questions. Any comments. It's better than ours. Better than yours. Yeah. Okay. Well that's a good lead into yours, then. Would you like to talk about yours, thank you. this was Isabel's idea of Shut up! No. Erm. Isabel's going to work paper. Do you want again, talk about this one, first, or gonna No, no, no. as you can see. Well, what we were going to sort of do, is similar to what you lot did, but it kinda came out wrong. Yeah. In the sense that, we wanted to categorise them, under things like, sex, race, religion whatever, and colour code. we're gonna be thinking about it beforehand, so, we can scrap that. Right,decided to do away with that, because what's happening here, is what I don't want you to do really, cos we've been, we've been through the stories, separately, Yeah. Right, so I I actually don't want it, don't want you to do that again, we've looked at each story to see what it's about, so it's actually better to take the idea and erm, get get the stories and to write the idea. Now actually, they do themselves down, because this is where they started, you see, can you talk about this one? Erm, we started off with was that, erm, we would just write down any word that came up to our head, in terms of relating it to the story i.e. we thought about memories, and memories Erm, this is gonna match up with your isn't it. Yeah. tell us what some of the ideas of, could you just quickly go through the areas that you identified. The areas? Well people might like to write them down, if they haven't thought of them. Well, sex seem to quite large sex written three times up there. Erm, we've got sex and memories, women versus loneliness,, erm race, class, relationships, religion erm couples, motherhood, incest, marriage, sadness, relations, grief that's what we think covers quite a few of the stories, don't we. Yes, well, they haven't got round to it. Let's, what you, Oh Classified. under those headings, Yeah. Okay. We did try. Yeah, we did try, I think that's quite pretty. Okay. Having failed, just try again, you know, the spider syndrome. Right. Have I got so many sheets of paper then, I need about six hundred people to erm, Yeah, we went through these stories, and tried to link all different things they go under, got attitudes, weight, sex, exploitation, memories, mother and child relationships, old fashioned settings, aspirations, working women, ageism, husband and wife, loneliness, change, working in middle upper classes, racism and grief, and then, we started again, through the stories giving numbers, and putting them under the headings we thought they came under, but the thing is, we've got a lot of them under all, well not all the headings, but a couple of the headings. A couple of the themes. Yeah, we haven't got rea like they've done, you know, just four. Mm. But we're probably beginning to make ours smaller now. Mm. Yeah, erm, I mean, I think, what you've, what you've actually done is identified quite a lot more areas than they, they had four, which which they did in in some detail, and they got the stories classified, erm, what you've actually thought of, is is far more areas, which I think's good, erm, and maybe other areas to consider as well. Erm, what would be more useful if you could identify the stories, that are to to do with memories. A count-down. They aren't chapters though, are they. Erm, It's Miss Letters is the best one, erm, The New People, Summer Picnic. How did you get to work though, did you just like. We had to We all did it as part of an English lesson. But Erm, what else have we got The Man Who Kept Bus Station, and The Lone Survivor memories. Alright. What have we got then as a mother, mother and child. July Ghost erm, Summer Picnic. You know, sandwiches or whatever she just have, like, but it was kind of She did have a mother. Oh shit. And then to, right, let's start doing that one. Yes. Fall from grace. This erm, old fashioned whatever it was, is is quite an interesting area I thought, erm, whether, it sounded old fashioned to start with, an old fashioned what. Whether it was attitudes or setting or relevance to modern life, you know, to what extent are some of the stories relevant to their time and place, and not to our time and place, so that might be an interesting area to explore. Erm, and to look at the stories which are of a different time but are still relevant to our time and place, they have a, have a message for us, even though they were set a hundred years ago, they've still got something to say us, so I think that's an area we need to to explore. I certainly think that this is good in terms of, it gives you a a lot of areas, even if they don't necessarily identify the stories, so, if you're, sort of taking notes about which areas. Yeah, that's the abbreviation obviously, but if you're looking at the areas, I mean there is, er, I think you've identified a lot, obviously the husband and wife relationship, and obviously the men women which is, one you looked at. Change, is an im er, as an important one, how, how different writers present change. So, if you've got, sort of, three or four stories that you know, that you could deal with, the type of question you might get is, discuss how erm, different writers deal with the subject of change, with reference to probably about three stories. Er, loneliness, I mean, a lot, so many of them deal with loneliness, you'd think that was a preoccupation of women short story writers, I think. I can't see what's here, working oh, class, the class thing comes out. Grief. I suppose grief, loneliness, loss they're all interconnected, aren't they, so any one of those could come into it. Morals, attitudes, again, there's a bit of a cross over there. Sex, exploitation. I think between you, I should think you've covered quite a lot of erm, of the areas there. I mean, some and some of the issues are, perhaps not the main issue of the story, but er, are sort of peripheral, if I can use that word, on the, on the edge, like identified weight as a problem, which a lot of middle aged women seem to encounter and get obsessed by it, but actually, the weight thing there, but the central thing is the relationship between the husband and wife, and the weight issue is sort of, I don't know, tied up with it, but it it wasn't the main issue. Right, so that's a brief gallop the the various issues in the short stories, does anyone want to er, speak now, or for a long time, hold your peace. Does anyone want to say anything on the subject. Not gonna say anything for the microphone. Okay, then, erm, can I collect the pens up then, and erm, Wednesday, you're all going to write your assigned essay don't forget. Julie? Have you got time to somebody. Essay on Wednesday? Right, the apostrophe. Are you ready? The apostrophe. Right, the examiners at A Level expect, an A Level student to be able to use the apostrophe reliably and correctly, so let's just erm, go back to basics, with the apostrophe, as it seems to cause more confusion than, practically anything else. When an apostrophe comes just before an s at the end of a word, it shows that something belongs to that word. So you write the car's windscreen, The Sue's bike, and the King's head, it's it's an owner, plus possession, and the owner has the apostrophe of the thing that comes immediately afterwards. Alright? So if a word, the word, the cars, occur at the end of a sentence as in erm, I went to the showroom and saw the cars full stop. There would be absolutely no u need to use an apostrophe because there's no possession to follow it, it's always got to be in that pattern of owner and possession, and if it's one, then it's before the s and if it's more than one, it's after the s. So that covers the next point about plurals. You don't add another s obviously, cats' cradles, rabbits' feets, divers' suits, are examples. The exception, because there's always an exception to every rule. If the plural word doesn't end in an s, you use the apostrophe and then you add an s, and these, I think, are the only, there are three, er, is men, women and children, because the singular form is man, changes to men, so is apostrophe s, the women the same, the children the same. So that's the only place, I think, where you're going to find, where the word is a plural, the apostrophe comes before the s, is where the plural didn't end in an s. Write the apostrophe and then the s and that's the only reason for putting an apostrophe before an s, or after an s at the, at the end of a word. Now that's not every word, this is what happens when you start doing the apostrophe, that, there'll then be a spate of whenever you see a word ending in s, ah, word ending in s, use an apostrophe, regardless of whether you should use one or not, now you are a lovely think about it. If it's not in the owner possession pattern, then you don't use an apostrophe. There are lots of words that end in s, and you don't need to use an apostrophe on them unless it's an owner. Which, as a straightforward plural, is a straightforward plural and the cardinal sin is putting an apostrophe on a word which is a verb, which shows really you're not thinking about it. You know, she sits by the window. Well, what logic is gonna put an apostrophe on sits. It's it's a verb. You're only ever going to get an apostrophe on a noun. You can't possibly have it on a verb, and that's another little rule you might like to think of, that you're only going to get the apostrophe on a noun, and you will never get an apostrophe on a pronoun. So that why it's possessive. Never has an apostrophe, it's only on a noun that you're going to do it, so, you could pick up sort of, just little, clues there as to , how to remember what you're doing. Right, a little exercise for you. Exercise one, put in apostrophes where they are needed in these sentences. Okay,sentences. Think about it, though, don't just blindly put them on any word that ends in s, make sure you know why you're putting it there. Okay. One minute We're welcome to collaborate with the person next to you, you don't have to do it in splendid isolation. How are you doing, have you finished No. No. the first group of four. No The sheep's intestines are causing people a lot of difficulty. in number one, what have you erm put the apostrophe on. Erm, on athletes. Where? Between the e and the s at the end. Correct. And in between the t and the s on assistants. And that's the verdict of you all, is it? No. No. Should be an apostrophe over umpires as well. There should be an apostrophe on umpires as well. So there should be one on assistants too. Yes. Yeah. Because it's the umpire's assistant, and it's the assistant's chair. and the assistant's chair. So it's the umpire's, assistant's chair. So I should think both of them were apostrophe before the so you got Three. How many of you got the three right in that one? Is that all? Right, erm, Martin, number two. Erm, well I just put one on friends, between the d and the s. You put one between the d and the s of friends. Yeah. Father's It's father's as well. Certainly I think fathers, as in my father's friend, yeah, and my father's friend's aunts, yes, so one, r and s of father's, in between the d and the s of friend's. And councils. And councils. And you'd like one on, yes. Where would you put in on councils. Between l and s. Between the l and the s. Tell me, has anyone got an apostrophe on aunts? No. No. Shoot yourself. I have. Shoot yourself. Between the t and the s. On aunts? Come on get your brain going, After the s. what what's the possession that comes after aunts. After the s. ? There ain't one aunt, is there? No, there ain't one aunt. There ain't one I know there ain't. Right. Okay, so it's on father's friend's, and council's and on nothing else in that sentence. I'm not doing well. Erm, Ella. Number three. Erm, I put the apostrophes between n and s in stations. Yeah, between the n and the s of stations. Mm, I put one after s in laboratorys. You put one af after the s of laboratorys? Mm. No. Between the y and the s. Because if it was laboratories, it would be I E S. I E S, yes. If laboratories is plural, it would be I E S and you would have the apostrophe after the s then, but it's obviously singular, cos it ends in y so you put it after the y and the s. And erm, Charlie! The sausage skins Oh yeah. I put one between Pardon? I haven't done that one. You haven't done that one. No. Well, would you like to have a go? No. Put one between p and s on sheeps. You'd like one between the p and the s of sheeps, yes, I would agree with you there. Erm erm, the n and the s on skins. No. No. No. Skin's what? No. Skin's what, what's the word that follows it Charlie? Are, Skins are It's not you can't have it on skins. Mallards, then. Yes, we'll have one on mallards, between the d and the s. Don't have to, though. Pardon. It looks like, it could be a name, because Mallards could be the name of a company. like. Well No, it's not. I mean, if the company was Mallard, then In a Mallard , but Mallards, you don't know, though, you start At the end. I think you should like, forget that one for a while, because that But you can't Mr Mallards, can you? Well, I did, I don't know,I've crossed mine out, so I wasn't you see, Oh, right. and you can see the crossing out there. We should have an enquiry, whether it's Mallard I don't think we need to type an enquiry, I think that the people who realise that, the fact that you had got there is meant to indicate to you that name of the firm was Mallard, and therefore by using by using Mallards, sausage skins, they're expecting you to use apostrophe s. Yeah. Erm, and so that's all you need, Between the d and the s of Mallards, and the p and the s of sheeps. Did anyone put, did anyone put apostrophe after the s of sheeps. No. Cos it's one of these words where the plural doesn't end in an s. Sh. Right, put your hands up if you got all of those right Okay. I would have got them all right except for Fine, right. Now try the next s set of four then, and erm, see if you can er, improve your score. I like the second one, next one. That's right . It's they, if it's the same Would you, would you like to do a group collaboration on this one, because erm, can you come up with a version that your group agrees on? Yeah, that's true, Wendy You told me that when you went to work for was the first time you came across abortion really in . Yes it was yes . What was your experience there? Er well whe er when I first went to I'd already lost two children and er the girls knew that I worked with the t last two children. And I became pregnant again and they were falling over themselves to do an abortion for me. I mean there were several people but m the surprising was the person in charge of of the work girls you see. She offered to do one and I I was shocked because we wer we wanted a baby you see, we wanted the baby. They couldn't understand that. Most of the husbands were in the Forces and mine was at home and er any way er before I left two two different women had had babies and had abortions and died. One was er she'd be about thirty six the first one, and er she didn't come to work one day and er the girl, in the afternoon the girl c , her daughter, she was fifteen, er she came to speak to me and she said er, Oh, I said, Hello,how's your mum , is she poorly? She said, She's dead. And she'd had an abortion the night before and she'd died that day on the Monday. She'd had an abortion on the Sunday and she'd died on the Monday. Course I di I didn't get to know much else but it was obvious you see, she'd been going out with a young man, her husband was in the Forces and er she'd tried to get rid of it. She died. And er the same thing happened about another one. Er this was very surprising as well. This person had got one son about twelve, and her husband was in the Forces as well. And er she was missing, and one day I saw her sister-in-law and I said, Where, how is she? Wh Is she ill or what? She says, I'm afraid she's dead. She died through an a backstreet abortion you see. See you couldn't go and have an a an a illegal a legal abortion in those days, it was all backstreet abortions. And the thing that was said a lot was a Slippery Elm stick, well I still don't really know what it was but er it was a kind of a s , bark of the Slippery Elms, a Slippery Elm bark or something and they sharpened it to a point and inserted that into the womb you see and it was done, and then of course I heard a lot about gin, sitting in a hot bath with gin. I mean really I er it shook me because I was extremely naive, I'd had two children but I was very very naive in those days. And er people was of often off for day or two, I mean really nice people, they weren't they weren't bad people, they were really nice people but they it was nature you see. Their husbands were away and they didn't know if they'd come back or not and er, one girl er th this wasn't at the , near where I used to live at . She became pregnant, it was at the ending of the War, when the War was ending you know. And er she'd tried to get rid of it and she couldn't, so she found out her husband was coming home, he was actually in the boat coming back and she didn't know what to do. In the end she sent him a telegram to explain you know that she was pregnant with a another man. About three days after she had er the abortion started to work and she lost the baby. He came back but he forgave her. He was ver , you know he was really nice about it. He said, Well er, you know, it's just that, I mean with nature being what it is you see. She wasn't a bad wife or anything like that, it was just that she'd met this man at work, where she worked, they both worked at a dry cleaning place. And er but of course she did lose the baby. She'd been trying to get rid of it and then suddenly it worked and she lost the baby. So most of the people who were having abortions were people who were having a child by some other man? Oh yeah. Yes. I wonder I was wondering whether some people were having abortion because they perhaps already had too many children? Well I I di I didn't kno I never met anybody i in in that category. Er er you see it was all, with me it was when I, at the time I went to work and er I had to leave work to have my baby you see. And it and this, the one, the last one was just after I left so I didn't know her, I knew her to look at but I didn't know her personally. And er th they were all people whose husbands were in the Forces fighting Mm. you know it was terr terrible times Mhm. really. And as you said it seemed to be erm the norm that people assumed that if you were pregnant that you didn't want to be and therefore Yeah, yeah, yes. you would be looking for an abortion so people , Yeah. it doesn't sound as if people had much inhibitions about coming up to you and asking you . N no , well see what happened to me, I mean this person came and she said er, Er if you like I'll do it for you. I said, Do what? She said, I I'll abort your baby for you. She said, I've done lots, she said. Er you'll be alright, you'll be safe. Couldn't believe it, you just couldn't believe what you was hearing, you know. Cos I so, we so desperately wanted a baby. I mean losing two, our last one a mo a month old and one at er two month old. And losing two like that, I still wanted a baby. And er of course I was lucky the next time see. But I just couldn't believe that people would be willing to do do that kind of thing, you know. Was there just one lady who used to do the abortions at er or lots of different people ? Oh no, oh I think there was quite a few. I mean she was just in our department you see. Er you see you sort of lived in one li small environment where, er with us it was er a certain room. We examined these magazines for shells, we examined them to see if they were perfect. But there was big, it was a huge place, you know , and there were a lot of women that did really heavy men's work, we weren't doing men's work. We were doing what women could could do anytime, you know. But in the er in the big shops where women did really heavy work and and really mixed with the men. There was quite a lot of it went on. You used to hear about it you know. I I could never I never knew anybody personally because er you know you just used to go work and then go home and that was it. I was away from work. Er you know you didn't sort of erm, you didn't mix a lot, you know really. Everybody had their own problems and I had mine with losing two the two babies, I had mine wondering if I'd lose another you see and that that was my particular worry at the time. And tell me about the lady who did abortions, erm, did you know very much about what sort of people they were? Erm The one in particular in your department . The one in our department. Erm well she was quite a very well spoken presentable person, you know. But she'd got this little bit of oh I don't know, a little bit of coarseness about her. You know. Er just that little bit th that you felt, that I wasn't, er you could imagine her doing it, you know. I mean to me the boss of of our bench, there was probably twenty people on the bench, to me the boss of that it wasn't what you call a particularly good job but she'd always worked at the and of course when when went on War work er th those that were still there they got the better jobs you see, to organize us that hadn't been, worked there before. And I wouldn't I I heard of a s very sleazy woman er near where I used to live, er I never met her, but it was all hearsay how many abortions she did. You know she's er she lived in a very tiny house at at . I never met her and it was just talk in the shops, the corner shops were in those days were the gossip places, you know. And it w not like today the supermarket, every corner shop had it's own particular news of the world you know and my mother-in-law used to go down and she used to come up and tell me all these things about the things that were going on. She was the first to get to get to know about the lady whose husband was coming back from the Forces. She was the first to get to know about that you see and she'd come round and tell me. Because she lived against this woman. Do you think that the ladies who did abortions did it mainly for money, or wer was it sort of concern for ? Er maybe some, I think quite a few did it for money because money was short in, really. But I think a lot of them were genuinely concerned, as in my case I think this person was genuinely worried about me because I'd had, it was my third child and I I do think she was er worried about me because er you know you don't want to keep having babies and losing them but I wasn't worried about, I was worried about myself, to say I wasn't worried that's stupid, but er we just hoped and hoped and kept hoping. No I think sh I think she was genuinely concerned. She'd she certainly didn't want the money cos she'd got, her husband was a er you know she had er money from her husband and she had good wages at the you see with her being in charge er she had quite good wages. But I you know how much they charged for abortions, you've no idea ? No , no I haven't any idea at all about that. I never I never got too familiar to that extent you know. Probably a lot of people could tell you, you know. I I couldn't tell you that. But she she said, You'll be alright, you'll be alright, I'll do it. You know. Quite erm And how did she go about abortions, do you know? Well the only thing I've heard that she did was this, sounds stupid, Slippery Elm stick. I mean it it sounds stupid, but a person I knew, she was about as stupid as i was as naive as I was, because er she was pregnant, her husband wasn't away but she'd got how many, five, four children, she'd lost three children and she'd got, then she had four, and then she found herself pregnant again. And er half heatedly she decided she ought, she couldn't have any more children you know she'd, I don't think it was money so much that she thought she'd got enough and somebody told her about this Slippery Elm, well you could get a Slippery Elm drink, you know you know these milky foods if you've got a poor tummy, that that can, er she bought a tin of this Slippery Elm drink, and she drunk gallons of it and it was doing her good and she thought er she thought it wouldn't, she'd gone wrong you see . It was the Slippery Elm bark I think that's what it was called. And the people used to sharpen it to a point, why the Slippery Elm I don't know, I've often wondered about it really, but his person I'm telling you about she she was delivered of a good healthy boy and everything was alright. Yes she's somebody I knew very very well indeed. And er every time he was, the boy was ill after she said, That's through me taking that Slippery Elm that, that, I've done it. She was very, she didn't really want to get rid of the baby, not really, I think I think perhaps somebody had put the idea into her head you've got enough children you shouldn't have any more. But I think she was like me she didn't really want to get rid of her baby. But er he did the boy did suffer with a bit of stomach trouble in later life and she always blamed herself. But I've never really known about the Slippery Elm stick,wh , er didn't get to the bottom of it, you know, what it was. How did the other women feel about women who had abortions at the, at ? Well there were one or two that was a bit, got on their high horse, you know and say, It's disgusting and that, but er I never did because er in cases like that I think there but for the grace of God, you know I I wouldn't condemn people, in those, we were living in very abnormal times you see. I mean people were dying, men were dying, my brother died, he got killed in the War,pe every day you went to work and somebody would tell you, So and so's died, you remember so and so, he's died. And we were living in very a abnormal times, and women were snatching at a little bit of happiness they could get, you know this is what it was. But they were condemned by some people, there al there's always condemners, aren't there really. Mm. But I I wouldn't er if I hear of a girl getting pregnant er you know now now it's a very common thing I know, but sometimes I feel really sorry for the girls because it's tying yourself fifteen, sixteen tying yourself down to children. And I so desperately wanted children. But er there there were there were some pe our, our, on the bench that we we had a really, cross section on the bench that I worked on, there were very, women, one woman she'd never been to work in her life. And she liked the idea of going to work you see, she'd she'd got a family, she'd be about oh she was about ten years older than I was and erm she looked out of place you know. I I became a great friend of hers actually, er she looked out of place on the bench. She spoke very nicely and she was a very nice person but she was a little bit er you know, It's disgusting, she used to say. It isn't right you know, it's disgusting . But she'd got no problems, her husband was at home and er her little world was okay you see. But I mean people lived in those days you know I mean , you know where the is don't you? Well a lot of those people lived round there and they were hovels. Th they were really hovels, I mean,you know when I hear people talking about the good comradeship and that. There was to a certain extent but some of the homes were hovels. Back to back. I mean you you, I went to one one person's house, and er you went in the door in the terrace there there was a room. Erm that was the one room. There was a tap in the room, there was just one room, then one room there and one room there. Mm. Er where would with er would've been a front room that was another house. You see they were back to back. Yes. And it it was, I mean I was brought up in the country and it, I found it really shocking that people had to live like that, you know. I mean we weren't er,m my dad was a miner. We we we lived but we had a comfortable home, and I er I thought it was a lovely home actually. Somebody once said we were, erm, These are slums. Oh I was furious, I was very proud of my home, you know, I thought it, my home was lovely. I I've always been that way inclined, I mean my dad was er he he was a miner, he was a lovely dad, he was lovely man. My mum my mum was the best mum ever. My daughter said I'm partisan. My my middle daughter she said, Very partisan mum. No, I said, I'm not, but I've never been ashamed of er of er of my parents and my background. I think you can always learn a lot from your background and your parents. Ca can you tell me another thing about the abortions, do you know erm if, of course abortion was illegal then, do you Oh yes. know if the police ever took any action, particularly about these ladies who died, did you hear Erm. anything? No, no actually I don't. I don't know. And I was never one really to ask questions, I I daren't ask questions, I used, people told me things, that was it. But I think the the where we lived er er there was this woman that was well known for doing, and she lived in a very tiny house. Er I think she was in trouble with the police. Er I can remember the the news going around that er the police had been to visit, it was actually it was the next street to where I lived. And er she was in trouble but I didn't know the outcome, er you know. I think I was a little bit airy-fairy really, I used to live in a world of me own,I didn't, I wasn't terribly interested you know. If people told me that was all well and good but if they didn't, but I did hear about this erm er she did the operation on the girl who er who couldn't get rid of her baby, and then it, she lo she sent she sent a telegram to her husband or a letter er it took a long while to come from the Far East, he was in the Far East. And it took a long while for the letters to get there but he knew while he was on the boat that his wife was pregnant and er when he got here, she'd it'd been aborted. It was a late abortion it didn't work straight away, it m probably the baby died but it didn't come away from her you see and er, it was a shame, but she oh she was called a very bad woman you know because her husband was fighting for his country and and er you know. But er he he came back and they had er they had two more children actually. Cos they they didn't live far from me, I did know her by sight. Can you tell me then another side of this problem of abortion during the War is erm the problem of contraception then, erm I wonder do you think that people weren't aware of facilities for contraception then during the War? Well Or wh what was happening? Well I think a lot of it was erm ignorance. I mean I there was a thing I don't know if anybody's told Pessaries, Doctor Pessaries, that you could use. I used them and they worked for me. I I was very keen er when I had my daughter erm I was quite happy about it and I I I used them, then after three years I didn't use them. But they worked for me. But you see you've got to know what you're doing, you've got to really look after yourself. I mean I, it's no good me husbands to look af , I I this is my second husband but er with my first husband er I I sort of erm if it's been left to him, God bless him, he's dead now but if it'd been left to him I'd have had a houseful of children you know. So I had to look after myself so I I had one and then I had the other one, just stop at two. Er but I used to tell people and they you know people near me that had a lot of children and er they'd moan and groan about it, I heard one woman say erm, she'd had quite a few children and I I'd been in hospital and I said er, er a certain person that'd had a baby had lost it. She said, Ooh she's one of the lucky ones, she said, I couldn't get rid of mine. And now that was the attitude that that that they they had that er a lot of them, not not everybody of course that just and she had this attitude, erm anybody that had lost their baby were lucky, you see. And she'd I think she had about eight, over over a period of years you know. And think this woman that had lost her baby she said, she's one of the lucky so and so's you know she lost hers, I couldn't get rid of mine. She'd tried and she she didn't, her husband was at home he wasn't in the Forces but th this was the attitude. Would people go to their doctors to ask for contraceptive advice ? Oh don't think so, don't think they'd dare. I daren't have done if I hadn't er oh oh I know once my my doctor came to see me about something and there was erm a lot of people used to use er some pills oh what were they called, little round pills, when at the monthly periods they used to use them, oh Doctor Johnson's, Doctor somebody's pills, now they would have the effect of er your period you would see more than you usually did. But I remember I'd got a box on my mantlepiece erm not only was I using the pessaries but I was also taking these when the period was due. And erm I mean they were quite they wouldn't they wouldn't get rid of a baby, but a lot of people thought they would. I mean my doctor saw them, he said, What you taking these for? I said, Well I take them cos I have a lot, I used to have an awful lot of pain every month, I did, and it i this used to prevent the pain. And er he said, You can ask me for anything, cos he was a strong Catholic you see and he wouldn't he didn't believe in anything to do with birth control. Erm i if you want anything to stop the pain I'll give it you. Er so I said, Alright I'll stop taking them which I didn't anyway, but a lot of people used to took them but some used to take er when it when the periods were due they'd take about half a box, I mean instead of taking two, er two one day and two the next they'd take about half a box. Well I think you know they could've killed themselves taking all that now, I forget forget what they were called. They were black round like little tiny erm cashews you know, little black thing, just can't remember the name of them now. They were very well known. You used to buy them from the chemist. Yes so you, was there any difficulty or embarrassment about getting these things for the pessaries and the pills from the chemist? Well I I was never embarrassed at getting the pessaries, I used to and ask for them. And I never found any embarrassment there because there was I always saw the wom woman, you could always see a woman chemist. I always saw the woman and there was, she knew me and er there was no problem. Also the er the erm these Doctor something pills er she advised me to take them because of these pains I had and er but a lot of people thought they wold work wonders you know. That, if there's any baby there it'll get rid of it but I don't think it ever would. I don't think it was strong enough for anything like that. Mm. I hear that there was a er family planning clinic in in the Mm. thirties erm but I don't know a lot about it. I wondered if you ever heard of such a thing? Well not in the thirties of course but after the War there was one because I er, ah well this, no, this was much later, much much much, because I married my second husband and erm I had two children fairly quick. Er we were married three years, no children and I began to get desperate again and an anyway along came the first then came the second. And that was enough, we decided that was enough. So I went to the birth control clinic on, either Street or Street it was, I can't remember which. Do you know which it was? Well I know it was at Street at one time. Yes. Yes that'd be it. Yes that would be it. And it was a Doctor , er she was in charge , That's the name, yes. she was lovely. She was my doctor at the time, she was she was oh she was a grand person was Doctor . And er very kind, very gentle. And I I went but it was so embarrassing it made me ill. It was very very embarrassing this, what you went through you know and all this performance. You know. And I I er anyway it did make me ill,its it made me bleed. Er With internal examinations and Yes. things like that? Yes, when I got home at night I I was er I had to I was sent to the hospital I was bleeding. And erm you know it was pretty bad. And so I wouldn't use it, I wouldn't use the so we er my husband just had to take precautions and that was it. Yes, so they had did have a variety of different things you you could er be Oh yes. fitted with then ? Yes I heard of a lot of things, the coil, er my my sister had the coil and erm and of course the cap which which it what I had. And different creams and that kind of thing, but er oh it was you know not very nice. I was messy and I've always said that severe looking nurses you know and you felt a bit embarrassed. Yes. Was it a busy place when you went there? Oh when I went yes, there was a lot there, quite a lot there. This would have been what in the late forties or fifties, would this be? Th yes well my, oh no, it was in f the early fifties actually. Ah yes. Yes. My two, these two my last two girls were born in the fifties yes. Yes in, when when the youngest one, cos I had a very bad confinement over the youngest one, and er Doctor sa said, he said, he asked, You don't want any more,my doctor that was then, not Doctor because I was I wasn't under Doctor then. And she said, You don't want to have any more do you? Er I said, No, and she gave me a letter to take down there you see. Erm. You told me that you had an abortion in the nineteen thirties. That's right. Can you tell me how this all came about? Well my husband was out o on strike and I'd erm got two babies, a year and ten months, and I felt that I had to go and get a job and I was desperate so I'd heard people talking about these things as they did so I thought well I've got to do something. And er what I did I got everything, you know the , I don't think it was , and some warm water and I saw that my hands was well clean and I'd got some very nice little silver spoons, only small ones. And er I er penetrated, it took two or three days in the womb with this spoon, and the heard something go pop. And of course not long after that erm I was took ill and er I er had to have the doctor and they sent me to hospital. I can mention Mister , Doctor, he's Sir , John . Er he attended to me and I shouldn't have done but I looked at my notes at th bottom of the bed one day and it said, Interference denied. And of course I had denied cos nobody, I think he said, Has someone interfered with you? Nobody had, I'd done it myself, you see and I didn't want to know and er I didn't want anybody to know you see but er, he was marvellous I know and I know there was something else tiny came away it'd only be about six or eight weeks but it was, I think anyway what was lost was found and I was in hospital for about fourteen days. And er that's how I performed the, but I kept it to myself all these years you know and never told anybody what I'd done because I think it was terrible. Cos I How did you know how to go about it? Well when you're a waitress and you mix you know with all sorts and you hear different people talking and what they did and what they didn't do you now and some had Doctor pills at that time in the nineteen thirties and some used the Indian bark. Er what was there? Some pink pills or something but there was all sorts you know hat they used to say put your feet in hot in water, mustard and er fall down the stairs or go on a bus, they used to tell you all sorts of things you know to, and er anyway that's what happened to me. But thank goodness it didn't do me no permanent harm. B Er I did have a child for in nineteen forty eight. I did have c a hysterectomy but er because there was a l malignant growth, so whether in you know I'd done anything all those years and yet it didn't affect, you know it makes you wonder doesn't it? Well it makes you wonder but I should think And ten when you lose a lovely girl you wonder still, you know why you, if that was punishment. I didn't lose her till she was over twenty but So but I think it was desperation because if I'd had money I should've had a house full of children because I loved them, you see, I've always loved children. So Do you know if this was something that was happening to a lot of people, at that sort of time in nineteen thirties ? Oh yes, yes, yes but erm on the radio prog programme I heard someone say there was every street corner these women but they weren't, I don't think there was, I think it was you know, there were a lot of women that used to do it illegal. And er they used to get them to take these pills they said and they used to drink a bottle of gin, keep drinking gin. Oh dear I couldn't of that . No. Did you think of going to anybody like that before you decided to do it yourself No I wouldn't let anybody else touch me person. I was a bit oh dear, no, no I would never have gone to anybody, no. Did you tell anybody else that you were pregnant, any of your friends or anyone ? No, no I didn't tell anybody when I you know I when I was doing me upmost, of course they knew afterwards that er because of me going in the hospital you see. Where did you get from in those days? Pardon? Did you get from a chemist? Oh yes, oh yes, you got it from the chemist. It was what, I used today, they used it in all hospitals. Oh yes. Mm so it wasn't as if there was any query when you went to ask for it cos it Oh no but you see that was for cleanliness. You see that was to see that you know there wasn't any, yes. And when they, I don't think there was any queries, not with er the pills or the or erm Indian bark, have I said that? Indian bark. Erm mustard, gin, oh the things that they you know they used to do. And I and I as I say a lot was done because the poverty. I mean they haven' they they don't know today really you know well I think it's wonderful. I don't grumble about me pension, I could do with more, but I don't. No. What money did you have coming in at that time in fact? Oh I don't think we di we'd hardly anything. They wouldn't, the miners hardly got anything and there used to be soup kitchens for us and er when it first started in nineteen twenty six and er I was pregnant with my second one and I used to walk right down to Pit with a lace, great big lace basket, they wouldn't let the men fetch the coal and we had to push the coal from there right to the, oh they've no idea love, no idea. You see there'd been the nineteen fourteen eighteen War, then there'd there was the strike, and er I started to work and I had to go to work. And I've had to work, I worked till I was seventy. So when you were working as a waitress was that the only money that was coming into the house then? Yes, yes. Because your husband was on strike at the time? Yes, yes, yes and I wouldn't pay my rent because er ooh and I can tell you really the exact date when I er was pregnant because I know I quickened at the when it was first opened and er I was a waitress in the Room I think it was. But it was beautiful then. And I quickened then, of course you daren't go to work those days when once they knew you was pregnant it was a case of out. And also er there was the Picture House then, there's not any people remember it, next to. And er the woman there she wouldn't sign the paper because ny husband was a miner for me to get a drop of milk for him. That's how much assistance the miners had then. You know they didn't get the, you know, they've gone too far now. Everything is a, was a good thing that the unions but they're going too far. They're just taking a bit too much on. Well that's my idea and I mean as a , then we got the other War. So we haven't had er, we'd no chance really to save. So when you were pregnant did your husband know you were pregnant ? Yes er but I don't think he knew what I did, I think he thought I used to take the boiling water upstairs you see int he bedroom and er I think he just thought I was sitting on it to open the womb. No. He didn't er make any suggestion No. that he knew what you were goin was going on at all? Oh no, no. I wouldn't let him know that. No. No, he wouldn't have agreed with it you know but You didn't talk about it at all then? No, not what I'd actually done, cos he was very frightened when I went in the hospital. I was ill, but he didn't know actually that I had used that method. Yes. Can I just ask one thing, a another thing about the time you were living in, erm did you as a woman know anything about contraception? There was the what they tern the French letter. But they couldn't afford them. And it's true, I've seen my husband get water and wash it out well and er put powder and that because, and yet you shouldn't, you see they weren't safe really but they was that poor love they had to. Mm. I mean it's unbelievable. So was there anything that you could do apart from leaving it to your husband? Was there anything you could do via means of contraception, rather than just leaving it to your husband? I didn't know anything. I think some people they used to put a, I think some used a little sponge and put something on but I didn't. I didn't, until that actually happened you know, I didn't believe in anything like that. And you didn't know about anything else? No, no, no, only the medicines and different pills and different things, you know, that these women used to do to their selves. Oh what sort of medicines an pills were those? Oh I think, wasn't there Pills, pink pills and ooh I forget what else. I know they used to put bark in their inside,,, that's right. And then I said they used to have the mustard baths. Oh yes. And they used to take the gin and these pills and you know. Yes. Gin er was that er Alderman , the old gentleman, the older alderman, you know he's been dead years now from , and erm they were very good. They used to er send a lot of er in erm Street is it, up at the er, you know what I, that that jus , in Street was it, in Street? Street. Er there used ti be a place there but er, no I can never remember knowing or else I should think I should've gone. Only I didn't, daren't mention it to the doctors you know. You didn't Was it not something people talked about with their doctors then? No, no, no, no. No. Why was that? Were they er a bit er frightening the doctors then or? Well did I don't know things are so open and you know, these days. But I still maintain to encourage them at twelve years of age to be ab oh I think it's all wrong. Mm, mm. Now you had three children within two and a half years. Yes, two years and four months. Mm. Yes I did i well I did hear of several things to stop having them but over the first actually. And er the pills, all different sorts of pills,, Doctor pills, er there was all kinds of pills in those days that you could take to you know, to stop you from having them you see. This was after you became pregnant you mean? Yes that's right, oh yes. Mm. Mind you if you didn't er lose it up to three months, there wasn't much chance after. If you kept it up to three months there's cat in hell's chance you'll lose it after that. But erm if you took these pills religiously, some of them you would probably lose it. That all depended on how strong you was internal you see. If you were very strong internal well you wouldn't lose it. But er And where did people get these pill from? Chemist mostly, erm erm chemist and er er not health stores, there's one on Road, used to be one, not Road, one on Road now. Er herbalists you mean ? That's it. And there was one in ,, he's packed up cos they've these houses. They Were they sold openly? Well yes, yes they was. Mm. Er only th back counter effort was er Slippery Elm, that was a back of the counter sort of thing, Slippery Elm, because it was dangerous practice. Slippery Elm you see you had to tape it down to a fine point and then insert it you see, and if you didn't get the right place well it'd kill you. Well everything's dangerous practice really where speaking pills and all the lot. I still I still think they are today, and er, there was the Slippery Elm and then of course there was these backstreet effort. Yes there was one in . She went to prison for seven years when she was caught. Now she used to used a crochet hook, yeah. But the whole point was, my mother-in-law told me this, when I was very young. You see, the the erm wait a minute the womb is like two knuckles together like that,wh when you conceive they close like two bones you see they close, and they if you want to get rid you've got to open it which is which is damned hard work and of course terrible pain attached to it. You couldn't open it less with force, an it's great force. Anyway then as I say they used to have these this back street effort and if you do it yourself you could do it with erm the enema syringe. Could do it with the enema syringe in the bath. That was another way of doing it. And when did you first know about these kinds of methods of abortion? Well I got to know about them when I first got married, when I was in the back street, you know in the terraces. You get to know from there. Then of course at I mean you, at you could all sorts of things from there. In factories you hear a lot, in factories. Everybody talking, everybody's giving each other the gen of what to do and where to go and what have you. Bit I learnt quite a lot in, from the back you know, in the terraced. They knew everything bar the kitchen sink, what to do and what not to do. Everything was a dangerous practice though by the same rule. You were damn lucky if you survived the ordeal. But you can well imagine. So if you wanted to end a pregnancy it wouldn't er be a problem finding out about it? Oh no, no there was too many things to be had then. Too ma mind you it's easy today with that p , I don't think that pill's reliable. It's not, anybody with blood trouble they couldn't take it. No. No they couldn't but in our days, in the younger days, to keep off it was the French letters. That was the only thing, was it? That was actually the only thing and then the sponges after that. The, I tell you that place that they had in Street used to ins insert the sponges. The clinic, we're talking about ? Yes that's right yes. They inserted the sponge. That's what you went there for then. Then of course failing that, if you didn't want that doing you'd er try the French letters and they were supposed to be er you know supposed to be intact and supposed to be the thing. Unless they of course there were different sorts of that you know even. And er it had been known for them to split. Mm. And the sponges had been known to move and not be right and even today they've when they've had this er what is it, this er operation for it they've conceived after haven't they? Yes they have. What was the view amongst men and women in those times, was preventing having children regarded as a as a woman's job? Or was it something men took responsibility for? Well, well I don't know, I think, well the men u of course we didn't use the French letters did we? So I mean if the man was going to take it on himself I mean er he used the French letter then when that clinic started up as I would say, the women would go there you see stop that lark because they didn't even they didn't even let, er take very kindly to the French letters some of them didn't you know, the men. But er I should say myself that er it all depended on the man really you know in a way didn't it, either one way or th other. It all depended on the man. And then a lot depended on the women as well hand on till death well you what do you expect to be pregnant next morning. Don't you? Mm. You see that's the trouble you see every individual is different in the make up of life they are, so some'd get pregnant by oh you might as well say looking at one another and another one they might perhaps go years and not get pregnant. In my case you get pregnant at every verse end, cos I came of a big family you see, mm. So after you'd had your three children did you get pregnant again? Ooh crikey aye, yeah didn't get, didn't have any did as well my word. Wha yes I did several times but I didn't carry on with them no . No what did you do to stop them? Got the pills, yeah Did they always work? Well most of the time yes Doctor pills were very very good in those days and then of course gin and loads of Epsom Salts brought you down to last leg, no wonder I've got arthritis. Erm it was a load of Epsom Salts and er and a lot of gin and hot baths, that brought it on sometimes. And then again I tell you you could use the enema, and that er but er mostly it would you know you would get right again, but it took some doing, not easy. Was there ever a time when you had to go in for more drastic measures? Well the enema's a drastic measure. I never went to anybody. No. Never. I could never allow anybody to do anything for me, can't now. I'm so self reliant that I if I was going o do anything it'd have to be me that would do it, for the simple reason I couldn't trust anybody else, not in that particular thing anyway. But was this very common amongst people you were living with, were they, was it very common to to stop pregnancies like this ? Oh yes it was. Oh yes when we were younger, it was common. In all these with what you know they'd have children by the galore in these er terraced houses. All taking stuff, first one then another. Yeah. Then factories as well when the War was on. That's when the War was on you see, things got worse, they were all in the family way, all them as could be in it. Mm, believe me all trying to get rid. Was. I'd got two pals that tried to get rid, they did get rid eventually, yeah. Do you know anything about erm people who did abortions in back streets? Did I know? Did you know any I didn't know the person but I knew of her and I knew a friend of mine went to her, this is the one that did seven years. Mhm. She was in the back streets. Yes she did seven years. So And you told me that she used to use a crochet hook. Ah yeah they used crochet hook they did. Mm. Fine instruments weren't they, blimey. What sort of person would she have been, I'm I'm wondering whether she would be doing this for money or was she be doing it because she really cared about people . Oh yes, money. Oh you had to pay her, obviously, mm, yeah, did it for money. They all do, don't do these things for love, do they? No. Was it always women, It was a woman that it was a woman that did it. That was a woman. Oh I didn't know of any other, only knew the one. But she was well known, whe was well known all over . Yes she was. My friend went to her, she didn't get rid. No she went and had the abortion but she had the child eventually. Mm. He took her back when he come from the War . Oh dear, it makes you laugh don't it. The family was against it but still he stuck to her. No I bet the lass must be getting on now. Mm. Tried ever so hard to get rid but she couldn't, she didn't get rid of it, the other two did. Mm. They did yes. But you was with it all the War, even before the War, and then when the War came, and of course you've got a fair amount when the War came on you see. Mm. Yes you've got knowledge all the time with living with people around you. It was, the back streets were where a lot of this business was. People had got no money you see having a load of kids and they keep always being in the family way, naturally trying to get rid of them you see because they didn't want them obviously. I wouldn't say that's because of money today would you? No. No, no, it's not money today actually is it? Not so bad as it was then in those days. It was bad cos there was no money, no money about at all, nineteen twenty six strike and what have you and no there was no money at all so people didn't want their babies did they? No. Mm. Erm was this something that you talked about with your husband when you found you you were pregnant, erm did you discuss it with him at all? He didn't use to like ti, never, he was always terrified at what I wouldn't do next. Mm. Yes Mm. No he was always terrified at what I'm going to do next. I remember him being in a pub a while back and a woman saying to him, What's your wife going to do? He said, Madam, I never know what my wife's going to do she's so unpredictable. I was Would he rather you had the children then? Well I think he would've, he was very fond of children you know. Yes he didn't like me to make, he liked, he didn't like me to anything that was going to upset me. At all, any drastic measures what so ever. He'd he never liked it. No, never. No. I was wondering whether it was common for women when they were found they were pregnant to talk amongst their women friends and really leave the men out of it as it were. Oh ah we used to get together and we used to discuss each other you know what we could take and what we couldn't take. We didn't used to talk to the men about ti obvious. Never talked to the men about it. doing it at the back of their, at the back. Without them knowing, most of the time. I can only really remember one occasion when my husband knew that I was I was taking Pills at the time, I think I took about twenty eight in one night. pills, that's the only time he ever knew. And he was furious. He didn't he didn't approve of it, so you, we didn't talk to your husband about it. No you go together with the women, same in factories, they're all talking about different things of what you're doing and what you can do. As I say sometimes it was it was er it worked and sometimes it didn't. If it didn't work well you just made yourself ill for nothing. And it makes you wonder as well if it didn't revolve back onto he children you know. Yes. You've got to watch that you see, did it revolve back on the children. It's up to thee months, I say after three months no good taking anything at all because you'd never lose it, not after three months. At three months it is the weakest of the womb, that is li that is for everyone, if anybody's got a weak inside well they's lose it, they's be liable to lose it more than anybody else with out taking anything. I tell you one that's got a strong inside, you manage up to three month but you're no good after three months. It's a waste of time. What about doctors in those days, did they give anybody advice about erm Just tell you not to do it. The doctors were very keen you know very keen, and if actually if they had to go anywhere when there was trouble you know say you'd got haemorrhage or anything like that they were supposed to report it you know. Mhm. Obviously did do a thing. Yes the er the doctors were very very keen in those days they'd repo , I remember Doctor telling me about a case on . And I was very young, somebody'd used Slippery Elm, and she'd died. Mhm, mhm. Yeah. And what would happen when somebody was reported, would it then become a police case? Well I should say yes they would, I should say there was trouble for them obviously when it was reported. Yes I think they was had up, if they were alive t , excuse me, to tell the tale. Ooh yes, they'd be had up. O on the other end did did erm doctors give any advice about contraception, such contraception as there was at that time? I can't remember him telling me much at all, not . No I can't. Well perhaps you might have more contact with the nurse erm the district nurse. They didn't tell you anything. Didn't know much theirselves, any more than these do today. Mm. They tell me I know more than them. But you said you you when I asked you about the clinic on Street you thou you thought had heard of it. I did, I felt sure er I probably went there once. I cou I fel felt I could m when you said the name it struck me very forcibly. I felt sure that I went there but I don't think, I don't know what happened but I don't think they were ever so successful really. I don't think the men minded really you know, having these things inserted, it saved them a lot of trouble. Mm. It did but er it's a two way switch this business you know, you've got to er you've got to be together on the job haven't you really two sw two way switch. Mm. It's what I always think about it. Yes. What have we got? We don't want Oh good. Did Mm. you manage your sums at school today? Yes. You did. Good boy. Now what do you want to do first? Er Reading? spelling. Spelling. Now Oh should have a pencil in the bag Hopefully hopefully the baby'll be asleep in a few minutes. Erm here. Snip, snap and snub. So do you want to do this first? Yes. And Mummy'll put on some coffee for Daddy. Good boy, darling. Good boy. How many times, five? Six. Two, three, four five, six, good. Machines Work For All . I'm going mum. Good, but I think we should be slightly bigger, Grant. Mummy was as school as, as though er a too small, teacher used to smack us. We did, we used to get the ruler across the knuckles when mummy was in primary school. That's why we were taught to write beautifully I suppose. Snip, good and Mummy'll see if Daddy's make the coffee Oh she should be in bed. Mummy has forgotten the milk. I think we'll put it to off just now, Grant. Yes, because because there's a pause. Good Is that your homework that you've got? Yeah and it's just gonna finish it. Jus just spell them to me and then he's got to read. S N Snip I P, S N A P snap S N O S N O B. Or do you still O. Good boy. Good boy Now now we're gonna do my reading, Dad. Well before you do that what about So how many pictures, Grant? what about doing it without looking at the book? I think it's jolly good. Dad! Can I just go No, how do you Spell them to daddy again first darling and then how do you spell snip? you can read your book. Without looking at the book. Twenty three to thirty two S I No, snip. How do you spell snip? Snip S N I P Come on darling, you can do it . S I No, S N I P S N I P how do you spell snip? S N I P, you do it, no? How do you spell it? There's snap S N A P Grant, how do you spell snip? Come on, darling you can spell so well! You can spell so well! You've gotta get on without looking at the book, Grant. If you, you can't do it looking at the book. That's no use. That's been recorded. Well, we're doing it, normally. Snip S N I What's that P! Again. Three times. S I N No, it's P N Oh Grant, you're so good darling, normally. S N I P, snap and snub. Grant! Never mind. Oh Pages twenty three to thirty two. You did a lot last night, Bobby. Oh that's up to the last page. I only got this book last week. He can read beautifully. I'm so delighted. Aileen's amazed and Harry used to be a teacher, Bobby Well if the spelling is good. she's a amazed because erm This is Come on Grant! Grant! He likes the bear . Is baby asleep? would you like a coffee just now or tea or coffee? Grant! Come on! We've got this homework to finish. Oh finish his work first. Where are you? Albert! Come on darling! Would you like a drinkie? You've been outside? Good boy. Come and have a drinkie then. Come on. Good boy. He's pretending it's not there. Should've got him to do it first. Come darling. You've done well. No! Come on! Come out now! No! Yes! Come on. Look look at it. He's got, no, just do it normally. That's how you do it normally. Come on now. Snip! Jus just think how it's pronounced. Snip! Snip. I'm not doing it now. You're not doing it enough till you doing now come on. Snip. Come on. Snip. Oliver hit him though, Bobby. S N I P you can do it. That's excellent! Right. Snap! S A N P Snap! S N Snap! S N I P That's snip! Snap is A. Just listen to how it's pronounced. It's pronounced N A I N Snap! S N A P. Snap! S N A P. Grant, come on! S N A P I'm gonna rub that out! Good boy You're not going to rub it out. Good boy then come on page twe It's just normal conversation. That's exactly what we're having. page twenty three to No thirty two, Grant. I'm sorry. Twenty three to thirty two. No, he hasn't finished this yet. He hasn't finished this yet! Snap! Come and S see N A P he's left her in the car. Well she should be in bed! She should be in bed. Right, you're ready to do your spelling now? Yes Okay, we'll start with snip again then. How you spell spell snip? S N I P How do you spell snub? Snub. How do you spell snub? S N I P That's snip Snip good. How do you spell snub. S N, S N A P That's snap. Snub! Snub! you're saying them, you're saying them both at once. Come on, S N A P, darling learn to spell them you don't give them an autograph. Jus listen you can pick it up by the way Snub! Snub! Can I have it? Don't wanna Snub! I want to do Can I one! If you don't do better I'll count three, you go to bed. Now please yourself! Snub! One S O Snub! S N O B Good boy! That's U B That's it! okay? Yes. Snap! S N A P! Excellent! Okay, I think you've had enough. Okay, what else have you got to do then? Some reading next? Reading Page twenty three to thirty two, darling. No Right sing the bear went over the mountain? Okay. I'm not singing it. together. Come on Grant, like a singing kettle. Oh the bear went over the mountain the bear went over the mountain Come on Grant, it's you that's gotta do it, not mummy or me. the bear went over the mountain to see what he could see . Grant, if you could You sit down and She can't sing she's too young. you should be in bed, you naughty come and sing with What, what are you doing up? Well You should be in bed The bear went over the mountain, the bear went over the mountain, the bear went over the mountain to see what he could see . Good. Next page, darling. Space Man. Sunday night Come on, Grant. It was Sunday night and Scott was watching Space Man on television. Scott had watched him get into the rocket many times and he dreamed about going with Space Man. It would be fun if I could get into the, that rocket too, thought Scott. It would be fun to go far out into space. That was the one thing Full stop. Scott thought about. He was fast asleep before Space Man had finished his trip. Scott began to dream. Good. The time had come for Space Man Scott to go to the moon! He would be the first boy to land on the moon. Scott walked outside and looked up at the rocket. The rocket was as tall as seven houses. It was as tall as seven houses. This rocket was, this Scott said that that would take him to the moon. Scott climbed inside the rocket. The men were getting ready for blast off. Ten, nine, eight, seven, six, five, four, three, two, one! Blast off ! Space Man Scott be began has His. his trip to the moon. On and on into space went Scott Seven. Then a part of the rocket fell away. When Scott looked out, he could see the stars and many flashing lights. Part of the time Scott talked on the rocket's radio. Part of the time he just looked out into space. The rocket came to a stop at Space Station. Some works at the station Some workers. some workers at the station took Scott inside. New line. They asked him they asked him to remember all the things he could about the trip from earth. Then the men talked about other rocket About the other. about the other rocket would take him That would take him. on to the moon. They helped Scott get ready. In the morning, Scott, three other men got into the moon rocket. Again he were ready to go. Ten, nine, eight, seven, six, five, four, three, two, one! Blast off ! Away went the rocket with Scott and his friends inside. Away it went on its long trip to the moon. As last At. it, at last they landed on the moon. Scott and the men got out and looked around. What a strange place it was. Look here, look here Scott, said one men Man. one ma one, said one man. Do you see that big brown thing that looks a boat? You live on that boat. That's the earth. That's what your home looks like from up here on the moon. How strange it was fro for Scott to see. That His. his home was a round planet far out in space. One man had a shovel. He wanted to take some things from the moon back to earth with him. The other men looked around and talked on the radio. Scott followed the men. He was not looking where he was going He was, he was looking . Yeah okay, sorry, you're right he was not looking where he was going, where he was going And. and he fell down. Down, down, down Scott fell. The dream was over and so was Scott's trip to the moon. Well, said his mother, what are you doing down there on the floor? Scott laughed I just fell off the moon. He said what a dream I had . Very good. Any more homework? Well that's excellent, darling. Any more homework? No That's all. That's it I, I think Aileen's amazed how well he can read. Aileen's amazed, Bobby. Yeah She used to be a Look at him teacher and she can read, he can read so beautifully. Aileen, do you remember last year and you had the trampoline in the back garden, Grant, on the lawn and you started her off. I mean I was appalled because she kept making such a lot of mistakes. You haven't looked for it? I was mortified mortified . Do you remember the mistakes she made, Grant?mummy, mummy, mummy, mummy could hardly stop laughing because you could go through and she's older than you, but Aileen thinks you're wonderful. I think you can read beautifully. You've done really so well. So you've nothing else? Do you want some sums? Want some sums? No! Going to see the baby Goodnight, Annabel and er is it too late for Bob's computer for Grant Bobby? I don't know. Do you want to play computer game? Yes ! Leave it up to you. Yes ! I feel that if he got extra, I feel he got extra work, homework, school work and things. No so young. I don't want to Because there's in there For what? Shall I get a shall I? Yes and she sent for one of your, you know, help you with your Thank you. sums. Your sums all right I'm looking for concentrating sums at school because Bobby, every night and I feel that sums are the Och! It splattered important thing on me! Mum! Annabel! That's Mummy's, give it back. Grant, it's twenty to nine. Where are you going with that tape, Grant? that tape. Do you want to play scrabble? Look Isobel Let me take that let me take that Okay the good one, look. Okay. Where's your school bag? Put these away in your bag? Yes. Bobby, can Grant have some money for lunch? Now Daddy give you a pound this morning, Grant and you got thirty pence change Haven't got much change I've only got another pound. Oh Good! So he needs forty. I've only got a pound. Well, if Daddy gives you a pound again, Grant So that's sixty pence in thirty today and thirty tomorrow. I know. Good boy. Bobby. And I have You've gotta get quite a lot for seventy pence! Are you going away to Glasgow tomorrow? No, darling, mummy went at the weekend . Do you want Grant? I am. nice cup of tea or hot milk before you go to bed? Tea. Cup of tea? Coffee ready? Yes it's ready. Now Mummy's had that for twenty five years, now just leave it. Bobby, you gave me that twenty five years as a cheese tray, one of the lovely cheese tray it's got a smoked glass top. Yeah I've only got the base I've lost the top. Really? Now aren't they pretty Bobby, it's so much nicer to take to people than maybe chocolates or cake. The Bromley bath cubes, it's something that Dorothy would appreciate next erm month. I'm How much do they cost? I'm looking forward to that weekend break. The Bromley bath cubes they were erm I don't think they were seventy five pence each. They were originally one Is that half price? pound ten. No, they were originally one pound ten. It's lovely, I think it's much better. If somebody give things like that to me instead of maybe chocolates or cake. But Because last time we went to just cos you like soap. Well, no but I love lovely soaps. I went to see Dorothy and went to a lovely . We took her some flowers and erm I eucalyptus leaves and she thought they were lovely. Remember the carnations, we got them at one of the shops, the florist in . She, she was delighted. So do we phone them once we get to the hotel or do they contact us? Sit up! Not that way. No, no Barry'll be calling tomorrow. I'll phone him two days before for the restaurant. So when did you last, last week What I was gonna say, you're asking me, you asked me, you're asking me you asked me about Haven't you? No Dad! I can't, I can't because the day, the week after that when I should, what? But they will leave on the fourteenth? Yeah the week after that week I shouldn't have a day off Mm mm but if I work next week I'm due a day off. So it suits me to work all next week and take that day off on the Friday. Mm mm Okay, I will Hello sweetie. It's either that or taking a day's leave on the Friday. Mm mm So I'll see what John says tomorrow. It'll be a lovely break. Cos he didn't know this. No So I'll have to see what goes. Where's mummy's bed darling Are you gonna make your bed now, Annabel, again? You should be in bed Want Daddy to take you upstairs Night, night! and read you a story? No? No. Cos Grant's gone off to play with his computer for a few minutes. What you going to do? Just a short while Bobby read for twenty minutes or something. Gotta go to bed. Gotta go to You won't go to bed No oh Bobby not, Bobby Bobby can you take Oliver's Bed! drink. He says he's meant to have a drink Bed! Yes. Oliver, Bed! Bobby He's had his drink. Bed Now you come outside darling for wee wees, have you done your wee wees? Done the wee wees? He's done his wee wees. He's been outside. He's been a good boy! He's been a Good boy! good boy. Is Oliver a good boy? And when I came back, Bobby I gave Grant they and erm he must've been pretty desperate because he did a wee wee before we left and he did a wee wee before Well the just boiled! Do you want tea Oliver! Grant loves his new dinosaur books. He loves them, Bobby. I could only get two, three and four. I said to the lady have you got erm number one and she said no, just what we've got left. So it's two, three and four Dinosaurs in Space There's no more? Just those, there's four in the series? Seems to be four. Does it tell you anywhere? No, I thought it might've said at the back and Dinosaur What shop was this? It was Littlewoods actually. Littlewoods. Life after the Dinosaurs and the End of the Dinosaurs. I think Littlewoods. I'll have to try and get number one as well. And I went out to Frasers. Got my new shoes at Frasers. Erm number one it'll be lovely cos they hadn't got I think it'll be enough to get him or Lost Dinosaurs He's going to be an expert on dinosaurs. Oh I think so. I think so and his dinosaur models his erm stegosaurus and tyrannosaurus he just loves them, Bobby, he, I think he's sorry they're extinct. There they are, look! That's like the one we bought in Edinburgh, remember? I always knew them as dinosaurs but he knows And it's the he's got proper he knows the other names names for them because the stegosaurus has got teeny weeny front feet at the front and huge back legs What's that one, a dip a dip like, like a frog. A is it, a He likes the but erm That other one, what's that it's, it's the stegosaurus tyrannosaurus or something er the tyrannosaurus the tyrannosaurus. Oh no, sorry that's my fault! The tyrannosaurus has got teeny weeny front legs and big back legs. Sorry. The stegosaurus is the one That that's got the big that's his favourite things on its back like big spikes on its back. It's little and dumpy. What, this one here? What's that? No that. I think that's like the model one you bought in Edinburgh. This is that? A is it? Another dinosaur that might've had wings. This is a they've got the big horns Don't touch it. and then the has got a very big neck. Now a lot of people think something like that You see Grant has got a lot to put up with. What He's got the one with the teeny weeny arms. Remember he got one when he went Oh yes. to see them at the Dinosaurs Alive and then they went to the museum. But we got we got two in Edinburgh. We did. Is that the two we got? Oh yes. Grant, when Mummy and Daddy went when Mummy and Daddy went to Edinburgh last week, what two did we buy you the tyrannosaurus and the stegosaurus? Tyrannosaurus and er tyrannosaurus and Wasn't it the stegosaurus, no? tyrannosaurus And something else and dinosaurus And the what? Grant. This one? Yeah. How do you, how do you pronounce it? There it is, yes, remember? Look with the horns. I thought it was the ones with the big things at the back like erm fans, but actually it's erm but he really loves them. Nana's delighted Mum! isn't she? Mum! Mum! She'll have to read these books I said Mum! nothing about dinosaurs. Yes, darling? I'll only get one coffee, it's alright. Sorry, Bobby. Yes, sweetie. Yes Grant, what do you? Er can I get the budgie out to my room? The one in the Grant waiting ages for. Don't tell me which one it is. You can only play your computer for twenty minutes, Grant cos it's late. Don't tell me which one it is . You, you have to stay there so you, it, it's actually a disk Give Daddy a surprise and then he can come up and play the computer. Mum, can you Can you tell Mummy which one to put on? Er forgotten, er You haven't. oh Space Man Two Space Man Two? I think it's Space Man Two Do you like that one? you can use er whatsit? It's not the dipstick it's the whatsit? Joystick The joystick. Dipstick Dipstick That's for cars. Cars. Silly Daddy. And what would you like They can't tell, cos somebody comes up they says used a , used a Would you like some? used a keyboard. Would you like some juice or anything? I'm getting it confused am I? Yeah but you just put this if it says joystick er But it doesn't say Ask Daddy that it just says keyboard it doesn't mention, oh it says what is it, that other, that other word er Joystick. inter interfaces or something. Does it? Yeah we haven't got one of them so Look at Grant's bulbs! it's a lot easier to use a joystick cos the, the keys are awkward to use. Aren't they lovely? They're starting to open Yeah, I'm just look Grant, in a few days time Mum Mummy did try to help them just a teeny weeny bit cos hyacinths, he's going to show them at the Airdrie Town Hall, Bobby. I think it's the Town Hall, isn't it Grant? When you taking them to school? Just just gently, gently. On the Must be tenth, I think. Tenth. That one's coming up No two weeks yet. I thought you said Two weeks this week Annabel's! Friday's the last day, I think and then they're showing on the s oh Bobby! What? Well, will you see them being shown? Oh yes, because we're on the fourteenth, so it's the week before. So it's next weekend. Is it on all week? Sixth seventh eighth, ninth I just wondered Oh no it'll be next week at Not next week next Saturday What a week on Saturday? That's my weekend off as I'm working Oh no Bobby I'm working at the weekend it'll be the fifteenth. It's the fifteenth. So The weekend when we . Oh no! Oh Grant! Oh no! I said to you and Dad. What? Oh no! Is that a nice book? Do you like that one? We'll have to ask Mrs if she'll go and see the main Is it pretty? judge. Oh Grant! I'm Hey, are you going to your bed? I'm gonna tell this No? this if my teacher mentions, if my teacher mentions You need your beauty sleep. Well I think I'll try and put the baby up to bed again. Come on Grant Dinosaurs! or else there won't be time left to play. Look! It'll be your bedtime. That's the erm ostrich big dinosaurs so I'd like to show you just how big their faces were because look at the height of that ostrich. Yeah Yes? I want a chair. Grant, you've got two in your bedroom. You've got two basket chairs in your bedroom. He wants one of the chairs, Bobby, out of the Bobby, he wants one of the big chairs upstairs out of your room. Oh no, Grant, you don't need that. Well you can if you want, but You can't, Grant! Okay, put, put these away. You can look at that one. You look at that, that's Annabel's one. Bobby Annabel one. You Dad! Egg! Dad ! Yes Egg ! Egg. Oh that's what you like, egg. Do you like egg? egg ! Egg. Are you hungry? Egg Do you like egg? I like egg. You like egg very good. Egg. Egg. Oliver's Oliver's? Oliver's what? Let me have a look. Go walk! Let's have a look. Oh it's cans. It's not Oliver's cans though. No that's Mamma! strawberries and raspberries. Is that mamma's? That's mamma's. Mamma's Mamma's toilet paper. Mamma's toilet paper. Is that the kind that she likes? Mummy likes peach and pink. Bobby! Mamma ! To Annabel from Grant Mamma's Cos Grant's got lots and lots of books and quite a lot now but she loves books and she takes care of them as well. Look! A Son of a White Horse that your book from France mummy bought you Daily Express today? She loves books It's the same it's the same thing today. Er Let's have young, gifted and demanding it says. Her have said and she went along, Bobby and they found her so brilliant Is that the same one? That's her? Erm she She can use a computer yes, that's right she enjoys and her mummy was so sweet. The little boy looks like his mummy. Catherine Tells you things she should, she should be able to read when she's three or something? Jodie oh that's Jodie Bobby! Right,have you starting to talk early and with a wide coverage unusual it is for their age example, classical music for a three year old, reading by the age of three, early ability and enjoyment of real curiosity about how things work Mm mm not just to repeat the question why? Logical ability, proficient in chess, good at puzzles or special toys such as Lego . That's your favourite, Lego. You like Lego? She loves Lego and she especially like Lego? Where's your Lego? But to make them that Bobby, for her teeny weeny hands, how she can manu manipulate. The, Grant's Lego, the big Yes Lego she can handle them beautifully, even Sheila Lost a Lego? when Sheila was here last week and Linda, and Linda's little boy Christopher and he's only about a month younger than Annabel and erm she feels the bits would be too tiny for him. He would eat them. Cos one day we found him and he was choking to death practically and erm er Tam, Linda's husband turned him upside down and smacked his back, he'd eaten a one pound coin. Blimey! Now he could've choked and died! Hey, you're damaging that, Annabel. So the last time, remember Don't do that to it! remember the last time Linda was here she came on her own and her father Okay, okay dropped her and then her husband picked her up and the Reverend the Reverend Peter came that day? Yeah And erm well he came to the door and Linda and the little, the little boy Christopher they were upstairs. But previous to that Linda had said that she was terrified to get Lego for the little boy. She was terrified when him and Annabel was playing it. I said she's okay and she can handle it beautifully, and she's never eaten any little parts yet and some of the arms, Bobby, are tiny! So she thought, well she saw Annabel handle it so beautifully she thought she might get some for Christopher for his Christmas. But obviously she hasn't got them because erm she would have said when she was here last week. She last week. But Be a singer, sing a song Bobby, and it's to move their fingers and to use their imagination with pictures. It's good for them. It, it is, it's so good for them! And for that things that erm Tupperware that Totem Pails, and you stack up the pails. Yeah I think they were about twelve pounds just for a, just some little things that you can use just like a little seaside pail but the totem pails, totem poles, it was totem pails Your turn to phone them up? Erm it's my turn actually erm So you'd do it at the weekend? That was last week, no I phoned her on Sunday. Mamma! I go phone ma. You phoned Mamma? I did phone through the week because, yes it was somebody to phone you. because she wanted to watch that programme Mummy! and she insisted it was on at quarter past seven and it Daddy! was on at quarter to. Erm the one of David Jason's Sorry I'm still not clear. Is it her turn to phone you or your turn to It'll be her turn to phone, I think she'll phone me next weekend, this coming weekend. So I'll get Oliver booked in at kennels and erm Oh blast! I'd forgot all that. he's beautifully groomed erm Sheila thought he was lovely last week. I think it's the first time she'd actually seen Oliver look clean. But, but I think, Bobby, he's got a severe chill. Is Sheila this weekend? winter time, did you You could've taken Oliver taken Oliver and left him there. Are you off next week? Are you off next week? I'm gonna take him up, yeah. Oh, I suppose there's er Did you want to or I was thinking I haven't seen my dad since what, Christmas? Christmas time. And it's not gonna be before April. It is Iris's turn to call us. Mm It's Iris's turn to call us really but, but I, I did think about Iris earlier and I should really phone just to see how your dad is, Bobby because it's really up to her just to see about the weekend and much times that I've phoned the hospital recently. Yeah. Erm I'm just wondering if he ever gets the messages to say I've phoned. They're always so busy. Well, I don't know, maybe But they are busy. I don't know! You must miss him terribly, Bobby? But I think he's quite settled in hospital. I think he's quite settled and Oop! Pardon me, excuse me. quite happy I think. Pardon! Pardon! Although it is a worry, Bobby. Erm but dad visits him quite a lot. Well the ladies who wait ladies oh no, I can't go the next week! Why? Because I'll still be covering for John Oh Besides, I'll have to oh that er garden party I was telling you about Yes? it is the Royal Garden Party. Is it? Yeah. Yes. I thought it was something to do with something else but, you know a bit of a I thought it might've been to a Royal Garden Party I don't think cos that's Yes, May I've got to do, it's May's stuff. So, just have to wait and see whether we get an invitation or not. Oh, that'll be nice. Don't know when I'll find out. I've really enjoyed this. I didn't realize it was that. I told him it must've been about the Royal Garden Party. So that'll be alright. It's probably Queen I think it's got a preference for but erm I'm I'm not sure he'll be there but Mm? I'm not sure whether Oh I should imagine suppose it will. it will be. Mm It'll be the Queen, won't it? Well, let's keep your fingers crossed. Well Grant should have tape loaded by now so I suppose I'd better go and see how he's getting on. Want to check it? So, yeah I'll go, I'll go and check. Now darling, let's get you to bed. Right, Annabel we'll try again. This is one minute past nine. Off to your beddy this time. Do you want to go to bed with Daddy? I see you! Mummy put Oliver outside. Outside Oliver! Okay! Beddy again. Yes darling. Okay. Night, night. Good girl. Bye! Night! Night Annabel! Good girl. Bed ! Bed! Is the light on, Bobby? Okay. Come and see mummy, darling! Outside! There's Oliver. Outside! Well you can go outside in a few minutes. Now Go outside! Grant'll be in from school in about Go outside! ten minutes darling. What do you want? Go outside! Do you want to go outside? Do you want your coat? Well let mummy fasten your shoes first and Grant'll be in from school in a few minutes. Oliver! Come on, darling! Grant'll be in from school in a few minutes. He will! Do you want to go outside now? Good girl! Mummy put on your coat? And hat? Clever girl! Mum ! Oliver's lead, darling I don't think so because you choked Oliver one day before and daddy said no. You mustn't put on Oliver's lead. We only put on his lead when we go to the vet. Now, sweetie! Would you like a drinkie? Would you like some No ! some cocoa? No ! Why! And we'll get one ready for Grant. Couldn't you get your tooth tablet today? Tooth tablet? Where's tablet? There's your piggy! Do you want another sip at it? My This one? Snowman ! Snowman! Snowman! A snowman for me, make up your snowman just now. Snowman now, mummy. Or this one! Would you like a drinkie in snowman? Clever girl! There's your tooth tablets. We should get Grant's all ready because mummy forgot to give him one before he went to school. Which colour would you like? A pink one? Pink one? Grant said they've a nice flavour the pink ones! And a pink one for Grant. He'll be home in a few minutes. No! That's Grant's, darling. You can only have one. They're dangerous. Good for your teeth. Makes your teeth nice and strong! And you've had Cackle! your Super Ted tablet today your Cackle, Mum! vitamin pills. Cackle! Okay snowman cup Snowman, yes! He's a lovely Snowman! Snowman! snowman! Where's a snowman's nose for mummy. Where's his nose? Nose! He's got a carrot for a nose and big leaves like erm, don't know what they are big leaves for eyebrows and he's got a lovely green and orange scarf, stripy scarf. You take care. Watch your lovely books, okay? I'm gonna put Grant's tablet up here. Annabel, would you like some milk? Drink for Oliver? Drinkies? Want some milk? It's too early for your tea yet. Good boy! Clever boy! Drinkie all up!darling. Is that what's cackle? And mummy get your hat and you go outside with Oliver You get down now! Oh look at your dress! What's that, lipstick? Nice lipstick, you naughty little girl! You not big girl? darling. Let me get your coat. Just a minute. Right. Now leave Oliver just now. Mum! It's nothing! It's cooker! Cackle, Mum! Cackle! Clever girl! Snowman! Snowman! Good girl. Daddy's late night, tonight. Daddy's working late! He'll be in about nine o'clock. So we'll have our tea about maybe half past five and just you and mummy and Grant. Alright! Yes? Yes. Grant'll like after school. Oliver! Outside just now darling! Mummy give you a comb. Clever girl! Mummy best open the door for Grant. Did you have a nice day at school? You did? Yeah. Look at Annabel she looks like a little snow baby, darling! Looks like a snow baby. Grant, it's not tonight it's May the eighth, the eighth of May, your thing for the Boys' Brigade. I had to phone Mrs erm, erm Reverend 's wife and she said, she said I couldn't tell you, Mrs but she said erm phone Mrs . So I phoned Mrs I eventually got through to her then I had to phone the prison to tell daddy because he was going to go in and erm I mean I, and then I go back to work, Grant. Mummy ! Cos I said there was some Mummy ! display, Grant there'll be a display Mummy ! Leave mummy just now, Annabel, mummy'll Mum ! It's too cold Mummy! Her hands are absolutely blue, Grant. Come on! So did you have a nice day at school? You did, so you're playing at the weekend. So mummy er Isn't going to school. spoke to Mrs had a lovely time. She said well, tell Grant, she said he can have a reprieve, she said it's May the eighth and, and she says, she probably heard me say it was Friday and that's when I thought it was this Friday, so I had to phone erm the receptionist at daddy's works, so she was going to pass on the message to daddy just to tell him just to work late as usual, Grant, rather than come in at teatime and then go back to work again. So can mummy take your coat, darling? Yes ! What do you want? Your, your little shovel and spade? This? I am not wearing them tight trousers again ! Why? They're too tight ! Oh look, there's your spade, darling! Look, there's your little spade. Did you have a nice day at work? Well, not too bad. Cos the car had to get fixed up. Yes. Did you have a quiet Saturday morning while ? Well it's just normal really for a Saturday. Yes. Mum, can I play outside? Shh down just wait a minute while mummy but Jack said he couldn't look at it just now he was busy so listens to daddy. so I've gotta go back there. They're gonna phone me up and tell me when it's so Of course A mess! So you put it in at what? Quarter to one? Ten to one? Er yeah, quarter to one it was. Mum ! So last week, when did you put it in, Monday? Er Monday initially? Monday night no it was supposed to be the Monday, wasn't it and then they didn't have the part Can I borrow And they phoned Glasgow? I think about Tuesday Yes, that's right, Tuesday night Tuesday, same as it was before. So I Mum! So do they think it might be the new clutch or was it the when you went No, it's not the clutch. Mum! No, I, I said to Mr Mum! Mum ! so, yeah the But I thought the coil drove that thing and that's made it juddery recently I'm assured it had made it juddery, yes? Mum! Yes, darling? It might be juddery as you know, but You can play cowboys and indians! Course you can. Cowboys and indians ! I've got my belt. I've got my That's Lee's gun, Bobby, when are you going to take it to I've got my weather school? I've got my That wood gun, it's lovely! I've got my weather shoes. I've got my cowboy I've got my horse. I've got the one to catch. Can I play the Sheriff? I've got the rope. And give American pie And I've got er in one pocket I've got rope to You've got rope for Alison I've got rope to catch people and to climb and in, and th and in the other pocket But cowboys used to use rope I've got and to catch horses. and another er pocket I've got the rope to tie up my horse. Oh Oliver There's a blackbird there I'm gonna shoot it! It's a blackbird Bang! Bang! Bang! Bang ! Be like birdie sing that song Yeah Oliver! And then, daddy. There used to be a song on television, Grant. Annabel Cowboys and indians. Cow I shot the sheriff but I should've shot the deputy Grant, I'm gonna be sheriff. You're under arrest. Daddy was You're under arrest for, for having shot that Bobby! man. Bobby! So you're my prisoner now I'm gonna put you in jail Bobby! cos I got What's this baby want? Can I tie my horse up ? I'm tying my horse up. What do you want, darling? I thought you might put you in jail for that Do you want to go outside? oh you're going outside? Dad I'm going Off you go then. Bye, bye. I've got weapons in my pocket. What kind of weapons? Ropes to catch people. That one's Ropes? that one's to catch that one's That's against, that's against the law, son. The last time he was So you're under arrest for taking it off He went I'm tying my horse up ! and Bobby! yeah I'll just tie your horse up there. That's, that's against parking regulations. Oh Bobby!difference? Look Let me get me tights. There's some tights. No Bobby Oh that let's have Yes, sheriff wants to tie your horse up here. Don't want you, I don't want you to tie your horse up here ! No, that's a sign there saying no, no tying horses there. Little baby! It says The traffic warden'll come along and and book you for parking horses There's no traffic wardens ! There is there's, there's horse The last ti traffic wardens. the last time Grant went up to Mum's with Leon and taught him how to use Well a rope. Didn't he erm Does he still live that's not up on the farm? Yeah that's not the one. That's not the one. That was quite good a difficult stairs and the bannister. Yes. Bobby? It's what I Very good. And Bobby did you see Moira last night? And Look! Look ! And how is she? She's alright, yes, she's alright. They were complaining about their telephone bill it was er thirty seven pounds. Was it! Ha, ha, ha, ha Of course. How much have we gotta pay? Is he paying more than us for apparatus cos I think they've bought one phone but the other one But we are we own our phones. Yeah, but they've but they don't, they own one. Mm mm Look, Dad! They must rent the other one so that's what he's complaining about the charges. He says and save all these charges. Dad, can you come upstairs and But I think he's thinking of buying another phone. and But it's still ridiculous, Bob Not just now, I, I got Dad! Grant! I can't just now! Please! I can't! it's still ridiculous because erm Yeah, but just a wee minute! No, I can't, I can't leave it. I want to show you! Look, Grant! Just give me five minutes, okay? I'm playing cowboys and indians and No, you're supposed to be in prison. Grant, the people could come back in a few minutes So you have to go through them. Who? to tell daddy they've repaired the car. Daddy has to leave it at the garage. They've got to repair daddy's car because it could be dangerous, Grant. There's not horse traffic wardens. I mentioned to Mrs Bobby, was it last week when we went to Glasgow? Yes, last week. And I said we just come out of the drive went across the road and there was just a bus behind us and erm I said the car almost came to a halt. I said and when we got to Glasgow I said there were people in a van blasting their horn they were absolutely mortified because Mortified! it came, it did it almost came to a halt again and it could've been dangerous as well you, children in the back, two children in the back! Yes, it's stuttery. Oh it was unpleasant! fixed it now. fixed it reasonable. I also said every morning you went to work you were terrified, Bobby. You'd sit at the gate for ages in, in the hope that the road would be clear as well. Yes, you're never sure You're never sure his car would stop, Grant and there was going to be somebody behind daddy coming up Alexander Street very, very fast and then jumped into daddy's back! It could've! So didn't you take and bumped into the back of the car! in your computer? no I've gotta, gotta go and see if Stuart's back. and I've been playing with my computer. That seems a bit silly to take five minutes to load up and I've watched, I've been watching my cartoons and you've gotta wait on T V. He can handle that computer scrabble beautifully, Bobby and he played last night on his own and he scored one thousand, was it three hundred Mummy ! and thirty nine, Grant? I think he must be Yeah! cheating. Hello Annabel! I was not ! You got computer to play for you! He did! Yeah! Yes he did! Because because Annabel and me and him were originally on the That's cheating the scrabble board and then Grant It's not cheating ! Grant decided It's not cheating. It said do, do you want the computer to have a name Yes it did, of course You've got Yes. That's cheating. It's not He's delighted you called you've called the computer mummy, ha, ha, you're cheating. Yes. That's cos she wasn't there. Mm mm. Played me one day and it played Annabel one day. Annabel she's too young. Mummy was in the kitchen here and the computer played me. Then you need It's wonderful but I do like the educational games preferably to the fun games and then you need a and it was so slow! Was slow when? It was, it's slow when you don't have the computer just doing it on its own. It's really slow. Here's a bargain for somebody who's looking for a dining room suite. What? Italian style dining room suite. Beautifully carved ornate design with four chairs and two carvers. Dralon upholstered. Cost two thousand, nine hundred and ninety five pounds, offers for around six hundred accepted . Isn't that excellent? three thousand pounds, six, six hundred. Is there a ? It says Italian style It'll be pretty. I like my lovely older-fashioned mahogany. Three thousand pounds! chairs and the leather seats. a lot of money. It'll be a lot for your young people, Grant. It says Nelsons moderate grey But for that much. Pardon? Nelsons moderate grey, leather three piece suite. Seven months old. Cost one thousand, eight hundred Mm mm accept, accept Does my horse tied up eight, nine, five . Mum bought her, mum tried to get away Parkerknoll Parkerknoll fireside she could chair, good condition mum bought her leather suite Dad ! I think it was at Maitlands the lovely shop Dad ! Dad ! Yes! Dad ! What! Dad ! Come in! And Mum got a lot of money for her suite. I still prefer my green chesterfield, Bobby and it gets so much rough treatment but they mellow. I buy used all the club money at the time when we bought it Dad, if I still had my wee Claxton Annabel could go outside and play in it. It's still out You coming in, baby! Aye. I still got Bobby her jacket'll be wet! That's your slippers. Her little close the door, darling! Mum! try and stop her. Mummy Have you brought that in to mummy, the twigs? Mum! Yes darling? I've still got the red trailer from my tractor and Mm mm I fixed on once. I fixed on to The red trailer? Mhm But Granddad Jack er put my red tractor away in the dump and it got smashed, smashed up by a digger. Why did Granddad put it in a dump or of the pocket? I got too big for it? I don't know. What did you do with the little red tractor? Did you sit in it? Oh the red one and the trailer! Yeah. Yeah but We got one! Come on, darling it'll be cold! Look at the mess Oliver's made! She took I closed it. She took out Mum ! Yes? She took out for both of them once Oh yes! and er, and er she put it and it smashed Annabel! and er, and we had to be so we got Ian's one did when we pedal up and down Ian had one as well? then, no Ian had an orange one and when we pedalled it up and down it kept falling off so Katie put a bolt in it, a wee little one and it screwed onto the tractor bit. Good. Grant, can you see Annabel's little bowl for her tea set? No. Dad! You put you put me under the desk so I've gotta get in there. No it's not! It is. Isn't! It is. I should Isn't know I'm the sheriff. Oh! Well, it's my game! No daddy's sheriff, you can do that as a sheriff. Yeah but yeah but I, I'm and I sawed through the board and you ran away so fast Oh and I got away. Well put you in You got me, you I'll have to, I'll have to arrange a hanging squad here. Dad! You go outside! I'm not going outside Go outside and come in, back in again. Too, too cold, Grant. Bang! Bang ! I got you, Dad. You're dead. Okay, that's it Bye bye, Dad. Bye bye, Annabel! Bye! Take care, darling! Bye, bye. Look! It's easy to Bobby! Could you put your glasses through behind the bar? Please. Yeah Have to get the next week. There they are, why? holidays to be won. Oh gosh! St Lucia, Seychelles St Lucia St Lucia. Yeah. When Raymond came and did the windows last week, he said he'd booked up I I've got the same time as we go to Cyprus and he hasn't actually booked a flight yet but he's got the villa cos Aily a few doors along, remember she's got a villa in erm Aye, it's near, it's near Orlando. What? Is it her villa he cleans her windows? My horse! Yes, he cleans her windows as well. Her name's Ann Dad! because he mentioned and I said is that the lady that lives in America? My horse ran away! Mummy's speaking My horse ran away so I got away. Remember last year when they went to America So the again last year, were they? Slightly younger than me erm, no, but he'd mentioned that and he said erm if he wanted to book again that she could let her, his, her villa. So it's free for October, the complete month of October and erm he hasn't booked a flight yet because the fares are so expensive. Did he tell you how much they charge? Yes. The last time you saw Raymond, remember he said it was erm, how much further. I think there's gonna be six this time. There's Raymond and his wife and his wife Sherry's I think brother and his wife and little baby and then somebody else. So there'll be six people. So they've got to book the flight but they might book it nearer the time when hopefully they'll get a cheaper flight. He's tried direct flights and so on but he thought four hundred pounds, four hundred and fifty was a bit much although he'll get the villa so cheaply. Yeah. So he goes in October you went and er same time as us Quiet, Annabel September the thirtieth, first two weeks in October, Bobby. First two weeks in October. But, that's what he wants just now but if he can get the flight then it, it could end up being the second and third or the third and fourth week. But Ann says it's free the whole month well he can't cos he's self-employed. A lovely young chap, Bobby. He's a nice young man, I like him. Very sweet chappy. Mummy! If you can say a man's sweet. Mummy! You can have this, darling Then somebody and I, and I gun shots so you are dead but I still have the weapon. Gum drops! Where did you get this stuff from? Oh Bobby! I said when you came in we made it at school We made it? Grant took it from the loft this morning. Scratch my back. No, you said handle were working! Could've been Right, okay. Dad! Look! Annabel for deputy. We haven't got a deputy so she's Sweet baby! No! She's the horse! She is! I've made her my deputy. I can make her my Dad! deputy. And you said handle were Could you put those three behind the bar? Please. What? Handle the Handle your Look at the xylophone darling. Where's Annabel's xylophone? I've I've got a Where's you xylophone, your wooden xylophone? Can't reach Give it to mummy. reach for the sky! Look! Here's your xylophone I've got this far, I've got this far on my horse so I can't, I've got Clever girl! Have you got a, a licence for your horse? Yes! Lovely music to mamma! Look! See if it's got a scale on it. Look! Do ray me far so la tee do. Do ray me far so la tee do . I have got a licence for my horse. Right. You got a, you've passed your driving test? Yes. Where, where's your licence, give me your licence. Mum! I'm Dad I could get a piece of paper and you say alright, you're okay. Yes, sweet! Here it is. That's it. That's only a provisional licence. It's not. Unbelievable! That means you've gotta put you've gotta put L plates on the back as well. you put L plates up. I have, have That's that's just Look! Look! No, you haven't passed your test yet. That Want to sing snowman? That says That says provisional provisional Want to sing snowman, darling? It says from No, it says you are allowed to ride a horse. You know I've got my tickets then from I'll have to go. our membership tickets for the Oh yes! There they are. That's our membership er members fees Mummy flying through the air and I wasn't mummy's I think that's funny cos I don't know which is which though. What? I think I put my name first or is it mummy's so I can use Bobby! Well Flying through the air Dad! But my, but Flying air save it on computer. Nineteen forty two, nineteen forty five Yeah they're in sequence Can you do it, Bobby, it's far too heavy. Far too heavy Oh! There they are. A big girl! nineteen Are you gonna be a pilot when you grow up, Annabel? Dad! I've got two, three, four and five Bobby what Are you gonna be a pilot, fly, fly through the air! Look, Dad! Two, three, four and five. Four and five. Right we'll keep those together. Dad, but that is my licence. Can I take your pen a minute? does mummy She said when she's swimming. I did! I did! Splash! I normally lose just a few pounds, Bobby. What's a matter, Annabel! lovely. She wants to fly, Bobby. She wants to fly. But she's too heavy. Well, you'll be flying in seven months' time. Bit too heavy for mummy. So you go in a plane? She loves Fly in a plane! planes, Bobby. She loves them! She made me Fly the plane! realize this time she'll Go in the plane! be in a plane. Last time she was a bit young A bit too young. Don't wanna go to beddy! beddy? Where beddy? Where's your beddy? Are you going to your beddy? Annabel go to beddy! Now this year, Bobby. Last year she was just under two? Yes, she was just under two. This time she'll be what? Three and a bit? She'll be Was she in her chair, her seat in the thing? Er yes she was still My pudding! under two. Mm mm So it'll be lovely! Yes Thrill her in her window seat, Grant You don't think that'll mean one of us will have to sit the other side of the Well Well well you could do that couldn't you providing you get opposite me? I can do it. And I could be with the children in turns. I can sit in the smoking section with you? Mm mm Good! That'll be lovely. Bobby, could you fly her through the air for a minute? Do you want to fly through the air with daddy? Every time Snowman's on, Bobby, I have to lift her up and she's heavy even though she's neat and petite, she's, she's quite erm neat and petite she is petite, but she's quite big, she's quite heavy. Let's ride horse! Look at your twig, darling! Gonna bring this in to mummy! Horsy! Horsy! you stop just let your tail It's lovely! go clippety clop Is this to mamma? your tail goes swish and away you go is this to mamma?on walls, look! Mummy's kitchen walls, darling! That's my licence. Oh careful! Ah! Ah! Ah! Oh careful! That's my licence. Is that your licence? You are are, in the are you need an E, and E ends are, are is that a proper Ride missed out the E, no that's, that's because I learned one because I want licence lessons, licence licence licence one O seven That's the number your licence? P A A A sixty four sixty four. That's my licence, so am I Good boy! No, but here's a, here's a, a stamp authorizing it, showing it's as legal cos it's not legal till the What kind of stamp stamp A circular stamp and people say on it er er District Council or something like that. How do you spell pa I'll get it off the thing You got any paper to write on Bobby! Has Bill come back to his sons again this year? Remember Don't know he went on holiday last year. I don't think so, he never said. Cos Moira often feels needs a break and then she can relax or else get some things done. Last year, remember, she did up some of the bedrooms and had them decorated, her brother decorated them and also she did the erm the tables, remember, she stripped back some tables and varnished them and she made a lovely job. There's one in her Yes, she's her conservatory and one in her she's about late seventies, isn't she? No! She No? would be sixty Elderly seven. Is she? Oh I thought she was Well, she might be sixty eight this year but she's cos she's slightly younger than dad. My dad's sixty nine. Bill's seventy five. Seventy five? We went to his seventy first birthday! Silly daddy! And that was October or November I think, if I remember rightly. I know it was a while ago. And what do you put after that? And there's no Blind Date tonight, so No, it's finished up until October Oh it is! Best of Blind Date's on tonight. Oh I thought Cilla said it was finished! It says the last programme, so is it? So it's It's the best of, for the clips? Oh, must record that. Yeah! What do you put after that? Bobby, I enjoy Blind Date. that's it. and Best of Blind Date. Cilla Black as she looks back at some of the funniest moments in the success of her matchmaking series . Here! Here! Oh thank you, right. I think she's excellent. See! There's my licence. That's your licence, right. It's expired! It's out of date! Oh! What did you write Grant, ninety one? No, it hasn't got a date on it. Dad, can I get the date on? Daddy's naughty. It's, I've been told I'm sure he's as bad to his prisoners, Grant. When, when does it expire? No, I think they like him okay. Here, two hundred Two thousand, the year two thousand The year two thousand? Up up Grant The running and jumping and standing still folk . Peter Sellers and Spike Milligan as seen by Best Sellers Bobby, yes. Best Sellers, I think it starts, what, tonight? Well, Best Sellers at nine o'clock and then Dad, there's my licence! at ten fifteen at, it says film There's my, that one that's the one Right, let's have a look, Grant er I liked him in the Pink Panther. There's no name on it. That, that could be anybody's licence! Grant, could you lean on the book please? Before you write on the table. Mum, how do you spell Ashley? A S H L E Y . Grant, you've spelt your name I've got often enough A S H L E Y Grant Ashley L E Y and ? , Oh thank you, Annabel. Lovely. Thank you! Right, er let's have a look then. Expires the year two thousand. . It doesn't say when it starts though. Maybe it doesn't start till next year though. No, it starts Help him, Bobby! He's just a little When does it start? Daddy's naughty. It Bobby! What? If they repair the car maybe in the next hour or so how long will they take, Bobby? No think it's gonna be five o'clock. Do you think so?took a little drive. It's a bleak dismal day but I quite like a little That one's not drive. Would you like to go to Glasgow? Okay! But it doesn't say you've paid your money. Oh yeah it's paid We had a lovely tra time on the train last day, didn't we darling, on Thursday? It's o it's, it's She loves the train Bobby. She absolutely loves the train. Been on the train? Toot! Toot! Been on the train? What's the train say? Train say Toot! Toot! Toot! Toot! It's What's the train say? What does the train say? Remember one day mummy forgot to put on your, your brake in the pushchair, Bobby, she went whizzing across the train Bobby! So I bought her some fruit pastilles again just while we were waiting for the train, but funnily enough, the last few times we've been at the station, Bobby That's how much money I've paid! the train's gone past and it's gone off to Clarkeston, which is five minutes up the road and then you've got to wait until it comes back again. Passes through So can I go free then! and then it goes up to Clarkeston, that's on the road up to Sheena's farm and then it comes back. So it's usually twenty five to eleven, the train I get here it's, just plenty time to eat. By the time I get to Glasgow, twenty Dad! minutes or so Can I go free now? get some shopping done, then have afternoon tea, baby and me and then come back for Grant. But the other day I was late. I got back at quarter to four so erm Okay, Grant had his key Can I get my weapons back? He was delighted to be Get your weapons back, right okay. independent. Because I need them to fight all the baddies. I give up. Do you want No, not that. She seems to be terribly erm restless. Do you want to draw, darling? Do you You've got your horse, where's your horsy? want to draw? You go on horsy? Want some Calpol? Mummy give you some Calpol? Do you want your po-po? Oh, she just refuses to use the po-po. Oh yeah! This morning I put on her little panties and You asked me, Dad! was so upset! What? You asked me if I've got, Dad, can I get that pen a minute? You've gotta take the gun Some Calpol you asked Clever girl! We maybe go to Glasgow again this week on the train. This week on the train. You asked if I've got, Dad, what's the licence for the gun? How much the licence for the gun is? A hundred pounds. Yeah but what's the licence you have, what's the licence for the gun? What's the licence for the gun? That's her Calpol finished. We'll miss church tomorrow because you've got to work. Bobby miss the church. He can go Pardon? He go Grant. uses now the reason we need, not just nuclear power of course, but all other sources of energy er is erm illustrated by these next couple of slides erm I'm sure you've seen data like this before growth in the world's population over the last er few hundred years erm over the middle ages the er world's population was fairly stable, although the birth rate was high er the death rate was equally high because of things like cholera and bubonic plague and smallpox and other things that used to kill people off in large numbers. But mainly these diseases have now been er controlled if not completely eradicated and as a result the world's population is er is likely to zoom up as you can see right off the top end of the, of the graph and we're expecting something like eight billion people er and, and still rising at the end of the, of the century and it'll be some time way into the next century before the world's population actually starts to er er to level out. So more people means more resources, in the context of today's talk, more energy resources so we're particularly keen to find all the energy resources that we er that we can. And to show you what the situation is er the world's energy demand is very likely i i i is almost certain to increase er because of development in the world and also because of the growing population er that arrow is some sort of guess as to how the world er the demand for energy worldwide is likely to increase when you set that against the curves at the bottom which show the likely projections for oil and natural gas as you can see as we get into the next century those er fossil fuels, which we've been using with gay abandon for many decades, will start to into er decline. Now I, I often gives in, in schools, and I particularly show that slide because as you can see it goes up to the year twenty forty er now I shall be a hundred and four in the year twenty forty I won't ask you to calculate what age you will be in the year twenty forty it might be quite large erm some of you are a lot younger than me of course, it could be a lot smaller, but er er showing this to teenagers, if you work out what age a teenager will be in the year twenty forty, they'll be about er in their mid sixties so this period of time, basically, is the time over which our present er generation of schoolchildren will have their adult life. So these basically are the problems that they're gonna have to er er have to face. Now uranium erm is, is er a non-renewable resource like oi oil and coal and gas but there's an awful lot of it in the world and this is erm the reserves of the energy they can give are compared to the remaining reserves of coal or and er gas, you can see it's one of the largest energy resources on on earth. To take advantage of that large amount of fuel, we have to develop what are there is the fast reactors, and this is Britain's fast reactor a fast reactor erm uses energy erm about sixty time uses uranium about sixty times more efficiently than the present type of reactors not sixty percent but sixty times so it obviously has tremendous implications for uranium resources. Erm so quite clearly this is the erm er reactor of the future. Er you must therefore ask yourselves the question, why is it therefore the government has decided to er re re remove the funding er for this particular project erm never mind they said er we now know how to build fast reactors, look there's one we've already built, a prototype we have th the, the er the th the blueprints, the drawings for a full scale version and when we actually need the fast reactors in say the year two thousand and ten or thereabouts, we'll just get the blueprints out of the filing cabinet and we will build them. Er I'm sure they didn't, I'm sure he didn't believe it either. What is likely to happen of course is that er in the year two thousand and ten when we do need these fast reactors, we'll be buying in French or Japanese technology as we've done in many other areas which is all rather sad really. Erm the erm th this shows Britain's stockpile of, of uranium this is actually depleted uranium which can be used in the fast reactor but can't be used in the present type of er thermal reactors but what you see there is virtually the er all of it,th it's, it's erm stored at a place called erm er Capenhurst in, in Cheshire on the Wirral erm and erm there's a few jars off the edge as you can see but basically that's er that's it and what you see there, in energy terms, represents erm the equivalent of our entire coal reserves. You don't have to, it doesn't have to be mined, we don't have to import it from any Arabs, it's ours, we own it and it gives us that amount of energy but only if we develop the fast er reactors. If we don't develop the fast reactors, that just becomes rather embarrassing waste and has to be disposed of. Now of course there are other er forms of erm er o o of fuel er there's coal erm and we have large stocks of coal in this country er enough for about two hundred er years er again you ask the question well why therefore is the, is the government coal cl cl closing down er a large part of the coal industry? Erm a again the answer is it's cheaper to import it from er overseas. Erm one wonders whether that's erm wise in the long term because once you've closed down a coal mine of course you can't er re-open it very easily because the roof falls in and it floods and effectively you have to start again from er from scratch. Erm probl er coal does have its problems of course erm er it does produce an awful lot of pollution. We have a large coalfired power station near where I live er in Oxfordshire er at a place called Didcot, which is also a railway er junction erm roughly halfway between Harwell where we, we invented er nuclear power and, and Culham where they're working on nuclear fusion which is a different kind of nuclear power, roughly halfway between the government decides to build the largest coalfired power station in the country. Erm of which there, of course is erm impeccable logic er you might think well there aren't any coal mines in Didcot, which of course there aren't, but Didcot is actually a railway junction as I mentioned and in fact it's on the main line from the midlands erm and they can get coal in from the Midlands very easily er it's on the main line er also from South Wales and they're getting co getting coal from, from er South Wales in the days when they built Didcot power station they still had coal m m mines in South Wales, so this was an obvious place to locate a large coalfired power station. Erm the fact it's now burning Australian coal does tend to undermine the arguments er but nevertheless it does have a good rail connection down to the coast, the p ports on the south coast where it can, can er take the stuff in from the er from the ports. Erm well coal er is quite a dirty fuel when it's burnt erm D Didcot power station er this is the sort of pollution you get from Didcot power station, it doesn't give the time on there er you might be surprised to, to realize that's actually er per day erm that's the amount of pollution you get per day from a large coalfired power station. The C O two comb erm erm contributes to er the greenhouse effect er the S O two, sulphur dioxide, contributes to acid rain er the dust and the ash are basically just er an inconvenience. Erm another s source of energy we've been considering is th is, is a tidal barrage across the Severn and erm you probably recognize this as a, as a map of the Severn Estuary er er and if you didn't it says the Severn Estuary in big letters er across the er the bottom er the proposal is to put er a barrage roughly across there erm I've shown er linking those two erm islands in the middle, Flat Holm and Steep Holm. That er, if built, would provide us with about ten percent of our electricity at current rates of use. Erm it's er would take about er twenty years to build, would cost about ten billion pounds, but of course once you've built it, er the running costs are very er small. We ha we have to look at the environmental consequences, you stick a barrage that size across erm a large er river system you've got to ask what happens upstream erm and of course Bristol for example is a port, how to get the ships in and out is another problem but er these are being considered at the moment and there's quite a lot of mo money going into, into studies but no commitment yet as to actually, to actually build it. Of course that's the only big site that we've got, so once you've built that one well that's more or less er it. The other source of energy we've been considering is wind power. Erm er there's various parts of the country where this is er suitable, this is a windmill in er Orkney a place called Bungay Hill er that provides electricity for most of the, the main island. Erm but of course to provide erm electricity on a larger scale, you can't put these things too close together, you need about er a thousand of those to, for example, to replace say a power station like Didcot and er and a thousand of these windmills would o occupy about three hundred square miles, and this is what three hundred square miles looks like er it's, it's the major part of, of central L you wouldn't put them in central London of course but erm gives you some idea of the sort of area you'd have to devote to wind farms if you were to use this particular type of er of energy. Erm so there are these other forms of energy as well, erm nuclear power er will take its place along those, alongside those I'm sure in the future er it does have its problems, the main problem is the possibility of er major accidents and many of you will remember the accident at Chernobyl in the, what was then the Soviet Union, it's now the, now the er Ukraine erm when in nineteen eighty six the, there was a very serious accident and the er roof er blew off and er radioactivity was pumped into the er atmosphere. Very serious accident indeed er two people died from falling masonry er in fact one of the bodies is still in there somewhere, they haven't found him yet and twenty nine people died from large doses of radiation erm erm and others will die prematurely because of the large radiation dose that they got, mainly the emergency workers who went in to erm sort out the er er the problem. Erm what's happened to that? There we go. Ra radiation is potentially harmful, er particularly in large doses. Erm this shows the er affect of radiation against er dose er ten thousand units is, is er fairly le is, is lethal you'd die within minutes if you got that sort of dose of radiation. Down at about a thousand units erm you er b between ten thousand and a thousand units er you'd suffer the symptoms of radiation sickness erm your hair would drop out and your teeth would drop out and you'd vomit and your skin would turn a funny shade of green and and you'd be very ill erm but you, you'd probably recover er you might not but you, you, I mean people have actually had those sort of doses of radiation and have actually recovered er from it. So there's, there's a chance you'd recover in that, in that range, though you will be ill for a while. Lower than a thousand units er there's no immediate affect and one's tempted to think that erm the er er it's, that radiation's therefore safe below that level and that's not strictly true because there is the possibility of a long term affect it can actually cause cancer in the long term but with very low er ra- er levels of risk cos you can see down at the levels where people actually get radiation doses er like erm members of the public or erm from the actual background of people who work in nuclear power stations, you're talking about very low levels but the levels, those sort of levels I mean one in three hundred thousand, one in three million, that sort of thing you can't actually measure in real er populations because there er any effects that there are can be swamped by other ways of getting er of getting cancer. Er in fact most of the radiation we get in fact is not from nuclear power, it's from erm man made sourc it's from, from natural sources eighty seven percent of the population as an average comes from our natural environment a lot comes from radon gas erm a small amount of radioactivity in our food erm we were discussing at er er lunch in, in fact the benefits of, of eating er low sodium salt salt is meant to be bad for you so the health er er er freaks say and it's the sodium, therefore you should buy low sodium salt which is calcium chloride rather than sodium chloride what they forget to tell you of course is that potassium er sorry it's, it's potassium chloride rather than er than s than sodium chloride, what they forget, forget to tell you of course is that potassium is slightly radioactive it contains erm a small amount of, of a naturally occurring radioactive potassium so you get a small dose of radiation er to compensate for the fact you aren't eating any sodium. Erm a small amount of, of erm radiation from cosmic rays from outer space and from building materials and so on er eighty seven percent in total of average. Of the man made er sources of radiation, twelve of the thirteen percent you see are from medical uses from X-rays, that kind of thing, and only one percent comes from all the others, of which point one percent comes from nuclear er installations. So erm er erm by n by no means er could you call one point one percent of something that can vary by factors of three in, in, in, in Cornwall the natural radiation is three times what it is in, in Essex erm er but they seem to be quite er healthy nevertheless in Cornwall erm so point one percent is er varies by factors of three, obviously can't be considered to be erm er a major political er a major erm er environmental hazard. The problem of course arises, as I've said earlier, when things go wrong, things like Chernobyl accidents and so on so we've gotta use nuclear power obviously we have to erm er make sure that we don't have accidents like that. I'll just finish with, with a er er er a small anecdote to show erm the relative affects of radiation compared to other things. You, you, you've all hea heard of Marie Curie, famous erm scientist who pioneered a lot of the work on radioactivity in the early part of this century and the last part of the last century she in fact was Polish, lived in, in, in Paris, married a French man called Pierre er hence she's known as Marie Curie well Pierre Curie was also a scientist and he was er baffled by the affect that,th the fact that there didn't seem to be any biological affects er certainly the doses of radiation that, that they were, they were getting they'd handled tons and tons of pitchblende, that's radioactive ore they extracted several grammes of radium from it, they'd been handling stuff for years they weren't ill, they obviously hadn't died and so on. So he, he thought he'd do an experiment, er he took a small piece of radium which he'd extracted from several tons of pitchblende and he put this bit of radium on his forearm and, and put a bandage round to hold it in place and left it there for a week and said right I'll see what happens. So after a week he takes away the bandage, removes the bit of radium, sure enough there's a bright red radiation burn on his forearm but apart from that he feels fine, he doesn't feel ill, he obviously hasn't died, er so he said well I'll leave that for a few weeks and monitor my, my health and see if there's any long term affects from this exposure to, to radiation. But we shall never know the results of that experiment because the very next week he was run over and killed by a bus erm which all goes to show that yes, you know in large doses radiation can be harmful to you, er but in the sort, the sort of levels that you and I are likely to come across er almost certainly something else will get you first. Thank you gentlemen. Gentlemen I'm sure there must be questions. Would anybody like to start the ball? Don Yes a after Chernobyl there was a certain amount of alarm about erm about hill farms, Cumberland and so forth and it's all gone quiet now, can you update us on what exactly Yeah. Yes what er happened,th there was erm erm er the radioactive cloud that came up was swept by the winds around the world and in fact as it went over the United Kingdom er it happened to rain on er Cumbria and North Wales so some of this radioactivity was brought down, it settled on the grass and got into the soil. Erm and the hill er farmers who graze their sheep up there there are very strict regulations about the amount of radioactivity that you're allowed to have in any meat and in, in, in sheep it's erm er er about ten thousand units er per kilogramme. That's the, the, the internationally approved level. Well in Britain we decided we'd be on the safe side, we'll reduce that to a thousand we put another factor of ten in and what's more i if one sheep in, in a whole flock is more than a thousand units, er then we will condemn the whole flock. So it's pretty, it's pretty er er and in fact some of these, these flocks who were grazing at the er w where just above that er that limit only just but just slightly above it so, so but in fact i if the farmers er grazed their sheep er further down the hillside er then in fact the, the er er the level dropped very rapidly and the sheep were then erm so it was a, a commercial decision as to whether to keep your sheep up on the hills to, to eat radioactive grass and get the compensation or to graze your sheep further down and actually the, the lamb the, the, the lambs for, for, for for the market. Erm s so er because obviously these hill farmers were compensated for, for the loss of, of sales. As far as I know, er the levels have now dropped and I don't think there are any further restrictions, as far as I know. But it was just on the, on the margin er er o o of something that was already a large factor below the international limit, so it was er there were very large safety factors involved in that in fact. Er Frank Yes thank you Mr President erm we worry about our, our stations though I don't think we've got very many in fact but within reach, within twenty five miles across the Channel there are probably ten or twenty French power stations that could cause just as much trouble as any of ours surely? And any fallout from them would affect most of the southern half of England I think, is this true? Yeah er the, the French erm have a very large nuclear programme er for, for a good erm logical gallic reasons, I mean they've got no oil, they've got no gas, they've got no coal, so they decided, oh years and years ago in the nineteen fifties, to have a very large nuclear programme. Seventy five percent of their electricity comes from nuclear power in France. And that will rise to ninety percent early in the next century. Er so they actually got themselves organized and they erm have factories that, that er mass produce the components and they're producing nuclear power stations at the rate of about one every six months. And, and erm because it's all mass produced er they can actually build a nuclear power station for half the price that we can that obviously has an effect on the economics. And when they sited their power stations, they decided erm, again for good economic reasons, to site them er along the channel coast and actually down the, down the Rhine most of the power stations are, are er th they have power stations elsewhere but a lot of the power stations are in these areas here and the reason for that was, by putting it near to their borders, they were able to export electricity to their neighbours. Er they were banking on the fact that there'd be problems for other countries because of, you know, public perception etcetera, you know the French had decided almost all of them decided they'd have a nuclear programme anyway so, so, so they were er o okay. Er so a lot of their power stations are actually built near borders for that reason, they're, they, they, they, they make a lot of money by exporting nuclear electricity across the border to Germany, into Switzerland, to Belgium, to Holland and of course, through this,the these couple of cables under the channel, to Britain. So in fact five percent of our electricity comes from French nuclear power stations, in fact at the present time. Er but yes wh what happens if there's er er an accident? Erm the French erm safety record is extremely good. Erm we've had a, a major accident in nineteen fifty er ninety fifty seven, one of the Winscale small reactors at Winscale caught fire er the Americans had an accident at Three Mile Island which erm w was catastrophic as far as the reactor was concerned, but the safety devices prevented any radioactivity escaping the Russians have had their Three Mile I er their erm Chernobyl accident which was catastrophic. Er the French, despite the size of their programme, erm haven't had any serious incidents at all, in fact they they're very well run er stations. So erm yes there is the risk that the French, one of the French power stations could go wrong and it would affect southern England. Erm but er certainly the record to date has been that these power stations are erm extremely erm well run and that they ha they've had no major incidents at all. Yes there's always the possibility that it might. But then of course France is a, is a, is a separate country and we can't actually tell the French what to do. Er we could refuse to buy their electricity off them I suppose but it wouldn't be have much affect. But if you can actually influence the French let us know because, or let the government know, because they, they've been trying for years ever since Napoleon's day, to try and do something. I mean we Mitterand and take him down to the I suppose, see if that'll do any good but erm erm you know the each, I mean, basically we are, we are a world of a hundred or so independent sovereign states and each sovereign state can do what it wishes within its territory with the exception of Iraq of course er for, for other reasons. But I mean erm er which means basically that er if, if a country wants to build a nuclear power programme er they ha they, they can do so. And most countries with nuclear power programmes are, are pa er er are, subscribe to the International Atomic Energy Agency which sets international standards er and they have inspectors who, who er check these standards are being observed. Er and of course France is a member, we're a member, in fact all the nuclear c countries with nuclear power st er programmes are members. Which er gives some sort of erm er comfort that in fact the international standards are being maintained. The French are a fairly responsible people after all er er with, with reason a reasonable standard of technology. And certainly they're record to date has been better than ours so erm maybe we should Gentlemen I'll just take one last question, Gordon Yeah in today's press it says that er the government are going to subsidize now the coal industry something like seven hundred millions due to the miners' kerfuffle, which is going to mean between five and ten pounds subsidy per ton. Now it also goes on to say that's going to affect electricity prices which will rise, now how will that compensate with, with nuclear electricity? Erm well it depends erm the, the economics of power production are extremely erm er complex and, and t to a certain extent arbitrary erm and erm I mean there, there are various ways that the government can actually get out of this fix because obviously it's caused a lot of concern to close the, the mines, and one is actually to, to subsidize the mines and put the price on to electricity bills er the other is to subsidize the mines er but pay for it out of the, out of, er out of taxes so it's a basic, instead of paying for it on your electricity bill, you pay for it on your tax bill, yeah. A and the, the justification for doing this would be that in the long term we will need the coal therefore it's ne it's necessary to keep er a viable coal industry going. Er er er th that's a fairly logical argument in fact. Erm it's one that is er different from the normal philosophy of this government which tends to er work on er relatively short term economic forces, let the market sort things out is, is, is generally their philosophy. So it would mean actually going against their, their philosophy. Erm the nuclear industry also has erm er a subsidy, it's known as the nuclear levy erm and there is reasons for that erm one is that erm some money has to be put aside to decommission nuclear power stations in the future erm now the s C G B, before it was broken up, had been actually putting some money aside year by year yeah ou ou out of the money that was generated fr er er from selling electricity nuclear power stations, some was put to one side, notionally,o on the accounts f f for a future decommissioning. Now when the C G B was broken up, that money just disappeared. I mean nobody pinched it, it er actually just went into the general melting pot. So that national er budget that had been accumulating over, over twenty thirty years just basically vanished. Er so that had to be, that had to be re replenished essentially with, with, with other money. Erm so erm th the cheapest er fuel at the moment is gas, you know, that's, that's why er a lot of the erm er er generators are now moving to towards gas er erm er generation er wh which is fine for as long as the gas exists but, you know, another, give it another ten fifteen years, and our North Sea gas will have gone you see so, so erm you have to ask well how much do you, weight do you put on market forces and how much in say, in the energy business, ought you to be thinking longer term? And that's really a political question. Thank you Ian. Could I ask Rotarian Jeff please to propose a vote of thanks. Right erm regarding being a Lancastrian I think the er the main for coming down to the south is probably where you are today, I mean, cricket is the great game that we all follow here no doubt you've come down to watch some decent cricket. I won't say too much about the football cos Manchester United are on top. Erm ironically I was one of those that went from Essex to Manchester and I did live up there for a couple of years but er decided to come back. Erm personally, er on the nuclear er atomic side, we we're very involved with our own company, with B N F L at Sellafield, with the er manufacture of the precast concrete and, and I know what it means in terms of the, the safety incurred in in, in the design because it is quite erm er strenuous the things we have to go through. I'm going back to the erm controversial emotive subject of atomic power I suppose, as you said earlier,the the atomic bomb and erm I suppose the most worrying thing for er for everybody was when erm the Cuba crisis was on and everybody was just waiting for these mushrooms to appear over London because we all thought we were gonna be bombed at any time but er obviously the other thing that sort of worries people is other things that you said about Chernobyl and Three Mile Island but on the other side, obviously the erm the low cost of atomic power must be the advantage for the future. Obviously not being aware that there's er a population of eight billion forecast for the year two thousand and erm obviously with the natural resources of erm gas and coal running out and the, the pollution problems you've got with coal and obviously the great efficiency of sixty times more efficient than other forms of power. Er other areas that probably worried people er i is this storage and distribution and how it's gonna affect us and goodness knows what but I think that's been gone into in, in great depth and I'm sure it moves around with great safety. Erm obviously other forms of power er the, the, the water barrage in the Severn erm Estuary and the wind power is, is something but obviously er the thing with this atomic power situation, it's got to be something for the future. Erm I think that's about all I've got to say and I, I'd just like the club to er thank Ian in erm the usual way please Thank you Mr President. Next week we have Rodney , the District Foundation Chairman, and the hosts are Alan and Mike . Thank you gentlemen, I will now close the m meeting by asking you to join me in the the erm Final the final toast. The toast is to Rotary the world over. To rotary the world over. I thank you. Thank you Ian, that was You're welcome obviously very well received and it's very nice to have met Mr President Ladies and Gentlemen as the Chairman of South Cambridgeshire District Council it does give me great pleasure to welcome the Institute of Environmental Health Officers to Girton College here in South Cambridgeshire this morning. I understand that your institution covers not only Cambridgeshire but also Norfolk and Suffolk, so my welcome is a particular one to those delegates who have travelled here from neighbouring counties today, and I trust that your journey on such a pleasant morning was a really good one and that you'll find that this symposium is going to be very worthwhile. I understand that this is the third Cambridge symposium, and this is the third time also that you have come to Girton College. Previous topics have been presenting the legal case, environmental health in Europe 1992. It seems that with such a background the theme of your thoughts during the course of these symposiums has been getting the message across, and certainly when you turn to the one that you have this time, of the media, you are really getting involved in getting the message across. As I said earlier, I'm pleased that you've come to Girton for this symposium, come away from your normal surroundings in the perhaps stuffy office in some district council to the beauty of the wide open spaces here out in the countryside. I hope too that this beautiful countryside and this beautiful college will be conducive to good thoughts, reflections and reappraisals, and if I might say to the men I hope there are not too many of the female students floating up and down the corridors to further divert your attention. Of course at the moment environmental health is very much an in subject, especially with the Environmental Protection Act of 1990, and your profession has the marvellous opportunity of seeking to safeguard the environment and also the threats that we have at the present time which are upon the environment,from so many sources but, most of all particularly in the eastern counties, from the population explosion, which we here in South Cambridgeshire know quite a bit about. South Cambridgeshire District Council has recognized the important part that environmental health officers have to play within the work of the District Council, and for some time now the work of the Department has been carried on under the hat of the Legal, Housing and Health Director. Quite recently the Environmental Department has become semi-autonomous with Russell Jones as its Chief Environmental Health Officer and we know the good work which Russell has done over the years. We're particularly proud of him in South Cambridgeshire, as we're also proud that so many of our environmental health officers like Alan Hobson do sterling work for us, and we are looking to them in the in the future with this semi-autonomy that they've been given to really take on board the opportunities which have been given to them under the 1990 Act to really go to town on environmental health. As we look around us, we see particularly in the field of litter that there is so much to do, and I'm sure that this is one area where we shall be looking to improve our country and improve our countryside. I'm very sorry that as soon as I have finished this welcome this morning that I have got to leave you, and I am very sorry that I shall not be able to return this evening for your dinner which I would originally look forward very much to but I trust that you will enjoy the company of the Chairman of our Environmental Services Committee, Councillor Robin Draga , who is attending on my behalf. We find today that using the media is something which we all want to do, we all want to get our message across, we all want to get over our aims and our objectives. Sometimes we find that getting across the message and the work which the Council is doing is not always an easy one. Of course in the past this has often been the lack of interest which has been shown by district councils, who have tried to ignore the existence of the press. However the press does exist, the media exists, and with it we have got local television and local radio. The media has got some message to give, and we want to be part of that message. It's not always easy. We in South Cambridgeshire feel from time to time sitting on the doorstep of a university city that we are often ignored and I'm sure that that is a very fair criticism as far as our District Council is concerned. And so you through this symposium today, particularly those of you who come from South Cambridgeshire, have an opportunity to learn, and we trust that through your learning you'll be able to educate the media that we really do exist in South Cambridgeshire. And so I hope that, as you go away from this place, that you will really go away with the knowledge, and with the technical know-how, to put across the work which, as I said earlier, we all recognize is a very important part in these coming months and years. And so finally I must say to you once again, welcome to South Cambridgeshire, and I hope that this will be a very pleasant and a very informative symposium. Thank you very much for allowing me to come. Right. It's my pleasure and honour on behalf of the Eastern Centre to welcome you to this third Cambridge symposium. This is carrying on a long tradition of Eastern Centre get-togethers for E H Os,we've done residential courses every two years for I don't know how many years. This is the seventh one that I've attended, but no doubt there are people present who've attended even more. I'd like to extend a particular welcome to those people not from the Eastern Centre, we 'd like to meet new faces, new people all the time, we certainly extend a good welcome to them. The subject of this year's symposium, as the Councillor has just said, is using the media — we'll hear more about that later. It's my duty to cover certain pastoral matters before we actually get on to the business of the seminar. Firstly the rooms that we'll be using. Obviously this room. This is Old Hall. This'll be used for all sessions except for group work. The exception to that is that Group Group B — you'll see in your folders you've all been allocated to a group — Group B's session work will be in this work. Group A will be using the Stanley Library which is directly opposite where you've just had coffee, and Group C will be using the Reception Room which is back towards the Porter's Lodge on the right hand side. Tea and coffee during the seminar will be served in the Stanley Library. The good news is that the bar will be open today from twelve forty-five at lunchtime, and from six forty-five this evening. The bar steward has asked if he can close the bar at eleven thirty tonight. I'm sure he'll be more accommodating if we See what we can do. You're certainly welcome to take any drinks through to lunch with you, whatever you want, but tonight for the dinner we've there is wine provided so there's no need to take drink through. Meals will be served in Hall which is sort of round the back here. Anybody who doesn't know where Hall is I would suggest they tag themselves on to an old lag. Several people here know exactly where they where they're going. Breakfast is served from eight fifteen in the morning, but before that the Eastern Centre Swimming Gala will be held in the pool at seven o'clock. okay? I know seven o'clock's a bit late for several people here for getting up, so anybody's who particularly keen on fitness can join Norman Foster who sits over there, for his early morning run. That's all right is it Norman? Can we please be prompt at nine o'clock tomorrow morning for the start of the sessions tomorrow. I've already mentioned the groups that you've been allocated to. You'll see from your programmes that there is a little bit of group work involved. Each group has got a seminar organizer in that group,so anybody with any particular problems, if they go to the seminar organizer, he or she will try their best to sort it out. The seminar organizers are Robert Osborne, who's just crept in,Judy Rainer — I wonder where Judy's sitting —with the hand Ivor Bertram who hasn't arrived yet, he'll be arriving at lunchtime,and myself. So any problems at all that you think we might be able to help with, just let us know, we'll see what we can sort out. I hope you all enjoy yourselves and I look forward to having a good and informative seminar with you. okay Now come to our first session. Again referring to your programme you'll see that most of the seminar will be taken by Face the Media. Face the Media are present here, the two people sat at the front. I'd like to introduce you to Dr Brian Smith, from the University of Sussex; he's a free-lance broadcaster and a partner with Liz Felcombe in Face the Media. Liz Felcombe is a District Councillor with Brighton and a member of both the Institute of Journalists and the Institute of Public Relations. She's a council member of the National Society for Clean Air. She's also a past chairman of an environmental of the Environmental Health Committee at Brighton so be careful what you say. Without further ado I think this over to Face the Media. Thank you very much. It's always slightly daunting at this particular time because you're introduced as some sort of guru and people expect great things. Now I'm going to come clean right at the beginning. We're going to dangle all sorts of ideas in front of you, challenge you in all sorts of ways, but we want you very much to feel free to share your experiences and to say ‘Hey! It wasn't like that for us,’ or ‘I don't think this'll work,’or ‘I tried this last Tuesday week,’or something like that. So what we're going to do is to trail our coats in a variety of sessions, to suggest a variety of things to you, and see whether you agree with them or not so please feel free to come in as and when appropriate and see what you think. This session's about being pro-active rather than reactive. And really I'm going to start off and then Liz is going to come in on a particular aspect of this. I'm going to start off by suggesting why people like yourselves ought to be much more pro-active, take a much more lead in terms of doing things with the media. And I'm going to suggest it's in your interest to learn how the media operate, and it's in your interest to cultivate the media, and it's in your interest to actually persuade the media to do a lot of the work which you would normally do for yourselves if I could put it that way. So the theme of this morning is ‘Be pro-active and not reactive’, and I shall come back to that again in a few minutes. The sort of things that we're going to cover during the two days are these areas. What we call the public relations interview, which is often a radio interview but can take different forms, is a situation in which you have an opportunity, in a fairly low-key way, to sell something, to promote something, to get a message across, and if you are successful, you can find that the media will do a lot of your hard work for you in this area. There's another situation, the hard news interview, which again is often on radio though it can take other forms and using other forms of the media, which Liz'll talk about in a moment and I won't say more at this stage. We're going to cover press releases, a very important way of feeding information into the media generally, and there I'm glad to say you're going to do a lot of the work — you've already been primed to do your homework, I hope you have — and you're going to do work from group and we're going to work with you to see whether we can sharpen up some of these press releases. Writing for radio is an aspect which we will touch on tomorrow, and television again we're going to talk about tomorrow, there's less opportunity being realistic to be on television but the impact is probably greater because many of us watch the box and so forth. In all these matters the more you know about the media and the more you know about what they're looking for and the more you know about techniques and the more you can develop things, the greater the possibilities are and the greater the opportunities. So again we're going to come back to several themes in a fairly repetitive way, and we — don't forgive us for this if you don't like it, but we're certainly going to talk about certain things again and again and again, but what it really comes down to, is ‘Learn what the media's all about, learn what they want, learn what you can provide, see whether you can match this, in a sense, and see whether you can make it work to your advantage’. This is really what it comes down to in a variety of ways. You'll notice a distinct omission there. We've said we haven't listed anything and there's no formal slot on the programme for the press in general, talking to journalists and so forth . That's deliberately because the programme is a tight one and you can't fit everything in all the time, but we'll refer to this at several different points particularly talking about press releases a little bit later this morning, and also you we will find that a lot of the general comments we're made making apply to press situations, talking to journalists in general, and writing articles for from that point of view also. So. The question is, first of all, and the question you must be asking yourselves right at the beginning is, ‘Why face the media, why have anything to do with them, at all?’ I mean they're miserable people who come in and make your life awkward on occasions by asking awkward questions, you know ‘Why have you got rats in the basement?’ ‘Why aren't you doing anything about the litter?’ etcetera etcetera etcetera ‘What are you going to do about this new Act which is coming in and have you got it all under control?’ So a lot of people quite understandably say, ‘The media is something which is best kept out of here and if they're coming I shall hide under the table’ and so on. Our message is that have a think about an alternative possibility, about being much more high-key, much more pro-active rather than reactive. So I'm going to attempt in very quick terms a a rationalization for why it might be in your interest to do so. And I'm going to suggest, without going into great detail, that the media will actually help you promote your products, your organization, your services, your views, the information you need to share with the public, if in fact you can actually present it to them in such a way that they can use it. That's what it comes down to. And the problem is that most of the time you know what you want to say, but does it correspond to what people want to hear, or read, or listen to? You've got your job to do, your job is — you can define in several different ways, and no doubt you will do during the course of the morning, tomorrow, in the afternoon and tomorrow, but you need to understand what the media is all about. What do they want? What is their task? What are What are their What are they seeking? If you can understand what they're seeking, what their job's all about, then perhaps you can actually put the two things together. So we're going to talk about things like repackaging, restating in forms which are useful to the media, so that they can actually do some of your work for you. So our suggestion is that the media, if you get it right, effectively, efficiently, economically, can do a lot of work in terms of promotional, information sharing and so on, as education, other things, and you name it in the context of your particular interest and organization. Let me let me cite a commercial organization which, to give you an idea, I know you're not commercial in that particular sense, of what we're talking about. You all know, have you all come across The Body Shop? You know the, the sells these oils and what-nots in bottles and so forth. Anita Ruddick started that in the mid-nineteen-seventies. We know about this because she's a local lady, down in Sussex. She started with a few pounds, about four thousand pounds which she managed to wangle from the local bank manager, a great vision, an enthusiasm but very little experience. But what she did have was an eye and an ear and a view about promotion right from the beginning. It so happened her first shop, called The Body Shop, opened next door to an undertaker's in Brighton. Now. You see? You see? Click click click. She telephoned the local press and said, ‘Do you realize there's a shop called The Body Shop opening next door to the undertaker's? Wouldn't that make a nice little story?’ Silly story, but a beautiful one. All the photographers came down there. Click click photographs too, you know, undertaker's next to Body Shop, Anita standing on the on the doorstep and so forth. A lovely little fun piece. Overnight everyone in Brighton and Hove and the area knew that the Body Shop had opened. Now she had done what putting thousands of leaflets through letterboxes, what advertising by advertising space in newspapers and so forth couldn't possibly have done, and she'd done it free. And she got it. She claims she's never spent a penny on advertising ever since. And yet she has one of the highest profiles imaginable, because she recognizes what she is doing, in a variety of ways, and the media-worthy nature of this, and she feeds the media with all sorts of stories, all sorts of angles, all sorts of aspects, which actually help her cause. And they lap it up. And so she can cross that bit off her budget. There's a second situation which again Liz'll be dealing with. What to do How to deal with situations where there that have gone wrong with minimum damage, and I won't comment further on that at this moment. So I want to suggest that success, if I have perhaps have slightly persuaded you that the media are worth taking seriously, that success comes through a variety of things. First of all understanding, studying the format of various things. It's no good sending a press release which is couched in the language of The Times, to your local newspaper, or The Sun, or something like that. They wouldn't recognize it if it hit them between the eyes, of its use. What you've got to do is actually have some understanding of the needs of a of particular newspapers, radio programmes, television programmes, by studying, look at it, see what it who's it for, what language do they use, how do they phrase things, what's their format, and then you can get yourself in the position where you can say, ‘I can do something like that, I can produce something like that.’ Now there's a little piece, can I mention a little piece in the local thing, there's a little press release here which Robert produced and sent off to the local newspaper. What newspaper is it, Robert? Cambridge News. Cambridge Evening News, and it talks about environmental health officers meeting at Girton College to train in the media, and it actually mentions some of the locals, people like Robert Satchwell, who's going to join us later, Julian Dunne, John Venables and so forth. The point is here that he has mentioned in his press release a number of okay local people, and by doing this in this particular way he has greatly increased the possibility and probability of ending up with a piece in the local newspaper. Now, if he'd written in a more highfalutin way, or he'd talked about Liz and myself, or a variety of other things, in a very pontificating way, it may never have got in the newspaper because they would have said, ‘What is the relevance? Would our readers have been interested? What is the local contact?’ and so on and so forth. So that's a very nice example of putting something in context. There's also a bad example there but we'll come back to that later, Robert. So — you can't going to get all the credit for this I'll give you some lessons okay, okay Yes, so, the point is actually studying formats of newspapers and listening, viewing, reading, thinking ‘What's that all about? Could I do something of that kind?’ It's understanding what the need is and understanding what need you can actually supply. You know, have you got a bit which could be put in such a form that it would actually make sense and appeal to this particular viewership, audienceship and so on and so forth. And that means targeting the stuff you send out, and I'm amazed at what terrible bad targeting a lot of people do. They produce press releases and they send it off and they feel terribly bitter and twisted and unhappy because nobody takes any notice of it, but they don't realize that what they've actually produced makes no sense at all to the person receiving it on the other end. Ninety per cent plus of all press releases go into waste paper baskets. Firstly because editors and journalists and so forth get an awful lot of them, and don't have time to pore over them, and secondly because they pick them up,they sort of come in, they look at it and say, ‘I can't see how I can use this.’ Now why can't they use it? Because they can't see the angle. And all journalists, all broadcasters, all people in the media, are looking for an angle. Now sometimes it's a subtle, intellectual, sophisticated angle, and sometimes it's a silly, sexy, low-key angle. But they're all looking for an angle. They've all got a vision about their listeners, their viewers, their readers and so forth, and when they pick something, a press release, or when they hear a story or something like that, their mind's going click click click ‘How can I use this in a way that I can turn it into a form which is usable for my people?’ in a sense. Now if you understand that, if you're actually targeting, you want to get something into a national paper or local paper or something, you need to think at about your particular item you want to get across and think ‘What sort of angle could actually be useful for that particular outlet?’ And if you can think of that, you can repackage your particular thing not in terms of your own interests and ideas and so forth, but you can package it in such a way that it's intriguing, or at the very least, the people who are going you hope will use it can actually see how they could use it. You see the point I'm making? So you're in a marvellous position. They might or might not ask spot the point, they may or may not answer the right questions, but you're in a marvellous point of view, position, to actually be able to spot angles. So we're going to talk a lot about repackaging. And then we're also going to talk about practising, because it's not a one-shot thing. If you produce a lovely little item which fits perfectly on a particular radio programme, or newspaper, and that happens to be the week that it's the county show, or an earthquake, or something like that, there's no way you're going to get it in, because there's too much competition, and the next week it's dead. So you mustn't be bruised and disappointed because your impeccable piece is turned down. You got to practise and you got to persevere. So there's a lot to do with that particular thing we're going to talk about. Now lastly I just want to mention the what we call the P R interview, and two or three aspects of this. First of all, the great mistake most people when they're talking to press people is to assume that they know what they're talking about. ‘okay, what do you want to know? Welcome, you know, I'm happy to talk to you, what do you want to know?’ And then you they ask you a number of questions, often pretty stupid questions, they go away and write a bit which contains some errors, or they broadcast a bit which doesn't seem quite right, and then you feel cross and you say ‘I'm never going to speak to that lot again.’ Now I think half the problem is that most of the people working in the press are in fact amateurs in the sense they're not specialists in your particular subject except perhaps in the trade press. They're talking about your lot today, tomorrow it's going to be about cricket, the day after it's going to be about something else, it's and they have to pick up things very quickly. And it's understandable coming in, that they can very easily get the wrong end of the stick. Now how can you avoid that? How can you help them? Well one of way doing it is actually to expand, be very up front in terms of the information you're supplying and the way you actually supply it. And let me illustrate that in a context let's say a local radio station. A lot of people are invited in to local radio and it's a very good outlet, it's a very good way of learning the game. They're invited in to talk about a particular thing that's coming in, about noise or about rats in the basement or about how to , and the interviewer has a very vague idea it's a topic he's heard it, he's thought about it, he thinks it's a local thing, and he's actually trying to get something out of it in a sense. Now you can go in and say, ‘okay I'm your local E H O expert, what do you want to know?’ Or you could go in and say, ‘Listen,, can I suggest two or three aspects of this that it's worth covering? First of all you need to know that the legislation says that, you need to know the current practice is that, and I can tell you a couple of funny stories about what happened to Mrs Ingalls down the street.’ Now in that sense, you're not telling him how to do his job, or her how to do her job, you're actually offering some material. And nine times out of ten people in that situation, when they're actually creating their article or their programme or anything else, will take that material, use their own style, wrap it up, and as it were throw it out, and if you're pro-active in that sense, you stand a very very much better chance of them getting it right. So if somebody telephones you and says, ‘Can I ask you some questions? Can I help you can will you come into the studio? Will you do these things?’ The answer is ‘Yes, certainly, I'll talk to you, I'll come in. What sort of things do you want to explore?’ And if they say something very specific and knowledgeable you know that this chap knows what he's talking about, and therefore you can prepare your answer and Sorry? Pass it on to somebody else. Pass it on to somebody else. Run like hell and pray for rain, as they say. That's the expression. Alternatively, if you, if he says, ‘Well I want to have a, I read something and I want to have a discussion,’ you think this chap doesn't know anything about it, and you actually do a lot of the work for him or her in the circumstances. So that's the do da . Two things on the P R interview, and I'll bring my section to a close. The hook. Again and again and again, one comes to a thing which is called ‘the hook’ in the trade. That's the start of anything. The most important start to a radio programme, of a newspaper article, of a television programme, is the start. Somehow people producing this, preparing this have to think of a way in which they can trap the listener, the viewer, the reader and get their interest. It depends on the nature of the programme, it depends on the nature of the journal and so forth, sometimes it's a photograph, sometimes it's a headline, sometimes it's a thumping first paragraph. But you just think how you read newspapers. You pick up your the newspaper you normally read, and you say, ‘Ha! Right. Forty-thousand pounds something up.’ Do you think, ‘Wonder what that is. I'm intrigued by that,’ and so you move into the article. And the people that write for the Sun know that the readers of the Sun will read that if they have a headline like that. And the same is true for the Guardian, for the Times, the Independent, anything else. They all have their styles, they all have their formats, and they're all written in such a way that they draw you in. That's called ‘the hook’. And in a radio programme, you have exactly the same thing, it's the first fifteen or twenty seconds which makes you decide ‘Am I going to listen to this, or am I going to switch this off, and go out and make a cup of tea or take the dog for a walk?’ So they're always looking for some intriguing way of saying metaphorically, ‘Hey! This is for you.’ So we're going to come back to that at several different points during the day or two, and lastly, bat and ball. There's a sense in which the very best type of interview, the very best sort of particularly on something like radio or television, is one in which somebody is not being manipulated by somebody else, but is genuinely a sort of backwards and forwards situation. And there are a number of fallacies about the media, radio and television in particular, you will be going into this at various points during the couple of days, and one fallacy is that radio and television are meant for mass audiences. Well if you think that then you're not going to be a good performer, because they are our chief intimate media. They are actually being watched or listened to by small groups of people. And the person that goes into the radio studio and thinks, ‘I'm talking to a hundred thousand people’ or something like that, is doomed, because the voice and approach you use is a bit like the voice and approach I have now, I'm sort of talking to a largish group of people. Now I wouldn't talk to you individually, I'd overwhelm you if I was like this. So the people who start talking to the Nüremburg rally sound terrible. What you got to do in that context is forget all the equipment, all the rest of it, try and focus on the chap you're talking to in the studio, and just have a conversation with him. And if there happen to be other people listening, all well and good. And that is successful radio. And the same is true for television. Well, I've trailed my coat, I've said a whole lot of things in hopefully to intrigue you, to start you off, merely in terms of rather positive public relations, the media are good and they're lovely and you ought to encourage them, and really, my message in the very first part is what I started off with. Be pro-active, not reactive. Have I persuaded you? Have I convinced you? I don't know. This will come out in the discussion, informally and formally during the course of the day, but let me hand over to my colleague, who will talk about the other side of the coin. Yes. He's Mr Nice Guy, you see, he talks about going in when you have something nice and positive to promote and you think he doesn't actually read The Sun. For a small fee I'll tell you different. The news interview, on the whole, is event-driven. It's when something has gone wrong,, somebody, your local radio producer picks it up, he says, ‘There's been an outbreak of Legionnaire's Disease in a Butlin's Holiday Camp. This is terrible, let's go and talk about it. The Chairman of the County Council has just got food poisoning Where did he pick it up? What restaurant was he in? Have you ever inspected the restaurant? Etcetera etcetera. And that is the time that you have learn to cover your backside in sheet steel. And it's not always that easy because on the whole, news interviewers are a much tougher breed than the nice gentle Brians of this world who are the disc jockey sitting in a studio with two hours to fill, pile of records, let's get A, B and C in and do a nice ten minute slot with them. Mostly news interviewers are a much tougher breed. They know what they want and they intend to get it. They know how to set traps, they know how to ask you questions which will lead you into using emotive words, they will have you on tape, they will also possibly be in a position to edit that tape, and at the end of the day you cannot say, ‘I didn't say that,’ because I have a piece of tape that says you actually did say it. And if I'm a wicked, evil news reporter, I'm going to leave out all the nice, positive things that you said, because you went on for so long I'm interviewing you at half past twelve for the one o'clock news. What I don't want is ten minutes of waffle and one and a half minutes of pure gold. It's going to take me far too long to prospect for the gold. And I will have a piece of tape which says, ‘Well yes of course you would expect the Chairman of the County Council to get food poisoning in this particular restaurant because we have prosecuted him three times. It's the Chairman's fault for actually eating there.’ You know, you understand what I'm saying. So the golden rule in a news interview is: listen to the question and only answer the question, and then stop talking. I've interviewed people sometimes on what I call fishing expeditions. I have a very vague idea of what this terrible crime is that I'm trying to get to the bottom of, that you have rats in the basement of your best hotel, or you know, there's a house falling down somewhere and you've done absolutely nothing about a closing order, any of these kind of things, but I don't know a lot about it. But I have just a feeling that there is something there. And what so often happens is I ask a fairly innocuous question. And you're so anxious to justify yourself, that you answer the question, and then you go on to tell me all the background behind it, and in so doing you give me a lovely piece of information which I didn't actually have when you walked into the room. Now if I am a good reporter, in a sense I'm going to let the original question flow past me as a starter, I may use it, I may not use it. What I am going to focus on is this terrible guilt feeling which is coming out while you're giving me all this information, and I can see one or two nodding heads, I guess, I guess some of you've been in that situation. So news interviews: listen to the question, answer the question, and stop talking. If I want more information, I'll ask a supplementary. If you say, ‘Well, we do lots of good things,’ and I say, ‘okay, for example, tell me one.’ And I can ask another supplementary. You haven't given anything away. I've had to actually drag it out of you. Try and be positive, even though you are perhaps really with your back against a wall,in a situation that you really know that the department has done something really pretty awful. okay, you can't actually deny that this or that has happened. But try and be positive about it, and say, ‘Yes, this, I have to say this is a bad situation,, it's not a situation which has occurred before, we are taking very positive steps to ensure that it doesn't happen again, we have prosecuted Mr X, we have done whatever is appropriate.’ Don't end up being apologetic. That's not what you're there for. You are there to do a damage limitation exercise, to do the best that you can in difficult circumstances. ‘No comment’ means ‘as guilty as hell’. Even the police have learned that now. The police, if they want to say ‘No comment’, they say, ‘I'm sure you'll understand that I can't comment on that particular aspect, the matter is sub judice, you wouldn't wish me to prejudice the . That is ‘No comment’, but it's ‘No comment’ done in such a way that it is implying intelligence on the part of the audience, saying, ‘Well, you realize, of course, that if I were to comment on this, you know, it would prejudice either the chances of the prisoner if we catch him or, you know, any possible clues and so on .’ So it is very unwise. If you have to say ‘No comment’ then do give a reason for it. One of the things you have to remember is that you do actually know quite a lot about how the media operate already. You presumably all listen to radio, watch television and so on. You know the nature of a news interview. You have what? A ten minute slot roughly. And in that ten minute slot there may be four or five stories. So what does that actually tell you about each story? It tells you that it is reported very crisply, very briefly. And that should inform your thinking when somebody rings you up and says, ‘My editor tells me that this happened. I want to come and talk to you.’ The first question you should ask is, ‘okay, what's this for?’ Is it for a nice, Brian-type P R interview, in which case you think, ‘Oh good, that probably means about ten minutes? Twelve minutes? Something very nice, laid back, I can afford to expand.’ ‘No, this is for a news interview.’ Immediately your brain says, ‘okay, that's got to be crisp.’ So you say, ‘What is it you want to talk to me about?’ ‘Well, we've seen this article in the paper. We want to come and talk to you about — whatever it might be. Salmonella, Legionnaire's — I mean, let's have some real crises while we're about it. And you then have to say to yourself, ‘okay, now what — what sort of information are they are going to want and how crisply and briefly can I give that information?’ If you need statistics, jot them on a little piece of paper. You have to accept that you are going into an alien environment. And I can promise you that under pressure you may very well forget the name of your mother, your favourite aunt,possibly even your wife's name. So give yourself what help you can. If you're going to need statistics, just a little crib card. ‘Well, we've only had twelve cases of salmonella in the last twenty-five years, and this is very unusual,’ and so on and so forth. Give yourself a little bit of help. It will also help to concentrate your mind so that you do actually keep the statements reasonably brief. If you don't ask those questions, you are going to find yourself very confused, because you will not know what mode you are expected to operate in. Now, just as you'll hear about the hook, the brief, the repackaging, you will hear quite a lot about modes over the next couple of days. Because really all we're saying to you is, ‘Switch into whatever is the appropriate mode for what is expected of you.’ The news mode? Quick, short, decisive answers. P R, Brian-type interview? Expansion, give him a little straw out of which he can make the bricks, have a couple of good stories and so on. Learn to operate in the right mode. The other thing is that if you do ask these questions when the guy gets on the telephone to you, he's going to say, ‘Here is somebody who knows something about the media, who knows how we operate.’ And you should not let the media be like a juggernaut and roll all over you. You should actually say, ‘They need me as much as I need them.’ Because without you and, and other people like you there wouldn't be any local radio. So don't be afraid to ask the questions: Is this live? Am I going into a studio? Am I going to sit down comfortably in a studio and be interviewed, or is this guy going to come to my office with a piece of equipment like that, which we will be using later, a ewer , or a Nigra whatever piece of portable equipment they have. In which case it can be edited. Editing is both a good and a bad thing in a sense. It means that I can edit out any really awful mistakes that you make, or indeed any mistakes that I as an interviewer make, but it also means I can edit out some of the things you wish you'd left in. If you're live, you've got to dig yourself out of it if you make a real mistake, but if it's — if it's on a portable machine, if it's editable, be sure that it probably will be edited. Don't be pressurized into giving an interview. The phone rings and a guy says, ‘I want to talk to you about this.’ ‘Yes, fine. When?’ ‘Well, like, ten minutes ago, because I need it for the next programme.’ Now, everybody's instinct is to think, ‘My goodness, I must give way, I, you know, they really need it, I must talk to him down the telephone.’ Don't be pressured. If it's something you can answer quite easily, okay, you may feel you want to make a comment there and then. If it isn't, say, ‘I would like a little time to think about this, I need to get some facts and figures, I'm sure you wouldn't wish me to give you incorrect information. I will phone you back in five minutes.’ That gives you time to get your head together, to pick up any appropriate notes that you may want, it may mean you want to actually consult somebody else. Don't be pressured. Try not to go on the defensive. I've said, Be positive. But there will be situations where you really feel you may be defending a lost cause, because after all things do go quite disastrously wrong. But again, take time to think about it. Take time to say, ‘How can I present my organization in the best light? okay We've made a mistake.’ But try and always end on a positive note. And I think above all the message that we would want to to give to you is, Don't let the media happen to you. Try and be as much in control of the situation as you can be. There will be situations where it's, it's more difficult. Try and be as much in control of the situation as you can be, and ask the right questions. And then, do your best when you get there. And I think that's probably about as much as I want to say actually about the news the news interviews. I think, I hope we've pointed out to you the essential differences between what Brian would be looking for as a, as a magazine editor if you like, and what I would be looking for as a, as a news editor. okay? Right. Thank you. So — shall we split them into the two groups straight away, Liz? I — Yes, I would think so. Right. I think that — we've got three groups but we're going to make you two for the purposes of this exercise. Rather than just listening to us do all the work, we're going to divide up into two groups just to do one or two trial interviews as it were, to get the feeling for the thing, to get some of your opinions coming up. Can I suggest, quite arbitrarily, that you take all the people on that side, plus the three people in the front row, into the Right. We'll go over there. And — just for ten minutes, ten or fifteen minutes, and the others stay with me, and we'll just try our hands at a couple of Right. We'll start, and move on. One of the features of, of the media which I think I mentioned earlier, certainly to one group if not the whole lot, is that people in the media cut things to the last moment, and the final second, it's part of the adrenaline, we've a chance to, make people move in. Bob Satchwell? Yes. He's just arrived. Just arrived, has he? Well that's exactly what I mean, a very good illustration of somebody who makes himself more important by coming in fifteen and a half seconds late, which is not so late for a corporate session, but is late enough to, to make everyone worry and so on in that time. So I think what I will do is, in view of the fact that be brave and get here, I think I will still Yes. I think so, yes, that's right. various aspects. What we really want to do is to get him to respond to some of our press releases and to comment from his perspective of what the press is actually looking for. He's he's shot himself in the foot in one sense, because he doesn't know what we've said already, so he may come and say exactly the same thing that we've been saying, in which case we will cheer and you will boo. For obvious reasons. Or he may come and contradict everything we've said, in which case you will cheer and we We creep out the door! So let me just say a few things before he does arrive, and catch his breath and perhaps have a cup of tea, on, on a topic which we, it's not fully listed but I think is worth just mentioning, and that is writing for the press, because it may occur to you and in fact you may yourself on occasions, write things for the press. That's another way of doing things. You may write articles, you may write little bits and actually send them. There's a lot of free-lance work which is actually used in the media, and there's a lot of opportunity for people. In fact it's sometimes said that it's one of the very great privileges of the public is that they can, by dint of writing something, and putting it in an envelope with a stamp on it, get it to arrive on an editor's desk, and have the editor at least give a cursory glance if not a more serious glance at what's going on, so it's a privilege and it's an opportunity in that case. So I just want to run through very, very quickly some of the things which will sound very familiar, because a lot of the, a lot of the information is very similar to the information we've been putting before you in terms of the radio and television situations. There's always a hook. I mentioned earlier as an illustration, when you pick up a, a magazine,magazine or a newspaper or a local magazine or whatever, you are conscious of the hook. Perhaps you're not conscious, you're unconscious of the hook, but you do respond to the hook. You pick it up and you thumb through and you think, you look at a headline, you look at a picture, you first look at a first paragraph and you think, ‘This is, this is for me.’ And the same's true if you're actually writing something. If you're at the other end, you're actually producing something, bear in mind your opening sentence, your opening paragraph, your headline, your title, must actually hook people in. And if you don't do that, then you will not get your material accepted. If you do do that, then the editor will actually read it, because the editor will say, ‘This is somebody who knows what the game is.’ And they will see, now that is appropriate, this is something which could interest, could concern my readers, and yes, they will be drawn in and they will read more of it. So that's an important first feature in terms of writing. House style is very important. You know when I was giving the introduction I talked about targeting, studying and so forth. You're an idiot if you submit an article or a piece of any kind to a magazine, to a newspaper, without actually having looked at it, and studied it, and asked yourselves the question, ‘What sort of house style is it? How do they write? Is it formal, informal chatty? How is it actually written?’ Once you're doing that, in that, you're in the position, once you've done that, you're in the position to actually offer something yourself. Because you will not have it accepted if it is not in the house style, and there are conventions, appropriate, and quite different, according to the magazine, the newspaper, and so on and so forth, so you need to acquaint yourself with the house style. You need to bear in mind your target reader. Again, this is repetitive, but it's so important I had to keep saying it, that you know what you want to say, but does the person who's potentially the reader want to read it? The editor will know that, and the editor will be sensitive to the readership, and the editor will look at it, not through the eyes of an editor just as an individual, but will say, ‘Putting myself in the, in the position of my readers, would they want to read this?’ And they'll read it from that point of view, and they'll accept it or reject it on that basis. You want to provide material which is sufficiently different, not the same that's there, but conforms to the house style, conforms to the format and so forth, but is sufficiently different and new, that it's actually worth printing. If there've been a whole series of articles articles about health or about food or something like that, no way are they going to do anything else on the subject, unless it's, it's brought in a very fierce readers' letters column or something like that, in which case they may be open for another slant. So you need to be familiar. And it's very insulting to an editor to receive an article on a subject, when the previous week or the previous month there's been a very similar article, because that says, ‘This person really doesn't know what my journal's about, what my newspaper's about’ and so forth. So you really, there's no excuse and no substitute for actually studying. New angles on old stories. Now one of, a very good way of getting in, is actually to think of the editor's problems during the course of the year. Problems associated with festivities — Christmas, Easter, summer holidays, pancake Tuesdays, things like that. Each time this comes up, an editor groans and thinks, ‘My goodness, we've got to say something about this, but can we say something different?’ And that gives you a very good opportunity if you can think of something different, to actually put this forward. And it's very useful in, particularly in that respect, to give a bit more time, notice, I mean, several months in some cases, if you can actually signal, something that is useful that you can contribute and send it in, that will help them plan that far ahead. Normally you don't you wouldn't be working on that sort of time scale. Bear in mind the use of photographs. There are certain upper class journals that use photographs a great deal, so if you can get a good photograph of something, that will already begin to sell it, in a sense. And there are certain situations as if you can't have a photograph, in a sense, there's no point in it, because it, in itself, it's a rather dry little article, but if you can have a fun photograph with somebody doing something with it, that gives you another dimension, another possibility of a hook, another bit of scope for, for, for getting something into the media. So bear in mind photo opportunities and indeed getting photographs yourself and sending them in with appropriate captions to the magazine or newspaper and so on. In terms of photographs, do be careful how you handle them, do be careful how you send them in, don't write on the back the captions in ball-point pen so it comes through and wrecks the front of the photographs. Make sure that, sure they're good quality photographs, normally black and white, sharp, appropriate and so forth, and make sure that you've got sufficient details associated with it, often a good way of doing it is by having a, something typed on a slip of paper which is just very slightly stuck to the, to the back so the editor can actually see what the thing is and can take it off if he needs to when the picture is actually being reproduced. Bear in mind irritating things like perspective. If you're describing on the left is the mayor and on the right is something else, make sure it's viewed from the front of the photograph and not the back of the photograph, otherwise you'll get yourself in all sorts of difficulties and it may make a nice editorial, nice letters to the editor, but it would be very irritating to to the editor, because they hate having mistakes pointed out to them, and that's picture perspective. Very irritating to the mayor as well. Don't forget that if you are going to quote other people at length, you have to check on whether you're going to be in breach of copyright, you have to be careful how to quote things, and don't forget that if you are actually quoting you need to give some indication of where the quotation comes from and make and check out that that's all right , either by getting permission or, or actually giving, there's a certain degree of flexibility. You're allowed relatively small quotations of other people without being accused of plagiarism and breach of copyright, but you have to do it advisedly, so make sure you know the rules if you actually do this. Now, the last thing I want to say, because I know we, our guest is here, and so presumably has collected his thoughts and is able to leap into the breach, the last thing I want to say on this is, writing articles, writing pieces, is a game, another area where practice makes perfect. The skills come through doing it again and again and again, by sending them off, by getting a feeling for it, by practising. And one, if you ever wanted to do a bit of homework, to actually really get into the mood for something like this, you want to take a, a single piece, a single little newsy thing, and just practise, try and write it for half a dozen different outlets. You know, exactly the same thing, but changing the language, changing the format, and changing the so forth in such a way that it would correspond to a woman's magazine, or a local newspaper or a national newspaper or a, or a trade magazine and so forth. Exactly the same thing, that's a very good way of actually teaching yourself a house style. I always say ‘one last thing’, but I always add another last thing to a last thing because I'm an academic by nature and that's, that's the curse of the profession. Bear in mind how things are still to some extent put into newspapers these days. You start, by and large, with the all the story and the headline, all the picture, all the first paragraph, and then you expand, you go into ever-increasing bits,loops in terms of adding additional information. You see these, that's how these things are written. They're done because the old-fashioned way of doing a, putting something together is a paste-up job, you've got all these stories filed about all sorts of things, and then some editorial chap or chapess sits down with sort of paste and scissors and cuts the things off, and they tend to cut things off the bottom to make it all fit until it feels about right. This is done electronically now, but the principle is, is often the same, and the instinct is to do it the same. So if you're writing something which is in the form of a newsy form of activity, bear in mind the sort of ever-increasing circles. ‘Man Bites Dog.’ Headline. ‘Last Tuesday in Cambridge High Street a man got so angry with a dog he bit it.’ That's the first sentence/paragraph, and then you go into ever-increasing things. The point of that is that, by and large, you don't distort the thing very much by chopping little bits off the bottom until it actually fits on the page. That's the final thing. Right. I'm Can we cut and paste Bob? I'm going to cut and paste Bob. Bob, would you like to — Robert, would you like to introduce Bob? This is getting positively incestuous. Without further ado as they say, let me introduce to you Bob Satchwell, who is editor of the Cambridge Evening News, and formerly Deputy Editor, Bob, of ? Assistant. Assistant Editor of the News of the World. Obviously a paper like the News of the World has lots of assistants, more than deputy. Bob,is a local person, in fact he lives in the village of Girton here,and to, to, to my knowledge takes a keen interest in local news and in local local affairs,since he's been editor of the Evening News I, I, I perceive a more lively style creeping into the paper. I may be wrong. Right. okay, well one last thing, I start with the last thing at the beginning,strangely, I mean you're obviously getting all the technical details and all the expertise from people who know far better than I do, so I'm not going to go into much technical detail until perhaps a bit later, which might come up if we get a debate going or when I look at your press releases. Let me say from the outset that you may find it surprising that we have an awful lot in common. My first rule of journalism goes back to something which was written down or reputed to have been said by H L Mencken, who was a, an American prize-winning journalist and commentator. He described journalism as being about comforting the afflicted and afflicting the comfortable. So should you. Now we also both suffer from ambivalence. On our side it's, you know, don't believe everything, anything, sorry not everything but anything you read in the papers, and yet, at the same time, every national newspaper on a Saturday night at about eleven-thirty gets a phone, series of phone-calls all saying, ‘Please settle this argument for us we just been talking about the winner of the F A Cup Final in nineteen forty-three’ or something, and that, you know, and, so we've got the public out there saying ‘Don't believe what you read in the newspapers’yet, ‘Settle our arguments.’ So, we're looked at in an ambivalent way. Part of the reason for that is because sometimes even the press gets it wrong, or at least we used to get it wrong. You'll remember in the bad old days, in the bad old days before high technology caught up with us, when we used to have more literals than in your average your average academic textbook, which takes some doing. And, you know, the sort of things which you can remember, which I can remember, some of the glorious ones, one when I was working up in Lancashire,about this time of year when the, the new May Day Bank Holiday was announced in about nineteen seventy-two or three or something and through five editions of the Lancashire Evening Post was a headline which said ‘New Pubic Holiday’. The whole legion of them from all sorts of different things, you know, there was the, the one about the, the secretary of the, of the club, the secretary of some organization, youth organization, said, in her annual reports, commented on how many young girls they'd managed to get in the club that year. Or there was the one even in the, even in the God spot, the religious column which said ‘The spirit of God hoovered on the waters’. In ads they came up, there was the one in the, in the property ads about the sexy detached house with two deception rooms. But the one I like best of all was about Sir Francis Chichester, who circumcised the globe in his twenty-four foot cutter. So, I think that's part of, part of the reason why we, we get this strange view. Now but for you, you see, one man's protest is a about river pollution, for example, a good example. One man's protest about, about industrial effluent pouring into a river or pouring into the air above a beautiful city is another man's profit. In Cambridge,one man's snack is another man's filthy pong. I think for those of you who don't live here, if you fancy a hot dog, you can't have onions with it if you buy it in the city centre, because the smell of cooking onions is banned. Now, as I say, one man's protest is one man's pleasant meal, or, or, or his profit. So there's ambivalence towards you. And I just sort of wonder how we could possibly address some of that. I think in the current atmosphere of local government reform, I mean maybe there is an answer there, I mean you work for local councils but much of your role is concerned with statutory instruments if you like, statutory issues, issues which have got absolutely nothing to do with the people who are supposedly making the decisions which you're supposed to implement, they're made nationally, and you have to implement them. And I think there are a lot of other people in local government who do that. Could you be removed from the local government service and perhaps help in the poll tax debate? I mean there's a thought for you. On balance I think I think that it wouldn't be a good thing to do that, simply because most of your work also involves local perceptions of what is good, what is bad, what is right, what is wrong. Again in Cambridge, apart from the onions, we have May Balls. They're peculiar to Cambridge,and perhaps Oxford. First they happen in June that's that's a good starter for one, and they're really not that big a problem and I guess people in London would just laugh at the prospect of the noise which which May Balls cause and not worry about it in one way and would not have telephone calls to the local council and lots of stories in my newspaper every year. We're about to start them again probably in the next week or two. But at the heart of that issue I you know that specific issue I think is a good example of the of of the problem which I see you facing is that I think it's more not so much about the noise but about the fact that we have a relatively privileged few people who are enjoying going to these May Balls I mean and enjoying the end of their exams, staying up all night, and I wonder in fact if it's more a matter of sour grapes rather than environmental health. But anyway I know it takes up a lot of time and a lot of our columns. Now a cursory look through our library cuttings today shows me the huge range of work in which you're involved. I mean it was cursory, it became cursory when I saw the bloody pile of stuff that I'd got to read, and I thought, ‘Well I'll you know we'll skip that and I'll just say what a wonderful lot you are for doing so much.’ But in fact just there's something like on one of our library files there's something like three or four card indexes all related to it. Because I just in my normal sort of intelligent way asked the librarian to come up with lots of cuttings on environmental health and let me have a quick little read, this was probably about twenty to three or something you know I probably needed about three weeks to do it. And it seems to me that your problem is that, on the one hand you have a big and relatively easily you have you have you have a big job, but with big, but relatively defined, easily defined issues on your hands. We all get het up about health scares, salmonella, God knows what, and pollution and so on,and we all have views on things like Sunday trading or whatever and not that we all agree on any of these things. But then you also, as I see it, have to play the conciliators, between between neighbours in disputes about noise or whatever, bonfires, things like that. Now all I can say about that is it seems to me you're braver than the rest of us but we try to keep out of it. Now, obviously, within all of that, what that shows me and just common sense tells me, is that you've obviously got a very vital role but there are problems. The first is that you are part of local government and sadly local government as a service has an image, a profile,even a stance which it it it doesn't really deserve. The rest of the world looks on local government and tends to yawn. We see that every May election time when people don't even bother to turn out to vote and so on. And I think that's a that's a great pity, it's a great shame that that image is there. I I don't know, probably we as newspapers are fairly guilty of preserving that image, but I also believe that those of you who are in local government service in whatever field,and that includes both officers and politicians have something to do yourselves there to try to restore that image. Now the second problem is that we all value our freedoms and we the greatest thing that we all have in our lives, whether it's in work,or whether it's in our marriages or just in our social life, we all value our freedom and initiative, we want to be able to use our own initiative. Your arrival on the scene immediately threatens that freedom, that initiative to, you know, there we have somebody coming along to say, ‘No, you can't do that.’ And that's bad news, I mean, and I'm sure you'd feel that way yourselves in many I think basically no one welcomes the interfering busybody, as you may be looked upon, but then strangely, and again this is where the ambivalence comes in, when it suits us, you're of course our knights in shining armour. So how do we, how do we deal with this strange ambivalence and the sort of problems you're coming up you're facing? It seems to me that while you work initially for local councils and local councillors who should,obviously, be the people who have the power and the say,and far be it from me to recommend that you ignore or even threaten to undermine the democratic process,however imperfect it it it may it may be, you have you are working for that local council. But environmental standards, as I see it, and whatever form now, whether in the posh green sense or the nitty gritty sense, which is equally as important and sometimes forgotten,environmental standards transcend, obviously transcend politics and so what I want to, would would would want to do, is to try to strip off the politics and indeed to strip off the emotion, because that's the other thing which I think affects any real consideration of environmental issues. I think, obviously you've you've got your own organization, your own professional standards and things, I think they need to be developed and, more importantly, promoted themselves to the public, and then, to take it a bit further and to try and escape that straitjacket which I think which in this country particularly all public servants are limited by. To try and escape that kind of straitjacket and to speak out. I think probably one of the key things that I would want to get over to you is that we, we don't actually hear from you enough. I think, I'll come back to that a little bit when we get on to some consideration of these press releases. The fact that you're actually responding to an, to an issue is often the problem. What I want, would like to see, and I think is in your interest and the public's interest is actually to, to not just be responding but to be,to be reactive but to be pro-active, and to be going out onto the streets as it were. Now obviously that requires a more precise working knowledge of newspapers and the other media, what they want, when and how they need it, what the sort of particular publication is, you've been discussing some of that and we can perhaps go into some of that in, in a bit more detail a bit later on. But if you can raise that profile which I talk about, the of the ethics of of your trade, your profession and become, in effect, a pressure group, a pressure group for the public good, while we may not always agree with you, and indeed we're going to say that we don't agree with you and you mustn't be afraid of that but we would rather hear from you,you're the men and women at the sharp end, I hesitate to say ‘experts’ because ‘expert’is a, a rather over-used word but we'd much rather hear from you, at the sharp end, than the part-time politicians who, by the very nature of , of their role, and however well-meaning they may be, they have other priorities. I think you must strike a very fine balance. But you must be, or you must become, very much your own men and women because newspapers everywhere and all the other parts of the media are only, are just sitting there with baited breath aching for that phone to ring from you, to tell us things, because virtually anything which you get involved in, is likely in one way or another to be controversial. Anything can be made controversial and the stuff of newspapers is obviously controversy. Now, as I say, the politicians may be your bosses and what I'm suggesting may well upset many of them. So be it and probably a very good thing. But in the end, you know, you work for the, for the people and not the politicians. So, of course you might be running into trouble by doing too much, by being over-zealous and when you do things, or you may also be inviting criticism and inviting the, the great fickle hand of of bureaucratic power down upon you by doing too little too late, and that's often the , that's often the criticism which people in your profession and several other professions get accused of. But I would say to you, ‘Be bold, and take the risks.’ And I think first of all, make sure you've got it right, make sure you are doing things for the right reasons, and you are concerned about the right issues, but then, shout about it from the rooftops. And I think that is the message which I want to get over to you, because if you can find that way to tread that difficult line which is there in our society which is over-protective, over-secretive,which is concerned about not not letting people unless they're of a certain rank, level or certain job, speak out publicly unless you can break through it I think you're actually, first of all, denying something for yourselves, and that you're denying something for the public at large. My basic feeling is that while it is reasonable to ask that that a council, as a council, as a political grouping, may make the decisions about things, it is an absolute nonsense that many, many councils — some of them are worse than others — will not let their professionals speak out on their you know from using their own expertise, their own knowledge, their own experience, and quite often that that debate, the whole debate is gagged by the fact that you're employees of the council. Now somehow I want you to break out of that and to, as I say, shout it from the rooftops, because in the end, the public applause from that will protect you from those who might seek to neuter you in that role. So that's what I want you to do. Think about it, get it, get the issues there, and then shout about them. We're waiting to hear from you. okay? Shall we move over to press releases and then you can ask questions generally? Does that sound a sensible way of proceeding? What I think would be nice is if, if one or two people from each group came and laid claim to some of these things and we went through them and we sort of read them out loud because it's a bit hard to read there, and we'll see what Bob's view is on this and . ‘Recycling is not rubbish.’ Is there a talk about this or comment on it? The others have not had an opportunity of, of actually seeing this, so I wonder if I could ask you just to read it out and we can all share Perhaps I ought to know what the scenario was. The scenario — have you got the scenario there? I've got it here. Yes, here we are. This is the scenario, and they had to go away and ask, write a press release in that scenario. Would you like to read your scenario? The scenario is: Your council is about to launch a full-scale project aimed at recycling their extent range of materials including glass, paper, plastic, metals and textiles. Local consultation's taken place with a view to establishing a series of centres throughout Yardley Street where members of the public can bring materials for recycling, and you have made appropriate for the materials to be collected and dealt with. What you now need is some really good publicity to get the scheme off to a start. So would you like to just read what you've written there so that, because I don't think everyone can see, and I think this is than just to read, is that what you want me to do? Just read it okay Straight-faced if you possibly can. Right. Right. The heading is ‘Recycling is not rubbish says council spokesperson’. ‘Girton Council is waging war on waste. Today Councillor I M Green, Chairman of Girton Health and Housing Committee, challenged residents at the start of a campaign to promote recycling over a thousand plus tonnes of waste, generated weekly within Girton District. ‘Bring your bottles, paper and cans to your local centre,’ said Councillor Green. ‘We are determined to stop this disgraceful waste of the earth's resources.’ The first for a Recycling Centre will open on the fifteenth of April, nineteen ninety-one, at Garden Place, Girton, when the Mayor Ivy Mission will launch the scheme at eleven o'clock, by breaking an empty champagne bottle on the front of the first glass recycling skip. At this and nine other sites located around the borough, will be facilities for tins, paper, plastics and textiles. The nine other sites are’— we'll just put because they're not in, writing this thing —’ and they will open from the first of May nineteen ninety-one between nine and six p.m. each day of the week. Editor: If more information is required, please contact Girton's Recycling Officer,Mush Cather Dump This is an ethnic minority and so contingent on oh one two three, four five six seven eight, between eight forty-five and five, Monday to Friday. Date: twelfth of April, nineteen ninety-one, for immediate release.’ Right. Now supposing that landed on your desk. Well look the first thing to occur and immediately comes to mind is that if I was going to be really evil I would I'd just stick it away in a quite drawer or wait until the day, and I'd turn up when she was breaking the the bottle, the empty bottle over over the the skip, we'd do a picture of her actually littering up the countryside. There's a thought for you. Just be careful. I mean obviously that's stretching a point in one way, but just be careful what you're leaving yourself open to, because there are men and women in journalism who are far more evil than I am. This is true. But one of the things, obvious at first, that, one of the first things about any kind of journalism apart from apart from , in your specialist journals and so on , is that they're about newspapers are about people, so obviously get the people in and there's a, a very good very good you've got the person, you've got you've got you've got someone in up at the top and saying something. Now the only thing I would criticize that for is that, quite often,your councillors, and you all know, think they are all wonderful words and I think they all think that they're the Churchills of of of of our local council, but actually what they say is a load of boring old twaddle. And it's very rare that you get a brilliant quote out of them including this one You know, hardly get a go-round in the in the Dictionary of Quotations but at least you got the person there which is right, but in actual fact, how I might have treated that and I might what might have grabbed me a little bit more would have been the story which I would be looking for, I'd be looking for my journalist to turn that into and therefore you might as well try and do it for us, because journalists like, like count on your labour, as I If someone's done half your work for you you're going to react in a different way. What I would be looking for there is that you've got a council, I don't know how many people there are, and you've got a thousand plus tonnes of waste you know you've got a waste mountain being produced. And somewhere along there you could say, ‘Right.’ Depending on the type of paper, you know, ‘Girton produces a thousand plus waste mountain every week’— that kind of line, and in fact even better still is to really get it down to, to humanize it and to translate it as roughly as you need to and into round figures, and use a little journalistic licence and say, you know, ‘Every person in Girton generates so many tonnes of waste, you know, each.’ Get it like that and that sort of thing which is gripping, it's different, and it's it's it's something people can relate to immediately as well. So that's what I would have gone to there. But I mean otherwise it's got all the, all the good points in there, it's a pity that councils don't have these meaningful names But otherwise it's basically I think it's, it's all there, all you're trying to do at this stage is, is to give, your aim here is to get is to get firstly, first of all, to get it on the diary, on the picture editor's diary for your picture, and also to get the basic information in so that somebody can write a few cards as an advance to say it is going to happen. So that mostly from A to Z . One last point which I you know you don't actually need the wasted line and a bit here. Everyone knows the councils only work from eight forty-five You know you don't need to tell us and in fact what you should be doing is in fact trying to develop relationships with your local papers and we actually have a very good relationships in Cambridge with our local council whereby it's not just a matter of, of contacting people during office hours. Newspapers, journalists don't just work office hours, I know they'd like to but they, they I don't let them but also a tremendous problem that they that that that you are always tied up in meetings and things during the day, you know, so make sure, try and develop personal contacts so you've got a decent personal contact when you don't mind giving your home number to someone. and you've got to develop the relationships so it doesn't become ridiculous and you deserve, you're disturbed every ten minutes every night of the week. But, you know, try and develop that, because that is the media sort of block, you know, ‘okay, well, if we can't get round to ringing them before five o'clock let's not bother’ sort of thing. So that's just a small point. Thank you very much. Are you going to do the other one, or is somebody else? It just occurred, let me just ask you, we were quite chuffed with the 'Recycling is not Rubbish’ here headline, did, did, was that Oh, I wouldn't even bother with the headline, quite honestly. Seriously, I mean it, it's, it's, it's, it's it's it's I'm not criticizing the headline but I wouldn't bother with it on a press release. Because it, it's, it's not particularly going to grab me because I'm going to look at it and I'm going to I'm going to look down to see what it's asking me do and certainly a busy news editor is looking down the line to see, and the first thing he'll actually do is, is just have a, a very fast glance at it, find out what it's about, and just make sure there's someone who can be phoned, and what the news editor will do is actually throw it out into a pile of other handouts and there's usually a journalist who's, who's who's won first prize and their task for the day is to do all the handouts,and all you want to be sure of is that someone can make a phone call and the news editor won't, won't bother with any with any superfluous detail, all he'd want to know is that somebody can be contacted, we'll find out about it later. Thank you very much. Would you like to read out the second one Right. ‘Worried about food? Ring the food facts. Girton today launched a unique council helpline in response to the wave of public anxiety about food safety. Councillor Grubb today made the first call to the helpline. He said, ‘In spite of the free services available to everyone, at the end of the tone is an expert available to answer your queries about food.’ Whether it be cooking times, food poisoning, dietary needs, food pests or anything to do with food, ring Oh eight hundred six seven four three two one. The service operates between nine a.m. Any other time you can leave a message on the answerphone and someone will call you back. Any queries contact Principal Food Officer, Peter Bray. Thank you very much. So, Bob, what do you have to say about that one? Well, I, I, the, the, the great thing about it, and this is, this is where so many press releases go wrong, the great thing about this one is that it is brevity. And, you know, I get stuff which comes at me and I pass on to someone else and gradually the process goes until it finishes up in the wastepaper bin, and usually they're the ones which are the longest which don't get read. This, this, you know, is saying something very, very simple, it's telling you straight away,okay it's, it is, it is quite nice to have the quote in there again as I say,if somebody, if somebody is trying to do a little advance story, to say, you could all, you could from there you could actually write something which, without having to go back and make a phone call. I'd make obviously straight away after nine a.m. to five p.m. but put it on tape for God's sake we can't stand this you know. Yes I mean even though what I was saying about don't worry about the, the, the headlines,you know, it it is there you are, and the last one, but you're actually just giving someone a clue if they wanted to, or if they wanted to find out very briefly what it is about. Yes, I, I, I find because it's, because it's short,that's fine. What would you say about the fact, the thing that struck me about that, ‘Councillor Grubb today made first call to the helpline, he said, ‘a free service’ which, to me, sounded as though what he actually said down the phone to the helpline was No, no, no, I take your point, but I didn't mean that, it's the way I'd read the press release, I wasn't the one reading it, so certainly they it would that would be please don't forget I mean no one is going to really knock for your English No. I mean, God's sake, let them particularly journalists are the last people to insult So don't worry overmuch about it. As long as you make the point,and and in the as long as the quotes are grammatical,and as long as you can understand it, the the simple thing about any kind of communication is that you should communicate you know rather than you're not trying to win the Booker Prize, are you, so just as long as you get the information over don't worry too much about the, the journalism. I mean certainly I have to say I think most journalists wouldn't even have noticed that You know the speed of reading English. You'd have highlighted it and sent it back. Yes I would highlight it and send it back. The point I keep making is that in a press release they ought to include at least enough information briefly so that whoever's reading it can pick up the angle or the possible use. Or the hook. That's right. Need some information but also if they you know something which could actually make it Yes. of interest to the public, Yes. include at least a hint about that That's right. because the editor picks it up and say ‘I can use that because I can see an angle, I could use it in this way or that way or, Yes. or another way, That's right. And if you, if you don't do that, many people will pick it up and say, you know, ‘There's been a new thing, what the hell, I don't see how I can use it,’ into the wastepaper basket. Well that's right, yes, and the other thing as well, I shouldn't really be telling you this,, because it's bad news for us but, if you in fact write a long, rambling press release, what you will find is that the journalist will almost, almost certainly go three-quarters of the way down it to find the real story which is hidden in there, and occasionally that real story is purposely hidden down in there, and you know you look at any council minutes, and the real story is always, inevitably hidden down there, because it's the bit that somebody doesn't want people to know about, and so journalists are naturally trained to go down the bit to find out what's it about. So in effect, if you write this long, long, rambling press release, you won't get over the point you were trying to do, you'll get publicity okay, but you won't get the kind of thing you wanted. Thank you very much. So, shall we just go into 'Lay Claims of the Council will move swiftly to close restaurant’? That's the one that you did That's the scenario. okay, if you could tell us the scenario, read the scenario to us and then read the press release please. district council will start investigating an outbreak of salmonella which involves forty-three confirmed cases. The outbreak has been traced to a function held at Uncle Dick's Restaurant. Whilst investigations were being carried out, it has emerged that the premises had not been inspected by an E H O for over five years. Hygiene standards and practices were found to be appalling. Acting on a local tip-off from the one of the affected cases, the local paper has questioned Council Gerald Pratt, and he has denied that, the fact that the restaurant was owned by the chairman of the Health Committee had any bearing on the matter saying that all premises are treated the same. We feel the need to restore some credibility to our programme , hence the release. Media Release is headed ‘Council moves swiftly to close restaurant’. ‘Sudbury health officers acted today to close Uncle Dick's Restaurant following an inspection of the premises. This was prompted by an investigation of a food poisoning outbreak which left forty-three people ill. All those affected had attended a function at the restaurant. The Chief Health Officer, Peter Perfect, said, ‘I'm appalled at the, sorry, at the size of this outbreak. It is the first major outbreak for many years. I am immediately introducing new measures to ensure that all high-risk premises, which include restaurants, will be looked at by some health officer every six months.’ A full report when in this matter will be made to the next meeting of the Health Committee in May.’ But then it should say at the end,‘For further information contact Right. You can't relax yet, it's not lunchtime, the bar is not open. I tell you that. We'll just keep it closed until we've finished this next session, which will be about two or three Anyway Let's start with the simply because it's we've got their findings up here. What sort of — who — could I have a spokesperson here please? I'll be very democratic. Very democratic. Sort of consortium What — somebody tell me in the group what sort of press release you had, what did it describe, so that we, the other people haven't seen it, have they? No. No, they haven't. So give us some indication of what sort of press release it was so that we know what we're talking about in the Well, it was a press release which was headed ‘Increase in Food Poisoning Cases’. It described how there had been a fifty percent increase in food poisoning cases in district year and then it went on to say that it, it was largely, it was thought that that increase was largely because of the increased publicity which the council had been given hygiene training, and saying how many people had been trained, and how the Health Committee was being asked to provide more resources so there could more courses even, even more courses in the following year. okay That's, that's a very nice outline. You must have meant something about this These — this is what this group think of it in terms of some of the pros and cons. Would somebody like to, from the group, other than Robert, like to tell us a little bit about the pros? Let's be positive about this. Right. We said it was, we said it was reasonably short, and fairly concise in the format we were given. Right. It did actually That's an advantage, in other words. We think so, yes. okay Short, concise, right. Then go on. It gave the name of a contact point to follow up information, although some of us had reservations about whether it should have been the person who was actually quoted in the press release Right. and not some other person who might contradict it, okay the original quote. Yes. It explained the problems although we were a bit— we'll go on to the cons in a minute. It did actually explain in one key phrase what, what the newsworthy bit was, which was the pivot sentence ‘fifty percent increase’, in applications. okay Now hold, hold on just for a moment. Going back to your earlier point, the, the press do need to have a contact, and it's very important that the contact is contactable and that, that they haven't gone away for a holiday during the two weeks in which the the thing is an issue. It's an obvious, but it's, it's not a point that is always coped with properly. The press also quite like to to talk to the people who are actually doing the business. So if you have a press officer, that's fine, but the press do like beyond the press officer and actually talk to the officer, the individual concerned. So that's worth bearing in mind, and how you handle it, I mean maybe the press officer makes an arrangement to facilitate the the actual contact, but the press officer, a good press officer is not a person who stops the press getting into an organization, a good press officer is somebody who facilitates the press getting into the organization in the right way and talking to the right people preferably about the right things, but if not the right things the wrong things to the right with the right people, if you understand what I'm saying. He's a facilitator, he's a marriage bureau, a press officer. ‘Oh yes, you want to talk to, you could talk to that person.’ That, that's, that And your other point was that it had some quite specific information about what the problem was. Yes. And there wasn't a lot of getting in first before the newsworthy That's right. item was . If you're going to, if you're going to be knocked for something, make sure you're knocked for the right thing, that's what you're really saying. So, so make a clear, definitive statement of what it is, so that the rumour doesn't leak over, and you find yourself answering rumours, you're actually answering problems about facts which you can substantiate rather than rumours which you have to deny and then substantiate the facts. Thank you. What was the On the, on the down side, some of us felt that the, the actual heading could have been, might get picked up verbatim by a news editor and used almost in that form. Yes, could you remind us what the heading was? ‘Increase in ‘Increase in Food Poisoning Cases’. Some of us felt that, you know, the fifty percent, if that were the crucial figure,and doubling the food poisoning for instance, might have been , might be a more snappy headline. I just felt that journalistic — well, editorial licence would mean that that would get chopped about anyway so it was just a waste of time to rewrite it. There's a sense in which editors are very good at deciding what headlines are, and there's, there's a sense which you can't do a great deal about it. If they want their own snappy one they would, you're quite right, it's not necessarily handing them the bad one on a plate just in case they might use it. I think our crucial criticism of the whole press release was that the, it was that the good news, if you like, that the council were doing something pro-active about food poisoning came secondary, was a secondary issue in the press release, the main, the main thing was the bad news, and it could have been turned round. You The council are, know about the problem, they are responding by doing X, and by the way, it's still on the increase or, you know, we know that this is happening. This is a very important way of handling statistics, isn't it, in a sense, I mean, if you're talking about, in another context, if you talk about recidivism, and, and you say forty percent of people who go into prison reoffend within the following five years, that's the down side, or you could say sixty percent don't, or sixty percent keep out, and it's all a question of how you actually phrase it. What we also said Important to get in the positive. There were two messages in the press release and maybe that was, that was, that was the wrong move, it should have concentrated on one or other of the issues, and the message might be lost through the double-header. You had one very good piece of news, which was ‘During the past year the Environmental Health Department has run fifteen courses for food handlers, and one hundred and eighty-seven people have passed the examination.’ But that was at the bottom of the second paragraph. Absolutely. In my book, that would have been your, your key point. It would have gone on to say,, that cases of food poisoning had risen by fifty percent, and then Mr Chadwick saying, ‘It's likely we're receiving more notifications.’ But I mean you've, you've actually passed up your good news by putting it so far down that the editor might well have read the first paragraph. We're back to the whole problem Yes. Absolutely. You read the first paragraph which says, ‘Cases of food poisoning in Canberra have risen’,everybody says, ‘Oh, crumbs.’ But in fact the good news is that you run these courses for food handlers and the hope is that by running these courses you won't have so many cases of food poisoning. And you brought out some general points here, haven't you? Well we did rewrite it, the council initiative would come first, Yes, that's right. The statistics might be more easily presented, instead of small numbers being presented for the reader should he care , which is roughly what we would do. And we thought the contact, some of us thought the actual crunch should be the contact, provide the issue with a person on the ground. mhm The fact that it's the Chief Officer, the media aren't particular interested in hierarchies of local government. No. They want They just want to the person who's actually Very much so. Well thank you very much. That's a good start. Yes. Does anybody else want to comment on Yes. the pros and cons? I think it could have been even more positive by using the whole thing to sell Canberra's food, food handling courses. It could have been totally inverted, couldn't it? Yes. ‘People are understandably concerned about food problems and so forth. We have taken a new initiative, brand new initiative, we've set up a whole new scheme doing this that and the other da da da, and in a sort of a tail end, Contact the This is, yes, contact that, this is important, because it's clearly that there is an increase, there's some evidence of an increase of these things as a sort of little tail end thing, it would have been perfectly good story but quite the other way round. And a legitimate hook because people are concerned about food and eating and so forth, and that, that would have been a hook you could grab people with, and most people would have thought ‘That would be something I want to read about.’ Well it, that's interesting. The worst thing about it as it stands, in the exercise, is it actually implies that the more food hygiene education goes on, the more food poisoning Yes. By giving an excuse for, as it, it goes like this business if you try and cover something else now. Yes. The other, the other weakness it possibly turned up is that, my experience is that, unless something bad there, the press don't really want to do anything about it, if you're just trying to sell your wares and say how good you are, and then hide a bit behind , I mean they'll turn around anyway the circle , must be something. Well, you've obviously had some bad experiences, but I think one of the, one of the best defences is actually not to sell your wares, I mean who's interested in your wares, but actually to try and state what you're doing in such a way that it is of some interest. or whatever it is. That's the whole point of repackaging that I was trying to get across this morning. You've got to actually say ‘This is for you’. And if you were doing a little programme on, on yogurt and they were sort of going at it absolutely straight for the ‘You watch this and you're going to do that and you're going to do the other’. Don't say that. Start from the point of view that, when we were children, we were told to drink our milk, it's good for you. Now we're told to, you know, beware of having too much fats, too much milk, too much this, that and the other because it creates all sorts of what's the truth? And then, what they were wanting to get across,Hang on then, the reason why it's put there is that most people are, are now acutely conscious of, of having too much fat, too much milk, too much this, that and the other, and it, and it grabs some people and it's a legitimate way in. And they were able to place that subsequently because it was a, was a relevant thing that people wanted to read, and it was recognized as such by the organizations concerned. But I mean I, if they want to be nasty they're going to be nasty, in a sense, and, and if they can't see a positive way of using something, but they still want to get it in, then the obvious thing to do is to be nasty about it. You know, it's much, it's much easier to be nasty about something than it is to be nice about something. You know the old adage that , I mean one of the reasons is it's so much easier to come up with a scandal, to come with a rats in the basement or something like that and intrigue people, than it is to come up with some, the positive angles. It's not to say that the positive news it doesn't work if in fact it is of interest to people, and it strikes them as, as such, and there are all sorts of subterfuges incidentally ranging from using facts and statistics and which relate to people, to even actually using individual stories. People. Reader's Digest, article on road traffic accidents, never starts, ‘Last year there were fifty thousand road traffic accidents in the British Isles’, because Reader's Digest readers don't want to read that. Always start ‘Tall, good-looking Mary Smith, as she stepped out of her cottage that morning, did not realize she would not see her children until the following, three months later. The sun was in the sky, the birds were singing, as she kissed the children good-bye and said, ‘.’ She was yet more victim of the terrible carnage of the British roads.’ Why? Because all of us are suckers, whether we admit to reading the Reader's Digest or not, Knowing what happens to tall, good-looking Mary Smith when she stepped outside of her cottage and something awful happened. It's psychology, you see. So that's a totally artificial way of doing it. But it's something which even you could use if you had a specific, good example of a specific situation could, which could be turned into news. An individual is something, something that's very good. Yes, but the pro-active, the good news often is not a good enough hook, I mean in my experience, the local media, they do want, the hook has to be, at least in the, in the initial phase has to be bad news. I don't accept that, I really don't accept that. You have to work harder to get a good news hook, but it, but it, it still exists and people still are interested, provided it's a hook. certain situations you really need people and so forth, they're actually extraordinarily good news. Can I comment on Just a moment please the way that was laid out? That was quite a well laid-out press release. It was double spacing, wide margins and one side of the page and only one page of A four. The way to get into the editor's heart is to lay it out so that it can actually be read. Journalists on the whole are fairly lazy people, they're also fairly pressured people, if you give them something which they can virtually print verbatim, they will be enormously happy people and you will increase your chances of actually hitting the news. Can I just say in, in relation to your comment, I understand clearly what it is you're saying, but what we're saying is,how is the best way to present a press release? If the editor decides to invert the press release, you've actually done the right thing in putting your good point first. You can't stop the editor from inverting it, obviously, but, but what we're saying to you is, as far as your organization is concerned, you want to try and present the, you know the good news first. Shall we go on to the next thing? Yes, just, can we just, while I'm thinking about this, try and think of positive things. If you're starting an educational campaign, you want people to cooperate, to do something, how do you do it? You don't just say, ‘Give me a hand in this campaign for everyone to put out their dustbins ’ You try to get the mayor to do it, or Princess Diana to do it, or a hundred-year-old lady,in the district or Rumanian orphans. I mean this makes it immediately newsworthy, because it links in with what people are interested in. That's why people set up Right. This is true. So would somebody from Group A like to tell us what Group B press release was about. Yes. It was a press release following the Chief Environmental Health Officer preempting a report that was being made to the council going to be implemented for the use of the Environmental Protection Act, and goes on to list them in indented form. It makes the point that additional will be needed and extra money . And that probably sums it up. It's laid out in single spacing, indented with the various points numbered, a contact point at the end, which is literally T. Green and a telephone number, and that's, that concludes it. It starts off one of the first things we didn't like was the title. It starts ‘New Launch to Cut Pollution’. We felt that really needed to be considerably punchier to attract attention and we would have thought that it really needed to be ‘New Launch gets Canbord council market a tough new policy’. Right. The second paragraph goes on about the report to council Environmental Services Committee by the District Chief. It gets very long and involved. We wanted to that down to a straightforward ‘The Chief, District Chief Environmental Health Officer, name, says the Environmental Protection Act would mean .’ The various items, it then lists six items which are indented and numbered. We wanted to remove the item numbers, straightforward, bring them in, indent the whole item, and we wanted to tie in that we, the first one, for instance, says ‘Rigid controls over can be discharged from industrial processes.’ Thought there was going to be a much look, see where it could eventually to control industrial air pollution from local industries. Got the local slant. Right. Similar sort of thing,with the other, various other items, we didn't actually have an opportunity to, to rewrite all the bits. No. When we got down to the final paragraph,Ms Green says that all this extra work will mean that more staff will be needed, and that she's asking for money. We wanted to compress that to Ms Green's asking for more staff in her department and finance these measures. The contact point is literally very brief, it's T. Green and phone number, as I said. It needed to be identified more clearly. Is it Mrs, is it Miss, is it Ms? What's their designation? So there's something a little more depth, somebody who'd you'd know how to get to . We were also, had some concern that this is being released in advance of the council's committee. And we were rather thinking that might be looking for another job very soon. Absolutely. to the press about it. So we'd want to put an embargo note on this release, so it couldn't be used prematurely . Do you In connection with embargo dates they may or may not be useful, but in relation to‘off the record’, there's no such thing as ‘off the record’ I have to tell you. Not unless you completely blackmail the person and say you, you know, you have his wife locked up and maybe even that's not a good He may want to get rid of her anyway. That's not a good illustration. But there's no, people who say things are off the record means that ‘I don't want to be,but I want it to get into the system’. You're just asking too much, it's like asking a bear not to touch a pot of honey. Never ever get into a situation where you say, ‘Well informally and off the record,’ because, because it will come back and haunt you subsequently. And it's something to do with that and an embargo date's a little bit like that, and in a sense, you may well be able to stop people actually publishing the thing, but they will still know and be working on it if it's of any importance, so use embargo dates advisedly. If you want information to go out at a specific time, time it very carefully, and just bung it out, as it were, and, and reckon it's there at that stage. If it's real dynamite, in a sense, I mean, Ah! Yes, if it's worth having, I mean they're not going to Yes. take any notice at all. Still the point was well made, I mean not sounding like you can sort of freeze an article to, not compromise the sort of committee , I mean, it is, dead if you give it away and you wouldn't consider pressure groups, they'll pick up their report and their copies anywhere, and take bits out and quote you, I mean, I mean I know I'm in this, I like to distort, like them to know our official disposition before it's dead. Yes. mhm It might have worked relationship,I mean do set up, I mean, if you get into, if you establish relations with me then it's an ongoing thing, it can be, and it ought to be, so you actually do see the same people over a period of time, and you do establish a modicum of trust, not entire trust, because it's asking too much for entire trust in all circumstances, but at least there is a certain understanding, particularly with the, on the, on the local basis. It was a pretty With this business of embargo,Liz , I'll agree with that but the, the off the record, one wants to get the local people very well and you do develop this, this trust, and if you can in fact give them a lot of scope that you know what to use. You have to be very sure about that Yes. and in, in a limited way. We must have a decent, we must have decent local men . Now, there's a Yes, I mean sense in which it's in their interest not to breach this because you won't give them the material they need That's just what I said during the news interview, wasn't it? to give you an example there are two of them. We can do that easily with the East Anglian Daily Times. They're very good, very responsible, we know them very well. We wouldn't dream of doing it with Press. Well there you are then. Yes. It was a pretty awful press release, wasn't it, actually? The, one of the other points we did, we also was that there was no indications of when this legislation was going to let these changed take place and that would have been very helpful to the editor. Yes. I mean — A, it was incredibly badly set out. It was pushed up to the top of the page. It clearly hadn't been carefully read afterwards, because there are two words run together there, I mean you do really need to, to read things for grammatical errors, errors in people's names. I can actually recall a press release which came to me about a a principal tourism officer who had just been appointed to be the head, you know the president for the year of his professional body, and in his own town a press release was put out in which his name was incorrectly spelt, and the conference at which he was about to be invested was actually taking, and I blush to say that it was in Brighton, I can only tell you when I got that press release I did what I frequently do, which is outline in highlighter the mistakes on the press release, put it back into the envelope and send it back to the relevant officer. I am not flavour of the week in some quarters as you may well imagine. On the other hand, they don't do it too frequently. Very poor, one side margins, the other side very little, squashed up to the top of the page, and as somebody said, there is T. Green, no designation, no anything, and the content is really pretty dire. I mean that is I have to say that that is the kind of press release which frequently comes across both Brian's desk and mine all too frequently. It starts where you're at, it does not start at where the receiver is at. Third one? Do you want to comment any more on that one? No, I think that's fine. okay Third group, who do you have that's going to talk to it? What's going about dates? is it more news or Right It depends on what sort of event it is,something in which Which do you want to comment on Which do you want to comment on first? There are some things which are just sort of have a fairly short lifetime, both in terms of the interest of the event and also the, also the interest of the press in it in which case you just have to use your judgement. long time to remember what's going to happen in three months' time, but if it's something related to an event like Christmas or Easter or something like that, a lot of,a lot of press people are always thinking ‘What the hell am I going to do that's different for Christmas or Easter or so forth,’ so if you do a signal, lay on a special event related to a, a time, in other words a sort of custom, a calendar custom-type event, they're going to appreciate that notice because they may do some forward planning which would actually help them in that respect. It all depends, is the answer. My contribution is that,my experience is that the hook can often be a national event. They often pick up stories in the national news. Yes. And they want a local response from mhm you, so being aware what's going on in your field nationally That's right. Dead important you should Yes. You might even be prepared to give them something whether Absolutely. it's an article That's right. We've got the Are you coming up to speak to it? No, the chap at the front is The chap, chap at the front, oh,I see, okay okay, I'm the chap at the front. Just the faults first and then we'll put the what it should Tell us about the press release Well, if you think the last one was bad wait till you see this one. I could read it out in total, perhaps the best way. It's headed ‘Press Release’. ‘The Canborough District Council has announced the suspension of its improval grants scheme.’ Paragraph. ‘The suspension to be brought about by lack of funding which is not related to the community charge level.’ Paragraph. ‘Any person who feels that he may be affected by the suspension should contact their local office.’ Paragraph. ‘The suspension will be lifted when funding is better available for development.’ Paragraph. ‘Members of the public who want further information on this release should contact the Environmental Health Department,.’ Right. Was there anything wrong with that? Right, the the comments that were written on the, the sheets on the literature basically. Too impersonal, yes. Yes, there were no quotes in it, there were no people mentioned, it seems to have no local flavour in that respect. There's no apology, you know, I'm, there's no ‘I'm sorry this is happening,’ it's just Bang bang bang,. There are no reasons for the withdrawal of funding for the grounds. And in fact any response is probably going to be negative to that, because they did such bad read-out when they read the thing that they're going to want to be pretty snotty, sort of, anything they wrote about that. Particularly if they couldn't get any more information. mhm I mean if they really sort of tried to make a story out of it and they couldn't, they contacted the council offices and everyone was on holiday or nobody'd answer the phone or what normally happens at council offices, they'd say ‘Oh, well, sod this,’ and they'd go away and they'd do the, you know, write it up in a really nasty way so It's full of the ‘So what?’ syndrome. You get to the bottom and you say, ‘So what?’ and you put it your wastepaper basket. And I have to say that that is the fate of a lot of press releases. Right you read it and you say, ‘Is this relevant to me? Is this relevant to my radio station? My paper? So what?’ And it disappears. Is that all you wanted to say about the down side? Yes, because in effect the, the positive side is, is, is the opposite. Just to, for people who can't quite remember the wording of it, the paragraph reads, ‘If there's any person who feels that they may be affected by this dispension should contact their local office.’ Then paragraph five says ‘Members of the public who want further information should blah blah blah.’ It's things like that that member of the public and I'm unaffected so what do I do? Yes, that's absolutely true and the public would have been outraged by that. So on the flip side, in other words, nothing positive about the press release but positive about one truth , what one should say for a press release. Proper heading, quality logo paper, hook, statistics, something which would lead into the thing, more friendly language, it was very bureaucratic, wasn't it, in a sense? mhm Use quotations, something which could be lifted as such. We, we thought the, perhaps a statement from the chairman of the Health and Housing Committee and another one from the Chief Environmental Health Officer might be useful. Yes. Yes. I mean you could start by saying, ‘Canborough has, has been well known for the number of grants it gives, you know, as, as the means of saying, ‘Up to now we've been the good people.’ Then the bad news and then the reason why, why it can't happen. Could have used something And, something interesting there. Editor's notes. They're a very useful addendum to any press release. You get a nice press release that fits beautifully onto one page. That, that's nice. But there are other bits of information you might want to give, like a photo opportunity,like a particular thing, something specific happening which related to the press release but's not part of it. Very useful thing for your second page if you haven't got room at the bottom of the first page is, editor's notes. ‘There will be a photo corner at eleven a.m. in the town square when the chairman will stub out his last cigarette on No Smoking Day or whatever it is.’ That is not necessarily part of the press release but it does give the editor some important information. He can ignore it or he can take profit. So, editor's notes are very useful. Any other quick comments about Before we feed you. Before you are allowed to escape. Out of the cage Well, we're going to continue with press releases after lunch, but let me just, I mean in a sense, those were fiction. So let me just give you two brief quotations from real press releases which I have, I've got piles and piles of these things. One is the baddy. ‘Department of Energy. October nineteen ninety.’ Title: ‘Fourth Annual Civil Plutonium Figures Published.’ ‘The Department of Energy has today published figures for nineteen ninety on the plutonium produced at Britain's civil nuclear power stations reprocessing at Sellafield and the civil plutonium stocks. These figures are published annually and are compiled from data now supplied by Nuclear Electric blah blah blah blah blah. The nuclear assets were previously owned by the Central Electricity Generating Board and the south of Scotland Electricity Board, who supplied similar data relating to administrations in previous years.’ No figures. No notes , things like that. ‘The plutonium content of fuel discharged from nuclear reactors and despatchment sites is shown precisely than in previous publications.’ And it, it actually, I'm being really rather unfair figures there. It concludes — you want a quote from a famous person —‘In his decision letter of the sixth of September, the Secretary of State for Energy accepted this recommendation,’ that is, that the figures are quoted in kilogrammes per stations with appropriate error bands specified for the quantities per station Are any of you still awake? ‘Accepted this recommendation while emphasizing that the estimates for the precise amount of plutonium in the fuel discharge from an individual nuclear power station in any one year has a marginal uncertainty of around plus or minus five percent, and the aggregate total of such estimates has a margin of uncertainty of around plus or minus ’ I mean They don't want people to know. designed not to Well, it's a pretty good press release press release about this Well, that, you may be right, and that's a very relevant point, thank you, in that sense. But I, I mean I use it as a, that may be the psychology behind it, but I use it as a bad example of, for obvious reasons, and there's a real bad example, and there may be some politics behind it, there's What I think is a good example: ‘Southeast Arts ’sorry, ‘Southeast Tourist Board, South of England Board.’ Title: ‘Events Galore for Eighty-eight,’ so this is a slightly dated one. ‘Where can you watch championship marbles, custard-pie throwing, world, world pillow sparring, a pub games festival, a bathtub race, town criers' championship and birdmen jumping off the pier for big prize money?’ Now, ‘Southeast this is for you. ‘Southeast ‘England, of course, and the southeast,’ and it goes on to give you the dates, the times, the places and contacts and so forth . They put in the hook. This could actually, and probably was, be lifted entirely and published in its present form in most local freebies, local newspapers and so forth. It was an article all ready for lifting. And I have to say that it was after we had done a course for them on really bad press releases , because we , they had done some pretty awful press releases in the past, and we were delighted when that one came out because it actually showed that they'd picked up the message. Right. So that, that ends the session. Any comments, questions, insults, I had a few of those. queries? okay We'll have a nice lunch. See you after lunch. For those of you who don't know where we're eating, it's in , it's in Hall, which is about a mile and a half When you get to the telescope, keep going. That Yes, he likes, he likes that idea very much. He thinks that's a good idea. Is anybody I think — I think most of you have decided to come back after lunch, thank you very much, Come back We appreciate that. And it's dedication beyond the normal call of duty, or bounds of duty, I think, to be honest, in this weather. Let's just outline what we're going to do this afternoon. You've done a lot of the work for us, I'm very appreciative to, of this, I'm glad to say you have, in terms of sussing out what makes a good press release, if only because you've found out what makes a bad press release. So Liz, in particular, and I'll join in a little bit, we'll sort of itemize some of the aspects, just to remind you and, and focus a little bit on this, and then we move into another mode where you get very creative and very constructive. You go off into your three groups again. We're setting you the following task. We're going to give you a, a situation handout, or a, a handout which describes a situation, and we're going to ask you to construct a short press release on the basis of that situation. So in a sense that's, that's your task. We're also going to ask you to create your own press release about something you'd like to create, in a sense. This will be very useful because it will provide material, later on in the course, for genuine situations as opposed to the slightly artificial ones we're actually handing out. So when you go into the groups, you're, you will have these two tasks, produce two press releases, one on the basis of a bit information given you, and the second on whatever you want to do, and you just, feel free to devise a, a situation, hopefully a real one, and describe it. Now it's important that we come up with some interesting things because, as you know, as the course goes on we're going to be joined by professionals from the media, in the form of Bob Satchwell later on this afternoon, and other gentlemen from the local radio and so forth tomorrow, and they're actually going to, as it were, confirm, or not, as the case may be, the sort of things we've been talking about. It is a high-risk venture as far as we're concerned And , and actually talk with you and maybe record material, we're not quite sure how they're going to play this, but, but, but tell you what they're interested in knowing about, in terms of your activities. So it's going to be more and more moving into the real area as opposed to our fantasies about what the world's like at this particular moment. So, let's hand over to you, Liz, and we'll focus on press Right. releases again. Three sort of fairly general Can you, can you see okay? Three fairly sort of general things on press release. Who are you writing for? Are you writing for your peer group, in which case you will clearly use a slightly different approach and slightly different language? Are you writing for the public? It's very easy to fall into well-used phrases and, and acronyms and bits of jargon. Do remember that the public may not have your abiding interest in environmental health. So, you have to think about who you're aiming it at. Jargon. Now, every trade and profession and, and radio and T.V. is the same as any other organization — we all have jargon. Try as far as possible not to use it, because it just confuses people. If you are talking to people you will talk in a quite different mode from that which you will adopt when you're writing. Ownership of information. That is quite important, particularly if you are going to attribute quotes to people. It's extremely unwise to quote your Chairman of Committee, if the Chairman of the committee actually A hasn't been informed that he's being quoted, or B has not actually agreed with what it is that you're quoting. You have to be quite clear in your own mind who you are aiming this at and how you are actually going to formulate it. And there are one or two fairly sort of good points that you can, that you can actually bear in mind when you're writing. And the first one is, press releases should actually grab the imagination of the person to whom it's addressed. We talked earlier about reading a press release through and saying, ‘So what?’ and dropping it in the bin. Now that press release clearly hasn't grabbed anybody's imagination. I get a lot of press releases related to tourism, and Leeds Castle in Kent frequently send me press releases, and I always, almost as a reflex action, find myself grabbing for my diary. Am I free on that day? Can I go to this thing about which they're sounding so enthusiastic? Do I want to go to this wonderful balloon festival? Do I want to go hunting Easter eggs? Do I because they write their press releases in such a way that it grabs you and says, ‘Hey! This is for you.’ Now, a lot of the things that you will be writing about will not be that dramatic that you can actually say, ‘Hey! This is for you.’ But it should say to editors and, and radio people, ‘Hey, this, this could be interesting for you, there's a story here.’ So that's, that's one of your first considerations. Brian spoke earlier about the hook. And the hook comes up again and again. Think of an angle and exploit it. And what will be an angle for, for one paper or one magazine or one programme won't necessarily be the angle for another one. Radio audiences expect to be entertained,possibly educated, but certainly kept on that radio band. They don't want to be what the presenters don't want is somebody to be pressing the button, hopping from channel to channel. And so you need to think of something which will actually keep people listening. Do you want to hear the next line? If it was not me speaking, would I want to listen to me? Would I actually want to read the next line, in terms of a press release? Who is your target audience? Now that is one of the very crucial things and one of the things that we frequently ask groups of people is, ‘Do you think that one press release is sufficient? Do you want one press release which may go to your institutional press as it were, the things which are specifically related to environmental health and nothing else? That would be a particular type of press release. Do you want it to go in the local free sheet? Do you want it to go to a radio station? Do you want it to hook a number of other people? Now that's obviously got to be a decision that you make. It may be you haven't got time, energy, effort,manpower to do more than one press release. But it's something which you really should bear in mind, because it could be the difference between you getting a press release and, and not getting it in. Style. We, we talk about house style. If you want to get an article into a particular magazine, you need to read that magazine, you need to see how they present certain articles, how they actually approach certain things, and then write what you want to write in the house style. Because again you'll have a much greater chance of getting it published. The way I got into national radio from local radio was listening to programmes and thinking, ‘I could interview X, and I could get it into that programme, if I could do it in that format.’ And what you do is you do it, and you get it wrong, and you, you miss it, and then you do it again and you're better the next time and you get in. So house style for both newspapers I mean Brian pointed to, out some to you this morning. Clearly you wouldn't write in the same way for the Sun as you would for the Times or the Financial Times or the Guardian, or the Cambridge local paper. So house style's important. You looked at some of those press releases this morning and time, place and date we touched on. Absolutely crucial. As I said to you then, I've had press releases which have actually had those crucial things missed out. Always read your press releases through very carefully, possibly get somebody else to read them through, because they will pick up the spelling mistakes, the grammatical mistakes, the punctuation errors, and they will see, when they get to the end, and say, ‘But you haven't told us when it is.’ And because you lived with it so long, you know when it is, and you forget that that's a critical piece of information that you need to pass on to somebody else. Deadlines. If you want to make enemies of editors, miss deadlines. Everybody has a deadline, whether it's a, a three month one for a quarterly magazine, a daily one for a newspaper, a, a monthly one. And the nature of the business is such that, that you're always up against a deadline. Find out the deadlines and make sure that you stick to them. If you don't, you will never see the light of day in print. We've spoken about double spacing and wide margins. That's basically for editing purposes, so that, if the editor, he likes the general tenor of what you've said but he perhaps wants to, he wants to chop a little bit out or he wants to put that sentence up there, he's got somewhere that he can actually, he can actually do his editing. Again, we said this morning, try and keep it to one page. Check all the spellings, and I told you the horror story about the gentleman whose name was wrongly spelt. Finally if you can, and don't feel too much of an idiot doing it, read it out aloud. Don't sit and just read it over your desk. Read it out aloud and if possible to somebody else. And we're back to this thing that if you're not interested in what you've written, why do you think anybody else ought to be? People never really about actually sitting and reading these things out loud. And it is a very good way to find out whether it's rubbish and whether you actually ought to start again. After a while, doing that once or twice, you'll get a real feel for it, and you'll then know how to write it and, and to get it right. But while you are still, if you like, feeling your way round a little bit, that is a very good exercise to undertake. And, again, notes to the editor, we've already dealt with. Now, those little reminders ought to give you a kind of mental map of how to go about writing your press releases this afternoon. You'll be given a fistful of them and the one that is set for you should be the first one that you do, but then the groups should pick something which is as far as possible relevant to what's actually going on in your profession at the moment. Because over the coming months I suspect that as a result of the E P A you are going to be called on more and more for information, for putting out press releases, for talking to people, for talking on the telephone,I mean, every single newspaper now seems to have an environmental reporter, and you're going to be, I suspect, right in the forefront of it. The day to get it not quite right, or even entirely wrong, is today. The day not to get it entirely wrong is when the guy's actually knocking at your door and say, ‘Speak to me.’ So — we would much rather that you went out on a limb, that you did something, that you listened to the remarks of your peers and possibly to the remarks that we might make about them, take them away and think about them. We're not actually saying, ‘This is right, and this is wrong.’ What we're saying is, that this is a very good way to approach writing press releases. And we hope that you will listen to the criticisms that each of you gives to each of the other groups, and when Bob Satchwell comes that he will have something very positive to say about relationships with the press. okay Would you kindly write your press releases on a sheet of this paper, if you can bear to do this,so that we can pin them up on the wall and we can walk around and see each other 's press releases and this'll be a good way of actually discussing them, I think. One point, just to add to what Liz is saying, and I support everything she's said, one further point is that accuracy is terribly important because if you actually have a mistake in the press release, and the editors publish it or it's broadcast and a whole lot of listeners or readers write in and complain, they'll find it very hard to forgive you because they get themselves in a terrible problem, so do be sure you're giving them accurate information all the time. It's a courtesy which is important. And the third thing I wanted to say is we've got one or two handouts for you which are on the front table at the moment, about various broadcasting situations and press releases, the three coloured bits of paper. At some point if you'd like to help yourself, it's a sort of,just a, just an aid to memory on some of the things we've been saying, please feel free to do so. So if you'd like to collect some paper, collect a script, are you going to hand them out, Liz, or Bob No, I Bob's going to give them a blind choice. What I've got there there are three scenarios, one from each group, so someone from Group A — Who's in Group B? Now Group C, there you are then, that's what's left. All right. And what time is tea, Bob? Three o'clock. Tea Right. Morning, ladies and gentlemen, welcome back. I trust you all enjoyed the meal last night and Duncan's stories. Anybody who's still trying to work out the story about the wreath and the river, there wasn't any point to it. It was put in there to make us all wonder what the hell he was talking about. That was the idea. Well, it, it worked. The part of the course I've enjoyed so far isn't the Face the Media stuff Thank you! Shall we leave, shall we leave now? It's not the local press, it wasn't the dinner, it was the dirty jokes session in the bar afterwards. There was a young lady from Thurry. Anyway, on with this morning. We're up to local radio and television today,if today is as good as yesterday was, I think you'll all enjoy it. Thank you very much. Well, this morning it's our great pleasure to welcome three visitors to the session, one of whom I'm not entirely sure is welcome because I understand that in fact he's in some way a slight opposition in that he runs his own training course. Is that right, John? Yes, well, yes. Would you, would you care to leave now? We've hidden all the handouts. John, John Venables, who is the science correspondents for Radio Cambridge, and as I say who also runs his own media training sessions; Julian Dunn , who is Senior News Reporter for Radio Cambridge, so I hope he's going to kneecap a few of you and make life fairly uncomfortable when he's doing some trial interviews, and Lloyd Addison, who's a freelance from Radio Norfolk. I was also given some other information about him, but for his sake I'll keep it quiet. It's very nice to have them with us. We're going to start with a shortish session, a shortish session this morning. One of the golden rules is, if you can't If you can't say it say it, don't even try to say it. Carry on. And then,we hope we're going to give you a laugh Just , you just carry on Will you kindly shut up? Don't feel embarrassed. Will you kindly shut up? You're amongst friends. The important rule, if it's live, keep going and the interviewer will help you keep going What about the Facilitate the, What about ‘the strengths of the system’? I've got that on tape, of you. We're going to, I hope, give you a laugh at our expense and really show you how quite a good interview can, can be totally ruined and, and sent down the pan. But first of all Brian's going to talk about some of the outlets and the sort of things that you could be looking for. Thank you very It's all yours and I'll interrupt, I'm Gentlemen, it occurs to us that you're going, we're going to be waffling on for half an hour plus, in a sense. Perhaps you'd like to sit down rather than sort of hover at the back, it's up to you entirely but you may feel that you're slightly uncomfortable. Please come and join the, the group and, and chip in if you felt free at all. Local radio. It's a high-risk enterprise for us to, to pontificate about local radio, particularly as we have three as it were local radio representatives here, and we shall give them ample opportunity to confirm or deny the sort of things we're saying. But what we would say to you, if you're actually thinking about going into this media, raising your profile a bit, becoming more pro-active, that local radio provides an admirable opportunity for developing your skills. What we said in the introductory session is a lot of this is to do with skills. It's acquiring expertise, and this comes through actually doing things, practising things, learning things, trying things out in a sense. And a very good way of doing that is obviously to find suitable outlets, and I would suggest that suitable outlets very often consist of local radio, which there is a thirst, on the whole, for good, appropriate items. I am going to take a risk and say what I think about local radio on the basis of my knowledge, personal knowledge, and these gentlemen can as it, as it were sort of say it's, it's not like that for them or whatever. Certainly the local radio in my experience is underfunded. The people on it are overworked and they are actually very keen to get material which comes to them readily, cheaply, and, and in an, in an easy form. They actually are welcoming good material in various senses, and in particular, they will welcome people who have a good story, a nice item, which they're prepared to come and record, either in the studio, or record on a Ewer somewhere on tape. So, in my experience certainly down in the Sussex area, there's, there's great opportunity for people who have something worthwhile saying, who understand how to repackage what they're saying in such a way that it will keep local radio audiences listening, and who are prepared to learn the minimum techniques and skills necessary to come across reasonably well. So local radio is a very good way of getting into it. You have national radio, of course, but in a sense there's less of it, in terms of hour times, and you have to be that much better to get on it, and the opportunities are not nearly as flagrant as on local radio. There's a sense in which the two are related, because sometimes national radio picks up stuff which is done on local radio, and certainly in the B B C network, local, B B C local radio makes a point of actually sending a certain amount of material on a regular basis to national radio, there is this link, and both in terms of personnel and in terms of material. There are other outlets, if you want to learn the media game, in terms of speech and view, as it were, hospital radio, I don't know whether you have any hospitals in your region but increasingly hospital radio offers an opportunity and a challenge, and welcomes people who would like to try their hand at becoming sort of D.J.s, or features editors, or are prepared to talk interestingly about subjects, and this you would only know from a local point of view. Certainly down in Sussex we have one or two people who, one or two places that have hospital radio, and welcome people who are prepared to have a go, in that sense, and that is an even more limited way of, but a legitimate way of, of learning the game as it were. T.V. is relatively difficult to get onto, in terms of you taking the initiatives, you contact the B B C or I T V and say, ‘I have a thing which you ought to have,’ and unless it's really outstanding, the chances are relatively small of getting on unless you are very lucky or you know somebody or you just hit the right spot at the right time. T V, on the whole, generates material for itself, and makes little forays out into your territory and picks up people. But again, if you, if you have a little skill and a little experience, you know how to put a story particularly with some visual appeal as opposed to just sound appeal, then there is, if you're in the right place at the right time you can get in. And, in a sense, we've, just to complete what we've been talking about so far, there's always the question of press and magazines and house style, just to remind you that you really need to study formats if you're going to try and as a freelance we talked about that yesterday. Let me just say one or two things about radio and see whether it makes sense to people, and in particular whether it makes sense to our colleagues from the local radio in this region. One of the things you'll find depressing about this course is, that you'll find yourself very concerned about how articulate you are. Most of us start sentences we can't finish. Most of us get muddled, most of us can't find the right word, most of us ‘um’ and ‘er’at various points as we're talking. The really the fundamental point and the bottom line, in terms of all broadcasting, is to be interesting. It helps if you're articulate, it helps if you can start a sentence and finish it, it helps if you've got a, an interesting voice and so on, but the bottom line is to be interesting. Because the bottom line so far as a broadcaster's concerned, or a studio's, a station's concerned, is to keep the listeners listening. Now I think this is a very interesting point because if you go home, and over the next few days do what most people do after course like this, and that is they listen perhaps a little bit to radio, certainly watch some T V and, and think about all these issues, one of the things that will surprise you is that some of the people who are prominent broadcasters are really rather incompetent. Insofar as they do ‘um’ and ‘er’, they scratch their ears, they start things they can't finish and so on and, make all these things. So why are they good, or at least, if they're not good, why are they paid so much to do what they're doing? Well, the answer is, because they can keep viewers viewing and listeners listening. You watch somebody like Wogan, I mean I, I'm not saying Wogan's good, but on the whole,in fact I don't think he is good He wants to get But on the whole, he has certainly historically, a pretty high rating in terms of viewers' viewing. It's going down now rapidly, but it, it originally that. And why in the hell did people watch Wogan? Well that's a very good question, I'm not sure I can answer it. But part of the reason is that a lot of the masses as it were, do actually like watching him bumbling around getting muddled up and so on and so forth . It's, it's because he can pull the audience in. And people on radio, some of the more inarticulate, the reason they're there is because research or folklore has it that people listen to what they're saying. And that is the bottom line. And that's an encouraging line because those of us, and I include myself who am not always articulate, who can't always get the, the words together to make a sentence and finish it, can try nevertheless to come up with something which is interesting, can contain the ‘Hey, this is for you,’ for the audience, along the lines we've been talking about yesterday. So if you feel discouraged, in that you don't think you can put two words together, or discouraged because you ‘um’ and ‘er’or anything else of that kind, just say to yourself, ‘I can perhaps overcome this, but what I can certainly overcome is being boring,’if you are. ‘And I can certainly think of ways in which I can talk about this in such a way that Mrs Jones doing her washing up, Mr Brown driving to work, E H Os idling time in their offices, listen to the radio, can actually listen and enjoy it.’ Sir, you wanted to say something, or were you just scratching your head? Are you suggesting that apart from this relief you've been set you might see Wogan tonight or something you could think You can't believe it's quite so bad, you mean, is that people off. If you could relate to somebody,in the lobby, escalator Yes probably more It's something to do with relating to it, but it's something to do with the, the final, the bottom line is that people watch. And although they like it or hate it, they watch, and that's what the, that's what T V wants. And the same is true for radio. It's very concerned with its ratings. On a local level it's quite hard to distinguish ratings, but there is a certain folklore and sometimes it's an information that comes out as to whether people to listen to things or don't listen to things. But fundamentally what succeeds is what keeps people listening or watching and so forth, and I'm suggesting that that's something to do, it, it's something to do with being interesting and relevant and catching the imagination of that particular audience group. And I'm putting this forward as something to encourage us all, because sometimes we can't be articulate, sometimes we can't look beautiful, most of the times you can't look beautiful, but we can all think of ways of creating an interesting story. Yesterday we were talking a lot about angles, about ‘Hey, this is for you,’ about hooking people in. I'm sure you'll hear more about this today. So I just put this forward as something to, perhaps to, to interest you. Now, the other thing that I mentioned yesterday, or we mentioned yesterday, was that local radio is opportunity for practice in various ways, and most local radio in most forms, and we will have to know what the local knowledge is here, do welcome people who are sufficiently interested to contribute stories, information, angles for their programmes. They're underpaid, overworked, underappreciated, and they're looking for material, particularly from people who understand the sort of material that, that works on local radio. So there are opportunities, and it's worthwhile building up contacts. Something which is important to say is that the first time you have a contact with somebody and you do a piece, you're, you're meeting for the first time, it's slightly awkward and you're getting to know each other slightly, the second time you do it easier, it's easier, and if you establish relationships with the local press, local radio and so forth, it gets easier and easier all the time, because by the time you get to know people, it's not sort of ‘Can I speak to somebody who does a programme about the morning whatever it is? You don't know me, my name is Jimmy Cricket, I think I have a story which will, you will find desperately interesting, would you like to come and interview me?’ ‘Oh, yes, yes, yes, tell me more.’ It's that sort of silly type of conversation. If you've done it and it works, the next time you do it is ‘Hi, Joe. Do you remember we did a bit about noise last year? I've got another piece which I think you'd like, it's all to do with food poisoning, which is rampant in Cambridge,I think you'd like to know how many people are dying each week. Are you interested?’ ‘Oh, yes, come on in, we'll fit that in, would you like to come into the morning programme or, I'll come out with a Ewer and we'll do a bit and we'll slot it in. This sounds like a news item whatever it is.’ My point is, I'm being silly, facetious, my point is, the more you have contacts with people, the more they understand that you understand what the thing is all about and are likely to deliver the goods in a way that is useful, the easier it is. You have a track record and you build up this understanding and you acquire the skills, and it gets easier and easier. And moreover, they'll come back to you. People work, people in the media, work on a range of contacts, it's the easiest thing to do. If something comes up — there's an earthquake in Peterborough. ‘Right. We've got to do a bit on an earthquake. Who the hell do we know anything about earthquakes? I know. Robert Bloggins, he did a piece on the, on the last earthquake when it was in Ely, let's go out and see him. He, he was good value.’ So out you go You know people initially work using networks, and then if they don't have somebody that corresponds to something which they've got to do then they perhaps will phone the university or the poly and say, ‘Have you got anyone that knows anything about jam fritters or whatever it is, we want to do a piece because it's current,’ and somebody's unearthed in that particular way. But it's really worth developing contacts in that particular way. Now, two further points and then we'll move into a slightly different mode. One is that twenty years ago, one would have predicted that local radio and radio in general would be dead by now. We'd have thought we'd nobody'd ever listen to radio. But in fact it would all be T V and the Sun and the Mirror, and nothing else would be around very much. In fact radio is alive, kicking and expanding, and there are thousands of hours of radio going out, locally particularly, and every indication there are going to be more and more community radio stations in the future, and this is hungry time for material, so lots of opportunities in that particular way, at this stage. So that underlines the point I was making, or belabouring, that there is a lot of opportunity on local radio. Now, the final point I want to make in this little section, and I think Liz is going to help me make this point, and that is that one of your problems, which is not a big problem compared with some organizations, is you've got to take what you're doing, and repackage it in such way that it is of interest to ordinary people. And I'm thinking now in terms of local radio. You've got to think ‘What do I want to say? What is it I can say? And how can I say it in such a way that it is of interest to the people that are likely to listen to it?’ You're very fortunate, as I pointed out to a group yesterday. We did a course with the Daresbury Nuclear Laboratory, whose prime interest is running a syncrotron radiation source. Now tell that to the general public. And syncrotron sounds terribly technical, radiation is hazardous, and source comes out of the bottle and you put it on fish and chips. So how do you actually get across to the public something about this which makes the public love them? And appreciate them and feel they're worthwhile? That's a very difficult issue, and when we started working with this particular group of people they said, ‘We can't do it. This is a complicated, scientific bit of equipment, and really you need to have a P H D in physics to have any appreciation what a syncrotron radiation source is.’ And our comment to them at that particular stage was, ‘Well, if that's the case that's the case. But don't be surprised if people think that you're esoteric, people think that you're not doing anything worthwhile, people think that you're, are rather scared of what you're doing there, and people won't support you locally or politically in what you're doing. And moreover don't you feel you have a responsibility to explain to ordinary people, particularly in your area, what it is you're doing and why it's important and why you should go on doing it?’ And after a certain amount of discussion they accepted that point, and we had some very interesting sessions in which they learnt to say things like, ‘Well the syncrotron is a bit like a racetrack for very small particles which exist in atoms. And as the particles go round and round this racetrack, it's a bit like a car with its headlights going on, and as it goes faster and faster the car headlights more or less catch up with each other, you see what I'm saying. And it's a bit like that, and what happens,’ and they go, went on and explained what happened and why it was interesting, and in particular why, by doing this, you could come up with an X-ray source which can help cure cancer, and can do scans in a way which you can't do by other methods. And suddenly they found themselves talking the sort of language that all of us can understand, and they got quite excited about this. It didn't stop them getting into very severe financial difficulties, and you may have read about this in recent times, it, there's a proposal that the Science and Engineering Research Council may be so short of funds it may close the laboratory down. But in a sense, they will stand a better chance of staying open and being appreciated and supported by the public, if in fact they're going to devote a modicum of their time to explaining to the popular, population as a whole, what they're doing, why it's important and why they should carry on doing it. Now if I could try and translate that into your particular sphere of interest, you are doing things with noise, with food, with roofs I heard the other day, yesterday, which surprised me, and a variety of other things, which people understand. They might not understand what you're doing and why you're doing it, necessarily, they won't understand the regulations and the rules and all, and all the details, but they understand, this is, this is what their lives composed of, consists of. So they potentially can be very interested in this. So you, what you've got to do, is to think of ways in which you can translate the technicalities into simple language that other, that ordinary people can understand and appreciate what it is you're doing and why it's important. And you must discover ways in which you can link this to ordinary people's concerns. And if you can do that, then you very much become media-worthy. It's a sort of ‘Hey, this is for you, Mrs Jones.’ You may think that noise just has something to do with an airport at Stanstead, but it isn't. It's to do with your everyday life, and it's to do with this, and that, and the other, and translate that into other things. Are you concerned, when you go to a restaurant, you might get food poisoning? Is there a real problems about eggs, and some of that salmonella? What about listeria What about food in supermarkets? What are the rules, what are the regulations? Who's doing what about it? Is it our responsibility, is there any law? What happens if things go wrong? Should we report things if things go wrong? How can we cope? You know, all these things which — I'm displaying my ignorance because some of these come into your area, some of these don't quite, but these are very much the concerns of ordinary people. And if you can express what you're doing in a way which catches their imagination, you've got marvellous media material. Yes, but there are dangers in that. You have to know who your audience is. And the guy that we all know, called Dr Richard Bately , is that his name? Yes, you all laugh — who, all right, he makes — some of the things he says are valid, but because he's watered his message down, if you, well ‘watered down’ is the wrong, popularized his message to make a political point, at the same time he's alienated other people who he needs to rely on in this scientific community to help him go, go forward. Two comments in response to that. One is that people think that watering down is the same as popularization. I think explaining things to people in lay terms is an incredibly difficult thing to do, highly skilled thing to do, and should not be diminished or sneered at. I think it's much, much harder than talking in technical terms to, to peer group and colleagues. So I think the people who say, ‘Oh, he's gone down the Swanee, he's talking pop, or he's writing children's books, or he's waving his hands on television,’ balderdash as far as they're concerned, I think they're, they're just being very stupid. I think there's a desperate need for people to actually be prepared to learn the skills and to do the very, very difficult work of doing that. And the second point I make is that if there are fools who are doing it wrongly then some of you ought to be doing it correctly. I mean there ought to be many more people on the right side, as it were, rather than the wrong side. If there's a vacuum, then there'll be a few charlatans, a few fools, a few incompetents who will fill that vacuum, because there is a need for people to, to be instant experts on everything. The media need them. But if there are a lot of sensible people who are skilful and well-respected professionally, who are not grinding axes but are in the game of explanation and, and entertainment and information-sharing, then these, these fools and these charlatans won't, won't exist Yes but Or they could be put down by other people. just going to sit back and, and watch Lacey and, and sneer That's right. at some of the things he says, and you agree with other things he says, but when there's nobody else who's is trying to get a message over to the general public. Well maybe some of you should Absolutely. But what do you do not if they Absolutely. That's right. Absolutely. That's have some more people from here who are prepared to go it locally and essentially say, ‘I'm ’ and prove it, by their record, that ‘I can talk sensibly about these, these matters’. Sensibly, but in a, in a context of actually keeping people listening. Entertainingly, interestingly, etcetera, etcetera, all along the lines we've been talking. So don't let's moan about, I mean thank you for your point, I'm not putting you down, but let, let's sort of get up there and, and go for it if we, if we feel we can contribute. It's very interesting that, that you, you mention that, as most people don't yet got their copy of the date Yellow Pages, it was an away from home and I, I wasn't, and it was in fact in today's Yellow Pages an article by David Mason on Richard Lacey's new book which he's,seems to be selling at twelve ninety-nine a copy,which, which he says makes hardly any mention of the A B Os, and there's a comment here from Linda Allen, Undersecretary and basically it's all very negative, we don't like this and we don't like that. But it simply underlines how ineffective we've been in, in counteracting what, what he's been saying when we, when we think it's absolute rubbish. Well as long as you continue to talk about particulate depositions, when you mean smuts on Mrs Brown's last clean white shirt, nobody's going to understand a great deal of what you're talking about. And I've actually heard an E H O talking about problems of, of smuts coming out of chimneys and talking about, you know, there was a very heavy particulate deposition, and we said, ‘What the hell's he talking about?’ And if you say to Mrs Smith, ‘A lot of smut's coming out of that chimney and we're going to do something about it, fitting retroscrubbers or whatever, you know, the answer is,’ then you will understand what you're on about. Mind you, we're very lucky, we have a great expert with us this morning. Yes, shall we do our interview? Yes, I think so. Coming We Coming into Radio Girton, I think it was Radio, Radio Girton. Radio Girton. Yes, Radio Girton. Well, ladies and gentlemen, I'm very pleased to be able to tell you that with me this morning is Dr Brian Smith who is Managing Director of Smith Acoustiphonics International. Now we all know that the problem of noise is something which is going to be very high on your agenda in the coming weeks. Now, I haven't met this gentleman, but I'm told that he is a great expert on the question of sound and the nature of sound and, and the problems by it, and I've invited him into the studio and I'm going to interview him. So just sit back and wait while I disappear into the studio. Well, good morning,Dr Smith, very nice to Good morning, Mrs Felcombe. I understand you're the Managing Director of Smith Acoustiphonics International. Well, I'm not actually the Managing Director. I will be next week, but up to now I've been the Deputy Managing Director. The Managing Director is actually leaving, he's going to another company, but I don't suppose you want to know that. Not a lot, no. Well, now,can you tell us something about the nature of noise? It's going to be very important to Environmental Health Officers in the coming weeks, and I know you are a specialist in noise. What actually is the nature of noise and how do we measure it? Yes you would like me to talk about noise. Yes I would. Right. Successions of acoustical pressure fluctuations give rise to auditory stimulation, and these can be measured by a pressure sensitive transducer displaying the resultant amplified electrical impulses by analogue or digital means. The former measurement is in terms of a value equal to twenty times the logarithm to the base ten of the ratio of the root-means square pressure of a sound to the reference pressure, which is normally taken to be two times ten to the minus five newtons per square metre, and the unit of measurement is on a uniform scale based upon ten times the logarithm to the base ten But of the ratio But of sound intensities being compared. Thus the scale of a logarithmic rather than linear nature, and human What auditory response — just a moment, I, let me finish — is non-uniform over the span of the frequency spectrum to which it is sensitive. Response is dependent on the amplitude and the wave-length of the acoustical Excuse me. pressure Excuse me. Yes? I'm not entirely sure that my listeners will understand what you're talking about. Well, as I was explaining, we've built into our amplifier the pressure-sensitive transducer of pressure-sensitive attenuating network, which is the inverse of an equal loudness curve, the resultant readings being denoted by D B As, that's decibels of the A kind. Excuse me, is that, is that all about noise? In a nutshell, yes. How many of you would have actually switched off by now? Yes — oh, gosh, the rest of you are very good — anyone explanation. Well, I mean, obviously we've, we've played that totally for laughs. But You feel you had to explain that, do you? Well, you and I, you and I, have both come across people, not quite as bad as that. But Brian actually did interview one person, for forty-five minutes? This was on, this was on tape, it wasn't a live thing. I actually asked one question and he spoke for forty minutes without stopping. I started by looking at him. I then did this. I then got up and went out and had a cup of coffee and came back, he was still talking. In fact I broadcast that material, but I cut it into three programmes, and I, I cut in the questions I would have asked if he'd actually given me a chance to ask them. It went down quite well. But this is what we're saying about, I mean, that's the sound equivalent of, of particulate depositions if you like. But on the other hand people are interested in the nature of noise, people are interested in neighbour noise,aeroplane noise, motorcycle noise,and so it is possible that, that some of you will, will be interviewed on that kind of thing. And what we've now done is put together a similar type of interview, but which is, as we said yesterday, a bat and ball situation, where I ask a question, he answers it, leaving the next question hanging if you like We hope. that's the best type, we hope so. It depends Shut up. It depends how much information you give. If you absolutely insist in giving all your information in the first answer, there's no room for a further question, and the best kind of response is the one that leaves the next question sort of hanging on the end of it, so that the interviewer can come back with another question. Let us see how the Managing Director of Smith Acoustiphonics International copes with this. Good morning, Dr Smith. Very nice to have you in the studio. Good morning, Liz. Now, I understand that you are a very senior member of an international company, what actually is your position in the company? Well, I'm, I'm now Managing Director of a group called Smith Sound Level Meters Ltd and we make the sort of meters that measure noise. How is noise actually measured? You, you, we're, I presume we're talking about the sounds that can be heard by our ears, by Yes. in normal life. These are, these sounds are measured on an instrument called a sound level meter. How, how do these meters work? Is it something that I would be walking about with, or? Well, you could do, if, particularly if you had one of our meters, but what, what happens, as sound goes through the air it causes small pressure fluctuations, and our meter measures the size of these, and it gives a reading on a scale in units which we call decibels. What actually is a decibel scale? Well, it, that's a rather complicated question to answer, it's all to do with physics and so on, but I'll, I'll have a go at it, if you like. The most important feature is that so far as human hearing's concerned, each increase of ten decibels, the loudness of the sound doubles. So, the meter response to pressure change is just like a human ear? More or less, yes, except that, because the human ear responds to different frequencies, or pictures of sound, with different sensitivities, the sound meter has to be adapted so it responds in the same way. In other words the meter tries to reproduce the sort of listening qualities that a human ear would. Could I just say that readings taken in this adapted way are called decibels A-weighted, which is a bit sort of technical and silly, but it's kind of important if you're measuring the sort of sound that people listen to. We call it, sorry, it's D B A for short. How many, how many decibels would a loud noise be? Well, it depends on what circumstances and what situation you're in. A mosquito probably registers about ten or twenty decibels, and this could be very annoying if you were trying to sleep and one was buzzing around you, but in our trade we're normally talking about a level of perhaps sixty or seventy decibels which is tolerable and the sort of noise perhaps we're making at the moment. Ninety to a hundred decibels gets pretty uncomfortable, and a noisy factory can go up to about a hundred and twenty decibels and Environmental Health Officers for example are very concerned about this because it causes long-term problems in people's ears. Hundred and thirty to a hundred and forty's the limit of physical pain, you really would scream if you were getting a noise input at that level. So that's why it's important for people to wear noise muffs, Absolutely. and ear-muffs in a noisy If they want to, if they want to keep their hearing into ripe old age, they've really got to watch the level. So noise is very important. It's important for most people in most circumstances, but the level at which it's important does depend very much on the circumstances. But roughly speaking, I,a figure worth remembering is that ninety decibels and above can cause permanent damage and under all circumstances situations above this level should be avoided. So young people using Sony Walkmans, going to discos once, twice a week and then going into a noisy job could permanently impair their, their hearing. They're being incredibly silly, they really ought not to do that, because it can impair their hearing for life. Well, thank you very much for explaining this to us, Dr Smith. You're very welcome, Liz. Not riveting stuff, but at least understandable to you know, the man on the Clapham omnibus, and it probably tells him enough to say to his, his child, you know, for heaven's sake take that Sony Walkman off. But I understand, and somebody here will no doubt correct me, that there is research to show that if you do actually walk about with a Sony Walkman, go to noisy discos, and then go into a noisy working environment, that by the age of thirty you can lose up to a third of your hearing. And that, and that Is that, is that, that is correct, isn't it? Now, I understand that. And that would give the local radio interviewer a very good in, because it would be much better to start with some comment along that lines which would It's unlikely that they will trap you and use your bad reply. It's always possible, but it's unlikely. Or you can simply sabotage the thing by coughing loudly and exploding all over the place and then of course they simply can't use it. Or you can do what I have just said, which is, say ‘I, I've made a mistake there, I think I'll do it again, what I want to say is this.’ Now there's a nice little space there. It can be taken out, the rubbish can be taken out, but there is enough space for it, to, to make it sound conversational. So do bear those things in mind, because part of today and yesterday has been saying to you, how you can present yourselves to radio and T V in such a way that you're not only experts in your specific subjects, but you are sufficiently expert in the techniques that go to make up good radio, that people will say, ‘Let's have so-and-so back again. They're good value for money, they understand their subject, but most of all they don't give me any grief.’ We said yesterday, journalists are frequently very pushed for time, some of them are lazy, and the more help you give them, and the same is true for radio, the better. If I'm interviewing you at half past twelve for a piece for the one o'clock news, I don't want to have to take out reams and reams and reams of tape. And tape goes past the head at about seven and a half inches a second. You work out how much tape I'm going to have to take out, if I've only got to edit a minute out of what you're saying. And the other difficulty is that if you're, if you're talking on a controversial subject, and you give three minutes and they only want one minute, they might actually choose the one minute you don't want actually used. Absolutely. So,if they have some idea of time scale and say, ‘How much are you looking for? What is this for? Is it live recorded? How much are you looking for.’ You should not let radio happen to you, you shouldn't let any of the media happen to you. You should always ask the questions, and that is another way that people will understand that you know what goes on the other side of the microphone. And we can't emphasise enough how important that is. Now. It's quarter past ten, at half past ten there's coffee, so you've got a lifeline to cling on to, and then at half past, after coffee we shall be doing some other things with, with our friends who have joined and who are real local radio people. Now, what I, going to suggest we do, in the fifteen minutes which remains are two things. One is that I'm going to give John and Julian and Lloyd an opportunity to say anything that they are burning to say on the basis of hearing us waffle for an hour or so, anything they wish to chip in. And then I think I want to ask you people the question, ‘What is it that you do which is potentially interesting to the world?’ okay? So let's start with the first thing. There's also one thing that we need, which is the written questions for T V okay We'll do that So John,Julian, Lloyd, anything you want to chip in from your professional viewpoint? Are you going to come up and join us? You three take the middle , we'll take the outside ones. See how you can speak now Yes. Three, three extremely dumb monkeys. First of all, did you, as individuals, volunteer to come here and spend your time here, or were you sent? No, You all volunteered. So that when we get to the mock interview stage, no, no one can actually back out, no one can pretend that they were just sent by their council. So you all positively want to have the chance to be interviewed on radio and to put over what you think is important. Not necessarily. You're, you, so you're perhaps here just to find out what trouble you could get into if you ever did agree to do an interview? Yes, that's, that's, that's a fair point of view. Because very often on courses we find that people have been sort of nominated to go on courses, and quite honestly they don't actually want to be there and they're looking at their watch and as soon as they can get away that, that's better. So it's nice to know whether people are volunteers or, or conscripts. The only thing I'd say, I, I would have expected perhaps I missed out on, on yesterday's course, but I would perhaps have expected more emphasis to have been given to something that you mentioned, right at the end, was ‘Find out how long the interview's going to be’. Because this to me is really one of the key subjects that can lead to either the success or failure of an interview. Very often, I have gone to interview somebody, having told them I want a two and a half minute interview, and I want to cover roughly the following five topics. Despite having told them that, it's obviously gone in one ear and out the other ear. Their first answer has lasted two and a half minutes. So what do I do? Do I just switch off the tape recorder and go back and say, ‘Here's a two and a half minute speech’? Do I ignore the other four points that I wanted to make? And what about the points that they wanted to make? So to me the most point thing if you're an interviewee is to find out the duration of the interview. How much air time is it going to get? Because if you're told that it's going to get a maximum of three minutes air time, and if the interviewer wants to ask five questions, you think there are five topics that you would like to get in, to make five points, then do a bit of mathematics, and work out how long you think each answer should be. That is the main failing of interviewees. They have no concept of time. That, that's, just to point out that We did cover some of it. We did cover that yesterday because obviously it's an absolutely crucial point, and when we do a one-day course, we actually make people do one minute against the clock. That's right. Because your one minute will be different from That's right. his one minute That's right. will be different from your one minute. And it's a thing, I mean, certainly with the news interviews I did yesterday we emphasized to people, What do you know about the length of the news interview, and the news interview is perhaps ten minutes with five, six stories. What does that tell you? Do simple arithmetic. And so yes, it's something we emphasize very, very strongly. I think, I think more and more we're going for two, two things. One is the news byte, which can be anything between fifteen and thirty seconds, and that is basically asking you to give a comment on one particular aspect of a story. I looked up there, here's one from your Food Facts press release. The Council is obviously terribly happy that it's got this new service running from nine a.m. to five p.m. Monday to Friday. What do you think my first question would be? What happens outside those hours? Right! Just at the time when people need advice, what's happened, the Council have closed it down. That would be my question to you on that one. One answer. And you know you mentioned sort of ten minute interviews. I think really, in terms of news programmes now on, on local radio, we're, we're looking at two minutes. We're looking at two, two and a half minutes. No, I'm saying ten minutes as a total news slot, in which there would be Oh, yes. Five or six Yes. Stories, do Yes. some simple Yes. arithmetic. Yes. And you've five of them. As far as an interview's concerned, two, two and a half Absolutely. minutes is probably the maximum. All right, so you're saying then that the person that you're interviewing could be doing, take a stopwatch with them, just to thirty seconds answers. No. I think that's the sort of thing you've got to do beforehand. You've got to get your mental clock going. No, I'm not suggesting you come and sit with a stopwatch, because I think that would distract you. But what I do suggest is, a useful experiment is to pick a subject, start a stopwatch, talk for what you think is thirty seconds, stop the stopwatch and then see. See how far out you are. I mean, for me personally I think there's actually a decision that if I can't get over the full unbiased impression that I want to make about the whole story, I've got to make a decision whether I'm going to talk to you at all. Now, what do you mean by full unbiased impression about the whole story? Now that's a bit waffly, isn't it? That, that could have been, that could have been cut down. If you can't make your point in thirty seconds, then you shouldn't make the point at all. Yes. Right. So now you're saying, if you can't make so we've, we've changed from the full unbiased overall story to the point. Touché. So, we're getting there. Yes. You've got a point to make. What is the most important point you want to make? I'll give you one story that you may not think could have been cut down, but, the headline read, ‘War Declared’. Pretty good editing job. Got over the story, didn't it? ‘War Declared’. That was, that, but it got over the main point of the story. Now if you can get over the main point of that story in two words, I'm sure you can get over the main point of any of those stories in thirty seconds. I think that's far too long. It should be War exclamation mark. That was, that was the version for the Sun readers. I think in a two-minute interview what you can expect is no more than two or three questions, possibly four. mhm And also the number of points that you want to make, particularly if you're doing a pro-active interview, should be limited to only two or three main points. And the answer to the questioner isn't, isn't an arcane as you might think it is. Basically the journalist has a fairly simple rule of thumb. They want to find out as much as possible about the issues in a short time. And I think it was Kipling who said he had six serving maids Who, What, Where, Why, When and How. And if you ask those questions of any issue you establish pretty quickly every interesting aspect of the story. Now obviously there isn't time for six questions, so the journalist will distil it down. But there are basic things that the journalist will want to know about a story that you can work out in advance. If you had a health scare in your area, they'll want to know how severe it was, who it affected, and what you're doing about it. That's basically it. So you can work out in advance the question there is, and try and condense down, prepare your answers mentally, prepare for those question areas, and condense down your arguments to the point where you can put them across succinctly. When it comes to thinking about the questions before, another — the time between you agree to do the interview and actually doing it, is your preparation time. It's not something just to be pushed to one side, and, ‘Oh, yes, he's coming at eleven o'clock, so I'll think about it at five to eleven.’ I would advise you also to think of ‘What is the worst possible question I could be asked about this?’ What is the most embarrassing question? What would really put me on the spot, and how will I cope with it? Because the chances are that because you know more about the subject than the general reporter, to whom — this may be to you the most important part of the day,most important story of your day, to him it might be only one of four, five or six that they're doing. If you prepare an answer that you're confident about to the worst possible question, the chances are they won't even answer it,ask it, and you'll feel much better. Because you know more about the story than they do. But if, by any chance, the reporter's wife or husband also happens to be an Environmental Health Officer somewhere else, and happens to know that he or she is going off to do an interview, and say, ‘Hey. That Council are bloody useless on this. Why don't you ask them so and so?’ ‘Why have they cut that money?’ If you can have an answer to that, so that if you do get zapped with the worst possible question, you have a confident answer to it, then all the other questions will be plain sailing. It's our job anyway. Hm. That's our job, so you have to appreciate that that's the job of a journalist, to enquire what is the, the worst and the best aspects of any, of any job, of any, of any interview,and so you really have to do it, and in the sense that you have to if you, you probably have to go back to square one and do maximum research on what you're being asked about, so, therefore you have more confidence in precising down what your answer is. I find that the, the people who waffle the most are the people who know least. Talking of waffling, if I could just shift ground slightly to another issue, it's been touched on already, and that is of jargon. It's very easy, we all use jargon, we use jargon in the newsroom, if you ever heard a conversation at Radio Cambridgeshire you wouldn't understand a word of it. I'm not sure we do half the time. But different technologies, different areas of interest, develop their own language. Do bear in mind that what is common currency in your department will mean nothing to anybody else. And I'd go further than that. I'd distinguish between different sorts of jargon. There's word jargon, as we had an example of, with the, the noise expert, where you actually use words that people don't understand. But there's also conceptual jargon, where you might go halfway to addressing the issue, but a very complicated concept, with various complications to the argument that you're trying to put across. It's no good just using simple words to describe each step in that argument, if the whole argument gets so convoluted by the time you finish the listener thought, ‘Well, I understood the bits, but I didn't understand the whole.’ And then finally, there's also a temptation if, as we are on the B B C part of a large corporation, and, and you are as well,your various councils, there is a temptation to get into procedural jargon. That's where if, say the journalist say, ‘Well, what are you doing about this problem?’ If you say, ‘Well, of course, yes, I can easily explain that, but basically we'll transfer the the, the handling of the enquiry to A Department, which of course has responsibility to B, but B can't do that without C,’ you have to know in your own organization that that's the way the procedure works, but it will mean nothing to the listener. So keep things simple, and keep things brief, and keep them to the point. John, talking about jargon, on this story, can you do me a package for New Day, we'll have a head-to-head for drive time,voicer for C A T O, and don't forget the copy cover. okay You always were demanding. But I mean basically, that means that for the, tomorrow morning's breakfast programme, I want a package including lots of different views, but for drive time which is five till six in the evening, I just want a straightforward, two minute head-to-head, one-to-one interview but for lunchtime which is C A T O, which is Cambridgeshire at One, which is our lunchtime programme,I'd like you to put all the views into a script of about forty seconds, and don't forget, for the two o'clock bulletin, which is a very short one, I'd just like three sentences of copy which sums up the story. Do you want me to rot it and pump down G N S to W A T O? Yes. He's going to rot it, which means he's going to record it off transmission, and then pump it down, send it down to the General News Service in London for consideration by W A T O which is World At One. So, we've got We just have all sorts of jargon We've got just as much jargon as you have. It's rubbish, isn't it? Outside its context of the newsroom it's rubbish. So it's the same, your jargon is rubbish outside the Yellow Pages? That's a good bit of jargon, isn't it? You know. Yellow Pages means nothing. But unfortunately, when I did an interview with you, it is possible that you might actually refer to an article in the Yellow Pages. No, no. Or perhaps not. But those, those Environmental Health Officers who go into committee, and we know very well that you have to put your argument in a particular way or put your point a particular way, in which you want to convince people. But the, I ring up local government offices, and that's the way they would speak to me, and immediately I say to myself, ‘Christ, that would be the worst person to be interviewed on local radio.’ Because, what you're going back to, just reemphasizing the point earlier, you're speaking one-to-one, you're not trying to convince a, a group of, of , of councillors, you're trying to actually convey a message and, yes, you're trying to convince, but you're actually trying to convey a message doing one-to-one interview, across to people who know nothing about it, whereas councillors purport to know something about it. Imagine that you have just come home from your hard day being an Environmental Health Officer, and your neighbour, who happens to be a builder or bookmaker or something, invites you down to the pub, and over a pint he says, ‘I heard something on the radio about some story. What's it about? Well, how is it? You know, is it serious?’ Those are the sort of questions that the radio interviewer is asking you on behalf of the, the great British public. And your answers should be couched in the terms that you would answer somebody in the pub, in that you're giving them the information, you're giving it to them in a clean way. All the crap of jargon, all the crap of councilspeak, has been cleared away. And without deviating from truth or accuracy, you are telling it the way — and it is possible to do it, without deviating from truth and accuracy — because most of the trappings of the crap are ones that we impose upon ourselves. It's our jargon that we use in the newsroom, it's your jargon that you use, it's your way of getting things through council committees. Well, you don't need all that, if you're talking to the public, you're telling what are basically the facts, and, if asked for your opinion on them, you then decide whether to give your opinion or to say, ‘Well, no, that's beyond, that's beyond my brief.’ Never be afraid to say, ‘No’. One of the tricks that happens, and it can happen, it's not really done deliberately, but it's, the reporter wanting to know how you feel about something. So you've done an interview and the question is, ‘Well, yes but, what do you feel about this, this food outbreak? How do you feel?’ Perhaps you'd better be a bit careful. ‘Am I there to speak on behalf of the council? Am I there to speak on behalf of me? Am I being interviewed as this council's Environmental Health Officer, or am I being interviewed as a representative of the institution of Environmental Health Officers?’ Your answer may be different. Find out the context. The point I made to half, and now I'll make it again to the whole, yesterday, was that it's very important to, to define your roles in a particular thing. ‘Well, speaking personally, I think it's so and so, but I'm not, obviously, speaking on behalf of the Council.’ Now, I don't, the story I quoted was I, I interviewed Lord Marshall on the local radio thing many years ago, and I asked him about nuclear fusion. Is it going to happen? And he said, ‘Well, the Government policy is it's worth putting money in. The Atomic Energy policy is it's going to take about fifty years. My personal view is, they're being optimistic and I'm not sure it will ever happen.’ And in a sense, he actually very neatly defined several different points without getting his knickers in a twist, and wearing different hats it would be so easy to come out with a muddled thing which would end up by being him feeling uncomfortable but him also being part of the Government and the Atomic Energy Authority. If these are totally incompatible he may have to resign of course, but then It's a good way of doing it, just saying, ‘Well, my personal view is of course this is a tragedy. The Council I hope will do something about it, but that's up to the Council, I don't have the authority to do that.’ That, that's, that's an understandable But if you prevaricate and say, ‘I can't comment on this because I'm an officer of the Council,’ then they think, ‘Oh, God, you know, what sort of person am I talking to?’and you lose all your empathy and all the sympathy of the listeners, which is what you're after. Provided you didn't get away with, you, you know your first example's okay, but your second example where you said, ‘Well, I hope the Council some good , I haven't the authority,’ that's not such a good example, because, to the listener No, in, in a you are the Council. Yes. If it were pre-recorded I thought the example was good about the, the guy coming out It's happened to me, I'm not recording most of the programme Yes. Yes. What's it about? It, it was a quite loony lot , but it highlighted to me that, when I speak on radio, I'm representing not only the Council, the institute and the profession and all that, I never actually am representing me, and that's the, that's When, when you're speaking on radio, are you, are you representing all those organizations at the same time? If you're, if you're, if you're a Council employee, and you're being interviewed in your role as a Council employee, then surely you're only representing the Council. Well, the thing, to me environmental health, and I, and I'm from the Environmental Health Services, mhm clearly all those things are involved. No, no, I wouldn't, I wouldn't, I wouldn't agree there, because, because the institution may well have policy which is at variance with your council's policy. I'm sure there must be things that your institution would like your council to be doing but which your council isn't doing. So I would venture to suggest that if I'm interviewing you as the Environmental Health Officer for a particular council on a council matter, then I would expect you to only speak on behalf of the council — unless I asked you whether your professional body was happy with your council's policy. If I was interviewing you as an, as a member of the institution as a, a local spokesman Can I interrupt there? Yes. That wasn't really the issue I was making. The issue, the point I'm trying to make is that in talking for all of the bodies, whether I'm talking about for the council or whether I'm talking about them at the same time or separately, one thing I'm not doing is talking from my point of view. Yes. That's what came through in that example So if you were asked, if you were asked, ‘What is your point of view?’ what would you say? Sometimes my views are at variance with the institution Yes. Many times! okay, okay So supposing, supposing I did an interview with you, the, the idea about the pub talk is I'm trying to get you to use the language as if you were talking to a mate. okay So what if you ask you in an interview, ‘How do you feel about this personally?’ What would you say? Obviously it would depend on the issue, I mean, I'm, I'm trying to sort of help here. Yes, yes. Well, no I'm trying to help you because bear in mind that if you are interviewed, that is a possible question. So you really ought to give it some thought. How would I respond? How can I forecast how I'd respond, if there's no indication what the subject matter is? It's difficult Well, you could, no you can ask yourself, you can ask yourself, because you've said to me very clearly that you do not regard yourself as ever speaking for yourself, surely you can now think, would I ever want to answer a question like that? Never mind what the issue is. I mean for, for example, that, let me give an, I mean you can, you can compromise your decision on radio. I mean, you can say for example that the Government didn't bring in registration,licensing of food premises, only brought in a register. Now you may not agree with that,but nevertheless I will say, ‘Do you think it's a good thing?’ and you can say, ‘Well, it's a step in the right direction, I'm encouraged by it.’ Do you know what I mean? You, you, you, you or you can say something else. To, to, to my friend who'd bought me a, you know, a pint of beer I would have said, ‘We wanted, I wanted, not only annual licensing but also linked to training and food handling, otherwise it doesn't mean anything.’ Well, why on the radio interview? Why can't you say it in an interview then, if you're asked that question? Because the Minister might be listening? So what? But who, who pays your salary? Who pays your salary? That's nothing, I probably would say that it's not contentious, while it's Institution policy, and That's right. But at least you I wouldn't Yes. with my council. No. You've now started thinking about it, because you initially said, ‘I never speak for myself,’ and now you're thinking, ‘Ah, perhaps I can.’ Yes. Can in a lot of cases you'll just fog the issue if say ‘How do you feel about it?’ What I've done these interviews knowing about your subject, I don't have to agree my council's policy, but I and I understand how people feel upset about X, so that's trying to get the message across, you know people are upset, you can understand they're upset, but you're not actually compromising yourself or, because you're being interviewed as the council spokesman, you're not compromising the position of the council. Right after the ground rules are laid down by the station when you go in they say, ‘What is your title?’ and if I'm interviewed on behalf of the branch P R O I say that, if I'm an officer of Broadham District Council I say that, so the ground rules are there as to who you're speaking for when the interview starts. Fair enough. Yes. Basically, just let me ask you one or two questions about your service. I think, naturally, you'd, you would tend to anyway? Well, that's, that's up to you, but the, what, the point I'm trying to make is that I think it's important that you actually consider that before the interview is, is ever, ever takes place, because otherwise you could be caught very flat-footed. There are a number of, sort of a dictionary of useful phrases, I mean you actually used one or two just now, and one of the things that we suggest is that people when they're not under the pressure of being in the studio, which after all for them is alien territory, that they should actually have one or two of these useful phrases which do cover a, a multitude of embarrassing situations, if you want to put it that away. And they are quite useful to have in your locker. Yes. One very good one is on an ongoing story, ‘At this stage, I haven't really gathered enough information to make a positive comment.’ You know, now that is, that is when somebody is trying to take you further, there's, there's, there's the food, there's been a food, I don't know, food, food poisoning outbreak in a well-known city restaurant or something like that,there's thirty people in hospital, a couple are pretty serious,there's a general flap on because it's the height of the tourist season in Cambridge,and you've been called in. Now obviously, it is the reporter's job, and quite legitimate, to press you as far as he or she can, to find out as much about the story. But we all know that stories, you know, people have got to be out there at the scene taking samples. This might be going on. Never be ashamed to say, ‘Information is still coming in. We don't want to make any further comment until we've got all the facts at our disposal, because we don't want to cause any unnecessary problems for people. It's, it's an ongoing situation.’ Yes. Taking you back to the poly manager , if somebody says, somebody says to you, ‘Well what are you doing about it?’ you say, ‘I don't know at the moment, haven't got enough facts.’ And if you just put it in a slightly more formal way on radio, that's what you're doing is, you're not shifting the buck, you're answering the question, you're just, you're giving yourself a bit of leeway. Is there a tendency for you as a journalist, though, to go and look for information in other sources if you possibly can, to do Oh yes. Oh yes, of course. a story. If we're not involved in, in you getting hold of that picture then, the balance is pretty well Never, never, never sort of, never get so carried away with your own position that you think that you are the only source and the fount of all wisdom on, on any particular story. You're not. Because we may well have somebody down at the scene, who's in actually fact seen four blokes in white suits take away six plastic sacks. You know. Now, if we say to you, ‘We understand a vast quantity of samples have been taken away from the scene,’ now, if you don't know that, then should you know it? If you do know it, then, should you admit it, because if we've seen it happen, we'll report it as fact, because we saw it happen. You know, I, I have been put in that situation before, when I've actually seen, you know, and most reporters are working secondhand, but, you know, I have been in the position where I've actually seen,part of a police operation take place, mainly because I'd got stopped coming out on the Huntingdon Road after the, the Mill Road Post Office was, was knocked over a year or so ago. And I actually got stopped in the checks. I got home, I phoned up the police, and they say, ‘Oh, no, we don't know anything about any road blocks.’ Yes, just came through one. You know, and my story the following morning included road blocks. And the police said, ‘Where'd you get this bit about the road blocks?’ I said, ‘I've got stopped in it.’ So, you know, there are alternative sources. Here's an example happened to me. I was in a wine bar the other day and it was just before the opening of Stanstead, a few weeks before, and I met a chap in there who worked in the airport and we were just in conversation and he said, asked him what he did, and he said, ‘I'm basically on temporary contract preparing for the Queen coming to open the airport.’ And I said, ‘Oh, what's that involve?’ And he said, ‘Well, it's amazing, you know, they got to build her a, a special khazi that they're going to knock down afterwards. So I mean put all this effort in the building and for the Queen they knock it down afterwards.’ So I phoned up the Stanstead P R O the next morning and said ‘confirm that the Queen is coming to open the airport?’ and he said, ‘Well,we don't know, we haven't a clue who's coming to open the airport, yet. We don't know.’ And I said, ‘Well why was Queen's Equerry here two days ago then checking the place out?’ Long silence. ‘Ah.’ So that's just illustrating Gillian's point is that, information can come from a number of sources. There's always somebody who knows, isn't there? Oh yes. Coffee is on its way, we're reliably informed, it's From which city? Perhaps Luton, will it be hot when it gets here? I'm sorry, this is something outside our control. I have no comments to make at this stage. Yes, it's being tested first. I have initiated, I have already initiated a full inquiry. Yes. We were told yesterday that ‘No comment’ means ‘Guilty as hell’, but I mean you were suggesting No, I, No, No. Don't say ‘No comment.’ ‘No comment’ with a very good reason why. Yes, yes, ‘No comment because we're still collecting information, because we've got a lot of information already in, but we've got to assess it because we don't want to give out any false, you know false new.’ ‘No comment because it's got to be seen by the boss first because we're taking this very seriously.’ So ‘No comment’ and explain why, and the promise of something later. Something that came up yesterday was interview you had, and Graham to make the comment, and he, he was trying to make the point that he, what he said, what he recommended, would have to be taken up by the council, and actually by the council when it happened. And it looked like he was of bureaucracy, but what he was trying to perfectly valid point, that he couldn't actually make the final decision. Yes. Well,, ‘The decision isn't mine, my role is to make recommendations and it's a democratically elected council, it's up the councillors to decide final policy, and then it's up for, up to me to carry it out.’ Doesn't, doesn't sound like prevarication to me. Sounds, sounds all right. It's explaining the system. It's explaining that this is what the recommendation is, however, I'm not a dictator, I'm put there by you voters, your representatives have got to decide. Yes, it sounds like Sounds more like Patrick Missile to me. There are promising off-stage noises, heading in the right direction, if it's not a missile it's coffee as just been pointed out. Let's have some coffee, come back here in about fifteen minutes or thereabouts. I don't think I, I don't think I want It's fantastic. I mean, from our point of view, it's very interesting to hear you to hear what we say like in theory, confirmed, I mean, I know Right, perhaps I could start by asking you how you, how you became involved in the Co-op movement, locally? Locally,no yo yo your not wanting side of it? Well, yes as well Yes, well cos you see, I mean, you see you begin life as erm your, your shop was the corner shop erm you know the shop was the Co-op and of course erm we always went each week, my brother and I, er to the Co-op for the groceries you see, so it was all Co-op. And then erm mother of course, I can always remember was in the Guild and erm she would, the Guild in those days I'm always telling the er people today, were very, very active women, very active erm and you'd got them as councillors, magistrates erm come forward to all these positions. Councillors erm went on to be mayor and erm we even had one as went on to be erm MP you see. Erm, er so of course there was always people coming to the house connected with the Co-op educational side, you know and erm I used to sort of you kn understand it all, mother was the treasurer and sometimes the secretary would come down to see her. And then of course so both sides we new about. We knew about the social side and we knew about the, the shop was our shop. The shop was our shop definitely and then we got a chappie who went on to be a councillor. He was a club man and the Co-op had got a club. And the thing that I did say to June once was erm, you know, when I began to courting and seeing all the girls in the pretty little dresses and things, Marks and Spencer's had just got clubs going and that, you know. I wanted to go into their clubs because erm I used to the, the Co-op, the dresses were a bit frumpy and er whether it was just er me, or I don't know. But er, you know, we had simply got to have our things from the Co-op. It was er, you know, everything you wanted was from the Co-op, you see. Er so I, it was really instilled in me from a very early age. But er, I never, never sort of thought about the Guild, going to the Guild erm at all really, because erm mother, I say, was in the Guild till she died in nineteen forty-three. But from then onwards, they were always asking me to join, but by then I had already opened a young wives' belonging to the church. The vicar had asked me in the war to do this and erm I was secretary of that and I used to say er, you know you could only do so much because we wasn't like housewives today. Our housework was hard and long and laborious and erm we'd got two children to look after and then I'd got my brother who didn't leave home until he was thirty and er, you hadn't got the time, you know, to do too many things, so er my interest was the young wives' and it was really a as regards the erm the Guild itself, I was thrown in at the deep end when this lady who was with my mother, mother was treasurer, she was secretary, erm she used to come down for me and, I know you shouldn't canvass but she used to canvass and say erm you know the voting, you know, will you, will you come and vote? I'd say oh yes, you know but, still couldn't get me to go in the Guild and er, it was so strange that the, I can't remember, I think I've been in the Guild about twenty-five years so you'll have to do your own little sum. But, erm all that time I was running the young wives' and we used to hold a stall in the garden, at the garden party at the church, and w when you took your takings in, you know th the treasurer would say you know, who are you, you know and I used to say young wives' and then one day I said well, you know we're no longer young wives, you know we were getting old and I decided there and then I'd had enough of young wives', you know and er, er because I, I said, I, I was secretary and I'll close it down it, it erm the young wives' closed down and er er it, it had actually closed down and this lady was marvellous this secretary of the Guild, who would kno known mother and she was a councillor, she come dashing down, you know you, you,th the young wives' has closed and you know you've got excuse. I said righto, I'll come. So I came on the Monday night to the Guild and it, it wasn't long after, only a matter of weeks, before this lady erm she er came back home from Canada seeing to some other woman and er she just sat down and died. So her husband brought the case in the Guild room on the Tuesday night and erm I was sort of throw'd in at the deep end because they were mostly older women and they all said, oh well you're secretary erm yo I said yes, but I don't know the Co-op dual structure. They said well it doesn't matter, you know, you'll pick that up as you go along, so I was really thrown into the secretaryship you know. How, how old would you've been then? Er well I'm sixty-five you see, so I mean I would be in my forties wouldn't I you see. But I say, the, I'd heard such a lot of the Guild and the Guild's influence was in Walsall Wood I think primarily, as I'm always telling the women today, because they were so interested in the village and you got, they were local councillors, magistrates people you went to for advice. But the Guild's now you see erm don't seem to be they're not, not at all as active, its, its quite honest. Erm, but I mean, I've been true Co-op through and through erm Why, why is You'd better ask me some questions I think. Yes I will right, that's right. Erm why, why do you think your mother was so keen on the Co-op? What was it that er attracted her to it? Er, I think really it must've been thrift. She was a very thrifty woman because in spite of eleven children we never wanted for anything and you went through a depression like, you know. The divi was very important which is why I, as a Guild's woman erm through I suppose the memories of mother, was so adamant in against the dividend stamps because to us, that woman who I'd just been talking about, Councillor Mrs always, I'm sure no one would mind me saying it, but she always used to tell us that it was her thrift and she saved and they brought their house through this, the Co-op you see. And in those days erm I, the Co-op had got a building society as well you see, so it all tied up and I think mother, you know, I, I think it was a very good shop, I mean it was er so. My memories of it, I've got, I've always got wonderful memories of the Co-op, you see and that Co-op has been there m on that corner which, when it closed a few years ago I went down to see the present executive officer, he was then assistant, and we campaigned against the closing of Walsall Wood shop but erm course it was of no avail. I mean I was showing the figures and proved that er it wasn't paying its way but to me it had always been our shop, you know, from when I was child and wonderful memories you know. I can see, I've only got to close my eyes and I can see it all as it was. All, all men of course, there was no women in my youth, there was no women. Erm we did get a woman later on I think in this little cash desk where the money used to go in the machine you know and er, but you'd go in and you would have, it used to intrigue me that er you'd go in and the, the dairy goods was all one side and you, you would, you would, my brother and I would have our lists and it was, we were petrified that we case we made a mistake you know. And er, then he would carry all your goods in, in, I used to think it was wonderful how he managed to pick them all up in his arms and he'd walk round to the next counter where your other, you had your other dry goods you see, your tea and sugar and your fruit and er then it would all be totted up together. And as I say, in during the war years our rations, we were all treated so fairly at the Co-op I believe you know, we were really treated fairly. Er I can't really find, think of anything else to say only that it was thrift because mother was thrifty. We were taught to be thrifty. Yes. What sort of things did they sell in the shop. What, what range of goods? All, all everything. In Walsall Wood erm as I say, we used to have er two big bags full on a Fri Friday and then in the week we could go up but you've got your bread but, you know,yo the men would be, I can just picture them with their little, all this pretty coloured paper would all be in little piles and when there were no customers, they would be wrapping the rice, the raisins, the currants, all in these pretty papers you see and they knew, I mean you'd ask them for currants and they never sort of knew, I didn't quite understand how they could pick by, it'd be by the paper you see. They picked the mauve one which is probably currants and the other one was raisin. You sold er they, they'd got these sort of erm the old- fashioned, you'd see them in the corn merchants where there would be fowl er feed. Course I can remember it had a licence, a spirit licence before the war. This is the second war of course, I'm not quite that old. And I know he was very good to us in the war cos my father was, got a terminal illness and er he used to see that I had a bottle of whisky for dad you know, er the manager did. Er and of course I seen the present managers are, are th the one you know only just lives down the road here he's recently retired. Erm they sold everything. I mean er and as I say you had everything erm when er I wanted coal I mean you had coal erm because after my husband ceased at the pit, er that ceased because, cos miners always had coal as part of their er it was part of their wages you see. But er afterwards you had coal, we had the milk, the bread er delivered erm I mean really e literally everything. I mean we hardly went into another shop and yet, you see, we have a young chappie like yourself who comes to the Guild once every year and shows us slides of old Walsall, Walsall Wood, Aldridge, the local area, and he said I'm not very good Ruth at talking but he he'd got the slides you know, and it, it used to end up with me doing the commentary on Walsall Wood, because you stand on the of Walsall Wood, which is there now, and your Co-op was right on the corner which is why I call it the corner store and you see people congregated there, people met there and when I'd been accused of the, we'd been at the college or at other conferences and why can't we get Guild members today, well that was the breeding ground your shop, you see. You would see a likely customer er likely one come in, you'd say why don't you come here, we only meet upstairs. We met upstairs, in a room upstairs you see and this is where you got all your contacts and of course, the men all knew you. I remember as a young woman before I, even when I was courting, a young boys was there writing little notes behind the counter trying to make dates with me you know erm er it was, oh it was more than a shop. It was and yet, I'm losing my thread with, what I was going to say was, it must've been so important because an in that you could get anything you liked. You got your Co-op on the corner. But you could go down there, you could get clothes, the fitted made-to-measure suits. You could get erm the fishmonger's, three other er butchers. The Co-op butcher was, had got his own shop lower down You could get everything in that one street and now in this modern age, we've got nothing, we've got to get on a bus and get into Walsall and so this is where it, we get infuriated because you know, in this progress we've lost out haven't we? And erm, this is why I say to the Co-op now er they know my feelings because my husband had only got erm he had er trans works transport which when he retired erm he, he, said well what are we going to do? We're going over to Michael three months of the year and there was air fare to find and there was holiday money, cos we used to go away with Michael and er so we didn't have a car of our own. We got a free bus pass and we, we used our money to, which I'm glad we did with my husband only having a few years. Er I'm glad he did have, what he had was full you know. But I mean, now you see erm I, I've got to er go to since they closed Central, and I haven't got a car erm so I'm not going to carry thing, I can't I'm with, with arthritis in my back I can't, I can't carry really only a very small bag, so this was You you feel these changes are definitely for the worse? Definitely. Definitely. I don't know where this Doctor had this idea from but I don't know how many years ago, but I remember I had my Co-op news every week and, and he said that he could see us going a full circle and I'm just wondering when he's gon if I'll be alive when it comes round again because I, I don't think that these big mass stores erm as I say they're all right you see, people with plenty of money with a car they could fill the freezer up. But you don't get that choice you don't er and to me I, I hate going because the, you, you got everyone seems to be, it's, it's as bad as a road really with the trolleys erm and I badly miss this over-the-counter service but er It's a very personal service then? A very personal service and er I just, well I, I don't know unless you ask me questions what else I can say really. Is it, did they have a large staff? How many people would have been working in, in the old store? In the old store? Ooh there would, would be some staff really. I, I, I couldn't really give a figure I mean Mr he, he would've soon told you, the manager down below. Erm he erm I should say at a rough guess there would be at least eight. I should've of thought there'd be eight, eight. And you see, the, the, the boy would be there with his erm bike with that funny big er cage on it The basket the basket. It was like er cage as the basket fitted in and he would go round. I mean Tommy who, who he retired just as a magistrate erm and a manager erm he is in this last focus we've had you know the centenary, er Tommy and I. I mean, I can remember him on this, er on this bike and then he rose to be a manager and er as he was, I say he was the manager fo er magistrate up until he retired last year. Er, there was such a big staff and as I say, there was no erm the women didn't come into it till the war. Not in the grocery, I suppose there would be, I mean erm as I say I was never thrilled with the clothing department and when I did get involved with the deals, er I'm afraid I was a political animal and I would've have been more interested in the political side. But I was thrown into this Guild secretary business and er you can't do both, not when you're trying to erm a family and then by then my son was away and erm I went got a job and the Co-op gave me a job. The said well, you know, if you want a job we'll find you something and erm. I worked in quite a few departments in the Co-op erm and I was secretary to the education er in those days, whereas Miss member relations er in the, when I was there we were just education department with an educational secretary and erm then, he, we did all the staff training as well. This was a paid job was it? Oh this was a paid employment, yes. So then I began to be really pretty busy with running the office and then keeping my home, but I'd got a husband who was very, very, handy and helped me out in the home you know. This was, this was after the war was it, after Oh gosh yes. I've only gone since er, erm you know I say Michael'd be seventeen you know, it must be like twenty years er you know. I've been up here tw twenty-three years and I didn't go out till I came here so I should say I was about twenty-two years ago I started back to work. But you see, I just went to the education officer and I say, he, he ran it, he, it, it was, it was his responsibility the Guild's were and I went to him about a Guild matter and I said oh, erm how I mentioned that I was working and he said well where are you working? I said well I thought I'd, er the doctor advised me to actually. He said that brain of yours wants working. I said so I've been to a local firm and he said well if you'd wanted a job we could've found you one, so I went to the Co-op and I went in the credit, working in the Co-op credit and er went from there to. It was from the credit that the, I went the education secretary his, his secretary was retiring and er he came for me because he knew I knew Guild and Co-operative work you know. And what sort of things did the education department as it was then, what sort of things were they doing in those days? Oh, well I think it was different to what we're doing now. I mean I'm pleased with the way the dividend stamps are helping the hospitals, which is a, a very, very good thing but erm, I think we did a very good job. You got a very good committee, dedicated committee erm who, you see the young trainees were sent to the technical colleges and you see, erm some of them did go on if they graduated to Stanford Hall, but I mean those that went to technical college, we used to have to get the committee to sit in at the examinations. We had to pay the lads their bus fares and er the things like, when they went to college. Er, we were, as I say, responsible more or less for staff erm and er so we were pretty busy really. Erm I, I think it was er you know a good thing that in a way that it was parted and made er staff, you know, training officer and business you know, sort of thing. But we certainly did some good work in the education because I think that we erm we used to, you know, of course we'd, we'd got used to use our auxiliaries naturally and erm we used to have a big conc a big er concert once a year in the town hall and er we would involve all the auxiliaries you know erm and of course we used to always erm fell a bit flat, the International Day which is July, the first Ju Saturday in July is International Day, Co-operative International, and we have always, the Guilds have worked very closely with the International Day. And we used to go to town, we used to have really good, good er good day erm we used to have a procession and erm local, course local dignitaries used to come er, I I've got a, one or two pictures in my scrapbook where erm it, I was asking, telling Jean she would have to look up er when we did begin trendsetters. But, I know we, we, my two women won the competition. One went as Miss Rochdale in these old and the other was Miss Trendsetter. She was a very little dolly bird you know and she looked a real Miss Trendsetter you know, in the mini dress you know. Right. You were saying you, you remember the trips Oh the trips was marvellous. I mean, I remember mother saying that, you see mother had never seen the sea till she joined the Guild and they decided to save for an outing, and then the next thing I can remember was that we used to have these stamps every week and I think it come to two and ninepence erm and for that we went to Rhyl. And this was not only Walsall Co-op, it was the Co-ops as far as I can remember, because er er you know I wouldn't take that for gospel could I'm not not sure because I was only child. But we used to l I think I can remember going three times and we went on the train and we would have a big label with branch number seven, we were Walsall Wood and we were always told that, you know, you look on the sea front if you get lost, cos you've got your name and who you belong to on card was all given out. And, you, you make for that and on i on the sand there'd be number seven you see, so you could got to dive for there if you were lost. And we were given this lovely bag you know, with your buns in and your lunch and I think at these kind of things erm were very, very acceptable and you see it, it was, it was involving people er with the store, not just your groceries. You see erm even the erm and of course, your clubman I think coming round, he got to know er the people he's we as well you know, they could save up for things. I, I haven't heard of the clubman. Tell me a bit about him. Oh. Well you see, the, we, we always had club collectors. There was twenty week club you see and I don't know, I mean up until recently I was in the credit when we used to have credit. Erm the men used to co the women used to come and pay their money and er I used to do the slips. Erm they used to call round you see. It would be shilling in the pound I think it was. But you see, you, you see, you could, you could have your goods then you'll be paying on the slip and he would give you a slip you see. And I mean, again, he was a contact with you like your milkman. Yo yo you knew your clubman was coming, you've stayed in and that is how our local clubman who is now dead, Mr became a councillor because naturally, people voted for him against the Conservative because he was someone they knew, someone like as came you know. And then of course you've got your, I think people made more use of the convalescent club, which we have got. Erm we've got a convalescent club for members and I think people made more use of that and then there was a time when I remember er you see, even the death, there was a death grant. The death grant has been finished quite a long time ago, but there was the death grant erm because I can remember you know this, people telling me about this. Er I don't, I can't even remember whether I had anything for mother in forty-three and forty-for, but I do know there was a death for quite a long time. And these are all things that made the Co-op so personal didn't they really. More than just that shop where you go in you can go all round and wander round and you don't see anybody only filling the shelves up and half the time they don't even, can't even advise you where to go can they you know. Where, where can I find this you know, they don't even know. I haven't asked you anything about the Guilds yet and this is obviously of your involvement. Erm you, you got involved through, through the Guilds because of, of your mother's As a mother. Perhaps you could describe how, how the Guilds actually work an and how they sort of, how the committee were appointed and what the sort of, how the or originally the ordinary meeting was organised. Well the, the er the Guilds I can speak now because I've been up to a higher level, I've been on the section and Birmingham is a very big area. And I can tell you that erm Birmingham City Council told me this erm that if ever they need anyone to chair a meeting they would look to the Guild, committees. Even if they're sort of not erm involved. But they know these people because you co-opted on, so I was on standing conference of womens' organisations. Working womens' organisations you get co-opted on and the, we were known for the way, the business-like way we run our meeting you know. Erm for instance, you go to one meeting and erm you would just sort of , mind you I think probably you may not agree, young people perhaps think this is the best way. I've been to Stanford Hall where they have you in a circle but at least, I think,wh however you sit, you must have a president in front of you in a chair and someone to keep a little bit of order. Whereas er I've been to a meeting where, you know well, will you come and speak? Well there was no one, no table or nowhere to put your notes, nowhere, one to sort of say well this is Mrs she's come from so and so. Well we wouldn't tolerate this in the Guild. This has been, you know we've always, and we always go for the rule by the vote, one vote per member and er, we stick to our rules. We have our little rule book and we let a woman come into the Guild for a few weeks and then she's told the rules. Er one of the rules is you must belong to the Co-op you, you know and er you must have a Pound share in the Co-op you see. And you must also have, have that, naturally, before you can be on the committee. And you have an A G M once a year and every, everything is goes by the vote, you know if president's, there's no time limit. Er well each guild makes their own mind up whether they have a new pre if, if they want the same president year after year or secretary. At the moment I can never get voted out of it you know. Er but we're very, very business-like, very, very, business-like. Erm we, we have of course, we've got a, we have a congress each year, which erm we, each Guild is allowed to send one delegate and so really, we always stress at the top level that erm you know, it's you that run the Guild you can't blame head office, the Nat National Executive, because you're the ones who send the people to the top, aren't you? And it's just as I've said in local government, er we only get what you've put in. It's your fault. You've had the vote and who you've put in. But erm we're very, very business-like. But we've found out er that we have er we still keep our programme erm I can show you my programme book. Er we still er we have to submit to Miss officer. It is one of the rules that er we get a grant from the society. We get our, we're very lucky because as I travel ov in the country, there's lot's of Co-ops as the Guilds don't get the grant or they don't get room rent. But we in Walsall er I say Walsall is West Midlands er been very, very lucky. I'm always stressing this to my people because we do get a room rent, a gra and we get a grant every year according to how many members you've got. And to qualify for that grant, you have got to submit two er your programme for the year and you've gotta give the secretaries, you've got to give a report and you've got to give your balance sheet and er, Jean is always, I must say, very pleased with mine because erm you know, we do give quite a lot to charity. We make ourselves known in the village w erm you see we've got the peace movement at the moment and last year er we always have put a wreath. We always march in the parade on Armistice Sunday and this year erm I picked my poppy wreath up from the vic from vicarage and I said to the Vicar, you don't mind if I wind some white poppies in this one do you, because it was the Earl Hague poppy you know. And he said not at all, not at all and I said well I do want the people to know that, you know we, although we tribute to of the lost lives in the two World Wars, we are now striving for peace and so I wound a few white poppies. And the vicar did pick this up in his sermon and he did mention the Co-op Womens' Guild and so we were very proud that we'd been mentioned you see, you know. Erm as I say we are known in the village and this is, er this is what it's all about. It's getting known isn't it, really. If I could just ask you what sort of activities the Guild, the Guilds are actually involved in today? Er well er I think, I don't think they are so politically activated and this is where you haven't got your forthcoming erm members on committees. You're not, you've not got your councillors coming forward and er you know that, which, which I would like because the, the only way you'll get your, get anything is by sort of working for it and erm we are very proud you know, I don't know whether you've, you must've seen the book you know erm the, the was brought out the centenary, the eighty-three and er, I mean er, er there's an awful lot of information there. Erm my thread's gone for a minute. This is what happens. about caring and sharing The caring and sharing, yes erm And actually it does show how they were politically quite active Er you see there was, really activists and you see you've not got the women coming forward. They seem as what women we are getting today er just want social er and yet my own particular guild, I'm just wondering if it's the secretaries that we're, we're jus it's the good secretary we need of course really because, er this sounds really awful of me, it sounds a bit big-headed doesn't it you know we would, we would say. Erm but, I mean er you know, I tried to instil we get a good programme and we, we, we get really interesting, no we di we wouldn't like all socials. We like, we have erm a sort of er we have a current affairs and that night we pick up, we all have a say on something that's be topical on the television that particular week. Years ago we used to have the W E A Lecturers and erm that, they always did current affairs and er of course we have the different councillors. I always involve the local councillors because at the moment we have a running battle with them over the er repairs, because most of us live in council property in my particular Guild, and so we get involved and s you know what you're going to do about these you know. Erm but erm we get involved. Of course we get co-opted onto other committees, so we are involved in with others you know. Erm You mentioned, you mentioned the erm movement towards peace that's, that's quite interesting. I didn't, I wasn't aware that that was still a part of, of the Guild work today. Oh well the Guild, yes I mean first and foremost we, you know, we are pledged to help the Guild. Er help, the Guild is pledged to the peace movement. I, we're not, I don't know whether you've got, we could say we were activists, we don't, I don't even know who goes on a march or anything, but we do do our best for anything we support and get signatures for anything they ask us to. We do support them and as I say we buy our poppies, we wear our poppies and like this year we put them on the wreath as well you know er we're very keen. Of course, over the years we've campaigned, as I was telling someone only yesterday in another club that I go to at the church, that I said you know we, the Co-op Womens' Guild, were helping to put water into Africa before any of this Band-aid and Live-aid was thought about. Er we had er buy a bucket of water campaign and we did erm er you know I, we went in local shops selling little stickers and it all went to and the wells have been dug and I believe Afghanistan has got wells that have been dug with, through the er Womens' Guild. Er we, we do worldwide, we do sort of take an interest, but that again is linked up with your Co-operative International erm isn't really, you see. But the, you see if you look in the, I have information off the Birmingham secretary, er Secretary's secretary, she was involved, she even was imprisoned in Switzerland erm when the peace movement was on between the two wars, and that was when they were, I believe it was a German woman that er that was on, you know in the committee, but I'll have to refer to the Caring and Sharing book. Erm er they formed this committee and erm it was in Switzerland er where they were at the time. I mean they fought valiantly for peace but I, I think that erm the maternity bill I think is what everybody admits that we shall always go down as being noted for. Erm I've heard it said lots of times that whatever else er you know gets forgotten, we, we will remembered for the maternity bill, it was an awful lot of work. Because we can work. We can, we can badger our MPs and erm until they do and, and because they are oblivious to a lot of things that are going on in their own, you know till we put it in front of them. So erm and the other thing was the erm the maternity bill er what is the other one that so interests me that, I've got my two favourites, erm and that is the cervical, the cancer smear test. Now that, we never get any credit for it and yet we did an awful lot of work. I can remember, you see I don't think today's Guild women would go around with me. We knocked on doors and got signatures and erm. I have got of piles of papers between er still. What am I gonna do when I move next week I don't know. Because er the, when, between us and Westminster and MPs to get this cervical cancer smear test going you know and one of the women that was very prominent in Walsall was, she died with it herself, but she was an older woman you know, just too late to save her. But I think that, you know, we've got so involved we've done a lot of work in our time, but now we don't seem to be erm There is a younger element coming in they tell me. I've seen quite a few er in the so well you see we belong wi the Guild is fit into three tiers. You've got your er local tier, I'm a local Guild attached to West Midlands' society. But then you see we've got a section which is Birmingham and then we've got a Head Office. So you see we, we've got a three-tier movement you know, throughout the, throughout the country. Er and in the South Midlands' section, I think it is erm towards Coventry and Nuneaton, we have got erm I can even remember the name of the Guild it's we've got a lot of younger women in there and these are younger women that, it's very, I'm very pleased to see them and when you see them go to the rostrum you can, you know they really are, they seem as if they're a revival of the old camp because we, we've got to campaign you see and but you, you try, I mean I'm getting beyond it really myself and yet you see, you try and whip up erm an aging movement it you, you want younger women you see. You want you say your mid- thirties erm er to sort of campaign with but I think we really, this is what we used to be, a campaigning movement and this is what we are no longer. Now you see, they, they want a social, they want a night out er but they're very, very loyal to the Co-op, er particularly my o I can only speak for my own Guild. They, they're tremendously loyal and as I say, when they closed Walsall Wood Co-op we went to Aldridge the next little visit. Then they closed that. And now some of them go up Brownhills, you know they're very loyal. And erm they're loyal to the society because it, they know really it's partly through them supporting the Guilds that we are able erm I don't know whether I would get the membership there if you've got, you see we pay a subscription to, see it costs five Pound a year at the moment to be, to be a member of the Womens' Guild, which we, we send dues as I say to these three sections you see. And I don't think if you've got it out of the Guilds and say now we've got to have so much for the rent this week I don't think I would have a Guild very long, because they can go round the corner. There's so many clubs now isn't there? They can go round the corner to the, er I go to a church club er and I pay twenty-five pence and that includes my raffle and a cup of tea you see. And, and you see you're competing with things like this aren't you? Now Jean was pleased because I do sequence dancing which I learnt with my husband, and so now this coming September when we start back again, once a month I'm going to teach some sequence dancing in the hope that some young ones would, will hear of it and, and join because then once you can sort of get them involved with one thing you may sort of get good numbers. But I think this is the kind of thing that we really need. We, we need the younger blood because you, you talk and say well how are you and oh my leg's bad, my leg's been dreadful this week and you can't very well ask these people to go campaigning on the streets, can you? And comes electioneer election time as regards political er then you see the, the la the Labour Party would like you to help them because we are Co-operative Labour. I have stood twice as co-operative Labour candidate and didn't win either time, er much to my husband's disgust, because I, but you see at the time er Labour was very, very low but erm the local people, you can tell by your boxes, was very loyal to me. But you get the erm the little estates that've grew round Walsall Wood erm you see they were all Conservative and it was, but it was just a straight fight between but, he said it was a good fight and er we had, we had two. Were, what were the erm the main issues in, in your mother's day. I mean were, were there any sort of political issues she felt very strongly about? Ooh great a, a lot of politic this is what I say they were, when I think of them I can remember them, even as, as a young girl and you know remember them they were all very, very er they were only just the average working woman er I don't think, we had got, there again we'd got an extremely good, they'd got an extremely good secretary, a well-educated woman erm and er the whole family was involved and it was one of their family was went on to be an M P. But erm perhaps because I had a good, I don't know. But erm the women were so involved, they were on all these committees, they were, you know, harassing committees and they er really working they were. Er of course as I say, they er this was the ma the maternity bill I think was, would, would've been my mother's day more than mine you see because I mean then yo the woman didn't get the maternity allowance and Was, was there anything your, your mother felt particularly strongly about do you remember or Well I think it was the maternity because I mean she had had eleven pregnancies so I think she she was very, very erm able to talk about it and I, I don't, I know Dad had got a good job in the, well if you can call any pit job a good job, but say that the money was decent, but I know that she always had to have two doctors and it was, it was in those days we were, it was good we were in a doctor's club because, you know, you hadn't got any er the maternity and, and the, and the ante- natal and pre-natal and goodness knows what that we've got today. So I think, if I've gotta say, mum's I should say was maternity which you, they were very, very political animals. The Walsall Wood Guild was in particular and when you look round, even the Walsall ones were like because you've got erm er you've got board members. The first president of Walsall Society was, was a woman Guild member. She was from Russia, you see. So I mean you got, they were very, very politically- minded. Did your, did your mother talk at all about the er the nineteen twenty-six Great Strike? Oh yes, of course, yes, of course . That must've hit Walsall Wood as a mining village. Yes, yes, it, it hit, it hit us dreadfully yes, yes and you, you would've, this er chappie who showed us slides, he showed us erm er you know the soup kitchens that we did erm they did and I think the Guilds' women were involved with that you know. Er I, you see they used to work, the Guilds work more with the political party, they worked, I'd, I can't see my Guild women going to the Labour Party erm you see. Er they supported me and canvassed for me when I was putting up, but I can't see them going, whereas I can remember the erm the when I was a child going to the, we used to have a fete and it was a politically, I can't remember exactly what it would be called, but I know mother and the Guild were always there making the tea and got a stall and they were always in the forefront and they'd always got their rosettes on. Erm cos the Guild has sort of, this is a new thing, we've adapted the International flag and we wear the er scarves, which, which the asked us to wear, we, at the church service you see, but you, mainly the Guild women in those days would be wearing the red rosettes of the Labour Party you see. Er I remember it so vividly because it, at our house it was quite er an event because mother and father were so Labour and my brother, who erm he, I don't know why, he's not alive today and I can't so I, and I've no idea, I don't think I ever asked him because I'd be too young, but I do know that the friction was in the house because he was working for the Conservative and she was the first woman that we ever elected er she, this, this lady did. She was a local farmer's wife and she went on to be our first member of Parliament and me brother was helping her and mum and dad, you see, was working for the, we, we got the house as a committee room and all, all the and I can remember going with mother, we had, we had a Co-op paper or it was Co-op orientated I'm sure news and I can remembering canvassing Walsall Wood with me mother, well I can't see my Guild members doing that. We canvassed all round the village you know, the Guild members did and to get people to take this paper. You know they were really, but you see, in the, in, in the to modern womens' favour you see, these women hadn't got anything like we have today. They haven't got the telly which is dominating the house, have they and these other things. Er, you see wh when I'm tr when I'm speaking in favour of today's women this is what I look at. You know mother'd used to come back so thrilled with all these slides they'd had and they'd had the local doctor as well. We had a course of first-aid so that we were pr prepared er for first- aid in the home you know, which is a good thing erm in our Guild. I always seem to, I think we, we were always at Stanford Hall that we must, it was a must that we have a good programme because if somebody comes and there's nothing doing, they think well you know yo I, I, you see I suppose I've got that orientated into Guild work but a friend of mine enticed me to go to er a club and erm it's just simply for any age group, any sex male or female, but you must bereaved you know and erm she is a widow and I was widow, so I went but you see we, we sat round and you just, there was nothing organised and to me who had always been organised, I just felt so like a lost soul you know and er then one chappie put some records on and you cou and you couldn't dance to them and I said oh, you know to me I thought wh you know but I don't want to do it, I've got enough to do but, I, I was straight away, I was looking for the organisation behind it you know. Yes. You mentioned Stanford Hall then and you've been on courses at Stanford Oh yes yes. Oh right. So what, what sort of courses would those have been? Oh these courses mainly I've been on is being opening the Guild you know, how to open a Guild, how to open you know, a Guild erm and er I've been on consumer courses erm such as like that paper they just sent this week on what's on, I mean that is nothing new they've sent out in today's Co-op news you know that our own label and all the nutr because the nutriment, I can remember er being at Stanford Hall on, on a consumer course for a week and you see I was on the er when I was know, know longer an employee, I was on member relations you see, representing the Guild and you'd go through there sometimes and that would probably be a consumer task. I don't rea I can't remember who sent me, when on a consumer course. And I can remember having big long sheets and they would take us into Nottingham and just dump you at a shop and say now you know, go in and fill that in. And it would be you know, which tin is the best value, which has got the most in and all this. So it's nothing new really, those, those labels have always had the contents and things in you know. Erm I see And, and who would, who would pay for theses courses? Would it be the local society? The, the member relations as was would, would pay, would pay for you. It never came out of er ha our pockets at all. You see they send you er and of course we always in, asked the Guild women. I've got a Congress fund which, I mean today it's getting so dear to go to Congress erm you know, the hotels are so dear. It's a three-day Congress er and what we do in our Guild, we have, we had a house party on a Tuesday night and she's told me she made twenty-six Pounds and erm we, we send our, our delegate Congress with that money you see, er because you see, er women would not if you couldn't say you could sponsor them. Erm that's where the money comes from because er So actually you think the, the, the local society had, had quite er an important role to play then really in, in sort of promoting education. Oh definitely, definitely. I've got I, I as I say, I feel very grateful to the society for giving me the chance. I had, until I took the role of the Guild secretary, I, I as I say, I think I would have gone on to being politically, erm but I felt I couldn't do both. Er but I went, I've been, I've represented the society at the big conference of the Co-op union, which is you know each society sends delegates you know and erm er I've,I've always liked this kind of thing. I've always enjoyed it and sometimes I wonder if er probably, as I think I've think I said before, erm this goes back to what kind of a secretary you've got, you see. Erm my Guild always say they're lucky in having me because I've come back and give them all the information and they seem to be so well-educated themselves now you know. Erm Did, did the erm the, the central society themselves, did they, did they run sort of adu adult education type courses there in Oh yes. We've be run courses you know and this they used to, they run directors' courses, directors' training courses and things like that you know and public speaking you know. We erm of course, this is besides the ordinary classes that they take erm now I believe there's doing something for the erm, what was the one I looked at on the board the other day for tracing your ancestors back, you know. Erm yes. I wa I was talking to erm Mr the other day and he was saying that when he started at the Co-op it was a, a very, very good place to work. Yes. Erm was, was that still true when, when you, when you worked there? Do you think it was a, a good employer or? Er yes I think so. Er but I, I think really I was probably er you know I was er when I look back, erm I was not in the, in the, er what, what words do I want. I wasn't in the actual throe er, er I wa I've always been more or less a loner. Er I was in the credit and I was with a large group of people there and they seemed very happy and I think we were fair, we'd got good conditions. We had erm very good canteen facilities erm I think er everything was quite good. But then I, I went on to be secretary and more or less you're loner again in another office. And then from there I went to the grocery manager, I was his secretary. And I ended up in the erm my ended my career as the in, I was in charge of the stone, stone masonry office working for the funeral manager. So I always say well I went backwards, I went to the dead end you know I think I ended up very low in the Co-op really you know er but erm Did they, did they do things like erm staff discount and things like that? Oh staff discount was very good yes, they did the staff discount. And er, you know of course, you've got employees on your committee. They've got a very good welfare committee er employees' committee you know. Erm I don't know erm how it is like, as I say because I, I've been left now ten years eleven, eleven in May er so erm I, I really, I don't know what, how things are with the er with the employees really you know, but erm I used to enjoys my meetings once a month erm and I think everybody seemed fair, we got and of course, according to the Co- magazine that we have, that Focus, they always send me one of those still and er I mean, you've got er, we used to have a good football team and I think they've still got a sports team haven't they? And er they did a lot for that fun run and er made money on there erm I think they've kept the, the image up really. I don't know, I think. Right. Going, going back to the early days you mentioned that erm the dividend, the divi was quite important. Yes. Your mother used to take her, her dividend out did she? I know there, there was quite a lot of encouragement to actually leave your dividend in and build up interest on it. Er yes I, I er I think I, I couldn't really speak definitely on this but er you I have said that we, you know that this secretary encouraged them because you know, to keep it in and even the one woman said this was how she got a deposit for her house and through, as I say, you'd got a Co-op building society as well. But I think er with a big family like mother had got, she used to like her divi day erm for erm you know, well say save up, well it used to come round about May and you'd think well just, you know just in time for the summer shoes or something you know. And er it used to be quite event when you saw all the queue and, and er of course with Walsall Wood you've got the room over the shop where the Guild room was and a rest room I think for the staff. There was another little attic up above. And, you know, the queue'd be all down the stairs and all down the road and to be truthful as a, as, as erm I, in my early married days of course erm I, my money accumulated er because of sort I didn't really need it. But er, in my later as I was rearing my two children erm I, I think I used to spend mine. I can show you now erm what I bought with my divi and we had a speaker at the Guild er on stainless steel and er he,wh you know when they asked questions you said well how do we, how do we clean it? So er I thought well he, he was not a too good a rep because he, he couldn't answer this question. I said well, I can tell you how to clean it. I said in my teapot there is a little, and he told you to use white tide and you put a little bit of tide in it once a week. I said what I do is if I'm going, I know say, Fridays, I'm going shopping, gonna be out nearly all day, put, put it in the tide in, it comes out and I can show you my teapot, it'll be, it is clean now. And it must be, I've been up here twenty-three years, it must be getting on for thirty years old that teapot and er I couldn't have afforded that money for that stainless steel teapot, as those days, but I had it with my divi. I can remember that so vividly and it's still going today so that's saying something for British Steel erm it was local, you know the erm the one at er Old Hall Old Hall yes, yes, yes, yeah and so I think and of course erm I have talked erm I talk in the different clubs you know, as I say, and I think erm the majority of women usually like this, they look forward to the divi to buy say a major item, you know. Erm but we were encouraged of course for it to go er as your savings and er something I heard that, that may be interesting to you er and er he just said to me in this other club, but again we were talking about, I think we'd talking politics then and we're not supposed to do it was a church club. But erm er and, and she said erm you know the little, we were talking about the little corner shop and how they used to keep open all hours. This is a private little shop you know and her mother kept this little shop, mother long since dead you know. And she said it was so funny, she said, you'd get the, the so the poorer people perhaps would use this shop and erm and yet she said, people I knew in the street erm that were Conservatives dealt at the Co-op, where it was I suppose the best buy and they were saving the divi you know, and we thought it was quite funny really. I don't know how it would appeal to you but we thought it was funny. But I think this is, I think that I know it w it was the arguments that went on when we were on about going dividend stamps was very interesting, I quite enjoyed them and you can you know, definitely what came out was that erm it was a bad thing because erm people, er maybe it's good if these stamps are going to the Co-op er going to the hospitals I'm all for it, but I'm afraid mine I keep them to for myself and erm er I get so few these days now my Co-op's gone but erm you know usually I go and get a bag of er, box of teabags with mine, you know and er so I use my stamps now erm. You, you feel that was definitely a, a wrong move to Oh definitely, definitely I think they did. But of course we were very strongly against it really but er, because th you know we'd been inundated with all these marvellous ideas of this progress and it's all for the best and everything, but it doesn't seemed to have work does it really? Erm I must say that on the clothing scene, because I did criticize it in my earlier statements, er that when I was so young I thought it was so frumpy and I was so pleased when I was married and got my own income that, you know, I could go elsewhere and choose something. But it, it did and, and I think there again a little bit of Guild influence because when er we were at meetings we would say, well what are you going to do about the er drapery you know and eventually we did get this better erm you know, drapery. Erm you, you mentioned that the local corner shop sold virtually everything. Yes. What, what sort of things would be delivered erm? Oh I should suppose just grocery I should think really. I, I can't really because we never did. We, we actually lived in th the corner shop is right on the corner if you've come up High street on the bus and your Co-op would be on that corner, your church and your Co-op's on the corner, and just turns there and I only lived just down that street, so we never had to have it delivered because we just popped up er and my brother and I, I can so remember us going with our two big bags you know and we, you know how you do when families meet you know and he'll say that's the time, because dad, we never knew dad hit us and yet you'd of thought he was, we, we were so scared it must have been his voice you know, that he erm that we was so scared that everything was all correct from the Co- op. The, the you know his tobacco had got to be ready-rubbed and we, we still remember that. But no, it was a certain type of tobacco but you'd got to bring it ready-rubbed and er you know, it's back to the Co-op you'd go and it wasn't very far. But of course it was lovely with er, er they used to trim it up Christmas time you know and it used to be so lovely. It, it was a really nice size shop Walsall Wood was, but my sister, remember is eighty-two, I asked her, I told her you were coming and I asked her if there was anything she could tell me but er she do couldn't tell me much more than myself. She used to come a long way, right from the top of to walk down to her Co-op, a long way. But again, it had always got to be from the Co-op, because it had come through mum you see, really and er sh I say she is eighty-two. But she remembers the Co-op having its first shop just, still in High street, but half way down, but then they had this prime position right on the corner, you know and it was a marvellous, a good Co-op I always thought. They, they always took your, they as asked for your share number when you, when you bought something, was that right? Well, a, at the Co-op store. Was that right? Well we used to er you see, you know when you paid you had your cheque. My, my mother's was five-two-nine-seven and mine was seven-five-one-eight-one. And you know, you always you er give, gave your number you see and er course some people I believe had an a I believe in later days they'd given the older numbers out again, I don't know wh you know, because some people that've joined since me have got an older number, so I don't know whether they've given the ol they were sort of long since run out, you know. . Thank you very much. Let's have a look at this finger. Gentlemen can we have a bit of quiet please? Assif, Neil, Colin. . What did you do to that finger, Lisa? I slammed it in the car door. Slammed it in the car door. Sorry about that. I'm doing a Mr . . Right. Don't worry. Where did you slam it? Here. Across there. Gentlemen. This may hurt a little bit. Right. Ladies and gentlemen. Er just quietly while I'm checking Lisa's finger. What's happened Lisa Look, if I press those two fingers, can you see they go white? Yes. That one goes red and that one stays white much longer. The circulation to that finger is poor and I think there's something interfering with the circulation. Also I know you had it bandaged up but the skin there has gone white and I honestly think that ought to be X-rayed. . To be perfectly blunt with you I would suggest that erm that wants doing fairly urgently. It wants checking over. Can I just feel If you lift your hand, would you please ? It er it's not that bad. It doesn't hurt. Yeah it's not that I'm worried about. Would you have a feel Kelly? Mm. Can you tell whether you think that finger's colder than the rest? Yeah.. Yes I think so. Your circulation to that is poor and that wants looking at quite urgently. Seriously. Erm is anybody at home? No. I think you ought to get that X-rayed. Right. Ladies and gentlemen. Sir, why have you got that on your er ? Right er let me explain briefly what's going on. Mr 's daughter, I think it's his daughter, er is working for the British National Corpus and they are looking at the how words are used in ordinary everyday situations. And what they've done is they've asked various volunteers, mugs, call them what you will, to be er recorded while they are carrying their out their normal duties. So . . I might have known . it would you be you Ashley . Is it on?. It is on, yes. . When do you switch if off? Whe wh wh when you get a bit angry ? Let me just very briefly read you one or two of the things it says. We are asking a large cross-section of people and organizations around the country to help by allowing us to record their conversations, ! meetings, broadcasts and so on both in private homes and on company premises. These recordings will then be transcribed onto computer and built into a database which will contain several million words. Why? Sir, how long's the tape? . Forty five minutes. And the aim is that the conversations are going to be anonymous and they are trying to compile a dictionary of words that people actually use, rather than a dictionary for people who do crosswords. Oh. Sir will you erm wh if you change the tape will you tell us? Well I've er turned the tape over after side one, which was my first lesson and I'm now doing side two, which is this lesson and the idea is to look at the s way in which language is used . .. It is very interesting the way two different groups react to the same situation. . Now the other group realizing that of course this is serious research project were of course Wh wh wh ! quite sensible . . On the other hand there are people like Neil and Assif who are obviously trying to make names for themselves. . Right. Er ladies and gentlemen Sir, er can you pick up from away with that? Yes. . . Thank you. My teaching point starting off today . Thank you. Is starting off from Lisa's fingers. . Eh? Eh? Why what what did she do ? . She trapped them in a car door. There you go Sir . Now there's a serious point from starting from there because . There are three main components of your blood. White cells, . Yep. Next one? Red blood cells . Red cells. Red cells. . No they don't absorb carbon dioxide. Alright then It's the plasma that does this, which is your last one. Alright. So your three components. Your major part of your blood is the plasma which carries the carbon dioxide away, the red cells carry the oxygen and the white cells fight disease. And the red cells are far more numerous than the white cells. What Erm bit of revision for the biologists, what is special about the er red cells? Why are they different from all other cells ? No nucleus. No nucleus, right. The red cells contain which element? Haemoglobin. Well haemoglobin is . Haemoglobin is the red colouring compound that carries the oxygen and gives the red cells their colour. What element has to be present in haemoglobin? Iron. Iron. Right. That is why somebody who is sort of iron is anaemic. Shortage of iron makes people breathless, get tired very easily, the reason being that there is not enough oxygen being carried round the blood. That's why somebody who's anaemic and somebody who's got blood loss suffer very similar symptoms. In both cases, although for quite different reasons, there's not enough oxygen being carried round body. Now iron is the crucial element there, and it gives it this red coloration. When you suffer bruising you what you're doing is rupturing the capillaries in the er skin. So the capillaries are the very fine tubes that carry the blood around the body. And for the biologists again if er if you look at the capillaries in the body, there is no cell in the body requiring a blood supply that is more than one fortieth of a millimetre away from a capillary. So your capillaries are all over the place. Now if you damage yourself by whatever way, and the classic one that we see at school is if you get banged in the eye in rugby, somebody elbows you in the scrum or something similar,you then get a swelling caused by what? What's happening? Fluid. Fluid, yes. The blood is actually leaking out of the capillaries into the surrounding tissues and you get several effects. So let us say er well let's take an example, you've just been er hit in the eye by a hockey ball hit by our friend Jonathan. . A sort of typical everyday school accident. Or you've been er clouted on the elbow by Jonathan with a hockey stick or something similar. Or whacked in the face by Natalie. Mm. Well apparently rumour has it that the doctor at the hospital who dealt with these last cases was saying words to the effect that er Jonathan just put Jonathan in a situation and he'd keep the hospital in business for evermore. So let us say you've been hit in the eye accidentally by a hockey ball. Very soon afterwards because of that blood leaking into the tissues, what is that wound that injury going to do? Swell Sir. Swell. It's going to swell. Because of the blood coming out oozing out under pressure into the surrounding area. What colour is it going to be? Red. Pardon? Blue. Red. Right. So a black eye starts off red, and it starts off red because of the blood leaked into the skin. If you feel it what is it going to feel? Sir. Sore. Well apart from feeling sore. It's going to hurt, right, cos of nerve damage. If you actually feel its temperature? Warm. It's going to be warm. The reason it's warm is because of all that warm blood that's leaked into it. So when you first get a bruise injury those are the sorts of things that happen. The chemistry comes in as to what happens later on. Now the red blood cells and so on have leaked out into the surrounding tissues. They are then the fluid eventually absorbed and the swelling starts to decrease. What colours does it then start to turn? Yellow. Er green. Right. Blue,black,purple,green, Violet, orange. yellow, . And you get a real spectrum of colour changes. And the reason for those is the iron in the blood is being oxidized by various substances in the body, it's being broken down into a form in which the body can reabsorb that iron,and during the process you go through all these colour changes because of the different forms of iron oxide being produced. So when you get a bruise that's a nice yellow colour, yellowy-green, you know it's a very old bruise. When we're doing first aid incidents erm the standard thing we're doing for adults when they're doing a first aid exam is we'll give present them with a casualty with perhaps a cut hand or something like that and they'll actually have a black eye. And quite a lot of the adults will try and treat a black eye. Now when I say a black eye I mean one that actually looks blue-black and is quite swollen. . What's the point about that black eye? It's old. It's an old injury, yes. If it's gone black it's a least a couple of days old. So chemistry in action. When you start turning funny colours tha that's because the iron is er being broken down in the body. Now. taking the chemistry a little bit further,there are two sorts Thank you very much. There are two sorts of conditions in the body. . Right. What does what is Jane Fonda into in in a big way? . And don't answer that one , I want the honest legal answer. Fit erm fitness things. Fitness things. Called what? Several ways to . . Come on. Aerobics. Aerobics, right. . Right. . This is actually tying this up with an exam question, I was looking through some past papers to try and spot things we may not have covered in detail. . Aerobics. The whole point about aerobics is that your exercise is done with plenty of? . Oxygen, right. So the key thing with aerobics is lots and lots of oxygen. That means that the food in the body is burnt up totally and effectively. What fuel does our body actually use at the muscle level? What fuel does our body actually use at the muscle level? Produced by our livers from the food that we eat. . Right, you're on the right lines. It's it's sugar. Er you mentioned glucose in fact the one that is actually produced Dextrose. Dextrose. If you are very ill,to save your liver having to do any conversion work to convert sucrose, glucose into dextrose, you're actually given dextrose and saline solution because your muscles can use the dextrose erm straightaway without any further conversion. So when you're very ill you get dextrose and saline. The salt is to make up for any salt that you lose. So aerobics look at burning that oxygen with the sugar effectively and completely. A sprinter will actually work in different way altogether . Anaerobic. Anaerobic. Good. Now Anaerobic sludge. . Yep, we'll come along to anaerobic sludge later. Anaerobic er is without enough oxygen. Now a sprinter beforehand will actually be on the blocks and will take in a lot of oxygen to try and saturate as much oxygen into their blood as possible,so that when that gun goes off they will aim to have all of their red cells where possible carrying oxygen. During that ten second or less dash for the line they will actually be using up oxygen faster than their bodies can take it in. That's why sprinters when they cross the line very often collapse many of them, because they've used up their oxygen so much so that there's not got enough and their brain switches off momentarily and they collapse. Till they They faint effectively . . And they use anaerobic conditions. They don't have enough oxygen because you just can't breathe fast enough to use up that oxygen in that tremendous burst of power. That's why sprinters can't keep it up. . Ana Anaero . . I'm going to wish I hadn't said that. Anaerobic conditions m er mean that the sugar the dextrose is burnt with the oxygen and actually forms lactic acid. Now lactic acid. Now lactic acid . Yeah lactic acid Is poisonous. is poisonous in one sense . Gives you stitch. What Yes. Neil, say it again. Gives you stitch and cramps. Yes, gives you stitch and cramps. Yes. Cramp? That's why when you've been running hard you've got the stitch or whatever, that's caused a buildup of lactic acid in the er muscles,what you then do is your muscles say, Enough. You end up er collapsed, taking deep breaths, and what that is trying to do is that the deep breaths are circulating oxygen into the body, the oxygen is then able to break down the lactic acid into other substances which are less harmful. Sir, on that after you've had food does more fre more often than when you've had nothing to eat? Right. Good question. If you take food Food is absorbed in a form which your body cannot directly use. So you don't get bacon and eggs er floating round your bloodstream. So for that to happen for that food to be converted into a form that your body can use it's got to be broken down. Broken down in your liver, and your liver has to do work. Yes? The liver to do that work has to have a very very good supply of oxygen. If it's breaking down lots of food, a really heavy meal, then it's actually maybe making such a big demand on the oxygen level in your bloodstream that your oxygen level in your bloodstream drops and there's not enough to go round the muscles to make to break up any lactic acid that's being formed. Because your heart isn't being given the triggers that says, Hey, I'm exercising, I need to pump more blood round the body because I'm doing exercise. The liver's just quietly working away churning this food into blood sugars, using up quite a high level of oxygen, and the rest of the body is suffering. That's why overeating's considered bad for you. Taking it a stage further we've got a situation where we have two types of bacteria. Two types of microbe. We have aerobic bacteria, which need plenty of oxygen, and anaerobic bacteria which do not like oxygen. And somebody mentioned earlier, I suspect it was Colin over at the back, or one of those . about anaerobic sludge. . And at the sewage treatment works And this again is on the syllabus folks, so you need to bear it in mind, The sewage works, they make use of both sorts of bacteria. In the early stages of the sewage works when they're dealing with the liquid they use aerobic bacteria. So they warm up the water sometimes, they either blow warm air through or at Stoke Bardolph they whip up the erm sewage with fans which beat air into the water, and the aerobic bacteria digest some of the harmful substances in the sewage. The sludge is then separated off, and that is heated in tanks away from oxygen where anaerobic bacteria break the sludge down into an odourless substance and produce methane gas. The methane gas is then used as a fuel round the rest of the power s er in the power station to provide electricity for the rest of the sewage works. . So you have two sides to this. Aerobics, anaerobic bacteria. Now anaerobic bacteria include things like erm tetanus, and another one, which is lovely, is gas gangrene. Let's have a look at tetanus first of all. Where do you find tetanus bacteria living? Hopefully not in you. Hopefully not in you. Yes, I'd agree with that. In the dirt. In the ground. Yeah. That's right. Soil. Particularly in soil in areas where there've been cows and things in the past. And if you think of the country as a whole,er you'll find tetanus in most areas of the country. For example, here is an old farm. It's an old what? . . Well if you look at it, this was called Top Valley Farm because it was the highest valley coming out of the city. The farm that was here we've got the name Old Farm Road because of the farm. When this school first opened the estate over there hadn't been built yet, and the farm buildings where still there when the school first opened. The what estate? . The estate. The what estate? . . The estate where you've got and er and all those names. . Just down there Assif. Right, gentlemen. Now then. If you scratch yourself and you get soil into it. For example, there was a dear old lady who was pruning her roses, scratched herself on a rose, and er a little bit later died quite horribly of tetanus. The only thing she'd done is make a small scratch with a rose thorn and was unfortunate enough to get a piece of contaminated soil Sir, when did it stopped being compulsory for you to have a tetanus jab? It's not actually compulsory now. Er you But they like sort of push you to have one don't they. They do indeed. And the reasons I'll come onto in a moment. Cos I'll er thought I'd explain to you what happens with tetanus. The reasons they push it on you is that young people particularly do activities that are liable to get infection. Like for example, you get flaps of skin ripped off by er people's football boots and you get soil underneath the flap of skin and obviously you've got ripe conditions for tetanus infection to get in. As an adult,adults such as myself haven't been through the procedure as a young person where your immune system's been challenged by the vaccine so that you've developed tetanus antibodies. You will have been protected hopefully from birth, or shortly after birth, by the tetanus vaccine, which will have caused you to produce antibodies against it. And because of that, I believe they recommend when you're stop your school vaccinations, you have a top-up every ten years. Now in my case,I have got buried away in the depths of here somewhere my tetanus vaccine card. If I can fi Here it is. The doctor who last saw this said, It's somewhat of a museum piece. As you can see, it's just er mm Even with its sort of . plastic cover to try and keep it nice it's looking a little bit er worse for wear. The reason is that in fact I acquired this on the thirteenth of August nineteen seventy two. I wasn't even born then. That's right. So that is twenty one years old. Not only that, it says The accident department in Nottingham General Hospital . . Exactly. Erm so that shows what a long time ago it was. And it says You have been given one injection of tetanus vaccine absorbed and another of tetanus antitoxin. These will protect you for a short time against tetanus. Now you lot have all have the tetanus vaccine. You haven't had the tetanus antitoxin. And you're about to say, hopefully, what is the difference? The difference is that your body takes a long time to react to the tetanus antitoxin Sorry, to the tetanus vaccine, to make antibodies against it. During the time that your body is trying to make the antibodies against the infection that infection may well spread so rapidly through your body that you become seriously ill, indeed, your life may be threatened. To protect people who haven't have your course of vaccinations, what they do is they inject the tetanus vaccine into a horse. The horse makes antibodies. They then draw off some of the horse's blood, remove the serum containing the antibodies, return the blood to the horse,and these horses are used for producing the tetanus erm antibodies. So what you get is an injection of the vaccine like you have and a legful of the horse serum. And the horse serum er allows the tetanus antibodies from the horse to fight any infection you have got. How come they use the horse Sir? Why a horse? Because a horse has got plenty of blood and doesn't miss a bit of blood drained off and then returned. Right. Also a big animal like a horse produces lots and lots of antibodies. Now the problem is this, human beings are not horses. And when you've had your tetanus . When you've had your tetanus antibodies from the horse serum you then normally develop an allergy to the horse serum. If you then get it a second time you will then possibly have an allergic reaction to the horse serum. Now you don't get tetanus cards to carry because you've not had the horse serum. I have to carry my tetanus card so that if I was er injured and unconscious and not being able to say that I've had the horse serum, the doctor thinking, Oh look look he's got lots of soil in that cut, er give him a quick injection of the horse serum, that could actually be fatal. . Now lockjaw, tetanus. . Tetanus is a anaerobic . Thank you very mu . . Thank you very much for telling me. . Right. As I was saying the er . Tetanus the old name is lockjaw. And it's an anaerobic condition that gets into the nervous system and causes nerve paralysis in such a way that you get acute muscular contractions. What happens is this, that your You know you've got two sets of muscles? Your muscles normally works in pairs. There's one muscle that pulls your arm that way and another that pulls it back again. I think the proper word is, and biologists will correct me if I'm wrong, antagonistic muscles. . Yeah, that's right . One works one way, one works t'other. Now in lockjaw . what happens is both muscles contract together fully. So you've got one muscle trying to pull your arm that way, another muscle trying to pull your arm that way, and your muscles become rigid and locked. There h have been cases where the person's back muscles have pulled up so tight that their they've formed an arch. Their head has been in t touch with the bed, their heels, but the whole body's been arched like a bow with the contraction of these muscles . . Does this happen in your jaw, or ? No, it's all over your body. But it's called lockjaw because er one of the stages is that your jaw actually locks solid. Is there any like a cure or have you got to ? Yes there is. death . . Mm. Well that's what I was going to come to. There are now only two places in the country that actually deal with tetanus poisoning. One is Oxford and the other is in Leeds. Er Sir, what do they do in Scotland then? You're flown down in helicopter to Leeds. Is that how common it is, Sir ? Yeah but if you're in your arch how ? How common is it? . Yeah but it doesn't come on quickly Assif. Oh. It's quite a slow disease. And that that lies in the problem, because it's so rare now doctors have a great difficulty in diagnosing it. Right Neil, the reason is, at one stage there was er centres all over the country that could treat it. It has become so rare thanks to vaccination that there's only two n places needed i to cover the whole country, Scotland included. How do you treat it? And the answer is Thank you. When you have an operation these days that's lasting anything more than just er a couple of minutes or so, they will insert down your windpipe an endotracheal airway, which is a tube that goes down into your windpipe to seal into the windpipe, so if you vomit, for example, no vomit can down round that tube. It comes out of your mouth and instead of a mask over your face, your this tube connects directly to the ventilator and the anaesthetic machine. In order that you don't fight this ventilator, and also that you don't start twitching when they start carving you up, they inject you with a chemical er a muscle depolarizer that stops your muscles working. Now the only muscle that doesn't stop working Heart. is your heart, because that's a special sort of muscle. So you are completely and totally paralysed. You cannot, literally, move a muscle. The only muscle in your body that's still working is your heart. . . And you are left in this condition during the operation, then at the end of the operation they give you a second injection that reverses the first one that paralysed you. Any side effects? No, but I'll come onto some effects that it did have in a moment. Now. If you've got tetanus, to stop you breaking your back with these muscle contractions, so that they can nurse you adequately, they inject you with this stuff and you are paralysed until the tetanus has been fought off. They will give you the antitoxin, they will give you the vaccination, and they will keep you breathing. Cos what normally happens is with tetanus, that the reason it kills you is that you stop breathing because your muscles that work your lungs, the diaphragm, the intercostal muscles between the ribs, those seize up and you just stop breathing. So if they can keep you breathing and get your body to produce the necessary antibodies, then they can cure you. But it may take three months, so you are three months possibly on a ventilator. What will happen is, at regular intervals they'll take you off the ventilator inject you with the er antidote to the depolarizer and see if your muscles lock up. If they do, another injection, tube back down and back on the life-support machine. Now bear in mind that you may be up anything up to three months in a condition where you're completely and totally unable to move a muscle for yourself. That's Ugh That's why it's specialized nursing, because the nurses have to do everything for you. . . The physiotherapists will come round and they come round regularly and exercise your muscles . to try and stop them wasting away . . Which ones do they ? Legs and arms, particularly. Oh. But there's another one . . Now just imagine you are imagine being paralysed by this drug and yet being fully awake. You can't do move your eyes,er so your eyes are actually taped closed to stop anything going in them. Just imagine lying Can you see? there continuously. Well the answer is you'd go stark staring raving mad. So what they normally do is they also give you by continuous intravenous drip They f have to feed you by this tube, . and they also give you erm a suitable relaxant erm so you go into what's called t twilight sleep. So you're not really conscious but you're not really unconscious . and you don't care what's happening to you . . And you'll spend three months of your life like that. Now then, Assif was asking were there any side effects. Let's have a look. There is a certain Asian anaesthetist who used to work at the City Hospital Maternity Unit. I say used to because he's been struck off the medical register. What's he done to get that? The answer's simple. When you have a general anaesthetic for a caesarean section or a general anaesthetic in general, you are first of all given a pre-med. Now the pre-medication is a drug based on atropine which has erm I'm not really Anti-something- or-other and er I can't pronounce the words concerned. But it h er has certain effects which basically cause muscle relaxation, small amount of muscle relaxation, dries up the saliva in your throat. Cos obviously if you having an operation they've got this tube down your throat and your mouth starts filling up with saliva, they've got to suck it out. So this drug makes you very dry, also makes you drowsy, the idea being that you're basically not going to worry about what's happening to you. Pain. Okay. You're then taken down into the operating theatre and the first injection you are given is usually something on the lines of erm er special K,ketomine or the most common one is thyropentone sodium because it's the cheapest. This is an injection of general anaesthetic into the vein, back of the hand, or the ar arm, which puts you to sleep very quickly. Once you are asleep they then inject the muscle relaxant, put an endro-t tracheal airway into your throat, connect you up to the anaesthetic machine and get the life-support machine breathing for you. The ventilator. So you are therefore paralysed and, hopefully, because of the anaesthetic you've been given in the form of gas, things like er halothane, er enfluorane Come in. Mr . . Right. Possible R O A, cross curricular, we'd like to keep that as it is but we can change that. Looks reasonable. Right. Oh, by the way Mr . Ah. I've done that. You've done yours. Right. . Sir,to do summat to do like she was paralysed but she could still feel the pain? That's the one. Yeah. And so this poor woman who was supposed to be asleep, And the problem is that er it's very difficult to decide whether somebody's actually unconscious or not if they can't move. Now normally if you're not unconscious and they start cutting up open you're going to scream. Yeah. But if you're paralysed you . Exactly. Now this poor woman the anaesth Ah. . Sister . Poor woman. Yes. Erm I've got a girl sitting down in the foyer. She is she she was just running and she's done something to something there. She's not in pain sitting in the foyer so what I've said is you'll look at her at break time. Can you? Cos I'm I would say she's pulled something but more than that Right. I'm trying to sort out the e year eight sex education with Bernie at the moment. Oh well er . Yes. We're actually talking about erm er muscle er depolarizers Oh right . used in general anae er anaesthesia, Right. and I was telling them about that Indian or Asian doctor at the City Hospital in the Maternity unit. Which one's that? Oh the one er who didn't give them enough anaesthetic so they woke up . Oh right! Yes they woke up and they're carving them and cutting away, but couldn't say anything. That's right. Yes. Brilliant, yes. She got quite a lot of money . Mm. Five hundred thousand wasn't it? Yes. Was it a caesarean section? It was. Yes that's right. I can't imagine . Anyway, she's she's sitting there . but she's okay while she's sitting still. Right. I'll have a look at her. Okay. Thanks, right. Right. As I was saying. So this poor woman is er anaesthetized, intubated, which is when they put the tube down the throat and connect you up to the life-support machine, and then she's supposed to be being maintained in her unconscious state with inhalation anaesthesia, in other words they give her er gas and air to breathe to keep her unconscious. Unfortunately this anaesthetist wasn't very good and he didn't give her enough. So she woke up. Now bear in mind, she er normally for an operation they normally tape your eyes closed, put a pad over your eyes as well, just in case they drop something on your face by mistake during the operation. . So she's completely and totally paralysed but she's paralysed and can feel pain. So she suddenly feels what's like something like a red-hot knife being put into her stomach. It wasn't a red-hot knife, it's just simply that the surgeon had taken this knife, started to carve her abdomen open, and the heat part of the heat was the actual blood that was coming out of this wound. Ugh. And then of course they've got this soldering iron type thing called the diathermy cautery device that seals up the blood vessels and this is being stabbed into her. And all the time this is going on she is completely and totally aware of everything that's going on. Now when they reverse the erm paralysis and take the tube out, the first thing she does, quite unsurprising, is screams,and then proceeds to tell the doctors exactly what's happened to her. Now the doctors don't believe her. Until she starts to tell them word for word what they said during the operation. And the next thing she does on recovery is file a criminal n erm a sorry civil negligence suit against the anaesthetist. . Now two things. Number one is erm if Er this is unlikely to happen today. For example, a member of staff in the school, who teaches not a million miles from here, had a hernia operation. And it was done at the convent hospital, where the anaesthetist there, not only gave this gentlemen a general anaesthetic but also a spinal anaesthetic as well. That's when you inject a chemical in the spine to paralyse the nerves below that site. So we're working on the principal that even if the person does wake up in the operation they're s not going to sue you cos they can't feel anything in the area you're operating in. Sir? No. The other side of that is that I was listening to Medicine Now on Radio Four, and they've got a device where they you actually have er an earpiece put into your ear and it clicks continuously. . Now the idea is that er they put a couple of monitors and monitor your brainwaves. They put you to sleep and this clicking continues As soon as you start . and as soon as you er go to sleep your brain level drops. So your r er reaction to these clicks drops. As you start to recover your brain's activity rises. So this device couple of electrodes on the head, this device in the ear clicking away madly,and they monitor The anaesthetist s connects it all up, presses a button saying Awake, injects the person with the thyropentone sodium, where they can assess the effect because they haven't paralysed the person yet, when the person stops responding and is asleep they press the button for Anaesthetized, and then the machine logs the differences between the brain activity between the two. Then if the patient starts to wake up, this device sounds an alarm saying that the brain activity is increasing, and that is commensurate with the person waking up, so the anaesthetist knows that he's got to put a bit more anaesthetic into the person. So hopefully that's going to stop this sort of thing happening in the future. But er one of the major problems is that surgeons are trying to use less and less anaesthetic all the time. Can anybody suggest why? Less side effects Sir. Yeah. Fewer side effects, that's right. Er What's your chances of waking up then in an operation? Very small, thankfully. It's quite rare, which is why it made so much publicity. But the erm chances of dying in an operation are one in one thousand eight hundred. Eh? Chances of dying in an operation are one in one thousand eight hundred . Can you die of your pain? Er would be possible. Now before Neil starts panicking and worrying about that, bear in mind that that is spread over the whole spectrum of operations, including things like heart transplants and the like, and also, for example, an elderly person who's just been smashed up by er Astra G T E . and who's going in for emergency surgery and whose chances of coming out are virtually nil anyway. . So if you are a n relatively fit normal person your chances of survival are excellent . are these the chances of surviving er a hernia operation or ? For the average hernia operation which is done remember as cold surgery, not as an emergency, the chances of dying under the anaesthetic are vanishingly small. How small? Put it this way, you're probably at more risk of dying crossing the road. And er one of the reasons they've reduced the levels of anaesthetic is because the more they reduce the levels of anaesthetic, the lower your chances of dying during the anaesthesia. Right. Any questions about that? Yeah, what what you got under your ? You've got . . I don't know. Recording in Edinburgh on the evening of Friday the fourteenth er contributors contributors and see the sheet number one in terms of context government area from Mrs . terms of sponsorship The first subject is sponsorship. Well does it act? Does it, does it act that question, does it act in the modern way and if it does how much does it act in the modern way. I mean you must see it yourself. Okay there must be a reason for doing this, but er I'm more concerned with getting oil out North Sea. How can it help me do my job?point of view the reason is that it can help you do your job is very simply that to involve members of the public er local councils, local authorities, decision makers and allows the outcome to, to erm entertain them and to erm hope for and communicate what it is they'll come erm in a non-threatening, non-selling, non-hard sell environment where they can come along, they can enjoy themselves and go away and form their own opinions without somebody over the head with what they're try to sa trying to do erm I suppose while this is for me cos on the sponsorship issue is, would sponsorship have any impact in terms of what I might purchase so if I went to the Scottish Opera or the ballet or to the theatre and I bought a programme which I usually do and one of the things which is interesting about the evening that erm Alan and I spent last time at Scottish Council was that half the people attend Scottish Opera buy a programme and the programmes that I have sponsored always. Would I then purchase their goods as a result of a programme being sponsored by that company? Now I cannot think of a single occasion over the years, my adulthood when I have been going to theatre arts events of any kind when I've actually gone out and bought anything as a result of sponsorship of a programme I've been looking at. Now I, I mean I, okay I'm only one person, I mean is round the table is there anybody who can say that if Quite for me it depends on i i in a sense I think it's perhaps more subliminal. in simply why not and simply hoping that someone's gonna go out and buy your brand of petrol for example erm I think for me it's erm there are so many messages flashed at people every day erm do this, do that, buy our product instead of X and X's product but when you've paid, when you're faced with that purchase decision, and I, I would say perhaps this is true for most people from most jargon. I think erm if you shopping performance the week before and if the programme have been sponsored by Kellogg's Cornflakes then it's possible that if you were in your local erm Sainsbury shop and were faced with a number of alternatives to buy, there is possibly a chance that you can buy Kellogg's Cornflakes. Mm. It's, it's, it's very desperate and I'm not saying that you would do it back because of that, but it may just be the thing that influences you to buy a particular brand, particularly the things which are heavily erm which have many alternatives to buy. I mean er imagine you the programme should be really sponsored by soap, soap companies Alan what I I don't know the answer to what you're proposing I really don't know the answer and er I mean I can only go on the, my, my experiences and my experiences are I've never ever consciously or not aware of ever having bought any as a result of Mm. Now interesting because erm one of the things I did before Christmas was I went out to and it I think it's my memory it's sixty percent of Scotland is, is, gets its power from nuclear power Sixty per cent of the Yeah central group does yes Yes and that means forty percent doesn't it if you know what I mean so we can make an assumption that Hydro Electric comprise a chunk of that convention Yeah a convention. So therefore was there anything for me as a consumer go along to the theatre, have a back programme that has been sponsored by Hydro Electric to use the bad example. I mean it makes no odds does it? No. I mean I think the message that they were communicating last was that it's about them being appearing to be a good Yes, but the interesting thing in last night's He said and I don't think that they were meant to be perhaps they were meant to be in order of importance. The first was the reason for sponsorship was visibility and publicity, the second social responsibility, the third brand development with special reference obviously to the drink companies. Corporate hospitality to be seen to be involved and to win awards. Now my view is that I think rather like your comment on Christian doing concerts, Scottish Amicable er Standard Life Scottish Hydro, Scottish Power, Scottish Nuclear I don't necessarily see it as making influence to make a decision to make a purchase or to recommend a purchase to the third party in another part of Scotland Right but I do actually think that one considers they're playing a part in the community. Now the part they play in the community depending on your political statistical or whatever leisure interest viewpoint may be that you think they haven't got the combination right but that's obviously a very subjective thing, but I think that I mean the visibility and the social responsibility implements I would have thought are two of the most important for people. Well I have to say that as a result of last night's session I have a much healthier view of Hydro Electric and I do so would I have got that from the programme? See what I mean? I mean we were in a particular discussion last night I mean that chap was making a particular point and we were able to ask questions and that was very useful and it helped everything else and as a result I have a view that Hydro Electric have a certain commitment to the community and I respect it for having that commitment. I was particularly impressed with the comments that Mike was making about organization makes to charity which it doesn't acknowledge, it doesn't sort of er seek to publicize erm but I wish programme Yes, they rationalize but I wouldn't have got that from a programme. But you see one other person who was there last night was at one time involved with a major, no longer major Scottish company which did all its substantial charitable giving anonymously once a year through its lawyers because they decided that they did not wish to be publicly associated with any particular thing and then the representative from John Lewis said last night Yes that John Lewis doesn't publish its erm most of its charitable giving either and that they done quite a lot but that surprised the man in the queue and yet interestingly I think that and she said I was right in my assumption that that is part of the partnership philosophy of John Lewis that they work in partnership with their staff and in partnership with the community and they make their profit which is generated to start through the community which they sell to and therefore they quietly give back without wanting to play their own trumpets and in a sense I think that's how it should be. From a personal point of view I think that charity, charitable giving by er companies whether big or small should be erm should be erm on that basis I mean they shouldn't be looking for acknowledgement but unfortunately in the real world companies are looking to see what we can get back in terms of the investment they make and But especially Peter let's let's think about people like ourselves and the kind of work we do. If you and I were working for an organization which gave say half a million to charity, our, I mean correct me if I'm wrong, but I, I'm sure our temptation would be to say how can we promote this giving in the media in order, let's be honest about it, to make our, us look good, partly that would be it. You know there we are the, the marketing communication P R people whatever we are and so therefore if that organization we worked for gets published in the media, positive company But then you're back to the centimetre argument. Well no I'm not actually back to the centimetre cost I don't agree with the centimetre argument er the centimetre argument I mean I'd rather have one good solid paragraph which Yes says a lot than twenty that said nothing. but that's right I mean when I Cos people don't read the nineteen centimetres anyway That was the interesting thing that said to Alistaire last night that a three column centimetres depending on which periodical it is or paper it's in can do you far more good or damage than twenty at another. Mm It's about perception. Yes. I mean most companies would rather the four centimetres or whatever over a or and says that says things they'd like to hear, than have erm than have say er which basically Provided they know that that's the game and the problem is I and I don't know about you Peter or, or you getting the manager's but I have actually worked for organizations where they do see it in terms of those centimetre arr erm measurements and that's a you know I mean it's funny when I've been giving talks on communications erm one of the things I say to people is erm where your stuff appears is crucial don't worry about one and page three. Where it doesn't appear is crucial too. Mm. But I'll say is it on the gardening page, is it on the letters page, pray for the sports page I always say and people look at me quite you know with a quite a look on their face when I sort of say that and I'm absolutely serious, I'll say you know if you get a four paragraph story on the gardeners' page, you're home. If you get a four paragraph story on the letters page, you're home, if you've got a full page or a two paragraph story on the sports page, you should go out and celebrate and, because those are the ones that people read and look at and that's what's important to them and that's you know that's that message that you . It's very hard to get that across to some people. But I think that's that is the erm educating managers and my, my own Yes view is that one hopes that my hopes are that of the direct report you er worked for erm is equal and competent and is erm in a sense courageous and brave and that they realize that sometimes to get the best results you have to do things which are perhaps challenging and orthodox Yes erm one of the best programmes that I participated in was a programme where yes, money was spent to get matter for bucks as it's called. Yes Get maximum press coverage and it looks good, but there is also equally a very considerable programme running, very gently sort of going at the community, working with the community, holding hands with the community and getting results erm a policy for for But it is one of the, isn't one of the other interesting things about the sponsorship the potential, the partnership and empowerment as Mm opposed to the nation. I agree. I mean it's interesting you're using that, that second you used erm empowerment a number of people are saying to me you know that empowerment is a word they have problems with. I have no problem with empowerment or I love the word empowerment, because I split it up empowerment increasing the power we all have, for God's sake what's jargonistic about that? I mean it's about sort of you know in it's about increasing the erm where we are within our own particular sphere and it's far too much I mean people it's interesting that I mean for the, it seems to me an and once again correction but it seems to me the last five years the empowerment thing was really strong and now managers are moving away from it and saying it's jargon as a means of diluting it. I, I think I and,an and therefore taking away what work appear to be philosophy, let's go out there, let's do it individual, we can deliver the goods. Now because of the, because of the unemployment people are scared Well then you change the words about changes you know Yes, I know, yes but I mean it's interesting at lunch time I had a, I had a working lunch with someone and a month after we had finished all the work and stuff, we got on to a whole pile of other things and, and I was talking about some of the -ists and one of the -ists I was talking about was feminism and how I'd been in an amazing meeting a few weeks ago where you know I used that word and the women, it was all a meeting with women, the women there had absolutely freaked at the use of the word feminism and feminists. Was that in gender or, or ? Yes. At the Yes. Yes. And you know I, I actually had phrases like bra burning thrown at me and erm I I said that feminism to me is about having the same opportunities as men and I put few of the phrases er er you know along those lines and so everybody round the table said well yes I believe in that too, I said well then you're feminists and so it's about valuing or devaluing words as well and you know you just made the point about changing words, but how far do we go with this? Do we get to the stage where you know you look at the word empowerment, do you change the, the use of the word empowerment because people are saying you know well that's jargon and all that doesn't work any more or can't do that any more. Well a case where you Or one other word which is to say that sponsorship is enabling because if you go into a partnership like A B S A it enables you to get the gov similar government funding. Now A B S A show there's an organization called the Association for Business and the Arts and what that means that if an organization which has not sponsored something in the arts before decides to do so the government will give a similar amount of money er at a lower ceiling of a thousand and up to a maximum of forty thousand was it? Mm. Yes so that if for example a company called Twin Plugs or something says right we're going to sponsor a concert, because we're opening a new factory and we think this is special and we want to do something, we will put in ten thousand pounds. If you do it through A B S A, the government will give another ten thousand pounds so of course for the orchestra or the institution whether it's opera, ballet, concert or whatever is, but it must be arts gets the extra money so of course that in a sense is very enabling. One of the difficulties that actually struck me last night about an organization like A B S A is that how wide, and in fact I've got something in my filing cabinet next door which will tell me if I looked it up, how wide is the umbrella of the arts because we don't have anything similar for sport, we don't have anything specific You're absolutely right for young people and if one of the things that corporations to my mind have a positive duty to do which is the social responsibility and we live in a society so increasingly fractured, rudderless and you know not so far away in places from anarchy that they have a duty to do things which effect maybe to see one the Bs not the A ones the Bs surprise Well then you don't know me But in fact what they should be doing is planning effort into things which underpin the fabric of society and to underpin families Mm that's right and to deal with problems of substance abuse, unemployment, illiteracy, rather than things which are fashionable and to my mind highly like opera and the ballet which isn't to say that I don't love them both, but I think that you have to have a sense of complete reality about the social issues. But then that question was asked last night erm from one chap about sport versus the arts and I suppose to me it is a quality of life issue erm where do you start an and stop I mean you have a problem when you have a recession don't you, where you say okay we i we are in a recession we have got limited resources we have to make decisions. We can cut money off, let's make some easy quick decisions about cutting money off, let's chop out the arts you could do that on one line easily and I think you have to look at the long term you have to look at what happens in terms of our culture, our civilization if you do do that, how people change and to me it's about and that was raised last night too about how an saying that they had put a limit on the cost of opera tickets forty pounds, compared two fifty two fifty price of the ticket? Yeah. Bloody hell, sorry And a minimum price in Glasgow of three pounds Fifty. so, so even if you're in the or whatever you know you could still enjoy a meal and so that is about making it special to everyone. I see that as a big change I mean I see that, I think that was coming without sponsorship. I think it would be to survive and to get the audience its erm its target audience was getting smaller and smaller Mm. and it had to appeal to a broader group. I mean last time I was at an opera was erm I had these tickets now erm I took my sister and a friend of hers. Do you know what the total price of the tickets would have been if I had to pay for this, one hundred and ten pounds Mm and there's no way I would have paid that. The opera was great, but I wouldn't have paid for that, I mean compared to rock erm a rock concert performance and most of the rock concert was twenty quid a ticket Yeah, right you know what I mean? I know what you mean. Er it's just I mean that is just ou a, a, a box we had dress circle tickets. Then of course then you go back to government subsidies and whether or not they are, taxpayers are prepared to pay government subsidies, so the tickets don't cost the price you were talking about Mm. erm and of course you, I mean look at what you were talking about with rock. Okay as prices are cheaper, but you do have things like Coca Cola getting to those kind of things and everything else which you know where they might not to opera and it's because it's more popular and they know what they're doing. talking to huge Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that companies shouldn't sponsor ballet or opera, but I think they have to not lose sight of sponsorship potential with the disadvantages as well as the anonymous giving branch, because small amounts of money to some organizations may do disproportionately more than the Scottish Opera I agree with you But, but mind you I again and terms Scottish Opera I think issue Huge issue th th the Scottish Opera and the cultural organizations don't, don't think that I'm being very left-wing when I made my points Peter. I also, I also actually said that a co a country that does not promote and sustain its cultural heritage in the widest sense of its world w in a word e er i is a country without a history and if you lose your social history and your culture, then you can't progress Mm. which is probably very tried, but I mean if you imagine the whole of Britain with no museums, no concerts, no ballet and no opera none of these things, then you would be a very impoverished society. We certainly would. One of the tragedies to that it has now become so expensive but is very difficult but not because it was sponsored but somebody told me the other night that the Billy Connolly programme excuse me Billy Connolly programme about art and culture was The Rome one Er yes, I mean Rome. It was very well presented and that whilst Billy Connolly freely admitted he was not in fact a culture vulture, it was his enthusiasm that in a sense having his own that make the programme apparently a complete and utter joy and in a sense that's what sponsorship should do, it should do for art, music, ballet and opera what Cousteau and Bellamy have done for the environment and Attenborough But er well you see but Billy Connolly brought an audience to that programme you would never have got Mm Billy Connolly socialist people all switched on to watch that programme because they like Billy Connolly it. It's like the chap that did the opera, Harry Enfield did a series of opera programmes Yes it was very clever, I watched the first couple because people who like Harry Enfield's comic characters switched on, just to see what he was like and before you knew it you were twenty minutes into a half hour programme and you stuck with it to the end. That's right. And it's m and again it's all about opening things up, it's about putting in erm getting someone like that and all that erm Interpreter Yeah, interpreter's the word, yeah. Er You see to me there's an issue the power is cricket. Now I I'm your least sporting person , but I quite like a good test game and I was in Australia when Packer did the whole thing with what I call Pack a Ball one day cricket. Now I have friends in Melbourne who would never look at, be interested, go to a cricket match in their entire life. Pack a Ball introduced them to cricket. The go to one day games, they like the excitement, oh everything is wonderful. I, I compare test matches to more like the chess game you know it's slower and you sort of you know whatever but these are people who would, did not to test games you know they didn't sort of say okay we've now met this Pack a Ball thing where you know and everything else. When I look at test matches the, the game, the one day game was an itself. Now making these points to and then to go backwards still about what we've been talking about and that is it's the same with the opera and what you were saying about Harry Enfield and everything else, that you can an and Billy Connolly, you can bring certain groups of people into areas where they wouldn't previously have been, but you will not necessarily take them on the next leaf so for example, this is all gonna sound snobby and I'm sorry but you know I mean a lot of people like Gilbert and Sullivan for example , but will not move on to Bizet or whatever it is and will never do that and I mean I have a problem with that I mean it, to me it's not we're not it's just reality, but we have to understand that I mean we have to understand that in the context of sponsorship and about making you know the, the next step on survive. I mean I think you and say that you know I mean I think test matches are simply because you know over time, you know people are in to the one day cricket match, be the excitement and everything else and it's getting increasingly more difficult for television companies to get sponsorship, commercial sponsorship for But the thing that fascinated me last night was the statistic about Gillette do you know they said when Gillette started When Gillette started doing the erm Gillette Cup, it cost them five thousand a year. They pulled out at a point not where the cost they thought wasn't worth it, but they pulled out because people associate and that Nat West's cricket now runs at one point two five million pounds One point two five million Well er and really with the bank's image of being what it is you see I found I cricket really. yeah, I found I found it interesting last night because of course my reaction to all that was imagine how Gillette did it matter? Gillette with, with cricket rather than razor blades, given that when they were in the supermarket Gillette they would say that was it er er a friendly name. No, but no, but obviously no,th the association was only with cricket not with the product, so it wasn't enhancing the initial product So what it is they're saying you see the association wasn't being made it wasn't including sales. I mean there was a superb advert made by film director and he made a superb ad advertisement for Apple Macintosh Computers erm it must have been about three or four years ago. Everybody loved the advert but couldn't tell you who the advert was for. Well there's an increasing number Yeah, people could just switch off and then it Apple Macintosh erm I think with the Gillette decision was part of the Gillette seemed to reposition themselves in advertising to to Wonderful. I mean I erm there was a, I think there was a beer ad on television the other, the other day and at the end of advert they were advertising beer weren't they you know Yes, but you see and that's right, you know whatever it is, the Silk advertisements. Yeah. Because they're becoming so obscure now, that they're becoming an e exercise in erm obscures or obscurity or whatever in the same way into the same appalling state as the annual report disease is becoming a design competition not an annual report presentation of financial figures. Yeah. Gosh I'm getting my, some of my hobby horses in aren't I? Well you're suggesting a back to basics campaign is appropriate here. Absolutely. showing a bit of up Peter. I'm just making an opportunity here Before you get too political you must remember the only time I've been actively political was for an independent candidate. agents, so there you are. Actually, I've only ever been a member of a political party for three months of my life, and I resigned Which one? on principle. The Tories, I resigned on principle when somebody suggested I could join a women's committee and I said I thought Oh God it was absolutely the end They actually do that very well, I believe Tories. And I erm I actually like to discuss back to basics for a while erm on communication perspective i in some of the what's happening at the moment. Do you mean you think the Tory Party needs sponsoring? Oh, that too erm that we are, had, if we are saying that this evening we are looking at communications and different elements of it, I think this is an area which if ever there was an example of how perhaps not to do it how to blow it askew, it's probably the best one we've had in, in decades. Erm I was very, very interested in an interview I heard last weekend I think it was with Pete, when he made the comment that he wasn't interested in back to basics because that was looking backwards a lot of people in the past lived pretty miserable lives. We saw them we should be looking forward. That was the interview with Mr Heath I think earlier on in the week. Was that the one in which he was asked by Ni not Nick , but the News at Ten chap Yes. that wh who in the government would he dispose of and he sat and smiled gently and said well he wouldn't have appointed any of them in the first place. Erm well I mean I think there's some very fundamental issues in all this in, in the communication spectrum first of all using the phrase back to basics, what do people mean by that and that's where the, they, they have gone wrong because the problem is that here we are, four people round this table and I'm sure if all of us were asked what do we mean by getting back to basics, we'll come out with a totally different you know set of things that meanings. Actually erm that's what I was erm I have wanted to ask you so Yes what if, what does the basic m basics mean or basis? Well we need a politician to tell us, because none of us are very clear. It's a very valid question, it really is. What is meant by it and what has happened erm is that people are making, putting an interpretation that back to basics means back to looking at our morals and of course and of course we've always had a different view about what morals are anyway all of us I mean once again if we went round the table and say you know expand on your moral position, I'm sure we would get four probably ten actually different viewpoints. I think you'll probably get . Would you? Possibly yeah, yeah Is that wishful thinking? I think no, I just think that I think that the British people, forget there's people around the table, that the British people are actually pretty sort of liberal and tolerate overall and er I think the problem back to basics was government slogan and they got John Major Mm. and the problem has been that human beings are human beings Mm. and er life is like that and I think that your average omnibus or forty four home tonight are, sometimes you will get married and you have affairs and kids are born out of wedlock. I'm not saying it's right, I'm not saying it's wrong,that's the way it is, that's now let's just get on with it, but we shouldn't saying that Yes I mean issue with illegitimate children or his affair means that I mean even the line he was running is okay because I'm rich so it's not gonna and it's not gonna and so he's got these two sort of values, that if you are a single parent and you're poor that makes you lesser and more immoral than if you were a single parent and you're rich. rough mm. Mm? But in fact back to basics to me is rather like my kind of personal creed. Were you in that meeting the last meeting before Christmas when we did the talking round the tables? Mm. I missed that For me back to basics is how I find most of the time to run my own life, which is there are two teams and on the one hand there's compassion, integrity and courage Yes. That's a and on the other side there's callousness insensitivity and cant I love that word cant Yeah, but you know when you I mean when you feel sick, you remember the sick and it's C I C against C I C and you just have to remember because in fact courage, compassion and integrity can actually help you to deal or to try to deal more or less successively with any circumstance. Mm. For me I cannot remember who said it, someone far wiser than far wiser than me but somebody said a judge is civilization by the way he treats the Oh yeah, that's right, true you know and that's right because it's special and I, I really think that you know the U K and perhaps we can world some countries like Sweden and so on because of the high taxation have been able to keep their but even they had a problem and this is more deeper more philosophical, but I mean I, I really feel that sweep out the streets, something has gone badly wrong and, and that an effect not just to those individuals, but greater fabric. Oh, but then that gets you back to rever to sponsorship would actually Scottish Power do more good for its image with the whole of the population if it sponsored a hostel or a care caravan or a soup kitchen? Well that, I mean that or go back right coming to patronizing the Yeah, I mean I saw something interesting last night About to get back in terms of the people that wouldn't sponsor right Mm I mean community groups were part of it th they didn't sponsor those, they did sponsor individuals, I mean it's interesting because example that in sponsoring individuals and teams example involve them sponsored by Nike on drug charges and sign their interviewed about his drug charges Nike T-shirt on and so he said that you know one of their criteria was, criteria was not sponsoring individuals. And I mean what is Scottish Opera but a group of individuals. I mean I er er I mean I just don't know how you, you begin and end with this actually I mean I really don't and I mean I think quite frankly if Hydro Electric were to go out and say okay, we will fund the purchase of twenty houses four bedrooms each for the homeless right I would have thought in terms of doing something I mean I walk round Princes Street and I see those poor sods and I say to myself Why? why? We live in this civilized society. I, I don't know about you three, I would be prepared to pay an extra penny in my tax or whatever to make sure those poor sods are not in that street. which is, which is by and large, by and large has broader liberal Oh yes. mean you know that that would give the chance erm . Do you know one or two of my friends castigated me two years ago for taking food to somebody who was sleeping in the gardens. I went into the gardens one Sunday morning with the dog found a body in a sleeping bag and I really didn't know whether I thought it was alive or not alive so I went rather closer and I got a very defensive angry stare from a young man and I said to him I'm not going to ask you to move, because you've probably got nowhere to go, my real concern is are you okay. You know given that life is as it is are you okay and he said yes so I went round the gardens and I came back to him and I had a friend coming for lunch and I thought this is ridiculous, I'm going to have something to drink and I'm going to have a meal so I made him an enormous great wad of cheese sandwiches and some apples and a piece of cake and some biscuits and a cup of tea and I went downstairs with the milk and the sugar and cup of tea and all this stuff and I went into the gardens and this poor child he looked very defensively a second time and I said well I thought you might like some breakfast and I wrapped the second lot up so if you've nothing later on, why not put it in your pocket and eat later in the day and I didn't know whether you took milk or sugar, so I thought I'd better just ask you and do you know I thought he was going to cry. There's an interesting point in there. Isn't it amazing? Mm. He was a Scotsman depending San Francisco and er situation that what you described but we were handing out food at Christmas Eve to people and people were coming up and er for their own proud they were saying things like I'm a vegetarian or I don't eat cheese pasties that was the case that was the only thing you had left but I mean it makes me really angry that we did not have this situation ten or twelve years ago. That's right, but, but you know that it's only the, are only one of the major supermarket chains that gives money to organization and one of the organizations in Glasgow there was an article in the Scotsman or the Herald the other day and I mustn't quote names because I can be wrong, but one of them and there were major s major stores selling food as well as actual food retailers cited, but only one of them will give food that's past its sell-by date or surplus or whatever for one of the Glasgow charities for the homeless. Now that seems to me quite extraordinary Well if you remember what it is, let me know and I'll buy the shopping from them and that is an influence for me. It really is I mean I I still feel guilty and it might sound daft to you, but I still feel guilty and what would my have done about I was down in London a few weeks ago for a meeting and I was coming back on the sleeper and I got the train to Euston and erm I came out at the wrong spot, so I had to walk out of Euston Underground and then round to go to Euston Station rather than going through There's a park when it's a beautiful area. and up the steps out of the underground there was this lass there and I, I can't help it I mean I'm always aware of the fact of having this twenty five year old child, so offspring and there was a girl roughly about his age or slightly younger and she was grey you know that translucent look your skin gets when you're not eating properly you know that grey sort of pallor and I had an overnight bag in one hand and a briefcase and a handbag in the other and I remember I walked past her and she was begging and I had gone to the sleeper and I'm sitting there and I'm thinking you bleep bleep bleep bleep bleep bleep bleep bleep, you could of put briefcase down, overnight bag down, handbag down and got some money out. Now okay you know the, you know the one person you can't do anything for but it's the way this lass looked you know and then about a week after that I'm in Princes Street and I always try and er you know buy the, the Issues Mm Issue. Well it's just been extraordinarily successful er and I know I interrupted what you're saying, think it's been successful because are beginning to care again Yes, which is fabulous. They've got the opportunity to do something Just super. But anyway I gave, it's fifty P I gave the lass who was selling it a pound you see and she said here you are waiting to give me my change, I said no, no and she said and I said to her I said you know you need it more than I do and she she got tears in her eyes and I I thought I mean I I don't know if I can articulate this properly. I just don't Hello. Hello. Do have a seat, right what shall we do with you today? I seem to have done something silly with my shoulder, it's awfully stiff and Which one? This one. Right, but you can't think what? Well we were at a venture park on er Sunday and I reckon I probably did something on one of the rides without realizing it. No. Cos it came on sort of about middle of the day. Right, you haven't been from anything, or pulling anything too hard or? N other than carry my daughter, Mm. since she's a bit of lump nowadays. Now, you don't need to take anything off. Can you lift it up, right up? Yeah. Pretty good, can you get it behind your, get your hand behind your neck? Turn it ro er okay. Can y Can't feel it can you turn it round and get it behind your back? Can you put your hand behind your back like that? Turn it round. Good okay. Can you, can you actually do that? Can you swing it right round so you can do that? Y yeah I can. You're not allowed to use that one . Okay, good. Okay. So you've got a good range of movement, okay. Yes , yeah. What happens if you lift something or pull something? I get a sharp stabbing pain. If I'm br even Yeah. when I'm breathing, Yeah, I can feel it in my, in my Yeah,okay just relax. What I'm going to do is to examine now I'm going to go up the collar bone first over the shoulder pad,T-shirt with a shoulder pad . I know, they went out with the ark, didn't they? You okay over there? Yeah. Over the top? Good that's fine. Are you okay with the front of the joint, in there? Yeah. Yeah. It's only in articulate areas, I in the side of the joint there? Is that okay? It feels a bit tender, but Yeah. it's okay, yeah. Well yeah. Over the top? Yeah that's fine. Under there? Yeah. Now if I come round, just sit forward slightly for me, that's right. If I come round the shoulder blade muscles, round there. Anything? No. If I was to sort of pinch the muscle at the back here? If you can find it, that's huge muscle. Is that tender at all? No. Okay, can you point to where you get most discomfort? Right, in Oh. the centre there. Right in there? Oh okay. Mm. Is that tender to press in there? Oh yes. Yes. Is that hurting there? Yes. . That's fine. I'm . Now this isn't your s shoulder directly, but it is the muscles that hold and support and turn the shoulder blade, and of course whenever you do anything with your shoulder the shoulder blade moves with it. So it will tend to pull and it almost definitely is either reaching or pulling or holding something or holding on for your life, So I've just strained something? venture park. Yeah. It's Yeah. a muscle pull. But the trouble is with muscle pulls, they heal fairly slowly. They tend to get worse over a fe over a few days, before they start to get better as well. But it will improve, and the important thing is, pain relief if necessary, because you must keep your shoulder moving. If you keep your shoulder still, because it doesn't hurt so much, it'll tend to seize up like a rusty Mm. gate. Practise first thing in the morning. So ke that's right, so keep it moving, and the shoulder needs to be, to be able to go all the way up, all the way round, back you know, it's a very mobile joint. Yeah. But nothing serious though. Good. So I can write it's a lower full range of movement , mobilize. That's the important phrase, and if you find it's easier to keep it mobile if you've taken some paracetamol or aspirin, then by all means do that. Right. Would it be possible to find out what Priscilla's results were because she's had a urine test and she's extremely sore and they've asked for another urine test, and I'm That's right. a little bit concerned. Wh we hav we haven't grown any bugs, but we have found red blood cells and er white blood cells there which are the sort of blood cells you get in wee if there's been informatio inflammation or infection round. So it points towards an infection but it doesn't prove it. Waterworks infections in kids are actually very very important to identify because they all need investigating. Right. Is there anything else that I can do for her cos she says she is in quite a lot of discomfort at the moment. Stacks and stacks to drink. The more dilute the urine, the less it'll irritate, sting and burn. And it'll tend to flush things through. But we must have another sample, and we we Yeah. don't want the first wee of the mor We don't want the first one in the morning. Ah. Any, any other one. So let her empty her bladder after it's been sitting there overnight, and then a nice fresh sample. As long as it gets here before Ah right. half ten. The first one in the morning often has all sorts of rubbish in. It tends to be rather concentrated and isn't really the one we want. That's probably why we had trouble last time. Well maybe, yes. Okay have you got a fresh bottle? I have yes, Okay. That's that. Right, okay, thank you very much. Not at all, we'll see what happens with her, but the sooner we get that the sooner we can take things on if we need to. Lovely Okay? Thank you very much for your help. Not at all. If you have further problems, pop back. Right, thanks. See you. Bye. Hello Dorothy. The s it isn't Dorothy, it's me. Oh sorry Joan, I'm sorry. I do apologize, I really do apologize for that. It's Oh ta. Doctor, we're now, Doctor , we now have no appointments for the rest of the week. Would you maybe do a surgery on Thursday morning? Oh aye, aye, sure. Instead of going out with . Would be a, be quite a few calls, but we'll just maybe have to try and I don't know what we'll do. to clear the surgery. Whether we'll have to take them off Thursday now, put them forward to Wednesday. There's o a couple of erm p poor blood counts, but Alan reckons they don't need done. So Aye. you know Yeah. just put it in for Thursday morning, see what Yeah, sure. Aye. Aye. More work for Thursday, yes, no problem. Right thank you Doctor Good morning. Morning Doctor . Now then. Busy place this morning Och yes. Oh yes. Keeps us out of mischief. Keeps us out of mischief. what can I do for you? My due in today, Doctor. Lot of kids in this morning. Is there a lot of wee bugs? School. The school holidays. Aye. It's always, always the same. Lot of wee bugs going about? Yeah. I'll get my prescription when I'm here too Doctor. Mhm. I've cut myself, know how I was twenty? And I've cut myself down to one. Aye. And my Tamacipan Mhm. Well, Bill's er got that patch he was trying to stop smoking and he wasn't sleeping at night, you know. So I gave him half of mine, half of it, you know how it's a tablet now? Yes. I've been giving him half of it. And he's I'll give him I'll give him something to get a good sleep. Aye, he, I mean he's been doing quite well, cos that's George usually smoked you know? And The patches are great. Aye. He only bought three weeks. Mhm. Then he bought the chewing gum. Mhm. Mm. It was my wee, my wee granddaughter that got through to him. I mean he wouldn't listen to anybody else, and she said one day, papa you er you give me a cough with that smoking. He's the only one in the family that smokes. And it gets in your hair and it gets in your clothes, she must have been listening to the television. Yeah. Oh aye. So it was him who sh I think it got, how it got through to him. Oh yeah . I was just, I was hearing the other day that somebody had smoked sixty a day Aye. and didn't make any difference until her best friend went into hospital for a heart operation. And that . Stopped it. Aye. Stopped it dead. It's great what can just move you, isn't it? Yes, oh aye, it's Oh I had an awful last couple of days. See those very wet days last week? I would be sitting then I get up and this pain would come through me ankle, right into this p remember I fell down the stairs, and this always was the weak bit? It goes right into there, and I was staggering all day, you know when I would get up? So obviously she doesn't . I just take a couple of paracetamol. Ah that's, yes that's right. And just keep going. Aye. And just keep going. Keep going. There we are. when you're it's not so bad sat down. It's not so bad. That's right. When you sit down for a wee while. And you go to up And you Doctor I know the feeling. I know the feeling only too well. Can I just get my Tryptophan Oh oh you need some Tryptophan as well? Aye, and the Carisamol Excuse me. Eh. Tryptophan Doctor. There we are now. Good have you given me something for the ? Yes, aye. Put it put it on there. And that'll keep him right, Oh well. keep him out of mischief. Er he doesn't pay for his, he's a pensioner now. I'll send away Is he? for my, I've go I've got my I send away my thing. Aye, aye I sh I would hope so. It's due to go. It's due to go again. In fact Ah. I'll do it today. Yeah, put that in today. And I'll not put that prescription in till Right. that's fine. Okay. Okay. Away and look after him. Thanks very much. Right. Thank you. Cheerio now. Bye bye. I'll wait till one or two people are here before I start. Sure, do an hour anyway. Yes, yeah, oh it's quite like old days, isn't it at L S E, with the police outside, and a riot on. It brings a tear to my eye. Mind you, it's not, I mean, I thought that black demonstration was pathetic. D did you see it? I mean, you know, when I was student at L S E, you know, the front of the, of the demonstration was down at the Law Courts, the back was still in, at, at er, Oxford Street, or something, you know. We had real demos. But there we are. What's happening now, does anybody know? They're what? Are they trying to occupy the Well, I wonder how many more are coming? It's five past, at least it is by my watch. Yes, cos a lot of people are out in Are they? Right. So we'll have to carry on well, we'll carry on regardless, okay. Is there a handout from last week? Yes sorry there is. Erm, yes, you're quite right, here we are. Just getting to that. There's the summary of last week's, okay if you can pass those round. And while I'm focusing the overhead, this is the er, this is a postcard that er, a student did this course some years ago, sent me from the U S. Freud, the barber so how's your mother, he's asking the guy in the chair. Nearly as bad as singing at you isn't it? Okay, now erm, today as you realize with feelings of immense relief is the last lecture of the term, so, so what I'm gonna do, is to start talking about the er, so called black books of Freud, the set texts in this, in this course and I'm gonna start talking today about the first, and in some ways, one of the most important of these, Totem and Taboo, and since it's the last lecture of term, and you probably all forget what I said over the Christmas holiday, and won't be able to recall it afterwards, through the alcoholic haze, er what I thought I'd do today, was talk about Totem and Taboo in the way in which it looked backwards rather than forwards. Totem and Taboo as we'll see is a key book, not only in terms Freud's writings on social sciences, but in Freud's development. And it, kind of faces both ways, it, it looks back to the early period of the development of Freud's thought that we've already spoken about, and its beginnings back in the eighteen nineties, and in certain other respects, it looks forward, to the kind of revolution that was going to occur after World War Two. What I've called in my book, Essential Freud, the Second Psychoanalytic er Revolution. So, it, it's in many ways a, a book that, that looks two ways, as it were, back and, and forward. And what I want to do today is to talk about Totem and Taboo rather more as it looks back, than as it looks forward, and not just to, to the past in Freud, but to the past in other respects, as you will see. But first of all this phrase that I used, to introducing it of Serge Mo ., the black books of Freud. Moscavisi, is a leading French social psychologist, which those of you doing, em, social psychology or the social representations course, will hear about. And in his book, er, The Age of the Crowd, Moscavisi refers to what he calls the black books of Dr Freud. Now, what has he got in mind? And, and why are they black? Well, what he has in mind are those very books which are the core of our course, that is Freud's writings on social sciences, religion, society, morality, social philosophy, that, that kind of thing. That's what he means by the black books of Freud. But why are they black? Why should they be denigrated? Well, Moscavisi's argument, and I must say, I agree with him, is that they tended to be denigrated by both groups who might have taken the biggest interest in them. They'd been denigrated by the clinical psycho anal analysts who have followed after Freud, and used Freudian therapy, because they're non-therapeutic. These are er, books which these, these are books which do not directly concern, therapeutic applications of psychoanalysis, and as a result, many psychoanalysts who have been very fervent in projecting a kind of medical image for psychoanalysis, have tended to regard them as diversions at best, and at worst as, rather er regrettable eccentricities on the part of Freud. Do you want a handout, Ben? So, for these people, the clinical psychoanalysts, the black books haven't been very interesting, or they've been actually distracting. One of them, for example, that we'll be looking next term, Freud's biography, co-written with Bullitt, on Woodrow Wilson, was called, in one of the major reviews, when it finally came out in nineteen sixty seven, the kind of thing that gets psychoanalysis a bad name. That's how one of the psychoanalytic reviewers referred to that book. So, so this group, the clinical psychoanalysts, haven't really been, been interested in this, in this kind of writing. The other group of people who you might have thought, ought to have taken them up and been interested in them, was the wider field of social science, er, writers after all, social scientists, ought to be interested in these, in these books because they're about social science. Again, there's been an astonishing neglect, not so much I, I have to point out in fairness, of Totem and Taboo, as we'll see. Totem and Taboo's been pretty notorious. But putting Totem and Taboo on one side, and as we'll see, it's not really an exception, but in general, most of these books, have been quite astonishingly ignored. I take, take a summary from there. One of the best examples of that is,a book dating from nineteen twenty, Group Psychology and the Anal Analysis of the Psychology of the Ego. You might think that, that's a book that social scientists ought to be primarily interested in. But in fact, if you look through bibliographies and citations in the literature, you find it's hardly ever cited, and when it is cited, people seldom if ever, seemed to refer to what Freud er says in it, let alone take any notice of it. If you look at something like the Institute for Group Psychotherapy in London, it's founded on other writings than Freud's writings on Group Psychology. That's one that they seem to ignore er, rather systematically. So social science has tended to ignore Freud's books, but of course, it hasn't been able to forget about Freud. And where Freud has been integrated with, with the social sciences, interestingly enough, what's been integrated is not the black books so much as Freud's writings on child development and other issues, apart from those in these books. To take one of the most outstanding examples mentioned by Bob Bocock in one of his books, I forget which one it is now, but in one of his books, Bob Bocock er, mentions that the doyen of mid-twentieth century sociology, Talker Parsons, who some of you perhaps may never of heard of, but er, you certainly would have done in the sixties and seventies, because he really was the major fi figure in Anglo-American social theory. Talker Parsons, says Bocock, draws heavily on Freud, quite consciously, I mean, he says he's gonna integrate Freud in his unification of social, social thought, so he's completely explicit about drawing on Freud, and yet says Bocock, if you look at the works of Freud, on which Parsons draws, they are mainly his works on child development and clinical psychology. Parsons seldom, if ever mentions the so- called black books, let alone takes any notice of what they, what they say. So even when you get a figure, a major figure, not a peripheral one, a central, major figure, in social sciences, like Talker Parsons, who really does take Freud seriously, what does he do? He treats Freudian psychology as a socialization theory. He doesn't pay very much attention to the content of these books that we're looking at in this course. So, so are the kind of reasons why Moscavisi calls them the black books. They're the side of Freud, that has tended to be ignored, even by the people you would've expected to take the greatest notice of them. If you ask in general, why social science has been in so selective in its use of Freud, and so one-sided in its interpretation, the answer seems to be, that since the nineteen twenties and up until very recently, Western social science has been primarily dominated by what I would call, cultural determinism, and by that I mean, a school of thought which believes that, to use a term borrowed from one of its founding fathers, Emile Durkheim, social facts have social causes. In other words, if you want to explain social phenomena, you got to look for the explanations in society. And cultural determinism is the idea that they way people think and act, is largely determined by their culture, their upbringing, their socialization, their home environment, peer group pressure, this kind of thing, and is not to be looked for in natural causes, in their genes, for example, or in individual psychological experience, as was the prime focus of Freud in psychoanalysis. So the result is that, where people did take notice of Freud, and here Talker Parsons is the prime example, they interpreted Freud as if he too were a cultural determinist. And in a minute, we'll see the prime example of that, or one of the prime examples of that. So social scientists interpreted him as a cultural determinist? Yes they did. But, but Freud Well, I, I agree. I mean, how could you do this? I, I'm as astonished as you are, erm, the, the way in which people like Talker Parsons did it was, they regarded these basic er, personal psychological drives as a kind of putty, that could then be moulded by social pressure. For example, Parsons explicitly says that, that the drives of the id are socially moulded in the sense that, the forms in which they express themselves are the result of socialization. I agree with you, this is an astonishing kind of re-interpretation of Freud, but it's, but it's the one that was produced. I'll give a, a further example of that later in the lecture. Now, if with, with that in mind, you then turn and look at Totem and Taboo, which was published in nineteen thirteen, first as a series of essays, then as a single book. In other words, just on the eve of World War One. If you read Totem and Taboo, and I, by the way I do expect all of you er to read it, because it is one of the set er books, and one of the things I'm not gonna do in these lectures on the black books, is to tell you what the book says, and just kind of repeat it in the lecture. I mean this is a waste of my time, it, it should be a waste of your time, if you're gonna read the book, and we've already had both classes on Totem and Taboo. And I must say, I was impressed, I thought the, the presentations were excellent in both classes and we covered a lot of the material very well, I thought. So I'm not gonna waste everybody's time by just saying, you know, Freud said this, and Freud said that. I'm going to er, talk about them, rather than, rather than repeat them. Now, when you read Totem and Taboo, one of the things you may notice, particularly if you've read more recent anthropological social science literature, is that it seems very old fashioned. There's something rather out of date about the whole style of the book. It's not the kind of book which you would find being written today, by psychologists, or anthropologists, or social scientists in general. There's something rather dated er, about it. And the reason for this, is that it belongs to a tradition, a fashion if you like, of writing, which went dramatically out of, out of fashion immediately after World War One. So, at the time, when it was published, most readers would have regarded it as completely up to date in its, in its style and in its presentation. So it wouldn't have struck anybody in nineteen thirteen as in any way dated. On the contrary, it would've seemed a very, very up to date, state of the art, kind of book. Unfortunately, that kind of writing went out of fashion almost instantly, and certainly in the nineteen twenties and thirties, was replaced by a completely different tradition, which has er, influenced our expectations and perhaps explains why the book seems so old fashioned. In fact, it belongs to a, a great tradition of anthropological writing, represented by people like Sir James Frazer, who was, he was the kind of Talker Parsons of British anthropology prior to World War One. James Frazer was a Cambridge anthropologist, who wrote er, a number of books, most notably, The Golden Bough, an enormous er, volume, I think it runs to, to thirteen volumes. One of the few things, erm, that I'm really proud of about myself, is that I've read all of them. Erm, mainly out of perversity, I do admit, because I must be the only social scientist of my generation who's read all of them from cover to cover. Erm, but er, it is a very long book, and er, it, it, it is a masterpiece, and if you were to read The Golden Bough, or any part of it, or any other work of Frazer's for that matter, you would immediately be reminded of Totem and Taboo, because Frazer's method is comparative. It's a great work of comparative sociology. What Frazer does is to take, in the case of The Golden Bough, rituals and myths, and aspects of folk lore, from this society and that society, all over the world, and compare them to each other. And his work is informed by a vast reading, and numerous personal contacts, with cultures throughout the world. So on one page, you'll be reading about what Africans do in Upper Volta, and on the next page, you'll be reading about what the ancient Aztecs did that is similar. And on, in the next paragraph there'll be something on the Maoris, and on the next one something on the Australian Aborigines, and so on. This is one of the things that makes the book so long. It's full of descriptive material. Page after page, after page, after page, of descriptive material, drawn from all over the world, both published accounts, which Frazer drew on, erm, with er, kind of er, encyclopedic knowledge, but also a lot of personal contacts which he had with people like missionaries, er, colonial administrators, and even er, local people who would with descriptions and er, and facts about the things he was, he was researching. The result was that Frazer was astonishingly well informed about cultures throughout the world, without ever having visited one of them. He was, er, what was to be, er, rather patronizingly called, an armchair anthropologist. He was one of these comparative anthropologists, he wasn't the kind of anthropologist that goes out and lives with er, primitive people for several years, and then comes back and writes an account of them. That kind of anthropological writing was to become very fashionable after World War One, and was to be made into something of a fet fetish, by people like Bronoslaw Melanovski, here at L S E, Margaret , er, to quote the worst case, er,an an and others. And as I said, it, it was er, it, it, it, it was, it was denigrated but it had its own strengths, and the Margaret case er, is, is one of them. As you probably know, Margaret perpetrated a huge fraud, I mean, there's no other word for what she did. She may not have consciously intended all of it, but huge fraud it was, because she purported to give a picture which in, in her own words was, er forever true, that's a direct quote, er forever true, of Samoa, which we know, er, was not at all true. In fact, Margaret 's account of Samoa was based on interviews through an interpreter, with twenty five adolescent girls, in the back room of the U S Navy er, dispensary, er, on the main island of Samoa during a time when there was considerable anti-American er, feeling. never lived with the Samoans after the first week. She tried it for a week, and then, then went to live with the Americans, and said the food was too fattening. She writes about adolescence among Samoan boys, but we know from examining her field notes, she never inter interviewed one Samoan boy. Her knowledge of Samoa was based upon what a group of adolescent girls thr told her, through an interpreter, and what can only be called, er, chit-chat and gossip that she picked up from missionaries' wives and people like this. The, the problem was of course, this was a culture where adolescent girls do not contradict important American ladies who are talking to them through interpreters. So when Margaret said to them, er, well you don't know anything about rape, do you? They said no, Miss , and when she said to them, you never think about rape do you, they said, no Miss , the thought never entered our head. Derek who exposed the fraud, took the trouble of consulting the police records, for Samoa, at the time when Margaret , was there, and although Margaret claimed there was no rape in Samoa, because children were brought up so nicely, in this kind of, tropical paradise that she, that she portrayed in the book, the fact is, according to the police records, there were more rapes in Samoa, while Margaret , than were occurring in New York at the time was writing, during the nineteen eighties and New York has one of the highest rate, sorry rape rates in the world. So, when I say fraud, I mean it. Somebody like James Frazer wouldn't have let Margaret get away with that. I mean, James Frazer would have read her novel, cos I think that's all you can call it, Coming of Age in Samoa, because it's mainly fictional, he would've read her novelistic account, and then he would have compared it with other accounts, which had been published in German and other languages, and accounts of, of Samoans themselves, and he would have said, look there's something wrong here. There're tremendous discrepancies between what Margaret and what these other people say. Frazer would have known about that, so although he was a much despised armchair anthropologist, at least, he didn't rely on the say-so of a single anthropologist, who claimed to pay paint a picture, forever true. So although Frazer was doing a kind of anthropology that was later to be rather dis despised, it had something to be said for it. And in the German tradition of, of psychology, it's worth pointing out that Willhelm who those of you who are reading psychology I'm sure have, have heard of, er, Willhelm was a kind of er, slightly older contemporary of Freud's, and I daresay you've heard of him, as the founder of modern scientific psychology. He, he opened the world's first psychological laboratory in the University of Leipzig, some time in the eighteen eighties, I think I'm right in saying. Willhelm is projected as the founding father of modern experimental laboratory based psychology. But the fact is that spent most of his life, and most of his writings on an enormous work, even longer than the Golden Bough, er called the Welker Psychologie or Folk Psychology, and this enormous work, it's in twenty three volumes or something, er, of, of, the Welker Psychologie is just like James Frazer's writing and indeed Totem and Taboo. It's er, a work of comparative, er folk, folk lore and folk psychology. And these were the very works, The Golden Bough,Welker Psychologie which Freud's contemporaries would have been reading in English and German. So, when Freud's Totem and Taboo appeared in nineteen thirteen, it would have instantly been compared with these, and that is the genre of er, anthropological writing in which it, it would of been immediately been at home. So at the time, as I said, it would have seemed a perfectly conventional piece of work, even if to a later generation, like ours, it now seems rather old fashioned. Now, as we saw in the, in the, when we discussed this in the class, the central theme of Totem and Taboo, is, is what you might call, to use a, a psychoanalytic jargon term, ambivalence. Ambivalence was a, a term coined in about nineteen O five, by the Swiss psychiatrist,, and it was taken up particularly by psychoanalysis, and as a psychoanalytic term, it means the co-existence of contradictory thoughts, feelings or emotions about the same thing. Typically, co-existence of feelings of love and hate. And as we saw when we discussed the book, Freud gives a number of examples of ambivalence, and the taboos to which they give rise. Taboo is a Polynesian word, and it means some kind of supernatural law or prohibition which you infringe at your supernatural peril. If you infringe a taboo something terrible will, will happen to you. But if you had to explain why you have to obey the taboo, you would probably find it very, very difficult in the, in the sense that, taboo prohibitions are not like legal rational ones. If you ask somebody what's the explanation for a fact you may have noticed if you walked down the Strand here just from the School, if you're observant, I'm sure you've, you've all instantly noticed as you walked by, that Strand Street, which is a short street that, sorry, I'm, Savoy Street, which is a short street that leads off the Strand into the Savoy Hotel, is an exception to the rule, that in England you drive on the left, because in Stra in Savoy Street, you drive on the right. And you may say, well why is this? Is this just an aberration, if you look at the road markings, you'll see it seems to be official, cos the road is marked out for driving on the right, and the reason is that er, traffic law in this country says, that vehicles drive on the left, except in Savoy Street. And that is the one street in the, in the whole country, where legally, you are obliged to drive on the other side. And the reason is, it's for the benefit of taxis, cos, everybody knows, that London taxi drivers are above the law. If you've ever driven around London you immediately notice this. These guys do anything, you know, U turns in the middle of anywhere, they, they can do it, you can't. Well if you do it, they just shout at you. It's so they can open the door behind them, the passengers getting in on that side of the road. That has to be the reason. I, I knew, I, I knew that it was because the, that the taxi cabs had insisted, but now told us the reason. Alright, now we know. That, that's a rational law, okay, it's nothing to do with a taboo, there's not some strange supernatural principle which says, in Savoy Street you drive on the other side, and if you don't you'll be struck down with a fever or ill luck or something like that. It's a rational, legal principle, okay. Now that is not a taboo. A taboo is quite different. A taboo is something you can't justify or explain, or rationalize as existing for the convenience of taxi drivers. A taboo is something beyond reason and as we saw, what Freud does in the book is compare it with neurotic prohibitions which are kind of personal taboos, and in fact the sub-title of the book is some points of agreement between the mental lives of savages and neurotics. And the principal point of agreement is the agreement between the neurotic prohibition, which like the taboo, is something that the neurotic cannot bring themselves to do, fears for the consequences if they do do it, and er, feels constrained by some irrational force er, to obey, even though it isn't rational. And as we saw, Freud compares these, and explains taboos and neurotic prohibitions as a means of dealing with ambivalence. Well now, I'll come back to the whole question of ambivalence, er, next term, when I discuss, the what is really the central issue of the book apart from ambivalence, which is the incest question. I'm saving that, that for next, next term, so I won't say anything about incest now. What I want to go on to discuss in the, in the last part of the lecture is another way in which Freud's work looks, looks backwards, or seems to look backwards. And that is, that it seems to look back to the writings of Darwin. And this is the other aspect of Freud's debt to Darwin which I mentioned at the beginning but said I would hold over for later. I said, if you remember, in the opening lectures, that in many ways, Freud continues the tradition of Darwin's own writing in psychology, and I explained why earlier. But I said there was another important aspect to this I would mention later, and now we've reached that point, and I'll explain what it is. In the closing er, pages of the, of the book, Freud draws on a suggestion of Darwin's, which is that, in the beginning, human beings lived in what Freud calls primal hoard,and the primal hoard social structure is one that Darwin had observed in many mammals. Today we'd call it a one male group, it's a social structure in which we have a single dominant male, a harem of females and im sexually immature young. What's lacking from such groups, is mature,s sexually mature er males apart from the dominant male. There's only ever one. And the reason there's only ever one, is that dominant male will not tolerate the presence of other males and drives them out. So females are retained in these groups, but males are driven out by the dominant male, whom Freud called the primal father. Now Freud, in trying to the explain the origins of ambivalence about incest, suggests the apparently preposterous and farfetched idea, that in the beginning, human beings lived in these kinds of primal hoards, and er, there was no incest prohibition as such. There was no taboo on incest, any constraints that did exist on hu on human beings' mating preferences were dictated by the primal fathers. He had all the women and nobody else had them. There came a day, said Freud, the sons in frustration, rose up against the primal father, murdered him, ate him, in a grisly act of cannibalism, raped the mothers and sisters, and then having gratified the positive side of, of the negative side of their ambivalence, about the primal father, their hate for him, their desire to supplant him, and so on, were left with the positive side unsatisfied. Because you see said Freud, they wanted to be like him. They wanted to emulate him, and do what he was doing, and enjoy his privileges, and they kind of admired him for what he was having and they wanted. They were ambivalent about him. And having destroyed him, it was this other side of the ambivalence that came back to haunt them as a sense of guilt and deferred obedience, and out of guilt, they instituted the incest, the incest prohibition. Now, I don't really want to talk about the details of that now, I want to come back to that next term when I talk about incest. The one thing that I do want to talk about here, however, in some detail because it's important, is how Freud thinks that this matters to an analysis of modern feelings and attitude to incest. And Freud's answer is that it matters because human beings have inherited this guilt from the primal crime. In other words, we have innate feelings of guilt, about er, parricide and murder because we've inherited them from our ancestors in the distant past. This raises the fraught topic of Freud's Lamarckism. Okay what is Lamarckism? Well Lamarckism is named after er, Jean Baptiste Antoine de Monet, better known to us as Lamarck, and the, the prime notion of Lamarckism, according in Darwin, let's try and get that over there a bit more is evolution by will. This is a quote from Darwin erm, summarizing Lamarck,if an animal, for the satisfaction of its needs, makes repeated efforts to lengthen its tongue, it will acquire a considerable length. E G, anteater woodpecker. If it requires to seize anything with the same organ, its tongue will then divide and become forked . Needless to say, Darwin thought this was, this was nonsense. The, the other aspect, of what Darwin understood by Lamarckism was progressivism. Here's Darwin saying in a letter to a friend Heaven forfend me from Lamarck nonsense of a tendency to progression and indeed, Darwin's view was the contrary to this, and here's another quote from Darwin,after long reflection, I cannot avoid the conviction that no innate tendency to development exists . So this is what Darwin and everybody of his time understood by Lamarckism. Evolution by will and progressivism. The idea that organisms were constantly being perfected. The idea was, why has a giraffe got a long neck? Well, the answer is, giraffes tried to eat food on higher branches of trees, strained upwards, and as they strained they stretched their necks and they passed on their stretched necks to their, to their descendants. This was a way of perfecting the giraffe. Well, this is not Darwin's theory of course, and today, we know erm, that this is in fact total nonsense. However, when people talk about Freud's Lamarckism, they don't mean this. The problem is, the term Lamarckism has changed its meaning in the course of this century, and now Lamarckism, if you say Lamarckism to most educated people, the first thing they normally think of, is not evolution by will, or, or progressivism, but inheritance of acquired characteristics. Lamarckism assumed that as an animal developed a longer neck or bigger muscles or something like that, through practice, it could pass these on to its, to its progeny. Acquired characteristics could be, could be inherited. The musical genius of the Bach family for instance, which was so noticeable, that in that part of Germany where the Bachs lived, the word Bach which actually means brook, started to mean musician, because there were so many of them, er, that kind of inheritance of musical ability, was often explained in the past, as inheritance of acquired characteristics. The idea was if you work hard at learning music, your children will kind of be born with, with an innate erm, capacity for it. And er, of course, today we know that this is nonsensical, you cannot er, inherit acquired characteristics. The point is, this was not known, when Freud was writing Totem and Taboo. At least it wasn't known to, to very many people at that time. It certainly wasn't known to Darwin. And Darwin explicitly did believe, in the inheritance of acquired characteristics. Darwin did not understand the principles of er, genetics. Erm, they had been discovered by Mendel but they remained more or less unnoticed until the beginning of this century, when they were independently rediscovered. And it wasn't till considerably later that the modern doctrine associated with er Weismann of the distinction between what Weismann called the germ line, and the, and the body was fully established. What Weismann realized was that nothing that happens to your body can be translated back into your genes as it were. When Weismann first put it forward at the beginning of the century, it was highly controversial, and most scientists did not believe it. The reason they didn't believe it is that up, up until then practically everybody believed in the inheritance of acquired characteristics. Weismann actually carried out an experiment. He bred mice, and every generation he chopped their tails off, and then bred from the tailless mice for dozens of generations, and of course, they were still being born with tails. Erm Isaac Azimov writes er, rather amusingly about this, he says why did, why did Weismann bother, he said Weismann was Jewish, of course, Weismann knew that since time immemorial, er, Jewish little boys have been having their foreskins chopped off, Weismann only had to look at his own children, when they were born, to see that even Jewish little boys are born with foreskins. And of course, they are. Well, it's a, it's a, it's a case I suppose of, of science revealing the obvious, but er, of, of course it's a fact today, we know why it's a fact. Today we know that, that er genes, er give rise to the organism, the experience of the organism cannot be translated back into genes. The one fact in particular shows that's totally impossible. If you're female, although not, not if you're male, all your genes were copied before you're born. In the case of er, female mammals, their D N A is copied while they're still an embryo. So if you're a woman, all the genes you hand on to your children were copied before you yourself were born, in the precursors of your egg cells. So nothing that happens to you in the course of your life can possibly change your genes, because they've already been copied. Admittedly men produce er, erm, sex cells all the time, but again, there's no evidence whatsoever to suggest that any experience a man has can be copied into his genes as it were. So although we know this today, very few people knew it in nineteen thirteen, and er, nobody knew it before the turn of the century. So when people talk about Freud's Lamarckism, they're not talking about what Darwin and Freud understood as Lamarckism, evolution by will, with progressive improvement, what they're talking about is what everybody believed to be true, the inheritance of acquired characteristics. For example, Darwin er, remarks, and here I quote,even in the first edition of the Origin of Species, I distinctly stated that great weight must be attributed to the inherited effects of use and disuse, with respect both to the body and the mind . In the Descent of Man, published in eighteen seventy one, he says some intelligent actions, as when birds on oceanic islands first learn to avoid man, after being performed during many generations, become converted into instincts and are inherited. The vocal or organs , says Darwin,would have been strengthened and perfected through the principle of the inherited effects of use . Again some instincts have been developed through long continued and inherited habits. Other highly complex ones have been developed by the preservation of various pre-existing instincts. That is natural selection. Even where Darwin does mention natural selection, he also mentions inheritance of acquired characteristics. Erm, paralleling it. Indeed, he goes on to say, that some physical changes produced in the nerve cells, or nerves which are habitually used, can hardly be doubted. For otherwise, it is impossible to understand how the tendency to certain acquired movements is inherited. It was necessary to show that at least some of them might have been first acquired through the will, in order to satisfy a desire, or to relieve a disagreeable sensation. In other words, when he was talking about psychology, and these are quotes from Darwin's Expression of the Emotions, Darwin not only refers to acquired characteristics, which he believes in, but he even refers to evolution by will. And er, concludes from the observation of his own children I suspect that the vague and very real fears of children, which are quite independent of experience, are inherited effects of real dangers, and abject superstitions during ancient times . So there's no doubt, that Darwin both invoked the inheritance of acquired characteristics, and was even prepared to talk about erm, Lamarck nonsense, not to do with progressivism admittedly, but to do with evolution by will. Now you might say, er, that, that, that's very paradoxical, why should Darwin have been prepared to consider Lamarckism, even evolution by will Lamarckism in psychology, when he, when he wouldn't accept it, for instance, in talking about the, the lengthening of the necks of giraffes. Well, I think the answer to that is it didn't seem so farfetched. Look, look at it this way. If you look at yourself in the mirror, no amount of willing can remove er, fat around your waist. You know, no matter how often you say it, every day and in every way I'm getting thinner and thinner. It won't work. You can will as much as you like, will does not make fat go away, because there's no direct link between a will and, and, and fat obviously. You can't will your fat away, or your arms longer, or, or, or yourself sh a different shape, it, it just won't work. So, so that's clearly ridiculous. However, there is a sense in which will can make fat go away. If you stand in front of a mirror and look at yourself and say, okay I'm just too fat, I'm going on a diet, and you have sufficient willpower to stick to your diet, you will lose weight, so when you're talking about behaviour, it's not so stupid to think that will is associated with the final outcome, because we know that people can will things which have, which have affects on their emotions and their, and their behaviour and their state of mind. And that I think, is why Darwin was prepared to countenance Lamarckism in psychology whereas he never was when he was talking about physical adaptations. You can't will your fat away just by thinking about it, but you damn well can go on a diet. And as we all know, the extent to which you succeed in your diet, is a question of willpower. So I think that when Darwin was writing about psychology, he became a Lamarckian, in just about every sense of the word, because will is related to things that people do and think. Now, if you then go back to Freud, what you can immediately see, is that things are not as simple as we, as we may have thought. Freud's ideas are often rejected as being Lamarckian, and therefore wrong, and Darwin is, is often opposed to this, as being right. An example of this is found in, in a recent book by Richard Dawkins, where, and here I quote Dawkins, Dawkins says Lamarckians are traditionally fond of calluses , that is you know, erm, hardened skin, thickened skin, like on the sole of your feet, and he contrasts these Lamarckians who like callouses, with the Darwinian, who he says has a ready answer, in terms of natural selection. The, the opposition here is between the Lamarckians who are wrong, and think you can inherit er, an acquired callous from your ancestors, and the Darwinian who is right, who believes that callouses are related to natural selection. Okay er, according to Darwin, and here I quote,in infants long before birth , says Darwin,the skins on the soles of the feet is thicker than on any other part of the body, and it can hardly be doubted that this is due to the inherited effects of pressure during a long series of generations . In other words, Darwin here was being a Lamarckian. The problem is that with the benefit of hindsight, we kind of excused and purged Darwin's Lamarckism. And we've come to understand Darwinism, as opposed to Lamarckism, and ruling it out. But the truth is, that in his own day, Darwin was something of, of a Lamarckian. He was definitely a Lamarckian in the sense that he believed in inherited, in the inheritance of acquired characteristics, and as we've seen, in writing about psychology, he even conceded something of, of Lamarck's idea about evolution by will. So the idea that historically there was Lamarck and there was Darwin, and they were two totally mutually exclusive schools of thought is simply untrue. The truth is, that Darwin was something of, of a Lamarckian in his own lifetime. Modern Darwinists of course have er, completely rejected Lamarckism. Richard Dawkins writes very well about this, I mean, he makes complete, he shows that Lamarckism is total nonsense, er, which of course it is. But this is with the benefit of hindsight. It's all very well for Richard Dawkins to be wise after the event, er, Freud, writing in nineteen thirteen, had no such benefit. So it seems to me that the, the problem is that, that Freud's explanation of how human beings acquired an innate, evolved sense of guilt, about murdering their relatives and committing incest, tends to be rejected as Lamarckism. This is the example that I wanted to quote in erm, in er, answer to er, the question you asked me earlier. I forget what it was now, but anyway, now I know what the answer was going to be . The answer was going to be that er, just as we look back on Darwin and don't notice his Lamarckism, in, in a sense, Darwin wasn't as Darwinian as we might now think, so we've probably got a picture of Freud which is, er, more Freudian as it were, than Freud really was. Freudian in the modern world, has come to mean a belief, predominantly, that human behaviour is influenced by early experience. That's what most people understand Freudian psychology to be. This is what Talker Parsons interpreted it to be in building Freud into his sociological system as a theory of socialization. Most people think of Freudianism, that, that way. That Freudianism is all about the, how the environment, the home environment, early experiences shape human psychology. Now the fact is, if you read Totem and Taboo, whatever you think, and how ever preposterous the idea may seem, what Freud actually says at the end of that book is not that, what Freud says is, there is an in innate, inborn sense of guilt about murdering near relatives like fathers and committing incest. This is an, a product of evolution, admittedly Freud uses a Lamarckian scenario to explain how it got there, but the fact is that Freud insisted on it. It seems to me that, what, what's tended to happen throughout the greater part of this century, is people have read this book, they've said oh look, this is Freud's Lamarckism, we know this is all wrong, so let's forget all that because it's not essential to Freud. It is not essential to Freud, to believe that people have an innate sense of guilt about murdering their near kin, or, or committing incest. So, we'll forget all that, and we'll just assume that what Freud really meant, was that people have sense of guilt because they've been socialized to have it. And indeed, this has become the dominant twentieth century dogma about incest avoidance. Freud's theory was taken up by the French structuralist, Claude who developed it into a cultural determinist theory, which said that er, animals commit incest, human beings don't. Human beings don't do it, because of rules which, which are the result of socialization. This theory is factually wrong, because animals do not commit incest. For example, if given a choice, between mating with a near relative, and mating with a non-relative, a mouse will choose the non-relative. And throughout most of the animal, and indeed the plant world, incest is regularly and systematically avoided. So, to say as people like says that, incest is part of, is natural as it were, and incest avoid avoidance is cultural is, is really wrong. The rule may be cultural, but the behaviour certainly isn't. Furthermore, to imagine that he's repeating what Freud said, and claiming that Freud really believed that our sense of guilt about incest and murdering relatives was the result of, of socialization is again simply not true. What Freud actually says in Totem and Taboo is the opposite of that, what he actually says is that these feelings are innate, and they are part of an evolutionary heritage. Now, I admit that it can't be, it can't have come about in the way that Freud says. That, that, that's definitely true. Freud's Lamarckian scenario makes no more sense than any other, than any other kind of Lamarckian scenario does. The point I'm making however, is that a, a fairer way to judge this book, might be to say, not well let, let's reject everything in it that's Lamarckian, cos it doesn't fit with our modern prejudices, a fairer way, might be to read it the way we read Darwin's works, where there is also considerable Lamarckenis Lamarckism, and say well, this is er, this is an understandable error, given the poor state of knowledge that people had about genetics at the time, and then try and make sense of it. People don't reject Darwin's book on the emotions just because it's, it's rather heavily tainted with Lamarckism. And it seems to me, one shouldn't reject er, Totem and Taboo er for the same reason. Well, at that point we've got to three o'clock and the end of the term, erm I'll take up Totem and Taboo, and its more forward lis looking aspects in the first lecture of er, next term, and I wish you all a happy Christmas, and new year, and hope you have a good, a good vacation and look forward to seeing you here again, the first Thursday of next term. Thanks. er er the the sort of way in which we're going to recover the Yeah. the figure. Yeah. The way we're going to recover it first is on that Right but So I want to I want to work out what's involved there, I'll go at something like twenty per cent, so it'll come out about twenty pound fifty something Right. like that. I'll go in at first, I'll see how much that's gonna be which is about seven hundred pounds. Yeah. And I'll work that into the five per cent and it may reduce the erm period of time to five months say or four Yeah. months but I'll work it out Yeah. and I'll say to him, right, okay, we'll give you the five per cent r reduction for only eight months of the year. Yeah? Yeah. But this bearing goes up to this price. And in ef Yeah. in effect what you're doing is helping us out with the cost that we incurred in getting it and the help that we've done you. Right right. I've got the price of that product up and also get him his reduction after a period of time. Right. Yeah. When you're when you're talking about what it's cost us to get him those bearings Right. er the figure is well over a thousand pounds. Right. This simple bit is the overtime. Mm. The overtime that we worked is about thirty five hours at six pounds an hour. We had three additional setups Mhm. Er those were only the setups o as a result of breaking something else down and putting this bearing on. yeah. It had nothing to do with s with the the setups involved in splitting the batch right. Okay? Okay. So so you've got there three a at erm Three Three seven an Yeah, seven and a half hours. Two and a half hours for setup at twenty eight pounds an hour. Mm. Right so you've got a you've got another hundred and fifty quid there or so Mm. at least. A hundred innit yeah. So then then you've got the thing that is not measured which we can't measure is the disrupti the the cost of the disruption to all the other customers who who's batches have been put back Mm. as a result. Yeah. And now that is immeasurable Mm. but it costs. Yeah mm. And and so erm and if you double the figure that you've got there Mm. you may be getting somewhere near. Mm. Yeah okay So so twelve hundred quid. So a thousand twelve hundred quid is the sort of is the sort of minimum figure you Yeah. should be talking about. Right. Er and when he says well h how the hell do you make that up? Well I'll give you the easy bit, That's manufacturing , he's not daft. He'll know Yeah. it's gonna cost something like that. Yeah. So yeah, fine. Erm and Yeah, I just want to get the emphasis back onto that one first, and the products , we accepted it and we've got to live with it at some point in time, but the longer I can put that off, the better. But the majority of the advantage I make, I want to be put into the . I I would yes I would suggest that when you when you do this five per cent thing erm make your make your Even if it's three per cent make your price adjustment. Make your price adjustment soon. Mm. Make it now Mm. and say well we'll hold that for five months but then we'll go back to the Yeah. Yeah we'll restrict it instead of going into the full year Instead of to the higher price for the end of the year we'll Well instead of doing it might say well just do it the end of the year. I'll see what I can get from him, yeah. Right. Yeah alright. And and er we've then contributed to his cost down Mhm. because over all his situation will be better . Yeah. And er we'll have given it him I mean on his on his total cost he'll be down. Yeah. Right. And we'll have given him a clue for how to budget for next year as well. The E R C one er for this extra ceramic , that is separate, I've got to do that as export so leave that with me . Okay that that is out Right. that is out the equation it's er one thing I've got to haggle with Graham on. Right. That will be . I won't get an instant reaction. Well I will but it maybe not that er . This is erm the the ceramic cage ceramic balls. Right this is a new thing for experimental work that we're doing for them is it? Er well it's not a new thing, we've be we've been making ceramic ball bearings for a while Yeah. we've have a E R C for about six months now. Er we've come to the end of some of the trials. They want to run one up to see what the maximum speed is, well of course that's gonna destroy it. Yeah. So but they want to do cooking trials as well, actual cooking trials They Cincinnati. Yes. at Cincinnati in the new development shop. Yeah. So what we've got is another set put through. Now you're talking about five hundred quid for the set of three bearings. So I'm saying to Graham , come on, we're helping you, you are helping us obviously, I'm not gonna deny the fact you're helping us with our research. Yeah? Yeah. But er you know We've gotta have a sensible price with them . Gotta be reasonable with it. So I need some help on that. We're giving him wh If he gives me three or four hundred quid. You've given him one set already have you? Or we've used one set at E R C. Well and we've used it for Well answer is yes but I'm you know, it's making sure you get the business. You know, come on. If we're gonna be partners it's gotta be equal not er Yeah. So anyway yeah, I I've gotta do that with Graham . Er right okay no problem with that. Right , Steve has offered two per cent, whereas before nothing. Yeah er last year the budget was thirty K at thirty seven per cent and we actually did forty K at thirty seven per cent. And there is another five and a half K to come in from now that's closed. So there's a bit more business Right. drifting in. So we've got potentially forty five. With that being such a low figure this year, tends to be quite cyclical. Yeah. You know, one year's quite low, thirty five, forty thousand, next year sixty five. Yeah you tend to get that Yeah. spread. So next year I think is potentially hoping that it's gonna come. Whether the recession knocks it back a bit I don't know. But er there is potential for fifty K plus at reasonable margins seven per cent. So you know he's offered two per cent and they're not giving it out to many people. The only reason he's giving it to us is cos he's thinks that we didn't have an increase last year. He's forgotten that we did but I'm not gonna tell him that . Er If w if we we did get an Right well increase last year. Actually. Well I think If he knew that he'd turn round and say get lost. I think I think what you what you need to do is to push him Right. If h er how much nego er what what's the situation at the moment, you said three per cent have you? You're gonna go in at th you went for four? I I I went for four. I went for four he said he said zilch. So I said, well come on you've gotta be reasonable with me so I spoke to him last week and he says, look you didn't have one last year so I'll give you two. And he says it's more than I've given the others because they did have an increase. He'd forgotten that we did have an increase. The only problem is Well precision market at the minute is are playing silly buggers. have given me a a bit of grief because the they're on a very similar price level now to us. Mhm. Because they're being supported by . But are coming in they're quoting three or four per cent underneath. Er at they're ten per cent underneath and historically, a couple of years ago, you're talking two or three times the price, their prices at one period, probably about the mid to late eighties, doubled and trebled in price. Who's marketing ? It's it's er their part of aren't they. That's what I was thinking. Yeah. But their prices now Are are they being are they being marketed by ? No it's who've called in to yeah Andy . He's e he's now you know. So I've got a Well problem with them. Er in so much as I mean I must admit with these increases, I appreciate your need to get the extra profits and I'm looking at the ones where I think we can push them to get a bit more. But there are others where you know I'm e I'm very reluctant to to get involved. I mean Right. for example. Well We budgeted twenty K at sixty two per cent margin, we're actually eighteen at sixty five per cent margin. Now you can't screw people like that. No. And let's just let's just go And they have really back to . Yeah. Er how many part numbers do we sell to ? Sorry? How many part numbers do we sell to ? Er about twelve. Plus standard bearings as well on top of that. Right. Erm can you push him up on the standard bearings? Very doubtful. Er the group will buy European rubbish if they have to. Right. Erm can we can you as part of the discussion, can you start off by saying well thank you very much for the call that you gave me last week but erm erm there's there's just a couple of sizes I'd like to talk talk to you about . Mhm. What try and get it back on some. And try and squeeze a few back a bit further. Yes ? Okay. Yeah. Aha. Yeah. I'll have a look See I'll have a product. The problem is I can't say that at the minute cos I haven't got my print done. I'm having a yearly detailed print done of last year, Yeah. John was just running it for me now so I'll pick it up on the way home tonight . You see but I've had to have this run Right. for other reasons, I E the industrial stock. Yeah. put the onus back on me now to say what of that stock we want to keep before they throw it away. Right. Yeah? So I've had to have this print run of detailed customer parts by quantity for ninety three. Right. Yeah unfortunately I've not been able to have it done yet. Other people have been jumping in and getting print left right and centre Right but but but that's coming tonight that? That's coming to then I can start to look in more detail Right well I I mean I think that that's the way to that's the way to try and squeeze Yeah yeah try and get a few on others take on Well yes what what you've got to try and do is to divide and rule. Get the overall number up. Yeah? Yeah. Get the overall number up by erm by er focusing on a few Okay. and and I mean, obviously to begin with you don't give away on anything. No no. Erm and er that's that's the way Er Tom . Okay thank you. Je ne comprends pas. Exactly yeah. Right so you're gonna try and divide him and rule him. Right. Just I've just had a a quick word with Maureen, this is another thing that's come up. On the industrial side, I mentioned to Steve last year at the end of last year saying, look it's coming up to. Then I'd be looking after you for both products and what I want to do is have a look at all the standard bearings you take to see if there is potential for a supply. Yeah. What he's done is stuffed an order through for a six three O eight. Yeah. At like half price, less than, erm a six three O seven that we supply already, because it's the price. So I knew this would come up but I didn't realize he'd be jumping onto the bandwagon that quick. So that the six three O eight was a product that had supplied ? had supplied yeah at about four pound eighty I think the price is. Yeah well of course The six three O seven we supply at about nine pounds. So I've got a problem. So why did he come to why did he come to for the six three O seven. Because it was one that we were doing with in conjunction with an E P three bearing . Special B J seven thousand. Or E X P What and they were matched in some way? Well no we had a matched pair of a pair of precision E P bearings radials at the front. I mean they use a pair of radials Right. together. Right. Erm and because they like to keep the same manufacturer on one shaft if they could, they took out six three O seven for the back end. Well of course part of ask for an E P three supply it . part of part of the erm part of that issue says that of course all the prices that he's got. Tho they've all gone up eight per cent. Because prices have gone up eight per cent across the board. Right. So so the price as was before Doesn't exist it's is no longer valid. Right. Now erm we will have to look at the situation with regard to the er all the other ones and we'll do an analysis, what are the volumes and so on and what other what other popular metric bearings We've got an opportunity to Right . Are you buying from anybody else because can we do a deal on the whole lot? Right that's what I was trying to get Yeah. Erm You see I've got the prob I mean my initial reaction is I mean I I've got no strong feeling to say we've got to supply product the stuff it's cheaper, we make more money, sod it. Erm Well of course even the product is product. No yeah when it is our product it's a D five if it's , it's D six if it's . But erm I don't care which is what it is No. to be honest. No. Erm but er I have the problem with trying to balance up which way to go. I mean obviously I'd like to sell it all at price levels but there's get away with that . Of course you w of course you would Of course you would and it may be that what you will have to say is, Well look, erm I gave you the four per cent on the on the precision types and that that really has to stay, but by the time we by the time we've done all the analysis on the er on the popular metrics, it will work out that it is is is only two per cent. Right okay Because of because of the because of the erm er ups and downs that's all. So I Yeah . Leave that with me I'll I'll get in contact with Steve and I'll try and get this list sorted. Where you can be a bit where you think you've got a technical issue to sell, Mm. which is on the precision ones, Yeah. erm even if it's slightly over engineered, Mm. try and push it. Yeah okay. Where where you know that he can go out to the market for a popular metric bearing and and slaughter the old price Yeah yeah. then you've got you've got to beware. Yeah sure. But but don't give it away for nothing. Mm. the thing the thing that you've got to avoid is getting into a situation where you've where where you you say to him, Oh well okay two per cent, and then he comes back to you and says,but what about this six three O eight. Mm. And what about the six three Yeah. O seven?come on fellas the six three O seven's gotta be cheaper than the six three O eight. Yeah yeah. Erm and and you get yourself into a into a hole. Mm mm. So I I think you've got to open it up by separating the two bits of business, the bit that's special Yeah. And and that's that's going four per cent. The bit which of course basically going eight per cent. Right. But if if you end up with all the popular metric business at somewhere around the sort of equivalent price level, margin level that you've got that business at, Mhm. then you stand a chance in being able to show him nothing more than two per cent. Right . Do you see what I'm getting at ? Yeah yeah yeah I know that. But you've actually got you've manoeuvred him there in such a way that he might be prepared to accept that. Yeah fine okay. Right, so I'll get in contact with him and we'll sort that then. Erm is one they've been in a very similar position to in so much as competition's forced them to cost down dramatically I mean Yeah. you're talking a third more. They get all they get promised orders right up until a month before switch on time and then it goes. And they really do have problems with getting customers to promise an order for up the line and keep it. Yeah. Competition turn around's gonna chop another ten per cent off. Erm and the fact that we're making over sixty per cent margin i is good business for us in such Okay it's only twenty K, but potentially longer term when the recovery comes, they're gonna be Spindle bearings? Yeah. Only spindle bearings ? Er no it's for er screw support bearings and spindle bearings. There are some S F T twenties and stuff like that as well but those don't show in these figures you see. I've gotta look at them separately cos I haven't got the industrial yet. Erm right. So But but basically we s we screw 'em. And we've got you know that is actually a lot lower than it used to be because we they actually caught us charging them three hundred and fifty quid for a bearing that we're now charging them two hundred and fifty quid for. So you can imagine what margin that used to be. I mean we're talking eighty per cent. Yeah you start to feel a little uncomfortable. Especially knowing what are always in there, Stuart's always on the door cos he lives in Keighley. Yeah he lives round the corner. Yeah he's well in there, but not got the business by er trading off. But it's a good technical business to have for other people as well to know about. We deal with , we deal with names , they're all names to be connected with . Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah What what have you said to at the moment. Er all I've said is, Yes I understand your position, I'll go away and talk to Tom about it. R Right, have you have you given him a figure have you put a figure on the table at all? No I said four four from the letter and it's been left at that. It's four from the letter? It's four from the letter I haven't reduced anything yet . So he he he's got four. All he's said is nothing. Right. I must admit I'm in that Right. one particularly with the margins on I'm reluctant to What's his payment terms? Thirty days normal ? thirty days yeah. Right. Erm is there anything else that you might be able to get out of him if you concede? Not really. Erm Is there any other business that Not really no What do you do where does he get his screws from? hydrostatic . Er , We can't compete. can't touch them. Never Can we not? No our buying cost's higher than 's selling price sometimes. . Very difficult. Right. have their quality problems, that's where you can score over but the prices are very very low and tend to pick them up. I I quoted for a rolled screw once, yeah and my buying price from I'm talking about a year and half ago, was higher than 's quoted price for a ground bore screw. It was just so Yeah. Mm. have a problem all of their own and I don't intend to drag that into it. I'm I'm happier to stand away and 's going in on Friday. Mhm. I'm happier to stand back and let him do his bit and I'll do my bit, as long as we're talking to each other. Yeah as long as we know what the other's doing. Yeah. Yeah. But they're prepared to let it stand as the prices are at the moment cos they're under pressure. Ah. With their own problems, this supply and what have you. Ah. Apparently if click on one particular size that they can get it from , that could wipe out 's business cos as soon as they click one size, then 'll be in and wipe the floor with them. That's the impression I'm getting and and they're and they're tending to back off. Not to invite the er the monitoring in effect, the comparison. Now with and me it's a different ball game. Well. We we have this split Oh okay. first What do you think, I'll do the in a minute, that's on the list so. Well I think I th I think you may may find yourself having to er er give way. Mm. There. Erm you've got to put up a show Oh yeah yeah. and again er if you can If I get something on one of them to s to look as though I've Right. fought for it. Yes. Yeah and I have to walk away from the others . Yeah yeah and I mean you can you you've got to use the negotiating technique of come on fella you know I'm gonna get I'm gonna get chewed over if I don't Oh yeah don't worry I do. come away with something. I've already told him I'm gonna get my arse kicked cos I haven't for eight you see. That's my Yes. There's my strong point straight away. Yes. Get a bit of sympathy cos I've been asked for eight by you. That's right. And I've already put a letter out saying four, so I've had me arse kicked already. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm on the defensive so he's you know he's Right so erm i if you can end up with two or if you can end up with I mean it may be more helpful for him if he gets if he gets a a a no increase on one size and an increase on the other. And and actually out if him on a weaker size I will do, but Yeah. with it being a higher margin I'm very loathe to er rock the cart. What's he doing in the way of development? Er Chris they don't they tend to I think it's like a lot of people in the U K I mean you've got in the machine tools side but like on the on the side, They use use hydrostatics . So they they run on the oil you know like our H C F machines do on the shop floor. Erm but they're in a position on a lot of the things, like they use our precision P n P two bearings in their dressers. Yeah. You know and things like that and bearings well the P three as we call then support bearings. So you know th they're using the most accurate bearing they can for what they use it for. Er on the spindle side, you know, it's gonna stay the way of the hydrostatics cos of the damping ab capabilities of it so There's not it's not an area where New machines coming along? New ideas ? They tend to be variations on a theme. Cam grinders, they're not gonna change a lot. Reciprocating wheel,cams. things like that. Right right. So get the opportunity for Tom Thank you. Hello Dietrich. Right Yes. Aha. Right. Right That figures. That figures. Right. Okay yeah. Erm we'll we'll be erm er we'll be we'll be going for ten. And and I'll er I'll let you know if anything else if anything else comes out of that. Okay and that sh we should have in the next day or two. Good thanks a lot Dietrich. Bye. So erm yes with with with er erm er you you need to encourage them to er think development. The problem is with that, the way they developed has gone towards the hydrostatics. Yes. The problem with development on their machines is I can see it going away from normal bearings. Right to? So so in a way, they're looking at the levels we're at now is an accurate level using a high price item. I'd be loathe to push them any f tilt them into a position where they say, Well you know could we use for the dresser. You know what I mean ? Well Yeah but Yeah but there's there's erm th there's a pay-off between cost and accuracy and that's the thing isn't there. Erm what a erm have they have they thought about how they're going to get the costs down within their machines? Mm. And if so, what are they you know what are they doing about it? Right. Could we could we set up a a a conversation on that on that subject because we might Yeah. we might be able to help we might be able to generate some ideas between us Yeah. which will help them Okay yeah yeah. You know so that's something that you can give Yeah as a service part of the relationship yeah yeah . erm as a a part of the service . Erm to to emphasize the fact that erm in principle we are we are committed to providing our customers with a service that enables them to be more competitive. But we've got to get them to understand that that doesn't mean to say that our prices will always be the lowest. Mm. It means to say that if we have the right relationship between us and our customers, we get in a design stage Yeah. and and we can help them with our bearing experience Mm. engineering bearing experience, we can help them choose a bearing which will enable them to be more competitive. Mm yeah okay yeah. So I mean that's the sort of atmosphere that we we've got to try and Yeah I know try and generate. Yeah I mean I'm not being cynical but that's very easy to say. It is. Anyway. It's easier it's a great deal easier to say than to do. But but what you're trying to create in the guy is a bit of a warm feeling Yeah yeah. Loyalty is a good thing. And and erm But it only goes so far. Yeah er er there there is a there is a there is a world of difference between saying those words and giving giving your opposite number a w a warm feeling Mm. and actually doing anything achieving anything. Mm. But I mean, one of the things that we've got on with at the moment is that we've been saying for ages, you've got to get your you've got to get us involved at design stage. Mm. And they've done absolutely bugger all about it. So what have they done? They've designed in a bearing which which which is stupidly expensive. Mhm. And if they'd started thinking about it at design stage, we could have suggested them another bearing that would do the job and be a lot cheaper. Mhm. So but they they've missed it it's too late Yeah. that's the that's the problem. Once you've actually designed the piece, Mm. you can't go back. Tom Oh hello Arthur, good afternoon to you. Yes. Yes. Yes. I signed three times. I'll get him to re retransmit it to you. I expect it probably got erm er stuck in the machine or something. Yeah okay Arthur. See you tomorrow. Bye. Kim? She's not here. Er C Carol could you could you organize page two of Kim's three page fax Three page fax. Yeah he he's sent back er three pages of a fax that he'd received. And it looks as though it's picked up the middle page. Okay, to where? To Edgeware. To Edgeware.. Air about airfreight. About airfreight okay. There's one page missing. Right okay. Right okay. .. She'd offered two straight away so I'm gonna try and get some more out of her. I take it that is a special bearing, I know she's had people look at it, I'm gonna try and suss out how far she's got down that line as to having another source but I don't think she has. The price we sell that at is quite low. Really. Yeah? But we have budgeted it for eighty five K at thirty six per cent and we achieved a hundred and three at thirty eight. Right, so er you certainly don't want to be giving in at at two per cent unless the volume we're sure's gonna be higher again this year. Right, she's just put another o order on for about erm a big order . So she says they usually put schedules on for fourteen month for the next ten months, twelve months. Yeah. So the order's on so I've got to try and argue the toss with her Right. erm we budgeted at fifteen K at forty three per cent, we did twenty two but only at thirty six per cent cos the product mix changed. Yeah. Yeah. They sold off their small tools division where we sold some bearings to them. Which we made good margins on. That's the W D S small parts now. Standard parts Yeah. size. six three O six, six six three O two er fours. Erm I've had a word with Kevin and he does recognize the fact that we've got to get something. But he this was a week and a half ago and he said, give me a couple of weeks, I want to have a look at the figures and the mix and have a think about it and I'll come back to you. But he does want to get something sorted before the end of January. So I'll see what he's got to say . Right, see what he's gonna say erm That is one where we . Er there's not a great value in sales, as I say, twenty two K. But then again how values how valuable is valuable? I don't you know. To me twenty two K Twenty two K twenty two K's worth having. At thirty six per cent margin. Certainly. Yeah. So you know, I mean that's that's the er So I'll see what Kevin comes back to me with first . Mm. Where are we at with ? Pain in the backside. I spoke to today when I was over there just after lunch. He's as confused as I am, are an account that you can ne we're never bottom of We used to have a very good relationship through a guy called Ray . Mhm I knew him. The problem is Liked his golf. Right the problem is, it was er like a guy called er Norman at . They got so close to him and knew him so well that nothing else mattered. When he actually retired it left er A complete hole. Yeah yeah I mean, and cert And we had the wrong contacts with the wrong people. Yeah. At the wrong time. And I said to peter guess who picked up the account just after that? I said I said to Peter and David , back in nineteen ninety one, I said we've got a big problem. Oh don't worry about it, Ray'll see us right. And bloody hell, six months later, Ray retires and we are left in nineteen ninety two, Right but but Yeah. clearly we I mean we're just not We had a very bad time with Ken , the buyer at first. Yeah. At one point he said David was joking too much and I was too flippant. Yeah he did have a good go at us through Shane. Erm but it wo oh it was j He's such a wanker. Honest I mean everybody we talk to who knows him yeah, he really is erm the rep's a bit of skirt, he's well in. Apparently. The the scheduler, Pauline I can't make her out, she seems to be fairly u straight, organized but it had got to the situation where I mean I didn't like it but it happened, we were supplying six months of product and then was supplying six months. Mm. There were two sizes, seven O two O and seven O one O which is used on the . A pair each end. That we were a joint suppliers of. With the seven two O five bearings on the ball screw, the lead screw, which were the seven stroke nines that we used to supply, single source, that's where the big bulk of our business came from and er er a standard E P seven at the other end. A pair of seven two O fives. Mm. Which was joint source. Fortunately one of the good points about losing the seven stroke nine business is that Pauline transferred some of the stock of that seven stroke nine bearing on to the other end. Cos they were replacing it with a radial, they're transferred that stock onto the other end product number. And it's carried over our list, so we've actually picked up the seven two O five now as single source. Which is okay, that's a nice bit about it. The problem is we're still j joint source on the other two. And that's I I had a quick er look through last year's sales and and laid out in fact I went through item deliveries and worked them into the months Mm. to get to see when we dropped off. And you could see all ours coming up to about erm May time bang, then the gap. Obviously when was supplying. And it went to seven months because they did have a downturn in the business so it pushed the quantities back a bit. Yeah. Erm so it went to seven months and then you could see us switch back on time and we switched back on in about November. So I thought, oh that's great, we've got the business through till April. Pauline rings up last week, sent me a fax er with the schedule on and there was the seven O one Os were missing off it so I rang up and said, you know, we've not got any schedule on these two bearings Pauline. Oh I've just sent the fax to for a hundred pairs. I said Well I thought we were supplying now, it was our turn to have the half year. Oh dear I'm sorry, I'll give you the other hundred from for February. Well thanks Pauline but you've cost me how nay thousand pounds worth of business. And to be honest they I I'm whether they're stringing us along or not I don't know. exactly the same position on . He can't make them out, he doesn't know how to handle them. And I must admit with Ken, Ken is is least to blame because he just puts the orders on, Pauline is the one who schedules it, but the scheduling is just the swannee. And trying to tie Pauline down. And how often does the schedule happen? It comes out every fortnight. I mean we might have an order three hundred but if they don't need any it just shows zero so we're we're stuck. The problem is Mm. I always said to them I would much prefer to supply fifty per cent of the monthly usage, spread it out throughout the year. Have half the business with every month. So if they get twenty pairs, we get twenty pairs. If they get ten we get ten. Every month. Yeah yeah. Because the six month period that you get which is is reflected is coming th through now, Yeah. lose contact with really where you are with them. Suddenly they come on cos they don't give as much notice, they're a pain in the bum . Yeah. We try and keep a bit of stock up front so we don't annoy them you know, so we've got something to react with . Yeah yeah. But it catches us with our pants down and they go back to and blame us for it. But Certainly you lose your control over the schedule. By the time it comes for us to switch it on, they could say, right we want twenty pairs a month at this size,don't know what they're using. Because it's been that long keeping an eye on them that they could be supplying half the business on our time with and then a hundred per cent the rest of the time. Mm. And it's difficult to t tr track it. Can you can you try and er erm make some er plea for erm factory stab on the basis of factory stability. I have done. But that erm that we'd actually like so many per month and that that enables us to plan the factory . Yeah I I did it with Pauline, she she actually didn't mind doing it at one point before Christmas but it hasn't come about and as she said,won't change it, it won't happen. I think we're stuck with it now. This half year supply business which I don't like at all. And the fact that are four per cent cheaper than us and as soon as I mention and increase he says, well if it's dual source we've been told to look at the cheapest source of supply as single source. And then you told me, well are saying eight per cent. Something like that? Er I think I think probably they they're going up a little bit later so Right right so basically what what will happen is that they put this order on because they're cheaper at the moment and the next one we shall be cheaper. We'll be if we get our four per cent If we get our four per cent and they get eight per cent. Mm. But Then then then er then we'll be on a par. Do you know that 'll put it up that much? Yes. Sure? Well not are they asking for it? but have they got it? Because my one fear is saying, yes we need four per cent thinking that are gonna go for eight, ten or whatever to put us on a par Well and go in for five Well if and they're still under us and then they don't create the problem Oh no no no no but if the situation is such that er you what you say is that is the s the six months has now started has it? No no not yet, officially Not yet. but what she did, she sent the fax to them and ordered a hundred pairs. It was only when I rang her up to chase up what had happened to the she says, oh dear I've sent it to the wrong one. . I can't say, you stupid cow. Yeah you know you think I put the phone down But a hundred pairs for how long? H That's a couple of well actually what it is the there was a hundred ninety and er then we had er she says but I want the hundred off you in February which was This was at the just bef just after Christmas. So you're talking a month yeah, but you see, they may take a hundred in one go and then leave it a month or so. Yeah. Yeah or two months. I it they're the drop they're take it in isn't the exact requirement. Well if schedule goes like this anyway . If you if you need to do something about it, then er in order to secure that order for a hundred, then sell them at the old price. Mm. Oh I've don that that's alright I mean she's given us Yeah. And the order for them now, we've got the fax. Oh we have got it. Oh yeah got the fax we've got Right. I wasn't . Oh right okay. The problem I've got is is er I know what I want to do and you told me what are doing, so from that I have a good picture of what how I should approach it. But that is everybody being fair. Yeah if Now but th if I've understood you correctly, there's going to be a few months when we don't actually supply anything. We should be getting at least to March all supplied from us now for the next three or four months it should all be from us. Right. But what's gonna happen is, these little mistakes are happening and are picking it up. Oh dear, sorry, made a mistake, yes? Mm. Er Mm. How do I cope with that. But You can't the most difficult situation in in our job is coping with an incompetent buyer or scheduler. I don't think it's incompetent. That's the problem Well if she was I could accept it. But she isn't. That's why I'm more suspicious than annoyed. You see what I mean. And happening to know that the r the rep's a bit of skirt, that Ken loves Mm. Yeah I'm I'm I don't know how to And I'm not gonna go and say come on Ken . You know you have to draw the line at how far you can go but I'm f I'm worried about this account definitely. Because I can't I honestly have got a I don't know what's happening. And unfortunately unless can guarantee I mean what what what I would like to know is what they're gonna charge the what they're charging them now and what they're gonna charge them. So we can suit our prices to get . Because if you think about it, this is a w this is a danger we may suffer without actually being able to to get up. Yeah. Mm. I'm not saying they would, but what I'm saying is if say we're four per cent behind and Ken won't give me the exact price Yeah. it's three four five-ish per cent yeah, and that isn't gonna be on e the same on every product so Yeah. but say it's four per cent on every size, and I want four, yeah, so I put me four, that's eight per cent above a bit above . Yeah. And go for eight, fine and now I'm on a level playing field. Yeah. But is he fifty P in front of me or fifty P behind, Cos then Ken turns Right. round and says right, cos you've both had an increase, I'm gonna go for the cheapest one. And we've blown it. That is that is always a danger. Yes. Erm and and erm er yes that that that is that is a danger, what we have to try and remember although it's no great comfort to you, is that overall, the prize is tremendous Mm. in er I mean even if if get their prices up eight per cent and are still under us, Mm they've done then brilliantly haven't they. you know, well they've done brilliantly but the market we've b between us we've got a good for the market . entire market price even though it cost us the business at this point in time. Right. And and there's always the chance of getting it back at a later stage er but the whole market will have moved up a level. Yeah but I don't want to lose seventy grand's worth of business. No now what are the what are the items that that are still being bought as precision items? There's er three sizes now, that we're down to, the seven O one O, the seven O two O which are the drum bearings and then the seven two O five which is the lead screw bearing. Seven two O five. Yeah. And they're all P And P fours. They're all P fours with Yeah. what sort of things I mean they're singles? They're pairs. They're pairs? Yeah. They're pairs of P five. P s P four. P four? Yeah E P seven this was. Standard normal precision. The seven stroke nine which is what we call a P three, yeah it's not but Yeah yeah. we've settled on P three, erm the seven two O five one is the one that's been designed out. This seven two O five that's I've written down here. Yeah that's a P four. . That's one end of the lead screw. Right so these ones all stay. Yeah they're they're the present sizes now we're talking about. Right. And what prices have we got on those? Hang on . I'll go and get the price is you want it. Yeah get the get get me the prices on those will you. You need an extra pair of hands. These are what I've got on the disks you see. the pricing of it. If I can find it. The seven two O fives, twenty six pounds. That's pair as well is it? That's pair yeah. Twenty? Twenty six. Twenty six, yeah. The seven O two Os are a hundred and nine. Yeah. The seven O one Os are twenty nine pounds thirty. Golly. That's it. So that seems to be an extraordinary lack of difference, between a seven two O five and seven O one O. Mm. A mere three pounds. Three pound thirty. Just historically how the prices have been Yeah. Right these are ninety three prices are they ? They are ninety three prices yeah. And er at the moment you've asked for four per cent. Yeah. From January? Yeah. Right. I'll get some more information about that. Okay. I mean I'm aware of the thing that's what makes me ask you more about that account, but I am worried about it and and actually in a way are in a very good position. Because they can be seen to be playing ball and yet benefit. You know what I mean? Mm. So that's what worries me. And you reckon we're we're four per cent you're about four per cent below . It's about four per cent on each of the prices. But I mean, you know obviously Ken's not gonna tell me exactly what. If we knew what price were at then it would give me more er confidence to know where we stand and how to go about it. I mean I don't know what the the the the the standing is with our knowledge of information but I would like to think that if there is er erm not a hidden agenda but agreement being made at a level, that we could share the business. Mm. But what I want to do at my present moment is maintain my share of the business. Right. I'm not interested in taking it off anybody. No no. No that's that that is our objective is to maintain the share of business at a higher price level. And erm I mean even at the risk of probably er the other suppliers making a bit more than us if it means that. It'll be interesting if we could find out erm actually what prices are because if he's a good he would have said exactly the same thing to . Oh yeah. Mm. And he will have told that that erm The prices are four per cent below yours dear boy . but we've always known that they have been below. Yeah you've always been told you've always been told that they are . we've always kept the business cod Ray was the buyer. Yeah. Yeah. And yes I I agree he was a good contact to have but he ain't here any more. Yes. And it was predictable And also And it I mean it it doesn't help saying I told you so but I did Unfortunately tell Peter so. Yeah yeah, well he's gone so don't worry about that . Er and erm Yeah he's gone too so. Why worry about it. Erm what er what are our contacts like at a technical level at ? Okay. How often do we get a technical visit in there? Er well it's actually at the technical side is, I I've seen before Christmas. About the new Phoenix machine that er we haven't got a er opportunity for business on anywhere. I've tried and they're not interested. What s what sort of bearing was it? It's a small miniature nine millimetre and fourte thirteen millimetre one. Er a single one and a flanged on as a a pair a matched pair. And I sent off details with the A flanged a straight a straight flange? One straight bearing. Yeah. One plain bearing and one flanged bearing. As a pair. What erm It's reference. Sent it all to Viv with all the details, broke all the reference What volumes? Two thousand a year. How how. Two thousand on one and a thousand on the other. Has he re-inquired on Japan? No. Can I? Yes of course you can. Of course cos if particularly pointed out the flanged bearing and said, You know that does the flanged bearings don't you? I said, No I didn't. He said, they do. They do flanged miniature bearings and it is possible therefore that Mm. somebody somewhere will know. So what I suggest you do is to give erm Jerry a ring. Yeah okay. Cos they won't need to be to P four limits. Well give Jerry a ring and see if there's anything to offer Yeah yeah. Yeah. Yeah yeah. Yeah. Fine yeah. Yeah. So Yeah okay I will do yeah. I'll send . Ask for his comments I'll use K John cos he's the machine tool man. So I'll use him as my contact. It's best to keep . Yeah okay. Oh and I've spoken to Tony meeting. I'm arranging to go and see him, it'll be into next month now when Right. I've had me Good. time off and yeah. Yeah. Right okay. So could could you do something on that, worries me. I will see what I can find out. Yeah I'm I'm I'm . I'm stuck to be honest. I quoted forty per cent on those screw support sizes last Friday. Yeah? I faxed him over on his on Saturday morning. So we'll see what happens. Erm but er what I've just put here is forty per cent margin until price is sorted. We need to Okay. do this visit with Roy and get this price list sorted. Waiting his reply. Right okay. Er You you might you might er er Cos I did have a word with Steve on Friday and said have you seen Jerry and and has he mentioned this Yeah. and and Steve said, No I hadn't heard of it actually. I said, well look, we intend to fax through to Roy saying, yes we want to do business with you. Yeah? Yeah. And erm you know, we're waiting for him to come back and say, Yeah we need to talk. Jerry so he said he hadn't seen but he's not necessarily going to. Do you do you have direct contract with Jerry ? Mm. Why don't you give him a ring? Yeah fair enough. And and say erm Yeah. you know I'm just off likely to be off for for next week and like to get Right. something fixed before I go. Yeah okay. Right and then he probably ring Roy and Yeah You know, use that as an excuse. Yeah. fine okay. Right okay I think that's it then,er Okay Right. so one's really the one where I need to involve you. Basically i if you can. Yeah. The rest I'll let you know I hear. Erm I I'm also I also quite Ooh would like to know what's going on with and . Whether actually has any er control over what 's doing in the marketplace. Okay yeah yeah. I know it was Andy last time and he's a guy so yeah, I'll find out. Well you find out I might be able to find out to . Well yeah okay. Erm that was a point,, I er spindle bearings and I want to take the business off 'em. Now with it being , we're not gonna look at a high margin straight away cos I know that's a waste of time. Er but we can make a reasonable margin including spacers. It's a set of three bearings with a pair of spacers. So you have two bearings in tandem, a pair of spacers and a third bearing. And it's their normal machine centre range. They use like about forty pairs a month. Yeah. Erm sell for about eighty seven pound including spacers so I was gonna go in at about eighty three, eighty four but it's the new pricing company so I've got to ask your permission haven't I? . It's a new product, I'm gonna make reasonable It's about thirty five per cent margin It's a new product? No it's it's a new size for us to supply. We've never b Well historically with what's happened is, the design from Japan was taken under licence Yeah. and they were based around and and designs. Yeah. Now on the five fifty series for example, it's an complete cartridge spindle on the twelve thousand revs, yeah? And we get you know so Anthony would get that business. Because complete spindles come under the precision range of products . Yeah. This is something I was trying to get clarified but I don't care really as long as somebody gets it. Erm but what happened then is er tended to get the main bearing supply for the normal spindles that manufactured and built. Mm. And that was a set of three angular contact ball bearings, and then a N N thirty double row roller at the rear. Er we're now doing this partnership which was what today was about, about the new generation spindle. Yeah. Erm so that's going great, I think that's really going well so the new design, I think we're well in on. Erm the old on that you know, took me two years to get the bearings approved and er you know but then having to wait a year and a half cos had a year and a half's worth of orders on 'em and promised to hold the price for three years is that's what it took for them to use them up, er has run out, new orders have been put on but I've got the chance of taking the business. Er but erm obviously with the thing again, I wanted er obviously What was the you don't to go to 'em for and they say, well you just took the bloody off me, I want a cut in me . Yeah. This is this is You know I don't want to be seen to be This is clearly er erm a situation where erm we must not knowingly take business which we have not enjoyed before at a price below No at a price below the existing suppliers ninety four prices. Now when erm you say are supplying at the moment. Mhm. Yeah. The problem is Dave , the buyer at , is worse than Ken . He's a real dipstick. Yeah? W his last comment. Wh what happened is, Richard was the team section leader, Dave historically looks after the bearings sales. But he's such a dork I'm taking him off it. And they're letting him keep linear. Cos linear is just consignment stock and you know job there. Sally the lass who's taken over the buying for precision bearings, is a great lass got on great with her, and Richard. And they want to come and see the factory, they want to go to yeah, it fell down cos Richard was too busy at the end of last year, fine get that sorted and i Sally was dropped in the crap by right at the end of last year, came on five sets of bearings, I could've done 'em in two weeks. I said I'll get you in two weeks, wallop wallop It's alright,to do it, they have 'em back in a month. We're alright you know, they only way you'll get the business, he's like that, he talks like that, is if you can you know offer a big price saving. That I'm afraid that's one thing you can't do Alright. even if it means that this year Yeah yeah. Er From my own point of view I want the business but bearing in mind what's happening I'm asking you before I do anything. Erm I Should I let the dust settle first? Yes. So I'll leave it. E you either either leave it or If I quote three or four quid underneath, he'll consider it and we may get an order in a few months time when the schedule runs out. Do you want me just to leave it? I think what you could sensibly say, to them, is, Look, I gather you've had supply problems with Yeah. Yeah. Cos I was there when it happened. And s n a look you won't have supply problems with us. Mhm. And you could say, look what we've done with . Yeah Competitors of yours. Yeah. Competitors of yours, wanted bearings in a week, we got 'em bearings in a The problem the problem is that's happened with the design people. Yeah? Yeah. I have been given Roy , the dra the engineering the the senior designer, Dennis er Kev who's our Mm Mm. he was a development manager, I've been giving 'em earache for the last year and a half, saying, you are falling behind man. We're up and running with , we've got the test rig going, new spindle bearings up, we're pushing it. Yeah? Yeah. And it's taken that long for Dave to get his arse in gear and he's a so slow. He's he's he's been reluctant to do anything because he's had other things to do. Right. But Malcolm in in the end got him to do something . Who who who are the who's the boss of these erm wankish buyers? Richard was the team leader, he's the guy for me to work on . I know I could do it Who's his boss? Who's his boss? Well Peter but er Who's Peter . Peter 's the group er materials manager. But I wouldn't. He's not one that you can lean on. Er to wh actually leave it with me because Richard 's the guy. And Sally is taking over from David, it's a handover period. Right. Because Sally's not she doesn't understand one end of a bearing from another. Right. She used to do a bit of part time buying from the accounts department. Yeah yeah. She's come down now to take over buying and she thinks Dave's a wanker. A prat. Yeah? Right. And I can get Richard and and Sally interested Right. but David's sat there at the minute in the background. Right. Now Yes wait What I need to do is get him out the way. till he's out of the way, Right. and suggest to your Sally Yeah. that you on on one of your visits it would be a very good idea if you sat down with her and the engineering pal Yeah, and Roy. Yes? Yeah. And you have a c not not necessarily with not necessarily with the boss No no mm. Yeah. But just the the the buyer Mm. and the engineer. Right. And s and begin to drive them with a consolidated plan. Look wh you're in this business for a long time, things take an awful long time to happen in this world Mm. Mm. you know that, I know that. So we've got to get our plans sorted out. I want to help you do that. No Sally's new at the job, we've been working at this for for on on the technical front for some time, now let's just sit down and and work out what we're gonna do. Is that alright? Yeah. Yeah, so try and bring those two together Mm. because if if you do that, and it begins to erm o occur to her and if she's fairly bright Mm she doesn't seem daft yeah. She's not clever cos she's bearings , Erm it it it no she doesn't seem engineering clever. No. But she's not daft. No but but you're gonna help them. Yeah yeah. You're going to your object in life is to help her do the job better. Right. And explain to her. And by sitting down and having a technical and commercial conversation together Mm. you can sort of chair that that Mm. meeting and help her to understand how much we're helping them through this . and appreciate how much else we can do. And and okay if we're a pound or two different. We're forty minutes up the road. Yeah. Yeah. If we can't e e I've had a couple of months of stock on the shelf for 'em. Yeah. In fact I must admit, I hinted to Dave if if linear will do consignment stock for , why shouldn't we if we're only forty minutes away. But I mean that's the last thing I wanna do but Yeah. but even then we could have consignment stock here in effect cos they're only forty minutes away, we could throw 'em in the back of the car and have 'em delivered. Well that's what we've got we've got consignment stock here, it's on our premises Yeah. so they don't have the problem of of of of of Yeah the hassle of stocking it and so on. Yeah. So you know I've just got this David thing and and the thing in the background. I didn't want to tread on toes. Well well you've got a lovely you've got a lovely opportun You've got a lovely opportunity there to sell the non-price benefits. Yeah. Just have a try and h try and set up a c a a a meeting with this Sally and your engineering winger Yeah okay. and don't talk price at all. No. And than at a later stage go bock and have a go at Sally and and remind her of all these good things that you talked about . The problem is we're buttoned down on deliveries on standard bearings cos of the balls up about . Well okay so you've got to talk . you've got to talk your way through that. It's the precision bearings that's really the prize. I mean that's why . Yes. And and and of course now that er now that we've got the total business beginning to operate as one, the chances of letting them down on standard bearings is very much smaller than it ever was before. Yeah. The problem the reason we've let her down on standard bearings is because of this changeover. Mm. Oh yeah. You see it's got nothing to do with the with our No no. competence as a supplier. No. Yeah okay. Alright. I'll give you something to I'm going tomorrow morning there anyway cos Roy's just given me a call, they've got some problems with screw support bearings locking up, but er I'll go over there some time Right. . Yeah . Yeah. . So I'll Sally . Okay, is that happiness? Right, yeah okay. Erm just the one's me main concern. I mean the others you know it's it's what we get and and sort of thing. With them it's it's yeah. Mm. Erm I'm not happy with them and I don't know how you get round it . Knowing what's happening there. Well er at the end of the day it may be one that we're gonna we're gonna lose but erm Mm. If it is Love the ultimate four letter word and were about to use it all over your television screen. Where do you start with love, every body wants to love, every body wants to be loved, every one at some time or another is disappointed by love and while its difficult sometimes talking about it not talking about it can have some really serious consequences, so let's try to get to the heart of it tonight, one hundred women are prepared to share their wisdom if not their secrets, I'd like to start off by seeing if we can differentiate between loving and being in love. Have you ever been in love?, are you now?, button one for yes, button two for no and in this hundred, woof ninety three people have been in love, what, what happened?, I mean what, what how did you know you were in love? How did you know that was, that, that was what it was?, yes Temporary madness can only temporary er, well it does wear off you can't, you can't, you can't sustain it indefinitely and what, what were the symptoms in your case? oh can I remember that far back erm loss of memory? yes definitely that erm loss of common sense certainly. would you agree the ninety three of you, is that what characterises being in love, temporary madness?, any other, no well what then?, yes Er yeah, sorry, I write romantic fictions not just lust yes Being in love I think erm its not something that you have to end it happens to you, its not because er a terribly admire the person I er, your only achievements, its just something that happens and common sense goes out the window. so you suggest that Sandra might be right? something like and there might be something in it yes erm, yes, up there Well I don't agree with that, I think that when your in love with someone you want to be with them all the time, you think about them during the day, you think about them at night, you just want to be with them and usually you like how they look, you like how they talk, they like, you like how they treat you and er to me that's, its wonderful, just has wonderful how many times has this happened to you? many times many times, at one time I thought it would never happen again, I thought this was it forever, but life isn't like that, things happen and it does change. yes It, it is a form of an obsession and it is an excitement and there's a warmth and there's a funniness about it and it just wonderful, better being in love than not being in love surely. mm, yes No I feel er kind a be lost, it depends on what relationship your looking for. I think if its the right one its definitely not lust its every minute admiration for them, just to be with that person. so, so lust is what you feel for the wrong one? That's afterwards yes, I, first meet them, then you can say its lust. there Can you not start with being in love with someone and end up by loving them? Yes it isn't always a drastic ending is it? mm, mm I think its just an extreme form of friendship, you've become extremely friendly with somebody and it can be kind, in love with your, with your girlfriend it don't have to be in love with your boyfriend, you can have you know some body who's a same sex and you've got the same feelings towards them that's, that', that's love is it? its definitely not lust but But there has to be something to trigger the interest in the first place and whatever that is and however mild a form that might be lust, lust might be a more extreme form of it, but there has to be something to interest you in the first place, before you can go on to love, to knowing more about the person and having this in love feeling develop into love. well what is that thing then?, I mean what, what is it that attracts you, you ninety three people who have been in love or are in love, why?, what is what, what, what are the attractive things?, yes You see exactly what you want to see when your in love and you ignore the bits you don't like until there pushed home after long erm bit too much, to being together to often sometimes ruins the love, er loving means you except the person completely for what they are and you don't mind, they are what they are and your, you care for them like that. I actually start off quite good and then right or wrong I mean you find it, god what a pig sitting there maybe picking their nose or nails or, I mean really its that that their all goody goody and then later on you think, this is not for me so then you go and find somebody else and then maybe their just not to my expectations, maybe its because like I love myself without being bull headed or any thing its just that if, I love myself obviously I've got to love somebody else, no I said that wrong. what you mean is you wish you could find one that didn't pick his nose and his nails well exactly yes Which ever way we look at it, its nature's way of keeping us going, its, its what's there to keep us surviving as a species, so its, its very clever, the, it worked, worked, nature worked it out very cleverly indeed that we should have this wonderful passion for someone and it should become love and then we should have children and then it becomes a, the whole cycle and that's, that's how it all goes. so we, are we enhancing a pure biological function or is all this talk of love and In a way I think so, I mean if were quite honest about it but we also see ourselves mirrored in whoever we love we see ourselves mirrored in their eyes which is a very comfortable sort of feeling. what if they, if they love us back? Oh yes well hoping so yes I think its a bit of a simplification to say that its, its nature's way of keeping us going, because actually er ro , the idea that romantic love is the start of a life long relationship that produces off spring is really quite recent, erm for, for most of history er marriage's were on the basis of continuing er lines, continuing property and people had to erm some how or other cope with living with ano another person that might not necessarily have been the person that they would of chosen from love and, and this is still true in many societies and situations now. so were onto marriage, you see I started trying to talking about love and here we are talking about marriage. Let me, let's, let's, let's try a couple of those thoughts, put them to the vote. Do you think being in love is let's call it the mating instinct, is being in love merely the mating instinct operating, button one for yes and button two for no, let's er, let's seal that little lust abate there, well forty seven say yes basically I suppose basically being in love is lust, fifty three say no and what about that, that other point, I mean should you marry for love?, button one for yes and button two for no, should you marry for love?well what very modern people you are, cos eighty two of you said yes, fifteen said no, who said no? I think its possible to fall in love with the same person more than once, you fall in love with them and you get married for that as well as other reasons perhaps, and then you have children and you hardly see them really for the next ten years, at least this is what every one sort of understands and then and then erm and then when you have more time again you can fall in love all over again with exactly the same person, I think this happens to lots of people, which also doesn't happen to a lot of people so you haven't Well it sounds blissful, but of course I mean a lot of terrible things happen in the name of love including crimes, crimes of passion as there romantically called in France, I mean people have killed for love, yes. I found that love went out the window when it was sweaty socks and handkerchiefs and dirty nappies and all this in front of me and I thought well this is not romance this is bloody hard work. And then, and then did it, did it go the way someone suggested that, that, the you fell in love again, I mean Katie said Yes,one , once the children had gone it was different and I think its, I'm a widow now and I think love still remains somewhere. up there I think apart from loving them, you must like them mm, mm and that's the basis, if you like them they'll become your best friend, there's times you don't love them, but you still like them mm, mm, were, were talking about what happens when people who have fallen in love get together and decide to stay together for a bit and its been suggested that marriage can put some strains on er what started off as a very heady mutual experience, if your lucky, let me ask you this, do you think marriage destroys love?, button one for yes and button two for no, does marriage destroy love?, as you understand it mm a few are not sure but thirty people have said yes, who said yes Erm I, I said yes to er marr being married for, for love and I must admit I think, when I fell in love my head completely went some where else mm and my heart went some where else and I think erm, the, the marriage erm, the love in my marriage was definitely killed by an act which my partner did and I would fall into the crimes of passion I think because I mean to, to me he committed the deadly sin of all and that was adultery and I could never forgive him for that and I think that picks up on a lot, many issues which have been raised tonight about you have to have trust in a partnership, you have to give and take and people change and some people can accept all that but I was not willing to do so. So you didn't go on loving him? No, I stopped instantly Yeah, er yes I think the problem is perhaps that when we love that we no , we never love the same degree, the two people don't li , love exactly the same way that in every relationship there is one who loves and one who is loved, one who kisses and one who is kissed and I think perhaps this balance if the relationship is weak, this kind of works it out that, that then they eventually split up, that one goes the other way and the can't stay together. I feel erm personally when I was younger that I was taught about love long before I feel in love sort of idea you know comics, the old movies, gave us expectations about what love was all about and I felt that had a, has a big influence in how yeah, when you grow up you feel, you meet this man and mm, mm it just all starts then were taught And I think about it as well was it a good influence, I mean do you think the magazines and the books did well I don't think so, I mean its getting beyond real perspective I think sometimes. Right now we have, well we've already heard from Sandra who's says she's er, er, a romantic writer and there are some other writer's here Jean erm Margaret, Elizabeth are you, you are you pedalling illusions which are er completely deluding people like Sadie when she was young are you worried that your actually affecting young particularly female minds in a dangerous way? Mm, no I asked for that didn't I? erm what do you think or are you satisfying a market? yes and if you can make somebody think from your writing well that's good. Yes dear Its the, the market is there because people want it and this about er, I think its just too easy to say that people are mislead by them. People live in the real world, their not really going to be influenced, its about as sensible as saying er a Mills and Boon novel for example tells people about love are saying M I five use from Russia with Love as a training manual its the same kind of level of things, people read them because they want to enjoy them, they know that real life's different, but its fun. but your a writer, yes I think this idea that these magazines are read only by the young is totally wrong, er, elderly women go to the libraries and the Mills and Boon's section is one of their favourite places, its got more stock there than any of the more serious fiction, so there must be something in it that is satisfying their need for romance perhaps. mm, mm, yes Yes because I think its a form of escaping Mm, mm as the lady says its not real life, erm is that because real life is very disappointing? yes I think, I think when your reading it, I mean the, the female always gets her man and he's always perfect and er, I mean real life is just isn't like that, so its nice to see that it works out for someone. nice idea. Well actually I think your quite right, but I think the problem is that the older reader reads it for escapism and enjoyment, its, its fun, but I think the younger reader reads it and thinks that's what life is should be like and that's when the trouble starts. Is this your problem?, is this why you ended up with a I think I'm gonna have to read one of these books so, so that that was, that wasn't the case in your, that that wasn't the case for you? no, no no I just feel that even if you have read the book I mean my point would be, I would maybe be reading the book and have a look and say oh god that would be me. I read one once and it was the best comedy I'd ever read in my life. I think there's more to love than just simply romantic love erm, I'm a volunteer campaigner with Oxfam and to me love includes love of my fellow man and fellow women throughout the world and I find it very hard at the moment that millions of people are starving in this world and I feel that I've got to show my love by helping them mm, mm I think that's important. Its my own personal opinion that the only true love and er I have to honestly say I've never heard love here defined as I would as the totally unconditional love that happens between a woman and a child, probably from the moment of birth that bonds them through life, that's the only love that I could ever admit to. That's two different kinds of love though then, love, loving your neighbour I suppose is the widest sense and er and the love between a parent and child, are those more recognisable as, as true love if you like than the kind of romantic love, sexual love that we've been talking about, yes Third kind of love, a bit more flippant, love of chocolate which I was, which I was very worried about because I was told it was a substitute for sex and then I read this amazing article which said no its completely the other way around, sex is when you, you get sex when you don't get enough chocolate. I'm beginning to wonder if we need more words for love, I mean if, if love is the only word we have for chocolate er for your fellow man, for your child and for your, for your partner, is there a prosody of vocabulary here. I, er I was gonna spring another type of love because we all spend a lot of money on it, the love of pets of animals mm, mm and there's a lot of er of what people even leave their, their fortunes to look after some animal and they don't leave it to people like er the lady sitting here who are, folk, folk are starving, but then its because people are needed and people are needed by their children, but there also needed by their men folk and I think its when they turn to being a mother to their men that, you know, even the, the love that they have, er whether its been a sexual love at one time, er friendly love becomes a very caring love and er I think that's what we all remember erm those of us who have lost our husbands, that would like to have that, that part back again mm, mm of being needed, and being er allowed to care for someone up there I think the mother and child love isn't always pleasant and I think that's quite worrying to some mother's if they can't love their child in the way that people expect them to. Sheena, can I be the odd one out and say I've been in love with one man for forty five years, I haven't heard any body saying any thing very nice about that, I would like to say its wonderful. oh I Here, here there, here, here they, they, a lot of them say, I don't know if you are the odd one out I mean there are No I quite agree, I also agree with the lady who said that one of the important things is that you like the person, I well speaking from experience, I started out liking somebody mm, mm for whom that I had to decide whether I was going to marry him or give him up and decided I couldn't give him up so I married him and was extremely happy and was shattered when he died and I, I, a, it went from you know I, I never real , thought I would be as happy, could be as happy as I was mm er, but I quite agree one person er there's nothing, nothing greater. Yeah I'm, I'm interested that that so many of you go from love to marriage as er swiftly as the horse and carriage similarly would suggest, I mean it, every one's experience of love is, is different, every body here is, we've been talking about love between er men and women, but there's also love between women and women which we haven't talked about at all. Do you think society er smiles on all forms of love or do you think some kinds of love and loving are, are actually seen as being lesser than others there, there seems to be less sympathetic for er I mean, yes Well you've just got to look at section twenty eight, now section twenty five, how like we are being discriminated against how even like sorry, erm your not like getting start again, start again getting attacked in pubs you know like that's happened to me, being verbally assaulted in the street has happened to me because I am with my lover who is a woman, who publicly I cannot show like that love, publicly you know cos oh I'm scared of violence you know, I like my face the way it is. who has threatened you? Men basically feel really erm threatened and intimidated like by women loving each other or by men loving each other, you know. any other views on that, I mean is that a, yes Its just the very fact that erm there's no equivalent to marriage for lesbian's and gay men, it means that society is looking down on it. do you think there should be? yes Not so much now I don't think. I, I, I feel that erm a bit like yourself, what I object is the fact that its again we use the illusion of love and the actual wording of love mm, mm conjures up images and I just object to the fact that people impose on us, degrenality, I mean I, I think lesbian's and gay men have got a right to their life style as we have and I don't think we should be actually imposing and I think that's what a lot of society and what people come out with does er more or less we don't agree with that and its wrong and its objectional Its not so bad now either way, it was years ago always look down on people like that but not so much now oh I can assure you I work, I work in a women's unit and I can assure you its still frowned on by lots of people. I was gonna say its interesting to hear you saying that its men who attack you, but again with gay men its men who attack them. I, I've never really heard of women attacking lesbian women or women attacking gay men, its usually if there's a if there's a row something or other because the male of the species seems the one who's been, feels very, very threatened at the by there own people masculinity or, or the lost of a er female companion or something. Jacky Can I er, compound the issue more? mm, mm and, and say there is again disrespect or whatever for, I don't know what to call them transracial relationships mm, mm because that's another problem and I think maybe people haven't you know like addressed that. can, can I just move on to one other issue that I'd like to look at er, because I think we've covered that reasonably for the moment which is, how, how will you find love?, ninety three people said their, their were in love, seven said they weren't, of those seven were, you've never been in love, was it, have, have you wanted to be?, would any of the seven who voted no at the beginning, yes Not really ah you didn't fancy it? no, I'm too in my, I like my independence too much, yes. any one else yes I think I was er, I thought I was in love a few times, but erm in retrospect it was lust so that's, that's, thought that half of you being in love was, was lust any way. Where, where do you find love?, if their are people out watching this programme tonight who would actually rather be in love Love finds you eh? love finds you don't give up hope it finds you thank you Also like, why, why, do people want to find love?, like is it maybe lulling them into a false sense of si security erm and I think that it is really important as like one woman said earlier on that its really important to love yourself first, cos how can you give any body any thing mm, mm I think love is like, when somebody loves you, loves you for just being yourself aha I, I think to me that would be the greatest respects you also yeah, no matter who you are. Sadie And when you do find its, its beautiful up there sharing your life with someone, you want to be with that person and you know that if any thing happens you've got that person to rely on and I think if your alone you don't have that. If you can find that person, yes. Yeah well I did because my husband before were married was my bus driver on the S M T buses he certainly found me and from there we just went from strength to strength and erm were still have together. lo , yes If your looking for love and your absolutely desperate there's always a thing called date line which I believe is very successful and I know at least two people who've got very happy marriages from that, so really? oh yes advertising? yes, advertising it seems incred incredible to me, but erm if any, if any thing I haven't tried that but thank you well no, er lets put, lets, lets, lets put that to the vote, erm have you ever advertised for love?, either through a dating agency or of course many many newspapers carry erm, what, what they called, lonely hearts columns, now its alright you can vote, I'm not going to pick on you particularly because er so few, so few of you have admitted to doing it, well five people here have, dare I ask if any one would like to say whether or not it was successful, yes. Well yes and no, erm, every body that seemed to get involved there seemed to be some strange thing missing erm, like finance for instance oh you know, they were willing to share what I had but could give nothing financially in return. I don't know, I'm very sceptical. you've heard a lot of wisdom on this programme tonight yes I didn't advertise for a partner but I went to the single's and divorcee club and met my second husband and its magic the second time around. yes, any other yes Hi, I haven't advertised myself but I'm aware of friends who have and the biggest problem seems to be that when they respond to the ads and then they meet the gentleman in question who's described themselves as six feet two who's blonde and extremely handsome turns out to be five foot two, dark hair and really not all that good looking after all, and so the problem with the advertising is that you know how one person sees themselves and advertises themselves not always the way they actually appear so its er pitfall ah so the message there is erm there's short dark men out there if that's your fancy Is there advertising for a partner I mean is it, can't, does it come under trade description act? can they be, can they be sued afterwards okay well I think we'll er, we'll probably have to stop this as we've run out of time, let me, let me ask the people here one final question, are you in love right now?, button one for yes and button two for no my goodness, sixty two people are rushing home, the other thirty eight are staying for a coffee good night. And could you tell me when and where you were born, please? Yes, I was born in Lane at Lane on the eleventh November, nineteen seventeen. And erm could you describe the house you were born in at all? Yes, it was a tt a very large semi-detached house with erm a smallholding attached. My father was a miner but loved his garden and we had a big smallholding Mhm. all garden, and at the bottom was a streamlet, then had trout in it.. So did you live with your parents, in your both your parent in your early life? Yes, erm, that was where I was born and er then when I was five my father erm hit a bad patch and he sold the house and er he decided to become a shoemaker in Baysford. And he and my mother had a disagreement about this and er the result was that my father became very ill and I went home to Grandma. And you you lived with your grandparents then? Yes, and then my father, when he had recovered a bit, he came to live with Grandma. Mm. And we I had a brother, a younger brother, as well. Mm. Were there? Did you ever get any feeling of sort of distaste from anybody about about y your mother leaving home? No. No. My father was shall we say, well respected and er no, there was no There was never any query about it. Mm. So, you lived with your grandparents then. Was your grandfather a miner as well? Yes, my granda this was my second grandfather because my gra my own grandfather had died, before I was born, and my grandmother had married again and he was a he was the arm-setter at Colliery. Mm. And your father was a miner at this time, as well? Yes. And also in the house was Uncle my grandfather 's brother, Uncle Bill, who was er a winder at Colliery. Mm. So everybody was based at at , then? Yes. Do you have many memories of well, the men in the house, coming home from the pit, and talking about the conditions? M m yes, they talked about work or work , and erm, but not about conditions particularly, and was a medium pit for conditions. They talked about conditions at which was a wet pit, and er how Hucknall was much better, anyhow and things like that. But great talk about Union activities. What were the Union activities? Er well, there was the highly immoral thing called overtime, erm if you had too much overtime you was keeping someone out of job. Er you wanted a fair number of hours and you wanted a fair wage. Er the Union was very parochial . Mm. So the men in the house were all members of Nottingham Miners Association? Yes. What about the General Strike? I suppose the strike would be an early Well memory for you? Yeah. The General Strike,it's a strange memory because I had to walk down Pad er now, erm I forget what the proper word is now, er it's called Walk, now . sounds terr er terrible to me,because Pad was the way to Colliery, the last half mile along a dirt track. And er Granddad was on maintenance, of course, and I used to have to take his meals, so I used to go past the er picket, along with many other people who were busy coal out of the pit tip . Er the picket was not as militant as it is now, and there were the talks of scabs, and things like that. But the Strike was, well we had the pit ponies up, and er we always used to go and feed them, and then we went, of course, to chapel for meals. I won't say soup kitchens because they weren't that at all, I mean, they weren't as civili You had a civilized meal, I know you sang grace before it, and said grace afterwards, but you had knifes, forks and spoons and chapel china. Mm. So how? Do you remember how your grandfather and father felt about the Strike? Erm yes, they er, they felt they'd been let down by the Railway men, I think, or someone else at the beginning at the Strike, and they were out on a limb but er they'd got to make the best of it. Mm. Erm I think they thought they'd been let down at the end of it. Erm I was taken to h hear A J , the miners leader at the time, he was the best type perhaps, a Welsh Chapel Parson, erm on the recreation ground and on the marketplace, when thousands turned up, Mm. attend . How how did people feel about , because well if you read read Alan Alan book, then he's criticized very strongly as being too militant, and r well really Cri preferred to him. How how did the the miners? Well the miners er were middle of the road, as lots of miners are now, but er probably more middle then because, well, the Colliery Chapel and the Co-op were a way of life. Mm. What about ? , of course, was a chapel man and er I think they saw, or some of them saw him er a in him a way round, out of things, and, of course , he did deals with the collieries to get people back to work, and whilst families had enjoyed six months in the gardens and doing all sorts of strange things, erm the men mainly wanted to get back to work, because they saw time running out. Mm. W was the Strike a period of hardship particularly? It was hardship in this, that er, perhaps the hardest time came after it when er, well it was called public assistance then, social security payments had to be payed back. All the things that you'd had during the Strike, but things did get left, and er tradesmen were very considerate, there was no chasing for m hard for money and er I know we had an insurance that wasn't paid and we used the book to have an imaginary shilling on a horse each day. Which put me off gambling for good, because whilst we won every day, it seemed, we'd lost a lot of money at the end of the year. Theoretically we hadn't done, but, of course, we hadn't played anything, but it was good exercise. Mm. Well moving onto social life, what are your childhood memories of of playing and with your your father and playmates, etc? Well, of course, er f er Fathers and grandfathers er took er the youngster a walk . Er there was walking, there was cricket and er billiards, erm street games, things you can't do now because of traffic. But a lot more, I feel sorry for my grandchildren, where they can't have as much fun as I used to have, kicking a tin. Mm. Did did church figure as prominently in your early life ? Oh cha chapel Later on, I mean er you know when you got to ten, eleven,ch there were so many things at chapel, I mean from learned dissertations, I mean the gentlemen from the University, here. Er Prof and , used to come and talk to the Guilds and things, er the men's meeting. And er then there were the concerts or the pantomimes or the operettas. I always finished up as a bandit, or a pirate, I don't know quite why. I couldn't sing. But equally they did Silas Marner and er Merchant of Venice, a good standard, too. So is th is a idea of a chapel being more in the community than just religion? Is that ? Oh yes, it was a very much a community centre, I mean,we played billiards at chapel, and various chapel people had billiard tables un under their dining table and er we u just go and play billiards. Going back to the your mining background, erm after the Strike were were your father and grandfather members of both the Nottingham Miners Associa Association and the industrial union? Erm, yes. My grandfather became involved because 's union er made a big thing out of compensation cases. Compensation had to be fought for, it wasn't a matter of right, and a piece of a very small piece of coal fell down the shaft, the onsetter's the man at the bottom, and it through his hand and he got compensation and then my father was sacked for the shovel. Too much of a coincidence,I'm afraid, to our minds. Do you think the two were connected, then? Oh, we're sure they were but er this was the thing with a private collier company where you had er a sort of, not quite chairman, of the colliery sitting there at the top o in the office, watching everybody come and go. And er after that, my father went with the rounds with the collieries, where you had to belong to union to go to them, and Colliery didn't accept what was called the old union. Yeah was? The Pit was the Colliery ? Pit as my n Pit was colliery, then there was , and then, of course, there were the pits and the pits, on the edge. Er but , Collieries as they became, they didn't acc That was Lancaster, they didn't accept er the old unions, so they erm they belonged Both I can't on Friday night I used to the Methodist's chapel to pay the old union subscription, and to the West to pay 's. What was your father and grandfather's attitude to authority in the pit? Were they very resentful about, well, these dismissals? Very resentful about that,, but er no, er I think er tt some of the pi It was Er not authority in the pits, they disliked the co-owners, erm one or two, and respected Pit always had a respectable authority er and ownership, I mean, stemming from the Quaker one. But er and the other pits where personalities were involved were not quite so happy. But er the managers and er and the The manager of the pit and then the underviewers, and the rest, they were people who had worked their way up generally, and were accepted. So had the idea of the coal owner Er well at the end of the century, the the coal ow owner and liberal MP sort of connections in ? Well was pit, was and er they came to the family, that was someone at Mansfield, came back to open chapel bazaars, and all sorts of things, and particularly for the adult school. Yeah, going on to schools, which w which schools did you attend? I went Street erm, which was just next door to Grandma's, only over the wall,. And er then to 's Street, which was called School, for a year and then to 's, when it opened in nineteen twenty nine. Do you have many memories of your, well, early education? Street, yes, because er you went er you had a marvellous thing called Nature study, come geography, come everything, where you went for walk. But equally,the first thing I remember was my number in the infant school, when I was number fifty five, and er there were fifty eight of us in the class, and one lady kept order. . They were very ordered classes I'm afraid . Was much learnt, or? Yes, oh yes, you learnt quite a lot and er much depended on er the teacher, of course, they weren't as bound as er teachers had been. Mm. We heard discussions of that. But erm you learnt quite a lot, and you learnt the basics very, very thoroughly. I mean, you marched round the playground until you could knew that twelve fourteens were a hundred and sixty eight. Which was when the top class in the infants, at seven, got in.. Di Was there any sort of education outside school, say, Sunday Schools, or? Sunday Schools, er, mainly was er in best chapel tt tradition, I suppose, of er bible study and also of the social conscience of the Methodist. And er to me it presented a great opportunity,I I j I won quite a lot of books. I always remember asking for Lawrence In Arabia, as a Sunday School prize. . And they weren't the Victorian prizes, that I won,I we got them for getting through an exam, because you could write or something, and er tt well, they were quite good books, and it was one way of getting a book. Mm. W what about Street school? Street School, I was th there on only there a year, and the headmaster came in one day, he was another Liberal politician. Headmasters were always members of the council, in those days, and they were always tended to be La Liberal or Labour, which I the present Labour would say was very pale pink. And the headmaster at er Street school, Joseph , was a Labour member of council, and Joseph was tended to be more Liberal. He came in one day and asked what M C C stood for, and I've always known a lot of useless information, so I could tell him, so I was then dispatched everyday to the erm radio shop in the High Street, to get the cricket scores in Australia. And then he asked me, he said, Well, have you read that notice on the board about er scholarships? I said, Yes, but there's no hope. He says, Well, your aunt was a teacher,co you could go teaching. You're na you're not going down the pit? I said No, no-one at home was, Everyone at home had said, You're not going down the pit. And he entered me for the scholarship,, and er, I won. Mm. I incurred his displeasure on one occasion, there was a young lady sat on the form in front, we had those, where you sat in pairs, on the iron sort of things. She had plaits, and I tied them together, on to th behind the bar, and he he caned me.. Mm. I suppose caning was a a more frequent form of discipline, in those days? Caning was, er yes, erm. If you asked for trouble, you got it. Would you ev would you ever get any comeback from you your father, if you got told told off at school ? If you got in trouble at school, you got in trouble at home. No if and buts.. About going t about getting the Henr scholarship to , had only just opened then , That hadn't it? It hadn't er I went when it opened. We were er before then there was the , the school just over the wall to Street, was the Centre. It was a pupil, teacher centre. It started life as a technical school, which it was given by subscription, mainly the colliery company, for scientific education. But used during the day by the Education Committee as a pupil-teacher centre. And up till then, you went to you got your scholarship, you went to the tu pupil- teacher training centre and then you became a teacher. Erm if you passed , erm you did a stint and then you came to College, Nottingham for your teaching ticket. So But was without a a secondary school Yes. for quite a long period, wasn't it ? Yes. Yes, until Annie came,m after the war. Was? How did the community feel about that?? They felt strongly ? They felt strongly about it, but er was only twelve minutes away, on the railway, quarter of an hour on the bus. And of course, in spite of everything that's being said, the thing about was that because of the two railway stations you could get anywhere in half or three quarters of an hour. You could get to I know Graham went to , which is way out, other went up the Kimberley and that area, and other went to Sutton. And everybody could get home very quickly because of the railway stations that were there. So did you travel to school on the railways? We tr I travelled to school on the railway one bit, when they gave us season tickets, because with a scholarship you got your fares paid. And then they started paying your bus fare, at the end of the week, and so I decided I could walk. . Er fourpence return was two mars bars, and quite a lot of us walked. Were there many boys from at ? Oh yes, there were Well, all the erm boys from up to about the fifth form, in the old pupil-teachers training centre went, er was formed by joining that and school, they took boys from there . . And er then there was the new intake of ourselves, and er there were probably fifty or sixty the first year. Erm, only three scholarship, but then of course, you got the er governors free places, which were nearly the same, and then the number who were being paid for. D s So did you notice any sort of class differences within the school? Very little, after the first week . Erm uniform's a great leveller, or a I I'd never had such marvellous clothes. Erm I know a friend of mine, and my ambition, then, was to wear a collar and tie and wear half-shoes, as opposed to a jersey and boots. Erm now, of course, we'd wear a jersey and boots quite happily , but er I did get a grant for clothing because otherwise there was no way of goin of accepting a scholarship. And erm the immediate reaction, at home, was to say, Well, you can't go. And the headmaster said,quietly, Let's talk about it. And er so I had clothes from , and er I learnt what clerical colo clerical grey was,and er, also what house shoes were, erm you know, slippers for wearing in school. So tt and of course, the other thing I learnt there was that you had dinner the wrong way round, you didn't have your pudding first, to fill you up.. So What other memories do you have of of , then? Oh, very happy memories really, we erm we had two or three masters from , erm one was the Sunday School superintendent, again this chapel and the son-in-law of the headmaster of Street, George Edward ,, as he's known to thousands. He must be rolling round, cos he was the maths master, he must be rolling round in his grave, as people say percentage, because he if you said percentage he yelled at you, Percentage of what? . Erm but you'd failed him, if you didn't get a distinction in School Certificate maths, or arithmetic. So h how old were you when you left school? Sixteen. Which was, I mean, very late for those ? No. No. We left er the secondary school, or as they were then, the grammar schools, at sixteen. You left the other one at fourteen. I could have stayed at Street till I was fourteen , I could have stayed at Street until I was fourteen, and then you would've been out. And er but at er there you'd got to go for the other two years, and some parents were rather wondering whether that left you late in the queue for a job, because jobs were very difficult. Or whether you were going to earn enough, later on. Mm. How did you go about finding a job? Wrote hundreds of letter,er to the people you wanted to do, because I'd never expected having to find a job, I must admit, because the year before I took School Certificate I had got a Naval a artificer apprenticeship, but then I got kicked in the eye playing rugby, and failed a medical. Something I'd never to do, so I had to settle down and get School Certificate, which I got with my matric exemption, and people from did. It er you were taught, and er I ju I'd say it was as liberal a education as you get now, but you'd got to get your maths, you'd got to English, you'd got to get a language, you'd got to get a science, and Mm. it was broadly based. And so what was the job found ? And eventually I found a job er as assistant to the er clerking to the rating officer, who had also been a member of t , who was a member of the chapel, and er knew I was looking for a job and er, I hadn't written to him cos I didn't know this one was coming up. And so he told you about it, rather than? Yes, he told me, he said Ah well, have you got a job yet? I said No, not yet, erm I'm awaiting replies from so many. So I accepted a job with him, and then I got two offers the next day, one with the savings bank, I think it was, and one with someone else.. And what what payment did you get? Ten shilling a week. Would it have been better had you gone to the other jobs? Or would it have been about the same? I don't know erm, probably about the same, then. It was about it was the same as I'd probably got if I'd have gone to the pit at fourteen.. But er nevertheless you felt that you wanted to go into Well you were probably to over qualified for going into the pit, weren't you? Never thought about the pit, I'd been There was no question about that, it was something that was not going to last. I mean, the pits would be worked out, according to the talk at home, and anyhow, we wanted to live in Dartmouth. Mm. So what did you actually do in the rating office? Well, I wrote out births, deaths, marriage certificates, and er then measured up houses on the rating side, erm worked them out for evaluations. Erm used to go down to weddings, at the register office on a Saturday morning, and hope that they'd turn up without witnesses, because then you had to be compensated,, for giving your service. How much would you get for? I occasionally got ten shillings, which was more than a week's as much a week's wages. Erm but er I learnt to write a fair hand, erm without too many flourishes, which er because I was always told that somebody might be looking at this in a hundred years time, or more. Mm. In going to measure houses, did you have to actually go out and visit houses ? Yes, oh aye I Yes, we You had to measure, and in those days, the councils were grouped in what they called Assessment Committee Areas, and each were wor making sure the other areas were using the same sort of basis. And I remember, one afternoon, going out with the whole of the rating committee, to houses at Eastwood and Beeston, and other places, and m in effect measuring them by counting how many nine inch bricks they were across the front and back, to make sure that, you know, nobody was subsidizing anybody else. Mm. Erm and you went in houses, you saw them. You know, learnt about construction. Mm. Did you see much of people's living conditions? Particularly poor living conditions,? Oh you saw er you'd seen this because er you had friends all over, I mean, the fact that you went to didn't er tt get rid of all your friends. Mm. Erm you had friends everywh , in all sorts of places, you didn't dally, shall we say, in some of them that might have been a bit smelly. Mm. And others that you wouldn't have gone in anyhow, but they were areas. But generally I saw more living conditions later on, er when er I started rent collecting for the council. Mm. And the rating officer was part time with the council, and one day, a rent collector was taken ill, and then I was given a five shilling bag of copper and told to go and collect these When? When was this? Er it would be nineteen thirty seven. Mm. . So that was Thirty six? Thirty seven? Thirty seven, perhaps . That was during well,th the end of the Depression, really? Well it was still very depressed in the coal trade, you were they were doing this marvellous thing called three on and three off. If you worked four, you were worse off than if you worked three, you know, you'd got three days on th er and you got you got three days dole, er unemployment pay. Mm. And er so times were still hard, it wasn't until they, let's say until thirty ei thirty eight, that the depression finished in the coal field, when they started building up from then. And of course, this was the time of the means test, when young men from who er lived at home, their income was taken into account, in assessing how much Dad or Mum couldn't get. And er they took themselves off to Coventry and to and to Luton, to the motor trades. And quite a few went. What were the? What What? was the sewage conditions and the the water supply like in the thirties in ? Good.. Because there'd been arguments about it earlier on in the century, hadn't there? Oh there had, had er it h erm had a marvellous water supply and it had a good sewage it had a good sewage disposal system. But erm sewage was to be one of the things I shall never forget, later on. Whilst I was working for the council, someone came to ask and we had some new o new officer appointed and he was very worried about getting ca er p permission from the council to launch a sewer scheme that was going to cost a quarter of a million pounds, a very large amount in those days. And the older members of the staff, and there weren't many, I mean the total s council office staff was only about thi was twenty or so, and erm more men were employed outside, than anything. And they said, Well you know how to draw up your agenda, and you'll have something that's contentious, in this case it was the supply of stationery from three local stationers, from printi local printers. And they argue that half the night, and then er your thing will go through on the nod, if you get it in before t half past nine when they er standing order say the council meeting closes. Mm. S so Huck Urban District Council was separate from Nottingham wasn't it ? Yes. Yes. Er Nottingham had about three attempts to pinch , and er the last one they were told to put their own house in order, first, because conditions were so much better than in the city. Erm mainly as a result,I I contend, that earlier on the Quaker coal owners encouraged home ownership, has this very high proportion of er owner-occupiers. Tt Er in nineteen seventy four, I think, at least about three quarters of them were . Mm. There are no there were no big property owners, no big coal, I mean the colliery company only owned sixty houses, I think, which were sold to the tenants, er when the lease ran out. W what about the the health service in Nottingham? In ? Er in ? Sorry. Erm health service? Erm what do you mean? The Doctors? Mm. Oh well you had er some very well loved Doctors, we had the black doctor, Dr , he was er West Indian, he took over from another one, Dr , who was also West Indian, I gathered, I never knew Dr . But Dr was a good cricketer, erm he also wrote a very You could also read what Dr put, and he was also said that he sent people to hospital very quickly. Erm then there was the er and he m Dr , and er Dr and then it became Dr , who is still there. Erm Dr was the medical officer of health, part time, and Dr was a character, he always had a white carnation, he rode round in a carriage on occasions, and he er wrote copperplate. That's when I had to put these things onto dea er put death certificates into th their the doctor's certificate into English , erm they were pretty good,t others weren't so g , er you know, weren't so good. I have been accused, too, of saying that, You tell your Doctor, I'd know what you, I knew what you'd die of,because they had their own things, their own pet hobbyhorses. Erm myocardio degeneration and chronic bronchitis, and erm probably quite accurate, but er short of breaking your neck I think you, bronchitis was the killer, in . Mm. So yo you had to fill in births and deaths certificates? Oh yes, I had to co copy them, and er you know, you got these things, but the registrar he was , you know, he was man. Mm. Have you s ? Did you see many changes in , over the pre-war era? Yes erm during the h the Probably one of the reasons I was set on to start with, was the tremendous amount of house building. I mean, John , who was a local builder, sold a house a day for five years, which is some building. And you can see John, whichever way you go into , you'll see John types E and G, the semi-detached on Road, Lane and Road, and Road. You'll see them everywhere. And one or two people are very honest, they call the House,because they borrowed the money from Halifax Building Society .. What about transport in ? Transport? Oh well now it isn't a patch on what it was. Erm yo there was so many trains into Nottingham, into Victoria at twelve minutes, it took you thirty minutes into the Midland Station, having called at and , and all sorts of places on the way. They were, first of all, there were and 's buses, direct and the bus. And then, of course, come along and er for while there was a competition with chasers over the forest, you know one running either just in front, or just behind the other, sort of thing. And then, tt er Reynolds took ove er Reynolds went and er Trent took over and then Duttons went, and Trent took over again. What about? Did many people have cars in Hucknall? No, very few, erm in Lane, which is now in an estate agent's parlance, erm a desirable part of the town, they used to be Mr the local the solicitor, of Castlegate, and his wife used to drive him to the station, to catch the train to Nottingham. She also meet him m met him at lunchtime, because the steam coach used to come out from town, and bring the business men, the wealthier one, out. Mm. And I suppose, seeing as it was so short, it was worth coming home? Yes. In that sort ? Oh yes, er he could er he could still have an hour lunchtime, and er only be out of the office, say, an hour and three quarters. Erm moving on a l a little bit, what was your social life at the time? My social life, I suppose, ticked round chapel, then it ticked round er cycling and er walking. My brother tt he er had a bicycle and then he joined up, er we did have a hectic time, he could make anything go. Mm. He built a motorbike out of scrap bits he found on the tip, which didn't endear him to Grandma, or anyone else. And then joined so he joined the army, and I was left with this bicycle, and a friend of mine said, How about coming with us on Sunday, you can skip chapel this Sunday, and we'll go out er we're going into Derbyshire, and I finished up on Ack's Edge. I'd never ridden a bike, hardly, before. But then they had a cycling club, at chapel, and so we tended to go Saturdays, and then I started walking and youth hostelling. We went youth hostelling for m the sort of the chapel choir, after When you grew up in chapel, then you were either found a job teaching, in the Sunday School, or you went into the choir. Well I went in a choir, I could never sing, and I still can't, and er the choir used to go out quite a lot, and er we cycled and we youth-hostelled, even as w or in on working parties, at some of the peak hostels. What about erm, you were involved in the amateur dram dramatics ? Well this er came through the same thing, the Youth Hostels Association, we had a visit from Gyp some German ones who did m play reading in hostels, and er some of ours went back there, and the Youth Hostels Associations, they had a play reading group, and er I joined that. As I say, I'd al been in things at chapel, Silas Marner and things, but er this was another thing, and of course, that's where I met my wife, at er Row, which is the boys' clu was the boys' club's Headquarters. And er we did one or two plays there and Mm. in the old S St 's Church hall on Street, which has now gone. Would Robin have acted with you, then? Robin , er William was at school, one year behind me and I played with him, but Bill wasn't very er big. Erm I'm amazed now when I see him on television as to how big he is, because he wasn't as a youngster, and he was fragile and er we ribbed him because, in those days, you had an attache case for a school bag, and your initials were put on it. And er, he had the lot, W H M B, you see, and er he wasn't Robin, then. .. And er this was one of things that my old boss, when people came into name their children, he said Now remember, these initials will go on case, perhaps, one day, and you don't want S A P, or something like that. And if they came in a with name that was unusual, er Now, are you sure? Do you want a moment to think about it ? You know, when somebody came up with Mehetabelle, or something like that. Er but no, er Robin and the local dramatic club was er very, very good, you're in the market for money, putting on things in the chapel, or in the Co-op hall, at . Hit-the was usually done in the Co-op hall, and er they were good. Mm. I mean, people didn't pay money just out of,you know, loyalty, completely. What about the Spanish Civil War? Do you remember? Well, at that time my best pal went to the pit, his mother wouldn't let him enter in th for scholarship, but he did happen to come here for, Well, he seemed to always get a day's day release from the year dot, I think, and er eventually he got some A levels. He got his trade unions things, and his deputy's certificate, and that. But then, he got some A levels and he's finally got an Open University degree, good luck to him. And er we used to go occasionally to W E A meetings, in the library at , and er I wasn't a member of his class, but I did once go and hear Hugh , when he was at Nottingham. And er then er we had er a tutor who was very, very keen and we nearly all went to er the Spanish Civil War, and we took er the er paper for ages, erm and er But one of the group did go, Frank from , went, but the were always Communist, they never claimed to be Labour. But er they were always er well-remembered, and er w Spanish Civil War through, I suppose nowadays, you call them fringe newspapers, but there was this paper we used to get at the tim at the time It wasn't the er Morning Star, or even it's predecessor, erm but you got a paper and you sort of heard the other side. Erm er, very concerned as to what it was going to lead up to up, and hoping, you know, against hope that's you weren't going to be involved in anything like that. Mm. And my Grandmother certainly wouldn't have wanted me going She had er her feet very firmly on the ground. I hadn't realized till long, long afterwards, until she after she was dead, that er she and her brother came to work, when the Midland Railway came to Nottingham, they left Norfolk, and he's got a horse, as a carter, and they walked from Holt, in Norfolk, to Nottingham, in search of a job. And they went to live at , and Wh what about the Sec Second World War? The Second World War? Well, originally er I was involved in er registration, because there, with this very loose connection with the registrar, by now I was full time with the council, as rating assistant and rent collector. And er I got involved on national registration and er, on one occasion, we were working, we'd got a deadline and we were working through the weekend, and my wife came to pick me up at what she thought was a reasonable time, at one o'clock on Saturday, found she was given a cup of tea and set to work, and we finished, going home about midnight.. So would you would you work overtime a lot ? Oh yes, you worked overtime, for which there was no pay, I mean, it didn't count er You see things , you know, there was less structure about it, then, erm and you could have ti if you wanted time off for something, you'd probably have got it fairly easily, but er it didn't seem to be the great arguments that you've had since. And of course, er by nineteen forty erm well, Christmas thirty nine, I'd got my calling up papers. Were you on th ? You were on the point of getting married, by that time,? No. I We'd talked about it and said Well, we're not going to get married whilst war's on, as er probably the generation before, had said in nineteen fourteen, and er we got married eventually on the first of December, nineteen forty. Erm when one of our friends, who was a writer for the local press, headlined it, The cutter who walked a thousand miles together, before he got called up.. Was this because of your rambling? Yes. So that's the ? Yes. What what were your experiences of the war? Absolutely chaos,I suppose . Erm I had expressed a preference for the Navy, so I was sent to Plymouth, to join the Devonshire regiment, at Mill Bay docks, which was a an infantry regiment and machine gun core regiment. And er it was very reg a regular come territorial battalion, and I was one of five foreigners from up country, erm you thought yourself as er an absolute native in grass skirts, waving a machete, or something. And er but er we got to know them eventually, but for the first few weeks, whilst we were in Devon, I think the five foreigners sort of got landed. We'd got nowhere to go at weekends, and they disappeared. . Erm but then we slept under every hedge, I think, along the south coast, till we lost our machine guns, collected anti-tank guns, and eventually were transferred to the Royal Artillery, but still with this county pride of Devon, which I'd never met before. In Nottinghamshire, we don't have county pride, to the sense of Yorkshire and Devon, you know, where it's absolutely m something that really matters. Mm. Erm Devon, erm and their distaste of their neighbours, or distrust of Cornwall, I know, on one occasion, in the first fortnight, I think, we were in the Y M at Devonport, and er there was an argument with the Duke of Cornwall's light infantry and er well, I know we got out of a back window of the Y M fairly smartish, erm avoiding trouble. But er tt erm tt again, er I had a spot of luck, I suppose, erm at one stage we had a very ex-Indian service bloke who ha as quartermaster, had thrown a typewriter through the window, he was known to do daft things like that. I happened to be able to put it together again, it wasn't too difficult, and er so I got the job of being clerk-cum-what-have-you. It didn't get me out of very much, except a few guard duties and er I collected one stripe, and then two, and I did the pay and all sorts of things. Eventually we m , when we became a mobile, self-propelled anti-tank unit, erm my office er thing for paying everything, was a metal table, shall we say, on the inside of a truck, that was about one foot by two feet. And on that there was a typewriter and you could send signal messages, and everything. But typewriters we had problems with because, if they went in for repair, you never got them back from the Ordinance Core, and so at one place in Tunbridge Wells we handed a typewriter in and because the army were allowed to buy greaseproof paper, we bought a lot of greaseproof paper which came in the package of a new typewriter. Erm er, nothing changes. I the defendant Doctor David against a decision of the taxing master, taxing master of right, er given on the thirteenth of August nineteen ninety three, whereby the taxing master disallowed interest on plaintiff's bill of the cost in the action for a period from the first of November nineteen ninety one to the twenty seventh of May nineteen ninety three, the defendant in his notice of appeal, claims that the taxing master should have disallowed interest for a longer period, in addition to the period he actually al disallowed int namely there should be additional disallowance for the period from the twenty forth of April nineteen ninety one to the thirty first of October nineteen ninety one or for such other periods as the court deems just. The plaintiffs also appealed against the decision of taxing master right, er and then appealed on the basis that er there should be no disallowance for any interest at all. There is also a further appeal before the court in relation to an application by the plaintiff for disallowance of interest upon the defendant's bill of costs and er it is claimed that if interest is to be disallowed on their bill, interest should also be disallowed on the defendant's bill of costs. So the matter arises in this way, the action that concerns a partnership dispute, er between the plaintiffs on the one hand and the defendant on the other. All the plaintiffs and the defendant were doctors carrying on practice as general medical practitioners at er . It's er unfortunately the case that relations between the partners broke down and this led in due course to proceedings being commenced by the plaintiffs against the defendant in relation to the dissolution of the partners, those proceedings were commenced in nineteen eighty nine,, er in the High Court Chancery Division, there were a number of issues raised in the litigation, one of the matters was a preliminary issue, er concerning the terms of the partnership and that came before er Mr Justice on the eighteenth of February nineteen ninety one, whereby he found in favour effectively of the defendant on that preliminary issue er the plaintiffs it seems were then claiming that partnership, the partnership at will, but Mr Justice held that they were part of the terms of the particular er partnership deed, so the defendants succeeded on that issue, the trial of the action then followed on the twentieth of March nineteen ninety one and er Mr Justice made an order for dissolution of the partnership, he then give various directions for accountant enquiries concerning the partnership and he made orders for payments of costs, now the orders for costs were this, that effectively the defendant was entitled to some costs of the preliminary issue and that the plaintiffs were entitled to costs of the er ma if I may put it this way, the main action, and there was then the provision for, set off for the defendant's costs against the costs ordered to be paid by the defendant, perfectly normal form of order. Now if the matter arises on taxation in this way, it seems that a loan, the trial judgment was given on the twentieth of March nineteen ninety one, a minute of order was prepared and signed by counsel for both the plaintiff and for the defendants and that was forwarded by the defendant's solicitors to the plaintiff's solicitors under cover of a letter dated the twenty third of April nineteen ninety one, er Mr who is the defendant's solicitor in the third paragraph, had a letter wrote as follows I enclose a copy of the draft minute board, approved by Mr , he of course was counsel for the defendant,you are now, you, you were presumably now attend a sealed order . It's er common ground that in fact er no sealed order was drawn up until very considerably later, the sealed order is in fact dated the twenty fifth of May nineteen ninety three. Now between during the period from the decision of Mr Justice in March nineteen ninety one and the issue of the sealed order in May nineteen ninety three, it's clear from correspondence which has been put before me that there were er various negotiations and discussions between the solicitors for the plaintiff and the defendant dealing with the questions of costs and also with the question of a general settlement of the whole action, er it would be appreciated of course that Mr Justice order does not have the effect of determining finally the rights of the parties, erm other than the partnership has in fact dissolved because there were still outstanding issues in particular relating to the premises which were used as the surgery of the premises of the part of the prac of the practice or perhaps I should say former practice. The position was that the plaintiffs effectively retained possession of the surgery premises and the defendant er moved out of the premises and er went and found other surgery premises and er the position as I understand it is that he is carrying on his own practice today from other premises, the plaintiffs are such as now surviving, are still continue to practice from the former part of the premises. In on the fourteenth of July of nineteen ninety three the defendant took out a summons with a view to having all the outstanding matters resolved and er this summons came before erm deputy master on the twelfth of August nineteen ninety three and he gave various directions including an enquiry in relation to how the surgery premises er ought to be dealt with as in court in the winding up of the partnership and that matter went before Mr Justice long in December and he decided those issues and gave directions in relation to and how the premises are to be sold, the effect of the directions very vaguely, is that the premises have to be offered to the partners, if only one of the partners shows any interest then there is provision in the relevant deed for ascertaining the price and this is put to that partner at that price, if more than one partner wishes to buy the premises then there is provision for a fixing of a minimum figure and then each of the partners has to put in sealed offers er and the premises will be sold to the partner, the former partner who put in the last offer, that broadly speaking I think is the substance of Mr Justice order. The position at the moment is that the defendant tells me he would like to acquire the premises because erm a low criticism has, was made of the premises as being suitable for the carry on of the doctors surgery in partner, a doctor's surgery in partnership because no doubt the space and other matters, er the defendant tells me that erm they are perfectly suitable for as it were a sole petitioner to carry on his practice from them and that is why he would like to acquire it. Now the taxation of the plaintiff's bill of costs, came before master er and er in his taxation, it seems, and I'm, I think I'm right in saying it, it seems that erm there is no substantial dispute as to the particular items in the various bills of costs with which he was concerned, it maybe that if there were a discrepancy, he has, he dealt with it and nothing has been said before me today, er to suggest that the figures appearing in the bill of costs ought to be varied and accordingly I have not er have to consider the detail items in the bill of costs, the only issue I didn't decide is whether master was correct in disallowing interest for the period that he did, er Mr for the plaintiff says that he was wrong er that there was no good reason for disallowing him any interest and that accordingly I on this appeal should erm discharge or reverse that part of taxing order as disallowed interest. Er doctor says not only was the taxing officer right in what he did, but he should of gone further and as I say he should of erm disallowed more interest, the basis of which erm doctor puts forward that submission before me seems to be two fold, first he points out that in fact the plaintiffs failed to perfect the order of Mr Justice er, er sorry Mr Justice erm, until the twenty fifth of May nineteen ninety three and that was a, I think he would say a probable failure on part of the plaintiffs and their solicitors to do with what his solicitor had asked them to do in the letter of the twenty third of April nineteen ninety one. The other point which is made by the defendant is this, he says that the plaintiffs have been guilty of delaying tactics er during the course of this litigation, the result of which has been that er he has not been able to realize his interest in the partnership premises, also he has not been able to acquire a partnership premises and he he, doctor mentioned to me that to the actual conveyance of the partnership premises he's, he tells me was only produced I think thirty and er that er it was only then that he realized there might be a chance that he could acquire the premises for himself, but he says that er because of the general, I think the case is, because of the general conduct of the plaintiffs in delaying the trial of the action one way or another, er the practical effect has been that the plaintiffs have had the benefit of use and occupation of the premises at which he erm, a main view, has a lot of that interest and that they are getting benefit of the kind from that occupation and he is not getting any money in res in respect of that, at least nothing like any market rent because it maybe that there is a fairly small er payment being made, but I'm not too entirely clear whether that is the case or not, but the stock bond is suggesting that the plaintiffs have been obtaining benefit of the use of the premises at his expense and in those circumstances it is unfair er in, in, or otherwise not appropriate that the plaintiffs should be entitled to obtain interest on their bill of costs, in respect essentially of the period of delay, and when I say period of delay included that the period during which the forward of Mr Justice remained erm unprotected. When the matter came before the taxing master it appears to have proceeded on footing that erm order twenty eighty, rule four, sorry I, rule, rule twenty eighty, four sixty two er was the relevant er provision under which erm the taxing master disallowed interest. Order twen er, rule twenty, eight, four provides that when a party is entitled to costs, and that of course is the case of the plaintiffs, a, fails without good reason to commence or conduct proceedings for the taxation of those costs in accordance with this order or any direction or b, delays lodging a bill of costs for taxation, the taxing office may one, disallow already part of the costs of taxation that he would otherwise would warn about the party and two, after taking into account all the circumstances, including any prejudice suffered by any other party as result of such failure or delay as the case maybe, and any additional interest payable under section seventeen of the judgements act because of the failure or delay, allow the party so entitled less than the amount he would otherwise have allowed on taxation of the bill are wholly disallowed the costs,his provision for an appeal to allow to the judge and chambers and that is the way the matter is coming before me. Whether strictly order twenty eight, er order sixty, rule twenty eight for erm applies in this case is not amount entirely clear to me because the obligation to lodge a bill of taxation under rule twenty nine provides that he must begin proceedings for the taxation either within three months after the judgement direction or order of the terminations enter sides are otherwise perfected, and that is presently on it's face which seemed to be debited May of nineteen ninety three and er accordingly that is right, it's not in fact been any failure to comply with order tw order sixty two, rule twenty nine, one, and that hasn't been disregarded, it's not entirely clear to me that erm there is any matter come from paragraph sub paragraph A of rule twenty eight, four, it may already require, still nevertheless erm fall within paragraph B of rule fo , erm there has in fact been a delay in lodging the bill of costs for taxation, the delay being really and truly, the delay in having the order of Mr Justice perfected and it seems to me that although in chasing matters generally speaking it is the court will itself draw the order, nevertheless where er it seems to be clearly in this case would contemplate it that counsel would sign a minute erm that counsel do sign a minute and that minute has been signed having forwarded by the defendants solicitors to the defendants solicitors seems to me it must be the case that erm the obligation to, as it were, forward that minute to the court, it is an obligation which would lie upon the plaintiffs solicitors and it maybe said that erm there has been delay and erm on the best it should be lodged with the court sealed, er shortly after it was received and that therefore on that footing there has been delay lodging the bill of costs for concession, er Mr, doctor doesn't seemed to be take any point in relation to that er because it's not in his interest to do so, it seems to be that he does have to say if it has been delayed, with an order of twenty eight rule four that's a rule, rule, rule twenty eight er four if he is to have interest disbarred and er Mr er he'll apparently have the matter of read before the taxing master, it seems that the taxing master did not chew any sympathy with that er suggestion, that er there was in fact no breach of the requirement rule twenty, four, Mr he said, very probably, that erm, look on text upon it, he really is concerned to erm have this case dealt with as you put it on the merits, it seems to me it's in the interest of all parties that erm I should deal with the case on merits have on the assumption erm that er, that that was lodged properly I think, I ca I, a matter of which found within rule twenty eight, four and that the taxing officer give our interest under that rule. Right, it's clear in't it under four rule twenty eight, four, it's not essential for the disallowance of any cost or interest that er the taxing officer should be satisfied that erm the other party has been prejudiced, in fact that is not a condition precedent to the exercise of his part and disallow interest in this here item, er any prejudice there maybe is merely one factor to be taken into account in other matters and it does seem to me that the fact the court can, can properly and should properly take into account, is, is that erm, it is desirable that to litigation should erm comply with there obligations, either expressly, express or explicit under the rules of the court to comply with matter such as it should have orders part drawn up and served as appropriate, as I say it seems to me that er the plaintiffs's can be criticized in not erm having perfected the order of Mr Justice er before they did so but er, I have, it seems to me to look at all the relevant pictures in the case, er if it were the case that the plaintiff suffered any prejudice as the result of that claim, clearly that would be a matter which I would have to take into account, but I'm bound to say it doesn't seem to me that the fender of the plaintiffs to perfect the order did in fact cause any prejudice to the plaintiff and indeed if they, the plaintiffs had perfected the order, it seems to me exactly the same course of events as in fact transpired in this case, would actually have occurred and wouldn't make any difference at all, so unless it's a matter of simply of er seeking to punish the plaintiff as a matter of discipline, it seems to me there is a, not really anything in the point that the order was not perfected er when it seems to me it should of been, and I, there stood to see the other er circumstances, now it's quite clear to me having been referred to correspondence, passing between the solicitors that erm although really from a very early stage er the plaintiffs solicitors referring to Mr a letter of early nineteen ninety one indicating that erm the view was being taken that the likelihood was that erm the plaintiffs would have to get their costs out of the defendants share and interest in the premises and er that would be a matter which could only be dealt with when the enquiries director by Mr Justice had been dealt with. Mr was the defendants solicitors, the parties during nineteen ninety one, the two solicitors, had dealt with the question of costs and er perfectly normal way, the plaintiffs have their costs,drafted by er cost draughtsman, I understand that in-house draughtsman and erm they produced to Mr a bill for costs, er Mr looked at the bill and met counter proposals and he suggested other figures, erm, figures in the region of forty two thousand pounds, forty seven and fifty thousand pounds for the plaintiffs costs, the correspondence indicates that Mr then, now put forward what with respect seems to be entirely sensible suggestion that er really it would not be sensible to proceed with having the cost taxed, he said he didn't foresee any real difficulty in getting them to agree the costs and that er the common sense thing in the interest of all parties was to see if they could reach an overall,settlement er determining all the matters in dispute, effectively this would be what was to be done in respect of the surgery premises, there was I think, there is reference in accounted to another sec another premises as well which apparently were lease, er but are now formed part of the negotiations and er negotiations continued between the parties during nineteen ninety two, by the end of nineteen ninety two the negotiations were beginning to run into difficulties, the plaintiffs were beginning to put forward non negotiable final offers and er the result unfortunately was that in apparently nineteen ninety three the er negotiations into that broke down. Mr was well aware because he'd been told by the plaintiffs solicitors that the plaintiffs received terms for cover or to obtain interest on their costs, the plaintiffs solicitors wrote specifically to Mr enquiring was his offer in, in the sum of forty two thousand pounds, that's er the possible agreed settlement figure for costs, er if it was inclusive or exclusive of interest erm there were some delay but er Mr wrote back in due course making clear that interest wasn't included, I should also say that in Mr er proposed bill of costs he had disallowed interest for a fairly short period in respect of both the plaintiffs bill of costs and the defendants bill of costs and the plaintiffs solicitors don't appear to have erm taken any point on that, but as I say it, the point as to interest was specifically raised by the plaintiffs solicitors letter and er I'm quite satisfied on the correspondence that they when it came to the matter were seen, were desires of obtaining interest in respect of their costs. The letter from the plaintiffs solicitors in respect of question of interest one causes, the letter of the twenty ninth of January of nineteen ninety two, asking Mr to confirm, that in addition to the settlement figure of forty two thousand pounds in respect of costs he'd be paying interest until the date of payment, and er, there was never a mind that erm which find a reply to in, in thirtieth of March nineteen ninety two by Mr , there's no unqualified agreement in figure of forty two thousand pounds, I do not wish to appear obstructive but your clients must recognise that there are effectively two issues to be resolved, namely the payment of their costs and the division of the parts of other property, surely in all parties interest that none of these are resolved, so it is surely in all party interest that those, those are resolved contemporary and then the letter goes on to dealing with questions of valuation, the bottom paragraph on page thirty two in the bundle says in answer to your letter therefore is that there is no agreement to pay interest, if there is then my client must be credited with interest on his costs , and then it says surgery and finally if ove if overall agreement cannot be reached then my client reserves his rights on the issue of costs and I feel that this could lead to an acrimonious and protracted taxation, at the end of the day I suspect it would only be enforced the order for costs about taking a charge in my clients interest in the surgery premises , does that improve your clients position at all, as I say that was the position of the thirtieth of March nineteen ninety two and during the remainder of nineteen ninety two there were then further negotiations, some of them appeared to have been carried out er personally between er doctor and er doctor which seems to of been the partner, dealing with the plaintiffs position and er he says about his non negotiable offer at page forty one in the bundle apparently attached to a letter of the twenty first of December nineteen ninety two and er that had a time limit on, the twenty second of March, there was a reminder on the twenty second of February and erm the plaintiffs solicitors wrote on the fourteenth of April nineteen ninety three raising the question of costs erm say that erm we have now received your clients instructions, that they would be prepared to accept the sum of forty two thousand in respect of their standard basis costs which is inclusive of V A T and disbursements, you remember that our initial schedule of costs which I set part of my letter of the eighth of October total fifty thousand, nine hundred and ninety eight pounds, twenty six pence, in addition to this our client would require interest from the which is as of todays date at seven hundred and sixty days at seventeen pounds, twenty six a day totalling thirteen thousand, one hundred and seventeen pounds, sixty, in the circumstances I look forward to receiving your clients cheque for the sum of fifty five thousand, one hundred and seventeen pounds and sixty pence within the next seven days and then it says I believe you were certainly agreeing have been very patient concerning your clients costs, but now we wish these to be paid and that was responded to er Mr on the twenty second of April er but why he quite has not been directly involved in the conversation for some time and there was not reasonable expected response for seven days from him, er and then he goes on to say that although he appreciates his firm is still on the record, I shall seek instructions from my client, but it maybe he would wish to give notice of acting in person and indeed that is in fact what happened, what happened in this case. Now it seems to me with erm with great respect from the view of the taxing officer, that er it's quite clear that er both parties were holding han were holding their hands in relation to a question of taxation because negotiations were going on between the parties and indeed the defendants were being requested er not to proceed with taxation but to see if they could obtain an overall assessment and the point was met to the defendants barrister, telling quite frankly there wouldn't be much advantage in the defendants pushing on with erm taxation because they'd only, they would have to look to his interest in the property to get payment, it seems to me in those circumstances that it cannot be said that erm the plaintiffs were in any way acting improperly and not seeking to have the costs taxed during the period while the negotiations were being carried on er because effectively and Mr replied that is what Mr was asking the other to do, that is to hold their hand and to enter into negotiations, now I fully appreciate that erm doctor feels strongly that the defendants have not been negotiating in good faith and have been simply dragging matters out for his benefit, now when I say that I'm simply saying what I understand to be doctor view, I'm certainly not suggesting that I'm finding as a fact, but that was the decision, indeed I couldn't cos I've not heard all the evidence on this matter not as Mr to address me on that one, it seems to me with all respect to doctor missions on this matter that if there has been any dragging of feet or other improper conduct of either the defendants in connection with er they remain on in the premises and not paying what doctor would consider to be a full and proper rent or if there has been problem about their not disclosing documents when they should have done, the position is that doctor has er by making an appropriate application to the court, for maybe the appropriate relief arising out of the facts which he can establish, but that is not in general a matter which erm the court should go into on the question of taxation, it's not,th this particular taxation of costs is a taxation as I understand it that are formally to the debt of the order of Mr Justice and there is thus no question of the court having to consider the question when the those tax those costs have been swollen or increased in any way by reason of spinning out negotiations whether to run up costs or otherwise, that simply doesn't arising it seems to me in this case that maybe a matter which may arise possibly at some future date, though I would hope it would not do so, but er so far as the costs down to the end of the trial of the twentieth of March nineteen ninety one are concerned, it seems to me the fact that the parties maybe negotiating subsequently to deter to rece to resolve the outstanding issue, it's not a matter which really goes to the question of erm what is the proper amount to allow for taxation of costs which have already been incurred, before these negotiations erm we don't the figure of the costs appears to have been effectively agreed between the solicitors at forty two thousand pounds, the plaintiff solicitors made it quite clear that they were seeking interest, this was clear in apparently of nineteen ninety two, but this held their hand, er it seems to me the reason they held their hand rather than indicate it was because the defendant through his solicitor was asking them to do so and it seems to me that Mr was acting very sensibly in the defendants interest, because if in fact they had gone ahead and taxed their costs there and then the position would simply be that there would of been an award for taxation, in order, there would be a taxation resulting in an order for payment of of some cost probably in the region of forty two thousand pounds and er that order would itself carry interest under the judgements act, it doesn't seem to me it can be sensibly said that erm any interest has to be in any way increased by reason of this delay and it seems to me that erm if one looks at order sixty two and twenty eight er certainly under paragraph B two erm there's a reference there to any additional interest payable under section seventeen because of the failure on the May, erm, it doesn't seem to me that the effect of what has in fact incurred, in this case has been, caused any additional interest to be paid and er it seems to me the only best that I can see in the evidence before me to, which would enable the court to erm, conclude that there should be a disallowance of interest would be as I say because the plaintiffs appear not to have perfected the order for the payment of perfectively two years, just over two years, erm it seems to me however that, that on balance probably it simply a matter of oversight and even if it had been perfected it wouldn't of made as I guess the least bit of difference to the way the negotiations er proceeded and accordingly I take the view that erm there are no grounds for disallowing interest from either the plaintiffs bill of costs or the defendants bill of costs, accordingly erm to allow the defendants appeal in preparation to the disallowance of costs er interest and to dismiss the defendants appeal for application in relation to an additional period, P sixty of course disallowed, I also propose to dismiss the sum of, the appeal by the plaintiffs from the refusal of taxing master to disallow the interest on the defendants bill of costs. Well there was just, it's not, surprising it's a very long day, when you initially said I allow the period of the plaintiff by mistake you said defendant, just for the record I allow that, it is the it's the substantial the plaintiff isn't it, that's allowed yes I allow the plaintiffs appeal and dismiss the defendants as it were cross appeal from the order in erm it's the August er taxing master right of the twelfth, twelfth of August isn't it? but I only put that in case the yes, thank you, that is, thank you, thank you very much my Lord all that follows now is that question costs in this my Lord there is no doubt that er this is the painful experience for both the plaintiffs and of course for doctor who is unrepresented and therefore must inevitably feel rather isolated in this matter erm, however in my there is no reason to er depart from the usual principal of the costs which should follow the event and of course we know as it the loss on the subsidiary appeal and so I don't press the point on that cos the reality as you've already probably anticipated is all the work has been done erm on this appeal the subsidiary appeal I ask, I don't ask for costs on that, in my submission it should be both sides bear their own costs on that, the reason I say that is that there was no, there was no cross appearing in respect on it in effect, cos after all, all you were doing was er trying to get the same as the other side if we lost, so no worm of can of beans can be done by doctor I had one parallel in my whole skeleton on that, er, but we have substantially succeeded on the main issue and so I, I would ask that costs in favour of the plaintiffs on, on that and here and indeed below. what was the order of those costs made below? equally cost in both, on both er summonses the costs were against my clients so but, but I accept that er Mr has got costs below, yes, erm I accept that you can't, I should of added that in respect of the decision of er September second decision mm you, you wouldn't be fair of me to ask you to change that no I think I mean that's I would think that's a chance we took and we lost it yes but I've not our costs yes Mr doctor I'm sorry my Lord for saying this erm, erm I'm, I'm, well I am really gonna ask for legal fees on this well I'll deal with that after we've dealt with the question of costs, what do you say on the question of costs doctor ? erm, erm feel like they're getting the benefit again, again and again, you now make the costs of at every point they take another, they've got more coming in, erm in terms of cash and er at every point I seem to loose, I loose the first case in ninety one and everything now seems to go against me, it seems as though I don't stand a chance any more. I think I must make the ordinary orders to costs, well what I will do is erm doctor must I think pay the costs of the appeal against the order of master erm both here and below on the other hand the defendant seems to be able to bear the costs of the appeal against the September order, that's the order, that's the order of, is that Mr ?, er sorry when I say the doc doctor bears the costs must er in fact he must, right, it is the August, that's the August decision both, both before erm the taxing officer and on this appeal and er the, I dismiss the defendants appeal against the September board with costs oh yes I'd object to the settlement and again I'll direct that the costs will be set off, seems to be the sensible course well yes did yes for which one it shows I'm afraid, my I ask for er if it's required certificate for counsel maybe required for taxation later on. erm, well I think it's,do , erm I don't know whether you understand what's been asked doctor it cou it's a question of costs, er normally where er matters erm are dealt with in chambers for in counsel appear then erm these counsel don't get paid for the other side erm unless there is certificate for counsel as I understand it, were the, were the counsel appeared before the Judge erm they are entitled to their costs and this is er an appeal to the Judge, but er what I think Mr is saying is, in case he happens to be wrong in that he would like an order that er his fees should be proper fees of the defen of the plaintiffs on this appeal and er such as you could say seems to me that er, that is a, that would be proper yes, I think it's been of an assistance to the court yes, assistance to me that erm Mr has been at least only to of explain the background which erm is not entirely, not an easy matter, so er if it's necessary I'll give a certificate I'm grateful, that's for today, erm my Lord it may sound slightly more erm contentious, but I'd also ask for certificate for counsel for the thirteenth of August hearing, may I say the reason for that, it's a matter that hasn't come before you, you won't know about, it's this, this reason, because at that period it wasn't just the application under twenty eighty or twenty eight, four for delay there was another application er, which was unsuccessful which hasn't been proceed today, but cost were also disallowed with more serious reason, I submit that said showed er negligent or that improper conduct, there was a substantial attack mounted, and I can use no other words fairly describe it on the professional conduct of and for that reason my Lord er both cos the seriousness of the allegations, but of course also because of the potential conflict that they acted for themselves and it would of been in situation for us solicitor hence to turn up, er they instructed counsel and my self, and so for that double reason in my believe we should be entitled to at, at first stage, ordinarily I wouldn't of had a very good run for argument but I, it's my suspicion my clue recollection, be backed up by those behind me, and indeed by the documents that a substantial attack was mounted and it was in, I have to say in full flight terms, and much hence couldn't be said to be unreasonable to deem if necessarily, unusually to send counsel in front of a taxing master, well I won't say any more on the point, but that is my suspicion What was the taxing off asked for certificate for counsel, presumably he wasn't well, huh, my Lord having lost erm taxing master didn't no I'm sure he didn't well rather didn't have to pay the costs, it didn't really arise no, that's correct yes, that's right. Is it right doctor that you made a, an attack on professional confidence of , other than in a relationship the erm profecting of the order My Lord it is since that erm because, as you mention that er because of all the delay, that I am quite sure that positively intended erm I lost large sums of paying my solicitors,solicitors as well as a surveyor and therefore I attempted to er, er to recoup that yes I didn't er yes I see, I think er unfortunately doctor I in this particular case I ought to make an order for certificate for counsel erm in the current, in respect of the costs incurred below on the thirteenth of August seems to me do er the proper kind of case in which to instruct counsel. Erm, I think so there's no dispute as to what the terms of the order are, er Mr it might be helpful if you could erm prepare a minute of order for lodging certainly of course, er provide a copy of that to erm doctor before it is lodged and, I'm sure it can be agreed my Lord do, do we agree to that now or by tomorrow morning? well I would think if it could lodged during the course of the next ten days or so certainly, it'll be done by tomorrow morning I'm, I'm, if there any question over it, the reason why I said ten days I'm already sitting in London for, until the end of next week and therefore if there were any question, it's obvious that it came before me, and that it'll be done by tomorrow morning yes thank you yes, yes, that can be prepared and erm a copy of that to doctor and certainly doctor if you don't agree with what it says, erm, you can obviously mention that to and er er along speedily say in the course of this week, the matter can be mentioned in formal to me, erm one morning at ten o'clock next week I would of thought. In terms of I need to appeal this one oh yes, leave to appeal, erm it doesn't seem to me that this is an appropriate case for leave, or at least for me to grant leave, doctor All court rise And don't put your greasy little hands ha? Oh hi Warren! You alright Shel? What are you doing here you cunt? Don't call my boyfriend a cunt ! That's my dad you're talking about. Jos. Cor! Look at that bum now! You should relax I think you're really Teacher! Teacher! Teacher! I think you're really sexy Warren! Too late, he's mine. Alright, too late, he's yours. What are you going out with Warren? Yes I am. Oh, is she going out with you? Yes I am. Are you? No, say. I'm only joking Shel. I've gotta like Shelley now. Bloody idiots! You're so thicky! I see, it's screw me and leave me. Aha. Oh like you're seeing Martin You know again? Yeah. I quite understand. Where's this bloody book! Oh. Eh? Oh. Urgh! Urgh! Oh my God! Er, er er er er It was so funny, I had this weird dream the other night, you know. I mean If it's about Take That I don't wanna hear. Oh yeah. It was. No, I don't wanna hear it. I got off with Oh shut up! and it was nice though. It's erm, it was at the, and he was Come on! You're in here to work don't We are. I said no no eating! Sorry miss. I'll spit it out straight away. I swear to God. Do I have to say it twice? Yes. Well it does help if you say it twice cos Then it's work d'ya hear? Her hearing's I got this brain problem, you know what I mean? Come on. You know what I mean? Yeah. I know what you mean. Ah miss. This is work though so It isn't wo , oh yeah, I'm working by the way, you know. Yeah. Yeah. She she's working on some poxy thing! So where are we supposed to get the information then, just a In fact, right now? It is work miss. Yeah, well this is exam work isn't it? Ye , no. It's not exam work. Well what's it for then? It's a special project. Oh oh. For a Norwegian college. For a Norwegian college about teenage language. Norwegian college! Is it? Yeah. And I'm recording you right now. Are you? Yeah. Oh! Little microphone right here. It's really cute. Where's the bin? Like a virgin . Leave it alone! It's ooh, it's to my, ee, aye, ee aye . What is it? Ha? What's it for? I'm gonna tell I thought that was Drop Dead Fred. I know. Very funny. Considering you ain't got your glasses on. Oh oh. Yeah. This one, this one I might take away. Doo dee doo . She said has Warren got a nice bum? And I said, yes. Ooh! A little Walkman. I've got two Walkmans on me right now. I've got this one and I've got this one. What about the Jungle Book? Oh I, I just love that! Really? Yeah. Don't you think it is really good? Nadima, shut your mouth about the Jungle Book! Mrs will probably you little baby! You're fifteen years old and you still wanna watch the Jungle Book. Honestly! Ooh bay, boo boo Some people! be doo, I wanna be like you hoo hoo ! Oh don't start on me you know, saying I can't there on Tuesday! I said nothing. I'm talking about me ! Don't start because I'll, I'll smash I'm just in the your face in! Sorry! Som , someone like me . That's okay. Can you pass me my book back please? Okay. If she starts moaning I'm just gonna What am I doing down here? bust her face in! Yeah. And, if she starts moaning just gonna bust her face in! Oh by the way I've got the I say, I've got friends Oh yeah . and I'm gonna make them come over and I'm gonna make them beat the shit out of you! Oh sorry. Oh shut up! Okay. Yeah well I know this Saturday. It's your dad innit? Yeah, your dad, I want you to know Oh I think it was Freddie Kruger. Are you having some? I'm having some. Yeah. I don't like it. Well it's alright. Oh . Oh well that's a bit of a bummer isn't it? Oh I hate that. And she's gone and got some. Urgh! Urgh! Why have you got your headphones in? What are you listening to? I'm listening to like a virgin! Oh I think Madonna's crap! Ooh! Ooh ! So do I. Fuck you! Fuck the both of you right! Madonna is a whore! It's on that , it's brilliant! No. Shut your She's so mouth! Shut She is brilliant! your mouth! I agree with you. Shut, thank you Nadima. Shut your mouth! And you're just a a one-way conversation I like Madonna. Shut, shut your mouth! Shut your mouth! I like Madonna . When you've got as much money as Madonna Yes I do. and as many fans you can then call her whatever you want. I like Madonna. She's wicked! I love her new song. Stop beating her up . Oh God! She's good. That's so good. Yeah go away from me now. Why? Do you like me? Of course. Ah ah. Do you like Shelley? Ah ah, he won't say it. You know what I mean? Go on give it to me. I understand , I just, you know, I just, ha, I understand. Do you like me Warren? Yes or no? No you don't Yes! have to hi oh oh! What? What? What? My man! Just, Just leave him alone, you know. He's a cheap man. I'll save it for you. Yes I know . Nick's a bitch. You're, you're dark. Can, can we sing our song? Go on, watch go on then. My name is Nick Oh! I don't wanna see your . And I am funky And I am funky Shut up ! my name is Nick, my mum's a junkie. my name is Nick, my mum's a junkie. No don't say that cos I My name is Nick, my gran is randy. My name is Nick , my gran is randy. My name is Nick. My name is Nick. Ready, steady,your gran is randy . See you guys later. Right. See ya. We got a break now. We got Mickey as well. Whip whoo! Ya Oh I think I'll I'll push in. I don't like Mr I think he should be sacked personally. I don't like Mr . Ooh! Ooh! I don't like Mr . I he's alright Ooh! Ooh! You're gonna break it! That wasn't very nice was it? Warren I love you. Ah? You can come over tonight, and don't forget the condoms. Are you coming over on Saturday? No, he's coming round my house tonight with his condoms. Can I come over on Saturday? Why don't you both come round Oh . No I'll just come round you can appear I make the energies move quickly okay ? Urgh! That's disgusting! I don't even know what you're talking about here, you know? I, I don't nothing about it. Talking about , it's sex. I dunno nuffink about sex. I'm an innocent child. Mm. Really? I dunno nuffink about the birds and bees. Are you a virgin? All I know is, the birds go mm mm, and the bees, and the the birds go . Yes I am a virgin. The birds go buzz, and bees go woo ooh ! No? I'm a virgin . Not ! Oh! Dirty cow. Not me . Who did you do it with then? I done it with my finger. Didn't really . No I never. I done it with erm erm erm done it with Mick. But I couldn't feel it, I just you finished yet ? That's right, he's really small isn't he? Yeah. Bob. Dick. Well I think Mick's quite a prick because he's so thick ain't he really ? Oh shut up! You're so cruel. The things you've been saying about him. I have the right to say these things, okay? You know. Time to go everyone! The excitement's over . What what excitement? Whoo ooh ooh! Come now, come on we better go. No, it, it didn't matter so much in his hand had his hands on the bloody thing he, I just got his a , I just jump up. Cos I You but Shelley you don't you don't No I never! Yes you did Shelley! I never ! He saw your body I never. and ever since then, face it Shelley! I ne , no shut your mouth! Shut up! I'm not ! That's Shelley ! He's a dirty, rotten bastard! Shelley No! you enjoyed it. No. Face it! No! You enjoyed it. I never! Shelley you wanted to You rotten bastard ! You Shelley are a sick fat bitch! I'm going . Yeah. I'm going, you lot are you lot are mad! Karen? Yeah? You going out with somebody now? Are you? Truthfully? No. It doesn't matter what you tell us. Now C twenty eight that some people who I've noticed have been talking one minute. Oh I hate this fucking woman! I would love to kill her! Ooh! One minute left. I can stand it To pick everything up, it's wicked. When I first put it on it was bzz bzz, bzz bzz, it's a Flymo. Lend us the tape a minute and let me listen. Yeah? Yeah. Go on then. Well are you gonna say something? Hello Janet. Hello! Ooh! It's great. Speak into my microphone here. Speak into my microphone kids. Georgina say something. I can hear what she's saying to somebody. See look, whisper, whisper, right, whisper. Whisper from there see if she can pick it up. Somebody should say, Karen stop snogging Wesley! Wesley man, calm down get your top out of her bra, hand out of her let go of her going for her coconuts . What? Let go of her coconuts . Go on we could have had . Is it Thursday today? Oh Yeah, it's here. Is it Thursday today? No, Friday. I wish it was Friday though. Why? Where you going? Nowhere in particular just want it to be Friday . I can't believe I've gotta get up at flipping ten o'clock on Sunday! Oh! My God! Ah my pen's run out. Well don't use mine. I am. Alright then. I'm sorry . Winston tell me your life story. Sorry, what was you saying . Oh fuck! What are you doing with that? Oh. Well don't worry about it just go back and think, alright? You just go back and think. Okay? He will go back too. Erm Yeah I know. I'm sorry. Oh just shut up! Yeah . Oh what do you mean go back with him, since I've, I've split up with him now like. Alright. And you're telling me to get back with him. Is he a good snogger? Oh. Lovely. Yeah. What's it Ooh er ooh! I know someone who's a good kisser. Well what's it like? Oh yeah! You expect me to Me. show you Sharon Not really. or something ? No thank you. Ah? I said I know wha , someone who's a good kisser. Me. No me. I thought you were gonna say Nick or something. Nick! Nick! Ah! Come on. Say da da da. I'll read it. No I wanna read it! Read it then. Right. The problem page, Just Seventeen. Arnold Schwarzenegger impression Fuck you baby! Asta la vista . Don't worry about Arnold Schwarzenegger. The war is over . It's so unfair Those universal soldiers going to . Don't you remember?'s got the necklace with the ears on it and he goes can't you hear me? Ain't ya? He's got a necklace with ears on it and he goes, can't you hear me? And Jean-Claude goes the war is over . Anyway, anyway, problem page Well that's not the point, I would have found out. Back on the subject of the problem page Don't you like it? Just Seventeen. Just Seventeen this is. Ya. Right. Ready? Yes. Do , Dear Doctor Anne I'm fifteen and I need your advice. Last night I had sex with my boyfriend Ha ah! and then the next day he said he no longer loved me. Ha ah! A few months later I found that I was pregnant. I know my mother wouldn't agree and she would be even mad if she knew he was a black boy. I see him about in school but I can't bring myself to tell him. Tell him love. So please Tell him. help. Yours, Take That fan, London . London. You can tell she's from London. Hackney. London. My er, that's it, my sister's Why are you writing problems? boyfriend said I'm a common cow and have a got a big nose. Did she? Did he? Yeah. You're a common cow with a big nose? Yeah. I wouldn't talk to him again! I agree. Not really. He's got a Andy. bigger nose than me. Andy. Did your cat legs,le , legs really get did it really get blown off? ? Leg? No. It didn't? It got in it, but he hasn't got any leg. So it has only got three legs? A three-legged cat Brilliant! . A three-legged Tom. What have Hello Wesley. A three-legged cat. Tiger. It's name's Tiger innit? A three-legged Tiger. How many stripes has it got? Why No. why are you in here? What are you doing in here? He sits there panting er it's not Warren it is Wesley, alright? His name is Wesley! Anyway , I forgot to bring a tape in for you? Tape? What tape? The video. What's it bring it on Friday. But it doesn't matter, I'm not going. The what? Have you got, have you got a lot on that? It's only six people. There's only six people on here. Yeah. And Grace. Where d'ya get it from? Where d'ya get it from. Well what do you put, well Erm they're not Norway. friends of mine then, so I'll call them acquaintances. Yeah. Where d'ya get it from? Well let's face it Erm we're not your friends. some college in Norway want a research to say How did you lot get in then? class cos we were chosen. wankers! Erm, say, say Out of the English classes. outsiders I'm quite good in English though. Erm but What , the what Warren? Ah? It's all the hospital stewards in here. This thing's gonna be so bloody then innit? No, but she said you could have eight people all talking at once Yeah? and they can pick them out. She said they've got computers to do that. Yeah, I've got another one. Okay. Problem number two. Read . No, I'm not reading these. Read them to me I'm not please. Urgh! Urgh! No, please ! Just wai , wait till you're offered. Oh! Magic! I've got it! Say you got mugged. Keep it. Well you Say I got mugged and keep it all. Oh oh! They're delicious! Ha? You read something. Wait a minute. Give me it. Read it Don't read, er just start. Don't even bother stopping, right? Start! Don't ca , it erm What? No,jus Give me it. Just read, no you listen. Dear Doctor , I'm fourteen Oh Dear Doctor Alan I am fourteen. A few months what? I was fourteen a few months A few months back a few months back I was bored with myself, and my family, I was playing about with my dog, I started rubbing I started rubbing it underneath and he really enjoyed it. It really did turn me on and after the first time I done it it it turned me on so much I come. What is wrong with me? P S I'm a Kylie Minogue fan, from Andrew . You are . Andrew. Please help ! Sophie. Sophie. Oh please help. Sophie. Yeah. Yeah. But you gonna buy them both a You've really got a disgusting bite ! Ah ah ! That is disgusting ! I rubbed my Give me it. Urgh! Urgh! Josie and Anthony are snogging! I thought you said Me and Anthony are just friends. Are you sure? Look at Anthony he's rubbing . Yeah, Anthony stop rubbing up her tits! Well so dis Karen! Alright have you stopped Stop now? stop Can you reach? stop wanking Chrissy okay? Alright. Wesley and Anthony would you get out of your Yes Wesley! Wesley! Wesley! No! Miss. We really can't think about what we need to do, you know. You had an idea, you said , it's not there. So what, we'd have to make sure it was exactly the right, the same amount and, in the same flame and the same and see how long it took and whatever took the longest went I dunno whatever? Well you might have a Yes? I'm really, really interested! Melt anything? Yes. Okay,yo , you want, you want to find out which one burns the longest? Okay. Well if you think that's the Well one that way to do it. takes the longest will turn black. It should do. Right. That it burns What apparatus are you gonna use? Er, tripod Bunsen burner. Good. And a Bunsen burner. Well And a flame. Oh alright then. No one. Just, just one person. Yes cos we do a little bit out of the class instead. Well Well done. That's what we want. Where did you get that thing? Yeah. Yeah, it's nothing to do with this school. But she couldn't pull one of us out? Cos she didn't want one of you, she wanted one of me. I don't believe you. She wanted one of me ? And me? By being a hussy. Peter, Robert Anthony and Grace. So, six people. She could have picked Wesley couldn't she? Yeah, she could have picked Wesley. Wesley, what was your last name? Wesley? Wesley, Wesley,We My God! What? I'm just asking old Karen to stop wanking and caressing him. I've had the last two , that's the last couple of words you wanna put. Yeah. I know you didn't do it. You wanna listen to this one . Ha? You lot ain't supposed to know I'm taping. I'm not! I just wanna hear Oh you wanna listen to something, but you don't know what you wanna listen Oh hold on. You're taping right? Well that's what . Why are you taping here? No! It's nothing to do with this school. Andrew. No one in this school listens to it. Why are you taping here? Are you taping ? Yes please. Can I have a look at the bottle please? Oh not another bloody ? Why? Anthony's got drugs. Oh I don't know . Anthony's taking drugs ! So come on Why is everyone have a conversation. Well hang on, so who does it go to then? It goes to Norway. Ah? A college in Norway. Mr , you've probably gotta give the tapes, you gotta, you gotta give the tapes to Miss, erm No! I give the tapes . to the wa , student from Norway. No you don't, you give it to I don't give it to Miss ! And Miss gives it to the student innit? Cassie, I've gotta come in on Monday morning when there's school to give it to this student. Cassie! You should say you've got Cassie! Yeah? Cassie, who have we got to give the tapes to? Give and I'll put, Monday is it? Hello. What are them tablets? I wanna know. Where? They're drugs! Yes I'm very concerned Anthony. We're concerned for your welfare. I mean you might be overcharged for them. Are they Cassie's tablets? Don't you think we should get paid for these drugs? Yeah? Yeah. Are they vitamins? No. Oh I see let us keep the microphones. Drugs. Mid-period pain tablets. Are they paracetamol? No they're not. Are they period pain You just, they're tablets What? Do you get red tablets? Yeah. I do. I get red and white ones. I like the blue ones better. I like the blue and yellow ones. Well I like the blue and yellow Well I like the blue and yellow ones. Well I've had, one, two, three, four, five, six conversations! Ooh er missus! Miss, are Erm we talking about Josie I really think Does it look stupid? No don't start, okay? I really think you should wash your hair because there's all lice running along the table . Do you want one? I'm not a monkey. I don't really wanna go for you Ooh ooh ooh ooh ooh ooh ooh ooh . No! Get over there. Ah ha, ah ha, ha ha ha ha ha ! Your mad! Josie, that's brilliant ! Do you like that story? What? How does it go? Shit! Right. I lick your boom boom now. I like your boom No. It's the only bit I know. Informer, something la la la, I lick your boom boom now. That's nice isn't it? Cos I wonder what But it's on the radio I wo wonder, I wonder what it's about ? I think it's Radio One. Do it in this. It's Radio One. I can hear it . That's what I thought . Oh! Ooh God! We're making a mess, we've made a mess of the table . Are you recording it on your thing? Er er, er er er mm. It really echoes when you bang the table. Ha? Do it again. Good innit? Ah! Probably have a go at me for smashing their microphone up. Wow! This is excuse me! Oh sorry! Alright. Right. Oh oh . Everybody everybody up in your mum's! Everybody up your mum's bum! Everybody up your mum's bum! Yo mum! Yo mum! Everybody up your mum's big bum ! Involve me in the conversation and I can't hear you talk. Josie get yo my head Out of this one. out of the microphone. Ah? Put it on the radio. No, I'm not naughty girl like you! Let me tape some more. Cassie, get it off of the radio! Josie needs to tape it I know wait a minute, wait a minute, I've got a better idea. They're taping something there. Wesley dear. Ha? I'll come over to you. No I'm listening to the radio. Wesley innit? Wesley, Wesley. Nick, Nick, Nick ? Yeah. Nicholas ? He's a He's didn't? He didn't , he didn't wanna go out you, you in the first place and he just didn't bother to tell, tell anybody Then why did he ask me out? he said, he didn't wanna go out with, he didn't wanna come with you in the holidays. He just didn't. Then why did he ask me out? I dunno. Why don't you ask him? Cos I'm not talking to him. Oh, so it's true? You're not talking to him cos he didn't No, I called him up in the week, in the holiday and I asked him to come to Shelley's and he said call me back. Oh yeah. Simple as that. But you haven't? No, it weren't cos of that. Cos I spent, I spent the first week of the holiday mainly with Shelley. So, didn't really want Nick there. Did you dump him? Yes. On Wednesday. I didn't dump him. I just said I don't think we should go out no more. That's a dump. It's not. We compromised. Okay. Here's Mr . You better get your head down Wesley. When we used to sit with you in Humanities sat next to you right, and I was saying like erm erm, you were saying I got you to say so who are gonna bring down the school to beat me up? And we got on this subject. And I said no one. And you said you bring the mother-fuckers down. And I got you talking about all the porno magazines. We got all that on tape. Have you had it all lesson? Yeah I've still got it. When have you gotta give it back then? Do you tape ? When have you gotta give that back? No, not this. I had a dictaphone. I've got a dictaphone. I've brung it into school loads of times. Have you still got everything? Yeah. Oh no, I think I taped over it. I've still got bits of it about the porno magazines and that though. What's that down there? Karen, you've gotta cut them across like that. Yeah. It was quite funny listening to that actually. Cos I go, Steven goes erm, Steven goes bring the, to Shelley, he goes bring the mother-fuckers down like that. And I go, and it didn't pick it up and I goes, pardon? Could you say that again. Bring the what down? And he was going and I was going the mother what? And he's going the mother-fuckers! And I had it all down Who Nick? No. Steven. I had it all down the microphone. Yeah you were going, you were going erm well we'll beat you up. You'll bring your friends down, then beat us up, then we'll bring our friends and they'll beat them up. And you were saying all this stuff. . You were. I've got it on tape. That's what you were saying. No I wasn't thick though. And you were saying, oh yeah, we found these porno magazines and we're selling them off to perverts. And I said yeah but you're looking at them and, and you started laughing. So I goes, you must be a pervert too and you started laughing. Yeah but we, we found magazine . We had a look at them, but you ain't got me saying that on tape. Well you have now but I'm anonymous. Why d'ya think I'm not on Josie la , erm I'm recruit number two. Do like a list of people with that, that, everyone has to ? Hundreds of schools doing it. Yeah but I, it's these, it's one person whose class is supposed to have it depends Yeah. how much you've achieved. Out of the fourth year. Where do, what do I stick where Karen? What? Copy. How can I copy? You've cut it different to me. I thought you said cut it in strips. Yeah. That's the first one. Where is it? That's the first one. And you've gotta rearrange it. So you have gotta cut them up into little bits? Yeah, but you've gotta rearrange it otherwise if you cut them all up you won't know what was what, and what chain, and what with on. Right. So this is the first one? Do that one. Right. So Anthony, what are your comments to me? Anyone else? Erm, my dad heard it. That was it. But I didn't actually want him to listen to it. I was playing it and he listened to it. I told him to stay away. There are. Okay? What? I don't believe you have. Can I have a look at your other What, taped you? one please? It's a laugh man. Cos you were, you're all sitting there right, and you all talking like, like and bring the mother-fuckers down! I'm just sitting there taping. That's why I was la , cos when you were going, what you laughing at you flat chested cow? I was laughing and you were getting the hump with it cos I knew I had it all on tape. I didn't call you a flat chested cow. Yo , no it was Steven. You know like when you go to Steven, ah no Steven. You should say to Steven, ah no I didn't say anything. And he said, I had all that and that's why every time you called me something I just kept laughing cos I had it on tape. Means you could have played it to blooming anyone. Could have played it to anyone. See how good I am to you? I didn't even bother play it to anyone. I just thought, yeah, I could just get him into big shit now! If you did I'd beat shit out of you! I'd Oh no! Woo ooh ooh! I can't see it now. Where's it gone? Take the cover, I'm copying it. Let me do the last one first. Oh I just rescue me hee, rescue me ee ee ee . I've had enough of this conversation. I think I'll turn it off now. It's hurting my ears. Hey? Go on then. Have you seen my sister? Say it. No. I love you Josie. Ah ah! He's so cute! Can you hear me? Yeah, course I can. Is that alright? Can you put it in? Thanks. Are you taping? Thank you. Ha? I'm taping you right now Grace. Are you? Yes I am darling. You fucking tape me you dirty cow! Yes I fucking I am you dirty cow! Fucking Josie! You fucking slag! Don't you fucking start with me! You are . You dirty slag ! It hasn't, hey it's not, well I ain't even finished this side. No. Don't you switch that on. you slag! Who you fucking tal You didn't, look. What? Yeah. Say something and I'll repeat what you said. Danny's a wanker. Danny's a wanker . Yeah. Ya.. Okay. Let me see it. And Danny's a Chink. And Danny's a Chink. Can I see it a minute. Er er Can you hear Where's it? where's Danny you know? Can you hear it? Ooh ooh ooh ooh! What? Well that. Hello. How much does it cost? Look. It might get Well what is it? What is it? Hello Darling. I'm taping her,sh , she's a prostitute. No it's not that. Everyone fills her up. Are you, well, are you are you taping it? Yeah. Josie . Hey? Well I'll do it in a minute. Co , coming round Saturday? Warren's a wanker as well! Well say something. Is that for school? No it's erm for a college. It's not for the school, it's for a college. Daniel's a rude boy. I can hear that. No he's not . I can hear that. Warren's a wanker. Yeah I agree. No, not really. Not really . I don't think you're a wanker. That's it from Daniel. The rude boy. So what's it for? It's for a college of teenage language Come on, let's go. school. Let's go. Listen to me. One two, one two. Listen here, I can pick you up from over here. Talk then. Are you gonna pick me up? Let me see if I can hear. It's, can you hear me? Fuck! Yeah. Yeah. Josie? Yeah. I'm not filming you, I'm just taping you. So Colin how are you? How are you Joe ? Come on! Talk! Why are you doing it now? Why am I doing it now? I can't hear you. Why are you doing it out of school? Daniel you're such a cunt! Shelley ! Hello. Hello! Do what? Piss off! It is weird. What you doing? Weird! That's, that's what they wear on film. But you can't think that. How much? Six people in my ear. How much? How much? I don't know. How much! I don't know! And that hurt. Get a one. I don't know! Urgh! Oh that was really good Daniel. Can you go Oh! Bloody hell! Aargh! Hey you rotten bastard! Yeah, I'll take your little toy and smash it to pieces! Mm. Take these back to your class. Come on! Enlighten me. Is there any music on that. Ooh look there's Nick! Is there any music on that? A few things I taped off the radio. Alright then. Right. I wa , I just want true things. He told me he dumped you is that true? No it is not true. I protest. Are you taping? And Will she catch up with Warren I'll Do, do me a , do me a copy of this tape. And I'll ask you some private questions about Nick. Woo ooh! Well you got , you got it al , you got it all there haven't you? Would, would, would Woo ooh ooh! Private eh? Private! Excuse me ! Like, you don't Sorry! don't you feel sorry for him now though? Why? Look at him, he's all alone. Er er ah ah ah erm What d'ya keep cutting up? . I'm just taping, you know. It's just nothing against us. Ooh! Ooh! The traffic. Ah ah! I wish they'd stop . I'm going to It's not, this is not legal. I'm so dirty ! Warren! Warren! Look, watch this . Come. Sorry! My old slosh bucket! Look, leaving Nick all the way down there all on his own! What a shame! Well he's all the way down by the pelican. Da doo doo doo doo doo doo doo, da doo doo doo doo doo doo doo, da doo doo doo doo doo doo . Are you gonna talk about anything interesting? Or shall I just turn it No I won't. Oh have you got it on? Yeah I have. Oh have ya? Oh well don't, you know. Oh come on! Look at the bus. Oh wow!. Oh I was gonna say, yeah. What? Oh shut up girl! Josie! Ha? See if that, see if they can get some of that beer, or whatever's Ah! This er, come on, come on we're allowed to get. come on, come on. I want you on tape. Loads of talk. Shut up! I'm not Come on Shel, come the other side of me so I can get you both wah, wah in my So who do you fancy? Carly. I don't fancy anyone. She don't fancy anyone here? Shelley fancies Robbie out of Take That. I'll tell you what It's disgusting innit? She likes this song Come on, come on, come on, come on, Take That Honey . Alright. Or anyone out of East Seventeen. Brian. Brian? She know Bri I love Brian! She knows Brian! I know Brian. I know Brian! Brian's a cheat. And, and that When did you last see him. Ages ago. She don't know them, she just saw them. No! I said hello actually. Oh she said hello! Oh my God! Ha ha ha! No my friend says my friend's boyfriend knows and she went out with him for a, like a year and he was, she was . Who was that? Oh shit! It really hurts. Does it? Sorry! When someone whistles. Little kid just whistled Cut out the whistling. Hello. Hello, hello. Ah! The lorry! This is fun, I like doing this. Do you? Yeah well it's not bad. Is erm, are there any more there? No. You just get up when Steven goes and then Wurgh ha ha. You had a phone call then? Is that where you were phoning from? Yeah. How d'ya know? It erm, oh, look at these pricks! I could hear that. How comes you dumped Nick? I didn't like him. Didn't like him? Went off him. How long was you going out with him for? About twelve weeks. Twelve weeks? Of my life! Oh my Lord! Well why did you go out with Nick for? I was only a kid when I Crap! kid when I went out him. Yeah , Lucy kept saying urgh! Urgh! They're on the . And I was going, that's interesting Lucy. Yeah. Brian. That's why every time you walk past and Brian says, Brian says, I'm going I should be so lucky . Er ah er Ow! Daniel wants . Daniel wants what? To be deceived Go on Daniel. Go for it! No way! Go on matey! Mark. Did you see that er D'ya wanna fight? where they were talking No. about that, that . What do you wanna do? Car ! . You're so rude ! What if I hadn't had anything on underneath? What if I hadn't of had anything on Nasty! underneath? I honestly don't care. Are you coming on Saturday? No. He's coming to me Friday. No. Coming to see me Daniel? I'm going to my mum's. Oh oh fuck it! Going to your mum's? Yeah. I'm free Daniel! I'm free! I thought you said you loved me? I'm free. Don't you understand Daniel? You can Sure. have me now. What about you Warren? Are you coming? Hello. Warren. Are you coming? Are you coming ? You going? I dunno. No but I want to. What you doing? No I'm not! No you're taping it! You can hear it. No I can't. Yeah. Look at those. You are. Don't lie ! Don't lie. Oh! So why are you smiling? Why are you? What? Give me a kiss. Is this going? I don't like this privacy stuff. Hello Warren. Hi! I like this. Ooh!hoo ah ! Hang on. Is that ? I'm gonna sing now. Oh sorry! . Don't start. Wah! Wah! Wah! Woh oh woh oh, yay yay love you more than words can say . yay ee yay love you more than words can say. Love you more than tomorrow. I is it ? Woh woh woh . Are you? Oh hang on, give me that tape. Excuse me. How, how are your children's education going? Did yo , did you hear that? Excuse me. Excuse me. Do you have er children? Excu , excuse me. Excuse me. How's your children's education going? Oh! Well I've done my little bit. . Aargh! Right, I wi , as you know, just a quick one . I'll just I won't scream very highly cos you're my mate. Can yo , can you hear me? I can hear something. Can you hear me? Yes I can. You can. You can. You can hear me. I better walk on tip-toes to right well, you know now let's just give, you know, I mean you can't see Zane's bum. You've seen Warren's, you've seen your brother's now your brother, you know is, quite nice and, you know and come on, I've gotta tell you. Excuse me! This is our private conversation. Only a girls' private conversation. I promise, of course. You see Warren's one? See Warren's one? Yeah. That's lovely, lovely, lovely, lovely! . And, and you know Daniel Yeah. that, that it's nice and shapely, you know. I'd like to, you know, just sort of like Zan, bend over ! Zan, bend over ! Excuse Ah ah. let me have a look. There's nothing there. Well you can't, you can't, you can't There is nothing there. you can't, you can't really see but, you know, you just have to you know you know Yeah. That's mine. No, you're not doing nuffink. No you're not budging Janet! That's nasty. Can you hear me ? Say Warren's got a nice bum. She said Warren's got a nice bum. Oh. Daniel walk up ahead and let's see yours. Your sister's not allowed to comment on yours though. Cos if she does she's a bit of a pervert. Will you keep still. You're too tall! Mm. Vision Turn, turn, turn, turn You said it in my ear. turn, turn, turn. That's was my indicator impression. Oh right. It's good innit? Yeah. I suppose so. What d'ya mean you suppose If you say so . I got Idan on this tape telling me he loves me. So sweet. Fucking lying cunt! Zang is a prat! Do you want to stay there? No! This is girls' talk. It's really personal. Yes we are. Come on, let's talk. Come on then . Excuse me! Yes? It's my drink. You deaf It's my ear! Oh sorry . Oh sorry! Get Warren. Warren, just nicked my Coke! I have the evidence on tape. Gimme! Gimme! Don't open it. Don't shake it! Don't open it! Don't shake it! It's not mine you know. It's not mine you know . It's not mine. It's my daddy's. Your daddy's ? Yeah, I'm gonna give it to him. Mm. It's his birthday present. Now give me it back! Mm mm. Bit tight though. I want my can of Coke back . Come on! Come on! Come on! Come on! Gimme it! No I'm turning it off now. Woh oh oh oh oh Oh go on please. No. I'm turning it off now. Hel I think Daniel's a bit violent myself. So So what's the situation with you and your wife Shelley? Shelley . Yeah, what's the situation, come on, between you and your husband today? He said he abused you and I'm his daughter and he abused me! Come on. Well I can't Come on! Wha , what's the situation? Well I'd leave him . Warren, she said she's leaving you. Fucking ! She said you're a fucking bastard! Ooh! What are you saying ? I think your glasses are on. Come on, come on, come on, come on! Come on! Whose are they? Mine. Are they yours? Yeah. Zang, let me try them on. Hello oh! Let me Zang. Oh oh ! They look alright you know. You look fucking good! Wanna turn it off now? Can you get closer to the Sorry! You look like a poof! Is it, is it taping? Yep. Come on then. Are you taping. This is just an excuse for him to walk Well they next to me, close. You try them on. No.. There, there. Bu , are they actually glasses? Yep. Yes they bloody are! Everybody asks us that. Oh yeah. Just give them here. Let's have a look. Let me have a look. It's good see if they'll fit. Ha. Good innit? Does it make me look clever? Makes you look quite thick if you ask me. Makes me look like Phoebe. Thanks. It's okay. ! In that episode right she gets pregnant And er, Todd dies. and she, he, she goes down to the abortion centre right after and he dies ! And Todd gets run over. He gets run over by a truck. Yeah, I know that as well. Yeah he gets run over. Ah ah! Splat! Todd's everywhere! Was he in , in this one? like that ? What's Dreadful! the matter? You know Mr he's, he's not gonna be our head of year any more. I'm happy. What a shame. But I ain't gonna be there long anyway so So oh oh! But if, but if Shut up you old tart! Ooh ooh! Language please! Come on, come on, come on, come on! Shut up! . You got it on? Ha! Come on, come on. Well have you? Yes I have got it on. Come on, come on, come on, come on, Shut up! I'm falling ! If you shout too loud Come on, come on in the microphone it cuts out on me. Oh sorry. I can't hear now. Ooh sorry! I'll have to turn it up again. Oh it's alright now. I'm sorry! So, can I come over on Saturday? Yes you mm mm! Sexy! Phworgh! What? Ah! Yeah you can come round Saturday. Invite Warren. Invite Warren. And Mark. And not Mark You can ask Warren to bring Mark. I'll invite Mark. But,o I keep talking to this. So he said spin on it! Spin on what? Ah, he gets on my nerves sometimes. He's such a flipping bastard! I mean, I've got I'll tell you if he's coming it right I'm gonna get some and beat him up. Can I watch? No. You'll have to go and buy tickets then. Thank you very, very, very, very much. My name is Freda. I come from Sweden. Sweden, I come from Sweden. from Sweden. I eat cheese. Ya . . Yes I, I come from Sweden, I eat lots of cheese, ya . Give me your hand Give me your hand darling. darling. And you still know how to do you se do you feel the same am I only dreaming or is this burning Am I only dreaming or is this burning Shut up! an eternal flame.. Bed and breakfast. You've just missed the bus. Come on. Ah ah ah ah ah. Oh my God! This traffic is bloody terrible! Terrible! Come on! We'll miss the bloody . Oh oh! Come on! Now! Now! Run! There's, that's our bus. We're gonna die! We're not gonna make it. There's two buses. Which stupid person that bloody ! Ah? There's your mum. What? Yeah Shelley. I'll see you later. Is that your mum? Alright. Some people! Oh dear . Right, I've started. Okay? Kerry! Come in. What? Gotta do your maths homework Let's hear your speech Kel. Who told you? No, go on. What was it, Malcolm X is a Malcolm X Go on. The black nigger! He was a black nigger! Right. So But a , a black nigger what? He was a black nigger what? No, stay away from you! Go on. He was a black nigger what? He was a black rude boy. He was a black rude boy. Really? And you, what do you think Malcolm X is about? Fucking I dunno if I feel like doing this shit. No, she's not Yeah right. she's not, she's not. What do you think, what do you think, what do you think Malcolm X wa , X was about? Ah! Now tha ,tha that black chap Yeah, that black prat face. Yeah. So what's the difference between black and Malcolm X? Well actually I like Margaret Thatcher cos she's a Well there's more violence in it. white dude! And th , there's, there's more violence. I believe what Malcolm X and erm Malcolm is a king, erm Believed in. bu , believed in but no more violence. No more violence or anything. Oh oh. Oh. Right. Well what, so what do you suppose Malcolm X and Martin Luther King They're all black niggers! Fuck you! Fucking ! No ! Fuck you! Oh hang on. Is that a joke. You're not joking? Yeah but that's not funny right? What? Okay then. Fuck you! Fuck you! Yeah! Yeah! Fuck you! Fuck up! Fuck up! What with my ? Shut up! My, my You wanna shut your mouth! Shut up! Oh! What do you have Oh! to say Della? Shut! Shut up! Oh good grief start the dog off. Fuck off! Fuck you! I'm a black man! So, get the fuck off! Fuck ! Ow! Right woman! D'ya wanna fight till you're you're dead ! You're dead! You're a dead girl! No! You are gone! Bye-bye. Speech, speech, speech, speech! Speech , speech, speech! You black I'm black and I'm a nigger! Fuck you! Er er , er er er Er er! er Really? Really? We didn't know that. We didn't know that. Sorry Kerry I thought you were Chinese, you know. Urgh! Urgh! Er, er er, er er, er er , er er! Malcolm X Kerry that's not that's to keep the vampire away. Pete. Boo ooh! Rubbish! Boo ooh! Boo Kerry, you're late. They're thinking Boo! Malcolm X shit. Rubbish! Talk about . Look at him, he's so ugly! Oh, don't you like him? It is so damn ugly! Oh! Kerry's not allowed to mention that. Innit? With your little Oh no! glasses and your little Oh no! Ah! Look at his Look at his t-shirt! Look at his t-shirt! But he's so black. I'm black and I'm proud of it. Oh! Black woman! I'm not black I'm a Wow! Chink. I'm a Chink. Oh my God! You owe Now black negro. You owe thirty P. Ya. Yeah but you're a half negro. Thirty eight's not very good. You're a half negro. I'm a half negro. What are you? You're the piddly one. Yeah? Er, I'm you're a raga. Yeah, well raga what? What part of you, you ? Yeah I'm a raga. You know, a raga. Oh maybe, you saying I am a raga. Kerry, come back when you've got some trousers that actually fit you, okay? I'm here! Bubble. I'm here! . Woo woo woo woo woo woo woo woo! All mad! You better phone number one, and this is gonna go, and she's gonna have fun. . Don't blame it on the mother-fucking and I could fill the whole fucking , A is for apple, K is kill, I'm killing, killing if you wanna rock that there, come on. I'm rocking to the . Aargh! Aargh! I did it! That was good. That was very good. That was But you haven't Don't know the rest. got the rest of it. Don't know the rest. You forgot the rest Um. of it. Yeah, you didn't get it. You didn't get it. I'm a Brixton man! Hackney! Wah! I'm a Brixton man! Brixton man what? I'm a Brixton man, okay? But you're a Brixton man what? I'll show you up , man, I'm telling you. Yeah? Bum! Bum ! Aargh! Aargh! Aargh! It Truran, Truran, Truran, let me just tell you, I'm tape recording you not filming you. He's looking at, he's I know. I know. Have you noticed the way I keep going er er, mm mm. Bang! Bang ! Where's he get that from? I could have just Did you know, cos you did you hear about yesterday when erm when that lot smashed the Jewish people's window? Yeah. Yeah. I did actually? Yeah? D'ya know they done it again? I know but the Twice. The police are after them now. Are they? Yep. And d'ya know it And they'll get them. it was War , it was erm Kevin Oh yeah, might have known. Mark , Warren, and Oh God! Roger and all that lot. The police Woh oh! are after them now. They've done loads of them. Not just Jewish people, all different people's cars. Well if they be racist. Mm mm, mm mm. Found any rowing jobs yet? No, I'm going rowing down the rowing club. You're going rowing? Yeah! Rowing? You got to get some exercise. What to get rid of your big bum? What big bum? Ow! Sorry! Who's got a big bum? Josie's fifteen wi , in May, in May. She's fifteen in May? I'll be fifteen in a couple of weeks. Blimey! Kerry's not fifteen yet! I wish I had a video camera to tape your pretty head. Josie's not fifteen yet! Kerry likes Malcolm X. Kerry is a batty man. He fancies Michael . He's fancies Michael . This is cool. Woo woo! Shut up you fool! you wear shirts and it Women don't matter what women do not snore, or burp, or fart, therefore they must bitch, or they will blow up. That is really good. I just got my dad going. Women do not snore burp, or fart, therefore we must be bitchy or they will blow up. Yeah. My point exactly. Shana, I don't wanna see your tits particularly. Well get out the place then! God! Get out of the place. Go , Smoking marijuana now. You! I'm smoking pot. Are a dirty good-for-nothing Malcolm X thingamajig. Malcolm X. Was it taping? He isn't. Yes man. It's okay honest. What now? Yes! Oh. Fuck! Oh! A black lady coming in! Boom! Boom! Truan you just blew my microphone again. Hey! Hey! Don't touch me like that please. I'm a Brixton man! You don't mess with Brixton man okay? Truan, shut up! We er we Shana that's a really nice plastic bag you've got on there. Hey Shana we're talking Brixton, okay? I'll get a killer, I'll get you killed. And I'll get you killed like that. Okay? What like,li ,wha what what? Like I got ya! Got ya! Ya! Ya. Hey,. I thought it was pings. Yeah. No, no, he sings. Oh sings? Are you going home tonight? Eh eh! It'll be, hey!. Ow! Bang? Jo, where d'ya get that bag from? Ha? Where d'ya get the bag? Gimme some of that. , eh eh! Wild man! Wild man! Woh! Wild man! Woh! Woh! Woh! Come on, let's hear Della speak. Della. Della. Got ya. That's really good. I like that. You going jogging Shana? On your own? I get a stitch I get a stitch by the time I reach the telephone box. I'll just inform you lot Shana is going jogging cos she likes jogging, but she puts a black bin liner all over her body so she sweats. Across her arms Did you know? across her tits D'ya know that? so she sweats Did you know that? Yeah. I knew. I mean I saw her at eleven o'clock at night going jogging with a plastic bag wrapped around her arms. Let me just pick this music up. What? Has it finished? Erm, wait a minute I think your tape's finished. Don't, not I'm not gonna stand here so No , the tape ain't finished. Okay. I'm gonna shoot you now, I'm gonna shoot you now. You're gonna be dead. You're gonna shoot me and I'm gonna be dead. Alright then, go on. Bang ! Ah! Urgh! Ah! Call an ambulance ! I am dying! I think we should do that again though cos like Look at him looking at me. Yes. Do it once more I'm a black man! Okay. From Brixton come down to Hackney. To fight any man Have you noticed that to fight any man Truna isn't a white man by the way any man Truna is black, okay? Any man! I don't know if that point has been put across yet, but Truna is black. Yeah. I'll fight any man Yeah , well that's why he did it. any man, okay? Let them come. Okay? Considering Truna's only a tiny bit taller than me. Me, me I'm a Brixton man, okay? Truna, calm down. Considering Truna's only just a teenager. Just calm down . Why are you talking about Brixton for? Cos I am a Brixton man. No, no, no, no. No you're a Hackney man Tru , Truna . Okay, a Hackney man. Now why are you He's being biased. Why are you being biased? I'm a Brixton man. You're a Brixton man? Let's go and tell some Brixton men that he's saying he's a Brixton man, when he's not he's a Hackney man. Right, he's a Brixton man . Just tell . What? Truan, is any Brixton man ha , hear you're from er Hackney right Right. Brixton man don't like Hackney man as it already. Okay? Don't even talk to me about that! Eh! Eh! Eh! Eh! Don't even try it! Eh eh! About eh! About eh what? Yeah! You're gonna have to cool yourself. Eh yeah! Yeah. You just wanna cool yourself Eh yeah! about eh. Hey, I'll give you Hey yeah! eh. Eh! About eh. Ya ya. Why don't you move your body. Yeah. Ya. Oh Lord ! What are you doing? Are you as well? Are we going? Are we going? Yeah, yeah. Come on then. See you later you lot! Where you going? Where you going? Shout goodbye to me. Bye. Shout goodbye to me. Bye! Stop the tape. Don't even tape this. Woo ooh ! I don't know if I'll be allowed, I'll have to ask cos you know how it is. Up, upstairs. We're not going back to that erm Right, well I'll go and ask while you're there. Come on Tru. You can walk down with me and talk to me Tru. Right. How was school today Tru? And let's talk civilized here. My money!! Five P! Oh my good God! No fifty P. All my money! How was school today Truan? Mm. School was okay. Had to go to, school was okay. Just that little pretty voice like that. Like this. That, and this and and that, and that and this and that,ooh ! That and like and like that ! Ooh! Ooh! Ooh! Ooh! Yeah, well I did. See you later. Ding dong merrily on high heaven There's my dog. It's called Dempsey. .Ding dong merrily on high . Hello Fran. Hello. Don't! Be careful Jo cos we're, we're ma , we're mak , we're doing something. You're, you're doing something. Alright? Here we go! Mum. Can I What? go over to New Flats for a little while? To get some taping. Yeah, but make sure, you know No ! No ! Shut up Fran. Where are all the I did tapes gone? Er , in that Oh yeah. Thanks. No! Can you take Dempsey for a walk? Er yeah. Mum , I wanna go. I wanna, I wanna Ding dong merrily on high. Dum dee dum. In heaven we are singing. Jo! Ding dong What? Come here. What? Can can I borrow them earphones? No, they're not mine. They're Erm er school's earphones. They belong to my school. What! I want to come with you . No ! Look! What are they mine? Yeah. Thanks. So what you gotta say about Glen? So what is it? Glen, is a batty rider. He loves riding up and down . Glen is a batty man. So why is he? He does daft things Glen's a cheap Stop Glen is a cheap, don't forget that. Stop a minute, bend over, I've gotta write down erm who's talking to me. Er er I just gotta write down who's talking to me. Kerry. Me. Your best friend. Best Alright then. Josie. My best, best friend. Alright. Best, best, best, best friend! Occupation? Pupil. Ah! My pen's running out. Oh my . Student. Have you got a pen Kel? My brother's usually got a pen. Wait a minute, I just gotta erm what are you? A best friend. Best, best, best friend! Best , I ain't got enough room for all of that. Friend. Erm flats. Flats. Erm New flats,. Oh it's alright, it's working again now. Come on then. She can't hear . I can hear actually. In fact, I can hear everything you're saying clearly. I've never heard anything so clearly in my whole entire life. Can you hear that? Yeah, I can you. Some boy come up to my microphone and burped down it, I nearly died! What's this? How are you? You alright? Not bad. Fine. Alright then, I'll meet your friend. Who's your friend? I'd say, I would, I'd take the bags. Yeah me. Who's the friend Kel? Hit me with it. What did he yeah he got through to Russia. He got, that's what, are you taping it? Okay then. Jessica. Yeah. Jessie! Yeah. again. Eh? Jessie , get your big bum here! What? Get in the car. Hello. Is Virginia in? Hello. No, Hi! What? Yeah. You going to the shop? Hi. Hello. Come sister. Why? Come and speak to Josie. Am I going to speak to Josie. Come and speak to Josie. Alright. I won't hear. Come and speak to Josie. Urgent. Okay. Louise. Where's she go? Ha? I dunno. Come in. Oh right. Thanks. Yes. When I came here Ha? No, I I, I don't know who did it. No! No! Jo. Hi! Hello. Hello. Was How are you? Fine thanks. How was school? Boring. Boring? But you made a lot. So So come on Jess, come and make some conversation with me. Jessica? Why? Why? What is this? What is it? What? Here are look, put this to your ear. Hello Jessica. Can you hear me? Yeah. Right, I'm taping you. Oh right. For a project. Jessie, No ! Jessica? No I Jessie! Yeah? Okay, you wanna put this on the table? Er er You see? What? You see? I see, and I'll have those Hu Hula Hoops. I love ya? No. Yeah. I love, yeah ! You're no good over there. She said if you're his girlfriend. Urgh! No. Why? Wouldn't waste my time. No? I'll do She says why? Why? No, it's not, no, no, no. She didn't really say that? She says that , she says, she says she said you're, you're nice, you're pretty, you know, whatever. No, she got it really ! No, no, no, no. ! No, oh oh, no, no okay. You got that wrong, you're not pretty. You're not pretty. It's Malcolm X look alike here. I've got it all down on tape what he thinks about Malcolm X. It's very, very interesting. No. Very boring. Have it on tape? Well the wes , wait a minute, let me stop it a sec. Get off the bike! Well I can't? I wanna go Don't sit on the back of the bike. Ow! Get off the bike! Come here. Joseph wants you. Ally come here. Ally, what do you think of Stoke Newington's score? Hmm! Don't you think it's crap? I'd say good. Are you a woman? You've got a microphone there. I haven't got a microphone. Are you a woman? Not a microphone! You're such a div! It's an earphone. Oh! Shane, what do you think of Stoke Newington? It's a radio you div!! You're so stupid ! I don't believe them. Play it then. Come on. I've got earphones on, how can I play it to you? Well, if yo , if you're doing something but Ha? You I can't hear you. I'm playing my music Shane. Will it come out of here? I ain't got speakers attached to me, you know what I mean, Shane! I don't walk No, with about with speakers like this. let it come out of that thing there. Let it come out of there. It can't come out it's a fuc It's the volume! So what is it then? It's the volume. Show me then. Stereo Shane! Stereo! Well play it! Right! Now what do you think of the school? Which one? What a pussy! Are you women? Well I'm not a man. I think you are. I haven't got a cock. You're a lesbian I haven't got a I haven't got one of them. I'm not a lesbian. One of what Shane? Say it Shane! Go on say it! I, I , I don't have a Alright. Prepare to go to sleep. Well I haven't got one of those. Yes . Go . Come on. You do it too. No you do it. No, you do it. I've got a wicked joke. Just , fucking tell me ! Alright! Alright! There's this la , there's this girl right? Yeah. And she says yes every time she got her bubble gum in, she says no when she ain't got the bubble gum in her mouth. Right. Right? This man knocks on the door Right. and he goes, can I come in? She goes yes,, she goes Right. yes. And sh , lay one, he goes can we go in your bedroom? And he goes yes, she goes yes. He goes yes. Alright No yeah. she goes yes, right. Right , I'm listening. Come on. And she goes can we sit down? And she goes yeah. And he goes can we have sex? And she goes yes. She sa , and he goes I haven't got a condom though, so can I use your bubble gum? She goes yes. So she pu , he puts it on then right and he goes, is this hard enough? And she goes no. Because she ain't got no bubble gum in her mouth ! He goes, is this hard enough still? And she goes no. She goes, is this hard enough, she goes yes. Cos he's su Oh! Urgh! Urgh! That's a good one! Yes. Alright, alright! Listen, listen! Vam , have I told you one about a, I've told you one about a vampires innit? No, no, no. Tell me then. Go on. Right, three vam , a vampire walks into a pub and goes erm Oh yeah. I know. excuse me,I want a pint of blood . Yeah. And the man goes sorry mate we don't do blood. And he goes, I want a pint of blood! So the man goes ah, chops the dog's head off. Sticks it in the cup, goes and gives it to him, he goes,thank you . And goes and sits in the corner. Second vampire comes in,I want a pint of blood. He goes alright. Gives it to him. He goes,thank you , and go and sit down. Third vampire comes in, right, the other one goes and sits down, the third one comes in, he goes yo! What's going down man? I want a pint of water. He goes, pardon? He goes, I want a pint of water. So he gives him a pint of water, he goes and sits with the other ones. And the other ones look at him, and they sort of look in their cups and going er, how comes we got blood and you got water? He goes, nah mate! Ain't you lot ever heard of tea bags? And he puts a Tampax in the water. Very good. How comes your jokes are sick? I got a joke. Come on then, let's hear your joke. There's this man right and he's married to this woman called Lorraine, but because he had, meanwhile he was married to a woman called Lorraine and he had So he was married to two women? No, he's going out with wo , a gi , a woman called Keilly, right? Right. So he's married to Lorraine, and he's going out with Keilly? Yeah. Right? Right. And Keilly says to him, if you erm, if you won't divorce your wife then I'll, I don't wanna go out with you any more. I don't wanna see you anymore. So, he goes home, he goes, I wanna divorce. They start arguing and everything and then he just chucks her out the win What? out of the balcony and he starts singing I can see Keilly . So what? What day was this? now Lorraine has gone . What? It's another one of those jokes. So what? Wow! Oh. Er so Oh! And what was that other one about the I like that one. about the sausages. Alright! Alright! What's the difference between a Oi girls! Wait a minute! Wait a minute! No oh! My one's short. What's the difference between a prostitute and a cockerel? A cockerel goes cock-a-doodle-do, and a prostitute stands with her legs open and says any cock'll do. I've got one alright. There's this girl my joke right? There's, no let me tell her. There's this girl and she comes home and she goes, mum I wanna be like you. So she went out and buy everything that you've got. And she goes out into the street and she pulls her skirt up. No you can tell it. No right, there's this lady who was a prostitute and she'd got a daughter. And the daughter comes home from school one day, and says mum I wanna be like you. And then, the mum goes, okay dear I'll go out and get some stuff. So she goes out and gets some stuff right? Alright? Well I didn't see her. And she comes back and she goes , so she goes out to Kings Cross right goes out in Kings Cross and sh , men walk, a man walks past she goes the man goes Aargh aargh ! Falls down quick There were three women and they died at the same time so God goes cos you don't all three of you don't so, erm, the first one goes: I wanna go back to Earth thousand times are better so she goes back as a President, right? Is that all she could do? A Prime Minister, a Prime Minister second one goes I wanna go back thousand, thousand times better so erm,sends him back as a queen. The third one goes I wanna go back million times better, a million times better! And he sends him back as a man. All, all right, listen to this, listen to this right. No wait, there's three men, there's three men and they're all getting sent to prison but because they've been good they're all gonna get a wish. So he goes what do you want? He goes I want the beautiful page three girl, Samantha Fox. So he gets her. The second one the second man says I want a year's, I want ten years' supply of whisky, right, so they sling it in there. So the third man goes I want ten years' supply of cigarettes. So ten years later and the man comes back, the ma they cos they've never come and checked on them they just sling the food through a but open up the cell where the man had Samantha Fox and millions of little kids come running out, all different ages and sizes, millions of them. And Samantha Fox comes out like this there's a big belly and the man comes out like this and er the drunk man just comes out, right, grrr fuck off you cunts so they stick him back in. The third man comes out like this he goes what's a matter with you? He goes you've got your cigarettes. I didn't get no fucking matches, did I? That was my little joke that. Come on, let's hear some jokes! I got Come on then, let's hear your joke. What's the difference between a tea bag and Arsenal? And an arse hole? And an Ar and Arsenal. And Arsenal. What? A tea bag can stay longer in the cup. Alright, listen to this there's this, there's this, there's this. There's this aids What are you There's aids, there's aids, right. Listen, listen, listen. There's aids and he's chasing the bum and the bum's running and the aids is going come on you little bastard and he's going leave me alone and so he runs up a tree and there's a bird there and he's got all bones on him, he's a s witch doctor and the bird goes, and the bird goes, what's a matter? He goes help me! The aids gonna come and get me, I'm gonna die! So he goes, all right, don't worry about it, he goes pouff! He's a bird. So aids comes running up. Come on, where's that little bastard! I know he's in here somewhere. Come out! He goes you whistle. He goes He goes you whistle. He goes I got one! Yeah, I'll have an orange one. Give me an orange one! Just give me one of your orange ones. Take another one off there. Oh, I gotta joke You gotta a joke? There's three spastics, there's three I can't hear! three spastics and they went to the ice-cream van. One went can I have an ice-cream please?and the man shot him died. But erm, the next one went can I have an ice-cream please?and the the man hit him over the with the head with a baseball bat and he died. The other one goes can I have an ice-cream please?and like stabbed him and he died. Policeman come over and said why did you kill all these three , these three spastics. And he goes I thought they were taking the micky out of me. Alright, listen. Right, listen, listen, listen, listen, listen! Right, I'm just thinking of it again. Right. You've probably hear all these. Right. There's this, there's this man and he, no I don't wanna say that one. Yeah, there's these three men and they're walking through the desert. Oh, I heard it. Oh yeah, I heard it. Wait a minute, I haven't You ain't heard it? They're walking through the desert and like, you know, they're gonna die, it's obvious and they see this house. Oh my god! A house! So the first man goes the house and he goes and opens the door and you hear the door. It goes and, and this woman answers this woman's ugly and you've never seen anything What's the ugliest person you've ever seen? Shane You! No, what, no come on,who's the ugliest person you've ever seen? Shane's mum! Only joking. Yeah, yeah, yeah. All right, take your mum and double it and triple her age and all warts and hairs and everything and she goes hello Yeah. Shut up! And he goes, he goes, he goes excuse me, can I have a glass of water? And she goes yes, and you can have all the food you can eat if you fuck me! And this woman's ugly, I'm telling you, there's pus growing off of her pus! Right? So he goes oh, no way, man!and she kills him, right. So this man's weak. The second man comes, he says the same thing and his brother's waiting at the gate and she goes only if you fuck me! And he goes no man and he just walks away. So the third one comes up, the other one's brother, and he says yeah I will but first of all you've got to give me a corn on the cob with lots of butter on it to make it all slippery. So, she gets the corn on the cob and she pulls gets the corn on the cob! Sticks it up her. She's going and she dies right, she's so happy, she's got a good one. And erm, he throws the corn on the cob, he goes inside gets a drink, eats some food cos there's loads of food cos you know and he goes outside and he goes quick, quick, quick loads of food, loads of food, quick, come on, come on, come on, loads of food! He goes ah, no thanks, somebody just threw away a lovely corn on the cob. Oh yeah I get that, urgh I get it. Urgh! It's the one he jagged up her! He jagged up her He jagged the corn on the cob up her pussy, and threw it and he goes no thanks, I just had a lovely corn on the cob. He eat it! It's just been up the woman's puss! Imagine that, innit? It's gotta nice flavour to it, fishy kind of like. So erm Little ones, how's school? How's school? Hansell! Gotta a joke Yeah I do. Come on then, let's hear it. Right. Can you shut up and keep still! I can't hear him. Shut up! Don't fucking hit me! Ooh! Ooh! Excuse me, did you just push me? No I never All right, look! What's the, what's the, erm what can you put in your left hand but not in your right? Your right elbow. I mean, come on, it's a bit obvious. Well, what can you put in your left hand but not in your right? You can put, you can put, you can put, but you can't put your left hand in your right elbow. See Shane? I think you should stick to the knock, knock jokes. Knock, knock No thanks. I say knock, knock Who's there? Thumper I got one. Right, let's hear it. little boy right learn his A B Cs for the next day a b c d Oh, I know this one! Shut up! and he goes to his mum, Mum? and she's cooking he goes Mum?erm What does A mean? Yeah what does Shall I say it? what's the first letter of the alphabet? And she goes fuck! Right, because she's cut herself. goes oh okay fuck. he goes to erm his dad and he goes I've heard this but I've forgotten it. Yeah. He goes to his dad Dad, what's the fir what's the second letter of the alphabet? And he goes and he goes to his brother what's the, what's the third letter of the alphabet? And he goes He Man right. So he goes to school And the teacher says. Yeah, and the teacher says tell me A B C and he goes fuck off and he goes and she goes how dare you speak to me like that! Who do you think you are? And he goes, No and she goes Who do you think you are? He Man. Yeah. Right, listen to this one. There's, there's this Mummy bear, Daddy bear and Baby bear Oh yeah I know this one. and erm Mummy bear has to go away Bye! and Baby bear's feeling lonely and Baby bear goes,Daddy can I sleep with you tonight? And he goes no, fuck off, get into bed you dirty little shit! And he goes please! He goes no you're go away. No, I want to go to bed with you! So he goes all right! Just get into bed!what are you doing Listen, he goes, he goes what's that? He goes that's my chicken. He goes what's that? He goes that's its eggs. He goes what's that? That's the nest. He goes can I play with your chicken? He goes no. He goes now turn round and go to sleep! He goes all right then. The man wakes up in hospital, right. And his son comes in. Dad. He goes what? He goes what am I doing in here? He goes I didn't mean to. He goes what? He goes well I was playing with your chicken like this and it spat at me, so I bit its head off, clamped its eggs and set fire to its nest! I've got one alright. Knock, knock Ally, shut up! Knock, knock. This is the crap joke you were trying to say. No, it's will you all remember me in two years? Yes. Will you remember me in three years? Yes. Will you remember me in a month? Yes. Will you remember me in a century? Yes. Knock, knock. Who's there? You've forgotten me already. Right, here's a joke I like this one. Oh, I've got a wicked one next this'll make you crack up. I dunno. Listen to this, listen to this. Listen. Listen! This prostitute, this prostitute walking down the street giving it ooh, ooh, ooh, you know, trying to flash off her botty. And this man goes, right love, and he takes her in an alley way and she goes thanks, and like, he goes come on then, let's do it now. She goes what here? He goes yeah. She takes her clothes off, he goes am I? What's that smell? She goes no it ain't you fucking stink, you dirty cat! And he puts his thing away and goes away. So she goes to the hospital. She goes to a doctor and the doctor says, right, get undressed behind the screen. She goes behind the screen and he goes what's that smell? he goes get out, you dirty bitch! Go and get another doctor. Go to the hospital! So she goes to the hospital and they go right take your clothes off and put the gown on Get out, man, just, just go to a clinic. So she goes to a clinic and exactly the same thing happens. So she's walking past this church and she says if anyone can help me, God can help me. So she goes into the church. And there's a basin of holy water. She jumps into the basin and starts cleaning herself and she hears ching! And as the water goes she sees a nail in the water and she looks up and she see Jesus going like that. Oh yeah. All right. What's this? A pea on a fork. What? A pea on the fork. Oh yeah! And what's this? Dunno. It's a spider doing aerobics against the mirror. Oh yeah. Oh yeah! Oh, listen, listen! How do you spell Oxfam without looking at your top? How do I spell what? Oxfam without looking at your top. Pedro How would you like to not see for a couple of days? Cos you'll be blinded by black eyes. Ah, ah, ah, ah! I'm not even doing anything. I know you're not. Ah, ah, I know you are! No, it ain't. Right, I've got a joke. Jo's gotta joke, right. All right, there's this erm there's erm, you won't get this one but I'll tell you it anyway because it's quite disgusting. There's this man, there's these three men and they go to an hotel. Right. And erm they walk into the, the hotel and they say can we stay here and he goes yeah, you can stay here on one condition. As long as you don't go down into the attic, I'm sure I've told you this, he goes as long as you don't go down into the attic. So he goes, all right. Well anyway, it reaches night and the three of them go down into the attic. And they go down, there's this beautiful woman sitting there, right. Who's the most beautiful woman in the world? Julia Roberts! Ah look, Cindy Crawford. Take Cindy Crawford and double it, right. And she's sitting there with just a swimming costume on and they think No, no, no, not Cindy Crawford. Who? That woman, you know that advert, the thingy she does Right, the woman out of the advert, right. No, the one in the poster she's upside down on the car! No, it's just about, it's just a girl. Right, her, oh yeah, the blonde-haired woman her right? No not, urgh! Urgh! She's ugly. Anyway, they go down and they look this beautiful woman with the swimming costume on, I don't care who it is and on the shelf there's a line of cocks with, with with tongs next to them and all blood dripping off them. So she goes up to the first man and she goes,hi, handsome,and he goes,hello, hello and he's erected, right. Pulls his trousers down and he's naked and she's standing there and erm and erm and erm,and erm, and she goes, she goes erm,so what does your daddy do for an occupation, baby? And he goes erm,my dad's a butcher. She goes chung! Butcher knife, chop it off, put it on the shelf, the man's dead. The next man goes up,hello. She goes hello, cutey, wooty coochy coochy coochy bing! What does your daddy do? My dad's a mechanic. Oh yeah. Put it on the side, the man's dead. The third man comes up, he's laughing, he's not even having an erection he's just laughing. He's looking at her. She goes what does your daddy do? He goes sh work this one out, he's an ice cream salesman. I knew you wouldn't get it. Work it out. How, how she, how's she gonna cut it off if he's an ice cream salesman? licking it innit? She'll have to suck it off! Oh yeah. All right, one more. A man goes into the pub, you've all heard this but I'll tell you it again. A man goes in the pub, there's a bear sitting in the corner. Oh yeah, yeah! He goes up to the, he goes up to the bartender, he says excuse me, why is there a bear sitting over there? And he goes, this joke changes a little bit every time I tell you, I thought I'd warn you though. Right, he goes h excuse me, why is there a bear sitting there? He goes well, you know, we erm, well, don't ask okay, but just don't touch him, okay, cos he's dangerous just don't, anyway the man gets drunk, he's going he's going like that he's excuse me, you're interrupting my joke. And he done and it's all over this bear. And the bloke goes I'll clean him up, I'm, I'm, I'm really sorry about that and he I said can I have some? and he goes no, he goes no, I'm not touching the bear I'm not touching the bear and he goes, and he goes He likes the green ones. I got a purple one. he goes if you don't touch that bear you're scared of it. He goes I ain't scared of no bear!and he goes had! The bear goes aargh!and the man's running out of the pub really fast, he's running like that. and he thinks ha ha ha and he turns round grrr, aargh! He gets on, jumps on a bus. The bus is going too slow the bear's still going grrr,aargh! The man gets onto the train the train goes wo, wo! He looks and the bear's hanging off it at the side, grrr! on the window and the man goes aargh! and the man runs off and he gets on he gets on an aeroplane the aeroplane and he's safe. Spinning around on the propeller, grrr, grrr, grrr! The man aargh!and the man jumps out of the aeroplane gets back onto the train. The bear's on top of the train grrr! Looking through the little window going like that. The man aargh!and the man's running. The man don't bother to get the bus the man just runs. He's going aargh! he wants And he goes, he goes to the bartender. He goes help me, help me please please please, get this bear away from me, please, get the bear away from me and the bear goes grrr! And the bear's behind all, all blood coming out and he's going and the man turns round and he goes . And the bear's going aargh! Had. Did you get it? Cos when he first hit him he went had. No, I could tell you a really boring joke that goes on for ages. Go on then! Go on then! All right, there's a fortune teller and the man goes to the fortune teller and the fortune teller goes and he goes what? and he goes and he goes what? and he goes and he goes what? and he goes and he goes what? and he goes he goes he goes he goes i he goes I can't tell you, this is, this is, this is awful! All right, it's, it's worse than dying. He goes look, I'll write it down on an envelope, I'll put it in a little envelope and you look at it before you die, but promise me you won't look at it before you die cos if you look at it before you die, it'll happen to you. So the man goes all right. Man walks home and the man's depressed, he walks like this he has to buy a new pair of trainers on the way home cos he's dragging his feet on the floor so much. So, he gets in the house and the woman goes to him,what's the matter, darling? Cos she's got one of them voices, you know. She goes what's the matter, darling? And he goes, he goes, he goes well, you know, and he tells her the story. She goes let me read it and she reads it and she goes and he goes what? and she goes and he goes what? and she goes and he goes what? and she goes and she goes aargh! And she goes get out of my house now you little bastard! And he gets out. He won't argue with her cos she's . She's ready to kill. So he gets in a cab, he's got nothing, he just gets in a cab and he goes, he's sitting,sit sitting in the cab and the man goes what's the matter? He goes well, look and he tells the story. And he goes and my wife threw me out, I don't know what to do. He goes let me read it. goes and he goes what? and he goes and he goes what? and he goes and he goes what? and he goes and he goes what? and he goes and he goes Get out of my fucking cab, you dirty son of a bitch! He gets out of the cab, right. So he gets out of the cab. So he's walking down the street, trying ah, trying ah to get his mind off this and he gets on a train. And this posh man says to him you know, erm, like what's the problem okay? And he tells him the story and he goes and the man threw me out of the taxi. He goes well, let me read it. Because, because I'm a complete stranger so I don't have to spend time with you at all, so you know. And he gives it to him and the man goes and he goes what? and he goes and he goes what? and he goes and he goes what? and he goes and he goes what? and he goes and he goes get off of this train, now! And he goes you don't have to tell me and he goes get off the fucking train. So the man gets off the train. The man gets on bus. Sitting on a bus. Bus conductor ,, tickets please,tick what's a matter, mate?well you know and the man threw me off the train and listen, he goes come on gov, give me the letter I'll read it. I done it silent, see. And he gets up and he goes get off! This is my bus and I don't want you on it! So he gets off. So the man's walking down the street and this little Chinese kid comes up to him, man,Hello. If you come and work for me, this time next year you'll be millionaire. And it's twelve o'clock. So the man says all right. The man goes and works for him. It's five minutes to twelve, right, a year later and the man's just queuing up to become a millionaire and the Chinese man goes we are close friends, yeah, we've, we've ah so. You tell me why you were depressed when I first meet you. He goes all right then and he tells him. the man threw me off the bus and he goes all right then, let me read it. The man goes He goes let me read it. So anyway,he reads it Oh, shut up, Petro! And the Chinese man goes an and he goes what? and he goes and he goes what? and he goes and he goes what? and he goes and he goes what? and he goes and he goes get off of my boat! I know the Chinese accent has disappeared now but he goes now! He goes I can't swim! He goes he kicks him off I can't swim, come back! So he goes you'd better read the note then! And he can't get the note out of his pocket and his trousers are all stuck to his bum, and he can't get them out and he's digging it looks like he's digging out his pants he's going he pulls it out and takes the envelope off nearly and the waves are coming at him and he goes to read it and the wind blows it away. I got you lot going and the wind blows it away. he's done all that and then Yeah, he's just Oh yeah. No, that was the whole point of the joke cos you lot are all sitting there giving it What is it? What is it? And then you say, well that's it and they say, I didn't want to know anyway. Hold them a sec please Can't you lot afford food? Yes. can't you afford food Shut up! Don't bother thinking about hitting me or saying anything about me cos I'm swear when I catch you I'll kill you. Shane, come here a minute please! Where have the earphones gone? on the floor. Where? Oh yeah. Shane! What? What's your name? Raphael. Teenage mutant hero turtle oh sorry. Where do you come from? West Yorkshire What? Where? West Yorkshire. Oh, he's so cute! West Yorksh Oh don't, let him go. Let him go he don't wanna talk! Petro, shut up! He's such a little shit. He's really good. God, what rhythm. What rhythm! That's all right, I'm just why has he got an American flag wrapped around his head? Because he's a Oh right, he's meant to look cool. I understand. I get it. Right. Right now Petro. Dang, da da da dang! Oh! My ears. Ah, hurting from the earphones. Doo No, don't go! Giving it a try? Er? Have you got Eco. Yeah. Can I lend it, whenever? I like it. I played it. Do you know how to play it? Yeah. Kerry showed me. I went up to his house when he had it. What, what, what, where When can I lend it? What are you talking about? Eco. Eco. I quite liked that. It was a bit shit but I liked it. It was more than shit it was a load of shit. Yeah, but you lot like fighting games. It's a nice little dolphin. When can I lend it? Today? I ain't got anything. I've only got Batman and I can't give you Californian Games cos it's not mine. Eco. What? woman. She's the biggest woman Leave him! I think it's quite good. It's not the best game I've ever played but it's all right. a woman. She's a woman he's not he's a man, he's a man! And he's what Eco the dolphin, is he a woman? That's kind of like buying Barbie on Gameboy. Barbie. No, but Barbie's a woman. Yeah Really! God, that takes a lot of knowing that does. I mean I didn't realise cos she had these lumps coming out of her chest and I thought she had cancer. And I wondered what she had blonde hair for. Yeah, all right,go and buy Barbie. It would've I bet he couldn't know whether it was gonna be good or but I bought it. I think it's good. It's just a bit slow that's all. I think it's good, I liked it. I'd play it again. Oh shit. J J, what's going on with J J. What do you think? Do I look nice? Rava. Now tell me how to walk. How do I walk? I'm coming, I'm not staying here on me own. I've got nothing to talk about now. I'm pretty bored now. He's ringing your buzzer! I'm here you fool! Virginia Oh, it's really hot in here, Virginia, it's boiling! Let's have a conversation with Virginia. It's boiling! It's boiling! It's so hot, Virginia! Get her to talk. Don't tell I'm taping her. Get her to talk Hot innit? If she asks what that is on my chest say it's a volume thing like a rad say it's, it's a radio. It's hot innit? Boiling But not unless she don't ask. It's so hot, I better take my coat off. Yes. Take it off then. Are you gonna let your little brother to get away with that? Even I don't let him get away with that and he's not my little brother. Oh my god, he pushed you! I did say hi. She did say hi! I just didn't hear her. Oh, she went like this. Kel, Kel anything good happening at school? Oh, she goes college! Whoops! I thought she went to school. Sorry. Was there any fights. Mind you, I don't suppose you get many fights at college because they all talk like that. You know? And they all walk about and sit in circles you didn't have an argument with a teacher or anything interesting? Who with? Let's hear it. Talk to me baby. Yeah, who with? Tell us the argument. What was it about? Because one of the typewriters is broken and she blamed it on me. So what did you say to her? Hey, bitch! No, sorry, what did you say? What you looking at me for? What teacher was this? She become, Miss stupid cow! Mrs Miss That's it. Is that an alarm going off? It's really loud. It's really, really, loud. Hi, Shane! Let me see your music . Let me hear your music. It's really good music. In fact it's so good Good innit? Hello, my name's Don't tell me your name I don't want, it's not live! It's it's just where, it's just where you're picking up everything. Say hello to me. Hello. Not you I've got you on there already. Talk to me. You cunt! Goodbye! I wanna hear it. No, say it! Oh, I got it. Okay, where else can we get some conversation! Just wanted to talk to you. What about? You having dinner? Yeah. What's for dinner? Fish burgers, mashed potatoes and beans. Can I have some? No. Oh thanks. Oh what! Ice cream van. oh, you're having dinner now? Yeah. eat it? I was kind of like in the middle Well, Clint, can you come and talk to us when you've finished it? Why? We want to talk to you. Because we want to talk to you! Since when has he wanted to talk to me? Since he started fancying you. Not really, not really, not really. No he just just come and talk to you. What about? About anything odd. Odd That's why we can talk, talk about anything. Ain't you gotta revise for exams. I'm only a fourth year! took my exams! Good for you! I had one on Monday, Tuesday. Monday was a Science one and Tuesday was Maths and tomorrow I've got Computering. Well, you must take exams earlier cos we don't. We usually, It's mock. we do ours, we'd done our Science and Maths and that was it All right, see you later. What, when do you want us to come and knock for you? Well can't you just talk cos it's not long, just a couple of minutes just talk before you revise for a little while? I don't know Well just talk to us now for a second. know what, like, John Major looks like. Pardon? Talk now for a second. What's that? What's that noise? Ooh, it hurts. Why? Are your grades good? Yes. None of your business. Have you got a boyfriend? None of your business. Business. are you talking? Good god!have you got any games What are you so interested about? for your computer? Erm, no only built-in ones. What, built-in one's have you got? Hang On and Survival? Survi Oh I got that. Is that the one that goes do do do do, choo, Yeah. do do do do, choo, do do do do, choo. I really like that. I play it on my brother's computer. I'm always blowing the little ducks up they go, they're going like that and you shoot them and they turn into a It's really good. I love the music. It goes do do do do, choo, do do do do, choo, do do do do, choo. I've got the music? It's really good. I like shooting,shoo What are you listening to? Radio. Oh. But the cars seem to be coming What foot, football team do you support? Arsenal. All right, all right . Right. What's the difference between a tea bag and Arsenal? Don't know. The tea bag stays in the cup longer. You're terrible, Josie. Yeah. need a brain transplant or something like that. No, not me. Why, what football team do you support? I don't support a football team I support myself. What football team do you support? Gimme it Kel, Tottenham, Tottenham, Tottenham, Yeah, that's it. Tottenham, Tottenham! Wo! Oh,stick her tongue under her chin there ooh like that, ooh. She's She's trying to, she's try she's trying to say something. Okay. Right, Yeah, Right then and we'll talk. About what? See you later. Talk about what? Anything! I'm bored. All right then. See you. When I'm bored I talk to, about anything. Talk to anyone. Arsenal. Did you hear her? None of your business. None of your business. Innit? big mouth fancy him Oh my God What did I say? fancies you Malcolm X? Nn Not really. The last film I saw was Thelma and Louise. That was good. Well, it's about these two women and one of them's married and the other one's, like, she's got a boyfriend. And they go on holiday and they're not supposed to, you know, they neither of them of told their boyfriend they go in this club and one of them, the married one, starts dancing with this man and like he, he thinks cos she's dancing with him she likes him but she's just having fun. So he takes her outside and tries to rape her and the other one comes up with a gun and she says let her go. And he goes, he lets her go and everything and he goes, and when they walk away he goes stupid bitch! He goes I should've just fucked her! So she goes what did you say? He said cu suck my cock! And she shoots him. So they're running away from the police and then they get all this money. But the money gets nicked, so the one who's married, she goes and robs erm a store and then, they, the policeman pulls them over and wants to take them in so they lock him in his boot. And then this man keeps driving past them and he keeps, like, making sexual remarks at them, so they pull him over and he, she goes don't ever do that to them again. He goes you two are fucking crazy bitches! And as he walks away they, he's ran because his lorry is filled with petrol and they blow it up. And then they got the police chasing them. It's really good. It's sad at the end. Do they get caught? Pardon? Do they get caught? No, they die. Because if they went back they'd have to have the electric chair and they don't want the electric chair or the, cos that's what they think cos they've done so much. So they come to a cliff and she looks at her and she goes, she goes what are you doing? She's getting a gun out and she goes I'm not going out without a fight. She goes no, let's not. Let's keep going. So they drive over a cliff and it finishes. When they got the policeman she shot him. She goes what did you do that for? At the end they drove over the cliff going bye! Like that. Didn't you know it was Thelma and Louise? French and Saunders. Don't get me started on French and Saunders, right. Cos I can't shut up they make me laugh so hard and Harry Enfield Only me! You don't wanna do it like that! What Thelma and Louise? Yeah, it's wicked! Starts off a bit boring. First, like, twenty minutes and then it gets good. I wish Kelvin was here ah ah ah Oh I hope the tape recorder can pick this up, because, erm The wind keeps coming at me I don't even though why I've come sho oh yeah, I wanna buy something, don't I?so what I say now to people, when they say something to me, I go I go and I say no actually I'm not but never mind. What! I can't say that I hate that shop, it stinks. That shop stinks I hate going in, not that one! No! The Indian place it stinks, man when you go in there, boy, it blow up your nostrils! You don't wanna be breathing whilst in that shop. I think a lot of people have died actually breathing in that shop. Oh! Follow me! That's what we want. That was a wicked film! Ah, home sweet home. Am I talking loud? Er? Am I talking loud? No. That's alright then, innit? Sweet shop, sweet shop, sweet, I never know what to buy when I'm looking at the chocolate compartment. Er? What? Oh. That's ninety-six pence, please? Oh no, Mm? It's you. make your faces Excuse me! Excuse me! Excuse me! Right. Just pay up the money, matey please. Is he your bodyguard? Yeah and I'll set him on you if you start with me. See The Bodyguard? I will always love you. Fetch! Can I have my money please? I feel like to eat my Mars bar now. me, rich. I was gonna say me and rich, no I don't think so no that's just where they'll be a flush. Do you want a bit? Does he have to rev up his engine while I'm walking past? Goes Oh, fucking hell! Yeah. I nearly hit him over the head, I thought it was Jason. We saw Jason, you know that I hate Jason? That little short one. yeah. I walked up to him, me and Shelley, me and Shelley give it crossing the road to go to him, me and Shelley as we're walking through he crossed the road before we got to him. I'm going These are the sound of London buses. Ain't it you should see this traffic jam. Oh, alright go. across the wall! Go Coming to the wall! And Arsenal have just fallen flat on their face! And here's Teddy Sheringham with the ball! It's a goal! the F A Cup Final! Tottenham four, Arsenal nil And the crowd goes wild! Arsenal! Tottenham! Oh my god! I wonder if my dinner's ready yet? It looks like my Dad's car from here. Yeah. Maybe it is. No, it's got a sunroof. Look at them kids trying to blow er a bin liner over. I think they think it's a kite. It's a bin liner kids. Oh god, look at this man looks like he's gonna mug you innit. Look at the way he's walking along. Shifty No. Did you hear about getting smashed up? Yeah Was Kevin and that lot in it? Who is it? Kevin, Mark that's all I saw. James Yeah, yeah all that lot. Police have been questioning Mark you know. Is it? And Kevin and everyone. Police have been questioning them. Chris screwed them up. My Mum screwed them up. Is it? Yeah. She gives it, well one of them's called Kevin. Tina's saying go on Mum, screen them up it was Kevin it's Kevin Della! Della! Della! She's really listening to you boy. Della come here! Della's a dog. . Come here! They smashed two you know yesterday. And they've been smashing all different people's ones. Is it? All down the road. Little boys! Little boys! Need a good lesson taught to them. Yes. Did you watch erm The Fury the other night? No. No, neither did I. I heard it was good though and erm did you watch Amadeus? No. Have you got a television? I know he has er erm Went to school and it was pretty boring. Yeah, went to school. I nearly had a fight in school! This girl called saying about me? No, I didn't say nothing about you. You two faced bitch! I know you teachers in school? Miss we've got her. We're gonna get a new headmaster. New one? The headmaster's leaving. music. Mr Did he? Yeah. Does he know you? You've never had him? No. I take, I took music for an option, I've got him. There's only two teachers I've got, him and Miss Mrs I know,some teacher, some boy kicked him up his arse. Did he? He was screwing. he was going erm, he was going who did that? He's hairy ain't he? Yeah. I know I see it all down his back! I walked past I went urgh, gorilla! Mr Miss exc , excuse me,exc excuse me! Do you mind? This is top quality gear here. Bloody dog! Did he used to go to your school? What's the name of your school? . Sir, did you used to work at ? That's what I'll say to him, I've got him tomorrow. I hate him! He's always but I never had him. I picked music Anyone, anyone who comes into the room he them. What are you doing? When he sees me he goes, he goes get out of my way, Jo. Get out of the way and pushes me don't make me start with you Jo, all this stuff. What are you looking at? You, you, you flathead gorilla! He gives it to me erm, he goes you're just an overgrown greasy burger so I goes so what are you?away from him. Luckily he can take a joke. what are you?looked at me there's me wisht gone! Going out. No. Myself. A boy like you What boy? fourth year. What in my school? Yeah. Nick? Yeah. I went out with him. I dumped him. You dumped him? Yeah. I dumped him on Wednesday. I said hey, Mac! Not this Wednesday, last Wednesday I was saying, I just said I don't think we should go out no more. He said alright. I said bye. I said I hope we can still be friends. He said yeah. I said alright I'll meet you for school, bye. I went erm I hope we can still be friends. Makes me laugh. Josie! Yeah? Myself! No, I'm talking to Kerry! You feel But when you got it on right, you feel sort of like, mm mm mm, mm mm mm mm! And you feel like look at me! Expensive equipment. It's probably only worth about a tenner. I'd cry. I'd go Mum. I've got, I've signed a receipt. If I break it I have to pay for it. Is it? ten ninety minute tapes! T D K tapes! How many have you got? Ten! Ten! That's a one and an O. And everyone gonna listen to it? Yeah. No, not everyone just these students. I think, I don't know. B i all your tapes? What are you looking at? Yeah. All your tapes? That'll be sixty tapes. And Shane grabbed hold of the microphone and he screamed. But when someone talks to you loud like I just did the microphone seems to stop. Do you know what I mean, it don't pick it up as loud and then it comes back again. Like I'd be talking like this and suddenly it'll go . Somebody grabbed hold of it and burped down it. Listen they were all going that ain't a burp he said Fire engine, two fire engines went past woo, woo! Cos it picks it up twice as loud. Does it? Yeah I can hear the, you know the motor bike that just went past? Can you hear it? Yeah. I can hear it. I can hear, when I'm walking down the street I can hear the birds singing. You know when them girls walked past and they were laughing? Yeah. I could hear that. I can hear that car like it's just going past here. I can hear Rufus barking good as well. Picks up ever picks up this. What I'm doing with my foot. Look, listen. Put them both Can you hear it? Oh yeah. Picks everything up. It's a bit of a bummer really but you know when you've got it on and you're talking, cos I was telling jokes and you get carried away and you start thinking wah and you start telling all the jokes and everything there's a, a lot of swearing on this tape, a lot of swearing, a lot of swearing. First there's Shelley, cos first of all I didn't want to talk in it, you know, I just went like yeah, yeah, yeah, no, sort of like yes, I wanna talk down it all the time, I want them to hear my voice! And you know you get carried away you start swearing don't you? Who's been talking? Who who who's been on there? Shelley, Warren, Carly, Daniel,all people you don't know. You know Warren? The one who stands on the stairs? Oh yeah. I don't think you like each other much. When you walk past each other gives it and Warren sorts of gives it Er? Where? Come here Jane. I've gotta talk to you anyway. microphone. I'm gonna get you! Della!call her, call her . Del! Come on! I love the way she does that, she goes so stupid! You actually think I wanted you? I love that! I love grabbing hold of your chubbiness. The kitten's gone crazy. Thanks Del, thanks The kitten's gone crazy. No, totally I mean it. Totally and utterly. You know what she done this morning? She jumped onto my bed, right ah, listen to this. Just listen right. Lick the erm thing. No, she jumped on my bed and when she gets on top of you she thinks she's some little baby. And she grabs hold of my tee-shirt and she sucks it! Thinking it's a teat, you know. And she's sitting there going all over your tee-shirt but you can't li you can't tell her to get off cos it's so cute, you know, she's sitting there she's going like it's so cute! And this morning she jumped on my neck and I was sleeping and I woke up, you know what she does while she's doing it? She goes like this with her paws You know how they come in and out and they Yeah. and they're going in my neck but I don't wanna turn over cos she'll fall off the bed and I'm sort of going just on me and she's really funny. She sits there she goes and she stops and you're just about to go to sleep and she goes so loud! And yesterday she jumped over the balcony right and Jones was sitting there. Jones went like that to her and she's, Cat's following her you know and then Jones got up on the wall and Cat was looking at her and Cat was going like that and Jones was going chee chee like that and then, you know the fence there? You Yeah. know there's a gap underneath it? I went to get her and she ran underneath the gap. So I ran all the way round and coming! She went to run back underneath it. There's me don't you dare th she stopped. And she looked at me like that. I goes don't you dare, you little cat! And I picked her up. I picked her up by her neck and I said you bitch and she goes when you put your face up close to her she goes and puts her ears back and goes like that to your face. So cute! She's stupid though, she's dumb, she ain't got a brain. She don't possess one. She's so dumb! She's like you. You're dumb too. But you're cute! I've gotta take her for another injection. Soon. Yeah. She's allowed out now though. You should see her. Every time you open the door it's quick, the kitten's coming! Shut the door!she's coming towards the door ninety miles an hour. You shut the door. A couple of times she's been standing behind a door, open it, smash her brains in. And the toilet, cos there's no carpet she can stick her paws under the toilet. I'm sitting there, my foot was near the toilet, all you see was this big claws come out digging into my toe there's me aargh! you stupid She's mad! Della! Della! I swear your dog needs something. Oh no, that's rude. Della! Oh I've gotta change the earphones these one's are hurting. Della! Come here! Della! Della! Huh? Pardon? Oh, bye! Did you say goodnight? Did you say goodnight? Do you want me to go? Oh good ev I thought you meant go away! All right, how are you? I hate these earphones but the other ones hurt my ears. Can we gob on her from up here? I think I look such a div with these things on, they make me look so stupid! Let's raid Mr 's house. Go in and nick all his chocolate. Yes. Let's give it It's cos he smokes too much. I hate it when you walk past someone goes right in front of you and you sort of give it you don't care if he's ten feet tall you just look at him like this and you see this nasty greeny. Well they got this erm, greenies! Look at my greeny! And they go I think it's disgusting! It's different if teeth sometimes they go Yeah, through their teeth! It must all get caught up on their teeth. How do they do that? How do, how do they do that? But like it's different if you've got a really bad cold and sometimes you have to, you can't like sometimes you can hide it but I don't go in front of someone I always do it discreetly. I, I, I I turn around and I do it to Georgina sometimes. I go up to her and I go cos it makes her sick but I'm not actually doing it I'm just making the sound. this Turkish man in front of me Through his nose innit? Listen, my cousin does, sometimes he goes, watch this through his nose. There's this big green thing come out of his nose! He simply went through his nose there's me wah it come out like a bullet innit? wisht like that. And this, this one was hanging nasty and they and they just get it off innit and tie a little knot . Cos I hate it when you see someone being sick. They go . No. I watched erm, you know Warren? He was being sick right and he was hanging over the banisters like this these flats and I couldn't stop laughing. He was being sick, right, and I couldn't all his face was I couldn't stop laughing. Cos I hate being sick you know. Same here. Cos sometimes it comes through your nose, innit? Don't it come through your nose on you. I was talking about it the other day and you go and it all comes, it hurts and, and it comes out and you can't even hold it down either cos it just comes in your mouth dribbles out the side. Yeah I, I always know when I'm gonna be sick. Yeah, cos that taste comes in your mouth. And I start spitting. Yeah, and you, that taste there's always a taste in my mouth and then I can feel it pushing its way up. Listen And then, what was it, the big disush, discussion in Science, cos we always have a big discussion in Science, what was it today, spiders. I hate spiders. Spid I remember when me and my Mum had to catch one in a fishing net and throw it down the toilet cos my Dad weren't there and it was about that big! This woman was well one of my friends was looking at erm at tree moths, she collects tree moths, don't ask me why. She turned it over, a spider as big as your dinner plate. There's me! Cos every time I hear a spider I always grab onto someone. I go like that with my feet. I hate spiders. I don't know why but I always see them, I always see them. Yeah, like somebody else, like, you're walking down the street, like, you're in a house and, and you check it for a minute and you're like Yeah! I went into a toilet and there was none and I sat down on the toilet, looked up, they were all above the door, five of them! There's me! Got up. Didn't even go, bother go to the toilet! I was busting! Dad! My Dad come in, there's me running out while my Dad's by the door in case one of them jumped I'm so scared of spiders I hate them! I always spot them, I don't know why. Do you remember when there used to always be some on the wall there when you cou we wouldn't walk down the stairs cos in case they got us. yeah! And we used to throw books at them. Go away! And remember that Yeah and we used to spray water over them. Yeah, no, but the spiders, I remember that one that got, was on the daddy-longlegs and he was just sitting there and he wouldn't move and no one would walk down the stairs, so we were just giving it pouf pouf and all throwing things at him trying to get him to go. I'm sure he knew we were trying to get rid of him because he wouldn't go! He just stood there. He's looking at us, probably thinking I think and you know my cousin, Lee? He had one and he just let it run across his hand, a big hairy one, just let it run across his hand, all up his arm, playing with it and people think I'm sick for having pet rats! And my cousin's sitting with a spider mhm nice little spider nasty! I can understand like you picking one up to get rid of it if you're not scared of it, but playing with one, keeping it as a pet! Oh yeah. He feeds it. He used to feed it moths cos they were gonna have a spider race and he called it Rhinoceros. Spider race? Yeah,m my Dad and my erm cousin. They were gonna, my Dad said yeah well my one, no, my Dad's one was called Rhino and the other one was called Elephant and their one died. They kept it in a butter dish and kept feeding it moths and things. Nasty! So I hate like the winter. That's when they start to come in. Yeah all the moths. And they come and then flying daddy longlegs. And they come flying I hate them! And have you ever had er, erm, ever had er a fly fly into your eye or your mouth or something? The little greenfly! They do it, innit? They do it You're talking, you're talking, you're talking and they go, they go, yeah, and it just goes, it goes, a mouth!just goes wisht in your mouth. you go . I hate them. I'm sure they do it on purpose though. Look, there's an eye. Ah! They sting. And it gets stuck in your eye and you go, you go ah! I know! I remember when a bee was in my hair I'm running ah! That was your stupid old Max! He used to grab my ponytail and rip my head off! Yeah. I'm just sitting there thinking your dog's I used to hate your dog, man. I used to love him but I hated the way he done that to my hair. He used to running down, round in circles Do remember weedy Roly? No. Roly, my dog. Oh yeah. The weedy one. Oh,he was funny, man. When he used to chase his tail and I remember I was walking I was walking round the shops with him and there's this big alsatian and Roly was giving it cos you know how scared he was of dogs it was barking at him! And then the dog got further up the road and started ruff, ruff ruff! And er, and he thought he was all hard, right and he was walking, I know he's a dog but he, he, he knows, you know what I mean, and he walked past the shop and the dog come out the shop you should've seen my wisht up in my arms Couldn't stop laughing. And Rufus the other day, my brother and sister all going up to Sheila, the dog's right there, I'm going hi! The dog goes wuff wuff! This is my brother and sister, ah!couldn't stop laughing. Innit? I know, you see him, he's walking and you see him, he's going ruff, ruff and she's going and I thought, no, man, I don't care if I'm friends with her no I'm not going near her with the dog. And she's giving it, do you want a chocolate bar?it's poison I break it in half and give it to Geraldine first. I hate her. I don't know why she comes round mine. she threw my jacket so I thought how am I gonna get my jacket come and get my jacket. I hate them! Yeah, she gave me a Crunchie and I thought I bet it's poison so I broke it in half gave them a bit, watched them eat it, gave it five minutes and then eat mine! I weren't eating it until Them two, them two are silly you know police I hate them! I know! Hanging about for Kevin Yeah, and But they they always come and knock for me and you know they kicked that, you it was them that kicked down the walls? Them walls there with Wyon and Was it? that lot. Yeah. And Wyon go she goes no it weren't me, it weren't me. Listen, I goes, I don't care who it was but you better not come and knock for no more because my Mum's screwing with you. And she come knocking for me about two month's later. I was washing my Dad's car, she got the hosepipe, put it over me. She was going out to a party, I got a bucket of water, threw it over her head! She was going out to a party. And she got me again, cos I wasn't bothered if she got me, you know what I mean, cos I, I was in my house I could get changed quickly and it was hot. So I just got another bucket, threw it over her head, stuck the hose up her jumper, believe, she had to go home. She, she weren't going partying till she got changed. I was cracking up so hard. Only thing I was screwing about was, she got my trainers all wet and I was going you bitch, they're the only pair I got, the decent pair! And she's got got the bucket of water and I went boosh! She went, no don't! And I said, no I won't, I walked past her and I went boosh over her head. There's me, got her on the phone. Listen to me, I goes, if you push me again I'll grab your tit and pull it off. So she goes, no you won't ah! I couldn't stop laughing. Is it Donna's sister? Donna's? Yeah. No, the fat one is. Oh. You wouldn't think so would you? No, wait a minute! Yeah, the fat one's Donna's sister and Geraldine used to be best friends with Kelly and she lives in Big Ben. She knows Jane and that lot. Oh. And she's a bit of a slag. She don't really, you know, I mean she's got a bit of a reputation. I suppose everyone has but I hear about her a lot. In school and everything. Which one was that? Pardon? Which one was this? The skinny one. But, like Geraldine's two-faced cos she's always giving it like erm, to other people, I don't like Lucy, the one she hangs about with, I only hang about with her cos I feel sorry for her. Do you know what I mean? It's so stupid. Are they No she goes to Our Lady's Convent. What? She goes to Our Lady's Convent. A girl like that. I reckon the nuns beat her you are not to go out with boys! Boosh! Oh. Have you seen Kelly lately? No. shave up head, she's got a haircut like Donna. Have you seen Donna's hair? Oh yeah! God! Oh God! It's not like, have you seen it? Yeah. Donna's one? Have you seen Kelly's one? No. Kelly's one is like, I only got a glimpse of it, but I'm sure it's like Donna's one. Gone and spoilt her hair, man. She was so pretty, innit? She was getting tall, nice blue eyes and then she goes and does that. It looks alright, but it looked better when it was long. Yeah. Not when it was permed, just when it was long and blonde. And Kelly's looked better when it was short and curly. Shave off the head Who? Kelly? Yeah. Think so. She's got a reputation too. I mean, the difference is, I've never heard anything about Donna, do you know what I mean? Nobody's ever said but with Kelly, people have said things to me. With Ian? All the time? I mu I mean I must admit, must admit. Yeah You know in Big Ben? You know there's a car park Yeah. They're always in there. Late I must admit lately I haven't seen her with, I haven't Yeah. haven't seen her with him. I must admit. I've seen Donna with him. But I haven't seen her with him for ages! Yeah. And I haven't really seen his car a lot lately either. Yeah. If I think about it I haven't seen him at all. I haven't seen him at all. An I saw Kelly about two week's ago, no, about a month ago. What are they doing? She still living there? Yeah, I think so yeah. She hangs about with some erm half-ca I think she's black but she, she's light. I don't know if she's half-caste but but she liv I saw her Nan the other day and like her Nan, I don't cos her Nan always invites me round. She goes, come round and see me! I goes, with Kelly? I don't talk to Kelly no more. I goes, she goes, yeah, you two were really close and then you just, her Kelly, her Nan doesn't obviously know that Kelly's a little bitch, do you know what I mean? Cos it was Kelly that like, said, yeah, you're my best friend, do you know what I mean, and then made me say Kelly's my best friend, do you know what I mean? Cos I used to look up to her cos she was older than me. So I don't think her Nan really knows that Kelly does it to loads of people, do you know, cos she was Geraldine's best friend, Katie's best friend. She was I don't I don't know she just, she, she goes you're too immature. Cos you know how I hang about with you lot a lot when I was younger and we used to like climbing roofs and everything, she goes you're too immature. She started this water fight with Kevin, she was throwing wet tissue at him and cos I got good at it she goes you're too immature. I goes right then. She goes you'd better go. I said yeah I will. And I walked out and then she didn't call me and I didn't call her and that was it. Simple at that. Cos my Mum wouldn't let me call her. She goes you're not calling her up again. No way! She looks like she's desperate. No, but Donna, Donna, it looks alright on Donna, but Kelly just looks Been going Georgie's lately getting all posters off of him. What ? I got erm, Hand That Rocks The Cradle, Universal Soldiers and and he was offering me all Jean Claude Van Damm ones Is it? You know the one where her top's ripped open you can see her leg. Oh yeah. that one. He was offering me that one. And he's got all nude pictures. Della! There's me, I was going, you dirty man! Della! I goes you hang it up in your shower, innit? He goes yeah. He goes do you wanna come and see? Listen to me, I goes no thanks. Such a pervert! He's always got young girls in there with him. I wanna know what he does! But he's always Della! Here, I mean I've seen like, ten-year-old girls in there, but really pretty ten-year-old girls, you know what I mean, blue eyes and blonde hair from them flats. Yeah. And you go in there and they give you dirty looks, you know. And you're looking at a video and they sit there looking at you like that Have you seen one with black hair, black hair, short? Yeah, I think so. She's really small. Yeah, I think I have. I don't like it when they're sitting on the floor in front of the counter with their legs like that and they're sitting there and you're looking at the video and you think, well, I can't get that because that was made in nineteen-eighty-six and they might think I'm a bit weedy, so I better get something that was made recently. That's why when I, when I go round the video shop on my own I usually go Jordans. Cos I don't like going in there on my own I feel intimidated. He's alright to talk to but he's such a little pervert! You see him, cos he's, Nick goes can I have a poster?no, they're only for erm the prettiest girl in Clapton and he shook my hand and sort of giving it yeah,before he drags me behind the counter! But he had all these nudy pictures. Because I wanted Aliens three. Yeah. If you can get an Aliens three poster for me I'll pay you for it. One where the Alien's at her face. But erm, and I was looking through all these posters and most of them were of nude women! And I said, George, ain't you got any nude men? I said because at least you could have some nude men for me! And listen, he goes, yeah, I've got nude men hanging up in my shower, he goes, do you wanna come? That was what he said, he said they're hanging up in my shower, do you wanna come and see them? Listen, I goes, yeah, anytime. Cos Shelley was there. And Shelley was a joke, man. She goes in there, she's sitting looking at him like that, she just stares at him. Just to make sure, you know what I mean? When anyone's like that with me or with one of my friends she just sits there looking at you because, cos she's big, she's kind of threatening sometimes, you know what I mean? She's sitting there with a fag hanging out her mouth. She just sits there staring at him saying you make any funny moves you'll see what you get. Oh Shelley's She's erm, she's on a diet. Oh really? She's lost about three stone. It's good. I mean, you probably wouldn't see it but I can see it, she's losing it. Cos she's quite pretty actually if she lost weight. I'm gonna get her to go jogging with bin liners strapped to her bum! I could listen, I'd go, why's her bum so crinkly, like, when Jane comes. Oh yeah. This is Jane, she's got a bin liner to make her bum sweat I thought she needs it. I don't know why your sister bothers she's alright. She just needs to cut back on her chocolate. She love her chocolate, innit? Yeah! Went to see Forever Young with Mel Gibson, the one where he's frozen for fifty years and then he wakes up in Oh yeah! It was really good. The make-up was wicked! You, you'd like that. And I'm gonna go and see Sommersby. Sommerby with Jodie Foster and Richard Gere. The Oh yeah. I've never loved anyone the way I love you! Like that. Della! Come here! I like Jodie Foster. I like her in The Silence of the Lambs. Yeah Have you seen that? Yeah. Oh it was good. He was good in it too Yeah. Did you see French and Saunders do it? It was good that. He, he's smart. That man is smart. Innit? When he takes the man's face he puts it, ah, it was so bad! I That was really smart I'd just read the book as well. The book's better than the film cos it's got more detail in it. But that was nasty man, he wants to make her tit Urgh! Urgh! And when he's dancing he takes his clothes off and, and he's pinned up and he's going like and he's going and he's going like urgh! urgh! And going Precious darling!she goes Yeah. I'm gonna kill your dog you son of a bitch! Oh yeah. He goes, look, I'm breaking its leg and he's going precious, precious! I couldn't stop laughing. The little dog's going This little dog was mad, man, did you see it? It was so ugly I would've Yeah. kicked it if I saw it. Same as Chris's chihuahua. I'd, I'd love to kick it. I'd love to kick her dog. He's so tiny! I feel so sorry for it you know, up at that house with all them big fat balls of, of fat. They've probably stepped on it enough times. And have you heard it crying at night? Mhm. Right, on the balcony I can see it ruff, ruff, On the balcony? Yeah, I don't think they keep it out there all night. But it's out on the balcony a lot. Della! Come here! Cos I'm in bed right, cos sometimes I go, in the week it depends how I feel like, tonight I'll probably go to bed about about half-ten or eleven cos I'm gonna watch Ruby Wax and sometimes Della! Della! I hate that when my dog does that when he don't listen to me and somebody else calls him. But tonight I'll prob tomor like yesterday I went to bed at about ten and you can hear it calling out, crying out there. I have to go to bed early and then Mum gets me up in the morning she's going get up! First my alarm clock I hate. goes off That's what I hate! and Mum goes get up! And I, I use, I like I'm all war I, I'm warm all in my bedroom Innit? and, and it's all, like when you get in at night it's It's cold, it's cold! and then you get in the morning Gotta warm it up. and it's all warm and, and you get out warm and it's freezing even in summer and you just have to get under them blankets for another five minutes! cos my alarm clock goes off at half-seven, it goes cockle-doodle-doo! And you push it and she goes good morning! And you go shut up! And then my Mum goes, eight o'clock I still ain't up, my Mum goes get out of bed. get out of bed. You live, you, your school's quite near. Innit? You have to go miles! Miles away man! Here's my Mum, she goes, get out of bed. Get out of bed. Get out of bed! Or she gets the kitten and puts it on my face and the kitten sits there going get off me! Or you get Sam going can I play your gameboy? Boosh, round your head! And you're going yes. Can I break your computer? Yes, break it! Leave me! Easter, eight o'clock, half-seven my brother and sister are looking for Easter eggs in the house. goes, this one's for you. Thanks. He's putting them on the side, like, I'm asleep in bed, he goes this one's for you. Thanks. He's just putting, just putting, I got three eggs, I was just putting them on the bed I couldn't be bothered with them then. Thanks, just put them down. Cos I don't really like chocolate. You, I'll bring up some of my eggs, you can have some of them cos I don't really like, I only like chocolate bars I don't like chocolate. Oh. he goes, this is for you this is me, thanks. Just put it on the side That's rude. All right, Moss? It was funny though wasn't it?just taking them, it was good, it was so funny. And you know Easter after the two weeks, right? Mm. I couldn't get up! On Monday to go to school I could not get up! Cos you know my, my brother and sister went away for the week, right, Yeah. on Sunday. Can you imagine my flat for a whole week to myself? You should've come and knocked for me cos you could've come in and played computer and everything. I, cos I go to, Monday Tues yeah, Monday Kerry come down Mm. and he was playing computer with me and I meant to come up to you. Cos usu when they go away, cos they're not going away this weekend, but when they go away you should come down cos the flat's quiet and I ain't got nothing to do, sit and play my computer. And it was just so brilliant! I could leave everything lying about on the floor and nothing would get broken! I could leave a Madonna tape in the middle of the room and no one would rip it! I'd sit and watch it, you know, just put it there, sit and watch it. It was brilliant! I could watch telly and actually hear what Jim was saying in Neighbours. It was amazing! I've never, I've never ever heard Jim's voice before. Haven't you? Never! Cos every time Jim talks or my sister gives it Sam! Let go of my hair! And he's pulling her EastEnders today this child is mad! You know them hopper things you bounce on, the round balloon thing? She's got one, it's flat, it's not flat but it's kind of deflated, she's getting er, doing handstands on it and she's going my head, it's my head My brother's, my brother's doing a handsta er sitting on his head on the chair. He's going, Jo, don't leave me on my head all night, and I'm going, shut up! And Mum's going, don't talk to him like that, and I'm going, they're driving me mad! They get up at eight o'clock in the morning and say,Jo, I want my cereal. And you say how many Weetabix do you want, one? No, no, no, two. Sam, how many Weetabix do you want, one? Make up you bloody mind! And say I want Rice Crispies You pour the Rice Crispies no, no, Cornflakes I don't want no sugar on them today. I do want sugar, I can't have them now they've gone all soggy in the water, in the milk! Oh god! You just want to tell them to go home! Go, go away from me! You're so lucky! In the summer holidays I can, I can get up early if I want to. Yeah. On school days I just feel like sleeping! But I like, you know the weekend, Saturday? Yeah. I love getting up, I like, I used to like getting up Saturday cos the cartoons were on. Oh yeah. But when Sam I could put it on in the bedroom and sit and watch it and Sunday, I get up on Sundays and that that cat's ugly I get up Sundays now because Grange Hill's on. Have you seen it? The No. first ever series of Grange Hill with Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Mark out of EastEnders. I get up to watch that now cos I, and The Rut, The Rug Rats, the little baby and his, I think that's so funny. It's a little cartoon, it's just cheap and enj like Bart Simpson kind of. Oh Have you seen it? Yeah, I think I did see it. It's kind of stupid but it's kind of funny if you know what I mean cos the baby don't talk and as soon as the Mum and Dad's out of the room it's let's go and find the chocolate. It's so funny. But oh, erm your dog's attacking a car I just thought I'd tell you. Shadow. Oh that's good, cos Dempsey'll stay in there for ages now if she pisses all over there. Dempsey, oh, cos by the wall, right, and you know how he digs up the floor Yeah. when he's finished? I walked past, mouthful of dirt! Where Dempsey's kicking dirt up in my face so I go, what're you doing? Looks at me and he goes I hate him so much! I hate it you stand there and you not doing nothing Innit? And they're just looking at you! And they're just looking at you and your Mum s your Mum wants you to take him out properly, walk him down the street and you've sneaked him outside and they're just looking at you like this I hate it when they do that. With that, with that expression and like when a cat you go puss puss puss to a cat Oh yeah. and you're calling it for ages but you can't go near it cos it will run away and it goes like this to you, it goes and it goes like that and it goes yeah, and it cuts its eye at you and then you go to get it, it goes I'll jump, I'll bloody jump. I got a cat trapped up here, right, it was chasing Jones and I goes I got you now, and he jumped over the wall. Did it? From here, listen, I goes I've got you now. This is the cat over the wall and I hate, Jones always Did he make it? Mm? Yeah! I it, and it jumped back up and, it didn't jump back up, it jumped, what it done is it ran down that bit of the wall and jumped. And Jane, this is Jane to me the other day, throw your kitten off my floor and see if it lands on its feet. I hate it cos when I call Jones she stands on the wall like that, right. She's sitting down Mm. and you go to her and she just looks at you like, I'll come, and you go,and you go closer and you go Jones, come here and you come here! She goes like that, she cuts her eye at you, right. She'll go up to you and she goes she looks at you like that and her eyes are all wide,sh sh she's looking down at the wall like that to make sure it's all clear, you know what I mean? She's going she's looking at you and you go, come here, you take a step further and she gives you a dirty look and then she waits until you're that close and then she jumps! So the other day, you know what I done? What? I jumped over the other side of the wall, so if she jumps she'd have to Oh! I walked up to her, you know what she done? What? She jumped the other way round and ran all the way round the back. I hate cats! Some cat was climbing through a window and it weren't going. Mum got scared and he weren't scared That was, that was what erm Dempsey done to Jane and Mussy. You when American Werewolf come on T V for the first time? Yeah. And you gotta admit that was scary, that film, even Yeah. when I watch it now I get scared, especially the bit when she goes like that and he goes aargh I get, I get scared. That's the end of it, yeah. Yeah. Right, well, you know how Dempsey used to scratch on the door? Mm. Well we weren't in and Dempsey always used to go up to Jane, right? Yeah. So Mussy and that lot had just watched American Werewolf and they hear outside. Della! Come here! Oh no. Della! Come here! She's going in the road. Shelley, Shelley come round to me right, and she was, she was, she was stroking Dempsey and I walked in the room, this is Dempsey and he walked past me wagging his, you know when they put the tail down and Yeah. wag it? Goes to say Don't beat me! Innit? And here's me, I'm looking at him, she's going you're so cool you beat your dog, innit? I don't. It's the kitten I beat up! You know, I pick the kitten up I throw it in the air, catch it, I go like that with it wooo! I get her head, put it in my mouth. I get her head and you know Beetlejuice when he goes I gotta show you it cos sometimes she's, she's not alert and when she's like that it looks wicked cos he goes and her ears are like that she goes and I get her to play the banjo and she goes it's wicked! I just get her arms I go like that with her arm, right, and she just lets you do it, she just looks at you and says you're fucking mad and walks away. You're playing with her right, and then you've finished and you put her down and she looks at you she goes, bloody sick! She walks away and poufs her tail out like that. You think go away, you mutt! I hate animals. I hate Nicky and Squeak as well. Nicky just sits there giving it Squeak's face, Squeak grabs her foot Squeak goes they start tumbling all about the cage, you can hear boof, boof, boof! Yeah, but they always fight. You know how we used to always fight and then, well they turn round, I didn't mean to smash your face in. It's alright, Josie, I didn't mean to break your arm, do you know what I mean? And then Squeak's so sneaky, I probably told you this where she gets Nicky and starts cleaning her. Nicky loves it when Squeak cleans her, right, my rats and she gives it and Nicky's getting all and there's Squeak going in her neck and then, and then it's all quiet right. Say you're sleeping in the front room, as soon as you turn the light out and there's no sound they don't shut up. I'm sure they pick things up and throw them at each other. I swear they're so loud it's like it's like you know when you kick through a big pile Yeah. of, big pile of leaves, it's like that. Trying to sleep through a hurricane innit? It was nasty. It was like that night when I woke up and the hurricane was there, I couldn't turn my lights on or nothing I was shitting myself. Yeah. Remember when that tree fell down and it banged on Shelley's window and Shelley was giving it ah! And Shelley come back with a knife. She goes I'm gonna kill Mussy! come to my bed No this is me, I was sitting in my bedroom cos I didn't, Sam and Fern weren't there innit? I was in the bedroom on my own. And I could hear and I could hear and I turned the light on and it wouldn't come on! And my hands were going like this and I looked at my clock and it was about six o'clock and it was still pitch black because it jump back into bed. As simple as that. I got back into bed, put the quilt over my head, turned over, I went to sleep. I didn't even bother wake up when the alarm clock went I just left it ringing. My Mum had to come in and turn it off. Same as when Thriller first come out. I had to sleep with the light on. So Mum she come turn it off But man, no when the hurricane come and Shelley come back with that knife, I'm gonna kill Mussy, I'm gonna kill Mussy. Shelley, we're trying to eat our cheese on toast. I said I'm gonna kill Mussy. I'm gonna kill him. Oh yeah! You know he, he kicked her, she come back sitting there with a knife, I'm gonna kill Mussy. That was funny. I couldn't believe it, man, when Sam and Fern ran right up to him and he started running and screaming. I remember when Rufus bit me I was shitting myself. Did you see the, is it true? Did you see the bite Oh yeah. I've gotta show you that picture, it's that big, across the leg all blood dripping down off it. Rufus just went looked like a vampire attacked her. Dempsey had tried to take on two dogs that he knocked out his tooth. Knocked out his big canine tooth. He's only got one now. You know the big Oh yeah. he's only got one now. He tried to take two dogs on. Just, the dog just went knocked its collar and the tooth dropped out. How? cos he's got brown teeth as well. I'm not brushing Dempsey's teeth he'll bite my hand off! This is the vet to me he goes your dog's got brown teeth you got to brush it brush the teeth banged his tooth with the collar, he had a metal collar Oh Dempsey's tooth there's all blood coming out of his mouth I said see, serves you right. sympathetic cos he was kicking the shit out of him. Stupid dog! And he tried to attack a pit bull. Pit bull. Round the shops. He had a long-life lead on and I tried to grab the long-life lead it burnt all my hand and he tried to attack the pit bull. Luckily the man had the pit bull on a lead. Kicked the shit out him. I kicked him home I swear. I kicked him and the long-life lead just come I kicked him again. Bastard. That's what they do in that film. The dog bends over. No. Shelley blows smoke in her dog's face. Yeah. She gets a smoke cos her, her brother smokes stuff and sometimes he gives it to her and she blows it in her dog's face. And then she tried to put it in the washing machine for a joke and the dog was gonna get in. The dog's so stupid. That's what Robert does to Kelly Shelley's dog does that anyway. right up on the roof . That's what Roy done, you know why, he come into my house and I goes you better not come in my door he'll attack you. And he goes, no I won't. I let him use the toilet. I goes, you better get out now and I tried to hold Dempsey back and he goes, he goes, that dog won't bite me, dogs love me. Dempsey run up bit his leg open. He went and all his leg was bleeding. I goes you better get a tetanus cos God knows what Dempsey's got. There was a knuckle-duster with a knife, with a knife! That's like some boys done in my school and they got caught and then they weren't allowed to go to the disco. And they had big rocket things and they were throwing them. One of them just missed the teacher's head. Yeah? We went along not allowed to have a drink and all that. And they brought them flick-knife combs. You know when you flick them out and the teachers took them off of them. Cos they said, one boy, a boy, a police officer the other times thought he saw a boy with a knife and he shot him. So they took it off of him. They thought they were all smart knuckle-duster I think. This man had the hand like, in Freddy if you could punch him you'd go do you reckon he was there That cat won't come in, she never comes in the stupid bitch! She just sits there at me. When your dogs were chasing her. Is it? Yeah, you know that put it where and the money just keeps dropping out Teachers, teachers, Gonna get her! all the teachers got drunk on the first night in France. They come in singing out about twelve o'clock. And they took all the shandy out of the machine. Yeah. They told the people in France. I don't Yeah. know why, just shandy. So then they would take the shandy out of the machine cos we were listening, cos everyone kept drinking all the shandy. Cans of drink were naff expensive over there out of the machine! Those stingy cunts. I don't even bother to speak French. I couldn't speak French if I tried. No one could speak French on that French trip not even the teachers. That's so stupid, innit? Is it? Yeah, there was one French teacher who wanted to come, they wouldn't let her come. They had a Spanish man there and another teacher, none of them spoke French. Nobody spoke, Mr spoke a little bit of French but he spoke Spanish fluently. I mean I knew just as much as him. Bonjour, Au revoir! Yeah, but hold on a minute, hold on a minute, how do you I don't know, know, the man who owned the hotel we were staying in knew English. We didn't get food anyway we just eat French bread all week! They made some shitty food! Their cheese stunk like You know how sweaty socks stink? Real bad sweaty socks. The cheese stunk like that. How can you eat food that stinks? And they had all this on top of it and everything, so everyone just eat bread. Just bread! That's all we got, bread and water. No they eat We got bread, no we got bread and then the only time we got chips was in the middle of the week. You should've seen people yamming down their chips. I've never seen people eat chips, cos you know how you get sick of chips sometimes, we's shovelling down the chips down and coke, proper coke they were drinking. Isle of Wight Isle of Wight, ferry, yeah, and we, we all buy, we all buy chips yeah, and the next minute, you know, we're all walking into the arcade all these girls just come up to us and start taking chips. what you doing? And they go, can we have a chip please? Cos they, they say that they always chips. and in the middle of the night they took me out my bed and left me I had to try and find my way back to the camp. Yeah! It was Rodney and Delroy. They took me out, took me out of the bed and just dropped me! And in the morning, yeah, you have to wake up earlier they'd bring the hosepipe and they'd wake you up with cold water and you'd have to have a cold shower and everything And sometimes they, they put, they'd used I got, I got done the worse and, like, I just woke up cos I felt cold. And I woke up and I found myself that I was the only one. I'd have been shitting myself! Shit to lick! I was scared! We, we had to walk back and then and then before and then when we got out there, try and find our way back. But if you get captured by any of the class you get you have to back away, man. You lot waste out all my tape, that's good. but we're having votes to see if we should let girls in but we shouldn't. There's only, it's true, it's true! Where, where,wh Boys' Club? Boys' Club, yeah. I goes to Mr look, there's only one girl that goes there, yeah, with her mum and that's Nadine, yeah? And she's that only Nadine alone. So I goes Mr why don't you just let girls into the club as well? And he goes, oh yeah, we'll have to have for that. But I know see enough boys are gonna say let girls in, of course, but and he's a fool! When we went camping, the girls aren't so depressing. The girls and the boys all camping together. Some girl's going out with a boy, he zipped her tent up over them and she was so shocked she pulled her trousers down by accident. She had nothing on underneath. Oi! I'm coming! I've gotta go anyway, I'll see you later. Come on then, hit me with it, Mum. How does it go? How does it go? Come on Mum! Come on! No, come on! Beep you baby! No! I wouldn't say that! Yes you would. She would. Will you take that Wo! I nearly had that on tape! Wo! That would've been good. Having Kicking the cat. Poor kitten, Mum. Don't pretend you don't smoke cos you do. Don't try it! Give us a cigarette, girl! Why are you wrapping wires round your neck? Because I'm sorting them out Josephine! Oh yeah! Come on, Jane. Advertise your business on, on, you know, on tape. Where are the tapes going back to? Norway. I don't have Norway?gotta go that far. We can't install Jo, if you don't put that microwave, I mean The microwave! You don't put oh shit! Jane, we don't have a microwave! Oh! If you don't put that mike away I'll give you such a big slap Microwave, microwave, Jane. No, I said the mike. Josephine, excuse me, it's twenty past Look! eleven, it's bedtime. See what I mean! See what I have to put up with! Eleven-twenty and I gotta go to bed! I'm fourteen! Well, you're lucky! Wish I was lucky. My, my boys were in bed at half-nine at fourteen. Yeah, I believe you Well, actually ten o'clock. Exactly! Ten o'clock? Yeah and I bet they were all asleep weren't they, Jane, by quarter-past. No they weren't. Yeah, they had to be, they had to be. Jo! Bring them down here! Er? Bring them down here. I don't want to. What a, what a waste of breath! Look. Go on Jane! You know what you wanna say! You don't wanna say what a Is that all we've got left of the electric cable? It'll make a Have you put any alarms in yet? Two. My Mum works for Jane in there, in the alarm business and Jane paid me five pounds. Good work! And when I worked for her boss he only paid me a fiver! Yeah but that was er And I Queensbank and he wouldn't even give me more than a fiver! No, no, To do all the wire. Six look I'm learning this stuff. Why don't they just throw them away! I thought they couldn't join them. I suppose you could if you put them through a junction box or something. God, do you realise we've got enough equipment here for us to Jane, do you realise you're totally boring! to install our own. We didn't ask you to tape I'm not taping your conversation. Where's a pen? Cos he's done the installation date wrong. Oh, he's done the installation date wrong! Oh God! Can't have that! Actually, actually the installation date is oh blimey, Pats, you're going right down the drain, ain't you? No husband, no pen! There's never any pens in this house! I've got loads upstairs So if my pens go missing I'll know where they are. Don't say we're poor on tape! Go to Norway and listen to it, oh hey up, this family's poor! I don't think they say that No they don't, but it was the only accent I could think of at the time. Yeah, that's true. We know you're not very intelligent, but now they know as well. I can do a Swedish impression. Ya, Swedish. Swedish. Look, I wish they would put the lids don't they know how much these screws crossed! Jesus! Where, don't you know how much these screws crossed! What is it my Mum ever said, I can't, can't, what was it Mum? I can't affeed to ford you. I think my Mum, say I can't affeed to ford you. And she was supposed to say I can't afford Yeah, like me in kitchen Kiev! to feed you. Jane gives it I'll shoot you with my machete. I say I'll just unplug the wall. What are you looking at? Right, erm I told them just throw these out! What are they? These are the normal They're little bits of plastic. Yeah, but break and then you're How are we gonna break? I don't know! They might have kids like my brother or sister. sets off alarm off two o'clock in the morning! Has got an alarm? Yeah. Yeah. They've got cat filters on because Did you put them in? We'll have to take these take these out. Yeah, well my business. Jane's Not me. Now Jo,wh wh Saying it ain't my business? No, when I said my business I meant as in the firm, I don't mean as in myself. My firm, that's my Mum that is. They had a problem about chickens in that programme tonight. Question Time. Question Time It's a bit intellectual Mum,Question Time. Right, are you gonna let me light this cigarette or am I gonna just stand here all holding it? Thank you. It's better for your health! Mm mm. Last longer! And you can say hey, my name's Louise. My husband wasn't nice to me and look how I turned out! Well where's the staple gun? Well you can just look at him and do his voices, look! Well, I, you know I totally dis I think Chinese is much better than like Indian, you know, because, you know, they just can't get the noodles just cooked right Josephine! Shut up! just like, you know, and it's bloody downright disgusting! I, I mean, you know, Shut up, Jo! I mean, you know, whenever have you ever known someone to get constipated from Chinese, you know, but it always happens at the Indian, always, always! I mean it's just disgusting! Staple gun It's a blue box. Condoms. What was that Jane, I didn't quite pick that up. Did you say? Notice how it's all gone quiet now cos Jane can't take the pressure. See you can't even have a civilized con It ain't nothing to do with my school! Good! I don't like the teachers up there anyway. I only send you there cos it's cheap. Don't have to buy uniform or nothing. Better just explain to that tape recorder that weren't your mother speaking. That was my Mum's best friend it weren't my Mum. Some stupid woman from upstairs. She just comes in, she's like Dorien out of Birds of a Feather, she just invites herself in, you know. Yeah, but she hasn't got as many men in her life. Yeah, in fact, she's only got Steve! Loo loo look! Well, you know, you know I just, you know Oh, let's be friends! It's a bit to old curry-face. Getting all excited! Who'd you mean? Edwina Curry? Now look,is a real bargain. We were gonna buy one plug for one No, we weren't. Cos I said Yeah, I know they're plugs! that's right, you did but we didn't, did we Why? We got er, erm, order today, Jo. Yeah. On the phone from off the leaflets. Was it my street? No. No. Oh damn! He said yeah! Yeah! Yeah! That's us! That's us! I was looking for the twenty-five pounds. I said it weren't, it weren't our patch. Yes it was! Yes it was! Yes it was! I said it, it wasn't So haven't we got a phone call yet? Not from Well anyway it doesn't matter cos you won't get twenty-five pounds anyway cos you said I could have it. until we got the first order. And he did. And he did. And it turned out to be quite a big'un. A very big'un Ooh! Well he can give me twenty-five pound anyway! What was that? What was it? Ooh look! Erwina Curry! Erwina Curry! Oh darling! Shall we do a crossword? No! Read the funny's. Let's do it together. No. That stupid kitten! She can't leave the box alone! Oh, stop it! Oh yeah. You lot are stinking this flat out. I know. It's Jane. Stop doing that with her bottom. Very nice! Jane What dear? Don't Mum. Jane! Jane! I caught the very end of it, in the last bit where she cries. Mm. I like that bit cos she don't get him. We were talking about that today, because you know the bit where, this is Ghost by the way, you know the bit where the man jumps inside Whoopie Goldberg? Yeah, that's so funny. No, but wait, listen! It was still her wasn't it? It was her body? Yes. Right. So when he jumps into her, what's the difference? No, they, they only done that because it would've been hard for us I think, in the To visualize cinema, to visualize that she was dancing with him rather than Whoopie Goldberg. No, no, but I know that, but I'm saying that that's what I meant, that's what I meant. So really she wasn't dancing, she was dancing with Patrick Swayze's spirit but she Yes. was, so when she started kissing She was kissing Whoopie, Whoopie Gold she didn't kiss him! She does kiss him at the end. Did she? Yes. She does kiss cos we were talking about this in science. She kissed him She kisses While they're dancing? and everyone's saying to me, no you know, she's kissing Pat Swayze it's something that happened. I said no that No! Patrick Swayze's dead!. It's cos he Cos everyone was crying at that bit in the in the cinema, weren't they? It's not sad because you can't, you can't visualize it. It's like coming across as something funny and very serious. Yeah, a bit of the film and that's why And I was, I was laughing and it, everyone was going because it was Patrick Swayze but I was still seeing Whoopie Goldberg! So I was laughing, I just thought, this is stupid! It is stupid. I mean would you kiss Whoopie Goldberg? No, she's not at all What's name does. Who? Sam, out of Cheers. Yeah. What the one behind the bar she goes out with him? Yeah Mind you she's so funny. I like her in Jumping Jack Flash. I might be getting Sister Act on Saturday. Yeah? It includes exclusive Swayze/Goldberg interview. Ooh! Mind you, I've seen it at the agency No he don't. He does, he said I just want you all out there to know that I do love Patsy. Mum! He doesn't love you. He doesn't even know you. He does! Excuse me, he does! I don't know why she gets played, she got to play the leading role? She was No she was good! No, she was totally useless. They should've had someone completely better. She cried all the time, didn't she? Yeah, she was such a soppy little cow! And when Whoopie Goldberg first come to her she didn't even believe her! you would've believe her, wouldn't you? I would've believed her! A name? I would've said yeah, on your bike Three letters? And I mean, when, when that man was in her house don't you think she would've changed the locks or something? Stupid woman! Three letters? A name? D, B. D, B, something? D, something, B. A name? Well I thought it was No Deb? Could be deb Dib dub Okay I've gotta go to bed. Put your kitchen light on. Ni-night! Ni-night! Goodnight! Sure you ain't got no more last comments? As soon as I turn off you gonna start swearing, ain't you? Anyone here support Arsenal? No. What's the difference between a tea bag and Arsenal? Dunno. A tea bag stays in the cup longer. Who told you that? Some little girl. I've got it on this tape about fifteen times cos everybody supports Arsenal, I said stays in the cup longer. I don't support Arsenal. Miss, I ain't got a diary I've gotta buy a new one. I've lost it. Shelley! Look I got all these weeks, I had all these weeks, all these weeks left. Have you got any money with you today then? No, I've got a diary at home the one, cos I lost one, I bought another one and then I found the one I supposedly lost so I'll use that one. I'll get it off my shelf. Moi, moi, moi I ain't gotta do it till Monday. Neither have I. Is this for today's? Yeah, but I didn't write Why have we got? This is all holiday dates here though, aren't they? no this is this week's that I, I missed out on them. Right. Well that, I say that was holiday so And that's today's but That's nasty. Now when is this from? Twenty-second of the third Tuesday then, when are we starting right, that was the second of the fourth. That needs signing. You need to sign Janice, what is this? Disgusting, innit? That's filthy They were reading it down the tape and I had to tape it all. Dear Doctor Allen, I was with my dog and you read one yet? Yeah. That's, that was disgusting! Right, we'll see yours on Monday. Yeah. They were disgusting! She goes Dear Doctor Allen, My Mum and Dad went out the other day and I was bored so I started rubbing my dog and my dog got turned on and so did I. In fact I got turned on so much I come. No you were writing them! You've got a disgusting mind! Take That poster, Take That And he's a Kylie Minogue fan. Urgh! Snot rag! Yeah, what about it? It's your snot! Just cos you use your and then I flick them at people. Urgh! Who watched Ruby Wax last night? Did you watch Ruby Wax? She's wicked! Did you watch Ruby Wax? Isn't thingy on there any more? No. Did you see Ruby Wax? She she pushed, there was like ten men in a, like, six men in a row. She pushed the first one and they all started to fall face down. Do you know what I mean? And she started running. She ran to the end of the queue and when the man fell flat, face down, he fell on top of her and she was going like that to the camera. I like that bit with Joanna Lumley and they were Yeah, did, they, did, Joanna Lumley was supposed to, like, her husband was supposed to have left her and she was going mad, drinking and everything, right. She was drinking vinegar! Squeezing it down her throat and everything. All these men started dancing with her and she couldn't believe it and she started dancing with them, right. And then sh like, you know how sometimes in the, an old dance routine they put a coat on the woman and everything, she's dancing and they bring this coat towards her and she goes like that and it's a straight jacket. Cos she's gone mad and they put it on her, right, and they, they're holding her and they're tapping out of the stage sidewards and she's sort of like going like this, she, she, thinks all these nice men'll love me and then like at the end of the show you see them, they're tapping her out of the studio and putting her into a van and she's still wearing a straight jacket and smiling at you. Cos Jennifer Saunders not in it any more, is she? No. But she was cooking and she was going you take, she goes, she goes, some people like it a little bit on the side, you know, with their food, some people on the side. My husband wanted a little bit on the side She goes, she goes yeah, she goes let's have some French dressing. She goes everybody likes French dressing You should've watched it, it was really good. She goes jam tart Tarts! She's going really cheap tarts! And she gets a cabbage and she's beating it up, was she? She could never could she? Who ain't on there any more? Jennifer Saunders. Oh it was really good it was so funny. She was beating up the I watch cabbage with a No, it ain't on that much. Ruby Wax is on that's all, the Full Wax. I love the beginning when she says, will you get out my way, please? And she knocks the runner over. I've got that stupid song on, what's it, what's it called? Young at heart When it first come out, when it first come out I didn't mind it, but now I don't like it. Have you seen the video? They kiss. You know when the two men yeah they go, he goes like that at the end and then this week they went there's no business like show business at the end. No, you know when it, the video, there's two men on the fair ride, have you seen it? Yeah. And they're kissing each other Are they? They're not kissing each other, he goes like that, he put his arm round the other man and he kisses him like that. Are you sure it ain't a girl? No, it's two men, innit? It is two men. And he puts, he puts his arm round him and he goes like, he's got his arm round him and squeezing him like that. He don't kiss him. Kissed him on the cheek. It was just bad enough having their arm round each other. It wasn't an actual Yeah, I know yeah. Two men with their arm around each other. Don't like that. I, I bought that when it come out about two years ago. bought it. Cos it's only verses and then they go young at heart and then they go What, Bluebells? I used to, gone off of it. I like the video. Who watches them Little House on the Prairies? I do. Good, isn't it? It was good this week. I know, it was about the Did you see it? She, yeah, she ran away with him. Yeah I know. Did you see it when he took his clothes off and he that Nellie's such a bitch, ain't she? Who Nellie? The one who got married, yeah. Yeah, I know. When, you know when she got the gun and she was trying to kill him and he was saying ah! Six sides! I only done one and a half! Did you watch Grange Hill. I'm watching Grange Hill the old series. It's go Mark in it. Is it? And he's so, he's so beginning? It's on at about half four to five. About half-ten I think. Half-ten at night? Morning. Grange Hill the first ever On Sundays about half-ten, no quarter-to-eleven. In the morning? Yeah, cos the Rug Rats are on first. I love watching that Oh Janet Jackson's film looked really nice, didn't it? Yeah. Yeah, I know, but her song was good She looked really cute. I think she's really cute. She looks like her brother. But better. The bit at the end, the bit at the end when she goes I think her song is really nice and there was another one on there, you know I didn't watch it, only saw Janet Jackson Did you watch it? What went on Top of the Pops? Yeah. Mm. Live from whatever. They weren't in the studio Oh them I watched, I only watched Janet Jackson. Yeah. Did you watch that Australian thing? The Australian family at half-nine. That was really good. Did you watch it? Half-nine, it, it was erm, they show you a family that, it weren't, it's not no, it's not, not the set up thing, the thing where they've gone into the house with cameras and the people like, I know. the documentary, yeah about Australian, three Australian families are in a street. Yeah, but that's stupid because cos they're not gonna act They are! She goes, she goes, she goes I don't even care if the kids don't like him I love She goes though, he's not having a party so, he's invited thirty-five kids and, and they're all bringing their own friends, there's not gonna be enough room, he goes forget it then, I won't have the party. She goes no, it's his sixteenth birthday and you'll have a fucking party, Wayne. It was wicked! She goes I knew Laurie for three weeks and then after that he moved in with me, innit, like? And she goes I knew I wanted to spend the rest of my life with him. I knew I wanted to spend the rest of my life with him. It was really good. She goes oh, erm, yeah, just because we've gotta house like this hasn't got such a glamorous house While we're getting married at least we can invite the kids to the wedding she goes cos I'm upset too she goes let me comb your hair oi Mum! That hurts! Yes, she's dragging the comb. It's only fifteen. Urgh! Urgh! Urgh! Urgh! What? That was funny though. It's on next week, you'll have to watch it. I'm watching it again, you know, it was a joke. What's it called? It's called family. It's something, it's something, it's something like that An Au An Australian family. The Aussies! It's really good. It's on half-nine or ten on one. It was really good. We watched a film on erm, Wednesday. It was on ten-past five till seven, and it's always, like, about I saw some little girl Mm? Er? and she goes Desmond thinks that who's is that? Desmond thinks that he's the dad of thing cos he was so drunk that he slept with her but his mum Is he? When he comes back? In the holiday. Is it just a polo neck sort of type? Oh it's got a pocket. Five pound Dad got the first cheque through the post today . No, a grand. He's meant to get eleven grand so he's sorting out that. Is it?. Yeah, they're, they're green ones and it's got purple down the, you know they show purple inside of it Inside the tracksuit? Yeah, but it's purple Oh, I think I know what you mean. Have you got a pair? Yeah. Do you wear them? A bit. I don't bother doing P E. Sometimes no I don't bring a kit in I just put a tracksuit on and if I do it I do it. If I don't I don't. But I'm not gonna do it today cos I wanna tape. I can't believe it! I can't believe it! I can't believe it! Oh my god! It's been a year today, you know, a year today with Sally. You've been going out with your I can't believe it! Explain it to me? She's been going out with her boyfriend for a year today and they get on so well! Well done! And you know what? I reckon they're made for each other. I really do! I can't believe it! That's really well done! I really agree with you. I'm so happy for you! Honestly, I'm really happy for you! No, cos he said it to me yesterday, he goes No, I haven't seen him yet. Seen who? Who's that? Oi!you slag! Come on then, let's go down. Oh, you've gotta go . Right, and I'll see you at break-time, meet me in the picture, pictures. Keep talking. All right then yeah, like I was saying I got into a massive argument with him last night I had an argument with Osman, right Yeah. and I told him to fuck off and I told him he was a pain and all the rest of it and so Oh right. I am, I said to him don't ever fucking talk to me again! Just piss off! I don't wanna know you any more.! Yeah. And then he got pissed off because erm the cigarette business, right. What cigarette business? Cos he thought I'd, I'd smoke it, I was smoking and he didn't like it and then erm he told me I don't wanna talk to you any more, blah, blah, blah, all that rubbish. Yeah. And then I said, right don't ever talk to me again, right. So horrible with me so I think I'll just apologise . Hi, Miss! Miss, did you mark my work? Miss? Miss, didn't you mark it? Miss, you didn't mark Miss! Miss! Miss, you didn't mark it. No, but I've got it here. All right. Guess what? You know I always borrow everyone's pen, I went and bought myself a new one just like Josie's one. Wait a minute! Wait. I told her she could have my one cos it only had that much ink in it. Twenty-eight pence. Oh! That Josie's! Don't frighten me! You know that really hurts my ears when you do that. What? Bang on the table. It hurts mine! You're very sensitive, aren't you? Plus I've got the microphone right next to me. What's that got to do with it! When they're close to the microphone you stupid idiot! Well if you're all the way over there and I'm talking to you I can hear my voice more. Yeah, but I can hear my voice louder than yours. Oh, I can hear that, you know, that hurts! Ah! And don't sing because that's even worse. I've got a No. Saying it'd been a year when it's been ten! Then she'll get a little card. When it's been twenty she can get a present. James, come on, talk! That was effective! Oh, I've got my music folder! Yeah. Oh no, please, don't tell them Oh, shut up! She always gets me in trouble! She always says I can't be bothered to play the piano, I can't play that and I have to make some shitty little tune up No! I make it up as well No you don't! And I make up this Shut up! rubbishy little tune, right, that don't make sense and she plays it and it's all me. Jo! Don't even bother joining in. Yes, I do bother! No! Yes! It is me. I always make up No, it's not yes, it is. No, it isn't and she lost my most expensive pen down the back of the piano. Cos I don't care! Who do you work with in music? That little fart over there! Who's a fart? You're shit! You Sara! language, please. Oh shut up! You shut your mouth! Ah! You don't argue with Sara. What are we meant to do? Oh, where's my one? Up your bum! Get me one Da, da, da! Bloody, bastard, buggery, bum, balls! Can I have a piece of paper, please. In fact you can have two. How about that then, eh? Don't touch! Shut up! No! He wants another piece! Bloody greedy! That's what he is! Oh, I see, two for me, two for you, two for for you! She got one! She got one! I got two! Ah! Fucking lying bitch! What! Sara! I don't know, you tell me. And Sara! What? You I will! Look what she done? When had her name up for detention she goes rub it off! He goes no. She goes rub it off. She goes if you won't, I will! You're too feisty and she didn't in the end, didn't she? Where's my bag? Up your bum! It's on the mat. I know she that's a waste of paper! Don't matter. That is a certain waste of paper! You writ a title, you didn't like it so you're re-doing it. No, but there's things, I will not waste that paper, I'll do You lot always write your name in the wrong place. You're supposed to write your name in the margin. Are you? You are! You are! You're not! I don't. Oh, so you don't so told you the first year! No! Name, date, title. What's the date? It's all right, I know. Twenty-third, you do-do! I know! You little short arse! Little short arse! What questions do we have to answer? them sheets! No, but, oh there's certain ones we're not supposed to answer. Janice! Do we do question one? Oh, so we do all the rest and we write them. Oh dear! I'm so bored! I wish someone would come and blow up the school for us. Wouldn't it be good? What? You'd kill me if I blew up the school? Oh god! That would be so funny if Sara died! Oh, how you spell that? Henry's, meow, Henry's, meow, na, na, Henry's cat, meow. Henry's, meow, Henry's meow, Henry's, Henry's cat, meow! Used to like that. Who want's a game of golf? Where's my pencil case? Henry's, meow, Henry's Do you watch that? See it Monday? What do you watch? No, I watch, I watch the Addams family. Where's the pencil case? I don't know, have you got it? Put it out? I think so. pencil case. Stupid little bitch! Put it back! I ain't got it! You have! Janice, have you got it, cos I saw you taking something? Sara, get up! Right, get up! Shake about a bit. Janice has got it. Janice, stand up! Give me it, you little cow! I told you Janice had got it. making me out to be a lying bitch. You trust me, didn't you? People in Bangladesh live longer than people in Brazil! Where's Bangladesh? Bangladesh? No, that's no right. Ain't it right? What's the next one? E Japan's the healthiest country to live in. How can it be true? When their health only seven? Shelley! Seven people It's not true. Oh, I could become American,to America Is that true, Sara? Brazil is a eventually in Mexico I could become a Mexican, way up to a Mexico, how do we get to a Mexico, jump to a Mexico! How do we get to a Mexico, how do we get to a Mexico. What you're doing, you're studying these profiles and it says draw graph three? Three indicates so it's asking you that you choose. You could well you could choose a graph to indicate G. I won't do it! Yeah? Yeah. You could do a graph with child mortality, child health. You could do a graph to show You don't have to do so six countries, three indicators. So all six of these countries, right? What do you mean These are indicators, these boxes. So only do three of them? You just pick three of them. It shows you whether they're excellent or bad, poor or poorly. So what shall I do the on? It's up to you to pick three indicators. You could Say I do that on Yeah. Yeah. How would I know what to mark them? Well, G M T for China, two hundred and eighty dollars. The E C O P at a hundred and forty dollars. Benegal Three hundred Three hundred and forty, so on. So you'd do, I mean I would Yeah, but Can't you see, me Well, along the bottom, chapter six, twenty-three, there's this guide how to do G M P and then just do it as a straight bar graph. Okay. Yeah? So who's the best out of the three? What about the whole school or just our year? Just this class. This class? Well, there's no one in this class Our year, our year. Best looking boy starting from the top. No, Right, all the schools All the schools everywhere. That's too much, just our year from the bottom. Like the worst to the best. Three people, no five! Right, the worst person, the ugliest person in our year. Yeah, five. Ugliest person in our year. Come on you two, think! Come on then, who do you think? A pole. Who's that? Abdullah. Abdullah Right Abdullah's number, Abdullah's but the best looking No, I won't! All right, all right , the best looking white boy Right, the best looking white boy has gotta be . Who's the best looking black boy? We haven't said yet. best looking black boy. I reckon it's Damian. Damian, I, I'll agree with that. Erm what about the white boy. What what is the relationship with her? Who do you think's the best looking boy? Alan! Why aren't you doing know work Shelley? We're not getting no where do you know that? Just shut up. No, why aren't you doing nothing? I am though! You're not! You're not I'll fucking murder you! I'll murder you! Yeah that was it. All right. Miss, what are we gonna write here? You know when it says what relationship Yeah. Yeah, what have we gotta write? Well look at it! What can you say? It's nice innit? graph about the So vain! relationship between and life expectancy. She nodded. She loves me really How long have you been going out with Alan! That isn't very nice. How long have you been going out with Alan? Shelley! Miss Yeah! How long have you been going out with Alan? Ten years. A year! Was you engaged, Miss? Who? You. No, no, no, we split up. No, no, no. After nine years. Ah! Right okay, good, now You gotta write down the relationship. Sara, just leave me alone I gotta think about it. I ain't got a brain, Shal, I gotta think about it. I wanna go to the library if you can't go. Are you coming? Yeah. Cos he's the first person to hold a conversation What are you doing? Colouring it? Colouring what? My bar graph. Nobody told me about a bar graph. It's time to pack up. Miss, have you marked my work yet? She never listens to me. Miss!ooh er, ooh er, oops! What? Yeah. I'm going to the library though. Miss! Miss have you marked Oh dear! I wonder if she's marked my thing since Monday? My assignment. I'd go home, Sara, if you're not feeling well. No I wouldn't, you gotta come music with me, I'm not going music on my own. No let her go home, Sara, I really don't mind. I do! You lot ain't been in music, I have. We don't mind, do we Sara? I mind cos I love it. Ooh. Ooh! Ooh! Miss, have you marked it yet? I'm just in the middle of reading. It's all right actually. You've definitely got the right idea. Hear that? My work You all right? I got Most your work's good Most of your work's good then. True, true, true. You can never, you can never ask I just offered to erm in Tech class can you? No, I hate Tech class. I hate Music too. In fact I hate most of my lessons. I, I only really like Humanities and English. set me free, all right I'm reading The Shining. I like Stephen King. I really enjoyed that. Stephen King I liked him. Yeah, I like him too. Have you read It, Miss? No, but I've read erm that one about that thing that comes up out the ground it was so creepy, it was really creepy. It does that as well, he comes up out Oh, well maybe it's It but I've read something It's a clown! Is it a clown? Yeah, it's a clown. Oh, that was just scary. And Misery You couldn't watch that. Have you seen the film of it yet? Misery, that's brilliant. That was good. The film was good when she hammers his foot urgh! She, she, she chopped his foot off him and blow torches afterwards. His leg while His, his foot hammered it down so he can't walk, it was disgusting. Miss! Miss! Have you seen It of video? No, I didn't know it was on video. It's about three hours long. It's on two tapes. It's a bit boring though. Boring. Right, can I have these sets of sheets back, please and can you pack away now! The next two Mondays we're not gonna have humanities because we're off! I expect you to work on the assignments you owe me at home! Here you are, Jane! What was that Stephen? Nothing. Good. Nothing joking. Good. Informer Good. What did he say? He never knew I was an informer. Miss! Miss. you've cracked it again now. Don't Eh? it breaks It breaks? Yeah. Well, as far as I'm concerned Nick's a cunt. As simple as that. he he's he, he's a he's a user and he can't take it when he's dumped and he can't take being told the truth, like he's an idiot. And he likes to talk about you. My mate's Gary, my mate Gary's erm friend called Nick yeah? Alright, he's going out with a girl called Laura, he's coming onto her sister but he thinks he's in love with Sally. Hang on, is that three girls? Yeah. Oh fuck!tricky It's so stupid! really love Sally. And you know the thing, no wait a minute, the thing that gets me is you know when James fancied me? Right, now it was obvious James fancied me. Now all I wanted was for James to ask me out and I would've when out with him you know. But Nick got in there first. But what pissed me off was, right, He used you to get James. No, no, no, no, nothing like that. What pissed me off is, is he's hanging about with James and that lot now right, but when you talk about James and that lot to him its, oh they're a bunch of chiefs. Is it Don't, no don't say anything because he comes back to me, it comes back onto me. It don't matter whether you say I won't say anything cos it always comes back. But he thinks Cathy and that lot are going to he thinks Cathy's a slag and everything, yet he's still hanging about with all you lot. He's a slag. And I'm just going to put this in the bin. He's gay. I really, no he really pisses me off wanker. and he's just using James and that lot. Cos I never say, I mean I don't, Cos he hasn't got any friends of his own. I don't me I mean I like James and that lot. I think all of that lot are alright. Peter's, but if I think Peter's a bit of a tosser I tell Peter to his face, he's a tosser. Did you see what Peter did round there right? You know Nick being really cool? He had some Hoola Hoops and he crunched them all up and then he went blurgh! spat them all out. He spat them all out and then Peter goes oh Peter! Urgh! On, off the floor? Off the floor. And Nick had chewed it all up? Nick had spat it out like he'd thrown it up or something. Horrible! Urgh! Peter's nasty, man. Oh God you haven't, have you heard about the fifth year toilet yet? No what happened. Someone shitted on the floor. Someone crapped on the floor! By the loo, I had to go in there she must've been holding it in because she didn't wanna wipe her bum with her hand and then you know it just burst out before she could get to the toilet. Well I did go cos I was investigating yeah. And you know it had little blobs, alright, leading up to the big long shit! It was as if they were really desperate and they knickers round their ankles running into the toilet! That must be really embarrassing. Mind you I suppose it's better on the floor than in your knickers I mean I remember when I went, first went to my cheap caravan site where there isn't a toilet and you have to walk to the toilets, and I remember a couple of times when I was little, shitting my pants on the way to the toilets, you know, cos I couldn't hold it in. But when you reach this age you should be able to control it! My first year at Grange Hill, right, you know when I used to wear boxer shorts with no knickers on underneath? Dirty Cath! I was, I, I had diarrhoea this time, yeah, and I was Oh my God! I was busting, Oh, you didn't shit your pants, did you? I was busting and I was there going I said and I couldn't exactly say can I go to the toilet? So I did one and then this, by this time I was desperate. Look, I've got to go to the toilet! Alright then. I went running and I went running and I the relief of sitting down on that toilet and going you know you know when your completely busting and then it's the relief It's like when you piss and it's really bad, it's really bad and then you get to the toilet and it's that's why I like that bit in, have you seen A League of Their Own? Where he comes in and he does that piss and he's and Madonna's standing there looking at him like this and she's just looking at him and she's going, anyone who can keep it up that long and he's just sitting there going er no he's going er and she's going, she's going, and she's coming round like that trying to look at him, I couldn't stop laughing. And the piss was going on for ages. Janice goes, it wasn't good. A League of Their Own. Oh I thought that was quite good! She said it wasn't as good as good as they thought it was gonna be, everyone told me it was brilliant. I said, I don't care what people think I, I think it's brilliant. No, I think it was brilliant. I thought it would've been a bit better but I did enjoy it, I did enjoy it. It was a good film. Yeah, I mean there were bits It's the sort of film you can sit and watch a few times. Well I know I can. You know what I mean i , that's what I mean, it was, it wasn't predictable, do you know what I mean? And it was, I mean, right, things like House Party and all that lot white man Malcolm X, they're all black films. If the truth be known. And that's why I like Candyman. Shelley said that was crap. Grace thought it was brilliant. Why? Because the man's a black man. The thriller man in it is a black man. It's not that they're being racist It was just a shitty film. I mean, I, I agree with them there's hardly any leading roles for black people but I mean the problem is that Eddie Murphy films are good though And Whoopie Goldberg and they're brilliant actor She, she's done some brilliant anti-racist films yeah they. But the thing is even people that, even though people are saying, well you've gotta get more black people into it, but if You know, there's, there's a law in America. But that's, but that's what I mean, they're making, they're saying let's make, when the white people make films black and white people watch them, they're not specifically made for white people, not specifically made for black people, it just happens to be white actors. But when they make a black film, they make a black film for black people to sit and watch. I've got it all on this tape Malcolm X, Kerry's saying Malcolm X is brilliant, he was a black man, he was a nigger and Truno was going shut up Truno's black too and she was going shut up! Malcolm X, stupid black nigger, do you know what I mean. But because they're black it don't make no difference, do you know what I mean. Cos if we say it We say it But if I was to say it, it's different. Like, Kerry goes to me, cos I've got a black kitten he goes, what are you gonna call it? I goes dunno. Goes call it Malcolm X. I goes shut up! He goes, call it, call it Ma call it Martin X and then he says call it Nigger. I think Nigger's a good name but, you know what I mean like, come here Nigger! But it's, it's racist. If I'd a, if I were walking down the street going Nigger!sorry! Last year, right, I was on holiday in the South of France and I, I'd made friends with these two German people and I'm a bit wary of German people anyway, cos of what's happened and everything. Mm. And, no, they hadn't done anything racist up until then and I goes casually, do you like Bob Marley? No, he's a black nigger. What! Do you know what you're saying you are, you are some stupid He's a legend, man. fool. You know? I'm going and, and I said, look, he's a decent bloke. He goes,yes, he's a nice man, but black. I went well observed! you know I would never have known Bob Marley was brilliant. But the thing is, you know all that erm early stuff that Bob Marley did, they're bringing it out, it's not that good. Yeah, they shouldn't, they shouldn't cos his music was made for that time. That was, the music was made for his, that time, you know what I mean, it's not for this time. I know, but I mean But some of the stuff is brilliant. But I hate people I , I hate people that are, I hate people that are biased, like the new Madonna book. That book's disgusting! It's a disgusting book, she shouldn't have made it. Have you seen it yet? I wanna see it. Do you know, I hate people that do that. They're saying it's disgusting but they wanna see it. Body of Evidence. Body of Evidence is disgusting film. I wanna watch it. You know what I mean. I'll tell you what's a good film, and I don't care what anyone says, but I really love Robin Hood, Prince of Thieves. Yes, that was brilliant! I do like that film but you've Whose seen, seen it so many times who's seen, who's seen Basic Instinct? I haven't. My mum's seen it. That's a really dirty film, innit? I didn't think It is so crap I don't know what it is. It is a sexist stupid perverted film, I watched it round Nick's house. Oh god. Oh well that explains it No, no listen to this, listen to this, right. There's no nudity of men right, it's all nudity of women, like when Sharon Stone sits there with her legs her open and she ain't go no knickers on. It's all nudity of women. There ain't one decent man in it, only Michael Douglas. He's not exactly He was nicer when he was young but kind of now, he's kind of old, do you know what I mean. Exactly. There's no decent men in it and there's no nudity of men it, even when he's in it all you got to see of him was waist-high, you got to see a clips of his bum. It was such a se it was, it's, the only bit that was worth be seeing was the beginning bit when she's fucking a man she sticks an axe through him. A pick, an ice pick through him. How's your eye, Aiden? Did Nick say when he was Don't bother watching . In fact I'd wait four days, I'd wait four years to watch it on T V it's so crap. Janice thinks it's brilliant. Yeah, but she's sort of really naive and really Gets on my nerves sometimes. I'm not being funny, but she's a white man's woman, don't you think so? Yeah. She, she's all Very dependent. Yeah. Very Ooh Alan, ooh Alan. She, she's everything men want women to be, you know. She's pathetic. Like it really, that film really pisses me off right, when he's beating her up and he rips her knickers off and fucks her up the arse and Nick's going that's how to treat a wo it's disgusting fucking a woman up her arse, and ripping off the woman's knickers and rip putting it up sitting watching it thinking There's that film Nine and a half weeks, I haven't seen that I suppose as well. He ties her up, rubs ice blocks all over her. Lovely The difference is with Body of Evidence is it's Madonna whose in, it's a woman whose in control. It's a woman whose using a man. It's a woman that's taking advantage of men, that's good. That's why I wanna see it. It is Body of Evidence? It's, it's a woman! it's still like, it's still like the opposite of Basic Instinct Yeah, it's the opposite of Basic Instinct. It's like, with Sharon Stone, even at the end she was still dependent on Michael Douglas, like, when he was going she was crying and she couldn't kill him at the end cos she loved him so much and, you know what I mean, so no, Body of Evidence, it'll probably have a rubbish end and she'll probably marry the lawyer or something, but it was still good to see her beat, tying a man up, putting candle wax on him and shit. Oh my god! anyone seen that? Oh, it was brilliant! He's so cute! I think I've fallen in love with Rick Mayall now. Did you like the end when they, she had to leave him? I love, I love Tony Slattery. You know, you know what bit made me laugh? You know the bit when they're out in the garden and he goes, he goes, why are you back? She goes, cos I'm, I'm erm, she goes, erm, cos, no, cos you're not happy. And he goes, well get happy! And he gets the spade and hits her on the head with it and he goes, I never want to talk to you again and he kicks her in the head. I couldn't stop laughing. I thought it was funny bannister he went like this and went Yeah, he went oh! He goes, who put that there? And the bit where he goes He goes urgh, cobwebs and she goes piss off! She goes Mum, come and sit here, she goes, piss off! like that and the mother goes you talking to me? And she goes And the little girl! I liked it when he went smelly smelly smelly dog poo Dog pooh! wipe it on the sides a doo di doo di doo I loved the way he done that! And you know the bit where erm she's in bed and the hand comes out from behind the pillow and it goes over the back of her head and she goes, she goes, she was so cute she goes, she goes, what a pile of shit!and when, you know when she cleans up all the cornflakes? Yeah. She's sitting there, she's putting it all in and she goes, she goes and she goes and she goes, yeah And when her mum stands there back of her hair trying to Yeah, and she stands, she's going, she's going, on the way I caught cornflakes disease aargh! Not even a I know, he goes, I don't love you, you know. He goes I'm an alien, I'm going into space but on the way I caught cornflakes disease aargh! it's like why do you call him honey? She goes cos that's his name, Daddy You know when that comes on telly again? What? Can you tape if for me? You tape it me and give me the tape and I'll give you a tape in exchange because I wanna keep it. Alright, I'll have to find one. Thanks, Kate. What have you got I'll bring one in on Tuesday, in case, but if it comes on on the weekend I'm gonna tape it. Have you got one of them videos that you can tape tape tapes then? No, no, no. It's a satellite. No, it's on Sky. Is it? It's been on Sky. I like that, I, I think it's really sweet when she's taking those tablets and he's sitting there Yeah, and he's going, oh, he's going, he's going, he's going, snotface! I love the way cos he goes I got something for you and with the ink he goes, oh, alright, and he throws it and and he goes, nice catch! You can tell it's not a dog's food it's like cake mix Yeah. You know another bit that was really good? The bit where, where she goes, are you gonna do it like the pigeons? He goes, no, you're not supposed to do it like that you're supposed to get her on the floor and step on her head! you're not doing it right! I think he's really gorgeous. The one, the one, when he's got, when he's got I've fallen in love yeah you know, you know the way he goes like this with it, he goes Yeah. And the bit where she's, the mum's cleaning it up and she's got the gas That was wicked. And when she, when she goes when she goes, is he in that chair? And he goes she's ke she's beating him up under the chair she goes Yeah cos he's the only time 's wife is out of town. All the people they're going And she goes excuse me and she goes back in. She was really good in that. She was in Star Wars I like the bit when he goes, yeah, when he goes pirates! And he, and she's going, oh!and she goes, what did you do, Fred? And he goes, I didn't do anything And he goes, he goes, she goes, right, you be the captain I'll do everything else, don't touch nothing. He goes, alright then. What, not even that? And he pushes it and runs out. I think it's so funny. I've seen it three times now. The Lost Boys about thirteen Oh God! I'm sick of it now. I'm actually sick of it now I can't watch it any more cos you just know I know Like it's a difference with with thing like Beetlejuice, every time I watch it I notice a few things that are different Yeah. but, with that No, The Lost Boys, you know everything I love Beetlejuice. I love the way he says that! I like, I like I like Flatliners, that's good. Oh yeah, I've seen that loads of times. That's good innit? Few Good Men. I ain't seen that. Forever Young's good erm You know what I found out, right? Hang on, wait a minute, er August, September,January, February, March I've been single for nine months. Oh god, I've been single for about five years five years. No, more than that . Oh, leave her. I've never really been, like, single single cos I'm always sort of like, not actually going out with somebody but I'm always, I've always got someone who sort of fancies me or I'm flirting with. Do you know what I mean, like? Someone like James for, how long did that go on for, for about a month, when he couldn't he stop talking about me all the time it was sort of like, you know, I like this, you know what I mean, he was talking No, I, I Cos that was what So cruel in front of Nick. Basically, yeah, if I want to, I've always got a couple of boys to fall back on. Yeah, just to fl flirt with. But I don't, I don't want it. You want David, don't you? You want David, no, no I don't actually. Everybody thinks I do. Who do you want? But I mean, I wa I was really pleased when Toya come up to me and she goes, James can't stop talking about you in Science. I was thinking mm. He goes, he thinks you're, he thinks you're so funny I can't I do it in music. No, I wanna see, I've never seen you do it, please? I don't flirt! I just, you've seen me flirt! You've seen me, she's seen me flirt all the time. he's not bothered. But I don't care, I just want No, I can't do it now not in front of Cathy and that lot, they'll think me a little slag and I don't particularly want that image. Just go, hello James, how are you? Oh go on, Jo! Is he, is Nick possessive? for me, please? Scream out James, come here a minute and, and you cou you could use it just to carry on the conversation. Where is he then? He's Gone. gone. When he comes I'll call him again. Yeah and then, you know is a cheeky little cunt! Do you know what he done? I cuddled him and he grabbed hold of me bum! This is me I know he is a bit This is me, I goes, I goes I'll let it slip this time cos you haven't seen me for a few weeks. Just before he got a good grip he went, he got a grip and he was just about to squeeze this, I went I sort of went of tiptoes and I goes, I'll let it slide this time. You know when I look vexed, I goes, because I havn't seen you for few weeks, and he walked away, come are you walking back with us? Yeah. Let's walk the front way. Let's look at all the ducks. No we haven't we've got ten minutes, ha, five minutes. I want to knee David in the bollocks at least once today? Huh? I said I want to Da knee David in the bollocks at least once today. You're so horrible! I'm not horrible, it's just something I do to keep me occupied! I'm still taping this by the way. I've been taping us for ages though, we've been talking about comple , I mean I've got conversations about Thelma and Louise on here about fifteen million times and Drop Dead Fred's original I ain't done him yet. That's the first one I've done of Drop Dead Fred. Have you seen that thing Regarding Henry? Well, may maybe No. you should start conversations not about films. I know, but I always talk about telly or Madonna. I can't be bothered. No you're so cruel. You're so cruel, you're just evil. James! Come here a minute. Look at him walking, look at James, come here. James Leave me alone with him. What? James. Yes. Say something nice in my microphone about me. Josie, you're the most beautiful girl I've ever seen in my entire life. Oh, he's so cute! He said, he said I'm the most beautifulest girl in the world! You liar! Come on then, what, say something nice to me about me You should've seen Nick watching. Oh yeah, I forgot! Say something nice about me. I want nice things on here. You know Grace? She lost her microphone, she was shitting herself, she found it again. About an hour Josie you're a slag! I want this laugh on tape. You know Grace? She lost her microphone. She was shitting herself. She found it again. About an hour Have you got one? No, that's just a thing attached to If you lose it, if you lose it right? How much is it going to cost? Hello. Hello! Excuse me, to the people doing this, what's it, this project. I want to know how much this little microphone set costs cos I want one. Please erm, give, give the information to Josie. What's it, what's it turned up to? Not a lot, because I know you lot. Such a bitch! Though that's cos I've got some brains here. Oi! Wait up, Alice! As soon as they see they got the microphone they go Nicholas, Nicholas. Let's just walk a little bit faster, girls! How many tapes have you done? Erm, I'm on the fourth one! Yeah, come, come up with us. one side. One side! I'm on my second side! How many tapes have you done? I've just been taping loads, four. I know I can't be bothered. This is for the, yeah, but you should just tape anything! Have you logged them yet? Are you gonna log them afterwards No, I've been logging them as I've been going. Oi oi oi. Here comes Mohammed in his lovely little Josie, have you got is a thing or is it, is it a Tandy or is it? Unlucky! Did you get one of these? Yeah. Mine's round the back. Mine's, mine's like that. Mine goes the other way. Mine's round the back. Mine's round the back! Quick, run Mohammed's coming! Pervert! Oh, Kate, my dear friend. See I've got this on tape. I love Kate! What's your second name again,? I love Kate and every time I've said something nasty about her, I'm sorry. She's so kind, int she? She's always giving me things. Warren gave me a baby. Warren gave you a baby? No, I'm just joking for the tape. sitting down reading Sorry, I didn't mean to pull back it's just that I want to hear what they're talking about. No, it's alright. Have you got yours on you you should just tape everything, that's what I do. I even tape it when I'm just telling people what I'm doing. What? I, I I, I done Henry's Cat on mine. I went Henry's, meow, Henry's, meow In fact all over it. I've got Henry's Cat and Rosie and Jim. And we sang all those erm Disney songs. Yeah, we sang all the Mary Poppins songs. We sang Supercala and we've got we got and no, and we've got, we've got, and we've got her biggest word on here. Go on, say it again. Antidisenstablishmentarialism. Oh, not your big word. See that's her biggest word she knows that is, apart from fuck. We come to an agreement and that's our biggest word, fuck. I've got everyone's, oi, Mohammed! What's your favourite swear word? Bollocks! I think mine's probably Mine's like, cunt and things like that. this or not? Usually shit and fuck, I think are my vocabulary. Yeah, or oh shit, you cunt! Or shite is also another one Yeah, or, or, or, budging hell cos your mum's in front of you. Yes and you know bedroom say things like cunt cos your mum isn't very Yeah, yeah, yeah like your mum goes, you stupid cow! What do you think you're doing? You go into your bedroom and go calm Josie, one two three four five six seven eight nine ten bitch. Hi! Talk to me! It's not on I swear. Actually I'm lying. It is on. Oh thanks. She's so kind to you. Always give me a She's such a nice person. She's just such a nice person! Oh! Do you want this one back? I'll have it. No you won't you greedy cow! You can have a bit of mine I'm not giving you half! See you should be taping everything, that's what I am. Let's just really bore them! Peter, I think you're the most wonderful boy in the whole entire world. I keep mine on me earphones so I can hear exactly what everyone's saying. Henry's, meow, Henry's, meow You see this? Get the microphone right Is it good? and you get wind on it. So, er, have you any did you have music homework Josie? I can't hear You're not gonna tape anything! I am. no fucking fun. My only thing in life will be in the next hour and forty minutes, fuck, I need two tapes okay? But it's gonna be boring. My conversation will be a lot more interesting, won't they? Our registrations are funny. Yeah, but if he lends it out he might cos his voice cos if his voice ain't in the conversation I've got it all on tape now you stupid cow! Josie, erm, have you erm, oh, there he is. Hello. Have you erm, done did you have music homework? No, I didn't do it. I thought it was for m , Tuesday! No Oh shit! Yeah okay, everyone says it don't hurt, it don't hurt! No, that. Do I really care whether it hurts you, honestly. Anyway, let me tell you about my tights, right. Right. She was looking looking looking looking through her tights No no no no. This morning Hello, Andrew. Say hello. Hello. No, say hello. You're not Andrew! Not to her! Just cos you love her, say hello to my microphone. Fuck you baby. Yes I am taping that. I won , wondered Alright, listen to this if I'm not taping it then. Put the earphones on. You'll have to come closer because I'm not moving. Now tell me I'm not taping you stupid idiot! You're not though. I am taping She is. look, record! You fucking arsewipe Are you allowed to swear Yes, that's the whole point. Give me some of your slang. Ah. I put on the microphone going he goes I'm a Brixton lad Ha ha ha, ha ha ha, ha ha ha. Shut up! Give me my earphones. He's going you're dead bang, bang, bang! That's his new thing that it goes bang like that to you. I don't know why, it just goes bang. And shouting so much If I was you wearing that and he asked you to do that Mr didn't ask me to do it. None of the teachers in the school asked me to do it. It was for er, a Norwegian college. I ha I'm sick of saying Norwegian college to everyone. I would I would hate that walkman. It's a crap walkman. Henry's, meow, Henry's, meow I've got this on there about fifteen times, you know and talking about Thelma and Louise. Thelma and Louise. That was a good bit when he fucked her up the arse. Like when he goes, suck my cock! No. You know the bit when he goes, when he goes, when he goes, you know the bit when he goes Shut up! You know the bit when he goes, I should've just fucked her and She goes, what did you say? He goes, suck my cock. She just goes Yeah, bang. And where she blows up the lorry. And when she does the robbery. jump over the thing. Yeah. And when she does the robbery and she's going, get down on the floor Did you see You, Me and it? You, Me and It? Yeah that was us two. You, Me and It. Not, really, joke. Did you see it? No. Where's your folder? Mine's got the Come on Miss, give me a little song! Give me a little song right here in the microphone. Where is it, Andrew, at home? It's at home. before school on Tuesday. Before school? Excuse me. Before school? I'm never, I mean Excuse me, I was taping her singing then. Do you want me to turn back? It's too late now. Go on! De deny the fact go on, Sir! Ah! Don't strangle me! on Tuesday I went get in till nine o'clock! Sir, come on! Sir! Do a little bit of singing! Sir, Sir, Sir, Sir! Yes, she's staying right here. She's not going anywhere at the moment. Music is a bore! Don't offer me one. I won't. It's alright, I don't want one anyway they make me sick. Sir! Sir! Sir! Lot's Sir! of semolina, lot's of semolina Sir! Sir! I'll come and show you it in registration Tuesday morning. I won't be here early enough to show you before school. I won't be able to wake up in the morning! Yes, you've got orders! You've got orders! All right! Registration. That's right. And I've gotta come in on Monday! What's that, Miss! Shut up and sit down! Now! I've got to stay in on Tuesday, I'm babysitting my sister. I don't care whether you want to play an instrument or not That's your tough, right? Your tough That's your tough, yeah. And my nephew loves me very much Is there anybody who needs anything other than a piano to do their scale for an A minor key i.e. Tuesday's homework. Weren't that supposed to be in on Tuesday? What was the question? If you had just answered my question before you answered with another question. Is there anyone who needs any other instrument other than the piano to perform their homework which was er to create a melody . Didn't do it. anything else other than a piano same one but you're in clarinet pitch in B flat or you in B flat. Well it's going to come out as You've got the notes a b c d e f sharp g sharp a coming down a g sharp f sharp,well it's not the bloody minor scale then is it? I did it with er um I I wrote down on my work what's the, what's the harmonics? Is it f sharp? f g sharp. Just the same Yeah, well I wrote down f sharp but then I realised I'm really, really bored so I just thought seeing as I'm on my own I'd just tell you some slang erm for teenage languages. There's words like chief, wad, dude they all mean you're an idiot, a joker or a means, like, you make a fool of yourself a lot. Your arms, you're dark and you're out of order erm Alright, Kel? missed you. Oh Josie did you want me? Yeah, what, would you like to speak to her? Oh yeah. She's such a liar, that Dawn . Who's a liar? sh she's not. while I go upstairs. Kelly! She ain't in. Mum is in. She ain't! Mum! She must've gone to the shops. Where's Dempsey? What? Where's Dempsey? Dempsey? Up Chris's? Yeah. I think I'll just wait here. there's Sam! Hi Sam! I was taping, Sam. battyman means you're gay. And Lezzypal means you're a lesbian. Okay? Says hi, Grete. Hi, Josie. goodnight to you it'd mean Don't strangle the dog Grete. What? Don't strangle your dog. Don't str It's cos your brains, mind you she ain't nobody to squash so it don't really matter. any message to give him? Yeah, tell him to come down because we've got to have conversations. About what? I'm taping you. You're not taping me, are you? Yeah. You're not? Yeah. Shit! Goodbye, Josie! I'm not filming you, I'm taping you. It doesn't matter I hate my voice on tape. Well you're not gonna hear it. So does mine! And I have to talk on it all the time. Via a Norwegian college. Oh! They picked me. To do what Pardon? To do what? Teenage languages. Oh that's good! When you go don't forget me. Send me a card. I'm not going! They just send it to me, I send it back. Oh! Can you get off please? Pop my microphone. You never know Six other people. Thirty people all over London. That's good! That is really good. I'm glad. Six of them in my school. I'm one of them. Why ain't you talking, I ain't taping. I don't believe you. Oh thanks! ever since you've been a little girl you've been a wind-up merchant. She's know me since I've been a little girl. That's that girl! Goodbye Josie! See you later. Goodbye Josephine Bye! That was Greta, Truan and Kerry and Shelley's Mum. I haven't got anyone to talk to now. Pretty boring. Could go out and talk to Tina. like her. Just talk to her get some conversation so these are my flats. It's called flats Is Tina there? Tina! Thanks Chris. Josie! Er? All right, Craig? All right, Jo? Right? Yeah. Hello little doggy! What are you listening to? Me? What was you listening to? Nothing. Hello little doggy! Hello! Don't torment she'll wanna get out! Look she You're gonna send her mad, Josie. Pack it up. What are you doing that for? Don't tell me you Look at it! It's raining. Go swimming. Don't like swimming. You don't need to pay for it! Ha ha ha! No, most people just have a bath. Yeah true, drown yourself in the bathroom. Look she's standing up on her ba back legs Yes, she's trying to be nosy. Ain't you Dandy. Dandy the dog. What's that you got? Microphone. Why? Because I'm taping you. Why are you taping? For a college. What, is it on now? What college? Norwegian college. Oh! Sweet, ain't she? Come on bark at me! She ain't barked since she was attacking you oh don't torment her, you cruel woman. Oh! Isn't she cute! You can, look, you can just squash her breasts. I not doing it. She'll kill you. Urgh! Gob all over me. big she gets now. I know, Chihuahua. Chihuahua brain. Come on then make some conversation. I hate him. I really, I've never hated people as much as I hate the teachers in this school. Let's sneak out. he'll start watching He knows what we're doing, he knows what we're doing cos he's standing there looking at us. You're not allowed out, girls! Why? That's what we're trying to do. But I've gotta go and get a drink! dehydrate! Can we go and play cricket then? Why not? That's not fair the boys Not fair! Gonna get my coat, I'm freezing! But I've been playing badminton and I sweat man. You smell, I suppose. You smell of babies bottoms. When they've done a nappy thing. set the fire alarm off and we could run out. Go on, Claire! Claire's got the guts to Oh yeah! True. Mind you Miss No, Miss'd blame me cos she knows me. Shelley! No, you've gotta break the glass first. No you ain't. You just go just go Somebody's already done it. Look, cos that's why it's already broken so if you push it it'll go. It'd be just my luck I'll just touch it and it'd go off. I remember when I was in , when I was in right? We was carrying this ta erm table up the stairs and some boy knocked it and it fire alarms, everyone was, water started pouring down cos they have all the water as well, like, if it is a fire it was pouring Is he still there? Is he still looking? Get away from the door. Don't, let's go and Miss! Miss! Can I get my coat please, I'm freezing cos it's cold up here. What am I supposed to do now, I'm freezing now, it's another five minutes! Please! She's cold, Miss! We didn't get to do anything good this year. It's all been boring. No, I mean all the fourth years last year you was allowed to out and go ice skating and things like that and this year we didn't get nothing. I no it's no we ain't got the money for it. Basically it's out of my hands now. I asked no way could I take two years out again and that was it. Why? well it's because, no, no, no, no Is it because of our year or is it to do with money. no, it's to do with money. Please do it Maggie because it's we have to miss out. To take to take the years out it costs around about eight thousand terms. But most people pa like And they weren't pay money to go anyway. Yeah, but they're not, the whole idea is that they're not, they don't wanna ask, they're not prepared to ask it's not right It should be provided by the school they've been against that whole thing. So they won't do that, and of course it's and the main thing that costs is the transport is every time you go on a bus you're down to whatever it is two hundred pounds, and because of the two areas that we use, I mean we're not gonna, I mean I don't really know School should have a bus of its own? Yeah. But it's not, it's not actually it's happened elsewhere. I mean some schools have not gone off site at all you know they've actually stayed inside Neither have we! They haven't gone anywhere. Neither have we. No, what I'm saying is some schools have lost it in year eleven as well. And I'm still waiting to hear whether or not We won't get it in year eleven? Well, I can't promise you that because that again like this year, I mean If we're not gonna get next year losing more and more money. have you noticed that? Well it's that's just nothing to do with the year It's all right for the first years now cos they're never even gonna know about it. When they get here Yeah, I know. It is hardest for your year because you've known other people to have erm Miss, can we go downstairs? Well I'm just Cos he started writing to her. She started writing to him and she didn't wanna, she don't like him, she hates him, but I was saying like yeah go on! You know, trying to get her into shit. I was saying say you like him, say you like him. She was going no! and I was writing yes! and giving it to him. And then it just ended up that all lesson they were passing notes and I was walking past dropping notes in his bag and stuff like that. Come on let's go. Miss, can we go down now? Yeah, come on, Miss. Yeah, Miss, we've been sitting up here, yeah, Miss, it's ten to! Miss, let's go down before anyone sees us and unlock it before everyone starts coming on down. That's it. Come on, Miss. Right. Now what do you wanna do? What do you need to go just go downstairs and Oh Miss, please. They're gonna all come rumbling down and knock us over. And I've got this stuff on. This is very expensive stuff. Come on let's go down and wait. No, we've gotta get the keys! Miss, give us the keys! you're such a goody goody. Mm. Knock you out with it. No, I'm not Osmond, I want my tape! No thank you, you haven't got one big enough. Osmond,I want my tape! Fucking cunt. Claire tell him Claire, tell him I want my tape. She wants her tape. Osmond, you're out of order you know. All right, apologize. I apo I apo What did you say? Did you say fuck ? Oh, Osmond, come on, give me the tape don't be out of order. Shut the fuck, woman! No! Look at your face! Er? are you trying to be funny? No. What's your name it's innit? No. She is funny actually, I was laughing. I, I admit it, man, she is funny. When I look at her I start laughing. She's looking at your face. Don't slap me you fool. Did you hear that? Did you hear that Osmond? Yeah, everyone heard it. Thanks Osmond. Don't touch me. I'm so glad you had this conversation with me while I've been miked up and I've got it all taped. I've got some very interesting things to say now to erm, you know, after I've taped him. I've got something on tape for you I want you to Where's your let's get . insemination. No, say it again. Artificial insemination. Yeah, I just wanted that posh word on there you know. record for fuck's sake! Do it, do it! I am. Is it recording? Yeah. Antidisestablishmentarianism. Work that one out students, students from Norway! That's what I said to Warren, I goes, this is going to Norway, this him fucking Norway!like that down the microphone. Come on then, let's hear your big words. What big word have you got? Large. Autobiography that's my biggest word. Not really. Go on. Fuck. What other songs are there? Feed tuppence a bag, tuppence tuppence, tuppence a bag! Feed Medicine go down, medicine go down, medicine go down. Just a spoonful of sugar of sugar makes the medicine go down in the most delightful way! I don't know the rest of it. What about Jungle Book? Does anyone know anything out of Jungle Book? Ooh, be, do, ooh, be, do, I wanna be like you ooh, ooh, ooh, be, do, be, do, I wanna walk like you, talk like you, ooh, ooh. Ooh, an ape like me, I'd like to be you, ooh, ooh, I do, ooh! He goes Yeah. Now I'm the king of the swingers, boy, the jungle V I P I've reached the top and had to stop and that's what's bothering me. Wanna be a man, man cub. Go out into town and be just like the other men, I'm tired of monkeying around. Oh, ooh, be, do Ain't you seen Jungle Book? Here you are, here you are! I know the complicated bit of Bare Necessities. Now when you pick a paw pear before prickling when you pick a pawpaw for a prickly pear and you pick the wrong pear next time beware! Don't pick the prickly pear with the paw when you pick the pear try to use the claw. You'll need to use the claw when you pick one of the big pawpaws. Have I given you a clue? You're supposed to say, golly, thanks Baloo. Oh gosh! Thanks Baloo. The bear necessities of life will come to you they'll come to you. They'll come to me! Yeah, that's it, they'll come to me! Come on let's hit it! Someone was weeping, but the world was sleeping someone was weeping, but the world was partying Shut up, man! You're so tone deaf! You sound like E T! You really sound like, say E T phone home. She's so skinny Hey, you just look like you're gonna fall over when someone blows you. Hey, isn't Kate look like she's gonna fall over if you blow on her? She looks so Dirty bitch! Sorry. Even I'm wider than you! I'm wider than everyone but She's taller than me though. Are you taller, no, she's not taller than me. We've finished our song now. What? Let's go fly a kite, up to the highest height. Let's go fly a kite and then No what's the other one? Mary'll make your, Mary'll make your, one where he's in the picture with her? Shut up! Oh let's sing Yankie Doodle into Town and you come in late right. Yankie Doodle went to town riding on a pony. Stuck a feather in you were supposed to come in! Let's do London's Burning cos I don't know that. I don't know London's Burning. Just sing Yankie Doodle went to town riding on a pony. Stuck a feather in his hat and called it macaroni. Right? You come in when Alice has finished the first bit and then you come . Yankie Doodle went to town riding on a pony. Stuck a feather in his hat and called it Macaroni. Yankie Doodle went to town riding on a pony. Stuck a feather in his hat Yankie Doodle went to town riding on a pony. Stuck a feather in his hat and called it macaroni Oh shut up! Yes please, I'll have some. Barcelona! Barcelona! Shell! Shelley! Shelley! Oh shit! I've cut my mike again. I know nothing about these . Bloody teachers! I'll meet you in there, all right? So come on, talk to me. Tell me your dreams. You are! Come on! Don't be shy, it's just a microphone. Come on then. Hit me with some conversation. Conversation would be nice. Go and make some conversation she's gonna tape him. Hi, Sir! today. Where's your mike? Are you taping? Yeah. I can hear you loud and clear coming through. Aargh! Where's my Easter egg? Give my Easter egg I won't bite you! Where's her fucking Easter egg! Come on, where is it? Karen! You're a bit quiet today, aren't you lovey? Does this microphone make you nervous. Come on, talk up dear! Tell us who you love. Come on! Come on! Talk up! Talk up! Sex you up, all night Who's in the Science group? Me. Hi, everyone! All shout hello. It's Miss out of here! What a shame! Bloody teachers ruining it again. And she said If you mention about your tape strangling you What tape? What tape? Osmond! Yeah, listening. She said if you don't wanna accept her apology then fine you don't have to Oh my god. Will you talk to her, Osmond? Look, there's nothing say nothing, you know There is! Well then talk to her! Josie! Do you know Joanne? The technician? Yeah we do. I know her but I don't, yeah, yeah I know her. Could you go round and ask her to let us in for me please? Yeah. Come on Karen. Are you gonna talk to me? Have I gotta talk to you? Now we're on our own. No, you gotta go downstairs. Oh, I knew that! I was just testing you. I'm not dumb! I told her all right? All right! You don't mess with him. You don't mess with him! He's too big. Oh this conversation. Grace! Did you find your bike? Yeah. Thank god. Good girl. Where're you going? I've gotta go and get the door open from the other side. Hi, Simeon! Shall I tell you who Sally fancies? Yeah, go on on the mike, love. In the mike, in the mike! Come on, tell me Karen, in the mike! All right then. Well, I was walking home Doesn't he look spastic with that pencil behind his ear. Innit? It looks so dumb. It looks like he's got cancer growing behind his ear. Looks like he's got cancer growing behind his ear. He's such a div, I hate him! What did you do in the holiday Why can't he clear up his spots? Nothing. Dumped Nick. You did knitting? I dumped him. You dumped knitting? I dumped Nick! Is that all you did? You didn't go out anywhere? Yeah, I went out with Shelley, with Warren a few times read read yeah? Josie,sharpener back? Do you want my sharpener? Yeah. All right then, I'll pass you my sharpener. Is the microphone on? Are you taping me? She is you know. She's not you know. Grace I'm taping you too. What's that? I'm taping you too. That's fine. That's fine with me, love? Yeah. Good, good, good. What about you Natasha darling? Taping Miss I've got her to saying hello. I've taped Osmond saying your mum. Who? Your Mum? Give me a book, I'm gonna read it. What? Give me a book, I want to read it. What Thinner? You can read my book. No, you can read Thinner. It's all right! I just wanna read this one cos this one's better. No, I'm reading this erm The Shining The Shining I've got a wicked book you see? Looks like sex, sex and more sex. You're so disgusting. Heatwave Oh dear, I'm so bored. So, who did you shag in your holidays then? Pardon? Who did you shag in your holidays? No one much. No one much! I've only got him on tape. You don't have to talk into the microphone. I can hear him from here. That's what ev when I go, I goes to Daniel I'm taping you know he started walking like this What? He started balancing like this I goes, I'm fil I'm taping you not filming you, they think you're filming them, you know, they look at the microphone and they go, hi! What did he say? What did you say? Nothing. I've got all different things I don't like these earphones they hurt my ears. They don't hurt my ears. These ones I don't like them cos I can't cos you can seem them. Put the other ones in. What? Put the other ones I know. It's raining, or it was. I think it is. I don't know. Come on, come on. Come on, come on. not do that now. Settle down. Well, here we go Er? That ain't on. What you do? It's not on, look! I wanna see,it is on. Thank you. You're welcome! Got that on tape I have. I've got it now too, with Shelley talking. And I've got And go away, go away, don't want to see you back again. Turn around Ah, can't do it, can you? What she say? Can't be horrible? By the way, I just thought I'd erm tell you that erm I'm taping you okay? I'm taping all of you people in this classroom at the moment. I can hear you all. I can hear Karen and Angela talking. I can I can hear him talking. Can you not talk please, I don't want you on my tape. It's a bit of a waste really, innit? If you're gonna say something say it, don't lie to me. You can't say I lied because like, you know Anyway, I'll read the book that you got. No, don't read that book it's crap. It's all right, but I don't want it on the tapes, it's rubbish. I know Who? Oh dear. That's not very nice is it, Josie? He's talking. Look who's talking! Exactly. Just cos he's tall he thinks he's a man. No! Sixteen, is he? Yeah, but remember, boys are three years behind in age in, in maturity. He's only thirteen. You're a year younger than us. That's a fact you know. Boys are three years younger than their actual age. You're nearly sixteen? When? My mum. She's really young she is. Yeah? Shame Shelley, when she Doesn't really do anything for me. Just makes me go all blurry Doesn't it? Don't walk away Filofax! That's a bloody big filofax! Supposed to have not magazines. Probably er, a cupboard full of porno mags. Yeah. That's what perverts do Go on then. What? You have to tell me something. Stop talking to him I don't want him on my tape, it's a waste. Yeah, he just say,hey man, hey man about your mum, your mum. your mum. Osmond, please, I really want my tape back. I've forgot which one it was. It was a Madonna one and it had a bit of other stuff on it on the other side. Like what? It's a see-through one with blue stickers on it, innit? Yeah, a see-through one with blue stickers, it's got erm on it It's got Whitney Houston on it. It's go My Girl on it It's got Maria, what's her name? Mariah Carey. Mariah Carey on it It's got Madness on it. It's got loads of stuff and it's got Madonna on it. I let him borrow it. Everyone said don't lend it to him, listen, they goes don't lend it to him, don't, you won't get it back he'll give it back. Try and find it for me, it was a ninety-minute one. And it's got Madonna and all sorts written on it. Don't call me that all right? What, oral sex? I wouldn't mind provided I had flavoured condoms I don't think there's nothing the matter with oral sex as long as, as long as he's got a clean penis! It's, it's safer! It's safer sex, you know. No, I don't think there's anything the matter with oral sex. Would you ever toss someone off . Toss your boyfriend off? What's that? Wanking for him. I've already done that To Nick's nose. Yeah To Nick's nose! I've never handled Nick. I hear you've fallen out. He ain't talking to me and I ain't talking to him. Simple as that. Why? May I ask? Look, he can't take it because I dumped him. All right, I'm, I'm never speaking to you again because ever since you dumped him he's been hanging around with us and he's pissing me off! He's so annoying, int he? He is. He thinks he's it. Innit? If you touch him, it's do you mind? Do you mind? No, but he has gone going round Right, and he's so, have you noticed he is, he is so violent, int he? I mean No. I'll tell you what I hate about him, right. Is the fact that out of a Madonna song this is he thinks he's so much better than me. And he does. That was the whole point and the way, it was like, he could he could hit, he could, he could hit me or go like that to my hair or run his fingers through my face, rip all my clothes up, you know what I mean, not rip them off, rip them up! Up. And like, you weren't allowed to touch him. I hate that, I hate boys like that. Don't touch me. My hair! I used to do it with my brother. He's such a girl! He's,mind my hair, mind my hair. My brother used to take a comb to school in his sports bag and when he was walking to school he goes Yeah, I hate boys that do that, it's really annoying. And I don't know what he no he don't to me, and I don't know what he's doing hanging about with you lot. I don't, I don't think he knows what the word love or anything means. I know he just says it cos when I said It mea it means having someone to brag about to his friends. Cos when he said, cos when I said Conference, could you be upstanding and welcome on to the platform, Catherine and , delegates from the Lancashire region where last year's congress was held, to unveil the G M B banner. Congress, it gives me great pleasure to declare congress open. This in fact is the first time that the G M B has held its conference in Portsmouth. We're absolutely delighted to be here not least because we have membership throughout the spread of Portsmouth in the various different industries which we as a union represent the naval dockyards the utilities, energy, water, gas, electricity and many other industries including the . So we're delighted to bring our conference to support our members in Portsmouth. Equally colleagues, we're delighted to be here not least because the Labour Party has made significant inroads into Portsmouth. And with now fourteen Labour councillors as opposed to seventeen Tories and a few Lib Dems the Labour Party in Manchester, in, sorry, in Portsmouth well in Manchester as well will soon join their colleagues on the south coast in Southampton and gain power in Portsmouth. So it's my great pleasure to declare congress open and to welcome everybody to Portsmouth. Colleagues, for the benefit of first-time delegates this is going to be the running order of business for the week the final agenda, this includes the rule amendment motions the general motions the standing orders committee guideline for congress business and the standing orders committee first report which we will come to later this mor this morning. And then in addition there are the thirty one composite motions that regions have agreed since the pre-congress delegates' meetings and finally an index to the general motions so that's very much an explanation for the benefit of first-time delegates to congress. Can we now proceed to welcome the Deputy Mayor to ask him to give us a civic welcome. Can I introduce and welcome the Deputy Lord Mayor of the city of Portsmouth Councillor Jim . Jim was born in Buttleberry Berkshire and comes from a farming stroke dairy background. a short time in farming Councillor worked for Fosters Electrical Engineers, Basingstoke as an electrician's mate. He joined the Royal Navy in nineteen fifty one as a cook being demobbed in nineteen fifty eight. In the same year he joined British Gas Southern as a driver in the transport section he has now nearly completed thirty four years' service with British Gas and has been a member of this trade union for nearly thirty four years. Jim was elected to Portsmouth city council in nineteen seventy six as a member for where I understand he tried to play football occasionally until nineteen eighty six. After a year off he then returned as a member to the in nineteen eighty seven. During his term as councillor Jim has served as chairman of the transportation committee and also on numerous committees. Outside council business Mr is a representative of the Langstone Harbour Board activities the Lord Chancellor's advisory committee and has been governor of five local schools. Jim is married to Joy who has lived in Portsmouth all her life they have one daughter Julie who still lives with them in . Jim's hobbies include philately an interest in most sporting events walking his dog in the countryside and do-it-yourself. Can I thank Jim very much indeed for attending our conference this morning and ask him to give us a civic welcome. Mr President brothers, sisters, and friends I know I'm amongst many friends here. I am delighted to be here today to open the G M B congress for nineteen ninety three as Deputy M Mayor of this great city of Portsmouth, and not Manchester. Mr Chairman, er, I'd like to thank you for those nice words of introduction but I am particularly delighted as I am a lifelong member of the G M B, of almost thirty five years' standing, due to my employment with British Gas and my long membership with the Labour Party. The G M B annual conference is the supreme policy making body within the union all members branches officers and sections national committees and conferences are subject to its authority. I know the congress considers and determines all questions of policy affecting the general industry, political or social welfare of membership and attracts around two thousand five hundred delegates, visitors and guests. This includes leading British and European politicians representatives of foreign embassies in the United Kingdom international trade union leaders senior industrialists and employers. The G M B is widely hailed to be the most progressive British trade union and is regarded as a key opinion former of all matters of industrial and economic and social policies. The G M B's influence in the British labour movement and congress also provides a sounding board for the views of the political nature which can have a significant impact on the direction of the Labour Party. Mr President Portsmouth is a thriving maritime city with much to be proud of we have many supreme attractions Victory Mary Rose and Warrior amongst others which I hope you will have a chance to visit some time during your stay here in Portsmouth. Our ferry port which opened in nineteen seventy six is now the second largest ferry port on the south coast and it is city-owned yielding profit they are reinvested back into our city. We are very proud to be the home of the Royal Navy even though we have suffered tremendously from the defence cuts. We are confident that we can overcome these difficulties by encouraging diversification within our local industries. We are delighted to have you here you are most welcome we do hope you will enjoy yourself so much you will return as soo as soon as you can, to perhaps take advantage of our ferry port links with Normandy, and now Bilbao in Spain. It now leaves me with only the very pleasant duty to declare the congress open and to wish it great success. I hope my duties will allow me to spend some time with you, but I will be attending this evening's Red Rose Rally and I look forward to seeing you there. Thank you all very much. Colleagues, to to mark the event on the occasion of Councillor 's, er civic address and welcome to conference, it's my great pleasure to present by John and a suitably inscribed tankard made by our members in Sheffield. Colleagues, can I extend a very warm welcome to a number of special guests who are attending conference Ryan , head of the international department of and John , U S Embassy's councillor for labour affairs I'm not sure exactly where our colleagues are yes John and an omnibus vote of, er, an omnibus welcome for a very large number of colleagues who are attending, er conference this year, Kevin , Birmingham regional president Jack , retired Lancashire regional secretary John , retired Liverpool regional secretary John , retired London regional secretary Cyril , retired Midland regional secretary, hang on, it goes on Andrew , retired Northern regional secretary Jim , Scottish retired regional secretary Derek , retired Southern regional secretary it's a good job we've got a good pension fund but one that's gonna top all that without any shadow of a doubt, he must be the youngest pensioner this side of the Mississippi and that's Alan , retired executive officer who's on a busman's holiday this week Roger union solicitor Bill retired N I O, hopefully won't be having any accidents this week retired education and training manager. A warm welcome colleagues to all our colleagues. The general member auditors, er, I'm told that they, they look after the money they've not been able to find themselves seats I understand this morning, so hopefully everything's in order but somewhere around Eric George and Arthur are they around? Oh they're there, ah they're at the front, that's the best place for them. A warm welcome colleagues. And trusty Jim Now, we've got quite a long list, colleagues, of, er, members of the European Parliament and members of Parliament who will be with us during the course of the week for for short stays er Euro European MPs first, er Linden , Cheshire West secretary of the European P L P Steven , Durham, deputy leader of the European P L P Hugh , Strathclyde West Barry , Yorkshire West and from the G M B parliamentary group, er, these MPs may only be present for short periods Nicholas , Newcastle-upon-Tyne East Doug , Newcastle-upon-Tyne North Gerald ,George , Hamilton Clive Hammersmith and Giles who's drawn the short straw, who's going to give us an address this morning. Colleagues, a warm welcome to all our parliamentary colleagues. And the official verbatim writers couple of people who work very hard indeed er, during the course of the week Mavis and Michael Mavis , sorry, and Michael warm welcome colleagues. And colleagues, a couple of colleagues that, er, few of us appear to appreciate from time to time, and those are the signers who do a very important job for some delegates who are here this week. That's Margot and Brenda our colleague on the platform and our colleague sat there welcome. Can I now ask the general secretary to do the roll call John. John calling the roll Birmingham and West Midlands Lancashire region Liverpool, North Wales and Irish London Midland and East Coast Northern G M B Scotland Southern South Western er Yorkshire and North Derbyshire er, those, er, changes that haven't already been notified, could they be notified to the congress office. Thanks President. Thank you very much John, and could I ask the General Secretary to deal with the appointment of . Er, Birmingham region, Brian , who will count G M B Scotland Lancashire region, John who will count Southern Liverpool region, Alan who will count South Western London, Bill who will count Yorkshire Midland, Colin who will count Birmingham Northern, Derek who will count Lancashire G M B Scotland, Mary , who will count Liverpool Southern, Jack who will count London South Western, John , the other John , who will count Midland Yorkshire, Ray who will count Northern er, and now the pep talk it should be emphasized that tellers must remain in the congress hall while congress is in session and of course that delegates must be in their allotted seats when a vote is taken. Colleagues, can I now take, er, a moment of your time and it gives me very great pleasure to call upon the President to deliver his address to congress. Your President, Dick . Thank you very much, er, conference, and indeed it gives me great pleasure to address you this morning. You may recall delegates who were at congress last year, that I spoke about governments having the moral support of the people. Not just having a majority in parliament to govern you and that was being described at that particular time by the Tory government that their majority would be adequate they had a majority of twenty one. But much has happened in that short fourteen months since the general election. And we said that people would realize the mistake in voting Tory and haven't they? Manufacture industry barely surviving thousands of job losses a public service borrowing requirement at a staggering fifty billion pounds Black Wednesday devaluation government climb-downs, U-turns, defeats on Maastricht, the mines, education, railway privatization V A T on heating bills. The country effectively run by fourteen Tory backbenchers a Prime Minister who was told by his Party and has been told by his, by the country consistently to get rid of a chancellor who is totally and utterly incompetent. And after losing all but one of the shire counties and a major by-election defeat sacks his chancellor and then effectively promotes to number two in the government the person who wants his job! And the right wing of the Tory Party in open rebellion. A government clearly that is split both politically and is totally incompetent the government's majority is now down to eighteen and all the predictions are that within a few weeks it will be down to seventeen. It will be amazing if this government runs the full course and as we saw in nineteen nineties the Tories just love leadership elections putting the knife in. What they don't like is turning up at the House of Commons and having to do some work, because they can't stand the pressure. The Economist that bastion of left wing thinking commissioned an actuary to estimate the likely number of vacancies during a parliament ten point seven three sorry to be precise about this colleagues Tory MPs can be expected to die over a full five year term, I'm sorry for being morbid. Rebellion is now a habit that could become institutionalized. I suppose on both there is such a thing as divine providence there is as much chance of Major holding the Tories together as Manchester City winning the Premier League! In Britain, unlike many parliamentary democracies in the world, we have an opposition that is actually paid to oppose the government of the day I think. Last year, this union held a ballot and a hundred and forty thousand members took part in that ballot for the leader of the Labour Party and they made it absolutely clear to the executive that as far as they were concerned they wanted a part and a say in who was the leader of the Labour Party, and they di decided dem democratically. For the last six months the momentum has grown we've been lectured to by ex-leaders of the Party by ex-parliamentary stars by Give-us-a-Meal Roy by budding prima donnas by the wagon-load,telling us how we should be gagged ! And how they should be no longer answerable to ordinary working people they know best, they will decide their political record is far from impressive lost four general elections the last one was on their agenda! You remember it the razzmatazz no trade union involvement,involved keep out of it boys, we'll deal with it. On the doorsteps in Rochdale, in Newcastle, in Birmingham, in Nottingham, there wasn't a mention by, of the trade union movement. It was not a trade union agenda. And there was no public outcry. We do indeed have the right to ask who really are our friends? Amongst the activists in branch, at branch and constituency level there is much speculation about the parliamentary leadership's desire to br bring in one member one vote. O M O V you can't buy it at the chemist it isn't a new type of bread for some religious festival it's not a new cleaning detergent O M O V what is O M O V? It narrows the franchise of those entitled to vote in the Labour Party because the fact of the matter is the Labour Party membership is declining. So all these people who lecture to us about democracy should really examine the situation it's got nothing to do with democracy whatsoever when less people are entitled to have a say. Do they want to float free answerable to no one and free to trade with other political parties of political power in exchange for new voting systems, which have absolutely no credibility with us and absolutely have no credibility with the British people, cos they don't want it! We stand for a de democratic party but we will not allow a bunch of politicians to hijack this party! The fundamental issue is this that if the Labour Party is to remain a party of labour it must have as an integral part the trade union movement,it's as simple as that, colleagues ! And for those who want to propose alternative tenuous links for the good of their own egos whether they be members of Parliament or full-time officers of other trade unions they do this movement no credit or good whatsoever. For those who cannot maintain, who cannot support the maintenance of the links of the trade union movement Party, we say this start packing your bags there's the door, we'll stick around ! Instead of shooting ourselves in the foot our people are asking, where does the fi fight start? Against the worst and most incompetent government in living memory. The Timex workers in Dundee left without any legal protection whatsoever, and is this a forerunner for what other unscrupulous employers will use? The attack on the trade union movement check-off our, our existence the existence of the trade union movement is under attack union membership and others the shipyard workers at Swan Hunter the thousands of local authority workers who have lost their jobs those are the issues in which our parliamentary party should be addressing now on behalf of our people ! Last year congress carried a motion on racism and fascism expressing its alarm at the rise of fascism and racism in Germany and France this has always been a trade union issue. We were the first union in nineteen seventy six to come out with our policy on the then Race Relations Act it's always been a trade union issue whether it was the trade unions in Germany in the twenties and thirties fighting Hitlerism and Nazi-ism or whether it was the trade unions fighting Moseley and his black shirts in Britain it has always been part of our ideals and principles. We stand for solidarity between workers of all races and colours and we are opposed and must stop unscrupulous politicians and racist groups using the race issue to divide working people! We thought that last year we hoped that last year, the murder of migrant workers in and the demonstrations of fascist thugs was clearly not isolated. We are appalled at the attack and murder of the migrant Turkish workers and their families in Germany. And in Britain between nineteen eighty eight and nineteen ninety one there has been a doubling of racist attacks in large areas of London it is now commonplace for such attacks to take place. The facts are there there has been a staggering rise in attacks and murders this union must take the lead we call for the British government to bring in legislation to ban the evil nationalist and fascist political parties, and insist that government strengthens legal protection for third country nationals. We want the E E C to do the same we don't want pious statements we don't want words we need action and deeds now, colleagues. Colleagues, we have much work to do and many challenges to face. Trade union congress will shortly have a new general secretary a new leader. The G M B has argued for change in how the T U C operates. We believe the T U C's role should be one of more services to its affiliates to direct membership with greater emphasis on health and safety and recruitment. New unions have now emerged which we have not faced before we must not dodge these challenges because they may appear difficult or hard and we must be prepared to learn off anybody who has something to show us to close our minds would be a mistake. Colleagues, eight years ago our union, along with other organizations in the trade union movement, balloted for a political fund. Five hundred thousand of our members took part in that particular ballot four hundred and fifty thousand of our members decided that they would support a political fund it was the first awakening, in my opinion, since nineteen forty five of the political views of ordinary trade union members. Shortly congress this union will be required to ballot again on this politically motivated move. I believe again that our members will support the call and in so doing call for a general election to dismiss this totally incompetent government! Thank you very much indeed. I would like to now to call on Steve , Dick's namesake, regional secretary of Midland region, to move the vote of thanks. President, colleagues, Steve , on behalf of the central executive council Midland and East Coast region, and can I assure delegates today that this is not an outbreak of nepotism. Whilst it might be unusual for, probably unique in fact, for a to thank a , can I reassure all delegates we are not related so rumour has it. President just spelt out very clearly why in fact we're in the G M B and three words came to my mind three very simple words compassion care and change. Compassion for the victims of this sick Tory society compassion for the millions of people who have no work compassion for the victims of racists and racisms compassion for the victims of the public service cuts, whether it be the miserable one and a half percent pay offers compulsory competitive tendering job cuts, low pay, the pensioners, the elderly, the sick, the child, the list is never ending. And who picks up many of these victims? Well the G M B does. When this government talks about safety nets for those in need, I tend to look six inches below ground level to find it often the G M B is the only safety net above the ground which leads me to my second word we do this because we care we care about our country our economy, and our people. We care about the old age pensioners the poor the single parents and all those people who in a winter's time are going to struggle and some are tragically going to fail to pay seventeen and a half percent V A T on fuel and heating bills. We care about low pay and low incomes and it's estimated that in this country this so-called wealthy country that we have about eleven million people now on or just below E C poverty standards. Twenty percent of our population one in five what a disgrace. Which actually then brings me to my third and last point President care needs change. Now we need change to benefit our people our members your families and your friends. And we need a political voice to do that, President a political voice and influence through a Labour Party that's committed to strive for our goals by working with us and through us and we're not ashamed of our links with the Labour Party. I just wondered, colleagues if Azil Nadir of Polly Peck fame currently I understand sunbathing in Northern Cyprus would be prepared to say how proud he is to be associated with the Tories of course in saying that I do include Michael Mates, and I just wondered whether or not this watch he sent was in fact a Timex watch. We have no hidden gifts and no hidden donations to the Labour Party we have an open and upfront relationship with them and we intend to carry that through. You referred to the ex-parliamentary stars, President the budding prima donnas well I should, I would suggest that they ought to go away and look at their roots. We in the G M B know about our roots and we always will because of a very, another important word we're accountable we're accountable in the real world to real people with real issues and real problems not the hothouse world of some sections of the Parliamentary Labour Party. We need to get on with the real tasks working closely together the G M B and the Labour Party because working together will achieve the objectives of change for the good. Now cousin, oh er ah, I'm sorry, erm, President, because you know you get all sorts of distortions on this don't you can I say, President, er, cos call him brother at times colleagues, on behalf of congress, can I thank you President, very very much for the very positive and very strong challenges that you've put before us, and the theme that I believe will carry us through the rest of the week. Thank you very much. Thanks very much indeed, Steve. Can I now, er, ask congress to stand as a mark of respect for departed colleagues Colleagues, while we're standing, can I remind you of a number of colleagues of ours who have died in the past year George , national office Dick from Scotland of South Western region Lord from Southern region Julie from Southern region William from national office from Northern region from Birmingham Harry , London regional secretary Grace from London region from Yorkshire region and many many others not mentioned here that have given their energy and their commitment on behalf of the G M B members, we remember them all Thank you very much colleagues Colleagues, can I ask the general secretary to report on the constitution of the standing orders committee. The standing orders committee is made up as follows Birmingham region, John Lancashire region, Noel Liverpool, Les , London John , Midland Paddy , Northern Jerry G M B Scotland John Southern Peter , South Western Keith , Yorkshire Kevin and I am delighted to tell you that the standing orders committee have elected as chairman this year, John . Thanks very much. Will conference confirm the appointment of standing orders committee? Thanks very much. And could I now call upon the Chair of the standing orders committee, John , to move standing orders committee report number one. President, congress on behalf of the standing orders committee, I move standing orders committee report number one, which you will find on pages one four six to one four eight of the final agenda. On behalf of the committee I wish to thank all of those delegates and their regional secretaries who cooperated so well in agreeing thirty one composite motions. The composites are printed on pages one four one to one seven six of the final agenda. Since the report was printed the committee has given permission for a bucket collection to be taken at the end of this afternoon's session for our colleagues involved in the dispute. The committee has also ruled that an emergency motion from the Southern region on the Crawley disp Crawley dispute is in order and will be emergency motion number one. The committee has given permission for a bucket collection to be taken at the end of congress on Monday to help these colleagues as well. Would the officers from Southern and Birmingham regions who'll be, who will be responsible for these collections, please come to the S O C immediately on completion of this report. The standing orders committee has been involved I'm sorry, the standing orders committee has been informed that the central executive council has withdrawn motion two. The standing orders committee has also been informed that the central executive council will submit to congress a special motion on Swan Hunter a special motion on a proposed transfer of engagement from the Furniture, Timber and Allied Trades Union. The central executive council will also submit to congress a motion, number one O six A, amending rule sixty seven. President, congress, I move S O C report number one. Thank you very much, John. Conference accept er conference arrangement report thanks very much. Yes. Chair, I'd like to challenge standing orders on motion three O one , an example being in the part-time workers' qualification into it was done by a recommendation of and we therefore request that it stays on the agenda. That was motion three O one, colleague that three O one? Three O one anybody else on the S O C reports? John. Thank you Yes. Well it seems that, er, motion Could you give your name please, colleague? Oh yes, Hughie , London region. Motion one O nine it states here, this motion seeks to amend rule T twenty one . Now, I've gone right through all the bloody rules to this and I can't see where this has been expired. If it has, it should be printed. concerned this rule still stands and it has not expired. So Okay Could we have clarification of that, Okay John. Thank you President. Motion three O one motion three O one specifically calls for changes to the local government superannuation scheme through the steering committee. That committee is in effect a negotiating body. This motion should therefore be dealt with by the committee itself but before it is, it should be considered by the relevant local authority industrial conference. It is a pure term of, and conditions motion. The mover of the motion might want to take part in the debate on motion three seven one, pensions. Motion one O nine seeks to amend rule T twenty one, paragraph six. That rule is part of the rule governing the transition from the B M S section to the technical crafts section. It opens with the words for the period ending the third of December nineteen ninety one. The technical crafts section national committee shall consist of congress will appreciate that the clause ceased to have any relevance on the fourth of December nineteen ninety one it would be quite illogical to seek to make a respect retrospective amendment to this rule. President and congress, I move. Thanks very much, John. Do our two colleagues wish to press the reference back? Colleague! Do you, do you wish to, hang on a minute Hughie. Colleague! Do you wish to continue with the reference back? No Hughie? Do you wish to press the reference? No, don't come back again Hughie do you wish to press the reference back? You do. Reference back has been moved, colleagues, is that seconded? Yes, it's seconded. All those in favour of the reference back of S O C report number one against that's lots. All those in favour of the S O C report against that's carried. Thanks very much John. Thank you. Colleagues, we now to come to a, an item on the agenda which is always very pleasurable at our annual conference and I refer of course to the presentation of the G M B gold badge. And this morning we're presenting two activists with the gold badge the women and the men's and during the course of the week, we'll be presenting the youth award to one of our young members. If I could first of all deal with the presentation of the women's gold badge and the executive has decided that the award should go this year to Peggy from the Midland and East Coast region. Peggy has been a member of the union for twenty three years been a shop steward for eleven years the last nine at K P Foods and also branch quality officer, been a branch committee member and a member of the Midland and East Coast regional council member of the regional Labour women's conference and she's been to G M B congress, congress on a number of occasions. And Peggy's represented the G M B at the international women's er, food conference in Gene Geneva. Peggy's held numerous positions in and trades councils. She's been a school governor a Labour councillor T L P executive member member of the Social Security and industrial tribunals. And, quite frankly, colleagues, the list is endless. But it's not a question of holding office for the sake of holding office. Whenever Peggy has been asked to serve, she's willingly and gladly undertaken the duties. She was the first woman delegate to the Humberside County Association of Trades Councillors and the first woman on the executive and has had an enormous impact on the Association's efforts on women's issues. But I think that the greatest tribute of all that can be paid to Peggy, and I feel sure it would come from her members and it's this, and it's basically what the trade union movement is all about and it's about representing ordinary people at the shop floor because whenever anybody asks Peggy to do anything for them, to represent them, she's always the first one there. Colleagues, an excellent record and a worthy winner of the G M B's gold badge Peggy . President, colleagues, I am so proud and honoured to receive this gold badge, more so because this is the award given to me by you President, I do want to thank a number of people I also want to thank the regional secretary, Steve , who thank you, Steven, for your support and guidance. Next, I would like to thank John for his support and encouragement I'd like to mention Carole who has always been there when I've needed At this point who again has always been very supportive I also want to thank members of the regional both past and present, but particularly I'd like to thank all the regional officers and staff for their assistance and particularly George , Hugh and the officer I would also like to thank regional political officer for the Midlands and East Coast we now hold all the major positions of the Labour Party with I would also like to thank the national food and leisure committee for their help and support and particularly to David , Nick and To conclude, President, I'd like to express my sincere thanks and love to those important people around me, my family. I pay a great tribute to my dad, who as a trade unionist on the railway would have been so proud to see me receive this very great honour. To my mum who along with my dad helped me my daughter , who I'm very proud of as now she's started taking greater interest in G M B. To my mum who at the moment doesn't enjoy the best of health, who over the years has had to endure a daughter who, er, on some occasions has not been a very great help to her, has guided me through very difficult times, as mums always do. Finally, to the one person who throughout my life has been a great friend and now my husband,. I don't know how to put into words the very great depth of gratitude that I owe for his patience, for his advice, and for his friendship, but most of all the love and respect that I, as I have for him . Conference, I accept this award on behalf of all women activists within my union because, sisters, we know it's not always easy for women, however, I'm here to prove that we can achieve, but we need the encouragement and support of our male colleagues . Thanks very much Peggy . Colleagues, I now come to the presentation of the G M B gold award for men. Erm I can personally testify that the, the award winner that this year is somebody that I've known for something like twenty six, twenty seven years. Again another colleague with a really outstanding record of service not only to the trade union movement and the Party but more so to the G M B and I refer to Eric from the Lancashire region. Erm Eric in, in Manchester from where he comes is extremely well known obviously within the G M B but his record he's one of the individuals in the trade union movement that I think are becoming somewhat of a rarity these days I know that many of us when we first started in the movement were very easily able, and, and very relaxed about combining trade union and political activities together but of course as time goes on and, you do tend to become more involved in the one and the other, because of course it's all time-consuming but I can honestly say that in Eric's case he's never deviated one iota from his commitment both to the trade union, this union in particular,and to the Party never deviated at all . He spent a great deal of time in his efforts certainly for this trade union and in recruitment where he works, he's made it not hundred percent, hundred and ten percent and is constantly, er, recruiting constantly recruiting. Politically well yes he's involved at every level as indeed many comrades are but if, the sign of his political influence, I think is as follows that if there are any anything major going down in his territory any major political problems coming up, then the leader of the council, one of the first people he contacts is Eric . Er, what goes on behind those closed doors, even I don't know. But that's a measure of his influence. The other thing I would say is this that the management, whilst they very rarely agree with what Eric has got to say I've never met a member of management at any level, at any level that doesn't respect what he's got to say and that's a tremendous, er psychological blow before they even get round the table, because he's completely disarming and his record in terms as vic er for, of victories, for individual members and groups of mem er, members, er, is legendary and I think apart from his ability it's the respect in which he's held by, by everybody, by everybody. So I could go on at great length, colleagues, to tell you that he's on this committee and that committee well er and that would take me a good half hour because he's, he's on, he's involved in everything in everything in the Party in the union erm, and his commitment is absolutely second to none. I was absolutely delighted, colleagues, when the, er, recommendation came through that Eric should be awarded the gold badge because I could personally testify that there can be no better winner or holder of the G M gold badge. Eric colleagues. Thank you. Well I think I heard the violins then, you know. I really did. Ah, what I'm going to say today, this is not me swan song don't anybody think it's me swan song. Though I've retired, I'm still active for the G M B in my city and six to eight weeks of retirement nearly did for me trolley so before anybody jumps for it, think about it, because it's boring. Now down to business I would like to thank the executive for awarding me this gold badge. Many times I have sat down there amongst you the, the delegates, and seen the acti activists receive this, this award. I never thought that I would join their ranks for me being the steward and the convenor was always enough. It was what I wanted, to receive the gold badge is pure bonus thank you, thank you executive committee. Many people own a share of this gold badge with me, my wife and family, who have helped and supported me in whatever I have been involved in especially Betty. Over the years the G M B has been a major part of our family life the night meetings sometimes being away from home the disputes I have been involved in you have shared them with me and listened to me, and because of my involvement you have always supported me. Thank you Betty for helping me to win this award. and sweepers who I always represented, and though I am now retired, I cannot do without them. Also the other men and women I represented when I became convenor they made me what I am and I thank them. My region I thank for nominating me the region I am so proud to belong to. To my regional secretary, Ernie Ernie, remember when we occupied the Manchester City Council chamber on council day? You kept saying we'll all be locked up,yet you stayed with us. I was hoping we would get locked up,to have shared a cell with you, it would have been hilarious, really ! I have laughed at that thought many times these are the things to remember. Ernie, I thank you. Nearly thirty years ago now, as an honorary member, I organized a thir first strike in my depot. Our then new young branch secretary came in to sort out our grievance before he left the yard, our grievance was sorted, and I was the new collection steward. Oh just been a collection steward, the new young secretary said. I said, just a collection steward, that is the agreement. Yes, said , so the agreement between us was made signed in blood I thought then I shook hands with him the signature faded before he left the yard. When I remind him of our agreement now he tells me to get lost. On the handshake it was only when I got notified that I'd been awarded the gold badge, I realized I never got my hand back that day. It was a fair price to pay, Richard I made a good and trusted friend that day. Life for me has never been dull around you what more could I ask? Thank you, Richard. Richard, our enemies were always the Tories and the bosses and we have fought them for everything we got. We still have our two traditional enemies, but now a third looms an enemy in the Labour Party an enemy supporting the now ancient cry of the Tories and the Tory national press, for one man one vote replacing the vote in the trade unions a distancing of the Labour Party from the unions if we let them get away with this, it would mean none of the established political parties represent the interests of ordinary working people the people who I've always represented, that's what I think about, just them! Business and employers organizations are well represented in parliament their secret funding of the Tory Party buys them influence and Tory Party policies, and nothing is said. We need to be in the Labour Party it is only there that we the unions can take part in making policy about the future of our industries and services, and taking care of our members. Better that we get rid of these people in the Labour Party if they do not want our involvement let them go and form their own party, as a trade union ordinarily formed originally formed the Labour Party ! And that must be the cry tell them, go and join your own party. Let us remind the Labour Party that they should be attacking this useless Tory government, not supporting them, not voting with them, not supporting them by abstaining when necessary we'll never get power that way! We must organize against them in the wards and in the constituencies to drive this menace out! Well, we've now got a member of the parliamentary panel to follow that colleagues. I can see him coming as well Settle down President. Er, colleagues it's now my great pleasure to ask Giles , MP for Durham North, to address congress on behalf of the G M B parliamentary panel. Giles is a longstanding me I must finish my speech Sorry Gi I'm so eager to get to my Yes I know , I know. I'll be watching very very carefully. Erm Giles is a longstanding member of this union, colleagues, and er, many colleagues may not realize it, but was formerly the res the national research officer of the union for many years before he, he entered parliament and of course, from time to time , enters into the script of things and many colleagues will know that er one of the great biographers of the trade union movement is of course , Constructive Militant you know, a must for all G M B new stewards and new convenors and branch secretaries a must to be read. Giles is the author of that particular work. Colleagues, it's my pleasure to call upon Giles to address congress this morning. Giles. Dick, thank you for those kind words, er, specially about er my book, and I think I am considering appointing you as my agent er, you also said er that I'd dr drawn the short straw indeed you er whispered to me that I was the sacrificial lamb this morning well we'll see about that but I do know that I have the great honour to be invited to speak to congress this morning on behalf of the G M B parliamentary group. Now the G M B parliamentary group is a powerful and influential organization it's well balanced between front-benchers and back-benchers, between men and women and between the youthful and, how shall I put it, the more experienced and as you would expect, its members are prominent in the attack on this weak, incompetent, and rudderless Conservative government. But I want to begin this morning by thanking you on behalf of the group, because all of us owe the G M B an enormous debt of gratitude none more than myself. It's no exaggeration to say that I owe my start in politics to the G M B because after having worked, as Dick said, for the G M B for a number of years it was the support of the G M B which helped me win the nomination for Chesterly Street and in the early eighties I can remember when er the Labour Party was going through a difficult period it was officials and members of the G M B who were a steadying influence in my constituency, as they have been ever since. And when, as shadow education spokesman, I was a frontline campaigner in the nineteen eighty seven election, it was the G M B which provided me with the necessary facilities to carry out that role, and I thank them for it. Throughout my political life, I've received restain sustained help from the G M B. In a very real sense, the union has been my political family. Now I've dwelt for a moment on my own experience because I think it epitomizes that of the Labour Party as a whole from to John , the G M B has been a tower of strength always there to assist not only with money and resources, but also with advice and support and on behalf of my parliamentary colleagues, I want to thank the union for all it is, it has done for the Labour Party. And I want to stress this morning how essential it is that the link between the Labour Party and the unions be maintained. Now there have been some allegations flying around that there are people in the parliamentary Labour Party who want to get rid of that link and I want to categorically say that there is no serious figure in the Labour Party who shares that opinion there's no one in the G M B group who takes that view there's no one in the Shadow Cabinet and what is more, I know from my own personal experience, and my dealings with him over thirty years, that there is no greater supporter of the trades union link than John Smith himself! It was Ernest who said that the Labour Party grew out of the bowels of the trades union movement. But it isn't just a matter of history. There are strong, practical arguments for the link today for the trades unions trades union involvement in the Party ensures that trades union interests are represented in parliament. In addition unions have wider social and political concerns and objectives beyond collective bargaining which are best represented through the Labour Party. For their part for the, for the part of the Labour Party, trades unionists provide a solid and substantial electoral base which, which, which will hopefully increase during the nineteen nineties. And there is also the crucial issue of political financing which we've heard about already this morning, and which is such a vexed question in French Spanish, and Italian politics now everybody wants to see more money coming from an expanded, er, political membership. There is also the case for state financing, which is the position of the Party but for the foreseeable future the Labour Party will need trades union money, and as Steve said even our fiercest critics have to admit that the money the union gives to the Party is open and above board and that's more than can be said of the money that's used to finance the Conservative Party. The Tories don't publish proper accounts. There are sinister stories of donations from dubious sources including Communist China and Azil Nadir. Indeed arguably the only reliable evidence of who has given money to the Tory Party is the honours list which is published twice a year! But as important as our joint interests are our shared values and I think a very good example of this is our common approach, er er, to the question of the Social Chapter for which the Labour opposition led, I may say, by two leading G M B spokesmen Jack and George the Labour opposition has fought long and hard for this in parliament, indeed, we have secured a vote on the question er, after the Queen's ascent, and last month, I myself, as a guest of the Danish social democrats, took the argument to the continent in the Danish referendum, in the second Danish ref referendum, which I'm very glad to say was won! All of us in the European socialist movement in the European trades union movement insists that employees are not just units of production, but are entitled to rights at work across the European community. So the real question facing us at the moment is not whether there should be a relationship, or whether there should be a link but in what way we should modernize it and arrange it today. Our constitutional arrangements were established as long ago as nineteen eighteen though it's true, of course, that they were amended in nineteen eighty, eighty one. But I think it's fair to say that the changes in the n nine, early nineteen eighties particularly those which gave the unions a predominant position in choosing the leader, were not of the unions' making, certainly not of the G M B's making, as I know from personal experience at the time. I think that in the nineteen nineties, there is agreement that some reform is need is needed that there should be a better balance between the different groups at conference, and that decision making in the parties should be seen to be democratic open and based on one person one vote. But it's no secret, however and er we've heard echoes of that this morning that there is a lively debate as to the pre precise details of what a reform package should be. John Smith the leader of our Party has put forward his own personal preference for one member one vote for the selection of candidates, with a special cut rate for trades unionists who pay the political levy. Now his view obviously has to be seriously considered put forward, as it is, by a leader who has the support, when he was elected, of ninety percent of the Party, including ninety percent of the unions. So we will have to consider it. Now speaking to you, as chairman of the G M B parliamentary group I can tell you that we have met twice over the last few weeks on this issue of modernization and we are agreed on the need to avoid a damaging public row from which everybody yes including the unions, will lose. What is clearly required is a constructive solution which provides a proper basis for modernizing our joint relationships. And I think it is, we would all agree, that it is essential that an agreement which is acceptable to all sides is reached, and I'm sure that it's going to be because let us not forget that we're not in business to remain in perpetual opposition if we are to achieve proper rights for employees, which have been so reduced by the Conservatives if we are to save the welfare state, which is now so under threat if we are to obtain decent health and education services, which are also under threat if we are to create a strong economy and a strong recovery which provides the jobs which we so desperately need then we must win power! And with your help, a modernized Labour Party will be in a very strong position to turn out this disastrous government working together, we shall win, we can win and we shall! Thank you very much indeed. Thank you very much indeed, Giles, for that address. Er, colleagues, before we turn to a period of, er, rule amendments and general motions, could I just advise congress that a pair of spectacles have been handed in er, Vision Express, look like, well they could be ladies or gents, multi-sexual these days, colleagues. Very nice pair and a very nice brown case. I understand they were, they're better than the general secretary's anyway. Yours colleague. Hi . Good morning. Now young lady, what can I do for you today? tablets. Some tablets. Right. I need . Still the tablets? The , aye. For the ? Aye. I've changed my address Dr , I'm at a wee pensioner's house . Ah I was just gonna ask you that. Mhm. Wh where are you now, Gracie? Er Street. .Wee pensioner's house Mhm. Yeah. Well Saves you a lot of cleaning in the big house. That's right. That's right because you lose the notion. Aye.. And my insurance line . do a line as well. There we go. That'll keep you right with these folk. Right thanks. No bother at all. Thanks very much Dr . Look after yourself now. Cheerio now. . Erm can you tell me where you were born and when please. Street, off Road in nineteen erm let's see. You're eighty nine so eighteen ninety six would it be? Four. Eighteen ninety four. That's it eighteen ninety four was when I was born. Can you remember anything about the house you were born in? Oh it was an ordinary er street row of houses. Terraced houses? , they're all attached you know. Just all two up and two down was where I was born and er I was er christened at Church by Canon . Did you have any brothers and sisters? I had two brothers. Were they older or younger than you? One was two years older than me and the other was five years younger than me. And they've er they've both died and one was killed in the First World War. And the other one er died at home. After the Second World War. But they both were in the services. In the First World War? Yes, and er my younger brother was in the Second World War. Can you remember much about the house, how, how long did you live there for? Oh I should say we'd lived there ten years. And it was there that my father started his er lace factory. He er he used to work from four in the morning till ten o'clock at night and he used to doss in the factory, didn't come home, Where was the factory? The factory was in er Str , Street, Factory in Street, up off Road. And he'd er worked himself up from one lace machine until he'd got twelve. And then er the the the lace trade he he worked on, when women wore high collars, boned high collars and he made the little narrow edging lace about like that and it was goffered so it made a frill round the face. And he er he'd made all that lace, well then instead of him going in the First World War and making the net which was used you see his lace trade all went. Well then he started at , in a factory there at with er more modern machines, but the factory was too cold, a factory has to be a certain heat to work the lace machines properly. And he came back to er and started again and er he'd just er er the big manufacturer engineering er people made us lace machines then and they started him off with three, and he'd paid off one and part of the other when he died. And it was the First World War that killed him, he had a brain damage, you know a stroke. And died. Was he actually fighting in the First World War or? My father, no, no he was too old then, no my brothers both were but er. No me elder brother was, not me second brother, that was the Second World War he was in. Me elder brother was in the First World War and he er he got married and er she was a flighty sort of girl and she wasn't attending to er Mabel properly, the little girl, she had a girl and a boy. And er she asked us to have her. He did before he went away, asked her if we'd look after her and we had her until she was seven years old. We brought her up practically. I made all her clothes. I remember making her a little black satin coat and Dutch bonnet with things sticking out and all edged with lace and it was all er black satin and underneath the bonnet was er pleated er blue chiffon. Did your mother make your clothes when you were a child? My clothes? Yes she did. Yes she made my clothes. Until I was old enough to make my own. And er I started er with a doll, my father bought me a doll and it taught me how to er dress me. And they used to buy me new material to encourage me and I learnt how to sew from that. Was this something you did after school in the evenings? Well then I went to a private school on Road, two maiden ladies kept that, and we were taught to er walk properly, sit properly, dance, music, learnt the piano there, and embroider, and erm chiefly the educational side of schooling was almost non-existent. What age were you when you went there? Well I was there pretty well until I, fourteen, until I left school. Did you go there from five? I went, no, no, I went there from er I think I should be somewhere about ten. Where did you go before then? Well er School, but I never went to school not un , at five. As far as I can remember that. I've never seen, I I only remember schooling from this school. And I remember going to er Road School for a month and we caught ringworms there. And er we left and we never went back there, that's when I went to the private school. And my brothers both went to er, a headmaster from the high school set up on his own and they both went there, and that was at the corner of Avenue on Road. Cos we lived at the top of the second hill, opposite erm Doctor s er house, the famous eye surgeon. That photograph that I've got where it's all snowy's his house and we lived just opposite. When did you move up there? Ooh I don't know what age I'd be when we went up there. You say you were about ten. I should say about ten. And was that a much bigger house than the one in, on Street Oh yes that was ordinary er row of houses,the one at was a detached house, stood in it's own grounds. And I remember four stone steps led up to the front door, and we'd what they called a parlour then. And then my parents had a big er lean- to built at the side of the house and we had a full size billiard table in there. And it, they used to entertain ever such a lot my parents did. What did they do? Have parties and Enter Ooh and we had some marvellous parties. And there was a, two friends of theirs who were courting and he'd got a pimple on the end of his nose. And from that he was king of the pimps. And then we had this man that used to come from India and he was called the Viceroy of India. And they'd all got er status symbols you see and it was quite a ceremonial thing that they used to have. And we had marvellous Christmas parties too. And we had a house full of people at Christmas time. Were these people who were staying at the house? We had er they were sleeping all over everywhere at Christmas time, on the floor,seem to remember dozens of people then and we kept two maids then and a gardener. At that time. And did they all live in the house as well. Yes. Where wold the maids sleep? Did they they had sep They slept in the same bedroom as me because we were er limited to bedroom space but we had girls because we were doing such a lot of entertaining, there was a lot of work. What were they like the two the maids, were they young girls? we never thought anything about it you know. They were not er they were old enough to to work, they were much older than me. In fact when I er er periods started it was them that told me all about it not me mother and didn't never think then about st er sex or anything, not a thing, I was as innocent as day was born when I was eighteen. the difference of children of today. Were you quite, you were friendly with the maids then, was it like Oh very friendly with them, yes. I tell you they did more for me than my own mother did. Yes they were very friendly. What sort of work did the maids do in the house? Did they do everything? They did everything, yes, cooking and all the lot. One cooked and the other one house worked. Mother didn't do any. What did your mother do then? Just a lady of leisure. Er What would she go shopping and things like that? Er every night they used to play cards and when I was eighteen my father made me learn cards. He made me play cards, I'd played ordinary auction bridge at that time. But he made me do it, I didn't want to do it, but he he he made me do it. So we used to play auction bridge every night. Not as it's played today though. It's played totally different today, ours was quite mediocre to how it's played today. Were you always included in your parents parties even from when you were younger ? Oh yes, yes, yes. We and we had some marvellous Christmas parties because we used to play all sorts of games. And I remember one game in particular it always stuck in me mind. Somebody used to sit on the carpet at one end of the room with a walking stick and a chalk mark in front of him and the contestants used to have to come up to him and try to rub the marking out and he used to rap the hands with his walking stick. I can remember that game ever so well. It must have been a bit painful. Well you used to be as cute as they were, you used to watch fingers, you didn't get them rattled. Yes you were just as cute as they were. Did it have a name, that game? If it did I don't remember it. What about any other games? yes, we used to play consequences. What, with a bit of paper? Yes you know. And pass them round and everybody used to write differently. Y that still is a good game to play today. You can have a real old giggle at that. Real fun. But er I don't remember any other games. We used to paly croquet on the lawn. We'd a full size lawn with a croquet and badminton. We used to paly badminton on the lawn. It was a full size lawn. Where exactly was the house? It was on Road? On Road between Grove and Park entrance. Just there. Can you tell me a little bit more about this school that you went to? You said it was run by two maiden ladies Maiden ladies What was there name? I couldn't even tell you that now. I can remember the butcher that was a butcher on Road. His sons went there. It was So a mixed school boy and girl . Oh it was mixed Yes mixed school. And we used to do these er pictures that u used to be on er grey and blue paper and we used to, with white paint we used to make a sort of anything there and then with erm charcoal sticks we used to draw on it. Houses and animals and all sorts of things. We did that we used to make some lovely pictures, and I never saved any. I've not the foggiest idea where they were now. But er I'd two that I used to have on the wall at home I can remember. But they've gone with time. No interest in them. What other things did you do at this school? Embroidery embroidery and then they taught us French. We learnt French there. And English and simple arithmetic. Was it a big school then? How many people would you say I remember that I had piano lessons there you see and dancing lessons there. Deportment there. How many people went to the school roughly would you say ? Oh I should say there'd be about thirty pupils there, mixed boys and girls. So were the classes mixed? Did you have subjects together? Oh yes we the boys were taught along with the girls, yes we were, we were all on, just in the one room. Yes just in the one room. Was it near where you lived? Yes well it was er we lived at the top of the second hill and this school was at the bottom. Between Street and er Street. Which the council school was on Road. Big council school. And did you say your brothers didn't go there though, they went to a different school? Well they went to a boys school you see afterwards. Th this headmaster from the er from the er posh school erm I forget it's name. The high school? High school. he set up on his own you see and my brothers went there. And you you were at this school till you were fourteen? Yes until I left. And what, did you have nay thoughts of what you would do when you left school? No didn't go any where at all just stayed at home. And then after about two years when Father le realized that the lace trade was going he said, must to put to a trade. Because er we don't know what's going to happen and she must be able to earn her own living. So they put me to millinery. Well we used to start to make hats form a coil of wire. We built the shapes up, and it was the the high class shop in , was two sisters on Gate, that er we went to sh er sch er shop and er we used to make these shapes from the coil of wire, these'll be very nippers that I used, there and still use them today ever so useful. But those are what I used to make the wire shapes. And erm then we used to have straw and inch wide by the yard. And we used to stitch round and round and round making the shape on this wire. And then we used to trim it and er a hat there made of just the straw with a band and bow was over three pound which was a lot of money in those days. You used to er , the Goose Fair people, always came and bought half a dozen hats. And er they were always er it was never an open shop, they were always sold by appointment. And er they used to trade up and down this room, Miss I'll be wearing such and such a dress and it'll be such and such a colour and er then we used to make the hat for it. And they al always used to order half a dozen hats. And as an apprentice you, I was a year there for nothing, a ye , half a year for half a crown, half a year for five shillings, and at the end of five years I was earning fourteen shillings. And er in the apprentice we used to have to go round the shops on the town matching their er material in velvets and ribbons and satin for making their hats of, as well as the straw we made them from material as well. And I used to trail round all these shops. What exactly did you do when you went round the shops? You had to collect? Collect patterns, take them back and the head used to pick and then we used to have to go and buy what they wanted you see, the amount of material they wanted. Can you remember any of the customers who came to the shop? What sort of people apart from the Only the fair people. And used to have a er shop in erm Street selling sheet music. They used to er trade. And then this butcher on Road, I remember they used to trade. So what what hours did you work at this this hat shop? Nothing only making hats. Yeah, but how how long was you working day? When did you start and when did you finish? Eight in the morning till eight at night. Five days a week? Yes. And did you have any breaks for for lunch or anything? We used to have an hour and a quarter fro lunch, half an hour for tea, and we used to er have to get the principal's tea ready and in the midmorning they always had tea made of milk. I remember boiling the milk and pouring it on the tea leaves. They always had it. And er the bread and butter for their tea had to be cut wafer thin. I was clever at that. They always had me cutting this er bread and butter. What would you actually do then, you said you sat round a table, you told me about that, the table with the white cloth. Yes. There used to be a long table and the head used to sit at the end of this table and so to see that you didn't leave off working she used to get the table cloth and always be pulling this table straight. And be looking round. This and and looking round to see that you were working. Were you allowed to talk to the other girls or anything? You didn't have time to do much talking you were so busy sewing. It was real graft. How many other girls worked there, round the table ? Oh I should er I should think there'd be about ten. Ten of us. Cos it was a long table with a white cloth on. I remember this white cloth. How did you get the the apprenticeship in the first place? Did your father arrange it for you? I don't know how they came to to send me there. Whether it was advertised or what but how I came to be there I wouldn't know. Don't remember that. How do you like that? Oh it's beautiful. helps me to sort of see how the lesson's going. Right. So that's maths is it. How do you feel about last week's? Erm it was good, I made a lot of progress in it. . Compared to usual. Yeah. Yeah. That that's how I felt, that you were getting into it, you were understanding how the bits tied together Yeah. and making sense of it. So you're feeling happier with it? Yeah a lot better. Okay. Erm what you done since last time? Erm I did that work you asked me to do. Great. Great. And did it make sense? Sort of yeah. I was a bit Okay. it it got away a bit you know and and This this is what I'm saying last time that if you'll work through it, understand it, Oh yeah I can do that, Yeah. but if you if you if that's all you do then in eve even a week's time but definitely in a few months' time it's just gone. You'll just have this vague memory that, Ooh I could do that once, now where d how do I get started? Yeah. How do I get into it? So you need the practice. Erm been tending to concentrate on specific things which you know stand a good chance of being on the paper, and even if they're not will help you with others. So how much of it did you understand? Erm Which bits were you happy with? the positive and the negative. Okay. Erm So from your table you could find out Yeah. there's a good chance that one of the positives will go with one of those negative Yeah. and you can make something out of it. Right. Now what what were the bits that were a bit tricky then? Erm just remembering say I had to put four O Hs with N H, I was sometimes I was getting it right sometimes I was getting it wrong and stuff like that . Right, so for the for the diagram It was just where I was putting the four I wasn't sure about. Yeah. The diagram was okay. What was physically happening you could relate to that and you got that sorted out. Now how do you put it down on paper? What's the notation? That Yeah. that's the only problem, okay? Yeah. So you're understanding it. You could explain that to me. Yeah. Yeah, you could say what it looked like and what was happening and then say, Well I'm not quite sure what the convention is for writing them Right. down. Well that's fine. I mean the convention is each of these ex I mean what you could have, you could put brackets round everything. . If you think of maths you can you can put brackets in where you don't need them can't you? Yeah. So you could put there. If I wanted to do something like three add six I could put brackets round the three and round the six and it wouldn't make any difference. Erm if I put two times brackets three add six it does make a difference. Mhm. Yeah? Mm. It makes a big difference. Well it's the same with this. If you put something like N H and then O H four well the convention is that when it's a suffix stuff a subscript and a suffix below the line there and just after it,it only applies to the last element. Yeah. Usually mean the last letter cos most of the elem well a lot of the le the elements have one letter. So that would just be four Hs and one O. Right. To make it mean that you've got four Os as well you put it in brackets. So with the maths it's like it's the difference between four times O H or just sort of O plus four H four O plus H. So anything that you've got four of put a bracket round it. Right. Erm if we had something like erm N H four and we had something with a valency of eight, say, which is impossible Yeah. but we had one with eight so we'd have we'd have the whole thing there twice. So how many Hs would you have in that weird thing? Er eight. Yeah. And how many Ns? One. No eight. Two. Two. So Yeah. anything inside your brackets multiplied by what you've got outside just the way you would have two times brackets three add six close brackets. Okay? Yeah. So it's the same same with this. It's just a slightly different convention but Mm. basically it is maths. It's telling us how many sets of different things we've got. Right. So let's have a look what we've got here. So got N A positive O H negative N H four positive and O H negative now what's going on here? You've got an alkali trying to react with an alkali. Is this is this what you're supposed to be doing? Well that's No wonder you had trouble. Is that what I wrote er right What that's what I wrote but what I said was, Each of the acids reacting with this starting Ah with hydrochloric Okay? One. These these are two these are two common alkalis . Alkalis. Okay there's N A O H which is what? Er sodium hydroxide. Okay. And N H four O H which is? Nitrogen hydroxide no no er Have a look in the tables what N H four is. N H four ammoni Ammonium. ammonium. Okay. N H three on its own ammonia when it's combined with something else it's N H four ion and it's ammonium. Like erm chlorine on its own chlorine combine it with sodium it becomes a chloride. Right. So let's have a look at that now. You shouldn't have any problem with so you've tried there with which acid do you want to use? Hydrochloric's probably the simplest so have a go with that first because then you can see the pattern. Er hydrochloric acid is erm erm no erm ? It's got Erm hydrochloric what does that sound like? Hydrogen and chlorine. Okay. H C L that was it yeah Right I couldn't remember. Okay great. So it's H C L and C L's got a valency of one so that's nicely balanced one C L with one H plus. Erm now you've done that quite a few times before N A O so do the N A O H first and you should be able to whiz through that. Yes. erm So then you can work out which are positive and which are Right. Hydrogen's the one we tend to treat as a a metal. Yeah. Hydrogen is positive. Right. Chlorine is a negative. Er Sodium is a positive. Hydroxide is You've got one here there are some on this Yeah er negative. Right Yeah. So So most of these are one positive and one negative. So the hydrogen with go with hydroxide. Okay making? Erm so that's H two O plus this two H dow there. Yeah where does the two go? Down there. Right. Okay. Two goes down there so it's two what two whatever letter came before it. Yeah. Two Hs and one O. And on the C L we add the so yeah we get sodium C L is a negative N A is is a positive how many that's spare one spare Okay. transfer that's N A C L. Yeah that's it. That's H two O and S O you write the equation out for that now? That's N A C L Erm the sort of Erm. from what you start with from what it gives. From the hydrochloric acid and the Oh right. H C L plus N A O H is equal to N A C L Right yeah. plus H two O. Right great. So what's the sort of general term for this, this is an Hydrogen chloride. Yeah er what about this then? Sodium hydroxide. And it's an example of what? An alkali. Okay this is? Er acid. So you can just write under it acid plus acid plus gives equals N A C L is a alkali. Erm No it's not it's a salt. Good it's a salt. And you know what and water. Right and that's a general reaction that happens with virtually any acid and any alkali acid and any alkali salt and water. Er so have another go now at a similar sort of reaction. Same acid this time use a different alkali. Use ammonium hydroxide. Which is ammonium N H four usually put the acid first Right the acid and what acid gonna use? So use the same one. So H C L plus ammonium hydroxide that's N H Now it's got four spare ones and the hydroxide has got Er whoa whoa whoa now it's N H four right Yeah. so put the put the four on for N H four. Now if you look it up on the table let's have a look at erm say calcium double positive. Right zinc double positive this this type of ion Triple positive. is a triple positive. But N H four so it's a single positive. Oh right. Okay? Yeah. So It's four hydrogen with the Four hydrogen one nitrogen all their bonds got get together and there's one the result is one positive bond left over. Right. Okay you're not too bothered about what's going on internally So it's N H four O H So N H four O H because it's it's just one positive on that whole N H four cluster and we we think of that as an entity. That's a positive that's a negative er that's a positive that's a negative. Mhm. So the positive the negative Yeah that's good. and the negative the positive. That's it tha I like the way you did it because that's a good one to do first the H positive and the O H negative are going to give you the water. Now what are you left over with? it's a nice nice that for working it through. So that put the equals underneath so H so the chlorine and the N H four chlorine has got one spare one Right. and so's N H four so it's N H four C L. Right. Small L's don't forget. Oh yeah. Plus Okay so just write the equation out again. No need to write acid plus alkali Okay. Now try do you remember the formula for sulphuric acid? Sulphuric acid erm Yeah I will do now. Okay or nitric if that's easier whichever one Yeah. comes first. Erm N A O H no that's sodium hydroxide The ones ending in O H Yeah. are the alkalis Yeah. Okay. The acids all start with I know it it's just that with an H Yeah. well you know we put the H first. H two S O four. Brilliant. Okay? Yeah. So H two S O four right before we go any further with that H two S O four how many Hs in it? Two. And how many Ss? One. Good. One S. If we'd put brackets round Four Os. the whole lot and then a four down there it would have been four but four Os only one S. Right. Okay. Plus erm plus you could do ammonium erm now let's have a calcium erm hydroxide. Calcium that's C A two plus C A and that's a double positive Right so so I'm gonna need two hydroxide. Two hydroxides cos they're just a single negative. Which is O H. O H now how many of those do you want? In brackets. Great. And there are two. Right right. you got the the O H is the bit you want twice so write it down put the brackets round it and then the two. Right. Hydrogen is positive. Right. So that's positive. The sulphur sulphoxide Sulphate. sulphate is a double negative. Yeah sulphoxide was a good sort of And then I'm I'm a bit Any of the 'ates any of the 'ates have got oxygen in Yeah. in as well. So nitrate has got nitrogen and oxygen in it. The calcium is a double positive. And the O H is a that'll be a double negative cos there's two of them No Well now no no no no cos they're joined together that'll be a single negative . O H O H is is a single negative but keep it inside the bracket that's it and don't forget the two applies to everything inside there so Yeah. we'll finish up with two negatives one from each O H. So hydrogen Right. reacts with the O H. Yeah. And the S O four reacts with C A the calcium. So hydrogen there's two of this hydroxide. Two hydroxides so if you just write twice just write O H negative and then another O H negative. Yeah H two er no yeah I need H two O H mm no two H two O. Brilliant. Two H two O yeah. What we've got if you write them out separately Yeah. just to show what's happening. What have we got we've got two lots of H positive okay there's one H positive and there's another H positive. Yeah. They're two separate it's H positive times two. What have we got here O H negative times two. Two lots of O H negative. Right now we're just back onto what we were doing here. One H positive one O H negative gives you the H two O we've got two lots of that so we're going to get two H two O. Mhm. And you've even and you've even balanced the equation as you've done it. And then what's left over. Right. Two H two O and now we've got the sulphate and the calcium. Mhm. And they're both double negative and double positive . That's right. So it's C A S O four. . So that's that's something that you've never done before an equation you've st perhaps never even heard of calcium sulphate. But just from that little table which you'll get used to as work through them, you can work what would happen. So you can Mm. work out what would happen for any of the any of the acids with any of the alkalis . Mm. Erm do you want to try another one? Yeah yeah . Yeah. It's the the the time to do another one is when you think, Oh yeah there's no problem here I've definitely got this. then it's a good idea just to do another one and make sure. Okay sh so erm let's try mm say stay with erm sulphuric acid, so sulphuric acid plus erm Sulphuric er yeah. Sulphuric acid plus what shall we have out of this lot. Erm how about ammonium erm hydroxide. H H two S O four Yeah. plus what was it again? erm Ammonium hydroxide. Ammonium N H four er O H Right. I know that's a positive that's a double negative the N H four a positive and that is a negative. So again the H two and the O H Right. make er H two O Okay. H O plus What have you got left over? the S O four and the N H four that's a double negative and that's a single positive it's going to be two N H four S O four no erm let me think about it again er what's wrong with S O four N H two N H four. It's you you were Yeah. you were right the first time. Right. So it's N H four Two N H four I said. You're going to have two lots of N H four right. Let's let's say we were doing Right now what do you mean by that? What does this two apply to? Erm the N H four so brackets Let's with the two afterwards. Right brilliant. So S O four bracket N H four two. Right so it's the right way round N H four N H four twice so N H four two S O four. S O four. Right. Erm when you put two H two O what did you mean?two H two O wherever it was there it is. Two waters. Yeah and how many hydrogens all together? Er one oh no two four hydrogens. And how many oxygens? Two. Right so if you put the number in front, it's as though you've got brackets around the whole lot. I mean Mm. really you should have brackets round the whole lot but we don't bother to put them. Yeah. should do it's a bit sloppy in the notation convention. So if you just wanted two hydrogens when you put it down here. If you just wanted two N H fours you'd put it down here. Okay? Yeah. So I think you've definitely got that Right. very well on that. Erm nitrates, sulphates and what else any other 'ates that you've heard of? Erm nitrates, sulphates Okay now just stick with those . I'm just think I I'm just thinking. Don't worry. Er There's there's one in there. Yeah I'm just thinking . another ate. And it's not it's not the same as these as these it's not Chlorate. Chlorate yes there is a chlorate. Erm there's one down there. Carbonate. Carbonate which is not quite the salt not the sort of thing you get from an acid normally like sulphuric, sulphuric acid give you the sulphate. What's the special thing about carbonates and acids? I mean is a carbonate erm an alkali? Erm no. What happens when you drip an acid on a carbonate? Don't know. Do you know any carbonates? Are you warming up? I'll just I'll just So what happens when you drip acid onto a carbonate? Do you know any carbonates. Not really no. Well I probably do but. Okay er have you come across calcium carbonate? Yeah. What's that look like? Erm Is it normally a solid or a liquid or what? a liquid? No no erm it's a solid. Okay, what sort of rocks have you come across? Erm erm marble chippings. Marble chippings okay so what happens when you drip acid onto marble chippings? Er you told me last week remember but I can't remember. Er have you ever seen it done? No. Er I may have been absent or something . Right okay. What often happens when you drip acids onto things? They react. React maybe it's carbonates they Effervesce Yeah effervesce they fizz a bit. What's happening? Er they're producing gas they're giving off Okay what gas? Carbon dioxide. Right. Mm. So acid plus carbonate gives? Er carbon dioxide. Right and probably a few other things. Yeah. Let's see if we can work out what it is. So let's pick a nice simple acid. The choice is yours. Erm Which is the easiest one to play with? H C L. Yeah H C L good choice plus and we'll pick an easy carbonate, er we'll pick the one that we normally use calcium carbonate. Which is C A erm and carbonate is C O three C A C O now that's a positive negative the calcium is a double positive double nega positive yeah. And the C O three is a double negative. Right. Right hydrogen and the carbonate so there's going to be H brackets two C O three yeah? Okay well maybe maybe. It's a good try. Erm the chlorine and the calcium it's a double positive Er Ah you remembering anything? Go on carry on I could write two H C O three Erm well what's the difference between H two C O three and Er two H C O three. that's two of H C O three . Right right H two is just two of H. Right so there i they're not the same compound at all. You can't just No no . swap one for the other. So what's what's happening with the chlorine then? Er two C A yeah. Okay. Now we usually write the metal first. Yeah. So we'd have calcium chloride Yeah so I'll rearrange it Okay how would you write that? Just rearrange that. Right Okay well that's quite possibly what does happen. Now go to the C L, it's just one element, we don't need the brackets it wouldn't be wrong to write the brackets round it but we don't usually bother. No. You can just write C A C L two Right. for that. Now this thing H two C O three erm so you've tried the reaction, you've tried these different compounds Mm. pull 'em apart shove 'em back together again see what you can make. And you've made this thing, hydrogen carbonate Yeah. and calcium chloride. The calcium chloride's definitely going to get formed. But we decided that you get carbon dioxide. Oh yeah. Right so maybe this is an intermediate stage, we don't know but we know carbon dioxide comes out of it. What would happen if you took carbon dioxide out of this? What' do Mhm. you know the formula for carbon dioxide? Er di is two isn't it? Right good. So it's carbon which is C Right. C O two. Okay so just re write C O two underneath it. C O two. Now if you took C O two out of that, what would you have left? You're left with H two O er so it's Right. H two O plus C O three plus C O two . Right Yeah. Yeah. plus C A C L two. No you don't need the brackets Yeah. it's better without the brackets they'd probably accept it with. Okay so this was worked out not really knowing anything about what's going on here we've got that and that go together what would happen well pretty good bet that you'd get this calcium chloride cos that seems to form pretty easily. Mhm. the other reactions we've had. calcium hydroxide hydrogen chloride you get calcium chloride formed and you got this thing well it's quite likely that this does form initially, but it doesn't last very long and it's not very stable and it Right. splits up splits up into carbon dioxide and water. Mm. Erm and that's it we've sorted out the reaction. So just going back to these 'ates, sulphate has got sulphur and oxygen in it, a carbonate has got what? Er carbon and and oxygen. A nitrate has got? Nitrogen and oxygen. Now a chloride Chlorine and Just the the metal and the chlorine so sodium chloride would just be N A and then C L. Chlorate would have Chlorate yeah chlorine and oxygen. That's it so there is a system behind all these weird names Yeah. there's a bit of a system. Erm once you sort of crack the code and get into it, things you've never heard of when they come up you when you know the system you think, Oh well I know what I know what it means by that. So if someone said erm bromate or bromide say what's the difference between calcium bromide and calcium bromate, what the difference be? Bromide is just the bromine with the Yeah. metal, bromate is bromine with the oxygen. Good so it might be it might be something like B R O three or B R O or B R O two something like but it would have oxygen to go with it. So you're building up now I think a good understanding of the er terminology Right. and a good understanding of the the systems and putting these numbers in the equations. Yeah. So as you feel happier with that, you'll b more able to play with them. But unless you do play them forget it again . exactly, it'll be cos we looked at this last week as you said at the end what happens dripping acid onto onto chips now the things to know about acids,bases and salts. A metal plus an acid what happens? A metal and plus an acid. Drip metal onto an acid I'm sorry acid onto a metal . Right. think that might be a bit difficult er It might be a bit awkward if you it might be highly reactive if you dropped molten metal onto it. Erm it reacts and produces carbon dioxide. Mm would it, no a metal with an acid. It's a metal erm Erm it effervesces. Right so there's a gas given off which is? Carbon dioxide Hydrogen. Okay right so there's a s there's a system to what's going on with the acids and it's not just one acid like hydrochloric most of the acids will do it some of them do it very readily some of them you have to get the conditions right often you have to get the temperature high to make it to make the reaction go but a metal plus an acid erm there's a typical one zinc H two S O four gives zinc sulphate and the hydrogen. Yeah. And you can think of that pretty easily if you look at your table erm just write down with the charges on the the ions what H two S O four looks like. H two S O four. right erm what's the charge on that H? Positive. Right good. Er double negative. Yeah great how did you work that out? Er the Hs are positive. Right. Yeah and there's two of it so that Good so that was I like that because you worked it out you didn't look it with table you Yeah. Good. So it's H two S O four plus erm a metal erm chose zinc then shall we try it no we'll use zinc. Yeah. have you got it in here? No. No. Okay we'll use erm Yeah zinc ion Right. Z N two plus. Right. thought it should be in there cos it's normally Okay now all that happens here if you if you think of it going back to the picture with the the magnets or the electrostatic charges or or bonds whatever you like to think of it . Yeah. You've got an S O four with two bonds on it and it's holding on to a hydrogen Yeah. in each one. And the zinc comes along and pushes the hydrogen out, it says, Hang on I want that sulphate. Yeah. and it displaces the hydrogen and that we that's why we describe it the the zinc displaces the hydrogen from the acid. So zinc sulphate gets formed the zil the zinc just goes in in place of that H two. So it becomes Z N S O four. And the two Hs that got pushed out H two yeah? Yeah. H two and the charge erm now ah ah hang on yeah this is this one is a bit tricky because that is not a zinc ion that's zinc just on its own so it's just Z N. Right. Erm it wants to be a Z N double positive and go with the sulphate Yeah. if you like so it pinches the two positive charges off the hydrogen cos in these equations the charges must must balance as well so that if you just cross the double positive out you need to you can't write it in but you need to remember that it wants to become a double positive given Yeah. the chance. So the zinc comes along pushes the hydrogen out takes its two charges off it as well Right. and you're left with H two. So that's the first sort of reaction with with acids. A metal plus an acid and most of the metals and most of the acids'll give you hydrogen. Some of them you remember the table we had a long time ago showing the reactivity of different elements, particularly the metals when we were looking at metals. Erm some metals are much more reactive than others. I mean some some metals with an acid a fairly weak acid will give you hydrogen, some metals will give you hydrogen just with s water, or with steam. And some of them it's it's hard to get them to go so but in general any of the fairly reactive acids and any of the fairly reactive metals they're going to give you a salt and hydrogen. So metal plus acid gives you a salt and hydrogen. And you can do that. Then we've got a base plus an acid, what's the difference again between a base and an alkali? A base Mm. is neutral no a base Is an alkali a base? Yeah. Yeah okay. A base So what's so special about an alkali that's not quite a special about a base. Erm erm An alkali is a base but a base isn't an alkali. Hey? Yeah. Erm an alkali is contained in the base family but it's got a special property. Erm It's a fairly simple physical property actually but they're they're soluble. Right. So Mm. But this thing we've been doing with an acid and an alkali, most of the bases will do it as well, Yeah. so let's try that one. Now the base is erm most of the oxides are bases the metal oxides so what would magnesium oxide look like? And what's going to happen if we get it to react with H two S O four? So try that one H two S O four plus magnesium oxide what's that going to be? M G Oxide Is? So that's a double positive a double negative that's a positive double negative so H two and the O so that's gonna be that'll be a double positive because there's two of it wouldn't it? It's it's well Yeah. Erm You wouldn't write it like that but you'd write it as a single positive okay now because there's a two But because there's two of it down there you've got two Yeah. negative two positive That's hooks on it H two O plus S O four erm that's a double negative so the goes there so magnesium M G S O four Let's have a look. Oh that's a shame. What? was going to say check it in the book but I gave you wrong one. Never mind. Okay I'll do the other one Okay check it yeah okay try the other one then. Erm an easier one in fact. Erm magnesium oxide with hydrochloric acid. M G oxide which is O right with Hydrochloric acid. H C L and that's a double positive Right. double negative. Good. That's a single positive Right. that's a negative. Right. Right. And what's going to happen what was the first way you can see. Magnesium chloride Well try the the one you tried in the first equation Oh yeah. we did. Oxygen and a hydrogen. Right so what have we get we've got one O negative So that'll be H O erm two O. Yeah that's the H two O. Where did the two Hs come from you've only got one there? Er you'll add another. Okay put a put a two in front now. And what's that going to give you? Two that's going to become a double. So it's going to give you two Hs and two C Ls . Two C Ls so that'll be H two O plus magnesium chlorine so that's a M G C L two Brilliant go on see if that's well I'm saying so see if that's what it gives in the book. M G O It just says it's aqueous but but I mean when it when it when it happens Yeah. because magnesium chloride is soluble it'll be dissolved in the water and you'll finish up with a solution of magnesium chloride. That's it so metal and acid gives what? A metal and an acid gives erm er water and This is the one that doesn't give water. Oh yeah er What did the zinc do to the hydrogen? Carbon dioxide and Hang on hang on metal and acid say think of the zinc and which acid was it we used H two S O four, what did the zinc do to the hydrogen? Er it pinched its good go on it what did it do? Right it pinched its positives its electrons. Right it pinched its place and it pinched its charge, it displaced it it pinched it out of its nice cosy relationship So you get hydrogen. and it liberated the hydrogen okay. So that's an acid plus a metal, now an acid plus a base which is this one we've just done, a metal oxide the metal oxides are bases, er you can think of them as being alkaline, we call it basic but very very similar sort of thing to alkaline okay so what happens with a base and an acid? With a base and an acid Well what happens with an acid and an alkali? Er acid and alkali er it gives a water and sal. Right great and what happens what seems to be happening with a base and an acid or an acid and a base? Erm gives off hydrogen ah no gives off It gives you well this is erm this is one that you did here. It gives off water. This is one you did here yeah you get water and? Er er the metal chloride magnesium chloride in this case in this case you got a chloride if you'd used sodium you would have got sodium chloride which is? Er Oh right salt. So this is magnesium chloride is also a? Er salt. Right so we tried couldn't eat it though. acid and a base Mm. acid and a base and we get salt and water, try alkali and a base you get salt and water so they're very similar reaction, the base and the acid and the alkali and the acid. They're the same sort of thing they're neutralizing each other. And the other one with the carbonate what happened then? The one you Er. worked out yourself. The carbon which one was that? erm cos there's so many of them now I'm getting a bit I know and I'm trying to pile them up now and let you see the patterns so these The carbonate I can't remember what it is I'm getting confused I okay Right you mentioned it a few minutes ago you suggested that this thing was formed. Which one wa I I can't remember what I sa I was saying a f a lot of things a few minutes ago . Right okay okay carbonate. What's the er what's the symbol for carbonate? Er C C C C C O? Yeah C O? Two. Three. Three yeah. C O three and what did you take out of that? An O no C ah Let's go back to where you did it here. What you did was you tried H C L plus calcium carbonate. Yeah. Okay and you sorted this out very nicely what was going to happen and what you'd have left over. Right so you got your calcium chloride out and then you got this H two C O three. Which we said do left over. Erm er carbon dioxide. Right so you looked at this H C L plus C A C O three quite messy. Yeah. What can we get out of this? Mm can't see any water there can't see any H and O H. Yeah. But there's our old friend calcium chloride right. Yeah. You take calcium chloride out, what have you got left? You've got this H two C O three. Yeah. Hi. Thanks. Hi some refreshment. Lovely. Don't tell me you don't like them. There's not a lot is there? Do you what more? You've you've been scratching then? Oh useless. Come on Charlie out. go on out out Out. out. he said he can't hear you with that on Yeah he can. Right. Got an ear problem? Erm well he split his tail the end of it. Yeah I saw his tail was bandaged. So we had the end cut off and to stop him ripping the bandages off we Ah. wrapped it up. Mm. The vet wrapped it up but he also had a little thing on his ear so he cut that out as well and he's gonna wear the collar to stop him scratching his ear and to stop him biting his tail. cos he's been in a fight has he No erm it was just it was just like a little er spot on his ear and the vet sent it off to find out what it was Mm. and he cut it out and stitched it up so. Right. Okay meanwhile back at the carbonates so you've sorted out your calcium chloride and you've got this horrible looking thing H two C O three. Right. But we know this is marble chippings you know you were getting this carbon dioxide off. How could you tell it was carbon dioxide what tests c could you do to it? Erm if it's carbon dioxide it'll react with lime water wouldn't it. Yeah. Make clear lime water cloudy. Right that's it makes it milky. And it will put out a glowing splint or something. So if there w well we've got to get carbon dioxide out of this somehow cos we know carbon dioxide is given off. So you're doing a bit of detective work here, what must be happening in this? Well let's take carbon dioxide out of that and what do you get? Well out of that you've got all the makings there of carbon dioxide and water. So Mm. gives us the other thing that happens with them that er an acid plus a carbonate gives you carbon dioxide as well as a salt and water. Right. And that's that's about it for the acids. It also brings in the bases the the basic the bases and the alkalis. If you know that lot just there, you can probably get through about ooh eighty percent of your chemistry. Yeah. At least seventy five percent you can work out well what have we got we got an acid or a base or a carbonate or what, and does it fit any of the I mean there aren't many patterns, there's metal acid, what does that give? Metal and acid. Yeah. Er carbon dioxide no er oh I'm getting confused now there's that many of them that I know I know I know but I want to just keep going round the lot. Metal and an acid It might help if you write them. Nah, I don't think it is I l it's just remembering they're all different and I Right they're all different but they're similar enough to be a bit confusing. So right okay okay It effervesces with it and it gives off Oh shit Okay right Can I look back and No no no no no work it out Oh fucking hell. work it out. It's getting too confusing I've got to try it cos if I just yeah yeah no no you've keep on working it out I won't remember it. So you've got what have we got we've got a metal the one we used was zinc Yeah. Z N plus an acid let's use H C L H C L. and what happened remember what happened what what did well what what's going to get formed with zinc and chlorine about? Zinc chloride. Right okay. Take zinc chloride out of that take the zinc and the chlorine away and what have you got left with? Hydrogen. Okay. Yeah. So you didn't remember it you worked it out. Now you you're very keen on remembering everything you can't remember everything Yeah because if I work it out I'll just know that i it made so and so but I won't know that it gave off that I'll just remember that it made like zinc chloride or something I won't remember if i I'll just remember the symbol I won't even remember the symbols but I'll just know that I can work it out if I needed to. Not I won't remember the answer. Okay I mean the question on the paper might well be, What happens when a metal reacts with an acid. Yeah. Not any particular one so then you've got to think well I don't know can't remember well let's try it what would happen let's try zinc maybe you'll vaguely remember we tried zinc and hydrochloric Mm yeah. What would happen well you're almost certainly going to get the zinc chloride and what have you got left, hydrogen ah. So what happens with any acid and any metal with a mes a metal and an acid you're going to get a salt and hydrogen given off. So this is Yeah. this is your way of working back rather than try and remember every little detail because a lot of them are similar, easy to get confused between them but you think well hey what would happen, what happens with an acid and a base, what happens with an acid and an alkali, now those two are virtually identical they they are more or less identical. What what Mm. happens there? With an acid and a base. Well the easiest one perhaps is what happens with an acid and an alkali. Erm you get a water and a salt. Right now you didn't need to go did you need to go back to remember any No. specific ones? No. No and the same thing happens with a base Water and salt. Water and a salt. And then the other thing is what happens with a carbonate and an acid? Erm carbon dioxide. Right and? Er hydrogen no carbon dioxide water. Yeah and? And? you've you've worked it you've worked it out over here and yeah and. What did you do you got this horrible looking thing and we said oh that doesn't happen because we know we've got carbon dioxide Oh er you mean But you'd already taken out It made Yeah I know it made that but I thought you just wanted to know what it gave off. Oh okay what every everything that's made so It's calcium chloride. Right so there's a salt and the carbon dioxide And the a and the water. Water. So if you want to just sort of remember them all, as a table we've got sort of say acid plus metal and see what happens see what's given off, well we get a salt a lot of the time don't we and we Yeah. get water a lot of the time so erm salt,water,hydrogen,carbon dioxide. Yeah. Can you remember what happens with the metal? Erm acid and the metal what did we get? Acid and metal it gives off hydrogen . Right okay so it's hydrogen and? Erm salt. Right. Brilliant. Acid plus an alkali that's about the easiest one . That's er salt and water. Right. Acid plus alkali gives you salt and water. Yeah. And. Acid and a base. Good. And that gave you what? Er salt and water. Right and acid and perhaps the most awkward one the carbonate. Which gave? Right er hydrogen The carbonate carbonate carbonate Oh yeah carbon dioxide Dioxide okay . Yeah carbon dioxide and the water that was it I was thinking I saw the H two yeah and and the water yeah and the water and the and salt. salt. Right. Okay so that's your table of what goes on. Now you can look at that and sort of chant it out to yourself and learn that as a table or learn it visually or vaguely remember some of it and fill in the gaps by going back, What happened when we tried when we dripped ac acid on a metal? Yeah. Hydrogen. What happened when we dripped acid on marble chippings on a carbonate? What did happen? Er marble chippings on effervesces it gives off carbon dioxide. Carbon dioxide okay what happens with the old standards the alkalis? Er water and a salt. Yeah and the same for the bases. Right. So I reckon you've got that all sorted out. You know the sys that I mean that's the system this is say this is the key to a good getting on for eighty percent Yeah. of the chemistry you need. Erm you'll be able to look at it and say, Well is it a is it an acid and a base, acid alkali, acid metal, acid carbonate. If it is even if you've never heard of them before you know sort of funnium carbonate or something Yeah. You're going to think well I know what will happen, we'll get if you drip hydrochloric acid on it you'd get funnium chloride water and carbon dioxide. Yeah. Right. You'd need to know Yeah. what the valency is to make up this formula you could do the same if it was if someone told you it was an some unknown So if it's an unknown compound and I drip Let's say it was unknown compound and I dripped hydrochloric acid on and I got carbon dioxide given off yeah Yeah. and I got calcium chloride and water formed what was it that I was dripping onto? Er and you got calcium I got I got carbon dioxide given off Yeah. so it must have been? Erm a carbonate. It must have been Good it must have been some sort of carbonate, and the salt that was formed was from the hydrochloric acid was calcium chloride, so it must have been? Calcium carbonate. So I mean if I I might have magnesium carbonate and I drop hydrochloric acid on Yeah. what would I get? Magnesium carbonate Magnesium carbonate drop hydrochloric acid onto that. Magnesium hydroxide Magnesium salt of hydrochloric acid? It's it's all too much I'm getting a bit confused now it's Okay okay okay go back so what you need is a when you get when you get I'm I'm trying to do too much at once now it's Okay okay When you get confused when you get lost you've got to go back and find your direction again so carbonates carbonates Yeah but it's not it's not, Oh I don't what direction I'm heading in. I'm trying to do too many things at once and I'm getting, Oh oh is it. and this kind of thing it's getting er I just think I'm going to end up more confused by trying to do it all at once than if I concentrate on one thing at a time. Cos I'm going to be getting it mixed in future now . okay let's say let's say we're looking at carbonates Yeah. Right we're we're dripping this acid on a carbonate erm and you know you've worked out you've remembered, Carbon dioxide and water and a salt. but what on earth is the salt? Well they all give a salt. Which is the easiest one to remember for working out the salt out of these four here? Which is the easiest one to remember The easiest equation if I said, Write down the equation for one of these. which one would you go for as being the easiest the one you're most sure about? Er er the acid and an alkali. Right acid and alkali okay so try it. H C L plus an alkali C A O H is that is that balanced what's C A? Er double positive. C A double positive okay so how many O Hs will we need to go with that? Two. Right good cos the O H is only a single negative. S You don't need brackets at the end do you? S erm I need if I just put C A O H two Yeah. it would only be two Hs Right. cos they're separate elements. Like Yeah. each capital letter starts a new element and that would mean one C A one O and two Hs but what I is one C A and two O Hs which is two Right. Os and two Hs yeah? Yeah. So I've got that lot and what's the salt? Forget about all the rest of it, we know it gives water okay. Calcium chloride. Right now calcium carbonate C A C O three, is that balanced up? What do we need how many do we need that's a double positive what about C O three? Er Well have a look where's the C O three gone? Okay Erm . And that is a double negative so that's balanced. Well you you wrote the equation out you worked out what was happening, that and the you need two of those So those two got together and the salt again was? Yeah. Yeah. You're you're looking at the carbonate trying to work out what on earth goes on here what is the salt when you drop hydrochloric acid onto the carbonate. Don't know but I can remember what happens with the alkali and the acid, you get calcium chloride, er it's the same. The salt is the same all the way through here. whether you're dropping it on the putting the acid to the the alkal the the metal, the alkali, the base or the carbonate, the salt is always a salt of the acid. So hydrochloric acid always gives you the chloride, sulphuric acid always gives you the sulphate, nitric Yeah. acid always gives you the nitrate. Yeah. Okay and that's the so that pattern straight the way through for all these four reactions it doesn't matter which one you do. So the salt you can remember it through going back to the acid plus alkali reaction, it's the same one you get there. Right. The base acid base it's exactly the same, there's no difference, you're going to get the same salt and the and the water. Carbonate it's the same again just chuck in the extra C O two. Right. And perhaps the most difficult one to remember is the easiest of the lot, the acid plus the metal cos there's none of the usual stuff, no salt no water just the hydrogen coming off. Yeah. But it's you can I know you think it's a lot to take in Yeah. but if once you can see it as a pattern, all this lot fit together and you're not If you learn those four reactions separately a month apart or something yeah? You're learning the same information over and over again, this lot you're learning the whole lot once it's it's as though every time you learned a word, you had to learn your alphabet all over again Right. and didn't realize that the A made the same sound in this word as it does in that. I know it doesn't in most but but there is enough of a a tie up Mm. to make it easier to learn that way. Now do you still feel that it is too much for you to take all that lot in in one go, or do you think it's all it's it's it's gu it's A little bit yeah. you know Yeah. gelling together a bit. No I think what it is I understand it now but if you ask me in a couple of weeks Right. I'm not going to be sure wheth whether an acid and a carbonate Well I'll ask you every week. I might say yeah I'll ask you every week. can I just say something but I might get an acid and a carbonate mixed up with an acid and a metal. Or Okay. an acid and a metal with an acid and a carbonate . But but but if you write the formula down let's say let's say you get it all wrong and I say, What happens if you have an acid and an alkali? and you say, Well I know they all give a salt so that's a safe bet, so I'll say they give a salt. erm they all give a water apart from the one that's just with the metal right, so water's a good bet. And I think this gives carbon dioxide. Let's say you're doing acid plus alkali and for some reason you think, Oh well I think it gives carbon dioxide. So I say, Okay where does your carbon dioxide come from then. Acid H C L and the standard alkali acid alkali reaction we use, what do we normally pick for the alkali? What's Er the well known one we keep choosing? er sodium hydroxide. Right all the alkalis, that we're using anyway, all the hydroxides are alkaline. So what's going to happen there? They go together the chlorine and sodium go together to make the sodium chloride and the H and the O H go together and make the water. You've got no chance of making C O three out of that you haven't got the C anywhere. Yeah. So if you want to make sorry C O two if you want to make C O two out of something you're going to at least have to have a C in it somewhere. Right yeah . And which one of this lot has got the C in? Is it the metal, the alkali, the base or the carbonate? Carbonate. Carbonate. Not only has it got the C it's got the C O three, take the O out of it to go with the H and we've got that C O two out. So it's a combination of sort of working at of working and that? Yeah. to give the water. Stick to the nice simple ones like H C L Yeah. What's going to happen? N A plus H C L? A straight forward metal plus an acid, what happens here? N A plus H C L right that's a metal A me a metal plus an acid. Erm gives off hydrogen. Right. Everyone of these, the big the one thing they've all got is a salt. So what's the salt from there? Er the N A C L. N A C L and what have you got left over? Er hydrogen. H that's it. So we take twice we take two of it so that we get H two Yeah. So with this system you'll remember bits, you'll forget bits, the bits you don't remember you can now work them out from the patterns. And each time you work it out, it's more it it becomes more er one you remember rather than one you have to work out. Till eventually I mean you ere doing it with these As you were going through here you weren't looking at this table you were working some of them out you were saying, Oh that'll be a double positive that'll be a double double negative these'll go together. The more you use it the more the system becomes natural to you. Yeah. And you think well of course it would wouldn't it you know you're trying to you get to the stage you can believe me you get to the stage quite quickly where you can't understand why other people don't see it. Look it's obvious this one's a double positive and that's a double negative so they're going to go together and you're left with H and O H which is going to make the water it's obvious isn't it. Yeah. Okay so try if you can can do you think you can do that, you can try to take those four reactions out of one group and see how related they are? Yeah. What's what's the big thing that's common to all of them? Erm they all make a salt. Right they all make the salt, they all make it in the same way Hydrochloric acid would make? Er water and a salt. Hydrochloric yeah hydrochloric acid what sort of a salt would it make? Er er well mixed with what alkali? Well say if it's mixed with erm sodium hydroxide. Er su er sulphur sulphur hydroxide Hydrochloric hydrochloric acid hydrochloric Er Hydrochloric acid okay. I'm thinking about too much I just can't I'm getting totally confused now. Yeah I kn Right right look at the pictures then don't okay stop thinking of hydrochloric acid, think of H C L. H C L Yeah but it's still making me confused I'm thinking about too much at once it's making it worse. Okay. How how can we simplify it? Erm to work out I think I think I'm trying to do too much at once I'm going to be really confused next week. You've decided. No I've not decided but I know I am I've done this thing before it's Right how much should we take out of this just to learn and concentrate on for all of next week? It's not that you're asking me, Oh well what happens if you. and I I've thought about it and I've thought about so many of them today I can't I'm getting confused at which one it is. Because you've asked me about so many of them . Right well we're only we're looking at four different types so if I ask you which one Yeah I know it's only four different types of Right of these you think now but you're using so many different chemicals that it's getting more and more confusing Alright so we'll stick to one acid H Yeah. H C L Yeah but if you just said an acid and a so and so, but you're saying a H C L and a and it's I know Okay I know it's still an acid but the way it's thinking about it's making me confused . Okay okay right so an acid and an alkali what do we get? Erm a water a salt. Right now if the acid happens to be hydrochloric acid with the C L on the end when it makes the salt, have a look at that one, Yeah. what's the salt going to be there? Er Chlor a C L and N A. That's it so it's N A C L. The salts of H C L are something C L. Yeah. Hydrochloric acid makes the chlorides. Yeah. Yeah? Mm. If we'd have used if we'd so that was hydrogen chloride makes the chlorides. Hydrogen sulphate H two S O four gives you the sulphates the ones that end in and what does hydrogen nitrate, nitric acid what does that one give you? Er H N O three ni So this this let's say we're using N H Sodium nitrate is it? Yeah it's sodium nitrate. So nitric acid because it's hydrogen nitrate gives you the nitrates. Sulphuric acid gives you the sulphates. Yeah. Hydrogen chlorine chlori chloride H C L gives you the chlorides. Mm. Erm we'll do I'll just get you to write that out in words and then we'll have a break Yeah. and a a little stroll around the room or something Yeah. because it's coming up to time now anyway so we might as well forget the break. Okay what time did I get here then? Quarter past. Yeah okay then. So hydrochloric acid hydrogen chloride Yeah. Right plus sodium hydroxide now what all that happens is that these two change places. Yeah. So we then get sodium chloride and hydrogen hydroxide. Yeah. Hydrogen hydroxide H O H well we usually write that H two O. Mm. So if you think of the sort of the word patterns, hydrogen chloride sodium hydroxide gives you sodium chloride and hydrogen hydroxide. Yeah mm yeah. It's perhaps perhaps easier to see it as the as the N As and the O Hs though okay or if we did it with sulphuric acid we'd have hydrogen sulphate plus sodium hydroxide what's that going to give us? Again they just change round they swap places Mm. to give us sodium sulphate and hydrogen hydroxide again. Yeah. Water H O H water. Nitric acid hydrogen nitrate plus sodium chloride again these two swap places and we get the sodium nitrate and hydrogen hydroxide again. Yeah. H O H water. That's the that's the pattern that all the acids are following. Write their names write write it like this H C L N A O H Yeah. swap them round and there's the answer Right That's done it. Hydrogen sulphate sodium hydroxide swap them round sodium sulphate hydrogen hydroxide hy we never say hydrogen hydroxide it's simpler to say water but if you write it as H O H then you think, Ah we've got the two Hs and the O there. Water. Mm. And that's that's it that's the pattern for all of them for all those four reactions. So that'll Right. the salt. Erm have you got any of your books with you? Yeah. Erm have you got your chemistry course book that you're working from? We're we're not really working from it we're Mm. it's just a book we have. Okay. The Well if you can get that we'll have a look at that and I want you to try some of these equations in it. And I want you to try them in groups so that acid alkali Yeah. I think I reckon you could you could just do that without looking at your book couldn't you. Yeah. Yeah? Yeah. If someone said, Okay nitric acid and calcium hydroxide. as long as you were using this chart to work out which are single negative and double negative, what's going to happen to that one? You've got nitric acid Yeah. hydrogen nitrate plus calcium hydroxide Yeah. is going to give you well these two the metal and the hydrogen just swap round each time. So it's going to give you calcium nitrate and the old hydrogen hydroxide again. you you can you can look at I mean it's easier with your formula if you've got H N O three and C A O H twice C A and that's going together. You'll need two of these because we want two O Hs to go with those two O Hs. Yeah. And you'll want two N O three's to go with that C A. So any of these I reckon you could work out any any acid with any alkali you could work it out. Yeah. So have a look through your book have a very quick glance at erm if you can just at an acid alkali one, at one side of an equation co try not to read it cover it up write it down and leave it for a few minutes till you've forgotten if you did accidentally see what was on the other side till you've forgotten it. Erm Right. write a few of those down, all the same type, all acids and alkali and then you just you can just bomb through those. Then try some with bases. Yeah try a few of those erm that one really Yeah. you could work out any one of those at all any metal with any acid because the metal just comes in pushes the hydrogen out. So if it was hydrogen sulphate, sulphuric acid, it'll push the hydrogen out and become zinc sulphate and liberate the hydrogen. If it was hydrogen nitrate the nitric acid the zinc would push the hydrogen out and make a zinc nitrate. Erm the carbonate perhaps the most awkward one Yeah. but you've worked that out yourself I like that because you you went for the salt see you knew you were doing exactly what I was saying sort of forming the pattern Yeah. But you you don't want to you don't want to see that you're doing it that way. Yeah. so went straight for the calcium chloride, this is the page where you did it. Right quite an awkward one that I gave you. Hydrogen chloride calcium carbonate you put your your double and single negatives on. Well we're going to get a salt cos they all give salts. There's your calcium chloride what have we get left over we've got this we've got hydrogen carbonate and that was really should have been your answer but then you know carbon dioxide came out so you just took it out and you got water left over. Yeah. So that gives you this fits with this pattern acid carbonate they all give a salt apart from the hydrogen one they all give water as well and this one gives a C O two. Yeah right. So I do want you to try to build up as many of those as you can. Think I think the acid alkali there's no problem. Oh yeah I know but all I was saying was that much of different things Right. in one lesson within a space of fifteen minutes Right. that in one or two weeks time I'm going to be thin I'm going to be slightly mixed up. Right well learn them this way then learn only the sodium hydroxide right Yeah. and erm oh calcium hydroxide is perhaps a more interesting one but you pick one of them that you're happy with and take it through here so what would happen with let's see I mean you wouldn't actually drip sodium an acid onto sodium if you've got any sense. Okay. Yeah I know boom. But you should get roughly the same reaction. Erm so maybe we could we've been using sodium a lot try calcium because it's interesting cos it's got a double one a double positive negative is it? Mm. Right. So take them through there acid plus calcium, acid plus alkali calcium hydroxide acid plus base calcium oxide. So the alkali any alkaline use C A O H twice, for the base C A O calcium oxide and for the carbonate C A C O three, the metal just calcium. Okay? Yeah. So you can work through those with each of the acids. So go through with H C L. Right. Okay. Yeah. And just go straight through that what happens then go through again with whichever one you want to do next H two S O four? Yeah and then go through again with nitric acid. In each case you you did it this is what I like you went straight for it you went straight for the salt on the most difficult one the carbonate. Right it's going to be calcium chloride. You got that out and you found this horrible hydrogen carbonate thing left over . Mm. So you can do you can use exactly the same system you used on that for working out each one and see what happens . Now are you happy with that that you can do that or do you think that's sort of overloading you? No that's fine. I I th I'm quite sure that you can go through that because you're recognizing the patterns much more now, you're accepting more things as, Oh yeah , you don't need to tell me that I know it. Yeah. I can feel this coming back much more rather than, Tell me that again. Why is is called a chloride? Why is is called a sulphate? Right. So you recognize these patterns. Yeah. Okay? Yeah. Erm now next week you were saying something about you'd like one on Easter Monday, I won't actually be here . Mhm yeah. Erm Some time next week I mean You want one some time next week. I mean whatever days you give. Right now Apart from Saturday or Sunday. I was very pleased that you'd had a good go at that Yeah. you'd misunderstood Yeah. Now can you write out either now or just before I or when I've gone what you're going to do take a piece of paper Yeah I just wanna write down what you So what are you what are you going to do? Erm Can you remember what you're going to do? learn some of these. Right taking calcium as the metal,you want to write equations for each of the four types of reaction. Do you remember what those four types where? Or any Er of those four types. yeah. Go on. Er bases, Right. alkalis, Yeah. carbonates, Right. erm and the most simple one which is the hardest to remember cos it's so obvious. Yeah erm oh shoot what was it? Taking calcium did we say? Yeah. Yeah. As the Metals metals. Just the metal Yeah. Just the metal plus the acid. Right. Okay? So go through use calcium go through each of the four reactions Mm. Yeah. So use calcium hydroxide which is written on there, as the Mhm. alkali, calcium oxide as the base, calcium itself as the metal, calcium carbonate as the carbonate. we got four types of reaction using first H C L okay so write that in using first H C L then H N O three then H two S O four. Right. And they're all they 're they're all patterns within lots of similarities, by going through it a few times like that and when you when you've done that go through again say and with and everywhere you could write the whole lot out again Yeah. and everywhere you've got an a C A you could put an M G and everything would fit because it's C A double positive M G double positive. Right. You could go through again and you could put sodium instead of that M G but where you had things like M G O H twice you'd just have N A O H so you 'd have a have to do a little bit of changing about. Are you happy with that? Yeah. You can do that. And don't forget for each for each of the acids. Yeah so it's first four H C L then H N O three then H two S O four. Yeah. Okay? Right. Now erm for next oh something else as well I'm not sure whether you sign this or I do it erm right what's the date is it about twenty eighth? Twenty ninth. You can read it if you've got time. Yeah. I always re I wouldn't sign right. anything without reading it. Erm what it says Yeah. I'll just read it thank you. Okay. That's the big point there. But you don't have to sign Yeah. there's no compulsion to sign Oh yeah at all by the way if you don't want anyone to It will be someone who doesn't know you will try to code up that tape into hieroglyphics which is Yeah. then stored digitally just the Yeah. words not your voice or anything. Just the words right. And the Just sign it here. It's the erm the way you stress words the way for example the way I will repeat words quite a Yeah. bit. And the way And the way you use and what use them for. The way people Where I'd say right meaning I understand kind of thing but I'm not saying that's right I mean right. Yeah people say that a lot right Yeah. yeah yeah got it yeah yeah Yeah Yep All this sort of yep you wouldn't find it in the dictionary No. it goes in now. Yep it's what people say when they It will do now in a couple of years time. Erm okay that's great. Now erm at the moment I've got a lot to fit in I feel sorry for the poor person who has to translate it . for next week . Oh she's very good actually she Yeah. batters away all day putting the stuff in erm she's she trained well she I'm pretty dubious to me. trained as a linguist. Ah but she's she's she is Yeah. interested in it this is Yeah. the thing. She is interested in accents and she'll listen to it and think, Ah that's someone who comes from Liverpool, er not a very not a very scouse accent but because they say I don't know you know I've been on holiday and people think I've got an amazingly strong And you think, No I haven't. It's No I haven't they even a they even say my dad's got an accent whereas Yeah. I would say ee hasn't . ee hasn't. Yeah. Erm but she will you know she'll notice that you you don't say bath and grass Yeah. you know bath and grass. Yeah. Things like this. scone and scone. well one doesn't say I don't think one says scone any more. There are good Mm there are people who have done. Yes. Strange. There are good things have come out if as well like Yeah. erm I mean I did a teaching initial for foreign language course at the the university Mm. and the thing what we found out there was sort of up to date English usage. I think I'll just take those sheets I said I would give you. So you used to say in business letters things like I should be grateful if. Mm. Nobody really says that any more they say I would be, they don't bother saying I should Mm. they say I would . Would. so I mean I got that with my interview at I should be grateful if you would Mm or I've ne I don't think I've ever heard anyone aver say it. Well it's it's quite correct I would be grateful. It's grammatical or I will be grateful. Yeah it's grammatically correct Yeah. but soon it will be appearing in a dictionary as, A bit over-formal, a bit archaic, use it if you like in a business letter but most people would prefer it's way down the I mean all these people go, Oh it's people aren't using the english language properly but if you look at the english language two hundred years ago Exactly. it was nothing like what it is today. It's developed it changes its form and it's Yeah. like a life-form it's Right. they go on about Shakespeare and Chauce Chaucer but if you spoke to them the way Chaucer used to speak they wouldn't understand a word you were saying . they wouldn't understand Whereas we can just about understand Chaucer. Yeah so as you say it's a it's a developing thing and the only a life-form it's growing it's spreading. Yeah new words words come in erm you know I'm well pleased Yeah. That's wicked. Yeah. It's really wicked, Oh Like a lot of old slang words from you know like a hun fifty or so back years ago are now proper words now. Yeah they're accepted and the the language developing is developing more quickly than that so they want to get the stuff into dictionaries Yeah. you know and I suppose it helps nowadays with things like tape recorders and so on. And computers Yeah. so because they will thousands You can store it easily You can use a database . Thousands yeah exactly from all over the country and they'll put these together and they'll say well in do you know about eighty percent of our interviews people are saying yep. Nobody actually says, Oh yes I agree dear chap. they say yep yep yep Yeah Mhm mhm . It's not a word but It's it will be one day. It is a word cos it's something that people use Yeah. a lot. It's not a recognized word. They use it a lot more than other words that are in the dictionary but no one 's ever heard of so they want to get usage. Right. Anyway I'd better make sure I remember that. You okay for that? Yeah. that? 0 Er somebody'll be in Right. most evenings. Have you any ideas now what will be a good day for you next week and what will not be a good day? Er any day apart from Monday of course Right. er Tuesday I've got my maths tutor so apart from Saturday and Sunday And you'll be ava you'll finish this you'll be available during the day time won't you? Yeah oh yeah that's fair enough . So I can probably give about sort of Two o'clock if you want. Yeah something like Yeah one o'clock two o'clock. I've got a two o'clock slot on Tuesday next week erm Wednesday, Thursday, Friday. Yeah I'll I'll check what I've got booked where and then I'll I'll get in touch you for next week. Er As long as it doesn't cause too much disruption for you. It doesn't. Erm Yeah. I've got some students at the moment erm I suppose with Easter most people do stay I mean Who's here? Eh? Who's hang that coat up? Joyce Yeah Hiya Hiya Bloody fog eh? Are you alright? Yeah Terrible int it? Aye I didn't I didn't know if you'd be coming or not. Oh, God Mind you, you had a good week off didn't you? Yeah It was terrible Yeah, freezing weren't it? It was cold up there Was it? Mm, bitter, it's like really biting up there Yeah, how did Dan go on? Erm, most of it grown, it'd grown back and it has grown back funny Do what? My sideboard has grown back, it's grown back funny Oh you know, more like causing a blockage and that Mm you know Yeah so we are alright now Yeah thank God Mm there's no bugger in So what did you like, what did you think about your week off then? Me, liked it off thank you Do you like it up there? Did you like it off? Oh I do You didn't enjoy it? No, ready for home We are Bored we are Yeah our old be in town, if you only go up and see her if you're in town couldn't you? Oh God, he went in Sunday, Bill took him in at ten o'clock about sixteen mile here and sixteen mile back it is Yeah so Sunday we went Sunday afternoon when had got back we had to go back again, er Monday he had his operation so we didn't go in afternoon we went over the Metro Centre, but I couldn't settle, so we come back Mm and er When did he have his operation? Monday morning Oh yeah Joe said he went through night, he said I sat and come home in morning Mm so he come home Wednesday morning Oh and then he went back Monday for his stitches out Oh and then he's got a big packing, he can't have that out like tenth of February er so So he was only in for a couple of days then? Yeah Sunday, Monday, Tuesday It's like Peggy across the road four days she had, she's had to have her breast off you know, she had cancer Has she? and she had it er Tuesday Mm and I went across to see how she was and he says I'm expecting her home today, that were Thursday, so that was It's not long enough you know that was two days disgusting that was two days Yeah well, they let her home in a week you know Mm after a week Mm and right, they have a drainage thing on it Mm to fetch all badness, I mean it were all five of those bottle or four up in London Mm erm, you know like creamy stuff and that Yes anyway they were needed beds, so they sent her home, and er, you know er see that stuff that come away, you see there were still some stuff left to come away Yeah and it finds a way to and she was in a right mess So where is she now? right in between stitches, it was all oozing out Oh God, dear One day she sat here and she had a T-shirt on Joyce Mm and yes she was just all covered Was she? with all this stuff and she were like it were eh hard It's like your dad were, weren't it, but he's, he had a hole in his back, so it ran up, and it used to fill up and it, every so often it would burst out wouldn't it Yeah, you see it's just got to come away She couldn't keep up with cloths and that for it No could she? No She had a right job did she with it? but like somebody else that were in, erm, the, the bloody pressure were up so they kept them in cos of that Mm over the weekend Don't they No Oh and they kept their bottle on longer you see, while they were in and they were alright, and it no She had some right trouble because they, they sent her home too early, so I did know they let her home, I didn't know she had her breast off though Oh Oh did you? that's worse than having it looks worse Oh does it? Does it? it look's worse I've never seen it erm, er in next bed to have, they've gotta have, well the pretty shook up anyway Yeah Mm Mm Yeah Oh dear, oh dear er in next bed to our Beryl She's ever so bitter about it then about fifty she's fifty two Yeah, she's about that age, yeah she is about that age you see, you know, er that little girl though, you know fifty eight is worse age for breast cancer Is it? Yeah Mm er there's a bit of stew in there, would you like some of that heated up in microwave? It's all that's left from yesterday it's only vegetables in that, there's nothing fattening in it Oh Joyce I'm not worried about oh fat in it anyway Oh not this weather anyway Er, erm I thought you were watching it like, you know No I've eaten more bloody stuff while I were up there last week meant for a star, bought chocolate Have you? Oh I was bored to tears and I was eating whole time Ooh going and buying you said you were going up nearer instead of just going, you should of said oh I just come up for a few days Blair had to look after him Joy cos he were bad when he come home like Ah you know what I mean? Ah He come home Wednesday night, they went and picked him up Oh she went in like? Yeah Oh and er what did he do, got out of car, banged his bloody head on car Oh his ear started bleeding Ooh love him the very next day anyway I sent for a doctor mm anyway doctor said she should, they shouldn't of even let you home Tt he said I can't believe it, I mean he had the operation Monday Yeah he says er, it's a big operation that Yeah cos like you go dizzy and that, it hits your balance you know what I mean and then Of course were having this packing Mm anyway, erm tt bloody smell smoke, making him feel sick Oh so he couldn't have a smoke? He didn't have a comfortable drag Joyce A comfortable drag oh Oh I feel so sorry for Oh we've had er, there was this wait Chris rung us up, she's coming over in April Oh is she? she's coming over before David Yeah have a few weeks well Yeah she's having seven weeks Oh yeah is she? ain't she? And then David's coming over and having three weeks, so she'll be over seven weeks Oh that'll be lovely that So I said to him with the kids? Yeah, I said yeah, I mean it is, I said, you come tomorrow if you like bedrooms are ready, but you see she'll be staying at her mum's some time Yeah she'll be staying here and at her mum's but er Yeah her mum or er Ooh that'll be nice her mum really she's got a lot on, she'll have a lot on cos she's got to prepare for that wedding, you know what you're like when you, you've got Mm you know if you want, want to be doing things don't you get out of house and that Yeah,pre preparing for a wedding, yeah aye Just stop here now can you see caravan out on road? It'll be old'un won't it? Yeah September er Eh? right, have you heard owt from no, er paid er his money Oh have you oh Yeah good everything's alright then brewery, brewery's took it over Brewery, oh must of took whole lot of them Yeah took all ground and everything off them Yeah yeah, well they've got plenty of money breweries haven't they? Yeah, I, have some Yeah have some of mine if it's We haven't been out for a drink us since, I think last time we went out New Year's Day It's only now Aye we so far We so far were down were hospital Sunday I says to her I tell what Cor all that and er you know we can have a drink, we'll go out and have a drink and have a meal like, anyway our John says oh mum, I'm not bothered about going out, you know so No we've not been out now we us No we haven't been since Sunday dinner have we? Erm centre on Wednesday Yeah Your only for a drink Oh not for a drink, no, no we haven't we have, but it's Friday What a difference it makes, it costs you at least ten pounds a night Yeah so if you're staying a few nights some get some saved up don't you? Yeah of course you can, I mean my mum haven't been out for weeks No she still had that cold Has she? Aye Mm well we, we stayed in a week when we had that cold didn't we? We stayed in for a week and then we started going out didn't we? You know And we haven't been out this week either No, but it's surprising how you, you get set you, you soon get used to it not going out I mean he's used to going out, but he, you still get used to not going out as well don't you? That's how it goes well it's been, the, the weather's not been fit has it? No I mean with his chest being bad he's Yes not been fit to go out I mean we went to pick babe up five o'clock erm Saturday and I had to ring it were really freezing cold Oh cos they've had their car pinched Oh took the car keys to them Who has? Our Wayne and who got babe, they've only had car a month Oh and they were, Pip's in hospital oh where are they? They went to see him Monday night, with all that fog, they come out and bloody car had gone Oh my God and er police rang them up Tuesday, cos er they found car at Great Alton, they went to pick it up, somebody had nicked it again Yeah? so erm it's a right bloody case Wonder how they're getting in? Just smash the lock, what they do, what, what that cop told us, oh that looks nice Joyce, they just erm get her things, put it on wall like that and then they just start it with wires, but it, that's what they trying to do with ours, but er they've either, either been disturbed or erm they, they took theirs, Monday night in all that fog Oh and poor things police rang them up this woman had rung him up, she's got a farm at Great Alton and Mm oh she says there's an Astra car here Mm in middle of field, so er anyway police came Mm and erm they said er oh it's been stolen like, rang our Wayne up, our Wayne went through to pick it up Mm and er gone again, somebody nicked it again Oh, never Mm Oh It's nice this stew is It's alright if you like in it, I put steak and kidney in it seems to be ate tons of it today, eh There's plenty of meat yeah we ate we right enjoyed it It's nice and tasty though don't it? It warms you up Oh yeah, what you reckon Joy I did it cos we went to see his sister yesterday, cos he's only got one sister so we go and see her, see her regular and, she's not all that good is she in health? No So she said she's no car to come over here Mm we go over there and erm so I do, what I did I put that meat out to thaw the night before so it was thawed Mhm so I thought well I'd put that in with some onion Mm and, so I did, you know, and, and pearl barley in it Yeah and then er I thought oh I might as well put some veg in, you know, so I put some veg in, so when we, I says oh I'll do this, I'll do this stew, you know, nearly to finish it like, and erm when we come in we'll have a meal ready for us, it were right nice coming into it meal ready Yeah, yeah weren't it love? Yeah Can be, how my hyacinth gone, look at it, the silly thing it's gone cock-eyed, can you see it Mm instead of growing up straight look one of those things has broke off on that Alec Yeah I've got plants, quite a few plants upstairs, the only geraniums I've put in my greenhouse has died, must of been too cold for them Yeah but I put some upstairs, good job, but I did loads didn't I all little cuttings, they were coming on a bit weren't they? Mm Still You learn don't you? Live and learn Yeah, I cooked a lasagne this morning, I thought well Yeah just pop it in oven then when they come in Ah yeah Mm Yeah so I've never done one of them Ain't you? It's lovely Joyce it's really nice Mm do it with mince meat and it's cheap and erm, but my, erm chopped onions, I can't, I'm allergic to mushrooms, it's nice with mushrooms in, if you like mushrooms Oh yeah erm chop my oni onio onions er onions up and erm, what do they call it? It's sort of like cucumber Oh er green stuff erm not courgettes Yeah, courgettes do a little brown frying Yeah, yeah yeah and then cut some bacon up, put that in saucepan just let it brown a bit Mm in a bit of fat, er soften onions, then put mince in, brown mince Mm erm a bit of garlic if you like garlic, we don't like it that much, so I get garlic salt that's not as strong Yeah and the erm put a tin of tomatoes in Mm in er a spoon of tomato puree Mm and some mixed herbs Mm with salt and pepper and that Mm then just simmer it Mm er and then just put some er on bottom of a dish if you put a mixture What like the mixture, yeah , mm and then you make some white sauce up, you pour white sauce on top mm and then I buy that lasagne that's already cooked, just in like strips Yeah the lasagne verdi Oh yeah and put it on top Yeah and I put the lo row, row of mixture of bolognese like Yeah then some more white sauce, then another Yeah row of lasagne Yeah then my mince again Yeah white sauce and then just grate cheese on top Yeah and it's really nice Mm filling an'all Yeah lovely I don't think you'll like it though do you? Eh? Don't sound like it Mind you, he likes tomatoes he likes, he likes mince, he Mm likes onions, bacon and stuff like that Yeah er it tastes really nice, I mean like, you can put carrots in it if you want Oh I mean like Alison she puts mushrooms in, she puts Mm red peppers, green peppers, she Mm puts all sorts, but we don't bother to buy all that Mm, no, no we don't like peppers , I don't like peppers No garlic No No but, I like that garlic salt, it's alright that Yeah it's not strong or owt you know? Yeah I've got salt as well mm But but, I put in that, so I've got a bag, I've got a bag of that erm stew pack you know, frozen, that's really handy that int it? I put my meat in and er, and erm tt my onions Is it like mixed veg like? Yeah, stew pack Yeah with all sorts in it, onions turnip, carrots, er all, all the root veg like you know Aye, yeah so what I did I put another carrot in extra Yeah and a couple of onions in extra and er Yeah some celery what I got fresh, I cooked some of that cos that's what I got from that bloke Oh that's good Joyce, very tasty Is that that stuff? What love? Is that that stuff I got? Yeah that's that stuff Oh, oh you didn't grumble about it did you this time? Is it in oven or on top? Probably didn't know I just did it in the pan on top Oh and I did it er the burner and then simmered it, I put, didn't put my kidney in well, when I put my veg in Yeah, yeah because kidney don't take as long to cook Mm as stew meat does it? But that stew meat I got that Very nice that from Cleethorpes you know very tasty We've got tasty we've got stew meat, we got erm lamb, I got, I don't know how many joints of lamb, I got er, I don't know how many joints of that er rib of beef you know? Mm Oh that's beautiful Is it? and it's only ninety eight pence a pound, it's absolute gorgeous int it Alec? Yes So er What you call it? Well it's rib of beef int it? They don't call it that Don't call it that they don't call it that, but it is that int it? That's what it is a rib of beef Yeah cos I said to him can you, can you cut me small ones he said well they're from the rib of the beef he said and it depends on the size of the beef what size your Yeah you know, and he brought this piece up, oh and it was pretty gorgeous, so Alec says how much is that piece? And he said er ten pound weren't it, but it made four joints, yeah Mm lovely joints, you know like er with a bone and the, the meat Mhm all around it like that Yeah I thought we'll have it well I've seen it here and er honest it's oh so dear innit? that's it yeah yeah yeah, yeah and it's really tasty isn't it? Yeah we enjoyed it didn't we? Well it will do me erm er, er Sunday joint a dinner and then there's some left for Monday and then there's some left for a stew you know Yeah which I usually make it into Mm a stew and put Mm it in freezer and I Yeah bring it out, you know Mm like when we have it It's lovely that dress it'll go, gorgeous Is it alright? right enjoyed it Right, we'll be having all them erm very tasty all them eggs you know, when we went to Alec, when they were selling these trays of eggs, er, we went there with Alec, so I said I'll have one like, and they were really fresh, but when I got home I got that thing of, from Kwiksave, I got the whole packet, big packet Mm so I'd got all that, I think it's forty odd eggs ain't I just Yeah us two, we don't use many, so I made, I made quiches, I put them in raw in the freezer, you know ready just to cook Mm bring out and cook, I made sponge cakes, fruit cakes, er Use up all these eggs yorkshire pudding, I had to use them up didn't I, cos I don't like eggs laid about, you know, I don't like them being there a lot Yeah, but if boil eggs they're alright boil them we have we have, we don't eat many eggs, though, do what? It's nice with the bread it's alright if you fried Yeah, but I've had it, I mean I've had them a week now haven't I? They're alright Oh I have them over a week eggs I don't like to keep them too long eggs, you know, especially with this scare being on Mm, mind you I never bother, I mean if you look in supermarket, erm, you know it has er best before, and it you know it's always a few months Is it? Mm Yeah I suppose it would of been alright like, but I don't like keeping them If they're fresh I mean and anyway this fellow said do you want some rabbit it's a pound each, so we ordered some rabbits , ain't got them yet like, but I don't know if we'll get them or not After all there is Sunday dinner to go so whether we'll get them or not, I don't know we ordered ten so I don't know whether we'll get, maybe if we'd ordered two we might of got them, but er, ordering ten is a lot ain't it? Mm, you as soon as he can, eh got MOT next month Yeah, ours, ours is due and er, oh is this it? Oh brakes wants seeing to, a side light, the shock rears want doing Why are you get it to steering Have you done it like? wheel bearings might want doing that bloke's Who do gonna do it Oh is he gonna do it for you? Oh is he? Oh, oh Oh go down and see him, if he'll check mine over So erm anyway goes in, I said to him other day, I asked him other week, he says our turn to give me a ring Mm anyway Bob said oh you'll see him on Friday, I says Bill is a busy bloke you know, I says you can't just go on Friday and expect to do it over weekend No this is it he might of booked somebody else in Yeah, well, I wouldn't ask him because I think it's too cold for poor devil to work, you know Anyway , erm, I don't know where he's got all this lot from, somebody must of said at work that, what's wheel bearing er gate steering? Dunno Dunno what that is, I mean oh we haven't got a clue, he's not got a clue on car, don't know where he's got that bloody lot from, so besides other things that want checking for MOT, I think he wants them to check They do steering them for them so we ought to have somebody have a look at it we've managed to drive Well that cost a lot, but a bloody well where've you got that from then Ann? Oh that, they'll sort it out Oh somebody, somebody programmed see if it Oh it work don't oh yeah Might of done it Mm cos there's not many cars in that yard when we past Oh No they've been that's it, when we went past er that Sunday, was it Easter Sunday we went and Oh probably nobody No in a weekend Saturday , Saturday we not in at weekends Joyce No, nobody there's no other time The, the, the thing was empty Well do it in week No it was the weekend love I said oh next week then they're not Perhaps weekend they're not working much in the week then They're not we went for market not all, but it were dead actually Mm Yes anyway we, we paid our er, our rates for Mansfield Yes Mansfield breweries took them over now Ah and we got the bill Mm so we had to take a hundred and twenty five pound off what we owed Yeah and if we paid it before the end of January Mm we got twenty nine pounds summat off Mm nearly thirty pound off, so we did, took that off and I sent the rest Mm and I took my hundred and twenty five off Yeah and I sent the rest Yeah and I got my oh, oh would I, I couldn't wait to get my receipt back you know, anyway, I got my receipt back as well didn't I? Yeah well if you say you've paid by cheque that's Mm your receipt an'all int it? Yeah I went out and got erm You know got er nice little watch an Accurist watch with that money Dave sent, I thought if I don't it's gonna fritter away Mm you know so er Buy, she buys ladders with her money That's it Oh that's nice Joyce, oh it's gorgeous that Yeah Oh that's beautiful isn't it? Yeah, got a small little face and It's gorgeous that it had to change that for me, cos it was so big the other one Mm Aye, he said it's just er to stop it from slipping straight off It's gorgeous your hand Yes I said well it would do Yes that could jerk it out, the test to hold my hand out, and my get it on int it? It's gorgeous that But er, he ain't spent his yet, I've spent mine,I've spent mine. Go on if you had a bloody some bloody stuff nicked last Saturday What again? we had last Saturday again They're all shit honestly You had what? He had some stuff nicked, a ski jacket which cost me seventy five quid it were half, the rest it should of been a hundred and fifty Nicked? Nicked Mm Pinched Aargh pair of football boots nicked, ooh and a pair of trainers oh not again tt oh I took her to school last week, anyway I think it were last Thursday ain't she? Mm Thursday aye er, she come home and I said to her where's your ski jacket? She says oh she says I've left it in sports hall, it's locked up in a locker Mm so erm tt so anyway Saturday we gets to Durham, she's says oh your Alex was just been on phone, she'd, she'd been up to school to do a hockey match Mm sports hall's been broke into er used a door bar and broke into all lockers, so her ski jacket's gone Oh this is a joke in hell so I told her to fetch them bloody home Yeah I says there were no need for her to leave them there, we're gonna bloody create it Yeah anyway she rang up have Alec told you? Don't get no sympathy off me, when you gonna bleeding learn I says, you get things too easy that's your trouble, she says Could she not could she not lock them up right Yeah well I've told Oh er what else could she do then? Oh, she could of fetched them home Oh Well I mean, you got your stuff lot, pinched you start your car didn't you? She were laughing at me Joyce when it happened to me, I can't believe how stupid you are she said Oh ah, she Mm and she said I don't like to tell time, she kept going, looking at me with a can't believe how stupid you are And what, you'd got your car locked outside haven't you? How did they get in then? Broke the window open Oh It were open that much you see Oh so that's how they got in? Mhm But she kept on saying how er stupid I was They being quick though aren't they? Yeah, weren't gone two minutes Yeah but you see they reckon it were that Sandra don't they? You know that Sandra Mm she were parked at side of me Yeah yeah used to do here? Yeah, anyway only her in when mine got pinched and, and erm Kath's got pinched and the police customer's Yeah er and said put two and two together and said there's nobody, we didn't see anybody, because her Carol parks the side of mine an'all, she'd gone oh or get in and put her in her boot Mm so, but I don't know Mm So How's Pauline going on? Oh don't bloody joke I couldn't get out this morning, all the trouble, I've had a fortnight's troubles, he's there the week Oh yeah, you've had a fortnight today won't you? Mm it seems though it's funny not come in next, last week didn't it? Yeah Did it? Yeah, oh Belinda's been going bloody crackers again Has she? Oh I've never known anybody like her, er I think it's an anyway Do you? but, you know erm, I told you she ran subsidy didn't I? A hundred and forty seven quid a week Mm, well I think that's good Well she created on Christmas Yeah cos she got to three thousand or summat Yeah and then she kept saying they owed her some money you know Yeah, I know fifty odd quid Yeah anyway when I come back in one day, she says to me, she says listen to this, a neighbour were sat here Mm I says what? Mm She says Chris, that's her in office, she's told me that I'm off the subsidy now, she says I've been on it twelve week and er area manager now Mm Mr manager at branch mean the area manager us, she said he's not even had the decency to tell me himself Mm she said Chris oh you're off the subsidy, she said I'd got my wages anyway, er because she'd only collected sixteen hundred and, hundred pounds so that, seven six are forty two, hundred and two pound you see Mm then they stop her this tax what she owes them all, well she's been getting a hundred and forty seven Oh yeah and she says that, oh this is wrong Chris Mm she says er I'm er guaranteed, she says oh no you're not, she says Ruth's told me last week to take you off guarantee, so they took her off like Who is , who is this on in, on guarantee Mm based her on it oh and took her off and David says to me she's a bloody fool to have sent, says instead of keeping her mouth shut, she's, there's George claim nowt, you know what I mean? Mm George is saying things to him and they're saying you can't do this and they can't do that, well they can do what they want can't they? Yeah of course they can So they took our subs in yeah So she said What can she do about it? cos she, she kept saying that they owed her Yeah fifty odd quid but Yeah she didn't cos working it out by week No Mm she's quids in int she? Bound to be She's had one good week Yeah at Christmas Yeah which we do Yeah and cos you've got double that and as the trustee so she bloody guaranteeing a hundred and forty seven pound Oh aye and Graham took want it it off her and I said she's going mad and the other is guaranteed as well? Yeah, you know if, if they alter your round Mm if they alter your round, er and it's not collecting as much Mm so, you know, to give chance, chance to go usually it's twelve month, usually they put you on guarantee while you're earning that much Yeah they've gave us since we've been creating that much she's had been in to see Mr she said and he says oh no he says er that's not right Brenda, he says er mine are all guaranteed until they're earning that money he says you can't just do it No anyway er David said he'll get in touch with us to see what's going on Mm and erm tt, he says well he says she did enough creating about it, he says, so Well if she wanted to earn her own money Mm she did alright though int it? Yeah When she gonna pack up work? She'll never pack up Joyce, she won't, she'll never pack up How old is she now? Turned sixty int she? Oh yeah, yeah Mind you I shouldn't talk I worked until I was sixty get lost you Instead of sitting there you're knitting Pearl did my round, she did well last week, David did Friday, but she did Monday and Thursday Mm and er she worked Monday and Thursday and er what did she get fourteen hundred so it she get ninety eight quid plus her own money what she earned doing her round Who's this? Margaret Oh she works Monday and Friday Mm herself, so she'll get her own money plus ninety eight quid for doing my round for two days What she did your round? Mm What she did round here? No David did here, she just did Oh Monday and Thursday Oh did she? Ascot, cos she lives at Ascot Oh didn't call here so Tell him, said Jo said you never called in for a quick , I don't mind David he's alright Yeah he's alright, he's, he probably didn't set off probably didn't you know Yeah, probably did it in a few hours Yeah picked his stuff up before it finished Mm, does it take much doing? Nah it's a doddle Is it? Yeah it's a doddle Joyce If they're in that's right Yeah if they're in but like it's compact really int it? You know what I mean? Oh yes It's all pretty oh yeah it is you know It is compact because I mean I used to do Stamford as well Yeah and erm so I mean like I go down here, I do some off Broadway and then I nip down Mm is it Beech Road? Where Er Ashfield Road I don't Yeah oh yeah like all of Broadway you know? Yeah You've got some Yeah in Broadway and you just nip in end of that Oh Beech Field Beech Field Yeah Beech Field then I'll go round er Oval Mm then as I come out of Oval How did you find out how did you find Annie in? Oh shuffling out, he's going round and round her David Is she paying? Cos you know last week she, er, she's had all sorts for Christmas, it's er you ought to see what she er, you ought to see her outfit she's got, she's nearly going around er, oh he, he can see her with different outfits on Yeah how, she got all these bloody vouchers off me at Christmas you know Yeah erm shopping vouchers where you can go to different places Oh did she? Yeah Oh and I let her have two loans Yeah and erm then she wanted some more Argos vouchers so I'll have them Yeah so anyway she said anyway er she's had this bloody Aga put in, you know she had that other Aga in didn't she? That what? It's run on solid fuel, it's a cooker Oh and er Oh yeah you put, put coke in Mm Mm and it heats your oven up, it's got all temperature thing on it a hot, hot plate, she had one before Oh yeah, oh she had one of them put in Yeah, but it weren't smokeless so she's had to change it Yeah and it's cost them two thousand pound Has it? Has it? Well when I went on Did she have a over there? Well I went not last Friday but the Friday before, they were doing it Mm they'd got it in right, cos she was showing my how it worked and that, all control, but it's run on coke Mm anyway she says oh she says it's gonna be a feature here, it's a beauty, I mean I don't like old line, I don't, you know for the money what they costs,cooker Yeah, no, I think it's too much int it? Yeah Yeah and, but she says like it, you know what I mean like What about her heating? Has she got radiators? Er that's run off her fire now, that's not run off it, that's just for a cooker that I see Yeah just for that? Well no it for the, the heating's swapped over cos Oh they're gonna do I was gonna say cos I think Jackie said hers was five hundred, but of course maybe it isn't But might of been might of been more because erm, tt she's had a, a grant for so much Cos she only paid two thousand for house and she had a grant for so much off the council She did , oh is she? Yeah They're brick houses you know that's why she had a grant? Yeah You see er she can have one because she had under a grant her, her fire won't burn coke, but ours will because ours is an Atlas Mm which will burn coke Yeah er well saying that burner she says she says to me just take thirty pound, the, there were, I think there's about seven quid that belongs to their bed, well their bed was bloody horrible to pay I wished that, is she still on? I thought she paid up She has, but it's in Annie's name Oh I see cos she's, she's got no for Christmas Oh what she spends every year and anyway she rang David up and she said, she didn't say it were for Bet but she said she wanted another two hundred pounds Mm in vouchers, so he said yes, and then she tell me she said our dad will give me money, she said the, the to help out with that, she'll have about three holidays next year Yeah and and then, then he said to me she will won't she? he'd been round last Friday, on Thursday she rang Mm up and she wanted five hundred pounds Ooh God for erm, what were it? She says hairdresser an er she'll, it would of cost so much to get car and she needed car doing, this, that and the other, and David refused her and when he went on Friday Mm key were in lock, but it were locked door Mm he said I know she'll in Yeah cos bike were outside Yeah so Yeah of course since Christmas she's not paid full money No and yet she's saying I'm gonna make this a feature, I'm having erm an archway over my Aga and erm, I mean she's got a new carpet you know She's had hope that she er think should be eleven quid a week on carpet, she had an old carpet She paying eleven pound a week for that house in yeah, she pays eleven, eleven pound a week then? cos she wanted it on sixty weeks Ooh oh cos she's had er patio doors put in her big room Mm it's not very nice shape are they? It seems ever Not very kitchen's every so queer though innit? Well that well that's not a kitch well I don't, you know where she got her table? Mm That used to be the kitchen and then the wall, you know where that stove was Mm and they moved the sink from there into that side place, you know, made that like a kitchen, but it's, it's rightly weird house well now You know you know you go in front door and she had stairs knocked in, she's had all spindles done up the stairs Oh has she? Yeah She's had that done an'all? Yeah, she's had all spindles put in I mean that's not necessary is it? No, but she had hers done cheap because er Oh has she? I says to her that's what I want, you know I want mine doing like that Mm a bit, I mean I've got a hall, you know Mm whereas as you open front door Yeah anyway she says I've set my mind on it, and she said I kept going round and going round she says it was such a price Mm anyway their Bev's husband he'd been doing some work plus some money they dropped on these spindles, so she was telling me Mm cheap and that Mm and then she got a joiner in to do it, but you know that He's a welder int he Bev's husband? Well he's to work Is he? Mm and er Gone contract to somebody I think she did, oh she was sending money and dad's been down there and the money ain't been paid into bank though She's a lovely girl Bev int she? Yeah but she You can't you can't really get, be mad with her cos she's so nice, she never er, never nasty with you, is she? No, it's Ever so nice it's just Yeah that she just gets a I mean she she does she got electric bill two hundred and odd pounds Oh God she were crying and doing, you know what I mean? Yeah And er, but I mean you've got to watch your bills if you haven't got much money coming in Joyce ain't you? Well you watch your bills if you have don't you really Yeah I mean you don't go mad at it do you? I mean look at what's No costing us lately, we're having to get these, I mean we have that on two in the morning to get this room warmed up don't we have to put it down to one Yeah, Joyce has turned it down to one Yeah and er, then it's costing er three bags of coal every week Yeah while this cold weather's on Yeah fourteen pound twenty five a week Yeah it's a lot of money Yeah and then that every I know two or three weeks it's a lot of money It's a lot of battle keep using much stuff we've got now, hmm you know we do well with that stuff too Well, just oh what we had stuff yeah I know Pauline was saying she's had to buy some coal that's it They do on the day fourteen bags for four ninety eight, cos I were in Mm and she's had to go and buy some that had gone, and I says well I, she says it's just burning it up that fire Yeah I said it's a great big grate Yeah I says well I actually put a couple of bricks at side We've got a couple of bricks in ours I says it'll throw same heat out Yeah and you'll not need all that But we have a couple of bricks in Couple of half bricks Half bricks Mm so the fire can still get me warm Yeah get up, you'll still get your Yeah erm, there's holes or summat at side for er central heating Oh, oh cold Mm oh that's, that must be for burning coke then What's that love? Holes are yours, holes the same Yes she's got holes the same she, burning I agree yet it'll be suitable for coke they said Yeah knowing she, she'll probably be put in for planning then for coke Oh, she's got central heating like, you know what I mean erm she's not really into them now I think how she's got a cheek, she just gets what she wants don't she? She just takes charge And then I've never heard anybody like her No and she gets away with it don't she? cos he says er her husband is She's always she took it on six year, he says seven to eighty so she looks like working for next six year then you know when I go she's pleading poverty, she'll say Bet she'll go and buy it Yeah Mm but er they've still had a, a lot of money put to it theirselves I see because you see all this bloody expensive Aga, they won't be towards that council, I mean like she's gonna have it tough again you know what I mean? She always does, doesn't matter what she gets it's got to be different to anybody else's and Yeah, yeah, yeah she'll get what she wants and I thought oh fancy paying all that bloody money, I thought why it's only a cooker Mind you I like Annie I like Annie as well do you? I don't I can't say I don't like her, but er Yeah she's, she's alright, she's alright, but she's you just feel like er, saying look Annie go steady, don't you, you know what I mean? Well er I mean Er I think well it, it's not on, she's got all this stuff and then she just thinks she can pay what she wants Yeah and it's, it's I mean shouldn't let her have that Joyce? She could shouldn't let her have all that No, we could do that Yes couldn't we? Of course we could yeah anybody could Anybody could go and get all this stuff and then not pay Not pay for it yeah that's right er, I mean it's irresponsible Yeah and she'll say our Bev's, our Bev's been, you know, and the money ain't run in or his pit pension ain't gone in you know and then Mm she's here telling me how they sent over and she said oh don't call for the next two week because we're going to Italy and, like I say I mean She will do Yeah and she, and she, just dumps then she'll say I know she used to be like that with me Yeah we haven't we haven't got much to go away and Yeah as if she wants some money off you as well Yeah to go with and she's not gonna pay you Yeah she does, yeah and I think well you cheeky sod you know I know I know, aye, you know when you just can't believe it can you? Mm Can't You gonna have that one left when you finish that yeah Eh? it'll come in what they call it desperate dye faces Oh and you'll do it in that one there, that's er do one You could have white faces, I can't can I? Mm? I can't do it all in this wool, with that many different colours to do, if they did it in, if they made ounce balls if they made it, did ounce balls it won't be so bad, but that's a hundred gramme that, so Mm I mean even doing two, you're not gonna use a hundred grammes for two, but not just for face and hair and that here No, no when you went football I did it, how's it doing? step it up, button up for you She could what? Step it up, make it bigger like Got one Oh you've got one, just one done Well you done this morning did you? Oh yes it looks gorgeous Joyce, Darren's Oh does it? he's paid, she's paid for it all, I know it's fabulous paper Is it? Yeah it's like erm, it's like a white background like, it's right thick paper you know Mm I mean it's got a little pink elephant, a green, a little lime green, a lemon and a blue Oh they've got like bubble, er balloons, but if it's, they're holding balloons Oh you know there same colours Mm and then she's put a wide frieze round with all little elephants on and then top part it's just all little balloons with elephants then she's put wide frieze round top of little elephant Mm and then er, they got some units from M F I, they're beautiful Mhm they were half price, erm, it cost them a hundred and twenty nine quid I think Oh and they've got a lovely wardrobe in white Mhm er Hygiena and er they've got like two little rails here and cupboard down here, shelves Oh aye and three little drawers Mhm here and a set of drawers, she's got a changing mat on top of here, to match Mm thick lovely mint green carpet, about that thick Joyce and er then Has she done it herself, paper it? Yeah, she's done it, and er Doug put wardrobes up and drawers like, cos they're all in flat packs Yeah yeah he did that Your sister got some didn't she Yeah she got two wardrobes and one dressing table in middle Yeah Hygiena they are Oh and erm, then she's got like white satin curtains with frill and all white lace to match bumpers that in cot, she's got a white cot, white satin festoon with frills, oh it looks bloody gorgeous, white satin lightfitting to match Mm with all lace on, she got it all from same place Mm and then there's like a little white thing hanging with a little teddy in Ah in thing, ah do you know it looks bloody lovely it didn't cost them that much No Did you see erm, they see in this paper the light did it were in Kingfisher book and it was seventeen pound for a roll Mm and then frieze were ten ninety nine Mm anyway, oh he says well you only need four rolls, cos it's not a very big room Mm and er anyway our Dawn says I'm not paying all that bloody money for babe to rip it off for when Mm he gets going like Mm Anyway they went in this big store Dickens and they'd got it in there Mm er seven ninety nine a roll Oh and four ninety nine for frieze Yeah so they got that and the carpet it had been seven ninety nine in Allied and it had been reduced three ninety nine for a week Oh so they got that, well fitted it Mm so they didn't, it only cost them thirty quid for carpet Mm and erm What for that carpet? Yeah, yeah What kind of carpet is it like? It's erm, oh it's beautiful for a bedroom Mm you know it's like er, erm it's right soft Mhm it's right soft carpet, it doesn't, there not be a lot of wool in it for that money, you know what I mean No, no be a lot of nylon but I don't think there are it's alright for a baby's room Yeah, yeah you know, and erm, our Kim, er, she, she goes to bloody extreme then, she's picked a wardrobe, one wardrobe and a set of drawers, should of been a thousand pound and that bloke at Aston where she got her bed from, which she paid twelve hundred pound just for a bedhead Mm, just for a bedhead er the bedhead and the bottom Oh my God he's let her have it for six hundred pound, because Mm er what happened were, er she got this brass bottom and brass top and it's like, was up like that and she's got curtains round and drapes like that Mm but she had drapes and that to buy herself and, and they put it on the frame and she can't get into her drawers on bed, so they're no good No and er they've been back so that she can take her camera and that out, cos she kept cameras and er bedding and stuff in drawers Mm anyway he says d'ya know he says I feel awful, he says anything I can do, he said I'll let you have one of my beds cos Yeah their bed is as new as ours Yeah he says for cost price, our Kim says well it were a lot of money that bed and we've only just got it Yeah she says and we like, like it like, you know Yeah she says we're just not gonna be able to use drawers that's all she said I'm not going for another bed No Anyway he says look if there's owt you want he said I'll let you have it at cost Oh so, she thinks like they were, they were on show these just for a wardrobe and a set of drawers for a thousand quid, he let her have them for six hundred, so she's been and paid a deposit on them Mm six hundred quid for them, she bought a rocking horse three hundred pound, they went out last weekend That's stupid went out last weekend bought a bloody camcorder twelve hundred quid Ooh on weekly like, on monthly like Yeah you know what I mean, and they've even got bloody babe's bedroom done Oh you know and I says like When does she have her baby? April Oh Everything with them, you know like er, I mean, I mean they get paid for fair enough Yeah but, he's one of the it's always got to be the dearest all the time Yeah You know telly Yeah they ain't got a Nicam telly for four hundred quid Yeah they had to get dearest Nicam telly Mm six hundred and fifty, six hundred and odd for Nicam video Yeah you know what I mean? Yeah Everything he gets Joyce Yeah er it's got to be It's not them that pays it int it you know Oh he pays them, but like Does he pay them erm, does it matter, do they last any longer then er, then er You can't tell him any different, er like Dan at work he does videos of profession like you know. Ain't it? It's so easy to keep clean that and that it only wants wiping over, you know. No we ain't spent much on bedroom have we? No Not if you want to buy some melamine and get some of that in that thirty five pound stuff put insides you can't do it now anyway you're no good standing you can't. What do you sound like on the er thingummybob Alec? Do what love? What you sound like What? on it? I've no idea You go, is it on? Yeah I've put it on to record yeah Put it to record have you? Yeah, oh where's that? Mm oh have you? Would you like a yeah If I'd known this cake were gonna go so quick I wouldn't of fro froze that other one. It's not done yet Eh? It's not done yet Oh, can't have it then can I?see now Well I'm not envious of their heating Eh? I'm not envious of their heating freezing in their hall, isn't much, you can nearly see the outside through their door and all cold's coming in, it's worse than our door Mm it is. She's right though about Annie, Annie will just have what she wants Yeah, mm if she's refused about having something she'll set she'll get it by hook or by crook, that's on the, wonder she's not in jail though for not paying I heard how many time, how much she's borrowed over Christmas, for at, for, for er, what they call it as well you know er, what they call it Beverley her daughter Mm you know, she's only got two daughters and one of them, one of them's a hairdresser. a taste do you, I I've got What? Pass me end piece Mm? pass me end piece You want it all? No end piece Oh, don't you want that bit? No, prefer the crust bit Do you? You don't really miss them much do you? Eh? Don't miss them much? No eh if I know it were gonna be that quick I wouldn't of put that other one in freezer were you? Oh no Make a change I'm not gonna take it out again, I know what it's gonna be like this one freeze it and re-thaw it don't you? Oh God whatever's that? Are they off then? Mm? Have they gone? Are they stampeded? Mm How would she be able to blow that mm mm do reverse and make it bigger Got a bit of paper mm Not making that noise that margarine take it up on Kwiksave That's that's alright int it? Mm No that's Stewart Grainger, who's the other one? yeah, oh is it Robert Taylor? Who? It's not Robert Taylor is it? Might be should be done Well I'll have a look that's today's paper that. Mm Robert Taylor mm Robert Taylor and You er add name down on that paper, cos you'll forget if you don't Oh there's nowt on yet Ain't there? Better do it otherwise you'll forget, gonna eat that little bit of cake or I'll throw it away? No you have it I've had half of it, there about I tell you Chris had leave got get a new carpet when kids have come back Mm I can't wait to get rid of that carpet, I am sick of seeing it Oh absolutely sick of seeing it. what's wrong with it? Nothing wrong with it I've told you, I'm sick of seeing it. I wanna go on holiday Oh then I'll be like, I then be glad to see it when I come back even I am glad to see when come back Oh well it's gonna be a right change for us in that room int it? Whatever we get I say Angie's is that, carpet's that thick, three pound odd a roll you must be joking, eh? I'm glad I They're an awful lot here though won't it? It cost me oh, oh she said it's right soft didn't she? You don't think she said she had er a few days off, a week off Not very much I thought he were gonna forget that, I thought I should of got up and told everybody at the front Oh dear I'm gonna have a little rest from this in when I've done this Oh you've had, you're gonna start doing sewing? Yeah I'm gonna sew that blouse I thought you would do I thought there was something you'd be doing I won't be sure now I'm gonna put that tax disc in Mhm do it tomorrow anyway Is it due? Yeah it's the first today What we on February tomorrow? Yeah Oh you've got to say rabbit rabbit for you rabbit rabbit for it rabbit rabbit, keep saying rabbit rabbit, but we never get none do we? You say rabbit rabbit tomorrow when we get there if we Yes it must of been a long weren't it? Mm What's it, was time to ring up and what's it say? I dunno H O S Hospital Dunno what They've made a mistake haven't they? Mm, aye bloody doctors When is it written for? Third of January Well that's when you went When? Third of January silly devil And then there's this January's gone I know it's nearly February now int it? Aye, yeah characters in here int there? Yeah Some of these old ladies it's the highlight of their week Oh yeah yes, mm innit? mm Listen me it's a long day if you're home on your own Yeah, yeah well that's him with Lil, you know Lil between Oh yeah since she's lost Charlie she's lost, cos they're used to going out together Yeah so you said a What? they, were gonna take her to bowls with us Yes and then er she can't be a member, but take her to bowls and then bring her here, she goes to bingo on a Tuesday and a Thursday, but the point is it's night time, so if we can fill her days in a bit Yes it won't be so bad, I mean we're coming here so we might as well Yeah bring her Who's that? Lil Oh yeah Lost her husband Oh yeah just before Christmas weren't it? All the twos Twenty two thirty nine Oh that's mine that Twenty Twenty two, twenty seven Oh they're all little numbers Twenty two and twenty seven well it must be in the book, we've got a, we've got a card Its not on your card though int it on your card, oh for some reason or other she doesn't put your number on your card, I can't understand that dear I really can't If your name's on, if you're on, you know if that's your number She kept putting her name in er different book yeah twenty five pence about three books we were put in Yes the big book to say we've come yes well all the numbers in time go in that bag Yeah and there's two drawn out every week and get twenty five pence, but those two numbers are kept out Oh I see, yeah so they see that's right, yeah, so you do at least get one Yes Yeah you're supposed to yes I won twice though in a run didn't I me, more or less Yeah didn't I? Yes Ever so quick it's still twenty five pence but there's both when they've taken two out with the members here and they've got their, you know, money, they are left out then Yeah put er put away and then another two drawn out them two have not been for a while so they've crossed off so, you have another Oh so you can do another Ooh, well she should of put my name in Trust us to do it all then She's given you a number already she says Fifty three fifty three She has that yeah Yeah but they don't put it on the card so I think you're thirty nine we don't know what number we are ninety eight fifty three Ninety eight and ninety eight Oh ninety eight might Oh I might, oh I might, might It might be yours Is it yours? There's a lot here int there ninety odd Ninety three, is yours ninety eight then? I don't know what mine is they did tell us but I forgot Yeah I thought you said yours was ninety I thought it was ninety three was it ninety three? but it couldn't of been cos it came out last week Might be ninety eight then Well Said who? Ah, speak Ah no they're both of They're both in them are in Oh they're both hers she says oh that's right Mrs and Mrs they haven't been for a long time them two so they're cast off, well they must of been they've had to join Mrs or what? Mrs haven't they? Well maybe they've not been so they give them so long and then they cross them off the books don't they? Yeah You've nineteen nine Six weeks now int it? Oh er she's put them in even though you've not saved your subs Oh they haven't been collected Oh I would of thought that she would of put them in if you hadn't paid your subs, you know you're not a member are you unless you've paid your subs No are you? well they'll be crossed off they've not paid a while so they've got Until you've paid your subs, no I wouldn't bother, no, that's what she said they're gonna be thrown out yeah I'm good, I'm not drinking in the week I'm not, I don't really have a drink do you have a drink some people have headache when you get on you Yeah yeah for the hell of it I know yeah yeah we could, yeah, romance That's just what I can do with now bring it back Yeah Well I don't need them er I'm er read it first Bring it back when you've done with it I will love, yeah I like them paperbacks they're not too big is it? Yeah, yeah You can get through them I don't do I've not got time, I start reading and then it's, it's we're doing something else Well I don't really when he gets a book he's always stuck in it indoors unless I really sit down to read Yeah If there's nothing on telly when we're in I might just Yeah read it but er, I don't even have time to read er the er, er You know we, we've even cancelled newspapers us Have you? Yeah Ah we never oh we have a newspaper a day we never oh I like me newspaper we never look at them Joyce Well I like me newspaper When we get up in the morning I read mine in bed Do you? Yeah you know, look, I always look through headlines and read what I'm interested, I go down and get me paper and take it back up, we have a teasmade and we have a cup of tea and We used to get, we used to get newspaper, look what were on television And that was it sometimes do crossword Yeah but not very often yeah and that were it. Well er if you get Saturday's paper What we do now what we do now, we've, we've er, we've just started it Yeah we, we rent a teletext twenty two inch Teletext seven pound a month Do you? Mm How much? Seven pound a month Seven pound a month We'll have one of them I used to I used to pay fifteen quid for the years ago to rent the set Yeah, it's a lovely I've got me own they're, what they er, they're just for the, our age group you know Oh yeah you've got to be old age pensioners Got to be old age, I can't get it, she gets it in her name In erm oh yeah seven pound a month Joyce And it's a lovely television and it was costing us ten quid a month for the newspapers Yeah Yeah costing you ten pound a month for newspapers? Yes Yeah, well That's unbelievable that isn't it? yeah Handy for us when you think about twenty five Yeah you would wouldn't you? It's twenty five it, it it were twenty two Well it's costing us it was costing us two pound fifty per week er we could get a twenty inch one for six pound A twenty inch for six pounds you know where it is, you know er not the Water Dale you know er the Colonaise the Colonaise Yes that's Colonaise Dick, Dick Oh yeah Dick summat like that Yeah in there Oh we went in there and we went in Saturday and it's er one of them funds you know it Yeah in fact it's better than the television we've got Better than what we've got it's a slimline, it's only that wide Slim? Yeah and it's a twenty two inch it's seven pound He fetched it in and he bunged it down and I said that's not a twenty two, he said it is, so when he'd gone it were only nineteen so I rung him up I says hey We'd measured it, it weren't it was nineteen, so we knew it wasn't you're trying a bastard here like anyway Yeah he come, he come yesterday and brought us a twenty two He changed it, yeah Do they do videos then? How do they measure them like? How do they measure them? I don't know if they do them on video of old age people Ah but we've got a video A video we could do with int it really? Yeah Yeah we've got, we've got a big It's only our video's gone yeah we've got a video No I, I didn't like it's right old one you know we've had it Yeah ours is, ours is since Brian was sixteen What is the video's gone? What is it irreparable? No it, we took it to this bloke and I don't know what he's done with it because it played before we took it and when he, he said it weren't worth doing and when we brought it back it won't even roll now even play now will it? Oh he's messed it up So what he's done with it I don't know oh no, we, we, we er what's the name of it? I know a bloke at Waddington he's very, very good with videos Is he? Yeah, really is, yes er you take it to him Yeah I mean he's a business you know Yeah he, erm and he'll tell you whether it's worth repairing or not Joyce Well he said it weren't Has he but like I say Yeah it weren't too bad when we took it, it would play but there weren't even, when we brought it back Oh and he said to erm when we went to pick it up is there a tape? Have I left a tape in there? And he said I don't know and Alec said well how the heck can you bloody try to mend it if you don't bloody know if there's a tape in or not Yeah I, I you know so what he's done He sounds like somebody who mended our what he washer Yeah Well he's in business is he? Is it a shop? I think, yeah , it's a shop, it's a shop Yeah, oh ours come from er I think it er this bloke had his done in a shop When he's mended I think he's made it our washing machine so that it weren't even made sure that it didn't I do, I really do Yeah Yeah I think he's made it to make sure it didn't mend because he wants the see Just like that Joyce and he got it see well we thought if we could get that done it would do for caravan and erm at home you know Who's that? Erm What were you took to him Joyce were it the video or television? Yeah I wouldn't leave it with him he's a right cowboy Yeah at Ash Hill Yeah Ash Hill at Yeah that's him Yeah Yeah Yeah I took mine to him he's a right cowboy Right careful of him Yeah he is isn't he? Well how d'ya know? I took it to this kid at well how do you know about him? Eh? How do you know about him? Drink your tea so they can have your cup How do I know about him? Mm I think I see, I think it were advertised in, in Advertiser something like that Yeah I took summat to him I did Oh you took summat did you? Yeah Oh yeah I think yeah and, and he er, he look, he didn't even know how to take bloody back off I had to show him how to take it, I said oh I'm not leaving this with him, that were video Yeah that were video Was it? Yeah because it's all Oh I see Oh I beg your pardon That's alright love, that's alright, it's my fault for being up there, it er I'm always doing that putting me elbow up, er, it's a right old'un you know I mean it's about ten, twelve years old now Yeah this video Yeah so show you how old it is I mean now it He said, he said when they get to how old? About seven years he says you can expect them to start going like then, you know and I Yes think what he wants to do is he wanted to sell us a new one Sell it, yeah, yeah oh dear, so er so who's that who's been organizing have, have er, it, do they just sell one lot like again in same, same again Yeah, just one same again and that's it then Is that it? Yes Oh right, I will get Right Ah you'll be singing a bit later on Oh will we? Happy birthday Yes Well I'm not, I'm not a hat person me I'm not d'ya know we've got the wedding coming up and I dread, I keep trying hats on Whose wedding? Me daughter Ooh have you? Yeah eight quid a piece yeah Well Yeah well I can't put a hat on me hair takes the same shape and I take me hat off me hair's the same shape as me hat Yeah Yeah Yeah well I thought if I could see just a little bit of er Yeah that's the thing innit? just across here just to say you've got something on your head Maybe you'll get some they sell them don't they? Oh I've not thought about, I tell you I looked in British Home Stores they had these You know if you go wide brim things and put it down and it comes down here on me I think it I think it's still there What colour are you wearing? as you go through where I don't know yet you know Oh where are, where Lowestock market used to be them gates Yeah go through there and it's somewhere around that area they sell and things for and bits for hats don't they? Oh I know, yeah yeah You know where I mean? yeah, yeah Maybe just get a piece of something Piece of something yeah, yeah a bit of mm, yes Just say you've got owt yeah Yeah it's more or less just to say you've got something especially the hat, I bought one of them er it was a little pill box things Yeah for me son Mm That'll, that'd be a good idea and I can decorate it yeah, the, that's the awful part I tried one of them with a big bit here and I tried it on and it looked like a tit on a pimple, I said god what am I gonna do? No I haven't got me outfit yet No, when is your wedding coming up? April the fourth Ooh is it, ooh She, she'd met him, she'd come home from abroad in September you know from Korea dancing, that was er that came in on Sunday Oh yeah er she'd came home, she said I'm not dancing no more I'm finished so we said alright fair enough, she's joining er trying for the police she comes on holiday with us in the October, she come home September, come on holiday with me in October she met this young fellow, she got engaged at Christmas and they're getting married they, they Is that the one she was with on, on Sunday? Yeah, yeah Mm he's in the Air Force Oh yeah so he's getting married in uniform with all his blue and white and I said oh blooming heck Oh hell well he won't have to bother, bother about a suit will he? If he's wearing his uniform No, that's what he says they always look smart don't they? Yeah, yeah, me eldest son he, he got married in uniform and he looked nice Yeah So he's a nice lad you know she couldn't, she couldn't of picked anybody better, he don't drink a lot, you know just have them Where she met where she met him then? Butlins Oh did she? Yeah Butlins Oh of all places She'd been all over the Far East Yeah and she comes home and meets him in Butlins. Oh it's alright Mind you it's like it's better to have an English man anyway I was gonna say that was all that I were frightened of Yeah she'd meet up with a Yeah Japanese and ooh I just, they know my opinion of the Japs ooh if they, cos me eldest lad he does the karate he's in Wiltshire, he's in the police force, he does karate, he's got his own schools and he mixes with the Japs a lot Mm but he never talks to me about them No cos he knows I Yeah I'm oh bloody hell, I think the Japs are worse than the Germans Oh yeah and the Germans are bad enough Yes, he plays some of them I, I, I suppose the ordinary people but the Japs the whole lot of them You never know you never know where they Never turn your back on them No, but they er been about too much Particularly York how they were, now they're all growing up Yeah it makes you wonder how they yeah, I, I think they'll, oh as soon as we drop all our arms Yeah that's when they'll start, that's what happened last time weren't it? Yeah They will, and the Japs I think they're evil Do you like me Christmas frock, the, our David sent me some money from America Oh that's nice so I though I'd get, it'll just fritter away if I don't Yeah yeah we went and got that you do right, it's nice, it's a nice neat one that innit? Alec ain't spent his yet, he'll probably pay Yeah, it's better to wait and get something when you, yeah He said he hasn't seen anything new yet, he said I'll spend it, I said what you spend it, he said I'll see something when Yeah when I see, when I see something I want Yeah but er, I said well I said you need some new trousers like with you being I know he says but I'm losing weight and I might go back to where I was Mm, he can but he hope I have left it out, I have left it out for him yes oh yes, could do that, I've let him some out though when you see him at the back Yeah just, just unpick it well he used to be right out here Frank didn't he? He used to be right out here Frank, he used to be a right paunch he's er, since he's had his heart attack he's slimmed down ooh you ain't filled your thing in You don't need them on er this time love Oh don't you need them No he don't put them in the rubbish bin that's so that we don't have to mess about with it, it, it Well they're not they'll just er stick them put them in a box and sling them you see we've got the heating on in here today by the feel of things Mm it's warm int it? I'm glad I put this on I like your outfit you had on Sunday Frank bought it last year Did he? for Christmas I thought maybe you'd got it while you were abroad No, no, he he bought it a woman, a friend, er she makes it Oh does she? Yeah and she er she knitted it Yeah and he Yeah well she knew my size so Yeah and it washes up lovely So he bought it for Christmas for you no Yeah yeah it washes up lovely Oh these tellies are alright I've got one that's been I've worn it before, yeah, yeah and er it's that warm, it's got to be really cold, I mean you couldn't wear it in here on a Sunday night No, well that's what happened I thought it oh Yeah it's bound to be cold with all that frost and I was sweltering You, you were, that's only a fine one int it you've bought so that'll be alright Yeah, yeah it's got a lot of er it's a holey, what I call a holey one you know Yeah with plenty of holes in it Holes in it yeah then I got sort of er saving because I got paid what redundancy protection and everything, and I says to her oh bugger it I'm gonna pay that off and then so I paid it in the November, the second of December they announce me redundancy don't they? And I'd been paying it for two years then There's a lot of knitting mind, but, but Well we bought ours every row well we had er black and white didn't we? I bought him, it's ages since for his birthday Yes you know in case he were ill Yeah he wanted it, I just er keep him occupied in bedroom Yeah and we'd had it that long and er it's stopped having any yeah and we'd left it, and not bothered and then he says one day I might as well sling this out it's no good is it? So he put it in shed, left it in shed for a while and then it were not last year the year before, he took it down, I'm putting this in dustbin duck he says it's no damn good, we went on holiday and me daughter's boyfriend came down while we were away and er, he must of been looking in dustbin he says what's this telly doing, our Mandy said it's no good, me dad's slinging it out, so he took it home and fixed it, it's been going ever since Yeah it was love It's just marvellous isn't it? and yes er yes If it were, it were snow all it were were your aerial Yeah and yet Marion had one, she'd only had it about just over a year didn't she? And er, it went wrong so she took her daughter's out of her bedroom and using hers and when our John came down she were telling about it so he said oh I'll take it this Sunday and I'll fix it for you, of course with John working away he took the television Hello everybody and it were gone about seven or eight weeks and when he heard nowt about it It's a nice day today for you, anyway so I reminded our John and when he he gave We have some new members this afternoon Got some new members and you all know the register is closed before Christmas, after February we close, the register will be closed at the end of February, no more new members then unless they live on the estate, we have to do that for the Christmas party, okay? Right, well er, we've some birthdays this week there's er Miss on the fifth today she isn't here, Mrs on the sixth, Mrs is on the sixth and Mrs of Gasworthy Close on the seventh. So join with me in wishing our members a happy birthday happy birthday to you, happy birthday to you, happy birthday dear members, happy birthday to you I hope you all have a nice birthday and many more to come now last week the flower box raised one pound forty two, the raffle four pound forty six and the bring and buy two pound sixty making a total of eight pound fourteen I've got news for you he's been ventriloquist, he's a ventriloquist er next week is your let letters N and P for the raffle table, for the benefit of new members you go alphabetically through, you know, from A to Z and when it's your turn we'd like you to bring something for the raffle table Bring something for the raffle when it's your turn to help the funds, a tin of something, er your attendance draw goes to Mrs I was praying that you know So when it comes to our turn and Mrs whose both numbers were nearly at the end of them anyway, with, they'll all be back again in a, another week's time What did the second name did you say Yes Mrs and Mrs , right now then fix your diary, a lot of you weren't here last week, oh by the way P C is er coming along with a film, it broke down the other week, you all enjoyed the talk so I do hope you come along to see the film, it only takes about twenty minutes and it's on er security, you know, it's for your own benefit It is really yeah Events for your diary, your two outings, July the fifteenth and August the thirteenth Drop them down Got them down July the fifteenth and August the thirteenth, one's on a Wednesday Haven't got anything though and the others on a Thursday. We're having hot cross buns as usual on April the fifteenth Eighteenth Eighteenth Outing what one July the fifteenth? July the fifteenth and August the thirteenth, one's on a Wednesday Where'd you get them from then? the other's on a Thursday, okay? What do you call it give me them,me John gave me mine Well I don't get a diary Er the destination hasn't been decided yet I've got two quotes that were, we have plenty of time to pick that, the buses are booked so we've got the outings Hot cross buns er, the Easter fair will take place on April the twenty ninth, now I've heard from Goldthorpe, I only heard this week, and their, the production they're doing is My Fair Lady, now we're hoping to go on the Thursday, March the nineteenth, the tickets, the balcony is three pound and the stalls are two pound fifty, and they, there'll be your bus fare on top so if any of you are interested please give me your names this afternoon so I can get them tickets sorted out, right, now if that Where's that? My Fair Lady at Goldthorpe What is a senior citizen? Two fifty or three pound A senior citizen is one who was here before the pill, before television, frozen food, credit card and ballpoint pens, for us timesharing meant togetherness, not computers and a chip meant a piece of wood, hardware meant hardware and software wasn't even a word, teenagers never wore slacks, we were before pantyhose, drip-dry clothes, dishwashers, clothes driers and electric blankets, we got married first and then lived together How quaint can one be? They all wore Peter Pan collars and thought cleavage was something butchers did, we were before vitamin, vitamin pills, disposal diapers, Q E one, jeeps, pizzas, instant coffee and Kentucky Fried wasn't even thought of, in our day cigarette smoking was fashionable, grass was for mowing, pot was something you cooked in. A gay par person was the life of the party and nothing more while meant beauty lotions or help for someone in trouble, we are today senior citizens, a hardy bunch when you think of how the world has changed and of the adjustments we have had to make and that is That was good that was weren't it? And don't forget any of you who would like to go to Goldthorpe I'm taking the names She's on tape here this afternoon, thank you, and your raffles now, er Mrs on the pink you've got the first one love, give it to Mabel That's her little one, thought he had Downs didn't they? A tin of salmon the first one or whatever Was it, was it forty three thousand she won then? Who's J C R fifteen? Oh me You Oh you've got it It's me J C R fifteen that was second one You'll get second Leave that Christmas pudding alone Get that Christmas pudding Then Vera again What has she got? What's that C? She's got the Christmas pudding I think, it's only a little tiny thing is that it? Oh no it's I don't know what this is, is it W A or C O A, W A? What you got? Some scones It's you well go and get a prize then my duck, Will has got the next one Why didn't you get the Christmas pudding? Didn't want a Christmas pudding I did, I like it better than that Thought you were getting Christmas pudding Go on, you go and change it No I didn't want it That's Mrs Christmas pudding now Christmas is over Yeah Don't go Florrie you've got a pound to come, M A B's gotta pound, Flo and D A Just put them under there Put them under where? Who's M O D, D A Doris , Mrs , Flo and Doris , right you ready for your next bingo? Yeah It were worth coming for weren't it? It were Oh dear You see you're getting your money back Scones for tea getting your money back what you paid in I'd rather of had Christmas pudding Go and change it then No, I'm not changing it now That's alright but you've got no You're not, it's fattening So them Yeah, he don't know that Don't he? Oh dear There were a tin of pilchards, but I don't like pilchards Tin of pilchards was there? Yeah, a tin Big one, ooh I get those little ones for us Yeah I got them for me, I'd get them for me daughter but I don't know if she likes them Yeah she likes tuna and er mackerel you can get them little tins as well Yeah, yeah I wished we did like them cos many a time you can make a meal Snack int it? Yeah Yeah we usually have dinner time, then have our dinner at tea time sometimes you don't know what to have do you? You don't especially with us not eating fish Yeah, you don't eat fish? No, we don't eat fish Don't you? The only fish I, well I say fish it's seafood, is salmon Oh yeah, mm it's the only thing we eat Tinned? Tinned salmon, yeah So you don't eat fish, don't you like fish? Neither of you? No Well that's strange that Oh yet me father, me father'd have fish every meal Oh I love fish and me daughter loves fish Yeah she loves it, but Yeah I never touch it No fish to me was my mother making me sit at a I don't mind fish table Yeah from dinner time to tea time, to eat this fish Oh yeah for me dinner Oh and I wouldn't eat it Oh I tried it, but it used to, I used to, I just did not like fish No and when ever anybody talks of fish it's just me sitting at the table from dinner time and then she Yeah that's what reminds you of realized I didn't like it Yeah I used to, I love fish and chips, used to love fish and chips Yeah, when I were when I was er I'm alright with fish until I get a bone when I was expecting our John and once I get a bone that's it, it's over Yeah, I used to go down to and I used to pass these fish shops, I had to have fish and chips I like tuna cos I don't know why they've got blooming queues in fish shop Do you? Aye he says well why don't you use your pass? You're pregnant, you know your book Yeah that's right I said I'm not standing here queuing letting everybody know I'm pregnant Ah so I, I used to, he used to take me home and then he used to go and stand in the queue Are you all ready then? Yeah, is this two? For two games? For playing a line? Yeah For two games? That's right Yeah same as the first time Two fifty a line and six pound a house now pay attention, right, first number Oh yeah, if she don't give you a cheque two and eight twenty eight, are you playing Mr ? Yeah Yes You're alright? He's alright, we're alright Evelyn Come on Go on Oh there's always one Bloody hell, there's always one There's always one int there? There's always Just a minute, just a minute First number, two and eight twenty eight four and seven forty seven Could of carried on love two and nine, twenty nine I was doing it love I told you it was alright seven and nine, seventy nine, by itself number two four and eight, forty eight, six O, sixty four and five, forty five, by itself number one, two and three, twenty three, seven and one, seventy one, three and two, thirty two, five and six, fifty six, four and six, forty six five and nine fifty nine, seven O, seventy, three and one thirty one three and six, thirty six, five and one, fifty one, one and two, twelve, seven and five, seventy five, one O, number ten, six and ninety, sixty nine, five and three, fifty three, four and ninety forty nine, eight and seven eighty seven, both the eights, eighty eight Can't be long twenty seven numbers one and three thirteen Here That was long Yeah don't usually go that long Who is it please? Mrs It's a long one Twenty eight numbers for a line, mm Have you got the other half of this one Frank? Yeah, why? Thirteen Thirteen twenty three twenty three Oh it doesn't matter What's the matter? thirty two thirty two I just asked if he'd got the other half of this card twenty three twenty three Oh have they? Oh I see so there's only one who can and seventy one Yeah that's why I don't give them like that Don't you like them that way? don't like them, that way Oh I'm always sitting thinking if I hadn't got them, I'd be thinking now was it on the card I haven't got you know Yeah I'm like that The next number for the full house, by itself number five, three O, thirty, both the ones, eleven Now that I've finished work I'll probably do that for you Oh aye oh I well I won't be doing it then, will I? Won't be doing nowt then I don't know I don't eh? Sometimes well easier innit? Yeah Easier just to pick up go out to Johnny's early tomorrow won't we? If she's coming tomorrow afternoon Who? Who, Denise Oh yeah I forgot about that Mm up the lazy river, happy I think we er better go today then, don't you? Well er she's not coming until tomorrow night is she? Afternoon Well tomorrow afternoon be coming dinner time I'd go and have a look and see to buy some tellies like you know That what? Some videos Yeah There's one thing you can, you can gamble if you don't bloody well gonna like it No sure won't, two different patterns, two different materials I don't know this pickle this last pickled onion do I? But one did you eat like that, you sat, it's not like having a form of material to cut out more than that is it? No You know? Oh there's some on there if you wanna er Joyce was saying that get vast material Yeah, I thought these things that I don't wear that I like the material of, it's good material, it's a matter of trying built it up Ah dear, dear, dear, dear otherwise it might just as well get chucked out mightn't it? Yeah, try a pickled onion Here half a one int it? Mm, the last Mm, good that vinegar though cos I sliced some onion, I like it like that, do you? Mm I think I prefer to get it like that and, instead of having a whole onion it's better when, they're, the big ones like they are bit too big aren't they? Mm that's better, go and get some more in won't we? One day we'll call into Rose I mean you didn't get them from Rose did you, where'd you get that one from, butchers weren't it? Yeah Ah? What? This pickle, pickles, get them from there Erm you know that butchers next to the post office? At the bottom here? Mm Oh just happened to go in one day for some meat and I got me bacon there for Christmas, that's what I went in for weren't it? You don't want er video straight away do you? That's the cheapest place down there Mm that's the cheapest place int it? Mm, mm he's a cowboy int he? Well they say so, but Well he looks like we could play at ours the day before and can borrow Doug's can't we? Yeah Mm? Everything wrong now No, I know we can get a new one off him we can always get keep it okay for you in fact that's who I'd thought you'd gone to, I thought you had called in at their house like cos must of seen his, I thought you must of seen his run out his car at No I'll be up early in morning to It's, it's no good we going tomorrow or Howard'll be coming turn out late shift be coming out you know, might as well get ready and going out, now I've had summat to eat, it's only quarter to Really we're starting into the second leaves, the frosts through to the second set of leaves these, that's gonna be better plant and here when the wind blows do what love? I say when the wind blows it sort of a howl in here I noticed it when I were doing window other day Are you gonna go and have a look then? What about looking at back and me bulbs, our Michael might be there mind, I doubt it though I think it's his day off Oh I wonder if you Just er cut er, stop that, turn that iron off love He just wants to er, just want to go and get your groceries don't you? We can do that love You having a go at this when you come back? Probably, yeah Gonna put them on top don't it? I don't need the iron, I don't need, I don't need this out though just the, leave that just leave them on there like that In the, in the sun from so many hours Right oh yeah but at the beginning of the morning it were cold and then it went warmer Oh yeah and that cold at nights then it went very cold again Hey he's recording me here We, we, we did some with them We were at the centre yesterday with Frank and Joy Oh er did he come? Mm, yeah, we had a couple of game of in garden Did they sign on? She won the first, she won what did she win? Did she? Annie She won a packet of scones No at raffle They signed on then did they? Yes they're already, they're signed up members now Oh yeah, and it ends the, they don't, er she doesn't sit any more members after the end of February she said Yeah, yeah Yeah, so, do you want to get, get your, you'll have to start, come on then Aye get yourself signed up Oh we would of been there on Sunday but, I've been, I've been, yeah No I mean at centre on Wednesday Mm, I mean we've been going out in the daytime, when the weather's Yeah, yeah been good, a bit of sunshine Aye but stopping in at night Night, no because we've not been able to talk to people it's been er I know it's not been very good or nice for you Oh how you doing? I'm sure of that Not very nice to me Aye that bad It isn't it isn't is it nearly, was it nearly video shop here Video? Yeah We're out looking for it we're looking Where have they gone? we've got a couple of fruit and veg and that, but we are were looking Where are they? for a video, our video's gone Has it? Mm Oh My son took it to be mended for selling new ones? Aye, I and when we got it back the flipping thing won't play at all Er, Dixons Dixons, aye that's what Joy said Dixons, yeah it just wasn't er, it wasn't just anybody who were advertising, it was a shop We took mind to the Anyway still working or Yeah I'm on nights Alec Oh you lucky sod I'm like a bear with a sore arse Yeah, er, have a chat with these, no we won't Oh what a shame no we ain't got much time for pinting have you? Do you, ah see you son Yeah see you Alec I hope It's on your left, don't you turn down There's a place at Bentley on the left hand side, you might get one, that's reasonable, do you want a new video? Yeah A new one? Mm Well you should be able to get one Joyce Well we could've got a second hand one, but I mean what I'll pay for a second hand one we might as well get three hundred pound for a second hand one Can't you get one in town a decent video I mean I've been in two shops now there's fifty pound difference like, you know Can't you get, well what about those electrical shops on the front Oh you've got to shop around There's fifty pound difference so you on the right, Phil's Radios oh you've got to have a look ain't you? and all that, Phil's Oh you got to shop round, you might get something That's what I'm saying we about forty or fifty pound, forty, got a big different now on, some I've seen like Someone selling videos, three hundred No we got they were all about three hundred weren't they? Start from two, about two four ninety Say that, some were hundred, weren't it Alec? to five hundred, some were seven hundred He had two And I Nicam liable We don't want Nicam we, we just want to Mm Mm record a programme He had two didn't he? A hundred pound and a hundred and Yes twenty five pounds Yeah, reconditioned in that er, yeah, don't know, well if he's doing a, if, ours are no good when they're finished with it will they? we could, we could go and hire a film like if you wanted to play it it could plays at home and it played alright, it played well, but it wasn't being Aye How's your Tom, is he any better? How is he? Why is he poorly? I thought you said he's got to go in hospital for his Oh well er I asked Joyce and she said erm, he hasn't to go in, he's not bad enough Oh er, sort of er, they wanted to sign him off but our Tom said no he don't want to be signed off so they put them on er, he's to go back in six months Out dancing tonight? Jack are you out dancing tonight? Yeah, are you? No I don't think so, well, no Frank, Frank said he were going like And er but you see, well er you know we're going on a surprise er trip to Scarborough don't you? Are ya? Oh Joyce doesn't know about it so don't let slip Now look, now, now just let me tell her this Oh just let me tell her this is for her birthday? this, this is how this has come about Yeah now Joyce has, it's Joyce's birthday Yeah and for a treat he's taking her to the, er nostalgic weekend at Yeah Scarborough Grand Hotel Forties, forties Oh yeah for a weekend Yeah Oh yeah forties Oh yeah and er unknown to, to Joyce Yeah I'm going and Tom's also all us all, all four going Ah you're all going ah yeah but you see Joyce has been saying to us Yeah why don't you come? I said no Yeah it's for you Yeah but this is the surprise you see? Oh that'll be nice Now I see what you mean, yeah So Tom's, she going to Tom she said why don't you come Tom? Yeah And he says no I haven't got me name down look No I'm waiting to go in hospital, it's his excuse you see Ah, yeah says I'm not So Joyce thinks he's, he's going in after you see Well she told me that he in six months, yeah it was planned weren't it six months He can't go, that's the reason he can't go you see but he's going Yeah Six months' time But they're going now, Wednesday next, is it this month? It's the twenty first of February I thought it were February I think it's the twenty first cos we went to her sixty fifth, yeah and we booked end suite Have you? Oh, oh bloody hell, oh bride, bride room suite we've got No we've got premier suite Oh, oh Premier suite Oh, oh Premier suite Oh lovely we, all four of us have booked premier suite, but Yeah, oh but the others, the others They don't know, she don't know Yeah Frank does She doesn't know we're going so don't let it slip No No No There's a place where they go for lunch you see Yeah and we're gonna be sat there having lunch when they walk in Oh I see, aye That sounds great Oh as a surprise Oh yeah, well that'll be nice then won't it? Yeah Yeah That's how it come about that Joyce thinks Yeah he's going in hospital Do you know if Graham's got that flat, he's been offered a flat Yes Has he got it? Yes He's taking it Has he gone in then Joyce? Well he must have it cos she were on about it yesterday weren't she? On about this flat that George, helping him to get the thing for Yes, yes Oh Yeah So he must be going, of gone in it Yeah must be, yeah Oh he's got it anyway Mm Oh that's good Yeah They say there's a lot of alterations Yeah Thinks there's a lot of alterations to be done Yeah, I was wondering about our Tom, cos they never go nowhere do they? They never go out at night, they don't Well I don't, I don't know, I don't know No we don't see that much of them No that's what I mean they never go out He's golfing at day time I mean he's too tired to go out at night I don't think Elsie's bothered Oh not too bothered oh I don't think it makes a lot of difference Oh I don't think so Mm Ah that's that then I don't know how I don't know, I don't think she's bothered Jack about that cos she a lot don't she? She does have a tipple Mm she's probably getting tired as well looking after her She's more of a family person I think They get used to stopping in you know Jack Ah? You get used to stopping in after a while I think they do at Skegness don't they? Oh aye you do So don't care now I couldn't care less whether I go dancing or not me Oh not just when they were dancing, before they started dancing Have you? Me either they were always out when it comes to then I start getting itchy feet Oh I can stop in every night me You could what? I'm a right stopper-inner me Are you? Well I've been stopping but I thought, I, I Aren't you bothered about going out have you? I, I I mean I'm talking smashing now Yeah but on Monday I couldn't speak a word Oh you're lucky had you had a row? Yeah Yeah, yeah This is the third lot of antibiotics they've given me Yeah, yeah Aye it went in me ear, I went deaf before it went away Oh God I couldn't hear a thing in me right ear Oh it's had to go back to the doctor it's to be hoped it doesn't er go right for travel all around, like, you know We aren't nearly started breathing again cos er are you going to sleep or what you see or what you see or what you know you're not worry about it she said No it's not funny at all actually what she said to me was, was a I had a virus in me head Yeah, I see yeah and it's not been funny at all, he's laughing about it but I've had to cope with it No, I know it's not funny we've, we've had it I know we've, we've had it love it's not been funny at all it's not funny at all, no he makes jokes about me not being able to talk but I ain't been able to talk Yeah, no it's been awful No, yeah I've been really, really poorly No I didn't mean nothing by that bound to be, bound to be awful when a woman can't talk it must be terrible Well it, it wasn't funny that day before I went to the that ear Oh dear cos I had to go to the doctor and tell them Yeah, yeah I were flying the next day to Benidorm I've had trouble all the time with me back Oh yeah been away since before Christmas with me back Ooh I've had, I've had the tr did you with the wall then? No No because he went No back up there Frank cured it Did he? he jerked her up, up settee she couldn't get up Oh and it, since then her back's been alright Yeah I nearly fell over, he pulled me up with such a acting about Did he? Oh, er and it really hurt me back Yeah but it went right but it went Well he probably put it right I've had it funny he's probably jerked it back in, eh? funny for weeks Well I would of put rope round her neck He could of done and hang her up, pressure on it Oh my God I can't win can I? Oh dear I can't win at all Oh he's pleased what he's been doing that I just, I can't wish, I don't know how he's stuck with fifty one years really do you? I don't know how he's stuck me I could of roared of laugh when she won when Joyce won that raffle you know, all little bits of this and little bits of that you know, and there were a Christmas pudding on the, er, well you picked what you wanted well Oh hers were the number the second one out, so she had the second choice Oh, er so, er, Jack saying get that Christmas pudding, anyway she comes back with the ready scones don't she? And he wanted the Chri why didn't you get that Christmas pudding, why did you get that What did she say? What Christmas pudding She said Is it, aye won the scones did she I don't like Christmas pudding Well I don't my lovely Anyway Alec won a line two pound ten didn't you? Yeah And he, she won the scones What time does it start? It starts at half past one till about three It's only a couple of hours, it gets easy What have they got to get from bowls to there Yeah, that's right I see and then er, well that's what they did yesterday Where'd they go bowling? Up to Insthrope And he had a drink and he had a pint had a white wine, I don't bother Is it indoor like eh? She had a cup of tea did she Joyce? Oh we all had a cup of tea, yeah I see a cup of tea is it? we all have a cup of tea, yeah you pay fifteen pence to go in each, yeah That's to cover, that's a cup of tea and two biscuits fifty pence to join once a year Yeah and then it's fifteen pence It's what love? Can Joyce drive? Fifty pence Eh? To join to join Can Joyce drive? That's a pound for two Yeah, why? and thirty pence for two a week to go in So you can have a drink. Well I don't drink much do I? I haven't been able to drink actually, er I couldn't get me I'm a lot better now though Have you got bronchitis? Must have Well you weren't like that last time I saw you Er I was, bloody was, fortnight about three week ago I was no before holiday I were alright Have you been to doctors? Oh aye, erm he give me tablets and whatnots What he say to er, asthma or something? No just,no, no bronchitis I should imagine nothing wrong with me apart from that. No she, she had a grapefruit or something didn't she? What's that love? She didn't have an Yeah alcoholic no drink, it was either grapefruit grapefruit or bitter lemon or something like that she had Yeah I didn't have a drink I just I'm pleased he's had me cup of tea When, when he rang us up it, it was looking at us like for Brian he kept, called in as I was Oh going enjoy oh well they'd got it then ain't they? Had they got it through a Council then? You see he's he's got a choice, he got three weeks to move in, make his mind up Yeah must of done, he got up to three weeks to move in Mm make his mind on moving, so he's having it is he? Yeah he had to have some alterations made Well it looks like it, I know she was saying that er on about er It looks like it she were gonna look at that place at er Audrey's brother's got it same as Walter's, er second hand stuff to see if they could get a little bit of something, start him off, like, you know Yes, yes of course he's got a nice you know he really has, I looked in one day, it was very nice, they weren't what I wanted but they nice for anybody to To start him off, yeah, start him off so he must of got it he's moving in, I'm pleased about that got on, it was a good one yeah he wants to go anyway doesn't he? Bless him. He does, yeah he does Ooh if he, he feels for once he seems a great lad int he? thing is he wants his own independence Oh he's old enough now he's twenty seven Oh that's fantastic Aye you know he's twenty seven coming up you know he's time I mean I'm here to say, er is that disability but he's, he's a great lad int he? Yes And I says to him you're always smiling Yeah you'd think he'd be the last one to smile, but he's always smiling int he, lovely Yeah he is yeah Aye I think he's a lovely lad Yeah I really do Yeah yeah yeah he's wanting his own independence you see Yeah, that's right yeah a bit I'm gonna have a look in that er that er Gonna have a look at er electric shop er in Stock Lane? Yeah we're going, we've gotta Yeah cos we've gotta get back we want some, we want some veg for We have some curtains to do no, I want some of them velour curtains for the bedroom for them I do Oh crikey Oh summat else, some more expense I know Well they're coming in April you know not May left to me I'd take all curtains down stop people looking in yeah Ain't that marvellous? Yeah, so er You won't stop people not giving me much chance to get done what I was gonna do though If you want to stop people looking in your window board them up, like on continent be time Yeah Daft, it's er, it's really I want some of that erm curtains, cos they stop the sun and you know in the, I've got them downstairs and you know they're no trouble, they're great aren't they? They never look dirty No, want some dark curtains Yeah Sun waking up and you're waking and er up about four so er, but I thought we've the sun in the morning That's no good is it? No it wakes you up Yeah so if I get, put some of them in it will not wake her up in the morning That's right Mind you they don't have the sun in the back in the morning do they? It's in the front er it's, it's in the back at the front, I've got the Still bright though int it? Yeah, anyway need new ones for there anyway Want dark, want dark, want dark yes Get some dark glasses for your eyes I do need some because mine are going er Yeah, wants some dark, dark er them buggers in red don't you? er check, you know, there's nothing wrong with them, but faded Awful aren't they? I like, don't like getting them like that and if he gets the new ones Oh I'll get When are they coming? er, er April aren't they? April the ninth For ten weeks April the ninth Yeah, Chris is yeah, yeah She is Chris, she's a coming just with the kids with two kids Our Dave's coming for us, he can't have all that time off, he's coming for three weeks in er That'll be nice, does she like to come back then Chris? Well I think, I think she'll be that fed up being here all that time, she'll be glad to get back to America to be quite honest with you Chris, what is there for her to do all that time? With our Dave not being here either Mm you know Mm, yeah it'll be different if he were here I mean they could, he'd take her all over wouldn't he and every weekend he'd take her Aye, she can drive take her for a drink and everything Is she an English girl Chris? Oh yeah she did live Yeah, mm in Thorne, she's only from Thorne Well she's coming home then int she? Does she like it in America? Oh aye she's coming home to her mum and her mum's here Yeah I don't know why they come here for in this weather it's beautiful there Yeah even this time of the year, over Christmas and January we were outside in the morning having our breakfast every day weren't we Alec? Yeah, every day, rained For a couple of days we had rain rained two rained two days out of six weeks but er that was all in six weeks it's beautiful Lovely climate there innit? Mm That was Christmas and New Year was it? Bit chilly at night like, you know We went Boxing Day we put gas fire on came back February the eighth Yes we had beautiful weather Did you? That was last year of course Yeah yeah Yeah Yeah We're alright letting It's a shame having to go that, that time of year every year alright letting you here at four o'clock in the afternoon, sun shining It's lovely all the year round Jack Yes, yes it's lovely all the year round and it's hotter in the summer like Drinking, drinking gin Too hot in the summer Too hot, it's, yeah Well we haven't had it too hot, we went down, was it the American Independence day didn't we? Yeah oh that were very hot that day We had to sit in the shade out the road a bit we had about that much shade Jack We had, we had bring some water to cool you down it was really hot that day that's about that much wa shade didn't you around the house Yeah but that was er, the worse day we had the sun really The sun right overhead weren't it? That it in that time Sun right above you then weren't it? Yeah it is yeah mind you only short days At that time yeah yeah Oh aye it's dark for, it's dark before half past seven The only, the only thing it has short days Mm, mm Oh Oh it's not dark that early It is It's at eight o'clock I were sat outside Aye but that, yes What mid, in mid summer? eight o'clock I was just Aye, but that was Yes January, December it's, it's, I was sat outside at eight o'clock and it were dark, I could, sat watching traffic lights, there was that much to do I was sat outside smoking watching traffic lights change Dusk dusk Mm dusk here at eight o'clock Mm, oh aye I mean when they come here when they come here it's winter isn't it? it's ten o'clock, half past ten, half past ten you know Oh yeah we've been twice Did you like it? when it gets dark once on our own we don't know what to do and once with the kids Oh do you think it's marvellous? Everybody says that Lovely, yeah it were lovely really good to see you Yeah, we liked it didn't we? What? Disney Land Oh, aye We went to a lot of things Nice and you know it sort, it surprises you so much because I've said we'll go on this moving stair thing er what they call it? Pave remover it is Mm, pave remover Yeah I said we'll go on that to get to this other place, and the bloody things there were shoots of firing and there were Yeah laser,la all sorts going off in there Yeah you couldn't believe it I says God flipping hell what's going up here, then, something going on all the time int there? Yeah Yeah, yeah You're never bored Mm and we, then we went to Universal Studios didn't we? Yeah and er Did you enjoy that? we had Jaws and all that lot you know, there was, they had Jaws on and you're just going round this corner and bloody great water comes up and jaws opens Yeah It's worth going to see isn't it? Oh yeah Mm They reckon that one in, in France are gonna be better When when they it's erm Well that one is more money It'll be the same but it It'll be along the same lines Same, erm I should imagine Because they can probably be more modern whatever they say The kids love it cos It's bound to be newer Mickey Mouse was there and they had their photographs took with Mickey Mouse Mini Mouse And Mini Mouse That's right and er, and then there was erm That's right tt oh what else was there Donald Duck and erm Oh there all, there all Disney characters Pluto and erm all that lot you know there were all Pluto yeah they were all there, yeah, yeah Oh well we'll go and get Yeah we Take off we'll go We will Yeah Yeah we'll go and leave you and see you both hopefully on Sunday are you going Sunday? Aye, I hope so Er yes all being well, yeah, yeah we enjoy it in there mind it gets hot, oh it gets hot Was there many in on Sunday? to cool off it was Yeah, yeah so hot yeah er, yeah were full We were sweltering it was full sun quite full yeah sweating never, was it really? it was oh Yeah my Joyce will tell you that does surprise me Yeah yeah, yeah yeah, have you not talked to Joyce then? we've, we've only seen her that, we've only spoke to her once Oh since we've came home because she was, oh didn't you talk to her Wednesday morning early you know Oh and we were gonna go Thursday to couldn't speak Oh so we rung I see so they weren't going, they weren't going anyway Oh yeah and then Sunday we had a walk round in the sunshine Yeah and I still couldn't Yeah speak so No we thought oh we'll have another holiday Well this is it and get rid of it cos you see Lily, Lily smokes, Lily smokes it's no good Chery going out if you can't talk Lily smokes I know but let's face it you'll want to enjoy yourself love Lily smokes love Iris smokes and you sit between them and they They all smoke and all them fags in Yeah I suppose they were both there weren't they Lily and Iris? Yeah Yeah And they smoke a bit Yeah Lily was, yeah And was Iris and Jack I don't know, I don't think so I don't think they're, I did, I don't Didn't they come other two? No I didn't seem them, might, might of been there I never noticed them Smoke coming in your face Yeah I know yeah, yeah and I thought oh yeah they're usually there aren't they on Sunday? Well she said that you're going to join up at centre and that Lil, and that Lil so I said to me That's, I said that's the best Is Lil gonna join in? I think she is It's humping them int it? I said we'd need a table of your own then I did car park, eh? cos there'll be five of them and there's already four of us cos we sit with Don and I've walked it me Where from? From home Aye that's right Might as well We walk it that's right You never have I have Were nice, yeah It was nice was it? We, eh, every day we walk right round field up Bennett Dork and back through town and back home every day I complain now cos I've got to walk from there, there to Currys They don't believe me I'm not Chery where do we walk every day? Oh we go all ups and down go all over the playing field Oh right round town we Ah these are them anyway, cos them er curtains that were up there for ages were a right mess No do what? So it's cost me, it's cost me for ordering the bloody thing Yeah tell them that you wanted them, and they weren't like the description ain't it? Where's put er I put the rest on there, that's how much everybody's that is and erm look it's the third your third I've had this week They're paying it all back anyway, I mean how do people want, order stuff out of catalogue and send them back They never ever mention them bloody things, they were them windscreen wipers which I ordered before Christmas and it's, it's ridiculous, cos that's, I know I can eh, I know by the er, by the er, that's where I sent them back to that Brian Mill whatever I call it, well Eh? would you credit that lot eh, I say would you credit that, now they're gonna send me another bill for six pound odd for them and two pound, another two pound postage Oh I know what I'd tell them to do an all, returned Yeah,re returned yeah I only got two things, there then Did they say owt and that when you ordered it, did it say that you weren't satisfied er that you'd have postage to pay? No, no it didn't say you'll have the postage to pay Oh well tough then but it's, but er it's on me bill two pound, you know I've got that on er, these two things on Yeah plus two pound postage Never known that before That's what I've got to do have you having to pay postage? I haven't I said so it will, they said they're gonna send the debt collector if, for that two quid it's very serious Oh let them it's two pounds This is now a very serious situation Yeah God I wouldn't chuffing bother about them me, I wouldn't even pay it, think it's disgusting, bloody stuff, what a load of crap anyway, you'd of had it weren't yeah if it weren't Of course I would you wanted it it were er I think it were a big con myself It was especially that bloody thing, right then I will This is all split we'll tape you know, they're going, they want the English language Who does? It's a survey, erm market research thing Mm you know, they come and asked us last week if we'd do it Oh Joyce you didn't fall for that did you? He did Aargh Oh dear He'll get he'll get about should be twenty five pound but she's coming to pick them up today Oh yeah Yeah Oh so oh well it's worth twenty five pounds yes Twenty five pounds Marks and Spencers' vouchers oh that's very good It's been alright in there love Yeah What love? It would of been alright on there Yes it would of been, yeah So you're taping it are you? Yes so you're taped I won't be able to speak now Yes so you're taped, they want the English language they want all different er Where you from Ann? where I'm from? Yeah Collingsborough Collingsborough She's always lived there haven't you? Yeah Oh have you? yeah, I used to live at Snakesborough Snakesborough Oh did you? Oh well Yeah just next door anyway Yeah int it really? the milk, oh we've got milk in Got milk in Have you made the tea love? Oh yes erm except sugar not in There's your sugar, spoon I knew I'd got to do something there's a spoon, oh you cheeky devil, I'm ruddy sweating Same here I know well, this is it they say don't they I've only just made tea you're supposed to of, you're supposed to Just for you chuck Oh they want another then they want another two pound off us for that now for postage They won't love, let's, let's, let's get it over with see what's happening before we start jumping the gun, throws in if there's any good we'll have them I know what it is I think it's disgusting anyway, they don't deserve custom Aargh it's Brian Mil Brian Mills isn't it? It's erm, don't know what it's called is it's Ann? Marshall Ward Marshall Ward they all belong to same don't they? it's Marshall Ward, yeah They're all same How do these go on with catalogues then? They don't send them back, they don't charge postage Postage if, you know if you're not satisfied it goes that's No your priority Oh by mail order Joyce it costs me a bomb for phone calls to them cos they put the long, wrong address on Oh it everything were going to twenty three you see and that Good job they were honest Yeah because they were bringing things here Yeah you know she knew what they were Has that letter come to here then? That letter came to here Mm yeah, but some of the letters have come, in fact they sent me that catalogue you know Mm I don't know if I've shown you it Yeah catalogue, that went up there and call in, call in with it didn't they Alec? Yeah I'll go and get me sandwiches Joyce Oh ain't you got your sandwiches box? No Oh, why'd you left them in fridge? Eat that Oh, right er There's no invoicing note on this does it come after? Oh Alec yeah comes after, it don't come with it, are they alright? Are they the right size? Go and check them and see if they're the right No I didn't they're what? No I didn't Are they the right size then love? So what I'll do I'll send them two pound postage and six pound owe them You gotta wait er bill Yeah I know, you know, there'll be two pound postage on it you can guarantee on it so the crafty devils they are What? they're gonna want another two pounds off us for that Mm, they won't get it off me Joyce I'll tell you They want money, they want two pounds for the first lot which they've had that and two pounds for that and I won't pay it. Bill got his car back last night, put it through M O T Did he? What number is it? That log Er thirty two I think I've got it written down love thirty two Oh do they oh? I've got me dad servicing it Is he? I think he's gonna get it He's servicing it? ready for tonight I think mm Oh you've serv oh ready for M O T like? Mm Oh Yeah Nobody knows what's behind the steering wheel Yeah, seventy five pounds ours I don't like I don't like getting I don't like getting I don't worry about well there were eighteen pound M O T in with that Is it? twenty seven pounds He doesn't do M O Ts does he? He takes it to a garage like you know what I mean and Oh I see and then like if there's oh what a favour on it he can do it, you know what I mean Ooh he don't charge for doing Eh that weren't bad Ann was it? There were What he charge him? It erm Seventy five pounds, which having it for M O T Eighteen pound M O T Yeah twenty seven pounds for parts, thirty pound labour, it come to seventy five and Bill give him eighty Well there were all sorts so of things that er fellow had on Yeah weren't there? Mm Alec you have mine love because I've not made enough tea Who have? and I like mine weak anyway I haven't I don't think they have well that's her you have my cup I know bearings wanted doing erm tt what he said was they wanted packing and greasing and summat, you know Oh, yeah saw it advertising selling er, what you call it, what you call Cavaliers I dunno it's a right bloody size look at them Oh they are aren't they? Mm Who put you them up? The van What is it, she put you on, he, you cut your own bread do you? Yeah Ah, it's not that cut, I like that cut bread do you? I says she says I'll do sandwiches you'll go up and get ready cos we're sat there telling tale Yeah tyres on them Yeah Well they'll fill you up won't they? I was gonna save you some apple pie, I didn't know whether you liked it or er rabbit pie I mean, I didn't know whether you liked it or not Ain't you saved me any? No No God Well what I did, I did two so I put one in freezer, you know cos there's only us two And you've eaten other one but there's only me and us though more rabbit I have your I have your cup do I? Yeah you have my cup Here are There were a whole rabbit and there were some er stewing meat in with it Mm you know er Yeah onions and carrots so it made a, a dish full Yeah well we couldn't eat that Yeah warmed up, so I put a pie crust on, put it in two dishes and put a pie crust on Mm and I've put it and I've cooked it and I put it in freezer Mm one in a casserole dish like Yeah, yeah, oh that'll be nice that does so it's not two in a row yeah, we went right, er we've been right round looking at all shops this week and we've had a right bloody go haven't we Alec? Yeah We went to M F I, we went to erm B & Q, Furniture Factors didn't we? And What you looking for? For bedroom stuff Mhm there's some nice stuff, M F I beat the lot, didn't they Alec? Yeah they do Joyce Mm And erm mind there were nice, nice unit in erm in Furniture Factors Mm it had got a little tiny mark on the door, you know, as you opened it Yes you could see it like, er but it could easily have been filled in with some wood and nobody would know it was there, yeah Yeah, filler of course it could Yeah and were reduced to, was that two hundred and fifty for the lot now, it were lovely weren't it Alec? Mm It were right high one Mm a right high one but it had er, had it got all things on top? Ceiling, is a ceiling too And two, two wardrobes That'll be good then that was good it was beautiful, two wardrobes and a dressing table Mm er get, have a mirror at the back? Can't remember now Mm, it would have It would, two hundred, it was two hundred and fifty pound instead of, that is really worth the money Yeah that Yeah Yeah and then we were looking for some carpeting weren't we? Well we looked at the carpet didn't we? Didn't know whether to, er didn't really see anything, you know that, that I would of Mm I said oh well that, that's lovely Mhm that would go with my suite lovely, didn't see anything really did we? But we only looked in B & Q for that didn't we? No er the din the dining room suites in er Furniture Factory, oh they are absolutely gorgeous Mm aren't they Alec? Mind they're dear oh but they're lovely, you could see your face in them you know Mm they're that highly, there's that, I don't know what kind of wood they are, but they were lovely mm beautiful aren't they? Mm it was I've got mine like that, mine's erm what they call it? With all different shapes? Italian it's like, it's very shiny Mm and it's got like er, marking on them Yeah a bit like Furniture Factors, like a pattern on them, round edge Mm shape like Mm you know what I mean? Mhm er, tt what they call it? Mm, oh lovely them I got mine from dining room centre He's shaking Mm? he's a lot better though he got them tablets, he got some tablets from doctor on Monday when he went Mm and er, he said if he's not better, any better when he goes back in a fortnight he's gonna send him to a chest specialist, but you've been a lot better haven't you? Mm What for breathing this week, only thing is he can't rush Mm he can't bend, or er otherwise he Six died in that ward where Pip were, last week with the chest Bloody hell did he? Six died he were, he were only in a week Oh eh I wouldn't mind but he smoking Yes and then he took badly you know one night, she had place in uproar, cos choose whatever you do Mm she copies Oh yeah so of course they were all coughing weren't they? Yeah Well if you cough she coughs, well she got a right audience you know what I mean just sat here on bed and every time anybody coughed she'd go like this she's just at that age where you cop she copies everything you know? Yeah. Mm So I got some of them velour curtains but I've got the wrong size I'll have to take them back Yeah er you see my bedroom curtain windows they're as wide as this but they're not as deep Mm well I've got ninety drop Mm well its gonna be miles too long No seventy two you want The seventy two will do Mm yeah and er I wouldn't mind the extra width, I don't know if they've got that size in though Well we'll have to go and see mm we've got insurance end of month, er tax at end of month Yeah we've just paid our tax and then insurance beginning of beginning of this month We're gonna have a that car taxed before its M O T runs out Mm, yeah have it I think Yeah No you don't, aye he does No you do like he does M O T them My M O T's due next week Yeah Yeah but he's insuring it this weekend really to be quite honest Ours usually want twenty four and what our garage usually do, if you take it earlier they put down the twenty fourth of February Yeah cos you're owed a month Oh yeah and that garage were at Dave's chuck it the ain't put like date on No, no but you're allowed, supposed to be allowed it so it tallies up with test certificate, twenty eight days Yeah you can take it before Yeah and they should still date it So was it too early then? Mm Oh well they should of dated it for now the date Mm, that's what I says to Bill Oh well next time when you go just go on the proper date that you should go on It'll be out of order then though Will you? Yeah You want your test certificate Oh it weren't due until about twenty fourth of February Ann Well can't you take it back and get it re-dated I don't know Whereabouts have they took it to? I don't know Mention it to that man cos he maybe get it altered, tell her it don't start, well, how, when does it start? Twenty fourth of this month? Mm This month? Yeah Oh well that's That's when the M O T runs out Well that's three weeks I know Oh I would taken it, take it all to it You see it suits us it suits us better for twenty fourth cos if there's owt wrong with it like you've got the chance to do it Mm you know like now we've had it done Yeah and it's gone through well usually Yeah they'll date it from twenty fourth Well they should do Mm yeah , well ours are due Saturday int it? I said to him ring up and We did that, we wrote for a M O T Some places it's twenty five now, it's gone up You paid ten pound last year didn't you? Mm, we did, we paid nine fifty last year Has it gone up that much? Has it gone, has it gone that much? Yeah Aye er they can charge up to twenty five pound Oh one of the lasses at work, work she was saying she, she went and she didn't have enough money, it were twenty two fifty Aargh as well aye, ours wanna s were cheap then eighteen pound weren't it? Yeah I wonder where he took it to, you wanna try Dunscroft down at bottom, see what they do Well Mary got parts from How much they charge? Well they called it, cos of its bill Yeah erm, Stainforth, they must have one at Stainforth for the farm Yeah weekend discounts is it Yeah something like that The weekend discount Yes, er yeah Do you know where it is? It's er, it's the same Yeah near Janet's fifth and thorn Near Janet, oh they might They're open seven days a week Otherwise form two. It just depends what you want doesn't it? Well that's it. I'll I'll, once all of it's gone, I mean if you want it's called. But they they like the cartoons and that, you know. Mm mm. But they've changed that over, but they won't Ooh! They've got a right good offer on at Manor Grove for videos last week, they were er er eight o' clo er they were arriving I think there were only about half a dozen. Mm. Er, eighth of February. No! First of February. Well that that's not the arrangement cos I remember looking Er yeah. and erm it were a long play and it were hundred and twenty nine pound video. Was it? Yeah. Ooh I said, you ought to go get one of these! She says, oh I see enough bloody telly without recording! Because that's where I got Angela's hi-fi from. Yeah. You know? Yeah you did, yeah. With it's compact disc or Yeah. something. Where's my drill? She reckoned Where's that? Leicester. Yeah . You got one of your own ? Couple of minutes. Oh! They might be. I know there was one in but it closed down didn't Mm. it. Is it nice the Manor Grove? Mm. They weren't mixed but they won't bother them. And Oh! all that. That's cheap though int it? Hun It were hundred and twen cos that to, to tell you the truth I was seriously thinking because ours we've Mm mm. had it, ooh! About seven year. Mm. And er I thought well, well I wouldn't pass that one. Do you use yours a lot? Yeah we do. Mm. Mm. We got so that, I mean, especially if we're going out at night and something's Yeah. on that I think's gonna be interesting I'll say oh well I'd like to Yeah. have seen that Well I took you know. most of late films are on er, like and we like to go to bed Yeah. So I said Bill we'll tape that so if there's owt on Mm. on telly Mm. we can watch that like, you know. I don't mind buying any videos No. We don't but we, we do tape. But it's er had it we took round to that fella round Dash Hill there well Alec took it and er he said I'll ring you up in morning and give you an estimate. Anyway, he never rung so, and we went out, that was the day we went out we'd got to go Mm. shopping, we were out shopping from morning till Yeah. didn't get home, well, four. int it changed? And hour ! Ooh! And Joyce, we got it back last Friday and Saturday, I come by car on Saturday and I go away Saturday, then we had to go Friday. Oh! I didn't do any collecting. Started it now. Mm. Er, mind you, what I did You come out? What did you come out for then? Well er no I were working Saturday morning Oh right. so, I says I'll meet you at quarter past twelve Mm. at er Dave Mm. and, I'd got some collecting to do. Well I went to Morrisons we had, I'd got to do my shopping, so by time I got to here Mm. it were half past twelve, so I'd done Mm. no collecting. Mm. Anyway , I says to Di, I'm not doing any in this! You couldn't even see where you had to turn off into street, it were worse Saturday Yeah! morning than it was Friday! But, no it's not worth it. So I didn't bother. if they paid me. My Thursdays is absolutely brilliant! They're spot Mm. on! Never miss your you Mm. can go out and think well I'm gonna pick up six hundred pound today Mm mm. and, I must have collected two hundred at most. Mm. Yesterday. Cos you know, everything just went wrong. To start with Wednesday night one of the customers rang me up And that's your it was good day? Yeah. Sh she pays me fifty pounds, she rang me up she were away to a funeral Mm mm. she wouldn't be in. Then er it was like that all day. Mm. One way and another. Somebody else has gotta get their giro banked pay hundred and thirty quid. I couldn't change it. Ah! Cos you can't change cheques now. pick sixty five pound up he had. Ah! I'll pick it up Monday night. Yeah. It's not this week is it? So No. I'm off to Germany next week. And what do you do about your holiday, well pay then? You get seventy five pound holiday pay. Minus your stoppages. Oh do you? Oh! Mm. They give you a they give you holiday pay then? Yeah. And yet they don't give you a basic wage? No. That's . So, and it's just not very good, it's part of the tax code come in, you know Joyce your tax code? Oh I dunno. Cos they you know when they owe you three hundred and fifty pound and then they had two thousand one hundred on, not getting my car. So I don't know, I don't, I got a tax code now for next year. Oh! Cos you er they put two hundred and four next year it's nil. So everything I earn is taxable. Oh! God! So oh I've only got a year. and then she's finished college anyway. Yeah. I bet you'll be proud of her! I have been but I always go home. You know, glad when she's gone back. You know this government, I don't know what's the matter with this government it seems Yeah. Er it were in paper about this er this woman she'd gone to the hospital and she must have been there longer than she thought, and so she'd got her car clamped and it was thirty pound to have it off but Yes. she hadn't got thirty pound on her. Took her little boy to the hospital. So the attendant says to her, have you got a wrist watch and she hadn't got her wrist watch on, but he spotted her wedding ring and he said, I'll take that and she said, she had to hand her wedding er ring over and she vowed when she put that on that she would never Mm mm. take that off. And then she said here she was hanging, handing it to a stranger and you know what they said So she could get her wheel, get her car back. to get her car back, you know what they said if she doesn't pay that thirty pound within six weeks they'll pawn it! Mm. They'll auction it I know. Well to get her So thirty pound. so that was the wedding ring gone? Yeah. I mean that is the thing yo you know,hope they want to auction like that. Oh I can't believe it! I know they will. And er Quite a few years. It's true that. But now I've just done a refill. Oh do you? Mm. Oh I always give you first cup, I'll have to give you the last one then. No, it's nice this! Oh! I don't know. What did you say Anne there's a programme on it? Yeah. There were a programme on telly about it, making a fortune these clampers! Aye. They drive down, you know our town and cities Yeah. they're driving round Drive to get the fine don't they? Yeah! They're driving round and say, oh we'll have that! Straight away. And what's, what happens is er if you're, if you're on scene they're not supposed to take it clamp it Right. but they were doing you know, and then you'd got to go and claim it back. But it says, by law, if you're on the scene they're not allowed to clamp it's, you know they're supposed to If you're on what? If you're on scene and then Oh yeah! say if you come back and they've said, they're Yeah. just gonna clamp you Yeah. and then they're supposed They stop. to er, you know erm, you supposed to be er, be able to drive away. Yeah. But they're not. They're saying, oh you know, you'll have to come and pick it up. They're on a right bomb! Are they? Mm. Int it awful! Now the council er er the Colonaise the council car park at Colonaise Pete works there don't he? Yeah. Or just started to work there. It were thirty pence when it were, when it was er this fella owned it Yeah. the council's took it over No, the council's took it over, they sold it to this bloke. The council's took it over now and it's sixty pence! The council has because that's who Pete works for! And that's how he's got that job. And what about me paying ten pound fine didn't I? Cos I were twenty minutes over the Yeah. thing. Oh it's disgusting it is I reckon! Disgusting! Well I don't know! Makes you wonder. They have, in fact they're, they're absolutely slaughtering the motorists aren't they? Mm. I mean, all the money that you Yeah! pay, I mean, oh and two pound odd to er petrol! Yeah! A gallon. It's ne there's no need for that is there? No need at all. Our Nicola's been moaning all week! Has she? Cos car's been here since Saturday. Ah! She thinks it's her car Joyce! Does she? Yeah. She thinks it's her car. Oh! But she's been moaning I thought she'd got her own little car? No! No, she uses Bill's car. Oh! I thought she'd got her own. No. Oh! No, wouldn't be alright running a car for her would we? Oh! Well I thought she had a mini. You know she had it bro broken into to, was it your It was Bill's. car? No? She'd got it more than Bill's got it. Oh! I mean, Bill's got a lift all week he he Mm. he would never mo moan or groan because Mm. his car has got to be done No. and her ooh give them a ring see if it's ready yet! Mm. You know. Well don't Bill use it for work like? No. Oh! Yeah. But she uses at night and Yeah. weekends you see. Oh yeah! Oh! She says, I couldn't You know it's like er, George next Yeah. door but one er, his grandson takes off with his car! He's never a car there to when he wants to go Mm. shop or owt, you know. And he plays hell about it! But he still lets him take it! Mm. So I thought, well it's your own fault int it? Well that's Bill that! Yeah. He, I says to her, I says to him I said look, I said you want to tell her when Mm. she goes back to college Mm. that er you're not you know, take her back on a Sunday but you're not picking her up on a Friday, I said she's got a train pass make her come home Mm. on a tra you know, on a train on a Friday. Yeah! And er, but he won't. You watch Yeah. he'll be going back. Yeah. And er, sure enough, will you er pick me up dad? Mm. He will, he'll go and pick her up so soft . Why don't you tell him? Tell her! I've told her! You have, have you? Oh! Mm. You've told her? Yeah. I would say no. Say it Yes. don't matter where ours are, Yeah he does. I mean our little'un's I don't. coming on Sunday but he'll go and pick them up and take them back. Mm. No matter where they are, I'll, I'll, I'll go and pick them up. Mind you, I was surprised that his Yeah! He do! has, his sister, er you ought to come over on Sunday er, I was surprised you said on Sunday cos we, well last Sunday we went and had a drink with them. And she said, yeah didn't she, straight away! Mm. I've just got to take car into Halfords tomorrow to have er the radio cassette put in and Oh! it's all the messing about! Dear God! Is it? Yeah! Erm Mm. I went last Saturday and bought a radio cassette and speakers and Mm. and aerial Haven't you got one? from Halfords. Yeah, there No. weren't one in car. Oh! Oh! Then I bought, yeah, I said I feel as if I've gone deaf you know what I mean, cos there's no Yeah. music in car. Yeah. So, anyway, he says oh he says we'll fit it for you Mm. if you want. Thirty eight pound. Mm. So Bill says, well you might as well let them fit it. Mm. So anyway, we booked it in to have it done Sunday. Mm. Bill takes it through Sunday, he come back the they're special door speakers and you've got to have the front door because there's a bar at back so these are special speakers that Mm. Mm. fit flush. Yeah. So erm anyway, so they said that yo they can order you some ring Mm. them up and let them know. So I rang up they said er, oh we'll order them and we'll get back to you of how much they are. Never rang me back! Oh! I rang up cos they hadn't rang me back er, oh! Er he's gone to Barnsley, cos they asked me to ask for this , gone to Barnsley. So, then th er asked them to ring me back. Never rang me back! So I rang No. him back again Mm. He said, ah! They're spending your money all the time you're ringing them. Ah! I'll see to it, for you. Yeah. Er, I'll ring up after half past four. Whereabouts is Halfords? On ro er Northwich. Oh! Is it? Mm. What, down way, that way? Yeah. Yeah. Is it? Before you get there, it's the big Oh I know. service centre and MOTs and Ah yeah! and exhausts are and that. Mm. Anyway, they were supposed to ring back, they never rang back after half past four. So , Bill gets on the phone, I want to know what's going on, what they're playing at! Mm. So anyway, this bloke says oh I'll chase it up and I'll see what's going on, he says I'll give you a ring in morning. Mm. They never rang! I'm waiting to go and do my shopping Ah! they never rang! So I felt like, I'm not getting on that phone again because I'm talking to different people, you Yeah. have to explain to everybody and Yeah. then they're putting you through, and Yeah. if this Dave's not there they say ring back! I thought I'm going through. Yeah. So anyway, I went through and I said to could I speak to the manager? Mm. And er, ee oh, he, he, he's on the phone, I said I'll wait. Anyway, he come out and I told him all rigmarole! Mm. And I said I bought the radio cassette, bought Mm. and aerial, I says Mm. the speakers I says, then they said they were no good! I said I've been phoning all the time, I said, and I still don't know about it! Mm. So, anyway, erm he went to see this lad, then he says oh I've only just rang up about these speakers, they're eleven pound odd each. I says, fair enough. So er, anyway I booked it in for in morning. Tt! So I'm to get it done. Are you? But, in meantime while I were waiting for them to ring me I were that mad! I thought I'll ring er, G T Motors up, that's one not far from us, so I rang them up and I said, do you put radio cassettes in cars? So he said yes. Mm. So er I said er, I'd got aerial and I'd radio cassette Yeah. and I needed these special speakers. Yeah. So he said, oh I'll find out how much they are. I Mm. says can you tell me how much it will be for you to fit it? Mm. So he says, no. Depends how long it takes me. Mm. So I says well there is an hole in roof for Mm. aerial to fit in. Mm, Oh bloody hell he says! I ain't faffing about with one of them! He says this Mm. they're more trouble than they're worth! He says Mm. if I do it I'd drill hole on bonnet and put it in there. He Mm. said sometimes he says, you've got to take windscreen out if you can't get it down rubber. You know Oh yeah! aerial and that. Yeah. He says, and it'll cost you a fortune he says, cos it takes some time Oh! Anyway, erm but he says er, I can't book it in all next week anyway. Mm. He couldn't tell me a price. No. So I thought well I might as well come Leave it where it is. Let , yeah, let them do it cos they never moaned about it being Is someone coming in then? No, it's next door. Oh! never moaned about it being a roof aerial or owt so Mm. le we'll let them do it. Mm. Why did you go on about that erm place where you went for that beer and you know, you said that we worked for that Oh dear! paper. Have you left ? No. No, I'm not here no more. But they're not advertising, I mean, we keep looking in the paper every week. Oh yeah. There's no advertisement. Int there? No. It might just be saving money? No? No. What do they call that place? Emperor's Rooms. Emperor's Rooms? Mhm. At Conisbrough there? Mexborough. Mexborough? Ah! Oh dear! I don't know! Mm ! I don't know if our Danny's coming down or not tonight. He says he might do, he's fed up. Cos he's Oh really? not working either. Ah yeah! So, God he will be though won't he? Mm mm. No they're up the er, back of beyond, you never see a soul! Don't you? No! They're all like yo like it's, it's a biggish estate, but they're all new houses Oh! but they're all in little cul-de-sacs. You know, there's only Oh! like there's one, two, three, four, five, six and then like seven. Mm. They're three lots of semis Mm. and a detached, that's all there is, so there's only Mm. and they're all working like. Mm. So they don't see anybody. Mm. And their lounge is on back anyway so oh! Mm! So er I've got some, I got them curtains, I got blue curtains to go out What, to go with them? They was to go with them, they we you know, the blues were to go together won't it? These are lovely! Oh ! Are they any good them? I think so, yeah. Fit fit ours anyway. According to this it does. Do you like that, what I've done for our Oh it's gorgeous Joyce! I liked the blue. Int it gorgeous! I mean. Beautiful that! Just got the buttons to go on that. Gorgeous Joyce! Ah? It's lovely that! you to look at it today, good job I've knitted some erm good job I've knit some jumpers for them, they're gonna need them aren't they? Yeah! Yeah. Oh they're lovely! It's not very nice. I've seen the look, the sun's coming through Gorgeous blue aren't they? look! Yeah! Oh they're gorgeous colour them! They just look like velvet when they're open same as there. Ah! Course they do! Same as these, these are no Course they do! trouble. I were gonna say, they wash better than But I've had velvet. I've had to take them up. Cos they were, they were gonna be miles too long. And I've not even took them out the thing. They said he'd swap them if they didn't fit. Ah they do! And he . Where d'ya get them from Joyce? I got them from that er Top Marks. that shop. Top Marks. Top Marks. Oh yes! I know it. But it it sells all so they're only twenty one pound then you know! Top Marks? Mm. Where's that? Twenty one pound odd. Er at market, at market. Twenty o twenty two pound odd. Near market. Them I got there from Solo Mm. were thirty odd, I think I were with you when Mm. I got them rust ones. Used to go in Brooks. They were thirty five and I got these for twenty two I've gone in there . same size! Mm. Saying Yeah! Just shows just shows! you dunnit? Aye. Yeah! Opposite fish market. Mm. You know where I mean? Yeah. Yeah. Mm. I ain't been in town since before Christmas. Have you? We went yesterday, wished we'd . Oh we did! We stood there with nothing in our bags we went for my fruit and veg and er,sto there, met this couple who we know we had a right good talk to them about, it were half an hour weren't we? Half an hour. And erm and then we went and got my fruit and veg and then we went in Top Marks and got them so we never got we went through for a video really, never got round to looking for a video did we? Mm. Mind, we're in no desperate hurry. But, I mean, they sell them round at Dash Hill for erm, they sell them for two hundred and fifty don't, the shops Mm mm. you Mm. know. Erm Tt! I ain't, I haven't got a clue what it , you know that's a good thing Joyce. Is it? They don't have them at it's at erm Home World, and it like. Mm. And er our got a beauty for hundred and ninety five! Mm. Mm. And it's say oh brilliant! What kind? What make? I think it's er Dolstar I don't know whether it's Amstrad or not. But it's, it's like er, one of them dual bar ones, right easy to set. Are they? Just run a thing across it. Oh! Oh aye. It's right easy to do. And it's long play as well. Is it? Mm! You can put a four hour tape on and put it Yeah on long play and it lasts us eight hours. Yeah! It's good innit? It were only two hundred pound! Crikey! That's not bad then is it? No. No. It's a lovely thing! But I could, one of Dolstars for hundred couldn't we? I'm sure that was two hundred and fifty round here. That one's attached to that. He is. Yeah. He is. Yeah. I know she He says when yo he says when you're er and what were it like? No good? Well it, yeah it was. But it Was it? didn't last long as Hitachi. No. Andrew's got another He says one now. He says when you've had a er video about seven years Mm. he says, you know,th they're about ready for renewing or parts Yeah. renewing didn't he? Well, when he came out I thought it were er tape heads that had gone. Mm. And anyway, he says, no, he says it's not it's the motor. Yeah. Cost me thirty quid, a new motor and summat else. Mm. Never had new tape heads in. You haven't? No. No. He just cleans them up every time he comes out, either Mm. to see to the telly or video, you know. Mm. And er I says to him, I says you know,wha what do you think? Do you think it's worth doing? Mm. He says, it's a brilliant set this! Did he? That's what he said. Yeah. Mm. Says definitely worth I think the spending thirty pound on. I think the Hitachi are, are good aren't they? Yeah. You know video's Hitachi. It's the same as erm th The they were a bit dear. Yeah! I think they're about three nine nine, but they were Yeah. dearer anyway then then yeah originally weren't they? Yeah. You know, the But even in Millers, we went and looked there was supposed to be a sale on they're not much reduced are they? Yes! And cos I went through Did you? And they were over three hundred pound. I know. I think it's dear in Millers. Yeah! It is. They must th they must think you're thick! I mean, we used to get Yeah. all our stuff from Millers didn't we? Yeah there's, yeah we have had a lot. They're ever so dear now! They're opening that big place Yeah we have had a lot. it's not a family business any more. No! We've had a lot of stuff from Millers! Yeah! Got our er microwave from Millers didn't we? Got the microwave. We got we got And I got televisions from Mi Millers didn't we? Ah well I got my freezers from Millers, and I got my fridge. Er I know, that was from Millers And they are really Fridge. dear now! Yeah. Not like it used to be. Yeah! Telly. In fact, I looked at Currys' prices, cos Currys' were a, and Currys looked as if they were the cheaper Mm. er I know that turbo power er hoover, it was a Mm. hundred pound. Do you know er But Currys were always de dearer than Millers. Different people who you speak to though Joyce Yeah. not just round here but er asking, and like, I've had our Yeah. Kim's husband Ian th when they were shopping round for different things and Mm. you can hear them and that's where your thingybob were. yes. Mm. I'll give them a ring. I know our erm er Dean, our paid Apart from that you can get on weekly can't you there? he's paid twelve hundred pound for this erm camcorder Yeah. and er I think it were about fourteen, fifteen hundred different places. He went to Comet and it were fourteen hundred. Mm! Mm. You know, and he's got it from But Comet's, Comet's gone I noticed that's I said ours is I might just that is a smaller, smaller shop give it him. Mm. now it's got big shops they're, they're to they're top of the range and all now. They used to be Yeah. Anyway there's a advertisement in there for Grays at Bentley and, it were funny because Jack and Sherry who we were talking to yesterday, they said that shop in Bentley didn't they? Yeah well they're just a family business. Yeah. And it said it's a family business. Yeah. And it said at prices we can a you can Yeah. afford. Yeah. They'd so they'd sooner Yeah. make twenty pound rather than lose order. Yeah. You know? Yeah. When it's a business like that. Mm. So erm So er, I might, I might give our Mark a ring and see what he's got in there. Mm. Oh! Might go and see him a shall we go right through to our do you think that Mark can be closing next week? Well it's pa parking there int it? Well you can park in front of Iceland er, I can always go Oh aye. Gotta pay That's what about two quid to go and park there you might as well ring him ! Cos we'd have to to go and pa go and park in here like. And and it costs us a bloody bomb! It does! Costs you about ten pound do it? Yeah! Mind It's not free parking at all! Mind you, you've got the stuff haven't you? So Ah but what it means, I've got to walk around and look at it this and look at it that! Well we could do with some lollipops couldn't we? Some chocolate lollipops and what have Are the kids coming? Mind you, it's er No. two or three, two month innit, yet? Yeah. They'll not be co they're not coming for, at all at the beginning of April, and that's if, it's not that long. It's er, February, March. Mind, that's when Yeah. we have baby int it? It's quite April? I can't wait! Oh! Is it April? Mm! Oh! Er April nineteenth it'll be, well that's Easter int it? Oh! Oh! Easter. Mm! So we'll be up there, for Easter. Yeah! Yeah. Could have a party of your own. Oh yeah, April , April erm Easter's late this year int it? April the nineteenth. Sevent Mm. Nineteenth, yeah. Cos after, our er That caravan site don't open till then you know! Don't it? Yeah. No! It don't open till that weekend. Used to be always the first of April. Open the first of April. Yeah. Yeah. Mm! Yeah. And well it were early one year, March last year wasn't it? March! Yeah it was earlier Yeah! it was earlier still Yeah the last year. Yeah. Cos well, if Easter's early they open early don't Yeah. they? But erm They must open for Easter then? Yeah they do. So that's it then? Yeah. Easter's late, they're opening late. Yeah. I know it always used to be the first of April though. Yeah ! God! But erm I mean caravan season, it goes quick enough don't it? I mean, most places open in March! Yeah. You know like all of Skegness. Well some , I know. They're But all open in Yeah. March! Mind you, cost them Yeah, and the week afterwards. cost them a lot dunnit? Cost them nearly about a thousand And a fortnight afterwards. pound for Skegness now you know. Yes. It's a lot of money. It is. Yeah. And all the ones Booking. in er, oh, all different rates! What they actually charge. And er, I know they want over a hundred pound just for a caravan for a week don't they? At Skeggy Two hundred. Yeah! They need it though really don't they? Well it depends how much. Yeah. Cos our Darren he said, like, he says I want to that babe like, they won't go abroad this year with having baby coming No. and he says, they'd really like to go in a caravan he says to show Mm. that we've had holiday like, you know? Yeah. Just to have a break. Yeah. Mm. Anyway er so I said well you can come down home like. He says yeah but then you come down home and like, they have to go visiting everybody. Mm. Do you know what I mean? He says It's not a rest is it? He said it's not a rest. No. No. And er anyway, I says, Darren, I said they're wanting about two hundred and odd pound for a caravan you know! Now. Mm. Mm. So, I says an I says you're working I said Not at they're not though. Oh no! and I says why don't you, no, but like If you want to go to Skeggy it's a lot. Well what's the rush? Yeah. You know like Scarborough, it's dearer Yeah. for there That's right. it really is top mark int it? Ah yeah! Yeah. Yeah. D'ya know what I mean? He's Yeah. he is nearer that way than us Mm. or summat, to Scarborough and that. Mm. I says erm yo it'd be cheaper to go bed and breakfast! So, he says Yeah. yeah but it won't be as convenient with baby like. Well, they can relax and have their meals when they want, get up when they Yeah. want, and if their baby wakes at night they can just go Yeah. and see to it can't they? I says I think, this year, you'd be better off stopping at home. Mm. I says, because er you know, with him like working so he's, he's having a week off with Yeah. baby int he? I said and th erm Mm mm. and go out and that, if you want to come down for a couple of days. Mm. You know, I think erm rather than they paying all that money for a caravan. Yeah. So mind you, they're on about getting their own car. Are they? He wants Orion Ghia. Wants Oh! That's the one So we're going for. Not that bad. work be getting done won't it?behind it. So I says what we might do, we might buy his off him. Cos it's Mm. not got a lot of miles on. Oh! It's only got about twelve thousand miles . Has he? Were it new? F reg Fiesta it is. Can they do that then? Can you sell that? Isn't it firm's? No. No. Oh! I see. It's alright. It's his own? Ah! Yeah. It's er F reg Fiesta. Is it? One point four sport it is. It's a Mm mm! lovely car! Mm. It's got all extras in, the lot, you know the Mm. and er Well it's big enough, a Fiesta, for you anyway. Well he ta Int it? he I should of thought it were big enough for them but he said Yeah! when, he says when they come down he said it's loadened with all our stuff! He says, so when we get baby seat on back Yeah, as well. Yeah. And then all baby's stuff, he said Well they've got a boot! So Ah! That Orion's got a lovely big boot Astra it is. hasn't it? Yeah. I drove that Orion. And I went up centre with it. Cos he were going somewhere with David when you over. Mm. And I went to centre in it, it were lovely! You like it didn't you? You liked the new one, you don't like the first one you had? Aha. You had two Orions didn't you? Yeah, and then the first one I First one he didn't like it. Got a smaller horsepower weren't it? Mm. I don't know, but I know he wanted it. about the turbo or summat. Weren't as good as it, it weren't as good this one that I, weren't as good as ours for petrol. Well no! That's just great for petrol. Ain't put no, ain't put no petrol in mine for three weeks! Yeah. It's ever such a good car for petrol. It really is. Yeah. You know like going to Cleethorpes and back, how you do Yeah. er i it's great Yeah. for petrol! Well that's what you want int it? Mm mm. I fill it up It's great for petrol! That's it. And he filled up and it only cost me five to tenner a week. And we never walk nowhere do we? Never walk, even No. at the caravan we never walk, we always go in he even goes for paper in bloody car, him! Yeah. You know, it's only round corner innit? The car? Well you start going for the paper and seeing how you like walking right under the ! I don't mind it. I don't mind walking round camp. Ha! I don't mind walking round camp. Don't you? I'd rather, well you don't see not if you're in car all time, do you? I do. No. You can't see anything when you're in car! oh it's nice to have a bit of fresh air! Well no, you just Yes. said you would go like. I wonder what time what they call it's coming for that? Is it off? Yeah. Is it? I don't know. Maybe I'll go out tonight. She said afternoon didn't she? But This is she didn't come while we'd just come in from It were Thursday weren't it ? Yeah, we'd just come in from town as well hadn't we? Yeah. till about four o'clock. Mm. Oh dear! Oh dear! Mm mm. That's got to go in that's horrible that is! Is it? Too strong. Oh! But it's cost me over, well it will have done by time I've finished putting radio in, about hundred and forty pound. Yeah! But I can't cope without my radio Joyce! Can't you? Cos you think I've gone deaf! Mm! You got er a, battery rad er radio cassette or something? Couldn't you put it on Well they don't it don't sound the same does it? Don't they? Ah! It's better with er speakers You know. yeah. Yeah. I mean I've got one at home what . Well we listen to ours a lot though don't we? What my radio,rel radio or, er electric or, I've got one at home electric or Yeah. battery. Yeah. But, I thought, oh! Oh! Well anyway, do I might as well. if you just leave it stuck out, stuck outside somebody's liable to break in aren't they, if they see Yeah. like that? So I thought well I got it kind a three year haven't I? Mm. Don't change Have you? it for three year. Well in any case when you So when you take it you take that off don't you? Yeah! I said to In that case. David, if I'd have known I'd have took wha other one out. Ooh! You could of couldn't you? I'd take other one. Yeah! You could of done couldn't you? Cos it were a good'un that! Ah! What a shame. But I mean, I didn't know they were all coming. But apparently what's happened is Didn't even know you were gonna be getting another one. in January the, she were telling me they delivered hundred and fifty nine new cars. Mm. New Metros. Yeah. So they must have, done them a de done a deal of whole lot Yeah. cos they were Mm. bigger engines than others what we had. Yeah, but you actually know that they weren't gonna have a Are they? radio cassette in there did you? They have engines. Ah! They'd be better engines, a better Yeah. car then won't they? Eleven hundred, yeah. Oh yeah! Yeah. Oh! So, well they must have like done a deal and said right, we'll not put radios in or summat, you know we'll Yeah. Oh! do without, so I thought oh well! Will it be yours now when you, when you take it in do you take that out don't you? Mm. Mm. So I will. Yeah. Sometimes I've they don't tell you though do they, when they come to change them do they? No. That's a very snidey that isn't it? They come Tuesday before you know. You know when I were up at Darren's Mm. I mean, if I'd have been, If I'd have know I could of coming back down cos Bill came back down to work Tuesday Yeah. and I stuck it up here then when it comes through, they brought the car on the Tuesday Yeah. when I were up at Darren's. Cos she told me when she came. Oh! She said I brought it last Tuesday Oh! she said, and you weren't here. Oh did she? Mm. So, and they rang up, Darren ra er he rang me up Monday morning, and he says can you get in office for half past ten? I says, yeah. He said they've just rang up they're bringing your car. It's alright that's You know I don't know what I've done with that It's alright in the photograph! background there. Do you know I'm ever so mad about it! Cos I What? I should look after my bills! For what? Oh oh! For that curtain! Well what did you want it for? Well you've still got price ticket on haven't you? I never even touched it! So, well the price ticket will still be on. Everything's well I've not touched Well that's not there. it, it's still as it was actually. Yeah. They're Yeah. not bothered as long as Twenty one ninety the price thing is still here. Where do you want ? You worry too much for it'll be alright. Mm. He said don't, if you look after it you know, it's a does the colour change in it? And he said, yeah, if you look after it Ah! Yeah! keep the cardboard inside, you Yeah. know. But we haven't even opened it. But like he said and yo and your bill, your receipt and I've forgo I've lost the bloody receipt! It's not in bag is it? No. Mm? Not in bag? No, I've looked in the bag. I don't know what I've do cos I, don't I keep my receipts? It were that skirt weren't it? I mean, we found it after I took it back. Yeah! Yeah! So it's my mam's birthday soon. Yeah. This time See that I'll get money. Well she's got bills from, for Gateway and I mean who says Oh I'm just looking at bottom of my bag there, there was, there was bills from Gateway, that was from last year. You know my shopping bag? Yeah. My, my cloth shopping Yeah. shopping bag? There was all these bills in the bottom from Gateway, I said look here Mm. from Gateway. Yeah. And I threw them, I just cleared it out and threw them away yesterday. We go to Morrisons now. It's brilliant there! Is it? Mm. Mm. Don't you go to Kwik Save? Kwik Save's quite good. Er I go to Kwik Save and I come back That's really cheap. and there's, there's nowt for a meal when I come back. Ah! You know, if you went Yeah. to Yeah. Morrisons and Yeah. like you come back without your stuff, I mean especially we're like that aren't we ? you know like the fridge it's full of food Mm. like a su like I get my cooked meats and Mm. quiche, and all my salads Mm. and stuff, I get all my veg Mm. and then er like, they do Kentucky Fried Chicken in here, sixty five pence Joyce! It's like Mm. that! Like Mm. half a chicken! All breast. Mm mm. Er, sixty five for breast, and I think they're about fifty for the legs. But they're, they're done in that lovely savory batter stuff, you know what I mean? Mm. They're all cooking while you're there. Ah yeah! So like, I'll fetch them like for us dinner Mm. and er tt you know what I mean, the fri fridge is full. Yeah. And Yes. like I put my Stuff to go out . put my meat in freezer let get it for week Mm. you know what I mean, and put Mm. in there. Mm. Whereas like if I'm out, at least I get a bus down, go into to Kwik Save Mm. there's nowt for a meal, you've still got to go to Coplands Mm. and buy all the Yeah. Yeah. stuff and in butchers and Well even when you go to Kwik Save yo I mean, you come out, and you've got to come out to get meat, cos in a Mm. different thing Mm. you've got to pay for your vegetables Yeah. as you go around don't you? I know. You know what I mean? So I mean, like I like buying stuff from the market a lot of the stuff I get all my a lot of the stuff's cheap cheaper at Kwik Save. Yeah, I mean ten oranges for fifty P yesterday. I know! Ten! For fifty P! I mean that's absolutely So fantastic that int it Yeah. for ! I mean Well it's I thought it were only I get them off of my thirty P, yeah, Coxes. And pears were only twenty five. Yeah. I mean, last week my barrow were absolutely loadened up Mm. and it were fifty five pound. Mm. We bought loads of stuff! I got Mm. erm a lovely piece of middle leg pork for Sunday there were erm a piece of turkey breast, a bit like a joint Mm. you know with all the skin put round. Mind you, that's good for fifty five pound innit? No, but like Bill, he'll go down to Tescos Mm. right? Mm. Then go to Coplands then to go to market Mm. and erm I leave him about eighty quid, cos there's six of us Yeah. Mm. and yet he comes back and there's nowt for a meal, and there's hardly any change! It's true! Ah, ah ah God ! It is! Like, there's two hundred and sixty with that. Oh yes. But like, and then I have to go again on Tuesday to Tesco! Yeah! I go again Tuesday. Tesco's dear! So we have Tesco's dearer than Kwik Save Yeah! int it? Well I think it is anyway. Oh it is Joyce! Mm mm. It is. But But I do love the bacon from there! Th you know the But it bacon that you Yeah. to cook? You know, er Yeah. to slice Oh it's so nice ! beautiful! Yeah. So tasty! Yeah. I've never had anything better You know what I got? that. Er yep. And Bill had cooked it last night and it were really nice, I bought it last week. You know, Bill always goes down on a Tuesday Mm. and, there were a big family meat pie and it had Mm. been one fifty nine I think, or one ninety nine, they'd got a special price Mm. ninety nine pence. Mm. Anyway, I thought ooh I'll get that! And put it in freezer. Mm. Cos Bill can't cook, you know, he's a terrible cook! And er, I thought, oh he's only got to put that in oven Mm. you know, I'll, I'll buy Morrisons' frozen chips, they're lovely their chips! Mm. And so all he's got to do, he can't spoil it. Mm. And er anyway, when I got in from work last night, he'd done carrots, sprouts, cabbage, mashed potatoes, and he'd done this pie. Mm. And it were right nice, and he'd done some lovely onion gravy! Mm mm. Couldn't believe it! Mm! Cos Monday Is that Morrisons that's er, opposite Nettows at Anthorpe it is int it? No that's Grandways Oh! Grandways ah yeah! And erm There int a Morrisons round here is there? I don't know. No, I ain't seen one. The nearest Morrison is down erm No idea duck. going down towards er, when I used to go down towards Walthe er down er near Bath, that way. What you Yeah. call it? I don't know. I know nearest to us it's erm, tt you know where we used to work at Bramley. You know when we used to work, go to Southern Trust they built a new, big new Morrisons there didn't they? Oh! It er Next to Macros. Yes. No! Bramley. When we used to go to Southern Trust. We used to go to Southern Trust? Faircroft didn't we? To office. Yes. Yeah. Faircroft Mm. Well you know by those garage we used to use Ya. well Yeah. it's in there. Ah yeah! Well I used to go to that one. Ah yeah! And then There was one there. they've built a Mm. another one at Retail World. You know, Parkgate Mm mm. Mm. They've built another big'un there. Mm. So I go there now to Mm. that one. Cos it's Ah yeah! nice you know. Mm. Mm. But erm Morrisons on Monday er Bill, he'd er cooked fish, er er there was some frozen fish what I'd got him like. Mm. Tough as hell it were! Chips with them Morrisons' chips, and they are really lovely but he'd left them in Mm. too long so they're too crisp. Ah! The peas well they were like bullets! Yeah? The frozen peas, but and he says, said what he'd done he'd Mm. put them in Yeah. instead of putting them on to cook put them in to defrost! Oh! So, by the time he'd sort of looked and it were defrosting Yeah. they're not as nice if you defrost frozen peas and then cook them are they? No, you're supposed to cook them from frozen. You know, so they were like, they were like bullets! Yeah. So the fish were horrible! Mm. The chips were so crisp and dry and then, then, and yet last night He did all that. Yeah! And i and it were lovely! Yeah. Sure your Nicola, are you sure your Nicola didn't do it? What do you say he did? Last night? Mm mm. He did mashed potatoes Mm. cabbage, savoy cabbage, carrots and he'd cu cut them like I always cut them cos they were only them little baby carrots so, what I do I slice them down Yeah. you know, down middle like Yeah. into quarters so I do them longer Yeah. and he'd done them like that in microwave for eight minutes and er, done sprouts then he'd put this meat pie in oven Crikey! and er, done onion gravy! Mm mm! I says, ooh this gravy's lovely! Yeah! He says er, yeah he said I did some onion, and then, I got some of them, you know Granules? yeah, put some of that in Mm. he says, I put a bit a Italian mixed herbs in middle of meat pie in my hand, put them Mm. and a bit of Bovril. And it were lovely! Done that, done all that! God! ! Yeah! And was that meat pie alright? It was it were lovely! Sometimes you get them and they're not very nice are they? No. But I tell you what we've got fish But we don't have meat pie us, cos we don't normally No. it's the gristle on it, it's that tinned meat, but that were Yeah. mince Joyce. Yeah. It were mince. Yeah. We got some nice fish from er Kwik Save. It was was it Bird's Eye Alec? And there was, I just got a packet of I don't know. two in to try, it Yeah. were lovely weren't it? Really lovely white meat! Oh , ah yeah! that we've had for a while. We got it last week cos we finished Nice! our fish from Cleethorpes now and, we're ready for going again to get some more. But you see what he'd done he'd, he'd had it out a freezer since four o'clock since he come in Oh! from work Ah! Well I didn't get in till half six so by time he'd put them Ah! in Yeah. supposed to cook from frozen aren't you? Yeah, you're better cooked from frozen. You know Yeah they are. cos once they've thawed they go soft Yeah. do they? They were disgusting! I it's different if you have it raw if you ha you buy Yeah. the raw fish Yeah. and we have to put it out to so till we've thawed because Yeah. it has water in it, like doesn't Yeah. it? And then you get the water all So Yeah. But I thought, well I . Well he tried, what more do you want? Well, yeah! He doesn't though, he doesn't, he just bungs everything in, know Yeah. what I mean? Er, really we're better off But last night er wa bringing them, er it were lovely meal! do them on, on er full power in microwave The peas? and then, mm, and then That's what he normally does, but he had said and then put them on five minutes defrost. he says it were broke, microwave! He said I know I put it on full power. I know I didn't put it on to defrost. I know I didn't! He says it's broke! So, I cleared it, press power level and Yeah. nine and it come Yeah. up! Yeah. He said, but said that he'd pressed, he didn't Yeah. press defrost and he Yeah. pressed power level nine. Oh well! You know, but He weren't to it. He weren't! He won't. Yeah. He said, microwave's broken. There's me, you silly bugger ! Yeah. Well it's insured, I've insured it for twelve Yeah. months but it'll not cost Yeah. us owt. Yeah. And er, oh I'll just try it, so I Mhm. so I put peas back in Nowt wrong with it? No! No! Pressed wrong button! It's easy done. alright. Yeah. It's only him can do it like! Oh eh! You know what he did last night? Run over a dog! Ooh! Bill come out er a here with car you know you could round with pub Yeah. comes round here this, this dog just shot out and hit car Oh! anyway, it'd done something to its leg! Did it? Yeah. Lad come out and he said it's, it's hurt his leg. Mm. So Bill says, well I you know it just shot out Just can't help it. didn't even see it like. I mean, look at me, I were going down Dunscroft there, you know at top of and er I'm just driving in along and this bloody dog come over Mm. straight in fron come straight in front of my car like that, and I missed that one but then the other one come! Mm. There were two together. I had no chance And I know but it had the one before, it were it were wrapped around chassis underneath! It were screaming Mm! it were still alive! Oh eh! They had to give me a brandy, I were in a right state me! Oh! Yeah. They took me in this bungalow Mm. anyway, what had happened, dog had shot out Mm. weren't Bill's fault No! You can't, oh you can't help it, it's like and er anyway this one. Bill rang police up and he says, oh he said I've just run over a dog! He says only one? Mm. Oh! He says, try and get a few more! Mm. He says they shouldn't be out! He says they cause more It's true. er damage It's true! I mean they shouldn't Mm. let them, you know, run like loose should No. they er when people a you know, on main road. No. In fact, they shouldn't let them, cos they don't know where their dogs are gonna go do they? No. They're not bothered are they? No! It's their Well dogs and then they get anyway upset when they get run over! he's on about dog's leg being bad and Bill's had a look see if he's dented car cos he'd just Ah. fetched it Aye back! Ah ! No. But he were shook up when he come in. Yeah. In fact he didn't know whether it were a child, he says you don't know when it's dark. No. No. And it just sho you know No you don't. No. went in front. Anyway No it's I'd better go and get some work done Joyce! Well it does well Cloudy. well the sun's come out for you now Yeah. so See you again love! Tarrah! No. Ta-ta! See you next week! Yeah. Urgh! Urgh! Well that Metro will be alright if it's be bigger engine won't it? She said it's brilliant! Yeah. She says it's good. But I don't like the look of it. Don't you? No! I don't like look of it. Sounds alright from here. Yeah it does. Sounds alright. Well And they er I'm not putting it right close though. You know, sort of give it a good chance. Yeah. And er I've set the bucket as well. Well they'll all be fighting for life all of a sudden You see they're not gonna get a lot of chance though because we get a lot of sun here. Where? Here. You only get it at Be better at the back there really won't they? It's winter now like! Yeah but, you see, they get more sun there look, can you see? Not there. At the bottom. Yeah but you've already had them there once. Yeah, I had them there last year they didn't open! And they'd been they'd been a dead lo they were a dead loss weren't they? Yeah! They didn't open. I don't know why. Ah. We'll have a sandwich or something then, ah? Do you not want another cup of tea with the ? No, I'm not bothered, are you? Yes. I'll do a cup of tea anyway. Ah well I've have one if you are making one. Oh! That's twenty three. Yeah. Can you see? Bit early for a spirit. Mm. I mean it's not costing two pound to send that! Well you haven't gotta do for that yet! I know but they a they'll send, they'll either want two pound for sending that! We're sending everything separate so then, when you get your bill Yeah. Anyway if they only want one, two pound I'll send it, we'll send eight pound off for them if they're any go any go if they're alright then. I'll send two pound postage. Put it in, in there leave that so it's . Haven't I got some bread that's open? That's a new one that int it? Is it? I dunno. It is, yeah. La la la la la la la . There's snooker on. Eh? The damn snooker's on! Snooker? Yeah. Mm. We'll have a look at today's paper and make sure it's what that time it's on. Are you gonna have a bit of this stuff on some toast Alec? No thanks love. No? No. Do you want a then or something ? No thanks Joyce I'm I'll have a cheese sandwich. You want a cheese sandwich? Yeah. I think I did in first place, I must a forgot to change it. Put it on defrost to get out of carton. Yeah. Where is it anyway you're having? It's erm just a mixture. Tomato and onion er mush I put some mushrooms in, cos I like my mushrooms er don't you want any? Aye. And I decided on cheese! You what? I decided on cheese! Did you? Are you? Yeah. There's some open here if you want that other one? Cos I'm taping aren't I? Oh another one? Oh! How many tapes is that then? Six? Mm. Six? You can smell them onions can't you? Mm mm. Mm mm. You asked me if I wanted salt out and I said yeah, so you don't get it out! I took it out without asking you though. Oh! I were that busy taking things back and I got them out. Mm mm. Gonna be able to manage that? Lovely! It's that stuff I made last year and you know, I went to market alright. Mm mm. You gotta Radio Two with that. Bloody pirate station wouldn't you? No, I know. Keep moving it! Mm? . Er ha . This my ? It is open, yeah. Eh? Get back on to Classic Gold. Aye. You could ask there. Who went there. If they went again to that place and what they've and got the same things? Could ask there couldn't you? Yeah. But these are, they only, these are, these aren't what no, they're, they were lovely ! What better than were they? Oh well I oh aye! Those were pancake roll. Or a pancake. Or a pancake There were just enough pancake there it were they were covered Covered at the sides. covered over. And you fill it with fill it . Turned over like I had. Yeah. Just Oh are they? Yeah! Ah! Savory pancake. Ah! I know these er dumplings, taste like , you know. Mm. Mincemeat. Ah? Mincemeat? Mincemeat. You know, they're in stuffing. Mm. And use stuffing like sage and onion, something like that. Yeah. I've tried, I've tried to make it while you were working but I were wrong. Mm. I remember you had to check make it . Yeah. And I can't make it, that's right. I try and make a . Well you can't er the sauce, you can't go and buy it then can you? No. Because they look like . You don't? No. I don't like it. Well yo used to like it with sage in. Used to put some sage in, sage and onion stuffing in with some and you used to like it didn't you? Mm. and then you don't let me put enough sage in! No, so you don't put sage and onion in mincemeat when you're cooking it. Mm. Both of them sweet peas coming up! Just starting to poke through. Mm. You gonna put two in each of them on the Yeah. ? I'll put one in each, ah, one or two in, in the things in the Yeah. and then I'll put th you know the in between them put one in there as well. And some in between there as well? Oh! So we had perhaps they'll go right down as well won't they? And that no. They won't go down . Well just be in one, er sort of the side or something do you know what I mean? Mm. Well I didn't know how to get rid of, you know I thought I don't get any more, that's it. What I'm getting should be it, it should do. Eh? There's a lot of er, manure and stuff advertising in here I've found . Yeah I know, it's all straw innit? Oh eight, eight eight pound fifty for ten pound. It's all straw. Is it? Yeah. Er they've got mushroom compost Oh have they? in here That's not bad. ten bags for eight fifty or, ten bags for ten pound. Yeah. , you know. Mm? Still, if we're going for around . Make a bit of make the soil better round the back. Ah! This soil should be buying stuff as soon somebody . was ever such compost int it? Yeah. Well I shall do some stuff down this garden. This one here. Which one? Yeah. Keep saying that, but we get some good stuff from there. Eh? We get some good stuff from there. Yeah I know, but I think you're right . Water. Yeah. Oh! Yeah! Well, before you see we haven't had no No, don't get a lot of but we haven't had no water don't get a lot of water with it being, er,are a bit hard for see they've all got paths down here. Well over there there's a, there's a er, antirrhinum growing right over in the corner there, at the back. Antirrhinum growing. And I broke it off, I thought I've got a I've got that clip that old piece, the other piece put it on better and underneath it there was a a hyacinth, and with it being sheltered Mm. been coming lovely! Mm. So is a putting them down here and not being able to see them Are they doing them though. What? Hyacinth's growing through to them. I'm not saying it was! Oh! It was. No I know it's a, it's a and we've got those snowdrops coming up here. Have we? Just a few. Well I hope the others are all . I don't know where all over in that corner. Well I put some in here. And these are coming. Oh! Thought we'd dig it all up and move move it all over the place won't we? Well we'll have to move it all won't we? Look, there's little snowdrops coming up here I've seen I looked today, they're coming up. Snowdrops. Against that . Just top can you see top like Yeah. they are, like they are in , you know? Yeah. Against that first primula, and around Yeah. it, the Yeah. snowdrops. And then, just past it the . And that's over there. But there's not many, I mean, there should be more than that. I mean, I'd there were a lot, weren't there round there? Well they're it's probably because you packed them all in there too tight. Well I Probably reverting back to and . Yeah, we was at caravan when they were out weren't we? Last year. Yeah, we were Mm. Well they might a little bit later then. Don't suppose they're any good. Cos them our given us are all up! They might have been treated them, to come up earlier. Eh? I don't know. Well they're all coming up! Look! They're all th round there, round that dahlia they're coming up in the corner over there, and there's some here, and I think they're all coming . They don't look a bad colour as though do they? Aye, it's wet though int it? Is it? Well it's bound to be damp. Mm. In summer it gets dry and it goes like like. flowers. Were they alright? Are they up there then? Oh! I've got But, I don't know why. Well I'd say so anyway, make them . We'll have a ride in tomorrow with change your curtains and . Oh I know! Don't know where I've put it. Looks as though it had been cut out for some reason. It does, don't it? Is it collar? Well I think it's probably off that other pattern. Well I do, I'm waiting for two patterns aren't I? Looks like er making for a collar don't it? Yeah. I'll keep that though because I don't know if . I'll put it in here. Mm. I'll have that stapler. And I, if I see anybody I'm not gonna stop and talk to them! could of could of walked on . Mm. And every time, every time I'm glad she's starting summat else ! Mm mm. And then we went and had a look in that that er tape thing. Yeah. No, so it will be possible talk to them then? Yeah. It's alright to talk to him you know i giving you, just give you that bit of extra warmth without er The weight. Mm. Well that weight, that weight it's just it felt comfortable to wear. Right. Might as well go in behind if there's football mightn't I? Golf on here. You what? Golf. I thought it was snooker on? What is the time? Don't know what time snooker comes on. Twenty past two you said. Yeah. It's sport sport. Sport on a Friday afternoon Friday afternoon sports or summat. Mm mm. There's only Errol Flynn on other but they're black and white. Is there? What time's that then? Ah? Steve and Anne. That's it. You seen these presents? Yeah. Not been through much have they? Since had that and they had er . I know! I don't know, it's she might have had. I am wondering if I should What? Well I'm going to be Reckon I should Oh aye! You shoot, you shoot from the ground. Did you buy a remote? Francis, I'll show you how to make them shoot. You don't even have to hit them off the ground. It's like these . You stay in the for Right. You hate that. That goes on disk two. What? There. This one? This tape goes in, into to it. One goes in the . That's alright. Leave it. There you are. Have you mastered it yet? I try to come round the second thing. Second one. On the arrow one On num number one. they erm you . Aha. But, it's trying to . He's not . Instead, you're being one. Mhm. But you're definitely not losing his, his cool. Aha. His cool? Yes. There's one anyway. Oh! Ee! You see the with it. Er, ha ha ha ha. Hit it! Hit it! A number. You're going over? Yes I know. Really quick. It's nice though. Erm or do you go in? Yes. Maybe yous can't get it's er What do you mean? Take it to our tanks. Yeah. Hit it! Hit your base. Rock strip lizard trouble. Oh yes, lizards! You know what to do, when you shoot all them aircraft down? You're safe. One less lizard. This is too easy. Yeah four. I found out there's a load of stuff in the back yard there. Take it i with them. What, like Yeah. wings up or anything like that? Have you long with the disk? We're on wings. He was gonna write to the army. Ah? He's about the . With the so some night in New York, ain't that right man? And he just turned round the other belt him ! It's like we never let the dog in. What about the day's ? Right. It's blown them all. I see. Bravo! Destroy tank again. Some of the blue tanks across the bo border. You have a dig at that, go on. Who made the ? It's number two. And that. Er right, one. Count ten. Yes, I will do it. This mission. Don't take off. I don't know. I have I have got the key to the taking off, you know. Brownstein Oh! Oh I remember that. Where's the map? Oh maybe. You don't have . That's er Taibon our first base the army friendly base. You know what that is? Round the aerial under there. Look at them. look. Brownstein they've been It's er there long. code named Charlie Large,. No you're can't. No you can't Paul ! You can take off there! What? You can take off No. there? Are you going half Er way. See armament. At least here, here the . Och! This is your game ! On they go. And load them on too. Oh no! Have to owe our er There's one of each. It was there yesterday. You shouldn't need a new . What? You'll soon, I'll have, opening a new restaurant. Right. Display red. Aha. Alright Colin? Yes indeed. I'm alright. You? Yeah, er Hang on! Hey up! I'm alright. Ha! Game ends welcome commander to Middle East. We're going through the middle Mhm. the Middle Alright? East. Morning! Why? Am I gonna crash or something? , it should be my time. I dunno. Yeah she will. You're coming in and everything. Si side direction. Don't, don't shoot. She knows I won't. Don't shoot! And I'm trying to get a defence on the bogies. I'll let the bogies come in. No way! I'll let the bogies come in. Where's they heading anyway? That forest. Correct stealth mode. On there. Stealth mode's on Lemy. Press Change my weapon ever. Go ahead now. This one. Aye. Fire now. Can I have the No. Hang on. There's bogies coming in. Here are they again looking for us. Ace man weaponry. Great! I'm not, I'm not His, turn! Turn! Turn please? No. Towards the car. There? Towards the car. I know. Towards the car. Hang on. I'm down a bit. Ah! Easily. Towards the car. Ah! Towards the car a bit more. No! You were slowing dow get towards the car and blow it up! No! Towards the car now! Quick! Urgh! Look where they're going! Right! Wah! Hey! Here. What are you doing? Slowing down a bit. When You gotta leg up. Up! Well he'll start coming your way. They're behind you Lemy. Come here! I can't control it. Not the . You're knocking me off. Francis? Yeah? Scanners here. No. But you can take on off the T V there. Just watch this . Lemy they're behind you! No they're not. Look! You're out of the war zone now. Fire. You haven't even changed my weapon right! Well I had two of them. That's them done. That's them done. That's them done. I'm not. I'm using it. That's them done. I'd forgotten all about them. And er som I seen some going out. You can't. You can. You want Why? Go on! Just in case you crash. Let go. One one more time. What did you pull?! Eject!. No, I mean these. Hear the aircraft. Renew your aircraft. Coming down. Can you hear them? You were left mission field. You ejected. Co I've come to see wants to know why were ejecting. Why did you eject? I'm being . Hey! You're a baby. Well you've used anything. I don't know that cupboard. I just want to take and then blow up the tower. No! You don't take off then blow up the tower. You blow up the tower first. No you don't. You blow up the . Right. You've got Alpha, Bogey, Fox Strike, and Lizard and Charlie. I can't read these. Launch a deep strike attack against the enemy and on our three separate and remain always calm. No, I just remembered And parading a minimum of six trucks and four tanks. Yeah. What do I ? Any how you No , it's my go. It's my go. I'm gonna destroy the road. Hardly any . Made su You've had too many goes, look. Destroyed the radar trackings . Two MIGs sighted in centre six F, closing on the place which I'd have to get on the border of five A. If you don't get off, it's my go. It's not fair. It is fair. Ah! But you've had loads of goes and I haven't. He'll come up to me. I'm safe. Bogey trying to prevent me except for two H. Oh this is boring! So this should be boring ! What? Shum some Shh! Don't talk now . Oh say say . Ah! Oh cor! Charlie . I don't have to be. Ah! Er or I'm saying erm my weaponry. I don't want any. Clear! Clear! Hey! Clear! Why? Clear! They're now C S Ws. Seize them. Yeah. Right. Down. Further. And they're C S Ws. It's Tomahawk cruise missile. Well I'll clear it. It, go on. Up. Take it up there again. What? No, up. Yeah. Up. Up. Up. Up. Up. There. Where? Get them back missiles. Right. I see. Oh! I hit the wrong mission. We don't want any mission do we? I hit the wrong mission. Fox Strike. Fox Strike. Who me? Fox Strike? Fox Strike. Wanna destroy the rope bridge? Mhm. No. No, I'll tell you wanna destroy. What? You wanna destroy er Operation Lizard. No. And enemy armoured call. Mm? Right. You want Lizard. A. Do you wanna select your weapons again? Yeah. I ought to go round this side. No way!missiles again!! Okay. That's all set in I think you ought to go I'll get you going real quick. No it's not. Well that one two two two each. That's it. Oh! Mm. I've got too many missiles! Look at this. These shoot up. I would have shot those from the side again. No! No! No! I don't want them! They're a cruise missile. I don't want them. They're good. You know. And they're quite Are you okay? They go up there six hundred and fifty miles per hour Lemy. Don't want them. So it can't come up here while I'm up there. Well who cares! Or there. I'm not up again this time. Erm oh! Erm There's one more . Can't come up. No. No I won't! Just . Nothing like that. Are they in? Yes. No! They're our missiles Lemy. Yes. Are they gonna go for some ground fire? We'll hit the ground. Semi-professional stand off. Or do you wanna lose the ground missiles again or they're actually they don't go very fast they've got warheads on them. It's just like me and you with war heads. Brr urgh! Ooh! Ooh! I'd hate to be wearing it!. Er I don't I was longing I was longing to beat you. No. Ordinary . Er Look at my feet! Margaret. Look at these!! They're erm my cruise missile. Give me a cruise missile will you? Don't be so stingy! God! Put it back. start off weapon. Oh no they're not. Can you get them? Oh that's great! Yeah, I'll need the submarine you got over there. And I was one short from this end. There, or the the big one is thirty miles no twenty five miles. This here one. I've only got one left. Or that. Don't lose this one. Why? No hang on to it. You want the and wo one over there, one out there. You want one there right? That's your Parkwell cruise missile. Guess erm how long it'll go? Seven hundred miles up to three point five or four point five Mach I don't even know what Mach means? Who? Me. I do. That'll be too many erm C S Ws. Five missiles over there. Erm no we can't play with that. I'll show you. You I don't know how many. What's he up to? Why? Why? What are you up to? You ready? What? You are clear to go. You are er you are on a mission . So you don't I wanna see your mission . Ah! No! Not in the desert. Don't touch! I need to reverse. You don't wanna kill anyone, you can kill . I want the camel. I want the camel. Right. Can I take it towards the wrong one? Or the so far Well I'm not telling you. a thing over there. A hill. What? You can shoot it. Turn left when I tell you, right? Aargh! You never bothered! Don't. That's off. That bag's not very important. If it rains now it . Wow! Er Do you wanna ? They've crossed their border! Our border! Stay back! Where's the tanks? Where? You gotta ! Come on! Bring you out. Supposed to go that way. No! I won't I put you in the war zone. I get the end of the war zone. Lemar. Well it's just there. I think they'll go. You're on stealth mode. Paul, they're using our la lawn mower to cut our grass! Yeah! Let me see. Climb on the big horse. Can't see. Ha? Can you? Let's get the missiles off. Back to your horse. Mhm. It's no me! What am I doing? It has ! So I can blow it! We'll be we'll be in bed. Give me a channel. Come on ! I'm not going up there! Eh? I'm using all my firing ammo Right. So that one's going to attack me. Has gone. Aha. Nothing left. Ah! And now I'm going down to granny. Do you wanna spin? Couldn't get these earphones working. Bringing the I'm trying. on it. I was trying! I bet you don't have a No. No! Yu You'd want them! Here it goes. So? You take that! Get it at least course not! Isn't it? It i Give was two goes. I ejected you! I tried to eject you, you didn't That's not true ! One more! No! You get off or I'll box you! Get off them! You, you have more than three goes, so you did! You had more two goes at erm, the last time ! Leave me alone! Chicken! Let go! Ah! You ah ah! Ah! Ow! Ah, ah ah! Let go! Well that's . I'll been looking up these things. And you're not allowed to touch me! See I'm allowed to touch you. No. Then it's er . Shh! . Er hit cancel will you? Erm certainly the biggie and the blackie. It's lent me the black one now. Ooh! Maybe this carpet will ruin this. Then do this. Which order does it ah! Everything.. Ah yeah! No for that. I know it takes so long. I'm getting ahead of the Right. Go for that. Who first? This is the , so I am I'm on one only. Oh! The lorry is se se se se just then. Ah ah ah ah ah! That's not fair! Have you thought mine being fair? Let's try it. What did you hit, me? Mm mm. Shit! All the big ones up the top. All? Mm. Right. That one. Down to no! Up! Up! Up! Ah, now these watched this trick before. I know what these are. Don't touch it! It'll go up! It couldn't blow up. It could. Wouldn't! Cut this pin in half. Got a Ah ah ah ah ah! Gotta go careful. One. Off! I just want one of them ones. Eh? Go careful. He's fucked in the corner . I can't fight them off. turn round. After I A R N, one, two, three. A I R. That's wrong? I A N? Up! Up! Up! Up! Up! Up! Up! Up! One. Up! Up! One. Down. Down. Down. Down. One. Up! Okay. Up! Do ten up. Or I keep getting up. Oh! Mm mm. A hit. Up. Up. Down. Down. Hit it. Er there, except the bottom. You gotta take these ones. Yes! It's a draw! Thank God! In the . The nice clear win You'll be on Alright. I'll start it. on the wrong way between the H Q . Yeah. Has that mission gone? Mhm. Sure it's the right mission? Do I Mhm. get too near? Mm, I think that that's a different mission. Yeah, I'm coming. Start . You want a bet they won't? They're coming fast overhead. Behind you. Can they? Can't reach. I saw them! Ah! There's one. It was a funny day now was it? Hey. Hey. Hey! That one. You are traitors. Great. Amm ! And one more behind you. Would you do a structured damage? A, make a structured damage on the building. Ho ha Dunno. She'll think it's a fight. Pull them all up. I don't know for sure, now. .Hit you again. No. No. No. They're wearing on the back. See the fire in the cable. What about Foxtrot ? Nothing. It's trying, they're rak you know that they they erm A A A A A A I, A A I. Watch the T V. Possibly go on this road. Already there. Don't be afraid if you can't. Urgh! It's gone round there. Will I'll get your wee . Now shoot. Who's behind them? Yeah! I've pulverized them. Ha! Ha! It was hard . Don't die when you've taken a turn. What about there? You landed okay, alright? There. Oh God! Oh what! You've taken in that What? weekend. Oh I know first weekend. First weekend is Saturday. I don't like this. That's what Kevin 's are like. Exactly! Rescue another . What do we do? Aye. Francey? Yeah? It happens to be one more. What? I've a . Do you know that? Mhm. Ha! Well Then go for it How you doing Francey? Okay. How you doing? ? No. I said so. If you're wondering she's she's Yeah. there. Give us a look. Did you? Remember this? Over there. You should let your arm Please! I can never do it! I mean, and you're far back. Right. Yes? Wait, waiting for my pyjamas. Oh ! This is stupid! Don't blow any more up! He'll I'm on stealth. Direct your one. Somebody's threatened me. Enemy threat you behind you! Go F two behind you. Get off! There's the enemy. Bombers. Won't go up. Are you on bomber mission? no they're bombers. Quickly! Quickly! Blow them? Mhm. That's trouble. Exactly! Good God! Kill them! Ooh! The bridge! Fire! I can't see to go round there. Ah! Wo oh! There's the bridge! Fire! Ah! You you've blown it. Incoming missile. Right behind you. Did you see that? Oh it's got the head blown off for it. Why am I firing at it? At this end systems all so all out. A, P C M A. They're erm crankonizers It's crankonizers There she is again. Blow out the bridge. You can't bomb the bridge. What for? I'll check their bridge. Let me check it. Fuck! Look at that! They'll have to take out the men again, no? I know that. Aye, look! I must have destroyed a bomber! And I got one out the fridge. Well it's daren't cos mum . Tonight. You're dead you know, sort of thing. Has that tape stopped? No. It has, it's stopped. What? Has that tape stopped? No. I think so. Right, I'm gonna play it . Aye, just don't hit either Not if I shoot them. We'll play this weekend. Wait and see. You know our mission. Oh and again. And another one. Do you know what you're going up against? Whose bombers are these? And I don't know why you're grabbing all them. What are you choosing? I'll choose this. What did you choose? I choose one to destroy the . You wait! Go for bombs then. You're naughty! Just laugh if it was one, you falling down from the sky. Can you control it? See this big . Mhm. Go past it. Oh! Maybe it isn't on. It's not right. Er ni ni ni, there! Oh look! It's knocked out my food. What? you can't fire! See you're not very good! Oh! Oh! Oh! Oh! Oh! Oh! Oh oh oh! Here she is. He'll see them off. I didn't destroy it. Knock off part of them, they're set apart aren't they? No. I can't. For me to dodge them. No, don't fire will you!there. Yeah, I can also see Well I didn't lose a pile of them. It's the only thing I got. Hee oh! Didn't do it. Yeah but Shall we blast that? You have to get Ah ah! You can get a ! He's a kamikaze! Kamikaze driver! You crashed! I crashed! He crashed into me! You crashed into him. Over there! Recount! Recount! Recount! Cha cha cha ! Recount! Recount! I want a recount . Your will laugh and they'll make you change. This time, don't let them knock out your hood. I'll get them before then. And take a small fighter. Then they'll it's harder to hit. Say, I'm gonna have game on this anyway. Okay. on. There's nothing on it. Then you want eight er charge up missions. Why? Commander, rank commander. And while he is Commander! The scums This is you. are gonna die now! Er you don't have your weaponry. Everything is up north. Watch. I will . Well you have your record camel. Wish I had that camel over there. Go get changed. We leave on Friday the third. Go and bring them back to . Doubt if I can. You're away in half time. You owe half anyway. Anything . engagement off. No, they're retreating. Can start coming out. When I'm ready. One more flight path. They're both flying together. No they weren't. Didn't blow any of them. Must have been clear. Prove they did . This one, no. You hit it. Soon find out. It crossed you. Well, let me see. You crossed him and he never even left it . No, they must have,I caught a dog fight or shoot the windscreen ! The right point on the thing here. Oh cos you're gonna die. That's what he said. Cho choose that small one. I'd like the big'un. That one. The F twenty twos are all out. The F twenty two is shit! It's like a It's oh don't wa don't wanna die! All the beasts are up there. I don't think you should have too much. I say I'm gonna . Ah! Right there. Now leave it there. Go and sort them out . Mm. Yeah. Little wee suckers! Knock up the team up. Not in your book! You chose ? That one. Came up. United Kingdom. Oh! Try the counter measures. See if anyone's listening. Well is that gonna stick to your head? I want stealth, what am I doing, I'm on stealth. Come on! Yes! Come on! or Better not! Gonna knock your head for six! Right. I wanna turn round. You're not ! I can if I want! Oh! Ah! Ah! It was in the aircraft! I never wo . What happened to you? Got all my missiles following me. They're following me. You killed me again! Ha!! This time I'm gonna beat him up! Come on! You won't . You blew, you blew your man's engines up! What's this for? That's the part. Some? Thank you. Stop giving me dirty looks! And make peace with me. Give me that. I'll soon get something done. Move it! How many Weetabix did you have this morning? Two. Two. Francey eat three ! Not like that Tony who ate three boxes! I'll tell him. Right. Don't you even tell him. He'll get over it. Once you are Look at that! Their dad told me twenty million boxes! No, well twenty million boxes. He's half . ! They've gone forever. Excuse me! He's supposed to be doing his homework. He's got He attacked me first. Put the brick in the mouth, he's doing his homework. Okay. Where am I gonna do this then? Eh? Who's, who made the beds? What have I gotta do then? Who made the beds? Why? You did, oh! The dog did it ! That's right. Well I'll maybe give the dog . I'll do it now. Who's that being a smart arse? Lemar! Sit! But he's attacking me! Shut up! I'll attack you! I think I'll sit over here! They're moving further away than ever. Do you want me to come over? in the end, I'll sort it out. Paul psycho! You're doing the rest of the Oh! I'll play a game. Get out your book and come in here. You get to ask for shells and in my wee toilet and I don't Take out them all! and You alright love? The cupboard's Yeah. destroyed. What? Get in here! Pick Why? it up! Come in here! The cupboard's like isn't it? Aha. So? Not me. Get the fucking mister! Look fella, you're gonna have to go and learn that how that's done by here. It's in the breach you know, so th Beg your pardon! My family always said your family No! Pardon me! It's lopsided! Yeah ! Looks lovely . Ah! I'm going. And especially when this is lopsided. It's all . And movement. And your eyes, ni ni! Don't pull my work down! Oh! I didn't do nothing . Oh! Oh! Wah! Wah! Hit that door? And I'll tell you later one wrong and you're hit on the head! Get your homework done? I didn't have any. Erm, no. Give me a couple. Ha? Okay. Right. Er Give me your sock . No don't! The actual plan . You're not gonna take it off! I, I know who Can I have one? Well er That'll be lovely. Er er, er er Ha! I like those jeans. Do you? I wanna go super. Gonna go and see . Weeow! Weeow! Weeow! Ooh, da da da! Ah? July twenty eighth? Yes. Where? He might appear on this. Oh! He might appear and extending this. It's like Roseanne eh? Yes. Do you want beans Paul? They walk past the Any good is it? No, you'll be able to see. I'll soon pick it up. Nothing really at all? These. What's with the ? Pass it over. Mm. It has. Mhm. What? What? Well there's nobody who's prepared to say anything. There's matches on! No, number seven. What is it? What is what? Them. They're not gonna let him go to that. Oh! Who said so? Is Kelly going out there? Mhm. No. Still going when I leave there. Maybe it costs more. You know we already ha it's the second, would you like It's the second part. Well it's been quick. It's only the second one . ? No I haven't. Oh! Only once. What? What do you quit Thursday Nora? Yeah. Well Francis, did you find out? No. What? I'm afraid not. So you don't get all the things then? I said it's not Rufus. You are, when do you finish? Thursday. But, you don't know what time? all or not? That's lovely! No! When? Wednesday. Don't you remember? Aye. That was Raymond. Well then, what about them? I haven't seen, what I saw that? Yeah. Haven't you? I can't remember them now. Where's all the trifle? Then what about, do you want a bit now? Well if you tell him he'd worry more. Let him find out for himself. No, I tell you see. And then he says well I'm not on Thursday and that was that. No more hassles. Mm. Course he's got Robert. He got the paper that says says nothing about computers at twenty percent off whole stock Good grief! Er, what's that? It's your pasta. I know. Mm? Do you want some more homework when you've had this? Depends what's on. Why? Ah? Why? Yeah, I . Ah? Alright. What is she drinking? Orange juice. No, I don't think she's drinking wine. And mineral water, meant a glass of lemonade. You don't have to hide it. Aha. What? What's all those? All that up. God bless any one person I'll come . I know my ga come-uppance cos it'll take me . Ah,mo move that. This. Yeah. Oh I I had two on there. I forced them out of the screen. You're diagonal. Shoot, over there and then whole-batch. Once it comes on the screen generally good. Who they can go further than one back. Once I've got this wee grog player thing. And hours later it disappeared. It sure did. And it never reappeared. Oh. Oh! I've just seen a big crane. Big thing for lifting cars in a dock yard. You know what I mean? Shh! Move that off without getting killed. To check that they've gone home. And check No. and make a like, just walk right through. Alright then. Let, there's your way. I'm watching her thirty at the big big fire wall one. Don't use the fire, and fighting fire. There's a wall wall, although we . It's about the cop, it's about Go up and do your homework Francis and we'll see. I'm going to bed. Aye. May as well. I suppose I'll have to give her a ring. I know. He's only waiting to do that because . Phone our neighbour. What love? Let them know we're alright Paul. Paul! On here you've got . Who's on that one? Hold the cards. What? Whoop! Hold the cards. Have you gone? Are you going? What mum? Oh! Where is he? Ah? Aren't you gonna watch? Mhm. All except yours. I'll watch it. Get up there! No, it's just the way I feel. No,we we had a free kick there. Behind. What, and now going for a head, hit the bar. I would have understand if he'd dived and got out their way and the wind just blew it the other end. Aha? the cover. Well, my friend brought out a frisbee right? He, I thought it and Martin goes, look! Look! It's bound to hit the wall. Paul, the frisbee is bound to hit the wall. And Yeah. it goes diagonal up one end. And then he he get his dad was passing, he's put out put out his arm to go like that there and when he caught stuck up like from there. He went urgh! Aha! I was just what does mean? Ah? I mean, I haven't a bloody clue! It's it's not it's not , you move yourself up. It's not, be careful! Someone's going to give me . That's what it is. Mm. Hey this one's starting at seven. In te ten minutes. Yes. What? Maybe we should go down there later on. I dunno. Yo! Dude! Gone, it is . Tt. Oh Peter . Oh look! He's only got one eye! What? Where? Well I don't know . Where? Why? Ah? In your bank book. Nothing. Mum ! What? Here! Francis, what do you want? Who wants Ah! who wants me? What do you want me for? Did you give him the milk? Can I go to ? We just went to it. Remember? Your P E kit went for a walk on his . No, I'm not talking about the lost things . Where are they then? What? I would, you know. You would not! I would so! That's . Look at this. No, don't want to till you move this! Alright. I will find this with you. Oh God! You didn't turn them on until the second part. I know. Well I know. That's not fair is it? You can go up. I'm not sure if they are there. I They're brown nearly. Who? Said brown nearly. No, they're probably still brown ! I'll go and get them out. No! No. Be even better. See you! Are you sure! Are you sure! I'll to have your ! Hey? I know. I'm not accusing you. Yes you are. I'm not! You are! Francis. You are! Paul!your son out here! Look at my arm! Mum! What? It's his fault. Lemar! What? It is on!is it on? Look. Anything good on the Movie Channel? Yeah? No. No? We'll get a result there. No we didn't. Listen you know what I me mean goes in extra time and after that, penalties. Nil, nil this is the second half. Yes. But I know Yes. Don't score a goal this time. Yeah, but if you score a goal it will still go into extra time. Yes. They both score a goal now. Both. Who's wo Aye or who's got the best of the play? Best of the play? I'd say Liverpool. Should have seen Barnes! Look! Switch! Switch! Switch! What? Whee! What did Zip! Zip! What . Look! Look! Look! We'll play by your and go in his way. Know what he done? He just straight through them. Give him the card and then any how. What? Who's recording? Well who? Yous already, the button pressed haven't you? Well When? Are you still recording? What? I did it just now. Sure that tape wasn't finished? It wasn't finished just now. Was it Lemar? Yeah. It was nay. Well . Don't pick up the . Ha? Yes. What are you doing? The mike's . One, pa! One, pa! One, pa!. Daddy you bought these. Did I? Aye. Oh up against them. Yeah. Go and get the papers over, can't see the result. Got one in your bedroom. Mm. Well, how they doing? Ah! Ah? Nearly finished. Ah! Here. What's the score? Nil, nil. Nil, nil. And there is not results today. Is there? Mhm. Aye guess who's winning the free kick. Who? Well Liverpool Who? have only got aye Tottenham is winning the free kick. Er, ten free kicks. Aha. And Liverpool have only got four free kicks. Well I'm . I'll go for . Lemar says Liverpool has had good play? Yeah. They've been running up and down the place doing all the good play. played well too and and they may have th vicious or anything. He was pushed right down! Okay. He was pushed down onto here. He, one that got hurt. One of the Portsmouth players Paul. He's What do you think of the No play now? Paul's sitting there. I can't hear him te give me a . It's the, it's the phone. There's a phone call for you young man. How do you get home? What? Walk home. Right. My mummy. What? What? Mummy wants to go with you. Oh no! No, no, you don't have to walk us home. What? Here's daddy. Whe when I get there Sit down Lemar. I'm going But to walk you all the way. they throw down their and stuff. I said sit down! Come on then. Everybody was shouting for a penalty. And never give them. fifty two. What? Has the water come up? Looks like there's no water! Look. Who lifted it up? I saw them all on a rail. Erm Jeffrey's granddad. Oh well! Normally the keeper It's better than Francey. actually they move a lot. Eh? They work out who got the most shots in How many shots? at the net. Mm? Back to the shots. What did you say about ? I reckon Robert de Ni Robert de Niro just then. Who? Oh! They should be red on it. Mm. They should be er both of them could have put that all in black. What? This should be red on it. It's not it's sitting down to Robert de Niro. He is trying to find here. Ee! Ah! Fuck the ! Both you of you Yeah. What? P F these, these are for , got hit and That's a smaller version of that. If I have the ammunition for this war and take out you now. The civilization. The both of you. The civilization, okay! Oh! Do you still want erm Rushmere mere? So you did. Who's that ? No? I, wouldn't I know? Tell Francey to walk home They're mine. . Mm? Let him walk home can't you mum? No. Take that one there. But why? What time you going? What time is it? Half past nine. Then I'll go . Mhm. She's normally in bed now. Is she? Not at all. I'll just leave it.. Yeah. Well no, it's gonna be a bit tricky, come the back way here. Cos there's effort then.. Call one now. No , I'll do it. What? You not gotta . He , I don't reckon. If everyone . Aye, he said there was a I checked and went and asked. Leave it alone. Well I'll phone. They've fucking given half the game up! Zip! Zip! Zip! Zip! Zip! Zip! Zip! Zip! Zip! Zip! Zip! Zip! Who's Portsmouth playing? I dunno. Is this aspirin you give me? I don't know . Aye. Aye. Yes we did. Portsmouth. Highbury. It is the even ground. It said at the start Is this Highbury? it's all at Highbury. Is this Highbury? Look at that ground, look! It's all at Highbury. Don't do that, no don't let It's And him play. at the . And the last match was at Highbury. And guess what something? Guess who score, he near the end, score from John Barnes' free kick? Whelan. No, he did not! And he's playing this match. Oh! You can almost tell just from the first time they're doing their marking . That lad Mm. over there. Why does another team go out? I never saw them there. Neither did I. Well where did you get that? Dad told me. Goal! They're all missing a good shot. What? No they didn't. it was It was Sunday! Was it? Lemar sa says Started at eight o'clock. There were many other men. Over the don't own that, over a way were Couldn't see them three hundred people I'd say! I was gonna, I hope nothing personal ! Perhaps they thought they were. No way it's complicating shouting at them. Whatever works. Let me hear now. Yeah. Och! He should have been on the end of that. . He's trying for a shot there again. Whoever it is who had the marker out. Aye. I've no, I I hardly think that they're commentating about twenty miles away. Watching T V. And giving names and all. This is sound I, I hear more. I hate the sound of it! Oh! People I never mind his voice. Well He I know. What? Guess what, all in red, number three. He's . He's number three. Well I Yan Molby's number eight. Number eleven! No he's not. Now keep things down. Ooh! That's not Ben. No, I'm gonna kiss you in any way. Barnes has got it! Oh he's gonna score! Go on get it out! Get it ! I'm looking more and more, you may wanna Da na na ! Er er er! Er er! I wanna go I want dad to get one of the . Ha! You're doing the laces on your own. Okay. In the car. It resulted in a Where's his cheese? Maybe he didn't like it. See eleven. Eleven. Did anybody try the Eleven thousand. ? Francey really Yeah. likes it. It's gorgeous! What's it like? Mm. Mm. It's nice. Is it like Dairylea? Yeah. Especially the . It's very like Dairylea. I try to leave it one day,a believe me, it's no more than you'd die, like. It is. Well I'll eat it. It tastes Take a tiny bit. it tastes like butter. No it doesn't. Butter and cheese. But, never you get that again. What? Never get that again. Why? Bu just don't get it! You know I don't like butter. Tastes like butter and cheese mixed together. I didn't get it for you! Shit! Butter ! Got it for me. Well you don't have to try it Paul! Have you just finished! Francis is eating it so that's alright. What's cheese and like? Are you gonna eat the lot before you go to bed? What? Oh! Mm. Something like shot. Oh that Well if , well if you you were supposed have overtime set up, right? Maybe you could have separate accounts for the whole these and these Yeah, separate accounts. Yeah, we got hundreds of these, and these . Who are you getting two separate accounts? Go out and get two. Why just me? Who wants who wants some of Lemar's spread? Where's the Daily Mirror? There's no . Erm, I wonder, that's at the table. Anything No. else I do for you? Come on! Cor! It's in. What? It's in We haven't September nineteen seventy seven. with Florence. Look! There again. Aha. Well you're one way past . I just wanna cry! What? All my friends just cry. What? All my friends I know. just cry. You sure? No, I won't cry before. Yeah! I would just Only if my fucking mouth hurt or something! No. No. Well where did that one go? What do you want? You never play football! It's way out of o Ooh! Watch this one. Looks really good. He'll be a good player. It went past . They've Yeah. opened the . Oh! That big goal path cleared all the ball. He wasn't he going out for it. Or or Ooh! anything else. The only thing is they want to be and that. Mm. Don't talk while we're watching . That there is er England Me ee ee ee! colours. Whereabouts? That there. That's clever isn't it?! Mm mm mm. I never even heard the question . Why are we doing ? No! Ah? What? They'll lose th the, the, the, the match. They probably will. Mum! And they're gonna put a header! One darker than the other one. Mm?. Let's walk all over them! Look! Floored them! Look all that! There are Portsmouth fans and la Liverpool fans all down in Highbury. There's more! There's more! And What? they're gonna turn Lemar it yo it's your turn to take off. It's not. I never . Oh he's a good player, that! You what? Oh just play it for him look. What? Yeah, when You know erm and when he wins this they're sure gonna sign him. Arsenal ball. Go on! your match the Liverpool supporters The one that they're trying to watch now? Yeah. That match? Yeah. Oh right. Liverpool supporters ru The one where somebody hits you in the , now that match? No . Go to the north. just to watch this game. Who took my card out? You don't need the card in this. But you need the decoder in. Aye. Oh! Do you need it. Should have made it with that. Mm. What? Give him the card . Will you take all of the ones? No. All the way. Oh! What will it be? Nobody calling it Och! .Go on man! Different coloured blue See if they got have the yeah, the linesman he's an arsehole, the linesman! I know. Some of them . An Argentine. I think he's wrong. Hand ball! Well that walked all over him! Och! What'she doing ? Zup! Zup! Zup! Zup! Well I guess he is Zup! Zup! Zup! Zup! Mm. That's the first time he ever waved his arms! I honestly thought the ref should them in hand really. Come on somebody! Send him off! He got sent off on Sunday didn't he? Get off big nose ! It's somebody else ! He pulled him down from behind ! Just to make it, aha. Do you need the earphones yet? Find out what your mum wants give your mum a call today. With all this . See if she wants to er, you know, coming down on Sunday. Aha. Erm she wouldn't go. She, I think she said she wants to go like, you know,for erm wherever she wants to go and it would do her chores themself. And there'll be less fuss. She can't wait to see . She's got to go and see Heather Mm. and Rosie and erm, what was I saying?and Kelly. And flipping, twenty five pounds it cost them to get into the . Twenty five pound for adults and fifteen pounds for children. And that was for them going just for the day. Well that's, they reckon for doing your . Mm. Well I love planes don't I? Aye, even if I share that didn't get you anything I didn't know it was on the , it was on the T V today, said it was very good. Aye. We won't stay there. But we can get a day thing. They said it Yeah get really worked for families if you're going for a day or maybe two days. They say they're very large. Compared with the, the, the day one They were over at Arsenal today ,. is the space like he, he says they've been woken by . It's a lot better than what he thought it would have been. Put it that way. He's through! Penalty! That's Yan Molby. Oh! We'll see. The only thing he doesn't like about it is the part where you go to Eurodisney. Is that right Paul? It's the wrong time. He paid for a film. It's prone to er there. It's never really fun place. He said it doesn't matter who does it on down the second time. Ah! He saves it. Isn't it ? No , it's not. I've gotta clean them all up the same. Paul that's Mhm? Alright. Just say to your mum . I mean, a lot of the ri rides are all under cover there. You know , you know but you're not listening. Well I'll listen to two o'clock in the morning when yous are all in bed. Doesn't matter. It does! Cos I'll be . By the time you get all this and counting all the years,by the time you'll be able to afford it ! No mum! You're not going to EuroDisney! Sure That'll mean peace and quiet then you're going! The P G A or something. Ah! The P G A or something in Scotland. Shh! Pull out the now. Mhm. Go there a lot. At least with three thousand screaming fans beside you, you still hear it. Mm! Don't do that! What? Here, just now. What did You ooh you say they were? Yeah. Every time he does that there you call out ! No. You're saying I like it. Ah shut up! It's not your fault. Move over there! Which is the youngest one? a nineteen year old. Er I dunno. Twenty something. I want both of my cups. Aha. And she bought that bowl. And she bought me the glass bowl. Aha. And know what she done? She broke one of them glass bowls! Last night. ! I didn't break one of them glass bowls! I lifted it up You broke it! to go and get the Sit down! glass bowl out of the thing to get the big fruit bowl there and one of them broke. Yes. That's because you dropped one of them. I didn't drop it! Yes you did! You see! This is his big one, look! It just broke . No. What did you say? That one was broke. Yeah, and his books erm falling down the way, not up the way. Mhm. That's the . That's why they couldn't get So they said oh dear! Sorry! Oh dear! I wasn't meant to do that. Instead of oh dear! I was nay meant to do that. Oh dear! I wasn't meant to do it.. Go away! Now! And I hit you back! Yeah. He's waiting up this end. He'll have to go on instead, yeah?. They're coming to have a look tt just because . Mm mm. Not much of them telling . Yeah, the best footballer in the world. I know! It was one of the best goals in the world you told me! I know that! No, it's . Mhm. If you asked them to he would do it. They're going We still haven't , can't we do some more? Thanks Paul. I like these. Get your I like them. shit out of the jar! Okay! And it's the first time since you're . Three gotta be done tomorrow night. Just wanna drop them, then go. Off side there! It's obvious! Tt. Ooh lovely! Watch him insult the There it is! referee! No, it was the middle player. Send Aye. him off! And Portsmouth found it. Yeah. The , the ref. The ref's gonna jus , er banned them all until after the match. And his erm, That's another good header! I'm fairly sure he did. Who's doing that list? Nobody. Oh! I've left the water running. Have you all seen that? It's good innit? Give me the other one. What? That in there. Something under there? No. Ah? Nothing there. There's a big bicycle. Did you see the, them, the nightclub? Some . Oh my God! What? See the grass they're playing on Paul? Paul? Mhm. Look at that grass in Highbury! Doesn't look like a perfect pitch? Mm? That grass. Bet it takes a lot cutting. the grass. Looks perfect doesn't it? The work probably is. Whatever is I Mm. suppose. Well that's it. Something like Aston Villa's pitch. How many you got to Once. Only once. Aston Villa. One. That's probably got sand on it. I know what's happening to our Except that place looks like a looks like a . This one's Is that all it is. Is that all is it . Four of the footballers Well belong to national game. It's erm, the heart of the cos er, everybody went there to the pitch went down like that at your ankles cos the water and . What? Every winter, right? Right. Lo er not very good for Joanne, she's heavy. You know that the . Thi , that there Paul the ground you muck up the grass. The seats are way down. So they put sand over. Look! You can see it's sunk. I know,a mixed in with muck. They don't have the old do they? It'll be worse and worse. It's all rubbish. I'm just wondering . Mm. What's that? Er, I'm sorry! I didn't know. That. It's a lot of work playing for a concert. A load of work. and got the cup last year. What? From what they said didn't win the cup last year. Can I have one of them? Mhm. She's got more . I wonder if er, they'll be going back to New York. But what for? Er, probably i No. Er, they aren't. I don't know. I hope they're coconut. Do you want, do you want one of these, er Paul? It's just the water. Really, in there is water. I'm feeling shattered. Mhm. Oh well played! Ooh take it! Tt! They could have come in and that could have cost you the ball. I could play for them. Mm. And he was standing there and he scored. Ooh! He's there ! I dunno. Sometimes . Ah? Are you coming? Aye. Zup! Zup! Zup! Zup! Zup! He should do it. It's done. Then he should do it and he goes Ooh er But then . Is this the first half? Aha. Oh that's a bit better. At least they've been shouting out. They . Well thanks. Oh. Gonna answer me? What's up? Okay. Okay. Do you love me? Oh si say that shit! Okay. Since you're both . Go on! Get them out the hall. You and Lemar just remember . After all, he got No, no, no! After this game. Mm? No, I'm not playing with you. Oh no. Oh well, well done! That's not too fair! Said you and me . Ah? Post! Ooh! Well why did you go, Should have went in! Did you see that shot! Ah! They're really getting rough with us. That was out. Hey! That should have gone in. Yeah, what about that! They weren't putting, that they weren't playing they didn't have Is your Mum coming up today? It's okay. You've got light out in the back of your car. Who? So you can only put your headlights on, get little lights at the back. Yeah. I think it's the passenger side one what's gone. Oh what, what brake lights? No the actual driving light at the back. Cos I like, I've got a faulty one, the police went and stopped us one. Went and pulled her over for it. Alright. I'll get it done But it does work. for you. Yeah, no you know the was it Thursday Last when I went up? Well last week whenever it was. Last Sunday when I followed you Yeah. he said that erm, I saw that Sometimes it works, and sometimes it doesn't Yeah. It's really weird. I got like No, we, we just for a light. You know your hand it was last night No. Right well . They were up here last night. Yeah I went with them . Oh, wasn't it his erm where his aunty got married? Someone's dad. This bloke cos they were up here last night being really rowdy. Mm mm! Cos he co I can box. Yeah. Cos yo , the one in the tie was a right wanker! Oh yes. Yeah he was holding loads of glasses. It was his Dad who got married. Ah? It was his Dad who got married. He was an obnoxious git! It was Oh! Come over here. Can we really ? I think that's right. What? I put , I put the cake there anyway. No but he was erm Jo's He kept whistling at all the girls, going shut up! You've already been told once. He's gonna come over in a minute and get him! He goes Oh! you know, telling him , he was stubbing all the cigarettes out, drinking all the drinks on the table. He was a right yobbo! Sorry. Beg your pardon. You could have said that a bit louder. I think I might. Do you mind jumping in the back? No it's alright. I was imagining you sitting in the back anyway. In the back . I had a wicked boogie last night! Where d'ya go? Ha. I went to this some of the football er A G M of Phil's It was, they had a disco up this at the Down Town Diner in Ashford. Oh I know. We went with this that banger. No it's dropped. It looks a bit black out there I think. Looks like it's going to rain. It is. Looks black out there. Great! Well I mean And make a bit less smaller to screw. A barbecue in the rain. Yeah. You can probably, I say, you can hold the umbrella over me and I'll cook. Yeah well we'll be serving with the door open with it. Yeah. My feet ache. Well I can't cook cos I've got Well my feet ache as well. I, my legs as well. Twenty past twelve we finished last night. That's what I heard. Yeah. I got back right, and my friend's children I'm glad I never wear Did you come up here last night like? You still didn't clear that tablecloth with all, I mean you didn't like did you? No. We didn't even finish the last table. We didn't come up here till about ten. There was loads of washing up in here still to do last night you just had to leave it. And we just had to leave it. We could Who was up here? Was anyone up here? Did they tell you about that nanny I was ? Yeah, came up at ten o'clock. He only came up here cos they were closing. Well he might be. No just that Well Danny sent them back cos they dirty. Were they? Yes. They were disgusting! I washed them up. Was there anyone up here last night? They were , they were hu , they're alright now. Oh they're alright. I had a damn good clear up here. With Damian? Yes. Ha! I'll love it if he's here today. Today. Ah little Damian! Matthew. Matthew. Tarquin. Why d'ya say Damian? Cos he's evil. He looks like, you know, have you seen it Yeah. Have you seen it erm Hello! What is wrong with you two? You're so dumb! I hate him. Your Mum loves him. Come and give Aunty Barbara a big cuddle! He gets on your nerves though. Oh that little one No! that was there today? He was cute! What? Yeah. Doo doo, doo doo . . Ah you're joking! Want two or three? Well I did. What happened? She's meant go to the bun shop. But ah ah! Ah man's gonna starve Are you going down there? Go upstairs and get some Me. I'll walk down there with you. I mean buns. I dunno where the bun shop is. The bun shop. I know where it is. Where? Do you wanna take my Just down there. car Craig. Yeah I'll take your car. Well you know what I'm so hungry! Ah yeah, we'll leave it and we all just, we miss it out. . And no one 's going there? It's alright I'm not hungry. No, Claire was going but she had, didn't have time on the way back Mm. Cor I really ache! Get a quarter pounder large fries Ah! I don't like any burgers in there but I love it! Yeah, get MacDonalds. I was being bossy last night just couldn't hack it. What d'ya think? What? Yeah well Matthew's alright. He's not like Thomas ain't in a good mood is he? Tom ain't in a good mood . Why? Dunno . He was alright with me. He goes Right, you finished where's your those nearly? Yeah, they've bought us them out and they were dirty a minute ago so I'm putting them back. I went to him alright Tom? He goes, shut up! Do you want us to put them back in now the customers have started rolling in? Pardon? Do you want us to put them back in? Are there customers yet? Ah so you've nearly finished those lot? You look tired. I feel it. I had about Friday night I finished work here at twelve and then up again at and I got about two hours sleep then and I started to . I worked till to, last night in the end. Did you? Cos I said to , I said I know Sally can't work, I said but she wasn't supposed to be working anyway. But I thought you were asked to. Yeah, no, I was supposed That's right. to do every other Yeah with me. so, then I told him that I'm not doing it any more . Well I don't like to do that one. Ain't you doing no more? I can't do it next week, I can't do it next week. What you doing next week? Erm Emma's boyfriend is having a party at Village Hall. Mm. I've got a party at Morecambe Village Hall. Mm Are you going? Twentieth party. Twenty first birthday. Should be a good laugh actually, all the boys When are they having a party? Claire? Ah? When are they having a party? Shoes in a plastic bag. Who? Emma and Simon. Next week. Next week? Can I come? Am I too late to Craig do you wanna do something? Yeah alright. dry those. alright I'll dry them. Cos I've gotta get er Craig, you can come if you drive home. Pardon? You can come if you drive home. No. I'm gonna get out of me head I see him putting them over here. Oi! Mm Now. Did you say milky? Looks like pure hot milk. Did someone write one I don't feel like you're under pressure to do things do you? It's nice that top. You're joking ? Nah. I think it's alright. Cor! Well no one else thinks it is. . Who? Yeah, oh I don't like her . She's got a moustache. Well Vicky has, but she can't help it. No Vicky's got a beard. No I've got a beard. ! Oh. Teaspoon. If you dry up and put them there now cos it's nearly . I got nice baggy arse here. Are they riding jodhpurs aren't they? Yeah, well, such a shame. Can I have the erm grey thing here? You gotta wear that now? Oh don't take no notice, notice love. No, no, it's quite short. It's horrible! Jo, is yours starting at half past? Yeah you gotta wear your sunglasses. Wow! I'm gonna copy you. Well don't she Of course. Nice one! Stay with me, don't move We'll ask her later. Ask the same person and I'll catch it on tape. Go on. Matthew! Can someone help me? When Billy's clear . Ah? Shh! You alright? Cheers man. Cheers. I ain't doing no more. Forget it. Don't do any more then! Alright then . For God's sake, no point wasting it. Alright. See ya later. Get back in there! What? Get back in the kitchen! right, Craig's just about to beat up Jane man, and he's hitting her because she's meant to have taped over something and I'm taping over even more of it now! That boy is fucking shit! Shut up ! Right, they're having a row, now Vicki storms in and they're all rowing. Vicki's trying to protect Jane cos Jane's such a little bitch of a shit hole she can't defend herself. She got curly hair right, and rubbery lips but she's alright. She's got a jean jacket on, a flowery shirt, a pair of jeans and pair of them boots, black boots, they look alright. And she's got a crappy Just Seventeen choker around her neck, it is so shit! Can you please say this on the mike. Bollocks! That was Jane. What was fucking shit! Where's Rob? Where's Rob? We just got a little boy here called Wayne and he don't know what he's fucking talking about. Bollocks! Nah, cos right we're just gonna say as much as can on this tape. Have you got something say? What? Got something to say? No, why? What? Oh she's just a bit shy. It's okay. Just swear. Bollocks! Bollocks ! How much do you get an hour? Two fifty. Two fifty? I thought you got three quid. Claire gets more than you then. Oh please let me sit down. Claire? Mm. How much do you get an hour? Three quid. How much do you get? Ah no! He's been working his time man. Ah! That's out of order. Ah nah! Ah ha ah ! Three pound is right. That's the , yeah but that's the rate I said to Nicola, I wasn't working less than that. Ooh you're getting . How much is he earning? What? How much? Two fifty. He's er, he's been working all that time and he's been getting two fifty. Ain't even bothered to ask to go up. Oh shit! Well he ought to talk to Nicola about that. Pardon? That's out of order that is, the girls go mental over that. I wanna look at the animals. Pardon? What are they? Groovers! Martina's having the same thing done. Martina's having the B and B. He said watch it when you go to leave I thought that was your drink Paul. No I never drink the stuff Gill. Yes you do! Never drink it love. By the bucketful! Never drink the stuff. There's a load of crap! Yeah. Hurry up. Yes. I ain't going back to school. Not going back What's that? till tomorrow. What? Have you been taping everything on it? Can I listen to it? I ain't got no headphones. How long you been taping it for? This is my second tape. I've done a tape already. What of. People talking. I've gotta do it, it's my homework for school. Hideous stuff! Hideous stuff! You know them, like, little sledgehammers, like little hammers about that big about ten kids jumped him, yeah? Yeah! Sixteen year old, yeah? He was on his bike six kids jumped him and said give us your bike they, they took his bike off him gave him a hammering right on the nose, broke his nose. Three years ago that happened and his nose it's still like that. Mashed up. John, he went up to John's house, John come and picked up and they back to John's and John come back to the Phoenix and he had, you know the umbrella things? Yeah. His has got like, it's like a a stake, like a Yeah. a really pointed thing, he brought that down with him. But they'd gone. They'd buggered off. Bastards! Mates of theirs if there's a fight they come back with blades and that and like baseball bats, hammers, they get ready for a fight, but they're all gone. What's up? Keep practising Craig. Did you sort it out? What did they say? Yep. What did they say? Er er pay me some more money. How much er pay rise? How long's Michael gone away for? Don't know. How much you getting a pay rise for? It's about ten , fifty P. I, no, the reason I got that is cos I said to Nicola I'm not working less than three pound, cos I'm gonna over four pounds there. I, I I only get three pound in the office. Yeah I'm only I'm not working for two pound fifty. And how long have you been working here? Well you're best to go hourly than shifts, than erm Six months, and you'll be,three fifty, and she's only just started getting three quid. It's only cos I said Yeah. otherwise I would have been on two fifty. If you do didn't you say anything before? It's not exactly hard work here though is it? I mean I could work at the for three pound an hour. It is if I work Saturday night. But you're not doing Saturdays? Are you? Was Claire doing down here last Saturday night? It was a good atmosphere in the restaurant last night. Thank you. Where's your little erm have you got a blind thing you know? What,up there ? No, a little erm Oh! Stop it! You know what I mean a a chain thing. Right, any more? Any more? That's it. Yeah Dad, can I have a Coke please? Don't call him Dad behind, behind the bar. Alright. John. Here John! Got a couple of shiners ain't he? Bet he's Yeah. been in a fight. Cor! He ain't even seen a fight though has he? Who? That bloke, he's got two massive . John, you didn't do that to that gentleman behind the bar did you, smashed his eyes? Who? With the black eyes ? Has somebody been playing with these taps? No. Oh don't say that! Are you going back to nan's this afternoon? No, I doubt it. Are you gonna go home? I bet your Mum might be pleased to see you. Yes. Who was that this morning? Was that your Dad? Got a new car? It's nice innit? What is it, one ninety or three hundred? Dunno. He's not interested in cars are you Martin? Nah. Now you would know He just , he just drives them,he don't care what they are, he just drives them . You gotta get that roof off that erm jeep though. Cor! Yeah! It's gotta be done. All the girls'll be chasing you down the road. Ee ee ee ee! Is it soft top? It like, it comes off. So he's actually taken it off? Yeah. It takes about an hour to take it off. Well It's not the sort of thing you can take with you. If it's pouring like with rain and go out No it doesn't fold up. You just take it off. Well, you wouldn't need to have it . Yeah. I want one like what Lisa's got. I've never seen that one before. The only thing with the folded ones What? I know they roll over though. The only thing I've never seen it before that one. John, the only thing with the folded ones It takes ages. About six months. is people break into them and they er, only need a knife don't they? Yes Craig they Break it open. do don't they? Yeah. How do you know that Craig ? Cos I do. Right? With a soft top, yeah the easiest thing to do is just get a knife, stick it in and slit it and you've got a little hole to get in. That's the only thing with soft tops. Oh yeah, they're easier to break into. Yeah. I want a Golf convertible. That's my dream. Cor! Yeah! G C I. Sod all the B M W's and that. May , when I'm older have one of them. I wanna get a little Fiesta. A white one Ford Fiesta. with purple stripes on the side. Oh no. I had one Fiesta. It's just , that's the Ghia. What? I'm really pissed off. They're, I reckon they're taking piss, forty minutes late last night! Out of work, didn't get out of work until twenty to seven on a Saturday night. Hello! Woo ooh! Alright? Can I have two halves of shandy please. That's, it's horrible to see that in the family. He only got a from a customer . Oh, oh right. And he said and he brought it up about three years later. You owe me,he said. What? What are you talking about ? You wouldn't have known whe who they are. Yeah . You get this sort of thing, especially if, you go I wasn't the best man , I was in the right place at the right time. Yeah I know. Well, well tha that doesn't matter. Yeah . Well he didn't know where to go or what happened. Oh yeah . Are you gonna take this ball up regular then Craig? Yeah. Eh? Yeah. That's what I said I, if I'm down like Sunday he says that I can play. Yeah. Yeah. That's the stuff. Yeah. But you're not around every Wednesday night to represent the team? No. It, in the holidays I am, but Yeah. last year in the holidays I was around all the time but Well that's right. Yeah. Yeah. That's right. When we used to go, we used to go to Nicks together? Yeah. Ha. Do you want a pint? Yeah. ! Yeah. No Lisa actually went. Yeah but he'll get one. Yeah . Get out of here! Nah. I've crushed it with one of them balls. That's why it bounced awkwardly. Are you gonna take your roof down Martin? It's such a nice day. Yep. Yeah . He'll take the whole thing apart! Get your tin opener out. hee hee Only cost fifty P. Aren't you gonna stay in at home and working all day? Thing is I'm not working. I don't use reverse. Just Apart from me.. Yeah. Phone! No it's not. No one 's listening . Weren't really busy was it today? Oh is that Don? Yeah I know. Go and crawl up his arse. Bloody school tomorrow!! Going back tonight or tomorrow morning? Tomorrow morning. What early? I'm gonna have to get up at four. Get home by seven. Have you hurt your eyes? Yeah. Rubbing it, where you Yeah. Got eyelash in my eye. I get a funny twitch in it. The nerve goes, phew It's horrible when it A bit dodgy ! Yeah. You, lee ee ee ee ee ee. Was the club busy last night? Er, yeah it was ja , it was really packed, it was a nightmare. It was a good night actually. Where do you park? Outside. Outside? I thought you should be in all the roads'll be blocked off. We found a space with nothing in just outside. Where did all the lads go last night? Dunno. Didn't ask them. John was in a funny mood. Don't they usually come up here on a Saturday night? Sometimes. Depending where they wanna go. No point in coming here all the time, it's boring. Yeah. Like, Friday night all the boys came up and then they picked me up and we didn't come back. If we'd have stayed here there would have been no trouble. The Phoenix used to be such a good pub. there was always the, that big blokes who live down there started all the trouble. I left right, right, I ran off I jumped out the car because I heard them driving round the corner Yeah. and I didn't really wanna be there when they found them, and erm yeah I ran back to the pub and the police were there. You ready then Jill? You finished? Yeah. Did it rain heavy last night? Er, yeah Craig! We know you're in there. And listen to this you fucking bastard! Fuck you arsehole! Fuck you arsehole ! aargh ! Right. Right. Right Craig, can I ask you a personal question about Craig? Er, depends Do you think, do you think he's really nice looking? Like, really, really gorgeous? I suppose he's alright. Yeah. Do you think he's really, really bogus do you? Course man. He's wha , d'ya, what do you reckon Jay? He's got nice eyes. Yeah, he's got nice eyes. And nice eyelashes. Nice arse. But he's still a bastard ! Cunt ! Take the mic out and hold, hold the mic. Cunt ! I'll pick it up and hold it. You bastard ! Right now, listen to a little story we've got to tell you right, okay? When you get home we want you to listen to this good. And then tomorrow you know where to meet me. Yeah. Right. We want you to come round at what time Fay would be best? I don't care. Er er at half past six right? Behind Raymond, near the estate office where the raili , black railings are and you'll see Fay there and you'll know what to do. With her mouth open. And Fay will give you the instructions from there . Okay then? See you later. Pip. Bye Pip. Fay, what you got to say to him? Go ! And then Fay will fuck you! Fuck you too arsehole! That's from me ! Bye! Don't you want to say about shit and things like that? Your Mum can't afford toilet paper, she has to slide down the banisters. And listen! And your Mum can't afford toilet paper for her pussy, so when she slides down the banister and says like blurgh, la blah la blah loo! Your Dad uses a plastic bag for a condom. At least my Dad can afford plastic bags, that's all I'm saying. My Dad uses Durex's . Yeah, but your Dad's Durex's have got holes in the top so that's a sly way of getting babies. new bubble gum flavour. New bubble gum flavour ! I can't, trust Jay . Who wi what his Dad wears bubbles gums on his cock. A bit sticky innit? It gets lost inside. He has to stick his head up and go where the fuck has it gone ? Yeah at my Mum enjoys it. Yeah, your Mum's got dreadlocks under her arms and round her cunt. dread, dread, er dreadlocks on her eyebrows. How can my Mum have dreadlocks on her eyebrows? They must be very small. Cos she don't pluck them. She don't pluck them? Your Mum fucks them! How can you fuck eyebrows? Well you pull them out and stick them up there don't ya? No! Your Mum's been bald all her life. She has to cut hairs off of your dolls and stick it on with Sellotape! But when your Mum's not feeling well your Dad fucks her earhole instead. Yeah. Her earhole ain't big enough for fucking! Yes yes it is. No, I don't think so. If you knows like how my big cock, my Dad's cock's like this. And up her arse give her a shot. Now that's against the law so I don't think so. Probably get his tongue stuck and all! What? Come on then. I'm not doing no more. No it's your cuts , it's your cuts. Oh what is it? Oh hurry up I ain't got all night! Your Mum's got so many hairs on her fanny Tarzan don't know which one to swing on! I've he , I've heard that one before, but like it's just like this one innit? Your Mum's fucking fanny is so wrinkly the crabs have got walking sticks. ? How have I got ? You have. D'ya know what your got? What? You've got a fucking peanut with fucking chocolate around the top but that's shit, but listen got this Funny! Your Mum ain't got no arms but she still wants to wear gloves. Come on! Hurry up ! I ain't telling you no more cos I don't know none. I don't know . Come on them, let's get to slag at all you lot. What's all that shit? Your Mum does out of her fanny. Your Dad throws fireballs out of his cock! Then it burns! Yeah, that's alright. That's alright. He has er er That's why you're in don't he? When he boom, they da , they have ha arms you ain't got no arms to wear that Arsenal top with so Your Mum and Dad that's why they massage it. Yeah man, my Dad gets on a hard'un. Your Dad can't get on a hard'un. Your Dad stays like that. Yeah, my Mum does a really hard smack. Yeah come, tell your Mum to come here and lay back like this and let her touch my cock. Phworgh! Hey! Tell your Mum to come here and I'll lay back and all. Yeah, but my Mum wouldn't nowhere near you. You're a little cunt though int ya? Your Say you got a maggot. Nor would mine. Yeah but she would because I just said it and you said nothing. Go tell your Mum to to , stop changing her lipstick cos she's making my cock look like a rainbow. Yeah, tell your Mum to give me the twelve pence, er, er the two P cos erm it wasn't, it wasn't worth last night. Tell your Mum to give my money back, she ne , has your Mum fall pregnant yet? Nah. Tell your Mum to give her money Er Wayne back then. What? You must have touched her up the wrong way. Yeah, I must have done mustn't I? Up, what? What did you say? I say yeah I must have done mustn't I? Yeah you did. Yeah but Mum, you're being circumcised. You've been circumcised and a maggot! You've been circumcised! That Jade thinks she a right horny bitch don't she? Yeah. Your Mum? Like her Mum did you just say? Yeah. She'll slap me when she hears this. She won't cos she's a old slag. Ah ah! Jade when listen to this you best beat him up bad. I'll knock you out. Tell her your , tell her your name. My name's Jay and you're a slag! Ah! Jade, man. How about Vicki? Do you like Vicki? Yeah. Do you think she's horny. Nah. She's got a nice pair of legs ain't she? Yeah. Beautiful int they? Yeah. How about Fay, Craig's bird? She's nice int she? Yeah. Do you think she's an horny girl? Yeah. Would you fuck her? Yeah. Would you Frenchie her? Nah. Why not? Cos I don't wanna. Cos she's got smelly breath. Ah! Fay, wait till you hear this, you best slap him as well. She's nice though int she? Nah. Yeah we're gonna get all the birds and fuck them! Yeah. That narf nice. Yeah man. Fucking get the cocks out! It'll be a good night tonight weren't it? Yeah, man! But you're not coming there so shut up! No we're going Clacton, proper Clacton. Yeah. Gonna get all the girls, go swimming, fuck them in pool and the lot man! Go under the water. Yeah, there's three beds, three beds there. So you think, what can we do with three beds? You on one. Yeah. Craig on the other. Yeah. Me on the other one . But you're too young to go for girls. We're drinking beer, getting pissed No I'm not. out of our nut. But you don't even know Craig properly so you're not coming man. I do. You fucking don't! Piss off! Bollocks! Your Mum. Your Dad. Like you want a new head. Ah! You've your Dad, your auntie Jackie, your Mum's got Aids and you're a paki! Your Mum's a bun round. Fuck her and they slap her and she still comes back for more. Your Mum's a baboon like you've just called mine but she's got big hairy tits. And your Dad's got hairy ball bags! At least my Dad ain't got a bald head. Your Dad's got a bald head with black eyes mate! Your Dad's Popeye. No he ain't. Yes he is. No he ain't. Bollocks! He is. Right. I don't wanna cuss you I'll end up getting you vexed and you'll go home crying to your Mum. But if you want a cussing match later on. Yeah. I'll give you one. I'll give you a cussing match. Right, now coming back to the girls. Right that Vicki, d'ya think she's nice? Yeah. You'd get off with her wouldn't ya? Yeah. I wouldn't. Mucking about. I wouldn't because she'd slap me, but You like all the slapping business don't ya? Yeah. How about Fay? Do you fancy her? Don't know her. Yeah, man, you know the one with blonde hair, she's really nice? Oh yeah. You'd go with her wouldn't ya? Yeah. She's got a bit of smelly breath though int she? Nah. You just said that she has though. Yeah, yeah. Got hairy breathe int she? Yeah. How can she have hairy breathe ? Oi Rob. You know you wanted to go with er thingie, what's her name? Cora. Yeah. D'ya still wanna go with her cos she told me that she wants to go with ya? Why? Yeah man, you gonna go with her? Probably, yeah. What you gonna do to her? Just slap her salami or Yeah. Slap her salami. D'ya know what slapping salami is? Nah. It means fucking her. Are you gonna fuck her? Yeah. Why? Are you gonna fuck her? Yeah. I don't think so somehow. Nah. It's against the, I wouldn't do it any, I'm too young to fuck ain't I? You're damn right. Craig you know Robert? Yeah. He said you know on first day when I was here Yeah. when it was slippery You were a fucking wanker weren't ya? No. When I was down You was bollocks weren't ya? Nah. First time, but I kept when I kept going I kept slipping. Yes. No, you're a wanker on this int ya? Bollocks! Your Mum. Your Dad. Your aunty Jackie bollocks to this! And your Dad's a paki! You said that Arseholes! one. Don't fucking ! Ah ah! Your Mum's a , and they fuck her and they slap her and she comes back for more. Yeah, your mum keeps changing her lipstick, makes my cock look like a rainbow. His Mum's got fucking kick start on her vibrator . She normally does it with washing machines. Your Mum kick starts her fucking hoover! Your mum fetches that . What? That's old bollocks! You're not involved in this. I am. Come on, keep cussing me. Keep cussing me. Oh bloody cuss him! Mucking around. Right. No it ain't mucking around. I'm serious with him. You know your Mum Well I'm not. you know your Mum, she's got a kick start on her video recorder. You know your Mum, she has to keep riding her bike to make fucking laundry drip dry. my cousin. Nah. Don't even know you I say, I make you, you know I'm mucking about Have you seen Fay? don't ya? Yeah. Yeah. And you know where the sex, sex you need to go to the , yeah? It's only mucking around. Alright. Alright. Alright. Just give me one of them. No I'm having this. Ha ha! Er Yeah you know your Mum? She's got a tattoo on her fanny int she? Nah. She has. She has . Your Mum's got a big fucking tattoo of a snake on her fanny. Nah. She has! She showed me last night when I was fucking her salami! And you see that truck what just went by Yeah. your mum's got her fanny stuck up the exhaust of it. Beat that one mother-fucker! Don't be funny. Your Mum's got a kick-start on an electric wheelchair. Your Mum kick-start her . Your Mum's got a kick-start on your Dad's cock so he goes rub it up babe! aargh! aargh! aargh! aargh! aargh! aargh! Your Dad's cock smells. My Dad's cock smells? Yeah. It smells a lot cleaner that what your Dad's cock does. Your Dad's got cheese under it ! My your Mum's had more pricks than a secondhand dart board. Your Mum kick-starts the hoover. Time over. Nah. You know your Mum? Yeah. She's got a sign on her arse saying no entry. And she's got a sign Your Mum's No. Your Mum Yes it is. yeah, your Mum's got a sign on her fanny saying, if small you'll get lost. I like big ones better though. She's got that on her fanny so I've had your Mum so many Oh shut up! times, I forget the first time I had her. Oi! Is your Mum pregnant yet? No. Well tell her to give me my fucking money back then! Your Mum sucks your Dad cock. Yeah I know she does. So what about that? I suck your Mum's fanny. I eat her farts. Your Mum's teeth are clitorises so I just touch them and she gets Look that's You eat my Mum's farts! Oh God! My Mum likes baked beans, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, tell your Mum, if she ain't pregnant to give me my money back. But it was only ten P so get down mate. You know when you was born I was sucking your Mum's fanny and then your head popped into my mouth. Look, you when you was born? Yeah. You fell out your Mum's arse. How could I be, there ain't no fertility cords holding on to the fanny. And there ain't no and there ain't no Yeah, but you know when we , you know when you was coming out your Mum's fanny Yeah. Right? My head got stuck up there so I lifted her up in the hair and started swinging her around in my head. And the nurses goes Ooh! Put that lady down. She will get vibes . Your Mum. My Mum? What about my Mum? She smells? She smells of what ? I don't think so. Your Dad's got cheese under his cock. Your Mum fucks a broom. Your Mum smells like prawns as well. She fucking smells! Your Dad smells of your Dad's got crabs and they go in his eyeballs in the,. They eat your fucking Dad's brains! Know that? Here, you see this lorry coming along? See that big lorry? That's what I fucked your mum in. Fucked your mum in the back of that lorry. Funny! I can remember that. Yeah, very funny innit? See those skates you've got on? Yeah. I paid for them. See your skates? Yeah. I bought fucking . What hundred and twelve pound? Yeah. Yeah, I thought so. Yeah. Course. He's so scared! Bowler turbo with Simms wheels and N N B bearings, I don't think so! Shall I tell you what? What's that? You know your Mum? You know your Mum? She stands down Whitechapel with her legs open saying,come on over to my place. Yeah, yeah, yeah ! And your Mum stands on top of an ice-cream stan , van saying ten P a lick! Ten P a lick! No he never. Your Mum's like a carrier bag, ten P a lick, twenty P the lot. Your Mum's a snow-blower, so's your Dad. And do you know what you are? Your Mum's a a slapper Your Mum's and they fuck her and . Yeah, funny! Now I know why sad. You know this bowl? That's one of my bollocks, it fell off though. I kept fucking your Mum so much my bollock fell off. And I can tell your Mum But then I got another one sewed it backed on sewed it back on and now I've got two balls full of sperm ready to come up your Mum tonight. And if she don't get pregnant tell her I want my money back. And tell her, I've got her knickers at my house if she wants to come round and get them. And tell your Mum that bondage whip as left marks on me. You know your Mum? She's got kick start on her lawn mower. And then goes wurgh aargh aargh! Wurgh! No, we gotta go. Mum sucks, your Mum sucks a black knob. A black knob? Yeah. Your Mum sucks Chinky knobs. Your Mum's got a fanny with a split the wrong way. You know your Mu Yours sucks her own boobs. My Mum's boobs are too Mum oh ah ah! You saying my Mum sucks her own boobs? Yeah. Yeah, you know your Mum? She gets a vibrator and puts in between her boobs. I suck on your Mum's boobs every night so she can have a baby. Nah. I used to suck in my Mum's boobs when I was a baby but not now, I don't think so. So shut up! Bye! Sucks her cunt! How can my Mum suck my Dad's cunt? My Dad ain't got a Yeah. He sucks cocks and put it in. Yeah. That ain't a cunt though is it? You know your Dad? Yeah. He sticks his dick up another man's arse. So shut up! Your Dad is a fucking lesy. How can my Dad be a lesy? Your Mum's a lesy. And your Dad's gay. So shut up! That's the end. That's the end. Right. Bye. suck King Kong for a packet of Chewits. Your Mum sucks your Dad every night so she can have another baby. Ah! Your Mum's a , and I fuck her and I slap her and I and she still comes back for more. I really think so, your Mum's . Your Mum's got a face . Your Mum sucks your Dad's knob every night, and then fuck her. And no Jay, no. What? you know Your Mum's fanny smells of fish. Well my, right Mum's Your Dad's cunt smells of you. Ah ah! Your Mum's King Kong. Oh no! Then . Your Dad's Jack the Ripper. Ah ah ah ah! Your Dad's a stupid bastard and he sucks your Mum every night Ah ah! Your Mum's a slut. Ah! Your Mum's a slut. Your Mum's a prostitute. Ah, your Mum's a prostitute. Your Mum's a snail. Ah! Your Mum's a snail! Well we're keen to get here aren't we? We're in the right place I suppose? Mm. Aha Well they'll be asking the rest of us to take a cut in salary soon . Well if I can Ha ha ha ha nice one. And don't say it. Well if they're not here in five minutes I'm going . Quite right. I think it actually does end up by saying have a nice day. Oh oh. Have you changed the disk before you get anything. Read the s read the screen. Thank you. I'm very glad you're here. I def I definitely should have done this tomorrow night . Or th or last night. Last night would have been very nice actually. Right disk number four? Three. Which you might have already had actually, but it did say insert three. I had three ready here . Right. And you can it's alright, it'll only ask and say I don't like it, put the proper one in, silly idiot. Probably yeah. Yeah it's got all these little pop-up utilities. I don't know what the parents of some of my students are going to think when I'm showing them how to do G C S E maths on the computer instead of the rather . Er it's, it's not a problem, it just er it shows up in odd little corners of the . Oh one of the things it'll load shortly is er files. Ooh. Pretty sounds through the speaker. I do like that and it is so easy to do and Mm. it's been proved Well worth it. time and time again hasn't it? People don't mind waiting if they know the frustration. how long they're waiting for. Exactly. Er yeah you get loads of nice things, you get paintbrush er calculators, Card file even. er you get, you get quite a good editor, just comes free with Windows. Mm. Quite a good word processor. A word processor? Which is vag it's basically a subset of Word. Erm Mm. it, it, it looks a lot nicer than Works and yo it allows you to, obviously it allows you to access Windows fonts, which is a great advantage. This is the reason I wanted it Yeah. is to have fonts and then I Yeah. You've got a super font selection. Erm Right. it lacks some capabilities of Microsoft Works. Mm. I mean obviously what they want you to do is buy Word. Yeah. Erm er for example s Mm. Trie tried to persuade Sue to ask er them if the they could all change to Word at work. Are they on WordPer WordPerfect at work? Yeah. And stuck on it for life I think. All the ones, the old secretaries who've been using it for years think it's absolutely wonderful. Mm. I d I, I don't think think it's so bad. I you know Mm. it, it, it it is unconventional in the sense that it doesn't Yeah. I, I think it's things like I was trying to do Setup last night, I was trying to set page length, you know paper size, and Yeah. erm the default font. And they're all on different menus and they're a you're trying all sorts of different keys. F, F One I don't, I don't, F Three, F One Mm. F One, F One to get your keys up, your Yeah. template for your keys and try and find out which one does what. Oops!a new disk. Whoo! Course there are versions of Windows for the Two Eight Six. Yes. I wonder if that would be worth getting? Probably not. I think they've probably lost the backward compatibility by now. Erm they're somewhat cheaper. They weren't very good. No Erm huge complaints at the time weren't there? Cricklewoods I think were selling them about sort of fifteen quid each. Erm I've got a Three Eight Six version. Windows Three Eight Six is no good to you? No. In one of the er tacky comics was selling, I think Right. it was like Windows One that was it said the last Windows version that would run on Two Eight Sixes. You playing with your mouse again? No I'm just turning the brightness up. Oh. Oh it's got a passable er database called Cardfile. Yeah. you know if you were just keeping your Yeah. records collection on it or something. I was, I, I've always said Actually it would be ideal for these wouldn't it, for these tapes? Yeah, yeah keep your accounts Set records for that and just I only got it cos we were going to run this D T P package Mm. and erm when I, when I installed it I was very pleasantly surprised, at the basically at the number of useful little applications that they threw in with it. Mm. I, I think it's, it's great for the price. Oh! I was reading the other day th th you can check this out. There's supposed to be something in here called erm it's an undocumented feature of Windows Three Point One an or n er n no it's a, it's a, it's a, an er diagnostics utility Ah for yes! er DOS or something called A D M or something like, or D M A or I dunno what Yeah I read that but it's just hanging about somewhere. Yeah. So I guess you just do a directory of all the executable files and see if there's anything in there erm but I like diagnostic programs. Does it set up a lot of directories? Just two I think one within the other. I think it sets up Windows I like and Windows flash system. Good. Well that's tidy the way I like it . Mm. Smart Drive going in, the new Smart Drive p p presumably it will put my mouse driv my new mouse driver in for me for the day when I want one? Think so. And then I can ah well I'll try a I don't know whether to try a mouse or a MyMouse. I should have had MyMa MyMouse in there and then it would have picked up the MyMo MyMouse driver. Mm. But presumably I can put a mouse driver in later? Yeah you can just Yeah get once your Windows is running it has its own setup menu Yeah. which you can go to and p Mm. do things like that. I've read a bit about sort of erm there's a special editor for a system file isn't there? Erm I don't know much about that. There's Th th a th th there's, basically there's an ord it has an ordinary editor which is sub right, it's an ASCII editor that appears in a window and it's for using, for editing the ASCII files. But I don't know enou much about the system part of Windows. Well this is, this compared to WordPerfect is an absolute dream I only actually sort of drink want a coffee or something? Yeah, yes please. there's one of my superstitions you see. What's that? Erm when I'm doing things like loading things that are close to the operating system I don't turn kettles on Avoid spikes! Oh dear! I almost turn the fridge off but not quite, no. I think oh well, so what, you know the fridge is going on a lot Mm. the kettle. Yeah. They got all these stupid fucking suggestions now would be a great time to remove the serial number . Now would be a great time to get off my screen and go back to Microsoft. are they going to ask for this at the end of the installation? I dunno Hey! type courier ? Oh better ones than that. That's just the beginning. Bold. Now this, is this is going at a fantastic rate. Yeah. Compared to the WordPerfect. Courier ten fifteen.. It hasn't asked me any questions about how weird my machine is or wh what are you doing with an Amstrad or anything. Modern . Er I think and this is the other thing that Yeah? O Olayan D L L stuff, I can just whip stuff from spreadsheets to word processors and st stick it on a clipboard. Supposedly I, I think there are problems with it working. I, I, I er I ge end up never really tackled these problems but I have heard rumours that Mm. erm not enough people exhaustively enough implement O L E in their applications file. Yeah. or you'd be able to exchange it. So the capability is there but not used Amipro We've got a version of it. What's this? Amipro Amipro We've got a version of Amipro that doesn't write. There you go, Times Roman in Hey! That's a Cambridge I think. That's a tasty one, that, that Yeah? it's a good one. Yeah. I've got erm proportional space code which is very similar to it on the Microsoft Works. Have you got Panasonic? Depends on your printer Yeah. driver. Panasonic Panasonic. Mm. I did have a, a Panasonic Times. Has this got erm joined up writing as well? Two types Er Don't remember. It's got all kinds of funny ones. . Bom bom bom . It might ask you a question about the A Twenty driver. It should be okay actually. Erm DOS Five was one of the best buys I ever made because There's something there called W S swap, I wonder if that's a word processor to word processor converter another undocumented feature. I think I s I, I never really played with Windows, I just installed it to do the job of running this one application and then left it alone. Well I I got it cos Sue needs to know, I mean the things they do at, at her work are just unbelievable. Mm. I mean there's one woman there working on a Three Eight Sixes twenty five megahertz and she works off the floppy all the time, she doesn't use the hard drive. She's got an eighty meg hard drive. Yeah, presumably it's what she's used to, she's used to floppy. It's what she's used to. And she was sort of telling Sue to do this, and Sue said this isn't is it? And I'm thinking work on your, work on your hard drive and when you've got it the way you want it and when you've got it the way you want it save it to the floppy and Yeah. erm n they won't buy disks, they got about twenty sort of faculty heads Yeah. and they can all give them work. There are about half a dozen who regularly do and Yeah. say you need a box of disks for each of them Yeah. and you keep their work on their disks and if they want it Yeah doesn't belong to the typist it belongs to the Mm. the faculty head. And if she wants to do her own bit of typing and give it to someone else sh b selection! Right no printer attached so I will have a You need your mouse. a Panasonic. Can I page down? You can probably cursor down, yeah. Or tab? Cursor down. Tab will move you to a different part of the Erm page page se search. down. Yeah should be able to do that you might even be able to jump by typing initial letter Erm but I doubt it y yes Ah there you go! I did I didn't doubt it for a minute, I thought I know this Which one have you got? I've got the K X B one hundred and twenty four That's a huge one that is. it really is Yeah. it doesn't do colour Well what do you expect? Okay. Erm That's all I want, really. Good. You might not know how to select multiple ones but Erm if I want another one I Ah, do you know what you want ? I do want. What's E P T, is that like a network? Ooh ooh I don't know Printer port or something I've never seen that before on a menu E P T E P T crunch crunch. Now WordPerfect did that Mm. It buggered about on it Mm. and Pow! and ever since then er well the only thing I've done on it since then is to just er Sue loaded Mm. WordPerfect on it to compare it with the other one and it was I er said Presumably it's just fragmented your Yeah. I said I'm going to have to clear that and delete a bit of stuff off and load it with and load WordPerfect again. Do you want to use my disk ? Que est-ce que c'est? Yes, yes I would love to, I would love to erm ooh look at that! That's so cool! Yeah I've wanted to Defrag me disk about the last month or so I've felt it getting slower. And you haven't got a utility to do it, you just have to take it out and put it back on again? Yeah. Yeah. Erm chug chug chug chug chug chug. Wow. Oh this is where it er loads all your applications. Er this I don't understand, I fucked up at this stage. Right. Setup needs to know the application name for DOS edit. Select the application name form the following list and choose okay or press enter, and its DOS editor It is in fact it is that isn't ? That's what I would call it, yeah? Yeah. So it was a good guess there. Mm. You got GEM have you? Yeah. the disks that might work Real GEM? Real GEM, GEM. Log off. the GEM GEM Well I've got one that came with erm Timeworks which is, it works properly and Mm. it looks nice. Mm. Ah this looks prettier though. Yeah, Let's see. power. That's okay. That's that is Works Two isn't it? Yeah, that's Works Two. I could, I would very much like Works for Windows some time. Perhaps we can Mm. buy it between us one day. might buy it. The people upstairs who must have got it. And the I had a look at it once, it did look a bit It is flasher. it is better it's got erm, there are things I think one of the, I'm Yeah. not sure but I think one of the things is Yeah that's right. erm that you can have character strings as the arguments of functions in the spreadsheet and database. bloody ages doing things like if, if mode so and so to work out whether it's a Monday or a Tuesday or something and then trying and everything else to try and get Yeah set something to a Monday. Mm Erm that was okay, wasn't it? No. Ah . Right, sorry that's erm none of those. Okay, so that was loading W P Fifty One. Doesn't it allow to type in ? I don't know. You do it late, okay. Yeah. Ah, that's an old version of it Works. So should I say none of those Might as well I don't know I'll say none of those because Yeah. In case they don't want to handle because it's going to, yeah and it's gonna get it's just a backup for Works Mm. for a quick and dirty on the same disk. Ooh, it knows about WordPerfect! It would! Multilabel office and all sorts of things it knows about. Slow. I don't think O S Two runs Windows faster than that! Somehow . It's, it's quite a fast hard drive you've got isn't it? It's a You've got G W Basic and M S Microsoft Basic. Yeah. I'm getting rid of one of those. So they'll all get icons now, they'll appear as icons on your er applications. On m on my highly . Oh that's good I can go round . And your mouse driver still doesn't work! Er well there's no point running the tutorial until go to mouse. Yeah er so the tutorial exit Setup exit Setup. N er s sk skip tutorial, don't exit the Setup, no exit the Setup might eliminate further setup Right. steps. Okay, right okay. Skip tutorial. Probably exit Yeah. I wasn't thinking there. Now setup remove any floppies from your drives , thank you I'd forgotten. Yes I always d forget that. We'll leave the last one in. Soft boot, restart your computer. So, erm, if I We turn him over to DOS first and modify your mouse driver file from Exactly. mine. Mm. Yeah And my button pops in and out does it? Oh well I think I'll ju I'll just play with the tab and make it pop in and out a few times Oh alright! Oh It's great isn't it? Mm. Right, loading Windows, and it was just like that eh? That Mm. was that was really painless wasn't it, considering the amount of software that was loaded. Yeah. Right it funny to see how much disk space was you've got left . Ah, now we won't edit. First of all let's use the mouse to edit, see what dri driver it picks up. Mhm No it's not MyMouse it's Microsoft it's Amstrad Mouse, cos I haven't got me real mouse with Mm, me. right. Mouse slash D one slash nothing, default It'll figure it out. Right, Microsoft Six Point Two Six, that's my old one. I think. Maybe it reads all the Microsoft there's a I think there's, oh I don't know. I think that's the old mouse driver. Well, when you have a look in the autoexec you'll probably find that there's been a few Anyway modifications made. we won't save their version in case we wreck it, will we? Er Yes we will but watch this. wiggle my mouse off. Whee! It works. Oh good Good What I though it was I haven't got a mouse pad unfortunately. Right, erm Now what's it done? It's added s Windows to your path, that was very discreet of it. So rem MyMouse. It's put Smart Drive in at the front. That wasn't there before was it? Er, no it wasn't. Smart Drive goes in first eh? Then comes dis it remmed out the com spec. Yeah . Stuck a few things, hmm? It's put in front of the path hasn't it? And it's, it's Yeah. declared a temp variable for temp files. Okay. And I remmed out those echo on Yeah, prompt. prompt Keyboard error I remmed out the graphics. Erm was there a C colon in front of that slash DOS ? No no, there wasn't. Perhaps there used to be and I lost it. Well there wasn't when I first looked at that file. Yeah. Perhaps there was at some stage and I lost it. There doesn't need to be anyway. No no got some more. Well there you go! I didn't do much to that at all actually. Yeah. Erm I don't need to touch that because No. I don I don't put MyMouse in there, I put Mouse in choose which one I want it in Okay. Well when you reboot it then remember to type your mouse command before you start Windows. It doesn't automatically boot into Windows then? Ah. No. win and various parameters to get it Yeah. So click on our we exit. We don't alter that. Yeah.. Oh Yeah it will have done things like, given you more files and buffers. We don't need to be editing w probably only gonna look at it now. Yeah, probably. No it doesn't seem to have given you any more files and buff fifty perhaps what you had before,fifteen to twenty five Yeah, okay. I guess you had enough. Er rem shell. Now you high load Smart Drive don't you? Yeah. Oh no you commented that out. Or did it comment that out? I did. You did. Cos you put the date in there. Yeah. Erm I, I thought that was a good idea, putting the date of when I remmed it out. Mm it is. I think only trouble is it's hard to put the date of when you remmed it back in Unremmed it in. Yes. Er puts that in. Right. it says in lots of we shouldn't put that in anyway, but I wasn't sure what it did. I've no idea what it does. I think it's only a Windows thing. . Okay that's fine isn't it? Yeah. Mm. character pointer. Erm before we go anywhere Wow. I want to keep up Q Basic. Er what do we want to do? see the survival guide. Wow. Erm index. That's great! You know what I have to do with my G W Basic? I have to sit there like typing in random keywords to see if it's a keyword. Yeah, it's so easier. Erm function Ah, I'm not sure whether I ever did that! is the obvious one. Hurray! Ah! So it was worth it just for that going Yeah! into Q Basic. Erm, right. You want a copy of Q Basic? Yes please! Right, well, I think before we start Windows I'll erm I'll reload I, I'll un-rem that . This is my do it yourself manual, that I just learned by trial and error. Oh, excellent, excellent. An ideal WordPerf word processor application that. Okay so you can play with your own. So we'll get out of this I think Okay. I mean we could load one if you want to play. Where are we? Er let's open something and see what we've got. Erm star dot pass Where does it keep its ? In DOS doesn't it? Yeah,. So over there then. E T this is just like sort of Microsoft Works, you can play about with that erm Yeah, it's good that. DOS. what is it? Microsoft Works is wri written in Q Basic Yeah. Erm, gorilla is throwing bananas at the gorilla and you have to get that traj je trajectory right. So if you look at the source for gorilla Ooh! you'll see I had to calculate parabola, Yeah . erm nibbles. Nibbles is an interesting one that I played one night and I was going cor! I can do this! Let's have a quick nibble, okay. Loading and parsing nibbles, one or two players. I c I, I won't be able to do any of this but you can have a quick go. Erm Shift F Five Shift F Five. Okay. Are you ready for this worm? It goes creeping round and you have to pick up numbers in order Mm. Mm. and you have to use your cursor keys Ah, right. to turn it. You don't have to play if you don't want to. I don't think I'm capable! Right, okay . I wan I want to see Windows going, I want to see your mouse going on Windows. Okay you want to see the mouse going on Windows. Now I'll tell you something else Yeah? on quite a few occasions, Windows ran until the first time I rebooted the computer. Oh dearie me. Well if Yeah. it does that I suggest that we look at it again tomorrow. Yeah, yeah that's a good idea. Erm So start your mouse d have you rebooted yet? No No I'm just thinking of using the, of using Laplink first, no, we'll do that tomorrow. No, no need, yeah. because we, it doesn't automatically draw up into Windows, that's what I keep thinking. Right. Yeah, yeah. Do you think it needs a hard boot? It should n't. W er I, I've had a lots of problems with soft boots, but that's cos I use UNIX Mm. and funny er Mm. funny BIOS. I, I have occasionally th just of sort of had a feeling I think I'll do a hard boot this time. Brr! Is it very smelly in here or is it me? I dunno. Maybe it is time to go and make a . That's Alan Sugar doing that isn't it? That display is Amstrad's BIOS. Yeah, they erm I got DOS Five, loaded it up, and it says unable to find a twenty line and I was, it was still under guarantee Mm. just about, so I phoned up erm graphics. Rentaf Rentafone or whoever do it, and erm eventually got to spoke to so get to speak to somebody. Right Oh mice driver, mouse driver. Load your mouse driver Okay You didn't load your mouse driver? No, I will do. I only having a look at it. Oh, right. Three Eight Six enhanced mode, standard mode. You know all about this? There's on expanded mode and enhanced mode. The best one's, is expanded mode Three Eight Six I reckon Three Eight Six. You could set that up in your setup options so Right. you just start it in standard mode or in default mode. Create file boot log. Oh I don't remember that. How about a boot log? Just in case something goes a bit wrong Sure,yeah fine and Troubleshooter,for when Windows does not start correctly , now that is very Yeah. very confidence inspiring isn't Yeah it? Ooh well I can do with that cos I got a Three Eight Six, it should be perfectly fast. Mine's Ah, but you need a thirty two bit controller Yes which you probably haven't got. four bit controller on this two bit controller. Sixteen bit controller are standard. I'm sure it'll be a sixteen bit controller. Yeah. I must say n nobody knows, probably a two bit. Okay Yeah. Wrong address. Er er okay. You don't need any of that stuff. I probably might. It might be able to grab some er some of me video that's not being used. Yeah. I just, I just typed in I will start me mouse, excludes all of the . That's using video memory. So these are the include and exclude Mm. things. Right, let's have mouse. Jolly good. That's right, install. I've never thought of that as a v verb Win Slash B What for? block Block Okay? Yeah, alright, I don't wanna debug it though so. Erm used for troubleshooting when it doesn't start. You a D as well? You actually have to pick a sub-option. Does it, does it mean does it, does it mean that when you use D it then doesn't work? If you want it not to work use the slash B Okay slash B and that's it. Ah on one disk for Sue this, this sort of woman who was there sort of telling Mm. a load of rubbish and Yeah. erm Sue could probably do with spending a bit of time learning about DOS, but I don't see the point. I think she'd be better off spending, they've got Windows on the machines but they run under DOS Right. erm, but I don't see why she can't, whenever she wants to look for files, copy files and sort out other people's mess why she doesn't erm this is the first , this is it is it? Ooh, ooh, ooh ooh, Nowhere ooh ooh, Hang on. Can you can we use the, oh hang on, num lock off, can we use these well hang on, we should, we should at least be able to oh if we cursor about, that's it. Yeah. go into Windows setup. Can I cursor with these? Don't know. Set up the mouse Mouse Microsoft, oh it already thinks you've got a mouse. That's a bit of a shame. Yeah, we've got a wrong driver and I didn't have one in my things so I might have to regroup with a proper let's have a look in DOS and see what mouse drivers it's got. Or Window . W i it'll be in Windo where will it keep its mouse driver, in DOS or Windows? Er Or do both I you mean in terms of directories? Yeah. Er here i i i this is where you control it from anyway. Yeah but where will the mouse driver live? The actual file? Yeah. system probably, but it might use them on . DOS erm damn erm just change,escape form that? Just escape and then we won't have done . Now we got to cursor key to go through the options. Now systems now systems Ooh hang on, hang on, hang on hang on hang on hang on hang on hang on. What? the other one, the other one is. Sorry erm it isn't a BUS do you think? What? This one. It's a special mouse port. Oh then maybe this Actually I think it's m I, I would try Okay. P S Two plus mouse P S Two And it's not ? No, well I don't think so. That system's . See that's the driver it's already using. Yeah, because that's the one it found, if it doesn't find the Amstrad one Mm. the Amstrad is hidden and it's patched. Oh. So it's messy. So Mm. I would give it that one and I Right think it might work. If it doesn't, then we're no worse than we are at the moment, really aren't we? Mhm. Oh dear. That's a socket, that'll time for a cup of coffee I think, while we have a look at, and we'll have a look at the, the boot log file in a minute and see what it did. Ee I'm glad you're here young man! Let's go to M S DOS and see if we can get the mouse working in M S DOS . It, it was working wasn't it? Yeah. Now Mouse. something about using mouse in the in the DOS box. Oh this must be like mouse . Right. Double click, test. Let's have a test. Er Oh this is where you really do need a mouse. Yeah. Changing mouse options, Mm yeah, very good bit confusing sometimes but . Er right. What y what are you doing here? Closing the, closing Yeah, yeah the window. Closing, and what, what were you doing to close it? Alt er I, I er er I a actually have three different methods there. All Mm. of them began by pressing Alt in which Yeah case the sort of top leftish menu highlighted. Yeah. In some cases I opened that menu and selected exit. Mhm. And some of them just hit return. If I had a mouse I just click in the top corner. Yeah. Which is the iconic way of doing it. Right. Erm, I'll have a look in drivers. Change but erm its settings for mouse let's have a look in drivers erm you haven't got a mouse, have you? No. any, any other sort of mouse I could have brought me mouse with me and we could have run it off the serial port erm it's a pain that Amstrad mouse. General help system. What I would like erm the, the dreaded Vine Micros sell one that's Amstrad compatible. So we don't want P S Two mouse, so it might be a, it might be just a serial port there after all then. Yeah, I don't know. It's erm I, I, I, I don' t really understand that. How, how that bit of hardware works. This is a er I think this is a slight defect in the design of the interface Mhm. erm, it, the,i the, the er means of closing a window is not always in the same place. Here it seems that it's going be generally it's in the top left menu, but some of them don't have menus. Erm Right. General General help mouse program manager now general help Oh, I know what we can do. Alt menu . Erm we've already tried . Oh yeah try to get into . Let's go into file menu and have a look at what, what drivers are about. What do you mean? File manager help or file manager ? Er no, file manager look at the fi look at the drivers that are in DOS or in Windows. Where's your Amstrad mouse driver? In the root directory I would think. When you were This would only have looked in DOS. Now I'll tell you what happens. It's a weird thing erm it starts off in the root and then it erm u used a single mouse fix to patch it and then DOS dots it. erm, how d how do we erm do it by er sort of D I R by extension. Erm I think if it, in this file menu there'll probably be an option to er t to specify Ah a wildcard. Er y Name , type is presumably extension is it? Yeah Yeah Yes. all quite tidy all quite tidy drivers and stuff together then. directories directories. And there's something called mouse. MyMouse,Mouse Com, Mouse Fix Right. Right. Now MyMouse Com is for running the serial mouse. Mhm. Erm I mean nothing to do with this one. So what happens when you run Mouse Com? Erm, how about running how about running. No I think you'd run Mouse Fix first. How about running Mouse Fix and see what happens? It can't make it any worse can it? Shell out of DOS first. Oh it just gave us a nice thing saying I've fixed your mouse, thank you very much. And it's , I reckon. No. yeah yeah, you're right I reckon. It's a funny thing for it to do. have a go? No it's alright. Now we'll try, now having fixed the mouse we'll try and run Mouse Com. Oh I hit enter. I double clicked on it what it might have done is that probably didn't need doing because Mouse Com was probably already fixed and now we're unfixing it ? Mm, well it will only be for this session anyway, movement? No. Erm no. So we haven't got a better mouse driver. Let's get, go, let's have a look at DOS. Where's DOS? It's awkward using this without a mouse. Right, let's get into DOS directory and pick up a Mouse Com or a mouse driver from there erm and execute, it will copy it into the root. Yeah? Mm, into what? We're overwriting that mouse driver there, because that is my old mouse driver I think. files So a real mouse driver somewhere? Well, that mouse runs Mm. it runs everything erm and all you do is just say mouse. Yeah. Ah, do I see mouse, do I say mouse? You say MyMouse don't you? No no no no no, I don't say MyMouse. Erm, have a look at See it's working. Okay so it's working, it's loaded. It's alright in DOS. Yeah And despite the fact that it's just been patched, Mhm. and run again, it still Mhm, and generally buggered about with. Erm so, right. Reboot it, start Windows without running your mouse driver, see if Windows will run it itself. Okay. soft boot? No hard boot with a mouse. Mhm. want a cup of coffee while it's doing it? Yeah it's definitely time for a cup of coffee. Ooh! Who's been painting the chair then? ? Who's been painting my chair Oh!if I come into your bedroom in the night and pee on you, Yeah? It's nothing personal just I get lost! haven't we? We've got but it'll be alright toothbrush I always wanted to do that I read an article somewhere this journalist Stick a pencil in You can j you can just stick your pencil in your fan and it doesn't do any damage but Mm. it's the sort of thing you want to try on someone else's get off ! My fan stops by itself, mine, Yeah? wonderful. Yeah? I was even thinking of of Is th paying is that just yours then going? Or thermostatic fan. mine going rather? Oh that's yours. Yeah it's noisy this one, It's drowning my fan out! it cos I've got a Three Eight Six see, Oh that's right. a louder fan Yeah. Vroom! Vroom! All that energy rippling off the chip. Right, well I've Is that a key thingy? What's this here? Don don't turn if off. That's the key. Oh wow. Take that off you see and no one can run programs. Yeah. Unless they open the case. Right now I I've, I've bought this copy of Windows. I'm not sure what I've done with the instructions, so it's it Oh. I suggest you start with disk one. Th that's what I would say. Unlike Works where you start with, start with disk four Disk four, and then go on to Then it's disk three, and then back to disk one and Oh. yeah. Oh, me biscuits! I'll ju I'm just going to go downstairs. Oh okay. like to go downstairs for Right, put that in and type install, how about that for a guess? Yeah, er Cos it's Microsoft yeah, yeah I think so, you could do a directory of it first now i now he says Do a directory it doesn't know ! Right. I think. Yeah, it might be called Setup,install install wouldn't it? It might be Setup, Have you never done this before? Never ever ever ever. You, you've done this fourteen times Yeah Erm I've done it with D R DOS Six, which is much more complicated. It's really easy just to do it with Windows. Now what have got there, that looks as if The f the first thing they ask you, right is i it says Expand . it says do you know what you're talking about? You know, and the answer is no. It says Go and read the manual It says would you like to accept the defaults or would you like to specify things yourself. So I always say, oh specify things myself And me ! And me! Yeah and then Right it asks you er what would you like to do with that and you say I don't even know what it is! We've got a setup here. Yeah. It looks like setup. I bet you're right, just cos you've done it forty times Yeah. you're bound to be right. And the setup sh ! Oh, Is there anything there called install ? I don't think so. There's Oh ! one way to find out. Yeah. Let's r log on to the A drive first presumably? Don't have to. Er, oh! Er Some of them you do. yeah, sometimes you have to show added precaution. Okay, so Yeah we'll try install and see if the respond Oh yeah, there are two ways to do it,D I R install. good There you go, installation WordPerfect? Ah! Oh! That is the problem with typing install. Would you like to continue ? No. Cos it's on the Yeah path. It's a, yeah Right, we'll have, we'll have explicit that A colon setup, thank you. From A colon We'll try install,bu but give it an explicit path. Okay. I'm pretty sure it's setup. Mm. We'll see. Yeah, guess so. Thank you. Well that's a good name for an installation program, isn't it? Setup. This wouldn't work for me cos I've also got, I've got D R DOS Setup on my path, so whenever I'd type setup I'd get D R DOS Setup. Or whatever it is I'm trying to configure . My , change someone's path Yeah. Yeah. Ooh that's doing something. Chugging away on a floppy. this is dead slow. This Is it? floppy. Erm, he, I complained about the disk. When Yeah. I complained before it went out of warranty and again after it had gone out of warranty and it was sort of very dodgy and I had Yeah let him do what he did. Erm, but he basically de-soldered the resistor from the motherboard, soldered another one in to make it run slower. How does that work? And why did he do that? And stuff like that. Ah he said he was go he promised that he was going to bring a new disk, and then he hadn't and then he did this and I thought mm I'm not going to get a new disk out of him now it's out of warranty and at least it's working now and Mm. it wasn't so. Okay. But wh why would disks have different speeds anyway? Erm Were they at different transfer rates? The processor speeds. The processor can't handle, you know s similar to weight space Mhm. in memory, but It's like interleave factors and stuff I mean my X T for example, Yeah. just couldn't handle the transfer rate from that . Yeah. It couldn't take one cylinder of it Right. It take two bytes at a time sector and wait for it to come round again and take the next sector. Yeah, and wait for it to come round again and t by which time it will have shoved it off somewhere and Yeah, yeah to take the next one. So Now why are you using append? Append is the data version of subst or something, isn't it? Append is where you look for data files if the path is not otherwise specified. Right, let's see what's it's got. It's just telling you to, to run it, to get rid of incompatible programs. Y you've used append to declare an append It says that the directory. is running. Yeah. Erm, they used er well M S DOS Five Setup append for me to append to its path. Why? I don't know why. It did it D you think it needs data files? Erm Cos append is like a path for data Yeah. rather than f for programs isn't it? Yeah, and I usually consid I mean don't like it but I usually think it's reasonably safe Yeah. join and subst and stuff like that which I didn't touch. Yeah, I never use append cos I don't have any need for it. No. Well you're going to have to get rid of it, so. Well I can C, C to continue setup. Er, recommended that you quit and get rid of it. Alright, let's Er F Three to quit setup and have a look at it. If this, this, this is Windows, you should be able to open a window into Setup Dot T X T and then resume your installation procedure where you left off. Rather than have to bail out and do it again. Ah, okay, okay. It's not completely set up, if you quit Setup now you will need to run Setup again . I would a based on my, my hard-won experience of fucking around with Windows I suggest that you take all recommendations yes do it totally by the book, and Right. if it doesn't work, Erm, right. you start playing with things. Okay Why are you in reverse video? Are you normally in reverse video? If I've set my prompt to that. Ah. Cos I like looking at I think it's easier It's a change Yeah it could be. Could be to read sort of black on white rather than white on black. change Erm, I'll give you the prompt if you like to do that. Make it in blue and white,. It's an escape sequence presumably Yeah. is it? Yeah, might as well. So, we'll have a look at it in a minute. What's Edit? Is that a thing that comes with DOS Five? Yeah, it's a nice little editor This is the editor that comes with DOS Six which is a clone of WordStar. It is better than, it is a lot better than Headline, on the old Oh yeah on the old DOS, and that's not saying much. No. a right-handed mouse here. I'm just going to put a rem statement in my autoexec which copies your prompt so that I can use it later. Er I'm on the A drive, that's why. Right okay. Wow, menu driven. Okay. It's nice, it's Mi sort of Microsoft standard. Mm. So, it is my config sys I'm looking for isn't it, while I find an edit. You can have Edit actually, if y if you should happen Ah! to want it because it's Basic. It's a Basic program. Erm, With what Basic it does. You need Q Basic, you need Q Basic I haven't got Q Basic's supposed to be quite good. It's not bad. I had a little I was talking to this guy the other day who works as a programmer and that's what he uses. Mm, it's pretty well structured and it's Mm. you know it does the things you need to do. Where does this come from? Now we've got a load of stuff in here, erm after the path I would expect an append wouldn't you?. Can you search for words? Y you sure can. You can even replace, search and replace. Search for the word append. I don't think it's case sensitive. It'll be in lower case anyway. Mm. Lying toad. Is it in my erm It's in your autoexec, it won't be a autoexec You can only y Right. you can only put DOS commands in an autoexec file. Okay, so let's . I'd rather autoexec No,yo you've just copied didn't you? So, so you've got your copy so you can edit this with impunity and it Yeah. probably won't be the first time you have to edit it either. No no. And it might not anyway. Beca becaus needless to say Windows has not examined all the things it wants you to fix. It's just found the first one, bombed out, told you to fix it. Right. I don't know what that does. What's that do? Switch E. Right, path. Well let's try it, erm, you haven't got DOS on that. What if you prompt prompt, oh it's not there. Can't . I'll tell you what I have got that you haven't got. Yes there's me prompt me prompt. There's the prompt. Oh. Er Dollar E open square bracket,ready ? Dollar E open square bracket zero semicolon thirty four semicolon forty seven, M Dollar, P Dollar, G. Erm after the thirty four,. Yeah. Probably,. Erm, yes. So it's escape, zero comma thirt semicolon thirty four semicolon forty seven M dollar P dollar G, Ooh er. not even want to and see what happens next time yo you get it up. Yeah want to reset your prompt to Well I wouldn't remember that one either. Ah. Right. Oh yeah I had one of those, I've got on I've got one of those on the X T,date and time. Right, I'm going to find out about append. Thank you. Er,I mean it's ancient, it's for things where you can't give a path as an argument. Use with care, blah blah blah. Slash E kept in the environment. Ah right. So it passes it when it shells out. Mhm. And the other one just specifies what the path is, doesn't it? Right. What was it? It was, path er append C slash DOS. So it's gon it's gonna muck up my path anyway erm So it's looking for data files in directory DOS, why would it do that? Why would it do that? Because it'll have DOS Help for a start. From wherever you are, you'd want Well, would it not know where that is okay, so we'll knock it out eh? Yeah, bin it. Then it won't object. Do you know what pisses me off? Is I haven't got any like super flash graphicy type programs. You know I always get, you know this could be an N D A display. When in fact it isn't, if you run the O S Two demo it looks super fa you know super fantastic. I've got some of those. Now,Alt S, Oh yeah, so you need more. It's that one, that's the same one, still on there. So What's the mode check? Erm it checks the video mode I think so if it's, if it fails,mode black and white Right. Yeah, yeah, mm, right, mm, mm more appends. Seems to go back to the start again . Yeah it goes d off the bottom and back up to the start. So that'll do, we'll save that, okay. I could be doing this with the mouse but . Right, back to the installation thingy. Oh have you got any Windows directories, on your hard drive called Win, or Windows or no, not cos if you do it i i basically can't cope with it. It tr Right. it does the worst possible thing, It tries to be clever it tries to cope with it when it can't. Rather than simply giving up or, Okay. whatever the other alternatives are. So I'm learning a lot and I haven't even got Setup running. Yeah . Oh dear. No, I've read sort of odd letters from b bewildered of, of Yeah, yeah I've, I have tried for three weeks to get my Windows loaded and Yeah. I keep getting mystery error number seventeen, or Yeah. something. Well next time buy it factory loaded. Right. The best way. Is the answer. is reading Setup inf, that's sounds good,. Ye er, it says that, it says that before. Erm actually there is a kind of a readme file, which it might not be totally inadvisable to read before installing. Ah, you haven't rebooted so you will again I've still got my old one drive Yeah Okay. er So we'll F Three and get out of that. Yeah, but's let's have a look at that erm thingy file t to see if there are any other nasties waiting. Okay. F Three to exit and Edit Setup Dot T X T On A. On B. Not necessarily Edit on A but Edit Sys Dot Dot T X T on A. Have a look at A colon Edit or just have a look at it? Ar Dunno. are we going to edit it or just to see it No, we're not going to edit it No, right we'll Why, have you got a read only editor? w we'll browse it. Ooh! It's only a list show word thing. Right. Erm, I, I just call it browsing. Ah, well the reason I always use an editor is so you can go back on yourself. Mhm. You can d do things in this. Yeah, oh show me. show me, it's A colon have a c impress me. have a copy of this over the, over the magic link Aargh! and send your registration thing off shortly. Oh, no naturally. And you'll have to tell me the name of your Er Setup Dot T X T. Ooh. Ooh that's a bit dark, I can't see that at all. No, I think probably if you pay for it you get it in black and white . Right, information about Blah, blah TSRs and stuff. Yeah it's mainly TSRs of course blue you know,I think it says, top of file. Yeah y y you s any, any of those. you can just go down a bit like that. Hang on, hang on Or you can page up and page down or you're missing the content here. Er but okay yeah if you can scroll back that's ideal isn't it? Mm. That's all you need. Erm so do you need any of those drivers, Himem, ANSI or whatever,? I do I do. Do they appear in that order? Himem Sys. C M and ANSI Dot Sys. Who knows? Not sure about the ANSI but I would put the Himem before the erm Three Eight Six. Yeah you'd have to, wouldn't you? Or it wouldn't do much. Yeah. Erm I'm not using Compaq, okay so I'll page down. I haven't got Not using a Teeger Or a Safari? No. Bet you wish you were using a Teeger I'd swap them. I wouldn't mind. You've got one on. I'll swap you for an old X T Myrtle Mm. Hey, I've got erm, I've got a er a possibly V G A card with me somewhere. Ooh. I think it's under the bed actually. Right. I probably, I probably knelt on it when I was getting the computer. Oh no! Erm Er displays. this is a par this is a paradise Increase conventional type and it, it's Is it? it's compatible with most software. Aha. So it's not A T I Graphics It's not G G I S These are the super Yeah. advantage with Well Teegers are quite flash aren't they? Oh very, yeah yeah. Okay er Er any of those Hallity is the six forty four eighty sixteen colour, no. Erm this is a S Threes are accelerators aren't they? Yeah,S Three yeah. You're not using stack fortunately. Or that do not use Smart Drive to cache the compressed file . Now I haven't got Smart Drive in. Mm it's only I had, that's the problem I had with Smart Drive and I'll take the disk doubler. It, okay i er Smart Drive's actually er Mm. good, recommended Mm. but not if you've got a disk doubler of some sort. Okay so I reckon Leave that probably get it loaded and doing something and then optimize the Smart Drive. Er well that's no er yeah Well you'll probably do it all in one go. That's the other problem with Windows is there're a lot of things you can't twiddle after you've installed it. Right okay. And not only not only can't you twiddle it, but it will let you twiddle it, not And then it and then surprise it's now a disaster. And you c you can, you can't Er thank you you run it and it crashes and Right. Okay. So do it right first time. Ah, what what it is to have an expert. That's great. Yeah. Erm erm now set up Sys, Smart Drive. Block device drivers. Ooh what have they got . Presumably that's a character device driver is it? removal, hang on Setup does not modify boot drive okay. Reference, contains references to block device drivers. Are they ta are they tape drivers or CDs? Disks tend to be, tend to be block device drivers and serial ports tend to be character device. Yeah, but erm ooh I wonder I think it might be a good idea, Yeah. to take me laplink out. So if we're going to do any laplinking It might be prudent, yeah it might be better to do it before we put Windows on. Mm, yeah, yeah. Windows directory in disk start up, er blah. Rem it rem it out and put it back in later and see if it crashes. Yeah, That's a good thought. Okay, files are already installed and Setup cannot be . That's a thought, check for a read only er cos I do have a habit of making some of me DOS files read only. Yeah but there won't be any Windows files on your disk No. so be alright. Right. changes. Those changes. That's good. Oh yeah and then you go through this like, that's quite good actually, you go through this erm split screen editor with with its proposed autoexec bat in one Mm. and yours in the other. And then in er on a case by case basis it says implement this change? Yes I Or don't or manually type it in. It's er I was told excellent I was told this is the up to date version of Mm. I asked that when I bought it of course. XGA, you wish . No, P F Two. Out of environment space. That's not very likely er you haven't got a network got a network. T S Rs Right. Got T S Rs you must have billions of them,? Erm I don't load many of them, apart from the, you know, the usual DOS ones. Right, which are what? Erm Well, ANSI It'll try and take them ANSI DOS Sys graphics Yeah. and things like that. Erm Yeah. mouse drivers Right, mouse drivers mouse drivers, take the mouse drivers out. Yeah, cos if it own it'll, it will look for mouse driver Right. er th it'll install for you, so. Oh as I remember it installs a backward compatible mouse driver which will do backwards. will do all your previous mouse jobs but also work with Windows. I reckon I know there should be, I should have an up to date driver for this one, and I haven't. Okay like it. In cache.. Good name for a computer. Mm. yeah it's erm append Append, do not use. names ooh. This is a different setup thing than the one I had, I think. Ah so you don't know how to do it at all then, right. Well, probably it's got like an expanded No. list, Yeah. than Hopefully it's easier Mm. than the one you normally use. Yeah. Root Com. Ah. Erm, you haven't got that have you? Erm I have got a copy Mm but erm you don't use it. but I haven't loaded it yet. Just as well. I was just thinking that. Boot Sys, ah actually it might be a Boot Sys I've got. . Right I don't think we'll try and get fancy, like Boot Com and Boot Sys, until we've had a good play with Windows. Cache Two Point, haven't got one of those. Or that. How many partitions have you got in the hard disk? Or that. Just the one. sixty five megabytes? Yeah. Cor Graphics. See that's erm Mm. that's a T S R. Could cause unexpected results. Yeah. Yeah. But why the graphics is just so you can do screen dumps isn't it? Screen dumps. Erm screen In certain circumstances. And something else. Erm, it definitely does, is it, you can't do screen dumps without Isn't it one of those sort of semi obsolete things that only applies if you've got M S DOS Yeah One? Yeah, I think so. Er I might have it in Graphics. Still we will get shot of it. Print screen key to print the graphics display on y on your printer So what does the print screen key usually do? It prints erm it prints words not, not pictures so if you prin Ah right if you printed that, what you got on there You get the text but not the menu bar This lot this lot all comes out as sort of Xs and Yeah. stuff and gets thrown out, so that it cuts everything, cuts it all out. Not really something you need on a routine basis is it? get the, get the graphics off, cos there might be graphics in there from Yeah. an old, an old one. Okay. disk. No, took that out years ago. Yeah, R E M M No. Someone's I B M Intell, no haven't got that. Join, wouldn't use that. No. Right. Dot Com. Load it from starting Window. Presumably you have got a keyboard command? Yeah. ? Yeah. Okay, so that's erm, keyboard and graphics so far. Yeah . menu. I've got erm Oh and ANSI Dot Sys to be at the end. Yeah. I haven't got a . quite common that one. Mirror in use. Ye yes. You cannot remove it . Okay. no no. So that, that editor is written, is erm is written in the interpreted Q Basic? The one that I was using? Yeah. Yeah. Cor. So presumably th those menus are all like, thirteen instructions They're they're standard sort of Microsoft menus with sort of Yeah. for files Yeah. Alt F X to exit. But what I'm saying is that the er m Q Basic must have the facilities to put those menus up by just sort of saying put up menu. Yeah, it's part of the erm Q Basic Yeah. It's erm I haven't d Cos I've got G W Basic and it's I haven't done anything with it. I've just sort of, I've just looked at it and thought, that will be good one day when I ever get round to programming. Does thi that comes with M S DOS Five does it? Yeah. I mean M S DOS Five I think was very good. Okay it was only keeping up with Mm. With D R DOS Yeah erm but it was an important step. Yeah. P C Quick utilities P C Quick. Do not use. That's crap. Well okay, put it this way, there's a big dispute. P C, Windows say do not use P C Quick, use Smart Drive. Yeah. The people who make P C Quick say do not use Smart Drive, use P C Quick, it will work. So there's a big argument over wh and they're both saying their one's better. They're both saying that they Well I'm sure, I'm sure Microsoft will prove it doesn't work by changing something and not telling. Changing the code, yeah. Yeah, and then say told you so. all in backwards so that on, on April fool's day or something. Yeah. I mean it's so easy to put stuff like that in isn't it? That Yeah. only DOS, only Microsoft programmes would know about. Right,little piece of code in to scramble everything. Print Print? Well you're not on a network so you're alright. Printer assist, no. Screen saver. We're going to start screen savers, that's one of the, one of its many nice features. Mhm. page , no. I keep looking at them and thinking I wouldn't buy one of those. no. There's loads of stuff. Subst no. Didn't we have P C Quick before? Yeah, this is P C Quick's dish disk cache Ah, ah right. Erm U M D. there is no reason to use two disk cache utilities with Windows . Is there ever a reason to use two disk cache utilities? Sup Again have a read and write cache Super P C K say it's better. I actually use Super P C, well I've got, I've got three machines around the office. Some of them use super P C K and some of them use Smart Drive and buggered if I can tell the difference. So they're both better than the ? Yeah. Sys Yeah. act like X M A, it's incompatible, okay haven't got that. No, you're alright. And you're as well so and that's the end of the file. So go back and edit your config sys. Right. And your autoexec. hopefully you will remember which. So which shall we do first? do both, do both. Yeah, which are we doing first? Config first. Right. Ooh this is fun. I like installing stuff actually, even though it's sometimes frustrating. Ooh, it's a bit bright isn't it, Yeah. get out of the erm Yeah. the green screen. Yeah. Okay so So you want to to ANSI Dot Sys and make sure it's after erm which it looks like it isn't. There's Himem. Oh. Nobody's turned the mouse on. Er I don't, I don't put the mouse on in the erm the config sys or autoexec bat What was two of them. You got Hi yeah, Himem, EMM, Smart Drive and C, so they're in the right order. right order Er Display Dot Sys,problem with. Right, let's have a quick look through. Yeah. We had a Keyboard U K somewhere Oh yeah countries that, that, had to go before Windows. File control box and files and buffers it will have to probably It'll change those don't need files, but it'll do those. It'll play with them so Right. Yeah, shell, it'll sort that out. What's H D Three Eight Six? Oh it was one that came with this which was remmed out. Oh, okay yeah. Erm be nice. Er DOS high. prior to DOS Five. Erm, then install equals K B Dot Com, cos that's going to go before Windows is running, so that's alright. Er, why have you remmed out fast open? Erm, I think I read it in a magazine somewhere. Yeah? Get used,space. It does use a fair amount of environment space I was looking for space for something, I've forgotten what it wa Oh I had a big spreadsheet Mm. and it suddenly starting erm swapping, fucking about a lot Mm. swapping, flashing. Okay, and it's got Smart Drive is remmed out er, it'll probably try and put that back in. Okay, well we can put it back in for it if it likes. Yeah. Erm it can set its parameters to what it thinks is suitable then. Yeah. Okay, erm now we'll rem out that I think. Okay. Yeah, that would be prudent but, yeah use Smart Drive because it, as you say it'll probably insert it with parameters it thinks are appropriate. Okay. Erm it didn't say to put Smart Drive after ANSI did it? It said to put ANSI before Windows, or keyboard before Windows? Keyboard before Windows. Oh Setver that's the thing that make it pretend to not be the Yeah. version that it is. I've got one of those. It, and the other thing is that I, I presume that it would h it would have a file Mm. it would have a list of, and it would sort of say that sort of command Dot Com,vers version three or something. Yeah. Doesn't, it holds it all, it holds it in its, in itself Mm. and saves itself again. Ah. And I though oops, I don't like playing with this Mm. I knacker it up I can't be a different version. Mm I haven't got that, and of course I couldn't run your version of setver unless I had setver cos it would say incorrect DOS version . Incorrect Setver Actually that would, that would be interesting to see, that, erm No, I think I'll try . Set Setver isn't it? Well you could yeah I guess you I er mean it's something they had to write into the program to check the version number isn't it? Yeah So Smart Drive remmed let it put one in when it doesn't find one. Okay, now all these device highs should be alright. Yeah. Oh Ram Drive Dot Sys oh that's remmed, okay, so there's no Okay. problem. Yeah. Share should be okay. Now, Share you don't need Share do you, cos you've got Five Point O. I read somewhere, at some stage, some problem that's got rid of by using Share. We'll take it out before it objects to it I think. I mean it's basically in, if it's, if in, the main reason that people brought Share in for the large media restriction of pre Yeah DOS Four, isn't it? Yeah. Erm, cos otherwise it's er it's only if you have multiple applications running. Which I guess theoretically you can do under Windows but presumably it has its own locking mechanism. And that should handle it. Okay. Yeah. Okay, so goodbye to that. So, Alt F. to save autoexec I do have to type it again. Because it's a program and you can't just have three. You could use your DOS key Edit. so far so good. Right, MyMouse is remmed out cos I don't want I don't erm I, I choose when I start, which mouse driver I start on one, one of the mouse port and one of the serial erm times. Two Why did you do that? Well one of them is this. Yeah. If you've ever used one of these you'll know why I use the other one. Oh I see. And that erm probably, possibly could run it off there as a P S Two mouse but erm I've heard That's intelligent that Amstrad mice are sort Mm. of electrically incompatible. Ooh, erm, yeah Erm and I thought I don't want the risk of blowing . I've, I've fried a mouse and a port doing that. Yeah so I thought well . Right you fool I thought what are we looking for then, down here? Stuff basically, just anything. Path. There's Keyboard Com again. Well this is what DOS Five for. So you've bo you've got it on the, on the erm config sys and on the autoexec And on the autoexec, yeah. That can't be right, can it? No. Well I guess yeah. Mode, mode check. There's a big menu here for mouse type,. What is that? Is that Er rem, let's get rid of that. What is Mirror? Oh it's remmed out. Sorry? What is Mirror? Erm you know that delete undelete Right. erm Yeah. keeps a file of what's gone Yeah and how to get it back. Yeah, yeah. That's a good sor that is it. It's, presumably it's a T S R is it? Yeah. Er rem. What does that call do. Oh you're gonna anyway Oh that, that's erm that gives me date and time. In great big, something is resetting my clock. Yeah. It's leaving the time Yeah. But it's resetting the date. Shit. And erm I'm using me diary for my students and wham straight into it Mm. and start s set an appointment for Mm. Hang on, what year? This shouldn't be a Tuesday, where are we? Whoops. Oh no. So I've just, I'm run I, I'm running No, that's terrible my important things now I'm running with a batch file. Yeah. And wel when it, when it boots up it shows that, and save that Yeah. nothing else not nothing needs Yeah, that's right changing does it? No, no, that's fine. Right, so we'll just exit. Oh save anyway in case you did change something and you forgot it. Okay. Being redundant. Right, meanwhile, back at the setup. Back at the boring old setup program unless you bloody setup Dot I N F file again. I got so sick of looking at that. I also got so sick at waiting for the bits that happen after you get through setup There's more ? Oh God yeah. It sits there all day . Decompressing Many many many disks full. Yeah. them. Right Er keyboard getting sweaty. I, I have a superstitious belief Mm. that if you're working on a floppy drive it's still better to have your log drive as a hard drive. Yeah I, I Presumably crea creating temporary files and things like Yeah, that. yeah, yeah. But a lot of these installs want you to log onto the A Yeah. drive and then run it from there. Oh it's not rebooted. Oh that's easily done. What a silly sausage, you will take that out before we reboot . That's a good idea. I've n I've been using the other keyboard all on the X T and I can't get used to this one yet. I'm still going over here for the function keys. I wonder what happens if I optimize that super store host partition. Well maybe I'll find out one day. Wendy assured my she's got backups of everything. That looks very very impressive by the way, that. It is. It's a shame I never got Does your monitor colour? No. It erm I think the card does actually. Er I think it's a colour card. That's nice, if you want, oh you'll probably want to keep it won't you? I was thinking that if you do want to get a colour one at some time Mm. Brenda is looking for a computer at the moment. Oh, right. Erm, so you might be able to sell her a monitor. Yeah. Or you might not I mean might not, you might not want Then again I'm not sure I can afford a colour one, cos it's a couple hundred quid really. Well I've seen 'em for a hundred now actually, a hundred quid. There are C G A ones about. one thing you've got to watch out for apar I go I remember I, I was thinking about getting colour monitors for work and I read lots of articles about them Mm. and the cheap ones have sort of fuzzy dot resolution and Yeah. they're actually more What do you think of that one? trouble than they're worth. I think that's good. I think that's very good. Especially especially I was looking at the C G A monitor all night, Mhm. every letter composed of dots that seem to be six inches apart. Yeah. No, I think that's very comfortable, especially in that, that blue and, whatever that is, configuration. Blue and other blue I guess. Oh. It's a bit easier to read isn't it? So, ooh hang on hang on, you're not logged into A cos you haven't put the disk in. You want to abort at that point, oh yeah retry'll do. no we won't forget about the A colon cos it's going to take it out of C drive first. So does Sue use WordPerfect on this machine? Yeah, erm she's go she's quite good at it actually. R Good, good typist, she's learning the, the limitations . I mean what does Wendy think of it? Wendy likes it. I, I I I would not, I genuinely would Yeah. not give it room on the disk Yeah. That, that's always been my attitude and I think it stinks. and that's always been my attitude and Wendy has slowly Microsoft Works Yeah, Wendy's convinced me that, that if you're a power user, which she is Yeah! you could do a lot with it If you're a power user you can afford Microsoft Word, or AmiPro or something decent. Wordwriter all that stuff I mean I know it'll do it, Yeah. it'll do everything I mean D Base and all the other things will do it, Yeah. but if you were to spend five years learning weird codes It's not that bad I mean Ah bu it's, I mean thing about WordPerfect is you Yeah. do everything twice. You say erm you want to go into sort of C colon my D I R Yeah. right and it says, and do you really want to do it? Yeah, you press enter again It wants you to press enter again by the way. What! You do everything twice in this setup program. To learn more about Windows press F one, to set it up press enter . Ping. Oh, you're not going to the help are you? Right, here you go No I pressed enter this is express or custom. This is where it's says do you know what you're talking about? I am. Which would you recommend? Er, I only used custom because Which do you I was, I was hybridizing it with D R DOS. Aha. Erm, so I'd go for express. This is a funny machine, the Amstrad Ah. so I would go for the recommended and hope by this version of Windows it knows about Amstrads and will sort it out. Because Mm. D R DOS, er sorry M S DOS Five did, I thought I was going to have a lot of trouble, and it didn't. It knew about Amstrads, Mm. knew about funny way of handling the A Twenty line and voomf! Great, okay, we'll hav let's have a go at express. Ah there is something about er an A Twenty handler for Windows. Something Mm. called Win A Twenty in fact. There is, I've Er got one. Er It's a device driver that it loads. So yeah go for express, you can always try custom later. Press enter. I, I, I don't know how to use WordPerfect and I hate, I occasionally have to. We get some disks from the States once a month, that are in WordPerfect Yeah and I have to translate them into DOS, and it's a hassle and I don't like. But Wendy, you know, can do a hell of a lot with it. I mean that is so simple to do and such a, so much better than the WordPerfect setup which Mm. last night on the X T Mm. ten minutes of disk fifteen minutes of disk maybe. Mm. I remember thinking, come on you're having me on. You're Yeah. just going to sit, see how long I'll sit and wait here and Yeah. still think you're doing something. Cos Mm. I'll that's the installation program not the Yeah,o on this erm this was the server Mm. so, every now and again it was sort of, it would sort of flash and say the server was being accessed and sort of brrp it was gone. Mm. And then there'd be a five, ten, fifteen minute wait and nothing. Mm. Nothing happened with the No, Five Point One's probably not written with the X T in mind. No. I don't think so. But, yes I mean it's very good to have this kind of feedback system when you're doing a time consuming operation. Yes and you can look at it and say, okay, we've go time to go and make a cup of coffee, or oh, this is going well. Actually it looks like we've got time to make a cup a coffee. by the time we've calculated what's th the remaining sixty five percent of which is now s down to sixty. Optimization complete. Well that's the second time I've done that tonight, so it, the algorithm th the os optimization algorithm doesn't always get it right first time. Or doesn't, you know, exhaustively optimize it on the first pass, all the time. Beep. What! Sometimes it does Insert disk labelled, okay. Now while it's there I'm going to move this. I won't pinch any of you can't can't. I won't pinch any of your Well at least take the floppy out before you move it. Why? Cos the cos the heads are very nearly in contact with that, and they'll Okay. bounce on it. Right, can hang on to that for me? Yeah sure Without pressing too many keys. Oh Control del. This is quite a nice keyboard, it's a, yeah I like it. It's very nice I think. It's quite wonderful. Mm. And four megabytes, cor blimey. Cor blimey, it's no good that four megabytes. You wanna buy it then? You want to buy four megabytes. I c i it's about four about hundred and eighty quid to update to sixteen megabytes, Yeah. which is the only update I can do, cos they're in banks of four. Right, so you've got to swap them all out. So I've got to take the four one megs out and put four four megs in. Yeah. And some people do sort of Amstrad kits and Four hundred and eighty quid! Wow. and I think for four hundred and eighty quid I could get a very nice real computer. Mm. No, it is very nice, it was very good when I first got it. Yeah. It's just like anything else, once you've got it there are As soon as you buy it it's obsolete, because it's a computer. That's it. That's it. So one's done. Number seven, number two. , I thought it came on seven disks not six. Right. Ooh, what will happen? The second disk in. I bet it reads . The really critical phase is on about disk three it, it starts installing itself under Windows. As long as long as it's not like WordPerfect's critical stage which is when you've been there for a for genuinely over an hour and a half. It says now we're going to set up your printer drivers and you'll have WordPerfect going, and it goes But yeah, when it, when it, when it starts in when it starts installing itself under Windows is when it first really goes splat and you know Oh it'll just say privileged instruction violation, Hey this is g this is going well stuff you. I don't think there is time for No. for coffee on this. Go on, ask for disk three next. and get disk three whether you ask for it or not Ah,thi this is very helpful. Sort of just having someone being there cos otherwise I'd, I'd spend a you know Yeah. two days reading the manual before I'd dare Yeah. do it. It's a fairly good It's a installation program. It's just Yeah. I had a lot of hassle cos I was mixing it up with D R DOS. Mm. I think And also I took shortcuts which I shouldn't have taken. any of the Microsoft installations try at being Mm. very very helpful, and you can see what's going on and grrr! Whoo! Stepping, stepping, machine guns ready to go. Presumably that er, that noise i indicates that it's crossing cylinder boundaries a lot. On its own particular Ooh we've got a Ooh ooh it's booted with a So when they update it, I mean people don't, you'll probably find most people don't say yes. It's yeah or yeah or yeah or Mhm. So when they update it they put Right. Is that alright? Aye. You can say no if you like . Right. What's a mapping? Mm. Erm a relationship between two objects. Erm have you heard of a many- one mapping? One-one mapping, Which many-one, one-one, many-many? No. One-many? No. Oh tt, erm hmm. Mm. Shall we go into mappings? Yes. They're very straightforward. Some people Right let's have a look. Some people tend to sort of think of functions and mapping as being the same thing. But they're not. Er let's have a look. Two sets okay? Mhm. A is a set of kids in a class. set of names. Now Michael, Tracey, Sophie etcetera. So the elements of this set are kids. In that case. And some of them have the same name. Mhm. Now erm let's say they've all got names. Okay there's, no one is called Sophie. That's, that's a picture of the mapping. It's just a tie up, between elements of one set, and elements of another set. Mm. If you've got more than one element of one set, mapped to the same element of another set, Mm. yeah? You've got a many-one mapping. . A many-one mapping. Oh right. Okay. Yeah. If it's a one-to-one relationship, like there's only one person called Michael, there's only one called Tracey, there's one called Sophie, you've got a one-one . Okay. Right. Now those are the two important types of mapping. Mhm. There are two other types. There's the one-many mapping. Where one element of this maps to, that's the one-many. Okay. And you've got the other one which is just a mess, which is the many-many. Right. Many-many is the real life mapping, it's what tends to happen. And it's very difficult to deal with. Mm. So in maths and computing and everything else, we tend to split it up into many-ones and one-manys and try and sort them out separately. Mm. Right. Now when, so two sets. A relationship between members of the sets. And basically we can draw a line between an element in one set, and an element in the other, and say that represents some sort of relationship. It can be, his name is, or, she is called, Mm. depending on which way you did the mapping. Er is that okay? That's a very very Mm. quick, what a mapping is. I can see the relationship. Mm. Where it can that apply? Right well a function is a special sort of mapping. A function can be a many-one mapping or a one-one. Mm. Okay. So if you get something like Y equals two X. There's all your Xs in there. And one Y is equal to And what happens there? Is this a one-many, many-one, or what? Well it's only one Y, Right. but it's got more than one X in it Ah. No. This is a set of numbers. X and Y are numbers. Okay? Oh I see I see. So it's not, you're looking at it as two. You're looking at it as one-to-one. If that's a five, it maps to the number ten. Right well it's one, so it's one-to-one. So it's a one-one. That's a one-one mapping, and that's a function. Yeah. Right. Erm we might have another one, minus three, plus three. Nine. Okay this is That's a two-one, that's a many-one. Y equals X squared, and that's a many-one. Mm. Often in maths it'll be a, a two-one. But it's just, just called a many-one. Those two are functions. Right. Yeah. One-many, sorry many-one or one-one are functions. Mm. The other sorts are not functions. Mm. Erm now if someone says draw a graph of this, Y equals square root of X. Well let's say this way. Y squared equals X. Yeah. Right that's not a function. Yeah. Why not? Because there's Y squared Y and Y. Erm what value, if these are always look at it X to Y. Right? Yeah. Those are the Xs, erm X is nine. sixteen. Yeah. What would the Y be? Four. That's one answer. Mm. What's the other one ? Minus four. Right. So this is a one-many. That's a one-many mapping, and it's Mhm. not a function. Now most of the stuff that we're, just about all the stuff that we're dealing with are functions. So before even we get to, is it continuous functions? Is it even a function? So that's not a function. If we chop one of these out. And we say we say something like, Y maps to the positive or you can say the negative square root. Okay? Y maps to the negative square root of X, that's a function. Y maps to the positive square root of X, that's a function. Mm. But just stated like that, it's not a function, because it's a one-many. Cos you never Eh? know with a root Yeah. whether it's positive or negative. Yeah. Now this comes into when we start with, when we get onto inverse functions. Have you done inverse functions? I don't know. I don't think so. They don't ring a bell. Erm well they're part of the G C S E syllabus. Mm. I think I've probably done some point or other. So, yeah. Erm a typical thing they, they give you is, so you're happy with That. mappings? And a function those are functions. Okay. Many-one and one- one. Put this on the back here functions on. If you, let's say we have erm something like, Y equals X squared. Mhm. Right. That's a function. Mhm. It's a, what sort of function is it? Is it one-one or a, a many-one? It'll be it won't be a one-one . That's got more than one value in it. That's got, that's got one value. You're okay, you're this function. Mm. You're that function. I give you the input and you tell me the answer. Mm. Erm six. Mm. What would you give me? Thirty six. Okay. Five. Twenty five. So it's one-one. Minus five. Still twenty five. So there's, it only needs any two numbers anywhere in it, to give one number. Right? Yeah? And that makes it a many-one, that's, in fact that's many-one for right. every value you can give it. So that's a many-one function. Now when you try and get the inverse function. To come back, take the square root of X, to find out what Y is, that's not a function. And they, they will give you things like this and say, find the inverse function. Yeah. So as that stands, just take the square root of X, not a function, and you'll have to restrict it. And say, well we'll either if we restrict this. See you don't restrict the When it is a function. the value of X here. You restrict the value of X when you start off. So let's have a look at this. We've got positive and negative numbers here. Mm. Right. And there's plus five, and there's minus five. Now what can you th th this is all the real numbers, right? Mm. What can you say about X squared? That's positive Always positive. Right. So you'll only get the positive. Yeah. So there's no way of getting back, with the inverse function, to any of these. Mm. If you're going to take the positive square root. Mm. When it comes back. If you take the negative square root, there's no way of getting back to these. Mm. So the only way that you can make, I mean this is a function. That's a function as it stands. Yeah. It's a many-one. And if they want the inverse function as well, then you've got to restrict the function, the first forward function Mm. yeah? And you've got to say, that, we'll restrict this, right, restrict it to all the negative numbers. Yeah. So the forward, function is Y equals X squared, which always gives you a positive and then the function comes back, it's coming back that way, Mm. will always give you the negative square root of that. Yeah. Yeah. Minus the square root of Y, will give you the X back that you started with. Or you could make it the positive, but you can't have both. Mm. Okay. So most important thing about functions, is what sort of functions is it a one-one or a many-one? Mm. So the first thing, is it a function, the first thing, and then two, if it is, is it many-one or one-one? Right. And if it's many-one,does the inverse exist? Right, now if it does, and it's many-one, yeah? Mhm. If the forward function many-one, then you've got to change the forward, you've got to restrict the input. Okay. Mhm. Erm so you restrict acceptable values of X. Say we're not going to accept any negative numbers in this. Mm. Right. And then it'll work both ways. You can square it, gives us plus twenty five, come back, take the square root, it'll give us plus five. Ignore the negative square root, because something that gives you two answers, Mm. is not a function. Okay. coming back would be one-many not a function. Yeah. Okay. So this, restricting the input, is one of the things that we get on, inverse functions. You restrict the input, to the forward function, Yeah. so that when you come back, there's only one thing to come back to, there isn't a choice of two. It doesn't matter though because you, you put it down as negatives. Doesn't matter which one. It doesn't matter which one. What, what you have to say here, for this one, right, we restrict X to say X is less than the of zero. Mm. Right then that'll be the inverse. If we'd have had X greater than or equal to zero, right? Mm. Then the inverse would be . square root of X Mhm. coming back. It doesn't matter which way you do it, but you can't have both. Because coming back won't give coming back No won't give functions. So erm a many-one function, usually be a two-one, and will usually be symmetrical. Mm. So if you think of what Y equals X squared looks like,yeah? Yeah. It's symmetrical because for minus and plus five, you get the same value of Y. Yeah. So one way of just looking from the graph and sort of re reminding you, oh, hang on, we've got a many-one here, we haven't got a one-one. And it's symmetrical. And usually, the even powers of X, or anything, even powers of X plus something else, is going to have some sort of symmetry. Okay. So that's a little quick rundown of what a mapping is, Mm. and what a function is. Erm so what are the important things about a function then? Erm I don't know. Have a guess. Erm What sort of functions can you have? You can only have those that you just said. Which are what? Many-one and one-one. Many-one and one-one. Okay. Erm now what about this continuous thing, what's that all about? How do you mean? Functions being continuous. Oh. What's that about? Do you know like, the relationship is Erm well anything you like about what continuous, what a continuous, properties of continuous functions. And what's the opposite of a continuous function? Okay if it's, if it's not continuous, it's discontinuous. Right. Right. What's the difference between a continuous function and a discontinuous function? Go on say what you one goes on, and one stops. One stop. Okay. A dis a discontinuous function has got a at least one point of discontinuity. Mm. There's a point where something weird happens. It usually flips from one range to another, but, but mainly, there's a point where the function doesn't exist. Yeah. Erm, why doesn't it exist? Because it's not defined. Mm. It's not. There's no mathematical way of defining it at that point. Erm the maths breaks down, it's not valid. Mm. And that nearly always means . Mm. So how would you, if I just gave you an equation, of a function, Mm. what would you look for, if you were looking to see whether it was continuous or not? I'd probably look like on the, on the others, Yeah. Right you'd look at the bottom of the fraction, Mm. and what are you looking for there? What's gonna equal zero. Any values of X that would make the bottom line zero. Mm. Erm and if it's expressed as a number of factors, Mm. you'd look for a value of X that you could e make . Er what's the other thing that's likely to happen, around a discontinuity? Something that you mentioned earlier. He must have ran out with my copy before, cos this is different. I think he did, I think he said he'd go and get you another one. No I said it doesn't matter cos Erm does it put you off with Mike there? Mm sometimes cos i it does it doesn't put me off I get very self conscious Yeah. Erm this, this happens a lot, if I've got sort of kids and the parents are sitting in, useless. And I'm thinking, this kid's alright normally, and they're sitting there I should know this. Yeah So That's how I feel,. Well he, he doesn't I know he doesn't really No I, no I don't think he he's not gonna No I know It's up to you. It's if, if he criticizes me later on . And erm No I know it's We were just discussing whether your presence is, is putting the student off. Yeah erm I did wonder. It tends to be the case . Yeah it's just, somebody else there Yeah. you're thinking, Oh I'll er er I think I should know this and erm Yeah. he's just told me, just told me . Er get off now if you'd rather. It's just you have er a habit of when Peter explained stuff, you pipe up. Mm. I piped up? No I think it's a good idea to Yeah. Erm the work with two students, very often the one that I'm not working with can be learning more, because they're not sort of, ooh he's gonna ask me a question. You know. And it's ea it's very easy to watch two people talking and think, ooh that's what he just said. He's just asking her what he just said. Easy. But if you're the one who's being asked Sat there. the question, you're thinking, ooh ooh no, which er is it important that I word this exactly ? And you get a bit off-put. Well I did have a thought Mm. Mm. Why don't you do what John is doing, where he's Yeah. Yeah. It's a good idea actually. Yeah. Okay. Yes. Erm Oh okay. So you won't object to me No I don't object to you taping this no. I was just gonna say erm that provided, provided this is working alright, you could just copy this if you've got a fast copier. No I, no I, well I have, but mine's mini tapes. Okay. No it can be very off-putting. Even, even if you're just totally No I did think that myself. in the background. I didn't intend Erm sort of staying that long anyway. Yeah. Because especially when someone says, you know, this is what a continuous function is. Now what's a continuous function? And the person who isn't being asked just trot it all out exactly what I've said. Yeah. Even if it doesn't mean anything they don't have to understand it, they just have to remember the words, yeah. Er it's, could be very . So how are you? Oh very well. I've got too much work to do. Got er enormous assignments to do. Which should have been done a long time ago, and I've been given yet another extension. Right. Okay. So what's the other thing that happens round a discontinuity? That you were saying your lecturer explained about one- one session in the first half an hour? You went, you went to his lecture? Mm. He gave one lecture on this topic. The asymptotes? No he, he, I didn't make that lecture. He summed that up in one lecture. No. Yes. Okay. Right. But I'd missed that one. Right. Okay. And it wasn't until I got back that they'd said he was doing asymptotes . Right. Right. Well that's h what How do you get them? That's what often happens, round a discontinuity. Doesn't always happen. Mm. Erm if, if you have a function, erm right, a function is a mapping, Mm. a mapping is, you start off with one set, and you have another set. Mhm. They don't have to be numbers, they can be people, trees, names whatever you like. And there's some tie up, you could, you could draw a picture, and draw a line from one to the other. Say, that maps onto that. Yeah. map onto people mapping to names. Mm. Erm now a function is what sort of mapping? Er many-one. Or? One-one. The one-one is easy to deal with, the many-one . You can, you can do lots of functions with numbers. Mm. And we tend to maths numbers. We concentrate on the ones that are numbers. But the properties of mappings and functions apply to other things. Erm we'll also tend to work with continuous functions. Nearly all the time. Most of the stuff you've met so far is continuous functions. So you tend to think, all functions are continuous aren't they? It's obvious, you know. No. They're not continuous. Erm so you're, you're a function generator, I'll give you a number, Mm. you do the function to it, and then you pass it back to me. And your function is designed as, when I give you a number, you give me the nearest integer, which is just above it. Which is equal to, that's equal to it or just above it. So one point two? One. Just above it. Oh you mean one point Nearest, nearest inte nearest integer above it. two. Right two, okay. One point three? Two. One point nine? Two. Right one point nine recurring? Two. Okay. Two point two. two point fifteen zero one? three. Well it depends how you defined it. I mean I said, the erm it's the nearest integer which is equal to it or above it. Ah. Yes. Mm. We're not talking of rounding, we're just talking of a function that's made up. Yeah Right. So if you draw a graph of that, Mm. Right. Yeah. There's X and Y and erm one, two, three, there. Nought goes up to one, well nought is actually nought Yes. Just after nought goes to one. One. And then it suddenly jumps, two, then it jumps to three, then it jumps to four. And at these points here,infinitely small little region of the graph there, where the graph doesn't exist. Okay. Yeah. There isn't any asymptote. Yeah. It's just a ser a little staircase, a series of flat short straight lines. That's a function. Mm. It's got one input, and it's got one output. Right. It's a one it's a one-one function. Doesn't look like a function, but it is a function. So maps to nearest integer equal to or above, nearest integer greater than or equal to X. Erm Did I say it's a one-one? Yeah. You said this is like these are one-one functions. Did I? I'm sorry if I did. Tell me, is that a one-one function? Well I wouldn't have thought it was a one-one function. I'd have thought it was many-one . So many-one. many-one. well I've given many, many different answers here, I could have been here all day, giving you just between point five and point six, and you'd have been giving one as the answer every time. So no So it's many inputs to one answer. That's it. And one input to one answer. Right, and that's a function. There are other things which are mappings, one input many answers. I've never recall doing anything like this before. Well Unless you possibly did it at G C S E in about three minutes. Well these are mappings, we don't bother with them, but here's functions, that's what we do really concentrate on. And even then, you probably wouldn't have bothered with discontinuous functions. He'd say, here's a function, Y equals X squared. And it, it is continuous and it looks continuous. Yeah. And you just assume, well they're continuous aren't they. So when you come to discontinuous I mean there, there are functions it sort of throws you a bit. Yeah. There are things that I have thought to myself about these. Where you have got a function because you can manipulate them so much, and turn them around, and I thought, there must be points along functions, where it is, it goes against the rules, Right. when it doesn't exist, or when it is invalid. Because I know that's a part of maths is picking those points out. And knowing and understanding the Yeah. points . Yeah. The big erm you've probably seen proofs proving quotes, that three equals two, and things like that. And they're nearly all, all the ones that I can think of, are based on division by zero. Yeah. Now if you've got a function which has got a discontinuity in it, and you don't pick that out, Mm. and you try and put those values in, you, you can prove anything. So the answer that comes out, is just rubbish. Mm. Because somewhere, you've, you've done a division by zero. And this is sort of right at the beginning, by assuming that the function was continuous when it wasn't. Yeah. was just sort of setting all up for yourself to fail really. You know set this trap for you. I think that's what's the part of it all is because with maths, there is so many rules, there's so many Well different parts. There's o it's, I mean if you think of languages, it's dead simple, maths. It's erm zero is not accepted as a number by a lot of mathematicians. Yeah. Cos it doesn't follow all the rules. Mm. You can do subtraction, addition, division, multiplication, with all the numbers apart from zero. Mm. You can't divide by zero. Now because of that, you can multiply by . Yeah, you can multiply that's fine no problem there. It's only the division by zero Mm. erm because it doesn't follow all the rules, they say, well it's not really a number. And it's you know, some say yes, some say no. I tend to think it isn't. Well it's a neither entity. It's er it's an oddity. Yeah. It's a neither entity, cos it's Yeah . neither that side nor that side. Mm. And considering it's not just the band that it's on, it can stretch to the band Yeah. either way. Because it's so near And it's, it's, it's more of a number than minus one. Yeah. It's closer I mean it's, it's real. How many elephants are there in the room? None. None. Okay. Mm. Have a look and see how many elephants you can see. Oh minus four. What? How many cars out, how many cars out there? Minus six. It's rubbish. Mm. But the rules work very nicely. But they don't work for zero. So you have to be careful of zero. Mm yeah. B I think what it is it's purely because, in electronics or when you're working out an equation, for a value for something else, Yeah. if you had a zero, on the bottom line at all, Yeah. then it is, it does, it's not that it's invalid, it's not that it's, it can't be, it's purely it's, infinite. And that's what you're taught in electrical in electronics. You say it's infinite Erm right. Okay well a mathematician will s a mathematician will say, if it's nearly zero, No these are when the value is if it's as close as you like to zero, Aha. then it's infinite. If it's actually zero, who knows. We d our rules don't cover it, we don't know. You're in the realm of sort of metaphysics then, it's not maths any more, it's division by zero. Mm. For all practical purposes, you'll normally get an asymptote. And you'll say, well it's getting closer, as it gets closer and closer to zero it's getting bigger and bigger and bigger, so when it gets to zero, it'll be infinite. I mean a simple thing is erm, if you, if you spin something like that for example. Yeah. As it goes r you've heard something sort of er say an ashtray going round on a hard surface. And at the point of contact, goes round faster and faster. Yeah. Right. Now what happens when it's going faster and faster, you can graph it, and you can see it going right up. Mm. What happens when it's absolutely stopped? Does that mean that the point of contact is now whizzing round infinitely quickly? No. yes no. Who cares. It doesn't matter. Mm. It's just that what it means is, our model has broken down. Yeah. Our mathematical model of what's happening erm gives us a bit of a silly answer really. Mm. That point of contact is whizzing round infinitely quickly. Doesn't look as if it's moving at all to me. It's not moving it's just that the model, when it gets pushed to its limits, doesn't work any more. Mm. Erm so whether you think of it as the point is now whizzing round infinitely quickly, or it just stopped, Mm. it was really going faster and faster and faster and suddenly it stopped dead. . It's a discontinuity. Mm. Okay. So there's the real world and there's maths. It's like that with everything there's Well ideal, and there's what really happens. Maths explains things very well, up to a point. As long as you stick to the rules. And there's two, two main rules. One, does the maths faithfully follow the real world? Does it model it correctly? Mm. Yes, that's okay. And then there's the other rule,i is it valid within the rules of maths? And when you come up against it,division by zero, it's not. And whether it's electronics or physics or maths or anything else, erm when you get to the point where you're dividing by zero, you have to say well now we leave the, the mathematical model, and we just go back to the common sense model. Mm. Right. So I mean, what do you mean by infinite, in a circuit? To get zero resistance for example. In a Well it straight circuit. It's not ze zero Have you got infinite current? Yeah basically. It's not bec the relationships Well what have you got infinite current? Well no no. We wouldn't have infinite current. Okay. I mean you start off with a, a fixed quantity of electrons that you can push down this superconductor. Mm. What it basically is I think, is that potentially it can be infinite, because there is not Okay. a fine line What's infini what's infinity cubed? That's still infinity. So it's a very, it's I think that's a very imprecise idea, this infinity. Well that's that's what it is. Yeah. It's because it's imprecise that they, they refer to it as being infinite. Yeah. Because it's unmeasurable. It, potentially it can go to infinity. Erm, right, not necessarily. Erm I mean if you were working with erm solid state circuits, and you're talking about microamps, Mm. someone puts a hundred amps through it. Mm. That's infinity. Well it is but If you're talking about power transmission, right, and somebody puts erm two hundred kilowatts Mm. down a wire, well that's a small value. Mm. Erm But I think that So infinity just depends on what's big enough to swamp the little bit that you're looking at. And there's all different types of infinity. But usually I think ours have been it's more it goes down to, not actual being but a an actual reading, it goes down to potentially what it's capable. Right. Or p because you can't take a measurement for, there is a relationship between whatever's going on, but you're looking at so many different functions within one actual function. So it's coming back to functions again. That you've got to look at little bits at a time. Mm. If there's any discontinuity, you'd normally look either side of it, Yeah. and see what's happening. I mean, with the Y equals one over X that we were looking at on Friday. Like that on one side and like this on the other. How do they get from minus infinity, Mm. bigger than any number you can possibly think of, to plus infinity, with the tiniest change in X. That you could imagine. Mm. I mean tinier than that, tinier than that, and it just flips. Well round about that point, We've got to be very careful because, we've got to be very careful about interpreting the model as reality. Right and this Mm. is where a lot of the problems come in. If you get into the maths, you get into the model, and you start thinking of it as reality erm even in a circuit, say simple things like Ohm's Law. It's a good approximation, but it's not true, cos the more current you put through, the resistance goes, the temperature goes up, so the resistance changes. Mm. So it's not true, but it, you know, it's good enough, it's a very good approximation. Erm but you get some circuits where the only thing you're interested in is the tiny deviations from Ohm's Law. Mm. So it's, it's looking at very small parts of the graph if you like. Very small Mm. areas of the function, where things that are a little bit out of the ordinary start happening. Yeah. And when it's things like division by zero, that's the time to, to s back off and say, well, we've got a model that works, that side of zero and that side of zero. When it's actually zero, forget about the model, Mm. because the rules that we've made for ourselves in maths, er we will, we're about to break those. Yeah. So we just get away from the model now, and see what happens in reality. And it might be that infinity is a hundred amps, or Mhm. two amps or erm five years if you're talking about charging up a capacitor or something. It's you know, if you're talking in milliseconds and then you go to five years, Mm. that's infinity. But it's easy to get carried away with these, oh well infinity infinity, is still infinity. Mm. It's just something which is so big, that for the problem we're working on at the moment,you'd be there forever, or you'd be there from here to the moon or something. Mm. It's just something that's very big, compared to what we want. Right. Okay. I don't really think that should erm I mean half of it is not true anyway. half of it's not true and the other half is lies. Half of it, no where there are so many and so much in electronics which conflicts with one another. And the same with electrics. Yeah but, so your electronics is a complicated subject and erm I mean if you just go to quantum theory, Mm. something can exist in, at that energy level or that, Mm. and nowhere in between. Mm. Well how does it get from one to the other? Well it jumps. Well it jumps. Well don't you see it going past, if you stood in the middle and watched it, there it goes? No. Well why not? Because it's an energy that you cannot see. It's a potential energy Or measure or You can't measure it. Mhm. You know that Well surely you could measure it as it went from one to the other? No. You would know about it Okay, so we've got something that's a bit weird. Like this sort of this function of jumping . Right? Tiny erm you can't explain it with maths any more. You can't explain it with the funny little rules that we have for how your potential and different things vary in your circuit. That breaks down. Mm. And we've got a point where back off from that, say, well let's have a bit of common sense, what's happening here? Mm. Mm. So it's, it's all about realizing the limitation of your model. So that people absolutely spot on, always. It's not, it's a very good approximation most of the time, it's an awful lot better than erm you know,wh what sort of current do you think's flowing in that Joe? And he sort of puts his hand near it, oh it's a bit warm, oh I'd say about a couple of amps. What about that one,. It's not very scientific. Mm. So using the maths helps to get it more and more accurate, but there comes a point where it . That's, that's, that's what happens. So that's a weird function. Mm. Right sort of you could, I mean you could do the rounding up function if you like, which is what we were sort of point five or above it goes to the next int integer. You could draw a function for that. Mm. It's a many-one. If you try and do the inverse function, Mm. it won't work. I give you one point two,give me two and I say, Well okay, you gave me two, now what did I give you. It could have been anything. Mm. But if I restrict my input to integers Mm. one, one, three, three. Okay, you've got three. Well it would come from three. Now the only way to make that one-one, is for me to restrict my input to integers. And then you can get back, and use the inverse function get back, from your answer you can tell where it came from. Yeah. But if it was many-one in the first place . Yeah? So that's the big difference in functions between many-one and one-one. Mm. Okay. It's recognizing the many-one. I mean I know it's obviously, it, it's got to be summed up and if you've got five inputs and you come out with one answer, you are not going to get the inverse of this one out. Because there are five inputs. So your on your only answer is, well it could have been any one of these five. That's a mapping, Mm. fine, but it's not a function. No. And there are special things we can do with functions, and we need to make sure they're functions before we do them. the other thing is, functions split into ranges, which each ra each bit of them, each range, is continuous, but the breaks between the ranges . Yeah. Now erm, you're making some notes on what to look at when you're drawing the graph Right. Function. Is it continuous?whole range? If not, okay. So maybe erm maybe up there. Put it in if you like, doesn't matter. And label it one, put that two. Is what sort of a, well is it a function, is the first thing. And then what sort of function? So is it a function? And is it a one-one or a many-one. And if it's a many-one, watch out. Alright? Yes. if it's a many-one, watch out, cos you're going to need, what you're going to have to do if you need the inverse function at any time, Is restrict i is restrict that many-one, choose your input so that it will make the forward function, a one-one. Okay? So very simple function Y equals X. Y equals X plus two. No problem with that. Beautifully well behaved, you can see what it's doing, nice and continuous. the inverse function very easily. Unless let's, let's say erm Y equals X plus two. Yeah. Okay. Erm you're the you sort of generate the answer so er if I say three,. Okay. Now if you got five, where did that come from. What must I have given you? Well if it's something plus three, then you must have given me two. Right so to get back to what I gave you, you'll take three off. Mm. Erm let's say, you finished up with zero, Mm. where did that come from? Well if it's plus three, you must have minus three. Okay. Now let's say, erm only positive numbers are acceptable. Mhm. Alright? Mm. Erm we have to restrict the input, I'd have to restrict the input to three. Greater than or equal to three. Mhm. Okay. Erm so this, this is what happens in addition and subtraction. Mm. Erm when you get you know, sort of,what's, what's ten take away eight? Well two. What's eight take away ten take away ten? Can't do it. Right. True, you can't do it, if you're restricting yourself to a positive answer. cos you don't get minus two biscuits. You know . How many biscuits do I get today? I've been very good. Oh, you get minus two. Okay? Or if you'd have been naughty, you'd have got minus six. I think nuts. Yeah. It's very eas I mean, you're, you're very happy with negative numbers. No. No? . They do a very very useful job, we'd be lost without them. Yeah? Especially in circuits and things like that. But they're not real. No. I mean, they're even called reals but they're not. No well I wouldn't have looked at them from that, from the point of view of Yeah. if you've got greater than, and you are taking away Yeah. then I would see, yes this is negative. Yeah. But I would not see it as when you're looking along the because that's the first way you're taught it. Yeah. I always find plus three or whatever. Yeah. And you're looking and what, what, what relevance is all this got to it because it's not, nothing's given negative, Yeah. cos you don't give somebody nothing or less than nothing. Mm. It's nothing and that's where it ends. Yeah. So that as you say, you don't get minus two biscuits, you don't get minus three apples, you don't get minus, you know nobody gives you a minus amount of money. You can't, it's not, you can't touch it Well the bank does. And it works. No no th the bank says that you, you owe them. So it's just switching it the other way round. So what's minus one. Really, it's an operator that rotates a vector through a hundred and eighty. Your vector is, your vector's which way the money's going. And minus one rotates it. Mm. Puts it the other way round. Mm. Yeah. Which brings you on to what's the square root of minus one? Mm. what's the square root of minus one? You can't have a square root of minus one. Well you use it all the time in electronics. You cannot have J minus one is, well no we use Okay. J as a minus one Well yeah. Okay. because they realized that they needed it to invent something to fall in to what they've already got. . So they needed to invent negative numbers. So they invented them. I meant I mean, we don't like saying, we can't do it, in maths. So we say, oh well, we can do it, but we'll have to invent another sort of number. Mm. And there aren't many Mm. extras that we have to bring in. It's like matrices. I mean, I know that's a method of of counting Erm okay. Matrices. Matrices well I mean it's And I've told you minus one is er an operator which rotates a vector. Mm. so what's the square root of minus one? There's a, there's a vector. Mhm. this is any, any old vector. Multiply that by minus one and it becomes that. Now I'm going to, what I'm going to, what I'm going to do is I'm going to operate on it. some operator, that keeps the same magnitude, Mhm. but rotates it anticlockwise through ninety degrees. Let's, let's call this operator . Let's call it omega. Omega. So omega operating on V gives you the same but rotated anticlockwise. What happens if you do when you've got the answer there, you operate it you operate on it again with omega? Goes to minus V. So this thing Right. Okay? If you do it twice, do omega squared on it, and it's equivalent to multiplying it by minus one. Mm. as the square root of minus one. And that's the, that's the J that you use in your electronic circuits. Right? Now vectors are already a bit of a weird thing Mm. without bringing that in. But negative numbers are more weird than anything you'll ever meet in maths. Mm. Right? But everyone accepts it. Mm. Gets used to using them as if they're real. They almost, almost be over to the window, saying, look at those minus three cars and, and wondering why people didn't understand. Mm. Erm so anything to do with minus one, or negative numbers you expect weird things to come up. But that's, that's, that's all the square root of minus one is. Mm. You, you get used to the idea that all squares must be positive, so a negative number can't have a square root. Okay, well negative numbers are funny things anyway. Well this is where, I mean this is like this comes into omega squared will came in to electronics. The J notation will come in Yeah no normally in maths you have you use I. Mm. Right, in electronics you use J. So it's A plus I B. For a complex or an imaginary number. Wonderful names. Guaranteed to put you off. What are you doing today? Imaginary numbers. Ooh we were doing complex numbers. That sounds hard. They're, they're just, I mean, if you're doing things like A plus B times A minus B, or X plus Y all squared, no problem. Mm. Somebody else looks . What's that? Numbers. No they're not they're letters. So it's, it's developing the degree of abstraction. So that you move further and further away from these nice familiar counting numbers that you learnt. saying they are, one, two, three, algebra Erm Because algebra is letters, and if you have got er something which is you need a root of it or,you can do it with a number, you can't do it with a letter. Mm. You just have to put the indexes up with the letters to say what you're going to do to it. Er algebra is similar to, if you like erm if you think of English. You can, everybody who can talk knows what a noun or a verb, an adjective, an adverb and things like that are. And what the rules are to using them. But they don't know that they're called nouns and verbs. Yeah. And if you said, draw me a picture of a typical sentence, they couldn't do it sort of, noun, verb, and probably another noun. Mm. That's what most English sentences look like. Erm well what are all these funny things, there're no words in that. They would say, oh yes, he went to school, she picked a cat. Give you millions of examples, but they're just examples, they're not sort of showing you the shape of it. Yeah. And showing the essence of it, and what is true for all numbers. Mhm. So when you go into the algebra, you're extracting what is true for all numbers. A times B, is always equal to B times A. Right. integers. if you're talking about matrices, Mm. it's not true. But matrices aren't numbers. No. They're a number are a set of numbers in a weird shape . so having things like division by a matrix, when the matrix happens to be zero. what does that mean?division by zero sounds like a good way out here. We don't know. Invalid. Get out. You know. Good that's got out of that one. Erm if I put that on my exam Well I, I'd give you some marks for that. Well I mean we're doing matrices and I know matrices sort of, comes into I can't remember wh which part of it, because it's I know it's later on it's about . Mm. But it actually comes in with differentiation, to work out circuits. And I'm really not looking forward to that one . No I, I wouldn't be looking forward to that Because I, I can remember doing matrices on G C S E. Most of it, I can't remember. I can remember having a particular question, which is what's this matrix equal to, when it's the inverse of zeros? . What the hell? And it's something to do with getting the num the, the system so you've got zeros in and I didn't understand what the heck it was on about. Well they're probably just asking you, asking for the answer that I just gave you. What happens when the inverse is Mm. erm when the determinant is zero. Mm. And there isn't an inverse. Why isn't there an inverse? Cos dividing by zero. Mm. I mean there might be millions of them for all we know, but we can't find them using our system of maths, cos ours does not allow division by zero. Yeah. Because we try to relate it to the real world. Yeah. Yeah? Mm. And division is sharing out between sharing it out into so many sets. You can think of it as sharing it out between people, share that ten pound out between ten of you. No problem. Share it out between none of you, the process goes on forever. shared out. You can't do it. Mm. Mm.. Okay. Back to, back to functions and drawing pretty pictures of them. If it's many-one, be very careful. You need to restrict input so that, so that they usually call them a forward function. So forward function, is one-one. Right? Yeah. Then . Okay? Because if the forward function is many-one,forward function is many-one, then the reverse mapping would be is going to be one-many, which is not a function. Mm. So we're going to have . You can't, you can't, you can't have one rule for the forward and one rule for the backward, it's got to be the same rules for all, so you restrict the input for the forward function. So that makes it a one-one. And then the reverse. Well if, if the reverse exists. Mm. might now, might not always. Erm for example you could have a function, erm saying Y Y equals zero times X. So all the answers are going to be zero. X. Okay? So you'd have to restrict that a lot. You'd probably just restrict it down to two numbers, zero maps to zero and zero maps back to zero. Mm. That would be the simplest. Yeah. Erm there are other ways of doing it. So you're interested in what sort of function you've got. Is it a function for a start. If it is, is it many-one, one-many? Mm. If you're going to have to find the inverse, you're going to need to restrict it. . Number two then is, is it a continuous function? If it is , if it's not, then they will often ask you, for what range is the function for what or ranges is the function continuous? And if you exclude the points of discontinuity, then the bits in between often from minus infinity up to plus infinity Mm. Those continuous well behaved functions. Okay? Mm. And on those points where they're not continuous, anything can happen. So you know So it looks as if it's going off to infinity or something, but On this bit here. This was your question. Yeah. of X where you just want it is continuous. Right. So obviously, it's not continuous at that point and around Right. that point, and it's not continuous around that point. Right. So would, what I was wondering is, is the continuous going to be, up to there and after there, or can it be up to there, in the middle mm right. So there's three bits. I mean probably, I haven't looked at that function, but it's probably from minus infinity, up to as close as you like to minus three. Yeah. But you can't actually get there. No. And then flip just to the other side of minus three, again minus three, plus the tiniest bit, Yeah. And it's now, it's continuous again all the way up to but not including plus four. So when you give your limits, Mm. Be very careful with your less than or equal, greater than and equal. Whether you put the equal or not. Yeah. Usually with these, with the discontinuities, it's going to be, don't put the equal in. Right so it's Yeah, cos you haven't got a value, to equal it to. X less than minus three but not equal to it. Yes. Yeah? And then in this range, X will be greater than minus three but less than four. Mm. Not equal to, and again, the last bit, greater than four up to infin greater than four you don't say greater than four, less than infinity. Greater than four. Erm that would be okay. It was just, I wondered if, so if I get something along this line, I mean I can cope with something like this. I think. Well I, I think this two things about it. One it's it's the basis of, of maths. Mm. It's also the, the way to understand it, drawing pictures. Yes. Right? It's much bet better than thousands of words and equations and everything else, get a picture, see how it's behaving. Tt but everything we do is based on this, based on functions. Mm. All your electronic theory and everything else, they're all functions. Sine functions all sorts of Right? Exponential fun they're all functions. Mm. So it's a good idea to know what a function is Yeah. before you start doing it. And most people spend years playing with functions before they find out what one is . tell you what most of them do. Yeah. And they think that they're all continuous,. And that's when you really start getting problems and they start treating something as a continuous function, and it's not. Or treating one-one function and trying to find the inverse, and it's not. weird answers and erm I mean, it can have very serious consequences and you find you're working on a little discontinuity. Yes. And . Mm. It does a does affect other relationships. So how would you sum up a function? A function? Mm. It's a mapping. And how would you sum up a mapping? A mapping is a very very vague concept that just says, there are two sets, okay? Mm. Erm you could s you could have two empty sets, but that's a bit weird. talking about nothings again. Nothing nothing mapping to nothing. Erm at least one element in each set. Mm. And the simplest way of summing it up, is that you if you can join a line from one to the other. Which represents a relationship. So a relationship exists between an element of one set and an element of the other way of the other set. And there is a way of describing how to get there. Right. You could have erm a function erm everyone, let's assume everyone in the world has a name. Mhm. some don't but let's assume everyone has a name. And you map to the first letter of your last name, say. Mm. And you go to the, the dole office and they have all the alphabet out there, and you, you go for the letter which is the first letter of your last name. Erm Mhm. that's a function. So it's a mapping definitely. Cos it's you and It's telling you how to get from your set, which is the first set we're talking about, which is your name, to the second set which is which box you go to, in the, in the dole. Right. Okay? So that's a mapping. It tells you precisely how to get there. It gives you enough information, for you to know where you finish. Yeah. Which, which element of the other set, you're tied up with. Mm. Okay? Mm. So It's a relationship between one set A relationship. and another set. Right. So you could have a relationship between parents and children. Say erm everyone has two parents. more or less safe on that. Everyone,everyone has two parent and erm so a relationship exists, a mapping exists. Mm. You map to say your father. Okay?to his father. chains of mappings. Erm so a child, every child in the world sort of, maps to his father. That's a mapping. . What Mm. sort of mapping is that? Well it'll be one-to-one, but I would have looked at that as many-to- one, because, one child has come from more than one parent. Well hang on let's erm, yeah. Here's a set, we'll make it a very small set so we can see what's happening. Yeah. And it's only got one father in it. Right. And we've got children. . There's a few. Right. Each element in this set maps to its father. Okay? Mm. And what's the inverse mapping? Well you'd have to restrict it. It's okay as a mapping. Each father maps to many children. But if we want it as a function, right, I give you this person's name is Sophie say, and she maps to her father. And now all we've got, all you've got to start from is Sophie's father. Mm. Sophie. And I say, well whose, whose the child I started out with? Well it's Sophie hasn't it? No actually the one I started off with is Greg. . Yeah? That's not a function. Erm so not a function coming back. It is a function going . One answer . Coming back, lots of possible answers. Mm. Who is the child of this father? Could be one of the twenty three. Yeah. It's a mapping. It's fine. But it's not a function. Right. Now if I Okay. just write in there So that's, that's, I mean you can give a very precise mathematical definitions of what we're talking about. Yeah. But er Russell and Whitehead, don't know if you've seen Principae Mathematica. About this thick, several Mhm. volumes. And most of it is erm whether one and one makes two or not. Right But it's a very, it's a very tight academic mathematical treatment of it. Erm but you don't need it. Cos most people will accept . Yeah okay, got that. And another one makes three. yeah got that, yeah. Got several books on it. Yes. With all sorts of weird theory of sets and mappings and functions and everything else. I know that I, I mean I is just at the moment going through the S A T S course. And that's been another thing that's been worrying me over the weekend. Mm. Because I've had Well the worry's not gonna help. No but I mean, it's something that had to be dealt with, aside junior school and everything else that's applications getting made elsewhere. But erm I've spent sort of twelve months trying to cope with snippets about S A T S. And his previous teacher who was in the second year, is a really good, very conscientious teacher. And is all the children. Yeah. And what's to their benefit. Right. This one however, the union she's in is not the union which is pulling out. And pushing It doesn't make a lot of difference. Erm for a long I've pulled him out of it I pulled him out of it for the simple reason, he is the only one which is, I didn't want to segregate him on his own. Well My opinion from last year, is that they are far too young to actually be put into this Labelled and screened and But it's not just, it's not labelling and screening them it's Most of the, most of the, most of the teachers feel that there is far too much admin work to do with this. There is. A lot of them are having nervous breakdowns or sort of ruining their family life because Mm. of it. Others are saying, a lot of them for the last few years have been saying, this is ridiculous. I mean, if you think of say, the time we've spent talking about functions and mapping. Mm. It's a very important thing. Mm. Erm it would normally be glossed over in about three minutes. Mm. And then they'd go on to Y equals X squared, can you differentiate that? Good, right, well you've done differentiation. Yeah. Now have you integrated that? Good, well you've done integration. Right that's got that bit of the course covered. And when they come to the exam they're, how do you integrate this? Yeah. Erm there's too much in it. So most teachers are tending to ignore the national curriculum, and the tests and everything else, and teach what they've always taught. The basic stuff that they know they need, to go to the next stage. Because if they don't understand that, there's no point going on to the next stage. Cos you're piling more and more confusion. You see I don't think So teachers I don't think are going to They, they think now that they've got a feeling that this might be taken out, all these testing schemes and stuff because I said to them, While their argument is that while she's doing these SAT schemes, and she's following this, she's all worked up, Yeah. she's not teaching , Yeah. she's all worked up, she's all nervous because she's, she's trying to get through them and Michael is going er further and further away from his maths. Because she's trying to push m multiplication in, that doesn't come in till the juniors. He's getting it rammed in him now. So if he's getting that rammed in in him now, what's he missing out on? What part of it is missing? I'm having, I'm saying simplistic things to him, what is, ten and seventeen? Erm fift and he's still going back to the fingers. And I think, well this is okay it's acceptable Yeah. but he's losing the concept of it and the understanding because Well it's getting shoved in. Yeah. Now Just get him he needs to know, erm numbers that add up to ten. Mm. Right? Numbers that add up to twenty is a bonus. Which will help him. But numbers that add up to ten,. And a cut down multiplication table, where he just learns about half of them. Well I've tried to explain to him, I've actually sat down and said, You have got, and I've done it in a way of, of sets. T trying to simplify multiplication because that I remember starting multiplication, Yeah. and I remember going through parrot fashion with everybody else. Two times two is four, two times three is six. Now that didn't benefit me at all. Because come somebody saying, and just giving me them, I had to go through them all . And I think that's no good. five million people . Well yeah, because you're having I mean, it's like nines. Yeah. It's simple at nine,twenty you know, it goes down, it's got a particular pattern. Yeah. So they're easier. Yeah. So if you can relate to something that's over five, you know approximately where it's gonna be. Yeah. Without being actually accurate. But you can determine quicker, the things between them. And I think, the way they're doing it now I don't know how she's teaching them, I know she's distraught. Because she's got the two and as she said to me, it doesn't matter in the junior school, he will take a teacher's assessment or a report with him anyway. So why put him under the pressure, she sa cos I said, I want to know what the long-term effect of me taking him out of this is, because, effectively I'm taking him out of something of the system, knowing, he's going to miss that. Mm. So I'm concerned, what effect am I gonna have on his future? And she's, well the effect that you're gonna put on him, is probably better than what the, the others that are sitting the S A T S course. At some time, you'll have to come back into some sort of a system like G C S Es if, if they're, I mean they might be changed, but there'll be something like He's only aged eleven, he's only got four years before he has to have something assessed anyway. And to me, they cannot get an overall assessment of a child, sitting so many tests. Yeah. They get confused the minute you say to them, there's a test. ooh. Yeah. And they go into a panic. That's no good, because then the true worth of the child is not coming out, and at that age I mean, what had started it was last year I I didn't want him to do it. Because I thought, you know, at seven they're too young, they're still babies, they're not you know, they c the they make decisions, yeah, but they're still learning so much that you, they can't trust a decision that they make there and then. Now No but the big thing is that they only learn . Yeah. er anything that's work, they've got built in resistance. Erm I, yeah. I mean, Michael is extremely lazy anyway. The best way to do it is to get some get some coins or pebbles or something, and play, yourself Mm. till he comes over and wants to know what you're doing. And it's a Mm. game. Mm. Erm you have to put them into use erm twelve to start with. Yeah. And see what patterns you then make. Mm. Yeah? Twelve ones, one twelve, Mm. two lots of six in. And you can look at it one way, and say, oh I've got, I've got two rows here with six in, and space them out a bit so, or give him that so he's got sort of, two rows with six in, and you say, oh from where you're looking at it, it's six rows with two in. Come round, have a look at it, come this way. Oh yeah. Well how many have we got? Well it's still the same, whichever way you look at it. And let him find out three by four same as four by three. Factors of twelve are useful anyway. Yeah. Erm there's a tendency not to bother with multiplication tables too much, because you do everything on your calculator. And that's fine, until it comes to . Yes. And you can say, what's a third plus a quarter? Now if you get a kid who knows that three fours are twelve, there's no problem, but if they don't Well this is where Michael is a he would rather, I mean when I say to him can I just do some work on you calc I say, no, cos you are not doing any work, the calculator's doing the work. Doing the work. Mm. I s a cos I bought him a calculator but it was primarily for Well you can checking you can give him his tables written out Mm. and or a calculator, and ask him, er not to recite tables, but ask him, five ones. Mm. Erm and sort of keep asking things like three fours and four threes and five tens and . So he wor it's, it's very difficult to keep your mouth shut and let him realize Yeah well what the answer is. I mean but when he, when they do discover it, when he does discover it for himself, he thinks, hey, I can do this and I invented this myself. Hey I can do it. I mean I know through the summer holidays that I've really got to get to work with him on his maths, likewise I know I've got a lot of work to do myself for Well that's gonna August. be your big problem I think. Concentrating on your own work. It's time. Erm Unfortunately, he's in the position whereby, although I have got my work yet the problem I face is not just now, it's come September, he is in a new school, he's going to have new people, there's new teachers, there's new rules, there's new policies. Yeah. And it's a lot further away than this one. Yeah, well the easy way for them to assess him is have a look at his tests, and if he hasn't done any, then they'll just assess him on what he can do. Mm. Can you do additions, He can do addition and he can do take-aways, and he's pretty, he's not so bad with them but I think what it is, is basically they're cramming them now. the ones who are, who have seen it all before, and done it from last year, because they had to split a smaller section of them up into the first year. So they've done it. Yeah. They did it last year. So they're pretty confident. Whereas these Yeah. These coming up now are not confident and I know by, okay the girl is particularly bright, Mm. but her and Michael are both being pretty equal to one another, for some time. Yeah. I don't think that by any standard that Michael is needs sort of, a lot of work, with his work. He is quick, he is intelligent The main thing is interested and motivated. That's with him, it's motivation. He is, if he can get you to do it for him, then it's done. Yeah. And he is If you get him to do erm addition and multiplication, let him use the calculator, let him Right. have an addition table, made out. And h let him realize that he's remembering these, and it's easier than looking it up every time. It's great fun using a calculator when it's a new toy but when you've got to use it every time you need to work something out, Yeah. you start to think, oh three add one, next one up. Yeah. Erm give him that on a calculator, some things add one, I mean all the time, and eventually, I'm not using that, and he'll just start giving you the answers, and when he does start giving the answers, keep on, let him get a lot right. Mhm. Because he's got this new system, he wants to use it a bit. Erm so you probably think, oh he's got it now,you've done two or three of them, let him do about ten of them, what's six add one? . What's erm what's ten add one then? Right. We do have a terrible problem for some reason, when you get to the end of a number, any number block, whether twenty, thirty, forty, and you get there was a big block there. Well yeah. Because there is a, there is a big block there, there's a big change, Yeah weird numbers to another number, and that he, he used to get really stuck on ninety plus ten or ninety nine plus one. Do it with money, get erm about a pounds worth of pennies, Mm. and ten Ps and pound coins. Mm. And erm let him, let him add five pence and seven pence. Mm. And say, well what's that?all these pennies. Mm. Right that's ten and two. What's twenty three and erm eighteen? Mm. Right I'm not, not having those pennies, change that for a ten. Mm. And I'm sure he'll be able to do that. And then he will just apply that to numbers. Yeah. He does actually I, I've tried doing it with him on paper, Mm. when he was, he brought work home. And he cut it in ten blocks. Mm. Now he didn't actually to begin with, he didn't pick up the concept of counting in tens. Well he will if you, if you, you, he, he will if he uses money. He, he does now. Yeah a he, he does now, he understands Yeah. the ten, and two units are Yeah. And show him subtraction by counting off, erm you buy something for thirty seven P, and he gives fifty pence. Mm. So that's thirty seven P, thirty eight, thirty nine, Mm. forty, and ten. Yeah. It's a lot easier than subtraction, and it gets the answer. Erm Yeah. Well it's something they can actually relate It gets them to because they It's got to be something real. You can't talk to him about erm division by zero being infinity. No. He won't buy that. Neither will I. So it's got to be something you can relate to, and once the model gets too far removed from reality, he'll switch off. Yeah. So it's got to be you know they Because they can't see , it doesn't apply to them But better get back to this. Right. Erm so you're okay on mappings and functions. Yes. And your drawing That's what I was in . Okay? So you've got a function, you've got some expression that you want, and they will usually say, sketch in a function. Mm. So you can probably assume it is a function, but you should check what sort of function it is. Erm watch out for the ones. Then dis discontinuity, does the function exist for a whole range? Yeah. If not, where does it stop . Mm. Okay? Now the next thing is,is where which values of X would make Y Well first of all, the easy thing is, what happens to Y when X is zero? Okay? Yeah. What's F of zero? Er do you want me to? Yeah. What is F of zero? What happens to Y When X equals zero? And then the next bit which is sort of solving the equation, is what values of X would make Y equal to zero?when when is F of X equal to zero? Mm. And the next thing that comes in is what you asked about, where are these points in inflection and these turning points? Have a look at . Erm what's differentiation all about? What's differentiation all about? Why, why is everyone rushing off doing it all the time? Mm. What is it? It's a function of a function. Mm. I could draw you a picture of that. I could draw you a picture of that . Yeah. Here's, here's a set one, two, here's a set of function here. And Two of these map to one of those. So that looks like a function of a function. This mapping is a function. Is that what you mean? No. So t try to think of it as something a bit more real. Erm there's a curve. We want to find the gradient of the curve Mm. at that point. Happy with what gradient is? gradient is a slope. Yeah. That distance and that distance, use those as a ratio, tan of that angle. Yeah. Right. And it tells us whether the curves . So an interesting point is where the gradient does this. Right or the other shapes we've been talking about. Right? Yeah. Now there's an easy way to find that out without plotting every point. Mhm. Erm cos if we differentiate it gives us the gradient at any point. Mm. Right you can only differentiate a continuous function. Yeah. Well the another of function, a differentiable function. Mm. Now if it's not, sometimes there are some continuous ones that Isn't it the velocity? Differentiation the velocity of Yeah. That's a practical Yeah. a practical example of it. In the sort of pure maths, you can differentiate a function, your functions are split into two types, differentiable and non-differentiable, we'll just concentrate on the differentiable one. Er generally if you try and differentiate a function which isn't continuous, Mm. the only way to do it is to split it into two continuous bits. And do Mm. each bit at a time. Mm. Okay? So if we've got something like Y equals X plus one times X minus two times X plus three. Mhm. Right. And someone said, draw a sketch of that. Mm. Okay? What's it gonna look like roughly? Well it's going to be something like that cos it's Yeah so it's Cubic. it's cubic. What happens when X is minus infinity, this weird number that disobeys all the rules? When X is extremely negative? Y i is negative. Yes but what's this come to?. Are they talking about such a large number. Right, we're talking about such a, all we got to look T I T the sine of X, and it's plus times plus times plus, so it's . Mm. Okay? And so we're, it looks like X cubed. Right. Yeah. Minus infinity, minus X cubed, and at plus infinity, Er cubed Plus X cubed. Zero? X is zero, do you think we'd get No. You think some number here. So there's some points right away? Yeah. Erm then what are the values of, so we've done what is Y when X is nought? minus six. Right so the next thing we'll do is Is these. Yes. Which values of X would make Y equal nought? Minus one. Okay so minus one. So we've got quite a, we know from this, that it's roughly er cubic. We know now where it cuts the axes. We know roughly what its shape is. The only other thing we want to find out, so we know it looks something like this. Yeah. the axes are somewhere depending on these. Now the other t the important points of this are, don't forget these bits are very important. Mm. Tend to get left out. People tend to do, well we'll do it from minus well we'll do it from minus ten to plus ten there. That's a picture of it. It isn't, it's just a very tiny part of that function. Yeah. Don't forget the outside limits. Where does this happen, because now that's very important. Mm. Very interesting bit. Where it's going up and then it levels out and it comes down. It's going down, it levels out and starts going up again. Right. Right. Local minimum and local maximum. Local maximum. That's not the highest value it ever takes, cos all these are much higher. Yeah but that's Yeah. just going And that's, all of these are much lower. So it's a local maximum and a local minimum. In, in this range . Yeah. So how do you find those points? I don't know. I can't remember. Is it differentiation? It is differentiation. So could you differentiate that? So if someone said, sketch that? You'd need to differentiate this to find isn't that one? Well now what are you going to do? How are you trying to differentiate it? I don't know . So you're just doing one Er you've got to work these out. Right so you have to expand it. Okay. So what's this gonna come to, the first two brackets? Well it's X squared, and it's And don't be afraid to put those on when you're doing this. I usually do actually. Right. Yeah. I usually do because I'm not, he does a, a quick method which is sort of and I, I don't go to that because it's too mu Hopeless. It's no, it's no, it's no, it is much too easy to make a mistake. With a little bit of extra time you can Yeah. get it right. So that's Yeah. gonna be a minus two . So. Okay. Yeah. Minus two X and then? Er that's just gonna be minus two because I do it Oh I see. Right. like that, like that, and like that and like that. Okay. So your next one is? Well i there is a minus two X, then there's a plus one X. Right and er now it's minus two. Okay. Right. So X squared X squared minus one X minus two. X plus three. Yeah. switch it about, like we can with three times four and four times three, cos these are only numbers. Yeah. That might be seven, this might be three. Mm. whatever it is, it's a number. Okay? So you can do the same on that. So if you do the same on that one, and then differentiate it. Now I'm getting confused now. Okay. So a sys a system. minus X squared minus two X. Then we do this way, three X squared Mm. minus three X. And add them up. Yeah. And that's Y equals Right and now I can differentiate that. Right. Good No that has a . And that . Right okay? So where does these maximum,maximum and minimum come in? Well this i wh what does D Y by D X mean? Well that's, it's the velocity of something Okay. If we were if we were doing velocity time graphs and things. But this is just a some That's the gradient. That's the gradient. Ah. Right. And what are we looking for there and there? We're looking for the local minimum and the local maximum. Right and what happens to the gradient at that point and at that point? They stop. They stop. It takes a special value. Yeah it changes Yeah. from here, it's getting closer and closer to a certain value, it reaches that value, and then it changes and then it gets to the same value again here. Right, what is the value of a, of a gradient that's absolutely flat, absolutely level? Not going uphill or down, it's just level? Zero. Right. So you put this to zero. Right. So you're looking for, values of X, that will make the gradient zero. And that's what the gradient is for any X along here. So what would you do now? Right, so we've got three X min plus four X zero. Yeah, erm don't just suddenly come out with it like that. No. When the gradient equals zero. Right. Then that equals zero. Right. So what values of X would make that zero? Erm Well plus five would it? Are you looking for each particular turn, or are you looking for everything . Well which wh what gives you the value of the gradient? Erm , This D D Y by D X equals that. So if I said, X is three, how would you work out what the gradient was? What's the gradient, at the point where X is equal to three? Erm How do you work it out? This three times three squared, plus four times three, minus five, that would give you the gradient,three. Mm. Yeah. So this whole expression, gives you the gradient. You just put X into it Mm. and it tells you what the gradient is. Now we want the gradient to be nought. So you've got to find some value of X that you put into there, and there, to make the whole expression equal to zero. Nought. But look, that'll make it minus five. Yes. Is there any quick way of doing this or is it just just trial by error? Well how would you no forget all about differentiation now, if I gave you something like that, three X squared plus four X minus five equals zero. which you've got there, Yeah. and I said, solve that equation. What would you do? It's a quadratic. Right so what would you do? Erm It doesn't look as if it'll factorize easily. No it doesn't. And even, even if it does, it's often quicker not to bother trying to factorize it, because, especially in an exam, if you could with Mr but what I thought I'd do today is see how much you've remembered of one or two of the basic topics. So topic I want to start off today with is iron and steel. Who can remember what four things which four things go into a blast furnace? Let's have one of them from somebody. Copper. Copper. We're trying to make iron and steel Edwin. Oh. Oh right yes, I knew that. You knew that. Good. Okay. So what four things? There's four things that go into a blast furnace. Come on you've done this. Zinc. N not zinc if we're trying to make iron . Iron. Should be iron or steel. Iron what? Ore. Iron ore. Right. Ha hallelujah, we're getting somewhere. Right iron ore. most of the iron ore is used ir in the form of iron what? Somebody said it actually. Oxide. Oxide, right. And they're iron oxides. Right there are two iron oxides commonly used in the blast furnace, one of which is named because of its colour Excuse me a moment. Er right as I was saying there's two iron oxides one named because of its colour and the other one named because of its properties. Anybody remember what they are? Simon. . No I think invoking the deity is not going to help you here. I'll give you a further clue. One of them is because of its blood red colour. . What's Yes. What's the name of the department in a hospital that deals with blood? The blood bank. The blood bank. No. No. . . That's where they store it not where they er play about with it. Transfusions Begins with H. H. Hospital. Hospital blood bank . . H A E. Hae Mm. A E A A E . A E . Haematology. Haematite. Haematite. Haematology is the department that deals with blood and the red colouring in the blood is haemoglobin. Edwin. Sir is it erm are they the people who tell you what erm group your blood is? Yes, basically. And the way they do that is they take a sample of your blood and mix it with er agents taking taken from the blood of other people. Ugh. So for example when I've given a pint of blood instead of giving it into a plastic bag with sodium citrate to stop it clotting I've actually given into a plain glass bottle and when I asked what this for the erm transfusion nurse said that they're going to let the red cells all clot together at the bottom and use the serum that was left for blood grouping purposes which of course is very important. So when they're actually blood grouping they're using human blood serum to er test which group you belong to. So haematology because of haemoglobin the red colouring of the erm red cells that carry the oxygen around the body and haemoglobin contains iron which is why when people are short of iron they suffer from anaemia because they've got en not enough of this red colouring in their blood cells to carry the oxygen around the body. Haematite is F E 2 0 3. Iron three oxide. iron three oxide. The other one I n said named because of its property is called magnetite. Okay? So what's the property of magnetite that makes it interesting? It's magnetic. Right. . And it's believed that magnetite in its er one of its forms lodestone was er the earliest form of compass. You had this lump of rock that you dangled from a thread and people discovered that it always pointed in the same direction, so if you were on board, a ship for the first time people were able to travel in a ship without having to hug a coast all the way across or navigate to where they could see. Er the I know this is basically not iron and steel but if you take the Mediterranean er very loosely . That's Italy and er the home of the Mafia, there's Greece and Turkey and so on and you come back round again, there's the Straits of Gibraltar. In the early days of er navigation within the Mediterranean people used to actually have to navigate by going all the way round the coast. . So if you wanted to go from there to there you went all round that way. The reason being that you had to navigate where you could see. And in the Bible it's recorded that for example there are some cases where there was a big storm and they lost sight of land and all the sailors er promptly panicked because once they'd lost sight of land they hadn't got a clue where they were. But with a lodestone compass which was er magnetic iron oxide hung up on the ship, you could actually then work out that you go straight across from there to there no problems. And it then made possible going by the shortest route. So magnetite is a very important iron oxide. Where do we get our iron ore from these days? . Well you're telling me other countries. In other words we import it. Why do we import it? Cheaper. It's cheaper, yes. And why is it cheaper? What's happened to the iron ore in Britain? . It's gone rusty . Finished. It's gone rusty. No. Er it's Yeah. finished. It's finished. Yes . It's run out. Right. The two main areas that I'm thinking of are in Northamptonshire where the iron ore works there have been completely exhausted and the other is Consett in County Durham. And if you go to Consett from Nottingham,you ? Consett. C erm C O N S E double T I think it is. . If you go to Consett in County Durham you come along the road and there's the town and what was left of the old steel works because the steel works was built there because of its easy access to the iron ore deposits. And you come over this hill and suddenly there's nothing on the other side except a huge hole in the ground, and the road goes along almost a cliff edge the side of this erm hole which is this worked out iron ore quarry. It completely all the iron ore deposits there er have gone. So we import our iron ore from other countries. For example Australia produces quite a lot, Sweden produces a lot, and it's imported into this country in bulk ore carriers. So we've got iron ore obviously from which we get the iron. Three other things to go into the blast furnace? Me? Anybody. Iron ore is one. What's the fuel? Erm . Right, begins with that letter, yes. . coal? coke. No it's con Coke? Coke. Right. Obviously . coal is converted into coke. . . No it's not cocaine. Oh. All right then. You're confusing the slang for cocaine with coke. Coke in the terms in which we're talking about it is Er it's not that soft drink either. It's actually a black porous substance made by heating coal in the absence of air, and consists of virtually pure carbon. The er coke is produced from the coal and the coal gas that's driven off is then used for heating and powering things elsewhere in the steel works. So we have two things, we've got iron ore, coke. Now for that coke to burn in this furnace what must we add? Heat? . Heat, yes. I'll give you a clue. It's the sort of thing you might collect from the House of Commons particularly during a er big debate. Producing lots of . . Possibly but er that's . not quite what I'm thinking of. Politicians are renowned for producing? Hot air. Hot air, right. . . Hot air. Air obviously makes it burn. Hot air means that it's burned better. And the hot air is injected near the bottom of the furnace where the temperature is about fifteen hundred degrees celsius, Whoa! which is just a little bit warm. If you injected cold air you'd actually chill the furnace down a bit. The reason that you use hot air is to keep that combustion going at a good temperature. And finally coming from Derbyshire from up the road in Buxton, the biggest quarry and the purest in Europe. Spring water. No. . Yeah but there is There is Derbyshire spring water from Buxton yes. . . O Er excuse me,we got the answer right? Spring water in a blast furnace? Anyway carry on. . Yes, right. So what is mined in large quantities in Derbyshire? You saw a video about it. Limestone. Limestone, thank you. Now limestone has a very important function in the blast furnace. What is that? What does it make? Erm lime water? . . . Four-letter word, . used in a er derogatory sense of certain people. Limestone is used to make? Come on, think. Burn. Burn. Burn. Make it burn? Slag! Slag! . Thank you. Anybody would think you haven't done this. Come on. . Right. . So . . The impurity in iron ore is about one third sand,which is silicon oxide. Now if you have silicon in your steel it becomes very brittle and useless. For example if you think of the Vauxhall Cavalier advert where they're crashing these Cavaliers all over the place, if you had a silicone er a silicon-based steel instead of crumpling nicely the steel would actually crack and break. So basically you have to remove this silicon which was in this impurity. To do that you need to add limestone which then converts into er calcium oxide in the heat of the blast furnace and then reacts with the sand to form slag. The equations are as follows. What's the formula for er limestone? Simon. Come on. . I don't feel special no more. . don't feel special any more Edwin, let's at least Oh. get English right. Even if chewing in class is not allowed in a science lab. Calcium oxide heated in the blast furnace turns very rapidly to calcium oxide plus carbon dioxide. . Which makes erm Now C O three. It's easy. . Calcium silicate. Now calcium silicate is the slag. What happens in the blast furnace is that the slag is lighter than the molten iron and it collects on top of the molten iron and by some means that I s scoop off. But they don't actually scoop it out off from the blast furnace, they drill a hole in the side where they've plugged it with a lump of clay. Cos they have to keep the blast furnace going don't they. That's right. Yeah. I'm coming to that, good, but that is a very important point. The tapping from the furnace is done by means of tap holes in the side of the furnace and these are plugged with clay and what happens is one of the workers has a lump of clay on the end of a long metal rod. He then pushes this clay into the hole and the heat of the furnace means that the clay bakes almost instantaneously blocks the hole and then the furnace can go o carry on working. And the slag is normally tapped off first. They then run it into pits, break it up, and use it for road stone or alternatively, the molten slag is run over water-cooled rollers where it forms little tiny pellets with a high air content which are used for making insulation blocks. But the slag making is an important part of the process. By the way interestingly enough this is a sort of acid plus base type reaction, where you've got calcium oxide which is a basic oxide,silicon dioxide which is an acidic oxide, and the salt that it makes is calcium silicate. Let's have a look at the reactions. The most common ore used in the blast furnace is haematite,so I'm going to restrict my equations to dealing with haematite. Because that's the one you may be asked in your exam. F E two O three. Haematite . Haem Haematite. Blood-red colour. If you rub it in your fingers, you'll find that your fingers are actually stained red by the haematite dust, and it looks just as if you've cut yourself. Now there are two ways in which iron oxide can be reduced to iron and they depend exactly where you are in the blast furnace. The first one is by reacting directly with carbon. When you get iron and carbon monoxide. That is a high-temperature reaction and tends to happen near the bottom of the furnace. Nearer the t higher up our reducing agent is carbon monoxide which is formed by partial burning of the coke, and that forms iron again and carbon dioxide. Now the carbon dioxide formed can react with more carbon to form car more carbon monoxide. So there's a whole a series of complicated equations that take place at different layers in the furnace and different temperatures, but the end product of of all of these is basically to produce the iron, slag and carbon dioxide, carbon monoxide and nitrogen. So coming off the top of the furnace we have a mixture of nitrogen, quite a lot of that, carbon monoxide and a bit of carbon dioxide. Now what do you know about carbon monoxide? What happens if you react carbon monoxide with oxygen and ignite it? . It burns. Yes. Have you ever looked at a coke fire?the coke fire has been banked up with only a limited supply of air. What colour are the flames? . Blue. Yes. You've seen it, good. They're blue flames. Now the blue flames are What's happening is this, there's two reactions taking place in that coke fire. Down in the heart of the coke the limited supply of air is reacting with the carbon to form carbon monoxide. You shut the damper doors on the bottom of fire. This carbon monoxide comes up through the coke and then comes in contact with air at the top of the fire and then burns to give you carbon dioxide. The carbon monoxide burns with a blue flame. So there is a fuel. It's called blast furnace gas. Blast furnace gas. Which is harmful. It is. Would be if you discharged it into the environment, because of course, carbon monoxide is what? Poisonous. Yeah. Come on to the poisonous nature of carbon monoxide in a minute. So carbon monoxide is poisonous. So they don't discharge it, and since it's a fuel anyway they don't want to waste fuel, they use the heat generated from burning this fuel to heat the incoming blast of air. They do that in brick s stoves called er Cooper stoves. They've got effectively three of those. Two of those are being heated by burning blast furnace gas and the third one has the cold air blown through it and the brickwork inside gives up the heat to the er cold air, warms the air and then that's blown into the blast furnace. Blast furnace gas is what is called a low-grade fuel. Why is it a low-grade fuel? Compared with so many things. Simon? Er You looked like you were going to try and answer. I w Well actually I wasn't but I'll have a go. Cos it cos it's cheap to make? No. No. Low-grade fuel . use it? No. What are we after when we burn a fuel? Lots and lots of? Heat. Heat. So a high-grade fuel will give us Er plenty of heat. Right. And a low-grade fuel? . Why doesn't that give us a lot of heat? It doesn't react very well. Right. What doesn't react very well out of that lot? Er carbon . Carbon. Well look. Oxygen. You've got three things in blast furnace gas. Nitrogen, carbon monoxide and carbon dioxide. Which one burns? Nitrogen. Carbon monoxide. The carbon monoxide. What about the nitrogen and the carbon dioxide? Do they burn? No. No. So th most of that doesn't burn. So out of a large quantity of fuel this blast furnace gas, only a little bit will actually burn to give you heat. But there's still enough to make it worth their while doing it. Talking about carbon monoxide. Carbon monoxide poisoning. How can you deliberately give yourself carbon monoxide poisoning to a mild degree? Get in a car and put . . That that tends to be a little bit permanent. I was thinking of a slightly less permanent way and one which the Chancellor's made slightly more expensive. Erm Cigarettes. Cigarettes. Cigarettes. That's right. Oh yes of course. Okay Ashley. Cigarettes. The average smoker at any one time has approximately ten percent of their blood out of action with carbon monoxide poisoning. . That's why a blood donor if they've given a pint of blood they're told not to smoke afterwards if they're a smoker. The reason being that having given up ten percent of their blood roughly, er in the blood donation if they then continue to erm smoke afterwards, they they'll knock another ten percent of what's left out. They may be dropping their oxygen carrying capacity of their blood to a level at which they pass out. So er that's how people deliberately give themselves carbon monoxide poisoning although perhaps without realizing it. Simon. Sir right, you know if you go for a blood transfusion and you're a smoker, how do you know that when you have the transfusion you won't get the ten percent of the blood that's not working properly? What it is, is that it would be averaged out over the blood as a whole. And just bear in mind that if you're having a blood transfusion, you could actually be having having the blood of a smoker. Other things are if the erm person giving Yeah but wouldn't that get you hooked on smoking? It wouldn't be enough to get you hooked, no. But bear in mind that if the person What if there were plenty of smokers? If there were? Plenty of smokers. It still wouldn't be enough er nicotine to get you addicted to cigarettes. The addiction takes quite a time to develop. The erm other side of the coin is if the blood donor has had a liquid lunch And what do I mean by liquid Boozing . lunch Fiona ? . Boozing. Right. If they've been boozing, you could end up with erm enough blood to . make you quite er high. Ooh. Yeah you you . . If you go for a pint at dinnertime you'd Yeah you're driving and you Can't you get done for drink driving? Yeah. . If you needed a blood transfusion er you're not likely to be driving a car straight afterwards. . You tend to be rather poorly which is why they've given you the blood transfusion. But they are extremely careful. The only things that they don't seem to worry too much about your having taken beforehand are alcohol and smoking, cigarettes. If you've got carbon monoxide poisoning one of the problems is that your blood can't carry the oxygen because the red blood cells are being put out of action by the carbon monoxide. You form carbonyl haemoglobin which er doesn't carry oxygen. How do you treat somebody who's er had carbon monoxide poisoning? Give them plenty of oxygen. Right. Now the problem is with this that the blood as is it won't normally take it up. So what can be done if you live near er a naval town or North sea support town to actually get that oxygen into the bloodstream? Oh erm ask them if you can sit in one of those er machines that erm get you out of the bends. Right. Absolutely right. Yes. Er the h it's called hyperbaric oxygen. Basically what they do is they stick you in one of these divers' decompression chambers, Oh yeah . flood it with oxygen, and you're putting so much oxygen in that the normal mechanism of the oxygen combining with the haemoglobin in the red blood cells is bypassed and the oxygen under high pressure will actually dissolve straight into the bloodstream. That's how you get the bends because the oxygen nitrogen have dissolved directly into the blood. So that it's actually the blood itself carrying the oxygen round in solution. And you keep the person in that condition long enough for the damaged red cells to be replaced. The only problem is if you don't happen to live near a port which has one of these hyperbaric er diving chambers then you've problems that erm just putting a mask over the person and giving them oxygen that way is normally isn't enough. It may actually paralyse the person and put them on erm a life-support machine. footballers sort of when footballers get injuries they go in them to get fit quicker.. You're right Duncan. Do you know why? No. Well,instead of just saying no, how about taking it through and working it out? When you're growing new muscle or replacing tissue what is needed? Apart from the food to supply the proteins to make that muscle, what else? What do you need all the time? Oxygen. Oxygen, right. Some of that oxygen's used in the processes, together with the proteins to repair damages tissue. So if you increase the amount of oxygen present, what happens then? The tissue will heal quicker. The tissue will heal up quicker. And that's the way it works. Another advantage is, and this is another case for being put in one of these hyperbaric oxygen chambers, if you've got erm an anaerobic infection. Now, anaerobic Excuse me. . Think of Jane Fonda and aerobics and I'll come back to you. Can you be quiet please? I can't hear on the phone. Thank you. .Right folks. Sorry about that. Happened yet again. Erm that was er Steve from the Youth Centre because we've just er told him how much it's going to cost him to use the school premises next year, and he's thrown a dickey fit. Who? Good. The youth leader. Oh. Erm because the problem is the school's s now supposed to be making economic charges er which involves caretaker's fees plus heating costs and everything. Erm and it comes to quite a high figure and he's not happy. . Sir school trips? . Yeah. At the moment at the moment I don't know because er I had er one or two problems with organizing that. But I will leave that with me and I'll come back to you. Sir could you do something because ages ago you promised to do a chip-pan fire for us. Yeah! Yeah Sir I And you still haven't done one . Every time you've done I haven't forgotten the chip-pan fire. Every time you've done the chip-pan fire I've always missed out. . Yeah. Yes. I will er demonstrate it again. That is the the effects on the ceiling are the effects of the last one. I'm going to be doing one or two more over the next erm few weeks or so. I will do it for you. Because then when it's been er finished I'm going to repaint the ceiling to cover up the . Well, I'm s sure if you wanted to I could give you the paint and you can do it for me. . You'll notice it doesn't. It doesn't. . If you notice the smoke and flames reached somewhere nearly to Duncan's head. Last time. . Which was quite effective. Back to the blast furnace . . We've got our four elements going in, four main components. We've got coke, iron ore, limestone and hot air. Hot air is blown in to the furnace. We've got the blast furnace gas and dust coming off the top, and the dust's removed and the blast furnace gas is used as a fuel. Coming out at the bottom, comes out what? At the bottom? Ash, Sir. No. Iron? Iron. Right. Molten iron. Which is very hot indeed. Yeah. Which is why in the iron and steelmaking trade they refer to the molten iron as hot metal. If you were to let that iron cool, what form of iron would you actually have? Is it steel? No. It's not steel yet, we've got to convert it into steel. What's that iron . Solid iron. Begins with C. . Four-letter word. Cast iron. Cast iron. . Good, right. Okay. says it's cast iron. Now cast iron, if you are in the metal workshops and you are hitting something with a hammer and you hit the vice instead, Mr will throw a scranny at you. Why? snap and break. Because it will snap and break, yes. Cast iron is very brittle. Which is one of the reasons, by the way, why another thing you will get murdered for in the er workshops is taking two hammers and hitting the heads against each other, because they're hardened and y they may well shatter quite explosively if you do that. Why would you wanna do that? Pupils do all sorts of peculiar things. . So cast iron is brittle. So what is cast iron used for? Making vices? Yes. Because . Well not d er it's a special form of steel for hammers. But in a vice, what are you putting that cast iron under? Are you stretching it or squashing it? Squashing. Squashing. So cast iron is extremely good under compression. If you stretch it it cracks very easily. So cast iron res resists crushing better than steel does. Cast iron is an alloy. That's a mixture of two elements. Normally alloys are mixtures of two metals. But in this case, for cast iron, it's a metal and a non-metal. Which is the metal, first of all? For cast iron, pretty obvious. . Iron. Right. And what have we put lots of in the blast furnace, all that black stuff? Slag. Coke. Coke. The Coke. Right. Which is carbon. So cast iron is approximately four percent carbon. It's an alloy of iron and carbon. That makes It's the carbon that makes it brittle. And during the steelmaking process the excess carbon is burnt off by injecting what gas into the molten iron? Carbon monoxide. Much more reactive than carbon monoxide. Carbon er er er . Not carbon anything. Take the last bit. Oxide. . Oxygen. Yes. So beside a steel works you will have an oxygen-making plant because they actually use oxygen by the ton. Simon said something interesting earlier about the s the iron works. You said it runs all the time. Yes. Yeah. . David said then. Iron runs a iron works run all the time. It's a continuous process. How does that compare with steelmaking? . Yeah. Steelmaking is a batch process a bit like making a cake, where you put all the ingredients in together bake the cake, then put another batch of ingredients, bake another cake. With steelmaking they work in er two hundred and fifty tonnes roughly at a time, pour it in the basic oxygen steelmaking furnace, blow oxygen into the steel which takes about twenty minutes, then the steel with one or two other processes is basically ready to be used. But it's a batch process, whereas ironmaking's continuous. Now, cast iron contains four percent carbon. When I had a lock that was sticking what did I blow What powder I did I blow into the lock to make it work better? Baking powder. No. Yeast? Got to tie up with the cast iron. It's black powder Coke. Also Well, coke is Carbon. Carbon. In what form? Beginning with G. Yeah. Yeah. Er diamond is one form. What's the other form? . Oh, gold? Graphite. . Used in pencils. Graphite. Graphite. Good. So graphite is the black form of carbon. Diamond is the other form. And graphite, cos I blew this graphite powder into the lock it acts as a what? Oh a lubricant. Lubricant. Lubricant. Lubricant. So graphite is a dry lubricant. Now why don't you put oil in a conventional lock? It would clog it up. Right. Because the oil would attract dust and the d oil dries up and the leaves the dust deposits sort of caked inside the lock, and it will clog it up. Graphite is a dry lubricant. Cast iron contains a lot of graphite, proportionately. Right? So can you give me a use of cast iron which ha one of the effects of it is that it relies on the occasional lubricating properties of the graphite in the iron? Er ice? . Er clue, it helped me to come to school this morning. Car. Right. Moped. So so what do you make the cylinder block out of? . Cast iron. Why cast iron? Because cast iron's hard. What do you make the piston out of? Cast iron. Oh steel. Steel. No. You want to be light and a good conductor of heat. . A light metal. Aluminium. Aluminium. Right. Your pistons are aluminium because you want a light weight because it going up and down, and if it's very heavy when th the connecting rod wants to pull it back down again it will want to carry on straight out through the top of the cylinder head. So you want a light weight and a good conductor of heat. And you have a hard metal sliding against a soft metal, because that actually produces less wear than two hard metals rubbing together. . Now normally your cylinder is lubricated by what? Oil. Oil. If the oil film breaks down momentarily for a very short period of time that little bit of carbon that four percent carbon in the cast iron will actually stop the aluminium sticking to the cylinder. So the graphite it actually helps to make it self-lubricating. To a certain extent. Now obviously nobody would be daft enough to try running a car without oil,although some of the garages doing their P D I 's, pre-delivery inspections, can cause that sort of problem. The one I was thinking of in fact was a poor lady who bought a Ford Escort from er what was then Garage, it's now in Daybrook. Oh yeah. Oh yeah yeah, I know. Right. Opposite builders merchant . Near the train station. Yeah. . Near the what? Well er you can see the train station from there. Think you mean railway station. Where? Hang on a second. Wait. Let me just finish this off. It was delivered from Ford on a transporter to in Daybrook,run off the transporter, they did the P D I, she went to collect her brand new car and got as far as Kwik-Save in Sherwood. . That's when the engine seized solid because there was no oil in the engine. They forgot to check the oil. . Right, see you sir. Okay. So we're, we're, we're we're all communists, right, we've gotta agree on that. So if anybody's, if anybody's capitalist and we we've gotta construct a land reform document. Now what is it we're trying to do with the land reform document? What's, what's the purpose of it? Improve the wealth of the peasants. Improve of the wealth comrades, comrades. Right what do we want to improve their wealth for? the next meeting in March, with very good reason, it clashes with a conference that needs to attend so we're proposing, with your agreement, that we put it forward a week to the seventeenth of March, is that a problem for anybody? When? Same time, ten thirty. Possibly for me, Could you just let us know? Yes thank you. Right When, when is The seventeenth of March. What's on the twenty second, Harry? It was on the twenty second, we're putting it forward a week, That's not a week, five day week, well, five day week. Okay, Right, Harold, you can start your recorder if you wish now. Apologies for absence? Chairman, apologies from Sue , Mr , and Mr . Who are, as you probably all know, erm, in London, or on their way to London, lobbying, I hope successfully, but I fear probably not,said he, keeping an eye on the tape recorder trying to get more money out of the government in regard to our backing in this, and we wish you well. It's supported by our local M P, so I believe, well it's okay, minutes of the previous meeting which was held on the twelfth of October, and I'll sign them as a true and accurate version. This takes us into item three, this is the provision of service land,er, the updating report, Chairman, I've these past, the contract for the on-site services has now been let by, by the County Council's private ent department, they're actually going in the present time. , that contract is now completed, the infrastructure contract on site itself has been let, and er, we have now resolved all the, the issues that were on that site, and effectively we've already sold two of the plots off that site before . Details of those are on plot two. The Tern Valley business park, Chairman, the er, the management board met to have a look at the site, we're getting some demand for some smaller plots have turned down, and there is the proposal that was considered by the, the management but was turned down, to put in a little round, er, so we could rate some of the plots at the bottom of the site in, to er,mark out the plots rather than pull any plots erm, if the construction of them would be funded from, from selling plots in that area. Recommendations, Chairman, just to note the report, and to ratify the decision of the Tern Valley management body, about the construction of a on that site. Where is in relation to this? Well, if I can check it on the plan, it's, the plan actually shows half the site, there's the central slide way way coming down through the development site, all that occupies, all one side of the slide way. Yes, right Any other questions, accept the report. Item four, a lot of these, I think you'll find, are items which are purely for information. It's important that they keep me abreast of what's happening, paper C. A power to advance, Chairman. All the er, all the units are let, we've had two, we've had notice of two terminations coming up, but we have actually got a waiting list for units so I don't think we'll have any problem in filling those. Interestingly, all, all eighteen units on that site have been full from the day they were created, and that's been a most successful run. we've come, we've had to make at previous meetings, Chairman, about the er, about the fall off we've had in demand for the small units there now. We've actually had a pick up, there's been a sort of renewed interest, er, it's quite significant that over the last month or so, there's been quite an increase in, in people making enquiries about those units. We have actually let four of the units, two have gone to a department of Council for a service they're delivering in the area, er, but actually it's a manufacturing type of operation that they're running there so it's, that, that, you know, is in keeping with the nature of the units, and the other two units have gone elsewhere. I think that's really quite positive, that we see erm, that we see an increase in demand coming about in them areas. , the Alberney units erm, have never been successful since the time they were, they were constructed. The maximum, I think we've ever let at any one time is three of the six units, we're currently down only to one unit there at Alberney. Sandy Lane, we're now erm, we're down to eleven of the eighteen units occupied at Sandy Lane. Right, members will recall from the last meeting,there was an issue of it at Shrewsbury College, because of the transfer of the screw and ribbon factory to the college, or the College's claim to the transfer of the screw and ribbon factory to them, because of the er, the cre the vesting of the College as an in independent body under the Higher Education Act. We've had some discussion with the College to seek to resolve this, and the proposals erm, are set out in paragraph four, three, er, in that it would mean that the College would not take over the ownership of the site, er, and it, but, but they would continue to occupy their part of the site er, effectively rent free from the County Council, but if, at any time, they decided they, the College wanted to move away from the site, it would revert to the County Council, it wouldn't actually become a College asset. I think probably Chairman, it's the best deal that we could get in the circumstances. I think, Chairman, that's still subject to approval by the E A B, erm, which is at the end of the day, the important party that has to be satisfied, so, these are very successful negotiations, but we, we're still awaiting erm, confirmation they've been accepted. By whom? By the Education Assets Board. Who are they? A government body, and if, if, if at the end of the day, there is, there is still disagreement between us and the E A B, er, then there, there is an appeal to the Secretary of State, but erm, we're hoping that the E A B may accept these proposals. Terence, it's just a very small point, Yes, you see he agreed to contribute to a suitable replacement upon terms that we agreed, what happens if terms aren't, can't be agreed? I mean, Who's, who's going to agree the terms? Well, it would be between the County Council and the College, I mean I, I can't envisage the situation that we would actually serve notice on the, on the College to leave the site and therefore trigger that part of the agreement. But the minute, the minute the College simply agreed, at least they've agreed to close for ten million pounds at least if they don't agree, what would happen then? Well we, if, this only happens if we wish them to vacate the site, and what it is is to jump to a suitable Oh no it isn't we intend to redevelop the site And if a suitable replacement for the facilities they've got now, Chair, where, where erm, agreements er, leave things open wherever possible, the courts will interpret them as the parties intended to act reasonably one to the other, and er, if there were a formal agreement and that was then tested it would be a matter for the courts to decide what was reasonable, obviously asking for, what was it you're suggesting, ten million? Would be regarded as unreasonable, there'll be no question of that being enforced, but er, clearly where the thing's left open there, there's some room for manoeuvre in negotiation eventually and settlement if need be before the courts. Okay, we're asked to approve these terms in para four three, is anyone backing it? Okay. Five, inward investment activities to pay the deed. Just the report to, to note, Chairman. Er, Er, just one question er, Chairman, that we have success to report on that, though I can't go into details. Erm, members who are also members of the Business Grants Panel will recall that at the December meeting we agreed to grant to to a company so he may relocate into the area creating twenty seven jobs, and Friday we learnt that relocation's to go ahead to Telford. To Telford, two companies, that the policy's helped. Right, local report? Chairman, Chairman, there's erm, where, where's, can I ask where that funding's coming from? Of course Locating from Telford. The West Midlands Conurbation. From the West Midlands? Erm, on this paper I just wanted to ask you, erm, Simon says it's from the erm, American agency, how many jobs, I, I would really like to know how much we spend, or how much is spent on trying to achieve jobs from American, from companies in America, and erm, how many jobs have been created? I only say this, because it's always been very difficult to get erm, America to take any, any interest at all in developing in England, and , how and I'd wondered if it's still the same situation . With all due respect to have an obsession to getting American viewpoint to erm, set up in England, and I would just like to know how much it really comes to? I thought there were two answers to that, madam, through the Chair, er, the first is that we don't actually spend any money directly ourselves, as a County Council in America, we contribute towards the Regional Development Organization, the W M D A, and our contribution is about twenty thousands pounds per year. Erm, which is a very proportion of their costs, it's mostly funded by the D T I, and some private sector investment. They in turn, have consultants in Japan, erm, in Europe, and in the United States, and their particular consultant in America happens to be in Pittsburg, run by this chap called Simon who, by the way we feel is, is very effective and very good at his job. The second part of the question, erm, how do we evaluate it, is extremely difficult. Erm, we get er, leads, unfortunately they become available across the whole of western Europe or the whole of Britain, and we don't have hundreds of successes from America. It's clear they come one every so often, as the one from Germany, but when they do come, they're very worthwhile, it justifies our effort. I can't give you a figure now, on how many American firms there are in the county, erm, but I can do some work on it and come back to you. I would like, Chairman, to know, because er, it always seems to me that unnecessary money is spent in, in the American lead, so it's difficult to get any money. I don't know who's our representative to , and I think, I can and erm, I just, yes, I mean Europe yes, the Far East, yes, but are, is, a waste of money? My recollection, and I'm speaking from memory, and I could be wrong, but I think that the last time I looked at lists of the various companies in Telford, where I'm obviously more concerned, not, well, that's not to mean I'm not concerned elsewhere, but I'm more familiar with respect to them, my recollection is that the more American than anything else on that site. It's been certainly true er, Chair, that America has been the largest source of inward investment in this country consistently. I mean, ranking of the countries descending as business in the way it changes, and Japan comes first, Germany's gone down in recent years because of that trouble, but America has consistently been the major investor in this country. Not always noticed because if it's called Cements it doesn't look like a foreign company, but if it's called Mitsubishi or something well, it will stand out. But it is worth attacking as a target market, simply because of its size. Could The great, I mean, you've a valid point and I think it's due to the recession in America, I think we were disappointed were we not Bruce, that the results of our trip to er, New York State, and this has nothing to do with the enthusiasm of the business people we met there, everything to do, in my view, with the fact that the recession, and America's been through a very tough recession, they just don't look to expand elsewhere, but the reaction we had in, in er, in America was very, very powerful of, of a wish to want to do something when things look better. One of the, one of the, I think what perhaps American companies have, I have asked David to go upstairs and get the list of foreign companies operating in Shropshire, so we can actually see how many American companies there are, among, among, throughout the county. I think one of the things the American companies often do is that, rather than set up on a green field site, they often buy into an existing company, erm, and therefore it's, it's, it's a, it's a somewhat different form of investment to the Like Clarke Pardon? Like Clarke Fuller's Well, I think, erm, McConnell er, McConnell to let them Mm, McConnell to let them, have been bought by an American company as well then. So there is a flow of American source in, but less I think in terms of building a new factory on green field, a green site, and more of erm, buying an existing operation And, and, which might continue employment, which doesn't actually create extra employment. Sometimes it creates extra,sure Erm, I, I, I didn't say the question lightly it's just that I think it needs watching, and I wondered how it was, because I've heard so often in the past, that people have so many lines of enquiries, but the money goes, and you know, it's all marvellous, and I'm not suggesting The big Christmas, big Christmas card company, erm, and it is big, er, is American, and wholly owned American, and that's not , but they didn't build a factory, they took one over that's already, Right yes, sure In five, three, it says we've only got seventeen U S enquiries in the last twelve months, could I, could I ask how many of those seventeen produced anything? Yes,a lot of those are actually spread over the whole of the U K. One of the problems about, about dealing with somebody like in the process is that, one, they get their enquiries from the Investment Income Bureau, the Investment Income Bureau get their enquiries from the consulates, so what, what is happening, that they're only picking up those people who are searching everywhere. There's, there's no direct relationship, now, what we attempted to do with the Metropolitan Development Agency was to fill the direct link, so you can get in earlier erm, Can I just I think, I think it's a hundred and er, twenty eight foreign companies in Shropshire, thirty four of them are American. The next biggest is, is? The next biggest is erm, the next biggest is Germany and then followed by Japan. And the American companies are, er, Windsor Life is an American company, erm, I'm just picking out the, some of the big names that you see in Telford, Sanoko, er, Alcan, Clarke's Foods, Fruit of the Loom, Gibson's Greetings Cards, H F T Trust and Savings Plan, erm, you know, that, that's just Well it's, it's undoubted there are erm, sometimes, we have a listing of er, of all the different foreign companies who are operating. Er, er, er, government of what's going on at the moment Okay, any other points? Right. Business Development Section, Paper E. The er, Business Grants Panel share has, has, has now met on a number of occasions, and the three results of its decisions are set in the report. The, the problem that is arising in this, is that it is now clear that, er, that the Grants Panel are running out of money this year, because of the take up of, of lots more grants. And it, they're likely to need something like a further twenty thousand pounds er, if they don't have sufficient funds to continue to at the balance of this financial year. I mean, it isn't as though we have to operate a policy in which we heavily advertise the availability of grants, it, it can develop via word of mouth, if we advertise anything, we would be inundated with demand for to a level that we couldn't cope with. The recommendation of the report on that Chairman, is that er, we should erm, transfer twenty thousand pounds to the er, Business Grants from the, either from existing budgets and any other existing sources of funds which are available within the department, it would be, if we merely trawl through everything, we might find anyway we might have some fund, fund spending spree at the end of the year, see if we keep things, just let's keep the scheme going. Any comment? This seems, this seems a worthwhile thing to do to me, Chairman, this may reflect that, this position that we are in the business cycle that er, you know, with a slightly optimistic outlook, a lot of firms are seeing themselves in a position to expand and, and need this to help them do so. Yes, any other comment? We agree the recommendations then? at all? Yes I think what we have got to bear in mind, Mr Chairman, is that the small business is, it is a very, very dangerous time as we come out of recession, more businesses get into difficulties when they're into expanding, than when they're just, just surviving, if you like so erm, I think we have to keep a very careful eye on the next six months. True, yes, yes, yes, yes I'd agree, Ivor, one point four, Erm, yes Chairman, the, the suggestion of the recommendation if you like, that er, Reginald's erm, proposal it is, er to participate is, is er, rejected by er, I don't particularly feel that way about it, that erm, if, apart from the fact that the contribution is sizable, and I don't think that we'll get all that many applications from the Regional District Council anyway, but erm, I wouldn't see harm at all of both Oswestry and Bridgenorth being allowed to send a representative if there were any applications, it'd be good for their area, er, and er, even if they weren't allowed to vote on it, and I suppose they shouldn't be allowed to vote on it, erm, I, I would see it as erm, another attempt, another avenue to, towards partnership between District Council and the County Council development. Which at this particular time is, is much more I think, I take your point Ivor, and we don't dissent from it, what we have to guard against, two things, one, that the Committee becomes big and cumbersome, and two, of course, we mustn't get into a situation where a regional representative is repre is influencing decisions made elsewhere in the county, that's the effect of the Yes, well I, I, I make that point Quite, providing there was only one representative, and we weren't overburdened, providing it was clearly understood that they were there almost in the same way that a local member would be, to speak on a given item, and not to vote, then I don't think we'd have any objections, but it's entirely up to the Committee, how do you feel? Can I just say, Chairman, that the problem was that they asked for, the region asked for equal representation with the County Council, now if all the districts did that then there'd be, then the Grants Panel would have about twenty one people to I mean, for the operation to go ahead. I would support the Chairman's suggestion that if this is done at all, that it be done exactly on that basis as, as if they were a local member allowed to speak on that specific item, but not to vote on, but not to have a vote on anything. Yes, right. I think Chair, a far better idea might be that it, when we get particular applications from a given district, that the officers actually ascertain er, a bit of erm, information from that particular district in order to present to the Committee, to take into account when they're doing things, I think that would be a far better way because if we have politicians elected in that particular area, they'd certainly probably come and, and try and hold the sway for that particular item, and there may be justifiable grounds on a countywide basis not to concede it. Mm, it's a valid point But we already consult on We do, yes Well how do we feel, it seems to me not exactly consensus on this, this issue? We could introduce it for a trial period, we could I don't mind, I, I'm relaxed about it, I think Councillor 's point of view, and it is a valid point of view, erm, shall we, shall we permit the officers to negotiate using their best endeavours and see how it goes, but have a special meeting, but play it by ear, everybody happy with that then? So we're happy with the twenty thousand pounds which we need to find from our already er,okay. Tourist promotion. Paper F. There're a number of items er, Chair, erm, the brochure has been produced and well received. The production at no cost to the Authority because of the advertising revenue, extensive press coverage erm, and media coverage. Sixty major articles since April ninety three, erm, in such publications as the BBC's Tourism magazine,, Chat magazine, those three alone, the value of that publicity is fifty three thousand pounds, so our, our officers are doing well on that front. World travel market attended, the club promotion, although it's still running, hasn't been very successful, over four hundred bed nights into the campaign, as a result of that short running promotion. Product development, you have a leaflet on er, rural churches in front of you. Walking in time, through time is, is erm, being in proceeding. The objective to funding from the old objective programme is we've now learnt that we've been successful in getting a grant made towards the Centre feasibility study, Shropshire welcomes Japan television advertisement on the Japanese, Japan area, towards the pipeworks promotion and the fly-drive marketing initiative because, er, to get people from North America into the marches and staying here, so it looks as those projects will be almost fifty percent funded from Europe to objective two. The Bridgenorse, Bridgenorth I beg your pardon initiative is proceeding er, in terms of an advisory group, and we have as a committee, a Councillor Tony , a regional member, recently take, took the place of er, Councillor on that group, and he is willing to continue. We had to nominate a member. Similarly, the projects schemes that elect a member, it's Councillor , who's also willing to continue, and that's for this period of time. Chairman, erm, I think that erm, Councillor who is on this Committee is quite interesting in , and interested in this Bridgenorth initiative, and I think that he does,as are representatives of the transitional advisory. Is that seconded, any further nominations? I propose that Tony remains as our representative. That's seconded, nice to know we have a straight choice, as you favour, we'll take them in reverse order. Those in favour of Councillor Tony , please show, one, two, three, four, five, those in favour of the other gentleman, please show, one, two, three, four, good grief Blimey he's come closer than many do, okay, Can I propose Councillor for the one? and Councillor . Any further nominations for County? No, er I think er, Committee ought just to say thanks for both of them, I, I mean this isn't the way with reference to peace elects them democratic, though they're, I think both Mr and represent the County of Swindon now, and I'm grateful to both of them because they took a, a, a weight off my personal shoulders, which was useful. Come in Yes Could I say that there was? yes, yes. Yes, Mr Chairman, I, erm, I, I, I do appreciate that erm, I've been invited through Committee er, to go through what I do represent er, the building project erm, on behalf of the economic development, because as you all know, I'm of course on the economic development before, but er, in the past I've found that that I have er been, shall we say, relieved of my positions on other er, position, erm,unknownst to myself, and of course I have er, actually turned up on these planning functions and been there, and to me in the past, I have always found that if one is going to be missed one must then, one's either asked if he wishes to continue, if he's been doing his job properly, if he doesn't do his job properly then it's only right to replace him. But at least give that person whose turn er, on the Management Committee for representing er, another committee, give him the opportunity to s either speak on it, or to say whether or not he wishes to carry on and of course to see what the vote people would take, and to put himself forward even so, which unfortunately, I wasn't er, able to do so. But I think this is why But I think I do appreciate that the Economic and Development has invited me on. I think it would be wrong of this Committee to comment on the er, what happens in other committees, certainly in this Committee, I don't think any, anyone's ever criticized your erm, representation on the community project, we do perfectly, we can't hurt their decisions, so your relationship with this Committee is, is good, er, elsewhere, I don't know anything about it. Now, okay No, perhaps erm, we should note too, that the recommendation of the contribution of five thousand pounds, everybody happy with that? All I would say, Jerry, is that it'll have to come out of something like our carry forwards for this. Yes, which will be an item on the agenda later on. But we do agree, I, it's silly not to support money in the, the work they're doing is good, certainly the er, the Bridgenorth, in the tourist areas didn't look really well into making enquir to promote those. One of the big items there is the bridge project isn't it? Which is struggling to get off the ground. Did they ever get that under way? Erm, I think it's still under discussion. Still, mm, yes There are other things in development. yes, well, we listen well. Right, Paper eight, which is the sad paper, the earnings level in Shropshire. Well, the figures are there, it's, it's following the, the very substantial debate that took place at the last County Council meeting, on the issue of earnings within Shropshire, it's to give the Committee a bit more detailed information about the position, and, and particularly I think, the position about female earnings in the County er, where we're, we're really at the bottom of, of the U K lists. Erm, it, perhaps part of it has been that a lot of the job creation mentioned has actually been of female and part-time work, and a lot of the er, new businesses in erm, Telford actually employ a lot of women in, in those areas. So we are looking to the effect of the aims, a low paid county, that's not something, Chairman, I'm proud of, because I do think that, that those, that areas with a high paid economy are genuinely more prosperous areas. High pay doesn't actually mean that, that everybody is less wealthy, it generally means that people are more wealthy. The two out of here is. The other issue, Chair, that's on, is the issue of the low paid unit, and the er, the view as to whether we can keep it, about the wish to join the new West Midlands Low Paid Unit, who presumably know about the issue of pay er, of certain people in Shropshire. On the question of low pay, there is a point of view which some hold, that being an area of low pay attracts, help attract inward investment, and I can't deny that certain, not all, but certain companies certainly take into consideration. But, in my personal experience in America, not so much Korea, certainly Japan, erm, the, the first question invariably that you're asked is communication. That's always been my experience, and then even the question of your links with the local universities. In my experience it's always, it's higher than low pay, and I don't believe that companies go to an area because the payment of wages is low if everything else is not favourable to them as well, in fact low pay in itself does not attract, and conversely, I don't think the thought's an impossibility, because I've talked to potential inward investors, and jokingly, sort of teased them and if you get enough companies coming into Shropshire, then inevitably wages will go up, and they're intelligent people, and they realize it, and they not the magic ball, and of course when local shopkeepers are concerned about their businesses, then the amount of wages that are available to spend has an effect on your local small company. Those are my opinions, I don't expect everyone to share, but they're there. On the in er,not wish to help to support the low pay unit, we've two options, well, we've three. One, not to erm, be involved at all, two to be involved, and I s think we should because we get very valuable information and help from them, but my own opinion, and I think I speak for my group, is that we don't need to worry about having representation on the board, if we go for option two, which I believe represents the best value for money, but it's up to this Committee to decide, and it's in your hands. Any comments? Yes. I would agree entirely with all of the first part of your discourse Mr Chairman, Oh, right, I feel what companies are looking for is an available skilled workforce, not the opportunity to get a lot of unemployed people at a very low wage so, I'm basically supporting what you've said. But I do feel that it is, it would be a complete waste of this Committee's money, when we've many better things to spend it on, to join this low pay unit. It would be yet another committee, a group of sor whatever they are, that eat up our money, and no use or purpose in my opinion. Right, any other comments? Right, er, that, the, the earnings figures, and the unemployment figures in the next paper illustrate a labour market situation in Shropshire in which workers are in a very weak and unenviable position. I mean the phrase better low pay than no pay, has been used to sort of describe the economic situation and, and, and the, and almost the economic development strategy. But from the point of the people in that position, they're in a dilemma, they're in an extremely weak position. Coupled to that the er, sort of the statutory protection which has been in existence for er, workers for many years in some cases is, is being whittled away. Er, has been and is continue, continuing to be whittled away, so workers in Shropshire are, are in a poor position, and, and this is an opportunity to, to give them some help, to replace some of that statutory protection which is being removed. The low pay unit isn't er, a government civil service type operation, it's, it's an independent body. I think it provides very good value for money, er, I think it will give Shropshire workers some of the protection that they're lacking from the statutory instruments that are being removed, and from the labour market conditions they face, and erm, maybe er, a, a, some successful operations by this er, low pay unit would, would, would improve, improve the position in Shropshire, and maybe er, get employers to, to improve the er, conditions and wages that they offer, so I would certainly support er, option two. Chair This causes problems er, if I may say so, er but erm, it, the paragraph doesn't make any reference to the date, it's paragraph five point three, now I want to see debate in the point in erm, implementing it before the first of April. I think I'm, I'm, before the first of April. No, the intention is before next year, by next year. Yes, yes, one extra job I was just going to say, I think what you say on full employment, erm, elsewhere they're keeping wages and pay up isn't it, erm, and I've known a couple in Telford again, that there's work there, a new company it's perfectly easy to take on all the good skilled labour they want, then they say they feel they're very guilty because they're poaching it from across the road, the British company has probably been two wages so that the jobs, it does mount up, so I don't, I, I would like to know more about erm, what the low pay unit would really do to help us, and I look at this eight thousand two hundred and eighty pounds, and I think that would go an awful long way in the Mr Chairman, in helping to keep that going, which creates all the people who leave and get jobs, and good jobs, and get skills, and erm, I, I, it may be if there's going to be a big budget, eight thousand pounds is not very much, but I, but when you think an individual project like that of course, any sort of traineeship, it's a lot of money. Conversely, though, if this Committee instructed groups as it well could that it wanted regular updates on the pay position of this County, and he had to put someone to work on researching them, it would cost you what like that? Yes, Keith? Yes, Chair, I, I mean I support the criteria that's been laid out in five two there, I think it's very important that we do actually, important that we do actually highlight the issue of low pay, and where it's occurring, and in, in some way that then prevents companies, the, the unscrupulous type of companies that would come in to exploit that, from actually doing it, since most people would then be aware it, and I think that the last speaker's just suggested that it's an extremely cheap way of obtaining masses of information about Shropshire's erm, earnings levels, and I think that's very important that we are, and do come to grips with that, and clearly couldn't afford officer time to be spent on, on merely collating that all the time. It'd be a full time job I should say, possibly one or two posts and perhaps even more than that. Any further comment? Well I would, I would just like to draw the distinction between value added and other considerations, and what will create high pay, and giving high value added per employee, and that's really where we should be directing our efforts. I think, erm, unfortunately, an employer and even possibly any employer whether it's a nationalized industry or unnationalized industry will want to produce value added per employee, and that's where the erm, pay is going to come from. Er, that's assuming the employer wants to pass on in pay, the rewards of adding value. I would have thought the labour market conditions are also a vital ingredient if profitability is to be passed on or shared out in higher wages. It's inevitably, if we've got a high value added per employee, He can and he wants to increase his employee, his, his value added by increasing the number of employees. I mean, it's, it's, I really do feel on these tendency to come on all the reports, I think we want, I think we want to hear that jobs and wages will undoubtedly go up, it's erm this is absolutely inevitable that wages will go up and rise in the situation. It's almost equally inevitable that they will go down in the low income bracket. anyway, we aren't agreed on whether or not we support the low pay unit, so to resolve it can I move from the Chair, and we take option two, perhaps second it? Seconded. Is there an alternative motion, or do we just simply vote against? Yes. Yes, okay, those in favour then of my motion, please show. One, two, three, four, five. Against? Four A bit predictable, isn't it? Okay, I think I should point out to the Committee, I think it's self evident, that the gains will be dependent upon the budget, probably with regard to the position, and the vexing question of carry forwards. But er, that's another matter. Okay, I will now pronounce this single regeneration agency an integrated regional government, or missed one sorry. Paper H. Ah, yes, paper H. Right, it's his turn then. Sorry, okay. Who's doing H? Again. It's isn't it? Erm, unemployment in Shropshire, Chair, erm, a round-up of the figures which are traditionally given there in para two one, I don't remember, under travel to work areas, under what's called the narrow base. That's the way of calculating it. And, the narrow base erm, excludes certain types of people, therefore the rates are always higher than the other way of calculating it, erm, it's the number of unemployed as a percentage of the number of employees in employment, in their employment, plus the unemployed. Like that. Right, at the last Committee, it was suggested that the figures be presented to Committee on a town by town basis, I E not the wider travel to work areas, the reason being that the travel to work areas are, are quite large and sometimes mask differences in rates of unemployment between different settlements. Most figures are shown over the page, and pa in para two five, but they're calculated in a different way. That's not our choice, that's the only way we can get these figures from officialdom. That's why they're shown there, they're different to the figures shown on the first page of the report, but because they're calculated on the same base, er, one can compare at each other, one can compare the different towns. And those are the figures that we have. If, if anybody is interested, these unemployment rates are calculated by the number of unemployed as a percentage of the estimated total of the workforce, the sum of the unemployed claimants, employees, and call it self-employed, H M Forces and participants in work related training programmes. Therefore these will always be lower, but at least one can compare town with town, and see the differences. Then on the third page, some wards with very high rates of unemployment, I think they are the top twenty if memory serves me right. Now this paper has produced er, er, for information only, to keep members informed of what's happening out there. I think we should be aware, looking at these figures, that the female figures are, in my view, many, many, many miles away from reality. That these are official figures of parliament, let without money. If you did a survey of women of the age which people can work at, who would be willing to work if work were available, you'd have er completely different figures. Assuming of course, that most women see no point in registering under unemployed or whatever, because it, it achieves nothing. So that these are based on, I think I'm correct in saying, I'm not wrong, these are based on people registered. Registered, and in receipt of benefit. Benefit classific so they're an underestimate. Note the report right. Now, we go to this single regeneration agency, and integrated regional office. It's an important matter, this isn't it? It, it, I think it is actually, er, Chair, it's something that, that local governments as a whole needs to keep their eye on. Because what the government have done, is they've taken two, two steps, they've created a really, a joint regional office of government at civil service level, and they now have a single regional director who is in charge of all the departments at, at the . Now, that actually has chan is starting to change the nature of the way that government are control, seeking to control the services. And I, maybe I'm, I may be wrong on this, but it does seem to me that it is potentially a step down the road, in the longer term to the development of regional members. Er, let's, they are, seem to be setting up the s the administrative structures for regional government, without any democratic regional government taking part in the process. The second thing of course is, that they are coordinating the erm, through, through the single regeneration agency, and the, and the single regeneration budget, the way in which they handle their monies, which, which go into economic development type activities. The, the er, single regeneration agency is taking on board the issues of things like derelict land and a number of other ways in which, for example English partnership is in the regeneration industry, and a number of other ways in which the, the government have acted to, to try to make things happen. But they've also pooled together in this single regeneration budget on, and er, as it says on the back page, all those other budgets which were all handled separately before, to create this very large pool of money that is available. Now, I think what we've got to try and ensure is that, that rural counties like Shropshire get a fair crack at that money as well, and we need to be starting to develop and I'll touch on this if I come, gentlemen, when I come on to development strategy, we need to be developing a regeneration strategy for the county, so that bids to the government for funding from the regeneration budget and from this, from the regen from the er, the single regeneration agency, er, are seen against the background of a cohesive strategy, and we, I think we will be much more successful when we go for government money bids, on that particular basis. So really it's for information Chairman, but it's a watch this space one, I think, because, I think there is probably more behind the steps that have been taken here, as we're seeing on the face of it at the moment. I this could be a welcome providing that sooner or later the democratic element catches up with the bureaucratic one. Chair, I think that the pro the point is, is the emphasis is on, on partnerships is it not, and, and that those who formulate partnerships within the community with other organizations through the region of the local authority structure, then they will be the ones that will get the most of, of this funding. Nobody else will get any unless they, they've demonstrated that they've met the partnership criteria. So it's an important change I think in er, the way it's structured. Any other comments? I look forward to the day when we do have a regional tier of government, and erm, a very prominent local politician, not of my party, told me in confidence, that he believes that erm, there will be a regional tier of government sooner or later, if only to react to the pressures from Europe. And we do know, that when we're negotiating in Europe, the fact that we do not negotiate as the er, Portuguese, the Spanish, the Germans, negotiate, as a regional government, it means that we carry less clout, and that is a fact of European life. Right, let us live in hope. Right, provision of help to overseas local authorities, Paper J. Is this for information? Yes, we don't necessarily take any action unless the Committee thinks otherwise. Okay, could you make the report. Item twelve, which is paper K, er, the order has tumbled down in too many free meetings, which right, business links, otherwise known as the one stop shop. Otherwise known as the one stop shop, yes, just an updating for, for members on the basis of the report, the, there are a er, number of recommendations attached to the report, the business link proposal with it's core at, at Park in Telford is now erm, processing to, hoping to open in April or May nineteen ninety four. The suggestions are that the County Council in particular should help in the development of satellites to that erm, that business link, one in Oswestry and one at Craven Arms, and we should seek to make sure those satellites are available by no later than the end of nineteen ninety four, the beginning of nineteen ninety five. But the Oswestry one I think, would probably be only for the, to be handled faster, because that one is likely to take place in existing erm, council owned er, units at whereas the one at Craven Arms will require the, the building of a business development centre at Craven Arms, on part of the, on part of the joint development site between district and county, and the Rural Development Commission. Obviously a longer, longer lead in on that, erm, and, and the county would, clearly need to put some funding into the development to ensure that those er, those satellite businesses operate, and only when you fund those out of the rural economic development's initiative, but it seems to me to be important that we should ensure that businesses operating in the rural parts of the county have equal access to the facilities of business link and business advice. Two of course,operate within Telford. The recommendations er, Chairman, are that the, that we should support a payment of five thousand pounds to business link which we can find funds from existing resources that we've got. Erm, that the, that we should support the principle, we agreed the principle at the last meeting, in support of the business link and satellite in Oswestry, that we should sup support the principle of supporting a business link satellite in Craven Arms, and that we should appoint a representative to the business links board. Now the business links board will be er,cons constituted of nine individuals, three coming from the tech, three from the Chamber of Commerce, one from the County Council, one from the District Council, and one representative of the other district. Okay, yes, Mr Chairman, I, would like to slightly and trying not to be parochial, but having looked at the erm, figures, I, I just cannot believe that those are honest figures, I mean there are eleven hundred and sixty nine people unemployed in Craven Arms or something like that, and they've lost over a thousand jobs over the last few years, and erm, very few of those have been replaced. What that obviously means is that they've drawn from a very, from a very wide area and therefore, they, they've got the long, main industrial estate, which has thirteen factories, of which only three are occupied, and ten which are unoccupied, which are erm, in fact deteriorating. There's no maintenance, no rates, no insurances, they're in, they're in a sort of bad s or getting into a bad state, so I do feel that we should try and put some priorities behind this erm, particular business link in Craven Arms. I know the Craven Arms Town Council themselves are very keen on it, and they are going to invite the County Council to take part in the tasks, and I would very much hope that this Committee would support the County Council, doing everything they can to help Craven Arms and their particular erm, endeavours. Thank you for that contribution. Any other comments on the general report? I think equally we would support because the previous figures shows that the er, erm, the problems elsewhere, Craven Arms has its problems, I hear I, I, I could take you into in Craven Arms on this Wednesday morning and introduce you to more unemployed people than are shown on the register, I think Yes, you've made the point very well, I can well believe that. that erm, people don't necessarily go on this , but er, it's probably more or less typical of rural areas, where, where people just don't feel that there's any hope here. Apparently J P Woods had a very large female workforce, and a lot of those women were married and therefore not eligible to claim benefits when they're out of work, and therefore don't appear on the unemployment statistics. I mean, it, it, it is a very exceptional situation, and I don't want to be paro parochial but it's not as if other areas Quite right, well if it's, yes have got the same problem. I believe the problem is worse in Craven Arms that is shown up by the figures, I think everyone would accept that, what we wouldn't want, is for the impression wrongly to be created, that we're favouring the Craven Arms higher than Oswestry. No, no absolutely not, no absolutely not. Oswestry's figures are, are worse. I think Craven Arms, the thing Craven Arms actually want money so much as support. Erm I think they really do want the support, and they want the backing when they're negotiating with other, other bodies. There are so many bodies involved in this. We're spending, I assume that the five thousand pounds will be funded from this year's budget and will be spent before the end of the er, current financial year? Yes, can we then As far as J P Woods is concerned Chairman, erm, they may well have their workforce, and extended right up to Yes Can we take them item by item then, do we agree the five thousand for business links from existing resources? Any objections to that? There's the supporting the business link at Craven Arms, which we've had that eloquent appeal, I don't detect any objections to that, and finally we need to appoint the representative on the business link board. Can I have nominations. Can I propose yourself as the Chair of this Committee? Certainly, that's seconded. Any further nominations? I think the word is by acclaim is it? Not taking it out, or something. I'll do my best, er, I think I'm going out in London then aren't I, looking at the rest of the of the lads of the Chamber of Commerce. We might, who knows, who knows? Okay, well thank you very much, erm, where are we next? Government, yes, paper L, The Government of the European Union, it sounds good. There is some ex I think exceptionally good news, Chairman, and, and something which I think probably if there was one, would write a bulletin around the Council at that particular meeting to ensure that all members are aware of what has gone on here. That there are three, three issues that have happened. The rural development area has been reviewed, the County and the work principally done within, within the planning division, the County has, has led a, a team of the County and District Councils to bid for the retention of three areas which the rural development division were proposing to drop from the R D A. Those three areas were erm, Whitchurch, they were Oswestry town, and Higham. Now at the end of the day the, we were not successful in the bid to retain Oswestry town within the R D A, but I think we will be able to define the boundaries of Oswestry town, and count, count the unemployment then, and it shouldn't actually create a problem in that area. What we have been successful at and particularly important in point of view is that we have been successful in keeping Whitchurch within the rural development areas, and, and retaining the status of the available which that gives. That is distinctly important when one comes under the five B, because what's ineligible in those areas. So that what we have now in Shropshire, erm, on the first of the maps, if, if the new R D A's within Shropshire, which shows one in the south of the county, one in the, in the Oswestry area there, going across into Ellesmere, and this with, around the Whitchurch area. I think, I think particularly important for Whitchurch, in keeping up the er, degree of confidence in Whitchurch that people will actually, er, are, are, willing and able and prepared to exist in the area. March has objected five B status, Chairman, we were delighted to hear this before Christmas, that the European Union had recommended that the March's bid for five B status be approved. Er, that means that the, that the, that area will be eligible for European er, Commission funding er, on, of fifty percent for eligible projects during the next six year period. It could mean bringing somewhere between about ten and fifteen million pounds into Shropshire over that six years from Europe, into, into Shropshire, not in the whole of March's area, but into Shropshire, during that period, to help projects in the rural west of the county. It's not all absolutely good news at the present time, because the final boundaries of the area are not yet determined and we are currently in negotiation with the U K government about the precise boundaries of the five B area. The government, I, I find it somewhat disappointing that having put in what I think was an extremely good bid, I think having had that bid accepted at the first stage by government on their shortlist, having then had the bid accepted by the European Union, with the populations really that we submitted to them, we now find that U K government are actually trying trade back some of that population, and, and area coverage of the bid, to be able to use some of that spare capacity which they would generate within the U K, within the European population figure elsewhere within the country. I mean, I think something, Chairman, that we should actually seek to resist, given the effort that, that everybody has put into, has, has put into getting that five B status, into the west of Shropshire, and into Herefordshire. Yes Mark? Er, yes, well, I'd, I'd, er, I'd like to make two proposals, first of all that we formally congratulate our officers for leading the team that er, put together this successful bid, erm, but I'd also like to say something about these concerns about the boundaries because it's Oswestry again, amongst mainly the sort of north of the county around Oswestry, which like with the rural development area, could be left out, and, of course, economic development doesn't stop at a parish boundary people cross it, it's part of their economic activity and erm, I know that some of the sort of proposed projects put together for the use of this five B money, er, around the Oswestry area, are extremely desirable projects, er, and are achievable projects, and it would be a tragedy if er, if they were, if, if we failed to achieve them because of er, a kind of a bureaucratic dotted line which say you can't have the money because you're the wrong side of the line. Erm, I don't know how, what we can do, I, I would suggest that we er, the Council writes to the President of the Board of Trade, making representations in support of the original boundaries of the bid, and, and also writes to our M Ps, whose constituencies are involved in this bid area, asking them to support these representations, er, er, and do the best we can to make sure that the, the five B area is as we submitted it. Erm Yes, thank you. This is a, probably an appropriate moment for me to, to refer to the letter I've received from John , who as you know, who's been served in respect in London, I, I, he's asked me to read the letter but it's fairly lengthy, and his first part simply reiterates the point which Bruce raised about the er, er, attack on the boundaries. He then goes on to refer quite correctly to the fact that apparently they're using the nineteen eighty one census figures, instead of the ninety one census figures, this could result in er, a reduction in the amount of the cash available, and we should resist that, I personally think that's less important. It is important, but less important than keeping the boundaries, that's only my view, and he along with Malcolm here, suggests that either myself or the Council or the Chairman of Council, somebody writes to the appropriate Secretary of State, to bring these matters to their attention. It would be helpful if we can say that this had all-party support, is there any problem with that? Can I adjust my proposal then, to include the bit about the populations so that we can make representations about the boundary and the use of ninety one statistics rather than Keith? Chairman, I think this classically reinforces the argument for having regional government does it not? Because we're having this sort of interference from a central source, er, they're actually handling in collating and all the information related to bids has been made throughout the whole of England, and it's, it's just too, too large to control, and it's so unfair in the way that they will interpret different things from the remoteness of London, and I think it's important that, to notice too, that the amount of monies that have gone into the Scottish regions since the im part of the E C prior to the E U, and it's important to realize how much control they have actually have and how that money was dispersed. And we could actually have that in the West Midlands, should there be such a regional government ever emerges. Chairman, I must just say about other organizations, it is approved that they're going, part of the West Midlands region, is more better off than integral part of the region of Great Britain, or whatever, erm, if they've got money into their region, they jolly well keep it there, we don't know where Coventry is. That's exactly what I was going to say, Mr Chairman, it's, it might be as Mr says, or it may, it may well make matters worse, I don't think we should get into the debate on how the national government are doing, No, this issue is one of the er, of what affects our County. We've got our point of view on this Well we'd rather be talking to the West Midlands, Chair rather than fighting about where it's going throughout the whole of England, which is a slight difference, in geographical terms. Anything else, yes? Mr Chairman, I would just like to, to sort of add my congratulations to Councillor , because, I have heard from numerous sources, that our bid was extremely professional. I think the officers really are to be congratulated, and erm, one can't sort of guess what could have happened if it hadn't been so professional, but I suspect the fact that we won, what we've won, is a result of the professionalism of our and I really would like to congratulate I think Support, and the list, I mean problem with line twenty three, reputation is involved . Quite a phenomenal achievement for the party to pool that number of quite diverse opinions together, professional , Country Landowners Association, all the District Councils, have done an excellent job of unity and cooperation, and I think that's very, very welcome indeed. And I can honestly say, along with most people I'm reluctantly coming round to the concept that the probability is that the county will cease to exist shortly, and there'll be hopefully not more than two other authorities doing the job we're currently doing. I must in honesty, wonder whether the smaller, reduced unitary No authority will have the clout to pull this sort of thing together but again, we are debating regional government, and we aren't debating unitary authorities. Anyway, thank you very much for the, you, you probably didn't hear all the reproofs on the radio, Steve, some about my er, radio staff bottle. I listened to it with great interest, and er, I thought again that the County Council was lead role was modestly but quite accurately described in that, fairly lengthy er, interview. And I've also found out that he's not interested in fishing or bridge, the man's one intre two interests, work and er, rejuvenating his house, and his, and he doesn't cook even. Now, isn't shameful? Anyway, , can I, can I just say, thank you Chairman, but could I just say on two three, I think that one of things that built the partnership was actually the launch of Ludlow, and that all those organizations were there, and helped part of the process, and I think one of the things we need to think about, Chairman, is now we've got that B status, even though we're arguing at the fringes, we've actually got it, is perhaps doing another event like Ludlow, to involve all the organizations that, that, that will be participating in the programme, to give them a, so that they feel a, a common ownership of the programme, they can put forward the projects they want, they feel they are part of the process. I think it's those kind of things which holds the partnerships together, and keep everybody good. Right, well following that then, is it agreed that also we write to both the Secretary of State and our local M Ps, Yes putting our points of view, and we agree to say that they are with complete all-party support. And, and Chairman, that we've had support, we've had a great deal of help from party in Europe and it's kept us informed Yes, indeed, indeed, yes. Now objective two status in Telford, a happy story, but it's not as happy. Well not as happy Chairman, because There's still quite as I said yesterday, if I was a betting man, I wouldn't have bet on getting anything actually, erm, and the partnership between the County Council and, and the District Council have put together the bid for objective two status in Telford. The original bid was for the retention of the er, objective status in the Telford and regional travel to work area, which is the whole of the region and Bridgenorth area. Erm, it became very clear that that, that bid erm, was in fact, at an early stage, that that bid was not, did not have a realistic chance of being successful, so as, as you know Chairman, when you went on the delegation to see er, Mr in London, actually at that meeting, er, the members of the delegation said to the Secretary of State, well, we recognize, Secretary of State that it's the wrong area, what we'd like to really argue for is a bid for the urban core out in Browsley, erm, in, at the end of the day, we didn't even quite get that, but what we did manage to get was objective two status for the urban core of Telford still, and I think that was probably against the odds. Whereas I always felt that we would get five B, I didn't feel confident we would manage to retain any objective two, and, and the partnership in that area have managed to retain it. On that, I think it is generally known, that we, that Telford wasn't anywhere near the top of the list, and it had been taken purely on the question of the er, needs of the various areas, it's unlikely that Telford would have succeeded, even with its reduced geographical area, but I made discrete enquiries and was told that the factor which tipped er, the Commission in favour of Telford, and this has an important bearing on what we're going to discuss later, was the fact that Telford has been very good in taking up schemes and providing their section, and not just the Wreakin District Council, other area, other bodies in Telford, of getting good innovative schemes off the ground and providing the cash, they didn't, as some areas did, get the status, and then hardly do anything about it. Now, I think that's significant for us when we start looking at our own response to what we're doing, both in objective two and in, more importantly in five B. You will, you note the recommendation and again thank you for general support on that issue. Item fourteen, rural economic development initiative. Are you ready. Yes, Chair, it's er, remember at the, the last meeting we touched on the first part of the report, the worry about the issue of closing shops, and rural post offices and garages, and there's considerable interest from all members er, as to what could be done. What we've come forward now is, through is a series of proposals, now these would apply to all, all of these, there was some concern at the meeting that we didn't of them, which appeared to have no, no chance at all as I told you, so all of these issues would actually apply to all of them, but the kind of things that are talked about, is trying to get a, a standard of systems throughout Shropshire so we need the importance of the way they, they sell a fruit shop within, within a, a rural are a rural village. Erm, where the, the authority, not just the County Council, but the authority in the partnership, get involved in lobbying exercises with the, with the government to try to ensure that rural post offices can actually give out vehicle licences, because it's very, if you look in the north of the county, outside the towns there's only four post offices, I think, that can actually give out vehicle licences, and yet in the rural areas, we have a lot of people with vehicles, and we, and the way that it counts towards, the way that it counts up towards a post office's survival, it's these high value items are significant in keeping post offices open. That we should work with the R D C in helping to develop management skills in, in the village shops, that we shouldn't see whether we can't use the village shops as tourist information points in the area. You know, there are a string of the things of this kind of nature to try to make village shops er, more viable to try and ensure their survival. Erm, there's just one item which m might be added, or perhaps our representatives on this body could take it up some time, and that's the amount of deposit which is needed by the post office from er, new tenants, I don't know if they're called tenants, or licensees whatever, to run rural post offices. I believe that if the post office changes hands, that's quite a crucial time because the newcomers may have to put up front quite a large sum of money. I know this was the case in an Oswestry post office, although it was a, on, on a suburban estate where there had actually been er security problems, or pilfering problems there. But perhaps you could look into that. Well thank you, er,yes. Erm, may I just add also, that, that it's, it's my feelings that the security aspects of rural post offices, the face that we're giving out advice into given problems, er, I know in my particular area, we had a, a post office erm, kitted out, erm, there were tremendous costs involved in the security aspects in that particular post office or sub-post office. And I think you'll probably find that that is going to be a problem in rural areas. Not that I don't wish it to carry on. You know, to be aware of the situation, It's something the loans scheme could actually look at, I should think. Look at the whole thing and if they want to take out we should offer to help them Finance the security Yes, yes, sort of a one-off payment, an ongoing, erm, response. Any other comments? We do need to appoint our representative, or aren't, we haven't reached the Whitchurch initiative yet? Alright, sorry Right, Whitchurch seven, the, the report they want, where we're getting to and there is an appendix at the proposals of course, for developing erm, a forum for Whitchurch er, with a range of activities that we could undertake to try to regenerate some confidence in Whitchurch. I see us moving more and more, towards what I call these kind of targets of activities, we've got the Victoria Ward in Ludlow, we've to the er, the Whitchurch initiative, there's something going on in, in Lud in Ludlow at present which is particularly education, social service linked at , but at the end of the day that's also about jobs, two jobs of training, and perhaps one of the ways in which we solve er, land issues erm, and, and of course Craven Arms is now, is now coming up in each profile as needing something done, and I'm also being approached about the East Water Block Coking where there are particular problems in those areas. The Whitchurch one is probably the second most advanced one now after the Victoria, Oswestry ward, but the Oswestry, sorry the Victoria ward instead of Oswestry, and there is a, a, a need, I think Chairman, that I think will be very close now to, to forming a, a, a joint consortium to look at, which goes between the County, er, the District, the Town Council, the Tech, the Rural Development Commission, local businesses in Whitchurch, the local Chamber of Commerce in Whitchurch, to try to pull everybody together, to pool their efforts and resources for the town. And, and, and there is the need to appoint, er, three representatives, Chairman, to serve upon this Committee, on this Whitchurch forum. With regard to the three representatives, can I propose from the Chair that we split them very conveniently, one Liberal, one Labour, and one Conservative. Is that agreed as a fair way of proceeding? Right, fine, nominations? Well, then I propose Jack for our group, Certainly I've got a convoluted proposal,people Well, I, I, if I can anticipate, it's quite possible for Arthur to be in another two groups, to er, notify us who their representative is in due course in writing The same applies to our Conservative members, let us know in due course. Okay. Livestock studies, whatever that is. Yes, just for information, Chairman Yes erm, really the other items are, the other items on the report are for information apart the child care links. Yes we need a, we're spending money again. If we're spending much money, Bruce, it'll be as big as this er, code before we get any. Well, I think we may actually be able to get some of it actually with support towards it, if we play it right, because other things are particularly important that we support organizations which are trying to solve the problem of women returning to work when they have children, and to cre so that they can create the mechanisms that the children can be looked after, after school and during the school holidays. And in, in a sense, it's trying to use an economic, it's, it's because they're, they're setting up child care organizations, people employing child care, it's, it's creating an economic development solution to the social problem. A hopeless Mr Chairman, it's just, just the sort of reason why we didn't su didn't support spending eight thousand pounds on, on some low pay unit, this is just the sort of thing that we feel that, that Committee's money should be spent on. Well we welcome the latter part of your comment, I was going to make a wisecrack about this is our idea of getting back to basics, family values, but I don't want,I'm going to stay out of it . Malcolm, you indicate Do you, do you happen to know, will this service give benefit advice as well, because the, the budget which introduced a, an allowance of a kind for, for child care, is actually quite complicated, and, and it's kind of er, an amount of income which can be disallowed before Family Credits are calculated and it, it, it involves a new kind of benefits trap as well , and I can see people needing quite a lot of advice about how to get it, and, and when not to get it and so on . I wasn't aware of that problem Yes Can something, but if they don't do something which is suggested yes, yes, Well, there is general agreement on the free counselling for families, thank you. Any other points? Chairman, could I just mention to the Committee, on Shropshire child care links, erm, the County Council of course, is also the registration body that erm, registers childminders and day care, and erm, while obviously this is very much to be supported and ties in with Social Services' own requirements to promote child care, it should not be seen, and we should perhaps, Bruce make a, we can have discussions with, we should be careful to endorse, the giving of this money doesn't necessarily imply or endorse the standards of the people on their books, who may be people that the County Council in another arm, are investigating and in some cases, taking action to close down. So, we just need to be clear that er, we're not actually endorsing the list necessarily. Right, Paper M which follows. There, there is no Paper M. That's the economic development strategy. Sorry Erm, the problem is that this should, this agenda was prepared over the Christmas period basically, and, and we started on the preparations of an economic development strategy in, in accordance with the way we'd done it before, which was basically a strategy of what we were going to do ourselves. And it did seem to me that in the light of, erm, of the single regeneration budget, on the light of the need to be developing a regeneration strategy for Shropshire, perhaps the role of the County Council in this affair should actually be, er, as, as the local government for the county, should be to look at preparing a, a regeneration strategy for the whole county, at which the work that we do to economic development is one of the pillars of support as is the work that the districts do is another pillar of support, as is the work of the R D C and the objective five programme, and all the various other bodies that are involved in, in economic development and similar activities in . So really starting towards looking at the different nature of strategies the new one would have. It would enclose within it, a traditional economic development strategy for the work this Committee's helping, but it should look in a wider issue, and seek to influence wider, wider things that happen within the county. And it should have a view on, on issues like education and transport, and those kind of things because they're all critical to the long-term future of economic viability within Shropshire. What I was going to suggest then, Chairman, in the light of, in a sense a change of, a change of thought by me over the Christmas period, in a way it's probably best it happened, is to ask if we could, because I'm, I'm keen that, this kind of different kind of strategy, there is a, there is a member ownership of the strategy, rather than just put something to you, that you would then have to, you know you, you have the paper in front of you, it's a thirty page document, and you decided is actually to suggest that you have actually a, a, a member group of, of, of a few members, perhaps three or four members, erm, to actually work with me on this, in the development of that strategy, so there was actually a member involvement, because it's straying more into the political field. There is a member involvement in the process of developing that overall strategy, in, into the kind of Shropshire that we would wish to see in the future. Any comment? Well, I, I think it's a sound idea, I think it's sad at a time of local government reorganization when we're likely to see authorities getting smaller, and yet the, the issues won't get any smaller, and the new authorities may well be having to look at ways of getting together with their neighbours to look at strategies which cover areas of the sort of size of the old county areas, and also getting together to, to, to meet, erm, organizations which will still on county-size boundaries, like Techs, and, and similar. So, yes, I would certainly support that we look into this proposition. Doesn't that make a mockery of smaller unitary authorities? Well, yes Of course it does, we look at the guidance notes, and they say things like the police and the health authorities want erm, larger units the size of the present County Council, I'm sorry to go on. No, no, you don't have to apologise to me. You know I can't help it. It, it highlights the need for us to take a rational approach does it not, to er, the local government review, and realize that cooperation is essential between all parties concerned for the best interests of Shropshire as, as a whole, the people of Shropshire as a whole. It's very important. I'm, I'm, I'm resisting temptation to get involved in this debate. Let's stick to this concept, I, I welcome it, I think it shows good thinking on the part of our officers and I would like to suggest that er, I take er, a back seat on this one, and I, I, I'd feel probably, set up a sub-committee, I would think four or five is ample, and I would like to propose that Malcolm chairs this meeting, so that we have a fresh brain and a younger brain, looking at the future's problems. How do you feel about it? I still think the P A G is probably about the right size body isn't it? How many in that? Seven, I think Seven, a bit big I would, I wouldn't go bigger than five, you get through a lot more business with four or five. Still, I don't, I don't mind. You do want it cross-party? Absolutely, absolutely. I'll second it Two, two, two, two, one, yes Two, two, one and, and the groups tell us who the representatives are, and I, I won't serve on the committee, I think I'll er, that I'll, you've given me enough to do anyway, there's a limit, and unlike our officer, I do have to do some cooking. You'll never live that down, then Frank Yes, I thought that was a bit of flab that we've got Do you get a better breakfast at school? Right, on the other comments on this strategy, Could I just say to Chairman, Yes I, I, I could do with knowing those, those, the names fairly quickly on that one, because, mhm, get started on Yes, and get some dates, yes, yes that exercise to produce something by the end of January,consultation. Right. Erm, Training for Work, Paper O, it's for information isn't it? Right Chairman, yes, the report's for information, there are a few things to update, occupancy remains healthy, erm,the working total has fallen slightly over the Christmas recess, but erm, really by ten there. I have put into the report that we did erm, sign contract variations on, on Friday last week, which will have regularized all the training we're doing, so we're now in the comfortable position where erm, people wanting to add a further right hand column to that table there, erm, we've now got contracts which cover a band of two percent of the training . In other words, we get paid for it,and er, that's very satisfactory. Erm, over the page, the section, and the session, training needs position, erm, the erm, the work of the consultants has been completed, and we've still not got a report from Tech or any indication of, of erm, what their reaction would be to the, to the report which comes out. Erm, so it's still a issue on this. Erm, leisure services product, erm, project erm, closure, really that was an opportunity to erm, to close the loss making element of provision without cost, and in view of the erm, rather poor outlook for maintenance work for the next contract year, it seemed sensible for us to do that. Erm, likewise there's still been no formal response on training travel budgets from the Tech. Erm, I'm not in a position to add anything very much to the article for next year, I spent most of Friday afternoon with the Tech last week, erm, but there's still obviously a good deal of uncertainty about programmes for next year, erm, what I think has been very positive is that we have now er, this year for the first time since the Tech's formation, they've started to discuss some of the issues about the programmes with a group of providers. Good We hope that that will lead to improved programmes. The Tech is not expecting to have their budget levels set erm, by the government until towards the end of this month, which means that once again er, there is going to be a rush to get contracts in place before the old ones expire. On Community Action, this is an employment service programme, er, it's got off to a very slow start. Erm,on Friday, there were only six, erm, trainees on the programme. Erm, but quite a lot of work had been done, and there are another twenty four classes going to be this week, erm, staff recruitment is complete, staff training is complete. On the staff side we have recruited nine individuals, er, but since we've lost three members of staff at the same time, that is a net increase of six, and since most of them are part-time, there's actually only three full-time equivalents, we've been able to do that entirely within the we had on establishments at work. Erm, I think the next item that requires an update is redundancy in paragraph eleven, erm, Walters at Ludlow are updating their Bishop's Castle factory, erm, in the last week in February, with a loss of seventy three jobs, arrangements have been er, now made for the first erm, redundancy counselling and job search support course, to start on the twenty fourth of January. Erm, the employment services has agreed to fund that entirely, so it's not erm the company's not having to make any contribution towards it, and very probably there will be a second course a week or two later. Erm, there's also been progress made on, erm, army redundancies. The first pilot residential course has been planned for the twenty first of February, and it's going to take place at C O D at Donnington, and subject to that course working out successfully, erm, the employment service in the army will be working on this, the employment service department asked to deliver the army to post six more courses erm, next year. That's the next financial year. Progress has already, has also been made on erm, the army's pressed for County Council support to launch their Best Trained Workforce of Britain promotion, and, and a day's been set, the twenty second of April, far forward . Erm, in paragraph thirteen, Invest in People, the target date for er, achievement in the award has been delayed from the twenty seventh of, sorry the twenty eighth of February, until the twentieth of May, and the reason for that has been staff effort required to get community action going. It seemed far more important to out and the programmes on the top line, and then the icing on the cake, which is community service. Now, that's all Chairman, the report is for information. Thank you Lance, any comment, questions? I think we should er, minute our approval of thanks to the Tayman team, they are, I think accepted as the most efficient and the best training managers in the County, and it's nothing we do, it's everything that the officers and the staff do. Okay. Item seventeen, Paper P. The Central Sc Screen Commission, Chair. Erm, film's big business, to get a film to come into your area, you spend a lot of money, and it's direct expenditure of the local economy on a combination of food, and provision of supplies, and if it's the right type of film, it can encourage tourism in the medium and long-term. The big cities, New York, London, and Liverpool even, can afford to have units set up to encourage the production of films and videos and so on in their areas, in fact there was a report in last Thurs thirtieth of December's Shropshire Star about Liverpool's office. A hundred and fifty films, television and video productions they've attracted in four years. We obviously can't afford to do that, on that scale, but what we can do, is fund into the regional scr er, screen commission at Birmingham, to their register, where they will hold details on what's available, er, what houses, what large houses are available, things that can be set in, what lo what er, countryside there is, what facilities there are, what firms there are locally that can provide services to for a cost. Excuse me. Now, it's obviously a bit of a gamble, we might give them some money, we might not get anything from it, but we might get a major feature film, or a major television series, which would be very worthwhile indeed. They have asked for two thousand pounds, the Centre have asked for two thousand pounds from all County Councils, but I know that they would accept less if we negotiate that, a lower figure. So erm, the report asks the Committee for their views, because I think it would be a worthwhile thing to do. Well I feel fairly positive this Chair, I look forward to when Brookside is replaced by Victoria Ward, We've got our own Brookside. Oh, right, erm, I think Shropshire's well placed for this sort of work, I remember when Shrewsbury was, was chosen for Christmas Carol, I mean not Stratford, not Chester, not the obvious places that spring to mind, but somewhere different, and I, I think Shropshire may be full of places which are not the obvious place, but which film companies may be able to find if they're shown in the right direction, so I would certainly propose that we, you know, follow this line. Yes I feel, Mr Chairman, Shropshire is the obvious place. Erm, some film producer sitting in London, thinks of a rural county, he'll probably think of Shropshire, and I think this is typical example of how we can dribble away our scarce resources on a couple of thousand here, a couple of thousand there to other bodies, erm, I am, I'm, I'm against this proposal, we'll keep our money for essential items. Mm, well, bread on the waters if not on the waters of the Severn, any other comments? I think Chair, you have to speculate to accumulate don't you? And if you don't, not prepared to promote yourself, then nobody else is going to do it for you, and this is an ideal way of doing it, at, at fairly minimal cost. I would I think we could promote ourselves, Mr Chairman, but what I can say is that I'm against contributing to all these West Midland bodies that probably won't, won't give us any help at all. I, I, I think Chairman, that I, having to put very good money after bad doing it this way, I think it's perfectly true, people think of Shropshire as a rural county, and I think film producers will be people erm, if they want to come here they will and it's hardly Council business, taking huge amounts erm,well known production,but er, quite often major films have been Well, I suspect today didn't ever change anybody's well, no opinion, so if I take Malcolm's, yours, is it a motion that we support the recommendation, is that seconded? Yes, You will presumably, right so those in favour of the recommendation, show One, two, three, four, five Against? Four against. At least if a film does come, we'll see that, if the cameras come in anywhere, we'll see that all-party representation on it. I'll get a job as an extra. Where are we? Erm, eighteen isn't it? Yep, liaison with Wolverhampton, well. Promoting Tech. They need promoting. I think the, the university are always welcome to, always welcome people who, who're interested, and if anyone wants to have a sort of, look round, I'm sure it can be arranged. They're very keen that people should know what they're doing. Item nineteen, annual conference, next Chair, erm, every year we try and hold er, an event or something of interest to the local business community, to local industries, and we have contacts with local freight-forwarders, banks and companies that have exported, embassies, and we're proposing that we erm, hold the event this year on the subject of exporting and how to do it, because we've had very many small companies that might be clueless and want to know erm, exact nuts and bolts of it, so if we could run an event on that basis, and then use that event as the core of a group to take across in this case, Ireland, but perhaps in the future, Holland, who knows where else, to actually sell, using the services of erm, the Embassy in Dublin, our Embassy and the Chamber, with whom we have very good links, then it would be to the benefit of our businesses. Erm, we have experience of this, erm, or officers do, from other authorities, and many small companies are fearful of going out there and exporting. But if they go once with a group, they then go a second, and third and fourth times by themselves. Then we've done our work, I would say that my average of ten company representatives went over, perhaps two would find it was useful, useful fact finding mission, but it didn't achieve much, two would click instantly and have orders while they're there, and the remainder would over the period of six or nine months later, if they worked at it, gain orders or perhaps, perhaps more importantly agents or distributors to sell their products for them in that country. It need not cost, cost the County Council anything at all,right, the combination and so on , we can do it for relatively low cost, and may get financial support, it's a, it's something worth doing to exploit the links that we have with our Embassies and Chambers of Commerce abroad. Sorry, that's my view of commerce, it's an unlimited view. Right, comments? I think it's a very welcome initiative. I'm absolutely amazed Chairman,in Ireland, Yes, indeed, yes, yes, mind you, we make a lot of Guinness in, in Acton you know, you know, we make it over here. Okay, well, we agree the er, the recommendations. Yes, rural development, new designation, yes. This is actually the detailed report of the new R D A and the R D T process which is going ahead this week, and also to the Planning Committee. Erm, I think that the most important point within the, the er, report Chairman, is in paragraph erm, three four, where the Rural Development Commission are, are saying very strongly that if there's more than one area designated within the county and there are now three areas designated within Shropshire, in the past there was only one R D, R D A area, that it all runs through, there are now three separate R D A areas, the, the R D, the Rural Development Commission are recommending very strongly that if you do have that, then they should be managed by a single R DP Committee. And I think I would recommend that, that we support that line. The reason for it is that resources are likely to be allocated to the individual R D P committees, on probably a per capita basis, and if you do that say with a small R D A like the Whitchurch one, it will just barely be possible to do any projects within that area, given the level of resource you've got. So you're better having it within one pool, and then you can decide locally the way your priorities lie within the area. What are the mechanics of, of setting up the, the new body? Well I think it'll probably, in Shropshire terms, largely follow on the existing body, in which there are two County Council representatives on the existing R D T, and I would expect that to continue. I think one's yourself as Chairman of Planning. That's right, any problems with the recommendation? Good next, Otis Centre, Shrewsbury. Shrewsbury request Chairman. Erm, members will be aware of the at the bottom of Abbey Foregate, opposite the Abbey which work is currently under way on, erm initial discussions with County Council officers from E E D department led to some suggestions being made. Shrewsbury and Borough Council have taken up the flagpole, have decided to spend a considerable amount of money on providing a visitor attraction in those buildings, around those buildings. Develop will be erm, shown, but it is not about running it's about medieval Shrewsbury, many towns have these, the Yorvik one's been spectacularly successful, and has been copied in places like Canterbury for those that saw Songs of Praise last night, with even, erm, it is evident that this will be a new visitor attraction for the town with a generation of jobs, permanent jobs in, in that er, facility, it will improve the erm, appearance of main entrance into the town centre, very important in terms of attracting other people in the future, unfortunately the Borough Council haven't quite got enough money, or they tell us. They're asking for a donation of twenty thousand pounds, put that in the context of nearly say six hundred, six hund sorry five hundred and forty thousand pounds that they're spending, and maybe ninety thousand pounds English Heritage are spending, they're asking for us to fund the shortfall. There's a gap of twenty thousand. Now, if we say no, the project will still go ahead, but it will be slightly scaled down, and there will be a meeting later this month to decide how to revise the spec erm, it's possible for example, that the lift to allow disabled visitors to the first floor would not be included if the twenty thousand pounds weren't forthcoming. However, erm, it will go ahead, with or without county funding. It will be enhanced with county funding which will be met by capital funding. Well my own view is subject of course to our budget. Not being too vicious, is that I hesitate to support this, until we see what the level is. Could I just add to that Mr Chairman, that all major local businesses have always, have also been approached for er, sponsorship of this project. It's too early to say yet what the response will be. But I personally, certainly hope that quite a substantial money will come from the local businesses. Mm, mm, I heard an interesting programme on Radio Shropshire which talked about the tailed bat, which brought out the historical importance of the building, and I learnt one or two things that I didn't know, apparently one of the very early carvings, who plays Sidney I think, and yet, yet it wasn't er, destroyed until the next revolution took place. Quite interesting. Does anyone object to giving er, a comparatively small donation when you look at the, the total sum involved? Unanimous? With the comment Chairman, the comment about erm, us having an involvement with the scheme, An acknowledgement an acknowledgement, and acknowledgement in a manner to be agreed, if that really is, I mean if we put our twenty thousand pounds to pay for the lift for the disabled or something like that, No, I think it's just, it's just to ensure that there's a recognition that there have been a number of partners, that have led to the creation of the project. Well, to put it very crudely, in the current unitary authority debate they don't forget that we have helped. Sometimes the districts occasionally, but not always do. If I may, Chair, sorry, erm, if it proves necessary that twe less than twenty thousand pounds is, is requested because local businesses come up with some of it, therefore we presume on that basis we I bet you they'll find a way of spending it all. I'm sure Okay, perhaps the most important item that is the Paper U, which is the budget. Right. Thank you Chair, er, obviously this comes at the end of er, of er, a series of reports where we've put back additional or complementary revenues and the last item, number T, talked about a twenty thousand capital contribution, er, the budget will bring all this together, and if I could just add one erm, update on the first page, where paragraph three, and talk about the provision resource allocation to this Committee being a reduction of fifty thousand from the community based budget. The Policy and Resources Committee on Friday considered the position that included a take, a potential take of fifty thousand for this Committee, and similar reductions from other committees, but which left the funding deficit problem of six hundred and seventy one thousand, and what the Policies and Resources Committee decided was to ask the committees, all committees to look at how this six hundred and seventy one thousand gap would be funded, and that that should include committees like ourselves which had already identified and had put into the guidelines for reduction, the full five percent reduction that had been requested to be identified early in the process. Fifty thousand represents about a five percent reduction. So tell us which are these other committees have identified the five percent. There were three, three Counties, Planning, Trading Standards and Economic Development. Yes, but Trading Standards are part of Public Protection, and if you lump the whole of Public Protection, you don't get five percent do you? No you don't So we are the only Committee who are saving the , that's taking our budget globally as, I think, I think it's four point eight percent, if you want to be pedantic about it, but we are planning and that's the only ones, if you take that mode of view, and if we took, if we took training out I take your point Okay, so these, these are the the fa the facts of the, of the situation, and one of the points about the strategy, er, and perhaps looking further, that was highlighted, was the use of carry forwards, which Chair's already referred to. Ad nauseam It, it is, it, it is seen as a possibility that if you use carry forwards as a way of finding the reductions, A you wouldn't actually reduce a service on the face of it, and you would also, it would also give you a chance to examine where those reductions in services could be found in the coming months, er, rather than take decisions immediately. So, I think that was one of the strands in the course of Resources' decision, that er, we should look and cast the net around again, just to see if there were any way of erm, of finding this six hundred and seventy one thousand without damage to the fabric of services. Can I ask our officer to comment on what would be the effect of reducing our importance have on our, hopefully potential ? Yes, I, I, I think if I could, if I could slightly widen it in my answer Chair, if I may? And deal with the issue actually on the Economic Development Committee budget, because er, I mean in a sense, Economic Development Committee hasn't always played the game, you never know when you're being asked to identify target reductions by an authority, they have found those target reductions, so have the Planning Committee, so have Trading Standards. I mean, in essence it's the small committees at the end of the day which actually find the target and the larger committees at the beginning of the list which don't find them. Now, I know a sum of money of nearly twenty thousand may not seem a lot of money in total, it's not a lot of money in terms of, it can be quite a large sum in terms of doing things with economic development. In nineteen ninety two, three, er, we made er, we made a four percent reduction in economic development, a, a, about erm, about fifty thousand pounds. In nineteen ninety three, four we made a seventy one thousand reduction in economic development, and this year we're proposing to make a fifty thousand,there're actually cuts I think, that any committee of any council has made for the last three years. Erm, and I think Economic Development are actually contributing very fairly to the problems which are facing the County Council. Er, those members Chair, that were actually at the, at the consultation meeting with, with Industry and Commerce last week, actually heard the business representatives in Shropshire saying that the County Council does not spend enough on economic development. It actually should spend more, because it's community, it's helping to create the wealth of the county in the future, and that wealth of the county is what will pay for public services in the future. So there was, there's a lot of sections of the community out, out there in terms of the business community, who have actually indicated that the County Council should be spending more in terms of economic development not less, and they criticized the Commission in terms of identifying some of the reductions which they have made erm, as part of this year's budget alone. But the final thing that happened, if I could draw the point,Chair, is that in the, in the report on the budget strategy ninety four, five, the Policy and Resources Committee on Friday, paragraph thirty five says no provision has been made for the Council's contributions into the European objective five B programme, much of this will be, but some hundred and twenty five thousand pounds of revenue spending per annum is likely to be, is likely to required to match European and other partners' contributions . Now of that hundred and twenty five thousand revenue spending which would be coming out of County Council to match what is likely to happen in the five B programme, most of that, most of that is on economic development activities, now the kind of way we can find that money without going to the authorities and asking for growth funding, because this Committee has not asked for any and that is not common in all the committees in the Council, is actually by finding it out of things like our monies, and other projects, actually funding it yourself as a Committee, funding the ability to draw in European money into Shropshire. Now if you take away er, another lump of money including carry forwards, you really do reduce your own ability to be able to pay to take advantage of the window of opportunity we now have to actually put European money into the county. I mean, it's a double cost whatever you take away, it's likely to cost twice as much because the Europeans will not put in the other half of the money. Is this the point where we, whether Dominic should be making contributions, you know,to give you an example. I don't know Well, Chair, erm, most of my money is under the Resources Management sub-committee, erm, that has been very thoroughly examined, I think the Resources P A G have agreed with me, on the other P A G, and John has written that on to search for saving what I would say, over and above the call of duty. He's done extremely well, and he has a number of reports and examined every possible area. The P A G resources, P A G met on Friday, and they found even further savings in the request to keep . Er, they've taken more carry forwards, in my department and the other central departments, er, they've taken more from building maintenance. So further reductions have been found. All my staffing costs for Smallwood are in that budget, and therefore I can promise Chair, that it would be extremely well examined. May I just point out to members that er, we are making, Smallwood are making a very considerable contribution this time. There is a twelve percent reduction in maintenance, partly because we sold some holdings, partly a cut in the service, it is a, it is a, it's a, it's a legal requirement to maintain the whole thing, under the terms of the agreement, and I'm also, because of the change in our , dropping our, a land agent, now that's a reduction of thirty three percent in the management of the estates, so I really am doing my best and resources quite rightly have held my noose in order to ensure that I do. Any further comment? Only to support Bruce in what he said Mr Chairman, that it is absolutely essential that we do keep some money after to take advantage of five B. I think you mentioned earlier on in the meeting that some authorities haven't taken advantage of European money and we don't want to fall into that trap. Absolutely, yes. It is worth just noting about it, totting up what we've voted to spend, Some of which we voted against There's a total of fifty eight thousand two hund hundred and eighty so far That we've actually voted to spend at this meeting Er, I'm sorry I didn't quite get I think we voted to spend fifty eight thousand two hundred and eighty pounds, at this Committee meeting so far. It's a pity in a way that we didn't have this discussion before, because I do think it's important and I think parties these days, goodness knows what we're matching is to, should be a bit and they want more, sort of less than putting in less fifty percent. Is that saying in another way that perhaps we should push this over to consideration onto the P A G, there aren't any meetings today, but there will be the V A T I suppose. Might have a committee, Chairman, Yes, yes, the onus You've got several new elements in which John 's recommended that unnecessarily ignore the situation. Do we need a P A G though? Can we not reach conclusions today which I sense has some possibility of consensus? It really does come down to, I don't know, I mean, every year we play it very honestly and very straight, and we push him in a position where next year, if there is a next year, I think the last time that we played it straight we got clobbered, so let's pay a little bit less, and keep a bit back for when they come round a second time round. Last year was erm, an additional twenty thousand pounds at the last moment, chickenfeed for the big committees, that's the annoying thing, but what particularly annoys me, and I have to say this, I'll express it is the knowledge that what can be a phenomenal deprivation to this Committee, goes very, very, very little towards solving the major problems that this county faces, it doesn't have a tremendous impact. And yet the impact on us is considerable, and I'm seriously wondering whether the major spending committees ought not to look again at the budgets that they're erm, and I've discussed this with , and obviously education is the big problem, but er, I'm not convinced that erm, the sums of money which we're being asked to pay out, not be taken from the education budget without too dra drastic an effect on the school. Keith. Chair, we have through this, what we've actually s what you're actually saying there, because I, I happen to be of the view that when you ask for identification of five percent across all the committees and then you start to take that quite happily from the smaller spend committee, then clearly you're in a position where you have to address the er, question, do we really want to provide this service at all, and that would be tragic in the case of economic development, because it's so vital to the erm, economic development of the county as a whole, and so, yes, there, I would suggest that there's clearly the need to be a corporate view, and a corporate er, er, will to actually put up resources at your disposal, er, er, especially since five B wasn't actually, although it was it hadn't actually been granted, so it was a bit of an unknown quantity when perhaps the first P A G erm, sat and deliberated. So clearly now, the, there's some merit in looking afresh at it in the light of five B, being able to match the kind of funding that's available there. The funding allowed. Could we not agree today to ask the appropriate committee, whether it be Policy and Resources, the Resources Management of Regional Council, that when they're examining this question of the carry forwards, that they themselves review the impact that this will have on, on the benefits of five B for this County? Now, that's a positive thing. Chairman, can I just venture to s to suggest that the Policy Panel will be the next move surely, Dave, yourself and the chief officers will be doing some formal presentation there and that clearly we need to take the strength from the vote in the Co in this Committee, to support what you've, what you've just said. Yes, Policy Panel and Advisory Panel Well yes indeed, but it covers the influence I, I would totally support the move that you're suggesting Mr Chairman, if we are asked to provide another one percent or whatever can be done, erm, I would suggest that the obvious way to get that money would be to offer them the ten thousand that we agreed to spend this morning. Mhm, I like, on West Mid on West Midland's body, rather than on county bodies, that's not, Yes, not quite what I suggested, but it is a point Mr Chairman, I'm sure it would be made, but I have, that I have made . Five B status would not of course been allowed if this Committee been sitting. This is the first time And yet I think it's the English Commission that abolished the English loans. Five B status is going to bring in two to three million a year over the next five years, the total cost of running the scheme is one point three million pounds, in effect we're a net contributor And have been for years And have been for years, because that doesn't take into account the money that is made when, when you know, when, when, sort of development that we have, we have run from home. Indeed, Valley is one. Yes, I mean it's er, sort of I think it's, our feelings are quite strong about this, in this contest that we're having with the Town Hall, that er, having exposed the five percent in the first place, we have had particular innovation about five B, being articulated as well. We are not subject at this juncture, to identify any further exposures, but that, I mean, that's what we're saying isn't it? Yes, it's not Are we content that that goes forward or, I mean, I don't blame you for, having your little piece about the earlier things, but they really aren't particularly that issue that we're discussion are they? We're happy with that as a way forward? Right, the question of will crop up later on, you know if you haven't just seen the paper. Anything else you want to raise on this matter? Chair, what will, what will happen is that er, there're, there are meetings planned for the Policy Panel on the twenty fourth and twenty fifth of January which will hear the views of all the committees in response to, to the request for P and R, that, that would then be translated into a final proposal for the budget cuts, which will go to the meeting of the Policy and Resources in February. And, my guess is from, from what is being said, is that the Committee will be, the Policy Panel will see this budget book that, with all that entails, and will hear that, although if you look on page three, there are still carry forwards in hand, that they of thirty thousand, er, the Policy Panel will be told that you, you've already thought of ways of spending er, I mean there's thirty eight thousand in total that we've talked about today, well erm, of, of that erm, fifty eight grant that erm, thirty eight of it is revenue, the other twenty thousand relates to the capital project of Centre. Erm, they'll take that into account, if the potential value of thirty thousand but, will state that, that there is really this erm, problem about how to much five B, erm, contributions. Let me put it another way, if we lived in a magic world, and weren't having things like essays and package deals together, and any officer was being asked to forecast the money that would be needed for the sensible and, and virile implementation of five B, would you arrive at a figure of about thirty thousand pounds or not? Now, I'm not an accountant Bob, but you'd need way in excess of thirty thousand Well income revenue of hundred and twenty five thousand a year to manage the potential for getting in on the partners plan. And if that goes into partnership schemes, it probably could be, it could produce three or four times as much money actually in production. So we should be asking the other committees to look after their carry forwards, to give some of their carry forwards to us, to fund five B. And that's the logic of the issue, but it won't work that one, but at least we'll hang on to what we've got, I hope. I think the other problem of course, Chair, with using carry forwards is that that just is a, a one year solution Absolutely that you've then got to deal with the extent to which you've used the ninety four, five, against the five, six one. So it's not one that really, really is a long-term solution. Yes, Erm, the, the only other item on, on the budget book at the, that I particularly want to draw members' attention to, is, are the pink funds, which are . Er, here the Policy and Resources Committee also consider that only brought on capital which again issue guidelines which will be reviewed, at the end of January for a final erm, proposal in February. And those pro the, the guidelines would, if accepted, enable schemes two and three to continue, on the basis that the capital receipts from the sale of the are earmarked for this sort of investments, and that these in their turn will generate a flow of capital receipts which can be ploughed back for the benefit of the to the totality of County Council's capital programme. So that was the, the philosophy behind that particular proposal, that where you've got development works, you take them out of the budget, and the bidding process, and try and get a rolling programme of expenditure and receipts, so that, if that's approved that would deal with two and three. On four, there was a proposal to establish a two hundred and fifty thousand pound contingency capital sum, against which bids could be made for schemes that would bring down action grant, and I would've su thought that scheme number four would be a bid against that two hundred and fifty thousand erm, contingency. Now what, what was left was a guideline for economic development other, of sixty five thousand, which happens to be equivalent to pollution prevention schemes at one, but was certainly not earmarked to anything in particular, it was just a guideline that they were thinking of, and I, I think it would be a help to Policy Panel and Policy and Resources Committee, to obtain a response to that non-identified sixty five thousand pound item. This pollution prevention, is this at smallholding? In in indeed Chair, yes. Do you want to comment on it? It's, it's a r it's an ongoing programme where they have sixty five thousand in, into er, deal with small problems, problems of a capital nature, but the far fixed er, man is pollution prevention, which is basically a legal requirement to stop effluent going into the stream and the like. We don't spend it unless we have to, we seek to persuade the tenants to contribute towards it, indeed even if we contribute, we get a rent back on it. So we do our best with that. But with the sales of that are going on, there are needs to move tenants around and make alterations to boundaries and buildings, as we split up holdings, so I would say Chair, it's essential that we have something in the kitty to do this work, I mean, it's obviously far exceeded by the capital receipts that the revue is generating. Well does that help you? Well I think I'm, covered around the heating out, you ain't going to get anything out of the juice in the pollution prevention basically. I don't think we, we can. Well, what I think Chair, all, all that you can say to the Policy Panel then is, they take their recommendation on to I do have a seat. Thank you. What can I do for you today? Oh yes. I clinic on this blood test, We did some blood tests, that's right. We did. That's right, because you had sugar in your wee and we thought we really must have a look at what we've got, your fasting blood sugar was absolutely fine, so that looks normal. Had you had your breakfast that morning? Yeah, erm Good. spot of, of er when? For the blood test you mean? Yeah. Oh yeah, no I had So you'd had a big breakfast and it's still normal which implies you're going to be fine, now what we really need to do is keep an eye, if it looks like you keep leaking sugar out, Mhm. we may have to do what's called a glucose tolerance test. Right. I hope not, it's a real hassle to do, so Mm. erm er and it involves going to the lab and sitting around for about a couple of hours while they feed you a bit of sugar and then take some blood tests every half hour. But, but we've done er a completely normal random sample and that should be fine. So if it settles down, and you don't have any more next time,keep an eye on you as we normally do every few Well we'll be seeing you fairly soon, won't we? We'll be seeing you in another two weeks anyway, won't we? Yeah. Two weeks, yeah. Okay. Well we'll have a chat about what you're like then, Okay. nice fresh sample of wee, not the first wee of the morning, No. okay? But a nice fresh sample. Okay. Okay. Have you got a bottle? I have yes, thanks. You've got your bottle? Yes Yes I have. make sure you wash it out. And then we'll see if, take things from there, is that okay? That's fine, thanks Great. great news, thanks Okay very much. and everything else Yes, I'm a bit bum but er Well you're going to get bigger I'm afraid. I've finished work, now so Oh right. Okay. Right then, Right, very much. see you. Bye. Bye. Come in. Hello. Well, what can I do for this wife today? Aye. Well. I'm a lot better than the last time you saw me. Feeling better, that's Aye. good. Are you your pain disappeared? It was er blood pressure. Mhm. It was for my blood pressure. pain round the side that's all disappeared as well? No, it's not really, it's er it comes and goes, but it's not as bad as it was. Easing off? Aye. Right. Come on then, show us your muscles. I only had a few wee tablets that pump the vein Is that right? Aye. Oh. I got up to go to the toilet but they er must have been too quick for me,. . given them often do that. Now, stretch your arm out up. Here we go. This is a, that's feeling quite good. A hundred and sixty. That's good. A hundred and sixty over ninety. Doing fine. You said it . Aye. You said it . that place out there. Aye. That'll be better next week when you as well. But his back is alright now? Aye. But er no, I would just keep on exactly the way you're doing, I wouldn't change anything at all. Don't change anything at all. Er what about your, your stomach bottle, now, are you needing? Oh, that Gaviscone aye I take that sometimes cos Aye. there's a wee bairn been in the, in the, in the , my daughter was staying in , and I had the other two. Aha. That's all you need. Aye. That's all you need when you've got high blood, high blood pressure, is two youngsters. Two youngsters in the house is Two battling, two battling youngsters. Aye. I don't think two youngsters ever get together without a battle. Aye. Don't think. There we are, that'll see that right, we'll see you in about a couple of months again, Mrs . Okay then. Okay, right, Cheerio. Cheerio now. Yes your is cancelled about er twenty thirty stop. yeah, outbound In or outbound? In or out? Well, in that case we'll forget it. I've got the inbound one over there Yeah unless they're referring to tomorrow's?there's a crossed line somewhere He's coming from Moscow tomorrow Mm he's changed his tomorrow to Moscow I'll go get the er, programme, get that er, for tomorrow, Okay, such as it is. Right, done that, check the kettle two four now, the wind is ten knots,one zero kilometers,three thousand, temperature eight. one zero two zero currently on the heading of one zero, one eight maintaining Yes,you turn right to the two one zero, clear two thousand feet altitude, to one eight twin zero, two zero. No, no just keep going Hello Hello, seven miles,strong there, two four, Victor, Delta, Michael Continue approach,radar, when it picks bursts cue position in get transferred radio beeps that keep jam , to land, and two obstructions, Will they ring us with that tomorrow morning? If you know where to look you'll see it Victor, Delta, Michael, is established Okay,one zero, two zero,, two four eight feet Oh, God, I've lost half my one zero, one zero lost one circuit of the runway line It looks all there to me. Yeah, they are now, but they're on ten percent Ah,I've never heard of you I was actually reading off it six over to Romeo, Delta, Mike mark final Victor, Delta, Mike, getting on runway two four, the wind's two one zero degrees at twelve knots Victor, Delta Mike, thanks The British National Corpus, sounds like forensic doesn't it detail? Are these for tomorrow, Keith, are they these strips already done? Yeah Where's the air traffic pen gone? Oh, I've got two, I'm greedy particular green one, like that G B Fan, till he was scrubbed, that was supposed an outbound, wasn't it? Mm What do I hear a please, but don't come again Two one zero eight, ten knots, Thank you Hello, Sharon. Tomorrow's programme. G B Fan, we've got it coming in from Stuttgart at eight twenty. Where's, where is the aeroplane at the moment, do you know? Well that's what I felt, but then we had that outbound planned, which was cancelled In a minute, if you've got a minute, er, twenty from Munich Yes, so that if he's coming at twenty hundred tonight, he can't be Victor, Delta, Mike, locate left at the end. Proceed to open So G B Fan inbound from Munich tonight is scrubbed? Yeah, maybe, maybe they got the, the, the oh, eight twenties, and the twenty twenties er confused there yes, if, have you Let's just have a look Yes, that's okay, it's just that originally you see, we had an outbound tonight as well mhm, yes okay I think we can pick up the pieces from there. It seems to make a fair amount of sense. I'll just get these things to you. Okay well I won't be keeping the programme, so I'll probably give it back to you in a couple of minutes. Okay bye. Yes, eight twenty, it was eight twenty tomorrow, not tonight, so Next one should be in ten minutes. Whereabouts have you been to on your travels, to take recordings, what sort of places have you been to? photography, I personally talking to people about jobs Mhm quite a lot of other ones,er, other people have done, people making speeches, Mhm tape recordings, recordings of the whole union's A G M. Very interesting, thank you. And they just send tapes to you, you know, they don't? Oh, they do, yeah. No, I ju I just, I was just thinking, a lot of these things if you, if you are actually recording interviews you're gonna get a very stilted, Yeah, well Yeah pass the message? something just approaching from the south two thousand feet one zero one niner, and now turning eastbound er, via to pick up the M twenty five clockwise. And er services. used rates as well Zero, zero, one niner These are obviously the ones that don't fly anyway Hello seven three one eight, no Roger's off duty at the moment it's Chris here erm, he should be, hang on I'll just have to look at the watch roster and check up on precisely what his movements are, erm just look through tomorrow and I can find the right page in the roster here, er, two thir yeah, he'll be on tower, so he'll be in first thing tomorrow from about seven, seven o'clock onwards. Okay then? Well, we, we just sort of muddle along from day to day week to week, nobody tells us anything, we just have a guess and usually the guesses are wrong. Don't know well, I mean, yeah, the basically factory's closed. Erm, they've demolished all the north side, you know what used to be the dynamics and that's all gone, it's gonna become, you know, it's not very, that's becoming a, well, in the process of becoming a business park, but I mean, mean well, I mean, it, it, it's all executive erm, and you know business stuff and on the surface, you know, we're still reasonably busy with, with that sort of thing, but erm, no that, they have, the only one four six we see now is just on the company shuttle just you know until they complete the close down of the factory, they shuttle them up to Woodford, er, er, and back every day. But that really won't last long much after the erm, well we don't know, I er, nobody really knows, I mean, British Aerospace has fragmented into all of these property groups and Rover and everybody's got fingers in the pie and we're not, we're sort of caught half way between short-term aims to make a quick profit from trying to get Shell in you know and that sort of thing, but I mean, we just need to talk about, nobody really knows what the long-term policy of the main British Aerospace Board is. Whether to you know sort of try and pick up the guys who are getting thrown out of Heathrow and make a long-term go of it or whether in the long term, em, they want to flog it off for gravel and you know mining it for gravel and sending it for houses and you know, that sort of thing. Erm, we get fed all sorts of information from various levels in and rumours from outside, not just the milkman, you know Golf, Romeo, Alpha, Alpha, Romeo Alpha Romeo about er, ten minutes to land if possible Yeah, yeah what time do you want to go? He won't know any more either Er, if we can make it one six nine O, with just er, No problem,starting, temperature is plus eight,one zero, one nine one zero, one nine want to speak to Roger was that control, They said er, he is Who's he? He's the chief, whatever they call it, the C A title is for changing to one three two seven I thought that was erm another chap's name It may be, but you know, they've got several levels of management, one's the manager of air traffic services another one's the chief executive officer Hello Hello, London, er, Golf, Romeo, double Alpha Romeo, on a Hendon departure, please, Okay hold the line right which was the one? Golf, Romeo, double Alpha, Romeo, on a Hendon departure five, four, one, one,seven six,frequency for that erm, one, one, nine, seven, seven Heading five, five, four, one, one, one, one, nine, seven, seven, through loop, thank you. Thank you, bye, bye What's Dublin these days, is it Delta, Whisky? Dublin is the I D Yeah, course. They're er, obviously gathering information for a big push then Yeah, There's a lot of gaps on this tape to edit Whoever's got to do the transcription Hello,, ah, I bet it's something I've just written down, isn't it? Yeah, come on then yes, yeah, I've just that bit, from Luton, What's the signal? the weather Right to the wind is er, two three zero degrees at ten knots, visibility is greater than one zero kilometers,three thousand feet, temperature eight, D L H, one zero, one niner Okay Thank you,altitude two thousand feet, signal You can go and have a look at the radar if you want? Could Do you know if Maria's down there, excuse me? This plane, hello radar, ten miles, most eight zero, six one Continue approach Roger Yeah, bottom of the stairs, straight through that open sliding door, straight ahead of you, well,ju just, to your right Chris, I might take the down Oh, you're gonna take that Oh, well not now, yes to look across at a group wh who would know a cynical opportunity if it hit them in the face. But then again, maybe I'm wrong, for is this not the same Labour Group which now proclaims to be our cultural guardians, who, my Lord Mayor, only last year, sought, in that most bohemian of ways, to dispose of all of civic treasures in one giant car boot sale. I would say that that is a prime example of cynical opportunism at its most cynical and most opportune. What utter and unbelievable nonsense it is for the Labour Group to claim that the Conservative Group have sought to exploit the needs of people with disabilities in order to gain political advantage. Let me remind the cynics opposite that yours is the only Group on this Council which has voted against our proposals on disability. It says a great deal about our attitude to the role of the opposition that you regard everything that they do as being a little more than attempt to seek a political advantage. Both ourselves and the Liberals share a concern for the people with disabilities. We want to see employers, whether it be the Council or private companies, taking an active interest in helping solve the practical difficulties associated with disability. That is why we, with the support of the Liberals, put forward our own adaptation of the perfect Percent for Art policy. There is nothing ins intrinsically long with the concept of Percent for Art, but we saw an opportunity to extend that concept to make sure that the real need of real people in real communities were properly reflected in any scheme. What is the point of having Van Goch hanging in a public building if people with disabilities are not provided with proper access facilities. hear hear Do the Labour Group want to promote that kind of cultural apartheid? No, I am afraid, Lord Mayor, that the Conservative Group would not stoop so low as to exploit disability for mere political advantage. Let me remind the members opposite of a Conservative Group policy document on disability that was produced in 1987. That document clearly stated our concern about the need for vigilance in respect of the physical environment in order to ensure necessary access facilities for buildings, transport, leisure and other facilities. Far from seeking to gain political advantage, all that my Group have tried to do is to continue with a long-held policy on disability. It is time that members opposite stopped this petty vindictiveness and sought to join with both ourselves and the Liberals in seeking to press for real progress in recognising the specific requirement of people with disabilities. And all too often in the past disability as an issue has been neglected, while the Council pursued other parts of its Equal Opportunities policy. Today we have lost a marvellous opportunity put that right. Councillor Lord Mayor. I've never heard so much rubbish in my life and what I'm gonna try and do is speak to the policy of Percent for Art. There're just one or two minor announcements. The Percent for Art policy originated from people. It was presented to Parliament by a Secretary of State for Environment, Trade and Industry, Health, Education and Science etcetera, in September 1990. So the Government supports Percent for Art and I would have hoped that it would have at least done a little bit of er work little bit of homework and I would have hoped that those members that went to the Percent for Art seminar would have stood up and said something positive about what it's about. Councillor Community Environmental Services Committee are responsible for the large number of partnerships, social partnerships, with big business that the Labour Group are bringing to and the reason the Percent for Art was on that Committee was to link in to that er those those partnerships' proposals. It was the Tories that hijacked Percent for Art and brought the issue of disability about. hear hear and what they did, and you were there, and you must've been listening, what they did, percent for people, they moved it up to Policy and Resources, Policy and Resources percent for people came around, Councillor spoke. He'd forgotten about the booklet that he put forward on building regulations, the forward that he'd put forward, so what he was asking to do was already Council policy that he initiated but forgot about. I think it's typical on the things that Councillor does. He p he pretends to forget about things that he's done in the past, but the people of don't forget what you've done in the past. hear hear our Lord Mayor. The real truth, not elitist. You're not a philistine. Cynical opportunities is far more appropriate. Think about it. Percent for Art. You know has culture no therapeutic value, no medical value? Can we imagine living in a world without music. And some are saying that that's already happening. But would it be so absurd for those who sought refuge in tranquilisers or pep pills to try instead a course of Beethoven, Mozart or Chopin? Is it so fantastic to imagine a future in which doctors w doctors will prescribe a visit to the art gallery for people for people with depression? Today it's fashionable to be green. Parties compete for the greenest mantle. No Party is so red or so blue they would not be green. Conferences solemnly debate the environment but the environment is not just about the North Pole or the ozone layer. It's about what's happening in our everyday lives, down the street, round the corner, including, and especially including civic art and architecture which, above all, could relate to the real lives of the community. Cities have to have green belts but they should also have green hearts. Percentage for Art and the people behind it believe it's time th the time has come for art to go on the offensive. Art is green. It's irr relevance relevance to everyday people must be shown in people's surroundings, combining the convenience of the new with the conservation of the best of the old. Good old fashioned Local Authority planning. Accessible, accountable and aesthetically desirable. Culture, we believe,art is an important ingredient in the quality of life. And a Percent for Art policy is only a small step towards that. And we're only seeking up to one percent of development costs. So let's have none of the crocodile tears about big business. The problems of big business are not about Percent for Art, they're about your Government's interest rate policies, about unemployment, so don't come crying crocodile tears for big business. Because they actually welcome Percent for Art. At the seminar we had a business who wanted to set up a fund to provide the artistic and cultural er facilities for these developments. So, Percent for Art is about people. It's been adopted by a large number of Authorities, of which is gonna be one of them I hope. It's a true partnership, a true partnership between the private and public sector which we know about and you could never achieve. East district is rich in culture because of the mult multi-cultural population that we've got. We've got the cultural attractions already, the Museum and other artistic attractions. We believe Percent for Art will be successful with th with the people of . It's not worthy, Councillor to try and link trivial trivial politics to score points, to score points, to score points, to score points to score points at the attacks on people with disabilities, in the trivial way that you did because you couldn't remember the policy. Percent for Art is a part of our long term promotion to make a city of culture, which we will do with the support of people. So stop playing politics cos you don't know how to do it. Councillor My Lord Mayor, under standing order A fifteen B, I move the vote now be put. everybody to understand that we're actually voting on this procedure of motions, not er not that the er question be now put so so The Lord Mayor No Councillor ? Yes Councillor ? Yes Councillor ? Yes Councillor ? Yes Councillor ? No Councillor ? Yes Councillor ? Yes Councillor ? No Councillor ? Yes Councillor ? Yes Councillor ? No Councillor ? No Councillor ? Yes Councillor ? Yes Councillor ? No Councillor ? Councillor ? No Councillor ? No Councillor ? Yes Councillor ? Yes Councillor ? Yes Councillor ? No Councillor ? Yes Councillor ? No Councillor ? Councillor ? Councillor ? No Councillor ? Yes Councillor ? Yes Councillor ? No Councillor ? No Councillor ? Yes Councillor ? Yes Councillor ? No Councillor ? Councillor ? Yes Councillor ? Yes Councillor ? No Councillor ? Yes Councillor ? No Councillor ? Yes Councillor ? No Councillor ? No Councillor ? Yes Councillor ? Yes Councillor ? Yes Councillor ? Councillor er ? No Councillor ? Yes Councillor ? No Councillor ? Yes Councillor ? Yes Councillor ? Yes Councillor ? Yes Councillor ? No Councillor ? No Councillor ? No Councillor ? No Councillor Mrs ? No Councillor ? No Councillor ? Yes Councillor ? Yes Councillor ? Yes Councillor ? Yes Councillor ? Yes Councillor ? No Councillor ? Yes Councillor ? No Councillor ? Councillor ? Yes Councillor ? Yes Councillor ? No Councillor ? No Councillor ? No Councillor ? Councillor ? Yes Councillor ? Yes Councillor ? Yes Councillor ? Yes Councillor ? Yes Councillor Mrs ? No Councillor ? No Councillor ? Yes Councillor ? No Councillor er ? No Councillor ? Yes Councillor ? Yes Councillor ? No Councillor ? Yes Councillor ? Yes Two That is clearly carried. Fifty one votes for, thirty six against. We will, I'm now going to vote on the two er items that've been discussed but before so doing, before so doing, may I bi be permitted to congratulate those new members of Council who have made, I think, excellent Now to item eleven, the Percentage for Art policy. Those in favour of amendment D moved by Councillor ? Thank you. Oh Time wasting pure time wasting is this The Lord Mayor No Councillor ? No Councillor ? No Councillor ? No Councillor ? No Councillor ? Yes Councillor ? No Councillor ? Councillor ? Yes Councillor ? No Councillor ? No Councillor ? Yes Councillor ? Yes Councillor ? No Councillor Councillor ? No Councillor ? Yes Councillor ? No Councillor ? No Councillor ? Yes Councillor ? No Councillor ? Councillor ? No Councillor Mrs ? Yes Councillor ? No Councillor ? Yes Councillor ? No Councillor ? Councillor ? Yes Councillor ? No Councillor ? No Councillor ? Yes Councillor ? Yes Councillor ? Yes Councillor ? No Councillor ? Yes Councillor ? No Councillor ? No Councillor ? No Councillor ? Yes Councillor ? Yes Councillor Co Councillor ? Councillor ? Councillor ? Yes Councillor ? Yes Right Councillor ? No Councillor ? Yes Councillor ? Yes Councillor ? No Councillor ? No Councillor ? No Councillor er ? Councillor Mrs ? Yes Councillor ? No Councillor ? Yes Councillor ? No Councillor ? No Councillor ? No Councillor ? No Councillor ? Yes Councillor Mrs ? Yes Councillor ? Yes Councillor ? Yes Councillor Mrs ? Councillor ? Yes Councillor ? No Councillor ? No Councillor ? No Councillor ? No Councillor ? Yes Councillor ? No Councillor ? Councillor ? No Councillor ? No Councillor ? No Councillor ? Yes Councillor ? Yes Councillor ? Yes Councillor ? No Councillor ? No Councillor ? No Councillor ? No Councillor ? No Councillor ? No Councillor Mrs ? Yes Councillor ? Yes Councillor ? No Councillor ? Yes Councillor er ? Yes Councillor ? No Councillor ? No Councillor ? Yes Councillor ? No Councillor ? No two four six eight ten The amendment was lost Hurray Ah, shame Fifty one against, thirty six for. Will tho we'll then move on to those in favour of the substantive motion please show fifty one thirty six fifty one in favour Fi that is carried, fifty one in favour count the votes against You want to vote, do you? Right oh. Those against. You're just wasting time. Go on. Fifty one, and the vote's dropped to thirty four now. Item si Item sixteen, people with disabilities. Those in favour of the substantive motion please show yes Go on, it's fifty one, go on. Fifty one. Fifty one Lord Mayor. Th those who re really want to vote against That's carried, fifty one thirty six. Well, it's carried, fifty one, it's gone up to thirty six now. The next i The next item is er item twelve, social partnership. Call upon Councillor to move the recommendation of the Community Environment Services Committee, together with amendment E standing in his name. I move Lord Mayor Seconder? Seconded Lord Mayor Call upon Councillor to move amendment F standing in her name I so move Lord Mayor Seconded? Seconded Lord Mayor Ok My Lord Mayor under standing order A fifteen B I move the vote now be put Those in favour that the vote be now put? can't can't do it because Those against? That is carried, fifty one thirty six against. Move on to item thirteen. I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm sorry to rush the thing, I'm trying to rush the thing. Those in favour of the amendment moved by Councillor ? thirty six Twenty six? thirty six Those against? fifty one thirty six That that's lost, fifty one to thirty six. Now will those in favour of the s substantive motion please show? Which which I remember incorporates the amendment moved by By Councillor Those against? Thirty six That is carried, fifty one thirty four. Item thirteen car parking. In accordance with standing order A twelve C enforced at the time, Councillor m notice of motion on car parking was referred to the Cou by the Council on the twenty third of April 1991 to the Community and Environment Services Committee. The report of the Committee is set out in committee document B referred to on the agenda. At the same time Cou at the same Council meeting two amendments to the motion were formally moved by ex Councillor and Councillor respectively, and seconded and we were also submitted to the Committee. Call upon Councillor to move amendment G standing in his name. I move Lord Mayor Is there a seconder? Seconded Lord Mayor I call upon Councillor to move amendment H standing in his name I move Lord Mayor Is there a seconder Seconded Lord Mayor Mhm mhm Councillor . My Lord Mayor, under standing order A fifteen B I move the vote now be put. All those in favour the vote be now put? Fifty Those against? undermined by those who see them as an alternative channel for immigration, the many spoiling it for the few yet again. Lord Mayor it is clear that this country cannot sustain the present numbers of applicants seeking asylum. We simply cannot allow immigration control to become optional. Nor must we let the institution of asylum be undermined by abuse. Thank you Lord Mayor Lord Mayor under standing orders A fifteen B I move the vote now be put. Seconded My Lord. Those in favour? forty seven Mhm? Eh? Is there forty seven? just walking back forty eight Against carried forty eight to thirty two That's carried, forty eight to thirty two. So we move to those in favour of amendment M moved by Councillor please show? Those against Mhm? that's thirty two fifty That is lost, thirty two to fifty. Those in favour of the substantive motion please show fifty one Those against? carried fifty one to thirty That's carried, fifty one to thirty Mhm? Now, now then, there's still some business to be transacted. I don't think we're going to be able to get it through. Now it's entirely in your hands. We can continue and try and finish the business before we have tea or we can decided to have tea. Those in favour of breaking for tea now, please show Those against We well it's a democratic decision, is that. I find it rather a surprising one but good. The next one, the next item is the City Challenge Initiative. Call upon Councillor to move the motion together with amendment O standing in his name. So moved Lord Mayor Is there a seconder? Call upon Councillor or Councillor then to move the amendment N standing in his name. Lord Mayor Is there a seconder? In accordance with standing order A thirteen C this motion will stand referred to the Policy and Resources Committee for consideration and report unless the Council decide to deal with it at this meeting. What are the Council's wishes S those in favour that we m that we deal with it at this meeting? Yes, that's clearly carried, so we'll My Lord Mayor, under standing order A fifteen B I move the the vote now be put. Seconded my Lord Mayor Those in favour? Those against? forty seven thirty two That's carried, forty seven to thirty two. Those in favour of the amendment moved by Councillor ? Those against? That is carried, forty seven thirty one and becomes a substantive motion. Those in favour of the substantive motion please show Those against? forty nine thirty one Carried, forty nine thirty one. Next item is the Lord Mayor's civic car. I call upon Councillor to move the vote. Moved Lord Mayor Seconded? Seconded Lord Mayor Call upon Councillor to move amendment F, no P, sorry. Seconder? Seconded Lord Mayor In accordance with standing orders A thirteen C, this motion will stand referred to Policy and Resources Committee for consideration and report unless the Council decide to deal with it at this meeting. What are the Council's wishes? All those in favour? My Lord Mayor under standing order A fifteen B, I move the vote now be put. Seconded Lord Mayor Those in favour? Those against? lost, sorry, that's carried, forty nine thirty two Carried, forty nine thirty two. So, those in favour of amendment P moved by Councillor ? Those against? That's lost, thirty two to forty eight. So w Mhm? So, those in favour of the substantive motion please show That's Councillor motion It's Councillor it's Councillor motion. I think vote for that vote against Those those against? lost thirty two to fifty That's lost, thirty two to fifty The financial provision of the Council. Call upon Councillor to move the motion I move Lord Mayor Seconded? Call upon Councillor er to move amendment Q. I move Lord Mayor Seconded? In accordance, er, call upon Councillor to move amendment R standing in her name. Is there, is there a seconder? In accordance with standing order a thirteen C this motion will stand referred to the Policy and Resources Committee for consideration and report unless the Council decide to deal with it at this meeting. What are the Council's wishes? Lord Mayor Those in favour? Clearly carried. Councillor to keep to keep the the members of Council from their collective tea at this time of the evening, but my group feels it is necessary to put forward the people of the acute financial situation of this Council, a situation which is deteriorating rapidly, and began to deteriorate in May last year, May 1990. In the final accounts to p to Policy and Resources for 1990 ninety one, there is a massive two point four million pounds overspent in the education budget. We had previously only be warned to expect an overspend of one and a half million. Is this why, we ask ourselves, the Local Education Authority, out of one hundred and thirty teachers it promised extra to employ during this current financial year, there are only sixty three visible new teachers, and sixty seven of them are alas imaginary? And will the six percent, which the Director of Education has been instructed to save across all central budgets, be enough to cover this years' education overspend? And will the Chairman of Education awake from his beauty sleep to understand either of those questions? Now what is the explanation for the discrepancy in the budgetary machinery? Is it, perhaps, that he controlling group always knew that they would not be able to achieve the original levels of spend but, like true socialists, did not much care? In referring to the non-collection rates of community charge a few weeks ago, Councillor said, the outstanding debt will cripple essential services and I dread to think what effect it will have on our schools, social services and the state of the streets. Sadly, the own reaction, his own reaction then was to make a speech to threaten to put more people on to the streets. This mounting crisis is due to ignoring the illegal actions of residents who will happily use Council services but refuse to pay for their Council services. That is, refusing to pay their community charge. A massive twelve point four million pounds is now owed by the non-payer to the law abiding citizens of Bradford. Indeed, perhaps the most sensible thing that that model of of consistency,Ki Neil Kinnock, has said this year was, law makers must not must not be law breakers. And he said this, interestingly enough, when referring to the M P,, who's currently enjoying Her Majesty's hospitality. And what of those, my Lord Mayor, who, although not so full of principle as to refuse payment themselves, actually encourage others to break the law? And what of Mister and Mister ? And what indeed Councillor is missing of members of the Labour Group? When is Councillor going to condemn their actions? And is Councillor k does Councillor intend to pay his debts this year? Lord Mayor, I'll tell you a small story. At one of our constituency surgeries, a retired widow came in to see us concerning the seventeen pounds extra which she would have to pay extra er to cover the other non-payments. She announced her intention to deduct this er this amount from the total and to send the balance. She was told that it was the law to pay the full amount and she must pay it in full, and her answer was that it was the law last year that everyone should pay their own bills, and what happened to them? Nothing happened to them, and that is the way institutions and local democracy will be de-valued. It's clear, Lord Mayor, that the Labour Group have their own priorities. One of the priorities is a million pounds that's been spent on community consultation structure and about a quarter of a million on a marketing and public relations unit. I guess that the people of will realise at the end of this year that the consultation and communication and public relations of this Authority are impeccable, that the quality of messages sent and received is superb and that the volume of such messages is vast. But will all of it empty a single bin? Will it feed a pensioner? Will it comfort a single child? We're very concerned Lord Mayor about the City Hall pay awards. We're concerned that the that the Local Authorities of this land, including should have received a demand of twelve a twelve percent minimum for A P T and C, and a minimum wage of nine thousand three hundred and thirty, a level much higher than the Labour Party's own national minimum wage, and indeed higher than the T U C's definition. National minimum wage, of which has said, the employment consequences would be little short of disastrous and the society backs estimates that up to eight hundred thousand jobs could be destroyed by the minimum wage and of the A E U described the minimum wage as nonsense and said he was flatly opposed to it's introduction in the private sector. The result, the result of such claims will be a rush to restore differentials and a general inflation in Local Authorities, with no increase in value of services for the community and I ask that the Labour Party should distance itself from this very mis-guided proposal for national wage proposals, minimum national wage proposals. If this Council means what it says about devolution and customer er customer contracts, it must begin to see that the over-riding need for local divisional pay determination and sub-divisional pay determination that relates reward to the volume, value and standard of service delivered. And, I say to the Chief Officers of this Authority, that their that their proposed that their proposed claim of fourteen percent is nothing short of disgraceful. As, as Councillor would have said, and I would remind members of Council that I believe that the Chief Officers of this Council still have pay related to their performance and I am sure that all members, not least the controlling group, will take will take note of that. And we do hope that the Chief Officers of this Authority will show the commendable st restraint they normally have. A very small proportion, my Lord Mayor, of of what affects the City's financial position, is your own car, Sir, which I am delighted to see has been plugged into the controlling group's revenue expenditure this year. It's a relatively modest amount, nine thousand pounds a year. We are delighted to endorse the decision, delighted to endorse the decision for your car to be er to be provided in proper state and proper style. We are delighted that the Council wishes wishes you wishes you to drive around in black. We would we would like to see the controlling group showing equal commitment to keeping all of us in the black. hear hear In conclusion, my Lord Member, we all remember we all remember the windfall, the supposed windfall, that Councillor said had been produced by the good housekeeping of the joint bodies of . It was, of course, nothing of the sort. It was, that distribution was to prevent a certain Labour Authority in being charge capped. It was not money that the joint bodies did not require or need. It was money that the five leaders withdrew and the results have been cuts that threaten the closure of household waste sites in and in . Is , my Lord Mayor, going to have to find extra money to fi to to fi to fund those sites independently. If not, and if they close, will boast at least three things. It will have three priceless reminders of . It will have Councillor , it will have an overspent and out of control revenue budget and it will have streets and parks strewn with abandoned, rotting,hou household rubbish Councillor Thank you my Lord Mayor. It is interesting, isn't it, that er I knew the road to Damascus was long, but I didn't realise it were that long cos on the second of July the Tories moved an amendment at P and R criticising us for spending money on the Lord Mayor's car, but I'm glad to see that you've come back to the fold. I think what is interesting, though, is that if you look at the two amendments which are on the audit paper, one deals with speculation er proposed by the Tories. What I intend to deal with is the record as it stands because anybody who's going to argue a case against the decline of of any kind of system has to put the facts as they are, not as they would wish them to be, and I would argue that the legacy, before we can do that, the legacy which we inherited as a controlling group back in 1990, is now a matter of record I would accept. But because of the nature, because of the nature of our amendment, we do need to remind the opposition that er prior to that date was facing major social economic problems as vital services in the local economy fell victim to the consequences of planning thirty million out of the budget in order to bring in a low poll tax. That's where we began. At that particular time, er, quite right, faced with the failing national economy, and it's got worse than it was then, and an increase in poverty in , this controlling group produced its plan for 1990 ninety one and in it's redirection packages which are now part of our agenda on Council we d we made to pledges, one was to change the nature of Council and the other was to redirect sources on the process of need and we put four point three million on redirection in the first year, four point seven the second year. We had no new monies during last year and consequently we have no growth. Now, what's important is the philosophical advice on which those packages came from. Ours were led on a policy led planning process which was driven by the needs of , which are clearly identified in the an anti poverty strategy which is designed to protect the services, the jobs, to regenerate the local economy and make a better place to live and for children to grow up in. Area panels which have been so bitterly criticised, and neighbourhood forums, have since confirmed the wisdom of that process and the rejection of a Tory budget process, driven not by the needs of the community but the need to deliver the firm Thatcherite message which is still there, set a poll tax as low as possible and then work your priorities backwards irrespective of the consequences. I submit, my Lord Mayor, that any decline in the Council's finances, is due primarily to the Tories originally looking for electoral success. The electorate rejected them and they put that before the quality services and the social responsibility that we have as Councillors, not just to ourselves and our wards, but to the whole district and the community as Councillor continually reminds us. There are two other documents you have to consider in the monetary and evaluation exercise to see how successful we were in 1990 ninety one, one is called a partnership for quality and the other is called fairer shares, a programme towards an anti strategy. Both these documents came before this Council in July 1990. What they were based on, and I I have to say it though, that since poverty in all its forms has proved an intractable enemy to us, and given the limited Council resources that were available, plus the Government, which has consistently attacked Local Authorities and made financial constraints upon us almost impossible to operate, we have we recognise that to analyse the job in hand, first of all we needed an accurate picture of need, we needed to share the commitment with the workforce of Council and all those in partnership of consultation. We needed imagination, flair and courage and, above all, we needed a political will to be shared by the controlling group. Now, if you use any financial monitor that we have, and bearing in mind the size of the task, any critical analysis will reveal that this Council, under Labour, can definitely say that it's met the challenge and it's certainly started to make the change. However, I wouldn't want to simply sit back on our achievement, because there's no room for complacency. Some of the facts that's been put forward today, I would remind that you that the financial rumblings of the D E at the moment about poll tax levels for this year, standing spending assessments, the increased capping powers that Mister Heseltine will bring forward will make it extremely difficult in this year. But the asinine policies that were brought through in the th er in the Thatcher era they still are here with us, no matter how they try to get shut of them, the poll tax which has been referred to by Councillor is confusion at its best. It's the worst thing that's ever come from any political Party and all associated problems live on, and all we have at the moment is one statement after the other from the Ministers which blame the very people that it attacks. It blames the poor, it blames the unemployed, it blames industry and it blames commerce for the mess that we're in and never says anything about itself. I want to just scotch the myth that has been put forward by Councillor about the poll tax cos did this at P and R and I will reiterate what the leader said then and I and and quite clearly and soundly, that the Labour Party, both nationally and locally, and this Labour Group do not condone a policy of non-payment either as a principle or as a tactic. Is that clear? Have you got that? Thank you. Now then, and I think that it's important, well let me let me just deal with the minor diversion that in s those people who choose not to pay, that is a personal choice, and they will take the consequences of their actions. However, what the poll tax has revealed unequivocally is that there are poverty traps in this city entirely due to that particular tax and those people who are in financial difficulty we do understand the problem they have and we will continue to help. Now, the evidence is very clear. I'll produce the evidence for you. That's not a worry. Now if you really wanted to help, and you were concerned about that. But let me give you two Right. Okay Mrs erm, can you tell me how old you were when you started your first job? Er fourteen. And what was that doing? Er tailoring, at a tailor's shop in Stapleford. In Stapleford? Yes. And what was that like? Well,i it wasn't too bad at all, they the tailor's shop actually, it was er a tailor and his wife, who had built up a business over the years, in Stapleford, and it was very well patronized by Stapleford people. But, at fourteen, my job was to er I had to fetch the coal and the sticks, to light the er stove that held the irons, and er they they were er d I I Like I had to go to the coalhouse which was down fourteen steps, the steps were wooden ones, outside the upper floor, where we worked. And so I had to drag the coal scuttle up there, I was faced with that, and chop the sticks, which I'd never done before. And so that, it made me a tougher than I should have been. And also the irons were twenty two pound, they were long, flat arrangements, called goose irons. And er the all day that stove had to be kept, in summer and winter, because there was no other means of heating the irons. And a bath was kept, a zinc bath, at the side of the stove and the tailors, there were two tailors, and four other pe machinists, girls an and women like. And erm erm the tailors would come when they wanted to do any pressing of seams, or anything, and they would take the goose iron, and put it in on of the, what we call press cloths, that we pressed the And then they would douse it in the bucket of water, to get it the right heat, to start, so a cloud of steam went up. The tailors sat cross-legged, on benches, and er the machinists, there were four machines on one big bench,th they went from one belt. And in the other room, there were two rooms, and the other room had a buttonhole machine, which was quite modern in those days, not many firms had a buttonhole machine. And I was there until I was about eighteen. I wasn't a bound apprentice, as such, I didn't have to er it meant that I didn't have to stay with them. Er they wouldn't have you as a bound apprentice because unfortunately, although the wages were so low when you was being an apprentice, three and six a year, then six and six year, and then er I think, thirteen shilling, the third year. Now that was a year, but, er because you wasn't a bound apprentice, when trade fell off in the winter, and it fell off drastically in the winter, and then built up for Easter, when everyone in those days bought new clothes. Er it erm er the result was that you was really working flat out all the summer, and then as the winter advanced, you got very short of work, and they put us on the dole, for half a week. We worked a wee half a week and were on the dole, Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday we'd be on the dole, then work Thursday, Friday and Saturday morning. Well, we should have knocked off work at about twelve on the Saturday, and instead of that, being a shop, they were taking orders and we had to do all the alterations as they came in, and bought the clothes. And the result was we were often working till half past three without any lunch at all. And we used to get very worked up about it, and then we went down to fetch our wages, and the older ones were always going to complain, but this erm tt er son of the people, he used to look at the factory clock opposite, and it would be half past three, and he'd said, Right, I'll pay you till three o'clock, and we'll make it right next week. Next week came,and we never got that half hour, so it must have added up a lot, all throughout the year. And er we bore great resentment about this, that was the only thing, that I can honestly say, we bore any resentment about. Mm, I can imagine. Otherwise, it was er They were nice people, and it was quite nice. And where did you work after that? Well at about er when I was about eighteen, I erm I decided I'd had enough of this er this business of three days on the three days on, and three off, in the winter, and it was about October time and I could see another winter of it. And er also down at Long Eaton Labour Exchange, which we walked to, or went on the train for tuppence, we had to er fetch our money on Friday night. A very nice er was with the the juveniles, as t we were called, but a very terrible, she really was a terrible civil civil servant. That was for the older girls, and they frightened us to death with tales of what this Fanny-Annie, as they said called her, had er had said to them, and how rude she was, terrible. She really was, and I sort of thought, Oh, I can't go, I can't face up to going there. So er there was a job advertised in the erm, well it was the journal, in those days, and er I went after it, in Nottingham. It was er by the park, that's near Snenton Market, it has Bendigo's grave in it,I I don't quite Victoria Park, I think it is. And I ha I wasn't very familiar with Nottingham, then, but I went and erm we crossed this park, and it was at a big house, there, tailors were always in rather out of the way places, and er he'd just got fixed up. So, I was very disappointed, and on the way back to catch the bus on Parliament Street, I passed erm a shop called Jowers which was next to the Corner Pin, and er er although I was very nervous, I went in and ask if they wanted a tailoress. They were very surprised, because usually they advertised for them, but they went up and asked the tailors if they wanted anyone, and then a dear old man,a er named Mr said he like a trouser finisher. And he worked on his own on these trousers, you see? Each man then, there was about, there'd be about four or five men there, all had a number of girls working for them, and er they had to pay the wages out of what they earned. You see? They it was all piece work, there. Unlike Gillens a fixed rate for the week, it was then piece work. But our rate was fixed, the girls's rate We worked for a fixed rate. But the men had to balance it up by, what they called chits,tha that came on every garment and how much er money they were getting for it. And then, of course, had to take their own wages out, as well . Well, conditions were about the same, the goose irons, and the the floors that got cotton and all erm bits of material on, and everything. The conditions were about the same, the wor people were very, very nice. And er this erm tt As I say this old man, he he he'd didn't like coming in too soon in the morning, and er a I could see he was finding it a bit difficult to find both our wages out of his money, although I got there to time and worked. And er when the winter came, it was the same old story, everyone was short of work again. But erm, they didn't seem to go on the dole, they just seemed short of work and short of money, you see? And he told me that if I He came from out Keyworth way, and he said If you can better yourself, Dorothy, do so. So he said I I don't want to keep you, and I I could see what struggle it was for him to come a er so often in the bad weather, that er I I started the same idea. I didn't want to come back to Stapleford, so I st because they were very offended because I left. No-one had ever left Gillens before, and they were very upset about it . And then I erm I went to er I went to R I shall I start on the scheme, going around, to the shops, and I got a job on Long Row. And there, the tailor, he'd been trained in the war, and he he only had one la leg, and he seemed very nice, but er he told me to start on the Monday and then I got a letter. You see, that was the same system, the piece work, to say there was no trade at all. There'd been some snow, and erm er he wasn't well, and could I if I cared I could look for a work elsewhere, as i it was just impossible for him to pay wages, you see? So as the shop, you see, didn't pay the wages, they had to just pay it on the things that were done. And so then I So I was very, very disappointed and I went to a shop then called Dixon-Parkers which was a bigger shop and er a very well-known shop. And I went in there, and asked for their tailoring department and er er I found out after that I was just dead lucky, one of their trouser finishers was going to er leave, she was getting married, and she was leaving and erm although you didn't have to leave then, she she she sort of had got to leave, so er I just fell lucky, there. And this Mr was so taken aback, by me going in and asking for a job, and they'd always advertised in the paper before, that he said, Well, she must want work if she's gone after it. And er if I could do the job, I could have it. So I started there and they put me on a month's trial and I dithered about about this month, whether I was good enough, and they'd forgotten all about it, by the end of month,trial . And er that too was at the top of the building, and that was in, oh a series, of little rooms, although the shop was big and beautiful, down below. The higher you went, the less beautiful it got. And conditions were still at just about the same, but it had been an old hotel, so all the rooms at the top were left just as the bedrooms would have been, so you went up and down steps, and along corridors. You could easily get lost, at first, until you got used to it. Or you went up the fire escape, which had fifty two steps, to go up. And you was in these top rooms with the the stoves, but erm they had gas stoves, under the irons. And er, of course,th the trouble was that i the tailoring was erm You threw all your cottons on the floor, you threw all your bits of cloth on the floor, and er you had your youngest girl sweeping it up. But nobody ever scrubbed the floors, and they were bare boards, so they got, you know, in a pretty er far worse condition than factories. But erm Did they have any form of inspection, like they did in factories ? Erm they do have They did have factory inspectors, but they always informed them when they came, and always bought a suit, or a costume, if they were women. There were the odd women inspectors. And so, they were far too f They got far things far too reduced in price, to have said much about it , it was the accepted world, then. I So conditions were quite bad, in fact? Conditions were poor, really, in that respect. But er, it was just the thing, they thought inevitable in a tailor's workroom. Whereas er in erm a factory, I believe, they would have had to have er the rooms whitewashed, colourwashed or whitewashed at certain times, we weren't bound up with any regulations, then. You see? There was no regulations, as far a I know, we never had a thing painted or done at all, in any of the places I worked at. They were just really attic rooms, that we used. Mm. How long did you work at that place for, then ? Ah well they put me on the top rate of pay, which was quite good, thirty five shilling a week. What year would this be? Ah, oh, about thirty, thirty one. tt And er it was very good, the money was, we were very busy in the summer, and we could earn overtime. The same thing applied to winter, we were very short of work, but instead of you ever being on the dole again, er you went in at ten o'clock in the morning. So er before and you had two half days a week, you'd have Thursday and Saturday, you see? T er but you you wasn't putting the hours in, so you didn't get the money. And then, you see, then the erm er the bus fare, you got as reduced rate, to go in early, so I used to go in at the usu about from the last bus I could go in cheap, and then walk to Trent Bridge, and back, it was very nice. . But the people were grand, the people I worked with, and you could talk all the while. Yeah. While you worked, er er conversation was good, and the people were grand people. So it made up for any other, er, you know. The only thing is, I didn't really want to be a tailoress, I wanted to be a nurse,but hadn't much choice, then . And having l your mother and father left er, your parents had left you with such low money in the early stages you couldn't In any case you couldn't My friend was a nurse, but you'd got to have a special background. You'd got to be someone, to be a nurse, in those days. And they had some terrible times, I can tell you. But she'd got to have her family backing, I mean er, in fact she'd got to really be middle class, at least, to Mm. be a nurse then. So er I I stayed on in tailoring, and probably got on better, because they were lovely people. Er when you left that tailoring job, why did you leave, in the end? Er because I was ill, er well, ill. I'd got a troublesome cough developed, and now looking back through the years, er it would have been a sort of hay-feverish condition that I I have been a bit bothered with. I it's er never held me up that much, but er it obviously it affected er me throat, the erm It's the bits off the new cloth, you see? You've always got the new cloth, and er and I think the heat, in the summer, with the stoves going and everything, contributed to it. And er I got a questionable spot on the lung and had to go to the Ransom Sanatorium. Er or I wouldn't have left, I would have stayed on, I liked the people. They were marvellous to me, when I did go, there. And erm tt and then I was there twenty two weeks, as a patient, and er the then the only cure was rest and good food, and fresh air. And fresh air we got, it was all open to the weather, I once remember putting an umbrella up, because it snowed on the bed. And we, Every morning, when we had to strip-wash in the bath er in the bowl-room, the frost was on the ground. It was at Ransom Sanatorium, it was beautiful round there, but very isolated. And once you'd recovered, you left there, did you? Well I stayed on as an orderly because they said that I could erm I could marry because er I wasn't erm classed as erm tt Er I wouldn't pass it on to me husband, so I could marry, provided I I prevented having children for er five years, that you had to see the Doctor until The medical Doctor at Nottingham, until he pronounced you clear, you see? And er so that's er I stopped on six months, being an orderly, because I couldn't go back into tailoring, obviously, because er it might have aggravated it all again. But you were working as an orderly? That was before you got married, was it ? Yes. Six months before I got married. I stayed on as an orderly, up there. I never worked harder in me life. . Oh, the little tt Oh the little maids, however they stuck it I shall never know. They worked from eight in the morning, till nearly eight at night, with just an hour's dinner, and half an hour's tea. And an hour off, a day. And if they didn't get up when the Night Sister switched the lights on, they were on the Matron's mat, and they lost that hour. The conditions er er y you know,i it's like a another world. And yet, they were cheerful, and good, and stuck it, didn't they, Jack? Mhm. Mm. Yes. Rea really marvellous, and the nurses too. It was th it was erm, a lot of the nurses were there for two years before they went to get th into the General Hospital training. They could do two years, between sixteen and eighteen, you see? A in that at that sort of a place, they could do it, and they er came over from Ireland, a lot of them, and and er did the two years. But it was so cold for them, but they did it. And so isolated, some of them ran away, and you know,i it really was. But the sisters were very devoted to it, and the Doctor, and the matrons. It's amazing, really. Mm. The conditions, today, to then. Yeah. Yet people were happy and cheerful, and just as dedicated. They g seven seven shilling a week we g What is that? It's a microphone. Yeah. Don't touch that bit. So you're gonna record people talking to you? What? So you're gonna record people talking to you? It's recording here. So,wh who are you gonna give it to? What? university or something. Doing a study on university it's crap. Don't you. Oh shut up. Now you can go no, it's uni university in the country and They up here? Yeah. Are you doing it now? Yeah. Do this level thing does so when you go la I'm gonna record hello A bit, bit concerned about my, my, my state of mentality. Yeah, yeah Call you What? okey dokey crap Bugger. Bugger. Name, first name bogie occupation like none. housemaster Allegedly No, Age seventy plus. Allegedly Oh look, seems different to what I was doing. What were you doing? Well I Oh cool this is different wicked. what were you doing? Er I was actually er doing conversations with all these tapes, So you don't need to put your posh voice on this tape? Hey, hey, hey. I hope this really university Bergen. Burgundy? Burgundy. Bergen. Bergen Bergen Bergen yeah, I heard it was really shit. Yeah I was told by Mr it was like one of the worst Didn't that didn't Mr say that it was really crap Don't know, I can't understand it I can't Yeah,I get you. The problem is. What? that is a babe. She's getting married to erm Nigel Kennedy or somebody, Kennedy's front page, look. Nigel Kennedy? Oh, Kennedy President? Yeah. Yeah. Didn't know that. I want some coffee Coffee, I need coffee. Chocolate, hot chocolate. What's your honest opinion Crap No, I like some of it, honestly I like some of it, but some of it's really shit, but it's sort of movement really. If you've got a bad head just weird isn't it. I mean sometimes you expect him to laugh and he doesn't laugh like he says something funny and I say something funny back to him, but he doesn't laugh. Pardon me. Yeah Such a fat waddles along I bet it's quite good actually. You changed your R S project? That's on the first question. How many questions do you have to do? Five. Five questions? How many pages have you done?look at the spacing out I mean you've probably got about three words. Oh shut up what are you on about three words per line? How l how long you had to do that? Hello. You've got a week and a bit to do four questions. Five. Five questions. I bet he'll be spending all weekend, this weekend doing it. Yeah. really interesting offer Where? Oh yeah Oh God It said special features a beach. Of a beach, a weighing machine actually. probably got about two centimetres Beach is really good cos it's like all the beach is like a tiled area where you sit down. And the painted palm trees on a On a wall. I know but they're all the same those places, there all get bored with them in about five minutes. Have you recorded it all? I'm still cold. If it is, if it is Saturday, we won't seriously play rugby It depends really pissed or frozen. We will You're telling me you wanna run around in a pair of shorts He's not playing anyway. I'm not playing. Why not? Why? Dunno. Been dropped. Crap. No, it's Who's taken your place, there's Chris Smith at full-back on the wing Yeah. That's all right I suppose. missing them. Oh cos you've gotta have a good in kicking Actually he didn he didn't kick too badly the other day. Oh yeah, and last night Jimmy kicked it right into the middle of the field and that. He didn he didn't kick it, he wasn't that bad it's just Jimmy No, he wasn't that bad but he, he just tried a bit like I know. really simple gets steep as well coffee. Is your weakness. Yeah, I don't mind. What did you get? Four As, four Bs and two Cs. I got four As, four Bs a C and a D. Who did you get the As off? I bet you I got Physics, Chemistry, English Geog Geography. See I told you man he gets an A with every woman teacher that he has. Ev crook Oh, that is sick. I might get one A from really She said I was doing really well. She said I was doing well until I fucked off to Yeah, it was really good. I was doing really well and I'm really You're disgusting tests every one else is getting fifty per cent Geog ninety-eight Forty per cent 's enough Here Jim Seven per cent Nick Pratt gets more than me. So does Nick Pratt Excuse me, excuse me who came first in the Chemistry exam? Could have been on that. Fat bastard. So you're gonna just be a reserve for the A. Mhm I wanna go to because then I get a and it takes me about half an hour to get home. Yeah, well go, go down to the station. If that if that mucks up then tough. Why? will have to ring my mum and we will probably told like and my mum's working on Saturday I think. Can't you just get a train into London? Well that costs more, that costs about five quid and I won't have No, its three-fifty. Yeah, three-fifty it's erm it's more than we would have if we weren't playing. Yeah, three-fifty gets through to London. Then I've gotta another I've gotta pay another quid or something underground London. What, three pounds? Yeah, three-fifty. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah Yeah, yeah, I've got that, sorry, yeah. Well I can't do it now, I've got to pay something like six-ninety. You've gotta pay two quid, two pound no three pounds. Three ten on the tubes yeah. It's only one-thirty for me. I know, exactly, you're so sad. Jock skint. Well it's not as if you've like come into loads of money when you suddenly turn sixteen is it? I think you should be about eighteen. Well they just more money that's all. People like me I can get away with it, I get No, I was just getting charged full fares when I was like thirteen. What's this on? Erm the buses. Why? Cos I looked, I looked about over sixteen. Some drivers I did, some drivers believe me. Yeah, I came I went up about a year ago, I remember when I went down to Hertford in the yeah, I said I, I forgot to say what ticket and they automatically give you an adult don't they? Yeah, yeah, you save yeah, I know. And I say can I go to Hertford please and they didn't ask me how old I was, they just like the next thing I knew I was whacked out this six hundred quid ticket. I know, and you don't feel like arguing, cos there's like a massive queue behind you. Yeah and then you got any identity please. identity. seriously by the time yeah, you get a bus out of here, say it's cancelled you leave at twelve o'clock. Yeah. You have to wait for a tr well first of all you have to we'll the miss yeah, at twelve twenty-eight or whatever Yeah. Well how are you gonna get are you gonna get a taxi or you're gonna get a bus down into Hertford. Bus, that's w What I do is I try and do a I just get a bus erm There must be going, I try and go late and get a lift from someone to Hertford. Yeah. What I do is I just get a bus at Hertford and walk to Hertford and normally it doesn't take long it only takes about ten minutes Really, you gotta walk all the way along the dual carriageway don't you? Yeah, it's easy that's what I do all the time. Do you? Takes five minutes. Ten minutes maximum. Yeah, how you getting back, you get the train back? Dunno. Because I, what train did you get? Oh shit, I'm not getting a train back I'm gonna come back by car. Really, cos what time is the train that you got? Whatever you do you're gonna have to get back at you're gonna have to start leaving London yeah. Yeah. Start leaving about sixish. Six. Five. I'm telling you it's really bad news. You get you have to get back obviously Yeah. Okay. You've got okay you've got something like a six I don't even know what time the train comes they change at different times, the one I've caught was at five past nine train. Five past nine? Nine yeah, came up caught that just about getting in there Yeah. Okay so got on that train, thinking it would go straight to Hertford and it didn't. Yeah. So I had to wait fo at Enfield Chase for another bus and the bus from Enfield Chase yeah you go along all these piddley little so it's from erm ten it took me it took takes an hour-and-a-half on the bus. From Enfield Chase. Enfield Chase to Hertford North. So that's an hour-and-a-half around an hour-an-a-half and ** a-half around an hour-and-a-half and blown, yeah. How? Cos it's in side roads, so that's an hour-and-a-half okay, you could we waiting for your train for about an hour so that's two-and-a-half hours Yeah. And then you can be erm actually the train journey to Enfield Chase takes about another half-an-hour, so that's two hours at least and as well. So I have to go something like a five past seven train or something? Five past seven, eight thirty, nine yeah. So I'm gonna get I'm gonna be at that thing by about seven o'clock if I get on the train by I doubt I very much doubt it I'm getting the train. Yeah, cos I might, I might see you at the station if you get the train. I, I don't think I will be. better not be not getting back here at ten o'clock. Cos I've gotta go back otherwise Cos the juniors, remember the juniors can't on terrace. Yeah. So all the teams must be away. Think about it. Yeah, got forty five and sixty, sixty What about forty five, I mean they're gonna they're not gonna go on they're not gonna on twenty to win junior forty five are crap. Forty five is like the Bs. Cs. Where where's,fifteen, thirty, oh yeah, cos A B C here is A B C away. See, forty five Two, no it's two years, so you've got it t Yeah I know, it's two years, but it's still the seating you can't have seating can you. Fifteen and the thirty are like the A teams Yeah okay, so if if Forty five and sixty are like B teams if the fifteen thirty place on well if the thirty are away then it goes Oh yeah, I suppose. I suppose Why doesn't he turn up to any practices? Erm who? Chris Smith. He's just a lazy bastard that's why. Can't be bothered basically. Doesn't he get done in? What? Why doesn't any of the masters have a go? Dunno, I don't think anyone notices that he's gone. Yeah they must have known Chris Smith wasn't there. Wasn't he there? I dunno. He's in school isn't he? Yeah, he couldn't be bothered to play rugby at the beginning, I mean nobody missed about four weeks. It's forced. Yeah, Dougie told Yeah, Jock, got a really exciting day tomorrow. day. Good Oh. Yeah. Pretty cool, not. Oh, I should be doing work but I can't. You what? Should be doing work, but I can't. What do you mean can't? Can't be bothered? Can't be bothered yeah, basically. Jock, no-one can be bothered to work, but they've just gotta do it. I know, but sometimes I just get down and do it, but other times I just can't if you know what I mean. No, I don't know what you mean. Shut up, bloody not nice. I'm talking What do you er think of the Rough, what the little one? Yeah. She's all right I suppose. you like the little little one hey. Ooh Shut up She's American. blown a fuse, and it's on tape Julian shut up, just cos you know just cos you Cos I like what? Cos you fancy the bloody Viking. The Viking no way Jock, you know the Viking that's your sister that is. Shut up That's your girlfriend that is. When's the last time you got a letter from Jamie? Erm couple of days ago. How often do you write? Erm once a week sometimes that depends when I feel like it. happily. What? You go there you'll play rugby and erm Shut up that's a point I won't be knackered at all. You won't be knackered at all I mean bloody killed playing freezing conditions. Yeah, but I this will be the first match I haven't played this season. So? I wouldn't mind, I mean I don't mind if Chris cos I know he's better than me, but Christ Smith's crap. Yeah, he was he's erm full-back for the and erm he was pretty crap. The only reason was cos erm he was quick. No and also is No, cos John Collier could have been in there, John, John played erm two matches when Chris was injured. No, what about and they were both Yeah,that that's why Nicholson That's why I play. chest infection and bloody done his knee in or something. That's why I was in the team for after half term. Never actually played at I thought we never will. You really crap yourself beforehand, but once you play you think great,the best. Jock. What? You're sad. shut up. I'm not doing any more work, I can't be bothered. Nor can I, I don't know what to do. Just sad, I've got about eight projects. The thing is, oh yeah what do you think of those women that came? What scholarship I don't think they're that bad. Yeah, everyone was going on at how rough they are, I mean you can't as I've said before you can't exactly expect them to be super models. I know. And anyway if they were super models who would be able to go out with one so sad. I know, I'd rather have someone who was Reasonable Reasonably good looking and a good laugh. Yeah, cos then you know you've gotta chance of going out rather than or something then you haven't got a chance at all. Sad. You've gotta And considering that they're all supposed to be erm all the Yeah. sad and scholarships and stuff. not too bad. Actually I saw so many women saw quite a few women up there. Not bad. I reckon we're gonna have a good year this year next year. Year what? Have a good year. Cos I mean we had two crap years hadn't we, well. Two crap years diabolical. Now this year might be all right at the end. At the end? already. What? We could get to cos no-one actually talks about very sad isn't it. Yeah, well we never get a chance do we. No, when do we do it? I think the saddest people gotta be Lawrence. Why? Trying to pull those two pretty women. Yeah, playing rug playing rugby. Playing rugby Rugby on the afro turf every day. he's a laugh. Who? John . On the, on the he was on the and it was such a laugh it really was, good laugh. What are you doing? taken all the paper off. what's funny Jim You recording? Yeah. comes in and goes er Shut up, shut up And he goes erm I suppose you know he goes, he goes No, Melissa, what have I done, shit what have I done I thought, oh my God, what have I done. made her pregnant or something. serious not really and Alistair goes oh yeah, it could do and I went er yeah er he goes why and I went why and he goes oh well, she ran on the . Melissa well that was ages ago. And she goes and he goes erm sounded, sounded like a good sounded like quite a nice girl really. Quite a big girl really. Is that what she said. And he goes How can you sound like a big girl I, I just didn't stay to ask to be quite honest I was shell shocked. pissed himself. Why When is it? Tonight. phoning about the disco. I can't talk to her. Why? I don't wanna talk to her. Why?you get get snogged at a disco. When's the next disco. second first fourteenth. Y y yeah honest December December Yeah. Yeah probably be another P A C St Albans disco. All we talk about is swear words Every other word is a swear word. People who are listening to this have missed something They're all Norwegian. Oh God, I almost crapped myself I thought I was going to be working till twelve I've now got no prep to do. Yeah I'll do that. No you'll do it, you've gotta do it properly. Painting a in half-an-hour and I haven't got any history chemistry. I haven't done any work. I'm just talking to this stupid microphone. and you've got a friend. oh no, they're gonna think we're rigging it now the way Jimmy goes, Jimmy goes understand why you always take the piss out of me for my voice Yeah he does doesn't he When I'm round Jimmy I right Kevin. I know yeah I noticed that in Alistair as well. Is he going mad, he must be going mad. Well on one Monday I went home, I can't remember what I said, I just came out with this really I and I said it really I wasn't actually putting it on either, I said like that and and I keep saying yeah after each, each sentence when I'm describing something to my mum like saying last match yeah, we won yeah, six nil yeah, eight nil yeah and it I keep saying yeah, yeah, my mum's going yeah, shut up my mum says I go yeah that's well nice and she goes erm goes well nice I said and I say well and I'm well cool and I keep on saying that I've said it like about so many things when we're at home and she goes, what is this you always saying well with everything. I know, it's like me. around Jimmy more. My parents they always say My mum hates Jimmy because of that. My mum doesn't my mum no, it's like my brother, my brother Jimmy's really nice. Does he? Like yeah, because like about what he did you know he was staying up with and all this and like giving him money and looking after Andrew so he goes for my parents Jimmy's really nice. Well my dad reckons he's really nice anyway. Dunno whether my mum does. No. My parents, my parents hate My mum, my mum and dad hate My mum, my mum keeps saying has settled down yet and I said settle down. Settle down. I would say for you. I would say like a bit myself you know Oh like. You know like this and like that and like Bit like that. And my mum and my my dad starts going like, like, like and they go what you do. You know about You wrote that letter yet? Yeah. By the way just for the tape she's a right fuck. You know you wrote that letter and it said oh, I hope to see you in half term and then, then said I hope not Bollocks. She said that? I hope not, no, he said that, I ha that's bollocks and then what else he wrote he says I love you lots I'm missing you lots. Oh, no yuck all tape listeners is a really fat ugly rough mother fucker. Just remember. Dream of the Norwegian Viking person. It's not very nice. I know, she's so rough I mean she's so fat. I mean Jimmy sang who is it Jim screwed I mean Jim says is fat Fuck she is. Keep fat. She's a bit bit on the Yeah, there's a bit of meat on her No but when she sort of comes out he says Shut up. Claire about up to my waist type of thing. Yeah, she's short and Short, fat stumpy, round, covered in acne. Yuck. Breast, did she have a breast? I didn't really see her, I Did she have a breast? I know she had bad spots. Did she have a breast? Dunno she probably did she had everything else. She had some disease as well. She tried to talk to me a job, but we sort of joked away. She used to she used to she goes erm Yes. It's like this yeah, hang around, meet She's fat. She beats her hairy chest. Yeah So disgusting. Hairy armpits. Hairy everything. Hairy minge. stuck You'd lose your hands. That's sick, she has problems going Oh shut up. Disgusting. She quite rough. Rough. Well what about What about She's got some death wish. I reckon Marie-Anne's the nicest girl he's ever fancied. He's got, he's got, he's got a death wish on He must be takes the piss and I go. He goes shut up, you taking the piss out of me. I don't take the piss out of him he goes turns all silent, he goes like Him and him and do you remember that? Just think, someone that you fancy supposed to be someone in your dreams and stuff like that Yeah. Well yeah Someone you really, really like, I mean how can you really, really like ? Paul does Oh yes Paul they were sitting like at the end of the corner there's been Oh, no alcove and there was one in the one far corner and sitting on the corner together, they were holding hands going every so often he hears . But you know, Jimmy said, he said oh just a friend now it's I'm after. Not. Brady's going out with How do you know? But she goes to she goes to Who? He leaves next week. You're joking. My God. Yeah. You told him? Because Alistair, Alistair's known for about four weeks that she's got Cos he knew, cos he knew Has your group finished those sentences? No. Erm. Yes. Pat, has your group finished those sentences? I've finished mine, but I don't know Right. Mark. Yes, what, Would you like to do number one. Er, I put in between the n and s on fisherman's. Yeah. Er, E s, e and s of cottages. Yeah. Er, and one between searchlights t and s. T and s of searchlights, the n, the n and the s of fisherman's, the e and the s of cottage's, and the t and the s of searchlight's. Put your hands up if you got it right. Let that me a lesson to you. Ben, number two. serves you right. Yeah, one between n and s of men's. Shh. One between n and s of men's. And between n and s of children's, and d and s in ward's. Right. N and s and men's, n and s in children's and d and s in wards. Put your hands up if you got that right. Oh dear, it would erm manage to confuse you utterly, Yes, you did, so. Erm, right. Would you like to do number three. Erm, after the s in books, erm, after the s in libraries and after the s in librarians. Yeah, I think it's definitely got to be after the s in books, as it sounds as if there's more than one of them. Libraries is obviously plural so it's got to go after the s. And librarians depends on whether you think there's one or more than one, and it's not clear, in the sense as you say. Did you take hang on, could you do the same with fishermen's, could they not have an apostrophe after the s. No. Fishermen more than one. Men is clearly plural, isn't it. So So what about cottages. Because when the word doesn't end in s, when the plural doesn't end in s, as it doesn't in men, women and children, and sheep. You er, put an apostrophe and then you put an s on. I see. It's when the plural word doesn't end in s. What about cottages. Cottages. Let's see Put an apostrophe after the s, So e apostrophe After the s. Yes. 'Cos there's more than one of them, isn't there. That's what we did, that's what we did. Oh, did I say that was wrong. But you said that was wrong. Oh, sorry, Number one it should be erm, After the s. Yes, after the s, this is obvious, more than one cottage, sorry What about, what about the children's. What's that,plural isn't it. That's apostrophe s. Yes. Yes, Yeah, I'm with you. yes, that's right. Yeah. Erm, right, who'd like to do the last one, Tracey. Erm, both teachers, apostrophe between the r and the s of teachers. Yeah. apostrophe between the d and s of husband. I wouldn't agree. I wouldn't know. I think it's Go on what do you think. I think er, it's apostrophe after the s of classes, after the s in teachers, and after, after the s in husbands and after the s in schools 'cos they're all plural plural. Classes is isn't it. Cla yes, classes yes, isdefinitely plural, isn't it, because the singular is C L A S S And it's e apostrophe. And it's more than one teacher, because it's Helen, Helen hang on. Classes, is a plural word that ends in s, so you put the apostrophe after the s. Yeah. Right Helen, plural word that ends in s. The apostrophe goes after. When the word, the words plural, that does not end in s, and there's just a minority of cases, then it's apostrophe followed by s. Mm Okay. Got it. Right, classes is definitely plural, so it's definitely got to go after the s, and therefore it sounds as if teachers is going to be plural, doesn't it. 'Cos there's more than one. Sounds as if we're talking about more than one teacher. more than one wife, anyway, can you. Hopefully not. Well, hang on a second, we're not talking about putting an apostrophe on wives are we, for goodness sake. No. Because they don't own anything. So let's put an apostrophe on the s of teachers and then husbands is clearly plural because the teachers were plural, and we th , we talking in plurals, so after the s in husbands. With school, erm, it depends on whether you're talking about, were they're both teachers in one school, in which case, if you understood that way, it's the apostrophe before the s, and if you understood it, er, teachers in several schools, then you'd have put to the apostrophe after s. I should think it sounds as if they're both teaching in the same school, myself, Yeah. I I would have put the apostrophe between the l and the s, but erm, I'd be prepared to, I'd be persuaded that it wasn't crystal clear. Okay. Now the two little things in boxes at the bottom, just reiterates what I've said. It's with an apostrophe is an abbreviation for it is, because you never, and I I think those three little rules there only apply only nouns have an apostrophe, pronouns never have an apostrophe and it's only nouns ending in s, have an apostrophe and it's only when they own the thing that follows, except when they, when they don't end with an s, but you know the exception of men's, women's, children's and sheep. Er, are, exceptions. Right, well I didn't expect it to take that long to the apostrophe. Erm, you must be honest about this, er, is anybody feel clearer about these, the apostrophe, than they did half an hour ago. Yes. Would you be kind enough to just raise your hand in the air if you feel a little bit clearer. You can be honest and put your hand in the air if you feel more confused than ever. Stuart does. No But, I I don't really think I could make it any clearer, but you need to, perhaps take it home and go through it again, and think about it and see if you can understand it, you know, in the quiet of your own bedroom, plus is a very useful time to try and learn things. If you turn over. it was heart searching Turn over. This is just, I'm not going to through these exercises, this is an exercise on the apostrophe to show, not possession this time, but that letters have been left out of words. I think you know all this. You you you drop the letter and put the apostrophe where the letter would have been, had you not removed it. So, all that you need to think, to remember things like, don't, is that it's do not, and you've got to put the apostrophe in where the letter's been missed. So if you follow that, it shouldn't, shouldn't cause you a problem. Erm, but the one thing to remember is when your writing a formal essay, in an exam situation, don't use the shortened form. The only time you're likely to be using it, is, if your writing an essay, where you going to use conversation, to make it realistic, people do abbreviate in a conversation, or if you're asked to write in an informal way. So those, the only, the only exceptions. So, generally avoid using contractions in an exam essay, unless you're asked to it in an informal way. Okay, that's the apostrophe. The next sheet is on commas. Commas Right, are you ready for quick gallop through commas. Martin, are you ready Good, people use commas much too often, and some they don't use them at all. But especially when they put them at the end of a sentence where they should be putting a full stop. There are some, however, sorry, there are, comma, however, comma, please note, some situations where commas are necessary if you're going to write clearly. First they are used to show a pause, between parts of a sentence, which makes it for example, when you start off with a subordinate clause, after I'd cashed my Giro comma I went to the shops and bought some food, or, because of the derailment comma all the trains were running late. technical, to think of it technically, it's when your sentence starts with a subordinate clause. When it comes to the end of that subordinate clause, you need a comma to separate it from the main clause, which is then going to follow. Another use of the comma, is on either side of a word or phrase which could be left out of a sentence. For instance, my sister comma who works in a green grocers comma said she saw her with Kim last night. So, the fact that who works in the green grocers is just a bit of additional information, it's not necessary for the the main part of the sentence, you can take it out and it's not going to take, make any difference to the construction or the meaning of the sentence, it's a bit of additional information. Or, you will need comma, amongst other things comma, three bricks and a length of rope. What you have to remember is that you need a pair of commas and not just one. Some words are often used between commas like he comma, too comma, was embarrassed and this one in particularly, please, tomorrow comma, however comma, snows is expected, and don't try to use however as a conjunction, 'cos it isn't. And it will, if you, at the beginning of the sentence, however, it's got a comma after it, before you go on to the rest of the sentence. If you use it in the middle, it's got to have commas both sides of it. Is it the same for therefore. The same thing happens with therefore, and the same thing happens with nevertheless. You also use commas between items in a list. You bought three apples comma, a banana comma, a bicycle pump and a walking stick, and you don't need the comma when you use and. So it's commas between the items on the list, except for the last two where you're using and. Okay. Got it. Now try the sentences and see if you can agree as a group, on where you're putting them, and don't be too influenced by people that might be wrong But I have been up all night comma,too tired, but I was really homesick. really there's one after night, but you don't need after, one after tired, just carry straight on. But it's a normal James, it must be your turn to Since my operation I haven't looked back comma, although maybe because I can't move my leg. Ah. And erm, number three. As I missed the train comma, I decided to catch the next one which was in an hour's time. Has anyone got a comma after one. Yeah. Yeah. I got, oh I sort of like to use two and then cross out the wrong one. Going to write a little note to the examiner, aren't you. Please examiner, please whichever was right. I like that one. Erm, I think I'd be inclined to put a comma after one, the next one, because it's a bit of additional information train, the train in an hour's time. no train Oh yes, as I, as I missed the train comma, I decided to catch the next one comma, Yeah, but wouldn't that make it possible to take that out, and then it wouldn't make sense, 'cos it would say, as I missed the train which went in an hour's time if you put another comma, 'cos if you, if you put two commas you couldn't take it out. Your main sentence,yo the main clause is, I decided to catch the next one. Additional information really, is, as I had missed the train comma, but it's, er, you've got to have a comma after train, because it's following that rule that was given in the top left hand corner, after I cashed my Giro comma, because of the derailment comma, it's it's that rule, it's the application of that rule. Well, I think you need one after After subordinate Do you need one after the next one, 'cos which sticks one, which Well, without getting too technical about it, I think you ought to have a comma after one because in the erm,y you know, the erm, blurb they gave you on the left hand side, that would apply what you've learnt on the left hand side. I see, right. But, ask me another day, when I've got a bit more time. There is a, an occasion when you wouldn't have a comma in front of that relative pronoun. Yeah. It depends whether you can take the information, or whether the information is the essential part and it's a bit of a fine line there, actually. Yes, it is. In number four, erm, I can't see anybody who hasn't done one, so erm, Martin, have the pleasure of doing this last one. first comma, sitting never really understood which means Right. Er, definitely after evidence, and definitely after Right. I'm not going to go through the erm, passage at the bottom, but I'd like you to have a go at it and will go over it on Friday. Hang on, I haven't finished yet. Turn over. Today gallop very quickly through, people often use a comma instead of a full stop. Which is what a lot of still do, Martin included. You use a comma to show a pause in a sentence, but a full stop shows that a sentence has finished. How do you know if you're at the end of a sentence. It's what you've written a a complete idea in itself, and does it have a main verb. If the answer to both questions is yes, then it's a sentence, put a full stop. Okay, look at this one. James. Yesterday, I bought a new video comma, it was great. Is wrong, because the comma is between two sentences. Each, it's not a phrase, it's each clause is a sentence, because it's a complete idea. Yesterday I bought a video. End of idea. Second idea. It was great, and therefore you need a full stop between the two. It's Stuart, instead of using a full stop between the two short sentences, you could use a conjunction to join them together, which would give you one sentence. Yesterday I bought a new video and it was great. Otherwise, you could use a pronoun as a joining word, so you could use a pronoun and use which. Yesterday I bought a new video which was great. Okay. Normally, you would use which to join sentences about things and who or which to join sentences about people. about conjunctions that you looked at on Friday. Okay. Some sentences, quick, quick, quick sort them out, please. Put the full stops in where Martin Please return the cups to the counter full stop. number four. comma yes, Helen, sorry, Helen. There's no point in talking about it full stop. All we do, all we do is argue full stop. Can you put because. Sorry. Can you put because. Because all we do is argue. Yes, it, if you're being simple about it. It just said put full stops where they are needed. Th th the the advancement on the exercise is to make them one sentence by using, yes, you could use a conjunction if you were going to make it into one sentence. Right then, last one, please. Erm. Working in the theatre isn't all fun full stop. A lot of it's hard work. It's Ah. Instead of, instead of using a full stop, you could use a conjunction. There is another possibility that they haven't mentioned because the book hasn't come on to deal with it yet, but you should know what it is. Is it the colon. You could use the semicolon. But what you mustn't use is the comma. Alright. Okay, we'll continue this keep these sheets. Bring them to the next lesson. Thank you very much. . Er, could you tell me where you were born? I was born in , er right in the centre, Street. And when exactly was that? Ah ha, August nineteen twenty four, a long time ago. And er, talking a little bit about your family,w what did your father do for a living? Er, ex regimental sergeant major, spent his life in the army. Whole life in the army, forty years. been every thing. Boer war veteran, great war veteran and er air finished up an air-warden in the last war. And he was retired when you were born ? Retired. Yeah. And so how did you er how did you manage how did the family? Well, he had a pension , Oh, right. pretty good in those days, two pounds a week which helped things out and er although we had a big family of eleven of us, including mum and dad, er contributi contr contributions from them where, well, whatever they could make, a shilling here and a shilling there. But er they grew up and since I'm the youngest, obviously they were earning a little bit of money in some way. And did your father have any jobs at all when he was retired though? The jobs they had? What your father had? Oh yes, father had jobs besides the army, when he finished, yes . Yes. Very up with the county courts, with being a boxer, ex-boxer. So he got the bailiff's job, going around, which was very necessary in those days. And I've got to laugh it . Anyway, he only collected all these things till they got sufficient to auction them off. Yeah. And then they'd have a big auction for a few pounds where Dad used to do the auctioning and since he was a sergeant major one could hear his voice. If he said five shillings he meant five shillings and not four and sixpence. His best times for auctioning though was er when shops went bankrupt, er especially chocolate shops, cos then we had a good time after he'd done because we usually got loads of chocolate which was a luxury.. Erm how many brothers and sisters did you have? I have er six brothers and two sisters. Now talking about your school life, erm how old were you when you started school? I'd think four and a half. And th what school was it, your first school . you went to? It was a school just at the top of the street, School. And what was your first memory of going to school? What what what what did you? What about the teachers, for example? Oh the teachers were very good, they usually greeted you with a big plum or something, if it was the right time of the year, which it usually was. Right time of the year, yes, with a big plum. Sometimes they did things to you though, it was either that or you were frightened to death, I'm not quite sure which.. Yeah. But you never managed to stay there the first day. . Not for long.. Er did you stay at the same school? Stayed there er until the education people obviously decided that the junior schools erm infants schools, sorry, er were going to move in into another area and so I moved up to Lane School, which was possibly half a mile from my home. And there I stayed until the age of nine, probably about nine. And do you have any sort of particular memories about that? About the school that time ? And you see doing th er that er junior the junior school In the earlier junior school we were at the church as well, which was on the next street, St John's Church at Mansfield. And so me brother and I, who was a twin, were put into the choir as probationers, like today's police force, and after twelve months we'd passed all the necessary tests for the vicar and became chororists with the choir and graduated through it. Lots of good times with with the church and the Sunday School. Outings, in fact the choir excelled itself that much we were invited to join many others to Crystal Palace, which which well known place at that time and er it was quite exciting. Didn't start the journey very good like, on the train, trapped me finger in the door. Got a threat from the vicar, You're going back home. . Anyway, off we got to London and er first day at the Southern Hotel. I assume that what it was and then the next day we all gathered at Crystal Palace, rehearsed ready for their Royal Highnesses to er listen to everybody. There was probably about n a hundred choirs there. And how old were you then? Ten, I think, might o Ten year old? Seeing London for the first time, not very impressed,I I liked Crystal Palace but tt. Well, we enjoyed that outing, er we had tea on the roof, which was all glass, never seen anything like it before and I shan't see it again since it got burnt down anyway. But it's a good memory. And then we stayed a few days in London and we went to the Baths and we went to the zoo and we went to all the science, by either the old trams or the first of the buses that Cos they complete with tram-riding and that was rather exciting in London, seeing the all the top hats and people in coats, tails and things. Very nice. Got back safe an safe and sound tt, was able to tell them all school about too, which really must have been an education for those since nobody had left the town, very far, anyway. Except for, perhaps, a half day excursion to Skegness which costs one and threepence and if you'd missed the train they had another one ready for you, not like British Rail today,enterprising . Er how much did it cost to go to London then? It must have cost a lot of money to go for that amount of time? I believe it was three and sixpence, at least for children, and about five shilling for adults, return. And that started at Mansfield which had two stations then, Great Central and the old London, Midland, Scottish, which was one of my delights anyway, engines were, er they were to me. I spent hours watching those What train spotting ? not exactly since I had a paper round which involved Smiths on the station. So they were there for me to see as they came in, etc. I even managed to sneak a ride on the engine, changing at one end to the other, just going out, round and coming back on then. He'd say, Come on laddie, enjoy yourself.. Now er just er coming back to er your Lane School, erm what what about the school dinners,y ? Oh yes, the interesting part there, in those days, was that the majority of the children were in the same boat, we were all poor and er m the Town Council had got this skating ring at Mansfield, roller skating ring, near the Gas Works, where they provided a school meal for all the children that could there during the hour lunch. So it was er hell's pells for three quarters of a mile nearly for your dinner and hell's pells back and I guess time you'd done it you'd have worn it off anyway. . But still it was er one way of getting a good meal, everyday. And of course the same thing applied with clothes and shoes, they always inspected the cleansiness and if your shoes had holes in or anything then once in a while there were new ones came in and y you were fitted out. But where that exactly came from I don't know, the money, I don't know, poor charity possibly. I don't really know, but er they managed to keep us looking nice and clean and tidy er because one respected teachers and elders which, well, I don't think I've ever changed anyway, but today they don't. They they miss out today. And er where did you go to after Lane School? What school did you go to then? Yes, well, owing to the fact that we moved home from Street to Road in , which was roughly just under a mile from town, meant a change of school then. So having settled on Road, moved to Lane which was the nearest school, still in the juniors but by then our age would be nearly eleven, time to move onto a bigger school. And what school did you go to? And then at that time they'd just opened . And so Have you got any we were able to move into school, which was fantastic as a school, being new with quadrangle and different classes for every subject, really enjoyed that. Big gym. W wh ? Enjoyed that too. What subjects did you enjoy most? Art, liked art very much, reading, still a good hobby of mine, er arithmetic, fairly good, stood in good stead to this day that one, don't even need a what-do-you-call-it, tape recorder, but I have one. And a calculator, I have one of those, but I still do most of it from me head, that's the old way. I'm amazed that people can't read and write today but it's true. We had good education and we had good teachers , strict, straight to the point, the work went on the blackboard, you were given so long to do it, close your book and if you didn't do it you never saw the teacher, but you felt his cane on your knuckles and he knew you weren't doing your work, so you did it. It didn't take you long to learn that. Er but if you did your work they were very fair, probably ten minutes before time they would say er Righto , you can go now. So you had ten minutes' free time, a type of reward, if you like, for paying attention and getting on with it. I can't say I was extraordinarily good in the class, but neither was I bad, pretty average between one and ten and usually got a decent report. Now er you mentioned earlier about er about a doing a paper round when you were still at school, did you have any other Oh yes jobs? As I said earlier, yes, I worked at W. H. Smith on the station, well, that involved a paper round starting round about six o'clock in the morning. Well, half fiveish normally, cos because you had to make your own round up, mark the papers and then, say, six o'clock and it lasted possibly three hours, you just in time for you to get to school for probably ten past nine. And one was allowed ten minutes anyways because you had that type of job. The pay for that was sixpence a day, very good money really. . But on a Saturday I had another paper round, from the same people, which involved travelling from to the Sanatorium on Road which is probably two and a half mile, with a cycle, advertising Smiths with the carriers on. And from there to , which was another two mile, all , over the estates towards er , to all the big houses, and then back round again, which took s from six o'clock till you'd probably get back about half past ten. And then er that was that till Saturday evening, especially in the winter, then you went back again for the evening rounds. But you had the job of selling the Football Posts and News, the local papers. So you mes you used to meet the trains that came in, you see? And running up and down the platform shouting,Football Post. Post,Post . And you did pretty well because you got a penny for every shilling's worth you sold. Plus cigarette cards if they'd got them in their pockets. . Whoever tells you they were bad old days, they never were, they were good. Now, did you have any other jobs besides a paper round when you were still at school? Tt oh, yes, on a Saturday. Yes, after the morning paper it was down to the local market, er one hour with the butcher, a butcher, chappie named Welsh, two stall he had. They were all on the market at Mansfield. You'd spend one hour boning all his big bones they he'd already took the joints off and your job was to bone it right to the bone, which he sold separately, and today you would call minced beef. That's what you'd call it. When you'd done with that, went across to another chappie that came at nine o'clock, selling clothes, used to put his lines up on his stall, he had lines across his stall and for that you got tuppence or threepence, depending on his mood and by then it would be ten o'clock so you'd go to one or two more and collect them jugs up and fetch them tea. The market traders. And ac actually they got to know you. So by the end of the day you's probably earned three shillings on the local market. Tt. You had to eat yourself, of course, so there was a s You'd run up to the hotel in called the Hotel and opposite was a family butcher and he used to sell dripping and bread. His own port dripping. And for a penny you could have a thick slice of bread, about one and a half inches, loaded with dripping, so that was your meal at lunchtime, before you nipped back to do other jobs. Personally, I'm speaking for meself, not everybody could have had the jobs. That's the way it is enterprising. Cos the object of the game was, that the end of the day on a Saturday, which of the brothers could earn the most to bring home to Mum. And so usually at the end of the day you you reversed your procedure and went back to the stalls and took the lines down and cleared up for the butchers and what have you, and then you usually got some meat, or perhaps some vegetables, and various things. So you went home with enough food etc., between you, to provide the meal for Sunday and Monday. And strangely enough, it worked. So Saturday evening was back to the papers and then back home, usually about seven, mostly walking because you couldn't afford the penny for the tram, no ha'penny fares, just a penny,w . Sunday morning, up bright and early for Sunday in those days, seven o'clock, out for a walk and then down to the church for choir. Sunday afternoon, remembering in between this you had a mile home again for Sunday dinner, and back again in the afternoon for Sunday School. And back for Sunday tea, which was very little, usually bread and jam, but er sometimes a little bit of fruit, tin of fruit, rather a luxury, you know. And then back for the evening service. So you your end of Sunday came about half past eight when the church closed down, cos services didn't start too early in those days, at six thirty, I think. Tt. And the vicar was the the Reverend K G , he was there all the while. The choir, and all about it, and the church I rather enjoyed because as as I were growing up most of the p people that came were the business people and the people that were conscientious towards that area, St. John's. And so as I grew up er they knew me and I knew them and I was to need one or two later on, for various reasons, but er you couldn't see it at the time. Right. Well, perhaps we could move on. H er to, you know, from your school days. How old were you when you left school, by the way? Well I was er Er the school days from were from er eleven to fourteen and er tt of course during that time we had the opportunity to try and pass for grammar. It's a very stiff exam I must admit, when I look back on it, and we all had a a day off to go to the at or the Grammar school, sit this exam er and since I never heard anything I'm assuming I failed. .But still. And at No loss. And I suppose they wouldn't have liked it if I'd had to stay till I was sixteen, cos th the money was needed to come in, so I don't suppose they would have liked it. Perhaps I wouldn't too, I don't really know. Er so so when you left school how did you go about looking for a job? Well that wasn't difficult, you had to be rather brazen, you see, and push your way through because although you knew there was a job going somewhere, you weren't on your own and there's a lot more after it. So it was it was up to Mum to make you nice and tidy and smart, like they always used to look after you, and send you down and say, Don't come back without it. And so off I went then and me first job was at the Dye Works, but just at the shop delivering, as a delivery boy. Tt twelve and six a week plus commission. And what did . you have to do for that then? Pardon? What exactly did that mean, did you have to do? Well i it it meant er Monday mornings you went out, you were given er an area in the town, and I was given the money area, as I termed it, Road and that. And you knocked on the doors and you canvassed who you were, they could hardly miss who you were since you were dressed up in this uniform showing everywhere, black and red, looked very smart, for a little chap. .Hopefully it was either sympathy or generosity , but still, they might find you a pair of trousers or a blazer, or even a tie. Did everything. And so hopefully you came back at the end of the day with quite a bou bag full on your bike, or a box it was, fitted in a carrier, full. And that happened each day till Thursday and then, by then, you were delivering what had come back from the Monday, hoping that when you delivered, and collected the money of course, that you might get something else tt, which I weren't too bad a salesman really. But there was only two of us and the firm did not want to keep you on, realizing that you could be coming up for fifteen, they they finished you. Not because you were bad but because they didn't want to pay any more money. And that was the top and the bottom of that job. Tt. During that time though I still kept contact with the market and the market traders on a Saturday, and a Thursday, if possible, after I'd finished, remembering the market stayed open till nine o'clock at night. In fact, they had a job to close them then, they didn't want to stop selling, you know? So there was always room to run down there and do some work for somebody else and earn a few shillings, that road. Well more S than likely, sixpences, but they mounted up. Anyway, finished from and then had to start looking again for a job. Tt. The next one was a Foundry at . Thriving business, as a foundry, Was it difficult to get that job? Well it was a matter of queuing up amongst sixty or seventy or more lads and er they managed to listen to everybody's tale and then you waited. And I was called back and they said Right. You're got the job. And I started on the Monday morning, Dad did the sandwiches, since he was head chef in the morning for the family, and off he sent me down the road, wasn't too bad it was all down hill, early in the morning it was good for you, down hill. So I was taken in and the first job I was taken, by this young fella, eighteenish, big chap to me, but he said, Come on young'un, this is what you've gotta do. And I couldn't see anything at first. He said, Look up there, and you'll see a crane, he says, We're going up that ladder. So being just do as your told, did as I was told and up we went, onto this crane overhead and the job was running up and down th er picking the boxes up, whatever the chappies want, the , and lowering them and doing exactly what they wanted. I had two days of that with this lad and then off he went. He said, Right, that is yours. And er? Well I wasn't that nervous, but er I had a go and after an hour or so I got quite confident on me own then. Fun and games till the afternoon when we started to blow the furnaces and that was the happy time. Tap, tap, tap, sparks flying everywhere and we were just above it with the cranes, waiting to fill the big ladles. So we'd fill them and we couldn't see anyway,lookin We couldn't look down and see, we had to wait for the foreman shouting all the instructions, move left, forward or up or down. Cos the molten metal blinded you anyway, no glasses or anything then. And then we had to wait while they poured them in the moulds, but if the moulds failed, and they were rather big, they was full of air-holes and they used to turn it all into a fine just l l pebbles of molten metal, straight back up at you, and you couldn't move cos if you moved your crane then somebody would have been killed with out the ladles. So it was a matter of keeping calm, collective and getting burnt. Soon learnt Did you? to overcome that, though, an old overcoat to chuck over me head and just work blind. .But it worked. And I quite enjoyed that too. Er did you remember any sort of accidents of where anything was dropped, or anything like that, with molten metal? Did I get burnt? Do you remember any accidents at the ? No. Very fortunate. That was the amazing thing about it, it all went always worked well. It was the chappies that got the trouble for for making a bad mould. No, we had no accidents, the only one I had was er when I'd been right to the top, with the other crane an and it was a long shop, and everyone had done with me during the morning, so I hoisted the crane up, pulled it in towards me and set myself going down the shop, put it in full speed. I knew exactly where to stop it so that I could get off and go down the ladder, sneak a cup of tea or something. So I'm zooming down, which I thought must have been fifty mile an hour, but it was probably only about five really, or ten, but er put the brake on for the platform to stop, no chance, it just kept going. Whirring away, boom. It hit then end of the shop and the wheels finished up out in the park next door. . With this little foreman threatening fists and everybody running out of the way of the brickwork. Didn't get the sack though. No, it got repaired. Just had to leave because Dad says If you're not working there for eight and sixpence a week, when you had to leave one job at twelve and six. Mm. What kind of hours were you working for that money? And the hours were half past seven to twelve and one till half past five. Yeah. And when I t when I got on a Friday and and paid me wages over to me Mum, which was natural for you to do, I always got th thre three pennies back. Threepence. That's very good really. And what did you do with your spending money? . It was that good you daren't do anything it, so hide it. I used to hide these three pennies because er not being used to having anything for nothing, when I'd got two or three coppers, I'd d I'd find a little hiding place outside and this house had an outside wash house in the back and I used to hide them. Of course, I realize today, the place I hid them in everybody must have known where they were cos I was small and having to reach, and the large ones must have seen they were there anyway,but er it didn't dawn on me then . But aft after that he made us leave and says Well,y there's no jobs. So you can up to the colliery and see if you can get one there. Lots of friends were at collieries because they were colliers's sons anyway tt and er so we went down about a job. Got set on straight away. This is at colliery? No, this is at colliery er which is five mile from . Get set on but er How did you manage to get thr to that distance then? Walked there for a start. Walked through the forest and came out right in the colliery yard. Got the job and they said Right. Start next week. There were no bass there then, no bass. And we started, they gave you a helmet, we had to buy a canteen to put your water in and a metal box to put your sandwiches in and then they took us down. And wh what wages were they? The wages varied on the work. Th the work at when you started? Yeah well there was no guaranteed wage, you see, because er there was no guaranteed work. You g you could get down and just start and with the one hour the blower would go and knock you off. But it was coming up to thirty nineish and the war breaking out so the one and a half days a week started to change to five days, which gave you a w a regular wages of about thirty shillings. And er one was able to travel on the bus then, at sixpence a day, return, which is very good. The buses are that efficient, buses, that if you miss one, within five minutes there was another one cos most of them were colliers and that's where they were going. Lots of buses, lots of work. Now what Never did you any harm but er lots of it. What was your first job then when you went down to the pit ? Well they always started the lads right at the pit bottom and in those days ev everybody was crackers down there in those days, they were all mad, tearing about. And when it started to wind, they'd bang the coal on, they'd bang the empties off and my job was to er tt push the empties, split them, split the empties, Into ? so many to one row and so many to another. Yeah. Couple them up, send them off. But being me I couldn't stand that very long, may be two or three months, and I asked to be moved. And which was termed, Going down the roads. Er because the pit bottom was lit up and it meant going down into the dark, an exciting thought for a young fella, er and so off I went and I was put down on one of the faces, as a lad, and said, Right lad, you want to be collier? We'll show you. You start with him, at that gate end, and he'll show you how to go on, that chappie there. And your job to clean the bells, keep them clear, while he's chopping his coal out and that and you'll be alright. Well I started a clear, er the chap came and showed me, he says,You're alright lad, he said, This is how you do it , Ten shovels and it was clear. I thought, Oh, that's not bad at all. So I bent down to clear it and gradually it crept up me legs to me knees,What's the matter lad? I can't keep cope with this? He says I'll show you, give me the shovel. again, There you are. Well, ten minutes later it was still up to me knees, I said, I can't keep this up and he shouted something down to somebody else, who shouted to somebody else, Put your sprags back lads. And apparently these other lads further down, to the tune of about a hundred and fifty yards, had all lifted the boards up on the belt and so all their slack and that was coming to me. And since it was the end of the belt I couldn't get i go by anybody with me, I had to move it. tt So I chucked the shovel down, and climbed out off the face and sat in there and cried and cried and cried. Backache, despondent and everything else but the comfort of the chappie that was training me, he said, Come on lad, you'll be alright. And he was right, I was, I mastered it. I'd learnt me lesson with the others, they didn't work it on me again like that. So I stayed with him for quite while until I was able to tackle my own half a stint, not a full stint, which was nine yards. Four and a half yards, which you could tackle as a lad and then they er paid you for what you did. Which was interesting at that time, since it came out of a tin and not out of an office. Er the butty paid you, you see, out of his tin, what he thought fit and he gave me ten shillings for the first one I done,first day I done, and I told me Dad when I got home, he says, Ten shillings? What have you been doing? and I explained. And he said, Right, I'll come with you. Next Friday when you go to get your money, cos I wasn't always with the collier, mostly I was on the day work. They were supposed to be doing me a favour, giving me that work, four and a half yards. But anyway, he came up on the Monday er sorry, on the Friday when they was paying out, he said, Which chappie paid you? I said He's down there, paying those That's him. So he tapped him on the shoulder and Dad being a big chap with big chest just said er S Do you know my lad? He said, Yes, I know him. He says, Did you pay him last week for what he did? He said, I paid him. He says, How much did you pay him? He said, Ten shillings. He said, How much did you pay the others? He says, What's that to you? He said, Look, I'm his Dad, what did you pay the others? He said, Two pounds. And he says, Right, pay him two pounds. And I mean it. Well he had second thoughts and then he changed his mi , he put his hand in and said, There you are. Unfortunately I lost me job then on the face, having done that to the butty, I didn't get back four yards, or whatever it was. So then I decided I would like to be that I knew there was a job going on the electricians, so I thought well I'll I'll go in for the electrical side. Which involved going to evening classes and er then back to work and this involved nights regular, so it was a bit a bit of a dash, sleeping, evening class and then catching a bus which the first one, nine o'clock and to the colliery and starting. And what hours were you doing then? Well they were nine till seven, really six, but mostly seven o'clock before you got away and it involved wiring er coal cutting machines. You worked with the electrician as his mate, very interesting work. Unfortunately it came to a sudden stop, got too efficient at it, you see, and er got done too early. And where the electrician's shop was wa was the stables for the horses, nice, friendly animals they were too. Well We came in one morning, the electrician and I, about five instead of seven, because we'd done and er we used to nip in and kip down with the horses for ten minutes which was forbidden, to sleep in the colliery. . So at seven o'clock we're asleep with the horses when the day shift come on, couldn't find us. Course one of the problems was you were checked in and checked out and if er you hadn't come out there was a bit of a panic, Where is the person? Where is his er number like? But anyway, reprimanded for that, didn't get sack but er had to move on to other things and that meant to me decided What? to become one of the cutting team. Yeah. And w how much were you getting as an electrician then? Oh, it's a basic wage but it increased to about two pounds fifty or something, because of the status of the job. And how long did you actually do that job for? Oh, it was eighteen months I should imagine, I was doing quite well, I'd been praised by the head electrician and everything, for further advancement till er that particular incident stopped it. . And this is why I choose the cutters because it was mechanically and er I I was quite with it, I was able to sort of get it going if it stopped, one road or another. Perhaps n not quite orthodox, but it went. Erm somebody I know has asked me to er You know I don't know if you know how they compile dictionaries? No. Well they they read stuff and they get tape recordings of people talking and they go through and Mhm. analyze it and they see Mm. how words are used. Yeah. Because the language changes all the time, Right. and they have to keep them up to date. Right. And that's about What what what it is is they've just someone's asked me if I'll just do some recordings of some of the lessons. Also it'll help me to see er if I'm doing the lesson properly. Oh right, yeah. Er it's totally anonymous. It's typed up, they don't use the tape itself, they type No. it up from it with all sorts of weird accents and things put in, Alright. and anything that could identify anyone is taken out. So that's that's a bit what it's about. Erm it's tied up with Dictionary, it's and and that kind of D do you know of the project? No don't know that. Okay it's University and do that one. But they all work more or less the same. Could I turn that off? Oh sure yeah. The little red button on the top. The little red button on the top? Oh green o it's the green one . . So that should be recording now . Spinning away there. Yeah. And then it won't it won't bother us at all will it? Erm Yeah there's that maths paper. Okay. Now then part of it is they ask me You don't have to, but they ask me to ask people to sign erm to say It's just to say that you don't mind your conversation being used. But they won't There'll be nothing in it to identify you. Oh sure yeah. They take out everything. I believe you. It's it's very it's all done very professionally in that it's very well controlled. Have you got the paper? Right. Have you had a look through? Yeah I had a look er through it just before when I got it. Okay. It's been stuck in my bag all day. Now when you looked through it and it wasn't an exam, twenty sixth or something was it ? Yeah. Did you think, Oh, of course, oh I could have done that, but Yeah. any like that? Erm there's a couple yeah. So we'll have a look at those and see if we can see why in the exam Yeah. it didn't That was obvious. . Okay. So what have we got? And this one yeah. Okay. Erm . Erm what did you think when you saw it in the exam? Erm I just erm read the question like and I just I I I thought it'd be like a triangle, you work it out on the triangle and then I thought no that Okay. can't be right. Cos it's so much longer, the actual distance it swings through, dunno if it'd be flat. Right. So when you looked at in the in the exam, did you think, Oh, they're not giving me enough information here, or There's some trick I don't know, or what did you think about it? I just thought it was erm I dunno, I ju I j just figured they were trying to get us to draw it draw it into a triangle.. Well did did you answer the question? Er no cos I realized that I was that it was totally wrong so I just gave it a miss and went on to something else . So you th so you thought, Ah, draw a triangle, and then when you sort of Did you start it start the question at all? Yeah, I drew the triangle on the paper and I realized And then you thought, Oh that's wrong . No that's I mean you didn't go back? So you realized it was wrong? Yeah. You thought, Oh, it's not a triangle. So, what is it? It's like an arc like. It's an arc. Right so you can see now how to do it? Yeah. And how d how do you it? Er you measure get the erm well measure the whole circumference first, That's it. and then take that as a proportion of the Mhm. circumference. Good. So you you're looking at It's not a question of erm doing much calculating or anything else, it's just seeing what the problem is, isn't it? Yeah. If someone got the pendulum, gave it a flick Yeah. and it went all the way round, no problem there. Two pi R. But it doesn't, it just does Is it forty thirty degrees? Mm. It's thirty over three sixty. So what was that? Three marks. So it wasn't a lot on that anyway, but it it it's don't forget that's a good indication. I mean if they're only giving three marks for it you're not going to do a lot of geometry and all sorts of constructions and complicated things. No. It's going to be fairly straightforward. So without knowing any more than you knew when you sat the exam,you could pick up an extra three marks there. Yeah. Yeah. Just by not being thrown by the question. Mhm. Or Er don't forget, part of it especially in an exam,erm part of solving er any problem is, Oh, I know how to do this. Ah, that doesn't work. . And then you go back. You find out what's wrong with what you've done and sort of go off in another direction, or maybe follow the same direction slightly and veer off. So don't be put off when your first attempt doesn't work. Yeah. There's still time in an exam, if you realize soon enough as you did, to have another go. Now what about this one? That one. I I figured erm C er s complete accurately below accurately below the part of the wind that shows wind directions . So I measured that, it was about five centimetres. Right. And so I figured that Complete must mean continue on. Er but I did it at a scale like erm one centimetre for o for every hour it's blowing in that direction. So I wrote it along the top of the er paper I was using. Mm. And I thi and erm I think west was seven, and that's only five centimetres, so I extended it another two centimetres . Oh. And I thought it was complete like. And then and then completed the rest of it. But what I should have done was measured that,that would have been about forty nine centimetres, this'd be out maybe Right. seven millimetres . Right. So that was sort of completely misunderstanding the question, Yeah. really. You're maki making a an assumption that they're obviously going to use a scale of Yeah. one centimetre to whatever it is,one. I mean thi this wind force here, er what are they? They go up to Did you do the first part of it? Yeah. Yeah I did that. Mm. the the eight angles divided by three hundred and sixty so three si three hundred and sixty divided by eight. Erm well let's have a look, again. The wind blows from the north, okay. Calculate the size of the interior angle of the regular octagon. Let's have a little bit of paper and have a look at that. You've Have you had your paper back? Erm y it back today. Yeah. And er then he took it back of us for some reason. . That's teachers. . Not very helpful was it? Okay. A regular octagon. Erm how about if I leave you to do that one? I'll make mine a regular hexagon. Oh yeah. Okay. So if you want to draw a hexagon erm how many points equally spaced around the circle? We're going to draw a hexagon inside the circle . Yes there's six. Six, okay. And where will they come? Zero degrees,Where's the next one? Erm I see, that erm This one is That's sixty degrees it yeah . Right. So you're going to divide three sixty into six equal arcs I see yeah. of sixty. And the next one? That's a hundred and twenty. Okay. And then? A hundred and eighty and erm then two hundred and forty. Okay. And er three hundred. Okay. And then you're back to the three sixty or nought again. Oh I see yeah. Okay. So we've got got a a rule somewhere. my ruler . I keep losing my set squares and rules and things. There's one though. Okay where was the centre of that? Right. Now this is a hexagon. Erm join that up, okay. and we should finish up with about six sides roughly. Now while I finish it off, if you'd like to just measure one of the interior angles that I've already done. And what's it come to? A hundred and twenty degrees. A hundred and twenty. Okay. Now according to your theory that you were applying to that Yeah. one, you just divide You say it's a six-sided figure, divide three sixty by six Oh right yeah. Oops. What angle does that give, that that sixty degrees? Where could you find that angle? Erm Could be oppo other side there if that was extended. Okay. I think so, if this was this this was extended . Oh, right. So if you extended that That bit there. That would be That is sixty. Now we've got a very special case here haven't we? Yeah. Because we've got sixties all over the place so maybe it wasn't a brilliant one to try but it gives us some indication of what's going on. Where's another? Another sixty? Erm between these, connected. Okay. Any other ones? No. Right. Now that one is bound to be sixty, the the angle at the centre, because that was how we made it. Yeah. Put that down and we thought right draw the circle,space it out equally,six equal angles is what we were doing at the same time as six equal arcs, all at sixty degrees, or all at one sixth of three sixty. Right yeah. Okay. Now the octagon. Could you do that one? Okay. So we'll make a little centre somewhere. Right. Okay. Right. Okay. Erm So what's the angle going to be? How are you working it out? Erm be three sixty divided by eight. Okay. What does that come to? Erm about About . Erm yeah . Use your calculator . So that's three sixty er Could you do three sixty divided by four? It's nine yeah so four and a half. Okay, so forty five. Okay. You start from wherever you like. start that way up. Bit easier. Good. So you'll get all your right angles marked, each ninety, and then the halfway points between Yeah. each ninety. This is I mean you wouldn't do this in an exam, you wouldn't draw one and work how you draw it, but by doing it now erm you get to know a regular figure. You get to know sort of how to construct one. I mean now if i said, Make me a a figure that's got ten equal sides, you could do it couldn't you? Yeah. Or twenty. So you could construct those. And then join the join these points up to the centre. Get that out of your way. So you'll be able to see. Well you know what the angle's going to be at the centre already don't you without Yeah. without measuring, cos it because of the way you constructed it. It's got to be forty five. So we can then when we've drawn that,find out what the other angles are,and try and work out what will always be true and what will depend on which angle you choose. If we draw a join a few of those up through the centre, just so we can mark the angle. So you can join any two opposite corners and it'll go through the centre . Yeah. Erm In fact you might as well do the last one as well. So what angle do you know absolutely definitely without thinking about it ? . And that is what? Forty five. That's forty five. That's your three sixty divided by eight. Okay. . And you've got lots of lots of triangles that are the same. That's forty five right? That's forty five. It looks forty five. Definitely. Yeah. Erm how can you tell it's forty five? Well I mean is there any way you could It's erm prove it? I mean you could measure it maybe and say Yeah. Okay it comes to forty five. You could draw lots of these figures. You did another one sixty, and it came to sixty. Yeah. Well it'd be for the this angle if you extended it so it'd be eight divided by the three sixty isn't it? Erm Three sixty divided by eight. It looks it looks as if it is. I'm not Yeah. disputing if it whether it is or it isn't, but how can we show that it is? How can we say , Erm Well it always will be? Oh right erm Think about what sort of things add up to one eighty. Yeah it'll be all all the angles on this line. Okay. Erm Let's say if we marked This is forty five degrees. Yeah. Okay. What about these two angles, what do we know about them? Oh right they've got to add up to a hundred and eighty Right. right. They're both the same angle for a start, because we've got an isosceles triangle, and forty five plus two X must add up to a hundred and eighty. Yeah. That one there is also X. So here we've got this angle plus two X . Yeah so the two X minus one eighty is Okay. the outer one. It'll always be that one. So this'll work for anything. Now,what was the question? What did they ask? A size of the interior angle of the regular octagon. What do they mean by the interior angle? The angle between these two points. Right. And what should it be? Erm A hundred and a hundred and thirty five. Okay. Right I see . So you've got the right idea of dividing it by eight, but you needed to take it on a stage and see what the was. Erm like I divided Yeah. divi divided divided by eight then minus one eighty. Mm. That'd get that angle all the time. Right. Yeah. It'll always work. Now the other question they've got is,What is the angle between the two rectangles? Well there's one rectangle and there's the other one at right angles to this one. What's that angle going to be? It looks like forty five. Erm It looks like forty five, and it's almost certainly going to be forty five, and we could probably work out some reason why it would be forty five. Would it be erm a hundred and thirty five for the interior angle? That's a right angle there, and Yeah. that's a right angle. Carry on.. Erm minus one eighty to get this angle. To get this one, yeah. And then the same Yeah. the other way round to get that one . So if it was that one, if you could get take that one, it could be anywhere along the plane. If you were at a right angle If it If it was two right ang er angle lines like that at right angles Right. So you do ninety degrees one one of your ninety degrees Yeah. off the off the one eighty . Yeah. Okay. So are you happy with that, that you can if someone gives you someone says Draw er a figure, er a regular polygon with twelve sides, you kn you know how to construct one? Yeah. And by constructing it you learn its properties if you like. This is that's that's the obvious one. That's the Yeah. big thing. That's always divide three sixty by N to give you the angle at the centre of the circle. What about these two angles, what's the important point about those then? Well add up to erm plus that would add up to n a hundred and eighty. Plus that they add up to a hundred and eighty. And . And they're the same. And they're . isosceles yeah. Right. So once you know that, these two are the same you take that from one eighty,halve the answer and it'll give you these angles, and if you've got that ang if you've got these angles,then you can work out most things. . Any q any questions they give you based on that, you'll be able to do it. Erm that way you'll have an understanding of it rather than just saying, Well this bit is always. Would it work for a square? Erm Without drawing it, try and talk about a square. What would happen? Erm How would you work out? If you d Er just sort of talk it through. Drawing a circle, what would you do? Well you'd er mark off Mhm. every erm ninety degrees. Okay. And draw through the points. You'd draw through the four points. work if you d drew a diagonal Okay. the centre. You know. Erm Be ninety. Ninety, ninety, ninety. And these angles would be? What would the angle Erm here be? Forty five. They'd be forty five . Isosceles yeah. So the interior angle. Would be ninety. Would be ninety. Yeah. And the exterior angle would also be Would be forty five. would also be ninety. Oh yeah it would. Yeah. Right? In a square . I see it. So it would work with a square. Erm would it work with a triangle? Erm three points the centre point. Right. So what would the angle at the centre be? It'd be erm twelve. Hundred and twenty degrees yeah . Hundred and twenty. Okay. Yes but it wou cos if you had the centre point up to the top of these two that'd be hundred and twenty, hundred and twenty, hundred and twenty. so if someone said like Do a a hundred-and-eighty-sided figure Yeah. it it'd just look like a circle. But you could do it. So you're happy with polygons? Okay. So that's one if it comes up again Definitely . No problem on that . Yeah. So you've obviously dropped a few marks on that. Yeah. Erm probably on this and on this one. The big thing there is there's no rule in life that says you know if someone says Five them you must draw five centimetres. Yeah. This might have been five knots, five miles an hour, Yeah. decide well we'll have five inches. Erm it is likely that it's not a linear scale anyway. It's possibly the Beaufort Scale Yeah. which is a sort of logarithmic scale . Yeah. Erm so don't make don't make too many assumptions. carry on with symmetry? Yeah. I got all of er for them more. Okay. So let's let's have a look at the others. Now you tell me which ones you think were an absolute doddle. A giveaway. This was the ones here. Mhm. Measure the size of the angle compass. Okay. Did you Erm protractor sorry. did you use that or No cos I didn't have it at the time when I did that. Would it have been an advantage to use the ? Erm well er yes I thought cos I'm just measuring the Yeah. It depends what you're used to. When you get used Aha. to this one, you'll find it so much easier. Yeah. Erm it's a bit off-putting at the start because it's got the two scales on. Yeah. Make sure you're reading the right one all the time. Okay. So no problem there. You think you got Did you did you see which ones you got full marks on? Erm yeah. I didn't do this I d I didn't quite finish this one cos we only had erm one and a half hour to do the two-hour paper like. Okay. And there were how many marks on that then? Erm erm eleven marks like. Mm. Mm. So at the start of the paper,have a quick whiz through, see where the marks are, Do them first, yeah. and think, Well I'm going to Not necessarily do them first. I mean you can whi you could go through and you can pick up lots of ones and twos that build up. You're probably going to do them anyway, and they're good to get you into it. So you're thinking, Oh this hasn't been an exam, these are dead easy, to just play yourself in. Erm but don't like the Mm. ones the or others, if you're getting stuck on them, don't miss something like this that you could do and get full marks. Yeah. Er you know makes a big difference to your final grade doesn't it? Right. Any problems with these? Erm no. They they they were they were straightforward, just Okay. How did you do this one? Erm I drew a I drew a erm Venn diagram. Right. Put my twenty one in the Whimby circle or Whitby circle, and the thirteen in the erm Scarborough circle. Put X in the middle, and twenty one minus X . Okay. Just just show me how you did that one. So a trip to Whitby and a trip to Scarborough. You've got thirty pupils interested in one or both trips. Right. Twenty one interested . in the Whitby and thirteen interested in the one to Scarborough. So there's an X in the middle. How many interested in both of these trips? Erm Now okay. You've got thirty down there, that's good,X in the middle, twenty one minus X, thirteen minus X . Yeah. Okay. So So when you get to that point you you've more or Yeah. less solved the problem haven't you. If you can if you can handle simple equations, you get the answer. Like most of these, the key Mm. is what should we call X. Once you've Yeah. sorted that out then you follow your system. Okay. And does that does that work out? How many would you have in here then? Yes you'd have erm seventeen. So you've got seventeen in there, seventeen in Whitby. And eleven. Okay. And then erm four interested in the both trips so What does that come to? Erm erm it's twelve. Oh right that's not right is it, no. Erm Mm. Okay so we've got eleven and four is fifteen, and seventeen is thirty two. It says there were thirty pupils. Yeah. Mm. Now did you see your marks on this one? Erm no. I d I didn't er not on that one. No that's okay. So there's another one where probably you can pull up your marks quite easily . Yeah. Cos you know you know the method, you know what to do, it's just a question of sorting it out. You know a little bit of extra thinking about it. So one of the points that sort of comes up is you haven't used the thirty at all have you? Now did they give you that and it's something you don't need or do you think maybe it's something you do need? Er . I just didn't know how to apply it . Mm. Okay. Is this basic idea okay? We've got X pupils interested in both, so we've got twenty one minus X in that and thirteen want to go to Scarborough, okay? Thirteen minus X in there. Now where did this come from? Twenty one minus thirteen equals two X. Well you've got your X there, you've got your two Xs there, so you subtract them and you've got Mm. and then take the halve. Well th you've got an equation, okay. Twenty one minus thirteen equals two X. Now where did it where did it come from? Show me where each term from so you could Thanks very much. Cheers Dad. Put away your er luggage. . Er cheers. Scattered about . Cheers. Right. Okay. Thanks very much. . S erm so I had to subtract these two. Mm. Try and explain it in terms of say let's get all these kids out into the school yard, Yeah. and draw two big circles that intersect, Yeah. and say, Now we want to sort you out, see who's going where, so we can organize the coach now, and if you're interested in Scarborough go and stand in that circle,Whit Whitby there, interested in both then stand where the two circles intersect. Yeah. Okay. Now take it from there. What will you what how can you work out Well erm just count how many's erm I mean two teachers come back and one of them says, Well I've counted all those who are going to Whitby. and the other one says, I've counted all those who are going to Scarborough, Mhm. and er nobody remembered to count the ones in the middle. But we do know there were thirty pupils, which hasn't Has that appeared in your equation anywhere? No not really. No. Now erm I still don't really understand where you got this from. Erm Why did you you do twenty one minus thirteen for a start? Well I had the the twenty one and thirteen in the two groups so subtract those two and have twice the amount of X I thought I would have . Erm you you seem to be equating the groups. Okay. We won't go into where you go that from cos I think it sounds a bit like sort of clutching at straws really. Yeah. I'm going to get an equation out of this. You you've you've started off brilliantly. You've got marked on you know exactly how many are going to Whitby,right, twenty one minus X, how many are going to both, and how many are going to Scarborough. So what could you find out from that? That ties up with this. That ties up with . You could er subtract the number going to Whitby from thirty. You could. Erm You could do something a lot And then simpler. A lot simpler. How many pupils were there altogether? There were thirty pupils so And how many are there standing there in the playground? There's thirty. Right? Right. So an equation? Yeah. Count how many you've got in here. We've got twenty one minus So twenty one minus X plus thirteen minus X is equal to thirty. And those in the middle as well. But oh twenty one minus X plus X plus thirteen minus X is thirty . Right. So we just right that down, that's the total. So we've got twenty one minus X those are the ones going to Whitby, and we've got X going to both, and we've got thirteen minus X, and that's the lot. Now assume that this is assuming they all voted. They all said, Yes we do want to go. Yeah. Erm it would have been better if they'd given you some information to say, They all voted for at least one Yeah. trip, or there were four who went nowhere. Okay. So. Erm What does that give you? So it'd be erm thirty four minus two X plus X erm Okay. Er X So how do you just I mean rather than do it in your head, especially in an exam, just what you're going to do, put the Add X to both sides say. Erm If you add X to minus X . Oh it's three yeah. Right. Let's have a little look. Thirty four equals thirty. Right. If we just take it from there. Thirty four minus X equals thirty. Now as soon as you've got a minus X and you're trying to take it over to one side, and you're trying to bring the other one over, there's a good chance that something's going to go wrong. So why not just follow a nice simple system. Thirty four minus X equals thirty. Okay. Add X to each side. They go out. Subtract thirty from both sides. Thirty four minus thirty equals thirty minus thirty add X. Okay. So X is equal to? Four. Which is what you've got there. And Yeah. Now does it add up? It should do this time if your if Is this right? We've got Let's check that. got the same answer still. Twenty one minus X If I give you some numbers to add up. If I said twenty seven add thirty five add forty nine add seventeen, would you add them up like that? Or might you put them one under another? Yeah I'd probably put the numbers Okay. So which are easier to Yes. fit ea slip easier. Twenty one minus X plus X plus thirteen minus X. Tot those up. Plus X and a minus X go out. That gives minus X. Thirty four equals thirty. Erm there may be a simpler way of doing it. Now is this right? Cos we're still getting X equals four. Add the X to each side,take the thirty off each side we've got X equals four. So what's going wrong here? Seventeen and Ah. Oh sorry nine yeah. Nine yeah. Because that comes to because that comes to nine.. Yeah that's right. And that comes to . that comes to thirty. Okay. So it does come to thirty. Erm the way you were doing it will sometimes give the right answer but the easiest way Yeah. is to make sure every box is marked in there. Let's do a slightly more complicated version. Erm scribble on here. Now let's sort this out. Erm let's see Okay. Let's see if those erm Right. This time Let's take that off. This time there are twenty nine in the class. So you've got twenty nine students in the class and fifteen want to go to Whitby,and eight want to go to Scarborough,and three little piggies want to stay at home. Three of them don't want to go anywhere. Twenty nine in the class so what I'd like to know is erm draw the Venn diagram and find out the numbers of students in every section of the diagram. And then if you can do that you can do any problem of this sort can't you? Yeah I suppose so. three. Right. Okay. So where are you going to start? Yeah but this Right. That doesn't add up to twenty nine, does it? It doesn't add up to twenty nine . Eleven. Erm Twenty six. Twenty six. Okay. Well spotted. I probably mean nineteen or something. Let's have a look. Erm Erm Okay. Seven seven don't want to go anywhere. Right. Seven don't want to go anywhere. Right. Okay. That's great. Erm that's So you've got the various sections of the diagram. You've got the Whitby lot, the Whitby and Scarborough, Scarborough and the don't want to go anywhere. When when you when you add them up just if you just put them under each other, it makes it very easy. So keep the numbers That goes there. that's it keep the numbers under the numbers and the Xs under the Xs. Okay it's twenty nine right. So an X plus er So X equals one. Okay. What will that give us? That's Fourteen and seven is twenty one. Fourteen that was sent to me by the the people who want the stuff. So Oh right yeah. . Okay what does that come to? Er twenty twenty nine Twenty nine. Now you might think, Erm oh a bit finickity saying do it this way, but it's a good system. Erm also when you're when you're adding up if you get this fifteen minus X, right, eight minus X and you're putting You just cross those. the numbers underneath each other and the Xs underneath each other, plus X, and then the plus sign X. well that goes with the numbers. Yeah? Then when you add them up You don't get confused. So I can just Mm. take these two off. Because there are Mm. so many, it's very very easy to do. Yeah. Lots of people'll finish up with, Oh that's a three X and they'll put plus three. Mhm. And this way it's more obvious what's going on. There's going to be a minus X left over there, and then you can add those up. Thirty minus X equals, how many were there, twenty nine. And it more or less does itself. Yeah. So as I said, if I give you a list of numbers, say two- or three- digit numbers Yeah. in a long line,horizontally, you'd think, Oh I'd like to put these vertically Yeah. and do a nice little adding up on it. So why not do it with Xs, because there's more chance of an error. Now why it's a good idea to do it that way So I don't in me head like and mixed up. Again in an exam, there's more chance that you make a little slip, because there's little bit of extra edge. nerves like. A similar one. Erm this time everyone's at Wembley and you're asking people,Right, if you draw this time we draw three big circles in the middle of Wembley,okay,and ask people to come and say which football team they think is a good one. So we've got Liverpool, Everton and Tranmere Rovers. So they say The instructions to the crowd are, If you think Liverpool is a a good football team, stand anywhere in that circle, Everton in that circle, Tranmere Rovers, stand in this one. And we get something like this. Erm and let's say there are a few a few awkward ones here er who don't think any of them Yeah. are a good team. So those who think Liverpool is a good one,standing in in that circle, we've got say twelve thousand. Okay. In the Everton circle we've got say fourteen thousand. And in the Tranmere circle we've got erm twenty thousand say. Okay. And we've got thirty thirty thousand people there altogether. Now so I want to know the sort of the numbers in all the boxes. Now Right. talk about it a bit before you start it. Erm is it similar to the problem you've done? Is it harder? Is it much harder? Well it's just erm it's like doing three of the previous ones isn't it like? Yeah. How are you going to sort that out? Erm well I'll start off labelling these W X Y Z. Right. And er label this. That's . So as you're labelling it, what do you think of the problem? Erm it's er Do you think it's easy or very much harder than the last one or just er pretty difficult eh. No. You're not going to be able to just look at it and write down something equals two X are you . No. You've got to really work out what's what. Right. Okay. So you've labelled your diagram and you this one is that minus W minus Y minus X so on. Erm it's a bit a bit awkward-looking isn't it? Yeah just a bit. Could you have labelled it in a way that would sort of help yourself more? Make it a bit simpler. those three added together, so W plus X plus Y plus plus the er the rest of E equal fourteen thousand. Yeah. Okay. So what's your next step from there? Oh right, I write it down on the paper. So erm Okay. And how many equations are you going to get do you think? Erm . About. About. Okay. All right. Hundreds. About hundreds. Erm No erm Well okay let's look at it another way. How many equations would you l would you like? Mm about one. Just one or two. Erm If I gave you a problem about sort of prices of apples and pears I suppose it no I suppose erm two W plus two three Y plus X plus Z Mm. If I said erm, Ten pears plus six apples costs two pound forty, Yeah. how much does one apple cost? what would you say to that? You can't really do it really. Why not? Cos you've got two unknowns. And? And only one equation. Right. So that give you any ideas about this . You got to have two two equations. Two equations. How many unknowns have we got? Erm. Three four five. No. That the I've got I I know these. You know those. I've got four unknowns there. So you've got four unknowns, so you're going to need Four equations right? Does that sound a bit daunting? Yeah. Well so four simultaneous equations. Mhm. And they won but they won't be difficult cos they're all linear. Yeah. They're all there're no X squareds or W squareds or anything else in. . But you can do them. So with with that, you know how much the total comes to, thirty thousand. Right. So I could put Oh aye yeah, W plus e Y plus X plus E equals fourteen thousand. Mm. And erm . Have you used Say in the first one, Yeah. Er you didn't use that. So can you use can you think of an equation that involves that? The total people. Well tell me tell from your diagram, what's the total? Thirty thousand that are there. Right, but that okay ? Oh just these added up? Okay. So don't forget the one thousand who don't think any of them are a good team, add all those up and that will give you a fourth equation. Yeah. And all you need to do then is to find one of these in terms of the others and substitute in, and it'll come out fairly easily. Now you can choose these erm slightly differently. For example you've got lots of got lots of minuses in. What you could have done say was this one here that's marked E doesn't have to be all of those who supported Everton, it could be just that bit. Yeah. Right. And you can an expression for it then in terms of that. But there's no reason why you stop at three. It could have been twenty five different variables Yeah. there are in real problems. Erm With two it's not too difficult. I mean sometimes you can almost just try an intelligent guess and maybe Yeah. about the third guess you try you get the right answer. With that, there's not much chance . No. Okay. Erm so you need to develop a system that's going to always give you a method and is always making the work easier for you and not getting you lost. Okay. So that's enough I think Mm. on that to sort of show you the power of the system we were just using to erm The obvious thing to do is to label every area of the diagram, and don't forget they do sometimes say, Seven were not interested in Yeah. in anything. Label every area and then use what they give you about the total number. The total was thirty pupils,add all that lot up equals thirty. And when you were doing these with lots of you've got now got W X Y and Z in,when you're adding up if you lay them out like that Right yeah. with the Ws under the Ws it's you'll find that those horrible looking equations will simplify quite nicely cos there'll be a plus W and a minus W. I see yeah. And you'll get things that you know you'll get an equation just in X then . So it'll be erm so fourteen thousand minus W minus Y minus X Mhm. and the next one then twelve thousand minus W Mm. minus Y, then Yeah. miss that gap plus Z That's it. Exactly. And then that one Right, you've got it. two thousand plus Yeah. Y and X and Z. So although it looks like, Ooh this is horrible, four equations four unknowns, I'll be here all night And then it's not cos you're just . I've got You're eliminating one at a time. Yeah. Once you've got that fourth equation in from all this lot adds up to the total, and that's the one that you seem to be forgetting, that's the one you've got to try and remember. Okay? So shouldn't be any problem on those. This one er I wasn't too sure either. Mm looks like geometry to me. Mm yeah yeah. So A B is parallel to D C. Calculate the values of erm write down possible Okay. Erm it's geometry. That's the answer to that, Yeah. basically. It's something that I usually say, Leave till the last. It is a Did you spend much time on that? No I j just had a l er Good. er an attempt and then I thought, No I'm not Good. gonna It's a waste of time . It's it's it's the sort of thing that I would always recommend And there's only about three marks for it anyway so. Exactly. Leave your attempt till the end. So rather than you going well on this nice question, and you could you could have done it and picked up Yeah. another sort of six marks or maybe eight marks for the the end bit of the question, erm you'd spent a bit of time on this. Anything to do with geometry unless you've had a lot of practice and you're very good at it, you can finish up wasting time. Yeah. So I would say, Have a go but leave it till last, when you when you've done everything else and maybe you when you've just checked through to see if the others are okay. So let's have a a little look here. Political party making election promises. Erm was that one alright? Yeah. That wasn't too bad. Eight percent every year. a hundred and seventy five billion. Mhm. Erm put it over a hundred times the eight. Okay. And then you add that onto that. And the next Right. year you get Now. Okay. Erm Mm, yeah that's good. And did you do it that way, you worked out the percentage and added it on? Yeah. Added it on after Right. What's Start off with a hundred pound Yeah. and add twenty percent on. Yeah. What's the final amount ? Hundred and twenty. Okay. Start off with a hundred pounds and add thirty five percent on. So a hundred and thirty five pounds yeah. Okay. Start off with erm two hundred and add thirty five percent on. What's your final answer ? Erm two Two hundred Okay. and seventy. So how are you working it out? It's erm two hundred over a hundred Two hundred and then work out thirty five over a hundred of that, Er work out what that comes to, which is seventy, and then add your two hundred on. Okay. Well if we do something like what we finish up with is thirty five percent of two hundred of two hundred okay, plus a hundred percent isn't it? Yeah. Of two hundred. So what does that come to? A hundred and thirty five percent. Oh I see yeah. Okay. . So if you want to So it's if you when especially as you're going to do it on your calculator anyway, . what would you multiply to get the answer straight off? What would you multiply that two hundred by? One three five and then percentage. One point Three oh three five . three five. Yeah, or a hundred and thirty five percent as you said. Yeah. Erm if you find you've got a calculator without a percentage key, and some of them haven't, especially Yeah. some of the scientific ones, mine's got one. erm you can just do that . . So if I wanted to find out erm Let's do that one with the the N H S, and this time I want to know how much it's going to be It starts off at a hundred pounds. Yeah. A hundred billion. Okay, just call it a hundred. And we increase it by ten perc Well let's say we increase it by It's not out money is it, so let's really spend it and increase it by fifty percent every year. Yeah. What would you multiply that by, that hundred? One point five. Okay. So do that try that on your calculator. So what did you get? hundred and fifty pound. Right. So while that's still in, times one point five again. . Well you've still got your one fifty in, so times one point five. So two hundred and twenty five right. And leaving that in, times one point five. That's three hundred and thirty seven point five. So you can see how they as if they ask you to do it over three years or five years or something You just keep on doing that yeah. you don't you're not doing several operations and putting some in memory and bringing it back and giving yourself lots of chances of making mistakes. No. It's just multiply it by that constant thing each time. And with most with a lot of calculators I mean you Don't try it unless you really know your calculator and know how it works, you can just keep pressing equals, Yeah. and it does the last thing you've done times the Yeah. say do it once and say we want six years, put equals equals equals Yeah. more times. Erm if you're going to use =thing something like that in the exam I mean there's no reason why you shouldn't use that multiplying it by one point whatever the percentage is. Yeah. What would you have multiplied it by if it was erm the eight percent? One point eight. One point Well what would you Oh ze oh zero eight, yeah sorry zero eight . Yeah, okay. That's the only thing to watch, that. Yeah cos that'd be Eigh eighty percent that'd be eighty percent yeah. eighty percent is one point eight but eight percent, okay seven percent one point O seven. That's the only snag with that, that you you can get the wrong But it's very much way of doing it . Yeah. Okay. Solve the equation. That's pretty straightforward that. Expand that. You can do that. Yeah. so much for its call-out fixed charge plus the time. That's okay. Yeah. Yeah? And then working backwards. It costs Yeah. sixty five pound And then just er just changing the subject there like. Right. Now if we put that on there. Erm I dunno this is somebody else's paper so This is before I had a I worked it out as I I th I thought it'd work out a three- four-five triangle. Mm. Did you work out it was a ninety degrees? Erm yeah well I I Why? I realized that cos Why? Cos it looked it? No cos erm the here you've got this in a semicircle, Right. and if it's touching Okay. the top it's always ninety degrees . Did you say that on the paper? Erm I just put a little arrow with ninety degrees in the semicircle . Mm. Cos it looked it. Erm wh what they're looking for in this answer is erm Because it's the angle in the semicircle angle B is ninety degrees. Yeah. And then carry on and do the other bit. Erm you know you can look at that or you can put a protractor on it and Mm. think Well that's ninety, but you need to say that it is ninety because it's the angle in there. Yeah. Okay. Right. So you'd probably get minimum marks for that . three marks for that anyway. Mhm. What did you think of this? I looked at it and I er panicked. Then I looked at it again and I realized that it wasn't too hard. Mm. I mean I got er the only th part erm I did mess up a bit was the the part here. Mm. Cos I got this the wrong way round. But other than that I got the right. Right. Now this this what I'd like you to do,is read it out but only read the absolute bare bones of it. We don't want to hear anything about Janet having trouble with her bike and Janet a powerful young woman or riding the race of her life , or any don't want Yeah. any of that. It's just rubbish. When you when you're reading this through, you're having a quick skim through, you can can you can cross out, you can sort of totally obliterate Yeah. what you don't want to know because it's One of the problems here is there's so much noise. Yeah. There's so much random stuff that you don't just details irrelevant . yeah. You don't want to know that she was wearing odd socks and one of them was green, it's Mhm. nothing to do with drawing the graph of distance against time. So what are the important points in that ? That they set off neck and neck. Okay set off neck and neck. Right. Alright. Then Janet took the lead then overtaken ten seconds later. Mhm. Then built up a lead of fifty metres. Right. And so she behind all the way but caught up with her a few metres Before the end. before the end. Oh just before the finish, fifty metres from the finishing line. And then Janet overtook her just before the finishing line. Right. So all this about the North Rose Trophy and it's just When you see You f you said you felt like panicking. Yeah. You're in middle of an exam, you're trying to do everything very quickly, and there's a great long screed of text Mm. to plough your way through. Erm so get sort of practise reading it so you can cut out the irrelevant stuff. And a good thing as I say is to just erm highlight the stuff that you want if you've Yeah. got a highlighter, or maybe underline it, and maybe even cross out. Yeah. Because you rea you're going to read this about three or four times aren't you? Yeah. before you understand what on earth is going on here. They started off neck and neck. They started off together. Okay. This one goes in the lead and then stops and then the other one goes in the lead and then she puts a spurt on and catches up. You'll read that sort of round and round a few times before you get it straight in your head what's Yeah. going on, and you don't need all this garbage in it as well. So your first time through you can cut some of that stuff out, and then you've got it. You've got the bones of the problem. Then you can work with it. Erm so do you think you got it sorted out roughly? Even I mean you didn't quite get it sorted out in the exam but No. did you think that you know what you've done wrong now, Yeah. and how to do it? Yeah. There's there is often something on distance time graphs and also quite often it's like that. Now I think that's not a maths question. No. No. That's an English question. Yeah. I mean if you I don't know if you know of anyone whose standard of English is quite poor No. but their maths are okay. Mm. Now that's quite an unfair question. Cos if they can't read through a lot of text and sort it out they haven't got much chance . No. They just sit there mesmerized for half an hour and then Right time's up. Okay. So you're alright on trine time train Yeah. train timetables. Mm? You just draw a line of best fit you know line of best fit through erm all the points well Okay. the one that goes nearest the majority of points. One goes nearest the majority of points. Okay. So if you've got a load of points all here Mm. and there's one stray off here, you'd go through that way, the line of best fit. Ignore any strays. Mm. Okay. How about the gradient of the line? That's like the average what is it it's a Distance so it's the average speed that's been travelled throughout the journeys. Mm. Erm the gradient of a line okay, there's a there's a bit of graph paper. Okay X is and there's a line. What's its gradient? Erm the change in the Y Okay it so change in the It it's so measure measure the gradient of that and tell me what it is. I'll make it so they're nice and e even. Now you said you'd make it even. Yeah. What did you mean by that? Oh t I had two point nine by three Mm. by seven point nine. Okay. The one you made nice and easy was the nice and even was the Y. Yeah. Which one are you going to divide by? The Y, so change in Y over change in X so Mm. You're going to divide by the X . Oh yeah, best off doing the Yeah. It doesn't matter cos you can . . Better get rid of that line yeah. Probably pencil . Okay. And what does that come to roughly ? It's about erm two point eight. Right. Two point eight Seven centimetre. So that's erm . . What's what's the units? I don't know it's just whatever the Well what have you done? What did you do? Oh I cha I divided Y over You divided Divided the change in Y So many millimetres Yeah. by another number of millimetres Oh right, oh millimetres that's it yeah . and what's the answer? Erm millimetres . Millimetres divided by millimetres is what ? Yeah it's millimetres square. Millimetres erm the other one. What is it? Erm What's X divided by X? One. Er one X. Just X. Just one. It's just millimetres . No it's just one. It's not millimetres, it's nothing. It's just a number. So that's just millimetres then yeah . It's millimetres divided by milli No, it's not millimetres. No this . The answer is not in millimetres. The answer is just a number. Oh right. It's a ratio of one length to another. Okay? Yeah. Find the ratio of that height to that length. Mm. Okay. And let's say it's a third. Mm. It's not a third of metre, a third of a millimetre or a third of a kilometre, it's just a third, the ratio of that length to that one. Okay? I see. So the ratio of that length to that one is point four. But the gradient the gradient of the hill erm you could express it in terms of an angle couldn't you? Yeah. If I say, Is that hill very steep? Ooh yes, about forty degrees. So if we look at this Twenty five. Twenty five. Find the tan of twenty five degrees. It won't be in centimetres or millimetres, it'll just be a number . Two point four six. Right. Six three . That's a much more accurate way of finding the gradient. . Just find the tan of the angle. You don't have to measure. You've got two measurements here. This two point eight isn't accurate. No. It's what, plus or minus point one almost. Yeah. I mean point one of a millimetre's not much. You could be almost well you could at least plus or minus point O five. Yeah. Right. Which is a big percentage that you're And both of these could be out. One could Yeah. be too big and one could be too small, which would make a big difference. But you can measure the angle pretty accurately on that to s to within say half a degree and have its tan. Right yeah . Erm because there's your angle,there's that, and this is opposite over adjacent. So the gradient it's a ratio it's not no units to it, not metres millimetres or anything else, and it's the tan of the angle. So the gradient gives you a mea If I gave you the gradient, if I said the gradient is one, what would the angle be? Erm How would you find the angle? Just one and then do the tan backwards. Okay tan to the minus one . five. So there's a that's that's what gradient means, the tie-up between them. It's not In some cases like erm the diagram you were doing about the two girls running,erm then the distance against time gradient will give you speed, give you velocity. We've done the Roses,you're okay on the symmetry, you know about that now. Yeah. I mean if if it hadn't got a ,there's noise in the problem there's Yeah. irrelevant stuff. If you if you you strip it down to the Actually I didn't know how to do the arc . I wasn't sure how to do that. Okay. But you know now. Erm That was pretty st that the height of just a bit of It's a bit of algy and a bit of pythagoras Yeah. in together. And the area. What is how about that one? What is the square root of six point four by ten to the ten to the five? Well erm eight hundred but when I did it wrote it into normal terms like six point sixty four with one two three four noughts Mm. and then I square rooted it. Mm. Erm yeah, I square rooted it. Okay. Yeah that's a good way to do it. Mm slightly more easier for you is just multiply it by one of those tens so you've got sixty four by ten to the four. The square root of sixty then take the square root of Eight. The square root of the sixty four is eight, the square root of the ten to the four ten squared. Oh right yeah. Yeah. Erm okay. It's a good way to do it to if you think, Oh I can't really handle this going on here, put all your noughts on and then you can work out what they come to. Okay. Erm weather stations near the north pole. we should start ringing alarms bells a little bit. So what did you do for this one? Right I measured well it's seven kilometres apart so I measured the distance between them. Ah. Mm? Erm in centimetres or millimetres . And it came to five. It wasn't seven centimetres eh ? No so it's And it should have been shouldn't it? fifty millimetres. Right. Okay, so you worked out what the scale was. Yeah. And then what did you do? Erm I so it was for one So seven kilometres is equal to fifty millimetres. Mhm. I did erm Yeah. So you seven work out your scale that comes to So seven over five. And then what did you do for this next bit? It knows it's between four and three kilom kilometres away. Yeah. So er point seven one er is equal to one kilometre. Mhm. So work out the Yeah. So four kilometres so multiply point seven one by four. Yeah. You worked out what that would be and then on the one the scale and then what did you do ? Yeah I worked out what this would be on the scale. that's from T so I dr drew a line a cir a circumference . A circle. Right. So I did round there. Yeah. and a smaller one round there. Right. So you work out . what the scale is so you can set your radius and draw your two circles and say, It's in there somewhere. Yeah. Okay. That should get full marks. Yeah. Bit . Mm. Erm er that trig trigonometry there again. Mhm. And then er just work out the length of this and then the length of that and then subtract these two lengths. So that's quite a nice question. Erm Seven marks on that. Okay. Transformation. You alright on the transformation? Yeah. Yeah. You've been doing those alright haven't you . . Ah. Mm. How many of those can you get out of one of those eh? Erm How many mugs of water to fill the tank? . Okay. So you cal calculate the volume. Yeah. That one's no problem. Yeah. You think, Right I've done that with me fish tank. That one. What did you do for that? Erm I used the equation sheet which he wri wrote on the board. Right. Okay which would have been on the front of your paper . Yeah but he we didn't have any Right so as soon as you see that you think, Ah volume of a cylinder, I know, whee! straight to the front. Look at it and then erm measured it I did I d and then I redid this one and put it in the same scale, Yeah. and then erm the answer I got for this Mm. So divided it by that. you what did you you used centimetres here did you? Yeah. Right. Good. Because that thing you did with the fish tank has shown Yeah. you that you can't say, Well one centimetre is a hundredth of a metre so No. one cubic centimetre's going to be a hundredth of a cubic metre. it's obvious. It's not it might be obvious but it's not true. Okay that that's the big thing they're looking for there. Convert it to the same units, use the formula and then I mean that's a gift that isn't it? Yeah. Mm? Six marks there for nothing really. Imagine them all bringing their mugs to fill the tank . Mm. Now you've got to rework it again in cubic metres Yeah. and work out how many seconds. There's nine marks on that Yeah. really a gift wasn't it? Yeah I mean it's a it would be a joy to do it as well cos you think, I know how to do these. Yeah isn't this easy, this is relaxing. Okay. Erm I think you know there how to pick up quite a few Quite a few more marks yeah. quite a few marks without you learning anything No. that you don't know already. Yeah? Yeah It's just sort of looking at 'em a bit. Erm the geometry one that we didn't look at,you might be able to spot it in minutes, Yeah. you know seconds even. You might be still on it twenty minutes later. Yeah. So keep it for the end and keep it for when you've not only done all the questions but had a quick check through to see have Yeah. you done something daft. Yeah. Cos that's where the marks are thrown away. Not Yeah. not something you can't do but something you've done ten times before. You just make a one silly mistake like. And you just think you know you like you've put metres instead of centimetres on the the hosepipe or something like that and you think, Oh that's not right, that you will spot . Like when you write a letter and you read it through and you think, Ooh I've missed a word out here, Mm. or I've you know run two words in together or something. So that few minutes at the end is important for picking up these extra marks you've been trying to throw away,okay, where you can do it, and the few minutes at the beginning is to look through and find that question wherever it was, that one on the last page. Lot of marks going for it, dead ea And again it's a s it's a joy to do this sort isn't it. Yeah. Cos you can see where you're going all the way through, Yeah. you know that you know it it's nice It's just like nice and easy. and you feel really confident about it, you think, Wow this is piling up the marks . So look for the good ones don't spend too much t There'll only be one little geometry thing Yeah. fiddling about with triangles and circles and stuff like that. So have a go And it's only about two or three five marks. Exactly. So have a go at it when you've done the others. Okay. Well I'd better get off. another one to get to soon. That's mine. That's yours. Right. Practise with that protractor, Yeah. so that you get used to it so that you prefer to use it to the other one. Have have have both , but if you've got bearings It easy to b better . use that . If someone gives you a polygon to draw Yeah. Use that cos it's not not fiddling Yeah. around twisting it. I mean in the time is takes you to do a sketch you can draw accurately Be easier to . draw round it,dot dot dot,draw even if you then sketch it without using a straight line, if you just join up the dots freehand , Yeah. you get a very good sketch and you can see what's going on and you can see the angles. . That's your one. Erm Next week. What's happening about that? Where are we ? I'm on holiday then so er You're on holiday. Right. Yeah. Okay. So is that for What about the week after that? Erm no I think I've got about two weeks off. Okay, so I'll see you erm So we break up on Wednesday that's Friday Friday, So three Fridays. Three Fridays. Yeah.. So I'll see you in about I'd better work out what the date is. Erm Can have a look on the calendar in there. Okay. And probably be an idea if you remind me sometime during that week when I'm due to see you. Alright yeah I'll give you yeah . Just give me a just give me a ring. But er we'll we'll skip the next three then. Alright yeah. Okay. I better remember my tape recorder. Okay. Erm I've found out when the exam is. Yeah? It's erm right at the end of the month of the rest of the exams. Okay. So erm Yeah it's well well at the end of the month. So have you got what's what's the best Do you want Ovaltiney now Aye. Ovaltiney drink ! Do want some tea? There's Carina. Has granny much to say to you? She's gone. Bye bye, Carina. Here! Where's my watch? Dad! What's wrong? Martin. Do you not want ? Never a Never a what? I'm just thinking about them. Don't forget I see you every day! Fucking square! You know . No! Yes, you get the ball! Stop that whingeing in my ear! That was right in my ear! See that? That was right head there! I don't think that's very nice, come on! So you don't notice any difference at all. More! More! In the kitchen. More! Fetch your valium in. I'll have a look at it. I wish you would. Oh! He's took . Wish you would away to speak properly. Pat? What? I shall remember that on my D day anyway. Aye. What was the last there? about Benny. Look at there, all the police! Not so bad both ends. Mm. both ends should come down here. What the hell is this? Dunno. This looks nice. So you're going in tomorrow you're off. Aye. Work back on Friday. Yeah. Well Callam needs something . I'm gonna see him Next Wednesday. Wednesday. Thursday, Friday I'm going back on back off again Saturday and Sunday. I'll have . Alright. It goes into Central there. Saw a job in the Crest for today, you know the wee place? But now I'm waiting see where they'll have to go. Should be some Mrs . Will you their dinners? What? You never looked at me all the day. That's probably why I've been getting low but it's something funny.. Now look what you've done! Who's that? Daddy. Yeah. Who's that? Baby. Who's that? Er er er Mummy. Mummy Daddy. Daddy Nanny Mummy. Daddy. Daddy. Mummy. Daddy. That's Daddy. Daddy. Daddy! Mummy. Mummy! Daddy. Here's the cat. Call the cat. Cat! That's right. Now call the dog. There's the dog. Call the dog. Eh? No. Roll up the shoes. Clothes,cold. Apple. What is it? Oh the ! There's a chair. Oh look! There's a cake. There's a, a horse. Get up. Aye. Where's your shoes? Those are curtains. There's a hat. Oh look at the flowers! Oh!. Oi! Ball. Ah. Ball. I remember in the Post Office Ball. the day I went there and turned round and just screamed! There was a big queue, big queue in the Post Office with him I was coming out well when we we got to this turned round and saw her, he'd scream even more Aye that's and as you it's typical! it was really . But, but she you could buy her a . She's always having one of these tantrums. he thought she would. Daddy! Ah! Oh! Ah ah ah ah! Daddy. Daddy. Daddy. Who's that? Daddy. Daddy. Who's that? Er Mummy. Er It's a boy. What is it? John was saying, Pat Good! looking for something Good! . Boy. Daddy. Mummy, that's mummy. See there Mummy. That's daddy, never mind, but who's that there? Mummy. Mummy. Good boy! Ah! And there's a wee baby! Ah! A wee baby! Baby. Dog. Who's that? A cow. No, that's a cat. Cat. Cat. Good! Who's that? Daddy. That's daddy. And who's that there? Baby. Baby. A boy. Say boy. Say girl, say girl. Girl. Goo Say girl. Baby. Oh a baby! Baby. It's a dog. Do Cat. Cat. Cat. Cat. Good, good! Who's that? Daddy. Yeah. So where is daddy? Daddy is Mummy. Daddy. Mummy. And Daddy. Boy. Say boy. Ba Girl. Girl. Say girl. Girl. Gi Dog. And what's that? Cat. What's that? Look! Quickly! What's that? Shoe. Apple. No. Orange. Orange. Banana. Oh a lovely flower! Er Smell the flower, Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's a ball. Smell the lovely flower. Ah. Flower. Ball. Ball, yeah that's your ball. Nanny. Nanny. Orange. Orange. Orange. Yeah. Well call Carnel. Carnel! Call Carnel. Carnel! Carnel! Carnel! Call Sharon! Sharon! No! No! Oh! Mu What? Mu Mu Da Dog. Dad. Cat. Ice cream! Mm mm mm! yeah. Ice cream. Yeah. Apple. What is it? Ap Apple. It's a dog. Mm. Mm! Mm mm mm mm mm mm! Mm. Mm! Ice cream. What is it? Mm. An ice cream. Mm. Banana. Cat. There's a cat! What is it? Say cat. Ice cream. Mm mm mm mm! Mm. Mm, mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm! Ice cream! Mm mm mm mm mm mm yum yum yum yum yum yum yum yum yum yum yum yum yum yum! Ice cream! Mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm! Ice cream! Mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm! Mm! Do you like ice cream? Mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm! Mm! What's that? Dog. Cat. Yeah. Ice cream. Ball. Ball. Ball. Ball. Ball. Mm mm mm! Mm! Mm! Mm! Mm! Mm! Mm mm mm! Mm mm mm mm mm mm mm! Mm! No! Ball. Ball. Ball. Ball. Mm. Mm mm mm mm mm. Mm. Mm. Mm. Mm. Ma ah ah! Daddy! Daddy! Hello !. Dee dee dee, dee dee dee dee, dee dee dee dee dee, dee dee dee ! What is she meant to think about ? Pauline? Ah yea yea yea yea yea yea! Ah, yea yea yea yea yea yea yea! Yea yea yea yea yea yea yea yea! Yea! Ooh ooh ooh ooh! Ooh ooh! Ooh! Ooh ooh! you didn't tell me it was on yet. Will you, shall I take her up tonight? If she'll let me. What? She might let me to take her out in a minute. Who's that? Come on here girl and get your nappy on! It's in that wee box. Take that to daddy. Give it to daddy. Oh! I can, come on! It's dad, er er! Okay. dee diddle ee dee dee dee, diddle dee dee diddle dee ! Where you going love? No! Ah! Daddy. Dad, look! See you in your boots! Sticking up your . You should glued together! Yeah. Yes love ? Ah. Ah. Ah. No, you're to go to bed. Who's that? Dad. Who's that? Girl. Girl, say girl. Girl. Boy. Say boy. Boy. Mummy. Say mummy. Daddy. Ah. That's . That wasn't funny! Yeah. Go easy now, mummy's . Mummy! Mm! Ice cream! Mm! Mm! Mm! Mm! Lovely ice cream! Mm mm! Mm! No! Blue ball. Ball. Mm mm! Mm! Mm mm! Put that nappy off her. Get that nappy off, quick! Get this nappy off your tum now! Come here. Put them in the, beside it. horsey! Daddy. Come on, get this on! Good girl! Lay down, I'll read you a story. Can daddy read your book? Let me see. Dog! See a dog in the book? Cat. Da Can you say daddy? Daddy. Mummy. Mummy. Mummy! Woof woof woof! Nanny! It's dog. It's horsey, horsey, ho! It's horsey, ho! And where's your socks? Oh oh oh! Where's yo , is your socks? There? Oh you left them over here. What are they doing there then? There, there, there, there, there. There. Where's your boots? Go and get them. Go and get them. Go and get them. Got you! Stand up. Wee ee ee! Ee! Go and find your socks will you? Mm! Mm mm mm mm mm! Be ca , you're gonna fall! Mm mm mm! Mm mm mm mm mm mm! Oh! Oh! You're getting too heavy! Ah ah ah! Ah! Ah! Ah! Ah! That's sore! Go on away you scallywag, you! Just look at your mouth! Ah! Ah! Ah! Ah! tt tt Okay you said it, it's nearly over. Cos if you wanna wa , we'll watch Buster it makes no, no difference to me. Oh. I don't mind. It was only just washed and ironed that even on you. What's the one you washed, this? Yeah. It's alright I'll wear . It's only washed and ironed yesterday. I know, but it'll be a day washed. Well don't . Eh? I thought you were gonna keep it nice. Where? In my pocket! What is it then? It's a plug,in my pocket. . Pocket. What? I wish you would be careful! Oh good! Shall I have a look and see what's on? I don't need You're not. Oh I am! Why? Here, above the garage. Have you any money? I'm not and I bought last night! Meaning, you bought last night, you never! Yes, I bought the Coke! Listen, you big shit! The er is so stupid! I get . Where's a book? There it is. Do you Go over want a beer or what? and read the book. Go on over to daddy and read the book. Come on and I'll you read you the story. No. Ah! Ah, ah, ah! Ah ah, oh! Ah ! Alright. Ah? Ah? Hard. Come here ! Oh oh! Sorry, you'll have to wait for daddy's clear. What? What? Brilliant these hand brushes! Yeah. You going to bed Lianne? Yeah. Are you going to bed love? Yeah. Yeah. Daddy. What love? Yeah. Yeah. You going to bed? Come on! You going to bed? Come on! Are you going to bed? You wee crab! You wee crab! Aren't you a crab! What? You say it to her. Are you going to bed Lianne? Yeah. Bed. Go on,gi Okay. er give mummy, away and give mummy a kiss. Give mummy a kiss goodnight. You'll have to let get all the way. Come on ! It stinks! Clinging on this bloody bit! Give me a kiss ni-night! She's knows you'll try and lift her. Ni-night! Alright! Ni-night love! Ah ah! Ah ah! Ah! Ah ah ah ah! Is Molly going to bed? Mo Ah ah ah. Yes. Yeah. You wan , you want a beer in the end? Ah ah. You want a beer? She'll just say yes, that's a ! Give a wave bye bye to mummy. Bye bye! Daddy. I know you're going with your daddy. Night night! Wave bye bye to mummy. I'm not going Night night! it didn't seem last night had to take it off her See you ni-night Lianne! See you in the morning? Wave bye bye to mummy! You'll have to let go of the book. I know. Bye bye! Bye bye! Daddy! Are you going to wave? Ni-night! You gonna wave? Aha. Are you gonna wave? Yes. Eh? Are you? Are you tired Lianne? Are you? She's still odd isn't he? She always working! She's not really odd! She doesn't really talk or Ah! anything. But I've seen the wee girls stop at Eileen's saying And, oh she has , that's what I mean, she's she's odd now. She has to ask if she's been to ? Works . No, it's confidential and properly cos she'll want some of it back. No she won't! Have your lunch and get a bath then go to bed. But I'm not that tired. Just, get a bath and then got to bed. Sleeping in the bed at quarter to two, I left you at two. No you didn't . I left at ten to two. She got in the bed to watch Neighbours and we came back about five o'clock and I went up the stairs, the T V was and he was erm out for count, so I left them for another hour and I said to mum Yeah, but I meant leave them while she has a lot of sleepless nights. Shame and God bless you cos and hurry up! Going to the all night party? He did. Beans? Who's been ousted out? It isn't open till Friday night. Yeah, December. And now he's threatening everybody written off. They're all just trying to push them in for free. No. If, somebody turns your T V off and says what did you watch on T V, Neighbours a , what did you do after that? I just lay here so you can them from Neighbours was on now. No. At six o'clock. Ha! The monopoly was stolen. Mm. Mhm. Billy. Mm. Look at all that! Incredible! What? Get a load of that! What changed it? They're like another hair. Can you not Gee! see this? Gee! I was just With your backside, how did you know? Yeah, well I wouldn't step in that dear! What do you think of her hair? It's not bad? It's better than it was don't you think so? I'd rather have it anyway. David? It's without her isn't it? That's her Aye. Maybe that's it. Kicking her, her the Kicking her opponent! the other way was very bad! I picked a on Status Quo. Helen,kick her back ! Now they're letting them in. No. Suppose she let the . She's nicely dressed for once She's very ca thirsty I would imagine. And have to watch So would you second and th keep it? No, I just want to see who's coming. She's coming down to cut you and she might get her hair cut. What? Oh you went round. when, we had to have mi mine cut last week. Where's tonight? Let me try that hair band on. He's away for some time. He's we Christ ! It hasn't been washed! What is something wrong with him ? Sorry! Ooh! What? Somehow we bought her a, bought ourselves the wrong ones. Yeah, well you took the , mm! It's you actually. No, it's the only one we bought together. Bought it back the other night there. Could be sacrificial love me! What? What? Hey, you're stupid! Stop it Heather! I'm waiting for the matches. Heather's a winner again ! Do keep on that bright crap! The T V's fucking crap! I say what's that Playbus? Playbus or something. I thought dad was getting the paint? We were out shopping a dust sheet and whatever, and I was gonna paint my room. No, paint the ceiling. Emulsion it. Aha. You, no point in us getting that, you're room's not really ready to get painted yet. Who said that? Well I'm going to bed. What's this on? Your dad says it's not ready to be papered? No, nothing. When was your room done last? Rou , round about Christmas was it? What started Richard's room getting painted? I don't know. I thought you was watching television? Richard just wanted red paint. Get us a Cola or something. I asked . Sharon's away, Sharon's meant to decide but we haven't heard from her yet. I'm not going to hers. What? Collected all my tutoring to get some . I don't know. And then she's thinking of ! She sounds peculiar! That is on, you're just taping tape, tape. Right! Er that's right. Tape what? Tape this side. I think it was Oh! If I have this Aha. that's your birthday. Yeah, but you do. That'll be lovely! Piece Aha. by piece and but you'll have enough as head dress. Exactly!. How lo , how long as that room been done? I know you've had this question before. And she's gonna ask me again! Was, your room one of the first ones to be done Heather? Aha. Luckily, in our guest room The room was done whenever she, the room was made for her! Ah, was it as long ago as that? How many years have I lived there? What? How many years have I lived there? Nine, coming. Nine! Is that right? Mm! Didn't know it was that long. Well maybe it it's it's, when you were only eleven, that's why there's pink clouds! No, but I mean I'm not eleven any more and I don't like pink clouds anymore. What do you fancy then? I don't know. I don't care! Just something like cheap wallpaper here. Ah? Just something like cheap . say to mum. Oh yeah, a kind of . Now that we're talking to Anne and er she wants it pink. Do you think she might like yours then? Samuel said this to her? What do you think? Maybe some jeans and a jacket ? Peach, and she can maybe have some grey and some blue . Blue . What was big Frank er, Frank saying? How much he liked about my hair. . Go on, on inside there! Go on on! A big scarer so he is! It's not bad. Well, I got other friends, you know. Ha? Just the way he talks. Aye. He walks in college and like , he'll go oh sorry! Oh! Just watch you girls don't get used. Incidentally . He was there whenever I used And as for you with getting dead set that that I would just ! I'm saying nothing! Don't really want to. Why? An urgent . . Aha. I think it's actually numbered. Well like she she Her her that was she's had it last week. I'm just gonna And she says push, and push, and I'd like her job . And here cos you can't say anything and eventually it'll be . Have to apply first. In the first place What are you having? What? Have you got time to get off? That's right. Oh well. I can't believe it!like that. Erm I have a good Who do you believe? In, in getting off. Yeah. You know. I have not said sorry but I forgot. And it was like it's so stupid! As we were saying so many are wishful. Who's birthday? Yeah. Hey? Do you know what I mean now? I'm packed. Ought to come to bed and turn it off . What was you saying? What will you get her? Not that mu much. I can't afford it. I wo , I can't. I think I'll actually have to get a sub see my wage cheque. And I have to, maybe even twenty five pound, but I don't have any money. Nor have I. I'm broke. I know, but I'm to buy two birthday presents I just don't have thirty. That's what I had against my discount that way you can you got a gift for this person you give to them plus erm Well erm but if you're, what if you're actually going to step on it you may as well be at work for the day. Rather be in a . Would, wouldn't we all! You might as well. You're gonna be off for a week because Yeah. she's off the again. But, I know which What are you gonna do with two days I have you're there. I'm just going to get drunk! Are you? I mean you're company. I could even like call for you, like . What do you mean ? You're gonna be there. Alan, I don't think they're being rude. I don't dare stop for that wants to be away from him. That's right. There's too. Does Paddy ever come down? Paddy ends up coming round to my place! This is where . They're playing your song. Oh yeah. That's right. Yeah. Well what can I do. Just down there. Is Kelly not leaving that on? Right! Well I'll go in here. You go in and sit down. Yes. Spend it here. Spent that card in here. Then I'll go home. Okay. Right! Well we'll see you later then. Alright. Right, bye! Bye! La la la, la mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm . Oh well. Are you there? What? I didn't finish it today. Ha? You went to that place and all? Yeah. somebody's already gone looking for you. Well they asked for you, and your name, and I said no you weren't in, and then said we're looking for Joanne. And I don't know where th , we thought Joanne was with you too. I never thought , I I never asked him his name either. Well it's just It was a man? on his own. It was a man. And I said, I thought you'd gone. Sounded about twenty five-ish, somewhere around . It might have been Joanne's dad, I Could have been Robert. Robert? I wonder if she'd asked for him over at her house. Why, where was he? You don't know. Robert. Robert might have been up in the house. He just, I think he had my num Who's Robert? Her brother. No, it, no it wasn't her brother. No it was definitely it was some twenty I don't think it was. decidedly a bit more It's been useful for their maintenance. Yeah. if if you know their . what I mean. What? Well it was wasn't just a brother he just sounded too Och! Don't talk a lot of rubbish! Hold on. In fact, I better not phone No, don't. Because erm You're not phoning? No, just leave them because her dad and all will probably be in bed now anyway, so You have to watch, make sure you're getting the stones out of it. What? The jam, the jam, the jam. I think my jam has been. No, I I think it would be a wee bit more personal than, than, than just brotherly love and that. I really do. He sa sounded alright, like you know. Bit of a, bit of a, bit of a brogue. Might have been her daddy even. No it wasn't her dad. What,Hello, is Joanne there ? Eh? Hello, is Joanne there ? No, no, no, no, no. I bet it was Robert. No, no, no. Look you, stop it! Cut it out! Yeah, was David, was David working and all? No. No . Ah ah ha ha ha, ha ha ha ha ha . Mm. He had a bit of a brogue ring or something. No, seriously? Ah? I am Was it? serious! The only one I could think of would be Robert er, cos he's sort a erm, he's a bit of a broguey sort a I spoke to him quite a bit you know. Why? Were you Cos you answered the phone. Aargh! And who was it? I don't know! He didn't say, and I says can I take a message? We didn't give him the message. Oh aye , asked for you and I said weren't there. And then he said Sort of, sort of funny voice? then asked for Joanne. Sort of throat sort of,is Helen there ? He was, no. tt Why? For Goodness sake! I just wondering who it is. Curious now to see who phoned. Manda or anything phone for me? No one except him, no. Move those batteries anyway ,jus Excuse me. Who's batteries? I don't know who's batteries they are. Are these ? Batteries. Well move them to there. Are you gonna take it off that as ? Yeah. No, I haven't put that there. Have you got one? Mine are in the garden and they're not even Well take snips off them. I can't snip them when there's nothing of them. You can! Well you snip them at the growing time. It's only a stick! Well that's all they are, a stick! Well they'll grow. You know I years ago I had a twig you know, an ordinary twig, I stuck it into the ground after three long years, all that was was a stick! Yeah. Obviously. And but it was starting to grow and it's still only a stick, and it's got a bud on the top . So the stick will bud. Did you ask David about any cleaning stuff? He didn't have anything. But it's still only one stick, there's nothing . It's just a stick! And people have said to me, what's that Michael? I say, it's a stick! I'm growing a stick! What's that interesting plant you've got there? It's a stick! Mm! Well everyone kept saying wha , what's that there? Aye, I know. It's a stick. I think we'll take it out now. But it'll be a bit of a shame because in you know Probably flower or something. in a couple of years it never done a thing and now it's growing. Mhm. Every way I'll take a look at that as well. Who's that for? No, that's your piece! Oh! Mum! Left your piece! Well I said That there her piece! She's a she's a bugger! Bean What? Bean . What? A bean . Oh right! And your piece. Oh,from mum, oh you left your pushchair boy! Go on! Go on! Left your piece! Got your push bike? Yo got your push bike boy! Like, there's a guy that rings up in work Hello ha! And I say, hello. He says, well how yous a going? I'm doing fine. Your fine? Oh, ye how down there, boy I'm telling you you don't know what you lo , you townies don't, just don't know what work is. You're going like how you doing? Erm li You'll work in that place and what, are yous are. No, not at all. Ah, you townies don't know about how, don't know ha wai that,yo , eh, eh eh eh eh eh. You can't even know what he's saying. When's Jackie start? Probably after Easter. Pardon? Probably after Easter. Probably? File clerk. I am, ah There's a play going erm to the There's a good thing on the King's Hall tonight. Aye, I know that. The Highwaymen. Th That'll be on the . The Highwaymen. The Highwaymen is on at the That's Willie Nel movies. It's Willie Nelson and everything. That's quite good isn't it? Willie Nelson and all. Mhm. No, this is in the you and Joanne would probably enjoy that in the museum play based on a book wrote by the guy who went I heard that, Murphy. Aha. Stay right there! Mm. Then ! But, I didn't realize it'd be here That's a noose! but it's a play. Then yes. Well in that apparently it's very good! I thought it looked quite good. See the, the guy that was in the middle, was, he had the beard. No, And the doctor said, didn't he Aha. that nothing rude would ever happen to me again. He was the one, he was the guy that was in a Slice of Saturday Night. Last week, down the Arts. He Aha. was the one doing a Slice of Saturday Night. Ha, he was in that too. I thought that would have been a good night in the King's Hall tonight. And I That probably . Yeah. Seamas was going. What? Aha. He was getting tickets. I know, but there's still tickets there tonight. I'm sure you could have got tickets at the door if you had wanted them early. Someone's probably anybody buying or selling their ticket? No, but I would say that er, play would be addressing you know, well no say, probably you accepted them for face value to the ticket doesn't say it is. Mhm. Probably be alright. Yeah. You all would interrogated and all the rest of it. Yeah. Go and bring your in you'll never get it out of here. Aye, that's right. Mm mm. Great that is! I don't expect Yeah. I'd love to even to Well I ride a horse for I believe, I believe it's opening next week. Mm Oh is it? Mhm. Even though something . Oh! I didn't even know like But it It's next Tuesday. Erm it's opening? I don't know. I hadn't heard anything about it. Oh! I don't know anything about horses. David's coming round children . It's very highly acclaimed. I think I'll use it. And they're doing it fo for five weeks of the year . There's been road for a long, long time now. He was crossing wires in . Yeah. That's the sort of, kinda thing that,the two things that you . You couldn't do anything! What? Sure I went to the Arts and everything and stuff. Oh! Wasn't in the pantomime? Mhm. I was in Aladdin, sure! A few years ago. It's not that. Yes, but mum, I couldn't just go back and do like every show! I'm not saying that. They go around. They're using the arts. They use the arts. They use their arts. And they use Bangor, little fair of Bangor. Aha. I think Who's this? it's It's the Harberton The Harberton The Ulster Operatic use th erm no, but I mean, I a , because I wasn't a member it was like one show was okay, and the pantomime as well. But I mean, you really have to be, like, a member before like if you were starting to like, want to do all the shows they'd want you No, but I mean , no one ever really does all the shows. I know. But say,ma , maybe if you did the pantomime and then the next one coming up I mean er er er,th , I think they'd actually ask you like, your membership money. What's the what do you actually do this for? No, it's a, as I enjoyed it. You can take . Well something other than just to talk about other than just the normal run of road things. You know I do this. Well you didn't watch our Studio One on last night. was on. ? Is he a big guy? Aye, that was on. Oh what's he like? He's like a big turkey! Well then you wanna see I don't think that's his son. It is his son. It is his son. It is! I know his daughter-in-law. I,wha when I went to they were quite young and they were toffs there never heard of them. The dad? No, the son. And, and er Oh, the son. all night, and, they weren't married yet and they would cost all of her bloody . Well you know the they reckon that the best damn studio now in Britain! Oh! So there you are. T V's working. I enjoyed it but that was not the right one it was just proper room where er you where you used to every night of the week . She used to cheer us up . But he that's . Wouldn't take you out of the because he'd go up there. I always remembered. I thought , well she's . She could ma , she can make you dance. I've been to see him. Mhm. Definitely would be a technique. You could never dance with a . I remember the day we went. Oh yeah. Oh, we were sitting there amazed! Me, Fiona and Richard all sitting. How's the taxis? Stra strange. In Galbally it says! Aye, that's the new one in Galbally now. But, they burnt out one there was We have had a right . No. Like the B and Q store . Mm! They are quite dear that Quick Cut people . Well they're not saying you've gotta . I suppose. I don't really know. There you are. How the but I looked at the . . He travels home from work he sits down are you fucking me about a bit? And, she says, just me and I think I'll keep it. But he he I would like to, I would like to try it. Well it's alright for a while but that's alright for a wee while now. He's a de , a dead nice bloke. You know, very very doesn't put himself above anybody else, airs and graces and all, when you see him. Speaks very politely. Very nice man. Very, very great business acumen sometimes I wo , I can er but if you just come . Mm. . He has no family. But er, in a way he is . Mm! When are you gonna do it all? So what did his dad say ? Good God! He wrote out another one but his dad reckons he was saying . We found it on the back . That T V is rubbish! He'll be the missing the job now. . Off the . Mm? His house or and saying I'll be . Isn't that strange ! I really . That looks near . See Simon picture in the Telegraph? Oh no! I'll go and get you it. I forgot about his wedding day on Saturday you know. I know. You were in town weren't you? You were working. I was working. Mm. And Richard was working then as well. I had remembered about it but it's just I had no chance of getting there. I'll go and get the picture. I didn't remember about it. No. I'll go and get the picture. He just is, just totally different to what I remember him being like. Oh right. Let's see. Simon . Did you go out with him? No just friends. Quick! Where's the Tel ? Sorry ! all our days. La da, da da . What was it,just said he puts his mouth on the telly ! What was it? It's the way that What was he saying? Power to all our friends . In a wee deep voice, and he were er er,Power Why? to . Cos that so song was popular at the time ! It wasn't, was it? Zero four nine from base. How long, when will he be back in? Over. What? What's wrong? Don't tell her about No,. Oh! What's your name? Sure enough! But di did you go to . Where did you go? Sammy. We just went down around town. Why? Going round to see this Sammy afternoon did you not? I did. I got round just as Around town. Well no, I bought that , we'll still stay. Oh! So Already . Ah. I'll have to watch you . Have to get a job. Aye. Well, did you tell him? Ha? What? Did you say anything ? It's where you're staying if you were rich. No I don't think so. . Bye! Going out? What? I keep saying No mum said. Ah yeah. Christmas shopping and he said and er . Lisa. No, I've got something to do. Let's hide them. Oh! You ask Polly. With one another and then going off to Mm. .What? No. That's fine. Yeah. ? There's a couple there. So where does this go? Did you cancel? I've turned on the other tape there. Oh on the tape. Oh! So, what do we have to say then? Oh! Things like, you have to . Aha. I knew was coming. Alright. You know! So how are you Leonora? Well, well, how are you? I I, I'm looking for a blade. A blade. Why, what do you want blade for? You gonna do your wrists over me at all? Oh dear! Sure! Dear old Charlie! What a dear! That covers too. Who? That's George? Erm What? Frank, Frank needs three boxes of fifteen mils and three boxes down. could I have about forty bottles of the er The Dom Curie Yeah. Well I don't know what he's saying! There you are. That's great! So do you want this in the car ready? What And. car? Your car that you're gonna get. Volvo, yes. It's a Volvo. You're getting a new Volvo. car? Yes, we have heard it's gonna be a black B M W. Yeah, well it's gonna be a black B M W. Pretty good! Come down next and it won't be on the Honda. It's the new look. Oh God! Aye, doesn't sh doesn't she know that? You look awful! So I don't know. I'll have to get the motorbike. Because it'll spoil erm Oh God! I just couldn't believe it! Yeah. But I mean That was packed sort of like for ages though. to come. Do you know the heart, do yo do you know if a heart Yes. these are practically . More like it's gonna be Easter. Sure when you make nobody . There's no ties or anything. You don't know. Wo wo wo well you could be just like it. So there has been, well I mean, that's probably what's going round cos that way it's going into the fire as well. Mm. Can you smell it? No. So what's, what's he saying ? Well erm He's going into the actually. Yeah, that's it. Yeah, but has she got any kids? You said. No! I said well, why don't you call me the proper name, is it a ? I just say . Sorry? Ah, Sally . Sally . ? Sally . I give her well over three hundred pounds Who saw me? on Saturday. the bedroom. That's a fortune and all. Must be. So I said , and I said here one hundred pounds there. I think I'd it all And I said I said er or he said we could have it for twenty pound a month and we said Aha. some people perhaps and he said yeah we'll put something together. And I said, obviously cash it if it's no good. It's lucky I didn't say . Mm. He might. He said he doesn't catch cos I'll be I've, I'll have those right here for your so you're only paying twenty pounds bloody football bets aren't they! He started to laugh. Well she'll see or not. Is he always gonna be responsible? I don't bloody know! Well he slips me like hundreds ! Get me some of those will you And he, I said well sure get me some tomorrow What? Didn't he put a hundred pound on? I would just kill them! See that . I don't really know. I'll ask him. Ah. He will have pegged it. You know, and say has erm Dominic got er I don't know. ! Marvellous! Yeah. What? Yep, I speaks for him. Great! Well she said she was very nice. Ah, Paddy showed me. Oh! Is that bad? I don't know, he can be a ignorant Er, I don't know. But he was gonna have something . Why? , I don't like him. He, he says to me I don't like him. what did he say yesterday? I said he came and told me you know Oh yeah. Yeah, and I said he said something about going to the pictures so he's going on about it. So he said Joanne says . I think that's enough don't you? Yeah, but he's been doing really good! I said leave us a couple of small . Who's house is that? Dunno. Trish . Everywhere I go he's on my back! So, that cheek of the . And are they? Oh! Unless they're erm I said why, are you thinking of crossing us? Well you've gone onto social security but but after two weeks it's flew. I'd like to go back London. And er yeah. He'll have to pay a fine before he can pick up for it, this is Joanne, I don't but he must he must er be up to something. He said it's every single way because that's there must be a reason but he said they're not getting priority so we'll be left that he said Fuck his self then! I would say Jim, he'll be, he's very lucky he had a I was supposed to be . That's only all he said. He said I said one thing he's more rebellious. Yeah, that's right. Eh? . But erm that's the only other thing, there's nothing with wrong him. She says er but she said but they're just trying to work it out. Oh it's cold! Isn't it? I think there's something between Moira and he said surely he said why? I says and I get , no idea if you would kill . What's ? How long has Francy been here? Four years twenty months. Aha. I remember her coming here. Cos fifth year on Sunday . Next thing it's only for the year. And he went over and I . What's that? That's lovely! Mm. Lovely! Mhm. Alan said, he said And then, from then on things worked out. He's a nice feller. He is. I like him. I like Francy. He used a couple of them bits before if that's all the same to you. Colin ? You sure look . Who knows me? I suppose Ashley. He said, Johnny but because you know them I wouldn't waste your time. Yeah, cos some of them weren't even here. Yeah. What do you mean? In fact we'll have to . Mm. Excuse me! No hear me! Just you tell him that Joanne says flipping since when, Easter? In a way. Because I didn't see him cos . Oh no, you never know what he's doing! I said True enough! I don't like to wear . It's hard for you. Yeah, he's really a creep! And he And I said, tell me what I said to you?heard you talking to me then you know she could go mad! Must be somewhere where the both of you can meet up. So, how are you? Which one is ticking Sarah? Aha. What? Not too bad. She's gonna be there now dear. I wasn't. I used to si take the lesson this afternoon. So Takes all afternoon? Yeah. This morning was a bit quiet like. Oh dear God! That means everyone driving so Yeah. Spot the catch. Where we going? Ah! Very good! What? Forever I'll drive.. Stuart must be there. They used to ma , open on a Wednesday. They're open every night now. Are they? Late? As far as I know. Erm Oh! Around there. I hope he's in the club and everything, they all try and out do each other. Yes. You ought to see about Jackie getting there Yeah you just go. How often? They're just being finished, you know if she wanted. So you get, you bought them? Yeah. Oh why? Is it wrong number? I don't know. Trisha you ! You know more than me ! Wanted to put her just wasn't right, even now she's . Well there's my mini. There's your mini dad, do you want that? Where? We went Over there. when we, when we went to mini . There's loads of them. It's lovely! Horrible bleeding minis! What do you want, set of ? No, nothing. I've been up to church . I heard you. Are you ? No, it was just a family from work. Where are you working today? Who? You. Going up there. No, to supervise. Pardon? That's what she said. I said I'm going to supervise. Do you know people here to talk? We'll have all the day, all the morning. He's only just gone on on Thursday. You know Aha. the . Well that's all. We just got more and more depressed. It's really hard though, the labour. I jumped on it, back home. Cut round there and see how the others drived It's already . It's very nice! I'll have the then. Did you? Ah! Useless! I don't like her very, still trying to get out of it. What? You don't like as much is what you're saying. That's quite I, I quite like over here. But er Does anyone else know? What? No. If I could just move this. Okay. Ah! I took a bit. Yes. Is there any ? Where exactly is he going? No, I haven't heard.. You phoned? No. He says I'm not to.. Ah! So to indicate where you're going! It's a woman, Joanne. Well She . We've passed . Mm. Oh Jesus! There's a right one! Do you always get paid? Yes Mm. I used to work on the ne , the ne er, drill. So you never really went to any fortune teller? It's down there. In the, no, but there's a lot down the other way. Where's that? Aha. You went? I haven't. What's that called? Is that it? The theatre's just here. Ah yes! I'll I didn't realize his son was him. He must be working. Yeah. Well I'd erm Ah, hey! They're very busy Tim said, I mean to the If you wanna buy something here don't be put off by . Why? What is it? Where are we? Ooh ah! As long as we know where it is. We pass it here in a few minutes. It's anyway after that butchers. Oh!erm then signed himself. So? He hadn't changed. But he has. What? Talking a load, a load of junk! How keen are you, like? Oh not too much. You'll be drunk! I say one, I said, when I see why, why, here he'll be learning . Alright. Fine. What about you David, alright? Yeah. . Who's that in James's house? Och! And we did Tim's work here. Don't know what that is. Dad does a lot of work up here. He does plants What? and grain. Greenwood Avenue! That's where that and everybody else . That's where erm this person back there. Back together. Oh well if you go out it'll happen! I don't can't suit me that much! No. Mhm. Look at him working those two down there, er there It goes off ever they look at them now. No. I know. Thank you ! What? . Have you switched that on? Yeah. So what type of a carpet are you looking for? One that goes down on the floor! I'm putting higher up Er, er er! Indeed! You should have a solid floor, have you Don't Oh for goodness sake! Oh well you have her Hey? I'll be making a note of them down here, it was you! Yeah, that's right And then with Joanne. you see. It was Joanne said you'd go down there, so you said alright. I've measured the so that's okay. You gotta do it for something . Indeed! Yeah I know. Right here! Right now! So the one we got . Here we go. Has something happened here? Right here! Right now ! What? What's that? I have never been in there. You was. Me and, you and I was in there on don't know when, years ago. Dianne told me the score so anyway you're like a friend can go with you. You're driving. Ah? So in a way, like someone can go with you and all if you want. Can they? Well, look! I don't think so Helen. I mean, they've dropped that wee girl on her own. No, well because I've seen it before. You think I would do it. That wee girl over there, she's riding it. They must take two like, you know, that one round the bend there they have bars on. Well, well there's arm one you go for, you'll have to. I don't see how you would learn very much. No . Your first couple of lessons are half an hour take you driving anyway, and by the time you get up there you'd drive onto them. . And, if you haven't been in a car before the driver drives, so you can give me what you owe. . Which one's Paul's ? What? Ooh! Right, we're going in there. This is good! Good ! It's Sly. It is. Sly? You wanna get used to this anyway. I'll have to . Oh it's nice that ! I think it is. Is this U two? It is. I think it is.. I've never been up here before. Why, you mean ? No,Arts, and County, yes, I've been with Martin . Shaun lends them their going to the health club. She was. She might have told you. She did anyway. On there. That's the one David has. I every time. I've seen some in there your What? Urgh! Can't see it properly. Why couldn't she come? What? And that's by By by Which? Yeah! You can go in there with your dog. Er, no you can get your dog on there. Well I don't see the erm Ah? There's people everywhere just coming home. Well I don't know. He's a weirdo! And you just roll up when you're here . Eh? He didn't even check. She came along. Well ? What? You won't be allowed to . Aha. Yeah. What er, do you know? Oh my God! Ah . And I was feeling a bit, a little bit chilly. If it's , it's really nice now isn't it? It's really, like I mean you're Could be better. you'd, what? Have you been there? Not for a long time now. It's really changed. Like, you can see everything . See the . Ballinamore isn't it? I've never been at it myself, like, but I mean but I mean the and all is, well there's all the stuff on it anyway. as far as I'm concerned we can get on. Yeah. What time is it now? Quarter to three. Tim . In that there? I know. See, remember when I wa , those houses were first, first built whenever there was like heavy rain and everything they flooded. Can't remember when they were built. I remember those houses being built. We used to come down here every Friday afternoon! And mum, and Emma used to pick me up from school, primary school, and I was like, always last out. And erm and usually, aha. I remember we used to come down. But I remember those being built and a at first whenever there was like rain, or whatever there, they always used to like flood the place! That place is always packed and I don't think we'll be . Aha. Oh we can't . I like that song! I think that's quite good. It's this erm there's three fellers and two girls. Peace, love and understanding . Oh well.. . What about Tim and his ? . We he'll never do that. One so , one show . Oh! And your four children are too ! Peace, and love and understanding . You reckon? Peace What? and love What do you reckon? Yeah. Go over there. and understanding. Oh, oh oh understanding. Oh ah oh! Night. Real good! Mor or or ning . See that, did you? That's the one John and Lucy are driving around in. The pleasure sport one. That Lucy's a brilliant driver! Knocked down. Why? See your man, Brian drive . Do you remember? I'm telling you. Aha. Aha. So funny how, peace, love and understanding . No. But she's on Peace! on this. Love! Talking about love! Love! .Ba ba, ba ba ah love! So funny about, peace, love, and understanding . Carpet. Peace, love, and understanding . Where are we going ? What's so funny about peace, love and understan . It's . Oh I thought it was. I don't think it's wise to talk about the robbery. Yeah. Don't talk at all. If she really wants to let her take them in. There's the fire station. Sammy used to call those engine fires instead of fire engines! I think it's a good wee song! Martin Carpets. Mm mm. That's it. Get parked. What are we gonna do with me . Look at those cars. There it is. So rather, would you buy one like? Move! Talk over your head Joanne, you usually do! What are you doing? Still, I can't carry that . Eh? You two are chicken! Don't you think I should park there? Well either there or no not taller, I don't My dad wanna be was gonna buy one of those for Richard wa , before he got the Metro, it was between one of those and the Metro. And Richard said er, would you look sick driving one of those? He said he loo would die before he got into a car like that! A Renault, one of the Renault fours or something. A . I think he'll be okay. Joanne, what will I do? Just hook this on him? No! Take it off! What way do we go daddy? Up that way. This way? Yeah but I suppose if You alright ? da Alan she was measured as the store in Ulster and all. I really do like that hat! Nine ninety nine, that's good isn't it? you mean I'll think get it when you and me and you know, You'll have to cut up that smaller. I know, my, do yo . But you see no, when you think my room, my room's maybe, right say seven feet wi wide right? But normally should have a wee bit that goes in and hole. So like, I don't know. I think you must prefer everything in that room. I know, mum. You'll have a like and then you could That's gone down again ain't it? Hanging on her now. I think that's a lovely apartment. I'd like that higher up. Gone are the days . Do you realize that that's where . What? In that Fair. And that was the first Where are my going? Down to here, Belfast? Is that the town one? Ya. You can just go to the other one here providing they can now just go back again and go and ge and get Where else is there? that one. No, she's jus , she's just gone to er Mr ! I know, my teacher at school owns Lord and Cragson Floors, he was gonna get me the lino quickly. Mm. Down Avenue, just there. Don't hurry like you did that's the . No we're not. What do you call a car ? Ring up is what you've gotta do. Well now, we'll now going over to Ian's anyway. You can . You can. Mm. I'll just go and pay, okay? Yeah. No need to have a look. Oh no! Mm. You never did Martin . I have never been there before. Yeah. No. Must be a year now. I know. Like I'm only . No. When? Well what time is it? Five past eight. Oh! Well let's go ask and roundabout and go and see if there's ah any cheap things cos we've been to see her again and Why? We can order it when he comes. Well it wouldn't have to be sort of Well dad may not want to walk about with ! Sure, dad doesn't mind. I bet he does! And Val knows it. Val does not knows it. Not a Oh! ! Anyway, what's my chance I'm gonna get it? You know . Fly on the wheel, the wheel I shall have to get it off. What? Got a fly up the wheels. I'm not talking about the ring! I'll only choose peach, burgundy with a pattern in, okay? I've had other guys. But not pink. I No not pink. look Look out! instead of pink. in your eyes . Aren't you afraid you're gonna have . If you did have a car you could go to Maces and stuff like that. You wouldn't know anything. No, I'd get another car. Well I said I i if she didn't have a car you could go into Maces . I did it for years. I had a thousands ships, but no matter where, you're the one for me baby this I know cos it's true love, you're the one I'm dreaming of true blue baby I love you. I heard all the lies, I've tried oh so many times, but without they fall again so excited cos you're my best friend! So if you should ever doubt wonder what love is all about This is a nice one then. Yeah, that's right. Gosh! My other sister's friends. Pardon? True love you're the one I'm, dreaming of you're heart fits me, like a glove, and I'm gonna be true blue, baby I love you! You're the one I songs are really, really strong. Your heart fits me, like a glove so we're gonna true blue baby I love you! No oh more sadness there's one thing that I don't I searched the whole world for someone like you. Don't you know, don't you know, that it's true love, oh baby! True love, oh baby! True love, oh baby! True love! It's, true love, oh baby! True love, oh baby! True love! Baby! So if you should ever doubt . Yeah, I quite like this song. What? What? What did you say? Will you able to watch then? Like I say Yeah, throw it in. Ah! No! No, I like it now, even nicer now. It's nicer I mean So you think it's better? Think it's better? Yeah. Right. Don't you know, don't you know that it's true love you're the one I'm dreaming of. Your heart fits me like a glove . Hair. What have you done? Could you not sit in that chair? Yeah, and we use plastic bags . It will sure be him. He's putting the car seat in. La la la, la la la la Tim just said so he isn't having la la la I'm gonna be true blue baby, I love you. We've lost the carpet place. true love, oh baby! True love, oh baby! True love! Oh baby! True love! True love, oh baby! True love, oh baby! True love, oh baby! True love . Oh dear . Ah ah ah ah . What? It's the radio station. Christian's away to the caravan this week. And he's so excited he's going spare. Jackie said he's been up for seven o'clock. He came in to get his bag. Oh! Oh yeah, everything, he was ready for about si I don't know what she said. And he goes pacing up and down! Yeah. Pacing waiting. He was really, really excited! It's just that I have never seen him Who's took all that down there that morning,morning? Cos it's a new caravan, he went to pick it with them when he was staying over. . Ah well. See what I mean. Keeping these somewhere else. Why? What do you say, you'll go away in Terrible! one on holidays? I didn't say a In the power of love I didn't say where I was going Joanne. mm mm, mm mm . The banks are closed till Tuesdays and you can't mail them. You don't know where they are. Well I dunno. Daddy she's not buying the carpet tomorrow is she? Yeah, but mu mum I was ready to wait for it. Sure, they're closed on Friday won't they? So when are you gonna So that's it! go out? So when are you gonna get the carpet? In the power of love In the pow Ah ah, ah Ah ah, ah ha ha . Ha ha ha! Ha ha ha! Take me it's nearly lunchtime now. How many of the men there, are there at work? Hey? They won't even let you anyway. In the power of love About, how many? in the power of love . I said to Jackie , did you have a good weekend? Said it was Who is she? pretty good. It wa , she said, I said did you go home? And she said yeah, I had a, actually a very good weekend. What a ? I know. He seems alright. I keep getting him on the phone , I already know. Look? What? There's wee there, did you see him? Where is that carpet place ? Oh Craigar Carpets? Yeah. I think that's opened about eight or nine. Pat got two new carpets there the other day. What? What did it cost her? See er, Home and Away? A , no? Oh I did. Well I thought it was really nice the way Megan er, was asleep. Yeah, I suppose . You what? I think I was still . At five o'clock? Where were you at then? No, I haven't really been anywhere.. Ha? Interested in my, my apartment.. This is the nearly got me and I've only seen oh have we actually seen these? The only Och! I must have been desperate! Aye. We could do nearly a quarter on a night. It's just up the top of my street. Where is the turning here? It's just there... He having their rows with . He's in and Cyprus that was. Yeah. That used to be here, you know, when that was on . Well I like . My house is down there.. What? No. Five o'clock tonight. What park is that? It's not Vicky Park, sure it's not. No. I have never ever been to Victoria Park. Kerry and Anne would always take me,when I used to stay with them when we were ten. Used to go into Vicky park and all this. No you're not. Oh! Er, what No. you talking about? Aha. Yeah. I know, Anne would never let me go. Yes, we can go in. Watch your back. Mhm. I think I'll try it. Have you got a hanky? Aye. Know where the shops are? In there. The Boston Chinese Takeaway. Look at that! Isn't that so funny! Look! Look! Look! Look! Very ! Yeah I know we're not Alright in here. I I love them! But I mean, not like that! That's rare! Now, I'll show you, I'll point my mini out right. I love the wee midget. Right. Well anyway you don't like the midgets. Why? Oh deary me ! Look! There's the Porsche that she was looking at. The red one there. Mhm. V I X. And my mini's up on top round the corner there. Oh yes! Said , isn't it beautiful! You could even swap it! It's lovely! I'd really like a mini. It rolls back down. I could do with that one. What about a black one? Couldn't do it with a black one. See those, the Honda Civic, that wee white one. I think some of those are brilliant! I love Cos there is an older one of those in the garage . Oh yeah And er, oh it erm So ? I'm sorry ! And I'll have to get that cheap razor and all . You'll have to get a car for a . You'll have to give me those batteries back. What? You must bring those batteries back. What batteries? No way! You use batteries and I use batteries. That's a Dad! I'll be every morning I get shaved going to work in the morning. Then I might take the two out of the doll. What? I might take the other two out of the doll, won't be a problem. Well the I have the about eleven and with the I wouldn't go out of my way them. No. Cos you're Cos yo you're being a pain! you just shut it or I'll so I will Oh dear! So, can I just jump in there. Cut the grass. Course she does. You're only talking off it you know shave. Richard's turn now. You can have it. Here! Exactly! You've gotta pay me now. . Give you a course again Richard. Aha. Is it? Kelly and Anne went out today. What, what colour is it? Still green? I'm not telling you. Can't really transfer her back here. Did you go in ? Well it's dreadful! Relaxing. . Mum and dad are staying here. Well . Why, why do you wanna local? I just do. Oh! You'll need a big tea for that one. What else? Good Friday is the thirteenth of May so it's not too bad. Is tomorrow You'll be Friday? Yes. Friday, Saturday, Sunday, and then Mon Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday then I'm back in Thursday, Friday and then off Saturday, Sunday, Monday. I'm taking Friday week off. What, are yous open Easter Monday and Tuesday down there? Yeah? So in a way yo you're doing different hours and all so your pay, was that based on forty hour week? Or was that just based on you being there whenever you had to be there. Don't forget he's only started th , the job's only started a week! I'm just asking dear! I'm paying for supper. Yeah. They're paying me for forty hours. And anything you do above forty hours you can extra for? Yeah. But, saying that means you got a lot You don't have forty hours only to do. I have. Because the hour, the hours forty but there's loads to be done . Yeah. I'm getting them sorted out with Roy Well erm have you had your pay yet from them, no? Tomorrow? Yeah. So you, well then you'll still not know what you're going out with because you still have a few days from last week to get . So you don't know what you'll start with, you'll actually bring in. I will do. Do you? On my pay slip. It doesn't make any difference . Do you remember the form David got with the tax form and all? He's gonna give it into Mericlean and Mericlean , just said we'll have to send it off to the tax office to get your tax code changed. It's er, the tax code on his P forty five is . Well His it's like I'll get twenty five. P forty five is three two nine L. Three two nine? And the , the number that was on is five er O one. the form, er it's a, it's a fo , official form from the tax office. He had five O one. Said, five O one from the year began the first of April nineteen ninety two Ninety two. until such and such, ninety three A. So Mericlean sent it away with his P forty five to have it changed and they said they couldn't accept it that they'd have to re-apply or something. And I mean it was an official thing from the tax Yeah. office themself. They wrote , they wrote back and Carole showed me the letter and said that this isn't this is Not sufficient evidence or something. Not sufficient evidence of the correct code. I mean how what other evidence Yeah. could you show me? It came Well directly from them and was posted to you. It's like Well Pat a wee tax form. yes, that's what I says, what the frig do you have to do to get through to these stupid people! You know, see tax people, people like government! Well that T V's working. Aye. See the T V is. I don't understand keep on paying a T V licence erm How much is it now? It's, a hundred and ninety I think. Is it so? No. I think eighty five for a colour T V licence erm i is nothing but the greatest load of bull or bullshit! No,i it's flipping rubbish! People are getting ripped off! Even black and white T V's, how much is that? Half a . And all you get is bloody It's only about twenty five pound, is it something like bloody nonsense! that? Wildlife and all, three times a week! Who wants to watch what a frigging ca coot lives on or whatever! You have bloody football! See football I'm sick of people having to get the football ! Shit football! And that's all you get! Last night I sat up last night to watch that George Foreman fight and they had to put football on before it and I fell asleep and I missed the bloody fight! Because of that stupid fi er football! Football couldn't wait till the end! A bloody waste! What's on tonight? No. More frigging football! Eleven thirty five tonight, football again! Christ! . Bunch of tarts going round a field chasing a ball! Anyhow where's the oh Christ! You're gonna rip it! Aye, see the ?she's got them offices and half, there's no telling . What do you think of it? I've got official forms here from the tax office, I mean, they say they can't accept it! If they can't accept it, dunno, who ca who can what would John Major have said? Who's John Major? The Prime Minister, you dope! Typical woman!! I feel as though I'm going deaf. She's starting to call the wedding off. That's where you can see all the at work and I I, I haven't even got a stamp so it's . That's terrible! What? What time is it? Twenty to eleven. What are they calling ? She's terrible! But once you got there and got stuck into the work and Well,whenever I leave the work. What? Still whenever I leave . What time do you start in the morning? Nine. Nine? He's gets a well that's all going into the the prisons. Show us. No. I'm always and up the night before The T V's going. I hate having ! Well it's not a race. I'll stay until lunchtime. Maybe give you a wee lesson so it'll save me going on a course so you could bring in all couldn't you? Be a good idea? Well vegetables and potatoes and not a whole lot like, but I mean What potatoes would you want? Pink. Pink. Yeah alright. Do it yourself. Yeah, I know. What's all . They're lovely! Them pink potatoes are lovely! They're not that good. Well have . They're no good. I like the We'll have Egyptian floury potatoes. Egyptian are they're good you know. But they're dear! Te twenty twenty pence. Twenty what? They're twenty pence and that's because they're high. High. That's dear. But, there are a couple of them we're cutting them down. Why are you cutting them down? We don't lose except worse potato and they're all standard size How much? Richard? For a five pound bag, how much are they? Seventy five. That's not bad. Depends, most of the time there is a . Sixty nine for a five bag. Oh no, we're sixty nine for . I turned off the plug bit. You know where our Sammy was at school like, it did fruit as well and they don't really eat fruit, but I mean Samuel eats fruit . Aye, well it's it's, I suppose it's all money for him as well. Well he only got four or five pounds worth didn't he? Well I feel sorry for . Yeah.. Yeah. Do you have Granny Smiths down there? Yeah. Should be, hardly ever . I'm Mm. sure we went to Well, I thought it was mostly for people there. It's very well I think it's just back there. Yeah. But if you're just a . Not very men have their Sunday dinner on Sunday. Yes. Mm? I'll be there to work. We'll probably have something on for Mother's day. You've had something special today you can have beans. It is this Sunday , yeah. Our bean . Something really fancy! Something super. Whoever took this? Move that M sixty keyboard will you? Oh! Jesus it's Are you sure you've got a driving ? No. Erm I, you know that way as you went to ge , you always turn your head to check your blind spot? I didn't turn my I just went fucking blind spot! I did it anyway. I'll try five pound of erm that . They need washing do they? I said, what's the point of having a judge and the jury that says ah? What do you mean? You know if someone goes it's, gets taken to court for say, a murder Aha. what's the point of having the judge sitting up there when it's jury that's saying whether it's Well he has to and the judge has Oh I see. But that's all? So he could, so much Well to say I'm committing he you to jail. Well I mean Oh, well, well, well, Richard. Do you have dirty cards, yeah? Aha. Oh well she'll be getting off in . Will you pay for them then I'll pay you Richard? Yeah. Well that's what it will be, more or less,anyho , anyway get the cabbage from the change from the vegetables. Cabbage make a change to the turnip or cauliflower or something. So just keep that wee bit wait till get them. The cabbage is erm White. Hard cabbage? Yeah. I like hard cabbage. Well not if it's done in the pressure cooker cos it'll come out all soft. Ha! I love ! cauliflower. Add that up. And the wee mushrooms and things. Eh? What, the wee button ones? Oh they're I usually get tomatoes and all, as well but if three tomatoes still in there. So we won't need tomatoes. Sometimes I get a lettuce but lettuce don't eat it all. As I've said it's usually sometimes I go out and you need a bag. The dole queue woman stop. Gosh! Look at that! I dunno whether Mm. But not the news they're talking about this. What for? It is! Who says! I'm very happy for you! They won't know where they're going. I'm . There's a couple of choices. Do not dare! Get your Okay. for your ? I dunno . so you are. Get out that thing. I didn't know mum was shaving her hair. What? I just know mum was . It's only Kept on the walls. No. Right. Are we going? Yes. She . No. Oh ! I'll . What? I'll see . I'll see her in the morning and . Where were you going? Yeah. The job as bad as that? No. It's okay. once you get there it won't be okay. Just getting through it. I reckon I'll get an offer, that'll be I've . Yeah, so contact me first. Are you going out somewhere tonight? Well I'm not gonna go . and I mean I'll tell you what's been on the, the, the and I say that . So he'll let us know when . Gary went in the church tonight? Yeah. Yeah, well he's living . as if he's playing cards tonight. I don't know about it but he was there in church on Thursday Well that would be yesterday. No, this Thursday. Oh aye. I know. I'm going to bed then. Right. Night! Alright. Gonna sit and stuff myself first. Are you sitting? Quite nice? Yes? Off, I'll switch it off for you. What? I have a proper wee bit. Well we'll go to bed and watch this. He's terrible looking there! Isn't he? Don't know. Who is he? Ooh!. Somebody . I would. Is that on? What's this? Shouldn't eat that. There's no T V . Well St Aldate's in the Civil War is quite a problem to talk about really, erm in half an hour, because it's so enmeshed in the story of Oxford in the Civil War which is a long, very interesting one, so what I'm going to try and do is erm to pick out some of the local landmarks that did survive in the 17th century and relate them to what we know about some of the people and in this short half an hour, just try and picture what it was like to live in St Aldate's during the civil war. Obviously a whole lot else is . I think it's quite important to orientate ourselves first, and you're looking at a map of Oxford in 1643, erm and 17th century maps for the most part are what we should call upside down. The north is at the bottom, and I think it helps if you stop thinking about it as a map and you think about it as a birds-eye view, a helicopter view, erm and then the whole thing begins to make sense. erm Now, what you've got there is a slightly later map of 1675, which is exactly the same, the north is at the bottom, I'm afraid the top is not very obvious, if I could just hold it up, you've got the castle there, and you've got it the right way up, and actually there's some writing as well. erm And the reason I've given you that one is that that was drawn in 1675 by David Loggen, and it's a very, very accurate one, and it's rather easier to see some of the places I shall be talking about, so I think it's a nice one for you to have close up. erm There are some little differences which are quite interesting too. Now, if we find Carfax first in the middle, Oxford's on the crossroads principle, like so many cities, we've got St Giles down here, erm and Oxford of course a small city, or we should regard it as a very small city. It was still a walled city, the walls were all virtually intact, the castle was a bit ruinous, but it was there, and it had its four main gates, erm East Gate on the important London Road going out past Magdalen and over Magdalen Bridge, erm the North Gate here, the Westgate by the Castle, and then still existing then but not in your map if you can find it, the South Gate across the road, just at the bottom of Christchurch, can you find Christchurch on your map? erm Now, perhaps you can that there's a difference in Christchurch on your map with this one. When Cardinal Wolsey fell, he hadn't finished the building of Tom Quad, the whole of this side was left open because he'd planned a very grand perpendicular chapel like King's College Chapel, and erm the ruins, well no, not the ruins, the foundations were still to be seen apparently in the 17th Century John Gomley tells us. But it was open, I mean it must have been fenced in some way later on. erm But there was this great gap and I think had the civil war not come, the dean of Christchurch who was the first of the two Fells, would have probably finished that building then. As it was it was finished, as you can see on your map, after the war, erm but perhaps you can also see that Tom Tower is not yet built on yours. That wouldn't come till the 1680s. Now St Aldate's was a long narrow parish. It didn't quite reach up to Carfax, and it had another great landmark, as well as the big, rich college of Christchurch, and that was the Guildhall, built at the centre of the civic power, which was more or less, well, just where the Town Hall is now. It had 2 big inns, and we're more or less, well, we are on the site of the first one, Blue Boar Inn, and on your map, rather strangely, it seems to be built across the opening of Blue Boar Lane, I don't know if you can see. erm Anyway, it's just about there, and then, almost next door, presumably in competition with each other is the other inn, the Unicorn Inn, erm so that was it just on the South Side of Blue Boar Lane. erm One very important house is erm what is now the Newman Mobray Bookshop, and that of course is still very much as it was in the 17th Century. It belonged to an extremely important erm civic family, Thomas and John Smith, who are the two important ones during the civil war, Thomas was mayor just before the War, John Smith was a member of parliament in the Long Parliament, and erm there's a slightly complicated story to the house, Thomas moved out of it just before the war and built another one way up the street, but John stayed there, and another important landowner in Marston, Umpton Croak, owned the other half of it. If you go down to Newman Mobray, and walk down that little alleyway, Rose Place, you see what is the frontage of that house, and it's very fine, and you can tell these are important people building themselves a fine house. erm And I've got a picture in here somewhere , which I'll pass round. erm And also, the Alice Shop? Do you know where I mean? erm Well, that too, is a 17th century building, I've got a an early 19th century Butler engraving of it here, and some pictures from the Alice shop itself, Now that was owned by a Walter Paine, both these citizens were well off brewers, erm those are just pictures of the same one, it's a little bit of a problem because this is called the house belonging to the manciple of Christchurch. I think in fact that's a mistake from,a mistaken caption. Manciples were like college bursars, and they were very important. I'm rather advertising this because I think it's important to understand that although, and I'm sure you know, that there's this constant war really between, it wasn't of course a physical war, but certainly tension, and difficulty between the university and the city. erm I think it's important not to see the city as a sort of down-trodden, poor,hard-working, well, I'm sure they were hard-working, but very poor people. We're talking about two powerful organisations, both trying to keep their privileges intact. erm Undoubtedly the university often won, but that didn't stop the city keeping on trying. erm And I think one other citizen should be mentioned, erm which is one John Nixon. He didn't actually live in St Aldate's, but he must have been here a lot, because he was mayor in 1636, he was an alderman erm he was very much a leading in the city, and I think the leader of the opposition to Royal Policies. erm And erm when he came back after the war, he actually was so much involved on the parliamentarian side he had to leave Oxford during the war, but when he came back he built a school in the city which was actually in the Guildhall courtyard, it was built round the courtyard, and that remained a free school, for the city's boys right up to the end of the 19th century. Right, now, we've talked about very briefly, touched on the division between university and the city, and obviously the erm differences between the King and Parliament exacerbated what happened in the city. That's a complicated story I can't really go into at the moment, but was very much to do with the Royal Policies of the 1630s. Am I blocking your view? No. erm This is quite an interesting cartoon, and really has no connection with either St Aldate's or Oxford, erm but it was actually published in 1642, and it shows the two sides, the Roundheads and the Cavaliers, and what I think is interesting about it is that it does seem to be quite objective, it doesn't seem to be particularly getting at one side or the other, which is very rare for the kind of erm cartoons that were later issued during the war. And I've really just put it up erm because erm this is a complicated story but, one does want to be careful I think about seeing the sides as too neat. erm Undoubtedly the university erm with it's connections with the aristocracy and the landed gentry and the church was mainly royalist, but that is not to say that it all was. One college, New Inn Hall, completely emptied during the war, because erm they were on parliament's side. erm The warden of Merton had to get out of Oxford quick when the king arrived, because, and spent the erm war in London, name was Nathaniel Brent, and he was quite an important man in the organisation of the Parliamentary war effort, and Lincoln had rather mixed loyalties, too. So even University wasn't completely on one side, and again the City was erm there was this sort of Puritan element that didn't like the King's religious policies, erm there was this general feeling against the University which tended to put them off to the other side, but there are undoubtedly loyal citizens erm citizens loyal to the King. And Thomas and John Smith, who I've just mentioned were actually a split family, Thomas Smith was erm so loyal that when the first round of parliament, sorry, when the first Royalist troops came into Oxford, he, as a J P prosecuted some of the citizens who tried to stop them blocking down Botley Bridge as a defence measure. Whereas John Smith, a member of the Long Parliament actually was beaten up by those same Royalists troops, so erm because of his parliamentary sympathies. erm But he seems to have played things rather cool later on, he disappears at the beginning of the war but comes back into Oxford, and then later, actually sits in the Royalist Parliament,1644, which he certainly wouldn't have done if he was still on parliament's side. erm And I think really most citizens, and I daresay, a number of the scholars in the university too, were rather more interested in keeping their heads down, and erm just trying to keep out of it, and where the citizens were concerned, keeping on earning a living. erm And I think that's an important thing to remember while we're thinking about what happened in St Aldate's. Well undoubtedly the first thing that happened in St Aldate's, the most important thing, was after the battle of Edgefield, when the King rode in in state erm in victory he said, though the fact that the battle was indecisive,and it was described by a very royalist writer Anthony Wood, you may have heard of, is a university antiquarian erm very much on the university and royalist side. ‘They came in their full march into the town with about 60 or 70 coloureds borne before them which they'd taken at the Battle of Edgehill from the Parliament's forces. At Christchurch the university stood to welcome His Majesty.’ Well he doesn't bother to mention that the king also had an official welcome at Carfax, which was the normal place, what was known as the Penniless Bench, which was at the end of St Martin's Church, only the of that remains at the moment, now, erm and then was presented with the traditional gift of gloves by the mayor, and the not very generous sum of £520, and just about the same time, Alderman Nixon and 12 others who agreed with him disappeared smartly from Oxford, and weren't to be seen for the rest of the war. Now the King chose Oxford for pretty obvious reasons as his headquarters, he'd lost London, he needed a capital and a headquarters, erm and erm Oxford had a delightfully convenient central position, its transport is very easy with the river erm navigable, erm on both sides of it. Easy to defend, with its walls still existing, and the two rivers, and of course, with resources, with fuel and war effort, and the kind of buildings where the king could form a court. And the best building, though it's not technically part of St Aldate's, was the one he obviously chose as his fort, which was Christchurch. So court dominates St Aldate's throughout the war, and I think therefore we should spend just a little time looking at the people involved, erm but not too much. This of course is erm one of the famous Van Dyck portraits of Charles before the war, painted in 1636. Painted for a bust to be made, so that's why we have the three views, but I think it's very lucky, it means we can sort of walk round Charles, and get our own view of him. And perhaps Van Dyck doesn't flatter him in quite the way, flatter's the wrong word, sort of transmutes him in the way that he often does in his very elegant and sophisticated portraits. Well, Charles immediately set up the kind of court that he'd had in London as far as he could, with a very set routine. He had his two elder sons with him, he had quite a lot of time for enjoyment, certainly to start with, he went hunting round Woodstock quite often, and they played tennis, The erm Racquet Sport, and I think they played tennis in The Racquet Sport, I'm not absolutely certain, was actually just erm facing onto Blue Boar Street, erm behind the Unicorn Inn. erm They had great services were held in Christchurch Cathedral, and the King would have looked out from the Deans House, and this is the view of Tom Quad, a modern view, of course, of how you can look out onto the Great Quad of Christchurch, but of course it wasn't like that. erm Tom Tower wasn't there, the elegant pool in the middle wasn't and in fact the whole thing was probably rather chaotic. We know for instance that quite often erm pillaged flocks of cows and sheep were driven into the quad as one of the few open spaces within the city walls. Anthony Wood gleefully recalls this. erm So I think you want to regard it not as a sort of glamorous place where the troops were drilling and the drums were beating, but a slightly chaotic and rather dirty place, despite the kings existence. Another person the people in St Aldate's would have seen was the kings nephew, Prince Rupert, erm only 23 but one of the King's major assets, a brilliant cavalry commander. This is painted just before the war, and it's interesting to compare it with a painting by the court painter, William Dobson who worked in Oxford during the war, his studio was just around the corner in the High Street, because that's Rupert very much at the end when things were going badly wrong for him, erm and it's unfinished, perhaps because Dobson was beginning to run out of paint, and the experts at allow, and I think just that face tells the whole story about tension and unhappiness, Dobson's an interesting painter, one of the first English painters who sort of get to the top in this way, and he painted a lot of the cavaliers at Charles' court, erm this is Sir John Byron who clattered down the main street at St Aldate's, before the king even arrived before the Battle of Edgehill, the one that caused trouble for John Smith, erm and he was very much a swash-buckling character, but he didn't spend a lot of time in Oxford later, but he was there enough to have his portrait painted. That black mark is erm a scar patch, if you got a scar during the war you got a wound in a scuffle erm you won in the war, you did sort of emphasise this in that way. And so Charles Cockshall, who is the owner of court out to the north of Oxford, who is the King's master of ceremonies, and I think that's an interesting contrast, because here again you get this feeling of tension, and sadness. erm There was a great deal of difficulty I think at the court, as well as the rather glamorous exterior. erm The Queen didn't arrive till 1643, she'd been in the Netherlands raising money for the war effort, very successfully, because she finally came to Oxford with 2,000 foot and 1,000 horsemen, and erm a hundred wagons full of equipment as well as cannons and so on. I don't know if it all came to Oxford, but certainly most of it did, and erm the city council actually spent six shillings and sixpence strewing the streets with flowers to welcome her, which erm when we have a look at the amount of money that was being, having to be raised elsewhere it was quite generous really. And she got the pair of gloves as usual at the Penniless Bench. erm Then she came down to Christchurch and was welcomed by the heads of the university, her husband had already greeted her outside Oxford, on the site of , actually, and then Charles escorted her to her own household in Merton College. I think she undoubtedly added to the intrigue erm and difficulties of her court, erm one example, she was always getting people that she approved of, getting them plum jobs, and one example was one of the governors of Oxford, the most unpopular, one Sir Arthur Aston, who was so unpopular that he got attacked on the street, and then had to have a body guard paid for the city council, and then was curvetting on his horse in front of some ladies, and fell off and broke his leg so badly that he had to have it amputated, so from then on he had a wooden leg, erm that meant he had to stop being governor, and later on in the war, a countryman was coming into Oxford, and asked the sentinel ‘who was governor still’, and by that time a friend of prince Rupert's Sir William Leg was governor, and the answer was ‘one Leg’, and the countryman's reply was ‘pox on him, is he governor still?’. (Aston). erm I think two people have had tremendous problems and again must have been going up and down St Aldate's, because they were very busy officials, was Edward Hyde, who later became Earl of Clarendon and wrote his story of the war, again of course from the Royalist point of view, and his great friend, Lord Falkland, who was Secretary of State for the King, and became so upset and worried by the rash policies of the Queen's party and the general atmosphere of intrigue, and by the war itself, that he does seem to have more or less committed suicide at the battle of Newbury, by riding ahead of his troops into the enemy. And erm Edward Hyde wrote an elegiac mourning comment on this, which we really haven't got time for unfortunately. erm Sorry, I think we'll just stick with Faulkner for a moment, because I think that leads us on to the constant tragedies of battle casualties, which were obviously very much brought in into Oxford whenever people were wounded outside they were often brought in to Oxford to be cared for, there was a hospital out of Yarnton too, but a great many were cared for all over Oxford, and the greatest of course were buried at Christchurch. erm The tombs bear witness to this, there's two governors actually, Sir William Pendon who died of one of the epidemics in Oxford and Sir Henry Gage who was another governor, who was only governor for a month because he was killed in a scuffle near Abingdon. erm But the grandest funeral of the lot was the King's cousin, erm which was, erm and the funeral procession came from Magdalen down to Christchurch, the footman soldiers came, he was, sorry, killed at the battle of Edgehill, and the funeral took place on January 13th 1643. ‘The footman soldiers came first with their muskets under their arms, the noses of the muskets being behind them. The pikemen trailed their pikes on the ground, the horsemen followed with their pistols in their hands, the handles being upwards. The tops of the colours also were borne behind, a chariot, covered in black velvet where the body was, drawn by six horses, and the man that drove the chariot strewed money about the streets as he passed. Three great volleys of shot at the interring of the body, and lastly an herald of arms proclaimed his titles.’ Well, if death can ever be glamorous, that, I suppose, is the glamorous side of war casualties, but I think we need to spend the rest of our time very much looking at what it was like for the ordinary people of St Aldate's. erm And here, I apologise for producing a modern slide of Carfax, but I think just to remind you that we are talking about a very busy crowded city area, and erm about a city whose whole aspect was changing during the war. The university buildings, all around St Aldate's, the Bodleian had become a warehouse, full of corn, coal, cheese and the uniforms for the King's lifeguards were made there. New College was an arsenal, Magdalen College had the heavy ordnance, which was clattering through the streets drawn by horses, whenever it was brought in. There were mills all round the city that were grinding gunpowder or sword blades. erm I think the city must have become a real mess, there were stores piled up everywhere, wood, coal, corn, often I think they had to build sort of, something to hold the corn, there's a lot of the evidence for that in the college accounts certainly. Military stores, every musketeer had to have at least two metres of match which was a fairly thick cord, which was used to ignite his musket, and if you start thinking about how many musketeers there were around in Oxford, a whole lot of match had to be stored. That's quite combustible, sort of oiled cord. erm And there was, of course, powder had to be stored as well . And as well as that, beyond the city walls, fortifications were being erected all the way round the north of Oxford, the bits that weren't covered by the river. That's another story, where they were, and if you're interested, downstairs there's a very good map that shows you superimposed on a modern map of Oxford where they were, but they very much affected citizens in the St Aldate's, because every citizen, and every scholar who was still in the university, between the ages of 16 and 60 had to work on the fortifications at least one day a week, or pay a shilling fine. And getting them to work was a constant problem and collecting the fines, and we do actually know about this. If you would like to look at the second sheet on your erm of the two that you've got, erm this really brings to mind , one day in St Aldate's, in the summer of 1643, when a very hard working, methodical loyal official, Edward Heath, was ordered by the King and his Council to walk around St Aldate's, and make a list of all the defaulters, all those who had failed to work on the fortifications. erm And there are erm it's quite difficult to read until you get used to it, but erm the title is nice and easy, could I just have a copy, erm down there? I don't want to deprive you. erm Now, if you look at the top, you see the widow Smith's house, and then it says ‘the officers would not speak with him’. Next to that would be a sort of double stroke in the margin, erm can you see the name Holloway erm Well, on the line below that, erm it's talking about the Earl of Newark and his servants, and then on the following line it says, ‘removed to Trinity College and son gone out of town’. erm Now, there's a very nice one, if you move down to the single stroke, you see there are two 2s written, and below that there's a single stroke. erm And if you look at the second line, and begin three words in, it says ‘the mistress,’ the mistress is abbreviated, ‘answers her man cannot work, nor can she spare him till she be paid for what her husband did for the King's soldiers’. You can just imagine her standing arms, you know, just telling the man where he . erm Perhaps you can begin to pick out where it keeps saying no Answer. The next two in the margin, if you go further in you'll see a ‘noe answere’. (It's always spelt N O E, and answer has an E.) One does have this feeling that people were getting wind of Mr Edward Heath walking down the street, and were going out the back doors of the house. erm Yes, now if we get to about half way down there's a plus in the margin, and the third line in the bracket below that plus, more or less on a level with a three dot, and a little bit below, it says, William, I think it's Wilkinson, a minister, curate of St Ebbe's Parish, ‘his answer that he must attend the burials and christenings’, so obviously he couldn't work on the fortifications. And then, if we go right down to the bottom, there's a whole lot bracketed together against the . ‘No answer, but that they would not pay’, they ought not to pay. erm And one can go on picking out a great many of these people once you get used to the writing. It is fairly easy to read, once you begin to get . Now, as well as the fortifications, I think one wants to erm very much keep in mind that the citizens of St Aldate's were constantly being asked for money. There were these big loans for instance, £2,500 once the city had to make to the king. And this was collected by the parishes, and we know that St Aldate's had to pay £280, which along with All Saints, the city church, was the highest amount from all the various parishes. And then there was money for maimed soldiers, for what they called visited persons, which was the plague, fire and candles for the courts of guards, that was paying for fire and candles for all the little sentinel posts round Oxford. If they were freemen, they had to give up their right to graze in Port Meadow, because erm the hay was to be grown there, to be promised to His Majesty. They had to perhaps give up their pots and pans, or they were supposed to. Actually, a remarkably few were collected, to provide brass for armaments. And there were actually arms collections too. They were supposed to raiding the city regiments and paying for it, there was constant trouble for this, and the man who was appointed colonel by the king, Nicholas Selby, was very unpopular. But I think the main thing that they all had to bear to survive, was a tremendous amount of overcrowding. erm Now, we're fast running out of time, aren't we. What I am going to talk about next is erm I'll just mention that, about another 5 minutes, I think, will get us to the other great bit of work that poor old Edward Heath had to do in St Aldate's, which again, that gives us a great deal about the insight as to what it was like there. erm I just put that up, which should have been up while we were talking about money, which is erm the beautiful Oxford crown, which you can see downstairs, which was minted at New Inn Hall, the college that emptied, and was turned into the mint, mostly from college plate. erm And, of course, that was a symbol of all the problems of money that the king had, and the ordinary citizens of Oxford had in trying to provide him with it, mostly very reluctantly and unwillingly. With everything going on about the Poll tax, it's extremely easy for us to understand how they felt. Now, this is not an Oxford cartoon either, but it's a looting soldier, and very much, I think, underlines what people felt about soldiers around the place, and to go back to the overcrowding, erm the great problem was that constantly not only soldiers, but a great many other people, court officials, court servants, barbers, whoever, erm all had to found accommodation, and because St Aldate's was so near the court, a great many of them were of course connected with the court, they had some high ranking ones. Now once again we know about this because Edward Heath was given another job, just about nine months later, the king had decided he would summon a parliament in Oxford erm and in January '44 it was due to meet, but where were the members who were going to come into Oxford to stay. And so Edward Heath was sent round in January 1644, all the houses in St Aldate's to find out how many people were in them to see if there was any more room. And once again of course, meticulously, he kept his records. erm You can see, probably recognise the writing erm we've just been looking at. This is his final total after he'd been all the way round St Aldate's, he went round 73 houses, and he says here, I think this is a sort of hieroglyphic that would probably mean something like 'item'. Gentlemen and their men servants — 267, these are the extra people staying in the houses, not the people who lived in St Aldate's normally, women — 66, children under 16 years of age — 13, soldiers of the life-guards — 62, total in this parish — 408. So that's 408 extra people living in St Aldate's houses. Now, I think there's probably a very nice parallel here, I can't help thinking it was probably a bit better, must have been better organised in the Second World War, but there's going to be a erm special exhibition here isn't there, on memories of change on Oxford in the Second World War, and of course there were a great many extra people there too. And, because Edward Heath is so meticulous, we do know who were in all these different houses. erm I won't go through too many of them, erm but Blue Boar Inn, for instance, had 21 extra people, had some of the King's servants, some of the prince's servants, they had two Scottish peers, and their servants, £ 21 extra people, in a big inn, there were 14 rooms, I think, that were, could be called living rooms, but never-the-less, I think it must have been pretty crowded. £ But I think to give us perhaps a more vivid idea of what it must have been like for ordinary people, these are 3 houses in St Aldate's that don't exist any more, they're down more-or-less where the police station is, erm and we do know exactly who lived there, and who was actually there during the war. Sorry, I'm trying to find the right bit of paper. There we are. Right, now £ This is, yes, this is a fairly big house that was put together 31 and 32. Then there was a erm largish house, this one, and then a very small one on the end. And erm there has been some research done, they produced a plan of what they actually consisted of in the 17th century. The top layer was built, that you saw in the photograph, was built later, so 31 and 32 had two rooms, erm on the ground floor, and 2 on the first floor, 33, which was smaller, but it does have a fair sized room, and another upstairs, and then the very small one is 34. Now, in 31 and 32, lived a prosperous widow, the widow of a butcher, a mistress Jane Hawks, who was carrying on her husbands business, and doing quite well at it. She had a step-son and a wife, but we don't quite know whether they were there or not. But she also had living there a Colonel Stringer who was quite an important Scots Officer, three of his servants and a sergeant and one other soldier, so she had 6 extra people. Next door was a parchment maker, who had one corporal billeted on him, but we also know that 2 soldiers died in his house, and so it's possible that he actually looked after wounded soldiers, which was, of course happening all over Oxford. £ And then in the tiny house lived a widow, Elizabeth Treadwell, with one sergeant and two other lifeguards, so she had 3 soldiers in that tiny house. What we don't know, of course, is how they organized their living accommodation, whether they ever got paid, they were given these sort of , £ tickets that were supposed to be honoured later on, but as far as we can make out, they hardly ever were, erm and how the people got on, we just have to use our imagination, but it is interesting that here for instance in these three, we actually apart from anything else have two women house-holders, who are obviously erm women who are carrying on business of some independence. £ Well, I think I really had better stop there, and then if you want to ask any questions erm we can go into them, but perhaps I could just mention two things that I would like to have said more about, one was, that you probably know, there were three or two major epidemics in Oxford, of what they call plague, but it was probably a form of typhus, in 1643 and 44, and a good deal of sickness, I think, still in 1645, and the other was that there was a very serious fire, which almost certainly arose from these kind of living conditions, because Anthony Wood says it was a soldier roasting pig, erm and I think a lot of cooking went on in very unsuitable situations. And the fire actually started beyond the North Wall, just by the North Gate, but the wind was blowing from the North, and it blew it down, and although it didn't burn the rather better stone houses, facing onto St Aldate's, erm behind I think a lot of the poorer houses did suffer, and St Ebbe's parish, next door, suffered a great deal, and because it was war, I think they just, the city council, city records lament that there how hard it is for people, and there's no money to help them. So it's erm there was in fact a great petition made to the king on these very lines, really because of the fire. So I think life was erm boring, tough, hard-working, pretty unpleasant during the war, erm and I think most of the citizens must have been very very relieved when the surrender finally came, and it brought no actual fighting, and at least the city was left reasonably unscathed. Sir, is Miss not in? No. Could you take your coats off please and come into the blue room. Well who's taking Miss 's class? question? What? the answer. Can you come through please. Right folks Donald is here making typical of English in use from schools at the moment. So if you would er ignore the presence of the microphone that would be helpful. I intend to give you a demonstration today based on work that Kevin has done. He's his plate with hard wax as many of you now have done. He has varnished the back with, can you remember what sort of special old varnish it was? Straw hat. Correct. Well done. Straw hat varnish. Now it's safe from acid attack on the back and on the front except for where he has lightly drawn through the thin wax coating using the etching . Drawn this little character and what I intend to do is put this into acid and etch it. The actual etching process where the acid bites through the liner into the metal and makes a rule. When that's happened I'll take it out of the acid clean it and show you how to take a print from the plate. I would like you all to try to remember the stages of the process because you're going to have to do, as I said to you last lesson, a small write up on this in order to get your unit of accreditation for this work. That is to say your special certificates . Right erm would you normally be room? Would you normally be in this room? Is it likely that there are other pupils who may turn up in that room in a few minutes? Or do you think that you may be the only ones? Are they all on the English trip? Okay. In that case could you just take your coats off and put them somewhere erm out of the way. Please. Now we're gonna be using acid very very dilute acid. Nevertheless we have to take proper precautions. So, if you would be so kind as to get into a position where you can see what I'm doing without being too close it means that if we do splash any acid by accident er the likelihood of it causing any problems to anyone are minimal. Have you come to supervise Miss 's class? As it happens it would seem that most of those children are out on an English trip. Oh. Perhaps you would like to go and do your own thing. Perhaps you'd like to stick around and watch this happening because I remember you subbing once for an etching lesson. Oh it's an etching lesson is it? Yes can you remember? Yes Yesterday wasn't it? And you thought well I'd better not I'm not having them running around . That's right. I remember you saying. So perhaps you'd like to keep them right Have a . and make sure I do it right. But on the other hand if you I don't know how to do it . Oh well I meant from the point of view of . Safe safety point of view. Safety Oh I'll stay for this. Is that alright? Mm. Smashing. Thank you very much. This by the way is er Donald who is making sound recordings of in the school today. . So swearing. Er right my friends. As I say, I would like you to be in fairly close proximity to where I am so that you can see what I'm doing and hear what I'm saying. Er and I don't want you to be too close. I will actually be working to start with in this area here. So perhaps you could arrange yourselves in a semi-circle just round here. Right, my friends we've very strange and wonderful chemicals in this erm I do beg your pardon when we are printing. The one which you will have come across when we were doing lino printing was turps. We had to use turps didn't we, to dissolve the printing inks? Can you remember that, when you did lino printing? Mm But when we're doing screen printing we use very much stronger solvents which can have a nasty effect on your skin. You notice I have slight eczema on the palms of my hands. Some of us have even worse eczema, yeah? So it's really important that we don't irritate our skin. But frankly it's not likely to irritate your skin anyway because er you aren't industrial users of this you would only ever touch these chemicals for a very short time so the any possible side effects they might er have on you will be greatly diminished by the fact that you didn't use them very much. If you're using them in industry, day in day out all day long, then that is the real importance of wearing protective gear. But I'm just going to demonstrate to you just what happens. This lovely supple rubber here is exactly the same supple rubber here at one time but now it's gone all hard and denatured because of the chemicals. So if y if the chemicals will do that over a long period of time to rubber, think what it would do to your skin. Does that make sense? Mm. These lumps have become so erm hardened by these chemicals that I can't er pick up the thin zinc plate from the tub. I'm afraid that Mrs has gone off with, ah Mrs I'll be very grateful if you could bring me in a bowl. You know the one you just took out? You want it back? I wonder if I could have it back please? A a bowl. A a bowl, it doesn't matter which one. Just a plastic bowl please, washing up bowl. Do you want anything in it? Or just water? Er bring it empty and I'll . Thank you very much. I'm gonna have a a bowl of water handy just in case. So having put on these er temporary protective gloves. These are ones I bought long time ago. Erm they're as you can see, still a bit awkward but much easier to use than these. What do you think the other piece of protective gear I might need would be? Goggles. Goggles. Good. And I have a pair of goggles here but there is another safety device built into this which is this window. In fact the tray of acid will go in there so any splashing around I might do, any upward splashing is not likely to reach . You will be relieved to know I've ordered some new rubber gloves like this and some new goggles for next term. But you don't need to use them this term anyway so it's alright. The acid we use is nitric acid. It's very very dilute, only fifteen percent acid the rest is water. And I have used this particular acid already to etch zinc. Can't hear you. Oh. I just, I'll just . I'll see you later. Consequently this acid now contains some zinc which has eaten it away. there'll be a residue of zinc in there. The other metal which I mentioned to you before which is the traditional method for etching is copper, copper plate. And I am told that it is not advisable to use the same batch of acid for etching copper as has been used for etching zinc because the deposits of two metals in the acid creates erm an unpleasant, noxious, possibly poisonous gas and I don't know what that would do. Talking about gas, even this produces gas. Therefore you have this machine which is an extractor. It's called a a fume cupboard I think. A s sort of cupboard. It's open at the front. It has to be because we have to get our hands in. But it's extracting the fumes going out the window. Possibly not very ecologically sound but safer for you at all events. This hasn't been used for some time so it's a bit so I'm just going to wipe it out so there are no particles or foreign bodies in there. And this bit I do before the lesson and I do this, clean it up afterwards. You don't have to do this bit. But notice that I'm pouring slowly and gently away from me into the dish which I shall then put in here, and I'm going to put the the plate, which I described to you before, which has been covered with what's on the back? Straw hat varnish. What's on the front? Hard wax. Hard wax. And scratched so the acid should bite through there. Has anybody got a chronometer on them? What? you have haven't you? What? A watch. Will you time er two minutes please? From the moment this goes into the acid. You lower it in gently and sloosh it about so that the acid covers the surface. Right, you may troop by that and look down there, notice I wasn't wearing the goggles that was naughty of me wasn't it? I should have been er while I go and get a turkey feather. Okay, you go and have a look at that covered up. And try and see if we've got er forming on the lines. yes. That's what makes er these chemicals so dangerous, you don't know what they are. What do you think I've got this for? Sorry, I can't hear you Paul. So that er I still can't hear you. To scrape the zinc off. To scrape the zinc off? When it's ? Very good, yes. That's correct. As the zinc is eaten away air bubbl er sorry not air bubbles gas bubbles I don't know what gas. Any idea what gas might be being produced? No I was trying to think it's zinc. And it's in a basin of hydrogen Zinc and nitrate. and it would give off nitrate wouldn't it? Zinc nitrate? Which isn't a gas. Which isn't a gas. It's a salt. So perhaps some odd hydrogen is produced as well. Well that sometimes happens when there's Two minutes? Right. Yeah I think the two minutes is up. David's timed two minutes. Now when that acid is fresh and hasn't been used before two minutes is usually quite enough for it to have done the job it's supposed to do. This is an imprecise operation because since the acid has been used I don't know how many times because the temperature, the ambient temperature in the room varies. In the winter when it's cold it works more slowly now when it's very hot it will, should work more quickly. Er I can't say precisely leave it in the acid for so and so time. So we always this has always been the case for the four five hundred years that people have been doing etching, so they go by a rule of thumb. The rule of thumb is this when the first cluster of bubbles is fully formed, sweep them away with a bird's wing feather. So I have duly swept them away. Which means that the acid can get back in there. That the air bubble er the gas bubble, I keep saying air bubble, that's wrong. They are gas bubbles. The gas bubbles forming along the lines were keeping the acid out of the lines. So I've swept them away so that the acid can get back in. When the second set of bubbles is formed it's done. That's the rule of thumb. Okay? Two formations of bubbles and it's bitten deep enough. So I suppose that was about two and a half minutes wasn't it? So I would think that we're working on a five minute schedule . Don't forget that when they first did this, people would not have had personal watches. And there may only have been one clock in the town where they worked and that would have been on the town hall or the church. Clocks are a very recent er introduction as far as ordinary er working conditions are concerned. What might have they have had to measure the time as it passed? Egg timer. Sundial. Sundial, yes. But that might not have been too convenient. Egg timer. Say it was night for instance. Pardon? One of them sand things. One of them sand things. Who knows what they're called? Egg timer. An egg timer is what we use them for now. Do you know what the traditional name for them is? Anybody know? It's called an hourglass. Have you heard that before? No. Sir. You scratched your nose and you've got acid on them gloves. Right. I did didn't I? Yeah. But I I should come out in great welts soon and start looking like an American werewolf in London. Right, my face will start falling off. Quite right. You must be careful not to unconsciously touch anything with even the gloves. And you should wash the gloves as soon as you've touched the acid. I should have done that straight away. Well spotted. I will do it now. Say that again Paul, please. I'm sorry Paul, I can't understand you. Something about an extractor? Yes. Yes. Yes. It might be harmful to your lungs. It hasn't been used yet. But it's not er as good as Well that's what it says it is on the erm on the outside. Orange spot on me notes . Mm? see what it was. Now it's green. That means it's been used with copper. We have a suspicion that very little reaction has taken place because in fact very few bubbles have risen to the surface. This could be I don't think acid spends itself as it sits in a bottle does it? No. It stays the same configuration. Mm. It's erm if you've used that lots and lots of times it may have used up all the . It may have exhausted mayn't it? Yeah. So because it worked last time I used it. I'm hoping that it has worked this time. It's been in there much longer than I'd normally leave it. So, it will either have not worked at all for some obscure reason or it will have worked well and . So whatever has happened, I'm now going to remove it from the acid. I'm going to wash it. And then we're going to remove the wax coating . Okay? So I wonder whilst I do that er if you would just take note of the safety precautions here. Again one should wear one's goggles, no? One should. Notice where I've put the feather please. I've put it resting on the dish so that any acid from it doesn't get on to that bench there. Drain off the acid. Please note if I leave any splashes on the bench. Did I leave any splashes on the bench? Yes. Right. Loads. As you will. I've now rinsed that in there so it's so dilute now that when I pour it away hardly a trace of it there. take a cloth and I'll clean up where I've been. You should do that every time. You'll also be provided with an apron to protect your clothes. Ooh. Right? So that's the spec on that. These I will dispose of now. But when we have a prop proper set of gloves we ought to put the gloves and the goggles there ready for the next person to use. And make sure when you leave the place I hope that you have washed them and you've washed those. Okay, er yes I think it may have actually etched, we may be in luck. I hope so. Would you come over to that bench over there. Right folks, can you all see? I don't want you too cramped. Can you move round this side a bit. As you can see, the wax has dissolved away extremely quickly, easily except for that lump. Do you remember that lump Kevin? Mm. And it didn't do any harm at all, that lump. You can just Has it worked then? it has worked extremely well and you can all even see can't you Mhm the fact that there are etched lines in there. Can you see it alright from where you are? It's a little sort of er science fiction monster. Now the turps will not I think dissolve this varnish because this varnish is alcohol based varnish. You have to use an alcohol solvent to remove that when we need to remove it. My next task is to find some printing As you can see printing ink is delivered both in tins and if we have any left there may be somewhere, in tubes. Yeah. Or you make it yourself. This powder here Right. That's the commercial name for it. It's carbon. Mm? It's carbon or soot. Right. That's right. Do you know what soot is? That's right. Now if I were to mix some of that with another substance I could make printing ink. What would the other substance be? Water. Erm it would have to be if it were with water I'd have to put something else in as well otherwise the stuff wouldn't stay on the page. It would just fall off like a dust. So if I were using, making a water based printing ink, what other stuff would I have to put in as well as water? Oil? No because oil and water don't mix. Pardon? Something to thicken it but think of stickiness. Glue? Glue, yes. You'd have to put glue powder and water in to make a water based printing ink. Or erm a base which er dried water impermeable such as EBA. But the traditional etching printing ink is oil based. So one would use copper plate oil. This stuff here, which is actually dried out but it's you can smell it, it still has the aroma of linseed oil which is what it is. Can you sniff it? It smells like oil. It smells like oil, but not like three in one oil. I think you'll find put some solvent into it it would erm Meing Does that mean smelly? So I'm not going to show don't confuse that with this which is oil derived from petroleum products. Linseed oil is mostly made out of the seeds of the lin linen plant. You've heard of linen haven't you? So, there's probably going to be a little bit of ink left in here rather than opening those. Now, don't be horrified, this is the whole point of these formica benches is that we can work directly on to them. I'm gonna put some printing ink on there. It's one of the reasons why I tell you not to sit on benches because you'll probably find the residues of ink along the edges even after the most careful clean up. I'm going to take a, a roller these are very expensive, very classy rollers. Much higher quality than the bioprinting rollers that we may be used to using. And therefore they must be carefully looked after. Er these little feet here are for the roller to stand on. Please don't let me catch you rollers on benches. Don't spread this all over the bench. You only spread it in a square no bigger than the width of the roller. The idea is to cover the complete surface of the roller in the printing ink. You see how beautifully evenly it's taken up that ink. You keep your You've missed a bit sir. You'll fi you'll find that . Don't worry. You know roll that on to the plate which unfortunately may still have a film of turpentine on it from when I cleaned it. Strictly speaking I should have taken it from here to where to get rid of the turps? The sink. No. Oh the chalk. The chalk, good. The chalk tray. So the chalk could have absorbed up the grease. It may take, yes it is taking. Because we've been talking for a while so had time for it to evaporate. Good. The next thing you use, three scrim rags. Believe it or not one of these is the dirty one one is the not very dirty one and one is the clean one. Now they may all look dirty to you but this one has been used less and it therefore has less . This one has erm taken over from the medium one. This was the clean one. This one's the third one. This one's been used a lot of times. last time this was used about two years ago so it's a bit stiff. Normally you'd find that these were quite er limp, soft. Now the method of plate is to gather the Why are you wiping it if you've just put it on? Very good question. See if you can answer the question without me yourself. Because it runs into the grooves. Exactly so. Well done. Well done. And that is something I haven't told you at all. That when you do lino printing you are printing from the surface of the lino block, the bit you've cut away doesn't print. And that's called erm er a special word which I've forgotten for the moment. . When you print from the cuts that you make in the plate it's called intaglio printing. I N T A G Intag A G L I O, intaglio. Which means putting . Whilst I'm thinking of that notice the way I into the middle of the plate . Did you see that sort of semi-circular wiping motion. I then twist the plate forty five degrees and then keep doing that and Paul, can you see the ink taken up on the grooves there? And I'm giving it three wipes each time. I'll be working to the middle now. Now the rag I should be using for this is the very dirty one and I've started off with the clean one by accident. I should have started with the rag most loaded with ink. I should have then gone on to the next cleanest one and finished off with the cleanest one. That's what I should have done but I got them in the wrong order. However, It doesn't matter. it doesn't matter because all of them are as it happens fairly er new and indeed as Kevin says quite correctly, dry because they haven't been used for a long time. Now there are still traces of ink on the surface but now you can much more clearly see the etch lines because they're full of now. The next stage is the actual printing itself. Now notice that no matter that I've been careful, my hands have got printing ink on them. And your hands will doubtless get with printing ink. What professional printers do at this stage or fine art printers would be to take their piece of paper using little paper fingerstalls so they didn't get their fingerprints on the paper. I am going to be less particular, but I've got to find some paper first. Excuse me for a moment. Right, this process that I'm about to do should take place on that table there, normally. We have to be very methodical when we do this. Inking up on that table only. Wetting the paper, Jamie Karen erm on that table. Erm so I'll just move my briefcase. And before you start printing you should dampen some paper. I'm going to do a wee demonstration on how to do it now. You dip it in with the leading edge let the water pour over it, then drain it off. Put it down, put your next piece in Is that is that ?? Correct. Ah! It should be much better quality thick cartridge paper, preferably handmade but that costs I think I've said to you before about ten quid a sheet. Notice how this is beautifully covered with my fingerprints now which it wouldn't be if I was handling it properly. How big are the sheets that you get for ten quid? They are about what you would call A one. They're that size. Ooh. Aye but can you use it over and over again or not? No Erm you can divide that sheet up into well using a small p Can you not use the same bit twice? You can't use the same bit more than once, no. Waste of money eh? No it's not. What for? One thing. So? Right the next stage. You take a piece of perfectly clean white tissue paper and you place it on the of the etching plate. As close to the rollers as possible, just there. You place the slightly warm etching plate, so if you pop it on there for about half a second to get the printing ink nicely mobile and you put it printing ink face up. You take your moistened paper it shouldn't be dripping wet like this, it should have had time to dry out a bit. And you place it carefully on the printing plate so there's lots of spare paper round it because the essence of a good etching is that it has breathing space all the way round. You don't crop an etching to it's edges. You now place the Sir . What? In there? Aye. Don't worry about it . I'll explain why in a minute. But it's straight not found to my cost in the past. So you put it under both like this. Thanks for mentioning that. You'll see that the pressure is must be quite enormous and produced a raised section there. Erm you peel off the tissue paper and you have your first print. And of course it's the Ooh the wrong way round isn't it? All printing is. So you must remember if you ever put any lettering on when you're printing that you must write it backwards. . Right so that, it's a bit grey isn't it? If you wanted it to be a perfectly white background then you would also use bits of white tissue paper for a final polish on the surface. And if you watch this technique, these Sir Why do you think you put tissue paper on the on the erm base of this? Soak up the linseed. So the varnish so the varnish doesn't get scratched? So the varnish doesn't get scratched. Good point. Anything else? In case any ink runs off the side? Mhm. Good one. To protect it. to protect the steel on the . Use the, that part of your hand to polish the surface in a circular motion, like that. And as you can see, even after three print I've managed to lift off quite a lot of scum from the surface. Consequently that would print pretty clean. We've cleaned that . So, Paul was worried that I hadn't put it in straight weren't you Paul? Didn't you mention it? You said Oh aye. I hadn't put it in straight. Yeah. Well it's perfectly true. It's very hard to to gauge when it's in straight. If you leave plenty of selvage round the edge, later on you can crop that slightly so that it is a perfect ninety degree . That's basically it. And that's the way you print whether you're doing hard wax, soft wax or aquatint ? Very good. I'm glad you mentioned that. You should take at least six prints of every impression. We haven't got time today I don't think Kevin? Can you check the watch again? Ten past. Ten past, and we finish at? Twenty five past. Twenty five past, right. I will I I will say to Kevin yeah? Take a print, see if you can do it. But, remember these are wet so you have to leave them out, flat to dry. And then of course we sign them up later. And I'll have to teach you precisely how to sign them up. You must also learn how to clean up after yourselves. Mrs clean er tables for you when we've been doing now you have to do it yourselves. So I will give you a bit of instruction on how to do that now. You will take one of these blocks you will wet it for a certain time and you lay it on there. Get the roller and roll it on there so it'll dissolve off the ink. Yes? Yes. Then you would erm do it again with a clean one so that this ended up looking as clean as that. You have to pay attention to that part and that part too. Then you would take the same rag and wipe that off and then the piece of cleaner cloth, bit more turps, clean the desk. And you put all the equipment you have used safely back in the correct tins and on the correct shelf. Sir ? Wear those . It's not very nice to wear them because you get that is the end product. Thank you for your attention. If you'd like to go into the next room, please. display I have to put out. No. You need one sheet you put that on there. ink your plate up and put it face up You don't need that one. Well,. But ink it up using the rags. Well, Cathy what's sister do to you? Just me back Doctor. I've had an awful weekend, right. I think maybe I've got a chill or something. And I was Aha. just in there. You're a bad woman. You're a bad woman doing that to yourself. That and constant headaches,. But I had to get an appointment, I had to get something I I put hot water And it's made no difference, made no difference. Right. Now what are you on in the way of tablets,Cathy? Are you still on your Froben Aye. Still on the Froben What about the Tylex I tried the they keep me, now and again with them Doctor, they make They're not me awfully sick. They make you sick? But I don't tell that doctor. I've told him and he gave that wee white one and it's, I still take the kind of, but I do go on them you know, when I'm really bad. Aye. But this pain's down in here, it's Right. it's awfully sore. I, I told them when I was over week, but he just says to keep giving 'em a tr give 'em a chance. Aha. Well don't keep going too long with them if they're doing that to you Cathy cos No. nobody thanks you for it. It's the sickness, it just, you seem to take in every kind of sickness with it. That's right. Even with the wee tablet. Yeah. If it really gets bad take them. Well. There we are now. I've given you something to kill the pain, Cathy, and I've given you an antibiotic Aha. to get the insides cleaned out as well. Think maybe it's a chill or something? Sounds awful like it. Oh it's awfully sore. Sounds awful like it. There we are curly, and that'll set you out of mischief for a wee while . Just for a Just for a wee while. . Geriatrics. Coming to bits, coming to bits . Right Cathy. Thanks very much. Right, cheerio now. Cheerio. This is a conversation with Mr Swinton in Galashiels. Mr is seventy two. Right Mr . Well er I think some of my earliest memories are er dating to the First World War time when I was a boy and we lived in Street which er during the war, we made a shift to which was really the opposite side of the street. Yeah. It was a peculiar street because Street was on a higher level and at one time, the dam which must have been open, now the dam when I mention the dam, it's the mill lead, but known to everybody in Galashiels as the dam. And it runs through the town and was the means of driving the waterwheels in the old days in the factories. And er this divided this street into two but at probably a number of years before, it had been tunnelled in and the top part of the street was called Street and there, there was a slight hill run down to . Now my father had the garage in . It was er he had had it since my grandfather had had the same place as a blacksmith's shop and then my father followed on with the garage with cycles first of all, and then when the motor trade came in, he started in motors repairing. Motor repairing. Had the garage been a, a erm a stable at one time? Was it, did, did he have stabling or for coaches? No. I think it, like in Galashiels there seemed to be a lot of rows of one storey cottages at one time in that part. And at a later date, part of them had been, another storey had put on to them. Er but at that time this, this, the blacksmith's shop was really made in a, a one storey cottage. Then the gardens were befind behind the front row and then there would be another row of cottages behind that again. Now as the garage grew, the, the blacksmith's shop was, it still remained in the same place but the remainder of the cottages were made into the garage, and the garden ground in between was filled in between with sheds with corrugated iron roofs. And it made a long garage. A deep garage. And then in these days there were pits for going underneath the cars er dug into the ground so as you could get underneath the cars. There were no lifts lifting the cars up at that time. What year did your fathers er cy wh it was really a bicycle shop that he had but i Yes. erm did he tr er make it into a garage? I should think round about nineteen hundred or nineteen hundred and one or two som it was Was that the first in Gala? Er no. There had been a shop in Street I which is still there but it's been used for other things now. But they were the first people to sell a motor car in Galashiels. They called them James . And er they had sold a car in eighteen ninety eight I think it was. The first motor car in Galashiels. And er that was before registration of cars. I can't find out what make of car it would be, but it would probably be a, a French or German car. And it was sold to a wealthy manufacturer. Well a, a mill owner, the owner of the skin works in Galashiels, a Mr . And this er was the first car in Galashiels. But we came into it about after nineteen hundred I should say. We bought an engine in Edinburgh, a gas engine, run off the town's gas to drive the machinery we had. Er we also did general engineering because my father was an engineer er and my grandfather was a blacksmith, my father was an engineer. The machinery of course was driven by the gas engine first of all. In later years that, it was driven by an electric motor. But the shafting, of course it was driven off the shafting and we had l lathes and drilling machines. And an ideal little workshop for anybody doing work as they did in the early days, most of the components of a motor car had to made. Labour was cheap of course, time was no object in these days . And of course er when an article became, when you needed an article or something broke down in the car and you needed to m=make something up on the lathe o it was made on the premises. Later on of course the change in the trade, components were readily got as cars became more popular. And er there were not so many i in the older days every car was an individual thing. But in the later days when they made mass production was coming in, the components for them, it was easier to buy a component and fit it than to, to make up a, a piece in your own workshop. But er I w I would think, although it's before my time, I would think that er of what I've heard my father talking about these early days, there was great enthusiasm for motorcycles and of course some of the early registered numbers you'll find that there's many of them were motorcycles, the young men of the town who had probably been cyclists, quite a number of them er took up this motorcycling and they made their own motorcycles so were buying either kits and er even manufacturing the tanks and these things themselves. And our er workshop was open for and they got every assistance and every help from my father in these days. Mhm. They these when I remember the garage, it was a series of er lock up garages in the front, with a central one opening right through to the back. And er by that time the w the horse shoeing has gone out. My father had first er he had, him being an engineer, and had been working in Glasgow after his er having served his apprenticeship at Amos the, it was the thing to go to Glasgow in these days which was the centre of all engineering activity, and er to gain experience he went to Glasgow. And er also many engineers when they were out their time, they went to Glasgow and for a few years, he, everybody who went from Galashiels, word got through to him and he met them at the station and got them settled in their digs in Glasgow. And er Would, this would be about the turn of the century ? It would be about before, it would be eighteen ninety seven I should think. When my grandfather died in er just about that year. Er eighteen ninety seven he died. And er i he that, my father came back to run the business for my grandmother. And er later on he took it into his own name you see. But er his erm father h was the blacksmith and he had been born away up , and er he came to Ga he came to serve his time in a blacksmith's shop at and er The one that's still there? Still there today, aye. It's still there in, in today. He came to serve his time in , he came from a place they called Green, which was a track between the hills away up . And er it was probably where the drovers came through, it's a drove road and I, I haven't been quite able to find out what he di I think he would be a shepherd probably. And my grandf yeah my great grandfather This is your grandfather's father, your great grandfather. Mm. And he died in eighteen forty eight when my grandfather would be about probably eight year or nine year old I think. Er he, the family, must have came at a later date into Galashiels. Of course Galashiels in, in, at that period was the place for everybody to come to. Because the mills were thriving and you would come to Galashiels and get a job right away. But first of all he served his time in the smithy at and he met his wife, my grandmother in which was quite, you can quite imagine, it was just a walk up over the hills and er he met her in and er they were married. She had been born in Edinburgh but only mad chance because I think that the family were only there a short time. They belonged and they had to come back to . And they were shoemakers. And er their name was . Er there's none of them left now except an old M Mrs in who is over a hundred. And she's the last of the family. In the borders, there's some in, in England but er that, that family has died out in the borders. Er mostly anyway there is a, a relative I believe er in the town but er my grandfather after he had served his time at smithy, got a, a job in Galashiels in one of the big factories, which was er was the name of the manufacturers there. It was one of the big mills and er there's still parts of it yet, in use, one of the high buildings is still there. And er he was there for quite a number of years and then went to just for a few years, and came back to Galashiels to work with the same firm and then he started business on his own. He, I say, in these days, blacksmiths made bicycles. And we have a bicycle which he made in the year eighteen seventy, that was before he had started business on his own and he had erm made it for a young solicitor in Galashiels and I believe it was used in a race from Galashiels from Place in Galashiels to the . Where five of these boneshakers or velocipedes took part. And er this bicycle well it would go out of fashion and was put in a, a loft in one of the, it must have changed hands from Mr whom it was made for. Er it er w was found in a loft in Mill about the year nineteen hundred. And they were going to throw it on the scrap heap but somebody in the mill the said, that was the bicycle that Adam had made. And we got it back into the family and it's been with us ever since. During all our alterations I've seen it in the old garage away up in a loft and I've seen it put out in the back yard in the rain, and I've always saved it and it's there today. And er after er my grandfather made that bike, after he started business on his own, he had, well the next thing came in was the penny farthing bicycle. Mhm. And of course blacksmiths still worked on the penny farthing bicycle. And I have lots of letters which I discovered about five years ago, which I thought were probably letters that my father had written it, Adam , because his name and my grandfather's name were exactly the same. But when I looked at the date, my father could only have been about twelve year old you see, when these letters were written so it must have been my grandfather writing to Coventry and Birmingham for parts for the penny farthing bicycles which he worked on. And er these were er he would do a lot of the iron work, because a lot of the iron work would be forged. But wheels and these sort of things would be got from Coventry in , I think, the maker's the, the same people who invented the, the safety bike. They were er these letters are to one of these firms. And erm these er he must have given up bicycles when the penny farthing was outdated. And er there's quite a number of years h he, there was many bicycle shops in Galashiels when the new safety bike came in, and blacksmiths probably didn't bother doing any work on them. It was mainly newer bicycle shops. But when my father took over, when he came back to Galashiels, he started in bicycles and there was quite probably ten bicycle shops in Galashiels at that time and er he gave, well he, he attracted business with his efficient way of repairing bicycles and er it's funny that after about a number of years, we were between the last, after the last war I should say, the Second World War, er we were about the only people for, for a period the only bicycle shop in Galashiels. There's more now but th at that period we were the only one left . Then we, father er with doing the bicycles and with interest in other engineering things like gas engines, which seemed to have a, a period of er great prosperity I would say er in the period between nineteen hundred or maybe a few years before that until early twenties the, the gas engines were ideal things for little factories. And er you even find them in some of the mills er in Galashiels and in er as the taking place of steam. And of course the, or driving part of the mill I wouldn't say they completely took over from steam. But they just went out of fashion as well. And er when electric motors came in naturally and each individual machine was driven by an electric motor. Er well this maybe gave him a an insight into working on gas engines, er I couldn't really say. But he erm he was once burned very severely with one of them blowing out, and he's b he suffered from it all his life after that. But er er when you looked at his skin he was all burned in the front and er with this exp explosion of a gas engine. Mhm. Now in the period that I come into it would be the First World War, when we had er, of course in these days, the thing we always, to look at the motor trade then, it was a follow up from the carriage trade. Because motor cars didn't go at great speeds and nobody would dream of taking a motor car to Edinburgh when the railway was there and could get you in Edinburgh within three quarters of an hour. But the, the motor car was used firstly for taking people back and forward to the station. In place of the old horse and cab. And then of course people had picnics on the Sundays of the summer and er so on it grew more quite a lot from the hiring. And then after when there was practically no erm commercial trade with them at that time. Any commercial vans or lorries seemed to be made out of what was originally private cars. And which is natural because you know, the very early motor cars were only a sort of toy for the rich as it were and er when it came to you see er grocer's vans or, or er laundry vans made out of old pr private cars. And then of course when the First World, World War came along,th a lot of cars were remade into ambulances and er then of course the lorries began to be, come into their own. There were there wouldn't be very many before the wirst First World War. But after the First World War, there seemed to be quite a lot of lorries. And of course after the war broke up, there were quite a lot of X W D lorries, lorries on the market and they were converted into a erm charabancs which was an open bus as it were. And er they, we had a, a stake in that too at the very beginning er we did have a converted er X W D lorries into charabancs and we also got some newer ones. But this ceased in nineteen twenty six. When we sold to another firm. Er who ran bus services from Gala to Selkirk and Melrose and er we sold out to them because we, the other side of the business where the private car side seemed to be growing. And we just hadn't the time to do both. And er it was quite a good move I think, to dispose of the, the charabancs and concentrate on the private cars. We then got the, the agency for Morris, which was a very popular car and erm we also got the agency for Austins, which er, it came about with father being interested in a hiring car, the Austin Twenty, he thought it was, it was the best that could be got. And he went into the main agent in Edinburgh and gave them an order for three of those, and of course, we didn't get them just right away because er probably we'd have got the last one about a couple of years later in these days . But anyway we, they must have been so impressed by the, the order that they got, that they gave us the agency for Galashiels and Selkirk for the Austin. And of course, the next year, the Austin Seven came on the market and proved to be one of the most popular cars in the market. So that the foundation of your future prosperity in a sense. That was we were main one of the, my father seen er possibilities er when he attended the London show, he went er he, he was very much taken on with the Morris Cowley first of all. And he went to, he decided to go straight to Oxford before he came back to Galashiels and er see William Morris who was Lord Nuffield later on. But he, we, we were offered the agency for the four counties in the borders. But as we were very small people in these days, he could only see his way to take Selkirkshire and Peebleshire. He'd probably have been better to have taken Selkirkshire and Roxburghshire. But however that's the way things went and er we were distributors for the Morris for Selkirkshire and Peebleshire. And held it right up until recently. Which the, the organization changed you see and er it wasn't through our fault but er distrib they wanted some, a main agent in every town after that. And the distributorship sort of fell through. But that was only after we had it for about thirty years or, or more. To go back to your own life Mr , erm you could you er were you always interested in engineering as a boy? No. I would say of the three brothers, I was the one that was least interested in engineering. I always had a sort of inclination towards buildings, architecture and that sort of thing. But being the son of my father, it was his aim to send me out to serve my time as an engineer. Which I really I went to Amos and I didn't like it but of course I had to stick it. But I, I only s er times were very poor as it was nineteen twenty seven, twenty eight and things were very poor in the mills especially. And of course a lot of the engineering was on textile machinery and er I didn't, I just wouldn't go back to it after I'd been at it about a couple of years. I wouldn't finish my apprent and I came into our own firm and started with bicycles and motorcars. Right up until I wasn't able to do any more and able to, like all engineers you get most of the men when you get to the stage where you're not able to crawl under cars and do things like that so you you find another bu business, we went into sales and, and er accessories, stores and that I've been in all that line in the last twenty years before I retired. Did all your schooling take place in Gala? Yes, my schooling I went to the School in nineteen seventeen in the middle of the First World War. And er we had er a very fine teacher then when er I can look back in pleasure when I went to school. They were Miss was the teacher and the, the next three classes I would say with great pleasure, and then we came to one of the old ones which er they were more severe, probably she used the tawse a lot. And we used to c as we had nicknames for the ones we didn't like, she was called . So er we didn't like er so we, she was a Miss of course. And we had erm we, there was a few changes during that time, we used to get troops coming in and occupying the classroom, and we maybe, at the very early days I can remember having to go to the Street School and also the Street Hall which belong that was a church hall. But we only went for half a day at that period and then for a month or so then the troops went away again, we got back into our own school. I can remember the, the days of the, the armistice when we thought there was a lot of the with the teachers and er, this is faintly in my mind, we heard all the mill whistles blowing. And er then we knew that the war was finished. And then every year after that, they used to hold the one minute's silence which the mill whistles went and of course you stood for a minute and then they went again and that was it over. And this carried on, right on well practically until the second war. And er then we had a bit, there was a victory organization of the schools then. We had to go from the School to the School for two years and back to the School again, and er finally we'd go to the Academy. But I went to a private school after that, I went to one run by a Mr , Mr E M . He was a grand master er and er you got Greek and Latin and all these sort of things. But I didn't er I think his teaching days, he was getting rather old and he didn't control us as he should have been able to. And er it was a mixed school of course some of ours er different ages you see because it was just one big classroom. And er however it's funny that you, things remain with you, er even in the Greek and Latin, I often find when I'm doing a crossword puzzle, something I don't think I would ever take in, and yet I seem to, can answer the question. About er er the son of er Greek goddesses or something . The, after the school I was never one for er I never was a great one for sport. Although I did go and watch the rugby, I never was a great one for, and I, I used to swim quite a lot. Mhm. But er most of my interests were in motoring actually er in the days of er after we left the school after I was driving, of course I was er, these were the days when if you had a motorcar, the whole world was at your feet, and er you could go all over Britain if you, just for petrol at one and thruppence ha'penny a gallon or something like that. And er therefore er w we made the most of it, my chum and I, Sid , we were in nineteen thirty two I would think we would be o one of the first hundred people or so to go with a, a week's f er tour to Paris by air. A package deal. The, the Imperial Ai Airways had just er they had just received four big planes er which they put on the Paris er route. And I think we were going, first of all it was a firm Polytechnic Tours in London. We had booked up for the ordinary ship and, and rail you know, to go over by ship and rail but er during the months awaiting the, I think we were going in July and er we had booked up maybe about April, but they had put these planes on and Polytechnic wrote to us and said, if we paid two pounds ten extra, we could go by air and we did it and the full tour for a week in Paris, going by air, was twelve pounds ten. And that included two tours as well. And we flew from er that was from London, we flew from the Croydon Airport in London, and er we, you went down to er an, a small office near Victoria Station in these days and er you w we, you put your luggage in there and then they took you out on a special bus to Croydon. And we only flew about I think it was four thousand feet, that we flew and we thought this was terribly high. And then and of course as far as I remember we, you could hear the noises of the engines of course, terrible, not, not like planes today. And you could also feel the, the shuddering of the, the wings and the fuselage er and er it was rather frightful you know, if you hadn't been before. But er it's so simple today when you realize the, the difference, how easy it is and but er that was an experience I can tell you. Can you possibly remember how much you were paid for your apprenticeship with Amos ? Yes, I have the slip somewhere, and my father I didn't keep it but my father must have kept it, but I discovered it one day and it was seven and thruppence I think for the first week's pay. And that was the common thing in these days. With er apprentices was seven and thruppence or seven and six or something like that. And that would be about the m m the m m m nineteen twenties. Nineteen twenty seven I would think. Mhm. Nineteen twenty seven.. And er your working week was what? Well erm eight o'clock in the morning till quarter to six I think it was then in the evening. Er there must have been a at one time it, it had been six o'clock I think it was a quarter to six we finished. And of course there was a thing we w a lot of the work in the mills was in or Selkirk and of course you went to the early train in the morning, there was a train from Galashiels to and it was full of workers going to the mills in and of course if you going er to work in a mill there, your, your foreman would come, you would draw the tools, at the, the night before you went to the job, you would take them there to the train in the morning, and meet the foreman and you would go to to do the job and the same to Selkirk. And these sort of jobs would be repair work or construction work? Er textile machinery er I can't remember us doing very much except er dismantling machinery Mm. er because at that time there was quite a lot, you would get one mill in probably with somewhere about seventy looms in it and there would only b be less than ten of them working. The, it was into the depression period. It had been b I think a lot of the mills had been during the very, the years after the war, they had been very busy and a lot of them would build sheds and b take up looms that were, you, they probably had new looms on order but they were filled with a lot of scrap almost you know, anything they could get that work, work. And er they were, well quite a lot of them were scrapped in the days when the depression came on. And erm the I, I can't remember er oh I think most of the work up there that I was on, we were doing different jobs in the mill, like er when very too when the mills were closed at the holidays, we, we used to go up and work in some of the mills. And er we had er I've seen us work er I think one of the jobs was on shafting and things like that mostly. didn't work on the machinery so much. Er but as I say, I wasn't very long at that so er when I came back to the, the motor trade, and bicycle trade, motor trade, cars in these days you get a variety of er all sorts of cars. Some of them were some had got old cars in where the tyres, if it was a puncture it was these great big wheels with beaded edge tyres which you can, you put on in quite a different way from the modern car tyres. You had to put them all on in a piece you see with the tube in it and er things became much easier when the wheel base trim came in. Er then of course er petrol, before that I was in the, before I started the work we used to go out delivering petrol and petrol was all done in tins, two gallon tins. There was no petrol pumps. And er they were kept in a special store which had to be three feet into the ground you know, for safety. And every big mansion house had a place about at least ten feet away from the house, where they had a store for holding the tins. And each of the places er where we got the supply of tins, er we had a little van that went out to deliver the tins and we delighted as boys, going out, carrying the two tins er into the place. And er the cars then of course were all painted in, there were no cellulose paint, we had a paint shop there but er it, and we had an old painter who used to paint the cars in enamel and they were an awful lot of work on them. And of course you had to have great dustsheets to keep the dust. Because if it had been painted, and the paint took quite a long time to dry and er if there was a speck of dust it remained there forever. Or or you would have to take the whole thing off again. So there were, the place was specially big dustsheets and kept the dust off the paint. And there was a lot of rubbing down and that sort of thing. After the cellulose paint came in of course, things were quite different. They had to be done in a special, you know where they extracted the, the fumes away from the, the paint shop. And of course it was a very much harder paint. Did you go to a technical college at all? in the evenings, everybody then went to the technical college here. It, it at least u two nights a week. And er that was the old college in Street. I can remember it well, it was lit by gas e even in these days you know it would have been all electric light but it was gas and er we had erm, I would go for engineering drawing and maths probably I think. I just can't remember. Of course, for about two years you know after and everybody went to something or other. It was the done thing. There was no er you, you thought nothing about it. And what about er your life, you started really on the sort of bicycle and repair side of life Yes. erm how did that e wh wh what did your father pay you in those days for that? Oh well, being the boss's son I probably got ten shillings a week probably Ten. when I started I would think . And er later on er I would be er wages I think were then about three pound something, in the, very little more than three pounds. For a skilled man? Yes. For a skilled man. Er they had been very much lower th er er in nineteen hundred and ten when we, I have some of the books showing you know, as little as er thirteen shillings a week for a skilled man you see and that sort of thing. But erm and of course my father was also an inventor, he had, he had done, everything was used. We he had a patent on what we called aiming race for laying guns in, during the First World War. He, it was for the, you know, the, the instructor w would come round and see if you had aimed the thing, it was a tripod sort of thing. Now orders came from and Sons the printers who were great target printers, and are still today the great target printer. Now orders came from the, and also we had orders for th, e the falling target in the you know, of a, a rifle range where you had to er put up the frames you know with a target on it and er we made a lot of these during the First World War. W that bit we gave up after the First World War but we made er we did make some of these er patented things that they had in the Second World War. Er he also, everything was used, they were made out of gas piping and what got the piping in certain lengths and there's always a bit, a small bit about a foot left over, he made these into gas pokers. And er the things that we had, we had a or two when they used to be, when all the cars most of them were open of course in the early days and except for the, the limousines who were chauffeur driven. But er there were so many open cars and we had an upholsterer who er made the hoods and repaired the hoods and upholstery and er we even made things out of the old scraps of these er just to, we made bags for, for carrying trade plates for er people going away for cars. To Oxford and, and Birmingham. And er I used to go myself quite a lot er when there were well when there were more than one coming up I've seen me go into, down in the pullman train from here to er, well we had about five changes I think,fat father had it all marked out so as you changed at a certain place. We used to walk from New Station at New Street Station at Birmingham u up to Snow Hill Station. Now that's all away now there's, there's no Snow Hill I don't think you can really find out where it was nowadays. But we got into a train there and went to, to Crewe I think it was. And then there was a certain place where we would go to a breakfast on the train. Then he landed in Oxford just at the right time to go out to the factory and it was open, and you had to get your car as soon as you could and see that everything was all right. And erm if you noticed anything, get it done before you left the works you see. And then he, he got on the road and he, we usually took, he had to run it er not more than twenty five miles and hour, and er you had to run it, we, we stopped at Preston if we could get there. That was one of the stopping places. And then the next day we brought it home. But er that was one of the things er he kep it was an enjoyable trip and the roads were in these days, er you get the motorways today, I just think on the roads, what they were in these days, there was even some places we went through a ford in the middle of the road, with the water about two or three inches deep. And er there was very little money spent on the roads at that time, the, the railways had been the great carriers of everything and the motorcars were just coming in . And er but, but w I did see the roads improving continuously through all these years. Did your brothers go with you into the family business? Yes, my oldest brother, they were older than me er my brothers, there was one two years older, there was one seven years older than me. And er I was really the youngest, there was one in between who had died. Er but he had died actually as a very young child. The then of course when the wartime came along, the last war, I didn't, I didn't used to rush away, I, I had that sense to not just, to rush on to the with the rest of them, so I joined the fire brigade, the regular fire brigade. And er I was unmarried at that time and erm I, for a number of, well till nineteen forty was the end of nineteen forty I think, I joined up and went into the, the R A O C as it was then, it became the the side that I was in of course. In a workshop which was being made up Then we went on to er, it was funny that we passed through London, the very s day or second day that word arrived that the invasion was on, the troops had arrived in, in Normandy. And oh the reception we got in London. They thought that we were going straight, we and we thought so too that we would just go straight over the, through London . And of course everybody after years of gloom were all absolutely er treating everybody you know. We just couldn't get off we had the Metropolitan Police escorting us through you see, to the, we were going to the south. Er where I ended up in Barracks which was a guards barrage barracks near . In Surrey. And then we started we thought, oh well we'll just th be guarding then we'll be away. However we, the next thing we knew was the flying bombs began to come over. And of course this, there, we couldn't understand it what these things were that went flying through the sky and er aeroplane tried to chase them. Of course they couldn't because they weren't speedy enough. And then the next thing you heard er away in the distance some had landed about Croydon or Streatham or something and, and some landed in the hills rounds about us. One landed in the very centre of er East Grinstead too. But er however there were none of them struck the camp. So we were off er after that we were off and landed down in erm Bishop's Wharf er in the woods there and we, the next morning we were off down to Gosport and we were embarked on the ships there and er landed in Normandy at the beach it was. And er then we were led through into the assembly area. And it was quite quiet for a little bit because most of them had established themselves and we were waiting for a breakout and er we didn't get on the move again until the they went through the after it had been. Er we went through just after it, the rest of the troops had gone through, we followed them on. And then we were held up at a place because some of our tanks e e the seventy ninth armoured division was er holding all the special tanks er which were flamethrowers and flails and all these sort of things. Er and of course they had to use these crocodiles er down the coast er where the Germans were holding out er at and Dunkirk you see. Er and although they'd got, they couldn't get the towns although they had . And also they sent some of them away down to the u the n the army that was coming from the south. Er I can't remember I wasn't with them but we, we were in a spot and erm some of the tanks were away down there and some were up here and we, the next move we went to . And And all this time you were recovering and repairing? Yes. Recovering and repairing, aye. Well mainly recovering, taking them into workshops. Many of them were er sometimes we, you co got into a minefield and you couldn't, you gave it up you know because er by that time I think there would be plenty replacements coming on the market. But some of the early days, they, we, we gathered them into a park which er the w they were cannibalized. Instead of sending back to Britain for a, a part, they took it off an old tank you see, and on that had been part was still all right you see, but the tank was er useless but there would maybe be a bit of the track alright, so we cannibalized them. And they were put onto it. And then we went right through Belgium and Holland, we were stuck in Holland for er in luckily enough for the winter. In er the last year before we broke through. And then it was erm erm which was er battered about a bit but we were preparing for the, the next move you see. Then after they crossed the Rhine, we moved away up to the north Holland about . Which was on the German border. But by that time er we weren't there very long and the war finished and I was there in for a year after that in, in er Germany. Up near the . So that was er and then I came back here I was demobbed and came back to, I was er the highest rank I had was corporal you know, in the acting corporal actually. Er in er when we were in Germany. Now er we, I came back here then and of course we had, the, the workshop had to be brought back to normal again to deal with the cars. Er and the, we had, had a lot of, during the war, we did a lot of general engineering, we had made er what they called iron shearing machines. Cutting the iron by hand. And er it actually went back to my grandfather's day when he always wanted to get one of these machines and er he couldn't afford it. But he got a pattern made and had the base of the machine made at a local foundry and he made all the leverage parts and got the, he got the blades made in Sheffield or somewhere and er he made one for himself. And he called it the well he was asked to make one for other blacksmiths. And we s we had kept on making this, maybe we, some years we would sell about ten of them. This had went on and on and there was practically every blacksmith's shop in Scotland would have one of these machines made by us. And they called it the number one. And er I think there were some of them still in use about fifty years after they were made. They'll be still in probably in use today. But at the beginning of the war, when things were very doubtful, and we didn't know whether the army would commandeer all our buildings or what, and we started to make bench models of this er iron shearing machine. And Can you describe really what i what an iron shearing machine does? Well it's like a big lever and it has a, at the bottom it has a bar which the very high tensile steel is fixed into. And, and the b and the bar on the bottom as well holding the th no the base of the thing holds the other bit of the blade. Mm. And as you pull it down, it's the leverage that cuts the, the steel. It er it'll cut mild It's a huge knife really. It's like a huge knife aha. Yeah. Just the same, you've seen them with paper cutters you know. it's the same principle. Like a guillotine type of thing. But er we made them er, of course the le it's the leverage that does the cutting you see. Because you get er great leverage on this thing and it er you're cutting mild steel bars you see. And er we, we did erm we, we started making er bench models because we found quite a lot of these had been made in Germany. The there, a lot had, we had never made the small ones before. But we st started making them and er we made thousands during the war and of course part of the, the lower part of the garage was used for making these. And er then we after the war was finished, we continued making them for several years, but we had to transfer it to another factory. And it was a chancy business, sometimes we were very busy, sometimes we, we could er we could diversify and making some other machines like we, we did some er rotary punching machines which were instead of drilling a hole, you could punch it you see. And er we did this er in this little factory at Netherdale. But there was periods that y your men you, you hadn't enough to occupy fully occupy the men. And we got a firm in Glasgow who had to move. They made bakery machinery, and they came er and took our factory over. And we, we concentrated on the motor trade after that. We, we kept on er making or doing repairs for the Ministry of Works for about ooh seven or eight years after the war finished, which kept a lot of men working in Galashiels when we, you know, when they weren't very sure if they could come back to their old jobs . But we kept this on for quite a number of years. And we had an inspector from the, the office from the home department here who er e had his office down there, and we did all this, they were for er the Ministry of Works. And they, they did erm vehicles for the Navy, the Army, the Air Force and the Forestry Commission, any government thing that was . And er until it became the time when the thing got smaller and smaller and we finally had to do away with that place. But it lasted for a good seven or eight years after the war was finished. And provided work for quite a lot of men. How And then of course the other garage in the middle of the town, we got back to normal, repairs and er And how h h had l had l life changed between er the nineteen thirties and the nineteen forties? By the time you got back. Oh very much. Very much er so although wages at the end of the war weren't so big you know even then er Can you remember what sort of five pound would be a, a, a wage you know, five, ten, five somewhere between five pound and er six pound I would think. As opposed to maybe three and And, and they gradually went up. three pounds before the war? Yes probably three pounds before the . Now I was one who saved a lot myself, and we had some very good holidays. And one of the last holidays I took, and I was on my own, I went to the United States for, and Canada for er the, the six weeks I think it was or eight weeks. And er that was a very interesting period because it was nineteen thirty nine and of course the, what the, my impressions of America were quite different when you got there, from er what er their er impressions of the world situation were. Where even going on the boat, we went from Glasgow from Quay in one of the Line boats and erm it cost erm the cheapest fares were twenty seven pounds ten return. The, the fare for er that I went was thirty two pounds ten. And that was er I didn't come back with an Line boat, I came back with a erm Canadian Pacific Boat. Because I changed out there, but we had to pay about five pounds just to change from one line to the other. But er we went from erm Quay, we did stay at Belfast for a about erm just er a few hours, picked up the Belfast passengers, they, they, we didn't dock there,we they came on by tender. Then you had about ten days at sea and you had oh three big meals a day included all in this. And erm dances and everything you know,it was really a, a luxury the crossing. Although it was very rough at first, but I got used with it even when the seasickness caught me up going round the top of the highland, but once he was away from that and er I wasn't a drinker in these days but some old man says to me, er before you go to a meal, he says, take a drop of brandy. I, I says, oh, I says, I hate brandy, I says, I never could. And I did and you know, I was never seasick after that. And I went er in the boat coming back er from Canada was far worse as the one going acro but we went to Boston and we stayed out in the harbour there and then we sailed down the coast into New York, which was a great sight. And of course the, the main object of going there was to see the World Fair that was on that year. And er it was interesting to the point of view of their attitude to Britain then and er you know they were isolationists of course, you see. And er of course er their newspapers told an awful lot that ours didn't tell you see . And their impression er of Germany well you can imagine a big country like America, there's quite a lot of them Germans and the, the German angle was er played up as well you see. And of course er they knew that there was gonna be a war whereas we put it out of our mind, we thought, well we'll be prepared but it'll never come. You know, and that's our sot of attitude. But they knew of course it'll happen. Mhm. If it doesn't happen this year it'll happen next spring you see, and of course er one lady who had been with her aunty er over in the Germany, she says when they went into, she knew they were accumulating theirs, she had some friends in Germany and of course they, she said they were hoarding up just at the borders of Poland I think it would be then. And er she, we had some very interesting insights you know into the, just from various people, what the situation was. And then of course er when I got to New York we were quite friendly with all the people on the boat you know that made great friends with some of them and er I had two or three places to go, I had spent a few days at the World Fair and then I flew down to Washington and er then I came back again. Er then I went on to Buffalo and Niagara falls and crossed over to Canada which I had a few friends there. And erm stayed in Ottawa and Toronto. And er Montreal. And then sailed from Montreal, I was going to go back my, it was my intention to go back to New York, but I changed my mind at Montreal and sailed down the St Lawrence from Montreal, back to Glasgow. Well we'd, the, the trip back we didn't go into Quay, we stayed off the tail at the back and we came ashore. and it was a magnificent sail up the Clyde. Everybody was impressed, it was a glorious day like this you know so the Clyde looks so beautiful when you see it in the, in, in a, in weather like this you know. S and er two or three friends, oh I, I had been on a number of cruises before that, to Germany, to Norway and Sweden, to Denmark. I had been on all the northern capitals. And I had been once in a, a cruise liner to the Canary Islands and Madeira in nineteen thirty five. And er some of these ships, this one was the Empress of Australia. They had been old German hulks you know ta brought over to this country after the First World War as part of the reparations and they had been finished off in Liverpool and Glasgow somewhere. And er they were, a lot of them were sunk of course in the Second World War. One of the finest ones I was ever on, which we enjoyed, it wasn't a new ship by any means, but it was the Lancastrian Mm. and it was sunk at Dunkirk. Mhm. Mhm. and er these are things you never forget you know. I was once going to go on a trip, my mate and I we go a trip to er a train cruise down from er down through Italy and of course Mm. here the Ethio Ethiopian experiment was Oh. the thing you know with the, the Italians. Of course that was cancelled. And he cancelled his er trip but I'd I booked up for one to go to Norway Mhm. and at that time so So bringing you back to after the war, er how did the business continue er then or for, from that time forward? Well we had er the business was quite good er we had er we could do, of course at the end of the war, we could have done with an awful lot more cars, but we couldn't get them. I was just remarking the other day, I think I brought one of the first Land Rovers to the borders from Edinburgh. And I can always remember it was in the middle of winter and put on the, the four that bit circular bit put it into the four wheel drive and it came up there wonderful and the, yet er going in we were and the other car was swaying all over the place. But in, in the impression was that we'd a Land Rover then it's funny. Er we could have done with cars, he says, what are they bringing out this silly thing when we could have done with more cars you know. And who will we ever sell it to? And of course Mr our salesman er he took it up to that big estate and er Mr had got too old to go up to the shooting on the horse you know. And of course er w wondered if this Land Rover would go up there with the four wheel drive. So Mr went up and er he went a way up the hill, places that never a car or anything like that had been before because there were gullies and everything and he could have sank in the middle of a gully or something. However he, he must of chosen the right place to go and er he went right up onto the hill and Mr got his shooting er and he bought the thing on the spot. I don't know if it's the sa I don't think it's the same one they have today but it was the first Land Rover that I can ever remember coming to the borders. And then we took on every farmer got one after that. But it did at the time appear rather a, the last thing The last thing that anybody would want. was anybody thinking on you know,to have er cars you know. However it was a winner. And er we went on er for a few ye at, at that time we had agencies for Jaguar, Rover, M G, er Riley, Wolsley, erm Humber. We had all these er and Austin of course and Morris, we had all these agencies at the end of the war, and yet we couldn't get enough cars. But er however things went on and er we, we've had very bad years some years when the we, stuck too much I think to some of the Morris of course er they had their troubles of course and, and then eventually we, it was funny we were the only two people in the whole of Britain who h ho held the agencies for Austin and Morris together and we were at times we were thinking we must lose one of them. And er we never lost them, they joined together eventually and we that's all the position. And er we, we didn't do an awful lot on commercial later on, we gave up that er thing we, we mostly concentrated on the private cars. Going back to your trip in America But going, yes. Mhm. Now one of the things that was on the you know there was the great Radio City Music Hall. And er oh glamorous shows they had on there. And they had a what they called the twenty four girls dancing you know, and also they, they had the, a film in the show which probably I think it was a Bing Crosby film that was on. V very good show. But another one, they had in another cinema across off it was just off Broadway, the Roxy I think it was, and they had Goodbye Mr Chips. That was with Robert Donat. And you know I went into that film it was just being launched in America, and there was a sort of prologue to the film and er I didn't know whether to, to become terribly angry or, or just about cry because the prologue was as if Britain was a sinking ship you know, this was the last we would see of this great thing and they made the most of it you know, like er i the g the film was the old private schools you know the old w well the public schools in England. And er this was a thing that would die out you know. They always had in America that sort of er something er that against colonialism you see. Although there were more colonialism in, in America than than we were in well are now anyway but er in, in a way that was the sort of impression. And that gave me a terrible feeling, I just didn't know what to, whether to you know, you was sad and yet you felt wild at them putting it that way. And yet they were right of course, they were right enough it, it never came again completely as it,noth nothing stay the same. But er some of the exhibitions at the great er World Fair were really, there were some splendid things, although the main er theme of the thing wasn't so grandio well it was grandiose in a way but just too much so. It was the commercialism that struck me. The railways of America, the different l er railways, they had a huge pavilion well a huge er arena open air, with a huge stage and it was the presentation of the history of the railway engine Oops. Sorry about that. Rocket and so forth. Something similar and er they came up to the, the great Pacific engines that came on and they, two of them came down in front of the stage, two of them were just a little bit higher up, and on the stage itself, there were scenes done like the hall in the Grand Central Station, New York and er they were, it was either the Ink Spots or some of these dancers that gave a performance, and it was so well put on that you couldn't help being impressed by Mm. them you know. And then they had that great Aquatade Aquacade in another place. It was er you paid to get into it, but this railway show was all free. And of course there was er with engines from all the different countries including the, the Flying Scotsman and, and different German trains and, and Italian trains and so on. And then they, the one where Johnny Weismuller was, it was a lake in front of a great arena which they did a lot of you know, swimming about in the lake and the different formations. And they, then the other ones er there was one with General Motors and it was a, a huge thing, you were ten, it was a huge building, modern building but you just couldn't tell what it was from the outside. But you went on to a nameless belt of chairs and it took you it was Highways and Horizons they called it. And you went on to these chairs and you went through a, a scenic part which showed you the roads of the future. Now they're what we have today, the motorways you know. Mm. But it, it was so varied that you went through the, the cities and the highland scenes where they went through the highlands and in the country and then you ended up with coming on to a crossroads in a modern, a futuristic city, where if you look down you, the pavements were elevated and you walked down to where all the models of General Motors were displayed as if they were crossing roads. And er I thought it was, what a money it must have cost to put that one commercial firm doing that. Mm. And Ford was the same, you could have a run round in a, up and down you know in a sort of, in any of the latest models and oh there were some great commercial er pavilions in the, in the place really. The British one wasn't too bad either in the New York World Fair. Could you tell me now Mr as to some of your experiences as a town councillor please? Well I, I was sitting in my house one night on the, I think it would be er nineteen fifty four, and a deputation came up from the ward committee to see me and wondered if I would join the council. I hadn't thought about it before then, and I said well I would need a day or two to think about it. So they said they would come back the next week and see what I thought. So I decided to go on to the council. At the time er I did various things, I was in the I wh could you, sorry to interrupt you, could you could you tell me what year this was Mr ? Nineteen fifty four it would be I think. Right. And er You were in the opera company I, I had been er just in the chorus of the opera company and er you know,various the church choir and things like that I was in. But er of course I gave up that and went er when I went on to the council. I, er first of all I was a kind of shy wee laddie as it were on the council. Because at that time the council was er men very much older than me and er very few young people on it really. How did you come, how was the election managed then? Well they were, the ward committee had been seeking for a, a candidate, but I had no opposition at that time at all. I was the only one who stood. In that second ward. Which was a ward which I would say it was built about the ninet the eighteen seventies. And er a lot of the people, the families had grown up and the housing was in a poor state. But the old people preferred to remain there instead of moving to properties which might be a bit far away for them. Now er when I w went on the council,o of course I was first put on the parks and recreation committee. The one that I would really like to have got onto was the, the building h the hous housing committee. Which er I did eventually get on to and was a convenor for quite a number of years. And then I got on to the, I was convenor of the housing allocation committee for very many years. I served under five different provosts. Whom er the last one that I can r the last who was alive died just about a fortnight ago. It was Colin . The first one I was on was, was under John . I was under er Lindsey Provost Lindsey . Provost Archie , Provost Colin and Provost , William . Er now William of course was on more than one term at the end. And I think I, I would just needed to say the word and I could have been Provost myself but I didn't really feel that I would be able to control the council, I think that was my impression at this. Although I believe I would. But er later on when the council er after the new set up came on, I didn't s join the new set up, like the region a and the, the district councils. I, I didn't I came off the council at that time and er I became the president of the gathering. It was a three year appointment. I was the first president of the gathering. Now the duties I had to do there was to take the place of what the Provost of the town did before you see. And er introduce the candidates to the public you know, over the balcony when they're elected. And take part in all the ceremonies. But there isn't now a Ga a provost in Gala? No it's a district provost now. Provost is for the district. You see now if anything happened er it could be a provost who'd the district who hasn't anything to do with the Galashiels you see, the next one in every probability. Now er we had, I had followed the gathering well since it was instituted in nineteen thirty. And had known, took, took part in every one, right up I'd never been away out of the town in the time the was on. All through these years took part in every one for the last fifty years. And er in some way or other you know, not always in the same position but I'd always er had something to do with it. Going back to your erm er council experience, erm what er you said that you were first put on the parks and recreation department. Erm what sort of duties did you have to deal with in that? Well we had the parks to look after, we had the baths, the public baths and the playing fields to er they were administered through a parks superintendent. The, we did er our baths were dating from the nineteen fourteen period and they were getting rather old the, the, the boiler wasn't too good and we were afraid that it might burst at some time. We did erm get estimates for, to change the system. Of course when the baths were made there were ladies days and gents days, mixed bathing was considered not the thing in these days, but it did come in in the twenty or the, or the late twenties. And of course the, with the boxes being all round the side, the dressing boxes, this was outmoded, we needed a building at the side, which there was sufficient room to build something at the side because we had a park at the side of it then. And er we had a plan for to build a building with er dressing accommodation and er this was gonna cost seven thousand pound when we couldn't face it, we thought that there were far more important things to deal with than that when we had housing, we had just had a housing report which said that two thousand houses in the town were not up to the modern standard. And that meant in many cases, that the toilets were out in the garden and one toilet was serving about four houses. And that was the traditional sort of way in Galashiels, it was rather more like the rural areas than what the cities of Edinburgh and Glasgow are, the toilets were just outside where the old dry toilets had been. And er they didn't spend the money when the sewage scheme was put into the town, the, the landlords didn't spend the money on bui rebuilding bits of the houses. For some reason or other, the money would be scarce at the time. It, it came or it or it would be one of the depressions that the town has suffered from many times during the last fifty or sixty years. Mhm. Well we began to tackle the housing problem because this was a very big problem. And the result was of course that we couldn't build the centre of the town. We would have liked to rebuild it but then we had to find places for the people to go and being a narrow valley it, most of the housing was put at the end of the town. And er some of the schemes have been criticized but it was a blessing in a way that we got them done when we did and er we were able to house a lot of people out there and release ground in the centre of the town to be redeveloped and er brought up to modern standards. Mhm. And er there was a stage when we came to the, where we really decided we'd have to earmark different streets, how far we were gonna go in the centre of the town, because people were beginning to get grants for altering houses, and then in another five years time the council, the council were having to buy back these houses to redevelop the area. So there was a stage where we did say, this scheme is going so far and anybody that buys a house out with that area, they're free to apply for grants. But if they, we will, we will not allow them within this area which we intend to demolish and rebuild. Mhm. And so it went on and the town today has er practically been either reconstructed, the centre has been reconstructed or the older buildings have been brought up to modern standards. Er there, there'll be a very small number of houses now which are substandard, compared with what there was in nineteen fifty four when I first went on the council. And er of course on the coun town council I was also er on the county council because the proportional representation of the area Galashiels held the whole, fifteen councillors were on the county council. And er there was only one who couldn't take part and he was in the fire brigade and couldn't take part because they were er his employers. So er when I was, I was on the county council I was on the welfare committee and er in later years I was on the planning committee. Mhm. But er the welfare one was my er secret love as it were it was . Because er I knew the area very well, I was er we had two committees which were composed of two counties, we had the Priory Committee th that was a home at Selkirk, a children's home, and we had in cooperation with Berwickshire, Berwickshire and Selkirkshire were the owners of the Priory children's home. And I was chairman of it for about six years or so before the council broke up. We also had another one which was er which had been a poorhouse, turned into an old folks home and it was er Peebleshire and Selkirkshire. It had been at one time, going back over a hundred and fifty years, it had been what they called a combination poorhouse. And Galashiels being placed where it was on the between four counties,th you had Berwickshire, Peebleshire, Roxburghshire and Selkirkshire all having a part. But Roxburghshire and Berwickshire came out of it and it was a Peebleshire and Selkirkshire home. And er it was er we had to develop it from a poorhouse into an old folks' home. Which took a very long time. We, we tackled it without putting a great lot on the rates, we were a, we were able to tackle it year by year by altering some of the rooms. Adding er dining rooms and er sitting rooms for the old folk, and er also trying to break up the wards into s smaller units. But er this place er was called View and it's now been er vacated and a new home has been built at the in the Park. And it's And what was it what were these homes for Mr ? Well er old folk who couldn't look after themselves. But originally I can remember that View in the days of the, when it was a poorhouse, and I visited with my mother who used to visit a woman up there. And it was a very bare place then, wooden seats and wooden tables and long trestle tables and er tha that's, I have very faint memories of it . But when we took it over the, one of the first things we did was to redesign the kitchen because the soup was made in these great boiler and it was probably heated up every day of the week and can imagine what it would be like being in prison. . However that was all changed and er that was the first thing we changed and erm then we erm, during the period we, the staff were changed, Mr and Mrs who are in charge of now, they came as a young couple to View and er I think with their coming, they had different ideas and the place did seem to change. That's, this, are we talking about the, the late fifties? Or later on? Yes. Er the late fifties early sixties I should say, yes. They just, the early sixties I would say probably sixty two or sixty three when they, they came I think. And er of course we took away all the iron beds, put wooden beds, we put little wardrobes in the rooms and these thi tackling it bit by bit each year you see. Not without throwing a great lot onto the rates because the rates were just Selkirkshire, and Peebleshire had to keep it up then and er we didn't er get grants for it in these days. And er so Peebles had their separate homes, we also had a separate one at Side and then we also built the, the one at er Lodge which is another part of the Park. These were er built in between the th that long period that I was on the council. Er I was chairman of that committee as well, View when, when, during quite a long period, until the whole system was changed to the council system like and went onto er and er there was one of our, our er officer who was in charge of welfare was a Mr who had a great knowledge of both Selkirk and Galashiels and the country and er he was known by everybody. And a very great man he was and he, before he ret he had died, he didn't reach retirement, he died before he retired which, and we missed him very much indeed. And er I didn't have a lot to do with roads or anything like that or education, it was mainly welfare that was my, the, the Now what shall I do with you this morning? She had her blood test a few weeks ago. Ooh that's right yes, cos we got We Trosser wasn't working and we're going to do some Terbinefeine and provided the blood tests were okay. I remember. make sure we're all behaving ourselves and there's no evidence of anaemia, infection, vitamin deficiency, inflammation, anything else. And you've got perfect liver function tests which is what we thought you'd have all So the thing to do is to now get you on Terbinefeine Yeah? Yeah. Okay? Mhm. For your grotty nails. Now you're f fourteen give or take a week or two aren't you? Mm. Mhm. So what we need to do is to check the dose. Two one six. This is getting to be quite widely used nowadays, especially from the skin specialists,. and we're getting er more Now then we need to work out what the dose is. that's the wrong one. that's the cream, don't want to look at that. One a day for two to six weeks in the feet, two to four weeks in the body. Three months in fungal nail infe Now which bit is it I can't It's the nails isn't it? It's nails. Mm. Nails,So six weeks to three months in fungal nail infections. So probably the sensible thing to do is to give you six weeks worth er one a day,si twenty eight,y g give you eight weeks worth and then see how you are at the end of two months continuous treatment. Okay. See what happens. Now one of the problems of course is nails grow very slowly, and you can't clear the nail until the nail has actually grown out fully. Ah so we will see See at the end of three months treatment they'll s They won't look enormously different. But then they should carry on getting better on their own. Ooh good. So if I give you fifty six and then we'll see. Now obviously if you get problems on them, tummy ache, headaches, muscle aching, rashes, anything odd, let us know straight away cos this still a relatively new drug and we've got to report all problems on relatively new drugs. Relatively new drugs are st are are new as far as that were concern for up to three years, which is a real menace. We send yellow cards on all sorts of Ter-bin-a-fiene It's on a day, I'll give you fifty six. So we'll se how you are. If it looks like there's been very little response then we'll probably keep you going for yet another month after that. Mm. Er provided everything's okay. But we don't need to do any blood tests if you're fine, you'll be delighted to hear, having checked in the first place . Any questions? No. No? Okay. you're not on any pills and tablets are you? Good. Well she's supposed to take Melkrom but she doesn't take them. Taking? Melkrom. She has this allergy to cow's milk and what have you. She's supposed to take that when she's Ooh, what's Melkrom Capsules that she had for years . Mm. But she doesn't take them any But It's probably an o One of these old fashioned trade names. Oh. So let's have a look . She's supposed to take them half an hour before she has any to eat. Oh there's a lot of funny trade names that Oh it's here, no Yes it is Melkrom two oh eight. Let's have a look what Melkrom really is. What by mouth? Ooh. For the last ten years you shouldn't have been taking it. No, it's Serumchromoglycate with it What it What's it Now we know We know all about that cos we a lot of it in aspirin and problems with noses and things like that, but er I wasn't aware that it was actually used by mouth for this. Well, yeah. But if you're not taking it and you're okay you probably don't need it. But I'd say I mean if you are taking it it won't interfere with it. That's the important That's alright yeah. thing. Oh well I've learned something there . Er you were going to make some enquiries about erm Oh er T B er B C G. Yes I have spoken to Mrs who is the er er the woman involved and what she has said is this, the We can't directly we can't directly get hold of it, they won't send it out into the community. But if we Mm. if I if I let her know who're the people I who are the people involved who had it. And what school they are at, they will do everything to everything required through the school health service. The lot. Well that's fine for Elizabeth but Catherine's sort of half left school, if she hasn't she's waiting for her G C S Es and she's not sure whether she's got to go back or what she's doing. Ah. Right, well in that case I'll get that to Mrs then in that on on her. Well I can let you know more at the end of week actually, what she's doing, Okay well that'd that'll be better. I mean cos we moved That'll be better half way through do we haven't got a clue what the poor girl's doing at the moment. Oh right, so let me know at the end of the week. So it's Elizabeth and Cath Is Catherine with a K or a C C Catherine with a K. They're both at All Saints at present but whether she goes back or not is All Saints in Catholic , yeah. All Saints R C comprehensive. I keep hearing good reports about that. It's a very good school. school Mm. Er so if you let me know about Catherine. Er now unfortunately I'm away next week, so if if the message doesn't get to me before I've gone, it'll be the week after that I then get back to Mrs . Mm. In fact it's going to be done through a school anyway, it's not desperately relevant No cos it wer No it's just the fact she wants to go to a veterinary nurse you see, I wanted t them Don't want her be in contact with too many animals in case they have s don't wanna get . Wel , yes I mean T B in animals is actually very very rare, cos of course all the cow the cows are tested anyway. Mm. And the cow testing programme in I think is still very very thorough. Er human testing and immunizations is still going gone in this are and I hope it won't ever stop. They've got no intention of stopping it at Mm. the health authority. And I sit on the immunization su subcommittee anyway, so they better not dare. They won't they won't dare. But I'll I'll make enquiries, and if it looks like she has gone out I will have to get in and we I'm sure we can twist an arm. I'm in the right place to twist an arm. That's the important thing . But we can certainly get er you done Elizabeth at School. But if you get back to me about Catherine and we'll sort things out . Yes okay, we'll Is that okay? Yes. And I will put B C G. And that'll remind me . slip through the net so far but they've got to be done. Yes, you'll get done, don't worry. You'll Right. get done. No escape. Right thanks very much. Okay. Feel like I've done a shift already. I know. We haven't been away. It's the time of year where you're starting to think I wonder if we'll be nearly finished. I'm yawning already! I know. I dunno what I'll be like at seven o'clock tonight. Mm. I don't do anything in the morning you know. Tell me when there's a at lunchtime. Yeah. I only did about an hour's work, that's all I did. Some of them I did. What shall I do now? I know. Should I get ready? Should I take the, take the dog I know. out or It all depends really Am I to take the dog, the dog was left at mam's because I'm gonna be out over Yeah. six o'clock and that when I would normally walk in. I could nay of told the Yes. Well I'm gonna have to erm phone Tony and he in, he might be going home. And then come and pi pick me up. Yes. Probably better if I just stay at work and come and pick me up. Tt! Oh ! It's stupid! Come and have a cup of coffee and Tony can pick you up and all. Geoff dropped the radio in the bath and put a hole in it? Who? Put a bath, a hole in the radiator? No. In the bathroom? In the bath. In that bath? We need a new bathroom suite. So now you can't have a bath? I've a gotta bung stuff . Come across my number? Well I can have one every sort of, but I just get into the bath just after the water is slipping out. And he's pulling the sink Oh no! off the wall to do summat and just re-cement or something so I've gotta wash my toothbrush, and tooth and wash my face in the kitchen sink. How are you getting home?in there alright? I'm gonna have to get Tony to come and pick us up. Like th are you gonna stay on another day or what are you doing? Are you coming in with me and in the library or whatever? Oh no! Being dropped at half past eight in the morning Yeah. till two o'clock? Well I've got the flat there Oh yeah. and that wait. Mm. Oh I can't, I can't work in the morning though. I worked in my room. I wanted to go, go to the library but I thought I'd start in my room so You know if I came in to see Kim, your room, we'd never get anything done. Yeah that's it. And then once Helen and that had woken up that was about half eleven she woke up and then it like, oh,our provisions and then we started talking and everything else together like Do you work from half eight till half eleven? Well, she . I didn't, I work, I started at half nine and I finished at half ten and I went to you know. I started about five to eleven, and I finished at twelve. Then I had to get ready to go to the bank. To get the So is Tony gonna be staying awake until the time that you finish there? Well I was saying to Alison, the only thing I can do is when I phone him he's gonna come. Go this morning and then come straight here. Oh! More than likely. I know. I know. Maybe she'll stay at work and come and pick me up. So either way one of you's gonna be hanging around. I mean, either you've gotta hang around in the morning, or he's gotta hang around at night. Don't know. Is, is he leaving before then or what? Or you gonna take the car or get the bus? No I'll take the car. I could never get the bus here. Your telling me! Well I know, I mean you This is typical! I know. I know, isn't it? Such a waste of time isn't it? I mean what have we done, we ended up coming all this way . I've got a headache already! Mm. Oh yes! It was brilliant! It was buzzing! Yes, but it was the day Oh yeah. that I had my perm, and you know how it's dead It was sticking up here . and I thought it was just tickling tickly you know and erm it wasn't until I,su I went and sat back in my seat I was watching And been him doing it. You know, I was watching them do other people's and my Aunty Gwendoline was with me and she said it's said that it's . Oh! Erm So what did they if those heal you ? Well they just said that all your stresses would go away which was Did they? the, no. Oh!. I mean, I was like, you know, I was still worried. I was still worried. Still stressed. But erm I felt as though, I felt exactly the same, I felt I'd just been asleep I just had my eyes shut and I felt opening one eye to have a look out and see what people were doing. That's like that is it? So then People were looking at you. and then I was away and he wasn't there any more and I thought, what do I do now? So I opened my eyes and he come rushing over and he said, are you alright? Would you like a glass of water? And I said, no I'm fi you sure? I'll you get you no. Fine. Fine. And then he said well take a seat when you're ready. Started giving me a . So I thought, right you are . I thought, oops! Erm Really? Yeah. Were you Well immobilized? well I won't get it now . Erm, not really. Doesn't she? Come on then. Crikey! And then Oh that's good that like. and whe when I went to get up I was fine. I thought I would, I thought I would fall but I I just walked back to my chair and I was fine. And my aunty Gwendoline said is were you asleep? I said, no! I mean I really just sitting Oh. like this I wasn't the least bit even not tired or anything. She says she says it looked like you were out of it! She said, he looked dead worried when he walked away from you, he kept looking at you. Yeah. You know. Yeah, you were Looked like you were gonna fall off your chair. Yeah.. Ooh! Ooh! Ooh! He's Er behind you! So I said, you know I didn't want to know. But I wanted to know, people dead weird and anyway it turned out, do you believe in ? I think so, yeah. Cos I'm sick of telling people that don't believe in it and I feel a complete Right. turd! So Okay. So what happened? But erm it turns out that's what they were. I really a word, and they had a little chat to us. Mm. Well About what? People About the people who are dead? Oh! Oh! About They weren't trying to get you to and, about the you know,th yeah Yeah. Well I because I'm the one who was da doing that because tha I mean I was . But, he was horri the guy that was doing me didn't know he had a pair of a like off er yeah. He was built a bit like Jack. And he had a white T-shirt, pair of jeans, a beer belly and tattoos up his arms. And he was the one Who's the kind of person with ! Exactly! We went into this room and there was this music playing like on the erm like John Indian music. would play on the Oh no. on erm Like in fantasy Yeah. John's sort of thing. You know water a blue light bulb in the middle of the room and I'm thinking, Oh! Come on! What are letting yourself in for? You know. But it was just I mean, the things that they said honestly weird. They're good aren't they? Did I tell you once that a nurse on erm radiotherapy did my psychometry? Yeah. Did I tell you? Yeah. I remember you said. Well this, did I, didn't I tell you? Yeah. Oh sh I've definitely heard this one. What was that? She was holding my fob watch and she said a few things about this, and about us and about dead people and She was closer to you and things like Yeah. that. Yeah. Well this guy, he went Yeah. Oh! the same person was there with exactly the same message. Cos she said what happened was he said Was she fed up? Dunno. He'd already got the message and met someone else ! It's a him. It's a him. They'll not let, let somebody else have a turn ? Well it was, what happened right, I'll tell you the whole story from the very beginning. But basically, the man that, you know, my father said to me well he said to where's the horses? He says I'm getting horses all the time. And of course my Aunty Annie, Gwenny went and he says is it you? I said, well could be. Well, you know He said just everything that was happening, I kept getting horses. And anyway, he said to me he says is there a man in the spirit world close to you? No! So I just thought of my granddad. And I said, yeah, but I was very sort of non-committal Non-committal. Yeah. and very, well I suppose Yeah. kind of Could be. attitude. Could be. Erm, cos I just thought he was guessing, you know, and he said he says, I didn't see him, he said I only saw him and pointed to this girl over the other side of the room he was standing beside you when you were in the chair. Oh no! He says I'll get her to come over and have a chat with you. And she came over after Did she describe him? Aha. So who was it? My dad's granddad. His name Oh no! and everything. His physique, his erm his physical appearance, his character and why he was there and it's exactly what that Merv said off radiotherapy. Mm mm. Why was he there? There's something I've got to do. I need a bit of a push to do it. But there's something that you want to achieve, there's something you've got to do Got to make a jumper. get on and do it. Qualify this. That is exactly what it's not. Yeah. It's your riding. Well that's what everybody says. Yeah. Or it's having a baby. Well I don't think it is. It's probably getting married. It's getting married, yes . I don't think it is. Well what's your main I thi main ambition in life? I think it's to do my riding exams but, I ca as I said, cos Brenda whose horse I ride up at Bridley I was telling her and I said, why would the spirit world get in such a state About riding exam. about me doing riding exams? He said he said which wo what would happen if you got your riding exam when you qualify nursing? I said well I'll probably choose Yeah. riding. I wouldn't know. He said well really for some reason you ought not to be a nurse. I mean, you know how th if you believe in fate and is, is there any control over it or Yeah. is it all planned out for you and Mm. and this kind of thing, is, is someone trying to steer your care or your, the rest Away from of your life? away from something. Which it would be. Away from something. So I don't know, I mean, I'm very open-minded, I mean Oh yeah. but erm he described a, my mum told her everything about a fall the bump on her head, he knew Oh. just loads of things. Very strange. I found that research book. Doesn't Jane look yellow? What? D'ya think Jane looks a bit yellow? I've probably got reflection off her . I know. See if any of us look,ta talking about yellow. Mm. Mm. So? So it was very good. I dunno if I would go to one now. Well I, I want to go now, to er, erm and just try one of the other ones. Tonight I'm gonna go the open circle. I wish I could go. I, I would go, but I'd be frightened to stay there. Well I am whe So am I. see what happened is, I came over and he says, you know I've told this lady that you saw the man standing beside her and she went she sort of, she described him, apparently he was very tall which Yeah. we knew wasn't my granddad cos my granddad was knee high to a grasshopper, erm straight as a dye in character and physical appearance, er like he had a rod up his back which was one of these expressions, Oh! I see. which apparently he was. Obviously I've never met him. I don't think my dad even met him. Yeah. And then she said erm she said, and I suppose she turned to the other guy, she said, we're not supposed to do clairvoyants, like, laughing, you know. And he says, ah, go on it's the end. Cos the all the was over. And then he actually went into a A trance? well not a trance, it was just so normal. She tho she was doing this right as she spoke Like Whoopi Goldberg in Ghost? No! Oh. Dead normal! She, she was going like, you're me and I'm her Ha. and she was standing, I was sitting like, she was standing, she sort of went can you take a Lesley? I went yeah. She says, not in the spirit world. Can you take a what? Lesley. And I said well, yeah and I've got a cousin Lesley . And then nothing more was said about that. And then she was going there's something you need to do. She was literally having a two-way conversation, although, not in an odd way, not going ooh! Ooh! Ooh! You know? She was just like talking to herself, she's going Yeah. and then she would turn her attention back to me. Mm. Oh! How strange! And described him and She thinks she his name. might be going on Wednesday. And Lyndsey might be able to tell you something. Well I know. Well that's what I'm thinking. I'll go, my sister's going with us and I'll, the following Wednesday I'll tell you what it's like. Right. Right. Okay. Come with us. Then we'll go and see the district nurse on Wednesday, is there anything you want me to say? But it's not real But I don't, what if I don't know things? Then I might spend the rest I know. of my thinking I know. It's just that you won't that hasn't happened yet. Well, if you're that sort of person, I would worry about them you see. Now Yeah. someone said to me, I know not, not like an accident or death or anything, but someone said erm you don't have any sisters or something? I would imagine, in my mind, that something's gonna happen to my sisters for her not to be able to see it. I was just thi I remember when I was young I thought my mum went to a fortune teller and, and I had there like tears running Oh! Oh . And she told us we were gonna move to a house with a green door . And did you? My mum bottled out when we got there. Well Bet your there must be a . the thing, the thing that erm worries me is in case I go over is, that you say You're not gonna have any children. you're gonna have two marriages. Oh yeah. Yeah. That's right, you know. Because someone told Tony's mum that Tony would be married twice and the second marriage would be very happy. But then you'd taken that to be that first woman, that Gill person, Gill Yeah Yeah. somebody. Yeah. But that's it. You will really But if they say to me, I'll be marri I'm just gonna be thinking oh my God! But you will relate it, cos no matter what they say you will relate it. Yeah. will be along after this. Keep the noise down thank you. not here. Right. Moving swiftly along er, the little thing on the timetable you know for the the last session where it says quiz it's not really a quiz. It was at the end of the the module. But what we are gonna do is, is give out your study guides and the areas that we'll be revising. We'll do it now. While you're I don't think I'm even gonna bother revising for this. I'm not. Will it be a multiple choice or a written or a Oh yeah. And do I have to ? I think, I think so. A mixture I suppose. Well I can't be A mixture. bothered. Is it serious? Is it like a Serious ? Well it's for yo for your benefit. It's no one 's but . must have all this studying won't they? Don't worry about it. What do you use to chew in Ooh! This looks a little bit less ? doesn't it? What colour is an orange ? What do what is this last thing you have er according to you? Oh! Oh! Oh! Oh! What? Not like who was that man's enemies and things like that. Like the last one. Name the se dwarfs or what they're called? Yeah. Name the seven dwarfs. And certain parts are The false formastation and things. No! That was stupid that! And I got it wrong. You got it wrong? What was that? Blooming stupid question! It was the way it was phrased. Oh, so expulsion of of sperm. And it was, it was something. And it was ejaculation But I thought it was masturbation. Well I thought it was the forced Yeah. Well, it's funny, I was telling Stephen, my boyfriend, about that, and I was telling him the question and he said Yeah. that. Oh. Well Geoff laughed at me when I told him. He said, er bloody typical! Yeah but don't he said . We want a break now. The stupid old bag hasn't looked at it! I've got a headache. That's June . Determined to sort but she's gone now. No, it's not. That's June . She is, cos I lent her th you know. I know. That's what I was thinking. Well they're not the same are they? No. I had to take Tony to the casualty on Saturday? Why? Got a crack on the side of his head at rugby. And he, he, er and his hearing went. Ah! Ah! And he was feeling a bit back taken. Mm. Is he alright? He's got i he's got a card with I have had a recent head injury. Signs to look for. Ah! Oh! Please report immediately. Who? Tony. Tony. Has he? What happened to him? He got a knock on on Saturday. But I think it was when he was tackling and erm ? got a cra no he didn't black out. And he says, but he got like a crack on the side of his head and his hear Oh! On his head? and his hearing went Any questions about that guide? so I had to take him Was it bad that ? Was it the R V I or the General? No. Was it bad? I'll sho oh I'll show ? Yes. well he's er, he says he's done a big X-ray. Mm. This is your study guide. Work your way through the guide and you're going to answer all the questions on the quiz. As usual, the papers are taken and they're kept in the file for yo reference by your personal tutors. The reason that we're gonna produce biological science quizzes is they're, it's from your feedback evaluations that you don't get enough biological science. Soon put right. Not a lot more I can say to you is there? Oh I know. Yeah. I never said that. believe it or not. There's about sixty percent I might have said that. of the people who are at the end of a said they didn't get enough. We haven't had enough biological science. So that'll teach us to . didn't want the sixty percent. the little areas as well though. You do need to have a basic knowledge of Yeah. biological science to understand Unfortunately you didn't have to do the . Providing you have . Would you agree? Yeah. Anybody dares Yeah. to disagree? No. Right. Very sensible. Cos Jane doesn't wanna be on the . Now the nasty erm half past seven session sorted out. What can, what can we do for another three hours ? I re I think we'll go and I'll think you just go for tea and come back in Yeah ! Four and a half an hour. we've got. Good God! You can have ti be back at half past three. Okay? Is this like coffee time? Or is this like This is a coffee break. You know,. So I need to know what time we'll be finished. We would've been revising had we not been here. Exactly! Oh! I'm going to watch the end of Neighbours anyway. Yeah. I would have seen erm I'm not gonna see it. What am I gonna do! It's very important you know! For my wellbeing isn't it? Set the video. For my wellbeing . Anyway, she's lost the battle Wouldn't that do it? Watch what episode you put on. I know. Do we have any idea what time we'll be finished? Cos I've gotta phone my ? When Carole finishes when Carole finishes in this session I'm gonna go and have a chat with her. Because what we'll have to do is negotiate at the end of the next session, whenever we've finished, cos that's entirely dependent on when we get fed up varies on what When we run out say, I mean, you know, what your response to the session is. But usually it finishes within an hour and a half the next session. Which might Right. well finish at five o'clock. Right. Five o'clock. Right. And then i then it's time for a break again. Now I think we've gotta be careful, if we cut out the breaks, you see Aha. an awful lot of people saying let's work right through you're not affective, you're not learning No. if you No. haven't gone away No. and had No. a break. And I mean, there's, you know, the people who smoke need a boost of nicotine they'll go and get Yeah. one. Like if you wanna get a Coke People who drink Coke need a Yeah . Well we, we'll be off as much as anyone else, but you've gotta Aha. you se Yeah. well I'm gonna be off more than anybody else. when I spoke to Carole and she wasn't happy about it. Caro well Carole is problem, I don't think I've personally Should be bothered with it, yeah. but she's got the biggest problem of all because she's gotta pick us Yeah. the girls up, get them back home and come back. No, she's bringing them in here though isn't So she? if, today she can come in early Right. Okay. if she's sorted that out Cos she's got the last session hasn't she? That's right. Yeah. Ori originally she didn't. Aha. Cos originally I had the last session but we cancelled . Well,, I'm sure you can read that first, I've got my own to talk about. I'm getting . Like everybody else . Ooh sorry! Did I just you? it's alright, I've got another one! I'm gonna have to pop out. Aha. Okay. How's he getting on then? Fine thanks, yeah. Doo doo doo doo, doo doo doo doo . I haven't got mine. Oh I've got mine. Crikey! I've been to see my mentor four times! She did a the one. Yeah? She said I've forgotten it. She's hardly seen it! She hasn't written it! I haven't done my She putting mine through. intermediate on my erm community. Ooh I have. I know. I've got so much to do, other than do that. Ah. I mean I've got a curfew, I've got a curfew at home. And I've got Well I,the exam, then we've got study on Tuesday Yeah. and we're off on Friday, I'm on a half day on Thursday, so I think I should have my day off on Wednesday. On Wednesday. Definitely! And I should be doing half day on Thursday. I mean we should do alright after the exams. Yeah. Oh no! Ah well, that's . Make sure you get something to eat. That's alright then. Get the priorities in order. Are you having something to eat now? I'll have my tea when I get in. Have some fish. I think I'll have Fish. Fish, come on yeah! Fish take it easy ! Easy ! Lemon sole. When are you having fish? Me. For my tea. Why, are you having it when you get in? I'll have to have it when I get in. Ooh! Tony snores all the time. Richard ever snore though? No. Never snores. All the time! Constantly. The only time Richard snores, snores is if he's got a cold and he can't breathe through his nose. Tony snores any time. I do. Whether he's on his back, on his side, on his stomach. How do you know like . Richard doesn't even move Wanna bet? in bed. Oh bliss! Never moves. That must be bliss. You don't even know he's there. Never moves. Whereas I wriggle around and I'm kicking people, and I'm elbowing people! I don't remember staying with you like. No. No. When you sleep with me you don't. I thought you were due back soon. Yes. It's five past. Alright then. We wi Alright? we will come sir. You don't have to. I mean But he's telling you just in case. That's because we didn't want half an hour and he wanted half an a hour. Aye. Oh I see. Right. Shovel them in there! Come on then. I will See you later. See you later. Bye! Bye. Bye. Enjoy your research. Who's she? Pauline . Why did I think her name was Susie? I think that's really odd that someone won't live at someone's after they've lived with them. D'ya know what I mean? What she hasn't live with him? Well, she's stayed with him for like weekends, or weeks. Mm mm. She's doing everything that she's going to. I know, but it's a I think it's the family. Mm. I didn't realize her family didn't know mind. You'd think the brother and sister would. Well, I think they do, but they just pretend. Mm mm. The family likes to pretend that they do. Because it's, it's easier, they don't like to to realize these things. I think it's very romantic. The whole thing . Oh I don't think she's saying that. Yeah I know. But you know about, typical woman. families have sex before marriage. Well a how many people though Alison? Not very many. Someone in my hairdressers were talking about it. Sam's cousin, Debbie went out with him for over six years. Well what if you don't like it when you get married? Exactly! . Yeah. That's right. Your wedding night must be such a let down. And that's on your first night! Would be awful! Woo! Ooh! Ooh! Ooh! Ooh! Painful. Ooh! Hoo! Hoo! Ooh hoo! It's sore! I know. Real,Real sound effects ! Is that on? It's not the same kind of thing though. Well Be like, ooh! Ooh! Ooh! Ooh! Mm. Anyway. But imagine that on your wedding night? Mm. At least your honeymoon can This makes me feel all dead romantic and sexy ! I know. It'll be like It'll be like, don't come near me again! Yeah. Twin beds please. Oh God! So is she quite brainy then? She is isn't she? Yes. She gets really high scores in her exams doesn't she? The kind of thing Denise likes to know about people. I dunno. Well I have to know these things. I know you do dear. I say I'm sure, did she not get the eighty percent in the open book exam? She's got lovely hair! Mm! Got something about her personal appearance as well! She's got nice hair Jan. I think she's got nice hair. Yeah but she does well in her exams so Don't you think these things are important? What that you've got lovely hair? No, that you do well in your exams. No, that you do well in your exams . Denise isn't interested in her hair really. No. She was only saying it as a balance. No. I was gonna ask her where she gets her hair done actually. Well that's right. She's got a bit of money there. She lives down there. By herself? Those with the bay windows? Yeah. Yeah. Tt. Along that row, she's, her dad They're very nice. her mum died of cancer. She lives with Ah! Ah! her dad. Mm. How old is she? And she got a younger sister. Twenty. Oh! Oh!there. I says to her, you bloody well do that then! Can you take the ? Four hour . Beg your pardon? Er, shut up! Don't forget you said this is still . I didn't say that. Yes you are. They will tell you. What? And then we won't know when we go. I'm getting a bit spooked about this exam now. I am. I keep suddenly thinking of the enormity of it. And th the fact that I haven't really revised. At least you, you are in the same place. I keep thi I keep sitting down to it and thinking God! There's so much I haven't done for this exam. As usual, I should have started ages ago. But I found when I looked at my books a week ago, or a fortnight ago, I thought, oh I know this, I know this, but it's not until you get into it that you think shit! I don't know this and I could be learning. A week ago I didn't know what to learn and now there's so many things that I know I want to learn. Mm mm. Well every time, every time we come in and she mentions, have you done this, that Yeah. and I think Can I have one of them things? I know. You. You. What? Fizzy gum balls. Oh. She always does. Get one of them I'll get one It's only funny when Pardon you! Thi a I have to say that she does it all the time and she goes, looks around. Does it . A girl I used to work with at the Beechams did like really big burps. I'd say she ate about anything and like pardon me. She would . My grandma's like that. Horrible! I mean she wo she says pardon me or excuse me, but it's so matter of fact that I'd be I could never burp like that if I tried, you know. She did a big, I went in the kitchen at at work on Friday and Saturday What time, what time have we gotta, do we have to be back? Twenty past. And the, the chef's were squeezing the custard carton and it was going cos it was the last and the Custard? You mean they don't make their own custard? Nah! They don't make anything man. Tt! And they were squeezing it out of the carton and it was making this right farty noise. I'm not kidding, the three of them,thir thirty odd year old one of them is, they were on the Well I've been floor laughing! One was going, the other ha ha ha! The custard's going My dad's forty And I'm thinking three and he still How old? does things Do you not like that though. do you not laugh when a squeezy bottle does it? No. Oh! I think it's so funny ! I mean, it's funny like when you burp because you get, embarrass you like. Oh no, it makes me laugh. And there's loads of people round about me and I just went wurgh! And I'd like to be fined . I hate people that erm when my dad burps, if, if it was a cup he'd go excuse me, but but it's when they go I hate that! I do. Cos I don't. I'll conceal a burp, no matter where I am. Well you don't obviously ! Well that er popping out. someone really. You could tell I didn't know it was coming. You can tell it was but make Geoff makes him burp. Oh no! I don't. Cos he feels he's got a wind so he Oh I can't force myself. Nor can I. Aargh. What was that? Oh. When's Tony coming for you tonight? I said half past seven. If we finish before then I shall be very annoyed! They said eight o'clock, quarter to. Quarter to eight cos they started at quarter to six. I could just sleep. Just feel like I'm not learning anything . I know. But then the thing is, Exactly. so I'm not learning anything and then we're to . What have I done all day? I know what . in the past two days. It's like what I said to Tony last night when I got in I said, I feel I could have achieved more if I'd stayed at home and revised. Yeah! I could of. He said but,yo you wouldn't of. I said well I would of that's the whole point. I would have revised all afternoon. I know. Anne was saying when Anne she was revising I've never seen No that was right. The whole . . Sorry I didn't offer anybody cos No that's alright. Oh. And I, when she's revising she says oh I've just done about change and theories of change. Who? Theories of change. But we started with Fred and only got Have you remembered that? a third of a ye way through it. Change in the N H S. Change, do you know what change she's talking about? Freezing, something when er a liquid is freezing and it changes when it is you know changes in the physical sense of the Yeah. word. That's what they learn about. I said oh that's what I've got then. Cos I'm talking about change in the N H S is all we can put down. Here's Anne. But then it's just how bad it. Oh! I wish we'd just done that . It's so, simplified. So basic, so logic. I mean, what do we need about planning something? We don't need it. I mean, I didn't understand much to be honest anyway. I wasn't listening cos I was writing them down. The thing is, with this I don't think half the people listen to you're meant to know you're meant to, in these exams you're meant to have everything you should know and everything else That's it. I'm sitting writing notes and I'm thinking am I ever gonna look at these again? Cos every time I have an exam it's a exactly the same things. I have got revision cards coming out of my ears! And erm which I'll never look at again at all. We're all looking very sorry for ourselves. Well what relevance is it to me? Is not I know. I'm not gonna be a nurse anyway. And I'm gonna go away next, next weekend aren't I? Tony said I need to do some exercise late at night. Cos I annoy him. Because as soon as I go upstairs I'm wide awake. Mm mm. He says you should go, go jogging or something late at night. I said well if you got us a dog I'd have to take it for a late night walk wouldn't I? Come jogging with me. Do you fancy coming jogging? What? Last thing at night? Yeah. You go first thing in the morning. I know but I can go at night as well. No, what, do you play squash? What like eleven o'clock? I don't, I've never played it but I'd certainly like to but I wanna play again. I play Mm. He says it's very unusual, you never see me like this . Ooh! I quite fancy doing that. We should have done. You know I was thinking today I was thinking today erm there's a horse Sorry. Say that again. there's a horse erm in some of the fields just coming out of Morpeth towards Newcastle and I saw, pardon me as I was on the bus like yesterday coming into Morpeth and this horse just shot out of nowhere and it was really enjoying itself! It was like galloping along ! as if it was racing. Yeah. Yeah! It was just like this ! And then it thing and it came, it was really galloping towards the fence and then, cor! Right up Yeah. to the fence. It stuck a All of a sudden. And I was looking, I was thinking, oh! To be free like that. Mm. And then today when I was passing it was just munching away in the corner, you know. And I was thinking, tt, it must nice, Alison's got a hobby she can just go out and you know, do it to get away Shall I tell you what it is, sometimes from everything. I go back from , I'm driving over to Brenda's and I'm thinking,, and I really am, I'm driving along, you know like wha when you're in the car by yourself and everything's turning over in your head Mm. and go and I tack up the horse and I get on the horse and everything and I don't mean to say Falls away. I'm drifting through the countryside cos No. it might be and I'll go over the level crossing I'll think, ooh that was a bit you know, things like that and then we'll see another horse in the field and Canter goes, ooh ooh it's all so everything Mm. it's, it's, it's on a different level, it really is. And because you could, you could just like ride away and not come back ever. Even when you come back you feel much better. You feel, oh I really enjoyed that. And it's a different kind of enjoyment, but, I mean I've never played squash Do you feel like that when you run? Well, well it must be the same. Or like when I, if I we say maybe, now I can't imagine feeling like that except with horse riding, but I suppose you do, whatever your thing is. That's it. It is. Er I wish I had a hobby or a outside interest. It has to be outside I think. Definitely. Yeah. Outside outside. That's it. I suppose Suppose like the riding. everyone feels like that. I think I would, I think I feel like that everything will still be there while I was riding along. Oh! I have to stop and think about it, but I You know what your natural endorphin would come to the surface and you just start getting the feeling of well-being. Well that's the thing like, it's You come to solutions and conclusions and everything's right with the world. And we'd better go back now. If you twitched a horses lip or ear that happens, I would really like to see if I twitched your ear. And can we get a Well Yeah. Mm. It brings their endorphin to the . Did you see The World According to Garth? No. On Sunday. Well I saw a little bit of it, if I wo I keep wanting to see this film Mm. and I've never actually seen it. If you know what I mean? And erm oh just put them on that table over there. No I don't wanna get back there, I don't wanna go back up to the wards so I'll go that way or that way? That way. That way? Thanks. Yeah. I've forgotten which way I come in. It's easily done. Bye. And erm he's, he's got these papers like with short stories Mm. and the wind blows them away out of his hand, so erm Shit! Oh shit! you're meant to get them in the bin not out of the bin. And th he's picking them all up and this one there's a like a rockwe erm, doberman pinscher standing and these papers between his legs . urgh! Urgh! Like this, and he's saying, Bonkers, now give me that paper! Give me that paper! The dog just leaps on him right,so he's wrestling this dog, and he's screaming and the dog going, growling at him and everything Aha. and then suddenly you hear the dog goes running off and he's bit its ear! So he goes to see his mother who's a nurse at the Aha. school where he lives, cos she's the nurse, like a matron, and er she said Garth! What's this? Was it its ear ? The dog's ear . It's a little triangle of the dog ! Oh no! I mean it was cruel Oh my God! but it was funny cos he just aargh! Like this . Ah ah ah! The dog went off yelping. Bless its little cotton socks. Bet that didn't release its natural endorphin. Ah Ah. We'll have a slow mosey. Mhm. I find, tell you what I find difficult is thinking and learning in that class. Mm. Some of the people aren't conducive to learning. I know. I know. And I try not to get stroppy, I try to be you know, otherwise I'm being a complete crab and not joining in, but Mhm. I've found I have to have a lot of conditions. Everything has to be just so for me to be able to learn. It has to be right. I mean half the time I think I don't remember anything because er er, people are so busy blooming playing around and Mhm. shouting and And I'm too nosey to block things out. and When I was sitting in that corridor there was one of the tutors on the phone, only for a short while and I couldn't even blot him out cos I was too nosey to listen to what he was talking about. I don't think it's deliberate. But I'm No. I'm reading Just curious. I'm aware of it. Naturally curious. I can't revise when I know that Geoff's in. If he is, I go upstairs to be by myself. The telly has to be off. Well you see I have to have the telly very quiet and last night, ah! To I'm sure he's going deaf you know. Mm mm. And I, I keep going down and I'll turn it down, and then I'll go out room and he turns it back up again. It's like living with a cantankerous old man ! It's enough to make you deaf. What? Well the sound quality's not very good. I says, well I can hear it upstairs! He says well you're The trouble is you're just over-sensitive! what you can hear upstairs is going, ooh ooh, ooh ooh! Oh! Ooh ooh! And the music! Yeah. The theme tunes that are on. Oh ! Dear me! I wish it was that. Well I'll go and get two, three. I'll soon get Oh yeah. Yeah. Well that's your fault. I was saying I thought she was lovely! Yeah. Exclusive to Mm mm. Mm mm. Yeah. It's nearly time for Neil. I'm cold now. It's cold in here. The nights are drawing in. Impact and intervention A ball? bodily functions . The Newcastle College of Health Studies Ball . Yeah? Erm, yes. Twenty pound a ticket! That's what it was last time wasn't it? Meal, disco and band. Well, can I tell you the first one we went to we went to get food and there was none left! Well that'll be on the . And there was a lovely spread! But by the time we got there, and there was and there was people there I've never even seen before in my life! I suppose this one's it's cheap. That was, it's always the one beside the Civic Centre one? Yeah. The one you went to when I was ill? It's good like. Yeah. If you can get in. It was me and Clare dancing on the table there. difficult to get in. At least it was just us and we were gonna Well have you seen Helen's video? No. No. Nobody has. Oh! It's brilliant. Have you,can I ask, have you got pink in your hair? Yeah, I've I sprayed it pink for the Rocky Horror and I can't get it out! I was, I keep looking and I'm thinking Is it pink? it's the light. It's the light. It's still a bit pinky. Just a little bit. Was it good? The Rocky Horror? It was brilliant! Eh! It took four shampoos to, to get the bugger out! I thought it was my eyesight. No. No. I love the Rocky Horror Show! Anyway, she's got the erm video right Mm. and there's a bit with Helen and Steve and you know what Helen was like when they was Steve? drunk. Big Steve. And sh Oh! Right. they showed it to, to me. It was her face! And, and Ellen was gonna bring it into college but ca er Helen said don't you dare! So she's, she's Yeah. cut out that bit. That bit. Ellen cut it off. Oh! Oh! Yeah. Cut it? Yeah. So, it was ever so bad apparently ! It was really good. Everyone was on it. Everyone was having a good time. It was really good. Well th maybe I should look at it seeing as I missed it. I can just remember Helen's bum! You were in hospital. That's all I saw all night! Denise. What on? That do at Aye. I just remember her backside wherever I saw always Helen's backside. I think they should have another one. Seeing as I missed it. Yeah. Yeah. And come back with Mark . I spent my whole night following him around! Following him round. And you, and with Steve, Ellen can pick it out. Oh have you? Well you shouldn't have cos we wanted to see I've seen it and, and it was the best the best time I had was . It was good. Right. Am I telling you about this? Yeah. Sorry. Have I made much sense so far? Yeah. Yeah, but I the man Can I the patient looks outside in and carer looks inside out. Inside out. Right. And here's, here's his journey right. G P appointment, outpatient appointment, tests, admission, medical treatment, nursing care,planning and follow-up. And that's the patient from his journey out? That's his journey right? Here, he's looking in how he came, where is it? Route. Ba, ba, ba, ba, ba, ba, ba, ba, ba, ba But is it the round window, the square window, or the arched window? There's one. Da, da, dee dee dee. Right, it says here,quality can only be asse assured ,pa beg your pardon,if both patient's view, he's looking in there. Right. in, and the care-givers view looking out are in agreement . Right. What if they're not? What To a is the one that we're actually doing? Yeah. That's right. To achieve this quality assurance should mean, that when the patient feels his care is not good he should know how he can complain without any worry that he will be penalized, and in the certainty that action will be taken immediately . And that's these things here. There's patient questionnaires, complaints, da da, er ba la visitor inspections, complaints, patient questionnaire, there's a basically all the same kind of thing, or relative survey. Patient questionnaire. So, basically, what they're saying there's all these things that they'll provide at each stage of his journey so that if care isn't right he knows what channels to go through to complain. My criticism of that being is But what if it's not carried out? it's, it's al the quality's not there to start with. How can you He da he won't know what, what quality of care is though. Well er, the patient has his views about what Yeah. he expects, good nursing care But his views aren't really gonna be necessarily good nursing care cos a lot of people wouldn't know No, everybody's individual. And to get, what it says here, to get quality assurance, the patient's views, and the care-giver's views have to be in agreement. What, say you're the care-giver and I'm the Yeah. patient what I think is good nursing care might not be what you think is good nursing care. But what you know is not gonna be the same. It has to be the same for quality assurance. But it's not gonna be the same. But that will Yeah cos you I tell you what I think It says on our research thing say that, say that erm . Say that Er, say yes to that one. I shan't ask anything. But will it tell me the truth? Well, see, for one is she's not erm as bad as that. You know, some patients I could think of seem to have the idea that everything should be done for them in hospital Mm. and that to them is good care if a nurse does everything for them, but it's not. If, you're taking all Yeah. Mm. And when he goes into Plus they also say that a nurse is always busy and they're angels, and they're, that and the other, that they won't complain. Well that's the only way that this can be assessed, is by, so that the patient blah blah la when a patient feels his care is not good he knows he can complain without any worry . But complaining, I mean, if he's gotta complain it means that quality assurance isn't there. But This is only thing if they've got something to complain about. if you were the patient nurse So there's nothing to actually say In a positive sense? Yeah. Yeah. The only thing that So if it says Yeah. erm meaning ha blah blah and action taken . It should also mean that when Mr , that's it, says the nurses were marvellous, the nurses are able to say in all evidence, and with evidence to support their opinion, yes We were crap! we are really doing a pretty good job. That's all it says in a positi from a positive angle. Yeah but A pretty good job. So what do you think ? But like, if you take like like er,le let me, if you were the patient and Lesley was the nurse like, you wouldn't have a clue whether it was er Exactly. good or not, because as long as it was pretty clean. Let's have a look what examples they're using. Well that's what I was trying to say, because all the patient doesn't know what to expect anyway. I mean, the patient wouldn't know whether it was like clean Well these are the criteria leaves for tests and investigations for tests and investigations, for example good facilities, up-to-date working equipment, nice staff, competent qualified staff Well I'm not nice. written and verbal information, appropriate tests, no complications . But not necessarily the procedure itself. If you, if you were the patient you might say it's wrong because erm she doesn't look like she knows what she's doing or there's a mistake or something gets missed. Yeah. You know. But I mean, on that, well I think it's Well I think the whole point of it is erm, the patient's not gonna know that I'm, first of all, not gonna know anything about nurses, Yeah. Because he didn't, he stayed cos they class him as an A person. And he might take a personal dislike to one of nurses. Yeah. They can only evaluate the care that they've had can't they? At the end of their stay. Whether they, they feel, they feel better and whether that's because the nurses have done a good job or not. So ideally, er Nurses can, they can only they can only say evaluate a certain proportion of the erm Yeah. things in question. Well it says for the nurses to is to be able to evaluate. Waiting list monitoring, outpatient department review, observation, visits erm nursing audit, medical audit, care review, qualifications check . Well you see the bit about the waiting You know it's all very list right? Mm. That's one thing here, will get them in and out, but I've spoken to patients who say they don't get the care here and, on the surface it looks a brilliant hospital, it gets them in and out, you know, it does everything, it's got all the facilities but it doesn't give them the care. Mm. I think the biggest bogey is, is where That's right. it says,quality can only be assured if both patient's view and care-giver's view are in agreement cos that's gonna be really hard to achieve isn't it? Yeah. Where's it say that? Make sure I've written it down. Yes, but quality doesn't just co erm, take into account the care that's given, it takes into erm, what equipment you've got on, whether th er, the equipment's used properly. I mean, but that that is what I was pointing out and we have some, say you have somebody qualified to go and visit each patient What the hell's a ? even just to like I feel we're doing the research do you know what I mean? Mhm. Mm. Yeah. I will say that. What about yours Neil? Come on Neily. Hang on, I've lost my, my work. back too soon. That's wishful thinking. Wears my out. I've got my husband's on. What? Socks . Not the same ones as yesterday? No, I've got about five, no I've got about four pairs the same. Two pairs of blue and two pairs of red. You mean your husband's got four pairs? Well Mm. Right. My art Thirteen centre. My Sorry. my article's about raising the standards of health care in the hospitals. It's all the same really. And it, it looks upon nurses feel about their own standard of care and, the article then goes on about Standard they provide? standard they provide for Mm. the patients. And then the it goes on about setting up the single but dynamic standards a setting system it's called, divided into local level groups like a tier system, you get the Managing Director on the top and the ones at the bottom. And they're called quality assurance, or standard setting teams made up of volunteers from the local wards. The main base made up of volunteers from the local wards like nurses and well I mean nurses and auxiliaries like that. But it's bring, it says things about care and assessing that quality care's being met on their ward and the hospital itself and about once every six months to meet up with other hos members of other hospitals in the area and discuss different aspects of raising the standards of care. And the introduction about about care is passed up the three tiers, like a triangular system's Mm. passed up a three tier system. And if the ideas are good then er incorporated into the care, they're incorporated into the hospital's manifesto if you want, if you like. But there's one one fault really it takes approximately fifteen to eighteen months for them to pass anything like that and that could be one Downfall. downfall, one criticism about Yeah, cos this one says it's immediate. Yeah. Well this one takes fifteen to eighteen months and that's to me that's just ridiculous really. And then, it would take another however to implement any changes that they decided upon. Basically they, they just provide the ideas which get passed They provide the er to the top of the ladder That's it. and then And they're the ones in the situation so they get pa they're the ones who are actually on the ward at the bottom and then pass it up. It's like Yeah. being in parliament really, you have to pass everything up. Well the thing is though people at the top don't necessarily see the problems that you see as problems No they don't, no. as being problems do they? That's probably why it takes fifteen to eighteen months to get a a result. To get there. It's not gonna help the patient like, at the time, like, at the time if your patient complains, something will be done. What happens there and then? If your patient complained, like, I dunno Probably be dead by the time Gone out the window! Yeah! What if you've got a loved one? And, and we sort of no yours doesn't necessarily apply to some people to say, they might just think, oh it'll be I know. good idea to Just what you think. Yes, by the time it comes to getting round to your complaint you've moved on. Mm mm. It's unbelievable how many they . So is that it basically? If you want to call an issue but I was on about setting up these committees to assess the standard of care. I've got a bit like that, and says the erm quality assurance systems will have to be different in each health district, with like being variations. But it says, it has identified key elements, and one of those elements is a Director of Quality Assurance should Yeah. be appointed with responsibility for setting up the district-wide programme. She would receive minutes of all meetings and have the right to attend these meetings to provide a quality assurance input. So that's the same And like I must have got the er the review board should be er six six requirements for these groups. Mm mm. They must voluntary to the whole . Right. Erm, there must be more than six people. There must be a meeting once every three or four weeks for one and a half hours. And the meeting should be held in a place where it is possible to work in our situation. And a leader should be appointed. Yeah. Yeah, but even with all those things in their favour it still takes fifteen months? It still takes fifteen to eighteen months to deliver to pass But the leaders are nearly always someone like a Director of Nursing or somebody like that, who has no ward experience But you need somebody higher up on a day to day to be able to pass these bills doesn't it? To be able to pass the , yeah, try to get them to pass it. Right. It cannot be get background. Mhm. Mm. So, the major criticism for that is higher Is up Fifteen up. high. to eighteen months. Lyndsey. Fifteen months minimum. I think I had it once before. What? I just you know, I'm not sure. I know. I think so. Well, when you've got five minutes come and knock 's door . Well as long as you know about yours and then when she does direct the question at you about that particular Shall I tell you what mine's about? Well I've told you what mine's about. Shut up! You're gonna get this too. Mm mm. It's about a two different tools. A tool being? My body is my tool! Whatever you like. One's called the monitor and one's called called the system . There you are. That's all we need to know is it? Right. Well you could even call it a system. Somewhere. Can we go home now? We may as well get cracking with research mightn't we? Well, we're waiting for these lot. Ah! Can we start when the others come back? Sure can. Can we start now? Why have we covered before the others come back ? Then we'll get out five minutes early and we'll see a bit more of Eastenders. I can't afford to wait. I'm gonna have to vote at seven o'clock on Thursday morning. I'm gonna have to vote as well, I dunno who the hell I'm voting for. Me too. I don't. You're gonna contact everyone Why? else. Because Ah! In the erm I haven't, I haven't gotta vote any more In the Nursing Times it tells you the N H S manifestos for each party. Does it? Mhm. Where? Last week. Oh! Mhm. The thing is, I mean we're hardly to getting to grips with other people . But the thing is, there's been that many changes now, so having a bloody Labour government is just gonna be back to square one and into reverse you know, and go back. Oh God! I wan I don't want him as Prime Minister. Oh! Not . You know, I am fed up! Last night Channel one Yeah. election channel two some bloody crap! Channel three, election channel four, election. And that's just on telly. I said turn that Yeah,. rubbish off! I mean you had John Major on one side, Paddy Ashdown on the other, Neil Kinnock on the other. Paddy Ashdown's the only one worth listening to. I mean Neil, Neil Kinnock for God's sake! he's a wanker! I know. Let's not talk about . It's election constantly on the telly. Six o'clock News is extended. Mm. They have they have extended from six o'clock till quarter to seven and then Have you noticed that when there's a general election you have about five minutes of news there's never any di and disasters like thirty five minutes of bloody election coverage! Probably is, but it's not Vote Bean! Why don't they have a big old disaster and see if they feature it on the news Well they wouldn't. It would have two minutes at the end! It makes you wonder what news Well there is to tell you! a runaway train has run straight through And we're gonna need your head. Yeah. Well last night er And there's been an earthquake and everything there's the everybody's dead. Vote Paddy Ashdown. there's been eight miners trapped down in Yorkshire but the election Cos you know what he does? He always says, and we're the party that doesn't quarrel! Bloody hell! What hell what an excuse is that ? And they always say the same things and you think, oh you told us that yesterday. No I'm not voting for him, he's had an affair. That's the only thing he's got going for him. Who's voting for Tory here? I might. Me, no. Anyone else? I'm sorry. I think I will. I think I will and all. Lesley goes by the majority. No! I wo no! No! I'm not going by No ! the No! majority. I mean, could you live with Neil Kinnock Prime Minister? He's a No. pillock! Anyway, John Major's the You mean you could? only English one. Tell you what, I prefer Maggie Thatcher back. Where's er where's Yeah. Paddy Ashdown from like? He's er Irish. From Galway I think he is. He's a Paddy. He is Irish. Ooh! Well I didn't ne it could be Patrick. Well, that's Irish. If Patrick's Irish, it's called Paddy doesn't it? Not necessarily. Well it doesn't! Not much. Tony's dad's called Patrick and he's not Irish. I never said he was, I just said that he's called Paddy. I don't agree. Like a . Called Paddy O' really. It doesn't mean he's not Irish. Paddy O' . Oh! Now Alison I reckon we should all vote for Mr Bean! I would rather vote for Bruce myself. Mr Bean! The greedy party. Who you voting for? Jane, you don't have to go to Ireland to vote do you? Oh right Her laugh! Ah! Com come on there. Everybody's that bad. No I mean, that was so funny how he taking this . I think he's funny, that's why Well I don't think it's as funny really. I mean, I think a lot of people wouldn't do that . Yeah . Are you gonna move back a bit missus? Why? Please. I'll not be able to see the board. I think I'd rather, rather vote for Bruce . Who's he? He sings, I wanna be elected. I don't give a damn really! Is unity possible? Well is it? Bloody hell! What's that for? Ah yes, but I did it like, like that though. Are you revising for that? We did that yesterday? I can't remember writing that. You did. Yeah. I remember writing that. No. Yeah. That's what I said. More pain and more And it began with A? Yes. Did the research and that. Do all You made it up? I think this model's er That's amazing! erm I'm impressed! I know. I'll, I think it'll be on the Well that's all we did. and everything man. See what we'll be doing. So Er so was I, even though I failed them. I have got a bit about it. Communication is one of those things that I'm not I'm not very confident about this one. Oh! I'm not. Well I'm going to work at Guild Hall. I was gonna Oh! Lucky you! I wish I was going to work. I'll have no excuse. I think you worry about, like I'll have to do some work. and hope that they're wrong cos you can't take it all in. Okay so last week we looked at the participatory model of democracy which in essence of Russo's Theory in three ways. First of all, it allows much more room for debate, discussion, dissension, even disobedience in Russo's Theory. a consequence of giving up the assumption that there's at least an easily recognizable general will. So either you say there's no general will or there is something like a general will, but it is not easily recognizable and for either reason you would want to be much more tolerant of the role minorities, either as a way of getting to the truth, or erm as a way of as it were making up the truth as you're going along. So that's the first difference between participatory model and Russo's model there's much more room for debate and consequent toleration of minority. Secondly, it gives up the distinction between sovereign and the executive in the sense that the people are not restricted only to making laws, but they can also get involved in decisions about particular acts of will. So for example, er on Russo's model we saw the people are not consultive on the issue of whether the State should go to war or not, because that's a particular act and must be left to the executive. In the participatory democracy the people would certainly decide that . The third difference was that the participatory model and it is perhaps the most distinctive about it, extends democracy to other institutions of civil society, including the family, the workplace, local governments and so on. Now I discussed three objections to the participatory model last week. The first one is John Stuart Mill's objection which is that we can't leave everything to the people. At some point individuals must administer, you can't have a committee carrying out the committee. You must need some individual point by that committee and the same is true for governments. So it is not possible, not practically possible to leave everything to the people. We'll come back to that objection. The second objection was the problem of agenda setting in a participatory democracy. How is it that the people come to be discussing certain issues rather than other issues? How do those issues get decided and I thought there's no sensible answer. Thirdly there's the old objection of participatory democracy that it simply takes up too much time and this is not a trivial objection, because the thought is not that it's simply time-consuming, but because it's so time-consuming, it's destructive of other things we value so that we value er artistic creation, enjoyment, conversation and so on. These things, there would simply be no time left for erm in political decision making. Okay, so much for last week. This week I want to start by reconsidering that first objection but we can't leave everything to the people. At some point we need administrators to carry out the will of the people. Now the defenders of participatory democracy would consider this as a very weak objection. What they would say is that we have to, perhaps we do have to leave things to the individual, but we should leave as little possible to individuals, as little as practically possible so that we should the people involved in making all the important decisions, particularly the carrying out of them that we have to leave to particular appointed individuals. So erm we can cast this in a different context. We've got really two things in play here, one is the role of individuals who administer and the other is the role of the people, so we have a question of what is the proper role of the people and what is the proper role of the individual administrators. We've seen the answers from participatory democracy as little as possible to the individuals as much as possible to the people. At the other extreme we have something like Plato's system, where the people are given no role at all and everything is left to individual experts, individual administrators, so Plato's system is at one everything is left to the individuals, participatory democracy as little as possible is left to individuals. Somewhere in the middle we have Russo's system where the people make laws but no do nothing else everything else is left to appointed individuals. There's a fourth possibility that we haven't looked at yet and this is a possibility of representative government where the people simply elect lawmakers, the people don't make laws they elect the people to make laws. So in this case the people who carry out the will of the people make the laws on behalf of the people. So representative government gives some role to the will of the people, some role to the individual to individuals, but erm in a way less role to the will of the people than participatory democracy or Russo All the individuals do is elect their governors, so this is the idea that Russo called not democracy but that to of aristocracy. We vote in a group of people who then in this view, Mill's view take laws on our behalf. They also appoint administrators to carry out those laws. So this is a much more familiar model of democracy to us than any of the others that we've seen so far and for Mill, representative democracy was the only way democracy could survive in the modern world. He particularly was concerned about problems of scale as a practical problem, that is it may well be in a small town you could have a direct democracy, a face-to-face community where people can talk to each other and argue with each other and meet on a regular basis, but as soon as you get cities, countries, nations,direct democracy of any sort is erm absurd Well and we have seen one response for people now making Mill that is that his objections are not being finessed by computer technology, they don't want to get back into that type of argument, because this is really not the most important argument against direct democracy. To understand Mill's view or at least to see why Mill makes the argument he does make, er I E not just the argument but other arguments which represent democracy. We have to understand first of all what Mill thinks the proper function of government and in his view governments have two roles. There are two things that governments ought to be doing. Firstly they ought to improve the citizens, both morally and intellectually, so it's the role of the government to make better citizens. Secondly they have to manage the affairs of government well, or rather erm, so they have to manage the affairs of the state. What does this second claim come to what is its state of the affairs of the state well, well we should assume that Mill ultimately utilitarian standard so that erm to manage the state's affairs well is to maximize general happiness. However, it's surprising that in on representative government utilitarianism barely surfaces and that almost no mention at all is made of utility apart from in a very general way. However erm so two things to say about that, I think we can assume will ultimately apply utilitarian standard, but he doesn't make much of it here and he relies on a much more intuitive idea of what manage things well and he assumes that different branches of government will have different standards of success and that we will be able to tell pretty much whether they're doing well or badly. Now this is rather a banal claim I suppose that erm the proper function of government is to manage things well, I mean who would have doubted that, but the other claim that governments, one of the roles of governments is to improve the citizens is more surprising, particularly for a liberal view and there's a more standard liberal position now would be that the moral well-being citizens is not a proper matter of governmental concern. Or they should, the citizens should be er stopped from er attacking each other and so on, but whether the citizens turn out to be morally good or morally bad in other ways in private matters, whether they're morally improving or not, is simply not the business of governments. It is surprising to hear that Mill doesn't hold this view that he thinks that erm the moral health of the citizens is of concern to the government and it actually gives, although he doesn't seem to recognize this, this gives a hostage to fortune to his conservative critics because of course they can say, did say that liberalism was very damaging of er morality of the public and so we need a far more restrictive type of regime than Mill allows us. And anyway I'm going to leave that on one side now because it's more erm a problem to reconciling Mill's views about liberty with his views about a proper government rather than directly about governments, so I'm just going to note that and move on now. Okay well suppose that erm Mill is right that these are the two proper functions of government. Given that he thinks he can demonstrate, easily demonstrate the advantages of representative governments to show why is far better than any alternative. First of all he contrasts representative democracy with what he calls enlightened despotism which is really something like places guardianship. Now Mill concedes that the guardian, the despots might manage the affairs of the state tolerably well that there's no reason of principle why a very enlightened despot couldn't do fairly well, although Mill claims that no despot could do as well as a good democracy. I found it hard to find Mill's arguments for this, although he seems to be, he seems to be arguing the point over several pages, but erm we get pretty much rhetorical claims and evidence and so he wants us to consider those states which have been ruled by despots with those contemporary states which have been democracies England versus Spain say and he thinks it's obvious which type of system we ought to prefer. But he's got no, as far as I can see he's got no convincing argument that democracy will do better, but that doesn't matter because he thinks that the decisive criticism of enlightened despotism is that it won't improve the moral or intellectual well-being of the citizens, but if people are excluded from political decision making, they will have no incentive to educate themselves or morally improve themselves, or he thinks if they do, if a despot does allow for the moral improvement of the citizens, then citizens will no longer accept despotism so that despotism is in a way self-defeating here and if it one of the proper functions of government it can't survive. No morally and intellectually well educated people will be prepared to tolerate despotism rather than democracy. So that's Mill's argument against enlightened despotism. More interesting is his implicit comparison with direct democracy. Now he doesn't actually make the concession I think it's consistent of what he says, that he ought to concede that direct democracy might be better at improving the citizens, because after all the citizens have much more to do on in service of the state but his view is that direct democracy has the opposite failure to guardianship, that while it might be better at improving citizens it's absolutely hopeless in managing the affairs of the state and his reasons for that is that we need experts with experience in order to carry out the affairs of government and although these people ought ultimately to be held responsible to the people, people shouldn't sit in judgment them in every one of their decisions. So here he has erm quite a long discussion in the fact that if you have inexperienced people, they will often make the make a quick initial assessment of a situation which is being and rejected by a more experienced person. So the experienced person will always be able to take the inexperienced person, it's not as simple as that, but if you make the administrators responsible to the people in all their decisions, then you have as Mill says inexperience sitting in judgment on experience, ignorance sitting in judgment on knowledge. So you have to insulate the, the administrators from direct control of the people if you, if the administrators are going to make good decisions. The people just have to trust the administrators at a certain point, rather than trying to er second guess all of their decisions. So a direct democracy will lead to a very inefficient running of the state. Therefore representative democracy presents itself as the best compromise. It can manage the affairs of the state very well and it can improve the citizens. Well how does it do that? Why does representative democracy improve the citizens? Because after all critics will say if representative democracy isn't the best practical realization of democracy but simply a sham, after all remember Russo's comments on England, the people of England think they're free but they're mistaken, they're free once every five years when they elect their rulers. Now Russo then representative democracy isn't a refinement of democracy to make it appropriate for the modern world, but a way of giving away all the merits of democracy. Now Mill accepts that representative democracy can be as bad as Russo supposes it is, but there are aspects of Mill's views which make him sound very much like Russo as well. For Mill it's very important that citizens are educated for their role and although participation on a na national level has to be something that can be restricted only to the few, Mill nevertheless wants active participation of the citizens in other aspects. So for example he's Mill is very keen on the idea of local participation, that everyone should at some point in their lives play a role in local government in some level. Also he speaks very much in favour of jury service that he thinks that everyone is liable to jury service has a number of advantages. One is that it makes people er it gives people experience of participation which is itself an improving matter. It makes people consider issues from an impartial moral point of view. Also it helps one in practice for voting. So jury service he thinks is a terrific way of improving the jurors. He doesn't defend it as the best way of getting the correct decision, he doesn't defend it, or he doesn't solely defend it that way he doesn't defend it either on the idea that people have right to be tried by their peers for example which is the most likely defence now, but he defends jury service on the grounds of the effect it has on the jurors which is quite a novel erm . In fact there's been some discussion of this lately, John Elston has argued that if jurors knew that that's why they were chosen to go on the jury, it would destabilize the princi the practice of it because if you knew you were going on jury just for self-education rather than to get the right results out the other end, then this wouldn't give you any way of motivating yourself properly for the jury. Well, I'm not sure that's correct, but anyway Mill thinks that these ideas local participation of jury service are ways of getting people involved at the highest practical level of participation. So in other words, Mill accepts the arguments of Russo the arguments of the participatory er theorists that participation in government, participation in public affairs is a good thing, people should be encouraged to participate and it has an improving effect. The worry is, is if we allow participation above a certain level, this will lead to gross inefficiencies in a governmental process. So there's a maximum level of participation societies like ours. He thinks this is an question but in small societies may be a much higher level of democratic erm intervention at all levels would be possible, but it's only in modern societies that participation on a very extensive scale becomes absolutely impossible. Okay so this is a rough sketch of the basic outlines, now let's try and fill in a bit more details. One question that we raised a number of times is when people vote in this democracy, what should they be doing? Should they be voting in their own interests, or should be they be voting out of their view of what is right, what is the good? It's normally thought that within the utilitarian tradition people should be required to vote on their interests. Because after all the right decision is to find in terms of general happiness and so you would have thought that voting was the best way of finding out where their general happiness lies. So there'd be something rather odd about people voting out of moral motivation for a utilitarian because they would be voting their estimate of where the general happiness lies, rather than putting their input into the sum from which someone else can calculate where the general happiness lies. So it's normally thought that within the utilitarian tradition, voters are required to vote their interests and then the democratic procedure tells us where the general happiness lies roughly speaking. But Mill doesn't argue this way, Mill argues that erm allowing people to vote their interests is corrupting of them. If people are voting in their interests, why not then sell their votes to the highest bidder? They have no obligation to use it responsibly if their, if they can use their vote selfishly. Rather he thinks that people ought to vote on the basis of what they think is right so he uses an with the jury service at this point. He thinks that justice jurors should put their personal interest to one side. So should voters, it would be rather absurd I think, well Mill thinks, that if jurors were expected to come to a decision on the basis of what they would prefer, would you prefer this person to be sent down or would you prefer them to get off. That's not the question, the question is is it right for this person to be found guilty, is it right for this person to be found innocent? Mill thinks that voting is to be ideally modelled on this er jury service idea so that's another reason why jury service is so important for all citizens. All citizens need a highly concentrated er episode in their lives where all they do is think about what is right in the circumstances and this will give them good practice, good training to being an enlightened voter. Again I'll come back to this point about motivation because it's very important later on. So erm this is Mill's counter-motivation. He also realizes that there are certain threats or problems with democracy. Some of these we've considered before but I'll tell you how Mill feels on them. One of them, this is not the first in the but one of them is that democracy may well throw up unworthy rulers. This is the point erm, well Plato made the point that the people we most want to rule us are probably the ones that are the least likely to want to take on that duty and Ben Williams made the same point the other way round that the people who rise to the top in politics are likely to be the ones that we would least like to have governing us. So I think I made this point before that the people who are right at the top of politics are the ones who are very good at flattery, duplicity, manipulation and so on and these, are these really the qualities we want in our government? So, Mill thinks we need erm Thanks. Mill thinks we need certain safeguards to make sure that unworthy rulers don't present themselves. One thing he says which is erm a current topic is that we should limit the election expenses of any candidate. His thought is that how can we trust anyone who's prepared to pay their own money to get elected? If someone is going to put off a lot of their own money in order to get into parliament, we can, then we can hardly trust them to look to the general interests once they're there, they'll want a return on their investment of some sorts. So anyone who's putting up a lot of their own money is untrustworthy and there should be limitation on how much people can stand, erm Mill actually goes into some figures at this point and rather quaintly says erm either fifty pounds or a hundred pounds ought to be adequate and I don't know what that translates to now. Erm, so there should be a limitation of election expenses. In fact makes the claim that election expenses ought to be met from the public purse rather than the private purse of the candidates tax revenues and I should think Mill would be happy with that idea. Although erm his second idea second way of limiting the possibilities on is rather more difficult to accept now and his claim is that we shouldn't pay members of parliament, that people who go to parliament ought to be doing it out of duty and not out of er interest. What he says is that erm you know when he was writing of six hundred and fifty eight seats in parliament, I don't know how many there are now, but he says if we allowed for people to be paid, then we have as it were six hundred and fifty eight prizes to people's six hundred and fifty eight jobs for people and he says and this is rather astonishing to hear, to read this is that it will attract adventurism of low class to er parliament if we pay members of parliament. Well what about those people who are morally worthy, I take it when he says low class, he doesn't mean low moral class, but mean low social class as well he probably means both things actually. What about those people of a low social class who are of a high moral class, what about them? Well he gives the example of a contemporary member of parliament, Mister Andrew Marvel who apparently was erm, because members of parliament were not paid at this time, he was sponsored by his constituents, so they subscribed to a he was so good they managed to subscribe to and he thinks that this is the ideal solution, if someone is really worthwhile, then their constituents would be happy to pay their salary directly, rather than, than have salaried jobs. Okay so this strikes us as a rather eccentric claim er he does qualify it, he says that there may be cases where there aren't enough people of independent means in a country to present themselves, he doesn't mean England here he means some of the dependent territories and then members of parliament should be paid compensation rather than a salary. So in other words they should be paid the salaries they would have been got getting in whatever their other line of work would have been, rather than special rates of the job of an M P. I mean it may well be that we have in this country we have erm pretty much Mill's system because MPs get paid relatively little bearing in mind what most of them could be getting elsewhere, so maybe we've got something like Mill's system but it strikes us as rather a bizarre suggestion that MPs shouldn't be paid to prevent adventurous and lower classes becoming MPs. Okay so we have safeguards against unworthy rulers, much more important though Mill is worried about people voting on the wrong motives. So I've said before that erm Mill wants people to vote just in the same way that people cast their votes in a jury on the basis of what's right. He realizes that they can't, people can't be guaranteed to do this and he points out there are four different motivations that people might have that conflict with the er moral motivations. First of all there's personal interest, secondly there's class interest thirdly there's rather amusingly some mean feeling in his own mind, so he has the idea that people might just be rather grumpy or something when they're going to cast their, their vote and go to some rather destructive policy. I suppose you might think in a case now you might think that er er certain people aren't entitled to welfare benefits or something that and vote for the parties that excludes them, but that mean the sort of thing he he doesn't make much of that. Fourthly erm there's the problem of coercion that is some people might be forced to cast their vote one way or another or feel they're forced to cast a vote one way or another erm which is something we are less erm familiar with. The reason why we're less familiar with that is that we have a secret ballot and so there is no way of knowing how someone has cast their vote, and so there's no way of effectively forcing someone to cast their vote one way or another. However, Mill was against a secret ballot, Mill thought votes ought to be cast publicly and the reason for this is that he thought people ought to be voting on their view of what is right and so therefore they ought to be publicly accountable. People are much less likely to vote in their own interests, much less likely to vote in their class interests if other people know how they're voting. Mill also thinks this is a very good way of introducing female suffrage at this point which he is very much in favour of, if you had a, if you had a vote on it should if you vote if er there was a vote among the male electors about whether women should be given the vote and there was a public ballot, then it's very unlikely they would vote against the extension of franchise because their wives and daughters would be able to see what they've done, so he thinks that erm the only reason for having a secret ballot is that you're rather ashamed of what you're doing and that if you have a public ballot people will vote much more responsibly. Now Mill realizes that the objection to this is the last problem coercion, that if people's votes are known, then some people might be able to put pressure on others to vote one way rather than another and as I said why the secret ballot was brought in in the first place. For Mill's view is that coercion is now less of a worry than people voting on their class interest or their personal interest. Er here erm you can form your own views about whether Mill's right or wrong, I mean that the situation of a secret ballot was brought in to erm overcome as one where the local industrist industrialist who employed half the member of the town was also standing for parliament. Now erm in this case would your job be safe if your vote was known and you didn't vote for your boss? I mean it seems to me in those cases a secret ballot is highly desirable and coercion would be more of a danger than people voting er from the mo wrong moral motivation. But it might just be that we can't have both and we can't ensure that people vote from the right from moral motivation rather than personal interest and we can't ensure vote on coercion erm at the same time so perhaps other remedies are necessary. Now the other remedies have is one which is rather distinct of Mill that he thinks that erm of all of these forced motivations class interest is the most damaging and he argues there's a remedy for this, we'll see why it's a remedy in a minute, that certain people ought to be given more than one vote so that although everyone should have some votes, not everyone should have the same number of votes. In particular he thinks the educated should have at least two votes, he doesn't say how many erm that's a matter determined case-by-case I take it, erm erratically it could be a thousand votes I mean he doesn't rule that out, he doesn't say it has to be more than one er two, but erm his view is that the educated to a specially privileged in a specially privileged position because they are erm more able to use their vote sensibly or to be given more than one vote, so we need now there's going to be a question erm how do you know who the educated people are to make such suggestions, anyone with a university degree will be pleased to hear gets more than one vote on Mill's system. Anyone who enters the liberal profession so accountancy, medical and so on erm he made some other suggestions which we'll look at shortly. But there is something of a tension in Mill's view, because he thinks that erm it's very important that if there is plural voting then the people who only have one vote should be prepared to accept the situation, so that the reasons why these people are given extra votes should be reasoned that the public, the uneducated accept past critics have pointed out if that's going to be the case, why is it necessary to give these people extra votes, give the educated actual votes, because if the uneducated accept that the decisions of the educated are worth more than their own decisions, the opinions of the educated are worth more than the opinions of the uneducated, if they really do accept that, what's to stop them just following the decisions of the educated in their own vote? Why not simply take advice? So there's no reason why these people should be given more votes rather their superior status can be recognized by giving them more informal influence. I was actually astonished to find Mill making exactly this argument against another proposal in erm a later chapter because he considers a possibility and some people have put forward the view apparently, I haven't heard of this, erm in the version that Mill discusses, that the two stage action where we vote for people who then go to vote for the members of parliament so the individual people don't vote directly for members of parliament but they vote for people who then have elections an election among themselves. This is rather like the American system of presidential elections except that in the American system, the people who are voted for are tied to a particular candidate, so it's really just erm a convoluted way of having a direct system rather than a genuinely indirect system here. But Mill considers what, what reasons could there possibly be for having this two stage process. The arguments given in favour is that we vote for the wise and then the wise go on to make a proper final decision about who's best. Mill says exactly what I just said in response of him that is if the people are prepared to accept these why what's to stop them consulting and asking for advice about how they should cast their vote and so Mill later on gives a response to his own suggestion about plural voting in effect without realizing that what he's done. Anyway that's not important, the important thing is that he makes this, this idea that the educated should be erm given plural votes, in order to protect democracy being distorted by class interest. Now the most important threat to democracy and the way in which class interest may establish itself is Mill thinks through stupidity and this is the most er challenging threat to democracy. The, the, the numerical majority he says may just not have the intelligence to make the right decisions and what he's particularly concerned about is that the uneducated poor who he calls the numerical majority will vote to equalize property. Now his argument against this is not that actual right to property, but it's actually against the interests of the uneducated poor to equalize property if property is equalized then the economy will so he uses some sort of incentive argument here and maybe some sort of undertones here that inequalities are necessary to make the worse off better off than they would have been without them, but he thinks the uneducated poor may well be too stupid to understand this so they may go to their immediate selfish interest rather than their long-term interest. There's a further point that the effects of the policy may not strike in the first generation anyway, it may be long-term before er equalization of property has the effect and other things so these people might, might vote in their own class interest against the interest of future generations. Now Mill seems to be very unsure what to do about this because he doesn't want to say that the poor should be disenfranchised, because after all everyone is entitled to their say in government, but he does seem to be worried that if the poor are given an equal say or the uned uneducated poor are given an equal say, then they will make a very bad decision, a decision which is against their own interests and this is one reason why he favours plural voting because he recognizes that the numerical majority might make a erm wrong decision, so we should make sure that the numerical majority don't have sway in a democratic process by giving another client more weight in it so he seems to between wanting to disenfranchise them altogether which he seems to consider and just emasculating their vote by giving other people more votes. In fact one thing he says er which might make you doubt his motives somewhat is that the reason for giving people more than one vote is that they're more educated, but in general there is also a rough correlation between property ownership and education and so there's a good reason to give the property owners more than one vote, people who own a lot of property more than one vote. Now he says that someone who doesn't hold much property can prove that they're educated they should get the extra votes too, but you don't seem, you don't have to prove that you're er educated if you're rich you just get the votes anyway because that's a good . Now actually Mill did put the his erm this proposal forward, he was a member of parliament for a few years and he was trying to get this discussed in parliament. No one seemed very interested in it. Well what this springs up is the issue, one of the issues we started with which is democracy in the tyranny of the majority is what Mill recognizes is is that a maj well he claims to be concerned that the majority will make a decision which is against the interests of everyone, but he's equally concerned about the issue that the majority might make a decision which is against the interests just of a picked-on minority, people with unpopular views, people who hold er members of a different religion and so on. So erm Mill wants to protect minority from within the democratic procedure, that is he wants to set up erm a system of democracy which is as it were proof against majority corruption. One way in which he does that he thinks is by plural voting, that you give the educated more than one vote, he says we have to make sure the educated don't form their own class with their own class interests, but, but giving the educated a bigger say will lead us to make better decisions he thinks. But he also endorses a very elaborate system of proportional representation with a single-transferable vote erm this is in the chapter called voting erm it seems to me actually his system is incoherent, but he doesn't think that, I mean he argues very strongly in favour of it and various it. His idea is that you can vote if if the voter in your constit if a person you vote for in your own constituency loses, you can then switch your vote to anyone else in the country and erm you can have a list of maybe ten or twenty people and erm you will so you'll hand in your ballot paper with all these names on, signed ballot paper because it has to be public you can hand in your signed ballot paper with all these names on and if your own candidate loses, then er your vote goes to your second person and if that person loses it goes to the third and so on. The incoherence I think is that you can't ever say that anyone has lost because you don't know what's happening in the second and third and fourth erm batch, so I can't see how this system is meant to work, Mill seems to be fairly confident that it will. So he has an interesting idea that we can set up democratic procedures to protect the minority within those procedures so that tyranny of the majority is something that afflicts only certain types of democracies, but if we have other types of democracies then we can protect the minority and the idea for proportional representation is often claimed in this light, but actually it doesn't work as an idea, because although it allows a minority to be represented,represented is a different from being protected and so even if there's a member of parliament with the one member of parliament with your unpopular views, that doesn't mean that your unpopular views won't be made illegal say, because the fact that there's one member of parliament won't mean that so his procedure doesn't work. There are other ways people have tried to protect the minority, one is by saying that the, that you can generate a certain set of rights from within the democratic procedure in a different way, that is if democracies flourish people need certain liberties, people need to express their own opinions, people need to be able to do what erm assemble where they need to and so on but more common is the view that democracy should be limited by constitutional would present the minority and this is a view that Mill doesn't really defend in representative government although it seems to be very close to his view and on liberty, that is we limit the spear that this government has control over so we can't, so in this view erm democracy is given a very limited role. It's very interesting to note that in contemporary political philosophy there is almost no room left for democratic decision making because in most theories that we're given, more or less everything is already decided at a constitutional level I mean think of theory of justice, it's the theory of justice that decides the basic nature of a constitution so the role of members of a government is simply to interpret and apply the constitution so they can make the most efficient tax policies given the basic constitution, but no individual has the authority to challenge that constitution and change it by democratic means. To it's even worse I mean there, there doesn't even seem to be a government in the there's just a police force and an army and no one making political decisions, so it's a peculiarity of recent political philosophy there seems to be no room left for the democratic process to do much apart from administer, so the democracy is given a very minor role. Okay so I think that erm some of Mill's system he has given us and accounted them a type of theory of democracy but seems to me deeply by between two ideas, one is that everyone will have a say in government and the other is they shouldn't be allowed decisive say if they are going to say the wrong thing so that on the one hand we have democratic equality of a source, on the other hand we have an independent theory of the good and a democratic process should be allowed to disrupt the good of the nation and Mill just doesn't seem to be able to put these two elements in erm proper coherent fashion. So what should we conclude about our own system on the well we do have a representative democracy here, it's very unlike Mill's recommended scheme. We have no idea what people are meant are meant to be doing when they're voting, this was a problem I raised are people meant to be expressing their interest, are people meant to be voting like members of a jury? We're not told and it doesn't say on your ballot paper please be sure to remember you're voting on what you think is right rather than what is in your personal interest, you were just asked to vote. So how can we defend the system that we've got? Well, it seems that none of the arguments that have been used so far would come close to defending the type of system that we've got. Now critics of contemporary systems say so much for the worse for contemporary system, we have to move to one of the other models, maybe suitably amended and only then will we be truly free and equal. The best I think we can say about our scheme is something that Brian Barry argues. It's in a paper I didn't put on the reading list because most of it is not relevant, it's called Is Democracy Special? and this in his collective papers. What Barry says is simply this that suppose we accept the point that authority structures are now necessary, that we couldn't have anarchy we have to have people in control. Well in a modern world we've lost the faith that certain people are appointed by God to do this for us, or especially naturally fitted to do it, so how are we going to accept the rule of some people rather than others? Well he thinks the only way that modern will accept the rule of one person rather than another is if they think they're somehow there as a result of their own action, so we'll only accept the rule of erm our leaders if we think we put them there and we take them back again, we put them there and can recall them and this for Barry is the only merit that contemporary democratic policy democratic erm systems that it allows us to think of our rulers as having some legitimate claim to rule. Without democracy we wouldn't be able to say who should rule, with democracy we can we can say these people because we voted for them and that's it, we can't say these people interests we can't say that these people act in common good although if they do very badly we'll try and recall them, all we can say is they're there we need, what we need is authority structures, we need the structures more than the people occupying the roles, someone's got to occupy the roles and this is the only way we've got of appointing them. So on that very depressing note, er I'll leave we've got a few minutes for questions or objections if anyone wants to, we've got some head shaking. Right. Er. Right, I'm not sure how Anyone else? Based on? Well everyone has, everyone is entitled to vote and he also thinks that if the time is right when unmarried women were property and he thought it wouldn't be long before married women to hold property too, so he was also he wanted to reform the Married Women's Property Act. What's your own view in a nutshell the way forward to democracy? Don't have one, sorry. Er I was, I was hoping to find one but er er yep Right so there's a thought that somehow democracy ought to be self-justifying erm the well I mean quite a long way actually two types of justification of democracy, instrumental and erm Mill is defending democracy surely instrumentally and we might want to say democracy has its justification of freedom and equality. But we still need to know how, I mean maybe in a participatory democracy we can defend freedom and equality to the system not in it seems absurd to say that democracy we have now is a way of embodied freedom I mean maybe weak notion of equality, but nothing No this is the last lecture. Right, well that seems to be it. Thanks very much. I call upon the Director of Legal Services. Thank you Lord Mayor. Just on item eight and item nine, Lord Mayor, Community Health N H S Trust and Health N H S Trust, to report the fact that dispensations from the Department of the Environment have rec been received for Councillors and , enabling them to take part in the debate but er not to vote. Item two on the agenda of minutes. I move the minutes of the meeting of the Council held on the twenty first of May 1991 be signed as a correct record. Is there a seconder? All those in favour please show. Think that was a pass. Item three is apologies for absence. Are there any apologies for absence? sorry Councillor and apologies for absence from Councillor Item four on the agenda are written announcements from me, the Lord Mayor. Fire bell and evacuation procedure. I've been asked by the building custodian, acting on behalf of the fire service, to inform you that, should the fire alarm sound, you are required to leave the building in an orderly fashion by the nearest exist. No-one will be allowed to stay or return until the building has been checked. I know that members will share my sadness at the death of Mister , the former Managing Director of the . Mister was associated with the theatre from its very beginning in 1914 when, on the opening night, he was there as a pageboy, until his retirement in 1974. In the words of , General Manager of the Entertainments Section, without management and dedication the would not have survived to become the major force in British theatre that it is today. I represented the Council at Mister funeral service. Would members please rise and stand in silence in memory of Mister Thank you. joined the Borough Council as Chief Assistant at Museum in 1965. At Local Government reorganisation in 1974 he was appointed as the Field Officer to set up the innovatory Biological Databank. Since that date, under his leadership, his team have established an outstanding reputation, providing an ecological consultancy service to Local Authorities, Water th Water Companies, the National Coal Board and private Companies. Its work ranges from soil analysis to Civil Engineering firms, to drawing up green plans for Local Authorities. Now renamed Ecological Advisory Service, service has been recognised in the Birthday Honours List by the award of the M B E. His service can be summed up in his own words. It gets me closer to my ultimate goal, doing all I can to enhance the environment we live in. Mister is here with us today and I am sure that members would want to join me in extending warmest congratulations to him on his well-deserved award. I would like to extend a warm welcome to the two South Africans who are attending tod today's meeting of Council. and are are on three months' placement with, on a three months' placement with the Authority until the middle of September as part of a six months' training programme organised by the South African Advanced Educational Project. The overall aim of the programme is to provide high level training and work experience for black South Africans with senior management potential, in order that they can participate fully in providing Local Government services in a post-apartheid dem democratic South Africa. hear hear I hope that you enjoy the remainder of your stay in . The Lady Mayoress and I were honoured to have y have the pleasure of your company when you visited us recently. Thank you very much. And finally, not on the green sheet, I will tell you, to put you all out of your misery, that tea has been arranged for six thirty. Six thirty, tea. A deadly silence at that. S'alright. Ha ha. Item five, inspection of internal documents. I call on the Director of Legal Services. There've been no complaints against restrictions Lord Mayor. Item six which are petitions. I move the petition to be presented from persons requesting the Council to provide facilities for a community centre and youth club at the be received. Is there a seconder? All in favour please show. That is carried. Will the p petitioners please come forward I would welcome you to the meeting. You sp can speak for not more than five minutes. However, take your time. Please start when you're ready. Thank you. Lord Mayor, members of the Council. I and my colleague thank you on behalf of the people in for this opportunity of presenting our case for acceptance of this petition. Past occurrences, however, make us sceptical about receiving a positive response from a body who, on past performance, have been negligent in the provision of services and facilities for the community of . Contrary to public belief, is not a suburb of but an expanding community in its own right, devoid of facilities and services afforded to others under your jurisdiction. Consequently, in the limited time allotted, I will endeavour to emphasise how important such facilities and services are to the community. The teenage element of the community have one inadequate youth club which does not have the facilities to provide the required range of activities and no amount of proposed refurbishment will entice the majority to attend a club which is badly situated and of dubious reputation. has a youth problem. Drugs, glue sniffing, under age drinking and the like are very prevalent amongst the older teenagers and their influence on others a cause for concern. Certain residents are continuously subjected to unnecessary loutish behaviour and areas of the village frequently vandalised. Complaints go unactioned and complaints are . Whilst this is obviously a concern, it can be acted upon, but the influence on others, who have nothing else to do, far more damaging. The other end of the spectrum is the equally large population of elderly and retired people of the village who quite simply have nothing. The , part of the estate, purchased by the then Village Council in nineteen hundred and five for the benefit of the village, would provide a home for a community centre and youth club which, properly run and organised, would be a considerable asset to the village. Proper liaison with schools and other groups within the village and the utilisation of other premises would enable these problems to be resolved. The premises are currently occupied by the Community College who, by their unwarranted eviction of the ideal non-political Club for gentlemen of the village, prompted this action. The Local Council, in nineteen hundred and four, had the courtesy to call a rate payers' meeting to discuss the proposed acquisition of the estate and, with the approval of the meeting, proceeded with their purchase. The college, apparently with your approval, are proceeding with the eviction of the club against the wishes of the members, Local Parish Council, Community Council and the residents of the village. Rather than lose a small but integral part of the community, the petition was raised to obtain facilities which would be of benefit to the community. We suggest that the eviction is an unsubstantiated, politically motivated, empire building exercise of no benefit to the village. The college have stated that they require the room to facilitate the attendance of disabled students and or aerobic classes. The facts are, aerobic classes are not on the syllabus, facilities for the disabled are highly commendable but not practical in premises where most classes are held in upstairs locations. The was occupied, against the wishes of the village, by the college, with no improvements to premises considered unsafe and too dangerous to be continued to be used as a public library. The proposed courses for the next term confirm that the college will be only using fifty percent of the available time and space for eight months of the year. Would you accept this situation when your village is desperate for facilities and services to enhance community activities and lifestyle? The college cannot justify the use of its facilities, let along expand its activities, as it has neither the resources or required support facilities. It is highly likely, also, that the majority of courses will continue to be under-subscribed. The Council should emulate its predecessors and, without political prejudice, serve the best interests of the communities under their charge, and take the following action. Close the college, try and absorb the classes into the adequate facilities or re relocate elsewhere in the village in Council-owned premises that are more suitable, have been extensively refurbished and, if required, facilitate the expansion of the college curriculum. Two, rescind the eviction of the club. Three, permit the grange to be used as requested. In conclusion, it should be obvious that the people of the village oppose the erosion of its community facilities and that their needs are far greater than that of an insignificant empire builder. Thank you. Thank you. Does any member wish to move the subject matter be referred to the appropriate member body? Seconded, Lord Mayor. Item seven which is membership of committees. Call upon Councillor to move a motion, details of which have been circulation. I believe they've now been altered. Have they been altered? Been altered? Yes Er I I I wouldn't Oh sorry, one two nine, sorry. Er, I I move I move the motion that the education members deleted Cou Councillor and added Councillor All in favour? Sorry I think it's carried. Only just. Good. Councillor m Councillor My Lord Mayor, I'd like to move that on the standing order A seven small D the debates on the items leading to Community Health N H S Trust and Health Service's application to become N H S Trust be combined in the interests of the efficient despatch of business at this meeting and that, in the usual way, they'll both then be taken separately on each matter. I sum up Lord Mayor. favour? Yes. Clearly carried. So, under item eight which is the Community Health National Health Service Trust, call upon Councillor to move the amendmen the recommendation of the Social Services Committee. Thank you Lord Mayor Call upon Councillor to move amendment A? I'm sorry a seconded by? Ok. Call upon Councillor to move amendment A standing in his name. Seconded? Seconded my Lord Mayor Call upon Councillor to move amendment B standing in his name. Is there a seconder? Item nine which is Health Service application to become a National Health Service Trust, call upon Councillor to move the recommendation of the Socialis Social Services Committee. Moved Lord Mayor Is there a seconder? Now then, we'll move to the speakers. Councillor . Thank you Lord Mayor. In 1942 at the Labour Party Conference they adopted a motion moved by that gave, and I quote, the right to all forms of medical attention and treatment to a National Health Service. This was finally achieved on the fifth of July 1948 when the Labour Government implemented the Beveridge Report. It's worth recording that the Conservative Opposition voted against a National Health Service Bill in fa February 1946. The birth of the National Health Service was also the birth of the Conservative opposition to a free health service. hear hear The only difference between then and now is that in 1946 the Conservatives were more honest. Now they hide their intentions regarding the Health Service behind the word reform. Reform of the Health Service has been rejected by the British people. Every poll, every questionnaire, has proved this. In a recent questionnaire on a Hospital Trust in , ninety percent of the medical staff, the medical staff, voted against the implementation of a Trust. Conservative Ministers have explained this by saying that the questions are loaded. However, the newspaper asked a simple straight-forward question, are you in favour of a self-governing Trust? The response was three to one against. The Government know what the people want. They are choosing to ignore it, just as they did with the poll tax. hear hear The public's lack of confidence in the National Health Service is in direct proportion to their lack of confidence in the Government's promises. They know that yet another public asset is about to be hived off, with more promises of greater efficiency and better public service. The same things that were promised for the gas, electricity and water, but in rel reality the only section to gain are the fat cats at the top who have recently been given it's obscene pay increases. hear hear Talking of benefits, the benefits said to accrue from a Trust can be achieved under the present arrangements. Those are not my words, those are the words of Mister , who made a presentation to Social Services on behalf of the Trust. In his view it would not happen as easily or as quickly but the key point is, it could happen while maintaining the status quo. When Mister presented a case for the Trust, the main point of the proposal seemed to be that the application is only being made to prevent being swallowed by the or Trust. He freely admitted that if the present Government continued, would be completely swallowed up by 1993. At a time when is moving nearer to empowering the people and devolving decisions, the implementation of a self-governing Trust is moving policy in the opposite direction. It's putting a power into the hands of faceless Directors, picked by the Government, just as they pick their friends to head up the privatised National Industries. Councillor has been very vocal about a select committee. He has said there is no need and his group is against the proposal. Well we would expect his group to be against it. His group are against accountability. His group are against area panels and neighbourhood forums where k people can be heard and their views taken into account. His group are not for listening, they're for telling people. Something else, therefore, it's for selling, especially public assets, and they get two pluses in that. They gain the money but public accountability for those services. Once facilities are transferred to a Trust the ability of local communities to influence decision making virtually disappears. Previously Health Authorities were required to consult over the closure of any facilities. This g this safeguard disappears once the facilities are managed by a Trust. It is that gap that the select committee will fill. We'll not allow these unelected faceless Tory supporters to keep the public in the dark. The select committee will be a focal point for patients, potential patients and their relatives. As I said at the beginning, the National Health Services was born in 1948 through the efforts of the Labour Party, the first comprehensive free health service in the world. For forty three years it has been the jewel in the crown of the Labour Party legislation and for forty three years the Labour Party has defended the National Health Service against all comers. by the British people, we will continue to fight any attempt to send the Health Service the same way as the gas, electric and water. Lord Mayor I so move. Thank you Lord Mayor. I suppose I ought to start by saying, what's up doc? Because I think the first question to ask is, just what is this all about? What is this Trust status all about? Why is it being pursued? What's the reasoning behind it? Now, if we are talking about Community Health Services, let's just examine what those words actually mean. First of all, services, the last word there. Well of course you can make profit from services. The private sector makes a lot of profit from a lot of different services provided, but that's not my idea of what public services are, or should be. And don't forget we're told time and time again, almost ad nauseam, that this is to remain a public service within the National Health Service. So just tell us, how does that fit in? How does it all tie in when you look at the requirements stated in the document to actually make a profit on the provision of health services. now, to make profit on the provision of health services, to some people may seem immoral. To me it seems particularly loathsome and, when you look at the experiences in countries like America where it operates, you'll see that we want no part of it in this country. But the return is required, it's on page twenty seven of the document, and how is it to be achieved? Well, if you look at the document, it refers to the bureaucracy, the elimination of the bureaucracy, and how is it going to be done? Four point nine of the Trust submission, well it's gonna be limit eliminated because the Trust will be accountable to the Secretary of State. Now he's gonna be a very busy man this person, if it is still a man, who's going to make sure that all these Trusts are acting in an accountable way and eliminating all this bureaucracy. If he does it without any help I shall be totally amazed and I think that it's simply a facility to assume that there're gonna be reductions in bureaucracy simply by centralising because the record from the past shows that the reverse is the case. So where else are the savings gonna come from? Well, if you look in the document again, there are some wonderful euphemisms in here, er these changes will be implemented throughout the services, page eight, and it will result in increased flex increased flexibility in staffing arrangements and in the general relationship to their employees. Now, what does that mean to you? I know what it means to me. Jobs down the road, that's what it means to me. Now the next word is health,because I've seen no strong reasoning, no strong convictions, that there's gonna be any advantages in health terms in ter er as opposed to directly managed units. I am worried that some people will see this as a mental health trust and I am very disappointed that the emphasis has been placed there and not on services such as the district nurse service which gets scanty coverage within the document. But lastly I'd like to come to the word community, about which I feel so strongly. One of the advantages so called did not involve the appropriate bodies like Community Health Councils or the Trade Unions. It's conclusions, we're not subject to consultation but we're instead given wide and extensive publicity in a series of elaborate video roadshows, with information cascading down. But no notice was taken of information or opinion cascading up. The changes that're taking place, whether or not hospitals opt out, are changing N H S culture. Managers will no longer concentrate on the provision of good quality care but will in will br but will embroiled in the nightmare of contractual agreements and a preoccupation with costs. In those hospitals that opt out, there will be even more pressure to drive down costs and with it the loss of quality care to potential loss of employment and poor returns and conditions of employment for those still employed in the Trust. The Trust makes no commitment to improve the serious levels of low pay. For years, local managers have hidden behind a national agreement, privately agreeing that pay levels or poor, that they have no influence on the decisions made at national level. The staff are now not convinced that with the freedom now offered to managers to negotiate local pay bargain, that these historic low levels of pay will improve. Instead, it is feared that harmonisation of conditions may level down and not raise up. The Health Trust application has no mandate from the public it serves, nor from the staff it employs. The decision was made by senior managers and Health Authority members, none of whom now have any local accountability. About twenty to twenty five percent of the senior cl clinicians opposed the application and the percentage figure amongst other disciplines will be far higher and, as has been said, the main motivation to seek Trust status, is based upon a financial squeeze on with it's neighbours and also seeking Trust status. For to remain as a directly managed unit would place a question mark on it's future. The self interest of the senior managers has promoted the interest in the Trust application and not to a commitment to provide and maintain high quality care. Reference has been made to planning, that er the five to ten year cycle has er proved inadequate. That hasn't been because er Authorities recently have been unable to assess medical and clinical needs, but through a lack of resources. In future I believe that planning will be worse because there'll be no sort of overview, and that it will lead to an over provision of the profitable services and inadequate provision of services like mental illness, the elderly and those with learning difficulties. And the Trade Unions don't regard the N H S as a an employment exchange, but what we do expect is consultation and involvement in those changes. And what we do oppose, what we do oppose, is not inefficiency, but what we do want is quality care. In the recent experience of private contracts in the Health Service is no doesn't foretell of any great quality in the future. And itself has been a victim of that poor quality when private contracts were employed in the domestic service. So I suppose that really to say that we're not er involved in that we're not against efficiency. Choice will be limited in the future, as opposed to being better for the patients, since contractual agreements will be dictated by the purchasers and by the G P fund holders. There's no greater choice for the patients there. Just to conclude, I share the view expressed already by Councillor , that just as the issue of the elderly persons homes brought about the loss of control for the Conservatives in , be sure the Health Service will bring about the downfall of the Conservatives in White Hall. Thank you. Lord Mayor fifteen B I move the vote now be put. hear hear Seconded carried forty nine thirty six. We'll now proceed to vote on the on the two motions. Remember that while we debated them both together, the vote will be taken as separate items. Equally, I want to remind those who have declared an interest, that they should not vote. The first vote is on item eight Community Health N H S Trust. Will those who are in favour of amendment B moved by Councillor please show Those against. Well, it's obviously a lot more, so I declare it . Will those in favour of amendment A moved by Councillor please show. Those against. I think it can be safely said that that's lost. Those in favour of the substantive motion please show. Forty seven Those against Thirty, thirty two yes That is carried. Forty seven votes, thirty two against. We now move to item nine which is the Health Service application to become a National Health Service Trust. Those in favour of the substantive motion please show. Yes Ok Those against. thirty two That is also carried. Forty seven votes, thirty two against. My Lord Mayor, can I just point out, I didn't see Councillor hand going in the air. He's got an interest. he's disclosed an interest He's disclosed an interest N item ten on the agenda, building a better . I call upon Councillor to move the recommendation of the policy and resources committee. I so move my Lord Mayor Seconded my Lord Mayor I call upon Councillor to move amendment C standing in his name. Lord Mayor Seconded? Ah, the poison chalice. What sweet draft. Fourteen months ago we were told by all and sundry, particularly the media that it would be difficult, if not impossible, to recover from the despair and the destruction of the era and yet, here we sit today, with a Labour majority of sixteen, the biggest Labour majority since this Council was formed. What a complete condemnation of the Thatcherite policies that were attempted to be brought in by the controlling group opposite. We have turned this Council round, reflecting as closely as possible the values that the community expressed in the local elections of May 1990 and May 1991. The five themes that we've adopted in building a better will build on the progress we made in meeting the challenge and making the change. Improving the quality of life. This year will see a visible improvement in the quality of life of people in the district. Providing fairer shares will see the building blocks of the anti-poverty strategy being brought into action. Empowering local communities, that's what really frightens the Tories, because what it means is they'll never be able to come back with those repressive and regressive policies that they brought in two years ago. Creating positive partnership. The private sector breathed a great sigh of relief when the Labour group was returned to power in this city. And supporting the social charter, moving towards 1992, rejecting the negative approach of the Tory Government towards social reform within the community. Members of Council will know that the objective of changing the culture of the Council has gone because we've largely done the job. We've won widespread support both within the Authority and outside, with the voluntary sector, with the private sector and with other agencies, for our approach to regenerating the city. But what of the opposition? Where've they been? What a lame excuse for an opposite. We understand that was de-mob happy for quite some time and erm I know he's been disappointed recently with the Tories losing control of the local Council down down in the happy glades down South but the pink gin and pink knickers approach of Councillor is becoming a joke. There's clearly, there's clearly a no turning back group being formed on the Tory back benches with those Councillors who feel aggrieved after the night of the long knives. The opposition though feels nothing more than a tickle with a feather boa, obviously a pink one. Even officers are sniggering behind their hands as Tory Councillors pass by. One, because they were duped by Councillor and his attempts to further his own ambitions and two, because of the complete lack of direction which they have shown as a group under the leadership of Councillor . That lame approach is mirrored in the amendment that we find before us today. Stopping to personal attacks, my my. Using information with no relevance to , in my Liverpool home. All I seek is to be judged on my record and the record of this group. I will deal with problems to the best of my ability and I ev have every respect for all other leaders who try and do the same, particularly , the leader of . The opposite is so limp that I'm becoming paranoid, I'm developing a twitch, Councillor . I wonder what it could be? It must be the G B H tactics of your parliamentary candidates. Despite Tory attempts , despite Tory attempts to darken the skies over , we have emerged into the sunlight, with building a better we will build a brighter future and I move the recommendation. Councillor Thank you Lord Mayor. I certainly won't be controversial. I will end up on time. So I drink pink gin. I actually drink Tetley's bitter if preferred. What I don't do is pretend to be a socialist, organise five hundred pound a head er ticket dinners as Neil Kinnock does,champagne and then have the gall next day to go to on the nineteenth of July, on the very day when saw what the Labour Group are doing to this city. When Councillor and his Party showed the care and concern they have for our staff, when sixty members of our staff on that day attended a committee meeting of this Council to see the Labour leader open it and shut it without any debate whatsoever and walk out of the room. hear hear Quite shameful and showing what Labour Party has achieved. I think it was a pathetic spectacle and what the papers we have in front of us that the Labour party have prepared doesn't say are their achievements, I am not surprised they have tried to hide. Labour Councillors vote for a hundred and seventy four pound per couple increase in community charge, one of the biggest in the United Kingdom. Labour Councillors charge community charge payers an extra seventeen pound each for those members of the public that they have urged not to pay the community charge. hear hear The obscenity, the obscenity of a Labour Councillor, Councillor in , saying his principles mean he won't pay the community charge, but his principles do not extend to not claiming over fifteen hundred pounds worth of expenses, paid for by those people who are paying the community charge in . Labour Party say they want to tackle crime in and we have, and I hope we will debate later on this agenda, the situation where a Labour Chairman of the Police Complaints Committee turns up a public meeting urging er law- breaking and support for people who are not actually gone to trial an a the circumstances of the events really does not concern us but it's the fact that leaflets are now circularising this city, printed by our old friends, the resource centre, urging people to join the Defence Committee, which is supported by the University Labour Party , is supported by the West Labour Party and is supported by the Police Complaints Committee no less. Now Councillor thinks that it was just an accident and people will understand. People will not understand that. I am shocked. Labour Party have crippled Not a vote already Yes, Councillor , will you keep to the subject under discussion and not involving a lot of personal abuse. Of course I will Lord Mayor. I didn't plan to deviate from it at all for the rest of my speech anyway. Well you have up to now. Not drinking any of my gin Lord Mayor Labour Councillors in have crippled Social Services, have reneged on their promises to the people of when one of the biggest lies we've seen on any political papers in was that they would defend and not close elderly persons homes. Labour Councillors have set up over a hundred new Council Committee meetings, an extra six hundred meetings a year, and the hundreds of thousands of pounds that is gonna cost the people of , not the community charge payers, not the community charge payers, but those people, the elderly and the handicapped who are looking for services from this Authority, which the Labour Group will say, we can't afford to provide cos the Government doesn't send us enough money. And so, Kinnock goes to . I'm glad you brought in the subject of , the leader of the Labour Council er in which means I am not deviating, and saying that Mister and saying that Mister is now running a moderate Council. Last week pickets stopped ambulances taking mentally handicapped to schools in . Last week, adults waiting to go to a school for the adult mentally handicapped were taken there three hundred and fifty and only ten teachers were allowed into the school. At childrens' hall, which was picketed for two days, picketed for two days, by this now happy band of Labour people in Coun c c Councillor I'm responding to the No you are not I am You're now talking on anoth on a subject of the Authority which is nothing whatever to do with us this afternoon. Please come back to the sub matter under discussion. I certainly will Lord Mayor Be impartial sir A o one tends to get confused Lord Mayor. If Councillor wants to go and get a G B H haircut it tends to confuse us on this side of the er as to exactly what we are debating. Councillor says he has turned this Council around. The Labour Group have certainly turned this Council around. They've turned it from a Council that was determined to tackle the social deprivation in this city, was determined to tackle the disadvantaged, such as racial disadvantaged, by supporting the C T C, which gives a unique opportunity to Asian children in this city for education. We are pleased to see that at least the Labour Party now are deciding that they can at last work with the Government. The Government's new City Challenge Initiative, which we are all hoping will be accepted er on behalf of, that they are willing to look at social partnership with firms, although we have reservations about some of their proposals er in that area. Yes, they've turned this city round. Yes, they've turned the people in this district round from the way they were heading. There is now problems on the streets of , there is anger in the outer areas that through your postal code politics people are not getting a fair deal in the outer areas of this city. hear hear And what more, what more should we expect from a Party that is led nationally by a man who, in 1983, says, there are no circumstances in which I would order or permit the firing of a nuclear weapon, which leads somebody to say, Kinnock's lust for power is so great that he's prepared to ditch any principle to get it. And that's not from a Conservative, that's from the present Chairman of C N D, and wasn't a spectacle that was last week. And we have a nuclear basement, before you stop me, what a spectacle that was last week. He hasn't even the decency to announce it public himself. He sends a runner, Kaufman, to announce it. That's guts. That's Labour politics. hear hear Lord Mayor on a standing order A fifteen B I now move the vote now be put. Councillor , my Lord Mayor, in accordance with standing order A seven B and D, I propose to Council that the debate on agenda item eleven, percentage for out policy and agenda item sixteen, notice of motion number nine, people disabilities, be combined with separate votes at the end of the debate and that a provision of the order A eleven J and A fourteen K be amended to limit the number of speakers on the combined debate to three from the controlling group and three from notion parties. I so move, Lord Mayor. Seconded Those in favour. That's clearly agreed. Councillor Councillor to move it I call upon Councillor to move the recommendation So moved Lord Mayor Is there a seconder? Seconded Item, I call upon Councillor to move amendment D standing in her name her name I move Lord Mayor Is there a seconder? Seconded Lord Mayor Item sixteen er people with disabilities. Call upon Councillor to move the motion standing in his name. Is there a seconder? In accordance with standing order A thirteen C, this motion will stand referred to the Policy and Resources Committee for consideration and report unless the Council decide to deal with it at this meeting. What are the Council's wishes? Get it over with at this meeting Lord Mayor Seconded? Those in favour? Clearly carried. I am going to call upon Councillor to move. Mhm? Well, Councillor I waive my right to speak to Council members. Ok. Councillor ? Hello. Lord Mayor, people with disabilities detest being patronised. They also detest being called the handicapped. hear hear What is more, we hate being used as political footballs by cynical politicians. It's the ultimate insult when that politician belongs to a political party that throughout twelve years of Government has washed his hands of any responsibility for the rights and aspirations of people with disabilities. Lord Mayor, I really do not have the time to speculate in detail why Councillor has made this mistake. One should say, however, in fairness to him, that he's quite a shrewd politician, for a Tory that is. After all, when the waves of Thatcherism threatened to roll up the M one and drown Local Government in about his car I wanna know about three things about him. Not his clothes not his car not his moustache not the things he was wearing, three obvious things about that man. Three obvious things about that man. Go for it. The w the erm way he said erm No no the obvious things. He said it, but I wanna know three obvious things about him. Three very obvious and things you would forget about him straight away because it's so obvious. Think about it. Erm er he talked really No. nice. Yes he talked really nice, but the obvious things. If you was describing that man you'd all get his clothes I bet, but I bet there's three things you would forget about him, straight away. Obvious things, because it's so obvious you're forgetting, think about it. Medium built. Medium built was he? No he was skinny. Shh. Was he? Mm yeah. Was he medium built or, what was you gonna say? Skinny and tall. S s skinny and tall? Who agrees with him? Who agrees with him? It's a obvious thing about him, he was not being horrible, skinny and tall. You've said two things about him. What's the next obvious thing, very very obvious thing about him that we're forgetting? So obvious you're gonna, all gonna go oh yeah! He was white. Oh I know. Good man. He's white. He's a white tall skinny man. Yeah? Was he short and fat like me? He was tall and skinny. Yeah? Now, describe that man his clothes, describe his clothes. Black, I mean brown jacket. What, right then we're gonna see in a minute when we turn the video, see if you're right. White trainers. White trainers, we'll see if you're right . What else? The Lada car. A Lada car a Lada car eh? We will have a look to see if you was watching or giggling with your mate next door. Blue jeans. Blue jeans? We'll have a look, see if you're right in a minute. They were blue cords. Blue cords? We'll have a look to see if you're right in a minute. Dark glasses. Dark glasses, good girl, dark shiny, what they call reflection Shades. glasses or mirror glasses. Licence by number of car. Alright then, what was it? Shh Come on M J B M J B three six seven X. Who agrees with him? Who disagrees with him? Is he right? Yeah. Have the courage of your convictions, is he right? Yes. No. Yes. No Am I gonna put some doubt in your mind? Can I make you put doubt in your mind that he's wrong? I knew there was an X Hold on a second hold on. Are, is he wrong? No. Is he wrong? No Yes. Who says he's wrong? You just said y do you think you're wrong? Yeah I've just figured it out. You've just figured it out? You're wrong are you? Yeah it's meant to be four four numbers Wally! You're right! You got it right. Thought there was meant to be four. No you said it M J B three six seven X. Cos I put a doubt in your mind you changed your opinion. You was right. But I thought er No thought about it, no thought about it, you was right. Cos I went well is he right? Well is he wrong ? you changed your mind. Alright then, what kind of car was it? Think about it, and it ain't a Lada. Think about it. Blue Volkswagen. A blue Volkswagen, is he right? Yeah. You're right. It was a blue Volkswagen. What kind of a Volkswagen? If you get this you go top of the class. Golf. Close. Close. Golf. It was the one, it's a Golf with the boot on it and they're called Jettas. Okay, what have we forgot about the man? Have we got it all? Anyone think of anything else? Have we got it all? His moustache. His moustache, yeah his moustache. What colour was his moustache? Brown. Brown? What else have we forgotten about the man? I think we've nigh on got it. What colour was his erm Hair, black. Was it black? It was brown. Alright then, alright then here's one for you brown and gingery. when I don't wear Brylcreem, what's the colour of my hair? Black. White Shh What's the colour of my hair when I don't wear Brylcreem? White. Grey. Good man. It's grey. I've got Brylcreem on and it looks black. Would did he have Brylcreem on? No. I don't know. He could of done. I'm asking you, you sh you got loads to look at his hair. Yeah. Did he? I'm just putting these things in your mind to put some doubt in your mind. He looked young. I would say yeah how old was he then? Middle aged. Hands up, how old was he? Think about it. Ooh Thirty six. Thirty six Late thirties. Did he look shh shh shh shh did he look older or younger than me? Hands up, be honest. Older. Younger. Younger Younger I'm not here to be flattered I want to be the oldest. I would say he was Older. Older. Older? No. No. Younger. Younger. I'll ask someone who's gonna be honest, Vinnie, would he, was he older than me or younger? Looked younger. I would say he was younger than me, I would agree with Vinnie. He was younger than me. You was trying to butter me up weren't you? He was younger than me. I would say he was early to mid thirties whereas I am mid thirties to late thirties. Thirty two. Oh My dad's thirty but if don't know, if you don't know don't make it up. That's what I'm trying to say. You got it right and you stuck to your guns and cos I'm put a little doubt in your mind you changed. If you don't know don't guess, if you're certain, say it. Yeah? That's what I'm saying, if, if, if,a a we hope you're never in the situation but if you was describing that man, try and describe that man as honestly, honestly and as best as you can don't say, if I say to you oh did he have jeans on? Don't say oh yeah yeah he had jeans on. Try and remember it the best you can. You remembered the car, because I put doubt in your mind you changed it. No no I'm wrong, I'm wrong. Don't. If you, if that's how you remembered it tell the policeman for the description. Think about it but don't guess. If I say to you what colour w was his hair and you go I can't remember, sorry. Don't guess. Don't just say oh yeah he was blond, you could be guessing wrong. Say I'm sorry I can't remember. You see that's what I'm trying to do because you're getting older now, you can remember all these things you can remember all these things What's the question there? I just wondered how much longer Couple of minutes, couple of minutes we're just gonna show the end of the fi programme Oh. He had shoes on. He had shoes on not trainers. He had shoes on? Well we'll see. He had trainer shoes on. Shh shh shh shh shh see who's right and who's wrong. If you don't know say white type of shoes or white something, he had white Brown jacket. Brown jacket, yeah. No that's mustard. It's mustard. Oh don't get technical. Brownish, that's good enough innit? He's a tall man isn't he? He's a lot taller than I am. Shh shh shh You're getting too precise now, just remember shiny glasses. Black hair. Black hair. If you don't know they were trainers or shoes say they were a white type They look like grey. Black socks. M J B three six seven X, you were right and I convinced you you were wrong. Good words. You heard what Pippin said play safe, that's all we're saying, play safe. But remember there are people out there who want to hurt you. Yeah? You've had this video now and I've come to this school since you started this school, so you should know more about Stranger Danger than other schools cos I keep coming every year and talking to you about it. And I think we must have had this video three times, you should be word perfect by now. Just remember there are people out there who will be cruel and unpleasant to you. They may appear nice but they're not and someone you don't know is a stranger. Now after that, all have a nice holiday and play safe. Speak to you later and have a nice holiday if I don't see you. Thank you. You're more than welcome and take care. Play safe, yeah? and then I saw you on there. Did you? You was all having to be quiet weren't you? I'm not sure because there was these two blokes What's that? and they were going That man's recorded everything that was said in this room. Excuse me er It's alright it's anon anonymous. two, as an apprentice to waggon repairing. Now this er of course was railway waggons and er when you started work you was put with a skilled man and i er it was his job to repair the waggons and teach you at the same time. Now the first job he did was to get you well acquainted with the tools, which we had quite a number of them. Er spanners, and such like, and also woodcutting tools. You was expected to er to get to know these and also you was to taught to er sharpen the wood tools. Such as saws, chisels, and so forth. And er cold chisels, you had to keep those sharp, and er use a hammer and er watch as you didn't hit your fingers and knuckles. Now, after that, you was er taught all the parts of the waggons, and er this took quite a long while because we didn't know anything about them, and er where they all went and the parts they went. And then, after that, you was taught, er about six month, you was taught then er to measure the timbers up and also er start to er er mark the the er timbers out. Because everything was handmade, er all the holes in the er timbers, they had to be carefully er marked out so that y er when they went to the wood machines there was a er they would be bored in the right place, and the right size of holes. Which was ranged from half inch, to two inches, and then of course the mortices, and tenons, they had to be marked out. And then we had to cut those out, by hands hand, that er of course entailed quite a lot of work er for er for the mortices to be cleaned out, and the tenons to be cut by hand, so that they fit in the proper places. Those were joints were they? Mortices? They were join Mortice Right. and tenon's a joint. Er now after about two years, er you got more proficient and then, of course, you could also help with the stripping down of the waggons. The frame was er one section, and the body work was er er the top, of course. Er but the framework, that was all made from English oak. It ranged from er about eighteen foot long, sixteen to eighteen foot long, er twelve inches wide and five inches thick, and we was taught how to be able to handle these by balance. They the frame was er constructed on on er two trestles and, of course, er you put your trestles so that you could balance it, so that it wasn't so heavy to lift. And er, then of course, when you got the frame er right,y you put it together, by using cramps and rods, and such like. And then, of course, when you'd got that completed or or the er bad parts pu taken out and the new ones put in, of course then you put the floor down, which was er er s er seven by two and half timber, that was teal. And er, then of course, then you came along to the er to the bodywork, which was er two and a half timber teal, or p even pitched pine. But y you'd got to watch, there again, that er you didn't exceed the width of er of your waggon, which it's maximum limit was er would be er eight foot three, or er eleven foot six, high. So er, you see, you'd got to really watch what you was doing all the while. Now at this stage I'll er I'll go to the er to the wages. Er when I first started, my er wages, a first week's wage was er,e eleven and sixpence. That is the old currency. And er the firm payed me er four shilling, a week, and er the man I was working with, he he, the rest of it was taken out of his er his er wage packet er and put into mine, and so I got about eleven and sixpence a week. Er and er that went up, the firm's pay, er by sixpence a year. Sixpence a week, per year, see? Er in other words, er when I was fifteen I got sixpence a week extra and a little more from the man I worked with. And er that went, of course, on for a year. And er then, of course, when I was about eighteen, er I became what is what be what was called as an improver. Then I would be able to take lighter jobs on my own, what we'd call er light repairs. And, of course, I gradually built up then to until I got the er the main overall jobs, and er w by the time I was twenty one, of course , I was considered a full waggon repairer. Ha. So when you ? Twenty one was when you finished your apprenticeship , Yes, that's right. did you carry on working at the same place ? Yes, I c I was fortunate to be able to carry on at the same place. And where was that? That was at er m er at Tottan Sidings it was a private firm, but er they repaired th their own er their own stock of waggons. And did your wage go up a lot when you'd finished your apprenticeship ? Er yes,wh yes, I came on full rate then. It was piece work, and I earned I er The firm payed me as a retaining fee, ten shillings a week, and then was what I earned, you see? Each item, on the waggon, had a price on it. Ah, I see . You see? Er for putting in er one floor plank in, as an illustration, we got er a penny, three farthings for it. But, you see, if you'd forty of those, which would be about the your maximum, you got er forty penny, three farthings. And so on. How long would it take to build a whole waggon? Well,w I wasn't repairing them, but er I wasn't building, but to overhaul er a waggon er it would probably take you, probably a week. But if it was a light repair job it would be a day. You see, it was all hand done, you see? F er your bodywork was er it was cut off You measured and cut it off with your er at the at the mill, and er, of course, then when it got to the er you cut it You know, when you got it to the er your waggon, you put it in and, of course , then you'd got to bore all the holes by hand for the bolts to go in, to fit in. So everything was done by hand, in fact ? Everything was done by hand. You had to buy your own tools, as well. When did you buy those? At the beginning of your apprenticeship ? No, at the end. When you'd got a little bit more money. . Of course, we had to have good quality tools, we had er er now, we had Spear and Jackson saws, always, because they was the best quality. And, Ridgeways, we had a special bits, what we called a fast bit, for er for the er o the bodywork an and instead of having the the pointed er er er cutters on, it was the flat cutters, you see, they was a bit faster. And then, if we had to bore er through the oak er we had w er twelve inch bits, and they was very slow,m er er and we a also had er a special er brace with them, a fourteen inch sweep brace. Which the normal one was er er,w I think it's a five inch brace for the er er it's five inch sweeper, in other words it's er about Is it six inches? Twelve inch sweep for the er with the brace, they had normally. Were there any other special tools that you had to have? Er yes, we had to have cramps and er they was they was also provided, you see? And er we had to have er for the spr er for springs the er the buffers er we had to have a er a tool then to put the pressure on on to the buffer springs. That was provided, you see? Now er the er the draw gear, it's not just er er a coupling and a draw bar, it connects up with the er the buffer spring, which also er serves for the buffers as you know them, on the outside. Well then there was a bar went right through, well half way through, and then i it a cradle fitted on, and then there was er a coil spring fitted in there and er a set of rubbers. And then same the other end, and so it went right through that waggon, and your coupling took the strain for the next waggon and so on and so on until you'd got the complete train fitted up. I see. Erm was the place that you were working at very big, then? How many people worked there ? Er yeah, well, no. It wasn't really big, there was about thirty of us, about a dozen er waggon repairers and er and er a apprentices. And of course then you'd got the er you'd got the mill, er and then, of course, the blacksmith's shop. You see, all the iron work, as you took it off, it had to be straightened out, and if it was broken it had to be rewelded. There was no spot welding in those days, it all had to be forge weld welded . Mhm. I see. So quite a long job, Yes. in fact. And were you in a union of any sort ? Er l After I finished my apprenticeship I was in a union. Which union was that? Er Transport and General Workers Union, and, of course, then we was taken o b over by the A E U, Amalgamated Engineering Union, when we we changed course, and we all became A E U members. I see. Erm you say you started work in nineteen twenty two, so, That's right . you would have been working when the General Strike was on, That's right. do you remember anything about that ? Yes. I I was er I was out of work then, for er four month, during the er er nineteen twenty six strike. Er of course, I was an apprentice then, again. Er what would I be? Er I wasn't eighteen, and er I got er seven and six a week, dole money, that's in the old cunner currency, which would make er, let's see, er g twelve and twelve and five, about twelve shilling a week. Something like that. Mm. And er we had to walk to Long Eaton three times and week, which would be, from here, would be two and a half mile away, and then we'd we er on the Friday It was Mondays, Wednesdays and and Fridays, and we got paid on the Friday. And you was given a time to go in to sign on. We had to sign on er three times a week. We was er given a time to go and er it was anything after nine o'clock, in the morning. I see. And then you got You had to go three times a week ? Three times a week, then, yes. Why was that, then? Well, it was starvation years, actually. Can you remember what it was like managing on that amount of money? Well, we didn't. Were you living at home, then ? I was living at home. How my mother er managed we don' we'd never know. It was Did you? hand to mouth. Yeah. You gave all the money to your mother, then, did you ? Yes. Yes. Yeah. But you remember it as being Y yes. a difficult time? Yeah. And you were out of w work for four months then? A yes. Were you out of work any other time during your working No. No. No. life? I was on er What happened after that er when we was er, winter time in particular, er we was short of work, er you see, er Well er the the waggons didn't get er damaged so much because they was er they was extensively but er they was all they was weathered, you see? And it swelled the timbers up. Mm. Well of course then you get a hot summer and it er it er revealed the cracks and the breaks, see? Now er when we'd done a waggon er it wasn't just er right, that's alright, er we had a railway examiner come along and er he'd go round it and if there was anything as he was wasn't satisfied with, or any other further repairs,he he'd stop that waggon from going out, and er of course we had to go r go back and do it. Of course we got paid for that as well. Well then every three years all the wagg at the end, er they had to have an M O T. In other words, it was called general repairs. Now when it had had a general repair on it, there was a little plate put on it and er then i it w it was supposed to go out again for three years. Now er all the waggons they had a registration plate on. That's surprised you, hasn't it? Like Y a car? Right, like a car, only it was a cast plate, and it was er, on this plate was er er who it was registered by, what railway company it was registered by, er it's er load capacity, we used to have ten and twelve ton, and er it's registration number. Ah, now, that's it. And er, of course, er there was one either side of the waggon. And from there, oh y these waggons were oh, nothing to be one forty year old. Really? Yeah. That's a good age, isn't it ? Mm. Mm. Erm how long did you actually work at this same place for? Oh, about thirty year. As long as that? Yes. So what happened during the second world war? I was still there, I was in er it was classed as a reserved occupation, so I didn't have to go to to the war. But with the same rule, I wasn't allowed to leave, I couldn't leave. See? What? What does reserved occupation mean? Er it means er you was er working er now You was a reserved occupation because i it was of great importance. That's near as I can tell you about it now, it has a special name I know, but er, that's it. Y your er you was er er now. That's it,yo you was er reserved because you was more important to be on your job than er go to the war. I see. But what happened er You didn't quite get off, quite free, I was detailed to join the Home Guard. Ah. Can you tell me about that? Yes. Er I think I had two years in the Home Guard. Er we had to go to er do manoeuvres er every Sunday, see? When we weren't working. And er we used to go into er Bramcote Park and er manoeuvre er left flanking movements, and right flanking movements, and drill, and er and then, of course, and then, occasionally, we'd have a mock battle. And I was learnt to er go into a quarry and er fire the er rifles, then we had bayonet practice. And er, then, we was all sorted out, this was the staple for the Home Guard, we was sorted out er to go to er er man the guns at Sutton-on-Sea, the er girder rockets. And er I was er one that was sorted out to go, but they wouldn't let me go because er I couldn't get b they couldn't get me back to work for seven o'clock on Monday morning. That was a weekend do, you see? So you weren't allowed to go along? No, I wasn't allowed to go with. So I had to stay back in er in Stapleford, the Stapleford Home Guard. Mind you, it was er it wa wasn't er really dangerous because, of course, they, as you know, the the Germans never came. So you never really had to use any of No. the skills that you'd learnt ? We had all the equipment, gas masks and er and and gnats and all that. Rifles, and bayonets,, but the bayonets and rifles were kep at the drill hall at Stapleford. I see. Erm working at the same place for so many years you must have had? Do you remember any of your work mates in particular? Oh, yes. Yes. Oh, yes. Er er I'm afraid they're about all passed on, now. Really. You know, I'm very friendly with one of those that are, but er, we lost one this last year, I was really friendly with him. There's one big friend now, he he comes up about, oh most weeks, we come and have a natter and er and one thing or another. Can you remember any any funny stories or anything, from work? No, no, I don't know as I can. Er you see, we was er we was kept busy, you see, all the while. Er of course, it was rather dangerous work, really, because it was stuff we was dealing with. Was anybody ever injured then, that you can Oh, yes we were remember? Yes, there was one or two had er w er there was one or two got ruptured and er and one or two had broken fingers and such like. Sprained wrists and such like. Did anything ever happen to you? No, nothing happened to me. What about those that were injured, did they get any kind of compensation? Er yes, they got compensation, but not lump sums. So what would happen? It was paid out gradually? Weekly. Weekly? Yes, you got a weekly compensation. I see. Now er when er I was er eighteen I had to do pay er National Health and er it was abo er about a shilling a week and And that was insur health insurance? National Health Insurance, yes. And er of course, when I er I became twenty one, the National Health Insurance was er now went up to one and tenpence. Now er that, if I was off sick, I could go to the Doctor and er I got, as a single man, I got er a pound a week from the National Health. And of course, when I was eighteen, I think it was about er seven and six a week. That was i instead of your wages? Instead of my wages. I see. So? And er but a man a married man, it was twenty two shilling a week, you see? An but the National Health for his er, he got medical treatment for himself, but there's nothing for his family, or his children, they had to pay the Doctor. Was medical treatment very expensive, then? Er yes, and no. Er the Doctor provided the medicine and if he visited you it was seven and sixpence each visit, and if you went to his surgery, I think it was four an either four and six, or three and six. That's what it was. Mm. Did you notice the difference in how far your earnings went when you go got married? Er oh yes, I got married in nineteen thirty five and er my er take-home pay then was would be round about three pound a week, which was a good wage, in those days. You see, my day rate, then,of course I was piece work, but my day rate then would be er er two pound twelve and six pence. Less, one and tenpence. And how did you find you managed, you and your wife, managed on that amount ? Oh we managed very nicely. Was she working? No. No. Er now, I don't know whether you'll put this in your in your er talk, but er in Stapleford, if you er when you married, the girl got married er she got the good wishes of the er boss she worked with, in most of the industries, I'm not saying all. Most of the industries, and w er the day she got married, she got her cards. She was no w no no question, she ha it was one of the laws of your firm. Now, as soon as you got married, they did not employ married women. I mean I can mention the firms, there were several of them in Stapleford, because I know two, but er perhaps as well not to. So in fact, you were supporting both of you? On what you earned? Well erm my wife, as er as a tailoress, she could go to work, but she didn't. We manage we did manage, well w we managed, and we was able to g have our week's holiday a year. Three pound a week was considered a good wage. So did you A save out of your weekly earnings to go on holiday ? Yes. How did you save? Well er I think we put ours in the bank, actually . In the bank? Yes. Yeah. Oh yes. Y you put so much? Yes. away a week ? Oh we didn't er, any surplus went in the bank. Of course, er the er the hotels and such like, they weren't as expensive as they are today. You could get er a r a decent er er hotel or boarding house. The cheaper boarding houses was er would er be er four and sixpence a day, full board. And the dearer ones would be about six shilling, a week, full board. So how much would a week's holiday for two cost you? Oh, round about twenty pound. And when? About what year would that be? Er nineteen thirty five. Twenty pounds for a week's holiday ? Yeah. That's pretty good . Ti till nineteen, till nineteen forty, till the war broke out. Of course, then,ho holidays was all off. See, er now, coming to that, holidays, er you only had a week's holiday, with no pay. There was a er And then you had bank holidays, with no pay. You had er two days at Christmas, Boxing day and Christmas day, er no pay. Er Easter, we had er Good Friday and Monday, no pay. Whitsuntide, er er one day, with no pay. Er August bank holiday, August bank holiday Monday, first Monday in the month, no pay. If you had a week's holiday , still no pay. . They were the starvation years. You know the kinda biggish kinda looking one? Big mouth one , well you seen her. No not at all. Where you going now Chantel. Dunno Where's Tasha gone, shops? No. Tasha gone shops. No. Where is he? Where is he? Yeah, I know that song yeah shut your mouth. Fucking old song. I know more songs than you. What song do you know darling? go on, go on, go on, come on. Oh boy's a sheep. Come on, come on, what tune do you know ? Do you know What ones? Your tune,sing my song . Follow me. Different beat, different beat innit? and it goes for ever and ever Yeah yeah yeah we know we know And afterwards what's ? I can't remember it now . Oh shut it up, you know what erm, is it true about erm Benita? What about it? What about it? You tell me. I don't know, what about it? You tell me. is I don't know but, I don't know. You don't know. so why you say yes yes before? Is that a microphone? So what have you got on . Yes . When you wanna answer the question. Who Rox? Don't you it again. hang about with her. sure to hang about Angela . Ain't seen a . Who's that? Never see her. What you good little girl. So what you been reading? Er busy Er What you been reading? Shut your mouth yeah you been reading then? dry. Oh yeah tell me about work. I've got work, I, I got a job baby. Job business. What's that? Yeah. Put on a w put on a er erm Put it on. Why? Put it on. Right hang on. what you gonna sing? Yeah pass us the headphone . Are you ready? try to walk away and I'll come to depend on you,I give you all the love I had in me da da da I can't believe it's true you better stop stop with my heart, you always break my heart, you better stop before you tear us all apart you better stop . rubbish innit? shitty. Sounds fucking horrible innit. time after time I tried to walk away I come to depend on you I give you all the love I had in me. Da da da da da that's love and I can't believe it's true da da you better stop before you go and break my heart . Chantel can sing with a big fucking . I thought that was funny you know. Yeah. funny eh? Yeah. then I'll be able to chat to it. I don't know . about the . You have to, you have to be over here you know. haven't got no lyrics man chat. Bring and I chat to the r Ha some people . Want some drink Ian? Like some drink? Yeah . Wait wait wait down the side. innit? Where did Chantel and that go? Right where did Chantel go? very busy at the moment. Very busy. Dog. Sure dog this is. Where you going. Where you going Ian. Where you going? Where's Chantel gone? Where's Chantel gone? Not that Chantel. How many blokes ? supposed to let your wife what's going on. Is Chantel in there? my name is . schools is off flip the skips. Love that. I love that. Sound like crazy. big fighting boxer. Big fight. It's alright. I knew he was gonna box one of these days. Legs it. Grace. What's that Sir? How long have you been in the Army? In the Army? Yes. These are the fashion now Sir. fashion . Yes. She thinks she's tall. No. She thinks she's tall. Look at him big shoes So what, so what say it right here. Come and say it right here. Ian. Ah high. platform shoes. He's actually on platforms. How anybody can walk in those things I don't know of any. I walk in those things Are quite high but when you come down then you same size. I got a pair of yeah. I mean they was, they are not new because they was when I was a kid people were . Come back out innit? Sixties. How many people have done their, at my age, done their feet in because wearing them I don't know. I know Sir. Because I mean did you see that er on er they showed it on the Clothes Show that thing when she was wearing it. She went over. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. She innit. I'm surprised she, surprised she didn't break her ankles. Oh well. That's how it is Sir. never keep it up style innit, that's the style, platforms. No . Yeah but my ones, my platforms are out that I've got. They're not way over the top. They're yours, stand up. You better. there. Stand up. Bit higher, yeah yeah. They still, they still look very . Do they look alright? Any matches? you got about four . What's that? I got, I got enough shoes. Grace because if you catch, catch them on the pavement stop what level you've got to be very very careful. No that, I I just walk like that Sir, they're suede, they're a special way of walking. Yeah but even so, even so you could still fall over. I mean Well that's the fashion Sir. I mean I've noticed, what falling over? No not that Sir, I mean . somebody's on duty little bit like that so I'm told just won't walk in shoes. Oh well. you've All the girls are wearing them. got to stop your feet and go flying. You're it now . Well they must have had a lot of bottle. A lot of what? A lot of bottle. Oh. Oh well. when I was oh I suppose about your age, Yeah. maybe a bit younger the fashion used to be winkle-picker shoes. Winkle who? Winkle-pickers. They was the ones with points. Wh what they used to people's shoes. If you imagine that was their toes would all go up like that because of course when you're young Yeah. say ten, eleven, twelve, thirteen you, you're still growing aren't you? Yeah. What can happen is you can deform your feet. Well there's a lot of people of my age that wore these shoes Did you used to wear them Sir? No I didn't, my mother wouldn't let me have them but a lot of people have worn them. But I bet you wanted them though. Well I mean you learn as well as yourself. If your parents say no, the more they say no, you want it, don't they? Yeah So there must be lots of people of my age whose feet are like that, where they've worn these things and their feet are a bit deformed. Terrible . Ideally, you sh when you get a pair of shoes you should be able to put them on and do that Yeah. with your . Don't have to sort of spread them out like that you should toes Toes. alongside those. cos if you, they say the best time to buy a pair of shoes is at night when your sh when your feet are really swollen. Yeah. cos you know during the day your feet get hot and sticky and sweaty and swollen. So what about them, them trainers alright innit . Well any, any shoe. They're just nice and comfortable at the end of the day when your feet are really swollen but nice and easy to wear but if it's tight Mm. say she's got up with shoes only one pair of shoes nice and smart Yeah. then you put them on when your feet are all swollen at the end of the day you'll find them too tight. yeah. say cos they reckon if you measure yourself when you get up in the morning, then measure yourself when you go to bed. What I don't know Sir. Ian loo shoes. You blown that . I reckon you're slightly taller in the morning than you are at night. Cos I mean if you look at it, you're laying down all night and relax, do you see what I mean? Yeah. The time you eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve hours later when you go to bed because the force of gravity is hasn't it to . I couldn't, I can't believe though you growing up a bit better now. change . all these people there . Mark . Lucky I didn't have a hair cut then innit? I did have a hair cut haircut I did I wasn't even here when you had it like when you first came to this school. What to ? Ian something like that yeah.. fourteen to fifteen . I'm fourteen. Well they reckon you stop growing now about eighteen. can understand something, it's my birthday, right May the seventh I want a present. That'll be your . Fifteen. before you stop growing. I want a present Ian. Well you stop w Ian They reckon on average that erm eighteen yeah about eighteen cos normally the get up to what beginning of your teens. Yeah. And then when you go start growing. Ian you grow a bit more . Can do yes but they reckon that on average each generation of people is bigger bodily built than er parents. If you've got naturally tall parents then er tall . Yeah. Then you What you doing, what you doing I couldn't hear. I know. Innit Sir . Alright I'm listening, I'm listening. He's one of the best teachers in our school and . Teaching. I'm one of the best people Yet at one time it used to look quite strange to see a girl teacher but Yeah. There's one girl I know she's erm, she said she's sixty one and a half. And how old is she? Er mid twenties, she said her sisters three inches taller. I'm one and how does this on to then? I don't know I've not seen her since she's sixty one and a half six five. Oh that's terrible, way too tall. she's getting married and she's tall . make sure. That looks silly. By the time I see her put on her high heels that make it worse though. most, most women are er Most of them are tall they don't wear, they don't wear high heels, they wear flats, flat shoes. Well not only that they find that flat shoes or shoes with very little heel is a lot more comfortable to wear what happens eventually you take . Yeah. They wearing high heel shoes, very high heels Yeah. much shorter . Yeah but So my shoes they're not No yours are okay. Oh right. You've got plenty of five six inches. Yeah. that's when you come out top. Because you're sort of aren't you? so you don't like me in platforms then? platforms. The platforms. wore much of my platform to school yeah. These ain't platforms Ian. your feet shoes . Yeah she's . there . as well. Yeah.. in yet. pardon? Have you broken them in yet? What do you mean broken them in? Well when you just shoes, when you first buy them. Yeah. You know sometimes breaking them in. They hurt . when I first wore ankles . Oh yeah yeah. . Sir, don't forget it's my birthday on May the third. No I don't know one. Yeah. I know a lot of people . Yeah. Sir so we what can when you a box of chocolates Sir and a card. I'm not eating them every day though. think about it. Think about it Sir. You shouldn't have to think about it it's my birthday time and a box of chocolates and a card. Last year I was fifteen for the third time round. Yeah. Fifteen for the first time round. Third. Third time round. Third time round. What's three fifteens? What you, what you trying to do Sir? What is three fifteens? Forty five. Yes. Last year fifteen third time round. Third time round. Never heard that one? No. So you can't buy me a box of chocolates for and a card? I'll think about it. Think about it. What's the time Ian? Five past two . Five past two you play cam badminton Sir? Well I was supposed to be looking after it. take leave . Oh right. Still have to take the rucksack. Do you play? No I, I'm not all that sports minded. Just like seeing your team Sir. I mean I'm not er I think it's very good. I have other ways of keeping fit. that running. Not all . aerobics classes. I say Ian, take that out your mouth, you're so disgusting, what is it? Er boy you suck anything. suck . You suck anything man. Even Was I sucking it? innit then. Yeah you're still sucking, it's still in your mouth innit?suck . don't know that you suck all these . Look, look I brush my teeth properly. So Yeah. You don't know what, you don't know what to say Is that old ah that's brilliant. That is brilliant, that is brilliant never see you on . come come I give you a nice kiss. Ian I don't want no kiss from you. I give you, I give you a nice kiss Move, move Ian, move Get off Sir, yeah,Sir I pick you up . Sir, sir get lost, leave me alone man don't Ian. It's alright I don't want no kiss man. It's alright I don't want no kiss. station innit station make me laugh boy packed up with it's like you have to do erm spot black and white er see because what you doing fuck off he's gotta be mad you have to spot the toilet, you don't like it Ian,tell don't lie please don't lie to me. sick. Don't lie Ian. You're so lie. No, what are you doing? No, I mean no. Pardon? Oh I'm sorry Miss. Come on take it off. stupid. Find a chair Ian. set an example. Shut up. innit? What is he a black ma a black boy. black boy. yeah yeah. Don't that look fun?innit? What you laughing for? Shut up. stupid. I Ian, Ian was erm chatting on this I'll let you hear it afterwards laugh. can't hear you. You're so neurot look it don't even sound like him. It don't sound like him Yeah sound Don't tell me. tomorrow You're boring. boring. Thought you said you're bald. . Will you be quiet. She's so nasty. talking about Do you talk about bananas? Erm. No. talk about bananas Will you make sure that you do do them put the dresses on the erm different . Who's still talking?sit there talking all the way through erm No miss I haven't got no detention. Chantel. every year to me yeah it'll do . say yes Yeah bu I yeah bu It's difficult . I wouldn't cos I, I can't if I saw you in the street I don't know you I couldn't be, I couldn't be attracted to you. No it's true, it's true I, I couldn't be attracted to you. attracted . I don't know. when we No. You was he's a joker. She's been . Quiet now please Form two, Yes Miss. Lavina Yes Miss Grace is this really something you should be doing ? Well no Miss, no no no. That is stupid . No I don't mean you're a small size. That means everybody excuse me please. Right I want you to stay silent. Chantel, anyone that defies me will be here until four o'clock. quiet. Who's that? Claire Right. Grace, Jonathan. Yeah Miss. Luke. Yes. David Ian Yes Miss. Jenny,Natasha, Yes Miss. Stephen Yeah Miss. got my What Oh Chantel saved me one before. Friday, Not this Friday. This Friday coming got a reason? Got a reason? Starts this club. it's not erm it's not on. I'm not stupid got the mike on I'm not stupid. Oh is that I was just talking to man. last one. Grace what's that? Mike Oh. Recording No. Tasha. No I said to Tasha do you wanna come to a rave up. Yeah. Yeah and I got so Did you say, did you say erm I can't say it again. . Can't say that to you Ian. who gave me this? It's yours Gone in my eyes you know you're mad. can't see . So. What. What's the next lesson? Does what man. Nothing no nothing. Nothing whoa. I'm going downstairs. yesterday. said she'll never forget, said she'll never forget that Chantel. Come on. Ah ah little boy pushing big people you know. Come on get out the fucking way. Get out the fucking way man. Alright Fi-Fi. Do you wanna hear erm do you wanna hear Fiona singing?she was singing on the mike, she was singing yeah really singing you know. Alright William? Alright William? Oh my God No shut it off er You're not meant to Er. you're not meant to say in front of the classes. Oh. Why didn't you ? I've got a . Well why didn't you just bring the note and show it to me? Yeah well then . If you're wearing, if you're wearing headphones right you don't stop everybody's bound to work out and everyone lets you wear them, everyone's bound to work out you've been given permission to wear them. Right I suggest , I suggest you have and you show your note sit down otherwise people . bit messy now come in Oh today Worn it. Yeah. How come you I didn't see you. No you mean Later. Monday. was this. Er Ah. lucky for him. He's got Are you stuck? Why? I'm asking are you stuck? Why. are you stuck? Yes or no are you stuck? But why? If I ask somebody stuck you're not gonna go why. Then I'm gonna say little bit. A little bit? Yes. So am I a little bit. Why? Smelly bitch. That's all you can say innit can't say nothing else. Can't say nothing else. Can I have a pen? You got anything to say say it out loud. Fucking bitch. Alright if you've got anything to say don't smoke . You understand English are you cooperating properly? God I don't believe . Haven't got one. I have told you about ten times I have not got a pen. Have you got a pen ? Bring your own equipment. My pen's run out pass me that pencil there. I is it sharper? Yeah. Mm. She's on the . Erm let me see now. Haven't got to bring it in Monday. Mm. erm half term I think. Ain't got no one to look at it. It should be on the cover. No. What? on it's not working . You are you are joking you know that's all I can say about you. I didn't really think about it. she's a going some boy. I didn't think to erm, I didn't really think to tell her to wait. You got a cheek. I ain't got no books. Where you lot going today? Er, where? What does that mean there? Er What is there good stuff down there? what I wanted int it, the trousers. What trousers? The leather ones. Hold on a minute. What . That's it. That's nice int it. Mm mm. How much was that? Five pounds and I bought it . And how much is the trousers? Ten pounds. you bought that again? Bought what again? You, you had this the shorts. Some of it's similar man int it? Oh yes. That's nice I like that. I bought it down erm thingummybob int it? This is erm twelve ninety nine, this is eight ninety nine and I bought in erm . Yeah. Vandals . do you remember seeing them? No. I remember I remember I saw the shorts and you said they're nice. I was went to . Are you going up? You lot definitely going away for this week Yeah. have to go and get it man. expensive. That's alright, not too bad. The prices are, are reasonable, you know what I mean? Mm. Not too expensive. their prices. If you actually go in and look at the prices cos the other is the only one I'm gonna get, it was only ten pounds,only one at the bottom and this shirt white shirt is only five pounds. That's alright. You know what I mean the prices are reasonable I can't even hang it I put them, leave them in the bag. Come home now. Mm. Prices are reasonable you know what I mean? So what did Dawn buy? Dawn bought . Did Maxine go? No. I thought Maxine wanted to go. Yes. Yeah. Sure sure to Mm mm. pair of jeans all in one. forget it. I know. Not wise to it off the . You know that. large This the, this going my way for it And how much you say you paid five? Yeah. I like that. I like that a lot. Really good five, five pound there, I like the colour them . So all that money you spent. A lot int it? It's not all that much money anyway. Comes out . waist look exactly with my waistcoat, look. Oh yeah, what happened, hold out a trouser missing. it rust the back, the back bit. Yeah, I like them. waistcoat I've been saving some time to get them. flare ones. Oh yeah. Dawn should go and get a waistcoat as well cos these Waistcoats and shirts . Yeah. seven ninety nine I don't know how much the waistcoats have gone down to but they most probably gone down as well to about ten pounds the waistcoats. Yes. I paid twelve pound for the waistcoat. So you must have left that room early int it? No one o'clock. One? Yeah. You just come? Yeah. You look terrible boy. Lucky if we'd have left there early we still could have gone. Mm mm. can't be bothered to going out again boy. So what didn't Dawn buy erm, didn't Dawn have the buggy? She the baby. So who she leave the baby with? Mummy. I didn't know mummy was there. Mummy was bought them two fifty nine P. Samantha. Yeah. Maxine's here. Maxine's here. Dawn's when I come down I show her it. Dawn Er Don't touch, don't touch I bought it for Jay cos I don't like you know what I mean? Yeah I know, I haven't bought Jay nothing. Well used to get her everything. I wanna go a piss boy. get everything. Yeah, I know Get everything . Er, how much is it? Two ninety nine. Two ninety nine . That's worth it. I'll get the door. Hello Maxine Hello. Ah. bigger. You said you was home three yeah. Oh my goodness what's the matter with you? What do you wear I had a cardigan on. What cardigan? Your one. No. She looks awful int it. get a cardigan You what do you say Glen? Have a seat. Ro-Ro Ro-Ro. Ro-Ro yeah say hello say hello. Hell Say hello. Hello. Say hello Auntie Grace. Hello. Auntie Grace. This is Romax. This is Romax speaking one two three. He's only one and he's talking. Look, look. He's chatting, chat for them Romax. Say Hello Jay Jay, hello Jay This is their mum, this is their mum Maxine. Grace. Say . So w where you going now Maxine? I'm going to Leo's int it. Leos wh what Leo what erm area Leos? Dalston you know, Dalston . Yeah I migh I might come with you you know. I w I might come with you you know. Tell you what let me just get on my jacket. spend a while looking after them you know. Ah, right . Let me just get my jacket first and I'll be with you. Here's my sister Dawn Sod off. erm school. For school. Yes. Look today she looks dry,she's got . Today, today Dawn looks so drab, my sister Dawn, she's got trousers and my and my top and my top and she loves her kebabs and her her legs her dry, right. school you know. School I have to tape this for erm school. what? Just tape conversations for school. Teacher wants to know about conversations Is it still running? Yeah. What sort of people there? Oh the mums will be there. No look at my clothes man. I know. I wanna brush it off after. Erm what say. Yeah, we've got to tape, you just do your conversations and that Where's your mum? Don't know, she's upstairs. computer int it? Love computer. speak . what? She still owe me forty pence. Did you see anything you like? What time is it man? Yeah. Hold on. some of yours When was the No he dropped out and I picked it up when I was Hello hello. Shut the door please. There's my mum. There's my mum. That's what I was saying I said here's my mum. Hang on. say. I'm gonna shut that . My brother Glen he's always trying to s fix up the sitting room Do you know what you want? and my brother Glen, he's ver he's, he's forgetful, he's very forgetful and he always wants a clean up the sitting room. There's my mum talking. She's thick. on the floor man. Not Glen eh Glen he's in there fussing all the time What have you got there just over the sitting room. Oh y oh put me right today yes . He always tries to crack jokes and he's so dry. My mum trying a, here's my mum she's trying to do the, she's trying a do the butterfly. This is Romax. Hello. Everyone buys It's a real Jamaican family Romax. Jane. That'll tell you to move mum. Mum's still trying to do the butterfly but she can't get it right Let me try I don't think she'll ever get the butterfly right Sixty one, erm not the it's rough, it's rough the jacket. Got five minutes left. Yeah what you up to Reg. Yeah I'm gonna go to Leos with you Where'd you get them boots from? They look like Er you didn't did you? He Might drink Oh yeah yeah Ivan shubber shubber Hello. Say da da da da da da da Ye ye ye ye ya Say jay jay jay jay jay and he's only one. One no no. Sing. Sing. What's his song? Only cost three pounds. Worth it innit? Yeah. It's worth three pounds. You should have got a bigger size innit Dawn? things with their clothes, their clothes is good Who's that, what's that? Woman,the top that I'm gonna buy for Romax and Jason eight ninety nine and she's selling it for one fifty. not a screw but the only thing is erm she didn't have Romax size when I went there. What was it?? Oh I'm looking for wicked there's only one . there's a lot of you know though. Yeah but look at him Deacon. Who's Deacon? Deacon . Deacon went there from church? What she put a waistcoat on him for? Trying to pop style innit? You look stupid. You stink you know. I wanted to put it on today. That looks massive boy. Is that ? Shut up. This is small man I wanted it t I wished they had erm erm got the erm what was it, erm yeah tiny smaller you know. I really wanted her to wear it you know. What you bought it for erm Not today but I wanted er But I thought, I thought, I thought that's wh I thought that's erm No I thought that was erm innit? Jay's, I thought that was Jay's. Oh Jay's got one as well right take that back you can't talk English . What's that? I don't know. Nothing . Come on That's no good Only one pound On the market yeah. What market, what market have you bought it from? Roman Road. That's no good. Roman Road. You see my one. When do we take it in When do we, we take it fed up like that it off they're no good. Relax You have to buy the good ones from . You hold him, you pick him up I got to give him to you hold it Don't matter then put it on the d on the rug on the innit? And I'll still put it in the cos I'll plug it in stretch it through your mouth Grace. Big mouth up last night. Say hello Grace. Say hello Grace. Hello. Say hello. what time you still want Is it or no? paper no Everything she drew. I'm just rushing with Maxine up here yes. What she looking at One two . That's erm, Quick give me four pence please. I've only got about three P. He's gone deaf you know. Blatantly deaf. in your room. What is wro I think she's got too much ear wax. He took How much longer hold it mummy. Half an hour. whisper. How much longer more you do? Let me have a look I didn't know it would sit up. Well you can mum. He can sit up. What do you mean what Grace doing? Same think what was wrong . that when Peter came to take his picture when Oh that's good he took his picture like this. Do you remember? Come to me Chanel. come on Friday So stupid she's there she's there she says yes talk to me. Like that it went right in my Come on put your shoes on. Put on your shoes Chanel. Put on your May I come in?wait are you it up. That's fuck that's why the . No she was sucking it up man look at what you doing? She's sucking it up . oh God who's touched that? Why? I'd never give him instead of bought for her for her christening she match up the jacket and sh the socks, the socks what somebody just bought for her. she must have on the christening Yeah. and then she say mean them sat on the floor I know but I mean you do now. suck at the top boy. and the thing about you you know, you know to you. if yous lot are carrying on l like carrying on like this. Is that She's ten years old and she's sucking up her clothes. I don't understand. It's like she's a young baby, boy. buy me a Apple Any er, no I don't want a Buy me any other drink. Twenties. No you can too much. Granddad still around? never heard of. So when I called her she wake up. country Who's her, Chanel? catching hay fever. Er She don't sit down here Maxine, she know, rub her eyes, she'll rub her eyes or me her she's to try . Look some time you know can't you see I'm tired. Don't argue. I got so much If you want somebody Max Give her a lift. Max look. I wanna you man . I just wanna Them trous alr were. I wanted them trousers. trouser please. attracting nobody, she's going scratching the eyes like you sounded . Fuck all of it. You allowed the, the machine so much. Anybody fever. Look at her. You You lot talk the same as to talk. Hold on a minute. mixed up. waistcoat on for mummy. What's wrong with you, you're so stupid Dawn . she's talking. Tell me what do you put a waistcoat on him for. How much is the shirt as well the shirt? You give me yourself The shirt. The shirt. But why she put jeans on with it? That's what I'm saying that's Le Roy's. She need trousers. put on things like that. Crazy boy. she don't look English But where does She makes similar Yes. You're telling me. What are boo boos And the thing about it he's only one. Pardon? Ready. A boo boos. Here come and chat for us. Sing Carolina. Oh Carolina, Carolina Carolina Carolina Go on sing it. Go on sing it. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no dick no dick,girls do it. Let me try I was wondering why he was doing it then I realized on the tape she done that innit. what you got on your tape . No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, there's no limit one sort of tune on it. Yes. Yeah. What. nowhere. What's that? The rest is development song. Got a rogering. Mm Why did you tell him got that? I told you she don't even listen to me. Coffee. Go bring me back the drink and get me a Coke. and only one Coke give it to me, give it to me. I didn't want the Tango, she didn't listen to me what I said. Co the computer's on your brain. thing . Sorry about that. No no no no no no no no I'm every people. I'm every day people sing every day. Every day. you say I'm, I'm every day people Sing it I'm I'm I'm every day people, before I met you my life was standing still, it was standing still I had a one way ticket still, it was standing still I had a one way ticket do you want some, here that came in my head and all I wanna do if money you can to I wanna love you, for my heart and you make me a brand new woman, you make me ha, you wanna Can't sing that's why Sound like Karen. Here are woman. Maxine Max. Yeah Max. P O J Beg. Talk say something. Say no Grace's school friends Is the original bad boy Roma. Who's that got a bit more. So he's your boyfriend int he what's wrong with that? You know I don't like don't After you Lloyd come here every day get it right. Hey Dawn. Dawn she loves come here every day. Romax Ra ra ra ra. speak to you man. Funny. Funny funny. Just get out man you idiot. drink food would you. Glen said he think he, he might he thinks you are . say something. all that noise innit. Glen said he think Leave him to you yesterday innit What place? Erm We West London,Brixton Er Do you know where her. Chanine. ro ro ro ro ro Glen tunes alright innit? proudly present the best break dance in memory of the late Talk. Don't like it. Talk. Don't like it. She's only two. She's on lyrics man her dad. He's so laz unbelievable my brother. Dad I wish I was you,laughing at the bar beach come here, misguided crew I couldn't handle those things because I come in say this is my can't stand my brother boy you are the one, you're the only one saying a big think Rab King's gonna be there. He don't, he don't man Football. mind you baby love. How does it work in there? C J Crazy. Oh wo wo yeah yeah Come here. butterfly. butterfly. Butterfly. That stupid bag, original Shine your . Shine your . Shine your Shane I can't really hear it, can you hear it? Hello mumma Africa Hello mumma Africa Sing it sing it Stop it. Go on Maxine You're copying mine Maxine. conversation again. conversation. What's that one again ? conversational It's meant to be family conversation. Look That's my mum. You still don't get you know. Oh well you might as well stay cos five minutes. No What's the time out there? I phoned mum you know tell mum to get ready Jason come on Look like look like Not a boy he's a man Oh quiet . Come back hello shine your god. Go on shine your god. Shine your god. Go on. Oh Shine your god. Go on. Shine your god. I don't know what you're talking about. video there in your room for you. Shine your god. I am black. Hello my dear how are you? I'm alright. Shine your god. Shine your god. go up the stairs. made it. Do you want to take it you can finish it in your room. Alright yeah. Finish it in the next have you got fifty P? spent it on You Glen no. You, you haven't got any money either? Oh well what am I gonna do ah? me for Oh alright. asking him. What's this? Football again,a all my brothers they love football so much watching Bye bye Yeah come in Janine, hold on. Shine your god. Shine your god. Yeah shine your god, come on come shine. Where you taking him? Are you gonna sing a song? seven o'clock you know. You can't America. at four. Shine the god Shine your god. Shine the god. Oh yeah Oh yeah Oh yeah Shine the god. Shine the god. Shine your god. That was my sister singing yeah. Shine the god. God you know. just go and answer that door. That's my brother he always does it when he wakes up he dribbles as well. Don't worry Easy. Shine the god. shine the god. Make her sing that other song. Shine Yeah. Yeah Yeah yeah yeah. as well innit. Arrested development innit. Yeah. let Robert sing it, let go on, sing it Grace. Turn it down. Wait a minute Robert have a go first then. Wow yeah wow yeah wow yeah wow mm mm mm Come on it's not having no more that's it. Wow yeah wow yeah . That's it, hang on there I can't That's the finish of the tape you know. I was saying taking Mm. Mummy's taking notes. Can't hear you know. It's funny go on. mummy's taking notes. I can hear Blanche out there you know. Yeah yeah. hear it a bit louder. Go on go again go on again. I better get my jacket innit. Ro-Ro Ro-Ro Ro-Ro. timber down That one was Jason not her. Yo whose card's this? Whose card's this? Whose card's this? Mine Go back inside Ro-Ro. Go back, come inside. That dress is mine. Mm It's Romax's card. It's mine. Yeah where's Nicky? I'm going. Go on home. W w where's Leander? Gone to school. Where's Stella? Gone Gone where? Gone. Where? I lost it. You lost it? Lost it what's the other one called again? Maxine. Where's Maxine? Gone. Gone where? Gone with John. She's gone with John. Yeah. wow wow. Where's Kathy? Gone, gone work. She gone work. Yeah. Oh. What you say. hear it, can you hear it? W what did you say? Erm Samantha wants you. Alright. Come here. Hello Grace. Hi. Wh who wants me? Who wants me? Do you want to say bye to the lady? Say buy to the lady. Bye leggings you're not going out tonight. What leggings? The one T what do you want to buy those ones. I'm going out tonight. So business. Not bad is it? What's that? I definitely have to wear a top cos never worn no tights on. Mm tights Yeah but obviously I'm not going to waste time putting tights on. Pardon. sixteen fifteen one. Who's Yvonne? Can't even work like a jacket. see the bottom. The what? From the back I mean. Oh I ain't wound it up after I put my shirt down there. Oh. Look alright though. It's worth the money innit? Yeah. Can't go wrong for the money. Looks alright. The cheap . Aye you wear a shirt underneath it. If I don't wear a shirt underneath it, it's gonna look stupid. does that look stupid now? What? turn around and we'll see how that shirt looks. Can never wear a shirt it meant for a shirt underneath it. It's meant to wear like this. Yeah it is, it is. Got tights on. You got I just can't put my jacket over it. So hot So you so you cou couldn't do it anyway. Ah. There you are, Gums Gum gum. Here yeah I know what you're saying. I bought the other one. I bought it for I don't really like it . Nor do I really. Wanna read it? Eh? Eh? not record me right. Shut your mouth Angela. You're recording . Shut your fucking mouth . You bitch ! The mike ain't The mike's gone again . Testing, testing one two three. It's gone Yeah. I'm gonna oh testing, testing one two three. You can hear Yeah it's on there. What the fuck are you doing here? Yes Shut up you bastard, shut up . What, what? Ian. Your mum Ian, your mum. Your mum's got a moustache. Your mum's got a hairy tongue I've fucked your mum , I've fucked Your mum's got a on her It's alright it can hear both of you, there's two mikes look. Er er alright that's stupid anyway, forget it. I've fucked, I've fucked your mum whilst your dad was wanking on the sofa. Not funny. What do you mean not funny? What do you mean not funny? I find that funny, oh ha ha ha ha. Ha ha ha. You're not funny. Well I'm meant to be funny darling . I've got food stuck in me and I had you and your mum. Pardon . Your mum gave me a ninety niner and a What's and a erm for the rest of the viewers what's a ninety niner Ian? Ninety niner, remember what I done to you last night. Yeah what exactly is a ninety niner? You know you know what it is . No I don't know. What I done was er erm what I done was erm erm erm erm er Do you want a ham sandwich or do you want a come on what's a ninety niner Ian? I ninety niner is Remember what remember what you you're the one that introduced the ninety niner to me so I'm saying you should know about it. No I didn't introduce it Ian er it must be Chantal. introduced it yeah yeah yeah yeah Oh yeah Chantal innit? She gave me a ninety niner. gone again . You should record, no you should record that wom the woman, this woman fucking Alright then Right all sit around, take off your coats sit down, shut up what was it again? sit up, shut up. Say that again Sach? What was it? Sit down, look, I've forgotten. Oh you idiot. Sit down shut up, no sit down look up and shut up. What you listening to? This. Come here a minute. Can I have a word, can I have a word please? About what? I in private. It's private with a microphone! Clear off. Oh. Oh my God Too loud Hello, can you hear me? Yeah. So what do we have to do today? Ah? What do we have to do? In this lesson? Yeah. We have to learn she's gonna give us a photo or something and we have to A photo? Yeah. Mm. spot the difference. Fuck off. Said she wants all of that in. Ah? Said she wants all of that. Who's that? Teacher that's letting us do this. Is she? Really? Yeah. Who, who's your teacher? can't remember what her name is. Miss Gemma . What's she doing, let you do? No, not Gemma. Grace Grace Yeah? What was she gonna let you do? No just have to record people's conversations. So what's the then? Oh we had to do that erm Neighbours yesterday . What? Neighbours? What did she say? I dunno. What did you say? Spot the difference, how had life changed for the family I didn't even watch Eastenders, I missed it. Oh yeah see it. I missed it yesterday. Why? Cos I didn't watch it. I was doing something else. No well you didn't miss much anyway. I just forgot all about it. No you didn't miss much anyway. that was true innit? What? Yeah. Yeah. But erm he asked, you know Stan? He asked Stan for a job but he wouldn't give him one Oh. he's after something,h his apprenticeship so they give him a thousand pound I don't know what you gotta do you know. some photos. Is it? Sam you know erm Ricky's Oh yeah. She's out of it. I know but I, I was just saying that she Ages ago love. She can come back any time she can come back any time though. Really. Di you know Diana, Frank Butcher's son? Yeah. She's supposed to be coming in, back Oh her she's boring anyway. I suppose so. Er can we have that away please Grace. Yeah Miss, hold on a minute. We're gonna switch off now. Is it recording? Yeah. Did you see Cluedo then? Yeah. It's good innit? What you mean you have find a f you have to find a murderer? That Yeah. Yeah That is good. Who did it again? weren't it? Yeah. And Jerry Hall, did you see her? Her lipstick, oh it's bright red innit? I mean bright red! Like Ian's jacket innit? Like Ian's jacket ? Yeah, I'm telling you. Yeah. Come on Miss! Then she wonders why we haven't got on with the work. I wanna know I wanna know where Ian got his bottle of Coke from, I like that bottle of Coke. It's nice innit? Yeah. Yeah I want one. I don't like the one in cans I want get one of the bottles. Where did he get that from? Can you hear me? Can you hear me Grace? Can you hear me Grace? Yeah. funny I was making so much noise can hear it. What's the man doing then? Digging isn't he? Boring innit? Mm. Some boring work boy. What did they have in the house? The goods they have in the house, right, they've got chairs I've put they've mostly got table and chairs. Yeah but you don't know what they've got here,it's inside the house innit ? Yeah but it's full up The goods it's still that house though so they're gonna chair in it. So what you think, they've got more things there? Er all the same really cos it's still the same house. So you think, what, you don't think that they're Are those two different families or are they They're the same. So what are you saying, that erm They'd probably have more in that one than they will there Where? cos they're probably better off there than they are there. Or that The goods they have in the house as well, the goods they have in the house er seem basically the same then. To make clothes and So have you been up Walthamstow then? Ah? Have you been up Walthamstow? You saying there's nice boys up there? Yeah! Up Walthamstow? They have got some nice boys up there. Why did you say that? What? They've got nice boys up Walthamstow. What? What the hell are you talking about? You said they had nice boys at Walthamstow. Yeah. Yeah? nice boys at Walthamstow. I went to market, did I tell you that? For the first time? Yeah. It's a big market there. Yeah. What shops did you look in? really, I was just looking in the market. I went Did you look in any of the Naff Naff shops? Pretty expensive man. I thought it was cheap. That's the cheapest place you can get it from, the . bags twenty pound and purses, they had some nice No I mean the clothes. Oh yeah, well I get most of mine Naff Naff stuff from there. I know but that's expensive that shop. What shop? I wanna know how to get there though cos if What shop? There's a couple down there. can't remember what it was called. Reds? Don't know what it is. That's, oh, I love some of the Naff Naff stuff in there but it's really dear. That's what I'm saying. clothes on the market. Mm. Down they've got They had these waistcoats You don't know where to, you don't know how to get there? No. Don't you know how to get to ? time I tell you. I know Grace! But Well if she lives down Dawson, all she has to do is get a one O six to Clapton, right? Yeah. And just cross over, you know And, what, get a number eight bus? You get S two. S two? Yeah. And it takes you all the way there? It takes you straight there. It takes you outside the market and then you walk through. Yeah just I I know there's a bus stop before the market. Yeah, that's, yeah it takes you there and you come off there, you have to keep on looking out the window you can't miss the stop anyway. I know, I know it goes They're only little buses so you won't be able to miss the stop. No you can't miss it man. I know it goes past the hospital, right? Yeah. And you have to go through this er park thing and then Victoria Park. It's basically near Victoria Park innit? Roman Road? Dunno. It is. No it's a good market. Do you know where Vicky Park is? Course you do. It's near there, round the back That's how you get there, well you wanna go there this Saturday. Is it open Saturday? When's it closed? I know it's closed during the week or summat. No it isn't. No it ain't. It's open on Tuesdays and Thursdays in the week Mm. and on Saturday, it's not open any other day. Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday, that's it. It closes at two o'clock though dunnit? Or whatever. Mm two on a week days and, what is it? About four But there's a lot of people on a Saturday you know I know. I got people s stepping on my feet, I was, I was practically screaming. I haven't been down the Roman for ages. I've been down there. You see because someone took me in the car. I'll have to go down there on a Saturday, my mum said she'd take me down there. I thought it was a number eight bus. S two. Write it down how to get there Do you know Jasons down there? Who? Jasons. Dunno. I don't really look at the shops It's outside the market. I've probably been in all the shops down there but I, I don't know what the name is. There's a pub across the road anyway from the Roman. Do you erm you know erm, what is it? Erm what's that shop called? Come on we're supposed to do work you know, we're talking about these So work's boring innit? I know. It's worse than we ever had Where's Miss gone? Dunno. Look she's there. This work is boring though. What question you on? E environment. Are you? E? Mm. look, the pictures ain't that clear man. The environment. All I need now innit? E the environment It don't show you much does it? That's what I'm saying. The should say We've got Irish family the definite We've got I Grace you've got Irish family. Yeah. I've got Indian Indian. Alright Miss? Yeah? see what she's taping. See what I'm taping? Aha. It's for a good cause Miss. For your coursework? What's it for? For English Miss. Yeah but for your English coursework? No. It's a woman's doing it and she school innit, or something like that? That's it, yeah She take, she took six people Taping children's conversations. Teenagers. Teenagers. I'm not actually talking to a teenager though I can be talking to anyone. Miss don't believe you. Well let's say I'm, I'm just a little suspicious. It is Miss. Ask Mr , talk to Mr then cos he told me to do it. Ha! Right the environment. Come on then Oh poo! don't let me put you off. What are you shaking your head at Grace? The environment. There's not even a definite difference The environment test changed There isn't a definite difference? No. Well in one they've got a roof over their head and in the other they haven't, I would've thought that was a rather major difference. Yeah that bit yeah only that though innit? say like they've got trees You could put that they got erm The environment is the area around crops in which you live. It can be your home, where you work where they are there is that all er grass and there's all stones and things like oh I dunno. Because they, they got grass and they ain't got That's something erm farmland They're just di cos they're digging up all the grass, that's why they ain't got any grass. So it's a different environment cos yeah, it's a different not like land. You know in the forties they had just soil and stones you know? Yeah. you've got time to do another one so you've got some comparisons erm What would you say , what would you say what would you say, what would,oh my lord You don't usually get would you say that this ground had been, became richer or poorer? what is it? What would you say? They come r po What do you think? Have a look. Poorer innit? Can you say, can you see ways in which life The family became worse because Can you see ways in which life for the family has become better and become worse. so you don't have to write any of that, you just write them two. Become better? No there isn't is there? I put the family, the family became worse because Have you done better? No I'm doing worse first and I just put because Because what? What you on? Mm? E. E? Yeah. Because of what? I know the whose glasses? Hers. What? Mm. Yours? Deaf boy. What you writing? Well they haven't really come better off have they? They haven't really They're not your glasses. They haven't really come, they haven't really become better off have they? They've come worse off. Worser? That's not a word. Worse off. Oh, right. What question you on? Two? Yeah. Two yeah. Would you say that th this family generally became richer or poorer? Well they became poorer because they got all their things taken innit ? That's what I think. That's what I thought. Well you can say that they become poorer. I would s I would say that they have come poorer because they're getting all their things taken, they're, they cos What's for dinner mum? What's for dinner? Look. Chicken, roast chicken. Yeah. And er You want, and we don't erm What? And make it, make it . What's in there? What's in that pot there? It's some erm, erm broccoli. Broccoli. And what's in there? Rice. Rice. And what's in there? I got some more fish. Fish. You can have some of it . Yeah. I want my dinner in in a little bit. In a moment. Want dinner now?? Well soon. I did myself a . Ah? Be right here . Alright. And we and we'll be . Let me have my dinner. Yeah. You getting the bus? Get the bus where? Over the shops. Just up the street. Oh where you going? Well I,buy erm . Oh. have you got trespassers? Just give me some of them. Ah? Is it? Yeah. Have you got the ba , the pound there? I said to him come at four. So Samantha you went and saw ? Mhm. Ha? Aha. Mm. dress though . Say it again? She loves my dress down there. She can wear a cardigan though innit? She can wait outside here. Get Mm? inside and take her cardigan off she'll sweat to death. If, as long as her clothes are cooler underneath then you can't see innit? She might wear her shorts thing innit? Yeah, could do. Cos she wouldn't wear the top again. I reckon she'll wear, she'll wear the, the shorts. The shorts are ta , erm the business there. I can't believe that erm Rummas' short thing can fit Duvane. You know Rummas wear that, is that one how do, how old was Rummas when he wore that Samantha? Samantha! Samantha! Yeah? How old was Rummas when he wore that? What? That! That'll fit Rum , that'll fit Duvane. Yeah. Probably probably about the same as that. He was quite big cos Maxine said that she tried erm That'll fit Rummas as well actually . Yeah. Maxine goes she tried that suit on Duvane and it fit him. Said it fit him, that. It's a little bit big but it's alright she said. What you looking for? You don't know what to put on? Mm mm. Ah? How was school? It was easy. I know. Cos you're a bad girl! Bad girl. Maxine got oh I'll wash Sorry? Alright? That's the way it has to be. Gonna look Shut up! a little bit bigger than normal . Well didn't, didn't Dawn show you something mum? That she bought? But she gave to er, it was Elisha's before. It's a dress and it's got the bottoms underneath like bell bottoms,bell bottoms. But erm, we call them trousers. And they got little trousers at the bottom. Know what I mean? The dress and the What has it got little things on the bottom? No. I said a dress and a the little trousers a underneath. Yeah. That's what I said. Yeah. Mummy . Them kind of things. And Samantha the neck's dirty. The neck is dirty and the thing is white and it looks, and it's so, the neck is dirty of the top, of the What dress. It's dirty! I mean why did she take it? She gets, she's, she erm, she gave it to . Samantha look at him with my glasses on. Why's that, why did she take it? She gave it to her Samantha. In a bag? Yeah. Cos I, I certainly didn't say nothing to her. Cos I want nothing to do with her. Oh erm , Dawn said she's gonna dry clean it. Cos it's nice that's why. Mhm. Dawn said she's gonna erm dry clean it. Cos it's nice. It is nice. It's quite nice. But it's dirty boy. Ee ee Denise said oh couldn't you at least wash it? Couldn't yo Sod her! couldn't you at least wash it? This is, the neck is black. Mm. And it's black, it is black. Dawn'll have to show you anyway. I thought Dawn would have shown you. Na na na na, na na na, na na na na na na . It's squashing it. He is you jump and dance . You're squashing it. It's breaking it! You can buy me one of them knickers, one of them erm erm briefs, the ones that bought you . Aha. That's for Valentine's Day. Ha? A Valentine's Day present man. And buy him erm what He says to me erm buy me a cap, buy him a cap for his birthday. A hat. Is that what he wants? No he said to me that. Well buy it then. No he said it to me but . The most you're spending for that is ten pound. Five pounds. What d'ya mean five pounds? So hat well, well he probably wants th , the most expensive thing is about ten pound. I'm that he wants. Well you, but he di I know he , he will come out with something big, you know what I mean? Mm. Say extra, you know what I mean? I don't want extra, yeah. I want this. Yeah. But like said you sa , you said that he you said he wanted cap innit? Yes. That is exactly what,know what I mean? Must get him a Raiders one. So what time are we going out about? About, about erm one you going out? Dunno yet. Oh my gosh! Dunno. Wait a minute. Everything we do. Really? I want a cup of tea as well. You want a cup of tea? Yeah. I'll do it in a minute. Mum Jason says, Jason don't get no tea now. Neville have to go out and change. cos you, you was, you was sleeping and just wake up. Well can't, why can't Michael help? I don't understand. Yeah, he gone to work. Cos she just wake, er, erm Neville just wake up and erm Where you going Neville? For what? Get a pay phone. Get some ham. Do you think you pay for it without any money Grace? I dunno. What pay phone? Ninety nine pounds. What's that in it? Did you see it? Mum. Did you see it Grace? No. Oh. Can you pay for it? It's in here. Take your coat off man. Take your coat Sam. off! It is off! Look! I want a cup of tea. Tea? Yeah. Er er you give, you have to Jess er some cereal I'll give her a cup of tea. Mm. I'll Mum , can you save me the one with the erm Yes,you don't put sugar, you know. No. These things hurt. , look better like this don't he? You change the t shirt ma. Well, well, it it it, you know, it's not, it's not dirty you know, you know what The colour mum. it's the colour. Put on the other one upstairs. Which one? The orange one. Where is it? It's upstairs in the bag. Erm it dirty innit? I dunno. Yeah. Oh. It's dirty. For er, you know, have to be dirty innit? You know that? No. Yeah! It's still dirty. Right take it off. And er, and we don't have a cup of tea yet. Oh. So . It need fixing there. You make today? No school. Ah? No school. Why? Staff day. Oh. I see. Come in. Sinead wants a biscuit. Go on inside. you, you want it or not? I dunno. Why are you coming and telling me. It's him wanted to know. I know. Oh. Mm. Anyway, what's he coming out telling me Sinead wants a biscuit for? He's crazy man! Cos . I'll see in a minute. Norman! That wo go out there, would go out there like that? So what, she had a big hole? Cos she had a big hole like that and holes there! Oh. Did she have studs on it? Yes. Eh man. Were the holes all All, all over. All over. Norman! And what's that sitting on my give me a hand for my bed you know. But, only if I can definitely co , what about Norman? Come out. No. I'm saying no matter what my mum would never let me come for an hour, two hour. Where's that? Then you can't have Norman any more. You know? No man? Of, and your mum must not care. Yeah, maybe they don't live in it, they must have the wrong place innit? Maybe. They can't have Norman's one. Cos Norman sa , they wouldn't come to a house like that. Norman! No. That's er, really terrible then. And make up everything. Who's saying that to ? That's where they have to live in Jamaica. Hello. Oh. Alright. I just work there. I'll just, I'll have to work till later man. About one, quarter to one. They just dance and that Look I'll see you. Yeah. Bye! Let me shut my room please. Shut the door. Go on then. You're really looking . I say they, they never have Norman. That's enough. Eh boy. Grace go and take them out here. Come here. No mum, why don't you just go. Mum, you're worrying yourself for no reason. I'll miss you. No. You can put them if you it's alright. Ring, ring, ring, ring. Do it later. Grace, you never give me a hand sha ,. I chase Nah. That's right. I'll talk about it later mum cos I like these videos. Yeah? Fine. And sh she went, Sheila don't get that drink down here love. So it weren't What's that for? that good? It was better last week? Oh no. What? Was it better last week? Yes I said. Mm. I want a drink. Ha? I want a drink. Look I want! What is this then? Could I have a drink please? A drink please? Ah? Could I have a drink please? I want! Hold on. Er I want I want They won't pick the phone up so wait till later. About twelve thirty. Who wants a wine gum? Where's your ? What? What's a ? What? What's a ? What's that? Talking like a duffhead! I'm Ha! Dunno why you got a ? Where? Mm. Where? Sing Oh Carolina. Oh Carolina! Ah . Yeah! Oh God! Rubbish! Totally rubbish! You can't even sing. You might sort of like bark. They're er Stop being cheeky you. Oh Carolina . There's no buses. There's no buses running up to the centre. And there's, there's no buses running. So you can't go in. There ain't no buses running. No buses then. What you got Grace? Let's try that. I know. Yeah. Erm what time do you want me to come? Don't know. Well maybe should be in all day innit? Will you be in all day? Aye. Dawn! What? Is that Mona? I can't get off. I can't Well don't! Don't sit down ! I'm coming when I phone. Yeah. I think it might be easier. Yeah. I'll phone. Eh? Yeah alright then. Ah? Yeah, if if I know, if I remember the number. What's the number? Yeah just shut up Dawn ! What's the number again? It's nice as it is right. Yeah like, you can say something and got it wrong again. Aha. Oh yeah. Come and get me. Yeah. Yeah alright then. Yeah, later . Who's that? Wenley. What he wants you up his house? Yeah. Eh. Said there is no buses running though that go Dawston way. I gotta walk to it. Walk like they do . What time are you going? Dunno. I said, he goes like, I said to him when I, if I do come then I'll phone. And he said It's my little baby. I'm getting married in, in one of them. Get a a really good one though. Alright. I'm getting a car like that. Cos I'm gonna mash mine up. I I know. I might See her face. Gonna mash up. Gonna cut back at my work. Dirty, smoking , chicken. And reindeers . I mi , I ca , I wanna cut mine all the time. I don't wanna cut I like, I want all of it done. I know but then it But, I don't even care about the back. I just come All the way down. Oh I think that What are you curly at the back? Yeah. I'm having it done. No. I'm gonna ha have it, cut, I want it cut round like that and I want Different colour? you know the sideburns down, yeah colour that side. Pardon? And Pardon? Heavy at the back. No. No. How can you answer the phone like that. You don't me you ha , you can't answer the phone like that. Go and get the phone. Well I thought I'd asked somebody . Yeah. Oh right. Yeah. Right, I'll get Dawn ? Put it there. No here. Hello. Hold on. Hello. Yeah. Pretty cool. No Grace. I'm gonna kill you . Going to kill you. Dawn get up then. Oh wha , what, what time are you over the girl's house? Just when Dawn gets up . What time are you going to the girl's house? Half four but I've gotta find out I'm gonna kill you. I've gotta find out, if if I have my haircut well we're gonna stay away. I can't see you. I quite like that. And I've gotta find out Well Sheena's nice , she knows what you want. And I saw her before and I'd find out. Well what I wanna do is phone up and I said we , I'm gonna erm well it's more like a weave there. I want to make a weave going into the top as one innit? Cos well, where does that start at the top? Yeah but having all of my hair, that is my hair Urgh! Urgh! Urgh! Yeah, really. And that was, and that was The top, the top of her head as well though. the top of her head's about that long innit? It's really short. Well where, where sh , where, where's she weave it from there I want to have mine a bit longer where she weave it like that? It's just about, it's, the weave stops about here. I'll definitely have mine a bit longer man. I'll have mine a bit longer. It suits her cos her face is more, but I'd something a bit longer. I wanna know how she gets her hair so shiny. Grease it. Grease. Ah! I dunno man. It's like the hair is shiny. I dunno. Yeah she grease, put grease in it. But her hair looks different, I'm telling you! Yeah she grease it. cos you feel ,like that. It don't, it don't look no different to me. Maybe she put grease in it or so , there's some thing, you know, you know like the erm Just like normal grease. you got the, the sheen and that to spray on it to make it shiny. They've even got it in a book. Like I see her standing up in the toilet and I thought your hair looks nice innit? Like, I'm not talking, I don't care whether that, I'm talking about the way her hair's done, the style, the Mm. way it's cut is actually, she went to hairdressers to get it cut. Once she said she said She said she'd done it herself. she done it herself. I thought to myself, that is good. But I couldn't cut my hair tha , myself like that. You can But you can curl it. A lot of people can you know. Cos Maxine's friend, you remember Maxine's friend? Yeah, but that's her innit? I was saying Are you saying Maxine's friend cut her hair? Yeah. Her hair look wicked! Yeah, it's what I'm saying. Maxine's friend, yeah, cos she's She's the one who dyes it. she does her hair she actually weaves her hair herself and she cuts it herself. Gill says she always got a different hairstyle. Need my apron. You can carry on alright? Once you can weave your hair yourself That's good. and if you cut your hair yourself you, that's good you could always change your hairstyle you know that? Yeah I know. Cos once you can weave your hair and you cut your hair yourself, everybody'd be changing your hair innit? But Dawn, you should have carried on that course man. You'd have been doing that. Where's the ? Innit? No I'm not a weaver. Couldn't do weaving. What d'ya do? Yeah , you do everything. He comes, do you do and European, that means you gotta do everything. I'm gonna kill you! You just got but I'll have to go there for about three years. College for about three years. Cos, they was telling us about the weave for the white people and they were showing us a booklet and the and the erm There, there, there. Well Kana's must be thin innit? Yeah it's got a little thin one on at the back. Mm. I'll show you what er down the road. imitating gun noise) Cos Michelle got that one. Yeah sure. In, in the shop. Can you tell? Yeah. I'm gonna kill you! Could she do mine? Well she does hair. She does hair? Yeah. Oh! I thought you meant that she just done hers. Well obviously she do her hair then she can do a weave innit? On the side of mine something like that. Well you could, like Sharon did it on EastEnders at the side just long there and Oh. Come here. Oh. I also think that was too long. I want a side parting down the Give it to me Sinead. Give it back to her then. Yeah. Give it to me. No! I told her. It's mine. No! No! Give it to me. Tell her to give it to Dawn. Give it to Dawn. Next time you give it to me! Okay? No. You stupid monster! Stupid monster. Go on a picnic! Go on a picnic. Picnic. Picnic . Picnic. Picnic. Says exactly Picnic. as I speak it right? Picnic. Picnic. Ninky. Nickick Nicky. Nicky. Nicky . No, Nicky. Nicky . I lost it. I lost it. Nicky. I lost , I lost it. I lost it. Nicky. I lost it. Where Nicky. you find it. Where is it? The slippers you lost? It went, woo ooh woo woo ooh! They were in the closet. In the closet . I left it I left it on there. Where's your bottle? I lost it. Where's your bottle? I lost it? Well, where did you lose it? In my car. What did you do? Yeah, my, my Could be in the . It's so, it so stupid! Where's your bottle? No, no, listen here. You're trying your best not to laugh . Erm mm mm. Get down boy. Got a bit of bother with Mel boy. Right. Sinead what Erm did you do with your bottle? so , I lost it. I lost it. I threw it out of Mark's car window. I car Mar ,Mar , Mark No. car window. Dawn Erm Yes? Phone No. the woman right. Ah ah. She's got it. Go on. The girl's there. Mm? It weren't It's her. it's her. You phone her . Plus we, I waited half an hour. Oh yeah right it's sleeping No. innit? Well I couldn't sleep right. She didn't mind me sleeping. What you phone up that early for? It's like that when I do phone up innit? Oh! Could you find tha , that erm thing for me here? You'll have to give Glen the money though. Oh yeah, I'll give him the money now. Well you yeah you tell though Glen though innit? All Glen's gotta do is give me the car, if he doesn't Hello. it's just until then innit? Hello who's calling? Okay, hold on a minute. Miss from school . Ha? Miss from school. I'm not here though. innit? Well what did that go, Australian, Australian? Shall I come with you then? Look! How long you been standing there for? I've been hiding there for ages. I'm get ,anything on it. Hair. Yeah, leave me alone. Pick me. Leave me. Ha ah ha! Wanna talk to this old girl? I dunno. Leave me, leave me, leave me alone! Ah Leave her alone! Leave me alone. She got that top off the Leave me alone. teapot while she was on the toilet . Come here. Good at climbing up . Mm? You're not really wearing them braces all the time are you? Yeah. What's the point of it. What shall I say to Auntie Val? Say get lost thick lips! Oh that's very nice. Look. I don't want those. Well get out of my face. Sinead where d'ya wanna go today? Wanna come to that house and see that girl? Yeah. What girl? Sinead now eat up that Katrina? Oh yeah. You two are a whole handful Katrina. right. Rina, Rina. Sabrina, Sinead . Hello Sinead. She's gone red . She always talks to me. You are going to start to liven up . Well I'm gonna Ooh ooh! no cos why you all go in the sitting room with Allerton, they've gone in the kitchen with Allerton she'll laugh. Then I'll laugh . Oh. Sha , I bet Dawn has not a Let me see. going. Mummy. She'll come to the door, bye! She'll laugh off, she's so so damn miserable eh? And there's the So , aren't you going? No I started but no one 's worse than little Katri , er Katrina. Yeah I know. Cos we was over there Ah ah ah ah Is that She do ah ah ah ah. she don't like to dance. And you said When? that whe when she told me she is ru , she's erm Christ! She's rude right! Yeah. She's spoilt, put it that way. They don't beat her that's why? I can imagine . They don't beat her. Cos after she went there to see me, you spoil him. Why do you spoil him? Oh no man! They go we can't help it. They say they can't It's . help it. I was already told. Ah ah ah! Just shut up man will you! I thought it's only child. Oh there's five there. No I don't think it's a only child. Let me see, four, five. Then he can't , he says he can't help spoiling them. That's what he gets. Them? Yeah. He Ah? can't help it. But the last one of them Well he said something last week He says to me, could you shut up know what I mean? . See? Oh. Urgh ah, urgh ah, urgh ah. Everyone sit down ! Er, what does he know about computer? He makes me laugh boy . His face is big boy. Oh really? No, little boy. I know. I remember. He's round. His bigger head, no the body's not really round is it? Yeah, the body's round. Yeah I reckon he is. But he's I've actually round and big. That's why I say no good. Aargh! Aargh! He's alright? Cos he's big? Well, that's alright. There you go man. No big something. I'm saying that his face is big. He look different from the last time me and him were mates cos he's got older. . He's erm, Malcolm X. He looks alright. Beany look a bit better as well. He cut his hair something? Oh yeah, the hat on innit? He don't look any better to me. Ah? Didn't look any better to me. Yeah he looked better with the hat. And not, not that stupid wearing a hat though. Yeah, boy. He had a hat on like erm you know that one that Anthony's got, the black one? Ah. Th , where are we sitting man? With Jo with Josie and Beany. Oh it's lovely innit? Beany's in charge. He does that every time somebody's coming. Every night he goes out at half past ten, I said right . Mm. Gill . Ooh I saw with Jordan. But it's co , Gill'll say no but she's lying. Yeah ! That confusion if she ever brings her in work and she can take . You look posh there. Tired? No oh oh oh. Come here. Oh what's that ? And I was going Say, you know, you know when , you when Gill said to you So try there. I don't see you going off, tell you what Dawn. Yeah. You know the Come here Sinead. Dawn that What? you when Gill said to you Ah! Ah ah ah. about the split. Ah ah ah , ah ah ah. I see. Yeah? You only Da , Dawn did you see that? In the beg , er and this is very cos that's exactly what the, Nadine said to me. Does Gill's split ever end? Erm, and that's his, Chris and them. Who's the other See her split. on ? A split Dawn skirt, or dress whatever it was. Why what she wearing? Can you remember? It was really massive isn't it? Split. Can't remember. She had either a split skirt or split dress. Yeah I And the split didn't end. Oh yeah, and what's she like? I slightly remember. And you know the split was deep innit? It, all the way up here boy! So Nadine said to me does that split ever end? Wo oh, oh oh oh oh. So Judy you, Samantha was Oasis good? It was alright. Better than last week? No, no nothing's better. You can take her up there. Well this week should be better anyway. If I've got money to go. Again? Er er, regulars. Good, you could go there every week cos there's some men, it's not . What does Maxine wear? Er red, er black bobbly thing. Her what? Her black bobbly suit. All in one. You know, that one you like. What did Maureen wear then? And what did Maureen wear? Black cycle pants. And what top? A shirt? Maxine. Can I I said come here! Don't tell me no! Come on, stop using that word! Cos you don't know what I want you for. Look at your sleeve! It's all wet! She's been in my room you know, I bet you. What's that your wearing? What's that? What have you got there? Ah! Do you want one? No. You want to come and have a look at my potty. What's, so how come they're very wet. Her hands are all wet man! Smell it? Smell it what it is. I dunno. Smell it Samantha. It's alright, got a bit of water. Maybe she put her hand and Glen water, I dunno. Glen was, Glen was going like that. Glen was going mum. Yeah. It's like this is the only nights what them, d'ya know, Glen was going rather. Make it look good. He owe her. She's old innit? Ya! Mine. No. Mine. It's not yours! It's not yours Sinead. It's Jacob's. It's not Jacob's either, mine! It's the one in the sink innit? But I haven't got it. I know. You go and, you, you, you got, I haven't got it. You got it. They look good anyway. You got it. No I haven't got it. Look I haven't got it. She looks good there. What is it though? Well I haven't got it. The awards. Ah? The awards. My ball. You're not gonna get my damn things wet. Where your ball? What is the point. Got you some more corn. Samantha. Yeah. Why are you putting your small coat on mummy's bed? Samantha. Where are your balls? It's not just tonight. Where's the ball? Well it'll be nice. Where your ball? Samantha. Yeah? Why are you putting your small coat on mummy's bed? Crazy man! Why are you putting as well in mummy's bed? Give me your balls? Yes you balls. No. No. Reach me your ball. Reach your ball. She look fifty nine. Mm mm. She does. She does. Mummy. So that's what you're buying the hair for? You have to buy the sort with in it. Have to buy the so , the sort with . I'm not telling you. Leave me alone! I'm telling you. Leave me. Ain't yo , you buying this? Mm. I'm not telling you. Leave your I'm not telling you! Oh. Ha? Oh. Leave the room! Erm er You got eleven grandchildren. Die! Where's your balls? Ah ah. She knows where. Told you boy. Dawn! Er ah, ba er I was telling them at school. About what? I want those . What did you do? Find any? Well er What did you Dawn, to Sinead? I want Winnie the Pooh. I bet nothing's wrong man. I'm not telling you. No you'll cry. He will cry. Don't be so vicious man. Tomorrow night is Ah? a big moment! So why doesn't he get vicious ? Dunno. And Maxine goes it is good pe , erm a lot of children should be like him so they know how to defend theirselves. No. I'll defend him. Oh right. Look at he's beating up everyone. And Yeah. he's completely different when I Beat Elaine. Really? isn't he? Look at him beating up . Beat Elaine though. ? Yeah. And er clobbering him and That child kept on licking o my child. Licks? In the same room as we've been sitting. We don't normally do this. Exactly. That's all she does. She spoils him boy. When we take, when we take I suppose roll around on the floor. You and Michelle bought one. Yes she licked him half way through a bad one. Yeah but Well that's what I mean, that's why I said. yeah but see right, if she licked hard Imagine er that imagine gonna hit him when it, or sh , he does something to her? Yeah. Tha him, look how, look how he after mummy and I give him Yeah. one slap, I just I know. slap him for that. But went running to, listened to her. Yeah I know. And we're not allowed to have that I realize, yeah. Baseball. Mm? Baseball. I know you want it. That ca , I mean that's what I really noticed about them. You hit , hit and Maxine's trying to say, what's what's Rommus Er er what's mummy letting Rommus hit her hit her for? Er And mummy goes but Alice, Alice is crying. You know,th th they don't care if he cries. They don't care if he cries.. That's because of Rommus. But Rommus is a baby as well boy. Shout at him, he cries! That's what they should at least beat him boy. You shout at him and he cries. And he cries loud and and he cries loud erm and don't stop. Alan, Alan goes to our rescue. Sinead leave him ! What do you keep pulling him for? Give him it back ! Here are. Don't be to Jacob, I'll slap your lips off! Leave them innit? Oh. They bring it all back then. Who's there? Who was , when Molly was telling me about Jason, when Jason sa , I could have murdered Ryan doing that! When Maureen goes to Ryan and Mau , Ryan sa , Maureen said that Ryan was sick then after, when Ryan knew that he was sick ooh mummy I'm gonna be sick! And he only d id it for a reaction. Aye, aye, aye, aye. And he went, oh mummy I'm gonna be sick! No that, Mummy goes Ryan should have been, should have been a actor. Ryan, Ryan's sick already last night though. There was Ryan, Ryan sat there oh mummy, my belly! Oh oh! Mummy I'm gonna be sick! ? No. They bought a McDonalds. And he bought up the place Samantha. And he bought it up all over the place. Samantha all it,Mau Maureen, Maureen's said he was sitting there eating and he went like this. Blurgh! Right on the floor, just like that. And after he keel over and getting in the He do it in McDonalds and other place. Maureen said that, Maureen said that the bo , they had finished and Ryan like this oh mummy I'm gonna be sick! . So the, but Ryan said the thing about McDonalds they went up erm to go toilet er Samantha you must, you know you feel the vomit coming he just go like this Samantha urgh! Ah ah. I would slap him Dawn. Will you grab him? Put it down. Because you, you can feel when the vomit's coming to go to the toilet. Ryan goes er blurgh! Ah! No man. Yes. Alan contact me. Cos Ryan says, ooh! I says to him oh look there's a fight it might be worth having an automatic. But erm Peeow! Peeow! Peeow! Ryan's is erm All you he gets upset quick innit? And like Yes. people! he's got a bad temper. All the people! I'm gonna hit you. What's the matter? Let go! Yo , don't you, don't you know ats , that's erm that's the erm as a baby's I can't remember the words she used. Babies. I remember, said And Ryan said I love you. Yeah. Well I An an er, and er then they must have got a massive erm in a couple of months time, you know, they're not gonna be able to control him, he might be, well if he hits me, I'll just hit him back. I'm not making, and they're going no I don't mean that, he's gonna fight you or hit you and Steven's not gonna, you're not gonna be able to control him. If he hit me, you know hit Maxine boy then he it's not even worth having, talking to him and calls her . That's a real right. Who's is this then? It's gone man. I don't know. I don't know if he'll mess with us anyway. I know, but it's not worth it man. Cos if you, you don't know what kind of person, might be completely different man. Stop it Sinead! Is that thing going? Yes. And the, do we just accept it like that? You know, cos he's in the family and Max, Maxine, Maxine's gonna get her match you know. Don't, scratch it. Shaun did match her that day. Shaun, that was a match right. Shaun matched her Dawn. Look. Look. definitely. Shaun did match her. Yes! You can't tell me nuffink. I ain't up for Ryan she'll say no. That Yes. Yeah , Shaun, yes. Did he? Out. Out! Dawn. Oh oh. Just slap her ! Dawn. She's bad, you know. I know but you've got to slap her. No. You're trying say your talking about. Dawn . Those ! Those! No ha, you're not having them, that's Dawn. She says we're to give you I want that, I want that , I want that. No Dawn you should been here before. Hold that. I'd like to meet her meet her match. No Dawn you should have been there with Shaun, Shaun match her. Yeah. Dawn then don't tell me better, cos I know more than you. Shaun just matched her. They were saying well Maxine wants to talk to you. Yeah. Shaun matched her actually Dawn. She got thirty nine. Show Grace your birdie. What's down there? Birdie. Poo ooh, woo ooh ooh! That smells. It doesn't. Poo poo poo. You're not having it . Well, should be In there. proud of it boy. You don't wash, cos she don't wash herself that's why. Dawn er , Dawn. Ah. Is the window still pushed Come here boy. da , down? They do your head in . Let me shave your head boy. Cover that . Woo ooh ooh ooh ooh ooh, ooh! Jason, Jason loved that! He said the one I know. the geezer loves that! I said where? It's alright. I'm not gonna touch your hair. Er er Right don't do it, get down now. What are you sitting down there for? Sit there. Yeah, the social security goes out when you're changing your baby . When's that then? Seventh of November. Can I have She had a bath or anything? er your hat? Anybody in the bathroom? Take your hat. one of us here so . I'm not bathing him, I've got my own child to bath. Do you wanna hear the joke Dawn? Hear the joke. You remember when Ula was in, and she went to work When was that? Dunno. Remember that? Remember Dawn? Oh yeah. Saturday, yeah. On the Saturday right. She phoned, and she goes at no she goes, she said to mummy that she's gonna drop off some clothes cos they haven't been washed erm let, one of them lot washing. I did all the washing Dawn. Oh! What you washing them for? Mummy said to me, mummy said to me that I wash him. I'm telling you to wash him. Na no mummy, okay I'm not washing him? I don't go for that child, he's too big man. Dawn, you know what she said that I'm the clothes, I'm gonna have some clean clothes for when then I can wash him. No. That's what it is. That's right. She, so she run him up yesterday. I said, do you know what I mean Dawn? He's dirty. I'm not washing him. I don't care. Ow! Ow. Get off him ! Go and tell Nirvanas, Nirvana slap her in her face the other day. So she can slap him all the time. He's getting his revenge back. What d'ya mean revenge? Well it's just, he's just let her on that. He's a bother with that boy, alright? She'll hold fire on that she'll wait till she's in there and she'll, then she'll sa , then she'll start alright. Well she won't, Sinead won't fight him. I don't know why. She used to do it before. Are you gonna copy Sinead? Did. I was gonna and phone everybody back again. Well we will. But then he Tick a, tick a . I know someone that's gonna be hiding tomorrow night. Tick a, tick a, daddy daddy, da. Daddy, daddy, da. Tick a tick a tick. Well mummy hasn't got not money. Neither has anybody else that's Exactly. You shouldn't take advantage. But tha , Maxine said it Should leave your sisters then at the side I got nothing at the table right. Er yeah. . Tick a tick a, back on my old friend Jack . Eh? Liam. Liam? Liam. That's Yeah that's my best friend. No she calls her friend calls her brother. There you are. There you go. It's her brother? Yeah. What's Maxine's brother? Li Li Li , Liam . Er er Liam. Er Liam I ca , what's Martin's baby's name? What's Martin's baby's name? Ah? It's Liam. What Martin's baby? What's , what's Stella's, what's Stella's baby's name? That's the one. They say they innit? Oh that one is, yeah. It is Liam. Just before m w when my father and mother when they were courting before they they got married to with, yeah? Yes fine, okay. Right. Off you go then. Well my father was a farmer working at home with his mother who was a widow in . And my mother, she was a dress maker or an apprentice dressmaker if that is the correct term. And er they were courting and er my grandmother she was renting the the Park Front they called it in , Plas , in where the agricultural college is now. Er were the name of the gentry who were living in in in the place. And erm my father and another lad who was working out in the had to go Called Michael, had to go down every evening to pump water for the the animal. There was no running water in the fields, only a shaft with a pump. Then they had to go and pump water for the stock. And the ambition of all the farm lads then was to get on good terms with the maids in in the Plas because after the gentry, they'd had their dinner, the maids could invite whoever they liked into the cellar and saloon for supper. And erm my father and Michael had got to know the maids in in the Plas but Michael had grabbed the the the the good looking of the parlour maid and my father had to make do with the cook. And well, it's not nice to say that a girl is fat these days, but she was all ample proportioned we'll put it like that. And she was called Tiny. But it wasn't to be the for the friendship with Tiny that my father got to have the rattling good supper that that they provided in in in the servants room. And he'd be there once or twice and then on the Wednesday evening as was his custom, he went down to to the village, he had a date with my mother and there she was standing by the shop in the square and when she saw him coming down she turned and said,, she said and swirled her skirts round. Go back to your Tiny, she said, and off she went home. Well my father wasn't giving in so easy. And then h instead of walking home from the chapel on Sunday night with my mother, he started walking home with her father. My grandfather, Thomas , he was a a carpenter. And the were they lived, it was on a a bit of a rise about the square in and he was a very keen gardener. His curtain could be seen from the square and it was something worth looking at. And that was his pride and joy. And then my father became a very keen gardener and asking Thomas , How do you do th this and how do you do that? Well my boy, said the old man, It would be easier if you were to come over you see, for me to show you, than try to tell you here. So my father went over on the Monday evening and after such a a young man paid such interest in the garden and paying so much compliments, Well you can't go home without coming in for a cup of tea. And that is how he he he got on good terms with my mother again. In . And he went duly they got married and very fortunately there was a little of twelve acres just in the bottom of the field adjoining . Called . And the that is where they started their married life. My father working at home with his mother and farming this l twelve acre holding and my grandmother erm sub-letted the the park for him. He was doing a bit of dealing as well. We'll have a chat about the old dealers later. Doing a bit of dealing and er keeping the stock he was buying and selling in this twelve acre park in . Well it was quite a change for my mother from being a dressmaker to being a a well a smallholder's wife. She had no idea about milking or anything, but she very very soon got used to it. Erm but the most unfortunate thing that Old Edward the the old chap who owned the place he was living in part of the house and Old Jane , his housekeeper, my mother she could bake bread and wash, her mother had taught her that, but it was making butter that was the problem. And old Jane said, Don't you worry my girl, er I'll make the butter for you. And my mother, they were keeping six cows there after churning, old Jane made the butter and er taking it to to erm Mrs from who used to buy my grandmother's butter my my mother took her stock as well on the Thursday to market. But the following Thursday Mrs said, Well I'm very sorry my dear, I can't accept your butter because last week's lot didn't keep. Old Jane hadn't take enough trouble to make it proper and wash all the buttermilk out. And it had gone bad. Ah. My mother she cried oh she did she cried all night. After going to bed that night. She was so insulted you know. A young farmer's wife having her first batch of butter er rejected. And erm She was determined that she would have a go her own, the following week. And the following Wednesday, she just didn't know how to tell the old lady but it's odd how fate takes a hand occasionally. The old lady was er opening the the the not a just what we call the chamber, er the the downstairs bedroom. Opening the window, and somehow or other, the the sash it fell back, caught both her hands and jammed her finger. And there she was crying and shouting in there. Well my mother was very very sorry that the old lady had hurt her fingers but th on the other hand she was very very pleased that she couldn't make the butter. And from then on, er there was never a hitch at all, my mother was considered to be one of the best butter maker i in the vicinity. And as I had told you before on the previous er chat we had, how my father took over er when when I was two years old we moved up. His mother gave up farming and he took things over. And for the first five years of my life, I just led a very lonely life with only the my grandmother and my parents and the farm men. And I was v the and my grandmother, they had got me hooked on horses then. Not realizing that they were pr preaching about the glory that been. And I would be always be with John in the stable and I got until I got into er some danger walking er underneath a horses legs and he'd he'd send me out banned me from the stable and shut the door. Then for a day or so, I would be the cow man's mate. When I was with the cattle I always wore my the cap on the side of my head. That was way the co sign of a carter wearing his cap right on the side of his over his ear. Was it? But the cow man he wore his cap w with the peak over h er er the back of his head. Back to front, cos he'd be carrying a lot of of hay on his back and that was to stop the hay seed, going down between it shirt and his skin. And then I'd be wearing my cap back to front for a day or so. Working with with the with the cow man, but I very soon got tired, I'd be begging to be allowed back into the stable because the horses were my first love. Well when I was about five, one morning, my father fixed a cushion over the back bone of the bike. That was the way we travelled then. Practically nobody had a car in at the time. And then er tie a cushion over the back bone of the bike and have me sitting er on on this cushion on the f bike in front of him. He had we started out somewhere I had no idea where we were going, until we arrived at this big building with a high railing surrounding the yard and a crowd of children shouting and playing in the yard. It was then that I realized that he was going to leave me on my own. In this building. And I had never been away from home because er too far from the village. I had never had been playing with other children. And when I realized this I started kicking and crying. And he said, Well what would you prefer, go to school quietly or come with me over the hedge to have a spanking. Well both are awkward, I said, but I will stand a light spanking if I can come home with you after. But then, Miss the I learned later she was the infant's teacher, one of the the kindest, noblest er teachers imaginable, she came out. Er never you mind the children, she said, you go home, I'll take charge of him. And she got hold of me in her arms and carried me kicking and screaming into the school. And I was very upset for the first day, then I started settling down. But then Miss see couldn't move out of my sight, she was the only friend I had amongst all these strangers. And I wouldn't leave her side. and one day she said, Now then John I want to go to the other school to Mr , the schoolmaster to get a book. Don't you move from your seat. And she got about half a dozen of the strongest boys from standard one to stand guard at the door. But as soon as she was out I dashed like a bulldozer through these other boys and dashed out into the bottom of the yard where there was a a certain little building in the bottom of the yard, and I opened the door, and there was Miss sitting on the throne. I said to her, Ah I thought that you were going Why did you lie to me saying that you were going to get a book. But eventually I settled down. Erm to to the work and I kept er going you know like I I didn't dodge I didn't miss school. And I suppose I was an average sort of of of pupil. As we the time went on. And when I went over to standard two,Miss was the name of the teacher with the the middle classes. And she had a custom she we had to have a book called observation book. None of us had any idea what observation meant, but we had to write down a sentence or something we had noticed on our way to school. Which was a very good thing and what children of today miss when they're being whisked on a bus to school. They have no chance to notice or see anything erm and make them observant and looking out for things. In the spring when the f the daffodils and and the snowdrops started coming, and then there'd be bird's nests and all the different flowers, the farmers would start sowing, cultivating, mares would have foals, they had the harvest. There were any amount of things you could write about in Summer. But in the depth of Winter say, er from November up to after Christmas, there were very very few things you could notice and erm goodness knows how many times I fell back on he was one of the last persons to be churning with horsepower. You know, a horse turning round and round in in what they called a horse power. A long pole and it worked a lot of cog wheels and the shaft going through to the dairy to turn the churn. And er I had to fall back very often just write, I saw Mr follow the horse in in in that that churning power. I had to fall back on that many time. And erm oh the games we used to have. Whatever was going on in the village at the time when say the threshing machine was going round. We played at threshing and er shifting the thresher from farm to farm we had been w watching with horses then. And the the way was to get the heaviest boy he would the be the the threshing machine machine. And the second boy would be the the shaft horse and the other children catching hold of each other 's jerseys pulling. And we had seen the horses er er struggling and kicking Strange horses. And then that would happen and very often I've seen the the the the shaft horse having kicked the thresher in his leg, had the two fighting. Breaking the whole thing up. And then we used to be playing top, we'd a top right round the village, see how far we could go. And then playing a a hook, bowling a hook with a sort of a long hook to An iron hoop or hook it would about two foot six in circumference. And see how far you go with that. And then we'd be playing marbles. The yard then it wasn't tar just a loose surface. Then we're twist a hole with the heel of our boots, and everybody t trying to get their marbles into this hole and then whatever, if you could get your you whatever you won you could keep. And er there would be a an Eisteddfod, a competitive meeting. In in the village and then we used to have that at dinnertime. There were no school dinners then of course. All the children who were living far away, they brought a sandwich and a flask with them and eating in the desk in the classroom. And we'd have this competitive meeting and there would be a chairing ceremony erm and it's amazing the r the tidy little poems that er some of the children made then you know, children under fourteen. Some of them were a bit earthy wouldn't be very proper for me to repeat here. And they wouldn't sound the same er in English, they were Welsh poems of course. But it's amazing ho then we'd have a . Where one lot would be the hare he'd start about ten minutes before. This was during the the dinner hour. And all the rest of use would be hounds chasing after him. And maybe we'd be oh a long distance away from the school when we heard the schoolmaster blowing the whistle. And we'd be pouting away and arriving about five minutes past one and then we'd be in for trouble then . Because we were late for the afternoon lessons. Erm I don't know if I told you before, I hated any sort of games. No ball games or what we called drill which was erm P T you call it now. But I had been er made a mon I think I told you this before, a monitor and I used to dodge all these sort of things and erm I used to go after I'd been putting the books out for the next lesson, I could go to the library and I used to sit down and read. And I think that is why er er I acquired my taste for it, still I read a lot. And that was the way it went until I was eleven. And then there was a scholarship class then. You had to go sit scholarship to go to the county school we call they called it. And this was the the school master had a special class and he used to keep us in after school to have extra lessons. But I just didn't want to go, it was to my grandmother and old John they used to say, Oh no, you don't want to school, you're supposed to stay here at home. Working w with your father. My mother was the only one was keen for me to have some sort of education. But on the morning Saturday morning when the exam was being er sat in the county school in I was very very ill, too ill to get up until about eleven o'clock when it was too late. And then I missed my chance and then I had only had the little primary school in until I was fourteen. And well that's about the the erm well a rough story of my school days I think. I was average with my lessons. And not the worst and not the best, just about average. But the I offended the schoolmaster very much not sitting this exam because erm his record depended upon how many pupils he could get to pass this exam. And if he wanted a promotion to go to a better school. Erm the inspectors used to come round and it was the number of pupils he managed to get into the county school that added a lot of points to his record. And then he was very er well now I'm sorry after he'd put all the hard work with me, he was very very annoyed and disappointed that I had let him down so. But we got over it and I finished my school at fourteen and came back to work at home. At . How did you how your m mother er come to terms with the idea that you weren't going to go to the county school? She was very very disappointed. But there was nothing she could do about it then and it was too late. But she made certain that my sister who was six years younger, she made certain that she went to the county school. She became a teacher later on. And erm my my mother my father was neutral about the whole thing. He didn't didn't take side one one way or another. He was neutral. But my mother was very keen and she was very disappointed because I had missed out. I suppose if I had gone to school, my life would be completely changed. But I have no regrets. I left led I would say an uneventful life, but I've been very happy you know, ups and downs. Never very rich. And n no great heights and no great depths either. D depths either. Just sort of a a medium eventful life. I have no regrets really. Nothing nothing to worry about I was I was happy leading my own erm quiet little life you know. And that is how I have got along for the last sixty six years. When you became the The yes at home. Doing all the odd chores, helping a lot. And the women in the house, peeling potatoes, getting the coal, carrying water. Erm I used to carry a lot especially in in Summer. Erm carry all the water from a shaft in the bottom of the field for all the the animals as well in in into the and all the pigs and the calves. And er when I was Well before I was fourteen, and I believe that is why I stoop so much now. My my s young bones they've been pulled down with carrying these er er all these pails of water. How far did you How far aw w w away? Well, down the bottom of the field you know, it was a a fairly big field. And there was a a path which had been trodden back and forth down to to this er shaft with a pump on it. We had to carry in in Winter we had the rainwater off the roofs which filled two brick cisterns for the livestock. But in Summer those were dry we had to carry all the water then. When the men were out working in the field, I was left in the yard erm I helped with feeding the milking the cows, feeding the calves and the pigs. And helping the my mother. When I l left school, my mother didn't have a maid in the house shortly after that. I was doing the most of the peeling potatoes and getting the coal and the firewood. And laying the table, washing up the dishes. And churning and the carrying water for er for to for for the household and needed a lot of water when you were churning to to wash the the butter properly. And when my mother was baking in a huge ovenware basin, then she'd have the the erm the flour and the the erm what do you call it that made it rise? Yeast? The yeast yes that's the word. And then she put had some warm water and er she had to have it to the proper consistency and then she'd have a a bucket of water w standing by her side with a a jug. And once she'd had the her arms in the dough, I had to stand by her side just to feed a drop of water gently. And I remember the first time, I poured a whole jugful of water in. Without realizing I was lucky that her hands were stuck in the dough she w she would have given me a thick ear you know for for for doing that . And er anyway later on I used to er go out into the fields with the men. Oh another job that the . The men would be working out in the fields in the Summer. Then they used to have their which was a cup of tea at ten in the morning and then having their tea at four. Out in the fields. And that was part of my work. A big erm pitcher full of tea and then a basket tied on my back with the sandwiches and and the cake of scone my mother used to back more often. And another basket in my hand with with the cups. And I used to to carry out their meals to the men, and they used to be eating out in the field then. And the dogs would be sitting, staring up in their faces. They used to throw an odd crust to to the dogs. And er that was the way. That was my my life. Until later on. I became a horseman myself. And we had another . W w w when did a person or when did you stop being stop being a ? Well when I was about sixteen say. And then w that was when I were big enough in in in the hay and the corn harvest to er be in charge of the carts. Be able to make a load and strong enough to pitch it into the stack, that was the problem. And making a load of hay especially, you had to work it, roll every pitchfork you had, roll it and set it properly so that you knew as you now then you must have numbers on them so you know how to unravel that lot. Every erm pitchfork must come out one You can't start fighting and and pulling it against the grain otherwise you you would be in trouble. So every pitchfork used to come out er one after another as if you had numbers on them you know. Came out in layers. As it wasn't so heavy but that was an art, making the load. So that's and you said, if you erm don't er sweat a little in making the load, you will sweat a tremendous amount when you were busy pitching it into the into the stack. S so was that was that considered to be particularly skilful then? Oh it was it was yes, some people were considered to be very very good at building a load. They said it was like a box you know, and they could up to tremendous heights, putting I don't know how many layers. When we first started, erm erm only a tiny amount just er sort of an untidy lump on the centre. Er of the ca There were there was a a frame which stretched out the carts. Bigger on the bo you know the the of course. And then y when you came into the stockyard with a Caw, Caw,li like a a crow saying it was just something like a crow's nest. just an untidy lump. That was how they used to insult someone who had a and untidy load you know. And er that hurt and that made you much more determined to improve and be able to make a proper load as quickly as possible. W At this time,w w would you be having help from other farms? Yes, yes and you used to do a lot of sharing er one f u farms helping each other. That was quite common in those days. Er w w w well common. W w would people go out of their way to seek to find someone who was particularly skilled and with building a load and did they take Well you couldn't er the men were hired on the farms for for a term of six months you know. Yeah. And some of those well like in every other trade were better than others. Erm the erm the erm periodical men who used to come over harvest their job was to pitch it up in the field. Er they they didn't go out with the cart, just with a regular who used to go out with the with the horses and carts. Then you had a a spare man what you sent over the harvest, which you hired for a a month of occasionally they only used to come by the day. There were some er farms say of fifteen or twenty acres which wasn't quite big enough to make a living. And then these other men they used to be sort of a freelance, working a day here and a week there. They used to do what little chores they had in the morning and then again after their wives did most of it. And then they did the the heavy work erm in the in the morning and in the evening. And they weres those were like er a freel we called them freemen. And n not hired in one farm for six months. And mostly those were er married men who had a small place of their own which wasn't quite big enough to to keep them full time. And it was er er too big again for them to b become tied in one place for for a whole six months. Were they er were they Would they be treated in any d different was say er er people who had their own farms would they No. No. But er if they were just working for a single day, it was long day up till ten o'clock at night in a harvest you know. And erm their their wages were a bit higher. Th they they demanded a higher wage er for erm just because Er m a man wasn't too dear if it was a good er harvesting day, a man wasn't too dear at any price. Cos without him you couldn't get your harvest in and tomorrow it might be raining. So nobody grumbled at all about paying an extra er bit for for these men. Cos it was good to have them when you were pushed when you had a lot of of work to do. Of course the regular men they were kept on or when if it was a rainy day when they couldn't go out and just do some odd jobs in the building say, when it was a a rainy day. So it was a sort of a give and take. Some days er they worked longer hours and harder work and there were other days which er which erm they couldn't do anything much, just potter around in the buildings. And erm but with a man coming in over the harvest, they were working hard and long hours every day and they demanded and they deserved a higher wage. Was there any sort of understanding that part of the wages would be pain in food, anything like that? Oh the food was included. Nobody er erm or it was nobody thought about it li that was taken for granted. N nowadays I hear erm or the lads who have been they go out They've been working with contractor and they say how different it is when your mother was alive, everybody who came here they they used to join us for their dinner. You know the the the odd men. But now we go around farms, nobody ever ask us if we want a cup of tea that's gone out of out of practice now. And er very few men live in and er nobody er think of offering them a meal. they've got to carry their own food. You know contractor's men. but in those days it was n nobody thought i you know it was the done thing. Nobody thought of anything it was just everybody coming in for their meals. Oh a great help to sandwiches and a sit down meal at dinner at table with the family, it was far better than a dry sandwich eaten in the barn. Er can you ever remember any what might be called, failed harvests or d d difficult harvests? Oh yes yes. Yes. Erm remember the hay we would be turning it w with pitchforks you know, and erm not a well goo drying day but you had to risk turning it and hoping that it'd be dry but er it would be raining again the following day. Yes I've seen hay spoilt but you had to make do with it. You couldn't do anything else. And I've seen the corn harvest again, the the sheaves growing green out it stook. The the the the grain sprouting. And the sheaves getting stuck together er sprouting and getting stuck yes. I've seen that happen too. And I remember hearing a story, er erm it was just they'd got an old farmer he had a field of hay, just ready to cart and just as they were getting the horses, it came down to to rain and they were all sheltering in the barn, and the said, More rain, more rest. What did you say? said the old farmer. More rain, more grass, said the little fella. Quick thinking. Yes. Yes. Yes. And another job we had to do erm especially on a rainy day, ready for the worst. Er we had no hay barn then, then you had to thatch the the stacks. And you had to make what we called straw . Well er you could see the One erm wooden erm turner on the Winter there now. You see that n what n erm You you see it out the window there. Erm oh yes here it is . Yeah, that. Then we used to have two of those. A clamp like a Y yes. Used to have two and er had a a bit of a rope round middle and two then There'd be two men sitting in one end of the cow shed. You'd ha you'd have it fixed two of them fixed like this on a a bit of a erm er straw rope. Yes. There were two of them. Then be backing and turning it round like that. Two of them like this. And then there'd be two men in one end of the of a long cow shed. They had the straw which had been er pulled out even previously. And then they would be feeding the straw, making these straw ropes. Two of them. And then I as the would be turning round and round and backing right down the cow shed and the calf pen which was oh about sixteen yards length in all. And then after they had reached the other end, erm one of the men would go and stand in the middle of the two and the and the other sitting down. And we'd start I'd just turn with my right hand to join both ends of the rope and then we would be turning again. And the m th chap in sitting in the top, he'd be turning round and the other one would be walking down slowly backwards er grabbing a rope wi to to join the two to make it into a a double rope. To to to put over the stacks. Ah. How would you start them off them,straw ? We Jus Ha a length of them, put it around this thing like that, and then when you started twisting, it would have a They'd be feeding more That was a quite an art again, feeding more and more straw into it you know, as I backed along. And then twisting it round and round. It was an art to give just the right amount and that it wouldn't break. And I remember we had two men once, one used to keep his hand very very tight, squeeze it hard and the other used to make a very big, loose, untidy, whiskery sort of a rope. Well to keep his rope tight, I had to pull on the other, and the other chap would jerk me back. Don't pull, he said. Then I was going slower to suit his Well the other fella his rope would be dragging on the ground then you know, it was difficult to to to get the two to cooperate together. That was a a job on a rainy day. And then I used to the to erm coil them round. There'd be a big pile of them ready for erm for thatching the stacks. And then how would you do that then? Well after you know the the stack would be a bit untidy straight after and after it had cooled. It used to heat so then you had to give it time to cool and settle down. Then you'd be plucking the sides to make it tidy and carrying it to make a round top sort of a roof on it. Then you would have a a thick layer of straw right along the ridge. And then my father would be standing on on top and throwing one of these er straw ropes up then he'd let er an er end down on both sides. Then we had a a little wooden rake, the length of the head was a yard. Then we used to measure with that, between each rope and then, one of use each side of the stack, we'd pull hard and pull a handful of hay from the and twist it round and this handful of hay. And then when he was thatching, you would start on one end and erm putting er f pushing the the the st the thatch into the stack. And then you'd have a length of erm either you made little thinner straw ropes or erm what we called er it was a sort of a coconut twine. Erm that again had been rolled into balls and then he'd have erm about a dozen sticks which which held these balls and stuck them in then after he'd he'd erm er thatched one erm length, one row, he'd pull the string over and attach it to to the the thick s er rope that was er going over the stack. And that from one end to the other. And then there was these these thick er straw ropes going over and then there were the other which were going sideways along the roof to hold the thatch down. And how long w would he take t t t to thatch on of those then? Well it depended on the length. You know a fairly long stack could take a couple of days. And they did look really good when when they had been finished. And erm not a drop of water would get in. No? No. It would be b because the straw, the thatch had been pulled all straight it would flowing down, and then they used to er they used to th throw it over, it would be throwing the water away from the stack had been built like an egg you know. Bulging out from the base, bulging out and then coming back again. You know it was shaped just like an egg. And then that'd be throwing all the water away, it w it wouldn't soak in. And it was important, the way they built a stack. They used you know th in different layers. Then they used to put a thick layer round the sides to start with, then they would fill in the middle and keep that always stronger so that each layer er it curved. So that it would if it were were just like a trough. It would draw the water in but since there was much more more hay on in the inside, than the out, it er er it curved and then it wouldn't er erm absorb any water at all. if you didn't put enough middle in it, it would sort of sink then, then it would be drawing the water in Oh I see . and it would spoil. Did you w Y yeah that that if there was a depression in the centre. But after they'd put the the outer layer and then they used to tread and walk hard and tread the middle down. Did they? So it would be hard and solid. Mm. And then when you were cutting it in the Winter, you could see the the the layers you know. In a sort of a a a a half shaped in the stack, you could see every layer, the way it had been built. That was the art of a good stack builder again. Was there ever any danger of those catching fire? Oh yes, it you carried it too green. If you carried it too green, erm I can't remember that happening to our but I've heard of some people, having to cut a shaft down into the stack you know. We always used to push a long wire in to see how er every stack used to heat a little but er er touchwood I've never er never saw a stack heat that badly. But er there was a time, they got so If you had carried it too green, erm you er it could catch fire. And on the other hand, if you carried wet, well it would go mouldy then. And and stink and it would be all clamped together you know. And a lot of dust in it which was very very unhealthy. That was why a lot of of the old men used to get farmer's lung then, feeding this stuff in the Winter. And nobody knew anything about spores or farmer's lung or an Everybody are very conscious and they wear masks when they're feeding hay now. To stop them breathing these er spores which can affect their lungs and cause farmer's lung. Was there ever any time when you just had to accept the fact that the hay would have to be carried in wet? B because of the Well erm you kept it out as long as possible but the weather spoilt it and the more you turned it, the bla blacker it came. And all the goodness was being washed out of it. No er eventually you would get it dry of course. It was better to let it rot out on the field then go to the trouble to carry it wet because it would only rot or become mouldy and absolutely useless. And then eventually you would get it er dry enough. But then when you cut that in the Winter, it would be black and there wouldn't be any any any er er feed value, any sort of nourishment at all in it. It had all been washed out. When you came in the Winter, to gain access to the stack, Yes? how would you how would you do it ? Get at it? Yes. Well you used to took er take one length bet from one s er erm er straw up to the other, that was about a yard. Then you had a very sharp knife, er and you used to cut down half the what we called the face of the stack, you know, half the width of it. To start with. Then cut that into into er chunks again. Those again would be about a yard wide and a yard deep, then you had a a big er wire with a loop on one end with a sharp point. And they used to push this through the amount w which you had cut. And erm er grab this wire. Have one foot on a ladder or the other stack stuck into the f into the into the erm face of stack and then you would struggle and work yourself underneath what w we called it the trinkling. I suppose you would call it a truss in English. And carry it loose into the the cow shed or into the sheds for the out-wintering cattle. Or into the barn for chaffing for the horses. Always made certain that the horses had the best hay. Yes? Yes. The the the seeds hay, the first crop after after er a filed had been reseeded, the first crop you grew, that was reserved for the horses. And then the cow man would be grumbling, maybe he had some second class hay for cattle. And then he'd be grumbling, Why is the the horseman getting all the best stuff. Why can't I have My my horses and my cattle you know. Well the men considered their stock as their own then. And looked after them and er after them and took pride i i in to have them in the best condition. Oh they were not the br bosses' stock, they they they were their stock. My cattle and my horses. And the carter used to steal a lot of oats for for the the the the gaffer used to give him a ration for a week, and the granary would be lo locked. And many were the tricks that the carters They used to get on the right side of the maid and get her to make an impression of the key on a block o of soap. Then he'd take it to someone who could cut er a key er so he could open the up the granary the late in in the middle of the night, when everybody were asleep, and steal oats for the horses. It was a it was a competition between the carters to get their horses into the best condition. And then they used to go around on a Sunday morning from farm to farm to see how the other chaps are getting on and to say how much better their horses looked. Compared to what they had i in the next farm you know . Oh they were very very keen. Keen competition. W w why why was it that horses were were given pride of place over the cattle? Well the horses had to work hard. And er with the ploughing and the the cultivating, the sowing, the carting manure, carting in. Er everything depending on the the the the work of the farm would come to a standstill if erm if the horses y if they were not kept in good condition, they wouldn't be strong enough to keep on going every day. How would er how would the the the the carter's day begin and how would it progress and how would it end? Well he'd be getting up about oh shortly after five in the morning, to er feed his horses, muck out the stable, and groom them. And then he'd harness them, all except the bridle. And erm shortly after seven, breakfast would be served. He'd be in the house having his breakfast at seven so he'd be ready to take the horses out to start erm ploughing in Winter, at eight. He'd be out most most days, ploughing. And on a farm when there was only one team, if they wanted to have half a day, carting , aye well the carter was very very annoyed, he didn't like that job at all. No? But the fairly large farm, they used to have er two teams. The second carter would be having Well the the first carter h the head carter had the best team of course, ploughing. And then the second carter would be have another pair er carting er and carting manure. And doing all the odd jobs round the farm. So the actual So w why was it the fetching of etcetera, were thought of as being not so good ? Well erm it was a sticky bus you know, er a field in Winter, it was just er bare soil, there was n no no grass on it and with the cart trudging back and forth, getting towards er a gateway, you would up to your knees in mud you know. Erm and it was rather a a and heavy work, you had to have a team of horses to pull a load of suedes and you had to get them in Some you used to to carry out on and just drag them I mean s spread them out on the field er for the store cattle and the sheep. Then you had to bring some into the yard which were put through the scrapper for the dairy cows and the young calves that were housed. And then the the the store cattle they were in big open yards during the nights and then you used to let them out and eat these off er a grass field in Win i in in in in the daytime. And you used to pull them e every four rows, making them into a row. Er throw two and two together into the centre. And the ones you brought into the yard to put through the scrapper, you cut the leaves off. Of courses otherwise that would choke the scrapper. But the one that were carted out on the fields, they were left with the leaves on because the cattle ate the leave as well. W w w w what exactly was the scrapper? Well er there were two they was a slicer and a scrapper. It was a machine which you we had an oil engine in the barn. There was the crusher for grinding the corn and the chaff cutter for chaffing the the the er hay or straw and there was the scrapper. And it had plates inside er it used to cut the the the the into like big chips. Oh right. You had sort of a these eyes on on this big plate and it was turning round and it would be er churning them up you know, cutting them into like big er chip potato chip you know really. Into these log thick chips. And they were there was another er er slicer. There were two blades on that, cutting them into into round slices about oh three quarters of an inch thick. Cutting the that was for for the or the dairy cows. And for the for the young calves you had to scrap them cos they couldn't eat the the the big big thick sl slices for the young calves. How was the slicer powered then? Oh erm with with a We had a er erm a a paraffin driven er a Crossley, a big oil engine with two big flywheels to it and a big piston like a bucket. And then you you used to have a blow lamp to heat it up and after that you you erm put it on half compression and you were turning one of the big flywheels round until it it started and you had to keep the blowlamp on it. That w w w pet th there was no petrol engines then. And er eventually he came er an engine which er there were some which started on petrol and then you turned on to to paraffin but most of the work, just going on petrol, with a plug and a magneto. You used to start that with a handle of course. But er with the the the er the original the the first one, you had to heat it up with a blowlamp and you had to be very very careful to get it just to the right heat, before if you tried to start it too cold, it would kick back and if was too hot again, it just wouldn't start. And that was er Oh it could break your arm you know, this huge big flywheel and you were taking hold of one of the of the of the spokes and turning it, if it were to backfire suddenly, it could break your arm. And on on the other hand, if it started and took off suddenly, it could pull you, you might fall, right on er face into the flywheel again. the safety officers of today, oh they'd have a blue fit if if they saw such things you know . So th this this was a standing engine was it? A standing bit on on a be big concrete base. And then there would be a big, what we called a big shafting, going along the the side of the barn with pulleys on it. And the erm the erm oil engine would be in a little shed outside the barn, and this shafting would be going through the wall. and there'd be two pulleys on that, what we called a loose pulley. And then you had a sort of a gadget what would slide the st there was strap coming from the pulley of the oil engine onto There was a loose pulley and there was a gadget, you could slide the strap onto the loose pulley, then that that was only just er turning loose of course, then you slid it back on the fixed and it's be turning all this shafting along the barn and then there were pulley sets on that and in direct line with crusher and chaff cutter and the scrapping machine you had a a strap form those. Those were fixed as well. Not in concrete of course but er you had erm They were wedged from the the erm Oh there was a a granary above barn, then from the rafters there, you had a big a bit of wood to to wedge them down solid. So they wouldn't move. So there was a sort of clutch, er this sort of sliding Yea o Yes er there was no clutch, only something you could erm it was sort of a forked iron er over the strap, and then you had a a long plank in in above the chaff cutter, that was the most dangerous thing. And then there was an iron bar going from this plank, through the wall, and you could Er then this sort of a a pronged thing that was over the strap, you you could s push it over with that pu pulling the the plank up here. It pushed the strap, from one pulley to another, to the loose pulley or the f fixed pulley on the end of the long shafting. Why was the the chaffer considered the most dangerous then? Well, you had to feed it you know erm Then there was this erm er sort of a whipping in in there was a long trough leading to to the knife and then there were some cogwheels which pulled it into the knife. And should you be careless enough to get your fingers caught in there, well that would be the end, it would draw you in and it would chop your fingers and your arm off in in half inch er bits you know. And then er er but it was this was fixed right above, then you could, reach if you did feel you hand getting caught, you could slide it off and stop the p switch it onto loose pulley immediately. So t So so so there were at least three pieces of machinery that you could run? Yes. Yes. The chaffer, the slicer and the scrapper. Yeah and and and the corn crusher. Oh. For for for grinding the oats. But there were some people you know on a smallish farm, they didn't have an oil engine, then they would have to turn the scrapper by hand. And that was real hard work. Er I saw how they used to do it in the after they'd finished work, used to be at it till till nine or ten that night. And at one time, we used to feed what we called , for the used to chaff some of the the poorest hay and straw and spread it out in a thick layer about oh twelve of fifteen inches high on the floor of the of the barn. And then, scrap the and throw that over. Make it into a a thick layer, and then in a day of so, the juice from the would have soaked into this second class hay and er you used to mix it with a fork and load it into into bags. And when you were carrying it on your back into the sheds for the cattle, the juice would be would be soaking through the bags. Your back would be soaking wet. It was not very healthy food erm we gave up doing that because er as you know cattle, they chew their cud. Well they like to cut their food in their own length, and roll it into balls in their mouth and then they can er regurge it up and chew it. Well with this stuff, they couldn't do that and then they they they their stomach used to get compacted the they they they couldn't er couldn't er get their cud up and caused a lot of stomach trouble. So and they were tempted to eat erm poor stuff which they they wouldn't eat otherwise because there was the juice of the soaked to it. And er that went out of fashion because of the two reasons and the most was because it's it was it would compact in their stomachs, they couldn't lift it up again. Couldn't get their cud up. Oh I see. Yeah. With er this machinery Yes? er were you ever a in a position to sort of to help other farmers er if they wanted their F with the with the corn grinding. Corn grinding slicing or Oh no no just they were bringing the corn to put through the crusher. Right. Er not with the hay or with the . But with with the corn er few people had Then they used to er to bring it over. I I remember er that was the way my father used to get a a bit of pocket money to buy tobacco and things, a shilling a sack and the other farmers they used to find the the biggest sack they could find you know, and cram it with oats and then you used to be after supper. I can remember waking up up about one o'clock in the morning, and to hear this old oil oil engine going, Puff puff, puff puff, puff puff. And the and the whine of the crusher you know, the two plates rubbing against each other. About one o'clock in the morning he'd be at it, getting it ready for the neighbours to collect the following day. For a shilling a bag. U maybe he'd be at it till about two o'clock in the morning. So he would actually do the work himself? Oh yes yes then after after the men had gone to bed of course. I see. And then th that was the his tobacco money. And he was a heavy smoker, an ounce a day. Although it only cost about eightpence ha'penny an ounce then. Mm. Were you involved in in operating this machinery? Yes yes yes when when when I grew older, of course it took all the men When er you know one would b the the whole lot would be going together you know. The erm the the crusher, the hopper was fixed underneath the granary and then there'd be a little trap-door in the floor or a granary, right above and you could er shovel the the corn, the oats down into. Then that would sort of feed itself, but you had to have one man feeding the the scrapping machine and another man with a shovel, pulling away the the the the the the scrapped at the side and then you had to have another man feeding the long hay into the chaff cutter. And another one moving the chaff away to one side. So it took at least four men. Wh when the fo the three machines were going together. Needed at least four men to attend them. So in fact, although they were there to save labour Y y y y y they in fact involved quite a lot A lot of labour yes but that was far far better than to have to turn them by hand you know. That was just slavery. Mm. How long would they all be going? Over what period of time would th would you have all of them going together? You mean, during the day or well it took about an hour say. About two afternoons a week. And how often how often does that go on throughout the year? Throughout the Winter. Yes. Say w when we would used to bring the the stock in at the Menai Bridge Fair, that was the twenty fourth of October. And then you started erm getting food for the chopping and grinding food for them. And that went until they went out in late April. From the end of April to from the end of October to the end of April say. Mm. Can d d d during the Winter, what sort of things would the carter b b b be up to then? Well erm he t in the Spring after you had turned the cattle out, the the sheds you know, the cattle it would be full of manure. Then after you had finished the sowing, that would be the next job. Clearing out all the manure into the er big heap down into the fields where you wanted to spread them next Winter. And then erm, as soon as the threshing was over, before you started ploughing, you'd have two carts going carting this m this manure out and Right shall we Yes start where we the last meeting I guess. Right the last meeting was nineteenth of January last Wednesday. Present were Mark Bob John Andrew . No apologies received. Erm Mark facilitating. And we decided not to record the meeting because we had objections which is fair enough. Coordinator's report. Steve reported on Heworth Green car park demo. He'd been asked to get in touch with Mike for advice. Erm and Mike told us that new reports commi commissioned by the City Council and the new owners claimed there is no danger. Mike said that the chemicals involved were mobile as well as being potent and their ability is a potential explanation for lack of results in the Council's study. There is legitimate concern that the meeting decided that little could be done at this time we might be able to contribute to the campaign at a later stage. Leaflets campa campaign were distributed. Erm to be discussed at a future meeting for Steve to speak on the subject. That's for now. It's being . Erm Secretary's report. The stall is booked for Saturday for the energy conservation bill campaign. Erm and I I've requested an application form from the City Council for a demonstration for the big box pile up on the twelfth of February. Letters have been sent to Hugh about both of these campaigns. The police shelter erm both sets of student greens and Dick and your own candidate erm asking for their help with the big box pile up. Correspondence had been received from the green machine and the secretary was asked to write for more information because we weren't convinced with exactly what they were doing. Erm we'd also received information from the North Yorkshire European erm I've got M Y E C O and I can't remember what the C O stands for. Limited which seemed mostly to involve advertising and but I'd written off and told them their candidate was. We'd received a campaigns update from central office and had registered the big box pile up campaign with that campaign coordinator. We decided to buy twenty letter box stickers which I am to send for and give you the cheque to this end. Treasurer reported that there was no change and then there suddenly was because Andy demanded to be paid for production expenses. So we all got very excited because it was the first money we'd spent for a long time. Membership secretary circulated the latest membership list. John agreed to check that there aren't any more problems with our membership with John at central office just to make sure that we're all sorted. Complications coordinator distributed the postcards that he'd he printed and the S T V voting regulations he was requested to bring on. is on the way. No matters arose from previous minutes. The energy conservation bill. agreed to take to set up and take down the stall and be there for most of the day. Andy agreed to go and help set up and Bob likewise. Mark said he'd get along later on when he could. We decided to use our green ballot box that we made and painted for the Maastricht campaign for people to post their cards into so that we can count them at the end and post them all together. Erm hopefully Terry reported that he'd received a reply to his initial letter about the energy conservation bill. Confusing facilities. Mark shortly to get a L C two computer and suggested that it may be green party especially if we could purchase a suitable printer. petty cash and major postage. Ten pounds was given to forty five Broadway and a donation towards the phone bill. As the secretary's doing a lot of postal work Helen to keep the petty cash tin and present present the book at each meeting for inspection. She was also given a cheque for nineteen pounds to buy a hundred second cla second class stamps for the postcard campaign. The secretary then gave a briefing on the big box pile up campaign. He explained that it was something like new party policy on homelessness and would involve a march into town piling up lots of boxes and collecting signatures on a Valentine type partition to give to Hugh . Under any other business Humphrey challenged ha reported that he had challenged British Nuclear advertising campaign in which they claimed they're going to cause pollution. Erm unfortunately the advertising standards didn't uphold uphold the complaint but at least we made a point. Tasks to carry forward to the next meeting. Helen had to write to Penny erm voicing the all green party's objection to the supporters scheme that the National Party are putting out. Helen was about conference accommodation and John agreed to write to Jean complaining about the miserable letter they're sending out to people who've lapsed. Items to carry on to future agendas included the MacDonalds and affiliation and working with other groups. And the meeting adjourned at nine thirty two. Okay does anybody object to those minutes or are we willing to pass them as a pretty accurate account Well we need to go to the reports first. Yeah? Yeah. He has an officer's report. Yeah. Oh right. No you're right we agreed . The matters arising holds you off the reports. Right oh. So any objections to those minutes? No. Right. the secretary's minutes . Ha you haven't seen the spelling. Coordinator's report please before we have to spell check the minutes. Well staggeringly enough I don't actually have one this week because the only things I have to report are covered at in under energy conservation bill. So unless er anyone has any direct questions for me from the meeting erm Erm can you confirm that we're doing the Green World stuffing? Ah excellent yes yes. That is erm one piece of good news. We've confirmed that we're doing er the mail-out for Green World five. That'll be the weekend of the twelfth thirteenth of February. Erm the pay will be slightly less than last time. Erm but there we go er and everything's under way for that. And erm it should be reasonably light work. We we're keeping it under the first weight bracket er for for cost reasons. And there's there will be about four thousand to do. So same same as before, we'll be coordinating it from forty five Broadway and we'll erm be open house for for volunteers and I'll draw up a rota. Erm we'll we'll go for a couple of social eve evenings but probably the bulk of it will be during the day the er Saturday and Sunday. And that as far as I know is that. That's on behalf of the national party it is? That's right. That Green World is the new national newsletter which took over from news and erm because I'm on the editorial board Right. and I'm the mail-out coordinator we've we've so far mailed out all but one of the of the new magazines and er we didn't do the last one but we're we're scheduling up for doing this one. And it's the sort of I wondered how I wondered how there was a personal message on one of my er Green World . What we tend to do we get bored after the first two thousand and we start writing people letters . Absolutely yeah. Erm and it's a birthday issue and and a quite an important one for setting up for the Euros and the mail action. So there'll be the Great World six will come out just long enough after the May elections to record our victories er as stop press. So er yes . So er this this one is setting everybody up for May and starting the the process for erm for June the the Euros and well to a certain extent we're building up already for any any editor content. So so issue six will come out between the local and the Euro elections? That's right. Just after the er soon after the May elections as as physically possible Mm. with the deadline printing deadlines. Do we have a secretary's report? We do. Erm I haven't heard anything yet erm about the demo form from the erm City Council so I'll give them a boot up their backside because it'll be a week since he said he put it in the post so. So erm so I can't confirm booking for that yet but we do have one more meeting before the big box pile up so not to worry. I wrote to Green Machine. No reply as yet. Erm I ordered and received the letter box stickers this morning. So if anybody wants to buy a letter box sticker now's your chance . The actual size they said . How much did we say in the newsletter? Well we didn't. Erm Oh didn't we? I might be able to find it but I didn't put no I can't Didn't we put it in? No because we didn't have them then and there's another newsletter shortly so Oh alright. Erm And there wasn't space . Erm erm erm okay in that case erm think of a number. No we paid what one pound fifty for We paid ten P each well ten P each plus fifteen P postage. Probably somewhere in the region of twenty P each . No exactly fiftee fifteen P . Fifteen P mm. Yeah but if we charge twenty P each we're actually making a profit selling them. That was the idea. I Well the people who make them sell them for forty P er twenty P rather. I hereby move that we do similarly. Lets. Stack them high and sell them cheap. Erm oh we'll they're going to go for twenty P plus cost of the stamped addressed return envelope Yeah. friend. Which is slightly more than some people do with their money. Erm where are we. Oh yes orders to receive letter box stickers. Erm Lisa is that I'm not quite sure, from the York University student rooms, is in to help us with the big box pile up. And having spoken to her on Saturday when she came along to the energy conservation stall I intend to invite her if it's alright with the meeting to our next meeting which is on the ninth of February to discuss how the Greens can help how the University Greens can help us with that demonstration. And perhaps forge a link you never know. So if that's that's approved I'll give that a tick and so we can bring it up again later. Great. Erm I've also received information on conference accommodation and on the billboards but I've billed those as separate items so that you don't listen to me half off all evening. That's it. Okay. Do we have a treasurer's report in absent here? No he's absent. He's . But I do have something from the membership secretary. Right so that's other officers. membership secretary. Well the membership secretary, if I can remember how to spell it, erm mm has indeed been in touch with erm John who very kindly sent us a free copy of erm their version of our membership list. Which is how we found out that one that we have a new member erm Sally who I'll add on to my list and er send a newsletter to. Also Joan Ian and Mrs Green erm we all thought they joined locally and the national party have no record. It's the same old story. Erm John has suggested that we send their membership on and then that's definitely it. We're now all up to date and we agree with head office and we can take it from here. Erm one minor alteration on that point. I've got a membership card for possibly er previous From January. sort of yeah from the end of January's er You've got six month's free membership don't worry about it. Yeah I wasn't worrying about the six month's free membership. But it does put in rather six months out of phase with the local membership so at least Well John sorted that he's brought you up to date now. Mm. Because you know it's the same thing. I was gonna give the er local party er it'll be sixteen months worth local membership If you want to give us a donation that's entirely welcome. Perfectly acceptable. I'll buy some . I've already bought some yeah. bought some more er So what Joe wanted the meeting to decide is should we ask Mark to send off a cheque for those three people? I think that's the only way to proceed to to sort out this tangle once and for all. Yeah. You see apart from anything else if those people joined through us then we we must make good . And we fixed it. The system's fixed so. Yeah. It it has to be fixed by either us or the national party. We can't ask those people for money if they've already joined once. Okay. Erm I'll get Mark to send a cheque off when he gets back from . Okay is that oh I suppose as as another officer I can er tell you that the the newsletter has indeed been finished and gone out. Erm I would like to apologize on behalf of myself and my proof reading team for the fact that two calls for nominations that erm that are in this newsletter don't actually appear to have closing dates on them. Oh god. Which is a bit of a stupendous cock-up from us At least on my part I'm, if I had my engineer's hat on I'd er blame the proof reading team as well. But er I suppose really I er Well you forgot to read it because you threw coffee over me. I suppose the blame is at least almost entirely mine. If not entirely mine. So I I would like to ask the meeting whether erm I suppose technically for advice on this topic. think we can get away with putting out another newsletter on the seventh of February with a ballot in it anyway for these two things even though we didn't Yes. I think so. I I mean er I doubt whether we'll we'll have a full slate in February anyway so I mean they'll probably be the option for people to come in later and we'll probably end up co-opting people later and er I think we should Yeah alright. I'm pleased you think that because it gets me off the hook now. I think that because I don't think people wait until the deadline to er respond anyway. Helen? Erm I think technically we're actually constitutional because it doesn't say anything in the constitution about us having to publish the deadline. It just says that we have to make the the call for nominations so long before we put out the selection ballot. So they can do it from they can work it out for themselves actually . briefing. Ah so so it's alright. So everybody who got the newsletter when they read it should have thought, Aha best look up I'm sorry my copy of the constitution that I filed away so neatly when I received that months ago. I think perhaps an apology and erm and an in er the next newsletter might be appropriate for. Otherwise we'll phoning us up and complaining . You'll probably be ringing people up anyway trying to get them to understand. Yes I agree entirely. I don't think people are going to be disappointed if they miss out . Great. Otherwise I if it's appropriate I'll say it looks like a great newsletter. Yeah. Right on the newsletter front the other thing is the next newsletter we said would go in the post by the seventh of February. Which is actually two days before we next have a meeting which means I'm gonna have to slap another one together in a big hurry. So I'm collecting things to go in it. Er those things should include well something about the box erm next next day or whatever I can find . Details of about where and when. I've got a thing from Steve about erm planning permission or application for Sizewell C that I didn't have room for in this newsletter. Right. He wrote it and handed it to me for this newsletter and I ran out of space. Could put the green councillors ten reasons to be one in I suppose. Yes Oh yes definitely . Anything to fit . It will depend what the space situation is. A nice grovel can go in. Advert for the letter box sticker. want stuff or is it contact through the office to . Yes. Unless you have unless you have supplied a specific date. Erm if you like I can provide a a specific spiel. Seeing as it is the you know the birthday edition. It will it is quite nice er make a thing of it. I think also if we could have some sort of timings when people could turn up. Yes sure. Okay I'll knock those up and I'll have to run that by my household. Mm yeah. So when do you need those by then? Erm er middle of next week I suppose roughly . Okay. I would say next meeting is at it's the one time we're going to have one. Erm and do we have anything else to go in this newsletter? Erm I could keep one in the green Eurobonds advert. Yep Yeah. certainly. Fine idea. And if anybody thinks of any more diary dates or anything. Yeah I'll let you know. I think there might be a I've got one announcement you can put from that. Again if I collect more material than I have to use no problem. Got an item on media watch there did anyone notice that the Green Party was actually mentioned in the Guardian today? No. Quite a celebration. Wow. About two lines commenting on the Government's erm you know growing strategy. Documents that they put out yesterday. Mm the most we've had for months. I know absolutely. Wow. First mention I've actually seen in months. Do we put I wonder who statement for that? That's not mine . Right er well I think I've probably finished apologizing for what I did write in the newsletter erm Thank you for getting it out so quick Andy No problem I'm sure. In future I'll try both to get the dates that are supposed to be in in there and get the copy into my mouth rather than my compatriots. Okay do we have any other matters arising from the minutes? Because I do. I've decided that this isn't any other business at all. I've got a picture of Hugh. Have you? Yeah I've got a picture of Hugh with one end of a decontaminate poster. Yeah. Because er he was down there er trying to dip his nose in the toxic chemicals. Down at Heworth when we were getting er postcards filled in. Our neighbour's looking . I think you can have a rest after campaign. Erm. Do you know what this is about? Heworth Green. Yeah I've read about it. According to this thing in the paper they er had a hundred and thirty people. Mm. And er Hundred and thirty! Well that's what is says there . You could quite a lot don't they? Protestors were joined by York MP Hugh Bailey and City Councillors as they gathered at Heworth on Saturday. Erm I'm surprised that slightly surprised that with council and Hugh were willing to go down given what we had given our information about how dangerous or not the site actually is. That it's not very nice but it's er I didn't know Heworth was gonna be that Yes. until it mentioned They're also apparently with ill health and amongst people living in the surrounding area. Whether there's any truth in this is and the A A E who did the er survey include Atomic Energy Authority who who's like that as well. Right okay. I think we must have missed a briefing from Must must have done. Might might be the one when you were away. Right well there's a nice er we did get in the paper. We did. Mm. Right any tasks to carry forward? Well erm Steve asked to write letters to to Penny . I don't know whether Jean got John to have written to Jean or not. I think he might have done but he didn't say. Erm apart from that I think we've done everything this week. Can you just quick quickly fill me in on what this letter to Penny is? It was about the supporters' campaign in the last Yeah. there's an article about erm where is it here somewhere . It's basically offering people erm rather than becoming members they can become a supporter for five pounds a year of the Green Party for which they get three shortened up beat newsletters and this week it was two sides of A four. Together with two further appeal letters. I've just noticed she actually uses the sentence being a Green Party supporter isn't meant to appeal to everyone. Erm and the meeting felt that it asks it asks for for views from local parties and we felt that the amount of money they're gonna make you're gonna spend nearly a fiver sending all that out to people and really we should be encouraging people to be members and not to just give us money from time to time. And in my own role as as the as being on the editorial board of the newsletter erm we need all the effort that we can going in into that really. There's some justification for having Green Link as a separate publication but even that is is under question in the coming twelve months because our circulation just doesn't warrant all of these publications. There there we can barely sustain Green World at the moment. So erm having an extra network and all of the administration that goes with it seems very much a waste of time especially when it creates another tier of of sort of quasar membership. Funny business. So er we've gotta sort of Object. we don't think this is a very good idea seeing as she's asked. Okay erm can we move on. Conference accommodation and finance. Right erm. As requested I wrote and asked about self-catering accommodation at the conference and I received a reply saying that there's one house that erm she's come across that she thinks might be particularly suitable for us. It's a house for for, where are we, for six people. In other words it sleeps six erm and the landlady's willing to have one person sleeping on the floor officially. slot more people in appropriate. Erm two single bedrooms and two double bedrooms plus a living room all facilities erm except for sheets and towels. Which we'd have to take. What no sheep? No sheep no. Erm it would cost for the four for the four nights of the con conference, that's from the Wednesday night to the Saturday night inclusive, six pounds a night each will almost cover the cost and we've fitted in an extra person on the floor at three pounds a night that would clear the cost completely. And she said to let her know straight away if we think it might be suitable. Erm Steve and Mark and I are definitely interested so that's three people so we're looking for another three people to share. Bearing in mind that if we do have the whole house then people are only coming for a few days or or even one night could no they had somewhere to stay. Erm and along with this we were thinking about ways to subsidize conference for people and this might be one way to do it for the for York Green Party to pay part of the cost of renting the accommodation. Erm on the understanding that for any Green Party members that want to use it over the conference. That's just a proposal it's an idea. So there you go. How many people have said that they're going so far? Well er me and Steve and Mark and you you're going Yeah. too aren't you? So that's four of us definitely going to. Erm Alison says she'd like to but her you know it depends on this that and the other. Yeah. I I'm definitely going to I picked this up from the information places. It's got all a list of all sort of bed and breakfasts and Oh. holiday flats and things. And the holiday flats in here are quite expensive. But bed and breakfast are all very cheap. Erm you know. Where whereabouts is this is it? I don't know she didn't say. Didn't that's one thing I don't know . Cos if it's two or three miles away it's gonna be a bit of a problem. Yes that's right. Erm I I need to check that. How how much erm are the B and Bs? Well quite cheap. I mean about ten pound is the cheapest and perhaps even twelve . The the extra advantage of the of the house would be cooking which we may get. Because if if people took advantage of the of these facilities it would make the whole business an awful lot cheaper for them. And if there's four of us there definitely then that's we only each have to cook once while we're there. Yeah. to get out of conference to go to cook. If it's close. Yeah. If fact it's it's I found it in the past to be a welcome very welcome break from the atmosphere because you can't hang around in in the dining hall without talking a Green Party. As I remember it conference tends to run through until new clients so. Not really. So long as we're talking about sort of half a mile away ma maximum or with other sort of proper travelling arrangements. If it's half less than half a mile away then it's it's fine but if not it starts to becoming problematical. The other thing about financing it. So I haven't done the sums in my head. How much is it actually to get a place? Well if it's six pounds for six people that's thirty six pounds a night isn't it? For four nights Plus three Plus a bit. So it's about forty quid a night and there's Thursday Friday Saturday Sunday. It's four nights. So that's that sounds quite a lot to ask the political party Oh I wouldn't ask them to pay Yeah. That would be too much. But it's one way of distributing any money that the party wants to give to subsidize people so that everybody can benefit from it erm rather than means testing. I'm happy as long as we we get the definite six people definite. We I think you know we can do go into just four four people . I I'm quite happy to come in on it. I think I probably would like a single room though. Are there two single rooms? Two single and two double. Yeah well on a first come first serve basis a single room I'd come in on it . Well strangely enough I think we'll have to have double rooms . Well if if we do only get four people it's going to be more isn't it? Yeah. It's going to be ten pounds a night each Yes erm. roughly and you don't get breakfast thrown in. No that's right. I I would hope to be able to party conference probably only which would mean turning up either Friday night or Saturday morning. So potentially two nights out of the four. Does it have an address Helen? No it's through erm Right I just wondered if she gave you an address cos it you know got a super little town map here. If I was being cynical I'd volunteer Mark's car to get people to and from the town. If it was a long way out. Well he said that was a possibility but I really so. But then again . Erm but then it starts getting very very silly. I mean this is basically she's she already books some flats and house a house because self-catering accommodation's in such short supply because of long lets over the winter. Do we need to proceed on this now. Do we need to see if we can draw up an extra . I think one of the ideas behind the the party chipping in on this is because it would be extremely convenient for people who are popping in at the last minute for Mm. for a night or two to have somewhere that they know they can at least kip on the floor. Where you know so as not to have to risk going having to go to an expensive B and B because all the cheap places have gone. So to a certain extent the idea was to that if we had the thing worked out it would be of great benefit to the people who were popping by. Erm whereas at this stage the four of us could probably find accommodation which wasn't that much more expensive erm but to have the actual focus for the for the local party . Could we have people to pay the six pound a night and erm you know a hundred and forty four to start with and just ask people to pay the six pound a night anyway and just get as much back as we can? Yeah yeah. Cos six pound a night isn't bad. It's less than we pay in Wolverhampton . Oh it's very reasonable yes. It would be possible I suppose with the commitment of people for the local party to make on the committee. I mean I have a couple of ideas. I was going to ask Mike if he wants to come as an observer because he's never been to conference and erm And when it comes he was talking about spending a weekend with us anyway so it might be nice thing to do. When it comes to that though there will be people from other green parties who who'll be looking for accommodation so at the last minute we can Dick for example. Yeah. We're hoping that we'll If he's coming he might like to be to be There's a good chance of filling most rooms most nights I would have thought. Well shall I ring Joyce back and say providing it's close erm we'll have it and take it from there. Okay. Oh I haven't written . Shall I alert Dick to its existence then? Yes I think that would be that would be a nice thing to do. Cos that would be a nice definite. Okay. I'll make a decision when I'm in a position to . Well this is why it would be a good idea to so people will have to decide in advance and just see how we go for Do you have to send off a deposit or anything? I'll find out when I ring and she'll . If I do I'll be ringing round frantically find out what to do . I would suggest that given the decision we prepared to make now even if you have to send a deposit get the local party to stump up the deposit and collect the money as soon as convenient from the people who are committed to going. Is that agreed with all of you here. Sure mm. Since the local party's going to cover the shortfall anyway if there one. Okay. she'll be subletting rooms to people. Slum land for the Green Party . . Right is that erm. Okay presumably I should put something again in the newsletter about conference and this accommodation thing. Yeah. Yeah it it means that you can point out that it makes it a lot simpler for someone to just pop over for a night and crash out on the floor. Are you coming to conference at all. No I won't be er my family situation can change so. Oh. Don't have to do things like erm . We can always run a little creche actually for nanny from Scarborough got a baby as well. Give over one of the rooms to people . When is it? It's er the first weekend in March. Anyway shall we Okay shall we move on. Do you want to tell us all about the stall for for the energy conservation bill? Certainly. Yeah the stall was extremely successful. We kicked off at eleven and went on till three and there were I think six people stuffing er in the course of the day Bob Andy Mark and myself and Chris . A late showing from the man himself. And erm I was particularly pleased to get Chris along because he was extremely effective. Erm what we were doing was filling in these these postcards asking MPs to turn up on February the fourth to support the energy conservation bill when it has its er second reading in Parliament. And erm it was ex ex it was great having Chris along because erm he went out and grabbed everybody in the street, pulled them in onto the stall and er and got them got them to sign on the dotted line so to speak. Er he came along after the the Heworth Green er demonstration. Which he described incidentally as a bit of a damp . And they all they all ran away very soon after the press left. So so he came along and did some work for us. Apart from that erm the scores on the doors forty six postcards were sent out which doesn't sound perhaps like very many but is in fact quite a lot of work when you're having to find people who's who people's MPs are for them and so on. And we were we covered sixteen different MPs which is especially good news because Hugh Bailey normally supports the bill and as far as we know is likely to turn up and and vote for it. But getting out to MPs like erm John Prescott the energy spokesperson for the Labour Party and so on. And John Gummer. John Gummer right yeah. Lots of people who are marginal erm we don't know erm ourselves if if they're intending. So this might help tip the balance. And because in with it it's a national campaign. It's er it's all all to the good. And so it's keeping up the the good work that's of of lobbying MPs to such a degree that they they've got to back it which is what's brought it to its second reading as one of the most popular er private member's bills in history. Erm we received eleven pounds eighty seven in donations. Er the cost of stamps was eight pounds seventy four and therefore our profit profit was three pounds thirteen pence . Not bad for somebody who thought it was going to cost us money . So people gave us money for the stamps that we put on and other people gave us donations. All round erm it was great. We had our presence. It's a very effective direct piece of lobbying and at a time when a lot of people who obviously weren't Green Party supporters behind the campaign. The cross party campaign for the for the bill which we've written. So. the only political party ever to have two pieces of legislation in the House of Commons without having any M Ps. I'd just like to second that it was a good day and also to point out as the er man who made the postcards we shouldn't get too excited about this as a money making scheme. Because most of that three pounds thirteen's probably been paid for out hundreds of sheets of cardboard. So. But considering considering we were we were Didn't make a loss. I held ten fifteen pounds for the privilege. relation thing. Every time I do a stall I I quake in my boots up until I do it and then I feel great when we're doing it and afterwards realize that it's been productive and we we've had a good lot a good response from the public. So there we go. Helen do you want to tell us about the next stage? Yes. Seeing as we all filled in our postcards ages ago we can write some more letters this week. Or tomorrow. I can give you a list of people to to write to. First of all there's Robert Atkins M P. This is the man who erm replaced erm Mr Yeo Oh yes. with his trousers down. Now I think erm Ron was a bit upset because he spent most of of Christmas sending Christmas cards and saying, Please please let this bill go through don't give it any . And he said, Oh alright then what's your wife like. Erm however No that's right. Erm Tim erm you know having desi have design?resigned he was followed by Robert Atkins MP for South Riddle. Now Mr Atkins former job is as Minister in Northern Ireland so he's unlikely to know a lot about what was going on in the in the Commons at the end of last session which is a bit unfortunate. He's been hiding under a under an agreement. He should at least be a very effective man. Well it's important to get his support so that's one person that we can write to to erm seek support. That's Robert Atkins M P. What what Also is his actual title? Sorry to butt in. He's the Secretary of State for Energy or Minister for Energy Minister yes sure. Secretary of State for the Environment wasn't it? Minister for the Environment. It's Gummer isn't it? No I'll come to that in a minute. Oh. Gummer is the Secretary of State. Yes. And he's an expert on all this. John Gummer Secretary, oh he sent two postcards to you from his constituents. Erm Secretary of State for the Environment and Robert G Hughes who's the Environment Whip. But it's important that you get Robert G Hughes and not Robert Hughes who is Labour MP for Aberdeen. So Aberdeen North I take it? Yeah. So that's Robert G Hughes MP for Harr Do you know his his Harrow East. He's Environment Whip. Yeah. There are more. Right I want But I think realistically that's probably enough work for all of us for the rest of the week . And John Gummer was Secretary of State for the Environment. Right. Because I've already written to Atkins cos that's in the newsletter. Yeah. So he's Secretary of State. I'm asking the people round the table to write these extra couple of letters because we must be activists because we're here by definition. And so we're likely to I think if I put the whole list in the newsletter it might have put people off. Yeah. Erm Yes is it all about this any more in the newsletter next newsletter? No because I think by the end well unless something dramatic happens on the fourth of February which is this Friday next Friday rather. If it does I'll be on to you straight on the phone. But otherwise I I don't expect to need any more work on this for this Friday. Yeah. But we ought to have something about having a second reading in it anyway Oh of course yes. because it's news. Yes indeed. Even if it's stop press. probably getting tight for Monday the seventh anyway. Brilliant. On a point of information Helen what can happen on on this second reading if Right I can I I can tell you. Erm there'll be a whole a whole day's debate on the bill which is an achievement in itself. At the end of which a number of things can happen. Firstly the bill can go through on the nod with no note. This is possible with ballot laws is now ballot bill. But we can't rely on it. It's quite possible that some MPs will try and talk the bill out. That is try and ensure that when the House rises at two thirty P M the debate on the bill is still in progress. And if that happened the bill automatically falls unless we can move the closure of the debate. Now this means that the sponsor of the bill, Allan ,brothers,pro proposes that the debate be closed and the bill be given a second reading. In this case we must not only win the vote but we must have a hundred MPs in the House to vote for the closure. With me so far? Mm. But not all of those hundred must vote for the must vote for the closure there must be a hundred people there to take part in the vote is that right? No. It is no good putting a closure vote by ninety nine to one or even ninety nine to nought. The objector cunningly doesn't vote. We must have a hundred MPs voting for the closure. All of it ah right okay. So we need a hundred present. Which is where on a Friday afternoon. But if if everybody else around the country has been lobbying as hard we have there's a good chance. After all there's three hundred and three hundred and however many was yes three hundred and sixty MPs who supported it. Three hundred and twenty seven put their name to an easy end. So out of those we should be able to manage a hundred surely. The other thing is if we're successful with Atkins if he's behind the bill the MPs are unlikely to talk it out. They'll accept it and put send it through on the nod if we can get his support. So he's crucial. Why is the Whip so important? Because surely he's just enforcing the Minister's policy. Erm yes. But these people get together. Right. I mean it's not as if Robert Atkins making all the decisions. Three hundred people say hang round the bar and say,conservation board I've had lots of letters, well so have I, we'll get get through them they might cause trouble. That that's the plan. Well go for democracy the decision being you know for the country being taken by three Tories rather than Well that's right yes rather than one. Well they don't ask John Major of course. . They can tell John Major . So why I'm I'm slightly puzzled as to why Robert Atkins is actually more important than John Selwyn Gummer? I mean Because I'm because John Gummer's responsibilities extend a long way into things like housing and stuff as well don't they? Whereas Robert Atkins has more specific responsibility perhaps for getting this area. People of one I don't know that's what I imagine. people of one of the environment and the other's Secretary of State for the Environment. Yeah. Fair enough. It's just bizarre rules of procedure. There are more Ministers of State that there are Secretaries of State. Yeah. To be honest I think we should be grateful they don't have to have the court magician come in Wave their wand and recite the Lords Prayer. Fair enough. I assumed there would be a reason assume there was going to be a good reason. Erm so who else was on your list of people we ought to write to South East Cambridgeshire who's the Parl Parliamentary Secretary to John Gummer. Who's the sorry your and I can't Sorry. Erm Garry was Robert Atkins Parliamentary Private Secretary. And And And James Paice P A I C E P A I C E Yes. Of MP for South East Cambridgeshire and he's P P S to John Gummer. and these people are erm unpaid helpers to Ministers and Secretaries of State it says here. Unpaid. So They're they're the eyes and ears of their boss and they have to report any political pressure so we have to find something for them to report basically. I I wrote to Atkins saying as Minister for the Environment er, Please support the energy conversation bill because it's dead good. Presumably I can also write to John Gummer saying is dead good. Am I right to write to the others saying I or should Oh yeah. I write to Gerry saying say, Please prod Robert Atkins and remind him that the energy conservation bill's dead good in case he's forgotten. Erm no I think the former I think the Parliamentary But I can write to him in his capacity as Robert Atkins' Parliamentary Private Secretary. Yes. Cos otherwise it looks like writing to random M Ps. I think you're sort of drawing drawing their attention to the public concern over that sort of phrase. And widespread cross party support. Yes. Honest guv. wishy-washy statements for your audience. I presume getting letters out is more important than high quality prose here is it? Oh yes. Just a couple Cos I mean of lines will do. name name dropping the supporters I mean for to those Tories telling them that the that the association for county councils for example is a backer probably counts more than telling them that that is a backer . Yeah well I think particularly or green particularly doing their own I just take the letters I've already written to other people change one sentence and change the er name on That's fine so comrade. Printed off on my er employer's er computer and er put it in one of their envelopes and try to steal a stamp from them. We're gonna get it all down Andy don't worry. How wide is the Green Party's main bill associated with do you think? Well in the main lobbyist has been Ron who's the who's our elected campaigns officers and he's quite literally been spending time treading the the hallowed halls of Westminster I mean in the media. In the media I mean I haven't seen much about it in the media. Er Well when when it was first read by erm it was mentioned that it had been written by the Green Party by radio four and the Guardian and the Independent. And as far as I know that's the only coverage I've seen personally of it. Well I s I saw an article in erm the Green Alliance, a fairly shadowy organization , er mentioned in their newsletter. It was it was erm promoted by the association of conservation of energy. Mhm. So I rang them up . But that's yeah I haven't seen much. Yeah it's supported by the Well no they said they said prepared by er Oh right. What is the Green Alliance? I don't really know. I don't know who they get their money from but they. I mean they used to provide the advisor to various secretaries of state I think didn't they? Ooh I don't know who they are really. They send out this newsletter anyway. But I mean the main the main I mean in it in certain quarters we've been down playing that aspect of it simply to get it through. Sure. But er all of the main organizations that have you know World Wide and Greenpeace and Friends of the Earth and so on and Age Concern. They all know they were all told that it's it's all a bit above board. But in promoting it to MPs we've been drawing their attention to the kinds of organizations which in turn in their eyes just sort of represent that pyramid or structure of votes that . And of course when it goes through they already have our our as it were Yeah. With a bit of luck and careful handling. And the MPs who who asked to put it forward including Alan they they had to you know they came to Ron to ask, Can we put your bill forward. They all know Ron anyway . He's a very old hand in lobbying er which shows it's how it's we've got it this far. Mm. Because he's known this labyrinth rubbish that they cling to. Okay shall we move on to billboards? Mm. Before we get bogged down. I haven't received the samples, er oh sorry I I'll moving on to what we're talking about. The National Party are mounting a poster campaign for the elections. For both elections which hope hopefully covers the Euros and the er locals starting at the beginning er towards the end of the local election campaign to running through to the June. And they said erm if you would like to see the designs write and ask for a sample so we wrote and I haven't actually received any samples yet. But I have had a letter erm explaining where the billboards are in our area and how much they cost. It's a very badly written letter actually. For one thing it starts,Dear Mrs Knightingale which got my back up. Erm and then it goes on to say,Please find the enclosed the postal sites available in your area Miriam who's the Green Party person who's organizing it has provided the required areas and if you need any more details please don't hesitate to call me or my secretary. And under the sites may also availability at the time of booking. I look forward to hearing from you with your selections . But introductory letter aside erm interesting. Can I just get clarification here? Yes. That letter almost sounds like we us around this table are expected to choose some of the sites. Yeah. We didn't just write for information as to what National Parties Erm well I just wrote Miriam and said, I saw your article in Green Week can you send me further details. And this is what's happened so. What it transpires is local parties who are interested enough get what's Yeah. get to try and choose site. Right. Erm now then it gives us a erm a price here which I think is weekly. Because the availability columns are weekly so it makes sense that the price means weekly. Erm and it has a number of different types W and F . But if I run through the addresses I think it'll make sense because everybody will recognize where they are. Erm in York Holgate Road which is twelve pounds a week. Hundred and ten Fishergate which I think is the side of Jacksons that's fifteen pounds a week. Erm in fact there's two there. East Parade eighteen pounds a week. Tang Hall Lane eighteen pounds. Another one at Holgate Road fifteen erm York Road Acomb twenty. Walmgate twelve pounds and Hull Road twelve pounds. Er Fulford Road eighteen pounds. Presto Main Street Haxby eighteen pounds. Another couple at Acomb for twenty pounds and then they also give just a cost for Ripon and Scarborough. So I don't know about anybody else but that's cheaper than I expected it to be. Yes absolutely. And the fact that they're several in Fulford that I'd say are very good sites. I always read them erm when I about Fulford . At Fulford Road or Fishergate would be the best one to go for. Yes. Are these the sort of the like to the end of bus stops? Well from what I can gather the cheaper one on Fishergate is a bus stop size one. There's one actually at the bus stop by the Police Station and there's another one on the corner of the erm just before you turn into Terrace there's there's a free standing one outside the shop there. And I think the eighteen pound one is probably the big one on the side of Jacksons building. Erm actually high up you know full size billboard. Which I'd say is less useful in fact than the little ones. I think the little ones might noticed. Cos I mean I all whenever I'm going travelling into into York and they've changed that billboard I always look at it. Yeah. People in cars will notice the big one a lot better . Yeah that's true. Which is our target audience Obviously yes. wait at bus stops. Right could be a policy decision this couldn't it? Anyway I suppose before we decide we really need to know how much the National Party are going to charge us if anything for the actual posters and what the posters look like. Yeah. And how many posters they what size and shape of posters they're doing which will affect which site of course. That's right. no good. So I'll give The erm type thing means what means little codes mean or does that give us any indication as to what these sites are? No there isn't a key unfortunately. Oh. I'll tell you now if the poster says Labour isn't working I'm not having it. Yeah what which is the nearest one to a Conservative Club? Cos there's a Conservative Club down in Fishergate isn't there They actually own the one on the side of the Conservative building I thought. Or they thought they did until it always says Conservative propaganda on the sides so I think that's a gonna . It's it's on a little table at the end which says rate card analysis and it had T V areas Yorkshire T V North East T V and then principle main secondary local corner shop other and totals numbers in the middle . Anybody got any suggestions on that ? Will we pay the cost of the poster site? Is this your understand as well as the cost of the poster? I think so. Well I think what they suggest to me that we have to pay for the poster site. Whether or not the Green Party then supplies the posters I wouldn't like to say. Right so it's not just that the National Party want the people on the ground to choose the nice addresses. Well that's the I think it's clear that the money's coming from from the local parties. What they're ac what they're trying to do is coordinate enough local parties with the same poster that they can make a block booking I would have thought. This might be a good way of raising funds by asking people particularly for the Euros I think. Why don't you sponsor you know, members who don't normally come to meetings, to sponsor erm a site for Yeah. I think a lot of people would be willing to do that. Erm make a big splash in the newsletter, Please sponsor your your Green Party poster for the elections. Doing this this is one erm campaign that as a small proportion of the poster sites is it? It looks that way yeah. There must be lots of other . I mean this they must have got my name through Miriam so they must already have worked out the they were working Right. Okay are you willing to go away and Yeah I think I need to talk to Miriam again don't I. Unfortunately I don't have a phone number I only have an address. But I'll write her a postcard to say, Yes it looks quite interesting when can we see the samples and can you tell us more about how the money works. Yeah and confirm that that isn't a daily price. I think that I'll have to confirm with the company. Yes. But it just just seems suspiciously cheap. That twelve Well I mean it's not the huge massive billboards. I mean if they're just sort of four foot things I mean it's not you know I think. Yeah perhaps. Anyway that's really into this idea. Especially Bob's suggestion of calling for people to sponsor Sponsor sponsor a poster. Erm should I at least be prepared to again stick something in the newsletter about . As you say it's the sort of thing that might appeal to people because then they can go and look at their poster. Be photographed next to it. What do you think? We could always do posting on the side of the Conservative building. Your direct your direct action at home. Yes well come and visit you in prison. Right does that cover billboards? Yep. no that was a good agenda item just got silly. Okay. Who wanted to talk about affiliation stroke working with other groups? This is something we said we were going to discuss at a time in the future and I thought I'd stick it on and see how much time we'd got left. Right. Well we've got twenty five minutes at present shall we can you just wipe around a couple of other things and then we'll come back to that if time remains? Yes do. Okay. Right intro leaflet. Do I hear apathy? Or directions? Erm I think Neil might benefit from knowing what the intro leaflet is. Right well we call it an intro leaflet because we like misleading agenda items mostly. What we actually mean is a sort of mini manifesto introduction to the Green Party booklet sixteen pages or so. Oh yeah it's gone back to being a leaflet it was a booklet last week . Yes yeah. Yes so what we mean is an intro booklet sort of A five sixteen or so pages covering ten or fifteen sort of major Green Party policy areas. Mm. Er the idea was we'd be able to sell it to people or give it to people depending on whether they had any money or not I suppose by the Green Party. If we were really lucky we'd be able to go to conference and try and sell hundreds of them to other Green Parties who might want to do the same. So we a number of us went away with lists of topics that we were going to write erm two hundred and fifty or so words about. And we went away clutching bits of and similar document and things like that. Erm and so far well I'm certainly willing to confess that I took these away full of good intentions and have have so far carried around this torn up copy of the Greater London Green Party for months. Have they not done similar such publications knocking about the Green Party like catalogues for Well we we had our own local manifesto before and the idea, well in in practical terms it was extremely detailed and erm each rewrite was was a very big exercise and just photocopying er it was an extremely large booklet. So we thought essentially really we're slimming down our own local manifesto. Right. Where and actually sort of rather than saying this is our manifesto and you know our policy promises it's lacking excitement on our general policy. It's also generalizing beyond local council issues. Mm. Local manifesto tends to be tied to and attempting to remain more timeless that one or two Yeah more to sort of statements of principles rather than just a policy so it lasts a bit. And I wrote my section. I'd just like to make this perfectly clear that I did write a draft for work and leisure. And I even had added colours on this copy. Yeah and I hope they weren't too harsh. They were written while I was on a train and probably in a bad mood. I didn't didn't get the opportunity to explain to you the joke beside behind your writing don't use contractions in written material. Which is perfectly fair comment except that you've used a contraction. I knew I'd used a contraction you know . So It does say draft actually. Yeah I know. I use contractions in the newsletter some times which is deliberately honest. It's like saying avoid cliches like the plague. I mean I I'd having been these comments and yes there are a couple of extra points put in there I think that that's fine. It's nice to get some of it done. What about the rest of you lads? Well as soon as I have a window in my diary which I'm not We'll let you off with the newsletter. contribution it is said. Alright I'll I'll undertake to to come up with something for our next meeting. I mean all I I didn't I just did exactly what I was told. I put brought out a list of points. There's no grammar in there. There's contractions all over the place because erm and all sorts. I even used numbers instead of writing them out in full verse. So erm You can minute me and I'll erm Did you use any semicolons? Probably put a split infinitive as well. Well I've got the checking erm. Right so Steve is undertaking to be the next brave soldier to write something for I don't know what I'm doing. The general We have to be very busy. I mean this this this item has actually been deferred two meetings and Mm. Yeah. We'll just been too busy. Then I'll try and get something if I get time but. Okay Still I suppose the time's it's the actual the calendar's starting to tick for having this isn't it now. Yeah if we're actually ever gonna make use of it we will, joking aside, have to try and get something . Well after after the big box pile up I'm I'm free on the Green Party. And then the elections and then get our act together. I don't think we need to be too sorry at the reason we're not getting it written is we're far too busy lobbying MPs and making protests in the centre of town and things. So it's probably good rather On balance. Right. Any other business? I've got a couple of things. Do we have nominations for conference reps and local election candidates? Because these will need to go in the selection ballot in the newsletter what I am going to write. Oh er you mean from people here? Well Yes? Or I mean the flood of phone calls that have no doubt saved the erm Green Party . Oh I'd I'd like to be a a delegate at conference but I can't be a candidate this year cos I'm captain of my and I think I'll be a bit busy anyway to be honest doing press work. It would be nice to have a break from doing it. Right. Anybody wish to be put forward as conference attender? The number is unlimited is it? Yeah. Yeah. We have three voting certificates but you can pass them around It's a shared job. Yeah. Oh might as well then. You just have to be approved by the that's all. Yeah I'll do that thing. Right so that's got three so far and I mean I think if you're not sure whether you want whether you'll be able to go I mean you can still you can still be a delegate then if you do go then you're able to vote so. So you'd like to be put down on the ballot to be approved do you? Doesn't mean you have to go. Just means that if you do go you Right I I that's fine yes I'll You see it makes it easier for us as well because it means that if you do if you are there we can leave you in charge for ten minutes while Presumably Mark will run? Yeah I would think so. I'll tell him to give you a ring if it's Yeah right I'll put him down with a question mark. Oh it's nice to see people to see a good list of people who are going. And I could put myself down as in case I get there for a day or two. And for candidates erm yeah I'll I'll stand I'll have to bite the boys again. Yeah. Talking of standing did did we ever make any progress on Fishergate? We haven't got anybody. John hasn't come back to us. No. Erm John said he informed me he he'd stand for Monk again and he I told him to write write a . John 's Monk. Presumably in the selection ballot we don't have to I think we do have We can have su suggested But we don't wards. But we don't definitely have to sign people. Er so you were Clifton. Which is erm Bill That's Clifton. That's Clifton. I I'm certainly interested I'm quite interested in Bishop Hill unless anybody else wants it. Erm again I mean I'm happy to give that if there's someone actually living in Bishop who wants it but erm I've got erm some someone who lives there wanted me to stand in. Good reason to er. Do you have any Not at this time. I guess I can stand somewhere. Well that's got the ball rolling. Erm and if anybody runs into anybody else and can ask them or anything if there isn't actually an army of er sort of letters coming through your door saying yes yes make me a candidate. Just to remind everybody that we've decided that this year we weren't going to put pressure on people. Because it just took so much of our energy last time helping people fill in forms and everything. If people aren't comfortable enough to volunteer. I mean obviously if for example didn't ring up and say I want to sign your name your name tomorrow, I'd ring her up to see whether she'd lost her mind or something . Because you know she usually does. She's actually got er terrible flu. But I'm going round to see her next weekend. Yeah but you know what I mean. If it's somebody who we really expect to stand then by all means then chase them up. But I don't want to go around looking for candidates like we did last time. Because it's erm it just takes too much energy away. Right. And if we haven't got a full slate well I mean looking at that list we're doing quite well. Yeah. So would you be likely to speak to John saying again wouldn't like to pressure Jean again but think John would like to I'm sure John would. Erm I shall ring him and ask him make sure he's I'll try and ask . So have we taken a decision to target Bishopgate then? Yeah. It's five for the next five years. It's quite a commitment. So we're looking for the ideal candidate. Yep. This is before anybody gets any ideas at all. And the the reasons for it is because we're it's the sort of by far the most solid concentration of our our actual members and likely supporters. I used to live down there towards one part of that. Yeah. So it's all it's from that time on it's . I'd like to get that back again if we could. But we really need a candidate and there isn't anybody erm obvious who's in a position to do it unfortunately. Fishergate this year? Mm. Yes. Yes he does he lives in . That's in Fishergate isn't it? That's very true. Must be an experienced person. I don't know cold candidate. No. Yeah the main difficulty is in is in the time period because it's it's quite likely that I mean I'd we'd been we'd been hoping that the target candidate could put in a reasonable amount of personal commitment to to the campaign. Other and if it wasn't for for me doing a course next year which would probably preclude me from doing that, I'd be quite interested. But I haven't got I couldn't at this stage say I could do a tap next year. Even the year afterwards may be not. Well shall I ask Humphrey whether he's Worth sounding him out. Ask ask him if he'd like to do it. We'll come back to you if we can't find somebody who's got more time I guess. Okay that sort of covers I think what I need to know for for election stuff. Because we've said we're gonna have a selection ballot. Right. Erm another thing I noted under any other business is green strategy document. This Government one. I mean this might not be a good time to chat about it. I it's just that I remember on Monday morning hearing on the radio that it was being talked about that afternoon and of course immediately forgot to go and get a copy of the next day's Guardian and read about it and all the other It's today's Guardian. It's today's Guardian. I've got it I've got it at home I can bring it in at the next meeting or whatever. That would be good. Or drop it into their office. Possibly we could have later event if we'd read Especially about it we could you know five minutes. Well you know I mean you said that they did a couple of lines just to say something about They both I mean they I think they've released four documents outlining the way in which they're going to meet their commitments and they one of their the Guardian gave devoted page six the whole of page six to this. Erm and one of the pieces was sort of comments from various interested parties and the Green Party got a couple of lines in there after the Lib Dems and before . I was still laughing too much from from some comment that the Government did one one of their four promises was to was to put pri public transport before private roads. I nearly cracked up . John Major saying that people will have to accept restrictions on on car usages and it's an amazing thing to come from a Tory. Yeah and I I asked the question not too much from the Green Party point of view as from a personal point view as I I would like to know what my Government is saying to do about these things. I I'd no idea he he'd actually he'd actually said something like like that. He also said that there's no reason to give up the dream of economic growth but then there you go. Well nobody thinks that. They don't seem to be doing too well with the the energy of economic growth. No. Dream more I guess. No after all the party of economic growth and reduced taxation Yes I know I've I've read the publicity material and I thought you were going to say you voted for them. I would have had something to say about that. That's not my party They had Sir Jonathan on the radio the day of the message saying they're long on rhetoric and short of substance . That was the the overall comment I think that the documents were very very light on detail as you might I've was just I heard erm how Lord Jonathan has just been become become a pier or something. No it's erm his father died. It it's not a hereditary title I think but I think he can become a sir if he wants to. Yeah I just I guess I had hoped to be pleasantly surprised that it wasn't rhetoric The only coverage I've seen so far is erm is the news and ten of all things. That we were watching last night. And the encouraging thing was that they're all things that a few years ago in the Green Party sort things out they're all there. Absolutely. For all that the Government is making a bit of er er idiot of itself by not embracing the things that it needs to embrace the things it needs to do, at least it's saying that it won't do them. Which is the first step from the process isn't it? Did anyone see Panorama erm because er Panorama was was almost entirely I've got it taped. devoted to the question of of of road transport and its limitations and erm er although again I mean there was no particular mention to any party other than the Government, erm it it certainly seemed to be taking a very critical view of of road transport and it does seem to be spreading now. It doesn't seem to be er just a few sort of you know any more. Yeah. Certainly keeps them going on the grounds that eventually there will you know we'll be able to say and this is what we believed this long and you know this is what has been proved to be necessary. So it's We can already say that I mean there there obviously there's a lot of talk now about erm taxation towards towards resource taxes and those sorts of things which the Green Party were saying you know fifteen years ago or something. And now everyone's talking about it and it's in one way it makes you gnash your teeth that that we're not getting the credit yet yeah but in another way it's gotta be given I suppose. Mm. One last item for any other business erm I forgot about. There's a book that goes with names in this campaign. Erm a policy statement like roads to the future which is what reminded me of it. And the price has gone down it's only five pounds if What from twenty five? Yes thirty thirty five. Erm and I was going to say we will get a a boiled down version from with our materials for the campaign. But I was going to suggest that we order a copy of the book. Certainly. Okay we now have seven and a half minutes on affiliation other groups. Personally I think we might er defer it because that Perhaps we could start with an informal chat on the topic and work up to Yeah can you give us sort of thirty second briefing on what we're supposed to be developing Right well it came up when War on Want wrote to us and asked us to affiliate and we had a brief chat about it and felt that there are many groups that we could affiliate to. War on Want almost certainly weren't at the top of the list. Erm and then I think it was Andy actually who said that erm affiliation is something we could do with considering. I mean any groups at all and if so which ones. That it would be useful for us to affiliate to. What are the implications of affiliating with somebody be questioned by that I don't know the answer to. It depends sometimes he gets the information sometimes it's basically just registering your your approval with them. I mean it depends on each organization doesn't it? Sort of two way two way thing you agree or don't agree between yourselves. I'm in some ways surprised the non-political groups want to affiliate with with the party. War on Want are er for a long time have been the only probably the only erm that put their neck on the block as far as social and environmental aspects of the party go. But you know I agree with you cos that as a charity. Yeah they seem to have a lot more to loose than we do. Yeah. There's been a lot of trouble lately a lot of problems haven't they. War on Want didn't they go bankrupt or something. They did yeah. There is a possibility that War on Want should be considered as being relatively high on our list of people we would be willing to affiliate with. That's something that not bad at all they do as well so. So is this was the national War on Want who contact us or the local contact? Erm it was a lady who came from Leek. Oh. Do we have any feedback from any other local parties or the National Party are they recommending it or they only putting out feelers to local parties and ask what what we feel about it? No. associated with for example you're party. Oh that's just a mailshot deal. They quite likely the Green Party got a free mailshot and their communication returned or or even might have got some money from them you never know. I thought this sort of thing would be something the Green Party nationally should decide that whether in principle we ought to affiliate with. Yeah but the advice might not have gone amiss and Yes surprising that War on Want aren't asking the national party Yeah. and instead are mailshotting all the local parties. I think it may be it may be that they could perhaps get more money if the local parties affiliated separately but What about our links formal or informal with other York branches of other Yeah I mean this is this is erm more the sort of thing that I I had in mind. Yeah. Erm I think I mean we ought to be doing more with the local Friends of the Earth and local Greenpeace I feel. In the past Greenpeace have always rejected us and er on the grounds that in fact we're a political party. And Friends of the Earth it's only relatively new it's only been going properly for what two years. And this could be Yeah. We are getting on very well with the student green movements. Both of which are also non-political so that's that's a good step forward. Erm We've been concentrating a lot maintain the links with the with the university and the St James . Erm a lot of our members who were students in York stay on and and become you know active or in other parts of the country when they move on. It's very good good erm good thing for the party and they're usually quite starved of practical campaigning ideas and so we regularly try every at least every year to go and do a tour and erm we've been giving them we we're trying to rope them in on the various activities because they're crying out for Poor Steve walking into the meeting at St James and there were about twenty people in the room and you said, This is the green meeting isn't it ? I can't believe it there's too many people. They're they're both by a fluke at the moment they're both very strong. They went into a quiet period a few years ago it was very quiet erm but er yes they're they're going strong. We have informal links or have had er our main contact has just left. I've been trying to liaise with the Save our Forests which is and forestry privatization and technically I'm on the committee. But my other commitments prevent me from turning up to their committee meetings now so erm I'm sort of stepping back on to I'm just on to their mailing list. But the orig the whole idea behind that was really to to keep the Green Party's finger on the pulse with that. Get people along get the information networked and also to to maintain a political presence amongst the people who are writing to to or potentially to vote for us. Erm because the the national policy is obviously to target the green movement erm as our natural constituency. Erm and the only way we're going to raise a profile with them is by is by making sure that whenever can we support their actions. Anybody seen this? Can I suggest that we wind up the meeting and er. Yeah thanks for thanks for facilitating Andy that's great. The question that most of today's youngsters seem to ask is What was life like in Orkney when you were my age? Well looking back on it now it seems almost a life time away but it's amazing just how well you can remember those far off days. I don't think that I shall every forget the day when sugar came off the ration and at last we could make toffee. Prior to that the only way that you could get sweets was if you had the necessary ration coupons. And to this day I shall never be able to understand why so many of my generation, by the time they were in their teens, had a mouthful of dentures because it was not due to eating sweets. And despite the wartime rationing the general health of the country by the end of World War two had never been better. However the one dark shadow on our lives in those days was the alarming growth of the number of people with tuberculosis which affected the lungs. The hospitals were crammed full of the flower of Orkney's youth and many coughed and spluttered their way to an early death. However, the arrival on the scene of wonder drugs developed in Britain and America at long last conquered this disease which for decades had struck down young and old. One of the main carriers of the disease was found to be in milk and that's why today tuberculin tested dairy provide us with our daily pinta. By the nineteen fifties Kirkwall had a new power station at the P D C and already the distribution lines were radiating out from Kirkwall to bring mains electricity to the outlying areas of the mainland. But for many parts of Orkney this new service would be years away in reaching them and so the familiar thump thump thump of that diesel statomatic generator filled the air. Hundreds of these lighting plants were bought to light homes and farmsteadings in the mainland and in the islands. Agriculture was beginning to change dramatically as well and after two hurricanes which almost wiped out the flourishing egg industry many farms built more substantial hen houses out of concrete blocks and the poultry were kept inside all the time in what was known as deep litter houses. It was also discovered that egg production could be boosted by leaving lights on in the houses all night to fool the hens into thinking that it was still daylight. The biggest breakthrough in the farm came with the arrival on the scene of a small grey tractor called a Fergie and it seemed as though almost everybody had at least one and it became the jack of all trades on the farm and implements which had previously been pulled by horses had their shafts removed and couplings were made to fit them behind the tractor. And when it wasn't working on the farm a transport on the back and a bag of straw to sit on and it became the family's personal transport. A new motor car was for many a luxury that would have to wait for another day. Because already there was great interest in a new method of growing food for the farm cattle. It eliminated the need to grow acres of turnips or grain to feed the animals during the long winter months. Apparently this new method had been tried out down south and it seemed ideal for the temperamental Orkney climate because you harvested when it was green and then you put it in a pit and packed it with a tractor and then you left it until it turned black and rotted and then you cut it up in chunks and fed it to the cattle. It was called silage and to the careful Orkney farmer it seemed all too good to be true. However a few were experimenting with this newest innovation and looking around the Orkney countryside today well there's hardly a farm that doesn't have a covered silage pit or a grain silo and today the fields are full of barley and oilseed rape and a field of turnips is something of a rare sight these days. The only horrible memory of the nineteen fifties that even today makes me wince was that teaspoonful of cod liver oil followed by the concentrated orange juice that was spooned on us before leaving for the school in the morning and off you went with your flask of tea and your sandwiches in your school bag. School meals were only to begin some four years later. At break time we would all troop down to the village shop for a bottle of Garden's lemonade of a bag of what was all the rage in those days, potato crisps. None of your exotic flavours in those days and the salt I remember came in a small piece of blue paper in the bag. By the mid-nineteen fifties many Orcadians had begun the task of modernizing their homes by building new ones a process which over the past three decades seems to have gone on with ever increasing frenzy. In those days a new house was usually constructed out of wooden hut sections of which there was a plentiful supply as most of the troops stationed here in the war lived in wooden prefabricated buildings and when they left Orkney the buildings were dismantled and then sold. And even today hut sections can still be bought and despite the fact that they're forty years old the quality of the wood in them is often better than what you can buy today. Once the new house had been built is was often blocked in with a single course of concrete blocks and curiously enough today thirty five years later the modern method of building houses is to construct them all of wood and then surround them with a single course of concrete blocks. So were we in fact years ahead of our time in house building I wonder. By the end of the nineteen fifties life in Orkney had come full circle and like everyone else we had acquired a taste for the material things in life. And then on the twenty second of December nineteen fifty eight twentieth century technology arrived with the opening of the B B C television transmitter at Nether Burton in Ham and this electronic window in the world was to influence and change our lives beyond our wildest dreams. It's quite a while now since I've bored you with a few observations about our friends the dumb animals who share their lives with us on the planet and the more you observe them the more convinced you become that they're anything but dumb. I recently had an interesting encounter with the honeybee and it only served to point out that regardless of size the degree of intelligence is quite extraordinary. One bright sunny morning recently I set about painting the front of the house with its yearly coat of white paint to smarten it up. And I decided to paint one part of the wall which had not been painted before. Unknown to me a honeybee had made a hive in this part of the wall and not long afterwards I became aware of an angry bee searching frantically for the entrance to its hive. The sudden change of colour on the wall had upset its sense of direction and it buzzed about angrily and eventually it came into the porch where I was sitting and it stayed there for a few minutes and then went outside searching the wall again for the entrance. And after failing to find it once again it came into the porch and complained loudly and so I went outside and with a paint brush I marked the entrance to the hive with three blobs of paint of a different colour and then with a piece of cardboard I guided the tiny winged creature towards the marks on the wall and it went inside. A few minutes later it emerged and flew off and then when it returned it looked at the wall and saw the marks and went inside. Ample proof indeed that it had recognized them and it realized that it was the entrance to its home. Another day I observed the antics of a sea bird who had found a small crab in one of those rock pools on the beach below the house. And after several attempts to break the shell open by picking it up and dropping it onto the rocks, well that didn't work, so the bird picked it up and then from a about a height of twenty feet it dropped it onto the rocks below. Well it must have been a tough old crab because this didn't work either. And eventually in exasperation the bird flew a short way down the beach and picked up a small stone in its beak and then it returned and it bashed the shell repeatedly until it cracked it open and it was able to get at the contents inside. So you see human beings are not the only animals capable of using tools to get at their food. Now sheep are animals that we tend to regard as being pretty stupid and most of the time they're timid creatures who will run away at the slightest sound or sight of something strange in their midst. But at lambing time they take on a total change of character and they can sometimes become very aggressive. A mother ewe with two lambs in the field behind the house one morning demonstrated her strong maternal instincts when she successful saw off a two year old steer with a series of savage head butts. Eventually this great shambling hulk of a beast turned tailed and fled. Human beings it seems are not the only animals who go in for worshipping idols. The farm cattle have their gods too and anyone who leaves a car or a tractor and trailer parked in a field of cattle can observe that when such a vehicle appears it produces the most unusual reactions amongst the herd. And that old theory that animals can't see colours is just not true because any vehicle which is black or red in colour appears to get more attention that any other. At first it will be surrounded and sniffed and if it appears friendly then a good licking follows and if this is accepted by the stranger then it's usually used for a good old scratch. And that's why you can expect to find the car in the morning with the windows all covered in saliva and the wing mirrors all bent and the chrome strips on the doors are often with tufts of cow hair. And if the stranger has pleased the local cattle they will show their gratitude by plastering the sides of the vehicle with a generous dolloping of fresh dung before they depart. A field of cattle are normally quiet docile creatures and most of the time it's fairly safe to walk through their midst and they will observe your passing with that quiet curiosity. However the one thing that you must never do is to go between a cow and her calf and I made this mistake one morning and I had to take to my heals and run. And this started a stampede amongst the rest of the herd and as I advanced down the field with them all in close pursuit I somehow managed to clear a four stranded barbed wire fence like an Olympic champion. So be warned. Like human families the animal and the bird life have a order of seniority or what they call the pecking order and usually the more dominant member of the clan is the oldest. And at Mucklehouse we have Brigadier Sydney the gander and everybody else is kept firmly in place. But like most families while father appears to be the boss more often than not it's mother who usually has the last word. This morning I observed all of them returning home in single file after their dawn patrol around the valley and as usual mother was leading the way with father in the middle keeping the unruly youngsters in hand. When they reached their favourite bathing spot in the burn below the house they began the slow decent of the steep bank. However one of the youngsters at the back in his enthusiasm to reach the water tripped and fell over the one in front and this started a chain reaction in the column and the entire orderly procession landed at the bottom in a tangle of webbed feet and flapping wings. This undignified arrival at the bathing spot started off the most dreadful family squabble and several minutes were to elapse before order was restored. The more you observe the bird and the animal life you begin to realize that they're not so dump after all and if anything they begin to look and behave more like human beings every day. Does this have to be done writing it down? Yeah is it an important part of it? yeah you know when you have french yeah we'll have to take a, french kids and that talking oh yeah that's to do with the Norway from English yeah, but, there's a thingy on it, they'll be a but it ain't just us school, it's other schools in it as well yeah I know, but, they, they'll all, there, the others is two schools is one after another school and we're the only erm boys school and it's not an all girls school doing it, otherwise it ain't no, there's more schools than that, cos er the lady said that er, she goes I'm, cos there is when you he went what schools are these?, and so reading out a couple of schools, about four of 'em and no, quite out far they were she that hotel I know oh, er all what? the what? how do you know it's thingy?, how do you know it's for the kids in Norway? she said something about it in school, she goes she wants their names right and their occupation cos say like you go to the butcher shop and then you go to that and the other yeah so Norwegian they learn in English don't they though oh yeah oh but, yeah, but, this is gonna be done mostly on the streets in it for us?, so what they gonna learn about that?don't remember when thingy the last remember when he hit the first stone and hit that car window I don't well this thing weren't it, it was parked up, this was ages yes this was two years ago, just before er activities week weren't it? he goes what away and he found that legged it he meant to hit the car that was going I know so silly in he? he hit the back window and then he didn't do nothing, but then it all shattered did the man go up the school?, he never did he? he did and he thought I grassed, but I never, geezer want your window smashed yeah a red light come on the back and when, and then when the and let them go, must of heard it, saw running and he's er, he didn't have to pay did he? no, he what happened about it then? and then Andy got enough trouble that year cos he as well didn't he? I know, he put all the paper up his arm that was how long these tapes for?, like the first seven there, then, they're ninety minutes tape no not first, not all of 'em is it? yeah, they're T D K ninety they are yeah, I don't think the other ones are is that ninety minutes each way? what?, no it's just, it might be forty five and I'm gonna go like and Leyton Orient just scored the goal for this, that and the other it's a big area, and everyone's going what commentator for I said I'm not I'm on the radio yeah, that'll get nicked off ya no it won't that will I will go what I'll do tomorrow is zip it in my inside pocket there and wire it and all you can see, that's enough really you don't have to ask who? does he bunk off a lot Peter? no he don't bunk, he, he has got a lot of things, you know, he orders and that see you later Ah Ricky did you see the state of our trainers?er ah Richard it's fucked up, just gonna go over there it's alright Ricky I'll do Rick I can just tear this off, but I like the noise on the thing you never know yeah you haven't got, you touch fucking little shit head what shit head, shit head fuck you right, oh you don't live on bother, you fucking cheap oh big Jim blouse, cheap back and side is that enough information what? is that enough? enough what? you got enough? eh, I, I was supposed to do well I was suppose to do ten, do you know how many I've done? no one side, not even one, one side, I'm doing now no, oh Rick, Rick borrow bikes weren't we?, so how come I done it? should of put it on your bike oh what?, what?, bung it on and drop it Oh I have really, not, what I've done is I've taped one, one whole side and then I taped over it again by mistake oh what did say, she ain't come yet? what about if she lets us keep the walkman mm? what about if she lets us keep the walkman's yeah, yeah, that'll be wicked she wouldn't, I know she ain't never do that is your tape recording? yeah oh no when a country makes a produc a product, whether it'll be fruit or food or, er clothes and sells them to another country what is that called? don't look at him, I've written the answer down when a country buys the two, Mark take your coat off, give me your walkman, not suppose to bring to school it's a thing sir they make animals and crops okay Hey bud, where you going? I was supposed to be going home Example a thousand pound normally two and forty eight pounds, now only forty eight pounds What? D'you think it's the wheel of fortune? Well it says it is, it's been It's a whole page spread from such an established reputable company. All prices are fully inclusive of double glazing, grade one security p v c delivered . I don't know. It doesn't say anywhere there's a guarantee . Cheshire. I wonder if it's the same address as when we got ours? Well we should have guarantee somewhere in the box there I mean it's it's, how long is it since it was supposed to have gone bust? Well it's years since I thought it had gone bust I thought it was about ten years Wasn't there somebody from who got I can't remember. When we got that, when we had ours and er they said if you if you found someone else who would like who would have you would get seventy five pounds back and you gave the thing, who was it who was thinking about it? Was it erm what did they call? Isabel? Isabel? . Wasn't it her? It might have been, I can't remember Wasn't it just before or after her husband died? It's been that long I don't know. Her husband died when we were . It couldn't have been that. No. Well I phoned Shirley and she said she's fine. I told her off for not let not telling us she was ill and she said no, no I'm fine. She's got her friend Sandy staying with her When's Gareth back? He was he was in the house, I didn't speak to him though. I just spoke to Shirley. Erm, Sandy's staying with her for a few days. What else did she say? Did you say about us going down or not? No, I didn't mention it, at the moment. She's got Sandy staying now I asked her about the letter and she said she couldn't remember anything about it but she filled in something when they came back from Belfast and she said open it, so I opened it and it's one of these things er if you book to go to Dublin before May the whatever, the end of May, then if you went again in the Autumn, you you get er fifty pounds worth of vouchers or something, you go half price. It's one of those con things like they tried Well, Yes,wh why, I mean why would she go to Dublin Dublin before. What else? And why Dublin when i when they were When they crossed from when they crossed from Northern Ireland? I don't know. Cos they're trying to sell things all the time. Anyway, she doesn't want it. Martin still hasn't got his erm invalidity pension sorted out but he's managing alright at the moment. He's filled in all the things. I forgot er I haven't watched the television at all and I forgot to record what d'you call that thing? with the devil in it? Well it was half way through when I came in I forgot to I know I forgot to record it for you. I think I'll go to bed early tonight Does that rain mean it's off the coast or it's in our area? And was that minus one just the Western side or us as well? We'll get to know better with the local news after this Oh well, according to that it's cloud. At least it's a white cloud, not a black one Did you see your mother? No but I get a message, will you tell my brother, no don't tell my brother, they said, she said to one of the nurses and they said, your brother? No, my son. I said well what did don't you have to tell me? She said, we're not gonna tell you. So I didn't get to know what what they didn't have to tell Oh. What was she doing tonight? I don't know Mostly dry, sunny spells Mostly dry, sunny spells Sally was quite intrigued by that We'll have to get her a set of books. There's some bottles, jars, for the bottle bank as well You know the last time you the erm, the last time you missed the television pages, television supplement in the out of the Mirror. I don't think they believed me. And it's erm it'll be twice in a month and Chris is back again as our paper boy. The other one was so useless but according to the er that new manager in the paper shop everyone else got theirs. So I said I'm sorry but I'm not included in everyone else and he gave me one. The Radio Times? Why? Because it's got all the Ah. Are we staying up all Thursday night? Well, it's up to you . Of course, well you could stay in bed all day on Friday And I could take the kids to schools and go back I need to go, I need to go into the Co-op and Iceland. What shall I get for your mother? I'll get some chocolate biscuits I think. You would think she would put on a lot of weight, wouldn't you? I don't think she's fat though I know she doesn't eat that much but what she is eating i everything's sweet. Chocolate Pardon? Well sh I don't know. . if anyone offered me a chocolate when I was nursing, yes I would eat it but there was always . Which reminds me, I meant to get weighed this morning before I had my breakfast and I forgot. Remind me tomorrow, before I eat anything. I think I'd better put some washing in before I go out. Are those ankle boots dry? What? achilles tendon It's better now. I d on Wednesday I did the erm said to me don't do the high heel part if you think it's going to hurt again, you can still have the support under it, but I managed ok. It didn't hurt. The pink one's the dish cloth, the little one's the one I wipe up small spills off the floor. I wonder how Bryony is? What? I said, I wonder how Bryony is? She wasn't very well yesterday. Every time she got a bump or a knock off one of the others, she was howling instead of clouting them back. And Richard had, I don't think Richard's very well either. I said I don't, well stop running the tap. I said I don't think Richard's very well either. He cried more than usual. I wonder what kind of a night Trevor had with them on his own? What do you think of Granny Jean offering offering again to get Martin from school to save Trevor walking him home? I don't know. I like her. Mhm? I like her I'll just ri rinse my fingers hand cream on my hands. That was used as er, I can't remember what Richard was using it as yesterday He was poking it What're we going to do about these tiles for the step? To cover this little hole up. I hate to think what must be down there now. Oh, where're my other glasses? and they were cheaper than Cheaper? Fenwicks? Cheaper than what you call it, the place in I've got the price Cheaper than the do it yourself shop up ? But when can we get through to Newcastle? Well I, well I'm on a weeks' holiday aren't I, at Easter? And I've got to go, unless we go to Tuesday been to the dentist Which Tuesday? After they break up? That's right. Which is next Friday Yes So I hope they've sorted out The what?lin The appeal at the school that Mrs was supposed to have let Miss White know so she could send it off to the parents to get the money back scanner You didn't tell me about that I did tell you You didn't. All you told me, hang on, ah Miss White all you told me was that Miss White was retiring but I hadn't to tell anyone, which I haven't done, which I don't intend to do At the beginning of Lent, Miss White approached me to see what she should do about the appeal Ah ha as she always does, since I said why send money to Great Ormond Street when there was plenty of children locally? Yes So I asked if they wanted anything and she said a bed at the cottage hospital What good's a bed with no extra nurses? Well there are special beds Oh you mean a bed? You mean a special kind of mattress? Well she just asked about a bed so I told her that You mean a bed to replace a bed that there already is? She just said a bed, so I told her there were special beds that we are very useful in fact very necessary in cases and we tend to be short of them Ah ha and a bed costs two thousand pounds. There's another one can't remember the name of which costs a lot more Ah ha Something like five thousand . Anyway, I said I'd make enquiries as to what was wanted and I said because there's a new children's ward will open at the hospital and perhaps they would . So I saw Mrs and Mrs said they were aiming to raise money for scanner appeal Yes They're also going to have a obstetric department first time A what? Obstetric and patients Yes and that obviously they would be tend to be other children with mother's there so they would need perhaps a play facility there and other children who goes to the E N T clinic can go to the not just go to the outpatients casualty Yes There's very limited facilities for children to play with. So, but I also approached Mrs Earl about a . Anyway, she wanted me to go and see her. She said there was the scanner appeal, the talk about all sorts of other things that were possible and there's an arts appeal and for arts facilities in hospital and all sorts of things. So I went back to Miss White and said about the scanner appeal and she said that would be she thought that would be the best idea, not the . I also told here it's the diamond jubilee of the hospital and the children from invited to the hospital that day, that week sorry, it's gonna be a week in June so she wanted to know the details so I asked Mrs t would she write to Miss White and give her all the details but she thought it would be far better if she went to see her and explain it all. She was going on Wednesday, I hope she went. Hold on, which one was going to see which one? Mrs was going to see Miss White was going to see Miss I see So then I saw Mrs Irwin on Tuesday when I was in and she came up with all sorts of things that she would like for the new development. but there's nothing ready, of course. There's this giant sundial we're going to have in one of the courtyards. It's a giant one. It's it's th the building and the blocks of things in in in the in the courtyard that make the time. So the sun shines bit of the courtyard when it's eight o'clock and that when it's nine o'clock and so forth. This is just for the courtyard and these shrubs and things how? Where is it going to be seen from? I presume it's seen from the wards that're behind looking down into this courtyard. There's also erm a play area for the children's ward. There's also some murals on the walls, various artists did murals and of course they've got this grant from for six thousand pound for a exhibition. A six thousand pound grant for exhibition Well, well, over, over a period it's and other things too but this this set of murals and are involved in it. And various other art things. But also there's the thought of th gar a garden and the children keeping the garden up. But that's a long way and they have transport difficulties to cope from here to the hospital but then I though perhaps, if I can't see the education committee, with their lack of money, paying for transport for children out here to go to hospital to do a garden The the education committee and the school governors have no money at all to pay for that I know, I would have thought it was very low priority well it isn't even a priority, it's nothing, they won't get the money,th they won't pay for walk to go swimming but I thought that now that the has acquired that bus and it's gonna be standing around doing nothing for most of the time and it's a twenty nine seater bus. I mean, the seats come up so that wheelchairs go in, but in between times it's twenty nine seats And then you need a P S V licence But that's that's perhaps easily remedied, if you could get a er a driving licence holder to take them, who, a volunteer driving licence holder, among one of the parents or somebody who could take the children at periodic intervals to visit the hospital to do this sort of thing. So that was a possibility. But I haven't seen Miss White yet about all these sort of things. But I did also say to Mrs Earl that a new head will be appointed to take in posts from first of September and it might be better to discuss it with them after I discussed it with Miss White. I only know one person, I only know one bus driver with children There's ambulance drivers And he g he I think their children go to the Catholic school. Er, this letter from the Multiple Sclerosis Yes, it says It says if you've got wheelchairs in you reduce your number of people. You're no you're not reducing the size of the bus well I think that's crazy And someone who's been u just used to driving a car, are they going to be able to drive a huge long bus with no extra tuition? Well Whether it's got sixteen people in it or twenty nine, it doesn't alter the length of the bus Well, I drive the mini bus at the hospital I know Which only takes four wheelchairs and of course there's the drivers of the minibus thing at . I think I I would query that anyway Would you like to get into a vehicle the length of a bus with no extra tuition No, no but and just drive it But but I query as well whether, just because you reduce the number of passengers in it, that you don't need a P S V licence or the equivalent, it isn't a P S V licence but it's it's have looked into that It sounds doubtful to me, but anyway, there's the insurance point of view, but anyway if people whoa re willing to drive can have experience in driving before they take passengers out. Y'know I didn't drive the minibus until I'd driven it without passengers. Y'know I I drove the minibus with only somebody in with me before I drove it with people in it Did you drive Oh yes, I drove that, but that was a long time ago that Yeah, but, you drove that one I drove it to Ashington and back You drove to Ashington in it. Erm do you think I could throw these roses out? They're dead, aren't they? I'm afraid so It's a shame Pardon? They'll they'll have been forced from last Sunday, that was the wasn't it? I know, I know but they were dead by about Tuesday. The yellow one was dead by Tuesday. What a shame, never mind. Right, I'll put my make up on Can you tell me where you want this umbrella tree? Er it needs a saucer of course Well there's a huge saucer on the old one Oh but that's in Well plant pot altogether Well, just leave it there for now. Erm, I'm going to put my make up on and think what I need from the shops It's ten o'clock I know. I'll have to hurry up or you'll get no dinner . Oh my head feels . I do I haven't had a headache like this for I wanted a carton of live yoghurt. I don't think the live yoghurt I used was any good because, for a start it was fruit flavoured, no it wasn't it was natural, but it said mild flavoured and I don't think it was the proper like the Greek style really live yoghurt that would have started all the fungus growing on it. It is beginning to look like a proper . Er, ok, I'll go and get ready I don't think it matters but if the weather's still going to be freezing at night I know, but it's got the polythene bag round it still. I've got it standing on that brick to drain. Wish I knew what to do with the other azalea. Some of the erm stems on it look as if as if , not mouldy, but er they're sort of Well we'll just have to dig it up and put another one in green Those hyacinths in the corner are taking a long time to come out, aren't they? I'd have though the tulip in the coal scuttle, the tulips in the cauldron, I thought they'd had it, they were lying down completely I know, but they've straightened out but they've grown up again. And those forget me nots that're called blue ball and are supposed to have brilliant blue flowers are coming out with tiny pinky purple flowers. If they're blue, so am I I wonder if that miniature rose is gonna come up the w the one in the tub, no. Oh yeah, the one in the tub looks ok, it's the other one. I like the other one best as well, it's the peach one. When're you going to prune them? Well, when I plant that other one where you want it planted, that's I wonder when er going to have the erm wheel barrow ready Yes. Oh, it said in yesterday's paper that someone had had a wheelbarrow valued at thirty pounds stolen from her back garden and it was somewhere at , where the back gardens aren't particularly accessible. So ours must have cost, I'm sure that would cost them a lot more than thirty pounds cos it didn't it didn't say a wrought iron wheelbarrow or anything, it just said a wheelbarrow Well there was er four So we'll have to get it Those four tapes incidentally Tchaikovsky. I sold them for fifteen pounds. What four tapes? The four tapes sold them for fifteen pounds in That who sent you? That Shirley and Gareth sent me for Christmas Oh. I wish you would think of something you would like for your birthday I've told you, I want a you need binoculars to go to Rome with I can't see very well through binoculars The Cistine Chapel. Unless we take those big ones with us. Oh Jim, they're too heavy It doesn't need an easier camera, it needs you What happens with that camera, you've got to rewind it every time. There's better ones now, automatic rewind, that's what I need. You have never sat down and read It's the rewind that's the problem all the, read all the instructions. The same with the video camera. You haven't even watched the tape When have had an opportunity to watch the tape? Oh, you must have been able to squeeze half an hour some time or other. Anyway, I'm going to get ready or we'll never get the shopping done before you go to work. Anyway Right, I'm ready. Have you locked the back door? I thought we were walking. Are we not? Ok. Pardon? I thought we were walking Well, do you want to walk or do you want to go in the car? Well I have to go to the paper shop Well I'll drop you at the paper shop while I go round Oh, that's a good idea I hope we can get out at the . Have you stuck a poster , you haven't, in the back window No, I haven't I think more people see the back coming up that way than they do the front window Yes but I'll stick one in the back as well Hope I've got my glasses with me or I can't see the prices. Oh, I haven't got my purse. Oh brilliant. Is that a squashed ball in the road? That means I haven't got a key to get back in the house . If you just stop here I'll run over the road. Give me the key please. Thanks. Oh the car wants to be Sorry He didn't look very pleased, did he? If he was in such a desperate hurry, he could have gone round and gone the other way We don't usually get a second post on a Saturday You do, you had a parcel Oh yeah. I've dropped my pen under your seat. I'll get it when we s unless you, have you got another one? Thanks Have you seen Kath and Rory recently? No I've just realised I haven't either. When I saw that woman crossing the road, I thought it was here. Please let us out someone. Press the button somebody It wasn't Oh, thank you kind sir . It wasn't what? It wasn't the cars there, it was the cars turning at the end of the road We need some sugar. We've had no sugar all this week, not that you've noticed. I made the custard from er sugar cubes. I didn't know how old the sugar cubes were. Right. when we packed up your mother's house. Right then, I'll met you at the Co-op Co=op Ok I can't get out any quicker. See you later. Hello, please, and there was no erm television supplement and no comic in the Daily Mirror this morning. That's the second time in the past four weeks we've had missed that Seventeen That's three sixty five please Two four five sixty five Thank you Thank you Thank you. You haven't given me the bits missing from the Mirror. Well that's erm Well I'm sorry but my Daily Mirror was dev delivered this morning without the television supplement and without the comic and I want them the actual page? The whole supplement that come on Saturdays That part That part wasn't in? This part was not in. And there's usually a free comic as well, and that wasn't in either. And that's the second time in the past four weeks that those pieces have been missing from it Well No, I don't need the whole paper. I've got the rest of it. I canna gi' you one under there though Well you're going to have to because when I pay for a paper, I want it to be complete, so I want that piece and I want th that piece, no wait a minute, where is it? Which is the television? Where does this start? That's forty change. Thanks a lot. There we are. Right, so I've got the two pieces that are missing from my paper Well, I've already paid for mine so I'm going to get Well, you'll just have to tell them that it's missing but when I've paid for a newspaper I expect to get all the pieces that I've paid for and I've already paid for mine, so this I'll take. Thank you Hello Hello Hello raises a lot of money through sponsorship few people committing money every month. Will it go in? Yeah, I'm sure it will. Thank you Thank you They're not really are they, the Chinese or Oriental dancers? I don't think so anyway, they seem to be A lot of cars at the school this morning. I parked right on the end of the erm the lane, just Mm in, there was just enough room for me. Mm? Course we were late anyway well not late for John's but Which way do you go When I came back into ? Cos you can cut through that I turn round and go back, yeah. Mm. And of course the coach had come up the hill couldn't overtake where I was parked, blocking off the entrance to the lane where I'd just come out of so that the string of cars coming down the road and the first one wanting to turn in and of course the coach had covered it. Oh yeah It was completely blocked off coach couldn't go backwards because there was cars behind it. So I gingerly walked down and crept into the car realized that I was the one that had caused all that and drove off And ignored Slinked off into the mist. So he couldn't back back then No no that wa that was it, completely stalemate. big Volvo estate was facing if he'd go down there, I can get through and he can come back again and he wasn't gonna do that. Too much brain damage there's a big notice at the end of the lane which says Well he'd come up from Totnes this morning. Oh, yeah. What they usually do is they go up and then back down by the church Yeah. and turn and go back again. Mm? It is eight o'clock though Mm Perhaps I'll do some gardening. Did you do away with your or just put a plank over the top? I put back so and then I put against the fence. Oh Alex came in today. Ooh Yeah Well he's got he's got plenty of money, right? And er the car arrives I looked all I could see was mother sitting in the car and puffing this smoke puffing out through the window Mm. and erm in came he'd had a a little tiny switch out of his black and white telly Oh yeah and he said it's a and the switch won't work. I said how long have you had this set? He said ooh about six years, I said yeah and the rest. I said where did you get it from? He said well I used to work at I got it from . I said how long is it since you retired from ? Said ooh it'll be erm eighteen years this year. Yeah. I said you've bought this since you left ? Well I was trying to find how old it was. Mm So he said oh no since I left. I said well I, I'd still reckon it's about ten years old now. Oh no it's only six years old. fix the switch on I said you'll never get a new one anyway. And oh they were talking about Rod they was they were saying that, you know, about Rod getting married Yeah? Well I said well how old is Rod? I dunno he said er Steve how old's Rod? I said well come on you're his dad, you should know how old he is. So he went out to the car and asked mother how old is Rod? She says I don't know don't remember having him mind you I remember having him but I don't know I can't remember when it was. He's thirty something. Hard to put an age on him. Ray was thirty eight Is he as much as that? Mm. Well it must be ten years ago when he worked for the B B C and that, he must have been in his late twenties then Mm. so anyway he's he's engaged and it's taken him two years to get engaged so it's gonna take another couple of years to get married. Yeah. He's still got the M G and it's got three twen twenty three thousand on it now. It's Mm S reg, got it from new of course,. And some chap came down from the M G B Owners' Club and said he'd offer him six thousand for it. Mm But he said he thought that was price cos he said it's worth at least ten the mileage originally, you know? Mm. it's absolutely like new. ? Mm? Where did he get it? He bought it from brand new somewhere, In Devon, yeah. Mm. He's got a Metro at the moment they're driving around in, she drives, she passed her test at sixty eight. So he's seventy eight now she's probably about the same I think. Mm. But they had a Mini before the Metro and er the day they bought the Mini they saw an advert in the paper saying that if you buy a Mini in the next few days give you a free colour portable with it. Oh. Of course they didn't get the portable with this, they rang them up, said where's my colour portable said I'll put you on to the manager anyway they had some deal that night that erm to launch this Mini Mayfair or whatever it was wine and cheese thing so he went to the wine and cheese thing and worried he was gonna kick up a fuss so they gave him a telly anyway . yeah. He's a penny pinching old bugger he is, god! I can't quite imagine No. coming back in a minute. Yeah What about ? The dust wagon came up to the warehouse today, the usual they'd got halfway to emptying the first dustbin in the back Oh yeah. and the hydraulic hose on the back of the dustcart broke there was hydraulic fluid all over the all over the car park. So the driver said can I use your phone? He came in and trampling this brake fluid all over the carpet. He got through to the base camp to find out when the chap was coming to fix it. Five minutes later he came in trying to tell tell us jokes and each time he'd been paddling through this brake fluid and the carpet is just you know, brains Mm. Hand picked for the job I should think. Well we didn't notice the footprints until he'd left. Mm. Yeah of course once they get to know where you are This is it and you don't o do you open weekends? You don't open Saturdays now? We don't, no. No. Are you going to? No we don't. I dunno, we're thinking about it but, you know it's erm Well if you're doing enough to keep you both happy and keep it Well you see we're a bit further from home now and if we can do it for five days, great, we haven't Yeah got that extra travelling, you know, this is the problem. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're looking better for it though. Oh yeah I feel alright, yeah. Yeah. Frankie give me a b g er as I get stuff I'll bring it in to you, alright? Yeah, okay lovely. well you know you've only gotta give me a ring Alright Yeah. You've only gotta get me, you know I'll be Picked your cheque up? Yeah it's in there. Yeah. See you shortly. Thank you very much See you Tata See you got a on those, yeah. Bye now. Yes, a little drinkypoohs would certainly help. And they say it's never been so good! Well this is it isn't it? Mm. A little improvement certainly wouldn't hurt. Make sure this doesn't kill it stone dead. yes. No with these is extra, is, there's on the main board so I think I can get away with just one Varying degrees is it? Yeah Phillips usually put two of these on but Right-y-o blast off. innit? That's a bit more like it. Cor yeah. ready See those are cheap sets we can probably buy them for about twelve quid apiece couldn't we? Yeah that's right. You can always get twenty five quid off the trade double your money, quick easy money. Yeah. That's not a bad is it really?bit of blue perhaps bit more like it innit? Ooh. Cor, fair near jumps out at you. Compared to what it was it's bloody brilliant innit ? She'll be well pleased with that. Yeah it was a big over to the main you know that and had a look at the, the but Right, whereabouts down there Erm Oh it's down there That there Ah was really black. Yeah. That's that actually I'll do I'll do th no I've just been round most of those. I'll do this end as well I think be on the safe side. I've been right round the lot anyway so that's jolly good. over a period of time can you, Yes that's it . I think some do. Yeah, Did you say it's from out of town this one? industrial estate she lives down somewhere. Oh this one is? Yeah. Oh. Yeah. She phoned this morning and I said I can't come and collect it cos I'm here by myself she said oh I'll bring it in, that's alright, no problem but er we're going away to Gloucester at two o'clock Oh I see I oh I said we'll try and see if we can get it done I says, so Oh I see. I said if it doesn't come in at two anyway and I'll lend you something Mm very good. so Oh well that's good, right. otherwise we'll go down I think we could let her off this time. that's er all your overheads paid innit? That's right, yeah. I think Ian used to sell these things, whatever they are. Yeah that's what I said he said no it didn't come from me he said but I think they did used to sell something like that. He popped in a couple of times. His missus earns nineteen grand a year. Pardon? His missus earns nineteen grand a year at the bank. Cor! And he gets about, he didn't say what he got but it's over the twenty three thousand drawings that er they're worried about the level of er tax, you know, for the next My goodness. So he must, they must get forty grand a year Between them, yeah. Well I did a proje projection for the erm guy at Nationwide, I said well it's probably gonna be about a hundred and fifty grand turnover and about twenty five to thirty percent clear, you know Ah net profit. Which is about right I suppose, yeah. So I said I said my share'll be about twenty five grand roughly so he's quite happy with that, yeah. Yeah cos I mean come the winter we'll we won't know ourselves. We will, I shall have to stop playing golf again. Still it hasn't stopped me yet. No. I took erm bank the other day I took hundred quid out Right. so I mean you would still've got your golf thing out Oh right money out there and I had the hundred quid that Okay that I gave Alan so Oh that's alright then. we're all straight. No we seem to be s wages cos we've been giving ourselves under wages over the last That's true, yeah it's all worked itself out hasn't it really. I took the two videos off the shelf and re-boxed them and as soon as Oh yeah come back I'll put on the shelf. No my friend's in the trade I said they're basically working but they've got a halt on somewhere because they've come back you'll have to sort out the you've got but er they're only one ten Yeah. I think they both actually probably work it's just they couldn't figure out the programming on them. you know? Yes. Yeah. I mean if I'd had the money I think so. first did it, you know and er Yeah. And Jim, when he comes in, they're both, they're both all, I've pr priced them up on the top and er Oh they're done are they? Yeah. Oh you Yeah that's, that that's yeah they cured that fault, yeah. Yeah, that was the springs off. That was the springs off Oh that was the springs off heads clean, that was the belt that was gone Oh yeah plasticine. set back in the inside? Yeah. But I told him about the telly that it's a bit beyond redemption. Mainly for where it's lived for the last three or four years I think. Well yeah. If your person don't have the er over there, I think Gary's helping out this week, he might Well I can always ring Bob and er confirm that. Oh it was Bob weren't it? Yeah. And then if he don't want it then dee dee dee dee dee dee dee dee thanks very much ta ta council. Yeah? That's very nice of them. Yeah well we, we couldn't push for a new No, no I was just happy to Well yeah it's You're recording now are you? Yes, I've gotta Well you've got to get, get something on haven't you? gotta get these tapes filled up. How many tapes have you got to fill up? There's twenty tapes altogether but there's no way I can fill up twenty tapes. I don't speak that much No Should have had one in the bedroom last night with next door upstairs. My god she was making a racket. Was she? Cor! Grunting and groaning Really? Oh that sort of a racket yeah. Yeah that sort of a racket, oh dear. Well next door but one are having erm double glazed back window, you know that main lounge window and the the guy's parked halfway across the drive with the van, left it there all in disarray you can just about get your car up and round and brains that some of these people No. Hmm neat little telly innit? Yeah, it's er it's only Not working? it's only frame collapse. Oh well done then. service switch ah! Hang on that's interesting Yeah If the worst comes to the worst Dave's found a place where we can get new tyres for about twenty five quid each for the M G. Oh yeah. He's still trying to find some he's phoned a bloke in Plymouth see if he can get them. That's a nice tyre we got for the erm caravan for ten quid. It's er would be nice cos they look ni we had on the other white M G and they're a nice Yeah . The other one's all arrived over safely and the bloke's driven it and he's all happy with it Oh good. and waiting for his next one to come Oh marvellous. Er Is he selling them over there? No he's keeping them for just fun cars for himself, he's just got the money to burn over there Marvellous so he's only, he's got a one of the new B M W seven three five that er no the big Merc, a big new Merc through that's right, not the the latest Merc so he says er er he's a bit disappointed with the brakes on the M G but Dave said they were a phenomenal brake for an M G he said Yes. compare it against the latest Merc That's right. He's all I expect he's all been paid all his money and Mm but it's good in a way that he's got his money because he can sort of, sort of finance ours Well yeah he is, he's got a little bit anyway till we, yeah yeah, I should imagine he is. quite a few bits and pieces. It's getting Kevin in to finish it off. I phoned Kevin, I've got Kevin's mum and dad's phone number off Dave and phoned at home but he's gone out for the day or something they said. But he's got to strip the bonnet so Dave said well I'll get my lad to strip the bonnet this afternoon and er you know,few hundred quid for the day we'll be glad to be able to finish off doing them and He's got too many Yeah cos you haven't been able to to play with really er we c to clear ten we've still got two and a half grand left Have we? and so there's twelve and a half grand we're owed Yeah yeah so if he charges, you know, fifteen hundred for his bit and then another grand to finish it off we're still clearing ten, you know, Oh well that's good then. we might even clear a little bit more than ten but Bit more than ten, yeah. I mean if he charges two and a half I wouldn't be disappointed cos it's been in his garage, he's pushed everything along and he's always so Yeah, oh and he's been pretty reasonable hasn't he? we're all going out for a drink with yourselves I think. Good. That sounds like a good idea. Me, I don't drink. No don't drink any more Not at this moment. starts tonight dunnit? It was funny I'll see if he can arrange the old erm the guy's er filling out the form for the er mortgage and he's er said non-smoker? Yeah, yeah and Lynette yeah non-smoker, you know. When we got outside I said I couldn't very well offer him one I only had two left in the packet That makes quite a difference on your policy, the premium Yeah if you're non-smokers. She laughed, she thought it was hilarious. Yeah. Couldn't really offer him one. Ah the well known tube company of Shung Wa Yeah Toshiba tubes Chung Wa yeah. Chung Wa Wonder where these are made, oh Taiwan. It must be the big companies that have gone and set factories up mustn't they? Yeah. I tell you what, what a beautiful little chassis that, I mean that's the technology just from a I mean that's so easy innit? It's beautiful innit? Easy to work on. Yeah. All you've gotta do is find out what's wr gone wrong with it. Well I should think it's this little frame chip here, I'm Oh I'm gonna check all round I mean I should imagine that's what it must be. Standard one is it? Or something weird. Well it's bound to be something weird I suppose. fifty, oh looks like a five five one thread A N? What do you make it? I think that's Well have a look. I'll get the t the torch, that's what I want probably. Ah yep, perfectly correct. A N five five one five you won't have one of them in stock will you? No. Have a check see if the go in that direction, pretty sure they do. la la la la la yeah, that's it, that's the frame output chip. I think I might just give it a solder over because it's er a bit dry in that area. Oh yeah. That's I've done all of that plus them others you Yes I'll just try these erm solder up this service switch and er everything else seems alright, there's no anywhere, mind you it's nine times out of ten it'll Oh quite a nice design innit eh? The leaves are long enough to Yeah I can leave the speaker off for a minute. I can just about get in behind without blowing myself up I think. No, that's what it'll be then Yes, okay then thank you. That's alright or anything just ask for what you want and that's it. Oh you wanted something else did you? That's alright, that's something in Gerald's little telly, it'll probably need one of those little but I'll, I'll look it up first, check it out first. I'd better be sure cos this it's not a cheap one that one so that No alright. It's no problem. Well that'll be the day Lexy's not coming up till, what the weekendish? Wednesday Thursday Friday Oh right. should be here today the old They did very well there actually didn't they, overall? I mean er we did alright as well but Yeah. Oh they've only gotta get the two done and they've got their money back haven't they? Yes, that's right. If they get that going they'll get two hundred and fifty for that. Yeah. He was very cagey about the fault on that, he probably knows it. Oh yeah. Yeah. Well didn't we, no we haven't told him what the fault is even though have we so I told him it was a there when it, it shut down but that's all, yeah. Oh Didn't tell him about the er row of eights on there. It's probably a processor fault. Ten quid'll have it fixed I expect. Mm. If you could buy those that sort of thing we'd make good money with it er non-working. Yeah. It still came in as an F S T didn't it? Mm. Mind you it's true he'd''ve got more for it probably if it'd been working but How much how much more how many people want that sort of thing? You know. One twenty five, one twenty for the trade I suppose Yeah. Innit? At a push. Well I think we've wo er I think we've won that little erm forklift. Yeah. Doesn't seem to be a hire job does it? Usually have them painted all over. probably quite expensive things Yeah bet they are. It's probably been left by the guy that was here before you know. Oh probably, the Yes, pallets of frozen stuff around, yeah. Yeah. If anybody comes in for a car radio cassette, I've stuck one at the top there twenty quid if anybody Ah right. Is there just that, that big goes in front was it, or just pushed in? What's that? That bit. Oh I see it's just the front loose. Just the cover that's all. Yeah. There! I think I shall have to get is a decent FM radio, I use a radio more than a tape actually in the car, but mine's only a long medium wave job. Yeah I use the radio all the time now. Must get Robert down here. Yeah, any excuse to er contact him? Besides asking Er him for money. diagram for for that erm mark five out there could you ask him for one of them? I've got that from the lads. Oh. Yeah. He doesn't know that. Well is there anything else you want? That's true. Mm. Wonder what the chassis, that must be Well I wanna order some more Toshiba flaps through him. Yeah. down there. I think this is the same I've got the manual for these. six ninety nine wannit or something? Six ninety this one. Six ninety. Yeah. Oh that'll be alright for er assessing That's a thought, yeah I can wang it on. This was working when I picked it up, I'm pretty sure it was. What does it do, anything at all? I can't remember. It's just erm like a sink innit? Dunno I haven't seen it on. I think. Stand by. Oh. That's better. It's doing something anyway. Yeah. I should think Perhaps that's what it is, lack of s lack of stink. This looks alright. Contrast, colour It's all there isn't it? brightness Could really set off a disgusting Oh that's alright. Oh colour's dropping out, let's have a look. Oh it is a flap, I thought it was red tape on there. It's a red flap. Yes. These Names of er well they must enormous fortunes mustn't they? Well yeah, and yes they've just asked them for forty grand more haven't they? Tony Jacklin and people like that. Just to keep the thing afloat. Oh it's starting to drift now that's where the colour's disappeared. Well that should be a freezable job if it's warming up and going wrong. Yeah. Did you see the Nat West profit, they lost three hundred million last year. Cor! Erm not, they didn't lose it, they went three hundred million less than the year before profit though, two hundred millio er bad debts Yeah two hundred million Maxwell. Really? Lloyds made about six hundred grand didn't they? They didn't do bad did they? No, they did very well. But erm See the shares jumped. I mean how did they lend him two hundred million without absolutely secure collateral? They wouldn't lend it to anybody else would they? Well I thought that was funny about that guy that watch Wogan on there last night, that girl that No just been on that film Barry Norman was on there and er Oh the one that Drop the Dead Donkey, that girl? Yeah. She was in this film and He got, that's right, he got two hundred grand Two hundred grand from the bank. but I should think that's security, it's the bloke's house probably that. Probably took a chance with it. Yeah but it's a lot innit for a film that you never know is gonna It is, yeah. be any good. Ah mind you he could probably sell it to the TV companies for about that I should think. Yeah very good though,card number again or anything. Oh it's brilliant that is. They're so cheap. They're ever so quick. And they do it, and they've got it in stock, you know so Yeah yeah very good. Not no we're out of stock on that one, we're out of stock on that one. Very efficient. Pity they didn't do other stuff besides Yeah. I suppose that's how they've managed to be Yeah. Yeah just get the chips and that's it. I phoned a customer last night and said that the system should be done by the latest I would think next Monday like, you know? And I said I'll bring it round personally and er you know, get it switched on for her. Yeah I want a lot of grovelling she says, I want an enormous amount of grovelling when you come. cos they've seen exactly the same one for five hundred and twenty five quid Well it does look a bit like a T X ninety T X eighty five, that's a new one on me. Well different again. The plug's hanging off. Eh? That plug's hanging off. Which one? Oh that one? Oh yeah. Yeah I don't suppose that happened when I pulled it out. It could do something. Cos I thought these were all working actually. Oh it's funny this one doesn't use a mains tranny like the others do. Remote control. Hmm swines This is tricky though. Yeah that's maximum colour. decided to go up to Malden I think it was to stay with a mate of Derek's twenty years Yeah? er Derek's forty four erm year younger than he is and er he's got he started, he bought a station and er, years ago, and a station master's office with a garage and all that, you know about twenty years ago and he dealt in tyres. Oh yeah? Er then he, there's only three houses in the road that he lived in,, the next one along the road came up for auction and he sold his station and moved up to that and he said he's just bought the one at the end of the road now which is er seven hundred and fifty thousand he paid for it, a hundred and fifty thousand to have it interior decorated. Cor! There's a five acre lake, forty five acres island My goodness. This bloke's got two Lambourginis in the garage and er the latest BMW all from, he said he works seven days a week for it he said but he, you know, he's just an ordinary bloke who got it all just working Well it was but whether it's erm try it again from cold I think. Right, let's stop and have a sandwich shall we? I've ceased trading erm I'm now selling off all my stock which is left from my home Goodness. over the weekend, done four grand. unless you're gonna for it. same price no guarantee Yeah he's being greedy. Cos we had a twenty, twenty two and a twenty six didn't we? And he, the first bloke come and he said oh I'll have all three of them. Yeah He, he didn't realize that I had more stacked in the other room ready to come out Yeah. We sold one telly the other week about no we sold one, one telly about six or seven times didn't we? Yes. T V and a video we sold six times. Yeah. We're not doing nobody down. No No. nobody wants to trade that way, I don't No. I don't wanna trade from home. Don't want But last week people coming into my house buying gear. When I go home Last week, yeah of an evening last week we had Do you tell them you're a trader then? No. Not up until last week. Right my wife was selling as far as I was concerned. Not up until last week. But now this week, from what I put in the paper it's obvious that we're traders Mm now like innit? So We had one bloke come last week he lives about fifty yards from the shop. Yeah. Yeah ? Comes all the way home to buy a telly for fifty quid b bought a cheap one Yeah for fifty quid and he only lives, well, hundred yards, if that, from the shop. Get off ! He could've come in the shop and bought them, yeah. Yeah. Oh I said you'll have to go in K T V for servicing. And he never, he never queried it. He never said well are you anything to do with it or nothing. Yeah. And there's a photograph in th I never told him that Mm photograph in the middle and you know, but Oh he was thrilled, he had a good deal. Well he had a nice little T V. No we don't stitch them, no. Oh yeah a nice no. He had a Phillips G eleven, he took it home and plugged it in, it ran for two hours and the fuse went. So he phoned up, he said I know I didn't have a guarantee, can you do anything for me? I said yeah bring it back and have another one. Well the next the next the next one was a joke. Bloke come and bought a Teletext with his friend, come all the way from Falmouth, he pulled on the front, paid me his money, saw the telly working, put the remote in his pocket, my son carried the telly down, put it in the back of the car the bloke shut the boot, he drove off the front, I picked up the phone he er and he just swung round off the front, the boot come open out come the telly! Oh goodness. So he just got out, picked it up, shoved it back in and drove away. Get off! And I give him three mo cos I'd give him three months guarantee with that, I thought yes and I was standing there on the phone and I thought you dare come back! Oh yeah We haven't heard from him have we? Oh. No he probably ain't going to is he? No. He ain't going to is he? No Oh did he? Mm Yeah. That's like a skating rink now then. It may be alright though, it may be alright with a bit of luck, you know? I would've tried to help him out if we had a if we had a, a shot one with a case like, you know? Then we could've put it together for him. You know you can't be hard on people can you really? Or I don't think so anyhow, we'd've nailed it together for him for nothing and Well Yeah ? It depends on his attitude, if he'd been trying to pull a fast one on you and er Yeah this was like this when I bought it off you Oh no no, if he, if he tried to pull a fast one we've already had one like that th that came in and bought a set unfortunately his father paid by cheque, oh no, well he paid by two cheques which, they had a card on them I know very well they can't stop them very well and he went out and er, and er the T V was only in the car and he went round a corner quick and he went brrrm like that you know Yeah and split the case and all on the T V and he come back in he said oh I picked this up he said and the case fell to bits. And I was there Yeah, yeah there and I said no my handsome you didn't pick that up and the case fell, fell to bi he, cos he was going on this is inferior not up to standard and so I said I said now you can shut that up right away, cos I said you know it's not I said er now if you want us to try to help you out on this you just tell us what you did. Anyway his father was there and his father had paid and I said no you know, you've done that. So anyhow he, his father said well that's right he said we'll be probably covered on the house insurance. And they were anyhow so they had a brand new telly. Mm. And we had that one back and nailed them together and sold them again. But he tried it, you know Yeah sneaky like that. Mind I know there's some that when you can pick up if you're, you know you could pick up something like that if you weren't careful and just pick it up from the inside Yeah. and the bloody will fly off won't it? Yeah. They're only stapled together in the corner aren't they? Yeah And then er That one just won't erm tune in in case Oh. Toshiba aren't they? Yeah we should get sixty pound for them I should think. That much you reckon? Yeah. Well if you wanna pick the up for them you've got one two three four I don't know what you're gonna do Yeah the little Toshibas are remotes aren't they? Yeah. They're only a couple of quid, the flaps for those Yeah if you wanna bother or not. No I shall shove them out as they are. Nice little cabinets anyway Actually we may have, we've got one or two mashed up sets, we may have flaps for them, I dunno. It doesn't detract from them anyway does it? I mean Not really. That's what you want really, you want about a thousand of them now Yes. Yes if we could buy a thousand I think we'd have a thousand of them. Yeah, yes. You can get plenty of what you don't want and a little of what you do want. Start of the season you just don't see start of the season and Christmas you just don't see No. Well I'll be quite honest with you, when I came in the other day you had a couple and I'm amazed that you've still got them. We don't let them out. Eh? We don't sell them. We don't sell them unless people Unless people buy big sets we don't sell them. We won't just sell a portable to anybody. You won't? I mean you're lucky to get that one mate, I mean you must have been, caught him on a real good day. I got forty six at Christmas. Yeah if somebody's loaded down with them, if they've got End of season's the time to pick them up. forty six videos. Yeah, that's right. Oh yeah, yeah Oh no I don't blame you. If you've only got Well it's unfair to everybody if somebody has the lot and then everybody can have a couple and keep a few of their customers happy. You can always sell them within a couple of days of them coming in Thank you for the coffee. I dunno who you were gonna make it out to but make it out to I've just made it out to nobody at the moment. Just make it out to nobody Right. I was thinking Rex might like that little G E C out there, that's a nice little Less ten less ten percent he said for being a good customer . He ain't got that written down there has he? That's true, no I haven't You must, you must get fed up with hearing it. How much do you want for the, the little er? Well I want forty quid really. It's a very nice one owner set, we took it in I don't know if you want part exchange actually. See the G E C down there? It's just a basic It's absolutely mint. but it's a minty one. The chap's had it, a single bloke box out there. On the far side I can't even see it. Underneath the See portables. Yeah. There. It really is tidy. I'll put it on if you want. It's just a twenty two inch basic but it's extremely It is? And it's in perfect working order? Oh yeah, I'll put it on for you. But we, I know the chap he doesn't watch telly that, he's a lon lon long distance lorry driver and he had to have remote and text so he swapped it, you know, and er Oh well don't bother about it, we'll soon sell it. No problem. No let me take a look at it, let me take a look. Right, I've got some money for you my man. Right you'd better see the cashier big fat chap with the glasses. No I think on that one. Okay fair enough. Only to be quite honest I pick up some stuff and mainly now the basics we get free. No er when we get somebody in that Yeah. that wants a reliable one owner, not ex-rental sort of set, you know? No no I know what you mean yeah. Yeah yeah We'll er I've had some basics we got some nice, cos what we'll do if we have a set is stick it on the bench, we've got this foam cleaner, we spray it with the foam cleaner and clean it and when th Yeah that set comes down you see Yeah it's clean as he was when he was new. Yeah. He may be scratched but he's as clean. And then we just spray them with a polish and when they go down they're good. Yeah but I mean when our loads come in we've got a chap here that p just purely cleans them. Yeah, yeah. Well presentation is a great thing as far as er have you got a loo handy? Yeah yeah it's that first first door there. This one here? Yeah. Right we'll see you an hour and a half from now. Right, okay. if you're looking for one. No this is just a pr it's a private, it's not an ex-rental one,i it really is in mint, it hasn't been used a lot. And erm we allowed What that set there? forty quid on it, well th that's what I've gotta get for it. Oh But it is very clean, great pictures on it. Is it text that one? No it's just it's Basic it's basic but I mean it is a nice Yeah clean No I've got a reliable set. Hitachi chassis type job but er the tube's gone. Yeah. Well you see that was like mint that one. So I'm just after the tube really. Mm. swap places with this gentleman I can get him loaded up. Right. Looks like it'll be a brilliant one if you get it going er just the things. There Oh yeah. It's like the tuner's dead innit? Oh It's getting colder innit? Get through alright? Mm? Get through alright? That's a nice one. What's this Kaitung one? It's sold to those lads that just came in actually. Ah. It's not working. It's it's it's not a worker. No. I know, we're not er we ain't af we ain't afraid of a few bum workers cos we have got er good engineers like, you know? This won't tune in this one, it might be the tuner itself . But these aerial sockets on these Toshibas are in a, such a funny place that er Yeah yeah. See what you want is a little workshop out of sight don't you? Well I've got one in there but I'm just doing this as a to save me lifting it. Oh I see. Er no they're all about the same depth aren't they? Bring the through? That's the same, yeah. If they're gonna go towards the window shove something Yeah I know in between them. yeah. I is doing. Right, okay. Oh reckon they'd get rid of some of this stuff No I don't understand it Rex. I suppose they've got a, they've got a certain contract to take new stuff all the time haven't they? Yeah. I would've thought they could've like somebody with an older text, they could've took the old one out and shoved one of these back into it. Yeah I mean that is, that is current now, that's what they use now isn't it? That is their current model. Yeah. They use that chassis in Thorns and Bairds and things. Yeah. So what's the tube alright on that is it? Yeah it comes on, a comes on and then it shuts down so it's some sort of shut down fault. Yeah. We haven't looked er we haven't even got a manual for it. No. No no no. Well anybody that's anything like an engineer, as long as it's clean and tidy and not been chucked around That's right. they can fix it can't they? Yeah, oh yeah it's all fixable. Long as the tube's alright, that's the main thing. Yeah that's the main thing on that. That's a nice looking machine that one. Probably would actually wouldn't it, yeah. Which would leave us room for the What have you got one, one more to g two more. different. Put er that on top of those put a portable Have you got the little portable? like that? Two more? Yeah there's that one and one more. Wonder if they would go cos th n n they're no different on their ends are they really? Not really, no they're practically squares aren't they? No they a yeah. Which is the smaller of the portables? They're all about the same, there's hardly any difference in them. Hardly any difference at all. the blanket portables on the blanket. We're not taking the blanket all out erm from underneath all of them. Well we've got plenty of cardboard plenty of cardboard Plenty of cardboard, yeah. With the blanket though he would, they would stop them from moving like, you know? yeah. Yeah. Erm haven't got anything like a blanket And we've got them two to go? Yeah. Can't we put the bigger, the bigger of them in under my feet. I If you put them on their sides they're too . They'd go on their sides wouldn't they? Perhaps. If we had a blanket though we could have done that easy enough. Oh I see you're gonna turn them on their sides are you. catching on reasonably well for the time of the year? ? Yeah. Yes. They've converted people to it so they they find that they Well th they, they're used to selling cheapy stuff, they don't know if they can sell this, they've taken a couple on Yeah trial Yeah and they say you know that they've sold Yeah. I made myself a nice profit out of it. I think those two on the sides one on there er f put that on its side as well perhaps. Oh no it's not any better is it on its side that one. And Toshiba could go in there couldn't it and the other one on its side in there. What erm top to top to top Top to top yeah. And side to side. is easy we can pack We're gonna need to put something in between that. A bit of cardboard between that useful. Gotta fix that aerial back on. If I lift it could you slide that in And I've put something in there so we don't get any there Yeah. We're away. but er I can't work out where Well if you put that one across under that one and then I can get this one up through the middle, it's just the depth in the middle there innit? Yeah. Oh I see, put this one Over there. Alright? And then something in between these to stop any rubbing That's it. on there. I need a little bit of wedge at the back there just to stop again. The keys are in the car then? Wonderful sir. Alright? Excellent. Is your catch alright there? See if that closes alright. Lovely. Lovely. down on the axle. Smashing. Nice to see you again young man Yeah see you again. Cheers then. See you again. Got your hand sets? Got the hand sets? I'll just have a word with my chief accountant Got the hand set? Right. Right see you later. Bye then. Good trip. Thanks a lot That must be the the right hand set for that because two five five R seven B, the R is remote innit? All the others are T for Oh yeah? aren't they? Yeah. Yet we didn't we? So it was the wrong back then, probably. wrote to them complaints and No. they switched on alright anyway . Right do you want ? Well I've tried all those, I'll see what switches on, just do one more. Cos the tuner se seems to be working itself dunnit Yeah I mean I assume it's the same tube in this as the er Grundig innit? Is it? Yeah. It's a innit? Er Oh Mind you I think the Grundig was a little might require a Yeah. But this is only a basic set so I mean we'll know when there's a tube yeah seventy five and this is a basic ? Yeah. Let's try a different number Tried a different number Yeah yeah Yeah I thought maybe number one was worn out and Yeah, it's a knackered tuner innit? Oh colour's gone, why's that? blank screen then for a sec. Oh, that's where they that's where they are innit, round there. It's either that or ? No it's a little erm well I should think it's gonna be the tuner innit? Mm sixty quid and one tuner, I mean you know don't mind if it's just Yeah a couple of quid on them do you? And they go nice and No quick. Mind you it's had some spillage in here in the I F strip. Ah oh yes it has. Lots of spillage, that's probably the problem. Yeah you see it you see it all round the chips Oh yeah, yeah on it, yeah yeah all green, all green along there I wonder I was just thinking it's got all the bits in it to make that other one go It's still switched on so No it's, it's got all the power bits to make that other one go. It's got a tube that would make the the other one go. Dunno. But it's losing a set that way innit? See the tube for the Grundig I think it won't help No be worth trying won't it? Mm. And I could get fifty five or sixty for this Yeah. won't tune and erm Well I'll tr I'll try cleaning up that spillage. Shall I do it with a toothbrush and a ? You can if you like, yeah,i it pulls out, you know, you can get at it. innit? Yeah. Yeah it's not underneath it's just you can take that out the way Well there's twelve hundred quid in there. Mm! Well a little drink All in cash. Very good. Old Rex, I see he had a pile of fifties there. Hmm. He did s yeah he did speak to her. Yeah? Yeah. Well I've seen the toothbrush somewhere recently but I'm buggered if I can remember where. It's not on my desk Mike will be useful next time he comes up to erm he probably knows how to connect those extension wires into th on the telephone doesn't he? Oh I should think so, yeah. Do you want anything else to drink or are you alright for a bit? No thank you I'm fine. Thought I'd leave that little erm portable running this afternoon. Yeah. Nice little tube in that one innit?always good aren't they, as a rule? Yep. last night And those last three portables, he talked me into those going out the door. Jim that was. It won't happen again. No . I don't know though, I don't think they're quite as busy as er they profess to be. No not after that conversation yesterday. Get a few more like Rex and we've cracked it. Yes. Well we've got Terry And Terry, yes. he's waiting to come up for another load. Yeah. There's a, one of them little it's probably meant to be that colour, one of them little clay coloured things has got a black end on it there but er Oh yeah that's just erm A marker is it? a marker, yeah. You, you've left a message for Derek didn't you about his erm telly? Oh yeah. Mm. He phoned me last night at home and I said you got your message then? No well I'm sure his machine ain't working, it's knackered. This little erm Sanyo I've got on the bench in here, I think we'll just keep that for spares then. Right. that, it's funny innit? Oh Yeah, have a think about that one. Two little switches That one the tuner just keeps hunting so maybe the aerial cable's not connected to the tuner, we had one of them before didn't we, where they? Yeah yeah I'll just box this Sanyo up out that way. I'll box this one up again and er tuner. You didn't happen to see this new series last night Mulberry did you? Yeah. Weren't it good? I quite enjoyed that. I thought it was bloody excellent. Really out of the ordinary. Lyn wanted to see it but she slept right through that. Oh She said what time's Mulberry coming in, said oh it's just finished. Well that's the trouble on that one, alright? Oh and you thought that the other one fitted did it? The other Yeah. Oh. Yeah it's this little panel. So we can put that in the duff one and anyway then can't we? That's right. It's on that one erm it's off a text one actually I took this one off but er Well that's alright. If we just get fifty or sixty back for the That's right. we do fifty will tempt them, we'll lose a tenner but Yeah. we'll get fifty to spend again, that's the important thing. Yeah, true. Well they seem quite tempted. I can't remember what their names were, did you get their names again? No I didn't. I know it was Princetown T V but Yeah. Probably serve the prison I should think. Well I must remember to memorize this this time. Lovely tube on this innit? They're pretty good sets aren't they? Yeah. I should think it must be that one there or James Wattana Fancy living here in preference to Yeah! He must be doing very well over here. Very delicate. Don't suppose he's in his part time. No. Cor he is good, there's no doubt about that, look at that, right between the two. Whoops Ooh! oh dear. Cor Mm. Excellent. I know Jackie said well you shouldn't, you should try the Toshibas they're as good as gold those are. Telling the truth there. It's er Hitachis are the ones he didn't er rate at all. Oh yeah? Hitachi as well I think. That's a duffer innit? Yeah Still if we move them on fifty five quid I reckon nice set that'll tempt somebody. Yeah. Or we could buy another one then don't we? Yeah. Right Oh that's right, that's what I ordered off Eddy today, two S D seventeen ten. Yeah. That one. Quite a good set. Mm. No I think I can probably make t one out of two of those. Well we'll get three of them, that price. Getting these done aren't we, gradually? Yeah The non-working stuff. it helps dunnit? Yeah. I mean some of these you ain't even looked at, the Panasonic and things like that, it might be Yeah something simple. it's a bit long in the tooth that one. Still it's worth a look probably. It's thirty quid innit, to somebody like Jack ? Yeah. Looked at the Sony that needs erm Er a tuning fault or something innit? Yeah it's just got erm blank in it. That's another Hitachi isn't it down there the same as we've got over there? Oh yeah. F S T Tosh there as well. Shouldn't be too serious should it? We haven't looked at that have we, that one? I'm not sure. Don't know. Or is that the one that has got the burnt out bits in it? But I can clear these out for ninety quid apiece I think I'd move them just to get rid of them don't you? Yeah. Yeah. He lives in Bradford, my goodness what a choice. James Wattana In Bradford now is he? Yeah. Must like the food up there I should think. Ah that was a brave shot. Well they don't have a test signal then. Mm. Seems to have a bit of a Tried a tape in it? No. Just for a joke. Just sending out a pulse on them stopped there. You can always the tape It's actually running. That mains lead in front of you wants plugging in. Ah. Ah right. Stop, stop, stop Mm. I really should er phone Breezy up and call his bluff and find out Which of these is tuner? That's it. Yeah you run the tape don't you to tune these in. Run it without a tape I think it is to get the test signal. Still Oh is it? you'll find it that way anyway won't you? Should go all the way up and then back down shouldn't it? Yeah they do no they do go round. Pretty sure they do anyway,Blinking slow innit that direction? Or is it blinks fast in the other direction? Oh I see. Ah. One of them is a fast tune. That's it, that's fast tune. isn't it? Unless that plate comes off mm somebody's hit that with a soldering iron at some stage. Mm I mean there's no Yeah, I know you can feel those there, they're just more or less flush with the heads. Perhaps we could try another one and see er Are all heads the same Well it's the later type innit, that one? It's just that a lot of the heads have worn they Mm don't look to bad. Oh that's quite a tidy looking one as well innit? Yeah worth switching on anyway, quite a few of them have got these er carriages in? No well they're not sure if that's the whole carriage but Quite a few have got them in. See what they look like on this one. Oh it's a different ki different, totally different innit that one? It's got nothing underneath that one has it? If that bit can, you know, that's fixed there's nothing for the unless the tape just slides and sits On the plastic. on the plastic. Probably it does. Plug it in and find out shall I? Yeah. Looks quite tiny that one doesn't it? We might've been, might be pleasantly surprised with these. Yeah Right ah I'm gonna have a delve and see if I can find a similar model. There's one at the bottom there. Bloody hell! Rattling around. Oh this has got as well. Head's gone on it anyway,he you know I looked at them closely, there's nothing there at all. It's the same type as this type. Yeah. Well if the other one's just head and the it's not too bad. Let's have a look, it's a Phillips six four six two. Come on dad! I'll get you! Eh! Don't no Well have it Have a break, have a Kit-Kat I don't feel I I don't feel I need any doesn't it really? twinges taking off the hinges No then. Hold the cup darling cos Down a bit! Put it down a bit! Stick it in your ear in a minute won't I? Stop shaking aren't we at the moment? Pardon? We're lacking some tools in at home. I must have them What do you mean? at work I suppose. You have never looked in the garage there's a load down the steps. You dump it in there and then you suddenly expect me to know where it all is and I don't. Ah! It's wicked innit? Whee! My little , can you hold that a minute? Okay. Jonny there's a glove in there you can have look, there's a new one in there. New? Yeah it's brand new Brand new what? A glove, a golfing glove, it's brand new What inside? Yeah you can put your hand in it. It's just an ordinary little glove but it's for playing golf in. Dad, look at the golfing glove. It's nice innit? Mm. just take that down glass bowl was there and that tea pot underneath. I was only taking the out. Yeah but you would, I know you, you just start doing it Dad, try this on and see if it fits. Daddy try He's pinching your cake while you're looking Mm mm Oh oh no it's mine. twinges take it off the hinges we was getting nowhere What shall we Can I try this glove on? Oh it's just right for me. Then you can play golf Do you like that? with it on. Oh you can play golf with it. Come on have a bit of your no thank you. Don't you fancy it? No I'm not Oh. You can turn it inside out. Oh Jonathan don't Sorry. that's not very kind is it? Oh dearie me. Having a drink out the bottom. No, look you've got juice on the table and that's enough. Finish that cake if you want it. I don't want to. stop mucking about. Erm all you need to do . Jon! Enough. Let's see what's on this cos one day knock this cupboard aren't I? Yeah. Now that's the sharp blades there that belong to that knife thing so watch it. I'll be very careful. I'll see if it still fits in Go on then. with, only with the bag getting on. Yes, if you keep the bag on you'll be alright cos it won't catch you. Yeah. Let's see if it still fits. Ooh it still fits. Look at this! Mm. You should be able to press the That? That's it and then it should slide in there . I do like this Mm when it's got that on. Look at the blades! Even look at them when we're allowed. Mm. I won't, I won't I promise, I won't switch it on cos when it's switched on it's dangerous. You can cut yourself even when it's not cos this is so sharp. You've gotta be very careful. Yeah, put the cover back on just in case, cos you can cut yourself, it's never been used much and it's really like new sharp. sharp Mm ever so! Now I see what you mean. You can even move it up and down when it's when it isn't s you can really even move it up and down look. Yeah. Oh this is , oh that's useful. It's ? Mm. You don't know that did you? No I didn't. I did. Well I the end. Tomorrow's an ordinary day for you Frank isn't it? Yes. Steve is on his half day. Yeah. I think he'll probably only take a half won't he? I think he's dead keen to He's taking half day tomorrow and all day Friday. Mm. So I've got two full days So I've got to ring Phil and see what time he's going to pick up the freezer in the morning? Yeah. Mm? Or afternoon as the case may be. Dunno, some mutterings about Wednesday morning. Oh is it? So we still promised we'd see nanny and we haven't, and we still promised to go to aunty's and we haven't. in the way Half term week goes so fast so of all the things we were gonna do this week. really we might as well of gone away cos anyway See if it had been nice this Saturday we could've gone and got the wheel back on the caravan but Yeah wasn't it? Mum you'll the cupboards out. Yeah but then you had to have lunch, and I think it was three o'clock, and then we had to do No it wasn't! You don't half exaggerate sometimes to suit yourself. I am not exaggerating! What time did I take the dogs out? Half past two I think. Look mum, don't look now. I'll get it dad. Good boy. I got this actually. The whole cupboard's Apart from the side it's only hardwood at the sides. I'm ready when you want I'm going to this time daddy. I'm ready This is ready for daddy to give it to twinges taking off the hinges and we was getting nowhere Anyway you're not really had a cup of tea But this is a very hard screw isn't it dad? Dad look at that screw! Yeah. I will stand back on the stool by daddy. daddy I got them, where do you want me to be. Alright. Look how far I am your side. oh it's hard going this really is. There's nothing holding her I just haven't got the screwdriver with the right shape tip on it, you know? Oh. Well It's a really thin screwdriver I should have really. Wherever you want the screws to be daddy the little pot. Dad put the screws in the pot. With the lid Dad, how did you catch the shelf when er it was just about to fall? shelf Yeah, I just bashed it out dad. I'm bashing that bit out. Whoops! Sorry, I shouldn't do it the other side cos it wobbled. Pretty well look dad. Yeah. Cor! Daddy hold on to my back Yeah cos I sure might fall. Oops, and I Big noise isn't it? Dad I want to screw it. Yeah, I've just gotta get this bottom one out. Can you give it a tap underneath there? Oh yeah. That piece. That's it tap it up about here a minute. See this piece goes up? Yeah. Right, and give it a bash that way now. But the screw on the top cos I can only screw Mum, look what I had to do. Oh Mm I'm just seeing if I can get these two shelves out. Well you give it a good bash then. Look I'm turning it that way. That would be Yeah the ceiling I don't think it's fixed to the ceiling actually that, I think it's just purely a a framework bol nailed to the wall It's only a piece of wood that's do you know what that is? That's only So you could take the framework off the front Yeah I think that's just which leaves the superstructure on Yeah Screwdriver's Now that must be wobbly. That won't come off. Well these shelves won't come off. Should happen now it's got bended. Well Mum do you like the sound? No Then cover up the ears. it's okay now. It always amazes me build things like that Yeah. So how does that come off the wall, the wooden ? It's held on , it's gonna take some doing actually. What the wooden part? Those slats, this back piece Yeah are nailed to the wall Yeah and that's only wall Well, well I was just maybe wondering whether you might use a part of that to support the new cabinet Do you know that's only wall that bit is only wall. Ten to one it won't match. too terrible to get off. Listen listen please Oh it's, you know That's only wall Only wall? Yeah, it's only Right do for that cos might I don't whether, I'm trying to think if he goes I don't know, I can't keep up with him but I expect I think Don't fall, you're hardly on the stool Jon. Erm Ah! When they done those windows down the bottom there it sounded though they were in right next door. Mm. But you look there that's wall those bits should come out. Oh don't knock this though cos Why? Because look if it's Those are very useful. Do you realize that? You can have , you can take them Yes but the thing is what I would really like is get two there then waddle it in one there and then waddle it in on there. No I want them like that. Dad could you nail them like No I haven't got any nails have I? Why? say why I just haven't got any. Well I just want them there now I'm going to hammer them. So I suppose you want a coffee my dear man? Well I wouldn't say no, is that, that's reconditioned of course? Well They don't need to be reconditioned they're only about two or three year old aren't they, you know, And how much ? One ten plus the VAT One ten plus VAT! For the trade, they'll probably cheap innit? Oh it is cheap Innit? Mm. What is it you're after actually? Rebecca. Well she's lost her C D, she's lost her twin deck tape, she's lost the works, all been pinched. Yeah. Don't forget that one's sold Camera Steve, that midi-system. Is it sold? Yeah That's sold is it? And it's definitely a good buyer is it? Yeah. Oh. Oh well. Coming in tomorrow er Friday, yeah tomorrow. Oh right. Well she'll have to wait till Easter that's all, and when she comes back at Easter time Well you'll have some more in by, by Easter won't you? By Easter we should sort someth yeah we'll have the Samsungs in won't we, by then? Yeah, yeah. Yeah they're er Alright. Actually we've got there, two there we've got to check through Eh? We've got two actually in stock to You've got two to be checked over? Yeah. Bloody innit? Good picture innit? It is a good picture. Well I've got to be back by ten to eleven, we've got a bit of a battle going on with SWET Have you ? Yeah because they, they're y you know the Copper Dollar? Mm. Well they're taking all the power lines down in the village, or down through that part of the village which, fair enough, gets rid of the eyesore but they're gonna put now a bloody big transformer,abou thing about seven, eight foot bloody tall in, in the field right on the Copper Dollar Right. and originally they were gonna er mount it on the wall up against his lawn area where Mm people and all sit out erm the landlord turned round and said no way hos, I'm not having it there sort of thing. Of course then they change their attitude SWET said well alright we'll put it right down there in the corner. Now right down in the corner, bearing in mind my parents' garden shall we say is there and the field height is there Mm so the thing's gonna tower above their blooming Yeah wall for a start, plus the hum you get from these bloody things, in other words basically, as my parents spend a lot of time up in their top garden in the summer time, in the sunshine and all, you get the continual hum from that bloody Yeah. thing and I had a blazing row with them on the telephone And there's enough hums in the countryside without that. Well and er yeah, exactly. Look at this Frank see these are fast text it's got the memory on it, it's er one 0 eight, one 0 seven Oh I see. Memory text. Yeah. Well that's alright, yeah but a lot but it's a little faster in that respect Yeah. Yeah because my erm mark four had that, memory pages, it didn't have fast text as such. T X L rotate, I don't know what that is. what the number is. Yeah mine's got this on it, my er video one. Nice little set innit? Yeah You pick you pick out a code of numbers with this one Oh I see and then it'll memorize the next three or four pages from that one. Oh so it is a fast text then? It is, yeah. So this is the right hand set for it then. Didn't do it with the others, this has got a and a Ah right. Yeah that's what has gone on mine er you move along to wh with the cursor Yeah hit that and then you can have that number and the next four or five pages. Does it rotate along there then? Erm browse, what's browse?for this Well you don't need a here do you? We've got one. Oh you've got one haven't you? Yes. yeah. Did you put that up yourself or was it here when you come here? No we had it put up. You had it put up? But er we did it as a deal with a a bloke wanted a telly Ah well fair enough. Cos we're doing a s we're doing a system now for two hundred and ninety With two sugars? Yes please, two hundred and ninety quid fitted. That's very good. Good price innit? Very good, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, two ninety five all fitted. Er so it's er Oh well No, fair enough. Thatta boy thatta a boy. Yeah Becca had one of those pinched too. Very similar to that one down there, very similar. Yeah Liverpool you see, bloody kids twelve to fourteen years of age They've caught them have they? Only two little kids who was up in, well keeping watch on the outside, there were two in the house and two at the back, driving a bloody car at that age My goodness Yeah! She said it's appalling, she said, in Liverpool. We don't what it's all about No. , we don't know what it's a No. every bloody house, every house, I'll tell you here and now, has got fire, er burglar alarms fitted, every bloody house Yeah. down all these Coronation Street type houses, and erm one of her friends was on the telephone the other night and er this chap draws up in the car and she says I, I won't be a minute,and he comes straight out of his car, he said I'll give you one minute he said, I'll drive my car and come back down that ro up back to the telephone box and he said if you ain't gone by then he said I'll smash your fucking face in, that's exactly what he said to her. Cor! Yeah! Yeah Rebecca saw some chap going around, course Becca was mugged, I probably told you she was mugged in er Liverpool. No you didn't. Yeah she was mugged er ooh about six months ago and erm and she said she saw a chap walking around a fortnight ago with a gun in his bloody hand. Cor! Yeah! And she said erm where they have their big discos in the universities er you know, about two thousand five hundred of them come round of course they've got fire alarm systems there, then she said you get the underground so called Mafia, whatever you like to call them she said, they are chaps she said in their thirties, and forties, arrive in shiny big white and red Porsches this that and the other and deliberately, cos they're club owners Mm or paid by the club owners, deliberately smash the break glass course everyone's gotta get out, the fire brigade all come in Oh yeah. the, the police all come in and of course the kids are not gonna hang around No they want their evening entertainment, then they go off down, then on down to the clubs. She said it's horrendous up through Liverpool. You've got a button here, choice of fast or normal text, when you press the fast all the colours come on the bottom. Oh my goodness . It's a different hand set again this one. Mm. Brings it up Well I'm blessed. Does anyone want a cigarette? Not for me thank you. Do you want one Frank? Okay. There you are look the fast the r the number changes to yellow and the colours come at the bottom when you normal Marvellous they disappear and it goes to white. And do that when it gets to one two four again Mm the colours come up on the bottom again. That's interesting, I didn't kn didn't think you could cancel it off the screen, I thought it was there always. Ah! So that's the right hand set for that one. So how'd you get on? He, he can't because th these are a bloody expensive one Yeah. and these aren't so expensive, but I mean these we know are fifteen so these have gotta be twenty five, twenty six quid Mm. so he said it's across the board put four thousand quid's worth off him the other day and I only give fifty pence off he said so I can't do much for you. Yeah. So he gets it at four quid but Yes. Yeah. Or if we take this whole lot up to Malcolm, say that you know these are six quid across the board you know? Yeah yeah. Well we could sell them to him well we we'll end up with one hand sets for That's right yeah. Cos it's super, he was selling that for eight or nine quid you know. Cor yes! Yeah It might be worth giving him a bell to let him know what's happening cos Mm. Brand new Toshiba hand sets, give him the model number. The only problem is you see I'd like to try and get more Toshibas off him. He might sell a lot more if he had the hand units. That's true. We might be Toshibas do sell well don't they? We could do him a deal couldn't we with all, all Toshiba I'd say how much Toshibas. Yeah. Probably get the black stripe Yeah Well those two are the ones that is it? Yes. It's, he's got some erm oh what did he have there? Forgotten what he said now something else was cheap. He's got the little loop aerials at the back of portables, you know the Yeah for twenty five pence each He can do the er, if they've got any three thousand chassis for us if we want any. Mm. If you come across it. Oh the Toshiba, the Toshiba transformers, that's what he's got a good range of and he's written down Has he? the model numbers here as well. Oh very good. Is it on the fax coming through? That's transformers there. Two five five seven B it is, yeah. seven B that's the erm innit? Mm. What's the price of these? Hasn't it got a price on them? No. Do you want me to find out? No it's alright, no. Loads of speakers but er The nine three eight four, which one's that? Nine three eight three five hundred of them nine three seven two, he's only got ten left of them popular one that Ten left after our thirty? No he's only got ten left in erm Yeah. nine left now cos we've got one. He's got two hundred and seventy six of them but erm Yeah. two hundred and twenty nine then hundred and seventy five but I mean if we could sell them six quid a time well Yeah but as you say we wanna get the tellies off him first don't we? Otherwise he can just give them with the bloody tellies or trying to buy them with the tellies and the dealers have a lovely time Well yes. Well he could charge a tenner and the dealers would be happy wouldn't they? Oh yeah. He would too. Yeah. He'd charge eight anyway. And he said er these Toshiba tellies have a, a timer on thirty sixty ninety one twenty Oh yeah you set the timer and hit the buttons whenever you want it'll turn itself off off the Switch off yeah If ever you pick it up and er you get that bleeping noise of a fax somebody's trying to send Mm if you just hit the start stop button and just hang on to the phone it'll come through Oh right. after a little while. Well those Toshibas go with a bit more of a swing, they were a blooming nuisance before. I wanna try it on a one to see if anything's working Who had my monitor, Gary or Dave? Er Gary. Did you have that Phillips hand set long ago? I put it back in the box again. I'll go and get it for you. No it's alright I'll probably manage with it Well I think that's a bit prettier. Oh that's a bit livelier innit? It's more solid innit? I'll get you the hand set Mm should back. Perhaps it wasn't anyway. Think it goes by itself alright. When you get past it's not too bad. That should er do it. Oh that's still a bit high innit? Got the width there. Quite good these fast text ones aren't they? Yes excellent. Well you wouldn't have known fast text without the right hand set would you? No you wouldn't. said fast text on it. Do you want your picture back so you can see Yeah I'll put it on mix. Mix er I'm not sure what mix is on this one. That's it. Mm typical dark screen at the top. I don't know, you can't tell can you? No. Let's got back to another station shall we? Looks like it's alright. ? Yeah, that looks alright. Yeah that's alright. Yep. It's a innit ?it's just the edge of the screen innit? Or is it? Oh yes it's the black edge of the reflecting on it innit? Yeah, that's alright. Yeah. Yeah super. Brilliant. It's not brilliant but it's a lot better. Had to laugh yesterday towards the end of er our round, it was really tipping down, misty, fog, couldn't see a hundred yards I had this almighty s I said well I'll let the six iron, I did this almighty swing the ball went one way and the club went right up the top of a tree. It must've been fifteen foot at least up in the air teetering on a top branch. I thought oh my god, lost me six iron, all of a sudden crash, it came down. Old Louis he didn't know which way anything had gone. He said well I couldn't see any of that didn't even see the club go up the tree. different hand set works the black stripe. Does it? What one of Alistair's? Yeah, does it work everything though? Doesn't work that does it? No, it works the text doesn't work the colour the on screen display, one of them, innit?and one of them and that er and that. That one didn't work either gonna try and there's no on screen display on these is there? So Shouldn't think s won't work will it? This type. So these are the only ones we can't put them with. Oh right. All the later ones we can but I've got a couple more of these ones that work this one coming anyway so But it changes channel dunnit? And does it give you volume or not? Changes channel and does volume I think And and everything. Erm yeah that one does So I mean it'll do everything barring No that other one doesn't No. the one we got as a a master text one doesn't No. but one of these would. That one would. Right. So if we want some of these as well well we ain't gonna get cheaper to go with these whatever happens we know that. Yeah. albeit the wrong one. They have got manual settings on there haven't they? That's right, that's what I thought. I mean it's Yeah. you don't, how, how often do you use the brightness control on the Yeah yeah telly? Channel change, text 0 one four 0 one oh just gives hold dunnit yeah. don't work on that one then. I'll try one of these others. well we haven't got the right one for those then. Still Don't see so many of those now erm I should think this is the same as the non-stereo one, for hand set-wise innit? Yeah. Try that last one. Well it won't text will it? No. come in the bags do they, that lot? Yeah. Mm. Yeah bags. know what they go with but just give the bags. Nice little Yes. Mm This one doesn't even text. No well that's alright. We've got the two most important ones. I suppose there isn't a little knob on it that would just happen to work zeros? er no text well Very nice, So we've got one two three four five six seven eight nine timer You'd of thought it would erase that time on time off thing innit ? Yes. Yeah. hit again usually. Dunno. Maybe no I suppose it's cos it's the wrong unit is it? Could be I suppose. couldn't it? Yeah. Right. Has Jim been in yet? No. No. Oh put that back into store now. So when erm Robert comes in we've got one two There's three there I think. Oh yeah that grey one. Erm still got for Sanyos. Do they? Mm that's interesting. Is that Fidelity have we ordered bits for that or is that er Yeah we did. Well we tried to order a manual didn't we? Somebody wanted to buy it as a non-worker but I said well I said we'd ordered a part for it so Er now did we? I'm trying to think. That's right, we ordered a manual they couldn't get Oh yeah they've got one forty R on there but, I mean you look at the set and it says er where did I get the number? Fourteen 0 four R. Find out what to do about taking that band saw away I dunno. Yeah, I saw, I passed him this morning going down to the garage with some wood Was he? on his roof and all that. I mean there's all that wood we bought! Yeah. It would useful! Be useful in here, you know. Or e I wonder if he'll sell? No. I have difficulty some of them. They're always, I'm taking stuff away from them. Erm cos I'm a right bastard really I think! No, does me. But erm Hasn't got much to say to any of us. Find out about er you know, if that is going through we're gonna have to start flogging some of the stuff off to get some money back then. Yeah. He was on his way to the garage you say? He might bet there Yes. now mightn't he? Yeah. Should be there. So which is Paul's number at the garage? Oh, hello it's Frank here! Is erm is Alan there do you know?the little workshop, yeah. He's not. Who's that, Lloyd? Oh it's Frank, you know, from the darts team. Oh! Alright. Erm you could, yes, you could if you see him. Yeah, he he's got my number there, yeah. Alright. Cheers Lloyd! Bye ! I think I'll try him at home. Alright. This should be funny! I bet bloody what's her name won't talk to me! innit? Hello Sandy! Ho how you doing, alright? Is Alan about? Ah, right. Alright. Can do or I'll ring him later on. Whatever! Yeah, alright Sand. Cheers then! Right, bye ! I don't believe that at all! What's that? She said he's out and I don't know what time he'll be back! I bet Oh! she knew exactly where he would be and what time he'd be back! She, she's got him on a string ain't she ! She knows wherever he goes. That's right. Oh! Oh I tell you what he could have done for us have a look at that master that matchline thing. Yeah, well he's he's going to look at that for us. Yeah. Yeah. I think he was gonna get a circuit for it or summat. I must get a little tiny erm filing cabinet sometime. Well they reckon the weather's gonna be nice for tomorrow don't they? Says Yeah , bright in the morning clearing off look. So does this morning, but yesterday it was supposed to be fine all day! Yes! You know! We really got caught out then! Yeah. Is that all your there's a ca cartridge in there er, cost us, pick up one like you know er and there's this Japanese bloke, Pan Wang somebody te ten a month he turns out ! At one thousand six hundred and fifty pounds per cartridge! Cor! These my cu erm Alan's? No I bought it. Brave chap! See things in there make your hair curl I bet! But, what Yes. you know, you just wouldn't, you wouldn't go to that Mm. I mean that is unbelievable! See you're detached now, you can go to any level you like! Well yeah. Yeah. I can't wait to get back to detached, I'll go back into some big hi-fi! Heavy stuff! Can't beat like the . No. A pleasant sound. It's all stripped apart at the moment! I thought to myself then, I thought black spot rack system Oh yeah? , thirty eight quid! Er all the there's three shelves on it, twenty by eighteen I think they are. Er the Goldring one. Mm. Er, and the shelves were spiked onto the sa stand and, and the stand was butted to the floor. But I think, but that was just too big, I don't need all that bloody No. ! No. Well really I got buy something else off his stall.. Yeah! . I wanna try it with one of these three, twenty three hour systems, supposed to work it the last We might well do actually. He's had it played, no guarantees for eighty five but that's good! Is that with a guarantee? I thought, I dunno picked up a guarantee for twenty quid. Ooh! That much? Find it hard to take a chance for six months for twenty quid. So he's gonna take it and try it, play through the . Well done! Oh they do try it on! They do! They do! Well you're not wrong! Er ah er ah! Er ah er! You don't know what's on channel one do you, at the moment? Off hand? Er, I'm not sure. I can't tell with these blooming things! No I dunno. I'm just a all tuned in but I don't know what's on one. Oh! Er er Er, no! Well got double frequencies shouldn't you? Oh I dunno, got it? No. No it won't will it?mark is it? Yeah. See I've got one, I can see, cos that frequency's funny on this Go on to I T V, maybe that tells you on there. When you're on the right one. That's I T, channel three then isn't it? I suppose. Yeah. Th it tells you automatically then what station you're on does it? Yeah. Tune on to the next one then you'll be able to tell then. I usually cre Mm, it's going up. Four one three two innit? Yeah. Four one three two. That's four that's one. Oh I see, just carries on Well through! Don't it? Yeah. Just cha programme search innit, that was, I expect? And nothing tune four Four for four. cos that might not be what and it's up there then, perhaps, I dunno! Suppose it must be mustn't it? I'm just wondering Well I go through one of these and see what's on there. Have a look. Forget what programmes are what on there! Try these stops and . That's four then. Ah, that is four with the . Oh that is the one with the Yeah. So is one or two? Yeah , that's the one! Yeah. Well that'll work,. Yeah, getting it going, it's Oh! it wouldn't tune in, it was something to do with this arrangement up here. So, right that should Yeah they did work alright, they Which one's that? Oh yeah! Mm. I got another set, I've got just got going. Yeah, it's probably the erm ace head you know on the side? Oh yeah. On the other si Have to watch the light on that. Aha. Well That's a lot of light coming in on the back I think. Yeah. Cut off after number fifteen with tho the top one as well but I'll Yeah. Oh! I'll turn it off and er try it. See if the counter's going up and things like that. Yeah, the counter's going up it's er electronic one. Yeah but even so it's volt Oh! volt driven. Forged stop? Oh, I wonder why it says that then? That's five seconds, reset then . It's got that again! Mm! Record that Mm, it's not not rotating somewhere is it? See the caption's not turning round right,. What's that? Is it anything to do with this ? I can't drag away from it, while you're doing that. No, it's alright, we'll have a look. Do it later. Tube blew up. Well do they play? Does it play? It played for a little while, I didn't play it for long but it did play. Oh so, oh it switches itself off does it? Oh it's designed, it's giving me a fault . See it did play. Taking up. Wasn't bad play back when I fi oh it's not not doing as much as it did before now! Then catch it. Can't figure out what's actually stopping. Oh that's this one? Yeah. Yeah. Is that the drive belt as well I think. Yeah, it's probably the idler wants to be cleaned in it. Oh. Right. Right! Shall I do that from the top? Yeah,yo you can get up this ca the carriage only four screws and erm Right! You might get at it without the er where's the instruction? Does that wanna go from side to side does it? Yeah. Probably. Okay. Might even get at that one there. Yeah. Right! Also, that one could be that looks very shiny too! Right! Do I do it with that pencil thing of yours or with er Amber Clean I'll try Amber Clean Just give it Right! a little spraying and and wipe it round. Yeah, the front just hinges off at the top. It's not at the back of the here is it? It mi , it may do, why? Have you spotted something? Dunno if it's the second one down that way or not, but there's a crack across there. Or is i is it a crack or a scratch? This is the right one. Yeah, that's the right one. Oh I'll get my magnifier. Thing is, you're actually using, your eyes are not too good! Well I go get the magnifier to read the bloody magazine sometimes! It's ridiculous! I'm going back to the opticians with the , the new glasses I got are still flipping worse than these! No, it's just a scratch I think. Mm, somebody's been working on this though haven't they? The sound chip's in the wrong place. Crikey! Well this is high enough! Yeah, it's probably worth changing the control innit, to see what happens? They've evidently looked you can see where they've scratched to get a screwdriver through there to try and get the sound the sound out. Couldn't you tell with the meter er th th th the control whether it's worth it or not? Yeah, you should be able to. Yeah, but I don't think the it'll do what you want . Yeah, you'll have to. Mm! Want a se , want a screwdriver there? I got one there, yeah. ? Yeah, I got one, yes. Gonna turn it as well? Yeah. If you can oh, let's put it on. around from one end to the other that is. Yeah! Right! Right now one end to the other. Is it? Oh! Go that way. No. Well that's . I'll get there eventually! That's not reading through anything that one. That won't read through ? Yeah , I think so. Now, one end is joined so a bit. Okay? Nothing! No. So it was circuit then. Just try the one above cos I think they're oh wait a minute! I'm not looking at You don't want to go there. I'm not silly sod ! Right! Right, that moves. Not much there. It should go right across at one end. No! No that's Oh it is open circuit then. Yeah, it's trying to go that Yeah. way. See if I reflected to this one I'll show you what the affect is. Tu turn Tu that ? Yeah, turn that one, yep! Even the . Remember where you can get it back to that's the only thing. Oh! Oh it's back where it was. at one end. What are you doing this? Ah ha, let me just twiddle it. Hang on th check this up and twiddling time. Yeah, see this is the wiper this should well assure itself back to that one. Goes when you touch it there. Yeah, just touching the ends together. Oh! Mm! I'll try the other one cos I've got that in bits. If you can twiddle that one I'll er Yep! second one down. It reads totally different. That's it! Up one end down the other. More positive that one as well. Yeah. That's Yeah. what it should read like. So it's definitely on the circuit. So it's down to the chip and we haven't had the chance of being . We might have to, we might be able to get away without having to take the board out, if I if I use the old de- solderer might be able to just hook it out and put the next one in. Yeah but yo , that's what they did change, you looking for the fault? Yeah. Mm mm mm mm mm mm Ah ah! What was that in the ? I fo forgot now! Oh Feverack Oh yeah! Oh! Oh don't! Oh my good God! I've done the old all been done in the packing! Oh yeah? Do you know this bloody thing's jammed in the works somewhere, this control, it's fallen over! It won't come out! Swine! What a duff! Oi! Oh ! Oh I thought it was crack, it was only a hair anyway! Oh is it? Brushed it off. have to come off with it. Mm. Oh that's probably what's wrong is it, oh? Don't e too much! Just Got the control out anyway! Dad? Interesting old thing Where's isn't it? mummy? No so And why have you got ? I don't know what this is do you? Some sort of time switch. No, it's erm it's a bit of a clock daddy! Is that what it is? Mm, yes! Night and day. Mum! What's that you've got? Washing. Mm! Ha! That's an interesting old time switch that innit? Yes! We thought it was a bomb! I Mm. that's right! I there's a clock. It is a clock isn't it? There's a bit of the clock. Yeah, look there's a winder in the middle there. If you put a clock bit on there Yeah. you could wind that up. There's a big spring inside that! Looks like a bomb! Yes! But Oh it's a time switch with a bomb on! A could be I suppose. Yeah. She is It's in there she's never out the money in't she? Oh I dunno! Hang on! Oh! That's a long screw innit? Mm! It is. What is it? Oh it's a big sort of erm Rawlplug type thing. to the Oxfam shop that tall thing hopefully. What about this thing here? This one you don't like? I put, no this one I don't like. Oh those! They're Yeah. horrible aren't they? Don't like those. Can you take them out with that one. This thing is an old cape which Andy wore once. Oh yeah ! Yes! Sylv said that over it. What are those little things there look? Candlesticks, are they? Yeah they are, and that's a candle. This is Ken's though, when did he ?, that's the bedroom ? What's that? That's the bedroom. What's this? You have to wait a minute! Look what animals comes down! Is she filling over there? I don't suppose there's much been done? She was, yeah. She was, well she's doing very well! The shelves, I quite like these shelves they're nice! Is Petra still out? No, she walked down. Oh! Right, what have we got in this little box here then? That little , I know she won't ! Oh yes! Oh no! Don't get rid of those! No, I'll take them back to her. Mm? Do you want to get anything out? Mm. These are very good! These are er Yeah, just coming to those. What There's the most beautiful little owl too, look! Yeah. So they're either supposed to go to a car boot sale it would help. They're absolutely we can keep our and then we ooh! I haven't got a clue what they are, look! Look at these! Alright! Anything to do with the ? Well Mm. There's some chap's initials on all these. Mm! I'll take those that little teapot . Mm. Oh, can if I put those Put them where I do! Here! I don't know quite what this is! Oh! Isn't that strange! It's like a big suitcase! The pair of white mice are funny aren't they? Quite ! Now, if you lifted the lid up then I think you could Cor, I can smell them even without taking the lid off! They're very smooth! Erm Is that a teapot? Yes! I think that's pretty! . Loads of pennies! But they look like I thought we'd have a look through those, they look good! Mm. Take them up to. This thing . There's still a pound coin there look! Ooh ooh! Makes up for the one lost . I don't like the jug. They're the same. And tapes. Upstairs is the . Look at them knives ! Yeah. She thinks you, if he thought you'd turn them out, he probably likes them. Ah, lovely car boot sale stuff isn't it? Well it is really. If we could taking it for her it'd be worth it. We've got to that, people will really enjoy it. Mm. What if I got rid of the clothes and kept her stuff till we're ready to do a boot sale with it. Dad, but are you doing are recording all this? Yes. Oh! Lovely ! Oh oh no! In here. Did you look in here ? Look in there for anything? No, that's it. That? Mm. Rose on the tassel. Oh it's ideal stuff isn't it? Yes. What sort of stuff is in there? Okay that's it. Don't ! That little room's for all the jumble sale of course! That little red hoover, is that a car hoover? Yeah. Shall I hoover it? Do you want me to hoover it? Yeah! It's got a fuse in it and everything! Hang on! The second has got to come inside. Could we, you can play with the other one. Probably a good idea, yeah. I'll have to wash it out. Smells of fish! We'll need the hosepipe. Mm! There's a jar! And it and it's . You smelt inside it? Cor! Yeah. Might leave the lid open all the afternoon. Anyway, this is the this room! Certainly no weight to it is there? Just awkward. Just the and I, funny we put it in the car and Jackie Mum that had her new neighbour from next door came out to give us a hand he was off taking it back in the house again! Oh no! Ooh, and we said what's he trying to do? Ooh I know! Put it back in! That's . No. I will sort these , or should I? That's your belt isn't it? Yeah. Could I put them in the soft box? Yeah. Well that's good! That'll save me . Look at this gigantic screw! Oh! And these little black Ah! We'll try that on Mike. They're nice aren't they? I like that sort of thing! I might keep those for myself at home! Is there two of them? Yeah. Yeah. There's one up there. Oh nice! I think we'll keep those over there. Yeah. Oh that's a relief I thought! Is that ? But you know, inside is a gigantic screw! There's some It's a big Rawlplug. screwdrivers there as well. Yeah, but it's a big screw in ! Yeah. They're both , you could do. Yep! Yeah! Yeah! Do your a real good screw isn't it? Yeah! Very ! Yeah it is a screw. And, my mum would go er oh look you wanted to know what it is! Frank, what about these earphones? Shall we see if they're any good? Yeah! You plug into the telly?. Ooh!! Dad, look at that, a gigantic screw! Yes! Isn't it? That's a big Rawlplug on there. No it's a big gigantic screw! I think. It is isn't it? A long one! Yes. What does it actually do? Well you know when we had the ne , the new roof on the warehouse? Yeah! And that's how they screwed the the roof on with those. Er, yeah, they had a big electrical drill and they screwed them to the roof with those. Anyway, this could be fun! Oh yes, here's a jacket look! I thought I'd keep that, if ever I wanted to go fancy dress or something it's ever so pretty on! Yeah. I don't remember Sylv wearing that do you? Perhaps it's new, she bought I expect she bought it in the States I should think. It's got one of those kind of belts with that Ah yeah! and some Nell Gwynn stuff. Yeah. Very pretty! Dash that . And, she said would we like these shirts? That's just a T-shirt and this Mum! is a new sweatshirt. Mum! You remember when they screwed it in daddy's old Oh they're nice! roof? That's nice innit? And put some new big tiles on the They're new, they must be. big roof mum . They would be! Mum I, listen! Yes? listen! Do you know Yes! Yes! Yes! when Erm, they put some screws in the roof, yeah? Well this is one of them! Is it? Big! Oh well you can keep it in case we need to screw up the roof again then. Big isn't Aha. it though! Right, those things then can go up in one of the drawers, I think they're . Yeah. Good! Did you find to test them? I don't know, they might fit in the telly. See if they're working or not. Can you bring me the things up we can't find . Am I right? Do they go? Yeah! . Now plug it in there. Yeah, they're fine. Just keep them for the telly then. That's an idea! Yes! Alright then. Save using my good ones. Just get these out. Oh the they're keeping that wood! Oh well, that's nice! Yeah! The erm he said soon they want to do for the room in the porch there. Dad! Can't you hear me? Ah you're talking to me! You shouldn't have done that you see! Yes, what is it love? Up through Wales it said! What rain, up through Wales? Yeah! You listen! Frost in Scotland? Yeah! What have we got in Devon? Oh, six degrees tonight! Rain tomorrow. Rain tomorrow, aye! You're recording it. I know you are! You're recording it! Yeah, it's plugged in and over there! Right! Mm. Going! Wash your hands! Ooh ooh ooh! Daddy! Daddy! Thank you. Ooh! Now mummy said that this was some special mixture for you. Oh! Dunno what that is! Must make bubbles I should think. Oh ah. Yep! Just nice! Ooh bubbles! Just that put some in see if it's real bubbles! Did you see Sylvia's cats today? Mm, yeah! Don't go in that! Out! Is she getting this hou house ready to move? Yeah. Just fill it up. Wow! Oh these! And yo yo well how did you know that they're ready to move then daddy? Well because I work with Steve. That's how I know that they were ready to move. Cos you went to see them? No, I haven't seen the new house yet. No, you all went to today own house till they kept you know! They er What the house you went to today? Their old house. Yeah. Have you seen the ol have you seen what's inside there? Yeah! How? Mm mm mm . Well all where it came from. But do you know what they did? They gave us some swords too! Yeah, I saw those. Ha! But what they wonder why they gave us some swords! Mm. Perhaps they got too many! Yeah, he ke he save, he keeps swords. He saves those. Well oh do they save them? Mm. Why do they save them? Well he collects things like that. Mm. They collect things? Oh I do like these bubbles! Look at, that's ! Don't go and yell! Did you get in that house? Yeah! I meant having to curse now and again. Well what was that problem then? I just put it on. Oh pressed the wrong one. Yeah! Put it on why did you have to leave it on? Right, I'm gonna tip this out now. Alright. Ow! Could could Come on you! Right! I'm gonna tip this so soapy water Ooh! Daddy! What? You should of did that! Why? Then it needs some more in now! Well you can put some more in. But I don't want you to do it! That? It's alright! You can't leave it there to get cold! You may as well put it in the water. Well can't, if I did it that way it would use your because it might all, take all the bubbles out! Oh! That's, that's it. Ooh! You can't see the . The water can't go through. Oh! Yes l How's it going? Oh not too bad. No! Ah ah ! Let's have a look at the first then? Got rid of that cylinder thing have you? Yeah! Three, mm. Did you bring the machine with you, by the way? With that base or not? It didn't have one. It didn't have one, right! I didn't have one. It's erm but I erm, I have actually ordered one. Have you? Ah! Mm. Mm. Mind you, it's twenty, twenty five quid for a base but the thing is these that particular tube in there is in most of those tissues isn't it? Yeah. So and they, what they will start to get a bit low so that's, I mean if erm if that one ne , if he comes in, he'll probably be here Monday. Yeah. Or Tuesday erm That one, just gonna have a little look at that one. I think it's the same base again. Yeah. Oh well Or the see if I can get them out and do this. Mm. If I move this bre straight back is that enough room? Ya,. That's alright. This one's dead I believe. It's got Oh, yeah I do , I don't remember what's er I think it's well it's three isn't it, altogether? Yeah. We got a nice, cheap supply of Toshiba hand units now! Have you? Yeah. Six and a half quid a throw. Cor! Brand new ones. Oh! Mm. I just bought one for that twenty erm that twenty four inch I've bought, he was What fast text? Yeah. Yeah. It was er twenty odd quid. Yeah. Do you ever deal with Grandata With who? Grandata No. They n , do chips mainly, chips and transistors. Yeah. No I Erm I think these quite common, you know the erm T D A four five O five. Mm, yeah. They're like six quid from H O S and they're thre Yeah. three quid a piece from Grandata Oh are they? Yeah! Their stuff is, sort of half the normal price. Wonder why that is then? Dunno. You just send erm they've got our credit card details and we just phone them up and it's there the next day! It's half the price of normal stuff! It's always good! Mm. Oh bloody hell! And the T V make. Is it? Yeah. They do things that you don't normally get from average places No. you know. Ah! Very useful! We still haven't seen anything of that chip yet, you know from Eh? Fergie hasn't sent that chip yet. What, sorry? Fergie hasn't sent that yet so Oh he said it will be. Well I'll have to pop out won't I? Oh! Seeing that one what di , what did erm what are they running out at? Haven't we got any left? We haven't got any left at the moment but Aren't they ? No, his transformer's O C, and C D don , doesn't work. It's a wrecker really that one! Aha. Only I've, somebody asked me about one with erm S C B, B grade one or whatever Yeah. they are. There's a lot more to come down. Yeah. So they will get some more. Alright. What are they like service manuals, Toshiba, price-wise? Er, we can Er , well we get stuff well, actually I've bought a couple out my case. I'm trying to get one for this model here, we have a lot of these erm similar chassis in them. What model is that? This is the new stuff I think. It's probably too new. Twin amp power supplies, he uses that erm Two O four. Oh well I'll have to try, try keep going down to the courses down to Toshiba. Yeah? Mm just They hold them in Plymouth do they? Yeah. Yeah. They do all the bloody . You haven't got that patch lead through yet I suppose for that No! I dunno why that never arra I mean it's not a problem, it's Was it two one five volts then cos I'm tuning , comes on okay but by the time you've tape wrecker that was! Yeah I remember, ooh! Something flashing the picture. Always useful, for the future because we'll be getting a lot Yeah. of Toshibas through. Well this is older stuff you see. Yeah. The two five eight, that's the one like I had weren't it? Yeah, I've got them round here but it's a label. The other, throw it away. Two one nine. Say that's erm mm. Two one five. Mm mm, we have lots of two one fives and two one fours. That's a two one nine. Oh! Goes on lower levels there. Mm. So erm keep the, well I'd like to keep it. Can you copy that off? No, I work i I'll copy that off, yeah. Might come in handy. Yeah I'll get the machine under. Right! This thing you've got, it ought to go to Devon. What this? Yeah. Just gotta work it out er Do you want a copy of these? I've got that one? Have you? Yeah, I've got that one. I've, I went into . Went in there. A actually I, I went next door in the bank yesterday and the bloke in there sa one of the blokes said can I put this up here and ? Yeah. I walked in there and I can se he had a he had a er some copies and and er he was getting one in the bloody phone! It's gone. We went the bank the other day and er the assistant manager was showing me a picture of his Range Rover. I said I recognize that Range Rover I said, left hand drive innit? It's co I said it's come from Dubai or somewhere? He said, yeah! I said Steve used to own that. He said, he didn't! Really upset him! I said, yeah he sold it to some bloke out Ivybridge for er erm off, off road racing and stuff. Oh he was really Oh did he? upset you know ! I said did it come from Ivybri ? Yeah, he said it did. Oh dear! Ha! Oh! That put him off! He was gonna spend a lot of money converting it back to right hand drive and I said it's air conditioned and everything innit? He said, yeah! That's right, that's the one. Mm. Oh no! That's just, no isn't it? Erm de depends whether it's path or not. If it was path it would point one five wouldn't it? Mm. Point one will do, thousand volts then won't it? Mm. I'll see if I've got one out in the van. I say, I'll pop in on the old . Yeah! Certainly, yeah! So I I'd do it today Fix you up with something. but I'm a bit pushed for time Yeah. today. Cos I'm The F S T's Cos I'm always, I'm always down here you see,e anyway. Yeah. The F S T ones with the guarantee about one fifty, but that's Yeah. about a four hundred could set you Yeah. But, we get cheaper ones as well. Yeah. Alright! Alright! Lovely! Cheers then! Two boxes from Toshiba handsets. Ah yes! Have you got any zero one two seven? Yeah. Well actually I want some Toshiba zero two eights. Have you got some? Yeah. Got some. Ninety pence each, not too bad I suppose. Cheap! And he dropped in a twenty seven inch Sony this morning. But it took should of taken four of us to lift it really but Somebody dropped one of them? Yeah. It was a struggle for two of us to get it out of the car and weigh a ton don't they those? Yeah. It's only the tube isn't it, where the weight is on those? Well . is a bit whatever. Does it fit there? These bits Yeah. Yeah, it's like a crank case innit? Bloody thing's blown everything in creation! Is it? Mm. Mm. Blown that blown blown that, blown that, that one's gone. Sue wrecked it for us! Oh! Oh I'll do it myself. Hundred and fifty ohm. Think I've got one of them, yeah. In fact this particular chassis I've never had er never done any work on. That's why you said about that mod just now it's er it's all green to me! I mean I'll, I'll have to find out about that. What I'll probably do is try and get some running, I'll take that one and that one Yeah. er, and then bring them back when they're ready. But if Right. this one don't go either I'll probably take off of there. Er oh I got my didn't I? That's the last of that. Right ! Get some more of those. Keep us amused in the winter months, er it's er gone quiet. I say, they're both the same board. That one's fixed. So is that one. Yeah,th th th the guy thought it was erm spot killer circuit fault but it's not a monitor fault. Yes I know that, yeah. Cos one board works differently than the other. Does it? This is the same board you say? Same game, yeah. And er, it says the fault on both so we keep Er er, two two different faults. This will shut you down to a spot will take And the scan away and then it's that, that's that board? That's that one. Yeah. And the other one, I think, when it shuts down it's just sort of se a semi-sa er scan . Devon T V, good afternoon! Just about! No. Right! Yeah! Yeah. No, you saw Steve actually, he's actually moving house today but erm any chance you can come in Monday? No. Right! I'm I'll I can't manage it this side of the weekend. I'm on my own here today, you know. Erm what was it you actually picked out? Right. Right. Right, okay. I T T, yeah on the mo I'll go and have a look, make sure it's still here cos a few went out yesterday. Er, this is a ninety two which is a non-remote I think a remote one went out yesterday. Yeah. Oh, I know the one! Yeah, that's still here. It says remote control on the top but it's the wrong front, I think, on it I saw yesterday, yeah. Yeah. That's, that is still here, yeah. Right. Er whereabouts are you? Timbersfield. Gonna be a bit difficult, we don't erm don't actually go that way. No. Erm no, I'm normally I'm, funny I was over that way last weekend cos er, you know, pop over to the beach and things. But I'm not over there this weekend, bit tied up with it. Yeah, I know. I should be on a golf course really! I'll hang on to it anyway erm so that it's safe, you know? And er five o'clock. Yeah. Okay. Right, lovely! Thanks a lot. That's it. Oh yeah, D T V D T V alright? Okay. Bye now . Do you want my number? Oh right! I'll give you our er Erm Ooh ooh! Just go in your Cortina then? Ne nearly anyway! Nearly ! Yeah, just! Lovely! Er, I mean that's the only thing about it. Oh er! This thing that's where I'll be . They're remotes aren't they? All remotes, yes. Got two bits of string. Probably got a bit of maintenance wire somewhere. Cheap repairing a fuse they should be about right shouldn't it? For the er repair? Cheap tube, I mean. Oh yeah! Yeah. Mm. They're . A tube. I'll er look out for some tubes, for you. Yeah, but it's just really for the making up for the odd one I Yeah. really. Might be able to get one board out of the two mightn't you? Those market boards. Yeah, well I mean if you've only got to the one machine you don't need two boards necessarily do you? No. Except er for spares. Now where are they gonna go? Ah! Down below the bunker I think. I've got miles of telephone cable. Alright. Yeah, I've got a Cortina estate, I mean they're good old work busters these aren't they? They are aren't they? Yeah. I did quite well with this! Se six hundred pound, only forty thou , well less than forty thousand on the clock! Mm! Very good! Which wasn't bad at all! I got a two litre G L. Yeah. Sixteen hundred, well it doesn't pull sometimes but it's very economical! Yeah. Got some slips on the er Yeah. I've got your . Okay! Right then Frank! Okay John? I'll give you one of our er cards. Okay,, I'm on the card Right. here. Okay. Thanks Frank! If you hear of anybody that wants a any, well a as I say I get to the point where I've got to need the work somebody, you know? But er Yeah. I'll see how things go. Well we haven't Mind you, it's always the sa like it's the work th getting on with the machines I can sort of work through the Yeah. the summer really. Yeah. But er come sort of January it starts getting tighter and tighter. Yeah. I think it's a question of hanging on until That's right. Ha! Bu but you normally start . Not so much money coming in these days. No, I mean we're, we're ticking over basically but Mm. er Yeah. Well you presumably ke presumably kept a lot of your customers and to do Ta oh, we've got a lot of new ones actually. I haven't Mm. seen many of the old ones. Haven't you? No. Since that advert, I mean we've picked up customers that would normally go to Bristol. Yeah. And they find it easier to come here now. Yeah. They find it very difficult to get into Torbay to try and trade cos it's very, I mean it's another hour on the trip really isn't it? That's right. Going to Torbay just for Well that's what the people have got to measure it up against isn't it? People up at Avonmouth haven't Yeah. they really? But er and I suppose your problem is competing with them really? Well we, we have the same price structure as them, so You do? it's no different really, no. Oh that's innit? Some people if you do that you'll Yeah, we should do alright. Well you got , got to take We got a lot of Plymouth trade now. Yeah. That's good! Mm mm. Well yo your replaced really . You corner i unless somebody opens up in Plymouth all the people that come here. Yeah. Mind you, you could always open up in Plymouth as another branch couldn't you? That's right! Alright John! See you Frank. Nice to see you again! Bye bye then! Bye now! I think when we take that off. Right. I haven't got a room for and that bloody Yeah. Metro so frigging small! Yeah. Er I'll take that one when I bring that one back I'll whip that one away. Okay. Alright? Yeah, lovely! Seeing as I'm sort of got half into that one really. Yeah. That one's alright. I've put that I've tipped that like that on the board is it alright? Yeah. Good! Oh it's fast text as well, oh that's good! Yeah. Well I haven't got a handset but Well we've got a handset somewhere for it. text as well. Right, I'm gonna go! Right. I left my cards there you can have. Oh I got them, yeah. Yeah. Attention! Library books. All library books are to be returned by Friday. Haven't got any. Return the books to Mrs . return borrowed books in September. So there. So, Emma. Oh sir, I've got a message for you. Thank you Karen. at the toilet. I've got a message for you as well. behind. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for two messages. And I've got a message . Thank you. Lee and Dean. Anybody seen Dean today? Thank you. Gillian, you were late? Sir? get a late slip? Pardon? Did you get a late slip? Will you please remember to do that for me . Has anybody seen Dave this afternoon? Gone on an English trip. Has he? Thank you. Is ? Yes. Jane's here. you here? Yes I am. Erm James , Karen? Yes sir. Emma? Sir. Christine and Sarah not here. ? Any idea? No. Well yes, from the neck up.? on holiday. Pardon? gone on holiday. has gone on holiday, right. You may go. , how did you did you find it, going back to a heavy engineering plant like after having been at for a while? Well obviously erm the work that er one was engaged in in was smaller than that er produced by Brothers. Mainly because Brothers were attached to the shipbuilding industry, and the making of ships catapults, er arresting gears, er submarine work, erm telemeters for ships. Erm but of course they did other work you know, which was of a general character. Er and they were what we would call medium to heavy type of er engineering. Er but the work was good. Erm for example, on the on the er catapults, we were capable of making a catapult erm that was so efficient, that on one particular occasion the Americans and the British Navy had a competition to see how many planes they could put in the air er in a certain number of minutes. I think it was ten minutes. And er the British catapult came out on top. Erm we had a full load you know, in the air before the Americans er were three quarters of the way through. Erm and that was using their own U S A er catapult. And was that the kind of er was it still all mainly military type of work that you, you were doing, even after the war? No erm part of it was military, or admiralty rather. Erm most of it was the er for commercial work. Erm it took some time you know through the mid fifties to run down the wartime contracts. Erm some firms needed about ten years er before the contract, the wartime contracts were eliminated. Er and fulfilled. Er but Brothers er took time to get over that and er but at, at the same time were using their sales representatives to go abroad and to gain work you know, for the commercial aspect of the company. And they were indeed successful. Er in as much as they maintained the, the labour force. Er at one time there was just over about a thousand people employed in Brothers. That was the total complement, including the . Erm at the time when I took er office as a shop steward, er there was approximately two hundred and fifty apprentices and er there would be about six hundred shop floor workers and the rest er were complement to the staff. The drawing office and the er er dealt with the money side of the company. Finance. But erm the, the contracts that came in erm were in the main for the ship stabilizers. And erm Sir William who was the designer of it er had designed the stabilizer in such a manner that all sorts of er materials were required for it. There was loads of levers and, and er er crossheads and, and different things that gave plenty of work to our colleagues er including the housing you know, which was a huge er er piece of er welded equipment you know, built into the side of the ship. And the slides that were then machined and put into it so that the, the, the, the arm of the, the stabilizer could slip into the water you know. Erm was all fitted into these er containers. And it gave lots and lots of work to our colleagues and you know, when, when I say that er I think I made a comment that at that time, er had made the, the, the comment about er the winds of change and that er you know we were never better off, well really the unemployment figures were so low at that time that it's to my mind you know, a truism. Er notwithstanding having said that, er we were always of the opinion in the shop stewards' committee that if a man left, we would then go after the employer to re-engage someone else you know, or engage someone er in his place. And the employer was quite responsive to that. And so it was no problem at that time. But as we gradually erm worked our way into the nineteen sixties, er there were new technologies er brought into focus in Brothers, and the design particularly in regard to the stabilizer, was one thing that er brought about a dramatic change er not only in regard to design but in production. The Swedes at one time, they designed er a stabilizer which was er a type hydraulic rather than a mechanical hydraulic er er stabilizer, and subsequently all the materials that I was talking about, the levers and you know, all the rest of it, were not required, and it shrunk the size of the thing er so low you know, that er the British manufacturers had to look, because the Swedes were then in the market er in a competitive way to take on Brothers or anybody else who were prepared to er produce them under licence. Er and the Italians at that time were producing them under licence from . So the management looked at the, the thing very critically and they, they designed a new stabilizer erm which did away with the whole housing, which did away with the cross er crossheads and the slides and it was so easily produced er that we were then seeking to, to sales representatives to go out and look for other work. So that created a problem and we then found that a number of people were leaving Brothers to seek their fortunes elsewhere because the work that they liked to work on and you know traditionally they'd been on it for years, er was no longer there and er subsequently there was a slip in the numbers employed. How did you feel about that yourself the, the way the machinery had changed er and your, your trade was obviously having to adapt to that ? Well erm I took the view that er two things were happening. There were new forms of technology coming into existence then, one, we had moved away from the automatic er type of machinery to what they called er digital controlled and numerical controlled machines. Not computerized but digital controlled. Where you know, the readout on the lathes etcetera er were easily seen and er easily operated. Er there were new types of tools brought into being, er ceramic tools for example on the vertical boring mills. Erm they were used. Er I wonder if you could describe that in about er for the layman if you like. Well they, they had gone into the production of er steel er turning er in such a way that er they looked for the best possible tools er in order, one, that they could produce the item more cheaply as far as the employing class is concerned, they want to produce it as cheap as they can and probably sell it the dearest. Erm but this is more or less, indigenous within the engineering industry, there is even inherent within an engineering mind, and I'm not with the planners or the technical experts, but even in the ordinary lay engineer, he looks to be able to do the job more efficiently, with the materials that he has in hand er and possibly introduce a new type of tool if he can get the proper material, and likewise the employer was doing the same thing. Erm and so therefore er they, they knew tools that they had been using since the period of the war, erm were gradually being overtaken by the new types of ceramic tools. Er for example the ones that they fitted on the, the vertical boring mills, were round er in nature, bolted through the centre to a tool post and subsequently when they went into action, they were so hard you know, that they could outstrip the existing type of tip tool erm because the, the material itself stood up better to the cutting flow er er rather than the, the tip tool which was inclined to chip. Er and, and so therefore we were entering into a new phase of technology not only in regard to new types of machinery, but also to the tooling. And then accompanying that of course erm there was the introduction of the er work study personnel. The management er sought to change the type of incentive scheme that we were working on. Because of the new innovations that had been installed. And because also that it was er partly the, the directors' money that was being poured into it at that time, we knew all these things, and they were expecting a, a return back from it. Erm that er the er management er agreed to introduce a work study system. Er now that was met with a great deal of er antipathy. When I say that er the existing bonus structure er although unrelated to time, was certainly related to the man's pay packet and it was given in the way of an advice note with each job, and a price attached to it. A price. So the man could calculate exactly what he was earning you know, hour by hour if not day by day and week by week. Erm so it was, it was a, it was a paradox. The money was removed and the new element of time on a job was applied, and er this wasn't done easily of course because when they introduced the work study consultants, erm we found it necessary, particularly the shop stewards found it necessary to have consultation with the management. One, to eliminate any feeling of antipathy er to the introduction of any new incentive scheme, but more so er to give confidence to our members that whatever happened, erm there would be a benefit. Because you know money-wise because we were not content to sit back and see er schemes being introduced that, which were going to act as a deterrent to er our members er being able to earn wages er on incentives and so therefore erm what happened was that we agreed that the consultants er head personnel manager would come down and talk to each group of people who were being put on to the incentive scheme, one, in order that he go over everything with them in regard to its application, and two, then answer any practical questions er where our members may find that there could be difficulties. Er one, in regard to how they would operate it and secondly in regard to what would be expected of them, perhaps if they were attached to one of the older type machines and not the new machines you see. Erm because new machines were costly and, and er you know, you're, we're talking in terms of a milling machine for example costing something like twenty five to thirty five thousand pounds. But the change wasn't radical, it took place over a period of er I would suggest er maybe about six or seven years. Until all the old type of machinery you know, was overtaken by the new. And so whilst we were conscious of the fact that erm management were pursuing this policy to introduce the new system, we were just as conscious that we were going to protect our members er and have prior consultation, and that's the operative and effective word as far as shop stewards are concerned, to have prior consultation, before anybody accepted going on to the scheme. Now the management agreed to that policy er and subsequently erm the, the main machine shop was the first er er department to go on to it. So the targets were set er and a new basis of working agreed to mutually with the management, on the understanding that er the existing piecework supplement, erm would be multiplied by three, and that meant that our colleagues were er able to earn something like er three and sixpence old money an hour, if indeed they met the target bonus. Erm on the basis that er we were, when we were setting the, the targets, the time was set by the work study personnel erm and then the operator was able to obtain a trial run on the time given er and if at the end of the work, he was satisfied that he had made the target bonus, or near enough, or if he was satisfied that, given a little extra opportunity to go back onto that job should it come back again in the near future, then he would, he would see clearly that he could make at least fifty percent er which was the target bonus, and probably more. And so after a while erm we found that, apart from one or two minor anomalies, er that our members were able to achieve round about forty seven, forty eight, forty nine percent. One or two instances that were favouring the fifty percent. Erm but, but the stewards were told that er er with all the changes that had been implemented, that our members weren't satisfied. And so erm we went up, I think it was about six months after it was introduced, and negotiated an increase on the bonus element. And er that added er to our members pay packet something like another fourpence an hour. And er they were quite happy about that. They were quite happy. do you remember the time though as being, you, you certainly imply that it was a, a time when there was a quite a bit of unrest perhaps at the complexity of the scheme, as much as anything else. It was quite a new thing er in itself er you know it's, you, like I say, you've implied that er there was at least some degree of unrest on the shop floor. Yes. Well one of the, you see, one of the strange things that happened at that time, traditionally engineers, and I think I said this in my previous statements to you, for example in where there was no bonus ever adhered to, er our members looked at their, the daily production er er routine, that any interference as far as time was concerned, by the management you know, would be an intrusion on their sacrificial rites, and therefore it wasn't tolerated. Erm they could have, to my way of thinking, have engaged in piecework or a reasonable incentive scheme, set with times and everything else, but er they didn't do that. Alternately, in Brothers, when I arrived there, there was an existing piecework structure implemented, although not everybody was on it. And that created a difference of opinion between certain of our members who were not in receipt of any incentive payment, as opposed to those who could clearly indulge in it and, and, and make a reasonable er er profit out of it. Erm when the work study consultants came in, er we inquired as to one, whether their scheme was going to cover everybody because we were not satisfied that the existing scheme gave everybody the incentive that was required to keep people in harmony. And so we had discussions with them and I can tell you, you know, it was at least six months before the consultants ever made any specific move to introduce the system as such er because of our overtures to them, because of the fact that we asked regularly to meet them and to consult on various points. Er one mainly being the, the fact that we wanted an overall scheme to cover everybody, including, including a payment for the lowest paid labourer in the shop. That meant it went across the whole spectrum of the workforce. Ultimately we were given that assurance and er we were quite proud of the fact that, you know, the members had gone along with us on the proviso that we had got that principle you know, to establish. And being successful in that, we then went forward to seek its application. But er one of the paradoxical things that happened was that immediately men are faced with, for example, someone standing beside them with a stopwatch, I was going to ask you about that. How people that how people responded to that Yes. that kind of Yes. Well that created er a great feeling of ambiguity in the minds of our members, erm mainly I think due to the fact that some of our colleagues you know, may have been a bit er apprehensive. Er mainly because in the past they didn't have the proper equipment to do the work that they were engaged on anyway, and although their own minds would clearly tell them that they would identify the work with certain equipment you know, that was up to date and you know, would make life easier for them and be able to produce more, I think some of them er er their minds were overshadowed by the fact that er there was a degree of mistrust between them and the management, that they would ever get the proper equipment to do the job. However er during the course of our er dialogues with the management, er and I must say this that er they did introduce er whenever asked, new equipment, new tools, they did everything possible to make life a bit easier for our members er in that respect. And then it was clearly seen er that not only were the changes in the, the er financial er arrangements for the introduction of the bonus scheme, with the introduction of a further fourpence and hour, with the introduction of the time factor on the job, as opposed to them starting, we'll say, round about forty seven, forty eight, forty nine percent, the movement was then into the fifty percent bracket, fifty five percent. And as they went on, you know, it was gradually working up and so therefore the graph, each man's productivity you know, was rising. And er we were quite happy with that. The result was that other departments er particularly the fitters for example er who were still working on the old scheme, wanted to, they then wanted to come onto the scheme. And er that was with a great deal of persuasion er on the shop steward's part and argument with the management, and pushing the management to introduce it, er that we moved into the fitting departments. But er the management were, were clearly trying to identify the, the whole process in regard to the machine shops in particular first of all, so that when they did move into the fitting er departments, they would have all the materials there necessary to, to give our members the, the feeds you know, for, for producing the m er items. Erm from you from your experience in the, the negotiating of that, that kind of er deal and just from what you saw of it working in factories, er do you think that management quite explicitly sought to, to create some division or was the division that arose wh you're talking about the fitters being on a different scheme from the other members of the workforce? Well can I say that er if I might say so first of all, I think that the, the antipathy that existed for a period actually came more from the workshop, rather than the management. The management er clearly desired to implement the scheme er with the minimum amount of frustration er to anyone, although you've got to understand that as an engineer working a, a big milling machine for example, if someone comes along and said er, you know you could stand that job on its side different to what you've got it at the moment, and you could do two faces instead of one you know, by turning the table and you know, by use of various tools er decrease the time factor, there was the, it was a fear that our members may work themselves out of a job. And I was quite conscious of that. But er at that time there was plenty work coming in, erm there was, there was no need for us to be apprehensive, and so therefore we had to convince the management that in the best interests of everybody, having agreed that the scheme would go on across the whole spectrum of the workforce, was to move reasonably, you know, quickly through the various machine departments and introduce with a minimum amount of frustration. And we had to keep pushing them all along . It was an incentive I would say for the shop stewards. One, to protect the members' you know, interests in each department to see that they got the, a, a time limit you know, to go onto the scheme, that the consultation took place. So it was done in that manner and it was fairly reasonable er and eventually you know, everybody but everybody was, was on this scheme. Do you remember any specific instances of er people being particularly aggravated by the fact that there were these blokes on the shop floor suggesting this job might change, and timing jobs and that kind of thing? Oh yes, er Did people get aggravated by it? I would, I would have to be absolutely honest and that and er I wouldn't exclude myself from that particular er way of thinking because when they moved in, when you got a time for a job, erm for example there was one particular job that I was on erm and I thought that I was doing it reasonable accurately and rapidly, erm and they wanted to introduce a new fixture so that you know, I could do the whole series of faces on it. Erm and I could see what they were after you know, an engineer has in his mind the plan and how to go about the thing and, and get it all done in a one-off situation. So speaking personally, of course when the work study man comes along, and he's timing you lifting a spanner you know, to tighten a bolt, erm and things like this, er it's a strange feeling to have someone standing looking over your shoulder and I personally er didn't see any need for that. Er it would have been better had he perhaps said, well there's the time for the job, there's your card, there's all the operations listed for you, from one to sixteen or whatever it might be, and each one itemized you know, as to how long it might take. Have a go and I'll come back in an hour and a half and, well what the work study man wanted you see, was to define whether his assessments were reasonably correct or indeed absolutely correct you know, or whether they were too loose. Er and that the, the final analysis er in regard to time, was reasonable, because you've got to bear in mind that there was money attached to that, and if his figures are out, and your bonus effort could be increased by ten to fifteen or even twenty percent you know, then his time was considered by the management to be much too loose. But er yes there was a, there was er a change invoked that type of er scheme which er initially was felt by each individual er when they were work studied. But after a while, when they got a variety of jobs to do, they, they took off on their own initiative and in fact some of them er without even advising the, the planning department er introduced one or two minor innovations which made life easier for them in regard to the work study man's er schedule. And that's where engineering you know, knowledge, comes er to bear because an engineer looks for that, he looks for the easy, simplest you know er method of production er which gives him an effective er machining operation throughout the whole job. Er and to be able to pick it off the machine at the end of the day you know, as a first class, simple object at, at a competitive price. And, and that's how it operated. Do you think er work practices became any more flexible with these changes? Like did er er people begin to be asked to do different jobs whereas you described in the older days, you were very much sort of, pinned to one machine if you like? Yes. Well one of the variants that, that was applied, you see under the, under the old er er time workers' er arrangements where it was only the foreman who by visual contact you know with the amount of items produced at each machine could make any reasonable assessment in regard to the individual's effort. This was introduced in a more scientific way and subsequently erm times on machines can be measured. For instance if you want to turn an object on a lathe erm and you go from one end of a shaft to the other, no matter, supposing you do it ten times, erm the machine will take that cut in exactly the same time. You know it's a mathematical er er fact that it won't take any longer to go along. Er and, and having established the measurement of combined with the time, er people seemed to accept the fact that this was more you know, scientific. And er it was accepted, but erm the, the whole structure of the system was geared to efficiency. And through time, the establishment became very efficient. Not only in regard to the machine operators, but there was other things that entered into our discussion. For example timesheets, they were finally discarded and replaced by er a schedule which was a work study schedule applied to each job. There was a card which you received from the er clerk at the desk, they were introduced, the clerks were introduced in order to note everybody's time. Erm your time was made up, it was then applied to the sheet you know, and, and there was hardly any er personal allocation you know, of, of duty in regard to filling up the timesheets. So that was removed. Other major things such as er doing away with time consuming exercise such as travelling even to the store for tools. Erm the tools were made up in a kit and er every time there was a work study exercise done on a job, er the tools were all numbered and laid aside and registered for that particular item. They were then made a sign in the store, and if the job came up again, all you did was to go down the store, and it was a one-off exercise, instead of travelling back and forwards to get a particular tool, erm er that was all eliminated. And you had the whole kit. It was easy erm, so other, other things were brought into too such as drawings. Drawings were altered er instead of getting a whole sheet of a combined er er part of a, a steering gear or whatever it might have been, er they were all itemized and reduced to part pieces, and it was much easier to look, examine and find out what sizes were required than, you know, three dimensional er drawings. So it was, really everybody was brought into this. Er the only thing is that er it was the people on the workshop floor that were paid from it er rather than the er planning er personnel or indeed the drawing office. Who came in at a much later stage by the way, and presented a claim for the management you know, that they were now part of the, the whole scheme. Did you not find that er the work them became very sort of com compartmentalized if you like, very specific people were doing bits of jobs rather than a feeling that you were all part of a much larger thing ? You know,i if you see what I'm getting at. Yes indeed er the there was no doubt about that. Er I was fully aware of the fact that er you know, some people say, particularly in the fitting departments where experience had taught the fitters, having been given a free hand, er that they accumulated all the parts for a job, or even part of the job, they did certain assemblies you know, until they got all the part pieces assembled ready to combine it into the main unit, erm that experience er was being overtaken by an introduction of smaller units being assembled you know, bit by bit as they were being produced in the machine shop. And this created a, a, a degree of efficiency. Er there's no doubt in my mind that it was efficient erm and it was, it was controlling time. But it must have changed the, the And the atmosphere of the job quite, quite considerably and you know. Yes er although let me say this, that er there were many things which the management were required to do, for example, when we, when we went to our monthly meetings with them, we established monthly meetings with the management, one, in order to try and control from our side, er the, to have some control on the production er side of things. One, in order that the old type of arrangement you know, would no longer prevail, and that subsequently if people were going to have assemblies, part assemblies before they assembled the whole unit, then whole areas would have to be cleared, new benches would have to be built, the departments would have to be totally gone through you know, and all the rubbish cleared out and, and access and egress you know, to every department to make life easier for everybody. Er and so, to our credit er the management did this. It took time, it took time, it took a period of years till they got it finalized but when we got it finalized, we had for example er welding areas, in which no one was allowed in unless they were a welder you know. Or were given permission to go in. And the fitters worked happily in their particular section and they had everything at their disposals you know, more or less er er in the one unit. We had the machine shops divided into the main er machine shop and the other sections. So that it was much more efficient and, and pathways and er alleyways were all cleared and lined and kept clear. All the er all the moulds and the part pieces were all kept, you know, in a safe position behind the lines so that the it was easy for people to walk up and down without fear of accident. And so we were complimented by some of our colleagues on the shop floor you know, that, what a difference is on the place. You know and that this is what they were saying. Mm. It seems like quite a, a radical sort of transformation of the whole work environment. Well radical in the sense that er not withstanding it took, it took time. Er but radical certainly as compared to how things operated before, when you went into the fitting shop, you know, you could, you could only walk a few feet Mm. before you were er trying to jump over cables and Mhm. and old plates and nuts and bolts and all sorts of things. Whereas the men, the men were taught to be more tidy erm although let me say this that er if you asked Jimmy who was an old established fitter in Brothers, where you would find a certain item, you know, in the fitting department, er he could go and get it, erm but er when the new system was invoked er everybody knew that they were stored either you know to the north of the department or to the south or whatever. Everybody had an idea where they were. Yeah. Erm maybe you could describe how er I mean, was it a big open plan type er set up? I mean you've described it there was over a thousand employees er and a large operation as well? Yes. Well there was no division between the, the, well if I might say so, when the there was a fire took place in Brothers in the early sixties and it was an awful unfortunate thing. Although, perhaps it was fortunate in one sense that er it completely destroyed the main machine shop and er it, it all happened over a period of about twenty to twenty five minutes. room. Can you remember I remember er the effects of er working in the department er after the fire. Erm we were asked by the managing director er a man called W P whom I had a great deal of respect for, because he was a, he was a design engineer by trade and, and craft. And there wasn't much that Willy didn't know about the business. But apart from that he, he was a, he was er humorous too by nature and er he was, he was quite free in as much as if you made an approach to him, and he understood that you weren't there just for fun, he would set up a meeting and discuss it with you, er and go into details and at the same time, give you an answer at the earliest possible moment. But after the fire er Willy er requested you know that er the men should carry on working and, and we gave him our assurance that we would do our utmost you know, to keep the place er going. Er but having said that er h his it was, it was terrible. The, for example, where I worked I had to bale out you know in the morning about thirty pails of water, you know before I could even see my footboard. And these were the type of conditions that our members worked in, whilst at the same time the management provided plastic roofing you know, but it wasn't efficient and it was cold and bitterly cold if I might say so erm for a long period. But er to their credit er they got the contractors in and they commenced by putting up new pillars and new roofing structures and it took them about twelve months I think to actually build a new machine shop. But during this twelve months you were still actually working ? We were still working there. Er but er and, and the they negotiated er a payment er for working in these er cold conditions for the men who were in the machine shop. But er at, prior to the fire there was, there was a division between what they called the, the catapult shop, er the machine shop and the fitting shop. So the new planners thought well why waste all this available space between the various shops? We can, we can put it all under one roof, and the d the design came out er good erm so that you could walk from the end of the, the machine shop was extended and you could walk from there into the catapult shop directly, or straight into the er fitting base, and thence down onto the welding sections. Erm and they, they installed heating equipment er which our members accepted with a great deal of delight. Erm because hitherto it was a very cold shop especially in the winter time when it was snowing you know. Er I don't know if you've experience of steel but when you feel the handles of a, a lathe first thing in a morning it's like lifting pieces of ice and er the heating arrangement took about four hours before it built up you know, to a reasonable working degree. Whereas the, the heaters that were installed went on thermostatically controlled and er when you went in the morning, the place was nice and warm and you could apply yourself to work right away. So when all these changes were going, going on with the, the machinery, the, the bonus system etcetera etcetera you, you think there were other facilities arose around about the same time which made the work environment still more er still better if you like? Well the er the new building erm was certainly er safer. Erm there were new passageways, erm the management er er applied their thoughts to it and altered the, the layout and certain machines were, were put to one side of the machine shop and, and milling machines to the other side you know. Er and it looked more regulated. Er and the result was that the heavy casting you know, didn't have to travel the system had to be monitored correctly, you had to see that fair play er was the order of the day both in respect of the member and indeed the management to try and reach a er an agreement. Er but in order to introduce reasonable facilities for shop stewards, we had to make approaches to the management over a period of time. For instance we had no place to keep our er records, we had er minute books er we used to receive minutes from the management for example, after our monthly meeting with them, er and they were more or less dictated by the er personnel department, who were present at the meeting. Er and we shared the common objective that these minutes would have to be scrutinized purposefully because if there was any element er in any of the minutes that we didn't disagree with, then we would point it out to the management and had a redraft and have a signed redraft er by the secretary and the convenor, which meant that er at least we were all talking with a common voice. Er we instigated that procedure and then we went on to try and extend the facilities for shop stewards to be able to take care of the er problems arising out of the incentive scheme. Now it took several years for er the new incentive scheme to be introduced throughout the whole of the works and I think during my last discussion you know, I did indicate that the fitters for example, you know, were about the last group to go on. Er and by this time you had several departments, machine departments you know, involved in the process. And er that had to be regulated, regulated as far as fairness and response to er any claim that our members may make in respect of fairness you know, er and it, to enable them to reach the target bonus. It might have been a question of time, it may have been a question of tooling, it may have been a question of instruments, it may have been a question of materials, raw materials, or a compilation of all of these things. Er or indeed you know, the issue er of a job which hadn't been done on a particular machine er but was timed on another one. There was a whole host of things that had to be monitored by the stewards er on a daily basis. But erm happily erm we managed to deal with the matters primarily because management agreed that we would have a meeting on a Monday and a meeting on a Thursday, both held in the afternoon, in the last hour of the working day. Now what happened, and it was a good procedure because what happened was that if anyone say on a Friday had found himself in a difficult situation, we would then discuss it on the Monday afternoon, er bearing in mind that he had taken it to the foreman and had got no response from the foreman, we could discuss it on a Monday afternoon, the convenor and the secretary would deal with it the following day, and in all probability, without having recourse to take it any further, reply to the man that the matter had been resolved and, and to his liking. Or alternately if it wasn't then we would discuss it again on the Thursday and if it was a failure to agree situation, then we just registered failure to agree with the management. And we kept these things minuted in a minute book. Er which was kept in our custody. So were, were management quite flexible in that, in that they, you described they allowed, stewards monitored the, the incentive scheme, er they had two weekly meetings, were management quite flexible in that they gave you time off or er whatever? Well er in the early days, erm there were occasions where erm if I may say so, that, that just to divert for a moment, the scheme had to have supervision, and there was an increase in the staff, the number of foremen and chargehands increased. Primarily because the foremen had to regulate their own department as far as er input and output was concerned. They had to regulate the er flow of materials, from the store to the individuals concerned. Erm and it became too much for them because people were working more efficient, and therefore there was a an increase in the productivity level, and so they had to increase the number of foremen and chargehands, which wasn't a bad thing because it was always our members that got made up to these respective er positions. Sometimes you lost a shop steward erm notwithstanding sometimes if the work study department needed a er an extra man er you would lose a shop steward. Mainly because the stewards had become involved in the incentive er scheme working er and had the best idea you know of how to set times and tooling and everything else. That's another interesting point that actually, you're saying there that shop stewards were lost er became foremen, chargehands and whatever. Did you ever have the feeling that you were almost more a part of management that you were a representative of the workforce? Well I never took that er er as a stance erm bearing in mind that er we were there as the bulwarks to defend the interests of the membership in general. It would have been rather a dangerous step to take you know, to con even consider er that. Although, from time to time, some of our colleagues on the shop floor who ran into difficulties you know, er sometimes described you as a tool of management, er which was to say the least you know, er entirely untrue. Erm and once they got the problem resolved, you know, then they became different people. Er and er as I say,the it was a, it was a line that we could never take objectively. You could be you could be lured into a position where if, if the management had you by the tails, thinking along the same line, then you could never be an efficient, you know, negotiator. And I've got to say this, in some cases I had additional time as a shop steward and a convenor, to spend on major problems er affecting the incentive scheme. Er and I took the time at my own risk, took the time at my own risk er primarily because of that very fact that you were there to support the interests of your members and no one else, no one else. And er happily we went along in that situation and I've got to say this er I had shop stewards who even if they were new shop stewards coming into the committee, weren't long in developing the same train of thought as ourselves and, and you know we dealt with things in such a manner but er we were efficient just as efficient, you know, as our members were on the production line, and perhaps a little more efficient than the management in determining times. Because we knew the speeds you know, and er the working of the machinery, the tools and equipment that were necessary to do the jobs, the, the application of er instrumentation you know, er what kind of materials ought to be used, er and, and we went into all that you know, in, in regard to setting up new times. Again you, you never felt that you were, because you were doing that, you never had the feeling that perhaps you were becoming too much a part of management rather than er simply representing work or did you simply see it as part of your, your job to look after the incentive scheme in that way because it did er that was a part of representing the workforce? Yes indeed er because we had an agreement and er w the men that I worked beside were quite prepared to honour an agreement once it was established. And it was to their credit that they accepted the new er system er and the new times. Sometimes new tooling and equipment er and as I said before, a craftsman always looks to see if he can do a particular job better, if not somewhat easier er than hitherto. And with the help of all these er er pieces of equipment er we found in general that we were reaching a new standard of production, where we were increasing it er and we were able to bargain more strongly and more favourably on behalf of our members. And as each year went along, erm we were determined as a committee erm that we would lay claims, natural justifiable claims to the employer to increase the remuneration in regard to the incentive scheme. And it was done successfully in Brothers, I've got to say that. And to the management's credit, they did respond. Talking of the management, er how do you think their attitude changed going through your experience er of negotiation, over the years you were at ? Well I would say that er there was a dramatic change er in the management's er er manner of dealing with things. We were, hitherto erm if a person had a problem regarding er his piecework, er it may never have been er er argued to the point where, when the new system came in we were educated you know to the extent where we knew how to apply ourselves to the argument. Erm we knew that there was a certain area of profitability attached to the er scheme itself, which the management were happy to receive. Now having said that, then we had every entitlement to argue the case you know, on a mutually agreed basis, I E to get the management to recognize that there was a fulfilment required from them to reach a mutual agreement with the individual. Or i a group of individuals if it was necessary. Er in order that the time could remain set at that without any departing to you know, er feelings of mistrust or anything else. And we built that, a feeling of trust, rather than you know, apprehension or misapprehension er in the minds of people who were engaged on the previous scheme. Do you think, speaking personally, that er management felt quite comfortable over the years, er more comfortable with er being round a table with stewards? Yes er I think that er notwithstanding the fact that we only spoke about the er incentive scheme on occasions, we reserved our er judgment as to when we would apply to the management to discuss certain matters. Matters arising through the procedure from any individual or any group of individuals on the shop floor, was dealt with primarily and respectfully so in regard to the individual making an approach to the foreman, if no settlement was reached then, it was referred to the shop steward in that department, if he couldn't settle it along with the member with the foreman, then he could report it to the er shop stewards committee through the auspices of the secretary or the convenor. We would then discuss it and take action. That procedure became operative so effectively that I think the management subsequently realized that unless they had shop stewards who were capable of discussing the matter intently you know, and objectively, then they were on a loser, because they then stood to lose more productivity than hitherto. So there was the swings and roundabouts where had they not recognized and had come along with us, to the extent that we thought we could do our, a sharing objective er and it brought them out of the, the attitude that was hitherto adopted where well management really couldn't care very much you know, if a man did suffer the loss of er five pound a week or whatever you know, and, and once it was made clear to him that there was no further er er use of the procedure and he could take it through his district you know, if he liked, the man didn't, well on exceptional cases perhaps they may have taken a case through, but er in the majority of cases the man just accepted it, and made up his losses er er later on. But that was on a slower basis than, than he could make it up under the new scheme. Under the new scheme, a man er with a little extra effort could afford to offset and compensate his own er er earnings. But the management did respond and er I think it was just because of the sheer pressure of the shop stewards er making continuous overtures to them on each and every problem that came up, and they were not going to be set aside er with a simple answer er that wouldn't satisfy a member. We made sure that er on each occasion er we reached a figure or a set of figures that would be mutually acceptable to ask the colleague or colleagues and, and then it was registered in the minutes as a, so we could refer back to er any cases er that were similar and that then made life easier for the shop stewards er who may have had a recurrence of the same problem. Well it sounds like the procedures were quite formal, quite highly formal. Well they were highly formal, they, and I wouldn't have had them any other way. Because had we had them any other way, you may have fallen into the dilemma as you've suggested, that the shop stewards may have become part of the management. Erm in no way were we ever going to consider ourselves part of management. Had we done that er you would have er you would have been in queer street. Er and in fact er I would say that had you become recognized as part of management, our members wouldn't have tolerated you as a shop steward. Thinking about things like er the Donovan Commission in nineteen sixty eight, did that in any way have any influence, I mean that looked quite closely at er the state of local bargaining. Did that in any way influence you as a convenor? Well I think that er er as I said previously, that erm the engineering industry erm for many years, er was under the influence of national wage negotiations. Erm in the nineteen fifties and right up until I became a full time official, erm there was generated an opinion that if companies were financially well off, due to the effort of the employees, then there was some formal entitlement for employees in these particular undertakings, to put forward a separate claim at domestic level, to, to enhance their pay. And erm well this became more or less the policy of the union. And notwithstanding the, the national minimum time rates were still negotiated and even today, erm our members er in general er helped themselves er not only through the field of increased productivity, but simply through strength of argument. Er to force the employer into a frame of mind that er well there was a bargaining unit there. And er I don't think that Donovan did anything other than to enhance that. Er and to give the shop stewards er a greater degree of recognition Again it was a formalization of procedures wasn't it? A lot of the recommendations That's right. Exactly so. Exactly so Ken. Er whereby the procedures er at national level, you see the procedures at national level er are quite explicit that er in the national handbook, any matter arising whereby the tools or the materials or the conditions attached to certain jobs, are offered, then our members have the right er to take the matter up with the management. Now that applies to any matter arising, and subsequently I think that er the Donovan Report more or less reinforced er that particular er er procedure, although it had been written into our national agreement er as far back as I can remember. And er, but I felt and I feel looking back on that particular er decade between nineteen sixty and nineteen seventy, that the work which the shop steward's movement did er even in a preliminary way, prior to the Donovan Report coming out, was based on reason and fair play. Many companies er were making fabulous profits and what reason was there to prevent a good shop stewards' committee from going in to try and enhance their members conditions? And after all you know, from all labour there is profit. And our members share that . I've not, there's a conviction that er if management were making money, then why couldn't they get a reasonable increase in pay. Now we did go through dramatic exercises in the nineteen sixties, erm where we entered into a three year agreement er on wages settlement at national level. Erm the preponderance of our members throughout the length and breadth of the country, er initially was not to accept three year package deals. Er and the only reason that I thought they may have been favourable, would have been based on the principle of fair play, but then erm when you think of er companies who are making profits from year to year which were in excess of the previous years, then by the time three years expired, our members could have been in a loss situation, if indeed they hadn't gone forward and argued the case at domestic level. Now within the national settlements at that time, there was always provision left that if our members erm were in receipt of pay which was more than the national minimum time rate, then that would satisfy the terms of the agreement. . Having said that there was always another clause which said that er there would be nothing to prevent our members from bargaining at domestic level. And that was always inherent in our minds you know, as shop stewards. It was a fundamental principle that we never er er er put aside, because we felt that er well as I say if, if a company was being profitable, there was every reason why we should go in and increase our members' er er standard of living. Do you have any recollections of any particular disputes and maybe an answer that you could possibly sort of, make a few comments on whether you felt the the procedures were worked out so finely that they in fact prevented disputes because they were so long and drawn out perhaps or er it took the fire out of disputes if you like? I think that er one of the things that we had to examine at national level er and this was done erm after I became a full time officer, erm there'd usually be a procedure in the national agreement er whereby first of all if we registered failure to agree at domestic level, erm with the management, the next stage was to draw in the district secretary. Er if the district secretary failed to agree, then it was referred to the divisional officer. At that stage the divisional officer may have taken it away from the domestic scene, and er put it through to Glasgow if it was the, if the employer was a member of the employers' association, he would then take it to local conference. Now local conference usually was held as quickly as possible erm but when you went to local conference as an official, you were then faced with obviously the employer who was concerned in the case, an independent chairman of the employers, but a battery of other members of the employers' association who were unattached to the actual claim itself. And you discussed it with that body of er people at local conference. If you eventually failed to agree at that level, then you would have to register failure to agree as you did in all other cases you know, leading up to that stage. And indicate to the employers that you were then transferring the matter to central conference. Now central conference, by the time you went through all the stages of procedure it may take you ei possibly six to nine months, in some cases, sometimes it was held earlier. But erm it could take that length of time. Erm I remember taking two cases when the procedure was still invoked and it was a company in Edinburgh, it was as, as a matter of fact. And on both occasion we were successful, but there were other people there from different parts of the country, who were not successful. And subsequently after a long period of time, the opinions of our members generally was that we should change the, the procedure. And once the divisional organizer was in, that would be the terminating point of or the end of the procedure as such. So there would be no local conference neither would there be any central conference, and that's how it prevailed after the changes were invoked by the rule revision. Erm I'm not so sure that in some cases er it, it's to our members benefit. Obviously erm people may argue the case with me. Er but er in my own opinion, I think that er employers were more or less forced, in the same way as we were, to recognize that they had a problem on their hands. And the longer they dealt with it, the more aggravated our members could become on a shop floor, or that they could have additional disputes you know, on their hands, because of the fact that the dispute or the, the problem had lasted so long. So you don't necessarily believe that protracted negotiation er necessarily takes the heat out of a dispute, in fact it may worsen it? It could worsen it. On the other hand erm if you're looking at, obviously sometimes our members felt that there was a benefit, at least the employer wasn't getting, wasn't getting off the hook as far as the matter was concerned, the matter arising was concerned, and therefore he was left with a problem just the same as we were. And therefore in the interim period things had to be you know, you had to treat people fairly in order not to let them be of the belief er that going to er central conference was just an exercise. Because you know both parties were there to make sure that er there was going to be a mutual agreement or it may in some instances be referred back to domestic level for resolution, or alternately, the employers just said, no and that, that was the end of it at that stage. And at that stage, our members were then at the s at the point where they could take industrial action, if they so desired. After notifying the executive council. Thinking back to your time on the stewards' committee, did that situation arise er very commonly, very regularly? Er and what was your sort of feeling at that time er about taking such as unofficial action for example? Well er I was never of the opinion that we should be taking unofficial action. Erm I always thought, as did most of our stewards, when I say most of out stewards, there was always the occasional steward that felt er the desire you know, was, was justified, that the matter should be dealt with now, and because the management didn't respond effectively, then we should walk out the door. Erm well that's easy. It's easy and it would have been easy for me to get up on a platform or to go into the department and say, look lads, you know, we feel that you're justified in walking out the door. But there's a procedure and the procedure, our stewards recognized that the procedure was there to be effectively operated and if words can resolve a problem, and that's how we became trained in the situation affecting all our members. Erm if words can resolve the problem, then at the end of the day, there's no need for a man or a body of men to lose money. And we did that effectively. And that's why I'm saying that, leading up to the Donovan Report and because I was caught up in a situation along with my colleagues, that we were changing a system er and you know, a new incentive scheme, that we were increasing production. With all the oscillation that was involved in that er shop stewards taking cases up, the shop stewards discussing it with the management, the management's involvement, the management's attitude becoming gradually, not weakened but er inured to the stewards' fundamental logical claims on behalf of their members, made it easier you know, and progress was, was being noted that, and earnings were rising, earnings were rising. And er it was, it was acceptable by our members in general, that we were achieving the aims and objective of the basis of the whole incentive scheme you know, notwithstanding a lot of other things that was accompanied by, because we could we could then say to the management on most occasions, well we could do with something here that would help health and safety. You know, if we thought that there was a need for new footboar boards or anything like that, it was no problem, no problem. It was just a question of time. And the less of time that it took, the better. But we got, we got the things done in that respect. Again taking you back to when you were a steward, erm what do you recall your relations personally and the relations generally er between the stewards and the full timers, the officials of the union? Well erm I've got to say this, that er as a shop steward, the record that I inherited er was one of very little confrontation between the employer and the union as far as union officials are concerned. And in twelve years as an experienced shop steward, I can only recall having a full time officer in I think on three occasions. And as I say, the more competent the stewards' committee became, the less frequent that it was necessary to have the sh the full time officers in. Er if I may say so, erm it was early in our career that er in my career that er along with the shop stewards, we disagreed in principle with the management on an annual wage increase. Er and I think it was about nineteen sixty two or thereabouts. And er I was determined that er we wouldn't lose hold of this claim because it was a good claim, it was a logical claim, it was one that could be answered by the management and could be er er put into effect without any delay in time. There was a slight stubbornness on part of the management, simply because I think they were not, at that stage, inured to the shop steward's effective way of dealing with things. They wanted to push in the incentive scheme throughout the shop and they were busily engaged in doing that, and were rather blinded you know, to the claims that were coming through. And so to try and bring them to heel, er we referred the matter to the district. The district committee, the A G E W district committee, er recognized that it was something that er was a confederation exercise because it covered all aspects of the workforce, and therefore you had er engineers and, and the sheet metal workers and electricians and pattern makers, everybody within the confed in Brothers was affected by it. So we referred it to the confed and er we had the officers down and the matter was resolved and we got our increase and it was acceptable by everybody. Erm I think that was the only occasion that we had difficulty in respect of a wages claim. What we did have difficulty was er with an odd occasion where a man was on the verge of being dismissed. When I say that, he was sent up the road on suspension er with the intention of management that they would look into the case and you know, possibly dismiss. And on this particular occasion it was a man who was engaged t on Admiralty work of a very er significant nature. Er fine, fine limits in the bores of the object er piece of work that he was doing. And a slight slip you know, had taken him half a thou over the bore. Now what was required then was that although the job was in a rush, the management had to telephone down to the Admiralty in Bath to get the appropriate sanction you know, to, to accept the cylinder with the er bigger gauge bore. Erm and we're talking about half a thousandth of an inch, and for that you know, the man, but when I investigated the case, the man had been working on these things for about three or four weeks. Erm his brain when you're talking about human endeavour and craft skill you know, to enable you to get to that stage of, of er er fine working, erm takes a lot of intensive you know, er er attitude. And the man had made a slight slip, and for that he was being penalized. And we, we just stood aside from that and said to the employer, look here, if you don't bring him back on Monday, erm I'm afraid there'll be nobody here tomorrow right. Er and the management equally sort of stood back and said, well if that's your attitude, er you can do what you like. So er that was a telephone call to the divisional officer, who was available at the moment and who came down and discussed it with the employer and notwithstanding that, in the afternoon I had given the management one hour to resolve the problem otherwise there was going to be a major walkout. And happily we got resolved, happily we got it resolved. Erm there are days, occasions that could have sparked off major confrontation with the trade unions binding, the members binding themselves together to protect the interests of one of their colleagues. And that's what the trade unionism is all about. You know, we don't stand back idly and see one man penalized. Er and therefore when it got round the workshop what had happened and why he had been er suspended you know, initially the ire of our members rose and subsequently er the place just ground to a halt and there was a meeting and therefore we put the point to the management that er if they didn't really in a reasonable manner, then we were going. But we resolved it and er happily the divisional organizer resolved it er I would say in about twenty minutes when he came down. But it was with the pressure of the membership behind him that did it. Were the, the stewards formally involved in disciplinary procedure? Erm we didn't have what was known nowadays as a formal disciplinary procedure. Erm disciplinary procedures are now written into agreements with the unions. Erm but in these days erm I think that managements were in the main er fairly well off as far as employees' attitudes were concerned. Employees' attitudes er were fairly stable, fairly stable and some of the work that was done was so highly skilled er that it needed a craftsman's experience to be able to get to that stage of being able to turn a job you know, to very fine limits, or to grind an objective to absolutely no limits, or to, to assemble a job with all the skill and the know-how that had been built up over his twenty five or thirty years' experience you know, along with his colleagues. Erm and so therefore most people were busily engaged all of the eight hour day. And erm it was to the management's credit that we didn't need to invoke any er disciplinary procedure as such. Although it was always recognized that er there were limits to which a person could go. I was interested in you talking there about you know, that one, that particular case whereby one bloke was threatened with dismissal and very rapidly the way you describe it, the men came back with a threat of strike action. I mean did you, do you think that that kind of feeling that kind of solidarity spread beyond er if there was any news filtering through about another engineering factory in dispute or whatever? What sort of feeling was there about that kind of Yes I think, I think in general, er it, it was, it was occasionally erm heard of in other undertakings where this happened. Erm But I'm thinking about di er disputes in general though not just disciplinary disputes. Yes. Yes. Well disputes in general of course, er in different undertakings, there was a different attitude. Erm for instance in the dockyards, erm where conditions weren't broadly the same as was prevalent for example say, in Brothers or or . Erm you're talking about people working outside in elements er you know, natural elements such as might be brought to bear in the month of January or February. Er and er a similar incident took place for example. Er there would be a walkout, there would be a wa there would be no long discussion of it. There would be simply a walkout and the men would stay out until management either conceded to listen to one of their representatives and resolved the matter then and there. What I'm driving at is, did in your, in the time you were there ever the, the workers ever get into a situation where they wanted to come out in support of another dispute in another place of work? No. Erm not really because, well when I say that, erm generally speaking there was this er surge towards domestic types of agreements which tended to isolate erm district action. At one time for example, you see, there used to be an Edinburgh district rate way back in history. And managements usually conformed to its application. If for example the full time officers er negotiated with you know, for a district rate, erm Brothers and, and, and er er or whoever would concede that district rate. But erm, and you could always refer to it in your dialogue with them if you had a claim to make, er that they were only paying the district rate. On the other hand, various districts had differential rates, and those who had above yours, you normally quoted. And erm you could use that in your, your dialogue with the management. So there was always that tendency in our members minds you know to refer to various districts and er earlier in my submissions I did say that there was a disparity in earnings, especially between the Scotland and England er to, to something like seven percent if not even more than that in certain undertakings. So you were always, you were always faced with this er coming from the membership you know, that we were always like the cow's tail you know, we'll always be behind. Er although erm basically speaking you were normally talking about basic rates rather than earnings. And if you quoted the earnings as opposed to some of these undertakings or districts, erm then there was a wide gap you know er which we felt the benefit of rather than the reverse. I I'm still having trouble with this leg. It aches and er at nighttime I can't I can't rest with it. Right. Do you find it's just at night or is it in the day too? Er w more at night you know. Right. Does it make you want Is it the sort of ache that makes you want to wriggle it around? Yeah. I'm kicking it all the while. Yeah. If I lie on settee I've always got this leg hanging, because I Right. can't stand it up. And it's same er when I get in bed, Yeah. I always get in bed on me left me right and then I like to turn over to me right. Yeah. But I found out that me back's been hurting me since I come up before, me back Mm. been playing up a bit. So I had to get out of bed and turn over. But I still i can't lie on it, I still have to go back cos of that leg you see ? Okay. Now we tried a bit of W a We actually gave you a worth of something last time , Yeah. did that help ? Mm. Well not really, it Right. er you know. I mean I don't I try to not to take a lot of notice of it you Good. know. Okay, can you just slip your shoe and sock off, Yeah. And I can have another look, check your circulation. I'm always cold. An but me feet are warm now. But I'm always cold. When did we last check your thyroid? Er was it was it Ma er Have we done one this year? I I I had it I've had it May. I had I had three checks, thyroid Good. me er water and er Was it me general? Yeah. I'll I'll just check that . Yeah. They all came through right I think. Oh that's okay then. I mean me hands is ever Yeah. so cold. Yeah. That that may be My hands are stone cold. That may just be Cos you've got good circulation, in fact, down here. Even if you feel cold, it's not bad, not at all. Okay. Can you wiggle your b ankle backwards and forwards, that's okay. Doe sit ache much now? No no, not at the moment, no . No okay. I think when I'm knocking And you haven't really got veins? Have varicose veins okay . No Okay, and your knee e Yeah, all me knees ache sometimes. I'm told I'd got arthritis in there, but that's years ago. Okay. Well I'm sure this er I think it's certainly nothing serious, it Oh that's what You see I'm alright, but I thought oh I better come up because I've got to come up Yes. next month about that cream that I use . Yeah. It's called This is called restless leg syndrome. Oh is it? I was Yeah. And it's a menace. It And it really is a menace. Yeah. Because although it's not serious, there really is no brilliant treatment for it . and it comes and goes, Yeah, well And and it really does make you want Oh it Yeah. Nasty thing. But I thought well, While I I'll ma kill two birds with one stone, and I'll er come Yeah. up and see him. And you told me to come September for about the cream. That's right yeah. But I though it's there. it's nearly here now isn't it ? That's r So I thought if I er But I was beginning to get a bit worried so I thought well I might as well go up because I shall start to worry and things get out of proportion with me you see? Yeah. so. Who's the artist, is its are the children ? That's my daughter mainly. Mainly Rebecca Yeah. Not all of the two have been done by Mm. Mostly Rebecca. Right now. You're on various bits and bobs, and you're also on the cream. Yeah. If we're going to try anything else for this restless leg, Mm. it may be worth trying quinine which is widely used for night cramps. Mm. And sometimes that does help. Mm. We don't why it works, but it certainly does. And it's worth a go. A Mm. trial of quinine and that may well help. Just a What is it? Yeah, it's one a night. One a night. Yeah. Well I take me Samamigram you know at night. That's fine, they don't interfere with each other. Oh, At all. want to No no no no no no no no no. As I should do. Now you wouldn't do that but it may that may be worth a go. Okay. Mm. Yeah. Now what about the cream, how are things going on with that, cos you've been Well on it for a little while now. er a year. Yeah. I's a year since Well I was a lot better since Yes. Twice a week? Yes. Yeah, no discharge, bleeding, anything like that? No. Only I came up before you know, when Yeah. er about with me husband, you know. Aha. And it was just But I don't er I don't seem as though er it was er sometimes I saw I saw a spot of blood, but it Yeah. not not like the deep red blood, you know what I mean ? That's right, yeah. And I came er I came up before, can't you remember Yeah. I come up and That's right. er er that's the only time. I don't have Right any bleeding in between good , nothing good, you know. god. But the first time I did use it I thought me inside were on fire. Oh yes, it often irritates in the same way when you first start to drink spirits you feel Oh dear, Yeah. I whatever am I going Yeah. to do and I rung my daughter next morning , But it goes As you notice it goes off It went and it sent to sooth That's right. Yeah. My inside and It does. It really soothed it. Yeah, it makes a big difference, yeah . Yes. Yeah. Right well I'm glad you're okay on that. Now you've had er a hysterectomy, ooh a long time ago that's right . Fif fifteen I were fifty one. It's Yeah. fifteen years, and I had a Promatch Yeah. repair when I were forty five. And Yeah. I'm sixty six, so that's twenty one years and fifteen Yeah. isn't it? Yeah. That's right yeah . Erm B So you can continue on that indefinitely. Yeah. So what We'll say trial of quinine, yeah? Give it a go? Yeah. It's not addictive or anything like that is it ? Oh no no no no no. It's not i Cos I'm frightened of It's not a sedative or tranquillizer, No it's just Quinine . No well No. I didn't what did they use to take that for? Malaria , Malaria. yeah. Among other things, Yeah yeah. Having a s But not at this dose, this is a low dose. Yeah. A low dose of quinine. But it's worth a go. I mean once I know what a thing is Yeah. that's half my battle. Because I I stop Good, yeah. worrying. Restless legs it's called. Ooh. Restless legs, and it sums it up, because they do get restless . It's got a posh name, I can't remember what it's called now, but it has got a posh name too. I know they all have but I mean I'd rather have the ordinary names and then Yeah. Well so would I cos I remember them I can't And then I know I can't remember the posh names usually. The same with flowers and all them plants and that. I'd much rather have a plain name I know what they're talking about then. Yeah. And because I'm not very. Yeah, we're plain folk aren't we? Yeah. I'm not very high up on No. all these posh words. No. So one a night. Won't interfere with anything else, and if that's helping, so much the better. Oh can I have some cream please? I'm all but out of it. Ooh squeeze that in at the bottom there. Yeah, can you manage? Yeah. It's right teeny. Okay use twice a week. i haven't put that on, because I haven't got room. Yeah, well I know I know what to do with that. Okay. Thank you very much. we'll give that a go. Yes, okay . And then we'll see how things go. Yeah okay then Okay. He says that's my sister there. I can't get this again. Just gotta pull it out my shoe. God! I've gotta drive this damn thing all the time! I can't move it out. Never had this before though Mick. Not mine. Mine does not Hang on a minute! That's right. Can you re will it go in? Will e erm perhaps Just hold it there. Yeah. Just hold it there. Mm. Switch this thing off. I wonder what's wrong with that? It must be twisted or summat cos it's never done it before when I've been in with the you know, to go bingo. I'll just hold it like that, eh? You'll have to. Now you're telling me! Put it down somewhere. Hey! Int the weather picking up lovely! Yeah, it's nice today. Sun! Yeah, it's better than fog innit? Dunno. Been a horrific crash on the M one . You have? Yeah, I jus I skidded to stop on the back end of it. Right on top of it. Cos all the people in like, you know. Yeah. Well Bet you was glad to get out of road were you? Yeah and people some were couldn't get them out of car and broken legs and Oh dear! It's all because they were going too fast . Yeah. Well they they ought to know better Mick, I mean I know everybody acts daft now and again, but it, it's, it's not worth it . What do you think about them ? Quite nice aren't they? Fifty odd, fifty one pound! A what? Fifty one pound. What, in private like? Yeah. If I er, if I we had to go in one of them Mm. I'd have pay the fully thingy you know, with with having a private house you know what I mean? Yeah. Couldn't afford that. I'm only paying sixty two now for my house! Mind you, if I could sell it, I would it wouldn't bother me you see all this. Telecom and all! You're not doing it all are you? All are the same, and they're missing the top and you'd have to pay . These are pit houses but they can't do nowt about these because they're on the main road you see. Put the gas in and modernizing them. I think it's a shame though. Why ain't you got gas where you are? Well I have. I've got gas, but these haven't got gas in. I mean, they took the coal off and what, what can what else do you do? Has Jean said what does Jean say about the coal business, three month? Like to but Ah! You know what that is? That ten thousand stops in April don't it? Yeah. But then who's that leave? Well if they shut it That's what they're doing now, they're just waiting till April and say we'll have ten thousand quid. Yeah, but I'd turn round and and not accept it if er, if the, I'd say no, we're not accepting that because in the April we don't get that money. Tell them straight! That you know as much as them, wouldn't you? Not much they can do is there? They do. Shut it ourselves or what? They say they're not shutting it there's not much we can do is there? Well I can't see them in the negotiating when he knows what's going on. And he, he he must know that he's gonna keep it up. Yes they do. I mean, doesn't mean you've got the finest in Europe! It's good stuff! Aye. He's a . Maybe power station Well they'll mix it now they're with other . Yeah. This is a bit It's ten to one. But they shipped all these and th and they're investing in Germany then you it makes you wonder dunnit? as if it were for best. Well I couldn't take it! Ah! He's getting a bit. He's the same as this Father Joe. Is he? Very good type of Catholic priest, you see. They say he isn't, but that means he doesn't , I'll see you! Bye! Yeah. I'll see you later! And er, you can take that frigging fisherman's and all! What fisherman's pie? We don't like them! Well, I do but our Karen don't, so I'm not doing one for mesen. It'll do you on Friday. Well leave it there till I'm ready. Well you're not going back there tomorrow are you? Tonight. Tonight. See how I go. Sales meeting coming up. Eggs with the fish. Urgh! Down here. Oh! Oh! What? Eh? What time's dinner at? I don't know. About three. Half two, three o'clock? Yeah. alright? No. Yeah. About that. I got thirty quid when I ir finish Leeds and er twenty five quid when I finish Leeds, and a fiver when I'm finishing Liverpool Have we got owt? Yeah look, we've got another van out of way Pete, but Arsenal, do you know what I mean? Ah! That's a draw that. It's a draw. Now you've gotta got there yet. I don't think you'll any of this. We've gotta go there yet haven't you? You've gotta go to Man City we've got them at home. And Treble. Are you on for the treble? Yeah. At home, is it Rumbelows F A and F A, yeah. Yes, they've got a good chance an'all, you know the a good chance haven't they? They've only got Middlesbrough, Peterborough to beat to get to final of Rumbelow. According to paper like, they were right like at Southampton to get a result! I watched it. I went our Roy's on Sky. Did you? Eh, er, been on in here. Had it? Round there. They had best chances. Aye. It were on here, yeah. Don't think that Shearer's worth four million though! He had two easy chances! Mm. He touched them to keeper. Got a better team at Southampton. Yeah. Hello Lynn! Hello! What d'ya think you're doing? Sorry! Alright. Alright. Hiya. for er we should see them away at Old Trafford, I can't see any problem there can you? Ah! We'll see them on the telly then. I think they're a better Well, you, see it's what you read about. I mean Yeah. you thought that against Q P R haven't you? Aye. Yeah, well that's Remember that? the way. Ah! That were They didn't do anything did they? There's Pete. Yeah! Leeds have got Oldham away next week. Yeah. That's one of their bolder sides. Yeah th they are. They are. Yeah, I mean that was a bad That's what I say I mean loss from a, good at Liverpool yesterday We've got Wednesday at home weren't it? Eh? We've got Wednesday at home Chelsea at home. you know. Yeah. Yeah. We've got Liverpool away. And they've got all them away. What about Forest? And all at Tottenham. Yeah, five two. I know. Biggest, biggest, biggest thrashing, yeah. thrashing innit? Yeah. Be on soon. But that United game's be been getting . I was saying Dave, Trevor Francis come on, he said er rubbish yesterday weren't he? They just changed the game Two goals were int last together. Two goals int last eleven minutes weren't it? Yeah. Yeah! Yeah, he turned it round altogether. He's still a good player Class player! ain't he? You don't lose it, you just lose that ya yard don't you? You don't lose your skill. you know D'ya know I was trying to think of that footballer tha the other week with Colin. Oh aye. Colin . It was Billy . Oh aye. One er, who plays for Hull? He plays for Rovers now. Has he, has he gone Rovers? Has he? I think it is. Or does he play for Hull? He used to play for Hull I think didn't he? I think he played for Played for Newcastle, played for Oxford, he's played with Hull. Played all over the place ain't he? Yeah. Yeah. We've had a complaint. But te They're telling some of the stories that go off like, you know. They're wanting two thousand pou er two hundred thousand pound for Rankin don't they? At Donny. Pay the tax bill ! Yeah, then you've gotta keep him alive. What about that other one? that er go over to Man City Not really. Not since the er I don't know. I know who you mean, that young lad. Did he Yeah. go with you? Yeah he went. What they call him now? Actually, Andrea! Yeah. Are you on tonight? No I haven't got anything, I said I'd be down. A number, pick a number. Oh aye, yeah. Are you coming in? Yeah. It's not all of this bit of nonsense . Do you want take something on cassette? Yeah. Can do. I got a Michael Bolton album here. Who? Michael Bolton. He's good John. Really is Is he? good! Put him on then. Really good John! Honestly! A good singer. bought me that one for Christmas. Hi Maureen! Never heard of him. He's a good singer John. Eh? I've never heard of him! Michael Bolton? Actually, oh he's a good singer! Never heard of him. He's like a rock ballad si I dunno . White. Good! Tell you who I like at moment, that Wet, Wet, Wet! Er, no I can't go for them. That number one? That new single. Can't you? I think that number one's really shit hot! My sister goes for them Morning John! to watch, goes, goes to watch them at Sheffield. Morning Steve! The they're at Wid they're at Widnes as well aren't they? They've added another date. I don't know. They were on yesterday they've added two extra dates round here. Two dates? Must be a sell out. Testing! Testing! It's working. It's Who bought me a drink? Do they supply this machine here or Yeah. Oh! Yeah but I don't get it back . We'll send in tapes and keep Box of tapes. the machine! Batteries. Ah? Little forms if anybody wants to know what the hell weren't he? it's about like, you just show Eh? this. Eh up! Here's here coming! , Eh up! I thought you had orders last night. I thought you were on an under orders you weren't coming out? I know, I won't be, ah, Leeds have won haven't they? They've come gloating! They're saying Ah? You've gotta gloat haven't you? last week. Yeah. Get it off! It's only twenty five past eight. I know, I'll have a Can't tell the ref what a man! Le prat! Very poor! Pint? Lager please. He were in there quick weren't he? Old ! Yeah. If you ask me he made bloody enquiry while he were here! Speed of it! Only there a week weren't he? The speed of it to walk out He should know. like he did then and Yeah. go straight there he hadn't got blue. Well they reckoned he when he walked out so what was it er Francis wanted to see him on grass or something. He hadn't seen him Oh right, yeah. on grass. Well that's understandable that innit Tommy, you're not gonna fork Yeah. money out if yo you don't know what kid's like. Some players can't play on that . Yeah I know, but they've seen them int they? He's not with any club and it's cost Leeds two hundred and fifty thousand for end of season. Yeah. Just the money tie Cor! tie up then? Eh? That's it, no that's Can you just hang on. I'm just saying to end of season. Somebody who he's got though. Er, hundred and twenty thousand. I think it's on Have they give a contract with Marseilles like? He's making some money though. He'll keep I've seen it. Cos it's hard to get him all together. He's retired. Although, there isn't any at Marseilles. That's why he's gone, that's why he's gone to Leeds cos he's retired. Yeah. Oh, yeah. So they say like. I mean if you got sick over there, he'll get sick over here so much grunting tackles going on! Flipping right an'all! That Stuart Pearce getting wrapped round his kneecaps, eh? Oh yes. He'll not come down for two week! He will keep his fingers high. Did you watch Eubank last night? Every time No, that's right. and you're talking about the clear stuff going to all Mm. sort Keeps them clean. Ah yes, that's right. Mm. That's a lovely picture with those three ponies aren't they? Mm. Yes, they're Shetland. Yes i , I thought they were! Yeah. But I'm not clever enough to say for sure, so I keep my mouth shut. Mm. Yes. That's a nice one too, they're gorgeous pictures! Now this is the farm now is it? Is that That's when I were . Ah yes. Oh yes. Yes. Yes. Oh they're . Erm, that was black and we used to wash it. Ah yes. Oh that one really looks as though it's Yes. cuddling. Yes ! Isn't that ni , and this one too! I think Yes. they're actually Cuddling theirselves. They're cuddling each other aren't they? Yeah. And you come in the middle. Yes ! Yes. Here are the ones I took. They're his fir they're He's,his first taken picture there. Oh yes. Ooh yes! Yeah. Are they? Mm! That was on a video camera. What he , what else can you do at school as extras besides That one. photography? Your first pic Erm we play And these ones. sports, erm What are they, they? Erm Where do I put them? I've been in two er art Put them back over there. rooms, taught drawing and that erm there's a youth club we can go to and that's got sort of, table tennis and snooker. Is that in the Shalom Centre? Yeah. I go there every Tuesday for PT. It's a nice room. I'm one of those old ladies who Yeah. do PT ev every afternoon! But he he he, you see, he didn't go to them last September. Oh I see. Ah Mm. yes! They don't know much of what we can do That's right. there's only a few of these things we know, you know? And of course, as you get older you'll be able to do more won't you? Yeah. That's good. Erm, they do play some sport, but it's all the older ones that do that. But not many of the seventh years the year I am No. don't got to No. go out now cos there's more older ones doing it. And so when you have your er, your sort of recreation afternoon what game do you play? Er Or don't you? You play rugby don't you? Yeah. We play lacrosse hockey and Rugby erm and we've just started rugby. Have you? So you do those Yeah. already? We sort of take it in turns of doing each sport with different PE teachers. I see. Aha. And providing the weather's good, you like it? Yes. Aha. But then But it's not on there. I'll have about erm Don't make too much noise will you? basketball, netball. Laying in the kitchen. Basketball's good Go and see but it's easier when you're taller Yeah. isn't it? You get nearer to the baskets. Yeah, and That's right. we, I've had when we go down, on Thursdays we go to the sports hall sometimes if it's wet and erm we're to erm do things the teachers and I er, have tried a bit of basketball but I ain't got it into Mm. the net! No. No. It isn't i , you've got to get the knack haven't Yeah. you? You've gotta be pretty tall to jump up. It's easier when you are tall. That's true. But you like tho , the idea of it do you? Yes. Aha. It's not so rough as some things, it's not so rough as rugby but perhaps you don't mind being a bit rough do you? No I don't, no. They like it rough whe when they're young He practised on Helen! like that! They do! Yes. They do, yes. See more, don't see no fear like we do when they're young. No they don't. That's true. That's that's our cat who just died. Ah! Oh! Do look here, that's Panda and that was my cat Mhm. and every morning, he's a , jump up on my chair. Yes. Did he? Yeah je , when I was having breakfast he used to jump on the table! Oh my word! They're used to be one, one of them what got killed used to, he used to ride his bike up and down the path here and sh , as start, he'd get on his bike, she'd run down to that bush down there and then get there before him and then, soon as he start to come back he was running back and beat him! Really? Yeah, well that's only he went up and down there. They're lovely aren't they when they're li And she'd got when they're intelligent like that? Yeah. Yeah. While I'm digging that garden she used to go out roll in the trench what I'd dug and soon as I went in for a drink she was in there before me! She'd beat him in the kitchen! And er I think cats can be lovely! Oh yes. We and i it's, when we had sprouts it used to get its hind legs and pull them down and start ploughing at them. Really? And then when And they'd pull the sprouts up Yeah, but what about erm what, what it keep doing with your sprouts? Oh the , sprouts got you in the bath, went to and er kitchen to clean the sprouts, chuck them in a bowl I thought that's funny, I didn't chuck that one in there! Course, I was looking out the window and I know he took I picked it out and it I looked again, there's another one in there, course she's only getting out the bath put them in a bowl like I was! I can't believe my own eyes! No! And as soon as I went to get sprouts off a garden, she'd be on there, won't she, would? Yeah. She'd pull them off the stalks. Really? Yeah. And just, she was playing ball in other words wasn't she? Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah! And erm we made it little to , potatoes and then dig them up what you don't want Yes. you could chuck them for her and she used to go after them. Did she? Yeah. Oh how sweet! Was she the one that was killed? Yeah. That's a shame isn't Mm. it? But, was it on this main road? No, she was fine that one was. Oh that's No, that's Whisky what was killed on the main road who done that, Ah, ah Whisky, so was that er, other one what we had. Yeah. Milly done it as well. Yes. Really? Milly, yes. Milly. That was her daughter. Oh I see. I see. And was it on the main road that the one who was killed Yeah, we go had one killed a school teacher down here killed one of them. When was that? Ain't erm about three weeks ago weren't it? Two weeks ago. Panda. That was Panda. Another one killed on the main road as well. It's heartbreaking! Wonder who that was? I know. We would love to have erm we'd love to have a cat but Yes , well er partly it's a tie if we're wanting to go out. And i in a way it is But not But also it's er, it's it's too risky on that road. It is too risky! Well it weren't exactly the school teacher's fault cos Panda jumped out of the hedge into the lights from the cemetery cos she liked to go mousing up there. Ah, what a shame! And when she come and knocked on the door she was upset more than we was cos she done it didn't Ah she? yes. Yeah. Yes, well it is upsetting. It's Mm. upsetting Yeah. to you to lose a cat isn't it? Yeah, and it's erm like our other one, she used to go hunting up there and she's across the main road No don't worry about it. and onto the fields. Aha. But erm so far Betty, she's alright, she sort of looks and It's amazing, some cats will get an instinct Yeah, aye that's yeah, yeah. won't they? Mm, yeah. We had one that was very canny Mm. about the road. But we had one killed on the road too. Well we had one So she what used to do the sprouts didn't I? Yes, Honestly, that's tremendous! That's terribly funny! Mm. That really is. Oh she was a character that one! Was she? Yeah. Yeah. Well they all were really, they all had Yeah. their different Yeah. their different characteristics Yeah. cos I mean Pimple used to erm used to run and have anywhere. see Len come along, used to run and jump up at, onto his shoulder and go round the garden shoulders! Really? Yes. Yeah. Oh he and coming up that passage, run and jump right up on me by getting up my shirt. Well when Panda , when you were peeling potatoes she sort of lying on your back when you was bending there like that. Yeah that's it ! Yes ! A good place to be! Yeah. I I like cats better than dogs because Yes. I think dogs want a fuss made of them, cats don't really. No, no no The , there's a way of they don't like , they don't like They're independent. a lot of fuss. No. They're much more independent. Yes. Apparently, she sort of lays on that hearth right, and right in front of the fire and their two feet sort of on guard sitting, and his down like that. Feeling the fire. Yeah. Yes ! Yeah. Let's see how you've been getting on. Do you get at school any erm any sort of music lessons? Erm yes. On Thursdays I go to music lesson and erm, we have this singing contest erm, we come second out of the first years, and we sung Mole in a Hole. Good! Erm at dinner times you can go into the music room erm you can play on any music instrument you like there's keyboards erm, violins guitars erm drums. I tried to play on the drums, I'm not too good at that. They make a terrible noise don't they ? Yeah. Erm Only trouble, there's a snare drum you can turn it onto snare or ordinary but when you have it on snare, if you play or anything it rattles! Is it erm, is a snare the thing that co , the sort of wire that goes across it? Yeah. And what does that do? Erm, well it makes erm a lighter so , makes the drum sound to a lot of lighter sounds. Oh I see. But erm, when you play music and you keep it on snare the wires keep rattling. Ah yes. So, you have to erm pull this erm, little lever at the side and that that'll turn the snare bit off they can play on there erm there's the choir, erm Are you in the choir? Erm, no I don't know much about it yet, we haven't I've only just been told about it by a friend who I sit next to on the bus. You've only been there I think a ba , a term haven't you? Yeah. So tha , yes. Mhm. So we don't know much about it yet, but on Thursdays we get, we've got taught how to play erm a keyboard and been taught a little bit about reading music. But Good! erm, I can't read it too well cos I've only had about couple of lessons on it. Yes. It needs practice doesn't it? Yeah. Of course, being in the choir it gives you practice reading music because you just have one line to follow Yeah. and that's a good start isn't it? Aha I have heard erm some choir, the choir sing a little bit cos erm we got a corridor near the music hall and erm they sing up pretty loud so you can hear it. Cos there's erm er machine in there what you can get erm fo food from right, so I go down there sometimes Yes. get something out the machine and listen to the music in there. Nice! Good! I think it's a good school don't you? Yeah, it's pretty good but erm the older ones think they run it a bit! Yes. But, there's, some of them are alright. I got some erm friends up there who are in fourth and fifth year Mm! so and they then erm I have got some friends I used to know as the little school but they've left now. Oh! Erm, they just went on to their fifth form Yes. so don't see them around much. Mm. Erm I know a boy erm Rickie who just lives up our road Mm. erm ho , I know him so I go and see him sometimes. That's good! Mhm. But I don't see him that much because he go and play sports on the Yes. field. Yes. And then they're just not available to play at home th those No. times. No, that's right. You always find wherever you are that the people who've been there a long time get sort of erm a bit uppity, they think that they're Yeah. the bosses of everything. But of course, one of these days you'll be at the top of the school won't Yes. you ! A lot of erm them, cos erm we're up, we're in the upper sort of thing, we're in the upstairs in a form room, so when we walk downstairs to erm down to a lesson they come barging up there and pushing out of the way! Yes. And that's the only trouble about it. That's not very nice when you're a bit smaller than they are. No. Aha. Erm they try and erm erm sort of push you out the way and tell you to get lost! Yes. Yes. But erm Well when you're big, that's the thing to remember and you won't push Yeah. the little ones around perhaps No. will you? I got to , when I was going to the little school I got told the little ones. Mm. But they erm I was used to it, used to it cos erm Mm. I got a lot of little cousins and that Oh of course, yes! So you know what it's like being small Yeah. too. And what about all this gardening then? I was very interested when you were talking about gardening this morning. Erm Well you don't do any gardening, I suppose at school? Erm, no, I wish we could have a garden, sort of thing, like we mi , where mum used to go and have a garden but it don't Mm mm. now. Mm. Erm But still, you don't need a a garden at school, you've got the, really the whole of that garden at home. Yeah, so Because your father can't do much now can he? Erm no, he does help me a few things but I do all the digging for him because he can't bend down too much. Yes. Erm I told him he ought to get erm, one of these rotovators and a plough underneath Ah ha ha ! but he said it's too much money cos they're Yes. Yes. a few thousand pound now. I suppose so! And really and truly you've got to have a very big piece of ground to need one of those haven't you? Yeah. I think you're a very good forker and spader really! Yeah, ah well erm when I was younger I used to watch dad so when he put his seeds out I used to erm get the erm erm erm, spade and sort of keep digging them up,se seeds up so I got, I got to know how to use them by then then then erm while I've got older dad got another piece of ground what he's given up now Mhm. erm he , we used to go up there. Where was that er Erm Ben? up our road and very first house, number one, he had a big bit of garden Oh I see. erm but after a few months dad gave it up cos it was erm too wet and that where weeds could grow easily Ah yes. and we keeps erm digging it up and weeds keep growing. Yes. We had potatoes in there for a time but we had to keep hoeing all the weeds out. No, and of course the weeds will have a Yeah, they a fine old time won't they? Yeah. Aha. But your ground, I imagine you've kept it fairly cre , free of weeds for quite a Yeah. time now? Erm on our some of our small plants we don't use any erm sprays or No. we use erm a rake or a and we draw across the seeds and that'll ra , bring out the weeds. Yes. I done that on my wheat this afternoon erm but we have to use fertiliser on ours cos Mm. we don't have to sort of, ain't gotta take really too much muck Mm. Yes. cos we do half, we muck erm I've grown pretty well Mm. so it gives the plants a boost Yes. so we don't have too much muck so, and like put some fertiliser on the other bits. I see. Because, in fact, you can't put that compost on the, or that muck on the, when you say muck, do you mean the compost that you make with the vegetables? Yeah. Yes. Erm, you can't put that on till it's really broken down can you? No. So it's erm you use up probably quite quickly what you've got. Yes, erm all our sort of cabbage stalks and beans stalks go onto the muck heap to turn into a sort of compost, but other people they just sort of burn or take them away and buy a bag of compost. Yes. But erm bought bags of compost aren't so good cos if you use all er, stuff you're growing you put erm it back onto the ground Mm. Mm. what's come off the ground. Mm, yes. Yes, it seems reasonable doesn't it, to put it all back? It's all been natural stuff hasn't it? Yes. Aha. Which bit of the gardening do you like best? Well erm the best bit, I like harvesting, I don't like the digging is alright but it hurt your back so Yes. You get yo wo once you've done a lot you suddenly Yeah. feel it don't you? But the hoeing is nice and easy Yeah, okay. more or less. Mm. We got erm various sorts of hoes. We got a Dutch hoe, that's Mm. pretty easy to use. Nice! And erm, we got another hoe oh er, I don't like using it cos it's got wood and it keeps giving me splinters! It's got, oh really, that's the handle is it, that does Yeah. that? Hiya Ben! Ho Hello. Hello. We've got a hoe that what is that hoe called, that we've got Noel? It's got these prongs that go like that. Oh, what's Erm that for? Oh yeah, I've got one of them. Have you got one of them? Because they get, the weeds out quite deeply don't they? Er, oh yes. Erm , I got two of them. Mm! I bought one erm I think it was a year or two back then our next door neighbour di , well no, it was before she died, she gave me one. Nice! Mhm. So I got quite a lot of old tools, really old ones Yes. dad's got loads of old ones, what he use Has he? I like them better than the modern ones. Do you? Yes th , there's something nice about the old tools isn't there? Yes, cos they We've got one hoe that's at least two hundred years old! Yes. Yeah , yeah. And we've, but only found the middle part Mm. and I had it sharpened by Hector Yes. and now it's as good as new! You can see it afterwards. Yes, where erm my next neighbour gave me some stuff erm, then I went into her shed cos she had erm, some mice problems so dad went in there to have a look round, seeing the poison were wore off and we found quite a lot of old gardening chu , tools. Ooh did you? Cos erm her husband was a farmer we found a lot of old really old ploughshares like Yes. that. Yes. I found an old plough wheel, I still got that at home. I like keep an antique stuff like that. Oh yes, it's interesting! Aha. Erm and, she had some erm chicken ho er,hoppers that erm she had Chicken hoppers? Yes, erm used to put, you put feed in them Oh yes. and they soon get erm but they had plastic ones and they have lights on them. Really? Yeah, but they smell! Oh, do they? Yeah, erm when we're up the farm when er, after a few days we put the feed in them they smell. Oh that's not nice is it? No, cos all the plastic sort of Yes, that's because they've got a light on them isn't it? Yeah. Yes some erm some light, electric light fittings are made of plastic and they like bad fish after Yeah. a time don't they? It's horrid! Yeah, erm when we went in there for a few times used to get headaches and that. Yes, nasty! Yeah, but the weather was cold, when cold that er, it took away some of the smell Mhm. but as they got muddier it worsened. Yes. I in the end it gets yuck! Yeah. Erm the really old sheds they're better than the new ones that Yes. Mm. erm they er, they're cool in the summer and warm in the winter. Mm. Mm. For that stuff. That's an advantage? Yeah. I've erm dad had a lot of old gardening to , tools up in er his shed when he was up but when we when dad retired he was going to erm take them, but he forgot about them Ah! and they left them up there. Oh dear! So, I don't know wha , we, he did get some but erm a lot of them he wished he'd brought Yes. and left the other ones. Oh dear! He brought the wrong ones he thought! Oh that's Yeah. hard-liners isn't it? Yeah. And where do you keep all this stuff? You haven't got a shed have you, in the back? We got two, one was an old erm air dru , no one of them erm, bomb shelter type things Oh yes, Anderson shelter! Yeah. Mm. And er we had a wooden shed it blew down in a gale so my Nana, she bought us a shed Oh! for a present. Oh that's nice! So we put that up. We keep some tools in it. We put our cat in there cos she like going in there and we have some ta , we put seed and that down there. Our other sh shed we put all the tools and Yes. To keep them out of the weather. You've just got to have somewhere to put them haven't you? Yes. Aha. Cos erm well if you leave them lying about they'll rust easily. Yes. Now that's quite true. Well you're quite an experienced gardener, it seems to me Ben! You must of learned a lot from your father by now? Yes, erm I get erm some mags, ah erm gardening magazines and I look at them. Oh yes, that's useful! Mhm. Erm , dad tells me a lot about it cos he started gardening when he was young. Yes. He got a lot taught a lot off granddad. Mhm. Erm, so it sort of originated in our family. That's right, a family thing, you hand it down from generation to generation Yes. don't you? And the books of , are useful because there are lots of new ideas have come up Yes. as you go along. Erm er mum gets some for me on Wednesdays sometimes, when she goes to Framlingham. There's various ones I read I had one from the library, it was a big one Mhm. erm I was reading about carrots, so I didn't get to finish it cos we only had two weeks. Erm little window box ones. Mhm. Er, what you grow in a window boxes. The little Mm mm. erm short ones, and they're sweet. Yes. Carrots? Yeah. Yes, some of them are nearly round Yeah. they're so small! Yes. Aren't they? Tha look, they look funny to me! And when I erm, first got them cos my granny got me some for a birthday present Aha. erm when we've dug them up I I didn't think they looked like carrots until we had No. them. That's right they, and they must be a bit fiddly to peel mustn't they? To scrape, rather. Yeah. Instead of a nice long scrape, you've got to go round corners haven't you? Yeah I keep, when I I I always scrape the vegetables sometimes but when I do though I keep cutting my fingers! Ugh, yes, yes! So I gave them to dad to do. Ha! What's the idea of those little carrots? I don't know. Er erm, there's only been last year that I've grown them Yes. so I don't know much about them yet. Did you like the taste of them? Yes they're, they're nice and sweet. Are they? Mm. Erm other carrots, erm they don't grow that well, I don't think so anyway. No. Well there's so many things that get into carrots aren't there? There's a wa , a wire worm or something? Yes erm And carrot fly. Is carrot fly the thing that goes for carrots or not? Erm, yes tha , that will come in really bad! Mm. Slugs, erm they'll Mm. go after carrots and potatoes. Mm. Erm one year we got no end of slugs! Erm leatherjackets, they're bad for them. Oh yes! Mm. Erm so when you sort of dig the ground up you have to chuck them out the way. Yes. Cos they'll, they'll work their way back in. I'm sure. Start eating the plants and that. The plants. Yes. Yes. That's why I say nature works against you instead of with you. Yeah. So I don't bother! Don't you put any lime on them? Erm well we have tried it once erm but we put soot on them because they'll so Yes, soot is supposed to be good for something. Yes. Erm, that will sa , that will stick to them and erm they will that will make them feel ill so they Yes. die. Yes. And erm, soot's good for the ground. I see. Dad used to put erm a lot on it but we had to have erm the chimney sweep at ours for quite a long time No. and he hadn't got any. You'll have to get some more soot. You'll have to get him along and you can have some more soot. Yes. I've forgotten what they used to use so soot especially. My father used it, but I've forgotten what it was. Never use it on vegetables, around vegetables to stop insects creeping too. Does it? It'll stop them from crawling across, They don't like it? just under the surface, they couldn't get . No. No. Aha. There are so many things you've got to be looking out for in those Yes, erm I read up quite a lot of things about keeping pests away, but I don't dad reads them and tells me about them, but I forget cos they have to go back That's right. after so often. Yes. Let's see what we've got there. Ben would like to go to Otley to do a proper training course. That's a very good idea Ben. Yes. Yes. And so you're going to work at the things that will get you in there aren't you? Yeah, so I will do quite a lot of erm, stuff erm I should say in geography, sort of work in geography for that things. Erm we done a little but we hadn't done that much yet, but my sister tells me as we go , as the year go on and do a bit more about it. Mm. You learn about soil formations and that sort Yeah. of thing. Yes. How old are Ben? Sorry? How old are you Ben? I'm twelve. Twelve. Mhm. Mm. He's a wonderful gardener for twelve, I can tell you! Good! Ha ha. Erm and And what else would help you to get into Otley? I suppose you've got to be able to do maths for most things haven't you? Yes, erm and when you go to Otley College they will teach you everything, so you need maths,or this erm Yes for measuring an an yes. Yes erm I'm not looking forward to doing the cos they've told me about it and he used to get headaches and Really? Well I think that you wear masks now don't you, when you use it? Erm, yes, erm if you haven't got a tractor you have to, but if you've got you don't have to so much. I see. But erm if I, when I go to a farm I don't want spray. No? Well it would, not very good for you would it really, because of your No. chest? Mm. Yes. Aha. Erm I don't mind fertiliser, that's okay. Mm. And but What we were talking about, or what I think is interesting is your experience from your early days in horse shoeing has stood you in good stead for the revival of interest in driving erm if you'd like to tell us a bit more about that I'd love to hear it cos I'm never tired of that. Yeah well er the shoeing today is completely different to what it was when I started nearly sixty year ago. In them days horses were they were all working hors , driving horses you hardly ever see a riding horse. Er the ones they did ride were the ones they used to drive at erm ah, down the two jars but er and that was a completely different way of life then to what that is now. Er Mm. er the horses that are shod today, you see they all riding horses, no very few working horses. Yes. Er but now the It's, and that's your hobby isn't it? Yeah. Yes. Er where before that was the horse was equivalent for a motor today. Yes. So that was a living. It did the Er job of a tractor, it did the job a van a lorry Lorry. a car, everything! Yeah. Yes. Ah , every form of transport Transport. when you think about it. Yes. Mhm. And is it But now different type of horse that makes it different for shodding Oh yes! today? Oh yeah! Not the question of the same horses doing a different job. No, that's a different type of horse er Yes. er, the old fashioned working horses er practically extinct. Yes. And the shires are still there fairly strong, still er some of course has now gone onto the rare breeds. Mm! Er registered you see. Er Welsh colts and things of that nature are coming back a bit now, they are building up now er but But would I be right in saying that the everyday working horse, the sort of, general purpose working horse that people used years ago, people such as carriers, they would use horses which were crossbreeds wouldn't they? Not Yeah. not a purebred anything. Not a pure , no! They'd be good old heavy, honest, rough Yeah. Yeah, yeah. hard working horses. That's right. Not things of beauty really at all. No. No, ooh no, no! And you hardly ever see that type now do you? Gypsies No. have them. You still They were see gypsies with that sort. built for strength Yes. for the Yeah. jobs. Yes. Work. Yes. Were they? Yeah. Purely for Yeah. work and hardiness. And they're ornaments today, they aren't working horses. That's right. You put these horses into hard work today they'd be dead within three months! Would they? Ooh yes! Yeah! Yes, the whole scene has altered. And er, as I say, observing this and watching Hector's work and how things have gone on over the years, er as you know, there's been a tremendous revival of interest in driving, so many people have er, restored carts or had new ones built and erm the young farriers who've never had the experience with driving horses, they have run into problems with erm, keeping them going soundly and overcoming problems which crop up when horses are driven on the road a lot. Yeah. Mm. Would you like to tell us a bit more about that? Well, yeah that is, I'm I mean that's a completely different er er laxing of the, it's completely different. Er when you're riding a horse, you see the weight is all on the back er whichever tendency do and what we call the gait er Yes. is the hind legs in the front Yes. they have a tendency to open them make them wider apart Oh yes! by the backs. G A I T. That's right, that kind of gait. By the back and swop them you see. Well er, with a driving horse that's completely opposite because yo your vehicle behind the horse is pushing against it Yes. and have a tendency to punt the back Really? so that pushes the legs fo closer together, do you see? Good heavens! They're more likely to And then they're more likely to hit, they're more likely to hit Mm. the front legs with the back legs Really! when they're going, especially going down hill. And of course, there's a word in the trade for that isn't there? Yeah. Forging. What is it? It's what, now there's a Forging? completely Yeah. different use for the word forging. Now, is it related to forging ahead in any way? Oh do , is that where forging ahead comes I from? When you're really pushing? Yeah, yeah, pushing. It might well be. It might Yes. well be. I would say the term And, and then they can forging ahead has come from the use of that word in relation to horses. Yes. Yes. I would say, because that Yeah, probably. dates back many, many years doesn't Yeah. it? Yeah. Yes. Because they That's it. do do it when they're pushing ahead Yeah. they, they hit the front foot with the hind one. Good Lord! Occasionally you Yeah. hear them do it Oh! when they're driving, it's quite a sharp Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. crack you Yeah. hear. It's amazing! Mm. Er so that's, that's completely different do you see? So the styling of shoeing is different. Mm. Completely different. If they do it too much then the farrier's not doing a good job Job. and his job Really? is to re-balance the shoe so that er, it just misses Miss. the front foot as it comes forward. If the Right. if the horse is travelling fast on the road he's at the trot, I mean it isn't Yes. the done thing for driving horses to canter or gallop on the road, they never ever should. No. Erm, but at the trot, when th the the legs are moving the diagonals are moving so of course the front and the hind foot come very close together Ah that's it! at one point in the gait Yeah. and if the Yes. shoe is slightly wrongly balanced, or the foot is slightly wrongly trimmed, then you get these troubles, you Yeah. also get what we call, brushing don't you? Brushing. When they Tell Edith about that. when they hit both legs together like the hind legs when they they'll hit each other they'll hit one hind leg They really, they with other one you see. They really Ooh! wear They give it a . a a a sore place Ooh yes! on the Yes. Like us banging our ankles like that. That's it. Yes. Yes. Yeah. They do it on what we call the coronet Yeah. which is of course the little junction between the skin and the hair. Yeah. Ooh! Very tender place. It's like the quick of our nail Ooh yes! where the I can imagine! tissue grows from. And they do And on the front damage their coronet. On the front one they do it on the knee which is the er do you see, which is higher up. Yes. Yeah. But the knee comes sort of out Out. doesn't it? Er inside Yeah. Yeah. there's a Yeah. nobble Yeah. Yes. on the, yes. Yeah, yeah. Yes. Yeah so, and that's what they call cutting. Mm. Yeah. Mm. Really? Yes. Yeah. Yes. You'd never dream! And so people who go and, usually into horses need to know all these or else they're going to be very unfair to the horse. Well er They should know about it! They should know it. Yes. They should know it. But er But it , mainly it's the farrier's job to know. Yes. But course, they don't er It's his responsibility. they don't do enough work to really create any problems today, do you see what they're to do somebody will say ooh we'll go out for a ride Yes. they're out, half an hour? Yes. Hey? We'll go out for a drive probably out an hour, whereas years ago the horse used to come out the stable at seven in the morning he wouldn't go back till probably five at night. Course! Probably later than that! Mhm. He'd go the driving horses, they'd probably go to Wickham market Monday do you see, the sale on the Monday they'd go to Ipswich on the Tuesday er Wednesday they'd go to Bury er and Ailsworth Yes. And they really earned their Then they'd go to Norwich. keep! Full time job! Ooh they worked hard! And then they'd go to Norwich on the Saturday. Mm. I mean they'd, they'd, they'd be doing probably anything up to forty mile a day weren't they? Would be. Yeah. Yes. And I mean, that was six days a week! Yes. But now they do er twenty minutes they think they'd have done wonders! Yes. Or go from pub to pubs You know. that's about it ! Yeah. And you think of these , for instance Prince Mm. Yeah. Phillip, who is Yeah. Yeah. presumably those horses don't do long spells of that sort No. of driving? No. No. They'll be exercised in other ways I imagine will they? Exercised, yeah, they're exercised, normal exercise during the week and then when they do these events do you see? But of course, if you go back far enough do you see on these four in hands were were going from town to town weren't they? I mean, they were they were mail originally weren't they? On the stage coaches, yes. Mhm. Stage coaches Mhm. Yes. Er on the horses that's understandable, they can start off and probably don't knock theirself but there's a time they'd done twenty or thirty mile pulling a load. They're tired, They're tired Mhm. er, and then they start and that's when the trouble starts. Just as we do, walking a bit less Yes. carefully. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Yes, the same Yeah. thing applies. Mm! Exactly! Mm! And What about er, in those days er, possibly a few still, when erm let's, you said gypsies didn't you? Mm. or let's say just erm odd tradesmen had a horse or a pony or whatever it was pulling a cart round the streets with vegetables or with, with er coal Yeah. or something what about the amount of care they would get from a farrier, those horses? Well they they got reasonable care because, like I said, that was, that was the the owner knew that er that was his livelihood then That's the thing I suppose, yes. and he treated his horse well I mean a lot of these horseman, good horseman treated the horse better than they did the wife! I wouldn't be surprised about that ! Ooh yes! Living in the East Yes. End, I wouldn't be surprised Mm mm. at that! Oh yes! Er and they thought of, I mean they thought the world of their their animals and but Yes. er when you were in the trade like mine if you didn't do a good job the man never come back to you, there was a, there was a blacksmith farrier in every village! Yes. Some villages had two Mhm. And if you didn't do the job properly you didn't get the job and if you didn't get the job you went hungry! Course! So that er that made you do it properly! Yes. Yes, they were a And there was no there was no if you hadn't earned a shilling you'd got nothing to eat had you? That's right. Necessity being a good driver. Absolutely! Well, yeah! Yeah. Erm, Hector often quotes one particular instance which illustrates that very well er a as recently as your time, after you were er er shoeing Yeah. in your own business and everything, er people often say what did you used to charge? And it was six and eight pence for a set of shoes on a Six and eight pence, yes. heavy horse, a land horse such as a Suffolk, as most of them were, erm but times were so tight that there was a farmer who used to send his horse with his horseman right past here and go another mile down the road to, to the next village to Kettleborough where there was ano , there were two farriers there Yeah. and one of them was doing them a halfpenny cheaper! Ooh! Six and seven pence halfpenny. Halfpenny And the farmer thought that it would Payed him to do it. to send them an extra mile each way and the extra Really! time that took to get them shod a halfpenny cheaper! And things were as tight as that! As tight as that? Yeah. Yes! Yeah. Yes. Mm. So I suppose, now would, could that possibly be called a false economy? What was he using up It probably was. time? Well if that was, I meant that would be today Yes. but er in them days there was no such thing as false economy, I'd and I, economy didn't come into it No. else he'd of I mean No. er People didn't set the same cost value on time as they Time. I was going to say, time do now. didn't count in the same No and er It really didn't seem to No. it's very funny that! Mm. If you're if you hadn't earned the money well you didn't go into it in detail and get the time and motion study man No. in to look at the job did you? Just thought That's right. well we'd better pull ourselves together and see if we can put this right! That's right. Er you never really went into it to see where you had lost the money. No. No. Er but you just grabbed a little harder so that you made ends meet That's right. By the result you Yeah. Yeah. would see that you had to work a bit Yeah. harder and There was no no working out to see how you could do anything cheaper. No. No. No. Aha. But any economy that was made or in the early days of Hector's er business, I know, was always saving material rather than time. Yes. Erm and the instinct remains doesn't it? Oh yeah! Your your instinct is to save a bit harder. an odd bit of se steel or iron off a bar which the modern man would say well there's no point in saving that because by the That's right. time you've looked Yeah. for it and found it when you want it er, it would have paid you to cut a bit off a new bar. That's it. Time costing as much Yes. as it now does. Time now Yeah, that's right. is er, is the main driving thing but in your early days it was material every time. Oh material every time! Erm tell Edith Labour about some of the er er oh normal economies that were made, like, erm making odd links Well, oh well the horse into staples and all that sort of thing. well the horse shoes you see, we used to we used to weld one and a half old horse shoes together in the fire to make one new one again. Really? Ooh yes! They weren't thrown One turned the other way on top We of the other? used to get one shoe and a ta , in the middle so that, so that cut the half new one Yes. turn it over on itself then the other one we used to half Oh! and put the other piece in between the two and make a sandwich Golly yes! so you'd got a piece that shape, half new one Yes. and that was all welded together in the fire into a straight bar And then you'd start all over again! and then you'd start all over again! Oh I see. You didn't use Mm. that as a shoe you then Re made it an a new Re-shape it. piece of metal? Yes. And then Yes. yeah, and then re re-used it to shoe. Mm. Made another shoe out of a That's right er yes. And that was a genuine economy then. Oh yeah! Yeah. Yes. Yes. Yes. Er Erm old cart tyres we used to split them up the middle and made shoes. Did you? Oh yes! Er Because they were made of the right kind of iron? Yeah. Er And erm you see, we used to when old shoes do you see, you could only use them a certain number of times by welding them up Yes. er after they got so you hadn't got no more life in them we used to weld short bits onto . Really? Yeah. Still all done in the fire. Yeah. Wired? Old chains And when they wore thin on the end and we had to put a new link in we never threw the two halves of the link away, we pointed them and made them into staples. Really? Because the middle part of the link wasn't worn you see, that was still a good bit of metal in it. Yes, course. Yeah. Isn't it tragic to think how far from that we've moved? Yes , it is really. Yeah, mm. Yes, it's And it's so wasteful u it's all throw away Yeah. now isn't it? Yes. Yeah. It seems morally wrong. It hurts us Yeah. who've known Yes. the other thing doesn't it? Yes it does! Yeah, yeah. Mm. It goes against the grain terribly! And I am if at five minutes to five, or five minutes to leaving off time whatever it was and you wouldn't say well we'll get ready to go home you had to pick a half a link up make it into a staple and throw it in the box. Yes. That was ready for next time and you've saved That was ready for when Yeah. that time. Mm. Yeah. Yes. I forget what it was you used to make old horse rasps into because for Ooh yes! farrier has a, has a file with very, very coarse teeth on one side That's right. and slightly less coarse on the other Yes. is used for rasping the the hoof erm I can't remember what you used We used to use all sorts of things. used the old ones for. Hooks, flashers. Because that's a special hard steel isn't it? It's hard steel, now. It's not ordinary iron is it? They used to use, make them into flashers and hooks for hedge cutting and Mm. hoes for chopping out sugar Mm. beet. Yes, because of course you had all the equipment to shape it up anew Yeah. didn't you? Yeah. Mm. You could make whatever sort of shape you wanted from it I should Yeah. imagine . Yep! Mm. Yeah. That's an i ,i interesting thing talking about the names of the tools too erm flashers and hooks, now in other parts Now you never hear that. of the country you would probably hear them called a slasher and a what? I mean, nearly all people think a hook is a hook don't do, for hanging Yes. things on? Mm. Yes. Well in Suffolk you see, a hook is a thing for cutting the hedge. Yes A hooker. a a curved scy a sickle type A , yeah. shaped thing. Yes. Yes. Or a chopper. Mm. Yes. Yeah. I see. And you just call that a hook? A hook, yeah. So you di , did you call the thing you were doing hooking or not? What er Wi with hook, would you say When you were using it that you were hooking No you'd be the hedge or not? You'd be hedging. You're hedging. Yeah, hedging them. Yes, I see. Yeah. Yes. Yeah, The tool was a separate name? Yeah. Yeah. Really? Aha. Yeah. Yeah. And did you have to repair things, well you probably did, er farm instruments, I don't mean the big implements but things like their scythes and what Oh yes! have you? We used to ma , we used to buy the scythe blade and Well that was the blacksmith's bread and butter, that kind of thing. and do all the other iron work on it, you see, yes. Yes. Oh yes! Mhm. Yeah. Hoes and things like that were all er hand made. Ha! Spuds, dock spuds thistle spuds. Have you come across a spud? Now how do you spell that, S P A D It would be G D. G E. Yeah. I think it would be S P U D D, yeah. Yes? Oh just a s Yes? Spud. Yes. Sped? Spud. I think so. I think so. Really? Yeah. Th , it's a dialect word really. Oh not erm, not a spadge Yo er No. I heard the name spadge when I was No, it would be spud wouldn't it? No,spud. Really? Yeah. It's probably in the dialect book, I haven't looked it up. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. I'm rather And another good old word is the crome, now er that was one I came across for the first time when I came into Suffolk, the crome. I jolly soon learnt what a crome was, I didn't ask I waited to find out. learn a foreign language Yes. isn't it? Yes. Yes. What, what was that? Well a a Mm mm. crome is a He couldn't believe I didn't know what a crome was! that's ooh ah well either two or four times er turned down on a long handle for pouring things er out of the, I mean like, when I used to I know what it is now. when they used to put er the muck on the fields they used to put so many loads of eight and so many heaps of the well, when they pulled it out of the room they'd pulls out the crome. Like a fork bent at right angles. Angles. Oh! It's the ideal thing for that job Yes. you see. Yes. A fork , only bent over. I see! Mhm. And the old Yes. the real old gardeners and I mean well every house had one because they used to grow their own vegetables didn't they? That's right. Well when they dug the garden, after they'd dug it they always cromed it down with a crome before they planted anything. Really? Used the crome as the rake. Aha. Now could that be Mm mm. the same sort of thing that Noel bought last year when he saw one of the men in the village, using it to pull out a lot of weed from undergrowth, really I expect so. I expect so. it's er,i and it's got three prongs like that, and there's, I think, an arrowhead shape on each prong. Ah that'd be the modern ones. Yes. Yes, that would be Yes. the modern The modern one, but er adaptation. Yeah. Yes. That'd be the modern one. Similar principle. Yes. Sim sim Mhm. Yes. Yeah. It is Yeah. erm, for getting up a lot Yes. of weed? Yes. Yeah. The old style crome would be a thing about as wide as that Yeah, about ten What about ten inches wi and the Mhm. would be Yes and and the would be parallel Parallel. four times, wouldn't they? Four. And e , equally distanced. Fo for that work. Ah yes! Mhm. But for pulling the muck out of the tumble they only have two. Oh! Two tines. Did they? Yeah. More like a pitch fork bent at right angles then? But bent at right angles. Yes. That would be a muck crome? That'd be a muck Yes. crome. Yeah. And was a lot of straw in with that? Oh that was all straw, do you Ah! see? Because otherwise you couldn't have pulled No. er, sort of muck without No no. No. straw could you? No , no. No. But straw Yeah. of course. Yeah. Mhm. Yeah. And the tines on a muck crome are flat, whereas the ones on an ordinary one for all the work were either round or square. I see. Yeah. Yes. So I came across these things you see when we were first married because I used to write out all Hector's bills for him, by hand before we had a typewriter Mhm. and of , I'd come across these words you see, I'd think crome? Crome, what is that? You know ! Yes. Even to spell it And gradually the in the first place Yeah. you needed So I had to to know. yeah, so I did have to guess a great deal Mm. because no good looking in the dictionary for a lot of these things. No. No, no, no Mm. no. no. No. I assumed that a crome was C R O M E, and I still do! Yes. cos I've never come across anything else! Well I mean all the, all the all the dialect words are Phonetic really spelt aren't they? They have to be! They're spelt as you say them. They have to be! They are , that's true. Mm mm! They are phonetic. They're spelt how you say them so they can be spelt er ten different ways in the same village! And still be right! That's right, I see. Because there's no there's no dictionary spelling Cos I mean, I'd for a lot of them. well I I spells how I say it. Mm. Yes. Er somebody up the road er hundred yards would spells how he Mm. say it. I I used to notice that And there's just that little bit of It was phonetic spelling! Yes! Yeah! Yeah. When the cards were, from the er, the workshop would come in which the lads had done their work, I mean, one of them, I know dear old Pete, in particular, he'd write for crome, C R double O M, because that's how he'd say it. Croom. Yes! Yeah , croom. Yes! Yes. But it's still right. Yes! And very often the O, in the Suffolk dialect goes to an ooh doesn't it? Ooh yes! Yeah. Yes! Yes. Mhm. Home. Eith either a long ooh, or a sort ooh, like er, like in It's as a room or mostly a short one because Mm. that's a lazy language the Suffolk dialect innit? I suppose it is in a way. I suppose a lot You cu of dialect is. cut out this Yes it is isn't it? cut everything short don't you? Yes. Mm. Oh yeah. Yes you do. Yes. But it's quite different from the unpleasantly lazy speech that you get now, for instance, Lancashire i it's Yes. not true Lancashire that's spoken up there, it's a lazy you Yes. know up the city Yes Yeah. yes, yes, yes. that sort of thing. Nothing like over Yes. No. here No. dialect. Yeah, same as the erm what you get from the outskirts of London, the home counties, I call Yes. that ugly too! It is! True cockney is a treat to listen to. That's right. But there's a lot of adulterated cockney in the home counties, I used to hear it a lot in Hertfordshire. Yes. Erm, especially in the war because the evacuees of course, would come along and of course Yes. all the local children picked it up, of course they did! And we'd all go home talking like them and our mothers complained ! Er, but it was interesting all the same. It was interesting to hear them. Indeed! Yes. But that a thousand do you see a the dialects are going Yes. and they'll soon be gone and one thing which annoyed me er a Scotsman or a Welshman or an Irishman can go on television they'll accept them and they can talk their You mean as a newsreader or a a presenter of programme lingo, as a newsreader, as a presenter don't you? Exactly! Mm. and yet, if anybody go on there with a southern dialect they wouldn't well they wouldn't have them there! That's true, isn't it? Cos they aren't talking the queen's English! It's taking a Yes. long time for dialects to be accepted but I think I think that boundary is giving way Well I hope frankly. it will universally because Mm mm. I feel the Scots make a tremendous fuss about their Mm. speech and Mm. Yeah. their traditions! Mm. Yeah. You never hear on the whole the Englishman saying but I'm English! Mm. No. No you don't. We're Do you? We're too No, no. self-effacing aren't we? And yet they'll a But they they'll accept the big proposals Mm. of television and radio Yes! Yes! and that . Yes. That's right. Top jobs for them! Mm. But when you te And yet if you go for a top job in the city or anywhere an and start talking in the southern dialect they'll you. Yeah, you're, you're made a laugh of aren't you? Absolutely! Yes. That's very true! It is extraordinary! It's also true that up in Mm. Scotland they don't like to hear English accents on their television and news. Well I never! They much prefer to have their own people. Ooh! But how often do we listen to a Scottish accent? Scot yeah! And every time a trade unionist comes on. Mm. I'm afraid Yeah. we've got a little phrase, another Yeah. bloody Scot we say! Yeah. Yeah , yeah well you do! Yeah. And then you've got them You do! with the roughest of the Yes! the trade Yeah. unionists! Yes! Yeah. pretty well Scot Yeah, that's always They are! They are! Yeah. Yes. Yes. So we've been perhaps a little Mhm. bit erm reticent Yeah. about our dialects. Yes. Er Yes, yes. I I But er think it's time they But I'm not gonna change, if anybody don't, but if they can't accept me No, I don't really think so ! well they must er Well er , you can't say that it's hard to understand because I'm a Londoner and Yeah. for a long time I have been Yeah. and you never say anything that I don't understand, unless you were to use a word like crome. Well quite Oh yeah. a word, an Yeah actual word Yes. Yeah. that you've never come across. Yeah. Mm. But after all, once is enough, and once you know, you know don't you? Exactly! You don't forget. No! No. Erm You don't. No. No I That's right. I found coming into Suffolk from Hertfordshire I hadn't heard the, any East Anglian dialect before at all erm I didn't find it difficult, there were only two cases and I can remember thinking there were two people er, one of whom is still alive, er who I had great difficulty in understanding and I thought when I can follow both of them without any difficulty I shall know I really belong. Yes. And, it didn't take long with one of them, that was Dennis Mm, Dennis . and the other one, I don't know whether you knew him, I think he lived in Earlsome for a time didn't he? No, well Monksome Didn't he? Monksome Monksome Erm, a chap called Ben erm No, I don't No. I expect he was days before and my word he was difficult to follow! Was he? Yeah. Yes. Er he spoke fast, that was the problem, most Oh yes! Suffolk people don't. No, they don't. They give you time to listen and time to think They do. but he spoke quickly with a very strong accent and that Yes. took me a lot of years before I could and I was so pleased when once I was able to say to you I've Ben had been in the shop and we'd had a chat hadn't we? Yeah. You and me and him and Joe , was another Yeah. one and we'd had a chat for a long, long time and I said to him afterwards, I was able to understand everything he said! Wonderful! I was so pleased ! That's an achievement ! Yes ! You know one thing that's striking me at this moment actually, when you talk about when you came into Suffolk and you Mm mm. met er, Hector and you told me once before you had no eyes for anyone else there. That's right. Perfectly true! Erm , in these days when er, so large a proportion of marriages breaks down Mm. erm it seems to me that the marriage that has an interest to your occupation, let's say, in the man's hands Mhm. if you like Mhm. er, although you've got your own artistic contribution which you also combine with True, yes. Hector's work That has been a great erm strength to us. Oh, I think that's a a tremendous Yes. strength to a marriage! Yes. Yes. I feel the same with Noel Yes. if there's something really interesting that you have Yes. between the two Yeah. of you Yes. Yeah. erm, you don't give up at the first little hurdle. Course you don't! No, No. No It makes an incredible bond doesn't it? Doesn't it? Absolutely! Yeah. I feel that. Yes! Yeah. Yes. Makes it a good recipe for a good marriage. Ooh yes! Yeah. Yes. It really does! And I th , I think about a great deal because it's a very strange, it's a very strange thing to talk about but when I came to Suffolk, I might have told you this before er, I had hardly been away from home at all, I was only seventeen when I first met him Mm. and I had a very sheltered life, I was an only child, I hadn't been around much, I hadn't stayed away from home erm and I came to Suffolk to visit a girl penfriend who was working at Brandeston Hall and erm she at that time was expecting to get engaged to a chappy in the village here who was, and still is a friend of Hector's and ours, and they didn't marry in the finish but she at that time wanted me to come up to Suffolk to see her and to meet this chappy who she thought she was going to marry and erm so, it was holiday from the art school where I was and I thought well why not? I'll erm, I'll venture and, and my parents said yes, that would be alright and so er so I came along and erm of course, it happened that he was in the he was in the forge talking to Hector on the first evening I came and that was how we met. Mm. And erm,i it was an extraordinary thing! But added to that, I can well remember staying at Kettleborough Chequers erm and er walking along from Kettleborough to Brandeston erm th the very next morning after I'd come here and I think it was before I think it was quite likely before we had we had actually met, I don't know whether it was the first day or the second Yeah, that we met in in the shop there but the strong impression I had is walking over the hill from Kettleborough where the gun club now is walking down into this valley and seeing that view of this little end of the village nestling in the hollow and I can remember feeling a extraordinarily strong sensation that I could easily live there Yes. I could belong there Yes. and I had never felt it anywhere else and I've never felt it since! Isn't that wonderful! But it, there was something that felt right. I yes, I really believe in that Yes. feeling! A sense of belonging. Most extraordinary! I belong here. Yes. Yes. Because I hadn't been around much, I hadn't been away from home Really? and i it was quite forcible! Yes. And er Marvellous! Yes. I think if one's receptive to things like that Yes. you know, it si , it Yes. it strikes you Yes. doesn't it? Yes Mm. It does. And er There was a rightness about it. And you don't forget it because No! you're young enough to be so impressed by it. Mhm. Yes. Yes. That's wonderful! Yes, there was a rightness about it. Right. Okay . Ha. Erm and er I've felt that same sense of rightness at many times over these years, this is now our thirty seventh year? Thirty seven, yeah I Nineteen think so. No, thirty eight. Thirty eight. This is nineteen ninety two. Yeah. This'll be our thirty eighth year in December. So it's several. Erm there have been times doing work which we have er, worked on together different jobs when I have thought, yes this is what I'm here for. Yes. Very, very strongly! Yes. And never, never more so than, of course, working on the sword stand. Yes. Never more so than that! That was wonderful I thought wasn't it? I the work I'd done in the past the training I've had the experience I've had with Hector and his work that was all leading up to that. All coming to it. It all came together. Yes. I can quite see that really. It all came together. Because Yes. that was a whole thing wasn't it? It was the culmination. Connection with the Yes. city. It was! It was! Er Mhm. the ancientness of the Mm. actual Yeah. thing Mhm. you were copying. The significance of what it was for. For. Absolutely! Yes. Everything Absolutely! about it. And now, of Yes. course, it sits Mm. America with Yeah. Mm. its sword in it Yeah. Mm. on certain occasions. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. It's a it's a permanent tribute to your It's collaboration It's an extraordinary forever in America. it is an extraordinary thing, an Yes. amazing, an amazing sensation Yeah. for it to be, isn't it? Yeah. Yes. Yeah. It's wonderful! Yes. Yes. And erm not in any way in competition with ni with er apostle's creed or anything else. It's a quite different er er er er animal. It's er the, the apostle's creed ha has erm er er er is erm out of a different background and that er compiled in a different context altogether, it's polemic law so often, this is doxological. These are, we are saying here things that we rejoice to say and which we give glory to God. It just has that particular slant, that particular emphasis. So I would prefer to let you be the judge of it as it stands today. Any discussion, if we enter into any discussion, we start tinkering with it and er we don't know where we'd end. I leave it as it stands. May I ask the clerk to kindly read the addendum since we don't have it in print. It is in the erm statement of faith to substitute for the phrase by his death on the cross the words he died on the cross for the sins of the world. Those who vote for that addendum would you please stand. Those who vote for. Would you please sit. Thank you. Those who vote against would you please stand. I declare it has been carried against. Any other contributions on deliverance number four? Ian number three two six. A, a, a brief amendment Moderator er to the deliverance, not to the text of the statement. I have sympathy for the view of the convenor that it has been er revised er enough. Er it reads er to add to, an addendum to section four further instruct the panel when addressing concern for a modern confession of faith, to give consideration to the difficulties involved in common confession of faith today. Er I think the panel have er admirably completed a difficult task in drawing together the, the statement of faith they have presented. Er I'm impressed that they are willing to er potentially consider a, a further difficult task in drawing up a confession of faith. Er perhaps we have not, up until this point, considered just how difficult that task is. I think there are aspects of the world in which we live and, and er, in which the church lives which make common confession of faith particularly difficult er today. We tend to conceive er generally of faith very much in personal terms, we see it as personal faith. Er we think of the mission of the church very largely in terms of personal evangelism. Er I think in an age of such individualism er the whole natu nature and possibility of common confession of faith becomes difficult er and I'd simply ask that, if it's going to go ahead and consider possibly a confession of faith, that the panel er might give consideration to the difficulties gen gen generally involved in er the, the question of common confession of faith today. I move the amendment. He now informs me that he's willing to accept that addendum. Is it the will of the assembly to accept that addendum? Thank you. D Dr Number sixty, G F . Moderator this is a, a new er for a new five. haven't approved of number four yet. Oh I'm sorry We've still to, we've still to come to I'm sorry the gap between four and five. Thank you. Any more addendums and Are you making an amendment or an addendum? I just want to make a very brief comment first of all. Yes certainly. Thank you. Number eleven, the name is Margaret . I should like to congratulate the panel on doctrine on the very difficult job they did in handling all these responses from kirk session. Our kirk session was one which objected very strenuously to the use seven times of the male pronoun in the section on the holy spirit. I think what they have done reads beautifully as English is very profound theologically and it uses language that is not gender specific. I congratulate them on that and hope that in the future they will carry on that practice. Thank you. Now I'm going to come now, I think, it will be the mind of the assembly to take the vote on, for deliverance number four and Mr 's counter motion. And as I've indicated, I'm now going to ask the convenor to sum up. You have the right of reply to Mr 's counter motion. Well Mr took a terrific swipe at us and I think I couldn't possibly enter into the detail of controversy involved there. I th stick to my former line I think that we've all had a look at this, er we, I believe it's a useful, serviceable instrument and I rest my case. Thank you. Now could we just hear Mr 's counter motion again please Mr . Then I'll call a vote for the deliverance or against the counter motion. Moderator the counter motion is in section four as it stands to stop in the second line after the word commentary. Delete all the words after commentary. Thank you. Now we have the deliverance number four before us in print as the motion. Could I ask those who wish to vote for the motion, deliverance number four as in print on page one eight five, to stand please. Thank you. Those wishing to vote now for the counter motion in the name of Mr to please stand. Thank you. I declare that the motion has been carried, that is the deliverance as in print, number four on page one eight five. Now we've quite a we, we have first of all, in the light green papers notice of motion from Mr Ainsley of moving a new five. I've also heard Dr wishing to move a new five, Dr I think yours will be five B, and I call first of all on Mr . Moderator Mr six four eight. This brilliant piece of oratory which I have in my hand here, in addition to many other valuable insights, contains three alternative definitions of faith, two gentle digs at Professor , and one definitive statement of when the third millennium begins. However I am not so enamoured of the sound of my own voice that, bearing in mind what er Dr has said about the amount of business, I would insist on inflicting it upon it if someone would be prepared to second it and the convenor and the assembly be prepared to accept it. Accordingly I formally move it, but if the a that acceptance is not forthcoming, then I would have to deliver my speech. Mr I really should say Ainsley, it's just like being back in Trinity College with you. Could I have a comment from the convenor. Simply to indicate what your mind is. Not just I think we'd be er prepared to accept this at, what's asked for is a feasibility study, no more than that in the first instance and I think we'd be prepared to accept. Is it the mind of the assembly that we accept this? Thank you Mr for arranging your argument that way. Dr Dr you've a new number five. Sixty, So you've a new number six now This very brief motion I've discussed with the convenor who will accept it and also with the general secretary of worl of the board of the world mission who was ready also to co-operate with it. The my proposal is simply this consider the feasibility of a theological examination of anti-semitism. Just like that, without any, any restriction. Now I do this sir, because last week in the council of Christian and Jews in Edinburgh we had one of the profoundest meetings I've been at, in which very distinguished people, Jews and er er Christians were concerned with the fact that anti-semitism, at the very bottom, is anti-God, it opposed to revelation. And behind all the ethnic and sociological and other religious elements, there is something very deep, and this struck a deep chord with me. When I was a student in Germany and encountering fierce anti-semitism and a fierce anti-Jewish relations I, I soon realised that at the back of this was a direct attack upon the concrete revelation of God in history through Israel and the church, which called in question German nationalism, German blood and soil. Now I believe that the time has come for us to think again about the theological side, the theological er and I make this proposal consider the feasibility of a theological examination anti- semitism and the convenor is ready to accept it Thank you sir. Thank you. Dr do you accept? Yes, may I just say a word here Yes you may. Moderator we, we do accept this but maybe I could er say just a word to the assembly about the workload as it were of this panel on doctrine. If you look at er the erm the er papers, what's the book called, the order of proceedings, you'll discover that we are quite a small body of four a convenor, vice convenor four ministers four elders four others and one representative from each of the four faculties erm of divinity.. from those members of the faculty who are members of the Church of Scotland. Now that number is small and decreasing it seems to me. Er furthermore er so the number upon whom we can draw is, is really minimal, and we do depend heavily on the help of the professional theologians, though we're all theologians you know I, I subscribe to the idea that we're all theologians, I won't listen to these people who say I'm no theologian. We're all theologians, but we do obviously depend heavily on the help of the professionals. Er that help is, there are fewer to draw from,i it's also far more difficult for them to spare the time, the pressures on the academics are considerable nowadays. So er as I say we do accept this but we have to er be careful just how much we undertake, and mercifully on this case there is no time limit,a and also I think we have the assurance from the board of world mission and unity, that they and any others who are, have something to offer, will help us. So on that understanding I accept. Is it the will of the general assembly so to accept and approve? Do you wish to speak against? I wish to suggest an addendum. To Dr 's thank you. four four two. Moderator I declare my interest as a member of the panel on doctrine but I wanted to enquire whether Professor would be willing to include not only the problem of anti-semitism but what seems to me to be the opposite problem which also exists today, which is the problem of Zionism. And I wonder if we do not need to enquire into the theological basis of both. Dr , would you include that within your statement? No this would, this would be mixing up two very different things. that's right. Like oil and water. S so has to be done, I wouldn't agree with it. I'm just asking Professor for my own clarification at this stage, and it is that he does not agree to accept Mr 's addendum. And so therefore I have to ask now is there anybody willing to second Mr 's addendum? It is being seconded. Any discussion? Then we have a vote as to whether to accept or not to accept Mr 's addendum. Could I ask the clerk to read it please or to recall oh sorry, the convenor, yes indeed. I tend, Moderator, to Professor 's view that this complicates the issue and we'd be better to deal with anti-semitism by itself first of all. Shall we, shall we still, we w w we still have the, the, the issue of voting now for or against Mr 's addendum. And I wonder if one of the clerks could just put it before us please. The this amendment Moderator is simply to add to what we've already agreed the er feasibility of a theological examination, not only on anti-semitism but also Zionism. Those voting for Mr 's addendum on Zionism would you please stand. Thank you. Those voting against. It is carried against, and so I come back to the new erm section being proposed by Professor on anti-semitism and concurred by the convenor, Dr , and put it to the assembly. Is that approved by the assembly that that is then given to the panel as a new responsibility? Now we come in the er blue papers page sixty five to the notice of two new sections six and seven in the name of Mr , and I'd ask Mr to speak to these please. David one six three. Moderator I'm going to ask the general assembly to turn their mind to quite a different subject now. We've had baptism, we've had statement of faith, we've had anti-semitism we're going to think now about intercommunion all under the umbrella of the panel of doctrine. Moderator I refer commissions t commissioners to appendix two on page one hundred and ninety one of the blue book. There we read in line seven of the desirability of retaining a bilateral contact between our two churches on matters of doctrine a desire express, I'm glad to note, by our Roman Catholic friends and that's good. Then in the last two lines of the appendix I read the panel on doctrine seeks permission for the joint commission to meet twice yearly as necessary to study documents of doctrinal interest. I don't think that's quite so good and why because of its evident ab absence of the note of urgency and its lack of specifics. Moderator all the main line churches have recognized a divine call to unity throughout this century. But the century is fast running out. While there are glimmers of light the establishment of ACT two years ago increasing ecumenical activities at grass roots level, some referred to by Bishop this morning I believe that the times require a note of urgency in our response to God's call. And God's world in its great need requires a visible sign that we are all truly united and no longer divided in our allegiance to Christ as lord. Growing together is a step by step process. I say real progress has been made but today I am asking you to think about the next step a step that I am sure we all feel is at the heart of the matter a transforming step perhaps the critical step that will guarantee ultimate success in fulfilling god's loving will for his church. The next breakthrough to my mind centres around the lord's table. Our Roman Catholic friends already recognize our common baptism into Christ. They recognize also that we are together the body of Christ in the world, I hear them saying so now. So it would seem logical that the invitation to the lord's table should be reciprocal, and why is it not? An Archbishop in the hierarchy has said to me recently oh I feel the pain but Rome does not permit it. You've all heard that and I've heard it for about thirty years now. Now that reason without large expansion cannot satisfy fellow Christians. And is that really the case? Vatican two, in the decree on ecumenism number eight, certainly says that sharing in the sacrament should not be indiscriminate. I quote further it should only be used to signify the unity of the church and it should provide a sharing in the means of grace. The gaining of a needed grace sometimes commends it. Now all that from Vatican two and its decree. Now with that statement as guide, discretion is left to the local bishop. It is happening now not just occasionally but increasingly on the continent, but not yet here in Scotland. There is also the oft repeated argument that we should not sit down together at the table until after unity is accomplished. But I repeat if we are united in a common baptism united together as the body of Christ in the world the primary union in Christ is acknowledged. Unity of organization which by its nature will be a very longterm matter and unity in doctrines not of the substance of the faith, and we all know of significant divisions there, do not affect the central doctrine. And here I come to the crux of what I want to say. What really matters is whether or not we all believe certain essentials about the sacraments. That the Lord Jesus is always the host at his table present in our midst as we do as he commanded. That in and under the bread and wine, as Calvin put it, set apart from common use to this holy use to represent his body and blood, he feeds us with his very life I in you and you in me, I the vine and you the branches. No chemical change takes place in the bread and the wine, nor in ourselves. Now that is accepted by all and I've discussed it recently I say with one of the Roman Catholic hierarchy. Transubstantiation now listen carefully I have discovered this in conversation to be a matter of semantics of words. I've said to my brother Roman Catholic if what you are saying is that the substance of the godhead is in a mystery transferred into our substance that is to say that we are recipitents recipients in the sacrament of the divine life then we go out in faith together believing the same essential. If that is so, and it does seem to be so, is it not time that we rejoice together while we are being nourished together at his table. I am asking today that our commissioners ask the Scottish bishops, in accordance with the permission granted in Vatican two's decree, to allow an open table on ecumenical occasions. Now note I'm not asking at this point in time for a general opening. Our own reform in the matter needs clearer definition and our people need a lot of teaching and the panel could help us there. My fi five minutes are now just about up so I finish moderator by affirming that I'm allowed one more minute after the bell. I finish Moderator affirming that if we are in communion with Jesus Christ we are necessarily in communion with one other. All other doctrines are very secondary to that, and the question is are we to express that reality or must we continue to obscure it. We must express it for the world to see and to believe. I plead with our commissioners and their counterparts in the Roman Catholic side to concentrate on this issue and not to dally for this I believe is the golden key to that greater, completer, richer and more effective church that is surely coming under God. Is this seconded? Thank you. Could I ask the convenor just to make a statement. It's not, it's not his summing up, it's just a point of clarification to indicate whether he may or may not accept this. Moderator I think I'm wholly in sympathy with this. One thing er pu puzzles me a little and gives me a little difficulty, that is erm the addendum refers to an invitation to all baptised members. I imagine communicant members would make this a little easier. Mr any comment? I'd be happy about that. You'll be happy with that, thank you. And so we Moderator Yes? Of course you can, you're a delegate and entitled to speak Bishop at any time. one two eight nine I think. Er Twelve eighty nine sounds more historical. Twelve eighty nine. I'm sure there's some awful battle where we got er knocked about but still I hope that's not a presage of what's gonna happen now. I'm rather unprepared for this one admittedly, but it seemed to me that if you're quoting a member of the absent hierarchy, you might as well hear er from, from a present member. Erm certainly I will carry back to my fellow bishops what is expressed here, concern about the question of sacramental intercommunion. I would like to say one or two things which might help in understanding. One is that it isn't all just a question of the Scottish hierarchy being thralled to Rome in such a way that it cannot do what it wants. Nor is it a question of our seeking a dispensation from the holy see to accede to some request locally. The question that we are looking at is a question, not simply of discipline, but a matter that depends on our understanding, not just of the eucharist, but of the nature of the church. And so we're talking not just about sacramental communion, but ecclesial communion. And these are matters that we are, and will be for the future the immediate future and perhaps for the more distant future thoroughly engaged upon because there are very deep questions here and the sacramental one hinges upon the ecclesial one. Now as regards the actual well perhaps I should add to that, that there are two principles if you like in the theological field which govern the practice of the church. One is the principle that given ecclesial communion, that ecclesial communion is represented, is signified, is sacramentalized, is celebrated in, at the lord's table. Now that is not to deny that it is in effect surely of bringing Christians together, but there are certain questions. At what point do you, in all honesty and sincerity er celebrate a sacrament which is a sacrament of giving unity as well as bringing unity forward. The other principle is the principle of particular need. In other words,sacramenta procta hominas the sacraments are for the good of men and woman, of course the hominas in Latin includes both, it's inclusive language for the sake of er well of certain persons who will be picking me up And that is why there are occasions, particularly on the continent, when Christians from other denominations are positively welcomed at the table. Because the local church recognizes in the person of its priest or bishop their need for the sacrament, and the unavailability of the sacrament within their own communion. And those two principles are the governing principles at present in the practice of the Catholic Church with regard to admission to the sacrament. Let me finish in a very positive note in saying that I'm as concerned as the speaker to which I reply that that day will be reached and reached soon, please God, when we can sit down together and share fully in the sacrament of the lord's supper. Thank you. Any other any other discussion? Mr Moderator, thirteen forty two and convenor of the Board of World Mission and Unity. To remind the assembly that this is a matter which was raised I think by Mr a couple of years ago and when a very similar motion was accepted by the Board er asking us to raise this matter with the the Roman Catholic hierarchy in Scotland, which we did er we know that there has been attention paid to this by the, the hierarchy. About six months ago, our deputy general secretary wrote to Monseigneur , the general secretary of the bishops conference, and er told him that we hoped progress was being made, referred in particular to the degree of consensus that had been a arrived at in the baptism eucharist and ministry document and er also to the difference that had been made by the coming into being of ACTS and its commission on unity faith and order and we had a reply to that er a letter from Monseigneur assuring as that the hierarchy were taking this seriously, that they were discussing it er amongst themselves in Scotland and were also in discussion with Rome on the subject as well. Er and as would have been noted in the in our report to this general assembly on page four hundred and nine, we say at the end of er the paragraph in the middle of the the page in which we are referring to ACTS and its commissions, in this connection it should be noted that the church's approach to the Roman Catholic bishops conference of Scotland on the question of intercommunion is under discussion in that conference and in the ACTS commission on unity faith and order. So although there is not as yet any definitive question, any definitive answer to this same question which was raised by Mr a couple of years ago, it is under consideration and we would hope that the sort of answer which he is hoping for might be forthcoming from that source. If the convenor is willing to accept this and I'm aware of the time, if anybody wishes to strongly speak to a new point or a new angle on this matter, I'd really prefer to call on the convenor to sum up. Would that be the will of the assembly? Thank you. Moderator it's a great joy to hear Bishop speaking in this particular context on this subject. He and I enjoy very happy ecumenical relations and personal friendship and we've argued this out in our respective cathedrals before now. Erm I, he has these two principles and we respect them. I think there are other two principles though which I hope you would feel we er should respect. One is that erm in this matter, especially the matter sacramental, we are always anticipating when every time we celebrate the lord's supper we anticipate the marriage feast of the lamb. We don't wait till the kingdom comes before we celebrate, we celebrate now in joyful anticipation. Our lord taught us to pray er er give us this day our daily bread but we all know when we've read our commentaries that the word epusios means of tomorrow, give us today the bread of tomorrow. And therefore I think this principle of anticipation i is also an equally valid er er principle that we, we should er er look forward in faith to the day when we celebrate, and on occasions we should be able to anticipate that unity. Furthermore, we believe that the very celebrating of the sacrament does bring us more speedily on the way to that longed for unity. I think it's quite proper for us to be importunate and hammer on the door and say it again as, as the deliverance would have us say, and I'm sure our Roman friends will understand our importunity. Now to the assembly these new sections six and seven, is it the mind of the assembly to accept these? Thank you. Is it the mind of the assembly to accept the deliverance as amended as a whole now? Thank you. Dr before we pass to other business, I would like to thank you very much indeed for all the work that the very small size panel on doctrine has carried out for the good of the assembly and the work of the church. Thank you. A call for the report on the Board of Social R Responsibility. Moderator four hundred and seventy five. Moderator I reported to the general assembly last year that the Board of Social Responsibility had planned a deficit on its operation of thirty eight eventide homes amounting to a little over two million pounds. At that time I explained that although the Board's weekly rate on these homes was low, due to our policy of not charging any element for capital in the rate we calculate, the Department of Social Security made available to elderly people in residential care in the community an allowance in that year of forty pounds and in this present year of fifty five pounds per week below the cost of such care in any of our homes where the cost is already artificially depressed. The Board's policy of completely absorbing all capital costs and charging nothing for income on capital amounts on average to a subsidy of ninety six pounds per resident per week. And the Board thinks there's a reasonable subsidy to offer to its elderly residents. It is with considerable regret that I now have to tell the general assembly that although other parts of the Board's work, and the Board's investicl invested capital have performed well from a financial point of view, the anticipated deficit on thirty eight eventide homes has been sustained. Representations have been made and are being made to her majesty's government. We see this underfunding of eventide care as limiting the choice available to people who have come to that point in their lives when they're making decisions about the sort of care that they will next require. It is our hope that the Department of Social Security will move in keeping with the findings of the all party parliamentary select committee on social security to correct this underfunding before the responsibility for meeting the cost of residential care in the community is transferred from the D S S to local authorities a year from now. In the meantime, the Board is looking for ways to fund the deficit should it continue, but has decided not to charge the deficit as an additional burden upon those residents who are able to pay their own way from their own resources, and not to move from its established principle of offering care to those most in need towards a degenerate policy of offering care only to those who are most able to pay. Needless to say, needless to say this deficit has not involved any additional call whatsoever upon the mission and aid fund of the church from which the Board receives an annual contribution of around four hundred thousand pounds towards its overall budget of twenty million pounds. Moderator that works out at a contribution of seventy five pence per minute towards the actual cost of our operation of forty pounds and twenty three pence per minute. The Board has met the deficit entirely from its own resources and has had to budget, as I've said, a continuing deficit into the current financial year. All other parts of the Board's work have been budgeted within acceptable limits. And I should say to the general assembly that the Board's four homes for people with senile dementia are differently funded and any deficits there are made up by grants from health boards and social work departments which are prohibited from making up the deficit in eventide care. During nineteen ninety one the Board has been delighted to open new areas of work in Inverness where our first designated place and associated hostel was opened on a most happened happy day by Sir Russell . In Elderslie near Paisley where Lady the wife of last year's Lord High Commissioner opened our fourth senile dementia unit. In Haddington in, in East Lothian where Tyne Park House now offers a mental health service within that county. But while new projects were opening, the Board was forced to depart from its Shetland Islands project which had been undertaken at the invitation of the Shetland Islands Council and the Island Council Charitable Trust. This work was undertaken on the assurance from the Council and Charitable Trust that those bodies would resp would, would respect the Board's employment policy. In the event, although both Charitable Trust and Council had given assent to the first advert on the policy agreed, they baulked at the second wave of recruiting, and sought to change the basis of our agreement. Even going to the length of alleging in the public press that it was the Board which was in breach of its contract. As we indicate to the general assembly in the printed report, the Board could have insisted on its rights under contract made with those bodies and the Board was confident that it would have won any action in the courts. But to pursue this matter would have delayed for some years the opening of much needed services. It is nonetheless a matter of deep regret that the Board has had to depart from this project and that the first of these care centres on Whalsay, which would have been opened in November nineteen ninety one had the agreement been left unaltered, was still not open at the beginning of this month. Nonetheless, we take some satisfaction from the knowledge that the involvement of the Board did break the logjam at the earlier stage of this project, and we're able to report that the Shetland Island Council Charitable Trust has recognized the work of the done by the Board in its final settlement of its account with us. Last year the general assembly decided nem con without demur on the advice of the assembly council that the Board of Social Responsibility should move away from the church's office in George Street. And we now report that the arrangements towards this move are well on track for execution this year, some time ahead of the timescale that we indicated last year. This will liberate much needed space in one two one, and enable the Board to bring together its central administration in one place for the first time ever. In this time of new opportunity, as the Board is making arrangements to move to its new home and looking to developments in every area of service, we've also recognized that opportunities abound for local parish initiatives to attract funding from a variety of places. For this reason, the Board has sought to liaise with such local initiatives and to ensure that wherever possible, the expertise and experience of the Board will be made available to them. One area in which local initiatives within the church have proved invaluable has been in the delivery of service to people with H I V or AIDS and to their families, and to their loved ones. Last year the general assembly gave to the Board of Social Responsibility a task of coordinating the work of the church in this field and we are proud now to be able to report to the general assembly that the work done by the assembly's various Boards and by numerous local initiatives make the Church of Scotland the nation's leading provider of services to the victims of H I V and to their families delivering both the most extensive and the most comprehensive service to these people within Scotland. Although the church has traditionally been reluctant to expose those to whom it delivers this service to public attention, the general assembly ought to know of the scale of the kirk's response. And I pay tribute now to all those parish and local church initiatives, to all the work done by the major Boards of the church and of course, to those who deliver the service on behalf and in the name of the Board of Social Responsibility. In the field of addiction to alcohol and other drugs, the Board has been glad to see the wholly responsible position taken by the National Union of Students in its response to the pressures on young people to drink. The Board has been delighted to congratulate her majesty's government er in its insistence that factors such as public order should be taken into account in the fixing of a Europe wide alcohol pricing policy. And in response to the growing number of women presenting with problems associated with alcohol dependence, the Board in its report this year makes some moderate and practical proposals about the way in which alcohol might responsibly be marketed. It is in its work on health and healing, the Board of Social Responsibility has for some years now been concerned with the provision of training conferences for ministers and others involved in this aspect of the church's commission. When this particular work was added to the Board's remit, it was our intention to offer the church advice under our social interest section and important reports were prepared and submitted to the general assembly and accepted. But the Board now asks the general assembly to look again at this part of our remit and to form a judgment about where this work should be most effectively done in future. We ask the general assembly to remit to the assembly council to give attention to the placing of health and healing within the overall work of the church and to report to next year's general assembly on where they think this remit should most effectively be discharged. In nineteen ninety the general assembly instructed the panel on doctrine to consider anew the question of the Christian doctrine of marriage, and to undertake this work in consultation amongst others with the Board of Social Responsibility. This consultation has been effected through the Board's own study group on family matters, whose work the Board reports to this general assembly. The Board is happy to commend this work to the church and directs the church's attention to the contemporary statement of the Christian ideal of the family contained within that report. In making these statements the church is not standing aloof from the unconverted instructing them on how they ought to live their lives rather the church is speaking to itself, holding before all its members the id the ideal of what we believe God has taught in his word about the way in which people ought to live. In that sense, our failure to measure up to that ideal can be seen, can be measured, can be understood, and the strength of the holy spirit can be sought as we all strive in his power not to fail in future. And in saying this sort of thing to its own members, the church also invites the rest of the community to find for itself, people within the community to find for themselves, the positive benefits of living in obedience to the word of God. In addition to this major report on the Christian family, which is the Board's contribution to the twin track work with the panel on doctrine, the Board also offers an interim report on young people in the media, and its final report presaged at last year's general assembly on ritual abuse. Moderator in commending these reports to the general assembly and in particular, in presenting its work on ritual abuse, the Board is conscious of its deep indebtedness to those who have looked on its behalf at the mixture of evidence and conjecture on this most disturbing area of modern human depravity. Moderator it's hard within the space of these few minutes to give a sense of the breadth of the Board's work. And in focusing on some problem areas it's possible to fail to give an impression of the enormous privilege it is to serve the church and her lord in social responsibility. But I would not be true to myself if I did not record my own thanks to all who serve on the Board for their hard and devoted work and at this time, to take a moment to thank the retiring vice convenor Bill for his work, his prayers, his support, his wisdom and his fellowship over the many years that he and I have served together. Moderator I submit the report and I move the deliverance. Is it seconded? Seconded. Questions to the convenor? Yes? nine hundred and forty. My question concerns the Shetland Island project and the question is this how much has the withdrawal of the Board of Social Responsibility from the Shetland Islands project got to do with the Board's policy on social responsibility appointed staff being sympathetic to the Christian faith, and how much has it got to do with the fact that the Shetland Islands Council no longer need the Board of Social Responsibility to be able to spend charitable trust money, in other words oil money, without jeopardizing community charge support grant? I was six and a half years the, the minister of Whalsay and Skerries where the first er centre h ha has been built and there was rejoicing in that community that the that social responsibility had been invited by the council to join in this work. And er at that time when it was being mooted the, the council could not spend this charitable trust money without putting into jeopardy vast sums of money from revenue grant speaker that you've put your questions and I think they're sufficiently clear for the convenor to reply. Yes Moderator Mr is known to the Board and his support was greatly appreciated erm when these projects were being mooted. Erm I don't know the answer to his question but I think he's put his finger upon a point. Further questions? Thank you. seven three two. I have a brief question and one comment. I look with pleasure to see that the asse Please may I ask you sir to limit yourself to your question. Yes well the, the question is that I notice in the assets that investments at cost were twenty five million, the present market value is twenty eight million, indeed since that's been written it may even be more and when I looked down to the other side of the accounts, I noticed interest on capital of twelve hundred and four pounds and I wonder where the interest from the twenty eight million has gone to. Erm I s suspect that it's er the one million two hundred and forty two thousand transfer from general operating reserve is that figure but may I make one comment your question only That's the question Convenor will reply. Yes Moderator the commissioner is mistaken, the investments at cost were seventeen million nine hundred and ninety seven pounds two hundred and ten. Erm the market value he's right to say is now twenty eight million two hundred and twenty four pounds er two hundred and twenty four thousand six hundred and twenty four pounds erm and that's what's happened to the interest. It's, it's, it's marched with the capital and that's why erm the capital value of our investments is so much higher than the cost. Thank you. one comment No questions only at the moment. There are a great many deliverances in due course to consider. Five four eight . Er Moderator you'll probably not let me speak either but this is a quite serious problem and er I don't, I don't apologise for it because this is what's known as a donor card. Now this assembly can I get a couple of minutes please? Can you put your question. Yeah I, but I mean I've but I've got to give you a small area of background. Well it's a very important subject. Let er me hear the question and I shall know if a background is required. You won't understand the question without a Moderator Mod Moderator a wee Moderator questions are asked for clarification of points in the report at this stage, they're not asked, it's not general questions that we're into. I, I mean I can understand all this but I'm, I'm just asking I'm, I'm asking, I've been here since Saturday now I've sat here I've sat here patiently, and I've lifti I've listened to all the briefly's and I think I'm due a brief word to the assembly on this particular item which to me is very important. There are people on waiting lists, and I just want the chance to say something on this subject which will take two minutes. You you're chance will come in due course sir when we're making comments but at the moment it's just But I'm just now Moderator. I mean If I don't g I I just I think having I think having waited so patiently for so long that you can wait a little lo further. I must as ask What you to retain your seat meantime sir. Could, could you give me a shout when I'm due? I I er This is really this is really just in case I fall asleep. I couldn't possibly forget you. Thank you. Further questions. Yes three one four. I'd I'd like to know the, the, the Board's I'd like to know the Board's position on fostering. I ask this question purely and simply because of all the children's homes that are being closed, and these children need a caring and a happy home life and could the Board encourage church members to become foster parents? An answer will come, yes? Yes Moderator. Erm it's now some years since the Board departed from most of its work with erm in children's homes, I think we have only one children's home now operating in Stonehaven. Erm at that time erm we did erm report at some length on the question of fostering and exactly what the commissioner's asked for was the burden of the advice that we gave. Moderator Yes? Er eighty seven. Er this is a, this is a question concerning something which is not mentioned here, which I think should have been. Erm the complete absence of any emphasis er in the deliverances on erm child abuse er child sexual abuse which is a most horrible sin. This was er reported on a couple of years ago but we've heard nothing since, is there any action? The convenor will answer, yes? Yes moderator, erm last year, two year's ago the general assembly a very major report from the Board of Social Responsibility on the question of child abuse. Erm we have produced a study pack which has been extremely well used within the church erm and is still being extremely well used. It also contained erm guidelines erm er from Lord the then procurator now Lord Penrose erm on the way in which ministers ought to respond in cases of child abuse. Erm having produced that report and having erm er done the follow up on it, it doesn't seem to me that it would be reasonable for the general assembly to expect that the Board would come back year after year with repetitions of what we've already said, and that's why the commissioner notices that erm we don't report this year on child abuse. Thank you. Someone here I think? Yes please twelve thirty three, and if you look you'll see I'm from Orkney. I, I'm a general practitioner and I would like to back up initially what the convenor has said about the study pack that has come on child abuse but I have a question. Could you put the question first please. The question is why is there no mention in the paper on ritual abuse er of the use of general practitioners to assist ministers in areas of difficulty? Thank you. Yes Moderator I'm grateful to the commissioner for the, for the question. Erm again this is something on which we've already advised ministers and in the context of the, the report on ritual abuse, specifically refers to the as,a as, as the context in which it's offered, to the c erm report on, on child abuse. Any further questions? Yes? Please Er I'll call you next, yes? one O six O. Moderator could the convenor tell us why the Board wishes to be discharged its remit on health and healing when it's been so successful in bringing this to the notice of the whole church? grateful to Mr for his very erm generous en endorsement of the work that the Board has done on health and healing. As I said in pre presenting the Board's report, when this matter was first given to us, we were invited to advise the general assembly on matters relating to health and healing, and that we did. At that time the general assembly didn't remove the remit from us and so we were emboldened by being allowed to continue erm to run some training conferences for ministers and others in the church who were involved in sharing this ministry of healing within the nation. However th th the fit of that training work for ministers and others within the church has sat less and less easily with the Board's commission to advise the church, and that's our social interests commission, to advise the church erm on matters of social, ethical or moral importance within its remit. And so because of that sense of ill ease of fit, we decided that perhaps it would be appropriate for the assembly council to look at where this work ought to most comfortably go. If the assembly council decides to report to next year's general assembly that the Board of Social Responsibility is the best of all possible places for this work in training and advising ministers and others on health and healing, then we'll happily accept that. But I don't think that will be the finding of the assembly council. Thank you. Yes? Please er eleven ninety. Could I ask a couple of questions about the section on family matters Moderator? Erm I'd like to thank the er the Board for this er helpful part of the report. First of all I'm looking at page three hundred and fifty in the blue book. At the end of paragraph four three two. Er where the report has been pointing out the cost, not just in financial terms, but in terms of, of hurt and unhappiness of a home breaking up, a family breaking up. I'd like to ask the convenor erm how would he have er replied to a young woman who came to me fairly recently whose husband had just left home by mutual agreement, and for the sake of their children and er she said to me after he had gone er that the home was a much happier place now that there was, they had been freed from the tension that they had been going through in a very difficult time. The children are no longer worried about dad coming home drunk or arguments between er husband and wife. Erm I appreciate the point that the Board's making about the hurt caused by broken families but how pastorally would one respond to this case? Thank you. Yes reply. Moderator nine eight O, the convenor of the study group on family matters. Erm naturally that is a problem that er exists and er people presumably divorce because of the pressures and problems that are there. If I could lead you from that paragraph on page three fifty over to page three six four page three six four, one two three, four paragraphs from the top it's ab it's the second of two paragraphs that begins the Board affirms the church's th that Christ teaches that marriage is special and divorce is not the way he would wish for his people and then this sentence no-one would wish to condens condemn someone to stay in a marriage which is beyond redeeming. We are not trying to say that divorce is never the answer. What we are trying to argue for is to try to prevent the cost, the pain, the hurt that is experienced after a divorce by alerting people to the fact that a divorce won't solve all their problems, it will transfer one set of problems for another and our great concern in this report is to go back one step, not just to speak to people who are experiencing hurt, but in the hope that we can say something before it reaches the stage that it had reached when they came to you. Thank you. on the se separate part of the report please Moderator. Erm looking now at page three hundred and fifty seven er paragraph seven three two oh seven three one and seven three two, page three hundred and fifty seven where the report makes the point that er when legal proceedings are entered into they tend to create further barriers and make it m less and less likely that th there can be conciliation between estranged partners erm and paragraph seven three two points out a growing need fo or speaks of a growing need for conciliation. Erm what place erm does the convenor see being made in the legal processes to make available to estranged couples the opportunity for erm voluntary conciliation between the parties? Erm i is there opportunity in our legal system at the moment or are there movements that way? Moderator I think er Mr wants us to go back to the words reconciliation. Conciliation is used in this technical sense when the couple have reached the stage where they've agreed there is no possibility of reconciliation and they are now seeking to make arrangements, for example, about er the children and about money. Er and so you you're question is a good one, what about reconciliation? And our great concern is that people in Scotland should know that the possibility of reconciliation exists. They don't about that when they're in the middle of a dramatic crisis and they've fallen out and perhaps the only thing they know about is how to go about getting a divorce and you see a lawyer and so on. Well we want to say there is hope. As Christians we've discovered about reconciliation in our own lives and we know the need of it in lots of areas in human relationships. Erm in terms of er forcing people to have it, well you can't er somebody has to want to, to look at the possibility so that we would er er let people be aware there are, there are secular organizations like er er in England it's Re er er it's Relate, er marriage guidance, Scotland, still called that in Scotland. The there are parish ministers who are willing to listen and long before it reaches the stage of lawyers and divorce. Does that answer the question? Thank you. Thank you very much. Yes? Eric one one O two. I would like to ask the convenor, with relation to one three on page three hundred and forty concerning the Christian ideal of marriage why not mention is menti is made there of the importance of the family worshipping and praying together. Erm if I knew the pages in the report as well as I try to know my bible I could point you to another place Moderator where er It's a good job I decided to go Oh? not a sign of paper boy. Are we alright for bread? Yeah. whatever it is you wanted bread. These are heavy. Would you rather do without the cushion? No I, without what? A cushion. No I just put, when I put my shoes on I turned it up. the Russians are accepting our beef. Yes. They Very kind. Oh Linda she's having a bit of a Mm. Some indication of what she's up against? Yeah. I can't see Perhaps they're not. The old cock Blackie came and had his breakfast this morning Good. just as it was getting light. There's snooker at three but I think there's a match of rugby of some sort. Oh. Three fifty five, rugby league. The final. There's one tomorrow afternoon. Oh? Oh yes, Sheffield Wednesday and Leeds. Columbo on the other. Oh. Aha what does that mean? Rose has written, hasn't she to tell J erm, erm Gavin the time and everything? Yes. Tell him to be there, yeah. I should think that's the He's so thick. Yes he is . Well of course he's never had to do anything for himself. No. Morning Eileen! Morning darling. Is er Alf available? Morning Alf! Erm Can I ask you to pick up Doreen on Tuesday morning? Erm well u , nine o'clock, no, quarter to nine she pi , she's picked up. That too early for you? Will you? And then don't, you no need take her home you see, because it's only just picking her up on a Tuesday. And then, the following Monday I'd like to talk to you if you can to pick her up and take her home. Can you, reckon you can think about that? Alright. Alright then Okay Alf. Yeah. Just Tuesday morning pick her up. That's it. Yeah. Thanks a lot. Cheers . So that's done. Good! She said she knows it isn't what Ruth said it is, it's something else. I see. Well she knows, at least she wasn't going to erm admit to having had a phone call Oh no! till you No, she wasn't. Just as well we spoke Yeah. to Roe last night. Yeah. Anyway , you alright? The children are er going not having any money, she said well Ga , she did say that Gavin was alright but he hadn't met anybody, hadn't made er any friends yet. And what about Peg? Has she heard? No. No. She said, oh I expect I shall. Well I should have thought she would have said, well I'll ring her. Would you? Oh well that's the human thing to do! I know , but it I wasn't going to say, I was just ha! She said, ooh she said to me, she said I know Barbara she said it's no good talking about it you wouldn't wanna know, she said, you're alright. And then someti , I said something, she said oh God! But I couldn't make out which Richard she was talking whether it was the one up above her or the one above Mrs . Well she chunters on just for the sake of talking! Oh dear! I'd better do that door I think. I think it's terrible the way these people ignore me she said when I made a complaint! About the car this was. Just don't do anything about! They ignore me completely! I think it's terrible an old woman like me! There's more self pity. But she ha , didn't, is she gonna phone up Frank or No. I don't know if she will or not . Dreadful the way everybody ignores her! Extraordinary! If she can find the slightest little thing that sort of effects her in an adverse manner Yeah. you know, the way she doesn't like it then she's up in arms She builds it up. but everyone else can whistle Dixie! And she started to say this morning, oh you're alright! And then she changed her mind I think. You're alright, you something and then she stopped. And I told her once, I said I'm sick to death of hearing you say that every time I come! But she didn't have a lot to say about Roe's conversation? Nope. She'd asked about dad any road, she said, course this is in the afternoon so she didn't then, only this trouble hadn't started then about no money, you see. They Roe said he was alright but lonely. Well, I don't know but really lonely I wo , I wouldn't read that altogether. A nineteen year o And then as soon as he started his courses and he met somebody. A nineteen year old doesn't get lonely. No. You're sure to meet er, get in touch somebody who's doing But he's , he's in this what? Yes , I was gonna say a hospice but that isn't, that isn't right. No, he's got a flat anyway. No he hasn't yet. No, well he's he's found one anyway. But he had to pay them rent. Yeah I know but he can't get in cos he can't Mm. pay the two No. hundred pounds advance to so he's pen still in the penchant or something whatever it is. That's right. Penchant. I don't think we should worry too much about his affair, but, at least er, you must be prepared with, with the to live. That's first.. Anyway I think, still think it would be better to Well it would have er split the the copper stuff and it's not very good. No. And that would have sa , split it altogether. Oh well! Anyway, I think that's far enough, I hope so. They're together. Now you're sitting on it. Have we got posh potatoes things? Well I didn't think that was very nice. What? That mixture that we had. It was very nice! You mean all the mashed up spuds ? Yeah , I put parsnip instead of in I didn't think that was so good. Well erm Young Doctors is on this afternoon. Oh! Well I saw it in the last time it was in here on Central and it wasn't, it didn't come on! Well she looked in the sa , in the Elaine brought a thing Oh! er the, you remember the and all this Yes. there's something there. Elaine reading it. Well I know the the when we had the er I T V, you know, over Christmas it said in there it was on Central but when I turned it on it wasn't at all. Anyway, we'll see. Mm. Do you know what? No. I'm going to have the fire on this afternoon. Yes. Well then, alright. Just thought if I tell you why because I'm cold. That's an obvious. I didn't think it was that . Have you looked to see if your Well I did see it Tuesday so I would have said! Well is that there earlier? Mm? Is that earlier than usual? Yes, it is. Well ? Yes, it's really on at erm but it's music . Oh! Do you want some on here? This is nice! Ha! Well I'm going I expect he'll . Is the water coming to the Well it isn't it in the loo, I think it's i , it's in the tap. No this is another one. It's . Yes Westminster. Oh yes! Special. On the The thing about taxes, yes. Yeah? No. The managing state of . And that could be in that's on at two fifteen it says here. I've just been watching all that Fields, that chap Fields. And he's chairman of . I could be quite sort of interesting. Although I think they . They've invested the that's found along the path. Oh! It's a matter of taste. But I think they've more or less given up the ghost. See poor and all that. Terrible thing! Yeah. Really isn't it? You won't get anything then? No. You won't get Somebody will. It's gone!. Are we gonna have some more to e , drink? Ah? I think . Did you put cheese down on the list? No. I think I'd go to that other counter and buy a block of that. It's better than the er That's what we did before. Yes it was. You ha I suppose I don't have to have to pound do I? No!what you want! Er, can I do anything over there? Yes. Did you? I entered Whacker in the book and Well you have to make a list you see. Oh I see. I put him down as a schoolboy. You know if you want to darling you No I don't. cos I might look through there for a job you see. Oh yes? Is that on or off? On. Oh. Got to find something for it. Now look you should be pleased about that! Yes I am, I'll go and stick them in in a minute. Look at that, I tell you that's cos I There's still a nice fresh smell of There's a lot of rain I wish I could find out why this iron a bell rings in this iron . Doesn't it say on the I haven't found any, I must look for the instructions, I the instructions. It probably I should, well, I should think it would say on them. I should think it's when it gets to the r the required heat or something. I would I would think so. Oh no these didn't go pink. No they haven't have they? So I dunno. It's just that interlock stuff I suppose, it's so sort of Mm. Did the tea towel go pink? I don't know, I'll go and fetch that Oh you you haven't done it, that bit. No I put, put that on the radiator there with his shirt. Just I'm just making sure you don't catch it I know you're very careful. You don't always think though. No. Got to find some blotting paper. No this hasn't gone pink, or the shirt. Oh. It's just the just that thick stuff, yeah. As you say about the interlock. Wouldn't it be easy for er If you talk with your mouth full I can't understand a word you say can I? I wonder what Well it's either or a is it? What a load of rubbish. I think I'll take two in the hopes Three. of getting something I'm to take three Three. There we are. Forever on the floor Whoo! Are you playing cards again? Whoa! But you, I didn't. I thought I was on your right. Oh I put some new ones out. New I'm paying one to see you, see you. Oh. Right that goes underneath. I win then. You win. Ha ha ha. Yeah well I had er jack. Give her the money then. Very good It's gone up to ninety nine P now though. Isn't it terrible? It used to be seventy something. I don't know, I don't It was eighty something the last one and ninety nine that one. Well. There you are. And I don't like provide a little bottles cos little Oh yes. bottles are much more expensive cos you pay for the bottle. What those little fifty ones you mean? Yeah. Yeah. I get two out of those, I had two pairs. Hmm Yeah. dangerous He had an invitation to his party today er when's it for Adam? What? What day is it on? Wednesd Saturday. I'll take a four please. One two Yeah . He went to one a couple of weeks ago, a football party and he really didn't wanna go. three four They just had ten and they had five a side football. Oh well that's good, that's what Jean used to do. Ooh! I've got too many. Oops oops It's organized Yeah. yeah he really enjoyed that. There's too many here. Then they had tea after, they had sausage and chips and stuff afterwards. I took too many. I, I took four and I was supposed to take two . Well have you sorted yourself out a nice hand out No. all his friends from the on Saturday Oh did he? Rachel's I just put, I just put Well what are you going to do? Was that another party as well? Well it was Rachel's birthday on Ah. on Saturday. and she had it in a sort of Oh that's a bit. Alright well I'll see you. erm like community centre Yeah. and they had a disco. Two I've only got an ace, king. That was expensive then? Well didn't work out too bad, she rented the hall, I think it was about twenty pound and then she had to pay the D J, I don't know how much that was, and then she was gonna do her own food so Yeah, Well aren't you going to I suppose it was and we had to tidy it all up afterwards Suppose it's only right. Well yes. We had to sweep all the floor and tidy everywhere. Mm. We had to do all the food, you know all there Oh yes. table you know. And wash it all up Whoo! you know, just put it on a big table and just left it, we didn't have them sitting down No, she had thirty. Well Jean used to Yeah Yeah Yes but all I've got is, look I think they eat more if they can just help themselves a bit at a time when they want it. Oh It's there innit and they can If you've got I'll raise it Alright, see you. And you don't need do you? No. Oh she's not very well, Andrea. having problems today cos she's got the two girls there from school and they're supposed to go to the school, the doctor, for an examination but whether she realized that I don't know. Is the doctor coming in to her? He did come to her last Friday, he gave her something for her mouth, you know her Can I have three Yeah. I think I'll just have one. I think Andrea said that you know she said all her tongue was all black. Yeah that wh when I, harvest festival I think it was and I Ah! Then she got again. Yeah. Whoo! Oh yes you have. Ooh two aces I think. Nan used to gargle didn't she? Aces and nines, gosh! Yeah. With some horrible thing like bicarb bicarbonate of soda. Bicarbonate of soda. Yeah. Cos I won it! Bicarbonate of soda. Yeah. to gargle with . Yeah well it, salt's the best thing. Salt. Yeah. Now give me your cards. Well do doctor told me Epsom, the finest thing in the world is salt, you can't beat it. I'm winning! Salt and water. Mm nan used to gargle every day, and Steve Yeah. if she had the first sign of anything. Oh no way! Yeah. I want three please. Well the, the doctor saw her surgery and I said Three please. Yes I am. Yeah. and had this internal investigation. Oh ! I wish I had two now. Yeah well they can but up to the doctors you know, really isn't it? Can I have ? No Is that turned on Pardon? Is that turned on? Yes. Can I ? You taping it? Erm Yeah. They want different accents, you know, different sort of yes n er you've raised it? Oh no I'm not going to play Oh no I'll see you, see you for one then. Mm? What did you say, you want different like Gloucestershire and It's some research they're doing on vocabulary I win, I've got two eights. No you must have it's gotta go two, three, four, five, six, right the way through. All you've got there is a pair of twos. Oh oh. Ooh. Your money. And they're just er going to random houses? Your deal. Yes, and asking people, you know, if they would take part. They give you something for that cos I m the B B C asked me once to, they knocked the door and said would I make a note of all the programmes for one week and just put my opinion, it was just four different, you know, Yeah? what I view, tick it. And I said yes okay when she came to pick it up she gave me ten pound in an envelope and she said this, this is for your trouble. Right there. You're dealing. I'll take three. So there you are you see, I didn't expect to get anything But I had a prize from and it was the most awful book a paperback book which obviously they couldn't get rid of. it was, ten pound, she just gave me the envelope and, it was a printed Oh no. Oh yeah! envelope, you know Yeah. and there was a ten pound note in it. Alright, I'll back one. One with that and I'll pay you, I mean And ano another one. I'm gonna put, pay that to see you. Alright, I've two pairs. Fives and sixes. I, ooh! Why what've you got? Two kings and an, an ace. No oh I've got two pairs, beats that. Think it was some margarine or All they got was the , you know, It was just interesting to do and, you know, the questions they asked What flavour are these mam? Er that one's toffee that one you've got in your right hand. This one? Yeah. I think that's toffee. Is it, or is it coffee? You like both of them though don't you? You like coffee and toffee. Mm Are you playing? Yeah. It's standing up on end You been to bed Ooh! Are you allowed a pair and a three? lying on it. Probably yeah. Are you allowed a pair and a three? A pair and a three? Yeah, a pair and a three. No you can't, a run is all cards. You want three? I was trying to get rid of some rubbish this morning all garden stuff, you know the garden. Yeah. They took, they left two I want three. and why he didn't put them on the pile Whoo! and they come round and they bring them all out to the front Yeah. then they go And leave them on the front. that's right, and I thought well while the the pile's there they won't know whose they are I'll just . Oh right. Two. Hey you didn't put it in. You should Yes I did! No, you To see me? Yeah. Ooh it was the leaves in one and you know how wet they are? Two jacks and two nines. Yeah. Beat me. wet aren't they I wonder why. Your deal. I'm leaving my two in. They get paid enough goodness knows. Don't know whether you used to, when years ago, leave something under the dustbin. Did you used to put something under the dustbin, she always used to do that. A shilling there or something, used to leave it on the top of the dustbin when she Yeah. put the dustbin out. Fifteen two, fifteen four, fifteen six, fifteen eight Aha! ever such a well well-paid job isn't it? Well it is, they're queuing up to get I want three. I want four please. Yeah they have waiting lists don't they? Of people wanting to be dustmen. Yeah A lot of the students have applied too, you know they It's not a dirty job now is it? No Not like it used to be. no they just pick up bags, that's all. Throw it in the cart and that's it. Yeah. Oh sugar! I'm in. One I'm gonna Oh well I'll But I've beat you anyway, I've got queens and eights. Yeah. Now I tell you what, you see this where we can be careful in packing er Oh we forgot to get a chair out today. It's alright What's this one? I think that might be coffee. Yeah, coffee. That's sort of a crunchy I think, a crickl crackly thing. You're doing well today aren't you? I might try it. If I don't like it What, if you don't like it I have to eat it do I ? You can have it, it's Yeah but it's coffee cream. Ah. Thanks . Oh look at what he gives me, all broken, squashed sweet . Thank you. Ah now It's lucky I like coffee. ah dealer takes one I take two. ooh, lost it. I'm gonna pack in. Well I should've won anyway because I've got sixes and fives. No look in there, look what I had. No, they're not much good. You had the er I'm left in, you've got to, no it's your turn. Would you like your drink Adam? Yes please. Three, I had three. Yes I'll take two, oh no wait a minute, wait a minute yes I'll take two please. One two, and I take three, one, two, three. I'd better have a full . Ooh! Whoo ! Shh! Look at that! See he's got, he's already changed his. Oh that's alright then. Alright then? Now I'm two, I'm in for two. I'm, there we are I'm in for I'm in for another two. I'm in for You're supposed to hold them Wait a minute, wait a minute. Alright I've got two again. And I'll pay you to see you. Ah! Ace, king nine, eight, three. Oh a flush. A flush. Well that's not bad. But look at that, your grandpa wins the money! Yeah! You're getting good at this now Three Don't be so loud. Three My deal I think. What about putting some money in? He's like this with my dad, he laughs so loud, Adam does, but only with dad and with you. When he's with my dad,last night my dad's, they were playing a game, she said you should've heard him, she said laughing all, mum loves to hear him happy. So I say to him oh Adam shush, she says oh leave him alone, let him enjoy himself. Doesn't he, granddad makes you laugh? Two twos. Dealer takes Cos dad keeps saying two. when they play cards he keeps saying And what did you want? things, little sayings. Two I take two. Doesn't he Adam? Granddad make you laugh? All I've got is an eight high. Heard any more about the shop Jane? No. Ooh what a shame! Look at that! Ooh! I'm I hope it doesn't all fall through. I'm two no winner. Looks like it Oh well I'll take it. No, you but er we play again this time. heard anything from then. They all said they were waiting on the bank. They were what? They er they, they said they were waiting on the bank to confirm the money. Did they? Yes. But that's all she sa she said that's all I can get out of the solicitor he just said that they're waiting, as soon as they hear from the bank Yeah. so I don't know. just go now, getting on my, right on my nerves. Oh, never mind. Oh ah! Can I take one? Course you can. I'll take two. Ah! Are you allowed three queens? Of course you can. What's that like? Three queens is good. Very good. Well I'm gonna raise it then. He's just told you what it is . . You can only raise it two you can't raise it by more than the, what it is in the pot. Two. And, and Two and I'll see you. Alright. I've got three queens and two aces, got full house. That's a very very good house Ooh that's good. a very good gosh. Very good. I got a full house mum . Two in. Well done. Oh mum ooh wah! Change two please Oh thank thank you. two please Can I have two? Oh al alright you ca I'm taking three. Thanks. Wait a minute, those are mine. You want two? Wah! Can I raise it? not yet, not yet, not yet, not yet. Right. Let's see what we've got here. Ooh ooh ooh ooh . Can I raise it? Shall I sit down? Yes. Yes, Two please. Two? I'll see you. Alright. Three fives How? I've got two I got these trousers Adam, shush, from a little shop by where I, I live Take the money then. just a little shop they were five pound ninety five and I've been paying seventeen pounds and would you believe they're made in England? They're not brilliant quality but they're alright. good. Oh they're good, they're they, they feel good. And they've got pockets in the back and They feel good. Well I mean to say as long as they last him. Well that's it. I said I'll ha take one pair and er the lady's called Irene, she's had the shop for years and years mum always gets and I got those stockings for you Yeah. from there. And I said well if they fit him I'll have them. Oh sugar. Five pound ninety five so I got him Three twos. another pair and they fit him fine, lovely. Yeah. Take three. Well seventeen pounds, it's a bit of difference isn't it? Well I mean they won't last any erm Any less. any less than, the others wouldn't last any longer. No. Well they only I shouldn't think. lasted about a month, you know, the pair if you I'm paying one to see you. And maybe it'll last longer. Well you didn't put any in to the middle. His dad said I'm paying one to see you. he always said Well put er alright I've got a pair of queens. said you wouldn't believe they were made in England when you look at the Oh I beat you then. you'd think they'd be in Hong Kong or somewhere. Yeah. Oh no I win. I mean Trutex aren't made in England now. They're made in Hong Kong or somewhere like that. Ha ha hee hee Hee hee. And she's making something on that as well isn't she? Well I imagine she doesn't sell them at a loss. Yeah erm but she doesn't put much on though. I don't think. Your deal. It's just a little shop, she's been there years, she must have been there thirty years at least. I would have thought she'd probably made a mistake somewhere along the line. Cos I say she's been there thirty years so she must do alright, everybody knows her and everybody goes in. What about putting er something in the middle then? Are you dealing? No it's you! Oh! Sit on that's it. Absolute rubbish! That's all I've got. What do you wanna do? I think I'll have a four, I'll just take four. I'll take that. Ho how many? Four. Four. And I'm taking four, so we've both got aces I think. Yeah. And I'm gonna raise it. Wait a minute. Ah. Oh are you, you're e you're raising, I'm out. Oh I had a pair of aces! Yes I know, well I I've got a pair of eights and I knew Why did you know I had a pair of aces? Well because I, if you keep one you can bet that the person's sitting on an ace hoping to get another. Sit up a bit. Sit up. Come here. What did you You sit there. Sit there,my legs, you're squashing me, sit on a corner bit. And why Oh . Well how come you changed four? Your deal. How come you changed four? Pardon? Ho why did you change four then? I kept an ace but I only got a pair of eights with it which was no good. You should have So I got out. Oh no. Can I have three. Does he play this with grandpa? No, they were playing, what were How many do you want? you playing last night? How many do you want? Er Adam two please. what were you playing last night, forgotten what it was called, it begins with B. Er berserk. Berserk he was playing last night. Berserk? Bezique? Yeah bezique. Bezique yeah. Bezique. Right I want two. I'm in for two. Hold your cards up. I don't know how you play that. I probably would if you showed me two. Can I Dad's got a card game book and they play all these One, two three, three queens. Oh you beat me. Well two er when you put, when you put I could've done with that! There you are. That's look what happens if you get four of one thing? Oh you win. And in a big way. What about against a full house? Well you've had a full house, that was good. Ooh if you have that beats a full house. What about a flush? Does that beat a full house? Well that's no, no, no a full house beats a flush. always put the cards underneath, that's it. Your deal. No what about putting something in the middle then? You going for two this time? Ooh ooh ooh None please. I'll take one. You alright? I take one. Good isn't he? Oh alright, I don't care. I beat you. Oh I Why? Cos I'm not, I've got rubbish. I've got a full house. I wanted a flush you see I've got a full house. and ooh ooh a four against that. Anyway I'd of beat you anyway. Yes, your deal now. No that was good. You thought got a flush didn't you? I did I thought No, twice he's had it. Really? To be dealt a full house is extraordinary. Well yeah. The secret is packing them, you know, I And you can sometimes tell what's coming yes. Coming up, if you've got a good memory, yeah. Two threes. you have to. Yeah Can I take one? Yes. Well I have three first. Jack. Aha. Mum and dad used to play a lot of bridge Packing, I'm packing. and you have to be able to remember the cards that have gone. a very good memory. Yeah Here you are. Good game, I quite like it. One, two three. And nothing with it. Oh nearly. One, two three, nothing with it. Well put your money up. Well don't ask me. Mum please may I Please may I have Well ask grandpa, he knows Yes you can go and get it. I'll get it. I can't hear you see from under here. I'll have three. You'll have three? I'll take two. One two three, one Tt ooh. two. Urgh. Oh mine are no good. Oh I got a Oh well it's I've got a . I've got a pair of aces. That, I bet that shocked you. Well now, yes it did, now that's it, now cra er that's right, crack them Your deal. them like that. Well you win, take two and then I take two in. No it's your deal, I dealt those. This is a pretty looking lot. Why? Take two I know what you've got. I know what you've got . Couldn't find the door, I didn't, didn't put the light on, I couldn't find the handle on the door . I know what you've got cos I I've got the same What's that? Two sixes and two Oh no no don't you, don't Mustn't show. you mustn't show me. I want two. I want two. Two. One two and I want one. Those are no good. But I'll still, I'm for two. Well I'm gonna raise it to Well I'm with you for four. What, are you seeing me? Well you've only got You have to ask. you've only got two pairs. I've got three queens. You ! You actor! Why did you do that? You put these on the bottom Adam. These are be much better cards these, they don't stick together do they? They're better than the last week's, yes we had trouble with them. Put them together. a real hand and I gave you about thirty chances, they all stuck together. Are the dinners still as good at school or ? Yes, he still likes them don't you? Mm. What did you have today? Beans Ro heard from Gavin today, spoke to him in Florence Oh is he enjoying himself? and everything's going fine. Oh good. Yeah, yeah. They'd had a a lot of trouble er difficulty in getting hold of him and but they finally got him today and Three please. He's alright. You're dealing. I want two. Ben's in South Africa isn't he? Mm? Did Ben go to South Africa? Ben did but Gavin's in Italy in Florence. Italy, oh yes. Yes. Have you heard, has she heard from Ben, have they heard from Ben? Wah Well he's phoned his parents, we haven't heard from him yet. No. He's supposed to write to his grandpa every month but so far we haven't I might have I'll have two. I'll go with you, I might Are you gonna change any of them? I dunno Yes we've changed. Two, and I'll no I won't I'll go two. You gonna see me? Yeah, yeah. Two pairs? Yeah. Hard luck! Three fives. That's the three fives you had just now. Yeah, it's gone through again hasn't it? if they're packed properly then they come out again. Always turn the cards up like that when you I don't like doing that. Shuffle then cos we're gonna get the same again. No don't shuffle them. You mustn't shuffle, never. Don't shuffle. No. You never shuffle for poker. This is, things are looking good here. Things are looking good. It's not long now Not yet. I've not got a very good hand. put those cards What about putting some in the middle? What you doing? Can I have three? Mm mm I'm gonna take one. Three? A very forlorn chance this. I enjoyed that cup of tea, do you want some more? There might be a stewed bit in Yes the bottom. You want, do you want three? Oh let me finish that I've only got two. You don't mind it stewed do you? Can I have one more? Not too much. I need one more. Wah! I pack. Why? Cos I've got rubbish. Oh and I've got a Oh! three twos. Yes you win that. Must put that on the list. One stewed cup. Oh thank you. I hate it when it's stewed do you ? Can I have four please. You're dealing. Oh. I want three please. One, two, three Feels a bit warm in here. It is warm though isn't it? That wasn't this morning I don't think. No it's gone Gonna be a frost tonight though, Is there? wasn't it? Snowed in the morning then turned to that awful rain. Yeah, not settling snow though. And a pair of sixes. Oh no Full house aces. Well. Whose is that, grandpa's? Yeah. Oh my word. I next. Whose erm Well you had one just now. He's had two. Yeah. Come on, don't be shy. What have you got? Hmm. Keeping a few cards up your sleeve. your deal isn't it? No yours. Mum had a perm this morning. Did she? She moaned all the time, she hates having her hair cut. She was going rough when I pull her and oh! She's terrible tender-headed. Is she? Well nobody else moans so much. Oh. How many do you want? One. my witness do I hurt you and they all said no. Well it's you mother. I'll take four. She gets a bit of erm rheumatism in her head. Four? Oh. One and two and Oh it's only an ace. But I don't think anybody likes having their hair permed glad when it's done. Yeah. You've got a pair of aces. Oh just missed them. Just missed them. Why? I kept a five because I remembered I had three fives earlier on. Yeah. And I just got one of them. I can't stand it when my hair's a mess. No That is a pair,a pair, so I lose. What did you get? She just doesn't like she had it set on Saturday, it looked alright and by the end of Saturday it'll look terrible. Mm. What sort of party has he got on Saturday? I don't know I haven't looked at the invitation, he just told me when he came home from school he'd got a party. Oh. I don't know, what sort of party is it Adam? I don't know. Have you read the invitation? What about putting two in then? ? I don't know. Oh. You must have a look then Ooh! Two please. I want one. Another present. No Aha. Ah! In for two. A lot of them seem to have the whole class Raise it two. See you. having to see you. What have you got? Oh three kings, oh! I've got two pairs. I remember that. I remember that. Look what I got mum. You're getting better. You're improving. I know. I, I and you could've done with a queen. so nice. Do you remember the weather was absolutely dreadful. It rained all day and they played out in the mud and the parents weren't very pleased with me . It's your deal. No I think it was my deal They all enjoyed themselves I can assure you. I bet they did, yeah. Two in. You don't know what to do when they get older do you? No. Well that's, that, that football was the best thing of course. Yeah. Either that or a swimming party or swimming party Yeah. Yeah. Cos that was a birthday wasn't it? One please. That is a load of rubbish. Yes. tend to be like, you don't watch your own when you've got other people's to watch One, two, three No. cos you're more worried about theirs four than you are your own aren't you? Whoo! Yeah. And then I have one. That's it. That's the rubbish tip. Yeah that football sounds quite a good idea I'm gonna put, I'm, can I raise it? Yeah. he really enjoyed that. I'll raise it two. Raising it two. Ah well I can't, I, I haven't got anything. I've gotta pack cos I've nothing. Nothing at all. Tens and twos Yeah. Turn the pack over so we can pack properly. Cos you see if you put your ace down, ace of clubs right on the top and I put the rest of the clubs, put it down You see if I now pack those clubs like that you've got an ace of clubs, yeah, so sometimes when there's a deal coming off you might draw That's your money. There's some Vozene up there I know Head and Shoulders and Yeah. Whoo whoo Can I have three please? Can I have three. Three please. Well it's been there a long time. One, two cream for dry skin. three and I'm having three, one, two try that tonight. One four ah! Have you got a good hand? Cos I think I remember this. Pardon? I think I remember this. You've got a good hand. I've got what? You've got a very good hand. Mm yeah not very good. You must've put two in. I paid those to see you. Oh have you? I've got fives and sixes, two pairs. Ooh ooh What've you got then? Aces and nothing. Just aces? Come to mama. Come on now, last hand. Every Is it then? Yeah this is a big one. This is the big deal. Right? And I've got used to my hair now. better Jane. You like it better? Yeah mum likes it better. yes I do. Yes I do. Yeah. It takes a little getting used to. It does yes, I'm not used to having short hair. No. I'm gonna have the underneath permed tomorrow, I shall get that done. Mum said it makes me look younger. Yes it does. Oh yes it's much nicer. No this is no good I'll have three Does you good to have a change doesn't it? Yes. It seems funny having it going out at the sides cos I always had it I'll have three. going back, you know, rather than out. One, two Last hand this is alright? Oi oi oi oi ah ha ha alright then! Right let's get going. That's right. Let's get going. You can't raise it by the way. Have to do that. This is kings and fives. Queens and fours, I win! Da! Adam what do you say? Thank you. How much have you got now? Let's put them back in there. I've saved up twenty dollars in Twenty dollars? Yeah. There's a dollar. There's two dollars three dollars What have we got to get on the way home? Coal and wood. That's right. I said to remind me. What's he got to get Jane? Coal for the fire. And that's seventeen dollars. We can't have the coalman yet cos we haven't got the coal house cleared out Oh right. it's all full of paint and everything. So we've got nowhere to put it Well thank you for the game. Say thank you. Ha next week! Next week I'll beat you. It was that final little hand that beat me. It was too. Kings and fives. queens and fives. But you had a cou you had a couple of er Full houses. full houses. Yes you did. Which was good. Mum can I have one more biscuit? No you can't, no. Oh yes I can. No. Your dinner'll be ready when we get home. I know. No you're not having any more. Come on, out you go. Where's your coat you put on the chair? He didn't bring one. Oh That's my coat yeah. Say goodbye, thank you. Good bye. Bye bye. Bye. See you next week. How long has he lived in Harlow? Thirty two years. We came here on the ninth of June nineteen fifty. What did you why did you move to Harlow? Well my husband had a job here we moved from Highbury in in London because his firm moved from Highbury in London to here and erm got so we had to move with my husband because of his job, you see? And er but my husband was down here er a good year before we moved down here because there wasn't accommodation available for us to move with i him you see? So erm he travelled backwards and forwards for a year prior to us coming to live here permanently. What did you think of it when you first moved here? Well it really was so different from a built up place but er um, when, but the day that we came in it was mm, pouring with rain everywhere was muddy and er of course,i i there were only erm one part of this town this area, rather that had been occupied because all the other parts were all fields. There was just the erm Broomfield Staffield Tanys Dell erm Glebelands and that was the all the area that was built up when we came here. Our children had to go to Chingford to school. My daughter was of er grammar school erm tuition but we couldn't put her into anywhere here because there were no schools available Loughton wouldn't take her neither would er, Bishop's Stortford because they were the only two grammar schools available here and erm my dau , other daughter with many other children er, well all the, children of the residency in Tanys Dell and the Glebelands had to travel to Chingford every day to school. Then the infant school the first class of the infants we had in a hut on Netteswell Road and then we went, they came from that hut there to the servant's quarters of Mark Hall. The o , the Mark Hall only Mark Hall wasn't there because it had been previously burnt down. So that was our first se good school, as you may say then and then within about four years they built Tanys Dell and erm we just you know, we formed a quite a a a very good community here because we were all people from different areas we all had the same problems trying to re-adjust in a new place and I think then, we had more relationship with, with our neighbours than people are having today. Because Yeah. yo you know if we had problems we'd each talk to them and we had of course, we had, we formed a resident association and we took our problems to the resident's association and and we wo , you know, if we had problems which could be ironed out the man , general manager of the development corporation, Mr would come and listen to our complaints and we seemed, you know, we we got along very very well really for such a small place with nothing because the only shopping facilities were in the old town or we had to go to Epping or Bishop's Stortford you see? Mm. How did the people in the old town feel? They resented us in the beginning but I think as the years have gone by and they have seen the facilities that a new town has brought to their advantage I think they're more acceptable now, but they did resent us in the beginning. Well I think everybody would, that had had their privacy erupted like they had been because they'd been a small community for well through the years you see and for strangers to come in, I think it applies in every place that you go to, new places, you know that are built up after it just being a little country village people do resent you but I think now that they, they are really erm accepting us for the fact that we have brought things that they would never have had had the new town not been er sta , you know started here. So have you always lived in this house? Yes. I came down when my husband was working on the factory site then as I say, prior to us coming to live here this was hadn't been even built so we've seen it grow from the floor to what it is today, you know? I it really was an adventure it was really was an adventure. What business was your husband in then? He was an engineer and erm he he was he made co , he worked on conveyers and things and then he changed his occupation became a civil servant and he worked at the Admiralty down on Templefields until it closed about ten years, cos my husband has been retired about five years now. Er How do you feel about Harlow now? I think it's a wonderful place! And I think the council are trying their utmost to make facilities for all ages. I mean, when we came here, as I say, we had nothing, our children, if they wanted erm any entertainment we had to make our own entertainment, which we did. My son started a youth club in one of the common rooms and we as residents we got together we really enjoyed ourselves in our way, you know? But er I think,people that have got so much now feel they haven't got enough. Mm. They want more! But they've got to realise that Rome wasn't built in a day ! And I mean, through the years which this town is about thirty four years old? That's including Chippingfield if you had seen it as we saw it when we came here you would recognise how much work has gone into building the town because I was on the the council then I was asked if I would stand for the council which was then only a parish council there was no urban district council that wasn't formed for four or five years afterwards and of course, we had to fight for lights everything that, er that we needed we had to fight for because there was no lighting on Netteswell Road where our children were going to school, and there were little ones. We had to fight for parks swimming pools everything that we wanted, we had to fight for! But people now are coming in and they're expecting everything to be here. They don't realise that it has taken many years to bring the town up to the standard it is now. And, very hard working people have had to do the fighting for what we have got! Did you have erm, any special job on the council? Well erm I had different kinds of positions. I was er Chairman of Public Health and various chim , I was Chairman of the Road Safety, which I was very interested in I was very road safety conscious and we each were given a job which we tried to do the best we could with and then we well, whatever we were asked to do we began to make a good town, you know? This is what we, we were aiming for we were trying to make a town for the people. And for, our children when they grow up cos I had three children nearly every one that had come into the town had little ones so you see we were trying to build a town for our children to benefit which I don't know whether you think that it's a town worth living in but I think that we have done very well and it's a town that is caring for such as the elderly they really do care! Cos, lots of towns and even good towns that yo you would of thought that are better off than Harlow would have been would have been don't do half as much for the pensioners as Harlow does. I think they are very caring! If o , people would only appreciate the fact that you can't have everything, you just can't have everything! I mean, schools the only thing I was, I'd been governor of a a school for thirty years that was used to depress me with the fact that we couldn't get for our schools the things that we needed because to me and to all the people in Harlow who have children are concerned that we are being stopped so much money on education which is the most vital thing in our children's lives! Without education what kind of a country are we going to have? It's so important! So important! So do you use the Leah Manning? Dame Leah Manning was my very best friend! She came to me one day and asked me if I would stand for the council, which I did. I have her book here. She ro did an autobiography of a education and she was the most wonderful person that you would ever wish to meet! She fought for the working class she fought for education she fought for everything to benefit the community she was a wonderful person! She really was! Do you think that erm any of the town's been badly designed for the old people? Well I don't se I don't think that it has been badly designed for the old people, I think the object of building the town as it has been built is to integrate the erm the old people with the young, perhaps the young people resent that but I think we have got to have a mixed community in as much as we have got to be aware that old people need attention in as much as they need companionship and if they are not integrated with the community they are going to be I really se , just left out on their own which in lots of cases there are very, very many lonely people, old people but if they are put within the community I think the community will look after them, in as much as giving them companionship whether the people, some people resent it or not, I don't know, but I do think that they should not be segregated. When you were a councillor was there anything so , erm that you did definite to help the old people? Well, there weren't so many old people then when we came here we were classed as one of the oldest people because er they were all very young people and you were talking about Dame Leah Manning and she came to me one day and she said we're going to have a problem on the town because it's a very young town. She said, what do you think of us starting a family planning clinic? Because we had people coming into the town that had come out of rooms one and two rooms in Har , in wherever they came from to Harlow and there were so many things that they required for their home that they couldn't afford to have big families and pay their way. So, we opened a family planning clinic at Nuffield House with all volunteer workers, nobody was paid! The doctors gave their services, the nurses gave their services, all the lay workers give their services and from one clinic we went to seven clinics in a week! And I was in charge of the clinics. Mm. Erm, how did you get involved with the Barnardos then? Well one day, I had a knock at the door and it was a Mr from Stepney Causeway that is the headquarters of Barnardos. Erm, I mean headquarters as from adminis , the administrative erm part of it I don't know whether you saw the Barnardos This is Your Life lady Yeah, I know. last night? Mm. Well, Barkingside was a big home they also have one out at Ware they also had one at Upshire but the Upshire one were for disabled children. So this gentleman came and he was i , said would I be prepared to run a fete in aid of Doctor Barnardos Home? Well at that particular time I was already on the council, I was doing family planning which took up an awful lot of my time. So he said it wouldn't involve much, but to run a fete does involve a lot of work. Mm. So we talked and I said well we would think about it and we would let him know so we collected all the friends that we thought would like to help which were many people were very good to help! And the following visit he made here he brought with him Miss Virginia she was one of the personnel at Stepney Causeway she was the Miss Virginia , the niece of the line and she came and she said that she would help in erm doing some organisation and and giving us some insight as to what we had to do, because we had never run a fete in all our lives! So we got everyone together here the bank manager, was Mr then, Barclays Bank we got two or three of the industrialists all of the members that were prepared to help and we started from there. We wrote to oh I don't know how many stars for articles that they wish to give so that we could raise money by them. The catholic school which was the only school available then to us fo with the field that was we which we needed. The Sister Constance, who was the then the principal sister there she let us have the field so we got entertainment laid on we invited a celebrity, I think our first celebrity was erm I think it was Lord and Lady and then each time we had a different one, we had entertainment the whole time we started, about half past two and then we had entertainment until six then we had an interval then we had entertainment till twelve o'clock I even took my piano down onto the field so that we could have music. We raised quite a good sum for the first time and that went to the Barnardos home. Then the following one we had erm Lord and Lady they came as guests of ours. Then we did another one and Tommy Cooper came! And we've, each time we had someone of importance to bring in the people. Now, Tommy Cooper he never charged us one penny! All we had to do was to pay the expense of the helicopter that brought him in because at that time he was appearing at the Prince of Wales and it was a matter of him fitting his time in with his performances, you see? Which we did. We brought him here ou , he changed his clothes from his own suit into the pied piper and erm then we got him back to the Prince of Wales Theatre. Well the money that we raised from there and also from another one was about three thousand nearly four thousand three thousand something and we presented er Tommy Cooper with the cheque on the Prince, the stage of the Prince of Wales Theatre, but that cheque was to buy a special ambulance for the children of Upshire, which is the home of the disabled and this special coach had erm places where you could wheel the children into the coach in their chairs with the clamps and those children that could be taken out of their chairs and put on seats put and had their belts put around them and that was the only way that these children were able to get out! Then on our next project we raised money for the swimming pool that they required. Then, for the following one we bought the first meals on wheels van so that with all the money that we've collected for Harlow day we bought something out of the money. And we really had a wonderful time doing it! We took the children, when we had the bus we took the children to Southend that was the first time they had all been out together and the owner of the Kersal and the person responsible on the council for the erm maintaining of of Southend, such as the Chairman, they put the Kersal at our disposal! And before the children left they were given a carrier bag with all sorts of things that you could think of and to see the delight on those little children's faces! It was worth all the hard work that we had put into it because it got that we used to use the town park towards the latter part of Barnardos day and all the men that we had gathered together used to have to erect every piece of fence to enclose like it is now, the park, is enclosed now with with fencing the men that were helping us did that all voluntarily! And mis the the constructors here they loaned us different equipment and we worked from Monday to Friday getting the things ready we worked all day Saturday doing the show, and we worked all day Sunday clearing the field! It was very hard work but it was worth it. When did Barnardos day become the town show? I can't remember erm they took I just can't remember when they took over from us. But erm I don't think that the town show perhaps I was I'm prejudiced to the fact that, that we'll be losing money rather than making it but it wasn't anything like we put on for entertainment! Nothing at all! They put it on a bigger scale but the entertainment far below ours! I may be bragging but it er we had a wonderful day! We had the American band, we had the horse guards from London we brought them all up on the train, the horses and the guards and we had wonderful times! What other entertainment was there in Harlow at the time? Well not very much unless you made it yourself, you know, if you were, the factories used to have their own erm dances and the Embers, it used to be the Embers then, that's the place in the Stow, they had danci , yes, they had dancing there and they put on competitions for different things and my son, with lots of others er, did erm a rock and roll thing which needed thirty six hours. And we made our own entertainment that is the thing about it, you know? There wasn't much laid on for you because er I think with new people you've gotta get them into the spirit of doing something otherwise you sit here, all sitting down doing nothing! This is how we felt. And we had so many good people in the beginning, as I say, that really wanted to help for to make entertainment, you know? Erm do you take part in any of the entertainments now? Not now no. I resigned from the family planning about seven years ago when my husband retired, as I say because he used to help me very much and when he retired and my children had all married I felt it was time that I should retire too. I'd done twenty years in the family planning and I'd done twelve years on the council and I'd done thirty years as school governor. So now I'm sitting back doing nothing! Oh is, looking back, do you think that Harlow's been a successful project? I think so. Oh. I think so. But, you see the thing about it is we have got a take towns for what we make of them you see we could just all sit back, people say they're bored! There's nothing to do! But if you look around there is so much to do! And there's so much voluntary work to be done if people have got spare time to go and help but, I don't know whether it's the sign of the times that people only want to do jobs for monetary gain. That maybe the idea, but there are so many things to be done by voluntary workers if people would only say well I've got half an hour an hour it could be so much of an advantage to whoever they're giving their services to because we're having to cut costs on this and costs on that an hour or two given voluntary would cover those jobs that we can't get the money to pay for. Has your view of Harlow changed over the years? My view of Harlow? Yeah. It hasn't changed, no because we er haven't gone back we are going forward all the time. I mean, we've had the facilities as we have now in the town centre I mean, it has improved this town immensely! We're not only catering for Harlow people we are catering for people outside which is bringing money into Harlow helping the finance of Harlow and I think we are just progressing with the times. We're not going back. If we had more money to spend I'm sure there would be far more things that the councils would like to do but without money you can't do it! And things are very expensive to do. When we say and we've often said it, well we could do with this, we could do with that like we used to say , we wanted the swimming pool well that cost an awful lot of money! To do the town park that cost an awful lot of money! People think oh, you can do this, you can do that! We could do a lot of things but without the finance you just can't do it! Don't think I've got any Aha. more, can't think of any more questions. Is there anything you'd like to tell us? Well the only thing is that I hope that the next generation that is coming along now will appreciate what has been done for their generation because it took a long time for us to get what we wanted for our children and now with our grandchildren are coming along I hope the town will improve with their growth. As the town has grown with our children. And, if people would appreciate it and keep it as it should be cos to me, I think there's a lot of error in people neglecting their places. Which is detrimental to the town and we are trying to keep this town as we think it ought to be kept. Do your children still live in Harlow? Yes not all of them. I have erm one daughter living here and a son living here but my eldest daughter is in the United States and my granddaughter is just finishing her last year of law. So what just i , well my eldest daughter away and she's been away this month twenty six years. That's a long time innit? It is a long time. Yeah. Seems like a life time ! Have you ever been over to see her? Yes we were there last year because my granddaughter got married. We go quite frequent, my daughter's you know Mm. wants us to go over as often as we can and we try and and often as we can. The only thing about it it's not very inexpensive to go there it's not just like going going on a bus and but erm my daughter's very generous and seeing that we we get to her and we spend about three months with her. Cos you can't go and say well I'm only going for a couple of weeks! Yeah. Stay for the weekend ! Yeah ! We would like we would like to go every week you know Yeah. but erm she phones us and you know oh I had a car , erm letter from her yesterday with er photographs and things like that. Mm. And she was saying how well my granddaughter was getting along in the University. She has just this last year to go and er we hope for her sake everything goes well for her because she's brilliant, and as you see I have to fly the flag for her because she's Yeah. she's so Americanized you see? But erm we have to fly the flag! But as I say what do you feel as as students do you feel that you have the facilities here that could be improved on or or Well are you satisfied with what you have? I think that wha what we've got Well is very good! Yeah. I just can't believe that that just things that are ha , going to be happening Yeah exactly! Out of the sixth from the sixth form that you're Yeah, that's right. going to Yes, we've tri The school have we been trying to fight that but Yeah. the ones above us are stronger than we are, as I say, finance comes into it again you see? Mm. And the thing about it is such as erm well not only Tanys Dell that biggest part of school is here the population has decreased so much in the last ten years that we having now to close schools Mm. where we were trying desperately to have schools because we had no schools when we first came here as I say. But now they are closing them we've got so many good teachers out of work where ten years ago we were fighting to get good teachers and smaller classes but now you see, we've got smaller classes Yeah. but we haven't got the children to engage the teachers, you see? Mm. What do you think about the comprehensive schooling? Well I think it's good. yeah, I think it's good! We've never known anything different you see. You haven't? No. You haven't known anything different? Well as I say, my daughter was a grammar school tea , er pupil but erm my so , grandsons I have one now at he'll be twenty two this year, went to Burnt Mill I have another grandson in Burnt Mill Yeah. I have a granddaughter now going up to Burnt Mill and I think myself, they couldn't have done any better in the grammar school. Yeah. Yeah. Well Yeah. I mean, my sister's school they have right from the start and er they don't I don't think you get a wide enough circle of friends really. Yeah. Instead just Like, stick to your own type. And your social assets just develop so much better at a comprehensive. Too much segregation Yeah. Yeah. at school? Yes, well this is, this is what the intention of the comprehensive school was in the beginning was to ha , let every child have the same opportunity which I'm sure they're getting in the comprehensive school. People do say that erm there are far too many pupils but if you've got the stuff and the accommodation, which our school provide they're not overcrowded. If the if they're provided with the right kind of teacher then I think the pupil will be given that opportunity if it's, the potential is there to bring it out, but you some of the children don't want to learn well that's not the fault of the school! No. That's the the child themselves you see? I mean if you don't, think, oh well I'd I don't want to be well it's not the teachers fault cos you don't get on! But the thing about it is the school gets the bad name! Yeah. You see? It isn't the child, they say oh oh oh! They're not doing this or that but in lots of cases, and I've known of lots of cases where children just don't want to know! Mm. You see? So you go are you going now from your sixth form into the college this time? No we'll have finished. No we'll have finished then. You're finishing But now? Yeah, well next No. year after we've done our A levels. Af , you're ow , you're doing the le the levels now? Yeah. Yeah. That'll be it. And that'll be end of the school And what what are you erm qualifying in? Well What levels are you taking for what? I'm doing English, History and Chemistry. And I'm doing Maths, Physics and History. Very good! Oh well. Well, I wish you every success! Thank you . Thank you . And I wish you every success in your project too. Mm. And I hope that I've been of some assistance. You have Yeah. yeah! So I, I can't think the there's anything else you you'd like to ask me? No, I don't think so. Can't remember. That erm Turn the tape off. It's going. Is that going? No it's stopped. fair enough. Right. Okay let's come on to the, the report itself erm tt okay I've forgotten who was He, he was based there basically Eh? okay, and he was Right. No i it was, I think Richard and I Well were doing the first Mm Yeah Yeah so erm I can start it Okay. And I think erm the article itself erm s says in, in the, the first part it, it seems to be written in a very sort of erm very pro-peasant style, it's like a justification of things that are happening, he s says that the reasons for the, the peasant movement were the exact opposite of what the gentry in Hankow and Changchun were saying erm that the, that the Party, that the revolutionary authorities had, had taken wrong measures because they thought that the reasons for these movements were, were otherwise and these we they were considered detrimental so they had to change these, these er original wrong meas measures to benefit the future of the revolution. Now the development of the peasant movement in Hunan may be divided into two periods. Now the, the first period erm which runs from erm the first part of the, the first period, sorry, runs from er January to June nineteen twenty six. Now that's when the movement was erm mainly underground, it was erm s organization and working together er in a sort of a covert manner, things were very secretive er and then after June it became more open as it became, the, the er movement became more accepted or well known, it became difficult to continue it underground so it became more open. Now the member ship up to nine September nineteen twenty six was between about three and four hundred thousand but usually what happened is that when people would join they, they put their, their name down and it was the whole family joined Do you think er I, I, I don't know if that's true Yeah, I, I thought that was a bit erm Cos he's saying, he's saying by, by twenty seven, some time in twenty, nineteen twenty seven there were two million, about two million names and therefore that meant that there were ten million members. Yeah. Mm. Obviously Well after reading Right. Yes I think they, they're gonna take an optimistic view aren't they? They're trying to,i it, it's er Yes. I it is trying to er to, to sort of talk up the figures Mm. to, to put reasons why that this doesn't mean the it actually means more, and I think to a certain extent there may be justification, some people may have put their name down and meant the whole family Mm. but but possibly this wasn't the majority case. Er er but I think that's the, the theme that runs through the whole thing, especially when he's talking about his fourteen great achievements, is the fact that basically I mean he's trying to sell himself, as you said before, he's a pretty lowly member at this, you know, erm at this case and there therefore obviously he's out to make a name for himself. Yeah because the document's going back to Shanghai and he wants to impress Yeah. the leadership in Shanghai. And I, I, I think obviously everything that he says has to be taken with a pinch of salt, but we'll, we'll come on to that Right now the second period, returning to the article Sorry was from October to January nineteen twenty seven, and this was a period that was, is really characterized by revolutionary action. Membership of the Party increased dramatically to, to two million people and then the masses under leadership again saying there was, they're, they're looking at about ten million, and they're saying half the peasants in the are organized, that these are, are people who are, who, who are at the forefront of the, of the movement, involvement is, is very high. Now the main target of the attack were the, the local tyrants, the evil gentry and the, the lawless landlords, people who'd previously held power before who the peasants, or who the communists were trying to to, to take the power away from, they, they were people who were it was possible to motivate the peasants against er again phrasing everything, er the people are evil, you know, that they, they were tyrants. And in passing as well, as the movement gathered pace, they also hit out against patriarchal ideas and institutions, other things that the peasants could be lead to believe had, had wronged them. And that the peasant associations had now become the, the sole erm sort of er th they were the authority, they, they, they began to take over control, they were th the leading the thing. Now erm the wealthy peasants or and sort of and, and other people who, who were possibly sort of er small landlords, they were trying to get involved in these associations because they felt they, they could see they were gathering pace and that the, the cost of exclusion would be very high. It seems they had two er registers really, one register meant that you were a part of the movement, the other register I imagine meaning you were actually an enemy of this movement so if you got on that register you, you were in, that that would er spell very bad news, so consequently you were trying to join the, the, the first association. Unfortunately the people er involved in the associations we were trying to block people joining, if, if you were wealthy in any way or if you had er you were a landlord they didn't want you to be, to be er a member of this cos I think there was fear that if you were to join you may be able to, yeah Yeah. exert your authority. So er I mean the power of the gentry just moved very rapidly towards the, the power of the peasants in a very short period of time. Now erm everyone thought basically this was terrible, that I mean that erm er people, I think a lot of people would see this, the violence, the, the outrage, and say that this is bad, this is very unlawful disrespectful and, and dangerous and this is, it is not acceptable. Just before you go on, sorry erm er would an official of a township peasant association walk into the house of a rich peas peasant, register in hand and say will you please join the peasant association, how would the rich peasant answer. A tol tolerably well behaved one would say peasant association, I've lived here for decades tilling my land, I've never heard of such a thing before and I have managed to live alright, I advise you to give it up. Yes I So isn't that, what are you saying well I think this is in the very early stages er of the association when things were Mm. beginning to go, when they're looking for members it was important to get er high involvement in this. Now their, the prime target, the people who they r they really want to join, I think, are the the poor peasant Now it goes on to say that they need to get the middle peasants to join and to go out and do more explanatory work among them. Yes er I mean they er they, they want the whole peasant movement involved, I mean after all the peasants they're, although they're a wealthy peasant, these people are not enormously wealthy, they may be wealthy on a relative scale in a village, but certainly not er you know er er er half as weal anything like as wealthy as, as a, the, the landlords, the large land owners and so on and that it is a peasant movement, the whole peasant strata they wanted to involve Yeah because only, but we're But all Mao's talking about the whole peasant population Mm. but all Mao's trying to say when he but rich peasants yeah but all Mao's trying to say was are only ten percent so why are you try why are you saying they want to get the rich peasants when the, the poor peasants comprise seventy percent of the peasant population? Well I think that they want people from they want the whole peasant base, they want represe they want as many people from the peasant base as is possible. Now in, in the early stages you certainly want to encourage as many people from this base to join, when the development, the movement gathers pace it's possible to say right we possibly w there's some, sort of the wealthy peasants we don't really want, they're the ones who prospered under the old scheme of things, they were the ones who had some power and influence and er by even drawing them into the association there is a danger that they may sort of assume the lead or take an active role which would be detrimental, which would negate the movement and try and make it er less revolutionary and more lawful, they would go back to sort of reform of the old system rather than the overthrowal But I I th I think what we're talking about is the fact th that Ma you know he's writing in nineteen twenty seven, that, that he's not quite sure about the means to an end, he's sort of writing he, you know, it's, in a way it's like writing an essay it's to, to a certain extent you start writing the essay and then once you start writing it you suddenly realize what you want to say, I mean he started writing this erm and he, he's not quite sure I th I think, you know, where, where it's all leading to. Er I think what he's trying to say about the rich peasants is that er that they were always resisting the movement, it was only later on when they find that you know, that they, they need to get involved otherwise their own positions are er threatened then, then they're joining and they're only joining but were not actually participating in it, they're not moving along, and so that's what, that's why he's making a distinction between different types of peasants. You know he obviously sees rich peasants as you know a more er unattractive class of peasant, I mean he sees the poor peasants as the real er vanguard of the revolution, the people who have done all the work and erm sacrificed er security at an early stage Mm. and really got the momentum going and that it was the middle peasants that he needed to get the support so that they can move forward and have a revolution. Yes so, so in he, he's very much putting the emphasis on, on the peasants and the poor peasants Yes. and it, it's really saying okay you, you, you, it's okay to exclude the rich. Mm. Is the point that you're making is that, that when you look at the evidence later on it sort of conflicts with that? Erm to a certain degree. I was just, I was just Yeah. but, but we, we, we might come across this again a bit later on th that i it's entirely possible that what is being said at the early part isn't actually borne out by the details that come later on. Mm. Cos he, he changes his actual definition of peasants later on doesn't he? Yeah. Yes, yeah. But no wh what I'm, when I said borne out later on I mean later on in the report Right. not, not later on in terms of time. Right, okay. Yes I think, so erm er I, I think really it's that as the movement gathers pace and landlords, or small landlords and other people who have prospered under the old scheme, try and gain admission they are blocked Mm. because there are fears that they will be detrimental. Now there's, obviously this is quite a,th there's a lot of violence involved in this, the targets are being hit and i it's not political actually it's active, people on the streets erm there are some people being killed, there's Yeah. injury and all this going on. Now to a lot, a lot of people this is unacceptable and terrible and er it's, er he's arguing here that the fact is that the, the, the peasant masses have risen to fulfil their historic mission and that the forces of rural democracy have to rise to overthrow the forces of rural feudalism. He's sort of saying, he's justifying it in, in a very Marxist way, he said this is our duty, what we're doing is, is, is natural, it's a process of, of his history you know that there's nothing we can do avoid this and we should in fact be pleased to see th th this actually taking place, it's er it's not a question at all of, of the parents going, peasants going too far, it's not er a reign of terror at all, erm in fact more than that it, it's a sort of erm it, it's not even retribution i it's a, it's a course of history. And he then justifies particular incidents of of er of violence and attack by saying that it's the local tyrants, the, the evil gentry, the landless, the lawless landlords who have driven the peasants to do this anyway. The most violent of the revolts and the most serious disorders have occurred in places where tyrants perpetrated the worst outrages. It was er er I mean the, the peasants apparently were, were sort of accounting, they were looking and say well this particular er landlord was, was very unhelpful, he was very anti us and in er because of that he will get a, a worse erm punishment than, than the other ones would. Now th he was saying that, it's being argued here that, that very seldom is it that the punishment exceeded the crime, that they're able to assess, look at the behaviour of the people in power before the movement er gathered pace and to, to, to assess how they er they were, how sort of humane and so on and, and by saying that depending on how you, you, you did before hand, you w you now your punishment, it will, will be a administered accordingly which is an interesting concept, I'm not sure quite how accurate these assessments could've been, I think really when things get going it's er really very difficult to stop them. And, and also that, he then goes on to say that the revolution, it isn't, it's not a re re final thing, it's not an insurrection, er he says it's not like writing an essay, you know all these er analogies, that I mean basically the revolution is an over , it needs force er and i it's, it is a violent ,y y you don't, in order for the revolution to have been a success it, it needs to be Right. forceful. So he's setting up justification for Yes. violent revolution? Yes. Right. Mm yeah there, there is a need to exceed proper limits, he says, that proper limits have to be exceeded in order to right a wrong er it's also he says necessary to create terror for a while. Erm you know, almost you have to go too far or to go such er an extent it would be erm and the force simply to erm stop counter-revolution and, and to overthrow all, you know, deep seated authorities that had lasted thousands of years, I mean to, to overcome that you do need a revolution. Erm when he moves on to talk about the movement of the riff-raff this is Right can I just stop there just for a second? Er Yeah. are, are you happy with this as a, a strategy? As a strategy to, to involve peas as a justification do you mean or ? Mm. Erm yeah I mean I suppose so. I mean if they'd been trodden, downtrodden for thousands of years, I mean the whole power of the landlords is in the, the councils in the erm townships everywhere. I mean but they can't Have they been downtrodden for thousands of years or was it more recent? Well I mean relations have existed for thousands of years. I mean for, in order for there to be peasant power, authority, I, I don't think it can come gradually. I mean they do need the greatest force. Mm. And if, if they do they do things at half measure it's more likely to be crushed I would've thought. I reckon revolution Oh yeah but revolution's gotta be violent as well. Mm. but erm I mean obviously we've looked at the landlord tenant relationship before, erm and, and we know that it's got worse, you know, with the nineteen thirties and the world depression this is nineteen twenty six. but, yeah, exactly, which, which is why as eloquent as I would like to be this morning but but basically what, what, what I'm trying to say is that erm, you know, it's nineteen twenty seven, the world depression hasn't happened yet erm and he's assuming that you know, well you, you just said downtrodden masses for thousands of years I'd say, you know, balls to that erm ba basically i i I don't think it's that bad and I mean obviously he, he's making the picture, I would say he's making the picture out to be f far worse than it actually is because he, he is taking an extreme sort of left point of view so to speak. capitalizing on the situation that's getting worse, whereas I don't think it Was it?nineteen twenty seven Yeah I, I don't think he's making it that, that much worse than it is, I think it is still quite bad at this point in time but it's you know, since revolution yes the landlords still hold The landlords still hold all the power. hold a lot of power but I mean as, you know, as, as everyone's suggesting. But they may have been in, in Changchun and around Changshun. I mean i i it, it was a notorious warlord area. There, there clearly were a, a, a group, not j the warlords but underneath them a set of landlords who were extremely you, you, you've got this gentry who are probably screwing the peasantry. And e e e even if it's not general th there may be something in the argument this, this, this was what was happening in Yeah. in Hunan. One thing about the strategy is that it seems to me the ultimate goal is perhaps to get rid of the warlords Yeah. and then perhaps, you know, imperialism Right. generally erm and if we're talking about the strategy we've gotta sort of er sort out for ourselves whether we think the strategy of getting rid of the local tyrants and the evil gentry is the wa right way to actually achieve that the aims of getting rid of warlords. Yes. A a are you happy with that? Erm no I well I mean well y you know, you're a recipient of this, are you, are you gonna go along with that? I'm not quite sure really You see I think if I I'm trying to en envisage it, if you are erm you, you live in an area and er there have been some er outbreaks of violence of, you know, a nasty nature, some people have been killed, there's been sort of erm disruption and er and so on, I don't know how you'd feel, I think you may feel erm a bit concerned about this, you'd see things breaking down and you wouldn't see quite where it's going to, to lead. You, you, you may come across er legislature like this but you, you wouldn't be sure, when you they're justifying it by saying that this is natural, this is a progression in er a historical progression and that in fact that it's a erm it's only because the, the landlords were, were sort of evil and nasty to us that, that i it, that they, this is happening. I'm not sure how well that would wash with some people they're i in an area that, like yeah which was very er oppressed and where the, the warlords and the landlords were screwing the peasants I can see that there's enough pent up er fear er and angers so that this might work but in other areas I don't know effective this would be, that you Er we said last week that the on the only, the only real way that the peasants were gonna er mobilize was if they, they thought that they could actually win and so surely the violence would have been a means of saying we're a credible force to be reckoned with Yeah. and that would attract more peasants wouldn't it? I mean he does actually make er expose di differences between different areas where, where he says peasant associations er where the landlords are the worse they will suffer the worse punishment whereas Mm yeah. er people that have behaved more er better you know they, they may be only fined or whatever and er although it's a revolution, I mean it's a rise of an association of a a power to sort of, to erm to counteract landlord power so become this sort of balance almost. I mean in the end he's talking about they've got the supreme authority but er but not actually yet even though he talks about revolution they're not actually seizing the land unless they actually think the landlord's done something wrong like erm rents or whatever. I mean so then, then it's a, a reaction Mm. not being er pro-active. So are they looking for it to lead to a, sort of getting back to last week's terminology, a restoration or, or are are they actually, do they know that they're getting involved in a revolution? Ah. Well what, what, what, can I put it slightly differently, I mean what is Mao talking about here? He's talking about a revolution. Yeah. Mm. there's no messing with that No he's Mao is into revolution. Yeah well we wouldn't expect him to say anything else really. Right. the wealthy But I think the, the peasants are hoping for restoration, or he's Yeah. implying you sort of see that they are reluctant to get involved in this, they've got a lot to lose from this. I mean if you, if things are going, if you're doing okay Well they're not necessarily then you, you, you probably don't wanna die, if you've got absolutely nothing Mm. to live for then, then it's different. But are you living are you living, are you okay so you've got nothing to live for erm and you're finding something else to live for, is that revolution really, do you want the Okay and everything or do you just wanna get er say system twenty years ago. No revolution I'd say. For the, for the poor peasants who al almost have nothing to lose Mm. Mm. from this then I think that in fact the they would be more and more involved the more sort of radical they're going to And, and do they think they've got everything to gain Oh yeah. Well I mean it's impor I think it's quite important to remember it's sort of a means to an end. I mean we, we're only talking about, you know, er an area very close to er whatever it's called Mm. erm erm you know,i in the area Hu Hunan erm and that therefore, I mean how relevant is it to the rest of China? And sort of Mao, Mao has sort of done, done this report and he's then sending it back to Shanghai, and, and my impression is that Shanghai is then taking this, you know,t to, to be read that basically that's the situation in the whole of China Mm. and sort of you're jumping to enormous generalizations Yes. erm we I mean we, we, we've looked at the, the peasant tenant relationship erm and my, my opinion is that basically you know it wasn't quite as bad as everyone's made out erm but al okay we're saying that warlords were, were very imperialistic and they were a huge fact to be considered but in Hunan and within the south erm eastern region say Mm. but I mean I, I still think at the end of the day that, you know, we, we, we, we still have to realize that we are only looking at, at a minute erm area of China and therefore you know how, how relevant is it. This is, this is a period before the Kuomintang sort of, you know, decided, came into power or whatever and Bu but no it haven't they just seized Th th they've come through and they've taken control of the area. And isn't that why he's been sent there rather than anything else, cos he's trying to see the effects of the new control and see if, you know Yeah, right, yes well yes the peasant associations are Right, yeah. and it, well you know, it wouldn't really be worthwhile him going anywhere else because that's where Mm. warlord I thought they came in s sort of like i in, into proper power in nineteen twenty eight. Nineteen twenty eight yes I mean a a as a sort of central government bu bu but yes, I mean, er er at this stage they'd just got rid of the warlords mm. and, and, and the Kuomintang is not yet set up any local government or national government, it's before that but there are, but, but it is I mean I, I, I, I take your point about it being sort of a microcosm Yeah. but i if we take it first of all back well wh okay what was happening in that microcosm, and then the extent to which you can generalize. Right. But see, hold on,y but you're saying,an and this broadly would be, be like the er quote right wing view that there's, there's nothing really much wrong in the countryside, landlord tenant relationships are not that bad, we can just really leave it alone and certainly we shouldn't have any violence because that's, that's gonna be counter-productive. Mm. And what Mao is saying is quotes such talk may sound plausible but in fact it's wrong. Firstly the local tyrants, evil gentry and lawless landlords have themselves driven the peasants to this, so th there is more to it than that, and secondly a revolution is not a dinner party or writing an essay or painting a picture or doing embroidery, it cannot be so refined, so leisurely and gentle so temperate, kind, courteous, restrained and, and magnanimous. Revolution is insurrection, an act of violence by which one caste overthrows another. Rural revolution, the revolution by which the peasantry overthrows the power of the feudal landlord. And then going on to say in doing that you've got to be violent. Mm. Now they, they are two clearly very different visions. There is a no we mustn't, no, things aren't too bad, just leave it alone it'll be okay, and somebody coming in and saying no that's not the way you should look at it, that there is provocation if you're gonna have a revolution it has got to be violent and it is right to be violent. Mm. Cos I mean it's easy to think cos Mao, we know he's a communist or whatever Mm. to think this report would be about revolution and erm I mean what strikes me is that there's a real debate going on between Yes. the communism, the Kuomintang which are united at the time, and obviously the, the Kuomintang putting forward the idea of a restoration Mm. so that the landlord class is still, you know, to be preserved, and obviously he's, he's criticizing that Right. and so all these things like er is it terrible or fine Yeah. or is it riff-raff or Yes. blah blah I mean it's er one er, just the two sides you know, whether you see revolution as, as necessary and right and Yeah but I, I think that's the importance basically I mean reading through this it's very easy to sort of in, in a way you know go, go to this point of view because it was written at the time, but I mean we, we still now that it was a very sort of say left wing point of view Yeah. and therefore what he said was, should be taken with a pinch of salt because, I mean he was selling his idea. But it, but it's still gotta be taken seriously. Yeah it's gotta be taken seriously but I mean, you know, there's, there's no reason why we should believe every word he says, I mean he's sort of But the other thing is though that he's er he's also saying that, you know, this i if this is an actual situation Mm. I mean if the communists actually saying this is a force, I mean he, he says at the beginning Yeah. erm several hundred million peasants will rise like a mighty storm, like a hurricane, a force so swift and violent that no power, however great, will be able to hold it back. And obviously, you know, the idea of this report is to say you know, should the communists er trail behind and or stand in their way. And obviously the Kuomintang are rather s s he sees them standing in their way or Right. at least trailing behind and he wants er the communists to ma break away from this idea and to, to really lead the peasants. He says that th the communists have, have got haven't got the erm the reasons right for this and that they ne if they don't get them right then they, they are going to, to, it will be bad for the revolution, they need to Right. get these things sorted out. Cos I mean, you could say he was biased but I mean he, he obviously thinks this is actually what's happening. Tt and he obviously thinks that, you know, well you've got to move with it. I mean he mu he must've believed that there is this insurmountable force building up Yes. erm Well I was gonna go on actually and erm slightly and talk about the, the violence, his justification of Yeah can I just stop you just for a second? If we just go back to, to what we've just said and read the first paragraph,wh what he's really saying here is that a revolution is taking place Exactly yeah. and erm that there is this upsurge and he, he goes on, in a very short time in ce central, southern and northern provinces, I E the whole of China, several hundred million peasants will rise up like a mighty storm, like a hurricane, a force so swift and violent no power however great will be able to hold it back. There is, a revolution is in process and it is, it, it's going to ta it's gonna,is going to take over. twenty two years later You can't ma you can't what? No I mean th that's what he's saying but I mean Right. basically he's studied this minute area of China and, and basically, from that minute area of China, from his experiences, bearing in mind that he's obviously trying to sell revolution, he is then generalizing about the whole of China. Right. Now from the, from the evidence that we've all looked at over the l past few weeks and tell me if I'm boring you erm from the evidence we've looked at over the past few weeks you know I would say that I'd say I'd say that was a bit of, that was erm a gross exaggeration erm Okay. maybe even a lie. Well Right. But this is what he wants well you know over the last few weeks we know that er Well yeah, it's er, this is pure propaganda isn't it? Yeah. we know there's, there's a a huge increase in Well I think as long as you realize that. uprisings and so as contemporary surely, you know,er he hasn't got or anything so he can, he, he's got his own er political beliefs Yeah. but erm I don't actually think that there was revolution in process going if there was, if you know, a hu a huge increase in It must be more than propaganda though? Yeah. He, he must actually believe in He was a nutter. I, yeah I think to his own committee, to his own he would actually say well I've been to er lead them into having a revolution , to open their eyes and then to motivate them erm now he's not saying that, he's saying that No but if he was saying that about Hunan well what chance do we stand if we're not even, you know Right. getting some control of Hunan then Right, just to get a bit of where, where did Mao come from? I mean was he a rich peasant, was he a poor peasant or Er his father was a rich peasant. Oh. But I think he he, he seems to be somebody who, who is who wants activity, who, who wants heavy involvement Mm. personally an and from er and the rest and he, he's gone to this area and he's looked and he, he's seen and he may have interpreted this, or wanted to interpret it so that when his report went back that the, he was saying that we must get a move on to the people in the Party saying that we need to get involved now, we need to be in all these areas, we need to be helping things develop and, and being a part at the front. He's, he's trying to to give the impression that, that you need to do something immediately. Right. So what he's saying is l look you guys, a revolution is taking place and we need to be in there leading it. Yeah. Mm. And it is not just a revolution, it's a rural revolution, it's a revolution which is taking place through the peasantry. Now But that, that contradicts what we were looking I think that's fair enough because a revolution could actually happen. at before, surely? No I mean I think that I mean we, we've been looking before you know that the situation got Yeah. incredibly er you know worsened basically during the nineteen thirties Yeah. and w we haven't suggested that, that there was a revolution already taking place. Right. So, so it's entirely possible that all of this is misconceived? Well that's what I would argue. Right. Okay But he may he may have seen things and, and Yes. either subconsciously or consciously interpreted them to, to mean something other than actually what may have been taking place. He may, because he really seems to want something to happen Mm. he wants activity that he may have er er er or alternatively maybe the area is genuinely And we might, we we might be wrong. Okay isn't it, is it that there is actually some change going on No there is some change going on in the rural economy and perhaps he does want to interpret it as er a revolution which the communists can actually get involved in so he's writing his paper and saying look, this is happening it may not be a rel revolution, but it but, yeah well it may not be, you know Right. erm a purely class thing erm but we can actually get in there Right. and er lead these people and Yes. Yeah Right. And clearly something is happening, I mean millions of peasants are joining Mm. are becoming involved in a peasant movement, are joining peasant associations, that they are, they're taking up arms,the they're doing a whole range of things, something quite big is happening here. But perhaps it's, I mean you know what you've always argued, the reason why it's happening is because of increasing commercialization. Right, okay And th that's why the situation's changing Sure. and Mao's just But it, but it's okay, but it's still happening, that change wha wha what Can we just take this on a, on a slightly more political level. Why do you think he would need to say this to, to the communist leadership, and why might it might be quite contentious and controversial th this idea of look a revolution is taking place and it's led by the peasants? Well they may want to lead it themselves and actually Who might want to lead it? The communists. Right. And in actually instigate And what sort of revolution would, would the communists be leading? A rural one er the pe poor peasants. Go back to, to a Marxist position. They'd want a, they would want class revolution through, through Right and wh wh wh which, which in classic Marxist ideology Proletariat. Urban proletariat Which is the urban proletariat? Mm. Right. And what's your,wha what's the classic Marxist view of the peasantry? There were absolutely conservative. Right, yeah. And they, they,the you don't get a revolution from the peasantry. Mm. Er pre precisely the revolution is led by the urban working class Right, yeah. the proletariat. And here is Mao coming along and saying look a revolution is taking place and you guys don't know anything about it, and it is being led by the peasantry. communist with the, the Kuomintang I mean,wo would they be of the opinion that revolution should happen, but maybe they, they would be thinking more in terms of an urban revolution or would they be er very similar opinion to the Kuomintang, you know The, the, the, the the er certain sections of the Communist Party of which Mao was a member and certain sections of the left wing of the Kuomintang were taking a very similar view on, on rural revolution. Erm the the Kuomintang, make no mistake about it, were committed to a national revolution erm an and therefore they were revolutionary, they were, they were claiming to be as revolutionary as the communists. Okay there might be a different way of getting there an an and they might er wouldn't have sought to do it through ca class conflict but they were as revolutionary. So, and certainly Mao was not that out of line with the left of the Kuomintang at that time. But they were talking about forty years or so Yeah sure. So wh when we actually say communist, I mean, it does seem odd that it would be controversial to the communists for Mao to come back and talk about revolution. Indeed. Absolut er particularly a rural re led revolution. But he's also saying isn't he at the end of this paragraph, or he's implying that th this is this revolution is not happening because we the communists are making it happen, it is happening and we need to react to it and somehow we've therefore got a choice, we can either trail behind or we can lead it. And Mao is, is making a bid A a revolution is taking place and B we have got to lead it and it, it's a rural revolution. Now those, those are very big challenges Yeah. to the Communist Party given their approach . No you're absolutely right it, it might all be wrong, it might be totally misconceived, in which case it's likely to go wrong, but to begin with we have to accept that this is what Mao is saying. I mean Mao will have no merit in actually distorting it deliberately to try and motivate his leaders because Er B b because I would've thought that if he, that in the sense that if he came back and said the revolution's already happening, all we need to do is to get Yeah. to the front and lead it Yeah. but, I mean if that actually wasn't happening you'd think he'd''ve come back and said we've got to get in there now, you know get our, our message across and, and make a revolution movement. But they, they could he would almost need a different emphasis. But what better, what better way to sell yourself? You're a member of the radical party Right. Right. what better way to sell yourself than come up with a contentious issue backed up by evidence that you But I mean it's sort of, it's which is exactly what Mao was trying to do. But couldn't you just first the potential, I mean it there wasn't there, so let's get in and really you know the course of revolution I think if Mao was to, to go back and say it's happening, you've got it wrong I've seen Yes. I know, he's, it's like a claim to I should be in charge. Yeah. Well It's a sort of well But if he's wrong I mean you can't just come back and be contentious if you're wrong cos I mean otherwise you know it's, it's of no pr of no work. Well he, he possibly may have felt that he could erm very quickly stir things up but there we it wasn't quite to the extent that this was happening but there was the, the chance it would. If he, he doesn't want to talk about potential because it will er not make the, the, the necessary action immediate, but if he can come back and say I've seen and I know what's going on Which he is saying. I think it's very important, the second and third sentence Yeah. he says that he's called together these fact finding conferences, he's got the information therefore he er he has a right to say something, he should be listened to cos he's done the research. Yeah. And, and the people sitting in Shanghai, who have never been in the rural areas which is Yeah. was true, they don't know what's going on. Look I've been there, I've seen it got the here we are Mm. But he s seems to be making a claim to be, to sort of promote it within the Yeah. the system, he wants to be Sure but, but is it, well I'm not sure one could say he wants his ideas to be accepted not necessarily, it's not a a bid Not po personal or anything. So presumably he's actually believing these ideas I mean I would've thought he, he if he came back and said there's tension, there's, you know it was, between the two classes and we go in and we direct them in a certain way, put the right ideas in their mind, that we can harness the revolution. But he's not saying that right, you'd've thought he, he'd actually come up and say er er he would have said that for, you know, for his sake and also for the good of the Party. Yeah I mean it's, there's an interesting issue that whether you, whether Mao really believed this This is psychology really. or, or whether it's just that this is the best case that I can promote. Yeah. I mean, how do you know? But I mean I think it is important to establish that, that this is what he's saying. And he wants to, at the very least I think it's reasonable to say, he wants to influence the Communist Party that, that this is the way you should be looking at the world and it, it is different to the way you were looking at it. And it, it has huge implications for the Communist Party that look a rural revolution is taking place and it's being led by the peasantry. I mean that, it's an enormous challenge to the whole ideology of the, of the existing party. Mm. Well it's, it's quite, it's very threatening isn't it? He, he's Right. he's looking at the, their inspiring source and saying i it's not the case Yeah that's right. And he's saying look er you need to get organized to do this and it is okay to be violent. So he's, he's, he's arguing for a violent rural revolution. It's under way and this is the way to go with it. Does anybody object to this strategy of violence? I think it's I'm not convinced about it because I think there's s some people would, don't, will not want it to be, to be involved in violence I, I wouldn't think. Mm. Some people would, it may be in fact a selling point direct, some people who'd felt they'd Mm. been turned over by warlords, they want to get their own back. Yeah, yeah. So I mean i it's a split, depends who you want er on your team really. But I mean are there er er y y you're squeamish, you're not er violence No, no I mean, I don't think the situation is Mm. I think a means to an end he's trying to sell himself erm okay changes are happening but, you know,changes in the early nineteen thirties, you know, Right. erm He's ahead of his time. Yeah. I think if you can see your lot being bettered though and er you've got nothing to lose, why not? I mean I wouldn't have any feeling But I mean that is for the landlord okay I'd be quite happy to certainly the case for for the sort of the landless and the, the very poor peasant and I think this is why the, the medium and the wealthy peasants are less interested to be involved, they have got things to lose. It depends, if you need them they're involvement then you may have to do it a slightly different way or maybe it's the case that they have to accept this or that you're gonna turn them over too. Yeah. Mm. I mean once violence starts er moving then you know, the middle peasants have to join unless Mm. them themselves become targets. So you know But I th can get more support Mm. some violent But it's a dangerous strategy though because when you start implementing these things then they can go out of hand and you've got these measures and it's, it's turned on to Oh right, yes i it may pay to go out of hand. Well that's a revolution isn't it? Well er yes but if it ca goes out of hand against the Communist Party which is Right yes. a possibility, I mean Mussolini sort of affair Yeah, sure. things have turned round and you instigate violent measures there's, there's no controls left. Yeah. So can you, if you can harness it Right. you feel you can it might be a good strategy, if there's a risk you can't it might not be. Right. Right. Erm all I'm sure about is that there was this change going on in the rurar econ yeah and, and erm I would probably argue that the peasants set up their, some of their mutual aid associations and their associations to actually restore some of the er perks that they'd had before Sure. Would you support violence though? Yeah that's the cru isn't that the crucial issue? I mean ar are you going, are you going to be a real revolutionary and say look this, this revolution is so important that Well there's I'm gonna co I'm gonna accept violence, condone violence okay I mean y y you can look at it from a point of view that Mao is a real revolutionary and that's what he wants Right. but you've gotta question whether the peasants are. Okay yes sure. Okay. And I can't personally Are you gonna support violence or not? Erm No. right? No I, I didn't say no, I think that erm but you said no for me I think no I could be persuaded to support Y y y you're okay for violence bit? I'm very happy with it. You y y y I, I don't really understand what you mean by just the I don't understand what you mean by just being okay Well I, I'm for the violence bit. Well I'm gonna go and kill landlords. Mm. Eh? We're gonna kill landlords, evil gentry, tyrants. They're not evil gentry, they're not tyrants definitely justification for it if you're a, a poor peasant. poor peasants. I think, I think that the fact that We're talking about poor peasants. What we were talking about the poor peasants last week, the week before last, they're not that poor they're they're living, they're living at a subsistence level They wanna get on their bike, you know go and get a job! It's not a problem . Do you know how many Rolls Royces there were in China? They're so they're so ingrained to eating, you know, maize and and sweet potatoes and having that day in day out You, you just looking for the excuse to but what's the justification, what's what's your justification for going out and killing the tyrant? Because I mean you want to improve your lot because, you know, you've been downtrodden by the landlords. It's the only it's the only way No you want, you are s you are s that's a lie because you don't wanna improve your lot because you've been happy under the Confucius No no and everything Well not any more because the landlord has abused his position and Why has it suddenly changed since nineteen hundred? It's getting worse, we already said that last week didn't we? Because I mean the landlords have changed Oh God ! they're now absen they're a absentee landlords, they're now increasing rents, you know, they're increasing a cash er deposit, all s you know all sorts of things. I mean the, the position got worse and Communist left wing propaganda. No the situation was getting worse and the only way that they we er that it was gonna be made better was by violence and, cos the violence is the only way that they, the only way that they're going to change the existing order ! Not at all, I mean you find any other method. Well how else would they do it? They can't just, er say the lan the landlords Elections. were threatened, say oh okay fair enough, it was good I mean, you know, talking about I mean us six er pe peasants we've got a landlord, you know, oh shall we go and kill him, he, he's got all the authority, he's got armed militia, the works, now to me he could have got armed militia! Yeah that's true. In certain cases the warlords would use this but how often, we've already talked, how often did your landlord, they, they used er sort of agencies to collect, only but how often did they sort of er did they the militia on them? How often do they sort of decimate They have positions in, in authority, local government which means they have, you know, the arms of, of the law. as system. Hold on c can we sort of stop this now or we'll go on for ever Y y you're absolutely right that there is some doubt about this was really whether the countryside was like this. On the other hand I think we have to take seriously what Mao is, is saying that and it may conflict with that, that other view of the countryside an an and we, I think we do have to take this evidence into account, I think it's more important to accept what Mao is saying. C can, can I come back to, to,y y you're about to go on to I think the riff-raff and about the revolution. Could you just say a bit about that. This, I, I was gonna leave that to Rick Right, right. considering we only got half the Well I mean now basically the ri er the question about a riff-raff is er just back to the old idea whether you're going too far or whether Right. er it was , basically the Kuomintang are just saying that the people who are actually leaving associations are riff-raff, you know Yeah. they're not particular er able or Mm. well meaning people but I mean the reason they're saying that is simply because they don't like what they're doing full stop. I mean the fact that they're peasants means that, you know, they're not worth much Right. erm so the fact that now peasants are running their own associations isn't you know a riff-raff , obviously the peasants in your, your point of view Right. Yeah. Erm now he talks about the vanguards of revolutions i it's just his distinction between the types of of peasant erm he looks at the rich peasants first of all and originally they're, they're not into revolution at all, you know, they don't want to join peasant associations because they've got nothing to gain erm as er er had said before, you know,p if you ask a rich peasant to join he's gonna say well, you know, I've never heard of such a thing before, you know, I've, I can manage to live alright, I advise you to gi er give it up or alternatively he may just say, you know, good God no, you know, it's too dangerous I, I don't want to be knocked off by my landlord. Erm however w w with the changing environment erm such as the bigger demonstrations, also the continuing victory of the nor the northern expedition erm it was more easy to join these associations er indeed the there's a sort of climate of opinion that, you know, if you don't join that then you'll be left behind and threatened yourself. Erm and so now rich peasants are actually actively seeking to join er associations but finding it difficult, I mean they have to be er pay an additional admission fee may be ten yuan or, or whatever, you know, usually far higher than the normal peasant or erm they have to get someone to actually put their name forward to say that you know they're not such a bad bloke. Erm however even if they have joined they aren't actually actively erm Right. erm supporting it, I mean they are just putting their name down so that they can stay out of trouble. Right so was it, they, they were getting they were joining cos they wanted to they didn't, they were joining cos they actively wanted to be involved in a revolutionary sort of No they weren't. I mean And they were just worried that if they didn't join in, they weren't part of the club then er Mm but evidently they joined you know, they'd be put on the other register. Yeah but they basically just don't want to lose out either way, I mean there was no reason for them to join originally but when events happen and they see the tide turning almost, you know get with the bandwagon, I mean they, they don't want now to be seen as the minority and the ones under threat, so you go with the er majority, with the, the stronger force Mm. whatever at the time. So peasant associations were quite influential by this stage? You know they, they Yeah but as they become more influential and er basically he talked about the erm demonstration on the anniversary of the October revolution, erm and then victories of the northern expedition and, and et etcetera and various victories erm I don't, you, you know, there is a the idea that, you know, the tu the tu er tide is turning erm you know they ought to join now rather than be firmly left behind Right. and you know acquainted with erm tt landlords Yeah. and suffering the consequences. Erm then he moves on to the middle peasants erm they're similar, I mean once again they, they've got enough to eat, they are, they aren't under as much stress, I mean th th they can su survive and so the idea of them risking all to support a revolution would be very er you know very risky at the time at the beginning er the opening period erm so once again th th I'd say their conclusion is afraid not, you know, I won't join a peasant association,i it won't last. Erm they're in no hurry to join but with this second period er from September or was it October and erm once again there is this idea that, you know, the tide is turning and they, they will now join erm they won't find it so hard to join as the rich peasants but once again they're not as enthusiastic and maybe they should be but they are, they are helping more but er er and this is the key er for which you know Mao talked about later is that we've got to get the middle peasant actually actively involved Right. in the revolution because they are such a, a large proportion er we can't really have them an ap apathetic you know part erm cos it'll al alienate too many and you know we won't have enough support that we need. Erm the last group, obviously the poor peasants which is the real vanguard of the revolution he says erm he says they have fought militantly through the two periods of underground work and of open activity, they're the most responsive to the Communist Party leadership. They are deadly enemies of the camp of the local tyrants and evil gentry and attack without the slightest hesitation. You know they joined it right at the beginning, they, they're the ones where the momentum's come from erm they're the ones asking the rich peasants to join them, the middle peasants and they're the ones leading the revolution,th they are the riff-raff if you, you know, want to take one view erm they haven't got anything to lose because of their position er er er er as erm a rich peasant may say, you know, what is there to keep me from joining yo you people have neither tile over your heads nor speck of land under your feet, and it's true they have got nothing to lose but these are the ones that are pushing the ideas forward and forming the associations. Erm he makes a distinction between poor peasants, some being utterly destitute and some just being less destitute but er basically as er seventy percent of the population erm they're the main group that's pushing revolution forward and s so therefore I mean it's this group that the Communist Party mustn't alienate, you know, they mu mustn't do anything to harm this group,associations the Communist Party mustn't attack erm the associations . It says leadership by the poor peasants is absolutely necessary, without the poor peasants there will be no revolution, to deny their role is to deny the revolution, to attack them is to attack the revolution. So, I mean these are the supporters that they, they've got to sort of focus on erm even i he does say that some of the erm er leaders of the associations aren't actually up to scratch but he says eighty five percent of them are and it would be wrong to attack or to arrest, you know, the other fifteen percent and it's got to come from their own discipline of the association, you let the movement grow together, don't try and er become er, you know, resisting forces because er these are the people who we've got to erm s stay with and to look after, to harness erm to work for and er so that's basically, is his conclusion. Don't you think he's, he's asking to much or, or saying that the peasants are doing too much. I mean they're, time in the dayre t But the fact they're doing it i is because they want a revolution, they're actually saying they, they are motivated these poor peasants, you know, the fact they are downtrodden, I mean, if you are comfortable then you're not gonna go out and Mm. an and start attacking er your environment and Yeah bu but that's When are you gonna okay, going back to the they were, they were actually after a revolution, or just after a rent, you know Yeah. The power's come back on. Yeah. You can be as thick as two short planks but I mean if you haven't got enough food in your belly you're gonna be wanting to do something about it. Right. But you're able to I thought, I thought they were comfortable though now, I thought so why are they doing it? He's just highlighting a problem The ones who decided they didn't wanna But it's not a question er of saying erm of saying it's, he's saying that they are already doing this and that We need to react to it and adjust our methods But you can't stop them, they're, they're the, the driving force. Okay but Er yeah but why, yeah okay I didn't mean that actually was he asking too much, I mean are we interpreting the peasants as having done, are we over interpreting what the peasants have done, basically? Yeah I, I'll agree with that, it was er in Bernhardt, you know he, he suggests that erm She. ownership erm They. that erm when, in, in all, all the uprisings, the peasant uprisings, when the communists actually tried to propose more than just rent reductions then the peasants tended to lose interest at that. Yes. So but Right. the, these, the uprisings were happening but whether revolution is Right. contentious Was Bernhardt, which area was she talking about? It was, wasn't it or Er sh yes she's mainly . But I mean I think that, what she's saying would, would, ought to apply more generally Yeah. i if that's the way the peasants see the world in so they're gonna see it the same everywhere. And, and peasants weren't by nature, in their, in their processes erm violent, it was only Right. it was mainly the communists Right. that used violence. So,bu bu but what Mao is saying is, is something fundamentally different Yeah. he's looking, he's interpreting the peasants as being a very different their nature, motivations being very different and, and they are ,th that they are taking action and what he, what he's saying here is that not only is this a peasant revolution taking place but it is a, it's a peasant revolution which is being led by the poor But I, I think Bernhardt does say that they are violent though. Yeah she says th that they are . I think the only, the essential difference is, is that erm I've forgotten what I was gonna say now. Sh she said that they mainly use it er as self defence and to Yes. protect their own person. Right so yeah she's, she's certainly not looking at them as being revolutionary Yeah. whereas Mao is now. Mm. But I mean i isn't he right in saying look this is, this is the erm figures he uses are seventy percent of the population that, that they are, if you like, our friends an and if you're gonna have a revolution successfully you've gotta make, distinguish between your friends and your enemies and the poor peasants are your real friends. You've got the landlords who are the en the enemies, you, you've got rich peasants who are broadly gonna be opposed to you and, and will only come in on your side at the very latest stage when they've realized that and then you've got the middle peasants who are wavering in the middle but will probably support you mu certainly much more easily. Bu but it, it's, it's momentum is being given by the poor. Mm. Yeah but we're, we're now talking in erm class awareness and class consciousness terms but Yeah. but they, they actually realized that they, they can no longer look to the landlords as their friends or their Yes. erm and so they've got to get together in, in class groups. I mean it's Although peasants sort of Not but you do explicitly have to talk about class because ten to fifteen years Well he's beginning to, he is beginning to. yeah because ten to fifteen years earlier there wasn't this amount of class consciousness and now you're saying that bond's completely broken down which I may agree with you on but, but they're now organizing themselves purely on this hey we're all friends now or s and we've gotta gang together all seventy percent of us against the landlords which wasn't Well the terms they were talking about ten years ago. Isn't exactly what's happening, I mean what, what's happening is that if they ri erm increase rents or whatever, the people who, who can't pay that they get together and they demonstrate Mm. and, and then find out But what they've got, you know, similar, similar objectives and whatever. but isn't this something new? Isn't this something very very new for them to do? Sure surely er there is Yeah which is happening there is an element of class consciousness in the fact that when the leaders of these er organizations were often put in prison, sort of five or ten thousand people sometimes used to go and, and destroy the prisons like to get them out, so surely that's so that's Yeah. bonding isn't it? Yeah bu bu but all I'm saying is though it's not, they're not it's not simply the idea of class it's the idea that Mm. the people worst affected are, are suddenly resisting All of the same class so perhaps we should er But yeah but their resisting and then, and then, from that, from demonstrations I mean it, it would be very easy to say that basically you know I don't know, the, the poor peasants banding around all peasants, you know Mao saw them and knew that this was where the, the core of erm the revolution Well wh what is it they've all got in common then? Eh? What is it that all these poor peasants have got I'm not saying they're not a class, I mean, I mean But the, I mean the reason they, that they have things in common also was when governments and other erm agencies began to get involved in rent collection. It, it then focused attention, rather than on individual landlords Mm. we who maybe only had two or three tenants, to these collection agencies so you concentrated their focus onto er they had a common target all of a sudden Yeah which was a unifying factor. I think the peasants may not immediately sort of, I mean they wou they would have sort of linked together to So they just wanted to get rid of this common target of the rent collectors? They didn't wanna get rid of the landlords? Oh and of the landlords. And then the idea of class you know similar groove. Well they didn't, they didn't immediately, they, they individually wanted to get rid of their individual landlord but obviously you can't as y you get together with all the other tenants They want to of this landlord and you find there's three of you, you, you would struggle to overthrow your landlord. However if you can unify against a, a target then there's a lot more of you against this thing so what Mao I think is, is saying that if we can utilize this Yeah absolutely. and im impose these class ideas on them, they're not immediately thinking like this, you can say the landlord can be treated as a class, they're all the same and you Right. are you know But Mao's not saying that, Mao's, Mao's saying they're already in a revolution and we're, we should Yes then er go in er and, and lead them he says so And the way to the lead them is to impose he's not saying these class ideas on them,so that they can unify against the landlords. Mm. But, but he is saying that there is this process under way, this revolutionary process of overthrowing the system as it stands. Mm. So on a,c just to summarize and, and then go on to the fourteen great achievements. What, what, what he's saying is that a revolution is taking place here and it is, within a very short time it's gonna spread on into other provinces. Erm that i it's a rural revolution erm it is a, it's it is a revolution which is being led by the poor and you can't dismiss this as, them as being riff- raff, they're, they are the poor peasants and whether we like it or not they are leading our, our revolution. And he's justifying it being a violent process. Now th that, that if you like is, is the new strategy that he's putting to the Communist Party and he's saying look, you should recognize this is going on, there is a, there, there is a, a growing class basis to this and we must lead it because it is the way forward. Now he then comes on in the second part of the report to look at the fourteen great achievements and I mean two things A what are those achievements and do those achievements back up and support these kinds of very general maybe propaganda kind of stances that Mao is taking up in the first part of this report. Er Well I can tell you, I can tell you th the first part, erm about what the fourteen great achievements are, erm and only then could I, could I sort of try and answer Right. the second question. Before you er c can we sort of stay with this for another ten minutes or so Erm still with the S s so, so it's okay? Mm yeah. I just, you know, some meant to be meeting at five past one Right. Sure. Well do you wanna start then before you go. Oh no I'm not gonna go I'm er just gonna Okay. Carry on. Mm. Carry on. Well would you like to know what the fourteen great achievements are then? Yeah. Erm well I think it probably most important I think. Erm I mean he starts by erm you've got, he stresses that these fourteen great achievements are to the credit of the peasants and no one else really. Erm and he said that erm many people have peasant, these peasant associations er but peasants organized themselves into peasant associations erm and there are four grades of peasant associations as he sees them. One is nearly all peasants are organized, the second one is the small sections remain unorganized, er the third type is bulk of peasants remain unorganized and er the fourth type is completely unorganized. Erm I'm not quite sure if he gives any detail on sort of no, he doesn't. Er erm and again I have prob I, I do have an actual problem with this, this two million by January Yes tha that's right Nick,th there is a, there's a big problem with that. Yeah. Yeah. Erm and then once they've organized themselves into these associations their first er job should be, or was perhaps, I'm not he's talking about what has actually happened I suppose Mm. er I mean I have a bit of a problem with him sort of going in and identifying all these fourteen ten tenets if you like of er what er the peasants have actually done because I don't think But this is the point revolution has already happened, I mean according to this the, the landlord's political power's been smashed Yeah. and I mean this hasn't happened Yeah. there's a But he's saying it's happened. He's saying it's happened but I mean Wh whether it's happened I think is another matter, this is what he's saying. Mm. Oh yeah, okay. Right okay what he is saying is erm that first of all the peasants hit the landlords politically erm and the first thing they wanted to do was smash the political prestige and power of the landlord class erm without victory in this struggle no victory is possible in the economic struggle to reduce rent and interest er to secure land and other factors of production. Erm there are methods of doing this nine in total er ranging from er checking the accounts of the landlords who ran sort of pr who collected public money erm to imposing fines er I don't know all this,contribution, minor protests, major protests which apparently involved a crowd of fifteen thousand er rallying to demonstrate against the local tyrant the gentry erm and then they'd often crown the landlord villages They can wear silly hats say that erm at least one hundred and thirty pigs were killed I, I don't think yeah but I think that overall we could discuss the er purely, well the very irresponsible attitude of these peasants towards factors of production and were they not rebelling against this sort of commercialization that they saw going on in erm and think that well if we can, you know, if we can somehow stop this commercialization perhaps then er, then we'll all get back to where we are and you're the expert on commercialization Rick, so if you'd like to er I'd rather the fourteen great achievements than Well okay. Well after they've crowned the landlords they could lock up the landlords er and perhaps even banish them. Erm or, or execute them, that's the last straw apparently. Erm the third they did Yeah? was er hit the landlords economically erm and this is, this is quite interesting sort of prohibition erm sort of stopping the grain exports from a particular area to er bring down grain prices and er secure grain for the peasants themselves. Erm prohibit er increase in rents and deposits er prohibition on cancelling of tenancies and er a reduction of interest, which all seems to me fairly restorationist really Right. Yeah. er not really looking for a revolution, just looking back to where you were before Right. erm try and get on Yeah. You're on a roll. Erm having said that though I think that erm perhaps the next few great achievements were perhaps more revolutionary, really, erm because they were s now, he's now talking about overthrowing erm the feudal rule of local tyrants erm overthrowing the armed forces of the landlords, overthrowing the political power of the county magistrate and ov this one's possibly the most important anti-revolution restorationist one I think probably, the overthrowing of clan authority of the ancestral temples and the clan elders. Erm I suppose we could talk about that highlights that a man in China is subjected to domination of three systems of authority, er the state system er which is political authority, the clan system, the clan authority erm ranging from the ancestral temple down to the head of household, and a supernatural system which is erm religious authority. Erm and he then saw that the political authority of the landlords as the backbone of all the other systems of authority. Erm and if that overturned the cla class authority, the clan authority, religious authority and the authority of the husband all began to totter. Right. Right so erm, okay so we'll look at the clan authority. Erm so something erm I mean it, it just seems strange to me that, you know, something which has exist existed for thousands of years, you know, he's suddenly sort of pooh-poohing so to speak, erm and I mean obviously the fact that there was a revolution twenty years later or whatever erm me means that something must have been wrong but erm you know i it's strange how he's suddenly criticizing and how the criticism hasn't come before, how nothing's happened before, how this seems an opportune moment for it to happen. Erm so anyway the fact that it did happen obviously means that something's wrong even though I'll argue that it didn't seem as bad as he was presenting. Erm he, he then goes on basically erm to talk about spreading political propaganda which was obviously very important to his cause erm an and he was saying that basically, you know, suddenly with the rise of er peasant associations erm everyone would, would say down with imperialism, down with the warlords, down with the corrupt officials erm, you know, and that these, you know, basically he, he's then highlighting the fact that these political slogans have, have found erm have found, you know you know er importance with the, with the young the middle aged an and the old but basically obviously he's, he's trying to target the school because that's where he's hoping where the re revolution'll start. And I mean er er you could argue that you know, because he's er erm you know targeting the young and people who are at school in particular, the fact that, you know, if he's successful in targeting those, then by nineteen forty nine those school children will be sort of will be the, the peasants, will be farmers and therefore will be more willing, you know, having been indoctrinated by his thoughts er or, or by the communist way of thinking, then erm for the revolution. Erm so, so I mean and then, you know, he describes various examples where you know if you get hit by your best mate you basically, you know, instead of telling him to F off you say down with imperialism type of thing. you know it seems remarkable but there you go. Erm he, he then obviously goes on to erm to erm talk about peasant bans and prohibitions erm and for some incredible reason the peasants suddenly take a disliking to gaming, gambling and opium smoking, three things that I couldn't think of anything I'd like to do more, erm but, but you know, the peasants rise up in peasant associations and decide that these things are bad, erm and they've got, you know they don't want to do them any more. Erm gaming in case anyone doesn't know is basically you know when they play ma mah-jongg and Mah-jongg. play mah-jongg and drink coffee and play dominoes and card games erm those, those, those three are absolutely all the basic things in Chinese culture aren't they? Yeah so it's a revolt against sort of social Yeah. Which, which is why it seems to me, I don't know, you know sli slightly, slightly far farfetched in a way Yes but still you can revolt against something that you like doing. Yeah. I mean if I was a peasant and someone told me to give up drinking then I'd,you know I wouldn't be very happy about it obviously think this is the right way to do it erm so, so I think free beer on the other hand so, so he, he makes quite a big point out of that, you know er that, and then he obviously talks about other things, the flour drum erm you know which basically vulgar performances of in public places, sedan chairs, don't carry them erm but no and then he goes on to he, he, he lists er a wide range of things that basically you know should be banned or, or basically erm sh should be sort of cut down upon. Erm I, I won't go into them because you know basically erm I think the three main ones reflect the fact that he's saying the peasants are rising up and they're not only changing their political views erm but are obviously changing their cultural values as well according to, to, according to what he suggests. Erm he then goes on to talk about erm eliminating banditry erm wh which basically erm where the peasant associations are powerful enough erm, you know, where the people rise up bandi bandits don't exist because the people have risen up and you know are, are, are strong enough because they've got swords, because they've got spears, they've joined together to, to get rid of the bandits. Erm and he's saying obviously that's a good thing and I'd agree with him there. Erm it's quite important from the next thing that he talks about is er ex abolishing exorbitant levies, obviously he says as the country is not yet unified and the authority of the imperialist and the warlords have not been overthrown there is as yet no way of removing the heavy burden of government taxes and levies on the peasants. Erm however he's saying that you know where, where there is erm you know,pe peasant erm associations basically that they are trying to, you know, get together, club together and make sure that say the surcharge of, of each of land erm is at least being re reduced or abolished. Yeah he's, he's saying how the exorbitant levies imposed on peasants should be removed. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Erm okay. Erm and then he's talking, he's going on to education which er obviously at this time he would think is very important erm because that's how he would start the revolution, you know,i in the first place. Erm and he's saying that you know to start with basically education has always been the preserve of the landlords, er the peasants haven't had anything to do with education, have always been poor illiterate peasants erm and now he's saying that because the landlords have been overthrown erm suddenly peasants er have, you know, are forming erm schools and have been able to be taught various things. Erm and, and these Doesn't he say something about there's gonna be ten thousand small schools in a few years and erm Yeah and I mean that's absolute bull but er well in my opinion Nice idea though. But a nice idea, yeah, he's saying before long tens of thousands of schools will have sprung up in the villages throughout the province erm and that, that basically the peasants like the old style schools which is basically a Chinese way of teaching as opposed to erm the education which the landlords received which is the foreign school and he's saying how when he was a student erm you know he used to think that the foreign style schools were groovy er but has now realized that actually, you know, being, I mean being a man of the people that that's not the way forward and erm but you know I mean basically you've gotta go back to basics. Erm but he, I mean I think that's quite an important It's a familiar ideology isn't it? Erm you know but he's saying the developments of the peasant movement has resulted in the rapid rise in their cultural level erm you know so on the one hand he's, I mean in a way he's, he's trying to re-educate the whole peasant class erm and, and change their way of thinking which previously has obviously been going on, you know, since Confucian Mm. Confucians ideas were founded. Erm so I think it's important to realize as I said before with er with you know with the ma mah-jongg or whatever and opium smoking, you know that he's, it's not just a political struggle that he's Yeah. that he's talking about it's also a cultural struggle. yeah. Erm he's saying that the way forward is through the cooperative movement erm and this, this again is, ties in with the fact that you've got peasant associations erm and that you're gonna be, that, that the average peasant's gonna be a lot stronger in the cooperative moment system. Erm you know he, he's, and here he decides basically marketing and credit cooperatives, he talks this but obviously you know everyone gets together This is basically er what was saying about self help wasn't it? Mm. Yeah. Yeah. Well I dunno, I suppose yes. I'll agree with you. Erm and you know er you know they were, he's saying when the landlords deliberately stopped lending there were many attempts by the peasants to organize credit agencies. Erm well okay fair enough you know,bu but there was, obviously there seemed to be an effort for, for, for them to get together. He then goes on erm going on from that, going on from say commercialization, increased commercialization erm that there's an effort to build more roads and repairing and that basically there seems to be a picture that the peasants are getting together to try and improve their own lot. Mm. Erm you know, and these achievements, he's not saying that you know re rev revolution's the way forward, he's actually saying look what's happened before under the system that existed er previously, er well it actually existed, you know, at the time he was talking about, there does seem to be an effort by the peasants erm you know to, to improve their lot and therefore wha while he cites revolution in a way you, you can argue it is a bit strange because they seem to be, according to him, have improved their lot under the system that was there in the first place, erm I is this a, it's a that's a sort of collectivist thought isn't it? Is, is he putting forward a collectivist idea? He well the idea seems to be er er coming in at the end doesn't it? It's, yeah, but I mean th th you're right,th th th ideas of cooperatives, of, of Mm. er of, of collective labour to build roads etcetera, which is gonna be a feature going all the way through, is, is there really quite this Yeah. early stage. Yeah. Yeah. But if you put all of these together, do they amount to anything more than a restorationist position? Yes. Erm I don't know Sort of restoration with knobs on Right. who actually Yeah. sort of improve But I mean i i certainly if you go through the, the early bits erm I mean i i i if you take well okay the, the organization bit to begin with, but then hitting the landlords politically er you know y you're, you're checking their accounts, you're imposing their fines when they've been a bit naughty, you're letting contributions erm you're crowning them and going through the streets, you're locking them up, you're banishing some of them, you might be executing some of them but i it's, it's only specifically where they've offended against your, your view of the moral economy, where they, where they've sort of been naughty in terms of Yeah. And, and the same is true with, with the economic bit, that they are there's a prohibition on sending grain out to the market, out of the area because that will help the peasantry within the area y your prohibition on increasing rents and deposits, agitating for, for reduced rents and deposits, prohibition on cancelling tenancies reduction of interest, it, it, it's the cl it's the classic restorationist position isn't it? It is but I mean if you look at point four, overthrowing the feudal rule of the Oh yeah. tyrants, I mean that is that is more than that, he's saying that, that y the, the power base at the two level er two I think the local one, jurisdiction,weal people in control, they have got to be overthrown, now that I think is revolutionary. So i i i it's it's, politically it is more revolutionary than economically? Yeah. But economically it is restorationist. I i it's a means of making the system work. Mm. But i if you s looked at all those points and you, you know, you say the er capping of er of increases and so and so could that be construed as a sort of a, a stage towards collectivization? Well I mean does er are they doing that I'm not sure consciously. But they, yeah, I mean there's, there's something in that. But, but take er look they, if you look at the terminology here and if, if you take your, okay your point four, overthrowing the feudal rule of the local tyrants and evil gentry. Tyrants evil gentry are legitimate targets for their restorationist view. Th er it's not overthrowing the gentry there is very little about the landlords themselves. I it's only,th the attacks were against those people who abused the system not the system. And, and s something perhaps this is the spreading of political propaganda Yeah. this point eight, and it's down with imperialism, down with the warlords Yeah. down with the corrupt officials Right. and down with the local tyrants, it's down with the system as it stands or Right. And it's i it's e exactly, I mean it's not down with landlords. No. I mean I, I dunno I think in in this point four he's ta he's not talking about landlords he's talking about the tyrants and gentry Yes. he's ta talking about specific But it's always evil gentry. Yes, and he's trying to sort of to put a erm a picture in your mind of, of these er er specific things and here is one, here is one, they're not all like that, however I think th this may be a very good way of er of getting the whole lot overthrown, he may be erm I mean how do you, how do you define these things? I mean people are Well always gonna see, to feel as if they're being Yes. feel as if they're being extorted and they will look to them and say well this is obviously the, the case whether this particular guy who is, who is our erm leader is, is erm Yeah but you'd know, you'd just know if there's like six or seven tyrant, tyrants in the local district or whatever and you'd go after them. And the point is that if they then change Yes. to being erm being nice to you or whatever then you don't go after them, it's no longer revolutionary, you're not out to get them you're just out to make sh get the local tyrants and the evil gentry. But I think, I mean they seem, these people had a, a jurisdiction of between ten to fifty si fifty or sixty thousand people, now so th th he's, Mao's saying that not all of them are, are evil, not all of them are, it's only some who are but I think every sixty thousand more than likely are gonna look at theirs as being the evil one, that they are going to want to, to overthrow. Yeah. Or er Can can I just say that I think it's interesting that Mao's sort of targeting the local tyrants and the erm the evil gentry I mean because you could, you could ar argue that basically the landlords are only trying to get a return erm which is, which is equal to what they can get if they invest all their money in or you know erm or whatever or big cities Mm. so they weren't actually, what Mao is saying is exploitation is not actually exploitation it's just the landlor landlords working in an economic way. Erm but, but they're an easy target to go for as opposed to, I mean Mao could e perhaps as easily as argued, saying you know commercialization is not the way forward, erm and we don't want greater interaction with the world economy erm as opposed to saying, you know, overthrow the local landlords. Right. But Erm but he's not saying overthrow the landlords. Well he's, he's sort of blaming, blaming the peasant, you know, the peasant situation on the local landlords. O on, on tyrants and evil gentry. Yes. He surely er from his point of view all landlords just by the fact that they own the land, they're gonna be er Landlords, yeah. No he, he's gonna see them all as being evil from his own political ideology. Ah But i i i i if you define all landlords by definition as evil Yeah. but that's the reason I I don't think he's doing that. Er er I get er er I think he's being very clever here so that he's gonna, if any peasants were to read this which is debatable but Right. erm he would get, he would get a lot of support because it is, it can be read as r as being restorationist but mm. I ca I mean Yeah I think he's dressing up a revolution Yeah. in er restorationist terms From his Marxist standpoint Or, or i or is he? Or is it something slightly different that, that er er the actions of the peasantry I think are la are very largely restorationist but in the process they are actually going further that,th th that they have challenged that that th th they've done more than just want to put some of the rights wrong, that they are actually beginning to challenge the system Mm. and they are beginning to put a new system in its place so that it, it is beginning to be revolutionary a an and restorat a restorationist approach can lead on to revolution. They are beginning to take the law themselves Right. in But, but in a political sense, not an economic sense. I E Yeah. i it's not being done through okay let's seize land, let's redistribute land and then we'll do it's the reverse. Y you make this political challenge and this sort of cultural attitude sort of challenges and then you will come on, and Mao's very precise about this, it's the political change that comes first Mm. and then you can get the economic change. I, I mean er yes as soon as, when you start making political change I think that's revolution really, I mean you're, you're not Yeah. when you're putting your own people into or taking the power away Right. that acts as a sort of Right. But but change of a system. Yeah. do they see it as that? Well this is it. I mean he's trying to put it all in a very restorationist point of view Well I don't think he is, I think what he's put, what he's describing is a restorationist response initially by the peasantry, all o almost all of these actions could be seen as restorationist, they are an attack on the system not working because of the actions of evil gentry, corrupt bureaucrats, local officials etcetera etcetera So, so they could be seen as restorationist but he's making restorationist into a revolution. Yes. I, I think that's how you can interpret it, I, I don't think he was I don't think he thought in those terms. Er Bu bu bu bu but what, what was happening seemed to me to be consistent with that. Mm. Yeah I, I think So why does he talk about revolution you know on several occasions? B b b because that, that's the way he sees it, he's, he is interpreting all of these things as revolutionary, right, I'm not at all sure if they were. I, I think a lot of it is restorationist. Oh. So it's, it's, it's revolution. Right. Yes. An and he's taking up what might, we might want to or, or what could be portrayed as restorationist as being revolutionary where I, I'm not sure that it fully was a revolution er a and I you see what Mao is saying is that there would have been a class basis for all of this, they were doing it as a class of peasant, they might not have been, they might have been doing it just for restorationist purposes. And this might have got them far enough and therefore they so the movement is, is not gonna go on from there, it's stopped because the peasants have achieved everything they wanted to achieve. And the communi er Mao sees this and, and the communists step in? Right. But it's Well is is it ever gonna stop though? I mean if he's, I mean he, he says or the implication is that it will stop when they get everything they achieve or perhaps they've already got what they set out to Mm. achieve but I don't think they ever will, that I mean once you start you, you Ah well if, if that's right then Mao is right at the beginning where, where he's making his, his sort of extravagant statements about the mighty storm. That's consistent with what he said. The other point might be if you take these fourteen great achievements they are essentially restorationist and to interpret them as being a mighty revolution is fundamentally wrong. And therefore y er in a sense he was, he was acting on the basis of a false premise and therefore the wh sort of the whole set of conclusions he draws could've been wrong. And there was no need for a revolution because they'd achieve those fourteen massive achievements. You know why was there a revolution ? Well yes. I mean if, if he's saying that these were amazing things and they They were. improved the peasants' lot then, you know, why did the peasants because surely w once you've started that political process it's, it goes on. I mean overthrow local tyrants, take the armed forces from the landlords, it's not, you'd think they'd all, they can't defend themselves now,we might as well have a go. Mm. Bu bu bu yeah but they can stay as being landlords. Th there's no challenge here to landlords per se. No but you're taking their power away and you're making them defenceless. Oh yeah absol you take the political power away so that they will have to reduce their rents and do all of that but you're not challenging the landlord system. But you're taking, you're n you're not immediately challenging the system but you've taken their armed forces away Yeah. as well so they Right. are vulnerable. I think Right. it wouldn't be more than about twenty minutes before the lan the peasants would've thought well maybe Okay, yeah. Yes. But i it, it's interesting though there is no statement whatsoever in the report that land redistribution is taking place. N no nothing about taking lands away from landlords, confiscation He doesn't wanna frighten them you see Right. at this early stage you know. Who doesn't he want to frighten? What, the people The landlords. Yes. Or, or No bu but, but Mao's er analogy is that you, you shouldn't drain the pond to catch the fish. Right. I'd love to tell this last one Right, right. Erm he, he's saying, he's saying here that basically Chiang Kai-Shek erm and all the people of have s have talked about the fact that erm, you know, they wa they want to arouse the masses of the people but then that they're gonna be scared to death when the masses do rise. What difference is there between this and 's love of the dragons? explain that story at the end, was so fond of dragons that he adorned with drawings and carvings of them but when a real dragon heard of his infatuation he was frightened out of his wits. Then comrade Mao Tse- tung uses his me this metaphor to show that though ka Chiang Kai-Shek and his like talked about revolution, they were afraid of revolution and against it. I just wanted to end on that bit. story about Okay. Well I think we should end on that Er possible to do an essay on Yeah. Welcome back. All week Elton John made his various entrances and exits from the High Court, where he was honest about his addictions to drink, drugs and binge eating. He left with his head held high, but what did he have on his head? Should men fight nature with wigs and hair-weaves, or is bald best? Well with us we have some gentlemen who believe that bald is not best, and We do. some people who think that maybe they're wrong. Barbara , you wrote an article in the Times about all of this, you've been following Elton John's comings and goings in the court, what did you think Ha of his new appearance? I just thought poor guy, I mean he was somebody who thought he'd overcome food addiction, drink addiction, drugs addiction and he looks like a spider. I thought it was really very funny, this long straggly black hair, he looked absolutely miserable, he thought he was now spiritually calm and spiritually sane and he's got this peculiar thing on his head that makes him look so daft. Nobody's told him obviously. Well listen, is it is it just hairpieces that look funny you've got something against, or have you got something against all sorts of things that men put on their heads? We er I think I have. I mean it is if they look funny I feel that they're sadder, if you can't tell then that's you know jolly good luck I suppose except that somebody knows. They know. Elton Elton looks like Ronnie Corbett in drag in that wig. the funny thing is that if if you know that what you've got on your head is something acrylic, then you can't feel all that good about yourself. Well listen, let me i let me introduce you to now who shall we pick, Tony, first of all what have you got to say to it,sitting there in your then do I call it a toupee or a wig or Call it what you like, call it a cat if you want, I mean I don't mind I like pussy on the head . It probably was I think it's actually it's been made from cubic hair er pubic hair sorry. Come on. And er I feel I've been wearing one for about twenty five years and I feel a lot better, I feel I feel as if I look good in a wig. And without one I'd Excuse me, me Why are you all laughing? Excuse me, what can you wear to improve your face? I wore it for one year and that Come on Alan, Alan was the worst year of my life. Come on come on you said you said it's the worst year of your life the w year you wear a toupee, why? Why, because I I felt it wasn't me. I was an artificial thing walking around, I was scared, I was scared of I wanted to see the real me, the real me. And that's me without it . Listen listen has he got artificial teeth? Have you got your own teeth? Yes And they're all mine and they're real. Lance, Lance, Lance, Lance why do you wear yours? Because I don't like bald heads. If you see for yourself, have a look at 'em. Alan, alan bald is not er alan bald is not necessarily beautiful, haven't you ever thought of covering it up? No not really. See this man here, he he thinks he's comfortable with his wig, but he wears the jacket so we don't even get to look at his hair . Actually, actually I like to you don't say much but when you say it it's nothing. Is there a volume control on that jacket? Turn it down a bit it's a bit loud . Okay John why why why why do you think it's important that you should be allowed to wear a hairpiece if you want? Because I'm emotionally affected by not wearing it. All these people who are applauding,half of them have got their own hair. Yeah. Yeah If they didn't have their own hair they'd kn they'd know the emotional effect of hair loss. Now I I've been selling hairpieces for twenty three years so I'm probably better in a better position than anybody here to explain the emotions of men who're losing their hair. And some of those guys out there, some of them have actually committed suicide. Yeah but my argument is Right? that they shouldn't feel that bad Well your argument is that they shouldn't feel that bad, but they do feel that bad . Well that's because somebody has told them that bald is ugly, bald isn't ugly, it's . I'm sorry my darling, bald is ugly. Calm down guys I want to ask you is is he better with it or without it? Take it off. you might not be better but you're natural. What's the difference Excuse me, excuse me do you wear false teeth? No. How many people in the audience wear false teeth? What's that got to do with it? It's exactly the same thing. Listen this is getting too noisy, one person at a time please. Sh sh. I will answer if you shut up . Hush all of you hush, one at a time. Gentleman here Can I just make a point. Can I make a point. I've had a bald patch for twenty years. It's part of my character, it's who I am and I'm not gonna hide underneath any wig. My friend, if you didn't have hair at the front Would you guys like to look at me and ask a answer a question. Why do you bother? Why not live like nature intended you to? But nature didn't intend intend it. We was born with hair wasn't we? You were born with hair. We weren't though. I was born with this haircut . Okay what what do you think now you're you're you're you're a hairdresser of some standing in London, why do you think that men get so hung up about all of this kind of hair ? Because it's a sign of insecurity Never and if let me finish, if it makes them feel better if you wanna wear a wig or doughnut, you wear one, if you want to stay bald, you stay bald, but whichever way it doesn't interfere with my life, right, so if you want keep a wig on and you feel happy and you feel more of a person, erm then fine. Why do you think it is that people need to do it? Well the thing is that you know erm somebody's got no hair they think, a lot of this the problem revolve round the baldness, and er they haven't come to term with it. So they go and wear one and it makes them feel better for job interview, pulling girls er going to places you know Is is does does it boil down, does it boil down to a lack of security to the fact that ? One at a time. Sorry. Simply to a need. I mean I've had people who can't get work because they look old, right. Yes, yes,now that group have come into me and two weeks after they've worn the hairpiece they've got a job after two and half years of not finding work, so what do you say to that ? Okay. It's not rubbish it's the truth. Joshua . These gentlemen here have got such big mouths it's unbelievable. I wish they'd listen to other people. I've been bald from a very early age, but I happen to be in the hairdressing industry and I travel all over the world teaching. What right does any individual have to tell other people what they should or shouldn't do? Excuse me, Excuse me if you if you used your mouth as well as your brain you'd be better off, the thing is this that quite honestly nobody here has the right, do you like the way that gentleman looks? He likes the way he looks, good luck to him, he wants to wants those boots, great. These guys wanna wear wigs, they feel good with it, let 'em do it, who tells you what you gotta eat, where Talking about talking about life here is someone we all know, here's someone we all know from That's Life. Howard. When did you start going bald? I started losing mine when I was nineteen, and er I must say in answer to that gentleman's Yeah er comment about erm the chap not getting any any work, erm I think I can attribute most of my work to the fact that I do have a bald head. You're in that nice kind of profession where people It c it certainly hasn't been a drawback to me. It hasn't. Tell me did it give you, did you actually just say, I mean nineteen's young Yes. to I mean did did it ever bother you? Well I was a drama student at the time and I suppose erm Yes listen, can you just shut up, one at a time, lady there. Yeah, I wanna know, right, why don't you just you know go bald you know normally, why do you have to hide it? Cos I'm happier with a hairpiece on. Okay listen there's someone over people treat me differently. Yeah but you know Women treat me differently. If a women puts her hair hands through your hair Yeah right and it falls off in the soup it doesn't fall off in the soup, it never falls off, it's only the ones you see on the advertisements that fall off . Can can you can you run your hands these never fall off Can you run your hands through it? Yes, like that, how's that, alright, alright? Listen let me, let me come to David Wilkie. David, David we know you so I'm going swim with it,do everything in it . Ca can you stop talking. Wait . You tell 'em. David, why do you want to grow your hair? I I would be happier having hair, there's no doubt about that. Mm. Erm I started losing my hair at twenty nine Mm, mm. I've come to terms with it, it doesn't bother whether I've got it or not, but to be honest I'd rather have more hair than I do now. And I put it down to having a fairly bad circulation and I'm get getting my circulation back, using a product called and going on this er hair programme and my hair is beginning You're doing it for charity does it I mean is that really the bottom line or would you do you er I'm hoping it works? I'm growing hair for charity but in many respects that's probably an excuse. I'd like my hair to grow back Is it working? and it's beginning to grow back a little bit. The little hair is growing back and er that makes me a happy person . Mm. If it doesn't grow back, I've accepted that it might not, but if it grows back I'll be a very happy man. Okay th You you're the inventor of this system, or the bringer of this system to the wider public should I say, er why is it gonna work? Because we know why people lose their hair. There are a number of reasons why people lose their hair, stress is a very key factor. Genetics means that one may have a propensity to lose one's hair, but And why is why is going upside down for two minutes twice a day gonna make it grow again? It's it's part of a programme, it helps get blood back to the hair fo We've all got all the hair follicles there, what we haven't got is the capillary network feeding those hair follicles . Okay, is it is it is it going to is it going to work? Well I mean is is tho though we can see David upside down Okay, erm I'm a littl I'm a little bit I'm a little bit worried about er this er exploitation of people and security because they've got no proven record and no medical evidence, if he was that good this guy will be a millionaire and people will be growing hair all the time, to put somebody on the chair, without knowing if that person's got blood pressure or heart problems, they could suffer from a s a stroke erm have er or be partially paralysed, so I I think I like to see this man here maybe in ten fifteen years time with proper proven er medical evidence . Okay, it's quite a serious point you should answer it. Yeah we have a number of doctors who are part of our distribution er set up, we have people like Brian who's busily growing his hair back, there are medical exclusions for people who can't invert so Okay fine. Do you think it works? Well I c I I've seen so many things over the year I just don't believe it until I actually see it and th literally four weeks ago, I'd just got back from Germany, went on a meeting the following morning and it's that gentleman there, Steve, and h he's got some pictures in his pocket which will prove exactly what we're talking about. Because when this guy put his head down, I just did not believe that that was You've grown your hair doing this? am growing my hair that had happened. Proof of the pudding. Seeing's believing . we we don't happen to have the picture of you before, so I've no way of knowing, I do well I can't put it up, we do? Yeah. Okay, there you go We who can see it, who can see this picture? You need some glasses as well then. You got it? Would you bother, editor of Penthouse here, I mean I don't know why, I don't know why I should think you know what women want, I guess you know what men want? I spend I spend a lot of time with them so I spend a lot talking to them . Do you do you think that women actually mind whether chaps are bald or not? I don' think er that women mind at all, I don't think that that people in general really take that much notice of it, I mean I personally er have no objection or would not try and dissuade these gentlemen from wearing these things, but I personally would never wear one, and one of the reasons I would never wear one is apart from maybe two cases there you can always tell, and I think the thing is that when I would feel very uncomfortable walking down the street and everyo I'd feel that everyone was there going wig, wig and the other thing is, there's a young lady at the back there made a very valid point, er I spend a lot of time with a lot of girls, it's my job, I don't want one of them to run her fingers through my hair and it come away in in her hand you know that's gentleman at the back there. It's it's a misconception. People don't know anything about the things that they're not talking about, you've had no experience of it, you don't know, you know of the bad hairpieces and wigs Yeah any form of hair replacement that you see down the hai down the street, this gentleman here is just anti-hair and the story whether it's your hair up there trying to grow it or whatever. Erm people that haven't experienced it don't know what they're talking about. You don't know, you've passed, you've passed you've passed thank you, it ain't, it's my own. you believe that I'm wearing a hairpiece so you don't know and I I speak for most I wanna answer that because, cos you were sitting over there, I assumed can I finish you were sitting there, I assumed that you did. The fact is that every other gentleman there I can tell it's a hairpiece, yours I couldn't. tell I was wearing a hairpiece? Yes of course, I knew you were wearing The point I really want to make is that if somebody can come up with a hairpiece that really looks real, I think people may consider wearing them John , the best kept secret in show business. It is not. . Twenty five years that man has worn a hairpiece and no one ever knew. Barbara at the end of the day, at the end of the day Lance let me ask Barbara this question, at the end of the day, everyone's been saying if th if they feel good doing it, and it gives them that much confidence and they feel great about it, whatever it looks like, why object? Well you don't object, except you feel really sad for them because everybody's wig . feel sad for me . I'll tell you what it is. You think you look like you've got hair, I think you look like you've got a wig. Now Look when you get as old as me you'll be I'll be glad to have a head like you. It's mine. I shan't see eighty again. I don't mind. I don't mind how Well I want to stay out of that ruddy But Lance if you won't see eighty again, if you won't see eighty again Look if I take my hair off I'm gonna finish up with an old girl with a bloody Zimmer frame. I'll tell the secret, and he's eighty four. Don't you think that at eight at eighty four you'd be like to be chasing the girls with your wig on. Hours of endless fun for you girls out there. His teeth come out, his hair comes off, sex by numbers . The trouble is baldness has got the wrong How old are you now? It's got a bad reputation, we associate it with old age, the truth is, man loses his hair because he's got too much male testosterone and he loses it because he's got a sex drive like a rampant rhino. The truth is ladies you only have to touch a bald man and you light up like Blackpool Tower. That is the truth . Why do you shave your head? Because I was going thin. But why did you shave it? Why did you shave it? Because I didn't want, because I didn't want people laughing at me like everyone's here laughing at you. Gentleman in the audience who looks as though he hasn't got much on top, what did you wanna say? I th I think that's just vanity why they wear it. You know he he's on about, he's on about chasing women, why wear a wig to chase women? Another gentleman in the audience in the blue T shirt. I gotta say that thousands of people wear contact lenses f through vanity and nobody complains about that, and that's more unnatural. Okay. Aren't you aren't you aren't you actually getting bald people a bad name. Isn't he Yes. doing more to get people to be proud of being bald than you are ? shaved his hair off. Now if he didn't shave his hair off and he was walking around with a rim round the side of his head I'd say maybe you're right. But he's shaved his hair off so he looks better, he thinks he looks like Yul Brynner. Right? And that's why he's done it. Can I just ask you a question Sue. Anyth anything you've heard Barbara change your mind? I wanna ask you a question. I want to ask why you thi why you feel better with people knowing you're wearing a wig They don't know I'm wearing a wig Oh gentleman, gentleman up here what do you think? If a person Wait. If a person wants to wear a wig and erm you know you should feel comfortable with or without a wig, doesn't really matter does it? You don't have this problem do you? Obviously not no. That's great, thank you all very much indeed, thank you . Well that's it for this week. Er let's have a look at what we've got here on our cards. The doctor who was advertising himself this is Mr from Northfield, the doctor who was advertising the cure for baldness is going bald himself, so obviously the cure isn't working. from Birmingham says hanging upside down has always been known as a cure in the Far East and it does work. Alan from Derby says, I wonder why wearing a wig is any worse than a woman wearing make-up. And Tony from Telford says, I spent years combing my hair over my bald patch, it stopped four months ago and I'm much much happier. So that's it for this week, sorry we didn't have room for our promised body building item, I've been told to work on my pecs before we get back to it and er it shouldn't take too long. Next Friday, we'll do our level best to keep er our hair on during another live edition of Central Weekend. May I wish you goodnight. Goodnight. third nineteen eighty nine, this is Margaret with Jo Ellen in the home of Nan , Glasgow. Well when Margaret suggested er doing a project on French polishing, I had to admit that I didn't really know what French polishing was. Er Mhm. could you tell me er Well French polishing is what they term the original polishing of furniture. You know, that was Now that is a mahogany table, now that table is in It's been stripped. Now the first er process after that, it's all sanded down, and then there's a sort of whitening mixture, stooking mixture, is all rubbed into that and you've to wait till it dries. Then that's rubbed up, that's to fill in the grain of the wood. That helps it you don't need so much polish if they use that they they fill that in. Then after that it's all sanded down and it's it's stained after that, it's stained. And then it's sanded down you'd use a terrific amount of sandpaper. It's all sanded down again, then you put your first coat Now you use what you call a rubber which is consists of a piece of cotton wool You know you know, cotton wool Mm. that you use like the chemist. Yes. And a cotton rag over the top of that. And you have er French polish which is shellac Mhm. and methylated spirits. It's diluted with methylated spirits. And it's raw linseed oil, you dip your you have it in a dish and you dip this pad into the into this dish and you put a little drop of raw linseed oil on that, and you work it in and you go round and round in circles and you you know, I mean, and that's left. You maybe turn this table upside down and then you work on the legs. Mhm. The same procedure. And you coat that. Then you leave it and then it's sanded down again and er the same procedure only you use thinner polish you know, you dilute it you make your polish thinner. And you dilute it with more methylated spirits. But you've got to be very very careful because if you use too much methylated spirits, it cuts and takes the polish off. So And you have to don't use too much oil and you use the oil on it you know, and then when you get what we call a good body on it, that's when all the pores is filled up. And then it's sanded down again. Then you do what you call, colour it. Now you've seen different See that see that light part of the wood Mm. there. Well you mix up er you mix up some colours, black and er and black and wh i stuff Bismarck brown which Mix them together and you make a colour to match up the rest and maybe bring in darker streaks and make a pat You know what I mean? Mm. See that would have to be all darkened down that See that light bit of the wood, that's got to be all darkened down and brought up The colours is all sort of you see, matching and that. You know, sort of match That's French polished. Mhm. You can see that's got a there. Mm. It's just polisher he could get a job, see that. So however And then you start you've got to start and use very little polish and very little methylated spirits and what we call to work out the the all that oil has to be lifted out and it's you dra it's you work in circles and work in circles cos that fills in the pores and then near when you're on maybe bout the last th th takes about three or four coats you know, working on it All depends just how how how long it takes to get it filled up. And after your colouring after your colouring you sandpaper it very very f very fine sandpaper. And er you get out give it another coat with a thingummy and then you work straight across straight across and you just gradually add maybe just a wee drop of methylated spirits till you get all that oil and you see it glistening. You know, the oil gets lifted out. You know, and then you leave it It's what they term soft and it's got to be left to sort of harden you know, and then some instances some people prefer a dull polish, they don't like a a very bright and they'll say what they call pumi powdered pumice stone and they put that sprinkle that on, and it's got to be done a certain way with a brush so to not to leave any marks. You know, to brush it and it leaves a very very dull surface. You see lots of er antique dealers and you know, people that you know, there's there's different classes of people that like well what they term, the dull polish. And others like a really brilliant polish you know, they like to see their things shining like a threepenny bit. But er there's quite a lot of it's it's hard work. You know, it really is, it's hard work. But er when just before I left the polishing which was in nineteen thirty eight, er they were bringing in a lot of cellu it's all th a lot of all this modern stuff is what they call cellulose, but I couldn't tell you how it's done, it's done with a spray. I never work because it was a small workshop that I worked in and in the south side where I belonged, there was an awful lot of Polish people and Jews and they had all these wee furniture places and they made up There was quite a community you know, they were had wee workshops and cabinet makers and my boss was a Latvian. And er he was a first class tradesman you know, really really made quite good stuff. And er was very very fussy very very fussy you know. So but What What was the name of the firm? Well he was called Fred you know, German you know, C It's . Yeah you know. Eh er but er he had flown from Latvia. He said that He used to tell me about his country that you know it was taken over by the Russians and then it'd be taken over by the Germans and You know what I mean. And then he he him and his wife fled you know, that would be er er the you know the rising the communist rising you know. They came to Britain penniless. Mm. But he was a first class tradesman. But there was a whole lot, there was an awful lot of Polish community cabi What part That's South side, where ? In the South side. Where? All round about er the Clydeside you know, round about erm Is it . No no er in the Sou the th 's North the It's the South side of the river right enough, but the South side that er I'm talking about is the er round about the Richmond Park and the the you know, facing the the you the other side of the Glasgow Green, Street, along that way and all that area. and all that area. What street was Fred on? He was on the Street. It was that Street then. And er just a small three roomed shop and they had er they had cabinet makers and French polishers you know? But he had worked with a big er in a great big firm and he then he branched out on his own you know. But he was a very very hard worker you know. And er my chum's mother, she was a forewoman French polisher and he asked her to come and er work along with him you know, but it was I mean that was during the depression years, that was in the the twenties right through to the you know the The first bright spot was when the Queen Mary got started it gave people And then of course, just after that, things was beginning to pick up, but it was really preparing for war. That's . But er then of course I got married and I never went to I used to do occasional stuff you know, but I never enjoyed it er Mhm. But there were some like Cathy's er My chum was Cathy and it was her mother and she was a first class French French polisher you know, and her daughter was a French polisher who was a chum of mine and her son was a cabinet maker and er we used to laugh we used to say. different people you say, Oh my, your house must be lovely Mrs . Er you've two French polishers. And she used to say, I had to run and shut all the doors. She says, For the blue bloom. You know the bloom that comes on furniture you know . Is that what you call it, the blue bloom? Blue bloom. Is that an official name? No it's just a sort of you know, you've seen furniture you know that that's sort of damp. It's the atmosphere that causes it you know . Of course. Right. Yes. Yes. Mm. But er you used to say, Oh Mrs , Oh your place must be lovely. She said to run and shut all the doors. She says in case the folk see the blue bloom, because she was out working. Of course. And Cathy was out working and her her her sons was were were all you know what I mean, they were all but e the father wasn't working. He only got started to work just about a couple of years before the war. He was idle for years you know. But it was er you know, it was a lot of wee thriving community you know,ju just wee individual shops you know, but they were nearly all There was an awful lot of Jews that you know, that what you'd term the Gorbels that's I couldn't get the name, the Gorbels area . Aha. The Gorbels area was surrounded with er you know, wee cabinet making shops and all that sort of thing you know. But er is there anything else you would like to know girls? Sure erm it's such an exact craft such and art, how did you how did get into it, how did you Well actually how I got into it was I was idle at the time and er my two chums were French polishers and as I've said and they said, Er now would you like to come in and try it? Well at that particular time on the bureau, the means test was prevalent then and you were getting twelve shillings a week. And I started with twelve shillings a week . Mhm. And my my aunt that I my grandmother that I stayed with, their neighbour down the stair was quite indignant and saying , I'm away to work and she's getting twelve shillings the same. And my aunt said, Well I would prefer her to to if that's what she wants to do and she's gonna learn something that might be a benefit to her later on in life. That's that. So that was er that was how and I was in I was I was at Well I think I was about nineteen er eighteen or nineteen at the time you know . Mm. and then of course er nineteen thirty eight, I got married Mhm. you know. But the boss had actually failed then. He was he was actually Yes. He failed because l all clever tradesmen, they had a drink problem you know, and th this was the you know it was just his business had failed you mean? Yes yes yeah. Business had failed aha. And er there was a great big cabinet making place, along Street. At the at the Gorbels and after I was married During the war there was a terrific fire and he was burned to death in the lift going up to bring the girls down. He went to back to work in the factory in the big cabinet making factory, and there was a fire and he went up to help some of the girls and he was trapped in the lift. Mm. And he was burned to death. You know there was there was quite a there was quite a number of people er lost their lives at that particular time. What year was that? Now it must have been er it was during the war. Now the war was er thirty nine I think it would be er I think it would be about s forty one or forty two. You know, and his his son worked in the same er place. But er there was a lot there was a lot of girls and th I don't know what had what had happened but I mean, that was the worst thing, he'd went up in the lift and there was quite there was some other the rest of the people in the lift er was trapped and was burned to death you know,tragic end. But erm this was at erm you know, he was a very very intelligent man and you know, he could talk on any subject you know, but this is it. That's life you know. So how many years were you a French polisher then? You started in nineteen I would say I would say a a I would say about er eighteen . About er eight years you know. I got married you know. How long did it take you to learn how to do? Well I was thrown in at the deep end Different persons came in maybe if we had a job in a hurry and they would say, Oh you're on at such and such a time at this. But then I got pushed forward you know ? Mm. You started to work on the insides you know the got er th you varnished and sandpapered the insides of wardrobes, that's where you started. Mm. And staining, I know, the dirty you know, the dirty work Mm. and then gradually they would give you a wee bit say maybe the legs or something to do a er polish you know show you how to start you know, how to rubber and how to fold your the cotton wool. fo fold the cotton over the the the cotton wool and how to you know just so much. But er my was a laugh you know she was really good, good te Did she show you most of it? Yes she kept aha she kept y she kept you right. Er aye she she oh aye she we worked t together you know, but Was there Sometimes it was a hunger and a burst you know,jobs come in Mm. and they would be oh you know, waiting but er it was really funny you used to see couples would order a bedroom suite and you see, what do they want They're getting married getting married and they'd they'd be phoning not ready, not ready, not ready. All they need is the bed. All they need is the bed. You know you used to, All they need is the bed. Why are they worried about wardrobes when they're getting married all they need's a bed. But er oh he was an awful man you know. But er it was it's really hard work you know. It sounds like it. And you know when you start on the inside of wardrobes, you're drunk when you come out. Oh I bet. There's the smell of the fumes you know ? And there's an awful lot of polishers take to drinking methylated spirits. You know. There's quite a lot of them that used to drink that. Us the boss used to say, I like the polishers they can just blow their breath spirits . So it wasn't well ventilated? Mm. No you couldn't I mean er at you know the the doors wouldn't be open be I mean you know, you could picture a wardrobe without a door, but you were working you were sandpapering that on the inside and er maybe brushing it up and down and then sandpapering that again and then they had to go over with what we call the rubber. You know, to leave a soft er finish you know. And to m make it smooth on the inside. Cos they're like satin some of those Yes. Yes . Aye . The old ones are. It really is good quality furniture hand finished. Oh aye. Mhm. Mm. What sort of folk bought the furniture? Well er we did er furniture for quite a lot of the well known warehouses. And that in Street, that w they had worked in Now I forget the name of the big firm but they'd come out of one of the big er furniture warehouses and they started up on their own. And er that was the first time I'd ever seen a continental headboard. And they had got this contract for this er this lawyer who there was a great big er case it had run for long enough. Something to do with som something to do with a cotton mill in Paisley and it was s s s W I c just cannae recall what it was but it was a great big trial, there was a And er this this lawyer he had done quite well out of this case but it was a quite That must have been in er about nineteen twenty nineteen thirties about nineteen thirty two. But this was this big case was on you know, and it went on A big lawsuit it went on for quite a while. And the he had er these two men had started up then they started up and i They're still there to You know what i mean, I don't know if there's the same men are there, but 's still up in Street. And they started that and they were sent out to this big villa and er that was the first time I had seen a continental headboard and er we couldn't understand what it was you know. Great big when they you know when they brought it in you know, a great big thing you know and we said, What's this about? Do you know? And er then of course the bed was put in it and then there was you know things as the s pillars at the side. And er we'd done quite a l we'd he'd refurnished his who Th You know they got the contract to furnish the whole house and it was beautiful you know. Very very modern then. And er very very up date. But it was that's what it that's where er you know, there was he had been quite successful in this lawsuit you know, he'd made quite a bit of money. So that was the start of and lots of different And then we used to get er maybe a wee special jobs in for antiques. I we did quite a lot of these er these wee slipper boxes. Antique slipper boxes. And we would polish them so far, then kick them up and down the shop you know, to make them Yeah. battered and you know,. You know. They were rubbed with soot at the edges and to you know, just And then polished up and just to make them look er antique. Even then they were doing that ? Even Aha. That was that was then that wa er I mean people knew that they weren't antiques but they were imitation antiques you know, but they were well made. And then er that's one of t the the boss made that cabinet there er it's got the feet er but and these are what they call astricles These panes of glass are all in er individually you know, they're all put in and to polish these wee astricles oh you you had to be very deli cos they're very thin you know, and you had to flay them and polish and they lay them in the thing and then they they were fitted in and then the glass was The doors were sent to the glaziers Certain amount of polish on them and then the doors were sent to the glazers and then they were finished after that you know. But er Yeah. and then there was another man a way up Street and and he'd made the claw carved the claw and balls. See you can see the claw and balls. They were hand carved you know. Beautiful. Mm. But How long did it take to make erm pieces or like this tale, how long would it take to do ? Well To polish it or to make it ? Oh to to polish it to finish it off . To polish it. Well I would say, I mean you you would be working on that and then be working on something else . Something else. And you would go back to that and you would maybe have um you maybe had you'd maybe have a chest of drawers and the drawers were out and you would be polishing you know, doing so much on them, put them aside and then go back to that. It would take about er it would take about three days like to to really give it and then it would have to lie for a wee while to to harden you know, the polish to harden. But erm French polish is easier than the cellulose polish Mhm. because er I mean you put anything hot down on that and e the tip is if you put anything down hot, you take a rag and a a saucer with some raw linseed oil and you heat the rag and you rub it gently and it brings sometimes you know the the the white marks. Mhm. And sometimes brasso just dipped you know? Mhm. Just brasso er rubbed into it can you know help to lift because there's something in the brasso. But it it it needs the heat to lift the the the white p You've seen the white polish Mhm. stain marks on it. Well now you know. But er There's quite a lot there used to be quite a contingent worked in ships and of course it's all stain work and just sprayed now. You know Oh some beautiful work. You know but er they're really a lot of hard working women you know and er Was it mostly women? Nearly all women? Now there's men French polishers too. There's men. Half and half or er more one than the other? There's more there was more er women French polishers but there there was a quite a there was quite a few men. And then there was different er types of polishing. There was oak and that didn't have as much work as mahogany and then there was er what they call the I don't know whether you'll ever have remembered seeing it but there was a fashion for a while just bef in the thirties what they called limed oak. They're beginning to bring it back in again. That's you open the you know you put a layer of polish on so much and sandpapered it down. Then you put this lime wash and l white like whitening. And you rubbed it into the grain and you sandpapered that and it left white Mm. Have you seen it? I've seen it. Mhm. I didn't know what it was called. That's aha. But er oo er that's what it was called. Er you know the you used a a wire brush to open the pores to rub this into it. But th i i i I was reading somewhere that they're bringing it back in again. Lime wash you know. And er then there was er oak and then there was different kinds of woods that you used to could you know s er imitate, make them look like maybe er er walnut. That's walnut there. That was a wee er that er made that. On the South side. that's a record cabinet. Mm. But er it was made to my uncle's specification like you know just for keeping gra er gramophone records in you know. But er this this is it. Would they have been old fashioned records, the seventy eights? Aye there's er there's one of Caruso's records in there. I've got Caruso. My uncle Alec was he came away from America. He was in America when the world war broke out. Mm. First world war broke out and er he brought The gramophones were just being introduced. I mean America had them you know really And he brought one that er I think one or two Caruso's records. The the great big old fashioned record there. Brought quite a lot of And he brought the gramophone with him you know. And he come over to fight for his country. But er och aye. But th to go back to the the polishing, it really was it was you know, really hard work and But there was a great band of I mean the the used to Different firms that would h have a lot of work on one place and then they would move and then some would go to the shipyards. And there was a lot of work at that particular time in the shipyards. You know for polishers you know, when the boat was Yes. And the though some were would actually go on the boats when after they were launched and finish the polishing you know. But I never ever worked on a boat you know. But er just er just different er Then during the war I I did the some of the er work for the cooperative you know, like fire damage or water damage and that you know. But er I never worked very much after a after I got married. I used to do just occasional jobs you know. And at that particular time there used to be er what do you call it, the fashion was mantlepieces. Oh yes. And that was one of the first jobs I I practically did on my own. Somebody'd asked me and everybody was wanted their er these er imitation fireplaces. You know Mhm. the mantlepiece. It was a wooden and pillars you know this was all down here and this this all'd to be French polished. That was j that was the ne About thirty six thirty seven everybody was wanting their French polished you know. And then pull out tables was in vogue then. And er they were quite tricky to to work with too. And er chairs, there was some factories did nothing else but chairs. You know that er French pol There was er factories away out at that just er that did nothing else but take chair work you know. Mhm. And erm my used to tell me about er when they were serving their time, all the apprentices used to clump their work on a Monday afternoon to go to the panopticon And at that particular time, they had turns on and if they didn't like them they pelted them with tomatoes and oranges and they had a big hook for for pulling them off the stage. Where was this? You know, where the is? Well there's a building just along there, it's it's into er shops now but there was a well it was er er er no Aye aye . He had this erm He was really a you know, he was really a character, one of the Glasgow characters. And he had this theatre the panopticon and er the the apprentices er and the polish the you know the cabinet makers you know, young boys. And the f the the younger apprentices used to plunk on a Monday afternoon and all go along to Street to the this and she says, You didn't need to buy sweeties it was the rails of the gallery were sticking with toffee. was really finny. And she says they you know what I mean, they had a great they really had a good laugh. Would they lose an afternoon's pay? Aha. They weren't paid? They would. No. The the this was just at a just a custom you know. Mhm. Mhm. This is a just a custom you know and they just all skipped er their work and and they had a a right what we call a good tear.. Now the cabinet makers were serving their time, an apprenticeship you say . Aha. Was that a five year apprenticeship? Yes. Be a five year then. And And what about the French polishers, did you call that an apprenticeship too ? Well while you had an apprenticeship you had about four years. Before you were fully fledged . Had four years. Aha. Mm. Had four year and then you you went to a you'd a sort of four year er And after that you could you really were in control of anything. Well you were supposed to be able to you know, be able to take command you know. But into your fifth year and you were supposed to be really you know, fully fledged but I mean you hade about four years to serve. You know but er oh there was a happy bane you know, it was good. There was good company. We had er we were all quite good friends and quite good company you know. But er we enjoyed it and as i say it was just like a family. Yes. So just like a family, would you do anything special, say one of the girls got married or something like that? Er well there was none of them got married during the time that I was there. I mean that er shortly after it Molly was married at er Aye just a just before the war er broke out Molly was married, and Cathy got married during the war and I got ma er no The three of us got married just round about the same time you know. But as I say, the boss had er lost his business by then you know. But erm well you know what I mean th it was it was quite er It was really quite a sort of family atmosphere Mm. I mean, Mrs 's son was a cabinet maker and the boss's son was there and then there was another Paul . . He was a cabinet maker and er then the boss and we just all sort of worked You know sometimes we had a quite a lot of work going and other times we wouldn't have anything and other times you were standing waiting doing nothing, waiting in the job g coming for the cabinet makers who would send through legs, something to get started just as long as we got started to work, maybe it was in a hurry. We just started on different things you know. But er and other times we were just we were working to you know, quite late you know if the there was a special job that had to be out you know. But we did quite a a lot of work for E G in er Street. They were quite a well known er furniture very select furniture dealer you know. Different shops. Nice stuff And we did a lot of bureaus. You know? Like like writing bureaus? Wr writing bureaus and er well th apprentices I was b started on the what they call the pigeon holes. They're they you they're all worked you know sandpapered and polished that's rough, what they call rough work and then you gradually go onto the maybe staining and the just quite a lot of oak and there's quite a lot of mahogany and walnut. And there's then he used to make great big er display cabinets with a cabinet with a full panelled door in the centre and two doors similar what your granny had you know, and er two w like er glass display cabinets in either side. And sometimes a bureau fitted on you know. Whatever was the order. But er then there was others sort of cheap joints you know, they just rushed things up and just a couple of just er When you see some of th You know that goodwill shop that that the thing when you when you see a lot of the things that's supposed to be polished, you know, they're just varnished over. They're not polished You know. Aye they're not really polished. But however I suppose it but it takes it's like everything else but it's a dead it really is a trade er Graham was saying to m to me when I was down in London, he says, It's a pity mum that you couldn't get work you know, I mean, you just didn't have the you know, your age and that to start work down here, he says, there'd be plenty of work for you. You know . Yes, mhm. Plenty skill. Same with sign writers and all these sort of trades, they're all you know they're you know they're lacking a lot in the these things. He says there's stacks of work he says down i in London for people like that you know, that's That are skilled. That're skilled you know. Yes you don't here of many French polishers now. No. Mhm. No. Do you know any? Er no I cannae say that er er There is one I I think there there used to be a a lad up the road there I used to speak to his mother and she said he son was a French polisher. And my neighbour's husband down the stair, he was a first class French polisher. But he died a good about erm eight or nine years ago. And I have some of his polishes. He sent brought his polishes up to me. But they're still waiting on me polishing this Mm. table here. So some of these Graham stripped it down, but some of these days I'll take a daft notion and er three days. For three days. For three days. well what's easier, starting from scratch with a new thing that a cabinet maker has made or re refurbishing work like doing something over that's had marks and stuff? Oh I think er starting fr it's harder work starting Well it's hard work anyway th I mean sometimes er a a job that's been polished before, it's patchy but I mean that's really all stripped down to You know what I mean, it's it's a It's that's all stripped down to Ready for you know back to sort of it's original you know. But i See the likes of that wee there that wee dent in that? Yes. Now do you know how you would fix that? No idea. You would take a wet rag and a file you know, an ordinary file. Heat your file and put your wet rag on that and put the file the hot file you know, just Yes. touch it up and that, the dap and the heat rises the wood. Oh right. That rises the wood that would dry dry that Kicks the dent out. Tha Aha. Just keep at it. Or if it was too deep, you could fill it with wax Mhm. and what they call . That's just something like you know, the the wax for er for s for sealing sealing wax it's something like that. And just you heat it and drip it in. That's if the dent was awful deep. And you just put a drop in there, heated and leave it till it hardens and then sandpaper it down level. You know. That er that brings it up. But er tha this is how the the different things. But er n see that's a water mark there. Well that's been caused with a plant being put down in that now. That'll take more sandpapering there and a bit camouflaging with your you wou use wee tiny tiny brushes. Mhm. What they call colour brushes. You know to bring up the colour. And just bring you know just that sort of to raise that. So it's just like painting. It's a Mm. very artistic Yes. And your your eyesight gets very strained. Yes I'm sure . Aha. Aye very strained with it you know. But er the colouring is really anybody that's really good at the colouring you know what I mean, they could do wonderful things you know, you could make plain wood look like like erm sort of walnut. Mhm. You know they can make the designs with Yes. these wee pencil brushes that colouring in bring out different er sort of, you know, knots and you know they bring in the pencil Yes. marks and just er sort of make them brighter looking and you know, just make them a s a standing point you know. What was your favourite thing to do? What was Er my favourite thing er well I couldn't tell you that. I was always Because I started later i was always very sort of worried in case I wouldn't you know, get the thing right. Er I liked the colouring. Mm. And I liked er the the polishing you know, the what they call building up a body. But I was always you know, always awful tense at er There's a wee there's a wee woodworm there sitting. You mean a live one? Aye. Never. That's . Gosh. No it's it's you wouldn't see it. No. Just er it might of been of course I had plants through there it might have been Mm. Yes yes. Mm. But there's no woodworm there. In that. But it was just a wee just a tiny wee thing there. Mm. And er woodworms are is a rotten thing you know. Mm. It's a rotten er And you can you you know you've to fill all the wee tiny holes. Dab them all with these Rentokil things to kill them. But erm can be a rotten thing to work with. Sometimes i they take the the hole the out and renew it then when it the colouring i that's when your colouring A good colourer is really Mhm. It's like an it's very artistic you know. work hard you know if Mhm. anybody can camouflage and bring up the colouring you know. But er the likes of that See that mahogany band round there. Yes. Well you see, you bring in your dark strokes Of course. Mhm. You know you highlight these lights at you know. Highlight them erm and the likes of these bring them out. You know. See that's these are these are beech legs. They're not mahogany. They're beech. You get to lear know all the woods then. Quite a lot I have . Yes. Some aha . Yes. But sad to say, the forests are getting more depleted there are good woods now you know that er this is it. This is another factor of er the wood you know. Er there er I think anybody would be that's really handy with or that and keen on woodwork, there's quite a lot of old furniture that er they could you know, remake Mhm. With the old type of wood in them you know. But erm it's a it's a game. Yes. Did you ever have commissions say for big houses? Like stately homes that kind of thing? Er well that was about the biggest, that that we worked on and we maybe had er some things for churches. Mm. Er for to you know, different er wee things and er Aye sometimes er different er wee sort of wee tables for churches and Yes. Wee things like that. But I couldn't sa I couldn't say that I ever worked on any of the big No. big houses you know. But er I would I would have liked to have been able to done that you know. But we used to get sent out to after the stuff left out the the shop, we used to have to go maybe touch up anything Mm. that had got marked. Mm. In a lot of the different houses you know. Thing is that the furniture trade was really booming then,begin that was in the thir you know in the th er early thirties that was the Yes. really the turn of the circle. You know the the the furniture trade th the furniture Between the war. Mm. trade was between the wars, things was beginning to pick up. I mean you could get erm a bedroom suite for about twenty pounds then. And a dining room suite er would be about six pounds something like that. Seven or eight pound. That's four chairs and a pull out table and a sideboard. And then of course the there were some a lot of them mass produced then there was the mass producer come in then. They were just sort of as I said, they used this celluloid. Mhm. And the chairs were sprayed and which made them which made things a lot cheaper. You know that people were able to afford this like everything else er mass produced I mean at er that the public get the benefit. Mhm. You know things become cheaper. But erm wardrobes and different furniture and that you know. But this is it. That's life. It's a full circle. But now they're they're gasping for tradesmen now. This is Mhm. the this is the the tragedy of it. But erm this you know. The just wo you would like to see a return but I mean, it's still it would be expensive. Yes. Mhm. You know, to go back to the the way that with the you know what I mean, the the trade. As I say, Well you've you've to spend a lot of time. It's like everything else that's done by hand it's Aha . That's it, time is money. Time and money you know. Why is it called French polishing? I don't know how it came to be, whether it was the the French that really in invented it. I suppose there must have been something associated er you know, the French would proba they were really first in the field with all these sort of Mm. I mean if you listen to the antiques. Yes. Mhm. The the antique show you can se, they can tell you you know, even by the polish. Mhm. And er you know, the different er things they can tell you just how l old a thing th And then I think they were the sort of the fashion Er you know they were first in the fashion trade to introduce these sort of things you know. But it must have been something connected to the the French when the they said it was French polishing. Mhm. But I never ever though very much about it you know, it was just it was just a term. Now this is it. Now you know all about it. Mm. Mhm. It's great. Mm. Thank you. Yes. From my country upbringing I can remember fields of blaggets less common now but I do know of it still being grown in Orkney. It was easier to grow in less fertile soil. Its finer straw is preferable for gloy as straw for the straw blagget stools was called, now called Orkney chairs. And there was grinnets not grown in any great quantity, but derived from the late sown seed oats. Perhaps to make use of the end dregs of a field where turnips had been sown. Still fresh and green at the back end, it could provide a juicy supplement to the diet of a early calving cow, or for the smallholder's animals newly brought in to the byre for the winter. Grinnets would be the forerunner of silage. To turn back the pages to my early memories of harvest time, on the smaller farms is to have opened a book on nostalgia. For in the mind's eye the harvest field is peopled by busy farm folk from the neighbourhood I knew. I can see the horses and even the timorous harvest mice scurrying through a forest of stubble. A sight that might have intrigued Professor . In fine weather it was pleasant to be in the harvest field, but as the season wore on lashings of cold or bleak shafts of wind driven rain made it disagreeable to handle the wet sheaves. Whether gathering after the scythe, or the reaper, or stoking the sheaves, clothes could become sopping wet. Long black shiny oilskins could blow about and still the slanting rain got in. Who said Orkney had horizontal rain? In stooks standing for too long in wet weather, the bottoms of sheaves might become moussed as dampness set in. Sharp corn skegs from the heads of bair could creep irritatingly up the inside of a sleeve, as I well remember. Green seeds of corn were termed corn ends. As some of the old Orkney words and expressions fall in to disuse, links in the valuable heritage that thurls us to our Viking ancestry are broken. They are much more than just quaint old fashioned words. A cold drying wind expressively called a yerdzook dried out stacks that were on the wet side. Straw ropes called symmons unwound from cloothes were tied round about these stacks or screws to protect the sheaves from the gales. Stooks would blow down and be set up to blow over again and wet heavy sheaves might have to be stoked over and over again. Tea and eatables brought in a big Orkney basket to the harvesters and eaten while seated in the lea of the stokes was a special treat. Menfolk lit up stubby pipes and soon the air was full of the pungent smoke of twist tobacco, I think it was probably called X X Boggy Roll, and many a yarn was spoken while they were thus enjoying their break. Well there was men walking through the village erm to stop them for a rest. And he had this two bags of sugar you know one that was and he was gonna light his pipe and he threw us and he couldn't get off and it strangled him. Are there any other stories that you know about Stronsay? Well daddy's one day and he up this big flagstone and it was er topping off a grave and didn't ken what to do so he just put the flagstone back and kept on and the next time he went to he and he it up again and he took up the skull and . And he kept the backbone to it. One of to bring the backbone we've still got it. And I've got a photograph of the as well. Well er there was man walking for the south end of the island to the north end to kept something for his crops. So he was taking bucket to get it. And so he went the north end and got whatever it was he was wanting and on the way back he stopped at farm to watch . So watch them for a while and then he started dancing with them and he dance them all night and he just get in his hand. Then in the morning he thought he'd better be getting back home so he started home and when he got home he discovered it was the harvest time. And he started up in the spring and the bucket he'd been carrying had left a ridge in his hand. And me granny to help me and he was the land nobody could really find that if you came across it one nasty day well you're there and you're kind of stop there if the went away. And that's what I like . There was this story about er the wife that shared their milk with butter. So this other wife tell had to go and steal some milk for the witch's cow. And that night steals some milk and er sure enough it did come and then when the witch woken up in the morning and found out that somebody had been milking the cow she said er whoever stealing the milk will never work for six month. And er if that day that the wife . There's supposed to be a white horse that goes through the square at and er it er supposed to pay this horseman or something but I don't really ken much about it. This man came up to and he heard this chains. Every time he walked that's him come back again and every time he stopped it stopped and this happened a few times and he was very scared and he thought he had better go and see what the noise was and anything well it was just a pet sheep tangled up in its tether. And are there people in class four at Stronsay school who's been looking at some of the legends. Here's Gary . Which is the story that you've been hearing about? Er it's called the cave. And it was an old woman was sitting knitting in when her wool went through a hole in the floor. It was supposed to have gone into a cave that goes right underneath the house Well we've come along the island of Stronsay now and at er the post office called Samson's Lane and name which has always fascinated me really and er the sub-postmaster in charge here is Dennis . The post office itself here is called Samson's Lane, that must cause a lot of interest and people must be interested in getting a post mark from here. Yes we get quite a few inquiries from south and er from enthusiasts that want stamps franking with the Samson Lane stamp. And I suppose over the last twelve month we must have had as many as a dozen of such inquiries wanted their stamp franked. What about the name Samson's Lane what ascertain about its origins. It's always interested me the name you know. As far as I can understand Samson's Lane is from the school down to Samson's Farm and probably part of the road down to . But certainly not towards the the south end of the island. But er I can't say that I know anything more about it actually. So there's no clear indication that Samson ever lived here in that case then ? No. No far from it. Oh it's no been too bad at all I would say since the first of the new year it seems to be improved remarkably. It's been fairly blustery the odd day but there's frost and especially the snow that they've had down further south it seems to be helping us up here I would say and it's with the with the land work especially got the slurry and stuff of that kind. And what about the the size of the farm of the byre what's the acreage of it? Oh well er the size of the home place here about ninety three acre and then we've three of that well that place is for byre but that's about sixty acre, all added together. And on that then er how is the actual work of the farm broken up into acreages for silage or barley or whatever? Oh well we try and keep all the cows mid-fifties as far as the cows goes and we run them all home here. And then we've got the young cattle off to the two places on the other side of the island and then the third place at just last year. It's twenty two acre and we put all of that down to barley for er . And with the fifty five cows and then we buy in some cattle for byre. Usually we oh about mid-sixties or in that direction and er without it we wouldn't have done extra barley. Especially the winter time to finish them off. So it's split up more or less like that with a ninety three acre home producing the silage and keeping the cows and forty of the acre keeping the young cattle some hay off of that and then twenty two acre down to barley. Well we'll go inside the buildings now and have a look er at some of the cattle indoors here. it holds forty four cows. It's two structure house twinned each side obviously in the centre feed passage and they and that's the wall. Head seems to work fairly well it's easily cleaned out easily fed and the cows come to calf we just put them in the pend and after that once they're a reasonable size we put them through into a byre and it easier to work the situation once the calves are a a fair size and pass the stage especially. Would you eventually be having a sloping floor building as well? There were concerns about er that type of building at one time but er d'ya think it is quite suitable for Orkney? I think it works fairly well enough. I can't say I would be just too excited about the prospects of calving goes be a bit kind of sliding each other young calf that's just newly born. Needless to say he might have a tendency to end up doing what he wouldn't want them doing amongst slurry and such like but. I think if you can calf them and then put them onto the floor I think when there are sides that they can feed for themselves more there would be nothing wrong with a floor byre at all really. Well looking at the individual breeds of animals that we've got here, tell us about the basic breed line that you you keep on the farm here. Well for most we try and work a Shorthorn for I think that the Shorthorn and the black bull is the true traditional cattle you know maybe and I don't believe for one minute that the the cattle would be any better if you had a lot of Limousins or something else. And I think that keeping the Orkney old fashioned cow is near to that than crossing with continental. Probably Simmental or Charolais I think that that's the secret to and cattle and our our broad that's marketable especially down I call for the report on the panel on doctrine on page one hundred and eighty five to be presented by Dr Stuart . Dr Moderator I have the honour to present this report on behalf of the panel. Our report this year covers four matters though to the first there's really only passing reference. The working party on the theology of marriage is finding its task stimulating but arduous and it will surprise no one that it's taking a long time. We hope however to report to next year's general assembly. The second matter covered in the report is eligibility for infant baptism. Commissioners will recall that the story here begins with the presbytery of Hamilton's dissatisfaction with the act currently governing eligibility for infant baptism. This is act seventeen, nineteen sixty three which basically requires that parents, one or both, of a child to be baptised be or be prepared to become full communicant members of the church. Hamilton tried to convince the assembly that this act was bad and was being disregarded by many. They also held that where it was observed it was unduly restrictive. The presbytery of Hamilton's proposed solution was a repeal of the nineteen sixty three act and a reversion to the nineteen thirty three act which required from parents only a profession of faith. The assembly of nineteen ninety could not agree on an immediate response to the presbytery of Hamilton's overture and remitted the matter to the panel . The panel brought to last year's assembly a modest am amendment of the nineteen sixty three act which it believed was theologically sound pastorally sensitive and which would provide a degree of flexibility. Our report on this matter was sent to the presbyteries under the act, but it failed to win acceptance. In the comments that came from some sixteen of the presbyteries who were against the amendment, two things are significant as our report points out. The first is the lack of any uniformity in the reactions to our report. This suggests to us that there's probably no advantage to be gained from further tinkering with the law. The second significant thing in the comments is the absence of any desire to follow Hamilton's advice and revert to the nineteen thirty three act. The panel recognizes however that there was substance in the presbytery of Hamilton's claim that the nineteen sixty three law can cause pastoral problems. Ministers can experience difficulty when they find themselves in a situation where refusing the baptism is their only option and parents can take grave offence. We therefore ask the assembly today to authorize the panel to prepare a leaflet explaining the church's position to parents who are not communicant members and who are not willing to become such but who neverth s still which baptism for their child. We have permission to incur the cost of such a leaflet if the assembly approves. The third matter on which we er report is the place and purpose of confirmation. Last year's assembly remitted to us the task of working out the consequences for the service known as confirmation if children are admitted to the sacrament of the lord's supper. After all the title of the service in the book of common order is confirmation held admission to the lord's supper. To be fair to the youth education committee, they had already gone some way in answering the questions raised. For example, they distinguished between a response of faith from a child seeking admission to the lord's supper and a profession of faith. The first, the response of faith from a child, would be identified in private consultation involving minister, parents and child. The second, profession of faith, would, as now, be public and preceded by a course of instruction. The panel has however endeavoured to ref to fulfil its remit by analyzing the whole confirmation service in the book of common order and we come to the conclusion that really the admission of children to the sacrament of the lord's supper would necessitate only minor adjustments to the service as we now know it. That's because admission to the sacrament of the lord's supper is one element only in the service. There are three other elements which have as we say their own very considerable spiritual and liturgical validity, purpose and usefulness. These other ele elements are profession, public profession of faith after instruction in a class prayer for strengthening and commitment to service. Instruction in the faith given in late teens or early twenties is essential, essential for young people, both those who've received communion in earlier years and those who have not. Prayer for strength is appropriate at any stage of our lives and might well be made daily but that does not invalidate the usefulness of marking one day in our life when someone prays over us in public and asks that out of the treasures of his glory, God may grant you strength and power through his spirit in your inner being that through faith cast may dwell in your hearts in love. Commitment offering oneself to the lord in the service of the church and the world is the third and quite prominent element in the service of confirmation as we have it, and as we say in a day when emphasis is being laid on the ministry of the whole people of God there is surely value in a definite act of commitment on a definite day. An a an act of commitment and commissioning to that ministry. All in all therefore, the service would not be noticeably impoverished were the element of admission to the lord's supper to be removed from it, or were adjustments to be necessary to cover, cover some in a class who had communicated in earlier years. Finally this year we report on the statement of Christian faith. In our report tribute is paid to Dr Sheila for her work in collating the results of discussion in forty presbyteries, and four hundred and sixty four kirk sessions. And that tribute is well justified and well deserved. The assembly will note that we propose to drop the commentary which did not prove as useful as we had hoped it might. Happily, happily the statement of faith does seem to have commended itself to a much larger number of presbyteries and kirk sessions and many indeed hundreds hundreds took the trouble to offer amendments and improvements to it. Note has been taken of these and some of them appear in the panel's revision. The interest shown in the chur by the church in the statement of faith emboldens us to ask the assembly to authorize publication of the reworded statement for use in worship and teaching in confirmation classes, study groups and so on. What is envisaged is a simple card and the possibility of inclusion in the new book of common order. Again permission has been given to the panel to incur the expense if the assembly approves the relevant deliverance. It has been gratifying to learn that the panel's work stimulated so much discussion and presbyteries and sessions have been generous in their acknowledgement of this. The panel hopes now that this statement of faith can be seen as a useful and fairly accessible indicator to outsiders as to what the faith is all about, and at the same time as a ring of words which at least the majority of us within the church can happily affirm. Moderator I present the report, and must ask the clerk to move the deliverance as I am the corresponding member. the deliverance. Is it seconded? Thank you. Questions to the convenor. Ian number three two six eh question relating to eh a mention in the report eh in connection with the statement of faith, the panel say in the report on page one eight nine that they recognize the statement does not fully satisfy the concern for a modern confession of faith which was the background to the remit given by the assembly of nineteen eighty six. Eh my question is three parts, does the panel propose to bring er a future er report to an assembly with a relating to this er matter. If so does it actually propose to bring a confession of faith er in modern terms and if so, can the panel give any idea what form that might take. Dr . Moderator that's a helpful question I, I'm sure. But I must er be cagey in my answer to it. I, I think we will see how things go. See how this, if the statement is approved today erm er if the publication of it is, is approved, we'll see how it er is received in the church as a whole, how it used in practice er and we'll have to s see when the time is right to bring forward any confession of faith. As you know there have been the history of it is, is well known to most commissioners I'm sure, there have been m there has been more than one attempt in the recent, in the last decade to bring something to the assembly er along these lines. And there is no doubt that a confession of faith perhaps is, is needed sometimes. We're extraordinarily elusive about what exactly we believe in the Church of Scotland, we say, you know recognizing liberty of opinion always, and such things as do not enter into the substance of the faith, and then we don't say what the substance of the faith is. Er so we are elusive and maybe the time will be, will come when we really must put it all down. But I think we must be given freedom to choose the time and not commit ourselves to any timetable. The statement just as a as a useful instrument will er I hope it will be a useful instrument er is a step in probably the right direction and we just wait and see. Any other questions? Are you accepting questions on the statement of faith at this point? We're taking questions on any aspect of the report from the panel on doctrine. I accept almost entirely the oh two six two. I accept almost entirely the statement of faith except for one phrase accepting that God is love I have difficulty in reconciling he who created the universe, who is love, with the tempest, the earthquake the great white shark and the crocodile. Could the convenor of the panel on doctrine help me with this one. Thank you Moderator. I'm glad I'm Moderator now and no longer a convenor. The panel on doctrine is the fountain of all wisdom of course. The problem of evil I who am I to er start embark on an explanation of the problem of evil and el elements of chaos in the universe? All I can say is that the yes of God's love is stronger than the no of his judgment and that I do believe that despite all the shadows and elements of chaos in the world, in the universe and in life, God's love is stronger and he is a God of love. Any other questions? Sorry? Come moment, thank you. Er four hundred and ninety. Erm would the convenor say erm what he understands from the statement of faith and the statement of faith alone erm to be the teaching on the atonement that is,wh what are we taught about the atonement from the statement of faith? Moderator the beauty of the statement of faith er the beauty of, of a statement of faith that wins support or, or can be accepted as useful in many quarters is that it doesn't er try to be too specific perhaps. And er this has always been the, the marvel of liturgical words, that they they pointed to the truth without being too definitive about the truth. And therefore people with different nuances of opinion could er unite in affirming these words which point to the truth. And so I wouldn't want to be er asked to interpret any one line of this in particular, or to put any particular nuance on it because then you would say aha but that's not what we believe. Er if, if there is a sufficient er indication in these words an indication, a pointer as I say, if there's a transparency in these words which enables us to see through to the truth then our formulation of it doesn't matter all that much. And then as you know, no statement our, our Christian truth can never be encapsulated in any one statement. Another way of putting that is you'll never please everybody but but less superficially it is a fact that Christian truth is not to be equated with our formulations of it and we must always satisfy ourselves with pointers to it. And I think what the questioner was asking for is, is probably adequately covered in the Christological section where we talk of giving hope and declaring forgiveness of sin. And I would not want to be pushed further. Thank you. Question from the young lady. Moderator one five eight. Moderator between the eligibility of infant bap fo infant baptism and the confirmation service I find myself unclear, what do we do with children who are unbaptised say between the ages of three and twelve, whose parents are not ba themselves church members and who are not prepared to take the promises for them? I myself my previous have had this case er where an eight year old wanted baptise and in the event the parent was prepared, though not herself a member of the church, to take the promises. Who takes the promises of a, a child of immature years and yet erm articulate? I, I find I don't know what to do in this situation between the two. Er Moderator I'm sorry I, I've not quite caught the, the question there. Could I be er helped could the, the s speaker just repeat the question? Mrs Thank you. Sorry. Case given, you have a child who to ask for baptism, him or herself. The parents are not church members, the child is not baptised but wants baptised, who makes the promises? And that I have personally already found a problem. If there's a legal question here I'll happily field it to the I if i , if it's a pastoral problem I, I think probably the child er should take er such vows as they can. But I, I place great er importance on the job of the elder. The job of the elder to stand by that child and, and see to its Christian nurture thereafter. And I think we these er Can I ask which promises? Is it the promises merely for baptism or the promises for confirmation in that the child is articulate and intelligent enough to answer? It must surely be the promises for baptism Just for baptism. As far as Which you know as far as they're now admits to the sacrament? Yes. Thank you. Moderator nine hundred and ten, a question concerning the statement of faith. And again perhaps to follow up a previous question and the question is this, that in the first draft of the statement of faith which was presented two years ago, there was a very clear statement which said that Christ died for our sin in connection with the cross and I was wondering what the reasoning was which took away that very specific meaning of the death of the Christ into a much more general and ambiguous one in the statement before us today. Doctor? Er again that's a very specific question to which I can't give a specific answer. You know we have had, as you saw, hundreds and hundreds of amendments and the thing has gone through an enormous process of of er consideration. Erm so I don't honestly remember at what point the line that er Mr Bruce refers to er was removed or was transformed into what we have here. Er it became by his death on the cross and has triumphed over evil. It's a question of we were told always to be brief, it has to be brief, you can't say everything. Erm and again we must rest our case that we've done our best with it. Er the Christ died for our sins, triumphed over evil, is er i is our effort at covering v many aspects of that great event. Moderator, can I ask a second question? If it's in a different subject from what you've asked already. Er no it isn't. Any other questions? Moderator one six nine. I, I have a quandary here cos I'm not quite sure whether I should be asking a question or proposing something against the deliverance but I have attended and er listened to a number of debates arising out of this matter of er the baptism of children and time and again it's struck me that it starts off about baptism but it turns out to be a discussion about the parents. Now I don't detect in the work of the er panel on doctrine up to the present time anything which tackles I'm sorry but I, I want to be fair to everybody, yeah and I also want to be fair to the debate that's still to come later this afternoon, but I've called for questions and I'd like everybody to start their statement with the question which they're going to put to the convenor. It gives him Well it gives him, in fairness, time to think out the answer rather than hearing the question at the very end. And therefore I'd like everybody to well the preface their statement with a question. There's ample opportunity in the debate to make contributions. just questions. The question is this Moderator Thank you. erm has the panel on doctrine really tackled the question per se what is the theological position of children from their birth onwards, and put that in a concrete, orderly statement, or are they intending to do so? We, we believe Moderator that the statement in last year's blue book did really cover that pretty adequately, that's our response to Mr . Any other questions? I then move to the deliverances on page one hundred and eighty five. Number one approved. Of course, certainly. Bishop of Newcastle. Moderator I, one two eight six , I wondered whether a word from south of the border might be in order because in recent years in the Church of England we've been busy discussing the theological foundations and the practical discipline in respect of several matters which fall under the general heading of Christian initiation and indeed we have been experimenting a bit here and there. Erm and these matters relate to sections two and three of the panel's report and indeed to yesterday's debate. There are three points which I should wish to make. First with regard to infant baptism and its general availability. Our general synod has been reminded of two thorough reports produced by the Church of Scotland on the subject of baptism in I think nineteen fifty five and nineteen sixty two with their clear emphasis are that the person of Christ and the work of Christ are central to the understanding of baptism. Indeed the covenant is important but it is Christ who holds the key to the understanding of baptism and I thought that you would like to hear how your work has helped us to see our way in this respect. And then second er the meaning and practice of confirmation has been much debated among us. There's an ecumenical consensus nowadays surely that it is by faith and baptism that one is made a Christian or becomes a Christian and we've also inherited, many of us, another rite, with its origins in the New Testament, valuable in the making of a christian and the three strands in confirmation set out in the report before us would certainly be owned by all of us. But our house of bishops has decided that we should adhere to the order traditional for us, of baptism, of confirmation, first communion, and our general synod has endorsed this decision. We treasure confirmation and we fear that any alteration in the pattern might lead to confirmation ceasing to be observed. And we also had a fear that, with different disciplines and different dioceses and parishes, that could be a recipe for chaos and confusion. There will therefore be no further experimental schemes in dioceses and parishes whereby children are admitted to communion before confirmation. The bishops will be prepared to confirm children at a rather younger age so that they may be admitted earlier to the communicant life. As a consequence, the note of lifelong commitment will be less prominent in the confirmation of these candidates. And this leads to the third point, namely that we have asked for various new rites to be prepared. Rites which can be offered and used when occasion demands. For instance a rite of lifelong commitment for adults or of young people on the verge of adult life who have been confirmed at an earlier age. A rite of reaffirming vows made at baptism and at confirmation, a rite particularly intended for those who have subsequently experienced some sort of dramatic renewal of their Christian life which makes their previous experience of it seem as nothing. And then a rite of reconciliation for those who've lapsed from church membership, or from the practice of their religion, and want to start again in a purposeful manner. I mention this variety of rites, which are in process of preparation, because the main route whereby people are introduced to and grow in the light of the church, baptism as infants, confirmation in early teens, leading to faithful communicant life, that route is no longer followed by quite a number in our fellowship. The scene is much more complex than it was say a generation or two ago and Moderator we in the Church of England should be much interested to learn in due course whether you too will feel a need to make liturgical revision for these various paths to faith. Number one approved. Number two Moderator four five nine Moderator I welcome the number two in the deliverance but I would make a plea to the er panel that this leaflet be a very simple leaflet and it not be brief, but in fact be quite lengthy. My reasons for eh urging the eh panel to do this are that many areas of our church are in deprived areas. Many er areas of our church are in areas where the education, educational standards are not as high in other areas, and a lot of the leaflets that we bring out are quite er unable to be understood by many people in these areas. So I am pleading that the panel really take a great deal of effort in this leaflet so that it is going to be easily understood by even the people who are less well educated than some of us. For instance most of this debate would not have been understood by many people in my parish. And I would urge the panel to send out their proposed leaflet to the ministers in various areas where the educational standards are not very high that they may look at them and put forward suggestions so that the leaflet that eventually comes out will be understood by the whole of our people and not just by the most educated. Thank you Moderator. Mr Moderator two seven eight. Moderator I have a counter motion to deliverance two in the following terms. Instruct the panel on doctrine and the board of practice and procedure to hold area conferences with presbyteries to see if there is a need for new legislation on eligibility for infant baptism. Moderator I am not convinced that in rejecting the legislation that went down under the Barrier Act, presbyteries were merely endorsing the status quo. I suspect from what I heard in conversation from others in other presbyteries is that many of them were in favour of change, but simply did not feel that what was proposed was an improvement to what we have already. And I fear therefore that we're in precisely the same position as we were when the presbytery of Hamilton brought their overture to us. And because I fear that that is the position, I cannot help but feel that before long we will have yet another attempt to amend Act seventeen, nineteen sixty three and that we will go round the circuit, the same circuit once again with I fear the same result. My hope and at this stage it can only be a hope, is that if consultations are held with presbyteries, a consensus will emerge as to the nature of the changes to Act seventeen that are required and that that consensus will enable the Act to be successfully amended. Moderator I would simply cite as an example of what I have in mind the conferences organized by the assembly council which successfully resolved the problem of necessary buildings. Moderator I move. Mr before we can ask for a seconder on it I'd ask the clerk to make a de definition about expenditure that has not necessarily been costed beforehand. Yes Moderator I think it was Mr who drew my attention yesterday to standing or order nineteen fifty four about new or additional expenditure which says that any proposal which involves new or additional expenditure etcetera must be in the hands of commissioners and printed in proper form. Now the Board of Practice and Procedure has a budget and w which we have already negotiated, and we're hoping to be able to hold our presbytery clerks conference but there is nothing in the budget that could possibly cope with these additional conferences and these would therefore be new and additional expenditure, and this motion cannot therefore be treated as competent. Hoist with one's own petard. You may make a comment Dr . Yes, number two is still before the assembly. Moderator it is said that a passion for consistency is the mark of a small mind which probably explains why I have a passion for consistency. It seems to me that we are inclining to be very inconsistent in regard to two matters which have recently been very much before us. In the, when we dealt with the matter of children and communion, we based the whole case upon the doctrine that nothing must be allowed to stand in the way of the grace of God being available for all and sundry. Nothing must be allowed to stand in the way of that. Children, if they mu must be allowed to come forward and share in that grace at the lord's table and so on. When we come to deal with infant baptism we take the view that the failure of parents to measure up to certain standards is to be allowed to stand in the way of the grace of God being available for their children. This is particularly difficult in view of the fact that it is just their children who are probably far more in need of that grace of God just because of the attitude of their parents, than those of parents who measure up to all the standards that we impose. Now I'm aware that many parents bring their children for baptism from reasons of superstition or custom or anything you like I'm reminded of a certain tax gatherer who, inspired by sheer idle curiosity, climbed a tree curiosity maybe took him up the tree but it was the grace of God that brought him down. And I care not what may be the motive of the parents who bring their children and want them offered to Christ in the sacrament of baptism it is the grace of God that is available for them there and I think we should be very thoughtful about these matters and try to take up either one position or the other. Either the grace should be available to all or there should be a right to impose restrictions. Thank you. this gentleman, thank you. one six one six seven. Erm it's with a view to in fact er Dr 's point that I want to speak. Erm this whole problem does give ministers erm a great deal of tension and heart searching erm and er we're in the throws of, of, of looking for a leaflet that's gonna help ministers faced with er parents who come and have to be turned away because we feel embarrassed, we feel erm the weight of our, our turning away people and our inability to minister the grace of God to them, although I'd of thought gravity of but er anyway erm er but we have this problem and erm it seems to me that one way out of it is to pick up on what our brother from the Church of England said and look at new rites, and new ways in which we can open our arms to a public out there which is desperately in need of rites of passage. And the only erm body with any integrity and any standing in the eyes of the people of Scotland is the Church of Scotland. We have the rites of passage and the public out there, whether they are pagan, agnostic, unbelieving or Christian, want rites of passage. Unfortunately our rites of passage are specifically designated for Christians and that is quite clear. And you look at the er the preamble in the, in the order er the book of common order for baptism and it is designated for Christian people, that particular rite of passage. The rite of passage of marriage is not, interestingly enough, if one looks at it carefully but baptism certainly is. Erm and er what I would like to see, and I've long wanted to see this coming out of the church, is a rite of passage that I with integrity can offer to any parents who come to me with a, a, a lovely little baby in their arms saying to me parish minister can you give us something that would satisfy us, and they're not saying it like this, but they want a rite of passage. I would erm love to be able to offer them something that had the sanction of the whole church and the weight of the church behind it erm which could satisfy the longing for me to do this. Erm and I would see that in terms of a service of thanksgiving, some kind of service of thanksgiving where I could pray with them, we could pray for the child in their arms in the face of the congregation and ask God's blessing on the life of that child and see that as a celebration of thanksgiving and a, a prayer of blessing for, for that child. And we would not be asking the parents to say things they didn't believe or make promises that they had no intention of fulfilling. Erm and we could offer this to the whole er er t to anyone who came to us and therefore be seen to be a church which was very accepting and outward going and missionary minded because all too often we hear ministers talking about erm using bapti baptism as an evangelical tool er c talk which I greatly resent and resist. So erm the point of my remarks is to, to add to number two the following er the following words erm and urge the panel to bring forward suggestions for a rite celebrating the gift of new birth. And I so move. Is that is that seconded? Thank you. Any discussion on this new er on this amendment? On this addendum? Moderator I tell you what the convenor would say six four O is it for the panel to bring forward a rite or is it for the er committee on worship to bring forward rites? Erm I think we're asking the panel on doctrine to do something that is not really within their remit at the moment. This is not your summing up, this is only answering Mr 's point Dr Er I think Mr is probably right correct er that rites er this is probably a job for the panel on worship. Nevertheless, in case I seem to be just er avoiding the question, er I would have to say that this has been asked for before and we have resisted time and again, that's the history of the matter, on the grounds that what these parents are really asking for is baptism and it's our opportunity to to er, to speak in these terms er and it's a gold golden opportunity if they actually come to us. one O six five. I would resist that addition to the er paragraph in the deliverance. It seems to me that the New Testament says very clearly that many people came to Jesus asking for a sign and he pointed to himself. We are a Christian church and we should be speaking of things of Christ. thank you. seven one seven. Moderator I too would want to resist th th the addendum that has been proposed for number two because it seems to me that we're concerned as a church with the issue of baptism and initiation and we want to keep our mind and our ideas firmly fixed on that however unpleasant and uncomfortable it is. It seems to me that however attractive this addendum is, it's taking us away from the real issue which is about the baptism one which the bishop er also kind of brought up er and which we've been exercising ourselves over. Sadly Mr 's proposal fell on a technicality, but I think he put his finger on something which I felt the assembly was, was responding to, that we are not finished with this issue and although it fell on a technicality about money, perhaps without making any addendums and motions we might er refuse this addendum and keep our minds on the baptism issue and hope that the Board of Practice and Procedure and the panel on doctrine will pick up the substance and the, the essence of what Mr was asking for and pursue this matter until as a church we can get it sorted out to the satisfaction of all the groups within the church. Let's not go go down a side road however, as it were, appealing it may be, let's stick to the main difficult one and keep chewing it until we can get an answer. I hope that, that the assembly will not take this addendum and then I hope the two boards concerned will take on the issue as Mr suggested. Thank you. Er one two three five. I feel that not a enough emphasis has been put on the vows that er parents take and the responsibility the minister has in administering those vows and therefore I support er the new amendment because of this, that it offers er a form of evangelism without the risk of having the parents taking vows that they do not er that they cannot keep. Moderator might I ask a question? I'm sorry but that that lady J A one six one. Erm I would like to formally second Mr because I followed a situation where the previous minister had baptised anyone and when I arrived I discussed with the session what our policy on baptism was and we concurred that we should follow the nineteen sixty three law but apply it under grace and with the spirit of God in mind and we had some very difficult situations when people said to me no I have no time for God in my life but I want you to baptise my baby. And they could not understand why I refused to baptise their baby. We need something else that we can give people that still shows them the love of God. Sh that th the people were willing to make promises that they did not wish to keep that they would not keep and I in all sincerity could not let them do that, and they went away extremely hurt and that particular situation unfortunately became extremely tragic later on. I don't wish that to happen again. Thank you. Mr Moderator might I ask a question er perhaps a supplementary? Is there any reason why the conference which is budgeted for might not be used to reflect the mind of presbyteries on the proposal that Mr was putting forward? And in the event of that answer being yes, will it be done? I think Mr you've anticipated a, a, a a statement that was going to be given shortly by Mr Yes I think so. Er Moderator er there isn't any reason in principle why this sh shouldn't happen that er this subject couldn't come up at the presbytery clerks conference. It has to be said however that the presbytery, presbytery clerks er write their own agenda for these meetings er for these conferences and er it would be up to presbyteries to instruct their clerks that that had to go on their agenda. Mr Mr is a presbytery clerk so I think your point will be well answered. four four seven. Unless I have missed it earlier in this debate, I think there may be a point of clarification which may need to be made er with the result of yesterday's decision, and that is that section two, which we're now discussing, speaks of the position of parents who are not communicant members. Do I take it now to mean that that means parents who have not been baptised? Because it is the grace of baptism administered to an infant which allows them to receive the grace of communion and therefore they are in essential, as well as being universal members of the church, they're membe they're communicant members of the church. And therefore the requirement is simply for a parent asking for baptism for their child to have been baptised. Is that ? Moderator the erm overture which we passed into an act er in the last sentence of section three says the names of such children, that's those children who have been admitted to erm communion as children, shall be admitted to the communion roll of the congregation when they have made public profession of their faith that is, when they reach the point at which they make that normal statement and the my understanding would be people whose names are on the communion roll. Would it be the, the will of the general assembly that we take a vote on the amendment that has been, the addendum that has been made to number two at this stage? Are you withdrawing your addendum then? Moderator er listening er three double three, listening to Mr 's point er about bringing this in in conjunction with the, the section on baptism erm I think we're in agreement that it would be more appropriate to raise this as a new section. Mr you're withdrawing your addendum then to number two? I'm sorry, I'm asking for an answer really, yes or no. Yes, yes And er you can't, I I'm not asking er I can't allow you to again Well I think I, I think I'll stick I'll stick, stick by the issue then yes. You're staying, you're s I, I'll stay with it. Aha You're staying with your addendum. That's fine. Could I Moderator c could I ask, is this really in order? I, I mean should it not belong on the panel on worship? Well this is It, it might, I was going to suggest Moderator that if, if the thing were amended to, to delete the word rite er and, and and perhaps have, you know, the whole issue rather than th the rite it could perhaps go to the, the panel on doctrine and be perfectly in order. Yes Mo Moderator the precise words are ask the panel to bring forward suggestions for a rite celebrating the gift of new birth. Er it is not asking the panel to n you know to draft a rite that would used and I, I would interpret this to mean that it's asking the panel to look up the theological propriety if you like of such a rite and bring forward suggestions which would then be passed for implementation, if so decided, to the panel on worship. I if that is understood and that is accepted that would meet Mr 's point in that it is, it is in fact in order and, and is not interfering with another panel's responsibilities. Therefore I ask the assembly now to vote o sorry, yes Dr you have the right to reply, of course you have. Moderator I, I feel I'd still want to resist this and hope the assembly would not accept it. I think it's significant that on page one eight six of our, of the blue book, we report four sentenc for er lines from the top two presbyteries expressed a desire for the whole practice of infant baptism to be re-examined, only two presbyteries. Er I I I I th I doubt if really we, we need to go into all this matter again. We have really answered these questions in the course of our work and er I think any rite, any consideration of a rite of passage such as was, was er asked for, is in a sense detracting from the significance of holy baptism and I doubt if there's any future in this. Could I then ask the clerk to read the words that have been proposed to be added to number two as it stands on page one eight five. And we are only voting on whether we will accept to add these words or not, we're not voting at this stage on deliverance number two. Moderator to add at the end of er that deliverance these words urge the panel to bring forward suggestions for a rite celebrating the gift of new birth . Those who wish to vote for the addition of these words to deliverance number two would you please stand. Thank you. Those wishing to vote against please stand. I declare it's been carried against and so we come back to deliverance number two as it is in the print. Moderator Yes. one one eight nine. Moderator the convenor in his introduction and in the deliverance says that the church's position is that it offers baptism to parents who are not er who, who is seeking to explain the church's position to parents who are not communicant members or intending members of the church. I think I, I should say that the current law of the church offers baptism to those who are communicant members or intending members of the church or who are adherents. And an adherent of the church is understood in the highland region, the largest single local government area in the European Community to be someone who attends worship regularly. There are a great number of adherents in the highlands. There are also a large number of adherents er to my knowledge in Edinburgh, people who have moved from the highlands for work. I think of a lady who, now seventy, has attended her parish church in Edinburgh regularly year by year for forty years. She is not a communicant member because she doesn't find herself worthy to come to the lord's table. This is a traditional and most unfortunate highland practice but nevertheless it is something that is currently accepted by the church and I would hope that the convenor in drawing up, or the panel in drawing up the leaflet, would take account of this. Otherwise I would wish to move that the word o adherents or intending members be added to the deliverance. Dr could you give clarification or confirmation please. Yes certainly confirmation. We undoubtedly respect the position of the of the adherents as you describe them, undoubtedly. This was really just shorthand I suppose, but we undoubtedly er respect Could I now put number, deliverance number two to the general assembly. Is it approved? Thank you. Deliverance number three. Approved? Sorry, you wish to you wish to make a comment to it? Yes please come. Thank you. Moderator two hundred and fifty five. I found this section, number three, of particular interest because surely it's dealing with the very kernel of our relationship to what we call in language that ought to be so real and preserved from romanticism, the body of Christ membership limbhood branchship, whatever you want to call it, if whether you take your figure from John fifteen or from the Apostle. It seems to me that this is something on which er not en passant but within the flow of his report Dr Stuart mentioned something of great importance and I was jotting down for myself, by way of aide memoire, membership, Madagascar, ministry of the whole people of God, three Ms as it were . The reason is that erm the question of membership seems to me to relate essentially to the ministry of the whole people of God. And therefore I, I would like to tell you an experience I had in Madagascar because it's one of the things that will be in my memory on my deathbed. I visited a college there in, in that offshore island in the Indian Ocean and met the principal of that theological college and I said to him, I asked him how the college was going and he gave the same blandness to his answer as to my question and then he said of his theological college we are still training an aristocracy for the church and ensuring the inertia of the people of God. And I had to say, inside myself, that's awful like the kirk. Cos in a very profound sense this is true, and I was so glad that it was I think a very serious part of the flow of Dr Stuart 's report that he mentioned that the er s sense of the ministry of the whole people of God as being much more than a distant objective for us, but something of absolutely essential, vital importance to the whole life and service and outreach of the church. And what worries me, if I may say so in this matter is that, that I find er in my retirement, a sensitivity among some of my fellow ministers about something that one of them described as a threat to status a feeling that there must be a protection of prerogatives. And it seems to me that this is so profoundly tragic because surely if we talk about the body of Christ there is not only a relationship of every limb and member to the head, but of every limb and member to every other limb and member. And my plea would be that we do everything we possibly can and that's why I found the quotation from scripture in this section so apposite, that we do everything we possibly can in grace and love and truth to help people to enter into a commitment to the ministry of the whole people of God. And not to that kind of limp posture that was summed up by the princ principal of the theological college er with the word inertia. There is a profound inertia and part of that in many places surely with it there is a profound inertia on another matter Dr Stuart referred to, in an answering a question he said I would see this as the, the role of the elder. Can we not do more even than we're doing at the moment to restore to the centre of the life of the church the glorious concept of a team of pastoral care and a high command of power strategy in which dominance by ministers will be reduced to the minimum in order that together we may be ready to let the lifeblood of Christ flow through us in such a way that we will be better able to welcome the twenty first century in his name. May I bring the assembly back to deliverance number three. Is that approved? Number three before we come to number four the business convenor please? I simply wanted just to intervene at this point Moderator er there, before we get into a debate on section four, just to remind the assembly that we have a heavy volume of business still ahead of us this afternoon. We do hope to take the board of social responsibility report this afternoon as well and that people might just keep that in mind er because we have still three notices of motion on the panel on doctrine before we reach that. Thank you. When we come to number four I notice a notice of motion in the light blue papers this morning on page sixty five there is an addendum to this in the name of Mr . Would it be the mind of the assembly we hear Mr now and we deal with this addendum? Mr Moderator one six two. The panel on doctrine are to be congratulated on their wise handling of the response of presbyteries and kirk sessions to the proposed new statement of faith. However I would like to commen comment in my name in terms of my amendment on page sixty five of the blue paper to deliverance four on what seems to me their very seriously limited expression of the work of the holy spirit as guiding us only in our understanding of the bible. While one takes into account the concern of Calvin and the reformers for the balance between the light of scripture and the inner light and direction given to individuals an experience vouchsafe for countless times in both the Old and New Testaments also remembering our lord's own use of silence in prayer and I believe the increasing use of silence in modern worship and may I also say how very impressed I was by Dr 's prayer at the opening of this assembly in which he asked for the guidance of God and indeed your own equally eloquent prayer on Sunday evening Moderator open to the prompting and leading and guiding of God's spirit. And my comment would be that the spirit guides us in our understanding of the bible, needs to be augmented by the words and in our daily lives before the words renews us in the sacraments and calls us to serve God in the world. And I would move accordingly. I haven't arranged for a secondary. Thank you Mr , is this seconded? Thank you. Any comments or discussion on this amendment or this addendum? Could I then ask the convenor to respond to it please. Moderator it may seem a little strange to resist this er addendum but I do so really because er it's never a good idea to er to be amending what is in a sense a liturgical piece of work on the floor of the house. Also more particularly because this particular bit of work has had such thorough examination by the presbyteries that it doesn't seem to er justify further tinkering with it at this stage. Er I don't think there's any limitation set in our statement on the work of the holy spirit. He unites us to Christ, he gives life, he renews us, he calls us to serve I think these are all variations on the theme that Mr has in mind, and so I would resist this and hope the assembly will. Thank you. We come now to vote on this addendum to deliverance n number four and, since it is in print, we don't need to ask the clerk to read it out for us, so therefore as, ask those who wish to vote for this addendum would you please stand. The addendum to deliverance four. Thank you. Those who wish to vote against this addendum would you please stand. Thank you very much. We now come back to deliverance four as in print. Yes certainly. four eight two. Moderator I should like to move that a full stop be placed after the word commentary and that the remainder of the words in the deliverance be deleted. Moderator when the general assembly of nineteen ninety sent down the draft statement of faith, I and others were unhappy with it on a number of counts. It did not teach that men and women are made in the image of God. It excluded any mention of the virgin birth. It did not say anything about the fall. It did not unambiguously affirm the uniqueness of Christ. It did not do justice to the biblical doctrine of atonement. There was no clear teaching on faith and repentance. It did not define the authority of the bible in relation to the life of the church. It was weak in its doctrine of the holy spirit and perhaps heretical in arguing that sanctification was by means of sacraments. It did not properly highlight the nature of the church or the church's mission to the world. On the doctrine of the last things it seemed to imply universalism. After two years of debate in the church, during which and many other points such as these have been raised, I confess to being deeply disappointed with the statement before us today. The statement before us is defective in almost exactly the same points as the draft statement, with only marginal improvements in these areas. Indeed I think we can say that it is worse than the draft statement because some of the good points in the original have been removed. For example reference to God's creation by his eternal word and spirit removed. The idea that God directs the universe removed. The notion that the incarnation was to fulfil the promise to Israel and to reconcile the world with God removed. The fact that Jesus was obedient to the father's will removed. The fact that Jesus bore the sin of the world, removed. The teaching that Jesus triumphed over all the powers of evil removed. The ascension and mediation of Christ removed. The reference to justification, removed. The reference to the inspiration of scripture, removed. The promise that Jesus will return in power and glory, removed. As we stood to say the apostle's creed during the communion service yesterday a statement of faith which we share with every part of the Christian church throughout the world I concluded that this statement was unnecessary. Not only do we already have such a statement in the apostle's creed, but theological it's in a different realm. Not only so, but I believe this statement to be deeply theologically inadequate and that various points to be at variance both with scripture and with the Westminster confession of faith the standard and the principle subordinate standard of this church. Moderator we are in a day of theological confusion and disagreement. That surely has been testified to today when the very convenor of the panel on doctrine admits that he doesn't want the statements to be too clear so that they can be understood and used by people of radically different persuasions. If we do not know what we believe and cannot agree on what we believe, then is it not better to wait until we can and do. I urge the assembly to accept this amendment to depart from this statement, to commend to our churches the use of the apostle's creed and to wait for a day of broad theological agreement which in the providence of God and by the work of the holy spirit will surely come and then agree upon a statement of faith which we shall all agree and be able to commend enthusiastically to the church but until then to depart from this one. Thank you Moderator. Is is that seconded? Seconded. Now Mr you called what you have just s spoken to an amendment. I have had my own opinion confirmed with the advice from the business convenor and the vice convenor, and that is that we determine that this is in fact a counter motion that you have spoken to because it is against the spirit of the deliverance. And since it is a counter motion, I will take it at the very end with any other counter motions, and therefore I am not asking the convenor to reply to it because if we had a vote on it at this stage, we'd either be we, we would therefore be sealing completely this deliverance number four as it stands. And so therefore if anybody has amendments that they wish to make to the deliverance as it is, we will take them if necessary one by one and vote for them as they are presented to us, and then we'll come to any other counter motions that may be on hand. And you've been very kindly waiting there, come forward. Amendments or addendums to number four. Thank you Moderator. nine hundred and ten. I have I think it's an addendum erm to rewrite a particular phrase in the statement to become he died on the cross for the sins of the world and by his resurrection as already in print. I'd like to I'd like to thank the panel for the work which they have done on this very difficult issue and, although the convenor has said that it is perhaps a difficult thing to alter the text of such a document on the floor of the house, I think we also have to point out that this is our only opportunity to comment upon this particular draft which will become a definitive draft if passed by the general assembly today. One which is going to be published and placed in the hands of people at large for their help in understanding the faith. And therefore it is only because I believe this particular phrase is quite literally to do with the very crux, the very cross, of our Christian understanding that I bring it before the general assembly. In the communion service we state quite clearly that Jesus died for the sins of the world. Not just because of not just because certain men at a certain place were sinful and crucified him unjustly not just because of sin but he died for the sin of the world, taking our sin in our place. A significant change has taken place in the wording of the statement, on this particular issue, from the original nineteen ninety draft of which was produced by the working party of which I was convenor. In nineteen ninety, as indeed Mr has pointed out, there was a clear statement a sta a clear phrase which said that Christ died for our sin. In the version here in nineteen ninety two, the death of Christ is coupled with the resurrection, and all that is said in this connection is that he overcame evil. Now this to my mind is just not clear enough on the very central feature of our faith. Is this referring to a moral triumph over injustice? Is it referring just to a triumphalistic idea of atonement in which everything is just alright in the end? What we have to see is that Christ died not just as a self sacrifice not just because of injustice but he died as the atonement, to pay the price, for our sin. The statement does have a phrase in it in which it says that Jesus declared the forgiveness of sins but there is an immense difference between declaring forgiveness and making forgiveness. An immense difference indeed. It was not just enough for God to declare forgiveness but God had to do something in Christ for that forgiveness to come to be. If I could illustrate from two medieval theologians, the two traditions following them in the Tomas tradition righteousness and the moral law of God is seeing is seen as being part of the very being of God himself. In the Scottish tradition, following upon our Scottish theologian Dun Scottas although not representing him properly, it says that righteousness and moral items are just to do with the will of God. God just decides that such and such is correct or such and such is wrong. And on the Scottish understanding, it is very easy for somebody to come along and say well jo God just now declares that we are forgiven. But we have a much deeper understanding than that. God had to do something on the cross, in Christ, in order that his love which he has for us as sinners might become forgiveness for us in reality. Paul in second Corinthians said that Christ became sin for us, a glorious exchange took place, something happened on the cross which was necessary. And this is the real reason why I feel that we must include a specific connection between the death on the cross and the sins of the world. I remember once the late professor G S Stuart reminding us that, in relation to the death of Jesus on the cross, we do not know how deep were the waters crossed, or how dark was the night that the lord passed through ere he found the sheep that was lost. We do not have any neat theory of the atonement, but we know this that on the cross Christ died for our sins and for the atonement of the world. Mr that's, Mr 's addendum is seconded? Thank you. Any discussion on this particular addendum? Can I ask the convenor then to reply please. Moderator I I as before I'm resisting this. I think the statement should really just be judged on its merits today as it stands. It's been through the presbyteries, it's been discussed and we report on what the balance of opinion is. Er I I would prefer not to be involved in elaborate discussion of the theology of involved. Er remember the emphasi it is a statement a statement. A reform church should constantly be producing statements. It's not in any way in competition with ni with er apostle's creed or anything else, it's a quite different er er er er animal. It's er the, the apostle's creed ha has erm er er is erm out of a different background and Morning. Morning. There are some licensing applications Your Worships. Application that, listed as number fifty three please Your Worships. Mr of the Cross Keys. At Ribchester Your Worships. Mr at all? Licensee of the Cross Keys Ribchester. And you're making applications for an occasion licence for Saturday the twenty ninth of October to run a bar at Norbury village hall on behalf of the the village hall committee, is that right? That's right Your Worships, yes. And the hours you're asking for are seven thirty P M to eleven forty five P M? That's right. I think you did send this in intending it to be a postal application Mr ? I did yes. But er Your Worships the matter was adjourned by your colleagues until today because er Mr did indicate on the application form that er he would not be in fact operating the bar himself but that it would be somebody else. So I think your colleagues wanted more information about that so Yes. Who will be operating the bar Mr ? Well I erm er er Mr Roger . Actually I'll be operating between the village hall and the Cross Keys and Mr Roger has the pub for the last sixteen years or so. Well our concern is does this gentleman understand the licensing laws? Oh yes. Definitely. I'll, I'll be going to the village hall but I might have to go back to the Cross Keys, that's why I put Roger , perhaps I put the wrong thing on you see? I'll be in charge of the bar actually. So physically you will be exercising some degree of supervision during the evening will you? Oh yes, yes. Will you be there er when it's time to close Mr ? I will yes. Oh yes definitely, that's right Your Worship yeah. Then this application be granted. Ah thank you very much. Right thank you. Thank you very much. The application that's before Your Worships is a a temporary authority in respect of Kwiksave Supermarket. Jacqueline is the applicant Your Worship. Are you represented by a solicitor? Alright so Could you take the oath please. Hold the bible up in your right hand and read the words from that card. I swear to almighty god that the evidence I shall give in this court shall be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth . Yeah. And tell the magistrates your full name and address could you? Jacqueline And what is your date of birth Thirteenth of sixty four. And you're making the application for temporary authority to operate the licence in respect of premises known as Kwiksave Supermarket? That's right. At er is that right? That's right yes. Is the outgoing licensee present? Pardon? Is the outgoing licensee present? No. Why? I don't know. You don't know? Well somebody's handed these documents today. Yeah. And the present licence holder is Susan . That's right. But sir there is a letter simply saying er she consents to the er application but there's no indication as to why she's not here. Is that lady down there from Kwiksave? Yes. She doesn't work for the company at all? What's your role in Kwiksave? Supervisor. In this depot in Clitheroe? That's right. Are you there permanently? All Yeah. day Yes. premises are opening? Yes. What er experience have you got in er the sale of intoxicating liquors Miss ? Well I've worked for the past two year really Where? I used to work at and then And how long have you been in these particular premises? Er about a month. Mr Sir? Well no, it's just that she said And er Miss do you intend to apply for the transfer of this licence? Yeah. Has an application been submitted for that purpose? Yes. transfer Oh Well I'm not so sure this applicant knows very much about what's going on here anyway Your Worships. It would appear to be most of this is Kwiksave Supermarket. ? For all practical purposes at this stage sir she may appear to you to be a fit and proper person I've no doubt the Licensing Committee will want to know a lot more about the situation sir. If I recall rightly I think that it's not that long ago that the licence was transferred to the present holder. You are aware Miss that any persons working in that department have got to be of age? Yes. And you undertake that that will apply? Yes. And you are aware of the restrictions on drink for young people? Yeah And the sort of concern about that aspect? Yes. Well we're going to grant this protection order which is temporary permission to keep your premises open, but I must tell you that there will be a lot more investigation before the order is granted permanently and the transfer stands. And we're ordering that the other person if possible attends If she's not in the district that will be difficult but if it is possible if she's in the district we order that she attends at transfer sessions the outgoing licensee. Have you got the licence for Miss ? No Well that it will not be effective until er you produce that licence to this court. Erm I assume if that this er if the licensee has left those premises w she's physically left has she now? Yeah. Er when did she go? She left the company then? Mm. I see. Well I would have expected those premises not to be selling intoxicating liquors you've obviously not had a licence for a month. That will also be er considered by the licensing committee at the next hearing. You must produce that licence, otherwise it's not effective er Miss . See as the licensee you have responsibilities. It's all very well the company telling you as employee what to do, but you, you're the one who's going to be in difficulties if you don't comply with the licensing laws. The whole application's not been very satisfactory and the fact that the licence is not here puts you in, in, in difficulty. We are aware now that you're operating without a licence and it's up to you to get that licence here as quickly as possible. Er, she can go for now. To deal with application listed number forty four Your Worships, please. It's in respect of a temporary authority for the Edisford Bridge Inn Your Worships. Your Worships please I'd like to make application on behalf of Mr James Henry for a protection order in respect of the Edisford Bridge Hotel. Er Mr, Mr , Mr . your full name is James Henry ? Yes sir. And you have resided for the last six months at the Railway Hotel and at er ? Yes. And are you this morning applying for the protection order in respect of the Edisford Bridge Hotel? Yes. Er would you, would you tell the Your Worships what experience you've had in the licence trade? Er yes current position er at the moment I'm the licence training manager for brewery and I've held that position for five and a half years. Er previous to that I held the licence at The Three Fishes at er for three years. Er previous to that I held the licence for The Mason's Arms at for three years previous to that and before that I've been connected with the catering and licence trade from being fifteen. And you're therefore quali qualified to have a justices licence length of time? I And are you applying to , are you proposing to apply for the permanent transfer of this licence? Yes sir. Thank you. Er Mrs please. Mrs , your full name is Margaret ? Yes. And are you the current licensee? I am yes. And do you support and consent to this application this morning? I do yes. That is the application Your Worships. protection order be granted? Worships please. Excuse me a moment Your Worships while I write the out. Case fifty seven please Your Worships, Robert James . He is in the cells Your Worships take an order for him to be brought up. There are apparently further charges to be put to him Your Worships. A charge of theft and a charge of handling stolen property. He's only charged with one offence of criminal deception at the moment. Mr ? Fifty five sir. Fifty six. Are you Robert James ? Yes sir. And what is your home address Mr ? Is your date of birth ? That's correct. Are you represented by a solicitor today? Should be. Is it Mr ? I haven't a clue. You have all the documents in front of you. Well I think Mr represented you on a previous occasion, that's why I'm asking you now. I don't know sir. My solicitor's in Birmingham Mr was duty solicitor on that day. Ah. I think he's represented you on more than one occasion in fact hasn't he? But don't you know whether a solicitor's going to be here for the committal proceedings today? I haven't a clue what's happening. I don't know, I've no If, you're the defendant, one would have thought as, as far as I know I have a committal today. That's right. And I would have thought that your solicitor was to be here to represent you. As far as I'm aware my solicitor has been in contact with prosecution to have the case transferred to Birmingham Crown Court. Well it hasn't even been committed for trial yet. Do you know anything about this Miss ? I'm afraid to say that I have no knowledge. I haven't certainly myself spoken to anybody with regard to that. I would have thought the normal procedure would be for him to be committed to Preston Crown Court and for the Crown Courts thereafter to sort out the final venue. I certainly have no knowledge of any contact with regard to the ultimate venue and nothing has been marked on my file. Your Worships legal aid was granted er on the thirteenth of September to a firm called of Birmingham. Looks as if they're not here Your Worships. All I can suggest sir is the case is adjourned just have to arrange for a solicitor to be here. Do you have anything to say about that Mr ? I wish the committee to go along please sir. I've been stuck up in this part In that case put it back to later in the day sir because the statements have to be read out in court. If he doesn't want to be represented, is that what you're saying ? What I'm saying sir is to save any inconvenience to the court is that if I can have my committal cos I don't wanna be stuck up in this part of the country. I have a Crown Court appearance in Birmingham and as far as I'm aware my solicitors have been in contact with the prosecution in this part of the country to explain the procedure and as far as I'm aware the committal this morning was to be committed to Birmingham Crown Court with other offences. Well you've heard the senior prosecutor say that she knows Well I She knows nothing about that. I don't sir. Yeah Well in that case sir can I take my my committal to Preston Crown Court and when I go to Birmingham If you're committed for trial from this court you will be committed to Preston. Well I'll take it now then sir. If if it is to be arranged at another court Crown Court that arranged that Well in that case sir can you give the committee the funds. As of now. As I say sir we need to put this matter back to later in the day. The defendant would not appear to be represented, therefore the committal will have to be dealt with by the way of reading out all the statements . It can't be done Therefore we'll put this case back till later in the day. Do you see that Mr ? Because you're not represented Well I don't know what the situation is Well I'm telling, that's what I'm trying to tell you. That because you're not represented the statements will have to be read out which will then take quite some time . And they will if you to court which is something you were concerned about. I don't know if you can help that man or not. I'll have a word with him Terry Because Mr had represented him. Mr said before that he, he thought it was as duty solicitor. He, he has represented him at some stage as duty solicitor. But he is represented under a legal aid order, this defendant, by a firm of solicitors in Birmingham and he's anxious to be committed for trial today. If you would represent him we could it section six two. Otherwise solicitor present today? Not a clue, but he doesn't know either. Oh I see. He's given certain information to the court which isn't correct anyway. It might help everybody concerned if you could help him. I'll have a word with him sir. Yes. Would you deal with cases fifty five and fifty six Your Worships, Sean David . Mr will represent him. Are you Sean David ? Yes. What's your date of birth Mr ? What is your address, Mr ? You are charged with two offences, the first of which is that at Clitheroe on the twenty sixth of August nineteen eighty eight without lawful excuse you damaged two stained glass windows, a picture frame glass and twelve drinking glasses of varying descriptions belonging to breweries, intending to damage that property, for being reckless as to whether that property would be damaged contrary to section one of the Criminal Damage Act of nineteen seventy one. I understand Miss the value has been mentioned on a previous occasion of being three hundred and ninety five pounds. Indeed sir yes. Right. To that charge Sean David do you plead guilty or not guilty? Worships if I may interrupt that though, there's some dispute about the damage which was allegedly caused. I have mentioned it to Miss this morning and she has undertaken to make further enquiries. Er briefly the situation is that it's alleged that he broke two stained glass door panels and Mr denies that he broke the second of the two. The one at the front door he says was broken at some time earlier than the evening on which he was involved. Unfortunately Miss hasn't been able to conclude her enquiries er to apportion the damage and to take instructions as to the veracity of what I have just said. It is suggested er by both myself and er my colleague that the matter should be adjourned for one week. Well it was adjourned last week but er instructions Your Worships. Yes we agree to adjourn this case for one week enquiries can be made. Sir he does answer on conditional bail today. Well bail will be extended for one week. So you know what that means Mr , you were told this last week. You're surrender yourself to bail next Tuesday at ten o'clock. Hopefully the matter will proceed next week. Can he go Your Worships? Yes he can leave the court Case number one Your Worships please. Peter John . Are you Peter John ? That's right. What's your date of birth? What's your home address Mr ? You are charged with an offence which is contrary to section six of the Road Traffic Act of nineteen seventy two that you at Worley on the ninth of September drove a motor vehicle on the A six seven one Worley by- pass having consumed alcohol in such a quantity that the proportion of it in your breath exceeded the prescribed limit. Do you understand? Do you plead guilty or not guilty? Guilty. Have you got your driving licence with your Mr ? I haven't got it Why? Because, well I told the police at the time that er I've misplaced it and er What have you done about getting a, a replacement? Well I haven't done anything at the moment because I didn't I didn't think it was worth it actually. Well it says on the bottom of er your copy of the charge sheet production of driving licence you must produce it. Failure to produce it will mean that it is automatically suspended and it also means you've committed yet another offence by not having a driving licence here to produce Mr . Well I wa I wasn't sure whether to whether it would come through in time for the case That's why I didn't send off for it. I wasn't sure what the situation was Unless the prosecutor is in the fortunate position of having a computer printout of your driving er record and your licence record the case won't be able to proceed today anyway. regrettably there isn't a printout of the driving licence. Well the case can't go ahead today without your driving licence. Sorry, the case can't go ahead without your driving licence. How many weeks do you want er Miss ? Your Worships I would anticipate that it normally takes at least three weeks for a printout from a computer to be obtained. This case is adjourned for three weeks in order get a printout can be obtained. Do that mean I don't have to apply for another licence? No, what er y er I suggest you don't apply for another licence now, now you've left it so late. But er I would urge you to try to find your driving licence because Oh I, I don't think I will be able to but I'll have a look. Right well you know you're going to be disqualified eventually for this offence if you're convicted? Yeah. What the offence er the drink driving offence? Yes. Yeah. I realize that. You pleaded guilty to the charge anyway Mr . The point is that when you are disqualified you're not just disqualified from driving, you are disqualified from holding or obtaining any driving licence. So if you've got one at home, you're committing an offence by being in possession of it. Do you understand? Do you understand that? Yeah. Right, from now on you mean? Yeah. When you're disqualified. Don't apply for a driving licence in the meantime. But er you'll be in a far safer position if you actually produce your licence on the twenty fifth of October. Can I go sir? Yes you can leave the court now. Right Mrs ? Er number twenty one sir. John Graham Twenty, twenty one? Yes sir. Could you deal with that matter Your Worships? John Graham please. Twenty one Now are you John Graham ? John Geoffrey . John? Geoffrey . Geo with a G? Yes. What's your date of birth Mr ? And what's your home address? You're summoned for a number of offences the first of which is that on the twenty first of June nineteen eighty eight you, on the public road namely Acrington Road Worley, used a mechanically propelled vehicle when there was no excise licence in force. That's an offence under the Vehicles Excise Act of nineteen seventy one. Do you understand? Yes. Do you plead guilty or not guilty? Guilty. Also that you being the driver of the motor car, having been required to produce your driving licence for examination to a police officer, failed to do so. To that do you plead guilty or not guilty? Guilty. Also that you used the vehicle without insurance being in force in respect of third party risks in contravention of section a hundred and forty three of the Road Traffic Act. To that are you guilty or not guilty? Not guilty. Also that on the twenty first of June you used a motor vehicle at Worley on Acrington Road when there was no test certificate in force. Are you guilty or not guilty? Not guilty. Also that you failed to produce an insurance certificate on being required to do so. Are you guilty or not guilty? Guilty. And finally that you failed to produce a test certificate. Are you guilty or not guilty? Guilty. Has he produced these documents to you Miss ? No sir. Have you got the insurance with you? Yes. And test certificate with you? I've given solicitor What? I've given them to that solicitor that Well who's your solicitor? It was duty solicitor sir. Oh. Could you tell Mr that he's wanted please, wherever he is. I certainly have. Would you like me to show them to the prosecuting solicitor? Well if that will save time. Nine present offences. please Your Worships I am satisfied that those documents do cover the defendant for the date in question and I would therefore offer no evidence in relation to the no insurance and no test certificate offences those. Right. Did you hear that sir? Mr those three charges driving a motor car without insurance and a test certificate, those two charges are dismissed. Er now let's have the prosecution, have the facts for the other offences then Miss . may please Your Worships it was the twenty first of June in the morning when the police officer was on duty on the A six eight, the Acrington road to Worley. He had occasion to stop the vehicle which was being driven by Mr and he noted that the excise licence which was being displayed had in fact expired at the end of March. Mr was unable to produce his documents in relation to the vehicle which he indicated was his own, and he was therefore given an H R T one to produce his documents. But you will appreciate that in the matters that he has pleaded, pleaded guilty to this morning, he in fact failed to produce his insurance, driving licence and test certificate within the required period. Your Worships those are the brief facts. I would ask you to consider back duty of eight pounds thirty three pence, that being for the month of May. This says June on here. I beg your pardon. it is in fact for the month of June. Right. I'd also ask you to consider costs of ten pounds. You're able to help him now are you ? Yes Your Worships in fact I wonder if I may Just a minute before we start but er why are you the back duty for June when his licence finished at the end of March? Sir I apologize. I was going by a brief statement made by the officer which indicated that it expired on the thirty first of March. I think in fact that is a an error on the officer's part. It would appear from the licensing authorities in fact it expired at the end of May. Your Worships er these offences arise out of er what was initially a road traffic accident which occurred on the twenty first of June er when er Mr 's vehicle came into collision with er a vehicle that was erm stationary in the centre of the road waiting to turn right. No er allegations of erm concerning the correctness of his driving er are made by the pr prosecution er as a result of the incident but er as a result of the officer's enquiries er it came to light that Mr was er in breach of some of the er other regulations regarding road users and er so the summonses which you are to deal with this morning have er have been issued against him. Erm and you will be aware that, er two of three of the er summonses that are now left for you to de deal with, that's three of the four er do in fact relate to failure to produce documents. Er failure to produce his driving licence, failure to produce a test certificate for the vehicle and failure to produce his insurance document. And what Mr says in respect of er those three offences is that erm the officer, he accepts, did tell him that he was obliged to produce the documents to a police station but he says that he was suffering some shock as a result of the road accident and er he didn't appreciate what the officer was saying to him at the time and, never having had to produce his documents at the police station before, er he had never er known that that was a procedure that had to be followed. And in the circumstances, he didn't pay any attention to the print on the er H R T er one form that was issued to him and he didn't produce the documents. It was completely ignorance on his part in that respect. Er Your Worships the one remaining summons is the one relating to the fact that his vehicle er wasn't taxed at the time of the accident, and I think er you, you will be aware, his tax did run out at the end of May and this accident happened on the twenty first of June. I've asked him about that and what he said is that er he was saving up and he was going to tax the vehicle as soon as he was able to do so, but he didn't have the funds er to do so at, at that time. Erm he is obviously aware that er by not having the vehicle taxed, it's going to cost him considerably more than if he had er taxed the vehicle at the right, correct and proper time. Your Worships Mr works for in Worley and he works for them as an engineer. His vehicle was erm something that he did use for work but unfortunately as a result of the accident his has been written off and he hasn't yet been able to er replace it and so he's having to be erm er chauffeured by the company to do his er his work. Erm he was using at that time an R registered Ford Escort er which was er only insured third party fire and theft. He receives for his employment a take home pay of seventy three pounds per week. He lives with his parents and pays board of twenty pounds per week. He's fortunate in that his employer takes him to work in the mornings but he has to catch the bus home in the evening and a at lunchtime on Saturdays which costs him seven pounds forty. He hasn't any other commitments and he would ask that erm he'd be allowed to pay the fine at a rate of twenty pounds per week. Your Worships those are the circumstances, I would ask you to bear in mind that this man ha has four summonses against him purely as a result of really ignorance as far as production of documents is concerned. They were in order and erm he would have produced them had he realized what the officer was saying to him and er that he would have er realized had he not been suffering the shock that he was actually shuff suffering at the er at the time of the accident. I don't think Now Mr er you pleaded guilty to these offences and we've listened to what the solicitor has said on your behalf. The main offence of having no excise licence you'll be fined seventy five pounds. You'll be ordered to pay eight pounds thirty three back duty and ten pounds costs. the offences of failing to produce you've been fined ten pounds for each of those three offences. We will order the fines and costs to be paid at the rate of twenty pounds a week. So I make that a hundred and thirteen a hundred and twenty three pounds with the costs sir thirty three pence. No a hundred and twenty six thirty three. Sorry, you're right. One two three eight. One two three three three sir. Under do you understand that er Mr ? Yes. You'll pay that at twenty pounds a week. The officer of the court is agreed the address will be given to you by the court official before you leave. It is your responsibility to make sure that money is paid each and every week. The first payment is due by next Tuesday. Erm I'm off sick at the moment from work so So what? So I won't be able to pay the first payment cos you know I ain't got no money. Don't you get any sick pay at all? Well erm I've just come off holiday and so I won't be entitled to none for the first four days. I see. And when are you likely to be earning again? Erm perhaps the middle of next week. give fourteen days for the first payment sir? Yes. You'll have fourteen days for the first payment and twenty pounds a week thereafter. So by a fortnight today there's gotta be a payment in Yes. Mr . Right? Thank you. Miss apparently you represent Mr I I notice from the documents from the er summons it was adjourned because erm their solicitor wrote to say that he would be pleading not guilty? Yeah. Is that the case? Yeah Your Worships I understand that the er the prosecution have erm an application . I don't know if you wish to deal with this So who's it for? Is, if it's not going to be a trial Well Your Worship I'll do it now but if it I wonder if I can assist. It is an a matter where Miss has spoken to me about this particular case and it Forty five. Case forty five Your Worship. It's the view of the prosecution that this is a matter that could be dealt with quite satisfactorily by the way of bind over if the court were minded to do that, if the court would accept that course of action. I understand Mr would be willing to be bound over. Yes I confirm that that's correct. Yes. Well obviously Miss the magistrates will need to be satisfied there are grounds why they should bind him over. They will also need to be satisfied that there is a fear for the future otherwise they will not bind him over. I appreciate that sir. You may feel at the end of the day that you need to hear from the officer of the case and he is still present obviously in case the court wishes to I see. Well in that case I, I will leave it till, I'll deal with this a little bit later on. Obviously it could take possibly half an hour or so, so who else is present Mrs ? Er number forty one sir, Sylvia . Could you deal with that Your Worships please? Yes. Forty one. Are you Sylvia ? Yes. What is your date of birth please? Pardon? What is your date of birth please? Er And what is your home address? Thank you. Your summoned that at Worley on the twenty fifth of July nineteen eighty eight, you being the driver or a motor car on King Street and an accident occurred where injury was caused to you failed to stop in accordance with section twenty five of the Road Traffic Act of nineteen seventy two. Do you understand that? Yes. Do you plead guilty or not guilty? Well I did stop because I tried to avoid him. Well I'm sorry are you Miss or Mrs ? Pardon? Are you Miss or Mrs ? Mrs. Mrs the court cannot enquire into the circumstances at this stage. All the court wants to know is are you pleading guilty or not guilty. Mr has handed me your driving licence. Mr as duty solicitor have you seen this lady? Yes I have seen her sir. Have you been able to advise her? Well I, I have advised her that erm er implications of the erm er of the offence. Possibly I could just have another word with her Right it, it might help her. Now I'll ask you again Mrs , to that offence of failing to stop in accordance with the requirements of the Road Traffic Act do you plead guilty or not So that ewes er, are, are, er, erm, protected by him, erm in Leicestershire he says it's open countryside and he says I don't lose that many by foxes, he says I'm more, er er at unease with other things. Getting to the tenant situation I have never dictated to tenants. In actual fact I have bent over backwards, I was the only councillor that went and welcomed one of our new ke tenant farmers quite recently, having been on the agricultural environment protection committee and been on a board of er interview panel. I actually asked prospective farmers what they thought about certain issues, because I think the Leicestershire county council er and our department are probably some of the best farmers landlords there are in the country and I think our tenant farmers know that in actual fact I asked the question to several of the members er er the potential er clients erm, what do you think about foxes. At no time did I ever have one of them ever say to me that they were erm against foxes, but all of a sudden we find ourselves being issued with a er petition from tenant farmers which says that they are against er people like me that er er pro banning, it's very like er Mr , we can't attack Mr cos he's no longer here but on the, on the issue of er , I C I brought ou . I said to the farmers we s you should cut grass and you get nitrates into the water and I said to the farmers er er about their slurry throwing erm a muck across the land, we know the problems that causes, I said if we came out with fertilisers which were would you buy them if it costed a bit more. Ninety percent of them said yes, that it depends on how you present the figures, so in actual fact I wonder how our tenant farmers all of a sudden find themselves in a position that they perhaps would rather sign a petition and not put their heads above the parapet bearing in mind you are in a community, bear in mind you are connected, bear in mind that your livelihood is with those others and I have to say it is true that a certain business in my area connected with farming has been threatened. That the hunting fraternity have passed the word round that it to remove your business because it's rumoured that that person is involved with er er people like me. I think that's that absolutely horrific and that has come from one of the practice partners and not the actual himself. I think that's terrible. To put that type of pressure on individuals I think is absolutely awful. Going on again on the tenant farmers, I actually think that er we are very good landlords and I think our our our tenants would rather us keep us as landlords than the private sector, in actual fact we will have no doubt a debate quite soon on that issue when the government makes us sell off all areas of of er th our interests and that one, I will tell you this, I think that some of the members all sides of the fence every side of the fence, have been passionately behind the tenants, if if they're gonna be sold off by now they'd have been sold off, but I think it won't be far long before we have to take education first, social services first, the elderly before er your side with your government to come forward and say to us we don't want you interfering with anything like that and being bold business, get rid of, but that's another debate that will come up later on. Monitoring. I trust our tenants at the end of the day if it is illegal I'm sure that our tenants will not do it. When it becomes illegal which will I'm sure all people will abide by the law. I'm sorry about the turning a blind eye I er I er Mr I really do feel that if you are passionate about it the one way to get rid of this debate is to vote for my motion. Because there is a way forward, it is about negotiation, it is about hunt the hunting community, it is about sharing ideas and looking for a way forward, going forward from here, well to turn a blind eye to what goes on and vote for that amendment is very similar to what Hitler did in Germany fifty years ago. The national populous actually turned a blind eye to atrocities that were happening with human beings. It didn't just start off with human beings, they s started in sectors and it spread. I don't think it's as bad as that here but I don't think it can ever happen here, hopefully. But on the same score I'm afraid I must be an a narrow minded urban socialist well okay, I've never lived in a city but if you want to call me that, fine. But what I do say is I am a trustee I am a trustee not of farmer's land not of your land Mr , not of your land Mr not of your land Mr every person in Leicestershire owns that land, they have got a mark and I'll tell you sir four thousand five hundred signatures made in one weekend are saying to us you are a trustee of our land, it's not your land, our land I keep hearing, it's our land it's not our land it's the people of Leicestershire's land and what the people of Leicestershire land are saying to us sir, they're saying to us you cannot continue this barbaric killing of foxes. If it's a pest, cull it properly, get the authorities in, we've got more and more specialists sitting in those chambers telling us what to do on farming issues,on B S E, we've got coming, we've got a a team of experts, well not one of them has told said gone down in favour of hunting. Some of them have actually turned round and said keep it up Mr , keep it up Mr , we will see the end of it one day. Not all of them I accept and they've been very helpful and when it comes to erm any other issue, I think basically, unfortunately sir, I think that we have strayed from the debate, we've strayed onto ethnic issues er er and I think it's a shame Mr , there was no need to introduce that and of course it was bound to bring a backlash, it was bound to introduce it it it it's coloured it it's made opaque the issues because you make it complicated, in actual fact er er I think that er being a governor of a school, I think that's absolutely marvellous that some youngsters the future, I think the future will decide, I think there are kids out there will turn round one day and say how could you have done that? How could you really have witnessed that?and when I say that finally I want to talk about terrier men because basically they're the people who've ruined your sport the terrier men are illegal, the terrier men are doing something that is definitely illegal in this country. To open a fox hole and to introduce a dog into the tunnels to come across an undefended vixen, she's bound to fight. Survival instinct is absolutely incredible, to see the wounds of a terrier and a fox when they have locked jaw locked and are pulled squealing out of a hole, I think I am deeply concerned about anybody here today that can turn that blind eye because what their terrier men are doing is dog fighting, make no bones about it, they won't be interested in laying the scent, they will not be interested in being retrained and helping your fraternity. They're there for one reason and one reason only I know, cos I've been involved in fox hunting, I've shot and fished but I'll tell you something, was also trained to hunt humans, going back many years ago, when I was in the Falkland Islands training for the event that happened eventually. One of the things that I used to do was train and I know the feeling, I know the excitement, I know the adrenalin that pumps round the body, when you go in for the kill. I know because I've actually done it. I look back now and think we are actually still doing that, not in the military aspect, in civvy street, we've got people, real nice people, you talk to them on the street and you get them at the kill and the hackles go up, you can see the adrenalin pumping round their body, you can see the kind of excitement in their eyes and you can see the terrier men grabbing by the the scruff of the neck, bleeding and then throwing. Did you watch the v video when the the terrier men having a fox fought for its life, okay to have killed it there and then I would have accepted. I could have turned a blind eye, but to grab it and to throw it to the hounds I think was absolutely abysmal. I hope today we can get rid of this issue we can put it where it belongs in the House Of Commons, we can get rid of it and make sure that Leicestershire helps that and I am still willing to talk to the hunt. I am still willing to get a forum together. I am still willing to negotiate and talk to the organisations and look at the sport. Keep the pageantry. Keep the jobs. Let's go forward together, not in not against each other Adrian,it's near time Let's go forward together. Thank you Chair for the time. Thank you for listening and I hope today that we all vote just this once and get rid of it out of our hands into the place where it belongs the House of Commons. Thank you Chair. I will now put the vote on the amendment. That's a surprise. You, you're voting on Mr amendment. Would you please indicate whether you're voting for or against or whether you are abstaining. Mr Against. Mr Against. Mr For. Mr Against. Mr Against. Mrs Against. Mr . For. Mrs . For. Mr Against. Mr Against. Mrs For. Mr Against. Mrs For. Mr Mr B For. Mr C O For. Mr J R For. Mr For. Mr Against. Mrs . For. Mr For. Mr Against. Mrs Against. Mr For. Dr. Against. Mr For. Mrs For. Mr For. Mr Against. Mr For. Mrs For. Mr Against. Mr For. Mr Against. Mr For. Mr Against. Mr For. Mr Against. Mr B C . Mr N T Against. Mr For. Mr Against. Mr Against. Mr For. Mr For. Mr For. Mr For. Mr Against. Mr Mr For. Mr For. Mr Against. Mr A . Against. Mr G Against. Mr Mr Against. Dr. Abstain. Dr. For. Professor For. Mrs For. Mr Against. Mr Against. Mr For. Mr Against. Mr Against. Mr Against. Mrs Against. Mr Against. Mrs Against. Major Doctor Against. Mr Against. Mr Against. Mr A J For. Mrs Against. Sir Lionel For. Mr For. Mr Against. Mr E F For. Mr J N Mr Against. Mr For. Mr For. Mr Against. Mr Against. and Mr Yes, just go straight on to policy and resources, we we have to take it with the main motion, I mean if it's passed it's a s standing motion. If it's not passed it's a motion. I would just put it all those in favour say aye Cos this is the crucial vote. Yes, it's thirty seven for forty against and abstention Th th thirty seven for forty against so it's lost. Yes. The result of the ballot is thirty seven for, forty against with one abstention. I declare that the amendment is lost. Hooray, hooray Ask Mr. if he wants to say anything on the main motion. Did you want to say anything on the main motion now er thank you. All those in favour All those in favour please say aye. Aye. Those against no right. What's he asking to record a vote, the the this is on the main motion, could could I ask you to keep quiet just while we're doing the voting please cos it's very difficult to hear. Mr For. Mr For. Mr Against. Mr For. Mr For. Mrs For. Mr Against. Mrs Against. Mr For. Mr For. Mrs Against. Mr For. Mrs Against. Mr Against. Mr B Against. Mr C O Against. Mr J R Against. Mr Mr For. Mrs Mrs Against. Mrs Against. Mr Against. Mr For. Mrs For. Mr Against. Doctor For. Mr Against. Mrs Against. Mr Abstain. Mr For. Mr Against. Mrs Against. Mr For. Mr Against. Mr For. Mr Against. Mr For. Mr Against. Mr For Mr B C Mr N T For. Mr Against. Mr For. Mr For Mr Against. Mr Against. Mr Against. Mr Against. Mr For. Mr For. Mr Against. Mis Mr For. Mr A For Mr G For. Mr Mr For. Doctor For. Doctor Abstain. Professor Against. Mrs Against. Mr For. Mr For. Mr Against. Mr For. Mr For. Mr For. Mrs For. Mr For. Mrs For. Major Doctor Mr For. Mr For Mr A J Against. Mrs For Sir Lionel Against. Mr Against. Mr For. Mr E F Against. Mr J N Mr For. Mr Against. Mr Against. Mr For. Mr For. And Mr Yes, I mean if if by any chance that was passed, I don't think it is if if by any chance it was it would just be the same as the amendment we had . Is it c is it carried? Yes, I think it probably is. back to page er twenty thirty three two abstentions so it's carried forty two thirty three in total. The result of the vote is for car is carried forty two to thirty three. Hooray We will now proceed with agenda item number six report of the policy and resources committee. Mr the agenda item number six please. After this agenda item we will take a tea break. Mr . Thank you chairman, I think that I'll take it easy until the chamber empty and so. Can you proceed Mr ? I cannot find the page now through all that excitement here when I get to it I'll get to it some time page twenty five I'll be alright. Can I say Chairman on on this report of the policy of the old policy and resources committee on the internal management of local authorities that was a very important issue because it's I all issues are important but in particular the the seal the report is to inform the council of comments which the policy and resources committee has agreed to make the association of county councils on the recommendation of the joint working party on the internal management of local authority Now I'm sure you, you've waded through the report at least some of the during the last er week or so that er that you've had it well I would advise you to turn to page thirty and thirty one because there's lot eas and it'll make life easier for you, if you do that and there on the bottom half of page thirty you will see the decisions of the policy and resources committee. I can't remember at the policy and resources why it was decided by a majority because in in replying to this report on making our comments to this report,I first had consultations with officers to go through some of the items that we had done and issues that we had covered in this authority especially the members' services sub committee and we knocked off the bare bones of er a report to the policy and resources committee and the policy. Should keep them brief. A result, I can't hear myself speaking if I are the policy and resources committee there were other they were erm er in the debate there were some very good cases brought in to it and some erm good recommendations and this is why I'm surprised I'm er forget now why, there were some who were er against by majority because I believe that when we look down on the decisions of the P N O, we have made some very good recommendations if I say so it says on twenty, paragraph twenty in and you people on this authority, members of this authority have been saying a a clear definition of the role of the local government now and for the next twenty years, should underpin any consideration of local authority management structures and the role of members and therefore the joint working party's consideration begin from an inadequate base. So what we're saying is really is that the defi definition and the role of local government should have been debated I think from starters. When then, then we could have, we could have operated amid recommendations from a a different base. On three, if you see then three that we the county council will not support a development of capital, cabinet or executive management, arrangements which would tend to concentrate power in the hands of a relatively few members stifle public debate and diminish the role of the majority of members. I think we we have quite some time on this one and I'm sure you will all agree that a reply that we do not go down the road of a cabinet government. I never, never would be a believer as was others, of a a cabinet government. I'm sure it's been operated in some places but your policy and resources committee do recommend that we do not go down that road. For as said with all three of the county councils not support the taking of new powers to promote experiment cabinet of executive management arrangements. What they've been saying is that some authorities might have experiments in the cabinet arrangement we're not advising to go down that road because and on which point we don't agree with that type of of government. And on H Little H and I'm skipping through them because I'm sure a lot of you would like to get to the tea pot. Here, here. Here, here, I second that on H on page thirty one very important one, the county council welcomes the recognition by the joint working party of the importance of meaningful support services to the elected members and the recomme recommendation that the Secretary of State should review and clarify the powers of local authorities to meet costs of services provided to members to enable them to carry out their duties as councillors Now the erm members appointments, appointments of member services sub have been discussing this issue and I would like to point out to members that we are not claiming the amount allowable for the paying members allowances we erm we're way below the limit that's allowable by the government Now before anyone say well what have you done about it? I and some others have tried to do something about it because you'll remember in the last year last two years, we have put in a a sum of money in the budget to increase the allowances for members and for resources to to support members. Not because I suppose and I must condemn any particulars group we all, in the end said not this time. But I say you're foolish not to have put that in the budget. Because it it's an essential part as of running a good authority and that is to have the resources to support the members of that authority because it is a profession, a semi professional job you sit on committees that make decisions. I think you should, allowances should be at at least support you in that and also from those allowances other resources that provide for research etcetera for the members. So I make no apology for raising this one. I will never make an apology for increase in member's allowances and resources to support members in training etcetera and the tools to do a good job, given the tools, give you the tools to do a good job. I hope I will, that we will have support in it on this issue and I don't want to take up all the time but it is something that members do approach me in, and and others on the members' services sub and I hope we have time Chairman to er give this report some consideration and let's say it's a v , it's a very important if you Chairman want any additionals to the recommendations, or if you say we're going too far in the recommendations because those recommendations you have down in front of you will be forwarded on and you're officers and your your your policies and resources they've given some time on on this report and therefore on the bottom of page thirty one the motion to be moved says that the comments of the policy and resources committee and the recommendations of the joint working party and the internal management of the local authorities be noted for submission to the Association of County Councils as appropriate. I move Seconded, reserve the right Mr Thank you Chairman. these are recommendations from a joint working party D of E of the erm local authority association and they are to almost unbelievable for us to consider and I can only assume that the that we must remember that this is really a response to what I call Heseltine's last squeeze which was the idea of executive mayors and so in a sense lip service which has to be paid somewhere along those lines but it does recommend that we think seriously about cabinet govern government about single party committees and I can't imagine how anybody in their right minds would argue now that the cabinet government when they see what cabinet government leads to in Westminster and what de facto cabinet government leads to in majority ruled councils up and down the country erm, there is of course a I think a misleading er er brownie point the idea of relaxing restrictions on members allowances but members must realise why that is in there. It's in there because you can't have executive style cabinet government in local government unless you pay executive councillors executive salaries, it's got nothing to do with the idea of you getting thirty five pounds rather than thirty three if we stay here all day erm I would just, I'm really wisely advised to make one point er Mr er was c wondering why this didn't have majority support actually most of it did I think Mr will confirm that he and his colleagues were happy to support all of the proposed responses from A to J on page thirty and thirty one but were not happy with response B and I would like to er that erm that er when our responses do go forward it is made clear that apart from little paragraph B there was all party support because I really feel that our local authority associates need to know that and erm I hope that will be little B was er a piece that erm certainly I and my colleagues supported er, rather . I mean in response to the general tone of the argument which was they want us to increase the leadership roles in the, in in local government and in in local communities and local councils we would we thought that that was inconsistent with the continual removal of the responsibilities from local government into quangos and er and er Mr and his colleagues were not happy with that. So with that er suggestion Chairman I'll, I think I'll let you all get to tea. Mr Thank you sir. Yes that's erm correct er the majority view's recommendations er did come from discussions and a large measure of agreement erm between er er all three parties on this council. Er and Professor is right that it was paragraph B er which at the time was A A er it's now B B, that caused er me and er my colleagues some difficulty erm in er policy and resources and it will be the reason for which we don't support it this afternoon. Erm er perhaps I could refer just briefly as to why not. Paragraph B suggests that er we're dealing with a report which proports to address er community leadership and representation that's not the purpose of the report. The purpose of the report is set out in erm paragraph two three of appendix one and that's on page thirty seven of the council report er which says quite clearly that things are changing in all areas of the public sector. New management styles are being developed to deal with new roles new circumstances. Local governments at the forefront of this changes. The local authority has to look not only to its traditional role as provider of services but also, this is the critical bit to one where the emphasis is now more on specifying requirements, coordinating functions, monitoring performance. The existing committee structure and many features of common practice erm as the best ways of managing service provision. It may not be so any longer and it's because this report deals with this aspect that I feel this a vital and important matter er that that in fact comes in front of us. Unfortunately erm er, the er argument has been sidetracked into a spat about whether you've got more powers or you haven't got more powers and er and other matters and er er I don't think if we're gonna get a sensible response to the D o E that we need to axe er er grind axes in that way. There's no doubt Chairman local government is changing erm the Leicestershire management initiative actually acknowledged the need to change to an enabling authority. Would that it were as easy as sticking your hand up to vote for it Because I have to say that I see no evidence since that motion approving the management initiative was passed of Labour and Liberal members doing any more than paying lip service. We've had at least two opportunities in the past two years for reorganising our own structure. We started with committee structure those attempts have foundered on intransigence over the whole nature of a review process. Even as late as last May we had the opportunity for restructuring a number of committees we flunked it. What in fact oh no. What came forward was the lowest common common denominator, the least er the least that could be agreed without any argument. It was a timid first step as to what, compared with what we ought to be doing. Well thank you indeed. If you'll allow it. Oh, you're too kind You're too kind. Now chairman. Chairman wants his tea. Chairman wants his tea not yet Mr . I do If we are going to deliver to the people to whom we as elected members owe the highest duty, that's the people who are in receipt of our services the sort of quality service that we, that they deserve then I have to say that we can have as many reports of this nature as we like, but you have got to acknowledge the need to change and you have got to stop resenting the rights of parents and governors to run schools, you've got to stop being obstructive to competitive tendering and you have got to stop arguing for the retention of services where it's patently obvious that there's over provision. Now but you don't have to but it in fact if, there's no point that's it get you do your arguing through the Chairman If you wish to continue or you wish to recreate a nineteenth century corporatist local authority that's fine. If you wish to deliver Inappropriate services at a higher cost than necessary to members of the public, that's fine. At least have the honesty to admit it and not to vote for an a management initiative that says we're gonna become an enabling authority and then it subsequently to deny every single measure that will allow that to happen. Thank you. Sorry Mr Thank you Chairman. Erm I heard er Professor have a go at cabinet government. Can I throw one back at him? Because one of the Liberal Democrat experiments in Tower Hamlets er devolving real power, real power to area councils or or community councils has suddenly backfired and allowed a noxious element to it, to creep in because, if I might just carry on. What happens is that the council is Liberal Democrat controlled and the area council is Labour controlled and these two fight and that's allowed the third obnoxious force to creep through so it's not just Conservative cabinet government that is the problem. Gentlemen, I I do want to make a point because I know we're not ready for elected Mayors or cabinet governments but I do think we c we can do a lot more to er improve our own internal workings here. Th there's still too much trivia on committee agendas. W we still seem to debate certain things three, four and five times they creep their way through to the main committee and full council and I have to say that the point in para B about the report we've been sent not recognising the reduction in local er government responsibilities it it is it's a bit rich, because our response to that report doesn't recognise that when I first arrived here Chairman we had the education department which was responsible for all the schools, six colleges of further education, college of art, college of agriculture, the teacher training college at and a major polytechnic. It had three education sub committees, a major education committee, numerous sub committees, working parties and all sorts. All that's now gone. Schools run themselves some have left the authority, we still have three education sub committees a major education committee, numerous sub groups and working parties and it's gone time we recognised the changing world and streamlined the members side of the education department in the same way that the officer side's been streamlined and slimmed down. Thank you Er, Mike Mrs Like insisting that tenant. you've spoken. I would like to Mrs , Mrs is speaking. Mrs is speaking Chairman, my point of order, my point of order I second and I reserve my remarks I was waiting to see if you called me last. Right. I assume you were asking me if I got any remarks last I got you down in sight yes. Thank you Chairman. I'd like to congratulate the officers and the members on the formulation of these decisions. All of them as far as paragraph B is concerned it deals with the reduction in local government responsibilities and the growth of non-elected bodies. Need I remind council about such things as charge capping the fact that the government wishes to remove non-elected members or a majority of them, from police committees. Need I remind council of the fact that the funding for grant maintained schools will be entirely in the hands of fifteen people that are nominated by the government and nobody else. No. And as far as non-elected bodies goes about two fifths of all public money is now spent by quangos who are not accountable to the people of this country in any way shape or form so I recommend all of these decisions, including paragraph B. It is absolutely essential that the democratic base of this country is not eroded in any way. There should be a majority of the citizens involved in the decision making of local government and national government. I and my colleague here have the pleasure and the privilege of serving on a vast majority of a Liberal Democrat erm local authority. Heaven help it if we or any other minority among a majority party, of any colour of any persuasion, was allowed to govern as an as an executive. That would be totally wrong and totally undemocratic and heaven help us if we ended back in the situation where we had a lady in number ten Downing Street who waved the hand bag at all and sundry without any thought at all for the democratic situation Can you be quiet please. The democratic base must remain as wide as possible and I commend all these paragraphs to council. Thank you. I'm advised that the Chairman can call the reserve, the speaker who reserved his remarks at any time. Now, I appreciate my, there wasn't time to overrule really but in this incidence do you wish to speak but if that point can be made so that it for future debate we know it. Right, would you want to speak, you reserved your remark. Not really, just to endorse the comments that councillor made. Every council, er every councillor on this authority is of equal value to the people who elected them er and to the electorate and their role is very much diminished by anything to do with a er executive erm er government of that nature. I endorse everything that was said and everything that said. Mr do you wish to reply? I must er thank Mr for really outlining what it's all about and cover all the issues because because Mr referred to no part being taken away. Mrs quite right, what about the quangos? They're growing up all over the place and as you say, Ernie he he he did say about education but whose gonna run education in the future same as social services, you'll soon find they'll social services up into the health service. The health service which we've ignored democratic likes of people just appointed. Is this wha what you want for the future? I think the I I'm pleased that this is in the in B, because let 'em know how we feel about it. We'll not follow these quangos, we're not for taking away the power, the power should mean at least we're accountable. Councils are accountable to the electorate and that's how it should be. Because because you say about, he is accountable to the people because the the councils win the ballot box. And the members? The members are accountable and let me go back about the committees. I make no apology for the number of committees that we have and I make no apology for the numbers on the committee. Because it makes sure that it is democratically run. Let me point out and another thing to that members are allowed to play as full a part in the decisions of this council. Because was before the observations of Mr it just that you're going back to cabinet government anyway cos you say t take a few on each committee, just have a few small committees and they'll do the job. I can tell you you're in for some trouble if you start that because I I is you you're all in trouble if you want to start these smaller committees, we have looked at the committees and as I say we make no apology for the number of committees or the number that's on 'em. But on the question of competitive tendering I think mentioned by Mr which he says we should have a different attitude. We will have a different attitude, we'll bear to watch what is happening in competitive tendering and to ask questions and to get the right the facts on competitive tendering because we found a lot of these round the competitive tendering don't you, don't you worry and we ain't finished with it yet I can tell you and also we have ev , the people who are, the in house, walking in the house, have a right to have some protection from it, to see that when we dole out those contracts that it least they are genuine and they've got a someone to see that that their interest is looked after. I would commend the motion as it stand Chairman and hope that the that the council will vote for it. And now I will take the vote. Those in favour please show. It think that's carried Chairman. Yes. those against. That's carried. That is carried right right, thank you. We will now have a tea break, back here at five and twenty to six. Right, I think we'll call them to order shall we. Yes, let's A thought er went, slipped by me er we must upon this council thank the committee staff that controlled the multitude outside, er they weren't trained for it but can the er thanks of this council for their endeavours in keeping the situation calm be recorded. Er, now then, next item er the Moat Centre Highfields youth er marked Mr . Chairman. Can I can I informally move section B on the policy and resources put forward. You can. Moat Centre and Highfield youth community centre because Chairman that there is er some amendments I'd formally move. Secretary has reserved the right to speak Chair. Amendments Amendments have we got. Amendment by Mr Erm, we feel we need to move this amendment, cos it appears to be the only way to actually get the council decision implemented Chairman and to avoid a continuation of the wrecking tactics used by the Labour group. Every time this matter's been before either committee or council there has been a majority in favour of the merger principles. The delay in making progress has blighted the development of the provision in the area and in particular, the leaking of the report of the problems of the moat centre has brought some dreadful headlines about the area and I hope whoever leaked that document is pleased with himself herself himself theirselves. Now, I understand Chairman that the Lib Dems have changed their minds now and succumbed to the demands of the Labour group I will not support this amendment. I I find this quite extraordinary Chairman after two years of consistently arguing and voting in committee and at council, they appear to have been bought off by the Labour group and now intend to to support a fudged half merger, half federation option. If they really believe that the merger was the best way forward, they must now be be supporting something that they know to be less than best and and this is now rendered all the bad feeling and all the destruction of the past two years, a complete waste of time. If this is what is offered as the advantage of a hung council, I fail to see the benefit. We remain convinced that full merger is the best way forward and the amendment will e enable the project to make progress If the Lib Dems have changed their mind Chairman and do support the forthcoming Labour amendment erm th the worst aspect for me is that I've lost a bet because Bob bet me a year ago that the Lib Dems would not last the distance and he's been proved right. Now what have we got. Mr . Thank you Chairman. I assume Chairman that that if this amendment is whether it is carried or not we should be debating the other amendments separately. Sorry I'm sorry I was, I was looking for speakers, I'm ever so sorry sorry Chairman. Yes. We we shall, if this amendment, whatever happens to this amendment the other amendment will be fought separately and it will be debated separately. there are no speakers on this so put the the amendment. Well may I, may I second it please Chair? If you yes Yep. Do you wish to speak on it? Yes please. I I do second it because if all aspects I actually supported, that is to say I support that the the first part of the of the amendment which is the motion from the policy and resources committee as well as the bit that has been er added on erm as far as the latter is concerned I support it, largely for the reason that Mr has explained. It is not a particularly satisfactory way of progressing I accept that. But on the other hand the delays that have been caused by procedural motions and I accept that that nevertheless contributed a great deal to added uncertainty and added unrest in the Highfields area. At one of the effects of that delay I suspect has been the need for the supplementary estimate which is measured, er mentioned in part B. A good part of that is I think, a consequence of the delay that we've had in implementing the wishes that this council has expressed before. Thirty seven thousand pounds is a lot of money it's a lot of money even compared with the five hundred odd thousand that's already in the revenue budget for er the operation of these two centres. It's even a lot of money I think compared with the what is it, one point four million pounds that is transferred th through the youth and community budget into the Highfields area and that itself is a lot of money when people recognise that we are actually spending the equivalent of one tenth of the total county youth and community budget in one area of the county. We had questions at the very beginning of this meeting which seems an awful long time ago now er asking for youth provision in other areas of the county. Well I'm sure that those other areas are, would be just as anxious of the people to have Can I have some respect for the speaker adequate youth and community provision in their areas. I know I would and I wouldn't blame anybody else for doing so. So, the situation in that is quite serious and it behoves us to take it seriously, it behoves us to make sure that if we are putting resources of that magnitude or of any magnitude perhaps, then we have to make sure that they are managed properly for the effective delivery of the services which we intend er that them to be used for. It's for that reason that I still support the original line which was to merge the centres with a common management structure headed by a single head of the project. That I support the addition that that we that we should get on with it as quickly as possible and I suppose also that I regret the support that the request for an extra thirty seven thousand or whatever it is pounds in order to enable that to be carried out. So therefore Chairman I I do in fact support the amended er motion. Professor Thank you Chairman. I agree with a great deal that has been said by Mr . He knows we have always been of the view that given the limited resources that the best cost effective use of those resources would be to merge the administration . But as he has also said,for longer that any of us care to remember all attempts at rational arguments over the best use of resources in Highfields have been drowned out by noise from the grinding of axes. Vested interests have defended the status quo with great skill and determination and they've had their axes sharpened using er sharpeners energised by the oxygen of Labour's irresponsible backing off. Money and effort that should have been devoted to supporting the ordinary people in Highfields has been wasted on power politics and I agree that it's time surely to put an end to that disgrace now there is a certain logic in Mr amendment, it basically says let us put the implementation of council policy in the hands of the director of education, let him take executive control and let us take politics out of it and if I thought that that would do what both Mr and myself want to happen I would support. But er unfortunately those on the ground who have shown their skill at wrecking anything that doesn't suit their purpose with the support of the Labour group, those on the ground will still be there and I don't believe that er giving the director of education the executive powers is going to stop them continuing to take the sort of action they've been taking. Nor do I actually think it's going to stop the Labour members of this council from continuing with their support. So I don't think that it's now the logical way forward. Furthermore Mr himself has said to me on more than one occasion that given the history of the situation it's unlikely that we would get anybody of sane mind to take over the running of the two centres. For that reason we will support the amendment that's been moved by Labour. Set a single head to a single head of the two buildings There will be a single budget which we've always argued for in the management committee the head of centre will and this is very important and I hope members are clear the head of centre which is the head of the Moat Centre which is the proposed under the amendment will be appointed within this financial year, will be appointed out of the existing budget. The reason why this amendment in my view is one that can take us forward is that it places responsibility now for clearing up the mess clearly where it belongs and that's with the Labour group. This is a Labour amendment it is up to them now to implement it implement it within existing budgets is what it says and we shall see whether they take their responsibilities as seriously as they should. Labour will now be on the line they will have to deal with the axe grinders instead of helping them to sharpen their axes and the difference between ourselves and Mr and I have great respect for Mr and I believe his attempt to keep the debate about the future of Highfields and Moat on a rational basis has been very positive but completely unsuccessful and I believe now that we have to look for a way forward. We are not being bought off by Labour. This is less than best but it's better than nothing, that's the point and it is very nearly what we have argued for from the very beginning. I think that Mr has lost his bet because we are a party who is not obsessed by ideology we are not prepared to act indefinitely like bulls in a china shop when the owners of the shop have an infinite supply of china We want to move forward and we want to move forward in the real world and the idea that a strong government and sticking to what you want through thick and thin when clearly you're not going to get the result you want, as indeed the government did over the poll tax, in the end you have to recognise the reality the Labour group, as much as anything else, are part of that reality. The responsibility will now be theirs and they'd better get on with it and better show things that they've been arguing and get along. Mr . I was er a little lost there er Mr Chairman. Do I understand you are handing over your responsibilities to the Labour group, washing your hands of them. You said twice just now it's up to the Labour to put this into effect. Now I don't call that er er democracy, that's a washing of the hands er I've followed with interest this Moat Centre which as you know is w w , is one of Highfield's many village halls erm For those of you that don't know can I remind you that in the last few years one million pounds of capital was spent on Moat Centre alone on the cost together the moment of running Moat Centre for Highfield's youth is five hundred thousand a year. ridiculous waste of money Now I suggest that the Labour and the Liberal think very carefully about this. You might get a backlash you might find that the rest of the citizens of this county want to know, want to know what on earth you're doing pouring money into this area when the rest of the county gets nothing. They'll also want to know why you're doing it, when there's been constant obstruction for two years. There's a supplementary estimate here. I'm delighted to have given them two er security men does it mean security men are now available for all the county? If any of us have got troubles at our schools where there's vandalism, will you provide us, at the tax payer's expense,with a security man? You pour the money into this, it's bounced back on you but as usual there is no limit. I've heard members from the other side say money doesn't matter this is democracy. This is what the people want and money must not interfere with their wishes. That only seems to apply in the Highfields area. I suggest that the Labour and particularly Liberal feel, think very carefully about the quality of service that is provided by this county er council cos at the moment there is neither justice or equity in it. There are areas that are just what they want things passed on the hoof. left, right and centre when anyone else outside these areas wants it we're told no money, no capital, can't be spent this year, wipe it off and I think you should be very careful or you might have a backlash where you least want it. Thank you. Mr Thank you Chairman. Erm I think really for Mr to talk about washing of hands er he's got some brass neck when I remember every year, every year I mean hopefully he won't be able to do this next year, what does he say it's your budget and he looks over there your budget, you implement it. If that's not washing of hands I'm not too sure what is. Er, Chairman erm, I do believe that this has always been an issue erm of vested interests and bureaucracy administration but all I want to say to members of the council today as a member of the youth and community advisory committee is that extremely serious er far reaching decisions are gonna have to be taken because we were told at the last meeting of that sub committee that just to stand still because of the changes in legislation regarding transfer of funds to the er F E funding council, we will lose a further two million pounds next year so even if we er do not have to find any cuts within our own budget that money is going out of this authority's budget it may come back in in commissioning agreements but because of the different timescale that the funding council works on we probably won't know that when we come to set our budget and really the issue for the Labour group I think in particular as councillor has said, is the question of budgetary control. Because I I would say that all members of the council face those kinds of cuts. Faced with those kind of possible reductions in service, if there is a penny one penny more than necessary spent on administration and bureaucracy wherever it is in the youth and community programme that is gonna be less money for front line vision and the Labour group can have to think very, very carefully about that and the issue is gonna be that if we're spending too much money or if they're coming back to supplementary estimates which won't be available er given the financial situation next year if we're having two heads of centres or whatever when we could have one that is gonna mean less money for front line services to the people of Highfields and there'll only be one group that will be responsible for that, if that does come about and I think that's something that we all need to bear in mind because what we were told as members of that committee is that the youth and community budget is gonna be in for some very serious times in the future and it's mainly the government's fault because of the way they've decided to re-organise the situation it's going out of our hands into the control of an unelected body and like most members of this council I think we would oppose that but that's the reality of the situation and I could not support any increase of funds er for any community centres if I knew it was simply gonna be spent on administration. Thank you. Mr Could I have Mr Chairman cos it's a, is it an order of government to support Mr at the same time or should I do . No just deal with this and let their deal with the amendment as it is. As it is. I'm sorry come again clarify I said would it,in order now just to deal with the amendment on my own sir or support Mr at the same time? We've only got this one. No we've got the other amendment but it's not been moved yet. It's not been moved. No you'll have to deal with this one because the other one has not been moved yet. Right, I'll deal with this one I I'll deal with this one and be very careful as I say. I I wanted to make three points really. Er, I did at the last council urge that we actually needed to break the deadlock my er a and I thought that was very important. I was ruled out of order, I erm I there were point out then that twenty five new councillors and I understand it wasn't legitimate if I wanted to to restrict the vote only to those twenty five so that the rest of you would actually realise that this has gone on far too long, I only put that as a I think it is very, very important erm that we break new ground. At the last council meeting we did two things or two things have happened. One, we set up a w er er a working group which has brought together that consultation addressed that consultation argument and I would point out that Mr amendment er does clearly enshrine that as obviously something which is now seen as useful, er and I think that's important. The thing I don't like about this amendment is it actually moves us nowhere and we cannot after what we've seen over the summer, move nowhere. Now those of us who've been involved on the Moat Highfields sub committee will have a need to know that when we were faced with really serious and horrendous problems, we found when faced with the reality and a great deal of detailed information, that an extraordinary amount of three party cooperation was achieved. It resulted in the erm extra requirement for security which does happen to which Mr has referred and I I think it's it's very very important to realise that if that three party cooperation can be achieved as it should be, bearing in mind what Simon says that we are going to have to do this, with horrendous problems in the youth and community project in the future and we would be failing completely in our duty, not just to the people of Highfields,but to the people of this whole county if we simply allowed politics, as has been done in the past, to lead to entrenched positions and the idea of simply saying to the director, we are in a mess therefore will you please deal with it all is I think wildly irresponsible and I'm very very surprised indeed that erm that point should be put. The reasoned, the reasoned proposals which are contained in a very thought out amen which has in fact contains ideas submitted by many different people of different persuasions to try and ensure that ideas could be erm worked at solidly does break the endless delays. It means that there is a way of going forward, the only question that remains was that head of project as Professor said who is in their right mind would want to erm, apply for such a job at the moment, it's probably an unworkable idea. If in the future the single management committee on the two headed centre decide that they want a single headed project then only Pharuk hearing which I always subscribe to that it should be decided locally, they may have that said project I'm sure you'd agree, if they choose to have such one, if they feel that they need it, but we want to ensure, do we not, and the amendment doesn't do this that we actually get a move on, that we spend the money we have, what little there is and there is very little on delivering the services, that we fuse the bureaucracy which is clearly contained in the other and, clearly contained, it's spelt out in in in in tablets of stone in a way that's never been done before. It is extremely positive it sta , it clears these points up and and answers most of these questions so I would urge Mr Chairman that to on sheer education, on terms of provision of services, I'm not party to all of the politics , I agree with what you said, absolutely crazy. I would however I I with great trepidation as I don't think I've ever dared do it before, er is try to actually clarify the thoughts of my leader erm it is not erm, have I your permission erm I I I feel I feel he may, I feel that may have been a professional slip of the tongue i in saying that now be up to Labour, it is not up to Labour at all, it is up to all of u , it is up to all of us, it is up to all of us all, and you and you and you, you can't dump responsibility, it is up to all of us, all of us to work together and deliver an effective result because nobody gains anything in the eyes of the people of this county by allowing this thing to go on and on and on and what they feel is if we can't get to grips with it what on earth are we doing with our existence. That is why the amendment is a far, far better thing than this rather grubby amendment we have before us. Mr Thank you Mr Chairman. I've followed the events of of this erm unhappy but hardy perennial some time now erm I've found it unusual because there was no Liberal volte face until now and er quite a lot of things happened where the Liberals changed their mind and I naturally started to wonder what has happened to make this change of mind come about and all I'll say is I hope that it doesn't have much to do with events in other counties or with any by-election. Ooh, ooh, at least we have a mind. Thank you yes, are there I think this is unique er a unique occasion where we haven't got a Labour speaker so if there's no Labour speaker then Right, we'll press on those in ing I accept that. But Put those against. Those against the amendment is lost just. We now move have we another amendment? Yes the purple paper. The purple paper the mover please. Mr I've been I've been advised chair that I've made the same mistake as you did so. They're so particular aren't they sometime but there you are Chair, Chairman I'm grateful er from the indications that have been already made by a number of speakers that they are amenable to the contents of this amendment. Can I can I say before I do launch into the amendment to Mr that you have played your card at the last election and the Leicestershire public has resoundedly given their answer to your particular policies. So I don't think anyone here as an elected member, needs to defend their positions if they wish to move from a political or a bureaucratic policy to something which is more pluralist and much more representative of the kind of policies that this council should be discussing not only now but also in the future. No one has to defend anything to anyone. Chair and and at the same time can I say that you do not equate elitist views and pleasures and pastimes that they may have down in the county somewhere with the kind of deprivation that people face in the inner cities. You do not equate that, it is irresponsible and I'm s , I'm sorry that the these remarks were made earlier. Chairman, can I say briefly that the merger and I'm quite pleased that we've finally er there is a death knell to this this awful word, it's been bandied on for far too long, it's been perhaps the single most controversial issue that has been debated by this authority along with some other mediocre issues and no one here would not admit er to the fact that it has been opposed on such massive scale and even today we've had a further petition of three hundred and ninety five people opposing er this this this dreadful merger decision that was hanging over the er the the two centres and I'm pleased that er this this er amendment, this er er erm this petition was brought forward today because it does indicate the continuing support and opposition to er the the kind of things that we should be doing and and those that we shouldn't. Can I also say Chairman that there is now a possibility of implementing a semblance of a federated provision er which will take into account and recognise the very important needs of that particular area. Importantly as it's highlighted in the petition. The much valued community education services offered by the multi-cultural family orientated Highfields youth and community centre and the kind of development of services that could take place at the Moat, Moat centre. Now, we hear time and time again of the one million capital that was spent and yes and I do hope that the provisions that will now be made through a combined budget which Mr seems to think is half a million but I can assure you it is not half a million however, I do I can further reassure him that by the time the Highfields er and Moat management committee have gone through with this it will be half a million, there will be a proper budget provision as it should have been in the last five to six years. Unfortunately that hasn't been the case. Chairman, er I don't want to prolong the debate because as I've mentioned before there is indicated support from a number of people er but I'm grateful er to the Liberals in the fact that they feel that they are in a position to support this amendment. Much more importantly, not only does it preserve the integrity of the people of Highfields but I guess in many ways it preserves the integrity of both the parties concerned while moving and supporting this particular amendment. Can I say finally Chairman, that I will be instigating a er a request er I shall be requesting I should say perhaps to the director of education that erm the three party spokesman on the management committee and all those officers who will be involved in implementing this decision will get together at the earliest and I'm citing possibly next week so that we can be on our way to plan the next step forward to a concrete implementation of this particular proposal. That's how serious we are and although Mr er has to give his little laugh but I hope that he is just as much serious er particularly now that the political realities are that we will have a way forward, of not only supporting the delivery and management of community education services in that particular area but a clear focus has now been given, hopefully after this amendment er has been carried to the education authority. Thank you Chairman. Have we a seconder? Right Mr Chairman, I've listened with erm interest to Professor erm weasel words explaining that he didn't mean what he's been saying for the past three years and trying to explain away what he's effectively and he might as well admit it a complete volte face worse than that his agreement to an arrangement which he knows is second best. I also listened to Mr I didn't understand what he was saying but I did listen to him er the bit that I did er catch was his denial that erm the revenue budget for Moat and Highfields was half a million well he's quite correct because I've got the figures here. They're in fact five hundred and one thousand, one hundred and thirteen and if Mr is erred by one thousand one hundred and thirteen pounds I would hope he'd forgive him, the fact is that this year's budget for those two buildings er, is that amount. Er, er Mr might have added that er the village hall management committees which er he has a great affection would not be unhappy if they had the sum of five hundred and one thousand one hundred and thirteen pounds with which to provide sources, er resources for the communities that he represents. Chairman er in his remarks a bit earlier on Professor said that he did not think it was appropriate to give executive power to the director of education I wrote your words down at the time he did not think it appropriate to give executive power to the director of education and he said, despite Mr 's clarification you want to move a bit nearer if you're going to be his minder Mr that in fact he didn't that Liberals are incapable of sustaining er the same argument in committee, er sub-committee, main committee and council and I have to say er that erm er placing a bet with Ernie was taking money off children. And I'm I'm I I'm I'm delighted er I shall be encouraging them to pay up promptly. Now I do ask myself this this question erm I can recognise the argument that if you if you're not actually going to achieve your objectives you have to change your mind. I'm surprised that comes from er er Professor and his party who have for example campaigned for years for proportional representation, they know they're not gonna get it but are they gonna change their mind? Precisely either Professor and his party believe in the that certain courses of action are right, that they espouse certain policies or they become hopeless opportunists. Now we on these benches have suspected that in fact the Liberals are hopeless opportunists for a number of years. Leave that to John Major Er what I need er er and is helpful er, it would be helpful if Professor could give some confirmation of this. Because it's quite clear from hereafter there is a moral to be learned for this saga. All you need to do is to be sufficiently obstructive for a sufficiently long time and and his mates will turn around and throw up their hands and shak and and turn somersaults. Now er I have to warn him there are that sort of conduct has been indulged in to the detriment of the people of Highfields over a significant period by the Labour party. I have to warn Professor that there's more than one party can play that game and if he thinks that it is sensible to run the affairs of this council on deliberate obstructionism on the basis that if you go on long enough you can wear people down then I think it's unfortunate, it's bad for this council bad for the people we serve, it does frankly nothing for local government and I can't blame central government if it loses patience So I recognise at the end of the day that erm Mr has had troubles with some of his erm er newcomers he obviously needs to re-establish some control over his group. I could recognise. I can I can rec I can recognise when when the and tail are are wagging the dog. Ooh, ooh, hiss He needs to get his act together because if this continues then it will be Moat today and it'll be other issues tomorrow and frankly the business of this council will grind to a halt. I think to support this motion is desperately unfortunate for a number of reasons. Thank you Bob, you certainly, you certainly get us some fresh speakers in and Mr . I think that to support this motion would be extremely unfortunate and would lead to potential disaster, not for the county council but indeed for the Highfields community. I'm not surprised that Mr is happy to propose it because in fact it actually means that the status quo will in fact be cemented that that the situation that we've been faced with will in fact be enshrined and supported by the council and and the Labour party have been consistently advocating that really a and they will get their way if this motion is passed. I have to say that I hope Mr in fact didn't actually write the words of the motion it looks to me and those members of the education committee will know what I mean like another version of the Docklands back garden fudge. When somebody tried to fudge an iss tried to correct that embarrassment by totalling fuddi fudging an issue. Because what will happen if this motion is implemented. There will be a budgetary meeting of the county council, the education committee will sort out its youth and community budget and it will decide just how much it wishes t to to put to the combined centres. The management committee will meet and it will divide the money into two and give each one however much the management committee feels that it should have and that management committee need not meet again for twelve months because there will be nothing for it to do. The two issues, the two places will be operated separately. If any party on the management committee doesn't like the split it will five member it back through the whole structure to this county council and we shall have proceeded no further. Instead of having a working arrangement it is, will in fact be a total administrative disaster. I suspect that if I had to find an alternative to what we've already proposed and what we've constantly supported, I would actually go right back to the, I would actually go right back to the beginning erm because it would be cleaner and it would be clearer. There is no way in which any of us can, can advocate responsibility for the decision. There is no way that any party, there is no way that the Liberal party can say to the Labour party or to anyone else, well we'll support you, we think you're getting in a mess but it's your problem, you can carry it because that roughly is what they actually said and if it does go wrong, as it is sure that it will I am quite sure that it will be quite wrong to blame the Labour party entirely for that process, because it won't be entirely their fault. I therefore have no hesitation whatever in opposing this this total and absolute fudge. There are two members I think have spoken from the Liberal benches concerning funding bureaucracy and I would agree entirely with what that means but they've also mentioned in the same bet, budgetary control and if you're going to control budgets, you have to have a minimal amount of bureaucracy and the function really of the head of the er of the project, er the head of the the post that's now slipped into oblivion with this motion, would actually have been to do two things it would have been to hold the two groups together and it would have been to have overall control of that budget and it wouldn't have been easy and I wouldn't have like the job and I wouldn't've applied for it and certainly would have been very difficult indeed. But this really was the only way forward that I can see. So there Chairman, all I can do is deplore the situation that we've look like arriving at, I think it's the worst of all possible worlds. N Chairman. It ill behoves the party of the famous poll tax U-turn to lecture the Democrats on consistency. Here, here Erm, anyway that goes without saying I think. Chair, I I think what needs to be said in this debate is something positive about the work that has come out of particularly Highfields, er and indeed to some extent Moat, in the past. There's a lot of extremely good youth and community work has come out of Highfields youth and community centre in the past. Here, here. We have had committed staff we've had committed voluntary workers there and there's an awful lot of good practice which can still be upon, within that centre. To do that you're going to need the good will of the workers within the centre, the local community, the workers within Moat and the different factions within Moat and the one thing that the Tory line did was to unite all those factions against what the county council wanted. No matter what Bob says or Harry or any other member of the Conservative group, and I accept that they've always been consistent on it the same as the Labour group has always been consistently against the merger I accept that they've been consistently in favour of a total merger. But politics is the art of achievable and what the Tories wanted was not achievable on the ground. Indeed it could have led to great problems. I was annoyed really to hear Harry speak and I I don't normally get annoyed with my friend Harry from Loughborough er, but I was annoyed to hear him talk of disaster if there is any disaster involved in this we are averting disaster today and this is a significant decision of the county council to move forward. All the other decisions that were taken were bound to be opposed by the local community, the local youth and community staff and so on. It was known at the time that there was going to be opposition to them and it was an absolute recipe for debate after debate, council meeting after council meeting, committee meeting after committee meeting. Those of us who sat on the urban policies committee for a number of years seeing Moat devour and all the stoppages and problems there, knew that you were taking the wrong line. The officers never recommended to us that we should have a lock stock and barrel merger. The officers recommended federation and something similar to federation is what is on the table now. What I would say is this three things. One,the director of education has now got, and his staff, have now got to accept that they are no barriers to prevent moving forward on a linked, a form of linked centres. The second point is that the staff and the community, with the support of the Labour group and now the Democrats, have finally got a compromise solution which may not give them everything but again gives them what is achievable within the political complexion of this council and they must now accept that there is an onus upon them to make it work and thirdly we have got to make sure that the staffing arrangements that are referred to in here and I quote there there'd be posts for each centre who will be expected to add each with staff teams to coordinate the delivery of services by the two centres. There has got to be a willingness on the part of all the groups on this council and the officers of the various connected departments of this council to make sure that those teams are given the utmost support in delivering the youth and community service that the Highfields area needs and deserves. The framework is there we, I think, know what the decision is going to be today. Let's not chance that decision, let's all move forward together and cooperate and make it work. Let's not have sniping from the Tory benches once we've taken this decision. It has the sup the general support. Maybe the grudging support of part of the community. But it can work and it will work with our support. There's a lot of good practice to build upon in Highfields. Now we must do it. Mr Thank you very much Mr Chairman. I think erm Mr was indulging in er very interesting political rhetoric during his speech. Here, here I'd be very interested to know er in terms of U turns which I'll come back to, how he's going to deal with the next item on the agenda er, whereby the Liberal Democrats have been consistent about their policy in general with a lot of obstruction and being caused problems and how Mr will agree in this chamber to actually close some people's homes, old people's homes Thank you friends, we all know him as the one million pound councillor. He's cost us, cost us a million pounds in the first year he was a councillor. Now with regard to this particular thing, er this particular motion. You have to come to a conclusion and Professor er described how we've had to come to a conclusion. The the options seem to me, as Mr Mr said that the thing had got so convoluted and confused that the simple option seemed to be close it all down and I I would imagine that groups, other than ourselves who've had people like me in the group who've said why are this thing coming up again, let's close it down and have done with it. That is the easy option, that's the option of people who've got nothing between the ears. People who have intelligence and a conscience wrestle with these problems and we've come to a conclusion which is as good a deal as we think we can get, with the people of the area and with the Labour party and I think he said that if people in this authority are sufficiently obstructive for a sufficiently long time then people will change their minds. But there's another side to that. If people are obstructive long enough you listen and you think well, why are these people being obstructive. Are they, are they have they, are they stupid, have they gone totally mad and they're obstructing this thing for ever and ever and ever just for the sake of obstructing and you have t to listen to what they say on on this, the argument that we're having here and have had here and the argument that we've had about old people's homes, they've been two running sores in this authority and hopefully today in both of them we'll be making progress and I think I'd like to. Here, here Thank you and I think I'd like to just point out to Mr . He's always fore he's forever contrasting er these these er centres in Highfields with his village halls and er small village halls and that and that's very, the very truth, I'd like to refer him and he knows as well as I do that what he should really be comparing with are the youth and community provision across the county which is an enormous amount in excess of the amount we put into old people's homes and as Mr so rightly said, they're problems were gonna have to grapple with in the future and so you then look at what has been suggested, what has been proposed and the point that Professor made about the Labour party having to make it work, is because it is they and everybody knows it's they have been five membering this thing all the way through. Now, now they are putting their name to to some positive action. Now we we and the Conservatives in in the past have been in favour of a decision and a positive action and we would have seen it through. It's only the Labour party who's obstructed it so now they're putting their name to this, they're the ones who've changed, they're putting their name to something different and therefore they're gonna have to live with it and if you look at it what have we got? What we've got is two centres working together with a member management sub-committee they've retained the power to determine future management and staffi and staffing arrangements based on the principles set out below. So if that management committee decides in a year's time or two year's time thank you when when we've been rolling on a bit and a lot of this has died down that they want a single headed project. We will go ahead and do it and local people will own the problem and own the project and if they want to continue to have two separate administrations it would show in the budget and I don't think Mr 's right. I don't think that management committee will meet, divide the money in two and then race off and never meet for another year. I think they will manage these project together and over time they will come together and they will work together. Thank you. Mr Thank you Chairman. I would like to support the amendment and I would like to speak especially now the crocodile tears from the Tory party concern for the Highfield. Four speakers from the Tory party mentioned the damage will be for the Highfield area. How many times shall I stand up and lecture them about Highfield, I don't know. I have been here for more than two years I have lectured them. I have told them time and time again and the people have endorsed them and endorsed in voting pattern by giving me eighty nine percent of the vote. Last April. How many times shall I remind them that. How many times I just don't understand. On the amendment side I am reluctant it does infringe on a local democracy but I agree with the Liberal Democrats, it's a way forward and it's a responsibility of all of us I I agree with Roger when he mentioned that Professor mentioned that this is the Labour party like usually always mentioned it is your budget when the budget is approved it is the whole county council budget every member should be responsible for it. Not just one party or central party or the third party. How many of you know what transpired yesterday this time outside Moat Centre. How many of you know that? There was a woman who was assaulted,the Turks from the restaurant came down and beat a single man outside the Moat Centre. For Mr when he mentioned two security staff, they were er bystanders, they didn't do nothing whatsoever. Yes,we should sack him. We should all of us be responsible for that building, not just myself or yourself. Everyone should demand if the security guards are not functioning their duty we should not let them go by so Who insisted what? What. Don't get into arguments, carry on with your speech. Unfortunately this is the way the Tory always play their ploys on Highfield, they always think they are the champions of Highfield issue unfortunately they do not know what transpired in that area, they do not know the deprivation in that area. Mark market might think a backlash they, they'd better look for himself to remind himself there's no backlash in Highfield. If you support the amendment it is a way forward for all of us and I support the amendment. Thank you Chairman. Mr Thank you Chair. Can I first of all thank er Mr for his er his concern about my having to er deal with new young members. Could I in return could I Could I in return commiserate with him for not having any new members? beg to differ Because,because I I do feel sorry, I I sorry I consider it for not having any young new members. But I do feel I do feel that er he will be, he will be assisted by having close people to clarify his thoughts for the council members. Now erm if he had any as somebody says, well no I think he has some thought er simply Might not be the correct ones. Simply confused. Erm, I think the charge that has been laid against myself personally and my myself and my colleagues is the charge of vacillation and changing our mind and I and I am grateful to c my colleague David for reminding us that we have in this county had two years two years when the Labour party and the Conservative party have been hand in glove, absolutely determined that the way forward in relation to homes, elderly persons homes, not that's not to close any and now we've had a complete volte face when they've changed their minds and they've come along with us. How interesting. Mr has also asked me whether it is true that if I can't get what I want second best will do. I think the argument should be put slightly differently. Would you prefer to have nothing rather than something? Because for two years for two years the intentions of the Conservative group, which have been the intentions of ourselves have delivered on the Moat Highfield questions, delivered nothing. That is the reality of what er Mike said and I'm sorry he pinched my line politics is the art of the possible and that is a message I'm afraid that the Conservatives on this council have never adopted. time and time again they sit on the sidelines saying this is what we think don't talk to us about it don't debate it, don't ask us to think about it, take it or leave it, if you don't give us what we want we'll sit back and moan and sulk and they've played, I think that's a very irresponsible line they've played in the five years I've been on this council and I hope that er again the issue on the next item on the agenda represents a change of heart on their behalf. of course goes on about what he always goes on about and er I would remind him that the supplementary estimates which is in the amendment here, is also in the amended motion which is proposed by the Conservatives and had all party support on every committee that it's come to. Finally I I would say that to erm Mike I think the amendment that is now before us which we are supporting goes considerably further than the original federative option. And has a combined budget which is in my view, the important thing that I believe was necessary in the life of the economic circumstances . That combined budget will inevitably involve a redistribution of resources you are going to live up to what you are now putting your name to. I don't think that Mr remarks were helpful. Because I don't think the question of what's going on outside Moat Centre today or yesterday or the day after, has a lot to do with the actual alternatives that we've been . What it does have a lot to do with is that the Moat Centre has not had clear significant management on the ground and what we're proposing here today should produce that in the very near future and what the proposals that Mr proposals would have done is not produced that in the significant future and I think that's the point that really needs to be stressed. Thank you. Mr It's not my day really earlier today I had to admit to being grateful to John Gummer now I'm gonna have to be. I know it's terrible isn't it I never thought I'd say that. Now I'm gonna have to say I'm gonna be grateful to Mr it's a really bad day. No I am grateful to Mr because he's finally crystallised in my mind something that's been bugging me the longer I stay on this council about exactly what the Tories see their role here as and it's now very clear to me, more than ever and that is that if you want to be obstructive and negative and if you go on long enough being obstructive and negative what you can end up doing is that you'll find yourself eventually in a position going on long enough that you can make totally meaningless speeches but at least you'll get nice headlines in the paper and that seems to me the whole essence of the Tory strategy. When my colleague to my right here, Roger and myself put forward a motion at last council on this issue ably led by our glorious leader to my left I would like to say that we've set up. Now what I would like to say is that we've made clear that we're with certain very clear objectives in pushing forward, in saying that certain things had to be achieved and when I read the lilac piece of paper or whatever colour we want to call it. I see a set of conclusions that achieve almost everything that was demanded at that time and I am grateful to everybody concerned who's actually sat down and actually really thought about what we're trying to do and everybody has made some compromise here and I shall certainly support this amendment and I shall make the compromise because the one thing in here that I thought was necessary that isn't there is the statement that there will be a head of centre and having actually worked in a project, head of sorry, head of project and having actually worked in a situation where I was a joint manager erm in the long run I think people will see the the wisdom of of a single head of project. But that's up fo that's up to people experience t t t t to conclude. But the main there 'ere is, we haven't actually changed our position we have actually stated clearly that we wanted to achieve something, we wanted to make sure that what was being provided in that community was the best best thing possible within the resources available and that things developed on This amendment takes us that way forward and we are at least being clear to our principles rather than just being negatively obstructive. Mr Thanks Chair. I just like to start off by saying and just reminding the council well in particular Mr in light of what he said that he doesn't understand what Mr is on about, well he's never understood the issue of the merger in Highfields. Mr has made more publicity on this issue than any other councillor. I think there's no issue in his patch that he might want to talk about. But he's made national headlines local and every other headlines that comes about regarding this issue of the merger. But I think in seconding this motion I think it's a way forward and I think it's better late than never I think what it talks about that we would not be here today Mr Chairman if this would have been agreed by what was put by the officers two and half years ago. It's not a federated system, it actually, positively talks about moving forward as Professor states it in the economical situation the council is in. It talks about one budget covering for the two centres and it also talks about two heads of centres which is more practicable and more rational than any other s situation that would have been if the merger decision would have stayed. There has never been an argument put by anyone to convince myself or people who have protested against the merger, a rational argument has never been put against what people have said that the merger is a rational way forward. I think it would have been a disaster and a recipe for disaster because practically if you know what the situation is in the Moat Centre and the Highfields youth and community centre then people would have never resisted to that change. I'm not saying that people would have never changed their ideas but if it would have been done in the manner that it would have been done in in the first place and if people would have been told about their future lives and if people had been, would've accepted what was going on in light of all the decisions that have been taken previously regarding the merger issue. I think these proposals not only are a way forward but also in light of what is actually happening in the area of Highfields with er the high numbers of unemployment, with the high rate of people underachieving in education I think for the last two and a half years there has been no clear guidelines or structure that has systematically brought about any results in the two centres to move forward where people have lost out by this issue being bureaucratic and a political football that's being kicked about and I think it's about time where we now have cross party consensus that we move positively forward and work towards these proposals. I mean in so I I come here today with a petition that I presented that also talks about proposing to abolish the merger, I mean this is a move just one step away from that but I still feel in what was proposed at the last full council meeting and I would express my views to the officers that in light of what has been suggested today is actually implemented to the wording as it stands because the joint working party that had been er written up previously never did meet although if I can inform it was only the officers who actually met up and I hope that in light of all the working group and the two heads of centres covering for each other would be implicitly applied. In light of er Near time all the consultation that also talks about in this paper is met with the two centres, the management committee of Highfields youth and commune centre and also the users of the Moat Centre and I think in light of everything that's gone on I think it's substantially a success to stand here and say that we have at least achieved some result and I I formally would welcome the Libs supporting this this afternoon and I'm grateful for the turn that the Libs have made and in light of er what er Mr the involvement Mr has put in. Time time time now please. Thank you. Thanks Chair. Mr do you wish the right of reply. No it's Mr Mr Not really Chair . I'm mean we've discussed it often but I I would be grateful if we could It's Mr I'd hate to stop Mr in full cry Okay then chairman I I would er recommend that we support the amendment moved by Mr . Right, those in favour. Welcome back. Right, this week an Army lieutenant was jailed for fifteen months after a court martial heard him plead guilty to seven charges relating to bullying and humiliating new recruits. The sentence on the Staffordshire Regiment officer is subject to confirmation but the question we're asking is how often are other recruits subject to bullying and intimidation? Brigadier, how often? Well of course I can't possibly give you any figure of how often, but bullying occasionally happens in the Army. And may I say very clearly and unequivocally at the outset, that it is abhorrent when it does happen to us because there's no place for it, quite simply because er it is counterproductive to cohesion, and cohesion is the basis for operational effectiveness, and when there is an incident of bullying then we very promptly and thoroughly investigate it, and that investigation is followed, if there's a case to be brought, by a trial of the chap that's guilty. And may I say also Please do. that we're well aware of the fact that when we're doing this, of course there's usually a degree of adverse publicity. That is subordinate to the business of routing out the cancer where it occurs. from you than the statement you've just made er and I think you'll be you used the word abhorrent, I think you'll be abhorred by some of the er stories you're about to hear. If I can come to you Andrew , you were in the Royal Highland Fl Fusiliers, what That's correct. happened to you? Basically the full time I was in basic training and when I went to the Regimental the Royal Highl Fusiliers Regiment the first battalion, I was physically beaten and mentally tortured er into the same bargain. Well what do you mean by mentally tortured? Well they can physically do it to you with use of fists, use of hands and whatever else they've got and they can mentally do it to you like put you in jail that or all sorts of things like when I was on sick leave, they came and lifted me. Right well t t tell me about the physical abuse, what sort of things were they doing to you Andrew. Beat ya up. N C Os, noncommissioned officers beat ya up, and a above them as well. You get So in a battle camp, you're supposed to be learning how to fight in a war and basically they beat ya up, and in camp as well, it happens in camp too. And did did you see th w was it widespread, did you see it happening to other people? It's very widespread. Actually I witnessed a guy being raped in the Army. That was by that was by normal recruits but it still happens it, actually the the bullying goes down the line. The N C Os bully, the officers bully the N C Os, the N C Os bully the privates and the privates bully the privates. It goes down the line, all the way down the line. It's a nons it's a non If you're bullied, you bully somebody else Aye. and so on and so on? let me just get back that was abhorrent as a word w has already been used and er should be used again by what you said, you saw s somebody being raped by two soldiers. Did you try and help that particular soldier? I did, I did, I s actually put a stop to it. That's So that was a brave thing to do? I wouldn't say it was brave it was a normal thing to do, wasn't brave, there was nothing brave about that. Was just a normal thing to do You'd expect yeah y you'd expect somebody to do that for you of course. Of course I would. Did you find wh when you were being bullied or when other people were being physically intimidated that other soldiers would help them or would they just stand by and let it happen? Basically you'd er just stand back and ha Actually in my platoon of fifty men it happened to me more than it happened to anybody else because I came from Glasgow. Oh he's a Glasgow hard man let's get him. I came from a rough area so that's the way it worked. So they find your particular weakness, your Achilles heel and th they'd go for that. Brigadier, evidently and we've heard lots and lots of these stories, and you've said you think it's the occasional example but you're doing all you can to stamp it out, but evidently the Army is a haven for bullies, sadists and rapists. Well it's not of course, that's absolute rubbish and of the cases that we'll have here tonight, each of them if they are true are very very er unfortunate indeed,an and I wouldn't condone any of them if they're true. The fact is of course that what we're seeing here is a tiny minority of people, and I could bring thousands of people here tonight who've been in the services, thousands of parents of those people who've been in the services, who would give you a very very different story. So I think we should get it in perspective. We're seeing just a few cases and I don't deny the fact that occasionally there are bullies in the Army. But there's certainly not a haven for bullies or no nor is it endemic in any way at all. Well some people would claim it is endemic. Some people would actually claim that there is a culture of bullying within the military infrastructure. But let's t let's t Well I would deny that Well let's talk let's talk to Richard . Richard er er h these are occasional examples and they're very very rare. I would disagree with that. I would disagree with that a lot. Well what's your experience? Well erm apart from my own experience erm I witnessed, I couldn't even m er name as many erm instance of bullying that went on in my regiment erm and for all different kinds of reasons you know. Erm in my regiment I was in You were in the Grenadier Guards? I mean I was the on I was the only black guy in the regiment erm for a very long time and erm you know it didn't it doesn't matter what colour you are erm apart from my case, there was if you was erm if you were slow on your runs or you wasn't good at at cleaning your kit you would get bullied. And it was severe bullying. And it wasn't a case of just a few beatings and that it was just disgusting stuff you know. What sort of stuff? Well I mean there was an incidence where erm maybe a guy who didn't clean himself very often they would er a whole group of guys would find it funny to take him into the toilet erm fill a bath up with half with water, put bleach in it erm excrete in it, urinate in it and put him in hit, hit him with ba erm brushes, all kinds of stuff like that. Let's let's make it clear. Are these occasional examples that you're They weren't occasional at all, not in my regiment, no. And this was in training as well. But is this not something you just have to put up with if you join the Army? It's it's part of the toughening up process . No I do no, that's rubbish. I don't who said that but that's rubbish. That i it doesn't toughen you up at all. It doesn't toughen you up, it just turns you into a bag of nerves basically. Aha. You've got two choices, you either stay and you take it or you leave. If you leave, you get caught, you get put in jail. If you leave do you feel you've lost? I mean there is a school of thought that Yeah. says if you can't take how would you be able to handle the front line . If you leave, if you leave let's say if you get caught and sent back then you're gonna get back you know twice as much as you had for the reason for leaving. Have you learnt anything from the experience? Yeah I've learnt a lot basically, I've learnt erm erm basically what sort of organization that is and those other ones I could mention as well which run along the same sort of lines erm I've learnt to look after myself Has it toughened you up? Yeah it has. So some people might say perhaps perversely that it th it has achieved its desired effect, it's toughened you up . I think that depends on the individual. Well David Lightbown I mean er the brigadier said that these are very very occasional examples but from these stories that these gentlemen are telling us, and who are we to disbelieve them,the they make their claims, this is a very very serious problem in the Army. Perhaps some sensitivity is n needed for our young recruits, perhaps a a type of counselling is needed to help them? Would you agree with that? No I don't. Erm I go along with the brigadier on this, I don't approve of any of the things I've heard this evening, and I don't believe that that is the normal course of action in the Army. I've been a soldier myself, I was a soldier a long long time ago and er er training was different in my day to what it is today. But I also have one of the largest training regiments in my constituency, and I see that unit erm in action a couple of times a year if if no more. Now by and large it's a tough game being a soldier. And the difference between being tough and responding rapidly to instruction and discipline and bullying is something that er you have to denote er i in this discussion tonight . Right fair enough, that's er that's a very fair point but is being thrown in a bath er full of excreta, bleach and urine part of the toughening process ? No it's not it's qu it's quite disgraceful and nobody would approve of that and the co th th th th the Army if they got hold of anybody on that basis, they would court martial them immediately and they'd be very severely dealt with . that yeah can I answer that Andrew. Now you would court martial them well I put it to the S I B S I B what's that? That's the Special Investigation Branch . Special Investigation Branch. All the allegations I made, all the beatings I took, I'm bleeding they investigated nothing, and what the brigadier said, the brigadier is talking nonsense. He knows that the Army is w widespread in the Army and he . It's like everything else you company commander, you tell him, he throws it out the window. He sends you away make you feel happy Do you know I've served in the Army for thirty three years and I've commanded every thing at every level in the infantry which both these gentlemen have been in, from a platoon right up now to a brig er brigade and I can honestly tell you that I haven't seen more than a couple of incidents of bullying in the whole of that time . You're a commissioned officer The point is the point is that's that's a good point what you've said you don't see it. That's the whole point. You come at a barrack room as an officer Mm. or a corp it doesn't matter, Mhm. You'll see it. with rank on your arm Yeah. the soldiers i that room will act a different way I I agree. when the door shuts I understand that. a different way again they will . I can understand that , I can understand that. But it's a matter leadership. And leadership in the Army is some Leadership has got nothing to do with it whatsoever. Leadership It's just a case of it's just a case of a few individuals or people with rank who think they've go so much power they're gonna press people Yes I'm sorry to hear that people in rank in your particular case were involved Yeah well we've got a job to do if you're a soldier you've got a job to do okay, you've got a bit of training, you've got a job to do Right absolutely yeah you don't need no distractions, and bullying and bullying I quite agree, I quite agree and racism and all that,distractions I quite agree and if you're gonna send people to Northern Ireland and places like that you want 'em to defend the next soldier? Well c could I just come in? But they do. David Lightbown yes David Lightbown . Andrew I'll let you back in. in a minute,in a minute. I I certainly didn't go in in in in with a rank on my shoulder, I went in as a recruit. But you said But when I when I when I trained as recruit I trained with a lot of other er lot of other people . But that was in different days, this is nineteen ni There was no easy way out in my day you w yo y One second Andrew, I'll come to you in a sec you were fetched in and you did your National Service. Now when you did this National Service you served your country for a set period of time. I actually did three years of that that period of time in in in the Army. The majority of people that went through that service all had some recollection of things they didn't enjoy very much but they by and large thoroughly enjoyed their experience in the Army, it livened them up, it made them better men and we have got after all one of the best armies if not the best army in the world, it's got to come from I don't think that's somewhere and it has to come from the training. Alright Andrew briefly briefly. Go on. Basically I don't disagree with you, aye we have got the best army and I loved my I loved my time in the Army but I'm totally against the way I was treated in the Army. That doesn't there's when you're off duty it's great but when you're on duty it's different. the Army's made me a lot better person. I'm a I totally disagree You had a you you you were unfortunate in the way you were treated with you in the way it is run when you when I took my allegations to him because that's basically what they're saying it is I know it's no allegations Let's not go into the specifics of the court case just now David Lightbown, what I want to say to you, do you think it's a case, some people might perhaps unjustifiably but they still would say that those people who are bullied are bullied because they are nonconformists and in the military one has to conform and many people Well of course of course they do. It's what our the Army's all about. So if in any way you're different, if you're black or if you're short or if in any way you're different, you're fair game for the bullies perhaps? It's not whether you're black or white, it's not whether you're pink or green, it's how you respond to orders. And how quickly you respond to orders situations . Did you not respond to orders Richard Richard? It's not a case of black and white did you say? No. It is, it was a case it was a case with me that I was black or white and that's why that's why it hit the press like it did. look, look you're you're you're a guy that's been through a lot. I accept that. Yeah, yeah. But you survived it. And you will go on surviving it, you will turn why should I have to survive it?my country too you know, I know it's your country too. And nobody no no nobody nobody is saying that you were tr I was told when I was in my regiment I was told my country, it wasn't my country that was what I was told. nobody is saying that David Lightbown you were treated correctly,badly treated . David Lightbown, David Lightbown . survivor David Lightbown one second. Now er w w with every respect, to say that he survived it is something of a crass statement, because I remember reading about him thinking isn't this country getting good that we can have a black guardsman, and I remember my own disappointment when I read that he had to leave the regiment. Let's speak to er Tim er . Now Tim er, you were a soldier now you're a social worker. We heard earlier on about this this this regimental bath I think they call it, this bath of excreta and urine and bleach and the brigadier and David Lightbown said how rare this was, er did you ever see it? Certainly to the extent that er Richard has experienced it, no. But it was a fairly common way of getting people who perhaps wasn't up to standard or whatever, other recruits would grab them, and as he's described take them into the bathroom , throw them into a bath filled with whatever they chose to erm So it's a fairly common occurrence? It happened certainly two or three times during my training. In your own training you saw it? Mhm. Er the so-called regimental bath. Now there's another case here we've heard of er of racism, and I mean racism is the pretext very often for for bullying and bruta brutality and intimidation. And er er Paul your stepbrother er he died while he was with his regiment. What happened to him? Yes my brother er joined the Army about two years ago until he took his own life earlier on this summer. Erm he started his life er in Vietnam in the violence of Vietnam, and had therefore a lot of violence in his early life, which I think really stayed with him, but when he did join the Army, he was very proud to be doing so, and very proud to be wanting to be part of Britain and serving Britain in whatever way he could. And a I would say that actually during the early period in the Army, I think he probably gave as good as he got. I mean it was tough, life was tough for him and I know that he faced quite a lot of comments both of racist and other other things . he was Vietnamese presumably the comments were of a racist nature ? Yes er Yes that's right. And and he took quite a lot of them but in the time that Name calling? Oh all of that, name calling and and quite a bit more. But during that time when things were going well, he managed it. I think the thing that worries me most is that later on, he didn't manage it too well, a lot of other things were going wrong in his life, and at that point the name calling continued, and the stuff that maybe wasn't so hurtful early on seemed to become very hurtful then. And my main concern and complaint is that the Army, with its its emphasis on being macho, on being strong, on being okay, doesn't allow people to have their own weaknesses and in 's case, I just wish somebody somewhere in authority had spotted that he was a lad in trouble. But if you do have pe people will say if you do h have those weaknesses and if er there were times that he could was quite up to the joshing and the name calling, there were times when he wasn't, the very fact that there were times when he wasn't, doesn't that tell you that perhaps the Army wasn't the place for him? Well I don't know about that because I don't think that anybody stays the same all the way through their life, and I don't think there's anybody in life that's strong in every circumstance. I believe everybody at some point needs support. Now one of the problems is in the Army, that if you do need support, it's a sign of weakness, it's a sign of failure, it's almost impossible for you to get the kind of counselling and help that a lot of young lads need, and I think that a lot of young people in the Army today who maybe have got a lot of worries in their soul, and they don't have the courage at the moment or the possibility of getting that help because of the Army culture. Sergeant Major , you've been in the Army for about nigh on twenty years now, do you think that a soldier has to be able to cope with that sort of taunting and name calling when he's on the streets of Belfast for example. When a soldier goes to Belfast, he is abused,verbally abused Yeah on the streets, he has to react or or react in a manner that erm really when he's on there, he doesn't he doesn't react to that particular incident that's happening in front of him. He he must be taught that and he's taught that through his training. discipline. Does that yeah does th that mean that if he's say h he's taunted about his race he sh he should just turn the other cheek and have a stiff upper lip? Yes. I do. If I was on the streets of Ireland now, and I've been there many occasions and someone said to me, look at that Welsh get there, I would just have to take it. And I do take it and I have taken it and I just get on with my job. But that's It's a lot easier It's a lot easier to say that . Richard, Richard if you w if you were on the streets of Belfast for example goodness only knows what they would say to you, just because you're British and they'd use the pretext that you're black to to really throw horrendous insults at you. Let me tell you, let me tell you one incident er in Northern Ireland. Erm we was on patrol, we was going somewhere, we passed er a big factory wall, on the way back er a day later, on the wall was, go home British wog. What am I meant to do with that? Did you though er feel yeah go on, brigadier. Er I'd just like to say something actually to to put this in context because this dis discussion which suggests that there's a lot of this goes on, I don't believe that an Army that's got bullying as an endemic thing would be able carry out its role in the Gulf, in the Falklands, in Bosnia now That's right in the way it has done, and furthermore, every year there's a survey taken in this country, where we look across the country at the public service and we ask people in the community what they think of their public services. Year after year we come out with a satisfaction rating of over eighty per cent. Now the community doesn't feel that we're a load of bullies, the community doesn't feel that we're not doing our job properly and I think that's very very important. Well Robert here a a barrister, I'll just get the microphone over here, you're a barrister and you've prosecuted quite a lot of, you've been in the army yourself and prosecuted a lot of cases, now h he says that er that the British public love the Army, but from what we're hearing tonight, there's a lot that's rotten to the core? Well well can I take issue with the brigadier on one point. It's true to say that very few cases come to court martial. But it's the nature of the offence as such that if a soldier is bullied, he's unlikely if he wants to stay in the Army, to bring it to the attention of the authorities, because he know that afterwards he has then to live with the people who he's complained about. And if he does bring it to the attention of the authorities, the problem then arises that in many cases, and I've seen it in my experience, he will be dissuaded Yeah. from taking the matter further. That does happen. How, because We we heard there from R Richard and Andrew, it's a hierarchical bullying as well. I I'm sure that's right, I'm sure that's right. Can I just say one thing about Andrew's point about the S I B. In my experience the S I B when they receive these sort of complaints do investigate them very thoroughly, and I'm surprised at his experience. But the problem is the lower level at that,i i i it's at the N C O level where complaints are made by soldiers and because the complaint has to be made through the regiment, then the the pressure is for the soldier to withdraw his complaint . Rea really brief so how widespread is it in the Army, bullying or intimidation? How how can we tell, because as an officer, and this is this is Richard's point, as an officer how do you know what goes on in the barrack room? Nicky can I have a word ? With wa Andrew I've got somebody else to speak to. If I Okay. get a chance I'll come back to you. Er where's James ? James. Now you're on the run from the Army at the moment? Mm. Er why did you run away? Er mental torture, I just couldn't handle it no more. What were they doing to you? Er I was handcuffed to a radiator in the nude and urinated on. I was tied into a sleeping bag and hung upside down from a tree overnight. Er Why did they pick on you do you think Andrew, er James ? My size. Yeah. And you know Did you s did you te did you say for god's sake stop doing this to me? Did you try and stop them, did you try and make them see reason? Th there was no point, the chain of command to make a complaint was blocked. There was just no way. Did you see this happening to other people? Yeah. What sort of things were they doing to other people? Erm two people back to back with their trousers round their ankles, newspaper shoved up their backside, lit in the middle, first one to move got a kicking. And is this common? Or were these just a few isolated sadists ? Yeah, no this happens a lot. Brigadier, life is er hard enough in the Army when you're being toughened up for the sort of rigours you have to face on the streets of Belfast for example that's just inhuman. I couldn't agree more, that offends decency and of course there is a distinction, a complete distinction between toughness of training and in the infantry in particular it's very tough, and bullying. But I'd just like to just go back to pick up something that the the lawyer, the barrister said. And that is that Pick that up briefly then we wanna talk about James again . Very quickly. Because of course we're looking at the importance of bringing this on right from the time that a man joins as a recruit, and I realize that's when they're very vulnerable indeed, they're unfit probably, they're nervous, they're not a team yet, and we've developed all sorts of things. For example, we now brief recruits on their rights and tell them and encourage them to actually come forward with their complaints, we very carefully brief and select our N C Os, we have open days for parents, we bring parents in so that they can feel part of the set up right from the start and so that their sons join the army and they tell their other friends to make sure they do to. We've introduced Women's Royal Volunteer Service people, outside the chain of command so that young soldiers can go along and speak to them And you deal yourself with new recruits and so forth as a sort of P R man, you you deal with new recruits? I personally don't deal with recruits but there's as you know there's a depot which er Sure. So what are the army saying and this is where it really matters and really counts, what are the army saying to new recruits who might be going into the careers' office, army careers' office tomorrow, Mhm. what are they gonna be saying to those new recruits about the dangers of bullying? They're not gonna be saying anything about the dangers of bullying in the recruiting office . Well that's that's shocking. From what we've heard tonight. Well I don't think it is because you're again you're back to the line that everyone is bullying and I don't believe that everyone is bullying. I I don't I don't I don't have any more time, we're just gonna have to leave it on that very er worrying note, but thanks all very much for taking part. Thank you. Mm. And thank you for phoning in. Thank you Stephen from Leicestershire, he says that he has seen people tied to posts and set on fire. It's terrible. Erm anonymous, my son joined the paras five years ago and he was bullied, and another anonymous person from Rugby, my two children were in the army and though they weren't bullied they did see horrific things happening to other lads. Ian from Earlsbury, I spent fourteen years in the air force,bull bullying has always gone on but only when soldiers didn't conform. And someone who's and ex-military policeman called to say, a lot of bullying does go undetected, but i if it was left to the Royal Military Police, bullying would decrease. And Darren from Stoke on Trent was in the forces for three years and he didn't see any bullying at all. Well after the break, you can buy them, this is one of them, for as little as twenty five pounds, Elton John's been wearing something altogether more expensive at the High Court this week but does it look much better? Will you see the join when you join us? And men in wigs, next. for a while I was in the Air Force and then I lived in various parts of the country. But coming back to live in like to call it, er in nineteen seventy five. And I know perfectly well that there's no way that er I could get my wife to move out of the town, she loves it. And so so indeed do I. Anyhow, er this evening very happy to provide a few pictures for you to have a look at, and hopefully with a bit of information. If there's anything you want to er er to ask me about, please don't hesitate to er to butt in at any time. Erm can you all reasonably see what er what's going on? Right this is er merely a map erm where we're dealing with er local people. It's er it's not so necessary probably er as where at times I've given talks in various parts of the country on on this area. Er but erm this gives an idea of the railway lines that er well basically were in this area, erm I suppose er still round about nineteen fifty sixty time. Some of them had er already gone. But that's that's er basically what was was around. And of course er the Nottingham, Lincoln y Lincoln line here. The er main East Coast Main Line over here. The er mass of lines in the Nottingham area, and so on. And that is a real subject in itself, and I think you've probably had John talking to you. Have you not? Er John's erm quite a whiz on that one. Erm anyhow, this evening, I'm proposing to just merely cover this particular area, particularly. Erm and then just coming along here and er as far as and and just coming back to there. Erm let's have a look and see what we can we've got. Erm well as many of you know the first one of the first things that you see, if you're c approaching the town from from the A six one two, from er . Or from , er is that building, which is the old crossing keeper's house or cottage. Erm it has been altered somewhat since the original er railway days, but nevertheless it retains quite a bit of the old character erm and er the high pitched roofs erm and the . Interestingly, of different styles on that. It's not such an attractive house as the station master's house, but nevertheless er it is one of only two railway buildings now left er in this town. And of course as many of you will know, the railway line er used to run just in front, here. There's another picture of it, as one er goes past on the road. And again. Very steeply pitched roof. Now if you want to go and have a look at the other oth the oth other building, at er railway er the Railway, erm going down Road, er again a pointer to that one time this er town did have er a railway, er is of course the Arms. I think that's they've altered that, they've put a porch over there haven't they, since er I took that one. Er but er that was very much the local, er in Victorian times. Er for the er the station. There again erm I think there's still on the windows here, there's still reference to one of the coal merchants I think isn't there? Have a look anyhow. Erm looking across from the Arms, one can see that, what I can only describe as a delightful bit of architecture, erm perhaps I'm a little bit er of a philistine, but er I think it's one of the nicest, most attractive buildings in the town. Erm you know I like Georgian and I like a lot of other architecture but that I think has got tremendous character. Er and of course was the old station master's er house. The erm well let's see, again the steeply pitched roof, the er the chimney's, er the barge-boards, the finials, er and the er angled fencing, which was characteristic of the Railway er post about nineteen O seven. And also the Railway used it and er it was used elsewhere, and it's interesting this, I noticed that erm B R have recently erected er er this type of fencing er which is adds insult to injury possibly, on the at er . Er but i you know it's rather nice actually. Erm anyhow, that was the sort of site er a few years ago. See it's very very attractive, the erm stonework and so on and the slate roofs. And er er it didn't used to be erm white barge-boarding, er nor white erm fencing. But nevertheless I think it looks very attractive in that way. Just note the er the entrance round there in the in the hedge, er from the new building nearby. There's another picture of it where er this was er about five or six years ago this was taken, and you can see there, going along to the end of the er of this fencing, the post there which was one of the er of the posts er to which the gates, the crossing gates were attached. There you have a brick wall. Now once upon a time, there was a railway. Looking back you can see the riverside erm and basically just er here was the railway, and the entrance to the goods yard, er coal offices etcetera, or at least one of the entrances, was on that side. Coming back to look at this erm er, as I say, very attractive building, again, and you can see there's still a bit of work there. And er to go back and you can see it here. nice lamp and as I say, these er the barge-boarding. Excellent erm brickwork as well, just just proud there. Now you can see here, again, we've still got er some gateposts. That actually is a a railway gate post unless they've changed it, which I don't think they have. On that one was taken a little bit earlier, you can see they certainly had one of the old er gates there. And looking up that er driveway er now they've got that house there,you can see er what the view is, say up that entrance. And there again, much the same. And just take note of that. And that's what it looked like in nineteen seventy seven. Er one had the gateway, cobbled stone, approach to the railway station. Terrible shame in my opinion that that building was demolished, allowed to go to wrack and ruin, er and then then demolished. There you have the er individual walkway th along there, and the entrance along here er up the yard. The old sort of double erm er goods shed. Er and er vehicles would go down, it drops down inside there, and there's planking er at obviously, level erm on either side er of this arch er this erm er wide way er through to the bottom. And I'll show you a bit more in a little while. There is another picture, taken on a different day, showing, again in about nineteen seventy eight. Seventy seven seventy eight, the remains of quite a substantial goods shed, for a relatively small place. Now I daresay most of you know that, really the population of or , was pretty static in the er well from eighteen fifty to about nineteen fifty, or even nineteen sixty. Erm round about three and a quarter thousand. Very little change. They had er seventeen or nineteen pubs, I can never quite remember. Er for that population. Er and er of course a number were closed in the er early part of this century, and more er coming along. We've still got about ten or eleven I think, haven't we? Erm really the railway was closed in nineteen fifty nine, for passenger traffic. Just about the time that Dougie started er building substantially in the town and doubled to population to its present six and a half thousand or so. Er whether or not it would have survived, I I wouldn't know. Anyhow that as I say, was the er goods shed. Er that erm was in use er as I say until the closure. Now there's a picture of the station, and you can see that we've got the post, the cobbled entrance, on this on the left hand side was the station master's house, the garden. You'll notice that the the erm fencing is vertical. Erm and that was normal practice until the early part of the century, about nineteen O seven I think it was that the started using the er forty five degree angles, style. But er er vegetable garden, and the lot. There's over here there's er a passenger station. Four wheeled coaches er in here. Some goods er wagons on that side, erm lovely ladies in the long dresses and so on. Er on this right hand side you've got erm various advertisements for er Belfast and Northern Ireland and er and sort of er away days and and so on. Erm various signals. The main er sort of booking place, er waiting rooms and so on. Er normal practice for the railway was to have the main er part of the buildings on the town side, and you got a er smaller building on the other side of the tracks over there. There's er part of the er goods shed over there. And we've got lamp house, er signal box and the white gate and er woodwork there. Now that er merely shows that that is a cattle dock. A lot of quite a lot o cattle traffic in those days, agriculture and cattle traffic, and the normal practice er in certainly in the last century, er to avoid disease, was to use a lime wash. Er they didn't have the er the normal erm antiseptic washes, which sort of came in later on. Er Brothers of were manufacturers of sheep dips and various disinfectants. And of course as I say those those were around, but erm the reason that is all white, is that it was erm er when the cattle had been got out of the way, they er whacked a fair amount of of lime wash all over things er to er to kill any any nasties there. Erm here you have a handsome cab. And that cab you'll see in other photographs we've got. Erm that plied to the 's Head Hotel. Er and again, you'll see on one of the 's photographs I've got, it shows, just to the right hand side as you're looking at the front of the main archway, erm it had the legend, Railway, parcels receiving office. So if you wanted to er send parcels via the Railway, anywhere in the country, Then you could take your parcels into er the 's Head er sort of office there, erm and they were ferried down here. You didn't actually have to come down er with er to the station to . Erm a number of er sort of billboards up here, various signals, erm lamps. Quite an interesting picture er and for anybody who is interested in sort of modelling this scene,get is right, er that's a very very valuable photograph. Erm it's off a er an ordinary postcard that was produced many many years ago,quite common. Erm round about nineteen O five I think that was. Now as you let's have a look at er the track layout of the place. Erm want to run to about half past eight or We'll see how we go. Erm coming in from er on the A six one two from , er we've come to over the level crossing there. Now this is a er an ordinance survey map of about nineteen fifteen. And at that time, single track over that level crossing erm and the track became double as one went up past about Close, isn't it now, over here? Erm 's Meadow, Close, erm and er then we've got the double track runs into the station up here, past the cattle pens which you saw those white things on the photograph, various signal posts, the goods shed, there, erm an engine shed, a small engine shed which was built to accommodate, normally only one loco. Erm and a little siding by the er track to accommodate erm a loco which was largely used for er coaling purposes, of the locomotive. And and on the er here you've got erm siding with that that erm circular object is called a wagon turntable. And goods wagons that needed to be unloaded, er would be brought into, er at least unloaded erm er perhaps for the distribution of items in the town, would be brought onto that turntable erm and normally horse, purely a horse hook would be er put on er and swung round, and the wagon, or the wagons, a couple of wagons perhaps, would be taken at right angles into that er goods shed for unloading. And the there was there was a central say walkway or carriageway down the middle there. Er well not quite central, erm and the er s wooden staging inside the goods shed, er was at wagon height. So the er the items could be loa unloaded straight out of their packages and and whatever. Erm there was also an interesting erm stubby bit of railway track there. Perhaps if I move on I think we've perhaps got one a little bit bigger. Oh no. Erm I'll go back a minute. Er there's another little stubby bit of track there, and that er provided er what was termed end loading facilities, er so that erm Er in the old days er the sort of lord of the manor er would have a er horse a horses and carriage. Erm and er they had what they call carriage trucks, which were er flat trucks basically, or thereabouts. Which could be attached to passenger trains, and the er the actual er gentleman's carriage, er horse-drawn carriage, could be loaded onto this flat truck, and er the er would be transported to be available er at his destin in his or her destination. Erm and er it was er it was a ramp basically, er up here, so that one could run straight off that ramp, onto this flat truck. And that's a that's one of the what that was used for. Erm as you I say, initially er it was a single track into the station, over crossing. And erm in between the wars, erm it was made double track, er up towards over there. By just merely putting in an additional point, or turnout, here, er to er to make that say double track. That's er well that's all there. That's a er map I acquired off the Water Board I think from somewhere. . Erm the slightly larger erm Engine shed here as I say. Erm cattle pens, goods shed, The main station building here, the erm station master's house here. A signal box, the platforms on both sides, the smaller building on the North side of the station. Erm a weighed a weighing machine, a weighing office over here, and coal offices were situated there. Erm I will give a little bit of history of dates, and what things were altered and when in a bit. Erm the the railway track, erm once it was extended through to and I say I'll give you the details on that in a minute, erm went over the er Road, and then the track that was nearest to er the town, was curved in and joined that other line erm and er went off to to . And there's a book on engine sheds, and er engine sheds, which was published some years ago I think by publishing company, er which gives track plans to help people. But looked at a er at any ordinance survey map, they'd have seen that they got the track plan wrong. Erm that is that is what it should be. Erm some additional sidings,mills over here, some additional sidings were put in, in the early part of this century, and they came off the this track erm just this side of on the left hand side of the level crossing, erm and went er up to a dead end er just along in the right hand side, er over now towards where factory is. Erm or bakery. And then er they returned the line, or double track round here, er and bringing so goods wagons could be brought round into the sort of unloading area er of 's mill. Of course 's was a very important customer of the of the railway. Now let's give a little bit of er of information. The er there were many railways erm were contemplated in the eighteen thirties and forties and beyond. And erm the er there was a Nottingham, Lincoln and Hull line I think, proposed in eighteen thirty. Erm but this line involving ,, er was actually er part of a much bigger scheme that was put forward about eighteen forty, and really involved er a line from near Cross to , on to , on to , and then up to and connecting . Basically sort of cutting across country, about twenty eight miles I think it was. Er as an original project. Erm the er In eighteen thirty nine, the the railway came to Nottingham, er from Derby, and er there were three companies, the , the er Railway I think it was, and the er Railway or er sorry Railway. And they amalgamated in eighteen forty four to become the Railway. And er a certain George known as the Railway King was very keen to to get er across into to Lincoln and certainly in various other parts of East Anglia, to sort of spike other people's guns and to erm er to obtain the traffic for his own er benefit, and for his shareholder's benefit perhaps. Erm and erm the Railway, er opened the Nottingham, Newark, Lincoln railway line in eighteen forty six. he whole thing was built in a year, quite incredible. In in those days. Erm because it crossed the Trent quite a number of times, and quite a number of trestle er wooden bridges were involved in that construction. But the whole lot was done and opened I think it was er in August, eighteen forty six. And one of the say one of the proposals was that there should be this er line from , and through this town, and over to join the er Nottingham, Lincoln line er at . What was built in eighteen forty seven, and opened in eighteen forty seven, was merely a small branch line, of two and a half, three miles, from this town, to , where it say er er made a er a connection and and a small junction there. There was no station actually at at that time. Erm the station was opened er and trains began to run in eighteen forty seven. But very quickly it was er all all the promises of much traffic. Say the town had only got three and a bit thousand people anyhow, three thousand people, erm there was very very little actual passenger traffic. Er even in the early eighteen well late eighteen forties, early eighteen fifties. And after a matter of a couple of years of use, er the service had already been curtailed, from nine trains down to five per day, erm and er shortly the passenger service was completely withdrawn. Or at least it was withdrawn as far as er railway engines were concerned. They did in fact get a horse erm and er they had a small carriage, er and er a horse made the odd er visit up the line, from time to time. Er but erm the So the railway line erm still carried a little bit of er of freight traffic, but erm it wasn't quite abandoned, but even some of the er station buildings were removed erm to er to . So that's that's really what happened, and it wasn't until eighteen sixty, or eighteen fifty eight, fifty nine in time, that the Railway directors agreed to reopen this branch line, as they'd been basically promised a lot more traffic. Erm it was still pretty marginal er but er at least it was opened and erm in eighteen er it carried on until, in eighteen seventy, seventy one, the line was extended back to or a station roughly halfway between the two. Then er through to erm , and on to. In those days there wasn't a great deal of of mining, I mean wasn't open, and er there was a tremendous amount, well there's a fair amount of of traffic agricultural traffic, and I mean one had to accept that virtually everything came in, all coal, road stone, erm goods required er for well 's who were going at the time, they er they used the railway. Erm and the various er food s food stores er again, virtually everything came in. And of course in due course er time er the town had a gas station, erm or a gas, not a gas station, erm er a gas works . Erm and so again coal was was brought in erm for that. Erm anyhow so that is sort of the background. And the railway er it operated, I suppose, pretty marginally, certainly for the rest of er last century. Erm in nineteen O two I think it was, I've got the details at home, erm sidings were put in for 's. They paid a bit and the Railway paid a bit. And the idea here was that one would be for incoming goods, and one would be for empty wagons or the other way round, er going out. Erm and of course the the wagons as I say would would come up right along side that er road. Now that's a picture which er many of you will be very familiar of with. Erm and it shows it's er just about the turn of the century that is. And er there you have a a s a signal. Erm the level crossing gates here, 's Mill on the left hand side, erm a er sort of lean to er over the erm sort of loading bay, or unloading bay there. Erm a typical er signal box and a rather pretty little station master's house, there. And that I say that picture has appeared on everything, even on china, I think you can buy some at erm can't you even with that on it. It's a very very well known photograph. Again, about the turn of the century, erm looking up towards . The track across here, the crossing gates. Er signal box there, the er lower quadrant signal here. There's a round spot on the back which was used before they had er a white er sort of a black erm stripe, er vertical stripe erm on the er on it there. You can see at the back here, erm a barrow crossing, er which could be used er to get erm heavy items on a on a wheelbarrow, or trolley, over the tracks er from the platforms. Erm various lamps, the station b main station building, the s the subsidiary station building there. er in the background there's the engine shed, erm and a few er one or two, there's a loco there I think. Erm one or two bits and pieces anyhow. And on the right hand side, there's the goods shed. Erm in nineteen fourteen, erm 's, who had a water turbine er as their sort of main motive power for their er milling operations, erm put in or had had, er not only this line, siding, but they had one put in round the back here, erm because that was to provide coal, for steam boilers which were er put in to augment the water power. Erm that later on, the signal box that used to be here was moved over to the other side, that's all that's there for. And er that shows it later on when that one at the back had been taken out. Now erm last century er goods came up er the Trent to er and er by sailing barge er and er this sort of equipment was used to er to collect er items from the holds of these er barges, erm put on wagons, horse-drawn er and er some steam traction engines, er to be transported around. There's another picture of one of the barges on the Trent. A steam one. Now the great er as you can see that is a just pre-first world war advertisement from 's. And erm so they were quite major users of the railway services and indeed, I think that there was at least one clerk, from the railway, employed in 's offices, all day, every day at some time. There's a picture of er er flour, going out from 's Mill er latter part of er last century, erm going out to 's bakery in the town. A steam lorry that acquired, in the er early part of the century. Erm obviously er no erm pneumatic tyres or anything on that but er quite er good old wo work horses they were. No that was er that's a picture of er 's erm er I think before they took that off they've taken that off haven't they now? Erm that was when er it had just been erm, well before they started erm altering it into flats, and so on. But you can see that in fact the railway line came round and in front actually just in in the front here. And there used to be a a lean to just there. That doorway is still there. C C eighteen sixty seven, Charles . Er it's not the date the place was built, it's the date it er the last time that that particular area was erm rebuilt. They had a number of fires over the years at 's Mill, er and one was in eighteen sixty six or sixty seven. Erm and er that rebuilding was the was when erm that part of the job was er was done. There's a picture that I obtained from actually Ruth who was who was a Miss . Erm and it shows it's the twenty I think it's the twenty second or twenty third I've got it at home, er of October nineteen fourteen, this. Erm and it's the the livery of the first full load of coal, into round the back of the er 's Mill, erm and there's there's fifteen eight ton Railway wagons there, full of coal, just erm coming. And it's an twelve twenty seven, Railway, M R on the front as as standard. And er bit misty, but that's looking out from the signal box, you can just, possibly just about make out there, and at the back erm the er er with the the erm station master's house etcetera. Er that was taken out I say in in due course, but erm er I think that er that picture I borrowed, I mean with her permission of course, erm and er I think it was hung up in the bathroom or somewhere, which was not the best place for a photograph to be really. And so I took with I say with her blessing, took a er a picture of it for posterity. . Erm that's a er rather nice picture, erm which has never been published, not at the moment anyhow. Erm and it was one that erm er Mr gave me, many years ago when I was involved with the Cricket Club, about nineteen seventy seven I think it was. He knew I was interested in railways and his grand grandfather I think, or uncle was er photographer of the town. And this was a photograph erm taken from the roof of the engine shed. And about er I'd guess about nineteen nineteen. Nineteen twenty perhaps. And you're looking up towards . I don't know why I'm not really using this er this pointer. Well perhaps cos you can't see it. Erm the er Arms over there. The cattle dock here. Er a loading gauge just here, to ensure that er anything coming out of that er er that had been loaded in the goods shed was not erm overloaded, and likely to hit tunnels and bridges and so on. There's the wagon turntable, that we mentioned. That end loading er and ramp at er the end. That's a er that's a Railway horsebox there. Erm and the line running into the goods shed there. Erm you've got er fire buckets on the end. Er a warning not to trespass or something,careful about that. Erm o a barrow crossing er between platforms there. There's a engine or carriage co er couple of carriages in there. The gates are shut over there. Signal box there. Er the er station master's house, the line disappearing off towards over there. Erm 's Mill along here, and actually, you can actually just see there's a wagon there which says, L B S C. Now that's London, Brighton and South Coast. What on earth's that doing there? Er but er maybe it was erm collecting or delivering a load or something. Er there you have the weighbridge. Er or weigh office, and again pretty little building, er the steeply pitched roof, the barge- boarding on it, erm and er multi-coloured er brick, there's a sort of whitish brick with erm er sort of pinkish er brick work er put in to er b by way of decoration. And again you've got the same sort of thing. That's the coal er th the the coal offices. There were three, well there we were in fact four coal merchants in the in the town. there was er 's, erm 's who were probably the biggest, Samuel 's, erm 's and s. Erm I think that 's had gone out of the coal merchanting business erm probably by nineteen twenty or earlier, I think. I haven't been able to trace anything er later than that. There you've got er a line of coal wagons, and so that's those'll be coming that is a more sort of general merchandise wagons which would be parked in there, loaded or unloaded, erm er shunted across the lines and er into that goods yard, goods shed for er loading and so on. Erm lamps, kerosene, wicks and all the rest of it would be kept there. Gentlemen's toilet, there. Erm and the driveway, er over there. And again as I say it's rather a nice erm picture which erm er was given to me some time ago. A close up really, just showing you er more detail on er that wagon turntable, the buffer stops, rail built buffer stops, or just across there, fire buckets. Erm and er there's the er loading gauge and there of course is the whitewashed erm cattle dock. Er and er so there's the goods shed and the er door, the wooden door to provide excess er trucks into there. Er another picture I say really just erm closer up, erm and giving perhaps better detail. You can see the er the pattern of the darker brickworks. There's the sort of pinkish bricks. And again you can see the barge-boarding erm and rather attractive roof designs, er which er reflect er the rest of the architecture. Some of the some of the railways were very very functional, not and didn't bother too much about er what places looked like. Railway was. Er they perhaps spent too much money that way, but to be fair, the Railway was the biggest Well the Railway er on amalgamation in nineteen twenty three, was the biggest company, and biggest employer in this country. And if one goes back er and think about that wages were probably no more than two pounds a week on average, at that time, the er share capital of the Rail Railway I think I'm right in saying, was four hundred and fifty million pounds at that time. Quite a concern. They had hundreds of thousands of employees, of horses and er everything. Er massive organization. And of course if you strip everything that's profitable out of it, like the erm er the railway air services went, erm the er the er erm hotels, ferries, everything else you can think of, you're left with er with a runt that doesn't make money, and not surprisingly the government then closes it down. Still I'm mustn't get too political must I. Er but you know you can always close things if you want to. Erm you can fiddle the books, I know that very well. Another picture show the here a little bit here. Erm some of the a adverts in er our sort of parish magazines and and so on, er fifty sixty seventy years ago, some of the names,still there. Motor Company, well that used er that erm er that's the er . Er 's, well they were well known, very big shop in the town they had. Erm where Lloyd's is isn't it. Now then Samuel . Some of 's wagons, delivering coal to Mr 's house, well no it was erm 's Manor, it was before Mr came there. Er but erm that was er the Baron's house of course at one time in the eighteen, early eighteen hundreds. Now a snow scene. Samuel , this was taken from an advertisement in one of the magazines, and one sometimes got a little bit of er of exaggeration. Er not quite certain how many he had, he had at least one wagon I know that. Erm very common, you know s seventy three, twenty five, eighteen, erm they very often started at sort of seventy three or something like that. To give the impression before. Erm I say I don't know how many he did have. Erm er but that er is a model of one that I made. Er and er I I think it's a fairly accurate representation. Erm that is er four millimetres to the foot, erm so not very big. But that's on to scale there. I I work to a pretty scale on these things. eighteen point eight three millimetres between the tracks. 's and all the rest of it, and er pictured just by the er er just by the station master's house. I'll stop in about five minutes if that's alright. Fine. Erm again,L M S yard there, residents . I think that's where Dr lives now isn't it. In the nineteen sixties an awful lot of er of stuff went, er or was just allowed to er to get into bad repair, and of course er B R weren't terribly interested so they just abandoned it. You can see again this er this decorative work on there, and again most attractive er chimneys. The er gents toilet. A bit spartan but there it is. And er the ladies one look er there we are again. Going round the other side, where the sun was shining that way better. Very attractive for modelling purposes this. Looking close close up. There you can see the sort of leaded light windows. And the basically the whitish colour of the er the brick work. The doors to the waiting room etcetera, or to the booking office. Inside. Used to be panelled there I think. But er rather dirty yellow buff interior. And again that's looking at the same time in nineteen seventy se seventy seven, seventy eight time, it's looking back into that er er driveway, and if you can remember the sort of the Victorian or Edwardian er photograph that er I showed you before, of er virtually that er that view. Going back to seeing to to looking at the erm goods shed. There you can see the main entrance. And that's where you went down slightly, er or erm carts, lorries, anything else went down there. Erm normally there was a er horse and cart here. Er certainly until the I think probably until the end of the war. Erm I believe there ha there was a comma or a Yeah, I think there was a comma vehicle that was used, er later on. It may have come from York I don't know. Er I suppose that's where they er did a lot of the office work, a wooden shed built on to it. You can see the buttresses, and again the rather attractive brickwork that even even on a goods shed, a functional goods shed. Now that's the entrance and there is where the er there used to be the erm er wagon turntable out here, and the entrance for the trucks was er through that doorway. I won't say through the door,looks as if it has been. But er there. I'm afraid the er er the end loading ramp and a lot of the other stuff had gone by then. Interior. There you can see the er wooden staging, and this is where the wagons were brought in, er and were unloaded onto this wooden staging, and the delivery vehicles would come down this er sort of rampway, erm between er well either side,the staging either side. And you can just see some of the er you can just see the timberwork on the in the roofing. There you can see the staging, and that is where the er wagons came in along here. More pictures of the roof timbers. Outside, that was some stabling I think there. And er internal roof-work of the stabling. Just er recessed there to avoid it getting damaged with things passing on the side. And we're now now walking round the back and er sort of now pointing towards the Arms. And you'll notice the er er again the brickwork and the buttressing along there. Now having just walked away er up towards erm er crossing end, there's the . And that's the remains of the cattle dock here. Er I'm afraid a lot of it had gone by that time. That was to hang Mr on. Or Dr . In fact there're two of them, there and one there. And that's erm crossing house up there. And you can see that's where the main tracks where and this is of course where we had er sort of sidings and er other things and er and the main yard. Erm odd pictures of the engine shed, taken from somebody's back garden I suppose now. Er but you can see the er the the engine shed as it was. Single road. Accommodate er one locomotive only. They normally had here, er just the one erm locomotive little O four four tank engine, Johnson. Erm built before the turn of the century. And and er they also had er normally a little O six O tank er which was er spent a lot of it's time at er a at at the what is what is now er Castle. Er shunting there. As I say, that er train would nip off to Nottingham I think every Monday I think it was, and get vacuum cleaned out. Er and then return. what I've never seen, there's the that's the er tank, water tank at the top. What I've never seen, is a photograph from the other end. If anybody can tell me what was at the other end, apart from a hole, then not carefully, er I'd be very grateful. I I guess there was probably a lean to or something like that. But er i just don't know, maybe erm a sand store. But as I say, I've never seen anything, and I've never been able to find anybody who can provide that answer for me. There is a coal truck, that was parked there, and they would load up coal er from there as as necessary. Er into the er into the bunker. In actual fact in later times erm, possibly when that er when this was no longer in use, erm they er put five, instead of two or three coal rails, on the bunker, erm they put five on at least a couple of the engines. To so it could accommodate more coal, erm and not have to return to base so frequently. Erm there's another picture, showing the er water er water crane, with a barrel. Er and the erm and the hose and er and and lighting and so on. And this was a little stage er for people to go and to erm transfer coal across. Now you can see on there, there's something at the back isn't there? Oh yes. But I I don't know what it is. I suspect it's er it's it's er it's some sort of little office at a guess. But I would very very much like to er to find out er and get a picture of what is up there. Or somebody could tell me. Now that's a bit of a grotty picture put er it's useful to er er to give an idea of what was there. Now after the er there was a incident at erm the er engine shed, er the stabling of the locomotive was transferred away, erm and it used to travel at the end of the day over to the er or , or er engine shed, where it er stayed for the stayed for the night. Er and this is a picture of it and the engine shed, with some ex- locos. Er which were normal at that time. Erm and er and basically that engine shed is where 's clothing factory is, erm just er at the side of Road,. And by the Hill Bridge. A nineteen twenty four timetable, erm not many trains between er and er and . I say originally there were four, but by nineteen er thir nineteen twenty nine, erm basically the passenger service had ceased, although er we did get there were minor special and so on, that that were run and race days, the stations and the er were used, but basically erm er the er the line beyond er was er virtually entirely erm colliery er and and goods traffic. But I say it it it became er quite increasingly important right up to its closure er of of er particularly for for catering for Bl for erm pit. Er and indeed er a a triangle or a curve was put in near to er bring to bring trains or enable trains to er er to turn round or go round and face Nottingham or come from Nottingham from yard, and so on. there's quite a quite a good service as you can see er between erm at least er junction and . virtually everything. And that was maintained right through to the end. Erm a late picture, say on or about the day befor when it packed up which was erm July nineteen fifty nine for passenger servicing. And that was a sad day, erm and I've got the details, I think it was nineteen eighty one, er that it was finally bulldozed. And I think a lot of that er of the hard core and er went, and was buried near the rifle range, up erm at 's place. Er just off Road. I think I'm right in that. You can see that erm good job of the knocking all the er stonework down and so on. Rather sad . Now let's move along the line. Erm any any questions on er itself or you know if there's anything I haven't told you, I mean there's probably quite a lot, well there's a lot I know there is. But yes anything you want to er erm please jump in. Er but if not let's move up erm to towards er towards , and this is erm this is the erm former under-bridge at , going up to Mill. Now the roadway used to come under the railway. Little humpback, bridge here, erm and used I say used to go through to er Mill itself just er quarter of a mile along the track. Erm the er the road was later just moved to the left hand side of that bridge, and er no longer having to have that restriction. But that is still in place as you can see. Er a fairly light railway, erm but er but adequate. That's taken from just re wh basically where the roadway is now. And that's the trail looking towards . Now let's move up to the next port of call, which is Station. I should say it's convenient for neither I should imagine. Erm single track shown on this ordnance survey map. Again about nineteen er I think nineteen fifteen, maybe a little bit earlier. Erm a passing loop there, for trains to be able to just pull in and let anything going the other way, because it was mainly single track from er from onwards. Erm and a little bay there for er goods traffic to go into the sort of station. Station platform, the bridge there, and the station master's house, there. A little head shunt at the end to protect anything running back onto the er main line. Erm slightly nearer picture. Er and I think erm er a bit later date actually. No it's probably about the same. That one's a bit later date, and you can see that they've double the track here. Erm just made it a er does it's not double track er very far, but they have actually double tracked that. And this is erm in the nineteen forties nineteen fifties. When there was a fair amount of er goods traffic particularly coal from . That er that line I think went to just er a bit further up and erm er I say not an any matter of er another couple of hundred yards I think before there was only a single track. Er that is the station master's house at Station. And er it's now the part of the you can er go to a picnic area along here. You know you can walk through there back to . You can just see the remains of the platform there. And er platform over here. Er this has been altered quite a lot since then, but you can still see the er gate that was er to the yard of the station. Moving on, to . Again, er early nineteen hundreds, and you can see single track coming in from here, and interesting bit of track work here, erm station up here. Double track through the station. Erm goods shed, er and er siding along here. So interesting type of track work there. Now when the was opened, er it was decided to er to put in a line, erm just near to connect with , and pick up some of the trade for the for Railway, cos the or the had already decided to get some from that end as well. Er going up to erm and so on. So a line was put in, up to Colliery. And there you have, not a very good picture, but you can see this was th with the goods shed as per the last ordnance survey map. Slightly altered configuration, but er tracks put in there, erm and er to house quite a lot of wagons and to er allow trains to er to just be held there until they could move up to erm cos that's single track beyond there. That was the quite enlarged quite enlarged er sidings, erm these haven't been changed here, but additional sidings on this side er and I say that curve up here. Erm just look at that one that er goods shed, that's er that's interesting cos er there's still remains of that there. There you can see Station. Station master's house there. Erm and the I can never remember the name of that road over there. Er o this is Road down here isn't it? Anyhow, erm that's in a cutting there. And you can see the track layout. I say in interesting, if you built that in a model, people wouldn't believe you. There's a picture in early B R days, of a I think erm special probably from . And showing that even if the er station isn't actually used for passenger traffic, er it's well kept. Now let's look down from the bridge. And there you see again in early B R days, er the er the station master's house, and er er and the station itself, over here, the goods shed over there , the various track works coming across, the er line up to round here, and as I say the various sidings that were put in to accommodate the additional er colliery and other traffic. But er considering it isn't er used for passengers, it looks in quite good nick, doesn't it really that. But I say that er just er look at that, and look at the particular roof line. And er the the vent there, the circular vent. Now that's what it looks like more or less now. Er looking just er well that picture of that going through th station on a special. That's roughly the same place. Well just a few yards along. Picture from the from the er bridge, and there you can see the goods sheds still there. And that's looking up towards up there. But the house is in quite good order, it has been extended. And that's er from the front view, I didn't go wandering in. But that was the entrance to the station originally. Er I don't know whether that's listed or not, but er I'm surprised it's still there frankly. So as I say, very very very er prominent building. There's a little weighbridge or or office. Er in somebody's garden. And er you can just walk down either side of it. Er onto the trail. That's one of the see the old railway building there. Erm looking up er the er line or that is looking from the bridge erm that's going down towards er th the just it it it er cur curved round to to meet the er the line er an and the s and the station was was here. Just along the road. Er that was erm station just along here. And that's a line from between quite er steep er in quite a steep cutting. Looking towards again from the bridge over the main road, er as one gets er near near . Now moving on a little bit further, I know the talk said that I was only going up to er to , but I'm just going a little bit further. We've cut across the er A six one four here. Erm at the white post. Er and er the line came from over here, and on that embankment there was a bridge here, er but they farmer has er removed that embankment, but has still left this part. And there's some still some one or two rather nice little bridges. Er still extant, and er now I rather like the architecture. Erm and so I wandered up there and had a look at it and photographed. Interesting four four arch bricks, and er and and very nice stonework. And the copings there, the retaining walls. You can see the brickwork there, Nicely done and er very attractive for again for modelling purposes. Going a little bit further, I'm only er just a couple here. That's up erm near Not a very good picture that, erm but a er L M S eight er eight F, up near that is. On a er coal train going towards er towards . And that's a an L M S crab also at . Again on a on a special, going towards Skegness probably, at a guess. Now what's going the other way? Erm and er this is coming in old Ordnance Survey map, coming in past the race course, at . And er single track at the time, and running double track, and platforms either side, Erm a er wedge shape platform, nice wooden building there, another building there. And and er er the platforms either side. Signal box over here. Various sidings, er and the trains from would come in to the left hand side of the top platform, erm and er would er go over here and and cut back and go out from this er this side. A little bit er It's it's not a very good map the er Ordnance Survey map in the Nottingham Library, er local studies department. About the best I could get off them. Erm and I've I've obviously photographed it. Now there's a picture er in early B R days again, of the line coming in from here and the very attractive in my opinion, wooden er structures, the shelter there. The racecourse at the back, fencing, platform here, wooden structure here, buildings erm and er you can just see the edge of er another canopy similar to that er on this side. This is taken from the er from a sta er from a signal box er just er over sort of where I am, er here roughly in in line. And er well kept flower beds and so on. Barrow crossings here, signals and so on. There's another picture, now that's looking erm towards up there, and the branch coming in there, behind that er building. Very attractive, take note of what that looks like. A train waiting to go out go out to , er having met the er Nottingham Lincoln, or Lincoln Nottingham line which you can see just goes up the the back there. And there's that wooden building there. The train having come in from , and just going er forward well I don't know erm before back to er er to . I think that's an ex carriage actually, but it makes you realize how small these things were. In B R days, not a very good picture, but an B one Thompson, four six O B one on a erm probably a Birmingham train, er real cross country. And there's the er in the platform there just having come in. Another picture er of the not very good, but erm best I can do, best I've got. Again see the old wooden structures, rather nice lamps and so on. That's what you've got now. Don't know whether that's an improvement upon the wooden structures. No I think not. That's where that rather nice, this is w this is the er the departure platform at . And that's the platform arrival from Nottingham to Lincoln, on the other side, the Lincoln to Nottingham one. But er not terribly pretty. There you can see that's looking up towards . Well the junction's gone completely, that was taken two or three years ago. And that's what you've got left, up there. I don't know why they bother. There's a signal box, from which the other picture was taken. No doubt a lamp and store there. Er this taken from where the signal box used to be, and that's where the line out to is over there. There's hardly a trace of it, whoops. And there you see er really that was the old erm remains of the platform going towards er . That's all that's left. And again that's the er er platforms as it is now looking towards . Oh and they sorry the other way round. That's the other end of it. And the er house there,. Quite a fair erm service on the Nottingham Lincoln line. Erm there's a sort of typical timetable of the nineteen twenties. . Now moving over to to , er what is Castle now, used to be quite a nice er well the the actual building Erm that building is still here, and the bulk of that er station building is still there, er but erm I'm afraid all the er the buildings this side have gone, erm and er a lot of this has a lot of this has gone. Again you you've got er lamps erm and water columns and barrier here. In the background, erm a big goods shed which is still there. I think er it won't be long before that goes I think. There you can see, early B R days, erm as it shows it's Castle, it wasn't Castle, it was just in the old days. Water tower here. There was never a turntable at er at . Er but er rather nice er buildings here, and er canopies, which I say have been completely er removed. And er the level crossing of the old A one used to be here. The goods shed at the back, and the train just coming in from Lincoln there. And the old semaphore bracket signal there. Er in B R days, a lot of the er traffic between Nottingham and Lincoln and Derby, er was hauled by locomotives from Lincoln depot, and when the erm Region took that over, they closed the or the er shed down and used erm er Lincoln region locomotives. This is an old express passenger four four O, director class. Er in York station erm on a er Lincoln to Derby train. Erm very attractive er locos they were and extremely successful, they were the mainstay of er the er er line, and er outperformed many of the Robinson four six Os er that were built subsequently. Erm very attractive building, and I think in fact ten years ago when I took that photograph. Erm I don't think it's changed much. coming back er along the line. And that's how it was in earlier days. The same building. If you look at the look at that building. It's the same building. The gates, they only had a single er they didn't have gates on either side here, they just got the one set of gates. Erm plus this er er for for passengers. But there wasn't there wasn't another set this side. Wasn't room. In fact it's a very narrow er er roadway there. It still is. Little er signal box at . I managed to go in and have a chat with the signalman. Erm pretty little thing, the er boxes are very standard er in design, they're they were varying in size, but erm the er sort of double hipped roof, the finials erm the angled corners, of the windows erm the er er the rails erm and the er sort of platform there, er very very standard er all over the place. They've got quite a few of these at erm at , at the Railway Trust, they've er they've got a number of these signal boxes. They reckon they've probably got more than B R now, there. Er but a pretty little box that is. That's another view of the of the same box. Now a little bit further up the line, whoops, is junction. Now used to be er a link line between erm this er track here, and round the back, erm under Road, there's still a bridge there, er and joined up near where the rubbish tip is. Erm and er so trains could er instead of going towards Lincoln having to perhaps back up to, they would go round er a triangle basically, and be facing towards , equally if they're coming back, they didn't have to go towards Lincoln, and then back, they could erm could erm go round and er take their wares to sidings and marshalling yards. Er inside, er is a wheel which with which the erm signal box, or signalman, er could er open and shut the gates as necessary. And er a line of levers for points, for signals, and some spares inside. And that was er duly inside, you've got a fair number of spares on that. The reds where the home signals, yellow, the distance, and I this the black were points were they not. That's looking up er towards er Nottingham,. . Long time ago,. An old, a very old photograph and a bit grainy. But erm a train just coming in er from Lincoln to Nottingham. . That's gone now. The signal box and the gates have gone, taken now probably five or six years or so ago. Again typical er box, erm rather attractive, has now got the er normal lifting barriers. There you can see the er box. Erm and er the er whatd'youcallit, the the er er the level crossing er and house. , in olden days, before they built the er bridge. When the all the traffic came across the level crossing there. There's still a signal box there. erm that's now a private house isn't it? Yeah, it's a listed building. But er rather nice. And a barrow, a very common sight, and this this type of er of awning, erm very very common, er the barge-boarding er and the er and and the again the roof and the er chimneys and very interesting sort of a In the garden erm of the sort of station master's house, is that. Very much like er the style used er in coal offices and erm weigh weighbridge at . That's still there. Erm where there's a caravan office, or caravan sales place just by the station, at , sorry at er . Erm I remember er thinking one day, erm I must get a photograph of that er building which was clearly a erm er a coal office or similar, I'll go back at the weekend and get that. I went back at the weekend and it was a pile of rubble. And that is the danger if you don't do things at the sec at the time, because er things do get er knocked down. Nice little building, little Wendy House there. .another picture of it. just playing . But er nice little summer house there. now. And let's just w just take one or two other pictures just for interest. Just to show you a bit further on. That's what Nottingham Station i used to look like from London Road Bridge. Isn't that beautiful. . Absolute er Changed a bit hasn't it since er Well the lines have gone, the signal box and er and so on. The old 's premises at the back. And the bridges, erm lovely O six O, and er erm four wheeled guard's, guard's van with a veranda at this end. Erm these er this is a one a of three or four photographs erm from the Society collection. We've got erm tens of thousands of photographs. Quite a number are erm there's quite a few taken in the Nottingham area in . Erm and this is one in Station, one of the spinners. Beautiful design locos. These erm finished there days really on easy graded routes such as the Nottingham Lincoln line. And er that's waiting to take a train out to Lincoln. Erm nineteen er probably just about erm nineteen nineteen, nineteen twenty time that one. There's another similar loco, Railway, one seventy eight, spinner. Nottingham behind. Underneath the old bridge over the top. Again a train to er out to Lincoln, one of the two four Os. Very much in use on the Lincoln line until certainly during the wars. Till till about the beginning of the second world war. Along with and the other guns of four four O. Mainstay of the motive power at the n, and on the Nottingham Suburban Services, erm the old er built erm er round top fire box, with the safety valves er and erm er well no condensing here or anything on it. And that's got a bell pipe fire box, and er valves on that. Again all in Nottingham Station, on local. And there we are ladies and gentlemen, as er all things should finish with the Queen. Erm That er concludes my little contribution to the evening's entertainment. Erm I hope it may be of some interest. Erm it is I assure you but a fraction of what I've got. but erm they difficulty is in erm let's say keeping within a couple of hours. Well that's fantastic.. Erm anyhow thank you er all very much. Right. Is there anybody how you got started singing? How I got started singing? Aye. Well me, oh, how I got started singing, it was really just I didn't sing very much really. My dad was a good singer. He wasn't a trained singer or anything, it was, just happened that he, he was a good singer. My younger brother he's a good singer as well. But er us Did he sing at home, your dad? He just sang round about the house, aha. And we just, he knew a lot of the, he was interested in si singing and he just knew the words and and just sang round about the house. Mhm. And he just sang too. You know that's how he he learnt. So what were his favourite songs? Oh dear, he was what would you say, I don't know He liked the kind of ballads, er he was a more a kind of bay he liked a ballad, so I really couldn't tell you who was his favourite singer or anything like that, just if a song interested him he just What do you mean by ballad kind of songs? Well more the slow, er songs, not the fast. The love songs and things like that ? Things like that. Mhm. but I I never sang anywhere, I just sang round the house as well. Mhm. And it was really er I think it was really the pantomimes that I started singing Was it? here, oh yes. I never I never went out Were you were you in the drama clubs here when you were younger then as well? I was in the Drama Club when I was when I stayed at home, but we didn't do pantomimes, we we did plays, one act plays, and three act plays, we did three act plays. We never did pantomimes. And er but that's the only time, you sang at weddings. So I said, Come on Mabel, sing. Or my father would sing So how long did you live in for? We've , into the village, we lived out in the countryside till I was eight, and we come down into the I should say town shouldn't I, we come down into the town when I was eight and I was there till I was twenty two, and I came up here, when I got married. Mhm, is Leslie from this part of the country? Les is from oh well he was, I think he was three when he came up here. He lived in, he was born in Castle Douglas. Mhm. But I think he was three when his father was sh came up here to work. What did his father do when he came here? Electrician, you know he still worked for the the electricity board . Did he come with the start of the scheme then really? No well it wasn't the scheme he worked on, he would go round and sort your cooker or you know he was that, maintenance, the maintenance side. Er other thing, and they lived down there opposite the garage, that was the electricity board house then. So would that be about er the late fifties or something you would you came here then yourself? I ca I came here in nineteen sixty one. Sixty one. Mhm. That's when I got married, nineteen sixty one, I came up. What did you think of when you came ? Well it was just a quiet wee village just I had come, wasn't much different it was quiet as well. Mhm. And er there wasn't there wasn't much difference really. Everybody was very friendly, it didn't matter whether you were an incomer or not, they always spoke. Mhm. You got to know people very quick in . That was one thing about the village, and your your neighbour would where Jane is the now, I don't think she'll have hardly seen her neighbour in Dumfries, but here they were always you know You couldn't get away from them. Oh they were in or out. So did you do any singing when you came here first? What was the first kind of thing you got involved in ? Oh the rural choir, I forgot about that, yes, I joined the rural choir and . And er I couldn't sight read or anything like, I can't sight read. But I can remember once when I was at the school Mrs was our music teacher and we were to go from doh to far, you know doh to far, and they used to s , she used to say listen to Mabel, Mabel's the only one one of you that can go from doh to far. But er so when we came Mrs the sight reading of course I was lost because she used to Is that Mrs John ? No Mrs Billy. Billy. She used to take the rural choir. How long had it been going then when you came? Oh it had been going for quite some time, I don't know really when they would start. Was it all ladies ? Mhm, yes, oh aye, all ladies. she was nearly retired, Billy she was nearly retiring by the, no still the girls go to her at the school so she must have been going for, two or three years after we came up here, but I would be in the choir just, maybe two or three years. And then it And did it it fell the choir fell folded up , Folded up and she Aye, oh retired? There was nobody else took it on. Was there a church choir going at that time then? Yes, aye there would be, just the same ladies that have s been in it for years. But there were men in it for quite a while, I was wondering when that kind of faded out. Oh that was faded out before That was a good while before Aye before we came up here. I wonder if, it Mr, was it choir or his father or something that had it, I can if I can remember somebody saying. So what was going on in the way of entertainments and things like that when you came to ? When I came up to live here? There was quite a few dances, in er, do you mean dances in the Town Hall? Ah there would be there well just one or two, not not every week or anything like that as far as I can remember. Just a few over the winter? Just aye, aye, oh they didn't have them in the in the summer, and of course in them days well the the bars shut at ten o'clock which meant you know they came into the dance hall just after that where nowadays the bars shut at twelve o'clock and It's hardly worth having a dance . It's not worth having a dance. But I heard the Town Hall was having one, not the Town, was it the Town Hall or Community Council having one between, I think it's the Town Hall, between Christmas and New Year and really I don't think it's worth their while having them then. Do you think that's been a big thing contributing to there being a=less dances and things then? Do you mean the bars being op oh I think And clubs. I think so really Do you think it's the main thing ? I think that's what's really, it's killed them as far Mhm. as the dances are concerned. And another thing is the young ones don't dance. They can Do you mean by young ones my generation ? I mean , yes, well maybe you can but I do but the the younger ones are ever er you know younger ones like Carl and them, they can disco but they they can't waltz or er foxtrot or How did you learn to waltz then? Just by going to dances, just by going to dances, we just, you just picked it up, your your partner could do it and you just learnt from there. Mhm. That's one thing I've always been a quick learner which has been quite Mhm. I think Jane's got er that as well. She seem to be able to pick thing sup. Does she like dancing? Not as fa not the dancing but when she was working in an office you know they just needed to show her something once and she could pick it up. Mhm. It was the same in the the pantomimes when Lily has learnt learnt the dancing, I could er after she had showed us about twice I could I could have it no bother and the rest of them were still struggling away trying to learn the steps. So it's quite an advantage. So did you go to dances quite a lot before you were married ? Oh yes in aye. Was that the place where everybody went to To the Town Hall. young lads and lasses would get together ? Lasses would yes, aye, to the dances. And they used to run er buses to different places, you know, you used to go to different places, and . And what kind of band played for the dances when you were in then? Bands like what Tommy has, you know accordion bands. That er they were all more or less that kind of band. So by the time you came here it would mostly just be Tommy that was playing? Roundabouts, er the only one I can remember is Tommy round about, you know playing er in the Hall. And , it was just these kind of bands that Mhm. were in those days, the accordion bands. So but we fair enjoyed them , they think, the younger ones don't like them nowadays but Mhm. we enjoyed them. Cos I like, I like the accordion, I like country dancing. Did you go to the Country Dancing Club at all? Oh yes. Went to the Country Dancing Club, used to go all over to the Country Dances Oh? to different places. It was supposed to have been quite good up at ,? Aye it was sti , yes it was still going when I came up here. Mhm Aha. Was it Mrs , from took it ? And were there men went to the country dancing as well? Oh yes , oh yes, aye. Not so many men as went ladies but er Do you think there was a lot of men. the rise of the Country Dancing Clubs was maybe be to kind of try and compensate in a way for the dances themselves going down, ordinary dances, folk were wanting to do the Scottish dancing and things? It could have been but you found you found at the Country Dancing, it was different people that was at the Country Dancing than what than what it was at the more at the the ordinary dances. Folk that maybe would have been shy to go to a Mhm. a big dance? Yes er maybe but would come to the country dancing. Or some of the older folk maybe that Folk, I think yes, it was more, mhm. Right. But you get country dancing that's very energetic really. Yes. But I oh I used to go to the country dancing. So was there a drama club going in when you came here? No. That would be finished up? That was finished up, mhm. What about the one, was it still going? When you came here? I don't think so, I can't remember eh it going then. Because I think it was Tommy that said it was really after the one finished and there was nothing else round about that there was a gap of a few years and then you got started again here. Yes, but er it was actually Mike that got it back up here,Mike and Grace , John 's first wife that started it up. I can remember Leslie coming home, I think I must have been expecting Doreen at the time, that was in, that was early early on, nineteen, well that was nineteen sixty three, and he was, he had heard that had I had been in the Gatehouse Drama Club, and er he said, Would I be interested in com in coming to the Drama in if they started? Leslie said he would need a special part for me then. But that it took another oh quite a number of years really to get it started up. They were very good for it's first Oh the first concert oh yes those kind of people. The f I often find that really the first year it was more fun and er then when they started on the plays and that it got more serious and A bit more like hard work really? It was really, there wasn't so much fun in it, it was all more serious. And when Bobby was there it really was I remember Oh yes. He and Andy together were very good . Mhm, yes, oh they were, aha. Bobby was really, he just kept it going really. Sometimes just one person like that or a couple of people ? It , it just needs a character really, just to keep it going. And he really was a character. somehow in the drama, even though it's so long since he passed away . There's nobody can replace individual people . There no, no, nobody at all. And do you think er the others feel that like you do about doing the plays that it's maybe a bit more of a strain you know the competitions and I think some of them do , yes, I know s er some of them have said how much they enjoyed it when it started off first, but er but now it's just got that wee bit more serious. We're with the plays, with going to the festival of course, you can't,you must be serious when you're practising for something like that . Do you feel like it's almost like doing a different thing that you're not, you know when you're actually acting in the play you're more self conscious and you're more conscious of what you're you're moving and you're speaking and whereas the likes of the panto you know you just be yourself really with a bit of fun thrown in . Yeah, yes, oh yes aye the plays the plays you've got to think what you're doing wand if you miss your cue line you're putting your, the person next, off as well that it is more er serious and you've got to think more I think Mhm. really. But however So you just kind of kept kept on singing, after the choir and that finished? Aha, when the pantomime started up that was just carried on in there. Not that I'm a great, good or great singer it's just I seem to have a strong voice. Unfortunately you can always hear me above everybody else. Oh dear. That's, you can But if er if folks spoke about you you know they would they would say you were a singer? Because you're seen in public and you do sing in public, there's a lot of people that sing but as you say it's sometimes just in their own homes or they used to but they would never sing in public ,they used to sing in the choir . Yes, sing in public, no no. I've I wouldn't I don't think I would go out if somebody said, Would you come and sing er at such and such a thing. I I don't think I would go. But in the pantomime, well you're singing with everybody else, you're not er on your own really. And the pantomimes a different thing altogether. Mhm. And I mun that I must have words in front of me, if I don't have words in front of me even though I know it, I I still forget it. But er That's right, just nerves. I think it's the nervousness that just knocks the words coming out of your head. Oh, It's easy to do. Aha. oh aye. But er do you quite like singing for folk that know you? Do you like singing in the village, where everybody knows you, or would you in some ways be less nervous do you think if you were singing like even to folk,who just don't so well ? Quite know me so well? Do you think that makes any difference? I think it would really in a way and yet the people in know how you sing so the whereas the maybe wouldn't know. Mhm. And you would you would be more, you'd be more nervous in case they they thought, Well she's terrible isn't she? But it would also be fresher for them, you know Oh yes. folk folk that know you either w might be too critical or they might just switch off because they have heard it before . They have heard it before, mhm. But I've never well I've never really You've never sang in anything other than the pantomime that Mhm. int he village you know, except maybe at at the Social or something like that, said, Come on up and sing and then I forget my words and that's me. Do you like to know where, for quite a while in advance what you're going to sing then ? I do really. Aha, I do really. If somebody's would l if somebody wanted me to sing I really would like to know er because Do you not have a wee store of your favourite things then that you Oh I have a wee store, yes, but you see you don't carry them, I don't carry them with me, if I carried them with me I could sing I could, well that's it, If you did it more often maybe, I feel if, yes, you would remember them an awful lot easier. Aha. But er What, how did how did you collect the songs that you sing then, I mean were they just things that Just taking aye, just songs that I liked and I just er take them off tapes and, and records, and I just write them down, Do you do that all the time? Are you always, when you're hearing something Mhm. you're listening Mhm. thinking, Oh I'd like to sing that . And I'd like to, aye, and I just write it down in a if it's on a tape you can put that pause on and just take line by line, you know. Mhm. But erm and if you listen to the tape long enough you can, I can pick up the tune, Mhm. as well, and just, and have the words. And then as long as the pianist or the accordionist know the tune I'm alright Can you take it off the Mhm. music as well though if you had to? If somebody gave you a bit of sheet music? No. No I would have to learn the tune like by listening to the Aha. to the person singing. Aha. That's the only way I would learn a tune, I couldn't sight-read the Mhm. the music off a sheet. Right. Do you have you ever had a go at the piano or that? No, though I would like to have been able to have played, I can remember saying to my mother once, I would like to have been able to have learnt the piano. And er but of course they couldn't afford to buy me a piano to learn on so Mhm. that was it. Any other instruments Mhm. you particularly like? I that I like? Or would have, to listen to? To listen to, to listen to, mhm. I like the guitar, I like to listen to the guitar, not the classical stuff, I'm sorry to say but, I like to listen to the guitar. Or er a clarinet, I like the sound of Aha, aha oh I like the sound of a clarinet, mhm, I think they're lovely. But er the piano's the only one I would of like to have learnt to play. Mhm. I often feel sorry that I never was able to play but Oh you still could Plenty of adverts about . Yes oh yes, aye . practice in the town hall. Well we had a piano actually, we got it for Doreen and Doreen she started to learn, she went to Mr . Remember Mr that used to live at ? She went to him and then he flitted away. And er she just never went anywhere else and gave up. And Carol liked to come through and just tinker but she never got lessons or anything so we just sold it. Mhm. But, as long as the music had doh ray mes written on it I could play with one hand but Mhm. other than that I was lost. Mhm, do you think it's quite good Mhm. that they're getting a lot of music at school these days and? I think it is, yes, I think it's a great thing really. Do you think it's important? Yes, erm I can't give you a reason why I think it's important though. But I think it is. I think it's a it's the lighter side of the their their schooling. They have a serious side but they must have a lighter side as well, mustn't they? In the school. But you must really enjoy singing to yourself, you must find that something Oh I do. you get out of singing that you don't get anywhere else. Its's no, no, I I do enjoy, I r I like singing. I like the music. I I'm really interested in music. Do you feel as if you're really expressing something In the music, in the song . Even if it's just a simple wee song? Mhm, mhm, it is, it's lovely . everybody should be able to feel that they can do that, you know? Aha. Aye, sure they should. So is there an what kind of things would you like to see in the village and round about int eh way of more music or less music or a different music? Would you like more dances ? Or ? Myself, I'd I'd really enjoy dancing, er so does Leslie, Leslie enjoys dancing as well. But er You would go to more it there were more do you think? Well nowadays I don't know whether you should record this or not, but nowadays erm they'll not go unless they've been to the bar or something before that well unfortunately Leslie's not able to drink now, he can't after his operation, he can't take, it just upsets him altogether so he can't go to the bar and all the rest of the company have been to the bar and they're in a different mood than what Leslie is, so Leslie'll just not go, and it just, it's kind of, cut him off Mhm. there, you know. That's a shame. That er it should be any account for a pension fund should carry the name of pension fund and any transactions involved with pension fund money wh it should be a duty of the Financial Institution to make sure that any account they were paying money into was a pension fund account. If I may say so the key point isn't it that a lot of the transactions you discussed were off market transactions, they were unusual transactions and the Financial Institutions that were carrying out those transactions whether they were acting as banker or acting a as broker, they would have had knowledge that those transactions were not normal market transactions. So if the law was clear that in those circumstances they should have been on notice and should have therefore watched where the money was going, there wouldn't have been a problem and are we not saying that legitimate stock lending which I think is what is about is suggesting, if carried on properly on the market, would be all right, but if it immediately goes off market into the back doors and back rooms and people can't see what's going on and the Financial Institutions take part in that, then they are doing something that un undoubtedly is probably going to cause loss to pension funds and shouldn't there be a clear law which makes them liable in those circumstances. No you were saying weren't you? Oh I'd say it is Yes. wrong anyway in that er I'll say it's the er early on it in the report Good defines what he determines a prus trustees duty and as I said to a sort of effectively orb enter into a tr transaction which immediately cost effecting kind of money rather than making money for the pension fund er is against that duty in the first place, but it to it should however be ma made explicit that it is against that duty which I will say stock lending may be okay for a pension fund, but not stock lending where the er pension fund is acting as the borrower rather than the lender. Right, Ken any other points? Er can I er I I started to comment on about the er er bank accounts and which are y you know er my the reaction that I saw was all round the table er I think we would go further but er any company handling pension funds should carry pensions somewhere in their names on all on all their paperwork etcetera so that everybody's totally clear that they are dealing with pension funds and er er to agree with a comment that you made in one of your earlier reports that er designation of bonus of shares of pension funds should be clearly er marked on those shares er that also would have a at least alerted these financial institutions as once again that they were handling stocks belonging to pension funds and they still ignored it in that that w case that they did, but er they would have not had the excuse that er apparently some of them have made that er they were not aware that these were pension fund assets. I think they are still claiming well it's not that I didn't know, but anyway Ken Er we did we were gonna raise a point on that the clash of the regulatory rules and the producery duty of under trust law, you know and I I think there you know there there was a comment that that I picked up with Professor Gower you know in his report which I think where he said the Government obviously have greater confidence than I in reliance on pristine trust law in relation to modern commercial developments such as unit trusts and occupational pension schemes, which its founding fathers never contemplated. Now there was nothing in Good really that I think addressed this mismatch between those two types of law. Now I think that the Good did say oh well there is a law commission report expected, but I think that you know the Good should address somewhere tha that problem of trust law and regulation should and then I did in fact on going through the report and er you know and also your own reports erm there's the one about designation of assets you know, which I think was a very good recommendation of yours, I think the actual area of responsibilities and the wider role of actuaries was important. I think the inde independent corroboration for actuaries was another important factor, custody confirmation by the auditors, veto of transfer of assets, independent auditors for pension funds, independent custodian arrangements, in-house investment management, you made some comments, co-ordination of the various regulators, co-ordination of the professional advisers, establishment of the Pension Tribunal, you know now as far as I was concerned on on my sort of looking through it, those were all recommendations that that you have made over your two years and I couldn't really find any response to those in Good, and I think that's er you know we we personally found that disappointing. Also I mean er we take your point and we've made it before Ken that there's a real danger of asking for a report from someone like Professor Gower and then picking it, instead of actually taking the whole thing because it does actually add together in some sort of coherence erm and had Professor Gower's report been an exception in this entirety, we may not have been had the pleasure of having you back again today, but thank you very much, er all three of you for coming points so clearly Thanks very much at the end was very good wasn't it? Mm. that's good. Mm. Very good. Yes. All right, we want to make a start if we can, if people could settle down. What I'm gonna ask you to do, if you could introduce each of yourselves and say which pension fund you er come from er and if we start from your left, my right. Oh the thing in front of me it's Malcolm Adams and I'm with the National Association of British Steel Pensions. It's John Mostin also with the National Association of British Steel Pensions. I'm Gay Appleby, General Secretary for the National Federation of Post Office and B T Pensions. I'm Ron Smart, Chairman of the British erm Federation of Post Office and B T Pensions. Jim Castle, Member of the Imperial Tobacco Pension Fund. I'm Michael Smedley, Chairman of the Impact which is the Imperial Tobacco Pension Fund. Gay. Thank you Chairman erm I would like I know that you've been listening to the first er part of our session this afternoon, erm and I'd like to ask you to discuss with us one of the questions that we asked the group the Pension Fund erm and that's to discuss the balance of power that exists between the employer and the various groups and classes of pensioner. Perhaps if I just start with that simple question and see how it develops. What help us,we we'll go to we'll direct the questions to different people erm and if you agree, just say you agree so that we don't have er erm a session of people just rec reciting what everybody else has said, but if we start with you erm Jim, sorry I can't see the Michael Smedley. Yes, right. Erm, we feel very strongly about this that there should be a balance of power with the employer nominating no more than half of the trustees. After all he's put the money in to pay pensions and the beneficiaries ought to have a strong hand in saying how that money is used, so we see half the trustees coming from the employer, the other half from the members of the pension fund, and we've got a pension fund with the very heavy weighting of er pensioners and not so many employees and we would like to see the remaining seats er half the trustees elected, partly from the current employees, partly from the deferred pensioners and partly from the pensioners and reflecting in a broad way the numbers in each of those categories. Erm We think that would be a fair way of of erm managing the fund and avoiding the case of having tame tame trustees who do what they employer tells them. B T, same or different? Erm well slightly different in the fact that er we er have two close schemes with far more er beneficiaries than there are er subscribing members, and at the moment that are four nominated by the er employer and four by the unions er we wish to say a pensioner erm that the rights were a pensioner nominee to that board of trustees, because we feel that er the situation is er is going to increase, we've got so many beneficiaries and that the pensioners have no representative er I know that erm people on the boards of trustees are completely impartial, but on the other hand there is no pensioner there, the members are unsure of the fund, because of what's been said, not that I'm implying it's not a secure fund, it is a secure fund, but they think why are they keeping the pensioners off, they there is some sort of hidden agenda they will not have us on there because neither of the businesses although we have tried for several years er they will not entertain at the moment erm a pensioner trustee, and yet Professor Good in his report acknowledges the merit of pensioner nominated trustees, er particularly in the sort of schemes where we've got,wh where th the majority of beneficiaries. Great, British Steel? Yes er I think we're just slightly different again er Chairman inasmuch that the British Steel Pension Scheme at the moment has fifty ce fifty per cent employer er trustees and fifty per cent nominated trade union trustees. We too would like to see some pensioner and pensioner trustees on that trustee board, but we do also recognise because it is er a large scheme heavily weighted er with er pensioners and deferred pensioners in the very fact that it has been transferred from the public centre of public er sector into the private sector, that we would like to see an independent trustee er er appointed on to the er Committee of Management it would er er sort of act as a balance and be able to provide er specialist advice to particularly the Trade Union Trustees and for that matter the Employer Trustees so as to keep a broad balance of what's happening within the that time. Very good er we may come back to that in a moment. Thank you. But listening to you make that case it's very similar to reading the great debate on franchise reform in this House in the last century, when people said we should be included and that people like us should be able to have the vote and put people into Parliament, it's I mean it was just that you were you were making that plea about pro that the Board should be representative as being like the group who are benefiting. You've made very powerfully erm and I'm that's a point that we'll take on board. When you talk about this split, fifty-fifty, could we go back that way. Who elects the Chairman? Well that's er that's another thing that's happened within the British Steel's er scheme, the Chairman seems to be elected in himself or by the company, it's certainly not e elected by the Trustee Board and er a and we would like to see You mean parachuted in is he? Yes, he's certainly parachuted in. all right. But who but, but that's describing what happens, how do you think the Chairman should be elected? I think Even letting you you've all talked about the you know employers are paying money in and so on, we don't want the schemes wound up, er if I was the the employer, might I not be concerned if you elected a a chairman that wasn't erm favourable to me? Er you might er the company might well be concerned about that point, but er I think if the composition of the Board was er correct, that er that possibly wouldn't arise. What you mean you'd have blocking mechanisms? Yes. Yes, very good, I see the point. Thanks. I see no reason additionally why the independent people on the Board should not act to protect the company in the same way as they're trying to help protect the other members . Yes, but your colleague has also made the point that the constitution might have a blocking mechanism so that people, both sides, could be satisfied, wasn't it. But Post Office and B T management appoint the Chairman of the Trustees, there are four Trustees appointed by the Yes. Management, four by the Trade Unions and the Chairman is appointed by the management. Right. No, no, the present the present one was a I think he was a Chairman of a big building society before he came into the Post Office and they use these are on three year terms, but er the previous Post Office one er spent nine years as Chairman, spent three yea three terms of three years. So they're there for three years? Yes. Right and er is it a full-time job the Chairmanship? Erm I don't know, I don't think it's erm I mean I I think it occupies er seventy-five percent of his time, but it isn't full-time. No, I was just thinking,we we're, we're debating the in the Commons at the moment, changing the parole board from having part-time members, to having salaried full-time ones, which are on limited contracts and that clearly puts those parole board members in a different position to the Home Secretary and one it's ju you just do it because it's a part-time activity, you may get some expenses that you think is important, and I just wanted to get clear whether the Chairman on a limited contract a large part of their work appointed by the employer. Thanks. Our Chairman is appointed by the company and is usually a senior management member. Right. The erm pensioners and the employees have no say whatsoever in that. Very good. That's that's the present case, but I think er impact would say that with a fifty-fifty split, then those trustees should elect their own chairman and should be free to bring in independent trustees, so if you had a board of say four company members and four elected by the members er of the pension fund, they might decide to have two outside independents, one of which they would choose as the Chairman. So you no longer have a fifty-fifty split then, do you? Er you er you'd have two outside independents and you couldn't say how they would be, but they would be elected by the whole te whole er Board of Trustees. Jane? Er I'm forgive me if this information is already available to the Committee but er are each of your schemes are they money purchase schemes or final salary schemes? Ours is a finance salary scheme. committee did draw distinction between the two different kinds of schemes, erm perhaps if I could just ask you what do you think of the committee the Good reports er conclusion on training for trustees where they er the recommendation was that it was a laudable objective, but should not be made compulsory? Er can I answer that. We er are fortunate enough in having a training scheme, in fact we were able to elect our first pensioner representative trustee two years ago and he is with us today, we've just had another election and er two this time were elected, they will be trained, they had er Mr Hill had a two-day training by our actuaries er Watsons which are a big company, er but in talking to him about it he felt there was a lot to be said for having continued training, not just at the beginning of a two or three-year stint, but successively later. It's a big responsibility which is very much on the trustees shoulders, he is, he is standing on his own there and it's We were we were only smiling then because Watsons also trains us It's one of our advisors. No, but we feel that's very important indeed. Absolutely, no. No, no we understand the value of that don't we. Erm well we would like to see training of the trustees, there is no training at the moment er for the trustees in erm either of our schemes er and we very much in our submission came out we felt there should be er training from the trustees. Right. Yes, we would like to er certainly see er training become compulsory with trustees and we would also like to see er guidelines set er for that particular training, so that train so that the trustees within all schemes would receive similar training, rather than piece-meal by one set of actuaries or another set of actuaries. Erm can I just clarify this point, the impression I'm getting from the, from the phraseology in the way you've chosen your words is that your trustees in your particular pension funds which all er former nationalised industries, er haven't received any training. Is that correct that er That is correct. Well the as far as we know the er certainly the trade union Don't get any. Don't get any. When the management trustees get any training, we don't know. Yes, in British Steel they, they do receive training, they do receive training. Right. Even if but I'm not saying that it's er the proper type of training that we would like to s You were saying that in fact you still don't get any training. That's correct. Yes, so you're privatised? That's correct. Yeah. Just to make a party point, is that all right? Even accepting the fact that training is desirable I think that the trust law is so complex I know. That it's very, very difficult indeed to be trained to know all the parts of it. In the last analysis is the innate honesty of a trustee who realises that perhaps something is going right and takes advice. Could we just quickly, who should pay for the training of the trustees, employer or the trust? The trust. The trust? The trust, yes. Pen pension fund. Very very good. David? Of course the role of the trustees is, is, is re- affirmed really by Good who er says that there under the under trust or as he sees it, the trustees should remain the legal owners of the fund and I wonder if we can move on to ownership. I I think you were all here listening to the erm pensioners before you were they were talking about their ideas which were also our ideas in our er report on the designated ownership of, of the pension funds and in particular they had a couple of ideas which you may have heard about having the word pension in the in the names, just technical points, er pension in the names of er of the funds and and people who were er giving advice on behalf of them. I wonder if you could like anybody would like to elaborate on that? We'll start at the far end. Can I, can I just pass for a minute and think on this one and come back. Mm I will pass as well temporarily. Erm It's really sorry, it's really the, the question of whether the the the the pension fund belongs to the trustees or is it has been found Well erm in our organisation and it was in our submission that we felt that it er it should belong wholly to erm the employer erm it should belong to the beneficiaries as well, because we feel very strongly that the pension is deferred pay, it is deferred salary, and therefore they should have an ownership of part ownership in that fund. They pay in six per cent of their salary, why should they be debarred from saying that they own part of those funds. We feel that erm you know that they're both very good schemes an and well run, but we still feel that erm the e fund should not be owned entirely er by the employer. British Steel? Thank you. Well we consider that er pensions er contributions are deferred pay, including the employers contributions erm that the fund should be held on trust by the trustees and that the employer should have no ownership in it whatsoever. Very good. Er I would, I would echo that, that we feel that they money has been paid in for work or services done by the employer and by the er fund members themselves have contributed and I don't think it belongs to either of those parties in any more, it's held by the trustees to pay pensions, if for nothing it's been put there just to pay pensions, it's not a piggy bank for er for companies to draw out with the with their tame er trustees allowing it, it it's money the trustees hold in in trust and I believe that's the law at the moment and er I I think we would like to see that confirmed in any new law. Good, thank you. off that, er I think several of us believe that the complexities of trust law at the present moment can make it very difficult if one agreed. Our own particular case is our case went to the High Court some three hundred thousand pounds, when perhaps if we'd had a dedicated pensions act setting out what could and could not be done, that would never have happened. You, you have a history of legal actions don't you? Sorry sir? You have a history of legal actions Not we ourselves No, no but the companies which we belong. doesn't it, yes indeed. What's the state of play on the second one, did it were, were the trustees all dismissed, or did Brown Wilkinson's judgment stop that? Erm th the net result of it the proposal stopped dead, are those who did not wish to transfer, meaning the pensioners, had an increased inflation percentage as a result er pensioner representatives have been appointed, widows have had a increased pension. How much of that flows from the court case,I I wouldn't like to say, but my guess is quite a bit. So you won on that, didn't you, because the proposal was to be no increases unless you transferred, wasn't it? Mm Yes, indeed. Thank you. Any other comments? it goes on in our case, that both of our pension funds have had massive surpluses, i.e. erm there was a reported surplus by Watsons the actuaries, of one point erm seven billion which suddenly er vanished within one year to a seven er seven hundred million deficit and Er it er seven hundred and fifty three million of course our members er of which we've got a hundred and twenty three thousand, flood the lines into Luton wanted to know what happens they imagined a surplus as being some pot of er big tub of notes that they can dip it and we can dip into, but of course the surpluses have been used basically by British Telecom in particular for funding early retirement schemes er we're in no way in knowledge whether the money's every been paid back. We've been told that er everything's done in, in the relation to the trustee but of course when you're talking about massive sums of one point seven billion, our members er who are seventy five/eighty olds who suffered the problem of the inflatory years, their pensions haven't kept, kept pace with the with the people that are retiring now. We're gonna come Although although there's a lot of people who feel they're all living in the lap of luxury if you're Post Office or B T pensioners, they aren't and we haven't been able to get this surplus er in any way used for the benefit of those people and er and that's where the ownership of the fund really and the surplus are tied in together. We're gonna, we're gonna stay on this issue of ownership and surpluses for a little time, cos it's actually so important, but it's not unreasonable for your pensioners to think that here was this pot of money to which one could dip into, but the only thing is the pot of money disappeared didn't it? Yes,an and what really upset the erm the, the members of the scheme and the pensioners was the fact that the money was going to actually erm fund the redundancy per programme er for the business and was going to the benefit of the employees and none of it was going to the actual pensioners. Although they didn't, they didn't act illegally, they didn't say right, we're going to make the redundancy payment act, but what they did say you retire at fifty, we will make your we will enhance your pension to what you would have got at age sixty, we will enhance your lump sum to what you would have got at age sixty and erm give you a redundancy payment from the firm and obviously everybody fifty and plus they've gone in thousands, they had enormous waiting lists and then they had to say no, you can't go you know, too many people wanted to go. What happened, people should have been paying in for ten years were suddenly taking out for ten years and these huge enormous sums and obviously the surplus which our members had helped to build up er and provide through the years and we've got seventy-five year olds on you know, extremely low pensions hardly making ends meet, and there were vast sums of money being given away to the employees, that the employers took a contribution holiday and so they weren't paying into the fund either you know, and all the profits of B T as you all know were soaring and partially because of the use of the pension funds and this has greatly obviously erm upset our members and we feel very strongly about it. Right. As you are probably aware Chairman from the media that the British Steel National Association of British Steel Pensioners also have a problem with a surplus and are seeking legal advice as to what has taken place. Er certainly the surplus was used to er create a new scheme for the present contributing members and er to the maximum benefit of the new sponsoring company, which er in the pensioners view er certainly er caused a great lack of security to the fund in our view of what they have done and er it is of in our opinion a matter of public concern and that we welcome the opportunity and I believe that you said previously that you're gonna come up on the ownership of surplus, so perhaps getting away from it We absolutely no, no, you'll find we won't leave this topic cos there's three people who actually want to come in now and I'm going to bring them in round the table. Clifford first and then er Can I take you back to the er the Good Report er about Trust Law,i it the report er concludes that it should be retained as the framework for er occupation of pension schemes. Now I M P A C say that they believe there should be a dedicated pensions act to replace trust law and the National Federation Post Office and B T pensioners say trust law should continue to be the basis of pension funds. Could tell could each of you tell us why you take a different view? One way or another, I'm not quite sure what the the state of the We believe now outdated, it was never designed to deal with the current situation the modern situation and when you are talking about debts of some four hundred thousand million pounds, trust law does fall down. The only recompe the only resource anyone has is to go to the courts, for the courts to decide what the law is at that present moment. Now that's a costly business as we know to our cost, we didn't have to pay the three hundred thousand pounds, the pension fund did, but we had to risk paying those to go to court. Now next year something else might happen and somebody may be forced to go to court, if they cannot go to court they cannot get justice and they have to wait to see what happens. Now we have in the Companies Act a Table A which gives you a suggested er model, Memorandum of Association and Articles Association, why not a dedicated pensions act which says in here these are the minimum terms you must contain in your Trust Deed. You can better them if you wish, but you cannot go below them. People would know exactly where they stood then and we wouldn't have to go keep going to the courts to develop the theory of Trust Law. So you'd leave the Trust Law in existence, so you wouldn't call cause a total legal revolution, but you would impose on that a spy of legal requirements which if trusts wish to through Trust Law enhance, they could, but they h all have to bring their agreements up to that minimum? Up to that minimum yes Yeah, very good. A model, model trust deed. Yeah. Yes, B T? page two of your submission Yes. paragraph We felt that erm Trust Law had worked effectively erm you know over the years erm w we were happy with the extra powers that the er committee were recommending and the extra precautions that the committee were recommending that we brought in, but erm we would be happy with that backup to continue with the Trust Law. Even in the situation that we find ourselves in with the Maxwell Pension situation, where we find that the the erm Trust Law didn't prevent the things from happening which did happen. Do you still take that view? But they hadn't got the backup of erm like th the regulator appointed. I'm sorry I couldn't hear everything that the Maxwell people were saying, sitting behind me,you you've lost their, their voice and you you know, I couldn't hear what they were saying. But wi with the appointment of er of the regulator and the oth the other erm recommendations that were made by the report, we think with that backup w w we are still basically happy to continue with Trust Law. Well I er er we I wasn't speaking about the, the evidence today, I'm speaking about evidences that have been taken in the past, where we had even trustees before the committee. We informed the committee that regardless to the fact that they were trustees, they were in no position to challenge Mr Maxwell and under those conditions then they felt that the the law should be changed that the Trust Law wasn't sufficient to er look after pensions, because they felt that in certain circumstances in fact gave evidence to the committee, various people gave evidence along those lines, that they were almost powerless against Mr Maxwell and that's . That's why I'm surprised you, you take this Can I put Clifford's point to the point that we're still discussing er which is about the surplus and how both your legal frameworks you're advocating relate to the answers you've given us about surplus and the concern about surplus. Now if I, am I right in saying that B T is happy to continue er with the present framework of Trust Law, because within that framework you've proposed to us er a er a body of ideas about the composition of the numbers of trustees and who they should represent, which would make it much more difficult for employers to raid the fund. Yes, because you would have your pensioners and your employers, yes. And B T so and Imperial who's had a different experience to you after a takeover bid from a new employer clearly wants a legal framework, steel braces put within Trust Law to make it much more clear where power lies in th the operati operation of the trust and that possibly one one of those steel braces would the law would relate on h who could get their hands on the surplus and in what conditions. So to some extent your responses re i is quite naturally a response to the position you face with your employers isn't it. Our response to it was of course that er since the Post Office was re released from the Civil Service in nineteen sixty-nine to trustee, to pen the trustees, there's been a minimum amount of trustees er I can recollect on those on the funds and we've not had any problem. I don't think the management interferes with the fund like the Maxwell situation. Certainly in our meetings with the with the presentations we get from the trustees every year about the fund, we meet the trustees, we haven't er any erm real worry of saying that the pension trust hasn't operated, because I think our the trustees of those two funds are much more independent than the Maxwell ones er were. I'm not trying to put them on an equal par, but later Maxwell erm Action Group were concerned with four hundred and eighty million disappearing. Yeah. You've told us one point seven million disappeared in surplus Well Deficit. Billions. Billions, into a deficit erm that there are large the problem we're looking at now is these very large transfer of assets which people feel that they built up with their contributions and whether that's right or not. can I just ask British Steel, that I mean you're hearing the other two groups. In a sense responding to our questions, naturally, depending on how they've been treated by their employer can we have your comments about the sort of legal framework you think the pension fund should be in and then Jeremy will take over. Right, well I think the biggest problem with Trust Law is that it expects too much of trustees. It starts off essentially defining them as people who are impartial, and in no time at all we are talking about them being nominated from different sector interest. However, I think the practicalities in the situation are that we have to face the fact that they are not going to behave impartially and you see we have a classic example in er the circumstances of our own situation as described by John. We have an equal spit of company nominated and member nomina and union nominated trustees. They basically carved up our surplus between them and each supported the other and overriding all of that is that each and every one of them was an active member of the scheme. Now how under those circumstances do you achieve the impartiality that's supposed to be the cornerstone of Trust Law? That's brilliantly put. Right, Jeremy. Yeah, really the question I want to put is to the er B T Post Office er representatives, that y you made a perfectly reasonable objection to the way in which B T funded it's early retirement scheme from the pension fund. Obviously this was challenged at some point. What I don't quite understand is what was the legal basis on which they went ahead with this despite the objection, presumably as some of the trustees as to what was being done, I could hear we're talking of er a deficit of one point seven billion appearing or it a surplus disappearing into a deficit, which is actually four times as much has disappeared out of Maxwell. Okay we know where it went and we know what it was used for, but er my question to you is, is it a legitimate use of a pension fund to fund a business development scheme which involves early retirement? Well we did take some er legal advice on it and we were told that it was not illegal, erm I mean we think it's highly immoral erm, but we were told it was not illegal, because they did not actually use the er the redundancy money did not come out of the fund, only this enhanced pension etcetera which was using up the, the surplus and we were told And it started the pension payments at a younger age or something? Pardon? They started paying Yes, at fifty instead of sixty, they said you retire at age fifty and we will make your pension up to what you would have got at age sixty and we will also do the same with you lump sum and so now you know, this and they did that with thirty thousand I think went in one year, it doesn't take long to get rid of one point seven billion pounds when you're doing for that er that number of people erm and I think the problem is that this one point seven billion was er an actuarial assessment by Watsons i it may never have been that amount of money. Directly directly B T started erm saying well thirty thousand employees will go this year under B T ninety-two scheme i.e. they will go at fifty, they will draw their pension at fifty, which isn't the trust deed and for many years Inland Revenue point blank refused to let anybody draw a pension below sixty. They changed that, so the money er it's a bit different than the Maxwell, the money hasn't been erm a switched over to the Cayman Islands and all over the place, it's it's stayed in, in the but of course we're told by the trustees and by our legal advice that nothing illegal's taken place, the money's been used to st er finance early voluntary retirement etcetera, etcetera. If the Trust Deed says the pension has to be paid at sixty, then the Trust Deed says it has to be paid at sixty, surely that you know, that's something you can't get rid of. The schemes now are paid a pension at fifty, but the only, the only snag I understand is it isn't inflation, inflation proofed until fifty-five, but people are drawing their pensions and they get their lump sums at fifty and it's enhanced to take into account the actual and expected earnings for the next three years, so er you take thirty thousand people, one point seven billion can soon erm Disappear. Can soon disappear. Clarify a point here. I if someone's their pension at fifty Yes. and they had joined British Telecom at twenty, Yes. Then they will have paid some thirty years thirty years yes. into the pension fund Yes. Presumably the maximum was about forty or was forty-five Forty-eight er yes. Forty eight and and presumably many of the people who are perhaps seventy drawing pensions, they may not have even paid in thirty years themselves, I mean they may be many of them may not have been around for that period of time. So in fact there may be a quality of treatment actually between someone retiring at fifty or fifty-five in terms of the number of years paid into the pension fund, as someone say age seventy. Well I doubt it actually at the moment. Pardon? The operative word there is might. Yes erm because I doubt it, erm at the moment with the fund that we're talking about the erm the close scheme, because most of these people in B T were originally erm in the Post Office, and of course when the they split erm then the erm Post Office workers went over to B T, they get a B T pension but in actual fact they paid into a pension scheme erm for many of them for forty years because they come into that age group, where so many people, you took a job when you were twenty o or or sixteen and you stayed with it for life, you didn't chop and change like people do these days and the majority of our members erm we can go down and I would say the vast majority of our members have actually worked for the Post Office or starting with the Post Office and then B T or staying with the Post Office for forty years, there's no end of them they've got in there forty years service. So no, I can't agree there, that there is erm unequality, they think they are being hard done by. also history if I might just say that when the Post Office er split from the Civil Service, the firm was in deficit for twenty years and of course Post Office management say quite clearly that they were putting in sums of eighteen per cent of the pay bill when it was only supposed to be nine per cent of the pay bill and that's why they're entitled to the to the surplus. B T say the same, that for twenty years the firm was in deficit and both managements put in much more than the Trust Deed says to keep us to keep the fund afloat. But that Employees paid their six per cent of their erm salary. Mm, yeah. But the both until B T split from the Post Office, the Post Office put in if I remember rightly in negotiations those days er they were putting in something like fourteen per cent of the pay bill. I don't want to get on to that I think the point has been made er and let me er ask you to correct me if I if you don't i it's a fair assessment, the point that's really being made is there is a judgmental issue here as to whether a surplus arises from over-funding by an employer er substantial investment performance or or effectively unfair claiming between either the deferred pensioners or the pensioners and i it can be that all of those interests have to put into the pot and it's a judgment as to who actually is doing best in what circumstances. I said I didn't want to get on to this area because it's you know, we could go on all night discussing whether this, well whether that. We we ar it was really helpful if we are concrete in actually the answers that we give rather than speculative. Jane. doesn't it come back to the issue of wh who they trustees are and who's interest, given that trustees are expected to be independent, in the end, who's interests do the trustees represent, because I've had experience of working with a pension fund that was in massive surplus and the actualar actuaries refused to agree their final report until that surplus was dealt with, so that the trade unions and the employer through the trustees had to negotiate a way of spending that surplus and er given the pressures of the actuaries to say we were not allowed th the funds to continue unless you deal with this surplus, then it comes back to the issue of how the Board of Trustees is made up and if we accept that there is a degree of representation on that Board, then just exactly how that representation is divided. Well in both our our er incidences what happens is that the actuary recommends what erm should happen. Watsons actually recommended what should happen with both the surpluses and their recommendation was that both businesses should take a contribution holiday for the next three, five and maybe even be ten years in the Post Office, depending how investments go erm an- and there was no discussion erm between or negotiation between anybody. That was recommended to the employers, the employers said yes, that's the action they would take, they put it to the trustees, the trustees agreed it and that was it. Full stop. Well i it's becoming slightly unfair because Watsons isn't on the stand, Watsons would also you know probably spell out in a little bit more detail, but their advice was comprehensive that there were Inland Revenue rules that it would put the tru and so on and one would want to s to say that tha that as well, but I do want to move on. British, British Steel, yes? Yes,I I would like to come in to say how our er scheme was transferred from the er British Steel Pension Scheme to the new scheme in nineteen ninety. Now once the benefits were approved er by the Trust Deed and er bearing in mind that the Chairman at that meeting informed the Trustee and I quote in determining the structure of the scheme the company was prepared to enter into consultation with the Trade Unions and Trustees, but this was a consultative process only and not a subject for negotiation; and their company then went on to seek the er er the transfer of the present contributing members er er and a hundred of the members agreed er to transfer into that new scheme. Now The Trust Deed and rules were asked for prior to their consent and the company made it clear that they would not be available until after the new scheme commenced on the first October nineteen ninety and indeed it was some eight days later on the ninth October at er Trustee meeting that the company presented the Trust Deed and rules and it was resolved that the Committee of Management would er transfer all the close scheme members er into the new nineteen ninety scheme and er the same Trustees appointed themselves er Trustees of the nineteen ninety scheme and one hour later were the presentation of a draft deed amending the British Steel Pension Scheme and a draft interim Trust Deed establishing the British Steel Pension Scheme in nineteen ninety and a draft Trust Deed and rules of the British Steel Pension Scheme of nineteen ninety were tabled for noting; and those very Trustees that were on the first meeting agreed to transfer the assets to the new scheme, set as Trustees of the new scheme one hour later, accepted the assets and er without er seeking either legal or actuarial advice and in this case er Watsons were advisors to the company to the old scheme Trustees and to the new scheme Trustees. The difference though between you and Imperial Tobacco was that the Trustees went into the Courts didn't they? Yes. dissimilar. The reason they went into Court though was that erm I M P A C which was formed to protect the pensioners had threatened an injunction if they did not go to Court. So er listening to the gentleman on the left er echoes of nineteen ninety High Court case. Yes. So you were saying who were threatening an injunction if you didn't go into Court? We engaged a solicitor to look into the matter and he became convinced that there was I won't say a loophole, that there was a reason why this should not be done and er requested the Committee of Management to to Court for advice. This was done in the name of one of our pensioners. And stated that if they did not do so, we would an injunction to stop the proposals going through. The Committee of Management took the advice and went to the High Court and as a result the proposal was stopped. Jimmy? Yes, Mr Chairman it seems to me regarding that you could drive a double deckered bus through the legislation, and Goodey has not looked at it satisfactorily as far as I'm concerned and as far as many of the scheme members are concerned, I mean he has concluded that the employers are still entitled to er do what they like with the surplus, the only thing that he recommends that they do it with the approval of the regulator himself, but he the other thing that the Goodey has reported and concluded, that as long as they get their hundred per cent minimum requirement they can still go on their contribution holidays, and many and my scheme members feel that this is just a it's a freebie as far as they're concerned and scheme members don't do not benefit from the surplus and they would like to have seen or preferred to have seen Goodey making a change for the benefit of the scheme members paying into a scheme, rather than employers going away in a contribution holiday. Now is there any other er pension funds that do likewise or have any other experiences as far as surpluses are concerned? I I find issue with one point in the Good Report, when he mentioned that a surplus is a notional surplus, it cannot crystallize until the fund actual close down. If it is in fact a notional surplus, then why is the employer allowed to take money out of that notional surplus, he's taking real money out of from a notional surplus, it should not be allowed. told you didn't he that the surplus the only way one would know there was a surplus there was when the fund was closed, when every pensioner had been paid money left. But in view of the fact that different actuaries can come to different answers and Professor Good quotes one where a difference of half per cent gives rise to a difference of a hundred and sixty seven million. How does one know and I accept Professor Good's point what the exact amount of that surplus is. There may be in fact a deficit, and yet we still allow the employer to take money out. Now if we're saying you cannot ascertain this surplus, then why is the employer allowed to take money out? Right. B T? Would you like to respond to Jimmy's question? Well we were disappointed in the Good Report because er they did say it was one of the major issues, and yet they said that they didn't think any sweep in changes are needed which rather erm contradicted the earlier part of our report, we would have thought there were erm changes needed. A group of our here is largely actuarial surpluses and one doesn't really know whether there's a surplus things keep changes. The actuaries go to the employer to find out what their plans are. British Steel how you go that answers a really good way of putting it. Thank you very much. Well British Steel adopted a somewhat more subtler tactic er they make a strong point of the fact that no money has ever been removed from the scheme despite the presence of a six hundred surplus. What they did is took half and used it to reduce their contributions and it was a large reduction, it was a reduction from twelve to currently five per cent. Er okay, different words to describe the same and indeed they didn't take out of any fund, but they achieved the same end result. Jimmy? Well if this is the case then you don't see that any recommendations in Goodey would stop that kind of thing happening and if you don't see that, what recommendations would you make to the Committee that Goodey should put any report that would stop that kind of thing happening. Well the fear of boring you because I've said it before, I think that either a Trustee made up of an equal balance of members from the various interested groups which is very difficult to achieve in practice and additionally independent trustees certainly in our case, we believe would have stopped it happening because the movements in the direction it went was clear now that we have the information in front of us to the Trustees, it was quite clear what was gonna happen and nothing was done about it. Now we didn't have a voice, remember we were never even informed before or until two years later after the event that it had happened. There are still British Steel pensioners from the old scheme who genuinely do not know that there exists a new scheme. Do you not believe that with this recommendation where Goodey has said that the regulator has got to give his approval that would stop that? The problem there I would suggest is the timescale between the things happening and it getting to the regulator and being digested. In the present didn't understand the two years, I mean he would have told the regulator. Yes. Erm whereas if there were independent trustees responsible to the regulator and they were properly trained, they would I suggest be able to smell out very quickly any malpractice and would have straight to the regulator, if only to call a stop for someone to have a look at it. nothing recommended with Goodey in that particular cause is of any good. I don't think so. Have erm Imperial? belief is that er if you get the trustee balance right, that's the first place where the decision ought to be made, but there should be a fall-back position which Good has given, which they the trustees could go to the regulator in the case of er not being able to solve things, but are feeling very much on surpluses, that the money is there first of all to pay pensions and until pensions are paid up to Inland Revenue levels, whatever they are, then no money should go back to the company. The question of taking pension holidays in between out of surplus is a sort of mid midway position, but er very definitely we feel strongly that money should not go to the company. We have suffered from the same thing as the other two er Abalance have said today of money being used from our surplus to provide for redundancy and erm i it's been exacerbated by money being available from the people who are made, made redundant, going to the company and swelling their balance sheets, while all the cost side of it comes out of the pension fund and that has caused a lot of ill-feeling particularly from the older pensioners who have seen years of inflation when their pensions were not made up to the same extent. In the old days when there was a possibility of of erm ad hoc payments made, er that sort of thing was taken of, since the takeover of the company, that hasn't happened to the same extent so there's a very strong feeling with the older pay er pensioners that they paid money into a pension scheme which now shows a surplus, but other people are benefiting from it. We need we've got lot's more questions to ask you. Peter? Erm, Mrs Appleby you mentioned briefly earlier the role of the regulator. How do you see the regulator doing his job with a hundred and twenty eight thousand schemes to, to monitor? Great difficulty Erm er well we welcome the erm e er er the proposal that there should be a regulator. Somebody er to whom the erm er er matters could be referred er whom er could remove trustees er who are er not acting in er the best interests er of the fund erm to whom er I understand that the erm beneficiaries could er appeal if they felt that their fund was being erm used i in the wrong way which is something that we haven't got at the moment erm I mean just going very, very briefly back to the question that you asked erm about this how would you stop what's happen happening is by having, we would have thought a pensioner trustee, because even the question has been asked how did it get through the union trustees and the answer is that most of them are employed, and they are looking over their shoulder because jobs are going and redundancies are being made. You've got a pensioner employee er a pensioner trustee on there and they're not looking over their shoulder for their job, they are going to do the job of a trustee and watch the funds, and they would then be able to go to the regulator if they saw something that was amiss. Whereas somebody who is employed by the firm might be very worried about doing because they're more bothered about keeping their job. So th the case you're putting that the that the pensioner trustee er ship is more powerful than you originally put cos until now you've been put it in grounds of i the trust should be repre representative of it Yeah Now you're saying erm rather well, that in fact that person or persons could be more independent Yes. Because they're actually not worried about being sacked Yes. either erm because redundancies are coming up, or Imperial trustees down, they were just got ridden of as a way of moving them off the trust. Yeah, very good. in our case the unions approved our proposals of the company, they raised no objections it was only the who raised objections, the employees didn't and in the High Court case, we've just said, how can an employee be independent when he depends upon his employer for his future work. So, really what you're saying is that if we're looking at trip wires to stop things happening, there's a powerful a really powerful case for a pensioner trustee looking for whistle blowers. Yes. There's also a powerful case for having pensioner trustees there's far less chance of erm people twisting their arm, although they could have the character. and that's where independents come in. But, but, but that's a problem we all face. And we're also saying that if you have a new pensions act, the work of the regulator would be much easier. Why? He won't keep have to be going off to court to find out what is the law at that moment of time. Erm it's an adventure and it gives you a sense of freedom. I don't want to do anything too energetic, I just like erm the sound of the water on the boat, wind in the sails You can be as serious about it as you want to be. It stops you sitting on the beach and just doing nothing all summer. and I've been out of there for three hours and loved every minute of it. You can go from being a total novice to someone who's got a reasonably good idea by the end of one week. When you're on your own you will thrive in it, it's a really good feeling. All these people have discovered a passion for one of the most popular recreational sports, sailing, and as you can see, you can take it up at any age. Now sailing encompasses windsurfing, dinghy sailing and ocean cruising and if you've got millions of pounds to spend you can enter the Fastnet or the Admiral's Cup but whatever level or whatever part of sailing you want to take up, the basic techniques are best learnt in a dinghy or sail boat because it's less expensive and a lot more simple to operate and that's the purpose of this video to learn the most basic techniques as quickly as possible and to be at one with the wind. Now since I take to water like a duck does to orange sauce I enlisted the help of Suzanne here because if there's any fooling in the water to be done I'd rather she did it and not me. That's alright by you, isn't it Suzanne? Well it seems just a little bit unfair but I'm sure I could put up with it. Well we're in the fabulous surroundings of Menorca and as well as being a wonderful holiday resort, it's also recognized by the Royal Yachting Association as a training centre. Now since I've just about learnt the difference between the sharp end and the blunt end of a boat, I've decided to go straight to the top and get some expert advice from the R Y A and who better than the R Y A's national coach John , Hi John. Hi. First of all what exactly is the role of the R Y A? Well the R Y A is Britain's National Authority for the sport of sailing, simple as that, we look after every aspect of sailing and powerboating but our particular role in training is to set the syllabi pre to the courses, to train the instructors and to make sure the standard of teaching in every centre is up to scratch. That beautiful white sail belongs to a Topper, doesn't it? Now why do the R Y A specifically recommend these sail boats? Well we know that a lot of beginners are put off by the complexity of larger boats and one great advantage of the Topper is that it's so quick to raise and easy to sail, so great for beginners. The second point is that the Topper's hull is made of polypropylene which is remarkably tough and resilient. Now that's important for sailing schools dealing with a lot of beginners. It's also important for the first time buyer. Right I'm convinced such a good breed and you very kindly rigged this Topper up for me so well you won't mind if I take it for a spin will you? Just hang on a minute. I know I said it's easy but it's not that easy. Before you go out there are some important safety considerations we should talk about and the first one is personal preparation. I think you're having me on now John. This is the Mediterranean so why am I squeezed into this number? Well in really warm weather a T-shirt and shorts may be enough but as it gets colder so you need to add layers of sweaters, trousers and top the whole thing up with a wind and waterproof spray suit but all that can make you a little clumsy, so the answer for most British sailors is a wetsuit like the ones that you and Suzanne are wearing. But why is mine slightly different to Howard's? You're wearing the summer shorty for greater freedom of movement for your arms and legs but Howard's got the full suit, for more protection in colder weather but they both work on the same principle. When the suit is wet, it traps a thin layer of water between the body and the suit and your body quickly warms that up to a comfortable working temperature but if you fall in when the suit is dry, the cold water can be quite a shock and so a good trick in cold weather is to put the wet suit on in a hot shower and then over the top you wear a spray suit again to keep off the wind and to protect the wetsuit. Right, so exactly what are you wearing? Well if you take this I'll explain. The dry suit is great for winter sailing because you can wear lots of warm layers underneath and the suit keeps them completely dry by means of watertight seals at the wrists and the neck but you mustn't forget about the extremities either. In summer you'll need a sun hat to keep the sun off and in winter don't forget that about a third of body heat is lost through the head so a warm woolly hat is great. Bare feet are asking for trouble and so you need a pair of soft soled shoes which don't slip on the boat. Is wearing one of these suits going to help me stay afloat in the water? No, you should always wear personal buoyancy when going afloat in a small sail boat. For larger boats a life jacket like this one is fine, particularly if you are going further offshore but it's too clumsy to wear in a small sail boat like the Topper and so we prefer the buoyancy aid like this one. So it's probably just as well that I didn't leap off in your boat because er even in this climate I, I could have ended up pretty cold and miserable especially if I'd fallen in. Well the thing is Howard, I don't think you'd have got very far if you hadn't understood how we put the boat together and so I think it's important that we look now into more detail at how to rig the Topper. It seems have done that John's intent on making us a nation of master mariners and under these circumstances, I think I'll adopt the old maritime adage, women and children first, so I'll it back, John can show you how to rig one of these things, alright, come on. Right Suzanne, now we're going to look at the various parts of the Topper and how they fit together. Right. We'll start with the hull Mm. one piece unsinkable, all ready to go in the water. Right. And we've got the files, the rudder and the daggerboard. Right, then I know steer the boat, I'm not quite sure what the daggerboards are for. That slots down into a hole in the middle of the boat but that just stops us drifting sideways. Oh. Then we've got the rig, the mast comes in two parts, the boom, the sail and all the ropes to put them together. And you're gonna show me exactly how it's been fixed together are you? That's next. First of all we slide the top and the bottom of the mast together, lining up the red dots and then we touch the halyard. The end of the halyard goes through the end goes through the end fitting and then we tie a little stopper knot in the end, then we bring the other end of the halyard down and make it up tight on this crease at the bottom of the mast. That holds the two halves of the mast together Yes. while we sleeve it into the sail. Okay Suzanne, keep on feeding it through. Fine, now we're ready to tie the top of the halyard to the top of the sail. There are a few knots that we need to learn when we're sailing. This particular one is called a rail turn and two half hitches it needs to be tight so that it doesn't come undone when we're out there. Okay Suzanne, now you had to slacken off the halyard to let me tie that last knot so if you could tighten it up again that will pull the sail up to the top of the mast. That's fine, now all we've got to do is to tidy up this end of the halyard and tuck it out of the way. You will see that most sailors are tidy around the boat particularly with loose ends of rope, and there is a very good safety reason. If you leave them lying around, then you're liable to trip over them. Fair enough. Now before we step the mast, we need to turn the boat more or less into the wind and that's a good chance for us to start thinking about where the wind's coming from. Where's it coming from today? At the moment it's coming from over there. That's right, so we need to turn the boat round and line it up like this. Right. Let's go. Okay. It is nice, isn't it? Now your next feature of the Topper is this special mast gate. We open it up like that, slide the mast in, slide it shut again, put the toggle in. A little knot here just so there's no risk of it coming out and off we go Right. so that's how it works, open it up and get the mast. You will probably find it easiest to slide the mast in at an angle like this until the collar fits neatly underneath the mast gate. At the moment the sail is only attached down its needed edge but before we can use it, we've got to control it properly and that means to tuck it in the boot the jaws clip on here, the down-haul clips on to the sail and is threaded through the jaws before we make it up on the cleat the position of the boom and hence the sail relative to the wind is controlled by this rope, the mainsheet. The next thing to attach is the kicking strap or boom bang. This is used to control the twist in the sail and to stop the boom riding too high. At this stage you simply clip it on and leave it slack. This other cleat is for adjusting the out-haul, we'll come on to that in a moment. To attach the sail to the boom we have two clips, one simply holds the sail down to the boom, whilst the other one, the out-haul is used to bury the tension on the foot of the sail. The rudder and tiller assembly simply slot on to the back of the boat but the important thing to remember is that the tiller must go underneath the rope force before the rudder is clipped on. Otherwise the mainsheet won't be able to slide over freely. The kick up design at the top of the rudder means that it's particularly easy to fit on the beach. Right, that's it, the boat's ready. So let's go afloat to look at how the basic boat controls work. Okay Suzanne before you go for your first sail there are a few things you need to learn about basic boat controls. The most important control is you, the helms are always set facing the sail. Yeah. And so if you sit just a little bit further forward, that's fine. Now you steer a boat with a tiller here at the back and you always hold that in the hand nearest it. Then if we hold this rope in the other hand and effectively that's our accelerator. That's what pulls in the sail and makes you faster. Now today because it's a little windy we've rolled up some of the sail out of the way to make it easier for you Yeah. and so you could pull it in just until it stops flapping and then you'd be able to sail away and we'd never see you again. So before I let you go, I think you ought to learn how to turn the boat around, we call that tacking. It's quite a complex manoeuvre and so we'll break it down into the different parts that changing hands, turning the boat around and changing sides. Now we'll get the changing hand out of the way first because it's easier that way and so what we do is to bring the rope hand towards the tiller hand and then you can tuck it under your thumb, pick up the tiller with the other hand now, that's fine. Now we initiate the turn by pushing the tiller away and the next thing to do is wait. This takes quite a long time and slowly the boat turns around. When the boom comes over the top of the boat then you can change sides, sit on the new side, straighten up the tiller and you're sailing away again. Oh, that sounds better Well we'll try that once more and then we'll let you go. Okay. So the first thing we do is to change hands, that's good, push, wait change sides, straighten up the tiller, look where you're going that's fine. Great. You're ready to go for your first sail. Oh. Now it's only going to be a short one, just out towards that buoy and when I call you, you can turn round, okay? Okay. Okay come back to me now. Alright let everything go fine you've become a sailor. Now all we've got to do is teach you how to sail. This is our stable starting position crawl on the . The wind is blowing directly across the boat, it's known as the basic two position. The sail is just flapping and there's no drive in it. It's flapping freely. To start sailing we simply pull in the rope that controls the sail that's the mainsheet. Then we can sail off on a reach in either direction just as we saw Suzanne doing. Now let's watch that again. From the basic two position, we pull in the mainsheet, we start sailing away on a reach, the wind is blowing directly across the boat and we accelerate away. Now to start sailing closer towards the wind, we need to pull in the mainsheet, pop the daggerboard down and then turn the boat gently towards the wind, we reach the point where even with the sail sheeted in tightly, the front edge, the luff of the sail is still flapping, that's as close to the wind as we can get and so we maintain a course to keep the sail full. Now we're sailing at about forty five degrees to the wind. We're on the edge of what we call a no go area, if we try to sail any closer to the wind the boat will come upright, the sail will flap and we'll slow down and stop and so the best we can make either side of the no go area is known as a beat. Let's look at that again in practice. Sailing along at forty five degrees to the wind the sail is in tightly and it needs constant adjustment on the tiller to stay on that right course because the wind is never totally steady. Keep a look out for where you are going and watch the luff of the sail. Now we cross to the other side of the no go area but turning is called tacking, and so to make ground for wind width we have to go in a series of zig-zags, each time turning for about ninety degrees and see that the sail is kept full most of the time only flapping momentarily as the boat turns directly through the eye of the wind. Now let's look at the manoeuvre and tacking in more detail, you will remember it's a sequence which involves changing hands, pushing, changing sides and then straightening up again. So the first thing we do is to change hands, then push, wait until the boom comes across and change sides and straighten up. Sailing upwind is hard work so don't waste effort by letting the mainsheet out. Keep the sail driving for as long as you can through the tacks. Now watch this, as we go through the tack the sail is driving for most of the time just flapping briefly as the sail turns through the wind. The whole thing becomes one fluid manoeuvre with power on for the maximum possible time. Change hands, push, wait, change sides, straighten up and off you go. Now what can go wrong? The most common fault is to be stuck halfway through the tack, head to wind, the boat's right in the middle of the no go zone and the sail's flapping. Simply push the tiller away from you, push the boom out and the boat will sail backwards and then pull the tiller, pull the mainsheet and sail off again. If you get stuck remember, push, push, then pull, pull. From the reach let's now look at sailing downwind. The first thing to remember is that as you turn the boat away from the wind, you let out the mainsheet, the sail only works properly at one angle to the wind and so it's essential to let out the mainsheet as you bear away. Sailing away from the wind is known as running and you've got great freedom of choice in the exact course you pick, you can even sail dead downwind. What we need to look at though is how we change course if that means moving the position of the sail across the boat. Here we're sailing downwind and we want to turn left effectively, so that means moving the sail across the boat without changing the course of the boat too much. There, that manoeuvre is known as gybing but really it's as simple as that, sailing downwind you don't have to change course very often, unlike when we're sailing upwind with tacking but we need to show you a few more demonstrations about it in quick succession. Like tacking a manoeuvre consists of a series of related movements, change hands, push, change sides and straighten up again but the difference is in the tiller movement where you move the tiller towards where you were sitting, so let's watch that again, change hands, push the tiller to where you were sitting, watch the boom, as it swings across, straighten up the tiller and settle on the new side. Again, change hands, push the tiller to where you were sitting, watch for the boom, as it swings across, straighten up and sit down on the new side. In stronger winds the manoeuvre becomes a bit more lively and here it's a good idea to twig the mainsheet to help the boom come across. There's lots of power in the sail all the time and so you will have to remain agile. Change hands, push to where you were sitting, crouch in the middle of the boat and straighten up on the new course. Two last points before we leave gybing. Always check the area you are sailing into to allow for the time when you will be facing battlements but when you crouch in the middle of the boat, do keep an eye on the boom or you'll end up with a nasty bump on the head. By the time you've mastered gybing, you can sail in almost any direction and so it's now time to look at the five essentials for sailing well. Sail trips, maximum driving power from your route. Boat balance, keep the hull flat for maximum speed. Before and after trip keep the hull level, don't make waves. Daggerboard position, get the right compromise between drive and drag course wave good, the shortest or fastest distance between two points. Sail trim isn't simply a question of pulling everything in and forgetting about it as the sail works at its maximum at any one angle to the wind. On a beat, that is with the sheet pulled in tightly but as we turn on to a ridge you'll see that we have to ease the sheet out so that the sail stays at the same angle for the wind. Again moving from a reach towards a rung the boat effectively turns underneath the rig and the sail stays at that same angle. Boat balance is simply a question of matching the heeling effect of the wind and the sail with your body weight. As the wind tries to tip the boat over, so you counter that effect by sitting out. The aim is to keep the boat flat at all times so that it glides cleanly over the water. In light weather you either keep the boat upright or heel it very slightly away from the wind so that gravity helps to fill the sail. When the boat has heeled too far it tries to turn up into the wind and a lot of rudder movement is needed to keep it straight. That rudder movement equals braking and so it's slowing you down, it may look impressive being heeled over like this but I'd sail a lot faster if the boat were flat. Let's look at that again, when the boat's heeled over that rudder movement causes a lot of turbulence and that's just slowing you down. For an off trip is much the same, the idea is to keep the boat flat with the bow skimming slowly across the water without too much bow wave and the water leaving the stern very cleanly. Again without too much turbulence. The most common beginner's mistake is to sit too far aft in the boat and that causes a great wrist a tail of to come up from the trunk . A far less common problem but one which is much more dramatic is if you put your weight too far forward. Not only will this make the boat difficult to steer but if you try doing it too far, you'll start sailing straight under water. Now for the daggerboard position. The purpose of the daggerboard is to stop the boat drifting sideways. When we're sailing downwind, the wind is simply pushing the boat forward and there's no sideways force, so we don't need the daggerboard. We could lift it right out but it's easier just to lift it until it's just below the level of the boom, so that it doesn't foul it when we're gybing. When beating the sideways force of the wind is at a maximum and so we need the daggerboard right down to get a good grip on the water and stop the boat drifting sideways. When reaching it's a compromise between those two extremes, halfway up and halfway down. Now to see just how effective a daggerboard is, let's look at these two boats beating. The one on the left raises the daggerboard and immediately starts to sag off away from the wind. He is still trying to sail the same course but the boat is just sliding sideways across the water. Course made good, means sailing where you want to go as effectively as possible. The first thing is to remember is that no daggerboard is completely efficient and so if you try aiming for a goal point, you'll actually end up slightly downwind because the boat would have drifted sideways. The way to overcome this is to sail slightly high of your intended course and you'll end up in the right place. This effect is most pronounced when you're beating. Sailing upwind involves tacking and here you have a wide choice of routes to reach your windward goal point. You could reach it in two tacks or in many more. The route you actually take will be influenced by things like the tide, obstacles like shallow water or other boats and by wind shifts and wind shadows from the land. All other things being equal, the most direct route is the best. Sailing downwind it seems most logical to head straight for your goal point but in fact, particularly in stronger winds, sailing downwind can be slightly uncomfortable. It's better to sail two oblique courses to get down there but this if you choose where to gybe to reach your goal point. Launching with an offshore wind is a straightforward process. First simply lift the boat into the water but don't let go at this point because you'll find that the boat will drift faster than you can swim after it, then you lift the daggerboard here, halfway down because you'll be sailing off wind. Then lower the rudder for control when you're sailing away and gather the tiller and mainsheet in one hand. Step in gently and push the boom out to help the boat turn away from the wind. As the boat picks up speed, so you can settle gently into the boat to gain control. That's it, you're away into deep water and sailing happily. Returning in an offshore wind is slightly more complicated as you have to beat back towards the beach. Look ahead to choose where you want to land and try to judge the depth of water, raising the daggerboard as you come into shallower water. Make allowance for the fact that you'll be drifting sideways more with the daggerboard up but as you come into shallow water then you can raise the rudder and step ashore. Then you can lift the rudder completely, take the daggerboard out and lift, not drag, the boat ashore. Taking it far enough up the beach so that it doesn't blow away again. Launching with an onshore wind demands a positive approach. Walk the boat out until the water is deep enough for you to put the daggerboard down far enough so that you'll be able to sail away. Push the rudder down, prepare everything because if you get it wrong you'll be straight back on the beach again and then climb in and sail away. Choose the tack which takes you most directly offshore and when you're clear, and only then, it's time to worry about the technique by getting the daggerboard the rest of the way down and sailing efficiently. Returning with an onshore wind is potentially the most spectacular of the lot. If you don't do something you'll sail straight up the beach and rip the bottom out of the boat. So as you come in raise the daggerboard, lift the rudder and then when you come into shallow water, turn the boat up towards the wind to lose power for the sail and stop before you hit those rocks. Then as before, step out to the shallow water, lift out the daggerboard, raise the rudder completely and lift the boat ashore. Now we've covered the basic techniques of sailing, the best way of putting them into practice is by sailing round the triangular course and so I've laid out these three marks. We'll start down at the far end of what we call the lured mark and from there you'll have to tack all the way up to this closest one, the windward mark. From there it's a reach out to the far end to the wind mark, drive there and back to the beginning again. Great. We'll try it a few times just to put it all into practice. Okay let's go. That's fine . Okay. Okay Howard, this should be a good test to see how much she's learnt. Over she goes. No she's let out the mainsheet to spill wind and now she's under control again. It's quite a steady tack around the windward mark, now that she's reaching she should have raised the daggerboard a little. Now ready for the gybe. No I don't think she's ready quite yet, she's got a few things to sort out first and that's definitely not right, she wants to raise the daggerboard not lower it, bit of confusion there about which way to turn the tiller but she's round safely, she should be looking where she's going now instead of sorting out all the string. Okay now she's off really quickly on a reach but she's oversheeted, she's got too much power there, she's sheeting the sail in instead of easing it out until it flaps and then just pulling it in a little. Should Suzanne have let the sail out like that? No, by letting the sheet go she lost power. After the tack she'll have to put it all in again to accelerate away. Now sitting out to balance the wind That tack looked Okay. Yes, but she doesn't need that bundle of mainsheet in her hand. For this part of the course she should have the daggerboard right down,and she could be sailing in slightly shallower tacks towards us. Whoops. What happened there? Well she let the boat heel so far before sheeting out that the boom hit the water and wouldn't go any further. She recovered by leaning out more. Suzanne's got a good sense of balance which is always useful when you're sailing Now let's look at this gybe to see if it's any smoother. Oh yes that's much better Wow, she's really taking off now. Yes, the wind is stronger out there. Considering she's only been sailing for a couple of days, she's doing very well. If she were more nervous we'd have reached the Topper. She's still a little unsure on those tacks, she's easing out the mainsheet as she goes round. It's not dangerous but she loses power. At least she's got the daggerboard down there. I see she's sailing more efficiently to windward. Well it looks as if Suzanne is beginning to relax and enjoy it more now. She certainly is, after only a couple of circuits her confidence is growing. She's acting more naturally to the gusts, leaning out and then easing out the sheet. It's all becoming a more natural process. Well how was that? It felt absolutely . You did very very well. Oh thank you very much. Capsize. This is the part of sailing which every beginner dreads. The boat's on its side in the water and you're nowhere to be seen but in fact it's all quite straightforward, neither the boat nor you can sink and it's simply a question of pulling the boat back upright again and carrying on sailing. A deliberate capsize is part of every beginner's course. Once you've tried it you'll lose all its fear for you. This is the easiest way of turning the boat over, to tack without moving. Swim clear of all the ropes, swim around to the back of the boat, pull the daggerboard down and then simply flip the boat upright again. With the Topper, you'll find that there's very little water in the cockpit and so you can start sailing almost immediately. With a little more confidence you barely need to get your feet wet. If the boat capsizes because it's overpowered simply scramble into the high side until you end up standing on the daggerboard. Then lever the hull upright again and clamber back in, it's as simple as that. The worst thing that can happen is for the boat to become totally inverted and here you need to slide the daggerboard quickly out before it drops through the hull. Now the accent is on patience. Just think of the resistance to the sail dragging through the water. You have to pull very slowly and carefully, try to jerk it and you'll bend or possibly break something. Once the rink breaks through the surface everything happens far more quickly, you scramble in and you're ready to sail again. If things go drastically wrong and you're a long way from home and need to call for help the most effective way is with an orange smoke flare. If you see one of these from the shore, phone the coastguard. Even if you're upright you might need to call for assistance. Perhaps you're exhausted where you've had a gear problem. While you're waiting roll the sail up round the mast. That will reduce your rate of drift and avoid the risk of further capsize. So you tie it up neatly out of the way. Then you can signal for help in the approved method, raising and lowering your arms slowly. It may be tiring but keep signalling until you're absolutely certain that somebody has seen you and is on their way. As the rescue boat approaches, prepare to be towed by taking the daggerboard out and get your painter ready to pass to the rescue boat. This is more my kind of sailing, rescuing damsels in distress. Rescue boats are extremely important. Good sailing centres will have at least one and certainly the R Y A ones do and they're important because if beginners get into difficulties out on the water you need to be able to get to them as quickly as possible and it also gives them a sense of security to have one of these things around. Are you alright like that? The get her into shore. So you've shown us all the basic techniques of sailing and more importantly how to get yourself rescued should things get out of hand but apart from the dubious pleasure of capsizing, are there any other ways of getting thoroughly wet? As with any other sport, Howard, the real exhilaration of sailing, comes when you're going faster and that can certainly mean getting wet. In our case the wind is the driving force, so let's now look at strong wind technique. In strong winds we don't want beginners to be overpowered and so we reduce the sail area, that's known as reefing. Okay, so how do you do that on, on this? On a Topper it's very simple. You simply ease off the out-haul, take the kicker off completely and then we rotate the mast, then just wind the sail up. When we've finished we tension the out-haul and put the kitty strap back on. Well that thing's pretty easy if you're doing it on the beach but what if you're out in the water and it suddenly gusts up. Just how easy is it to do that? Well it's always better to reef ashore if you can but if you do get caught out you can reef afloat just the same. I remember the time I was out there struggling in a strong wind, the boat was definitely overpowered. I had to use a lot of rudder to keep sailing on a straight course. If a boat heeled right over it's not good for the boat and it slows you down, it is far better to reef, the technique is just the same afloat as it was ashore. Roll the sail around the mast until it's reduced in area. In these conditions I wanted to get rid of about a third of the original sail area and so that's it, now I'm sailing much more happily instead of struggling against the boat I'm sailing in harmony again. The excess sail is rolled up neatly around the mast out of the way and still I've good a good sail shape. That means I can sail happily upwind or downwind in perfect control the whole time. That's to an expert sailor to reef wasn't it because of course the stronger the wind the more exciting the sailing Absolutely so if we move over from Suzanne's boat over to mine, we'll see some of the fittings which make the boat go faster. Okay? Right so what have we got here? Well this boat's fitted with the race pack which gives it a lot of the extra controls that you'd expect on a larger sail boat. First of all we've got the kicking strap three to one purchase, the down-haul has a three to one purchase, and the out-haul, that's got a four to one purchase. It all sounds a lot more complicated now aren't you just making extra work for yourself? No, in fact it makes life easier. Three to one, four to one, that simply means that it's that much easier to pull everything in. the scale along the boom there, one to ten, what does that mean? Well that's for consistency of sail setting. If you know that for your particular weight and the certain wind strength you want the block next to number four, you keep it like that all the time. You can always go straight through it, it would be right every time? Yes. In your enthusiasm to get afloat in a good breeze, it's easy to forget about getting the right sail shape and the effect can be dreadful. Just look at this, the sail is far too full for the conditions, the foot is billowing out and the luff is horribly wrinkled which has got too much power there, it's a bag of wind. The general rule is if it looks bad, it probably is bad, so let's get it right. First we tension the foot and then the luff until we get a properly shaped aerofoil. Another classic mistake is to forget to tighten the kitten strap for boom bang. When you're beating it doesn't matter because the boom is held down by the mainsheet. If you don't tension the boom bang when you're sailing off wind, the boom will just lift, the sail roll twist and you'll get bags of uncontrollable power. The way to tighten it is when you're on a beat, just pull it in as the tension is taken by the mainsheet. What are so special about these racing birds of a ? The other thing we've got is a ratchet block on the mainsheets. What does that mean? I'll tell you. Hear that noise? Aha. That's a ratchet locking the sheets, so all the load is taken by the block and I'm just holding it. That means that you can sail for longer. Strong winds without getting tired, so it's a lot more fun. It's also pretty wet but with the ratchet block taking the strain out of controlling the sail I can concentrate on technique and having fun and respond to the gusts by sheeting in or sheeting out if I'm overpowered and moving bodyweight in or out to suit the . Even with the boat sailing flat a certain amount of spray goes aboard, so get the bailer down to drain the cockpit. The daggerboard is raised slightly from the same position in lighter winds because the boat's sailing faster. If the wind drops a bit then you can sit inboard more to keep the boat flat. This is what sailing is really all about. It's not a struggle, you're harnessing the elements and having fun. Sailing upwind works the boat over the waves gently. Well it really looks as if you're having a lot of fun out there, John, but you are an expert. Now I'm sure that screaming along with fifteen knot in a force six is really exciting but for a landlubber like myself it's certainly not on. As I suspect it's not for many of the people here. Well sailing is what you want it to be. For some of us it's pitting our strength against the elements, for others it's pitting our wits against other people by going racing and yet other people seek adventure by exploring new sailing areas and the beauty of a small sail boat like the Topper is that you can do all of these. In tidal waters like the Channel Islands, you must find out what the tides are doing. That means looking up the tide tables to see the times of high and low water and the tidal stream list to find the maximum rates. In tide free waters like the Mediterranean we don't have the same problem but we still need to consult a chart to find out a suitable location for sailing. That may be affected by the prevailing wind and we'll have to find a suitable launching site. Well this is a beautiful boat. Presumably we can just go and load, rig up and away we go, can we? Well, almost, in this particular bay it's fine, we know it's a public beach, we've checked on the map. It's a different matter if you're sailing inland because most inland water is owned by somebody. What about the er winds here? Well here we've got an onshore wind, that's perfect, because we know that if we get into trouble just get blown back ashore. It's different if the wind's offshore because then it can be deceptively close into the shore and further out bigger waves and if you get into trouble you're lost out to sea. Right well we're all set. Fancy a sail round here Suzanne? I think it sounds pretty good fun, I think we should go for it. Right Let's go. Let's go. Fun? doesn't actually seem to be a lot up there, are you sure we've brought everything? Yes, that's the beauty of the Topper, we've got the sail in the bowels of the boot and everything else is on the roof. In fact when I keep my Topper at home over the winter, they just lift the whole thing up into the roof of the garage, keeps it right out of the way. So all we've got to do now is to untie everything and go sailing. Now that you've learnt to sail on your own, the next step is to sail with other people. That probably means buy a boat and joining a club. If you are of a competitive nature, most clubs provide the opportunity for you to start racing and there's no faster way into a pretty good technique than by sailing against more experienced people. If you have no intention of racing, every sailing club offers a safer and supervised area to continue your sailing. Having learnt to sail in a sail boat like the Topper you can move on to more complex boats with confidence or continue to exploit the versatility and convenience of this single-hander which has become the best selling sail boat in Britain the one design nature of the Topper, due to its injection moulded hull, is perfect for racing and secondhand values remain high. Like every other lively class the Topper has an owners' association which organizes rallies, open meetings, national and international championships. I'm beginning to realize why perfectly sane people pitch themselves at the mercy of the elements miles from the security of terra firma,has provided the perfect resort for our first events of the . Thanks to the excellent facilities here at Menorca sailing. Thanks also to the R Y A and particularly to John . The R Y A beginner's course has certainly got Suzanne here sailing with confidence in no time at all. It certainly has. Well you look as if you're raring to go and show us what you can do, so I'll give you a push up and away you go. Bye couple of decades there has been an unparalleled interest in the occult and astrology and Satanism, and witchcraft and society at large, on the one hand it worships at the shrine of science and technology and then it turns and pays its cash, and it does pay its cash , and its homage at the signs of the zodiac, and at the other various things dealing wi or are a part of the occult. Almost every newspaper, national newspaper and local free papers, will have er their horoscopes, television and radio chat shows, again, will have their their resident astrologers telephone call lines to find out what the stars have in store for you, an unprecedented interest in the, in the various branches of the occult. Some, few years ago, we were told that we were entering the age of Aquarius. Now this was, really, rather a low-key introduction to a whole new way of life that at the moment is sweeping through the United States and is on our doorstep. Not just a religious movement, but something that involves and enmeshes every area of life, from high national, and international politics, right the way down to the very colour of the, of the latest fashions, the new age movement and sometime in the future we're gonna lo , talk a little bit about that. But there's this, this involvement wi with with occult. Now, it's not then that society doesn't believe in the supernatural, we believe in the supernatural, society at large believes in the supernatural, the tragedy is that the natural man, the natural person however, as always is more willing to believe Satan's mysteries than he is to believe God's mysteries. Our priorities get turned inside out, they get inverted. Scientists contend that the principles of natural law that govern our universe cannot be turned aside, you cannot ignore them, they are fixed, they are great things that, that you cannot alter God cannot do anything about them. And so, when you come to the bible and you read the account of Jesus here on the earth, turning the water into wine, of Jesus stilling the storm, when you into the old testament and you read accounts there of the children of Israel, of the me , of the tremendous miracles that were performed by Jehovah, God for them well of course, there's a natural explanation to it, because you can't do these things, there are natural laws that stop you doing them you cannot take a glass of water, even if you're God, you cannot take it and make it into a glass of wine instantly, it's got natural processes to go through. And of course, when Jesus came and he healed the people and he spoke words of, of deliverance to those who are demon oppressed and he spoke words of that brought help to those who are blind and so on , there is of course , er, to the natural mind, a very natural explanation, it can all be explained away because you cannot do these things! And yet, the same science and the same technology that contends of the inviability of the natural laws, the same time is able to set it, one law against it, another itself, and he can do what he wants. These same men use one set of laws to cancel the effects of another, for example, the application of the law of aerodynamics, enables them to cancel the effect of the law of gravity, that's why you can go up in an aeroplane. Man can do it, but God is not allowed to do it, he can't do it! Well, let's look for a few moments this morning at one such incident when Jesus did do it and it's in er, Mark chapter four, I want to read a few verses from there, Mark chapter four. I'm gonna read from verse thirty five, just the paragraph there, the last paragraph in that chapter it says on that day when evening had come Jesus said to them let us go over to the other side and leaving the multitude they took him along with them just as he was in the boat and other boats were with them. And there arose a fierce gale of wind and the waves were breaking over the boat so much that the boat was already filling up and he himself was in the stern asleep on the cushion. And they awoke him and said to him, teacher do you not care that we are perishing? And being aroused, he rebuked the wind and said to the sea hush! Be still. The wind died down and it became perfectly calm. And he said to them why are you so timid? How is it that you have no faith? And they became very much afraid and said to one another who then is this, that even the wind and the sea obey him ? Jesus had been, with his disciples and he had spent the whole day in teaching and preaching to the people, he'd been explaining to them what the kingdom of God was like, he'd been telling them some of the parables that perhaps we're familiar with, he'd been telling them about the parable of the sewer and the seed, the man who went out and he sewed his seed and different things went wrong birds came and picked up the stuff that fell by the wayside, some fell on stony ground and it couldn't put down any roots, some fell amongst thorns and they were quickly choked, but some did fall in good prepared soil and that grew. And so Jesus had been teaching the people. And at the end of the day he's tired, he's physically weary, and he says let's get away for a while let's go over to the other side. Now, it's im , that's an important little phrase there what Jesus says, let's go to the other side. He wasn't going for a joy trip, he wasn't going out in the boat just to se to while away an hour or so to relax and to unwind, he wasn't going there to, just to get away from the crowd of people that had been following him and had been listening to him, he had a purpose in going in into the boat, to go to the other side. We're not gonna be looking at it this morning, but it's quite simple if you were to read on down, the reason why is because on the other side there is a man there who is possessed of a whole legion of demons who desperately needs deliverance and Jesus is going over there to bring healing, to bring deliverance to this man. But it's important, for what we're going to be thinking of this morning to re , keep that little phrase in mind that Jesus said to them let us go over to the other side, there was purpose in going into that boat. And we see in this account, this incident in the life of Jesus, that Jesus is able to bring peace. There in the midst of turmoil, in the midst of, of unrest, in the midst of anxiety and fear, in the, in the midst of perplexity these disciples not knowing what to do, where to turn, Jesus Christ is able to bring peace. And the good news, the message of the gospel is that Jesus Christ is still able to do that. Into your life, into my life, he is able to bring peace. Whether we know him or not whether we've never had any dealings with him in the past or not, he is able to bring peace once we allow him to come in and to take control of the situation. But even if we've known him for many years, if we're committed Christians, if we've been followers of Jesus, there are occasions, there are times in our life when there is turmoil and there is unrest and if we allow him to se , to take control he is able to bring peace. So th let's look then back at this illustration for a moment, this incident, Jesus then gets er a few of his disciples and they go out, in the boat, and there are others who follow him, they get into their boats quite likely, quite possibly that many of the others would have been followers of Jesus, some of his other disciples, it's unlikely in these very small little er lakeside fishing boats that many of disciples would have got in, there might have been four or five of them that would have been about the lot and so the others would have got into some of the other boats which were nearby and, and others are the people that had been listening to Jesus, they too get into boats, and they pull out following him, wanting to hear if he's got anything more to say, wanting to witness anything else that he's gonna do, they wanna be there to see and to hear what Jesus has to say and is going to do. And whilst they're sailing across this little lake there in the evening a sudden storm blows up, now in the version of the bible that I'm reading from it says there that, er that is was a fierce storm , other versions will er, give different e , different expressions, it was a fierce, sorry, a fierce gale of wind. Er, some some translations will put it tha that, that a, that a great storm blew up, but he word that is originally used there is the wi i , conveys the idea that this is no ordinary storm, this is just a, a sudden squall that has blown and in a, in a short while will blow itself out again, but it's a strong word that's used here, a word that would, that would denote a whirlwind or a tempest, something above and beyond the ordinary course of events that these disciples, many of them experience fisherman, would have known and been able to cope without any problem. So whilst they're sailing across, everything is calm, everything is peaceful, and suddenly there arose this fierce gale, this this tempest! So much so that the waves were crashing over the boat, and the boat was filling up with water. And these disciples and Jesus, some of them seasoned, experienced fishermen, they'd been fishermen all their lives, their fathers had been fishermen before them and they were frightened! They had never experienced anything like this before. And we find that life is not all plain sailing. Life is not just sailing through on a mill pond with sort of red sails in the sunset and that idyllic picture, life is not like that. But life has its storms, it has its tempests, and some of them are a lot fiercer than others. Fearful storms sometimes come along our way and we we wonder what is happening to us and we feel that we're being thrown around and tossed about from side to side, there seems no way out! There's seems to be no possible escape. And you have to start questioning. And that's just what these disciples did, they started questioning, what's he doing there? We're working here. We're gonna die! And there is Jesus asleep. Well we don't perhaps quite use that sort of language, but we start saying, well where is God in all this? If there is a God of love why doesn't he see my situation? If there is a God of love, a God who cares then why doesn't he do something about it? Why doesn't help me? Why doesn't make a way of escape for me? Where is this God of love when I'm going through this situation? Now that's a question that we can all come up with at times, whether we're Christians or non-Christians, we come up and we question, where is God in this situation? Why doesn't he do something about it? If he is there, if there is a God, can he not do something? Why can't he help me? As I said, life is not all plain sailing, there are troubles, there are storms and some of them are very fierce and some of them would cause us to, to wonder if there is an escape. Now that doesn't matter whether we're Christians or not Christians, that is the course of life, that happens to every one of us. Becoming a Christian is not the solution and the answer and the th the grand elixir , it solves all of life's problems, it takes away all the difficulties. Jesus Christ never ever made that claim, in fact he said, before you follow me, count the cost. Weigh up what it will cost you to commit your life to me. It's not an escape route from all your troubles and all your problems, it's not an escape route from all the difficulties and all the unpleasant things in life, it's not a pathway of ease and of, of in , of un paralleled bliss and enjoyment day after day. The sun will not always shine on you. Jesus said before you follow me, count the cost. Weigh it all up. But don't be a fair weather man. Don't be a fair weather follower . And when the difficulty gets going, gets hard you turn back, he says don't do that. But before you start, count the cost. He said that a man who's gonna build a, build something, let's put it in a modern setting, the man who's gonna, a man and woman, a couple are gonna put an extension on their house, they don't just go down and buy a few dozen bricks, er, and a bag cement and start, they work out how much it's gonna cost them first of all. You see, they might have enough for that first barrel load of bricks, and the first bag of cement and sand but perhaps the money will run out shortly after that? And they've got is just a, perhaps a a, a few courses of brickwork. They might even get half the wall up, but that's as far as their capital goes. He says no, he says any man wanting to build an extension on his house, he's gonna sit down and gonna count the cost of it. He's gonna see how much it's gonna cost him in pounds and pence. He's then gonna look at his bank account and see if he can afford it or not. And he'll only start the job if he can afford it, that's if he's a wise man. And Jesus says so count the cost of following me. Now Jesus wasn't saying this to stop people following him. Not at all! He wanted them to follow him. But he did not want them to follow him under any false delusion. He didn't want them to follow him thinking that he was just a free ride, a free ticket for all their problems a and difficulties. As the bible says, in the world you have you will have persecution, you will have difficulties, you will have problems. There are the problems of life which are common to every one of us, whether they're Christian or not Christian, whether we believe in God or not, there are problems and difficulties and, and situations that are, they're the common lot of humanity. We all know suffering, we all know grief, we all know bereavement. But Jesus says, weigh up the costs, balance the account. And so we've said life is it's gonna bring us problems, it's gonna bring us storms, it's tempests, and some of them are gonna be very, very fierce! But you know, for the person who does not know Jesus Christ as their saviour, for the person who has never committed their life to God listen to what God says for that person. He says, the wicked are like the tossing sea, and you know, as far the bible is concerned, the wicked is not necessarily the man or the woman who does terrible deeds, the wicked is not necessarily who is, who is a murderer, or a child molesterer , or a thief or or or a wife beater or something like that, the wicked is the person who rejects God, who turns their back on God, who says thank you, I can go through my life without, I don't need you, I don't even believe you exist, and even if I do believe you exist I'm gonna do things my way, I'm gonna go through life as I choose. And God says the wicked are like the tossing sea, for it cannot be quiet, and it's waters toss up refuse and mud. There is no peace says my God for the wicked. That's the word of God through Isaiah the prophet. There is no peace for the wicked. For the person who rejects and spurns God. Who, wants to go through life by themself. , doesn't mean to say that all the kind of life is one big storm, not at all! David the psalmist, he could see the wicked, and he said why do they prosper? Why do I have a hard time, and there's the Godless person prospering? He said but David only saw the surface. And you know, the surface is not all i , you look out on the sea, and it looks like the proverbial mill pond, it's calm, it's barely a ripple of water but it's not still. I remember many years ago, we had friends who had a fishing boat, er herring drifter, and in Fraserburgh the there's a young lad going out with them for a night's fishing and it was a beautiful summer's night! And the sea was, it was as calm as the mill pond. I've never been as sea sick in all my life! Because you see that surface water,it was only surface water , because when that boat was drifting there was an awful lot of movement. It was, it was going from side to side. It was going up and down. There was a lot of movement under those first few inches of surface water. And that's the picture that, God through Isaiah uses. And this particular it, it maybe all nice and calm on the surface, but underneath there is a whole maelstrom of, of of agitation. That's what it says, it brings up the mud and the refuse. That comes from the se , the seabed churning it up but the sea is never still, it's tossing and in, as the movement there underneath, although it may appear calm on the surface, but there are times when it's not calm on the surface, it's as rough on top as it is underneath. Most of you won't remember the time, and I certainly don't, some of you will, you'll be familiar with the er, healing accounts, seeing pictures on, er either in magazines or on the television news, in in old news reels, of that time when Neville Chamberlain stepped out of an aeroplane, and he's just been to Germany and, and had a meeting with Hitler. He comes back with a little piece of paper in his hand waving it, peace in our time. The scrap of paper, and you know the,th the result of that, and you know the conclusion of it all. The whole world in, in a matter of months is engulfed in the, in the horrors of the second world war! Oh it looked good on the surface but underneath it was dark and peaceful. And your life can be like that. It looks alright on the surface, you're not going through a hassle at the moment, and our memories are short, fortunately and once we come into a calm patch the hassles of yesterday are quickly forgotten. We were just enjoying the calm and the peace of today. But underneath there are those hassles, and those, those agitations. And Jesus, he meant to come and bring peace. They say peace, it doesn't just go on the top two inches of the surface water, it goes right to the very depths of your life and keeps . One occasion Jesus said, my peace, to his disciples shortly before he left, my peace I leave with you. I don't give, what the world gives, I do it . I don't give something I haven't got, I don't give something I've no right to give, I'm not giving you something just for , I'm giving you my peace. And there was never a time when the life of Jesus is not shaping us. You go through all sorts of situations and circumstances but there is a peace and an equilibrium it wasn't just on the surface, it was right to the very depths of his being the whole being. But you say, but I am a Christian, I've experienced God's peace, I've accepted Jesus Christ as my saviour. I love the Lord! I seek to serve him! But there are still those raging storms that come. There are still those tempests that hit my life and would not be around, and would almost swamp me! Well there is a difference you see, there is a difference. And the big difference for these disciples, was that they were not alone. Though you're going through the storm but Jesus is in the boat with you. There is the difference for the person who has put their trust in God who has committed their life to Christ and they will go and you and I will go through those storms, and through those tempests, and be knocked around and be, almost swamped by them but the thing is we are not alone Jesus Christ, he is in the boat of your life with you. He says, I will never leave you. I will never forsake you. Let me come into the book of Hebrews and those words he uses are actually, to be underlined and emphasized. Cos in the literary, I will never, never leave you! I will never, never forsake you! He promises that which is I will lead you till the end of the age. And Jesus was there with them. And that made all the difference for them. And they turn to him, and he speaks a word that brings deliverance. And he gets up and sees the situation and remember, he said, Jesus wasn't out for joy ride, he wasn't just passing an evening relaxing and unwinding and resting away from the crowd, he had gone into the boat for a purpose, he was going to the other side, and no storm was gonna stop him getting there! There was a man there who desperately needed deliverance! He was possessed with a whole legion of demons! He was, he was,th they they took him, they chained him up, and they let him loose in the local cemetery, and left him there. You can imagine the population of th , of a nearby town, every now and again they would come down and perhaps throw some food over in this man's direction a loaf of bread, a, a a a a a a, a hunk of meat or, some other food every now and again so he would keep alive. But he ranted and raged and rampaged through the local cemetery. So they tied him with chains but the demonic powers were so great in his life that he snapped them like new cords. Here was a man who desperately needed Jesus! And Jesus was going across to the other side to look for this man. And no storm was gonna stop him. And the disciples didn't know that of course. They were just concerned for themselves. We're gonna per perish! We're gonna die! So Jesus when he sees their situation, he's not concerned by the storm by the way, he's not put out by that because he knows he's going to the other side, but for the sake of them he gets up and he speaks the word, Jesus he said, peace. Be still. be muzzled! Silence ! He speaks that word of command and the wind ceases, it really is howling. The seas calm. And the disciples are happy once again. And Jesus asked them a question, he says to them, why are you so timid? How is it that you have no faith? And J B Phillips in his paraphrase he puts that last question like this, what has happened to your faith? You see, it wasn't that they had no faith, they had faith we were saying the other week when we were dealing with this, we all have faith it's what we do with it. They had faith, their faith was in themselves and in bailing out, and they couldn't bail quick enough, and so their faith was not realizing anything it wasn't producing the goods. They had had faith, they had seen Jesus perform miracles, they had seen him heal the sick, they had seen him give sight to the blind, they had seen some of the tremendous things that Jesus had done. They'd been there at the wedding, when the wine, that water had been turned into wine. They had, they had witnessed him casting out demons, they had heard his teaching, they were familiar with Jesus, they had every reason to be, to have faith in him, he says, what has happened to your faith? And very soon they were , he said a moment ago they had taken it from Jesus, they were no longer trusting in him, and they started to trust in themselves in their own ability. You see, as long as things were happening their faith was riding high. As long as the miracles were flowing, as long as the sight er er was given to the blind people, as long as the lame were walking, as long as th the lepers were being cleansed, they had faith ten feet tall! Well when you see things like that happening you can afford to have faith ten feet tall! It's not difficult to believe! And yes certainly, you and I can be like that. When everything is going fine for us, and God is in quote, blessing us, when our life is flowing smoothly, it's easy then to have faith, it's easy then to trust, but do you know, those disciples in that boat, they were no safer after Jesus stilled the storm than beforehand. Their safety had not increased one little bit granted, they were more comfortable and granted, they were enjoying themselves more, they felt better, but they were no safer. During the past two or three generations there have been, there has been this, this idea of God's favour being expressed in blessing. Very often, we'd link that blessing with material things, the physical things, the healing, the prosperity you know God's blesses us just because I'm sick, he heals me. I can't find that in God's word. It's not there. That is not an evidence of his blessing. You see if that's how we're to judge blessing then what are we to say to people, to men like C T Stard who sacrificed an inheritance that in today's value, just in the early part of this century, but in today's value be worth millions of pounds to go to the Congo, and to China, and to India? In later le li years leaving his wife behind him cos she was unable to go, and going to serve his God therein, where is the blessing in that if this is how we take God's blessing? Or what are we gonna say to men like Hudson Taylor there in China buried his wife, and buried his daughter, and son. And Judson in Burma burying his whole family within a few short years of getting there. Men like Jim Elliott who in seek of the taking of good news of the gospel to the Indians becomes, as a young man, a martyr. To men like Teddy Hobson who in his whole life serving the the of the Congolese ends up as a martyr. He was cannibalized. Where is God's blessing in that? If we equate God's blessing with the nice things that happen to us then they were not blessed! And they've given far more than but you or I will ever contemplate doing for God! And yet, is that blessing? Is that what it really means? Is that what the bible means by being blessed by God? Let me read you two or three verses the bible has to say about blessing, first of all, the verse in the book of Proverbs Proverbs chapter ten, verse twenty two. It sets the scene perhaps for it said it is the blessing of the Lord that makes rich and he adds no sorrow to it . And we read that and we start thinking of richness in the terms of pounds and pence and material possessions. Of course, it's nothing to do with that. But as Jesus said, a man's life does not consist in the, in the abundance of the things he possesses, that's not how you gauge your person's richness. It's not how many stocks and shares they've got, it's not what the size of their balance is, how much they've got on deposit account, how much credit, how credit worthy they are, that is not the richness of a man or a woman. Here the wise man says, the blessing of God, it makes a person rich and it does not bring sorrow with it. It's a strange verse. Put it to the back of your mind a moment please. As I turn in to the book of Genesis I read there of God coming to Abraham, and saying to Abraham,that Abraham in your family all the nations of the world are gonna be blessed ! How is that blessing gonna come? It comes through the Messiah. It blessed the for Abraham, the Messiah. Jesus. Because we become middle class? Because we've become better off? Of course not! We are blessed in him because he gave his life for us. That is the source of God's blessing. Not in getting, but rather in giving. The apostle Paul when he's writing to the Corinthians in his first letter to them, one Corinthians . Well what is this? What's the definition? I suppose if I come around and ask each one of us this morning, can you give a definition? I'm writing a dictionary and I'm stuck on a word, I want the definition of blessing. And I suppose for every person here, there would be a I would say a similar, but a different er definition. There'd be a lot of similarity to it, and I think if we're honest a lot of it would come back to things. Well let's see what God himself has to say cos he gives us a definition of blessing. Gives it to us in psalm a hundred and thirty three and it's in the last verse. He is talking about God people being in unity. And he says, as a result of them being in unity, dwelling together in unity, he says it is there that the Lord commanded the blessing. Whatever that is! And it gives the blessing for what it is. Life forever. That is God's blessing! That is God's blessing to you. That is God's blessing on me. It's not, how I prosper financially. It's not, whether I'm in good health. It's not whether,a , whether I've all my little itty-bitty prayers answered. God's blessing to me is life forever. That's his blessing to you. It's not making a list. It's not giving you total health, and free you from all sickness and diseases. It's not answering all your prayers. It's not making your life easy. It is giving you life forever! That is the blessing! That is his big parcel he's given to you. It's wrapped up in a . , thanks be unto God for his unspeakable gift! The gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Those disciples, they had the storm stilled for them and it got easier sailing. It was plain sailing then to the other side. They were more comfortable, it was a, it was a more enjoyable journey, and let's be honest if I can go through life without hassles and without problems my life will be more enjoyable, of course it and these difficulties, and these storms coming away, coming your way your life will be more enjoyable. But like the disciples, it will not be any better, or any safer. Their safety did not depend on the storm being still. Their security and safety depended on Jesus being with them. That was it! Your safety, and your security and my safety and security in life does not depend on how pleasant my ways are and how pleasant my paths are how much I manage to amass, and how I can overcome all the little difficulties and problems and steer clear of the big ones the security and safety of my life, now and in eternity,security is there in the boat and lying with him. See, the real peace is not the stilling of the storm the real peace is that the assurance of who is going to stop it. That's the promise to your eternal life. I will never leave you. You don't understand the circumstances, you don't understand the storm I might , I might not leave that to me he says I will be with you. I will never leave you. I will never forsake you even to the end of the . Well let's see Come in. Hello. Oh. Now then. What's the trouble today? Oh. The whole family I'm afraid but er Out of the way. Out of the way. Sit over there by the . That stomach of hers is causing her er diarrhoea and sickness right. and erm she's had it for a couple of days but we thought she was getting over it this morning. Basically she's been giving her Diarralite And now she's I mean she's She can't even keep water down Doctor so she's certainly not gonna keep that down. Right. Cos she's had it since Wednesday. What the Doctor. Hello. hello? the Doctor. Has your dad not been She's well either? No. But I recover quickly that's all. I've had it bad. I've got out me bed to come up here. Mm. Right. Let's have a look at your tummy to see what you've poor old tummy. She's very erm fractious. I think she's . You're alright darling. When er just before she's sick It's pains in her stomach. She's I mean obviously er erm I mean she's com complaining of a sore tummy. She's able to but But she's not had the diarrhoea and I have. Oh no. Thank goodness. Well I didn't get diarrhoea with it I just got sickness. She's gonna get the diarrhoea. Really? Yeah. She's sore round here. She screams when she's sick. Mm. I know the feeling. Mm. She's . yeah but she's, she's going to, she's gonna have diarrhoea because you can feel Mm. I think that's what wrong. She's not been. and nothing, nothing coming through. Right. Oh. Er she can't keep the Diarralite down? She's not keeping anything down. Right. Mm. She's what a year and a half now? She's just under two Doctor. She's just t coming up two . How long's this gonna last? This? Not much longer. Now do you have any er ice lollies? No. Any ice-cream? Yeah we have. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Teaspoonful of ice-cream and just p have you any, anything that y you can dip it in? Yeah. And just dip it in and let her suck it. Don't let her take any great amount of it. Just a little with her tongue. Mhm. Just to give her stomach something to work on Mhm. Yeah. without overloading it cos Mm. if you overload it, you'll get it all back. Mm. Yeah. A small amount table jelly ice-cream, ice lolly. Anything like that . Anything like that. Mhm. Yeah. Anything you can break up, and just give Aye. her a very small amount. Same with yourself. Just a very very small amount. Just take it just let it melt in your mouth. You don't, don't need to take i enough to have a mouthful or anything. Mhm. Just a, don't go buying Lucozade, don't go buying Mm. anything like that. Mm. Cos it won't make any difference. There's nothing in there that there isn't in straight lemonade. Yeah. Mhm. Right. Er every now and again a wee sugar cube. Open her mouth and just let her suck it. Give her a bit of energy. Yeah. Build up her strength. Build up her strength. But just anything cold anything goes down very easily. Aha. Just take it they don't have any problem with it. Yeah. a small teaspoonful of this stuff Yeah. just in the corner of her mouth. Don't force it down, just in the corner of her mouth. She'll swallow that down nice and gently and it'll coat her tummy and it will gradually work its way through into the bowel and quieten them down as well. Is this the medicine you're giving her? Yes. Yes. Ju as long as you don't overload her. This is Aha. this is the one thing that her system can't stand. It's when they retch er That's right. They try to empty what it is in their stomach and it Right. just comes out. That's what I was doing last night. Yeah. Well just out to the shop and get some ice-cream or make a table jelly when you go home. Mhm. And just have a little of it every half hour? Every hour? If you feel like it. Aha. It doesn't matter what the flavour is whether it's strawberry, orange anything. Okay. Er quite a good thing is this er sorbet stuff. Yeah. Mhm. It's nice is that. It has a tang, so that youngsters particularly, quite, quite like the taste of it because they don't taste anything all their taste buds Mm. if you look at her tongue. Pure white. Mm. Her taste buds are all covered. Can't taste anything. Yeah. But if you can get them with just a, an orange or a lemon sorbet. Just a wee drop of that instead of the ice-cream Mhm. they can taste it. Mhm. Yeah. She hasn't been eating and that's unusual No. for her. No. Aye. No. They they they don't . this, this, this bug we've got it's causing the pains? Yes. Oh aye. Gives, gives her the cramps all the way across here. Yeah. All the way across here. That's it. Yeah. Mhm. that's why there's two or three minutes and then sick. Aye. That's what I had last Or we have diarrhoea. night. Yeah. Yeah. Aye. We either have, we either have sickness or we have diarrhoea or . I had both. Yeah.. Well I'm, I'm the only one actually. I've had both. Yeah. Aye. We maybe jus just haven't got it severe cos you've just had that operation . I've just come out of hospital. What have you been doing? I had a prolapse bad. So the retching was worrying me a bit. Well Cos I've still got stitches. You get started on, on the ice-cream and the I was just coming up to Scotland for a holiday . I'm not coming here any more. What with the weather and this I'm going home again. I'll tell you the weather down south is just as bad. I know. We left it didn't we? Right. And I was listening to the radio when I was out in the car this morning and it's coming down Same over it's just coming across the country isn't it? It is. If she gets any worse Doctor? No she won't. No. No problem. You think it's this bug? No problem. Yeah. Aye. And if you give her, just stick her to small amounts for the next couple of days Yeah. and Okay. Yeah. Don't, don't force her that's the big secret Yeah. because if you force them at all,it doesn't work . Thanks very much Doctor. There's that. Right. Thank you very much. You'd best carry her then Pete. No problem. Thank you. Bye bye. Bye bye. Bye bye. she's Bye. Thanks a lot. Okay. Bye. Bye now. Number twenty two You er you need to tell the assembly thank you. one one four nine Moderator is it possible or legal at all to insert a completely new twenty two? Simply in light of the the vote that we've just been held? I'd like simply to ask the assembly to simply reaffirm that we are indeed a christian church, a christian trinitarian church to father son and holy ghost, the gods whom we adore why do we sing this every time if there are a number of members in this assembly who are no longer able to completely agree with such a sentiment Moderator? I move that the Mr Mr I think it's implicit in our own nature and in our own character and a known fact that we are constituted here as a general assembly and we indeed ascribe to that and I don't think we need to affirm it on a lower level of what is in fact the very standard of our existence here er in a general assembly. I can assure you of that. Number twenty two approved. Number twenty three thank you Yes Bishop please come forward. I'm delighted to welcome you I'm sure you'll be at home with one accord being sung on Sunday night. one two eight nine. I have arrived, I have been given a number by the Church of Scotland I might suggest that you too have arrived, I have answered your roll call. And indeed it's a sign of the times that I speak not with a mitre metaphorically upon my head but perhaps the glengarry of the convenorship of the Central Council of ACTS and therefore I am in part your servant here. And it really is to to promote a couple of the initiatives of your instrument that I stand here. First of all I would like to bring to your attention the regional ecumenical teams. At every stage of the interchurch process we were hearing voices saying to us it is not sufficient that there should be fellowship, agreement, companionship, cooperation at the highest levels but it had to be found at every level, it had to be found at grass roots level. And the meeting of the ACTS' Central Council has recently had a report from its local and regional unity er committee proposing that a network of regional ecumenical teams should be established throughout Scotland to further the cooperation and joint commitment of congregations and church members in each area. This proposal was enthusiastically approved by the Central Council of ACTS and has been well received by member churches which are appointing local representatives for each of the forty six areas. These areas as you might recognize, are the presbytery areas of Scotland as these areas seem to be most closely allied to natural and civic boundaries. Now the Presbyterian Church as the Church of Scotland enjoys a unique place in Scottish life and its structures it has a privileged place but I would suggest to you it has also therefore a number of responsibilities and one, I would suggest in this case, is to try and ensure that these local regional teams are in place. I think it would be most appropriate for the local representatives of the Church of Scotland, since the areas are presbyteries, to take the initiative or to give that encouragement without which these local teams will not find a place. The second thing that I would like to recommend to you on behalf of the instrument ACTS is the Scottish christian gathering which will take place this year from Friday the twenty sixth of June to Sunday the twenty eighth of June at Saint Andrew's College . It is according to the book, which is our sort of bible on the matter, for celebration and vision, for fellowship, exploration and discernment of opportunities and tasks with broad participation from all member churches and others to amplify and strengthen the whole movement of ACTS. You will notice it is a yellow card also er it is somewhat larger than the other one which was flaunted earlier before us and the good news is that you've got, each one of you, a copy of this in your cubbyholes. Could I just conclude Moderator by saying that those who are engaged in ACTS the churches which are participating members of this action of churches together in Scotland are engaged in a journey together. The imaginations of each church and indeed s of the several members perhaps shape differently the goal that lies ahead. But we must be sure that, however shaped in our imagination that goal is, it must be inspired by our lord's own will for his church praying that his disciples would be one as he and the father are one. And it seems to me that that oneness, that that unity is pneumatic in character. It is based on the holy spirit. And it is for us surely to open ourselves without prejudice to the shape that it will take in the future. I think we can say that if it is pneumatic in character, the shape will be organic. For the moment we move forward believing that we are going in a direction to which we have already been prompted, and in the confidence that the holy spirit is working among us. Thank you. I'm delighted Bishop you took the opportunity to so address us and it underlines our benefit in being able to have our delegates participate in our debates and discussions. Thank you for your contribution. I put to the assembly deliverance number twenty three approved. Deliverance number twenty four thank you. three three five. I am s one that has just been recently appointed to one of these er regional ecumenical teams and at a meeting that was held for the three presbytery areas in the sort of west coast of Scotland, around the Greenoch area, erm it was, it became apparent that all these people who are being appointed er through their, their churches are in the main clergy and the convenor of the local committee himself a ruling elder of the Church of Scotland expressed concern about this, that there is no real er and I would just put it to the, to the assembly, there is there is no need for these members to be members of the clergy, in fact it would be good if presbyteries remembered when making a nomination eh that it, er it needn't be, it could be a, a an elder or indeed er a lay person holding no particular office within the church. That would sustain what eh Bishop has just referred to, the grass roots of, of this movement. Twenty four approved then? Thank you. Twenty five local involvement number twenty six twenty seven yes? Reverend eleven twenty six. I've read number twenty seven says draw attention to the possibilities for church members to take part in overseas and exchange visits and I would simply like to do that. Yesterday a minister from an urban priority area er while er welcoming the thought of a an urban priority area fund or urban and rural priority area fund, said that people were at least as important as money in many situations. None of us can doubt the economic plight of many of the countries where our mission partners work but the relationship of people is every bit as important and visits play a large part in that. A small group er from my own parish went to India two and a half years ago to visit our missionary partner. She had visited us many times over a nu number of years and said it was our turn to visit her and we just laughed. Us go to Darjeeling? But eventually she persuaded us she meant it and we went and it was an invaluable experience meeting not only our missionary partner but the people among whom she lives and and works and has done for many years. The warmth of the welcome from the girls in the school hostel would have gladdened anyone's heart. They were not well off and they didn't welcome us because we had brought gifts they simply welcomed us because we had had the interest to go and see them and talk to them. We enjoyed their music and shared their worship and we came back changed and enriched and I commend number twenty seven to everyone's attention. Thank you Moderator. Number twenty seven approved? Thank you. Number twenty eight approved. I've got a new number, twenty nine, and you'll find that on the pale blue papers page number sixty five the first notice of I put number twenty nine to the general assembly is that approved? Number thirty approved. Number thirty one approved the deliverance as a whole and as amended, approved. Now before we move further I'd like to take this opportunity of expressing on your behalf our thanks to Hugh here for the service that he's rendered our church to this point in time but particularly as the convenor of the Board of World Mission and Unity. Hugh you've been minister of the parish of Inverleith here in Edinburgh for the past seventeen years, and I understand you were one of the very first vice convenors of the Board when it was set up eight years ago having already served the church on the former Interchurch Relations Committee. You were born in India on the mission field and through your family's experience and your own you've brought to the convenorship of the Board a great personal interest in the overseas church and in international affairs. For several years here in Edinburgh you have been the presbytery's World Mission and Unity convenor and then you became the convenor of the Board's local involvement committee which links our congregations to people who work overseas in churches there with whom they serve. As the convenor of the Board since nineteen eighty eight you have visited the European work of the Board in Rotterdam, in Paris, in Budapest and in Prague also in Israel and Egypt and you have represented the Board at meetings of the World Alliance of Reformed Churches . Hugh you have shown throughout all of your work a deep concern for the people working abroad for our partner churches and for our ecumenical relations and the need to keep these matters to the fore of the church and also of our country. Hugh you and I share the gift of a very unusual christian name. I understand it's the only way in which these letters are arranged in the anglosaxon language and is often used as an example of such. It's a very difficult name at times to live up to I'm sure because the word Hugh literally means mind or soul and it is important that we seek indeed to live up to what our names mean. You have certainly applied your mind to the work of the Board and you have encouraged its vision and its direction through your intellectual gifts and perceptions and insights. And you've also brought your soul to bear on the work of the Board and the work of the church. Within the assembly council I personally valued your contributions the very courteous and thoughtful way in which you presented these and the courage with which you expressed at times the stand that you had to take for the interest of the Board. And yet above that and beyond that what you were seeking to do was not just to serve the Board of World Mission and Unity, it was to serve what you believed was the good and right for the church of god which you have sought to serve and to support and to take further. For that contribution, and for that depth of spirituality within yourself which you have brought to bear for the benefit of the work of this Board and for that of our whole church, we want to thank you very much indeed this morning. I'm delighted and I'm sure you'll be delighted to hear the advice of the business convenor that we suspend at this point in time. And we, we recons we, we, we we come back to continue our meeting at two o'clock this afternoon. We adjourn until two o'clock. She's been dead four years. Oh! It was, it was bad that she used to those draws that bad that after so long you'd see him go all white and then you'd gradually see round the crutch then so, more Yeah but Right! I And then all of a sudden after so long you saw a new Alf. Mm. But, you never there's never a pair of underpants. You might see a pair of long johns, then long johns, and a pair of socks, but Paul said they've opened windows and Trevor said it's nearly knocked him off the ladder. He said to Paul, you've done, cos, I think first time he painted it, Paul, he had to paint it wi windows shut, they wouldn't open window. No? No. So I said to Paul, well you've done well getting windows open. And even nets are down. But ah, I've gone in and opened it, it stinks. Urgh! Urgh! Well how do people live like that? I mean bloody erm, Axminster carpets all the way through. Well it was fitted out Well who buys that, Social? No. They bought it all cash. When, when, when they bought that house they paid cash for it. Oh I thought in there. No! Oh! They sold a farm. Oh! And, bought it cash and it were show house. But Yeah. they bought all curtains and carpet, and carpet and I don't think it's altered. It's same in here, right through the room and all the way to the up the stairs, and it's all Axminster. All curtains are er Anderson. Very nice. Mm mm. And wallpaper , oh she's papered every, painted and papered every room in there. And I were laughing weren't I? Social Services or somebody to do with or somewhere contacted him and asked him to do it but they paid all cash. Mm mm! And they did every room cos his er sister used to work in Homebase be it rich and very, very rich, she's Yeah. back part time now I think my mum Is she? said. And what did they call her? Now she's alright. Now she, she picked the paper. Used to live down the back of us. But she's moved. She She picked all the paper. But they pa he painted, he papered every room . Really? Mm mm. I mean, they've just had a new double glazed back door put on. And that, but then one morning I we But it doesn't look, it doesn't look double glazed does it? No. One morning I was off up Bambury Lane and John was waiting to catch Paul to come some trust or, I don't know whether it's social or what, bought a detached house on Bambury Lane cos there were an uproar. Cos Mick started all this up there. And it was done through a trust then, and it was done so quietly that they hadn't time to object. Mm. And mentally handicapped live in this house. Well they do object. But they've turned this four, five bedroomed detached house, you know, it's got a ramp now up to the front door, the front door's been altered so Mm mm. so we made each what was the dining room they've made into a bedroom, but just don't that he, cos you could see them doing it. Mm mm. And all that. In fact, Tony 's brother, Freddie, he's there but Johnny was still outside working and he was filthy! Bet if I took his jacket off and put it in that washer it'd of fallen to bits cos it was that mucky. Urgh! Oh I thought he was like that. Arnie was playing football. They've gone football match at club. So that'll be another pile of bloody washing! Yeah. I've got all mine out to dry . Take them upstairs. Not that I normally carry Hey! Have they mentioned anything about Easter eggs? Say if they haven't. Mhm. What? About a month or, well a fortnight ago. When I rang up to say I were coming I asked them did they want Easter eggs or did they want fa er a box of chocolates or bars of chocolate we Ah! I know. That's it. Yeah. or do they want money or er You mean you've got to take it Spend too much money on them. done with . I mean, he went to Worcester yesterday but he hadn't got enough clothes. Mm. He took twelve pound fifty. I mean he'd ha he had a pack up but they had to have money to buy ra Postcards. in case they went in this museum. It was to compare a seaside town with a market town or summat. And . You've got that going down there haven't you? Yeah. Thought you had ! Why? Because that's about broad Yorkshire. Even if I try to change the tone of my voice. Malcolm's got a . I shouldn't think so. I think my wants in my bag. Compare a seaside town, then they'll look at the Roman . Urgh! Don't put in Yvonne's. I can can slag everybody off now can't I? Yeah I think they said You can, cos nobody knows what you're saying anyway. erm I think they said to me bar of I'll say bars of Judy, if it's any different I'll let you know. Mm. Is there any chocolate they don't like? Do they like not like it with nuts in or like that? They like Whispas. They like er Cadbury's Whole Nut. Because if my mother ever buys me a bar I'll to stop it. Yeah? Mm. And yet Arthur was a the other way on. They don't like Mars Bars. Well Andrew doesn't. He gets sick on Mars Bars. What else do they like? I know they like biscuits. E Aero. Secret. Well No I tried well th they're horrible! I tried one. Ooh! Have you tried the new Pyramint? Yeah. For my I know birthday. Now Well yeah, but yeah but the new not the triangle it's a bar. Oh is it? Mm. But you buy a bar. Well it'll taste the same won't it? No it don't. Don't it? You know, the Pyramint that you bought in the little box with Mm. like a cream inside? Mm mm. Well the Pyramint bars are like a truffle. Oh! Peppermint truffle. Yeah. Quite sickly. You only get four pieces for thirty P. Ooh! But you've had enough. Yeah. I have some chocolate though. I'm on a diet again. This year I went to and Oh! You've been. I bet Yeah. it's brilliant. Eva came. Yeah. Eva rung up Thursday morning, mum wanted her hair permed before he, when Eva rung up Thursday morning, could she do it Thursday night? So I said, yeah. So when I came in from collecting my answer monies and what have you, erm Eva said new restaurant for you to try Doreen. What? She says, Ali Carver, she said they'd been to that last Saturday night with a couple from and she said they paid fifteen pound just them Mm. and that was, starter, main course, pudding, coffee, lot. Only fifteen. There was erm Well we had a what, we had what they call the banquet which was fifteen pound a head. Well, she said that they The set, the set meal Oh it might have been eight pounds. Hang on. it might have been eight pound qui Judy, but she said that they had fifteen The banquet isn't shown on here. That Was it good then? Food wise it put Paul's place to shame. That's not surprising though. Oh yeah. That's not bad though. For three, thirty six pounds. It's twelve pound a head. Yeah. Various. King prawn, mushrooms, That one works out at, what is it? Ele eleven pound Eleven. there and that's thirteen Thirteen. but, after that they're all twelve pound a head. But we had the erm banquet which was fifteen pound a head, and that included your sweet and everything. Whereas those don't include a sweet. No, including that. Oh it were beautiful! What just you and Malcolm? It's a, no! There were ten of us. Mal and Steve and Alan and Joyce and and Gloria and oh, I can't even say the name and Keith and Anne. Ah! Thirty one . We were saying Mike that er Eva said it had taken them nearly a month to get booked up. For a Saturday night. Sylvia had rung up me about booking for a meal and I thought, originally they talked about going a Friday night, and they said, Friday and Saturday are fully booked for the next five weeks. Eva said it had taken to wait a month to get in for a Saturday night. For a Thursday night we could book almost straight away. During the week you can get in Well that's it, market day int it? Yeah. Yeah I noticed that. well they can do then. Yeah. We had er various er, is it won ton? Won tons like little pancakes? They're like little parcels. Ah! Cos at Paul's With prawn in. place, er whe when Margaret and I went we had I think them and they came had this little pancakes were dishes of er there was a dish of the sauce that Mm. you put on and then Yeah. there were dishes of chopped up spring onion and all like that and you put your own mixture int middle and then rolled it up. Ah! But they're won tons. No this,thi this was But same. this was like little parcels Oh. of I don't know Crispy won ton. Yeah. And it was real crisp and it had prawn in it. Prawns and something in th maybe th prawn toasts with sesame seed. Prawn toast with sesame seed. Yeah. Yeah. Er that's what Was that nice? Mm mm! It were beautiful! I wonder what The ribs are? then we had the halibut in prawn something, halibut in black bean sauce and that was superb! Expensive though the I was gonna say I don't know whether I like halibut. Cos that's chunky int it? Is it, halibut? Oh it was beautiful! I mean I am but I mean I like fish er But Paul pork and prawn. But er e oh it was beautiful! And we had That must be er quite good wasn't it? There was no sweet and sour. But there again None at all there? Yeah, but on the what we had Ah! we didn't get a sweet and sour. Er er er trying to think what was the one we had? One was quite hot and spicy but I'd forgotten what we had for the first two the two that they brought out. We had crispy duck and lemon chicken, that's nice. Er erm prawns and vegetables beef in black bean sauce Mm mm. I've never tried that. Oh it's Haven't tried the black bean sauce beautiful! A Alan at erm pub used to like, he always got summat with black bean sauce. Oh it's He used to like that. beautiful! Do they do takeaway? No. Ah heck! No they don't do any takeaways. Eh! Our Arthur, Arthur sat there and this girl come to clear the pots away and she's been round lots of tables, you know, collecting the cups up together and she comes in and she goes ooh! She says, it smells. That's very nice ! And I looked at her and I thought you can't say that! And Alan looked at her and then she looked, she goes, oh I meant, she says, you smile nice. He said, don't get close . Yeah. Ooh! You smell. We're off er well York this funny thing I got to see that it all goes through for my dad. And he hasn't got all that stuff now. And er Mhm. on Tuesday I said, eh, chance to go out Tuesday night. Only down for last darts match. And erm Thought you were finished? The men's. With the . Oh! Anyway, playing at home. Well we've gotta buy next week so Judy said if you come last night. By heck! Riff-raff are coming down next Wednesday. Well get off, we won't bloody come! She's saying I don't think we want to go out. Cos they were playing Newtons Thursday night and she said they'll have to write home for nine men so Newtons int gonna stand a chance. Well at moment, we're lying second. But we've gotta next week where Newton who are top and can't be beat have gorrit. Mm mm. But chip shop behind us, but club on Thursday nights, they beat chip shop six three. We won Thursday night six three. I've gone right off on the individuals. Can't finish. No I can't. I played Ellen I'm hopeless. We won I played with Ellen in pairs we won five one Wednesday and it was me that lost . I played with Ellen in pairs. Ellen had played Monday night, her individuals down at open then she played who's what? I said to her I didn't even know you were playing. Anyway, she's got through to finals individuals has Ellen. And I'm playing with her in erm and I got sixty one, sixty and I got a, a twenty six. I mean everybody can get a twenty six! When you're going for a sixty. And if I go Twenty six. for a sixty I'm, I get, I end up getting er seven. Two fives and a one. Oh we always play that one was fi that one was what you call a sixty when you get . I, I, I also on the five, the er I ended up leaving Ellen . What's to bloody finish she said? So she went, eleven. Done a fifteen. Anyway, she did it. I said, well I've got to give you the funny finishes for when you come to your finals. It's practise. Yeah. She said that was good thinking. So er as I say, we won six for eight, so so erm they're gonna play our next time. So we're still hoping it int the bottom, bottom playing all the chip shop there. And all Yeah. . Er er I'll want this conversation I know. We're having a conversation though. You got plenty of tapes. So far the bleeding . No because my I've got erm a letter don't know whether it was Friday or Saturday now, on from Tamgrams. Have you heard of Tamgrams? And it was about Tampax . In in you know, internal Mm mm. sanitary sort of, asking you what you use what size ha you know, how comfortable did you feel with them, you know, did you wear one at night? Did you wear a pad? Did you wear a pad when you were er heavy? Is there anybody else in the family, you know, a daughter, sister Mm mm. all that. So I put Lianne's name down and what she used for her age. Anyway, it said er you will receive free samples soon and then er er incentive bonus. So I thought well, I'll fill it in and send it back. And I thought well, even if it was a voucher for pads or owt, I mean, they'll come in for either Lianne Mm. or me she said. Oh but I said, oh owt for nowt nowadays Lianne. So that'll be stood here looking at my jacket, it wants washing, and Andrew's does, and our Lianne's does . Seems a bit silly washing mine and Andrew's today don't it? And when er . Have to get a mo a move on and, oh I must ask her Well my, my, my line's just about full of jumpers. I must see Daphne today. Well I've, I've seen her today but she said she'd er get me some socks and that out for, out for Lianne. She gave me those on Monday. Actually I thought they were quite nice, but Gillian er made I Ian erm ring the short up cos she thought the legs weren't long enough. So, she tried it on her and that and I said it's fine. But I she'd had to lend Ian some money the week before last so so he could do their pocket money. He hadn't any money so he had to borrow it off Gillian. Mm mm. Well they'll not be as that. bad we could all live in four-bedroomed detached houses can't you? Mm. We well, well, you know, today what was the point of having a four bedroom? For show? Mm. You know, you don't go from a, a one-up two-down to a two-bedroomed bung semi-bungalow and then shoot to a four-bedroomed detached. And then your own commonsense tells you it's gonna cost you more doesn't it? Yeah. So anyhow, money's that, he, cos he said summat on the Monday night. Yeah I want money for Andrew's trainers. Oh I'll see you next week about that. He thinks I'm going halves with him, if he do, well he's got another shock. He has. Mm. And if he turns round and says owt, I'll say, Ian if weren't for me your kids would be naked. I just bought Alan a new pair of jeans. Sixteen pound out of club. Cos I thought needs a pair of decent jeans. I bought them both a denim shirt. Alright, out of club, but it will get paid for. Ah but see you've still got to pay for it haven't you? What? My denim shirt? I ordered Andrew one, Andrew has been after one for a long time. And I ordered him one. I thought I'll get Lianne one and hers came first. Mm. And then I , oh I always have to have . I said, actually, I'd ordered his first I said, but I thought I'd treat you. I mean, she's got it on this morning, open with a Benetton Yeah. T-shirt underneath and it suits her. Cos she's got her black jeans on. And black and black and then the denim shirt. Yeah. Cos he said to her oh your shirt's nice Lianne. Cos she had it on last week. And she said, my mother brought me it. And I thought, I'm just going to wait and see what he says, and I'll say well they'll be walking round naked cos he's not bought them a pair of socks, pants, T-shirt jumper, nowt. Mm mm, mm. Mm. Cos our Lianne said to me on Thursday mother I'm only going away for week. Cos I'd got her a tube of toothpaste. I thought I ain't buying her a pump toothpaste cos all the others will you know, if they see a pump toothpaste Mm. I thought, right, I'll get her a tube of toothpaste. And I got her two strips of Elastaplast. I thought, well if she's not used to walking boots Yeah. They might rub her. er they might rub her. So I thought well if she's got plasters Yeah. she's covered. And er I said, yeah but you know, you don't start spending your own money Mm. on such things as plasters and what have you. She has to be in Beverley for eight o'clock. Monday mo Monday morning. Monday? First thing, first thing. Mm. And come back about nine o'clock the Saturday night. I said I'll pick you up . Luckily, it is the weekend the car'll be home Yeah. so I'd have to get by car. But I was gonna go through Beverley to police station and not to we turn left at traffic lights now it it's moved. Mm. It's where Co-op. Int it? You know where th Oh I don't know. you know where the Co-op is? No. As you go down er er Well somebody said to me, when I get to traffic lights instead of turning right and going through the bar I turn left and go, as if I'm off up to North Cross. Up to North Cross? as if I'm off, up posh end. Er up the house. Whe where are you coming in? From . They'll wait Oh. and I'll go Alan's way you see. Yeah. And how do you hit Beverley then? Do you go down Westwood? Yeah. Oh. You have to turn left at traffic Yeah. lights and you tur Yeah. about Go three quarters of a You go mile off them, and up Yeah. there on the And it's on your left hand side. on your left hand side. And you got the flat and All you're doing is taping normal conversations. Yeah but you don't know what our normal conversation is do you? Ha Well Nah I couldn't let all my secrets out. They say you've got . Oh yeah! Oh ooh! Ooh! Ooh! Any Well any cups left? Oh. Why's that? You making me a coffee? Well I might. I made you a drink last night duck. I know. I made you a drink today and all. Extra dinner's on there. Ooh! Ooh!? Yeah. I better have the dishwasher going. Won't have anything to drink out of. Can I have the paper back please? Ah. Oh yeah. I've got to go shopping. Looks like I'm gonna have to go on my own. Mandy's Why have you got to go shopping? Oh yeah. She goes walking doesn't she? He said summat yesterday about taking an hour off. Mm. But then er he works late last night and he had to go in again this morning. Yeah. He's always Yeah. Aha! Nah, I bet he hasn't been working. He's been up early this morning. Paul has? Yes. Didn't wanna get out of bed. I didn't . Oh yeah. Well she'd look after him wouldn't she? She'd find him things. Yeah. Aunty Norma? Eh? Aunty Nora? Aunty Norma. Shall I go up to her in the pub on Sunday I'll say, hey Aunty Nora? She'd . I know she would. She'd say, that I've set you up to say it. Why Aunty Nora? What are you having with your chops mum today? Morning. Morning. Morning Sir. There are some licensing applications George. Is there? Application er question number fifty three please your honour please. Send that to all at the Crosskeys at, the Chester your worships. So that at all? I am. Licensee of the Crosskeys at the Chester. That's right, yeah. And you're making applications for an occasional license for Saturday the twenty ninth of October to run the bar at Nell Gwyn village hall on behalf of the the village hall committee is that right? No, that's the way it is, yes. The hours you're asking for is seven thirty pm to eleven forty five pm? That's right. I think you did send this is intending it to be a postal application Mr ? I did, yes. But er, your worships to do it by your colleagues until today because er Mr indicate on the application form that er he will not be in fact, operating the bar himself but it would be somebody else. In fact they, your colleagues wanted more information about Yeah that's a Who will be operating bar Mr ? Well I'm I'm on er Mr Martin . Actually I did operations between the village hall and the Crosskeys and Mr Martin is on the pub for the last sixteen years you see. Well that concerns this this gentleman to extend the licensing. Oh yes sir, definitely. I'll I'll be going to the village hall but I me I have to The Crosskeys that's why I put Martin , perhaps I've put the wrong thing on you see. I'll be in charge of the bar actually. So physically you will be exercising something degree of supervision in the Oh that, yes! Will you be there when it's time to close Mr ? I will, yes. You see there in particular to young people. You are aware of that? Oh yes, that, that's why ! Then this application be granted. Right, thank you very much. Thank you. Er Thank you, thank you very much. Application number fifty four your worships, the a temporary authority in respect of Quick Save Supermarket. . Jacqueline is the applicant your worship. Are you representing ? Right. Could you take the oath please? Hold the bible up in your right hand and read the words from that card. I swear by almighty God that the evidence I shall give is shall be truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Okay. Now full name and address could you? Jacqueline ,. And er, what is your date of birth? Thirteenth of the twelfth, sixty four. And you're making application for temporary authority to operate the licensed premises known as Quick Save Supermarket That's right. at er Station Road,Wetherall is that right? That's right, yes. Is the outgoing licensee present? Pardon? Is the outgoing licensee present? No. Why? Don't know. Not had a You don't know? Well, somebody's handed these documents in, have these come with you today? Yeah. The present license holder is Susan . That's right. Right. Sir, there is a letter simply saying er she consents to the er, application, but there's no indication to why she's not here. Is that lady now at that Qui Quick Save? Yes. She's at work for the company too? Well What's your normal there? Supervisor. In this depot in Wetherall That's right. Are you there permanently? All Yeah. day every day? Yes. The premises ? Yes. What er, experience have you got in er the sale of intoxicating liquors Miss ? Well I worked for the past two year really Where, at the ? I used to work in Oldham and then then I come over here. . So how long have you been at these particular premises? Er about a month ago. Mr Mr . Well no she says, she said er she said it is responsibility . Cos she's just given up her her er any er,possibly? And er Miss do you intend to apply for the transfer of this license? Yeah. Has an application been submitted for that purpose? Yes. To the, which transfer Oh! Er to er I'm not so sure this applicant knows very much about what's going on here anyway your worship! Do you see what I mean, see most of this has been done for the convenience of the Quick Save Supermarkets on that er, I should say. Mm. Well, practical purposes at this stage sir she maintains insufficient I've no doubt the licensee will want to know a lot more about the situation, it's very apparent it's not long ago that they last ta transferred to their present holding. You are aware Miss that any persons working in that department have got to be of age? Yes. Can you undertake that that will apply? Yes. And you aware of the restrictions on drink for young people? Yeah. And the sort of concern about that? Yes. And we're going to grant this protection order which is temporary permission to keep the premises open and I must tell you that there will be a lot more investigation before the order is granted that the transfer is specialist. And we're ordering that the other person, if possible, attends at that . If she's not in the district then it'll be difficult. And if it is possible, if she is in the district we order that she attends the transfer sessions the outgoing licensee. Fifty eight. Have you got the license er Miss ? No it's . Well, but it will not be effective until er, you have produced that license to this court. Erm, I assume it that this er, if the licensee has left those premises wi she's physically left has she there? Yeah. Er, when did she go? About a month ago now . She left the company then did Mm. she? I see, well I would of expected those premises not to be selling intoxicating liquor sir, they've obviously not had a license for a month! That will also be er considered by the licensing committee at the next hearing! You must produce that license otherwise it's not effective er, Miss ! See, as licensee you have responsibilities! It's all very well the company telling you as employee what to do it's yo , you're the one who's going to be in difficulties if you don't comply with the licensing laws! Your whole application's not been very satisfactory Miss ! And the fact that the license is not in puts you in in in difficulty! We are aware now that you're operating without a license and it's up to you to get that license here as quickly as possible! Right . Okay. To do with application as number forty four your worships, please. It's in respect of erm temporary authority for the your worship. Your worship please I'd like to make to application on behalf of Mr for a protection order in respect of Vigitalle Er, Mr Mr , Mr . Your full name is James ? Yes sir. And you have resided for the last six months at the and at er ? Yes. And are you this morning applying for a protection in respect of the Vigitalle Yes. Er, would you, would you tell the, your worships what experience you've had in the licensed trade. Er, yes sir my current position er, at the moment I'm at the licensed house trainee manager for Boddingtons Brewery and I've held that position for five and half years. Er previously I've had, held the license of Three Fishes at Lyddon er, for three years er, previous to that I held the license of the Mason's Arms, with for three years previous to that and before I've been connected with the catering and licensed trade from be fifteen. And you're there for quali qualified rather than just the licensed trade would that be ? I hope so, yes sir. And are you applying to, but,ar are you proposing to apply for the permanent transfer of this license? Yes sir. Thank you. Er, Mrs please. Mrs , your full is Margaret ? Yes. And are you the current licensee? I am, yes. And do you support the consentants application this morning? I do, yes. That is the application your worship. Thank you. A protection order be granted? Your worship please. Right . Er, application . Yes, ? Yes. But But er . Excuse the long . Page fifty seven please your worship, Robert James , he is in the cells your worship sorry! So it will take a moment for him to be bought up. There are apparently further charges to be put to him your worship the charge of theft and we charge him with handling stolen property. He's only charged with one offence of criminal deception at the moment. Right.. Fifty five sir, fifty six. Are you Robert James ? Yes sir. And what is your home address Mr ? . Is your date of birth the fourth of September nineteen fifty four? That's correct. Are represented by a solicitor today? Should be. Was it Mr ? I have given the you have all the documents in front of you. Well I think Mr got represented on a previous occasion that's why I'm asking you that! Well I don't know sir. My solicitor's in Birmingham! My, my records sir that Mr was the duty solicitor on that day. Oh! I think he's represented you on more than one occasion . But don't he know that his solicitor's gotta be here for the today? I haven't a clue what's happening! I didn't know, I mean I could of spoken to . Well you're the defendant, one would of thought yo yo yo know what'll happen to you! I haven't . As, as far as I know I have a committal today. That's right. But I would of thought that your solicitor was to be here to represent you. As far as I'm aware my solicitor has been in contact with Burnley prosecution to have the case transferred to Birmingham Crown Court. Well he has been a bit if you tried there. Did you recognise the chap? I'm afraid sir, I have no knowledge, I haven't certainly myself spoken to anybody with regard to that, I would of thought the normal procedure would be for him to be committed to Preston Crown Court and for the Crown Courts thereafter to sort out the final venue. I certainly have no knowledge of of any contact with regard to the ultimate venue and nothing has been marked on my file. Your worships, legal aid was granted er on the thirteenth of September to affirm of burglary. Well obviously they're not here your worship. Well all I can suggest is the case is adjourned for the week we'll just have to arrange a solicitor to be here. I wish for the committal to go along please sir? I've been stuck up in this place In that case of the day sir because the statements have to read out in full. He doesn't want to be represented is that what you're saying? What I'm saying sir is to save the inconvenience to the court is that if I could have my committal cos I don't wanna be stuck up in this part of the country! I have a Crown Court appearance in Birmingham and as far as I'm aware my solicitors have been in contact with the prosecution in this part of the country to explain the procedure and as far as I'm aware the committal this morning was to be committed to Birmingham Crown Court with other offenses. Well you've heard the senior prosecutor say that she knows nothing, she Well I don't, I wouldn't have said I don't know sir. Oh! I mean, that case then can I take my my committal to Preston Crown Court, and when I go to Birmingham If you're committed to trial in this court you will be committed to Preston. Well I'll take it If now then sir. if it is to be arranged and that you're dealt with at another court Crown Court will have to arrange that. Well in that case sir can you get the committee then please? As of now. As I say sir we put this matter down till later in the day, the defendant wi will not appear to be represented therefore the committal will have to be dealt with by re reading out all the statements. It can't be done simply ! Then we'll probably put this case back till later in the day. Do you see that Mr ? Because you're not represented Well I don't know what the situation is! Well I'm te , that's what I'm trying to tell you! You'll have to . But because you're not represented the statements will have to be read out! Which will er take quite some time and er will and certainly will if you're reading to the court which was something you were concerned about. I'm not . I don't know whether you can help that man with that. Because Mr has represented him, Mr said before that he he thought it was as duty solicitor that he, he has represented him at some stage as duty solicitor but, he is represented under legal aid though this defendant by a firm of solicitors in Birmingham and he's anxious to be committed for trial today. If he was represented we could do it er, on the section six two. Otherwise Are there any solicitors present today? Not at present, but he doesn't know . Oh I see. He's given certain information to the court which isn't correct anyway! Have a word with him. It might help everybody concerned if you could have a word with . Yes. We'll have a word with . Could you deal with cases fifty five and fifty six your worship? Shaun David , Mr represents him. Are you Shaun David ? Yes. What's your date of birth Mr ? Twenty fourth of the seventh sixty seven. What is your address Mr ? . Well you're charged with two offenses, the first of which is that at Clitheroe on the twenty sixth of August nineteen eighty eight without lawful excuse you damaged two stained glass windows a picture frame glass and twelve glasses of varying descriptions belonging to Whitbread Breweries intending to damage that property and the being reckless as to whether that property would be damaged contrary to section one of the criminal damage act in nineteen seventy one. I understand this value, value has been mentioned on a previous occasion, I think three hundred and ninety five pounds? Yes it is. Yeah. To that charge Shaun David do you plead guilty or not guilty? Worships if I may interrupt the the this erm dispute about the damage which was allegedly caused I have mentioned it to Miss this morning and she has undertaken to make further enquiries. Erm briefly, the situation is that it's alleged that he broke two stained glass door panels and Mr denies that he broke the second of the two, the one at the front door he says was broken at some time earlier on the evening on which he was involved. Unfortunately Miss hasn't been able to conclude her enquiries er, to apportion the damage and to take instructions as to the the residue of what I've just said. It is suggested er, by both myself and er my colleague that the matter should be adjourned for one week. Well it, it was adjourned last week for him to with instructions your worship. Yes we we've adjourned this case for one week other enquiries can be made. So he doesn't have to, on conditional bail today? Well bail will be extended for one week. Well you know what that means Mr , you were told this last week you will be to surrender yourself to bail next Tuesday at er . Hopefully the matter will proceed next week. Can we go your worships? Yes, you can leave the court. Case number one your worships please Peter John . Are you Peter John ? That's right. What's your date of birth? Nineteen of the first sixty three. What's your home address Mr ? . You are charged with an offence which is contrary to section six of the road traffic act in nineteen seventy two in Wallby on the ninth of September drove a motor vehicle on the A six seven one Wallby by pass having consumed alcohol in such a quantity that the proportion of it, in your breath exceeded the prescribed limit. Do you understand? Do you plead guilty or not guilty? Guilty. Have you got your driving license with you Mr ? I haven't got it actually, no. Why? Because, well I told the police at the time that er I've misplaced it and er my is. What are you doing about getting er, a replacement? Well I haven't done anything at the moment because I di I didn't think it was worth it actually. Well, it says on the bottom of the, your copy of the charge sheet, production of driving license you must produce it, failure to produce it will mean that it is automatically suspended and it also means you've committed yet another offence by not having a driving licence here to produce Mr ! Well I wa I wasn't sure whether to, whether it would go through in time for the case and that's why I haven't What's stopping you? send off for it. I wasn't sure what the situation was . Unless the prosecutor is in the fortunate position of having a computer printout of your driving er le , holding your licence record the case won't be able to proceed today anyway. And your worship, regrettably there is no printout of the driving licence. Well the case can't go ahead today without your driving licence. Sorry? The case cannot go ahead without your driving licence. How many weeks do you want to ? Your worship, I would anticipate that it normally takes at least three weeks for a printout for the computer to be able to And this case is adjourned for three weeks in order that a computer printout will can be obtained. Does that mean I don't have to apply for another licence? No, but er ee i , I suggest you don't apply for the licence now. No, you've left it too late! But er I would urge you to try to find your driving licence because No, I I I don't think I'll be able to because . Right, well you know you're going to be disqualified eventually for this offence if you're convicted. Yes. What, the offence the drink driving offence? Yes. Yeah. Do you understand? I realise that. You've pleaded guilty to the charge anyhow, it's a fair cop! The point is that when you are disqualified you're not just disqualified from driving you are disqualified from holding or obtaining any driving licence. So if you've got one at home you're committing an offence by being in possession of it. Do you understand? Do you understand that? Yeah. Right. Do I No when you're disqualified. But don't apply for a driving licence in the meantime. Yeah okay alright. But er you'll be in a far safer position if you actually produce your licence on the twenty fifth of October. Right. Can I go sir? Yes, you can leave the court room. Er, so yours is better Mrs . Er number twenty one sir, the January . Sorry twenty one? Yes sir. your worships, John Graham please, twenty one. Now, are you John Graham ? John Geoffrey . John? Geoffrey . Thank you. With a G? Yes. What's your date of birth Mr ? Twenty ninth of the eleventh sixty nine. What's your home address? You're stood up for a number of offenses, the first of which is that on the twenty first of June nineteen eighty eight you, on the public road way in Accrington Road Worley used the mechanics of the vehicle when there was an excise licence in force, it's an offence of the vehicles excise act in nineteen seventy one. Do you understand? Yes. Do you plead guilty or not guilty? Guilty. Also that you be the driver of the motor car having been required to produce your driving licence for examination to the police officer, failed to do so. To that, do you plead guilty or not guilty? Guilty. Also that you used the vehicle without insurance being in force in respect of third party risks a contravention of section a hundred and forty three of the road traffic act to that are you guilty or not guilty? Not guilty. Also, that on the twenty first of June you've used the motor vehicle at Worley on Accrington Road when there was no test certificate in force. Are you guilty or not guilty? Not guilty. Also, that you failed to produce an insurance certificate on being required to do so. Are you guilty or not guilty? Guilty. And, finally that you failed to produce a test certificate. Are you guilty or not guilty? Guilty. Has he produced these documents to you Miss ? No sir. Have you got the insurance with you? Yes. The test certificate with you? Everything my solicitor was outside. What? I give them to that solicitor that, I were talking to. Which duty solicitor? His duty solicitor's Oh! Mr . . likely to receive custodial sentences. in this instance. I can't see any harm . Would you like me to show the the prosecuting solicitor? Well perhaps it'll save time. . Mm? Knowing business effects it. No take them off. Yes, may please your worships I am satisfied that those documents to cover the defendant for the date in question and will therefore offer no evidence in relation to the protest to these premises but to dismiss them. Could I ask sir Yes, stand up Mr we listening to those three charges and maybe you'll no test certificate in those two . Er Now unless there's a prosecution we have the facts for the other offenses I understand. Yeah so please your worships it was the twenty first of June in the morning when the police officer was on duty on the Aces Accrington at Worley he had occasion to stop the vehicle which was being driven by Mr and he noticed that the excise licence which was being displayed had in fact, expired at the end of March. Mr was unable to produce his documents in relation to the vehicle which he indicated was his own and he was therefore given an H R T one to produce those documents but you will appreciate from the matters that he's pleaded pleaded guilty to this morning he in fact, failed to produce his insurance driving licence and test certificate within the required period. Your worships, those are the brief facts, I would ask you consider back duty of eight pounds thirty three pence at being called a month of May. I think you'll find He says . I would like them both to go back from the month of June. I know. I'd also ask you to consider costs of ten pounds. . He could have the li you can have your licence back offenses to endorse it with. Yeah and er . You're able to help him anyway. Yes, I wonder if I may Can I just say before we start but er why that he doesn't call June and his licence for seven months. Sir, I apologise, I was going by this figure made by which indicated that it expired on the thirty first of March, I think and in fact, that is a an error on the officer's part it would appear from the licensing authorities in fact, it expired at the end of May. Yeah. Yeah. . Your worships er, these offenses arrived out of er what was, initially a road traffic accident which occurred on the twenty first of June er, when er, Mr 's vehicle came into collision with er, a vehicle that was erm stationary in the centre of the road waiting to turn right. No er allegations of erm concerning the correct, his driving er, are made by the pro prosecution er as a result of the incident but er, as a result of the officer's enquiries er, it came to light that Mr was er, in breach of some of the er, other regulations regarding road uses and so the summonses which are to deal with this morning have er have been issued against him. Erm, and you will be aware that at two of er, three of the er summonses that are now left here to de deal with, that's three of the four er, do in fact, relate to clearly produce the documents. Er, failure to produce his driving licence failure to produce a test certificate for the vehicle and failure to produce his insurance documents and what Mr says in respect of er, those three offenses is that er, the officer, he accepts, did tell him that he was obliged to produce the documents to a police station but he says that he was suffering some shock as a result of the road accident and er he didn't appreciate what the officer was saying to him at the time and, never having had to produce his documents at the police station before er, he had never er no , known that that was a procedure that had to be followed and in the circumstances he didn't pay any attention to the print on the H R T er, one form that was issued to him and he didn't produce the documents. It was completely ignorance on his part in that respect. Er your worships, the one remaining summonses, the one relating to the fact that his vehicle er, wasn't taxed at the time of the accident and, I think er he he will be aware his tax er, did run out at the end of May and this accident happened on the twenty first of June. I've asked him about that and what he said is that er, he was saving up and he was going tax the vehicle as soon he was able to do so but he didn't have the funds and er, to do so at, at that time. Erm he is obviously aware that er by not having the vehicle taxed it's going to cost him considerably more than if he had er taxed the vehicle at the right, correct and proper time. Your worships, Mr works for Wallbank aerials in Worley and he works for them as an engineer his vehicle was erm something that he did use for work, but unfortunately as a result of the accident his has been written off and he hasn't yet been able to er, replace it and so he's having to be erm er, chauffeured by the company to do his er his work. Erm he was using at that time an R registered Ford Escort er, which was er, only insured third party, fire and theft. He receives for his employment a take home pay of seventy three pounds per week, he lives with his parents and pays a board of twenty pounds per week he's fortunate in that his employer takes him to work in the mornings but he has to catch the bus home in the evening and at lunchtime on Saturdays which costs him seven pounds forty. He hasn't any other commitments and he would ask that erm he be allowed to pay the fine at the rate of twenty pounds per week. Your worships, those are the circumstances I would ask you to bear in mind that this man a ha , has four summonses against him purely as a result of really ignorance as far as purchasing documents is concerned they were in order and erm he would of produced them had he realised what the officer was saying to him and er, that he would of realised had he not been suffering the shock, but he was actually sufferance suffering at the er at the time of the accident. I don't think your worships. Well Mr er pleading guilty to these offenses and we've listened to what the solicitor has said on your behalf the main offence of having no excise licence you'll be fined seventy five pounds and be willing to pay eighty pounds thirty three back duty and ten pounds costs and for the offenses of failing to produce you'll be fined ten pounds for each of those three offenses. We will order the fines and costs to be paid at a rate of twenty pounds a week. So I make that a hundred and thirteen a hundred and twenty three pounds, and the costs are thirty three pence? Erm a hundred twenty six thirty three. Sorry, you're right! One, two, three a sa hundred and eight One two, three three three sir. So do, you understand that er Mr ? Yes. You pay out twenty pounds a week the officer of the court is agreed and the address will be given to you by the court usher before you leave it is your responsibility to make sure that money is paid each and every week, the first payment is due by next Tuesday. Erm I'm off sick at the moment from work so so I won't be able to pay the first payment cos, you know ain't got no money. Don't you get any sick payment or Well erm, I've just come up and and the accident so I'm only entitled to money for the first four days. I see. And when you are likely to be earning again? Erm perhaps anywhere next week. Well I do think give fourteen days for the first payment sir. Yes. You have you fourteen days the first payment will be twenty pounds a week thereafter. So by a fortnight today there's gotta be a payment in? Yes. . Alright. May we go sir? Yes, you can leave the court now. Thank you. Back to case thirty one. Miss apparently you represent Mr er well I I notice from the documents with the er summons it was adjourned because erm their solicitor wrote to say that he will be claiming not guilty? Oh yes. Is that the case? Yeah, your worships I understand that the the prosecution are are making application I don't that you should go on with this. So is it ? If if it's not going to trial When they were we'll do it now we'll take it now. I wonder if I can insist, it isn't a matter where and they have spoken to me about this particular case and Go to forty five your worship. Sorry, I forgot the The view of the prosecution that this is matter could be dealt with quite satisfactorily by the way of in the court were minded to do that, if the court would accept that course of action. I understand that Mr would be willing to be bound over. Does that compare with that ? Well obviously Miss the magistrates will need to be satisfied there are grounds why they should bind him over they will also need to be satisfied that there is a fear for the future otherwise they will not bind him over. I appreciate that sir, but you may feel at the end of the day that you need to hear conducts from the case and if he is still present obviously whatever the court wishes to do. I see, well in that case then I will leave it alone, I'll deal with this a little bit later on, obviously it could take As you want. possibly . Who else is present Mrs ? Er number forty one sir,. Do deal with that your worships please? Forty one . Are you Sylvia ? Yes. What is your date of birth please? Ha? What is your date of birth please? Er twenty ninth. And Do you plead guilty or not guilty? Yeah, er guilty. Right. And you're also summoned that on that same occasion you not having given your name and address to any person requiring it at the time, you failed to report the accident at a police station, or to a constable as soon as reasonably practicable and in any case within twenty four hours of it happening again, that's an offence under section twenty five of the road traffic act to that effect do you plead guilty or not guilty? Yeah. You're pleading guilty? Yeah. And finally, that at Worley on the twenty fifth of July nineteen eighty eighty, you being the driver of a motor car you failed to afford precedence to a foot passenger on the carriageway within the limits of uncontrolled zebra crossing on King Street that's an offence under the pedestrian crossing regulations and the road traffic regulation act of ninety eighty four to that do you plead guilty or not Yes. guilty? Yes, guilty. Right, now listen carefully to the prosecution. Do you have difficulty hearing? Yes, I'm aware that be needed. Alright, well perhaps lu turn, turn that way listen to lady speaking here. Just stand as close to her as you like as long as you can hear what's she's saying that's the important thing. your worships Mrs appears before the court today as a result of an accident which occurred on the twenty fifth of July at about four thirty in the afternoon it was on King Street at Worley and there was only her vehicle involved and a young girl who was using the pedestrian crossing. Apparently at this particular time there was a considerable amount of traffic on the road in question and traffic from one direction had halted in order to allow that the young girl and her friend to cross the road they began to cross on the zebra crossing but, as she reached the centre of the road Mrs was driving her vehicle in the opposite direction and she failed to stop the young girl, in her teens, was unable to take, avoiding acci action and she was knocked down as she crossed the road. Apparently she then picked herself up and in fact ran from the scene but Mrs didn't stop and didn't make enquiries as to who the girl was and neither was the matter reported by her to the police in due course. However, the whole incident was witnessed by another driver who took a note of the car number and in turn, of course, reported it to the police and eventually Mrs was interviewed on the eleventh of August of this year she agreed that she was the driver at the time and she replied it's okay, but if the little had stopped after the accident I would of sorted things out I couldn't do anything after she ran off. And that it says, the brief facts, I would ask to consider cost of ten pound. Alright then, yeah. You heard ? Ya, you did alright. Mr was going to speak for you now. Yes, your worships I wonder if I may assist the court o on behalf of er M Mrs erm Mrs er has told me that she thought at the time of the incident again was in fact, nearer to five o'clock than than, than four thirty and she was driving from Billington towards Clitheroe she had come through the traffic lights at the bottom of Accrington Road in Worley and she was proceeding along King Street in Worley er, towards towards Clitheroe and sh she has told me that at the time there was a considerable amount of traffic on the road and yo i in fact had that confirmed to you by er, my friend er the the traffic was sufficiently heavy that in fact, the the traffic travelling in the direction of Blackburn er was wai was backed up to the traffic lights as far as the zebra crossing and beyond it and so as Mrs erm was travelling towards Clitheroe her view of the children on the footpath at the opposite side of the road was obstructed by the cars that were er, travelling towards Blackburn. And so erm, it wasn't as though these children ran across an open zebra crossing and she could see the children travelling er, walking or running all the way across the er er er er the pedestrian crossing the two children one was estimated by her to be about six years old, and the one who was actually knocked down was estimated by her to be about er, nine years old and she wasn't travelling at any significant speed at all, she was travelling slowly because of the amount of traffic and she says that er the first she saw them was erm, appearing from the behind a car and dashing across the front of her car, and in fact, it was only the the the one who ran first the the older of the two children that she actually hit, she hit hit her with the near side front of er of her vehicle. She hit her and at the same time as she hit her she virtually came to a er, a stop because of the fact she wa she started to brake as soon as she saw the the children appear er, but ne never the less contact was made but thankfully for her and for the child the the contact was a a at no significant speed, the child was just knocked off her feet and she got up and waved to Mrs and said I'm alright and she ran off and she was away before Mrs had time, even to undo her safety belt to get out of the car. She accepts that she then was confused, she didn't know what to do erm she didn't think there was any point in getting out of the car which is what sh she should of done, she should of tried to make some enquiries about the child er, but she er, she looked around shrugged her shoulders and and then carried on her journey because she didn't think there was anything else she could do about it. And then again, ignorance er, at what she should subsequently have done er, then took over because she didn't realise that by having had er made contact with an individual erm it was necessary for her to report the matter to the police and she just didn't realise that that was something that she should have done. Your worships, er, there's nothing at all more sinister in the failure to stop and failure to report than than that,i th that is a a true record of the er er er of the incident as far as Mrs was concerned erm and it is something which erm comes about an accident which came about probably through the inexperience of the children er, running across the pedestrian crossing thinking that they have priority erm and not having regard to other road users er, and Mrs was travelling at slow speed but it was she was put in a difficult position by the the way in which the children ran across the road. Erm your worships as far as the personal circumstances are concerned she is fifty nine years old, she hasn't worked for the last three years she's in receipt of invalidity benefit similarly her husband who hasn't worked for the last ten or eleven years er, is on invalidity benefit. Erm she would ask that and fine that impose today er, could be paid by her at the rate of five pounds per week erm, she er runs a car her invalidity income amounts to forty six pounds fifteen pence per week and she also receives a super annuation payment from her former employers Goldeson's Hospital at the rate of a hundred and three pounds per month but she and her husband do have to er to run the home and er, and run the house er, run run the car and she would ask that she'll be allowed to pay at the rate of five pound per week. Yep.. sit down and watch Mrs . Oh thank you. Sit down there. Well Mrs you're pleading guilty for these offenses and we've listened to what Mr has said on your behalf and we're going to be as lenient as we can in the circumstances. For the offence of failing to stop you'll be fined fifty pounds, you're licence will be endorsed with five penalty points. For failing to report you'll be fined twenty pounds and your licence will be endorsed and for failing afford precedence on the pedestrian on a zebra crossing you'll be fined ten pounds. You will also be required to pay ten pounds costs. That's ninety pounds and we will order it be paid at a rate of five pounds a week. So Mrs the court will endorse your licence that means that the fact that you have these offenses er against your record now will be entered onto on your driving licence by the court, the court will then send your driving licence to the driving licence centre at Swansea so that they can er also record on your driving record. You'll get your licence back in about three weeks time from the driving licence centre. You must start paying five pounds a week by next Tuesday the court usher will give you the address of the court but you must make you send that money every week. Yes. Alright? Right. You can go now Mrs . Thank you. Take care of it. Mrs ? Mr sir. Is that all? Yes. Oh fine. Would you deal with an additional matter please your worships er, not on your list he's only been brought in almost at the start of the court of this morning. Carl Robert . Is he outside or is in he cells? He's in the cell sir. I think he'll be m that there was but the figures are actually not as er as er disappointing as er Mr may feel. We do acknowledge that the fatalities by the end of er by the end of December last year fatalities had increased in the county but that does, but that's not really the figure that goes, go on because the numbers involved are actually quite small. Overall during last year, this is to the end of, of November actually because fin figures aren't available for the end of the year, the reduction was four point nine percent, which compares with four point three percent in the previous year, so not only are they still going down, they're actually going down slightly more than they were in the previous year and that must be encouraging. And the next point on that is that the amount of road safety in the base budget figures, the amount from various different areas whether it's education, training, publicity, accident investigation or traffic calming, that amount of money is untouched so the same amount will be spent in the coming year a as was spent last year. As far as the capital receipt money goes, not all, it's not been possible to spend all of that this year because the development of some of these urban traffic calming schemes is actually very complicated and we've had to re-think some of them. The result is of that is not fortunate that they've been delayed but that in fact we have as much money to spend on them next year from the capital receipts as we will have spent this year, so in a sense we, we're not going backwards there either. And then I would just draw attention to the proposals. Several of them there. Er, rural traffic calming, speed cameras, provision for cyclists, pedestrian are all new money with a road safety bias in it, so I think we've done the best that we could this year. Thank you Mr . Mr Oh one sorry one last point. Mr asked about traffic calming on new roads. Er and the answer to that is yes. Er when development schemes are put before us, or put before districts, it is possible to er to include a scheme which is designed to be a calmer scheme and in fact we have our own advice notes on roads and res residential areas that we hope to advise developers on that. And in fact the there, most of the traffic calming is actually being paid for and carried out by the developer for that scheme. Thanks Mr . Mr . Yes er Chairman erm the eighteen point three million that we quoted in last year's report, we actually added into the revenue budget the provision for structural maintenance that was contained in the capital programme. Erm, there is a figure of seventeen point two million being quoted in this report. As it says, it's just the revenue works programme. If you add in the structural maintenance which is in the capital programme, which amounts to two point two million, and add that to the seventeen point two, you get nineteen point four million and that's the figure that needs to be with last year's figure at eighteen point three. So the equivalent figure for, for the last year is nineteen point four, that's an increase of one point one million. Now part of that is inflation and part of it is the addition of, of erm proposals which are in the report erm from the Policy and Resources allocation of nine hundred and ninety thousand. Right, thank you for that clarification Mr . Right, can I take you to the recommendation on page six. Agreed. Agreed, thank you. Right, agenda item number six which is on page one of the blue book. regional transport strategy. The committee are asked to support this initiative by to develop the sustainable regional transport policy and to appoint the chairman and two other committee members to attend the conference being arranged in March nineteen ninety four. I would suggest that there would be logic in both the other spokespersons attending this conference. Does that meet with committee's approval? Agreed Right, good, thank you. Item seven, shaping the way ahead. This is an update on the consultation following the conference which was held in July nineteen ninety two I think, yes, erm and basically seeking the committee's approval to have a follow up conference this July in the centre in and to all members of the Council to attend as erm for approved as approved duties. Erm, Mr would like to say a few words about the conference overall, er sorry about, yes the conference. Yeah. Thank you, thank you Chairman. Er yes both this and the previous item are linked in a way. Erm, the, the regional conference will be a major national and indeed international conference and I think it's important that are there to participate and influence what goes on in the future. We are, as you will be aware, in the midst of a very intensive debate about transport policy in the moment, at the moment, er provoked by various things, the M Twenty Five widening proposals, British Rail privatization, er shortage of runway capacity, a variety of things. All of these will be dealt with at that major conference so it is important that we are there. The July conference that we're planning. The timing is quite nice really and deliberately so in that this will be the follow up to that in a way and it also follows the earlier conference, as you've heard. What we're talking about,w what we intend to talk about in July is not just whether or not our policies are the right ones but the practicality of implementation, which is actually the hardest bit of all to grasp, and what sort of things we might do, whether it's about spending more money, whether it's about influencing people, whether it's about physically restraining people on where they should go. So I recommend that conference to you and I hope it will be er an interesting one. We'll certainly do our best to make sure it is. Right, thank you. So the recommendation on page six of the blue book. Agreed? Agreed. Thank you. Item eight, the highways maintenance works programme selection of schemes. This sets out the draft proposals and erm will after this meeting go to all members of the Council for them to go through with a toothcomb as well as you. Erm, if you feel that you are in any way upset by the distribution of schemes in this booklet as it stands, your chance is between now and March to get back to the officers and say, but what about mine. Fair comment. Mr . Not too many of you though I think Absolutely right. I mean, the point about this is that actually I must emphasise it's a needs based assessment, both in allocating the overall amount of money that goes to the various areas and er those of you who've already looked at it will see that area three seems to have a disproportionately high amount of the money. Erm, but it's not actually disproportionate. The, the amount of money is allocated on a weighted mileage basis so it's to do with the length of mileages in the area and it also reflects the various types of surveys that are done to assess the condition of the, the roads in the various areas, so that's how the money is first divided up on an area basis, but within that all the schemes that are listed here have been promulgated either from such as yourself, from members of the general public, or as a result of our own inspections er and a priority has been assessed to them in a methodical way. But, having said that, if you feel, particularly with schemes that you are particularly familiar with, that that one is above or another or we could substitute rather than, there won't be any more money, that's the point I need to stress I think. You can make pleas for extra schemes but if you do so I could only suggest that you also accompany it with one that you would rather er is not done, so there are actually replacements rather than additions. I'd best, I'd best leave it there. Right, I've got Mr followed by Mr . Chairman members I, I'll look very hard for, for the words I know you will say and I will support you, that we really don't want members bringing up detailed points like that at this committee. was er whether the please ensure erm looking at carriageway major repairs you see area two tended to ninety three thousand pounds and that covers a lot of things which might include . Would it be possible for areas in area two with that information please? Yes, we'll certainly do that. I'll ask Mr to get that arranged for you. Thank you Mr . Mr . That you very much Mr I've got Mr followed by Mr . Thank you erm I hardly ever comment on these but I just, I wasn't sure what because quite often these things go under another guise, but there are a number of schemes on the drawing board for investigation as you all know and Mr will know some of those they've been around for, for some years. I thought that they were about to come to fruition. I just hope that they aren't completely lost and in particular I'd just mention the because it's being increasingly used and will be as the bypass comes in into use because access will be restricted to the, the erm roundabout. It's extremely noisy because the surfacing at one stage just didn't take properly for all sorts of reasons the traffic along there is increasing quite dramatically and I hope that will be part of those schemes. I'm not trying to work something new, it's already around and I just wanted to make sure it's not forgotten. I'm sure it hasn't been forgotten Mr . Can I . Mr . Thank you Madam Chairman. Erm I'm not gonna mention that sort of little village in the north that I come from but on page twelve I do notice that thousand pounds . This has surprised me a little. Could you give me just a little clarification on that Okay thank you Mr . Mr . Thank you Chairman. I think that's probably covered by Mr 's point but we'll seek clarification in a second. Erm, please,appalling and have been for many years and er the whole of the road needs to be done. Mr Yes. Obviously there are a number of detailed points and these are just the ones that are coming off the top of this meeting and you will have more when you take them home and, and read them. Most of the schemes that are put in here are actually assessed by the area highway engineer and if you've got particular schemes, especially ones that you know you've talked about in the past, the best way of dealing with them is to speak to him directly and say, why isn't it in this time? If you're not happy with the answer then I'd be pleased to hear about it and er and er obviously we can assess the priority . Erm, on there's a specific question I'd like to ask er if he could throw some light on that one. Yes, if I can mention that the is on the and it's really associated with the government's intention to raise the er limit of lorries to forty tons by nineteen ninety nine. Now what we have done is looked at s these causeway relief arches which pass the water from one side of the to the other at . We've looked at those and the v they have very seriously deteriorated. The concrete's spalling, the reinforcement is being attacked and we've looked at various ways in which they can be repaired or replaced. To replace them, for example, would cost something over a million pounds, but this is actually a repair to those er culverts the . Right, thank you Mr . Right, can I take you to the recommendation on page nine that the programme be circulated to all members of the committee. Erm Quickly then I would be the case Yes but we usually have a similar document on the minor capital works. We've got, we haven't got capital programme there is minus of two thousand to show in appendix two but we usually have an itemized area by area booklet on the minor scheme so that we know where the minor capital schemes are, but we haven't got that That's right. It's gonna be brought to the March meeting. Paragraph three point six . Is that okay then? Yes. Right, thank you very much. Can I have your approval that it goes to the rest of the Council then? Thank you. No, right. Item nine item for information really update on last committee meeting. Mr . completely wrong procedure. I, I can't understand the secretariat allowing this to come out were told by the president that it was not possible to use this money unless it was grant related. Also on item one six two indicated very very clearly and very positively that the money would be found in the nineteen ninety four ninety five budget, not from the ninety three budget and er somehow you've got to resolve one or the other. I agree with what has been put on the agenda of our last meeting and that should be and that should be and that is fate, you cannot alter that unless you do something about it. The reason it's come out in this way is that you had the debate on the er original proposals for this extra money which didn't go as was recommended er and you made a decision on that and then later in the agenda, and I can't find the, the exact point now but you had a discussion and a suggestion was made and agreed that if there was any money left over investigations should be made and that the surveyor should give erm consideration Madam Chairman to using any of that, perhaps for a camera, and that was agreed, and it is noted somewhere, and that's what Mr has done. So I would argue with you Mr whi which was one six two part two on page four Madam Chairman what I call just below item two top of page three of the minutes. Minute one six O r below refers to the suggestion that some or all of the uncommitted savings might be used to finance the purchase of equipment to facilitate the early introduction of a speed enforcement camera trial site. Nineteen forty four nineteen forty five. No, no, no, that was, that was on the revenue Can I clarify that one? I think there's a bit of Right, can I ask the county surveyor to clarify then please. What, what we have actually is two proposals on speed cameras, if I can make that point. We th to rehearse a little bit of the debate we had last time on speed cameras,th there was erm discussion about who should fund the camera themselves because being a, the Department of Transport and Home Office recommendation, that they should be funded by the police, but because of Mr 's question at full Council and the wish of this committee to spend some of this additional money if you like, or in ninety three four for safety related measures, it was thought wise to combine the two and actually try and fund a trial er package of speed cameras cos it's, it's about six sites and one camera, from the ninety three four budget that we've actually found. Now, in addition to that, and I don't know if this is the source of the confusion, we've also made provision in the ninety four five budget for another er camera site operation, except that it's a lower figure because that doesn't actually include the camera because we made it clear that as a result of the decision last time here we didn't want to create a, a permanent precedent that this committee always picked up the bill for the camera. So that is the position as it was agreed last time and this report really says that. It says that of the identified possible savings of, I think it was three hundred and seventeen thousand, we've already got commitment to about two thirds of those, but there is sufficient money left to fund a speed camera site th erm in the county and we have acted on that. We now have er a working group with police and indeed with because we want consistency of procedures across the county and are now working towards implementing such a site during this financial year. So you're saying that the treasurer was wrong to say that er in funding No No Er, no, I think that's a misunderstanding. Mr , can you What I said at the last committee was I merely advised the committee that if they went ahead in this current financial year that the grant would not be available. Erm the committee took into account my er my comment but still decided to go ahead with the scheme. I, I don't think I ever said that we couldn't go ahead with it this year, I merely pointed out, I merely It's written down wrong in here then. pointed out the grant and in my view the minutes at one five nine explains very clearly precisely what I said at that, at that committee. No, it's not wrong here Mr There is no grant for ninety four five either. That budget provision is County Council funding. shouldn't be doing this then. No. Well, if we, if we don't so something about these speed cameras Mr we are not gonna get them and we have all agreed that we are very anxious to get the grant Well, we're still trying to get them through the Police Authority but we are making provision through this budget if we don't, yeah Why should we spend out eighty thousand could be spent on better things than putting cameras on posts. Well a at the moment I'm not sure that we, we think that. I think that there a we are strongly committed to thinking that the cameras are a very important trial. Can I ask erm Inspector, Inspector to comment please? to the last meeting, it was my understanding the same as everybody el everybody else that we have not the funds or budgeting for a camera in this financial year and that approved . Th in the coming years we will make budget provisions for cameras and the hardware at the site will be provided for by . Right, thank you for that. are we lending the police the money? Well, it's a rather complicated thing but I think we need the cameras and I think we must go ahead and get them into so that we can see if they work as well in in terms of road safety as they have in trials elsewhere, because the results that have been obtained in London and also in Cornwall and Nottingham have been very very impressive, as you know. Mr one more Thank you Chairman. Jus just to clarify one point. There is a meeting of the Police Committee on Monday and there is an item on their budget for the provision of the camera and of the back up support for processing the offenders as part of their budget proposals and they will be considering that on Monday. That's for ninety four five incidentally. Right, thank you. I've got Mr and Mr . Thank you Madam Chairman. Erm, the matter was debated very clearly er at the last meeting and set the scene er quite clearly so erm we welcome the conclusion and erm I hope go ahead Thank you. Mr followed by Mr Thank you Madam Chairman. Erm, I, I do welcome the conclusion and er er the fact that we are going ahead with these cameras. If I could just clarify this then. I understand that th as we are funding this that they will be used on county roads rather than on trunk roads? Yes, a useful point of clarification because actually we bid to the, we've made a submission to the Department of Transport to install cameras on their behalf on their roads and we want them to pay for them. Now the indications are that they are likely to provide some funding though we haven't had that formally in writing yet. But they are taking the view that they will only provide the service equipment, that's the cabling and the installation and what have you, but not the cameras and that it's again up to the Police Authority to provide the cameras. But the ones that we are funding will be on county roads yes. Right, thank you. Mr and then I think we'll draw that to a conclusion. Thank you Chairman. Can I just ask a question? Reading minute one anyone response I don't see why not. Are you offering? Not personally but I have be I have been asked. We don't want a notice on it saying sponsored by, but I certainly think that's something we should look at if the offer was forthcoming yes. Right, thank you. So, we have an approval on, is that agreed? Agreed Thank you. Right, item ten, the development of land at , the new interchange. Committee recommended to approve a scheme which is a requirement of the planning permission for the neighbourhood development. I've got Mr and Mr . Sorry Order. Erm, this erm interchange will relieve a lot of the pressure on not only the that comes into but also the roundabout, one of the busiest roundabouts in the county, but I think the erm two of the notes were conservation areas the provision of a footpath I think and the other thing, in , I hope that will be considered because at least this new junction will draw up more traffic from the south and will be a great use to people there and it could well . Thank you Mr . Doctor . Yes, I'd just like to support this view about erm but I think the construction will tip the balance as to the way traffic going er from London towards will route erm and I think is gonna be the main victim. I think complaints about erm and it seems where we have the problem of our own making if you like with this improved road scheme we are installing traffic calming erm and er I think that to be told that it's going to be left and looked at in relation to all the other er sites needing traffic calming is a little bit er Thank you Doctor . Mr . Yes, if I could comment on the traffic calming. Yes, that certainly is perhaps the major comment to come from the conservation exercise. No one seems to be querying the junction itself. What I would like to do. What I, I intend to do is to, I think it would be unfortunate if, as the result of a major development which is actually funding this new junction, the County Council then has to pick up the bill for other ameliorating effects a little bit further on the network. So I, I will go back to the developer and see if they will be prepared to fund traffic calming work. Of course, that isn't in the agreement that is already signed, so whether I shall be successful or not, of course we don't know, but I will do that as a first resort. If it becomes a question for the County Council to actually refund it then I think the report is right in that we must consider whether the needs for traffic calming here are any m higher or lower than other requests for traffic calming elsewhere in the county because you will be aware there are an awful lot of requests for traffic calming. Thank you. Thank you. Erm, recommendation on page fourteen. Agreed? Right, item eleven, the access road. I have Mrs wishes to make a change to the recommendation on page five of this report. Right, okay, thank you. It's a very slight change to the recommendation erm Chairman which appears at the end of the report. Unfortunately it's not numbered because it was a late item. I would like to add please erm, and to seek any planning permission which may be necessary, to that recommendation. Just in case it's, it is necessary at some time to, to put in a formal application for the road as well as the site. Also, I have to report the receipt of another letter of objection which I think the county surveyor is wa aware about but does not alter his recommendation to the report. Chairman, if I could just add to that. Yes, I am aware of it. This is a letter er submitted by on behalf of who I believe is and this is on the question of the absence of an agricultural appraisal so we will be carrying that out prior to the decision of the Planning Committee. That's the first point. One other letter, while we're mentioning receipts of things, the report does say that er Environmental Services Committee will be considering this and I have er yesterday received a letter from and I just want to tell you the outcome of that before the actual vote occurs, if there is one. Erm, it's recommended that County Council be informed that Borough supports in principle the construction of the access road. Regards to link, that's the linkage on the bottom, as an essential and important element in the overall package, a request, I'm abbreviating this to give the main points, request the County Council to consult this Council at an early stage upon the detailed design of the access road and wants, and they're really repeating, wants the County Council to implement in its entirety the access road at the earliest possible date. And they want the associated traffic management proposals included as part of the scheme. Now just a brief comment on that. I have to say it's not the current proposal to, to complete the bottom link of the scheme to the timescale which is associated with the erm er waste plant at . The pr current proposal is the access road to the new plant but not beyond it and I'm not proposing to alter that. The whole br reason for bringing the scheme forward in the programme was associated with the waste management plant and it wasn't er er a scheme which would have achieved that priority in its own right. Thank you Chairman. Right, thank you for that clarification Mr . I've got Mr . Thank you Chairman. Thank you for allowing me to . Erm, I intend to brief because A because everyone has got in front of them a very very thorough and I shouldn't think there are too many questions that people would want to ask. as possible. It has become necessary, having found the site at that we would need the access road. The access road is not a major item for this committee until well beyond the year two thousand and four. Thereby bringing it forward is purely to service the, the new complex and also it will help relieve the traffic problems areas of . Erm, therefore there is certainly no intention of taking this road any further than the site, definitely not south of the railway line. Er, the public consultation that was held actually didn't produce anybody saying they were opposed to the line of the road or even that the road should go there, so we seem to have a fairly unanimous decision that way, that the road should be er implemented. Er, Council are also agreeing to the road and a District Council are in agreement with the road, albeit that they have asked for the road to follow more closely to the erm but I believe it is acceptable that the road and the line of the road in general principle is . The concerns that I have are that when the road does go in that it does protect and it does in fact more of a protection by being there than it is in actual fact in existence at the moment. Other than that, I would hope this meeting do agree on the recommendations of us that the road is accepted It's on page five. access road is accepted and that it can be included in the design list for nineteen ninety four and five. Thank you Chairman. Thank you Mr . I have got Mr followed by Mr Thank you Madam Chairman. Madam Chairman, you will know that I have written a number of letters . Erm, really it's the consultation that er the people of my angry about. well . At the preview I asked no one in knew anything about it. Oh yes, it had been leafleted but that was . Over the years it has gone on such a long time. This was considered in nineteen eighty two . Because the people of really didn't feel they'd been consulted, I, I carried out a little survey of my own and got a very good response. And these aren't the sort of people that write to us using block capitals all the way through, these are reasonable people who've had their property damaged over the years some quite horrendous tales and talk about walls being knocked down. They hear the access road. They would prefer to call it the . They hear the access road is coming , they are not consulted, they don't know anything about it and over the years again I must reiterate. I'm sorry about this. The newspaper are going on and on and on about the problems that people have road and road . In the Argus . You see this really isn't a link road it's a bypass. I sometimes think the access road bears as much relation to as Paul Gascoigne does to the Queen, Queen Mother. Thank you Mr . Well, I think all I can do is to reiterate that this road would not be considered for construction at all at this stage if it wasn't for the probable re-siting of the erm transfer station and therefore we would not be looking at any aspect of it at this time if it were not for that. I've got Mr followed by Mr . Thank you Chairman. I, I won't take up long, much of your time, I just didn't want anyone to think that I had er given up in my old position not to be a no doubt, I believe other measures could have been taken. I don't need to be reminded that it was the previous administration who put it in the structure plan but I also want to remind those who weren't here that I was utterly opposed to that at the time. I am still opposed to it and er I just think that it's not the right way to reconcile contradicting policies that we've had. Are you going to lie down in front of the bulldozers? I'm not, I may look daft. Thank you Mr . I've got Mr . Well, I mean of, of course it, it is an unfortunate choice, isn't it, access road? Anybody who knows the locality would agree absolutely with Mr . It is a bypass an and it, it's good in that respect because it will do erm a lot indeed for people who live on Road, for example, people who live on Road and I know that Mrs knows that area particularly well and might agree with what Mr says that it, it doesn't actually get into at all , therefore it's er Excuse me Mr , did you not hear what Mr said? It went into the structure plan under the previous administration under the name access road. But you made a mistake. Thank you so much. Erm, no, I'm agreeing with Mr . Mr is making the point, a perfectly reasonable one. Erm, the second point really was that erm as far as Highways is concerned and I mean we, as you've explained earlier on, as Councillor explained, it's gonna be very very tight I think, erm in years to come in terms of major highways and starts of major highways. I mean all I, I would like to, to say is that so far as this particular road, whatever you may call it, er is concerned, that we look at highways priorities in this committee and that we would receive an assurance that this would not be bulldozed through, if I may put it that way, erm and opposed to one two three four other major schemes which are perhaps of more importance in terms of highways rather than er a, a corporate objective. Thank you Mr . I think those points perhaps ought to be taken up at the General Purposes Committee since er we have the problem of their decisions. Er, do you want to add anything to that? Just to answer some of the queries and comments that perhaps with Mr on the er problems of consultation, which we do accept, and they're, if I can apologize for the coverage of the leaflet. Er, a decision was made. In the event it proved to be the wrong decision. We didn't extend it far enough. In fact two thousand leaflets were sent out so we actually tried quite hard but we, we did exclude some of the people who should have been leafleted. That wasn't though the only form of public address that was given. The m public consultation meetings and the exhibition were advertised in the local press and I believe on the radio as well, so word of mouth I think in, in the event did overcome that but I can understand people's feeling that they were excluded and it was not deliberate, it was an oversight. So I'm sorry about that. Just to be clear, the, we talked here about er the funding and the, the need not to, to let this muddy the this committee's own highway programme and I think we we're aware of that. The cost of the additional piece of road beyond the er the link to the er waste transfer station would be an extra one and a half million. Now, that is not required to access the site so that actually would compete, I suspect, to funds against this committee and er and that might influence people's decision on how far to go with the road. A, a point on programming too er I make really because of the discussion at the General Purposes Committee last week. Erm, we have looked again at the programme for building this road. There's certainly no way we can shorten it and in fact erm s programme timing is very dependent on the ease or difficulty with which we actually get the land. Er, so I just make that point because of the debate last week. Thank you. Thank you. Can I take you to the recommendation on page five of the report then. Is that agreed? Agreed Thank you. Right. Item twelve, traffic regulations. Erm, the first one, twelve A, is Street and . S sorry, Street, Road, Lane to the , traffic calming scheme. Agreed? I have some, some indicating. Doctor Erm, thank you. I mean this scheme doesn't look to me like available but I'd just like to say reading the objections I am amazed by the large number of and er to stop the running, the rat running, you've anyway erm speed cameras are not gonna be much help. Erm, speed cameras have their place but er it's not everywhere. Thank you for that Doctor . I've got Mr . Thank you Chairman. I will be very brief but just to welcome the fact that in we have been waiting for nearly fifty years What? They hadn't even invented traffic humps fifty years ago. we have been waiting a long time traffic calming . Er, sorry not fifty years, twenty five years. I, I'd just like to highlight objection number one point three motorists have not seen the . Thank you Chairman. Right, thank you very much, so that is agreed. Can we proceed to twelve B, item one, the County S Secretary has, now wait a minute, we've gotta change the recommendations because the I, thank you Mr but I this is a little bit important. Erm, I, I apologize but for some reason I can't explain that the recommendations on, on this items twelve B one and twelve B two should read as follows. Firstly, that approval be given to and the County Surveyor be authorized to implement the traffic calming scheme as shown on drawing numbers, the drawing numbers are right, and secondly, that the traffic regulation order be made as advertised. It's just to split the recommendation up to make sure we've got the authorities we need to do the whole lot I think Chairman. Right. Was that clear to everybody? Mrs ? Yes, as I represent the area erm and it does say under five point three that local I would like to comment please, just on a few. Yes, if you can keep it short and I will, I will. Erm, I'm in favour because I had a walkabout with therefore I would like to say on five point three the and on five point six I would like to say B can we just have some traffic calming on the boundary, such as Lane, Road? And erm on page thirty six, on two, is it a good idea because has a dreadful bend and I'm really in favour of this. And on page thirty nine could we please make sure that the telephone box does not move closer to people's homes. If it means that it has to go on the other side of the road, could we please have that. That's it. Thank you. We are looking at that. Erm, Doctor . Thank you. point made regarding buses and road humps. Erm, are the same profile of speed humps erm because I note minibuses this situation here. Thank you. I've got Mrs and I think we'd better leave it at that. Sorry,when I read this last night. This amazed me. I mean, what is the use of a if you're miles away from everybody's home? Why don't we locate them in the middle of, of fields?why do they have them at all? Erm, I think if Mrs understood the area, she'd know why. Well, we are looking at the situation and I think that's all we can say about that. Erm, right. Can I have your agreement to the up-dated amendment please? Sorry. I'm sorry. Mr wanted to come in before we agreed I think. Sorry. Sorry th it's just there are two comments made er and I think they're actually questions. One was about ex from Mrs about extending the scope of the scheme. Er, this one already costs a hundred and seventy thousand. The difficulty we have with both this scheme and the others that er you'll come to in a moment is that there are always people who want you to go that bit further. Er, this has been the decision for the boundary of this scheme though clearly, in monitoring it afterwards, we need to take account of whether or not it actually transfers problems. We will do that and er and monitor it afterwards. Mr , buses and road humps. Er, and minibuses and road humps. Erm, yes, the questions of profiles is being er dwelt upon in committees like this all around the country at the moment. Buses and road humps are an unhappy combination and a lot of these reports, in fact all of them bus routes to get a standard objection now from, from bus operators and it, of course it's not just in this county, it's, it's nationally. Er, we are still learning a lot about traffic calming. At the moment, sad to say that physical vertical is the most effective means of slowing people down and and narrowings and visual erm signs and that kind of thing, road markings, do not have the same effect er but we are working on that and hopefully in our next batch of schemes we will start to experiment with things like speed cushions and what have you which, which have a lesser effect on, on erm on both minibuses and buses. Not really the answer to the question but it's the best I can do. Right, so that is agreed? Erm, can I take you on to the next one which is twelve B two. Now again the County Secretary wants to alter the recommendation on page forty nine. The wording will be exactly the same as the one before, Madam Chairman, but with the right plan numbers. Okay, erm, do you want to say anything about this ? Er Road and Avenue? I think only, no, I don't think so, I'm gonna, I'm gonna pass. Right, oh,. Erm, er Brigadier d Brigadier , sorry. A small point. Erm, I'm not in any way objecting to this at all. . Erm, it seems an awful lot of money, eighty thousand pounds, er erm I just wondered how much of that sort of money Absolutely Right, okay, thank you. I'll ask him to comment on that in a minute. Mrs . No, I don't want Oh sorry, you were waving at mis at Brigadier . Sorry. Erm, Mr . Thank you, thank you Madam Chairman. Just as Chairman of governors of the local boys school, we've er, as Mr knows only too well, have written on a number of occasions erm saying how soon will the er these measures be brought forward, and I welcome them and er hope that we will agree them. Right, thank you. Mr . Right, the general point I think is on cost and consultation. Er, you will not the first year returns estimated at at ninety odd percent I think for this scheme. Er, the current number one figures for casualties, I think, I, I'm just thumbing through my papers, I'm not gonna put my finger on the right one, I think it, the average value of the casualty is about thirty five thousand pounds. The average social cost of a fatality is over seven hundred thousand pounds. And that's of, that's of course aside from the grief and suffering that happens. In this case er many of the casualties are actually school children here. Erm, so the pr the actual cost of the scheme I think has to be borne in mind there. The consultation point is another one and in fact I've made the point myself I think er last year, that for many of these very small schemes, the actual cost, staff cost, in developing the time taken to develop them, far outweighs the actual implementation cost cos this is just the implementation cost of the scheme. It is really a question of judgment. Er, certainly in the last well, all the time I've been involved in developing these schemes, twenty seven twenty eight years now, we've had a gradual increase over the years of involvement in the public, with the public and we've been criticized where we haven't done so. So I think we are actually obliged, and it's right that people should be consulted, but there is a point about it that it takes an awful long time and that is actually the reason why we've got er a whole programme of urban safety management schemes that er are taking a long time to develop, it's almost two years now, and the main reason for that is toing and froing with different designs with members of the public and the worst thing we could do is actually put in a package of schemes which people say, well that's not what we wanted anyway. We'd be better off to save the money. That's all I want to say. Could the County Surveyor just confirm that it's a statutory requirement that all these schemes do have to be publicly ? It's not a statutory requirement for consultation. It's a requirement from road humps that they be advertised, I think I'm right in saying Yes. There's no point of course but they're not like a traffic regulation order. Right erm Mr very quickly please. Yes Chairman. I just wanted to make one comment. I have . I think it's a fatal mistake to have dropped the kerbs as they have. Mr . I'm sorry but I really can't allow you to talk about Square in the middle of a paper on . traffic calming Well, we're not really talking about traffic calming, we're talking about a specific scheme in . I am sorry. Right, can I take you to the amended recommendation on page forty nine. Is that agreed? Agreed. Thank you. Now twelve B three is an extra paper that came to you on Monday, quite a long and complicated paper. I think I'll ask the County Surveyor to comment. Yes, this, this actually, thank you Chairman, this actually is very much an example of, of what I was just saying about consultation. There's been a lot of consultation. Er, we haven't, in the scheme that's before you, we haven't been able to take account of, of all the things that people have said and I think the most significant point about that is the comments that Road should also be covered by this scheme. Now, the cost of this scheme, if I can find it, is three hundred thousand pounds. That gives an idea of what the cost of traffic calming is these days, it's extremely expensive. We are looking at Road, that's the assurance, we are considering that er as er an extension but there isn't funding available for that within the present programme so we will come back with a proposal for Road but it will have to be compared with other big schemes so the scheme we are proposing now is the one that's before you, which er I won't comment on unless people have questions. Yes, the pages are not numbered. Er, the recommendation is on about the fourth That's because it's late I'm afraid. the fourth page of the report. Anybody want to speak on that? Mr , sorry. Yeah, thanks, Chairman for the map of the area. Er I was g I will say what I was gonna say. First of all to thank the Surveyors' Department for cooperation on various things that have taken place and where possible the altered or amended suggestions have gone in er themselves. Erm, I think the scheme has been delayed for quite a long, well, I mean obviously it's important to get this scheme off the ground and when people, and I've had lots of phone calls and discussions about this, and when people have spoken to me I said, it's important to bear in mind two things. A is the cost and B is that these suggestions could cause a time delay in of course the implementation of the scheme. For that reason I don't propose to object in fact I'd be very happy to move it. But I'm very concerned with what the surveyor's just said about regarding Road. Now in the old we had er quite a reasonable scheme on this actual erm but you see, about ten years ago I think it was, there was another estate built on to, it's called and although at that time we made the strongest possible representation for improvements and traffic calming in which is the only road that goes in and nothing was done. And erm I think Road is the key element of this traffic because not only is it a question of the estate but it's the main through road from the up to Gatwick Airport and this is why er I understand that the calming proposal in road has yet to receive the M O T authority to use it because scheme. But I hope that as soon as possible we can with the various approvals and that the money will be found because I would suggest, without the speed reducing measures, this scheme will be a complete waste of money. And when you the schools, the shops in that area, I'm not only surprised it wasn't considered in the first place, but secondly, it is the key to the whole scheme and er although I'm quite happy to move the erm recommendation, I must say that I have a very very deep concern regarding Road. I've got Mr followed by Mr and I think then I Alright, very quick one and then I Thank you Madam Chairman. In principle I think this is a superb scheme but erm I have one reservation. Erm, it's great having a neighbourhood area where all the traffic goes slowly, but there are certain radial roads in where the traffic should move I think at some speed. It's great to go slow where you've got houses, children and all the other things, but I, Avenue, which is on er plan five, is one of the radial roads that goes through the centre of erm out in the direction and to put a thirty mile an hour speed limit on this I think is totally unrealistic. I know there have been a number of accidents in that area but I would hope with all these other traffic calming measures we could have kept that speed up to forty miles an hour. Erm, it's unusual for anybody to have their speed as low as forty miles an hour so I'm very disappointed in having a radial road that I think should be a fairly fast route out of town thirty mile an hour speed limit. Thank you Mr . I've got Mr followed by Mr . is a vast neighbourhood and it's got no outlet, where everything goes up and everything has to come back out again and all that goes along a small country road. Er the speed they come out of that bend is unbelievable and I speak from experience Madam Chairman because my daughter lives on that very corner where the bend is and er Right, I'll ask the County Surveyor to comment on that in a minute. We really ought to have transferred the money I don't think we're ready to do , I think that's the points. Mr . Well, can I, can I broadly welcome erm this scheme and the preceding two schemes these schemes and the areas were chosen by an independent consultant based upon an accident record. That, that is, that is the way that they were chosen, and two years ago, I think, we put one point two million pounds in for the first seven schemes. I'm doubly glad therefore to, to welcome their appearance and I know how difficult it has been and would like to praise all concerned for the intense nature of the negotiations which, which have gone on. I mean, their patience is unbelievable, I think, in the face of, of so many demands for so many changes. I think I'm right in saying Madam Chairman that y of those first seven we've still got two schemes in still to come and there was one in erm so I look forward to the progress and er that we're making on this and all I can say is Thank you Mr . Mr . Yes, the comments on Road. Perhaps if I could deal with Mr 's point first though cos I'll just refer you I think to paragraph three point two, three year accident record there, fifty five injuries, seventy one casualties, many of them taking place on the distributor road network. You've probably seen the speed campaign, you know, kill your speed, forty mile an hour kills, twenty miles an hour you can possibly still get away with it. I don't think I'll say any more about that really cos I think it's self evident. As far as Road goes though, we are in a dilemma, and we have listened to people. Y you'll see amongst the plans that you've, you've got before you, plan number seven actually, shouldn't really be with these papers because it's not a proposal for approval, but it does show the extent of the work that's been done and the key element there is that there are these speed cushions I mentioned earlier on as a possible way forward there, which has been in consultation. They're not something we can do without Secretary of State authorization, that will take time, and as Mr just mentioned, the budget, and we are still proceeding with that budget, but we don't have extra money to do this within that budget at the moment, so, yes, we haven't ignored the problem. We will continue to progress it. I would er agree actually with what I think Mr was a saying on balance, that's it's best to go with the bit that you've got rather than hold that up to, to er to come back to Road later. Road we will have to consider though against other schemes also competing for the next waive of funding. Can I can I ask a direct question ? If the gets the go-ahead on the actual erm traffic calming to be used in Road, how soon after that decision will this committee be able to make a decision on the implementation? Thank you Chairman. We are having, we, we are at the moment reviewing all our traffic calming er requests because there are a whole load of them and in fact some of them we've not been able to proceed as quickly as others so we, we need to look at the whole thing This is part of the scheme before the county committee. No not, not, not erm in the scheme that was identified by the consultant I believe. in the papers in the report But it's not in the recommendation Mr . No, I'm aware of that. And, and I would expect to have completed that review by March. If I can bring a report by March I will do so but it, this is quite a complicated area. Right, well, I appreciate I don't mean just on Road incidentally, I mean on the whole range of traffic calming demands. Right, thank you. I appreciate your concerns but can we take the recommendation on the fourth and fifth pages of the report. Is that agreed? Agreed. Thank you. Item thirteen Road in , residents' parking. This was anticipated that there would be some add-on to the report that came to the last committee. Nothing to add Chairman. Anybody want? Mr . Just one brief comment, Madam Chairman. Obviously, as erm I am in fact the local member referred to in er in the reports and erm it's quite true that erm, it's rare with some of these erm parking proposals that you get so much positive response from the residents but this has been very evident. The only,a the residents have, are of course, once again this goes back to this, the problems that we're facing with the er local government reorganization debate, are at a loss to do er erm to find that the on-street parking provision is the county's responsibility, off-street parking provision is the district's responsibility and actions by, by the district are in fact causing problems for us with this. And er a further er fly in the ointment, if one could put it that way, will be of course with the erm the local hospital whose site is just off this er the key plan provided, their decision from the first of next month to actually charge for spaces within their area, which of course will have a further effect of decanting even more cars into neighbouring streets and thus put pressure on some of the streets which hitherto have not benefited from ah residents' parking so there will be further er obviously further requests from er from those residents of neighbouring streets. Erm, the irony of the sort of split responsibility is that er one of the things that we have to obviously bear in mind with any future in erm extension of residents' parking schemes is the cost, and er it's interesting that the district council's off-street er parking account erm for the area is, has got a reasonable surplus, and er well we as an authority're responsible for, for off-street parking as well. Some of the surplus there could in fact have been ploughed into a er further extensions of the present residents' parking, but of course, as has been mentioned here, I welcome the, the modest er extension of the residents' parking into the other half of Right, thank you Mr . Er, agreed? Thank you. Erm, item fourteen is a erm selective list of civil engineers for contracts. Agreed? Well good evening and welcome to Central Weekend, our audience come from Birmingham. Thank you. We begin with the government agency which threatens to become poll tax. When the child support agency was set up it was greeted with almost universal approval, making runaway dads pay seemed the order of the day. But an avalanche of complaints has almost overwhelmed the C S A and it comes from dads already paying out agreed sums for their kids. So what's gone wrong? Tony you've been married before, you have three children, you know want to marry Alaina there. What's stopping you? I was getting married till the C S A stepped in. Now I can't afford to get married. I can't afford to work and I can't afford to see my children. What are you paying now for your children? Er thirty pound a week. How much do they want? Hundred and twelve. Thirty to a hundred and twelve. Yeah. In one swipe? Yeah. And you can't afford to get married? No. Alaina, how does it feel for you to be told by civil servants how to conduct your life? Well I actually rang them up to say, why why are you taking my wages into consideration, I didn't break up this marriage, I met him a long time afterwards an I was told by a C S A agent or clerk or whatever, that my wedding was nonessential spending. When I said I've got a wedding to pay for, they said to me, well can you think about cancelling it because it's nonessential spending, and I said Your wedding, hang on, your wedding was nonessential spending. You were told that? Yes I was. Nonessential spending. Mhm. Theresa Gorman, that's outrageous. A girl's wedding is nonessential spending. In my mind while you're talking is about these three children who presumably er this gentleman's wife was supposed to be looking after on thirty pounds a week. I think that's ridiculous. He didn't tell us how much money he earns and he didn't tell us how much money he gave his wife when he was married to her and was looking after his own children. That's the kind of information which I think is relevant, not whether he wishes to get married again, that is a separate issue. But has a clerk got the right to tell a couple that their wedding is nonessential spending? I rather think that they are concentrating on the main task which is to see that the children are properly provided for. Well but you What you want to do er what you want after that, including marrying again is a separate matter, his primary responsibility and I'm sure he would agree with this is to the wellbeing of those children Yes but the and that is what matters . L l l let Alaina respond er In saying that, at the end of the month if we do pay this amount of money, I only earn five hundred pounds a month, that's four hundred and forty eight pounds a month. Now like I said before, I didn't break up this marriage, so this is a witch hunt against people like myself, second wives, second partners. I can't even afford to have my own children. At the end of the month with our incomings and our outgoings we're going to be in debit of fifty seven pounds a month. And that doesn't include clothes or anything else. That is just the gas bill, Theresa the money tell me how tell me how to pay for my wedding. The agency's responsibility is to see that those children are properly paid for . No it's not, not it's not . Rubbish. And out of the money it's your Their responsibility is is to get five hundred and fifty million pounds, that's their responsibility. No no,bu but do Alright let me ask Lindsey. But you asked me, do you believe that your wife can look after children Ex-wife on thirty pounds? I pay thirty pounds Three children but I also I also buy school uniforms three children I also pay for school trips, I take them out every weekend, I give them pocket money Pocket money It costs me fifty five pounds But who do you think should pay to look after your children Pardon? if not yourself and your wife. Not on thirty pounds . I do look after them, I do look after them. What you're doing you're just penalizing a hundred a twelve pounds let let's get it right then. So this is the fifty per cent relationship. So that's a hundred and twelve he's expected to pay. Is she taking in a hundred and twelve somewhere? Is she? No. I'm earning it for her. I'm earning it for her, that's not fair. Let me ask Lindsey here, Lindsey how's your marriage going? What marriage? Well tell me about it. It's it's not worth a marriage no more because the C S A and because of people like them sat there that think they know it all. Well tell us erm tell us about the payment and tell us what's happening to you and what you're gonna have to do. Well my husband'll have to leave so I'll claim income support and be as well off as his ex-wife. And if he can't manage then then it's up to him what he does. So my marriage has fallen apart because of these people sat here that think they know everything. own kids have grown up so it doesn't matter to them,just live back in days and make you spend your money the way they tell you and live how you they tell you. Are you two talking about splitting up? Yeah. There's no other choice . Or at least dissolving the marriage? Well th we'll have to split up legally and then we'll still carry on seeing one another. But he we'll have to live apart, we'll have to make us try and make our marriage work by living apart. Is it really as dramatic as that? It is. Because what they left me, I cannot look after my wife and support my other two kids. Plus I can't buy my kids t the first wife, I can't buy them stuff now. Christmas presents Sir Ivan, is this is this sort of thing defensible? Well it's very sad when people have unhappy relationships as we've had described to us. I quite agree. But it wasn't But why should, why should millions Everything was okay till this happened this C S A why should millions of taxpayers pay for your happiness? Why should they have to pay We pay our taxes as well Why should millions of taxpayers pay for your pay rise ? for for your wedding? Yeah. Why should the millions of taxpayers This gentleman thinks that he can bring up a child on a ten pounds a week, it's nonsense . lot of money you can bring them on to bring up. Everybody thought he must think first about the bringing up of the children That's all I think about and this couple over there must think first about the children What about my children ? There is no reason why I or anybody else as taxpayers should pay five thousand million pounds that's every family in this country about three hundred pounds a year for lone parents who are not looking af being pa having the parents the father looking That's just rubbish after the children. We're gonna have far more lone parents Ex excuse me Hang on for a second please. One minute. Everybody thought Sir Ivan, that's where the disgrace is, that's where the disgrace is Sir Ivan please. Nobody the Conservative we government that's implementing this Child Support Act. That's right There's nothing wrong with the Child Support Act . Everybody thought Look can we do one show here we're doing two at the moment? Let's just do one. Sir Ivan. Everybody thought, please everybody thought Is the programme is f to hear you or to hear me? You asked me a question I gave an answer. It would be very it would be very considerate if you did try and answer a little bit briefer alright? a moment or two to answer a question not just five seconds Well it's only half an hour everybody thought that this agency was for runaway dads. Exactly. It appears that the dads who are already paying are the one's who are paying and nobody seems to chasing after the others. Now that's not true. Six per cent are errant fathers. There are te Six per cent are errant fathers. Th Now you tell me how that can be fair. Well let him answer the question. There are two kinds of non-payers. There are those who haven't been found and they are being chased and more of them will be chased Rubbish. two and a half thousand of them were chased and found last month alone so there are something like twenty thousand fathers who were errant and haven't been chased And what about the other eighty thousand who are paying it and you're making them pay more? And then there are thousands of other fathers who are paying ten pounds like this gentleman for a child which costs thirty or forty pounds a week to bring up. Now I hope that everybody here who has has a relationship, a marital relationship is happy . If it costs thirty or forty pounds why do you only fifteen pounds on income support for them? But they can't expect me Could you answer the question ? or the tens of millions of other other taxpayers Can I ask you please Andrew, how well has he worked out for you? It isn't working out for me, I've been told I've gotta increase my payments to a hundred and one pounds fifty two a week for my two children from my previous marriage, and I've been told by Social Security that the hundred and one pound fifty two a week will take my ex-wife and her husband off income support, so I will be keeping her family and their child. Not just my children. You will be keeping your children I would not. No that's not true. No that is rubbish. I have been told by Social Security would let me er excuse me talking to me. Just wait your Child Support Agency does not help does not help husbands. It helps children. turn, right? I was told a hundred and one pound fifty two would be to keep my two children, my ex-wife, her husband and their child, by a Social Security expert. Well they were wrong. That is not . Well they were not wrong. Because they told me that the assessment will be made by the Child Support Agency who would then pass it over to the Income Support Agency who would then take them off Income Support. I'm going to Councillor Lines here who's a Conservative Councillor, hang on Theresa, we have a Conservative Councillor let him answer the question. Er John it looks less defendable every time every time a real person opens their mouths John it becomes less and less defendable? Well who are the ones that are moaning and groaning about it? The ones that are ac actually having to pay for their children. They're not my children, they're their children . What a load of rubbish. Now the Chi the Child Support Agency is now can I speak please? talking rubbish The Child Support Agency is probably one of the few agency organizations within this country that actually that don't know what they're doing tells people what their responsibilities are, not just what their rights are. And I am not willing and the majority of the people are no in this country are not willing to pay for other people's children Well why don't I'm sorry about the individual circumstances , I don't know about the individual circumstances No you never and my children who go to work now have grown up, I've brought them up, I don't want them paying for someone else's children. Sitting in front of you is a gentleman who was paying what, about a hundred pound a week sir? Er a hundred pound a week or a month, a hundred pound a month. It's almost quadrupled to three hundred and fifty a month. That's right. How are you coping with that? Er I can't. Basically I'm er going to lose my job because I can't afford to go there. Erm this is gonna cost this government a fortune because I am a Crown officer, I'm a Crown prosecutor . How how many children? Two by my first marriage. Erm that er that marriage failed like most of these these have, erm what I want to know is er why, when I was disposed of as you like as a useless article, why I am suddenly called upon by this government to be one hundred per cent, not fifty per cent responsible, but one hundred per cent responsible, not only for my children which I'm quite happy to do, but one hundred per cent responsible to keep my wife off of benefit and one hundred per cent responsible if she should ever want one,t for her partner. This is happening in over ten per cent of all the cases that are coming up before your agency or your government's agency, whereby a working parent so-called absent according to you, is supporting not only his children, his ex-wife, or his e if it's if it's the husband supporting Mm. the other way round, supporting an ex-wife and supporting a partner th as well. Just the same as Andrew here is doing. That's a fact. It actually sounds, it actually sounds can I put this to you, it sounds less like a Child Support Agency and more like a Treasury support agency every day doesn't it ? Theresa. You can get a cheap clap for a remark like that. I'd like to hear what the mothers I would like to hear Thank you Mr , thank you I would like to hear thank you for the cheap put-down but would you answer the question ? I would but I would like to hear from some of the women the mothers who have been struggling to raise children with relatively small amounts of money, whilst the husband and they still are has having enough opportunity to go off and make a second marriage, which I don't deny them but they must accept their responsibilities. All the But the point is what are you gonna do when you get ten million shouting, in this country, in this country Hey one at a time, one at a time I want to go to Audrey Wise in a second. seventy per cent of more of fathers whose marriages broke up were not supporting their children. Either at all or Yeah well you should be chasing adequately and that is what the agency was set up to do to correct that situation. Please may I go to Audrey Wise. Audrey Wise shouldn't fathers pay their It's essential that parents are responsible. share? Let's pick out what's been said by our Conservative M Ps. Shouldn't fathers pay their share and not exc er expect the state to provide for their children? That's what's being said. Well yes, fathers should sh er shoulder their responsibility, but don't forget No clap for that . children children are also of concern to all of us they're not just the children of the parents, we depend on those children in our old age, who will nurse us, who will look after us, it's wrong to p behave as if children are simply the personal possession of the parents, personal possession of the parents Responsibility my dear, responsibility responsibility and if they were concerned about the children , the children would get the benefit, the Income Support is removed pound for pound, the women who bring up their children in poverty still bring up their children in poverty. And so hear hear so all they're doing is adding more families living in poverty . Quite right, quite right . Exactly. I believe, I believe in two parent families, there's nobody in my family that's in this situation. But we're lucky. Are they to make er second marriages a crime? They're getting fined more for marrying again er than they would if they'd committed a crime. And not to benefit the first marriage and not to benefit any of the children. Theresa. Can't can't we hear from some of the women in this audience who have benefited from this system? Well let's go to Kate. balanced view? Kate you have benefited haven't you? Yes my h my ex-husband was paying maintenance through a court order and his maintenance payments have increased er enormously under the Child Support Agency, the reason being erm under the old court system all his debts were taken into account. Every time we went to court he would erm take out a new loan, he took out a loan to take his wife to Bermuda, that was taken into account. He took out a life insurance policy for a hundred and twelve pounds three weeks before the last court appearance. I never had any money erm that would help me to get off benefit, I was caught in the benefit trap and now I've been able to get a part time job, my husba ex-husband's paying a reasonable amount and my children are better off. I'm better off. Everyone's saying How's your husband living? And how is your husband how is your husband coping with all that? Well I don't know really his children by his second wife, the ones that I would like to have, this lady would like to have, what happening to them ? Can I say please Why not let the lady answer ? L let her answer. My ex-husband if he can afford holidays in Bermuda I'm sure he can afford children. He's well paid. My children came second. I wish I wish I could afford a holiday in Bermuda. Yes well my husband . Scotland would do me . Let me ask er let me ask Robert over here now Robert, er I see here it tells me that you were separated from Alison, Alison your first wife, er let me get this microphone right, you were separated from your first wife, this is your second wife, you were separated from your first wife er and I understand it was a clean break, it was a clean break with a court settlement? Yes I did. So what's happened now with the C S A? Well the C S A have raised my er maintenance er from sixty seven pounds a month for one child to two hundred and eight pounds a month now. Erm I I I signed over I signed over a number of thousands of pounds erm n nine years ago, eight or nine years ago with regard to the matrimonial home which Alison still lives in with my son Ben today. That suited her at the time, it suited the law courts at the time who were the the adjudicators in the case. It also suited me. I started then from floor level. From nothing. Nothing, absolutely nothing. And I met my wife, present wife three months afterwards and we have worked damned hard to raise a family and a and a good family basis for two lovely children . Now le let me ask Alison And you you people are destroying that situation by taking away from us true family values. you're not only hurting me and my present wife and my two children, you are also hurting my ex-wife and my son. Well let me go to your ex-wife, Alison there was an amicable court settlement? Oh yes. Yes. Why did you change it? I didn't. I didn't. What happened I I had a booklet from the D S S as I get an Income Support benefit You're on Income Support are you ? Yes I am Yes. yes. Her choice, not mine. Her choice, we're nine years' on now. let it go. Erm I was sent a booklet from the D S S asking for various financial details, with the instructions that if I didn't complete the booklet and send it back to them to the D S S, my benefits would stop. So obviously I sent it back pretty quickly. The next I heard was when I had a complete breakdown of Robert and Janet's income erm with the breakdown of how a new settlement was was brought about . Yes. My argument is yes the maintenance has been increased, my Income Support hasn't been increased by a penny And my son has received none of the two hundred and eight nothing pounds that I'm pay . He doesn't even receive any of the sixty seven pounds that I'm paying . So so the money you're paying is not going to your son, it's going to the Treasury is that right ? I'm here, the money you're paying is going to the Treasury, not to your son? Absolutely yes. Theresa just how do we justify that and then I want to hear from a lawyer about this. Theresa. Because you see the Treasury it is who actually tries to see that other people don't have to pay for someone else's responsibilities if they're not justified. If this gentleman, if this gentleman has children which he has by his first wife, in my view and in the view of the great majority of people in this country I don't think it's the majority, you're wrong there . he should accept the responsibility for the cost of raising them. If his first wife cannot afford to live without benefit support from the rest of us, which is what state benefit is, the government has no money, it takes money out of other families who are struggling to bring their children up to give it to you. But your husband can afford to help you some more for the benefit agency . Theresa, let me go that's the whole point Theresa I've got commitments now, I've got commitments Russell, Russell we've had a good run. I want to go across to Susan , how can court decisions be overturned like this? Well they can. The Child Support er Act says that when a Child Support Assessment is carried out it supersedes an existing court order. Now I think that is a basic injustice that I'd like to hear you two address. Mm. What do you say to the fathers, and I have had dozens from up and down the country contacting me, what do you say to the fathers like that chap over there in th in the front row, who has handed over sometimes tens of thousands of pounds, he's done his bit, he's had it rubber stamped by the court, he's gone ahead in good faith and made his his his future, and then the Child Support Agency comes along and just without so much as a by your leave pulls the rug. Don't you think that's a basic injustice ? I can say that er that gentleman has been misled by his lawyers who called the arrangement who called the arrangement a clean break . But nine years ago they didn't know. But don't you think it would be fair Now a spouse can make a clean break agreement with a spouse, Yeah. er and that agreement is to look after the spouse, there is never and there has never been in our law, and there isn't now, a clean break as far as children are concerned. But don't you think it would be fair As children grow up they they become more expensive, as children as children Don't you think it would be fair the costs which the father has to pay rise and our law says that Yeah. there is no clean break as far as children are concerned. But don't you think it would be fair And for anybody to have told that gentleman that it was a clean break agreement No and that would look after children for ever Le let Susan come in is nonsense. I don't see why Excuse me Right well let's not do a filibuster let I le let Susan come in. Don't you think it would You were asking a question Yes I know but you we Susan please. Don't you think it would be fair if the assessment which the Child Support Agency carries out, took into account at the very least the fact that capital settlements have been made. Don't you think that they should at least nod in the direction ? N not at all, because the capital settlement Not at all? is nothing to do with the child. Its a capital settlement, it's an arrangement with the spouse. No Of course it is, it puts a roof over the child's head. not at all. What do you mean not at all of course it does . And if that gentleman wants to go off and have and and marry again and raise more children he should still not leave his What do you mean it's s wha what do you mean not at all? first wife on Income Support for tax payers Aren't there other way some of whom who are not very wealthy people, there are an awful lot of taxpayers who Thanks to you would like some of the benefits It We have a man, we have a man in the audience and they've got no right to do it we have a man in the audience, Gary, where are you Gary, give me a wave, Gary was actually told to default on his mortgage and pay up. Default on his mortgage, he was told that by an officer. That's right. Yeah. Th they told me to default on the mortgage that I'm paying for the property that my wife lives in, because the assessment doesn't take into account that I That's right. already pay four hundred pounds a month to my wife Yes you only g they expect me to pay another three hundred pounds a month out of seven hundred and twenty pounds net income, leaving me with twenty pounds a month to live on . You only get an allowance for the house you're living in. Audrey can I ask you Audrey can I can I just ask you to make this point about this. Why on earth should people here who do not have families pay for people who do have families? Because children are the future for all of us. And it's and it's Well then shouldn't fathers think about it before they produce the children ? You would think you would think from this that Tory MPs were all paragons of virtue. And they're not, they're not But the point is what we're being told is effectively that only the rich can have second marriages, that's what this Child Support Act brings about. Only the rich not the poor, they're increasing poverty and if it was anything to do with children and if it was reasonable, they would take into account things like the water rates, legal aid, cost of access. I can tell you of er of a man who's been told that he should see his children less Mm. because he won't be able to afford the access so the Child Support Officer said see them less . They don't want you to see your children . Theresa are we not are we not missing out with this legislation are we not missing out on a little thing called compassion? You see if you're Let her talk. if you're a member of parliament Let her talk. the kind of people that come to my surgery are genuinely and almost entirely women who are struggling to keep their children That's right because their husbands have made these settlements, often at very emotional times when the women were not really in a position to really make sure they and they come to MPs like me to try and find some way of helping themselves out of the dilemma. Usually what they come for is, can you have my children looked after right in some way so I can go to work. Yes why don't you Theresa, can I ask can I ask can I ask Susan Susan and that strain should not be put on them. Can we talk a little bit about numbers. Mm. How many cases do you as one barrister have to deal with at the moment? I have had dozens of people from up and down the country getting in touch with me. It's just astonishing. And that represents not one family but two family each one represents a number of children, the misery that this is causing absolutely immense. but the misery which stirred this act was also immense and it was quiet and covered up because these women had nowhere to turn to before and they struggled I think it would be I don't think there would be trouble Can we make, can we just please make make a final point. This was really sold to us. This was sold to us, please, this was sold to us on the basis that it was going to bring in the baddies and sort out the baddies, and we'd all live happily ever after. It was sold to us on a false premise. Mm. Because it's not the baddies we're getting at we're getting at a lot of the goodies and we're hurting them. Yes but you're getting at a you're going to get a lot of the baddies who've missed it, you are getting a lot of the baddies now, sh sh lot of the people who are complaining here are people who are complaining that their an assessment has been made which was very much lower than is necessary for bringing up children. This was an act of parliament, you'd never think twenty per cent so from Audrey Wise but it was an act of parliament which had the support the Labour Party as well because the purpose of it is is to help wives to help mothers Yes except you didn't, except parliament didn't see half of the effects of it Thatcher who have been receiving underpayments from their husbands when the courts maintenance agreements . Would you have the courtesy to let him finish. Sorry. And I agree with Theresa, all of my surgery cases in this matter have been from wives saying, I cannot live on the maintenance which my husband is not paying me I don't believe you, I don't believe you. he is breaking the court orders, I don't believe you. the amount of money I'm getting is inadequate, I'm not getting it made up in Income Support, please help. And that's why we brought in the Child Support Agency with the support of the Labour Party. You must be the only MP in the country that hasn't had fathers coming to you . Excuse me. Susan. Fascist. I think, I think the problem with this act in my view is that it would've been one thing to say to people, right from here on in, we're going to do it like this. But where the uproar has come from is from people who have thought that they had got binding court agreements. If you're gonna do something radical and change the way that we're going to look after children you've got to take the people with you. never had binding, never had binding court agreements because mothers could always go back to court and say this fifteen pounds isn't enough. I'm now having to to buy more uniform for my child and so there was never a binding court order . But don't you think that th don't you think that the fact that the father, I'm speaking don't you think that the fact that the father has made a capital settlement But Susan the people that that the people that are coming to you now that he's If we don't go one at a time nobody'll be heard. Now finish what you're saying. Don't you think that the fact that the father has made a capital settlement, that he has sometimes to travel to the other end of the country to see his child, don't you think that should be taken into account. Don't you think children Theresa, briefly, let her answer it Theresa briefly. need more than money? Hard cases do make bad law. But we had the situation where seventy per cent of not just fathers who were unemployed but fathers that were well off were not adequately and in some cases not supporting . That's an enforcement not an assessment. Seventy per cent of all women on their Theresa, the Prime Minister has promised own were not receiving support from their spouses. The Prime Minister has promised a review of this. The Prime Minister has promised a review . Yes, yes. Is it going to make a difference, is it going to change what is essentially not a particularly satisfactory law? Well I think what we want to do is to find out the truth from the hype and the emotion, that is what we want to establish and I'm sure we will correct it if there is any injustice . Can I just ask a question here? But all of the injustice until now has been with women inadequately supported and husbands and the inadequate levels of support and husbands who relied on the state to take over Can I just say something to you? responsibility . Let us see Theresa I'm going to have to stop you and I'm going to have stop you as well Sue and can I say that we're going to need to wait and see what the Prime Minister has to say. Can I thank you most sincerely, it's been a very emotive debate, a lot of people feel very strongly about this and of course they do, it affects their lives, their children, their existence, their relationships. And their pockets . But can I thank you all for taking part, thank you. Right well here are the phone calls, you'll be interested in these, er Ann from Birmingham says, my husband pays nothing but the Child Support Agency didn't want to know. Tony from Ladywood says the M Ps' pay rise should be classed as nonessential spending. Stewart from Tamworth says I'm on the dole and have to pay maintenance, Prince Charles should be doing the same. Mrs from Darlaston says, they are victimizing the men who are working erm need to chase those men who are doing nothing for their families. Paul from Tamworth says er I'm a single man looking after my children and I don't get a penny from my ex-wife. Stewart from Sparbrook says the C S A are men haters who try to get as much as possible out of them. Other ones here, an anonymous call from Birmingham, I have been beaten up weekly by my ex-husband because he's been told to pay more. And finally er a Shropshire caller says, if you have children then you should pay for them, not the state. So a range of views there. But still to come, should men wear wigs? Are they worth it? Can you spot the old Irish jigs a mile off? Should there, should men get hung up about their hair loss? Well here's one man who is very definitely erm upside down about the whole thing, if I can just er tip him over a little bit there, could you, no I'll try that one again will I it's er a a very delicate er gravitational exercise and this man, would you believe it, this man was er one of Britain's greatest ever Olympic athletes, gold medal winner for the U K, David Wilkie in the Montreal Olympic Games, ladies and gentlemen If I can er I can just sneak in he won some gold medal for Scotland as well but we'll just er But of course of course David what on earth are you doing? Well I'm hanging down like this to increase the circulation to my head to hopefully er grow my hair back. Are you raving bonkers or what? Well one could say that yes. B er seriously is it working? It is working, my hair is beginning to grow back and er I'm a happy man . Right well let's er have your friend on who's er David . David, erm now I know your treatment er encompasses a range of things, and hanging upside down is er is is one, one particular treatment here now for curing baldness . Does it work? it does work. It's part of a programme it it takes One one one at a time, one hair at a time even. t two minutes in the morning two minutes in the evening, that all will help grow one's hair back as part of a programme. If you believe that well we'll have er more on that later on. Don't miss it. That is later. But after the break, is the Army doing enough to keep the bully boy out of its ranks. Some horror stories coming up. That's next on Central Weekend. Right. I'll just have a look through what you've been doing Yeah er there's the syllabus I've got. Oh that's I managed to arrange that. that is brilliant that's great. So your objectives that and you should be able to do these. Right. Now what's happened here is we we've done some of each of these there's bits that we've missed out though. But anything that we covered basically I've got in them notes there. Okay so the problem that you were having was differentiation and integration. Mhm. And of those two which do you think is harder? Erm that one's a bit of an odd question to be honest with you because I'm finding because I've had an exam in this, that this is the hardest. What differentiation? Because I've spent more time trying it. Okay. But the thing is I've got an integration exam in a few weeks popping up so I'll be looking more towards that now and end up thinking that's the harder. Right well that's that's fine. Most people myself included find that integration is more difficult than Mhm. differentiation. Which do you find easier multiplication or division? Multiplication. Yeah and addition subtraction? Addition. It's it's the natural thing if you like Mhm. it's the going forward way. Yeah. The other way the inverse is well we got no where did we come from? and you have to back track all the way and work out so integration's very very similar now Mhm. is you started off at school with division Mhm. and you'd never done multiplication you'd find it very hard. Erm if you're familiar with multiplication if you know your tables Yeah. erm assume you do so if I if you know what three fours are Mhm. then when I say to you well how many threes are there in twelve you can immediately spot . four threes'd be twelve or three fours'd be twelve and your not actually working it out I mean Mhm. you're you're going back and saying what would I have done to get Yeah. here? Now integration that's probably the best way to look at it. Mhm. Someone gives you with something to integrate and they say I started off I differentiated something Mhm. and that was what I got. Mhm. Yeah how did I what did I start out from? Okay so although you say you've finished your differentiation exam Yeah. erm I'd still like you to do more work on differentiation. Mhm. Because that's the that's the key once you've got that er you look at some for example if, I say integrate X to the sixth. Mhm. Okay what would make of that? What what were your first tell me your first thoughts on it I don't want the answer right away I want your thoughts on it. X to the sixth. X to the sixth. What's your first thought about that? It's differentiate. To integrate it. Oh to integrate it. Right what are your first thoughts about it? Right now for integration I always raise the power by one and then Right. divide by the new power so Okay you do that straight off. it'd be that. Right and that's it straight off good. Mhm. a lot of people would think, Ah oh X to the sixth well he must have started of with X to the seventh. Well if he had X to the seventh that would have given him seven X to the sixth Mhm. so we better start off with one seventh of that. Erm how about if I say integrate cos X? Ee Er Are you going to write the answer straight down or are you going to tell me what Cos you're thinking about? Well what are you thinking about? I thinking a table how to I am thinking about the table that is Have you ever done anything that would help with this now? Erm we've covered it I've done it before I'm just trying to remember what the answer was. That was the answer think of it that way. Think that you were think that you were differentiating something. So it'd be And when you differentiated it you got cos X. Mhm. Think of it that way. So that was the answer and what was the question? Probably sine X. It would be sine X okay erm so differentiate sine X what do you get? Cos X. Okay so that's it. So integral of sine X with respect to X cos X Mhm. with respect to X is going to be in X. Now Yeah. suppose I give you sine X and say integrate that. Cos X. Okay you think that's your first thought Mhm. that's it's cos X. Okay write down cos X and differentiate it and see what you get. Sine X. Do you get sine X or Oh it's actually minus sine X. Right it's Yeah. minus sine X. Okay so if you started off with cos X differentiated it it would give you minus sine X Mhm. Ah you don't want to finish up with minus sine X you want to finish up with sine X so what are you going to have to start off with? Minus cos X. Right and this is the way most people get into integration. Mhm. there's a lot of backtracking it's not a question of learn every integral there is and you have them all neatly laid out in your head in a Mhm. big table and you say Oh yes it'll be that erm let's say integrate erm cos well say cos squared three X. Right Erm cos cos squared three X yeah okay. ow don't don't try it straight off as an integral what would you sort of have a split your page and work over here sort of playing Mhm. about differentiating thing what sort of thing did you start off with to finish up with a cos squared three X? Well for starters you have to have minus sine for the coses now the square would be erm cubed over three. Ah right well it wouldn't so Well I'm trying to I'm still thinking integration that's all . Don't don't worry yeah don't worry about this erm you're still thinking about integration. Now er there are lots of things going on here. Mhm. People throw all these trig functions at you now that's not a very complicated trig function so far cos squared Mhm. but people chuck all this stuff at you and you, Ooh what's going on? now if you're not very very sure of what you're working with in the first place Mhm. you've got very little chance, so what does cos squared three X mean well let's let's forget about the three X could you tell me what cos squared X means? Erm I'm not really with you. Erm I've never I've never heard about this thing called cos squared X, you explain it to me what do what's it all about? Sounds a load of rubbish to me cos squared X what's it mean? All that is just a function of X whatever number X is X is for. Mm. So Okay I've I've heard of cos X Mhm. but I don't know what this cos squared X is all about what's that how does that tie up with cos X? Erm No. Mm okay . I couldn't say. Okay that's fine erm so you're already even when you're differentiating Mhm. say differentiate cos squared X you're already trying to do something and you don't know what it is Mhm. you're working with. Now this is very common you don't know what you're working with so you can't really be expected even if you get the answer if Mhm. it's someone's given you a list look it's that learn it. That tends to be the er You still can't understand what you're doing and if you Mhm. don't understand it's very hard to learn. It's very hard to retain it lot's of work we've done on this and if you don't remember if you don't understand you don't remember. Mhm. Erm simple as that if I give you a list of telephone numbers you're not likely to remember them for long, you might be able to Mhm. remember them for a day or two but they'd go cos they don't mean anything . Yeah. So let's have a little look at what cos squared X means erm that cos squared three X, cam I have given you X times cos squared three X to integrate do you think that would have been easier or harder? Erm Probably a little bit easier, certainly Mm. easier to explain. Okay let's have a look at cos X erm cos X what does that mean? It's just a a cosine function of whatever figure that is whatever figure X represents. Erm what does X represent when you're taking the cosine of it? It's a point on the X axis of a graph. Erm okay so you're drawing the function and X goes from nought to what?to fourteen Erm point two or what? Do you mean on a co on erm a cosine graph? Well X goes up to three sixty doesn't it. So if you're working in degrees you'd go zero degrees to three sixty degrees. Mhm. Right it would from minus infinity to plus Mm minus yeah. infinity you can measure in degrees or in radians . Mhm. Doesn't matter. So X is an angle. Yeah. Right X is an angle and what's the cosine of the angle so if we we look at it this way erm it's supposed to go through there through the origin. Mhm. And that's the angle X have it in degrees if you like Mhm. and let's say it's erm this particular example we've chosen happens to be sixty degrees. And this is any point X Y this is the Y that's the X how would you find the cosine of X on that? Well you could work it using X and Y. Let's let's get rid of this is this is where a lot of the confusion is Mhm. so let's get rid of some of it and let's make the angle theta. Mhm. Okay and that's the X distance along there Yeah. and that's the Y. So could you find cos theta? Erm now let me get m Write it down if you're not sure . It's going to back this really isn't it. the cosine is erm awkward. Okay which is which is the easiest one of this lot to work out? We're trying to work out which is the hypotenuse which is the ninety degree angle. So the one opposite the ninety is the hypot Is the hypotenuse. Right which is the next easiest one to work out? The adjacent. Mm maybe okay loads of people find that the one opposite the angle we're interested in Mhm. is the that's that's the opposite Mhm. especially if you're using theta for the angle looks a bit like theta. So that's the opposite and this one is the adjacent. Doesn't matter if you remember the adjacent first that's fine. If you can remember Mhm. it doesn't matter how you remember it. So adjacent over hypotenuse. Adjacent is X the hypotenuse is?root X squared plus Y squared. Right that's cos theta. And we plot along here if we plot Y against theta Mhm. we plot this this horrible lot against theta and we get the usual wiggly Yeah. nice little sine wave cos wave. Mhm. It's a number sine or cos Yeah. it's a ratio of two lengths you can measure them in centimetres miles whatever you like but it'll Mhm. still come down to a a ratio that has no units it's just a a number. That's what cos is now what does that's cos X cos theta cos Mhm. Z whatever you like. Yeah. What would cos squared Z what does that mean? What's the notation in other words? It's that ratio Mm. squared. Right. What's that The ratio times itself. Right what is the ratio? The ratio is cos Z. Mhm. That's that's the ratio. Yeah. That's the ratio squared. Mhm. same thing but And that's what it means. Now people start getting very involved with this cos squared and integrating it to being cos cubed. Mhm. Right there's nothing nothing to do with that at all. We we just have this weird notation that we write it like this and we say it like that cos squared Z what we mean Mhm. is cos Z squared. Mhm. But if you say that especially when you say it quickly it's starting to sound a bit like cos Z squared. Mhm. Right. Which is a different thing again. Which is nothing at all to do with that. Yeah. It's not that. Cos that'd just be you'd figure for Z squared as opposed to the whole lot . Right and then take the cos of it but this Yeah. is take the cos and then square the answer the answer you get. Mhm. So part of trig functions are probably what give most people more trouble that anything else on differentiation and Mhm. integration. Part of it is not really it it's being a bit out of touch with what you're doing. It doesn't sound real. It's a bit like if you like the difference between working with nice constants nice numbers if I'm saying Mhm. what's erm eighteen times three, yeah I can work that out I might Yeah. not know it immediately but if I say, Well what's X plus seven times Y minus five or it's only the same it's exactly the same rules Mhm. as you'd use for your three times eighteen Yeah. but the concepts aren't familiar and you're starting to feel a little bit sort of not quite sure what you can do with them and what you can't Mhm. the numbers you've had them since you were about this big Yeah. you've grown up with them you know what you can do with numbers Mhm. you can play with them you're you're quite happy, but these other strange objects you don't really know what the rules are. Well they're all numbers they all follow the same rules Mhm. they all behave the same way. And then you move on to functions and they're diff you're quite happy with Y equals X squared three X squared plus two you think Yeah. I can do that no problem. Then they start throwing in things like Y plus cos X ooh and cos X cos squared X. You don't even know what it means. Mhm. So if you're not happy with the the basic objects that you're playing around with, you you've immediately lost most of your confidence Mhm. you don't know what you're doing. You know that you don't know what you're doing. Yeah. Someone's telling you the answers and you're thinking, Well okay it must be right knows what he's doing he's a teacher right okay I'll put it down. But if you know what you're doing Mhm. then you can take it on you can start understanding you can start building up your knowledge base. like Mhm. putting things into little pigeon holes saying, Oh that's just like I did with that other problem. Er I'd use that bit here. Until you get that breakthrough then everything's a one off. Every Mm. problem you do is, Er start right Mm. from scratch I don't know whether I'm allowed to do that, I think I can possibly get away with this. Erm so your confidence goes, your speed at working through it goes, you might find you're going back and doing it again when it was right then first time. Mhm. So you need to know the objects you're dealing with, then differentiate them, then when you've differentiated them when you've differentiated them you can work back and you think, Ah I know how I got that. So let's look at now you've been doing I noticed today you'd been doing differentiating products. Yeah? Mhm. And you've done quotients as well presumably. Yeah. Yeah. Now you said that if I gave you X cos squared three X it might be a bit easier to integrate. Mm. Why did you say that? It's correct. Because what I saw there was that as a single function as a single function. Mm. Now I'm not entirely positive if I'm right but I think that would be easier to do because you could then alter that round to and then you'd have your three X as a separate thing. your times in there. Yeah. What would you do then ? X to the power of one. What would do then? Er does that mean you've integrated? I'm about I'm midway through it. You you so you have done some part of the integration? Yeah. Ah no. Now have you learnt the formula for integrating a product?some people do . Probably. Oh I I don't usually recommend it some people do and find it easier that way I I would rather they just stuck with the the formula for differentiating a product and Mhm. differentiating a quotient and then recognizing the picture. So that you can work backwards. Let's let's go away from trig functions for a bit . Mhm. Okay we'll find out some general applications and then see if we can bring the trig functions back into them. Mm. okay. So let's say three X to the power seventeen. Mm that's a bit let's make it more awkward. Right three X to the power seventeen plus X squared all to the power five. Right. Now could you differentiate that? What's your fir just tell me tell me I'm more interested in sort what you're thinking about it what you're feeling about it er what you're thinking of trying and not trying than than the answer you get. So what are you thinking about that? That's what I'm thinking. Okay. That can you understand where I'm going with that. Oh I can understand what you why you're thinking that yeah. Now that's the way that we've been shown to do Okay. things along those lines. So what would your an let's let's pick a simpler one and see what your answer is to this. Erm okay we've got Y equals that erm follow that one through and actually differentiate it. Okay we'll make it even even more less messy looking and have Y equals Right. How would you do that? I'm trying to think of it handled the the squared on the outside. Mm. I'm thinking that it may be a function of a function. Right good. It could possibly be that . I mean it definitely is isn't it. The way you test that is, Ooh this looks a bit awkward, could I do Ooh yeah I could that. Mhm. I could do Y equals X squared I could do Y equals U squared. That's what I was about to head for. Okay so Change U for four X Right so U in that one right. You carry on from there. that's great yeah that's excellent. Okay on this one erm Mhm. . Now back to integration. Mhm. If I gave you this to integrate, something like four X cubed minus X two times four X cubed minus X times Mhm. twelve X squared. What sort of what would you to say about it? Again it's a function of a function. Okay so it it was it was something you differentiated Mhm. and you treated it as a function of a function. And when you treated it as a function of a function you get that that thing inside there was the function Mhm. and what's this what's this bit this twelve Mhm. X squared that it's multiplied by? That's another function. It's another of X. Yeah that's a partic it's a very particular tie up between that function and this one isn't there? Which is what? It's basically that. Right so the function you've got in brackets when you differentiate it it Mhm. gives you this thing you're multing i multiplying it by. Mhm. So what we've got here is we've got the integral of some function of X Mhm. times F dash are you happy with F dash notation ? Yeah yeah fine. Times the differential of that function. As soon Mhm. as you see that you know it's Th this all all integration is that's the answer what was the question. You think this is Yeah. where we finished up now where did we start from? Well to finish up with something like that as you your first guess which is almost certainly correct on this one is well Mhm. that came from someone doing this sort of thing. Yeah. Okay? And so you could plough that straight back in Yeah right. So you'd say well we must have let let's say that I wasn't being that helpful Mhm. and I said would you integrate so it didn't stand out sort of too obviously four X cubed minus X times X squared. So oh sorry that should be minus one because I taking your word for this one here. Yeah. Erm that's a minus one. Erm Oh of course yeah it's just the figures that disappear. That's right. Er yeah I hadn't finished off this that's probably what the problem was. Right that's better. Okay? No I would've forgotten that anyway. Okay so we'll let U be this thing that's raised to a power. Mhm. U equals four X cubed minus X X differentiate it with respect to X twelve X cubed minus four Mhm. so that gives us this and so if I said erm and that's a all right we'll leave that as twelve X squared minus one. Put the twelve in there. write it out again. So if I said, Integrate four X cubed minus X Mhm. times erm twelve X squared minus one. look at that the the giveaway what's the giveaway? That this has got some chance of being F dash That times that is that. Right. Differentiate this Mhm. differentiate that so the big the first thing to go for is the power is one less and then Yeah. this looks a little bit suspicious where did Mhm. it come from, Ah three fours are twelve X to the three minus the power right oh and this one fits too very nicely. Great so that that's F dash of X. So we started off with something like now we're not we we haven't got there yet Mhm. but we've we've broken the back of it. Yeah. we're just about there. What have we got here? Let's try a four X cubed minus X and Mhm. differentiate it and what do we get? We get this. Yeah. Right so we differentiate four X cubed minus X we get how does it tie up with what we've got there? We get two times four X cubed minus X times twelve X squared minus one Well that's a shame we should be getting we should get twice it. Mm. So we didn't actually start off with this Mm. to finish up with that answer did we what Mm. did we start off with? If we'd have started off with this it would have given us twice what we got. Yeah. So what must we have started out with . We started off with that one squared the whole lot squared that was squared sorry that was to make it the function of a function . that was squared yeah. Sorry that was squared yeah so the differential of that would've given us twice er would have given us twice that . Oh of course. But we didn't finish up with twice we No. just finished up with four X cubed minus X times its differential so what must we have started off we differentiated something and it was very very close to this very Mhm. similar. And this time it didn't give us two X it just gave us one times this one times that one. What what's missing from this let's let's look at it this way erm differentiate erm no let's go straight for the integral integrate four X squared. Four X squared. Yeah. That's erm Make it make it twelve X just to be awkward twelve X. It's a little it's also being a bit helpful. Okay so if we'd have started off I mean we can just take the constant straight out. Mhm. Right away. Twelve times integral of X squared D X well if we'd have started off with X squared we'd could have we would have if we've started off with X cubed we would have finished up with three X cubed Mhm. So we only we only need to start off with a third of that. Now if we'd have started off four X cubed minus X all squared we would have two times this lot but we didn't we just got once this so we must have started off this is only a coefficient only a a factor. Yeah. What must we have started off with here to finish up with with that? It's very s it's similar I'm just working back Same sort of thing that we were doing here. If I'd have said, Integrate X cubed. Mhm. you'd think well he must have Integrate X squared. you'd say, Well he must have started off with X cubed . With X cubed. That would have given three X squared Well that's Mhm. no good it's three times too much so he must have started off with X cubed over three and that would've given us one third of three X squared So here it's something very like that I finished up with I've if I'd started off with that I would have finished up with twice what Mhm. I've actually got here. Now the other thing about an integral really when it boils down to it it's only a number or a function or a sine or a cos it comes down to you these are just numbers you're playing with erm You'd have to take that from a half. You'd have to take a half of it. Mm. Okay? Take a half of it. So if we only had started off with a half of it Mm you'd end up with that. What would we get? We've got Y equals a half of this thing four X cubed minus X squared, then D Y by D X would come to a half of two times four X cubed minus No it's not it's X times times its differential. Mhm. Right So this is what some one gave us Mhm. they didn't express it as a half of twice they just cancelled it through Yeah they just cancelled it down. once and we said, Ah well we can see the sort of thing we should be working it sh Yeah. it should've been something like this. Mhm. It should have been that thing squared and now we then having worked it out that far, right we must have had four X cubed minus X in brackets Yeah. all that squared I don't know I don't know what the coefficient was I don't really Mhm. care because I'm going to differentiate it now because differentiating is a lot easier than integrating. So I'll differentiate it find out what that gives, Oh well that gives twice it well I don't want twice it so I'll Mhm. start off with half of it. If this had given eighteen times it then you would have started off with one eighteenth. Whatever it was. Er are you fairly happy with that? Yeah yeah I said that was going we'll now we'll now have a we'll do one more of those and then we'll apply it to the wonderful cos sine and sec squared and all sorts of wonderful things like that. I'll just go and make that coffee That sounds like an excellent idea. How many sugars? No sugar no sugar thanks okey-doke. So how are you getting on with the rest of your course? Erm Can I just look through this? Yeah yeah go on. Thanks. Erm I did first science exam a little while ago Yeah. erm that went about as well as the first maths one. But I have done a maths erm another science exam sorry Yeah. about a week ago and from the looks of things I've passed it quite successfully. Good So I've picked up on one. Right. Erm. So how many subjects have you got? About nine About nine okay and they're all spread out little bits various levels and Yeah that's okay. Which one do you feel most happy with most confident? Erm anything except the maths and science . Okay. To be perfectly honest with you because they're the shakiest ones . Well what are the what are the others then that you're doing that you're happy with? Just take a look got me little list knocking round. It's it's just the technology and things really it's erm dealing with cars electrical studies er it's how There we are. Okay. There's me timetable it's got the different subjects on it. Right which which campus are you on? Er . Right. Down by Prom. Right I know it well. Okay erm projects science Right now what's your what are you doing on your science? Thanks very much. Erm science at the moment we've just covered erm things like angular momentum erm it just tends to be stuff like that we've done simple harmonic motion er Mm are you happy with that? Oh yeah yeah no problems at all with it. Good. Sailed through that . Excellent excellent excellent, cos that's you know that's quite a lot of maths in that and you get these sines and coses and omega T omega T and That's it this is it it's something that's unusual because with stuff like I'll I can see what I'm aiming for. Right. And so I'm bi I'm a no problems with it at all. Good good erm just about everyone learns things practically Mm. It's not you you can't just have an abstract theory that's not tied Yeah. into anything it must come from something. I don't know if you saw a programme a while ago about carbon sixty, a new form of carbon that some professors in America discovered . I s I heard something about somebody was talking to me about it a little while ago. I can't remember what it was like Well three sort of top professors in America they Mhm. they made this big discovery they all went back to their hotel rooms. Mhm. The next morning when they got together everyone had got a model. Mm. One had made one gluing bits of straw together another one had used something else but they'd Mhm. all got a physical model. Yeah. So they were playing with each others models, No that bit has to go there Mm. because of this and that would happ They were making it real concrete something Mhm. you can pick up play with like a bit of Lego Yeah. erm and then you understand. If I say erm you know can I can I have a look at your pen it usually Mhm. means pick it and feel the weight of it and Yeah. see how it works. Not give me a an abstract technical description of it Yeah. or have a quick glance but getting to understand it. Now you're obviously I mean most people are but you can obviously understand better think better if they're more practical Very much so. everyone can. Mhm. Everyone is like no matter how sort of academic they pretend to be Yeah. they always understand things much better if it's it's something concrete so if you've got simple harmonic motion and you can relate it to something physical Mm you're with it. So how are we going to relate this differentiation and integration to something physical? Erm let's go back to differentiation, what does is mean why the why the big deal you know why do we make such a fuss about, Hey wouldn't it be nice to integrate things. Mhm. Why? You know why do we go to this trouble? We need to integrate to find out the gradient at a certain point To on a curve differentiate yeah Well that's to to find the gradient. Yeah. We differentiate to find the gradient. Mhm. We integrate We integrate from the gradient We yeah integrate for other reasons like you're doing moment of inertia and Mhm. things like that. Erm we're finding basically area under a curve or volume of revolution Yeah. integrating but as you say differentiate find the gradient. Mhm. How steep is that hill? I don't know what hill do you know perhaps you know erm Road or something like that how Yeah I know where you mean. how steep is that hill? Well it's erm one in fifty Mhm. What does that mean? Well for every for every fifty you go along horizontally Yeah you go one up. you go up one. Er that's one way of expressing its Mhm. gradient. Another way would be to tell me what the angle is from Mhm. the horizontal. And you'd find that the tan of that angle Mhm. is the other way of expressing the gradient. Up so many along so many . Yeah. Yeah? So that's that's what gradient is erm that's thinking of something very solid like a hill. Mhm. How does rate of change D Y by D X or D S by D T Mhm. tie up with things like velocity? Well yo you still getting a ratio you're getting a ratio of distance and erm time. Okay so in a in a fixed time You go so far. you go so far. If you're going further in a set over a a set Mhm. time then you're going faster. You're going faster. If you're not going as far you're going slower and then you take that up a level all right Mhm. a level of e abstraction if you like your gradient you've got so you you're very happy with this yeah? Yeah. So that's time going along along there. Mhm. And that's distance That's distance. there or it's displacement . And as time goes on you find he's gone further and further away. Mhm. And it's a nice straight line so the gradient is constant. The gradient Mhm. the D S by D T Mhm. the velocity velocity is constant. Mhm. Then that that that sort of makes sense You know Yeah. that's practical and you can you can get your head round it. Mhm. Then they take it sort of up a level Yeah. if you like there's time going along there. Now what we're plotting up here is D S by D T well we don't call it that it's a bit confusing call it velocity. We're plotting velocity Mhm. up there and we've got say another straight line here erm this is a straight line which means that D V by D T is How is velocity changing if constant? Yeah. Okay erm now you you've used to the equations of motion for a constant acceleration are you? Erm. V squared equals U squared plus two A S and We've come across them yeah You've come across them okay. You can derive all those Mhm. starting from the acceleration. Acceleration's a constant Yeah. integrate it it gives you the velocity. Integrate it again it gives you the distance you integrate with respect to time. Mhm. Each time you do it. So this is why we get interested in differentiation. Erm I've done stuff like this actually I remember doing exactly them sort of questions. Right so the more you can spot the tie up and say well this isn't something I'm going to take this off. This isn't something totally artificial Yeah. It it has got a real purpose and it does tie up very well with erm velocity and Here we are there it is. Doing velocity is a certain time Mhm. Velocity at time zero acceleration at a Mhm. certain time. Acceleration at Mhm. time zero. Right. Okay. So I've covered bits and pieces like that. So how about you you've you've just had have a quick glance at that. Mhm. Okay. So if I put something like this erm okay? Mhm. Could you could you give me an expression for if that's the acceleration Mhm. Okay. The velocity would be what? Your velocity would now be D S by D T. Right and your distance?would just be? S. Mhm. Right I don't know what I don't know I didn't have the function a formula Yeah. to let me work this out what the distance was as time went on. And I didn't have a formula to work out what the velocity was all I did ha know was the acceleration was a constant. Yeah. derive these equations by what what what trick? Well the easiest way would be to integrate that. Right okay so there we are a horrible looking thing to integrate. Yeah. K some constant where where where do I start here? Well talk about it. Right. Well it's a constant value and I know that it's to the power of one. Whoa whoa whoa whoa hang on hang on hang on hang on right think about what you just said it's a constant Mm. Right now I'm asking you to integrate it which is work backwards. The answer was a constant, now what did I differentiate? Think in terms of X if you like. The answer was a constant what did I differentiate? It'd need to be something like K X. K X right okay. So right K X something like K X. Now is it only K X that could have given me that? If I differentiate K X I'll get K Mhm. What about if I had K X plus three? That'd do. Mhm so That'd be the same. Right so is erm Y or that's the velocity Mhm. right velocity up there and T along here. We're integrating with respect to T so it's going to be K it's not going to be K X it's K K T. Right okay so if we differentiate K T with respect to T we get K. Mhm. If we differentiated So there's there's velocity equals K T it's supposed to be Yeah. Velocity equals K T plus Plus something yeah. Velocity equals K T minus four. It makes no odds because the gradient's still the same. So plus any constant Yeah. Okay. Right well that's found the velocity now can you find the distance? What would you do to find the distance? The same again. Okay integrate again. Now this is where it gets interesting. Erm don't forget when they're added when they're added you can do them one bit at a time. Mm. Now if they're multiplied or divided then you can't say, Oh well I'll just take this bit and do that and then I'll come back for the other one. You've got to take the whole lot as a unit. And you do something pretty clever with it usually but if they're just added, one bit at a time. Well how did how did you manage to get a C you had something here and you differentiated it It'd need to be like C X. So and you were working the variable we were working with is not X but T. not T so Okay so that's C T. Now don't forget as we did here it's not just Mhm. C T that could give us C C T plus any other form of constant Erm. N. N okay right so that's sorted that bit out now where did we get a K T from? It was that Okay but we're we're we're working up from You this way we started I started here I wrote in here S equals some function of T. Mhm. Right? And differentiated it and it gave me K T well forget about the K it's only a number it's only Mhm. a constant. I had something here I differentiated it and it gave me T so what what was it? Another number. Er let's go back to there Hang on erm let's g let's go to the X's Let me think. Let's take these two out to the X's and just look at that that bit there. I had something we'll forget about that Mhm. cos we've done that sorted Yeah. that out. I had Y equals something don't know what we had Mhm. and I differentiated it and it gave me D Y by D X equals X. Okay so what did I have here so that when I differentiated I got X? You'd need you need to have that to the power of something. Yep okay and what power? Erm one. Try try this one I had Y equals something Mhm. and I brought it this way round the normal way that we go Mm. and I found D Y by D X and I found that it came to erm X squared. Mhm. What did I start with there so that when I differentiated it I got X squared. A third X cubed. Right okay if it was X cubed that would have given me three times too much Mhm. so it must have been a third X cubed Third Brilliant okay now here I started off with something I don't know what it was but I know that when I differentiated it I finished up with X Ah now so what did I start with? Right to do that mm you've just done it for there. Yeah. Instantly right away bang you did that. Now is it throwing you because this is an X and it doesn't look like It doesn't have a power at all. it is X to the one power of one. okay. So what did I start with? Half X squared. Right. Okay? Mhm. Half X squared. So if I started off with a half X squared and I differentiated it I would get two times a half times X A half it cancels. cancels out just X. Right we're not working with X We're working with T I have something and I differ forget about the K cos it's only a like a three times or a fives times Mhm. it's only a coefficient we can adjust that later. I had some function of T and I finished up with T what did I start with? Ah now I see how it's tying in. Right. Yeah that's exactly the same as what you're I was trying to do before so it'd be the equivalent of that. Right which would be? Yeah I see how that's going now. Okay. Mhm. So I finished up with T to the one, what did I start up with? You started off with say half T squared. T squared yeah. So it's K times a half T squared. Mhm. Right so we've got our equation now S is equal to a half some constant let's call it G Mhm. T squared plus C T plus some other constant erm say C one T plus C two. You recognize that from your equations of motion? Now we got there just by starting off from D two S D T squared equals K. Mm. So it's a very inconve if someone said to to you come up er okay this you put initial values in Mhm. erm to make some of these terms disappear if you like to make Yeah. some of your constants go but your important thing that comes out is this Is the half G T half G T squared plus some constant times time normally your the the G will be a negative half A T squared but someone had said come up with that equation, and you've said well what are you going to give me to go on well the acceleration's constant . And they've given me that. You say, Oh yeah so what that doesn't help at all. Yeah. And it it doesn't without integration you just Mhm. you just give up. Yeah. As people have mathematicians have done for centuries. They've said well I can't make head or tail of it. Mhm. So how did you feel when you first did fractions? Can you remember? Oh God that's going back a bit. Mhm but how did you feel? Erm confused as hell until somebody told me about having a pie . Right until you eventually You're cutting it up into bits. Right until you eventually got something physical to relate it to. Yeah. How did you feel about negative numbers when you first met them?can't remember . I wasn't too bad with them as far as I can remember I was fairly okay . have a look have a look see how many cars are outside. Minus fifteen. Yeah. Definitely yes I agree with you. No I remember from what I can remember anyway when I first started using negative numbers it was on a graph. Mm really? that's Started off with a graph If it's if it's below the table we'll say it's it's minus two centimetres you know . Yeah. If it's below sea-level we'll just say that if it's you owe me rather I owe you Mhm. it's below zero on a It it's just a little trick there's no such thing as minus three. It's just another way of putting it that's all. It's it just means we go like we got mixed up with our zero and we should have started lower down but we're not going to change it now. Mm. That's what minus three means it does it's not real. What about erm the square root of minus one then? The square root of minus one oh God. Some number you multiply it by itself and it comes to minus one. Have you done complex numbers? Erm probably somewhere along the road. Right. Erm So when you first mean these things they're weird Mm. erm now professional mathematicians people who did nothing but that the whole the community used to bring them Mhm. their food and support them they say around all day having very weird discussions about Mhm. sort of funny little numbers. They spent thousands of years before they could understand fractions Mhm. or negative numbers. Yeah. Right just fractions or negative numbers forget about integration Mhm. integrating cos squared just to get to that stage they had thousands of years they were full time professionals did nothing else but it. You are expected you know Yeah. you're given about four or five years to play with one and one makes two, Yes he's doing Mhm. very well he can count to twenty. all of a sudden in the next couple of years you've got to go through thousands of years of evolution. That mathematicians had a very very hard time and they got a lot of things wrong they went off down the wrong track for hundreds of years before Mhm. people put them right. So it's not obvious and it's not natural unless as you said fractions cut up your pie. Yeah. Right then you know where you are I always I always have a pie with me just in case I get hungry. Because there are so many people who have trouble with fractions Mhm. adults particularly they're alright with a quarter and a half but after that you know After that it gets confusing yeah. So relate it to something like that and it's real now if we can relate this to something that you are happy with and you understand it will become real for you Mhm. and you'll know what you're doing. At the moment there's so much new stuff being shoved in. If I'm Mm. explaining this to you in Chinese you know you don't understand the words No no I'm using. If I'm explaining it to you in terms of cos squared and idea what cos squared is I'll have a guess then it's not explaining. Mhm. You're you're getting you know Confused terms even more confused. Explaining it in terms of something you don't understand. Yeah. You know if if if for example you didn't understand anything about engines Mhm. and erm someone was trying to explain simple harmonic motion They start piston going up and down inside an engine and you think well what what what's a what's a piston ? That's exactly what we done. What's an engine? And if you don't know that Yeah. well it's just useless trying to You've had it yeah . explain it like that okay? Mhm. So it's trying to get this tied down and get its limits clearly defined so you know what you're talking you know exactly Yeah. what you're talking about. Erm somebody comes in some prat comes in to your garage and he's telling Mhm. you about erm well of course erm I've got this diesel car and it's exactly the same principle as a petrol engine and I just put petrol in it. Erm I have a fit yeah. hang on hang on now if you're talking to a mathematician and you're sort of saying cos squared is well erm you know if I integrate that ah I'm going to get cos so if erm well I'll just change that there and I'll fiddle Mm. fiddle I'll just have a bit of a fiddle well perhaps I'll try running it on lead free petrol and see if that Yeah works better. Erm it's similar yes I mean Mm. there is a there are more similarities between a petrol engine and a diesel engine than there are differences really. Yeah there are very true . a lot of similarities but Mhm. if you try try and treat one as the other you're gonna come very unstuck It doesn't yeah Yeah erm like say mixing up your low tension and your high tension circuit with your electrics erm so or electricity isn't it you know. Not going to make a lot of difference surely. Erm more similarities than differences but the Mhm. differences are important enough to make Yeah. th make it Make it a definite similarity. totally catastrophic if you start trying to treat one as the other and this is Mhm. why you know okay you're happy with cars you're happy Mm. with mechanics with electrics and you you wouldn't dream of trying to say well these two are the same. Yeah, So you've got to learn now when you can use the similarities and Mhm. when you have to watch out for the differences Yeah. this sort of stuff because that's where most of the traps are what happens to everyone who tries fractions? What's a half plus a third? that's no problem add the top two add the bottom it's going to be two fifths it's obvious isn't it. Well okay it might be obvious but it doesn't give you the right answer. So Yeah. I mean it's obvious that you can put petrol in a diesel engine and diesel in a petrol engine Mm. It might be obvious it might Won't do you any good like but it might be obvious but it's not a good idea yeah. So it's find out what works and what doesn't so that's integration at work if you like why it's useful you've just done simple harmonic motion. Mhm. Right now this time I'm not telling you that the acceleration for some we won't bother writing it like that right we'll write it this way. D two S D T squared Mhm. right is equal to minus K X. Minus K is it minus K X? Mhm. So acceleration is always working the opposite way to whichever way you're measuring X and trying to pull it back. That's that's it Yeah mhm. I'm with you. Okay that's your equation for simple harmonic motion. Mm. Now have you seen it like that? Never . Oh. I have never seen it like that . Well that's that's erm have you heard a disht a definition of simple harmonic motion? Give me a definition if you can remember one. I couldn't if you've got a book handy or notes handy it'd be worth looking it up. Erm see if I can remember what on earth I did with the damn thing. Don't worry don't worry if you can't. I think it's in here. I'm I'm I'm interested in you you you doing more of the work than me if we can. I'm with you. I'm trying to remember where on earth it was. I know for certain it's in here somewhere. Mhm. Erm Don't don't Now we're close here. Oh good. There's another =nother thing about any course but particularly this one where there's sort of lots of subjects and a bit of overlap it is difficult to get a good system for organizing your notes but it is essential. Okay well Er basically this one drags. What about this bit right at the start? Mhm. Just read that bit. It's it moves Acceleration is always it moves with S H M when its acceleration is directed towards a fixed point in its path Yeah. and is proportional to its distance from this point. Okay that's it. Mhm. That's the definition of S H M. Mhm. That's another way of writing it. Acceleration right Yeah. is proportional to equals K Mhm. the distance from a point Mhm. and always works the opposite way. Mm. Okay so just from that definition of simple harmonic motion we've got acceleration equal to minus K X. Yeah. D two S D T squared equals minus K X. Now it's your turn. What are we going to do with that? Oh I'm not interested in its acceleration I want to find out its speed. Its velocity at any point in time. So what do we do? Okay. Need to take that down to D Right. D S by D T. Yeah. Right then. Now I differentiated something forget about the K you can Mhm. put the K down right away so we'll keep that there. Now we're only bothered about the X. I differentiated something and I finished up with X what did I start from? What would you differentiate that would give you X? Erm X squared. Okay but that will give us too much So half X squared. Right so K times a half times X squared. Right that's the velocity at any point. Now S. Okay now the other thing is C. Right good. There's a whole family of equations that could have been differentiated to give that we don't know what C is. But we always fiddle the C by choosing suitable starting conditions suitable initial conditions okay. Right then What I'll do is I'll split it up again. Make life easier. the same as the other before. Mm. Leaves me with this. Okay and your half K you can leave your half K out. You keep that sort of to one side. Wouldn't that need to be to the power of X? Er not to the power of X sorry erm times X? Er don't quite follow well I don't I don't see why you want it to be? I'm trying to see where Okay let's have a look at this. We've got let's take let's take the minus K out completely. Mhm. We can the the constant is no problem we can always if we've got ten times it five times it minus point six times it Mhm. no problem we just multiply that one or divide Mhm. okay. So the problem we've got here is that we've X squared D Y by D X equals X squared so somewhere up here we had Y equals what? And we differentiated it and we got D Y by D X is X squared. So what did we start with? No. X? We we er okay Mm. now there's another big thing that comes into it integration involves Mhm. flipping backwards and forwards Mhm. between differentiating and integrating and erm integrating and differentiating and it's ver one of the most common faults is to forget which way you're going. Mm. Instead of going there and back sort of go go back and back again. Yeah. Or sort of there and further on. So what are we doing? right this is why it's a good ides to draw a line down the side and think well I'll just play about over here till I Mhm. know what I want and then I'll come back to what I was doing. So here trying to find out what happens who did who differentiated what sort of thing to get this X squared. Mhm. Well what happened? Someone had something some function of X here they differentiated it and it gave them X squared no what did they differentiate? A third X cubed. Right so they had a third X cubed or X cubed over three . X cubed over three yeah. A third X cubed might be a a nicer way to write cos we can keep all our constants together So it was the minus K times the half times A third X cubed. a third and then the X cubed. Mhm. And these are just sort of piling up together well they they can all be if we choose it right we can make it usually make it one. Make it one figure yeah With a bit of with a bit of fiddling. Erm okay it doesn't look like anything like what you've got here Mhm. because you're doing it in a very different coordinate system which is Mhm. a a neater way to do it because we want this sine omega T. Erm we want the tie up we want this two pi what is how does two pi come into it? Two pi? Yeah. That's erm How do you get how do you get two pi into it? changing degrees to radians is all Right. Yeah basically Okay right. Not its Revs or even even yeah revs no in rads basically. Yeah yeah revs to rads. Erm degrees don't come into it. They're a a very artificial unit very handy. Mm. They're very artificial whereas a radian is a more natural unit. Yeah. But it keeps bringing this two pi in because two pi is the ratio of all the way round to straight across. Yeah I know. It keeps coming in. Okay erm does that help to show what integration is about what you're doing? It does because I've only ever done that by differentiating from S Right. and I've got to there and then to there and Mm. and that's it basically that's the Okay. way I've ever known it so it is So if you think of those three stages then Mhm. I mean there is erm we've s we've stopped there let's go working from this way S is that that's that that's that . Mhm. Acceleration is that. Mhm. Okay er acceleration equals K X what's the rate of change of acceleration? If we differentiate acceleration with respect to time. to time yeah. What do we get when you differentiate that? Ooh erm Could you differentiate three X? Yeah. What would you get? Erm three X to the power of one. Uh uh okay go on. Now three. Right so could you differentiate minus K X the coefficient is not three this time it's minus K . X it's minus K. So so it's just the minus K. Minus K. So what's how is the acceleration changing with respect to time, how's the acceleration changing as time goes on? It's the same as the constant. It's a a constant and it's negative. Oh what do you mean what do you mean it's a negative? Well you're measuring it in the opposite direction to the way you're measuring X. Mhm. So if we're going over that way Mhm. the acceleration is always negative which means s It's being measured as a deceleration the opposite way and it's K it's sort of the rate at which the exc It's a constant deceleration. The rate of change of acceleration is a constant. In other words the acceleration itself is not changing. Mhm. So you keep you could keep on going until you got a constant and then . Now I don't know if you think this has been useful Yeah yeah. but until it's it's the same with any subject you know until you know what you're doing until you can tie it down to something physical and until you can understand I mean you always understand by similarities Mhm. and then you you oversimplify and then you refine it and you concentrate on the differences. I mean it is good to see the similarities between petrol and diesel first. Mhm. They're both engines you stick em in a Yeah. car it'll do either one of them I don't care whether you've got a diesel engine or a petrol engine as long as it'll get me from A to B. Mhm. Okay yeah and then you start concentrating on the differences. you have got one of these don't put the wrong type of stuff in. Erm that's the way everyone's brain works no matter how they think it does. Mhm. A very young kid goes out for a walk with his parents he's only ever seen cats and dogs before they go Mhm. out and they see the big this big cow in a field he says, Ooh Mhm. look at that big dog. Yeah. And the parent says, Yes that's right yeah. I mean that's all he knows cat Mhm. and dog. Well it's he's being very intelligent cos it's much too big to be a cat. Yeah. And the only big things you get are dogs. Mm. Well it's a funny looking dog with horns on. Mm. Oh yeah a funny looking dog with horns on like that and others and everything standing in the middle of the field you call those funny sort of dogs, cows. Mm. We have a separate category for them. Mhm. But that is the way you learn, by oversimplifying over Yeah. overgeneralizing. Now if you Get the basics the rest will follow through. can understand that you can do the rest on your own Mhm. you can do it because as you read through your notes as someone's talking to you in the lecture you will be saying, Yeah of course of course. Mm. Rather than, What the hell is he talking about? That's the yeah And you'll be and you'd be thinking, Ah I can see where he's going now yeah I can see what's coming up next he's going to now he's he's integrated once Mhm. he's going to go integrate again he's going to find out what you know if you're working one way he's going to find out what the distance is. Mhm. Erm or he's going to find out what the acceleration is. Tying it up to something real. Now X's and Y's Yeah. thetas omega T doesn't matter it's all the same thing Mhm. The maths that you do ties up in some way with usually ties up with reality there's some reason for it. They Yeah. don't always tell you at the time they just say learn that. Yeah. Learn that. Erm why would I need to use the square root of minus one? Well it's brilliant at solving problems in electrical theory. Mm. Erm what is it? Oh don't know any more than we know what minus one is, how Mhm. find the square root of minus one we don't even understand minus one. Yeah. So we just say it's it does something. Mhm. It's an operator that say It's you use it rotates a vector so that it's pointing in completely the opposite Mhm. well in minus one points a vector in completely Yeah. the opposite way. Mhm. Now the square root of minus one rotates it to ninety degrees Ninety degrees. and again rotates it through another so square root of minus one times the square root of minus one is the same effect as multiplying by minus one. Mhm. It's a trick but it helps it took all the I never though of that one. mathematicians a long time but it does help. Erm you don't have to exactly understand the tools that you're using and how they work but Mhm. you do have to understand their limitations . How to use them. Right you Mhm. don't you might not know what happens when you press the accelerator on Mm. a car Yeah. you might not know what happens when you waggle this stick about and press your left foot up and down. Mhm. But if don't do it properly Yeah. you know you finish up with a wrecked a wrecked gearbox or or or what's more likely to happen on this sort of thing Mhm. You're too scared about changing gear so you go all the way from here to Glasgow in first. Yeah. Right when you could be going up and down the gears and using whatever is appropriate Mhm. for what you're doing or you might even find that it's been left in reverse and you go all the way from here to Glasgow in reverse. Mm. Or in fact you go to London because it happens to be in reverse and it's not really the way you want to go in go but it's carrying you that way instead of you Mhm. in control. So it's getting in control of this you can only control it if you understand it. Mhm. Right when you know what the terms are what people are talking about what they mean when they say petrol engine or a diesel engine. Yeah. They're all the same aren't they engines you know. I've heard that one many times. Yeah? Yeah so when people are saying, Well simple harmonic motion or erm you know throwing a stone up and down that sort of thing roughly isn't it sort of one of them goes up and down a lot like that one of them just goes up once and down same equation. It's not. as it happens. It would be nice if it would be nice if It'd be easier if it was. As you say if there was just one equation that covered all eventualities . So definition of simple harmonic motion you find anything that's moving so that the acceleration is always measured the opposite way to Mhm. the way you're measuring the distance and is proportional to that distance Mhm. you've got simple harmonic motion. Erm you'll find this on exam questions show that the resulting motion is simple harmonic motion. Mhm. Erm for example if we ha if I gave you that equation. Yeah. Right and said erm a particle moves so that its displacement is given by this function of T Mhm. they would they those X squareds there'd be would be T squared watch that by the way because I did say that's D S by D T Yeah. and these tend to come in so I put them in there. Right so everywhere there's an X there it should be T's Yeah. Erm It's cos I'm used to er using D Y by D X now. So if I gave you that and said show that that is simple harmonic motion. Mhm. Differentiate it. Try and work it back to that . No well well well Well work it forward to the for work it forward this is the easy way when they Yeah. say they give you something and it'll be hideous looking you know Er Mhm. it won't be nice and simple like this it's when they give you the simple one and say integrate it that it's hard. When they give you the horrible one which is the answer Mhm. and say now what was the question erm erm Then you can just chop them off as they become constants. Yeah. So you look at that and you say okay differentiate it once to get the V differentiate it again to get acceleration and it'll come to minus K X. So it comes to minus K X and you say as the acceleration is proportional to X but in the opposite direction Mhm. erm we've got simple harmonic motion because that's the definition of it. Now you might be give all sorts of polar coordinates and you'll be given working with sines and coses which is where we came in. Yeah. Right? Mhm. Erm now if I'd given you the same thing and you'd Mhm. had sine squared and cos squared. Mhm. Are you with you wouldn't have been so happy with it would you ? No not at all. But it would have been exactly the same problem simple harmonic motion Mhm. looking at it from a different point of view and measuring different things. So going back to where we came in. You're not rushing off anywhere are you? No no. It wasn't in there I'll scribble that out. Looking at cos erm I tend to use a lot of paper particularly if it's yours it's usually my own but never mind. So yes you can what I want you to do with these is look through them Mhm. some of them you might just ignore and say Oh I'm not bothered about that others Yeah. you might think Ah there was a good point now put it down in your own words don't copy Mhm. what I wrote or the example that I worked out or even the way you did it yourself here Mhm. try to paraphrase it as though you were explaining it to someone who doesn't understand quite as much as you. Mhm. Okay someone else in your own class say who's got a fair idea about what's going on but Mm. doesn't quite understand it as well as you do and you're trying to explain it to him. Mhm. Because you'll understand it fairly well at the moment but when you come to read your notes Yeah it's a different thing. What on earth was I talking about here? I obviously understood this very well and I had all sorts of Mhm. funny abbreviations and lots of and so obviously. Yeah. seem obvious a month later when you when you've Mhm. skipped half the stages or you know how do you feel when he's working on the board and he skips several lines ? Yeah. and you're thinking how did he get from there and by the time you've worked out how he got from there to there you've Mhm. missed where he's going to. Yeah that happens Erm quite often. Yeah so the big thing about this is is getting up to date getting yourself understanding the terms when he says cos squared when he says simple har when he says S H M you think yeah. Simple harmonic motion straight away. I know what that means it means if you get ten times further away you've got ten times the acceleration but it's pulling back in towards Mhm. the centre. It's pulling it against the direction we're measuring S Mhm. or X or anything else we might have to call it. So if we If I gave you this to integrate erm what do you think of that? Apart from how kind he is to me giving me something so easy. Two words pop into me head and they're oh hell. Erm right okay well the first thing I'd do is handle that one. What does that look like? That would be sine three X squared. Right but don't forget to put your brackets on it's not sort of sine of nine X squared it's Yeah. it's that Mm all squared . Okay. Yeah. so there's all sorts of things this could be and that's the one it is. Mhm. It's find the sine of three X and then square your answer . Square the lot. Right okay so it's that times Times cos three X cos of three X. Okay. Right then. Now where did that come from? What was I differentiating to finish up with that weird looking thing? Have you spotted anything? It's a function of a function again. Right that's what it is. it's raised to some power Mhm. right sine three X differentiated Cos three X. Right. It might not actually be exactly cos three X erm It might be plus erm It's more likely to be times. Right so now we've got something to start on okay. Okay. We've got a we've got this this is what integrating is about. Mhm. Look at it what on earth have we got here what a horrible mess. Now what Mhm. could we have possibly started out with not to give us exactly this cos it's too it's too much to find Mhm. exactly this. But to give us something along these lines. So we might have started out with something like Y equals sine three X squared. Mhm. Right okay so if you'd like to differentiate that see what it gives. Now you're doing all this in your head? Mm. Mm. Mm. Okay well soon I will be asking you to do them in your head but Yeah. to start with erm same as any any job you do stripping an engine whatever you like when you first do it you go through very slowly one bit at a time to make sure you're doing everything right and then Mhm. you build up a pattern then you build up a rhythm and eventually you know do it Yeah. as you're talking to someone. So let's do that's good so you've got a three in it three cos cubed X. That's not quite D Y by D X yet is it? Mm no . So let's take it through erm the way we would do that okay? Y equals that Mhm. can't do that Mhm. That's it Yeah. I cannot I cannot do I cannot differentiate that I'll tell you what I could do I'd have no problem at all if you gave me something Y equals U squared no problem Mm. so I'm going to fix it so that's the that's what I do cos I'm just going to say let Y equal U Mhm. So okay what's or hang on U equals Right. sine That's it. three X. Sine three X. So what can you find from that? Yeah that's correct. Am I on the right line there? You definitely are on along the right lines. Now I can never remember whether you need to put the minus in or not. Well Erm I haven't got a a definite way a a sort of little trick for remembering that erm but the big thing to remember is s before you just put it in no matter how sure you are stop and think now am I differentiating or integrating? Mhm. Because one way it's one way round the other way it's the other. It's the other way around. Which is the the one that you're sort of that you came across first of all the trig functions? Erm sine. Sine and then cos. Mhm. Differentiate sine you get cos. Right. Okay they're the straightforward ones if you do it the other way round if you differentiate cos you'll get minus sine . Minus sine. And if you're integrating it will be the other way round. So there's quite a lot of things to think of and the Yeah. best way is to just thick of one of them Mhm. and get that solid Yeah. and use that as a reference so you can work out the others from it instead of trying to remember the lot. Cos you've got Yeah so many things to remember in all subjects not just in maths Mhm. that you need some sort of anchor points that you think Yeah. Right I know that's okay so I can build on that. Mhm. So you've worked out D U by D X right and what do you get from here? You can differentiate that with respect to D Y by D U. Okay. Right Hang on you're differentiating. You're differentiating. Mm. Not integrating. You're not Oh. right and as I said this is this is so Yeah. easy to do. Mm. Because of that it's a very common peril. So Y equals X squared you differentiate that two X okay? Mm yeah. And it's always the dead easy ones like Y equals X where people think it's too easy too Yeah. differentiate and get one so they integrate and get a half X squared . You integrate it to get the difficult one. Yeah. Right now what about this one here let's have a little look at this. We've got U equals sine three X. Mhm. Anyone ever shown you how to in how to differentiate sine of three X can't do that. I could do Erm sine X but not sine of three X. Oh hang on a minute now I'm Mm? There's something in the back of me mind which is saying there should be a figure there. Right okay. Well I can't do that I'm afraid Mm. Tell you what I could do if I had something like U equals sine T or if Mhm. you don't like T I can d what what other letter would you like Z okay? Mm. U equals sine Z I could Yeah. do that. That's be D U by D Z. Mhm. Would be now differentiate differentiate sine you get a cos okay. Mhm. Integrating integrating a sine you get a minus cos so cos Z okay Mhm. where Z equals three X and D Z Mhm. by D X is what? Erm If Z equals three X so if I differentiate that with respect to X what do I get? Differentiate three X with respect to X. You get erm I'm getting messed up now. Yeah you're getting you're you're getting saturated at the moment you've Mhm. had a lot of stuff thrown at you in one go. Erm Y equals five X differen D Y by D X. Right Draw a picture Y equals five X differentiate think of some coordinates. Erm Y equals five X if X equals two what would Y be? Y would be ten. Y equals five X the gradient equals five. Mhm. Okay it's the easy ones that go . Yeah. And the big thing that happens is you you suddenly in the middle of differentiating start integrating or in the middle of an integrating start differentiating or you start doing taking you've had enough of this so you start doing little short cuts like erm differentiating sine three X just as if it was sine X Mhm. which it's not. to just three. Yeah. So this one come to so the D Y the D U by D X that we're looking for here Mhm. Mhm. by a function of a function of a function. Mm good E to the minus nought point three. Oh. Well it's E times itself nought point three times. Minus nought point three times. Minus Yeah well the minus How do you multiply some Thanks. How do you multiply something by itself a erm a minus number of times. Same as you do it a plus number of times except the other way round. the other way round? Erm On the other side of the scale basically. On the other side of the scale. I mean, once i negative numbers themselves are they don't exist. Mm. I mean, it's just a a figment of someone's imagination. Anybody can use them to get Mm. It makes life easier. It's once you try and when you think, Well they must be real and I'm missing the point. Now what do they really mean. You know, there's sort of minus forty three bricks in my house. Mm. he's off his jump sort of thing. Mhm. Erm multiply something together s Well say, ten to the six, that's ten multiplied by itself That's a lot of times. Mhm. How many tens are there altogether? Six Six. Okay ten to the minus three? Well that's ten multiplied by itself a lot of times. How many tens are there altogether? Minus three. Oh yes? Ooh yeah. Well it doesn't doesn't really mean much does it. It's a load of rubbish really. Mm. But it works. It does work. And it gives us the right answers. So where did we get ten to the minus three from? Ten to the minus three? Where did it How did we s we come up with this idea of ten to the minus three? Because it's giving us a value whether it be a value which Why did you Why did you decide on minus three. Let's s let's say if we have erm Well what does ten to the minus three mean? It's ten times itself minus three times . There's no other way really you can describe it . Okay let's say we have Now we won't use X we'll make it even simpler we'll use two. Mhm. Two cubed times two to the fifth. What does that come to? Er s two to the eighth. Right, so you added those, two to the three add five. Mhm. And you do that because what does two cubed mean? Two times itself three times. Right. Times two the fifth is Two itself five times yeah. Right, we won't bother counting them we'll just Mhm. say, there are five of them along there. Yeah. And there are three of them along here so how many have we got altogether multiplied b well we've got three add five. Yeah. Okay. Two to the three add five. That's okay. Now if we have let's say two to the five, divided by two to the three. two to the two. What does it mean? Two times two times two times two times two. Mm one, two, three One, two, three, four, five That's it. Mm. Over two times two times two. Now why did we did we subtract this three from that five. Cos we're cancelling. Mhm. We can cancel those three on the bottom. Yeah. And how many we're left with? Two. Five take away three, two. Two to the five minus three. Excuse me. Now try this one. Two to the three, over two to the five. Mm. Okay we're going to cancel the twos. But what Mhm. we do what we did here, we cancelled all the twos on the bottom, with as many as it would cancel on the top. So we cancel all the twos on the bottom, right that's good, yeah that goes, yeah that's wh Oops, what do we do with these? Well Put in some imaginary twos yeah. We're two short on the top to do the complete cancel. We're two missing if you like. Mhm. And we just call that, because it works, Yeah. This thing of subtracting, we carry on doing it even when it goes negative. So we say, Well this is Two to the minus two . Two to the That's it. Two to the three, minus a f a five. Mhm. Two to the minus two. What does two to the minus two mean then? In this case it's when it's been cancelled down, there was two more needed than Right. than there was in the first place . Right. I mean that's a good way of putting it. That's exactly Mhm. what it does mean. Mm. That when we cancelled it all down on the bottom, we were two short on the top. Yeah. So it's just a a notation. And it's not a negative number at all, it's a positive number. Mhm. But it's got this funny thing in, a negative index, so what value is, what's the value of two to the minus two? Erm it's sort of nought minus that figure. It's two to the minus Sorry yeah . No it's not a negative number. We'll put it's sign in front of it so we can just make sure of that. We started off with a positive number here, and a positive number there, and we divided one positive number by another positive number. We got a positive answer, but we got this funny bar . I mean in in logs log tables they'd write it this way. Cos two to the two isn't a brilliant example, let's let's think what would this mean? Ten to the minus two. What would be the value of that? It's just ten times itself Mm. Two times in a minus direction. It's not minus not minus. Try it with your calculator, see what it comes to. Erm doing a log? Just do row Mm. te erm ten two. X to the X to a power. What does it give you? Point nought one. Point nought one. Okay. Try ten to the minus one. Have a guess first, what do you think ten to the minus one will come to? Point one. Right. Okay. Erm so have a guess at what ten to the minus six will comes to. Er point Well six zeros one. Ten to the Er five zeros one sorry. Good. Ten to the minus one, had no zeros before the one. Ten to the minus two has got one. Ten to the minus six will have five. It's a positive number, but it's a fraction. What would one over ten squared come to? Erm Mm work it out in your head. Right you've done it there. One over ten squared's just a hundredth . What's ten Right a hundredth. Mm. Well that was interesting wasn't it? What would one over ten come to? Erm point one. One Ten to the one. ten squared. What would one over It's just like an inverse it's of that number Right. Mm. What would one over a million come to? A millionth. So what would one over a thousand come to? It'd be nought point nought nought one. Okay. One over a thousand is a thousandth. And that would be ten to the Power of three. Okay. So, if someone gives you like something like this say, erm ten to the minus eight, and you want to know I mean you keep seeing this . Negative num that minus sign is the thing that when you've almost certainly got recollections of . Mhm. eight take away five, yeah okay, I can do that. Five take away eight, I can't do that. And then one day, they've been telling you for years, You can't do that. One day they suddenly say, Well yes you can actually, we call them minus numbers, negative numbers, directed Mhm. numbers. Temperature numbers. Oh hang on. . And it sort of conditions you a bit, so later on whenever you see it, you sort of get hypnotized mesmerized Mhm. by that by Oh not gonna like this one. So get rid of it. As soon as someone gives you ten to the minus eight, you can say, Well if I want to convert that into real money, Gives you one over ten to the eight. Okay. So that is not affecting the sign. It's still a positive number. It's a positive number still. I mean you could have a negative number to the minus eight. You could have minus ten to the minus eight. If you wanted but that is not affecting the sign of the number. That's just telling you, when did the cancelling, we were eight short on the top. Mhm. So in other words we got eight tens left over on the bottom. Mhm. So it's one over ten to the eight. Erm so going back to this one, E to the minus nought point three. What's that equal to? One over E to the point three. Right, equals one over E to the plus nought point three. And what's E to the point three? Roughly? What's what's E as a number? Just approximately? Oh er two point seven something or other isn't it? point three. Mm. Okay. Call it three. And what does something to the power point three, mean? Roughly a third. Does it. Erm What does what does a hundred to the power half mean? It's let me get this straight now Okay. It'll be a hundred to the pow erm a hundred times a half of itself so fifty. No No. Oh. It won't be. Now let's just have a look at what we're doing. You've looked at numbers all your life. Mhm. Counting numbers, lovely. Know where you are with those. Then you get negative numbers, then you get fractions. And eventually you think you've just about got it sussed and they throw in indexes. You just about got these worked out. Oh not too bad these indexes, if you multiply then you just add them, if you're dividing Mhm. you take them away. Raise them to a power, then you do multiply. So of one level up from what you think or one level down from what you think you should be doing. Mm. And then they start throwing in fractional indices and negative indices. Well we've looked at negative indices. They're not negative at all. They're one overs. They're really the fractions. Mhm. Okay so what do the fractional indices mean? Well we know the rules. The thi th See the thing about maths is it's very easy to learn the rules but but hard to understand when we're doing things that don't make sense. Mhm. Erm so very easy to learn the rules for arithmetic, like say the rules for adding. Three add four is always the same as four add three . Four add three. No problem. Erm seven take away three, that's not the same as three take way seven. Mhm. You sort of learn things like that. Times, that's okay, three times four, the same as four times three. But not the same when you divide, it goes a bit odd. mu multiplying using indices couldn't be simpler. Add the indexes, indices Mhm. which do you prefer to call it? Well . Indexes. Call it indexes it's simpler. Add the indexes. Right. So if I've got the number here, equals a hundred to the power half. I'm going to multiply it by another number which also happens to be a hundred to the power a half. And what's the answer? A hundred to the power of one. Right. A hundred to the power of half, Add a half cos we're multiplying which is a hundred to the power one, which is just a hundred. So that number is the same as this one, they're both whatever they mean, they're both the same cos they're both a hundred to the power half. So what is this number, that you multiply it by itself and it makes a hundred? Ten. Ten okay. Erm so a hundred to the power half, is actually equal to ten, let's say if we did erm sixteen to the power half, times sixteen to the power of a half. What would that come to? Sixteen to the power of one. Okay, so what does sixteen to the power a half mean? What is sixtee or w what value has it got? Is it a square root? That's it. I mean, you don't need to ask sort of why or what or we've n we've got this rule multiplying . Yeah. We use it, and we find out that the square root of anything comes out as half of it. So sixteen to the half Oh excuse me. square root of sixteen. Square root of sixteen. We had E to the power of one third, times E to the power of one third, times E to the power of one third. Means E to the power of one. That comes out to E. So what does E to the one third mean? Erm E well it's cube root E. Right. the cube root, third root of E. So what would erm what would let's say sixteen to the power of one quarter be? Erm er how you describe this one. Erm the f I suppose the fourth Go on. root. The fourth root. Yeah. Mm. That was the Of sixteen. the second root, the twoth root. special name for it the square root. Mhm. And that's the cube root, cos when we cube something it fourth root. so and what would that come to? What would the fourth root of sixteen be? Eesh erm Oh hell's bells. It's about two isn't or something ? It's very very close to two, yes. If we if you're not happy with fourth roots, you could do square roots. Mm. It'd be the square root of the square root. If we had sixteen to the power of half, what's that? What does that mean? Erm well it's the square root of sixteen. Square root of sixteen. That's some number, whatever it is, Mhm. we might not be able to find the square root of sixteen, but whatever it is, it is a number. Mhm. just treat it as a number. And we can raise that to the power of a half. Mm. Means find the square root of this number. Well what's this number, this number is the square root of sixteen . Now what do we do with indexes when we're raising to a power? Now you times them. Right, so we should finish up with Sixteen to the fourth well the one over four yeah. One over four. Right? So what's this? This is the square root of the square root. Mm. Mm. And that's what the fourth root means. And erm comes out to two. Two square it, you get the four, and then square four Sixteen. What would So we know what sixteen to the one quarter means, what about sixteen to the three quarters. Now it doesn't mean anything now in terms of multiply sixteen by itself three quarters times That's gone. That's what we started off with when we were doing the nice simple stuff with positive whole numbers for indexes. But then we developed it a bit further like we did with negative numbers. Mhm. You know, three add four, four add three, yeah this is fine. And then we go beyond that, and develop it into this sort of slightly murky negative area. And then we develop this further. So what would that mean? How could you have finished up with an answer like sixteen it's a bit like integration this where we're working backwards . With a great deal of difficulty. What would you have been doing to what, to comes up with Erm Mm Have a look at what happened here, and what were we doing there. The only thing I could think of Go on. would be Just play about with it, see what you get. Three quarter. That's awkward. That really is awkward. Well c I could make it erm nine sixteenth if you like if it's yeah. that's any more help. Erm I'll make a guess. Go on. Good. At that Right, erm So we started off with that. What would you do to it to turn it into this? Into that. Times it by three. Mm. Along the right lines. On the right lines. What were you timesing by three? It's your actual What were you multiplying by three? S erm that. Were you? That's a num That's a number. Were you multiplying that number by three? A quarter. Right . Oh, sixteen to the power of one over four, yeah. Now were you multiplying t that's a number, sixteen It actually comes Mhm. to two as you said. Yeah. Were you multiplying two by three, or were you multiplying something else by three to finish up with sixteen to the three quarters? It's the quarter itself . You were multiplying the index by three . Mhm. So if you're multiplying an the index of something by three Where you had say I had X squared Yeah. and I did something strange to is and it became X to the six, what would I have done to it. You'd have well basically timesed it by three. No I wouldn't Timesed the index by three. Yeah. I would have timesed the ind Mm. And what what do you do when you times the index by three? Erm Oh, you're doing this again you're you're Right. raising the power. Raise it up to the power. Of three. So X squared to the power of three Mhm. is X to the two times three . Times three. So sixteen to the fourth Times three. Right or cubed, raised to the power three, is equal to sixteen to the Sixteen to the thr one quarter times three. Which is Three over four. sixteen to the three quarters. Mhm. Now sometimes they might give it you as sixteen to the three quarters and you can sort of read that off, What am I doing here? Well look the the one quarter part of it means,find the fourth root of sixteen and then the three means cube your answer. Yeah. So sixteen to the three quarters is find the fourth root and cube it or if you like cube sixteen and then find the fourth root. It doesn't matter, it comes out to the same thing. Erm they're not always as helpful as that. They might say, sixteen to the nought point seven five. And you think, What on earth does that mean? It's still three quarters though. It still means three Three over four. So if you might get something like erm We'll go away from sixteen, we'll use two for a change. We'll use ten. Ten to the erm let's say, nought point nought three. Well, what we've really got is ten to the three hundredths. Mm. Which what does that mean? Right, you've got ten to the power of one hundredth. Okay and what does ten to the power of one hundredth mean? Right you've got ten to the power of one hundred. Okay and what does ten to the power of one hundredth mean? Erm basically Something not very pleasant. It'd be the hundredth root. Which I would not like to have to work out . The hundredth root of ten. Okay. And then well we haven't got one Times ten. hundred, we've got three hundred. Mm. Times it by So the index is times three. The index is times three . . So we must have raised that to the power three. So ten to the nought point nought three, is the hundredth root of Find the hundredth root of ten and then cube it. Yeah. Or if you like, cube ten then find the hundredth root of that. Erm and that's all this means. So just to make it a little bit more exciting And then this is this is it finished off then. You you know it all. Ten to the minus nought point nought three. Well what on earth does that mean? Mm. Well Let's let's slow it down a bit. Break it down a bit to something that's a bit easier to Oh dear. Right, ten to the three. Right no problem. Got that one. Right. Right ten to the minus three. Right What's that. Ten to the minus three, erm is basically, when it's been broken down and we've got three left On the bottom. on the bottom And so on the bottom On the bottom we've got three left over. Yeah. That's it. Mhm. So write it was just One over that. What about ten to the three quarters? What does that mean? Right, it's ten to the power of one over four. So it's ten to the one over four. All raised to the power of three. Yeah, so what's ten to the minus three quarters? Ah. Ah. Mhm. Good I like that. We're getting somewhere. Ah. We're getting not just somewhere a very long way away , It's ten to the power of three over four. Mhm. . That's it. That's it. Horrible way of putting it but it's . as soon as you get a negative index anywhere, if someone says, Oh we've got erm X to the minus nought point six. Well let's get rid of that thing before we start thinking it's minus X or something. Well we'll just put that one over and that's got rid of that bar if you like as long as it Mhm. has the bar there. One over X to the nought point six . X to the nought point six. And then we can work out what on earth X to the nought point six means. Well I'll leave that to you. What does X to the nought point six mean then? X to the nought point six is erm X to the power of six over ten. Right. And what does that mean? What does that come to? Right What what how did we finish up with X to the six over ten. What were we doing? X to the tenth. Right we raised it. point six. Okay. So we might have finished Is is X to the is X to the six over ten, the same as X to the three over five? Yes. What does this mean? Hang on. Er oh.. What does this mean? This means X to the one over five, Mhm. Three times. Cubed. Not three times but cubed . So what this means, is that the same as that? That's awkward. That really is awkward. But that's it that's finished on indexes . Mhm. You y erm I'm very very delighted actually you've really picked this up . Oh right. It's wonderful, it is. Sometimes this can take several lessons. I mean it's not easy it's not there's nothing obvious about it, it's all what's this weird stuff we're doing now? But we use it in everything but particularly Yeah. in engineering. Erm you need to be really on top of indices particularly negative indices and particularly negative fractional indices and usually expressed as a decimal because when you're looking at circuits and stuff like that, you'll get the erm you know, the answer will be given in this sort of form. They are the same. Okay. So what how how did you what was your what was your first what was your first thought about it? Your first thoughts? Well the first thing that normally would run through me head would be, yes it is the same, cos I've seen that. And I know they're the same. Right, it's I'm breaking it down to the cake again. It's the fractions of the cake. Right. Okay. It's got to be because three fifths is always the same as six tenths. Ah but because it doesn't mean this now . Then you see that. That's right. Yeah. So one of the best ways to to sort of get it fixed in your mind, is try it with something. Well let's try erm That's what I ended up doing Well that's what everyone does. Erm sort of how high level they're at at maths. When they Mhm. get to a bit where they get stuck. They sort of come down Pull it down a bit. Pull it down to something a bit more real that you can get hold of. I mean if you're doing things like er you're working with X or something, erm and you want to know does Well so say you're working with X times and Y and you want to know You don't know if it does i is X is X times Y always the same as Y times X? And you think, Well they're only numbers. So a three times two throw in a three and a two Would that always be the same as a two times a three? Yes of course it would. Well these are only numbers. And they're following the same laws so yeah that should be. But So it works. No? if someone just says sort of, straight off and asks you especially if you you think, Ooh he's asking me here maybe they're not, maybe they are. Is X times Y the same as Y times X. Oh . What what's this X and Y? They're numbers. Put some numbers in, try it. So what numbers did you put in here to try it? It was two actually . Good, it's a good one to use, two. So what did you try? Right. Two to the six tenths. I did it to the fir first one. Right. Erm, put it in there, and thought, well a fifth of two. Fifth root of. Mm. Of two. Fifth root of two. So something that you had to multiply by itself and get five of them all multiplied together and it equals two. Erm and it was as What was it I got? Bububububub You worked that out in your head? Fifth root of two. I do I think so. It was something like that I just remember thinking hang on this works. I was you could get a you could get a job on the stage doing that. No I was pulling it through this, that's what I was doing. I was working it out through this. Right. Mm. And I thought, well I'll break it down so That was what it was, I'd pulled all the fractions together, put them into a common denominator. Mm. I thought well, there's two of them to every one of them. Yeah. So double that's six. Six tenths so it's the same. Right. Oh right, I mean I'm I'm I'm not disputing that. If if if you're talking of pieces of cake, then three fifths, six tenths, there's no difference . Is the same thing. Yeah. Right? That's that's one thing, but is finding the tenth root of something and then raising to the power six, or raising something to the power six and then finding the sa the tenth root, is that the same as finding the fifth root and cubing it or cubing it and finding the fifth root. That's not as obvious. That's what we're looking at, these I mean normally, normally they're the same. And we're not bothered . Yeah. But are they the same here? I mean would it be the same if we had ten and we raised it to the three quarters. What do we do with that? That means we w w what does ten to the three quarters mean? It's ten to the power of a quarter. Right. The fourth root of ten and then Is cube it. Or we can do it the other way round, it doesn't matter. We could have started off with ten cubed and found the fourth root of that. Mhm. It still gives us the same answer cos we multiply to get the indices. But would that be the same as ten to the nought point seven five. Which is ten to the power seventy five and then find the hundredth root of it? Oh God. Or ten sorry find the hundredth root of ten and raise that to the power seventy five. I mean these two are equivalent cos our rules say so for multiplying the indices . Yeah. It's But is is that you know, is this three quarters, is that the same a is ten to the power three, all raised to the power and then find the fourth root, is that the same as ten to the seventy five and then find one hundred. Your calculator probably won't go up to ten to the seventy five. Erm. But you could try it on these. On the six tenths and the three fifths. With ten, couldn't you. Mm. Start off with ten and find ten to the six, ten to the power six. and then find the tenth root of that. Er does my calculator like going backwards? Don't think it will. Has it got a tenth root? Well you've got some number in there, so what do you want, you want that number to a power, to the power of one tenth. Mm. So. X Y er one tenth. Er point one. That's it. . There we are. What does that come to? Three point nine eight something or other. Three point nine eight something or other. okay. Put that in the memory. Right, so that was That's that one. ten to the six over ten. Right, now now try ten to the three over five. Ten to the three fifths. Ten X Y So ten start off with ten and cube it first. Yeah. So we've got ten cubed . And then find the fifth root of that. X Y erm Yeah. Three point nine eight something or other so it's the same . So it's the same. So it is the same. I mean it it's just as well. It's just as well Just check, do a memory recall. Yeah. It's the same. because otherwise we would be in an awful lot of trouble with these. Mhm. If someone says it's sort of, Oh it's six tenths, and Oh well I could cancel that down can't I. I can make that ten to the three fifth. And somebody else'll say, Oh we'll put that as erm ten to the point six. And if these weren't all equivalent, we would be in a lot of trouble, but they are. Mm. So that's an interesting thing. If you multiply these out, and even when they're fractional. So you raise it to a power, multiply the indices, when it comes out as a fraction, it doesn't matter how you I mean if you wanted to be really obscure Yeah. you could put write something as ten to the minus erm three percent. . What's three percent? Well three percent's just three over a hundred . Three over a hundred yeah. So ten to the minus three o No one would dream of putting of using percent. It is a fraction. I suppose you could use it if you wanted to. So back to the back to E. Right. Erm I lost your page. Here it is. What does E to the minus nought point three mean? I'd like you without using your calculator, just to get some idea of how big that is. We'll take E as three. We'll forget about the E and we'll put a number in instead. And we'll say, Three Mhm. to the minus nought point Point three. three recurring. Okay. make it any more. I won't say any more easy, but any less awkward. Right,Okay so that's three jujujujuja Ee, where's the start? Erm Well what's the most awkward thing about this? Well the first thing is to minus. over . Right, get rid of that. Good. So it's one over three to the Mm nought point three. Right. And it's nought point three recurring. Right. Erm give you a clue. We'll get rid of the decimal and Sign change it into . the power of a third. Good. Excellent. And then what does that mean in in real money. Without all these indexes? Erm dudududududududu That's where you're putting it now. Erm If it was three to the half, what would you change it to? I'm trying to think back now erm Well when we were doing that Okay? A hundred to the half times a hundred to the half, made a hundred. And you said, Oh is it the Oh of course that's right. Yes. Is it the square root? And it was. So this time cos it's a third A cube It's a third root. It's that. Right. So taking E as about three, this answer Mhm. that you've got is roughly one over In fact we can now go back to having E again. Erm so you can just put your E in and you can get to one over E to the and there's your cube root of E. Okay? Erm. put three in. Put three in. Yeah. Put three in, find it's cube root and then find one over that. Was that square root twice? Mm. Okay. Well well well why wasn't it right? I mean don't worry about, Oh well that wasn't right. Cos that'd be the the root to the fourth that. That would be the fourth root. Right. Mm. Erm ah there is a cube root. Oh . That's a shame. Ah. Saved. Where's where's your cube root by the way? There a little tiny one. I hadn't it before . Ah now not a lot of calculators have that . Right er and So hang on a minute right. You've got one point four four twoish. Okay, do it again Without using that. A and this time this this just this time just raise it to the one third and see if you get the same answer, to check it is the cube root. Er three. Mm . Used three yeah, three. Three X Y point three. Yeah. answer. Good. That's good and can you t did you write . I would have had to change it Right. if it hadn't been. Er Right now Okay. That was that's raising it you know raise it to the one third, you find the cube root. Mhm. But the actual answer you got wasn't raising it wasn't point three recurring, it was point nought three. So you start off again with your three. Put your three in. Okay and raise that to the power point nought three. X Y point nought three. Which is not a lot. About one. Roughly. Right and than, you get one over that. So basically just I'd be tempted to to inverse it with that. Mhm. Yeah, the one over X would that do it? Yeah. So one over something a bit more than one, will come out to something a bit less than one . A bit less than it. Mm. Okay? So that's great but we started off with three there and we should have started off with E. So through imme a this this is intensely repetitive so that you can you're building it up, you're sort of doing it with numbers and then you're doing it more Mhm. and so you're seeing where you're going. So it was . The answer you got. Other sheet Right other sheet. Other sheet. E so we start off with E. Rai it was on actually to the point three not point nought three. So I got that wrong. Raise it to the poi to the power point three. Point three. And then take one over it. And what's that come to? Point seven Is that the answer they got in the book? Point seven four one.. Right. . So you had got the right answer. Mhm. But going from there To there. evaluating that I loused up. on your your calculator, you probably really didn't know what on earth this means Yeah, I know where I went wrong there. I can see what I've done there . Right. So there's a there's a few things come into this. One is obviously, being able to use the calculator. But before you can use the calculator, you need to understand what you're doing and you say, My calculator's got the cube root on it. I can do cube roots and things. Well great well what's the cube root mean? I don't know. No idea, just this thing on the calculator. Mhm. So once you understand and my calculator can do sort of ten to the minus point four seven. So can mine but what's it mean? Yeah. When would you use it, how would you put things in, what order what would you be doing? So that's that's the basis really of your sort of higher calculations that you're Mhm. doing in lots of in all sorts of places in the B Tec level come in. And you'll be trundling along quite happily saying, Yeah I understand this, we're doing that. and then he'll put some squiggles on the board and he'll say, Well of course this comes to erm seventeen point six. He m he might sort of put an answer down like this and erm he'll say, Well this this should come to something like seven teen point six times ten to the minus nought point four. Mm mm mm, what's happening?now you know, you woul it's not standard form, don't confuse it With standard form, you always have integer indices here. So then you always get just the one thing before the decimal place. One digit before the decimal place. One point two three four, times ten to the minus twenty three or something. Mm. If you're dealing with erm atoms and stuff like this, this huge or tiny number will come in. One over ten to the twenty three. That but that though Watch out because he will You should be drawn to that negative index as soon as you see one. But when Mhm. you do see one, you leave it in because you're going to deal with Yeah, one over these nice simple laws we've got for indices. Add them when you're multiplying, times them when you raise them to a power, so we don't want to start changing this to one over and things, because we'll lose that easy way of doing things. Mhm. But when we're getting near the answer, or when we've first got the question and we're trying to think about it. Someone says, now is this a big number or a small number. W what is that, a big number or a small number. That's a number in standard form, is it big or small or what? It's very small. It's minute. Right. If we make it something like one point It's nought point and twenty two Right. One times ten to the minus six. Well what would one times ten to the six be? Nought point five nought one. W that would be ten to the six Oh. plus six Yeah. that's right. It's a million but erm Now that's a million and that's a millionth. So this Mhm. is Whatever you call erm twenty four . That would be a million Erm million million million. Yeah. Okay? And and and this which is a minus twenty four, is one million million million millionth. Mm. Very small. Yeah. And I think I think if I had something like that, I'd tend to write sort of zero Zero. Yeah. But but there are times when that is not zero. Mhm. If you're dealing with erm how many you know, how many atoms of Hydrogen do you get in erm well a litre of gas or something, Yeah. sort of about ten to the twenty three. And erm so what would be the volume in in litres of one atom of Hydrogen. So what it would be Mhm. this it would be something times ten to the minus twenty three. very small. Well we expect to be very small. Yeah. It's not zero. Cos we're working atomic level . It's still there, yeah. If you're working at erm how far is it from here to New York and someone gives you an answer like this like What is it? About two thousand miles is it? Someone gives you a sort of two point three four And you've got about twenty five decimal places of miles Mhm. You'd say, rubbish I didn't even want to know whether it was say two thousand two hundred and twenty six. Two thousand miles is near enough. Yeah. Yeah? Not bothered about that, just want an idea. Er but if you're working round the low end, then you are interested in the tiny tiny differences . Right, does that help with logs? Yes. To understand what Logs are indexes. For everything that we've done there, all the way through, I should have been saying logs. If I had of done you would have been thinking, Ooh ooh ooh ooh . like this. But with indexes it's easier to understand. Mhm. Now did you draw I asked you to draw some graphs didn't I. I was going to and had no graph paper . I see. You should have said. Yeah it only clicked as you'd gone, when I had to do it. I was halfway through , Aha. I Yeah. Ah. got all these done and then bump. I've got some graph paper car, when someone tries to describe it to you. Mhm. You haven't got much chance of really understanding what they're on about, Mm, no. saying, Well yeah sort of, I suppose or . But you can't really follow it. If they show you a picture, you've got a better chance. Erm or a a working model with the pistons going up and down and things . Where it's What roughly what it did. And a real one fine, you can see what's happening then. Erm so if you're working with logs, if you're working wi I mean if you're working with say, Y equals X squared, Mhm. and you want to tell someone something about it, you can give them lots of examples,three, Well it would turn that into nine. If someone gave you minus four, it would turn that into sixteen. Yeah. Erm to someone who knows a little bit about maths, a good way to explain it to them is draw the graph. Say, Well that's what it looks like, that's the whole Mhm. function. They can look at it, in a glance, they've got a picture. Ah right, I can see what it does now. Just find a value anywhere on that, I can see the general trends, what's happening. So with logs, if you can draw a picture and Don't just sort of look at a picture in a book there's a graph of Y equals log X. Do it yourself. I mean Mhm. It's only take you probably take you about twenty minutes, to do, Y equals log X, just use your calculator. Mhm. And Y equals E to the X. And erm draw them on separate ones and then compare them and see what you get. And then you staring to understand what about. Now integration, did you have any with logs in? Erm let me think. I can't remember off hand but I can soon tell you. Okay. Cos if we have they'll be in here. Right, Mm. Erm Brrubububub. Just here.. Here's a lovely a lovely looking expression. D equals C log to the base E of one plus root L squared plus C squared blah blah blah. Well it would wouldn't it? Yes. Oh I see. What's that mean? Let's let's see if we can decipher this one. The others haven't got logs in unfortunately. Let's start with one, let's start with an easy one. That hasn't got logs in. Mhm. Erm er Yes we obviously have had them,there's one . Three X bracket log E Mm. five X. I don't know what we're gonna do with that but at least now you Ooh God there's another one. Right, so simultaneous why don't you i why don't you integrate this log Or why don't you erm Because I don't know what it is. What are we doing? Well let's let's just have a quick look at this one. What's this describing here? V equals large V or V nought or whatever you like, E to the minus R T over L. Right, er What would it's what would it's graph look like? It was number ten somewhere. Yeah there you are, this one. Mhm. no actual description of what it was at all. No, well these are all real, I mean there's one, number nine. Let's look at number nine,. Erm working out voltage across a capacitor in a series . Okay, so a capacitor is being charged up. Erm, have you seen the curves for a capacitor charging up? Once, a while back. Yes I did. Erm Okay so there's It roughly goes, like that . There's time and there's your potential voltage. It starts off at zero voltage at Mm. zero time. It goes roughly like if you'll pardon the lumps everywhere . Oh I'll pardon the lumps. In fact that's beautiful cos that's what it actually does. Ideally it doesn't have that wiggle in but actually Mm. it quite often becomes unstable around there. Yeah. Okay, that's lovely. That is exactly what it looks like. So That's when it reaches it's peak value Sort of sort of never reaches Yeah it never quite gets there but. some time over here it's it's getting. So that's it's peak value. Now from this equation, V equal Where are we on? This one. Sorry. Right, V equals one minus this lot. Right. That doesn't affect the sign, that negative in the index. Mhm. Right, so this is always a positive number, so it's always one minus a positive number. That this this V here you can think of as V max. Yeah. Right. What's the maximum value That's If that V max This describes how it's nearly getting there. Mhm. It never actually gets there. Cos it's always one minus take away E to the Well let's say this thing here, T over C R, comes to about twenty three or something. Mhm. One minus E to the minus twenty three. Which is One over E to the million million million million sort of thing One over E to the twenty three. Zero by the time you get to about here Yeah, near as Yeah it's zero . Forget it. Forget it, it's not making any difference. So here or here or here it is really zero We can never say it actually is Yeah, it's so small it's not worth it. cos we've just got that ti but you could never show it on a graph, Mhm. very accurate. So Now here when T is small, let's let's say let's put let's put C R equal to one, they're only Mhm. a constant in your circuit, in your electrical circuit. Yeah. resistance and capacitance. So let's say. Curr capac capacitance Yeah I for current, C for capacitance. Okay? So. Let's rewrite the formula as something like V equals V max times one minus E to the make that one, minus T. Mhm. Yeah? I mean we could make that one, we could choose the R the R so that C times R came to one. Yeah. Okay? What happens here? well if T is nought, we've got one minus E to the Zero. zero. And what's E to the zero come to? Er Brdubudubum one. Right. So that'll be one minus one, comes to zero. That's good, that works . Zero. Which is right. Yeah. What about if T goes on for about erm one second, when it's going to be equal to V M one minus E to the minus one. What does E to the minus one ? One well, E to the one over one. Good. One minus one over E E to the one. to the one. We don't bother about the one, we just leave it one over E. And E is about three. So So one minus a third A third So after about sort of, after about one second, it's come up to about two thirds . So about Mhm. after one second it's come up to two thirds of V. Mhm. And what happens after two seconds? Well minus E to the minus two. And what does that mean, E to the minus two? Is one over E squared. Right one over E squared. One over E squared, take E as about three. So it's about one over One minus one minus one ninth. Mhm. Which is about eight ninths. Yeah. So after two seconds, it's got up to about Eight ninths of the way . Eight ninths of the way it's going. And the rest of the times it's you know, it's taking If we could keep going for It's just dwindling more and more and more away. We keep we keep going on for longer and longer but it's taking a lot longer for us to get any closer. You get most of your stuff done, sort of pretty instantly. So after three seconds, we On graph paper I mean that that's a good one for you to do on graph paper actually. Do Mm that one on your graph because it's a real application that will apply to your work and it's the sort of thing you're going to be plotting anyway. So you can still understand what's going on with these. Rather than just putting these numbers into your I mean you will put these numbers into your calculator, but do it with that, leave leave your C R out of it and just keep it as T. Mm. So if you kept C R fixed and you happened to fiddle them so it came to one, you could just You You're working out your graph you see you see then. Erm and when we get E to the minus three? Then it's one minus one over E cubed. Okay. One over E cubed and E is about three so twenty seven. So we've got about twenty six, twenty sevenths. Which is getting pretty close to near as dammit now . Right and if you take E as about say ten seconds Yeah. don't have to go that far, six seconds say. it's what, it's about ninety nine hundredth of the way. Well i is it? After six seconds W after six? One minus one over E to the six. Six. Eek. Erm well have a go see what three to the power os six Three to the power of six comes It's seven hundred and twenty nine. Seven hun and then do an inverse of that. Erm seventy nine Inverse. Erk. No that ain't right. It might be. No okay. Seven seventy nine It is. Inverse, Yeah so we've got by by It's it's something hideous. six seconds, we've got seven hundred and twenty eight, seven hundred twenty ninths of the way And twenty ninths Yeah so I mean, after a few seconds forget it You can say forget it. There's hardly any change. Mhm. So that's a that isn't a straight logarithmic curve, but that's a thing that occurs in nature a lot and in electrical circuits, that's a growth curve. The way it gets most of its growth in the first I mean, Few seconds. human growth looks like that as well. Yeah. Erm you get most of your you know you The amount of weight and height you put on from say, nought to six months and then six months to two months and by the time you've got to about eight or something. Mhm. Your half well your whatever age it is Yeah. measure kids at eight and say, Oh right you're going to be six foot two, you're going to be five foot ten. Mhm. Er because they know that on average unless things change a lot, that they they're following this curve this growth this growth curve. But try try E to the X as well. Y equals E to the X and Y equals log to the base E X. And and that wi with just one in. Erm and I think you'll I It's not you know, it's not about following all all this stuff all the technology stuff in Tech Mhm. engineering, science in general, physics, it's not Anyone can do the maths because you just put it in your in the calculator and if it Yeah. says erm he wants seven to the minus nought point six, well you just put you know, when you're doing X to the Y you put in seven and you put minus nought point six and you get some answer out. Mm. Well okay, fair enough. But then when you get things like that, Yeah. And this doesn't tie up with what's in the back of the book. You don't know whether this was right or not. No. But if you can look at that and think, Well minus so it's one over. It's one over E to the point three. What's point three, well it's about the cube root of three, or you could sort of try cube root of three Mhm. on your calculator. And then try one over that. Oh that's about the answer in the back of the book, so I must have just gone wrong on the last bit here. And you could you could go back and start working through all this again. If you So it's knowing where you are, having a good feel, like if erm if I say, multiply two hundred by thirty. Well let's say I multiply two hundred and twenty two by three hundred and thirty three. And you try it on your calculator and you get about fifteen billion. Mm. Or you get six. You say, That's obviously rubbish I've done Yeah. something wrong here. So you know to check it and go back and do it differently and it's the same with this moved up a level now, that you you keep in keep in charge of it. So let's have a quick look at your log integrals. Right. How do you feel about integrals and differentials? Erm the differentials I'm getting the hang of eventually. And getting there slowly but surely. Are you are you leaving it for a day and then trying to integrate them? Yes I am. Well what have you what have you done in term Have you got some you've done in terms of differentiating and then integrating back? Erm to be honest with you I think I've binned them now cos I cleaned up me room. Okay. I've only got a couple that I did last week. Doesn't matter. Erm try and do a few each week. Erm which are the most awkward things to differentiate? Erm Don't worry if you can't find any cos I have a bag full here of awkward differentials. I've only got a few books on differentiating. about we're probably due to finish, well we'll just have a quick look at this. Erm well there we are, here we are. How about this The awkward ones for me are when they start throwing stuff like er Like what, pick an awkward one out of that lot. An awkward one out of that lot. Is I wish Erm to be honest with you, I find them as awkward as hell. Where you've got a division in them. They do Okay. stump me. I must admit. They really do throw me Right so A quick sort of look at different patterns. to di to differ I mean it's it's it is no good sort of trying to go in in depth into the integration until you're really happy with the Mhm the basics. the differention Mm. differentiating. Because then, you just look at it and say, Ah I know how we got here, that reminds me of that one I did the other week where it came out looking like this. So I'll work backwards from that . I'll work backwards. Yeah. And you you you have to sort of attack it in that way. X squared over cos X plus sine X. You like you like the trig functions then? Oh I adore them. Erm Y equals X squared over X. I'll just close this over . Okay, could you differentiate that? Erm Write write the formula out . I'm thinking about If you're using the formula. Erm minus one so it's two X to the power of one, not very nice is it. Erm Do what would you do to get that? To get which bit? To get the whole answer. The whole thing? Yeah. Erm what I do is erm bump Okay so you differentiated the top part. Mhm. And then you drew your line and you differentiated the bottom part? Yeah. I'm not happy with that . Right. Is that what you do? No. Right what what Definitely not. Well if I gave you something like this erm Y equals X times X squared plus two. Three X two. How would you differentiate that? As a function of a function. Mm. . Now you could integrate it as a function of a function. If I said, integrate that Mm. Then you'd say, Ah D X is a differential of X squared. Mm. If I differentiated this I'd get two X cos the two would disappear. That's right right order. So I could integrate that. That's a that's that's one that might even be easier to integrate than differentiate. But how would you differentiate it. What what rule what methods do you know for differentiating? Erm well there's a few. Okay, there's a few, so name a few. Well I've got to the first one Right, that's that's just that's just the basic one Mm. for when you've got a simple straightforward of X. Like if I said, Y equals X squared plus two, you just differentiate it straight off by doing each term like that. Mhm. Right, and then some that we were looking at there was a function of a function. Right, now what other ways are there of of differentiating something that's awkward? Erm ch erm Well they have different techniques of differentiation like differentiation of part. Erm differentiation by substitution is it? No? Mm. Have you heard of products and quotients? Oh yeah. Oh yeah Right? of course. Sugar. Right? Yeah. Okay. So how would you differentiate that as a product then? Mm. Okay. Right and what does that come to? Right then. So it's X plus two three X plus three plus three X Okay and you want What does that come to? Good. Yeah by D X otherwise it looks as if it's just D Y Yeah Erm Right er X squared squared. . Yeah X squared plus X. Mm. Okay. Now I'll show you how I would differentiate that. Okay. Okay. You may prefer your method, if so, you're very welcome to use it. Three X times X squared Three X squared. Three X times two. Now I want to differentiate that. Differentiate X cubed, nine X squared. Sorry three X squared. Mm. Three X squared times three X squared X squared plus six. Mm. Which proves It's quicker. I'll give you that much, it's much quicker. right. Now this is is a really good way for a product. It works very well. Mhm. But sometimes they give you something like this and you say, Oh it's one times Especially Yeah. give you something like this, they might say erm,say, Four X squared minus one times two X squared plus three. can do it this way. Yeah. Or you could just multiply them out if you liked. Yeah? And then differentiate that. It doesn't matter, it depends on how big it is. If this was sort of a cubic or something then you'd have all sorts of terms and you could chance of making a mistake. But erm watch out for that cos sometimes it's easier to multiply out Hi. Sometimes it doesn especially if it's just one thing outside there, like it might have been sort of a a three X or Yeah. five X cubed or something. Just multiply it. Erm so right, if you get something then where you're integrating I'd like to sort of have a little practice this week of Have you done much practice of differentiating a product? Erm I did, but I haven't lately. Okay do a couple of products. I mean that was fine, you did that alright. Mm. Erm that was great. So just do a couple two of those and then Do you know the formula for differentiating a quotient? Erm It's a sim similar except it's minus over V squared. Wow brilliant. That was great. The only way I can remember it, that way round . Yeah erm most people just get lost in this and sort of finish Yeah. up looking it up. Well, what happened with me was, when we got taught it, he Yeah. started off doing them like this and it was U D V by D X Mm. I'm slipping out Graham . Mm erm Okay. leave these coppers for this gentleman here . Mm. Oh yes. Okay. We got it Thanks very much. this way round. Okay, what did he give you?. Are you sure? No that's fine. Thanks. Oh . Well I think you've done very well actually. We've covered a lot tonight that I was saying other people erm could take three lessons to cover it pick it up very well. Good. Thanks very much. How how do you feel about it? I feel fine ploughing through it though yeah . Did you you know, did you get it Mm. you're not sort of ploughing through you're you know, you're picking it up and your bringing it I like the way you the way you're assimilating it. Mhm. That you're not sort of, Oh just I'll memorize this lot. But you're understanding it and you're fitting it in with what you already know. Which is the only way to do it. Mhm. You're building up a knowledge base, you're not just building up lots of odd facts like you know, how many people live in China, or Mm. You try to memorize them you're you're making them mean something. So if we g let's say if I gave you something top integrate. Mhm. Right, if I gave you er something like that. Let's say we'd started off with three X X squared there. Right. let's say let's say I just gave it to you like that. Yeah. Right. I gave you that and I said, Y equals that, now integrate it. And you sort of spot this connection here. Yeah two X And and the X And squared. And that. Mhm. Say, that one's Well if that one was if that one was U that would be D U or if this one was V, that would be D V and Mm. D V by D X Sorry to be a nuisance. No you're no problem. We're off Graham okay, we'll see Right. you later, we won't be long. Okay. And do hang on a minute don't go don't go. Do you want to go out with them? Or is it just to do the shopping? Oh no no No? Okay. I mean we're about finished anyway. Erm so if I gave you something like that to differentiate Mhm. you'd say, Oh that's yeah. That three if you differentiated the three X you'd get the three. If you differentiated the X squared, you'd get the two X. So if I gave you something to differenti to to integrate To integrate. If I gave you something to integrate that looked like erm say it had a sine X, I know you like those. Yeah, right. Right. So instead of the three, let's let's leave the two X exactly as it is Mhm. and leave that. But here instead of the three X, had X squared plus two plus two. So X squared plus two times something add something times two X. Okay Mm. differentiate the two X, you get that. And in in there if I had sine X, Mm. and in there, Cos. cos X. Now you say, Oh okay, maybe er Now don't forget you're integrating so you're going to have problems with the sine. Er when you differentiate a sine you get a cos. Differentiate a cos you get a minus sine. So when you integrate one And the best way to Mm. do it the best way to do it if you're trying to say, let's integrate cos X. cos cos X. Trying to integrate that you say Mhm. well just forget trying to integrate it. It came from a sine didn't it? If I differentiated a sine, I would get plus cos right okay . Mhm. So it does integrate straight back to that. But if I was integrating a sine, it would have come from a cos and the cos should have given me a minus sine . Minus sine. So integrating sine will give me minus cos. And Yeah you can get th I've seen people spend sort of quite a few minutes going round in circles and give up on that when they're nearly at the answer. Mm. The easiest thing is if you can just remember one. Just one. Just one of them it sticks . And and and work from it instead of trying to remember the whole rule. So to integrate. It's cos X brackets X squared plus two. Cos you just pull them out of the first brackets of each one. Right. There's U and there's V. Right, so unless you have practised doing a few, integrating U times V Mhm. you won't spot that because this is You won't spot that. this is about, Ah I've seen something like that before. And it would be absolutely laid out on a plate for you like that. Oh no. It might be the other way round, it might be You have to twist it about a bit. minus one, it might be you know erm for example that might be. It wouldn't be given as a cos X two X, it would be given two X cos X. Mm. So you'd have to start looking for these patterns, but you need to build up to those, build up your experience so that you've seen them. Do a couple of products. Mhm. probably do a few. Do a few products and then, leave them for a few days and go back and integrate them. And try and Mm. And you t you'll find sort of quite a few examples of products erm So one day, say, do a few normal type products, next say, put some sines and coses and and gets Mm boring after a while doesn't it if you don't have sines and coses. So put some sines and coses in. Mhm. Differentiate those. And then sort of set those two on the side and then go onto products Sorry, quotients. Quotients yeah . And do the same. Differentiate a few quotients, get the hang of it, throw in a few sines and coses. Okay, and then by the time you've done that it'll be time to go back to the start Yeah. and start integrating your products. Integrate your simple products, then integrate the products with your sines and cos and Mhm. then integrate your quotients. The an the result of getting the quotient and by the time you get to looking at those you'll integration's hard and you will not ever say again what you said to me a long time ago that you thought integration was a lot easier than differentiation . Mm. I thought, There's something you're missing there if you think that. What do you think now then, which would you rather do, differentiate or integrate? I think the differentiation now I'm beginning to Especially especially understand it better . Especially if I'm going to sort of give you things like Y equals erm cos E to the minus K X. I mean it's only a simple one. It's only a simple one . Yeah. It's not a real thing. And I could be throwing but it's the sort of thing that's gonna come into your circuit stuff. Yeah? Yeah. If you've got phase diagrams and you've got V and things varying. And some fi sine functions and it's not a straight . It's not a straight sine thing, it's erm another curve a lot. A logarithmic decay, sort of thing, a rat's tail cap Oh I know what you mean, yeah. Capacitor discharging over over running the opposite way and then that's not drawn properly but you know what I can see what you mean, yeah. You've seen it before you know what's It's going down and every time it goes down it's equal on both sides yeah. Yes. Gradually gets dies down to nothing. It might be a very tight thing that looks almost like this. Yeah. down to down to Gone in no time. So you've got plenty to do, now Right. we I try and cover what we can in the lessons Not so much what we can but what I think is the right amount for you. Mhm. Erm and it's up to you then to plenty of time through the week I know you've got nothing yeah. else to do. No You've got ab there's a lot of work in this Mhm. erm but the more understanding you have, there will almost certainly come a point in in your course when Mhm. people start throwing stuff at you, developing a whole new topic and you're lost from the start. I mean you know, there's some some concept of a model which just escapes you. It it happens to everyone. Yeah. It happened to me when I was sort of looking at some sort of electronic engineering that I wasn't supposed to be doing I was just looking at it for interest like Well I'd like to have the time to spend on that but I'll leave that thank you very much. You know . You can keep that. So you can you can get lost because you don't understand the notation, cos you don't understand the model or because your maths can't keep up with it because you're not you know,E to the Yeah. E to the minus nought point three. So the more the more that you understand,the less you're gonna be Yeah. So you've got plenty to do. Mhm. I'll leave you to get on with it and I'll Okay. get on . rushing about doing things today. next week . That's yours that's your pen too isn't it. Yeah. Right. My pen. I lost a pad somewhere the other week with some It wasn't important notes but some notes in. print out again.. not a bad idea. Mm. Graham, Monday or Thursday preferred. Right then! Leading on from last week we were looking at menu planning and I actually asked you to bring in some menus. Who actually managed to get a menu? Yep! Yeah. Right, let's have a look! Well that's a shame innit? What? Somewhere. It's only you ! You might want to use those a little later. Yeah. Right, hold on to them cos you'll want them a little later right? Right! Can anyone tell me what the four most common ones are? Yep! Yep! Yep! Er, plat du jour. Right! Okay then. What do each of those mean? Suzanne? Erm the table d'hote Shh! Shh! Shh! Shh! is er a choice out of the main course is a choice out of two and everything else is set. Or is it a choice of two for each course? Your telling me? It's a choice out of two for each one. Right. Erm, the er cote du jour is a set menu. Yes it is, can you expand on that? Er er No. Set price menu. Yes, the price would probably be set. So, I gave you two examples and I said that it was often Chef du jour. Yes! Good! Well done! And Set budget. It was set which to er and it looked different. It usually the chef's speciality. Okay. Erm Gareth! The other two are? She's covered plat du jour and table d'hote. A la carte 's er wide choice of choice of food. Has to wait for food to be cooked and prepare to wait for it. Okay. Did anyone get er er an example of an a la carte? Yeah. Right! Okay. Hold on to those. I want you share those with the group shortly. And the other one is please? Okay. And what exactly's that? What am I gonna get for my money for that? Erm Continental. It is continental. What do I actually get? What is the way? Oh accommodation. Accommodation, right! Can you just check that we took down the following. I think that we actually just had time to talk through these and you didn't actually make notes. We did! Yeah we did! You've actually taken notes? Yeah. And you did that? Yeah. Right! Wonderful! I was just a little curious and she seemed to be er Oblivious to ! . And you actually took that down. Yeah. Yeah. Right! Wonderful! Okay then! Continuing with the menu and when planning a menu the points to be taken into consideration are David! David . Okay? What things do you think you need to consider then when you're putting together a menu? They like a lot of food that's popular. Popular food. Mm. Good! Choice. Appearance and choice. Nutrition Baked potato. Alright! Just one at a time! Nutrition. No, time. Go good balance. Who said balance? Me. Okay. Balance in what way? Well I mean, well that's it, you know selection of everything like the starch foods Is that balance or variety plenty of Variety. Don't know. Okay. Oh But you need a balance as well, like protein and If I put there balance. Yes, you're quite right! What else do you need to consider? Something that's very important that you need consider. Type of customer . Well done! You actually need to consider this person because, if you haven't got that person i.e. customer there's little point in having a menu unless you're going to sit and read it yourself! Okay? So you need to consider that very carefully. So first things first then the people for whom the meal is intended. And it can determine certain things Right! Type of food to be served and type and the number of covers. Why do we need to consider the type of food to be served? So people they always keep, the customers that always arrive if you're in a restaurant. You never know Yes. what type of . Can I have a look at those menus that some of you brought in did i , cos we've got some with a la carte did anybody get sort of erm a pub grub menu or No, you all went for the top of the range. Who's got the menu I've got a Beefeater one. Right! Where's the have one? Who had that copy er, a la carte? That's fine I'll give it you back I won't er I won't take it away from you! Martin! Who had the a la carte? That was from . And that was a la carte? Right! You hold on to that and you and you can, sort of talk it through. With that, hold on to that. Right! Can you give us the prices of, have they got prices? A la carte? That's right! Are you listening? A la carte then? Just give me a . In the erm the starters, melon in four ninety five avocado pear is five forty five frog's legs, ten ninety five and, that's the most expensive starter. Right. Erm, yep! And then it's soups starting at three forty five, five forty five and then it's on to main course. Fish, twelve salmon is twelve ninety five Dover sole is twenty two ninety five. Okay, you can stop there, that's lovely thank you! Right! At Pizzaland we can have starter for one pound thirty if we want! And, we can have a main for seven pound fifty- ish. Can you see the the range of price, but also obviously pizzas and command a lower price than things on an a la carte menu. Oh right, this is a fixed one. Good! We'll use that in a moment. Now so the type of food that you offer will reflect the type of establishment. You wouldn't really expect to get a la carte style food in a pizza establishment. Okay? What about the time, where do I put the time? Bearing in mind this is in relation to customers. Time of day it is. Yes, the time of day will depend of menu that you offer but what else will it consider? Time of year. Time of year. Food that is sort of Pardon? Things that are in season. Yes it will. But think of your customer. The time people go out to eat. The time people go out to eat. The time people will go out to eat. If you were going for a MacDonalds how long do you think it would take? Half an hour. Depends how much you eat, but assuming Alright, depends how much you eat. A Big Mac, some fries and a coke. About half an hour. Half an hour. Half an hour at the most Depends if your Right! Half an hour at the most. If I went and had a meal in the evening a la carte, how would you envisage it would take to go through that? An hour and a half. About I it it virtually, you're virtually going to use the evening. Number of covers. Depends how many people you're erm chef's actually cooked for at the time. Yes. Why would that reflect what you offer? Cos The time. How long it will actually be. How long the customer's actually sitting there for his meal. That's right! But also How many. How many it's for. How many actual people in at any given time. Tha that will reflect what you can actually offer. Right! All important cost. The amount of money that people are prepared to pay for the meal plus the overheads and the establishment. And I think we actually got that, somebody said price. Mm. David, a question to you! You said popular food did you not? Mhm. How, how would you find out what is what food is popular? Oh you gotta do it now? Pardon? Depending on the amount of people . No. So you're just going to compile a menu and you're gonna hope that Joe public likes what you've put on? No, you can put . Right. So you sort of do a survey? You do some research into it. Yeah. If you put if you compiled your menu and you then found out that certain dishes weren't being sold what would you do then? Take them off. Right. Good! Did I actually tell you last week about the feed back ? Yeah. Yes? No. It was the other group I mentioned. What you've got, you've got your customer we've got your menu feedback and you got your products. Right, so your customer has the menus you get some feedback, and the feedback you might need to modify your product which is really what David's just said. The fact that you would need to change your menu if it wasn't being used. That's quite important that you're aware of that. Season. And I think se several people did say that. Use foods in season because they're cheaper. Hot weather dishes not always suitable to serve in cold weather. Although, this summer I don't think it would of had much of an effect. Yes? Can I leave ? Yes certainly! That okay? Yeah. Right! I've also said that you need to consider the staff. Why? What type of restaurant it is. When you're putting yo together your menu why do you need to consider the staff? They can . Yes! Exactly that! Whether or the , they've got the ability to cook what you've put on the menu. It's absolutely crucial! What else? Serving. Yes, whether they can actually, whether they've got the skills to silver serve, if your menu requires that it's silver served then, then, yes clearly you would need to consider that. What else would I need to consider David? Well I think when you have the customers then you know what type of things once you've down you get type of people. If it's a high class restaurant then you prefer to people who know what they're doing. That's right. What else do I need to consider along with the staff? For the benefit of the staff also. We've looked at whether or not the staff have the skills to cook and serve, what else do I need the staff to be able to do? Who's worked in ki , sorry! Explain all the dishes so that the customer has That's right! Yes, they need to have product knowledge. Who's been in kitchen? Who's done production? Yeah ah! Right! When you actually went into the kitchen what type of things were in there? The sink. What else is in there? Equipment. Equipment! Did you know how all of it works? Did you use all of Not all of it. it? No. No. Yeah. Okay. That's something else that you need to be aware of. It would be no good putting together a menu that required certain equipment to be used and staff didn't have the ability to use it. And that is a summary of that. Another point there size and equipment of kitchen and dining room. It would be no good putting together menu and arranging to do two thousand covers if you've got spacing for twenty persons, would it? By the same token, if your equipment is small pieces of equipment then you would not have the facility to do a large volume of meals. If you think of it in relationship to the size of your cooker at home and the size of the convection ovens in the eighth floor kitchen or in they're much larger and therefore you are more able to cook volume. It's alright. When I'm actually choosing the dishes that I'm going to put on the menu what things do we need to consider? Er special diets, like vegetarian or Er yes, we would consider that. What else wha might we consider? You can take erm of how much it's gonna cost. buy in bulk. Yes. What things do I ? And that's one we'd look for in se , in season. But there's something else. We'll eat with our mouths but we also eat with what else Eyes. Our eyes. Our eyes, yes. So what do we have to think of when we actually compile a menu? Pardon? Colour. Yes we do. The colours. The colour. You need this information to do your exercise that you're going to do for me shortly. So, do not repeat the main ingredients. Avoid food the same colour. It actually gives you an example there. And think about the textures of food. Over here. Is that better? Can you see now? Yes. And something that you all mentioned nutrition. No. It's alright. If you were planning a menu which would you consider first do you think? Proteins Protein. vitamins, carbohydrates? When you're compiling a dish then? What would you do? Select chips and plan it round the chips? No. No. You'd plan it around the main course the main the main meat. Meat? Why meat? Suzanne? Because meat's the main . . Gareth? Which would you plan first? If you're planning a dish, which would you proteins, the vitamins, the carbohydrates. Protein. Protein? I say vitamins first. Vitamins, carbohydrates. No! All that meat's got a Pardon? All that meat's got a lot of Protein. Yeah. Yeah protein. Protein? Protein. Does anyone know why protein? Yes? Oops! Steady! Why protein? Erm it's the most beneficiary to the body. Yes! And also, you wouldn't want a piece of bro , broccoli! No that's iron! No,. No, to me piece of broccoli . People do! Yeah, but then it's Yeah. I if you've ever dieted then you'll be aware that you actually reduce the carbohydrates, but you need to retain protein and vitamins. Because those are essentials Right. for the the good order of the body. Basically. And therefore when you're looking at the nutritional value you need to be very aware of that. Yes. So you need to be aware of too many carbohydrates. Plan your protein first, vitamins and minerals second, and then your carbohydrates. Right, when you've completed that you have a menu compilation exercise in front of you. From the items in the list below prepare to luncheon menus. One menu should be a four course table d'hote with two choices for each course plus vegetables. And the other should be a set six course menu for a business lunch . You can't actually repeat any of them when, in your menu compilation. There is adequate there in ar order to be able to do the exercise. Now, based on the information that you've just taken down you need to give thought to the way in which you compile those. Off you go! You can do it within twos or threes. That's not fives and sixes, that's twos or threes! So David and Gareth and David and, I don't know your name . Terry. Terry. Terry. Right! David, Terry and You'll be all up, Kieran, Kieran you've got somebody behind you. Two. Two. Daisy you can join up there. Three. Yes. Group threes isn't it? Group of three. This group's three. Yeah. So you got to remem , you got to think of colour texture you can write all over the sheets if you want to. As long as you use the ones on the sheet and you come up with the two selection menus. Yes, put everything on it. Make out a from both? Well you've got to make that , I'm going to tell you, you need to think about it. There isn't a list so that you will need to sort of think it through. Are we not allowed to use the same things twice? That's right. Oh! And so if you use the whatever what is it you wanted to use in yours? Right so have a look,. It's actually quite helpful isn't it, to have Yeah. two or three, you can have a look at what they the way in which they're put together which why I . Right, well you , how you going to use it? Well I'm not going to actually tell you because I'll ruin the solution to this. So, if I start to tell you you need to think it through. Okay? So, it's,i it's not going to be as I . The things that you would get out . Daisy! That's better . It'd be certain things you would have as starters and then . How many, how many ? Right! Do you think I about the ? Yes. Well, have you got some ? Oh you can't use, you can't use your No you can't use anything twice. No. Can't use anything twice. I ,yo i , I mean if you use in one . Well, I shall be interested to see what you can get. You've found a certain Paul? Yeah, but I mean . Can we erm does it have to be all on here or can we use ? Sorry? Can you copy that and just what's on there? Can you put to it? No you can't! Right! No, we're not gonna take forever . Can you put, add things? No! Copy it all down. I haven't any . There is a solution! We can't use the same things twice? No, you can't use the same thing twice. You can't use the same thing twice and coffee doesn't count as a course! Just put it you you'll need to get that so what's the problem? Well then it'll be a course on it's own. Impossible! You've gotta get haven't you? You've got to think about it! Cheese and biscuits ? Cheese and biscuits can be a course. Could we have, er ? Can you? You tell me! Yeah. And don't forget you're thinking of colour texture So you've got set menu and you've got table d'hote menu. Right! Well that's got a starter and it's How you doing? Just the starter now cos she's . Let's see. What's it called? Erm . Pardon? Please worry about listing them. Right. than one, two, three, four, five, six. Take a look at those. Well your table d'hote. That's not the choice is it? It, it actually says to you two choices for each course. Read the instructions! Yes Colin! You had a six on table d'hote, you've got give me three choices. As you long as ? Yes you can. Do you have to use all the vegetables? I think you'll probably be able to. Yes. Bearing in mind you're looking for colour and . It's possible to use all the items. Keep in mind one quarter. You got it? I'm glad there's ! Right! Did you all manage to complete it? Yeah. Right! I want you to bring it in it's completed state to next week's lesson please? So, whoever you're working with Shh! Shh! Shh! Whoever you're working with you need, as a pair or a three-some to bring the solution with you next week please? Also, Shh! Shh! Shh! Shh! Also you will need to bring menus with you next week for comparison. Right! If there's anyone in your group that suddenly reappears they need to see Sally for their assignments. Your Royal Highness, Ladies and Gentlemen my name's Rod I normally masquerade as the Chief Racing Coach for the Royal Yachting Association but I'm not here in that capacity this afternoon but the coordinator rather a grand title for the Year of Youth Sailing and I've been asked to give you a short ten minutes or so briefing on where we're up to with th this project this year erm I know there are many familiar faces around so I apologize to those of you that may know some of this information already. We're already eleven weeks into the year and er so my talk's gonna centre on what we've done so far and what we expect to happen. The idea came in nineteen ninety two, the early part of nineteen ninety two er from Doctor Frank er who was er sitting on the Race Training Committee who approached it from the point of view we need to obviously broaden the triangle on the competitive side. And very quickly talking about it amongst the staff and er the other committees it would seem that it ought to have a far broader remit than just on the racing side so the first thing that I'd like to emphasise is that this year of youth sailing is involves all the outgoing grass roots divisions of the R Y A, that is windsurfing, racing, training and the development divisions and the regions and the clubs and the recognized teaching establishments, so it really is an all encompassing er er scheme. All types of sailing boats as well, I know that it's easy to think of that we're only dealing in optimists and toppers er but all types of sailing boats and all abilities, both disabled, youngsters and all types of organizations. The aims which I put up there, I won't go through each one, I think are hopefully fairly self explanatory, the, some of those are going well and some of them still need a hard push, a hard push from us and a hard push from the clubs and the teaching establishments. Those of you that have children or er are involved in education in any way at the moment will be well aware of the cut and problems that are going on er within reorganization within education in this country at the moment and I learnt to sail through the National School Sailing Association a long time ago er and thousands and thousands of youngsters have done that over the years. That Association in common with outdoor education centres are under severe pressure. My view is and it's a widely held view within the association and, and the informed clubs is that if we let that situation go on and do nothing about it we will have a decreasing er number of people going and number of people going sailing. Not now, not next year but in the next twenty years so there are a problem with schools, there are problems, I think, with changing leisure habits er people, the way that people take their leisure has changed over the last twenty years and not always have clubs, organizations and sailing schools taken account of that in, in their programme, especially with youngsters and I have to say I also believe there is apathy in some clubs and other organizations, not every club has an active youth sailing scheme and I believe that any club that doesn't either must be extremely popular because of its er prices of beer or, or some other reason or it may not exist perhaps in twenty years' time, so I think it's an ext extremely important topic brought about by the maybe, without being melodramatic, some of the stuff that we're reading in the papers about youngsters these days but looking at it from a purely selfish sailing point of view if we're to get more youngsters into the sport even if we're to hold our ground we've got to make a big effort over, over this year and, and it's important make sure that it runs on for future years. Okay how we're going, how have we attempted to deliver the goods to the population at large? As you can see, so far six hundred organizations have registered with us and what we've done is put them in a rather, rather flash booklet and the idea is that youngsters, their parents, teachers, youth leaders, scout leaders, anybody, gets hold of one of these booklets and in it, it tells them how to go sailing. There is one basic thing that they need to do, they or their parents, that is pick up the telephone and ring a contact, that's all they have to do because within here there are people ready to receive those er t telephone enquiries and get the youngsters on the water. Many of them free but not all. There are, different clubs have different policies and we haven't laid down what way they should go. We've, we've got the erm, we've got the six hundred organizations running so far about three thousand events, probably a few more if you count every single er course that some of the training schools are running but in terms of key events I'm very confident in being able to say there are three thousand events running around the country about half of which are new and that's the important thing so about fifteen hundred new and inaugural events that didn't go on last year or the year before Belinda the R Y A Public Relations Officer has been coordinating the public relations campaign and these days to get the young pe young people and those young people whose parents don't sail because it's to get at the people whose parents do sail, you've actually got to get in the media and er we've been on Blue Peter, we've been on Going Live another children's programme on a Saturday morning and and we have done other things that you see up there already and we aim to do more and get into specialist magazines like the Young Telegraph. The probe problem is having had a big initial launch the reality is that we're now going to drip feed the P R throughout the year and there are several good stories coming up which I'm not gonna tell you er that we hope the, the national and local press will pick up on. It's obviously very important that some stories are big enough to break if you're lucky in the national media but more important each of the clubs and sailing schools can get it in their local events because they're only too happy to take er provide the stories . Ha the information that we've put out so far were our second reprint of the er of the black booklet of which there'll be twelve thousand, they are quite an expensive item and, but our feeling was that er in order to sell the thing you've got to do it properly and er spending money doesn't come easily but er er in order to market the thing er thought that was the, the way to go and we've done other things, stickers and badges and posters and so on and so forth, the normal sort of things but we've really tried to spread these around the country and get the message that it's a vibrant young er interesting fun thing to be involved in for young people. We tested this out by taking it around the office and the people in the office thought it was a bit boring we er thought it was great for the youngsters who probably like it so er erm and the merchandise we've actually, we've made up certain things, T-shirts and, and, and wacky items that again er relate to, to young people so that they get into the, the, the theme of the thing and the, the whole year carries forward on a, on a certain colour theme and, and, and so on, so er we've done our best as sailing coaches not only learning to be marketeers again the money, where's the money come from? Well we were lucky in that we've been able to do, have a, a very good relationship with a company called well known in the marine side and they put in forty five thousand pounds into er the scheme and promised that before Christmas and that was reading the paper one day in November the, the Robert the National Heritage Minister saying that they may be, may, if you're lucky, going to put some money into sport and er so we contacted them and we were one of the first sports to get, had money doubled as they say in the bingo hall, so we er we now have ninety, ninety thousand pounds and which I wh has been distributed or will be distributed in the, in the following way so that's how we're gonna spend it and er these er, the administration represent we were basically overwhelmed with enquiries and s we took on a person in order to, to do it, the normal R Y A staff had already got enough on so we took on a girl called Sara who answers all the queries on the Year of Youth Hotline and erm we are also running the boat shows, the four or five N B L challenge which is the flagship event for our sponsors which is er I won't go into the, the details but is a, a talent fight, talent spotting event for under sixteen year olds around the country and it provided fleet of dinghies, the prize for which is a dinghy which is not, not a bad prize I think you'll agree. Information and promotion I have spoken to you about and the most important thing probably for the users besides us being able to promote what they're doing for nothing and that is grants, so we are about to write and er you will be able to hotfoot it back to your clubs if they are already registered. We are about to write to every club that's registered with us, tough on those that haven't, er that to er to, to, to come and er er fill in a form and get grant aid. We're talking about hundreds, not thousands here because there are six hundred clubs, so we're talking, but I think though we, we hope to be able to give significant amounts of money to pay for perhaps safety boats, perhaps instructors, perhaps rescue boat fuel, enough to kick-start these courses off which is important and those forms are going out at the end of the week and when the money's gone we'll stop giving the grants out. Okay. So what's the message we're trying to get across, what's the message you're trying to get across? Cos that's the important thing I think. So often we at the National Authority seen to be selling something which may or may not be you and the clubs er and the Class Associations round the country thinks important. I hope you think that this is important more important to you as it were than it is, is to us because you the clubs and the sailing schools really really must take these sorts of messages on board, not perhaps all of that list there but I would pick out erm that the message that we want to get across to young people, I would pick out the words fun, the words challenging, the words safe, alright. Many people who have not been sailing before, many parents are worried about their youngsters, think that it's dangerous and whatever and we have all this information, we have all these checks, we have a wonderful education scheme er within our own organization in this country and we should go out and sell that and I think we, a lot of it's going on already and I don't decry that and we need to just market that a little better to get more youngsters on the water because once we get more youngsters on the water the pyramid gets wider, the building gets higher, so that's an important issue well okay well just to wind up, I mean I've been involved in this and people within the R Y A and the office for a good six months now and we fell well down the line, the reality is hardly any courses have started yet and there's hardly any youngsters been on the water. I thought driving up today would have been a good day but the reality is that it is not going to start until Easter time. We've done a profile of the courses and guess what they all happen in the school holidays, so this isn't, this isn't over yet in fact for all the user groups, for you, the clubs and the organizations, it really does need a push from you, you must by and large are the deci decision makers, the club officers and I would ask you urgently whether or whether or not your clubs already got its name on the list, to actually support the people within your club that are laying these things on. If there isn't anything being laid on, chase it and perhaps get something laid on this summer in the holidays and whatever. Erm I think it's, I hope you'll agree, that it's absolutely essential and, and I hope that you, your reward will be the smiling faces of the youngsters when they come off the water during the year. Thank you very much. Commodores, Ladies and Gentlemen before we commence the business of the Annual General Meeting I'd like to remind members of the very great honour that was bestowed upon the Association at the end of last year when we were granted the right to wear the red ensign defi defaced with the crown. This is a quite unique privilege as the list of clubs and organizations granted the right to wear special ensign was closed several years ago. The Secretary of State for Defence reopened a list as an exception to allow the Association to mark the fortieth anniversary of the accession of Her Majesty the Queen, our patron, to the throne. The ensign is flown at R Y A House and can be worn by vessels directly employed on R Y A business. I would now ask Her Royal Highness as our President to mark this very special award by unveiling our ensign to you the members of the R Y A at this A G M. Your Royal Highness Thank you Ma'am. Well good afternoon Ladies and Gentlemen I am delighted to welcome you to the R Y A's Annual General Meeting if I may call the meeting to order and may I propose that for those who's convening the meeting printed on the front page of the annual report and accounts ninety, ninety one ninety two to be taken as read. Thank you. During the course of er this meeting you will hear from the Chairman and the Honorary Treasurer and we may well cover an enormous amount of the grounds that is relevant to you as commodores, members and officers of the Association and it might be worth, I am going to avoid what he's trying to avoid most of that area because I believe they cover it in greater detail and give you more of an opportunity to find out precisely what's been going on. This of course is post-Olympic year. Now there are occasionally criticisms from members that there is too much concentration on the elite end of sport in the Sports Federation in this instance the R Y A but what is important about the is an effort to produce a very high standard as a finished product so to speak to go to the Olympics but it also helps to concentrate minds on the bit that is missing before and help to recycle everybody's concentration into the training area and Rod has just been talking about the year of youth and of course it follows on very naturally in a post- olympic year to launch that year of youth. Not all of those people by a long way have any olympic ambitions but is nonetheless an important part of the perspective and indeed at the triangle that we need to support. That's the overall and rather special context of this year in, in the year of the youth but every year is an important from the point of view of commodores and clubs and the amount of work that ac goes on on the ground through supporting causes and the effort to recruit membership and it's in that rather mundane day to day part of R Y A membership that I would like to congratulate you first I think all of you have worked extremely hard and the reports reflect the success achieved and I would particularly highlight the increase in membership, now that obviously hasn't been easy and this does require a huge effort of, a consistent effort and it's not something you can just apply every now and again. Members don't tend to respond very well from that basis. This is a continuity and causing support for your members and that increase reflects enormous credit. I'll come back to that in a moment because we still only enrol a rather tiny proportion of those active in our sport but to go back to the point about training. Can I also highlight the fact that over a hundred thousand people attended R Y A training courses of one sort or another last year. Now it is something that you could find out for yourself but on the other hand it is there and I would like to highlight it and bring it to your attention. The other thing that tends to happen in post-olympic years is people look at rule books and different types of competition and there is a sort of atmosphere of I think we ought to change things. Well change is fine as long as it's done sympathetically and actually has some purpose. Erm it's a difficult balance, change is very rarely popular and quite often it's only ever talked about but sometimes it happens and even then it's not popular but a balanced and open mind is required to approach change but perhaps more important, and this isn't always mentioned, suggestions about change tend to come from rather specific areas and there are rather specific interest groups which may start the process of change the point about membership is that you ought to be able to comment on those suggestions of change and get involved with them on a broad basis. Er those sort of reactions, if we don't get them changes might happen anyway and you won't like them. It is very necessary to exercise membership, particularly in, in those areas, change can just as easily be motivated from your members not just special interest groups and it is important to look at it in, in the broader sense. Your officers has members from all over the country will try to apply a broad view but there are changes that will be necessary but they will attempt to do them in the most sympathetic and most broadly based way. Competitions are an important part of club activity obviously. For your younger members often very important but competition is part of the process. It is also part of the process of learning because it again concentrates their mind on what they need to do better fine. Take it on past, the sort of club competitions to major regattas and you come up against sponsorship. This in turn creates its own difficulties. At a local level sponsors so often are involved in the club on a more direct way but it isn't always seen as a problem and can be enormously beneficial to both parties. Sponsorship on a wider basis is much more difficult to manage. Sponsorship should of course be the icing on the cake, there should be enough in, in competition in regattas and themselves but people are interested enough to go and to support and that sponsorship actually allows you to do things that you wouldn't have been able to do otherwise. The danger of course is that sponsorship for itself, in itself becomes more important than the actual regattas. Th we must be able to learn from this period, particularly a partial austerity mm but these events are sound events in themselves and that we're not just doing it for the sake of the sponsor or attracting a sponsor and that it's not, in itself, completely necessary to have a sponsor otherwise the competition wouldn't exist. This is a difficult balance. It's going to be difficult for everybody but I believe that this is a period when again it rather highlights er the priorities in terms of what clubs and members actually want and what they are prepared to work for. On a slightly different theme, left to our own devices and left to the club's devices this Association and membership have always been very proud of our own record of educating and not legislating and that we have an ability er to instill in people a need to gain information and training along the way. From further afield there are going to be pressures to change that situation, particularly from Europe in either actual or proposed legislation. Th that for most of us would be very sad and it is your Association and it is the only substantial body that there's representing you as individual sailor but is attempting to fight off that unnecessary legislation. I need hardly say that that's not going to be done with courtesy of the odd telephone call. This requires real attention to detail and some concentration on, on that problem with experts who know how to deal with lobbying process in Brussels. There are a few people who claim even to know about the lobbying process in Brussels. I would have think it's probably still acclaimed but it does highlight a need and I'm not going to tread on the Treasurer's toes in this instant but certainly that will add to the financial burden of running the Association but if its to increasing its lobbying power and authority over those in positions of influence, then above all we do need a very large membership. Er it has been brought to my attention that the R S P B erm which I think you all know that, for one reason or another, can call upon the membership of eight hundred and seventy thousand individuals and our sport was something between two point five to three million active participants, slightly depending on the definition, has only about two percent as personal members of the R Y A contributing directly. I mention those figures, the need for a large membership is self evident and I know that you are making tremendous efforts to increase that membership. Some suggestions a that membership should be mandatory for those holding R Y A positions and appointments, well, that is certainly up for future debate but I do look forward to the day when our membership is truly representative at the individual level as it is currently at the club level and we w shouldn't forget that the R Y A is its membership. Well it doesn't exist by itself. Can I close by thanking Rod our Chief Racing Coach for what I thought was a very excellent presentation of the R Y A Ye Year of Youth Sailing and I have great pleasure in launching that initiative for ts er this year's Earls Court Boat Show again it seems horribly self evident that it's only through increasing the involvement of the young that we assure thriving clubs and associations and classes for the future but nobody up here is going to say that it's easy and I believe though that the work that the official, the officers and the R Y A put together will make it easier than it once was and I hope that the literature that they have put together and the programme that they have put together will be a help to all of you so please make use of it. That is one of the roles of your Association and it is what your membership fees go towards and it is there to be used and they've done their best so I hope it will come in very useful for you for this year and I wish you a very good year. well item one is the minutes of the A G M nineteen ninety two if there are any queries, may I have them now or I will take them as read and sign them. Thank you. To receive the report for the Council for the year ended thirtieth September nineteen ninety two. Can I ask Peter as Chairman of the Council to propose a doctrine of the report. Thank you Ma'am. Your Royal Highness, commodores, and members of the Association, may I begin my report by thanking you Ma'am for the time you have given to our sport, for being with us at our Annual General Meeting and for the address you have just delivered. We have a President who is charming, gracious and what is more important to me, a fellow sailor. We are indeed fortunate. Hear, hear Ladies and Gentlemen I will not waste your time by repr repeating my printed annual report to the Association which is on page four of your agenda papers. If you haven't read it you will have ample chance to read it at a later date and if you have, you would know what I was going to say. Our President has covered one or two major issues that concern us now and which will continue to concern us over the next few years. I can only emphasise the point that Her Royal Highness has already made on the requirements for us to have a much larger membership to allow us to speak with strong voice in the many debates we find ourselves involved on behalf of our sport whether it be windsurfers, dinghies, offshore sailing craft, motor cruisers, powerboat racing, anything that virtually goes on the water we look after. This must be the major object of the Association during my chairmanship is to increase our individual membership which we need so much to re to our representation at a high level. Her Royal Highness has also highlighted the R Y A year of youth sailing which she launched at the Earls Court Boat Show. The youngsters are our sea call of the future and we must grasp the initiative with both hands. As my hair turns grey and falls out I must also put in a plug for senior sailors with earlier retirement alleged increased time and affluence, it beholds us to pay attention to this influential body of citizens, perhaps next year Rod can organize a year of geriatric sailors. Our sport is for all this is not a slick statement of jargon but a fact, thanks to our boats sailors of all ages and all eligibilities can participate. Many people never race, just enjoy themselves pottering. We must look after not all of the sport, the high flyers, the starters, the beginners and those who just go out for enjoyment and potter. Your council occasionally suffers comments about the age of some of its members but the fact remains that to a man or woman your council members are current sailors or actively involved in the sport and this must be good for sport. Over the past twelve months it has been my great privilege to become more closely involved with those with disabilities, I have seen the enormous efforts being made to encourage participation at a very high competitive level as well as tremendous strides being made at many clubs to bring disabled people into sailing at all levels. This is an area where we can make much more progress and I'm delighted to see the advances that have already taken place. Those of you who have not yet started the programme for the handicapped, please join in and spread our sailing skills to all. Mention of sport for all reminds me of the tremendous debt owed for the volunteers of our sport. Over three hundred individuals give their time freely to support the R Y A where they are experienced on one central committee or another. At least a similar number give the same service to the sport in our thirteen regions nationwide. If one then adde adds the volunteers who man and manage the clubs, organized regattas and ordinary races, the bosuns, the rescue crews, the and other sailing schools and instruction that goes on all o all over place, the end the list is endless. The dependence of our sport upon these expert volunteers is clear for all to see. I would like to thank you all at this time on behalf of the Association and the sport we represent for all your efforts you make for us in an unpaid capacity and time given voluntary to all. May th the Corinthian spirit continue in our sport for many days to come. Our President has referred to many of the problems we currently face and will continue to come up against in the future. I will not dwell upon them but will re-emphasise what has already been said and ask you to give us all your support. We need an undivided sport, there have been a few occasions, sadly, when clubs and associations have followed marginally divisive lines as we attempt to represent the sport similar bodies which does not help our cause. We also need a large membership to further and strengthen already a very effective lobby within government, Europe and the sport. May I close by thanking Her Royal Highness, my colleagues on Council, all my friends in our sport and our Association as well as our very loyal and hardworking permanent staff for all their efforts on behalf of the sport. Before I propose the adoption of my report,willing to take any important questions or comments. As there seems to be no questions Ma'am, may I propose the adoption of the report. Your Royal Highness, Ladies and Gentlemen, I have much pleasure, not only seconding the adoption of the report but complimenting Council on an excellent which I did read. The equivalent meeting. Hear, hear Anyone against? Thank you. Right item three which is to receive the accounts for the year ending thirtieth September nineteen ninety two and report of the auditors. So before this motion is proposed may I ask Mr John of to read the auditors' formal report. Your Royal Highness, Mr Chairman, Ladies and Gentlemen. Auditors' report to the members of Royal Yachting Association. We have audited the accounts set out on pages eight to fourteen in accordance with auditing standards. In our opinion the accounts give a true and fair view of the Association's affairs at the thirtieth of September nineteen ninety two and of the surplus and cash flows for the year ended on that date and have been properly prepared in accordance with the Companies Act Nineteen Eighty Five and that report has been signed Chartered Accountants, registered Auditor. Thanks very much indeed. So may I call upon Chris , the Honorary Treasurer to move the adoption of the accounts. Thank you Ma'am. Er your Royal Highness, Chairman, Commodores, Ladies and Gentlemen, the accounts have been circulated and they are to be found on pages eight to fourteen with the report and there are copies around the room. I believe that the accounts, whilst complying as John has just told us with the Companies Act, do give, I hope, as full and an informative picture as possible and therefore I don't intend to talk about them in detail. The incoming expenditure account on page eight contains good news and bad news. The good news is that the surplus of a hundred and ninety three thousand six hundred and eighty seven pounds after tax is the largest ever in the Association's history. The bad news is that there were two hundred and thirteen thousand pounds' worth of non- recurring income items to reach that and this means that the Association's routine activities ran at a deficit of twenty thousand pounds or thereabouts. This is a small amount in relation to our subscriptions which reached one million pounds for the first time but it does pose problems. Firstly, there is an extremely long lead time before a subscription increase works its way through to our income and expenditure account. If there was a resolution on the agenda today to increase the subscription, and I hasten to add there isn't, but if there was then that increase by convention would take effect on the first of January nineteen ninety four but the full value of the increase would not reach our income and expenditure account until the year nineteen ninety five to ninety six and this means that we are not well placed to respond to short-term financial problems. The Chancellor yesterday very kindly did not put V A T on books and periodicals but had he done so that would have the effect of taking more than one hundred thousand pounds out of our accounts in the current year without us being able to do anything about it and it does seem to me that we should be considering asking the members in general meeting to pass to the Council of the Association the right to set and increase subscriptions and having properly advised the members thereof to fix the effective date of such increases, otherwise we are very badly placed to respond to short-term problems. However, the major problem, and you Ma'am have already touched upon this as well as the Chairman and I am sorry to be repetitive but we do serve all yachtsmen, two and a half to three million of them whilst being financially supported by only sixty five thousand of them. The only satisfactory long-term solution must be to secure a hugely increased membership of the Association. The R Y A doesn't need an enormous subscription income and so if we could increase personal membership to say four hundred and eighty thousand, which happens to be the aggregate membership of our member clubs, this could be at a very much lower individual subscription and this in turn would facilitate selling membership to the nearly two million yachts persons who are not members of clubs. I believe that we have got to go for this strategy if we are continue to fight the freedoms which are the root of our yachting. The alternative of higher personal subscriptions does not, I believe, hold out the likelihood of sufficient income to meet the mounting costs of protecting yachtsmen and their rights. Coming back to reality Ma'am and the balance sheet. The R Y A is financially strong, following from the good results of last year, the reserves passed one million pounds for the first time and those will enable us to continue with our work for yachting while we deal with the problems that I have touched upon. There is no need for any concern at the present time but the problems have got to be addressed because they won't go away. So Ma'am I have pleasure in composing the adoption of the accounts and I'll endeavour to answer any, answer any questions on them. Right, thank you very much er Chris fo and the proposal is from th the Treasurer, can I have a seconder please? Ma'am, may I have er pleasure to second the adoption of the accounts? May I have the approval of the Meeting? Anyone against? Thank you. report to you. Ma'am. Commodores, members, I have a great announcement to make, there have been no other nominations for President of the Association. I am pleased to say, therefore I would like to propose that her Royal Highness be re-elected with acclaim, President of the Royal Yachting Association. Thank you very much Chairman and thank you all very much and I do hope your members realize what you are doing up here. It's your fault. No it's I might, I would,take this opportunity to say how much I appreciate your hospitality when I have the opportunity to visit the clubs er it d they are always very enjoyable occasions and I much look forward to them. As you realize six hundred clubs, the chances of my getting round all of them, ha five hundred. Yes ar are not that good but I'm working at it on a sort of regional basis erm but you may have to keep me here for a very long time in order to achieve it. I don't suggest that I think I should keep going on a year by year basis. Thank you. Item five erm I'm also pleased to say that er Chris was the only person nominated to be Honorary Treasurer and it would give me great pleasure er to propose that he be elected Honorary Treasurer and may I have a seconder for that proposal please. Your Royal Highness South West Region. It gives me the greatest pleasure to second the nomination of Chris as the Honorary Treasurer. Thank you very much. May I have the approval of the meeting please? Thank you. Item six is the announcement of the results er the Council Election and I will ask the Secretary General to announce those. Ma'am the four elected by the life members of the order, Mr P J , P A , L M , and M . Er in the club's East Midland Region there was an election and Mr Garth was elected as the representative for the year. Er the remainder of the regional representatives are in the agenda and I suggest they can be seen there and not repeated here and if I may then go on Ma'am, Council asked that we would in fact announce the results of the windsurfing committee election at the A G M and again in alphabetical order a Mr , Mr , Mr , Mr , Mr and Miss Bill North West Region. I have pleasure in proposing that Messrs be appointed Auditors and the authority is delegated to the Council to fix the remuneration of the Auditors. Thank you and a seconder. Dr Frank Weymouth Sailing Club, I would like to second the proposition that Messrs continue in office. Thank you. Thank you, can I have the approval of the meeting. Anyone against? Thank you and may I add my thanks to for, for their work, very much appreciated and I know the Treasurer would agree, thank you. Item eight, may I ask Richard the Chairman of the Develop Divisional Committee to introduce and put the resolution to the A G M? Thank you your Royal Highness. Your Royal Highness, Mr Chairman, Commodores, Ladies and Gentlemen, I am not absolutely sure whether this microphone system will work if I stand what I do know is, however, that I would be a larger target for you and under the circumstance I will, if I may remain seated. Historically, the minimum subscription Association's affiliated organizations and clubs has been set that twice the personal member's subscription and after a period of two years' grace it's the Council's wish that this balance is re-established so that the relativity returns to that which existed prior to the increase in subscriptions that was proposed at the A G M in nineteen ninety one. Are there any questions of this erm resolution before I put it to the meeting? Thank you very much then I would ask and would put the ordinary resolution that the minimum annual subscription for member clubs, past associations and other affiliated organizations be increased from twenty four to thirty two pounds. Thank you Ma'am. Can I have a seconder? Ma'am I would like to erm second that resolution, I believe that the traditional two to one relationship is a reasonable reflection of the costs and that it would be sensible to restore the balance to that which it was before. May I have the approval of the Meeting? Anyone against? Thank you very much. now. Right as you know presentation of the R Y A awards. Is that in the way, I'll just move it out of the way . A citation for an R Y A award, Major Tom . The name of Tom has been synonymous with sailing in Weymouth longer than he might wish to remember. He inherited the same tradition from his father a founder member of Weymouth Sailing Club and its Commodore in the late nineteen twenties. Tom has been a member of Weymouth Sailing Club since nineteen twenty eight and has served in it and in many other clubs in almost every role imaginable. I understand the roles include bar steward, cleaner of the heads, layer of moorings, boat builder and commodore. His sailing background includes membership of the Royal Engineer Yacht Club, the Mombasa Nivasher Yacht Clubs in Kenya, sailing in Austria in the early fifties including building nine one design sailing dinghies with the help of Austrian carpenters. It didn't say whether they sold them or not, the Royal Singapore Yacht Club in the mid nineteen fifties and then back to Weymouth. From nineteen seventy three to nineteen ninety two he was Chairman of the Charities Committee of the Yacht Clubs of Weymouth and played a leading part in organizing forty eight championships including fourteen R Y A Weymouth olympic weeks as well as twelve world and European championships. He has been a member of the Royal Dorset Yacht Club for the past twenty three years and is now an honorary life member. The list of boats he has owned and sailed includes Weymouth One Design, Falcons, ex boat, victory class,sharpees , scripts, Achilles, R N S A dinghies, Yachting World Day Boat and enterprises. In recognition of a lifetime of service to sailing and in particular distinguished service of the national sport through Weymouth Olympic Week and various world championships the R Y A Award is presented to him, Ma'am, Major Tom . . A citation for the R Y A awards, Staveley , Staveley has roots that are more linked to the sea and the water than most of us. Born in the Clyde, not in it, with a seafaring background, he's messed about in boats from the start. His proper racing career began in nineteen thirty four as a regular crew on a twenty eight foot milne design. Apart from a short break for the war years, when he served in the Royal Navy, Staveley has sailed and campaigned throughout, presently racing in his Dragon. Following the War, Staveley also branched out into sailing administration. He is one of those individuals who has put even more back into the sport than he has taken out of it. He has served as Commodore the Cove and Sailing Club and of the Royal Clyde Yacht Club. He's been Commodore of the Royal Northern and Clyde Yacht Club and Vice Admiral of the Mud Hook Yacht Club. He led in amalgamating the Royal Clyde with the Royal Northern. He has been associated with the Clyde Yacht Club's Association for a quarter of a century and headed the team which organized the nineteen seventy three Clyde and National Regatta, the largest event of its kind ever held on that famous stretch of water. He was a founder member and later Chairman of the Scottish Council of the R Y A, played the leading role in the nineteen ninety one R Y A You World Youth Champions and is a past President of the then National Flying Fifteen Owners' Association. As well as years of service to the R Y A,Scot di R Y A Scotland, Staveley has twice served in the R Y A Council and has been a distinguished member of the Yacht Racing Divisional Committee. He is currently a member of the Racing Rules Committee, he's Chairman of the National Judges Committee and is an R Y A U international judge. The R Y A award is presented for this impressive record of service on so many different sailing fronts. Ma'am, Staveley . A citation for the R Y A Award, Philip , Philip is a past Chairman of the R Y A Powerboat Divisional Committee as well as a past member of the Central Management Committee and of the R Y A Council. Although he's no long he no although he no longer competes, he drove hydroplane at an international standard, was highly competitive and had many wins and top level events to his credit. He has been the national drivers' champion, the first national driver to exceed a hundred miles an hour with a five hundred C C hydroplane on Lake Windermere, won the B class championships seven times, the C class champion six times, the D class three times and the F class once. He has also represented Great Britain internationally on many occasions with conspicuous success. In the powerboat world his balance is a very active competitive career with service at club, national and international level in administration. He has been the Commodore of the Essex Hydroplane Club and Chairman of the R Y A Hydroplane Committee. Philip has been a member of the U IM 's Sports Commissions for many years and was the R Y A's delegate, the U I M, the international body for a similar period. He is Chairman of the UIM's Personal Watercraft Commission including Jenskies a particularly hot seat if ever there was one. He is still a very active member of the Powerboat Divisional Committee and is now in his twenty first year of continuous service to R Y A powerboat racing. Philip is an outstanding competitor and a very devoted and dedicated servant to his sport, who has given sterling service over many years. His record makes him an outstanding candidate for an R Y A Award. Ma'am, Philip . Right my item ten of course is Any Other Business. Is there any other business? I have to, I have to make it er perfectly clear that it is not part of the official business of the meeting. You're welcome to bring up wh c Your Royal Highness, Bob Blackpool Sailing Club. I think my question will make it clear that I do understand that. What I wanted to say was that when I read the Annual Report I was rather surprised to find that there is no reference to the er report of the committee under the chairmanship of Bob, Bob on the organization of the R Y A and then I realized that it probably didn't come to the Council till after the end of the year that we have under consideration but it did seem to me that it has some contentious and some very interesting and rather good points in it and I wonder if we could be told how the consideration of it is getting on. Thank you. Your Royal Highness, it follows to me er Council have debated the Riding Report er a lot of it they did not accept, many of the ideas were referred back for further reconsideration and that is in the hands of the Central Management Committee at the moment and we are proposing to develop the ideas and come back to Council and the wh whole report is not forgotten. In the meantime organization changes of a management kind have been put into action at Eastley, so that certain, certain changes very quickly can be made which reflect the spirit of the report for improved management but your officers and Council are still considering the items that they feel n er should be reconsidered refined and developed. I don't the membership will want a revolution but what we do require is that evolution considered carefully so we don't stand still and keep our head in the sands and I give you insurance that is what is, is happening. Thank you. Who was that? Geoff Suffolk Water Sports Association,probably manage, is that better? You'll be on the record that way Geoff. Oh dear I'm into this not famous er rubbish . Er Ma'am I think it would be helpful to pick up a point you made in relation to the R Royal Society of Birds, Royal Soci R S P B. I think many of us in the hall here er realize that we're probably the second largest users of the waters after the feathered variety and it's very encouraging to realize that er there are some, may I say, green members of Council and its committees er who are very foresighted. At a recent meeting of the, I believe the, first of the Estuaries Management Committee Meetings for the Orwell and the Stour I was approached by the R S P B representative and was delighted to be asked, how soon is the pamphlets that we're jointly publishing coming out and I said, oh that's a jolly good idea, what's happening, and he tells me that the R Y A's name is to be published with the R S P B and this can do nothing but help our image as we will all appreciate in here, perhaps we need to remember that the gun clubs call themselves, the Gun and Convers Conservation Societies, the wide wise wild fowlers call themselves the Wild Fowlers and Conservation Societies, perhaps we should be the Royal Yachting and Conservation Society and join in with that R S P B publication for I believe quite a very small sum relative to the total outlay. Thank you Ma'am. Thank you. So do No send, I think Chairman and erm cruising general purposes. cruising general purposes may have. Thank you Ma'am, I did er put this with, this request before Council and it is going through the er proper channels, shall we say, and we'll be going ahead. Thank you. Your Royal Highness, it is, it is, it is interesting that when I attended the Annual General Meeting last year of the Boats Organization, the fact that I said that yachtsmen was a Con Conservation Body as well surprised them and since that time we have having collaboration with them er more and more and this is to be welcomed because we all want to sail in nice surroundings. Hear, hear Roger Tollersbury Mud Club and I kid you not erm we are a group of beach crawlers it's following on from what Geoff was saying er and I think it's perhaps worth mentioning something about coastal zone management and estuary management. Erm in the last year or so, erm, one has been confronted with this idea which has been promoted from certain quarters that the water space is entirely unmanaged. All these people that tear about on the water on a Sunday don't know what they're doing and are in desperate need of someone to manage them. I have, however, pointed out that there are things like nautical charts, voyage systems, harbour regulations etcetera etcetera which is a form of management albeit self management. I will give you an example of what one might be confronted with in the future from, from a piece from the Environment Committee in the House of Commons' Report on Coastal Zone Planning and Management and it says here,we fail to see what is impractical about treating the seabed as submerged land an opinion shared by the Royal Town Planning Institute no less and if planning authorities can deal with issues like public rights of way, aggregate extraction multiple use on land, they should be able to cope with rights of navigation and extraction of sea . Now I have considerable respect for the House of Commons' Environment Committee but I think on this occasion they must have been tired and emotional when they wrote that. The point of issue is that estuary and coastal zone management is a reality and what seems to be happening is all sorts of different plans are popping up on various estuaries and Geoff knows them well now because he's been involved with the one on the Stour and Orwell and what is happening is that these are starting at local level so the first contact with sailors may be from a local authority or someone at local level. So it may be the Regional Association or perhaps the local estuary er Sailing Association is first contacted and what will happen er when one is contacted is that you will come into contact with environmentalists and conservationists and not all environmentalists and conservationists are quite as af affable and conciliatory as I am, some can be quite confrontational and therefore there will be the need for a considerable amount of lip biting and self restraint. Er in fact I think John perhaps ought to introduce a, a course of self restraint for estuary management negotiators erm so that they can have er some pre-training before they go into this forum. I of course will be, be available to er hurl abuse at these people so that they are fully trained and ready to handle the problems that might arise erm there is, however, cause for some er optimism and I refer specifically to the recreational page from the Estuaries Consultation Document from English Nature and in one of their er proposals and objectives they say encouraging self regulation and observance of Code of Practice by local clubs and groups to avoid clon conflict with and or disturbance to other users including nature conservation interests. Now if that is really saying to the water users that it's down to you, there are genuine concerns of conservation and I think they are, there is a real problem in some areas. The important thing is for people to listen to the genuine concerns, sort out the, the real issues from the power politics and then hopefully go forward in, in a, in a manner of conciliation. Perhaps in closing erm I would just er repeat with your permission Ma'am er a piece from your nineteen ninety er presidential address and it says,as yachtsmen we must care for the environment, it is fair to say that most do but images are created by the bad news. People who have grown up with the sport when the pressures were not too great perhaps do not always think of others. Our craft are mostly environmentally friendly and those with craft that are less so will have to think seriously about improving them. I feel that if we are not careful, outside pressures with no understanding of people's responsibility in their own areas would get involved which would be a shame from everyone's viewpoint . I think that's extremely true and extremely sound advice and I hope we can go away today bearing that in mind. Thank you. The questions. Was there a question? I was rather flabbergasted that anyone had paid any attention to what I had said. Excuse me for that er actually erm and I am grateful to you for pointing out really an area which is always going to cause erm a degree of difficulty. I rather like your idea of a course. I think it would come in useful for people in, in all sorts of areas erm particularly with planners but there is no doubt, and I, and this is no joking matter, that there are an awful lot of agencies of one sort or another who are finding that they are actually having to get on with other agencies. In some areas this is called multi-disciplinary which is a good word but it, it's a bit formal but it does, it's just as difficult for them, everybody's been used to w functioning in their own little areas under their own headings, not least of course the bureaucrats who are particularly good at it because it makes life easier. The exercise of cooperating with the other people, even though they're in the same relative area than in this case it may be use of facilities for leisure, is not very easy and there may be a very very good cause to have a proper course in how to get on with other people, in these sort of cooperative ventures, so thank you for, for drawing our attention to it, it is an interes would be an interesting exercise to . Was there another hand up over Your Royal Highness, Chairman, Commodore, Commodores, Members, I'd like, if I may, to say a few words on behalf of the R Y A Seamanship Foundation. Now this is your charity, it's called the R Y A Seamanship Foundation and it does have close links with the R Y A but it is independent and is d is dependent upon raising money from donations and other sources like that. We have had a very good year, thanks to the indefatigable Bugs sitting behind me, who is either fitting the boats out or going to New Zealand to win races or taking Guide Dogs for the Blind sponsored trips round greek flotillas er everything comes to him readily. We have had a wonderful year. In New Zealand er our team got a gold and a silver medal in the World Blind Sailing Competition and if you think of what that is in that was involved in achieving that er it is a very great matter. Much thanks to John and many others in the R Y A who helped with training and preparing er that er expedition and then in the World Disabled Championships in Barcelona, Kevin who has one of our Challenger catamarans, in which he's been national champion seven times. He won the gold medal there thanks to and a rather curious operation of the rules. I think it's fair to say he's the first one to acknowledge that but he did win the gold medal and as a result he became yachtsman of the year and at a time when there is very a much heightened interest in the problems of disabled and people with visual impairment it was a real boost for sailors who have those problems that we did so well during the year. Another very important factor was that at the Boat Show the R Y A announced that it was taking responsibility for the national coordination of all activities er for sailors with special needs, that's blind, deaf, disabled and there are many organizations who are working in this field but the R Y A is the coordinator. Now the trouble is that we have been the victim of those successes. The charitable world as a whole, as I'm sure many of you know, has been severely hit by the recession er our donations received this year are dramatically down on last year's and we operate on a shoestring but the provision of teams to go round the world, the provision of training, even with all the help we get from the R Y A still costs a lot of money. It would be absolutely disastrous if after the excellent work that's been done this year we were not able to maintain that. So what we have done is we have started something called Sailathon which is a word that Bugs made up erm and what it is is it's, it's an attempt to get yacht clubs, sailing clubs all round the country to do something themselves for the Sea Mission Foundation. We don't mind what it is, it might be a parent race, it might be a barbecue, it might be an auction. I hope it will be in all your club bars one of our bottles, we have distributed special bottles er sailor proof bottles I hope they are er which you put money in er very simply without any impediment and I do hope that all clubs will use those bottles and, and gather lots of money. Now we've distributed to over a thousand clubs. We don't need all that much from each club to keep us afloat but if we don't get your help, I am very concerned that in the present recession we shall not be able to keep up our work and in conclusion Your Royal Highness perhaps I could just say that the Seamanship Foundation is very grateful to the R Y A, to the Treasurer, Chris and particularly to the Senior Managers who have done everything they can to help the foundation, thank you. Thank you very much well it's always a pleasure to hear of about the Seamanship Foundation and I'm sure that, as you might be saying, and er the need for the foundation's fundraising will be rather heightened this year as a result of last year's drop but I'm equally sure that you will get a tremendous amount of support from the members and on that note which I think is er also is an important method of concentrating our priorities and on the basis of we're extremely lucky to be able to pursue a really very enjoyable pastime with relatively few problems and that if we can get those opportunities to many more, who would otherwise not be able to enjoy and in fact frequently don't get to enjoy any other pastime, we should endeavour to do so and consider ourselves lucky that we can. Thank you. There are no more questions. Your Royal Highness sorry , Your Royal Highness er before we, we ask you to close this meeting I would like to ask our members to show their appreciation for the wonderful way you have chaired this Annual General Meeting, for your presence here and the gracious way you support the sport throughout the season. Will you join me with acclaim for our President. Thank you all very much indeed and thank you particularly for making an effort to come and join us at the A G M, apart from the fact that it would be tedious in the extreme to look at an empty room, I do understand that it's easy and it's never quite the right time for everybody and this is er tremendously widespread. We do appreciate the efforts you make to come to the meeting and in case you were worried the bar will be open in the Oak Room now. My Lord, My Lords, I beg leave to ask a question standing in my name on the order paper My Lords, Her Majesty's Government takes every opportunity to promote good quality religious education in schools. In particular local authorities in England and in Wales are required to review to their agreed syllabuses for religious education the school curriculum and assessment authority has been asked to develop model R E syllabuses, a new circular has been issued to give guidance to schools on their duty to provide religious education and the inspection system will monitor and identify any school failing to do so. My Lords, I'm grateful for that helpful and encouraging reply erm would the Noble Baroness agree that many teachers do not feel, who are not specially trained in this area do not feel comfortable delivering the R E syllabus. Could she tell the House what action is being taken to ensure an adequate supply of suitably trained teachers to deliver this important and sensitive subject? My Lords, the, the point made by the Noble Lord is that it is an important one erm it is important that teachers do feel comfortable with this subject and to that end the erm grant for education support and training is making money available and religious education has been added to the number of subjects for which it can be made available to help with er improving specialisms in schools, but also pr improving co-ordination for religious education in schools. My Lo Lords, is the Minister aware that er er a survey of the Religious Education Council in nineteen ninety three found that more than half of the those teaching religious education in secondary schools have no formal qualifications in the subject. Would she accept this figure which is lower than any national curriculum subject is bound to affect the quality of R E teaching and er can she give the House an assurance that this matter will be addressed urgently. what I can say to the Right Reverend in response of that particular survey. First of all there is no overall shortage of relig religious education specialists, both in terms of those recruited to i erm initial teacher training and those employed within the schools. It is true however that the January survey which is erm which took place very recently erm, there were only fifteen vacancies in the subject in this in the country overall, it's also true to say that of thirteen thousand one hundred religious education specialists in the country, only half of them were actually teaching their own subject. So it's not a shortage of specialists, it's a shortage of the erm importance both L E A's and schools give to the subject and make sure that the specialisms are used in the right place. Er can the Minister in fact, I mean following that question, can the Minister say in fact how many teachers are teaching religious education in private schools are not in fact quali qualified for the subject at the moment. My Lord, the number will be a great many, primary schools teachers are of course spe er generalists not specialists and a primary school teacher with only religious education as a specialism would be disadvantaged quite seriously in having to cope with teaching maths and English and science and history, geography, art and music and so on. What is absolutely erm essential is that we do more to provide good quality support teaching materials and advice and that the grant that I mentioned earlier is made full use of, so that specialisms and co-ordination can be much improved in primary schools. My Lord, My Lords, to what extent is the teaching of religion in primary schools confined to the religion of the er, er to which the child has been accustomed, has been brought up, erm and er would it not be better if, if it were confined in that way and if the teaching of other religions were postponed until the child were older and in the secondary schools? Hear! Hear! My Lords, I can give My Noble Friend an assurance that Christianity as the main traditional religious tradition of this country will be taught at every key stage, both key stages er at key stages, one, two, three and four and that er knowledge of other religious is also a requirement, but I can also say to My Noble Friend that model syllabuses have just been released for consultation and there is a real concern which I share with My Noble Friend that young children at the ages between five and eleven are required to cover too many religions and that's a question that will be covered during the consultation period. Does the Noble Lady agree that this subject is different from all the other subjects. It isn't merely a matter of training and qualifications, it's a matter of religious commitment as well and most teachers nowadays take the view that to try and teach this subject without that religious commitment is sheer hypocrisy. Hear! Hear! That is the problem. Hear! Hear! Hear! Hear! Hear! Hear! But I think it's important to make the distinction, learning about religion or actually teaching for belief. It is learning about religion it's an educational process and it has an importance, whether it's learning about religion and whether its learning it as a cultural, historical and a religious er tradition of the country and that is what is important. It really must be be for the churches and the families themselves to go much further and to instruct if that is the er what the Noble Lord is hinting at, at erm promoting belief. Hear! Hear! My Lords, er would my Noble Friend, subjects are nevertheless best taught by those who have a sympathy for them and in the light of the fact that eighty per cent of er school pupils in the primary sector are taught,th all subjects by the same teacher. Would she encourage an increase in the twenty per cent who actually employ specialists for particular subjects er to do so as a priority in religious education where the teacher has no such sympathy. M My Lords, first of all the there are a number of reports out now very erm good reports that do encourage primary schools to look and exploit the specialisms of the teachers on their staff and that would cover of course people who have a specialism in teaching this subject and it is also true, sadly in the case of some schools who won't allow er people who are specialists in the subject and can speak about it with authority for example er local vicars and priests and, and faith healers who can come in help in a school, but where those schools do ex exploit the expertise in the community, the school is enriched by that. Hear! Hear! Does the Noble Minister not agree that this area of education is absolutely central to our future as a stable multi-cultural society and that therefore teachers must have in depth knowledge of the traditions and faiths with which they're dealing. Doesn't this emphasise the absolute importance of the relationship between higher education and teacher training? My Lords, it really does erm it's a matter of Professor not Professor Judd on this occasion, it really does depend what you mean by multi-culturalism er can, can, can I say that as long as the integrity of each religion is preserved, then education is a very sound er erm is very sound in prospect, but sadly it has become a melting pot and as my Noble Friends like to refer to it a mish-mash and I don't think it does anything more than serve to confuse children if it's done badly. What is absolutely essential is that the integrity of each of the religions are properly preserved when they are taught. Yes, but is my Noble Friend aware that the point of view expressed in the question put by the Noble Lord, Lord and my Noble Friend the Noble Lord would represent the point of view of most parents who are concerned about having religious education at the beginning? M M My Lords,i it is important that whatever is taught to a child between the ages of five and eleven that the child is able to benefit from it educationally if the child is, is overloaded as it were by being presented erm a curriculum that they simply cannot manage, then that's going to create confusion, but it's also important to say that one of the erm er objectives of this whole exercise is to underpin all education, both morally and spiritually and I believe we're doing a great deal to get that right. My Lords, may I ask my Noble Friend the Minster, what arrangements in the teachers training colleges, how are the teachers going to be taught teach religion, those who and want to teach religion? Er M My Lords, there are two things, one is that if it's an R E specialists of course it will be their primary subject. If it's erm if it's a school teacher as in primary schools where they're going to teach a lot across a range of subjects, one of the new measures I think is going to help and that is the introduction of the sixth subject, erm Bachelor of Education Degree, because maths, English and science will be the core three subjects and the other three subjects will be of choice, so there's an opportunity there for one of those subjects to be religious education and it will be taught in greater depth to those teachers. Next question. Viscount Montgomery of My Lords, I beg leave to ask the question standing in my name on the Order Paper. My Lords, the Government er plans to dispose of the land St Pancreas site, once it is no longer needed for the building project, the British Library is preparing a case for retaining some of the land for further library buildings. We shall of course consider the Library's proposals carefully when they've been finalised. My Lords, I thank my Noble Friend for that answer as far as it goes, however, is my Noble Friend aware that three important functions o of the British Library, namely the National Sound Archive, the Photographic Processing Unit,an and the er Conservation are er not going to be included this p or in other parts of London and cannot be included in the present building. Would it not make administrative sense if at least part of this site could be reserved specifically for the British Library so that in any future extension, these units could be incorporated? My Lords, the case for relocating the areas that my Noble Friend spoke about, will be considered when the British Library has completed its investment appraisal for use of the surplus land. They are operating satisfactorily from their present locations. My Lords, I took the opportunity knowing this question was coming up last Friday to spend an entire morning on the site in the building Hear! Hear! Er am I I brought back a pack full of riveting information for Your Lordships which I have placed in the library, this library, not that library. aware that erm the retention of this site is essential for expansion, since the British Library after forty years in construction has room for, will have room only for twelve hundred readers not many more than Great Russell Street while the French National Library which has taken only five years to build and will be completed next year, will have room for three-and-a-half-thousand readers. Is it therefore not essential that this new site should be used for an additional reading unit? Hear! Hear! Hear! Hear! My Lords, it's a question of cost in the long run, but er the reason that the our British Library will have fewer than the French Library is originally it was planned to have three thousand places, but er further er examination which has really been taken undertaken very, very thoroughly has proved that this is really not necessary. My Lords, may I declare an interest in this question as a user of the British Library. Is the Noble Baroness aware that a National Library must grow. May I als also ask her to bear in mind that none of us are in a great hurry to go through again the expense and the dislocation of the relocation of the British Library, and if this land is not made available to the Library, that might happen rather sooner than we wish. really answer the first part of the Noble Lord's question by saying that er er it is a question of future cost, er we are er we are already spending a great deal of money on the first part er of this er library and er we will have to examine the future cost very carefully and I put it to you to the Noble Lord that it would be a really sad reflection where the field of creative endeavour in which this country is m has most excelled over the centuries, in other words literature to have no single focus for celebration, preservation and active use, it really is er very important that this library continues, but may I remind Your Lordships also that we're not talking about the s the library in this question, we're talking about the u the site at present used by the builders. the case that most people regard the way in which the National Library has been built and planned as a total national disaster and a vast waste of public money. No, My Lords, I entirely disagree with the Noble Lord er furthermore as I've already said we're talking the builders site not the library in today's question. My Lords, Government is not prepared to retain the land itself for the future development of what must be regarded as one of the world's greatest libraries. Would it at least give a categorical assurance and preferably in this House and now that the British Library will be given the opportunity to raise funds to purchase the land itself so that the future development of that library will be possible. Hear! Hear! The Government would be prepared to consider proposals er for private funds, but the British Library would also need to prepare a business case showing how it would meet the cost of the building and the ongoing costs. My Lords, may I ask my Noble Friend if it wouldn't be better really to lease the land for a period of time, perhaps long enough for the anguish felt about the cost of the library as it currently stands and when perhaps more optimistic views could be entertained, because the piece of land it's on is not going to be recoverable once it's sold. It was a unique happening to find thirteen acres of land together in the site and it's not going to occur again. The drawing together of the parts of the British Library has largely been achieved by the existing structure, there still are large bits. I'm particularly concerned perhaps if I may ask her to show some concern for this herself that the remoteness of the newspaper library, way up in the rustic further regions of the Northern Line, the great virtue of the existing site is that's on the Inner Circle, the accessibility of this site is really its greatest virtue. My Lords, the present building meets the British Library's key requirements. It is already library policy to operate from the two sites, London and Boston Spa, there is room for expansion at Boston Spa. There's another element which Your Lordships have not touched on to do with this land which is why er we are being very cautious about our plans for it and that is that er the union railways have indicated a requirement to lease two point eight acres of the land for site purposes from nineteen ninety seven to thousand and three er, but this will depend on the timetable for construction of the Channel Tunnel Link. My Lords, is the er Noble Minister aware that the site er which is referred to is not of great market value in the sense that it is scheduled by the planning authority for use only as an open space or for community housing. Is she also aware of the fact that the National Sounds Archive now housed in Exhibition Road in South Kensington, ought really to be next door to the Music Library and it has always been the ambition of the Library to put it there and that furthermore, and here I speak from great knowledge because I negotiated the arrangement, if that site at Exhibition Road for the National Sounds Archive Library is sold, that money can only be used under the term of that agreement to provide similar accommodation elsewhere. In other words, both the land is cheap if it is realised and secondly, already the British Library has an asset at Exhibition Road which can be used to defray the cost of some of the building. Will these factors please be taken into account. Hear! Hear! The fact is er the last fact is that the Noble Lord mentioned, will be taken into account. The current value of the land is estimated at one point five million, but the land at the time of any sale would be determined by the most favourable planning consent which can be obtained at the time. My Lord My Lords, I beg leave to ask the question standing in my name on the Order Paper. My Lords, the aim of the Government's policies is to ensure that patients receive high quality accident and emergency services whenever they need them. We're continuing to make take action to develop and improve standards and conditions in accident and emergency departments. My Lords whilst thanking the Noble Baroness the Minister for that reply, would she not agree that when they get into hospital the accident case or the emerg emergency case, they've probably been sent there by a doctor and that there they should th therefore be handled, but what the associations are concerned about, particularly the Royal College of Nursing, the B M A and Unison is that emergency and accident cases are put in corridors on trolleys and this ought not to be th a situation which can be tolerated. Would at least the Noble Baroness be prepared to have a look at that what appears to be, and I have made some investigations, a somewhat distressing situation. Hear! Hear! Yes, My Lords, and certainly undertake to do that. I would like to set this into context though, because over thirteen million attend accident and emergency departments annually. Er the Government find it absolutely unacceptable for people to wait on trolleys, once the decision for admission has been made er but My Lords sometimes it is necessary to wait er for observation purposes or sometimes for diagnostic treatments, er which actually have to take place in the A and E department er but My Lords it's very interesting to see how similar hospitals vary, even within the same vicinity and we believe a great deal of this is due to poor management. My Lords is there not a danger at looking at er accident and emergency departments in isolation from the rest of the hospital. If beds are blocked by for example geriatric patients er in medical or even surgical wards, won't there be a trickle effect and therefore it will be impossible for the patients who need to go up to these other wards to get out of the A and E department? My Noble Friend is absolutely right er it is a er essential that the erm hospital does have a good discharge policy that there are community facilities to support people once they leave hospital er and My Lords we know that with some of the new procedures that are now being introduced er that is possible and that when a patient comes in for treatment, a discharge policy is worked out almost immediately so that the support services can be given when the time comes for that person to leave. has the Minister er studied the Royal College of Nursing Report which was published early last month, which shows that in a third of accident and emergency units in hospitals, patients actually have to stay overnight er before they are admitted to er a ward and would she a accept that this really is not a satisfactory situation, it's actually worse i outside London than it is in London, contrary to some views. The average waiting time is five-and-a-half hours. Is not this really a situation to which er she and her colleagues must er address their mind? My Lords, I found a very interesting er aspect in the Royal College of Nursing's review was that resources were not the issue, the Royal College itself came down in favour of the fact that it was management that needed to be tightened up and My Lords it was interesting looking at that survey that it was a telephone survey and in one of the two hospitals er one or two of the hospitals that were rung up, it was quite difficult to find the person who'd answered the survey. that report er that i it was er said that it m a high proportion of the cases were because of bed closures, which surely must be linked with resources. My Lords, I don't accept that, er one can look at some of the London hospitals, University College, London Hospital er where seventy-one beds we closed and where we know they have one of the best accident and emergency departments in the country. Baroness said she found it absolutely accept unacceptable for patients to wait in the corridor on trolleys. Did she mean the word absolutely literally enough to prepare prepared to commit extra money to preventing it? My Lords, I think I made it perfectly clear what I did mean er I did qualify it by saying that of course there are times when patients do have to wait on trolleys for diagnostic purposes, for observation and for other reasons er but once an admission has been agreed, then that patient should be admitted, that is our policy and that is what we're working towards. My Lord, My Lords, My Lords. Hear! Hear! Hear! Hear! Hear Hear! My Lords, could I ask the Minister if she would agree that there have been some improvements in the accident and emergency departments, since consultants were appointed and how many accidents that er there are emergency departments have not got consultants in charge and leave it to junior doctors? Er the Noble Baroness is is right erm we do notice that where a consultant is in charge the difference is very great indeed, I'm afraid I don't have the figure but I will certainly give it to her, er but also we know that where there are er hospital discharge managers where senior nurses are bed managers, the difference is really quite considerable er and that is what I was saying in terms of managing the process. My Lords, is the Minister that nearly half of all surgical units are cutting back on operations a third are giving priority to patients of G P fund holders and more than half of the N H S Trust er er have a facing a steep rise in emergency admissions of the G Ps that as they fight to get beds for their patients. Does the Minister agree with the view therefore, that nurses that nurses should be given the authority to admit patients to hospital provided there is a bed without having to wait for a decision to be to be made by a doctor? My Lords, the G P funding hold er fund holders issue is not an issue in this case, er G P fund holders patients have direct access to any departments as do every other patient in the country er where a person needs accidents er and emergency treatment, My Lords they get it. Lord to ask the question standing in my name on the order list. My Lords, we will continue to make sure that parents and governors have the opportunities and information to exercise their right, under the law to choose grant maintained status. We are also developing a common funding formula for self- governing schools which is fair, both to the schools themselves and to the local education authorities which is transparent and which offers a reasonable prospect of stability of funding. My Lords, will the er Minister say how much money has been spent on the so called cash protection for grant maintained schools and will she confirm that the one quarter of a million pounds almost a quarter of a million pounds being spent on advertising grant maintained schools is additional er to the scheme, to the first part of the question. My Lords, as only one thousand of the twenty four thousand schools er have opted out during five years of this does not that suggest that the schools themselves and the governors and the parents to whom the Minister refers, are not convinced of the advantages and in those circumstances was she given absolute guarantee that no opt- out will be allowed without a ballot? My Lords, the the Noble Lord is intensively anxious about this policy, if it was as unsuccessful as the Noble Lord believes, he wouldn't be exercised about it and sec secondly My Lords on cash protection, the Noble Lord confuses cash protection with money for erm er providing er information to parents. If you take all of the money that has been spent since the policy was established in nineteen eighty eight, it still does not amount to twenty pence per child which as I said in a previous erm question, answer to a previous question, is bare would barely buy a pencil for each child. Er My Lords, the Noble Lord asked four questions, I think it's traditional to answer two at the box. Would the Noble Minister clarify once and for all whether or not the Government are committed to free choice by parents in this matter? If they are, will they honour their own commitment by recognising that the overwhelming majority of parents want to stay with local authorities and that therefore local authorities should be given all the backing and support possible by the Government to make a success of their role in the future. Hear! Hear! My Lords, we remain absolutely committed to parents being the key determinant as to whether a school should go grant maintained erm or whether it should not. Er the Noble Lord is not in a position to say that the overwhelming erm number of parents support not going grant maintained, because until this year, until the new Act of Parliament er came into place, er not all parents were given an opportunity to answer that question er it is now er necessary for every single governing body to return to that question on an annual basis. My Lords, is my Noble Friend aware that many parents and teachers who have been deeply dissatisfied and disillusioned by local education authority schools in fact just set up their own new schools which are providing excellent education and really meeting those parental wishes, often with very strong er spiritual and moral values. Could my Noble Friend give an assurance that if these schools wish to take advantage of the new legislation and to opt into grant maintained status, they'll be given every encouragement? Hear! Hear! My Lords, erm I can say to my Noble Friend that erm she's absolutely right, there is a new er measure the recent nineteen ninety three Education Act and any application will be considered er on its merits and er and we will continue to support that. On the other point about local education authorities My Lords, er it is quite depressing, I was er visiting a local education authority only two weeks ago where they had a five point educational strategy for the authority, one of those points was to oppose at all cost erm parents right to opt out. My Lords, as we all know, having been told twice by our Minister that the cost of a pencil is twenty pence, will she now tell us what the overall cost has been and is for cash protection for grant maintained schools? My Lords, I can't give it precisely at the, at the d the despatch box, it is public information, I will make it available to the Noble Lord and place the answer in the library. Could my Noble Friend er not agree that in fact grant maintained schools have been very successful, not only in raising academic standards in helping parents, but in actually improving the fabric of the buildings Hear! Hear! This is something which has been drawn to my attention on many occasions and would she not agree that there are many of us who very much regret the fact that so many parents er are find it difficult to exercise their right to vote, because there is so much opposition er at a local level from officials Hear! Hear! to the opting out principles. Hear! Hear! M M My Lords, erm on the second point my Noble Friend makes, that's absolutely true and it really was again quite depressing to see that erm er a member in in in the and the other place Mr Don Foster on behalf of the Liberals, had actually written to every single Chief Education Officer er concerning anti er concerning campaigning against er the opting out policy, as to the other point my Noble Friend makes, it's absolutely true that erm all the service that have been done and there's one very recently reported, that the amount of value for money o obtained for every single grant maintained school outstrips the L E A maintained schools. erm er Government is going to allow the electoral monopoly of balloting parents when they make every other affair a matter of competitive tendering? My Lords,I I'm not sure that I can give an absolute answer to that, it would be wrong for me to, to guess. As far as I know, they have been er certainly have been erm involved in most of the ballots so far, but I know there is a discussion going on about whether they should be the . What we need to be certain about is that whatever society is involved in or whatever organisation is involved in balloting that it should be seen to be done properly. My Lords My Lord My Lords, I beg to move motion standing in my name on the Order Paper. that this motion be agreed to . committee on the Police and Magistrates Courts Bill. My Lords, I beg to m move that the House do now resolve itself into a committee on the Bill. House committee on the Bill as many of that opinion will stay content? Hear! Hear! The contrary not content. The contents have it. My Lords, Police and Magistrates Court Bill, the question is, the question is the title be postponed. As many as that opinion say content? The contrary not content. The contents have it. The question is of course to the Bill. Those opinion will say content? Contrary not content? The contents have it. Schedule One, Amendment Number One, Lord Ellis Thomas. Number One not moved, Number Amendment Number Two, Lord not moved, Number Three, Lord Hear! Hear! I beg leave to erm move this Amendment. I erm am raising this issue today, in order to give the Government the opportunity of telling the House what action they are proposing to take in respect of a serious error which has been made in the Rail Privatisation Legislation. An error which has led or will lead to the powers of arrest of the British Transport Police being drastically curtailed. As from the first of April this year, the British Transport Police will only be able to arrest offenders on British Rail property, but most of the property of British Rail will as from April be owned by Rail Track. From that date, the British Transport Police will not be able to follow alleged offenders to their homes, interview them and when appropriate, arrest them. For the Department have. Transport has inadvertently removed their powers as constables. This will create a truly remarkable situation, a police force of two thousand two hundred officers will at a stroke have their powers removed. Let me illustrate the seriousness of the forthcoming situation. There are twenty three police forces in this country which are smaller than the British Transport Police. The Transport Police investigate more crime than twenty four other police forces. In nineteen ninety two, ninety three they were called upon to investigate one thousand two hundred and thirty seven crimes of violence, I exclude, for various reasons those committed on the London Underground. In addition they had to investigate three hundred and eighty eight sexual offences, nine hundred and twenty eight robberies, three thousand and ninety seven burglaries, two thousand eight hundred and sixty two cases of fraud and thirty seven thousand five hundred and eighty two cases of theft. Yet I repeat, as from April, as a result of the Government's own legislation, they will in the overwhelming majority of these cases no longer possess the powers of constables and thus be able to follow through their investigations. Now a number of questions arise from this unhappy situation. Firstly, how did this extraordinary mistake came to be made in the first instance by the Department of Transport. I would be grateful if the Noble Earl who will, I assume be replying on their behalf, I hope he will be able to explain this matter to us. Er second, what action does the Government propose to take to rectify this situation? I hope that we will be assured in unequivocal terms that er Government members will be introduced to this Bill probably at the report stage. Third, assuming that amendments are introduced to rectify these errors, what will happen in the period between April and the day when this Bill gets the Royal Assent. Presumably the rest of the police service overburdened with er investigations of crime as they are, will have to carry the burden caused by the Department of Transport's errors. I would be grateful if the Noble Earl was able to answer these questions. Next, has the Association of Chief Police Officers yet been told that as from April they will have to take on this burden of work which has been removed from the British Transport Police as a result of an error in a Government Bill. If they have been so informed, I would be very grateful if I could be told on what date they were told. I am sure the Government will appreciate the indignation that they will feel overburdened as they are with work, that they will now have to use their scarce resources to deal with criminal conduct arising on the railways and lastly, who is going to pay for this work? The Department of Transport has made a serious error, can we be assured that police authorities will receive financial compensation for the work that their forces are now havin have are going to have to carry out and there is a further matter which I have erm drawn to the attention of the Secretary of State for Transport in er correspondence, namely the need to establish a new and representative police authority for the British Transport Police. Given the creation of Rail Track, the constitutional position in respect of the accountability of and the support for the British Transport Police is clearly most unsatisfactory. I hope that the Noble Earl will be able to assure us that on this issue too there will be Government amendments on report to deal with this important matter. My Lords, the British Transport Police carry out work of high national importance, not least in the area of terrorism. It is essential that the problems I have identified this afternoon are resolved before this Bill leaves this House. I beg to move. Hear! Hear! Amendment proposed page fifty, line twenty four insert British Transport Police the British Transport Police. My Lords, I would rise to support very briefly er but er whole-heartedly the amendment moved by the Noble Lord, Lord . It does seem to me an extraordinary catalogue of errors erm and one can well understand how errors take p er could, could have occurred during the somewhat co chaotic passage of the Railways Bill er what, what cannot be understood and what is quite inexcusable is, is the fact that no steps adequate steps have been taken to correct those errors and to assure the er continued existence of a er Transport Police which er h h has the sole responsibility for er policing large public spaces in, in this country and er as the Noble Lord has made clear, er does it honour er very considerable scale, very effectively er I hope that the Minister will find it possible to make a favourable reply to the arguments which have been raised. My Lords, the Noble Lord, Lord proposes a number of questions for er in his er amendment and er h his amendment does er highlight a difficulty into which we have er run. I think that the Noble Lord er wi will know that his amendment in fact as it is won't work because it er appears to treat the British Transport Police as an area of England and Wales er which of course would be unsuitable, but I have no doubt at all that his main purpose of his amendment is to explore the questions about the powers and jurisdiction of members of the British Transport Police which of course he did as usual most effectively. My Lords, erm I I think that behind this, there does appear to be some doubt as to the British Transport Police's position in respect of Rail Track er from the 1st April. The British Transport Police will continue as a single police force, one that is responsible for policing Britain's Rail Network after the 1st April. British Rail are to remain the employer of the British Transport Police for the immediate future, in order to ensure that the British Transport Police will continue to police the whole of the restructured railway er a an order amending the British Transport Police Force Scheme in nineteen sixty three will be laid before Parliament shortly. My Lords, the influence behind the Noble Lord's amendment is that the British Transport Police will not have the full jurisdiction on Rail Track property. Er I can assure your Lordships that this is not the case. The Intention of the British er of the Railways Act of nineteen ninety three was that jurisdiction of the British Transport Police should be unaffected, but we are aware that there may be some doubt now as to the precise extent of the powers which British Transport Poli Police may have beyond the Rail Track property. In British Transport Police may act as constables in, on and in the vicinity of Rail Track's property and my Right Honourable Friend, the Secretary of State for Transport is at presently urg er at present er urgently considering in conjunction with British Rail and the British Transport Police whether the wording represents a problem and if it is, how best to address it. My Lords er my er the Noble Lord, Lord er asked whether the Government would bring an amendment er, er down at report stage. I would just tell him this that er there is a problem here which my Right Honourable Friend is addressing and depending on the outcome of those consultations and discussions, will obviously depend the action which we will have to take. The erm problems only recently b been identified and it is one to which a solution is being sought. My Lords, I wonder if I could ask a practical question arising out of this. Until an hour or two ago I certainly didn't know that this problem had arisen, but the date April has been on the lips of my er Honourable Friend er and of the Noble Minister er I used to represent part of the City of Leeds and Honourable er a and Noble Lord you'll have heard recently of behaviour at Elland Road Football Ground on the death of Sir Matt Busby and one can only wonder what sort of people er we're dealing with, but many of them arrive at Leeds City Station on the day of a match and they come early and they have then to get their way to Elland Road and there are often real problems. I've seen out in the street mountive er mounted police charging down rather like the Battle of Balaclava and inside the station problems arising and it's nasty to be involved and in those days I've travelled on a Saturday afternoon often . This date of April I can understand the Minister er the Minister of Transport is concerned, but unless something is done pretty quickly there'll be a lot of people in Leeds who will be worrying about what's going to happen on er around the station because there is this small group of people no not always from the town concerned or the city concerned, who behave in this abysmal way and British Transport Police have a very good record at the stations and on the trains as they can move from one part of the country to another. Will that be all right, will they be able to do that after April, or i i is this problem going to carry on? My Lords, I hope that I can er erm allay the disquiet of the Noble Lord, Lord erm the,th th the fact is that British Transport Police at the moment have control and jurisdiction over all the the railway system in and on and in the vicinity of the, the railway the railway organisation. In other words they are responsible for what happens on the trains or what or happens on the r railways, what happens o in in the stations. They can actually go and chase after a person outside the station if if that is their their wish and at the moment that is erm that will continue to be the case. The only difficulty is, is er the interpretation of of the words and er whether or not the the words er er er er in the vicinity of is more constricting than we anticipate and it is that point which will be needn which needs to be addressed, but I think I can assure the No Noble Lord that erm er they w w will have full jurisdiction on and in the vicinity of the stations which is the point which she which she is anxious about and that will continue just the same after April the first before. My Lords erm I don't propose to erm develop this argument further this afternoon. The Noble Earl has said erm er two things that the as I understand it, that there is some doubt about the situation. Well according to the British Transport there is no doubt about the matter at all that power as constables I have been inadvertently removed by the Department of Transport that is reality. The second question is the second certainly made by the Noble Earl was that the Department of Transport were urgently examining the situation, I trust with the Home Office at the same time and I would suggest that we might in fact discuss this matter if I might make er if I might make this suggestion to the Noble Earl, between now and the report stage, so that this matter can be clarified but I am sure that he will understand that we would not in fact be er feel able to erm ignore this issue er in the period between the beginning of the committee stage today and the third reading of this Bill, we do expect Government amendments to be introduced. At the same time, I have asked a number of questions which I, if I may so, have not been answered. I did ask whether the Association of Chief Police Officers have been told that they are going to they are likely to have to take over many of the responsibilities of the British Transport Police as from the first of April. I asked that question, it has not been answered. I hope the Noble Earl will be able to give me an answer in perhaps in correspondence following this, also the date upon which at they were informed, because I am sure he will realise the implications as far as the rest of the British Police Service are concerned that as from April of this year they will have to take on a heavy burden of work which is now being carried out by the British Transport Police. We cannot allow this situation of doubt to continue any longer. I will certainly ask the leave of the House to withdraw this amendment, but as I'm sure the Noble Earl will recognise we will in fact be coming back to this matter on repor o on on report. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Erm er i i is it your Lordship's pleasure this amendment will be withdrawn. Amendment by leave withdrawn. The question is Schedule One with the first schedule of the bill as many as that opinion will say content? contrary not content, the contents have it. Clause Two of Amendment Number Four, Lord Payton of My Lords, the move amendment which is down in my name on the Order Paper, I do have to apologise Your Lordships, to your Lordships, if th if it's meaning is not immediately clear, even to the keen minds which are present in Your Lordship's House. Page two, Line Seven, leave out two A and three and insert and three as amended. My Lords the my er justification for that is of course that particular clause in the Bill which my amendments seeks to seeks to change both are I admit on the face of it entirely incomprehensible. Wishing My Lords to understand what exactly is the law which we now seek to amend, there doesn't seem to me to be all that er elaborate a precaution. I sought the help of the Public Bill on this and I was referred to erm Statutes i in force. Nineteen eighty nine edition which is the latest existing in Your Lordship's House and I found that that edition did reveal at what had happened since to subsec to Sections Two and Three. It made however no reference to Section Two A the notes on clauses were equally silent on er this important matter. I then zealous to understand I I er, er, erm sought it Statutes, Volume thirty-three nineteen ninety three edition and studied most carefully pages six hundred and seventy-five to six hundred and seventy-seven and there I found an account of what has happened to Sections two and three and also for the first time light was shed upon Section two A. My Lords, I have from time to time ventured to express some doubt as to whether our legislative procedures were as excellent, as I'm sure Your Lordships would wish them to be and when I recently suggested in the most mild terms to Her Majesty's Government that they might consider some form of enquiry into our legislative procedures to see whether as they were as high class as they should be, erm I was given a very negative reply the clear influence of which was that the our legislative procedures could not possibly be improved and My Lords I do really think with respect that that is a proposition which is open to doubt. I don't wish to take up too much of Your Lordships time, but could I without er er driving your Lordships into the dee into very deep sleep erm er a quote to you one passage from page six hundred and seventy-five. It's just er a small section of foot of a footnote which gives an account of the history of the clause in er of the section in the er Police Act of nineteen sixty four with which we are dealing and of course Your Lordships will be well aware that we moved on from Section er from the Sections of the Police Act, we're not dealing with them at all, we're dealing with what has happened to those Clauses since and I thought perhaps Your Lordship might Your Lordships might be interested in the sort of guidance which is made available th so, so fortunately to us and so that we can have our minds very clearly focused upon the issues. The note to which I refer of six er page six seven five reads as follows, the words omitted from sub-sections one, four and five and the whole of sub-section three were repealed and sub-section six was substituted by the Local Government Act nineteen seventy two, sections one hundred and ninety-six one two, two hundred and seventy-two one, Schedule thirty, the words in square brackets in sub-section one and in the first pair of square brackets in sub-section two, were substituted and the words omitted from para two B, paragraph two B and the whole of paragraph two C, both of which had been inserted by the Local Government Act nineteen seventy two, section two hundred and seventeen, schedule twenty- seven, part two, paragraph eighteen were repealed. by the Local Government Act nineteen eighty five Sections thirty-seven, one hundred and two, schedule eleven, para one, schedule seventeen. The words in the second pair of square brackets in sub-section two B were substituted by the Courts Act nineteen seventy one, section three, subsection five. My Lords I, I, I, I, it may be just a total inadequacy of my dwindling intellectual powers that I find that extremely difficult to follow! It will be comforting to me at any rate personally to know that even so eminent a, a, er an ornament of the present administration as my Noble Friends also found these th th this material a matter for stumbling and was not perhaps inclined to give it a crown of lucidity. Er My Lords, I don't wish to prolong my remarks too much, but I really seriously believe that this is not the way in which legislative procedures should be carried out. I have always had very limited sympathy with what is rather mis misdescribed in my er er view, as industrial action, but there is one in history, one instance of industrial action with which I must tell Your Lordships I feel an increasing sympathy. It took place quite a long time ago, it is known as the cessation of the plebs there were two occasions on which the workers of of Ancient Rome and withdrew from the city and their t the terms on which as as far as I recollect the terms of their return where that somebody should write down the law in comprehensible terms and that there should be a special officer, a tribune appointed who could if necessary explain what the law was to them. My Lords, I believe that such an officer is very badly needed now in Your Lordships House Hear! Hear! I, I, I am certainly not that man, I would, I would not dream of offering myself for such a ghastly post And I do, and I do, I must say not for the last time during the passage of this Bill, I do feel constrain to offer my very deep sympathy to my Noble Friend on the front bench. Here he is,h h he has the very unpleasant duty of explaining and justifying the drafting of this measure a a and I do hope it would be, it would be really rather an unexpected realisation of an ambition, but nevertheless one hopes eternal if my Noble Friend were to get up and say that as a result these few remarks that I have been tempted to make that some kind of effort is going to be made to tidy up as th th the processes whereby er such stuff appears, is allowed to appear on the pages of the Statute Book er er I do recall that when the Charities Bill was going through several committees, my Noble Friend wasn't who who was d d dealing with the Bill in, on behalf of the Government was exceedingly helpful and I hope that he will show the same degree of goodwill today er and, and, and er h if he's very clear and devote is very considerable energies to persuading those professional obs obfuscators who are responsible for this kind of garbage to do better in the future. Hear! Hear! I beg to vote. Amendment proposed page two to line seven loo out leave out two A and three and insert three as amended. My Noble Friend Lord was if I may say so his usual wonderful combination of modesty and vehemence has erm drawn our attention to the very confused situation which arose. After the er Police Act nineteen sixty four had been in force for some years and when the government of the day which you supporters in the nineteen seventies and later, tried to erm modify it in order to er make a dovetail with local government reforms which we supported. I agree with him that an unsatisfactory situation er was created in our legislation and in passing I would like to say how much we all welcome, I'm sure the efforts of my Noble Friend to get legislation simplified, but erm on this particular matter which he has raised, I would like to try to comfort him if that is possible, because erm by getting rid of the er the sections two two A and three of the Police Act as they er nineteen sixty four as they have been amended and er substituting this clause to the Bill simplification will in fact have been achieved so far as the form is concerned. I do not speak of the substance of the matter because so many of us have some doubts about the substance of it and we shall come to that later, but erm it does seem to me that er we had to get rid of erm sections two, two A and three of the Police Act nineteen sixty four as amended and that clearly doing so here and erm er er I I think that this is an improvement as a result on the laws that er present appears on the Statute Book. Hear! Hear! My Lords,I I I don't want to intervene in family quarrels, but er surely the point that the Noble Lord, Lord was making was that there is no section er two A i in in force a at at the present time. If if Lord could find it, we'll be very grateful to him. My Lords, I'm bound to say that er my Noble Friend Lord modesty is overwhelming. He said that he really found enormous difficulty in understanding this, he didn't refer to how difficult it was when you have dwind dwindling intellectual powers. Er I've never had any dwindling intellectual powers er simply because I've never had any intellectual powers in the first place, so I would agree with him that in all cases I find dealing with er matters of a er er er er of, of legislation er en enormously complex. When my Noble Friend was kind enough to say that he looked to me for help as being I think he said an ornament on the front bench, wasn't quite certain whether that was supposed to be a compliment or not, but I thought an ornament or something that you that sat upon a er er er er er upon a shelf and looked pretty, but didn't actually do anything. My Lords erm I would only hope that I would be able to do something to my Noble Friend in trying to persuade him that it isn't all that bad erm My Lords I do agree with him though when you I, I think that I'd be first of all w were to tell him that er not that he wouldn't be surprised that I thought that his amendment wasn't actually necessary, but I do understand his concern, I mean he tries to find his way through the legislation. It isn't always easy for anyone to get to the bottom of every detail of a bill er which refers to earlier legislation and erm er er I'm sure that my Noble Friend would sympathise anyhow erm er er w with with me insofar as I also do not have the advantage of er legal qualifications which he manages to make up for most adequately. My Lords, erm i legislation is complex and I agree that we should do what we can to keep a clear er, er to keep it clear and simple if it's at all possible and erm er I agree though that one needs a fully up-to-date text of the nineteen sixty four Police Act in order to decipher every last dot and comma. My Lords, erm I I I'm glad t t to know that a text is readily available er I agree with my Noble Friend that if he took the simple course of comparing the Bill with the nineteen sixty four Act as it was printed, he would have run into trouble. What he needed of course was to compare the present Bill with the nineteen sixty four Act as amended by various statutes. My Lords, erm my information is that Hallsbury's Statute have got that er that information and er that is that is available and er they have recently fully updated the volume which contains the legislation relating to the police. Erm er I was concerned when my Noble Friend said that he'd looked up Hallsbury but that it didn't contain the right words, er er I rather wonder whether he looked up so to speak the right version or the last version. My information is that that is the correct way er th the correct authority to which to look. What I think I said was that in statutes in the latest Edition of Statutes in force nineteen seventy nine edition would fail to make it clear what two A was about at all made no mention of it er Hallsbury's Statutes on the other hand do. but that ought to satisfy my Noble Friend and I should have thought, but I agree with him,in in the general point that it is very much more easy when these bills are consolidated and they do end up in one consolidated act. I can't obviously give my Noble Friend an assurance that this will be done, but in due course er I would very much hope that it would be and when it is my Noble Friend will then be able to refer to that Act with total simplicity and find his way through it and with all the original Acts amended as they were and will be after this Act has been passed. My Lords, I, I do realise and I have to be satisfied with that erm and I shall do my best, but if I could just make my absolutely clear,simple proposition that I was seeking to perform is that if you are seeking to amend the law i i it ought to be possible for those who are seeking to understand the Government's intentions to find out relatively easily what the law is and I suggest it's very far from easy and even if you get to it, it's not at all easy to understand. My Lords,my Noble Friend on either of those propositions. Er er er I'm not even hoping namely to get any of the further progress on this difficult subject, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Is it Your Lordship's pleasure this amendment be withdrawn? Amendment by leave withdrawn. And before calling Amendment Number Five I should remind the Committee that if it should be agreed to, I will be unable to call Amendment Number Six. Amendment Number Five, Lord ? My Lords, in rising to move Amendment Number Five, I should like to speak also to Amendment six, seven and eight, ten to twenty-two inclusive, twenty-seven, a hundred and twenty-four and a hundred and twenty-five. I apologise for the length of the, of the grouping, but it has been agreed between all of those concerned that it would be better er for the Committee to have a single debate on the size and composition of police authorities, rather than er a seri a series of debates on closely-related issues. I should make it clear that although these amendments have been grouped together by agreement, they do not all express the same point of view. Er in very briefly and I shall er expand the argument a min in a minute, my amendments five, eight and eleven provide that the size of a police authority should no longer be restricted to sixteen members, but should be er er by order er a somewhere between sixteen and twenty-four members and that two-thirds of those members should be er appoint er er amen appoint appointed by local authorities in the area concerned. Th er there is a series of amendments in the name of the Noble Lord, Lord of Yeovil, Amendment six, seven, twelve to fourteen, sixteen, nineteen and twenty-one of which the most significant is Amendment twenty-one, these Amendments provide again that there should be flexibility in the size of police authorities and that the composition should be such as to secure a majority of local authority members of not less than three. Thirdly, there are amendments in the name of the Government of the er Noble Earl Lord which are Amendments ten, fifteen and twenty and these provide for greater flexibility in the size of police authorities, again between sixteen and twenty-four members to be determined by the Secretary of State and for the Bill's existing proposition that er fifty per cent of the members should be er and only fifty per cent of the members, should be from local authorities that er er er er that er of the remainder some should be magistrates and some should be members appointed by the Secretary of State and finally er there is a series of amendments er by the Noble Lord, Lord , Amendment seventeen, eighteen and twenty-two and those provide again with flexibility of size for er police authorities that half of the members should be from local authorities and the other half should be magistrates. Er I hope that makes the matter clear, because when we come to make a decision on this group of amendments, er when I er seek the opinion of the er Committee on my Amendment five, I shall only be seeking agreement to Amendment five and its related amendments er eight and eleven and if the Noble Lord, Lord er if, if the House were er to disagree with my Amendment or if it were to be withdrawn and the Noble Lord, Lord amendment were, were put, I think he would agree that it would only tha that that a decision by the Committee would only relate to the amendments in his name because we have in fact four alternatives before us which we are debating together. My Lords, with that er oh, and I've one more thing to say which is that there there are is a series of amendments in the next group, twenty-three to five and twenty-eight to thirty which are in f in fact consequential on some of the amendments in th in this earlier group and er if er er some of these amendments were to be carried, er then I think the Committee would have to consider whether to er also to agree er to amendments in the in in the following group of amendments. My Lords, so much for the er the procedures and the er outline of what we're what we're discussing. The issues before us now are as important, at least as important as anything else in the Bill. The Government has made welcome propositions er on a number of matters both in relation to the er police er part of the Bill and the Magistrates Court's part of the Bill. As far as the police part of the Bill is concerned, the er Government er under considerable pressure from erm er er members on their own side er as well as from these benches, have made the er very welcome concession that the chairman of a police authority shall no longer be appointed er by the Secretary of State, by the Home Secretary, but elected from among the members of the police authority er they have also made provision that the er er er i in response to the er criticisms that were made at second reading that the size of the p of a police authority shall no longer be limited to er sixteen members but could er by er order of the Secretary of State be extended to er twenty er er er twenty-four members. All those we recognise and we're grateful for. The trouble is that having er agreed to a er more flexible approach to the size of the police authority, the Government has not taken the opportunity despite many effective speeches from the Conservative benches at second reading to er ret to return to the tripartite system of policing in this country which was er the e the essential element of the nineteen sixty four Act which is now in effect being replaced. If I make only one quote from er the sec second reading from the Noble Lord, Lord of Hadleigh what he said was that there that er er er the an any members appointed should be genuinely locally appointed. What is now proposed is that whatever the size of the police authority there will still be a body of appointees er m m made by the Secretary of State. Now er in Amendment twenty-seven the Government proposes a slightly different procedures or a more explicit procedure for the er for er for as to how these appointments shall be made. The Government is now proposing that they shall er er that they shall be erm made from a list of persons compiled in accordance with an Order by the Secretary of State and it appears to be being claimed, at least in the press that this somehow is providing for appointments to be at arms length from the Home Secretary. I cannot see how with that wording, that can be the case. If the list of persons is compiled in accordance with an Order made by the Secretary of State and the Secretary of State then makes the appointment, then it is the Secretary of State who is responsible for all stages of the process and we still have a centrally appointed er part of the of the er of the local authority. Let me give an example of how this might work in terms of numbers. If you were to have as as there w is in Greater Manchester at the moment er a political compos composition of the councils where you would get from eight er lo local authority members er five Labour two Conservative and one Liberal Democrat. If you assume that on politically sensitive issues as is normally the case the magistrates would not vote, and if you assume that the Secretaries er Secretary of State's appointees would, as would seem entirely plausible, vote in accordance with the wishes of the Secretary of State and the Secretary of State were indeed a Conservative Secretary of State, you would in fact have er in a area where the with the with the with the substantive Labour majority, you would have a Conservative majority on the police authority and you would you have the possibility of conflict between the police police authority and the local authorities er in the area who are jointly responsible with the police authority for many aspects of er of of policing by consent. Now I I've chosen an example w with a Conservative Secretary of State and the Labour majority, but I ask the Noble Lords on all, in all parts of the House to think it could work the other way round, because a Labour Secretary of State could exercise exactly these powers in an area where with a er Conservative majority on on er on on the local council or councils and I ask the House to think of this, not in a party er as a as a party issue between Labour, Conservative or Liberal Democrat, I just ask you to consider whether it is right for a Secretary of State of any political persuasion to er secure by appointment to a police authority a political control from the centre of that police authority, because that is what the Government's presents proposals would still achieve and er it is our view and it is the view of which is which is finds expression in Amendments five, eight and eleven that the we should return to the tripartite system of p of policing which policing is a partnership between the Chief Constable er the local authority in the area and the Home Secretary, that er tripartite arrangement has worked extremely well for thirty years, there have been minor conflicts in some parts of the country, but nothing to justify the wholesale removal of of of the partnership which is now proposed. We welcome the proposals by the Government as far as they go, but we have to point out that those proposals leave police authorities in an unstable situation. It is er er the police auth authorities are would not be robust to changes of government, they would not be responsive to the leads of local people as expressed through their elected members and the er the Government's proposals are inadequate as a final remind the Committee that at second reading thirty f er five out of thirty seven speakers spoke against largely against th the tenor of the Bill with er er wi with with various reservations o of all kinds. I remind the House that one of the principal concerns with the police part of the Bill was the removal of the er the tripartite system a and the concentration of power in the hands of the Home Secretary. Our amendments would er restore democratic accountability for police authorities, they would remove the proposed concentration of power in the hands of the Home Secretary and I commend them to the Committee. Hear! Hear! Amendments proposed page two, line twelve, leave out from beginning to little a and insert served the Secretary of State shall by order establish. My Lords, any discussion of this group of amendments must surely be conducted against the background of the vital Amendment thirty-one concerning the Chairman of the police authorities. It has been tabled with my Noble Friend, Earl . I wish to record my gratitude to my Right Honourable Friend, the Home Secretary for his immediate understanding and the recognition of the very strong feelings expressed during the second reading debate by Your Lordships in all parts of the House. Amendment thirty-one confirms that a chairman of a police authority will be elected by the authority itself, instead of being appointed by the Home Secretary As Noble Lord, Lord has already said. This major change ensures the independence of the authorities and also crucially the operational independence of My Lords, any discussion of this group of am will be most welcomed as Lord has said in Your Lordships ding. I country. I also welcome two more amendments which have also been put down by my Noble Friend, Lord and of course are down for discussion now. Amendment twenty gives the Secretary of State power to increase the number of police authority members above sixteen. As I said on the second reading, I do believe that some areas will need to have larger authorities because of their size, or indeed their particular problems, geographical and otherwise. I also welcome Amendment twenty-seven which sets out plans for the appointment by the Secretary of State for members of authorities which will have sanction of having to come before Parliament before accepted and I think that again is extremely important. Against the background of the changes proposed to the Government we have to consider the members of the authority and the appointment of some members. I must make it clear at once that I personally do not regard these particular decisions as a constitutional question such as most certainly was the appointment of the chairman. I am glad therefore that the idea of appointed or co-opted members as well as magistrates seen now to be pretty widely accepted if I understand the Noble Lord, Lord 's amendment. I have come to the same conclusion that some a method of appointment is in fact right and it makes sense. I do not say that in any criticism of the existing police authorities, my experience as Home Secretary I have to admit now some ten years ago was that on the whole they did a very good job, but I do now accept that the importance of law and order today demands a broad approach and possibly some new ideas. There are certainly My Lords, people in our community who feel that they have a special contribution in this field and would like to take part while not being able to go forward er for election to local councils. That I know is the very strong view of my Right Honourable Friend, the Home Secretary and indeed, also amongst a good many members in another place and indeed in Your Lordships House. I therefore come down firmly in favour of a principle of appointed members. However, I must at this stage part from Amendment eleven on the method of their selection for two reasons. First I believe if we are going to seek a broader approach to the problems of law and order, I feel we need a broader electorate than the existing members of a police authority. Secondly, I believe the method of selection that my Right Honourable Friend the Home Secretary has proposed in Amendment twenty-seven is a broader method of selection than that proposed elsewhere. I also believe that it is not so subject to all the particular points that the Lord suggests against it. I believe it can be made to work and with the background of the proposed Amendment and what b can be done by Parliament as a result of that, that can be a sensible way of proceeding. I therefore My Lords conclude that the Bill on this point should stand as it is and in general I strongly support my Honourable Friend the Home Secretary on the plans that he now puts before the organisation of police authorities in tackling the serious problems of law and order which we all face in this country today. Hear! Hear! Hear! Hear! My Lords, erm I would like to take the opportunity if I may just to refer very briefly to one amendment of mine on page two, line eighteen after the second of insert not less than. Those words I would like to put on the record where on an earlier sheet that somehow or other have disappeared from the current Order Paper. My My Lords I I'm sure it isn't necessary for me in referring very briefly to the amendments to which er I have done er it isn't necessary for me to recount in full the arguments with which Your Lordships are already becoming very familiar. My Lords,I I'm like others of Your Lordships, I was myself very greatly influenced er in my opinion of this Bill by the remarks made by no fewer than three er former Home Secretaries, my Noble Friend Lord , my Noble Friend Lord a and the Noble Lord, Lord of Cardiff. I think it would have been absurd to have imposed upon police authorities a uniform number of sixteen without regard either to the size of the area with which they were concerned or the numbers of the population. I I I it is very easy to find examples which, which show how absurd they were, the results f f , for instance a large area like Devon and Cornwall with four thousand square miles having now thirty elected members reduced under the Bill to eight would be absurd. Likewise Greater Manchester having a dense population two point six million, having now thirty elected members with thirty-five thousand members but the thirty thousand thirty-five thousand people if I remember would end up with three hundred and twenty-four thousand people per member I think it absurd. My Lords, to those who er who have objected to erm a body of large numbers o o need to reduce it to sixteen er I would say that those on the er my Noble Friends on the front bench would do very well to give their attention to the possibility of reducing the number of the cabinet er to sixteen er er er I w er forebear from making er detailed suggestions as to which of those distinguished people should be dispensed with, but nevertheless it might be the advantage of everybody if the numbers of the cabinet were reduced to sixteen, I personally thought that for a very long time. My Lords, erm the, the th the most I think perhaps er th th th the Noble Lord,Lor Lord erm referred to my amendments and particularly to Amendment twenty-one which I share with I share certainly share this view with him that that is probably the most important of the ones which is which er I am concerned and to which I put my name and also I don't think it necessary at this stage to add to my remarks, but I do believe that the that the overwhelming need here is to strengthen the representation of elected erm members on police authorities and to to er walk er to tear away from the trend as I see it which is in which is erm the er my Right Honourable Friend, the Home Secretary has written into this Bill of increasing the power of the central Government. I I'm certainly not My Lords er un er er an unqualified admirer of all our procedures in local Government, but I do believe that before central Government is further down the road of, of erm usurping functions which are now those of local government it has to persuade a large number of people that its own performance justifies such a course and myself I don't believe it does. My Lords,I I think perhaps that at this stage er a contribution from the cross benches might not be out of place, since the issue we're discussing in this rather complicated set of amendments is as the debate has already shown that one er not to be settled just on party lines. Like the previous speakers I greatly welcome the concessions er proposed by the Government er in the police aspect of the Bill, although I c can't refrain from commenting that I simply cannot understand why they were surprised at the reaction to their original proposal, given what had already been said in this House and by everybody that they consulted, but welcome though these concessions are, er I myself find them falling short of the ideal in three respects. First I don't want to repeat what has been so eloquently said about the need for putting the elected local government representatives in a clear majority, but it certainly seems to me that unless is, this is done the whole concept of the triple partnership and all the fine words about local accountability are seriously at risk. To my mind, the case has not been made out or anything like it er for so fundamental a change. The Noble Earl, Lord has given one o one illustration of how things might work out in practice, perhaps I could have a shot at another. Er under the Government proposals, if the other two non-elected elements on the authority combined and then elected one of their number as chairman, perhaps at a meeting when a couple of the local authority representatives couldn't be present, then the local authority members would in effect be in a minority. These bodies My Lords are after all precepting authorities and I think it crucial that those who've been elected by their local communities should be in a clear majority and I sympathise very much with the er proposition in this regard, set out in the Noble Lord, Lord 's Amendment number twenty-one. As regards size, to come to the second point, the Government amendments still seem to contemplate that sixteen should be the norm er but in practice, I would expect a great many exceptions to be made where for example there are number of constituent authorities er as in Greater Manchester er where there's er a combination of urban areas and large rural areas, or where the authority tends to function through a lot of sub-committees each of which have to be manned as in Greater Man as in Merseyside. I am bound to say My Lords that my own view is still that the size within the limits laid down by statute with a minimum of sixteen or eighteen and maximum of twenty-four would best be determined locally and if we're not going in for a national police force, I still can't see what it has to do with the Secretary of State and why the Home Office should be settling the size of forty-three or so police authorities. At all events I think that the views of the local authorities should ordinarily prevail. It follows from this My Lords that I believe that the Noble Lord, Lord with his well-known moderation and desire to compromise has gone rather too far in meeting Government intentions, but at all events I do ago go along with his proposal that if it is to be done by order, it would be right that the order should be laid before Parliament to make quite sure that justice has been done. Then thirdly, there is this question of how the minority of non-elected members should be composed. I accept that there is a good case for including magistrates er trailing clouds of glory as it were from Tudor times when the Justice of the Peace was local government and then historically through their membership standing joint committees, but I still find it hard to accept, and here with great regret I do differ both from the Noble Lord, Lord and the Noble Viscount, Lord , I is the part of the central government er to make at least five appointments for each authority somewhere between two hundred or three hundred appointments direct? We have heard various explanations of who these people might be and Lord does take some comfort erm from Amendment number twenty-seven in the Bill, but looking at that Amendment, I'm afraid My Lords it doesn't really take us very far. The Government say that in all this, one of their main aims is to go for greater local accountability, er but this h people can hardly claim to know more about the community than the elected representatives, or more for example about educational or social service activities which can be relevant to police concerns and there are many local government member as enquiries have shown who can claim outside management and financial expertise. I am sorry to say this, but my fear is that the reality is that there would be a substantial minority with weighty voting powers which would look to their appointing authority for a lead. In the event of a dispute with the Inspector of Constabulary or with the Home Office, where would their loyalties be and how independent would the auth authority remain? I can put a point rather more crudely than the Lord put it, but I realise that the present Government find it inconceivable, one day they will be in opposition, but I do wonder if they would have shown quite the same enthusiasm for this solution if it had been forthcoming from a Labour Government. I accept the argument which er Noble Viscount put so clearly that there may be a case for bringing in some outside people, but if this is to be done, it seems to me that the police authority itself is the authority best able to judge what particular gaps need to be filled and the one of the amendments to which I am speaking erm does contemplate giving power to the authority to co-opt members with experience which might not other ways be available, for example from among the ethnic minorities. It works for education authorities and it could work here, but the needs do vary a great deal from locality to locality and are not really suitable for discussion for decision in Whitehall, or to be more accurate Queen Anne's Gate. Erm so My Lords I am left in the slight dilemma that erm I'm not er none of the amendments we're discussing are absolutely ideal from my point of view and meet the three difficulties er which I have touched on and indeed the amendment to which I have put my name erm number eleven, would I think be better erm to have a minority of er er a minimum number of eighteen rather than sixteen so as to simplify the arithmetical processes of contemplated er a two-thirds majority, but of the er amendments that we are discussing er if the opinion of the House is to be sort, I myself would go along with Amendment five and the two other associated amendments with which the Noble Lord, Lord has submitted for consideration of the Committee. Hear! Hear! My Lords let me like the Noble Viscount like Lord and the Noble Lord, Lord of Aberdale and indeed the Noble Lord, Lord of Haringey, begin by welcoming the decision of the Government to erm drop the provision in the Bill which gave the Secretary of State the power to appoint the Chairman of the Policy Authority. It was a wholly objectionable idea, it was rightly opposed by very nearly everybody who spoke in the debate and the Government has withdrawn from that decision and that I welcome unreservedly but My Lords a great deal that is objectionable remains in Clause two of this Bill. The Noble Viscount, Lord Whitelaw put it I thought extremely well, extremely persuasively, when he spoke on second reading on this question, not of the Chairman, but of the five Home Office nominees. This is what he said is it really wise to replace local authority members with the Home Secretary's nominees. Will the nominees really know more about local policing and more about their areas than the people from local authorities already do? It is he said extremely doubtful . Well I think that was wholly right that er quotation comes from columns four hundred and eighty, four hundred and eighty-one of the Official Report of the eighteenth of January. But the objections to this provision quite apart from the point identified rightly by the Noble Viscount on second reading, erm raised in my view far wider matters major constitutional issues. It is whether we are prepared to destroy the tripartite system that has been developed in this country since the passing of the Municipal Corporations Act of eighteen thirty five and the Local Government Act of eighteen eighty eight, for make no mistake about it Clause two of this Bill effectively destroys the careful balance that has been developed over more than a century between chief officers, local police authorities and the Home Secretary. Now why is this being done? We have My Lords still had no serious explanation from the Government as to why they have brought this proposals forward. Indeed the Noble Earl Lord paid a warm tribute to the existing system. Let me remind the House again of what he said in our debate on the Government's proposals last year. He said this,in the thirty years that have passed since the previous Police Act became law, the old tripartite structure which consisted police authorities, chief constables and the Home Secretary, has provided an effective police service which can still truthfully be described as not only the best in the world, but also the envy of the world . That comes from the Official Report of the twenty sixty of May last year, column three hundred and forty-five. Now My Lords I believe that view of the Noble Earl is widely shared in this con in in this country and indeed what is even more significant outside this country. As I have indicated in the past, not only is our police service admired, but so is our policing structure. Senior Police Officers from the United States and from our partners in Europe believe that we have succeeded in creating a police service that is politically independent, unlike those in their own countries where all powerful politicians, be they ministers of the interior or mayors, have imposed their will upon the police and often with the most damaging consequences. Er this being so, I find it extraordinary that the Government has brought forward this proposal. There has as been pointed out already, been no independent enquiry, no royal commission, no report from a select committee of the House of Commons and no pressure from outside Parliament. Indeed on the nineteenth of January the Noble Earl Lord told me that of the three hundred and sixty letters which had been received from a wide variety of organisations representing people of totally different political opinions and that following the publication of the White Paper. Not one of those organisations had supported the Government's proposals in relation to the membership of police authorities. Not one organisation wrote to the Home Secretary indicating they were supporting what the Government is now putting for the House. As the House is aware, these proposals are opposed by the entire police service of this country by the Police Federation, by the Police Superintendents Association and by the Association of Chief Police Officers. They have taken this position not because they are resistant to change, but because they believe that these proposals will politicise the British Police Service and they are in my view entirely right to have that view. Instead of the present arrangements which have served us so well, a politician in London for the time being Home Secretary will appoint five members to the authority, or roughly a third when the size of the authority is larger than sixteen. They would be people who'd be able to do that police authority in Norwich, in Chelmsford, in Newcastle in Penrith and all the other force areas in England and Wales. My Lords what has this got to do with the quality of policing in this country? They will be accountable, these political nominees will be accountable of course not to the local community, but to the politician in London of whatever political persuasion. The Noble Earl, Lord has been wounded by the suggestion he confessed to be in the last debate that Mr Howard has the intention of putting political friends into these jobs. Well let's for a moment assume that he has no such intention, that no such idea has ever crossed his mind. I fear that does not even begin to address our concern the assurances which were given on the last occasion about the Home Secretary's attitude by the Noble Earl Lord which will no doubt be repeated later this afternoon, will of course hold good only for as long as Mr Howard is Home Secretary. His successors of whatever party will not be bound by anything the Noble Earl may say this afternoon, it is inconceivable that a Home Secretary in five or ten years time, also what Lord say in February nineteen ninety four, I really mustn't do whatever er I thought of doing in er that given the fact that the Noble Earl Lord gave certain assurances, he will do whatever he considers on that occasion to be right and er that I think the House must recognise. No future governments of whatever political persuasion, erm er I I fear have let me begin that point again. Future governments whatever their political persuasion, will as we all know perfectly well be tempted to fill these posts on police authorities with political allies. On every police authority of sixteen members there will of course as we've heard be five nominees of the politician in London, three Justices of the Peace and eight councillors, coming of course from different political parties as is required by the legislation and in my view rightly required by the legislation. The five Home Secretary nominees with the support even of a minority of say three of the councillors will almost certainly be able to elect the Chairman of the authority who will then have in addition to his deliberatory vote a casting vote. The Noble Lord, Lord said on many occasions Justices of the Peace do not in fact become involved in matters of this sort and the Home Secretary of the day of whatever party he may be a member, will then have his majority on very nearly every police authority in England and Wales. My Lords, do you really want to give the politician in Whitehall this sort of power on the overwhelming majority of police authorities in Britain in England and Wales I should say and remember the other provisions of the Bill. The national policing objectives which will be laid down by the Home Secretary of the day. Performance related pay for chief officers to be determined by the police authority and most significant of all, fixed term contracts for chief officers. Consider the position of the chief officers operational independence which is the immense strength of our system and indeed our guarantee that all powerful politicians in Whitehall and for that matter, members of police authorities cannot apply improper pressures on the police. Allow this clause to go through unamended and there is a serious danger that a future Home Secretary's friends on a police authority could indicate that if a chief officer did not see things the way they did and that of the government of the day his contract might not be renewed. My Lords there is no point in the Government denying that there is such a danger, pressure of precisely this character has been applied on chief officers of police outside our own shores. That is why so many of them admire our system of carefully designed checks and balances which has served this nation so well. My Lords in a few minutes the House will have to vote on this issue. I must tell the House it is probably one of the most momentous in the history of the British Police Service. There is a real danger that the passage of this clause unamended will do the most grievous damage to the British Police Service, that is not simply my view, it is the opinion of every chief officer of police with whom I have discussed this matter. My Lords if this bill had been introduced by a government of a different political persuasion to the present one, I would of course have spoken in precisely the same terms as I do today and I believe that in circumstances of that sort, the overwhelming majority of this House would have taken precisely the same view. Let Members of this House have no doubt of the gravity of the decision they will be making this evening. As I said on second reading, this House is the ultimate guardian of the constitutional liberties of the British people. I hope the House will strike these repugnant provisions from the Bill. Hear! Hear! Hear! Hear! My Lords, I did not speak on the second reading of this Bill, because I spoke extremely critically on in the debate on the White Paper o on er May the 26th last year, but er I would therefore like to er commence by joining with my Right Honourable Friend Lord Whitelaw because I was so critical, in welcoming the changes which the Home Secretary has now proposed. He inherited this Bill a and it is not always easy er to make changes of the radical nature which he has proposed. Er Ministers are often in a very grave difficulty these days, if they don't listen er er they're accused o o of being autocratic,i i if they do listen, er then they're accused of making u-turns, well even the gathering swine didn't have to make a u-turn, a change of direction would have been quite sufficient and I welcome the change of direction which the Home Secretary ha has made erm the objectives of this Bill are I think to be commended, but it is be perfectly clear from the outset that you can't combat crime by antagonising everyone concerned with the enforcement of law and order, the police authorities, the police and the magistrates. I think the Home Secretary has gone a long way to meet many anxieties which were expressed Hear! Hear! but I hope however that he will be willing to go a few steps further. I myself think er as other er speakers in this debate have said, I think it's important that there should be an absolute majority of elected members serving on the police authority. Hear! Hear! Preferably by retaining the two-thirds majority, but at least ensuring as my Noble Friend Lord has suggested, a clear majority and I myself will go on reiterating the principle, enunciated by Professor in the er and also much commended by some elements in the Conservative Party and he said you cannot have real effective democracy without real effective local self government, and he said that in the light of his experiences in pre-war Germany. If I might repeat again what I suggested in the debate on the White Paper er there is a comparison perhaps pushed a little far w which what the national socialist did in Germany by saying a locally elected major-like does not represent the wishes er an er interests of the people of Cologne, as well as perhaps an appointed business man with the name of Krupp. Now that may be pushing it too far, but there are real dangers in giving a Home Secretary of any power, er the powers that this bill, bill suggests. We also look at legislation on the basis, not that you give powers to a good minister, but you may be putting ho powers into the hands of a bad minister,i in future, in future years. The point has been made about the importance of having local businessmen. I think it's been established that thirty-eight per cent of the people who now serve on police authorities have business e e experience a an and I I really like my Lor Noble Lord, Lord , er don't really appreciate the need for the changes that are suggested in this bill. I would ask the Government t to think again and to use er a phrase coined by er Sir Winston Churchill, trust the people. Now the police authorities a and the local authorities and the magistrates may be thought to be indulging in special preening, but I do assure Your Lordships that they really are not alone in expressing their anxieties er about the er er er this bill and what it proposes, for example, if I may, I would like to refer to a letter which I received from Justice, chaired by my Noble Friend Lord Alexander of and with his Vice-chairman er er Lord and er they say as an all-party human rights organisation, Justice considers that the composition of police authorities is an important constitutional issue effecting the independence of policing. Although we accept the Government's recent concessions go some way to meeting the concerns expressed at second reading, we believe an additional amendment is crucial. This amendment should ensure that there is a majority of elected members serving on the police authority, either by retaining the present two-thirds requirements, or by providing for a simple majority and they give two main reasons. First a majority of elected members simply provides a better form of local government accountability and secondly, it's a necessary counter-balance to other proposals in the Bill and helps to preserve the checks and balances of the tripartite relationship. I believe these checks and balances built up over many years are essential to the maintenance of true democracy in this country and I commend to Your Lordships Amendments five, eight and eleven for those reasons. Hear! Hear! I er can be quite short about this. The real trouble with these provisions is that they gather more power into the hands of the Home Secretary. Er what whatever may be said, whatever his intentions are, this is a centralising Bill which er which strengthens Whitehall, weakens local authorities and local representation. That is the objection er the whole fundamental objection to what is proposed in the Bill as it is a centralising measure was shown quite clearly er er a a by the desire of the Home Secretary to increase his own power as when he intended to appoint the Chairman absolute impudence in my view er to to suggest tha that he he should have had the power to appoint a chairman and although congratulations have now been er er poured upon him for withdrawing to wh what's a position, I would sooner congratulate your er Your Lordships, er all of whom spoke in such a manner that it would have been impossible for the Home Secretary to have carried the measure through. So er er er this was this was and is still gathering more powers into the hands of the Home Secretary. He is if I may take this question of the appointment of the independent members, he has certainly separated himself directly from their appointment by having this regional instrument. All applications will be considered in the first instance by one of six regional short listing panels, each regional panel will consist of a professional recruitment consultant and two people independent of government and I shall select those I wish to appoint as members of police authorities from the short list. So he's separated himself at least from that he's pu he's put at least one barrier between him. Of course he is still er going to presumably appoint the regional panels, the professional recruitment consultant and the two people who themselves will be independent of government. He is going to do that, so he was going to have a hand in that he's gon not really not going to have a hand in it, he is going to be directly responsible for selecting the panel which will select the independent members on the short list and recommend them to him. Well, I suppose that er er i it i it is a barrier of some, some sort, some sort, but it doesn't strike me as being a very strong one, er and all of this you see is and I say this to Noble Lords in all parts of the House, all of this is part of the continuing destruction of local authorities Hear! Hear! It is all part of gathering more power, whatever may be said by the Government about his intentions int into the hands of Whitehall and into the hands of ministers who at the moment will be Conservative, but very shortly I think are likely to be Labour. That's an argument that ought to appeal to the Noble Lords opposite if nothing else does! But erm er I I I I really feel very strongly about this that we all know that democracy doesn't just consist of electing a a national parliament once in five years, we all know the strength of democracy comprises that where the complex of local institutions of local bodies made up of people serving in different ways, not necessarily elected, that is what comprises democracy and it is that which is being undermined again by this measure in this in this Bill and I do say to Your Lordships that for the reasons given by both my Noble Friends er Lord and by, by the Noble Lord, Lord Lord er that there has been no demand for this Hear! Hear! locally er there is no as far as I know no, no requirement that it should happen except the desire of the Home Secretary to strengthen his control or his influence in, in these bodies. Now I'm against that and I'm therefore against I regret to say what the Noble Lord, Lord said, and I'm extremely sorry to see that he has moved on this particular matter er because th there is no case, that has been really made out for this. Of course you may get some probably some very good people a added, I don't know wh wh wh they'll be none of us knows, er they're are going to nowhere that they're going to get their expenses, they're also going to get their allowances, I don't know what those allowances will be er and I wouldn't assume that they're necessarily going to lessen their independents because they receive allowances, but it is weakened, it is weakening the powers of the local institutions which are an essential part of our democratic society in this country. For that reason I am totally opposed to it. I believe that the House should insist er that the not only should th should be a majority o of local of of of local authority members, but these so-called independent members are really quite superfluous to requirements they are p they are creating another kind of semi-quango, they are concentrating more power into the hands of the Home Secretary and for that reason, although I do not wholly agree with the amendments that have been put down, I shall certainly vote for them all. My Lords I would like to speak amendments that are down in my name er I've er got Amendments number seventeen and eighteen and numbers twenty-two er and number a hundred and twenty-five. Twenty-o twenty-two and a hundred and twenty-five I don't propose to speak to because er they are closely related to Government amendments, but I shall talk about it in another respect, but er seventeen and eighteen are in the theme of what so many Noble Lords have said, including the Noble Lord, Lord , and that is the importance of the local people er being er on these er thes th these these new police authorities and I seek to remove er the five appointed or any appointed people er by the Secretary of State. My Lords for reasons that have already been explained to Your Lordships and which I will not pursue yet for, er it seems that everybody's agreed that it is important that the erm local authority representatives should be in the majority and I have to admit that my amendments do not go that far because I was concentrating on getting the magistrates back where they ought to be, er but er that is one thing, the other is that it er was an interesting point that er the Noble Lord, Lord of Greenwich raised, that my Noble Friend Lord Whitelaw er at columns four eighty and four eight one er questioned whether it was indeed appropriate that er the Home Secretary should make these appointments. My Lords, I believe that it is extremely difficult to get the right sort of people erm to do these things. Most of the people who voluntarily er want to give public service are either er local councillors or local magistrates I'd like to start off by reading a well, a fairly well known passage, it's in Luke, chapter twenty three dealing with the part of the crucifixion of Jesus Luke, chapter twenty three. I'm gonna read from verse thirty two. Luke, chapter twenty three, and reading from verse thirty two. It's a , during the course of the time of the crucifixion, Jesus is on the cross, and it says there there were two others also who were criminals were being led away to be put to death with Jesus and they came to place called the skull, there they crucified him and the criminals, one on the right, and the other on the left. But Jesus was saying, father, forgive them for they do not know what they are doing. And they cast lots, dividing up his garments among themselves. And the people stood by looking on and even the rulers were sneering at him Excuse me. And even the rulers were sneering at him saying, he saved others, let him save himself if this is the Christ of God! His chosen one. The soldiers also mocked him. Coming up to him offering him sour wine and saying if you're the King of the Jews save yourself. Now, there was also an inscription above him, this is the King of the Jews. And one of the criminals who was hanged there was hurling abuse at him saying, you are not the Christ! Save yourself and us. But the other answered, and rebuking him said, do you not even fear God since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? And we indeed, justly, for we are receiving what we deserve for our deeds, but this man has done nothing wrong. And he was saying, and er he was saying, Jesus, remember me when you come in your kingdom. Jesus said to him, truly I say to you, today you shall be with me in paradise. I wonder if you have ever been in that awful position of facing what you thought was certain death. Perhaps you were seriously ill and er, there seemed little hope of your recovery. Perhaps you were facing some danger, some, some risk and it seemed almost certain that short of a miracle you were gonna die. And I wonder what sort of thoughts would have been going through your mind. Maybe we , it may well be that you were with other people, I wonder what sort of things if you were in a condition of speaking , what sort of things you would have been saying to them. Now, I suppose for most of us,bu bu because of the very fact we're here this morning they have been few and far between , such experiences. Perhaps, what is more common is that, we may have spent time with someone who was dying, their last few hours, their few minutes. If they were not unconscious, I wonder what sort of conversation would be going on between us and them. What sort of things would we, would we have been saying? What would we be asking them? Well, in this passage that we've been reading, we have just such a conversation, two men who are on the verge of death. Death, it can only be hours away for both of them and here they have this conversation. It was in that sense one of the strangest interviews that anybody ever had with Jesus. Not only is the a sto , the account here of a, a death bed conversion, but the one who is saving is also in the process of dying. Jesus had had many interviews with people, we've looked at some of them over these past few weeks. The time when he met with Nicodemus the religious leader, the time he went out of his way to meet with a woman of Somaria in her dire need. The other occasion that we looked that, er a week or so back when he called down Zaccheus, from that tree in which he was hiding last week his judge, Pilate but of all of those interviews and th the many others that we haven't looked at, this surely must one of the strangest, as Jesus himself is in the process of dying and as he is dying he is confronted with another person who has a need. But Jesus, you're need is as great as anybody else's, your pain, your suffering, your physical suffering was every bit as great as those around you, why have you bothered with others? Isn't that so often our story? When we are in need we can forget all about other people. It doesn't matter their need it's poor me! What about me? What about my need? What about my requirements? What about my suffering? But we see here how Jesus, apart from anything else, deals with his own suffering, he deals with it by ministering to the needs of other people. And this surely then, must be one of the most strange and one of the most wonderful interviews that our Lord ever had when he was here on earth with this dying thief. But he was more than a thief, he was a, he was a re , he was a rebel, he was a terrorist or a freedom fighter, depending which way you wanted to look at it, and he was dying for his crimes but he wasn't alone, because there there was this man that we have been talking, there was Jesus, and there was another one, another criminal on the other side. And we find that, this is all in keeping with what God had promised. All there in, in line with his prophecy, way back in Isaiah chapter fifty three, it tells us that he was numbered with the transgressors, that he died with sinful men, with with law breakers, and here it is, it's happening right in front of th the very eyes of the Jewish leaders and the Jewish authorities. Our Lord's intention in coming into the world was to save men and women, to seek out and to save sinners. Remember, thirty odd years previous to this event, the word had come to Mary, his mother, to Joseph you will call his name Jesus because he will save his people from their sins. And later on writing to Timothy, the apostle Paul in the first chapter of the first book in verse fifteen, he says,it is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance that Christ Jesus came in to the world to save sinners . This was his purpose, this was his reason for coming into the world, not to be a good man, not to be a, er a great leader, not to give us some model that we can, you know, plan our life out and try and lie up to his standards, he says I have come to give my life as a ransom, I have come to save and to seek that which was lost. And here, in this incident, as he himself is dying and in his physical pain and torment, is carrying out this very work of seeking out and saving those who will turn to him, those who will put their trust in him he is saving the lost. And we see in a wonderful way how great the compassion of Jesus was, and is in reaching out and rescuing those who are lost. Here we see our Lord suffering the most terrible agony, and yet in the midst of his own sorrow and pain and and torment, he thinks of this dying thief and extends his grace and his mercy to him. Perhaps the book Lamentations is not the book you normally turn to to find words of encouragement, but they're a tremendous encouragements to be found in it. Listen what the prophet says there in the third chapter, he says,this I recall to my mind , and he's talking about the time of his own affliction, the time when he is going through it, the time when nobody loves him, the time when everybody's against him, when he's suffering and he's in pain, the time when life is full of bitterness for him, he says this I recall to my mind therefore I have hope. The Lord's loving kindness indeed never cease for his compassions never fail . And here Jesus is demonstrating that. His compassions never fail. His loving kindnesses, they never cease. Here in his dying hour Jesus is showing that in reaching out to this man. But as we said the other week th the deepest, the most important significance of what Jesus did then, of what Jesus said then is not just of the historical account, but that he is able and willing to say and to do exactly the same today in your experience and in mine. What he did for that man on the cross, he's ready and willing to do for every one of us. The incident may have happened nineteen hundred years ago there's the old hymn, the verse reminds us, picks out that very story and it says,the dying thief rejoice to see that fountain in his day, and there may I, though he wash all my sins away . And that verse from William Cooper's hymn, it takes up that great historical event. That tremendous happening in that man's life, and it links it with he present and it applies to you and to me and says, this can be our experience as well. So let's just, as we hurry along this morning notice several things about this interview that this man had with Jesus. I'm never quite surely really, to be honest, whether these individuals had an interview with Jesus, or Jesus had an interview with them. Because, whether they sought out Jesus or whether they thought they were doing the the probing and the questioning, really it was Jesus who was in charge of the interview. You may have watched er, certain chat shows on the, on the television, or heard them on the radio, and er depending who the person being interviewed is, very often it actually changes, and it's the interviewer who is really being put through it it's the, it's the person being interviewed who is in charge of the situation and that was the case here with Jesus. But let's just notice two or three things i in this particular interview. The first thing that we see, and it's so obvious, is that the way of salvation is so wondrously simple! It couldn't be easier! You know there are so many people who think it is hard to get saved, who think it is hard to come to Christ, and to become a Christian. Well the problem is, you see, the devil has blinded their eyes, he had blinded the eyes of men and women so that they think that they can't do this, but what has actual happened, Paul tells us,i i in, in Corinthians in the first er, in Two Corinthians in chapter four, and verse four, he says,the God of this world has blinded the eyes of the unbelieving that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God . And there is this shroud, this covering, but the thing is, God takes that away so that we can see. And so it's not difficult to become a Christian, it is not hard to get saved. Sometimes, as Christians, we are guilty of making it difficult for people to become Christians. We put all sorts of rules in, we we make them undergo various periods of er,o of probation before we're wor , we've we're, we're willing to call them Christians. Remember the Philippine jailer, he cried out there to the apostle Paul who was, er in jail there with Silas they, they'd been that tremendous earthquake, and they were released, all their fetters was was were broken, and the prisoners were all, could all have escaped! And the Je , the Philippine jailer, he cries out a question which, I'm sure he doesn't even know what he means when he calls it out, he's not thinking of heaven, he's not thinking of the future life, he's not thinking of having his sins dealt with, but he just cries out, what must I do to be saved? And the apostle Paul he gets open the scrolls and he starts in Genesis and he explains the plan of salvation, and he tells him what he's gotta do, and he explains all the requirements, and about three or four hours later the man's mind is completely blurred, he doesn't understand a word of it, it's gone way beyond him, course Paul doesn't do that, he shoots back the answer straight away, believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved. And when we introduce anything more than that we are actually setting up obstacles to people becoming Christians. Reduce down it's glorious simplicity. It is a case of believing on Jesus Christ. There's a whole load more that follows after that, but the, but the follows doesn't get us saved! The thing that gets us saved, the thing that makes us a new creation in Christ, the thing that makes us a Christian is putting our trust in Jesus Christ, believing in the Lord Jesus Christ. So it is not difficult to become a Christian, it is so very simple! God has made the way so plain and so easy understand. Way back in Isaiah in thirty fifth chapter, the er, the prophet there gives a little picture, and he uses the illustration, he says this way is so plain, it's so simple, he said that even the wayfaring man, the traveller, though he is a fool, he doesn't need to make any mistakes in it, he doesn't need to err in the way, it is so simple, it is so easily understood . See exactly how the Lord saved this man. He was simply saved by asking the Lord to save him, that's all he had to do. Lord remember me when you come in your kingdom! I don't suppose for one moment that man fully understood the import of what he was saying. He didn't know, he couldn't give you a theological explanation of what the kingdom of God was. I don't suppose he ever, ever understood it. He didn't live long enough to understand it. But he just calls out, it's a cry of help! Lord help me! Lord save me! Lord rescue me! And the answer comes, you'll be with me today in paradise from Jesus. Paul again when he's writing to Romans in chapter ten verse twelve and thirteen, he says,there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord is over all. Abounding in riches to for all who call upon him. For whoever will call upon the name of the Lord will be saved . And that's all it is. Calling out and being rescued. Now, the important thing that we see there in being rescued, is that you are totally dependent on the rescuer. I remember, when I was doing my lifesaving certificates, that one of the very first things that we learnt, was that you have to, as the life sa , the life saver, you had to be in charge of the situation. Don't expect them to help you, because all their help will be a hindrance. Don't let them help you. And so if you swam up to somebody who was in difficulty, and you approach them from the front their automatic reaction is to throw their arms around you, don't let them do it! Because they'll drown themself and bring you down with them. And some, as it meant, if that, if they had done that you actually have to put your foot in their sto , chest, or their stomach and push them away from you, and swim around and come at them from the back. Because you had to do the rescuing. Once they started doing anything there was trouble. And this is it, this plan of salvation that is so simple. He has got to do the rescuing. The minute we try to do anything we're in trouble! We make a mess of it! It is all of him. Lord, you remember me, I can't do anything for myself, will you remember me? And Jesus says, yes, you'll be with me in paradise. So what happened? He felt and confessed his need of salvation. He believed the Lord could and would save him, and he committed himself to the Lord and trusted him to save him. And that is what salvation is. That is what it is. Our need, believing in the Lord and committing our way to him. And that's the only way we can be saved. There is no other way. It is as simple, as glorious and as wonderful as that! As we've already read, whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. Have we called on him? Have we trusted him? Have we put our confidence in him. Then we see again, that, no matter how great the need, it didn't make any difference. The vilest sin, or the worst offender, the worst person could be saved. I was speaking to somebody about this er, a few days ago, and you know they said erm I said, in a way that doesn't really apply today, because none of us like to think we're bad. We all like to think we're good. But it doesn't matter whether we're good, or whether we're bad we all need salvation, and we all can be saved. This man, he was a criminal, he was one of the worst, he had broken the laws of the land and he was being crucified for that reason but the measure of his sin, the gravity of his sin, did not alter his chance of sa being saved. Didn't make one bit of difference to it. There are some folk who think that they are too bad to be saved, there are other folk who don't think they're bad enough to need saving, both are equally wrong! We all need it! Whether we're bad or not so bad, whether we think we have gone beyond the pale or whether we think we're better than the other person, we all need a saviour because we're all sinners. In Matthew chapter nine, in verse thirteen Jesus said I did not come to call the righteous but sinners . They're the only people that Jesus can rescue. They're the only ones he needs to rescue. But the thing is, we're all sinners, for all have sinned and come short of his standard. The good, the bad, the criminal, the religious Nicodemus that we saw a few weeks ago, all are sinners. Eddie Stride in one of his books he makes this statement, he says,my jealousy, your envy, someone else's pride, needs the pardon bought with the blood of Christ at Calvary, as much as someone else's promiscuity, or perversion . And we like to tabulate things, and we like to think that who is a bad sinner, who's not such a bad person, we all need saving, we all need rescuing! Our nice respectable sins need cleansing as much as the worse possible sins. Then again, we see that salvation is instantaneously received. Look at the prayer of this man, Jesus remember me when you come in your kingdom. Then the response of Jesus, truly I say to you today, you shall be with me in paradise. You can't read this incident and not believe in sudden conversion. The man didn't have a long time to go through a process, he didn't have a long time to find where he was on on the scale,a and er, you know, from one stage to the next stage, to the next stage, to got through a pre-evangelism and then another stage, and another stage, the man didn't have time he was dying! And the moment he called on Jesus, Jesus heard him and rescued him, he was instantly saved, he was instantly received by Christ. This man was suddenly brought into the kingdom and given the assurance of salvation. Just as we saw a few weeks ago Zaccheus was, er, between him being up the tree and hitting the ground, that man was converted. He came to know Jesus Christ. And salvation is not a long drawn out affair it's not something we have to go through all sorts of processes to to se , to finally achieve it, it's there as God's free gift waiting to be received. It's not on an instalment plan. Pay so much of it, do so much and then you'll get it. But there, the moment we put our in him, we receive. At that very second that we call upon the Lord, just as this dying thief called on him, the Lord will hear us and make his answer instantly the same as he did for this man. The thief said when? And Jesus said, today. And as we read through, as we flick over the pages of the bible we find that coming again, and again. There back in Joshua, Joshua he issues the challenge to the, the children of Israel, in Joshua chapter twenty four, he says,and if it is a disagreeable in your sight to serve the Lord choose for yourself today whom you will serve, whether the God's which your father served, which are beyond river, or the God's of the Amorites in whose land you are living, but as for my and my husband we will serve the Lord ! The wise man in Proverbs twenty seven, he says,do not boast about tomorrow for you do not know what a day may bring forth . And the apostle Paul in Corinthians in chapter six he says,at the acceptable time I listen to you, and on the day of salvation I helped you. Behold now is the acceptable time! Behold now is the day of salvation ! Then we see again that salvation does not depend on ceremonies and rights, good deeds or service. You know, this man who was hanging on the cross beside Jesus he had not been christened, he hadn't been dedicated, he had never been to a confirmation class in his life, he had never been baptized, he had never been received into church membership he had never even gathered around the Lord's table! Now when we open the scriptures we find clear commands, that th that there are, when we come to Jesus and accept him as our saviour then we are to obey him and we are to be baptized! Jesus says if you love me you will keep my commandments. And so there is that command. If we have come to him and received him as our saviour then if we are gonna live na in, if we are not gonna live in a state of disobedience then we have got to be baptized whether we choose to, whether we like to it's a, it's a simple thing, it's not a matter of choice it's the straightforward command of the Lord's. Repent, believe and be baptized. So while there's that clear command to be baptized. There is the clear command to join in fellowship with the Lord's people and not to forsake our, the gi the assembling of ourselves together er, as some folk do, but to meet together with God's people, to grow in his family. There is the command to do, come around the Lord's table. The Lord commands, he says this do in remembrance of me. And as meet around just now, it is not an optional extra, it's not something we do if we choose to do, it is a command, and he says if you love me you will keep my commands. But these things are not necessary to our salvation. They don't get us saved. They don't get us into God's kingdom. Getting into the kingdom becoming a follower of Jesus Christ is not dependant on any of these that we do, but rather on what he has already done. His sacrifice for us and our receiving and putting our trust in him. Now, we do these things after we're saved, they get us saved, we do them after we've saved as a confession that we are trusting Jesus Christ as our saviour. When after I became a Christian I obeyed and was baptized, it wasn't to make me a better person it wasn't to make me er, someone who was, er more pious or more religious, or of having greater favour with God, it was done because he had commanded it in his word, and I was identifying myself with him. I was saying publicly, I belong to Jesus Christ! I am his follower. I am dying to that old life, to that old self and I am following in this new life, and therefore, I am going through this, this symbolic act of being baptized, of dying to the old and being raised a new life in Jesus Christ. When I come round the Lord's table, it's not to make me a better Christian, it's not to make me a better person, a more religious person, a more spiritual person it's a confession of faith, apart from being an act of obedience, it is a confession of faith. As I take the bread and the wine, I am saying, I affirm my trust in the sacrifice of Jesus Christ for me. As I take this bread and drink this wine, I am affirming to men, and to angels and to demons, that I believe Jesus Christ died for me, and I identify myself with him in his sacrifice for me. I believe that his sacrifice is sufficient. That's one of the reasons why it is important that we come around the Lord's table. It's not an optional extra, it is a case of identifying ourselves with him, and Jesus said if you're ashamed to identified with me, there on that day I will be ashamed to be identified with you. But these things don't bring us salvation. They don't make us Christians. But they are confessions of the faith that we have, the trust that we have in Jesus Christ. And so we do them after we are saved as a confession that we are trusting Christ as our saviour and because we love him. You notice this man, this dying thief, he was saved without doing one single good deed. In fact, his life was a life of crime. He had robbed, he had murdered! He had created havoc in the land. He was guilty of terrorist activities! May have been, well have been many people who suffered at his hands. He hadn't done anything good, it was on the contrary. But it wasn't his deeds that made him a Christian, it was his trust in Jesus Christ. The song writer, the hymn writer reminds us in those tremendous words of that other old hymn, when he says nothing in my hand I bring, simply to your cross I cling. Wash me saviour or I die. I said, he said I can't do it, you've got to do it for me! Then finally, we can be absolutely sure of our salvation. This man was. I don't know when he had last closed his eyes with a clear conscience but he did that day. He had had assurance from Jesus, that although he was dying, although he was in physical torment and pain, going through one of most excruciating, awful deaths imaginable! And yet, he had an assurance, he had a peace, he had heard the words of Jesus, today, you will be with me in paradise. He was sure that he was saved because he had the words of Christ and they had given him assurance. What presumption it would have been if the man had assumed this without hearing from Christ. But equally, how presumptuous it would have been if he had not believed it after Christ had spoken it. He had the word of Christ, the promise of Christ to rest on, just the same as you and I have. How do you know you're a Christian? It's got nothing to do with your feelings. It's got nothing to do with the fact that,you'll like, or don't like going to church now . That you enjoy reading the bible. That you find pleasure in praying. It's got nothing to do with that at all. How do you know, how do I that I am a Christian? How do you know that you are a Christian? Listen to what it says in John chapter five Truly, truly I say unto you , this is Jesus speaking he who hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and does not come into judgement but has passed out of death into life . The only assurance that you have, and that I have that we are Christians is what God has said in his word. It's nothing to do with what the preacher says. It's nothing to do with any experience that we have had. It's nothing to do with anything that we've heard from others. It's nothing to do with our feelings, whatever they may or may not be. They will be feelings oh a tremendous feeling! A sense of relief as the, as the burden of guilt is removed! A sense of joy and peace amidst all the problems and difficulties that still are there. But that's not the ground of our assurance. That's perk, the perks and the bonuses that go with it but the contract, that's what really counts isn't it? The contract is what he has said in his word. God has said it, and that settles it for ever! And there is not a feeling that I can have, whether it's produced from my emotion, or whether it comes from hell itself, there is not a feeling that can come my way, there is not a lie of the devil that can alter that truth! It can make me feel like doubting, it can bring me to the place where I question it, but it doesn't alter the fact we can be totally sured, totally certain of our salvation, because God has said it. If you believe in me you shall be saved! Have we heard his word? Is that what our confidence is based on? The authority of his word, and we can be quite sure that we possess eternal life. Whatever anybody else says, whatever doubts fi experiences may come our way that we will never ever be judged for a for our sins, because Christ has taken that judgement on himself, he has been judged for us, the price has been paid. Christ borne that judgement for us and we have passed from death into life life! Let me give you one scripture in closing, in two Timothy chapter one and verse twelve,the apostle says, for this reason, he says I suffer these things but I am not ashamed, for I know whom I have believed, and I am convinced that he is able to guard what I have entrusted to him until that day . How does the apostle know? Because he has the word of assurance from God himself! God has said it! That has settled the whole matter. And that's the basis of your salvation and my salvation. That's what gave this fellow certainty. That's why he could end those last few minutes or hours of his life, in pain, but in peace, because he had the word, the assurance, the promise from Christ. In response to his cry for help today, you will be with me in paradise. Can I give you out there. Er for five thirty. That one that's waiting. Thank you very much. What happened was that it was the son and I couldn't get he was given and he's never had it in his life . The wee man must have asked for it. No. He probably told you that just to explain things. But it was a wee thing. He wouldn't. But the computer would do it. It would get our own computer printout . I don't know But pandemonium this afternoon. How do you remain so calm when there're all these things? How do you manage it? What's the point in getting them all stuffy about it? But there's hundreds of people out there. Ah. Take it as it comes. Just Ah. take it as it comes. that . Oh aye that's the one Sandra's it should have been a hundred or something. Mm. Don't know why because it just means he has to take Ah. it three times a day instead of once. Thank you very much Doctor . I'll give them to Right. Jus copy to you the first time Yeah. Please. I'm, I'm in before the doctor! . Aye. Thought they'd lost you there. Well now, what can I do for you tonight? Er it's an insurance line doctor. Just to keep me right. It's my thumb. That's the excuse I've been giving, and Mhm. that's the one I'm sticking to. How're things doing? Alex has not been too well the last couple of days, you know. Yeah. Doctor was in this morning. Mm. Er but I, as I say, there's nothing that anybody can do really No, it's you know? just a matter of time. I meant to phone up this morning for an appointment for Doctor , but I forgot all about it. I really did, of course she was the nurse came in, first it was the doctor, Mhm. then it was the priest, then it was another nurse, then the priest and she was getting a bit agitated, everybody coming in to see everybody. She'll be up the pole. Aye. Agitated, you know. Oh, I wish they'd all bloody leave me alone. say something like that, oh no. Och aye. Och aye. You must, I mean she She's no more medicine left. She's no medicine left? No, not the stuff that you gave her anyway. Right. That's and she knows, she knows perfectly well what's what's happening. I mean she's not stupid. Och aye. Do you really think so Doctor? She's not stupid. I mean she's lived long enough, she's seen it all. Aye.. She's seen it all before. And they, they get very very quickly suspicious when, you know, when the nurse is coming in and the priest's coming in and the doctor's coming in. They're not so daft. We don't, we don't give them much credit No, well. but they're not they're not so stupid. Well, as soon as the doctor mentioned hospital, she was awfully upset. Who d who mentioned the hospital? The doctor. Did he? Actually, she had mentioned it herself first. Mhm. She said, er er no, I think it was the doctor actually mentioned hospital. I see you've been to the hospital, or something like that. You know? Mhm. With the records. Aye. Oh, I'm not going back, I'm not going back there . After that she was awfully upset. So I mean that day we had to tell a lot of lies, you know, like that. Oh. No, the doctor just meant that er y you were at the hospital, That's right. you've not to go back yet. Oh,just wait till it comes and see what happens. Aye, just The doctor said something about a tube in her to stop the, to stop what was it now, the doctor said there's a tube, they put a tube in her and they don't Try and ease the swallowing? Aye, it's something about the jaundice. And it, it would ease the jaundice as well. Aye. It's it won't, it won't er No, he says it's it won't stay like that. No. It won't stay like that. What, what they did was they took er on, on the inside, there's er there's the liver, in there er just at the end of the stomach. And what they did was they put a tube from here into the next bit of the stomach, that comes round from underneath there, put a tube across there Ah, right. so they didn't have to go through this bit Aha. because that bit's all full Right, right. you know? So they put a tube across there. So the stuff coming down, goes through there and then it goes into the rest of the tubes, and away through. But that will last for a certain length of time, Aha. until this grows down past that bit. Or up over the top of that bit. Ah, I see. Or it pushes the tube out of shape. Aha. Aha. Sometimes bends the tube round about. Aye. But I mean it might take another two weeks, it might take another two months. You can never tell. But Aye. Right. Aha. Aha. I mean she'll just gradually, because this bit between here and the stomach is the bit that most of the food gets digested in, Aye. she'll not have much of an appetite, because that bit's not working properly, and it's not getting a chance to go through her When you're ready what would be what things will we shall we start with? Well erm sort of how how you how you became involved in the erm in the strike. In the strike, are we starting off with this stuff? Yes. Not now? Yes now. Oh. Well we started off and we were working for . And we and then we had been working for him for about ten or eleven years on this contract that he had for us. And erm his son came along to take over from him. And he put a new table in the mill. And erm being as he put a new table in the mill he thought we could work for thirty pound a week less, on this table. And we could produce more slate on erm thirty pound a week less in wages. Well none of the lads were prepared to take that on, cos we'd been on this contract with for the last eleven years. And was quite happy and all the workers was happy until this son came along . And that's what's got us fixed in all this trouble. You said that you'd worked erm quite happily for er t t Oh yeah everybody was happy. Yeah. Aha. Can you give me some idea of erm h how you started up with him in the first place? Well he bought this slate quarry to scrap it. I believe he er didn't give much for the quarry. But somebody put him on there was slate to be had, only a if you had a machine to clear. And he started clearing to get this slate, and he got at the slate quite quick. But we were working for him then for fourteen pound a week. And make preparing the mill ready for the slate. To ma make putting fixing new tables in and that. And erm anyway we got more from the unemployment exchange that prepared to work for him for fourteen pound, when we could have a eighteen pound on the dole. Four pound a week more on the dole, cos we were having elected earnings and tax rebates on the dole and it and it made it up to eighteen pound. And we were working for for fourteen pound at that time. I sup erm at that time was there a a a a lot of men who had work in the quarries Well on the dole? Well everybody that was working for him had always worked in the quarries all their life, and they er they just been working for the slater company before the quarry shut down. And that's the time they were put off work when the quarry, of the why the quarry shut it, they had too much expense on the electricity to pump the water from this from the mine. That's why er the quarry shut. Or the quarry would have carried on with this slate mine. How many p people d di did he take on at that time then, when he first took over ? There was about six to start with. How did he select them? Well he knew they were all slate quarry workers, and that's how he went on to them. He knew they were all slate quarry workers and they were prepared to work the slate again. Every one of them. Were they were they men who had erm a l lot of expertise in in in the slate? Yes all their lives you know they'd worked. We've all worked in these slate mines since we left school. I I left school before the war when I was fourteen, we all went in the slates. Cos everybody was working in the slate then. Hundreds of men working in the slates. My fathers and grandfathers all worked in the slate, they seen nothing only slate. And when the war broke out of course, everybody left the mines. Cos there was more money else where. We were working for, my father was er earning one pound sixteen shillings a week before the war. When the war broke out that made a world of difference for everybody. The wages stepped up. I went into erm aer aerodrome you know be we were having working seven days a week and we were having seven pound a week. A pound a day and we were millionaires weren't we? Aye millionaires. Only because the war broke out. Yes. And then from there, in nineteen forty three, I was called up. And was going back to twelve and six a week after, to the forces. And I wasn't long in this country they shoved me over, Normandy, on the landing in Normandy. And all I got for that was a couple of tin medals, uh uh, aye dear Aye. When you er when started up again, opened up the the quarry. Yeah. Can you tell me all the sort of work that you were al er engaged in? Well to prepare the mill, we were erm concreting and or doing knocking all the old tables down and preparing get the er big saw table in, you know to diamond saw table in to cut the slate up. Erm or any other little fork lift there which the quarry belonged then. And was on to us, he only had four thousand five hundred that's all the money he had, that's all I've got four thousand five hundred. And believe me in a couple of weeks after we got the slate for him. We had a new fork lift, we had tools galore, everything was coming in. There must be money in slate. And in no time after that built a massive big bungalow for himself. He had a brand new Mercs. Every money was coming in everywhere. From a poor man he didn't half step up. Aye in no time, cos there must be money in slate Aye. Mm. Yes he stepped up, right diddly me. And then his son they had a Mercs each, and he's built a new bungalow now in they've all got massive big places, it's fantastic the money they made out of it. And this is what they ga ga done with the lads in the end. Just shoved them off, put them on the dole,and there was some young lads that I I wasn't worried myself, cos I I'm in my sixties, but there was lads there with mortgages and kids. He didn't think of them either eh. There's lads of real trouble there, but there was lads you know young lads with kids and mortgages and and we had er he I'm sixty all your worries are over aren't they. But there are young lads there. What he didn't worry about them either he didn't care who who went, just that he we he had his own way. W w when you were starting off aga when you were starting off with erm was there any sense in that you were all including him involved in a joint enterprise to g g g g get the quarry really being profitable? Well what he said to us, if I go up we go up together, he said. If I make money I I'll make you I can pay you as well, if I go up I mean if I go down, he said, I can go up or down as well , he said. That's what he said, and he kept on saying he had only four thousand five hundred pounds or something, that's all the money he had, he was on about that all the time. But he he didn't half make money cos he had nothing before that. He had that coal business, but no money, he had no money there. But that slate quarry put him on his feet all right. W w w why do you think his approach t t to the extraction of slate was successful. Where as the previous owners had erm had great problems with f fl fl flooding? Well he worked the slates from outside you know. They were all slate there, the old new there was slate there, but they weren't prepared to get the machines to clear it, at it. Where as he bought these machines and cleared up the rubbish to get at the slate. Cos the lads knew where the slates was, and it wasn't far from the surface. There was plenty of slate there but he he just slate mines wouldn't pay t to get these machines, and course this grant story this had you know millions of pounds of grants for these machines and that. We know he had fantastic grants, we know how much he had, you know when we went on this strike. We got to know all the money he had from these grants to get all these machines and all these. Every penny he was paying he was having grant for it from the government Aye. Where you aw aw aw a a aware of that you were in a a b business that was succeeding when you were working for him? Oh yes, we everybody knew of that of the slate we were making, you know cos erm we were making about two thousand duchess a day. What In twenty four fourteens and twenty t twenty two hours an this fantastic you know, the slate cos it was good slate there. And there's no contract to start with, the first year or two there was no contract at all. And we had terrible job getting a contract off him. He wouldn't give a contract and he wanted us to work like on the, make plenty of slate but he wouldn't you know, he wasn't prepared, thee to pay. But we did manage to get the contract from him after. But he wasn't prepared to give a contract to start with. Out of all the slate mines, of all the years that has gone I've always worked on a contract. That's been the bo the system of these slate mines. There was used t the work in the old days, there was used to be two underground and two in the mill, they used to be partners. The the lads underground used to send the blocks up, and the lads in the mill used to make produce the slates out of them, and they were all partners these four. And there was hundreds of contracts like that in the quarry, everybody was on their own for t thing, you know. Not one big contract but everybody on their own little contracts. Four four men in each contract, that's how they were. That's how they carried it out in the old days, in every quarry. But in this quarry now in when we were working for everybody was on the same bonus, you know they was they were all partners. Everybody in the erm in the er on the slate face and everybody in the mill were partners, everybody. Get the same wages not like the old days then, they were all individual partners then in four you know, in each partner work working. When you came to get your your contract with er te te te and you were all in the same c contract, was that because you got together as a union, or whether you got t together as the worker? Oh we were all together, and the union was behind us, you know the union was with us. Even in that early day? Oh yes, we had the union with us all the time, from the start you know. Everybody paid the union then, aye everybody was a union man there. But erm you know when we were on the strike if these lads wouldn't have gone back, there was couple of scabs went back into the quarry. It's them that made it worse for the others, if everybody had a stayed up together, and and stayed out, we we everybody had the same troubles, money trouble. Cos there was youngsters there who that stayed out with us, they had mortgages. And these scabs that went back, well they're the ones that let us down. St D d d do you think you you you would have succeeded? Oh yes, if everybody would have stayed out they would never had a scrap of slate made there, everybody would have stayed out and stayed out till the end, and not a scrap of slate would have been made there. But these scabs went back and made slates, and there was erm two officials there, they they'd never made slate when we were working up there. But when we went on strike they started making slate, so in a way they were scabs too, in these two officials, officials not touched a slate if they were er not making slate before, why should they make slate when we were on strike? D d did they know how to s how to make slate? Oh yeah, well they weren't good slaters as the, you know, but they did produce slate there, but they didn't they weren't good slaters the just that, well they make slate but. If they wouldn't have made a scrap of slate it would have a world of difference to this strike. Not a scrap of slate would have been made there, and he would have had to do something with us then. But these scabs went back and that's what really ruined this strike. Had you any had you any clue at all that they were going to go back? Well yes we had you could see on some of them, they didn't want much to turn them on, you know there was two or three there and they they took some others with them of course then didn't they, you know. If you get one or two that prepared to go the others w drop one by one back then wou that's how they went. But there was two or three there, when the strike started you couldn't trust them, they were scabs from the start. They weren't prepared to stay out. Where they men who had been quarry men? Well no they weren't really, they weren't they hadn't worked in the quarry like like us. They only did they were new to the quarry really. But they were on this bonus system you know, they were you know on the bonus but they weren't quarry men. They didn they ne hadn't been working in a quarry all that long. What sort of work had they erm been engaged in? Well driving and for erm you know he had plant hire, he'd been driving for him and that. That's what they had been doing before. They hadn't been working on the slate face, they hadn't worked any slate, but they were doing all right on the tables, you know on the sawing the slate up for the others. And then you had a couple of scabs, they were slaters, this is one or two of them, they went back. And so with the help of these, they just managed to do a bit of slate, but if them had not gone back, I thinks this this strike would have turned the other way. Stop 'em having any any slate at all, that's what we wanted to do. You stop 'em from any s scrap of slate e . C c can you gi give me some clue now a about w when the penny began to drop that trouble was going to g g going to start? Well no when we started when the strike started in the mill, I told then, you know y I don't know what you are going to do with us, I said, but the way you are carrying on now you are going to bring trouble into this quarry, cos these lads aren't going to give in to you at all that quick, what you're trying to do, make them work for thirty pound a week less, so you better think it over now, I said, before it gets any worse. But he wasn't prepared to do that, he just, he wasn't worried about us. He'd put his mind to it that he wouldn't, you know this he had it in mind that we were going to work for this thirty pound a week less, take it or leave it. He wasn't prepared to do anything else. Wasn't prepared to to let us go on now that same wages as before. How did i it come about that y you were placed in the situation that you were going to get thirty pounds a week less? Well he s all he made a little contract out himself, you know that's what he did, after he he'd put these new tables in the mill. He made a contract then out for us. And we worked on this contract for two month, to try it out for him but we were thirty pound a week less, and we had over two hundred slates a day more, on the on this contract. T we were thirty pound a week less. But nobody was prepared for it, to take it and that's how it was. What w was it about th the new tables that produced the situation? Well these tables he bought, well I hadn't seen tables like that before, he bought them in Italy somewhere. And they were sawing these slates in into blocks, you know sawing them square like into the size of the slate, they were quite handy. But the time involved to saw them was too much. The other table what we had before was better, was no much so much time involved, by the time you'd screw them round and turn 'em, to saw them into blocks there was a lot of time involved in it. Cos we're loosing a lot on 'em. But they were handy when you had them sawed, cos they were quicker for the slate, I said to er splitter they were quicker then to split 'em up. But we found we were sawing a lot of stuff up, was no good for the slate making, you know it it's got to be good for slate making, a lot of veins and lots of muck in 'em. But the tables were good then but erm too much time involved in them, in in sawing with in them. That's what I found out. W w where they w w once when they'd been installed or was it thought that it a mistake had been made in obviously a lot of cash had been spent on them but erm, was it considered a mis a waste of money or? Well it was a waste well I'll tell you what it was really, he saw a lot of waste on the other tables going on the tip you know, there was a lot of waste going over. Well these tables were doing away with a lot of waste. Getting more slates not so much waste out of them, cos these tables were sawing er them into blocks. There was no what we call, ends on on the slate, you know going over the tip, there was not so much waste with them there as the new tables. Why is it that this machine c c could trim it on all sides? Yeah we used to trim 'em with a hammer and chisel before Yeah. and there was a lot of waste, but these new tables did bring that, it was something for the company it was more than anything, you know cos we were on the bonus system. Slate we wanted to produce we want, you know if there a lot a bit of waste going over the tip, we weren't so much worried bout the waste, cos we was on the bonus we were making the slates and that. But he was worried more about the waste then then ours contract That's what he was cos there was a lot of waste on the old tables, and they make a bit more waste than on these new tables there. Ha ha ha ha how did it come about that you were on you were on one side very firmly and the employers were on the other side very firmly and sides had been had been drawn up? Well I don't think and nobody will turn this you know this he nobody would, he'd put his mind to something and there is nobody on earth that could turn him. Nobody on earth could turn him to do er to er change his mind. And behind him again there was his son-in-law, you know that only he's worse than . Then the one that runs the quarry to us, he's well he's worse only he was behind it in a way, he had he was the one with the brains, he was the one that new how to get the men to work for nothing. He was behind ee he had the brains, and was carrying it out for him, cos erm this erm I dunno if you know him eh, he runs this quarry to us up here. Oh he's terrible there, he even had them he had young girls working for him up there, and they found out they were paying he was paying them too little and then he got caught up with 'em, and erm what he done after he charged for taking them up there in the morning and charged 'em for taking them down in the evening with a Land Rover. So he had them both ways didn't he? He's a terrible man that one. Aye but he was behind the this cos they're all in the in the same boat you know, they're all families, family affair isn't it. But they say the old man didn't have anything to do with it, but I dunno, he could have had something to do with it, I dunno. I I dunno there Can you give some idea of how it came about that you in fact decided strike? When we started well we were in trouble in York When we at then we were going on the go slow system you know, we didn't produce much slate we were on the go work to rule. We let this carry that out for a month or so, and he was very annoyed about it. And then erm the lads in both they had decided they were gonna go on the go slow, but they were told if you go go on the on the go slow system, you're gonna go home, he said, I'm not prepared to carry on with that, he said, the manager there, that's brother that is. When a they were sent home from we went home from this quarry then, and the everybody went home so the the were forty of us in altogether. Everybody went home an, we were all on picket line after. Have you got any idea of w what they thought then of the fact that you were all acting, the three quarries, were acting as erm one body? Well we were all union members, and everybody wanted to be together, if you are if you are in the union well we had to stuck together an the the more we stayed together the stronger we are, to keep out if we can stay out. That's what we always thinking of ain't it. And it was last August, last August Bank Holiday this was started, just before the Bank Holiday weekend when i cos we were all on that gates, Bank Holiday weeks, stopping all the traffic going in there Yea That's how the know is, maybe if we'd a gone back then and,yo you know, if he, he offered us to go back then about September. Yeah to go back to work on this Thursday but we didn't go an all we should have gone then. And tried to get some settlement, but I don't believe it are giving us any settlement cos he wasn't prepared to do anything like that. And I know he had, you know he was stubborn, he wouldn't give in, nobody would he give in to nobody then. He was stupid, stubborn that's what he was. When you first erm when you first came out on strike. Did you have any idea how long you would be out Well everybody thought we'd be out for a week or so, but we were out for a month or er more when these scabs started going back. Well I knew then it was gonna finish off, you know. If more would have gone back then the strike would have come to an end quicker cos, I thought more would have gone back then, but all the lads in they stayed out and nobody went in to work. When the others went back to work, how did you manage to stop anyone else from going back to work? Well all th all these lads that have gone back, they were having a hell of a life in the town of course. If they went for a drink everybody was calling them scabs and if they went anywhere then, some some had their cars sprayed with paint and oh they had everything done, they were all against them. And the still now. The they were scabs then and the scabs now, and they'll always be scabs all their lives now. They will be called scabs wherever they go. Er even e even n now they are marked men yes? Yes they'd like if they were in South Wales, in South Wales you know if your grandfather was a scab, you'd be a scab wouldn't you, they carry it out in generations there. And I believe, in this it's brought a lot of thing in this town there small town like this. Cos these lads now that have gone back, and they were scabs then and they'll scabs they will be all their lives now. Everybody will be looking at them as scabs, wherever they go. No matter what they do they'll always be scabs. No, and as for and I dunno. I suppose they've shot better men than 'em Aye.. Yes Could be. I couldn't have shot any worse I don't think so I don't know what'll happen. Well I'm not worried cos I'm over sixty there, but these lads, I'm worried about these lads, that have mortgages and children to rear up they had lots of worries, and they still have. But these quarry owners they're not worried about them. They just worried about themselves Mm is it rather on the ye yo yo you said earlier on that er the old s s system of striking bargains was on a individual basis? Yes. on, on a team of or a contract of four men. So there's obviously a tradition of people of the quarry men and the quarry owners talking to each other. Yeah. Was the fact that there was no talking going on, completely surprising from the point of view of the tradition of bargaining? Yeah well in the old days, you know everybody was in the union. You couldn't work in the quarry, you couldn't go through the gate in the quarry without being a union man, in the old days there. And there was this system of four men in a bargain, nobody knew the other man's wages, we were all on different wage, everybody was on a different wage. And if you were well in with the staff and the owners of the quarry you'd have more bonus. They'd fix you up with er better bonus, but if you were a black leg they'd er be on less wagers. That's what is was it was a terrible system there, but that was the system, that was the system they carried through the quarries in all the years that are gone. It is contract it's a monthly contract you work for three weeks for one pound sixteen shillings and at the end of the month they count all the slates you've done during the month. And you get this little bonus at the end of the month, maybe a couple of quid on top of your one pound sixteen shillings. That's what they were doing, and then if you made too much slate this month, the following month they'd drop your bonus down, so as to see as to keep you on the same level, so you couldn't go any higher if you if you had good slate and worked your guts out. And the following month they drop you, that's how they used to do it Was there any sense that er you were in fact being put in the same position as your parents had been your your grandparents, had been in in in the sense not being able to get above a certain level by having your wages your bonus cut? Well they I I tell you this they they we'd worked for him for er good many years and there was no talk of any cuts in wages, we had this wages all through the through these years, and everybody was happy with it. Everybody were working on it and everybody was working a g a g a good days work and hard cos slate quarry work has always been hard anyway. But everybody was happy there, and er, till this came along, he's the one that wanted us to work for less. When he came along how could you see things had changed or how could you see in the process of changing? Well straight away the first thing he done was to put these new tables in, and that was his idea when he put these tables in to get more slate, and less wages. I dunno whether he he thought his father paid us too much, I dunno, but erm that's what he had in mind to start with, was drop the wages down thirty pound a week. For everybody. Was there any alteration in the style of management at all? No, not a thing jus we were all working, just on the same, everybody was working,fr real hard but erm. He had that in mind all the time to to cut the wages down, that's what they wanted to do. That's what he wanted to do to from the start, cut the wages down and make more slate, that's what he had in mind. He wasn't prepared to do anything else there no ar and he was he was to have these plant hire, you know these two, when when his old man used to work us us in the quarry, well this was working up there as well, he had lads working on the plant hire for him. He had about a dozen lorries on the road, and machines er working the roads there, all they were working for nothing for him, these lads and he'd come along and before Christmas he'd stop a couple of them, just before Christmas, he used to do that every year. Stop 'em, just before Christmas he used to stop 'em. And my son-in-law he was working with him, and when he had that accident, well it's ridiculous what he done that day. When he reversed that dumper over the tip. Eleven o'clock in the morning, and lost his leg. And he held the wages of the afternoon of him. No I'd r I thought that was really terrible there. Stopping a man's afternoon wages after he lost a leg. Er it was, and he was only paying him twenty two pound a week at the time. Was that considered a hard thing at the time? Very hard, very hard I told the lads I told 'em the union about it what he done that day. Must must be terrible man to do a thing like that eh. And you know is after an accident like that, well, we never, the old slate quarry company wouldn't do that, they'd pay the day off in one a serious accident like that. But that holding the afternoon off him after loosing a leg I think that was really terrible aye. When it became obvious that the strike wasn't going to last a fortnight or it wasn't going to last a month. How did you organize yourselves to stay together? Well we had a meeting every week, a a union meeting, every week. And we had the fantastic help in from South Wales, most thos terribly good er people were terribly good to us in organizing er different things. Many supported us and the present the people. Fantastic I never thought of anything like it, the money was coming in everywhere. They really did help us Aye. W w w w what sort of er p p people or organize or organizations where helping you then? Well union, you know the union in the coal mines and all different well er everywhere in the North Wales here to, postmen, well every union was helping us with them. Organizations and er money coming in everywhere and food parcels. They were helping everybody. I never thought of anything like that, I couldn't believe it. Really fantastic, and there's still money in the fund now, for after it. There was money coming in from overseas, Germany, Belgium, Holland, there wa everywhere helping us. Aye. W w w w were you as erm a large were you organized in any way in ord d er to c con t t t =tinue the strike le le length of time? Well we could a continued it for erm, well I dunno, but erm it was getting a bit out of hand with the picket line really, cos there was a lot of these youngsters who weren't prepared to do these picket line. You know they were coming there this week and they wouldn't come there for three or four weeks or something, thinking with this picket but it was very important to keep that gate, stop everybody from going in there. But there was a lo lots of these youngsters who wouldn't prepared to do this picket business. As they they got fed up with it I suppose I dunno er. But there was no point in carrying it on really you know it. If we'd a carried it on for say this time of the year now you with this erm Whitsun Holiday now, we'd have had to to do it seven days a week, cos you'd have to be there Saturday and Sunday to stop anything going in there . But they weren't prepared to do it were they. You know these youngsters they weren't prepared to stay on that gate. W w w was the the encouragement then for the picket from the older men? Well we c couldn't we had a lot of arguments about it you know in the union meetings about this picket line. But we couldn't make anybody do it, you know they'd say, anyway that we'll do it, there's there's next week they wouldn't catch you up some of them. So er er well we couldn't carry it out, cos the the ones who weren't prepared to do the picket wasn't erm going to do it, we'd have to do more of 'em to keep these youngsters on doing the picket, you know. Where they then a group of people who, to whom the burden of being on p p per picket falling more and more? Yes that's how that's how it was,yes all I was on that gate, I'd been on that gate myself dozens of times. On my own there I I wasn't worried about it er you know. But if one i man does the picket and the others don't, well it's gonna not gonna go show are they. That's what the company wanted us you know to break up on it. They wanted us, if everybody would have gone with me too the picket. That's what these slate quarry owners wanted us for us to fall back. The strike would have fall apart then. That's how it was It had fallen apart with er without. Everybody was standing, they was gonna go out. That's why all these collieries have a different in it. You know these self worth they're so terrible keen aren't they. When you began to make all sort of when c contacts began to be made between erm you and South Wales in terms of support Yeah. D did you get any sort of erm, apart from financial support and material support, did you get any moral support of how a strike should be con conducted? Oh yes they were they were telling us not to pack up there that keep the g gate going and you know they were, keep it going and they they'd er help us. For years to come because if they stay out they give us hundred percent help to carry on with it. But erm I dunno there's some of them weren't prepared to carry on with it, you know these youngsters, there was a lot of 'em they wouldn't, anyway everybody's not hundred percent you're not going to get anywhere with anything. You f emphasized the fact of erm s solidarity fr fr from want of a better word. Yeah. Erm was it in your opinion because the young men had a lot of financial pressures that they they weren't as s solid as the older men let's say or was it because they hadn't No they hadn't a no they they started alright on that picket but as time rolled on and they was getting erm fed up with it, you know they that's how it went as they were getting, oh I we won't go up there today, bugger it. And that's how it happened and you know some weren't prepared to s stay there on the gate an watch that nobody don't go in it er. When you were in, when you were discussing these things in the l lodge meeting erm d d d did the younger men sort of indicate how they felt towards the picket? Oh aye, know these youngsters today, they not er not the same as when we were young I don't think. They don't seem to worry about anything a lot of these youngsters today. You know if you're out on strike you're out on strike and must make it hundred percent, that's how it is. Cos if you do anything you doing you must do it, go at it the right way and stick to it, ain't it. But a lot of these youngsters er you know. There was a few in the lads they were just didn't want to do this picket line. And they were letting the burden on the others weren't they, to do it. And there was lots of the we came to an end and if we were going to carry on with this further we the everybody was getting a bit fed up with it. We were all getting fed up with it cos, having to stay on the gate five hours a day you know, three or four times a week. Was really poor there but I dunno if we'd er stayed there or and carried on with it. Was the er erm attention of the press, the television, the radio, the support of the local M. P., er m ministers in the town, university students, and all the other organizations, was that in in any way a help? Oh yes, it was a help the students give us a fantastic help you know, in financially and the the came on that gate a lots of times with us. They were on that gate with us very often, in the mornings and that. And er the M. P. on this he was up there with us, he was hundred percent too with us. Oh yes, we had fantastic support out of them aye fantastic. Everybody was p hundred percent, everybody. But it was the scabs er that well they put us down to start with, and then the was picket line started cracking up was the these lads not prepared to do it. That how it went out of hand in the end in it. And everybody was getting a bit bored with it cos as it dragged on this is s seven months when you know a long time to be I never thought it would have gone this as long as that when we started off with it. Where you erm aware at all that people were were having serious financial problems? There's quite a few there with had fantastic trouble with their finances you know. Cos the mortgages and that but there's a lot of them, and kids causing it, and Christmas was coming well you know we just, that's when they helped us at Christmas was really fantastic yes, true I never thought anything really out of this world how the how the people helped We got toys and everything for the kids' Christmas, everything you could think of. Nobody or kids were short of a thing, cos erm people from everywhere were sending things. And everybody had a t a twelve pound turkey each. Aye everything was gi really fantastic the people that helped the people that gave to the strike, out of this world I know the help they had was really fantastic. You e mentioned earlier on that people received er food parcels? Yes. Ha ha ha how was this organized? Well the erm the girls were doing all the the wives were doing all the food parcels every week. They were going up to the we call it. And they were organizing food parcels for every striker. And delivering them around on a Friday night and Saturday morning. And it's a really good parcel,th they thought of everything they had everything in the in the food parcel, very good. What sort of things would Oh. you you know sort of had erm eggs, butter, tea, everything you could you needed was in there, and tins of all different kind of soup and were apples, oranges, everything was in there, in the parcel. Really good parcel every week they were having. Would Erm, coming onto the other issues I wish to raise. I was delighted to see that th on the if you are now considering buying extra funds to see an encouragement residential home places There is however an important issue where you get shall we say a quality development in a rural area, and I mean a quality development, which would be probably has to be above the rates quoted here where talk a discussion with the owners because they may not be available to local people and that does concern me a bit in rural areas. So I think I'm asking for just a bit more , more talks and where there is a, a home or homes in a rural area that may be the only home in that area, so it is available to local people that Social Services come in and there in an understanding in planning authorities first and now the actual criteria we're working on because most local people will think that home is for local people. It may not be open to those people that need support. So that concerns me Chairman and I hope that issue can be addressed by the director in, in some way before the home is built. Erm, transport and equipment, Chairman, we've heard a lot about minibuses for schools, and coaches. I believe we should look at our, I think a hundred and ten vehicles, very carefully for safety checks because we do have tail lifts on them which closes the use, if there's a wheelchair as an emergency exit. There are issues which driver training and what we're doing in that because those vehicles are quite large, they are actually minibuses as such from the public's point of view, and they are carrying people that need the best possible care and attention in their transport. At least accident should occur so I'm asking for a review of those to see if we ha we are buying the right vehicle or not. It is an important issue. It's the same as saying should we have a diesel engine or a petrol engine because a diesel engine is less than inflammable fuel-wise than petrol and I think these issues should be raised. Chairman, I, I could go on but I, I think I'd like other people to have a say. I think those are the main points I wished to raise and Mrs next and then Mr . Mr Chairman, erm, I'll keep my comments slightly . Once again I must congratulate the officers for the excellent budget. They are extremely pleased with it. Erm, once again, the problems are being addressed in to a certain extent regarding residential homes and we're very pleased with that. Er, there's just one or two points that I, I'd like to ask. Erm, page twelve, er forty eight . Is this been raised before . Is this something new for the new budget provide more training for carers and are we going to advertise it to carers if we are?and the other point is transport and equipment. Erm, for day centre. Er, once again I may have missed something in 's report and perhaps last year's budget, a new member of staff is going to be . Erm, what about all the rest ? Well. well oh no no no health and safety We'll pick up all the questions at the end if that's okay. That's it, thank you. Thank you. Mr followed by a Mrs . Thank you Chairman. Erm, to some extent I, I, I what was saying. I'm sorry to see that although we've got a large increase in budget, which is of course always very welcome, that we haven't perhaps addressed improving the quality er as much as we might have done, although we've got a lot more home help hours that may be classed as an improvement, but er there are many other areas where we could perhaps encourage improvement in community care er with a bit of thought. But my main Chairman asking questions on what the er director has to say. Are these projectural figures which he showed us the cash flow chart over there looking like half a pyramid? Erm, how much flexibility do we have if there is a sudden epidemic, if flu virus for instance which can make a tremendous intake or, or people requiring care. Have we got sufficient er leeway there? Under the erm of page three where we have that I assume can be solely used for residential and nursing home care, won't be used for anything else take it back . Erm, you'll have to bear with me because I just marked the page as I went through. Normally you get so many people speaking you get time to organize yourself Oh yeah, the, the twenty pounds premium that they're proposing to be paid to the and area. Is that on existing beds or will it be for new beds only? Er, turn over the page again somewhere I believe. Oh yes, and the which we propose to be introduced hundred thousand. Have we any idea as to how much that may grow by over the next two or three years? Er going to be expended to certain groups of individuals or is it going to be open to anybody? Er because appreciate when you introduce something new that's costing a lot of money it can grow out of all proportion if you're not careful and it's much harder to take it away than it was to introduce in the first place. Er so one would like a little bit more clarification there perhaps. Er I think my other question falls on the . I don't know whether we're doing those things. Yes, everything including as well Right thank you Chairman. And there one personal explanation when I saw appendix A as opposed to the information on appendix five under page two I've got appendix five And then there's the annexation following that. Erm, under the banding system Mr Chairman, and as I say, it's purely er to clear it in my mind we've got residential points A and B and we have a manual system for nursing homes but the C one I'm not sure whether should be in nursing homes or residential homes. When it comes to appendix A it's got B and C under the residential homes sector as far as . I'm a bit confused I'll try and explain. Thank you. A Mrs followed by a Mrs . Thank you Mr Chairman. Er I don't know how Mr could actually say his first comment about quality and improvement. I assure one area a growth of three hundred and fifty , the vast majority of whom will be actually at the production line for home care assistance etcetera etcetera etcetera. Surely that's going to improve the quality of, of provisions? It's bound to improve the quantity but I would suggest it will also improve, improve quality and care that we're providing. Erm, Mr, Mr Chairman I, I'm not going to answer Mrs 's comments, although I don't know whether the jibe about the was aimed my way. I'm not against pamphlets if they're going to be lines in communication. I've not been against lines of communication, I've been against excessive expenditure on such. Erm but erm sitting in a traffic jam this morning I was very concerned to learn that taking effect from tomorrow the government is changing the grant for adaptation for severely handicapped people. The ceiling was or today is fifty percent, tomorrow it will be er fifty thousand pounds, tomorrow it will be twenty thousand pounds and erm I'm very much tying this in with para four four eight on page ten. I wonder if the, the director plans to talk about the cri criteria we will work towards with the independent erm living fund and I wonder if we could possibly accommodate something within the criteria because I think the number of people involved needing adaptation to their home over about five thousand is fairly small but for those people it will make the difference between them being able to remain in their own home or within the community care package, a vast sum of money being needed to be spent on them to accommodate them within residential accommodation. So I am very concerned about this erm latest piece of legislation. Thank you. Thank you. Mrs followed by Mrs . Yes, you will all know my interest in mental health erm personally because of my son and I am very pleased that under four point five two erm that the extra workers are going in t for support. Er that is very welcome, and also that there will be help at the weekends because as I've often reported before, that's often when things escalate at weekends for some unknown reason. Erm, four point five four. I would like to know erm the two or three buildings I er it may be difficult at this time but how many residents will be in each building? Because these will be resent as we know that have individual needs in individual ways and they often rub off one against the other if they live in closeness as we all do. I was once in a ward with nine other people for a year and I know how, except when passed away, I know how that can really get on one another 's nerves and erm the individual needs that they will have I know will be erm so difficult if there are too many living in very closeness. Sometimes it can be close harmony but then often it's not, unfortunately. And is an allergy doctor that ever visits these places, because I don't know about that. I would like to have information on that because often allergies erm are at the root of a lot of the problems. And regarding the rent of the centre the, the people who have gone home. Are they coming onto your support workers calling on the families at this time to help them erm because this will be the time when the families will need help and also naturally the residents who are normally at the centre, having got used to the centre, as we know, there could be difficulties there and I'd like to have the please. Thank you. Mrs followed by Mr . Thank you Mr Chairman. I think that following on from what Mrs was saying that erm certainly I could do with an expert allergist here because I am suffering with an intensive allergic reaction to what Mr said earlier but I do realize that that was his way. Erm I've apologized to you, and particularly to the people who write the dictionary that I don't actually know the opposite of deja vu but it's what I'm suffering from. I'm hearing things now that I have not heard in fifteen years that I've been on this County Council and I would suggest erm to Mr that when he's talking about things that this County Council ought to print, and I think the one suggestion he came up with is very sensible, he could perhaps follow up with a catalogue of those things which he considers need doing that after a hundred years have not been done. Thank you Mrs . Very succinct. Er, caught me on the hop. Sorry Mr followed by Mr . Thank you Chairman. Erm, it is particularly impressive to see so many plus signs on the budget, particularly and I think there's to be I assume this is a standard thing Er Right Er one other comment from the er Association for the Disabled. They were particularly impressed with the additional two and a half million for home care with the resources to go with it, together with the additional and also of course the eight hundred thousand for the er scheme. Erm, those were the comments I would like to make. One question please er relevant to the workshop that took place er at Hospital. I thought that was a particularly er constructive day session, a lot of ideas came from it and I am sure that there will be a number of actions to be warranted from it. Some of those actions may require resources. I would just like to whether in principle the resources are irrespective of. Thank you. Mr followed by Mr . Thank you very much. At the last meeting of the committee I did in fact congratulate the director and his staff for the way in which community care had been implemented current year and I'd certainly like to congratulate him on the way he's presented er proposals for next year. Erm, I, I think the evidence is both in the current year that in care in the community is working very successfully. Erm at previous County Council and the previous committee, together with the officers, planned extremely thoroughly and er the funding that was provided for this year both internally within the County Council and externally from the government was sufficient to provide the sorts of levels of service that we, we anticipate. I think that when we look at, I mean there's no doubt that we have got significant and welcome, and let's not be , welcome improvements of service for this year. Er but for as long as all of us sit here we will always be looking for further improvements. I mean, we don't stand still at this because what will seem a very good service this year will look like a lousy service in five years' time so let's not pretend the fact that we haven't achieved everything we've achieved this year in some previous years means that we haven't made any improvements because I think one of the key areas where in fact er improvements have been made in previous years, and to a certain extent, one could say reading this I was worried by an apparent admission of very much reference or very much expenditure on them in the provision of day centres, because I think that a key element in care in the community and the fact that today so successfully this year has been the fact that a major number of th and I don't think there's any disagreement over this, a number of day centres, very efficient and very effective day centres, were developed, funded, provided mainly in the conurbation areas and I think Mr is right to highlight the fact that, as so often happens in these instances, it's people who live in conurbations who get the best deal because it's, it's more economical, it's easier to provide a centre for a large number of people than it is for a small number of people. And I suppose he that's an area where one is worried about quantity and quality because it's in a way you can always provide more quantity I imagine at a lesser cost by going into a conurbation than you can by going into rural areas. One of the things that does, I'm not being Chairman, just asking questions, but one of the things that slightly concerns me because I know that in his document the director has put about providing day care type facilities in rural areas and I remember at our last meeting, the last meeting at one, we discussed specifically and area, erm it does, does worry me a little whether the absence of any capital expenditure on our part means that we may be providing day care facilities in some areas but it'll be of a very much lower quality or a lesser quality than we may be providing anywhere else in the areas like and and . I think it's very important that we don't neglect er people who live in rural areas and that we do in fact ensure that they get the same sort of provision erm that they do elsewhere. So you know just picking up Mr 's point, I h we mustn't confuse, I mean I agree that quantity is one of the measures of quality but it's not the only one. You, you can put more resources into things and not necessarily provide something better so I think that one has to try and do the two together. Erm s that's my general s there's no doubt that there are a great deal of activities there as always of course when one is spending a lot of new money quite rapidly, one has to monitor it very carefully to make sure that it's being effectively spent, and I'm sure the director and this committee will continue to do that. Can I just ask two questions then at the end? Erm quite rightly the director said that predictions in terms of residential admissions and nursing home admissions would be easier to make this year than last year and I accept it was very difficult then year but I'd just like to know how close the actual outcome is likely to be to the original prediction, really for information, not because I think you could have got it any closer than did but it would be just interesting to know what the s the gap was. Now the other question I was just going to ask was on appendix er erm it's oh yes here we are appendix five bottom of page two and it's talking about the condition of people on the higher rates to residential homes in the area. One of the things about when you are old and move to a residential home I think one of the important things is that you want to go and live close to your loved ones, if you have any, and it does just worry me that if you happen to be a person who is resident in and your loved ones live in , under these terms if you went to a residential home in you wouldn't qualify for the higher rate and that seems to me to be wrong. It seems to me that it ought to be our policy that we ought to try and locate people who go into these sorts of residencies as close to the people who will be concerned for their welfare as possible erm and that therefore there would be a strong case for making that sort of exception in those cases. Thank you. Mr followed by Miss . Thank you Chairman. Chairman, I welcomed this paper altogether. There are so many things in it that are good. There are one or two things that do bother me. I am very pleased for instance that the unit is to be opened at and I would like to know if there are any other places in mind for disabled problems. As far as mental health is concerned, Mr surely must be living in another age. Terrific strides have been made in mental health in this county erm lots of it under voluntary and it is very much to be commended. I am very pleased to see what is going on in the coming year. Erm, the, just, incidentally just to show I read the papers Chairman erm on page ten it is laying not laying. Thank you. Erm I do think that you've made the point that the additional staff we do have three hundred and forty three, three hundred and fourteen, is it three forty three?too high. Yes Anyway, Three six three, three six three. Erm and I do think that the press should be notified of what's going on in this for this year. It's a very considerable stride forward altogether and you know I highly commend it. Thank you very much. Thank you Mr . Erm Oh incidentally, sorry Chairman,. Erm are we continuing trading or because I, I fear that in, in in particular and with due respect to the Chairman I think the hospital discharges at the moment are leaving a little bit to be desired. Thank you. Nothing to do with me. I don't take that personally. Erm Mr followed by Mrs . Thank you Chairman. Erm I was interested to note the reference to day care in the area. Erm it's always difficult in rural areas because the distribution of population and the comparatively small numbers involved. I know the mental health on th on the health service side are facing the same problems and I was wondering to what extent the director had been talking to the District Health Authority on, on those lines. The other thing I was interested in was the increase of ele of occupational therapists and I just wondered what the realistic expectation was of being able to recruit them because as far as I know they are a scarce resource er and not easy to find. And the last thing was, I'm not at all clear what was meant by the principal voluntary organized a organization for the mentally ill and I just wondered what was, what was his view in that respect. Thank you. Thank you Mr . Mrs followed finally by Mr . Thank you Mr Chairman. Erm, yes I think it's an excellent budget, very pleased with it. There's just one thing, page eleven. I would like a little more detail on the branch for voluntary organizations. I know there's a new committee that deals with this but could we have a bit more detail about the amounts and who they go to. It would be quite a useful thing to know I think. Thank you. Mr . Chairman, just a very quick point erm referring to four point four two residential care noting that the . The County Council's own homes has improved during the past year. I noticed, during a recent visit to , that they were offering a twenty five percent below capacity. I wonder if this is characteristic of all our homes and whether this is likely to continue, and whether any thought has perhaps been given to using this surplus accommodation for day care facilities? Thank you. Right I'm gonna ask the director, who I think is going to pick up most if not all of your points, there may be the odd point he'll pass sideways in my direction. Well thank you very much Chairman and I'd like to thank members for their, for their comments and the general welcome for the budget. Erm first of all to deal perhaps with capital spending. Erm, there is in fact a, which a number of members have referred to, there is in fact a hundred and fifty thousand being spent this year on day care capital as a result of the two and a half million package which members agreed in October and that has obviously gone to voluntary organizations for them to spend. We are obviously aware of the need for capital expenditure but fortunately we have got through the big capital programme in advance before the, the current which the treasurer may wish to comment on of the county's overall capital programme, of which er of course there are, there is competition from other committees. Er will not be in that category because it will be totally funded by the Department of Health ah as and when it comes along. Erm, there will be thoughts but er we are certainly er sort of the major programme that we have had. I think it is the revenue side that is important. To stay in the day s centres for a moment. Er we, this budget actually includes about three quarters of a million increase in d in expenditure on day care. Erm on the adult side. It's split up in various places including the funding of and a full year and the other providers which are so there's a total of three quarters of a million there. And, perhaps going back a bit and looking at the history of the last ten years, it is important to realize that we have developed small centres as well as large ones. The county's own er developments have included ,,,,, and and of course particularly in other areas especially within we've worked with the existing voluntary organizations in developing their centres rather than necessarily developed our own, and I think that mixed pattern has been very helpful. I mean, going back to nineteen eighty three for instance, in the whole of er area there was no adult day care at all and in at that time there was only the Road day centre for the learning disabled which, with the best will in the world, is not the jewel in our crown. Erm the er, erm, so I mean, we really have made major strides and I think if members look at the location maps I mean you can see just how we how widely spread the day centres now are. That is no for complacency and there will obviously be towns where these developed and members . Another thing which came across in your comments from more than one member was the question of quality. Ah, absolutely crucial. There is no point in just having money, spending it and having no regard to where it goes. But I think we've got to remember that the, the people who really determine the quality of the users of our services, the clients, it's they who say yes, this is what I want, this is th this is what I'm after and that is why I hope that we will be able to target on things that come out of the consultation progress s process, things like evening and weekend working that people want and, rather than simply churning out more nine to five Monday to Friday day care, what people want is it targeted to their needs where they are and it's that sort of quality that I think is so important. We also of course have got sophisticated, I hope, complaint systems now and those are another important way and we're always trying to improve our quality control and quality assurance mechanisms. The, as far as publicity is concerned, I think once the scheme starts to, to really move I think we will see a very significant ah availability of publicity on a wide scale of people. Er but I do take the point that er Mr made. The longer serving members of the committee will remember a series of booklets on mental health, mental handicap and physical handicap across the county and we're looking at that in the context of the major changes now and seeing whether those should be repeated. They were produced in conjunction with the health service, they ran to about sixty seventy pages each and I think we were widely welcomed. They are still very relevant that they are still very relevant Chairman and could very well be used again. I think they need updating and we have started to look at . Thank you. Erm er cos we would need a glossy . Erm on the mental health strategy erm yes we do need to sign up for that. I think the committee has already indicated its views but I don't think that is its views where they may not have entirely coincided with a particular District Health Authority are really part of a dialogue towards consensus rather than any fundamental difference put it that way. Er, we have some points that we want taken on board such as the relevance of CPMs in the primary care team each team and that sort of thing but I don't think they are fundamental differences, they are, as I say, dialogues towards consensus. Erm, the homes in the rural areas and fees. And perhaps I can tie that in with the, the comment from Mr about people from having loved ones in I am bound to say that this hasn't been a major feature of our er er in fact that would be catered for by other provisions because erm under the directive on choice, any individual has a right to er say that they would like to go to a particular home. We w er we would, we would only need to pay for them at the rate where they lived. In other words, they would have to meet the difference. Unless there were special factors involved and although I cannot recall a situation where we've paid for a person to go into that's for members to discuss, not me, but we have certainly paid an enhanced rate where somebody wanted to go to to live near their daughter who was in and we felt that was a legitimate reason for paying a higher rate and, and, and we did do so, so there are other types of flexibility. What this is intended to do is to put structural change into it, to say to home owners, if you come to the area, particularly those built-up areas where there is such a shortage of homes, you can be sure that you will get higher rates and to answer another question, we are,a that would be applying to existing people as well as to er otherwise in the budget allowance for that. The erm safety on the transport yes I mean I am very happy to say that we will ask the, the staff to look at that and perhaps I can just clarify the meaning of that paragraph ah in four point eight when it says a m a new member of staff it means a new member of staff will be responsible for health and safety not just one person on his own. Erm the er users and carers. That would we feel is certainly in a coordinating way and if somebody for instance er say you've got a husband and wife living together, one of them suddenly becomes handicapped in a particular way, what we are planning to do is trying to develop programmes which will enable the carer to have to go on training at the County Council's expense to enable them to look after somebody in their own homes and it's a type of thing we want to develop. I'm not saying we have done this in an ad hoc way up to now but what we want is to try and develop a programme for this and I think that should be a very useful and, and frankly I would expect it to grow er over the years as the need develops. I think peop it's clear that that could be a very useful part of er of there being care in people's homes. Erm the on the po projections and the flexibility for the flu virus. Erm, yes, we have made a, a projection but the treasurer and I and er Mr may wish to comment through you Chairman. Er we ha we are aware that there is a need for flexibility. We will know by the first of April this year rather more than we know at the moment but you're right it can go up and down, but there are lots of budgets in Social Services which are subject to this and it's part of our job to try and manage that during the course of the year. To take child care for instance, we can suddenly get two or three ah admissions to secure units at a cost of two thousand pounds a week and that's er you know a hundred thousand a year per child so we can really there are other votes that can, can absorb that sort of money. Did you? Well yes, yes Mr Chairman. Just to say that we do monitor the numbers going into, to residential care very very closely so we would we would be able to tell sort of reasonably early in the year if things were going erm way of our projections of our predictions and er we would obviously be coming back to you to see to er to change our budgets erm if, if that proved necessary. My fear Mr Chairman was that the very we've been talking about can be weeks or months Yes, yes I mean it could be nothing may happen at all may descend on us and everybody's and we've run out of money. You'd, you'd expect me erm er with my finger on that pulse to have made that point to the directors, may be help me make it several times during our sort of discussions about er both this year's budget and next year's projections. Erm er the other things we're doing which hasn't mentioned is that we're doing an actuarial assessment of the probable erm let's min not mince our words, death rate, sort of the drop out rate if you like of, of placements because takes people who are in there out at any period during the year or the future and we need to have some sort of projection for that as well. So we're, we're looking at er er both input and the output, if I can put it so crudely, in terms of er occupancy of er we look at the demographic trend and the correlation We certainly do. Erm, what we have done is is because what is important is to look at that particular and try and get as good an estimate as we can because, let's face it, if we over-budget then in fact we're wasting money which could otherwise be really targeted on community resources. Erm, as far as the growth of the independent living fund is concerned. If the er nas we know what the national figure of growth is for next year. If that is repeated in we would expect about five hundred thousand pounds to be included in next year's, that's the ninety five six, special transitional grant in respect of erm er the independent living fund so that's quite a significant increase next which will be scheduled for the year after the budget we are now considering. Erm, on annex A, Mr is quite right and there is a mistake there. Erm the, on appendix five and annexe A is of course is of course an annexe to it and I apologise for this. On page two er bands that should th the heading, nursing home, should come after band C and not before it. The annexe is right, the erm individual appendix is not. I'm sorry for that mistake. Well spotted. I'm grateful to Mr for . Perhaps he may have an interest in this matter. Erm, reference was made to the erm changes in the s so- called er living grants. Er the situation is that what has happened is that government has lowered the mandatory ceiling from fifty thousand to twenty thousand. District councils still have discretion to make grants in excess of twenty thousand pounds and er as Mr there can be th there are a limited number of those in the course of the year. We have no indication yet that any district council is thinking of reducing the amounts it pays merely because the mandatory limit has lowered from fifty to twenty. Erm, we are aware of a number of those take place and if necessary we'll have to enter into discussions with the district councils er about and there is an element of give and take there. There's still the statutory position with the occupational therapist of this department makes a recommendation to the er on the f on the proposals submitted to us by the district council but it's purely a, a lowering of the mandatory limit, the discretionary limit remains the same and it remains to see how that will work in practice. The erm Mrs referred to the buildings for the mental health. Erm I think we probably envisage those as no bigger than six at the outside people in any one house, domestic scale housing is what is envisaged there. And the question of allergy doctors I must confess is outside my remit. Er but perhaps I could talk about the Centre, which is not. I meant the Health Centre. Yes, I, I thought that. I was going to say, the Centre is still operating although it may be reduced in size. To the people from the people who've gone home ob we hope this'll only be for a few days and some have gone er to other homes just for the time being. We felt although fi the County Fire Officer was saying this morning that perhaps the main crisis has peaked during, during the last twenty four hours. We felt better be safe than sorry. Erm and also to prevent the handicapped people and perhaps for the very elderly it can be a little bit of an adventure. So we've er we felt that was we only had to cope with if the worst came to the worst. Erm but we will try and reverse that and er erm one particular parent from House er who is a member of this council has er certainly been following the events with some interest. Erm the er Mr referred to the growth as being a standard for the future. Well er that's outside my hands but I think we should say that there should be significant growth next year as the new er as the third tranche of the community care special transitional comes in but of course there are more responsibilities. I mean, let's not beat about the bush here. We are taking responsibility for people who we were not taking responsibility for before so it isn't sort of entirely buckshee money which we distribute, there are real responsibilities here. Erm, the er question of the forecast for this year on residential work. What we did was we based our forecast, which I think Mr raised that point, we based our forecast on the admissions that we did at the Department of Social Security and I'm glad to say that we have been significantly under that level and partly I think because er we've had people who have genuinely diverted into home care and who've been able to which is why we've put the pressure on home care and on the occupational therapy services and partly because erm the, there were some inappropriate admissions I must say that. Erm, very few Is significantly low ten percent? Oh yes even though it would be more than that, it would be nearer twenty five. Erm Which is isn't surprising in the first year. I don't think anybody will be much surprised. It could have gone either way in a sense. I'm glad it's th gone this way and not the other way. I think the committee as a whole wanted to be cautious because as has been said earlier our main prime responsibility must be to those who need rest home or nursing home care and have nobody else to fund them. That's our bottom line. Erm, glad Mr spotted the tarmac laying error. Sorry about that. Erm we certainly will continue assessment training and er develop that as far as we can. Erm as far as the, the numbers of staffing are concerned, I would repeat what the er treasurer has already said and that is we do not know the conditions attached to these grants yet, if any. They were due out on December the second and as members will know I'm involved in those discussions on behalf of the . There is still no indication, as of last Friday, er meeting that the government has anything to say and there's a further meeting er in London tomorrow which I'm going to. Erm, we are indeed talking to Health Authority about the matters that were mentioned but can I come on to occupational therapists because I'm very glad to say that erm we are able to recruit occupational therapists in this county. Erm we set up I think a very successful service and if I could just mention a sad note here,me some members will know who was the county occupational therapy coordinator largely designed the service here and I'm very sorry to say that er she died the other day but her service is very much a tribute to her and we do in fact have a large number of people who will want to come and work for us as OTs because it is a good service and I'm sure that you will agree with that. Could I have a point of information there Chairman? Could I ask, it seems to me that erm in Hospital anyway, that erm no referral come we, we get nobody from unless they are referred by the ward sister. Is that the case? to us come from hospital discharge. Certainly the hospital discharge and certainly it is the case that th normally they come through the ward sister. Indeed, the government is about to bring in new regulations which will mean that the hospitals must nominate a named person for each patient who is responsible for liaising with us on discharge. And that will be welcome. I mean in some cases be left with the ward sister and I think in general that's who they will nominate. The principle is that the, the decision to discharge somebody is based on a clinical decision presses the button to start the process and but I mean that's, that's how it works. Thank you. Erm, the principal voluntary organization for the mentally ill. What we had in mind there is a parallel organization to the ones that already exist for other client groups. We have the Association for the Disabled for the blind, we have Age Concern but there isn't a for the mentally or for mental health or for whatever it might be called, and these groups are very useful in providing a focal point for liaison between statutory organizations, including the health service, and the users and carers, and providing points of lobbying concern, points on which we can comment and that that increasingly is the way we're working in the community care consultation process. Mr referred earlier to the views of the Association for the Disabled on proposals and that is very very important and I think increasingly it will be the committee's concern to if you like have very s acute listening ears to, to what is needed and what is, what is wanted in the community and organizations like this can be very important in not just lobbying in the crude sense but providing a real medium of communication and I think that that would be helpful. Mrs referred to the schedule of grants for voluntary organizations. Er last years's were reported er under the er Chairman's action procedure to the committee and I'm sure the county secretary can assist you with a copy of a schedule which was in fact a statutory background paper. Here's that piece of er Thank you There'll be more to come Yes, thank you Next year's will of course be going through the new procedure Chairman I think those were the main, main points that were mentioned. Thank you very much for that very comprehensive answering of all the queries and comments that were made and thank you to members for Oh no, there was one other point. Mr mentioned the er . The situation there is that the, there're, if you have double rooms as doubles then there would be, we do have a relatively low occupancy but the committee had decided to move towards double rooms being used as single occupancy only and on the, I've got the latest figures for the first of January in front of me just by ch really just by chance that is taking into account the occupancy will be eighty seven percent Well, I think we've had a wide-ranging debate and I'm very grateful to all members for er their input in into the debate. Erm there are just a couple of points that the director hasn't touched on erm because they're probably outside his direct remit. The one I think mentioned was the me the question of mental health capital funding for day centres. Erm, it does fall into the area of discussion with the responsibility to provide the er the capital funding for those buildings and I think that's a view I would certainly take at this time er with regard to the other health authorities in but it's erm it's er primarily a health r health erm authority responsibility. We are obviously under joint financing prepared to erm er progress a lot of the, our side of the staffing of it. The other area I wanted to comment on erm is related to that actually. other remark, which I can't let go unchallenged, that ninety percent of mental health work in the m community is looking after the worried well. I, I don't know where he gets that figure from. It's an outrageous claim erm I don't think it's substantiated by any research whatsoever. I've heard it repeated on the radio recently and even the Secretary of State didn't go so far as to use the ninety percent figure but was talking about the seriously mentally ill and the not so seriously mentally ill. The problem in terms purely of resourcing is if, if one doesn't look after the not so seriously mentally ill they very rapidly c become the very seriously mentally ill with considerable financial resourcing problems and also enormous manpower problems because they do then tend to need twenty four hour close supervision nursing and not care in the community which can be done on a part-time basis and the implications of that are frightening. There's a national debate going on t we're not gonna crack it here this afternoon and I don't want to get in there but I just wanted to put the other side of the er of the coin to that. And the final point I wanted to make, although yes, we do welcome the special transitional grant second tranche of ten point eight million pounds, and it would be churlish not to, it is nevertheless a reduction on what the share of it was last year erm s of the national total so there is actually a reduction in the share that is getting this year, and alongside that, and of course hence the need for the recommendation in the budget, is that we've actually lost very specifically one point eight five six million in the rollover grant from last year's erm S T D tranche which we are specifically asking and very grateful to policy and resources for, hopefully, erm we're asking and we're hopeful they will underpin it and the Chairman is here and er er has nodded in that direction I think it's fair to say. Em, but that's the reason is that there's, there's a shortfall of the government funding of one point eight five six on that rollover funding which we think it would be unfair to ask this committee to find out of you know cuts in other areas within our, within our budget and that's the reason for the recommendation. So can I therefore, having had a very full debate, put the recommendations on page thirteen to the committee, including the erm relatively small capital programme set out in appendix one and ask you to approve recommendations A to F. Is that agreed? Agreed Thank you. I regret to say that I forgot to give the Vice Chairman's apologies for non-attendance. I spoke to her last night. She's confined to bed with her second attack of flu in, since er since December, so that's why she's not here today. My apologies for not saying so at the beginning. Thank you all for attending, oh we do have to formally, formally move into part two and that's for one purpose only, and that's to approve the minutes of the last meeting Can I, can I just draw attention to an error under paragraph one nine two, the date at the beginning of the second line should be first December, sorry first October, nineteen ninety three, not tenth of December. Subject to that, can I have your agreement to er sign part two minutes as correct? Thank you. I declare the meeting closed. Right Mr Gordon I think the room is now as full as it can get so we'll kick off today's proceedings er could you start by introducing your team for the record. Yes of course it will be a pleasure. I'm Jack Gordon, I'm Director General of aircraft one with the Ministry of Defence. I'm the Project Manager for the United Kingdom er for the Eurofighter two thousand project at the international level I also chair the N E F M O board of directors. On my left is Mr William Perry who's the Director of Finance and Secretariat, air one in the procurement executive. On my right is Mr er Nick Evans who's the Head of Resources and Programmes Air and on my extreme right Group Captain Granville White who's Deputy Director, Operational Requirements air four. Right thank you very much Mr Gordon. Er can I just say at the outset that some of the material we'll be covering this morning may well be classified. Yes. Er when you feel that you can't answer our questions in open session, if you could indicate that then we will go into closed session at the end of the morning and cover that ground in that way. Understood. Looking first of all then at the operational performance of the aircraft, you have told us already in written answers that in the light of the changed security situation you have relaxed the Eurofighter requirement. Can you tell us an indication of how much the changes reduce operational capability in percentage terms? Erm well perhaps before I answer that question Mr Chairman, I could just briefly skim across the programme and bring you up to date as to where we are and then we'll go directly on to that point. Very briefly would . Yes, very brief . Er well the committee will recall that shortly after it published its report in Spring ninety two, the new German Minister of Defence questioned whether the project was still required at that degree of sophistication. For our part we had no doubt about the continuing need for an aircraft of Eurofighter two thousand's broad capabilities. This view was subsequently confirmed by a thorough review of the operation requirement which was carried out under the direction of the four chiefs of defence staff. The review of the requirement and the options for meeting it er culminated in an agreement between the four ministers of defence in December ninety two to re-orientate er the project. We provided a note to the committee in January ninety three about this. Well, re-orientation of the project has involved a line by line review of the European staff requirement, the E S R D to see whether it might be relaxed in the light of the changed international security situation. It also involves rescheduling the whole programme so that decisions on commitments to production can be deferred until nineteen ninety five, with first deliveries to United Kingdom and Italy occurring in the year two thousand and to er Spain and Germany in two thousand and two. Work by the staffs in the four ministries of defence and by the NATO agency N A F M A to re-orientate the project in line with the minister's directions is now at an advance stage. The revised European staff requirement document has been signed now by the four chiefs of air staff, this was done last month. A revised schedule for the development programme has now been agreed with industry and this will be taken into the contract. The four governments are also resolved to cap their financial liabilities for this programme. So negotiations are in progress on revised prices for the development phase. These have taken somewhat longer than we anticipated but we are at last making good progress towards agreeing prices for the Eurojet contract and we are expecting to receive more acceptable price quotations from Eurofighter very shortly for their part of the work. The changes to the programme also require a new memorandum understanding with our partners. The draft for this is almost complete but it can't be finalised until the costs of the revised programme have been agreed for each of the participating nations. All being well this new M O U will be ready for submission to ministers by the middle of this year. Turning now to the development work itself in general, the development work is going well. There have been no fundamental technical problems. There has been a very considerable delay to the first flight but this is now scheduled for April this year. The delay has been due mainly to the need to be absolutely certain about the integrity of the flight control system software before the aircraft takes to the air. While the delay to the start of the flying programme has been much longer than anyone would wish, much more progress has been made in the ground and rig testing than at the comparable stage of any previous project I have been associated with and we are very satisfied indeed with the results that have been obtained so far. There is assessment in the wind tunnels, for example, is complete and the results are good. The structural test programme is also making extremely good progress and the results from the engine test programme are ex very encouraging indeed. The performance of the engine, on the bench, already meets its full specification for thrust and fuel efficiency and even it exceeds it slightly in some respects. So overall we remain very confident that the Eurofighter two thousand will meet the full operational requirement. So now turning to the point which er I think you asked us to address. Can we quantify, or explain, the areas in which we have made some relaxation and I'll ask Group Captain Granville White to answer that. Well the specific question I asked is whether you've quantified in percentage terms erm perhaps Group Captain you could give us an indication of how it has affected it? Yes certainly, yes. The point about er relaxations and what impact it would have on its combat capability. I think the important point I'd like to make at the outset is that when the review of the requirement was carried out it was carried out both nationally and on a four nation basis, the ministers, once that was complete, the ministers decided that and stated publicly in December ninety two, that we will continue with the existing airframe and engine combination and that each nation er based on a family of aircraft concept could decide from a menu which equipments it would fit according to their individual requirements and their budget and we looked individually at each of the items to see what impact it would have on the operational capability if we were to remove them and what erm was decided in the end and the requirement reflects this, was signed last month by the Chief Surveyor's staff, is that some nations have decided to remove certain items of equipment but for the U K we felt that it was necessary to keep all the major items and therefore as far as the U K is erm impact on the operational requirement is concerned, there is no significant alteration in its operational capability and therefore in overall percentage terms there is no decrease in the capability at all. Now individual nations who've decided to do without a particular item of equipment, clearly that will be developed into the aircraft and therefore they have the option to if they wish to d decide later on to fit it in. Thank you. I'll I think at least four particular areas where the United Kingdom has decided not to, as it were, take the full specification. Er, can we have a look at those or or at least, has accepted specific changes to those specifications. Can we have a look at those four and if you could, I'd be grateful if you can tell me what change in the security situation, as envisaged by the government, has led to our acceptance of those changes. Now the first one, which was mentioned by the minister in the R A F debate, er is the reduced requirement to operate on damaged runways. What change of perception in the security situation has led to our accepting that diminution of capability. Yes the there are two aspects really to that, one is the length of runway operating er and the other is the surface, erm, if I could take the first one. When the requirement was originally written erm and agreed in nineteen eighty seven all of the nations decided that erm we required a short take off and landing capability and that was based on the sort of the then cold war situation where the prospects of runways and airfields being very severely damaged in a sort of central European type of scenario, and therefore the possibility that there might be only very small operating strips available from those runways and that was the basis for the particular length that was decided at the time. Because of the changed security situation and that type of er conflict not being envisaged in the same way now, what we felt was important was to be able to operate er apart from main operating bases, but also from sort of general purpose erm strips, flying clubs and those type of smaller airfields and therefore rather than looking at the damaged runway situation, we looked at the smaller strips and took a length that we could sensibly operate from erm and took that as the yardstick but clearly notwithstanding that, there is the prospect of damaged runways and therefore the slight relaxation would also apply to damaged runways but perhaps damaged to a lesser extent. I think perhaps if I just add a point to that er although we have as four nations agreed on the revised requirement there, I believe it's true to say that development has progressed to such an extent that probably we will have the original requirement in practice, even though we've no longer specified it. That's very encouraging. For no extra charge. Can we then look at the reduced engine thrust erm this presumably would have a significant impact on combat performance, er why is there any change in the security situation that would warrant such a a relaxation? Yes the particular item that was deleted was known as the combat override facility which erm was really a trade off erm to provide extra thrust against the reduced life of the engine and clearly if one operates at the top end of the engine spectrum in er hotter conditions and higher er R P M then clearly the life of the engine will be reduced. Now we had originally had this extra facility available er so that we could trade off life against the extra thrust in an emergency but there was clearly the possibility erm that that might be used er when it really wasn't necessary and we would end up with extra costs, extra life cycle costs, shorter engine life and it was felt on balance that with a reduced threat overall that it was sensible to take out that facility and to accept a longer engine life, but not, there's no reduction in the total normal thrust but its merely its override combat facility. I it doesn't speak very highly if I may say so Group Captain, for R A F discipline if what you're telling me and telling the committee that you think that pilots should be using this facility, would be using this facility when they're ordered not to. No I wasn't suggesting that Mr Chairman. Well why would it be used in circumstances when it was not needed otherwise? I was only thinking really of erm particularly extreme situations erm and I would expect it to be used for example in normal training or anything like that and er certainly all the studies show that the normal thrust, full thrust that was available was sufficient to meet the threat and this extra capability really was a a sort of an extra that was added in early on and really wasn't felt on any of the combat modelling to be necessary. I think I would actually like to pursue that point Group Captain but I I think I'd rather pursue it in in the closed session than an open session. Now can we move on to the reduced quantities of role equipment. Can you tell us what role equipment items have been deleted. Yes, it was not so much a deletion as er a reduction in the numbers because we were very mindful erm in going through the requirement erm and not making significant changes as far as the U K was concerned and we needed to make some savings in cost if at all possible and therefore we carried out a very comprehensive review of all the items of role equipment such as drop tanks er pylons, explosive release units and those type of things which had been provisionally earmarked for a very high intensive and fairly long running conflict and it was felt that if we were to make some savings then it was a sensible balance to reduce those numbers on the basis that we could save some money in the programme but at the same time many of these items could be bought later on at relatively short notice, clearly not within a conflict but in the years to come. on that point. Erm as far as the drop tanks are concerned, does that have any impact on the range or are you just talking about the numbers that you will have spare? They're purely on on the numbers, the same er stand, the different sizes would still be available, there would merely be fewer of them in total stocks. But would you envisage that the numbers er of aircraft actually kitted out with these things have been reduced or are you talking about having spares in case they get lost or damaged? No the the very name, as the name implies, in many cases we would er jettison the drop tanks before entering combat and er therefore there is an agreed rate at which we would expect to use them so that they are a a usable stock in operations . and in training presumably do you drop them in training or do you not? No, not normally, no. So it's only operational. Yes. And can you give an indication of how quickly these things could be ordered in an emergency? Perhaps I can take that one er Group Captain. Once the erm drop tanks have been developed and have entered production in most of the lead time one associates with providing a capability has er has actually been avoided so we could re-order probably within a year. Very reassuring Mr Gordon, I, we're not necessarily gonna have a year's warning that that we're going to need these aircraft in the event of war. Well, that of course er may be true but er as the Group Captain has has said here in the reduced er spec position which we now face and judgement was taken as to how much we should invest in stocks of reserve drop tanks at this point and the option exists to order more. Can I ask it's absolutely meaningless to me, do you mean a month, three months, nine months, eleven months, eleven and a half months, what do you mean? No what I mean is that er once the item is in production if you wish to order another hundred drop tanks or another thousand drop tanks if you make that order then approximately one year later you would receive deliveries of those tanks against that order. Now that would be the normal peacetime lead time if we could accelerate that in industry and find some way of doing it then it may well be possible to do in quicker time than that. So in approximately one year you might be fourteen months or fifteen months? I I'm er quoting a hypothetical situation here that we have entered production with er production line for drop tanks maybe producing two, three thousand tanks against a projected usage for the next ten years and sometime during that period we decide you want to order an additional thousand tanks two thousand tanks then you could adjust the rate at which the deliveries occur, you could adjust the the the total quantity and with about a years notice industry can get in the materials and produce the goods for you. Does that answer your question? If er there was a crisis and there was a need for a rush order er one would be talking of weeks for something that is predesigned to start coming off the production line. experience during the Falklands war and during Gulf war indicated that once an item was in production tremendous acceleration is possible in the real war situation. Yes. I was discussing a year for a normal peacetime lead time. Presumably drop tanks aren't lost very often in peace time, it's operations that you've actually jettisoned, is that right? That is absolutely right, correct. Bruce George. Thank you,i do you feel a little uneasy at changing operational requirements based on er an assessment of a threat in nineteen ninety two, ninety three, which I presume would have to remain valid until two thousand and twenty. So how confident are you that potential adversaries will not have the capability in two thousand and twenty to make a mess of our runways as the Soviets would have done during the er the cold war? Erm I'm asking this question to e satisfy myself that these changes and reduction in costs are not the result of political expediency as opposed to er a genuine assessment of what the risk in the change environment is likely to be. fine. That is precisely the background to the study which was conducted by the four chiefs of defence staff, they were asking that kind of question and I'll now ask the Group Captain to respond. Yes er I think perhaps the point I'd like to emphasis is that the increase er in runway length is really quite a modest one er and therefore it hasn't had an enormous impact. Well the answer is yes but of course landing and taking off on a road is one thing, being able to operate is another one because clearly one needs er fuel, weapons, ground crew and the like but landing on a road in itself is is not difficult. Peter My I move to er questions about the er comparison between the erm Eurofighter and other fighters it might find itself in combat with. Well Peter I'm sorry but the notice only said once,Winston is meant to lead us into that I'm sorry. Right I'm sorry . Winston Churchill. When you updated er the combat analysis using the latest data on Eurofighter did you again compare er Eurofighter with alternatives such as an updated F sixteen or F fifteen er previous combat modelling showed that an alternative aircraft er apart from the F twenty two, did not approach the capability of Eurofighter. Did the latest modelling confirm this and what is the next best alternative in terms of capability. Right, Group Captain Granville White. Yes wh when they reported to the committee two years ago erm I explained that there was combat modelling going on at at the time and indeed that was completed by the end of nineteen ninety two and it showed that er of all the alternatives available then Eurofighter two thousand was the most cost effective solution to the R A F's requirements and yet it would it would not be able to meet up er to the F twenty two but other than that it was superior to all other aircraft. At the moment erm because of the extra time we've got available because production investment has been delayed because of ministerial decisions, we've set in train three further studies and they will look collectively at alternatives, comparison in combat modelling and also in the numbers and if I could describe those three very briefly because I think they're the they're relevant to what we're talking about. The the two, initially there are two studies which will look into numbers, one of those is a top downs study which is based on scenarios and will look at erm a variety of different situations around the world from an analytical point of view. The second one is erm a bottom up study which is based on today's commitments but projecting them forward into the timescale in which we will have the aircraft and looking in that way to see how many and and in what way we would need them. The third one focusing in specifically on the combat modelling is what is known as a C O E I A which is a combined operational effectiveness and investment appraisal and this work is being carried out at Farnborough and we're comparing in single roles and multi-role Eurofighter two thousand against different aircraft. So for example, in the specialist air defence er side we're looking at alternatives would be the F twenty two erm the current tornado F three and also an upgraded variant of the F three. In the ground attack side we're comparing it to the jaguar that it'll replace, the harrier G R seven and also the tornado G R four and then in the multi-role arena for air defence, air superiority and attack we're comparing our aircraft against the French Raphall the American F eighteen E which is the the future variant of the F eighteen, the F fifteen E, the multi-role but primarily air to surface machine and also the F sixteen C. Those are the ones we're currently looking at. As the cost of Eurofighter increases does there come a point where like the F twenty two i it becomes unaffordable and by how much would the performance of Eurofighter have to be degraded before it becomes equivalent to the nearest alternative? I wonder if I could answer that in a in a different way because clearly rather there's the option, rather than reduction the operational capability which was really the er initiative that had begun in nineteen ninety two, there is the option of course of er adjusting the total numbers and that would er have an overall bearing on the total programme cost but cert because certainly the judgement of the er the chiefs of staff was that er as far as the U K was concerned then we we should retain the operational capability as I explained earlier an n and not decrease it in any significant extent because if we did that then we could end up er with an inferior capability against a potential threat. During the last year erm when we were working on the requirement, we carried out a number of erm comparisons descoping or aircraft in various respects. For example taking out the forward looking infra-red, infra-red search and track, taking out the the M I D S, the multiple information distribution system and certain aspects of the er defensive aids, to see what impact that would have and we found that if we removed any one of those erm then we would either come down to parity against potential threat or possibly er inferiority and that was really the supporting evidence to retain the full capability. But Group Captain are you saying that as er a platform it has not been degraded at all, there's basically no change in thrust, in turn rate or in airframe G loading? Yes, that's correct. Thank you. Peter was your question answered or not? No in the air superiority role I didn't hear a comparison with the S U thirty five or the Fulcrum M E twenty nine S er are there any other aircraft of er perhaps comparable capacity with which you did not compare Eurofighter? What we've done,won one of the points I think that is worth er making perhaps is that on er over the last few years we've seen a complete change in world export philosophy where not only are the Russians exporting all over the place but clearly er there are a number of western aircraft in different parts of the world and therefore what we have also done is to, in comparing er our aircraft against other western ones, we've also looked at them as potential threats because it's possible that er erm western aircraft in certain hands could end up being used against us so we have also compared those. But the question that young pilots would want to know the answer to is this, erm are there aircraft anywhere in the world with which you have not made a comparison in terms of air superiority? No, there are none. So you have compared with the And the S U? Yes we've compared with everything and specifically the ones you've mentioned, the S U thirty five and the which is an upgraded S U twenty seven and the M I G twenty nine S, yes we've specifically compared against those two. And you've been reassured by the responses? Yes. Thank you Chairman. Thank you, Michael Colgan Yes Mr Chairman I'm not clear erm about something that Mr Gordon said in his opening remarks that I'd like clarified and that is that he gave the committee the impression that there were er certain of the of the partners that were accepting erm a lower specification in other words, omitting from the what is the British best if you like, erm certain items of of equipment in order to reduce cost of the aircraft, both in development stage and at the production stage, final cost of the aircraft, unit cost. Erm we asked the question about the aircraft's reduced operational capabilities as far as Britain is concerned, we were told that there was no reduction, erm there was no percentage figure that could be produced but w now what about the other countries, I mean, which countries are asking for what to be omitted and by how much is the percentage, in percentage terms er is the performance of the aircraft reduced in those cases and further on from that, picking up something that that Wing Com er Group Captain Granville White has just mentioned which i is the question of sales. Yes. Erm it does obviously have a bearing on sales to the third countries when the er aircraft is in production. Do I get the impression that we're basically building a a basic aircraft with optional extras, or are we building an aircraft which can be, to some degree, sanitised because obviously there are some parts of the specification of the aircraft we may not wish third cra countries to have. It's a well known fact that aircraft are sold all around the world, this can have a bearing on the capability and also a bearing on their cost and therefore saleability. Perhaps, from those remarks, it's hardly a question but perhaps you could just clarify Yes. my er thinking on on the on what you said in opening remarks which don't make it clear to me whether we've got a basic aircraft with optional extras or a fully specified aircraft from which we can dat deleted certain items of equipment. Erm, well I think I can reassure that it is the latter. The development programme for the aircraft will provide the broad range of capabilities which was asked for by all four nations originally and er the fact that one or more nations may have deleted its requirement for a particular facility doesn't remove the need for us to complete the development work er because we still have at least one or two customers for that facility. So it's definitely the latter, we are developing a fully capable Eurofighter two thousand aircraft and if erm any of our four participating nations do not want a particular facility then we will make provision for them to leave that out in production and if an export customer does not require the full range of capabilities we can also remove them for that export customer. But by how much could we degrade the aircraft and still be capable of erm competing with erm other aircraft in in the market? Well I I I would prefer to perhaps follow this one up in the closed session later but erm. we we'll pursue that er in private. Neville Trotter. going to go into service in the next century, it's going to be around till well into the next century. Very briefly what would it do that the present generation of aircraft won't, how is it a quantum leap ahead? Fine, I will again invite the the Group Captain to answer that. Perhaps I could er answer that in er I think there are probably four points that er come out to my mind erm the first one in the airframe engine combination, a very high degree of agility. The ability to be able to pull nine G which is er generally accepted to be the physiological limit for pilots, which is more than any of our aircraft can . What can we do now by contrast? Er, none of our aircraft can pull more than seven G, normal aircraft. There's also a close correlation by not just the erm the size of the number for G, but how long can it go on pulling that G given the thrust and the aerodynamic capabilities of the machine and we are essentially building this aircraft so that it can sustain nine G and we are providing the pilot with the sort of equipment he requires to be able to survive in that kind of environment. Is this for a dog fight? Yes, yes. . Th it has er a considerable negative G capability as well. Would it be able, er pulling that erm G to compete with the with the harrier using the technique? Erm Group Captain Granville White. The simple answer is yes. Er so I think the first of my four points is the is the airframe agility, clearly the the ability to m manoeuvre. The second erm is is and perhaps is related in a way er in the air to air weapons where erm in older missiles have had what is known as sort of bore sight capability where they go in the direction of the aircraft. Clearly to have the combination of an off bore sight capability for a a missile such as A S R A A M, the er advance short range air to air missile, the combination of the agility of the weapon and the flat platform together has been shown to be really needed, you can't have one without the other and that somebody who has only agility in the aircraft or agility in the in the weapon, will lose against somebody who has it in both. So I think that's the probably the sort of related point. Moving on into the sort of sensors and the electronics side, erm for survivability erm the defensive aid sub- system will be er very complex, very sophisticated but also integrated so that it has a complete system of protection for the aircraft, erm an and finally moving on on the sort of electronics side then clearly with different sensors such as the radar, the forward looking infra-red, infra-red search and track the er multiple information distribution system and also certain aspects of the er electronic warfare suite then by having sensor fusion which enables the best information at any one time to be correlated into the system as a whole then that will provide a very good capability and far in excess of anything that we have at the moment. Thank you very much. I'll ask Campbell to take us on into the question of the role of this aircraft. We understand that some new weapons, not previously in the specification, are to be included. Are you able to tell us in open session what sort of weapons are envisaged? Erm perhaps I can invite my colleague from the office of management and budgets to speak to that one. Erm chairman yes we hope to to erm, excuse me, to erm that E four will be capable of er sorry E F two thousand will be capable of handling all our erm planned weapons er which are already in our programme the er conventional er, the C A S O M, the conventionally armed, stand-off missile, the er anti- armour missile er twelve thirty eight and the future medium range air-to-air missile er whatever that happens to be er as a result of er competition. What about the low level laser guided bomb, is that also included in this? Yes it is. Erm does the fact of erm using the aircraft to er provide a platform for these systems, er tell us something about a change in view about the role or operating concept of the aircraft? Erm Group Captain Granville White . thank you Erm not not change erm with envisagement . Widen Wi certainly broaden, we've we've envisaged from the outset that the aircraft would be both will be multi- role capable and that erm all that the primary design driver will be the air-to-air air superiority role but the air-to-surface role would be almost an equal, clearly one has to have a a prioritisation and those particular weapons in the air-to-surface side, the conventional armed stand off missile along the low level er low level laser guided bomb and the future anti armour weapon, they clearly erm really take the weaponeering side into the next century. We will still have the ability to carry today's weapons such as the the L seven five five cluster bomb unit, the thousand pound bomb erm and the C R V seven rocket and things like that but clearly as we move forward into the century it's important that as the platform progresses then so does the aircraft. Are the any weapons er which the aircraft er would not be able to , for example the J P two three three closely associated with the tornado, er is that a system which you would anticipate Eurofighter two thousand to be able to carry? No, it it's too large and too heavy and really that is a different role that's more the role for the tornado G L one, G L four. And I think you mentioned thousand pounds bombs. Yes. Is that the, is that the limit could anything heavier than that It's , no it's not the limit er the limit of weight, it can carry er heavier ones. You may not wish to say in open session . I think probably as you . in closed session. Yes, it's probably more appropriate. Erm I was rather interested by the comparisons which you explained a little earlier in the evidence erm if you've got an aircraft which is er going to replace, as I understand it the Jaguar and the Phantom which has already been retired,er against which you've been comparing the F three er and the G R four of the tornados and the harriers, then er that gives rise in my mind to the possibility that this is an aircraft which might replace all of these, in which case will that have consequences for the still er publicly declared intention to order two hundred and fifty, might we order more for example? Mr Evans. Erm as you say Mr Campbell er the plan at the moment is that the F two thousand will replace jaguar and the tornado A D V F three aircraft and the scope er of replacing other aircraft er remains under consideration, er provisional off take of two fifty er was declared at the d the start of the development phase and of course our work share in development is based on that number. Before we seek authorisation for the production phase, it will be necessary for each nation to restate or modify it's planned off take and that will be done very firmly on the basis of the studies which er Group Captain Granville White has already d described which will factor in er against our military tasks, which is,y you know we define now fairly clearly, er exactly what aircraft are needed to undertake those tasks in what scenarios and in the future er as you say, there may well be scope for er adding additional aircraft types to that. Well I think I understand that answer to be an affirmative, that if this aircraft is capable of replacing, if you like, the suite of aircraft we've been discussing, then er that may well result in orders for more than two hundred fifty. It could do because obviously there are a number of other considerations, not least affordability er within the defence programme which erm from my point of view is a very important consideration. But of course if one wants to continue to have the capability into the next century, which the present er range of aircraft provides, er then Eurofighter two thousand may be the only available platform for those purposes. Indeed and I think the er the point about Eurofighter is that it's a very flexible er aircraft, it's a multi-role aircraft, it's a cost effective aircraft and therefore it er, as you say, may well be able to cover quite a large spectrum. Can I ask you about er the medium range surface to air missile because er, you won't be surprised to learn, that er the committee's received a number of submissions on this matter er which suggest that er er t to proceed with Eurofighter two thousand without the medium range surface to air missile er I mean to be put rather bluntly to us, that it makes little sense to proceed with the aircraft without a replacement for blood hound. What's your response to that? Well I think perhaps I can start that and the Group Captain may want to come in. Er I think our position is that we provide as you know, air defence through a layered system er of air defence aircraft and missiles and the simple truth is that in the light of the changes in the strategic er setting, particularly er as it affects U K air defence, we have decided that the provision of a medium defensive layer, that is the M sound system to which you refer, is not a high priority at the moment and the programme is therefore being postponed and I have to emphasise it's not been abandoned. Well erm if I were then to ask you when what was your best estimate to when the programme was likely to be commenced. I fancy you would not be able to give me any more precise an answer than one you've just given, isn't that right? Well programmers tend not to be precise in this, in this kind of er context er Mr Campbell. But certainly we er as I said, the essential point is that we are looking, looking at the capability across the board and taking into account the strategic requirement as we see it in terms of the direct threat to the U K in particular, which is obviously dramatically declined as a result of the collapse of the Warsaw pact. We believe that certainly for the time being, the combination of the fighter aircraft and rapier will provide an acceptable level er of air defence with a much reduced air threat to the U K er which now exists. We will continue to look at er the future programme er we will also as you know, look at ballistic missile defence which is another element to this and that must need to be fact facted in as well but I think clearly we are not talking about in the medium term er and longer term, we are talking about er a fairly late stage of the programme. I mean how do you protect Eurofighter two thousand in the absence of the medium range surface to air missile on the, I think you you told us about er the aircraft themselves as it were providing their own protection but what else? Well as I've said we we have as you say y y yourself, you have the aircraft itself, you have the er the existing er air defence aircraft, you have rapier and in in our view, er in certainly in terms of the U K's threat er that is er an acceptable er er suite of preventative measures in the light of the threat which we now have. I think I have to make the point to you that we are planning to roughly double the size of the er airforce equipment programme er between now and the end of the century, a very substantial chunk of that is E F two thousand and its er associated weapon systems and, you know, one has to frankly, take er a view on priorities er in the light of the strategic requirement and given the er extent of the threat as we see it, the possibility of using er of taking part in out of area operations in coalitions, that kind of thing, that was the judgement we took er the medium term priorities were such that we couldn't afford the first er stage of A M S A M. W was that decision to any extent er influenced by, if I can put it rather er ineptly, the state of blood hound when it was taken out of service. Well as you know I think the committee looked at this erm in nineteen ninety one and er I think it is fairly true to say that by the time it was taken out of service blood hound did not represent a very high level of capability erm and the gap, there is a gap obviously between blood hound it'll it'll now be a rather longer gap between that and any A M S A M replacement, er but blood hound itself was judged to be frankly not worth having. I remember Mr Alan Clarke who was then minister of responsibility saying rather elliptically in the house of commons that the removal of blood hound did nothing to degrade Britain's air defence. I would not wish to disagree with Mr Clarke. Well I wouldn't offer that as a general er proposition. Neither would I actually, in this particular case . perhaps we should confine it to the specifics we're talking. One last matter please erm, so far as I understand that you've not yet drafted the separate staff requirement for reconnaissance, I beg you pardon, reconnaissance equipment for Eurofighter two thousand. Are you able to tell us what the timescale of that is? Perhaps I can ask Group Captain? Yes. of the four nations in the programme, the U K is the only one that has a requirement for reconnaissance. Erm, and at the moment we are carrying out some studies which er are nearing completion, to decided exactly what the R A F's future requirements are for tactical reconnaissance. As that work comes to er fruition, the staff target will be drafted and in fact work is already begun on that, erm but because the reconnaissance capability won't be required until fairly late in the replacement programme then there is no particular hurry to get on with the work. What we hope to be able to do is to complete the requirement the staff target this year and set in train some industrial studies to see what the various options are and then once we enter the production investment phase then that would be the time that we would er look to doing the development work. Are these costs included in the overall estimates which have been given to us f for the reconnaissance. reconnaissance. Er, yes indeed they are. They are many thanks, thank you. Neville Trotter. from what you've told us, it would be possible for this aircraft to be so multi mission it could replace the whole of the front line er R A F fast jet strain, could that be true? Group Captain. I I think the the the point I would I wish to make is that in whilst er its multi role capability would have enabled it to replace a number of roles and possibly a number of er aircraft and er as Mr Evans said earlier, that's still being looked at. The one role that it won't be able to carry out is, as we were talking earlier, about the er J P two three three, runway denial weapon and also er nuclear. So that that,those two roles er clearly cannot be covered by it. I I was also thinking o of Veestol and and er the weapons going on and the mistakes anyway on on the developing a harrier replacement, is the R A F still interested in that as a feature a short take-off vertical take-off? I think the R A F would would clearly be interested in in keeping in touch with what's going on there, of course the states themselves er the picture is not entirely clear er about er what kind of types are going to emerge in the longer term but we would certainly wish to keep a a close view on what was going on and of course there is a Navy dimension to to the harrier replacement as well. Coming back to what you said about the load carrier, we are supposed to no longer be in the nuclear game in the airforce, isn't that right coming out of the nuclear role? So that would no longer be a consideration. I think I think erm it's a question, Mr Trotter, it's the long range penetrator I think which erm is is the distinction, it's the ability to get through low level, longer range and carrying greater level of ordnance than either . Wh what about er runway lengths, obviously depends on what it's carrying but er how how does it compare with existing aircraft for that? Erm, it's very much shorter because as we were saying earlier on the the short take off and landing capability, erm with er I'd prefer to talk about distances perhaps in the closed session but the er the simple answer is very much . Only one crew member with all the technology in the world, some of us still think that it's a comfort to have somebody in the back watching the systems. Well that particular subject of course is er er still a matter which is discussed with great heat er in the crew rooms all over the Royal Air Force. Especially the navigators. Exactly and er we are buying er a two seat version of this aeroplane er our two seat version is aimed primarily at operational training but er we have examined er time and again whether we believe the er the integration of the avionics which is possible in this aeroplane and which is planned for this aeroplane er is going to be able to reduce the pilot work load to such an extent that one man can comfortably do the job and we have arrived at the conclusion that he most certainly can. The er work which has preceded at er British Aerospace in the the cockpit, to bring together all the information, displays and controls erm has been tested on er a team of eighteen pilots from, drawn from the four nations, to see whether they believe they can cope with that sort of pilot work load in in simulated operations and they're content that this kind of cockpit is ideally suited for the task and they can cope. So we are convinced that it is er a cheap one. What about spare aircraft. Do you set out the sum, er you must set out some calculation of how many you are likely to to lose over the life of the aircraft, is there a percentage figure you could give us for that? Erm, Mr Evans er will reply to that, obviously we we do plan for certain levels. Yes I think it's fair to say at the moment that, that, that is being looked at Mr Trotter, together with er the broader range of issues on the er the operating concept er for E F two thousand but it is of course standard practice to buy not just the number you need for the front line but to buy sufficient aircraft to keep that front line in field for about twenty five, thirty years, whatever the life of the aircraft happens to be, taking account of er attrition, taking account of training requirements and engineering needs and support needs and all that kind of thing and all that work er is, has been done, is being done at the moment and er final figures will be put to that in in due course. Thank you, Mr Colgan. Mr erm bearing in mind it its multi role capability and the fact that the U K is likely to be engaged in more and more out of air operations in support of U N er has any consideration been given to a maritime variant. Would that be er a practical thing to do or would you have to start redesigning a new aircraft? Er by maritime variant do you . I mean from air, to fly from aircraft carriers. The short answer is no. Not at this stage. Is that because of technical difficulties, or for some other reason. Erm er it's basically that there is no stated requirement at present from any of the four nations, for this aircraft to operate on ships er back in the early days of the programme when the the French were involved er we looked at the possibility of designing an aircraft er to provide the whole spectrum of capabilities from air defence er ground attack and also maritime operations off ships and er we we certainly experienced some difficulties in reconciling all those things in one design, which was adequately capable in each of the areas. Thank you Campbell. There's an ambiguity I suspect it it's a in my mind rather than yours about the nuclear role, did I understand you to say that Eurofighter two thousand would not have the capability of carrying for instance the W E one seven seven, we know that the is not going to be er taken any further according to recent announcement but will Eurofighter two thousand have the capacity to carry W E one seven seven? No that demonstrated the point I was making, it will not. So it, in the absence of the Tasm and in the absence of the capability then it's not gonna have a nuclear role. No. Thank you very much. Winston Churchill. Would there not be merits er at least putting in the requisite wiring in case at a future date, that a C A S O M for instance, became dual capable? Er, perhaps I could make er one comment, maybe Mr Gordon will ma wish to make a a technical comment on it, but certainly when we began the programme and we discussed with the other nations in the early stages of of the collaboration. erm It was really one of the guidelines, it was the, if we considered doing that then I don't think we would have had a four nation programme or certainly a five nation programme at the start, I don't think we would've er stayed together, it was really one of the basic requirements not to have that capability. But is it not an add on capability er to a large degree if the basic wiring is there? I think we'd find Mr Churchill that it it's rather more complex than that and and the requirements for delivering a nuclear weapon and you refer to the possibility of C A S O M being nuclear capable, one has to be fairly careful quite a, there's a degree of difference between a missile needed to do the two jobs and I think it would be rather more than wiring which would be er at issue here, there's the payload and all the rest of it which I suspect would cause very severe problems with that. Er well we always start from what does the operator of this aircraft want to use it for. This E S R D really is the bible and we have specified the aircraft to meet that E S R D and not anything extra, er obviously if one of the four nations wants to build a nuclear role into the aircraft that becomes a very big political question first and foremost and we have just not considered it at the technical level at all because it's er it's not in the requirement. Is it a big technical problem or is it very straight forward. Er I don't think I'd wish to speculate in in open forum. It doesn't require a great bite of imagination to see that the Germans for example would have been extremely reluctant to have been involved in a four nation project with a nuclear capability available as part of it. Well I I I wouldn't er pin point the German attitude on this one, I mean after all we did collaborate with Germany very successfully on the tornado which has a nuclear role but the the four governments must first of all decide if that is what we want to build into this aeroplane and they decided that they did not at that stage. I stand corrected. Fine. If I just er end this this particular item in two brief questions. From what you said about reconnaissance equipment it rather sounds to me as if the tornado D R one A is likely to be replaced by in this reconnaissance role. Is that right? I think as a Group Captain er explained y'know the the operational staff have really got to complete their study into what kind of tactical reconnaissance capability they want in the next century. The D R one A is currently an excellent er tactical reconnaissance aircraft, all weather, at night etcetera and er it will go on well into the next century so there's no great hurry to to make a decision er one of the first points has gotta be decided is whether we carry the reconnaissance equipment in a pod under the aircraft replacing some of the other weapons or whether we try to build it in and er but taking first things first we have to get the requirement sorted out. Thank you and as far as the jaguar's concerned I noted that the jaguar is not being phased out now until two thousand and four, that being a three year further delay. Is that related to the delay in production dates? Erm, Mr Evans. Er no I don't think it is Mr Chairman. And do we know what the reasoning behind it is . Well we do or we'd, it had already been envisaged that er the jaguars would run out at er roughly that time. I think it was three years earlier though wasn't it? Well er the I mean there has been a slight complexity with the replacement er programme of course because er er E F two thousand was originally envisaged that it would replace the phantoms er as as as as well as the jaguars and now that er has altered with the decision in options to er get rid of er the phantom squadrons, we've er been able to adjust the replacement programme such that er the aircraft E F two thousand will replace er the erm er the jaguar and some of the F threes er and the programme will be adjusted such that we get er the most cost effective er mixture of replacement of those two types and there is no problem with keeping the jaguar going until that stage and it may well be it is, is being judged to be cheaper that we should er do some F three replacement at the same time, again partly for cost reasons because it's gonna be more cost effective to do it that way. like the jaguar really be able to go on that long given er that er there's an awful lot of errors in the Gulf apart from anything else. Well obviously that factor er was considered carefully by the Ministry of Defence before our Secretary of State agreed that we could safely defer the in service date for Eurofighter two thousand and adjust the the er replacement plan er back in December ninety two, so we have looked at what is the current rate of consumption of airframe life on the jaguar er what can be done economically and sensibly to keep it flying safely and effectively into the next century and er we have come to the conclusion that we have a viable plan here which can tie up with the planned rate of delivery to service of Eurofighter two thousand. So are you gonna have to restrict training in er operational flights jaguar at a stretch just to stretch out the hours? We understand that that is not necessary but erm my colleague may wish to. No . But it does sound from what you're telling us now that it is actually directly related and to recall my original question, was it related to programme to which I had the answer no, erm what you said . Well I I apologise we're not trying to mislead you er Mr Chairman in any way. Clearly there is a connection, if Eurofighter two thousand was available earlier then they the plan for replacing er some of the aircraft in the R A F's front line er could be adjusted accordingly erm but it's not a sort of direct one for one er if the part of the programme slips a year the jaguar must go on an extra year because within the R A F's overall plans for its er fleet replacement there is a certain degree of flexibility an and precisely which point the jaguars get replaced is er a judgement between them and their three. I think I know what you mean anyway, thank you. Neville Trotter Two er requirements for the future that er seem to be er er desirable are stealth and what could be stealthier than the present generation of aircraft and secondly to prevent you having to go over your target you're likely to be shot down so that you need a stand up weapon capability, er if the payload is somewhat limited can it still carry stand off weapons that are effective? Er, Group Captain. those yes, yes. Erm perhaps I could would it, I wonder if you could just expand on stealth exactly what the er Have actually already covered them another time and I don't want to get deeper in the stealth now than that, there's a limit on the time now available this morning. Can we deal with the weapon question, the stand off weapons. I can answer that very briefly Mr Chairman er yes, there will be the capability to carry stand off weapons the conventionally armed stand off missile for example will have a good stand off range. That will be carried by . That will be carried and er with a shorter range but the advanced anti armour weapon, that will also have a stand off capability and that will also be carried. go on into the development timescale and costs. Yes it's now going to take two years longer I think than was originally er contended, to what extent is this due to technical difficulties and to what extent is it due to one of our partners and Germany one's thinking of in particular, wishing to slow the programme down for fiscal reasons? Well erm it's a combination of both those factors er as I've mentioned at the outset the development programme has moved ahead a little more slowly than we would wish, the main reasons for this were associated firstly with the delay in selecting equipment er and that took longer than our contractor ha had imagined. Secondly the deliveries of the equipment from the equipment suppliers who had been selected er generally fell behind the promises which they had made, so the main reason for the technical delays has been lack of equipment of the correct standard to proceed with the integration programme erm the erm the problems which beset the programme in nineteen ninety two after the German minister started questioning its future clearly had a direct bearing on that because many of the equipment suppliers, particularly those in Germany, suddenly began to think hey this programme is not going anywhere, why should we invest a lot of effort and and money into it and they slowed down so that has had a knock on effect in in terms of delaying the total programme and erm the result of all of that has been that the current development programme schedule which we have supplied to the committee is probably about as fast as the programme is capable of running. First flight still going to be in April? We are confident it will be in April, yes. And will that aircraft be less capable in its first flight than you'd originally hoped? Erm it has always been planned that the this er release of the flight control system, will be phased through five steps and the capabilities at first flight are more or less what we had been planning er right from the outset. The cost is going to be some three thousand four hundred million I think to er to the U K. That's er gone up by about thirteen percent, four hundred million roughly, er over the original estimates, half of that is due to programme re-orientation because of the extension of the programme by two years as I understand it. Can you spell out what those costs are and are we having to pay more because Germany wants to slow the programme down? Perhaps I can ask Mr Perry to er fill in the details on costs? Yes. Erm Mr Trotter er that er apportionment of the four hundred and fifty million between er the effect of programme re-orientation and other factors. Can I just say that I had figured four hundred million, it is in fact four fifty. Four fifty million sorry. Four fifty million, erm between programme re-orientation and other factors was an apportionment we made back in the er first half of nineteen ninety three and in the light of later information I think we would revise that now erm we are still negotiating with the contractors on the revised contract price and we do not have definitive costs yet but in fact the cost increase as a result of the rescheduling of the programme directly should be quite modest. There are some unavoidable costs er on that count, particularly on the engine programme where delays to the aircraft programme which results in extra costs on the engine side are the customer's liability. Erm, but the main increase in cost is actually in the equipment area and results I think from the fact that the equipment prices turned out to be higher than was originally estimated at the start of the programme and also the fact that U K industry won a higher work share on equipment than we had originally been entitled to and budgeted for and lastly the point you mentioned that Germany has withdrawn from some parts of the requirement and that made certain equipments non common and we have had to take a larger share of the cost of those equipments than originally planned. Okay, can you spell out how our share of the cost has increased because our share of the work has increase. I thought that presumably the bill was still divided proportionately between the countries. No the, the bills are met by er on the territorial funding basis so basically we pay for the work done in the U K. From which we will get the benefit presumably when production starts. In in in in er general terms, whether the production work sharing is. Er er I was with you then selling then. Er you also basically er the first thing you did was erm the second thing you mentioned was these two hurdles, the third thing you did was check when you was to proceed. Er the fourth thing you did was introduction to the C C Q. So you went four, in one to seven you went four, three, six, seven and I think you missed out and appropriate sociability . I didn't ten minutes later. I wasn't sure if there or well there may be so whatever reasons it just went out the window. Erm still friendly still relaxed which is very important part er and er tried. Once you got into the C C Q erm for me it sounded like a string of questions erm I couldn't hear any at all or any open questions into any of the answers that were given to you on question. Erm there was, there was one module,and develop that . How did it go? Nothing at all erm there was something there important time of the year . Again with the Royal Navy Reserve mentioned just, just question, you register the answer and on you went. Er I'll just put Miss signal to probe into areas. First one was worked abroad expand on that. I think the proof of the pudding was that y you know you finished up in twelve minutes and arguably you have three minutes could have been spent floating around just chatting about this, that and the other. Er I was, I was surprised erm because it was, it wasn't as good as I started. So there we are it's a bitter critique. Very relaxed, good effort Pete. I've got the feeling that I was th there to talk about it break erm, Doris all of it. she did all those steps . right order. In fact erm I've ticked them all eventually erm you actually did them out of order. There was a potential benefit and I can't remember exactly Erm p pro probes, nearly all closed erm we were taking notes of sort to follow up things. Yes. You weren't asking to expand it. Tell me about these things, so you don't smoke, you don't and there's all sorts of problems. Erm when said, said it all and then should say that but there's nothing more I can say and so the overall thing was great. relax, just put the guy talk themselves till the cows come home, I would have done erm this, got the structure the wrong way round Over to you. Right erm a lot of good things there erm empathy is I think the second thing I wrote down on, on the strength, brilliant very see that obviously open up erm there was interest in what I was doing, you, you were confident. I thought you did ask some, there were a lot of good overall questions to start with but I think they tailed away very quickly. Erm fact that you set up the scene for the introductions and you asked for it that you, you know, took and reduced those people to an image of which was good. Erm you had a statement of Barbara's,if it was in there, it was planned so that you crew can work harder erm although you filled in the bonus question well,the there was a tend dangerous tendency for you be sucked in to go into the bonus and I think you did well to say yeah well we'd better walk along to that so you held out which was nice because if I had if you hadn't tackled that you might have been shown the door once you'd gone through that . Erm yeah you will see you, you will seek an application and er you've checked on the completeness of the information. A lot of people would have just kept it, that thirty five thousand, nothing else but you went in, you picked up the R N V R. Erm well what's come out you see, you did finish early and there are a lot of, if you like, no, they weren't red herrings but laissez needed a bit further probing like on the income, thirty five thousand, yeah, but is there anything else, well yeah there's the car, there's the all of those are pensionable. You could have Yeah so, there's a bit more, more could have been written down on that. I saw you write down crafty so you picked up his little circle, it could be used for referrals, there's the R A R obviously is another one so they're things that can be er picked up. You didn't ask a question about my you accepted at face value the thing about health. Is there not a question in there, unless I'm going, er does it ask you er alright you can talk fast something like that whether you've had a serious illness or just put there what's your present state of health, present state of health. take any regular medication Present state of health That's right you did ask me that you did erm, I think you've not been asked to do, to say anything about have you had any serious illnesses at all. Yeah it has cropped up. Yeah. Something ag again you when you're doing it, in other areas of the industry if you're not taught the structure you, you are not taught properly, you get these very bad habits and essential thing which is coming out by not following the structure in order I actually wrote down er by missing the business card and the buyer's guide at the beginning, I was actually I've got to slip this in somewhere and not listening to what you were saying and some of what you said went straight over my head which is bad because you're missing things then. Er some of the . Yeah some, some of ours . Get away from there. I usually get round people like that though because if somebody said that not at all but, you know, there are tax advantages in it sort of thing erm . Yeah it's just a small volume, you've just got one channel for, yeah currently I'm in pretty good shape but only a year ago I had a major bypass operation. So you've just got to watch out that you you're gonna miss those things if you're not careful. Okay with education of children, does that not crop up on this? Mm. Yes . Erm, what else was there, tennis? Did you, did you think there was Tennis Club yes . Because there were, there were easily three lists of influence on referrals that you need to be attuned to, that I gave you in that one erm praise, give a bit of praise to my wife because all I'm proud of crafty , I thought, you know, why didn't you say that was a beautiful brief. Yeah. And when you go home Because I would think it's that I hadn't given you the I knew Is that when it clicked? Yeah,th well no just before then I kept thinking God I haven't the buyer's guide and all that bit just went straight over my head that's . I wasn't listening and it was important that I should have picked that up. I mean you obviously did well because you've realized you've forgotten it and you know you've gotta, the ideal two worst steps over to, the person who's sitting here is not gonna say, hold on, where's the buyer's guide, It's not that important sir . unless it's the but er if you've forgot it back good reason for handing it over so yeah I mean I, I think that well I've given you the, the, the strength if you like we can see it, perhaps a little bit more open questioning wouldn't go amiss would it? No. did it so well the other Friday when in the It was preparation that did it wasn't the preparation, but yours was the best, best one of Friday because we had to sit and prepare what we were doing. Er I'd, I'd picked out because I knew a lot about the client whereas here I know nothing about the client. the case in fact in real life is there Yeah, yeah. but if you, if you looking at some things that came up there are crafty marks That's interesting where do they meet, walk down to the local church and that's great well what sort of time do they meet oh you know eleven till five? Now if you can go there all you're doing is if you're showing interest and you qualify like you reckon is it going to be worth my while, what sort of people go there, you know the R N I. How often do you meet and how many people there, you're showing interest but you're also qualifying at the same time and it's not padding, it's actually useful information because you're thinking well that's worth pursuing the R N I, yes but there's money there. The, they really convert bibles for doing that is because I've always done that of er right that's, that's out of the way, jump the paperwork, now what about talking about your clubs and that t to sort of close down the call and relax the client for getting into referral mode and I've always done it tail end on so the introduction to the referral is at the beginning and perhaps looking for them during i is totally unfamiliar, I mean I do note the odd thing as I go through and note them down on the, the but I'd never been used to actually although we were told referrals how and why that went with it. I think that's very valuable here because we've given all that stuff up front. It's very easy to do it because all you do is how many people go there, you know, who runs it runs it stuff like that and you just, you're exploring and you're getting more information and it's that's great, fine. Now if we get back to what we were talking about due to today so then you do a bit more and then it's back to the sort of really. It's not quite the pressure, I mean I always find those two pages which is facts and that's it but that's the new dimension to it so that helps a lot. The other thing I wondered when I was watching the video, you sat there at one stage, while I was writing and I thought, I thought, what are you thinking? Why didn't you ask me? Because I didn't notice it when I was actually doing it. Oh right. on the video because I was writing, I wasn't watching you, Yeah. I was writing and on the video you're sitting there going. Well what's going through your mind she writing the answer to those questions. And as you said, firing one question after another. Do you think that was the reason why you missed it?write it down. the reaction to but if you do see them you should always ask, you say you're very puzzled aren't you. Mm. well I'm a bit puzzled why, why you want to know all this and you think because I haven't given, given a good benefit that's why a good temporary benefit, that's why I'm puzzled, say well let me just take you back to why I'm h why I'm here,let me get out of our meeting you're gonna find this extremely valuable, perhaps for the first half we will spend time looking at your financial put you on the path to achieve financial . Well that's what we're here today to look at. What's a good answer to that because I found a lot of people, we had that actually on our and one of them was that she . Now to put that into a phrase I found quite difficult to do er and but some people wouldn't question it but other people would say well what do you mean by that, what you know you plan for the future so that you can retire will be financially independent but it works and you your money work for you. Means when it's put out to pasture Give you an income Right Means you're gonna live in a field. Means when you can choose when you retire decide you have to retire and you will enjoy proper, you can have an income erm which is going to be erm commensurate with what you are currently earning. So that's the trouble. Which say have er retire in dignity and comfort, that's the difference between being an old man and being a gentleman. Is that right. Rightio, well I hope you've rewound your tape so it's alright don't worry about that Anything else on that one? Manager whatever you call it. Do we, do we move on to Yes, we just move on to the what we need is a five minute preparation or whatever. Do you, do you collect these? I'm not sure we're going to It would be useful to have it. route now you see. Yes I do I'm moving on I've got to find my way to somewhere else now. Well where did you start? well hang on to it just in case but I'm sure you'll be getting these Do you do you want the one I did? Ah Do you want that one? Yeah I think they would be helpful Alright. I always lock that one. I was surprised as much as anything Diane. you can keep it . If, if that's wrong then I'm sure it Well I'm not going to lose it Right anyone know where cl I'm trying to think where the one Oh that's his erm gentleman dialect I think Dialect. Picking up the dialect corpus, British corpus corporation they want to get have so many millions of spoken words so many millions of words. Excuse me. Yes. it's the next one along What did I do took my key out of here They've gone. This key here. No that's not mine, mine's only got fifteen on the back one there I thought, that's strange having one Now comes the problem. Yeah I was aware that that Is to know it all and can sit down and watch you two yes that's er It's a different world when you get out there. Right which is your tape? Have you just left that running? I'm not sure where it is film, we'll have to just er last week. Right hear and get you to the right part. I am not sure if we rewound it or what. Want to keep on it Well thanks a lot for your time Okay. and I'll see you goodbye. That's something else I picked up from watching Okay Thank you for your help today, thank you for . I've never been used to doing that and it makes such a lot of difference when you actually speak to the people. Mm It helps a lot. I, I, what I try to do is switch off erm, and be myself. Mm mm. Because I find that er I can talk to people now, we chat away as I would in a pub, or in someone's house but then this is the bit that worries me. Just try and get the structure right I went wrong I'm just me when I go in, erm it's getting the structure in there. I mean, as you say, I cover all the points but because you don't do them in the right order perhaps you muck them up Oh yeah I er sat there and thought oh crikey and I looked across at Barry and he got cross, cross, cross and Yeah, where did mine go I did one on Barry but I don't know what I've done with it. Yeah. but then suddenly you you're back into it. scripts Show me what you can do. It's this erm, as mentioned on the telephone the purpose of my visit is er erm the whole review should take about forty five minutes, well that's up to now are we supposed to say. Erm, well we've got, I'll take a few notes erm during this, during the course of our conversation, I'll take them away, study them in complete confidence and come back to you next week with my recommendations. Does this sound okay to you? Well there, erm you, you've introduced your C C Q And what are you going to do? Good start and I've found by adopting this approach I've been able to erm help clients in many areas which has saved them tax or making their money work harder for them. How does that sound? Well I've done it but all in the wrong order. Mm mm Well I'd like you to try that one today but I go to pieces Now I, they could, erm one thing that I found b b b b picked up from doing my own reading and studying was that it's always good to go through with the customer step by step which is to a certain extent what we do do as you said the steps of it and that you will come back with your recommendations and that. Now I missed that out totally there so I've got a lot of learning to do on the scripts Why do you think you missed it I find that difficult was it, was it, was it because he just er turned up, was it, was it, did that throw you off a bit? Yeah there was no preparation for it really and I haven't learnt the scripts properly, Right they're not going in. Old habits die hard erm Yes it's easier said than done just going in and sort of lying by the seat of your pants. And you can also get lost even if you do say the script because I said to Roger I, I've Er tried it to remember the script but then I Hang on why I've lost the statement of the person What's going on here? I'm just forwarding my tape Oh right. There's yours. No I know that's there cos it's Roger Yeah yes I think you know I was con trying to concentrate on getting the facts over and doing it properly and not listening for the comments so much and thinking more you know what, what can I get out of this here erm You get drawn into, you know, too much unnatural structure don't you really? Mm. I've lost my buyer's guide. talk. So I didn't do any appropriate sociability there but I think what threw me off is cos I'd already said Helen to Stephen, I know you and everything and it was as if it was part of the same thing Yeah and to switch off and then go into role play after very strange I don't know percent. I think he's got . Right. I like Stephen Yeah. Really good company. I'll tell you why Yeah I, I would say, I would say that's yeah I'm trying to find paper somewhere, oh here we are it's much harder than erm the was. Yeah, yeah. I would say that. Yeah certainly. Yeah but that's what it's all about . He was more erm realistic as a real situation. Constructive as well. Yeah he was more real I mean when you sort of just sit there she, she threw me off track a few times but er he was more realistic so therefore. What's all this about bonuses bonus. where's me structure gone, that's not me structure. Yeah I think it's erm Martin aren't I and he was going to throw you . All over the place . Yeah. I shouldn't worry. Just do your best I think Is your tape still running? Yes it is it's still going. It's you learn as much from your mistakes Erm you learn more from your mistakes than you actually learn from doing it right I think. You do, yes You do Yeah. I mean you know when it works Is that your business card? picked up . This must be an ideal situation for you actually cos we're being, we're sitting here being recorded and being watched so we're used to that sort of thing but not particularly conscious of it What tape? I supposed you've a bit of scan Got a second tomorrow, so that's seven the whole bit the whole week is all about that until we get to the presentation presentations, what does he mean by presentations? I don't know. Because two of them don't have to be done are they That's when they've got to do their, their resits. They had the choice of doing it erm this afternoon Oh right. but erm I don't think Joan, at the time,last night, Joan said that she was a bit too tired to Bob was having to just fit in with that so I don't know what they're gonna do. last night I went half past ten cos I was at half past, quarter past one. I would have loved to have stayed because I really enjoy things like that, I love discos and get up and have a dance but I knew damn well that if I did I'd be absolutely shattered today and I, I just wouldn't be with it so I, I said to Matthew I'm going up . Yeah. So and I went down in the pool this morning At the time you enjoy it but then the next day you pay Feel sorry about it yeah. Well that's why I did it because I don't often get the opportunity to go out and enjoy myself like that . Yeah. I was tempted now, no Yeah basically why I didn't, I wasn't going to consume all that Guinness either . Well I remember feeling quite niffed because Matt was really off on Friday because he'd been up so late Yeah. and I think that rather ruined the whole afternoon erm role plays he was just so tired, he He was just out of it. He was like a zombie . He's a stroppy little sod isn't he? Can be. He was trying to, he was doing a laugh laughing fit last night, he was, he, he couldn't tell me what he was trying to tell me. Every time he told me, he started laughing. Oh dear,we he wen got up I still didn't know what it was he was trying to tell me No, I was told before I came on the course, you're going on the course to learn to make maximum use out of it, you're not going on an almighty second holiday and booze up. We were given the, a right old drumming down before we left for here. Mm. You are all representing these branches Oh no it wasn't quite that bad. and you all . Get up at two, I don't think got much mention to them at all from what I was Oh no, it was just because I went to talk to my manager about it before I went and I went through my diary with him and everything. My appointments and everything I'd got before I came along and erm he went on to tell me, if company . Mm. He feels I've got to take the client back over to or something. waiting it's just getting on your nerves now, I was quite calm and relaxed Organize yourself a bit, what you're gonna say and how long you're gonna to the other. Well no, I started to do that, then I, then I thought we don't play the customer . If I get into a structure, if I, if I start trying to learn it I'm gonna do it all. Slow it down. Mm mm. Turn that off for a minute I liked that bit you said, greeting an appropriate sociability,. yeah. Lorraine door. our erm assistant manager. They're agents Matt and I are in her team. Hard task master. Apparently there was a woman A B M at our branch until recently and apparently she was very good too. That's what Joan was saying the other day as a woman you have to be, otherwise you don't get there. Yeah and she's totally focused, she's er, I think she's got two children erm her husbands works, she's got two children she's brought up and developed herself to be a branch manager or assistant branch manager er she's got a degree h now don't listen to this Lorraine, who it said mid thirties and actually she's excellent and I like her not like working for a female boss good people er the victim I'm the victim. Now you're the victim are you? I'm the victim. I think if you've, if you've got a woman that's then you're lucky How you going, alright, yes Whoosh. Ta. When you're ready, then. There was a Right so I'll be the timekeeper Yes please I think if it makes any difference to you we've got a thingy whirring away there. No that's not a problem. It's just recording A thingy whirring away. Yes Yeah that's fine. Am I Erm you covered it slightly, you need to be sort of in, either any yeah Do you want ask you to sit in the other chair? Don't mind. It's recording now anyway. Yeah. Come in. Got Roger instructions. Hello Roger. The chef. very much. Okay. garden you've got. I couldn't help noticing as I walked up the path. Is that you? No no, they're the Really. I try not to though, I mean that's her responsibility, I buy the plants and she puts them in the garden, er in the . What sort of hobbies do you do when ? Oh I do D I Y around the house you know I've got these rather er sexy lamps up there different aren't they. Where did you see those? . Do a job lot you know, four something, four eighty keeps the wife happy. They need to be, yes. Okay Martin, I know you are a busy man, may I call you Martin ? Well I'd rather you didn't actually. Right okay that's no problem. Erm before we go, go into I've got to introduce myself, business card and the buyer's guide. Buyer's guide tells you that I work for and, and that I'm authorized to discuss 's products only. When I'm going through the recommendations with you. Right. Sorry, do you want to know more? Do I need to know more? Well, no, it's yours to keep, you can read it a at your leisure erm if you've got any problems with that you've got my card and you can ring . Great. Fine. Before we er knuckle down to this list, tell me, how m Knuckle down, what do you want to knuckle down to, business? Before we talk about the er er getting to the purpose of our meeting, erm, how long were you, how did you come to in the first place? I think er of time now what five or six years ago came to presentation . I the time on the , think what they're saying was trying to act . So you could say he recommended you to us? Well he seemed quite keen on the company so . We find that erm, most of our clients are recommended erm you may well have heard the expression we grow big, by being recommended. Can't remember that. You find that building erm er building and business buying our recommendation means we can erm, we don't need to advertise er, rarely need to advertise and the there for the benefits of our clients. Yeah. Erm in areas that erm produce charges erm interest benefits whenever possible. Sorry what do we need to ? Increased bonuses. Oh right, sorry. Er so how does that sound to you, is does that way of building a business sound to you? Erm well it makes sense but I'm, I'm glad you cos I mean my bonuses have gone down, I mean they haven't gone up then why is that? Okay, can I come back to that erm on the bonuses a bit later on? Alright okay yeah. So erm going back do y felt that er mouth to mouth recommendations case you've got that have we? Erm, erm we've found that erm it's helped to build our business and erm in fact we thought it was a good idea er during the course of this conversation that I'm having with you I, I you can introduce others to me. . Erm if and only if you find there's been some real benefits you . Well I'll see what you can do first. get work. Who said I'll answer me up the end and we can see how we go. Yeah fine. Okay. Right, erm the purpose of me being here, why am I here you may ask. Why indeed? Well it's better than telephoning and that we've erm, firstly, I want to say hello, I'm Roger I'm with the your policies. Erm, secondly to introduce you to our new review system whereby we do a complete item review the situation to see how your existing policies are working and how they fit into what you want out of life. Erm during the course of the meeting I'll take a few notes, erm book here. Erm I will take those notes away with me in the strictest confidence, go through them erm work out some recommendations, how you could hit the goals that you will go for at the end of the day. Mm. Erm and come back to you, perhaps in a week's time and you talk me through those recommendations. I found by adapting that approach erm I've been able to help clients in such areas as er tax saving or making their money work that little bit harder for them. Well how would that in the future. If you could make my look, my money work a bit harder it would make sense to me, after all . So, are you happy to proceed Sir? So can you take me thr Oh yes sure. Yeah. Okay good. Erm a few hard facts just to confirm first of all Hard, what's a hard fact? Your name and your address. Oh right. So why are they called hard facts? As opposed to soft facts, soft facts can be something along the lines of what you want out of life er What you're, what you're aiming for in the future? Something could change er whereas a hard fact erm, it's very rarely you're gonna change your name. What? I do. What you've obviously got to why did I mention yeah, you marry, but if something's be down, isn't gonna change. Interest may change but . So if the address changes, is that a soft fact or a hard fact? A good point,I think that's a very good point . I think that's a medium fact. A medium fact,I 'll I'll accept that. Alright then. But, but you ca can see what I'm trying to get at. The facts are gonna be something that, I have to write down here soft facts. There gonna be something that er, as you would tell me about. Really, oh fine, I don't drink That'll be interesting So it was erm Mr ? Yeah. And the first name's Martin. That's right Are you married, Martin? Sorry. You are married and your wife's christian name's okay. The address is obviously . Key to the front door. I spoke to you on the phone at work er have you got your home number? Yeah. Okay erm and you're U K resident, you're Yeah. working here . Your wife? My wife what? She's a U K resident as well. Yes she is yeah. Your date of birth Sir is it the twenty first of August nineteen ? Your wife's date of birth. Er the twenty sixth of the sixth . Okay, now we talked about you and your wife erm you told me that you had two well you've got two kids erm Alex is the eldest, he's nine, er Catherine she's eight Their date of birth. Alex is the third of the third eighty five, Catherine's the . That's Alexander. Yeah Okay So they're at school? Yes. You've got the problems of going through their early life. Are they at private school or public school? It erm school . Right, what are your thoughts on private education? I'm quite happy, I'm quite happy with the er the . You wouldn't be er interested if er you were able to afford perhaps?. No no, I li I think maybe higher education, that would be the first I'm quite happy . To tell you the truth . I'd like to, they may, they may not want to sixteen . Very possibly. Yes okay. Erm health-wise Er have just been in hospital this last three or four years. Three or four years. You Why I had too much . Oh no, just keep calm, that's all. Erm so your, your state of health er have to go to hospital go to the doctor? What do you mean ? Will it create problems? No. No and, and your wife? She's fine. no problems. Right. Do you smoke? Er she does, I don't. How many does she smoke? About five a day . hobbies . Pastimes. Well I do a little bit of yachting. Yachting? Yeah, there's a boating lake nearby in the big white sea as it were down there . what you just go on your own? Well I take my son, he comes with me, he for me. So you're ? Yeah . You've got to join . Oh yes you come in, it's, it's not a membership, you just go along and pay your fees and . Well it on my doorstep and that makes sense to use it, so I sort of wriggle down there and have to keep me out of er Southampton er Boat Show. Mm. Yeah it costs you much No I don't it's just a, a small . erm so you got it ? He won't? catchment is. Is she? Yeah. That's the television? Yes. Afraid so , Don't we all? Okay erm what sort of work do you do?. Erm I'm a Technical Author. Technical Author? hate this . Yeah. diagram make sure you have part of the engine room. Well I do at the . I see you write it up or you draw the pictures? I write yeah. photographs to the drawings, then I write the technical explanation of how artwork that interrelates with each other. Marvellous how they do that. at school I used to trying to do something er er and in any, in any event there are a number of things I tend to miss altogether if I want to er keep to timetable which I and I, I'm sure you're, all the, the audience or group or whatever you like to call it that will welcome an extension of the talk. I usually mention briefly on going into business on your own account, working for yourself, but I'll develop that later that that's one of the things I can dr drop out altogether if w depending on the type of group I'm with. So okay, well we'll make a start and then we've got but my first remarks were a little bit, bit so there we are. I did mention that er I'm a retired tax inspector and I'm very long retired, I've been retired for thirteen years, thoroughly enjoying it, hope you too but your first questions w must be what the devil am I doing thirteen years retired tax inspector talking to you on a technical subject, why on earth can't you get the real thing? The short answer was that when I was working as inspector of taxes I used to give these talks, I was required to give talks . And the revenue got mean and decided it couldn't afford the time of serving officers and it left pre-retirement council and other bodies with a gap to fill er the only other people who are er professional if you like, who could fill it, would be accountants and they weren't available. So they had to pull pa back people like me from retirement. Which is fair enough because one of the things I mentioned about the benefits of er or the things we should try to achieve in retirement or secure in retirement, is that if you've had a challenge in life whilst you're working then for goodness sake don't drop it when you retire. There is still the need for a challenge in life and a sense of responsibility or whatever you like to call it. And I find this challenging, these talks, which is why I wasn't at all sorry to be asked to do so and why I continue to do them and I enjoy giving the, I enjoy meeting people, I meet an awful lot of, of nice people. And I learn quite a lot myself but it does give me that little bit of a challenge that er I think is helpful in retirement. Anyway that's by the way. But it so happens, you might say well all these years retired I can't be much good at the job, you'll be interested to know that I give talks to groups which include retiring tax inspectors. Now you get the odd situation that an old codger like me I'm telling people who are just retiring about er how to deal with income tax in retirement. I mention that not in any boastful sense it's only to reassure you that if I can do that then I, I can't be very much out of giving the wrong gen. I'm pleased to know that myself as well. Okay. So that's the background of why I'm giving this as long retired er tax inspector the mean, my own department has got a bit mean. Now your second question must be where do I get my information from, how do I keep up to date? And oddly enough one of my friends asked me only yesterday when he said what's on your programme for next week, he said how on earth do you keep up to date? I say who's in . And it really isn't eas it really isn't difficult to keep up to date er once you've got the background because although income tax does change it only changes annually, it may well change more frequently changes annually. And this year there's been very little change altogether, you may have noticed that or very little change at all. But I'm able to get quite a lot of information and I'm saying this because you too can get it. And there are a number of publications, one of which I regard as my bible, this is out of date of course, tax saving guide on Which, Which tax saving guide. I could dispense with anything else, everything else, including visits to the tax office which I rarely do except to replace my er brochures and and er things that I send round for information. So with that alone you can keep up to date with income tax. Another one h have you met the magazine Choice? It's aimed at people over fifty. Er pleasure of young parents, your rights, franchise and dental treatment, low cost homes,competition. Investigating the possibilities of work after fifty. Well they do periodically articles on income tax, insurance and investment and they're all done by top of the mill people. Another one which may surprise you, Saga. Send a granny abroad or sex and games abroad. We're still, we're still going, I, I haven't met it yet but . Saga too does excellent investment, income tax and insurance articles from time to time. Thoroughly recommend all, you don't have to be members, we, we are members of the magazine club, because all these are available in local libraries. Er yes, I was going to say something else about Saga. When er I first was introduced to the Saga magazine I read their articles on insurance and I felt that this is, this sounds alright, and we're now covered for insurance through Saga, it's through Lloyds of course, reputable companies, for both the house and the car. You'll be interested to know I've just changed, I've just renewed my insurance policy on my car which is an E reg V W Golf diesel. It's a fully comp, I'm paying a hundred and fifty one pounds. Now I can't touch that anywhere else and I doubt whether anybody else can. Now I'm not selling their services but er er there are some er quite surprising er bonuses to pick up from er being members of this, these er various societies. There's yet another one and I always hesitate to mention this one, Help the Aged, I think it's most, yes? Sorry, can I just come back to the car insurance? Is it for one driver or any driver? No no my wife drives. Yeah. Well I pay three hundred and twelve Yeah. I, I admit I've got a son who's Right. twenty five Yeah. but er nevertheless Mm. Incidentally I always do this and yet I must reassure you that I'm not a Saga representative in anyway, I'm just keen on, on Saga and their facilities. I asked people if th if they would like a complimentary copy of the Saga magazine and all their brochures and they can do so by er, members like myself we're asked from time to time, do we know any friends who would like a copy? So I usually leave a er sheet of paper on the table and if you're, if you're interested in getting a free brochure what I shall do at the end of the course is to send this off er together with one of the cards that they let me have and er in due time you'll get a free Saga magazine. So I'll leave it about if you don't bother if you're not but er I, I, I think that they're er they're very good organizations. We don't now go on the Saga holidays, simply because they er or solely because you need to go down to Gatwick to catch the planes and we're not to doing that East Midlands or . Anyway that's very much by the way. But I was saying about Help the Aged, Check Your Tax. They do some quite remarkably good booklets so don't rip it off by the heading and er nobody regards themselves as aged these days do they? There's an office in town opposite Boots on Parliament Street and there's a great range of leaflets in there on all sorts of things. So please don't be put off by the title, it says Help the Aged, I ain't going in there! Just have a browse and have a look in and see what's . Right, now I mustn't be seen to be indicating in any way that er you don't have to bother with it all , because they too put all out some excellent er booklets, brochures I've got two thick pads of them which I'll let you circulate. just to see what's available. you'll be surprised what's available in the . And the changes in my day when, when I was working, we'd have some leaflets but they were written in a very er sort of technical way. These are, they really are good. The er you'll be interested I think, those of you who've not met the er independent taxation changes that have come about, there's a great booklet a great series of books on er independent taxation about people who are considering working for themselves there's some booklets. So the revenue themselves do er a really good information service and if you go into any tax office, you don't have to go to the counter, there's often a queue or you get this little card system which, number system you're, you're next. All these booklets are o on display just inside the general office, Right, now another way contact my is in Cardiff, I know yours isn't up to local or if no it isn't it Mine is local but I don't know what will happen when I've retired . Ah yes I yes I, I mean local. Yeah,the superannuation, I've mentioned the, the er Paymaster General, which basically . So my, my tax office is in Cardiff, now the quick way in to your tax office, where ever it is, and if it changes, is you get the telephone number, you get the reference room of Salaries or Pension Department, you ring your tax office, quote your name, the tax office reference although that's n these days isn't important but you must quote your national insurance number, by doing that you get put through to the person who presses a button and says, oh yes you're Mr or Mrs so-and-so,what can I tell you? It's like this commercial organization when you ring up don't you? They say oh yes sir we know all about you we've got . Well you can do that by simply quoting your name, national insurance number to your own tax office. And er if it's more convenient, if you've got er a lengthy inquiry, call into any tax office, the nearest one, I've even called into tax offices when we've been away for a weekend, just to pick up brochures and things like that. Er well not in any weekend because they would be closed, wouldn't they? But I've called into other tax offices and they too can get on their video screen y th your history from your tax office. And then they're, they're fully au fait with all your affairs and talk to you quite sensibly. That's quite interesting, Bernard, as an ex tax inspector you go away and worry about your income tax over the weekend like we do. No, well you're right except that I find it more convenient to replace my booklets if I'm in er Cardiff on my weekend when I happen to pass a tax office I pop in, replace them. Okay that's, that's enough about that. Right I mentioned about er about questions, fire away as, as you think about it. Now the first main subject if you like or part subjects is personal allowances because they affect everything that er I'm going to say. Now you may know all about personal allowances or you may think you know all about personal allowances and I thought like that. But they have changed in the last few years and there are some quite significant elements about personal allowances that you ought to know about, one of which is independent taxation, and this talk is actually personal allowances and independent taxation. Now independent taxation, as you may know, came in, we're now in ninety three four, I've only just altered the heading because very little else has changed and I'm a lazy so and so I can't rewrite it just for the heading. The previous year was ninety two ninety three, the year that's just gone. The previous year to that, ninety one ninety two, there was a change in the income tax regulations, affecting married women, only married women, everybody is the same, stayed the same. In, prior to ninety one ninety two which is three years prior to now, a married woman was entitled to the same as that, it was, they didn't call it basic allowance, the same amount only if she was married of course and working, it had to be earned income. And if a married woman in her own right had investment income, she'd got money in a building society or a bank or what have you Morning! Then, and no earnings, she didn't qualify for an allowance at all, because investment income, then, was her husband's. A married woman's investment income, prior to ninety one ninety two, was her husband's not hers. But from ninety one ninety two onwards a married woman was entitled to an allowance in her own right, and it still mystifies me knowing Mrs Thatcher was in office for all those years, why it took so long for this to happen,. So ninety one ninety two a married woman was entitled to a basic personal allowance of three four four five which could be set against any income erm or investment. And the change now means that if a married woman, it doesn't, as I say, it doesn't affect single women, if a married woman now hasn't earned income using all her allowances, so she doesn't work hasn't worked, never qualified for a pension, or does work but doesn't earn more than that, and the couple have got investment income then it's sensible to switch that into the wife's name to give her income to use up her allowances. Because otherwise the investment income stays with the husband, taxed at his rate which could be forty , and they're therefore wasting the balance of allowances, the wife's allowances. Or if a wife was earning, working or had a pension and did use her allowances, but the husband was paying forty percent, the same switch of investments, transferring income to the wife, even though it was chargeable at twenty percent or twenty five, was relieving the husband's forty percent. Or down the scale again, the husband could be paying twenty five percent and the wife twenty percent, and they could switch investments between the two. Or between wife and husband, we tend to think only of transfer from husbands to wife, but er we do meet quite er a w er ladies who've got quite high earnings and they themselves are paying forty percent in which case they should make sure that any investment income of theirs is transferred to the husband, so as to get the, to either use up allowances that are not being used at all because of absence of the income, or to benefit from these different rates of tax. They might run off and take it with them. Well this is the risk you have to take but er, and it's a, it's a profit at this stage where er people are coming up to receiving lump sums in retirement and wonder how best to invest it, well seems to me there's no better investment than to, than to put it into tax free sources that you have available to you. Now when I say transfer assets to er a wife it will also if you've got a joint account. It may, may be in the husband's sole name and maybe his lump sum on retirement would otherwise be going into his own account oh and they may say put it into a joint account. Now with joint accounts the revenue regards the income as being shared equally, whether or not the capital was put in equally the, the revenue says interest on a joint account is equally shared. And it may well be that an equal share of interest doesn't achieve the best result. So if you've got an account in a husband's name and it would be better in a wife's name, close the account. If you've got a joint account look to see whether closure and transfer of the asset into the wife's name will give you a better result. It's no good saying to the revenue well half of it er my wife has half of this account therefore I'm not regarding it as mine. It has to be an account in the wife's name, it has to be a genuine transfer to a wife so that there's no doubt about it but it is a on her account. But you can see that er for someone who has no, a wife who has no income and her husband's paying twenty five percent or forty percent then by moving a, say er twenty thousand at erm well er whatever percentage to fill up these allowances er if you're getting ten thousand or twenty thousand put, put it into the wife's name that they give us the interest is then hers, if she has no other income it neatly can be swallowed up by the allowance. Does anyone have to pay any tax say on building society? Well on building society in that your building society are have change too in ninety one two at the same time. Prior to ninety one two when independent taxation came in banks and building societies were just taxed at source, as it is today. But you couldn't get that tax back, whatever your circumstances were. An odd situation, don't quite know why, there are nu numerous odd situations in here er in income tax, there's nothing fair about income tax at all. And building society, anybody who has a building society account prior to ninety one two if they hadn't income really i they were silly to have money in the building society account because they were having tax deducted but couldn't get it back and at the same time as the independent taxation they changed the er tax system for building societies and banks which meant that banks and building societies were then deducted tax at the standard rate of twenty five percent and it could be refunded or repaid or not deducted in certain circumstances, so back to your question, anybody who has money in a building society now, or isn't taxable, should ask the building society not to deduct tax, as they're entitled to do, fill a form and, and where people can state that they don't, they're not liable to pay tax, building societies and banks will not now deduct income tax. And you'll be And that's a mar that is a married couple? That's for a married couple, but er anybody who hasn't income, single person, children! Children, particularly our own grandchildren I discovered er had got money in the building societies I mean we give them money for presents and throw it into a building society, and I said what's happening about your, your tax? What tax? You know and then they realize that er in showing a building society account they just showed the interest after deduction of tax. And they n have now claimed exemption, so any child or any person who hasn't got income using up all their basic allowances should apply to banks or building societies not to deduct their tax Could could I just ask Yes? if you've, you've not already opted for individual er taxation er and you decide to do so after retirement how, how do I go about doing that, I mean does, does i if I invest er a lump sum in my wife's name, we've got to have opted for individual No. taxation have we? No. No, there's no such thing as individual taxation. Th well what I meant was er what did I mean? I'm not sure. Independent? Independent taxation. Independent taxation. Well ind all independent taxation is, it isn't an option, it simply means that a wife from ninety one two is independent of her husband for all tax purposes. Oh right. That's all automatic is it? Automatic. Oh right, right you see yeah And from that day never think about these things. from that day a wife's Right. a wife's income is not included in her husband's return. Right. You do not now show your wife's Right. income. She is required to have an inc a return of her own. Right so I don't need to do anything for that? You don't need to do anything, you simply, you simply move your money into an account in your wife's name. In me wife's name. Gives her income and it's balanced by her allowances and if you move not sufficient to, for the income to exceed that then at the same time it goes into a bank or building society you apply for them not to deduct income. Right you just fill a form in? At the building society or the bank or ? You just fill a form in. Yeah. Building societies and bank, and further Thank you. further to that, I don't know whether anybody's got a recent notice of coding, I did. Can you help someone to get your tax back? They're asking me! Can I help someone to get my tax back. The revenue is so desperate now because of this change in banks and building societies have left people not knowing what the situation is, and er there are millions, I'm, I'm not exaggerating there are twelve million, over two million pounds is being spent by the revenue on a new tax-back advert, sorry I did exaggerate, the idea is to remind about ten million people on all, on low income, that they could claim back tax which has been deducted from taxed savings. And it is men and women, people on low income and children, you know your, so bear in mind your own children and grandchildren, if they haven't got income up to three four four five, tell them to watch this deduction of tax from banks or building societies. There are also these privatization a lot of husbands and wives bought these shares of privatization had it in joint names, well that tax will have been deducted and can be reclaimed also, so er this was a change that came about with independent taxation. Have I dealt with that ? Er, interest rates are going up and down Yeah. If y you,s say that the wife's income i is, is three, four hundred erm and interest rates go up and then you go over, Over. what happens then? Well the, the er official answer is that you will be authorized to uprate the value of all . It's quite simple, save the revenue billions of pounds in er overtime payments over the years, but that's what they are. there's a great range of them, all sorts of different letters er merely er categorizing certain types of person. Anyway back to main point, so up to retirement quite straightforward, no problem at all and this is why he could have gone on for donkey years without a return of income, his salary goes up of course, it's picked up in the tax tables, his personal allowances don't change so they could swan along there for so many years without even looking at his affairs, but then see what happens in the very next tax year, when he hasn't had a return and may not get a return for a couple of years. In this case he has and they've an and conveniently of course for this example it's all been put into, into a statement. Now he's become sixty five so as you remember he qualifies for the larger age allowances, he qualifies for the larger married couples allowance, so his total allowances are of course considerably increased by the fifteen hundred pounds. But then he had no adjustments to make here, he'd no other income to collect but here he's got three sources of income to be collected out of his on the pension only. So in the first case they've given him, the first place they've given him six six six five allowances but then they pull back the total of those three. It effectively charges it because if you've got six thousand allowances and you withdraw that amount putting it against the total income it means that you're actually paying tax on those by deduction. But that's how the revenue works out how t t to collect income where it can't operate a separate pay as you earn coding system, it withdraws some of the allowances and effectively charges tax. So straight away you see what's happened in this case his code becomes two eighty one H whereas previously we've got quite a high code and yet his total income is er not er comparative to the change in code numbers and this is what has that effect, that all that tax on all this income has to be collected against his works pension, thereby causing a lot of confusion and difficulty for er people becoming retired. And as I say that is er fairly straightforward. Now on to this business of a part time job. If you are w going to work part time or full time in most cases there would be a separate coding for it, in this particular example it's an employment where they don't operate pay as you earn,i if, use my old phrase no longer applicable I suppose, a corner shop. If someone were to work part time for a corner shop keeper who had no other employees there would be no way of collecting tax at that employment. But of course if he worked for Raleigh where they've got a vast labour force a vast pay as you earn scheme then any income would be taxed by Raleigh as a subsidiary source so there would be another code number there, they would actually be collecting tax at two sources, but they would still need to allocate allowances, it may well be that, at Raleigh for example, they've covered that by allowances in which case they pull back five hundred pounds there to collect. Or they may have charged the five hundred at twenty five percent in which case they needn't then make any adjustment on his code. But you can see, whatever they do it is still an adjustment within that same basic outline. Still this little bit of involvement at a time when you think life is going to be much simpler. So this is why I emphasize the fact that when you become retired your circumstances are all always going to change for the worse as far as adjustments are concerned. So use the opportunity, get a return, make them take a good look at you and then you know you're alright and can go on for another couple of years and make them look at you again. Okay watching time cos it's amazing how much time goes. I mentioned erm benefits of er of exempt income and I showed er a feature with this and I apologize that the fact that's it's TESSA but I do this with TESSA because it's the one way that you can illustrate the point I want to make. And National Savings and TESSA, some of them, not all, they operate this compound interest factor, now you all know what is, what compound interest is, it's, you get interest on interest. But the advantage of the er tax exempt bit is that with these you start getting interest on tax that you haven't payed,. This is what happens with tax exempt sources and by looking at a TESSA and assuming you pay the maximum each year which are those figures and assuming that the interest rate stays at seven and a half percent, it won't but it's seven and a half percent at the moment, then this is what happens, at the end of the first year you've put in your three thousand your interest at seven and a half percent is two twenty five and you would otherwise pay tax at fifty six at twenty five percent or twenty or forty which would be those figures, but you don't. But because you don't that amount hasn't been withdrawn from that two twenty five, so that in the next year you put in your eighteen hundred and at the end of that year you get interest on three thousand eight hundred and of course the two twenty five which happens to be three seventy seven, so at that second year you start getting interest on the fifty six pounds that you haven't been required to pay. And this is what happens with this, as the years proceed you're getting interest on the previous year's interest which includes the tax that you would otherwise, that would otherwise have gone from your account in paying into income tax. So that at the end of the five years, assuming you've paid the maximum stake at seven and a half percent, you would, otherwise you would receive the nine thousand back of course, and at that rate you would receive two six seven one and that will include, if you're a twenty five percent payer, six hundred and sixty seven that you would have otherwise lost in, that would have gone out in tax. Or if you're forty percent you would have actually paid a thousand and sixty seven, but because you didn't pay that because it's tax exempt you actually gained that amount of interest on the tax that stayed in with your account. So the advice is, and I'm not an investment advisor, it's because of the exemption you must always take advantage of all tax exempt forms of savings before you look at anything else. You really should because you, you get those advantages. Not with all National Savings, there are some that don't a apply the compound interest factor, you get the interest at the end on the sum that you put in at the beginning. It's where you get the interest on interest throughout the years and would otherwise pay tax on that interest and don't and the amount that you haven't paid stays in and gets the compounding the same as the interest. right in thinking you can only have one TESSA? You can, indeed, only have the one TESSA. Husband and wife can have two accounts. And you don't need to put in the whole amount, but then if you don't put in the whole amount or you withdraw the net interest which you're entitled to do then you're pulling away the build-up aren't you? You're stopping the, you're stopping it building up. Hello shan't be long just in time for a cuppa. If you've missed a year can you put in twice the amount the following year? Er For instance if you've missed your eighteen hundred on year two, if you put in three thousand six hundred that's a good question I don't know, I don't know. I think the answer is no, because it closes whatever the anniversary of the day you started, that's the year. Yes. If you start the twenty fourth of April Right. it goes to the twenty fourth of April next year Twenty fourth of April. and then it you on that day. Just noticed on my little notice the shop. Did you know that there's a building society shop in Nottingham? And it enables you to call in there and they will give you th the details of the best building society rates throughout the country. It's a shop, they sell building society information and they will invest for it. But er you can call in and they Where is it? It's on . It's the building society shop, they will tell you what the rates are and what are the best rates. You can say well I want to do, put my money so and so, what's the best rate for me? Or er er understand I'm not entirely certain about that, they do the same with, they will tell you which are the, which are paying the best TESSA rates. have to be careful because I'm not an investment advisor, I'm simply talking about the benefits of the tax exemption. If that happens to be investment advice well then so be it. Okay quick question. ever so quickly. We can, we can have any further in s sorry, we can have any further during the conclusion session which is, this is where we tend run on, okay? Small business you're setting up as self employed Yeah. could we talk about that some time? I'll do i shall I do it conclusion? Later? Yes. I'm, I'm run out of time now because I intended to make now erm erm short of time. But the, the afternoon session conclusion one is, as far as I can see, is to do this where we fit, where we're able to fit in subjects that er we missed, so certainly we'll fit it in on the, on the later session. I really did want to talk about being in business on your own account as opposed to er working for an employer. Okay. They're good to watch something like this . Even might be blocking them . Tough rule, to bowl to the er new batsman Mahammama, that's his first delivery and he stands rather quickly at that one down on the leg stump, runs away off the pad, there's a shout, I think more of anguish from Tufnell than er conviction. Well all the Sri Lankan batsmen seem pretty good at adopting the tactic of sticking the pad down at the back follow somewhere after it. Oh they loved that, yes and er, that one's played with a bat, to off and there's no run. Bill to your rescue once more. Erm, five foot three and a half. Feeling more like Alaska,. Almost like er and just in case you haven't anything about , out comes the end sheet as a plays it too. Silly point and there's run, now what have we got on , five feet ten, he's a veritable giant. Trained over here with Mill Hill Cricket Club, that's stuck a bit by er Tufnell and I think we might say that beat in the air, his attempted sweep failed completely. No run, still a hundred and eleven for three. That means an insurance manager. Tufnell bowls, quickly, flatter, and that whistles through outside the off stump, ooh, groans and shouts of disappointment all around the wicket there, echoed by Victor Marks, yeah, yeah in the box. yet to get off the mark. Tufnell bowls and there's a shout again as that goes near diving silly point's right hand, and there's no run, a hundred and eleven for three still. Had a very, very good over from Bill Tufnell there, it's always a bit tricky when you come on to bowl and it's turning and it's a long day ahead and you, you're expected to get hissed and you expect to get hissed, and you can get very impatient when they don't come, but he's got one now, he's got , now he's bowled well all morning now, he's bowled almost for an hour, but he's got that one wicket and he, that over was full of confidence, he tossed one up, misjudged the length and got into a bit of a tangle and then he bowled a quicker one which tried to cut, he then misjudged the pace and he could off nick it to the,a very, very good over and he's bowling with, with great confidence at the moment. Lewis taking over from the greatest at the pavilion er Lawrence and er, first time we've seen Lawrence this morning, and on the subject of frustration Victor which you were just airing then, did you by any chance see Tony Locke at er Old Trafford when Laker took his . Er no. It was terrible to behold. I, I was only one at the time. Oh, I'm so sorry. You wouldn't have noticed much about it. Here's Lawrence, first time in action today, bowls a ball full length and very stylishly indeed, DaSilva plated off and there's no run. Yeah. That is the other thing, when the ball is turning and your partner is turning it mild and getting wickets. Yes. And you're doing your utmost at the other end straining, trying even harder and harder, the harder you try often the worse it gets . That's right , but Locke was turning it on, on occasion and and just couldn't strike at all, except for the one wicket, if he bowled quicker and quicker he might have been in trouble. A hundred and eleven for three still. As Lawrence bowls to DaSilva. Cool. And that's a beamer, and DaSilva is, stifled in the extreme, it's a no ball, now whether that was because it was a beamer I think, but we don't know whether it's overstretched or not as far as footwork was concerned, it brought a run down to square leg anyway, and er DaSilva is now eighteen, total a hundred and twelve for three.. No, no I think it's just that er,then your sorts of signs I think to indicate that, that was a no ball because it was, I'm sure an unintentional er beamer and er, they still did well really to get a bit of back on here so . Slipped out of the hand quite obviously that, it wasn't a deliberate beamer we must add that, that's went out today,thirty-four, here's Lawrence, bowls outside the off stump and the new batsman who is not yet off the mark, lets it go through to the wicket keeper. Hampshire who's been er umpiring at point now trots back to square leg because the point area is becoming rather heavily populated at the moment with a very square gully and er an even squarer point, cover point. Er Lewis and Ramprakash there, so the umpire's view is somewhat impeded, Lawrence in from the pavilion end, bowls to , oh the full length, and he's off the mark with four, steers that down to deep third man, there is no deep third man, and er he indulges in a little token trot to the other end, but no one was going to chase that or, or stop it by any stretch of imagination, four, the total a hundred and sixteen for three. And David quite got his bearings right, full toss that one, I've, I've been watching this summer this slope at Lord's can play havoc with bowlers and I always get the impression that er, he's, he bowls better than the nursery end at Lord's, David Lawrence. Hm, hm. But, Tufnell of course must have precedence there at the moment. Oh absolutely, yes. Here's Lawrence, bowls and that's a full length again, but it's down the leg side, glances it very delicately, it's a good throw from Tufnell, well a quick throw from Tufnell, it lands in the middle of the pitch in actual fact, but they have to hurry for the two runs now, one hundred and eighteen for three wickets now and is six, DaSilva eighteen. He thinks he's found a friend, in the score box, he keeps waving in that direction. What's that? No ball, or one short or. No, I guess checking on the number of balls left in the over I think. Oh, oh well. Cos he's lost the . That doesn't often happen. Yes. All kinds of signals going up there to the score board. Lawrence in again, bowls, ooh, and has a bit of trouble with this one, gets it on the bottom of the bat from which it bobbles away, it's a short leg, and there's no run. And er, I shouldn't really have started this over because Lawrence takes so long to go through it, erm, find Johnson waiting,think it right. Signals to the dressing room, see what comes of that. One one eight for three,out today for thirty-four. Lawrence bowling the last ball of this over and it's a bouncer and gets underneath it, he's six, DaSilva is eighteen, it's a hundred and eighteen for three and after a word for big it will be Brian Johnston. Have to tell you about Henry Hall of Hampshire. Well as usual when er David Lawrence comes into the attack things start to happen, in this case, we had a beamer, a boundary, and a bouncer. Plenty variety wasn't it? Yeah. Dicky agreed a signal, I can't, you haven't heard before, he lost two of his little erm. Oh dear. Things he keeps, erm, little barrels, he keeps er number of balls, he's had to put two pound coins in his pocket instead, and I think that's put him off, anyhow he got it right. One hundred and eighteen for three, which means thirty-nine runs added in the first hour today and it's Tufnell coming up now to bowl,DaSilva, up he comes, bowls this one, DaSilva pushes forward and it just goes under the bat and fielded there by the wicketkeeper, no run. Russell pretty good figures, this is er fifteenth over, two for seventeen, eight maidens, giving the one wicket that goes field him for thirty-four and he comes up again, that little hop and bowls to DaSilva goes down the pitch, tips this one up to mid-on, but er won't get one as figure Lawrence is there to stop it, so no run, to play to sixteen overs, seven twenty eight. This is Lawrence's, er Lawrence seven overs, nought to thirty-four and we haven't seen from Lewis yet. Tufnell bowling from the end, round the wicket with a five, four field,that one er just ugly-looking thing there er DaSilva just thrusts his leg out about side leg stump of the ball and hit the pads and goes up. They, they brought a fielder from the offside to sort of short square leg to stop him I suppose sweeping and that's why he, he played that ugly padding shot there. Yes, while attempting to hit him with a bat. Here is Tufnell coming up again, bowls over and outside the off stump, and that one goes to Robin Smith, and he's hit somewhere on the boot and ricochets off down the pitch. It was a a well pitched up ball, I like, I like love Tufnell when he gives it a bit of a, on the off stump. He's got his five fielders there, four on the leg side at the moment, so saved, er long leg as well, bowls this one and that again he thrust forward that front pad and DaSilva, and Stewart comes in from mid wicket to field it. A hundred and eighteen for three and the asking rate of the start of the day was er three point six two over, it must have deteriorated from the point of Sri Lanka. It was three point eight five a couple of overs ago. It must have, er haven't got all that worse then, here's Tufnell comes up again, slightly faster than the other one, hits him on the pad or bit of that pad maybe, Robin Smith's very close in there and once or twice he's dived, he's never quite sure whether off the pad or off bat and pad, everybody shouts at him poor chap, anyhow, catch it, a hundred and eighteen for three end of that one from Tufnell so he's now bowled fifteen overs, two for seventeen that one was yet another maiden. And he's bowling very well, he's opposing, opposing all sorts of problems, but he's also getting frustrated because of er the batsman technique of going down the pitch putting his left pad in line with the ball and then letting his back hover behind that left leg and quite rightly my view, Tufnell keeps appealing when this happens, and Jack Hampshire keeps saying not out. What, what it's frustrating for a slow bowler is that if the batsman put his left pad down the wicket and held his bat up in the air, clearly not playing his shot for all to see, then I'm sure that we, you know, it, the batsman be given out L B W quite frequently, but because the bat is hovering just behind that left pad erm, he's never given out. It's a lament. Yes, it's a . Of old, and Young's a slow bowler. Yes, I think they get treated rather tough don't they, I think the batsmen take advantage of the, of the always be in the umpire's mind and he's got to be certain. Lawrence runs away from us now, comes in to bowl to and that one he lets go outside is the right pronunciation, you giggle, you look at the B B C pronunciation. I think you've put on one too many syllables. I said didn't I? You carried on too long. I don't think I did at all Dennis. and I shall stick the B B C pronunciation. Yeah, disgusting, you as in run that's right . That's right , you, thank you we've got the B B C crib there haven't you. Well, well thank you for the supporting me Victor, that snort came from the bearded one there. got back to his mark and we're going to have three slips, Lewis gone to join the slips, so it's er three slips and the gully, as waits for this one, packing were the up comes Lawrence now past Dickie Bird, bowls to him, well pitched up and he played a rather streaky stroke really, and he turns it away down to square Tufnell is down there, fields the ball, throws back quite nicely, he fielded very well, let's say that and one run goes on the total, er so that at the moment three hundred and four runs are needed and it's about three point nine seven the required rate. Three hundred and four runs more needed, it's quite a target this isn't it? Well realistically it's out of the question. It is isn't it? And of course DaSilva erm, not flashing those strokes round like he did on that first innings er, playing a very sensible innings from the point of view of Sri Lanka, but his erm, haven't seen many of his flashing strokes. No. Strengthen leg side field for him now. There's a deep mid wicket, a deep square leg, a backward point, a backward square, er short leg and a forward short leg and the mid-on. Lawrence catch behind and he's given out. Caught down the leg side, he wasn't going to walk, he waited for umpire Bird, and that's the Lawrence delighted with England of course too, DaSilva, caught down the leg side, a good catch there by Russell and Sri Lanka now a hundred and nineteen for four and DaSilva is out caught Russell, bowled Lawrence for eighteen. Ninety one balls and one four, and not a typical DaSilva innings and one does wonders whether in the end it might have been better for Sri Lanka to play at a more natural game. Yes, it may be, I mean in fact he he was some problems by Gooch because he, Gooch put a man at deep sort of mid wicket or square leg another one back there to stop him hooking. Yeah. And he showed him firstly he's a wonderful hooker Gooch, he also had two choices , he had two short legs there as well. Yep. And Lawrence whether he meant to or not banged the ball in short, er round about leg stump, he sort of half went to glances didn't he? I think he just flicked his glove. I tell you what, erm, I've got to revise my bit in of Gooch's, I'm such an admirer of him and everything, I haven't, I would have thought he was a brilliant strategist, I think during this summer he's really begun to read the batsmen erm, strengths and failures and and set the field. Yeah , well he's certainly prepared to do er, make a few unorthodox field placements and that was a very strange field that Lawrence had. Yes. And when someone goes out, erm, playing a little hesitantly, you can't, you know, you have to give the, the England team credit for, for posing some unusual problems. It's, I mean he played very well DaSilva I think, but in a completely different mode to the first innings, he was purely set on trying to save the game, trying to battle with , I think he didn't bowl very well, hadn't bowled very many short balls in the day and that was perhaps the first one he's had to receive and er he was caught in two minds really. You do take a long time to come out has not reached the non strikers and er, some said he had a little reading from who . I suppose they're waiting with their pads on are they? Well I don't know, but it, it is a long way down, people who don't know Lord's, you have to come down from, er and er perhaps they're not quite ready, but it is there must have taken, I don't,next time perhaps put the clock on it, but this must be a three minute or three and a half minute. Two and a half minutes since the wicket gone. Have you, technically, presumably erm, Gooch could appeal, you can be timed out if you're not on the, on the field by that time, but then of course you've got another erm eighty yards or so to walk to up to the far end. Are you, it is difficult to cross at Lord's, er, I mean it is as you say, it's quite a trek from the er, from whichever dressing room you're in, down the steps, through the Long Room, there's always someone coming the wrong direction then. There's Lawrence now, a left-hander, down to the rear and this one he turns away and it goes straight to short leg and erm, everybody claps up and sits there well, well fielded there by Morris at short leg. comes along, it's a tremendous support, I'd love to be a bowler on England's side cos you get clapped for an whatever happens. . got clapped for the beamer did he? No, probably not. , and I, I, think we must assume, that, that, he was no ball because he was a beamer and not because of front foot . I , I think so, because oh it's still difficult to interpret Dickie's stipulations sometimes, but he was waving his hands towards the scorer . Yeah, but he doesn't have , he doesn't have to be noted in the score book, that he was no balled for a, for a beamer, but out of interest perhaps he was letting him er, so Giles there, there, left-hander, played some lovely strokes in the first innings, wasn't in for long, then Shaw goes down on his knees there up and outside the old stump, he's playing backwards, the ball goes through to Russell. By the way the lot of seemed to be played in Hertfordshire these days, and one of the great days is at Harpenden and that's on September the first on Sunday, when they have their annual single-wicket competition, and that's a great local event and it's bound to encourage all the young cricketers in the neighbourhood, they're trying to make up for the lack of cricket in schools, so well done Harpenden and that is on Sunday next, er, er, first of September and I'll give you the time in a minute if I can find it, when it is, it doesn't say, but it's probably all day at the Harpenden club, well done Harpenden encouraging young people to play cricket, Sunday first September. Here is Lawrence, bowls this one on the leg stump, push there, the short play, fielded by Morris and that's a wicket er that was eighteen, DaSilva a hundred and sixteen minutes and he only had one four and if we remember his first innings when he scored forty-two, with seven fours and he was in only for that, thirty-something minutes, was it? Thirty-seven minutes, er a contrast and erm well. You may be right. I don't know. I think, he didn't look natural did he . No, I mean, England have bowled much better at him and Tufnell's for example is, is very difficult to get away because it is spinning a little bit and I'm sure that they, the England bowlers must have said to themselves, we're not going to bowl a lot of short balls at, at we must keep it full length, erm, and so part of this slow score is due to better England bowling. Tufnell's sixteenth over, there you've just pushed it out and a number er Lewis coming in from backward point. This is his sixteenth over, two for seventeen with nine maidens so far, bowling from the far end, the nursery end with a cluster of fielders, you've got a silly point and a short leg and a slip and he's got er, at the moment four men on the leg side as he's had most of the time and five on the off, and now a slight adjustment, we're gonna have an extra one around the batsman. Lewis is coming up to very close backward point, a silly point we have Smith, a short leg we have Morris so there are a good wicketkeeper and the slip both with hands on hips, are five men round the batsman and a mid-on, a long leg, mid-off, cover and the point and Tufnell false run, erm stops in his run, John Hampshire signals no delivery and they start again, a hundred and nineteen for four at the moment the score. And waits for this one from Tufnell, pushes forward, and it's hit on his pad outside the off stump possibly, loud appeals from everybody, there's a rather high-pitched vocals, I think we've got some young people in or a lot of ladies today. Anyhow there were, the shouts were appealing from the I should think about two thousand, five hundred people in the ground here. Entry was eight pounds today or four pounds for O A Ps and young people, Tufnell comes in now, past John Hampshire, and that one slightly faster one and edge away and was fielded by a falling Lewis at that backward point position, both in there let slip and er I don't think any of the batsmen, I think er not happy at all against Tufnell, er in, remember his very good figures at the Oval and now he's following up with some very steady bowling here, with the pitch does help him. This one now, er again hits him Mahammama on the pad, trickles out on the off side and Goch picks it up from extra cover. Gooch the general who's been switching the field around as to suit each batsman. Tufnell now, with just the three men on the leg side, six on the off, up he comes, bowls this one, tossing it up and driven straight back by ,goes straight up to Lawrence mid-off and there's no run resulting from that. So the two men out today,bowled Tufnell for thirty four and DaSilva caught Russell bowled Lawrence for eighteen, the wickets fell at hundred and eleven, not a hundred and nineteen, remind you of the start of this seventy-nine for two. Now one hundred and nineteen for four, Tufnell bowls this one, forward goes and the ball trickles up towards and another maiden over so now they've had sixteen overs, ten maidens for seventeen and er I think in the old days you would have been quite proud of those figures erm Victor. I would have been thrilled to bits. . I see, I mean it's good to see really that er test match has been dom well almost dominated at the moment, by, by a slow bowler, it's an ideal situation for in England, batsmen done their job, England are in command, got lots of runs to play with, but it's definitely the left arm spinner who's causing the, the greatest problem out there, he's, he's landing it in the right place, he likes variation in that over, confident enough looks very tempted, always very difficult to come in at first twenty minutes as a batsman, when you've come in on a turning wicket, a very, very, difficult. Well he's got six for twenty-five at the Oval so he's doing well in his test career, but it's Lawrence now to bowl for the left-handed , who pushes that one back down the pitch, gets plenty of time. Thank you bowlers, six for twenty-five and then a slight contrast, one for a hundred and fifty, but he bowled a great many overs, that's er, he's proving a very useful addition to the the England side and he's being used erm very sensibly by Gooch. It's also good I think for, for cricket in general that he's got a pitch that helps him a bit on the fifth day and that's how it should be. Yeah , course I mean as a bat er pitched a bat on this is a beau a beauty but are there are rough spots which you've helping the slow left arm, or help any spinner. So waits now as Lawrence comes up and bowls to him and this, oooh off the edge and that's going down up towards the third man, going over the ropes down the far end and and that's one boundary there off the edge at one hundred and thirteen for four, Lawrence won't be to happy about that, but it happens to all fast bowlers. One twenty three for four which makes the erm, the target now exactly erm three hundred. Three hundred. Balls being collected, we've got erm three slips and the two gullies still. Three point nine six is the asking rate, we've got three seventy five at er, seventy five overs after this one. Away goes Lawrence, rumbling away from us now steams up his run waits and ducks, but it goes over the back of his neck through to Russell, no run. I'm not sure if David Lawrence is the type of bowler worries about getting nicked before hit before, it happens pretty frequently, he's such an, an, an attacking bowler. No, it's bound to happen. All he's worried about is getting wickets, and he's, as I think I said yesterday he starts to feel a bit frustrated with his lax control, the ball flows all over the place and then somehow or other he's got at the, the real quality batsmen in the opposition side, he's got DaSilva out, might have been a slightly lucky dismissal caught down the leg side and he's got him out and he's done that in every match he's played, he's given away runs pretty rapidly, but he keeps getting vital wickets as well. Well he's running up now, see what he can do with this one,ooh, over second slip down to the four runs another one has slip and a leap , like Botham and erm, away he went. He might be a bit less philosophical about that one , in that it was, it was great, it was catchable wasn't it? Indeed, well I suppose it was, I did it, I don't think he got a catch did he Botham, he's given a leap in the air and he's now on his knees explaining what's happened. Well it went very, very quickly. Terribly fast, it was er, er, over his left shoulder going down there like a rate of knots and he's now telling the other slips, putting his left hand showing where it might have gone. Anyhow it's four runs for who is now eight, and he's made them both in four, but, his two fours, eight, when you get three fours, two fours I think and a three in his first innings of eleven. Away goes Lawrence now living dangerously pushes this one forward, that's a better stroke, goes square on the off side to the nearer to the two gullies, fielded by Robin Smith. just one other cricket match, again I said in Hertfordshire, this one's at Ashwall near Baldock, and their cricket club's long way ahead in fact, but it's erm, twenty first September, but we shan't have time to talk about it before two o'clock and it's in aid of the garden hospice at Letchworth, a very worthy cause that, and John Emburey's taking a, a Middlesex eleven against the Cherubs who are the local team, John runs them down there, so that er, that is at Ashwall, two o'clock start twenty first September, have a look at John Emburey and his Middlesex eleven, all in a good, good cause, and the Cherubs watch them as well. Here is Lawrence bowls this one, oh . Wonder why he took his bat up just away I don't know. Went through to Russell and certainly a good overlap from Lawrence his score is eight runs , so a hundred and twenty seven for four and now describing play for the next twenty minutes we've got John Adnew. He's bowling with considerable pace there, did Lawrence, that wicket's cheered him up and he was rushing in, he's got his line right, round that off stump and plays a bit of a open face anyway, so those in the slip Gordon beware and the one that did get an edge, it flew through, both Ian Botham who's at second and Graham Gooch, they both stand pretty close, they work on the theory that it's better to drop them then to have them bouncing in front of you, but they could have been about five yards deeper in that, the one, that, that went flying through with the character. Very quick ball indeed, here's Tufnell, resuming from the nursery end, tossing the ball into his left hand, he's now to bowl to , who's down the pitch driving to Lawrence there's no run. . It's a fascinating contest between Tufnell and particularly another right-hander who's found him very difficult indeed. He's having all sorts of problems outside the off . Three men catching on the off side, a slip, gully and silly point. There's Tufnell again passed on by John Hampshire, bowling in sweeps that, he gets it away very fine indeed, he's running right underneath us here, he gets to the ball now, you can almost hear his footsteps, past the and a good return, and has two . Brings him to nine, a hundred and twenty nine for four. Some chanting from left, and Dennis and Sri Lankans contingents haven't given up hope. Here's facing Tufnell, sweeps again, but he doesn't make contact this time, the ball goes through Jack Russell's leg who now have a bye, Ian Botham moves from slip takes off his psychedelic sunglasses and Graham's to throw to Russell. Now this contest I'm looking forward too, it's young left-hander who plays all manner of strokes, where the superb hundred at Hove last weekend, and er, tucked in particularly since Salisbury the leg spinner, on a short leg side boundary and it was similar situation today. Let's see if he does, he comes Chapel now, to bowl to him and he hoicks that away on that leg side, that's the area you're gonna try and hit it, that's four runs,anywhere near it, so making intentions plain, he's going for that leg side boundary, that was a real power shot, hit with a spin, this is exactly the way he played at Hove, he got away with it there, he moves on to twelve, I think there's going to be a field change as a result of that and quite rightly so. David Lawrence moving from mid-on, he's going to strengthen that leg side boundary. goes in front of square. He's a deep forward square leg and there's Lawrence about thirty yards away from him a little finer, here's Tufnell the he cuts it away on the off side, that's a fine and wide give himself a little bit of room ease that away through extra cover,steward in front of the grandstand, four more, which is the way he plays, sixteen not out. A hundred and thirty-eight for four. Yes all coming in boundaries thank you Bill. From eleven balls, he really is an exciting young player. Surveys that leg side boundary. It's two men saving single on the off side, as a mid-off and , here comes Tufnell again to Bolton, that's pitched up and this time plays a very defensive shot on the off side, the ball trickles out to Smith at point, that's the end of Tufnell's over. Eases on his cap and trudges away towards the out field. has nine and sixteen, Sri Lanka a hundred and thirty-eight for four, yes it has dented his figures, seventeen overs, ten maidens , two for twenty-seven, so ten runs coming off that over. It's exciting though,David Lloyd who's popped into the box again. Well that's the way to play I think, against Philip Tufnell,around the bat, plays natural games, you swing it away, swing with the tie, hit with the spin, insignificantly again the next delivery was a rank one which he cracked through the off sides. Take the, take the battle to the bowler. Away goes David Lawrence the start of the fifty-ninth over of this innings, a hundred and thirty-eight for four he's bowled to short outside the off stump, he lets that go through to Russell. There's one thing, best shot's he played in that innings down at Hove and it was a short boundary, it was a good deal shorter, in fact this one we have here at Lord's in this match, is a six over cover off good old Lester Piggott who was steaming downhill there at Hove all arms and legs and eased him over for six. He would have enjoyed that . Yeah . He was not a happy man, no, it was a great shot. He give it a full swing of the bat. David Lawrence is a little quicker than Tony , his present with some problems with his last over, edging away through the slips. It's who's facing Lawrence now, he's in and bends off a short ball going towards Botham at leg gully, played it pretty well, in fact, the ball bouncing up towards his ribcage, angle the back down, played it very safely. You'll know more about it than me John, but er, I just think that David Lawrence er from the pavilion end is click this morning he's bowled some very, very quick deliveries we've been saying all along that this is a very docile pitch now and a good batting service er, er against the , but there's been some quick deliveries this morning. Yes, all that rhythm, one day you have it the next you don't, and er Lawrence has certainly got it today, you can tell by just looking at a bowler running in, if he's easy and relaxed, Lawrence I suppose never really looks relaxed when he's belting into bowl, but he's clicked he's, he's right at the crease. Away he goes again, now, past Dickie Bird he bowls, that's another quick ball outside the off stump and er lets that one go through to Russell. So it is a slow pitch, there's very little pace in it for him, but it never puts him off, he still comes hurling in and er he'll, he'll flat out on anything, that it, we were saying some days he gets it right and others he doesn't. Just had a chat with Mickey Stewart and erm, he offered that he thought David Lawrence was a bit tired in the test matches that he's played and that it's took it out of him and not, not very quick. I should think he is tired, he's been running around this field, he's been at deep square leg, at third man and everywhere and he just gave me that blank stare. Yes, they haven't really looked after him in the field have they? They could have put him down to graze somewhere and left him there quietly for an hour or two, but certainly yesterday he was running all over the field. Mops his brow with a sweat band on his left wrist, straightens up now, comes steaming in again to bowl to that's a quick ball and fends down into the gully, off the back foot, short bouncing steered it down too smooth. Gooch,and together at second , spinning it, it's sort of back spin version frisbee, er puts it on his head, he'll be happy with the way the morning's gone hmm. They've removed the danger man as far as England were concerned and DaSilva both back in the pavilion and they were the wickets that England needed. Certainly felt if Sri Lanka had any chance at all of knocking off these runs, they had to score big hundreds. Oh that's not to be, Sri Lanka are a hundred and thirty-eight for four and here's Lawrence to pitched up and he drives outside the off stump, the ball goes through to Russell, low again, beaten back at the pace rehearses a shot outside the off stump, he was trying to hit it somewhere through extra cover. Moral victory there for Lawrence who very smartly, it's good to see, oldies pull through, turns on his heels and sets off back again in search of his mark. He's got a long way to go to find it. All of thirty, thirty-five yards I should think. Had a chat with Dickie Bird on the way back. Not short of a word Dickie to the bowlers. I saw Dickie this morning and I said to him how do you let these bowlers follow through the other pitch? Oh my, oh my,. He's had a good game, they've both had good games , difficult for them with the ball turning and fielders round the bat. An umpire's nightmare really, lots of appeals. Away he goes Lawrence again to the right-handed and that's short on the back foot plays it down with a dead bat, ball bounces little more than a yard or two . So another over full of effort from David Lawrence, he takes a massive breath and then heaves himself off some distant corner of the field. A hundred and thirty-eight for four, has nine sixteen and Lawrence has completed thirteen overs now, one for forty-three. Best bite of erm when everybody's round the bat and there's a bit of action. Do you think so? Oh I do yeah, I used to love it and I'm sure these two er get, I mean very, very good umpire is Dickie Bird and John Hampshire. They'll, they'll be happy with this situation with fielders around the bat and having to make decisions. Well there's three men crouching round them now, as Tufnell comes to bowl to , who covers up and plays a very certain spec defensive shot. There's Robin Smith, who's moved a little straighter in fact, you can't call him silly point now, he's more of a silly mid-off, on that's sort of line, and he's about three yards on bat, two men out, deep on the leg side, there's tough on the who's hoisted that one away on the leg side, I think that could well be safe for , who's chasing wicket, two bounce it's over the rope, and four more runs to , he's kept up his one hundred per cent boundary rate, moves on to twenty, five fours, and it, again, his eye very much on that short leg side boundary and Tufnell and Gooch they're having further consultations and that leg side field being adjusted again. Lawrence is coming squarer, which means I'm sure that becomes squarer. He's gone to bowl in the deep mid wicket position and Gooch just giving himself a few yards er mid-on. Here's Tufnell again for , that one comfortable low in turn, he played pretty well in fact, but it's down in front of his feet and then very sportingly picks down and picks the ball up gives it to Jack Russell. Very refreshing attitude this young man only twenty-one. straight through Smith's hand, this time, I'm sure that's the Stewart a little in fact shies at the stumps that's the bowlers in, was well home. was suppose to rapidly back up, he's twenty-two , born thirtieth June 1969. He's got a single. He has he's broken his little sequence there, twenty-one. A hundred and forty-three for four. Interest to see how he plays David Lawrence when he gets his he'll be, he can just slash him away on the off side. on nine, facing Tufnell, digs out a full-length ball and guides it down on the off side, poor old David Lawrence has to give another painful chase their from backward point,but er, he lumbers after it and sends it an energetic return on the er, he's swivelling round as he threw it. Poor David Lawrence the ball does seem to follow him around whenever he's bowling as well he, ease himself back to his position now two more to , he moves on to eleven. A hundred and forty five for four. waits for Lawrence to reach his position. He's there now,a little and Tufnell aborts his approach, gets up to the and dries his hands in the dust of the foot holes and sets off back to his mark. He's bowling from the nursery end here at Lord's, where a skip comes in to ,leg stump, but he flicks that one nicely round to . He'll a deep square leg. He sends the return one more to , he keeps the strike, the end of Tufnell's over, a hundred and forty-six for four chasing four hundred and twenty three runs to win. David Lawrence is certainly having a lot of work to do in the field as well as bowl, runs a long way, that's to be better at deep back with square leg, in place of Philip DeFreitas and let Daffy do some running about, he's just had a drink there. is fine swinging the ball with the tide erm, when Tufnell's bowling, just an alteration in the field, Mike was deep forward square leg, if, if, that's the right place he was neither square legged or mid wicket and it's prompted him to move straighter, but he's just a natural swing for the left-hander to hit with the tide in that mid wicket area. Which he, he did with relish, he looked at the area, assessed it, thought well I can get it there without any problem at all. Prompted Gooch to move mid wicket. Gooch has moved himself now to a very advanced second slip, no he's going back to the aisle or to, I thought perhaps his position as Lawrence comes into short down the leg side and Russell takes it on his knees, but the conscience I think of the ball not carrying, he just mostly can, Chris Lewis that,come up a yard or two and Lewis scraps a mark with his boot. who's probably the orthodox first at position a yard or two behind Jack Russell and Gooch is probably a yard in front of Jack Russell at second slip and Lewis a foot or two up on him at third. Conscious of a ball not carrying through all the time to Jack Russell and while a slash or a drive will go very fast to them, have to be sure that the ball is going to carry. Away goes Lawrence, shirt soaked with sweat, he bowls to who plays well forward taking the bottom hand off the bat and the ball rolls up to Lawrence who doesn't field it, it's Hugh Morris running from short leg, who then hands the ball to Philip DeFreitas, gives it a good shine on his right thigh. Lawrence I think gave his handkerchief to turned his nose up a little and stuffed it into his left pocket. It's the sweat rag erm, David Lawrence er, uses that at the end of every ball er from DeFreitas, just to wipe his palms, he really is sweating profusely as you say, his shirt is very, very wet, he's had a lot of work to do. A very warm day here at Lord's, breeze just starting to get up a little, in fact the sun has just disappeared behind one of a very few clouds. Away goes Lawrence to , takes it again with the bottom hand away from the bat, it's off the back foot this time, stabbing it down in front of him, a short of a length ball. Yes, there's the er sweat rag as you call it being tossed from DeFreitas to Lawrence who, as he dries his hands rather like a towel. Well, his which is a brute of a delivery and the, the new directive of course Dickie Bird immediately called it normal. . Great, nasty ball to get. It was DaSilva wasn't it, who lucky not to er to be rattled on the hand by that. No intention I'd thought. No slipped out. Still got to deal with it. . Tell me, if you've had ninety miles an hour, straight at your heart. Lawrence takes a deep breath and starts off again, with this massive approach, comes in now to , it's short and it ends in a way I think probably off the body, he tried to take the bottom hand away again, that, that they do seemed to be trying this angle of attack at him, as Botham there at leg gully and a short leg and they're trying to be, don't forget the balls at 's ribcage, he's certainly troubled by that one. He looks right David Lawrence I must say and that was a very, very quick delivery and getting back to your other point, that slips coming forward going back, it's just every now and again that it doesn't come out right from David Lawrence, it goes down comparatively slowly, but when he does get it right, it really flies through to slips. There's a huge I know we keep saying it, but, it really is his greatest virtue. Away he goes again with those huge boots of his, steaming in now to , that's pitched up, raps him on the pad, ball go, going down the leg side. Trevor stung a little he's adjusting his thigh pad now rattled in there at the rate of knots, and er Hugh Morris at short leg fielded. I think we've said it before did, about David Lawrence that he, he has the ability to bowl very quickly and in that learning curve of test cricket, he's now got to go from a, a lad who goes for five and six and all the regularly, he's got to drop that economy rate, down to three and still take the and then he's a test bowler. Yes, he's got to become with experience, only come with playing tests. With and Malcolm not really firing for Derbyshire, I shouldn't think Lawrence would be a virtual certainty for the winter team. He comes down to and that's a better looking shot from , comfortable, defensive slope which he pushes back up the pitch and from mid-on, a rare a house bowl with, with more economy, great economy, er in this innings, walking over one for forty-three, a hundred and forty-six for four. Well, also better figures er, what you've got to stress is that he doesn't lose pace. He bowls more consistently, he gets it in the area that troubles top test class batsman which is off stump, a decent height and a decent pace, without really falling all over the shot, only come with experience. He's trotted away down to deep square leg and Trevor Ward the Kent batsman there with a large drink for him. It's Tufnell to bowl to , he's a good contest he edges that one away on the leg side just for a single, that's a shame because er, it really is a good contest this. He has a run, Hugh Morris jogs after it and returns the ball to Russell. moves on to twenty two. A hundred and forty seven for four, the chanting continues with . Sri Lankans there certainly supporting their, their team. Cluster of four fielders round 's back now, they're all crouching as Tufnell comes in to bowl to , is it an appeal from Tufnell as the ball raps him on the pad but he's playing well forward, but the question Tufnell is asking really to John Hampshire is he playing a shot? He's just hiding the bat behind the pad. Scottish women have spent a great deal of time discussing the pros and cons of being an older women, but what's it like being young in Scotland in nineteen ninety two? Everyone here was born after nineteen sixty eight, the year of revolution according to someone. The sixties were in full swing and we all lived, whether we like it or not, in a permissive society. So here we are, the children of the revolution, what do they think of the world, of the Scotland that they live in? That's what we'll discover tonight, and let's start with a question, a pretty straightforward one. Are you enjoying life at the moment? Button one for yes, and button two for no. And, the majority, eighty three say yes! Why? Who said yes, and what are enjoying about it? Yes? That fact that in,a two years time I can go on to do the subjects that I want to do at the University in Scotland of my choice. I will be able to do what and, law which is what I want, and I'll be able to practice it in Scotland erm, which is something that I think's really, really good! Okay. Any more yes's? Why? Why are you enjoying life? Or are they all private reasons? Yes? No, I've got another couple of years and then I'll be able to do what I like, when I like, with no parents on my back! Do you know, what about the no's? Who said no? Why aren't you enjoying life? Yep? I still don't think there's enough sexual equality because erm, a couple of years ago I studied mechanics, and when I left college I found it very, very difficult to get on a mechanics course so I'm back again doing computing to try and get a job. Would you prefer to be a mechanic? Yeah, I would have in the first place, but it was just impossible! You know, nobody wants to take on a girl! Seriously? Yeah, honestly! What about the computing? I mean, is that gonna be easier? Oh I like ,yeah, I like ma , you know computing but I would, I preferred mechanics. Yeah. What about th er, gender equality? I mean, er er has anybody else had a similar experience? I think it's actually got better. I'm a second year civil engineering student Mhm. at the moment, and I think I would be some people would not have let me do that, I think, in the past Mhm. but at the moment most of the people I know are saying, go for it! Mm. But do you think you'll get a job as a civil engineer at the end of it? Yeah! Yeah. Yes? I was doing veterinary for two years and I wrote away to companies but they just weren't all that keen to ge give girls a chance. Is that a common experience? Yes? I'm actually a journalist, erm Mm. I work in a newspaper that used to be male dominated and now I would say three quarters of the wo , three quarters of the people on the news desk are now women. Erm, doors are opening, slowly , Mm. but they are opening for women now. What difference do you think it makes that three quarters of the news desk are women? Well it makes, it makes a difference in the content, it makes a difference in the topics that we cover, that we're interested in. Erm, women don't just want to write about knitting, erm baking which Yeah. one journalist, one famous Scottish journalist told me when I wo , when I, when I had ambitions to be a journalists, oh don't go into journalism because you're a women and all you'll get to write about is fashion! Mm. But that is not the case, it's not the case. Do you think readers notice the difference? Yes. Aha, I do. We Why? I mean we get enough letters about the, the, the pieces that our women write. Yeah. Up there. Well I'm doing a one year course for drama and media performance and Yeah. like years gone past it's always been male dominated but this year, there's actually more girls taking it up. None of these males and, I found like, the tutor, he's a male, and he is really bad about females being actors! He, he picks on us to say how determined we are to actually go into the profession because he knows that er, although there are more parts for females there it's harder for somebody to stand out. Mm. Mm. So although th th the equality of opportunity may be there the attitudes maybe haven't changed that much, or have they? What do you think? Yes? Well I think if you look at the main jobs in Britain, all the managers are male, and I think it's, it's gonna change when we do have females and males in all these erm, these jobs that are managing the main N H S, social work Mm. all things like that. Yes? Erm sorry, just to come back, er I work for an amateur theatre company Yep. and really, I mean you know, you can talk about male, female bias as much as you like but there's an awful of actresses, and not, you know, a lot fewer actors and a lot better parts for men. And it's something which is difficult to cope with, but I work in a kind of environment where it just is sexually biased, that's the way it goes! It's not something that can be changed, like maybe management but erm it's it's just that, you know, to be careful, that if you're doing these things, there's some things which, I think women can do, and a lot of things that women should be doing, maybe there's other things which just aren't there for them just now. The thing we've all got to concentrate on, is the opportunity should be there, and they should be there for us Mm. to do it, and it starts a lot earlier, it starts when you're at school and the fact that that women are told that you can do, like home economics an , and sewing and all that, and then they're not encouraged to go into engineering courses. And if that's gonna happen then how are women gonna be able to get on into higher education Mm. and how are they gonna be able to get the jobs? The equality of opportunity and equal pay for work of equal value and all those things are are are are issues which er have been fought over for the last twenty years. Now can I ask a self-indulgent question, I mean, how well do you think the women, ten, and twenty, and thirty years older than you have done in, in achieving a better deal for women your age? Up there? Well I was given a really big chance a while ago, it was by a single parent who was an editor of the community newspaper, I'm now the business and production manager, I'm a single parent, my wee boy's three. She lets me take time off, I mean she's really understanding. Yeah. I think that's what we need is more understanding bosses. But it was a women helping you? Mhm. That's a now I've had that experience. May I ask you a, a voting question actually on that? I wonder what you think? Do you think at the moment women have equal opportunities in Scotland? Do women have equal opportunities in Scotland? Button one for yes, and button two for no. And you'd be interested to know that eighty one of you say no! The nineteen who said yes, where are you and why did you vote yes, there? Who said yes? Yes? I don't think I've ever come up against sexism, except from in the classroom when the teacher to, the economics teacher tries to wind us up by saying women would should be chained to the kitchen sink! But otherwise I've had all the opportunities I would want. Okay. Any other yes's? Or do you think she's got something to to find out later on? Yes? I think there's always exceptions, but I think you've got to believe in yourself and go and do what you want to do and if you're saying there's opposition, there's gonna be more opposition, if Mm. you've seen it there. Mhm. I know there is exceptions. So it's not that you couldn't fe it's, it was it was actually you who weren't able to find the thing, rather than the thing wasn't available for you, that's the suggestion? No because , I applied for a lot of jobs Yep. and I was better qualified than a lot of guys in my class and yet they left college and got a job right away! And, I applied for loads of jobs and nothing ever came back. Okay. Let me ask you another question, or looking, looking towards the future. Do you know what you're going to be doing in five years time? Button one for yes, and button two for no. And thirty five of you say yes, sixty five no. The sixty five who said no does it worry you that you don't know or is that quite exciting that you don't know what you're going to be doing? Yes? I think, as a student I don't know what I'm gonna do and with the present erm grant system and bursary system it's it's even more frightening because es especially towards women, it does discriminate against women and that's why less women are going into higher education Mm. or further education. And with the whole child care side of things as well, it is frightening! As a, as a student are you managing to cope with er, very limited finances or Well, I'm the women's officer in my college and I Right. this is what I'm fighting for, I'm fighting for equal rights, and I'm fighting to get more women into further education cos I think it's it's a very basic that we all need to go into and it's hard, and the openings aren't there women to go into, you've got to fight for it, yeah! Yeah. Erm, my mother calls me the eternal student because I tell her that there's absolutely no way I'm gonna look for full time employment! But, now that, I mean I'm in the second year of being a student, and I took on the position of women's officer for the we , for the west of Scotland area Mhm. and I just don't want to move out of being a student because I find that, that more and more problems are, you know I'm coming up with because, like Melanie saying there is problems with child care, there is erm positive discrimination against women, and we are always discriminated on the sexual harassment in the college is unbelievable and we have to campaign against this and that's what's gonna keep me being a student. Might be useful to find out how many here actually do have children. Do you have children? Button one for yes, and button two for no. And, of this hundred fourteen of you have children. Now, you may vote in fo on this question as well, do you have or want children? Button one for yes, er and button two for no. So if you've got children vote yes on that one, if you want children. And, of this hundred three don't knows, that seems reasonable. Seventy six say yes! That's something to be sure of, I don't think I was sure. Twenty one say no and that's something to be sure of as well. How do you know that you don't you twenty one who said no? Yes? I don't like children! I don't get on with them! I just don't get on with them. I can't talk to them or anything so You. I don't want to be tied, I want to leave my options free so that I can do whatever I want, I don't need the extra responsibility, I mean I'd like them but I just, I want my career first. Mhm. Of the yes's, and that's majority, the seventy six when? When do you fancy doing it? Yes? Er, the next seven years or after that probably . Not, so not till you're what? Thirty odd? Well, I'm only nineteen just now ! Ah but About twenty five, twenty six I think I'll Yeah. sort of think about it then. Yep? Na , I mean answered a yes to that question, but I don't think it's a matter of do you want or do you no , cos I don't think the choice is there. I think we have to be freed up to have the choice to bring children into a society where that we can go to work, that we can do , you know fulfilling Mhm. experiences and daycare and you know, even in er child care and so on. I think, while I say that I want children, and do I have a child, that i , it's not made particularly easy. Mm. You have a job and you do the things that kin a er, inspire you to go on, you know, you know with er any other opportunity. Up there. I have got two children and I'm hoping to go to college when my youngest daughter is three cos I can't get her, can't go until she is three cos the creche won't take them until they're out of nappies and three year old. Yeah. But I'm desperate to go to college, I mean I love my kids and my kids get everything they need, but I can't go, it's holding me back, I can't get my two into the creche. Do you think young men think at all about looking after children or or or child care? I mean i in your experience is it something that you talk about at all with with with men? Yes? When I done a Y T S course Yep. like most of the the child care was done by the girls, but there was actually a few of the boys that decided they wanted to work in the nurseries and o eh the five that done, there's actually two that we know of a are actually doing child care as a career. Really? Yes. Now, that is a change! And I Yeah. no man of my age who er, who who are doing child care or anything similar. Any other er any other views on this? Yes? My boyfriend said he would stay at home and be the househusband and look after the children and do co co , the cleaning and cooking if I stayed at work. Does that appeal to you? No. I'd be quite happy to go to work if erm if I had a good job and my boyfriend stayed at home, that'd suit me fine! If I could go out to work and leave the child and and do what I wanted to do, I'd be quite happy with that. Is anybody living in that situation at the moment? Are there are any er, there any, yes? No, I just started a part-time job and my boyfriend's , come and watch them and he's helping me cleaning the house and everything's clean when I come home. We just started last week on this like that. What one week in? Well, it's every night but it's just a couple of hours a night. Yeah, but I mean you're one week into the regime? Yeah. Yeah. How's he doing? Good ! Good, which Yep? Yep? Er, I'm a first year primary school stu Mm. student and I've actually come across books now, that erm don't say the mother cleans the house, it's always a father. There is lots of books that I've got, either the father or the brother cleaning, and it's not just the mother and the daughter. Yeah I I what I'm a bit worried about is whether it's come to the stage where girls are now scared to put their name down to take home economics at school. Because? Because there's like th , the male dominated, like a male dominated in the class it might never come to that stage. Up there. The thing is er, you can end up feeling like a bit of a, a failure, almost like a traitor to womankind if you do take courses that are traditionally female. Mm. Well I can remember whe when I was at school, physics and maths were clever subjects, they were male subjects. When er, the headmaster when he was reading out the the subjects that people were taking for highers, and one girl was doing physics, maths and further maths, he said oh, one of our cleverer girls! So the rest of us who were doing arts or humanities or whatever, weren't as clever because she was doing Mm. the male subject. Mm. And I just think that that's the real danger. Can I sa , I'll ask another question tha , since we're talking about erm er, advances er which at one time came under the general heading, feminism, would you call yourself a feminist? Button one for yes, and button two for no. And four aren't sure forty of you say yes, but the majority, fifty six say no! Now, that's interesting! Of the forty who said yes, what do you mean by that when you say you're a feminist? Yes? I think there's still a need for feminism today, there we How? there were moves made in the sixties but I'm sure that the process is ongoing and we still Mm. need we still need feminists today. Mm. Yes? Now some , somebody famous once said erm, I'm called a feminist because I say things that is, to distinguish myself from a doormat. And I think and the a the idea of of erm the butch woman in dungarees, as being the feminist, erm and the women that burnt her bra or whatever was a feminist of the seventies, but it doesn't mean to say that the ideas aren't still there, and I still want to be treated as an equal, but I do , I don't see that I should change the way that I dress or the way that that I want to act Mhm. because of that it's my ideals. Mm. Audrey? I think it's possible that a lot of the women here are saying no because of the stigma that's attached to the word feminist feminism. The words the , I mean it has always been stigmatized by men, lesbians,and, you know everything Mhm. else, and I think that people have to got sort of clarify what feminism is, and what sort of what aspects of it they want to take on. There. Erm, I'd like to say Sheena that I, I think it was a difficult question that you asked, are you a feminist? Cos it's it's puts it do , I know you were saying about it's difficult to answer yes or no to a question but i in this case it's really true because I answered no but I've I've got erm I mean I've I've got a degree in politics and I studied er, I did a a course women in politics Mm. and I've re I have quite a high awareness about women's position in society, but because of that I feel that I've now come to reject the term feminism because erm I think it's also harming the people who, you know, it's harming the women that are holding on to that er, label because it is label and that is erm because it's, because it's a label it then it's blocking er forms progress for women. And er I think, I I agree, I agree with a lot of the demands that feminist women have made but, to kind of congregate it in that way, it's bu , I mean a lot of wha er, white feminists have been attacked for excluding black women, and that's one of the examples where you know, to be, to say that you're a feminist, it's not just men that you're alienating, you're also alienating other way. How interesting! Yes? I think feminism was something that was very necessary from, from the last generation and we're now standing on the Mm. shoulders of the last generation Mhm. but we need to make a lot of changes with this concept of feminism. And, and really erm, develop something new, something that's going to be more equal, something that won't discriminate against men and something that er, that isn't associated with with some more ridiculous aspects of Mhm. of the things that have been associated with feminism. So is it, is it as much the word as the philosophy? I mean, you suggested the philosophy, you suggested that the term has become devalued because of unfortunate associations which may have been imposed by, by men. I think it is as much that the word is a philosophy, but I don't think we should throw it out of the window altogether, like I say, it's a foundation, it's our our foundation stone. History. Yes? I have a certain degree of sympathy for men because I think you have to take into consideration that men aren't given enough opportunity to feel se , er sympathetic, maybe again is the wrong word Mhm. but to feel sorry for women and put their view forward because, I mean, you still the situation of a Friday when men go down to the pub and you know they're all Jack the Lad! Men are frightened to put forward their opinion. I mean, if a man cries he's considered a wimp! It's erm, even back to school, I mean boys wear blue, girls wear pink, if you see a boy with pink i , you know he's classed as cissy, er, cissy or wimp things like that. I don't think men are given enough room to express their emotions and feelings about things. Up there. I think it's men that use feminism, or feminist in a derogatory term Mm. and it shouldn't be. It's something I'm very proud to say that I am, cos I believe in equal rights and that's what feminism is, is believing in equal rights for women. I mean, I think every women sho , here should be proud to say they're a feminist if they believe in equal rights for theirself , and it's only men that use in the derogatory way. Mhm. Yes? Erm what I wanted to say is, erm, in response to the lady in the red, was that a lot of feminists have a lot to answer for because, in the sense, men erm can be discriminat , well not discriminated but we can say things about men which are generalizations, whereas if a, one man says one generalized thing about a woman, then he's just, you know chauvinists is everything, and he's got a really bad name to him, so I think it's got to be looked at from both sides. I mean, I'm definitely a feminist, but I'm not a man hater, but I mean I think everyone's looking for the new term and Mm. exactly as Alice said, the new term is womenist, not feminist. And,a a I mean I think we have, you know, to be feminists because we don't want to be better than men, we just want to be equal. Mhm. Wanna be a person then! I I think erm this is a good word because it well it's not because of the associations but it stresses the femininity and that's what a lot of the sixties feminists lost, I think was their own femininity because they saw it as man's imposition Mm. of femininity onto them. I think it's far too early to give up the term feminist. I think, we've still got so much to do, to to get to equality it's too early to give it up. And I know it's important to be equal in careers and to have equal opportunities and I'm not arguing against that, but I also think that perhaps, in doing so some women also lose the pride in being a woman, and e equality isn't being a man, which I think some feminists take that view, that they're not equal to a man unless they're earning money. But that staying at home and looking after the children, or whatever and bringing up a family is just as valuable as a job, or a career. Mhm. Erm, I don't think equality is being a man, I have no desire to be a man. Erm, but we've talked a lot about erm labels being Mm. negative and excluding people, but I also think that labels can be very, very positive and very, very important and that's, I think that's why erm, people thought up the word feminism and yeah, okay we have to think about the word and we have to think about what it means for us so yeah, a lot of pe , er people don't want to call themselves feminists because the label has such negative connotations, but it does also mean very positive things, it's a way of bringing people together, it's a way of supporting each other, it's, you know it's, brings solidarity to the movement and people need labels. I thi , because the society does want to categorise people so easily and so quickly erm, it's it's a very, erm easy, quick way of erm, knowing where stand. Yeah, I think it's important like in the nineties that we're facing, not like the the legal inequalities that we're, the, faced, the generation, the sixties but we're facing attitudes that are not Mm. changing. We've now got sexual equality in theory, and pay, and jobs and status and stuff, but we're facing attitudes which are much more harder to change. We've talked quite a bit about the, I suppose th th th the women's side of er, of this programme's title, what about the Scottish side? Right at the beginning someone said they were enjoying life at the moment because they were able to do what they wanted to do in Scotland. Now, I wonder how many of you, er are expecting to stay in Scotland? Let me ask you that question. Do you hope to stay in Scotland? I mean, with forays abroad, I dare say, but would you expect the rest of life to be spent in Scotland, or based in Scotland? And those same three people keep abstaining, it's amazing! Sixty two say yes, thirty five no. Of the no's, would you like to say why you voted no? Yes? Basically because the weather's terrible here and I'd like to move abroad ! So you're gonna be heading for the sun? Yeah. Spain ! Yeah. Okay, any other? Er, yes? I have a strong interest in languages, and although now we are trying to teach more languages in school, even in primary schooling, I don't feel that within er my, I'm only eighteen at the moment, by the time I'm twenty five things still won't have came far enough along for me to utilize this skill. I would probably end working in Europe as well Mhm. because there's no job opportunities over here, it's a lovely country but it's simply because of the work factor. So you'll be a civil engineer abroad? Yeah ! Right. Well of course there's a great tradition of Scots leaving Scotland and and maybe there's nothing wrong with that, I mean, there's there's no shame in leaving is there? I mean, of those of you who want to stay, the sixty fi , the sixty two er wha , why do you want to stay? I love Scotland and I wouldn't leave. Par partly because I'd get homesick, and I just love the whole of Scotland! I mean, I could go from anywhere,Lowerick down to the borders and I'd I'd be, I'd feel at home, but I wouldn't feel I mean, I went down to England for something like four days, and like from Berwick,ma , about it must be about ten miles from Berwick to the Scottish, the Scotland thing and I was a craning my head out the bus window to see it! I was, I just love Scotland so much! Yes? I feel a sense of loyalty, that after erm the education department has paid four years for me to Mhm. learn my trade that I ought to stay here and put something back into the industry again. What's your trade? Erm, I'm in government manufacturing. Right. And, I'd like to stay up here and sort of keep the industry going. Yes? That's a very important point! It's sad to see that so many people feel that they have to move away. And job situation maybe is that, but I think we should stay here and fight, and demand that we have the industries up here so that people from Scotland can stay and better, better theirselves here rather than move away. Mhm. So far I've really enjoyed my life well no major complaints anyway, and so I'd like to bring my children up here enjoying their life as well. Mhm. Stu , I mean I live in Glasgow, the chances of me leaving Glasgow are pro ,pre pretty slim but yeah, I certainly don't want to stay in Scotland because of any loyalty, that I don't think it's given me very much other than a lot of experience, a lot of struggle, a lot of opportunities to stand alongside working class people and fight against, you know, the injustices. But I think I'll stay here but I see myself as a internationalist as well. I think that the money that is actually getting put into Scotland in tourism, I mean I come from Sterling and Aha. it's, Sterling is gonna be quite, really good in the future for jobs and for everything. Erm, I just love Sco Scotland, I think it's got a lot to offer, it's beautiful place! I don't think I would leave Scotland within the the near future because I love Iron Bru too much, and I wouldn't get in some other places or Yes? Well, I know there are like, problems for women, they're discriminated against, but I think if you've got the drive and the motivation I think you can overcome these problems. Mm. Ah, hands always go up when I'm about to finish the programme and you've been so I'll give you a er, just a couple. Yes? It's actually women of our age group that has gotta take the responsibility for to make changes, so that women in the next generation have got that opportunity that we did nah have till now and that's the whole point of it. Aha. I was just gonna say, we've been talking about equality a lot tonight Mm. and although things may not be brilliant for, in the workplace at the moment, but we're we're making a move, we're getting a, a foot in there. In years to come they're gonna be the managers so hopefully we can make it better for someone else. A great positive note on which to end, and so we must I'm afraid. Thank you very much indeed! Thank you for joining us. Goodbye. Evening ladies and gentlemen. Good evening In case you're wondering why the conversation's being recorded this evening. Perhaps you'd care to explain, Mr Chairman, to those who don't know. Certainly I would, thank you, Vice Chairman. Er, yes, this is a follow up erm, if you remember at the last full council meeting, we recorded er proceedings for the er British Corpus, is it, Town Clerk? Yes, yes. And er, they were so pleased with your efforts, that they've sent the Town Clerk some more tapes, and they'd like a few more. I'm not quite sure that we will appear Darling Buds of May, but it's something similar, mhm. There right. Thank you, Graham. Right, Item one, have we any apologies? Councillors ,,, and . Sorry Anyone else? Yes,but has been wet all day. Right, item two, reports and correspondence, Town Clerk. I've got a couple of pieces of correspondence about things you've already looked at, erm, just minor alterations The first was alterations and link annex to West Harroll and Durrock Road. The minor amendments altering the roof design of a garage annex from head to gable on the west elevation and all other specs of the development rema remains unchanged, well, Erm, the second item is, er, a conversion of a bungalow to house West Hill. And the amendment is, oh, the omission of a second omission of the second floor. All other respects of the development remains unchanged, so not converting to a house, then. Doesn't look like it. So they're doing nothing then, are they? Is that what they're saying? If it's already a bungalow. I just read these things Sorry. I would imagine what they're doing is raising the roof and not putting in the second storey. Yes, it says it's a reconversion of bungalow to house, West Hill. I would like to notify you of the following amendments to the planning permission for the above development. To remind people of the of the omission of the second floor. In all other respects the development remains unchanged. This matter was approved and myself, Deputy Chairman, rural area area planning They've done nothing. I think they just had to admit that it's not, they can't, they can't do any s s sin, because it'd say so, right. It's admitting Well, I don't understand that. No, I didn't either I'm sorry,this confusion that er, that the upstairs, is in fact, the first floor. And the two yes and, and the second floor which in fact is a third storey. Indeed, could well be, couldn't it? Could be like Mr Chairman, would I, er, can I ask that we ask for er more explanation on what they're doing there? Yes. I, I don't like the way that's done. It's been approved, but I mean as interest exactly what what's been approved. I think they're let us know what they've done. Yes, er, I thought the council afraid doesn't understand I must object. I can al always recall what permission we got The problem is, when you get these letters out, unless you've got a plan in front of you, it's impossible to know. Mm. See we don't keep a plan, that's the problem. All we got is a piece of paper, which probably on that one tells the council they recommend approval of this. they don't get no comeback, do you? No. Perhaps Mr Chairman, we should erm, take copies of the plans. your figure. You're not late, are you? No. I think we'll end up with a massive filing problem, if we er, Yeah. try to do that. We've got time. This is it. Any offers, but I don't Realize, you realize that these may want a new machine for correcting plans which is not er, sort of I always wanted an A one photocopier. Right photocopier Erm, that concludes of course, the correspondence. No No. Oh, sorry that was circulated here. Yes, Graham, have you got Erm, very briefly, erm, Councillor passed over to me, erm, a report from the planning committee about planning policy guidelines, the countryside and the rural economy, and I thought it was quite a good paper, so we've copied it and sent it round to you. I don't propose that we make a any more discussion than that on it, but it is obviously erm, changing to the way in which they will be looking at certain items in the countryside. Okay. Fine. Tha that seems a fair comment, yes. Indeed thought you all had copies of that I know, cos I have a copy here, and I'll leave you to digest at your own leisure. Okay. I think it's a useful document, er, Mr Chairman, Er, yes. and I think it gives a balanced view, on something you know may be, you may be interested in the future. But I don't think we should make too much of it at this stage. No. I would agree with that. Right,anything else? Yes, we do by the looks of it. No,thought you were going through the erm, plans, this is all the background history to the er,house. Right, well then, that concludes, of course, the correspondence. If we move on to item three, we see We have erm They're only three in the last No, no, no, that's when they finally agreed I said perhaps some time afterwards. Right, okay. Right, moving on to item four which agreed to consider a term following plan applications. Application one is outline, for for an agricultural growing farm,. Do we need background to this one? Not really, no, er, we've had several people in to examine it, who thought it was erm, you know, okay where it was, and as it stands. Somebody who lives nearby, came in and examined it the other day, and that's all I know. Well, I think this is erm, replacing the house that's been sold off, really, isn't it, I don't think it was a good idea, really. Which house The original farmhouse at . Park, they called it, didn't they?sold off the farmhouse, they're living in another one really Yes, Erm, Mr Chairman, it's been brought to my attention, in actual fact, the drawings aren't correct. Er, as on the drawing service, it does show there are already two buildings there. I don't believe there are. There's only one, and it says that it was built in ninety one, and it wasn't, it was built in ninety three. So I think there is a little bit of controversy over it. Yeah,on one is in fact proposed, and one is an existing farm building. Yeah. There's only one shop that's existing. Oh, I see. And one shop is proposed. It's,it it's a grain storage isn't it? Storage of livestock you see. I don't know. Well, I be I believe we should pass it. I don't believe th that there's any relevance at all in the fact that there's something been sold off. I think what you gotta look out for, is a block of grain here which supports a dwelling. I can't see anything wrong in planning terms, whatsoever. Yeah. I would agree with that, Chairman, but I think that it should be so considered that the building's been built first. Yep. I agree with that. can I just add that the information in this, is in fact incorrect. The building was not built in ninety one, whether there's any relevance or not, where they're trying to prove that the building has been up for some time, they'd say,it's not, that building was put up this year. I built it. I think really I need to say that that someone been creating happens to be that they're not sold off and I don't believe they have sold off sold it off But let's be fair about this. You don't know in this case you probably do know, that the personalities are the same. But if the blo if that block of land had been sold off, and somebody came along and wanted to put up farm buildings and a house, then we would support it, probably, because there's an area of land there that's viable. I agree wholeheartedly, with what we were saying, what we don't want to see is a whole one house block in the countryside, he wants to see it as part of a farmstead and order to prove that it's going to be part of a farmstead, the buildings should be prerequisite to go up first before the house does. Is there not a time-scale That's for the put the details on a, on a smallholding. Well, that's a completely different thing. Ah. So they're saying you know, to, to prove that it's viable they they'll give you poly if you could have a poly-tunnel. Then they want you to run it for two year, have a mobile home, and if you could prove it's viable after two years, then there would be a reminder and we'll consider giving you permission for a house, otherwise, everybody could just put up one tun poly tunnel in half an acre and get a house, couldn't they? Mm. Immediately. Here, it's a little bit different, you've got a five hundred acre holding. Erm, I think is partially right. Some of that land belonged to subsequent farmers. I believe some of that land was farmed with Bishop's Court. And I think this I think I might be right. And I think it's because of the way the farmers have been split differently, and I think this is where it is very essential isn't it, I tell you what The actual lands, I think it is a little bit of different things. I, I, the butcher's rostrum you know, I'm glad you've made it. What we're actually talking about here, is the creation of a new farm, isn't it? Other part of the other farm Other bits, isn't it they took it back, you say. Is that house in the middle of the building plot? Yeah Yes. As well as the circumstance in all those cases? Yes Yes So when, when they sold off the buildings, they made us no inclination that the was gonna farm it, he was in another job? Yes. And then, then what happened then he decided to follow his brother's footsteps and farm it because the farm, the plot of land was available. So I, I think we've got to support this, Mr Chairman. in respect of what happened in the past. Yes. No, I, I didn't know where the rules stood time-wise, about at least established as a farm for a certain number of years, which I, why I believe I think, Chairman, if, if I may, is that we're going to be enough, the agricultural buildings should be built first, but it should sited relatively close to them. And I think he's settled on Creation of a farmstead. It should be a farmstead. We don't want to settle on tie up. Oh, yes, of course. But, as, as, as it says in the report which we've had this evening, a bit of flexibility, a bit of balance. It's a good job, that somebody wants to revitalize these areas of land. Yes. And as Cardinal said, growth is the only evidence of life. And we could And you proved it So can I ju ju just summarize. What qualifications would you like to put on this, if we approve it? something some adequate dwelling. Buildings are put up first. First, yeah. I'll erm, Well related to the related to the existing er agricultural or related to the agricultural buildings, that will be put up before this is built. Aye. yes All in favour? Approval any objections, no, carried. There we go. Application two is a full application for a Mr, Mr in for a detached garage at . I must confess when I first saw the plan, I was totally confused by it. The roads are not quite as they are shown. Erm, does anyone have any feelings on this application? Harmless With approval. Yes. approval. With approval. Item three, another full application from a Mr for a single storey extension up at . Looks alright. Again I had a look at it, it seems perfectly in keeping. For what's there. Does anyone have any views? I, I do support it, but this really was a case here, where people were a little naughty when this was originally built. It was passed for a conversion, and there was a stone barn, wasn't there? Yeah. That's right. And they, er when they did it, they knocked it all down, and that was really wrong and unnecessary, and though I think some of the flintstone was used, a lot of the flintstone went back in the builder's yard, and it was a criminal thing at the time. So, you know, whilst I'm a little bit reluctant in a way I think that's water under the bridge, and in my view actually the extension improves it all. It does. It appears we've done the same thing with the brick and the flints. I have to say there's a little bit grieving in the way Oh, yeah, but er, all to do with the planning, not past history. I, I, I think that that erm, this particular, erm, the way that that, this, the barns once were developed, in actual fact, were, were part of the death knell of erm, Yes. barn policy as we knew it. And part of that barn policy even were it not worthy of extra has always been, that the, once you carried out the renovations to the barn that was, the actual extent of the building. So that, you know, they didn't actually look too far gone. In fact, in a lot of cases where they took away the rights for Redevelopments. The redevelopment rights. Taken away. And certainly the percentages very never as high as they were on other buildings, were they? No, you could con twenty percent more than the barn that was existing Yeah. and I don't know if that was exceeded in this case. Yeah. They did used to take away rights, which mainly why he's put his application in for this relative Yeah. I, I actually think they probably did use up all that was possible available to them at the time, and so, in some ways, this is against the spirit of the policy, although the policies have been changed, and I hear what Councillor said about improvement to the place, and so I don't think we'd serve any useful purpose in stopping these people doing this, because they're probably not the people who were responsible for the flagrant disobeying of the rules at the time. Mm. But would that in any way affect what's happening now? This is just to give you Oh, that's unfair because Right. All those sorry, you spoke. That Mr Chairman, to hear Councillor say that, because all we're saying is that these council officers aren't doing their job, didn't they inspect these buildings? We did on several occasions. But No, I'm, I'm talking about building inspectors, because if it was supposed to have been retained, and they demolished it, and used it, you know, in another way, and not, not built it back. I mean, surely somebody's not carrying out their work? I mean, it's not for us to look into, but, No. it seems that as Councillor brought it up, I don't like to hear that very much. This was all took into consideration when this application, Yeah. This was all brought up Yeah. But that, that isn't, that would be part of regular Of course it would, yes, but It's not the right subject for application So, all approval. Okay. Carried. Item four, application by Homes,in conjunction with the for thirty six flats for residential development, on the land which I assume is at the rear of House, in erm, I will need some guides on it, because it's a ghost before my time, erm, does anyone like to Yeah. Can I just put the point that it stands at the moment. Mr Chairman, we we were interested in buying House, so I think I'm not necessarily to be found erm, Can I offer, if you like guidance. I think it is for you purely to decide, that this application does not affect the house. This application is only the grounds. Mm. I would feel you don't have to put a particular interest on thinks that's the house. No, you, that's it, you're confusing the plan, erm Right. Sorry. they've just rehashed the old plan, and just drawn a red line round the bit they want us to look at, erm, this bit know it's a computer. Yeah, I've got, I believe that that should be made clear to you all that the area concerned here, is the area which is surrounded by the red line. Although the plan has been superimposed over an existing plan, erm, to be charitable it's at best confusing, erm, my feeling is that in actual fact the plan there doesn't actually show us, well enough, and you may consider that we ought to be asking for a much clearer plan before we make a decision. So what'll they do,some back for thirty more? In the first pla in the first place, they tried for sixty, or something, they should I call back when Could you, could you do this for me? Current permission, I think at the moment, stands for forty seven sheltered units. That was won on appeal after withdrawal of the highway reasons, and the fact that the local authority hadn't backed up their refusal with more of the reasons which we put forward, for instance That was nineteen eighty six. Nineteen eighty six, that was the appeal I attended here. So they What they've done now, they've got planning permission for forty seven sheltered units. The reason, the reason I keep is, obviously the parking qualifications for sheltered units, are about urgh, forty five parking spaces per unit. This application is for a lesser number of flats, but is not, is looking to clear itself of any encumbrance over occu occupancy. So they're not sheltered, they're purely residential, units of residential accommodation, so you've been asked to look at a at an application for, for a completely new residential block on the same grounds as was occupied by forty seven sheltered units. And doesn't take in the house. Mm. Is that alright? Yes, thank you. erm I, I erm, I am actually dead against this for various reasons, and I don't think I would bring up all the reasons that I am, because some of them are not absolutely purely planning reasons, which shouldn't be aired at this meeting, but I do feel that the provision there for thirty six properties will create a traffic hazard, and access problems, which, which I feel will support this Council at the, the traffic authority after having done a sufficiently detailed survey, I think was the problem, wasn't it ? That was quite right at the time. But to access all those so close to the cable way access, I've given it as unacceptable. I feel that the density, thirty six in there, is totally unacceptable. I also feel that the affect on the adjoining list of properties is unacceptable. I think that's the other, properties is that there's only Wah, urgh, I tried to argue the point at appeal, erm, if you look up the listing for these properties, er, in the area which back onto the mill stream, it's all the grounds are listed because it says quite clearly, that in the opinion of, they form a group, and it was one of the reasons which I'm glad you, well as you can see, this piece of ground is part of a listing, and although this existing permission, we're looking at it as a clean site, tonight, we're not looking at what has been passed. Our job is to look at putting those thirty six units on what is a clean site What is a clean site That is because of my third contribution. The fourth, I think is the effect that thirty six of them, remember it's not older people, it's not shelters affect on the medical centre, and my fifth reason is, I don't believe that the plan, the, that er, the application we've got is detailed enough for us to give permission for outline thirty six. If you were giving outline for building, it would be different. But they're asking for for thirty six, Yeah. and I don't believe that is detailed for us, has enabled us sit here and say, yes, A there's room for them, and B there's enough parking, and C there's enough turning. So for all those reasons I have to refuse. I would support er, most of what Councillor has said. What, what worries me as well, is the parking. With that, you must have thirty four parking spaces. One point five, thirty six times, got to have fifty four parking spaces. I cannot see that land . In actual fact, the one point five stipulation, I think East Devon have now put up to two, haven't they? I don't know. They're in the process of putting it up to two. For this type of ? Yeah. For any residential accommodation. You're absolutely correct, but the plan is very confusing, very vague. I can't even see thirty six going on there. No. There may be, you know, may be fifty odd parking spaces, but there's certainly not erm, what isn't clear wasn't too sure Two three storey passed, is it? One point I'd like to make to er, Yes backing up , when I er, at, at the appeal, the medical centre made a very long presentation over the proximity, the closeness to their erm, surgery and they argued about the height of buildings, now it got passed as sheltered united, er, which means elderly and quiet occupancy. The fact that we've got partnership holders and sanctuary housing association, would seem to me that we're quite likely to get relocation and we've had all round the town at the moment, and you would have to agree that here is a very strong reason for, for the medical centre to be worried about the effect on the medical centre. That's right, yeah. I, I, I couldn't back that up more strongly. Right, anyone else? Care to say anything? list of erm Yeah, common to, to that. We've got two letters from erm, the two adjacent neighbours, erm, particularly concerned with lack of privacy, car park next to the wall of the properties resulting in noise pollution and potential danger of property from thieves. Pedestrian access will be a short cut for everyone, especially the school children. They've made it a, a, a sort of through cut there, which is now going to allow people to cross over erm, it's, it's going to make erm, two points of pedestrian access shown on the north boundary at the site, will create new rights of way and will become short cuts for pedestrians and especially children. This is undesirable and I ask that they be disallowed, that a child-proof fence be required at this boundary which is already being eroded. Well, that's that one. Now, when this very similar application came up before, it was opposed by the county highway authority erm,had no objection, county conservation er, recommended refusal. Erm, the basis there was development overlook and affect privacy of nearby dwellings of the medical centre. Affect the setting of listed buildings detrimental to conservation areas, increasing traffic, danger to pedestrians, high standard of design not achieved to the site in the conservation area, affect a boundary wall and prob problems of subsidence and no provision for future use of House if used, jeopardized its future should be secured. We also recommended refusal, so did the ward member, and, refusal was indeed recommended. Erm, we commented also on the limited access and congested area inhibits service vehicles, removals, delivery vans, which are forced to park in the main road. Inadequate parking unworkable in this place indicated. Site cluttered would develop into a ru run down area. Psychological trap, whole site too crowded with consequent noise pollution and physical stress to the residents. Fire hazard, poor access in confined space for emergency services. Inadequate sewage facilities with consequent overloading. House would be isolated. Gross intr intrusion of privacy from adjacent properties. Size and shape of the site incompatible with surrounding area. Movement into and out of site would create a traffic hazard. Hazard to pedestrians regular use of footway by King's School pupils and would be impeded by vehicles using entry. Trees would be lost during construction of buildings. Sites adjacent too, overlooks the medical centre, and this, well, this one maybe not so now, anticipated age range and type of resident differs from original concept. That's enough, isn't it? Mm. Yeah. one of two things I think you'll find the reason we said about the on the site, and the design, was it was a detailed application, Mm. so we were able to consider that. Well, of course, we can't consider that this time, because it's outline so, so we can't, you know, you must con Mm. We have to go to We take, take the risk, But a lot of are actually applicable right now, but if those in favour basically resubmit I think we should be saying, that whilst we agree with the site in outline, we are completely against the proposed usage of that site. Why We can't really say we've never approved it in outline, can we? Can't put It's in the plan You can't put too many reasons, if you're gonna say the plan is not explanatory. If that's your reason, or you want a fresh plan, conditions. You cannot put conditions where you gonna refuse it, if you can't accept the plan. You can't have both of it. Well except some, some of these reasons were actually still quite clear, despite the state of the plan. You know, you gotta forget that you, you must remember them, that, that it's been passed by the minister. Something's gotta go down. Something's gotta go, whether you give permission before this or an appeal. You gotta have something on That was for wasn't it? Yeah, yeah. And that was You could actually can't it? Mm. Yeah. The basis, the basis that the appeal was, that because it was sheltered, several other providers didn't mean anything, Yes, yes, the traffic Because there wouldn't be the traffic generation, because you could although they argued long and hard over the ability of service vehicles to service the site. And the inspector, would in all probability have upheld the refusal, had it not been for the withdrawal, three days before the appeal, of the highways' reasons for the refusal. That was done because the applicants did a detailed traffic survey, albeit on a Wednesday afternoon, and the county council hadn't done a detailed traffic survey, so they felt that if they went to appeal without that detailed traffic survey to back 'em up, they would have been rightly shouted that, or disputed by the applicants that had done one. I think you've got to add a little bit to that . It was another one of the er, er the officers' major jobs, the East Devon officers didn't carry forward all our re All our recent refusals. so they only had them, I think the major, they relied on such reports, as the strong traffic reason at that stage. That it would never get passed, just on highways alone. That was the officers' view at the time. Well, I must ad I'm a bit confused by all this, erm, and I don't mean can I say One or two more reasons here to add, that in the main, I did move refusal for the reasons that I'd listed, which in the main are covered. I'll run through them again, if you like. If you would, please. The first, first reason was highways. And I would say it's on highways with your traffic on the access and on parking, and added that to the list, I didn't say that in the first instant. So I think that still is, is the large play on . It appears from what I can see there, that the density in there would be too high, which it would not if it were sheltered. It, it's worth remembering, isn't it, thirty six properties on one acre. On one acre. dense. Dense It's ridiculous, when you take into account all the parking that's got to be provided on it. Yes, how much do you Erm, and the effects on the listed adjoining properties. Can you pass it up, please Which would be the and I forget the three of them, maybe we would list them as well as Riley House. Well, I can't remember how much room there was left at Riley House. I need a majority . How much parking is there left in Riley House? Well, what are you going to do with Riley House, I mean you haven't got nothing yet. No parking at all. So, so, No at all No at all. So, it must be the effect, not only on the adjoining properties, but also on Riley House itself, and the inadequate amount of curbage left with Riley House. Erm, my fourth one was the effect on the medical centre, bearing in mind, but I didn't say that at the time, that there's to be no longer sheltered, and there could be young families, remember, more rowdy an element, and maybe we should make details of that. The fifth, was I considered the plans were not detailed enough for us to give permission for outline for thirty six. You may be able to give outlines, you may be able to Yeah. give just outline of the site, but certainly not. They've asked for a number, haven't they,spec specifically here, which I think that's detailed enough. You may wish to add drainage, I mean, we're not sure there is er, adequate er, capacity in the drainage Well, that's the sewage again. Sewage, and erm, some developers in the area about contributions, don't they? You know, if they wish to consider that? Well, some of the reasons here can, can be repeated but, erm, if I can just run through these again. These ones, probably haven't been raised Hasn't been raised. because they might be applicable. Erm, the first reason, is the size of the conservation area adjacent to the listed buildings. It does not preserve or enhance the area in any way. I think that's a fair comment to say, despite not having clear plans. Two storey, three storey. We've got plans of the houses, haven't we? Pictures of the houses. There are pictures of the individual elevations of the property. In actual fact, you see it, it's, there's quite a confusion, that they come for outline, and given you a Detailed plan detailed plan Yeah, yeah. It is, Chairman, that actually they are down against the erm, Mill Stream, the three storeys site, some of them about three storeys high. Is that clear from the elevation? Yeah, it says so on here, yeah. Two houses Well, that, that plan is a disgrace. It's scribbled all over it. Mm. Difficult to see what you've got. You know just by looking at it, Certainly say we wouldn't want Well, erm, let's, let's look haven't got enough reasons to put down, erm, To what do we have parking within No, I, I Well, if they're gonna put variations does anyone put three million? Two and three million. It's eighteen, but that's Eighteen to twenty three. I know it's not specifically related to farming. You know, I do, I know we can't take that. That's the reason, that's right, yeah I think we covered that. Without saying that. Well, I think, erm, I'll just run through them. can't say that, let me see, er, inadequate parking spaces, you can't say that, because we're not, we sus we think we suspect inadequate parking, but it's still not clear from that plan what we actually No, I think what we are saying We've actually said the effect on the listed properties including Riley House, which would be left with insufficient curbage, I think that was the point we made. You got that one? Mm. Right. You got And I think, Chairman, we should be reminded that this is a new application, nothing to do with the other one, and I think we should consider this as a new application. Yeah I think we have. Yeah. the reasons were brought forward. Yes. So how many vote did you get erm Well, I got erm, highways, at the traffic end, with traffic problems, access and but obviously that start doing this Yeah. the too high density for the area. The effect on listed adjoining properties, Donithorn, Riley House and er, the other one, the name escapes me at the moment, erm, and that it will give insufficient curbage to Riley House when er, whatever development takes place there. The effect on the medical centre with erm, possibly, erm, different types of people living there Plans not detailed enough to erm, show for thirty six. Sewage and site in a conservational area, the houses are not appropriate. Yeah. You keep mentioning three storey building if they got to the amendment I think that's The reason, basically the building weeks' solid trouble with them. Gentlemen, I, I might I think we should add that the presumption for two accesses on the boundary against the land that is run. Because I think that one of them actually enters in the medical centre, doesn't it? Yes, one of the access in the back of the centre, yes, I'm not sure Yeah. see that. It's on the site plan, there yeah, they've marked it in. what do you want to know? Pedestrian access is it? Close one of those. Close pedestrian accesses. These two of The trouble is you've got a job to read them, haven't you? There's one there, one further to the left one's into the land that play area, or just below it. Then one's right in the doctor's area. So? So the presumption that they would be allowed to do that's wrong, I, I don't think that should do it. That's right, well why can't they go out beside the medical centre, again? what are you trying to do? That goes into the erm, Playground, doesn't it? playroom, or I don't know. Children's playground, goes right into the playground. Yeah. Right. Bet the children'll have their say. Plenty of I think that's a good enough reason, when I say I don't particularly want to add anything else. Yeah, that's right. Do we have a proposal? I second it. second it. second it. All in agreement, with, with views that are recommended? All agreement with refusal? Ye yes, sorry yeah. Oh yes. Did abdicate or what? Right, well the next, the next application is, is not on your agenda, it's application four A. Erm, it was an omission, an accidental omission. it got hooked on the back of that one with a large paper clip. It is for a Mr erm , Ridgeway, and it's for a two storey extension to an existing house. Do you have any comments on that? I've looked at the house, looked at the site. Can't see it look up to anybody else. give it approval. I would agree with that. How do we, how do we, I second that how do we stand legally? Okay. That's okay, we don't have to advertise We don't advertise No, we don't advertise. So, that's all right, we don't really that's it. Right. It was an omission on our part. Yes, I just wondered whether we've got a problem or not? We, we would have if we didn't do it, because the applicant quite rightly said, what, he said was gonna do it without us Yeah. Not, not with the timescale I understand it may well be delegated, anyway. single storey Right. extension. Two storey. Two storey. What's the the existing ? Looks fine. move for agreement. Item five is a full application from Mr T for er, Demolition of the Oh, demolition commercial oh, I was domestic commercial, couldn't think. Demolition commercial, for the construction of a pair of mews cottages at Ottery St Mary. Does anyone have any comments on that? We do, Mr Chairman, that Looks like it's very inhabitable. Yes, it looks very nice. The old slaughterhouse, wasn't it? Hasn't the abattoir gone? The old slaughterhouse, wasn't it? The building's still there, and the back not a patch on the abattoir. And er, all the neighbours are extremely happy to see a pair of cottages, rather than any new conversion What about the traffic, though? Well, they have to put up the There is access to the area. Is that the site, or is it under development not really. No, no, no, they're only just, actually fit, if you look at the plan, by creating an access some garaging, There's a maximum allowed to do there. Maximum you can get in. What, garages as well? Garages as well. parking. Ain't gonna affect the light of the houses that's already there in, in the street, is there? No. Cos they're always cribbing about, er Is that In actual fact, you see the plan, the two houses are going to the bottom end of the site, as far away to the adja adjacent to West Holm. So don't think they should put three, three properties on that little, on, on that coming out between the butchers and erm, Oh, that's access, oh, that's access to back of the grocery ones. And we, we, the permission was given to take away the garage. One turned it into a front room and one going down, and two in the alley on the left hand side, one in the alley on the right hand side. Access to three round the back. Access to what was once, but is now house, and was the access to the abattoir. Right. motorway next Yes, motorway access is going to be a problem there, the increase traffic. No. I don't see it, I It's decreased traffic it's decreased the traffic for what was using it as a commercial premises. Right. I Getting rid of a nuisance that could be there. Yeah Like getting rid of a nuisance that could be there. Yes. If, if they could use this as a It is also worth remembering that when they put in for an application for ten flats, the advice from the Authority was that was only development and no parking, Yes. but, that they would look favourably on two. Yeah. Because I was quite heavily involved with that, and they withdrew that application, pending putting in one to com comply with what they were told from East Devon. move approval. Right, move approval. Yes. Has anyone else giving reason for these I think we should there. I think we should say that we consider that that's er, would be far better than the old commercial units. Very attractive. Enhancement of the area. Yeah, enhancement, that's a good term. I don't know. S Begins with an E. Well done. You've got that word I was afraid that he would say what a pair Right. I don't see it . Er, Manor, Holden Homes, detached bungalow, double garage at West Hill. Incidentally, erm, West Hill, had copies of those two that are relevant to them, and have no objection. Mm. They have relied, or Oh, they did, yes. I have no objection, Mr Chairman. Approved. Move approval. Fine. Moved. Yes. Right. Approved. Application number seven. Full application by the Otter Trust for anne annex extension, and it is an amendment to an approved scheme. This is an Otter . It's alright, isn't it? How do you feel about ? It looks alright. Move approval. Agree. Approval. Item eight is a full application for a Mr J for a carport, at Miss it's a Oh, sorry. I knew I'd be corrected there. Miss stroke Mr . West Hill, and I'm sure you're all familiar with the site. of the site. What's left of it. Could I make the point, that I think the footings were already there, because they'd started their double garage, which they then weren't allowed to have, and I think this is gonna stand on the footings. I think it's a very attractive site, and I don't see anything wrong with the carport. I think the bungalow's blended in very well. Yeah. I already approved of it. Whilst I was against it initially, I am now very much in favour of it. What I'm gonna say, if it goes anything like that plan, I think that that carport looks hideous, actually. Well, it's a trellis work with a poly roof. against it already. Yes. It is a temporary, I would say it's more temporary than permanent. I mean, I know on the plans are not very good, but it doesn't show where there is a roof, presumably there's a roof beside it, just like trellis . I mean, I don't know what it is, and I, I think it looks pretty horrible. it in there, but I, I think a double garage would have looked better than that, actually. I think that's worse than the double garage, and I'm afraid that I disagree, Mr Chairman. In my opinion, I think we'll have an application for a garage in twelve months' time. Yeah, yeah. I think, I think so What happened, happened up there, once, once that was lost on appeal, right, the whole of the handling of that by East Devon council just been poor, and then, what did they do, they decided to go for appeal, which was upheld over the garage. What they were really fighting was the principle of what had gone on before. Now, what you're saying is, if we don't allow 'em a carport or something there, they're gonna park outside. Quite rightly. Now do you want to provide them with any parking facilities off parking? No. Parking there without a carport? Well, I can't con I, I think that could be very attractive, myself with the trellis work and roses And gro grow something up it? Yeah. If it matches in like the rest Er I mean, I sold up around West Hill you said many a time, how we think that's Yes Yeah, but it's very, it is very unfortunate, in my view, the way this system, it's not this council, it's East Devon that mishandled this. You must get back to this every time. The access was never meant to be it was meant to be further in and and we all for well know, the permission was for a drive to come down through the wood, which would have been very attractive and a garage on the end of the property. Which would have been very attractive, unobtrusive and none of us would have been against it, and when they came to put in the application to convert it, making it a meter wider and turn that into an extra bedroom or whatever was, we said that there was no parking, and we said what would happen and East Devon went ahead and approved that, and exactly in everything we've said which was recorded in this council Quite right. And then, you know, I feel quite aggrieved in the way that we've handled it and East Devon have mishandled it. It's gone into us, and we've done it's here that's looked at it properly, and walked through the trees and even looked at every marking in the trees that were gonna come down. Done the whole job properly, and what happens, in come the major authority and just everything we done out the window. Right, well, record as well. I I was just thinking, selling that you may make it a condition of the carport roof, that they would put four inches of topsoil and plant grass there. It looks to me on the plan, though that it looks such a flimsy structure,that you know its gonna be shored up with walls. It has to be walled On the application, the walls are in wood, and that's as much you get with a polycarbonate roof. Yeah. Well, I must hold it up. It's going to look like a garage, Yeah, well How do you feel about this application? Are we in approval ? Put it to the vote, and let's get on with it. Right. All those in favour of approval? All those against? I just pass it. that's right. I think we ought to record it to, to West Hill council Yes. No. Come on everybody come on Clerk. Alright let's have it. Approved. Yeah. Did you say that the ratepayers approved? Yes. They did. It should be noted. I think we should put that on the list no objections from the But approval recommended by the West Hill ratepayers. May I suggest you do that then, I don't like to look the other way . May I suggest you do that. That's brilliant. They're a standard, but they like your carport. This is an interesting thing, you and I vote against it, we are obviously dead against , Well, I, I don't se Well, I, I don't say that everything you do is lost. I don't plan the agenda, any other planning business? Anyone have any other planning business? No, thank you. Planning committee closed, I wish you all a very Happy Christmas. Thank you Councillor. Same to you. Same to you. I got to phone the councillors. What, tonight, or what? Tomorrow night. Sorry? I think I'm gonna have to give my apologies for tomorrow night. anybody who does fancy it, just but if you fancy popping round my house Christmas morning Yes. Aft afternoon and in the evening. for a bit of grog. Er, I shall be unable to attend, unfortunately. What a shame Is there a bus laid on mother's house in because my father was in in the first world war so my mum had to go to live with my grandmother and er I was born there and er then when my father came home we came back to my mum came back to she ha got a little house somewhere I forget where it was street, doesn't s it's not there any more. And erm I think I was about three when I came back here. And erm I remember my father now even now n although I was only three I can still remember him in his uniform coming home on leave. You can? Yes. Strange isn't it how your mind goes back? And yet my s my oldest sister she was three years older than me and she couldn't remember him. And every time he c used to come home on leave she used to cry, she didn't know him in uniform till he till he put his own clothes on. And er I b I remember him as if it were yesterday. But I think my sister was a bit scared of him, she felt he was a stranger being in u in er soldier's uniform you know. Yeah. You said you went back to your the house in street? Yes. What sort what sort of house was it ? Well that was a one up and one down and a little tiny little scullery and it had a little tiny back yard. And that's all we had there and we were for ever getting flooded out and there we we'd all clean our shoes before going to bed at night put 'em all underneath the sideboard or whatever. And in the morning there was nothing to see they were floating about you know with the floods. They used to come without any warning whatsoever. I think it was the sewerage that was in bad state. The sewers. But it was nothing new to to get flooded out all the time there. There was only a tiny little row in between two streets, there was about six houses I think it was. Very very small. Tiny little things. Were you aware at the time that it was a small house? No because all the others round about seemed to be the same . Some you know some had like a a living room and a little tiny back kitchen whatever you call them and erm two little tiny bedrooms above. B but until we moved from there to street and we still only had one bedroom and one down but a little tiny back kitchen. And er we were all brought up there the whole lot of us and I think I was about fifteen when I left there. And my mam finally got a council house with three bedrooms. Oh and we were posh then. Because we g we g we were all separated then you know with different bedrooms. But erm then my mam brought nine of us up in that one bedroom. How did you all organize it yourselves then being so crowded? Well it was one big bedroom but there was more or less like a loft. There was there was no doors to the bedroom if you know what I mean. It was you walked up the stairs and there it was all open. Like a landing or a loft or whatever. And then my mam had three big double beds in there and of course we were slept top and bottom. And then the boys and the girls and whatever. All s crammed together. So you were sort of head to tail? Yes. Oh yes. Top to bottom yeah. Yes. There were so many a the top so many in the bottom, the boys in one and the girls in the other one. And my mum and dad and probably a couple of the s little kids with them as well. It's a wonder they didn't get er suffocated some of the kids then in them days. And then there was always a cradle with a little one in you know in between I don't how we lived honest I don't. But there you are we weren't the only ones, there was lots of people just the same. But it's incredible to think that such things happened in them days isn't it really? It was awful. I know the house was only erm we used to have to run down to offices there to pay the rent once a month and it was twelve and six a month for the house and that's about what it was worth too in them days . Yeah. Oh dear. Who used to pay the rent then was it your mother or your father? My mother my mother, my father was useless. You know as long as he had his pint and his food he d he wasn't bothered. He wasn't er wasn't what you call a good father at all, no, wasn't a good provider. My mother was the one that used to struggle and many a time she's gone without herself you know. She used she used to count all the kids round the t table scrubbed table white after every meal you know scrubbed and rinsed after every meal. And she used to count us all and share it all out . And then suddenly she'd say oh I don't feel very hungry. I'm we knew very well she was but there was nothing left for her you know. Yeah. Th rotten days they were won't they? People say they were the good old days, but oh I don't think. I think they were horrible days. And there was nothing for my father had a few drinks you know and he'd come home and he he'd just come he'd he'd b be whistling coming up the street you know. And er soon as he come in the house he he just walloped my mam for nothing. Oh he was a awful man he really was. And erm I remember I was I was about fifteen now and my young brother was only a little tot about two I think three and I remember my father came in and he did he went straight for my mam for nothing at all. Oh and I happened to be standing in the back kitchen you know and I got hold of this saucepan and I picked my little brother up and put him under my arm in case he got hurt and I oh I belted my father from his head to his feet with the saucepan. I don't know what possessed me to do it I went completely berserk. I thought what now what did she do to deserve that? For sh she was a good mother you know she really was a good mother. And I I did I went completely mad and that's the only ever time I've ever hit anybody in my life, honest. And I don't think he ever forgave me for it you know. But then he se he seemed then as if he'd think twice before he'd do anything when he used to come in you know I er I said to him I said look we used to call him in them days you know, now what did you that for? Poor mam hasn't done a thing you know. And I think it brought him to his senses a lot after that, he thought well hello I've got what do you call it now? I gotta watch what I'm doing you know these are starting to grow up. Because my elder sister she left home when she was about sixteen I think, she went erm into she was working there as a matron's maid. And she used to sleep in and then a little bit after that she went to live in Liverpool with my grandmother and went to work there so s I I s I was the sort of erm eldest one at home then you know so I felt as if I was more or less responsible for looking after my mam sort of thing. But she certainly didn't deserve him anyway. Mm. How did you help to support your mam through? Well erm I remember when my father would never give my mother any money. We always had to chase after him for it and he'd never give her more than a pound a week. Never. And we had to go from one pub to the other to look for him. This was on a Saturday you know. And er my poor mam then used to go chasing down to shops late on Saturday afternoon and things like that. She used to get meat cheap in the butchers. She used to know my mam th she had she had lo lots of kids. So erm they used to put some meat by for her to er on the cheap sort of thing what was left over on a Saturday then my mother'd get lots of meat and that you know cheap. But wh where could you start with a pound? How on earth could she manage? Well she did you know I don't know how she did you know. She was a miracle. She must've been. Then I I remember one m my sister my younger sister she went to er to hospital with erm scarlet fever. And she came she was coming home from hospital and do you know my mother never had a little piece of bread to give to her when she brought her home. Sh we had nothing in the house at all. Nothing. Oh it was a dreadful time. No people don't know the half of it. But my father never did a regular job after he come out th out of the army you know, I think it was something had happened to him in the army, he'd got erm bomb blast or something or he was near s something when it went off and he got buried. And when they went to pick him up some somebody picked him up by his sort of under his arms sort of thing, and he had a double hernia through that. And er whatever whatever it was they said that er they wouldn't chance operating on him. So that meant that he was he couldn't sort of do a heavy heavy work so he just used to do odd job things you know, he'd sell horse and carts and er he'd go down to the pier when he used to do the fishing boats, he used to come in and he'd buy a box of fish from them and go round the streets selling them you know. And then little did he know when he used to leave them in the house, in the back yard, that we'd been pinching some of them. To get have something to eat . And and that's that's the way we survived. Yeah one way or another you know. But h he wasn't a dishonest man he was a very honest man. He was never in trouble with police or nothing. He wouldn't thieve he wouldn't he was too timid to do anything like that. And yet in the house he was a er revolting man in the house. That's why I couldn't ooh I couldn't stand to to marry a man that's drank you know . I was petrified of having the same thing as my mother did. Because she did have a hard life. So really the the children were in effect brought by your mother? Oh yes. If it'd depended on my father we'd have been dead years ago. Yes I do , I honestly don't ask me I haven't got a clue how she managed. But there were always a big potful of of whatever you know erm stew or she'd make a a cake in a in a big meat tin. And all done in the oven in the old fashioned grates you know, no fancy gas cookers with thermostats or whatever on . It was all stuck there with the coal underneath. And it's amazing what w you know, and you a she always baked her own bread. Always. Always baked baked her own bread and we used go, we used to run that to the to the bakers to have it for baking sort of thing. And that was about every other day she used to bake about ooh I forget whether it was fourteen pound or twenty eight pound of flour she us . I know we used to have to run to school in the morn er for the shopping in the morning. Before going to school. So that she'd be be she'd be doing her baking during the day while we were at school. And erm I think that's the way you know that er we were fed because there was none of us that was not suffered from anything apart from little childish illnesses cos if one got the measles we all got the measles you know, the whole lot of us. One got the whooping cough we all did . And erm that's the way we went. And what happened er then when you when the family was going down like flies? How Ah my poor mam had us all in that one bedroom upstairs you know. Oh it was terrible. I'm not saying we all had it together but you say you can er say that about four of 'em would then as that as that they got rid of it the other the others'd get it you know eventually and th we'd all have it in the end. With a few weeks in between. But er she managed somehow you know but she was like that my mother'd manage anyth any illness at all and we never worried about that. She always knew what to get. For anything what was wrong with you. To the chemists she'd be yeah . So she'd go to the chemist not to the doctor then? Oh n we'd go to the doctor. But er she had to pay her didn't she? Although it was only about two shillings I think it was a lot of money for her you know. So unless it was something very desperate she always seemed to know what was wrong with you. She always always oh she she had a second sight like that, I think she should've been a doctor if she'd lived in these this day and age. Because no matter what was wrong people always used to run for my mother you know. And she used to go with the district nurses a lot to er to treat different people specially a long time I remember erm a young man erm h he had er I think it was cerebral palsy he had and er he was so fed up with himself he threw paraffin over himself and er set light you know on the top of the stairs and threw himself down. And oh he burnt his back shocking, terrible state his back was in. And my mam went to him every day with the nurses oh it was months and months and months until it was completely cleared. I don't know how she did it but she did. I could never take after her can my sister but not me. knock knock What on earth's that? People moving in next door. Yeah. So your mother was regarded in the neighbourhood as someone who knew how to treat illnesses? Oh yes. Or accidents anything like that. Yeah. Oh she was good you know. She used to know every every medicine no matter what. She'd make her own cough mixture for winter time in pint bottles. And er that then we were alright for winter in case we caught cold. And then she'd dose you up with goose grease, oh dear that the thought of that now. And erm but that's what she believed in. But anybody er with an any child with an accident you know she was there, whether they'd scalded themself, burnt themselves or fell over or what. She was there. Only she couldn't touch us if we were hurt. Really? If we had a splinter oh go to auntie my other mm she wasn't our aunt really but er she was she was some relation but we used to call her auntie and we'd have to go to her to take a splinter out of our own finger she us she couldn't touch us, wasn't that funny? And it's the same t squeezing boils and all sorts of things out of other people you know. Oh she was a she was a great person she really was. Yeah yeah. But I don't think any one of us'll take after my mother. No? No. No. I don't know we had a very hard life when we were kids but you know w er got on ourselves later on we we had a fairly easy life but erm you don't forget those old times though do you not really. You said that er people would er would come to your m mother for acc if they the children suffered from accidents? Oh yes. Oh yes. There was one girl she'd erm she'd burnt her leg right down the front of her leg er on the bone in the front of her leg and er her mother just wrapped up something an old stocking I think she put in it, and of course it went bad didn't it. Then er this er my mam saw her limping one day, she said what's the matter? And this little girl said I've burnt my leg. So my mam says come on she said come with me and took her home and er sat her down on oh and she'd go and get this stocking off of her little leg it was er hole in the leg like that. And er she got it away eventually bathing it and talking to the little girl and then she said to her now I want you to come here every day she said so I can I see to that for you. And to this day I see that woman. And she talks about it remember your mam the way she looked after my leg. Yeah. I'm sure sh you know she would have been in dire trouble er only for my mother having seen her limping that day, but that's the sort of thing she would do. Yeah. The fact that er people felt free to come and ask your mum Yeah. er w was that kind of service erm usual or unusual er ar around here? Oh no it was a usual thing you know, anybody'd go out of their way then to help. Everybody's door was open, whatever they had was shared you know whatever one ever had,an even it was only half a loaf it was there. Erm it was a mar it's was a wonderful place to live in this this part of er you know Bangor. Oh yeah it was great. How would er how would the community know when someone was er in need of? Well I dunno. You you more or less guessed I suppose it would somehow get get to be known by somebody you know. It's er like someone was having a child and they never had er never had er nappies or whatever. I've seen my mam take sheets off a bed and tear them up in squares. Fo to make sh little nappies for the baby that was just been born and no clothes ready or fo and I've I've seen her you know as poor as we were my mam would sit there was patching sheets and er but I've seen them whipped off the bed and put on somebody's bed while they were having a baby or whatever. So you know i that's the way s you sort of got to know er er people's circumstances I think. Not that people used to let you know about they were hard up I mean, they just wouldn't would they? Even though they were poor they still had their pride. To an extent I think. So th the sort of help that was that would come to the surface would it be at times like birth, death, accidents ? That's right , that's right yes it would. It would. People didn't have much to give but what they gave they gave with a good heart you know. Because er well if there was a death er in the family at th that time they used to erm I don't suppose you remember it but er there used to always be a plate on a table whoever called would leave a little bit money on the plate to help pay for the funeral or whatever. Very quietly. Yeah, nothing said as they went out, people just used to put a little something on the plate or whatever. Just to help but erm yes everybody was in the same position more or less but erm and yet they used to help in a s own little way. You said that er when when people called at er when there'd been a death would that be calling to see? To sympathize or t could they help more more than anything. Yes could they help you know. Just just to show that erm well they just were that those sort of people you know. If they thought er well I'd better go round just in case and she might need something or she might she might just want to talk or whatever you know. And er they just used to go and have a quiet word and not make a fuss, no bother no nothing. At that time would it have been a custom to have had the coffin in the house? Yes. Well yes, there was no such thing as er chapels of rests then was there? Everybody even though you only had the one room downstairs, I remember when my brother died he w at twelve although there was a big crowd of us in that house there was er no there wasn't then there was er the four sisters wasn't there? And er that's right there was only four of us then and erm this little coffin was there and my sister was trying to feed him a piece of apple while he was in his coffin, saying do you want a piece of apple in Welsh to him. She didn't know she thought he was just sleeping. Yeah. But oh yes everybody had the coffin in the house then no matter how small your house was. Strange to think of it now isn't it? Yeah. Cos people here have done everything in that one room didn't they? So you would you well you would have to carry on your life not as normal but you'd have to eat wouldn't you ? Oh yes. It was there and I mean and the rooms were so small. We there wasn't room for a three piece suite sort of thing and then you'd have a sideboard and a table, chairs to sit on like hard chairs, wooden chairs like kitchen chairs. But you wouldn't have er you wouldn't have easy chairs or nothing like that. You know that that's about all the room there was was honestly was a table and chairs and more often than not a couple of us had to sit on the stairs. Cos the stairs was in your living room then, as you went in through your front door your stairs were facing the front door. Your front door was in your living room. when you open the door When you open the door you're in the living room. And then the stairs the stairs are facing you like that, so you've only got about about a metre of in between the bottom of the stairs and your front door and you s just sort of go in through there an and you're in the living room. No partition no nothing. No it all open. Just like the bedroom was upstairs. Oh shocking to think of it now isn't it? Yes it's erm it's a completely different time isn't it? Yes. Yes honestly it is isn't it? But ooh I wouldn't like to go back to them days I'm sure I wouldn't. Can you give me some idea of the eff the effect that say a death would ha when your what effect did your brother's death have on the family ? Well, well it was erm my mother was very very upset. Well it came so suddenly you see there's erm as I said playing football, and then this accident and then he he was sort of taken away from us in no time you know. And I remember I was sent to er a neighbour's house the day of the funeral, I was erm seven. I was seven and I was I went to a neighbour's house and as it happened I was looking through the blooming window when the funeral went past so I was no better off you know. And er there was the er the kids from his erm he w he was going to school when he died and er there was children from his class walking along cos they we they used to walk to the cemeteries then and carrying a wreath of er flowers, I remember it as if it was yesterday. The children from his class walking in the funeral yeah carrying a wreath from the class and mm. So although you would have I don't know but I I hope I'm not sort of I really am trying to find out although you'd have his coffin in the front room where you would be living Oh yes. you wouldn't you still weren't allowed to go to the funeral? No I wasn't. I whether my mother couldn't afford to buy me clothes to go. Or whether for some unknown reason she just didn't want me to go. At the time er did did you think that was unusual or did you accept it? I accepted it, whatever my mother said, we accepted. Because we always thought well she knows what sh you know she's right. My mother was always right s as far as we were concerned. And erm I think he died if I remember rightly, he died on the erm twenty fifth of January and my other brother was born on the third of Thank you. er yes I was saying erm they only had the midwives in them days didn't they, to come for the birth and that and anyway my mother was was ill enough to have to send for a doctor. And that's the first time she'd ever had a doctor. And sh they she was given erm some sort of oh something to put her to sleep or whatever gas and I know sh she seemed to know what she was doing but this lady that was there with her she passed out with the smell of gas in the room so she wasn't much help. But erm this might not believe me but I'm gonna tell you just the same. He was over fourteen pounds born. Good God. Over fourteen pounds born, he was the heaviest child that they'd ever delivered. Your poor mother. Yes so that's why she had to have a doctor for that one. So anyway, she got over it and all she had to do she she tell her to stay in bed now for s so many days but she'd be up again the following day and then the nurse'd come and have a look under her feet and she'd say you been up again she'd say. Cos she hadn't washed her feet for going back to bed. The soles of her feet and the then they knew she'd been up on her feet you know. But as she said she she just had to she couldn't stay in bed when she had kids running all over the place. No I don't know how she ever put up with it, poor mum. So at that time, the midwife would only come for a a quite a small proportion of the time then? That's right, yes. Just when when the child was more or less The they used to call I think you know when before the baby was born. To sort of make out s make sure you've got this and that so you're ready for the confinement and er But they only came the last minute when when they were the ma mams were expecting their babies. And then they'd call for a few days afterwards er whatever. And that was it. Finished. And yet again my mother used to go with him to deliver ba other babies as you know herself as we as we sort of grew up and we were off her hands. And she used to go with him a lot. Well she's delivered many a baby herself with no nurse er about. You know they always used to come when it was too late. If they knew my mam was there they knew it sh they'd be alright. They never bothered. So your your moth mum would act as a midwife ? As midwife yes. My sister Ann she's delivered a couple of children herself. You wouldn't think so to look at her would you? She looks capable of it. Yes she is quite, yes. Mm. But er my my mam did. And another time ooh another time she went er somebody I tell you they always used to run for my mother when there was trouble and er a woman had hung herself just round the corner to where we lived. And my mam went there and she cut her down and everything you know. From a beam where she'd er she'd hung herself. And when she came home she said, Do you know what she said she must have taken ages she said to put that cord through that er beam, she said. She must have taken a knife to push the cord through, she said, there was hardly any room for it. And then you know . And my poor mam you know, she used to scrub her hands with erm it wasn't Dettol it was Lysol in them days wasn't it what they used to use. Proper hospital smell Lysol it was called. like carbolic acid? Aha. Yeah. And oh gosh it used to burn your hands nearly. And she'd scrub herself the hands with that you know and of course my mam used to do all the baking didn't she. And then us kids wouldn't eat because she'd cut this lady down you know. And sh whatever's the matter with you she said, you've seen me scrub. Oh, I said, we're not hungry. I think she saved more money that week on food . We just didn't fancy anything she'd touched you know. Oh it was a dreadful thing when you come to think of it now, the poor women couldn't help it she was must have been in desperate straits to do a thing like that. And she was such a lovely lady too you would never would have believed it. She was a really nice lady she was. Mm. Was it not uncommon then for people to commit suicide or was it Well I don't know. No I d I didn't hear of many. I think she had this lady had tried to drown herself in the quay before that. Mm, no I don't think so, not that I can remember. I think there's more more recently that's done things like that than there was in them days. Mm. You said that erm your mother would after the confinement and after the birth she would erm have to do the normal housework? Yes oh yes. Would er d d during that period af immediately after, would anyone else come in to give her a hand? Yes well my grandmother I think she lived nearby and she'd sort of pop in. But erm what I was I was just seven, my oldest sister was ten so she'd probably have been you know more capable of helping my mam out than I was. I suppose I was the one that used to run about for errands or whatever. But erm I suppose she would have been the one to do the cleaning and washing up or whatever. But my mother wasn't the type that would lay in bed if you know what I mean. She she wouldn't be happy laying there you know she'd be too worried about things. About what's happening to the rest of because she was very maternal she was m she was our mam. But she was er she was like a broody hen with us you know she was forever watching and looking and making sure we were alright. That's why I keep saying she was a good mother. So Yeah. so you were aware all that time that er you were under her care ? We were under her care until we were married. Mhm. We did as we were told. Yeah until we were married. And then she would be advising. I er I remember always don't buy what you can't afford don't get anything unless you can pay for it. She was that type of a person. You don't want people knocking your door and er you know she up to the time she died we we used to be advised by her. she died at sixty,bless her . Mm. Were you aware were you aware then at that time that although people were generally poor in in in the area, that some people were suffering the consequences of being in debt more than others, or being poor more than others? I don't think there were many people in debt because they knew they couldn't afford to go into debt you know. I think that's why they were poor, they'd sooner go without. I'm I'm sure that's er that that was the reason my mother was poor. She just knew that they we she couldn't she couldn't go and get any you know, anything on H P or whatever. Because she knew she wouldn't have the money to pay for it so we just that was her way you see. Whatever if you can't afford it go without. And that's the way we were brought up. And and really you know on second thought, many a time we've thought that her words ha have been there and you'd say, Oh no I won't have it you know. Yes she was a very wise woman. Was it generally thought of then er that is being in debt, was it generally thought of as being something that was evil or Oh I think so. Yes? I think so. Yes. I mean I don't think there were many houses that th anybody knocked the door for any any debt or anything. I'm sure there wasn't. Because as I say people were that poor they they knew that they just couldn't afford to er to get anything you know. Not unless they had the money to pay for it which they didn't have. Oh it was poor in them days there's no two ways about it. It was. it was nothing for you to have the er sole of your sh shoe flapping off and having to wear 'em till the p there was a little man that used to mend the shoes in Hirael there and you'd go to him and he'd put a couple of nails, never charge you for it you know. No? No. go sitting in his shop watching him mend the shoes. Because he had he used to have a big open fire there and all the kids would be sitting round it keeping warm while he was mending the shoes. And and you'd say, Oh look Mr my sole of my shoe's come loose. Oh take it off and he would stick a couple of nails in. Had the nails in his mouth you know and er used to knock 'em with a file. And then you'd go you'd be swanking then, your flap had gone you know. But er that was a commonplace thing he used to do that for all the kids. Nice little man he was. Woodpecker. you said that you'd be sitting round the fire, but wh when you were when you were in your own house Yeah. would you be sitting around the fire? Well it wasn't big enough really. No I mean the fireplace was you'd get about three chairs round it, it was it was crowded . But the room was so small so no matter where you sat there you'd be warm. Th with a crowd and er the smallness of the room. So you know erm my brother was er as I said I was er four when my brother died then my mam gradually had more children afterwards until there was nine of us in the end left there. In that same one room. Before we before my mam had the house in Road that was just what you might sort of still call it . And then we had the three bedrooms then. But erm there we had the living room and a parlour and we were posh. But er I dunno. But no nobody ever used to seem to sit round the fire. My mother would probably be the nearest one to it er sat at the corner near the fire and all the kids would be sitting round the table doing something you know. Or out in the street playing out the way. Yes I was going to ask y er wh where would you be playing as a as a as a young girl then? Well we on the beach on on the there, we went th we were there from morning till night wh during school holidays. And then Street where we lived it erm was a dead end it was a cul-de-sac. So we were safe to play there, there was no traffic up and down there you see. It was only a little narrow you could step from one pavement to the other on the other side of the road. And our mams used to have skipping ropes you know one sat on the chair on one pavement the other one on pavement on the other side, turning a rope er and we skipped for hours there, with our mams turning the ropes for us. Things like that we used to play. Never very far away you know. Our mams always watching us. But it was mainly on the beach we used to play all the time. Cos when the well as soon as you could walk in the summer er you know when weather permitting my mam'd take us down on the beach there and, Here you are, sink or swim in you'd go into the water. Did you? Yeah. And she'd be watching you like a hawk you know. But er it comes natural to a baby a swim doesn't it? And er because that's where we were all the time so you had to learn to swim from no age at all. So I wonder if that's why they were good swimmers around Hirael you know. Great swimmers they were. Yeah. So generally speaking then the children were taught to swim when they were little? Oh yes. From from a few weeks old she'd be sitting on on there was an old er wreck of a boat there. My mam'd er well not m my mother all the mams, would be sitting there with the kids with their feet in the water to get used to it even when they were a few weeks old. You know I can visualize it now you know. But as soon as you could walk,then they'd throw you in then watching you every minute. And it used to come natural. Oh they were really good swimmers round here. Specially the lads. I always felt safe, there was always somebody about. Mm. Did the lads and the girls play together or ? Oh no together always They did? Yes. Yes always together great. Nothing for us knocking each others' doors at nights about midnight coming for a swim and we'd all go down. Yo you know moonlight bathing and all sorts. Quite innocent. Yes even the lads and the girls you know. Oh we were brought up together all on the same vicinity for over the years you get to know one another and and erm thoroughly enjoy ourselves. Quite innocently. Yeah. When your mother was sort of having a lot of a lot of children and and after you you know you you were growing up and she was still having children erm had you any idea of erm the processes by which all this was coming about? No I didn't. No I didn't I was very very erm my mother was erm I don't know what can you call it very slow in coming forward I think. No she never told us anything about anything. And we when we came of age puberty I was frightened to death me because I was sitting on the bea we were playing on the beach still a child of twelve cos we still went about with little socks on at twelve in them days. When I first started becoming a woman on playing on the beach and I ran home petrified. And she says there's nothing wrong with you she said and gave me a what you call it to p to er protect myself. There's you're not ill there's nothing wrong with you she said. But as from now, she said, you're a woman, she said. So just take care of yourself. And that's all she told me. And I had no idea no idea at all honestly. No idea. When you came home did you and sh she told you this Yeah. did you Fro fro just listening to th the way you were imitating what your mother said Yes. it seems that she was quite definite and quite firm? Yeah. What sort of effect did it have on you that kind of directness? Er Well a as soon as she gave me this erm protective thing to wear and and then told me that I was grown up and every . Now, she says, I want you to go up town to get me whatever it was, don't ask me I don't remember. And I s I can't walk. I'm ill, I'm dying you know . But no you go up town and get me this you see now she meant that sh sh you know no mampy pampying now, off you go yo you this is going to happen to you for a long time to come. And erm anyway er it all passed over just like that and came natural afterwards you know. And it was girls in school then that s s you know when you started talking about, Ooh what happened to me on the beach and that. Oh didn't you know, I could've told you that you know then we got to know all the all the things when it was too late but as regards my mother telling us anything brrr no. Was was that sort of thing quite usual then that the that the children had to find out Yes the hard way yes. They used to get petrified out of their their lives you know before they knew anything about it it it'd happened to you. And oh it really er it frightened me to death. It really did. And I wasn't the only one I think all my family was the same . after that we sort of passed it on to the one next you know what to expect, but if it was down to my mother she'd never tell you. But us girls used to tell one another afterwards you know. Yeah. Were you involved at all in er looking after the younger children? Oh what? We never used to be able to go and play anywhere take this one with you. Oof I near I nearly flattened my s Ann my sister Ann. Oh she was a miserable child. Oh I'll never forge oh she was the most miserable child that God every created she was honestly. And oh God and every time I got, take this one with you more misery. So oh I said mam do I have to? Take her. And you always had one or two of them with you you know no matter where you went you oh dear. Oh mm terrible. No you were never allowed to er have much time for yourself, you always had one or two of the other kids. Mind you you can't blame my mam really you know poor thing, she wanted a rest didn't she. Though you thought, Oh come on old misery can't I go out on my own some time? The only place I was allowed to go to school I think. But as regards going out to play we always had to take some of the others with us. But then we were never far away were we? Was that er w was that sort of thing quite usual then for older children Oh yes. have younger ones in tow . Oh yes it was yes. Because we we they were nearly all big families weren't they? In them days anyway. Oh yes cos there was quite a few er kids in in that little street of ours you know in Street. Gosh yes. Quite a few kids in there. But I think my mam had the most. Mm. You said that erm sometimes the mums one would sit on one side of the street and one the other skipping w Mm yeah. while you skipped Yeah. Would they be talking to to each other? Oh yes. Passing the p time of day about th things in general you know. And then erm oh nearly all the mums'd be sitting out. All the houses were so small that er th nearly everybody'd take their chairs out in the evening time in the in the summer. And there they'd be chatting across to one another or come to each others' doors and h you know pass time of day having a little chat about one thing and another. They were glad to get out the houses I think. Cos when you think of 'em now they were claustrophobic you know. They were low and er small. Would your would there be any s visiting, would your mum? Oh no. There wouldn't be? No. No we never had visitors, my mother couldn't she couldn't afford to have visitors you know. And she couldn't visit anybody otherwise she'd have to take some of us and y She wasn't very welcome anyway with two or three kids behind her. Cos she could never go on her own. Erm no she used to keep herself very much to herself. As we grew up she used to sometimes go a see an aunt of ours. But then we were big enough now to look after the kids for her while she went. Or she'd go to the pictures perhaps. When us kids were growing up now so Well there was myself and my oth younger sister ne the one next to me. Mary she died. It was us two I think what took the brunt of looking after the the younger ones because as I said, my older sister she left Bangor quite young. So it was m myself and my sister Mary really that took care of the rest of them. But then it came natural we didn't take any notice of it, we thought it was what was expected of us you know. Er then my mam said er when when a couple or two or three of us were at work, that she w chucking old man out and she did. She did? Yes she did. And it was I was working, my sister was working in Liverpool sending some money home. Then I was working and my sister Mary started work and my father went out one night and he came back knocked the door and he was drunk as per usual. So my mother calmly said, And I'm not opening the door to you now or ever, she said. And that was it. Never came back. He went to live with his mother. The one whose house I was er born in in still. And er he died there at fifty. He had a heart attack when he died at fifty. Yeah. And he accepted the situation? Well there wa hardly anything else he could do it was a big relief to us wasn't it. Because then they knew that we a couple of the kids were really terrified of him and if they'd only have to hear his his footsteps walking up the street and they'd start to shake. They were petrified. Not that he used to hit us kids he never did. He never lay a hand on any of us children. But he hit my mother instead you know. For no reason whatever. And he wasn't the sort of man what my mother could say, Now look this one's been naughty today will you chastise them? She couldn't she couldn't er talk to him like that you know at all so she had to chastise us. And yet he used to chastise her. Did you find it very puzzling as to why he We did. I could I couldn't understand wh why he was doing it all. You know erm I can't understand to this day why he did it. You can't understand why ? Quite frankly no. No I can't. Cos er she didn't deserve it. She really didn't you know. I mean what would have happened to us kids if if she'd have been like him? We'd have died years ago. Presumably also it placed when he went erm when it placed a bit of a burden on the rest of you to ensure Yes. Yes. Yes. You were aware of that responsibility ? Oh yes. And and we accepted it. Did you? Yes. Because we went b I think I wasn't er a very well child and the doct when I left school the doctor said I left school at fourteen and he said I had to erm find a job out of doors. Now where could you find a job out of doors? So I went to work to the old market place in the high street when it was an old market an open market you know where McKays is now, McKays whatever. Oh yes Yeah? When it was an old fashion open market and erm I went to work there on the fruit and vegetable stall. And I think our wages were about twelve and six a week and then it went to fifteen shillings a week. I think I ended up by having just over a pound a week or something like that. And of course a all that was given to my mother, I us I never used to get nothing back. The whole of it? The whole of it yes. So she was getting oh I'd say about ten bob from my sister in Liverpool and my wages and my sister Mary's m money. So erm and she didn't have him to keep so she was better off that way you know. After the a er after the time when when you began to support your mum Yeah. did you notice any change in her ? Oh she was a much happier person then. Oh yes she was. She was much happier person because this this she'd threatened to do for a long time. That when we grow up grew up to help support the home sort of thing. That she would you know throw him out so that she could just couldn't tolerate him any more. And of course we agreed with her. So because it er as I said it was a relief to her i were a relief to us as children because then we weren't living in in terror of him coming home and you know causing the bother. Do d do you think your father was unusual in Hirael at that time or or was that kind of behaviour by men accepted? Oh it was accepted in them days. Was it? Press that down to make it sto stay. Right, do you want your story then? Yes? Hmm? Hmm The Spider Affair, alright? Knock it off. The first lesson that aft leave it alone and just forget about it hmm? The first lesson that afternoon was mental arithmetic. The girls groaned over this, except the quick ones like Irene who delighted in it, but it meant that there was no need for anyone to open the desk because it was all oral work. Miss Potts was lenient with the girls for it was a very hot afternoon. Daryl was glad that Miss Potts was not as exacting as usual for arithmetic was not her strong point especially mental arithmetic. The next lesson to be taken my mam was to be taken by Mademoiselle Dupont. It was to be a French conversation lesson in which the girls would endeavour to answer all Mademoiselle's simple questions in French. Miss Potts left and Mademoiselle arrived, not quite so beaming as usual because of the heat. She was too to enjoy the hot weather and little beads of perspiration shone on her forehead as she sat down at the big desk opposite the row of girls. Sit down, she said and the girls sat down thankfully feeling that the only lesson they really enjoy that weather would be swimming lesson. The lesson proceeded slowly and hauntingly, the flow of French conversation was not at all brisk on the girls' part and the constant pauses began to irritate Mademoiselle. Ah! She cried at last. It's too hot to make conversation with such stupid ones as you are this afternoon. Get out your grammar books and I will explain a few things to you that will help your conversation if you can get them into your so stupid heads. The girls opened their desks to get out their grammar books. Gwendoline watched eagerly to see what would happen when Mary-Lou opened hers but nothing did happen. Mary-Lou had neither seen the spider nor disturbed it, she shut her desk. All the girls opened their grammar books at the page Mademoiselle commanded then Mary-Lou found she had her English grammar instead of her French one so she reopened her desk to get the right book. What are you doing Mary-Lou? Demanded Mademoiselle who hated desks being opened and shut too often. What are you doing?mm ? I got the wrong book out Probably. Mary-Lou stuffed her English grammar into the back of her desk and pulled out a French one. The spider feeling itself dislodged by the book ran out in a fright. It ran almost up to Mary-Lou before she saw it, she let the desk lid with a terrific bang and gave a heart rendering scream. Everyone jumped in alarm, Mademoiselle leapt to her feet sending a pile of books clattering from her desk to the floor she glared at Mary-Lou what is this noise, Mary-Lou have you gone mad? Mary-Lou couldn't speak, the sight of the enormous spider apparently running straight at her had completely undone her. She scraped her chair away from her desk and stared at it as if she expected the spider to jump through the lid. Mary-Lou! Thundered Mademoiselle, tell me what is the matter with you, I demand it? Oh, Mademoiselle there's a, there's a simply enormous giant spider in my desk leave it alone, you'll just knock it off stammered Mary-Lou quite pale. A spider! Said Mademoiselle, and you make this fuss and call out so loudly that we all jump in fear. Mary-Lou be ashamed of yourself. I am angry with you, sit down. Oh, I, I daren't,M said Mary-Lou trembling, he might come out Mademoiselle, it's enormous. Mademoiselle wasn't quite sure whether she really believed in this spider or not. What with Elissia's deafness last week and one thing and another. Irene giggled, Mademoiselle fixed her with a glare. We will see whether this spider exists or not she said firmly and I warn you Mary-Lou if this is a again a trick and there is no spider you will go to Miss Potts for punishment I wash my hands of you. She advanced to the desk she threw open the lid dramatically Mary-Lou drew in her breath and got away as far as she could looking at the inside of her desk with scared eyes Honey you've moved it too far away haven't you? I can see this is going to be a problem hmm? I can't remember where I've got to now. There is no spider to be seen it had of course retreated to the darkest corner it could find again. Mademoiselle swept the desk with a searching glance and then turned on poor Mary-Lou. Bad girl! She said and stamped her foot. You so quiet and good, you too deceive me. The poor Mademoiselle I will not have it. Mademoiselle do believe me, begged Mary-Lou in despair, for she could not bear to be scolded like that. It was there an enormous one. Mademoiselle rummaged violently among the books in the desk. No spider not one, she said. Tell me where has it gone, if it is still in there? The spider was alarmed by the violent rummaging, it suddenly hurried out from its hiding place and ran onto Mademoiselle's hand and up her arm. Mademoiselle stared at the enormous thing as if she really could not believe her eyes, she gave a shriek even louder than Mary-Lou had given. She was too scared she wa too was scared of spiders and there was a giant specimen running over her person. Irene exploded. That was a signal for the class to enter into the fun and one and all scrambled over to Mademoiselle. Ah, where is it the monster? Girls, girls can you see it? Wailed Mademoiselle. It's here, said wicked Elissia, with her light finger down Mademoiselle's spine She gave a scream thinking that it was the spider running there. Take it off I beg you Elissia, remove it from me. I think it must have gone down your neck Mademoiselle, said Betty, which nearly made Mademoiselle have a fit. She immediately felt sure that it was all over her and began to shiver and tremble. Elissia tickled the back of her neck and she leapt in the air. Oh, la la, la la, what a miserable woman I am! Where is this monster girls, girls tell me where it is gone? There was now a complete uproar in the first form room, Miss Potts again in the second form room was amazingly exasperated. What could her form be doing now, had Mademoiselle left them alone, had they all gone mad? Go on with your maps for a minute she said to the second form who were glancing at one another in astonishment as they heard the noise from the first form room. She left the room and went rapidly to the door of the first form. She opened it, the noise hit her like something solid, worse than breaks she thought grimly. First she could not see any mistress there at all and thought the girls were alone and then she caught sight of Mademoiselle's head in the middle of a crowd of girls, what was happening? Girls! She said. But her voice went unheard. Girls! Irene suddenly saw her and started to nudge everyone. Look out, here's Potty she hissed. The girls flowed back Potty from Mademoiselle as if they were water. Ah ha. In a trice everyone was by her desk. Mademoiselle stood alone trembling wondering what was happening. Where had the monster of a spider gone? Mademoiselle, really, said Miss Potts, almost forgetting the rule the staff had of never finding fault with one another before the girls. I simply cannot think what has happened to this class you've ta when you've . Mademoiselle blinked at Miss Potts. It was a spider! She explained, looking up and down herself. Ah, Miss Potts, but a monster of a spider, it ran up my arm and disappeared. Ah! Seem to feel it everywhere. A spider won't hurt you, said Miss Potts coldly and unfeelingly. Would you like to go and recover yourself Mademoiselle and let me deal with the first form? Ah no, said Mademoiselle indignantly, the class it is good, the girls they came to help me to get this monster of a spider . Who's she? Gwendoline, I think, look it's on her leg. Hmm yes. So big it was Miss Potts. Miss Potts looked so disbelieving, Mademoiselle exaggerated the size of the spider and held out her hands to show Miss Potts it was at least as big as a fair sized frog. The girls had enjoyed everything immensely. What a French lesson! Gwendoline had enjoyed it too, especially as she was the cause of it, though nobody knew that of course. She sat demurely in her desk watching the two mistresses closely. And then suddenly she felt something running up her leg she looked down it was the spider, it had left Mademoiselle a long time ago and had secreted itself under a desk afraid of all the trampling feet around. Now, when peace seemed restored the spider wanted to seek a better hiding place. It ran over Gwendoline's shoe, up her stocking and above her knee. She gave a piercing scream everyone jumped again. Miss Potts turned fiercely. Gwendoline go out of the room, how dare you squeal like that. No, don't tell me you've seen the spider, I'm tired of the spider, I'm ashamed of you all. Gwendoline shook herself violently not daring to scream again but filled with the utmost horror at the thought of the spider creeping over her. It was the spider, she began, it Gwendoline what did I tell you, I will not hear another word of the wretched spider, said Miss Potts raising her voice angrily. Go out of the room! The whole class can go to bed one hour earlier tonight as punishment for this shameful behaviour. And you Gwendoline can go two hours earlier. Weeping, Gwendoline ran from the room. As soon as she got outside she examined herself carefully and trembling to see if she see if the spider was still anywhere about her. Yes. To her enormous relief she suddenly saw it running down the passage, she leant against the wall, how tiresome of that spider to come to her when it might have gone to anyone else. Now she'd got to have a double punishment, still she would soon put it about that Elissia and Daryl had planted the spider in Mary- Lou's desk. How sickening of Miss Potts to pounce on her like that. She couldn't help it if the spider came to her. But perhaps, after all it was a good thing that Miss Potts had come into the room and heard it all. Perhaps Gwendoline might even drop a hint to Miss Potts about Elissia and Daryl putting the spider in the desk. Miss Potts came out of the room at this moment, she eyed Gwendoline with dislike. Miss Potts the spider ran away down there, said Gwendoline pointing anxiously to anxious to get back into Miss Potts' good books. Miss Potts took not the slightest notice but swept into the second form classroom and the door shut. Gwendoline felt very small. Now what was she to do? Stay out here or go back into the classroom, she didn't want to be found out there if by any chance Miss Graining the Head came by. She decided to risk going back, she opened the door and sidled in. Ha! You are back again, and who told you to come? Demanded Mademoiselle now ashamed of her part in the affair and ready to vent her humiliated feelings on anyone she could. You screamed and made Miss Potts white and angry . who did that? Amy I think. Is that how you spell it? No, it's No got two Ts. Well Mademoiselle you screamed, too protested Gwendoline in an injured tone, louder than I did, I should think. Mademoiselle rose to her in her seat and for all her smallness she seemed enormous to Gwendoline just then, her beady eyes Who did? flashed . Mademoiselle. You would be rude to me, Mademoiselle Dupont, you would argue with me Oh dear. A good trio aren't we? Mademoiselle Dupont. You would argue with me who have taught here for twenty years you, you, Gwendoline turned and fled. She would rather stand outside the door all day long than face Mademoiselle when she looked like that . Alright, I think we'd better give up and have some breakfast. Oh, but I only had one. I know but it's late this morning. Oh! Mind the yogurt! That's not fair. It's half past ten. Half past ten Oh! I only had two! I know Mary you've missed Playbus. Yeah I should think you've missed that haven't you? No. What? I should think you've missed it haven't you? No I haven't. Hmm, try it if you like. I like Penny. You like Penny's house do you? Is that still clean? Right. Is that a oh no you've got to, Amy you've got to press the standby button. Ha. Oh, I don't know where the thing is. Over by Daddy There you are it's finished big snails or a snake He looks like Jason Donovan. No it's a little boy isn't it? Yes it's Is that a snake? Ah! He's facing to Amy. Hello. Don't be silly, come on will you get your breakfast. Right, er, Amy what do you want? Sandwiches, Marmite sandwiches. Please. Please. Play with it, stop Are they your Marmite sandwiches? Only two. But why do I have to say thank you? Because it's polite. Oh. Erm, what do you want it in your plate? Pardon, pardon. On my plate yes. Thank you. There's your plate. Terribly awful I think you always yourself Why? Because you don't hear yourself in the same way as everybody else hears you. No Cos I sound hmm, I sound like Amy don't I? heard you. What? Well, you didn't say anything. you you sound the same as there's a lot Well you're saying a lot now. Probably. But tax no, bring a towel I thought I did. I thought I did. Can we get some breakfast, or else we'll get nothing done today at all. Yes. That's for going round with the tape Well, get Amy's then. Yes Let me put a cardigan on for you. I have. Yes well No, it's alright we don't need that, you can drink your orange if you like. You could go and get yourself a knife. You could do something useful instead of just sitting there like a There you go you do that, I put it like that They've told her she's had three years more than what she should of had, she's living on borrowed time, but, erm, she said the ho er good, good support for her though she said he's erm, he's good, I've been trying to phone the Mencap place all morning, I can't get through I, I don't know but you knew about that, there's two open, both They're open Two open, two, yeah and er, didn't say a lot, you know, they keep bringing them round and round these flats don't they? Oh they look nice on the wall they look nice, you know Well we, are we going to the thing tonight? Yeah well we'll have to, I'll have to go and erm get this dinner going because erm, we've got to leave about well we want, well we want to leave for about twenty past five then Yeah, alright because erm well I've done all me work I've only got to get dad's tea, cos that first acts on at ten, at six o'clock Well I should think that'll be funny yeah, it might be couple of us sitting at the back but Reggie, Reggie will come in and go straight to bed, he's been up since about quarter to four yeah so he'll, he'll go straight, more or less down, have his tea and go straight to bed, so I've got to go home and cook this What have you got in there? Who? Little I've just bought him a shoulder of lamb, a breast of lamb, well he to tell me some of them best, I said are there any best it's surprising how people talk to butchers, you know Who wants a biscuit? Sit then, let me see you sit for good, sit, sit Good girl hang on sit oh that's pretty, sit I like Barbara Mm I like Barbara, she's a good girl. She's got a good heart Her heart's in the right place anyway isn't it? She's the same as we've all been treated at home Does she tell any of the, some of the inside secrets? Does she, like the cheques that have been written. I would say Cheques that have been didn't have cheques for five, six thousand pounds, he said said, if I can't come for that typewriter then I've sold it, he said I, I told her if she wanted it she'd got to come and collect it and he said and nobody asked for it, I said well I know can't remember her saying yeah, what's that? I remember her saying I'll have to put my weight back on now I've stopped smoking You will Good boy, there ain't many for you erm, cos you'll all eat biscuits till the Yeah where Who's a good boy? Who's a good boy? There's a cat in your garden, there's a pussy cat in your garden oh dear I'll have to go without the swim I've only got an hour and a half Don't worry about them Who? Them Got to cook it though, I shan't have time to cook it before we go out tonight, then I won't be going out no Renee's getting Makes me wonder what all these people are doing there, there's thousands, twenty three pairs in there one day Well they've worked their lives round these events I suppose, I mean it's not everybody's these people round the horses, horsy world going they erm I had me electric bill this morning Oh god. eighty six pounds Oh my god, well they've estimated mine, it's fifty five pounds eighty, I checked to see the numbers on it and it's a hundred eight still got and it's on more I've used a hundred units more. so next year you'll have to yes, mine estimated, said nine hundred and eighty's, nine, eight, six, four and we've used seven hundred and twenty units or something like that and it was fifty five pound odd, so when I checked it's, it's zero, eight, nine, seven something like that Oh hundred and odd over the top, so it's gonna be doubled that that's mine next one, did I erm, no one sent round Yes they did. he said there's ten, twenty pound notes in that cupboard, I, I I said how much is that he said five hundred pound is that Hello, four twenties no, no, no, fifties Five fifties that's two hundred and fifty no, he said there were ten, he said there were ten, I said oh well that's five hundred quid, I said that leaves you with I said no, today he said I I said you'd better George for some. Said ten, fifty pounds Mm ten fifty pounds are five hundred if they're twenty pounds, did he mean they were ten twenty pounds or ten fifty pounds? No fifty pounds , they were fifty pounds I know he said he'd made a mistake so I thought there were ten and there's only five or something Oh, it's two hundred and fifty pound then He was gonna pay George but I said that one, that one wouldn't next week, it would only pay for that one won't he? Why I said I don't think it matters I said cos I think Are you going to have er Erm, are you going to erm oh I've forgotten what I was gonna say Get him down, sort him out then he's got him poor old thing, get him up he growls at Reggie when he comes up to say ta ta in the morning, if Reggie puts his arm under him, and looks as if he's gonna move him off the bed he, he'll, he'll growl He won't growl at me but he'll grow at Reggie. He does a lot of sneezing Who? Ziggy Yeah, she does Ooh that could be nasty What's up now? Er, you've got a nasty little streak Yes, she has, number one ain't you? You Do you want tea? Ah go and get some plates. Do you, do you want some tea? No Hold still sit still Is that all, is that all there is? You cheater Cos she keeps moving doing that What, oh just loves it here right over the two of them he's a stinker, he's a stinker, he loves to be with the dogs, he loves to be with the dogs, what do you want? Go on then Which ones are they? they're only twenty P a packet she's having another baby that young girl Who? Fred's wife Is she? Yeah, she was in the shop Was Daff pleased with that watch you got her? What? Was Daff pleased with that watch that you got her? Yes, she always wears it Did she like the black face one? I said I'd change it if you liked, she said no I prefer this one she's not very well Who? No, I wonder why, I wonder why she's not well? Mm Do you want tea mother? No thanks She only has one when I make it, it gives me something more to do. Mm Ah You men talk a lot of rubbish Do what? If you, if you had to make the tea as many times in the day as us women did which they all did Ah, ah, ah but, ah but you can't let me see, you don't, you don't remember the war years when I used to be in town while she was out. Ha, I didn't go out that bloody much You went out you Twice a week You went every, every Saturday night you and Harvey for years, several years during the war Not every night Norman, that's a lie I didn't say every night, every Saturday night No Sat you used to work Fridays and I used to go out, no it weren't Saturday night Saturday night you used to go out with Ben, Ben and you and Audrey, during the war, and leave me looking after the kids all of them sitting round the fire. That's what John said last night, we er, all they, all went to bingo five of us went and it boomeranged well if you're going I'll come, if I'm going you're going I'm going and the next thing poor old John had to go out and work look after about eleven kids we enjoyed walking home, I thought he'd gone a bingo, that's funny weren't you going home baby sitting. well I'd left home Can't remember you saying you were gonna baby sit How you doing , how you doing then ah? Benji, Benji what you doing? What you doing then? What you up to boy? Benji buttons, he's spoilt. Ah, well that's cos they're going No Ooh you eat them and get fat. Who would like a little bikkie? Here I will. Do you want a, do you want a digestive or any digestive? Don't mind. He won't hurt if he don't have any more food today that dog. Who? Your little dog. Don't be silly Yeah, he won't have liver don't be silly he loves his dinner at night, don't you darling? He had when I got in last night. I wouldn't feed him that much Poor little devil he's gotta feed No I wouldn't feed him so much I want to watch Gordon Bennett I brought two ticket's here for Ivy and John for the Deacon's, they might as well be members look Er, you had a jelly baby. Come on, come on up, ooh didn't think you could come, do what? He jumped up, do you want a jelly baby? He ain't, he ain't a chocolate eater or sweetie eater you drop it Leave him, he was going Sit Who's that?, who's that? Oh ain't it awful Terrible what are you doing? What are you doing playing cards? Putting out a for you What? we're putting out a for you, we'll make you feel all Here are there's some bingo tickets there for you with a We've been Oh I, we've been You haven't, when did you go? We went Wednesday night Wednesday night You never Yeah you pair of tinkers well we went with Celia Celia asked us Ooh yeah Did you have a win? yeah we sat No Was it you that give us a card? Somebody give us a card and we sent it away and we got a Free entry yeah and perhaps I did No we didn't get free entry this time No we paid sixty P to get in and Yeah we got a free entry that's afterwards Free tickets, here When you went to get the ain't they nice? Yeah, well they're all nice ain't they? Yeah, lovely, ain't it a lovely club, two people Two people ain't it? We went, we nearly rang you last night, we went to see the Batchelors last night Where was that? At, at the ca , at the gala at Wellingborough and it was their opening night, there was a band on called Me and Him Oh yeah and they did all sing along stuff and Chas and Dave stuff Oh isn't it lovely oh really Oh yeah the Batchelors were one and then the Batchelors come on I've seen them just erm Deck, Don and erm Con and Deck Yeah Yeah but erm, and we had a lovely night didn't we? Yeah Some woman called the Bogey and they called her, they said to her, will this Mrs come up we want, we want to sing it's her What oh they booked her Poor devil, they got her on the stage and they said you know, when they what, what have you done wrong tonight? tonight she said I'm called a Bogey, so he said Come on oh have you, so he said well when you call a Bogey he said you get this so he, he give her a big pink elephant I think Tortoise tortoise thing with a lid on then he opened it and filled it with She says, I haven't got to drink that have I? She said oh yeah so of course he had a last slurp of and he spit it all over everywhere and erm, and then every time the poor women went to get off stage he says oh Joan you can't go, come here, let's, he said we can't just give you that so he, he called her back and they bought give her a rabbit He's done that give her a rabbit yeah then he give her a, a, a chocolate easter egg, then he give her a bunny Then he told her to well get off the stage then then he give her a bottle of champa then he told her, he kept calling her back back, yeah, and he give her a bottle of champagne then he called her then he called her Bogey yeah, just the first one in their new opening cos it then we had the girls called Blue Flames didn't we? And then he gave her a great, a great big bouquet didn't he? Yeah, then we had the Blue Flames, the young girls who does the pom pom dancing and er yeah what's his name off the radio erm, the, the famous singer Simon no erm, John Edwards No No its on, on Northampton going gold records on the morn on Saturday morning, erm Oh I know who you mean, er oh, what's his name er he's on, he's on er he used to be a singer I forget what's his name now Yeah Northampton radio, yeah, so er we went at half past five, we didn't get home till half past ten oh lovely evening weren't it? really long way It is a long way, yeah, yeah, but still, I mean if you don't have a win for a few weeks then you have a hundred pound it's ha Yeah help all round us. And my lucky bloody number one and three left me Ooh well bugger me, who? Say, he's won a couple of hundred Yes The woman next to me she won a hundred and then there was an old boy who'd won fifty, then the old boy won four hundred didn't he, he was a lucky boy Said she'd she'd never seen it so busy though I had Elsie go on a Wednesday night no every night now, every nights are getting busy now cos the Yeah Sunday night's nearly a, nearly as good Mm Bloody hell. shall pay some good money out on a Sunday night, it's more than weekday don't they? Yeah Yeah , I er it's what It's a lovely club though innit? It is lovely, yeah Everything, I mean if you go in the afternoon and you go early you can have a lovely dinner for fifty P Well the girl yeah that girl that came with us, she had, I mean as a rule I, I don't have came with us Oh did she? Yeah Yeah and, cos she lived next door to Celia Oh does she? down Queen's Street and er Celia's erm niece, you know who Celia is don't you? Its the Italian job you know er Jack Jack I er Jack the girl had it and it looked really nice in Jack daughter Oh is she? Yeah Yeah Oh, oh daughter yeah She works with Oh and er now what I so you went did you? and er, I had this er pizza and Oh yeah and it looked very handsome, it, was bloody lovely and the woman across the way she had oh she had a Spotted dick with custard spotted dick with custard it looked bloody handsome and the chips look lovely don't they Yeah, they do, everything, and, and and you could go Sunday and have a beer You know, I had the best lager Carlsberg, it was only one thirty yeah, yeah and it's one eighty you know anywhere else I know Yeah, well some of it you're getting a little bit cheaper don't know what to do here, yeah Yeah we enjoy it but it's just such a long drive It's so nice and clean It is a long way innit? These friends from up north are coming for the weekend, so we're going out for the weekend Going where? Out Out Oh Ely Ely Are you? Mm Ely, Cambridgeshire? mm They phoned me from Mencap again this morning to see if I had any, had any lifting experience Oh did they? mm oh so it's set pardon me. Well I think it's just a matter of erm getting, getting in Well it, it's like a lot of these places, they start you if they think you've had experience and all that, but it don't always work as well as them that ain't had experience. Oh they, on the last interview I went to they said you no need to have had experience Oh we don't necessarily need you to have had it experience oh Hello my little girl,she was getting It's a sense of er, well common sense innit? Not more than Yeah well Yeah Ah, but I mean you do you ain't gonna get the experience, I phoned this job line that's been advertised on the telly this week and erm it's like second chance, you can go and have erm experience, get experience I don't know if that's enough choice is it? I shouldn't think it is. This is the eighteenth, twenty eight, twenty nine, thirty, thirty three, thirty seven, yeah, forty two Is it? Gosh on there. Er, a bloke across the road from us, he got a job up there in Northampton radio, Thursday morning, he says they give, had no end of jobs on the radio Oh Do they? yeah they do yeah they do, yeah not you know Ralph yeah, Thursday morning, is it a certain morning, is it Thursday? Thursday I think so, yeah mm Yeah Thursday morning, yeah Mm, you'll wanna listen Thursday mornings Oh you There's quite a lot of things happening on there, we never have it on, but I have had it on and there now, they say so and so's got something for sale or Oh yeah you know yeah we have got that in Jersey yeah or somebody's looking for this or somebody's looking for that That's right, yeah good idea isn't it? Oh yeah Did they do your boiler? No I'm fed up and I've got to have a new board, electrical board Oh nine, nine, nine Three cards three cards I can't see, ten, ten, ten that's what I've been waiting for that ten, ten do it again Oh can't see the cards that did you know? is it? Yeah, oh I'll split them up I think That seeing you, asked us to go over ever so many time and I thought yeah well damn me, we will go this time. Mm Yeah I thoroughly enjoyed it I did. It was like a five star hotel Better than being in bed than that dirty yeah well. Were ever so well at first and then Yeah he moved right off That's two lines all the way don't they? Soon goes don't it? Mm Yeah , one they had a lot there, you know. good prizes really ain't there I mean the afternoon's good, cos the play, pay good money in the afternoon as well yeah about a hundred and eighty pound innit? yeah that's two lines as well, I mean if, if you only have a tenner it pays for your afternoon out well of course it's just a long drive over there two, one card yes, er yeah, two to one card we had a hundred and twenty, were, were, and a, and a drink and that and then we spent fifteen quid didn't we? Mm mm So it weren't bad really, we had three of each like, you know. It's no dearer than going to the Ritz, it's just the journey Just the petrol innit? Yeah well I mean in six on there, twelve Six, twelve, three, this is, is nice if you can get out there, John's deal. Yeah, yeah it's a nice afternoon out, I mean we had a lovely dinner when we went didn't we, first time we went Yeah we had , we had How much was that? Sixty P Yeah you have a soup and then you have erm I thought you had a what we had a nice, a nice thick slice of a nice thick slice of corn beef, carrots, cabbage and mash potatoes all in scoop full you know mm and gravy, then if you want spotted dick and er yeah coffee and that to follow oh yes but erm, I mean you can get everything there on Sunday you've really no need to cook, cook at all, I mean you could go over there and have a meal for about two pounds fifty oh you don't have to wait with me, oh no that's a, that's the beauty of it it's all computerised, it's lovely, I love it yeah. There, there'll the old er hand things were playing up, those atmospherics and er the old boy Oh yeah, mm the old boy that does the telly bingo you know? yeah He was calling the, through his mike pretty, pretty clear and all, I mean that linked one that come from Kettering and that was as plain as plain plain, yeah and that hands, you know. oh I know, I mean they There's all microphones in the roofs as well over there mm in the ceiling don't matter where you sit they have a cabaret every Saturday night yeah don't know who's on this week, the Baron Knights were on a fortnight ago weren't they? Erm, it's erm Renee and Renata Renee and Renata Is it? Yeah yeah Hardly worth going then Saturday night oh They're my old favourites, I used to love it Yeah I like him, mm you don't pay nothing, we paid seventy P to see the Batchelors but it was you in, in, you know, your in Yeah, entertainment ad admission ticket yeah, yeah I mean you pay seventy P to go in anyway Oh then we had a glass of champagne, no a glass of sherry when we went in Yeah didn't we? and we had erm, and we had er a bottle of champagne on the table the Isle of plonk, you know, gala champagne Where is this place then? You know the corner, you know where the police station is in Wellingborough? Yeah oh by the Odeon? You go down to the , that's right Oh yeah yeah well we went out there won't we, when it was the Odeon? Don't know. Yes you don't you remember me saying look at this bugger, when we used to go up, the Lerrick not the Odeon Yeah, but I still yeah the old Lerrick weren't it? Mm I said well bugger me I'd go day and night, I love it getting left behind mate Yeah I'm afraid so, it's like being under a bloody hand out, you know, erm, got a good hand yet it's queer Eight, nine, ten, Jack I knew I should of laid that bloody nine and Jack stupid person Who's laying on my feet, you're lovely and warm Ziggy, Ziggy, Ziggy It gets dark You've got to make something of their little lives ain't you? Yeah Yeah Only she's been out in the garden nearly all morning. She went out shopping in the car with me Did she? Yeah She drove me crazy though She did yeah all the washing flapping on the line er, a, I stripped me bed you see and washed everything and me thick duvet cover if that, once goes on the dirt it's hell of a job Mm to get it in again and the wind would carry things away where are you going ? I lost one, er a good towel and I thought well I've had that I bet it's over Larry's Oh come on come here I went upstairs and had a look and couldn't see and er bloody hell, shuffling like a buggery here, I just can't make a bloody hand and then I saw it over, another fence in, the next door Oh and every time I ran out she run after me, getting me feet oh fun innit? oh dear I've got to start I've still packed up smoking Good I ain't had one since Sunday night. Oh jolly good I said to mum I think off when we went bingo and I was smoking John started coughing and you think it's got to be these fags cos you don't normally cough no no and he politely said no it ain't, so, but I know well I was like this innit? yeah In the morning ain't we yeah, it's a after we've been up the club we know we've had especially when you've been around it to, ooh Frank is sitting near Dave cos he had his fag Yeah, love right under his nose, don't he? Yeah Oh look at that, would you bloody credit it, look Ooh John, you'll want that one, worse than that our kid pick the sod up, look I've just picked the bloody hand up there, you poxy thing Oh that's it Here yeah fifteen, twenty four sacrifice what he got? thirty, forty five, fifty, sixty, Wendy heard any more about her car? seventy, eighty, ninety, one hundred Steve he's sold it has he? Who's that? Ivy Ivy Oh He's got it and sold it has he? he's took it and sold it, yeah Who? Robert Robert's took Wendy's car and sold it, he pinched it Sunday afternoon Oh, she was round Kim's erm I haven't seen her since Monday I, I, thought that's what happened. Well it's ju I feel I thought it would awful now she's got a bloody secret switch and a crook lock and dear oh dear, and she said to me well they can get these crook locks, they've only got to a, they've only got to bend the steering wheel, I said will you give them another ten minutes they've got to make some banging to knock it round Course they have. She's, she just, it complacent you see, you've gotta you got to Gonna be like you can't be like that, on things like that. Stupid bugger. Yeah. If I'd of been there I'd of flogged that a long while ago and got rid of it Yeah I know, that's what I said , that's what we all said he's got to come down and cross her though surely he does, he should well rotten sod funny side, I can see him getting away with it Well they do don't they? They don't it? Yeah He hadn't better get in my way when I'm going down there I'll string him, I'll make a bastard out of it There laughing now He did yeah and now they feel adamant don't they? Yeah Yeah They really do yeah, you know he's got to have somebody behind him, cos he ain't man enough to do it on his own though No oh well Joy No, cos he knows he'll piss off, I know Barry used to take the piss at him Don't know Joy he used to come round alright I'm adding up, even if I am adding up I thought you said you've had enough I'm adding up where am I? Oh I'm You're carrying the pan of three at the minute. Didn't our cricketers do well ah? Yeah, they done really well. Considering half the buggers are oh Can't stand Ian Botham Can't you? No I hate him No, I never used to like him , no I hate him but I do a bit more now, I think he's I tell you what he does a bloody lot for charities don't he? Yeah, but I think all the things they said about him were true, I hate the man I do. About what? Taking drugs and having other women and all that sort of them I mean Well they're all the same That's a lie I don't know that's, they all say and do that bugger anyway don't they? But he's still a bloody fine sportsman and no more than that did you see Elizabeth Taylor? Yes I did Didn't she look a the lies they said about her Yeah Yeah , luckily enough she's just been able enough to do her own thing ain't she? Yeah, done well here she said, er Oh dear, I don't know what to chuck here Con I don't care what you chuck have an eight an eight, mm, wrong colour, oh when I wanted the bugger last time I couldn't see it, could I? Something, ten here. Now then if you give me one of these here I might Sit down Mm, ain't here much at all I got up at eight this morning when Rudy went and put all them towels out and erm, when I got up at ten it, they were all dry Yeah, I done some wash this morning got it dry whilst it yeah so did I got it dried in no time at all, three sixes, but they're not to erm it went twice didn't it? What? That er Yeah, I thought I make twenty I make it ace, no thank you oh you little beauty, just what the doctor ordered no six is erm, nine, ten, Jack, queen I've played that and a seven and ten what about that? oh yeah, I didn't see that idiot, right, I'll give you eight, that means I'm having Look at that, all out, I know that goes Joy No I don't blame you Is it eleven years today she It's twelve years ago Twelve years today is it? Yeah. Twelve is it? Bloody hell Good grief they all were you? mm dancing, don't seem that then does it? No Don't seem like, cos somebody said erm er, the date on the paper I thought that, that must of been twenty odd years since dad died then. Yeah it must be. Can't you remember when he died granddad? I can't remember Sixty six Sixty six? Mm That's twenty six years ago Yeah must be the year I met Rudy Is it? Yes it's nineteen sixty six and I'm going nineteen sixty seven, Mrs died nineteen sixty-seven and all No and May died nineteen sixty eight or nine, they all died round about the same time No, mind you mm it's bed time I know, I wish I had better take the dog out bottoms I suppose in a minute eight, nine, ten , can't be bad last card innit? it can't be that bad Ooh, ooh look at that ah, ha, ha, ha, ha whey up Better than nothing. Better than nothing You soon gobbled that up My stomach's been bad Have you tried them chips? Can't eat chips, I was so hungry last night, I never had no food and when I went in You should and when I went in that lavatory, there's seven on there, when I went in that lavatory I, I Are you alright John? Shall I do it? No no, I'm finished now. It only wants milk and stirring. That's it now Oh well you're a good stirrer. We'll let you do the stirring. Where's dads? That one there. Is he in? Oh yes he's watching Errol Flynn isn't he? Oh. That's enough. we've got enough milk thank you. Eh? Said my, the milkman don't do bad. My, my ordinary milkman Stan , he's off That's yours. That's mine. gone to for a fortnight. Ooh. Which is Ivy's? And the other one well he's America for a fortnight. Oh. So they don't do so bloody bad do they? No. Just have want anything with this. No. We'll have a bit of cake I think. Shall I fetch it? . Feel as stiff as a board. Er when Maureen met this girl and she found out she lived in Manchester common. They got talking like, this is when they were on holiday. And she said you'll never guess Angie how we had two fellas tried to latch on to us. Now do you want a bit of cake Ivy? Yes please. Just a little bit Con. But she said th he th he was just like erm Rossiter. Oh! Oh . Oh and she said that he was revolting. Here you are John, bit of cake. And she said it didn't matter what you said or you know, you couldn't put them off like. Do you wanna bit of cake Joy? No thanks. But they were awful. Couldn't have got much worse could Yeah you could. Ken . Oh Christ! Oh! Yeah . Yeah. Oh my god yeah! Did you take dad's tea for him? Yeah. Take his cake did you? Mm, no. Oh. How could I? You hadn't cut it you soft sod. Oh my god . Wh wh wh who dealt? I did. Your go. You dealt? No. Four of spades. I'm sure that bloody corset did me more harm than good. had it on long enough Ivy. Well I've had it on three days John. What, all the time? No not, not in the evening. Is it me to go? No, it's me. Oh look! Who's here? Mm. Ooh I've just seen hand. He's Oh you little baby. Have you got an'and Mm. Jack queen king. Three aces. that'll be okay. A nice bit of cake. Mm. Mm, lovely bit of cake. Somebody didn't Who's this off again? Dunno. Oh bloody hell. Got several . Gotta be lucky at something ain't you Ive? Mm. They can be lucky in lo love. You've gotta have something out of bloody life . Just a minute. Didn't like that one. What's erm, oh! Oh dear. Mhm Got nothing my darling. I'm out. Here you are. Hey. Oh you ain't. You're a pain I am. in the pissing arse you are. Well I'm sorry. Where you going? Bloody pain in the arse. Give her some change. Forty one. I don't know. There's plenty of change. Here you are. Eighteen twenty eight thirty thirty eight, forty five. Fifty three, sixty two, sixty five, sixty eight. What do you want my darling? Your mum's got the biscuits. Here you are. L look at that Oh. and couldn't pick up the sodding two. Thirty five. I got both of your twos of diamonds. Forty. it's your deal. Forty fifty sixty seventy four eighty ninety five isn't it? Pay up and shut up. Put up or shut up. Where's my bubby? When you think Liz Taylor's had eight bloody husbands. If we did that we should be called prostitutes wouldn't we? Oh yeah. I reckon we were born too early Ive . Yeah. Or lucky bastards, one of the two. Unlucky I would have said. Yeah, bloody unlucky. Mm. Yeah. Well, I thought I'd got a bloody good hand there. If you keep this up Connie you're in er Oh, I have got some doubles again. Ooh. God. Gaw! That's a double and that's a double and that's a double. Look at that! Ooh . Gaw look, oh that's the same. What a shame. Oh I've got no end of doubles. You have! King. Gotta get rid of that. Oh I've got a few more you'll like yet. Oh look at that. Right. Bubby Benjy Benjy, wanna bikky? Where is he? They all come . Benjy. Come here. Hang on. Hang on. Hang on Sloopy Sloopy hang on Thank you. Look at that. Oh come on. Play the white man. And another one like that. doubles anyway. You know our little dog, it stood at the door. It knew we were coming here you know, bless it. Forty. Mm. She stood at that door waiting Jack on there. with her head to put her thing on and I said you ain't gotta go . Ah! You've gotta go in the, in your box you have. It ain't so bad when they can go out. Mm. Never mind. She wouldn't have hurt. They'd bloody play in here alright. Jack She'd been carrying on outside all morning and Oh yeah. so I thought well she Does she go out on her own? Yeah. Out the back. Does she? Mm. So I thought well she she'll, she'll be Ooh two of the bastards out. I thought I was gonna hand there. Six seven eight. Pardon me. I've just took me blooming jacks. make. Oh bloody hell. Ten jack queen and three twos. Ooh. Bloody hell. Oh dear. Here you are then. Benj. He's gone. Benjy. Two three four. Benjy. Here you are. I didn't call you, my treasure. Your mummy called you. Last card. Eh! Well I had two of the bastards. That's why you got it. Mm! Here you are. Jack is that over there? I've got it. Just picked it up look. There. There. Oh. Some folks get all the luck. You'd better lay it sensibly now. Yes. Two threes or two twos. Else you'll be in real trouble. Two threes or two twos. Five six seven eight. Well I'm just just . Oh. Six over there isn't it? Oh no! Ah! No it's Oh I'll that one out then. No. Oh you wicked sod. No I'll . No, you, you frit me to death Con. I thought you were gonna put that bastard down . got the I've just counted mine. Thought somebody was sure to be out. Two three four six seven a big'un. I ain't got nothing. Hang on hang on hang on. Ten jack queen five six seven eight nine Go and see your mother. Six seven eight. Here you are That's, that's what I thought she was gonna put on there when she put the six Fifty eight. No. Fifty eight. Six, that's naughty. He's had that Joy. Here you are. He's like a bloody s ferret under here. Thank you. Oh dear me. Sixty eight seventy eighty eight Three for me. Sixty eight seventy eighty eight ninety eight. Hundred and two three forty four John out. Ivy, got yours. And it's who's deal? My deal. Who won? Jimmy. Don't they feed you up your house? Getting ready for his dinner this time of night. Them at the have asked Barry if he could fit them a box over their electric meter . Yeah. Put them up a what? A box. You know around his Er at where they have the ca the er Oh I don't know About as big as that picture frame there. So he s he said to him how much will it be? Said oh that's alright, we've got some friends coming down this weekend, we'll come in for a bar snack. Alright? He said yeah, fine. I said you ought to have said Sunday lunch. Yeah. Cos he's supplying the wood. Well, you're doing alright now, you've got all the cards. Have I gone silly? Mm. Oh no. Yes they come out lovely they did Mm. that first few and then er, then you went all to pot. I know. Why? Mm. Why?! Why? Mhm. Why oh why? There you go mum. We seem to live on tea and more tea until the next cup of tea comes round don't we? Mm. Yeah. Dee she do tea. Who? Dee. Dee. Does she? Yeah she's fond of her tea. That is Ben's daughter lives at erm whatever Treetops. Yeah I Oh yeah. phoned her yesterday. Oh. I said I says Mrs speaking Is that my three? Yes. and said er I said who am I speaking to. She said oh she said, Ben's daughter. Oh. Elaine. I said oh I said well we'll be very pleased to come if we're both still alive then. I said you know we're Ben's age as well. Said oh dear. Mm. I ought to be going there anyway. Eh? I ought to be going there. Yeah. Wish you were cos you could go in my old man's place. Poor old Ben. He's been a good friend to me during the war when we Yeah. Been good to me and all, through my life. Mm. Well and before the war. Er er if ever anybody needed doing anything it was always Ben weren't it? Yeah. Nice old boy, Ben. Mm. Oh dear. Do you remember when I come home from er Welwyn and I, I had to go to court? Oh it's over there. And he came over and took me didn't he? Yeah. A friend in need is a friend indeed . I get mixed up with them. There's Ben, Leonard Matthew's dead. Sam's dead. Oh yeah Sammy. Yeah that's the one I used to get mixed up with. Sam's dead. Died. Dot died, his wife. Died in childbirth. Who? Dot. Oh, Sam's wife? Mm. Really? Ought to have seen them walking down North Road. Mm. Oh dear oh dear oh dear. Longed for a baby didn't she? Then when she had one Yeah. she died. I remember her having it. Mm. There were no need for that. Oh dear. You must have something, surely. Oh Christ. I keep forgetting they've put that bloody thing down. I'd like that, but it's no good to me. I'm gonna put that bugger on before I forget it again. What's that? This bastard here. That's three times that's gone round. Oo er. Look. Hang on I've had a I've had a fitter there. You've got a shitter. I'd better, I'd better put that that down as that. Nine then Jack. jack. Yeah. No what have I got? What have I got? Yeah I've got a jack under there. That's right. That's right, yeah. That's right, and three kings. Now I've got nine and eight. And then out. Who's that sneezing? Poor old dog. Seven on there. That bloody three before I forget it again. A bloody three before I forget it. Ah. Now then. Hello! Hello Benjy. Mm. Lovely tea. Yeah. That's bloody nice. And that. Oh my god, look at that. That's put the mockers on that, you've took them both. Mm. Don't know what to do. Yeah you're right. She'll be sightseeing again. A nine. Be seeing a pigging card come now, now I've split them up. You little sod! Three. How about that? Six. Aha. Don't you want the other one? Ask her. Did you? Yeah. You're saucy. Oh I thought you'd get it. I had the other one. Hundred and four. Twelve Joy. Twelve? Six fifty six. Sixteen. So fifty eight sixty eight seventy four. Johnny? No, out. It's my deal isn't it? Yeah, your deal. These chairs are hard. Mm. They are hard aren't they? When I win that national I shall buy new table and er Oy soft chairs. We ain't had much lately at bingo have we? No. Had none hardly. Well I think it comes and goes with everybody don't it? Don't know. My mate goes five times a week and she ain't had nothing for over twelve months. No . Nearly hundred pound a week she spends on it. Coo! Oh dear. Mm. There you go. How about that for a ? That's rubbish. I tell you what, they ought to hang the bloke that dealt these. Yeah, he ought to be hung. And drawn and quartered I think. Ooh bloody hell John. Do any better don't bother dealing. Pardon me for being so rude. Oh dear oh dear, John. How's Wynn ? Ever so poorly. Is she? She's been going for that ra is it radium? Is she going? Mm. Yeah. Oh! She's on morphine anyway. Poor old Wynn. Yeah, sounds er They told, Diane told me the other night though, she's had three years that she shouldn't have had. She's been living on borrowed time for a long while. Hello! Hello Benjy, how are you doing? Where's your dad? Where's your dad? He upstairs when we went in last night. Did he? Straight on the bed. Rudy was shattered, he'd been up f since four the morning before. Mm. I don't know how he keeps going you know. No. Got a lot of erm he's got a lot of er erm energy. Energy. Yeah. Mm. Two three four five six How are you doing? Now then John. With a bit of luck you might go down this time. Oh bloody hell. Yes I thought you would. Suppose he's had good training for that while he were playing. Nightclubs and that. Different hours you see. Mm. Oh yeah he's You take it all in your stride then don't you? Oh yeah. You seem to. I don't know this one dear god. Mhm. England's last hope just gone. . Mm. we shan't get them out now. Unless I get a joker. Nine, oh dear. Snap. Snap. No good getting down now I'm only out er got hundred and four. Might as well go out big mightn't we? Mm. Ninety five I'm out so that's fifty five. Oh my god, let me have a look. Oh would you believe it, I want one card twice here. Do you? Yeah. Oh that's knackered it. Well I think I'd better don't want none of these burpers so might as well get rid of them. Oh dear oh dear. Don't want them. Put a seven on there. Oh and that went didn't it? Never mind, I've got six cards. Mm. Oh yeah. Stupid person. I'm waiting for it to go down and all, I've got the eight. Why didn't you tell me then? Ooh three two jokers. Well I thought you didn't wanna go below a certain amount. Oh. Last card. That gives me eight. Oh I've got That's a fitter and that's a fitter so I might as well Is that thing still on? Mm it is. What? That thing. Oh Christ. That's still on. Is it? Mm. Say they'll learn something from this lot. Mm. They'll er they'll wonder what the hell we're playing I expect. Oh strewth. I know. I don't know I ain't seen any of these. what I'd do without you Oh my Oh that'd be better. Que que que and te te te te te te Eight. Eight. Yeah. Three. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's what Right. One more to go. Drat! No I just suddenly thought. Oh! I just got shot of that king. Mm. Never mind. I'll put me other two on there. . You said I was short didn't you? Blooming aces. Silly billy. You've just had that one. seven. that one. Thump thump thump. There was a method in my madness. Oh yeah. Ooh pardon me. Come on kid hit me with a left and a right This don't go does it? No. No, but that one does. Seven Oh. and a five. Ooh two. Two? Two Twenty eight. fifty eight twen seventy four ninety four hundred and two six? Six, yeah. Hundred and one My deal innit? Yeah. Is it? I guess so. Or John's? No, I just dealt them didn't I? Did you deal that Mm. rubbish, yes. Didn't you see the load of crap he got? Once in a while when you're lonely a bit Did you see that chap playing Misty this morning on the piano? Played it lovely. What, on the telly? Mm. No I don't watch telly any more. I'd like to but I can never watch any more, he's always got the Well I work while it's on. C B on and If I put me country and western records on I just done and dance with the dog all morning. I don't do nothing. He goes I swing him round, his head goes I say dance with mum. Poor little devil. I drag him round. I'd dance with my dog but he's so bloody heavy though. Th th that's a good programme on the light from about half past nine till twelve, you know. On the light programme? Yeah. Which one's that? Er it's what's his name? B B C two. Yeah. B B C two. I think that's thirteen, is it? Well I dunno, two four six seven eight nine ten eleven twelve thirteen fourteen. Fourteen. Just take the top one off. Two four six seven eight nine ten eleven twelve thirteen. Twelve. Why the hell have you got this Thirteen. pigging joker? Stop your chops and get on with your dealing. Come on Dolly, do your dealing. Did you deal them all? What's his bloody name? He u used I did. to do early morning show. He took over. Er Er th I er Da Davison? Jamieson? No er He's got a beard. Oh dear Ken On erm Ken yeah that's it. Bruce? Bruce, yeah. That's it. Yeah. I like him. Oh I used to listen to that for ages. Mm. I like him I do. He, he has some lovely records. Good, good choice, you know? I listen to Oh you sound like N N Norman Wisdom . Sounded just like Norman Wisdom . Or that bloke at the club making his mouth go go funny Ooh that hey that's, that bloody bloke who at the club that you Norman Collier? No that bloke that comes up there. Have you been John? No, I'll chuck away. Hang on. Who's that? Him that him that calls on the bloody bingo . He says all the frees, firty free. Yeah. And Who is that? Where's that at? Is he, is where, at the Beacon And he's Oh! free and four, firty four. He he's a spastic though isn't he? I don't know. Is he? Oh, I didn't know. I think one of them's in a wheelchair. Oh well, you shouldn't make fun. Well I never see him. I well I er i it was just he he sounded like a ponce to me. You know, and he says sisth and two, sisthy two. Oh bloody hell. Well I admire him if he's Well he he Yeah I'm sure he's erm Mm. spastic. Mm. I saw a wheelchair there one day and I know Oh. they were saying they were gonna introduce spastic people oh. into the club. Well, jolly good. I know one night that we were there and it said Mr is upstairs Yeah. and I thought they were gonna say beam them up Scottie . Then all of a sudden the whole fire alarm went ee oo ee oo ee oo Ooh all the way round the room. You'd never heard nothing And everyone And all the run to a different door. And all the all the boys run he said it's just it's just to tell you just to show you how efficient that er our callers would be in a fire. Oh. Yeah? Yeah I'm gonna have, sod it I'm Don't blame you. Ooh you bugger. Thought I were gonna get that one. Oh, you can have that one. No I've got it. Eight jack. Oh my gawd. That's alright. What are you t moaning about John. What else do you want in love? Eight nine ten jack, ooh! A que Que A que. And eight, eight of yeah. Thought we might see Pam today. She finishes work at half past er twelve on a Friday. though. No I suppose they have plenty to do. She's always working. Pam don't stop working. No. No I expect she's got the club tomorrow morning. She didn't have it Oh has she? last week so she'll be no doubt be there this week. Mm. Three cards. You are a Oh that would have gone wouldn't it? Does she do it every weekend? No, not every weekend. They didn't do it last weekend. Mm. They did, they did it in the evening but they're not in the, didn't do it the morning. Mm. I'm gonna put that one on to see if I can get me score down. Well I've just chucked me bloody jack. Well that's a shame isn't it? swine. Mm. Oh I don't care though. Look at that. Don't care . And look at that. Seventeen. Thirteen. Two hundred and twenty one. Thirteen? Hundred and fifteen. John out. Oh fifteen, twenty five, thirty four, forty one, forty seven, fifty, fifty six, sixty six Your deal Con. ninety eight. Think you're gone. Two eights are sixteen. Yeah, you're gone. Just. Got them, picked them jacks straight up, never picked nothing else up. N not a thing. No. You're in it with me. Hundred and twenty one. Hundred and fifteen, hundred and one. Who won? Jimmy. Take the money out of my purse. What for? If I'm in. If I'm in? You're on to me tonight, you are. Who? This silly sod I've got here. Pardon me. Ooh dear. Oh! Bless you. No. Jeez! No, I've got one but I don't want another one. Oh my god, look at that. That's no good. Oh I don't know, if that one come up it would be, oh it's not now. We had a lovely singsong last night, didn't we mum? Yeah. Mm. Who went? You and ? Erm me and mum and er just me and mother. Oh. Three Mother! Do with that one bad. Oh I can't sling that now, then I'd have two John. Wrong one. She always slings my card just at the wrong time. One too many short again John. I might as well pack this hand up. You're slinging all my cards. Yeah. Did that to me last time. I never got nothing. Picked three jacks up hoping there'd be a joker. Oh you awkward sod. Picking up what . Well I ain't. She's slinging everything I wa want and can't get nothing. Picked it up. Just picked a joker up. Well you're just bloody lucky. Mm, you're joking of course. I want that. Ooh pardon me. That's three bloody cards on the trot I've picked up which I'm . Seven. Four five six seven eight. Have I told you lately that I love you . That's a king is it? No I ain't got that one. Wrong one. Oh I've got that bugger now. No I didn't. clubs. Jesus wept. Jack follow the leader. two three four. Got nothing. And that's no good now. That's Well look at that bugger. She's putting all my buggers I want. Last card. Little demon. Come on, your last chance now for your uncle John. Wondering what to chuck you John. There you are, how about that one? Jack. Wrong colour. Is it? Mm. Oh Jesus wept! I've just had you. That's how it goes. I know that. It's no bloody good if you can't get down. Mm. I wish I hadn't changed me hand now. Oh dear oh dear. got that four look. You're out John. . Chuck that bugger over here. . Can't make four. Oh I've just got three. That don't fit. That don't fit. Ain't you down yet? Am I buggery. Don't look like I've just got nothing. getting down. Not with this bleeding hand. Me neither John. Me neither. Look at that. Let's have a count up. Fifteen All my cards are gone. Twenty six thirty pigging I shall die with these in me hand. Ah look at that! Well! Three twenties I think they're both gone but I'm not too sure. and a pigging two. Would you credit it? Well. Pay up John and look pleasant. It must come soon. One of these buggers must. Oh that's that king. Oh dear. Now I might get a king. Oh no! Would you bloody credit it? Eh? Three twos and two twos. Three threes and two twos. I can't remember whether this one's gone. I reckon. ? No. No they're gone. I've got the bugger here. Give me it. That don't make no difference. Oh I only want one pigging card to make forty. Seven. No. bugger. I've you all up and There. Would you bloody credit it? Not that two again? That bastard . Ah! That's the one I wanted. Look at that. bloody I know. That's how it goes. well I ain't got I ain't got a sodding hand. Oh I'm gonna split these bastards. You'll see the bleeding thing come now. Would you bloody credit it, eh? I bet it comes. King of hearts John. Yeah that's another bugger bit the dust. No. Well, you wouldn't believe it would you? I've got three nines. Ha. That's all I've got. Look at that. I had them three jacks. Picked them all up when I bought. Never got another thing. I've got nothing else look. Well would you credit it! They're gone. I think they're both gone. I think you slung them both. Yeah that's the trouble innit? Any bastard jack bar that one. I've got a jack and all. Gaw Jesus They'll have to wait for us to get out. Yeah. I reckon you want the same as me mate. Do you? Mm. That's why we can't get down. I've just split me sevens up and bloody seven come. Yeah I've just split me nines up and buggers oh no That's a that's a fitter. I don't want that bastard. Seven. No. Don't know why I'm bothering. Oh Jesus! Flaming bloody hell. religious . Gaw gee whiz. Well. I don't believe it. All that bloody crap I've had. Nine ten jack. Nine ten king. None of them fit. None of them fit. Where's all them pigging I don't I don't believe this. big'uns gone to. Well I took three sevens out. Yeah. I thought well I'll sling me sevens out, keep me sixes. Oh Christ. Look at that. Yeah they're all following each other round . What do you want John? I'll try and help you. Well I've split my bloody That's and all. I know but I can't keep can I? No. I've gotta make something. Well. I don't know what I'll get on. I dunno whether I'm gonna make a hand out of. I I tell you one thing, once I go down I I'm out. I I just can't make bloody forty. I can't believe it. Stupid person. Four sixes, twenty four twenty four twenty eight twenty nine thirty one thirty bloody nine. Would you credit and I got the bastard . Oh now what am I gonna do? Twenty four twenty eight twenty nine thirty going over we stand a chance. Hey that's that king there. Come on, get him in. I know. I've gotta get him in in a minute. Oh would you credit it eh? That bugger goes and that one goes. I can't chuck any away. I know. I'm a bit li I'm like that at the minute. Is it for me to go? No. No. I've got to chuck away yet. Oh. I don't know what to chuck though. Oh some bugger's put that on now haven't they? I'll chuck that one then. Yeah. If only I could make forty. I could go down. Right out. Oh I don't believe it. Oh I don't believe here they come John. Oh dear. Oh here they come. Buggered I get a bugger. No! I Have you got one? bugger I've got . You bastard . Oh my god . Would you bloody well believe it. They'll have to let us down in a minute. It's a seven Con . Six seven eight I've gotta do it that, like that. Cos I've got that king in case John'll pick it up. He won't. Oh my god. Three aces. All that time. Yeah. No wonder I couldn't get a bleeding ace. Yeah. She'd got the buggers. Three on there. I expect it's a waste of time though. Oh look at that. Any bastard bar that ten. Would you credit it eh? Wonder why I bothered. Oh look at that bastard. Any nine bar that bugger. Do you want this one? No. Oh I'll sling in that one. No. I'm ch I'm splitting now. I've got seven. I thought you'd sat with that two Con? I know I chucked it away. Oh, well you s silly woman. Well I thought the three had gone. I've got them two buggers! Gaw, bloody hell. Split them up. Took the ace away. Bloody Christ almighty. Oh I don't believe this bugger. I don't honestly. What five's needed, the spade? Spade. Spade There's only one card will get me down. Yeah. Haven't I got it? No. No. No it's gotta be one of them. These cards are well mixed up this time aren't they? Yeah th but they're all and I've got nothing to help you John. Oh look at that bastard. Oh jack. That's what I've just had. I want a bloody jack but I can't pick the right bugger. Seven now. I had that eight last time. No. No. I wanna jack but it's still Seven on there. Ah! thank god for that. Just look at that bloody lot. You couldn't make forty. Two. Two for me . Would you believe that? Two? Hundred and seventeen. Mother? You're out. Eighteen, twenty one, thirty one, thirty nine. Frigging queen. Look at that was coming next time. Your deal Con. No, I dealt them. Bloody hell. It's Joy's deal. Sod it. I dealt them. No you never. I dealt them. I did cos I dealt fourteen and I had to No I d I dealt them. No you didn't . No, no I dealt them. No I dealt them. I know I did. Yeah you did. I think you did. Right, hundred and thirty nine John. Two hundred and seventeen. Hundred and twenty one. And I'm hundred and thirty nine. Who won? I did. Do you fancy that ? With all them bloody fitters. Thirty bloody nine. I couldn't get a pigging every ja No. What did you want? I wanted er the jack of spades the king of hearts or a ace of diamonds. And you kept picking the jacks, the red jacks? Yeah. I had a load of rubbish and all. I I I I finished up with four sixes and a three four five You you couldn't think six of clubs. you could possibly go all that way and not pick a hand up that would make you something. No. Thirty nine. Everything that she chucked away. I was splitting my hand up in the end cos they were gone. I wanted to but I couldn't pick them up cos I hadn't got enough. And I couldn't get out cos I hadn't got a hand. And all the other buggers went. The swinehund . Oh never mind boy. Worst things happen at sea. Ooh! Look at that. Would you believe it now? Look. Oh yeah. Is that the one you wanted? ace of diamonds yeah. Stupid Oh well I I think I'm gonna get a long way . Jesus . That's the first four. I don't think I dare look any further. Oh I've got another one now! Who dealt these? I. Oh aye. Aye said the fly. Here's my little I said cos I shall phone the bank first thing Monday and I shall say right, he's took the car so you can run to him for the money cos you'll be getting none out of me. Then I had a letter from the social security. They've been paying me thirty nine pound sixty haven't they? And I've been, been to fifty five pound seventy five every week. Oh. So you'll get a bit back then? Yeah. So I think it's better Well they're on about backdating it to the third. But if I write back and say I haven't actually had any wages since the seventeenth of January I might get it backdated from then. What's that? Did do what he said he was gonna do then? Yeah. Oh. Have you had any repercussions? Yeah they went to work in it the next day. Did they? Yeah. What, with all the tyres done? Yeah. How'd they get there? Well I dunno. Michael said it were there at erm five to twelve, when he erm quarter past twelve when he come out of work they got in it. But he don't know what time they got there cos he don't work in that warehouse. So he was gonna ask if they got in late because they could have had time to get it repaired. Oh I see. Did mum tell you we went to see the Bachelors last night? Yeah. Had a good night didn't we? Yeah, lovely. Had a bottle of champers between us. Sherry and champers. Yeah. Wonder we weren't er legless. Did you erm could you have drove on that what you drunk alright? Yeah. I had some chips that's why I was Only see what's her name Barbara said oh I daren't drink any, I'm driving. I never thought, well you and John were drinking driving . Where do you get this from then? A lady come up yesterday to see if I would do it. It's for that. And that's How long you got it for? Seven days. Have you? So What are you fighting for now, mm? Stop it! Oh his face, look . Oh Benjy did you get he's still Benjy. Here. No I ain't. I daren't. It must be awful trying to scratch and not be able to reach it . Is that nice? Benjy. Benjy. What is she doing to you?. It's all day and all night though. Ridiculous. He's, he must be allergic to something though. Allergic? Yeah my hand! What shampoo did you wash him in? The normal. What I always wash him in. It ain't that is it? You don't reckon? Perhaps he's allergic to cat fleas you know? Mm. He, you wanna see Max's back today. He's chewed it, literally chewed all his back hasn't he? What are you doing? Spotty nose. What's this? Trace. What? Look. Mhm. What's he doing then? What are you looking for? Are you looking for more milk? He can't be hungry. He's looking for something. Tried him with anything the other day when he were like this. Gave him more Perhaps he wants a drink now. I gave Danny a bed bath yesterday. A bed bath? Why? Three mornings on the trot I've been up there and I've walked in the front door and I can hear him downstairs snoring, still in bed. I said to him the other morning I said do that again I said look, I'll get you out of bed. I said I'll give you a bed bath. And I went in his bedroom and there he was snoring away. So I run the cold tap, got a cupful of water in me hand and went ooosh! Oh he . He soon . He said I remembered last night he said if I was in bed I was gonna get wet. He said I thought someone was here he said cos I could smell fag smoke. He said I thought someone was here. Penny's finished work now hasn't she? Yeah. Yeah we're gonna try this erm I'm gonna try this thing. See if we can get in to some more adult edu education while we're off. It's ridiculous. What name did me and Danny come up with?mum and Pam for driving school? Oh, Hinge and Bracket Driving Academy was it? You cheeky devil! It was Danny that thought of it, Hinge and Bracket Driving Academy . be a good'un Yeah Hinge and Bracket. Hinge and Gasket. Yeah. Yeah it's erm it's just such a long drawn out palaver they're getting, you know? You don't even want that do you? No, don't want nothing. Just wanna be left alone. He has a few swigs and then . But he don't . Don't want it do you? Do you want it? Have a little bit. Have a little Bet old Kelly's in a mess now isn't she? Kelly's house. Why what's Oh yeah she's having her wall knocked down. Is Wall knocked out, yeah. is is Kev doing it? Yeah. I'm gonna So who's going who's going tonight? Erm David? And Lydia up are they? Yeah. Erm And Joe Joey and Michelle are Joey and erm what's her name are going to Germany ain't they for four years? Yeah. What's, what's Joe's last name? Yeah. I don't get a look in, I don't. Don't you? No. Where's them ? Where's them ? Have a look at the . Oh you're wide awake aren't you? Kimmy and Kimmy found a ferret down the field yesterday. His own ferret Oh did he? went missing for about four hours and when it eventually bolted out this hole it run straight up him and curled up to him. Did it? And he couldn't make out why cos he's quite vicious, his ferret. He's got some new ferreting land and erm and when he went to put him in his box there was a ferret already in it but it's absolutely infested with these sheep tics. Ugh. Oh dear. So they've had to sit and pull Has he peed on your leg? Your leg's a bit wet. pull them all off. Yeah. Who's that? Who's that? I'll go love cos you've got the babby. Oh good gawd. Oh it looks like your mother. It looks looks looks like my mother, yeah dunnit. ? Yeah. Yeah. Come on in. Come in Benj. Who is it? Dunno. Someone asking for you and Rudy. Hello! What are you doing here ? Hey look who's here. Hey. Hallo kid. How are you diddling? What's the matter? Alright love? Just having some breakfast. You don't know who this is do you? . How are you? Yeah. Hello Georgie. Hello What's the matter? Oh not too bad. me back's bad . Not too bad. Your back's bad? Yeah. Mind Benjy. Why didn't you ring me and let me know you were coming? We wasn't. Did you feel fed up? Well I wouldn't, I wouldn't have come like this would I if er You're alright. You're alright. You're better than me. I wouldn't have come out like this though would I? Do you know this is my daughter, you've never met Tracy before have you? Yeah. Oh have you? Did she have long Yeah. hair last time we came over? Probably. Do you remember George and Viv? Dunno, I can't remember . No. ? George is the drummer. No I don't. Oh. No. I don't remember you seeing them. I don't remember you meeting her meeting her. Come on then. I'm going horseracing. If you'd have let me know I could have Well we're not stopping. Ain't you? No. Well you're not going surely? Well we're not stopping but we're not going anywhere. Rudy ain't going nowhere and . are we going? I said yeah Love, can you just put them bottles out? What have we got? A little boy or a little girl? Boy. Little boy. Gonna have a cuddles? You look well anyway. Ooh aren't you beautiful? Aren't you beautiful? How old? Er three weeks. Four weeks. Four weeks Wednesday isn't it? Four weeks Wednesday. Oh there you are. Viv'll have him. Ooh I'll take him. I know she will. Yeah I'll take him. That's our new arrival. We had him, what is he, three weeks old? He's four weeks on Wednesday isn't he? Four weeks on Wednesday. Mm. That's her last caesarian. Look at him, his wi eyes are wide open. You're just nosy Tyler. Tyler . Mm . You know, you're No, he was he was only four, five fourteen How is it you, you've kept your weight down then Viv? he's seven eight now. I haven't, I've put it back on love. You haven't. I have. Not all of it. Well not all of it. But I've put it back quite I wondered where you'd got, we did ring one night couple of weeks ago but we didn't get an answer and I said well I didn't know whether you'd perhaps popped up the club. It were a Saturday night cos I was in. I probably be working . I've packed in work now you see. So how's the others? Oh not so bad. What, totally? Mm. Why? Taking too much out of me. Was it? Oh. You're beautiful. You going back to our mummy now? Going back to our mummy? You can tell So how's all your kids? Are they all alright? Oh they're all fine, aye. Sit down Can you manage on that settee? Oh yeah. Yeah. Have you seen my new arrival? He's gorgeous. This one. That's what we rang you to tell you, we've got a new dog. This is the one that I wanted. Yes, you want your tummy rubbing don't you? Yes. . Come on then. No, cos you're going in there now. You're going in the car. I've been out of work six months. Have you? Yeah. Now we're going out. Shopping. Ha! We're going shopping now. Now you look better I'll tell you that. Yeah I'm alright. I'm Alright love. Are you ready? Right mum. We're off. Alright love, yeah. Alright? I'll er see you when I see you. Take that hat with him. Oh and that's for the kids. Oh yeah. Pam's got another outfit for, for the other one. She picked the two up. I, she should have picked the one up and I but Yeah alright. Oh he's fine. Okay. Do you want this cottonwool look? No it's, no I'm not. You're not gonna use it? No I'm not gonna use it. I've promised. Nothing to say it is that. Probably, I dunno. I'll try this cream and see how he gets on. Right, ta ta then. See you later. Let me open the door for you. Oh I can do it. . Are you alright then? Got him? Yeah. See you later then. Yeah alright then. Ta ta. See you later. mum. See you. Yeah. Ta ta. Bye. Be good. Ooh dear. Ooh Benjy bubbles. Oh it's great to see you. I'm glad you've come. Might just have been the What? Just as I said they just phoned, Kenny just phoned and said are you coming horseracing? I said yeah, well there's nothing else to do. I get fed up with bloody cards, so erm I said we'll go. It's only up the road. It's only in the local flats, you know flat But they always come Eh? they always come just just as I'm getting on and getting well luckily enough I got me me lounge done first thing this morning. So what's been going on? Nothing? Everything? Nothing? No not with us. No? Nothing's changed? Been a bit busy I suppose. Have you? You're lucky Mm. I've been out of work six months. Well, it's been quiet like, you know? Just this last four weeks. . But I ain't I ain't been up your way for blooming ages. No in actual fact we were only saying the other day that, you know,sugar Viv? No thanks. George? Oh aye. Well got a big place in Nottingham you see. Yeah. Mm. So you can imagine that it wants something done. It fenced up security-wise and everything else so we've been on it overtime and and painting and decorating and getting the Do you want some Viv, before I go? Eh? everything. No Bit of toast or something? No you're alright love. Georgie? No you're alright. Shall I do you poached egg on toast or something? No you're alright love. Come on. No. Just before I go. No. No. You get yourself off. You get yourself off. I'm not going till oneish. Have you been nicking bloody recipes again? No these are what I promised er promised Joy. What are they? Weightwatcher's diets. Well have you decided you're not gonna do anything about it? I think it's just a matter of losing the Yeah. No I might er might decide to do something about it if I get the inspiration. I'm just getting now because erm erm I've been for an aud not an audition . Wrong word. I've been for an interview with Mencap. Oh aye? And erm I didn't get the actual job I went for but they put me on the, on the relief register so that I go round to different people's homes or different big hospitals and different Mencap homes relieving people when they're on holiday or if they're short of staff or something like that. So Yeah. erm so er I'm waiting to hear, so that I'm getting irritable at the minute cos A the money is going and B being out of work, being here all day. It's sending me crackers. I'm used to working day and night. I mean it's very hard to do neither. husband he wants some beans. Who does? Him. I'll beans him. Is he eating them beans? He's ever so, ever such a devil to please. Aren't you? So did it work, your Weightwatchers? I got down to ten stone. Did you? You've kept a lot of it off though. Well. What have you gone back up to now, eleven? Eleven. But I got down to ten stone. And but the reason that I got up to ten stone is because christmas . And any I stopped going to Weightwatchers. I'm eleven one now. But to go down to ten, that's good. It is keeping it off though, isn't it? Once you Yeah. once you've erm got it off you've gotta keep it off. That is the art in doing it. What are you doing in here? Giving him some beans. I don't think he'll eat them Rude. He said he, yes he will. Or else I'll kill him. Benjy bobs. There you are Joy. What's that? when I first went to Weightwatchers. Sit down mate. Ah. And I got to ten seven on that. and then I stopped going. And then I rejoined So you've got a tomorrow? . And I got I was Yeah. I got down to ten Nowadays wanting to work on Saturdays and I said right I've had enough Friday. Oh yeah. And so Were you disappointed when you put it back on? Yeah. But, having said all that Yeah when I finish on Friday George I've had enough Yeah. you know? Bloody messing about. It wouldn't be so bad if . I'm not eating meals, I'm eating Snacks. snacks. And I'm . And they're all starch, they're all potatoes and I'll have egg and chips and bread and more bread. I very rarely sit down and have a meal now. No. And that's erm but it is good. And I would er I would . Anyway, you can have them. And they're the daily diets are they? Yeah. Do you have to buy ? So how long, how did it take to get to town then George? No. Orange juice, eggs, bread. Couple of hours. Eh? Couple of hours. Yeah. Couple of hours. There was a lot of Low fat cheese. Hard cheese. Just near er M forty two there's a lot of er roadworks and there were a I've just had me friends down from er wide load. from Jersey. Have you? ? Yeah. We lost half an hour there. I'm still working, that's the main thing. That, that big job you were supposed to go on abroad never came off then with all this blooming No it never come off. No. aggravation they had over there? yeah. I've got Adrian I see they're still Saddam Hussein's still flipping messing about as well. What ? Yeah. Oh, good. And is he alright now? Is he still behaving? He's got to get rid of all that flipping That's er Adrian? Yeah Yeah. Factories for making weapons he's got to That's right. otherwise they're gonna flipping crucify him. How's erm it's Craig innit? Yeah. Is Craig still alright? No, we've had a lot of trouble with him. Oh have you? He got in with the wrong crowd up at . The man's a flipping maniac. He c , he c he couldn't, it don't matter what he does, he could never win a bloody war. He ain't got enough blooming but he's learnt. No. Never do it. Is he? He's learnt it the hard way now and he's . And er well See the old aircraft carriers and destroyers are standing by again. yeah. Oh, good. Yeah. any more? Oh we've had traumas of every descriptions. Mm. Since August. Me sister's husband's buggered off Oh. and er Which one? Wendy. The one we went to Spain with. You know we went to The one with the parrot? Yes. he's on drugs fourteen years of . So we've had hell and high water with Er Tracy? My mate Val in Jersey, she's been ever so ill. She's got Is Craig still DJ-ing then? Yeah, aha, yeah. So he's doing well is he? Well he is and he isn't. Oh gawd. It's like talking to a . Oh yeah. that cuts that he can see every side of your Body. of your body. Yeah. And then it cuts it every bit down into cent ce cent cent centimetres you know? And it erm he can see That's the trouble with the youngsters mate. They make the money now and it goes like flipping water. Yeah. exactly where the damage is laying. Oh. They don't realize sometimes there's hard times to come. You want something put aside mate. Oh aye, yeah. Quick and easy recipe book Keep telling him and that's it. It's a twelve week . Are you with me? Yeah. So ideally if you looked at that come to that. If you worked it out start in week twelve I've still got them two speakers here, he wanted them. Have you? He hasn't said any more about them. Yeah. Bet he's forgot all about it. Yeah. What does he want well he can afford . Eh? I don't know They cost me three hundred and fifty, they're brand new. And I said to him you can have it for two, two fifty. You've saved an hundred quid. I'll tell him speakers ? Yeah. I'll tell him when I get back. Yeah. gonna have to save like mad then to buy them. He will do if he gets it into his head but he got in trouble you see, got in with the wrong crowd and Mm. a lot of money off him and all this lot. He just learnt learning now. Yeah. Adrian and Andrea are alright are they? Oh aye. Just said we just bought in fran er franchise for a . Yeah. Yeah. Have you started or you started ? week we started. Been at it three week now, so Mm. Erm and then if you that's got to last you all day through Yeah. Say you didn't use your So your firm's busy,? No, not really. Not busy? No. we're very slack now. The same as us everything's slow now. I know. Just, just before christmas we had no job. And that were right till the end of January. We've had, we we had stock in our blooming warehouse since what November? Mm. People didn't want it. No. It's only now just started now. Mm. Yeah? Yeah. It's isn't it? . And that's how you know whether you're or not. But you've also got your option of calories. Right? Which you are allowed Yeah, we could have done without all this bloody hassle down there. Yeah. You know? Do the whole bloody place up. Mm. Mind you the firm that was in there Blue Bag I mean they abused the bloody place they did. Aye. They knocked it about something terrible. Yeah. So I mean sooner or later would have been had to to do, do up you know? Mm. And these people decide whether they want the place, and the ideal place for them. Whether they want so Er fourteen to twenty one. That's what it is. It's fourteen to twenty one. What's that. Mm. Eh? Opt er optional calories . Well there ain't much that'd be fourteen to twenty, twenty calories is there? No. You've got fourteen er fourteen options. You need to be a mathematician to sort this bugger out. You don't really Thing is to do . it's quite easy actually. This is a job if I don't lose it, feeding my dog beans one at a time. Won't it bubby? Yeah I ain't, I ain't done any work here rea really since, you know done up the place. Well you seen it last year when you came and saw the garden and Yeah. the back bit Yeah. I've only just tidied up the front again last weekend. Got it all sorted out. Course with the winter and everything you see you can't do much outside. No that's true. You've got to cut all your grass in the the back there but and with it being wet and And I've got to roll it again with the roller. done a patio . You've done the patio have you? Is your grass come up alright in the back now? Oh she's had that altered. She's got us pond in now. No got fish for it? She's done it no. Little pond she's having. Oh. Be for water flowers, you know? Yeah, water lilies and so on in it, yeah. So you'll not know it when you come cos it's all fenced off. Yeah. We're all pri we're all private It's all fenced off? now. Yeah. Oh aye. Yeah. Course in your area putting up the fences . Oh it's all done now. Aye. And you're . And your optional calories is nought to seven hundred I've put two trees in down the back. I've put an apple tree down one side and I've got a victoria plum on the other side. Oh mm. So I should be able to have some plums. I've still got a bit more to do, you know? Yeah. Can't do it all at once though can you? No. It takes time but Yeah. eventually you do it, you know? Sort itself out. That . That's just in case Where's that dog? He's here. Oh. Yeah that's the baby of the house. That's the book. We lost ours you know? Mm? We lost our Judy. Did you? Oh yeah we lost our Judy. It died? Before christmas. She died? Did you? No we had to have her put her down. Put her down. Too old? Yeah. They do. That is the only thing. Mm. So there's that one you can choose from. She was a lovely dog though. Oh aye she were beautiful. So, you know, so loving. Mm Yeah er this one's the same. Mm. He stays down here at night and he won't go if Joy went up to bed he won't go with her. Mm. And as soon as I get up I say you coming? And he's up there like a shot. You know? Mm. At night sometimes I'm sleeping and I put me hand like that and he comes up and lays right across the back of my pillow. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He's ever so clean though. Oh yeah . Benjy! Benjy! Come on. Come and see dad. Benjy, come and see dad. Come on. He skips over for the bloody Oh aye. There's one there, there's two over there. Sometimes he hides it down the back of his seat here. Chucks it down the back. Oh aye they . And he knows, he knows where they are as well. Oh aye yeah. Yeah. over there they're just doing microwave cooking you know . Don't like meat done in the microwave, do you? No, I don't. I don't mind chicken. I'll leave you them. and then I can put these together, but that one that one I suppose basically it's a matter of getting . Yeah I ain't been for blooming ages. No? That's right. What you can have in a week or a day. I find that is easier for me. Oh I used to do I used to do Bradford Wakefield you know? Mm. And they took another driver on and he does a lot of that, the runs there you see. I mainly do now like Nottingham and Mansfield and Leicester and Birmingham all round that way you know? Mm. I don't even do now. No? Mind you I could now. Mm. until you get to London Ah London is it mm? I mainly do round the midlands now. Mm. Which suits me fine. Mm. to run all over the bloody place and It's a shame. If I'd have known you were coming I wouldn't have booked going out. Oh get yourself off. If I don't do something with me life I spend my life sitting here all day Here you are stop this dog of mine scratching all the while. I shall brush it and you won't like it Ben. I've just give you one good brush haven't I? Come here. Come on Is that the only daughter you've got? Yes. Yes we had seen her. Aye I thought we had. Have you? Yeah because you fetched kiddies up, didn't she? Yeah. She's just up me photo of the kids look. That's them. Yeah. Don't you lean over, I'm not scratching your tummy. I think he's just probably losing his winter coat. Yeah. that lovely ni nice warm day we had. Ooh I spend a lifetime running around after my baby. He's really made my life different, this little dog. I love him. We love him. He's absolutely spoilt. Worse than any kid. Aren't you? Eh? Yes I think Adrian will be It's a pity you don't feel like standing up and racing cos it's lovely . Yeah. Yeah we're going down there now. It'd be a bit hectic for you though cos it'll be, yeah it's cold but it's uneven ground and that's Oh. Mm. You w you're not do you? . See the thing is he's gonna run us up. It's only just Newton Bromswell which is just up the road. But you see if you take a car it's eight pound to park a car. Ooh! But if you go in, if you walk in it's free but you, you can't walk there because it's well you're talking about five mile out into the country. Mm. And although we're not so far from here cos we're this is Newton Road and the next town on er village on is Newton Bromswell. Mm. But you see if you're coming from Hyam you've got to come all the way through Chilveston and that way Oh yeah, yeah. and erm cos then Pam ph Penny phoned and said shall, it's her who's the horsy fanatic but it's lovely. Yeah we just go and have a pound on the nose you know and er Well that's it. You've got to. there's about ten ten runners. They only do it once a year on the flat. er Thursday night erm we went to the gala at the new gala club. You know Connells' all been took over by Gala? Yeah. Yeah. And erm they had their opening, big opening night Thursday so he was, he was out, he was up at half past four that morning so I thought well we might as well go. So I rang mum at four o'clock. I said do you fancy going out tonight cos it's The Bachelors who opened it Ooh that's alright then isn't it? So erm so went about half past five. We got there for about ten to six. They had a band called Me and Him on. They done all Chas and Dave. Me and Him. Me and Him. Chas Chas and Dave stuff and Roll Out the Barrel and all the rubbish you know? Oh I bet that were great weren't it? Yeah. It were Yeah. Then we had the local girls that do all this erm balls and and twist er you know like the ra ra girls. Yeah. And then er as I say The Bachelors come on at seven until eight. They were rea they were they were good. I mean Yeah. Yeah. not particularly my cup of tea but mum enjoyed them and they got everybody going and and then we had a good game of bingo. We had a sherry when we went in and erm bottle of champers on the table and balloons and Ooh. Tell you what she's living it up more now than she did before! Well, you have to make something. But they've got, we've got a new club here called The Beacon. It's at Northampton. And it's massive. It's an ex-Tesco's warehouse. Mm. It's absolutely massive. But every night they have every Saturday night they have a cabaret on and tonight it's Renee and Renata. Ooh! Oh my god. Yeah . Last week it were the Barron Knights Oh I wouldn't have Yeah. minded seeing Barron Knights. It's, I mean it's all free. It's for the end of your night, your cabaret. And the houses are a thousand pounds each. so I mean Ooh! Yeah. Yeah, so I mean if you have a win yeah, and a woman that sat on the next table to me. Touching my shoulder she said to me I want all the ones, all the ones. I said go on, you'll get it you'll get it . And I looked up and said it's here! And she laughed and she said here here here she went like this and I shou shouted as well. Mum said good job you shouted, they wouldn't have heard her. I mean she must have been in her seventies. But we, we got it and she Oh good. she had a thousand pound. It were nice. Oh it is, it is nice isn't it? I mean it's just a matter of you know, being able to afford to go and Yeah. And keep it going. I mean I used to love me bingo. I mean once upon a time nothing was , but I've spent two and a half thousand pound if not more since I've been off work. Yeah. You know, the dole don't keep us. Well no. I mean it's There's no way I mean No. you can't live on the dole. Not when you buy like I buy. No. No. I mean your joint of meat costs you a fiver don't it? Course it does. Oh aye course it does yeah. So I mean we're And the rest sometimes. I went Well I went down town yesterday and got some braising steak and it cost me five pounds sixty. I know. It's crazy. And that's just for three of them. I mean I, four of them. I don't eat it you see. That's without your and that's without your bits to go with it, your veg. That's right yeah. And then cooking it. I mean I know. gas and electric's expensive now isn't it? I know. And I keep thinking to myself well something will come along, something'll happen, but I I think what it is there is no jobs round here at the moment. I think what it is is that I feel if I go into something for the sake of going into it to earn money I shall be absolutely bored with me life. I f I shall feel as if we've been from here cos when I was first married we lived up round the next road. And I shall feel as if I've got up, been round the world Yeah. and come back to, to where I were twenty six year ago and Mm. Yeah. I don't want that. I've got to No. have a purpose to go out to work. Mm. I mean most people go out to work to earn money. Mm. Yeah. I mean I went out because I mean The house does get boring. I I got really really fed up. Erm I mean I were working at library. I mean that were no problem. But then when I left library I just got fed up and I went and went down to help Sue didn't I? And I thoroughly enjoyed it. Yeah. Mm. It's meeting the people. But now she's left and she's had a baby and I carried on because he wanted it, the the new landlord wanted me to to stop on and help out. Oh my giddy aunt. And I would go in and I I never said nothing to him at first did I?but I just couldn't take it any more. Mm. And it was either thinking about the wage packet at end of week which I was at first. Mm. And then I were coming home and I were, I were really awful. And I thought why should I? And then on Thursday I went in to work and I had had enough. And I come home and I says to him, I'm not having this no more. I said no,. Mm. He says well if you want to pack it in love Bless you. pack in. And I did and to be quite honest, I mean it wasn't the money really when you think about it because at end of day, forty six pound he were spending in pub anyway. So I were working for nothing really. Yeah. but he he were getting cos you were going out and having a drink er on er Tuesdays Thursdays Saturdays and Sundays. Whereas now, I mean we don't go. You don't go. No. And well I, we even considered me and my sister even considered going back into driving instruction. We went to a seminar Mm. a fortnight ago. It's stupid, I mean I've been a driving instructor seventeen year, and I'm not allowed to teach over here. No? No, I've got to take it all again. You're talking about sixteen, seventeen hundred pound to get you through. Yeah. But you see with this bank thing with the government, you can have a loan I think it's up to about four thousand pound like a restart. And it's a free loan for fifteen months. Mm. And then on the sixteenth month you've gotta pay it back. However you decide to, by instalments or by Mm, mm. one, one big lump. Mm. But at the end of the day, it ain't really what I want to do. No. I mean I, I want to get into mental health care. Mm. And and erm if I I'm hoping I'll like it when I get in there, but something tells me I would. Well as I say I went for this interview and she phoned me last Sunday didn't she? I went on the Monday for the, to the house. Then on the Tuesday I went to the hospital. And erm she phoned me up on the Sunday. She said I'm I'm just ringing to tell you Joy that you didn't get you you haven't been successful with your application this time. But she said erm I wanna just tell you all the others that haven't made it, we've just said well I'm sorry. That's it. But, with you, we feel you've got so much to offer and we don't really wanna just say no and and and it would make you feel oh blow it I'm not gonna do it. Mm. She said I feel that there is a place for you in the health, in this mental health service. But she said what it is is basically we're all just starting from the bottom because this new idea of where they're buying small homes and making them small communities Yeah. erm they're all starting from new. They're all been institutionalized up till recently. That's right yeah. So they're gradually buying houses in certain areas. And she said I'm sure you'll get in. But you see it's like everything else, we're in a recession. You, you go for a job and there's two hundred people going for that one job. Mm. Mm. That's right, yeah. There's three hundred and eighty went for a job up the Hilly Home Where they have the spastic kids. Yeah. Imagine, for one post! Yeah. I mean Kerry's doing caring you know? And she Is she? Yeah she's a carer. What the old people? Old people and er and handicapped kids. Erm she's teaching erm she's teaching handicapped now at er Hilltop School. Er seven to eleven I think it is. Erm but they are not the really really disabled kids. No. They're, they are the the mental ones. Yeah. Erm Cos they're mentally sick or mentally handicapped? Mentally retarded. Er me men yeah mentally retarded. They just need a little help like with feeding or or if they throw a tantrum Yeah mentally handicapped more than mentally sick. You see the ones I wanted Yeah. to do. I wanted to work with people that had had er severe depression. Ex alcoholics, schizophrenics. Aye. Where you don't do anything like that. You just work on a plan where that i at the er at the beginning of the day you're, you're given your people to watch. So every mortal thing that person does you note. Like if he doesn't wash, you don't wash them. You note that they haven't done it. Mm. Yeah. Yeah. And then you see you come along where you're pushing them to live on their own and you make suggestions. That's right yeah. And erm I went to a place in and that's what I wanted to do. But you see they ain't got no places here. No. Erm and it's a shame. I mean Mencap are all men It is really isn't it? I mean there's there's more people now When you've got so much to offer. Yeah. There's more people like that nowadays isn't there, than? Mm. I think there's gonna be more and more. Because at one time th I mean you never saw them because they were pushed away in in these That's right. great big hospitals and forgotten about. Whereas now That's right. th they're coming out into community so you're seeing more of them. Oh yeah. And th th there's more but I mean the facilities for them is there? Well you see and I've also put in for a job for the the marina at Northampton which is another mental home. But that's for a mobility assistant where I go in and befriend somebody and they employ me to take them somewhere for two hours. Whether it be Yeah. pictures or shopping or round the market or just for a walk or for a meal. Whatever you they employ Yeah. me, but it's five pound eighty for a two hour session. Well you've got to think about going to Northampton. Yeah. You're talking about half hour there and back drive. So that Yeah. two hours is now three. Yeah. Plus your petrol money to get there. Yeah, yeah. That's right. Do you want me to fetch a pillow? No, you're alright love. There's plenty of cushions No, you're alright. And erm so you see you're, you're throwing money to get money which is, which is a bit stupid. That's right. pointless . But then I erm she phoned me yesterday and she said to me have you had any professional lifting erm lessons at all. I said no. None whatsoever. So she said oh, that's alright, I've got it all in me head what, what I've got with you. So I do believe in me soul that she's working for me. Mm. Mm. But she's offered me a relief post as I say, where I go round and help but she don't know how many hours it will be. Mm. But I think I've got to get in and I've got to think well this next six months erm I've gotta work hard to get in regardless of whether I go voluntary or whether I go to a hospital and learn it at me own you know, expense. Yeah. I think I've got to put something in to get something out. I've never been a person that gets something for nothing. For nothing. No. I've always had to work very hard but at the end of the day I'm, I'm self-satisfied because I'm I'm doing what I want to do. And I Do, yeah. think to myself well it's six months I wish I'd have done it in August, now. Mm. Mm. Wish I'd have took it up in August. Took the bull by the horns. See six months down the road I could have been there. Yeah. That's right, yeah. You see and Yeah. It's like everything e but th s saying that we had him. We had him in September didn't we? And I mean he took a lot of rehousing cos he come from a a a family that hadn't really cared for him. I mean he's a happy little soul, isn't he, in in certain respects? I don't think he'd been ill-treated, but he's took a lot of love and a lot of attention Mm. to to to get him into a home. And she said he'll probably take four or five months to settle in Yeah. and feel comfortable. But I never leave him. He's never left is he, at all? If I go out I take him to mum's. Or if, if I go out Rudy'll stop in. Or if he goes out I stop in. It's he's took our life over in a certain respect Mm. Mm. but he's, he's brought us a lot of pleasure hasn't he? He is, he's a lovely little character. Benjy! Come here. But er he's hard work. You can see he is cos his fur's Oh aye. Oh yes. his fur here eventually'll come right down to the floor, I mean when he goes out he's Oh yeah. absolutely Yes. filthy. I have to sit him in the bath and I think June had one didn't she? She had er hers was er more, whereas yours is nice and white, here were all grey and black. Yeah. Yeah. It were beautiful. They're lovely natured. Mm. He's a babe. His dad's baby. He's just a He's dad's baby. You've gotta pick him up like a baby. Mm. You coming with dad? Are you coming to your dad ? Well my brother the only person he does it to is him. He growls like mad at Gary. Doesn't he? I've never heard a dog he don't do it to anybody else. Sometimes he'll growl at Rudy when he comes up to say ta ta in the morning. That's because he don't want me to go to work. I have to bath him two or three times a week. Yeah. And it takes me over an hour to dry him. So he's he's It's not, no it's hair you know It's hair. Yes that's right. Yeah. normally a dog can well it's bristly isn't it? But this is all hair this is. And he's like a teddy bear. He's mummy's teddy boy. He's a teddy bear. You'll have to remember Rudy he's had nothing to eat He's a teddy bear. for a day. He's ever so finicky. Oh he'll have to eat when he wants to eat. So he so he's videoing it then is he? Yeah. Oh my giddy aunt. Listen, I'm gonna have to go and get You go and get ready. myself sorted out. Erm But you're not going you're not rushing off are you? What? Well I should be back at five. About f yeah, cos you've got to pick us up. Cos Pam's son's going to Germany for four years tomorrow. He's just come back from Belize erm, and he's they're, they're posted to Germany and they leave tomorrow. Who's that, Joe? Joe. No I j I don't think Joe , I saw what's her name? Erm Mi Michelle when I was going to the bank. Debbie. Debbie. And erm she said she'll tell Joe and they'll probably pop up. They may come up tomorrow, I don't know. I don't think it's, they're going before don't think he's going before Tuesday. Oh well they're posted abroad anyway. And they're all going out for dinner tonight. Mm. But Pam's coming to the racing with us this afternoon. Baby stop scratching. Stop it. Erm and er so, I said to him if he runs us up with the car and then he can bring it back. And if he slips back and pick, picks us up about I don't know, Pam'll tell you when she comes. I should think about quarter to five. Mm. Cos the last race is at five o'clock I think, but I mean it's only if we go couple of hours. And erm I mean we've got nothing on then. Well George is working in morning so we shan't be stopping late. Cos he's got to be at work for what? six o'clock. Are you? So mm it were just a case of a flying visit cos we've not seen you for nearly twelve months. Is it as long as that? Mm. Mm. It's over. It's over. Mm I know. I know the time's flying. Well in actual fact to te to tell you the honest truth we've been so busy one way and another over the weekends haven't we? Yeah. And then erm we ain't even been to see Barbara and her and her new house and they only live fourteen mile away. Yeah. She keeps ringing us up and saying are you are you are you coming? Are you coming up to see us? But I don't get time, you know? By the time we get home and and finished. This little dog, he's got something . What are you itching for? Now let your mummy have a look. Oh look Rude. What? Look! That's where he keeps biting it and scratching it. That's what it is, it's scratching and biting. Look. He might have got a flea. He might have got a flea Rudy. I doubt it . I dunno. You see, see they do most dogs go down the fields. Quite possibly he has got a flea duck. I sprayed him with that stuff. Ah well if he's er I ain't got nothing to put on him. The only thing I can put on him is some talcum powder. Will you come up the bedroom? What was that D D D? What's that, D D D? That stuff wasn't it? I mean that stuff spots. Thing is he might lick it mightn't he? Mm. Yeah. He's alright. I'll give you we erm we I've got s it's green and it's awful. But it it's fantastic stuff. What is it, spray? No it's cream. He's done nothing but scratch this morning though. Yeah well it, it's probably that he's just got one. And on other hand it's probably been there, you've bathed him and it's just left it sore. See he's got another one there look. No. Yeah. Yeah it has. That's a sore. That's a sore. something to put on it. Did your uncle George sneeze? He went atchoo. He went atchoo. Right well I'll go and get me warm clothes on. Yeah as I was saying, George is gonna nip into town. Down here. Yeah. Cos he wants a pair of shoes. Oh alright. Well Rudy can take you down to you know where to go Tarrers But if you don't wanna go you're, you've got the telly. You can stay and wh tell me what time you're think about going. Will you, shall you stop for an e stop for the evening? Alright, or shall you It ain't up to me it's up to you. You're the, you're the driver and you've got to get up for work in the morning and everything else. No it isn't, it's up to you duck. It's up to you duck. No, it's up to you duck. Yeah it is up to you George, really. You're going to do the driving. You're going to work. Oh dear. Pack it in. Let mummy give you a drop more spray. Rudy you Is your white boots alright here George? Eh? Your white boots. Oh aye, yeah. Use them at all? Aye I've once or twice. Are you doing any drumming at all George? No. No he's packed up. He's like me. I ain't touched my bloody saxophone since we packed up. No. Aah. Talent going down drain. Yeah, talent going down the drain. He says don't you dare come near me with that silly spray. Come here. Here here here here here here here here here here Oh dear. Here. There's hardly anything in it. But if he is You see it it comes off it comes off the grass you see Come on Come on then, in the garden. Oh. Oh dear. I'm still no nearer Georgie. Eh? I'm still no nearer. Still you can decide what you're gonna do. You know him. Well as I say you've no need to stay late late. I mean We'll be here when you come back. You will? Well that's We'll be here when you come back. that's alright then. And then er I don't know . I'll put the heating on Rudy. Yeah. Well Viv is stopping in, you're going to town . Viv's going up town with you. Viv's got the money. Who's got money? We've got to leave him then Joy. Eh? Oh. We've got to leave Ben here. He's alright. He won't hurt. We shan't be long anyway. No, he'll be alright. He's got to learn to stop sometimes. leave the doors open Oh we shan't be long. Yes you wouldn't know our little garden now Rudy. Just telling him. No. Now you're putting in bloody flower ponds and all that sort of thing. Water lilies and When it gets established. I mean it looks noth it looks nothing now. But, you can't rush nature can you? So I mean it's like my garden out the back there. I mean he runs up and down, he it used to be lovely, all the grass. Well it's gotta be done again, you know? Cut and Yeah. and rolled again you know and so on. You can't do much in the winter, I was saying to George. No. It's pointless anyway isn't it, really? Yeah. Yeah. I mean I done all the front here last weekend Oh yes work's never finished. You'll always find something to do. Like I say I'm getting some erm Oh I just some corrugated mesh from work when they've finished building and I'm going to do around there as well to stop stop him because you know they've got holes in the fence and he jump Aye when you put him outside he goes through, you know? So I'll put some corrugated, you know, about that height. That'll stop him then . Yeah. So, yeah. Well he's a blooming nuisance he is, at times. Oh aye they are. He digs up the bloody garden round the Yeah. back and you ! You ! Where's Viv, upstairs? No she's gone to the loo. What, in there? Yeah. Should have gone upstairs. Got a nice little keyboard upstairs as well for Joy. Have you? Yeah, a Yamaha. Oh, good. E S R forty eight. Oh? Yeah. Hello! Hello! Where've you been? . Come up and see it George. Oh. Joy you decent? Or indecent? And if you're indecent I'm alright. What's this jumper on the floor? Come on George. So yeah, I dunno, things keep going on don't they? Oh the last time you were here I didn't do the bathroom either. No. No you haven't. done all the bathroom . I know I've just noticed. It's lovely. Yeah. You know when you've done here, will you come and ? Do yours. This wants doing, this room now. Yeah. Wants doing again. I try and do a little bit of everything you know I want me I ain't a bl builder or a carpenter or a chippy or a tiler but as I say I I I plan it out, always plan it out how I'm going to do it. And I take me time. me two weeks to do it I'm gonna do it and then when it's finished it's done right. Yeah. That's it, yeah. You know? Well that's it isn't it? Don't keep scratching. You'd better take that brolly with you. My big golf brolly. Oh I can't. No, I'm not carrying a brolly round. If we get wet we get wet, simple as that. Fair enough. I'm not carrying a brolly round all afternoon. Or take that smaller one. No. I hate things in me hand. I'm only gonna take some money in me pocket. There you are. Poor old Rudy, skint again. There's something to be said about that. You mean poor old Joy. Well I had to come down on his side. I've got to spend afternoon with him haven't I? Don't come down on his side. Well as I say I hadn't, I hadn't planned on going anywhere. I erm I just said to him You get off Joy. Enjoy yourself. I said to him you'll have to go and get me some money cos I I ain't got hardly any. And erm so he reluctantly went down the bank and got me a tenner. And there's tear stains on it but I'll put up with that. Ah of course you can. Tenner'll do. Look. I mean he's even marked it look. Yeah. Where he kissed it goodbye. Have you noticed George has stopped smoking? Have you noticed I have? Oh yeah. Good luck Yes. Have you noticed Rudy hasn't? And he said he was gonna do. Oh I have a, have a cigar when I when I have a pint. W how long you been packed up? Two years. Two year. Yeah I were gonna say No you two year in June. Cigarettes. since we saw them, that's right. Yeah. Yeah I'm sure you'd packed up last time I saw you. That's why I didn't erm notice. I packed up I packed up for two and a half years and then erm when we went to Spain in August, no in October, the four girls went me and me two sisters and a friend from work, Barbara. We went to Spain and erm the smell of the fags, it absolutely poured with rain for four days and nights. And I mean in Spain it rains. Mm. And erm we were l we were stuck in the villa, right up in the mountains er, could do nothing but play cards all day and scrabble and erm all these stupid board games. But erm and I just felt oh fancy all this way just to come and sit and play cards. But we had a good time. It were nice just to relax and I started smoking again and I packed up last Sunday. I thought that's it. I can't afford to keep chucking two quid down the drain. And I knew they'd go up again on on Wednesday. The budget mm. So I thought that's it, I'm gonna pack up. So we're watching that programme, Is this Your Last Cigarette? or whatever it were called last Sunday on the telly and I thought I'm stupid cos in six month's time I shall say I could have packed up six months ago. So I thought well if you're gonna do it in six months Mm. do it now. So I I just packed up and never thought any more about it. Couple of occasions I've felt haven't I? I've said I could do with a fag Yeah. but I won't, I won't relent. I'm I'm too, I'm quite stern that way. I was just stupid but I was as I say, since Oct erm when was it? Since September I've had hell and high water with my sister. It's been dreadful to say the least. Mm. And erm well she's gone down from what? Twelve and a half stone? She must be eight and a half. Ah! Christmas no new year's eve we went to a party. It were my other sister's daughter's eighteenth and she'd booked up a party at the club. So erm we went over. Ten to twelve my sister said I'm going home. She said I couldn't see the new year in. She said it's too painful. So I said alright then Is that still switched on? Yeah. Switch it off. Yeah . And then erm and then er when we went out, mum was in bed with fl pneumonia, well near pneumonia. Wen er Wendy had gone. Mum had got Benjy so I thought we'll pop up, see mum, get the dog. And as we come out I said to Rudy I feel we ought to go up and see if Wendy's alright, cos she was a bit upset at quarter to twelve. So he said alright then. And we drove round and she's got a bungalow and all she's got these curtains that all cross over and when you sit outside it don't look as if there's any lights on. But luckily enough I got up and walked round the back and I could just see the lights on in the living room downstairs. And erm I called out to her through the letter box and she come. And she said I'm on the phone, will you talk to that person on the phone. I said who are you on the phone to? She said the Samaritans. She said I just wanted to commit suicide. She said I don't want to live any more Joy. So of course that was it. I said right come on, you're coming home with me. That's end of subject. She said I can't I've just had a sleeping tablet. And she said erm I don't, I don't I don't want to she said. And we sat about an hour didn't we? It must have been nearly an hour. And I says come on, let's go up my house. I said I, I'll make the bed up when we get home. Anyway in the end I just said that's it. I've had enough. Switched the fire off. Grabbed hold of her. Grabbed her handbag. Marched her out of the house in her dressing gown and these great big slippers, you know, these with a funny face on. Then we sat here till what, gone four? Didn't we? Talking. Mm. Then she got strong again. She gets these pangs where she can't cope when she's on her own. But then when I'd strengthened her up I said she'd be alright for a few days. And then she phoned me up. Said I can't cope again. I'm down, down the pan. And that's how it's swung. Roundabouts and swings all the while. You wouldn't have thought he'd have walked out would you? No. Cos they seemed, seemed so happy. Well . So erm as I say she's er and take you all up there? Yes if you'd just slip us up, will you? I must go and get a tissue. handkerchief round here. I don't iron but at least it's done. Enjoy yourself. Yeah. So erm And win something. Yeah. We only put fifty P on. End of the big spenders. It's only fif the maximum bet's about two quid I think, something like that. Come in . Ooh ooh come in. Oh yeah, lovely. Erm Do you know these lot? No. This is George and Viv from Rotherham. This is the r George the drummer that we used to in nineteen sixty We know of you. How do? And this is Penny and this is Pam. Hello darling. Are you not coming horseracing? No. We're going into town. Oh you're not? was it a flying visit like? Yeah. Didn't know they were coming. Oh what a shame. It is isn't it? She said is this a flying visit? I said yeah we didn't know they were coming they just appeared. Oh. Turned up. Yeah. Oh what a shame. It doesn't matter. I mean they're not flying off. They're gonna be here when we come back. come back. Stop while we come back. Oh. And erm but George has gotta get up and go work in the morning. What time are you going out tonight? What time are you picking us up? Who? What time's he picking us up tonight? Who? Rudy. Half fourish. Half past fourish. Well Well Right, if you can are you ready then? Yeah. Come on then. You've gotta pick us up about half past fourish. Half past fourish. Yeah? Yeah what whatever. Alright then? We're going in Pam's, are we? Go in mine? Yeah, go in a mini. It'll be easier to park it up then. Alright then. Alright then. You park your car somewhere. mine's over the road anyway. Eh? Park mine up over the road. Over the road where? In front of make some tea. Are you ? Well if they do they'll have to open the bloody gate. lift the car. Come on then. See you. Nice to meet you. See you a bit later. See you later. Bubye. See you. Shan't be long. Make some tea. Make some toast if you want some toast. There's plenty of eggs. Right. Just get through the cupboards. Just go and enjoy yourself. See you later. See you. Yeah. I'll shut him in. He's alright. Put the telly on George. Bye. And then do away with chimney breast altogether. You're gonna have what out? You know cupboard in me room? You know that underneath the stairs? Oh yeah. That leads into me room. Well if I had that out the chimney breast out, my room'd be ten times bigger. Mm. So we decided that George is off again. we're gonna do that up. But I've got to have a maxi boiler first. A maxi boiler? Mm. What's that for? Combination . Oh a combination but well I don't know do I? Come on? A combination boiler. What for your water and hot Yeah. Have you got radiators then? Yeah. Oh we've got radiators. Central heating but it's a back boiler. Gas fired isn't it? Back boiler . Oh I see. So you want a balanced flue like this one of mine? Yeah. Cos our back boiler's about had it. Did you shut him out? Shut him in. I shut him in. Oh. Come on then darling. So erm you see that's, that's why when we had this we paid somebody to put this in cos the gas company wouldn't put my my boiler right out the back. He said oh no, you've got to have it here in your kitchen. I said I don't want it in me kitchen, bloody great horrible thing like that. No. So erm so we decided I wish we'd have had erm I wish sometimes we'd have had that radiator on that wall. Mm. Cos it don't half limit you to having a radiator that length. Mm. Yeah. That And there's nowhere else I can put me furniture. Cos if you put the suite, the settee over there it's gonna absorb all the heat into the settee. That's right. You're the same with, you're the same as us cos that's where my radiator is, underneath the window. And all it That's where they normally put them. That's where they normally are. That's right. But you see I, I'd have preferred it on back wall. Mm. But there again, having it on back wall where stairs is, it's still gonna make you're gonna still be putting things in front of it. In er in my room. So where else is there to put it? Really. I mean that's the only thing in here you can't put I mean I could do away with me birds and have another single chair standing there, but it shortens your room That's right. all the time. You see that's what's happened with mine. My suite's far too big for that room. Far too big. Well this one is a wee bit I think. So I wouldn't say so. I wouldn't say so. It's just that I sometimes think oh I'd love to have a change round but But y yeah you can't cos You're limited cos that wall is wasted really isn't it? Mm. And this wall's wasted cos of this. I mean you can't put that settee here because it it blocks that door. Mm. So that's the only place it can Yeah. really fit. Mm. Mm so I wanna try and get it decorated this, this year. Yeah. It's getting ever so yellow. Mind you, we all used to smoke. Mm. The girls come. Surprising how dirty things get when you smoke isn't it? Oh it is yeah. Oh aye. What are you going to do Joy. Are you taking wallpaper off? Mm. You're gonna take it off? Oh yeah. I'd like to halve it like, like erm erm I've done me bathroom. I'd like a nice plain one at the top and a patternedy one at the bottom with a nice thick border about as wide as that all the way like on the dado. Mm. So erm and then it really wants, it's it's up here where it's so Yeah. getting dark. But this takes quite a few rolls of paper. Yeah. What did we say, fourteen? I don't know. It's quite a few. You're talking about sixty, seventy pound. Mm. To do it at the cheapest. Oh yeah. Yeah. You used to buy Viv two rolls of wallpaper a week didn't you? Keep her quiet. Mm. Used to love it. Did you? Love paper, what you loved the art of wallpapering? Mm. Did you? I loved painting and papering and having something to achieve at end of it. Mm. I used to love to sit back and see it done. Whereas now I mean then I could afford to have done it. I mean in flat, you'd have loved my flat wouldn't she? You really would have loved it. I can't live in the muck of it all the while. I hate it. No. Yeah that's what's getting to me. You see now our Judy's gone, I mean she weeed everywhere and there were nobody had got the heart to to do anything about it. And now we've come to stage whereas I mean I were cleaning carpet every minute of day. Mm. Just mopping up after her. Well you've gotta be clean erm Stop scratching And er getting back to that and cleaning it with a real good clean every single week. And now, I mean I'm wanting to do, I I've got it to stage where it's comfortable. But I haven't got it to stage where I want want, I want it like now I want it like me flat. Mm. I really do want it like me flat and I can't get it like that. Sometimes you can't do it that way though can you? They don't they don't No. there's the sh I mean the shape that, that bed in my spare room, it's really filled the room right up. Whereas originally I didn't want a bed up there, I wanted a bed settee. Yeah. One so that I can go up there and sit and read and erm sit and knit and er learn to type Mm. and do me studying. But I mean for the price of that bed, I mean you couldn't go far wrong though. Oh no. It's a lovely high bed isn't it? Yes it's, it's got four drawers. Yeah underneath, yes. Yeah. It's a, it's a lovely my I give twenty five quid for that. Eh? Yeah. Well if you ever get another one, for twenty five quid as high as that get it me and we'll send you the money straight down w in fact we'd be down for it. Twenty five pound. That's with the headboard. Yeah. Oh my giddy aunt. I went to fetch it in the van. And the mattress is like new. In that little van. Mm. Good grief. It's just two pieces. Yeah. And the mattress. four drawers. You see it's it's high whereas I mean I bought a high bed, but even my bed's not as high as that. Have you seen that one up there? Mm. Why do you like a high bed? Just the getting on and off of it? Mm. Yeah it's easier for me to get in and out of bed of. Mm. Higher it i well the lower it is Well you can see how new it is cos the cupboards have never had nothing in them I don't think cos they're just, there's not a mark in them. The lower the bed is, the harder it is for me to get out. Yeah. He has to pull me out. Drag me out. Whereas if it's at high level I can get me legs out. Er yeah. Let them dangle on to floor. And then Let the circulation go. I'm I'm I'm like that you see, I'm straight on up. And only thing I do is get hold of windowsill to get out, and I'm alright. But if it's a low bed You've had it. there's just no way. He has to hoist me up. Mm. Well as I say I went out and erm I thought, well Jill phoned and she said at the time my mum had got a boy that was sleeping rough down the sandpits. Erm, with nothing. No no covering or nothing. He were only a young boy, seventeen year old. His mum and dad kicked him out, they didn't get on together. So erm mum went down one day and he was there and she said he were with my sister's boy, they were both sleeping rough. And my mum said to Adrian I don't like you sleeping down here. She said it's bad enough you know, being er sleeping rough without sleeping down here with nothing. So she, she phoned Wendy and said you know, this is ridiculous. So they got him a tent, and they put it at the top of my mum's garden. And then erm eventually Adrian got a job. He worked at the hotel didn't he? As a chef. Yeah. And the other one, seeing as it was like September October, getting cold, my mum said well the bed's empty, you might as well come in for the winter and stay here. But erm he sh he went about did he go just before christmas or just after? He left just before. Can't remember when he went but my my sister wanted to come down but course she couldn't come to mum's because he was there. And I said well if y why don't you come to us? We can always make a bed, you know, for a couple of days. And erm and say I went shopping and I I saw that and I liked it and I thought oh I'll go in and ask how much it is, he said give us twenty five quid for it, you can have the lot. So I said well that's fair enough. I come home and told him. Mm. He went and fetched it up for me. I phoned Jill, I said I've got a bed for you. I went down and bought a quilt and new pillows. Only cheapy ones but, you know, enough to cover. That's all you need isn't it? But when the heating's on you don't need much No. So erm I was thrilled to bits cos that long cupboard that's in that bedroom, that from the same person that we got the table from. Mm. So we're really pleased with that cos it's absolutely ideal. But it's too big for that small room really. Yeah. But I didn't want it down here. And it, that's the only place it could have stood, there. Mm. And again it would have been it's wrong for this room. You can see it's That's right. Yeah it is, yeah. But er so there's always things you can do. I mean I'd like to get I'd like to get some more pots and things for the patio and fill them up and I'd like to get a trellis on the side of the house with all flowers and that on there but It takes time doesn't it? You've gotta do it when you can afford it. Mm. We went over my sister-in-law's erm I you, you've never met Joe have you, my brother? No. They've got a, they've got a a house in erm Rotten Row in . And erm he's got a massive paddock at the back of his garden. Erm, oh you could get what? Six bungalows on it couldn't you? Easily. six. Eh? six . Yeah well you're talking about four and I'm talking about six bungalows. I'm trying to give you an idea of how big the field is. And erm they started to develop the land all round Joe's cos there was nothing behind him, only fields. They started to develop and they found saxon bones. So they've had five years this is not re , this is not just recently. As now, yeah. No this is going back about ooh ten years ago. Mm. So of course they couldn't do anything. And erm my brother said well you've gotta give me some they told Joe nobody had got to go on it from his property and nobody had got to step on it because . So Joe said well it's no good you doing that. My kids have got a paddock, where they play. They kick the ball, it goes over there. He said they're gonna fetch it so you tell me where I can go and then I'll make sure that the kids don't go. So it was a law. You know they, nobody ever went only Joe. They'd g got these white flags Well he's not had a holiday since our Craig was thirteen months old and we went to Ibiza Why? and we've never had an holiday since then. Why's that? I, it, I, twice two years on trot I've booked for him to go with me, and he won't go, he cancels it every time. So I said that if he, if he went with Rudy, I know he'd have off and he just grins don't you? Toe rag He's a little toe rag. I'll tell you what, I love my holiday when we went on our own and it's the best time we've ever had. I find I relax more when I ain't with Rudy because er Yeah he can be so stubborn sometimes and, and you know the other bores him, but he won't and then it pulls me, I want to do what the majority wants to do and then he don't and I feel guilty cos I think oh I should be with him, but Well as I told, told Rudy and apparently we both the same, I'm not a sand seeker, I I, I, the trouble is with me I liked to go on it I don't like to get stuck in the place on the same open road, and I like when I go on holidays right You see it I like to get out, you know mm do things out, you know, this is me, because this is what a holiday for me is, is all about get away off the regular routine of Yeah you know, thinking they will, oh christ you know what am I sitting down here for doing that anyhow, I could of been done that at home before I didn't have to Yeah, that's right I mean there's no point in going away and, and sitting on beach That's how I look at it and just Oh I go down beach for a few hours really that's right, two or three hours I mean which we did the last time we went we went down the, the beach and so on down the Oh I we had the old beach beds and we eat out over there Yeah and it's really nice. I mean that when we went to Italy, when me and our Terry went to Italy last year erm first thing in the morning we'd, we'd have our breakfast, then we had a wander round and then we went on beach, two or three hours in and out at the there and then we went back had a shower went and had something to eat cos it was only like bed, breakfast and evening meal, went and had something to eat and then sat around a little bit, got up and had a walk, find a where we were going, I mean it were, it were like concrete but it were so nice, er, there wasn't er, er there wasn't anywhere where you could go. But you see the difference being you don't drive do you? No, so we couldn't Well you see get out and about when you go into the villa, A you've, got to have a car because there's not a shop and B you're a long way from the airport and if you get taxis you're talking about fifty pound a touch from the airport, so that's twice, so there's a hundred pound gone already That's right, yep so that's all it'll cost you for a car Yeah so you might as well have a hundred pound for a car Got a car then you can go everywhere can go everywhere . That's right. Because if you go down to the shop it's a thir a ten, a ten, ten pesetas Yeah ten, ten quid which is a fiver a fiver That's right and then that's a fiver, and then you've got the worry of and you got you got to go shops because when it's so hot things go stale you've got to have That's right fresh bread every day in Spain yeah cos bread goes, although she's got a freezer and a washing machine and everything at the villa, so she's, she sold her house in Jersey and they're gonna do the villa up because they, they've sold it Christmas didn't they? They sold it Christmas Eve day it was gonna go through the twenty third, Christmas, the day before Christmas erm it was gone and they were supposed to fly over to Spain and they were gonna, gone, exchange a contract to sell it and then she phoned me back and she said I've got some good news for you, we've decided not to sell, it's so beautiful up there and it's called Los no, Los, mm Erm Los Aldos Los Aldos It means the height Yeah, but, when you're up there you're in the eagle valley, and you get all these beautiful eagles right above you just soaring all over you, they're beautiful aren't they? The birds and it's so peaceful, I mean you can go out the villa and walk and walk and walk and walk all the way up to the mountains, you could walk so far you could nearly cross over and go to another village right up the mountains, just keep walking and walking for ever, or you could go into the If you're enjoying yourself , enjoying myself I mean, we like to go you know, like place like museums see the history of the place you know Yeah, yeah things, I mean where we went to we wanted to go to the erm where they make the wine and so on We wanted to go to the Bri , Bristol Cream and Sherry Bristol Cream Sherry, factory It was right there and you know and We went to the see the erm Thing's like, I like that cos when we went to Italy we went to that Madam whatever, it's a big erm hyper, like a big hypermarket so it's called Yeah duty free yeah and they've got everything in it and er they do wine tasting and, and all this lot and you know their, their cheeses and that, they've got all that then. We went to, I think it cost us nine pounds from where we were stopping in Lido to er, to go to er where this Madam Yeah you can drive down, drive from Marbella to Gibraltar it's all along the coast beautiful seaside sceneries Yeah it's all these place are and, what is it, an hour and ten minutes? Comfortable easy drive . An hour and ten minutes to Gibraltar To, from Marbella to Gibraltar and it's places that you can stop all along the way Porta Bonosa s just er the other side of Marbella which is erm marina all these oil wells Yes and all the oil that millionaires came out though king this and king that and prince Oh yeah they come in with their big some of those, some of those yachts there make the Britannia look like they should Oh yeah There was one there Cle erm it was called There was one there called Joy and it were worth Oh Christ you're talking sixteen million yeah you've never seen nothing like it Is she worth sixteen million? I'll tell you what Viv if you went across there and you see them luxury boats there. It's no good sat there saying if I see it, we've got to get some We went, we went up the mountains er a fabulous hotel either this year or next year that, we went up there as in actual fact we were looking for certain place when er the postcard we had wasn't it, wasn't the cows given us trouble and we went Mm and then we started speaking to this chap and say we were looking for this place where the erm, they sell all this food and so on, what's the name of the place, he said oh he says it's finished, so he said you know where the er, we said er where's somewhere good you know to, to go and have a nice sleep, and he told us about that place up the mountain where we went, where we all went the last time Auckland Auck Auckland and we went there and we went into this restaurant well believe it or not, I've never seen food like that, I mean Joy asked for a leg of lamb, I didn't say leg of lamb, I had the cod pieces Oh no your talking about Venavae Oh Venavae that's right, yeah and the chap brought over a whole leg of lamb A whole leg of lamb, yeah A whole leg of lamb a whole leg of lamb yes it was all in rosemary garlic butter oh dear that was your dinner, a full leg of lamb Oh great Yeah and we had, we had, what for starters you know Oh we had prawn cocktail prawn cocktail whatever, apple pie and fruit liqueur and li liqueur after that and I things like and how did it cost us? It must of been about what? Well it weren't a tenner each It weren't a tenner each, must of been I would say about six quid each I think the leg of lamb was four hundred pesa erm eight hundred pesetas which is four quid Four quid and then your starter was about well your starters are dear because sea food is That's right, yeah but didn't thought of that you could eat at anywhere in Spain for less than a tenner any day Yeah then you go, er Val's got places of interest booked in her place where if she's gone somewhere like, if she comes home and gotta a little book in the cupboard she might then, then the place, follow the road to the so many kilometres, look to the right you'll see such and such follow the road round to the right and you'll find it, go to restaurant Alpalo or whatever and Yeah and eat in there, and erm oh she says, she marks, she writes down all the market days, when you just the market and you see the fruit Most days avocado's sort of eighty pence for a kilo I've never eaten one of them in fact I wouldn't know what to do with one because avocado Last time you had a you would in fact they were all share drop down the sale and now a little and when we went back again he'd even, I know They'd gone it's one night, it was like, but, even better than our and old you know It' twelve round the sides where they've got the drunks tucked up old steel rails all around mind you if , if, if, if, it'll take you, what is it that'll take us to go up there? Before maybe two hours mm, more than that and know you can do it in less than an hour, right to the bottom and then on a to the and then on a Thursday night you go up, we go up to a place called Pia Yes which is nice Oh which is one of the most oh it's amazing Yeah and they flamenco dancing and you can eat along the in a big open square pat patio on the, on the, erm Virgin Square or somebody or other and they have all flamenco dances ooh, ooh all different sorts all different groups You get the and it's, and then you can book up and go and eat on the verandah or you can eat in one of the restaurants and just walk round and sit on the, any of the seats. Oh You see Pam and them was going to a bull fight but I don't like I don't like bull fights, erm I don't think I, I could cope with one of them No I don't think anything else but that You see when you go down the bottom of the sea where the villa is you just go over the roundabout, and it, you just go straight over and that's all the What's the sea Pacific? Mediterranean Yeah Mediterranean Yeah all the way, you look one way as far as you can see and you, when you go to Gibraltar you're only a few miles from Africa Yeah Are you? of Africa on the Peonies on the Peonies you can go over to Africa on a day trips from down there, but you have to have a full passport you can't that's right go on a yearly passport Right oh so it's, you have to have a full passport, well we were gonna do it this year but Robert and Wendy only had a yearly passport Yeah didn't they? So we didn't get over, there's so much you can do, we went to the erm, er to see the dancing horses, you know the dancing horses Mm The stallions Penny that come today she's a horse fanatic, she's only just sold her own, her own horse, but oh they're out of this world, absolutely, weren't they, they were just stunning. Absolutely, the things they get those horses to do. You go up to which is a long ride it's nearly four hours away from the villa weren't it? Yeah We left there, we left about half five, six in the morning didn't we and we were getting lost in and we knew it was in the village in that town but we couldn't find it and we kept getting lost so we all pulled her up and he went back and he said to this man can you tell me where the Went in this yard this place had oh lovely gates and I walked through straight up to the house and ring the bell, and it's Because we asked, we come to see the horses and he said well if I tell you he, he, he was English weren't he? Yeah, yeah He said you go down here and down there and he said down down here and you've gotta turn right at the he said I'll tell you what, all this messing about get in your car and I'll come, so he got his car out the garage he got his car out , beautiful Mercedes What? Yeah and took us to the dancing horses and then took out and showed us how just dropped us and waved to us Have a nice day yeah ever so friendly, mind you you find people like that though, you know don't you? I mean you want to see his house I mean it was set back off the road and you see the people pull ploughing you know round the entrances Ah and then, they, how they've got their money from their own blood, not everything up there you know was he, he was coming over from er South Africa ain't he, on fourth of April, me mum's eighty on first of April and he's coming on fourth. I wanna see that then the bungalow's got four, five bedrooms? Four or five bedroom bungalow and all trees in garden Because I don't know, I don't know where, where South Africa is getting to, I hope they're going to something stronger It's not the sort of place I would like to live and have He loves it He loves it Is that his own house then? No it's er, no it's er What does he work out there? Yeah We've not seen ought He's my boss Is he? We've not seen yeah He hasn't been home for twelve months It just means, no once but he, he, I mean we've not seen him he's been away four years, I know he's been coming home first, for holidays, visit, but he's not been at home because, well we moved into that house, if you remember we moved that's right, but, when we moved into that house erm I conned him I says er are you gonna give us er ten quid for a new house? To buy some mud and he says considering he's gonna I says my god I says it'll never be known that my brother said that you can be anything and that was first thing he ever gave me. You see, what does he do again? He, does he own the company? Well he had shares in it, or something he said So how's that you're still with the same company you're all are you away from home as much as you use too be? Are you? Are you? I'll travel it tomorrow I Do you, and where are you this week? You, it all in different places? I get worried when he does things because when he's working like he's working and he's travelling like he's doing I'm, he goes Monday morning, he comes back Friday, by the time we've done our shopping Saturday, he's, he's, if we go out Saturday night it's what, eleven, twelve o'clock or more, it's gone twelve o'clock usually after he's gone and he's back up then. Do you work every night then George? And he travels with it and I'd rather him not. I do more this job, yeah Do you? I'd rather him not travel it, I'd rather him stop here on Sunday and not come home so that he's got ample rest, cos he's not getting it I, I, I dunno, I, I might be wrong, but he moans at me cos I knock me out, he says to me you'll kill yourself, you always want to do something, but to be honest it's worse for me to sit there and watch that, it's more tiring because by the end of the night I'm not tired or I've been asleep all evening I, I'm better to go out, I know it sounds awful but I don't like being trapped, I don't like being in because somebody seems to think I should be in Yeah that, and, and, I mean it's probably better for George to do what he wants to do, rather to do what he don't want to do because we used to be in the same predicament when we were doing cabaret, we'd go down to London on the Saturday, we'd leave here what about half three, four o'clock, so if we stayed in digs, we'd be finished work say midnight, we'd be back in digs for one, then he'll go up till seven the next night yeah, yeah I mean what do you do I mean, your ok you can go to bed, but there's only a certain amount of hours you can stay in bed cos then you're wondering and wondering and won so you're more tired trying to find something to do so we That's right we made it straight away, we were working Saturday and Sunday in London as soon as we were finished I always used to make us a pack of sandwiches about six or eight didn't I? A massive great big flask of coffee and when we got there we stopped and had a sandwich and a coffee, and we'd go in the club, set all up and we'd sit quiet and then we'd have a quiet drink wouldn't we? As soon as we'd packed all the stuff in the ba van we'd have the rest of the sandwiches the rest of the coffee or another cup of coffee and then we'd get on the road and even if we'd got back for four, by the time we'd got home and, and had something to eat or if we didn't want nothing to eat, watched the telly for half an hour and get to bed, you've got from eleven till sort of three or four the next day which is just nice because you're in your own home That's right. But you think it'll kill him from one o'clock in the night till seven o'clock the next morning, it's, it's ridiculous and financially were no different because you've got to pay for digs you've got to pay for the petrol That's what he says, that's what he says, but I I mean driving isn't, driving is not necessarily to the right sort of people, you enjoy driving it's a shame you don't drive because then that way you will have your Saturdays free because you could get your shopping done and, and be done. That's right, yeah. And then it'll give you the time just to relax together but I mean that, that's why I say, Rudy hasn't got a clue in this my mum's seventy five, how does she get back er ten pound of potatoes and all the week's shopping, I say well I'll go and then he moans at me cos I'm running around after everybody else but True Yeah, but, no, no, it's exactly the same as them he couldn't be bothered, I mean my mum's eighty and, and she can't get out now and he can't the same you know with me, but I mean end of day you've got it to do Of course you have. I mean I've got to look after her Mm I get worried sometimes for him. You see my brother Joe is wrong, he should have, he's a workaholic, and they're doing sixteen hours a day and they're working, can you imagine, and I mean my youngest brother Brad who's working with him said er Joe don't stop, a week, no a fortnight la , a fortnight last Sunday they had to put a not air conditioning yeah it is air conditioning unit in Smith's in Staines and they had to whatever happens they had to get it working for the next day, it's got to be in and working and they worked all day, my brother, my eldest brother Derek weld it for nine hours non stop, to the point where Brad our, my younger brother and Joe had just working in the same room as him welding all them hours You've lost your you've lost your The dog has got it I've lost me Like erm, like Maureen she's erm she's worried for Joe, she says he don't stop, he don't, but you see the difference being is it's Joe's business and it's as he said, some people don't pay you for twelve months, and a lot of your money has gone out before you can get a chance to get it back in Back in I mean they don't put, they don't, I understand in, in, when you've got your own business like Brad and them, well our Joe can't be hard up he does a job and it brings him thirty grand in Mm I said yeah, but that thirty grand he's got to he's gotta wait for he's got to wait for, plus the fact that he's probably spent twenty of it out getting equipment That's right That's right, yeah then you know, they don't believe that I don't know he said well you know my boss you see my boss isn't very workaholic at all Mm, his boss is the same he's in there every morning before eight o'clock and he don't leave there much before half past six, sometimes seven o'clock, and then the workers goes in on Saturdays and if he knows there's nothing to do just walk around a crowded place and but I mean he's a millionaire, and that's how, I mean this is the difference between probably between him and Joe, I mean he don't depend on money to come into this No cos there still an so great in running different and so on, every month their money is straight into the bank all their cheques come in straight into the bank so he'll, you know, and I mean our pla , and the whole of the site nearly is let out for different people, you know, which is money coming in all the time Yeah you see? Yeah But I mean you know he's a workaholic and he expects everybody to be the same and then he works in there by the time I get there in the morning he works, works solidly right through until I leave there at night, you know. Yeah, but you see then he's at fault I mean like yesterday he come in he said he's got to drop off at Milton Keynes and he said I, I, he weren't due to be dropped until what half past ten? Half past ten And when he got there the bloke said oh just pull up and go and get it done now, I said now any other man would of gone in the cafe and thought right, I would of been drop now till twelve That's true. and he being dropped at sort of nine o'clock Yeah. he went straight back to work Yeah but, yeah but you see you see he always makes an excuse but no it's a, it's, it's, it, it, it is not like that I'm making an excuse, I always think ahead and look ahead right, now I've got a phone in my cab, all the other lorries have, you know, a mobile phone, right, how he know I'm supposed to give the drop off at half past ten right, that's yeah if I finish on road in the right, they jump in my cab and I decide to drive away and he phones and then he can you get the so and so erm driver for me on the phone, so he calls me up, oh we've got load of them he said I get back to the phone many time later you know see, I can't be late, because then I would be lying cos I'm just home and I want to get pick up so and so, so and so, I know, you, I think drop myself in the you know That's right, yeah. Whereas if I had a, a, a phone in my cab, right and he, and he phone me etcetera etcetera at night, ok it will need for him to phone the firm then because he got me direct That's right yeah, yeah. But I tell you what you don't get any badges nowadays for being honest, I know that much . Well, no , I'm afraid not and it's, it's a sad state of affairs, I mean when you see Well I see of when you've got to be a rotter to get on but I'm afraid that's how it's gonna be Well that's all , that's all that it is, it's all the rotten people that are now getting on. But as I was saying to George the other day Or selfish and, and, and you know, he's that sort of bloke, he's a very nice bloke and he's got a heart of gold and he's saved us no end of the money ain't he, since I've been working for him? He's saved us a lot of money in one way, but he don't pay the wage This is what I said I mean so I suppose one counteracts the other Compensates yeah compensates for the other yeah, yeah , I mean I know which one I'd rather have yeah the that's right, yeah, that's right, yeah, I mean it's, it's, it's, disgusted when you know a bloke for this firm and all this money that he's got, can't pay a man a living wage, so but it's a decent as I say, he's lucky to be got a job these days. That's true, that's very true I mean I know that now because I never thought I'd be on the scrap heap, but sometimes I really do feel as if I am Yeah because er, when they say how old are you and you say forty nine, they say oh well we, we, we were really looking for somebody a bit younger Mm and you think to yourself how can you, you know, I'm prepared to work cos I'm I mean she said to me when I went for this Men Mencap job she said erm, have you got any trade behind you? I said well I can do everything in the hotel trade from housemaid to housekeeper to barmaid, the only thing I haven't done is managed one but I could do that if I had to and I done, done booking of the reception and I've done bar, I've done diner's room, I've done kitchen, I've done I've done chambermaiding, I've done housekeeping, there ain't many other things you can do and then she says and what about cooking? I said well I, I'm a confident cook, I've cooked from meals all round the world you know, and she s and erm, she said oh that's worth knowing, now the some, some of us can't even boil a bloody egg, I mean it's, it's ridiculous, you think to yourself what's, what's it all about at the end of your at the end of the day Yeah so, you've just got to have to, point is I'm not gonna try and get big going, but I'm, I'm just, I'm trying to think of how I'm gonna get myself motivated again to get back to work Yeah and that's what it is gonna be motivated, but at the end of the day there, the, the people that you work with they ain't worth a I know that's true I'm afraid you have to be like them cos, to survive yeah I mean I don't know about you, but if I, if somebody drops a spoon in the restaurant I can't help but Pick it up pick it up that's right, yeah Most blokes say they don't give a you know, so what do you do, do you follow your instincts or do you follow the law? Are we gonna push off? Yes, dear. Get me coat till about nine Oh well you've still got a chance to go and get her ready duck. Are they? You he weren't gonna miss going out tonight were he? I think you don't know going one He's staying in. Look, we'll come up one night, one Friday night done this job for a long time won't you? We'll stop Friday night, one Friday night when you're doing none. Oh, well anyway, well, we gonna Marbella again, how's about that . I finish , I finish at one o'clock on a Friday Do you? I'm back home for half past two Oh well We could be up here for er tea time Yeah, on Friday what? Give us a ring when you're not doing nowt I think we go up Well you give us a ring when you wanna come, I mean I mean Friday night we don't do much anyway you know, I mean it's like everything else if I don't, if I say to mum, mum we've got nothing to do, I mean it's like everything else you can't afford to go out and do what, things that you would like to do, but you know like bingo and things, so we al , we get a game of cards going just to stop the rot and the boredom Yeah We play dominoes more than cards at the minute though yeah I mean it's only just to, just to do something otherwise you just sit here and you think it's, you're stuck here from morning till night and all you can do is keep going round, I mean I can keep working here Oh I, you could always find a job to do can't you? Oh yeah, oh there's hundred's of jobs want doing round here again, but you do the same ones over and over again and I think to myself what a waste of a day. Mm Cos at the end of the day you've worked hard and you ain't earned nothing that day. Oh yeah, yeah. So that's what we'll do. Well you let us know when you want to come down Yeah. it's as simple as that well then we can go out and have a drink with you, weren't fair, we weren't gonna stop this long were we, we just popping in to see Happy New Year. It's a long way, it's a long way to come and pop in see without you knowing him as well as I do he, he, Rudy's so hard to move, I mean I'd love, I've said that Stick a bomb up his backside oh , I used to say when, if we were living in England now, we could go Scotland for the weekend, we could go to the Lake District, we could go to the Cheddar Gorges, we do nowt. We will have to go to the Lake District my darling. He's just such an old bore. Because, I only ever so it See people say to me you've got to do, well you've got to remember one thing Joy, Rudy's older than you and I think to myself well if he don't wanna do it you know that's, that's his problem, so, but Yeah I'm not very They don't find drivers I have to do blooming miles and miles, suffer all this sort of thing, you know. That ain't, that ain't basically it, you don't wanna do it, that is the main thing, I mean you never been one for wanting to go, I mean even when we lived in Jersey and you ain't got any idea how small Jersey is, Val and John used to come to us, but we never went to Val and John's, it's hell all mighty getting him out, if I don't go on me own, I don't go. Oh, you weren't like that years ago though were you, when he was stopping out at bloody four o'clock in the morning I come round Joy, I've come round I know he'd be here knocking on the door, arrive early I wouldn't of got to work. I would never of bloody did that time, every time she says anything is about the sleep night that we had. I blooming late night Mine was the noise I'd like a double of that. We used to, we used to, we used to have some lovely card nights, he never plays cards, we, we have a game of Trivial Pursuit when we go to Spain he'll join I've got a game he'll join in then but he wants to I bet you , I'll tell you what I've got a game and I will fetch it down the one that Sue bought kids for Christmas oh god you can't buy it, well you can but it's thirty pounds, thirty something pounds to buy. Dingbats? No Pictionary no no it weren't Pict ,Pict , erm no it's not that. Cluedo No it's not that How do you play it? Tell me and I'll tell you It's a board about as long as that, that's all you've got in it and then there's all these cards and questions and what have you And how do you get the questions done, do you write, draw pictures It's questions and answers, I don't know, I've forgotten, I, I, I only opened it up and had a look at it at Christmas and I thought thirty something pounds for that, a load of rubbish, I don't know what it is. Not Dingbats? No No Is it Dingbats, I think we've got Dingbats and Pictionary and we've got miniature Trivial Pursuit, you know, the travelling one, where you Oh I've got the big one of that Yes, but you, this one you've got some little bits that you spin it round and if it lands on a colour you, it tells you what you've got to, then you've got to put No, I got and er, Trivial Pursuit. But you see when we're in Spain we sit rou ,rou of the swimming pool and we play that and everybody, everybody will hear you know, who was the Prime Minister of India between the year such and such a, and were saying Mahat Ghandi, me hat and me coat Me hat and me coat me jacket and me hat and me, all sorts what with me hat and me coat and er where's me Ghandi and all this and then somebody from the other side of the pool was saying it so and so, so and so, then he said couple of old you know , spin it again and you I forgot, I'll fetch it you down anyway, next time We've had some real, we've had a real good So did we We use to dig er , we use to dig er, we use to dig er, dig the old ice box over with the drinks in it, ice with the orange juice, and gin and tonic and all bloody sorts Home made sangria, we'd leave it in the fridge you see Sangria and we'd have it, yeah then he comes home, that's what he likes to do potter around the house, well I don't want to potter around the house when I've been stuck in for twelve months. No oh we'll have to get motivating him then. You can't motivate him, I've tried, in the end I just Oh, he's got to get motivated cos if we're going away we got to save some pennies up and if we commit ourselves then we've got to save pennies up, it's no good coming and saying to me you're going away next week, I shall turn round and say sod you matey we're not cos we've got no bloody money. It'll be harder to get to the villa in some respects because Val and John, Val, Val's husband's retiring in July, he suffers with his dreadful headache, and they're going to spend ninety per cent of their time in Spain, but she did say whenever I want to go, as long as I let them know they'll come home cos they're gonna buy a house in Chesterfield and er she said whenever we wanna go, they'll come back over to their house in Chesterfield, so, we I mean you were, you were it's just a matter when I get a job, I mean well that's it. Alright they don't want to go to Chesterfield then we thought they could come here, look after the house, look after the house the same as we'd look after it, and Val said this Yeah as I say Pam and her husband are going back down to villa erm in June I mean Val wants me and Rudy to go down to the villa, they're going from July to the end of September this, this year, probably for longer, but erm I made up me mind holiday, cos I've got four weeks holiday to come now, this year and that's not, that's not I was gonna say, but you see counting the Saturdays and Sundays and so on its, it's, it's the same Saturdays and Sundays, I can't get him out of the house and yet soon as we get there we have friends and family and they say, keep saying come on, come up and see us, I went up in the mini on me own one day and spent a couple of days with her, but, it, it ain't the same when you go on your own, I daren't go too far in my mini because it's, it's erm, it's not a car that you can be hundred per cent sure of it, I mean as soon as it rains it stops anyway, we went out in it today and there's all water in the front of the, in the front, but That's your heater. And me heater's packed up that's the trouble with being out of work, when I'm getting behind with every, by the time I start work we'll probably be wanting new bedding, new towels, the house will want doing Mm take me twelve months to get back on me blooming feet. That's because I you have not tidy though. The old I mean you'll spend just what you wanna spend in Spain, I mean like we, the night, when we went the first time, we took an ice box, but oh, we take it back, you don't wanna lot of clothes cos you, you literally need shorts, swimmies, there's all towels and that there in the villa, there's nothing to take in that, in that line only, only I say you only have to take something, cardigan it get's, it get's cooler at certain time of day and it heats up again Only beach towels, you could, you could take everything in a, in a So what we done, we took a big bag full of food didn't we, like, every week somebody brings home another tin of ham, a tin of corned beef, tin of beans, or a packet of biscuits and then er, at bacon yeah we went and bought a three pound, no a five pound pack of bacon didn't we right, right don't need to buy eggs , eggs over there we took a dozen with us duck eggs so that we got, cos say you have a lot of holidays, so that when we get there as I say we ain't gotta go out and shop and get stuff, we've got bacon and egg Well you just have to we take some of them part bake breads and some cheese and biscuits and a great big packet of cheese and, and you just you know, you can either just sit there, but the food, once you get down the food is so cheap you don't want nothing else in the heat. Well that's right you don't, cos I mean you don't eat a lot do you? You can have a nice cheese in a salad Yes, that's right, bread and butter and eat at night Yeah without any cooking. I mean there's no point in going away to be stuck in else cooking blooming meals is there? Oh no I mean that's how I was, I mean and that's And this is what, this is what we like to do you see enjoy yourselves That's what we like to do but Pam and them don't like We like to go out food, they're, they're non food people, they don't wanna go, all they want to do is get something in their stomachs, we don't, when we go oh I like to eat the culture, I like the Yeah paella. We went to this restaurant one night up in the mountain, he was starting to tell you, we walked in and there was all these people about eighteen and twenty sitting in the middle of the room and we went in, and it was late, it must of been eleven and we said you know can we eat and he said yes, yes and after he said, he said fancy the paella he said no problem I make paella so, I mean all of half an hour went by, but we went in and we had paella and then all these people started dancing, they moved the chairs back and they started clapping and singing and dancing and I said is this a party and he said no, no, he said it's because it's so hot in the houses, they've come out to eat because it is so hot in their house, in their home and erm and yet in the end they were, they were coming round they were singing, dancing, clapping and they got all us going as well Yeah and that was the only one night we never took the video camera with us yeah we had a fabulous time, didn't we? yeah Just off the cuff like that. Yeah, well I mean it's always the unexpected Oh yeah that, that, gives you enjoyment, I mean other than that I mean if it's all pre-planned oh yeah you don't enjoy it half as much, I don't think. Well the thing is it was like Jersey, we lived there for twenty, twenty years didn't we? And, and you think to yourself oh we've seen everything, but I used to get pleasure in taking somebody to the potteries because I knew they hadn't seen it and it would be like ooh, when they got there, you could see the shock, the surprise in their eyes when they went in there When we went to er when we went to Austria, not Austria the year before we had a trip out to the that er big factory at that er crystal factory Oh yeah and that I've forgotten what you call it oh the stuff in there were oh, but you couldn't afford to buy it What No You know you can buy them in, in London, four pound they were Oh they were a lot more than that weren't it? We bought these, we bought , we bought these up the road er, they've got a big er ceramic place there, any imaginary thing at all you won't No No I think we bought these in the pottery half of it's erm, in er, oh not where the big pottery places that ain't the Rhonda, the Rhonda's where the, this Not, not the Rhonda I mean oh yeah, I know where you really mean, yeah not the Venice no it's, it's up from Venice,Quan Quan yeah Quan, and this massive great pottery and this big, yeah Whereabouts understand the They're nine, nine hundred and fifty pesetas each that's Which is four pound well thousand of francs is a fiver just half of that is a fiver And then like the smaller ones although they, they twenty five Yeah, but it's still a you see, I, I wove the basket and that little basket on there I, I and I sew this they're Spanish They're Spanish, oh I've been admiring that tonight and I bought it only cost be about what, I think we said er, what less than a pound each, them two ash trays and er I saw them on a rack and they were Georgey did you see the bought me? Well what was the first one we made? Jug and jug and cups, and all to go, to go with it Oh they're nice oh they're beautiful them The sangria jug and then there's six sangria cups to go with it. Sangria you have all fruit in it you know. We like, we, we like that don't we? Do you? Yeah you like, you, he likes the one that without sugar and I like the one with sugar No I don't , I don't That's the same You, you didn't like that one that me and Brian had two Oh no I didn't like that well that was what Yeah, but there weren't, there weren't drinking yeah our Brian and he went down and got him But you see there's a lot, there's so many different ways of making sangria, I mean you can make it real rough like just cheap wine, what it should be, cheap wine, sugar and, and fruit, I don't when I make it I put rum or whisky liqueurs sugar and erm Tia er not Tia Maria, creme d' banana or something like that, yeah and erm plenty of ice cubes Plenty of ice, yeah and leave it and then er it's, it's the fruit that makes you silly. yeah The ones that I, I enjoyed and then there were ones that he had oh that were horrible, it was vile, yuck I didn't like that. I made one out of a pale wine a ros wine as well, the girls don't like the red wine, but they like the ros wine I don't like red wine see you like the ros then do you? but that really . You see in Spain you buy packets of wine, they're like Yeah thirty pence a packet for a pint, so you buy six of them Oh it's cheap innit? Oh yeah Oh yeah that's why, that's why it's Spanish cos it was, the fruit is cheap the wine is cheap That's right and that's why they make it, it's only punch after all innit? Yeah When we go down to the market and erm, what they call it Porta Man Curit I mean Bwangdirola Bwangdirola you go round there, right You get a kilo of cherries for sixty P One, the one section, one section of it, it's all women clothes and lace ware and beautiful clothes and so on, you know it's a market but you know and little places of pottery and so on and then the next section you go down this old market, there's a old big square and you walk on there and you're talking about, you go to buy avocados over here , you're buying sixty and seventy pence for one, and you're paying sixty pence for about bloody six over there For a kilo and they're bloody great big things like that. Steve made me laugh he said we'll have some mushrooms so me showing off I said erm, how much, how much did I, a kilo, a kilo of mushrooms when I come back I got Yeah and you should, you should of said and you know mushrooms are so light I should of said little half a kilo I only wanted half, but I had a kilo, bags and bags and bags Cherries and grapes we got strawberries cherries, strawberries, grapes the bloody lot, seedless grapes, grapefruit you see that's what you Yes that right I don't know how they arrive at all their bloody prices over . Strawberries are dear Yeah, oranges, they're beautiful oranges And I used to Lovely big grapes beautiful oranges we used to have nets and nets of oranges and we used to get up in the morning and just squeeze them squeeze them and bits of ice fresh orange ice in the make, nice fresh orange juice for breakfast, put it on the patio and yes have some with toast and marmalade Mm and and plenty of drink cos the drink's so cheap out there yeah and er just to, just to sit, it was just that Penny and Kev and Pam and Grant have got different ways in their mind to where we are, we don't go anywhere in a hurry, I don't go somewhere and think oh I've got to be back at ten o'clock Oh no you know, and they were, as soon as we got out it was let's have dinner quick Yeah, yeah and get back, that's what got him down, and I mean we don't when we go out we don't sometimes go out until ten at night and then have or nine and go out and have a drink and then you find somewhere I tell you what I, I enjoy doing as well I mean I've only done it while I've, I've been out er abroad with gang of them, it's like, you know when everything's quietened down Mm everything's closed up, I love to walk in the nude well at night when we've come back from wherever we've been with Wendy, it was a ritual to walk round, cos on the, on the where the villa is there's the most beautiful restaurant you've ever seen Oh don't get me wrong I don't like doing this every night. it's a Swiss restaurant, it's closed innit? Mm And then in, in the front you can go and sit there before you sit and have a Their son had his Sierra broken into and erm er a good thing, no were not actually there. Got it back, there was erm a blanket in the boot and when they took the blanket out it was all ten thousand pounds worth of drugs and needles and everything in it, so the police have took it all back and they've written it off, so they've got a new Nissan, a Bluebird Yeah, it's fabulous so erm, as I say but But you see the parts of these cars now, right, like erm, what you say Nissan and blooming Toyota's and so on, right, they've got their factories open here Yeah if you went to Burton-On-Trent I think it's Toyota, you ought to see the size of that blooming place, er it's right huge where they're manufacturing cars, eventually, well probably now parts of these are, are, are going to be cheaper. They're going to be cheaper for the English market but they'll have to put on their prices for the export market for those that are going out yeah the company expect this yeah but don't these Japanese factories who their idea now are, are they about to tend Ford's are blooming, all these people are are gonna start suffering Well Vauxhall are suffering already aren't they? Because they're too , because they're too blooming expensive yeah Jill was saying they made another twelve redundant at Creda Graham's jobs changing all over when they go back at Easter Mm and er I think Lee thought he was losing his job didn't he? When is Easter? It's late this year it's about the end of April innit? Yeah mind you, we're nearly the end of March now Yeah and that's another thing I found I had a letter from the Social Security saying would you please send your order book back you're not entitled to any more money, your sickness benefit's run out, I thought it can't have, I don't go back until the twenty fifth of March, phones up for the appointment I got it on the fifth of March, nine days ago Oh so I'm gonna have to try and get up early tomorrow and get a definite appointment with doctor if Does she not find no what she say, is she well enough not well enough to do that, so I'm not looking for a job yet, she said your nerves are all she, keeps checking me for the thyroid as well now, every time I go and the tablets are all going haywire, she takes a blood test, a blood thing you know, your pulse every time I go Well at least you know what is responsible for half of the things that have gone out yeah but, it quite such a burden is it? no. See what he's doing with his fur, look scratching and it's going off and, he knocks his fur off and then it falls, falls out look at him the Yeah probably, if er Yeah probably he has to scratch wouldn't make that if you it's cos he went up mum's the other day and they've all got it but I don't like yeah but if they get it in the fur though get him a flea collar The trouble is, if you put, I bought him one, but it knots all his fur up well and it's a hell of a job getting them knots out of his fur, it's a real problem Benji he knows he knows his name, you ain't been walkies today have you? He did have one today all morning came down, I think he came down and all of a sudden blop, he was back with him, he stays out there all the time when come down. He likes his he's fed up with old age, he wants to go for a walk you've been walkies today? He's so soft Have you, have you been in your garage yet with sold on, what you can sell and what you can't sell? Oh well you half a bloody greenhouse Mm you don't wait until the last because I say if he's got a key and he can get in Well he's got a key yeah and he bought a key oh but the policeman said there's, there's no way he can just walk up there and come in the house Yeah but who is to say he won't if he's go to Yeah he's got a key Well I don't, I don't have to give him a key as long as I let him in, you don't have to have a key, but he can arrange, he can arrange for me to be there to be there and the police said all I have to do is phone the police and say well he wants to come and look round the property can I have a policeman there cos I don't want so he's not allowed to take anything out yes , no well if I were you I would start sorting out if there's anything good in there that you can make a few bob out of mm you can sort it out Sell the yeah you sort it out and That's what we said yesterday you should have sold that car Yeah although the cops I tell you what said if I would have sold that car next to nothing I would have been done for it Was it? yeah, it went for, four. how much did he sold it for do you know? Don't know , no But your solicitor will sort that yeah you, if there's any money to come back on that he said that will all look bad on him he said if he sold it and er don't I, he, he said he's got two choices, he either sells that car and pays off the loan in both your names or he, he sells that car and gives you half half and he said and if he sells the car and keeps all the money and spends it on himself he says that's gonna look, he's gonna look really bad oh yeah but you know what he was taking out of his bank that's what he to do with yeah and that's what he they'll get into the, they'll get into that garage right, so they look and see things they didn't know that they can make money on Well there's, there's erm , there's er erm hydraulic jack in there with all the bits, brand new that's in there Tell you what if they've got a hydraulic jack in there, several people have to buy it off him, the boys will buy it off there's , there's a, a small jack red or about as big as that like that What, the jack? and it's got three ton Three ton? Yeah, that's there There, I'll tell you what, the garage, were always looking for blooming things like that, that's what they want to Oh I, I know that this, this little jack takes more weight than the hydraulic one and he's meter in there ain't there? That, that real nice electrical meter what they call them, erm What like Daph's? yeah, I ain't after that you want to put all your, wanna put it in a box of, and see what you selling and then if there's anything that's then you won't I don't know what he took, no one here, full stop, they can't say well he can't say well I left it here either and he's got any proof no you sell them it and make yourself a there's some very there's some odd, odd tools up there yeah Pete also said you'd, you'd be best to keep your drill, your electric drill drill, cos you never know when you're gonna need a drill, then I'll show you how to use that yeah, yeah I've got bloody drills here and all sorts you don't want a Yeah make yourself some money, Kev was looking for a drill, but the trouble is you you don't get your money off Kev will you? Mm I don't know what else is up there Er you want to let him have a look yeah take him over Pete , Pete Have you got your money off Rachael yet? No, I've sent her book back, I've got her book it's going back Why? They've altered all the money again haven't they? I had, I had a letter, I had two letters one for her and one for me saying would you please send your book back for her and mine send your book back cos I ain't qualified for unless I phone them up tomorrow and say look, you know, I, she, if she keeping on the club she'll go backdate it Will she? Yeah, all I've got to do then is send, send it in and I'll phone them and say well can I cash it up and still on the club and they'll say yes but I'll have to get up and get round there tomorrow then She's good though she's kept mm she said she would didn't she? yeah I don't know where it's all coming through now I tell you I said to that bloke today well how, how long am I gonna be before I go to court, he said it could be two years away Did he? Yeah Well that's ridiculous he said well it all, it all depends how quick you want a divorce What have they said about your divorce then? Nothing You've not heard nothing about it? No I can't understand it, what if some people with families been evicted or chucked out or whatever? Seems strange don't it? Mm Oh I've put in for one to pay the erm interest on the mortgage, which I have to do and that's all being seen to because I've had another letter saying can you tell me what this second loan were for and I've put down yes, it was for windows and sent a bit of paper er, you know, that we've paid four thousand seven hundred and something, five thousand, nine hundred and something we've paid for them windows and I've spent that They get paper first before you sending them money No, but I've asked for them to be returned, it's only gone to the D H S S in Wellingborough Your aren't half losing weight though still you ain't getting your down periods now are you? No, I only had one Coping with this morning You did? Mm What over that? Yeah Yeah, but, I think that was more shock than anything Yeah Oh that reminds me as well what your how you getting on better down, you know, your poll tax business, are you getting any relief on the cheaper unit? Course I'm not You're not? Of course I'm not because you're at work Oh there's I can't understand that either, they ain't getting no relief off of their poll tax and yet they're, yet she's not at work and he's on the dole, and they still having to pay full whack. I says to them Is that true? that's not right, I said you get, you get twenty per cent reduction off Yeah they'll get sixty percent sixty percent, I'm expecting a bailiff at my door any day If, if, if, if it's, if it's, if it's, if it's two of you living in the house right the poll tax isn't paid by one person, it's each person is, is responsible for their own poll tax No they're not No, if one's not working and the other one's working, the one that isn't working's supposed to get relief on it No, you're wrong, you're wrong, you're totally wrong dear, because as long as one's at work As long as one's at work you're responsible for mine and if I'm at work I'm responsible for yours, I wrote to the D H S S Mm I had a paper to say and they said there was too much money coming in here a week, because you were working that I couldn't get anything and I, it said, I wrote, it, it all come when I wrote to say could I have relief off of prescriptions cos I was on that H I V at the time Yeah and they said no, I weren't entitled to it No I'm not entitled to, if I'm, I'm entitled to pay up to eighty pounds on a maximum dentist treatment, which is a hundred and thirty pound A hundred and fifty pound. I could pay, I would have to pay the first eighty somewhat and I would have to pay the first ninety, ninety somewhat on a pair of glasses I had all this then it went and then it went into If I if you've got people in prison and then you had to go visiting you, you could get relief after, after the first twenty five pounds, so if the expenses were going to see somebody in prison were more than twenty five pounds I could get relief with them Er how could I, I mean, is there a I mean there's so much of money coming in the house every week I'll kill him, they don't worry, they don't worry about what, what bills you've got going out, I E a car on H P or your or erm furniture on H P, when you're on on the dole you're you ain't supposed to have had any bills incurred whether you still pay them tax wise they now I've still got my redundancy money I weren't thirty days without it, or I'll Yes, but this is not, yeah save mine up this is not a this is er, this is er, erm, how do they call it? I think it's imposed by, by the laws of England Mm right, this whole tax business, this is not a thing when you incur the they've stuck on you, right so I mean alright, I'm paying, I'm paying my food if you work it out this year, right, Joy keeping her dole right, this one, say having this whole thing out, right, she'd pay right, I bring home wage, right believe it or not I'll tell you it's about between a hundred and eleven and a hundred and fourteen pounds a week, that's forty and ten, that's a hundred and fifty pounds a week, right, now if she got to pay poll tax out of that, right, what she's getting which is twenty odd pounds a month Mm I've got to take twenty odd pounds a month, right and forty that's forty that's fifty pounds innit for a month, so that's a month No that's a month so it's fiver a week Yeah fiver a week yeah plus your rent yeah, plus your rent plus your gas and your electric and your living yeah you know, you ain't got nothing to live on at the end of the No you've not so this is what I'm saying how come that the she's still got the poll, we have to, got to pay poll tax at that rate because she's not working Mm, they told me though that there's too much money coming in the house, you, you, you're only allowed to have I think it's about sixty something Yeah pounds from to get any relief if any of it's well I know when, I know when Alan and Jade were both made emplo , unemployed and Alan withdrawal his dole and when Jade was unemployed they took the dole off Alan and give him sixty pound a week which was you know Income support income support so the dole I had, I had a letter the other day saying that I'd been paying thirty nine pounds, fifty a week to live on, but I've been entitled to fifty five pound something for low income support so are they gonna backdate all that and then get their I reckon they'll have to, yeah they will have to surely, that's their error they'll have to They said a, a normal person living on their own is only entitled to thirty nine pound sixty a week and that's what I've got in that book, but I don't think they realise that I I'm on me own and I've got a gas, electricity and everything else to pay out of that I don't know how, I, I as I say I can't figure it out how they work it out though because I mean are they I don't know whether they I was so annoyed I thought to myself If you go down Citizen's Advice it's all done, on a big, on a big board down there what you're entitled to You would have been , you, you, you would have been better off paying your normal rates as you used to pay Yeah, yeah than in actual fact because they're making a that's what Kevin and Cindy said their rates on that house were a hundred and something pound a year, their poll tax is nearly four hundred Four hundred they're paying three hundred and eighty pounds, they're paying Yeah, they're better off paying the normal rates said it's ridiculous and they've stopped this on you and they expect you to pay all this amount of money I don't know Yes, we did have some good news about that court case, about that accident we had, it's all been thrown out of court What car accident? You know we had an accident along where we opened that car door and that cyclist Oh yeah hit us in the side? Well they got to court without a solicitor cos they weren't entitled to Legal Aid, and now you see that's another thing, they're both out of work, they weren't entitled to any Legal Aid, so they had to go on their own to court Yeah and explain the situation and the court said oh well we'll take it to the magistrate's then, then he had a letter two weeks later saying that it's been thrown out again, they haven't got a case cos she were in the wrong, she's never, ever have gone over round the left hand side in the first place, but she must have been in the wrong so they must have seen it as well, they haven't really got a strong case so they threw it out of court and last week he had a letter, he opened it, from the, from the court, and he thought oh gawld here we go again, he's got jury service, oh How old is he? Oh right, I'd love to do that So would I, it's in April I'd love to sit in it said if you are on the dole or unemployed or whatever you must take this form down, because he's entitled to So, so, so much per day Yeah or whatever it is, yeah yeah, yeah, for, for, for fee, for a, for a meal yeah I don't know why, if he gets put on a murder case he's there for three weeks in a hotel, it's easy he said well I, you'll be able to come over if you want to it'll be like sitting at work, no one will know It might be, I think in actual fact during your er, I think it might be a waste of time, but I think it's probably advisable to try and find out a bit more about this I've been darling, I, believe me I've, you ain't gotta do it Well I've got to go down tomorrow, I ain't got a clue what to do. I rang, I rang, I went to the dole office, when I went down I ask them as soon as I left Ann said the same, go down the dole when you ask about your poll tax, they said to me we can't give you any id , er anything, you have to phone them, council building site, I phone the council building and they asked me, that's why I sent all your wage slips in for Yeah and that was for that, then I had a letter back to say that we were having, there was too much money coming in a week for me to draw unemployment and then they, then a few days later I had this double page letter a big one that says you are entitled to no prescription help, X amount of pounds after erm eighty pounds per glasses you are responsible for the first eighty pound, we say that you can afford to pay that, so much on your teeth, if you're visiting somebody in prison then you exceed a certain amount of mileage you can only get it if you exceed more than twenty five pound incurring, then I thought oh blow it, forget it, and I never done it, that all come to then, that's why I wanted a ten of your wage, wage slips you remember now? That's it. Yeah, a hundred and eleven pound a week Oh say, say about my fault, I shouldn't want to pay I, I tell you what I've got more money, I've got more money than that and after I've been, after, after I've paid, after I've paid the tax and I'm not, I'm not paying mine before October cos as far as I'm concerned it was paid, he has my wages out of that and my National Insurance contributions, that's all I come out with Mm So like I even said that to the coppers today I said he's been handling seventeen hundred pounds near enough near as damn it That's right a month, I've been here none, my poll tax weren't paid, my mortgage owed three months, what's it, been three months in arrear Of course your wages were six hundred and something Yeah and he were coming out with eleven eleven hundred, eleven eleven hundred, yeah, yeah eleven hundred and sixty , seventy and you had a bit more nearly, nearly, nearly seven hundred pounds a month a month and he had over a thousand, one hundred a month Yeah nearly eighteen hundred pounds a month Did he now? and yet the mortgage was three months in arrears, no poll tax paid, no other bills paid, all he's paying is the gas, electric and the water rates I just don't see how they can waste that money, but there you are, I said that one day, I, I put down that fact today well I couldn't believe it when we went to Jersey and he was out of money and I couldn't believe it he ain't got any money and you were well he eight hund , how much he owed eight hundred pounds No five hundred quid overdrawn? Well he, he's on himself hanging over his car because he said it's, it's, that it was an inconvenience cos they were late for work, he suppose to be getting a taxi into work every day and back, but where's his proof that he did? He declared He's declaring that he's using a taxi and it costs him a hundred and sixty pound a month, every day back and forwards to work, well everyone knows that's a lie cos she takes him to work You ought to shop him for the income tax then I'm gonna As I say he's getting away Last word will be I said oh well, what I said to him well where the receipts to prove this paying this taxi, right I ain't got that, nothing well which, or which taxi firm you've been using mm and they get for the taxi books as well mm because I'll tell you what when they send a probe in, they go through every blooming thing with a fine tooth comb You can't believe where they know all what they know from er you didn't, it, it That Colin's come up today and he said, he said, did, erm, Dick do the job for you? I says what job? Yeah He says on the car, I says it's nothing to do with you and Chris, he said what about you trying to, you were going to break into his flat then and erm set light to it, where'd they get my information from? You see, I mean, what happens is erm I don't know If, if, if, if Jersey right where I used to have the, Joy used to have the house because this is once a year, there's not right they knew exactly how much money I was banking, how much money was going into the bank, I they always say, they always turn round and say well the bank is not su supp supposed to divulge how much money you've got in the bank now, now how did they have any ah? I don't know if they do the same over here Yeah where the bank is not suppose to disclose how much money you've got in that income tax man had go that copper man had told me this morning because you're suppose to declare what you earn What you earn, yeah for a year and pay the tax out of that yeah right mm but how did they they'll get, they'll get you When they start probing you, they go right back and I mean they went back what ten, twelve years didn't they? About twelve years when I was in Jersey Yeah yes It's frightening what they did to us. Well he said to Dave that a policeman hasn't got the clout to phone up the erm driving place you know in London where, where you thought that, what's it called D L V C It's the yeah, to see if that car's been sold, stolen or whatever and yet a solicitor come he said your solicitor will be able to pick up the phone, take you through the right channels, see if he's sold that car, he hasn't sold the car, who's he sold it to yeah, everything. He said that's what you've got to do first thing Monday morning, find out where that car is, he said, and then you want half the money seemed that the police and we've got a in theft and fraud and yeah things like this, but regards to the fact that when, when something is sold to somebody right, erm, and then a, and, and the person who's selling it receives the money, I mean the person the police can't do nothing at all about it unless fraud comes into it I mean, he, he said about come up mum's with the, and he snatched my handbag and he took the keys, he said that copper has got no rights to tell him to hand over them keys to me, I said what and he snatched them out of my handbag and I've got no rights to my own house keys and I said what rights have I got to do, down his flat and collect half of my stuff back then? Yes He said you've got no rights at all, I said so what rights has he got to coming in my own home then, he ain't paying for it, what rights has he got to it? What he say? He said well he's got rights because he owns half of it, I said owns half of it but he ain't paying for half of it. That's right He says no, but he, he, he still half owns it, he says his name's on the lease, I said but it still don't make it right that if he, if he earned half of it then half the bills are his Half the bills, that's right Then you've got to pay half the bills Yeah I said well I earn half of it as well then and I've worked for half of it, but I ain't paying the bills either Seems, it all seems strange to me He said it'll all come out in court, he said he, he won't get away with it Who said that? Oh that copper, he said he, he said the thing is he said what you've gotta do is give him as much shit and aggravation as you can possibly give him, keep him hot and keep him roasted up he said because what happens is he's getting along, long and he's thinking oh I can do this and I can do that and I can do the other, he said but if you can get your solicitor to keep him on his toes he ain't got time to think about nothing, he said and if he has done that job himself, he's laughing at the moment, I said well he must have done it I think that, I think in actual fact, that the only thing really to do is if he doesn't want to be himself do something else and then he won't do it ever again And then he should sign it all over to me He should sign it all over to you and say alright I'm relinquishing all responsibility But he can't do that, until he's paid up every penny he owes I was gonna say Yeah if she, if she gets it all signed over to her she signs all the bills over but you see yeah well then he can't do that anyway, for him, for him to sign them deeds no and everything over to me, he's got to be paid all the loans completely off plus the mortgage that's in arrear, that, that house got to be round to square one with a, with a fourteen thousand pound mortgage and that's it before he can sign that house over to me Yeah That means that the two loans that he had, he can't sign them over to me And that was on the house? Yeah Oh well he can't sign it over No he can't to me even if he wanted to I didn't know whether he had two loans or not or whatever it is because Yeah he had two that if had relinquished all his responsibility regarding the mortgage and so on and signed it over to you, then you could have turned round and say alright that's it, I'm going to sell the house That's right and there's nothing he could do nothing about and if the house was , and if the house is, if say for argument sake that the house after you've sold it, you've only your, er fourteen or sixteen thousand pounds to pay then and you've paid that off, right, and the house was sold for about forty thousand Mm right, you've made yourself a, your, twenty thousand anyway, then you could probably buy a, a nice little two bedroom bungalow Yeah for about thirty thousand or something like that and then go back to work and just pay your own mortgage off Yeah, but I can't do that but a, as I say if it's, you know, if he gotta pay off all this money first well Well you're such at the minute cos you've got, you're sitting in your house Yes you're in care of bills that he's, he's responsible for anyway mm he's gotta be, you wanna make sure that that electric bill I'm going back down, I'm going down there Monday Good say I give you no authorization I'll fight I don't want mail coming to my house addressed to me, my husband is still in charge of these bills, but you don't change it over, I shan't open them I shall just return them back to you, frighten them. I mean that's like they went into Nigel's and put that erm Well that's that's why the gas, gas and electric leaflet men come up with them for me to sign, I said I'm sorry I'm not signing them and I wouldn't sign any of them and he went back and he said alright then we'll leave it in your husband's name, I said yes you'd better had cos he still owns the house, yet all those bills have come through, I've had water rates come through in my name, I've had the electricity come through it's in my name, the only one bill that was never in his name, never has been is the telephone and that's included But I say that, they've got no right to just change your, your name over, I mean, basically, really and truthfully when we got this place Rudy weren't on, on, he never signed on on nothing No when this place come it should have been in my name weren't it, because he never done nothing for it no Yes, no he were never even on the bills, on the papers no where you? No Never even knew I was the one but all the things , everything that comes now comes to Mr and Mrs , you know? Yeah, that's right Yeah the only thing that doesn't is my telephone bill, it comes sort of under I F, which is if Which is if I'm a Yeah but erm, I, I can't understand why because when I put in for the my, my house I didn't put him, he weren't even on the pap paperwork and all of a sudden he, he They only had half my name as well he was pulled in, I mean I went, I went all out to get this place in nineteen eighty three It seemed that he didn't know nothing about it what, you see, what, what happens you see, I mean all my re all the transactions here are done through banker's orders you see and the banker's orders they, they won't know who, who ever it is going to be responsible you know, but you've got to put down the wife and, and yourself, see Mm but this is where, where it goes back to the, to the house yeah as Mr and Mrs you see? yeah. Yeah, but you see that's why when Tracy come to me saying she wanted to, to exchange her council house I was annoyed because I said no, I got that council house for Tracy it's in her name Mm Yeah if she relinquished that name and puts it in, in name name yes and anything breaks up, Tracy's lost her home, she'll never get another one No I fought for them two, to get that home for her, so I said no, the only way you'll do it, and I, when she were on her own, I said, not that I don't trust Nigel, I do, but you don't know what's gonna happen in ten, in ten years time, I said I fought for that house for you, if you exchange it, you exchange it in your name Yeah Well she come up the other day, they wanted to exchange Kelly's old house for, for, for her, somebody wants it er part exchange Kelly's house, you know then go and Mm I said, she said it's got an extra bedroom, Okay I can see that she's got an extra bedroom and they can perhaps do with one now that they got a boy, but, I said, you know, don't, what have you got what you've got, you know at the minute Yeah she said she's had all her own central heating Yeah done all her double glazing Yeah all her kitchen, all her new bathroom Yeah what you moving out for? In another twelve month's time Yeah, I mean the boy gets, the boy gets as the boy gets older obviously the council will look into it because you can't have a wife sleeping in the same room Two boys That's right as a boy, therefore why don't they but as I say that's, that's the only thing, but then on the other hand they can't fall out with me will they? No Before I lose that home I've got, I'm I know, I know so bloody stupid, look at him Well I shall hand it back, if I'm a single person, I'm entitled to one of them single people's bus then aren't I? Yeah but as I say it's the same as when you know we come over when we went up to the the place, I mean, the chap down at the housing down there, try to say to me we made ourselves homeless Yeah I said how can you make yourself homeless if you've been evicted? that's right You have made yourself but you see they do , You were evicted from a country weren't you? From another country you, you, you, you get, do you we've never owed rent but that weren't no fault of your own we never owed any rent, that was done through banker's order as well Yeah to, to yeah but you see I would like to say they didn't understand the cultures of another country and how it works and it was as simple as that, it was only until that I got all the paperwork from Germany that the letters and one thing and another, but somebody in there said to them well you're talking rubbish cos the girl's telling you the truth The truth Mm, mm and then and then Miss said you'd better come down and we'll have a talk about it, I've learnt a bit more about your ex country Yeah So, then, then we got into it he said I'm sorry I thought you made yourselves homeless, cos you just wanted to come home, I said no, way, I said we didn't even want to come home, I said we were very professional people Yeah at the time, I said we were, I was doing sixty hours a week in me car, we were doing six nights a week cabaret and he was driving all day Yeah but I said why come home and miss a season like that in the middle of August? I said I didn't make myself homeless and he said no I didn't realise by November we, well we went down, that was the September and by the October we got our home didn't we? Yes And we got, he got stuck into it, but, that's, that's how people, if you don't get somebody who's working for you, you'll get somebody working against you, and that's what I had, a good solicitor with you at the moment is, gotta be vital, I only hope she's doing her job So do I oh I'd better go, thanks for a lovely dinner So what's Adrian gonna do now? Dunno, oh he's, he's what, he's been for another job interview and the bloke Has he left that job? Yeah, the bloke in he's gonna let him know tomorrow I thought he was saying, I thought he said he was gonna stay in that job He got the sack He got the sack, cos he got up and left his job overslept and annoyed erm Rachael because she woke him up twice and said come on you've got to go to work, he said alright then, she, she went back to bed thinking he'd get up and of course he were still laying in bed, I woke him up at five to eleven, said come on you're an hour late, but when he got down there they said no it's no good you've got the sack, and he said well it's your own fault then cos you were woke up twice by Rachael at nine o'clock, he hadn't, he could have got up and gone to work, just idle we met him twice, it really upset him Did it? Yeah, cos he's lost all his college as well ain't he? Is he? Oh yeah Yeah, yeah Will he be back into Well he wants to, but I said you'll, you'll got a, you'll it's a long ladder to climb now and you'll never get another job like that Well he won't get a reference No I said he won't He won't get a reference see for reliability No He'd have been better off to of crawled back down there and apologise Yeah and said well I'll do an extra shift, I'll do an extra week shift if you give me my job back it's a shame Mm that's what that girl's just said to me you get a lot of erm, she said he'll know it's hard and I was saying that you know I, I put all me eggs in one basket with that, I mean that really knocked me for six I've gone down hill since then, but she said you know these folks are hard when you've been out of work for a long while, you've gotta just get back up and fight again, I said, she said and I know how hard that is, but she said you know, if you can get it going and fit and get in, so Why she saying this? she's just giving, she's just give me an adult education centre there at Spinny Hill, Northampton and she said they put everything in perspective for you so that you know where you've got to start, what is available to you and then she said if you go down the job centre and ask them if E T, education, employment training Mm so they, just so they just call it E T, she said they can actually send you to a place where you can get you, your experience and er because they've sent you, you get an extra certain amount, ten pound a week, cos you're going through the job centre Mm but you got to have been out of work six months, so I said well I've been out of work six months, so she, I've got that to do tomorrow, so I get up the firm this Spinny Hill, Northampton, that's an adult education centre where you can go and learn the skills of your trade, but she said that might not start until September Mm on the course you see? Yeah But if, with this job one, they could, they could say right well we'll put you in a mental home where you will learn your skills, but you will only get ten pound a week Yeah, I don't care about that, but at least I'm making a move at least you're getting a bit of experience aren't you? We're getting somewhere making a move Yeah and by the end of that it'll be, make me mind up whether it's what I want What you want to really do or not, ah Maybe one will send you Right I'll see you later then Where you going now? Home Oh are you? Yeah Are you going near mum's? No I doubt it Oh Oh really I ought to take my little boy for a walk You've been walkies today darling ah, you've been a little walkies today oh, oh, oh, oh Right I'll see you later then Alright love, alright See you later Yeah when, don't forget what I said get down in that garage Yeah, I will, sort it all out yeah, and and sort it out, let me know and then I will take it down to work Okay, alright then, I'll see you later Okay, yeah Ta ta Yeah ta ta love Oh my baby, shall we get some din-dins? To, to, to get down there and try helping themselves oh I know Wendy, she lives, where she lives Semi I know Wendy, I know Pam Pam there's not a Pam is there? Derek and Jo Yeah I know them and Jill yeah, they had a big family Glad old Pete Well she eats well, erm, she's not too bad, you know, she's erm dad's been a creaky door for years and years and years Yeah mum told me that erm I mean he does well really I put my mum and dad's Do you? Yeah first thing in the morning Do you drive? No,I failed twice Did you? Then you packed in? I packed it in I thought what's the use I haven't got enough confidence Who'd the peeping Tom done then? Yeah, yeah, yeah Oh so so it's like traffic judgement then I suppose No If anything happened at light you'd be mixed up weren't you? Were No if you kept going You know they have the, you know the big banks yeah But if you ain't got that, you ain't gonna be He's lovely He's a lovely little boy, he's got a lovely nature You're a good boy ain't you? What you after? Get out, oh I You're not going up there, no, no, you're not gonna, what, he's lovely He married erm, Charlie Yeah, me sister's married erm, Joy's sister Cheryl is married, she, she married her name is David You know they keep hatching it out you know Pat Steven all of them in Park Avenue Oh is it Pat that's got the bad back? Yes that's the one, the one who's got three stone that one yeah That's right well she's, well Charlie said he David oh well she's expecting in August What What I come down there once to Why? the factory, ooh about a year ago, cos I Why? probably in that building there at the back but I couldn't see your She gives half Yeah the kitchen people, yeah yeah, they still there is he? well they're not doing much I'll tell, I'll tell you what that's, I think that's what's doing me up, it's not being out of work it's going out, it's the things that I mean normally Yeah, but I know I get up do me hair, put a bit of make-up on I mean I know Cheryl I know four until about half eight tomorrow night I'm on my feet so you're ready for a sit down and my back , my back, my legs ache from here I'm in you'd be fed up sitting about all day and all night Yeah, but I don't want having it? I just give it all away didn't I Rudy my knitting What's that? she's saying she enjoys knitting I just gone and give a great big plastic bag full plastic bag full oh eh are you like me you're always too late? Yeah I give it, I'll tell you who I give it to Deanne do you remember Deanne ? Yeah I she? do you? Wendy, Pam, David, Michael no, I don't think I do Who Pam? My cousin Do you, when Mark kept going on driving me, well learnt me to drive can drive, but she won't be quick enough to make a decision That's all it is That's all it is, all it is when you get older you're, you're decision gets longer I did, I did get in his car I did in fact Yeah, well to make a decision quick and we sat and to make a right one and we sat on his Well it's funny he's got, he's got his house right on the hill in Wales and er we went down Did I tell you, you know, I often stay in Wales your boat didn't we? And I couldn't get out and I was gonna give you some of this wine that time, and I was on the way out I started his car up and set his car in reverse You've got two cars up there ain't you a mini and a green one ain't you? the yellow one, the yellow van is Rudy's, the red mini is mine, not the cream mini, up, the one to this one next door did you go and knock on her door to see where we were? Yeah, next door Which one? Next door Oh yeah had a hell of party when we got here you know No we don't he came round here swearing at no we got Rudy weren't about because we were building the conservatory, we were off to Spain the next day That's right and erm there's me I mean they take their there's Trevor shoes off nowadays, but before the other time, he there's erm, darling he er, said if you get your And Brad door really, says I'll squeeze the floor for you so that you there's Charlie it's got two weeks to set because right the floor were all over everywhere right, we should have some big bowls as well, you know, then we'd gone so She'll see two years old in December Oh yeah so we'll pop round when Erm he's had two I've been smoking on and off like a chimney and then packing it up I broke this week Why? I don't know Can you see up there? Oh talk about doing some excavation, she's ever so nosy Is she? Yeah, well, you've gotta behave, is she supposed to be up there, will he hurt anything? Are you sure? Yeah Some, some folks are funny cos they No, do what he likes girl. How you keeping alright? Yeah, not bad I can't go up, it never registered, when you said hello are you alright and you said yeah, oh, a load of bloody boys and I can't picture Yeah But I saw, I went into town yesterday, haven't been into town and I saw er, I'm just going up past the job centre I had to go to council about me money and I thought well I suppose I ought to make an effort and look in the job centre cos I, I ain't done because I've been in catering all the while Yeah and I'm, I'm brassed off with him and I thought I'd know that mug face, it's Maureen What in the job centre? I'm dying to stand behind Geraldine in the dole queue and I said no waste your bloody time applying cos you won't bloody get it anyway She said hello she said how's your dad? I said oh I'm afraid he died, he was cremated on Friday, she said ooh I am sorry It she said that she'd seen Julie and Julie Oh yes you know? I don't think many people are, don't ask No, I mean it's, it's nothing, I rang erm Social Services this morning in Northampton and I got an appointment for an advisory thing on Thursday morning, erm, the women I'm going to see she retires on Friday, she said well I'll have to get you in quick, erm and she, they advise you on the, what you've got to do to get into what I want to get into you see, so erm I've got that to sort to do, I mean Well that's what you really want though innit? I really disa Is she alright there, sure? I was really disappointed cos erm I didn't get that one from Mencap cos that was in Rushden Yeah, because that would've been ideal. Mm, I thought I'd get it, I really did think I'd get it and I went down with a bump when I didn't Did you? Yeah, it knocked me for six hang on, hang on, I said look she said who, I said Joy, she said oh blimey is she, I said yeah, so he hung on a bit but he'd cos there's nobody there today I could've come earlier cos I've been over Tracey's since quarter past one, as I was coming out the Jehovah Witnesses were coming out Oh where they? and erm, I always have them in and have a chat, you know, I don't Yeah , yeah well that's what Pauline does sometimes when I go up she has them in for friendship, a bit of company innit? That's right, I just, I always say to them you're welcome to come in and have a coffee you know, I don't really, I've got me own views, I'm not really interested in what you've got to tell me, I know all about it, but you know you're welcome to come in Come in that's right and they come in and have a coffee, that's it, good boy, and erm, er, so, I, I said well I'm gonna have to go I'm going over to me daughter's she's just had a baby so So what did she have? Another, she had a little boy Oh Yeah she alright? Tyler she's named him Oh, she alright? Yeah, fine, her new, her new erm fella's lovely Is he? Yeah, he's got so much about him leave her alone now? Who? That bloke Oh yes, yes, oh yes yeah rubbish, oh we have Last time I spoke to they, two days before I'd left, me, me, me, me, me all the while they would not shut their over there anyway, cos I'm doing the work for and I wrote it all down, couple of days Oh, yeah we had another trauma erm, Have you had enough to eat? Eh? Yeah I'm fine, you know this erm, you know this young girl that was killed along Benji Avenue with her mother? Well I thought it was Wendy's daughter Did they? Half past eleven at night they went and knocked Wendy's door and says can you give me some photos of your daughter and there were two girls and they thought that they were the only two and the woman said that the only two girls I know that are alike them, their age group, erm, er are Nicholas daughter and erm, and erm her friend Oh my god, and erm strange, having a look round and er, anyway, they had to get photos and they said well we don't think this is her, but we'll come back Oh but, then the next morning of course when Wendy got home she'd been down my nephew's looking after the kids for them and erm, and said we've come to arrest you, and no, oh Rachael said oh mum there's a police car pulled up outside, so she said, oh my god don't tell me they're wrong and it is Tracey, cos Tracey's left home, she's gone to live with her friend and erm, anyway, when Wendy got to the stairs she couldn't go in, she couldn't go any further and she said erm, when, when the policeman said Mrs I've come to arrest you, she just about said Christ she said what have I done? They said well your husband's car's been vandalised and they think it's you that's done it so we've come to arrest you so she said oh I thought you've come to tell me it were me daughter that was dead and he said, he said what you talking about? She said well the police were here after eleven last night, that young girl that was killed on Benji Avenue they thought it was my daughter, they've got all the photos Oh it's terrible and he just said oh I'm so sorry he said I wouldn't have come if I had known, but there was a massive wreath in the garden where that girl was knocked over Yeah, I can see it Yeah, she said It was Is she, she getting worse? Brain damage ain't she? Cos of they left three children in the house Yeah, that's what Alan said they were away weren't they, she'd only gone to walk the dog That's right, yeah Ain't it a shame? I know its dreadful Never know what's gonna happen those bleeding idiots Two young boys Yeah er chasing in a X R X you know Scott you know he's a swine now Scott Is he? From a I think his mother don't bloody want him, he's a pain in the arse, but she said, I reckon she said piss off and and he really is immature now Yeah said he was running round to see his dad and he's got a car now, he passed his test, he's got a little Renault and he's as stupid as a and he comes out from at two o'clock on Saturdays and whizzes round the town doing wheelies round the town so I said to him last night Scott sit down I want you to read something, I said take a good look at the paper, I said it could've been you, doing that, you think you're so fucking clever and big running round the town, I said it only takes you to lose control go up the bloody curb and bang, that's what happened, I said think about what the hell you're doing Mm said it's just one big joke it didn't go in Yeah and it pisses me off cos I know like me I so wanna drive for the right bloody reason Yeah you know and, and these last couple of weeks with me mum I think oh if I could drive you know, but I thought cor there's an idiot like him On the road Yeah, it ain't worth him passing his sodding test No I don't know how he did it. Well, you don't know that, I mean it's, I, that's what I've said all the way along this, this world's getting to be that the wrong person Priorities wrong Yeah, the wrong people are in the wrong jobs Yeah ain't they? yeah, that's quite worrying Where did their daughter went to yeah she came home Did she? Why was that? Back at home, back at school and everything now, I don't know, she never ever told me the story, she used to talked to Steffy she used to shut me off, and I thought I'd no but, I, I forget who it were, it were either Lyn That was strange cos she's the only daughter isn't she? Yeah, I don't know the full story Mind you no, if Maureen's the same at, at home as she is at work then you can see why she left home well that's what we said, what we said so I think she still sees Cathy at times Who Maureen? Yeah, yeah, I mean I've never seen nor heard Mm, Cathy knew what they called her in the initial stage that's right, yeah, that's right I can't be doing with that No I can't I'm glad I'm out and I'm glad that I never see some of them bloody people again Well cos I said to Maureen have you seen anybody? She said I saw Julie cos when I left Julie said to me, Julie said oh if I when I told Alan oh well, we can't very well be whether Julie said she liked boys to go out with her, go, and we provisionally booked, I think it was the last week in February, we got quite a bit on, I said er if I can't make it I'll ring you, but then, oh that was it she rung me up, and she said Lynnie I said no Julie I said I haven't I said I would tell you cos I said I, she said to me do ring me and let me know, and I said I said I would and I will, I said no cos I didn't tell her when it were you see, so I said it's this week coming and I'll ring you this on Monday, so she said oh it was only, cos she said I saw Deb and Deb wondered, I thought yeah I bet she did she would Yeah fucking laugh, so I said to her no I said it is this week Julie I said and it's towards the end of the week but I'll ring you by the weekend and let you know, well of course come the Thursday morning I haven't seen Val, and I was ever so upset because it really the end of the line money wise, I couldn't do any more Oh the end of the last straw you see, so I went in the Co-Op and I felt really, really fed up, I said I oh I said I could cry I said because I've tried so hard I said not for lending you money I said, I'm not meant to have any sodding luck so got a couple of bits and I really couldn't get me act together and on the Tuesday dad's gone in hospital with that fit, so I was thinking of him a lot and I thought I don't know dad, you know I'm sure, I'm sure that he weren't gonna come out when he went in there, I thought they were gonna bloody find something with you boy and that would be it, so I come home here and I ain't done no work, so I started off for work, both sitting here bloody bawling cos this house looked like shit, spoke to me sister on the phone and er I felt a bit better so I thought oh I'd start doing the tree, so I pulled it all to bits in here, got the polish and duster out, put all the bread and everything for Alan's sandwiches, it'd be about oh, about half past twelve and the bloody phone went it was mum, she said Lyn do you think you can come up to the hospital with me, cos I've got no transport and so I said what's up then mum? So she said dad's got to go straight down now for emergency surgery, come on then, for emergency surgery and they want you to be there before he goes, oh christ perhaps I'm and erm I said well, so I rung Alan up I said Al can you get out? He said I can't I'm here on my own, he said get a cab and I'll give you the money back, so anyway I rung Pauline's husband up Steve and he said I'll take you, I said to Steve I've gotta get there for one o'clock cos I said I really do feel that if I don't see him before he goes I ain't gonna bloody see him, he was ever so good, he were here at twenty to one, got straight in the car put his foot down, went to the General and just as I got in the door Steve don't worry about me parking, go, I'll find you, just get in there, I ran through the bloody doors, ran up the stairs cos I knew where he'd be, and they were just wheeling him down, him crying Oh must've been frightened, cos he's never had in his life Ah So I held his hand all the way and mum was there and I said you'll be alright dad I said don't worry about it I said er, we'll be here when you come out, he said yeah alright, I'm alright, so as the surgeon came out he said look Mrs he said I've seen your daughter, yeah, I have to say this to you he said it's a fifty, fifty percent chance that John will come back from the operation, operation OK and he said it's a one hundred percent chance he won't without surgery of course he don't know anything, got his little cap on What and he heard him saying this? Yes, said to me dad and all, but I said to me dad I love you, I've always loved you you know and I'll be here when you come out I said you'll be out don't worry, crying when he went in when he went in mum started crying she said Lyn he ain't coming back he ain't coming back I said he might mum, he's just might so anyway that was, at one o'clock he went down, quarter past five, ring, we kept saying can you ring and see if, and they rung said be out the operating theatre to tell us how far they'd got and what was happening, he's had four units of blood That was Yeah yeah it was the one leading to the aorta, an aorta, they call it an aortic That's the main one to the heart then? bigger and anyway he came back and he said bloody packets of blood you know what oh, and it's ten percent of and erm, and I missed the he said and in all my years of surgery I've done a hundred and odd drainages and that is the biggest I've ever done, he said and I'll be totally honest with you he said if I'd have known how big it was I wouldn't have done the operation he said I really didn't know what I've let myself in for, he said he's had problems with leg and knee, he said he's got arterial disease and his arteries are all blocked, he said we've tried to put some down into his arteries and we can't get anything down there so they're blocked, but he said how the hell he survived that op I don't know he said they could've done more with his legs but it meant another hour and a quarter minutes in surgery, and he said he'd had enough we couldn't have kept him on the table a minute longer so he said all we can do is wait, so now mum said well he's alright in intensive care, he's responding well, getting over the operation well, but what we was worried about was him breathing on his own, had he, had he been you see, anyway he said this on er Thursday this was on the Thursday and he said er we'll leave him on the machine until Monday and then though we'll take him off, of course being on it for a long period to his brain, then they comes the next day, oh no that was it, they, then they, we left it, we left it, we left it, he kept saying we might have to make a decision, erm your dad's leg deteriorated he's got no circulation in his legs at all, we've found a pulse in his left leg but we can't find one in his right, he said I think you're gonna have to make the decision of amputation oh god, anyway comes Monday came off ventilator and of course he couldn't talk He knew you where there though? Yeah, he knew we were there, he was responding and erm, he said er, he's responding well to the operation and then on the Tuesday he went bright yellow and of course mum noticed it That's jaundice Yeah, so mum went into the ward and she said he's awfully yellow, is that normal? So the nurse said to the sister she said he's got a bit of jaundice, but they were whispering and Pete said well dad, so mum said no bloody jaundice she said, he, he then they got the gotta come off this was on, in the morning, in the afternoon they said his leg would deteriorate, they've got to take the whole leg off so he said we'll give it another go and see what happens, course by this time he said the operation hasn't the only reason that we could take his we can't take him down and put that right, wouldn't make it, he said he'd or any check so anyway he went right on until the Saturday and he said look, on the Friday they called us in and they said look we're gonna take him to the ward I'm afraid there's nothing else we can do, just deteriorating and he said there's no which in a way were pleased we haven't got to make the heart rending decision of him having his legs off, cos Denny told us, mum kept saying to him for three days, he would arch his back ooh, ooh, couldn't move, and mum said yes he when he's down he can't move, I said yes he can, she said he can't, and three times she told them and it weren't until the third day, they apologise, they said I'm awfully sorry we didn't realise just how because the is so close to Dad's spine it's Oh but then on the erm, Saturday, and the, that's, and then on I say then on the bloody Friday night what happened he fell out the bed I phoned and I said can you tell me how dad's so she said erm, erm, I said I only understand that he fell out of bed last night, so she said yes but he's quite comfortable now, I said is he, is he really? I said well I'm gonna come up in the next hour and I wanna who was on the ward last night and sister that was on today and I wanna know why and how he fell out of bed when I got up there they said would you like to come in, I said I most certainly would, she said erm, what would you like to say? I said what would I like to say, disgusted with the way he's been treated, I said my father left intensive care at one o'clock on Friday, we was told he was gonna leave there at four o'clock to go home and have a meal and be with him when he went on the ward, when we came back, he'd been moved, he'd gone on the ward, he was plonked in the chair, his catheter was on his lap, it had leaked all over him, his dressing was hanging off and seeping with green stuff the wound on his leg was run all down over his foot, he'd got no cover on his seat so he could see, Dave said they looked and they didn't look very bloody nice And your dad could see that? Yeah, and I said erm, and I said that weren't, if that wasn't enough I said bearing in mind he'd just come out of intensive care off a life support machine, I said and which I think that, that tells us that he needs a bit of extra care compared to some of them on the ward, I said I know they're all important and I know you're busy but I said I think you should've had a bit of priority, he was dying, and you know he's dying, you'd been told, she said yes that's right, I said but what really broke my bloody heart was from one o'clock that dinner time he sat in that chair, we left that hospital at half past eight and you assured us he'd go to bed and when we came in the next morning at half past ten Joy he sat there exactly the bloody same, in the same filthy blanket and the same catheter on him, oh I went fucking mad and I said how dare you, I said because somebody's told they're dying does that mean they've got to be forgot? I said he's my father and then he falls out the fucking bed when they put him in it because they admit negligence, they forgot to put the cot side up, dad has got lack of oxygen to his bra brain, he thought it was the Battle of Hastings going on but they said there was nobody there, well surely they must have known Joy he fell out the bloody bed because he's laying like this and he's falling and he's falling and bang come out, he split all his bloody head open, do you know the blood was there from the night he fell out, he fell out at half past ten at night and they never informed us, which is against the law and the blood still sat there at quarter to four the following day, all over the floor, he's got a bloody stitch in his head which they done to him while he were in the bed, and ripped three tubes out of his arm, split all his bloody arm open And your mum knows all this? Yes, we went fucking mad Was he insured? So you see I couldn't fight with them too much cos I thought they'd take it out on dad, so I said look I don't want him here, I don't need all this but I said another thing that got my goat, you asked my mum to help turn my dad, they asked my mum if she could help turn him because they didn't have enough staff or he couldn't be turned and when my mum turned him she come out and was sick and cried her eyes out cos he had no skin from the top of his spine to the bottom, and he had a water blister like that Joy yellow on his arm, his penis was nearly the width of my arm pouring with blood, and septic from the catheter, oh and the smell, you've never smelled nothing like it from the sores and the wounds, cos he was cut from here right the way down to here and they had a, all his legs were festering and gangrene in his legs They'd been better off just giving him an injection and put him to sleep Yeah and Mike's seen him like that and mum went round the ward and she made all the beds to help them and all, we had to bribe them to look after him, but was he looked after in the end, on Saturday I said look, I said don't fucking come over here and tell me my dad's gonna be turned in a minute I said because a minute is a minute, I said but when you come over here three and a half hours later to my dad that's like three years, he's in excruciating agony, he wants to turn him when you tell him you're gonna turn him Mm I said I understand your busy, I said if you can't turn him say, then I will turn him in an hour I can't do it before, fine, I said at least I'm not sitting like a prat telling him a load of rubbish Mm and I said then on the, on the Saturday his leg, his wound, he come out of intensive care on the Wednesday and on the Saturday his, his dressing hadn't been changed on his leg and it reeked and I said can we actually please have a clean dressing for my dad's leg, even if I've got to put the bugger on myself, that was at quarter past eight yes that was at quarter past eight Saturday morning and at ten to eight my aunty came at night and went fucking mad she said I want a dressing and I want it now, twelve hours ago I asked for that dressing and weren't done then came came up to say it was a matter of time he probably wouldn't last the weekend he was dying and he was on morphine tablets What she say, thanks to you lot so wondered he survived this lot . I went mad , he said well accidents happen, I said not with my fucking dad they don't not to my dad I said I'll tell you what Mr if I'd have known then what I know now I wouldn't even let you operate, I wouldn't Joy I would have said leave him alone, I wished he'd have died when the exploded Mm because it, all of that was terrible Was it, your dad was it? That what I say there's a lot to be said for going gracefully Yeah, and then that was come Saturday they'd rearranged the whole ward and they put him on a W R V S air bed, he were in heaven on this bed, I said why the fuck couldn't you have done that earlier? He fainted when they moved him, it was such an upheaval thought we'd lost him then, and then on a beautiful air bed and he looked it was too late came Saturday night he was on morphine tablets, I stayed with him all day Sunday, and I could see he was dying then, I stayed with him all night, all day, and then, gone Saturday night four children, me mum all round the bed waiting for the bugger to cos that's what they said, dad's so high on drugs and lack of oxygen, he's, he was comical, he was a bugger Mm you know we had a real laugh with him mm It didn't seem right, yet, looking at his face you'd, she'd thought he could have come home, but when you lifted the bloody sheets and then she'd never seen anything like it, and then on the Monday morning, I stayed with him Sunday night and he were on morphine fusions and then on the Monday morning I woke up and mum had gone, when I looked at dad I thought to myself then I thought oh boy you ain't gonna go now mum nipped home for a bath they said she could and it'll be alright and they said and er, that was at eight o'clock and er, then they all came back at about quarter past eight and er they sat us down and said daddy died at twenty to nine In the morning? Mm but oh, they've you can't do with it can you Joy? No I mean it ain't on is it? I know they're short staffed When you need people but by Christ when you need people, well it, there's, there's been a programme on this morning there saying it's not that there, this is vote for your, for your parliament you know, what you call it? Your vote to phone in and they said erm something about what was I gonna say no what was I gonna say? Oh no they were saying that the Health Service's and the Health Service is deteriorating so bad, and they said no not so much that it's that they're not, they've got enough staff but they're not being managed correctly Mm they're, they're hovering around That's right it's like there's no big don't know what to do it's like, I mean, I mean when I used to work in a hospital you weren't allowed to have hair down and hole in the tights, they're a load of toffee cows No, I know, not one of them doctors or an anaesthetist that come to dad had anything on, suit, trousers, jumper, floppy t-shirt, sweat shirt, no overall, no gloves nothing no, no I mean even us we we're going in and out intensive care having a fag, having a cup of coffee, walking in, we're full of germs I mean at one time you used to have to have gloves you know, didn't you? You know, dad got a chest infection Yeah, sterilized gloves see, the chest infection Well you weren't surprised are you? You see, I, I mean my brother But I mean the intensive care girls Joy I can't say enough about them, they were wonderful Yeah, it's no good saying it's no good fifty percent of the ship being good that's what I said they thrown him out into a mad house you can't sink half a ship can you? I mean they only threw him out because they just didn't, have the, the, the staff, I mean I sat in there day after day and I felt bloody sorry, they were ringing, ninety percent of their day taken by ringing, begging for staff Mm please, please could someone help just for an hour, we need help, we're too sh Mm they were four, I mean there's only four beds but one day they had four in there but there was a need for urgency it makes you feel , it makes you feel when you're unemploy , ployed like they are Yes, that's what I said what are we waiting, but you see where are all these qualifications yeah but you see, you, you, you can't you know do anything no cos if you go to do anything voluntary they look, look into it and then you've got trouble with your dole money I know, that's it, yeah then you can't afford to not have your dole money, cos your dole money The more I was up there, the more I thought cor I could take my coat off put on an overall, live up here forever That's right I know you know helping people, there was so many things you and I could do I know and it was stupid things like Well that, that's why I think I went down so hard when I didn't get that job cos she said, I, I took, I took the erm, I went, I was the first, to go, first of all I didn't put in for this job it's one that's been laying around since last September, I wrote to, kept to St. Mary's for this mental health thing and I got in touch with this Mrs and she said I've got nothing I can offer you at the moment but I, I will be in touch and I went down the job centre one day and erm, there was this thing to say that they wanted mental nurses Mm at the hospital, so I thought well I'll, I'll ring Mm anyway the girl said well I'll ring first to see where you get your application form she, and the, Sue phoned and was on the other end and I said oh you should apparently you've got have erm, er, application form and Mrs going to send you one, I said is that Mrs on the line she said is that Mrs speaking, she said yeah, I said will you tell it's Mrs she said oh, well, tell Mrs she's no need to apply I've got all her details and she is being looked at, you know, we are looking into it anyway erm, as I say I had this letter just after Christmas to say that there was a job coming up at the Mencap at Wellingborough Road, Rushden, and I was being selected and erm would I go up for the informal interview on the Monday and the formal interview at the hospital the next morning, so I went up got the first person there and er she, she, it's a new, it's an old house but they've done it all up and there all papers on the floor and then she said oh I think I'll pick these up Ir Irene, I said oh call me Joy everybody does and she said alright, OK, I said oh I'll help you so of course I said, I went straight down with her on the floor picking all these papers up and she, and when the next person come she said poor old Joy ain't even got in the door and that's it, she's already working and she said I can see you're like me Joy you'll do a job when you see it's gotta be done, I said I've always been the same, I can't, I can't see a spoon or a bit of paper laying on the floor No I have to pick it up, she said oh that's good, as I say I had a brilliant interview when the other members of staff come Steve and erm, I forget what the girl's name was, but she's already had a from her, training that er Princess Marina, and said oh this is Joy and this is Jenny and er, she's done well and when I came away Jenny went just in front of me into Sue who works for me Sue she's, she's the, the area, the area manager Mm and she said has come in? I really feel she said, I hope that we can sort something out, but the next morning of course I was first on the list I had my formal interview, mine was half past nine, but when I got in there Sue, and Steve which was gonna be the head manager and this girl from erm Princess Marina who was gonna be the nurse Mm who would administer all the drugs etc, erm, they come in and they said right just take a sit Joy and you know make yourself comfortable, I said oh fine and I sat, sat in the chair said well I'll sit with these for me dining room and I'll have four for me bedroom and do you want me to sit here then? She said yes, cos they sat like one, two, three and I said hang on where's the plug, what time do you plug it in, you know , Yes a mate of mine said dead right, she said now, were not used to doing this she said so if you feel you haven't had a fair crack at the whip Mm on your interview she said I want you tell us because at the end of the, your interview she said, it'll help us to do the others, so they told us, giving me different situations, she's took a patient out to a cafe and the patient pinched a cake and eaten it, what would you do? So I said well I've never been in the situation but I said if it, if it was, if I was in that situation I, asked to see the manager or person in charge, make an offer to pay for any damage that was done and if that didn't suffice then I would say well I am the care officer for a Mencap home and the only thing I can do is say will you er get in touch with my boss and it'll have to be sorted out from Head Office and she said perfect, you couldn't do anything better, then she give me all different things that we've gone into the next day and the patient's done everything down the bed, what would you do? Mm So I told them what I would do, but once again I've never been in the situation but this is what I'll do, said as if they were me own parents make them as comfortable as I could while I'll cleaned up and give them a bed bath or if they could shower, shower them and erm and get everything back to normal as quick as possible, fine, that were all fine she, and then as, as I got up from it they all said thanks a lot Joy it has been great you really have been great you've made it easy, we've got an easy day in front thanks to you, you know you're bubbly and all this and then when she phoned me on the Sunday she said hello Joy it's Sue here and I, I said will you let me know one way or the another cos I said I hate being left up in the air Yeah, that's right she said oh yes you will, then she said to me I'm sorry to tell you you didn't make, she said you made exc , but she said I don't want you to feel erm disgruntled she said because er, you done a fabulous interview, the only thing that let you down was of lack of experience, so I said well you're never gonna get any cos you, nobody let's you in, they don't open the door That's right I said I've been waiting six months now, I've given my life six months to wait for a job, I said, you can't get experience if you're not given chances No so I said but I'm not disappointed but she said just listen to what I've got to say, she said, erm, because anybody else that's failed we've just said I'm sorry we can't have you, but she said with you, we all feel that you've got so much to offer she said I'm gonna offer you a relief post which means that you can go into other people's ho er other homes, all around, all different hospitals if somebody's short, they can call on you and I said could it be a full time job, will it give me enough money to say that I'm working? She said I can't promise you, so I thought well I'm sat six months now, so I phoned this ship thing yesterday on the telly called Just Start, no Start Again whatever it's called and they gave me, they phoned me yesterday and they gave me a number of Cine Hill, Northampton which is the job advisory centre, adults education and then they phoned me yesterday and they told me who to get in touch with so I've got an appointment Thursday at erm Northampton with the Social Services Department and they apparently map out all the places where you could go, say, say for instance that St Crispin's is the mental home I can go there and be with the patients and then I can go to the Marina's and be taught how to lift and how to bed bath and how to manipulate Soon knowing, it's only a fashion like sick people the Y T S training scheme yeah That's right , and she, she retired Friday so she said I must get you in before Friday cos I'm going round Thursday morning Oh isn't there courses at Tech in the evenings or, or nothing? Well that's what she's gonna tell me so I don't know how you'll suppose to learn to get an interview well I thought well if it checks me another six months at least when they say have you got any experience, but as I say I'm still in touch with Mencap and I'm still in touch with mine and I've also er put in for, what they call them mobility insistence for the Princess Marina which again an education and you just go in and be, be a friend to somebody and you take them out for an hour, er a couple of hours, you, and you're paid five pounds eighty for a two hour session Yeah whether it's the afternoon or an evening or weekend it's still the same price, but the, the mental patient actually employs you, you're not employed by the hospital, but they can only give you ten hours a week which is five session so that's only sort of twenty seven quid a week so you're yeah I didn't really want to go with I, I, you see, I don't really wanna do Mencap, I didn't no I, I didn't want mentally handicap I wanted mentally sick like schizophrenic very interesting alcoholic they abilitating teaching them to, to live again and, and getting into the community, helping them to shop and you know helping them to be self sufficient. When I was at Tesco's near where we work, we worked, when we were at Hodins, you know that Tesco's there? Yeah That day when I went up to my Yeah the first time I noticed there were no end of women like yourself with no end of That's right you know in wheelchairs, or just walk Yeah and they were obviously quite poorly people in the way of their, their mental state Mm and er I thought of you then, and I thought where could they all come from, really are where do you come from because Mm six or seven times when I walked down Tesco on a lunch time on my own, they're always at the end one, so I suppose they could get in and out, but they're lovely kids some of them Mm I mean, they're not kids all of them They go to a bowling alley as well they do Yeah and they went and I notice when we went, we went to see Chas and Dave er at the Derndan it was packed with them Mm and as soon as you've parked, they've obviously come from a home somewhere or from the hospital or whatever Oh they come from, they go you see, I mean what they do is soon as they've kicked them out in the mental homes they're having to put them in to erm, I mean erm, there are people who are not able to be on their own, I mean the ones they've kicked out are people that have been depressed and say well you've got to find, get your family to help, I mean, when you've got somebody depressed in your family you try and help them That's right, yeah with their help and medication, I mean you don't sling them out on the street No I mean I don't, I don't know whether say they flung them out on the street is the right thing, cos I, I, I mean there's all these places like Mencap and there's a big one in Wellingborough Yeah and MindBlank which is mentally erm Yeah insane but there is a lot I mean, but how do you get in? That's right, yeah, I mean, it's alright them saying you want experience but how do you get it if you know you can't learn That's right , so I'm hoping Thursday it's an advisory erm session and they tell you what you should do, what you, how to get there, you know Yeah, because I mean, like when I had the home erm, that again obviously you can't, people said that, I mean, it's changed a lot but when I had the home you didn't just pull an , out anybody from the street and call them care assistants you had to offer them a day's training every week Mm at the Tech or courses, induction courses, Social Services meetings and stuff like that, but I mean there ain't none of this now they're just, you just, I, I can just apply for the job of care officer, care assistant and, and go in, but it's a pity that they don't do the same sort of thing like people can come in, have a look round see what goes on, be offered a, a day release Mm so like perhaps, say six weeks you're doing it on the voluntary basis Mm where you're just watching, helping, washing a few cups with somebody and, and then going on a course one or two days a week, and then you're consider whether being took on and even if you're not took on at that place at least you've got something to say you've done when you're Apart from that applying for another placement yeah apart from that you've got to know whether it's what you want to do That's right, oh yeah, because I mean I mean, I mean I know I don't really want to work with old age pensioners, but I start in a No, it's depressing no I don't think I wanna just sit and wash somebody sitting in a chair Very, I would say it's not depressing that's the wrong word, there's no there's a sense of, of reward and achievement, but, there ain't no thanks in it, no gratitude about it No do you know what I mean? I mean I've just, but all the years that I was at the home every day I would say hello Flo, hello Elsie how are you? Ooh, ooh this hurts and that hurts, never have, well how are you me duck Yeah do you know what I mean? You'd expect about ta, thanks you used to think cor christ and then I, I mean all the bits I did for them and I remember one woman getting up saying come on Flo come and stretch and she said who are you? And I'd been there four year, really, wipe shit from her arse every morning Yeah, yeah didn't know who I am that's right and that can be a bit soul destroying Yeah You, you really want something that, with the younger people you can build up a proper relationship You can get rapport with them, yeah yeah and an understanding and a bond That's right whereas with old people you can't, cos they're so cantankerous anyway Yeah but, well I say I'm just, I'm just trying keep trying , don't give up Yeah Yeah, cos at least you know I mean he what you wanna do, which is something you didn't when you were at no, no did you? You didn't really know what path to take or what you wanted to be Well I'm virtually unemployable, let's face it I mean Well it's like Callum, come out of his job, he knows nothing, he's a great butcher, never get another butcher like him, but that's all he knows Mm If he don't, if he comes out and decides to do something else he's well and truly Well that's right gazumped, because nobody will take him, cos he knows absolutely nothing, about nothing else apart from butchery, it's the same with me I can't work a computer so I'm cramped in the way of clerical, it's no good applying for half of them because you've got to have keyboard skills and erm computer skills But you see that's what you should do now you should get in and do it while you're unemployed. But you see, you get a lot of these courses and, I went in for reflexology, I went on a lovely Come here. a lovely course for re reflexology and one day, I went to Shambrook College and he said to me you've got, you've got a great feeling with your hands he said, you, you, you'd make a good reflexology, but the courses were in Luton Yeah and when you're unemployed you can't afford to go thirty miles You can't afford it, course you can't twice a week, I, for nothing that's what I said to mum, you know, that's why I so wanted to pass me, me test, cos I said to mum erm, see I kept it, I only had six hundred quid redundancy, six hundred and twenty eight pounds, that's all I had, apart, I had me wages what was owed and me holiday pay, but my, me actual redundancy cheque was only six hundred and twenty eight quid Yeah, I only got six hundred so I've put that away, I, it ain't even in my account, Alan's got that and I said to Alan if I pass this test I shall buy a banger, five hundred quid with this tax money and then put the odd to insurance, if I don't I'll leave it where it is, because I, I mean little one will want a holiday and that anyway so I've kept it for that, but that's what I intend to do, so I said to Alan if I get a little banger just enough to get me to Tettering and back I was gonna go tech, to do some courses Mm see I can't afford the train for every bloody day Yeah I know it's one pound ten one way then you oh but you see there, that I was saying to Penny Do you want a cup of tea Joy? make sure I see her this week, so she said oh she said Penny is a good girl she said er there was Penny and Margaret working at G P P and she said they were both doing test but she said come the end of day they only wanted one she said and for that, so she said Penny stood back and let Margaret stay to keep her job But that's alright innit, you're just trying to get comfy. They're old as the hills them cushions, in fact they're Do you want tea or coffee Joy? I don't mind whichever one you're making Mug or a cup? Mug please. What sugar? One and a bit. OK Yeah go on then, that'll do yeah now this is the famous budgie is it? Pardon? That's your famous budgie? That's George, famous George Georgey , Georgey He's been Is he? Yeah getting old Is he pulling his feathers then? Hello, what you doing down there? I haven't got no cream biscuits for you have I? Ah He'll have a sweet one then if you've got a sweet one I haven't Joy. Ain't you? Oh yeah Yeah Is there a butchers in Findham? Yeah oh good Colin ain't there now though is he? Yeah yeah he's gone in in Oh I thought he was still at Wellingborough he's here now. Oh and goes really well oh, very nice oh Dennis he's ever so I'll tell you one thing I, I take the top off He's ever so finicky Lyn alright, have your water Is that strong enough for you or is it too weak? No it's lovely He's got turkey salad and he didn't even eat it so I took the, the top off it so he could see the turkey in it, then he changed his mind now, I thought he might. What's he got? Are you warm enough? Yeah Sure? Yeah, a turkey sandwich, oh he's cheeky Not on the settee No it's alright You spoil him, what you got? The trouble is he does it everybody's house What you got? Aren't you sure about that? He's ever so finicky to feed but don't worry about your driving you haven't lost it No, it takes a bit of time doesn't it? Well when you could do with it most Yeah, with all, with all the running around at the hospital and all that, and now, and now Alright now? and as you say if you go to college, but as I've said to Penny you know you want to try and find out if there are any courses that are going, if you want to get back Yeah, that's what I thought into office work you feel you like, want to go back into it? I'm sure I know Oh, I tell you what it got on my wick the bitchiness of it all, didn't you, I couldn't, I couldn't do with it Joy I don't think everybody I want to do that again everybody said that what a I couldn't do with it now Do you know the reason, the reason Maud phoned to told me it was the most hateful place Oh Tim the, the life insurance, you know the man who still do the pensions on? Oh yeah He said Joy it was a wicked It needn't have been need it? Well it, you know what I call it, seeping sewage, I said Tell me off They usually say that the things called rising damp I said this that was seeping sewage from the top I think Geraldine remembers a lot of it I really do They all do, wanna hear what Barbara's got to say here ain't she? Fine, yeah, she come over my house last Wednesday night, we go to the Beaker's bingo just won't let you I know, he might have been a bit better, she, he had a fight, he had some Whiskers for his dinner last night, I tell him he ain't Geoff cooked him a pheasant Oh yeah Yeah I've got a great big rabbit in the freezer. He's ever so spoilt that's the trouble He don't want the crust, he don't want the crust No he don't like nothing hard, he loves chee , he likes cheese and things like that yeah he'll, he'll eat it, he's following you No I'm alright You sure? Yeah Lyn Yeah Reggie don't you think I'm fat enough? Chinese porcelain, I wouldn't dare, right, so I had the insurance man come up, come about my pension, he sat where you are and I sat there, he was a well to do man he's ever so posh, and we're chatting away telling me all about pension, telling me all about the pension and that you see so I said to him would you like a tea? Oh I should love one, ooh, so I thought, best not give him a bleeding mug I'd best get my best china out, you know? Well we're just standing drinking this, sitting drinking this cup of tea then I'm calling he said ah, ooh he said yes he said I've heard a lot about it he said, there's a lot of unhappy people, I said bloody place I'm bloody glad I'm out of there, I wouldn't go back in a million years, of course he's sitting there with this chinese cup in his hand, drinking this tea and I've sat here bold as brass picked up me cup and walked out well it went all in me lap Ooh, and I ooh, and I thought, of course look back on curse on you, you know oh dear I did it all on me own, of course Alan sat here like a bloody idiot, I said you sit there don't get, he said I thought you were getting a cloth, I burnt all me arm trying to, jumping out, hacking me hair out there so I had to say to this bloke I said well there's erm justice for you, he said what? Because that cup you're drinking out of comes from shut up, because Alan said he said oh it could have been worse girl, it could have been his bleeding handle that'll come off and do you know I've got two left out of six, every handle's come off, cracked Mm you've done a good job there if you don't lose it again What? It's lovely turkey that, it's lovely and fresh What is it a fresh turkey? Mm I, I don't like frozen, I don't cook frozen lovely Reggie loves it as I say my nephew bought me two Get bored with sandwiches So I cook one the other day, and I cook one this morning, I've pressure cooked one for him, but he wouldn't look at it Reg is definitely Do you know what he likes? He like lamb, but he likes all the rubbish, he likes, you know the best end of the, what you stew? Oh yeah, yeah, He likes all the rubbish, all the fat and all the gristle and the bones, but he won't eat that lovely bit of meat in the middle Really? and, and neck of lamb he'll eat all the rubbish, but he won't eat the meat You get it in the stew you can't find it he's only been on your fur for christ sake Oh he's forever, oh gordon bennett it's like Is that a new engagement ring? Didn't you see it? I had that for Christmas No It ain't suppose to be an engagement ring, it's never called an engagement ring is it? Bought it It's only out of Argos Yeah yeah Ha, got one Why ain't it worth? It's quite good, about sixty nine I think, Oh ain't that lovely It is a nice ring ain't it Joy? Oh yeah Me sister's got one the same and I said cor I like your ring I'll never afford that and she said it's only Argos sixty nine bleeding quid, I thought it's fine. That's lovely Mm it's nice Been a bit battered, I used to take it off, it wants us, it wants cleaning You know what you want to do, put it Soak it put it in a saucepan with some Fairy Liquid and bring it to the boil and let it boil for about six minutes Really? Yeah, it'll clear all that Ooh it sparkled when I first got it ooh I wouldn't put it on for washing up but I forget now The only thing you can't do is soft those , we can do diamonds, erm, the only thing you can't do is pearls Oh really? yeah, but any hard stone and you'll never melt the gold cos you'll never get it hot enough, I always just chuck mine all in and erm Cake's quite nice It's lovely, it really is Have some more , ooh I'm trying to lose weight You look anorexic to me Do I? I've put on over a stone No you look, you look better now for the first time in my life I weigh nearly nine stone a month ago, until me dad had died and then I, I lost three quarters of a stone Wendy's gone down from twelve and a half stone to about eight Yeah, so how she doing not good? She's had a lot of ups and downs, Christmas, New Year's Eve night Rudy and I went to a party, Pam's daughter's party, it's her eighteenth and at quarter to twelve when they started getting ready to ring the chimes in, at midnight Wendy said I can't stay Joy I'm gonna have to go I said oh alright then, I said I see you alright, are you alright? She said yeah I'll be alright, but I could see she'd been crying earlier on in the evening, she said you always feel as if you're That's horrible isn't it? erm on your own don't you? Well anyway Wen, Wen was in bed with flu, he was with mum so when we went up to pick him up about ooh twenty past twelve I said to and Rudy, I said to Rudy I'm, I'm worried about Wendy, he said are you? This is New Year's Eve? Yeah, I said yeah I am, I said I'm gonna drive up and see, so we got in, went up to Wendy's, you couldn't see through the door Pen, Penny and Kev said well we'll drive round as well, I said well she's had us up and down, cos one minute she was quite strong then the next she couldn't cope, I said Wendy all I want you to ever know is that I'm there, if ever you want me phone me, I don't care whether it's middle of the night, middle of the morning or whatever, so she says alright, anyway Penny went up, she said she couldn't see anything she thinks she's gone a bed and then me and Rudy went up, it must have been quarter to one cos I took him for a little walk and I got out the car and walked round the back and then, I could see her curtains were open and I could see a light on, so I went round the front and I shouted through the letter box, Wen it's only me I've come to wish you a happy new year, let's hope next year will be better than this one and she come to the door and she was broken hearted Ah so I said to her come on I said come on you'll gotta start trying to be strong, I know it's a nasty night being celebration night when everybody else looks as if they're enjoying Yeah Anyway when I went in the phone was on the hook, and I said who was on the phone? She said the Samaritans she said Joy I were gonna commit suicide, and she said I thought well I'll just talk to the Samaritans and she said that's where I were, I said you won't commit suicide will you? She said I can't cope no more, she said I just cannot cope any longer and I said you mustn't feel like that I said you'll break all our hearts, I said it's, life will never be the same again, I said come on home with me, forget about this day, I said tomorrow we'll come and pick your birds up cos she's got two beautiful parrots, she's got a Mulican white with peach Oh and then she's got one of them blue erm ones, what'll you call them? Macaws Really? and they're worth about three grand so anyway erm, I said I'll pick your birds up tomorrow and, cos I when you come and stay with me, she, anyway she, she wouldn't, well in the end I just said that's it I've had enough I switched the car off and grabbed hold of her I said, frogmarched her in the car I said come on, I'm going to bed, Rudy's ready for bed I said I want you with me, so that I can keep me eye on you if I have to sit up all bloody night, of course when she was with me I picked her up and got her strong again and I say you have to be worth it, you're better off without him then she come round and then she'd say I know I am I just go down but well anyway she say, the next morning I said to her do you wanna go home and get some clothes and come back here? She said no I think I'll go home I'll be alright, so I took her back home about eleven and erm erm I kept phoning her every hour on the hour just to make sure she's alright, then I said I want you just to promise me one thing you're not do anything silly, I'm here, I don't care what it takes, I'm here, so she said alright then, so I said it'll break mum's heart it'll break dad's heart, No, only to leave behind you see innit? Yeah I said you've got your kids, you've got a grandchild, of course her grandchild was born that night in the middle of the night, no, in the, four o'clock in the morning New Year's Day that's what I said, so that come like a prayer from heaven it did Yeah but I mean you, there are times when you feel weak and that I mean But you see Penny can't Penny can't accept that she'll say no they never been in it, in there That's right and I say until you've been there I have, and I you know, there's been many a day I've thought cor I'm really glad I'm in, I'm really glad that I didn't give, giving up day and there's been days when I thought christ how the hell did you get through that day Mm it seems like now to tell you at last I've come to terms with it now, I've really Yeah feel like I've accepted it, I've come to terms with it, there's nothing I can do about it fair to your control and once you get to that's right your control you've, its nothing you can do but it took five years I know I mean that, I was telling my mate Cheryl they come to the funeral, he ain't fucking shown Who's that? Tony, he's got a great big large Porsche Who's Tony? My ex-husband he Who's funeral your dad's? My dad's He never yeah and her and Diane Whatever for He come up the hospital, I was up in intensive care unit and me dad came round about half past ten at night and in he walked, he came straight down from Filey to see him, cos he used to think a lot of dad you see and dad did him years ago, he used to say he was more of a son than me own but then he brought her to the funeral, they wouldn't speak to me, wouldn't entertain me at all, I nearly fainted when I saw little one, she's tall and thin Are they spoilt? Oh, everyone knows them kiss, kiss, kiss, kiss, kiss, kiss, Diane on her lap, on her lap cuddling, mm my lovely then mum said aren't you gonna say hello to mummy and give her a kiss, so she went ugh, and every time we asked her anything she kept going what have you lost? Lost something put it down this morning bury something for later, just in case you don't get nothing for supper I'll have to go backwards. Excuse me, young man well you ain't sharp like your mother are you Reggie? I'm sure, I'm sure that settee You should have left it there Dominic would eat it, he'll find it, he'll say who's been down here and had a sandwich you haven't had one don't want it, he's playing. I know he's naughty, come and watch it, who's that? Who's this? Look what he does at my It's turned dull innit? It was lovely this morning Yeah, I weren't gonna put myself out for them then he got up and stormed out and then he went back to his sister's took his out and never said ta ta to anyone, I mean I ran over and I said to mum he's got a funny on, what do you think? So I said I know what he's like, comes back and he turns up he says we're just off now, I said oh you've come back then I thought you were a bit rude just storming out of the funeral and not saying cheerio to everyone, he said I've been insulted long enough by your family, I wouldn't be, I wasn't prepared to be insulted any more Ooh Bloody shark, he ought to grow up pathetic so we all had a laugh about it when we went off, I said come on who's the culprit who upset god above from Yorkshire? Sammy said must have been me he said all I said to him here are Ton here's a mug of tea, mug for a mug I said that'll be it, that's all he'll take bloody stupid innit? It's a good job that, he didn't take that mug that I've got, I'm a mug for a reason Yeah, well weren't it daft, I thought that was clever Yeah I have more pleasure out of my little dog than I have anything. I think you do, yeah I love him Have you seen that advert on the telly I love it with George the boxer? Yeah Oh ain't he handsome, when she cook's the curry Yeah it's our Graham's, I think it's brilliant Yeah could eat him, I went down me mate's Saturday, cos I come home and I sort of was coming towards the end of the week and just did a farewell dinner for dad on the Sunday and we all went to mum's show them the garden, by Saturday night I felt shattered for it and I'd come home and I looked in the cupboard and I said Ton well what do you want for your dinner then? He said nothing, he said you ain't gotta cook Jeanie and Rob have invited us down, he's and she's doing you a spaghetti bolognaise, so I said oh that'll be nice, when we got there, shall we go in the bank for an hour, I didn't feel like going out, he said come on it'll do you good, we went in the bank and I won a house on the bingo, you could of cracked me Julie said if we win we'll go halfs I said right you are so we said right that was fine, there was four of the bleeding winners one pound fifty I ended up with It ain't enough for a bloody round, I said that was about right but it was a bit of fun you know Yeah while we were out and er Oh I love me bingo and we, we were ever so disappointed with the service at the, at the Crown ever so disappointed At the Crown, why? Mm , cos mum had Reverend come round, you see cos dad weren't, none of us were religious least of all dad, he couldn't do none of it, so we said to, we didn't, we didn't know what vicar to choose cos none of us go to church so me mum said dad used to go to the church where me sister got married to the little Derby and Jones twice a week and Reverend is always there so mum said we'll have him, dad got on well with him, he liked him, he knew dad, anyway he come round to see mum and I weren't there cos I had to go and sign on, I bloody wished I had been, anyway she said, she told him all about dad and she said I want you tell everybody how brave he was in the war and what a good father he were and a good provider and how he lived for his grandchildren and so on and so on, she said I don't want no hymns I just want his own organ music all through the service and nothing else and just some, do a couple of prayers, she, so he said right the Lords Prayer will be fine that'll be nice, well he never said nothing, he said I didn't know John but he said I've been told he was a good man, he worked in a hospital, which he did, but I mean you're only like an engineer we weren't really emphasising on that and that was all he said, he played a bit of the organ music before we went in, a bit as we come out and there was about eight bloody prayers and the songs and everything read out and made us sing a hymn ever so disappointed, hardly said anything, hardly play, played his music, no, I was well disappointed about that Oh no folks don't do what you ask nowadays, do they? No they do not Oh I don't know I get disillusioned Did you get a bed? What were you after a single bed or a double bed? Got it Did you? I got a brand, almost brand new one What double? Divan with four drawers, headboard, like this headboard Mm only it's a bit more rosier than this is like in it, the other one's, my one's rosy and erm, and a nice mattress, hardly used mattress, twenty five quid the lot, I'm well pleased with it, I've just had a lovely weekend, I've had Val and her husband over from Jersey Oh yeah who's been to Southampton erm to have this new, er what do you call it? Erm erm scanner, magnetic scanner Oh yeah , yeah that one there that's advertised on telly, that looks all round the Yeah the spine Yeah and then it can take everything down into millimetres and whatever it is, and see exactly where the damage is Oh and erm, she phoned me the night before last for the results come through Oh what a shame but she sold her house in Jersey, her husband retires in July, the school break, and erm and she said I've got some good, er when I got home from wherever I'd been, Rudy left me a note to say phone Val good news and I thought it were her back was good news, but she said no me medical problems were not good news, they daren't operate cos me back's in such a state and they haven't give her much hope for anything apart from a wheelchair sort of thing, later on in life and erm, but she said that I've got a bit of good news I've sold me house so I said ooh lovely, so she said I don't know any more but I ring you and let you know, the next night she phoned me back, she said yeah me house has gone they got two hundred and twenty thousand for it , they wanted them out a week on Thursday Oh my god She's going Yeah said she phoned me the night before last and she said she's been looking at flats I thought I'd just ring you to tell you we've been looking at flats and they range from two hundred and fifty to four hundred and eighty pounds a week for a flat A joke So I said what you gonna do? I said you'd be better off to book into a guest house Mm and I, but you see John's ever such a funny eater, he's erm Mm erm, don't eat meat, what you call vegetarian Vegetarian , yeah He'll eat fish, but he won't eat meat and erm, so probably likes a he likes to do his own thing, I said well you ought to book in a hotel and Yeah bed and breakfast rather than have to pay out all that That's right so erm, you know, you know my millionaire friends from Jersey that I used to talk Yeah about, Tim and Pat Yeah well they've got a guest house where they rent, they let five of the rooms off in the summer to such millionaires Oh yeah and they just do bed and breakfast and I said I'm sure cos she knows Pat, she knows Val through me Mm so I said if you go up and see Pat I said I'm sure Pat will say well you know why don't you use the kitchen and come and live in Yeah, yeah I mean if you're gonna pay them you might as well pay Val Might as well, yeah that's right pay Pat and, and, and share her home Mm at least you'll live in the land of luxury, so she said I might just do that, so, well I'm not getting involved, let them sort it out That's right So erm I think John's gotta retire he suffers from these dreadful headaches now, they cri , they're killing him Shame the pain is so intense Everybody's so poorly ain't they? I think a lot of it's just a whole, everywhere is discontent at the moment, I dunno Very poorly I don't know whether it's that we want much, too much I don't know what it is but we're not it seems to have changed over the last few years but I tell you what Val's put me back on my feet Did she? ooh, when I told her how I'd been treated Yeah she said you let them treat you like that, Yeah I couldn't believe it, she says I'm, well at the bingo the other night she She never even said to ask me I said to I know she were, she were brick shit she were, I said to Lyn I said I'm bloody sure, I could have actually, she, she were nearly eating out of my arm, in them last few weeks, I'll tell you, ooh the encouragement I got about the driving ooh I can't do it Lyn and when I comes in that day the first test I had she'd made a great big fucking cake I said you can put that away I've failed Didn't you? No, No never liked her, she knew it and all, and that last day I walked out I said bye, bye Debbie, she said, she went, she got in, in the car quick and I wound her up so that she weren't too sure, do you know what I mean? I wouldn't have I'm glad that's the only thing I'm thankful for they said oh we've done being out of there, well I never they said oh hope we don't have a reunion Yeah I'm bleeding sure I'm sure that Yeah all the girls will want all to get together I said no No I don't want to know, I said I don't want to know Nor do I So she said that was the laugh with David he said erm, he said about that and that cos when he had this, they had this big farewell thing didn't they at the bowling alley and I never went and I was the only one and erm they come round, they come round and I thought yeah I really Is that the one Pam went to? Yeah, they come round and they were all on about it and er, erm and that was it, Darren called us all into the canteen, well I, I mean Pam must have told you that I was, I couldn't get over it and he said thanks for all you've done, all your support and I thought yeah yeah, well they called us in the canteen and they said everybody there's a meeting, so I thought oh christ cos it was just a standard joke me and Elaine, cos the last meeting they had, I were at the leisure shop then and they called the meeting to tell us it was the end and it was closing, and me and Elaine sneaked down the hall and we were going like this you see, so, after that shop it came over the tannoy me and Elaine staying open, I ain't going, I can't handle it I said I just wanna get out, it was really like a sentence I just couldn't stand it of course I laughed, me and Elaine went to the meeting same place, same wall and I kept looking at her and we brought you in here to say thanks, and Elaine looked at me and I looked at her and I said well if that's all he's gotta say I said I'm not, I, what did I say to Elaine? I said don't hold your breath Elaine but if it's what I think's in that carrier bag over there it ain't a voucher, cos they all were saying What were it? I wonder if we've got twenty five pound voucher there would be some oh greed at the front you know, and there was a, all of us attended this meeting and that's every single person in the building and I bet there was fifteen maximum twenty, that was all that was left in the whole building Is that the day Jane asked them about the pension, how much there'd No, that was pension no that was another day, and then he said and there's just a small token of thanks, so I said small it's fucking minu minute and for twenty of us there was two half pound boxes of Dairy Box I said are you sure you can afford it? He said he climbed up squabbling, seven Debbie had in her hand you never seen nothing like it Joy I couldn't, oh it made me really ill Cor I don't know all about it Really make a bundle of laugh I just, I tell you what , I, I know it sounds nasty, but I am glad that Penny is some way has had something that has made her realised what that place was all about. Yeah, cos you couldn't see it No No I know, I know she couldn't she never, never could , and I said what I tried to tell you all Mm I knew, that day when I said to her I always remember on one occasion I knew I remember as clear as day, standing talking to Penny and I was calling their plumber, I'll always remember that and er I was quite took back and Penny said ooh she's been very good to me Yeah and I thought oh Penny if only you knew Yeah she ain't mate, she might be on the outside but she really ain't, cos Penny's such a lovely girl and I thought, and I thought, I've seen Penny butter up Penny who? You think you see, my mate Penny to her and I've seen her laugh but you see Penny's got no compassion, although she's me sister Mm she's got no compassion for nobody else, as long as Penny's alright, Penny's alright and, I mean, I don't, I don't say, say your own, to be Say what's in your mind, I like people like that Mm, mm but I don't, I didn't like this if people didn't like what I, there was other women That's right not straight to me at all That's right and there was only two people I felt comfortable, two and that was Barbara and June, that, that the two people I felt, one of them looked Yeah and when I said that to Penny she said well that's nice she said you've gotta lot of, a lot of friends at home, I said no, I haven't got friends You know I know people Yeah that put up with me, I know people that don't like me Mm and I know people that you suss it out do like me, I can tell you all about others from three weeks after I there, I was there I could have told you everything about it Suss it up Every one of them I told them all about peep hole I mean it's like when I walk in looked what he's done to them Yeah He wouldn't even give Pam a typewriter, he sold it under her nose I know, I know , because as I say they gave a and he said I know who I'd believe, I said who would you believe? She said well I know, cos when Elaine went to pick it up she said, Elaine told her I wouldn't want to make the choice out of two typewriters, I just said Pam didn't really care what she had as long as she had one Yeah I wanted one, it weren't even mentioned. and he said and, and, and Pam said when Elaine asked Keith he said if she can't come here and pick one up, she don't get one, I said and that is as much as Keith thought about any of you Oh yeah I said and you all used to look at him as if he was bloody king king when you're playing cards That's right take me for a prat of the first order That's right and I told you that from the minute he sat down and he started playing, I'm a card shark, nobody tells me what I know about bloody cards That's right and when he used to say things about cards, I said you can't do that, but because he were who he is we had to shut our mouth He thought he had to be right , yeah that's right but he weren't right No and I told him he wasn't That's right , that's exactly right I told him you don't pull the wool over my eyes, you might pull the rest, it over the rest, not this one, I said if you wanna play cards That's what happens with me, you play the rule, but when they came in and they said all this thank you, Keith, Daryl said to Keith I want a word now you know, and I stood there, I mean there weren't a lot, I didn't have no back-up, when everybody went No there weren't many that sort, that felt the way I did, I mean I hated him, I really did and when he turned round and he said ooh Keith wants a few words I said to Elaine, look shit's gonna be it, I'll tell him or anyone, and I meant it, so he started on about this night at the bowling club, but it was his actions Joy, I want to know who's coming, we need to know, I thought but why's he fucking boss me about on my private time, anyway to cut a long story short they booked all this night out and I watched and I waited I thought let them clock that I'm not going, so then comes a phone call, David was in the bottom office so was the letter shark, and this phone call came over and David shouted up to all of us on the machine who's going on Thursday night? Of course they're all putting their hands up by me see, and Da , I thought David would clock, and he never said a word, I thought he ain't sussed it, anyway they went on this night out and the girls kept saying, Debbie saying oh Lynn just come, I said I ain't got no intentions of coming, I said David's going amongst all the others I'm not going, so Debbie said why, I said why because David is nothing but a wanker, a lot, along, a lot of the others, she said, she nearly fell off the chair, gordon bennett she said I never thought you, I never realised you felt like that, I said Debbie if you knew half of what I thought you would fall off that chair Yeah and then the next day I was in that shop working away and on my life this was I said are you looking at me David, or is there a dog in here? Cos I wouldn't, the only reason I kept stoom was for my redundancy, it was only six hundred quid, but every ha'penny I want to get off them, do you know what I mean? He come hareing up, you know, he's a prat ain't he? He said where were you last night? I said put that finger down and I might tell you, I said don't point at me David I don't like being pointed at and Maureen nearly fell over, Maureen stood there, she nearly fell over Oh so he said I said I don't have to tell you where I were last night David, I were out, so I said even if I were in it's none of your concern I said what I do in my private time is up to me, he said well why wasn't you there? Oh did he? I said I pretend I'd never heard that question David, because if I answer it I said there's a lot more He knew what could be at stake yeah I know than my job then he said I presume you've got mixed feelings, I said no my feelings aren't mixed up at all, I'm quite, I'm quite sure of my feelings of what I know, I said David I wouldn't associate myself, I wouldn't drink and I wouldn't go out with anybody in this building and he nearly fell over and he said dare I ask why? I said don't ever dare cos I said you'll be here to midnight David and then on the day we were going he stopped me and Jane, little Jane, she was coming down the stairs behind me, I'd been up for a fax, and I don't know where she'd been, she was behind me and as she come down the stairs I was listening and he said got her hand ooh he said I am gonna miss you my dear, so she said yes I'll miss Hodems as well, he said you have got a way with your words haven't you, he said for one strange minute I thought you were gonna say you'll miss me too I said oh David you are naive I said you're more naive than what I thought cos he hates, he hates me and vice versa, and he said er, who asked your opinion? I said no bugger ever asked my opinion David but you can guarantee I'm always there to give it you see him, his face was like thunder But you see, that, that night Penny were called in Ah she were going it, she were going home, ten to six and they just, can we Oh I cried when Penny went I really did, I said you with a temper and that last day you know, we all got a bucket filled it up with ash trays, dog ends, bits of paper, oh I don't know what was in it What you do, stick it in the fountain? No, stuck it over David's head, he were on the phone to a client, we took a photo, somebody took a photo of it, we knocked on the door we said David have you got a minute? He said no I'm on the phone and then they took a photo and that, Geraldine was there and they tipped the whole fucking bucket on his head, he had dog ends in his hair, and everything and he went you, he didn't know what to say, and we said see you David all the best. Have you got your money then? Yeah no we haven't, no we haven't been paid yet, no that's, that's right we hate to got back with Cos Jenny, Jenny owes Barbara a lot of money you know. I saw her and I, I be honest with you I hid, I be totally honest and I'll tell her the same if I see her because I've just found out then that they couldn't do any more for me dad and I really didn't want to speak or see anybody and I sat in the canteen on my own, I just said to me mum, mum on the phone I said mum I need to do this on my own I said I'm just gonna have a coffee in the cafeteria and I don't know if you've been in there but the cafeteria is all glass and she pulled up in a white van delivering something to the office, I thought oh no it's Jenny she's the last bleeding person I want there, I don't mean that you know, and so I avoided her, but I would tell her, but if I saw her I would say Jenny I must admit I did see you going in The General but I didn't come out because I was so upset, but I, I wonder what she's doing, cos she, I heard she's got her own business, but I can't see that. I know but she owes a lot of people a lot of money Might have been cos she, you heard about all the union didn't you, what happened with the union down there? They split it between everybody The union money or your Yeah, you know, you know Which? we all come out of the union Who split the union money then? Well when you all went, as you all left, when the last lot of redundancies were made, I said I'm not paying no more union, Judith come over about the union meeting, I said I'm not going to the meeting Judith and I said I want to come out of the union I'm not paying any more, I said I can't afford ten pound a month for crap, well me and Jan had a big barney over it cos I never got on with her anyway and we had a big fucking row about it, she said the union this, the union that, I said where were the unions with my mates, they weren't in damn site, they were never there, we never saw one union representative from the day Audrey got done and we never ever saw erm till the last one got done, I said so don't you tell me about the union I said they did fuck all, they weren't even here, so I said I don't want to pay the union, and I said don't tell me what to do Jane, I said what I do with me money is up to me I said get me out the union and get me out now, and then they all started, they all wanted to come out of it then, oh Maureen I think I might but what would Debbie say, I said Maureen do you ask her for a shit? You not got a mind of your own, do what you want to do Well that's, that's the trouble you see they're all mindless aren't they? Well then they all come out , everybody, even Dave come out of the union and the only two that were left in it were Jane and Karen on our side and a couple from the warehouse and like there was Judith and I think Sonyou and a couple from the letter shop I, I, I don't know, I don't think Elaine went but I think the rest were, yes there were Pam and I think, I think Nigel were, but anyway when Judith comes up about what union money was left, I don't know where it was left from or how it's imposed, but they split the between everyone, they had thirteen quid each Did they? and a little master Jane she said that was good weren't it? I said you taking the piss out of them Jane or what? I said you ain't sharp I said you've got all your priorities wrong I said you stood there Jane with thirteen pound ain't you, in an envelope? She said yeah ain't it good? I said I think that's wonderful I said cos do you know how long I've been out the union now, three months, well I reckon I've saved thirty pounds, you've got thirteen quid back so you've really lost twenty odd quid Jane haven't you really? No, she could she couldn't, she ain't got the mentality to No, she with Lynnette hasn't she? Oh yeah yeah, no over that woman's feet, cos you know what she did, she rang up Lynnette, she got through to the wrong extension Debbie answered, she slammed the phone down, and Debbie knew it were her she went mad Who, knew it were who? Lynnette And Debbie Deb, Deb rang back on reception and said there's been a call, they got cut off, so she said oh that was Lynnette so Debbie said and put the phone down and she rung straight over onto Jan's extension and asked to speak to Maureen and Jan, so Debbie got a snip of it cos Judith refused, she said rude cow, she said she needn't have slammed the phone down she could have at least said hello so they had her dinner time said Jan was that Lynnette on the phone? So she said yes, she was cocky weren't she Jan? Yeah So she said I think that was damn rude she said she's just slammed the phone down on Deborah and there's really no need for that, well she said it's private between me and Debbie, then we found out she got her a job Yeah and she'd offered it to Maureen three months before and Maureen turned it down, and they went mad they said you little creep Jan, little bloody sneak Yeah, but they were all like that, they'd all stab you in the back. I tell you, you, the bitchiness in there when everybody went berserk was terrible, it made me laugh cos I never entertain none of them, I'd just used to sit there and laugh, I never spoke to David from the day everybody left. I know me and Jenny had a do erm, when I went on post cash, you know when Janet was there? Yeah Er, not Janet , Janet for Barbara's friend pretty Janet with the toner Oh yeah, yeah, yeah and also you know when Janet's doing a stint because you can see if Barbara's smokes well me and Jenny had a do that week and then you, it were my birthday on the Wednesday weren't it? Mm And we left on the Friday That's right and, and Jan, Jan I was on holiday weren't I? I was at Newcastle No I think you were there cos when I come back you'd all gone That's right, that's right Yeah cos there were only you and Marion weren't there and we knew somebody else would be kicked out . That's right, yeah, that's right I remember posting your card from Yarmouth I think it was. Well you know where Penny's old desk were, where she sat looking up towards the, and Jenny sat there and Joan sat there, this Janet was sitting there and on that Friday morning when the phone had rung, well I got up and I went to go upstairs to take something or a fax coming for me or something, and as I went past Lynnette hit me on my shoulder and she said it's me Pat, Pat she said it's me, oh Pat I said what's, what's going on? So of course I never thought no more, went upstairs and got me fax and on the way back Ann was coming downstairs, I said what's going on Ann? She said it's a big, big cut off, if your phone rings you're out, so of course the phone were ringing, then it went to one in post, no it never, it went first from Ann from Lynnette then to Ann and then it went to Kathy and then it went to erm somebody else and then it come to me but I've got seven hundred thousand pounds worth of money on my desk that I were banking and Jane had got that job and Jane was on post in cash cos she ain't got a job cos that thing with them shoes didn't take off and do you know Well I've never know anyone like that. Jenny said erm, this time it said I couldn't stand, when we all come out at twelve o'clock and the shock had hit us and we sort of said oh well we're better off out of it, I'll, I've survived twenty five years without, I shall survive again, and when Jan, and Janet was so sick and then I turn round and Janet says I'm with you girl, I said where you going? She said I just went in there and she said I couldn't stand any more, she said do you know Joy she said you're one of the nicest people I know, she said I tell you what I've never heard in my life two people stab somebody like you're being stabbed, she says I couldn't sit there any more That's right, that's right so she said I, I went in and I said to Geraldine I'm going I owe you any bloody money take the bugger out me wages, she says I ain't having people that I like being stabbed like that by people like that, she said she ain't worth the salt of the earth, she's the salt of the earth she said with people like that pointing to Jenny and Jane, no way, she said and I'm going with my mates, I turned round and the next thing Janet and Janet and Barbara in there, when we got up the pub at twelve o'clock, course we were all having sandwiches me and Pam got the, me and er Barb got there, then Pam come in then a few more come and erm then the plumber and all that come in with them and I said oh girls we never clocked out, so I said oh well I'm gonna have to take my key back to Steve , burst out laughing, so I said oh no I said why don't we have a key cracking competition so of course that's what we did we all took our keys out of our bag and we went ready for she's a jolly good ready, steady,fellow, for she's go and we cracked these ruddy keys and shoved them up in the air Oh Dave face, ee, it was evil, and she said Can imagine guess, her, her punchline, those keys are fifty pence each No She did, I'd never forget it as long as I live, I thought to myself well you stupid cow, all she could think of was a fifty pence key, so I, I said to them, I said to the girls I'm glad to be out but of course when they all went cos there was Lynda and all the girls from customer service that were kicked out and all of us that were there and they all said oh we've gotta go back to work and we said oh ain't that a shame you know, and we all went back to work and they all went Pat's gone to theatre has she, yeah? No, not I'm going in the ! Come on, Leo! Come! To you. Come and listen to this new car. Yeah, I've seen it before often. Yeah he looked good. Leo, come! Good boy! Come here! Come here! Is he supposed to go the opposite way? Come here ! Lie down! Down! Yeah. Lie down! Come on get down! Ge look look, look, get down! Leo, down! Down! Look that's it he's having a fit Joy ! Well that's erm . She's You stay! Stay! You put your your thing in the water look ! What? You dipped it in the water! Did I? Well that's the first wash it's had all week! Getting a bit of a hazard this place! Oh dear! Cor it's all bloody at it again! Well er so we don't know they're gonna get the trailer off this car. No, no I couldn't get them out the Right now leave it there so Couldn't see about Yeah you the weekend? I see him Saturday morning, when he comes to work at five o'clock yes. We got roast beef we got the most important Well, say you want it off him then, then and then Yeah. I'll call in and pick you Right. up Saturday sometime. Alright I'll come in I co , we're coming by here Saturday. Okay alright. Are you a stamp? Derek? And if you want any sharpening done erm sharpening service and some sharpening Who's doing that? Me! It's all part of my earning a living! Really? You still do that Stewart? Yeah, I've just thought I've go I've gotta call Val she said she were coming to shop. I thought you set that old dear up? I did, but I, I don't get everything up if it I'm not knocking on doors for it. No just ours! But I've got one in the do-it-yourself shop here you see, and I thought I might as well put one in Val's two shops. Yeah. Cos I call on them everyday, I can pick the tools up and deliver them the next day. Yeah. So she I'm serious, she gets Mm. paid properly! just I think only us two. I like them. Here, take a glass. No, I don't want a glass, I don't want any bitter. I've got sparkling What? water, if you like No, I don't want anything. Tip some away in there then. What for? There's plenty of lagers. Hey! N , oh there's no way I'm gonna drink a whole pint! there's a glass there. Cos there's a glass there look. I don't like it in a glass, it don't taste the same! Well I don't like to say but I left them outside and the dog pissed over them! Your dog peed on the bloody tin I don't care! that's why! You haven't got you have got to ! Not a problem! I know. Derek! Now come on you lot of get one in this box! I don't what they put on it! Get one in that box! That'll do me if we could ! Yeah that'll do me! dry. Don't work! God! I want a good card here. Here it is. Do they actually listen to it or do you edit it or do they actually No. have the original tape? No, all the lot. Oh I shall charge this! Right! Back. Fifteen for two Derek right on board mate. Eighteen. Ooh eighteen! Eighteen. Eighteen. Twenty five. Six and nine. That's a bit of luck! Mm. Yeah it was four! Four teen. Come on Derek! You're looking very Four smart tonight Derek! Twenty four! Aha! Twenty nine. Thirty. No. No? Mine's in the box Joy! Eight. Say it again. Twenty eight, two here we go. back, six. Fourteen. Ooh ooh ooh! Ooh! Ooh it's a bit of a long one, ha ! . Fifteen two, fifteen four two six. Er far too complicated for me! Go on then. Fifteen two, fifteen Twelve. four I'm sure I saw another one! Fifteen two, fifteen four, pair six, six is twelve? Is that it? Yep. And your ace is no good. Don't do nothing. You ain't got none. Tuppence. What do you want? Twelve on there, yes please. Twelve on there and then you'd better put my two on Hang on. and make them look very extra specially good! Eleven twelve, so that Be two no, do I get two from both of you? Yeah, two. Yeah. I thought Fifteen? No, two P each. oh. Two eights. And Derek. Er, I think I've got three. Fifteen two in his hat. Yeah. And his and his sp pack And his what? Fifteen two, fifteen four. That's your lot, there's no bloody more! Give you a flipping chance to even enjoy it, do they?! I ta I try and I try and rig a few wires up! Yeah. Gotta a penny . Derek and I kind of study them for we for hours don't we ? Well all men are the same, slow! Here we go! Slow? Good boy! Bloody hell! What a lot of old crap! Didn't want that one! Where do you get this from? Ha ! Trouble is they're moreish. Mm. It's their box isn't it? Terrible! Yeah. Mm yeah. pulling out any good in it. Cut us a good one I'll cut it. I'll cut your Yeah you did. I Oh Christ! It's as much use as an ashtray on a motorbike! Or a chocolate fire guard! Or what? Chocolate fire guard! Ha ha eight. Twelve. Twelve. Ha well this is dodgy! Fifteen for two. How's that? Twenty five. Oh, ha. Twenty six. No. Nope. No. Seven for three. Ha oh. Date. Mhm. Fifteen. Fifteen two. Six nine nine ooh. Twenty two. Twenty two. Two. No. Twenty two. Twenty two. Twenty eight. Nope! Keep picking them up boy! Nine. Alright. Nineteen. Twenty nine No. for one. Ten. Twenty for two. Oh crumbs! Seventy five! Ohhh! Ohhh! It's a wild one! Pick them up! Look at that! I'm glad I didn't lay the one before you'd have Yeah. never had a three. Yeah, I would of done. By bi , I sorted them out earlier I thought, well I knew you would, you'd be sorting something out! Is it me first? Yeah. Fifteen two, three's five, one's not, six Change six. Er I think I got After you've had four. And I think I got one. I told you, it starts hitting the old . I think I got Nine, ten in the box! Oh crumbs! Right, let's starts, let's start. see that thumb? You know where it'll get stuck in a minute! That thumb! Ah! Well we're ahead, mate we're ahead. Yeah shut up! Shut up! Shut up! That's the sound of a that's a sound of a worried man! Oh bloody hell! What? Oh my God ! In our box Derek. Yeah I saw that one. Five. Aha! Hello! What's going on? She's thinking. No, I think I'll change my mind. Two. Hurgh ha! Oh Christ! Oh what's that? Are you unhappy? No, good at all! No good at all! Might help the buffs might help the buffs. Yeah. Three mm right oh well twelve. No yeah twelve. Twenty two. Twenty two seventy for twenty nine. No. No. Nope Why, you reckon on getting number one on that? Three aha. Thirteen. Twenty. Thirty No ee for one. Three. They all count Derek! Oh well Christ! Nine. Seventeen. Twenty seven No. for one. All these little ones he's got! See yeah. Seven. Got twelve? Yep. Twenty. Twenty. Twenty. Yeah. It's Ooh ah! I can see that Nearly as big these ones aren't they? Well I'll tell you what, it was, it turned out to be for . Dozen. Fifteen Fifteen two. as before. Yeah dozen. Seven and two's nine, and six, is fifteen two, fifteen four, fifteen six, six is a dozen. Fifteen two, fifteen four, fifteen six,yes , of course. Got that. That's a dozen. Eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve. Then I got four again that's your three! Your lucky I've got six. Derek the the rot's set in mate! Two. Thir Ahh! Could you give tuppence to no. Can we get a can we get what's his name some It's okay I'll get it, tuppence? Tuppence. Dear! Fifteen two fifteen four Yep. And that's it Derek. And the yeah on the box. Needn't look no more! Come on Derek! Our first take. You and I We haven't We haven't been round yet. We , we're going around twice. Oh bloody hell! Ah! They'll never keep this up Come on! for two rounds! Move on. Come on this mental intrigue it isn't doing you no good! I, I have I've only had threes and fours, you know I've gotta get rolling yet. Oh Christ this looks even worse! Mm Who's box, Joy's?. Mine yeah. Joy's box. Something nice would be very nice. I'll put something nice in there for you. Put something good in, nice? Ooh ah! You're a good lad! Well it looks like two or nothing here! Mm. You're just lucky you've got the two! Oh! Got nothing at the moment. Well I, I had done it at the interval. I think after the Lord's Mayor's it started off with a flourish but erm Oh Christ! Ten. Got nothing sensible to lay here either! Er nineteen. Nineteen er twenty nine. Oh! Two two five. Ten. Eighteen. Twenty eight. No. Gosh! I don't get like it when she laughs, that's really annoys me! He didn't laugh when I kept scoring those ones did we now? Sixteen. Come on Derek, go on ! Twenty five. Twenty six. That's fives, that's bloody ! That's it! Who? For you? Thirteen. Oh I said the wrong one! Ohhh! Nearly! Who's gonna have them? You can't have fives and I know ! It's not in the rules. A six would of been nice there though. Er Er looks on two this time. Yeah but it's like next week? Looks like a twosome. four. Cor what's that! Erm Load of rubbish there! Two. What's that? In the box? Yeah a two. And four in now. Why do you put four in? Yeah I don't know. I'll help you. Seven and eight were the only two Oh right. that helped me. Looks like er If you put those in with the two we're neck and neck. Mm. Don't know , go round the corner. Yeah. No just put a I could of put the eight along with that one. I put an eight in well What's that like? Because tha , that was the best value in Sainsbury's, Dutch I lager. Is that what you bought Stew? Yeah. Did you buy that? Yeah. I, I won a can the week, I meant to bring some. What the Dutch lager or or the No not don't know what I got. I bought four for last week and I never got that and lucky I cancelled cos I didn't get back till nine o'clock! Didn't you? No. , pop in and see the ex-wife on the way home. Did you? What in Portugal? Oh it's your daughter that's off to Portugal. my ex is in my own home. Well this looks a bit better. This is no I've got nothing in my hand! Oh I've got something then. Oh you've got Oh I'm glad you have Derek, cos I haven't my boy! Ooh you little blagger! One four. What ? Fourteen. Twenty four for two. Seven is. Well done Derek! Sixteen. Twenty six. Twenty eight. No. Twenty nine. Thirty for two. Ooh! No Thirty for two? yes. Yes. And Thirty one for threes! Ooh ooh! Ahhh! Eight. Eight. Eight. You'll, you'll never get Ten. half the winning profit! I can that. I bet you did! Ten. Nineteen. I'm on my own. Oh sorry! No. No. I don't see any twenty five. Yeah if you get Oh my little darlings! A A dozen. Oh! I've got nothing here Give that woman, two P! Yeah. Twos and twos is four. Twos and twos is four well I'll add it up and with Alright any luck it's me. Yep. Eight, nine, ten look! I had them last time. Mm. So I got er fifteen two, fifteen four, fifteen six, fifteen eight and two's ten innit? Yeah, fifteen two, fifteen four, fifteen six and two's eight, not ten! Eight yeah. Nine and six fo nine and six You've only got one six to go with your nine Fifteen two. Oh yeah, fifteen four Fifteen two , fifteen four, fifteen six and two's eight. Fifteen six and two's eight. Two's eight, yeah. Yeah, we'll give you eight for that. Four four's eight. Just cos you didn't want to pay us! No oh bloody hell Stewart! I think I put a nine in the box . Ooh yeah you did , I can see it! There's one in there. Nine, ten, jack Good job you did! one, two, three, four, five, six two's eight. Eight. Have we done alright? Yeah. My king didn't do no good at all! Where are they, and where are we? They're just round the corner. Just a minute, you going u We're only three holes, two holes in front of you. Nothing yet. How the hell do you get in front? I thought we were ahead! Ha. No we just had a dozen We just had a dozen! didn't I? Oh. Bloody hell thought we were in the lead Derek, you sure you're not going backwards? We are in the lead. No we're not! They're ahead, they said. Yeah, only by one. Look, they're there and we're there! Yeah look two holes, that's all, there's only tuppence Yeah, that's right, that's it. to pay at the moment either way. I just did, I finished up with an eight on one of those there. Stew my boy! I don't reckon my father's pleased. Yeah he is. Perhaps he is. Yeah he bloody is! He don't miss nothing I tell you! I wouldn't say that exactly, but I don't miss nothing. Liar ! Who's ro , it's your box. Right erm hang about I spoke to my dad in town, he say,do you only ever play cards ? Hey? When she played all them tapes back, I said, do you only ever play cards ? No, I go to bingo That's all I have sometimes! That's all they are at the minute cards! Well they're getting a true language on this, I tell you! Cut that pack Stewart. Has somebody got to sit here and listen to all this rubbish? Yeah. Oh well. Now. Oh God! Ahh! Shi shiver my timbers! with me. No. Might help the box. Four. Did you get that tape all clean? Mhm. Do you know the light flickered. Twenty. Thirty. All that way round! Er nine. Fifteen and a flush for two. Yes, fifteen. Fifteen , take no notice of that. Fifteen, oh Christ! Come on off that. Fifteen. Four. Twenty three. Twenty seven. No. Right.. Ten. Twenty. Twenty seven. No. Seven. Ooh good, we've bloody got one Again. Stewart! Yeah, and we got another two fifteen for two. Twenty and one. Twenty Mm. one and ten. No. Aha! Twenty six. Just one hole! Oh even. What is that one? Six we got. So I've got precious little, if nothing here! Erm fifteen two and a pair is four. Oh. I got the same, four. Oh, I've got a few more than that, fifteen two, fifteen Did you get fifteen four Derek? four, five, six, seven, eight, nine. Oh, fifteen two, fifteen four five's nine, yeah. You took it out Did you? He did, he did. Yeah. I've got two,to turn up. Put it in the box then. Two. Two. Four. I've got four, that's more than enough you have any more than those. No , not enough Well , well what a good game ay? Mm. We've gotta get down to here look. Yes, it's their first take. Yeah but we got three hands against their two. Oh shut up! We got three Ooh sorry I didn't mean that We got three hands against their shouldn't be rude! Oh no that isn't . It's our box it's our box innit? Yeah I know, but we got two hands against your one. We've got three hands to their two , yeah. Yeah psychological warfare! Don't want to get too big they won't know how to spell psychological-el! Psychological. Psychological! You get your dozen and I'll get my four I added that for the old tape, you know? Did you? Mm rather than being monosyllabic. Monosyllabic oh! Oh God, not . Right let's keep this under control! This is stupid! Yeah, it is a bit! Well ain't you nothing? What if I have! Excuse me! I got my er you know Outside , two minutes! No problem . Yeah. Right. Don't be subservient! Yeah but that's not bloody there and then! What's he doing now? That's a Yeah oh can't stand ! Eight. Eight. Eighteen Go on get in there! Thirty seven. Thirteen. Twenty nine. Thirty. Go on boy! That a boy! Eight. No, not that many two! Yeah Four four. Two and two's Is it? four yeah. Oh cos I thought, sorry I should of shut up then! Yes you'd better! Eighteen. Twenty three. Oh twenty seven. No. No. Twenty eight. No. It's damned exciting! Twenty. Want a queen don't I? No I don't. Three. No. Twenty No. thirty, nobody's Yep. got the aces so that's another one. Two for you, one for us. Was that a ten? No it's a king. Yeah, he said No it weren't two, three holes. Got two of them. Two of them That's right. Ten. Ten , we're gone. You're going again? Nineteen. With just one hole for you. That's right. Right. Fifteen two, fifteen four, fifteen six, and two's eight five, six, seven, eight. And I've got four again down there. I thought you were gonna get home? Go home, look. Four. Go home. Sixteen. God! By the way she sat there I knew she was home, she was all confident! And . Eighty four. Where's the chocolates. Ohhh! Go on, let's give them to her. This one's on the And how many pegs were there, he's taken them out now. How many pegs were, eight? Not taking out no more Yeah eighteen, four pence each. Four pence each, cor that's a bit under! if I pay four pence to you. . Money, money, money . That's not four pence! That's eight pence! Oh, alright. All ! No, it weren't Ah. eight! That's all Yeah eight pence , four pence Four pence. each innit? Yeah. Oh I see. We're not playing eight We're halving it. pence each,ye , yeah we're halving it. Oh. But there's four But who's gonna get my ? What have we just said? Disgrace! I don't mind. No, you said you were on the dole! Alright. Yeah well don't matter! He . I hope you haven't put you're on the dole on there and drawing money for this! Yeah is on the side and we'll have to fine him. I'm learning to do No. mechanics next! Did you get that sir! I shall stop my milk round week after next! Mm bloody hell! A load of rubbish! Probably wi wi , who's to , who's go is it? Mine. Here are. oi! Didn't like doing that! You sure, you had the box last time didn't you? She won Yeah. it again. Oh! Right chaps! Three. Right chaps! Eleven. Eleven. Ooh eleven mm. Fifteen for two. How many? Nineteen. That's it start the way Twenty two for six. you mean to go on Derek! Twenty seven for six. That shut you up mhm! Did a bit! Twenty seven, twenty eight. No. no. Nope. Twenty nine for two goes three then. Oh alright! Eight. Well we got the other one. Eighteen. Twenty eight. No. Oh God I don't like doing this! Five. Fifteen. Fifteen twenty. Twenty nine. Six. Twelve for two. And one for that one that's it. I'm short of something somewhere fifteen two, fifteen four, pair of six that's all I can there Joy. Yeah that's all you got. And I got fifteen two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, and two's ten. Er got fifteen two Nice little turn up for me, that one. Fifteen four and one for , five . One doz. Cor bloody hell! Derek how did they get these dozens? I told you that one. Erm just two I think, that's all, seven and three two's twenty two. That, that was luck weren't it Derek? Five in and all. I must say it's a pleasure to give you that Fifteen two. I do admire it when somebody gets a good score. Go to sleep my . When I start playing Yeah. we'll be alright. Did you get them? I love them but then they're very drying aren't they these? These are my favourites. Don't have too many We've just have they give me wind! so ahhh! Ahhh my God! So does Sausage, bacon, egg, black pudding, chips and peas. What tonight? Yeah. Then we have blackberry and apple crumble and ice cream. Just like that. I dunno. It's good for you. Yeah if you two say so. Do you say so? Well, got nothing here Stewart. Need a turn up. Absolutely nothing sir. Yes Stew Look for that bit. that'll do, for the only one that'll do me any good. See what ay? flavour. Twenty. Twenty nine. Twenty one for two. Twenty one. Four. Four. Ten Noisy! Oh dear! Eighteen. God I do ! Eighteen. Twenty three. Twenty four. Twenty five for two. Thirty. One for two ooh that's a thirty eight Barely there. Sixty two ? No, no ! Ten ! And twenty for two. Twenty two. Twenty five for one. One. Fifteen two, fifteen four, fifteen six, and two's eight. That's a . Nearly a flush there Joy. Yep. One, two, three, four that's the way. Yeah very lucky. Wer And four. If I'd If I hadn't of gone, I'd of had nothing. Fifteen two,fif Fif four and three is five that's alright for two isn't it? Seven Seven. Fifteen two, fifteen four Five, six, seven. Oh, five, six, seven, yeah. Yeah ! Well I knew that! Shan't tell you again! You'll . That's seven P we could of had! Ooh! Oh no you wouldn't, you wouldn't have the cheek to Two. , let me tell you! Two pairs, had bloody eight of those didn't we? We leave him standing ! Very harassing day today chaps. Have you? Yeah, harassing. We haven't. Got to Val's this afternoon, first of all he said I got a hor , horse running at quarter to three red, red hot tip and John had put two hundred on it to win, and she put six hundred on it to win! What? And they listened on the telephone from Nottingham didn't even mention it! What they get didn't even mention it ! Eight hundred quid just like that, down the drain! We we went racing Saturday. Penny went in and had a twenty to one as soon as she got there she had a twenty to one winner! Me and Pam bet the same horse and didn't know, and we had a ten to one winner! Yeah? I remember that, yeah ! Yeah we did have a good afternoon. Had the old . Well this is a tip straight from the trainer apparently ! Oh! Well so much for that trainer! Yeah. Mm . Oh well, we'll do this one then. Eight. Fifteen. Twenty eight for two. Thirty one. Ha ! Seven. Ten. Twenty seven. Twenty nine. Two. What a stupid card to lay! . Twe , twenty nine. Seventeen . Eight Ten. Eighteen. Eighteen oh, I can't lay that! I thought that was Course you can. fifteen. Twenty three. Twenty eight for two. Oh! Thirty one. Oh that's alright, she gave it back! Did she? Yeah. To be honest, I missed all that! Five Ta ta. Go on Derek! Three only me Oh mm. Three holes and a go. You just had the wrong card there didn't you Stewart? Sunk! Mm? Go for another call. Er fifteen two fifteen four, fifteen six. I had a six here. Fifty two,. That's fifteen six, and three's nine. Yeah. Ooh good one! Alright. Fifteen two, fifteen four five, six, seven Ah! Two. Two. Oh! That's more than a Queens. I know. We shall still whip you! Can't be beautiful and ah! Lucky no. Dozen in front. Yeah, but what Nice! about beautiful, lucky and rich? Do we call in twenty of them . No. No, I just thought it was a last one that you missed out on, I don't know. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe it's that one as well so Gonna be bloody rich in a minute! Ooh! Now that's wrong! Thank you! No, that's right. That's right. What was that? What ? can't claim yeah ! Tongue tied, yeah! Mm mm mm mm mm mm . Money, money, money ! That one. Better be the right one, instead of Nine. Oh Christ! Ten Oh! Suppose so. No good at all! Eight. Eight. Eight. Right chaps eighteen. Twenty seven. Mm good old boy! Six. Ha ! Sixteen. Seventeen. Oh ! Come on Derek,. Seventeen, hang on! Seventeen. Put your glass down and play properly! Twenty seven. Nope! Twenty seven. Eight twenty eight. No. Oh Christ! Six. Fifteen. Sixteen. Twenty one. Twenty Sorry! six for two. No, no, woh, woh! Hang on! Twenty six for two, and five's six per eight. Right cos I got my Cor bloody hell ! So excited! There's twenty two. Fifteen,fifteen three ! I thought oh I've got it ! You aren't gonna get them! Well you'll never get Is it my go? Er No. It's erm Stewart's Who's turn? He's still gloating! Ooh bloody hell! Bloody hell! Two, four, six Is that twelve, fourteen is it? Sixteen. Sixteen. Is it? Mm. Ooh bloody hell! Yes, two, four, six, two, four, six is twelve, fourteen, sixteen,. Fifteen two , fifteen four, fifteen six, two's eight. That's more than enough! Er fifteen two We're still with you. fifteen four fifteen six and three's nine innit? Yep, alright. Go on boy, get round that corner! Go on! Clear , clear the glass up. Clear the glass up. That looks like a two. Ha! Two for twe , twenty twos. There you are. I didn't see them. One hole behind me. You don't need to. No, you're ain't, you're bloody one in front! I'm behind, we're ! How can you be one hole behind when I'm ? Well I tend to move in the same fleet . I dunno. Gotta cover the . Oh we make a bodge of ! I bet you. We could make bodge if I'm only scoring like,opponents wrong score we're in the wrong lane. You're well in front Yeah see the trouble is we don't seem to Oh yeah. maintain the momentum. You're doing alright, you're doing fine, you needn't rush it. Oh shut up! At all. Don't hurry! No take your time. Right, Please concentrate , think what you're doing! We'll let them talk you out of it Stewart! Like they do me at home! No I do Right. Strategy. Who's Box? Well I don't want one now! Don't really like it! What? Don't really like Don't really like it, see, like I do. What's that? I like it. Ohhh Ooh! Christ! Put one of them in the box. Did you? With your two sevens. You to go Stewart. Mm. Make a name for yourself! Three. Twelve. Go on Derek, get in there! No twelve. Oh! Twenty two. Mm. Well we know she's got a nine again. Yeah. Or a six. got. Fifteen. Fifteen. Twenty six for two. Twenty eight. Twenty nine. No. Oh what did I have? Hang about! Can you go? No. Thirty for two. Oh! Hang about!thirty for Ohh! three. I nearly had it again! Eight? Eight. een. Twenty four. Score. Well done! What's my partner got? Oh, not a lot. Have you? Oh Christ! I thought you'd have your ! How many you got Stewart? Not a lot! I dunno, I haven't even bothered to look! Fifteen two, fifteen four, pair is six That's enough. that's it. Six do it. Fifty four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve, fourteen. Ooh! That's good! Fourteen. Er thirty two, thirty four, thirty six. Ooh you've got enough. Ah, well that second time that must of been. So we're erm Is it second time round? Twelve P out. Yeah. No. Have we ? oh that was quick! No. Six P. have we been round? Yes. Yes , yeah, I remember it now distinctly! You liar ! You don't know your head from your arse! What else? No,had your drink. Just hope you remember this? Let me get you a glass. No, it's nice that. No I might take it home, I like a six if you're gonna get Oh Christ! a glass ! We all know about that Stewart we did better without the box. I don't care if we lose all night now, as long as she bleeding ! Ooh I'll tell you what that's better than that. That's better than that? Yeah I can tell. Same stuff. What that Dutch lager is? Yeah Cor that strong! That tastes much better than that one! That was only two pound something for four! I thought it was worth it, two thirty nine. Thursday night. That other one's chronic! Heineken. Oh right I never drink Heineken you see Derek If I buy drinks it so I bought it for him. Your box is it my girl? Mm. Let's see Mine you. Mine. Yep. Oh right! Good old girl! What have you got in there then? Dunno I'll tell you in a moment Everytime it's your box isn't it? You always kick off! Cos we're winning! It's only them two cutting. Oh Christ! And now for the other one. Right then! Right then, So we will . see what we can sort out amongst this lot. There we are, you'll still about nine Eighteen for two. Yeah, I said you would! Twenty seven for six. Twenty seven for six. Ha ha ha ha! Thirty. Thirty. Ha! No . No. There are look, we gotta another Haa! now! Oh I like it! Right what are gonna lay now? Ah a four . You haven't got a one. No! Oh! Come on Derek to help us here! Derek! I like it! Ah! I love it! Where did I go? Fifteen. Did he score off that? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah , you cheeky little devil! Fifteen. Mm. I gotta watch this. You want a five. Eighteen for two. Eighteen. Twenty and eight. Twenty and eight. No. Thirty. No. I think we came off best at the end ! Run your deuce? Are there any more? Have you? Yeah. Five. Eleven. Come on Derek seven No, ooooh! Mm, good! No taunting! Eighteen for three. Eleven, eighteen for three. . And again Derek. Let me have one. Just take one. That'll do ha is som , have we pegged all that lot between us? Yeah. Mm, we did! Bloody hell! Yep. Oh it's me first and I haven't even looked at it, I was so excited! Fifteen two, fifteen five I hope you never win the pools So do I! about. I won't because I don't do them ! Ha! Fifteen two, and three is five. Four. Fifteen two, and two's four. Oh dear! Er two I think. Oh that was very peggy little round though wasn't it? Goodness me! Dozen. It's got ! Pam's doing alright, she keeps getting all Doing a duck She keeps getting two . Just got to . Alright! Come on! Come on! ay, you don't get time to put your finger on it before she's after it! Right. Bloody hell the whole lot's getting a hammering! Yeah, I don't think Pam's catering enough, cos she didn't get enough for us. She did. I had a look in the cupboards, and they've all gone! Don't be so greedy! She did alright. We shall have to get out marked ones Stewart. Yeah. You'd never get a match. Still bloody woo , still lose! Mm. Ha ! Yes well less said the better! I've got a feeling that's wrong, cos I've changed There's one in that box. my mind. I'm putting a three in, so you better put a two in. Yeah. Help out the nation's you better put a two. Don't usually ever lead in . Mm. What have I I'll put all them in, I better put my queen in. Well that's no good! Ahh, I had a queen in it as well,we , did you? Yeah, well you'll have to wait and see won't you! Ah, what's that fifteen? Two. Eighteen. Oh sorry, just a minute they're playing eighteen. Eighteen. Eighteen I see twenty eight. Thirty. Come on Derek! No. No. Alright. Nothing! Er ah er eight. Fifteen. Ha! Twe , twenty four for three. Twenty four for three. Thirty for four and again. No. Five. Is that a run again? Yeah. Six seventy So nine. Er twelve. No I can't what do you mean twelve? Yeah I know ! Relax, it's twelve! Yeah. Fifty two, twenty two. Twenty four. Twenty nine. No. No, she's still following me! Twenty nine. And If I'd have been ninety six I've only got look two, two! That's more than enough! More than enough my girl, that's a, more than I've got. Well nearly! Er five. Ten. Five Pam's still on . Ooh just a minute nobody's got the six! Yeah, I should think so. Who would lose it? Er, what's please? Er fa , the six you say? Six yeah, yep. Look at that Ohhh! six of queens! Someone put the bloody five up! One, two, three, four, five, six. Bad enough being a queen up! Ahhh, enjoyed that one! Isn't it ! Now that's a lie! Most ladies are thick! How're we doing Derek? We should We're give our usual two behind. usual Two behind. position won't we old boy? Mm, putting No. it on. sunshine. Cut that pack you! Is is under way next time? No , we're on No. the first time round. We said we're going to Excuse me! Alright. We only chose that one. Only two. And me, that's too many!. First rate! . Telling me off for Two P each. Telling me Right. Telling me off at work, I ain't got a dozen yet. I ain't started yet! Oh oh dear! Right. Right okay. Mm. Yes, okay, it's about time you started. Put on, put on the throttle Derek. Sit on the throttle? Like a milk float. I can do sixteen mile an hour now, instead of eight. Six, bloody! Ah,God ! No wonder you got no milk when you get the other end! Ooh sorry! Woh wait a minute! End up going down old Come on! M twenty five, sixty miles an hour. Oh Christ! Lot of help you've been! Aren't I lovely? Oh yes you could, where's my another two. Er, oh God, eight! Makes me fifteen. Eight, twelve. Did you notice I did refrain from discussing my hands and I just get on with the game! Twelve, fifteen Cor! for two. Two. Sevente , seventeen for three. Derek, two Derek Derek Twenty two or up. Right, you sure? Yes. About right for Seventeen seventeen for three Derek. Seventeen. We'll buy this one Derek, Yeah, go on! It were a five at the other end Derek ! Yeah I already got one. Seventeen Oh. I wanna go far away, twenty seven. Ooh! Twenty seven? Yep. Twenty nine. No. Thirty. Nope. Thirty one for three, mm. Four! Thirty one. No, four sorry! Four, yeah. Well I was I was Three. trying to give you a chance. Twelve. Don't you take any chances with us! Twenty one for two. Can't you go? Yes I'm just pulling Oh ! a funny face! Oh that's a shame! No, I can't go. Twenty six ooh I've done them once! But can you go again? No. Oh I can, just put that back! Sorry! Mine's a six. Ah, that's a four! I'd of been jumping up and down by the time I got to the Two . Two. What are we on? Sixteen twenty two for three odds. Oh God they've got another one! They picked up a few there Derek. Oh yeah. Yeah. I shall pick up a lot more in a minute. Oh shut up threatening! I've had that four again! I got nine. Haven't got a lot! Three, six Two's eight. eight. Aha. Mm, that's all Derek, eight. Fifteen two, fifteen four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten two's twelve, and one's a little thirteen. Check it will you Derek. . You're no need t , to check that! Fifteen two, three, four, five one, two, three. Didn't keep it No. that time mate. Just about. Tell you, while your gobbing we get going! We won't feel cocky! You'll be auctioning that bottle by the end of the night! Yeah you will ! The way we're playing. I ain't started yet Stewart,alright, don't just keep getting their Mind you he hasn't had a very good partner though! Ah dear! He keeps going off into cloud cuckoo land! He gets excited when he gets two! Shut up ! Shut up ! Five of clubs have been laid. Oh yeah oh oh! The wonderful there is. Five of clubs. Six of diamonds. It's the six of diamonds. Oh . And Ten will do. Ten. Eighteen. Eighteen . That's stopped her in her tracks didn't it? It is. Twenty four. Ooh naughty! Derek! Yeah. Thirty one for two. There's one to four in the middle there. Thirty one for two. No , two fives I mean. Two fives. What've you got, eighteen? Twenty four. Twenty four. Twenty four, that's alright. Yeah you You want a seven to score want a seven. to hit you. No, I ain't gonna waste Go in them. cos I've got them all in! Just try to bluff Twenty four. just tr . Yeah I know, that's what I'm worried about. Twenty four? Twenty nine. Thirty. Nope. Nine. Twelve. Good That's it. Two twenty two. Twenty seven. Thirty. No. Ten. Twenty. Thirty. No. No. No. And that one. Seven. Bluff. You want two holes down, you might get two holes now then. Twenty one one at the bottom. Yeah. Yeah , adjust it. Is this four ours? Four. Bloody hell, I suppose I'll have to stay behind Stewart! Oh he's got a few! Oh! I've got three, six, eight, ten, that's all. Ten? Ten tens, it's not bad . I know, I've got fifteen two, fifteen four, two is six, two's eight. Yeah. Yeah You say Yeah er, I've got fifteen two, fifteen four, fifteen six, and three is nine. Nice one! Clever! Bung them on Derek quick! Now that box can save us we could look a bit happier. I don't think they'll be much in here. Here are take one for his out. Two's out. Two three. A right . Not very good Derek? Mm? No! No, no, no, we get, they could do a couple of duff hands and we could do We could get a couple of dozen now, I ain't had a dozen yet! I Go! I ain't starting yet, oh oh that one gets out. Quite a few dozen. Oh well don't forget he goes bed at half past four! Half past what? Half past four. Half past four. Can you try and get the majority Oh ma ! of my cards face down? That was good . Mm ooh! Who's, who's, who's, who's hand is it? Mine. Fill it up please? Your hand, you got the You know that lot hand. Well I've got it. Yeah I'm ready. Oh my God! Yeah, and me, I've got a Well their not so bad! There's yours. Look Who's box yours? Mine. There's a duff card for the box. I don't know what to do Erm here! It's duff. No. Cor! I'll ta , just take it out cos he's not put it . Ah sod it, I'll leave mine . Strange! That's no good! Ooh that's better! That should Shut up! stop me a little bit. Oh ! Only a little bit. Oh, very good Stewart! There's been, everyone has had seven cards and that's not one of them. It suits me a treat! Go on then. Who me? You Yep. You! Now let me concentrate! Right Nine -teen. Gosh, Nineteen. . I wonder what he's got? Not a lot! Twenty. Thirty. Ooh ah! Thinks he's on the wrong ! No! Eight. Twelve. Mm. Aha. Twelve. Nineteen. Twenty three. Twenty seven for two. No ooh I'm glad I had that one! Twenty eight no, twenty nine, thirty. Ten. Sixteen. Twenty two for two. Did you put that one on of mine? Have you got it? No, I'm out. Oh, that's nice! Twenty eight for six. One. Ohhh! One Does he go one for you. Oh that were a shame weren't it? ugh What's it? Three. Lo ,lo , look, any card amongst a, that lot Ooh! Oh yeah. Eight. One card might have been away. Yeah, you . Yeah. What have you got? Eight? Eight yep. Don't worry the Kentucky, as long as it's Takes a bit. still labelled. Si Good old boy! Four. Six teen. Three, three. Three. Twenty eight. Done, and one for that. One for that. Mm, one for that. Yeah. Oh it's me again. Ain't got a lot there! I think I haven't got a lot there no, that's not a lot . Fifteen Two two. Fifteen two, fifteen four. Ooh ah! Ooh ah! Ooh ah! You ain't got a lot there either! Fifteen two. Bloody hell! Three's five. No. Pam's doing alright! I'd rather Yeah. be in Pam's team. Since it's been in nines. Not in Aha. Not in the See how much you want ! Sweet and lucky in love. Lucky in love. Did well yes. Well you see the thing is we're supposed to do these at home I said well it had been twenty hours or nothing cos me and my old man don't speak! I said to Pam can we take over your house and do some taping for me? She said, well you'll get a hu , a hu Me and gotta beat her ! Yeah. If you send it over Derek's you wouldn't get much of that either! No, cos I'd have her in there! She knew a lot of telly. Neighbours Oh! and bloody Coronation Street and all that crap! Ooh! Ooh! You'd hear all that! And don't say crap, that's a very good programme! What is? Coronation Coronation Str Oh what a load of dip! I lo , I've recorded whatever's on tonight, is it Eastenders? K Y T V I've got on tonight recorded that. S H I T more like! Yeah. K Y T V is very good, K Y T V. Hang on ! K Y T V, what's that? I didn't think you'd be a Coronation Street addict. No, I wouldn't! The best people are. Princess Anne. Well it's the biggest load of rubbish, people don't really live No, very good acting. like that! Mhm. No one said they did! Well it isn't even good acting! That's enough! It is, very good. Erm, when we were on the Oh Ben! Let's give it out of! What's the name of them all the Emmerdale Very good acting. I often have dinner with Barbara Knott. A day up in that Manchester Studio. She's trying to claim personal No, I weren't, I weren't there. Eight how's that chaps? Bloody disgusting! Yeah, your I last dozen in the bin. Oh my God! Ten , fifteen, twenty. Seventeen, twenty seven chaps. Thirty. Nope. Nope. One shuffle. Ooh bloody hell! Look at all them! The gone out. Ten. I'm not playing Ooh! any more. Sixteen. Twenty six. Erm five for six. Yeah, I'll do it with that one then. What's the matter with you? Got verbal diarrhoea? Verbal Two. diarrhoea, yeah! Ooh Christ! Two. Now we've got him. Six teen. Thirty. Twenty. Yeah. I've gone. Twenty three. Nope. Ooh! Go on, and another one Derek! And a one for that. That were one each weren't it? Yeah one each, cos erm I was gonna say, we had that one last time. Stewart? I haven't even Four. looked at my hand! Er What a lousy turn up! Yeah, terrible! What have I got here! Fifteen two Fifteen four Fifteen four Four's eight. Four's eight, yeah. Two. I know, I know! Ooh ho! Five , six, seven. What? Ooh look I can swa Cor I've got a headache! In your head! Have you all done? Er, all I've got is fifteen Four two he's got. four, Four in his hand. fifteen four. He's just excited, you wanna see him when he got twenty four in his hand! He'll never be able to count them! Seven er seven eight Yeah , twenty four! That's four. Oh yeah. Yeah. Twenty four? It was. Seven, eight and Now you be careful was half a dozen there, and there's a dozen Yep. there that is Bloody hell! I can't count these one here! Three five That's four P. ten , fifteen, twenty three, it's that That's right. before er No it's not No. it's your box! Four, one Cos you had twenty four, which is two twelves. Oh I see, thank you very much. Do you mean he's earnt a pay? You want Yeah. your back pay? Yep. No I'm kidding him! Are you absolutely sure you got it right? Yeah. When you said eights and yo er and you said and I, I put an eight in so Oh you're getting another one! Cor, what a hand ay! I couldn't Twenty four, that's nearly his top hand innit? Twenty nine's the top hand. Is it. Oh look there's pop sockless clerk! Pop socks what? Pop sockless clerk ! Oh stop it! Have we finished all this grub now? Yeah. They gotta be finished. Do you want these three nuts? Have you ever heard that one Yeah, I'll have a nut. before? And the salt. No I haven't. It's not good for you. Oh I don't believe this! Just put some ooh ah! Sit down! That's it. Good lad Ben! Oh God! I don't believe these stupid hands! It's my box this time ! Yeah well you won't . Never know, it might become a little trade ! Come on, sit down then! Ah right. Right. Oh dear this is looking a bit tricky! Come on, who's cut is it? All tools are wet, round and ? Yep. Don't ask me what it means,but it No! looks good ! So I use a wet stone you see. We're one up. You're cutting! if we're gonna can I have another line, didn't get the right one here ! One and eight it's a queen. Oh well! Got these to go on. Nine. Fourteen. Oh sorry, sir! We're, twenty four. Twenty and eight. No. No. Twenty eight. Sorry, twenty eight? Thirty one for two. Is that what you wanted was that the right card to put down? Yeah. Yeah. Stop! I Eighteen. Twenty and eight. Thirty. No. Sorry, I couldn't quite manage it that time Ten. Nineteen. Twenty nine for three and a go That was a stupid four. to lay Got no choice! Can't you take them back, just ten ! Ten, nineteen. Ooh it's off this time Ooh ah! Ninety eight. Ooh yeah I can have one for you. Who's got the box. I. I'll do it. Er, six. I wanted a bloody six or Seventeen. a seven. Seventeen . Ah shit! Seventeen . No, six pair's eight. Ay? Ooh we still haven't bodged up! Two. Seven, thank you. Three. Tuppence. Fifteen two three, four, five And Take the lot, go on two , three, four, five, that's a good one! No good staring at it Joy, get it Well I looked get on with the bloody game! I thought I'd lost put your glass in middle! Now you know it feels ! Deal the hand, come on!come on stop hanging about! Too much talking round here! Er, yeah you're right, you're fined Are we ? We're still ahead! Twenty About twenty holes. six Twenty two. Oh yeah. It's nothing! No look my girl, we thrashed you last , look my men! Look my men! You said that just like a Jersey bean now look my men! Ooh ah! Ooh ah! Ooh ah! Can't be a ! Told you Derek, you can't push our luck . Ahhh ! Oh Christ! Oh my giddy aunt! Do you know I had the I had the funniest hand. Just a minute, I'll have that card back. Oh no, no, no, no, no, no, no! Can't you do that? No? Yeah, we'll let you. Go on! What was it? Oh. Is that the one? No, it's at the bottom Oh, gotta bloody spoil him haven't you? so I can't now, no. Oh Christ , now he's knows all about the box! Bloody con artist! That'll do! Well he got you a . Three's about Derek, three's about! Ahhh dear! Three. Three. Erm He'd have something to say after sixteen. No, sorry, three, nine. Nine. Nineteen . Nineteen. That's exactly what you should of never played! Twenty nine. No you shouldn't! No. I didn't realise, I thought it was sixteen again. Twenty No. nine. Twenty nine. No, sorry! Thirty. No. You can get your twos out. Thirty one. We're too good ! Ten. Fifteen. Fifteen. Fifteen. Oh yes. Go on, twenty for two! Let's go for it mate! Twenty three. Twenty five. Seven no. Twenty nine for three. Four. No . Two Four three, four, five. No. And again. Twenty nine. Yep. No. They're going into . How many cards have you got there? You got about sixteen Ga , no! and fives and ten you haven't got any fives. Thirteen. No I haven't. Twenty three. Twenty nine. No Thirty seven for got one. six. Oh I got one. Yeah we got one. Right, fifteen two, fifteen four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve Bloody hell! eight Yeah, how many dozens have you had this time? Fifteen How many? two, fifteen four, five, six, seven. Four. Five six, seven. Ooh ooh. Er Look, look, look! One, two three four, five, six two's eight. Ooh! One's nine but No, you ain't having them! No, you ain't having it! Ha, ha, ha! Cheater! Hey, you got a box here, there might be something in this. I don't Yeah Not that I put in! Sorry ! You stupid fools! What was in it, all medals and Three, four, five Three and four nine and a jack. and a king I put it in. So it's three, four, nine and a king a king and a jack turned up. Well that's fifteen two, and a pair's four isn't it? Oh easy! All these are looking nice! But Derek only we could get bodged with nothing Ohhh! in it though! Ohhh! Oh oh! Oh ah! Not much gamesmanship going on Ah! here! Mm. Derek, just keep up the pressure, just demonstrate how we got them by the short and curlies and Are we? It is there box yeah. And if It's our box. right card comes up here, which I don't seem to be getting a turn up! If the right card comes up we Er could have a lot again. Well it is tur ,tur tur ,tur ,tur , turning turning. I've not got a very good hand here! Oh my God! Who's box is it? He's trying Ours. to make an excuse! It's their box. In fact it bloody useless! I wanna two! Jack! Jack! Ooh! Oh Christ, in the bloody box! King! I put one of those in the box. Yeah, I did know there's one in there,and there's woh oh ! I put a five in. here we come ! Twelve and two. Ooh! ooh! ooh! Twelve. Oh you're off again are you? Yeah. Thirteen. Ooh! No, twelve and nine's, twenty one! It's fifteen , twenty one! Oh sorry, yeah. Twelve and nine, yeah, twenty one. Thirty for two. What a stupid card to lay! Sorry! You did it? Go! Go! To you. It was you started it off! Ten. Ten. I know! Eighteen. Come on Derek! Eighteen. Kill them! Twenty two. Twenty two. You ain't got another have you? Eleven I'll Sorry! go that way. Ooh! Thirty seven. Thirty one for twelve. Oh no I've got it! You ain't? I've got the ride! Twenty seven. No I can't go ! No I can go thirty for three. Three and a go, cos there's Yeah. no aces around I'll have , one. Why is it thirty for three? Cos he had four, five and Four, five, six. I laid the three! Oh, well I never! Right, can you do Yeah you see! Er, nine. Nine teen. Twenty nine for three go! Thirty one. Thirty two. Get that three in Derek, quick, before they grab it! Nine teen. Oh what a shame! You've spent it, ha! It's for one. For one Derek, you got one there. Was a one was it? Yeah. Oh was it? Bloody hell, come on Stewart, we're bloody That's right yo come on Stewart! I've got nothing here mate! In fact, I haven't got anything! He hasn't got nothing! Nothing? And I've only got two. Oh God! Well I got six , I wanted a bloody two though! Well Fifteen three yeah! fifteen four, fifteen six, seven, eight, nine Hang on to your hat now! Hang on to your They've got it! hat now! Fourteen! Ooh! Ah Christ! We nearly got the box! I put that five in there! And I put the king in, and this, and you put the king in I'm putting the king in! and forgot!! Stewart dear,, no you take wha That's it look! There's a grin of across here of these two P's they keep chucking out! I don't wanna play any more, I wanna go home! There will be, there will a troop across here! I wanna go home! Well it ain't over yet man! No. No. But they're way ahead, and we were having a lovely lead Yeah. just then! Saturday night. We were only according to me! Eight. About nine holes in front. Yes but this is the run home! I know! It could happen! We've gotta keep up You might stop us pegging! You're gonna stop talking to them and use this instead of this! Alright I won't speak any more! No talking allowed here! You ain't thinking! Don't you? You're playing right into their hands, that's why they're beating us! He's saying nothing ! They play this seven days a week! And why, they don't need to think about it, they can talk you out of it, they only gotta go ! Wah wah wah wah wah wah! They've got you mate! I have and that one! Ay! Ay Starts up! with bloody hands like this it's difficult ! Oh Christ! Why not have a go at this he says! Oh dear, that's a shame ! I put one of them in the box! Oh! Well I never ! Two. We Twelve. straight in ! Twenty two. Nine. Four. Don't half make for me! Four, eight, for two. Eighteen. Twenty four. Twenty four , twenty eight. Yeah another one. Ooh look! Did you see him ten playing right? Twenty six. Twenty six. No. Nope. No. I'm go , I can do it. Twenty six. Ooh! picked up two there! Yeah you picked right up there. Four. Oh shit! I ain't got very many That's what I mean, it's not , I think it's about ooh ooh, I got fifteen two, fifteen four five, six, seven. Well if you'd have got eight, nine, you'd been in! This means we've lost again! Yeah. No, it's alright. It's a P each. Ahhh! Got a bleeding lunatic hand I've got! Look what I had, look! Look! Well you had twelve. Dozen! I know. What you got, a pair? Two! That was nearly a Well what was it , what was the, what Two. was the turn up? Two, the same. Two. Oh, not much there then. I gave Twelve. you that. Just a P. I didn't intend to. One P? Oh big deal! That were hard work for a penny! It didn't work No then? but pretty exciting! You did, we nearly pegged all them. Yeah. Yeah. If you peg two more , the minute I stop talking we started to Yeah, well that's right! and thinking! We told you, you always gob too much! God, they are rude! Good God, they are rude! Ooh ooh, your lot! Has he won it? We have We've got the box. Ooh! Christ! You had what in holes? Yeah, well you should of done that five hands ago and then you'd have been seventy five pence down! They got three hole! Yeah alright! God! There's no need to hit me, I'm you're friend yo since I stopped talking. Yeah, it's me ain't it? now?. No I don't ! Ooh, look at these ! Your researchers gonna forget ! Oh sha ! Alright, shut up and stop talking ! racket! Mm. You could win this you could win it all back at once. Ooh you bugger! That's what that's what's most fun though, the talking innit Stew ? He's saying nothing! He's saying no ! Oh bloody hell! Oh I'm ever so pleased! isn't owt in there! Get out! Put that back! Derek's turn. Mm. Oh I don't want this one! Yes you do! You never looked! No, I don't! No, I do. Ten. Ain't got a lot there! Seventeen. I knew you'd do that! I'm gonna give her the chance, twenty four for two. No. No. Twelve. No twenty five. Twenty six for two. Come on Stewart! Yeah. Six. Ten. Ten. What did you say the score is? Twenty. Thirty for two. No. And again. Four. Nine. Ooh ooh ! Nineteen. Twenty three. Twenty six. No, twenty five! Thirty. No. eleven. Ten. You only go. Yeah. Oh, I've got one of them, I've bloody got one! Fifteen two, fifteen four two, six Put my eight in the box and she went to go and grab it. What do you get? Got a Stewart? No, fifteen Fifteen two two er two's four. three is four. Lot of potential. One, two, three, four Oh yeah. six , seven eight. Yeah fifteen two, and two's four. I got fifteen two, fifteen four, two's six. I put my eight in the box, look! That's not interesting! Just put the box down and yakking! Better than my bloody two! Yeah, well! Say no more! Eight, nine, ten, jack! Four. Look at that! Four one, two, three, four five Five. was it five? I put that hat in. An hat! And, her hat! No,your hat. Get your hat on! How we doing Derek? We're behind! It's not much better anyway ! No, I shall keep talking! You were better off when you were talking! Right. Well don't put that one there, cos I don't wannit! Oh yes I do! Ooh dear! I've got enough without it. Have a good look at the . It's so complicated,! He's been a bloody fairy ain't he? Who does what? I do this don't I? You do this . Is it hard? Ohhh! Oh that'll do. Mm! Will help us a bit. All happy chaps? Very nice! Nice! Go Stewart! I got soap to put in my bloody ! Go! It's all over ! Nine! Nine. You'll like them, cos you've used Yeah. your old card and you Nineteen. score off them they can No,. twenty nine for two. No. Thirty one for two. Ten. Ooh ah! Thirteen. Thirteen? Nineteen. That's not a bad card. Twenty two. What have we got? Twenty two. Three , three six twenty two? Mhm. Yeah. erm twenty two. Twenty seven. Thirty. Nope. Oh! oh! oh! oh! Yeah four, I've got one of them . Eigh eighteen eighteen. Yeah! Twelve, twenty two. Twenty nine. No, you know that one. I'll get Have we all gone? That's a nice little card though that. Good! Terrific for me! Erm, not a lot there I don't think. Fifteen two. Two. Two. Oh no, there's more than that. That's it. That's right. There's more than that. one. Was that one there? No Eight I dunno. ten, eleven lot's No. of potential again there. Yeah. Yeah. It's all the old potential. Well it's Well it something. don't matter , it don't matter, nothing for potential! Fifteen two, fifteen four four's eight and four's twelve. Eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve. Fifteen two fifteen four Eight. and four's eight. Five, six, seven, eight. Twelve. How many in the box? Twelve. No,, I'm waiting for my pay up! So put yours on Derek! Yeah. I got two threes and I've got er two little ducks. Oh I'm . Stuck in the muds. Right Derek let's start showing our true potential! I kept her hand. No, it's alright, you're going get it now. We haven't got anywhere near a dozen yet! No you haven't have you . Eight's, eight's about my highest I've got. I've had a few . I've had quite a few. One or two twenty fours but nothing . Actually I've, so I've had . Two twenty fours. Oh my God! Is he hard to live with or is not? I'm bloody struggling I am! To tell you the truth. I think it's your partner, he's not pushing the cards round to you. They're there Derek it's just for There. you to make use of them. They're there. Yep, they're there. Is it our box? We've gotta put don't know whether it'll do I've gotta put that good but we could have some here if we get the right ones. Oh God! Fucking hell! Can't get a damn turn up! I've got a . So have I. Never mind Derek! Seven. Twe , seventeen. Twenty seven. Twenty eight. Twenty nine, thirty. No. No? Twenty one for two. Ooh! Bloody hell! Ha! Seven. Two. Twenty seven. Nope. Yours again. Whatever one I lay, she'll have the other to it! Eight. What? Fourteen. She's got Twenty four. Twenty seven. One for you. Seven. Seven. Three. Fifteen two, fifteen four fifteen six and two is eight. Yeah that's right that eight. I got two,just the one ! Fifteen two, a pair's four and three is seven yeah? Yeah, I Seven. should think, seven it is. Five, six, seven, yeah. Oh that's a bit better! Stewart, a lot in here mate. Not a lot in here! Fifteen six, and six is a dozen that's ! Come on, get your money across! Come on! Well well I dunno. We knew what were in there before you even opened your hand up! Hand up! You couldn't of done cos you didn't know what I putting down! We did, we We did. We knew what We knew what were in there! We knew which of three already dead. I out there. already got one! Ooh! Don't get nasty! Now come on! Drop dead! It all shows doesn't it? I mean I'd, I'd help them. Stop touching me in the knee Derek! Oh it's your You did it all then mate, you did it all. Eighteen. Eight in the hole. And . See what close liaison does between good players! What does that mean? I dunno. Don't know, but it ain't bloody helping us much ! Well it's not an effort it's not an effortism for a then is it ? Nor an effortitism! Neffortiti! Oh dear! Neffortiti ! You okay? He's being a good aren't you He isn't. now? He's peeping! go at them. Is it jaws? Yep. Jaws ! Jaws ! Wonder which one? Yours ! That's a pretty good Yours! Jaws box ! Jaw's box. I wanted something, didn't do that. Erm right, nine. Nine. Sixteen. Fifteen. Another six is fifteen. Fifteen Oh dear! twenty five. Twenty and nine. Thirty. What do you want? Any advance on thirty? No,. Nope. Yep. You going backwards or forward? No. Seven. You just went that way. Yeah he is. That's right. We're going No, you went up we're going anti-clockwise. You're going up there now. Yep, Going up it that way. But you went down here! Yeah, you went down. No I didn't! You did! You're doing it again! You did! You You did. went down there! No I did not ! You did, I know you did , cos you were eight in front of us. Did I? Yeah! Yeah. Oh Christ! That's why we ain't done no dealings! It's alright he , he's watching you! I know whether you have. Seven. Er Seven. seven fourteen for two. Ay hup! That's the way. Seventeen. Seventeen. Twenty seven. Twenty nine. Thirty one for four. Hang on! Five. Got six, seven. Ooh! Seven. Seventeen. Twenty five. Again. No? Thirteen. One out each. ah! Ooh! Six. And six. Not getting away with them! Fifteen two, pair's four and that is all. I got fifteen two, fifteen four, five, six, seven. And one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine that six is fifteen, and one sixteen! Bloody hell! ! What can you do to her? Can't compete with hands like that mate! Can teach yourself half of that's about my stamp. That was a good one weren't it? Bloody hell! That was very good! Thank you. Where do I keep the arsenic? Erm Want some arsenic? Say, okay yeah! I can't and you're in the air. Couldn't possibly hate somebody What are we now? Give them a bloody good shuffle this time! Oh that's not too bad! Are you being ? It's only an hour. It's not too bad. And as long as you keep You come a bit early from Yeah,. Leo! Come on, don't start disturbing him! You've been a good boy! What's? What's he up to? Go on! Go back! Jesus wept! Erm one card would really do me some good. I don't want no more, I've got enough here. Do you want this one? One like this? Who's is the box? It's your go! That's the one! that's the one! Is this the one is it? That's the one. Oh Christ! Great! Why didn't we have that one? Well it helps a bit! me good! Ten. Ten. Twenty. Thirty three. No. Ten. Twenty for two. Thirty. No. Hang on! Ooh this is my box coming now! Ten. Ten. You. Nineteen. Twenty nine. No. Ten. Fifteen. Eighteen. Twenty two for three. No. No. Twenty Twenty one. five fo , for three and a go. Three again. Stewart! Ten. Twenty. Ooh ! Two holes. Two kings. Two hole. Four jacks, that's all I got, so what's that? Doz twelve and one and hung up thirty. Five, and you'd got a What? That five, yeah, makes it ! Yeah! Bloody hell! Cos he's got one for his hat. Somewhere. Four, eight five, ten, and one, two, three. I won't pay you cos I've got a dozen. Oh ! Have you? Mm. No I don't pay you cos you How do we get these bloody hats? Fifteen two, fifteen four fifteen six, and two's eight. I keep getting bloody eight! Five seven It's alright. eight Is this the first run round? No, this is home. Home. What again? Yes it is cos the yeah yeah cos Derek were going backwards when we went round the corner weren't we? Oh yes, that's right , he was. Fifteen two, fifteen four and two's six! Fifteen two, fifteen four and two's six! Ooh and it's your . Oh well Derek, there's a chance still mate, if we can stop them pegging but I think the chances of stopping them pegging three is a bit remote! No! No! You've got the first lead. Yeah I know ! And that's worth six to you for a start ! I can only make two , Derek can make four! Or six! It all depends whether I take it or not! But we want to make ten! Aha! No, I think it's pretty as I said, we can reduce it a bit. Yeah. Four bloody jacks ! I know! And that five. I had one one day and a five turned up! Yeah, still there. Yeah another twenty four! Twenty four You hand one day it was twenty nine weren't it? twenty no Twenty five it will have been. Was it? Yeah. Two, four, six, eight No, sorry, twenty, twenty one! twenty, twenty one! Twenty one. Sorry! Who's box? Mine. That'll be How many do we want? Three. You better peg two and half! You better peg Is that a nice three card for you? beautiful! Alright. Bootiful! Have a look down that box . Come on, stop your chattering! I'm glad it isn't your box! No, in my hand cut me a jack and give me two. What do you want? Jack. Cut me a ten. Ooh! Is that what you want ? Ahhh God! Ooh, are they good! Four on there. Bloody five now! Now it's up to Stewart, whatever he blooming took! Yeah and we gotta stop you from pegging! If you want to. Well I, I can't really do much about it old chap! Oh I see. Because I've got a rather stereo-typed type of hand, if you know what I mean? Oh I see. Three. Three. How many do we want? Three. Six for two. Nine. Ten. Half a six. Nine. That's a bloody but Eighteen. Ohhh! Eighteen Go on! Line them ohh! Six ! No I can't! Eighteen. Eighteen. I had two left! I can't! I haven't got them ! Thirty four. Same as mine! He doesn't even know he's got them! Oh I got best bloody hand around! I only had two kings! Ah? What? I had look I had bloody fives Put them in the box! and sixes and threes and what's Oh God! Put them in the box! Put them in the box! Oh I wasn't worried the box, I knew it wouldn't get that far. Erm three and a half each, that's all. How much is it? Yeah what is it? Three? Three . I tell you what I tell you what, seeing as I'm generous I'll give you the chance of getting Yeah. One or to , or two. Is it? Or three or four? Heads. Wait till we get a two. No, you got a two, get out! Might of bloody known! Waste of time me cutting, of course! Oh dear! Oh dear! Do you want another one of them? Or do you wanna play Knap? Want to play Knap? What about Knap? Knap? Yeah. Can you remember? You can play Knap. Whist But I've forgotten it . Whisty Knap. No, it's a whist game that is. I'll guarantee I'll watch it while you're doing it, I, I've completely gone, you know what I'm like ! Yeah, Ah, why don't you start it! That's it , you ge , what you do is you I'll sort the cards out, you'll know it. You go, you go You lay you know, how many cards do you have? Five. Five. Five. Five, yeah. And then what do you tell me what you do,. There's five cards. Yeah No then yo , you have a one you have a for a penny. Ah! Penny ah! It's coming back to me now! That, yeah. I like this one. And then if you can go, you go three with eight four with, four without, five . Ah, it's winning tricks,yeah ! Two. And if somebody's going you keep your king double. So it's So it's everything else the minimum amount is three isn't it? That's right. And it's with and without all the way up to that, yeah. Yeah, so the card And it takes ages to call can't have three with it, you gotta go three without. And what's the, the knap is the top hand you Yeah what do you do? You lay Go five. and you Napoleon it if you've over called. You have to lay your lowest trump card first. First But Derek always calls the next one up the stop the kitty game. . That's what he told me to do. That's right. So that's right. I've gotta call pig calling Yeah, but you see if you call In fact , you're gonna double up . We want a pi , er pot for the Right. Er to ,to ,to Will this do? Yeah put it on table, that'll do. Yeah, that'll do. It's only in front first time round. I couldn't think what it was and me erm Yeah it is. Oh it's got K Y T V on it now, yep. What's that? What's that? It's a television set , er er television er pretend television erm company. It's a satire on it's very clever actually! And apparently it's based on K Y jelly! Which I can't quite see what that's got to do with a television company but No! That's your hand that's the peeper. That's your hand, that's the peeper. You have to quite carefully, be extra carefully with me for a minute cos I can't quite Yeah, well we know that! remember this. Do you have trumps, hearts, clubs, diamonds, spades? The first one that you lay is the trumps. Ah, that's right! Right. Er everything is clear! So we got five cards out. How many sleeping then, loads? Three! Ah, just a minute! No, they're all from from, from nine to Nine to the ace. Nine to ace. Nine to the ace. And there's three sleeping from nine to the ace, I see. Right. Ah. You in Derek? No I'm not. out. Yep that's, so we're all in. That's the peeper, you wanna say who you had Hang on!.. pay to have a look. And if you're going you have to share it when you got No , not all that bothered the card. not all that bothered. I'll have a look. I'll try a three! Hello ! This is a right one here! Hello! Oh! No ah! Three. Three. Three at me, right. This looks pretty good. One. Oh ah! Yeah! Two. Erm Got some players here. Oh well. Two. That's mine. No. ! Turned out hasn't it? Yeah. That's mine. No,yo , that's yours. You knew all the bloody time ! Standing there waiting for six! Do you reckon I reckon she did! I reckon she must be , cos I've got the nine! Or is it ! Here you go then. Good though weren't it? I reckon she knows! The way she was hanging on! What? But she's waiting. I can't really do I shuffle? Yeah. Excuse me! quite lucky ! And you deal five? Five, yeah. Right. And then you have a first look, but you don't have Do we put a penny in the kitty now? No, cos she No. paid me. And you had the last show, cos you're the first looker. Does anyone cut? No. No. No. Right. I'm checking! Just so, cos otherwise I Just get on with it! get my face slapped or something if I do it wrong! Too right! Bloody hell! You can have it! You could park it on Oh sometimes. Do you want it before then? No. No. No , no. Cos you won't forget it, No, you're . Just remember what it is. I'll have a look. Nope. Er I'll go four with it. I'll go four without. Four without it? Yep. Come on then! Got a bloody tricky! Most likely lose a fortune at this! One you got! One. How do you keep track of what you've Two. Two. got? Do you just have to remember? No Two. na , no, we're watching you. Oh well that's bloody obvious! To You are stupid ! Now who followed, anybody? No, yep, yep, no, nobody followed. Ooh! A three. Hello! Three. Christ! Perhaps that could of come from there! Let's see. That's what? Sixty. What each, two each? No. Two each, that's right Yeah. yeah. That's it. So you don't pay for it. Put them in the box. No. Put the kitty in that. We, we all put it in the box, we don't pay other. Right, yes, right. You had a good shot there. Oh I thought I'd give it a try, why not! Yeah, you've got to. Just sit all night doing nothing. And when there's four of you playing i and you get down to the last two or three card. I with the jack, so I thought well somebody will throw me the thing, you know? Yeah. And they did. I hadn't got Right. nothing else to No come back at you with. Not any good! Not any good! Three. Did you say three? Go on then. One, two, three! And somebody put a three Yeah. behind me. Well I have as it happens We take ours. I happen to have five in a row here! I never had one! I got two. My queen's asleep! Oh well I'd better What do you have? Three Three P. Does that go in front? Derek's deal. No, that goes That all goes in there. To me. Alright, My deal is it? Yeah. Anybody wanted to put the kettle to . Don't please! Derek, you've bloody What? you've put all the cards down! Oh I never! You're just studying Where did I, oh I got them off of there didn't I? The thumb! And then you split them! Well I only cut them anyway! Yeah I know that! Stewart. Do you mind mugs? Phone! Phone! Do you mind mugs? No! That's it! Like that? How many should there be here then? That's it! That's it! Oh! Hello! Twenty four. Hello Mandy! That's right. No. Nine , ten, jack, queen, king. Where are you? Ace. Ace. Oh that one? Six four's And erm yes, your mum's out! Yes, she's gone to and I just ordered the , ha! You alright? Was there me , message love?alright? Love to you all! Bye bye! We all had the battery switched off. Bloody hell! Had it in the bedroom when I was a kip this afternoon and I switched the battery off,so it doesn't work very well with the battery off! What are we playing? Knap. Oh ah ! Oh ah! Urrgh! There's yours here. Any calls yet? No. No. No. So how far's it gone round? Me. Only you. Is it alright to call Only me to see,yo once you've called them? Yep. You do what you like! up a call. You can't call that you can't over call if ain't called a at all. . at all, no. I can't do it when I'm playing with our Marge, she gets her hair on! Ha! I'll go three. I'll have a look. I'll let you, two three. Cos I'm dumb! Right, oh it's my lead is it? Yeah your lead. First one's your trump. Oh my I've lost it! Mm. Yep ha. I can't do much now! Well you've done that already mate! Jus just keep your money there! Sorry! Yeah. It's alright. tonight . Mm nice one for that. One. One. That's one. Two. Two. And that one. Two. Two. I'm not gonna make it now. I should of Shall I? gone. Take my money and see if you can do better than me! Do you want How many coffee? How many shall I put in, sixteen tens? I'd Yes. have gone next to go four with actually. Yeah, that's right. Well why didn't you then? Well I, I didn't think about that, all three without was easier, but I think four with would have been better. Well , sometimes they aren't. Erm, coffee, coffee, coffee? Coffee, please? Derek? Yes with sugar please? and milk? What about Yes please? you girls? I'll yes three please. Do you mind mugs? No. No. We have one. No ! We're using it. Ooh! Ooh, ooh, ooh! I picked I picked up. No whispering! What is? Which a which is the P cup? That one? I'll have to guess in the pack. Daren't whisper it, Derek . This is better . Hahhh! You got a job yet, none of you? No. No. No I don't Ah? What you doing now then? Tea factory. Oh yeah. You know Briggs's She's a . Oh you work with Mo then? I'm . Who? Mo. Morris , he works there,Briggs's What Woolsden Yeah. Morris? Mm. Morris Mo. You know Morris? Oh yeah, somebody ordered that the other day, but I've never Mokey I ca , it's, that's the only one if it ca , that's from a long way away that name. If you call him Moke I'm the only person that calls i that calls him that, so he'll know who you're related to . I thought, I'll tell you who he used to remind me of, cos I sta he started coming to me when he had his first car and he reminded me yo ma , you know erm Seventy Seventy Sunset Strip? Oh yeah! Oh yeah! I , well Mokey Yeah. was in that. This bloke. They were old motorbike cops or something, one of thems' name was Mokey Eddie. and he reminded me of of i well, that's what I've called Weren't one of them Cookie? Yeah, Cookie that was Eddie. Eddie and one was Mokey. And Eddie , no . , yeah. Mokey oh! I shall have to erm Well at least, I think his Mrs works down there. Keith were telling me his Pat. wife's took vo , voluntary re redundancy yesterday. Keith ? Mm. Up from where? Whitworths night duty. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. No, Keith yeah. ? Mm. I didn't know that. Cases of all gone down. There's Are they? now pricing on them. Mm mm! Do you hear about that young girl killed in Rushton the other night? No. Mm, said that Oh yeah! We one of Yeah, thought it were Wendy's children. One of 's erm Who which were it? All the 's always lived up there ain't they? Erm What Harrison? Wha ,wha What are they to do, with the garage people? Yeah. Are they? They used to have they used to have cars, taxis and what have you. There's no end of bouquets out there on that lawn! Where she were killed! Sad it is Two boys racing up er, Chester Hill. Killed her on the top of er, Chester Road, the bendy avenue! What joy riding someone? Yeah. Yeah. Young girl! They were racing. Young girl eleven year old killed her outright, and the mother was found along the street and she's seriously ill! Hope they got them! Who's this, recent people? Saturday Yeah night! Saturday night! Half past nine Saturday night! Oh, Oh , I took the dog for a walk last tonight, and there's some skid marks down the end of Crouch Road the there's the and then they'd taken half the road out and you can see someone's done a wheely, and they've gone in and done like this business and shot off! That'll be where they've left they Is she dead? She left three children on the edge. Left three children there and took the took eleven year old for a wa , dog for a walk, and nobody knew she'd left them there, cos she didn't come back until Sunday afternoon at three o'clock! So they were on their own all that while! The other's only eight! Bloody hell! Why? Cor! Eight, five and three. Cheers! Erm sugar . Bloody hell! The That's what I say, you don't realise you took the dog for a walk Ooh that looks nice sugar! you get bloody killed Mm. do you? That's a bit of tragedy! Are they alright That's nice sugar, is it demerara? then, the little-uns? No, ordinary golden Yeah, they went Was it it's golden, sort of this Really! Oh, looks nice! No, the daughter took them out to erm look at the . Cor! Bloody hell! There's no sugar in there Derek. Right. They thought it were Katy, they went up to Ra , er, to Wendy's at half past eleven . at night asking for Kozo's At night? Yeah! If I'd have that she would be glad had knocked her sis , sisters into the garden and didn't know she was there! And they got are the kids alive? Yeah she'd left the other three in at home. And the one who was driving the car? Oh yeah, they're alright! You know the South Avenue ? You know the South Avenue ? Yeah. That was right on that corner it had been Oh that it went they were racing like that, and a car come that way, so went that way Yep. and went straight through the garden and all the the time and all that he'd spent and he went straight just through the garden and knocked her. Went past the garden, they didn't find her for thirty minutes the little girl! Poor sods! But the mother Bloody hell! hit the front of the car and she went that way, and she finished up in the hedge just so that they found her but she was unconscious. ? Erm and what were th , and the boys, they've got drivers have they? Oh yeah. And then they'll give one Well of them a ticking off and Oh they'll just get the back of their hand slapped! few days in borstal, whatever! That's right, that's it innit! It's awful! It's crazy innit! The world's all topsy turvy! It is awful! But no one cares about it! But they thought it were Wendy's daughter! And they went up and asked Wendy for photos . Yeah. So I mean yo , you just mind your own business you get killed!. They were out walking the dog! That's what I say you . Half past nine at bloody night! Well I saw these skid marks tonight, and I thought well how I didn't realise, until I suddenly realised what had happened that someone Yeah. you know? Yeah. Driven up the dead end and gone zonk, zonk, like that! What was it? It was erm erm, a turbo. An X R three turbo. On the . I expect they were only a pair of kids! And they was yeah, one was only twenty! Passed their first driving test! One was eighteen, one was twenty! They ought to make it so that they don't have a car that goes above twenty five mile an hour I reckon! Too right! They don't much! Well they tried them on motorbikes didn't they? Well their forty nine cc's are not meant to do more than thirty Mm. but Yeah you were saying. Yeah, you know Joe had a a bump in his car erm on his front left side? Yeah. Maureen was telling me today that erm he erm too , she took it to the garage and there was two bills laying on the table, one were for two hundred and sixty odd and were four hundred and seventy some odd Yeah. so she said I thought to myself when I went in I hope the two hundred pound one's mine, Joe'll go mad if it's over four hundred! She said and he picked them up and put them both together and it was seven hundred and odd she had to pay out, for her car! Bloody hell! Yeah, and that wa , she said well it's an insurance job she said well it don't matter, you stand the first hundred pound and then erm then the VAT so she said I dread to think what the price of the job were on the insurance! So she said shall I get any of that back? She said only get about seventy pound back, which is the VAT. That's a lot of money innit? And she all an and she were also telling me that erm Ben er two boys at school set about Ben the other night and beat him up! And Joe was so livid when he get in from work he went out and found them and smacked one of these kids nearly to death! Joe, she said Joe could be in trouble, I said well Yeah. I said it's about time somebody started on these kids I mean the been a television programme this morning about people living in their homes afraid of going out because they're getting molested and and robbed, and one thing and another! About time they started doing something about it! They don't you know who they're looking for? Those people who parking on double yellow lines! Mm. So I say it's a bit bit al bit silly innit really! We enjoyed erm we enjoyed our walk though this afternoon it's beautiful down Ringstead there's lo , some beautiful, there was a heron and some swans oh lo , hundreds of ducks! And erm Down by the river, turn right at canal. Yeah, the one that lays near Addington Road Yeah. You know which one I mean? Aha. You've for part of the walk, you walk right along the Addington Road along just inside the Addington Road where the bridge is, do you know where the bridge is? Well that's the canal, that's the lake where we walk round. Maureen thoroughly enjoyed it, she said I said do you come along here on your own? She said, no, no she said I wouldn't come on my own and she said there's, it's too desolate! I said well I I don't mind a walk. So who you playing tonight? Leicester. Mothercare or Boots and Yeah. things like that. And these I couldn't get up this morning thought about . Yeah So I rang mine in Wellingborough Yeah Come on Benjy! Come on! Good boy! Nothing there? No. Just the same as, see there's so many out of work the amount of people that are going for the jobs, there's so many of them they erm they're all got some sort of experience, even if it's just doing a a week. Yeah. So I think I've gotta just get in and get my erm head down and and do some sort of home training Yeah. and er as I say, this woman at this Department of Health, where I'm going tomorrow she'll probably get me in contact with erm er people that'll help me to do the bits that I need. Yeah yeah. Just training that's I mean yo all. it can't take you that long to learn to lift somebody properly! Cor even if it takes you three days! But er Yeah if you have to learn how to do something properly, there's a right way and a wrong way . That's right. just every now and then minimum wages Yeah. Come on, Benjy ! I think there is a multi-storey adjoining the Grosvenor Centre. But that's not the one cos you have to come out of there and cross over. I think the one on the Grosvenor Centre is erm you know where the big bus station is? Yeah. I think it's along side that, behind that remember we got in the wrong lane one day and we Yeah. had to go round. Had to go round again. Looks as if old and Annie are busting up dunnit? like the sea isn't she? Yeah. Maureen was saying today she dreads if Kinnock gets in! And you know you couldn't help but , it were lovely! They had some lovely records! And er anyway he come and ask me for a dance he did he goes, I'm not much of dancer we did that one you know, what they call it? Ninety five balloons? No, we did the , but this one where you go something barn dance innit? It's a sort of a, a barn dance . Anyway, I did it with him you know and he said, sorry that weren't long enough, he said what's your telephone number ! Cos he's, he's on his own, you know? I said oh I'm not gonna give you my telephone number after the things I've been hearing about you! Gotta have a new organ and all this ! He said he didn't half sound good didn't it, he said! What I'm gonna have done to my organ! We have a real laugh you see,he's such a queer bloke and all! He danced like a bloody elephant! Did ta , Katy take her organ with her? Yeah. Did she? When she went? likes his job better than that other one. Mm which job? He's got a new job working on Is he? working on a fish and chip van, he absolutely loves it! Where? pedals over in the morning on Michael's bike and comes home at eight o'clock at, half past eight at night. Who's that for? Young lad that started last month he's doing Oh! ever so well, they go all round the old erm villages wa erm Weemington and eighty pound a week he gets! Yeah. That's nearly twice as much ! Does he? Oh! And he can keep any tip, any tips And tips. that he can ge , that he gets, he can keep. work days as well? He just they, he works eleven o'clock in the morning till eight at night. That's alright innit? Yeah. And you can eat as much as as you want. Yeah. Can you? Yeah. Fish and chip only two young lads he said yesterday they didn't do no good at all, he said so this mor , ah? No, the first day He gets his money regardless ? Yeah. He said the first day I went, I, I never sold anything except a couple of por a bit dubious, so he cooked half a dozen sausages, one bit of fish and did a few chips and said I bet we'll be sitting here all day well every bugger come for fish and chips, hadn't got none had they! Oh! Well he said tha , they were cooking it on like on site on the caravan site, he said an ,an , and you know, they got out of this caravan and then Where does he go then? All round the villages . Does he , does he go round the the works? Yeah. Oh. Yeah cos they only took a hundred and something, but he said if I take about a hundred and something pound a day It's a pity he don't go and do that it's a pity he can't drive and go and do that Well like I said to him that milk round He cos I mean you're erm he's getting they pay sixty pound, I mean that This bloke says he wants four or five other vans by the end of next year and he says if you can get your driving lessons all done and passed he says you can take a van out on your own and have someone working under you I'd, like you work under me. Yeh. He says, you know, you've got everything to work for. He's only a young lad and all, he for my dinner he said don't . Well I said but what whatever happens you mustn't take any money! He said, I won't.. And I said the thing is, she'll pick him up off the floor or she'll pick him up out the basket and say if you don't give me some money for some drugs I'll chuck him on the floor! Then that'll be him dead then won't it! I said if that's all you care about your baby well Did you tell her you'd rather have him yourself did you Yeah yeah. and what she say? Joy, Joy told her that. I told her it I says she don't wanna lose this child, I said if the worst comes to the worst she'll have it herself. Right, and I just said to her, we will know the outcome of it won't we? Where she is and what she's doing, you wouldn't just sort of, take her off and No. we wouldn't know? She said oh no, we'll come back to you. I don't care as long as they know them so that somebody else has got some responsibility, she said I just can't be getting away with it and and, and erm being irresponsible. She's probably picking one with Wendy, but she's picked the wrong one with me cos I know too many loop holes! I had all this before with rights. Oh no! Cos she won't really want that. Benjy! Cor look, it makes all that nail right off, it don't half bloody hurt! you pushed it back a bit hard I expect. Had a bloody gut full with her! Benjamin ! Oh my baby! You're a pain in the whistle! Pain in the whistle! Pain in the whistle! They went up there like a couple of out of a gun, when I opened the door! You're all sticky again, and look at you! Eargh! You're supposed to be a little picture book! He says well that's up to you! But he couldn't care less ! I'm gonna stop you from pi , ay! Excuse me! Ay! I'm gonna stop you from going out and playing in the muck! And the mud! He says, oh shut up! You're not you know! Oh he's pretty! Do you know he ain't been sick since I cut that me hair from round his mouth. Ain't he? No. No. I'm sure them long hairs, get them round his mouth, I'm sure they got in his mouth when he was sleeping, cos he always sleeps on his back Yeah, and they get in his throat. and they got in his throat and he couldn't get up And made him sick. and it were making him bad. Ah, I should keep them cut right down then. I was saying to Maureen, me and Maureen took them round Lakes yesterday Yeah. and he he saw this dike this dike and he went straight in, he Oh! thought it were road he put all four in, and he went down, up to he and he were like this in the water I had to go down the bank I grabbed hold of him in the middle of his back, just turfed him out. I just grabbed hold of him like this and then straight out the water! Silly fool! I said I don't know what he'd do cos Reakstead Lake's deep! I hadn't been over there. Yeah. Yeah. you see them, they get in the mud and they can't get out! Ya. What're you doing any way? Got lovely ain't he? Ay? .Well I expect we ought to go over, do some work got you a loaf, but I didn't get nothing else, if we just pop round by Swiss Bakery. No, I'll go around the one way system. I've got some make some. Did you see them things I bought this morning? Oh I won't be able to get it for the following day. what's her name . Bet she . Nothing else. How much do you think? Don't know. Ten ten pounds fifty. Six ninety nine. Where from? I got myself a pair of white jogging trousers, ooh they're large! Two ninety, ninety nine. Well you want them big really don't you? So I bought some black plastic bags fifty pence. Two sets of pillow cases Yeah. for a pound each look! They're nice them. Yeah. They are alright aren't they ? Yeah. I quite like them. They got quilts they got Yeah, it's nice. quilts and pillows for one nine, one ninety nine for a quilt, nine ninety nine for a twelve point five tog quilt. Yeah. How much twelve ninety? Twelve nine ninety nine for a twelve tog. Where's that at then? This shop that's shutting What double? down. Double size? Yeah I think they're double. Oh. That one I bought for Je that bed that for twelve ninety nine for . What for? Not they got some nice ones in there for that. I think we're gonna go back to blankets. You ought to have a quilt for the summer. Yeah I've got one you see but I've put been on it . isn't that nice, they've got them in all colours! Yeah. Every colour you can Yeah. think of! a yellow . They have, everything I have is pink! Yes. And I've washed Got the yellow in a set. washed my pink one yet. and erm it's gone all so , it's, it was old and it was er Yeah it's alright. Yeah. Six ninety nine! I tell you our night really told you One night I was standing, we were getting ready to go out to do a show and I was ironing in the kitchen and it were about six o'clock at night and all of a sudden Rudy come flying at me like this all over me, I thought Christ not this time of bleeding night ! You know what I thought! I said what's going on? And I were on fire from head to foot! My iron had blown, you know whe where the plug, plug comes Yeah. out, it had blown and a flash had gone onto my cotton dressing gown my towelling Set light dressing gown and it had just gone straight up and the flame And you didn't know? I didn't know, I was stood there ironing! I was on fire from head to foot! Said I Then you went and set your blanket on fire one night and the fire engine out didn't you? No we never got the fire engine out we just er we just when we got when we got home we sat eating we'd got home from a show then and we were sat eating supper, and it were about half past three in the morning and we sat talking, I said to Rudy I'm sure I can smell burning! He said no! Well I said, I can. And we went all round the bed and we went all round outside, we went all through the back smelt outside Jane's door in case she'd she were on fire couldn't find nothing, sat down and read, he said it's cos the telly's on and I expect it's damp and it's you know Yeah. smelling. Went to get in the bed and as Rudy pulled the quilt off the smoke gushed out ! And when we looked it all er all, it had gone all the way through the mattress Through the mattress. almost through, it just Yeah. starting a little brown smoulder mark it were like that all the through the electric blanket of course all the through the the sheets all through the sheets and blankets and it had just coming through the top counterpane we used have a Yeah. what do you call it? Erm Tor ,too , no, what do you call them? Twill. Them twilly things like Yeah. Ca , erm what do you call them? Like the one with the rib through it? Yeah. Chenille I think. Yeah no Erm what do you call them? Well they're not called Coconut Chenille? No. No. Begins with W dunnit? Erm oh God! Anyway, I never thought, I just run out the kitchen and got we switched the electric off, and I just got four buckets of water and chucked it on the bed and then said to Rudy, you know what, we haven't got nowhere to sleep now ! No! So we turned the mattress over and got in bed ! What, in the water? In the water! Yeah. Just got in, well it weren't, it hadn't gone right the way through, we just turned it over and chu , chucked the sheets and blankets back on once they'd stopped smouldering and got back on it! Slept on the top of all these filthy things! It were Gill that had the fire brigade up that night weren't it? Yeah. When she set her bed alight. She said all the were up talking weren't they? Yeah till four in the morning, she put Yeah. her blanket on about ten . Playing cards weren't they? Put the blanket on, and she said And went we don't want the fire brigade we only want one man to come up ! Yeah. And she had the When they bloody firemen all come up to the bed ! They looked at her all when they pulled her sheets and blankets all back, the whole mattress is all a, all glowing fire yeah. All on fire! Yeah. She said we hadn't even The whole lot! to take it over. No! They'll obviously say can you keep it covered. Course they will. As soon as you let the air in Oh yeah! yeah. I got in my bed the other night it were red hot, I thought ooh God I mustn't put it on too early, you know! It's alright if you remember but Why do you put it on that early? Well I put it on early and then somebody will have to come . Yeah. you. You see that was supposed to be . Yes ! Yeah. But now, even on television, they say you and me! You and me. Yeah, oh yeah! But I mean really the the grammar is you and I! Yeah ! And every time I hear it, I think well I didn't know I was taught to say you and me. No, no Auntie Annie used to be a stickler on You and I. how we talked! Yeah. You know ? Yeah I know. Mind you, I, I dunno I, I mean It's only a little thing but it's shows you how everything's changed Mm. Well is it because to do with etiquette do you think? Well no it's No, it's just Well it's like , but it, you always say oh it's Mr and Mrs, you don't say Yes. you don't say it's Mrs and Mr. No. No. No. But do you? No. Never write on No. an envelope, Mrs and Mr! No, I suppose Mr So we always Yeah. put the Mr first. Yeah, esquire. Yeah esquire. always used to put something Thank you. Hello. What can we do for you today? Er well, I've had a sore throat. It's about three weeks now. The er not a sore throat th you know, it's there for a couple of days and then it kind of eases off, I think it's getting better and then the next day it's as bad as ever. As bad as ever. This morning I can kind of feel it, but last night it was as if I was when I swallowed there was a big lump. Like a lump at the back? Erm Mm. . Stick your tongue out. Oh, aye,a way down, see just in through there? Aha. Down the sides there, not up beside your tonsils. It's a way down the back. Right. And see that wee thing that hangs down the back? That's what Aha. And it's rubbing up against your tongue. Aye. That's what you're feeling . But I didn't feel it as bad this morning No. That's right. Oh no. Aye.. up here and I, I've been keeping putting it off and putting it off. It, it comes back into it, some, some nights it's quite good and then other nights it feels all Aye. It's dry and it feels like Ah, aye, I'm not in the morning. I've a right cough as well and a tickle and That's . what I'm bringing up. It's Aye. filthy. You have trouble with your sinuses at all? Erm aye, I can do. Choke. Kind of choke down Kind of choke down. again. It might well be coming I've from there. See I've had a couple of colds the past few months and then you think, well that's me, I'm getting better. And then the next morning I'm up I feel as I was going to take it again. It feels all choked up again. Aye. Right. Er it sounds as though it might well be stuck in your sinuses here and this stuff's running down the back Mhm. and ca la landing in the back of your throat here. Er you're what,? Aye. Three. Now, I've given you some antibiotics. They're to take during the day. And I've given you special stuff for nighttime to keep the back of your throat clear at night. Because that's half the battle if you can keep nights, I didn't have a decent night's sleep just for the tickle you know, the . That's right, the continual it's this continual stuff running down the back that goes for it. Mhm. Oops! There we are. Right, Thanks Doctor. Mrs . I wonder if I could show you a mole? I've got, I feel as if it's getting and I don't know if it's erm to be I've had it for years and never bothered. Aye, I know but they change. Let's look. Yeah. It's starting to get black at one side alright You see I cannot not see it No. but I just felt it Right. something's up. I'm not scratching it because I can't scratch it but No. I'm worried about it. Yeah. Well I think you better get this seen to. It's, there's a tiny wee corner at the top there where the colour's changing. Is it? And there's another wee bit there. Aye. Get it off. Right. Get it off. I've been going to come up about it and g Aye. It's, och aye, it's one of these things. Do you think it I've had it for all this time, I hope. Yeah. Well it wouldn't make any difference. Now, all I need for you to go and see the skin specialist and get it in the bucket and then there's Right. no worry about it. Okay then. Right. Okay Alison. Thanks a lot. Right. Cheerio now. Bye. Are you alright yourself? Yeah. Yeah. It's no no problem . it's just typical isn't it ? That's it. Right. Thanks. Cheerio now. Cheerio. Letter to District Hospital,thirty two. Dear Doctor, this woman has a mole on her right upper arm. She tells me that this has recently become quite itchy, and when there appear to be one or two areas that have er become discoloured darker than, than the main part of the mole. I appointment to removal and would be grateful for your advice . Yours sincerely. And could you mark that one very urgent, please. We really are waiting for some key data on how and so on which we shan't know until March so I think that is going to condition our er next consideration but your comment on that. Very very very briefly Chairman, erm first of all you can see in paragraph two point three and you see the matter that's being erm the subject of discussion previously erm there wasn't to be an issues report as such, but er Stragg itself the advisory group did feel that it would be useful that er er a leaflet be prepared and distributed erm you I don't think Chairman would have seen it, but hot off the presses is being erm with us this morning er an an and only delivered this morning are some copies of th the leaflet that we have now erm prepared er you will have seen that in draft form Chairman and members of Strang will have seen that draft form so er both Stragg members and other members of the Committee if they would like to take a copy away with them, that there are a number here, but they will be er given wide distribution later on. These copies are staple check and you are the one which you've gone back for apply erm I, I'll with that one. And there's some homework in it. There is some, there is some homework. Erm prin principally for, for those outside the County Council that is the erm all responses would be very welcome. There er erm other er matter that er erm I er wanted to mention erm if only to get the word sustainability on to the tape that is being recorded on the seems that one of th the key areas that we are looking at and er will incorporate in the structure plan is sustainability. That's been er er a matter which has been erm discussed er at some length by Stragg as has the topic of er house building and the the problems of er capacity for er new house instruction and other development within the, the Council but a number of erm matters er not least of which has been er the departure of two key members of staff during the period er there has er I'm afraid been a degree of slippage and the original programme that we have put to you and which you agreed which we said at the time was ambitious er is already er showing signs of stress and it looks now I'm afraid that it will not be er in the early part of the summer that the structure plan in draft form will be available and ready to be approved for consultation purposes, but towards the end of the summer and er er into the early autumn. Er that is something which is er a matter of great regret, but because of circumstances er unfortunately is the case and something that we must er address. We will do what we can to er speed things and to catch up. Yes, Neil? One very quick point, sorry erm I don't want to sound as if I feel I can but er I welcome your comment at the beginning the condition be be left out on what's going on because I thought this was actually the key function of this committee and I mean I see these are being decision has been taken. Erm I see so I'm not really will make sure that erm that we are kept in touch so that we are not so far down the track but they can't be reversed committee as a whole Absolutely. Absolutely I was aware that Graham was very anxious to be involved in this process, er for example he wrote me a note and I think other members and it's because of those, of those notes that I was anxious that we should inform them of what we were up to and if you want to share any of the papers or agendas please ask. Er really do value inputs Chairman I, yes I, I mean that I or attend I understand an and appreciate wh what you're saying and most grateful to you for that, I think wha what you're, Neil is saying is is that with we must make sure the time, that this main strategic planning he has to look at, this very important issue, allows sufficient time for mature consideration Yes. debate and, and possibly change. I i it may not be so, but it may be so Yes. and, and I'm sure that you're aware of that feeling amongst all members that you would reflect this in the amount of time available Yes. for that debate and discussion. Very important. It's particularly important because I, I think that these er strategic plans aren't being terribly well received in the D O E and they will only succeed if there is er solid agreement to present. I think Berkshire had a very rough ride and others too and they're saying exactly the sorts of things that are being said in this county and it may be the last strategic plan on the county too, so it's a very important document. Right so we note this report. Thank you. Item eleven one er I have to say that if you want to discuss item eleven two, the Mid Sussex District Local Plan, I will have to er I shall have to er withdraw and ask er Cliff to chair the meeting. If er if you don't mind. Do, do members want to discuss the Mid Sussex Plan? Erm i it's a very small point it's a question more than anything else erm Chairman, rather than a debate, but th there are one or two obviously important issues there, particularly the highway side and I Well I'm happy to withdraw. But, but should we deal with the first No problem Why don't you take this item. Right okay, well it I don't know I'll go into all to do with that one first Right, right, right. But I mustn't blot my copy book. Right. Shall I, shall I start on eleven ? Please Chairman, if, if I may and it is just basically to look at the recommendation and wonder you know perhaps if we've got it the right way round er that's all, where we're saying er there are certain things still outstanding wh which we would need to re-relate before er issuing er general conformity notices I understand b but we're almost taking that they're going to do that without any doubt, now I don't know maybe there are things not said in this report which are well understood, but and members of are quite happy to accept erm er s some more more changes to, to the local plan so that it does conform with with the structure plan, but I just wondered whether round the wrong way. Whether we should be saying and saying District Council be requested to amend the local plan as suggested in paragraph two four two nine five and then nu number two would be there adding a few words to to the original number one. On confirmation of District Council's agreement a statement of general conformity and in business you don't sort of give your position away, erm I, I'm pleased to tell you that the Planning Officer agrees with you. Oh, oh I I, I certainly certainly from the chair I would agree. Chairman, may I'm sorry to, to, to question that erm I'm sorry Th there, there is a, there is a problem erm in that the invitation from Aida in this case to er issue a statement in general conformity erm confers on, on this committee the opportunity only to withhold that statement if there are elements of plan which significantly fall outside for one reason or other the, the terms of the structure plan and the points that have been mentioned in the er in paragraphs two point four to two point nine in, in er your officer's views er are not such that the er plan is er unable to be afforded that statement of general conformity. The points in two point four to two point nine are nevertheless important and we would er I would strongly recommend that you endorse the erm making of those points to Aida If they then don't take those points on board, you would have the opportunity when the plan is, is finally put on deposit of making a formal objection to the plan on the basis that we disagree with that particular wording, but I have here th th th the strong expectation that Aida will take on board those small points anyway and it is just a matter therefore o of making minor changes, but unfortunately the conformity issue is, is a, is a rather different one whether we are er in er er er as an authority in agreement with what Aida is saying in their plan. Apologize for misleading. Chairman and I, I still stick to wh what I said that I think that we ought to to reverse and, and p put two to number one erm er and with the addition of those words, because I, I, I take all the planning and what the officer is saying, but I mean don't you think it makes more sense from our point of view than we realize. Ch Chairman I, I, I, I would agree with Mr that we might er successfully change the order, but we can't er and shouldn't make it a condition of issuing that statement of conformity that Aida have done those things. They may not do them and we could still issue, we would still have to issue the statements of general conformity. There would then be other means however for us to pursue our our concerns that haven't we know er are moving into a future speculative situation, but if they're not taken up we have other means of pursuing those, but they wouldn't affect the the conformity issue. It seems as if it's a legal question I hear from Well yes, yes in terms it sounds mos most confusing compared with a straightforward business world but if, if, if the campaign are saying that it's got to be this way for legal reasons they're not prepared to accept it. That's our advice I'm sorry. Ch Chairman, I, I, I certainly would er report to John th that is the correct interpretation . Perhaps we could minute Mr 's point, just to make him happy. Well I, I mean he's being technical here as well Chairman. I shall be getting a copy of this tape. Right. Chairman? Mr . Yes, sorry. Sorry, just er to clarify was happy about er reversing the orders of these, provided we did not amend what is currently present er item one. Yes he's saying a com condition of er general conformity that the general conformity is apparently er met by this er what's being done and I think general conformity, I, I don't know I'm guessing, relates to the housing commitment of a broad strategic equivalent, is that the point? Yes Chairman i it relates to the the body of the policies in the structure plan and if Aida's plan generally conforms then we must er issue a statement of general conformity er however if there is a, a problem that we've had for example about the wording of the reference to the erm East Worthing access road, then although that it's quite proper for this committee to be concerned about that wording and ultimately possibly even to object to the plan on the basis of the wording, it doesn't affect the extent to which the plan conforms or doesn't conform with the structure plan overall. Does that help? Y y yes I mean to clear this whole matter up Chairman w wo would it be fair if, if I moved perhaps tha that erm erm little one should become little two and little two should probably become little one and leave it at that? I mean would that satisfy That, that that would be perfectly acceptable. All logical orders. Er Chairman I'm perhaps I could also suggest that we change the word suggested erm because that i i it, perhaps you are looking for something slightly stronger erm er so it could just say in accordance with paragraphs two four to two nine or the points made in paragraph two point Mm. Right. I am now going into and you're going to take the chair for this . Well I hope it won't be a is that alright ? No, it's alright. Right turning to item eleven two Mid Sussex District Local County. That all agreed? I mean yes er as I said earlier on it's just a question for for just a bit more obviously in the readings report th there is there is concern naturally with the by-passes in paragraph two five I mean I haven't had a chance to sort of looking up yet, and I'd by grateful for County Executive's advice on that and I thought we as a County Council had agreed a line erm for a by-pass through the West Sussex portion at least. Therefore i if we, if he done that then that paragraph would seem to be slightly and the second point was really to ask if there was any further update on the progress in terms of negotiations in Surrey and East Sussex er in terms of this erm particular by-pass and I know that Mr in particular has been concerned with negotiations and Mrs also erm Mrs is not here therefore as Mr could advise me for us o of where we're at really,so that we fully understand because obviously the the line of the by-pass is very important so far as any further development is is concerned. So er in regard to er th the quote there has been no agreement on the line, that refers to the fact that agreement has to be m erm come about with the actual erm East Sussex County Council and Surrey County Council and that er although a joint meeting of Planning and Highways what, some two years ago, took a view as to the line, that hasn't actually meant that there is agreement at this stage where the line can be implemented and I would have thought that's what that refers to. I, I, I can answer that Well I, I don't know whether I should make a or If I may erm we, we, we, we did attend er er er a briefing and myself and James , unfortunately Margaret was unable to be present on that day, although I think she's had a separate briefing or there is a separate briefing being proposed. There is a partial line on the map which I think this Council agreed before my time but that is not a line which could be implemented because it starts from nowhere and goes to nowhere and we are still I believe in, in, in limbo so far as the exact route which might be proposed either the northern or the southern end. I didn't want to tread on your toes Mr , but I, I gather that, that is the situation I think. That that's just I would have said Chairman anyway I would have probably have taken I, I,I, if I may go on an and er make some other comments on it i is that appropriate or should I wait for that are we still talking about the by-pass? Erm I mean I was just finding myself expressing the views that er given the dramatic change in the composition of the County Council since the election, I would have thought something as major as the East Grinstead by-pass would need to be considered by the new council anyway and er I think it would be perhaps er assuming too much er to believe that the present council would follow the line of the previous council that's only er a personal expression. If I may come back Mr Chairman an and er express a view on behalf of Darcy . She's very concerned and the present line partial though it be, represents a a blight situation on that, on the, on potential er occupants of that line and certainly erm I find myself more in in er agreement with Darcy's views than I do with the other two councillors of East Grinstead, that's not er not secret No, no no by any manner of means, because they represent the of the town. I find myself rather like the old shell man having to look both ways at once, because part of my division is is town and part of it is country and they have very different views about the by-pass erm Yes, could I just you know Sure I mean because obviously this is inflation particularly with the new members who are not involved in in all the hurly-burly those two, two three years ago, but er in fact as I recall it I think it was a Liberal Democrat proposal that we should agree this particular line. It was an East Grinstead er Mrs Er indeed. And and, and I mean all I'd say is I know it's an issue geared to hearts too and this will be explained, so I just before And it's not not unobserved. I think you will recall Mr my my views on the East Grinstead by-pass were not the same as those I, I, I'm bitterly disappointed recollection. Erm I wonder wonder Chairman whether i i in order to, to focus on on the erm issue that arises as a result of this an and whilst Mr is absolutely right to, to, to question the status of the by-pass and Mr has has given me the the answer. What it actually means erm is that er there is unlikely to be a by-pass for some time, but in effect that would be likely to be the case anyway, one because of the cost of the by-pass overall and secondly because of the erm position with regard to other aspects of the roads programme and the level of T S G that we are currently receiving er even if there was an agreed line as of today erm bearing in mind the th the other things that have happened in the roads programme, it still would be unlikely that the by-pass would be er programmed in such a way that it would allow housing or other development to take place in East Grinstead within either the structure plan period or the local plan period and hence the points that then er that the report moves on to erm come into play. Could I then come to the body of the report, rather than the East Grinstead by-pass, which I, I, I I agree is, is pertinent erm I was, I read this a couple of times because I was a bit confused about the rather if I may say so convoluted argument that was in it erm I think I understand the argument that the erm is that the Mid Sussex District Council have asked for advice and the recommendation is that advice . er on the other hand er the arguments inside the er document seem to suggest that a a certificate of, of conformo conformalities conformity erm could be issued er within the terms of the, the numbers specified because on the case of the housing the numbers are rather small and in the case of the er business floor space there, they're probably even less significant erm and I wondered why that wasn't put in the recommendation. I know the recommendation actually erm does answer the request for advice that was outlined in er two point one and maybe that's why the recommendation is couched as it is. We could of, we, could we not have had a statement that er er er erm a certificate of conformity could be issued or will be issued? Chairman it's er an excellent question an an and I, I, I'm hesitating in giving er an an off the cuff answer, but the first of all we weren't actually asked to issue a statement of conformity at this stage I take that point and it would be wrong for us to consider it in that form. The real er difficulty is that we at this stage don't actually know what's going to be in the local plan and we believe and this is what erm Mid Sussex District Council are suggesting, is that it will be an amalgamation of the current separate local plans which cover their area, but there may well be some changes erm and until we see the thing as a whole we don't know what it will say, moreover erm there may be elements outside the East Grinstead housing and business allocation which erm from another point of view might lead to a withholding of the statement of conformity. So in fact a recommendation was carefully constructed to allow y your committee the opportunity of, of questioning other elements of the plan at the time at which that is put to us. I, I, I accept that completely. Thank you. Er Mr ? Yeah, hmm? Thank you Chairman. Just to say that erm we're very keen to see that the Mid Sussex Council has come to the county and asked for guidance and I'm very pleased also with the response that is er proposed back to them. There's tremendous concern within the area erm at the targets that have been set for house building and in particular for er industrial space erm I think office space is now coming back into more of an equilibrium situation, but erm I'm very pleased to see that er with these proposals as they stand, we would have no difficulties in approving their, the plan. Thank you. Mr ? I'm not commenting still not commenting on local issues, but I mean I quite see that acceptable to Mid Sussex and I'm not doubting the recommendation but erm we've actually sixty three thousand right sixty three thousand square metres and the other councils took the attitude that we would be nowhere near achieving structure plan and I find myself absolutely clearly what happened in other comebacks they were only going to produce three, two thirds or three quarters of your It is an important Chairman and a very good question and erm, but there isn't a straightforward answer that would apply to every situation. Th the reality is that elsewhere in West Sussex erm the business allocations are erm reasonably generous or indeed slightly over generous and er therefore er overall the concern i is very much reduced erm but it might also be just worth mentioning that erm although er there is clearly an opportunity for this committee, this planning authority, the strategic planning authority to, to question figures of this nature and to challenge local plans if they are significantly adrift erm that has to be done in the context of the the local plan enquiry by er in the form of an objection almost and past experience has been that the inspectors and the Secretary of State have allowed a certain amount of leeway depending on the erm proportional er deviation from erm th the figures that were in the structure plan and depending on what is happening elsewhere and on the state of the economy and whilst it would be something which erm it was possible to prepare a case for erm i it is o on, on the balance of erm er the various things that are, that are taking place in West Sussex that the recommendation i is, is put to you that and it seems to be the reasonable course of action, particularly bearing in mind the downturn in, in er erm the er business activity and the er amount of developments taking place. It seems to be the reasonable approach to adopt, although it will vary from time to time and from place to place and it is a question of of balancing a number of factors. Well Mrs wants to come in and then Chairman, er if I might I was going to refer again to the care carefully worded recommendation which doesn't actually mention the level of erm it simply mentions erm er a modest extent of under provision because clearly it says elsewhere in the report at two ten that it's not yet known whether there will be opportunities elsewhere, so that's a particular shortfall in provision to be made up. I would feel very happy that there was an under, under provision if I, if I refer to the agenda item twelve, where it says if I read it right that there is twenty three point six percent industrial floor space unoccupied at present and I would have thought it was crazy to start er erm coming up and building even more cos it will just put that figure up will it not? This is a wrong Yeah but that's a quarter of that, that's a quarter unoccupied. I mean I do actually that we talk a lot about sustainability floor space . Anyway, I don't want to make a big issue about this, I just want to ask . Can we approve recommendation then? We do. Thank you. We'll go and retrieve the Chairman. Oh are you gonna do it? D do we now move on to item twelve the General Report? I've received notice that Neil wishes to er raise er er a matter which concerns two parts of this report. Neil? Really I think erm there are just two four and two six which I'm just interested in and the whole question I find very difficult to erm I mean it's really just a question as the these are mentioned as items left hanging in the air. , rustling of papers in background and whispering) I think it's fair to say that know more about it than I do, but there has been a High Court case recently which has, seems to have er torpedoed the er prospect of er including affordable housing in new housing deals, so I'm informed. You know more about it than I do Chairman. Well I, I took the liberty of the Lord Lieutenant's appointed me to something called the Sussex Rural Options Land Bank and I brought you a copy of the leaflet, having notice of your question and I did ask the officer who deals with this in the Sussex Rural Community Council if he could give me the latest score on housing I thought that the news was bad from what he had said, but having said that, I mean every effort is being made to deal with the issues you raise in this council which is now chaired by Peter . Anyway erm I think we totally support the thrust of what you're asking about and I was asked to make a special appeal to County Council to see whether they could assist with this recently established Rural Options Land Bank, the purpose of which is rather extraordinary, but I mean it is defined landowners who have a philanthropic bent to provide the land to do something about the very problem you've raised. So far there are twenty sites being investigated. I mean one of the problems and also perhaps losing benefit of housing . I mean I personally think that . So it seems to be a sort of a bit of an insoluble problem, but it er I, I just . I've just read the enquiry and the public dealing with these issues and the D O E has rejected rentable housing as a solution to affordable housing. I think I'm right in saying that. I, I, I think Chairman that on the, the case to which you refer as, as I recollect it was very much on the specific wording of the er restriction which erm was found to fail, because it applied to a number of houses and not to a specific property and er clearly care will have to be given by the districts that happens in imposing conditions to make sure that it will erm appertain to each individual property within a development so that the occupancy condition can be can be informed. I think we can't do justice to the point you've raised in the time at our disposal, but it is a very important issue. I have one suggestion,wh whether you would like to pursue the matter further, but I did ask Frederick whether he could brief you more fully. He is over in Lewes unfortunately, but he did offer so to do, er which I think would you know put you in a more informed position to pursue the matter with this committee. I shall certainly do what I can to advance the matter, but I hesitate to say what about the paper, because I don't think it is an easy thing to cover in a paper. Perhaps we have to get it into the erm strategy agenda again I mean we we have had a go at it, but probably inadequately. Chairman can I er suggest to these results of course over a period and I'd like to see I'm pessimistic myself. I, I think Chairman that as, as we come out of the recession an and th that the overall erm level er quantity of development taking place increases, then we are almost bound to see perhaps more affordable housing erm in absolute terms, although I don't see any opportunity of there being a a major hiccup in proportional terms, so I, I, like you, I think I remain er pessimistic er regarding the, the, the overview, although we might see er a turning up of the er of the graph having been bumping along the bottom for a little time a little while. Yes, thank you Chairman. Obviously it is a very involved complex subject, but the fact is the situation is changing day by day. Er most of the houses that are provided rent are provided by local authorities, but there again you've got a very serious change in situation when the government are looking to privatize council houses. I mean we can't go into the private market and expect them or asking them to provide houses erm affordable houses as I say the question is what's an affordable house, who's got the money to buy the house I would presume, but obviously we know the situation is it's the lower rent of market, the lower income groups and the unemployed that are suffering very much reasonable accommodation at a rent or at a price they can afford and I reckon this is what hopefully the government was after to say whether we'll put in our policy and hope that we can get things . Unfortunately they say one thing, but they do exactly the opposite and whereas local authorities are in a position to in the main to provide rental accommodation, the government are stopping them. So I think you know it is a subject that we should, probably should go on to, to discuss it in more detail, but I'm really concerned because I think the policies government authorities were even accepting. I'm not gonna ask for the problems of the homeless people that we've got in this country . I have to say there was one piece information I picked up yesterday asking and we're talking about the rural areas I think in this discussion, the rural viability, rather then er urban. I was told that the money that was threatened for housing associations which was an important element in structure, the government has in fact included it in the forthcoming budget, so that is encouraging, that aspect of it. I think Chairman housing association, because the demand was greater . Well the only encouraging initiative that I can speak of for West Sussex is the establishment of the Rural Options Land Bank and er I've undertaken to try and get some county commitment to this and that means some land. I can't see it happening, I mean I've already tried out one idea which hasn't run very fast but if we were solidly behind that, that would be very important for this initiative, we as a county. So I understand it will encourage others and there are some very wealthy landowners for whom this may not be a great strain on their resources. Erm sorry, thank you Chairman. Basically erm I agree with what you say but that the County Council itself of course is a landowner of erm some quite attractive erm areas of land that could be used for below cost housing, but the problem in the past has been that they always had to sell erm at the market price. Precisely. Whereas could be lifted if the County Council itself would become erm a benevolent donor, I'm sure that problems of low cost housing throughout the county. I'm not asking that it transfer its estate, I'm asking that it should make a contribution because it will then show that we're committed to this very important initiative. If you want to get a grasp of what is happening in West Sussex, there is a useful one-page summary in the Housing and Environment the Housing Report which came to us last, at the last meeting. It er has about a list of about thirty erm affordable housing . And I mentioned at the last meeting I think what has actually been said in the erm meeting I could repeat that, but I mean it confirms exactly what you're saying. Available evidence confirms sorry first of all the increase in the provision of affordable dwellings identified by this monitoring survey er is not being maintained, so there is a national problem South East regional problem field and in our own er monitoring report on housing development and population change we say four point seven two available evidence confirms the existence of a social housing problem in West Sussex and surveys studies suggest it is significant and that table on page forty items, gives you the precise er application position erm it is I think erm just . I think that deals with the General Report and now we move into part No, no, no, no thirteen, thirteen approve that one Chairman. Thank you. Er time yes. Yeah, sorry Chairman I must We approved that haven't we? No, no. Fourteen two, erm the great problem is it's easier to get if an afternoon meeting can finish at a reasonable time, then I can probably but erm I think if you, if you're looking at the clock when home in the evening for a number of reasons it might be then I would this and unless we can sort of put a restricted time on the agenda which is impossible, I can imagine coming down here at two o'clock for the meeting. You see when committees are meeting at two o'clock usually have a much shorter agenda than this committee discussion but to enable to this committee and to do its job properly, I would think we'd be looking where possible to be able to discuss items properly and to get start at a reasonable time like we do . Mr ? it seems to me that often, especially with this committee er start at half ten we get to about half twelve and everyone starts shuffling and think of their lunch and often not so much recently, but in, in, in, over the last five years there have been issues I think it almost left you on because it was so close to lunch, er and people didn't then want to have to break for an hour, hour and a half and then come back, whereas if you start at two fifteen erm I think it's easier to go on till half four, five seems to be to go to this psychological one o'clock barrier, seems to er upset people greatly agitation and er their argument is th th that er that in the afternoon Do other members have a view on this? Could I agree with that can I also suggest that if that happens because erm also at some of these seminars are impossible with meetings because we can, we can try and concentrate on on days where, where ready would actually help the attendance because er On the applications that's quite interesting because the reason the applications are moved to separate days was because we can work we're having to lunch and then make again We're, we're, we're using the application for doing the Stragg meeting now, we're having amend on normally I think. Well there doesn't seem to be Mr Chairman I, I would support the proposal that it's moved to the afternoon Afternoon on the basis of laziness. I hear, I, I, I think there is a tendency with the County Council but as I discovered as Chairman of Highways that members want to take a greater interest and to have a greater say on the items on the agenda now planning is is not a controversial as, as say highway items, but nevertheless I think there will be times and there will be agendas which will require a great deal of discussion on the individual items and I'm also a great believer bearing in mind comments if it ain't broke, don't bend it. Now it seems to me I accept difficulties f for, for some people, but on the whole it's working quite well and to shuffle it all round again I think would irritate a large number of members and we're irritated by the changes that you made earlier on and I wouldn't wish to bring any down on your your head for the so I'm in favour of leaving things as they are Chairman, er I think you, you, you've done enough, you've caused enough trouble already! I it's, it's very hard when you, when you've, when you're grinding an axe to get the true mood of the meeting. Could I just have a small poll, those who would like to er have S Q as they call it, status quo? That's five Six. Six and moving it to the afternoon yes, it's er a nice question. I think we shall just on the margin have to leave it as it is. Thank you very much for that. Now part two. Can we approve that, is there any problem at all? I must just quickly stress on looking at it very closely last night that only one was in West Sussex. Erm Chairman if There's nothing we can do about that. Sorry Chairman. I if I might say erm after further reviews the County Treasurer has advised that erm he does not need to impose a limit erm i it's the last sentence in paragraph four. Right, thank you. That one is East Sussex for your information . So we accept that Thank you very much and I'm grateful to you, I'm sorry I've gone but it was that general question rightly raised by What number are you dividing by if you ? If I'm halving by ten. The number . Ah, right. Now, that sign which we call in maths, a divide sign or a share sign, doesn't mean halving it, right, it only means halving if you are dividing by what number? No, not quite. Well if I, if I have ten pounds for example and I want to halve it, what would the answer be? half of ten Mhm, five, what number what number have I divided by. ten No not ten, cos you see, ten divided by ten would be one wouldn't it? So If I do this, ten and I halve it and I get five, what number have I divided by? One. No, ten divided by one, I'll tell you is ten. Because you are saying how many ones go into ten. Let me write this down for you, ten divide by one is ten, because you are saying how many ones are in ten and the answer is ten, okay? Now when I said if you halved ten pounds and you get five, what number must go there? Any ideas? five? Then you'd are saying how many fives in ten, the answer is two. We know the answer is five ten divide by two equals five. Good. Two. That's right. Yes. two in there, okay. Now that's called halving by dividing by two, that's halving. But when you see that divide sign, it's not always halving is is it? Were you halving here when we were dividing by what number. So that sign means divide by or a lot of school people talk about sharing by, sharing by, dividing by. Right,so over here then, do you think that's your final answer? Right okay. Erm I wonder if you've remembered the short cut of this. Has anyone ever told you about moving the decimal point? See we've done it all without decimal point on the calculator, and we never done . Right, so we need to really think about all this from scratch don't you, mm, pity the others aren't here actually . Erm right, okay, I'll tell you what, copy down onto there. Put, can you put a heading along there, decimals, decimals, if we can get you understanding this, you can help a few other people. Erm Who are you logged in as? My name. Right. Move down on to the second page then. Oh it's S F O nine, yes. So we select it, now do page down, Danny. Now it's going to the main menu. That'll be all right now. okay? Right,, what we'll do is we'll get you thoroughly understanding this and you might be able to help the others . All right? You want to space this out so space it out. Suppose we've got this decimal here now, can you tell me what have we got two of, what have we got two of? . We've got things like tens, millions, millionths, tenths, tens, what is it that we've got two of. Sorry. Forty-nine. Forty-nine? Why do you say forty-nine? cos there's another one there. Right, we've got forty-nine there haven't we, but here there's a two, okay? Now what is it that we've got two of? Well, let me give you a clue. Erm this here is forty, that's four tens, four tens are forty. They're tens, four tens are forty. What is it that we've got nine of here? Think What is it that we've got er nine of? Nine? Er well I think I'll have to show you . These are ones here, you see that's saying we've got four tens, forty, and then we've got nine ones, so that's how we get forty-nine. Now if we go to the right of the decimal point, are these bigger things or smaller. They're smaller. They're smaller things, good. Now what is it that have got two of? Tens, ones, smaller than ones? Nought. Not nought I can understand why you said nought. half Aah, they're fractions, aren't they. They're fractions. Danny it's just occurred to me because we're tape recording we'd better just stop print just at the moment, we'll just leave that off line we can do it later. Erm . halves Right, now you're thinking it's fractions, tiny, smaller things. Erm but we, we've got to tens and tenths, hundreds and hundredths, thousands and thousandths, so it's not halves, but it's Quarters. No, not quarters. fractions It's a decimal system, it's what we call a decimal system, decimals. It's all centered around tens and tenths, hundreds and hundredths, right, so what's the first fraction that you put here then? Just use ones and zeros, you can't use anything else. Ones and zeros. Ones and zeros. Can't have a quarter, cos there's a four there, can't have a half, cos there's a two there. One. One, but we want a fraction One over what's the bottom number going to be? Nought. Not nought. Ten. Ten. These are tenths, yes. tenths. okay? and then what are these? Getting smaller, but you can only use ones and noughts Nine You can't have a nine, only ones and noughts. Erm Right, you've never, I don't think you been shown this have you really? thousand. Right, good, only can have ones and noughts. Now, if we go on, what would the next one be. How many zeros? Erm One, two, three Five. One, two, three why did you suddenly leap up to five One, two, three, four. Four. Yes, that's right Next one. Right. How do we say these things Hundreds. Hundredths. Hundredths. Yes. This is thousandths, yes. How do we say this one? Ten thousandths. Well done. Now, can you just say it again? Ten Ten thousandths. Yes, you've got to put a th on the end. Ten thousandths. Right. One ten thousandth. And then this one A hundred thousandths Well done, yes, a hundred thousandths. Yes, that's right. And then I haven't got space now, but here you'd have a millionth, six noughts that'd been a million. Right, now that's what a decimal is a decimal is, that's what a decimal is, and there are some people think we should write them like this, or you couldn't, you couldn't do this. It's nice just to see it once, that er really that nine should be written smaller and then that two should be even smaller still, and that three should almost be unreadable because those things are smaller and smaller aren't they, as you go along there, these are getting tinier and tinier. Right now nice and quiet Yes Erm You don't have a lighter by any chance, do you? I'm afraid I don't smoke. No. Sorry. It's all right, I just wanted to see whether this little boy is concussed or not. Oh. He's had a terrific bang on the back of his head and Yes I don't know, that's the old time honoured way of doing it, isn't it? Oh, right Oh has an ambulance been called then? No, he doesn't want to go home. Is he feeling all right? Yes, but it hurts when he turns his head. He's got ever such you know a lump on the back of the head. I think he needs looking at. I've told him to go and sit quietly. Right, how's he up here then. Why is he up here? Well, cos I'm Florence Nightingale. Hah cos I bet, yeah where is he? Danny, come here a minute love. He doesn't want to go home Yeah, I did. Right. Thank you right now a really clever thing then that you should know about is if I want to times that number by ten right. Everything in it will get ten times bigger won't it Right, and this is why the short cut works, because a really clever way of timesing that by ten is to make that number come here, that number come there, this number come here, right, this number come here, and this number come here. We move every number, promote each number, make it go higher, right then we've multiplied that number by ten haven't you. Yeah. Yeah. Now, look what's happened to the point. goes after the nine there, but it's now after the Two. Two. So some people like to think that the point has moved one place to the right. What's really happened is that all the numbers have moved one place to the left. Right, but it's easier to see the point moving than the numbers really. So the quick way, then, of doing these decimals is just to move the move the point. Yeah? Now, if you're doing a divide, you want to demote all the numbers, don't you. You want to put them one down. Yes. So, if you're doing a divide, you want instead of four tens, you just want that to be four ones, don't you? So, if you're doing a divide, the four will go there, the nine will go there, the two will go there, the three will go there, and the four will go there. So look what's happened to the point. It was after the nine, but now it's after the four Four . So that divided forty-nine point two three four by ten and it's as if I've moved the point one place back. You understand? Have you met this before? Not this way. No. It's interesting isn't it. cos you're Year Nine now, and I would have thought somewhere along the line that you'd met this. Right. Well, I'll tell you what then Erm How about you constructing your own worksheet on this. Would you like to? It's all right. On the computer and then you can actually do this. All right? okay? Erm so do you want to log in perhaps over there, log in over there , erm and I'll show you what to do and then what, the sheet you do you right, we'll produce for other people, couldn't we. Right, so, rather than me just do some boring stuff there. All right? Just okay Right So if you log in now I think we will go into Word, right, we'll do this in Word, all right, Word for Windows so connect to network Log in as you. Oh, before we go any further, yes, sorry, no, you're right Liam can you make sure that computer's on please that one. Otherwise, oh, it's just the monitor that's off is it? It's just that otherwise when we choose the printer, we erm can I just see your screen, Liam. That's it, press when it comes up connect to network press return, we must get beyond connect to network. All right? Now, hold on,we'll just choose the printer before we go any further Can you just put the printer off line, Liam. How do you do that? Just press the top button Right, we'll select S S F O nine, select printer. Right? Mhm. Page down. Yeah, takes you to the end of this menu and we can return to the main menu, and er we won't er have to select printer again will we That's what I did. sir Did you? That's why space I've saved it on . You did. Oh good . Right, word full stop word Erm right, press return a few times then choose centering button and table, insert table, and now we're going to have a table whe where I thought we could have a number and it can either be times or divide by something and then the answer, so we want how many columns? Three. Three so number of columns three, and I'm not quite sure how many rows we want, how many questions we get on a page but perhaps try for thirty something like that, okay okay, now table isn't showing, go to view, oh, go to tables sorry table and you see grid lines is not clicked so click on grid lines, and if the table doesn't show that's usually why. Erm right,word in there decimals in capitals decimal How'd you spell decimal D E C I M A L And then well you're still in that put your mouse on there. Erm how strange Oh, I know what's happened, you've still got the centering icon going so it's centering these . Erm multiply or divide by, multiply or divide by M M U L T I P L Y space, space or Or? Yes do it small or, do it small letters space, space, then divide. Mr there's a telephone call for you. Do you know who it's from? Yeah. okay What you doing young man? Oh, right. What you doing Danny? Oh, I see. Is this on now? Right. And what are you doing? How do you spell divide, miss? Divide? What's it start with? D Right I Mm. I. D, right, now what d'you put on the end that makes an I sound I, the magic E Right. okay. Divide, that's right, no. Multiply or Divide with an e on the end What goes in the end column. What goes in the end column after you've got decimal multiply or divide? On here. Have you done this one, Danny? What's that, miss? What goes in this end column, here? Erm I think it's the equals I dunno but Have you done this one? Don't think so. Have you done this one, David? Erm What about matey over there. Have you done this one? What goes in this end column here? Decimal, multiply, divide I dunno Might be answer, miss. Did Mr tell you and you've forgotten. No. Right, well, you'd better wait, ah here he comes Mr 's on the 'phone. Mr , oh, lovely, right that's Danny's dad. Right, okay. I couldn't tell what to put in that end column. Ah, right, right, okay. Sir, it is alright if I do that art quiz, while I'm waiting to print off my work? Yes, yes, okay. Right, Erm multiply and divide by, put the word by, okay and then erm answer A N, yes capitals,A N S W E R Good, now we've printed this come out with grid lines, we got to format it so what we do is table, select table yes,, select table, select Tables, er undo table, yes it's a very useful facility. If you make a mistake with Word, right, then you can always undo it, right, if you ever make a mistake don't panic cos you can always undo it but you only get the one chance if you go on working then you can't undo it. So what we do is erm your your cursor must be in the table somewhere, so you then go up to table, select table, then you've got to format, border, and grid so we want the grid lines to show then in fact you can chose what we want for the outside border one of these Right,okay Now what I want you to do is set the questions, right? Now, what we'll do is this Erm Get into your table and put a decimal there, now you can choose, I don't mind what you have, right? so you're going to do some like that right. Here you're going to tell people what to multiply and divide by. Now, don't make it too difficult, the big problem with kids sett setting sheets they that they make it far harder than the teacher ever would so do don't be over ambitious, let's have a few easy ones to start with, right. You leave that blank, because that's where they are going to put the answer. Right? Can I put any number like four, three point whatever? Yeah, you can choose any decimal, it doesn't have to even start with numbers, cos it could start with zero, it doesn't, doesn't have, doesn't have, it doesn't have to be bigger than one, it can be smaller than one. okay? Now just so that they see whether to times or divide we've got to tell them, it's no good just putting a ten there is it I've got to say it's a times or divide okay? So, what I would suggest is erm times is easy because you can just use an x for times small x I think. Leave some space there I think, you need to make a space, that looks good. The silly thing is there is no divide on here and the only thing I can suggest really, there is a divide symbol in the computer that we can drag out but to drag it out every time it's too boring really so I'll think we use this I don't like using this, but you see this symbol here, that's what they really use for divide, so if you do that and a couple spaces, people will learn that that means divide, it's all we can do really Or we could if we could be bothered we could write the word divide. In this box here? All right? Sir, could I a a million. Yes, you can have millions if you want it. Yes. Erm this first two we'd tell people the answers to, so what answer would this one be that times by ten and all that happens . All that happens when we times by ten is that the point moves one place to the right, so what will be the answer can you tell me the answer to that one? Will it be twenty-three nine point eight seven. How do you say that number? Twenty erm two hundred and firty-nine point eight seven. Good, well done. This one is a bit tricky for a second question, I think I might revise this actually. Erm made this a bit too hard to start with. One like that, you see we'd have to move the point two places to the left, so we'll have to introduce another zero. Yeah, I I've done that. You've done that. Now let's get sheet . Right, now, what erm what would the answer be here That would be thirty-four four er point seven one eight. Right now you've only moved the point once. Oh, so what will the answer be? It'll be three point Good. well done this is simple Sir, I can't get into Windows. Right, I'll come and help you . Erm would you like to carry on with that? Put all the answers in? No, we'll leave those for the people to put in. You just set the questions. Right, David, what's the problem? It won't go into Windows. Erm What's that a gun. No Hugh. That's a rocket calling out to the crew of the lifeboat, but it's a lovely day. There's no wind and a boat can not be in danger. I know, but that they are There are. there are ships Sharp. sharp rocks just under the water and a S sailing boat might have been cor Car carried on by the tre Ti tide That's it. My dad, my dad's on the lifeboat. Let's go down and watch it go out. Well done. The two boys raced down the harbour, when Where. where the crew were Gathering. gathering. There's my dad. Hello, boys, a fishing boat has br Broken. broken down and we're going out to tow Well done. them in. When Wan Want to come for the run. There There's There's room and it won't be dangerous. Well done. Are you with me? Yes please. Come on. Su Super. Super. Once they were cl Sorry Clear. Clear of the harbour, Ron's farver took them to see the Eng Engines. Well done. Twin Yes. Dis Diesels, twin diesels. Diesels. They are Sealed. sealed so that they can work even if follo Flo Flooded. if flooded, that's it. with water. There even There, there's enough Enough power to keep the boat going, as fas At As full At At full speed even in the s Stro strongest gale Well done. They The. Then they say, saw the Search. Search lights Search lights At the loud Loud. Loud hil Hailer. Hailer and the V H F radio, with which the crew can keep in touch with airc aircr Aircraft. Aircraft and helicopter Well done. Half an hour later, Ron pop Po po point. Pointed to a boat dead a That's it dead ahead. Dead ahead. It was the o Oak leaf Oak leaf It was the Oak Leaf A loc Local. Local fishing boat which the lifeboat had came out to helped him Don't forget the full stop. Ten minutes later there were close even Enough. Enough to use the rocket pi Pi.. pi.. pistol Pistol That's it. it's that Threw. Threw a line across to see the fishing Across to the fishing Fishing boat and the fisherman was there Were then Were then at Able. Able to put a Pull a har Heavy. Heavy turn tow. Tow rope on boat. Board . Board . They were able to pull a heavy tow rope on board. Only it Once. Once it had been tri Tied. Tied strong Well it could be, but it's securely. Securely. Once it had been tied securely. The captain of the fishing boat waved his hand and the Powerful. Powerful engine of the lifeboat R roared. Roared into life. It was just in time too as both boats were drifting slowly to Towards. Towards some sharp rocks Funny how you go through a line like that beautifully, isn't it. You know, really well. Wish While. While this was going on, Ron and Her Hugh. Hugh were call Care ful Careful to stay out of the way. On the run back to the harbour, Ron's dad asked, did you enjoy that, boys Well read. Yes, can we join the crew of the lifeboat when we grow up Well done, so you haven't done that card before? No. I drew up the list, you've got it written in there. So we'll do the questions now. Go through them Question one. Question one. The noise Hugh heard was a Rocket, gun, backfire, rocket. So the answer to A, is one A. Rocket. Rocket. You keep that writing up like you done that it'll look lovely on that page. R O C K E T K E T. Right, that's good. To get to the harbour the boys A Raced, cycled,sa Sailed. A. They raced. Yes, they raced, because you can remember that from what it says here. Good. Number 3. The lifeboats' engines are sealed To get more power To give more power So they work if flooded. So they used less fu Fuel. Fuel. I fink it's so they worked if flooded You're dead right. B. It's good, you see, that you're remembering what you've read. It's all very well to read through something, but the main part about it is to remember what you've read. if flooded F L O O D E D Flooded, that's right. Question four Four . In bad weather the lifeboat Has to stop, can only go slowly can go as At. At full speed. I think it's C. You're dead right. Can go at full speed. S P E E D That's right. Number five. A line was thrown by A catapult, a fisherman, a rocket per Pi pi. Pistol. I fink it's C. Rocket pistol. So do I. I don't think they had a catapult out there. A rocket Pistol. That's right, now you've only got one. Let's see if you can get the hundred per cent. At the end of the trip, the boys Wanted to go home, felt sick, wanted to join the crew C wanted to join the crew. That's it. Hundred per cent. Wanted to To join the crew. And that is very neatly done. Now we'll see if we can find out these words, and then we'll write them in, write the answers in. So it'll start off with one, but you remember, we do it across the page. That's it. So you just start off with number one. And we are trying to find a word which means men, we're finding the word in the story, which means men who sail in boats It's number three. Yes. Thank you. Men who sail in boats in number three. No Hu Hugh Hugh . That's a rocket calling out the crew, crew That's the word. Crew. C R E W That's one, now number two is another word for pushed. Pushed, in number five, in chapter, and that's in paragraph five. I know, but there are sharp rocks just under the water and a sa Sailing. Sailing boat Might. Might have been Carried. Carried Is that it? It is. You're right, it's another word for pushed, you see, in this story. It could, because you could put and a sailing boat might have been pushed on by the tide. But it, was, it's more correct to say carried on, but that's another meaning okay? Number three ran quickly. Well we know what that is. Don't we. Because I think we've already said, we've already put it in two A. Raced. Yes, they raced. Two boys raced. So you got the same answer for two questions. Four. Coming together. They're coming together. That's also in six, oh well then so the two boys raced down the harbour With the Where the Where the crew were gath Gathering. Gathering That's it. So they're coming together. The word is gathering. Can you get it in there. G . G A T H E R I N G Yep. Just. That's it. Gathering. That's good. Filled with water Another word to cover the words filled with water. And you've got to come down to eleven for that. Only We'll read it from here. They are certain Sealed Sealed so that they can work even if flooded Well done. As soon as you get to the word, you know it. F L O O D E D And you know how to spell it. cos it's there Oh, that's all right. Doesn't matter, doesn't matter. Six very powerful torches okay, if you'd been in the war, you know what the answer to that was. Very powerful torches in eleven. Erm, start there. They.. then Then. They saw the sec What's that. Oh,sear Search. Search lights That's a very powerful torch, isn't it. S That's a long word C H L I G H T S That's it, well done. Erm that's powerful torches, seven showed with a finger . I think I know what that is and that's in twelve. Showed with a finger erm Showed with a finger oh, crumbs,oh yes, look it's in the first line. Half an hour later, Ron prom Poin pointed With a finger. Pointed. P O I N T E D Pointed. Number eight, tightly. Another word for tightly and that's also in twelve. Erm I think you can start reading here. writing Erm Once Once it had been tied That's fine, we'll do, we'll do, Paul Paul listen, don't be distracted. We'll do the functions of building afterwards, okay. At the moment we're doing what buildings are made of. Right. Stone, brick, mud, what else could they use? I've got a classic one, why did London burn down in 1600s, because all the houses were made of? Look, look, you're No, I'm not, I'm helping you understand I'm on about Listen listen to me. You can't talk about present day, right. I'm not on about that, I'm not on about that . Until you understand I'm not on about houses I'm on about main buildings like St Paul's an' all that Yeah, but the old churches were made of wood and stone it's important to think about that Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know what I mean Yeah, yeah, yeah A lot of the buildings in London are hundreds and hundreds of years old. Yeah, yeah, yeah We'll do types of in a minute so wood, mud, brick stone, anything else, marble erm wood, mud, brick, stone copper no they didn't build metal houses did they? yeah but that's roofs that's not a structure is it. I know structures,will you write bridges too bridges iron, iron bridges, I reckon that's a good start. Okay now this is materials, modern materials, okay, right tell me some of the things they make buildings out of now really big glass Yeah, good one Paul glass what else, what else they make them out of Metal Metals. Erm reinforced concrete big one for the sixties. Reinforced concrete. What about prefabs, what are they made of? Prefabs? Fibreglass? board. erm what else did they make them out metals, glass, reinforced concrete I mean like office blocks like that over there all that that crap They still use brick don't they? Yeah, they still use bricks. Cos that whole building is like looks like metal and er glass though doesn't it? Yeah. I think glass, metal, reinforced concrete, fibre glass, brick are about it, can't think what else they make a building out of these days So we've done our materials, let's do our what sort of buildings did they make. What, what were the buildings. What are we talking about. We are talking about houses. buildings. okay, we're talking about institutions and what comes under institutions? apartments institutions, schools anything paid for by the government, government buildings like you said, like town halls, libraries, theatres yeah What is a really important part of London architecture? What is there on every corner? No, building on every corner, which you can go in and have a jar? Public houses. Pubs are a really important. I did a seminar on pub architecture. Excellent, do you know what my research was? No. I had to go to lots of pubs, Oh great. Pubs really good one for London. Erm what else? Schools, government buildings, libraries, theatres, pubs, houses, what else did they build? Oh I know churches, what else? What other old important buildings can you think of in London. I can think of a really good one, Buckingham Mm. monarchy buildings what about so yeah royal buildings or palaces. Palaces, what's another big palace, one of the oldest buildings in London just off Tower Bridge, it's called the Tower of London. That's right, the Tower of London is a palace, the king used to live there. Palaces. What else? Right, let's do some modern buildings. What do they build these days? Let's put uses and give me some different ones. When they build these days, they build one really obvious one which Canary Wharf is office Office block. They build office blocks. What else do they build Paul, prisons. I've thought of a really good one, factories. Those old weird factories, with metal windows and not much light. Wharves, wharves for storing grain on the river, wharves. What are wharves these days turned into. apartments Luxury flats. So that's a good one Put wharf here. Put wharves and put erm what was the other one I said? Factories. And then you can put over here office blocks, flats, they didn't have flats pre sixties not till thought of it. That's really important write down What This guy, this guy right, this French guy okay in the twenties and the thirties yeah okay this guy and he invented the idea okay of towers. He invented the idea of communal living like flats okay and everyone was supposed to be the same. It was like communism everyone was supposed to be the same, everyone would have the same house, with the same shed, everyone would have the same stuff in their house, all their doors would be colour co-ordinated and that's what flats were, the original idea of flats were like co-ordinated living okay. This is great, this is tremendous But it doesn't work like that does it, cos what happens in flats. People change all their things. Exactly, people stick on big oak doors don't they. People cook fish People cook fish and irritate each other because they live too Close and it is unnatural for people to live too close. Ah ha, but in the old days they used to have balconies In the old days they used to have little houses close together called begins with T tensions Tenements Tenements Which are like your back to back. My grandmother, right, had a back to back No listen, this is funny, she lived in a tenement in er which isn't there anymore actually just up by the river, up by the Angel, and there was nine people living there in two rooms and they had a lodger and the lodger, so they did have My grandad used to live in Char Charles Dickens's house. Did he? Yeah not there anymore. He had fourteen, his grandmother there was seventeen of them. My God, well, I've got to at like, quarter to. Right we've got half an hour so right what else do they build which they never used to build.. We build office blocks, we build flats, we build They re re re thingy re-furbish They renovate. Renovate. That's good refurbishment, renovate, good lad, renovation Of old Yes, this is a very key key point. Okay so they base, we're talking about style now Oh yeah wait, wait, wait a minute, let's put this . Well, put these ideas over . Let's do this. I'll remember that idea for you. Office blocks, flats, they renovate places, what else do they do, what do we build. What's this school is it new? They build colleges and universities, educational buildings and many more. What do we have that we didn't used to have? Supermarkets no, no. Yes, no, that's important. Supermarkets, like shopping malls. Oh yeah. Arcades, what are they called? Shopping centres. Shopping centres, we're doing it together that's good. Office blocks, shopping centres, universities, new flats, renovated flats, office blocks, office blocks, they don't really build churches much anymore cos they don't need them, erm what else do they build? hostels for the young Yeah, hostels, hostels as opposed to hotels. Oh, yeah. Hotels. Youth hostels. you see the thing is Paul what you I could help you do is there are several modern buildings round here which we could investigate. There is the youth hostel and I know who built that cos he's a friend of mine. Oh, so he just like built did he? No, built that and I know the guy so I could get to the plans. They were but it's the recession and no-one's building at the moment. Erm right what you were talking about, just leave that. We've got a basis for our knowledge haven't we. We realize that, right, now how is style okay what a building looks like related to They're based on fings aren't they? How is style related to use cos the thing is it is really glib I think to say modern architecture's crap. I should go to the design museum. Ancient architecture's beautiful, you should. Design museum doesn't have a lot on architecture though. So style what you were talking about when they base ideas, just concentrate on what you are doing cos you're doing some good work you know when they base ideas on the past, that is looking back, yeah, like see this word retro, going back, right. So retrospective, when you are a spectator, what are you doing? Looking. Right, so spective is looking, retro is back, so retrospective so there's some styles, some modern art is retrospective. okay, it looks back. That's one new word for you. Think of a piece of modern architecture that, I think, personally, is all retrospective, I think everything built on the achievement of the past yeah I don't know, what is the actual question? What is the actual question she gave you? It ain't a question, it's my own study. Your own study, and how are making this media studies how is architecture media studies? Argument. It's just s'posed to be an argument but this will lead to up, like an argument of like them kind of buildings, are not like buildings, like tradition, to keep with the tradition. So you wanna look at Prince Charles' book don't you. Prince Charles' book, you wanna think about this guy Le Corbusier I'll have to go to the library for that. Think about this guy, I might have stuff on him, about flats and what they are for. What are they for? Erm Shh Hang on. Think about this idea this word building okay. Cos you've got a building and then you've got the idea of building on past knowledge and experience. There's a good, there's good language games you can play with that, because modern architecture builds in a way on the architecture of the past, cos that Canary Wharf is actually, what's on top of it? A pyramid. and when were the pyramids built? I dunno last week weren't it? In Egypt, do you see what I mean, so that you can have and put that down as an example, so you can have. You've got a pyramid on top of Canary Wharf, so that is classical reference Yeah,, I know, I know what you mean So if you can think about it like laterally but we gonna have to work out an argument What we wanna do is think of some buildings and describe them to ourselves and then work out what style, cos the thing is since the 1960s, styles like we want, like a progression of styles till the 1990s and see what's changed and what's stayed. Last lesson. Oh. Where, where, what have you got last lesson? technology Tomorrow. What have you got tomorrow? What have you got first lesson. Mrs ,, Miss English what about, next lesson, second lesson Yeah, it's all , don't worry about it. No what have you got? No, but what have you got? Nothing important. No, but I just want you to tell me. Science. With whom I don't know When are you supposed to come up here again? Tuesday next. Only once a week? Do you want me to sort out some stuff. Er I mean material that we can use. Right this guy's really important and that'll be helpful, Prince Charles book. Right, we wanna think about style, how it's changed since the sixties. When you think of sixties architecture what do you think of? Ugly blocks of concrete. Ugly blocks of concrete, okay. e.g. okay and whenever you describe this style you wanna think about right, take ugly blocks of concrete, okay ugly blocks of concrete, right, what is it and why do you think it looks like that? And what's it made of. Right, so what is it, it's flat old-fashioned it's not modern Ah, but it is in your context, you defined modern. So, why it's quick to build, space saving, what else is it, what is concrete that marble isn't? Attractive No concrete, what is concrete? Oh, it's erm stone. I mean erm money money . In comparison, how much does a block of concrete cost to a block of marble. Buy much concrete to a block of marble Exactly, so what is it, Paul, it is Cost . Cost Cost ec Economically. Economical. So it', I'm looking for a really simple word. It's ch ,ch Cost consuming. Cost effective, economical cheap do it the simple way, so it's cheap and we've got what it's made of concrete. So it's cheap, space saving Quick. Quick. And that's it basically, so you've explained why ugly blocks of flats in the sixties and you even know cos why post-war reconstruction of London. So the important thing about this is that you cannot, you cannot just say modern equals bad, and trad is good because you must in order to argue Paul examine the situation yes, situation or more complicated word for situation the modern arch context you must examine the context because the situation relies on the this is more art, it's like art. No, you must They like , they treat it as like pieces of art. But you ca but people do. The thing is, the trouble with that is when you try and understand or argue about something like that you can't treat it as a work of art cos it isn't it's a functioning building I'll have to change, I'll have to change my thingy You've got to think about why is it there what is it made of. What does it look like, can you explain, where does it come in history, and post-war, pre-war, think about the context, it's really really really really really really really vital Does this help you in some way? Yeah of course it does Right what about if we wrote this instead of I don't think you work well from diagrams they keep confusing. Write it in a list Things what I have to set out and like er put bits in Only do a yeah, only do one little bit at a time You put big heading Paul, what did we do first, what did we talk about first? How weird. What did we talk about first Paul? Listen, what did we talk about first? Erm What was the first thing we did? What was the first thing we did? We wrote traditional and then we wrote modern and then what did we do, what did we decide for those two categories? I can't remember, serious What did we decide, we gave them a, what was the important thing, we gave them a Erm Was the important thing we them a Erm, I don't know Look if I write that does that help? Oh yeah So we gave them a when, why, what situation So what did we do first? The The time line The time we're looking at, so we decided traditional was from civilization to World War Two and we decided that World War Two to ninety four was modern okay. Now you can define modern in lots of ways but that will do for our purpose. Right then we decided that we look at materials and what. So under the heading of what first thing we looked at was materials. Okay now I want you to make a list there for traditional of all the materials we put around there, so make that list there okay and make it easier to look at. Make a list of these words that are around materials Right, oh then I do and then you can do uses or types of building and you can make a list of all those things as well so types in your old college now concentrate, what? fire, I saw loads of people running down Where? When? the other day you're losing your concentration, it's very interesting but materials list there, types of building list there and I'm going to the loo and I'll come back. is that why you work so quick? No, cos it's quick if I have to keep your attention No you're doing that first, you're doing it now, do that and go and see her afterwards see what they do is they start you off and then they give you now what action do get from these words. Look at the words they're actually putting in, passion, loving, potions, you see what I mean why should they put in those sub-headings you what's the point of putting passion, what's the point of your sub-heading loving and potion. It is really isn't it? To grab your attention to keep your interest you've got another and you gonna keep on reading. So what you need to do is rather than have a big block of writing okay which is going to look not really in the format of this kind of newspaper is it?what you tend to get in the tabloids is loads of these little ones. See. Having said that of course quite a lot of the stories in the tabloids are actually quite small. what you need to think about and you're gonna keep your readers' interest engaged, keep on want to keep reading, your pictures are gonna do that to a certain extent but that's what your sub-headings goes over, so think about, pick out, read through your main story, pick out your main ideas and see if you can slot in one of those emotive words that's passion, that's stirring people's emotions The new college which cost eighteen million to build was destroyed there was a death toll, what about a final death toll was, it's a bit more than there was a, it's a bit boring, see what I'm saying? yeah final you've gotta be a bit more dramatic, you've gotta think of the words that are dramatic words, final death toll amounted to twenty twenty dead, forty three injured. Towering inferno at Bacon's I'm still trying to get the headline You gotta, you gotta try and think what your headline will be right no ideas, not yet not yet well well keep working on that what about erm the length of this piece I'm looking for, on A three aren't I tends to be a little bit on the first page then it goes onto pages like two, three,all different pages with small sections yeah yeah, right will go from that to that so all that writing is actually surrounding your picture isn't it, you've come up with your sensational picture and then you surround your sensational picture with your writing,I was saying to him with these little sub-headings like trapped, right, cost, holiday, okay which actually keep your reader hooked and make them want to read on. So again you've got to come up with your main heading what kinds of words do you think you've got to have in your main heading? basic words to do with the subject yeah more than that, what have they got to be these words they gotta be words which really what, which really make you feel what? as thought you want to hear them and appeal to a we're dealing with a horrendous fire here, we gotta have, shocking, don't you think some quite shocking words some quite horrifying words, if you want to grab people's attention yeah so think about that, what the tabloids do okay, think about your sub-headings and think about your main headings yeah okay, and the vocabulary you're gonna use but to start off with terrified that's that's really good. Right Sam what are you up to?is that not yours? Alright, you not got far on this No Shall we go onto, Kelly let's see what's she's been up to is there two there? show us the other one I don't know, it's the same one what's the one at the back It's the just these other, okay. That's good, don't you think, I'm impressed. I am impressed, I am impressed. Right Kelly tell me what you've been up to that's just they're the people I'm going to interview okay then you've got example yesterday at approximately nine twenty Bacon's technical college at went up in a barrage of smoke taking one life which is believed to be that of the caretaker who was having a last minute check before leaving the building in the evening. It was thought the cause of the fire was a student leaving a bunsen burner on at the end of day. It is while the caretaker was in the science and humanities wing he turned on the light which caused the college to explode. Mr. the caretaker leaves behind a wife and three children, two of which were twins blah, blah, blah. Bacon's college which cost around a quarter, around eighteen million to build, has now been open, has only been open since September 1991, and they're just more details which I've gotta add while I'm writing it, that's just the beginning write on the front page I don't know, my my feeling, my instinctive feeling is is that's not tabloidy enough, you know it's not erm horrific enough it's not, it doesn't grab me enough to be a front page of a tabloid. I mean I haven't seen there what you've got, what do you see as your main heading that's not gonna be the heading right you're not gonna use inferno at Bacon's, you haven't actually thought of the words? It's really important I think that you turn that into something more horrific and shocking. At the moment I mean that is quite a boring sort of report It's more of a story than a It is it's more of a little story and it's not a front page shocker which I think is what we said we'd set out to write, a front page shocker okay so I think you've got to think about the kind of words you use. Now what kind of words do you think should go on a front page if you're dealing I dunno , but the sentences have gotta be shorter, Yes you're right, they have It's gotta be er more, like more snappy more to grab ya, ain't it really and what's gonna grab you I dunno yet think about it how are you gonna grab me? what kind of words are you gonna use to grab me er bodies, victims, flames what do those words do to me as I'm reading I think I might, I dunno I've gotta think of ways to change it so there's more than one line taken You're gonna make the actual statistics worse okay yeah you can do that but it's the vocabulary that's not strong enough yes isn't it yes it's more it's just going through the motions of a story at the moment rather than you're, you've got quite a good backbone there but you haven't got anything that really grabs my emotions. You haven't shocked me, you haven't horrified me, you haven't made me want to cry yet I'm gonna talk about the son here If we're dealing with a front page horror story that's exactly what your journalist is gonna have to do otherwise his editor says it's not good enough you know go away, rewrite it and you got shock 'em you gotta make 'em cry and you're not, not yet It's back to the drawing board back to the drawing board you've got a backbone but you've not got anywhere near a shocking front page. Vicki? Some what's your time line do you think? When have you got to finish it by? Half term Half term so what's your subject? school on fire this college on fire, eighteen million goes up in flames mind you that's a boring headline really. right so in your thinking, what sort of things are you gonna put in that story? What is your reader gonna want to know about? how it started right how it started, what else? erm, people injured yes erm, information about the fire how quickly it spread, who was trapped, who was burnt, how many fire engines, all those kind of things that people love to know. Has anybody got into the who was to blame bit?poor old caretaker who is to blame. Yes, the kind of gruesome details that people want to know when they're reading these kind of stories, okay. Shock and horror is what sells these kinds of newspapers, unfortunately and they do a roaring trade, think about it, think about the vocabulary you gonna actually use. Right you two over here what are you up to have you got a headline? Bacon's burning Right look at the Gazette, twenty million college goes up in flames, out of control chemistry experiment wrecks school. Right are you gonna have a picture underneath? Yeah Is your front page just gonna be all headline and picture, or are you gonna have a bit of story Okay so you're gonna have some statistics right, got a picture I'll probably make the headline look smaller Can you can you tell me or have you got a pic , where does the picture usually go? does it go right at the top or do you usually have a bit of headline what happened in that Mirror one there? The size of it, what's the size of the picture on that one? Teeny, weeny little ones on that one Do you think you actually look at the words first or the picture first? Words Picture both, really I think they both hit you at the same time I suppose if it's a colour picture Like with that the picture's more distorted so you more read the words. I think it depends what the picture's really like Depends what the story's about and how big the picture is how many of you are gonna try and do this in colour? yeah you can do right okay you gonna have to insert your pictures do a cut and paste job on the pictures, okay so what have we got here then? Bacon's burning oh nice one sizzle sizzle. Can you, if you use your language cleverly can you play on the bacon as in frying grilled that's pretty, yeah grilled that's really gruesome isn't it but you could, I mean really that's the sort of ghastly thing people do isn't it in headlines which you could use it as you've used the actual word Bacon's in your headline you could play on words keep using that idea. So what other sub-headings have you thought of? I keep having to remind you lot about your sub- headings. You're good on your headings but not on your sub- headings yet. What else could you put on that front page? city of the terrified, looting as thousands see that was good, looting wasn't that a good word to start with. What was that word you started with terrified terrified, he actually kicked off with the word terrified, this one's actually kicked off with the word looting. this one's kicks off with the word the the, boring, unimaginative anybody else got a good word to start tragic tragic that's a good word to start from it's the first thing they're gonna look at after the headline so it's pretty important that that the first word, I think looting was an excellent choice here. nightmare nightmare, that would go well yes. Right, subs, are these the sub-headings here? yes look reports and dramatic new pictures pages two and three. One man's story of the L A quake page nine. Tent city springs up, Britons fly home , beware of doing too large of making blocks of writing too large. Okay that does not fit in with this style of newspaper. Also have you noticed something else folks, boys, if you look at this how many different sizes of font have you actually got there on that page. one, two, three, four, five,si what the whole story well the whole page look at the differences, look at the variations there ten well it could be as many as that I mean sit and count it, but there's a lot of variation, there's a lot to catch your eye, I mean the more things contrast with each other, the more you notice them, isn't that true. When we looked at the Telegraph and the Times things seem so samey, there's just this uniform effect everything seeming to look the same whereas here they've really used such a variety of styles the curly, the straight, the blocked plus your black blocks across the bottom. Well you've taken the colour out there obviously in photocopying it but you've also got to be crafty and think of things like that as well. So bear that in mind, even the beginning of this story look at that first paragraph it's in a darker type it'll make me filthy, a darker and a larger size. So bear that sort of thing in mind as well. Girls how far have you got. This looks good. It's hot in the kitchen, Bacon's burning, now she's used the same sort of thing, it's hot in the kitchen Bacon's burning, you too could use the play on words for the idea of bacon and burning and cooking and sizzling if you want to be really gruesome. Make it very clever, she's got her woman on the front page boys. that's money there what is she covering herself with money. So we got bingo, we've got the word naked on the front page, she's dead crafty this girl. Okay what about you? Let's have a look Fire, fire, Bacon's college ablaze. Can we just hold up your front, yes come on, come on, evaluation of front headlines now, what have you picked, have you got yours? Have you thought of yours? How many of you have actually got your main headlines? what was yours? Goodness gracious great balls of fire goodness gracious great balls of fire, I like it girls have you thought of yours not yet you've got, what have you two got, go on show Bacon's burning twenty million college goes up in flames, Bacon's burning, come evaluation, which do you think the most effective so far repeat, what was it? goodness gracious great balls of fire, fire fire Bacon's college ablaze, it's hot in the kitchen, and yours were twenty million college goes up in flames and yours was Bacon's burning right, those of you that haven't done one yet which one do you like best? dunno why? explain cos it's a bit sick come on what do you both say it's cleverer, isn't it? mm Yes, you give him ten out of ten for effort there. We like your cleverness Has he given it more thought, he's just come up with a really clever idea I think there he said that first day, didn't he? he did, he came out with it straight straight away. Right good words in headlines then, any which words grab here. You two hot hot I think, with the kitchen though it kinda makes you think that's the fire's going in the kitchen which it's not yeah but I used kitchen cos bacon yeah, but that in which case I think you should try and tie the story in with it became in like the canteen yeah but in the kitchen in the canteen it says hot in the kitchen then it's got Bacon's burning. yeah, but obviously the canteen is part of the college and could've have still burnt down the college. And with the kitchen in it I think it could tie into the story with it being in the headline. Well you mean so if she, if in her story you know, it would make it better cos I got the impression of reading the headline, it meant that you know from the kitchen So if his story now isn't going to be in the kitchen this is a mislay misleading headline. yeah right what've got here? Fire, fire, is that, what do you think of that for a start, fire, fire. fire, London's burning So you gonna really, you're gonna use the quote at the front, that could be good. It's certainly the word fire is the one that goes with ablaze, is ablaze a good word? mm do you like that word? it's different to what everybody else is using bit more sophisticated actually isn't it, maybe too sophisticated for this . Mm what have we got over here then, what do we make of yours? Again just Bacon's burning, is your fire going to be in the kitchen? mm no you just like the idea of bacon cooking you picked up on the same idea. And what we did we have. Now this is totally different, what do you make of this one? What do you think of this? girls. I don't think that's kind of less what you'd find in the Sun because of twenty million college goes up in flames. I think, I dunno whether it's more political more you know people think well why was twenty million wasted on a college you know and saying like that I think you know which is less the Sun. He's actually called it the Gazette so we don't know if it's political But you're right yes it's sort of erm drawing your attention to the fact that this college the money costs this horrendous sum of twenty million pounds political slant to the story and it's only been open for what two or three years what a waste you know and then they didn't build it well enough to withstand fire exactly especially you know ooh, ooh, interesting out of control chemistry experiment wrecks school well this a science orientated college and they shouldn't be allowed to get out of control. cos it's a C T C yeah even worse, you can build on this idea, couldn't you? I think he's got a good idea here but if he takes that slant to his story you could do rather well. Do you like that idea? Yes. I think that could go quite well. Which which words then are actually grabbing you there. twenty million definitely yeah and then the flames La la la la Hello. Well Catherine That's okay. Not to worry about that. What've you been doing to yourself? I've been no I've been taking kind of palpitations, I don't know, and I'm as tired as Come on let's have a listen to you and see what you're doing to your poor old self. They're all cos of the heart trouble in the family, you know. Trying to get you worried. Probably. Trying to get you worried. Probably. Let's have a listen and see what's Take a big deep breath . There we are. And deep breath again. Well, let's do just your ordinary breathing bit. Your heart's ticking away like a clock. Ah, my heart's . Let me look in your eyes and see you might be getting a wee bit bloodless actually I mean that's the other thing Cathy, you're a bit pale in there. Maybe that's . Aye. But certainly your heart's ticking away there like a wee clock, it's not up to. Yeah, well that's something. But you've not noticed anything else about yourself Catherine, no? In what way? Your weight, there's trouble with the water,sh No. shortness of breath, or s nothing nothing like that at all? You look just much the same as your usual, you don't Aye, I'm feeling fine. I was just that some nights I waken up and you know you can actually hear your heart . Oh aye, oh y y you better get used to that, cos it'll happen for the rest of your life. Oh does it ? Yes. Aye. Aye no, you get a once you have heard that, you never waken up without hearing it. Is that right? Aye. It's one of these things. It's ha it happens all your life, the noise is there all the time Aye, but you don't notice it? You don't notice it a and then once you do, every time you wake up, it's there. in your head. you hear, in fact some folk waken up and they can feel it pulse coming up there. Is that right? Aye. And they, they get very worried about that. It's quite normal. It's quite normal to do that,. Have you given them and that, you know ? Yeah. And I wondered why there wasn't and I'd been sitting there for ages, twenty five past five is the appointment. Mhm. Er but don't don't worry about that er Aye. when you, when you hear that that's nothing. Nothing to worry about with that. , There we are now I shall survive again then. You're going to live for a wee while yet, going to live for a wee while yet. Yes. Oh aye oh If you've got anything funny like that, you get it checked. Aye, right away. Don't, don't ignore it. Well I think you can go home now cos I was the last. Och. You think so? I would, I wouldn't bet on it. I wouldn't bet on it. Right, Thanks. okay Cathy, cheerio now. Order, order. Questions for the Secretary of State for employment. Cheryl Gillan. Number one Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker we estimate that British employers spend er approximately twenty thousand million pounds a year on training. The last recorded figure in nineteen eighty seven was eighteen thousand million pounds. Miss Gillan. Thank you Madam Speaker. I thank my right honourable friend for that reply. Would he agree with me that one of the major contributing factors to our rapid recovery from recession in advance of all the other European communities. Hear, hear. Very good point . Has been that British industry has continued to maintain its investment in training. Hear, hear. I agree with my honourable friend er one of the er satisfactory features of the C B I er survey last week, one of the many, was that eighty four percent of firms er in the U K intend to increase or maintain their spending on training and of course she's absolutely right, they will be the firms that will benefit most from that investment in training as we continue through recovery into growth in the longer term. Barry Jones. But the right honourable gentleman will recollect that in aerospace in steel and in textiles there are now no large apprenticeship schools. When in his own ministerial memory he may remember that there were. What action is he taking to specifically gain er activities that will ensure there will be apprenticeship schools. From him we have too many press releases and not enough action. Hear, hear. It would destroy jobs, er all I would say to the honourable gentleman is that he will have noticed that the Chancellor of the Exchequer er used one of the announcements in his budget statement on the thirtieth of November last year er to announce that we shall be introducing a modern apprenticeship scheme. Hear, hear. Which will be available for school leavers next year and that the Chancellor has allocated in the department of employment budget, for training credits and the new modern apprenticeship er over a billion pounds er which will be utilised to introduce those apprenticeships. What I very much hope is that industry will now respond by coming forward, particularly this year with trail blazing apprenticeship schemes that will ensure that we have got the most relevant structures in place for those modern apprenticeships next year. Oliver Heal. Would my right honourable friend care to pay tribute to the work of the training and enterprise councils in helping women particularly who want to get back into work by providing child care facilities er and would he also like to comment on the threshold scheme in Northampton which he visited last week which is an example of partnership between the public sector, the private sector, the TECs er promoting this sort of work. I'm very grateful to my honourable friend. I do indeed pay tribute to over one thousand two hundred top business and community leaders who serve on our eighty two training and enterprise councils and who indeed is quite right in er earmarking, do a tremendous amount of work on equal opportunities. The child care initiative launched by my predecessor involving expenditure of over forty million pounds over the period is giving training and enterprise councils the opportunity to come forward with some very imaginative and innovative schemes. One of those I saw in Northampton was extremely impressive and is founded as my honourable friend says, on positive partnership. Tony Loyd. Madam Speaker. What what actually would shift the Secretary of State from his, his mood of complacency. Between nineteen ninety and nineteen ninety two over a million skilled workers were put out of work in this economy, nearly half a million semi skilled workers lost their jobs. The number of people trained in industry dropped by three hundred thousand and the Secretary of State tells the house that this is a success. This isn't the opposition talking the country down, it's the government doing the country down. Well I'm sorry that the opposition is continuing to talk the country down. We we have in fact er had a very impressive record on competitiveness. We now in manufacturing where there's been a decline in employment since the nineteen sixties, we now have four million workers in manufacturing producing more than seven million produced fifteen years ago. That's a tribute to the British work force and don't let the honourable gentleman forget that we now have one point four million more in work, in the U K than we had ten years ago. Let him start talking up our achievements rather than pointing to an agenda which his party has already signed up to which would destroy millions of jobs through statutory works councils, statutory minimum wage and statutory compulsory working week. That's a recipe for disaster. James Question number two Madam Speaker. Er Madam Speaker the United Kingdom has sixty nine percent of its working age population in work and it is rising. Germany has sixty five percent and it is falling and France sixty percent and now also falling. Mr Palsey May I thank my honourable friend for that extremely helpful reply and for the encouraging figures which he has given to the house this afternoon. Very encouraging . Clearly it happens to er underline the fact that the United Kingdom economy is in much better shape when compared to the economies of our principal European competitors. Would er my honourable friend agree with me that one of the reasons why we've come out of the recession so well is the fact that we don't have a social contract and . Hear, hear Would he agree with me that the social contract, the absence of a social contract certainly hasn't damaged er rates of take home pay. Hear, hear. Er Madam Speaker I entirely agree, I entirely agree with my ho honourable friend er the absence of the social chapter in Britain accounts in part for our higher levels of employment and the reforms which we carried out in the eighties and the figures speak for themselves, as do the er people who speak for industry for example when Black and Decker announced their intention to bring their operations er fully into Britain out of Germany, a company spokesman said anyone familiar with this sit situation in Germany will grasp that because of costs it is become very difficult to do business there. If members opposite had their way it would be very difficult to do business here. Bill Campbell-Savers. Would would the minister answer a question on a matter of concern to businessmen in the county of Cumbria? After the tax increases in the budget of this year o on April which are in to be introduced in April the first. Does the minister believe that they have implications for the economy of the United Kingdom? Does he think they will lead to further unemployment and does he think they'll have enough the effect of increasing unemployment in my part of the United Kingdom? Madam Speaker I am sure that my right honourable friend the Chancellor's proposals to er reduce the burden of national insurance contributions will have a very beneficial effect er on employment a and on businesses but er if members opposite and er the honourable gentleman er says what he thinks clearly, if members opposite are arguing that higher public expenditure and higher taxation will have an impact on employment then he's absolutely right. That is why on this side we resist the proposals which come from members opposite to add to public expenditure every day of the week. Julian Brazier. Would my right honourable friend, sorry would honourable friend agree that the way you build jobs in an economy is through having successful businesses. Businesses like Chartered Papermill where one of our honourable friends will be opening a new plant er shortly where they have have won awards for quality, for training and for exports, national and regional during the last three years. That is the way that we build jobs surely, not through bureaucratic regulations. Er Madam Speaker I entirely agree with my honourable friend, regulation and bureaucracy are the enemy of employment and that is why the Prime Minister has ensured that every government department is looking at regulations and bureaucracy to reduce the burden and that is why in the forthcoming European elections on this side of the house we'll be arguing for less bureaucracy and less regulation, not more which destroys jobs. Michael . Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker, this is a job summit and I intend to talk about jobs. I'm very grateful to the minister for being brief though of course he passed on no information of any worth. The five hundred and forty three thousand less people in employment in Britain than there was a year ago and four hundred and fifty one less in employment than in nineteen seventy nine. Surely it's time to talk to the United States about how they succeed by having a minimum wage in most states and giving trade union rights to people that we deny the same firms employees in this country. When the honourable gentleman said I gave no information I said I intended to talk about jobs and in this country we believe, we believe that er there are three things very important a at this forthcoming summit. First of all the importance of a stable economic framework. Secondly the importance of a flexible Labour market and thirdly the removal of barriers to enterprise. Finally I'll just say this to him, I agree that we have a great deal of things to learn from the United States, not in the way he suggests but it is a fact that er over the economic cycle of O E C D between seventy nine and eighty nine er America the United States saw growth of twenty six percent which created eighteen and half million jobs in their free enterprise economy. The European community on the other hand also saw a growth of output of over twenty percent, twenty three point seven percent but that gave rise not to eighteen million but to only six million additional jobs and I just say to the honourable gentleman the lesson for Europe is to go further down the route that I have suggested of further deregulation and less bureaucracy and a stable economic framework, than to go down the route that he is advocating in his short address and question to me. I believe the way ahead lies with more free enterprise . Sir Peter Horton. Er would my would my right honourable friend confirm that in the United States there are no government training schemes of any kind. Is it not extraordinary therefore that in the United States where there is the most rapid growth of technology and of productivity, there are no government training schemes and does this not make a nonsense of the opposition's repeated claim that government training schemes are the way forward? What I w what I will say to my honourable, my right honourable friend is that er when I recently visited the United States I did find that the , on which our training and enterprise councils have been based, have provided a very valuable experience for us in learning the lessons that he had indicated of ensuring that the private sector is fully involved in decisions over training and I believe that the figure I gave to my honourable friend early today, combined with over two billion that my department spends on training, forms a very effective public private sector partnership. Sir John Prescott. Will the Secretary of State make clear to the summit that after fourteen years of this government we have seen unemployment treble to three million unemployed. That we have three million full time employer ployees replaced by three million part time and self employed with the worst trained and education labour force of any attending the summit. Will he also ask the Americans how, as he claims, they've created eighteen million jobs with a minimum wage provision and also make clear how much Britain is paying in family credit support to maintain low paid subsidised wages by the tax payer in this country? Still the honourable gentleman talks down Britain. I think he has to I think he has to think very seriously before he starts to decry the achievements of this nation. For instance I have given one which is in the last ten years we have nearly one and half million more people in work than we had ten years ago. That is a signal achievement. If I also say to him that the lesson we learn from the United States is not to go down the route that he and his party have signed up to in signing up to a socialist manifesto for the European elections. He is proposing, which is the last thing you would find the United States, statutory works councils, statutory minimum wage, compulsory working week, it's about time he dropped those proposals which would cost millions of jobs. Alan Howarth. At the summit will my right honourable friend enquire about the progress in the employment of disabled people and the advantages to the American economy in consequence of the Americans with disabilities act. Will he accept that in the United States of America, the land of free enterprise, it was concluded that voluntary arrangements would never sufficiently overcome discrimination against employment and will he respond positively to the view of the employers forum on disability and the law society as well as three hundred and eleven honourable members of this house who have signed E D M number two that the time has now come for legislation to ban discrimination against in er disabled people in respect of employment in this country. Well I I know my honourable friend feels very strongly on this subject. What I would hope that we could achieve in this country is more through erm opportunities for disabled people, greater opportunities for disabled people to gain access into work and as my honourable friend knows, we have put forward some proposals we're presently considering the position following the representations that have been made to us after the er new access to work scheme was announced and I hope to make an announcement on that aspect shortly. But I just say to my honourable friend I don't think er compulsion er is the route with that we should follow. I believe we must give increasing opportunities to disabled people to get into work. Mr Derek Number five ma'am er Madam Speaker examples include the introduction of it new integrated regional offices and the creation of a single regeneration budget from April the first of this year. Er Mr Enright. Grateful to the minister for that reply but would he not agree with me that where local authorities erm local chambers of commerce and trades councils er and his own department of employment, are already working well together with good small initiatives, to put upon them English Estates, TECs, British coal enterprise er is in fact to do precisely what he does not advocate to make a mushrooming of bureaucracy and will he not undertake to evaluate these initiative to see if they really do work or whether they're just providing jobs for the boys. Er Madam Speaker, I I agree with er the honourable gentleman that it's extremely important that the various agencies do play a part in working together to ensure effective action with minimum bureaucracy and I know that the honourable gentleman has been anxious to ensure that that happens in his own constituency and his own area where he is dealing with the problems of high unemployment er and the fall out from the closures of pits in his area and if the honourable gentleman has any specific er er measures which he would like us to look at then I'd be very happy to consider those. Philip Oppenheim. Er but is my honourable aware that employment prospects in Amber valley were devastated by pit closures mainly in the nineteen seventies but that now the area, but that now the area has some of the lowest unemployment in Europe, certainly lower than in Germany and the reason is mainly due to the success of new manufacturing businesses. Doesn't this, doesn't this illustrate that the best way to create sustainable jobs in the long term is not subsidising unsustainable old industries but by allowing better conditions for enterprise, better labour relations in themselves to attract new jobs to the area. Hear, hear. Madam Speaker I entirely agree with er my honourable friend. The way to secure future prosperity is by embracing change not resisting it and as my honourable friend er indicates, by using our skills to best effect and competitively in a global market place were we to embrace the policies of members opposite in the European community we would shut the job, the door to the jobs which will come from that inward investment because we have opted out of the social chapter we do indeed have the opportunity that comes from being, if I may qui may quote er President Delors a pa a paradise for inward investment. Mr Kevin Baron. Could I say to the minister and bring him back to the real world about regeneration. The government are about to announce er at Templebury in Rotherham a three point seven five million pounds project which I a actually support er made by English Estates that project is estimated to create a hundred and seventy five jobs. Last year out of the two thousand nine hundred and thirty nine that were lost in the Rotherham borough from coal, engineering and steel there were two hundred and sixty jobs lost at Templebury steel plant in November. This year seventy five jobs lost at last week and there's four hundred job losses that are currently being negotia negotiated in United Engineering Steels in Sheffield and Rotherham. That regeneration project is a flea on a dog's back into the jobs that have been lost in that area at the moment. When are we going to meet the needs of those areas for jobs and not have these things where we're getting less than twenty percent job replacement through g regeneration. Well Madam Speaker, we'll start making progress when members opposite realise that jobs come from companies being competitive, from private enterprise being able to sell goods and services competitively and it is members opposite who believe that the state can provide employment on this of the house we believe that government agencies can assist the market to operate effectively and real jobs will come from free enterprise which members opposite stand against. Madam Speaker I wonder if the minister is aware that in the economically declining fishing port of Brixham in South Devon the second largest fishing port in the West Country that the employment service agency want to build a new building on a prime site in the centre of Brixham in order to put both the payout office and the job creation office in the same building and they're prepared to pay over the odds with government money and push out private enterprise who want to build that site. Isn't it a far better use of public money to create training and job creation rather than to buy a prime site with public money? Er, Madam Speaker I'm very much aware of the case that the my honourable friend has er mentioned because he has written to me er about it and I have looked into the circumstances er of it and I understand that the employment service have made no final decision on that particular site and I'd be happy to respond to my honourable friend er once I've had a chance to discuss it further with the Chief Executive of the employment service whose responsibility it is but if I could just say to my honourable friend the principle of integrating er the work of the job centre and the payment of benefits on one site is a good one which is for the convenience of er people who make use of the job centres er and er as er er the honourable er gentleman, the member for Workington is indicating from a sedentary position, was a recommendation which was supported by the public accounts er committee and I believe and I believe that it er makes sense to proceed on a value for money basis with this policy but I will certainly look at the particular example in my honourable friend's constituency with interest. Kate . Number seven. Er, there is of course er no such tech. However if the honourable member is referring to her own tech, which is called South Thames tech then the department's regional director is currently negotiating the level of resources for ninety four, five with the tech and of course also with other London techs. Kate . Yes thank you I'd like to thank the minister for her reply some of us in South London will still call it the site of East London Tech no matter what the minister wants to call it. But could I say to the minister that she will be aware that the South Thames tech actually is the first tech to get involved in kids club network and that one of the very useful things that has happened in my constituency is the setting up the first kids after school club in in in Vauxhall. Would the minister like to say, like to welcome that initiative but also to ensure that the money which the South Thames tech are going to be able to put into that will be able to continue and not only continue in that one but to allow the increase of this after school provision so that those many women in my constituency and who, the many women in South London who are unemployed, will have the opportunity to get back to work and get back to training with that very necessary provision for child care. Hear, hear. Can I say first of all to the honourable lady that yes of course I welcome er the particular initiatives er and indeed I have visited it as I think she will know, er and I'm very pleased to congratulate all those concerned in setting it up. We have of course made it clear that those techs who were piloting er the out of school childcare initiative er will continue er to be funded er along with all other techs from ninety four, five and although of course I cannot preempt the tech's judgement and take a view on that particular scheme, er I can say that funding will continue for techs for that purpose. Mr Ian Taylor. Would my honourable friend er recognise that just up the River Thames from er the South Thames tech is the Surrey tech which is doing and excellent job with local industry in re-skilling particularly younger people and this partnership with industry, not just dependent on what the government does, but what industry itself does to try and help people get back into jobs with the new challenges that are coming from the difficulties that are presented by higher calibre needed particularly for school leavers and other and will he w would she welcome the Surrey tech's initiative? Er yes I have pleasure indeed in worre er in welcoming the er Surrey tech's initiative er and indeed similar initiatives er in other techs up and down the country. I'm delighted to welcome er the various initiatives that result from partnerships between industry and government er and in particular the investors in people which encourages training and skilling er on a life long basis and I have pleasure in confirming that that is not confined to the private sector and that today ACAS became the first civil service er body to receive the full award of Investors in People. Mr David Winneck. Number eight The Prime Minister and I had such a meeting on the twentieth of December. Er, Mr Winneck. But is the Secretary of State aware that the campaign against the ban on union membership at G C H Q remains as strong as ever and will continue until victory is secured. There was no justification for the ban in the first place and is the Secretary of State not concerned that the International Labour Organisation has expressed much concern over the continuing ban and it may well be that in view of the fact that the government is not willing to compromise in any way the I L O may well decide to formally rebuke and reprimand the government. If that is the case you'll be the first ever case of a Western government being so reprimanded. Madam Speaker there are a number of points in that supplementary question, let me deal first of all with on G C H Q we've done exactly what the I L O requested us to do, we've had er discussions with the civil service unions to see if a solution could be found. No one ever imagined for a moment that it would be easy to find a solution which would satisfy both sides, but as far as the government is concerned the dialogue remains open. I'm confident that we have nothing to fear from an examination of our industrial relations policies, er at the I L O. We believe we can demonstrate that these polici er policies comply with all the I L O conventions that we have ratified. Michael Allison. Would my right honourable friend confirm that the former director of G C H Q, Sir Brian Tovey, stated that during the imposition of martial law in Warsaw and during the Soviet anva invasion of Afghanistan some ten thousand hours of cover were lost at G C H Q. And will he not confirm that is a perfectly good reason for the ban on external er interference by trade unions in the activities of G C H Q and will he also assure the house that the existing trade assoc the staff association works perfectly well and there is no reason whatever for an external trade union to interfere in G C H Q's affairs. Well I can, I can confirm what my honourable friend says. Namely that between nineteen seventy nine and nineteen eighty one, ten thousand working days were lost at G C H Q and we just cannot run the risk of anything like that ever happening again. So far as my honourable friend er is concerned he is right erm and we indeed suggested that the staff federation should be affiliated to the council of civil service trade unions to enable staff who belong to the federation to gain access to the facilities available to unions affiliated to the C C S U. Sadly, sadly the civil service unions did not feel able to accept this proposal. Anne But isn't it er true according the reports in the financial times, that the government at this moment is planning to withdraw Britain from the I L O. Precisely because the I L O has censured Britain a censure that is normally a sanction that is normally applied to countries like Haiti and North Korea. Isn't it a fact that this government is becoming isolated, not only in Europe but throughout the world for its anti worker and its anti union policies. There is no truth that er ministers intend to withdraw from the I L O or to seek an opportunity to do so and despite T U C criticism, as I said earlier, we believe that our policies comply with all the I L O conventions which we've ratified and as my honourable friends have pointed out, our overriding objective is to ensure the maintenance of continuous operations at G C H Q which is vital to the protection of national security. However the Prime Minister has made it clear that the government is ready to discuss any further proposals that the uish union may wish to put forward that are consistent with our overriding objective of safeguarding national security. Graham . speak. Would my right honourable friend not agree that because of their irresponsible behaviour in disrupting G C H Q's vital work in the early nineteen eighties the trade unions only have themselves to blame for this ban. Hear, hear. I couldn't agree more with my honourable friend. It is very important indeed to ensure that the staff of G C H Q are not subject to potential conflicts of interest and as I said earlier the Prime Minister and I listened for some considerable time to the s to er to the points put forward by the trade unions to see whether or not that overriding er national objective could be maintained but we were not convinced, we were not convinced that erm the trade unions could overcome those potential conflicts of interest and it behoves ill the party opposite to try and put a different gloss on the fact that we in this country thanks to our legislation, have put harmony in place of strife and we are not prepared to allow the opposition to put that major achievement at risk. No number nine Madam Speaker. Figures from the labour force survey showed that in the banking, finance, insurance and business services in greater London, the number in employment since nineteen eighty nine has risen by seven thousand. What message has the minister to give to the five hundred and five employees of Barclays Bank in London whose new year began with receipt of a redundancy notice at the very moment when the bank's new chief executive was having his pay doubled to seven hundred and thirty seven thousand pounds a year. What comment has the minister to make on this example of corporate ethics or does she like the Prime Minister believe it's no matter for her? is the matter for the honourable gentleman is giving his constituents hope what he appears completely unable to do. You will the house will note, the house will note Madam Speaker that the phraseology of the honourable gentleman's original question was how many jobs have been lost, in fact jobs had risen and he didn't even have the grace to welcome that. Perhaps he would like Hear, hear . to tell his constituents that with London's share of world trade in financial services is increasing and is now at twenty seven percent that the financial services sector round the U K four point three billion, that those employees that he refers to are in fact in an industry which even if it is redistributing employment it's nevertheless growing. Can I say to the honourable gentleman, why doesn't he give encouragement to Britain's performance in the financial services sector? Why don't the whole lot of them ? Would my honourable friend, is my honourable friend aware that employment in London and the South East has actually risen by over two hundred in the ten years from March nineteen eighty three and will she confirm that some of the hundred and fifty thousand places in the new apprenticeship scheme will be available in London? Yes I have pleasure in confirming that and I also have pleasure in confirming that another good sign for young people, apart from the creation of modern apprenticeships, is also the way that the numbers waiting more than eight weeks for a Y T place has now declined from over three thousand to just over three hundred. That there are now a large number of techs in the country with no young people waiting, modern apprenticeships are going to help that process even further and why aren't modern apprenticeships being welcomed? I take it that the honourable gentlemen are in fact cheering the government, thank you very much. Tony Banks. Is the, is the minister, is the minister aware that Barclays have laid off or declared seven thousand redundancies. National Westminster has announced four thousand redundancies and yet you still have to wait ages in the queue at the bank, why is that? Hear, hear Perhaps the honourable member should do a competitiveness survey and go somewhere else for his queue, I don't know but what I can tell the honourable gentleman is that even though there were losses in the banking industry for the last year there have been strongly offsetting rises in insurance and business services. It's generally good news in the financial sector. That is the message which the honourable gentleman might be telling both those in the queue and the cashiers. Sir David . Question number ten Madam Speaker number ten. Ten. David Conolly. Er er Madam Speaker er non-wage costs never get into employees wage packets but do make it more expensive for employers to provide a job. On average for every one hundred pounds in wages an employer in Britain must pay twenty pounds extra, in Germany thirty pounds and in France and Italy forty pounds. Mr Conolly. Does my honourable friend agree that one of the reasons this country is so successful at attracting inward investment is because of those lower non-wage labour costs? Does he also agree that the imposition of the social chapter, which both parties opposite would like to force on this country, would not only destroy our competitive advantage but more importantly would destroy jobs? Hear, hear. I entirely agree with er my honourable friend, er not only er is the lower non-wage cost a reason for inward investment being attracted to Britain but it's also why together with our general economic policy, why workers in Britain enjoy in real terms, some of the best take home pay packets in Europe. Alex Carlisle. Given the favourable non-wage labour cost which the minister told us about a moment ago, how does he justify the enormous discrepancy in wages between England and Wales as an average and areas like South Wales and Northumberland where average weekly earnings are up to sixty five pounds less than the average and will he explain to us why the government is not tackling huge wage differentials in this country? Well I have to say I'm amazed at the honourable gentleman asking that question. If he had his way, and we signed up for the social chapter, those extra costs would have to be met out of those pay packets and there'd be even less for people to take in wages so the honourable gentleman shouldn't be complaining about low pay when he wants to add to the costs of employment along with the rest of his party. Michael Bates. Does my honourable friend agree with Klaus Stratzenburg who is a supervisor with Black and Decker in Lindburg in Germany who when asked to comment as to why he felt that Black and Decker were closing their plant in Germany to move it to Spennymore in County Durham, said it's simple industry must be flexible, the social chapter isn't. Hear, hear. Er Madam Speaker I I entirely agree with the sentiments which have been expressed by Black and Decker and I have to say to members opposite that when companies like Mercedes are starting to source outside of Germany, with companies like Volkswagen are starting to look er outside Europe and Peugeot and others, alarm bells should be ringing for those members who are genuinely concerned about jobs because there is no doubt that the social chapter is driving people out of work and the longer that members opposite adhere to it er then the the greater will be the er the possibility o of er people er in Europe er embracing policies which will make those countries in Europe less competitive and less able to provide employment. John Prescott. Can the minis can the minister of state in view of his many visits to America, say whether he agrees with the Secretary of State's earlier statement that American does not have a minimum wage legislation? Er I think er if the honourable gentleman checks the record he will find that my right honourable friend said that America did not have a national statutory minimum wage but I'm most I'm most grateful to the honourable gentleman for reminding us of the international comparisons because he will know that the country in Europe which has embraced his policy of a statutory minimum wage is Spain and Spain has twice the level of unemployment of the European average and twice the level in this country. Anthony In recognising the crucial importance of lower non-wage costs in Britain compared to Europe. Is my honourable friend aware of the fact that , a German wheel maker has transferred all its heavy wheel making operations to my constituency and also the carpet companies in my constituency are now going to Germany to buy up their now redundant carpet making machinery precisely because German companies can't compete in the kind of regime that they are have imposed upon them. Er I I'm most er grateful to my honourable friend for giving yet another example of how the social chapter has exported jobs out of the eleven into Britain. That's good news for Britain as long as we ensure that we never, ever sign up to the social chapter with its job destroying er job destroying characteristics. Michael . Number eleven Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker. The full range of modern apprenticeships will be offered to sixteen and seventeen year olds in September nineteen ninety five and there will be some prototypes starting at the er later this year. I note the minister didn't give er the numbers of apprenticeships and there's possibly a reason for that. The minister will be aware that in the last year of the Labour government, there was an hundred and fifty thousand apprenticeships in manufacturing alone whilst in manufacturing in nineteen ninety one there was only fifty one thousand apprenticeships. Clearly the minister's response is inefficient, it's it's quite inadequate and what is required is a much more positive stance from the minister, and can the minister tell us whether or not he will be, he will be giving the opportunity to mature entrants to the apprenticeship scheme so that people that have been thrown on the scrap heap over this last fifteen years will have an opportunity and can he tell us whether or not he's had discussions with British Coal enterprise to allow miners that have been made redundant to come into the new apprenticeship scheme so that they will have new skills which will help them to get new jobs. Hear, hear. The honourable gentleman knows that the new modern apprenticeship scheme that the Chancellor of the Exchequer announced on the thirtieth of November, is of course designed to encourage more young people to train up to N V Q level three and to encourage even more young people to train to even higher levels. Of course during the er during the course of this year we will be considering prototypes which will enable those young people to reach that high level of qualification but he will be aware that under the national training and education target there are some of those targets which are directly related to the points that he has raised and the important priority for this government is to ensure not only that we have young people training to an even higher level but through programmes like investors in people, that we encourage every member of the work force and those er who are primarily unemployed at the present time, to train to even higher levels of qualifications. Questions to the Prime Minister er Mr the the Reverend Martin Smith. Number one Madam Speaker. I've been asked to reply my right honourable friend the Prime Minister is in Moscow for a series of meetings including meetings with President Yeltsin and Prime Minister . Reverend Martin Smith. Madam Speaker has the lord president of the council noticed the response of Mr Reynolds and to Miss Mary Harney's question what representations has he had been made to United States over Gerry Adams' visit. The response was that we do not get involved in trying i in to get foreign administrations to try to tell them what decisions they should make. Would he ask his right honourable friend to press the Prime Minister to exercise the same restraint over the United Kingdom particularly Northern Ireland. Well as the honourable gentleman will know, the issue over visa was of course a decision for the U S authorities though our own advice as the house knows, er was clear. So far as the main thrust of the honourable gentleman's question is concerned er he will know that we believe it to be right and indeed in the interests of all the people in Northern Ireland that the British and Irish government should work closely together. As he knows the talks process brings together the two governments and the main constitutional parties in working together to find an accommodation, and I think that is right. Mr Stephen Er would my right honourable friend agree with me that the appearance of Jerry Adams on the Walden programme proved beyond any doubt that whatever Sinn Fein say Sinn Fein have rejected the er Downing Street declaration. Would he not join me in urging Sinn Fein to reconsider their position on this and would he also agree with me and confirm to this house that this government will never do what Mr Adams requests and that is become a persuader of the people of Northern Ireland to join a united Ireland and will he, will he recognise from me that many on these benches remain committed to the union of Northern Ireland and Great Britain. My my honourable friend will know that my right honourable friend has me on may occasions made clear the British government's position in relation to the question of persuasion. As to the rest of his question then of course I and I suspect and perhaps I know that everybody in the house would urge Sinn Fein er to consider very seriously a positive response to the joint declaration. Mrs Margaret Beckett. As ministers are still proclaiming that back to basics is the lode star guiding government policy while the Prime Minister's dodging all questions about it. Doesn't this show yet again that back to basics is making this government a laughing stock? Hear, hear. My er the right hon the right honourable lady I'm er I don't know whether I'm sorry to say or not, it's a bit out of date, my right honourable friend has just today given a clear explanation of the back to basics theme . And he has er and he has once again once again made it clear, he has once again made it clear that that is particularly important in such areas as standards in education, law and order and the provision of public services . And it applies also to the range of our increasingly successful economic and business policies. Mrs Beckett. I notice that yet again the Lord President's list and presumably the Prime Ministers doesn't include the standard of telling the truth about tax. Hear, hear Why is the government why is the government refusing to come clean about the size of the further tax increases that British families will face in nineteen ninety five? Madam Speaker, what er I and my right honourable friend will go on emphasising is the contribution which our tax policies are making to the economic strength and the improved standards of living of this country. Mrs Beckett. But as the Lord President must be aware my honourable friend, the Shadow Chief Secretary, has questions tabled to this government about the extra taxes people will pay in nineteen ninety five to which an answer is not being provided. The government must have the figures, we know the government has the figures and the people of Britain will have to pay that extra tax so why haven't they got the guts to tell them how much they'll have to pay . My right honourable and honourable friends have answered many questions and will continue to answer the questions that the honourable the right honourable lady's friends ask. But what we want to know from the right honourable lady what we want to know from the right honourable lady is when they will come clean about the public spending policies that will put taxes in this country up. Hear, hear. Michael Chersby. Is my is my right honourable friend aware that yesterday the Chairman of the board of inland revenue told the private accounts committee that some five hundred and fifty million pounds of unclaimed tax still remains to be picked up by tax payers who've been affected by the er the change in the tax regime in the last couple of years where for example women are now assessed independently. Is he further aware that that amounts to about eight hundred and eighty thousand pounds per parliamentary constituency. Will the government do everything possible to ensure that the inland revenue makes this widely known to every tax payer in the country? The, the government and I'm sure that er the inland revenue are always anxious to make sure that tax payers are properly informed of their rights er and receive their correct entitlement and I have no doubt that every effort will be made to achieve what my honourable friend seeks. Gary Wynn-Jones. Number two Madam Speaker. I refer the honourable gentleman to the reply I gave some moments ago. Mr Wynn-Jones. Madam Speaker in view of the fact that the real value of pensions has gone down for many years now following the break. Following the break following the break following the break with the link with earnings and the fact that value of pensions in the U K is out of line with virtually every other comparable European country an in view of the fact, and in view of the fact that the compensation package for V A T for pensioners will not compensate them in full as was promised,and in view of the fact that we've had extremely cold weather for the last week. Will the government now introduce a special heating allowance for pensions? Hear, hear. Madam Speaker I r the er honourable gentleman must have a rather er curious source for his statistics because what has actually happened is not merely that the government have protected the real value of the state retirement pension but the combination of our policies both in social security, in the pensions field and in the economic world have led to a position in which pensioners average real incomes have risen more than forty percent since this government took office. Lady . Number three Madam Speaker. Hear, hear. I refer my honourable friends to the reply I gave some moments ago. honourable friends join me in condemning the non-sensible advice given by liberty to truanting school children that they should defy police and isn't it absolutely typical that the party opposite tend to support them. Hear, hear. I would certainly join my honourable friend in condemning the advice which has been reported in the paper today er the government's efforts to improve the campaign against truancy and the to succeed in getting errant pupils back to school which is where they should be, I believe is and should be widely supported. For liberty to be opposing it in the way that they are shows that they don't remotely understand the best interests of our children or our schools. Mr Davidson. Er would the leader of the house then express his concern that at the end of the March when the tory party conference comes to Plymouth, there's a hundred and thirty five children are going to miss a day and a half of their schooling because of that conference. I I do not suppose they will be playing truant. Mr John Number four Madam Speaker. I refer my honourable friend to the reply I gave some moments ago. Mr Wittingdale. Has my right honourable friend had time to study the recent annual survey of grant maintained schools which shows that since becoming grant maintained, schools have been able to recruit more teachers, improve their results and offer better facilities for their pupils. Does he not therefore find it extraordinary that the Labour and Liberal parties remain committed to the abolition of grant maintained schools and that in local government they are waging a relentless campaign against G M schools, as typified by the behaviour of Essex County Council. Hear, hear. My honourable friend is certainly right that the latest survey confirms the benefit of grant maintained status. Those schools are achieving improved academic results, better staying on rates and lower pupil teacher ratios. They are popular with parents and it's no surprise that well over a thousand schools have voted in favour of such status. As to my honourable friend's confi concerns about Essex and of course his constituency borders mine. He will be as pleased as I to know that in Essex there are now sixty three secondary and fifty five primary schools operating with grant maintained status. That represents sixty percent of secondary schools and seventeen percent of primary schools and despite the er endeavour to which he refers of Essex county council, I can tell him that the latest school to decide to hold a ballot on such status is Notley High School, Braintree. Mr Brian Davies. Number six Madam Speaker. I refer the honourable gentleman to the reply I gave some moments ago. Brian Davies. Madam Speaker, when my constituents complain about high fuel bills and watch the bosses of privatised utilities coining money am I to say to them that as far as the Prime Me Minister is concerned it's nothing to do with him? Hear, hear. The er honourable gentleman's question appears to be founded on a rather curious premise, er what has what has happened what has happened to electricity prices is that have fallen six percent in real terms over the last two financial years and if he wants to know another interesting statistics I can tell him. That in nineteen seventy nine the electricity companies, then nationalised, lost the equivalent in today's prices of four hundred and sixty five million pounds. In nineteen ninety two, ninety three they paid four hundred and twenty million pounds to the exchequer in corporation tax. Hear, hear. Mr John Would my right, would my right honourable friend agree that the use of American and French and British planes to bomb the hills around Sarajevo may not necessarily produce lasting peace in Bosnia and would he further agree that if the idea is to achieve a demilitarised zone, policed effectively around Sarajevo then the best chances of so doing are by ensuring that Russian soldier in United Nations uniforms, in integrated units with British and French forces so help in the policing of that zone. Mada Madam Speaker my honourable friend knows well that the purpose er of what has been said and what is being considered about air strikes er is to is is to bring about er the er cessation of the sort of bombardment that we have seen in Sarajevo and I think everybody will want to see that effort successfully er completed. Mr George Number seven Madam Speaker Hear, hear I refer the honourable gentleman to the reply I gave some moments ago. Will the leader of the house confirm that the government is announcing today by means of written answer, an increase of fifty pence in the prescription charges. Why is there no oral statement in this house? Is it is it because having taxed the disabled and taxed the divorce the government are aff afraid to face to the music and make an announcement that they are increasing tax on the sick. It er, first of all I can confirm that an announcement is being made today er secondly secondly secondly I can confirm that it is not usual for such announcements to be made by way of oral statement. Thirdly I can tell him that eighty percent of prescribed items are now free of charge compared with sixty percent in nineteen seventy nine. Fourthly, fourthly I can tell him that prescription charges will raise nearly three hundred million pounds in the forthcoming year. Fifthly I can tell him that that will pay for over two hundred thousand cataracts operations or over seventy thousand hip operations and sixthly I will ask him to tell me where he would find the money. Nigel Evans. Number eight Madam Speaker. I refer my honourable friend to the reply I gave some moments ago. Mr Evans. Has my right honourable friend had an opportunity to see the report from three I s, investors in industry, in which they have surveyed five hundred of the companies in which they invest and the confidence factor of those businesses is higher now than it's ever been since they started the surveys in nineteen eighty eight. Isn't this further evidence that this government has the right policies for British business and the British people. My honourable friend is absolutely right. This survey shows that firms in both the North and South of the country report greater improvement than in the previous survey and have become more optimistic about their own prospects. The fact is that the whole of British business in now increasingly confident about the economy and about this government's policies for business. Time's up. Mr Blunkett. Point of order, Madam Speaker I seek your ruling on the fact that the Secretary of State for health has declined to make a statement to the house on the increase of fifty P in prescription charges. But that the the leader of the house effectively made a statement in Prime Minister's questions on the same issue, misleading the house into believing that the government were actually applying this money to patient care rather than to meeting their own political incompetence. Isn't it a disgrace Madam Speaker, that the government should duck the opportunity to make a clear statement on a sixty, on an increase which is the sixteenth since they made the promise in nineteen seventy nine that they would not increase prescription charges. Ministers of course always determine for themselves whether they answer by means of a written question or whether they come to the despatch box and make a statement. This is something over which I I as speaker, have no control whatsoever. Yes, Mrs O'Mahon, Mrs Mahon. Er Madam Speaker, I'm seriously concerned about a minister misleading the house and I seek your general guidance on a matter. Last night on the world in action programme the minister for health, the member for Peterborough, categorically denied that there was no two tier system and he said I have no evidence of a two tier system developing in the N H S. Very anxious to promote the Wales in Europe scheme because it's been very important to us, including the links that er we have been able to build up with other regions of Europe in Catalonia,, Lombardy and Battenberkaburg above all er which our our sort of strong erm er neighbours which can teach us a lot about industry and these are the areas that we will want to link up with by having this extra seat in the European parliament, er and obviously I mean there are sorts of areas where we have some sympathy with the occasional point that is made by the anti-Europe speakers on the other side. There ar there is er an excessive proliferation of European bodies with the European parliament and now the new committee of the regions and then you also have the economic and social committee. In the end something's gotta be done to sort out that excessive pru proliferation. But we er are welcoming the fact that there is a recognition of the rising population of Wales er in giving us this er this additional seat er primarily the additional population has not come in industrial South Wales which er er which er people think of perhaps as the most typically Welsh area, it's actually in two counties of Clwyd and Dyfed that are erm growing most rapidly because of lifestyle migration, retirement migration erm into those two areas and that is why the additional seat, if you can put it that way, er takes from all the other four of course, is is the mid and West Wales seat which has been compared by the honourable member for Cornwall er tonight and it has only got a population of four hundred and one thousand but on the other hand of course it is such an extensive seat because the population sparsity in that area is much, much worse than even in Cornwall and therefore it is going to stretch from South of Milford Haven to the Llanrwst area really within probably twenty miles of the North Wales coast, it's a who it's the whole of two counties plus one additional very badly populated constituency erm in in the county of Gwynedd, an awkward constituency but one that we are certainly looking forward fighting and winning to give us the five out of five er now that er the boundaries are going through tonight and obviously it's all in line really er to look at the other, the third order of course , the question of the registration of overseas voters in the nineteen ninety two election overseas voters had their first opportunity to participate in Westminster elections. The Conservatives in Wales have actually taken this principal much further they don't only allow overseas voters to participate in Welsh elections, they actually encourage them to become chairmen of our quangos as well as we've got David Robeddow chairman of Conservatives abroad in Monte Carlo i if the panel out. About quangos whatsoever, I want to something about the boundaries of the European parliament. Mr Morgan. Er I mean the er it's er, course there are three orders that we are looking at tonight, it includes the er the third order er in relation not to boundaries but to the registration of overseas er voters to enable them to vote er in this, in this er election within U K constituencies and therefore that's why the position that Mr David Robeddow as the chairman of Conservatives abroad er in Monte Carlo is relevant, er but also bec because of course the purpose of the European parliament for the first time as it will go through under these new boundaries, now is that they will be able to remedy some of that democratic deficit. They will be able to have a voice in choosing the chairman of the European commission which is like a Euro quango in a way so I do see a parallel which I want to put to you that we are remedying the democratic deficit in Europe with that giant Euro quango in the same way that we would like to remedy the democratic deficit with respect to the proliferation of quangos in Wales. A all very interesting indeed but for le let's now talk about the boundaries in the open business. Mr Roderick Morgan. Right. The other point that I Order, order order. I think we've had quite sufficient of that, let's get back to the European boundaries, Mr Roderick Morgan. Sir,i it was a terrible brief point about clad in jodhpurs, riding boots and hacking jacket but all the point that I was going to make that I've heard about riding roughshod over Europe but Mr Deputy Speaker this is ridiculous, I the er the honourable The honourable gentleman trying my patience now please get back to the boundaries of the . Point of order, Mr Bill Cash. Mr Deputy Speaker, er i you will have observed that the two front benches have spoken at incredible length and you have had to reprimand them, or certainly the opposition for er going away from the subject matter and do you not er believe that it would have been far better to allow some back benchers to get . Hear, hear I have no control over the length of speeches, but I am perfectly able to control the debate. Mr Roderick Morgan. I I'm grateful I I I'm winding up that we on this side we do believe that these additional six seats are very important because we believe that the European parliament elections are going to be very important and fighting them on these new boundaries with the minimum of delay in spite of the delay that had been caused by the government' incompetence, we regard as very important, we regard this debate tonight as very important to approve these orders because we cannot so far work out whether the government will be fighting the er the whole campaign on the basis of back to basics while the E P P will be doing it on the basis of some other manifesto, vorsprung durch technik or whatever it might be, and they'll be trying to merge those into two slogans of o of er vorsprung durch basics or or whatever it might be and this we do not know at all whether the government want to be part of Europe and whether their back benchers are gonna be willing to cooperate with the European peoples party or they take the money from the European peoples party but they don't want to participate with them in the manifesto. On this side we have an agreement in fighting the eighty seven seats and it certainly in terms of Wales, we are going to win all five of them. Hear, hear. Sir Peter Loyd. Erm,Mr Deputy Speaker I'm sorry my honourable friends have not been able to get into this debate as I would have like to have heard them. I myself am going to take only a very few minutes that are left to me to comment on some of the points that were raised in the debate. Erm, could I could I first of all start with some of the remarks made by the honourable member for Nottingham North. I was grateful to him for his tribute to the members of the two boundary committees, they did do an excellent job, they did it as he implied,slightly less un generously to the government er in a considerably shorter time than they and we would have liked but they did it very well and they did it very fairly. Er, we have been in er organising these new seats, about the same time as the Labour government took in nineteen seventy eight, er I said that when I intervened upon him and I say it again it's worth paying on the records, exactly the same pressures have been on us as were as on them. But of course er the timetable er for the constituency changes er now and the problems that we're facing are nothing to do with er any action in the compass of the government here, it is because France has yet to ratify, one hopes they will. On the regulations about candidates and voters er from E E C countries of course erm er that is a complicated er set of regulations. The er directive of December nineteen ninety three did have details that we were not expecting and looking for so there was a great deal of new work to take on board. Er, the honourable gentleman wondered whether we would ever have a truncated view again, certainly not under the ninety three legislation because that was a once off as a careful reading of the act will show, er but er we will erm and his honourable friend, the member for Perry Barns hoped er that er we would have no more reviews of European boundaries, I know because he was talking at P R but we will certainly have one new review of er er Euro constituency boundaries because as soon as the parliamentary boundaries are completed er we will have to go into a new review on that basis of all the European seats and of course the full enquiries will be held in the normal way for them. I give way to the honourable gentleman. Briefly, I thank the minister for giving way. If the French do not ratify these proposals as may appear likely now er how late can the minister leave it before he informs the people that they must fight the European elections on the old boundaries and not the new? I I I've already said that I don't accept that er the French are unlikely to ratify er I think rather the contrary but that remains finally for them er and not for me. Obviously I think the er the final time comes some time in April otherwise I think there would be, and I use the term again too much inconvenience, massive inconvenience for those fighting the election here er . Would my honourable friend give way,brief, very brief . Yes I'm most grateful, erm, would he take the opportunity to repudiate the comments made by the honourable member for Perry Barr that we will not have erm an alien voting system inflicted upon this country, forced upon this country as he said erm by the institutions of the European community. Can I reiterate what he he actually said in a meeting with Calum er Carole Degucht er last year er he said I do y the honourable, my honourable friend said I do not see that uniformity means adopting a system of proportional representation and I've yet to see a good case as to the merits of different states adopting the same procedure. We will continue to veto any proposals that do not match our culture in this country. Er er what the honourable gentleman, my honourable friend reads out is certainly my view er we will erm of course engage in any discussions on this subject that come up i in the council of ministers but it would take quite a lot of convincing I think to myself and my colleagues, that any other form of election would be an improvement on first past the post, erm and er the ar , no I won't give way cos I have about four minutes left and er I do want to make a couple of other points. If there is any, any time left the honourable gentleman shall have it, erm the honourable gentleman, the member for Nottingham North did say that he d wasn't looking to proportional representation for these elections, I think he was absolutely right, I hope that piece of good sense which he displayed then will be one that wi he will invest his thoughts in when it comes, we come back to these questions later. I'm sorry my honourable friend, the member for South Worcestershire, was unable to make all the points that he he he wanted to do as I would have been interested to hear them. But can I refer to the honourable member for Truro er again he talked about P R, he thought that it would somehow, if we move that the there for this election it would save some time. It most certainly wouldn't. Which system we would have to decide, who draws up the list er would the list be a U K one, a regional one or would it be one in the separate countries that go to make up the U K. A huge amount of discussion there, not a chance missed at all, er he wanted a separate seat for for Cornwall. Well so many other counties would like a a pt a a seat which is coterminous with them, I know Norfolk would, but the rule is that constituencies should have as far as possible, equal numbers of electors. The er commission, the committees were able to take in special geographic considerations er but er they don't actually apply to Cornwall. The problem with Cornwall being a seat on its own is that its population is too small. There was no brief given to the committee a he suggested, all the criteria that they should take into account were ones that were included in the act. The Highlands and Islands which he referred to er is er er a different matter because their geographic considerations which don't apply to Cornwall, do apply. Er, my honourable friend, the member for Aldrich Brownills,he talked about P R, I've mentioned that so he will excuse me if I don't go over his remarks. The honourable member for Perry Barn I've again referred to what, part of what he said er but Gibraltar I have considerable amount of of sympathy with the remarks that he made. It's not something that I can deal with in these orders er I'm afraid that er there was a decision within the community which was then er made part of the nineteen seventy six E C direct elections act. There is no way that we can change those without the agreement of all the other members of the community er but I know that it's something that er my colleagues at the foreign office are extremely concerned with. I sympathise with what the honourable gentleman says and certainly the feelings that are bi er of the er erm citizens of Gibraltar. My honourable friend, the member for Southend East, says does all this matter. Well in the sense that I suppose whether it matters whether there are six hundred and fifty one members of the house rather six hundred and forty or six hundred and fifty five, no it doesn't. But what the change does do is to reflect, rather more accurately than the previous arrangements, the various sizes of the electorates in the European countries and that is the logic and the sense behind it. He asks have I been in touch with the French government. No but I'm flattered that he's, he seems to be implying that my doing so might help, but that is a matter that er er doesn't lie with the Home Office and I really aren't able to intervene. He wants to know what the job of a Euro MP is, well he is applying for a Euro seat, I do wish him the best of luck and when he's been there Hear, hear when he's been there a little while perhaps he can come with all the authority of a Euro MP and tell us the answer to his own question er, the honourable member for Ashfield er referred back to the positioning of the European parliament er where it should meet, there are three sites. Er, the position of the British government is this, that it regrets er the inconvenience and the expense, er it would like to see a very sensible resolution but it knows that there will only be a resolution as I know the honourable gentleman knows by unanimity and it does not expect to see that unanimity in the future though it will work for it. Finally if I can refer to the honourable member for Cardiff West, who wound up. Er, I'm glad that he's pleased that Wales got an extra seat, it has got an extra . unclear the question is an a motion one. The question as on the order paper,say aye. Aye. The no. No. clear the lobbies. There will be no wavering from the course of reform, there will be no more compromises with people whose views are beyond the pale. Thus,how Gorbachev finally called for a free market, free elections and freedom from the Soviet Republics that want to leave the Union. The traumas of the last week will reverberate through history, are you rejoicing or is your jubilation tempered with unease. A nuclear super power is now utterly unstable, authority has broken down, the infrastructure has virtually collapsed, last night there were dire warnings of civil strike and even civil war. How should we respond? What should we do to help re-build the frail economy, prevent old scores from being settled in ways which will lead to even further insecurity. In sure that there domestic problems don't spill out across there borders. Today John Major will discuss the West response with the Americans and Douglas Hurd will meet our European partners. Should we too except part of the blame for last week's turbulent defence? Have we been beguiled by Mr Gorbachev? Have we to lack the courage to support the radical reformists and break away Republics? What hopes and fears do you have? Please do call, with me is the professor of Russian studies at London University, Geoffrey Hoskin, and on the line from Blackpool already, Peter White. What do you feel about the developments over the last er few days, are you rejoicing at them? Erm, I am tentatively erm provisionally very hopeful, but I am fearful of a number of things, I three observations in respect,observations in respect of them. I thank Mr . John Major should plead with George Bush not too let the C I A start it's own secret foreign policy deals. Either with the rump of Soviet Central Power or with the separating Republics. I think that the C I A, er, would accelerate potential for chaos, I don't think one needs necessarily to look at 1789 or 1917 too know how great will be the dangers of civil war, possibly starting from entering public boundaries dispute, or of militaristic counter coups which threatens neighbours and rather in a, possible in a way. I think we should therefore hold the fight until a clear pattern emerges and certainly avoid international incidents which might tempt the Red Army, either at Union level or in the Republics and finally I think perhaps one useful thing we could do is too assist initially, and I stress initially, well disposed Republics with bread and sausages. Freedom from Communism is not going to last the flag very long if it's identified with a freedom to starve. Liberalism and Democracy don't flourish on an empty stomach. Is, is the a a danger Geoffrey Hoskin that the instability in the Soviet Union, if one can still call it, a Union, could effect us, could spill out across its borders? Yes, there certainly is, er, there we have this huge empire on our Eastern frontiers with nuclear weapons, er, possibly descending into major civil War and communal violence. Er, people with unknown ambitions, frontiers that they want to adjust and so on. So it seems to me first of all that we should maintain a state of military preparedness, not because the Soviet Union is likely to attack us, but, simply because it represents this huge area of instability on our Eastern Frontiers, but I think also we should be more positive, I don't think we want to do secret deals in C I A style, er, in fact I think we want the maximum of open diplomacy. I think we can help the Soviet populations to get through the coming winter, with, with, food aid, cos I think there gonna have a very bumpy winter er, in the economic sense, and then I think we should also, er, be involved in sorting out the military future of Europe, because it's Europe as a whole that we're talking about now. There be NATO in the West and then there will be the ex-Soviet Union probably of some kind of military alliance in the East, and I think that we need to be in constant contact with one another discussing the changes that are going on. The Russians will be very ready to respond to this and I think even more so the other Republics. They want peace as much as we do. Peter White, this instability could result as people have been warning in Civil War, that we've already heard about venturism being er, suggested by the Russian leader Boris Yeltsin it, he might try to change the boundaries of the Soviet Republics. He might try to take over on of Russian speaking peoples in other Republics, that could lead to the sort of situation we're seeing in in Yugoslavia now. But . If that did happen, should we try to intervene, should we offer to put in some sort of peace-keeping force or should we just leave them to it? Erm, funnily enough earlier on in August, erm, I rang you up about Yugoslavia, and er, I, one of the reasons that I gave for not, the Europeans, not intervening in Yugoslavia was my fear that it might lead to the Russian military unseating Gorbachev and my, er, discard that the, the sick man of Russia, so erm, sort of parallel I, well I wouldn't parallel it with Yugoslavia, my argument in Yugoslavia was that we shouldn't intervene because we do not have primary interests with, I mean, well we clearly have general interest but we don't have primary interest, additionally in Russia is that everybody, in the world have interest but I would definitely here say that Britain should clearly do nothing per . Let me do that, let me . We, in the election and we should, and we should wait for America and try and advise America a a and, and take a view, a a it oh o otherwise madness lies, if there were people who gonna make deals with bits of Russia for this grievance we're gonna be in a terrible state. Hello , from South London,, do do you agree with that, we shouldn't get involved if civil conflict breaks out there? No, not really I think erm, er first of all I think very important that especially with the Baltic share the public the should not give the commission to the Baltic public until, unless the Republic itself guaranteed the right of the Russian and minority and the Polish minority and the and the Republic. We . We should not grant recognition to the Baltic states or any other So Soviet Republics unless they guarantee human rights? Exactly, unless they guarantee human rights er, you see, what's really happening especially in the Baltic, that is er there, there is an anti Russian feeling you know, and er there is element in in the Baltic Republic who want to er, want to deport the Russian population who've been there for maybe for the last forty five years. How, how do you know this? Do you come from there or have have you been there?. No, no, no, I see that , I have erm,Soviet was an ex-commons before, and I know, follow the Soviet history, so in a sense, I think is a very important to to give protection to the population, to, to, er to the Russian population, the Polish population and the Baltic. The same applies to the Ukrainian and the other Asian of populate. I think we should encourage this, the the signing of the treaty rather than to rush too, er, to the recognition like of German and the French. Professor Hoskin. Yes, I think the point that's made there is fair enough, er, the Russians indeed feel oppressed in the Baltic and, and probably in other Republics as well. I'm not sure that withholding diplomatic recognition is the best way to approach that, after all diplomatic recognition is concerned really with the effective control of territory and things like that rather than with moral principles, however, I think that er, when the Soviet Republics are signing their new Union Treaty or Commonwealth Treaty or whatever it's going to be called by that time, this question should be amongst the most important to be tackled there, that's to say the rights of ethnic minorities living in Republican Territories, that they should have the right to educate their children in their own language, that they should have the right to their own religion and so on and so forth. I don't know that we in Britain should be directly involved in defending those things, but there is the Helsinki process the C S C E process which is a Europe wide arrangement which among other things exist, there to ensure that these rights are observed. So I'm, I don't think that should be used as a weapon in diplomatic recognition. But do you agree that we should put diplomatic pressure that George Bush should, the Europeans should, Douglas Hurd should, and say look guys whatever you do, if it, though were prepared to recognise you as an independent state, don't take it out on the Russians? Yes I do think we should, because er this is one of the most important pot potential areas of instability, these ethnic conflicts arising within Republic sort of broken away. Chris Perry from Stockwell again in South London. Good morning. Hello, what do you feel we should do? Well, I'm very uneasy about the er, principle that some people are discussing of taking sides er, er, in the internal affairs of er other countries and in this case there the Soviet Union. Er, we did it erm, er just after 1919 when er, er we started backing the white Russians and erm, before we write off erm everything the Communist er Government of er Russia has done over the last seventy years as being evil, what I think we've got to be aware of is that we may once more be unleashing the forces of nationalism, which in 1914, and I think of going up er in the period in the thirties very much lead to erm two world wars, and er I'd like to know more about er some of the forces the so called democratic forces that are backing erm Mr Yeltsin. Well I don't think there's any danger of us unleashing the nationalism. The nationalism is there at at the end of the lead already isn't it? Yes, but er I think that erm, before we champion er, or back er people like Mr Yeltsin and say that they rep represent progressive forces, I'd like to be clear about where those forces see themselves going, because I don't see nationalism as a progressive force in the er, in the last decade of the twentieth century, I think we need to be concentrating on those people who are trying to build a new international order rather than splitting things up in the Soviet Union in a way which may be catastrophic. Professor Hoskin, how worrying is this rise of, of nationalism in the narrow sense of the word and er your concerns about adventurism by Boris Yeltsin that concerns the republics, er, which might suffer considerably, Armenia for example, has always been er some sort of conflict with its neighbour like . Yes. Well some of these national conflicts have been artificially created by the Soviet State, but of course some of them haven't like the Azerbaijan Armenian Border conflict, that's been going on for centuries, it was existed before the Soviet and it's gonna go on existing after it. Erm, I think Yeltsin's threat as it were to the Ukrainian is actually a diplomatic move, he wants Ukraine to remain within the Soviet Union, er and if it does so he's not going to make an issue of the border, but, er, if it does break away completely I think what he's saying is well there's a frontier that we're going to have to reconsider because large Eastern areas of Ukraine including huge industrial towns are predominantly populated by Russians. Now of course if Ukraine were to give er water tight guarantees of cultural autonomy to those Russians then probably that would cease to be a serious pointed issue. President of er has warned that there could be a real and serious civil war and the conflict that there is between Armenian people and Azerbaijan, I'm not sure that I understand it, but I suppose it has some similarities to so many other conflicts we see around the world, Northern Ireland, er Yugoslavia, just, it goes back hundreds of years and . Yes , well it's, it's the classic Muslim Christian Frontier, you know, it's like Southern Spain in the middle ages and so on, you know . I was being suppressed by Central Authorities for so long, but now they've taken the lid off. That's right it's been smothered under a kind of blanket, and that blanket has now been taken off. Er President of Kazakhstan of course he's president of a country where again Northern Kazakhstan has a huge Russian, compact Russian population that might want to break away. Now if these issues are badly handled, yes there could be civil war between the Republics. Percy is er ringing up now, from, from London, what are your concerns? Yes, er I'm very worried about this aspect of er whose finger er on the nuclear trigger, because the nuclear referee in the Soviet Union is divided between mainly peace states, Russia, Ukraine and , now Boris Yeltsin has said that he is going to protect his Russian minorities in Ukraine and , now I fear that if that comes to some kind of a conflict then it'll be very uncertain as to what arrangement could be made about er, honouring international agreement and about ultimately too er, any kind of nuclear er congregation. Well Boris Yeltsin this morning has said that he wants a veto over the use of nuclear weapons and about ninety percent of which I think are on Russian soil, that perhaps can be interpreted,additional safeguard to have another veto. You've got to get Boris's agreement before anyone can press the trigger or is this actually much more dangerous than it sounds, is he saying we want to take over the nuclear weapons . Well again it could be sinister if things get out of hand, but er, er, and I think the speaker's warning in that respect is fully justified. Er the former Soviet Republics are going to have to decide what kind of defensive alliance they want among themselves. Ukraine for example is already stated in its er declaration of Sovereignty that it regards itself as a non nuclear zone, so they're not going to want nuclear weapons for themselves, and er, I imagine that the former republics will have to quite a a comprehensive military alliance perhaps on the lines of NATO and that nuclear weapons will be vested in that alliance. Russia will be the leader of that alliance and therefore like America NATO will probably have the decisive say on what's done with those nuclear weapons. That's how I see things evolving, er but it must be said that Russian statesmen have got to have this self restraint not to abuse those nuclear weapons just as the United States has had to. Of course if independent Republics do get control of their own weapons, it's blown out of the water, their non proliferation treaty caught you hasn't it? Yes of course it is and er, that, that points er to the the danger of of a the disintegration of the Soviet Union, I, I . This is an area in which we legitimately can get involved do you think? Beg your pardon? Do you think this is an area in which we can legitimately get involved? Yes most certainly because er the point is that er we're involved er with the erm, er and the honouring of the start of an agreement, and er I think that the West er therefore has er direct er responsibility also in this matter and er I fear that er ten percent, er alright ten percent of the nuclear weaponry is in Ukraine is in and er we do not er have some kind of proper arrangement being er agreed too. Then er even one percent of nuclear weaponry that er could be used is a danger to world congregation and I fear very much er that unless there is some kind of a proper cast iron guarantee er with the successor to the Soviet Union er there's going to be much er trouble especially if er there is an ethnic violence er erupting on the borders and again er Boris Yeltsin has said that er, er he is going to want to control er the position on the borders, well he may not get the agreement that he seeks, er one hopes that he will, but he, he may not. Okay from er High Wycombe, are you fearful of what's developing or are you delighted at events? I'm absolutely delighted. I'm, I'm, quite amazed that, that, the question has even been asked, you know, that er that, that, er is this a good thing, I mean er presumably the people that are arguing that it's not a good thing and that are concerned about events are actually condoning imperialism, er these people seem to think that it's okay for a country to be occupied er like Poland was occupied by Germany and Czechoslovakia and France, that's okay er and in fact you know we should just turn a blind eye to it and just let it carry on forever . I'll be arguing that the end of imperialism and communism might be a wonderful thing, but that period of instability, that period of change can be very dangerous. Well of course, and er, and er Lithuania has right from the beginning er embarked on a, a sort of a campaign for independence in a most impeccably peaceful way. Despite your English accent are you Lithuanian? My father's Lithuanian. Hm, hm. I sort of regard myself as a sort of a dual nationality now, but that's one thing I'll be looking at, er in the next few months hopefully. Yes, I, obviously Lithuania is the, is the country I'm most concerned about. We've had er callers earlier on suggesting that there could be problems between Russians and Lithuanians if an goes there, which seems almost certain it will now. Would you be happy for Britain, European partners and the Americans to recognise Lithuania's independence while at the same time saying look don't take it out on Russians who are living within your borders, observe human rights and all the rest of it, is, is that our affairs, and our business? Well I did hear that point, it's, it's interesting because in fact Lithuania er President Boris Yeltsin signed an agreement in July, er which effectively Russia recognise Lithuania as an independent state, it was the second country in the world to do that, er all of this was sorted out in a very er, good, er peaceful, sensible way, there, obviously Russia has concerns in Lithuania er not least the district. All of that was sorted out and agreed and that's the way to progress in these matters. People get a very negative attitude, they think that these, like there was a caller recently that sort of equated nationalism with er, with you know Nazis and, that's completely wrong, I mean, but, and, and, you're all in the news you're always hearing about the radical nationalist deputies as if they're some sort of strange breed of person, but in fact they're just like the MPs in our House of Commons, democratically elected people, sensible people who want peace, they want prosperity for their country and er, there's, there's no mad empire imperial ambitions, Lithuania has no need for an army or anything, but er apart from just maintaining er internal er control, but er people have a very strange attitude a very anti nationalists, I find it curious. Would you like Lithuania to be part of some sort of erm, Soviet Federation, voluntarily I mean just some loose trading or defence partnership? I'm, I'm sure that would happen, but Lithuania, if, if it had the er complete independence to er choose it's own trading partners, it's own defence partners, then it would make sense for Lithuania to have some sort of a a trading arrangement with the old communist block and . Ra rather , so the E C can become a member of NATO? Well, I, I, the way I see it going is that the E C will expand to not only Lithuania about being but also other, other, er forms of Soviet Republics. I was struck too by the way in which we started the programme by considering the dangers of the situation and there's no doubt that that's correct, but it is important to say, perhaps the most important thing is that the end of isn't in the Soviet Union and the break up of the Soviet Empire is an enormously positive event for all of us, for the citizens of the Soviet Union and for us in the West it gives the opportunity for much greater stability, real stability, peace and prosperity then ever existed under the old regime. With all that said of course the transition period is going to be very dangerous for the kind of reasons we've been talking about already and I think is right too when he says that er, the so called nationalist in the non Russian Republics, if you're a Democrat in a empire, then you are inevitably a nationalist as well because you want your nation to have its natural human rights. Andrew Campbell from er Coggeshall in Essex, what do you feel about this? Erm, I think it's probably inevitable but most of the Republics will become independent, but I think the idea of them becoming independent in their present borders is very worrying indeed cos that, most of the borders are grossly irrational and becoming independent with those borders ethnic conflicts built into it, erm, and I think unless there's some sort of er negotiations about what border these countries will have before they become inde independent, we could see quite a lot of bloodshed. In fact some of the Republics have such such a mixed population, it's almost impossible to see how they could be separated out,Russians and Tartars erm, and all the rest of it, all intermingled to some extent. Is it possible Geoffrey Hoskin to have some sort of sort out, where people could be encouraged, compensated perhaps to leave their villages and towns and go back to the Republic from which their parents or grandparents originally came? Yes, I don't think changing borders is the right way to approach this problem. In some cases population intermingled there's bound to be conflict whatever happens, it seems to me that these problems can only be solved, first of all by ensuring that all eth ethnic groups have the right to their own culture, their own language, their own religion and so on and to exercise them in their own territory, but they're not discriminated again in jobs and housing and education, er and then also as you say to help with state sponsored finance people who do decide that they want to migrate, that they don't want to live in somebody else's Republic, that they do want to move across the border into, as it were, their own Republic. Adjusting frontiers is historically enormously difficult, there may be two or three very clear cases in the Soviet Union when it came be done without much dispute by general agreement, but on the whole I reckon that observation of human rights is the way to approach this, and then of course the er growth of economic prosperity if it comes will actually help to ease these problems. Andrew Campbell here we are handing out advice well intentioned, but I wonder if er Russians and Kazakhstanis and all the rest aren't going to say mind your own business, leave us to sort this out. Erm, well, I am a bit doubtful about Geoffrey Hoskin's point of view, erm because he's assuming erm, sort of democratic goodwill etc, on the part of these governments and I don't think that's necessarily so. I mean I think the most blatant example is the which is erm ninety per cent Armenian population. is part of which I think is just ridiculous and will be a nice well meaning democratic tolerant guy in but considering the history of those two countries I rather doubt it erm and I, I think the best way of securing er the safety of that population is actually to change the border before the borders are are fixed and settled and before these countries actually become independent. Geoffrey Hoskins are already reports of erm an enormous number of refugees trying to get out of parts of the er Soviet Union , in Poland I think in one area they've closed the borders having let through twenty seven thousand refugees in one day, there are now huge tailbacks of traffic at the border post. Henry Kissinger warned yesterday this might happen, do you fear that we could face a flood of refugees? Yeah, yeah . Well it is possible of course and I think that er the European Nations, including those in Eastern Europe er ought to be getting together to consult about what we can do, because I don't think it's right simply to send these refugees back as the er Italians have been doing, er in fact there likely to be amongst . They've been doing it to Albanians at . Yes to Albanians that's right. Erm, I think these refugees are likely to include the most enterprising, the best trained and so on, they'll be a grave loss to the Soviet economy, erm, but I think they're a potential gain to us and er, I don't think that, I think therefore we should make arrangements to try and absorb them if we can and, and let them contribute as they undoubtedly will to our own economies. Well what do you think if there's a mass migration from Soviet territories, should we absorb those immigrants into the United Kingdom and the rest of Europe, it's just after half past nine, you're listening to Radio Four, this is Nick Ross, we're discussing, as you've no doubt gathered, events in the Soviet Union and how they affect us, what, if anything we can do to influence them. Graham Bishop is on the line from Brighton in Sussex. Hello there, erm I was calling in to sort of object to the erm whole presentation of recent events in the, in the Soviet Union. Firstly I don't think there's a substantial disagreement between Yeltsin and the so called hard liners, except over the question of timing so as to win the market and someone's introduced them to the Soviet Union, and secondly I don't think you can treat Boris Yeltsin as some kind of democrat at all,on August the twelfth he threatened to rule Russia by decree just at the definitely senators and the Russian nationalism and he built some sort of support and I, I think it's very wrong to characterise the events there with the revolution, more it's been, it's been much more of a power struggle between different sections of the you know, the elite there along the lines of the events in Romania. Can we just the two things you've said. Firstly that, he's a hardliner erm just like the others, I mean are you talking about and and and the people who lead the, the coup and that you're saying Yeltsin's no different from them? I think the key point is Yeltsin, like Gorbachev, unlike the coup leaders is part of a very privileged elite in the Soviet Union and the difference is that to express the erm, you know trying to put them, advance themselves in society at the expense of the rest of Soviet's society, applicable difference is erm much more inventive and sort of packed on the end to justify er that, that the moves they are making, I mean at, you know like I say that can be seen in the very democratic step that Yeltsin's been taking since he's been the Russian president. I must say Professor Hoskin I was rather struck by pictures in the papers today, yesterday of Boris Yeltsin standing over a boar he'd shot, it was strongly reminiscent of pictures we've seen of the former president of Romania, CeauÅŸescu. Right and indeed , er I, I must er correct the impression that Yeltsin is anti-semitic, I don't think there's any evidence of that at all, er, a and, er I, I would regard that really as a slander on his character, but er, er Russian nationalist, this is a very delicate question. We've always in the West used the term Russian nationalist as one of abuse, er and that it seems to me as, because it's always in the past been associated with empire, Russian nationalists in practice have oppressed other people, but after all why should the Russians not be patriotic just as the British as er a citizen or a Frenchman can be patriotic, er provided that that doesn't go with oppressing other people. Now it seems to me that er Yeltsin's that kind of Russian patriot and he's shown it by concluding treaties as equal partners with Ukraine, with the Baltic Republics and so on er in which he said that er Russia is no longer going to interfere in their internal affairs, so they they are equal partners in these treaties. So that. But that that contradicted today, when he's not only threatened to intervene against the Republics that have been attacking their minorities but erm, since he's become Russian president he's constantly threatened and the area of and you know denied it sort of national . I think the the key point about patriotism is one reason why perhaps people in, in Britain and so on shouldn't be patriotic too, but if you see the rather cynical attitude of the Western countries towards recent events, not just in Russia but right across the Eastern block,very good example was condemned, erm but when, following the massacres erm, the West has gone on to sort of do deals with the winners and cultivate links er with the people responsible for that massacre, the killing of the Soviet Union went the other way and consequently erm that's where you know Western resources are directed. I'm sure if the hardliners have won, now that is erm,would be dealing with them just as now. There is a human characteristic that we like to think, see things in, in very clear cut ways and you're saying we shouldn't go overboard and just think that Boris Yeltsin because of his courage standing on the tank and, and helping to prevent the coup, we shouldn't go overboard and think that he's er the most marvellous human liberal democrat who ever walked the earth. I think, I think we should see it for what it is, which is a power struggle inside a ruling elite in the Soviet Union for which we don't really have an interest in taking sides. Er, of course er, Yeltsin does sometimes take own measures and that's because the situation genuinely is very dangerous er and er, I think that everyone would agree that really. Anthony Kenny from Essex, what's your view on this? Good morning Nick. Hello. Nice to speak to you, erm, I'd just like to say that er, take me now as a, as a normal chap from England who looked across right through his life at Russia as the big bad bear and eight years ago I had the opportunity of going over there, just an ordinary chap and er, of course , there's so much about the Soviet Union we don't know, we did, we, erm, for instance we were over there in 1982 when they were celebrating sixty years of the incorporation of the saints into the Soviet Union. And I didn't even realise at that time that there were fifteen states in the Soviet Union. Now we travelled the best part of the Ukraine and we also dipped into and er we were there about a month, just under a month, and erm one of the impressions that I got there, just as an ordinary chap, no, not learned politically so I can't speak on the level er of most of your callers today, but er, I realise that here you had er people, in actual fact my my comment was the country's half finished, everywhere you went there were building constructions so far incomplete, er projects underway and you've got the impression that they did need communism in a way to make the thing work er, the er, let's take the Ukrainians, I mean that, that's where the Cossacks come from and they love a good time, er those sort of people in a way need a strong government. Are you, you saying that things could get worse now that erm communism is gone and is going to become even more impoverished . What I'm saying, yeah . You've got it in one. What I, what er, I in fact, what, what I did notice in that time that I was there, was that er, when you talk about the old guard, the young people, anybody under forty er they were a little bit cynical about this communism lark and Lenin and the rest of it, they all went to say,they would all go to Lenin's er statue and in effect have a blessing from Lenin, we went along with them on one occasion, very pleased to do it, but you you got the impression that the younger generation were already in 1982 and the people now that are out there with Yeltsin were shying away from communism, now the thing is this that Gorbachev came along in my opinion exactly at the right time and tried to move things a little our way a little way from the hardline, which obviously couldn't be sustained. And perestroika has actually caused economic problems not, not resolved them. Yeah, you're right, and that's what I'm saying, they have tried and I think they've let Gorbachev down. Let me put this to Geoffrey Hoskin, Professor Hoskin we've heard of a people ruled by Tsars and then by , is there going to be any thing but anarchy now? Will democracy really work? Well of course there isn't very much of a democratic tradition in Russia that's quite true, but that's very different from of the Russians and all the Soviet people and saying they're simply incapable of living under democracy. Any nation has to learn democracy er, and it seems to me that all the people of the Soviet Union have shown over the last four or five years a lively interest in politics and considerable to participate in politics, er one of the problems is of course is that they've been doing so, too much and in too disorganised a way, they're going to have to get together . That's what I'm saying , they need, they need just a little, in fact we do here you could argue, er, I feel that all the elements there are of a turning into something a bit ugly, I think, I think they were very quick to drop those statues down, now I know, I know the fellow who in, who set up the K G B could have been the most popular bloke in the Soviet Union, but nonetheless, er he was down within a day, I hear this morning that Yeltsin's talking about border changes and quite frankly they're moving too quick and Gorbachev at least was providing a bit of restraint, and I think it, they want to think in terms of decade. Ian Ian Cuthill from Hitchin in Hertfordshire, are you also concerned about instability there? I certainly am. Erm I'd liked to discuss the point about what aid we can give to try and promote the stability and the event of prosperity of the country. Now the present British government is very anxious to give the Russians our financial expertise rather than practical help to promote a market economy. You think our financial expertise doesn't amount to practical help? I certainly don't, because erm, according to this policy the first thing the Russian people have got to put up with is a high level of unemployment. Now I suggest that we . We've become quite expert at that haven't we? Er, this is the point I'm going to make, this is absolute hypocrisy. I mean after thirty years of policies our own real economy is shambles, growing unemployment. Now I suggest that er don't you, it's vast numbers of Russian people milling about with nothing to do is certainly not going to promote stability. What the Russians want is technical help and equipment, now our own industry is in decline er yes, particularly in machine tool industry, and I think the first thing we should do is to go over there and see what it is they actually needed, what they actually need right now, er one of your previous er correspondence, er speaker turned round and said well they've got half finished buildings and things like that, I mean er, people have got to be put to work because people in co-ordinate employment is the only source of real wealth, but the market economy isn't interested in promoting real wealth, I mean it's only interested in what it can get out of an economy not what it gives . If, if were going to give them transfer real wealth, machine tools and all the rest. Yeah. How's it going to be paid for? Are we going to divert er an aid programme from the third world to prevent people starving and so forth to the Soviet Union or are we going to have er funds from the National Health Service, from Education, who's going to find the money? Erm, is the money really, erm, this is, I think this is a bit of a bogey. A country can produce these days as much money as it wants. Only, only if it creates inflation. Er, yes, but if you're exporting the stuff why should it create inflation? I mean this is the the cause of inflation surely is to have more, too much money taken too few goods and if you produce more goods this helps to deflate, er we didn't have inflation thirty years ago. Well this is a marvellous new form of economics, if we could just create things and er export them without getting paid for them and it wouldn't us. That's right. We could . We could because the sense of wealth is people at work have people scratching their backsides doing nothing erm is absolute, er you know is lunacy. But the . The fundamental point that you make is we shouldn't be simply offering good advice or, or bad advice, we should be offering real aid, real goods. That's right. And doing so for the goods . Er the goods that what, not goods that we want to give them like junk food and ludicrous fashions, to find out what it is that they want this of equipment and no, and don't forget the know-how, I mean we are, we have a hell of a Know-how in this country which is not being used. Okay. Let me get to Somerset to and Commander Michael Blake, are you a Naval Commander incidentally? Yes, I'm retired. Er, do you think we should er give substantial aid to the Soviet Union? Well the er point I'd like to make is that as of last Saturday the er, erm, the Soviets were building a new submarine every forty days, they're spending thirty five percent of the G N P. on armaments and erm, I, wouldn't it be prudent to insure that erm they stop spending all this money on armaments before any aid is given to them? I thought it was twenty five percent of their it's a big sum anyway. No, I ,it's an enormous sum I mean I don't think anybody in the West is spending er as much as ten percent on armaments and er I heard a on television not so long ago saying that in eighty percent of their industry is on armaments. Geoffrey Hoskin. Yes, I think that we could actually kill as it were two birds with one stone here er, the conversion of military industry into civilian industry has begun in the Soviet Union but it was going very slowly and part of the reason for that is, is it's very expensive, now that seems to me a worthy recipient for Western direct economic aid. But another reason is presumably in the past, because the military was terribly powerful, much more powerful before the coup than now and Gorbachev was frightened to start dismantling it too . Precisely that's why this is an excellent moment to offer precisely that kind of aid because those obstacles have been largely removed. So Commander Blake we should not just offer a stick saying that we we aren't going to help you until we start dismantling your military programme, we should offer carrots too, do you agree? Well I, I I, I don't mind how it's done but erm I hear nothing on the many people on, you know, who talk about erm giving aid erm a dread from this problem is this vast erm amount of the G M P and going on armaments and going on one way and another. I would have thought they've simply, it had to be agreed that that was stopped and then as the professor has said, I mean we give all the aid we can to turn their erm military er industry into erm, what was it,instead of guns. We move to another caller from in Surrey. What's your prospective on this? Well I really feel very uneasy about present events in Russia and er, particularly on a simplification on world politics what on . I just feel in an absence of a Russian from the balance of power gonna leave the, the arrogance of the United States totally unchecked. When you say, talk about the Middle East, are you from that part of the world? I am from Iraq, yes. From, from Iraq. Yes. Erm, interesting, president Saddam Hussein has er also deplored er the ending of the coup and the fact that er Gorbachev has backed . Let me, let me interrupt you here, I must support Saddam Hussein, I don't believe he carried his own policies, I'm concerned about the Iraqi people themselves. You know I mean this has, this has been used accused Saddam Hussein has er is a, is a supporter of er the coup, but er, the real implication I am talking about is the problem. Hm, hm. I think the solution here is, a, a, a,and er future will be totally unbalanced. You raised a very, very significant issue that I haven't heard much addressed in recent days and we know that there hasn't really been a super power of the Soviet Union and any other military sense for the last couple of years. He has, he has since the Gulf War. I mean look at, look at the conduct of the Gulf War. Absolutely, and this is again having enormous implications particularly in the entire world. . And now you, you gonna have the whole resources will be totally controlled by one super power . Geoff Geoffrey Hoskins is it a good thing that we no longer we have too super pow powers viewing for authority and all the rest of it or are you as worried as ? On the whole I think it's a, a good thing, er it's only five or six years ago that an historian called Paul Kennedy published a book saying that America was in decline as a super power, er and in fact I think what's happening is that er, there are, there are going to be clusters of super powers now in the world and they're all more modest than American and the Soviet Union were a few years ago. There's the United States, there's Europe, Western Europe, plus central Europe now, there's Japan and there will be the Ex-Soviet Union in some form, er those arrangements will be complicated, but they will be less ca cataclysmic as it were, the danger will no longer be of Armageddon, there'll be very serious, could be very serious conflicts that could arise. just come back. I don't agree at all. Sorry. I don't agree at all. Do you not think that up to now Middle Eastern countries and some other nations and people as well have been of the super powers in their giant struggle against each other, but now the United States may be able to take er, if you like a more mature and more relaxed attitude. Maybe. I am sorry I d d, I agree with you on one one point that the Middle Eastern er, er government that of the super power from, from the reception, but what really happened in the Gulf War is a typical reflection of the injustice of how the war was being conducted. It was conducted in a in a devastating effect because was totally unchecked and America got the upper hand and they simply played the game by their own favour without giving due consideration to humanitarian or, or even the justice er element and this, this is how the world's gonna be, and America is an arrogant super power. What's . It's certainly something we're all gonna have too er adjust too, thank you for pointing it out that the United States is going to have such enormous influence er from, from now on, we're all going to have to get used to it and er get used to how to deal with it. from, from Coventry, what do you feel about what's been happening in the Soviet Union. Well the thing that concerns me is the readiness in which er rushing to ban the communist party. I would rely on Mr Yeltsin and Mr Gorbachev that the only possible way in which they could have reached the eminence they have today is through membership of the party. There must be many, many able Russians who take the same line as the only way forward could be incorporated in a democratic Russia and very, very substantially contribute to its recovery. you you, you've been a communist yourself? Let me give you my family history shall I? Oh, oh, if you can do it in a sentence. I'll do it very quickly. I am the great grandson of the founder of what is now the greatest, one of the greatest in, in Leningrad. My name is as you know and company that found these was which was my Uncle and , well erm, about Mr Yeltsin and Mr Gorbachev to lead a Russian political book and I could which was the name of the company today. Now in this book they will read that the progressive forces of the late eighteen hundreds and the early nineteen hundreds will endeavour to educate the workers from the er, mythological and textile industries were not basically communists. Let, I . But were social democrats . Forgive me I don't want to go back that far, but, but let me just put the point you've made to Professor Hoskins. The communist party should not be banned, it is true that many members of it did support er an coup, on the other hand so many people joined the communist party for advancement and it's not very democratic to ban a party which has had su such power and such membership. Well first of all it hasn't been banned er a suspended it while it's role in the coup . Disband it . Just a moment, suspended it and then Gorbachev, his first secretary has the right to do it, disband the central committee and then what lower party er bodies do is up to them. However what, what I think is the most important aspect of this, the communist party is not and never has been a party in the normal sense of the term, it's a closed shop for the ruling establishment of the Soviet Union and therefore it's quite simply incompatible with politics. Eighteen months ago it gave up its monopoly of politics but it continued to exist and it continued really as a kind of dog in the manger to prevent the er establishment of normal multi-party politics. Therefore it seems to me that the communist party really has to disappear, it's a good thing that it's own general secretary has disbanded it, I anticipate that it will break up into a number of political parties, perhaps one kind of social democratic party on the left and another, if you like a kind of Russian unionist party, on the right, erm, but as the communist party it's simply incompatible with the emergence of democracy in the Soviet Union. Let's move on if I may to Dr. Nora Worcester calling from Cambridge. Hello. Hello Dr. Worcester what do you feel about all this? Well, er, I became er, unhappy with the communist party many years ago because it didn't follow the philosophical teaching on which works, the erm, erm, dialectical materialism. They said that in a political situation, if you had one side you could call it the thesis, say capitalism was the thesis and communism was the other side and that was the antithesis and that these two would one another and it was only when they came together and got their good points both of them adopted, that one was really going to get a satisfactory solution. Do you think we've got a satisfactory solution in the Soviet Union? Some kind of social democracy in Russia, erm on the other hand in central Asia as for example, I think it's quite likely that former communists, although they may disavow their former allegiance, will in practice take over as national communist parties and continue to run their economies, well there will be private economies but with a large state sector and run on a pretty tight reign. So I think the, the answer is we're going to see a variety of things, there is a tendency I think amongst er Soviet Citizens at the moment to regard the market economy as they used to regard communism, that's to say there's a kind of ideal which will bring about universal prosperity, and relief on all their worries. There is a certain danger there, cos in fact er, the market economy in some ways is not as pleasant as, as that suggests. Hazel Clarke from Okehampton. I, I've been in Germany recently, selling., I took a number of our British products over and I saw half a ton of my cheeses in the German supermarket. Also while there I was working from eight in the morning till seven at night. I was able to talk to the German customer and the people on the floor, who are excessively worried about the number of people coming in from the East, not only East Germany but they're very, very worried about people coming in from Eastern Europe, and secondly there was so much East European food that was for sale in Germany at very low prices and there's food that used to go to the Soviet Union. Now it's made the people, I have friends in Moscow, who are saying that they are losing a lot of their food supplies, because the West are taking the most throw down prices so that the Yugoslavs and the Romanians can get the goodies they want for us. Throw down the prices from the West but of course good high real foreign currency for Soviet Union. Exactly, but also it was food for them. Hm, hm. And they are losing their tradition of the food that they have been getting from Eastern Europe. So what can be done? I, I think that we, it's really like taking chocolate from the mouths of babies, to take food from people in Eastern Europe who are rather desperate. It really, we need to encourage the trade that Eastern Europe and the Soviet Union and if it, one of the former speakers said, we need to give them aid and ascent for people who can, erm, show them what to do. They need the technical help. Actually,the speaker that was talking about this was suggesting we give them an enormous amount of real tangible assets, er without it costing us anything. Now I know, know of no law of economics which would permit that, would you be prepared for us to pay a lot out of tax payers' resources to give to the Soviet people, to help their economy, to to help them survive this very difficult transition period? I don't think it's so much monies that they need. What they need is certain products. It, it comes to the same thing doesn't it?. And I un well as I understand it from, from, from the friends in Moscow their, their traditional industries are very archaic, they may have erm, the expertise in, in the armament section, but the other things, what they need is some of our engineers and we've got a lot of engineers who were working overseas and at the moment aren't. If we could send some of the people over there, to help them to retrain things and reorganise things. So, Professor Hoskins that would be a relatively cheap way, it'll still cost money, but relatively cheap way of, of, of really helping these . It would be a relatively cheap way, and other things we could also get European Community, this isn't a British problem it is a world problem. Yes, Professor Hoskin . Yes, yes we have got some unused resources that could be er, er, diverted towards the Soviet economy, food surpluses for example, the coming winter is going to be very difficult in the Soviet Union and I think direct food aid may well be necessary. We don't have to worry as much as we used to about its being misused by the party state apparatus for corrupt erm, then of course there's, them, the, the, the problem of longer term aid, how we help the Soviet Union integrate itself into the world economy. This is undoubtedly an all European problem, United States, Canada, Japan, everyone else should be involved, er I think we should probably identify with the Soviet's aid and help, hm, key projects like the conversion of military industry into consumer goods, er, like transport and communications, key areas of the economy where relatively small amounts of investment could produce big returns, and then finally it seems to me we should be extending to the Soviet Union for membership of er, international financial organisations like the world bank and the international monetary fund, whichever in criteria of course for helping countries and for integrating international aid to those countries. Graham calling from in Sussex, is it the economic aspects that concern you most? Yes, well the economic effect on our own country, well when I say under, er Europe, er, with this proposal that er, we have to open up our markets er for the benefit of the Soviet, er because, that is going to cost er, what they're, what they're asking for, not only in Soviet but also across Eastern Europe is that the agricultural market, the steel, and the textile market, all the most sensitive areas, should be opened up to them, and that's going to shed a, a great increase in unemployment er within the, within the common market. Are you a good old fashion protectionist? No, not at all, er, but I, I, I, am someone who believes you've got to have level playing fields, which we do not have, er or won't have, er with the implementation of the common market er, regardless of any relationship with the Soviet Union in 1992, er after all to, what has not been published very much, er is that , you know, got to take into account indirect as well as direct and erm, if you look at for instance the United States er which is constantly packing the common market people, which is of course , er I'm, I'm going to have to cut you off, cos we're running out of time, but I very much take the point you're making, that it could've had this trade effect on us, just in the last ten seconds Professor Hoskin, is it possible to predict what's going to happen in the Soviet Union over the next six months, is it gonna be for good, or, or,. It's quite unusually unpredictable at the moment. I think the long term results of this are entirely good, but in the short term there's going to be major instability, making life possibly quite nasty for everyone. Professor Hoskin, and to all of you who called and listened, thank you until next Tuesday, bye, bye. All here. Yeah. Well, before we start, once again, we're on air. Recorded by, what's it called? The Corpus, Erm, British Corpus. British Corpus. That's, best language, best behaviour, this evening. That's a microphone. Incredible. This is new, you've gotta explain, cos I was a bit concerned last night, unless you know about it. Yeah, what is what is the reason behind this? It's M I Five. Collaborate. It was the, the British Corpus asked us if we would be willing to record the last council meeting, because they wanted to, erm, get dialects and accents and use of words from different parts of the country, and they were so enthralled by our display, they've asked for a further two meetings. So we did last night's, and now we're doing tonight's. And they couldn't understand the vocabulary. Yeah, we had too many oohs and ahs. There's two more. I think there's no real point to, to start them with before, is there? Seeing as we're gonna ask young ladies to, to talk. Only thirty second early. Right, well, good evening, ladies, gentlemen and members of the public, and erm, the first thing I'd like to do is to ask the youngest of the young ladies at the end of the table, who have come to talk to us, and I'm not quite sure, let me guess which one, but I reckon that that's Miss and, and that's Miss . Have I got it right? So we've got, I did have the first names somewhere. Katy an Katy and Amy. That's Katy, no Amy and Katy, who gonna talk to us about project they're doing, which is called a dog called Mock. Okay, so ov over to you two. You ready? No, Well, the book in her own time, produced these eight books of which four we're going to put into print. Perhaps you'd like to pass them are you, erm,you could have a look at them. The teachers felt that they'd put so much effort into it, that it er, should be taken a stage further, and, perhaps go towards printing, and to this end, they erm, approach from John . Er, this entails erm, producing a book exactly the same size as the Trade Directory. It will have the same feel to the cover, forty pages and er contain four of the stories. Erm, to this end, we need about six hundred pounds for the printing, and then all the proceeds will go towards the legal and also to buy additional equipment for the primary school. Erm, it's their last year at the primary school so it would nice to leave a couple of benches or something like that behind, for the old'uns to sit on. But it's all their own work, they're at the moment re-drawing every single page of the four stories that will be in the book, and I think that Amy's got, this is the work in progress. Erm, the book here is the one that she's working on at the moment. Some stories they've chosen to use. And you can see actually Hello, So they've all Yeah. Got to be re-drawn in black and white, that'll be gone over Hello, okay, my love, yeah, I will do finish, okay, okay, fine, see you then, Happy Christmas, bye . putting a lot more detail in, rather than, any Beano Annual you should buy, there is always things in the background that draw you eye in to the picture, so Amy's putting a lot more detail into the picture as it coming up for re-drawing. Erm, we've got to set out , haven't we, Amy? And as I say, Bill is doing it all at cost, so, you know, he's not making anything out of it, himself. Erm, we've got a few sponsors, and also a few places that people have agreed to sell the book and display, so Nurseries, Redferns, Malcolm , College Bookshop, Toy and Candy, erm, a bloke from Manchester Insurance has given me a couple of days to sell the book out there. At the lunchtime, they've got a big social club, erm, and all main hospital fund raising coffee mornings and events will be able to sell the book there. So, you know, there is an end to the product, we can see when And,an and, and in our Portsmouth Information Centre. Great, that would be lovely, yeah. And I also hoping to contact the Parent Teacher Association, of the schools that the hospital will service, and see if they will sell the books at their stall as well because it's all to benefit hospitals, you see. So there are outlets. We hmm, now, young ladies, how long have you been working on this? A year? Yeah. And erm, how much time do you spend on it? They te it, they tend to do a lot like in the holidays and half term, when they can get together, because obviously there are other demands on them with Brownies and Guides and stuff like that. But it's really when you're together, you work on them more, don't you? Right, the production cost is say six hundred pounds, right? Yeah. And you've raised some sponsorship. We've raised about two hundred, just over two hundred. Great. Has anybody got any questions for these young ladies, or their mums? Can sponsor money? Sorry? That they would raise as a sponsor what to give, or, give us some idea, what er, Yeah, they, they've got sponsorship down beneath the two hundred pounds. Paul. They seem to work very hard on these. Have you any idea how many books you might actually sell? Erm, we're no we're not sure about selling. I mean, this, the six hundred pound will produce one thousand books. That gives us the potential of raising two thousand pounds, because we intend to sell them for one ninety nine. We've been told if we go over the two pound, they won't sell, sell so well, erm, so really I'm not too sure, but er, I, I can work on bigger, er, like I got this couple of days off living Manchester, I'm sure if I approach erm, you know, the police, they might give me a couple of days selling out there. Can I I'm sure of ways and means. Mm. can I ask you, it's a thousand pounds to sell two hundred and fifty of each of the four? No. No, this book, well it's Will two thousand of this book which contains the four stories Contains the four of th oh, right, that's fine. Yeah, yeah. So, what we've got is four of these books that will go and condense into one copy, Yeah. and two thousand copies of, a thousand copies of that. One thousand of this, yeah. Right. Yeah, Same size. Who's gonna pick which four go in, then? They both are. They both are. Yeah. And have you got any ideas which ones they are? Yes, Gail, you show them. that one. please. and er, this one. That's the one where it's properly drawn up, is it? Yeah, and the dog show. And the dog show. And the seaside one. And the seaside. and the seaside. Right, have we got any timescale on this? Erm, yes. It will be produced by Easter. Right. Yeah, we've drawn out deadlines for the books to be copied and, and it will be launched at Easter. Erm, colours. Er, we've got black and white with three other colours. Er, blue red and yellow, which mixed together should also give us purple, green and pink. So we're probably talking about eight different colours. Right. We thought if anybody . Right, now. First thing, I wanna thank you for coming in. I wanna thank you for the initiative you've shown. I can't tell you till we've had our meeting what we're gonna decide. Whatever happens, we wish you very well. I think I speak for everybody and say that we wish you well in this project. And if either mum likes to phone in, or come into the office tomorrow, by tomorrow you'll know what we can do, or if we're gonna do anything to help you. Okay. Right, so we won't keep you waiting. We'll get it sorted tonight. Thank you very much. Okay. Thank you for taking the time and come to see us. Anyway, I think these young ladies deserve a round of applause for what they've done so far. Don don't to be afraid to come and see us again, alright? It's quite nice to have people here. We'll be selling copies next time. Right before we actually st plans, please. Now, before we, again before we start the actual meeting proper, I've invited Carol along, you'll see that we've got er, oh sorry, for those who don't know Carol. leading night in Rio. And you'll see we've got an application up for Rio tonight. We thought it would be a good opportunity for Carol to come along and tell you, as quickly as she can, Yeah. where we've got to with our recycling initiative, and then we can look at that grant in the light of what we've been told by Carol. Okay. I'll sit round here and you can see me. Right, just like reading that through, I'll give you the Readers Digest version, and then you can ask me any questions to fill in, there's er, quite a bit to tell. We started off about a year ago, looking at recycling that's available in which is just basically the paper, cans and glass out at the park car park. We thought, there's a lot more that you can do. There's a lot more that you can do than this. How can we go about doing it? We thought that the site over at the station centre would be good as a shop outlet and as office space for recycling, and that the site behind it would be a good place to keep all the stuff until it can actually be recycled, erm, so we identified the site to start with, then we started looking at what's actually possible as op opposed to desirable. To this end we had a feasibility study written by Ken who is Devon's Community Recycling Network Coordinator. His study took three months to prepare and, considers the markets available, it considers things like recycling credits that the councils can give you. It looks at other initiatives similar to the one that we're planning, and Derek has got a copy of that, if anyone would like details, on any of that. The next thing we did was starting to support and run it, of course. So far, we've got support from Waste Watch which is a Department of the Environment's er recycling group. They've sponsored us a consultancy, They twinned us they've twinned us as it were, with a town called Wye, which is a similar size to Ottery St Mary in every respect. And our consultant has been running varied recycling for the last four years, and they are currently recycling seventy percent of the waste in that town. That's as against a national average of about five percent. So obviously this consultancy gives a lot of good ideas, and a lot of very practical advice, because they were actually doing it. We've been to visit him, he's back to visit us, and he's available to us on the phone for a year, and all of that's covered by this Department of the Environment. In terms of hard cash, we've applied to the Community Council of Great Britain, and their Rural Action Project, and they've promised us two thousand pounds as an actual funding, so as and when funding becomes available from councils or from private sector or from our own efforts, they match that pound for pound as we go along. Er, other money is being raised from local businesses, we've got support from Otter Nurseries and we've got support from as well. Who are local support. As far as council support goes, we've been granted the use of both the station centre itself, so that we can have a retail outlet for furniture, bric-a-brac, books, the kind of thing that might go to landfill, but which people might very well want to use. And that would also give us office space which would give us a headquarters for a recycling education group, which would go out to schools, to councils, to Brownie groups, to to anybody who might be interested in recycling, what they can do, how they can it better. Erm, that would all be based in the station centre, erm, as I say, we've also been granted permission to use the site behind and planning permission is on the way through now, that's looking good. We've got support of social services, who actually own the access onto that site. They're obliged to charge us a certain amount for access, but they're talking about giving us that money back as a grant. So all of, all of that is under way. Er, what do we need now? Well, it's all very well saying you're gonna recycle things, you've gotta have something to keep them in. We looked into all sorts of different buildings, and that would be suitable, and we've decided the best thing is on the shipping containers, they're water proof, they're vandal proof, and they're recycled as well, which helps. We are looking at a cost of about five hundred pound for these, plus two hundred pound shipping charges, and we're going to need four or five of them. At the moment, we've got, Devon County Council's Recycling Working Party who are very likely to be paying our site's rental charges, for at least the first year to get us off the ground. Er, I can't say definitely yet,because the meeting comes up after this meeting, but I've had a lot of positive noises. East Devon District Council has looked at the paperwork and has realized that the Community Council is going to match anything that they give, so I've spoken to their recycling officer and he thinks that the way the budget is, we're very likely to get one of the containers from them, which would be matched by another from the Community Council. So, basically what I'm here to ask you for this evening is your support of the project, and specifically, if the town council could buy us another one of these shipping containers. Then we effectively double their money, because that would give us the fourth and final one that we do need to set up and start operating. In the long term we'd like to go on, and build a workshop, make our own recycle refurbish electrical goods, because, obviously, this is something a bit more in capital intensive, and it's something we're looking at it in the future. Thank you. That's it. Mm. Questions. Out of that Mhm. Would you recycle goods or whatever you like to call it? No. Have you any? Yeah. Erm, last week we consulted Devon County Council, we sell it for peanuts, unfortunately now, because the market as we know, with people being keener on to the recycling plus products flooding in from Germany creating products. Er, from the sound business point of view, we can only recycle glass, because we get what are called recycling credits, which is that the County Council gives us fifteen pounds a ton at the moment. That's going up April of next year. For everything that we collect. So they will take the glass and they will pay us recycling credits for that. Newspaper, difficult one, generally, but we're lucky in that we've got a place down in Exmouth that shred this all up for animal bedding, and they'll take that, and again we'll get recycling credits, so although it's low value in terms of the actual material, it attracts this big recycling credit so so a subsidized market, if you like. Aluminium cans, can only start at seven hundred pounds a ton. Steel cans, you can just about cover the costs of it. You mentioned all the figures that you can Yes, yes. You mentioned Germany. Sorry? Germany has a big problem, hasn't it? Germany does have a big problem. They are, they are the top recyclable nation in the world. That's right. Well, the problem is that they They have so much, they can't get rid of it. That's it. The problem, the problem with Germany is, as you say, they're flooding the market, they've, they've gone at it from one end only. You know, they thought, recycle things, marvellous, they've got people separating their waste, they're collected separately, and then they, oh well, now what, oh we'll ship it to England. Invasion. You, you go somewhere over Philippines, and you've got land sites full of glued up old recyclable German plastics. they do with it, I agree. It's a But do you think you can compete with that? Yes. Because, as I say, we've got recycling credits on our side, we've got the fact that we've got this outlet in Exmouth which will take the paper, and that's why we're looking at producing this workshop area, so that a lot of this stuff that goes to landfill, I'm talking about, fridges, tables, whichever else that can be repaired and reused er,I know this is only on a very small scale, but one of the things that I think is very important with is that we're not purely a recycling centre, we also want to set an education project, to raise people's awareness of what yo yet waste production isn't about recycling, it's about not producing it in the first place, That's right, yes. and the more people are aware of that. It's not a question of how good it is to recycle several tons, it would be better still not to produce it. So I think that's er, an important part of it. We've actually had a recycling paper project going on over the last couple of months, which made paper out of shredded newsprint and then made Christmas cards out of them. They sold those on the profit for Rio. So it's, it's small things like that which although on their own, as we didn't recycle but for all those people who bought cards and the people they send them to are, are now aware, that they need to create a market. Thank you. Anybody else? can you ask, ah, sorry,wh what products do you actually recycle? You mentioned glass and paper. Glass, paper, cans, steel, scrap metal, generally. Timber which can either be good usable furniture, or furniture that can be repaired, which can go straight back out to anybody who wants to buy them. We've also got through Social Services, and Honiton, who are desperate serving source of furniture, and you just see it going on top of the estate cars going down towards all the time. If we can divert that back into Social Services, that'll be instantly reused. Waste oil can be collected, and we can re-sell that to be used as fuel oil. Er, scrap timber can be stacked up at one side, and used as firewood. Erm, textiles have a high re-sale value. Even if we did something like jumble sale clearance, and get people's old clothes, you could sell that for about a hundred pounds a ton. Erm, off the top of my head. We're not going to be touching plastics, because the market isn't in place yet. Just create a problem for ourselves at the moment. As and when the market develops, we might look at that. Erm. Will you restrict what's, how, how are you collecting, people bring it to you, or will you actually Yeah. The idea is to make it a bring facility at the moment, which is why we like the station centre and the yard behind it, because people tend to drive out that way as they go to Exeter and back. Wh wh what are the problems with throwing out plastic dustbins full of rubbish and just dumping it on your doorstep, and finding it unusable? Well, that's obviously one of the problems with a recycling centre. We've done quite an extensive survey around Ottery, looking at the times people use these facilities, and the weekends, especially Saturdays, is the favoured time. What we're planning to do in the very early stages, is to have the site staffed on a Saturday, and have people there, so we can actually turn away rubbish. We will have a skip on site, so that any rubbish that accidentally sneaks through, can be put in there, and that's something we've budgeted for, the fact that we will have to remove rubbish. Because I think you will have a real problem, coming on board now is, finding a building place. Devon waste money on controlling tips in Devon. Mm. They're raising their fees, restricting what you can tip there. That's right. And then, a lot of these skip hires, do an awful lot of domestic Mm. erm, skips, and I think what we ought to do is, if you can travel, deter people from having skips at home, and I, I think if, if you set up there, you'd be But there again, if you look at the number of building sites outside people's houses, and the amount of stuff in there, that just breaks my heart to see it all go into landfill. You've got bricks, which can be reused, you've got timber which can be reused. Right, right, well you say that but it's right highly unlikely. Right. Thanks,. Anyone else got a question? Okay, Carol, thank you for the time you've given to us to see it. Well, thank you for listening. Right, erm, obviously we'll come to our deliberations as we go along. Right oh. Okay, and, and we will be asking you back at regular intervals. Thank you very much. Alright. Thank you. Right. Thanks a lot Thanks for your time. Well, thanks for yours, I hope you I know how precious it is at meetings. Right. Okay. . Well, can we get down to business . Town Clerk to receive apologies. Erm, Councillors , and . , and , right. Item two, under the, go on to grants now. Reports of correspondence. No, I've got er, no er, reports, in fact. Oh yes, I can report, I phone erm erm my work today, about the place save, because I'm obviously very concerned about that. I met up with her two and three times, to see where we're at. And apparently the firm that she ordered the thing from in the first place had been er, re-set up. I don't know whether it's exactly the same company, or whether it's erm, brackets nineteen ninety three or whatever it is. But it has some of the same staff, with a new manager director and so on. She apparently phoned him shortly before I spoke to her today, and she's got an assurance that she'll get her money back. So, this is to be hoped for, and he, he's guaranteed reconciliation by the thirty first of this month. So she was writing to him at the time I telephoned. He's getting the letter and has promised that action will be taken, so I, it's only words at the moment. Right, hopefully, I think we must take this as erm, part B agenda item at the main council meeting. Because we've got to get this sorted out, because if we don't, the, the end of the year will be, any enhancement money, be lost won't it? Yep. So we've really got to get, put some, we'll take that as a part B in, in, in the January meeting. I was slightly alarmed when we got that copy of the Tipton Times, and there was a fire inside it, begging people to come forward for the er And that was no chairman, no secretary, no treasurer in the organization. And perhaps there was only There were erm, what I think, you know, things were not as they seem. However, we're in a situation now, we've got to rectify, so I think that's the only course of action we can take. See what comes by the end of the month. Mm. And then, do something, even if it means calling her in I'm not afraid to call her in Yeah. for part three of the meeting, Mm. erm, and take it like that. Said she's guaranteed to phone me before the next council meeting, so that we know what we're doing, so I'll keep at her. Right. Fine. We're going to erm, item three, the supermarket applications, now under youth grants, you remember that we advertised, this is the money we precepted, which we won't be using for the detached youth work workers' scheme. Plus the rebate that we had from that project. The total we've got, er, available to us, to support mainstream, and different youth activities is six thousand, one hundred and thirty two pounds. And that's precepted to use by March of ninety four. Okay. I must say, I've been pleasantly sur you know ve pleased, by the number applications from youth activities that have come through. The first one on our list tonight, ah, one seven nine, is for the young ladies that we've just seen, with a production of their book, A Dog Called Mock, and I think that we er, talked about this, and asked them to come in, because we wanted to know the substance, and whether this thing was actually taking place, and what was, I, I, I don't know what the rest of you feel, I think they made a fine presentation, and it's obviously something which is going ahead, and I hope that some of you feel, we should reward initiative. Comments. Well, I, I think Mr Chairman, they've done a fair job in there. The work they've put in, erm, and obviously, if you give your support to erm, make them a grant, it's basically a grant for adults. Because a lot of the profits, that would er, be generated by this book is being put back into Yeah, I, I Er, in a way I, I like the idea they're gonna raise six hundred pound wherever they can, then all the money they raise, they can sell the books for is going back into the community. Mm. Sorry, did I miss out on something, that, didn't they say who they were selling it to? Presumably parents, but Yeah, well I suppose any, I mean if they go to London or Manchester or, or er I, I think they're gonna produce something rather like th the books you buy for your kids when they're young, you know. Sort of Nanette Newman books, they're very similar. I've got one of two of those at home, and they're very similar. Oh, I do like that. . Right, well, That's four hundred quid, weren't it Yeah, I'd like to propose for maybe about two hundred. Oh, that's what I'd been thinking, fifty percent of what they want. Fifty percent of what they've got left. That means, they've raised a third, we've given them a third, and they got a third to raise. All in fa all in favour? It's getting used to thinking that somebody's doing something for 'em. Well, I think we can actually get a bit in the newspaper with this one. Right. All agree? Yes. Thank you very much. Number one eight four. Tipton Scout Troop, erm, basically we, we have helped Tipton Scout Troop before, was it last year? No, it was this year. This year. We've given them five hundred pounds. Remember John and I went on a, a visit down to see their hut and to be honest, they were making a very good job of the hut, what they come in for, is er, a second bite, really, erm, they've got to, to floor the roof which we er, thought was quite interesting. I think what they mean is, they're putting a floor, well, I know what it means, they're putting a floor so they can store stuff across the erm, Roof space. yeah, you know, Is the roof flooring. That my floor, yeah. I call that a ceiling, but that's a second That's right, yes and t to, to line the walls, and paint the exterior, they've got virtually, well they got nine hundred and fifteen pounds' worth of work they need to do to the hut. They've actually asked us for five hundred. I thought that see as we've given them five hundred before, perhaps you'd consider giving them, perhaps two hundred and fifty this time. Any comments? Can I raise a question. It's the same old thing I'm, I'm what, I'm called a coordinator, it's all good saying we're gonna put a mezzanine floor in one of those, you've got to line the building out. Is there any specification going with it? Well, all I can say was, I been, seen the building, and there were a lot of the work was being done under supervision of David under a community project, and for the amount of money they're talking about, three hundred pound, they're not going to put a mezzanine, I mean what they were doing, is gonna put something across the trusses so they can store something there, aren't they? I mean, it's a, it's a wooden prefab type hut, it's very hardy done, concrete floors, they've made a good job of it. Erm, and we have got six thousand pounds to spend. Yep. I don't want to give up work, but Yeah can the building support it? I mean, I seen people Support it? Well string timbers up and you build it up, and the whole lot comes down. Yeah, well all I can say, is that I've seen the building and I would I would think th that it's no problem. I mean, I haven't done a detailed survey on anything, but I was pleasantly surprised by what I saw when I went in there, and I must say, I went there expecting it to be no more than a garden hut. Mm. Right. I mean,pi pity that John isn't here because he can, can ver I said take your points, but then I mean, the other two jobs I don't think there's any problem with them. Even though you say there wasn't, could you, could you fund them money after that? Oh, I don't think we are. I mean, tonight, there was, paint the walls was six hundred and fifty pounds, Well, that's, yeah. and we're talking about two hundred and fifty pound towards that. I'd like to go along with it, but I think it's an area that ou ought to be clear when, er, grants coming in for some or even minor building works, there ought to be a specification within, whether the building can cover it or whatever. Yeah, I know it puts more work back on the people asking for the money, but if, if that went ahead, and they it up, and the whole lot came down. Well,in the same way, you see, when we lent six thousand pounds, they paid up back over a ten year period. We're actually in the business of trying support, and I think failure is not to have tried. Now if they do try and it failed. You know, at least we're supporting the activity of the young people. Young people learn a lot from failing, don't they? They, yes. Oh my God, Mr Chairman, I, I take your point, but I also support erm, Paul, actually, because if we do support things like this, and like you say, if it were, do collapse on these kids, erm, they could come back and say, well, you know, council give us the money towards it, you know, they should have, Oh, I don't think that's true. But it could well do, you know. No, no You get bad No, I mean, they constituted, they're insured I know that, I mean, er,we what Paul said, is basically that, we could have problems, if it, if it did go wrong. I mean, if you, if you into, if you were trying to look into building or commercial and you had to send them a planning application for it, you'd have to prove that building could support the weight. What I'm saying is this. If Tipton Scouts have written to us and said that under the grant that we're trying to give tonight, towards . If they said, would you please give five hundred pounds towards our running costs, there's a chance we would have looked at it We'd have looked at it. What they're doing is actually going a lot further, and supply us all the their ac accounts and details, and they've actually sort of called it a grant for partial costs of materials, right, so we're actually Is it not incumbent though, on the councillor or ward councillor to make sure when the money has been granted, that how it's used and spent, so he's going to keep an eye on it, anyway? Because, that's part of the thing, that the, the ward councillor is meant to b keep an eye on the actual project Well, I've just seen a new way forward why don't we get a report on this,I mean he's more operative, I mean,to consider, the building is worthy of what something or other Well, there's no harm in you doing it, is there? your ward, your ward, you're experienced in this sort of thing. Yeah. I would like to think that we've pass for two hundred and fifty, subject to Trevor being satisfied. Wait a minute. How did this hut started, was it, did it start as an agricultural building, or a house, or a just a plan hut? I think it started as an agricultural building, which they got for nothing. And transported there, and they've re-done it, and put it on site with a concrete floor. Quite impressive. There's no reason why you should get somebody I don't call for it, but I think he's right in bringing it along. ask you for it, is as it was reasonably sound, there is no reason why it should just sit and suddenly collapse. No. Then it's the first It's the basic principle. I mean, I'm not after money, but you, you've, you've got to make sure you're giving the money to, to a project like that, the thing is viable. That's right. We are the caretakers of this pub public community's money. Yeah. And it's only right that we should say how it's spent. But surely that isn't the case, I mean that, you know, we can't be responsible for the way in which all these groups actually behave and all the rest I, I, I agree with you We have to draw the line at some point. Yeah. I mean, it's like Rio, you know, somebody could crawl Yeah. underneath it, you know, under those trucks or something, but I mean we, we, we can't be responsible for that. What we're here to do is gone and do showing more initiative. We're trying sports and Is there anything in the constitution anywhere, cos I happily to go along with that if it's written in Whose constitution? Or,wh what that, that we just give out grants, and we're not responsible how the money is spent. I think that's irresponsible. It's worth looking into, I think. It's just that, nowadays in life, you make a mistake and someone bangs you on the head for it. Oh, making it for quite a while Yes. with as it turned out. Yes. Erm, the money is here for us to allocate. Yes, I know. The council passed it for allocation to youth activities. It remains with youth activities. Now we're not going to be able to go out and check where, which way that every pound is spent. No, I, I appreciate that. Right. You've got a squadron that need a training course. What about the lady first with the books, I mean,th th that could, someone could fall out, lose interest, you've given a grant Sure. Well, look at Tipton Play Area. This is what's at the back of my mind The minute we stop doing this, we might as well stop the whole plans procedure. That's how I view it. Yeah. And we're here to try and, alright if, if seven out of the ten that we look up tonight come through, we've done well. No. At the end of the day, you can't be one hundred percent, but I'm, I, I think it's a good idea, that we actually pass something to the people, pending Trevor being happy. I think that's a yeah. He'll look on that. So, do you agree two hundred and fifty pounds? Yeah, I think I'll go along with that. Yeah. Yeah, I think it's a good investment. Sounds good, anyway. Right. Okay. A hundred and eighty five is erm, the Boxing Club. Er, I was hoping the president of the Boxing Club, Councillor would have been here tonight. Erm, they're applying for a grant of five hundred pounds for equipment, equipment being a Senior Stand Ball, cost two hundred and eighty, and a new canvas for the boxing ring, cost two hundred and twenty pound. Er, this is obviously in answer to the questionnaire, yes they have four hundred and fifty pound in the bank, and yes they do organize boxing tournaments for self-help. Must say, I know some of you don't like boxing, erm, I was at the last tournament in Honiton. It was very well organized, and I'm impressed with the way the kids behave at these dos, and I'd like to see you support it. I see you've add three hundred pounds, is that right? Yeah. Th that this, erm, what you bear in mind, that this is out of our usual grants. Did they have one this year? Yes. Yes. They had one thi but this is out of our grants. This is specifically for our youth grants. So, quite rightly, they've already had some support, and at that time, we didn't know how much money, you know, we were working on a different budget. Can I just ask, is Ottery St Mary erm, Boxing Club and,Otter Yes, they're Yes, one and the same? Yeah, They thought it would draw people in from a wider They're trying to draw from a wider, yeah area My question Comments. Yes, I think we should er, give them something, but seeing as they've had three hundred pound, I think or less or perhaps two hundred pound, they've got the five hundred, do they want erm, anything else. They've asked us for five. They've asked for five. If you wanna give them half of that. Two fifty. Well, you'll have to think how much Mr , you know that's grant Yeah, I know work out all the way down. I've added it all up. Well I, well I, I mean I've had to do my homework, before I come on this meeting for you, and I, and if I can start at the back and work forwards we have got enough money. Right. Right. We have got enough money to give 'em five hundred, actually. Right. If we gave them the five hundred, we won't, we are within, having said that, we're not going to give everybody everything, I don't think. So I mean, I think that would be quite fair if we erm, given 'em two hundred and fifty pounds, at this stage, or Further in the summer. Two hundred Two hundred and eighty. Well, Well, why don't we do that then? Support one of the two items they've asked for. They've asked for a stand-ball. Cost two hundred and eighty. Yes. You happy to pay that on receipt of invoices for that money? Yes. Yes. Right. two fifty No, hang on. No, you're Personally, I mean, I'm against er, encouraging Boxing but er, I don't I, I obviously gone have a way of doing this, but erm, it's difficult, if you, if you're at the bottom of the No. of the agenda, I mean It's gonna be alright dropping off the end. No. I promise you, I promise you that isn't grant available. I don't think you Oh, yeah. Right, erm, Communities Theatre, erm, of er th they want a grant to support their current production. Now, I've put this in a as youth, because I do think there are quite a, a large number of young people in this, and erm, as, as broadly across the spectrum er, as, as we can, as we can give it, erm they're expecting to pay three hundred and ninety five pound of hire charges for the institute and on top of this it's necessary to hire extra lighting, as the existing sy system is unsuitable for the theatrical use. And they have a bill, an bill of two hundred and fifty four pounds for the lighting, erm they think it's an important community opportunity to have good entertainment on their doorstep, and they've only been able to balance their proposed production this year, by putting up the price by fifty pence. So they're actually charging people a little bit more to get in to the pantomime this year. I would have thought that if we were to put forward the two hundred and fifty pound to cover the, their extra lighting bill, that would have been money well spent. How much are they asking for? They've actually said, that their cost of three hundred and ninety five pound, out of which two hundred and fifty is for lighting. Personally, I'd love to see us support it to the hilt, because I believe that, you know, the community theatre, above all else in Ottery, really does give it a good name. Excellent productions. Very well, professionally, done. And, you know, for a small place like Ottery, you know, I mean, Honiton, as far as I know hasn't got anything like this. No,years ago. Brings in all sorts of Sorry? companies of Ottery as a community place, about five or six years ago, weren't it? That's right, that's right. That's when it all started. I chaired the first meeting in the institute. You know, it's no amateur sort erm, well it is amateur, but I mean, it's very As long as it's going to run, I mean, I don't know, I think, I think they up against Everybody says give a bit more than that. I think, I think, I'd love to see us give this full amount. I mean, I know, for instance, the institute charges for them are crippling them, you know, and to put on a production is incredibly expensive. And to think, you know, I mean, one of the people came along tonight, actually very much involved in it. The people that do this, spend a hell of a lot of time and energy doing it. Repairing costumes I could, I could go along with Phil on that. Erm, it is a real community pro I don't watch it, I'm not interested in it, but it is a real community project and obviously reaches right to the family. The family of this community. And I think it might be as well to support it. Right. Trevor. I, I been thinking Right. we take advantage of it, not just Well, in actual fact we've cut down on the boxing bit from what I thought, perhaps. We could give 'em a bit more, we could give, we could give 'em the four hundred pounds. What, that there? Community, together, if you wanted to. Well, I think we ought to Depends on on the success of their audience they got for the pantomime, not It doesn't look like They've got to do it, but I mean I think we should, you should support these, Phil. I, I would like to think they'd been supported the same as the boxing club, but after all the boxing club is for youths, and I think they've got to look after the youths erm, try and find something for them to do, as much as erm,community They work hard. I mean, to my, to my mind, They don't want to know I mean, a lot of these grants go sporting wise, very few are arts type grants, and it's something that a lot of people participate, and a lot of people get pleasure out of. They put their, they put their tickets up by fifty pence, which is itself out. You see, they do charge for people to go and see it. Yeah. They do. They have to do I, I propose from the chair, we give 'em four hundred pound. I declare my interest, Mr Chairman,I think I'm the Vice President, so They given the same grant Well, why don't you get that in writing, yeah. I was going to. Right. All agree, all agree? I don't actually think that a Vice Presidency is somehow, should rule you out of organization Okay. Move on to number one eight seven. The Sports Centre. Now, I think this is a very interesting reply to our advert. They're, er,th they've got three suggestions been made, which to consider or discuss further. One is a lump sum to be given to the Sports Centre to be used to offset junior activities of their choice. The centre would then, were promoting this activity as they weren't supported by Ottery town council. This scheme would benefit anyone participating in the chosen activity not just Ottery youth. Two, a lump sum to be held by the town council, to be used as a form of grant, or financial support for low income families, students, unemployed, etcetera, on production of the relevant proof, erm, depending on the individual's needs, this could be either a full financial or part financial support for an activity of the person's choice, and this scheme could be used purely for Ottery based people. Three, a lump sum could be given to the centre for training employment of certain Ottery teenagers. We have, over the years, employed several students, but over the last few, have been unable to do so, for financial constraints. A youth training fund would enable us to continue this scheme, not only with a view to employment, but enabling us to provide training and development of personal skills, which would benefit them in future employment or future education. There. Three interesting concepts. Purely a matter of personal choice. I s I, I like the first one. A lump sum can be given, and then erm, they administer it. But I don't know that we can get in the day to day running of the Sports Centre. How much have they asked for? Well, they haven't asked. But I, in my workings out, I'd thought five hundred pounds was the you know you can give 'em a lot less than that, and not, not gonna fund much of an activity, I don't think the silence was deafening. Well, I'm afraid I'm against the erm, Sports Centre to be honest. For the amount of money we pay, so much now, towards this Yeah. and such like, I think we support it very well. But, then again, it does do a good thing, and I wouldn't be against giving them some support, Yeah. But I think we do as a council, support that Sports Centre very well at the moment, which we didn't expect to be doing. Well, all I, all I can say, and I take your point, is there is an awful large number of Ottery people using that place, and I think that that, I think East Devon do a very very good job with the Sports Centre, and we all know the giving a Yes. four thousand pound a year grant. But this isn't one-off, is it? This is something different again Town Clerk. I think just to answer that the, the pitch, because obviously I looked into this, and tried to get a reduction, Yes. the amount we have to pay for the pitch is no fault of the Centre, it's the fact that East Devon and Devon County permitted competitive pitches to be opened up quite close, Quite close, yes. long after they said they wouldn't, because I understand there was a firm assurance, there wouldn't be other pitches around. And, all of a sudden, they opened them in competition. We lost the team, we lost all sorts of things. Yes, but why they got the to offer it, because we were promised that this,this event would be decreased. Would be decreased That given time, they would be a self-supporting but those of us, there was Axminster, there was Exeter, there was Exmouth er, they've all got them Honiton, Exmouth,. But, if we hadn't of paid the four thousand, there wouldn't be a pitch there now. Well, that, that's what they said. I mean, wouldn't know, I wouldn't know, I wasn't here at the time. Difference, you know, Yes. is, is whether you support Richard 's initiative, in coming forward to ask us to try and support a different scheme. Perhaps a scheme, where they say, sponsored by Ottery Town Council. I'd sooner see that kinda thing, than er, sponsoring a whole, sort of, like a hall, or something like that. Yeah. Yes, I agree with that. I, I think you have to be sure To offset junior activities of their choice, Yeah. I, I, would it be, would it be erm, wrong of me to ask you say, grant up to five hundred pounds, and I go in and talk to him, so we come back with a council, with a scheme. We keep the money, rather than just say, there's five hundred pound. Let's find out what scheme first. Mr Chairman, I like, I like the sound of that. Alright. We've got to do that, really. Yeah. Yeah, we can't just throw five hundred pounds, I'd like to explore these these additional schemes, and not er subsidize one Well. Yeah. Well I, I look on this all with a I don't think, I don't think we regret East Devon a step with every everything you come to. I would have thought the community I'm going down to the Yeah. Well, I'm looking at this, we didn't promise not about this, any more than the community there once Well, by very few people. More people, could get benefit out of the five hundred, then there what there is for four. I can assure you, the way it's going, at the end of the annual review just going. at the end of, no we won't. At the end of the night, we're still gonna have some money, which we've gotta get spent, or w would hope to get spent by next March, so we're gonna have you to come in again. We're gonna have to look for more, you know, it's December now, Mm. and you've got the money to use by March, Yeah. and they're all pretty valid, and I can assure you that, if we allow up to a maximum of five hundred and we check out what they're doing with it, and we put all the right s it's not going to be money wasted. Well, let's put it the other way. Why, why should we give five hundred to the Sports Centre, and only four hundred to the community centre? Cos that's what they asked for Or three hundred to the something else, three hundred to erm, Well, cos hopefully, hopefully, Yeah we're tying all these grants Yeah. to what people have asked for, rather than just saying, I mean, it would be very easy, if you said, right, all the people who've applied, we'll give them five hundred pound each. But that's not really the way to do, is it? why not give them what they asked for, since you Because, hopefully, the product of this discussion is that we'll look at each grant, judge it on its merits, and then come up with what we think's the right figure. So I'll be proposing, we have five hundred pound based on satisfactory outcome of the discussions. All those in favour? Yeah, I think rather a good idea. Right. Fine. Busy Otters Play Group. Erm, they're writing on behalf of the, to apply for a grant as detailed in the advert, erm, and basically, erm, it's, it, they're, they're, they're really asking for us for help to keep the thing running. Mm. They're not asking for anything in specific. They're actually saying, can you please, seeing as you've got this money for youth, help us keep the job going. I think they're they doing a good job, actually. Yeah. And we've, you know I put down two hundred and fifty pounds. I think that's er, that's a fair assessment for them. I think they will be well pleased with that, to be honest. Councillor Sorry, er, sorry, Mr Chairman, I'm just thinking about it. I don't erm, I don't erm, You hear what he said? I don't see anything wrong with the proposal, I erm, I'm not against any of this. I mean I think we should er, They have, they have sent up very detail detailed accounts, They are, they're master of speci specific amount. Or have they? I second two hundred and fifty Right. All those in favour? Yes. Thank you. Otter Vale Hockey Club. Well, they've sent us in an application er, very detailed, very go good letter, actually. And what they're actually asking for is some help towards item of kit, erm, a goalkeeping helmet, sixty pounds. Pads, hundred and twenty. Chest pads, fifty two. Tickers is that Tickers Tickers. Sixty five pounds, gloves, forty and a set of shirts, two hundred and fifty eight. They say a set of gear is costing them five hundred and ninety five pounds. They're running five teams, from five to nine year olds upwards. They charge they charge twenty five pounds erm, subscription and two pounds for each game that people play. Erm, they're actually asking us to supply one set of gear. So they they're actually asking us for five hundred and ninety five pounds. Sorry, Mr Chairman, I'm only thinking aloud. I put down five hundred on my lists for you to decide. It is surprising how much this has widened out in the last twelve months, to be honest. Erm, the amount that young children and adults that are playing hockey now, surprised me. I, in actual fact, went there and erm, just thinking about it The amount of people that's involved with it now, is astronomical to be honest, I didn't realize the interest was in hockey as it is. No. Erm, I would say, say yes, we support 'em. To how much, Mr Chairman, I will leave that We, we, we can afford, within the scope of what we've got, we can afford to pay five hundred pounds. You see, then, then my argument is the same, well, why give the Hockey Club five hundred pounds, and the Play Group only two fifty? You see, that You can't The Play Group with er, people with small children, and erm Perhaps only thirty people in the hockey field. Right. Proposal. six hundred Yeah. I propose Anybody second that? All those in favour? It must be, mustn't it? Aye. Five hundred, out of the five ninety. Again on receipt of the bills for that. We've got erm, the next application in from the station centre for a youth and community activities. Their problem is that they've lost five hundred pounds. Which was the anticipated work for the detached youth worker, erm, project. They er, are making the building available to, to Rio. They are supporting several other different users, but clearly if the five hundred pound, which they were anticipating, doesn't come to them they are in grave financial difficulties again. Whether you wish to support the, that, that building Can I just make a point Yes. for the future. Erm, I've been in discussion, because I've been trying to rescue their electricity bill situation, which is again, something which has blown up on them. Their lease runs out at the end of, I think it's April, and we are going to receive an approach from Devon County Council, that we become involved in any extension of that as a council, and that perhaps we offer them rather more in the way of guidance, which I think, is their main need. And rather than make it into a viable erm, organization. Erm, we're not ready with the proposal yet, because obviously we haven't had anything to come to us. But if this station youth centre is to continue, and I think personally that it is very important that it does, and that it develops. But it's controlled in a way rather differently to that which it's controlled now. Erm, obviously, as soon as we get something, it'll be put before the council, but this is just an interim thing, Yes, yes, yes. so that it stays afloat. I think part of the problem with the station youth centre, surely is that, we don't seem to know from one year to another, what the future's gonna be, other, you know, there doesn't seem to be any forward planning whatsoever. Yeah. And, personally, I mean, I know, having been there in the evening in that hall, it's, it's not very easy to hire it out, but it's freezing still. You know, I mean, there's draughts coming in, in here and there and everywhere. The whole place has got an air of being run down, and county council, I think to be honest, would quite like it to fall down, or just to be able to develop the whole site. Well. We've got planning applications, haven't we? Yeah. So I think th th that the one thing which is good I think, is a possibility of re-opening it up, and possibly using it to a fuller extent, which might actually give it er, er, new lease of life. Well, also erm, the Education Authority, if it were used properly, would be prepared to make more money available to it. Erm, at the moment, they're looking to give, possibly a prefer a preferential grant to the one that's there now for any cost of a hiring from Devon County Council. They said what they mean by using it properly, I mean Well, this has got to come in a letter, I mean, this is what we want. Erm, they haven't said, because at the moment, it's, it's at the end of one lease, or nearly the end of one lease, with some small horror stories in there of sorts, and I think it's got to come on to We did, er, we re we were hopeful, that in the next few months, there would be a full scale debate on the future on this building, and that we as the council, will take some initiative in, in actually the, the renewal of the lease. If we don't grant a, what's going there now, it could well be that by default, the building will revert to the county council, and it would be lost to the people of Ottery. Clearly, I don't want to see us having just an open ended thing, that every time they get into trouble, we bail them out, but I do think that we need to give breathing space now, until we can come with a, a, a decent set of proposals for the future of the building. Remembering of course, that they have painted the outside, the county council, but clearly, erm, there is need for a fair refurbishment package inside. In my discussions with the police, it was one of the buildings we offered them, and I went with erm, the new inspector to look at that, and I still said they were somewhat put off by the cold austere sort of feeling of the place. But there are possible, Potential's there. I know that, I know that erm, the existing committee are drawing up proposals for their refurbishment of the place, erm, obviously to look for, for help towards it. I think we as a town, don't want to lose, we got precious few buildings, for community use, and I think we need to look at this to the different light now. I think we need to say, okay, in the future, what are we, the town, gonna do, to make this building right for what we want for the town. Mm. Rather than think, oh well, there's a couple of people, group running it, that's near enough and it's good enough. And I think we've reached the stage, where the county council said, you come to us with a new initiative, and we're far more likely to be, bend over to help you, than, than under the present. So on, on that basis, I would hope you feel that we could support 'em, to make up the shortfall in rent, which will in actual fact be paid on by them in rent, to keep the place occupiable. Who, who runs the new centre now? It's, it's the same committee run by er, well it's the station and, and station centre for community and It's used only Oh, yes indeed, there's, there's quite a few users. St John's Ambulance are based there, erm, they're all sorts of different clu are you still involved in it? No. No, use the theatre. Yeah. It's, it's got quite a lot erm, users who would be without a home, albeit boxing club. I think we'll have to support that. Yes, yes, yes. As long as it's being used, then I think we've gotta keep it. Right. You're happy with the five hundred? Yeah. I see wi with the additional five hundred last year, I should think you couldn't do less than that, could you? Right. Fine. Now then, that's one, one is the squad room, Air Training Corps. Now the reason we've got this, is there are quite a few erm, Ottery boys who are members of this corps, and get taken down there by bus every Friday evening, and the Town Clerk erm, went to speak to them. Yeah, I attended, I used to run an A T C squad, well I used to run the two different ones in London, and A T C squadrons, and I must say I've been invited to the last two open nights. There was one about a fortnight ago, and would have given my ears for the sort of civilian committee, and the methods that they're using here, compared with the ones I saw in London. It's well run, there's a good attendance, they've got some very very good results on examinations this year, and of course this is all extra to their school work. They're smart, the place is well maintained, and I think anything we can do to support the general thing there, and certainly the Ottery youth there is, is, is money well spent. Out of their membership of twenty four, do you know how many are Ottery? I think it's about six. Six. They've got two thousand seven hundred pounds in the deposit account, erm, they'll be applying to Sidmouth town council for a grant, er the reason for the grant, they've asked for two hundred and fifty, is to sponsor as many cadets as possible to take part in activities at Haven Banks. Which I guess is a It's er educa er training centre. Er, Trevor. Mr Chairman, this, in actual fact, I can put a little bit of light on to this, I mean, having had two of my children, erm, attended this, Air Training Corps. Basically th there are two members that come over to Ottery, and pick the kids up in their own transport, when the A T C transport is unavailable, which they . They take them there, they train them and they bring them back again in the evenings as well. I might, my children in actual fact have been flown around Scotland in the Nimrods and such like. They do do a lot, they travel all over the country, er, and I think it's a worthwhile thing, I mean, you see the kids dressed up smart. I, I in actual fact went to the er, Remembrance Day Parade and to see those kids do a silent drill, it's unbelievable. In fact, it's very tearful. I, I Right could we myself and I think it's a very good er They asked for two hundred and fifty pounds. Yes, yes. the thing I'm thinking about, I mean terribly keen on, you know, training wh whatever the basis for it is, I mean, we don't want to start a discussion on that. But must but I don't know how much further I want to go along that sort of line. Erm, but I think, I mean, don't we have to be a bit careful about supporting other organizations in other towns? We have given them a grant, er a couple of years ago. I'm just thinking in terms of if if I can just finish. Well, we do, we do support sorry. If those six children, you know, turn out to be, you know, this would be, this year or next year or whatever, erm, what's going to happen next year? You know, are we going to get requests again when they aren't Ottery children? I think we would have verify that there are Ottery kids taking part in that particular year. That is, that is the least I've known it Yeah. six. I mean there's usually two car loads used to go across when my kids were there. Yeah. I mean we do support, don't we, things like the talking newspaper across the area, because there's, and we do support like erm, Mrs 's holiday for youngsters, although they are not all Ottery kids, but I mean the fact of the matter is, I think we would need each time we look at any of this, that there are Ottery youngsters involved. Well, equally you couldn't have an A T C Squadron in every small town or village in the country, and therefore they've got to be, I mean, just as much as Otter Valley Boxing Club has extended its range to get more people, so the A T C have to be in some particular place. Mm. Because there's quite a lot of equipment supplied from M O D to, to support them. Right. Erm. They've asked us for two hundred and fifty pounds proposal. Right, right, I'll Mr Chairman, I think that's alright. Seconded. Right, all in favour? Any Right, two hundred and fifty pound it is. One nine two, the Ottery St Mary Football Club's youth section. Erm, I've got a three four four page letter from the Ottery youth section, erm, and their we run at the moment three teams of boys between the age of ten and sixteen. Er, we have approximately sixty boys signed on for the three teams, all of whom come from the Ottery area. We have considerable success with all the teams in the past few years, and even when not winning, the boys enjoy their football. Our expenses in running these teams include league and club entry fees, referees fees, refreshments, nets for goals, footballs and three sets of kit and changes of kit, in case of a colour clash. We pay for each boy to have a trophy at the end of the season to recognize that he had represented Ottery throughout the season. Erm, the kit that these boys are wearing is a number of years old, and therefore we are going to need think about replacing it at the end of this season. We would like to be able standardize the kit so all three teams wear the same colours. To replace this kid would cost a thousand pounds. The fund raising we did covers our cost and we rely heavily on the goodwill of parents and friends to provide transport every Sunday. Erm, we are, we are at present at the moment spending money upgrading facilities for the youths. We've already used, improved the supporters' hut to provide shelter for the many people who watch the matches, from which to serve teas. There's still a great deal to do to upgrade the changing facilities for the boys, all the work is carried out by parents and friends, but the materials cost money. We're a forward as many ideas for improving new football. At present, we have also got twenty five boys aged between eight and eleven who attend training for the under twelve team. Only thirteen players can pick to play each week, with a four in un un under eleven team. And so it goes on. And finishes off by saying, erm, our Youth Committee Chairman, Roland have a forward looking attitude to developing and improving youth for many years to come, for as many boys as possible, and we would like to apply for a grant for a thousand pound to cover the cost of providing these new kits for three teams. I hope you will look favourably on this request Comments. Are they asking for a thousand, are they? Yeah. I mean, seeing the amount of kids that do go out there, and the state of the changing rooms that they are using at the moment, I, I think it's really degrading. three one hundred and thirty Yeah. Three one three O. I don't know what you think, Mr Chairman, but I just still five hundred the same as the Youth Centre, the erm Right, proposal, Yeah, I second that. I propose. I propose. Right, all in favour of five hundred? Hockey Club Right. I think that's, thank you Councillor , that's excellent. Three six, three O, now. Three six, three O. We'll have the running total in a minute. Right. Er, Ottery St Mary Scout roof repairs, amount request a thousand pounds. Membership of the organization, one hundred and four boys. Membership fifteen pounds per annum. Balance sheet, quote for three thousand pounds to strip the existing roof covering, and basically well, they're putting on a new roof. Is, is this building here not so long ago? Yes, that's the ones where you put a little under six thousand. Isn't that, meant we, we say that I know time goes on but in years they took to pay the loan. So it's a ten year old building and they're Is it? looking to re-felt the roof. And was it a flat, flat roof? Er No. no, it, er I can't remember what it was. No. Is it a gabled roof, is it? I forget what when they ordered, but I cannot remember now. Probably flat, one of them. Hot, hot, hot bonding and Oh, it's gotta be a flat roof then. Yeah. In fact, I mean, yeah, ten year, Yeah. that's all you'll get out of 'em. They gotta soak Yeah. soak the roofing. Yeah ten years, about right. What they're applying for. The bill,th the, it's three thousand pound, and they're asking us for a thousand. Looks a bona fide, I mean, obviously, we want to make sure the work's done. What do you think? I can't think what building it is then, if it's got a flat roof. Yeah, they're all,there's another one along the end. I have for a number of years Tipton Scouts, Tipton Scouts two fifty. Yeah, but Tipton Scouts, you've already had one this year. Yeah, that's right And this is, I mean, what they're asking, actually to be fair to them they've put in for a thousand pound against three. They've asked for a third. They've asked for a third of what Erm, I, I, I go along as same as the other, five hundred that's my way of thinking, but I don't know what everybody else thinks. I, I think we should We didn't, we didn't on the first request. Instead of giving it a grant,they paid back their money. Yeah, they done very well, really. Would you, would you agree to seven fifty, Councillor would you? I have nothing against the Scouts, I'm all in favour of them actually. I just sort of Mm. We can afford the thousand pound, if you think it's right. They've got a hundred and four boys, Cubs and Scouts. Well they, seeing the Ottery , whatever you call it, they did put in a lot of work down there, there seem to be a lot of Scouts about. I, I like to hear what the rest of erm, the Committee got to say on it, actually. I mean, it's, I seem to be talking quite a bit here tonight. I'm glad you came. this year is it being these people must be given to understand, Oh yes, yes, it's up to us it's up to us, we either the club out or we don't. Yeah. If we've got enough money, I mean Thank you . But let's remember this. What we were criticized and several senior councillors quite rightly said, the five thousand pound we were spending was only going to a very few. But now it's What we've done tonight, is spread that amount of money over a tremendous number of people tonight Yes, yes, yes, yes. and you would have to say, that the benefit's gonna be far more, far reaching than it was before. I think yes So what we're talking about is Scouts or Guides all use it or I think they do, don't they? I think they did. Yeah, I think they do. Yeah. She, she did mention the Guides when she came into the talk with me. I mean, I think, I think that considering the work they, we ought to be looking at giving them the grant. Right, a proposal from the chair. A thousand pounds. All in favour? Any against? Fine, and the running total there How many hands have you had in favour? How many hands in favour? Er, all of 'em. I make it fifteen left. running out Four six, four six three O. I make it fifteen minutes to go. I haven't done anything wrong. It's just that it's running out rather quickly, got there now. We have, have we? This is, that's that one, That's, that's now we move on that's the youth one, now we move on so we now, we've got one thousand I make it,on fifteen oh two left. Balance. One thousand, five hundred and two pound left to spend. So that, what did you make the running total ? Four six three O. That's it, So, four six three O. And I added it all up to four six five O. So somebody had gone Oh, I may be wrong No, no, I meant, that's what I did before. Well, no, don't pack your papers away I, I did promise that I'd be away at eight o'clock. Right. Thank you Councillor You're late. Nice to see you Happy Christmas to you Thank you very much, and the same to all of you, and I hope you chaps will carry on and use it up properly. What? we were worried about that, weren't you? Oh that's alright Right, move on to part two. Move on to part two,one nine four, war memorial. Can I suggest then, can, can we have er, preview of what each of these groups actually want, so we can see Right. Fine. I mean, what's the likelihood of I agree with that. Okay. Yeah, good idea. What we've got left in the kitty is one thousand, no No. Two one O one. Two, one. It's this, it's this figure on here, of, this is what you've given out as the total of five thousand. This now goes back to the ordinary grants money. Right, let's, let's, I'll run through this quickly, what I put down. The first one, I mean, er, this is not casting the stone, but this is the way I see 'em all. The first one, I think shouldn't come Not really. the first one I don't think should come under this grant, I think it should go to enhancement. Because it's all about enhancing the area of the war memorial, and I think that should go for next year's enhancement. The second one,wo if we look to support the carnival and their extortionate high insurance costs. I've put down the target figure of two hundred and fifty. The Sid Valley Talking Newspaper, we gave a hundred and fifty pound before and we have done each year. Right. The Ottery Primary School is about vandalizing er, vandalized seat, and I've put a hundred and fifty for that. And R Rio is to supply one container plus costs of getting it there, seven hundred pound. In total that comes to twelve hundred and fifty, out of a balance of Two thousand one hundred and one. So there's the b so there's the basis of the discussion. Right. Alright? Thank you. Yeah. Okay. Now the first one, as I say, it's from a Mr it's from a Mr councillor of Porthneal it's erm, I understand Ottery Council has some money available an immediately fund that can be used to enhance the environment. Could we suggest paving the area around West Hall War Memorial. I think that falls directly into town enhancement for next year. Town enhancement Yeah. All agree? Yeah. Right. use all of it too. Fine. Erm, the next one is purely from the Carnival er, towards their erm, er, expenses and they say that insurance has risen from three hundred to twelve hundred pounds. Basically, it's another one, isn't it, where whatever money we put towards it, and the end of the day what they get left with comes back into the community. You know, they pay, they pay Oh, yeah. various charities. The insurance, for what, er, public liability Yeah. Yeah. Ridiculous, int, and they're having problems of getting That's the only thing that's gonna stop the carnival. Yeah. You only gonna have one upset, and that's to be the end of it. But why have they actually said, to ask specifically, I mean, you can understand it in terms of the cars, or something, cos a lot of people are claiming for everything right left and centre. But I mean, there is not a lot of tar barrel rolling around the country. Well, what it's all about is that er, the insurers have seen things on the telly etcetera and horrified with the result, Yes, yes. and basically they're running out of companies who are prepared to insure. Yes, yes. Even though they haven't made claims. Trevor. Mr Chairman erm, I believe we have had a breakdown there, haven't we. Any A break Any way of giving a breakdown, of what money they give out, do they? Donations wise, yeah, yeah. Erm. Would you, could you read some of those? Yeah. Donations. Well, in nineteen eighty four, they gave out four seven five in prize money, and three hundred pound in donations. By nineteen eighty eight, it was up to five hundred and five in prize money and eleven forty seven in donations. And in nineteen ninety three they gave a thousand and forty prize money and paid out two thousand one hundred and sixty pound on donations. They haven't give you the breakdown of donations and who they give it to? They have. Could you give us that? Last year's. Right in nineteen ninety three, twenty five pound to the Police Widows and Orphans, hundred and fifty to the Girl Guides, two hundred and fifty Busy Otters, two hundred pound to Ottery Football, a thousand pound to Ottery Dyslexia Association, two hundred pounds to the W R V S for Talking Books for the Partially Sighted, fifty pounds for the Primary School, and fifty pounds for the St John's Ambulance. They also supply computers as I understood? No. No. But there you are. All things within the town. And they're giving quite a lot back, and I, I know you only give it as a, as a guide, Mr Chairman, but two hundred and fifty pound, I would think that would have to be doubled. The amount of money that they give back to this community, I would like to see it supported Right. That's what? used to be a cripple on Hollywood. Oh dear. I thought they used to run a carol service. Yeah, it's gone. Car Carol weren't there. Oh, sorry it's seven o'clock. Okay. Let somebody on the I'll second, I'll second that. well, that somebody on the committee propose that. I'll propose it. it seems a bit strange though, cos I mean, indirectly we seem to be giving back to the community. The community I think what they're saying is, that unless the money to start with, there's no defin definition that they can carry on. When they've raised the money at the carnival. So they, they need the money as capital up front. Up front. I do think it's probably A good idea that the council back the carnival. Supports it, yes, supports it. Oh, yeah, I mean, I've, I've nothing whatsoever against it. Sure. I think it's brilliant. Yeah. So we'll do that. I'm a seconder for that? What was the proposal? Janice proposed five hundred pounds. Yeah. Right. All in favour? Yeah. Okay, erm, the Sidvale Talking Newspaper, we've supported this before. Erm, It's them again. Yeah,we with this been ongoing, we've given a hundred and fifty pounds to it, erm, well I say I don't see it on the top one. I think it's pretty well supported. bottom one Pretty well supported. top one on the bottom one. There you are. All in favour? two hundred and fifty. Right. Th right the next one's a sad little one. It's about vandalism of a school, of a seat outside the primary school. Erm, you may have heard that vandals destroyed our community seat on the Long Dobbs Lane last week. The seat was given to the school for a Mr headmaster and as a gesture of goodwill to all who pass the school. You'll be all to aware of the school's financial circumstances and understand we are unable to afford replacement or repair. My staff and governors wonder if the town council would be willing to help and restore in the much loved seat. Hundred and fifty pounds. Fair enough. Right. Will that cover the cost of the seat? No. Does, don't it? Not quite. Though about, the one that's going in the cemetery, they're just on two hundred. they're very good seats. Oh, well, if you wanna make it two. I'm taking your word for it. I thought hundred and fifty covered it. The time they set fire to the Right. Well, I would like to see us cover the cost of the seat. Proposal. Yeah, that's the least we can do. Two hundred pound. Right. You'll given them a new target to go for a? Right. Give them a new target. Well. Mustn't give in to vandals, must we? Well, there comes a time, right. One nine eight. It's, you've heard the er presentation by Carol for Rio. They've asked us to provide them with the finance one container, that's five hundred pound, plus two hundred pound transport, which will be matched by the community council if we do it. So in actual fact, we're, we're grant aiding them to get two of their four. I think this is a very actually, Mr Chairman. I think. The only thing, the only thing that worries me is that the thing gets priority. Well, yes, I got the advert. The they put the advert in and she underlined them. I've got those sort of prices some time ago when we were Well. looking for one for the Yeah. the bowling club. We are, we are paying nine hundred pound at the moment. She's, she's got, she's got well, they've asked us for seven. If that does the job and on receipt of the bills, I think we should support it. Yes I think they've got off the ground and they've shown a lot of initiative. I think she, yes, she presented it well. Okay. All agree? I think that means we've spent a bit more than we planned. That I've put down, erm, anybody added it up as we've gone along? Yes, fifteen fifty. Fifteen fifty. Fifteen fifty, which leave us a balance of six hundred pounds, does it? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I think that's a good position to be in now, er, one more grants meeting before the end of the financial year. Well I think we're on the right, on the right side of it. Move on the buildings. The schedule action to be taken relative to necessary works. Now, you've all been down and looked at the state of the playground below. I think we put the erm, report and the guarantee which we've had from Rentakil in solicitor's hands, and he is in the process of contacting Rentakil. Yep. Rentakil have said that they don't consider that the guarantee covers us. But I would suggest to you that we need to press Rentakil and say, you know you the conditions of the guarantee we feel we'd comply with, and wait until we get anything back from the solicitors, before we do anything else. I'm pleased you've all seen the state of it. But I don't think there's any action. I think it may mean that we'll have to call a meeting quite quickly after this one, to discuss, but I really don't think we've got the basis of anything till that comes back. I don't know what the rest of you feel. Can I just make the point that we are due to pay the next erm, annual subscription for this guarantee. Erm, it was due to today, actually. On the solicitor's advice we held it. Erm, in the letter that you s sending by fax tomorrow, you tend to indicate that it is held while the matter's sorted. If they say we've got to pay it, well then I'll have to come back at the council meeting. If not, well it will held pending what they do next, because there's no point, I mean, Trevor's, I think frankly, rightly said, that the guarantee is not a very solid document. If this is the case, then I co wouldn't be able to propose to the council that we continue to give Rentakil two hundred and seventy quid a year For nothing. for nothing. So therefore if you refuse to pay it, they not worth paying. No. You've got to be very careful on that. No. The solicitor is wording it that we're not refusing to pay it, but we're just holding it abeyance. Holding it in abeyance. As long as it doesn't invalidate the guarantee. Well, that's what you've got to be careful of. Gentlemen, I, I, I do believe, fellow councillors, what we've done now is asked the solicitor to, to take the matter in hand, and so I do think until we've got advice from him, it would be for us to actually recommend any other So I think we may have to take this as part of the council meeting when we get a report back, cos obviously, there's a degree of urgency in whatever we do about this, but I can suggest that we can do no more than report back to the next council meeting that we've discussed this, and that it is in solicitor's hands. Can I ask, Mr Chairman, in your opinion, had we carry out the erm, works or anything to do suppose to do. I mean My only candid opinion is that the thing is so loosely couched and phrased that we could claim we have and they could we haven't. Mm. I'm not clear, on reading the fu I haven't read the full report. I will say that Roy dealt with it, when it happened and I know at the time he, he was very very thorough over it. Mm. I mean, I know we spent a lot of time with the former clerk, Mm. And with Rentakil, and if you remember at that time, as he rightly said last night the idea of going with Rentakil, was that we thought they were a reputable firm, Mm. And thought we were doing the best possible thing we could do. Dennis was also an adviser on it. Yeah, well there you are. I think it I think you can stand to correct me, but the problem being with these things, that they're so It's the typical get-out clause, this, isn't it? How it looks to me, is that most of it was angled towards the bit that they were involved in last time, which was much more to do, I think, with the police officer, I wasn't here, but you know, surround it yeah, yeah. and it all sort of refers to that part. Mm. Did, did they do structural work last Sunday? Or was it, was it all dry-rot treatment? Yeah, Typically. yeah. Well, I think what we gotta do. I must s what's happened it this. What's happened is this. At the moment the solicitor has the report, which it took Derek quite a while to find, cos it wasn't filed where it should have been. But we've now found that and it's gone to the solicitor's. In the me we hadn't actually had a chance go through it properly ourselves. And that's something we must do before the next meeting so that I can answer the questions, cos we don't really know at this moment. One, which was actually carried out. We just put it all in Rentakil's hands really, Mm. Thought we were doing right. Now we've got to go into the fine print. Mr Chairman, may I ask What what happened, what happened to the property next door, they were going to put the claim against the council Yeah, well th that all petered out in the end, didn't it? Well, I don't know. We have, we have a problem, of course, erm, in finding the exact root of the problem, we could possibly you see, so So, there's nobody can really No, no define it Well that, that, that did reach a conclusion with the solicitors, didn't it? If it's any comfort, it's just been sold next door. So whoever's bought it bought all the problems, yeah. Well, apparently what's happened there, I do know, because erm, one or two of the people who looked at it got involved, and whereas the property started out at some figure in the high hun hundred and fifty, hundred and eighty thousand, something like that. It was actually sold for something in the region of fif fifty thousand. Because some people came in and had offered sixty, that's what I was told, the last lot that came in had offered sixty. Fifty, and then withdrew, but it's around that fifty, sixty mark. Oh. Can I ask, Mr Chairman, if it's possible for us to have a copy of the reports ? Is it, is it possible? You can borrow the copy, can't you? Yeah. I'll give it back to you Would you, would you look at that, and perhaps you I will look at that, yeah. perhaps, you'd speak to us at the next council meeting, then. If I get a chance to look at it. Yeah. Fine. Okay. Christmas reading, then. Okay. That's what I want, yes. Erm, there be no other business. I like to close the meeting. Thank you for attendance. And this is the final council meeting before Christmas. Wish you a happy Christmas and a peaceful New Year. And just mention, just mention that there are, there is carol singing around the tree at the bottom, Thursday, seven thirty. Has anybody any idea why it's so late? Because we can't actually make it, because we're going out somewhere else, but we would have done it, if it has been earlier. It seems funny, cos you know, small kids go there Well, that time of the evening, you mean? Yeah, yeah, I mean, I would have gone I don't know why. I mean basically we have had organize it this year. As he has other years. Is it any later than normal or I said No, it's always about seven thirty. Is it? Yeah. I think one of the things, to be honest is to avoid the traffic. Because that's quite a lot of traffic going through there. Nice evening. I love it. I happen to tell you, that it's, we hope that the tree will be lit. It's lit again at the moment, but so far we've had something like fifteen bulbs stolen, and when that heavy rain comes, it fills the little cups and goes bang and the gentleman today, was busy drilling things out of the fuse box, where I think it had gone again. So. It's we lit tonight. I shall raise that. He says. Big problem. Look at me like that for Anita. Nothing else that needs to Could I go back to three environmental group, please David, er I've had er quite good news, Ford have agreed to er three diesel cars in their fleet for us to try. Oh, right. But they're going to be the smaller version, they're going to be Escorts and Fiestas, I think people need encouraging to use them, cos Well they'll extend their fleet if we do give a demand. Alright, we don't, people don't specify do they what car they want,don don't you just provide it? Usually they they they specify, people like our Roller. Do they, oh? Yes, and they tend to be larger cars. Well it stops the top from specifying. Yes. Yes. Get the diesels to tow it. Right. We've certainly had Escorts before, er Oh yes, yes, quite frequently. Anything else? Alright. Oh perhaps I should just report briefly that erm the erm changing over of erm erm some stage twos from my sub team to other sub teams became a necessary when Fiona returned very shortly afterwards. So grateful thanks to those people for all offering. Steve, one thing that there was mention to that and I've got a some pass it on just for people to Erm or leave it a bit I think. Er typing then, which seems to be generally satisfactory, although a bit of a hole in upon sub team one, it was a I think that was probably just one er one car load where there was a reporter in it, which is unclear at the moment. Come on John,. Oh I see, it's just one file is it? Mhm, yes. For the twenty ninth, oh good. Erm, right that gets us to the er performance analysis, and er graphs. I was looking at er the first page the which brings together the sub team figures, erm, looks to me as though the completed work reflects the priority that we're giving to stage two work, and I think we continue to weeding , particularly, remain anxious to clear out of the system as soon as possible all old stage two files, and I propose to continue to revue progress on those and with each A D as I see them. Erm, do you want to say anything about, anyone else want to say anything about page one? Alright. The second page which is Rob's sub team. A fairly striking increase in June. I notice. Erm, which has certainly been noticeable, is likely to cause a few problems, because in August are off, and so on. However, there's nothing we can do about that. It seems to have hit us more than anyone else for some reason. Marlene doesn't think so, I am an . Richard, do you want to say anything about yours? Erm, I was going to mention, as Rob has done the increase in new complaints, which I think is somewhat welcome erm, we're still taking a long time from the averages over the last twelve months, I think that's just reflecting being out some days over the ones you've been talking about, er, we're down on actual stage one equipments in the month erm, we're not quite sure why that is, mm it's just the way things have panned out. No, no member of stage two's gone out in the last month. Forty nine. Right. Chris's were average stage one time seems to be creeping up. That has something to do with erm Jill's doesn't it? Well not really, because the the erm the that due'll be nineteen weeks doesn't include er the No, that they Leeds Post Office one, because they They're all December. before hand. That the significance about that Leeds thing is that there's a, I don't know how many complaints there are in that multiple altogether. A hundred and fifty ? A hundred and thirty five. A hundred and thirty five, erm, all of which did take Twenty eight weeks, I think it was. Yes, so that until they drop out of the system erm, erm, a year from when that stage one decision was making, the teams over the sub teams overall stage one times are likely to be erm considerably higher than they will be in the month immediately after that er multiple has dropped out. Er, but I I think actually that the nineteen weeks er in June re is largely caused of er some clearing out of cupboards on the part of Jill, prior to her maternity leave. Er, Marlene, er do you want to say anything about your ? The, I mean it's only anecdotal, but it feels to me as though the the increase they experienced in June has continued into er July, I know that's not what we're looking at but it it feels that way, erm Thing was we had an awful lot of complaints last July, so it may not show an increase overall. Also the the June figure may reflect a erm er a catching up on May. I mean, May seems to have been a light month, Yes. although I guess it probably always is, and er Did you check the seasonality with Chris? Erm, that's come into the graph later on, Mm. But,basical erm June and July, er erm and August are always fairly busy. Before we leave erm seventeen fours erm sheet, the there was a question I'd have, I think it's probably addressed to Graham rather than anything, nothing personal about this,er, the actual state of equivalent in the month, the third figure down in the last box Yep. erm, why is it so much higher than the similar figure, the same figure for, my sub team, when I had the same number of stage one decisions and one more stage two decision? That same mistake, erm I I did it in a hundred and twenty three, the actual stage one equivalent in the month if It's ninety, that should be ninety one, Torched in ninety one? One seven six should be ninety one. No it shouldn't should be a hundred and twenty three . No it's Seventy sixty three . Twelve times four, for Sorry, twelve times f Four twelves are forty forty eight, for nineteen seventeen five . Forty eight into somethings.. I i is that a mistake which i did I get them Doesn't work anywhere else does it? Is that reflected in the I haven't checked anything. cumulative figure then? Erm, I doubt it, as that figure is, erm based upon the figures from the erm Yeah. from the main sheet. It's, it's not a, it's, I don't add the sheets up together to get to the er top sheet . No, right. Okay, that's fine. Yes. Doesn't effect the the front figure. No. No. Oh, well, sorry about that er Marlene. Mm. Yes, my apologies for raising it. It's been nice knowing you. Alright, if we look at the, look at the graphs on forecasting complaints, erm, said it's to my mind it's interesting, being about how the the choice of scale is going to affect one's perception here. Mm. Yes. If you think about, it's very difficult for looking at graph one than er than er looking at the more settled line on graph two, which is actually the same thing if you abide by that Yes, it is, yes. Yes that's right. It is. Er You could do it even better if you want with a straight line, if it's stretch the scales to infinity. Erm, so there's a there's a slight up turn erm in June by comparison with June last year. Erm, but because last July was very heavy, er, you're expecting Graham that erm w we might well be showing a down turn again next month and that's what I think we the last graph That's what erm does is is project us on, erm, Er erm July, er June is erm, according to Chris's seasonality figures, normally about erm twelve percent higher than the mean, erm so if they'll take the mean at about, at being about three hundred and fifty, you know we're looking at a figure of somewhere just over four hundred for July, as opposed to last July which was erm I think five er four hundred and ninety four complaints in the month, so it's very unlikely that that output figure will continue going up next month. Yo your figures after Ju , July over to December in the third graph are all, to put it politely, guesses. They are, they're guesses, they're using the current mean of three hundred and fifty one, erm, and then tilting that according to the seasonality er that's shown over the last five years. Right. That I think gets us to the erm paper which I put down this morning, erm based upon erm primarily based upon that last erm graph,an and Graham's best estimate of our likely out turn for this year, because they erm, in fact you're, erm you're reckoning that the erm, the number of complaints we receive by the thirty first of March next year, it'll be four two fo four two, is your best seasonally adjusted guess. And, er erm, based on three months and that's been a g could be wildly out, but at the moment it seems to be. Mhm. Which would be slightly down on er the number that we got in last year, erm, the next factor, erm, is not as yet a fact but is almost a certainty, that, er, all, we will not succeed on the present basis in persuading D O E that we should have any increase in t to reflect er er an increase in work, and next year we're anticipating getting in effect a stand still budget. Erm, although I think we will say that that would be dangerous thing to do and that we should continue to work upon the er the assumption that there erm er overall as a n , a nine percent increase, but, that seems highly unlikely that will succeed, erm What I've then done is take account of the various staffing changes that there have been during the year, both short term and long term, erm, and you'll see that produces a figure actually available to us this year of twenty seven thousand five hundred and eighty eight investigative hours, erm which is slightly less than we had last year, er but erm almost not significantly so, erm and it seemed to me therefore that if we weren't trying to reduce times, er, if we were saying that we would turn in times at the end of this year which were the same as the term times we turned in at the end of last year we could probably achieve that without any further recruitment. But of course we are trying to er, to reduce times. Erm, now I can produce some variants on the next few figures, they, this is the one in the third paragraph which says that two thousand eight hundred, er took two eight nine one two, er, hours would be needed this year, that is working on the commissions erm current estimate of six percent of complaints going to stage two, erm, the reality in York is that seven point five percent are going to stage two, and if one took account of that reality, and I'm bound to say that in in estimating terms we don't, but if one did take in reality that would push that figure for this year up to thirty thousand four hundred and forty nine. Erm, now bearing in mind that half the year has gone, or will have gone by the time anybody arrived here, erm it seemed to me that where I, my analysis of that situation was that if we were going to achieve our target times, erm, then the theory would seem to be that we ought to make, er, two appointments now, I E two appointments for half the year will be equivalent to one appointment for the year, and that will produce the number of investigative hours which roughly that the formula says we need to knock off the required number of complaints in the required number of times. But then you come to the problem, erm, because for ninety four five, erm, the formula suggests that we would need less staff, that might seem a bit odd but the, the reason is that if you do indeed bring your target times down, then the amount of work which your passing over into the next year is er considerably less, erm than the amount of work which you passed over into this year, Mm. the formula assumes that at any er as as of the first of April, half the work has been done on all erm files then outstanding, we've gone into this before, where er we think that that's er er a correct statistical way of erm dealing with things, if therefore you cut the number of er files which are going in, then erm, er I take it if you're cutting the number of stage two files which are being passed over, and that's the area where you're most fighting at er at time we hope, and it has a very, very considerable impact on workload for next year. And so you'll see that working on the commissions six percent estimate, er we only need, according to this, erm just under twenty five thousand hours. If you work on a seven point five figure, then you get up to twenty seven thousand four hundred and twenty seven hours, erm, before next year, erm,That would leave us with a difficulty I think, because if I were, if we went ahead with the idea of recruiting two people now er we would need to get rid of four of them by, oh four people all together, erm, by er the next financial year, which clearly is not terribly sensible. But where I am is in something of a dilemma, because if we don't recruit anybody now it seems to me unlikely that we will actually manage to reduce our times, that would in tern would mean we'd actually want more staff next year erm, so I have set out a series of options. Tails. I've got a flat sided coin. One does need to, going round drunning up drumming up customers, don't forget that. you're knocking on walls. Well the problem about, er two two does include , two does include going around drumming up customers, but the difficulty with that is it seems to me that that you'll need to drum up the customers in year one and only get the money Mhm, exactly. in year two, because the er, erm, so where I am Yes, but you're a two though, I thought this to erm, sort of even up the the work between the three teams Your rather than increasing the overall volume of . Er, that's five, really, I think, well two or five. Em, I mean that's good at way I am I think, that what we ought to do is to seek to erm, suggest to the Commission that York should take more of the Commission's total workload, I E to erm take some work from Coventry, and possibly also do a compensating transfer between London and Coventry. Yes, if one bears in mind that London's situation still seems to be relatively difficult, doesn't it? Erm, it would seem sensible if we look across the whole commission to try and even things out. Yes but it's the Midlands team that But I think that if you has the greater workload at the moment. Yes. Very incoming. I mean I, I, wasn't excluding working with them but if Yes. speed of through cut and er Yes. in other problems. . The other ideal, which I haven't got round to doing would be to try and appoint somebody on a short term basis. Erm, clearly we've got enough op , it would seem that if we could recruit somebody for the rest of this year, and er which would help us get our times down, if in if in fact we were able to recruit somebody who was instantly productive, which is not all that likely. Do we know what the erm the wastage rates have been over the last few years? Small. Very little ever occurs . less than one a year after. I I that's a problem that in terms of could see whether our natural wastage in er would would cope with it. Actually We're a long way off retiring yet, Marlene. Until, until, this last year. where er I mean, we have had two resignations, er Yes. this last year, which What you said a moment ago makes me wonder er about some of these calculations, because it, I take it assumes erm instant productivity, Yes. Yes. and y you can't calculate things any other way, I suppose, but in fact er n ne new appointees will not be instantly productive, and therefore will They tend to be. not in the vast measure reduce particular stage two workloads or times, erm I think they're more productive than we sometimes give give credit for We'll they, you get an early burst. You particularly get a burst and then you get a then you get That's right. a slow down or particularly. That's But, but it's still very useful. Well you get them up to stage one fairly quickly, it's the stage two isn't it. Because of the erm because of the erm of the total times involved, inevitably the stage two's are going to be, it's it's going to be in the second year that you're going to see reasonable output from them,not in first year. What's the reality of, supposing we took two on, and supposing the number of complaints steadied, or even fell, and the target times came way down, we're meeting everything. What are we really talking about when saying we would have to reduce the numbers of staff? Are we really talking about redundancies? Because if we are that clearly But conditions a great deal of what we do . I think you're only talking about redundancies if we can't erm take some short term work from elsewhere, er as opposed to, I mean, I'm suggesting at the moment we take stock a longer time Yeah. transition, erm clearly, er it would be a nonsense if we were making people redundant here ing if er either London or Coventry were struggling to cope with their Quite. er present work, and so I mean, you, you, could say we'll take it, er two or three hundred complaints from London, and buy time I suppose, erm to see if if if er work up here had picked up or natural wastage went or what ever, erm, if it didn't go up then, I mean in the long term, erm one couldn't envisage keeping on with more staff than what's thought to be a fairly generously assessed formula anyway, says we need. Mm. I mean the the formula, er, is not likely to be underestimating the number of staff we're needing, if anything it overestimates it, we think. Right. There's about five unpredictable variables in all of this, which is essentially The immediate problem is we're going to be three members of staff down fairly shortly. Well For You're not, well by comparison with Two of, two of them departed for a period of six months. Yes exactly, for at least six months. By comparison with last year, you will be ov overall this year by comparison with last year, er you'll be about point six of a member of staff down. And how many T Q facilitators are we likely to have? Two. And that's a day a week, as far as I remember. Mm. Yes. So that's that's quite a lot, if it's an investigator, which of course it may not be. Well almost certainly it will be, I think. Well There also of course the hours that it's the equivalent, it's the equivalent of two fifths of an investigator. Yeah. Erm But that is only a relatively short term thing again, and that period will consist No, that's Three years. the long term. Three years? Three years? Yes, I suppose so. A lot can change in three years. Yes that's true, that's true. And will, I've no doubt. I don't think anyone will go and gamble though on a lot changing in six months, which is the immediate problem, and you co Mm. Quite. you would take it, not want to take somebody on if we're actually going to make any body redundant next year. No, absolutely not. Other, unless anybody that you have seen and wo take your fancy is available on a short term, fixed term contract. I think only those who are unemployed are likely to be attracted by that, and I'm not sure how many we've got. Wasn't there some talk about Tricia wanting to come back to work? I, I, something floated in front of my eyes that she was thinking of applying on part time for the complaint examiner, but she didn't. I mean that is one area as the the complaint examiner matter where we've got, erm at the moment, erm the first corpus twenty eight percent going out in twenty six five, erm, which takes the food up, er a lot of those know will be going, I imagine, be going through investigators rather than Well they will be going through P as if everything goes Well, yes, yes. Okay. goes to plan. Erm And the the er formulas actually actually er reckon that we need erm three point seven complaint examiners at the moment. I think that shows something wrong with the formula. Well, except that work on the submission of twenty five percent going through the complaint examiner. Mm. Well certainly, you know, I think there there is work looking at the files that go through me, there is work for a second complaint examiner, because a lot of the files from investigators are actually fairly straightforward now Yeah. mm, I know Sarah's not dealing with them, so you know I'm sure that there would be enough work for a complaint examiner, but whether that would then mean investigators were light is is really Well there is there is an argument that says if P As do the twenty six five work, or the bulk of it, that Sarah might be a one team complaint examiner. Mm. One For a sub team. Sorry, for a sub team complaint examiner. Right. I mean she is capable of getting through some fairly extraordinary amounts of work. She does get through quite a lot that's true. Yeah, I There's a problem also I foresee problems with with that, there's no, there's a fair amount of travel involved, isn't there? Mm. And, Yes. you know, if she's covering a whole area. I suspect the amount of travel might be capable of being reduced. Well it might be, but I mean if we carry on on our present system then I would have thought there was too much travel for one person to be covering the whole of the area on the way we're presently using Sarah, cos she does Cer go and visit more often . Certainly on the basis of the way we presently use her, I'm I'm not what wo Erm, er, erm, people could extend her times if she did it like she used to do before, because what she used to do is to say she would have a a day in Manchester in a months time Mm. or write you down as time scale, you'd presumably talking about planning up to six weeks perhaps before she trots around. Never the less, I mean, there is a sheer volume there. Yes. Yes. However that's a, I mean tha I I I think her, she's always turned in twice the level that the formula assumes, or at least twice Mm. That's right. the level that the formula assumes a complaints examiner will That would still give us to complaint examiners, because the formula is nearly four. What we certainly want to get away from is the present situation where two sub teams don't have a complaint examiner. That's right. Yes. That's right. It is an imbalanced situation at the moment, it does mean that some investigators are doing types of work which They shouldn't really be doing. They ought not to be doing, literally. Mm. And for which we are paying too much. Yes. Mm. Because ultimately what we're talking about is the cost . I was going to say Pat's Pat's view is that, is that, Pat's view Isn't it? Yes. Pat's view that there is enough work to er have another complaint examiner really means instead of exec investigators. Yes. Rather than as well as. Mm. Well it does really, I mean if we, it's a question of whether the budget will stand the staff, isn't it, it's not whether we, er I mean in terms of of redundancies it's whether we cou , if we appointed people we could afford to keep them on, whether or not there was work, I mean we could have create work in some senses. If the D O E won't give us any more money, which they won't do. So you might have a stand Well still budget, now you would have some decrease in costs because there would be less phone calls, there would be less paper, less trouble. Yes, well when I say stand still budget I mean a stand still on the basis of of saying that there will be no increase in incoming work. Erm, Yeah. I think translating into financial terms that actually means less money, because Yes. because they will look at the formula, won't they? Well exactly, but I mean He probably sold it to them. e essentially, I mean the problem is whether the money would stand the the staffing. And next year it won't. Well On, on, the We are assuming it won't. Yes. Cos it does depend, I mean if complaints, first of all if complaints fly up obviously that's out the window, but Well we still won't have the money . we don't think that'll happen. Yes, that's the problem. Because this is the problem, budgets are being prepared for August . If, if, if, if, if Right. if we lose out the argument that we should put in for some increase next year, and and we think it's going to be very difficult to sustain an argument, Mm. then even if we get the increase in work we will not have the staff available to cope with it, No. unless we can divert money from other sources, but that's erm, well I mean that's the reality behind fifteen years of fairly steady growth, and I mean looking at at plateauing out, I think. So what would be the worst possible picture we could be faced with next year? Erm, we would have enough money to keep the present establishment going? No. No. Not even enough to do that. That's the problem with it. The worst, the worst possible scenario, would be a need to reduce I think two investigative, if we didn't make any appointments now, a need to reduce er by up to two investigators, should be also including one next year. Mm. But, I mean we're a long way from that, and I don't want people to think that I'm from saying er redundancies are imminent, er No. But on the other hand appointing people in that light looks a bit odd. When do we know Other than, other than on erm a one year, fixed term contract. That, that would be feasible. How, how do we pay for that though? For what? In the worst case picture, how would we pay for that? The one year fixed term contract would go six months into the next financial year That's right. Mm. wouldn't it anyway, so it would be taking a bite out of that reduced cherry. Yes. But I'd be prepared to risk that Right. if, if all I was talking about was twenty thousand pounds out of next year, I E six months, erm an investigator, a member of investigative staff, very roughly, costs us forty thousand a year in salary and office costs. Erm I mean a fixed term contract for a year for a new in , for an investigator, first of all we've got to find someone who would do it, secondly if that person wasn't frankly al already an investigator the investment in that person. Oh, were were only talking about complaints examiner I think Or complaint examiner, but even then the investment in that person if they come at the end of the year go, I I would say, what a waste. Yes, but you Clear you've got the option then if, that if the work did increase and they were satisfactory They'd fit in. you could offer them a permanent place . It could be in your contract. Yes, that's right. What you wouldn't have are redundancy costs, because you make people redundant and it also costs money, doesn't it? Erm, depends how long they've Well been here, but Yes, but I mean there would be Quite a lot. I mean if we're talking about existing staff, then it may not be enormous but there is an in there is a cost involved with it, But there, but financial as well as emotional and psychological Well that assumes the person might want to stay anyway, but Well yes, but So it's a lot of risks and ifs in that isn't there ? But they would, we had Olar who was very good and who very rapidly was was earning his keep, and he didn't even stay here, so, you know, if you make the right appointment, it's always dodgy that, you know. Teresa must have been productive fairly Yes. quickly as well in her role. I think you're probably looking at three hundred complaints, something like that, Mm. in the first year Why? but a lot of those were tiddlers, that that that maybe it maybe it's better to use experienced investigators, and and because they can do that work so much more quickly anyway, I I don't know, I feel a bit uncomfortable with this one year contract. Mm. Unless it was somebody we have already used, and that really boils down to one person in York, and she's shown no signs of applying, so. The last I heard Trish was going to become a teacher, I mean I I we are supposed to be trying to think about whether we can have a sh a panel that we of people that we can call on for the short term crisis appointments or whatever, but I thought historically that didn't work very well. Well the add hoc panel of investigators didn't work terribly well, but the they the idea of, if there are a pool of ex employees in erm and in the main we're tending to think about er you you're talking about people who've left to have families I suspect, erm, if if there is a pool of them that you can pull in, maybe that would work slightly better. Yeah. Provided they've not been out of the job all that long, I think, cos things change, don't they? Yes, I mean we're not in the position to do what some of the, certainly I know some of the banks do, which is to guarantee a job after five years, let people have five years, you know, the maternity leave plus a guaranteed job at the end of another four when the kids start school, on the proviso that you can call them in if you need them within that period, for a bit of extra help. To maintain their involvement with the job Mm. but I mean that probably wouldn't appeal to the people we have presently seeking maternity leave. I imagine they would both want to come back anyway. This is an emergency. Sorry, don't you mean the two of them about to go. Yes, well they're the only two we could be thinking about . I mean they, they both firmly saying they're coming back on a full time basis, Yes exactly. That's right. er for by the end of this calendar year. Yes. So were, they've already, we've already got those in as committed people next year. The other fact, I mean there's a lot of uncertain factors, the other one is that as far as I'm aware we actually have quite a large number of people, by comparison with the norm', actively applying for other jobs at the moment. Only four to my knowledge, I think. I know five. You think five? Oh yes, I think five. Erm Is that er er er Yes but I mean I mean these aren't the norm', I don't know what the norm is and this is the trouble. I I'm certainly aware tha It's more than we've had in recent years, judging by the general We've had a hell of a lot more people, now than we had. Ah. Mm, right. It's proportional isn't it? How I er er I mean there's no certainty in in that No if people apply any of them will actually people apply for jobs get something, yes . Yes, fairly regularly, I think, Yes. er some people. In two cases it's very much a specific one off application, Mm. it isn't an indication that they're going to be applying for any other jobs that come up . That's true. It's also one where the chance of success must be fairly high. Fairly high, yes. Mm. Yes, well Well, I don't know. I doubt it actually, I think they, it ought to be but I don't think erm the people appointing are likely to look outside the immediate environs, and Erm, it would be unsafe, I think, to work on an assumption that what we're going to er one post becoming available through natural wastage per year, and even that erm, highish I think. Well, where I currently am is is saying that we should seek to revue the Commission's overall boundaries with a view to us taking on some extra work, and that meanwhile we should suspend further recruitment. Full stop? Yes. No, no complaints examiner, no investigator? Yes. Hemmed in really, and look at the figures for July and August. Well yes, I mean clearly they mean keep Lyn That's what you're saying. under review and er You're saying suspending her, not cancelling. But is the thing is budget led at this stage, I mean isn't that, are we really, isn't the Well isn't the actual setting of the budget the key rather than, I mean if complaints shoot up, but our budget is static then we just got to cope. Yeah. But I mean that would apply if we appointed. Yes. Mm. Yes it would. Whether we appoint or not. We when do we know when what what we're going to get next year from D O E. Any time between October and February. Great. Requires real , that's the reality, I mean. Indications start coming in. I mean the budget presented will no doubt include an increase, we will put in a budget higher than this year's, I imagine, simply inflation and on costs, we'll will mean an increase over this year's budget, won't they? Well erm Erm, erm,that that's certain, and n a bit more at the end of the month, Right. there may be an expectation that we should, we should be absorbing increase in and getting roughly the same amount of money, but. Just like that . I mean I take it that nobody wants to recruit un until unless they're certain they can keep, No, absolutely not. the er the existing staff next year. Mm. That's right. That, that's an ea an easy question to answer. That's right. The the question mark I've got is tha is that I I certainly accept that, it's the it's the question of the work being done at the appropriate level and the erm, the the fact that two sub teams are working without a complaint examiner, and, but I I was going to say that, I mean if we do do that why don't we move to a position when, I know it's not finalized yet, the P As do the twenty six fives, and we try and adapt Sarah to do the whole s the whole of the four sub teams,ma maybe the threshold has to come down a bit, but but at least we've got some sort of parity of working throughout Yes. throughout the organization. Mm, yes. I think that may be something we have to look at if er if we're not in a position to recruit another complaints examiner . I don't see why it shouldn't work. I mean Mm. I think we're taking twenty six fives out. We have Well, most of them. Mm well Not necessarily all of the them, but most of them, that would leave the straight jurisdictionals and the clear no hopers, maybe the investigators would be getting a few of the ones that otherwise ideally they shouldn't but Yes, I can en envisage that somewhere, perhaps a visitor's a first step towards clarifying what may be a runner would be taken by Sarah at the moment, but er, which we would put an investigator straight from future, for example. How many complaints would a, would we be talking about then? I, I, I'm anxious to avoid a situation of double handling of complaints if we can. No I wasn't, I wasn't meaning that. No, well except that it would, it would happen to some extent, I mean the key is whether you, whether or not when a complaint comes in whether you can assess that it's likely to go to Mm. to a stage two report, isn't it? Or a stage two investigation Mm. if you can do that, then er only the other on , er all of the other ones can go to Sarah. Our past record on this isn't all that successful, but then again No it isn't, because I think if you, what you can do very very easily is assess those that are a likely on jurisdictional grounds to be rejected. That are That's, that's likely to be rejected? Likely to be rejected . Mm. Yes. That's a Oh yes. fairly easy. Yes, that's quite easy. You can also check er, and this this is a tiny percentage, those that are likely to go to a report. The trouble is, in the middle you've got a great gulf of lack of information, and predicting in those That's right, that's right. I mean you get, straight, no I object to this planning extension, looks fine, and then you start enquiring and all sorts of nasty things appear Mm. so I think we're inerent , inherently, er, unlikely to be able to predict that very well, but certainly if we can get the jurisdictional outs, and the clear no injustices and those to Sarah, then I think we should do that across the four teams, what we've got at the moment is quite distorting as well, in other ways, look at my Yes, that's right. performance and my sub team, of course they can clear more complaints than you're sub teams, they're getting the dross in. Well they shouldn't do cos cos Richard's got Sarah. Yes that's right. Well, Marlene then, sorry. Well you've got are you still recording that Yes. you on, oh that's still that's the one two, isn't it ? There should be an evening out, Yes, yes I mean it should work itself out. Yeah, sorry, I'm thinking of er Mm. You're looking at individuals Yeah, I was forgetting that that was that was calculated on the two. Yes, you're comparative performances as investigators will, well even that shouldn't differ all that much because those that have got Sarah available to them those are the teams who ought to be capable of concentrating more on their stage two work, shouldn't they? Mm. But the reality is of course that those, that my investigators and Chris's will be doing work that strictly speaking they shouldn't be, and I think that's Well certainly they, that that, work is being done more expensively there Yeah. than need be the case. Yeah. Do Well we normally have many complaints from the job ? we, we, we, we, we've, we've, we've got one decision I think which we are making, which is that we shouldn't at the moment, make any recruitment until we've got confirmation that we can guarantee employment next year,se , secondly I think we're saying that the first appointment that we do want to make is of a complaint examiner, and that if further investigators leave us, then we wouldn't be seeking to replace them as investigators, we'd be seeking to replace with the complaint examiner, that, that, that, What, to go to three complaint examiners? Oh no. Sorry? I'm saying the next appointment to be made is all by, a complaint examiner, what I shouldn't have thought we wanted to do at the moment more than one. Right. Mm. Mm. Erm And if a if although I mean there may be a er an argument in terms of lowest costing for reviewing generally how many investigators we do need, and Yes? and that's a longer term thing. We're doing in, in, in the short term. We'll be saying is that the first appointment of investigative staff to be made is of a complaint examiner. Mm. Sorry, I thought you were going onto say and the next one would also be. Well, I I I'm not going to be in anything. No, I'm the first, I wouldn't want to go that far ahead either . I think what you're saying that if anybody else leaves, then we might be in a position to make that appointment, Mm. maybe. W if anybody else leaves you'd be in a position to make the complaint examiner appointment, you're saying. Well that, we might be, we'd need Yes. to look at it again wouldn't we, but erm Okay. we'd need to look at it again, wouldn't we? But erm Okay. we'd be more likely to be able to make it. Right. Can we just take check then there how that leaves us with our recurrent recruitment program. You have produced, have you, three er potentially appointable complaint examiners. Two. Two. And a reserve, with So three? were there some doubts. Yes. Two definitely appointable, one yes, but with reservations. Mhm. Erm, and they've been told that we might not be making any appointment at all? No, no. What they were told was that erm a number of, a a short, short list would be made up, erm, with the possibility of them having a second interview, and they would be told one way or another whether or not they were getting a second interview, because we weren't in a position to say whether we were or were not appointing. Mm. Right. So they will be expecting to hear either they've got a second interview or they haven't. Well. The, the minute, the note last time said a pool of cand , they, they will be told that a pool of possible candidat candidates will be contacted to attend for final interview once it's decided to go ahead with the new appointment, so you could the thr the the three, or whatever it is that you are not putting forward, that their, that our interest in them has ceased Mhm. erm, but are we committed to seeing the other three immediately or are we Mm. well the where did we we No we're not committed. say to them erm we've not, we've decided at the moment, or we've not as yet decided to go ahead with the appointment, but when we do Mm. we will contact you. That, that's what We could say that . We could, we could say that, yes. Right. Well that would deal with the complaint examiners so That's the investigators, we're at what? They've got a long list, and I assume that the non long listed candidates have been told? Yes, they will have done . Yes. Tha , that's out. The long list have been told that erm, erm, notices were being made at and I think that's right, isn't it? I'm un , I don't know, actually, I'm not in contact with whose I'm not entirely clear what was said, but erm, they were certainly given no commitment to an an interview Yes, they've been told that there's been a delay in the recruitment process, and that they will be contacted further, I think is what Marg I think in due course. Margaret said, Mm. yes. Good. And their are seven of them in in the Six and one. Well, do we think it's worth at all, it's worth while at all going compared with them. No, I would have thought not, given that were looking at We're certainly not in a position to do so at the moment. we're looking at the most likely scenario being appointing nobody, and if we do appoint somebody a complaint examiner, it seems, Mm. seems frankly a waste of time interviewing them. Presumably we would only be in a position to be considering an investigator if both, we had a erm a greater number of complaints from around the Commission coming into York, and i and further members of staff were to leave. Yes, well I It would have to be a fair, fair accumulation of those two factors . What, I had in mind is to get us to a point where if we decided that we do want to recruit somebody we can do that within er er a much shorter time scale than than our Yes. pattern. Mm. Er, in other words if we decided erm come the end of this month that yes we're going to take in one or more extra counties from Leicestershire, we would be in a position immediately to erm convene the er rec the appointing panel for a complaint examiner, wouldn't we? Yeah. Er, now if we We could decided that we wanted a complaint examiner and an investigator, which I admit is unlikely, er we're much further along the, a much longer lead time there. Mm. Well, three or four weeks, I suppose, isn't it? Yes, we could, if you wish actually cut back the complaint examiner time further because there is a clear, very clear, front runner, who Chris and I both believe is appointable, so if it was a question of getting somebody in more quickly, there is the option of not having the second interview, as long as you're prepared to, you know, to forego that, to get somebody in quickly, but that, I mean that decision can be made at the time. Of course there's a further complicating factor that if we do actually put the breaks on, people may either lose interest or go get other appointments. Yes, but that's a But that's, that's sort of Six months at the outside isn't it, this works for? Mm. In two weeks. Is that what it is? Why's that? Well I think is not the It is although, but that's, er, were thinking of changing that quite radically. Mm. In my inclinations to actually go ahead with the with the interviewing round for your, er er how many did you say you? Six. No, sorry, erm, for the Women investigators . The investigator. For the investigator. Six. About six, plus one. I think six plus one, I think that's right. And get those to the same stage as the, the complaints examiner. Because then at least you might be able to write out a few more. Yes. You could be quite openly We are talking about, with either of those groups, making the appointment from that pool, erm, in fact any time between now and the beginning of the next financial year. Mm. If they were still available, and they may not be. You're front runner is, isn't local and unemployed, is he or she, your complaints examiner? No. No. Although presumably Sadly not. Has to get Is there still private practices? No? Just give a months notice. Where? Bristol. Okay. I think we reluctantly Now I would do it slightly differently, I mean I would say that we want you to, we invite you to the next round of our recruitment thing, but there i , er have no decision has yet been taken as to how many if any appointments will actually be made. So that at the time people are invited to the er interview Yes. rather than Yes. at, yes, I think that's fair. Yes, I I don't think that the this is bigoted as you think though in getting that kind of letter, I mean it seems, er that the civil service er recruit on that basis every year, and er, there is no guarantee if you get through the, the various screening bits that you do actually end up with a job, because that depends on vacancies coming up. Well as long as people are told . Well as long as people know that, yes, yes, yes. I think the first priority is that people are clear as to what the score is. Mm. Re , well reasonably, clear so that they, it it's fair to them. Erm, just to pull back a bit then, I mean, two things seem to, I mean have we, what is our view on you putting Sarah in the middle if we don't recruit, and two, don't we need, probably the four of us to look at current resources Yes. er, future resources,an and rework our boundaries as well because I, I mean losing Anne is not going to be that easy. Quite, and I I have got a high proportion of of staff and you ha you will have a a low one would you Yes. say. I think we do need to make some adjustments, in the light of that, if we remain in our present staffing level. Mm. From the first of September are you talking about? I would have to see, I think. Mr From round about then, cos I asked for the After the summer period. Well, yes. I would have thought so. I think it would be for us to talk together, the four of us for a start, and er, and bring proper proposals to future meetings wouldn't it? I think probably, what we could do with is a some criteria as to what what complaints are going to go to the complaint examiner if we've only got one of them. Yes. That shouldn't be too difficult, are we having We an L L M next month ? That's just what I was going to ask, because it would be September, wouldn't it? Yes, I think so, because we don't usually have one in M August, do we? That's right. The meeting on the thirtieth of July aren't we, with er what's Yes. his name. er Jack Taylor. Taylor. Er, after that people starting going on leave, is is anybody out away due in the first week in August? Erm, yes, me. Now normal , er now I mean, day would be the ninth of August, wouldn't it? Oh, I'm a, away the second of August. Your due back on the ninth? And back on the ninth. As I recall it, that we didn't have a week during August where everybody was here, indeed we looked at diaries . No. No, we didn't. Mm. No we didn't. Mm. No, we didn't. I I'm likely, er to be away the last two weeks in August, and David's going to be away the last week in August and the first of September, weren't you? Is that right? No it's it's the one week which bridges the two erm months, but er er I will be, that we would normally be meeting again on the thirteenth of September, wouldn't we? Yes. Mhm. Is that too late? Or too early ? No I couldn't accept. No. Okay, I'm getting to September. Do we know exactly when Anne is leaving? Yes. Tenth of September. Well she's stopping work, I think in late August, isn't she? She'll have leave, if she She She's got Sorry? some leave. I mean, she's she's effectively not getting complaints as from now Oh, right . so I've got to get rid of her staff. Mm. H right, shall we have a coffee cup for Good idea. Oh. He's right about the will. But they haven't discriminated Well they had one, but that was er, that was never changed from the time when we had complaint examiners before. Cos an investigator that couldn't do stage twos? Yes. In other words allocation was not, Yes. there was no intelligent decision on allocation, it was simply, Yes, that's right . allocate as an investigator, That's right, it was reallocated as a stage two . and then reallocated again, but I think that's daft. But there, there, most recent one was over a Sarah Patten, and the they are now repeating that one as I understand it . Oh, good. Yes. Well a high priority that one, so the they're recruiting two e , two new Sarah Patten ones. Right, erm, budget E control. I don't think we've got to the early days, made too many assumptions from this, particularly as they are seasonality er erm adjustment isn't terribly good. Er, we need to now have some to er cover the cost of proposed adaptations to bring support staff together, which I'll, which we've got in hand, and we'll also be miring money, I think from the salary budget to help with the cost of er the total quality training. Erm, the with with reference to something that comes up later on the training budget looks a small figure, as against what we're talking about later in the meeting. Er that's because the er the the the training budget at the moment down for York is purely er the attendance of professional conferences, Right. and everything else comes in the er personnel training, in lieu of the personnel budget. Oh right, right. Can items for the management team executive committee, I think I have three, erm one is to say that the the title of the total quality programme is going to be improvement through quality, in which case that's the, that's the phraseology which we should use from now on, is it like, it'll actually abbreviate to I Q rather than T Q. How effective. It's just one of those phrases that's meaningless in reality. Except that there's an implication there that there's, well I suppose there is a need to improve isn't there really. Yeah, quality through improvement, might be better. Mm. Er. Never mind. Secondly, there's an item in the management team tele-conference minute which are due to be confirmed today, the which I shall be querying about work in the office, out of office hours. Mm. Yes. Erm, and it is not my intention to implement that minute at the moment, because I think it relates purely to a London situation. Where are we at? Sorry. The commission's legal liabilities to establish efforts. No, well there's a ne it's the next isn't it over the it's page, I think Richard? Was this because of the over accident ? Ah, right. Yes, yes, yes. And the the logic of what's being said there is effectively to abandon the flexitime scheme out of, for working out of office hours,. Well wouldn't? Erm, I thought flexitime scheme began at seven thirty and ended at seven thirty? Yes, but a that that is saying There are so beyond seven thirty, though. Oh yes. What, what does that minute say. It says,until firm decision is taken the staff would not be allowed to work within office buildings out of flexitime hours . Out of flexitime hours, right . Yes. So presumably, for, that would be seven thirty Oh, right. to seven thirty. Right. Well there's no logic to that there because the the lack of cover and er whatever applies the minute the last person leaves, and that erm it lies that the the concern is that if somebody who was in on the building, in the building on their own has an accident, Mm. nobody might discover it until the office opens on the next morning, erm But there's always going it's that to be a last person. Mm. That's right. Yes. Yes, that's right . Rather than that's, but you make sure it's ju Except if you call Could be a last person at six er clock . the last people who leave This So what about are beavers, Four o'clock. who are on the staff, and in theory work until quarter to eight Well it's exactly the same problem, I think. Except there's two of them, and they're always to Not at the moment. Not at the moment. I thought there was two There should be two. I saw someone else floating around. There should be two. Erm, I mean it is a problem, and er one that we're addressing, but Mm. er at the moment I wasn't wanting to s s change any anything that, which is been happening up till now, I mean if people do want to come in here at weekends or late I don't see any reason Mm. to stop them at the moment. I don't. So carry the risk. is it, is it that the insurance were in there weren't they? yes, but is the insurance not, does it not cover people in the premises outside office time . No, no I don't think it's an insurance problem. No it isn't. It's a, no, it's a It's a worry about people hurting themselves. Yes. Yes, as you say, I mean I think that's erm for the people themselves Yes. I thought it might be that there was a, we weren't covered for the liability to pick people Quite. if something happened. Or we face prosecution. I think there's a , you face prosecution for failing to provide a safe system of work, or something. I mean that could be the case at eight. I mean, for instance, there is no first aider on duty, as apparently, well there's a suggestion that you need to have a first aider on duty if you've got people in the building. Good . Erm, and that's why I'm saying Mm. we don't have a first aider on duty outside normal office hours, not flexitime hours, and er, if you're letting that run the thing. No. Mm. So it will. Just forget tha about that and I will it this afternoon. And people all over the place. Yes. Yes. Yes they are. Take your first aider with you . You'll probably find the that'll that'll that'll throw the budget into confusion, won't it? The first aider would also need an ergonomics officer. Erm, now, the the third thing was about the training program, just to reiterate where we are on this, that if a request is made for personal development training in the current year, if you remember we , if we identify training needs that that we as management identify, that people need in order to do there present job, and then that takes absolute priority and we should get on and do those, but we get a large number of requests where people erm are, saying that they like to do things which they don't need to do, but which they think will better equip them, and if they're, if we're getting any new requests this year with an expectation that further expenditure will be sought in the next financial year, that's ninety four, five, then that request will be refused, in other words we ca , we do not see our way to committing ourselves to any Mm. training expense next year, er er er in that category. Although we might be prepared outside our normal scheme to fund the current year's training for such people on the understanding that future funding will not be available, so in other words if somebody comes along to you and says, I'd like to do an M B A, beginning this year, now normally we we would say, yes, we will contribute our half to that cost, er and that would then be a high priority on our budget to provide continued support for the rest of that M B A course, we're now saying that that the answer is actually no, because we cannot provide support next year, we don't think, er but if you never the less want to go ahead this year and then fund it yourself from then on, then we we have actually got money available which we can use this year. That make sense to people? Yes. Yes. It would have to be, given what we've just been talking about. Er Could I raise just the one minute of the Tail Conference, David? The erm, the the nature of the erm the fourteenth of June, the the the Total Quality minute, the it seems to be referring to a document that sets out various phases of the er Total Quality programme. Is it possible to get a copy of that? No. Mm. Short answer, I mean it's the the it's it repeats referring to a document which Gordon had produced,whi whi which has already been er amended, erm, which bit are you actually looking at? The item, item three. Yes,we ,we For the proposals in Gordon's memo were agreed. It seems to be referring to a document that that that sets out the whole total quality process as far as the commission is concerned . Yes, it sets it. Erm, no it doesn't, it picks out various bits from er er from a memo that Gordon dealt with, it doesn't set out the total alternate budget process . Ah, I see. Mm, Okay. Erm Thank you. Alright. You will simply need to wait until the thing is sufficiently settled that you can get the total package set out here, and Mm. we're not quite sure what it is you are wanting that you are wha what specific query you've got. Well I haven't, it's just that that people have said, you know, when the permissions available can we see it as soon as possible that was all, I just wondered if that document was available, No. but I mean if it's not yet that's fine. A bit like asking what heaven's like and being told you have to die first. Well let's hope that that's a good analogy. Yes, I agree with that, say that would The heaven bit anyway. that would re that would er ease your recruitment problem. I would point out that the same applies to hell. Right, that takes us on to looking at er Pink team minutes which we haven't got, is that right ? We haven't actually got the Pink team minutes yet. But and green team that we have, and We're well worth spending a few hours over this, I think. I think so, yes, and since my watch Can I minute that we thank the green team? What about the bit at the top of page two, which says that still don't use them in York This? at the analytical thinking seminar held in November. Yes, I I read that with great interest,I'm not at all sure what it means. No Ha Hardy phoned me last week asking for the details of jobs we get fr , er of who to erm who to contact for it, that's all for that needs. I see, she's probab presumably referring to the March, erm Yeah, yeah. and not the November one Mm. I have in fact si since seeing this sent her a copy of the paper I put to this meeting, erm, having seen that, because I didn't know that she was waiting for it to the commentary with. No. But it's on it's way. Seventeen, I'd wondered about. Erm Yes, I was intrigued by that one. I was going to ask to ask the assistant new commission policy. No, it didn't, er as far as I know. What is the policy? Was it everything goes second apart from er Reports. Reports. apart formal reports, and We, even even that is is that we we we we we even had a party on faxing, didn't we? Which I suspect has lapsed. Then we should fax the home one page letters. Yes. Mm. if possible. Yes, I'm not, I'm not sure that's still happens, does it? Do you know Karen? I think so, hmm. I expect I've got a tell from the files. It's cheaper to fax a one page letter than it is to post it. Yes. So we are reiterating our policy of faxing one page letters rather than posting them. I think that's worth the effort, yes. and er But certainly not announcing this first class post . and not intending to er send things by first class post . Yes, erm, do we accept faxed letters as complaints? Yes. Cos I thought we did. Why ever not? But I've only seen one or two, can we think about photocopying them if it's that thin, because by the time it gets to me sometimes it's not legible. Ah, well it should, you're probably talking about old ones rather than new ones, because they use fax machine prints on plain paper rather than I see. on curly and shiny paper . Right, well I I just just looked at one where I was struggling, that's why I mention it. I always love the idea of information disa disappearing slowly. Oh yes. Relatively quickly I think. I just wondered whether we've actually met the requirements of the, of the act . Matches my mind. I presume it does, but it it could be argued, couldn't it? No, if a complaints made in writing it's good . Possibly it is but it's not a na proper signature, it's a photocopied signature. Should we not accept an original Oh, got to have some bits of writing somewhere. The act doesn't refer to signatures, does it? Oh it does actually, yes, I have Okay, anything else on the green team ? I'm not bothered either way as long as I can read it. Right. Looking at, looking at Marlene's minutes then, page one. Page two, trying to pick up the bit at over the bottom of the door. Hmm? Your office appears unwelcoming. Yes, I was I mean we're not exactly trying to get people to drop in off the street, are we? I I er I er our office now appears in exactly the same way as the other two, namely that you need to announce yourself and who you are before you get let in the door. Yes. I was quite surprised that there was some sort of strength of feeling, that the balance between providing security, and the impression that we gave to visitors, although it was acknowledged we didn't have a lot of visitors coming in, there was a feeling to us. that it had had maybe tilted the the wrong way. I think with the the people who say that it should have clear instructions, it's not immediately obvious which button you should press, and maybe you, maybe something which says, Visitors, please press here, or something like that. Mr could please press over there. Exactly. Er. Because I never know in London which button to press, either the one at the top or the one at the bottom . I remember, very con , I remember very confusing Yes it is. I press them both and er See what happens. something'll happen, don't know what. I just hope the receptionist It always sees me arriving and Well she usually does, she's incredibly Yes that's right. Yes. good. Yes, that's right. They're nearly always open before I get there that er Can you do something about the? We will see what we can come up with that'll be weather proof, we may just have to keep on going out er sticking labels Great. The bit about reception is writing the visitor's name in the visitors book seems to be quite reasonable. I'm I I object on principal when I go to places saying write your name in the visitors book, so why should you. Yes, it actually came up What purpose does it serve? because one or two people have er relatives that come in at the end of the day to collect them or Right. you know, give them a lift home, and they felt that it was a bit discourteous to be asked to write them name in the book every time, and it it I mean it seemed to be quite reasonable that we're I'm less worried about being discourteous to relatives that I am to er other people, frankly. and and also not all erm there was reference made to, I can't remember which company it was, but somebody, you know, who was th not particularly literate had filled in the book. Well I don't think it's, I don't think it's terribly good actually to be able to to be telling other people who has already been here, erm Mm, good. I am conscious that I have visited somebody a while ago and noticed the name of somebody e in the book in which rang very loud alarm bells in my mind Mm. as to what they were doing there, and Mm. that therefore it would be better not to be doing that, so perhaps we can change that, okay? Mhm. How though? By not having a visitors book? Oh no, Jackie will ask for Yes. the name and just fill it in . but not get, not get them to sign it. No. She'll, she'll write their name . She'll just write their name. Dead simple. I was just thinking that maybe at the beginning of the day people could, if she knows who is due she could actually write that in, and when they came she could just tick that that they'd arrived. Well there is a of course the tannoy coming in, the Yes, I noticed that. cos the fire officer asked for that. Yes. Mm. Does the, but we don't keep a list, do we, of whose of our own staff is in the building No. No. Yes, Jackie has the whereabouts, now if she keeps, she also keeps a list of the erm support staff, but if they actually go out at lunch time that we don't know. Mm, of course. Or at tea, when they come in in the morning or when they go home in the evening. Mm. That's right, I mean there's a grey area between Yes. eight and ten in the evening and four Mhm. to six Yes. at night, we'd be very uncertain if there had been an alarm bells rang then. Coventry have a book which they keep for fire purposes of, signing themselves in and out. What would be easier would be a simple board with everybody's name and you just sort of erm put it across to in or out as you are coming up. Except there's quite a lot of people back there . There's fifty of us to put on it. I know, but never the less it's easier to So you couldn't carry it outside when the fire alarm went off . I was going to say, it's likely to be Well you could, you could have it on a hook. I've, I've, all little things, Sewn on. all the little things that er Yeah, Bob's wife. burned to death rescuing board. I, I, can't see it, it seems to be one of those things that has no purpose. Well, only in case of accident or injury, you see. Yeah, but I Well we do, we do have another means don't we, were by the fire officers on each floor or each area In each section. will, will check through Well the rooms in their area. if we're serious about that we need I think to review that very regularly, because I moved offices and discovered I was still a fire officer for a part of the office I wasn't even part of, It needs to be kept up to date. or was more accurately a fire officer for a part of an office that I wasn't aware of, so I mean I think. There should really be somewhere in the building a place which tells you who is in the building at what times . I don't know what question to I thought all were supported out, with the assumption that they were going to be No, I'm a fire officer. I'm a fire officer. So am I. Yeah, I'm a fire officer. That's why you're intriguing about this, I thought that We that would be alright for Marlene it would be better if they were support Yes. staff, because er Yes but there wasn't any support in Marlene's area. But when we moved them, There will be. there will be. That's true, yes. Alright, well maybe, perhaps we could have a review of why our fire Yes. arrangements are anything else on page er three. Trois. Page Could I just go back to er this health and safety, erm it says here that there is a personal alarm on reception, that's the receptionist. I could put another one on for any member of staff who wishes to take one to use at interviews. I thought that's what we said last time we were doing. No, you said would I bring it up at this meeting. Did I, but you you you brought it up last meeting, that that that erm people were going as supposed to be coming back with good ideas as to how to cope with interviews in other rooms, but we said in last time that we were going to have a personal round bill. A bit like the aerosol. Yeah. You did a paper which said, Yes. wherever an interview takes place people can take this personal alarm with them Yes. and should alert somebody nearby to listen for it, did that? So it took out All my investigators who want them have got personal alarms of their own. The ladies? Yes. Mm. Well presumably the men as well. Mm. If they want them too. All the ones who wanted them. Yes. Like this. Just something . Mm. Indeed. Bottom of page three. Page four. It's only just occurred to me erm, somebody mentioned that new members of staff, and the support staff ever since, but it needn't necessarily be arrive. And no one, sort of knows. No one is aware of what's going on, doesn't have a chance to meet them. Is it possible when we get a new member of, that, not that they're brought round, which I think must be frightfully intimidating, but that we are told, and therefore we can drop in and say, hello, I'm so and so, just to say hello. Oh, you mean in other teams. Yes, I mean I'd no idea who Carol was, I just bumped into her. It was in the minutes, you should have read them. I did. I said I assume this be Carol ? Just a small point, but I think when people arrive that they they perhaps feel isolated, and that we're a little unfriendly. Well we have got quite a lot of detail working package from within their own teams, and within the support staff, so you want that extended so that they can Nothing elaborate, just a note, perhaps to A D saying Mm. there is a new, perhaps your staff could drop in and say, hello some time during the week . I don't mind dropping in and saying, hello, we we are getting to a size where, er I think it's speci slightly impractical, I mean er I can see there was so might be useful to know there's a new member of staff here, it's either then say there was somebody wandering around, who are you and what are you doing here. Mm. Mm. Yes I think Just a little note,. Yes, I think that Okay. would be useful. So and so has started, or will start, alright. Yes,cert Then. in the week before somebody comes then I think perhaps a note saying, so and so's starting. Okay. Mhm. We haven't got anybody else's minutes to look at? No. The trainee plan, which I think I can now re-vote. If you want to say anything about that? Tie me up. Why was the Lotus issue put into this mo this year's training plan when it was last year's money? I don't know. I'm not sure. It actually took place this year. Did it? Yes. No. It was in March, wasn't it? No, no it took took place in the end of March. Did it? I thought it was the beginning of April . Yeah. It did. I just Yes. wondered if there was anything significant about it? No. Right. A bit I just Taking off and being done, that is. Okay. Can I just, er, clarify the poi , the very last item, the er the Jules, Jules M B E, erm I thought she was finishing new one? Er, well, she she's not being supported by the commission for year one, and in fact she won't be supported for year two either, so the thing that, I I'm I'm I put it in as a potential budget Well. thing for next year, but I mean she will be one of those caught by the thing saying we're not going to do it anyway. Is the attendance at professional conferences something that's earmarked, or is it just That's the five hundred pounds that's in our budget as opposed to in the the the personnel budget. Yes. There is I mean that that's a er that's a It, it's an estimate so that it's there if anybody wants to say. Yes, that's to deal with the odd request in the course of year. Yes, right. Right. C P D stands for Continuous Professional Development, it applies only to Nick at the moment. Mm. Okay? The analytical skills one you put seven hundred and fifty d down d d does that mean you had in mind that there might be three seminars in the course of the year. Er. No I don't think it'd be, don't think it meant that, I thought we went, to could be two, we're going to have another one. I think we had Yes. in mind that we should have another one but er Yes. the previous one cost us I think two hundred pounds. Erm, well I think we had budgetary provision in five hundred for it, and I think we've probably increased it, er was it unchanged originally? It means we might have some money left over after Yes, right, okay. mine's more suited to that, I think next time er once we've got somewhere out of the way and can That's right. actually get these things done. I was going to say, is there anything on the cards for local authority finance, or is that still awaiting? Erm Well, how about a memo about it to somebody saying can they suggest a potential person, you know. And we haven't had a reply back. Alright, consultation on twenty six five, procedures. This is Teresa's response to the proposal. If anybody wants to comment on it, or any I think perhaps just confirm the calculation about being roughly one a day, that erm if you take the number of decisions that we made in the last twelve months, twenty one point eight percent of which were, erm, decisions to be put out by twenty six five, if we divide that by four, divide it by fifty two, and divide it by five you end up with point eight six per day, er Is that right ? Quite sure why, how somebody else says that the number of twenty six five termination suggests that peers will be dealing with more than one file each day, well, but that's what the arithmetic says. Mm. And also would agree that team secretaries wouldn't be involved. Yeah. Yes. What, on the basis that if the P A isn't there the areas are going to to do it themselves. Or pass it for another. Yes. Either that or if there was further weights redundant to an investigator. And there is certainly no plans for other complaints to go to P As. Well, erm Are there? Stay with that a minute, erm, erm,I mean I wouldn't have thought we were in a position to give an assurance that er erm, that that no other complaints which appear to be outside the local ombu ombudsman's restriction will be dealt with by support staff, I mean I should think we're continuing looking continually looking for ways of dealing with complaints at the most efficient and effective way, and if that Certainly given assurance there's no plans. Well there are no no immediate plans you could say. Slightly disingenuous, in fact we are saying, there is a possibility that er Hang on a minute, I just wan want to work out what happens if a complaint comes in against the Gas board? Well the A D would perhaps, no I suppose it might not have reached me. No it wouldn't. No. Sometimes they do. So. It's already been dealt with by support staff . By support staff, and. Mm, yeah. Yes, Joe? So I don't think you,I should think partly we just cannot give an assurance that no other complaints will be dealt with by support staff, really that we. No, you can't, er, sorry, I was taking that literally that we we certainly not intending it, this was this was very much directed at twenty six five. Erm, nor I think are there any proposals to change the grading or pay honorarium to P As to reflect there work on these files, er, I'm not sure whether the assumption that this wouldn't be taken into account by the W R is sound, because I think one of the principles that I recall was that he were meant to ensure that that each of these job evaluation panels had somebody from each office so that an account could be taken of the different practices, I mean I'm sure that, I'm sure that each of the three offices in the er deal with things in a different way, so that er what gets done by one person here is not necessarily done by people in Coventry and York, and that in fa in London, and that also holds good in the other way, I think. Do we see any difficulty in er in what were in effect saying, that the base says, we have no objection to the proposed wording from either the extra duties recognized in outline above, and they're not going to be. Fine. Right. Is it at at the bottom paragraph? Yeah. Mm. I'm just trying to see what extra duties are recognized as outlined above, presumably, yeah. Well I don't have any problems with what you say. Well, on the para four job evaluation erm it seems to me that this is an item that can be fed into the, would automatically be fed into the evaluation process . Yeah. Don't forget we're talking about changing people, somebody's job description to include a Can you? Yes. Right, er next evening we settle the thirteenth of September then? Mhm. Outside the meeting can I just say I'm getting some of the new screening sheets through, you know first, but people don't seem to know what they're supposed to do with them and their in exactly the same position that they were before. Right, next piece of advice . er if you've got formulae, when you set them up, you should set them up so that you can copy them. Erm here I've got some formulae calculating production figures er we've got different quarters formulae found are somewhat similar er there's a so that I can copy one to any of the other adjacent cells outside will work I don't have to edit the formula or do anything to it soon as I copy it, it's alright for that cell. So it helps first of all when you're setting up the spreadsheet I suppose you can create one formula then copy it instead of having to edit each one individually, erm but later on you might accidentally or maybe deliberately in some cases overtype a cell and er if you have to put it back again and what you probably do is copy it from the adjacent cell and then you have to study the formula to try and understand it, and then edit it if it wasn't the copyable formula and, er it may take a little time to edit it but it could take you a lot longer to understand it. At the time of creating the formula you're probably fairly clear about how it works, but several weeks or months later,you've forgotten an awful lot. So er, it only takes you a second to er copy from an adjacent cell but it could take you a minute or two to get that formula working again if it's not copyable, erm, it would probably only takes you an extra few seconds er when you're actually building the formula to make it, copyable in the first place so it's well worth investing a few extra seconds up front to save you maybe a minute or so later on. Erm, something else that I may well do with this spreadsheet as well I can foresee is, insert an extra product, we've just got one row for one product at the moment but in the future you might want to insert another row and er the product B and then all I would need to do is just copy the formula down and I know it would work cos I made it copyable down as well. I don't need to copy it down when initially build it but er I might just put a little bit of extra work in I can make so and can copy it down. So make all your formulae copyable left and right and up and down. How do you do that? Er in most cases, the vast majority of cases you erm need to use the absolutes. Are you familiar with using the dollars in the formulae? Are you familiar with er what this C dollar four means? And what does dollar G three mean? What does the dollar G three mean? I thought it was just an absolute on one of those not all. So you put dollar in front of the column or the row or both? Yes. Three options I suppose or neither, I suppose there's four options er so what does the dollar G three mean? If it sticks with G then it might go down to G four or G five. Yes, that's right so if you copy the formula then they erm the G will always stay as a G no matter where you copy it to, but if you copy the formula to another row you copy it from the cell below then the three becomes a four and er this one? Means the four never change if you copied the formula? The C can change if you copy it to another column and the C put it to the right the C changes to a D if you put a dollar in front of them both then neither can change. So for the majority of formulae that's all you need to do to make the formulae copyable, so when I got this extra product to insert just insert the rows, copy the formula down and that change is made very quickly indeed, I don't have to spend a lot of time understanding and editing the formulae. Our little trap there there is important that you do all the inserts first. The natural tendency is probably to insert a row, copy it down, insert another row and copy it down, insert a row and copy it down, er, you need to do all your inserting first and then copy your formulae cos otherwise you end up with wrong formulae. Erm, take this example here, er, I've got sales being calculated, say units, times the price, C four times C six, now I want to add a product B so I might, I might be here and think oh I'll insert a row here and copy the formula and go up to there and insert a row, and so on. But if I do that, well, I copy the C four, C six down have C five, C seven and then when I go in and insert the extra rows then er, well that formula's not going to refer to those new rows that I insert it's still cell the right of price and the right of sales the wrong sales certainly. You must do all the inserts first and then copy down so that you end up with the right formula at the end of the day which is the C five, C eight. Next topic is on memory. A lot of people are confused about memory as to what it is. They're not quite clear about, a bit vague about what it is. I get people calling me up saying erm they've got a memory call problem and er, I've deleted a number of files off the disk, and the problem didn't go away. Well the disk is quite a separate thing from the memory so let me er try and explain, what the what the two are. I've got er a file named A B C dot dot U K One on a disk so it could be a hard disk or a floppy disk it doesn't matter and er when I retrieve the file, Lotus takes a copy of that file and places it, places it into what's known as the memory of the computer. Do you know what memory looks like? Have you seen memory, if you saw it would you recognize it? Yes. Inside the computer if you open up the computer you see these little chips, silicon chips they're about a centimetre perhaps in length and you'll see a row of, nine or ten of them, that's physically what the memory is. You might see several rows, depends how much memory your machine's got in it. Erm that's where your file is yo yo you're retrieving copies of them, removing copies that puts the copy into the memory. So when you're looking at a file on the screen, what you're looking at is the file as it is in the, in the memory of the computer, and if you change your spreadsheet, then all you're doing is changing what's in the memory. You're not changing anything that's on the computer at all. Sorry, not you changing anything that's on the disk. The only time you change what's on the disk, is when you save the file. Lotus then takes a copy of the file that's in the memory and overwrites the one that's on the disk, the only time you change what's on the disk. If you get a memory full error, it means you've run out of space here. If you get a disk full error message, it means that you've run out of space on your disk. So if you get a memory full error, deleting files off your disk, of course, is not going to make any space,. Memory is a bit of a misnomer erm, because if you switch the computer off and switch it back on again, the file won't be there any more, because it hasn't remembered it. The disk, however does remember keeping the file there, if you switch the computer off, your hard disks will keep the file there, floppy disks, of course, keep the files on the disk. So that's why you need to save frequently. There's all sorts of accidents not only having the computer switched off, you might accidentally mess the file up or erase it or whatever, er, you've still got the original copy on the disk so if you keep saving it every ten minutes or so, then you always lose more than ten minutes' work. How do you know how much memory you've got, on your P C? I know I've got enough memory Yes, so when you're getting low on memory the bottom of the screen the little red M E M appears, telling you you're very low, about to run out, er, so how can you check how much memory you have got when you're in One Two Three? Well if you do worksheet status, actually the screen is a little bit different from two point four, but it's looking similar like this. Er, you get two rows saying conventional memory and expanded memory, and two numbers. That's how much memory you had, to start with, three hundred and twenty thousand bytes and that's how much you've got left, two hundred and eight thousand bytes i if you've got a spreadsheet in memory so it's using up some of the memory. Erm, what's a byte? Or what can you put in a byte? How much can it hold? Sorry. How many bits? So many. What's a bit then? You've heard it somewhere or other. Oh that's right, yes, well we'll come to that, yes er, well a byte is a bit not that that means a lot, er, what's a bit? It's a zero or a one, everything in computers is stored as zeros or ones. A bit is an abbreviation, of binary digits something about what it means, erm and eight of them together, makes a byte. A byte is enough space to store a single character, a letter. Now everything in computers is stored away as, er numbers and a certain set of numbers represent all the different characters. An A is a sixty five, and other numbers are sixty five . Er if I remember erm so erm, that gives you a indication of how much space you can provide, erm we've also got some called expanded memory,expanded memory an I'll be explaining the difference between the two. Erm, oh you mentioned er, megabyte and things. What's er K, you know the word K? What's K? K byte? Kilobyte? What is it? How many bytes does it It's approximately a thousand. It's not exactly is it? Does anyone know the precise number? A thousand and twenty four. A thousand and twenty four, yes, and you want one K, equals a thousand and twenty four bytes. There's a strange number, one O two four. Not a strange number to a computer, though. Do you know what's special about one O two four? It's er the power of two Yes, it's the power of two. It's te it's two to the power of ten. Two times two time two times two . But to a computer it's a very round number. What's the next up from a K? A meg, which is an abbreviation of megabytes, and i the size of it. What is it? Approximately, that is. Precisely, it's one O two four. one O two four times one O two four. It's a bit. You know what the next level up is after megabyte. It's usually referred to as neg Computer bytes Yes. Computer bytes. That's right. Which is what one O two four. I don't suppose anyone knows the level up? Yes, that's right. How do you know that? twenty five years ago. used them. Oh, right. Right, that's error bytes, yes. Er disks on your P Cs are known, normally measured in megabytes or your memory on your P C might be measured in megabytes. You're using up a lot more disk space than you are memory space. On a typical P C you might have a hundred megabyte disk. Do you know how big your disks are? Do you know how to find out?a memory. I don't know what machines you got. Four megabytes is typical these days for memories. They tend to have a lot more disk space than memory. Erm, to find out how much disk space you've got. How big your disk is. How much you've got left. You can type ch disk, C H K D S K er press enter. The disk will whizz around for a few seconds, and then you get the rows of statistics. disk is fifty six million bytes in size, and er you used most of them down to three million left available. Erm you might, can you do us . You might get a message like this telling you you've lost some of your clusters. Have you ever lost any of your clusters? Er, if you've got DOS Five or Six, then er it doesn't say clusters, it says allocation units erm it's bits of your disk that er been er reserved as unavailable by DOS. It's not being of any, of any er anything in there, that's of any use. So what you really need to do is to free it up. Make some free disk space available er yet if you haven't done this check the disk for er six months or more, you probably have quite a lot of disk space, I would imagine, that could be freed up. So what you do is, to type check disk space slash and then it asks you wh if it comes up with a question, which I expect it may well, if you've never done this before. Tells you about your chain and your clusters and things, and it says do you want to convert them into files. You say no. This fact sheet actually says yes here, but eh, if you say no, then er it will free up disk space. Could be a free megabytes of disk space, quite possibly. Right so. Let's now explain how a memory is used within the spreadsheet. I've got this spreadsheet with the column matters across the top and the row numbers down the side. We've got this red grid over the top of the spreadsheet erm within a single column, covering er four rows you've got these little er blocks let's call them erm memory is used in, used in columns, so er, if you put an entry in any one of those four cells there, then er, within a, within a box, it will use sixteen bytes of memory. There's nothing else in this whole column, so that total column is using, using sixteen bytes. Erm in this column B, you put an entry in this block, so that uses up sixteen bytes, you've also got an entry in this block and that uses sixteen bytes. How many entries in that block, but because it's between these other blocks that uses sixteen bytes as well. You've got nothing else in this column, so that whole column uses forty eight bytes. That's quite significant. Now, let me go spreadsheet. Let's start off with all of them for your worksheet status, to see the memory. So, at the top there it says conventional memory, two seven four O four eight, of two seven four O four eight. We'll just ignore the expanded memory at the moment. Just look at the conventional memory er if I put an entry in a cell in the first block of this column. Then that should use sixteen bytes of your worksheet status. And that number on the left has gone by sixteen O three two sixteen there. Put an entry in the third block and er with the worksheet status again and the number has now gone down forty eight. So sixteen in the first block, sixteen for the third block and sixteen for the intervening block. Now if I go all the way to the very bottom of the spreadsheet, and put some er, an entry, somewhere near the margin there. Now its using sixteen bytes for that block, but also, sixteen bytes for all the intervening blocks, and there's an awful lot of intervening blocks between that and that in your worksheet status again. Er, you see the number on the left is two hundred and forty one thousand and two hundred and seventy four thousand so it's gone down by approximately thirty three thousand bytes. I have only got three cells with any entries. I've used up an awful lot of memory. And er, if I was to put entries all the way across the top of this spreadsheet like this, and then, all the way across the bottom of the spreadsheet, do you know how I got to the bottom so quickly, by the way? End and a down End and a down . That's right. Erm and now very quickly again because, it's filling up all gaps between this bottom row and the top row of the spreadsheet. Go into worksheet status, and just eleven thousand bytes. I'm trying to put an entry in this cell, in I eight one nine two, but we can't because we were require thirty three thousand bytes and we only have eleven thousand bytes left. It only starts counting from the first row of an entry and stops at the last. So, if I've nothing in these first four cells, and something in that one, and something in that one and nothing below. So, for that whole column, it's still only using forty eight bytes. If I go back to the diagonal layer, quite often I get a question . Does the diagonal layer use up more memory. But as you can see now it doesn't, because you're only using memory where you've got the entries. It stops counting there, and it stops there. Er, if you was to put everything on top of each other, for example , then erm, there's probably little gaps between one section and another, and those little gaps are using extra memory. So, that now I am releasing the amount of memory you could actually use. You can't use less than that I suppose you could things going across, that reduces the amount of memory, not ruin the layout. Instead of deleting rows, you mess up all the others. Er, several entries will use up additional memory, as the minimum amount of memory they will get used erm, but certain entries don't use any extra memory, and in fact, in this column here I've put an entry, a whole number six, seven, eight, nine, ten etcetera, into each of these cells and er that column there, still only uses forty eight bytes of memory. In certain entries th tha which I'll come to shortly, do use extra memory, er, just say a few things about er, the one, three of these, three of the Windows products, which er, one of you is using, erm, it uses memory slightly differently, er, if I put an entry in row one, and a ro and an entry on row five one two, then yes, it er uses memory for that whole range there. But er, if I also put something of row fifteen thirty seven, then it doesn't use memory for all those rows between there and there. The way it works in three, is it only uses memory within these five hundred and twelve row boundaries, so any between one and five one two, five one three and one O two four, one O two five and one five three six and so on, it'll fill in the gaps within those ranges, but not outside of those ranges. So that spreadsheet is just sorting them all way across the bottom and all the way across the top. Er, we've not used very much memory at all. That's three of the Windows product. Erm, so other entries will use additional memory, if it's er, a whole number less than three two seven six eight, then no additional memory will be used. But if you put a number that's bigger than that, or it's got any decimals to it, then er, you'll use eight bytes for each number, additional eight bytes for each number. So if in A one to A four, you got the numbers one hundred thousand, that'll use sixteen bytes for the block, plus four times eight forty eight a total for this cells. Erm, labels will use additional memory. Er, six bytes across the number of characters over the four characters. Er,er, the entry that uses the most memory is er, a formula. Even a very simple formula, a plus and a will use an additional thirty two bytes and the longer the formula, more entries in the formula The more, the more, the more you put in the formula, that more memory it takes, but even a very simple formula, uses up quite a lot of memory. So you'll tend to find on most of your spreadsheets, it's the formulae that use up most of the memory. Now you're limited to about three hundred and three hundred three hundred and forty K of conventional memory, and you can't increase that, you can't,yo you can buy more memory, and instal it into the P C, but er, you can't increase your conventional memory available to your spreadsheet, much more than, let's say about three hundred and forty K approximately. Er, but what you can do is instal something called expanded memory expanded memory, and you can have up to twelve megabytes, so that's er,twelve thousand K. This is not to scale, this is going to be much bigger than that. So, sounds fantastic, you could make spreadsheet enormous. But unfortunately, you can't use more than about, probably five hundred K. Nearly a thousand K , but probably about five hundred K on its standard memory. Probably about the maximum you can use. Even if you've got twelve megabytes, you can't use them, let me explain why, erm, it uses the sixteen bytes per block, solely from conventional memory. It puts only certain things into expanded memory. It puts formulae in, that's very useful, as I say it's formulae uses up most memory, but it doesn't put everything. And, the more you put in a spreadsheet, the more and more of the conventional memory you are using up, and eventually when you fill up your conventional memory, you get a memory fault. Even if you've got lots of expanded memory left unused, you can't use it once your conventional memory fills up, that's it. You get a memory fault. You don't have this problem with problem. Erm, if you erm, maybe erase part of entries of the spreadsheet, you think, oh that's going to free up a lot of memory, er, probably it won't. Once Lotus uses sixteen bytes for the block, it doesn't let go of it. If you put an entry in a cell, put a number one in the cell, then immediately erase it, it doesn't free up that sixteen bytes for that block. And if you're working on a spreadsheet, you may be working on a spreadsheet during the day, start in the morning, you're working several hours, you may find yourself running low of memory, then the memory light comes on or you get a memory full up message at some stage, and you think oh that's not fair, because I haven't made the spreadsheet any bigger. Well, er, all sorts of things cause memory to be used up. Er, one thing that tends to use up a lot of memory, is when you insert columns on the left of the spreadsheets. There's nothing in that new column that you insert, but nevertheless, it uses enormous amount of memory. It uses up as much memory as any maximum column on the right that uses memory. Erm, so what can you do? Well, the answer is pretty simple, you save the file, and you re-retrieve it, and when you re-retrieve the file, erm,it erases the memory to start with, and then erm, fills up the memory from scratch and if there's nothing there any more, then it won't use any memory for it. So you're simply saving . Find yourself running low on memory, save the file and retrieve it back again. Then you may well find a lot any extra memory. Er, when you use range erase to erase a cell, to erase the contents from the cell, so that's er,put the numbers in the cells here. I'll format out ones to the next two decimals, range formats, I'll make that unprotected cell the range protects. Ah, suppose I erase that cell there with range erase then I get rid of the number of course, but the cell, the cell remains formatted, you can still see the F two at the top grid references. That means it er, formatted to fixed two decimals, and er, that counts as an entry as far as memory is concerned. That will cause sixteen bytes to be used in that block. Even if you save and retrieve the file, it won't free up the memory. And similarly, if you've got an unprotected cell, this one is an unprotected cell, if I erase it, range erase, then the number goes, but still the cell unprotected. How do I know it's still unprotected? There's a U. There's a U in the top left hand corner, yes. Er, and that counts as an entry, as far as memory is concerned. Erm, so you would leave what I call this deadwood lying on your spreadsheet, cells that are using up memory, they're not needed any more erm, on many people's spreadsheets I've discovered quite a lot of deadwood using up large amounts of memory, like in some people's cases two-thirds of the memory used by the deadwood. Certainly, you need to get rid of it, erm, you know how to erm, get rid of the F two don't you? You gonna tell me? Yes, that's arrange format reset, could get rid of the F two, and you know how to get rid of the I thought there was more people on that side of the room. ask questions. Sorry, er, what would you do. Somebody say something. Er, changing the global protection doesn't affect the U. Range protection. You need to re-protect, the range protect. Erm, so, if you really want to erm, make sure there's no deadwood, what you would do is do a range format reset of the range you want to erase first of all. Do a range protect on that same range and then a range erase of that same range. You know, it's a lot of tedious having to do all three steps. That's what you would need to do. However, there is a tip to erm, you can do it in one operation. What you would do is copy a blank cell. So you got a cell that's not got any entry in it, is not formatted, so you're looking at the panel you can see that there's no, nothing in the parenthesis, and there's no U. So if you copy a blank cell, over what you want to erase. That's the best way to ensure that you've reset everything. When you've copied the blank, erm, it's not formatted, it's not unprotected, as well any more So How can menu You would still have to save and retrieve the file to create the memory, but yes, that woul would be the idea of it . You don't leave deadwood on your spreadsheets, cells that are formatted or unprotected, cos not only do they use memory where you've got the cells but between that and something else. So quite large areas of your spreadsheet could be using up memory unnecessarily. If the memory's full erm, is it to stop you putting up your as files, is that right? You could save and file, yeah. Erm, that's all very well, er, saying it now, but you might have a lot of deadwood on your spreadsheets, er,ho how can you get rid of it? Well, the problem is, you don't know where it is. But it's not invisible unless you move the cell pointer around all over the place looking in the top left hand corner. You can't find these deadwood cells. There's not really a practical to move the cell point to around every single blank cell on your spreadsheet. Erm, one thing you can do is er, if you know that there's a certain range in the spreadsheet that's of any use. That's the only part of the spreadsheet that's of any use, then you can do file extract formulas. Highlight that range, and save it to a file. And er, into that file you save everything, that's within that range, so you save the of course, the numbers, the labels, er, the column widths, range names. So anything of any use, within that range, you save into the file you extract to. But anything outside of that range is not. So cells that are formatted with nothing in them, cells that are unprotected with nothing in them. Unless you know the type of deadwood that occurs in many people's spreadsheets is, the space character itself. No doubt, there's several of you here who are guilty of this. When er, when you delete, er instead of using range erase, you use something else, don't you? Sorry? is it the space bar? The space bar, yes. That's right,s so there you go. I knew it would be the case. So as long as you get rid of that one, two, three, four, you can press the space bar and then enter. It looks like we've deleted it, doesn't it? Erm, what I've done is, I've put a label in the cell. See the label prefix in the top left, and following it, there's a space, that's a space character, which is invisible. But it looks like we've deleted it. I it is a character, as much as a another letter A is a character. Which is an invisible character, I thought. You wouldn't go typing Ass all over the place, would you, but er, spaces, no problem. And er, it's understandable why people do use the spaces, it's a nice big key. And, if you're just deleting the one cell, it's just the two keys. big space bar, the key at the front, and the big enter key. It's an easy, it's a lot less fiddly than slash and then trying to find the R and the E and then enter. That's why people do it. Erm, you can other problems as well with the space characters, got no memory. And so I don't recommend you do it. Erm, in two point four, you just do it with one key, if you want to delete a cell out that's del. Just press the del key, and it's gone. You know about that one? It's a bit dangerous if there's two ways you can accidentally press them, and not realizing you've just deleted the contents of the cell. So, that's right. So watch out for the del key. Deletes straight away, with no warning. Gone. I've pressed it a few times by accident and then needed it. Nor normally I just type it in. Right, any questions on any of this so far? Er, diagonal spreadsheets is also good for getting rid of any deadwood. Erm, cos what you would do is you would er, reset that whole range, that whole range, that whole range, that one and that one, that one, that one, that one. I know I would never put anything over there, or over there , or over there , over there . Knowing quite happily to just rid of all of that. Copy a blank erm, and that would get rid of any deadwood that there is on the spreadsheet, once you've done that, and you've got rid of any deadwood. If you hadn't been consistent in laying them out like this, then you can't so quite confidently go round, go round erasing large chunks of the spreadsheet. And you tend to have less deadwood on a diagonal spreadsheet. Instead of erasing, you can more often will delete, whole rows or columns. You don't need that row any more, so you delete it. And you do and then you not only remove the contents, but the cell formats and the unprotection I'll ignore that, we any more. Two point four. Right so, now you understand how the memory works, and you obviously realize not to leave big gaps between one thing and something below. Erm, when you start One Two Three, if you get er, the menu at the top saying One Two Three, think about and translate or you just go straight into the spreadsheet, you do get the One Two Three you're starting er, from what's called the access menu. Er, in DOS, if you type Lotus, you get that access menu, with One Two Three translate, if yo in DOS, type one two three, the numbers one two three, you go straight into the spreadsheet, and you have eight K more conventional memory, if you do. You don't go through the access menu, an eight K conventional memory means could put more into expanded memory more conventional memory you've got, the more you can put into expanded memory. Right, any questions on that? that much expanded memory if you they can only use five hundred K? Erm. Well, they probably don't have that much. Do you know anybody that's got that much? Erm, a lot of people have got, maybe, five thou three thousand. Depends how much ma if you, maybe new P C these days, it would normally have it already on it four thousand K of memory, and three thousand left could be converted to expanded memory, but it's not worth it only use five hundred K of it probably. And you might could try a thousand K, erm, with oth other programs, if you start using Windows,y you need to use the so software called Microsoft Windows if you're going to use one to four. And yet, that would use all of that memory. But er, one two is that, you can't use all the memory you've got. Erm, the short section here on useful formulae, in fact, basically just one formula. It's useful in design. Erm, I've put a label A B C, in one cell, D E F in another cell, and in this cell B five, I've got the formula, plus the three ampersand B four, and th the result of it is this longer label, if you join the two labels together to make this label A B C D E F. Anybody using ampersand at all? You have used it. Erm, what have you used it for? for that sort That sort of thing, right, and why did you want to use it? Erm, let me just demonstrate how it works. A B C D E F you put ampersand that. And it's a formula, so if you change those cells, the formula will be calculat no, let's type my first and second names in, and er, it's the two names together. It doesn't look very good, having erm, first and the second name without a space between the two, but I can actually put a space there if we entered a formula, by putting a double quote space, another double quote, and then another ampersand, filling the spaces of D six. There we go. So why would you use it, er, that's have a look at . So, I've got a parameters s section that we were talking about before, putting all the things that you might change into one part of the spreadsheet. So a department name, the admin department, a department code,one hundred, and as I was saying er, you wanna to get in the top left hand corner, any information that keeps you informed so I wanna get both the department code and the department name into that one cell. You've only got the one cell left available. I need to get both pieces of information into that one cell. And I can do that with this formula. I can do that ampersand that or those two cells have got range names the range names. Erm, if I put a space in, it might look a bit better. You don't have to have a space, you can have anything you like. That, perhaps and I change the name of the department, the er s marketing department, department, erm, one O two. Let's change that. The one O two you might notice here, has been entered as a label. If I was to enter it a number, one O two. It's a number now on a label, then, this formula doesn't like it. It says error. Cos you can't join a number to a label. By the way,you can convert a number to a label with a certain add function. I don't suppose anyone would know . a chart. Er, it's something like that er,is the word that two parts, two arguments to the string, there's the number B four comma, and then a number for the number of decimal places you want in your label, so zero, so I get a label with three characters here one O two. If I put a two there, I'll have an extra three characters and gives me a full stop and two zeros. Sorry, that change of one number to label. That's a label now, yes. See, it's left align, whereas that's right align. That's a label. Now multiply that by two then er,zero on rather than the two. Erm, so what I can do is to put the B four here inside of that string comma zero. There we go. So, that's the use of that. There are many other uses for these formulae. The formulae that work on labels, they're never string formulae. The ampersand joins one label to another, I use the word join erm, it's not the official technical word for what it does, does anybody know what the erm, official word for what this does is known as? Concatenate? Yes, concatenate. It concatenates. Concatenation is the alteration that er, the ampersand does. Programmers concatenate a lot. They concatenate their variables. If you ever hear programmers talking, you might hear them say something like that. Have you concatenated your variables today? But er, these the word joining spreadsheets terms. Bit shorter, not as funny. So, that's the er,I want cover in the next section. We'll now have er another test. I'll give you a few minutes to revise, then er, we can see if the er lesson Does anyone know what time the coffee break is er? The canteen's just opposite there Right Right, do you know where we er slot the last one? It was just after er, page thirty nine, so on page forty three onwards Right, are you ready? Er, the left started last time, so the right can go this time. Erm, what was my convention for lines? table, erm, double dashes for the total and full stops for your sub total. Yeah. Oh yes, quite right,across almost right, not quite. Ah, cheating. That is. double line at the bottom of the Which side are you on? Total, yeah, he's on our side. That's what I said. Single data sub-total. Double for the total and a row of dots for your sub, sub-total. Your two lots of double lines. Have you got any an answers on that on the right? One of you left sorry, on the left, you're not on that side, are you? No. Erm, well erm, what you said was correct. Th the double line doesn't mean necessarily th that the total of it is the end of the sub-section, the dots,sub sub-section. So er, I won't give anybody any points. Oh Er, over to the er left this time. What was my invention for indenting. How did I do the indenting, with the sub-titles and totals? Well, you you indented them . Oh no, no, no, You have them in the style of how you physically did it. The style, yes. No, you had yours I'm not sure Then, then all your erm, your data under underneath your heading you indented. How much how much was various things indented? Two or three points. So it looks good, but it looks alright. Alright, erm, well I remember how do I get a sub-title and then a total at the bottom? You know, you had the sub-title and things indents below that, then a total. So, how did I indent the sub-title, the detail and th the total line? Your first title was indented the same amount as your first title. Right. Yes. Then your grand total was right over to the left hand side. Yes. Er, oh in the example that I gave, yes, because it was totalling what the grand total. Well, A B various sections. Er what was it lined up with? What? The grand total or Yes. The grand total. What was It was lined up with the erm, the title of that column, Which was the Erm the actual heading, yes. So, in the example you're referring to, I had like a title and then I had a sub-title and further details and another sub- title and further details, and then I had a total line Yeah. sort of grand total here. So, what was that gr the total was totalling everything. The whole of that. So what was that? How here. What was that line here that one. With the top line. Top line That's the one, yes. Right, that was my . Give me about two points for that actually. Shall we give them two? Erm, in the titles of the spreadsheets, in the top you know the top rows of the spreadsheet. What did I put where? There was various types of information Are, varied wannit. No, variable en There's things. Yes that vary and things that don't vary. Where did I put them? Yeah, the thing that varied the less was the top and the most at the bottom and the middle was the middle. Yeah. And things that don't vary? Bottom. Either in the top Er, the along the line at the top, you know Not the top left. like the date and the time you know along the top right The right. Not, not yes, that's good. That's it. Right good. Over to this side now, erm,give me three things that you can do to make it easy t for the eye to see what er, particular number is refer w which rows is referring answer to? The shaded one Yes, that's one and what every row? You know wouldn't it Yes. Testing. Right. Inset row, That's one, shading, every so many rows. Blank rows, every so many rows. Inset what, sorry? A blank row. A blank row, yes that's two yes. And put your titles on both sides. Put your titles on both sides, right. Okey-doke. put the side You've How should you format your spreadsheets? Could you rephrase that please. Erm On the large side erm I could guess. I don't think I will Diagonally. If you were putting form, you wouldn't have to . No, I'm talking about the cell formats, you know I can fix two decimal, the comma format. How, how do you set the comma format? load Load How do you do that? erm, range format comma two enter. Erm, we've got several different answers to the same thing. What's the er how do you do a global format? global formula in Right, okay. Alright, I'll give you that then. On the other side, on a new spreadsheet what is the new global format called? Brand new spreadsheet. What is it set to? two points. graphs? General. General! Right, yes. Which is what? Which is what? Indent. It's called the general formula. Yes, but isn't the general formula got a Er, it's, it fits the number you can, to be typed one, two three point one, you'll see one, two three point one. Oh, right. Er, if you type a very big number, you might get the scientific, that is what the E thing. Erm, right. Okey-dokes. right again. Erm, erm, what's the advantages, two advantages of using these global formats? two erm, That's right. And global. it, it's easier to have the global change things come out of the global and change things. Yes. It's easy to change things if you say, I want, three decimals instead of two whenever. Change them over and everything. All the global settings change, yes. That's one reason. Two reasons? It would be easier than a password if you need to check out changing the Yeah. You don't have to format something and put them in. That's right. That's it. Right. Good to the other side. Erm. Give me er, four pieces of advice in a bag. Don't go out after nine o'clock. Don't do after nine o'clock. Erm. A wise advice about the typographical style, you might call it, er, Don't use more than Don't use more than two, yes. Okay, that's one. Oh, this thing about landscape and style consisting. Give 'em one, there, yes. Two. Don't use auto compress. Don't use auto compress, yes. You need one more. Don't know, I can't think. You know the we got, you don't need it on. Or is that related to auto compress? Sorry, what did you say? Don't attach with you . Because if you got auto Don't erm, right now, now say erm,realize that when you are using it. Oh, right. Not too many lines Yeah, okay, too many horizontal vertical lines I also mentioned er, not marrying the row heights, get more on a page. that. Okay. Erm, now over to the right. Erm, what should you do with the At Sum? below that row. below, yes. Okay. Erm, on the other side. Why? So that if you don't . If you insert a line At the bottom. Total. If you insert a line underneath Right. Okay. Certainly not right. Erm, what did I recommend you do with whizzy-wig. In the case out sum. Er, well draw a line, you do have to have an extra row put on it. So what you could do with it. With the bottom line. What did I say? to the top. at the top That's right, you completely You can reduce that row And you could put a line in At least there are you can about one and put a line on the top of the total line, er, afraid that's wrong. What was the question? Erm, with, when you, when you drawing a line with whizzy-wig, and you got the At Sum below it, how should you do it? Oh, That's what she said. That's what she said, yes, but er, she got it wrong. Yes, it they did. Oh, I don't know Yes, that's right. That's one point. But what's the other point. There's also got wrong on this side. About the line. Where do you put the line? bottom of the line. On the bottom of the blank line. Yes. Put on, on the bottom of the blank line, rather than putting it top of the total line. Yes, because if you do that, you know where you've put the insert. Right. It's the left's turn again, I think, isn't it? Right. Erm, what's a danger with long formulae? Chopping the How can, how does the end get chopped off? If you insert more rows than the numbers Cell addresses Cell address get longer Get longer. And they get chopped off where? About to two hundred and forty characters. Erm, but what, what do you have to do to chop it off? Nothing. If you didn't say anything, if you didn't give a me editing for a formula or copy it to somewhere else where the cell adjusting are longer, then it makes the formula longer and then you get So the formula get longer, okay, but it er, works alright, until you do something. What's that thing, something you do that causes it to get chopped off? Call F two call it up again. What did you say then. If you press F two F two, that's what I was after, yes. If you press F two, and then do what? It loses the chopped, the end of it. Yes. Oh, so if you don't, if you don't call it up to edit it, you can keep changing it and it will still stay the same? That's right. Oh, right confusing Er yes,right erm. What did I say about how not to input certain numbers? Slightly vague question. What shouldn't you do when you're inputting several different numbers? Vague question. It's an easy answer to a vague question. So it does look . You've got several numbers to input. What should you do ? too vaguely. Several digits or several numbers? Different numbers. You got sales figure and the unit sales. Sorry Yeah, erm,down the individual figures. Yes. of one. Yeah, give you half. Oh, that's unreasonable. graphs. What was the, what was the answer? Yeah, but they didn't put it down individually on spreadsheet. Yeah, then put all the, all the separate inputs in, in one cell. You remember when you did that formula hundred divided by an eight brackets, something, something? Oh, I see, oh right. Right. Erm, how cross checks. I want precise details on this. Put F formula. F formula, right. Underneath the two Where do you put your F formula? Up in the right hand side of the work in the bottom of your column. Okay. Yes. And how do you The erm er the question checking the answer. You put a test in, don't you? Test Whether it's greater or less. What's the test? If it, if it like this, then put this answer, if not I know but erm if I don't see I'm gonna crack. Ah. Right. organize you for doing that scan. Mhm. See what's going on. That's the results about ten minutes ago, an hour ago. Yeah. And that's clear as well. So There's obviously something not right, Doctor . Aye there's something wrong. working right. Where will I go for the scan? Er I don't know. I need to phone down, see if they've got a time for you today. Mhm.. You still ? Aye.. Do your loft up. We can, it's alright up there. I've got an auntie that lives up there. and she hates it. She wants to go back to . I don't to be quite honest I don't think there's anything left of . She doesn't like it in that new place . No no. And she's getting the nurses up. Is she giving them a hard time? Giving them a hard time down there. Is she? Aha. Who's that? My Aunty Peggy . My dad's sister. I was in there once but She just went after he daughter. Her daughter died of cancer and then a year later her Oh right. husband died of cancer and she just . Now even if I'm only weeks pregnant this'll show? Aye? If you're weeks pregnant, that would have shown. It would have shown? Aye. Oh aye. So I'm definitely not pregnant? Definitely not pregnant. My body's just dying. . You mean I'm not heading for the end of me. four weeks, would have shown up on that. Was it May you changed my pill wasn't it? Mhm. Aye I mean it might be that there could be something as simple as that that's Mhm. doing it. Could be something as simple as that. sixty two. Right. Now it was Marvelon and I put you on to No it wasn't Marvelon it was that Trin Trin Aye. Trinordiol. Mhm. Trinordiol. And now it's Norimin. So it could It might just be that that's causing the problem. But we'll get you checked out. Now see if we get whether I can get us fitted in. Mm right. Might manage it today. Mm. Margaret, they couldn't give me on just now. Mhm. Can we phone you this afternoon Aye. as long as we've got your phone number. Mhm. Should I take that with me? brought this back. You hold on to that. Right. Right. Er and we've got your new phone number. Aye. Got that. And we'll give you a phone as soon as they get back to us. And if they can do it this afternoon or tomorrow morning, Aye. we'll let you know right away. It shouldn't be too long? It should Oh no it shouldn't be Hopefully within . I know. Yeah. Right thanks. Right cheerio now. Michael Heseltine, the president of the board of trade, has found another industry in which to intervene. Next Wednesday, a score of television bigwigs will meet him at a special seminar at the Department of Trade and Industry, part of the D T I's efforts to boost British exports. British television is almost as widely admired abroad as it is at home. Its reputation rests on classy programmes often made as international co-productions like David Attenborough's blockbuster natural history series. Britain used to have a comfortable trade surplus in television programmes. Twenty four million pounds in nineteen eighty five. But by nineteen ninety one, that had turned in to a deficit of a hundred million and one prediction suggests the deficit would have widened dramatically to six hundred and forty million pounds by the end of the decade. Largely because of satellite television with its high number of feature films and U S and Australian programmes. But many British programmes, especially dramas, don't travel well in the opposite direction. British broadcasters fighting a ratings battle at home want shows guaranteed to appeal to British audiences. British producers have little choice but to go for the home market, because the lion share of their budgets comes from the B B C, I T V or Channel Four who commission the programmes in the first place. The bias erm of British producers towards producing for a British market is likely to persist erm historically it's been very difficult for all but er select minority to achieve significant sells sales overseas. Erm and again I I doubt doubt whether that will disappear over night. It's a cultural as much as a commercial problem. No amount of government intervention will change it. But Wednesday's meeting could suggest ways to stop things getting worse. The government might offer tax breaks to Britain's beleaguered film industry. Feature films do have export potential even if television programmes don't. And the I T V companies won't miss an opportunity to push for a relaxation of the rules which prevent one large I T V company merging with another. As it is, they say, British broadcasters are far too small to compete effectively in export markets or to resist overseas predators. And the takeover threat doesn't just come from foreign television companies, but from cable companies and even phone companies as well. Thanks to the much talked about convergence of broadcasting telecommunications and computing. American telecom's giants like Bell Atlantic are quite open about their global ambitions. We absolutely have plans. And we are absolutely having conversations with carriers throughout the world. Not just in England but throughout the world about taking the technology we're developing and the branded services and deploying them on their systems. And the whole business of convergence raises the intriguing question of who ought to regulate this burgeoning new industry. In Britain neither the independent television commission nor the telephone watchdog, OFTEL, seems entirely appropriate. A single body modelled on the U S federal communications commission would make more sense. And a British F C C would fit much more naturally into the Department of Trade's portfolio, than into that of the department of national heritage, which currently looks after broadcasting. Perhaps Mr Heseltine's sudden interest in television is motivated by more than a simple desire to boost British exports. Erm yeah. Well I Ooh. Yeah, that needs to be signed and then we can use these and any future occasions when we're all in the same place. Okay. At the same time. What a very left-handed Person. writing position you have. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. That's a v How can you be very left handed? Well no, no it was the writing position which is very typically left-handed, rather than you being very Ah. left-handed if you see what I mean. That that's the You curl round. Yes. Rather than turning the paper but curling your hand round. Erm it's a product of repressive seconda or er primary education isn't it. You will be right-handed. No I won't. You will be right-handed dammit and we won't let you turn your paper. Yes. I had a teacher for all of three months tried to make me write with my right hand. Didn't last. It happens. Erm Minutes of the last meeting. Yeah they're not really minutes, they're they're just what I could remember afterwards. I was going to make the minutes up from the tape you see. Oh yes. Ah. Of course. Er of course. Okay, well I think what we did was erm Right we talked about the list of exclusions, things that we can't record because Maureen's already done them. Mm. Yes. Erm now I was supposed to check and I'm afraid I haven't, whether we still need to get sermons from Scotland and Liverpool. Okay. Erm but I will check. I've got to talk to them tomorrow. Mm. Erm I've got a note, or I had a note to write to the admin at the university and I have done, erm saying that Derek's been approaching people, apologising for not writing beforehand and saying that Derek's been approaching people and if they've got a problem they should write back P D Q. Oh and by the way how about recording erm meetings of the administration erm Mm. . I haven't written to the head of the Linguistics Department. Erm but I don't think that's as important. But I will do it. But I might do it by talking to them rather than by writing to them. It's friendly. Erm Oh dear this is going to be a long list of things I was supposed to do but didn't. Don't worry. Erm we talked about David's attempt to get union meetings. Erm Mhm. Colin rang Colin rung back and said erm no way Jose. Oh. In regards to what? Erm to regard er Recording trade union union meetings. Ah. Er which is fair enough. Did he say why? Did he say why Yeah. when you talked to him? He said he said erm he thought people might be less willing to to speak at the meeting if they knew it was being recorded, which seems entirely reasonable . Yeah. Erm yeah I mean you know There's nothing we can really do to . No. Er whatever reasons people give we have to accept as reasonable reasons. Reasonable re Yeah. Whatever. Yeah. Erm I've also got a note here to write to Karen . Which I again haven't done. Right. Erm have you been doing anything else at work Erm about getting mock interviews or interviews or whatever? No I haven't. Erm . Right, okay. Well I'll maintain that as a note to er write to this person. Erm Clare suggested that Mike record that presentation he's doing. I asked him, he was negative, erm and I've I've got a feeling he never even turned up for it anyway. Erm He was quote ill unquote. It's next week it's It is? Friday next week. I'll badger him again. Mm. Erm I'll be talking to him tonight. You try him again. So I'll jump up and down on his metaphorical toes and see what happens. Erm I tried phoning James the the place where he's actually doing this training course. Mm. And the legendary E , who's the person I wrote to there, is erm stunningly hard to track down. Er really quite impressive actually. Erm they obviously have the right person teaching this management course if you know that's one of the prime functions of a manager is to be unavailable at all times. That's right. Erm so she is in fact unavailable at all times. So I'm going to keep trying on Monday. Mhm. Erm somebody, and I think it was Derek, and I put down Derek as a guess, was supposed to be getting a list of local area MPs to whom I can then write. Aha. I didn't. You didn't. I completely forgot about it. No problem. I shall write it down this time. Good-oh. Erm I was supposed to and again haven't asked Spike about finding out erm when and where by-elections are coming up. I don't think there are any coming up. They would be very big news at the moment given how small the government majority is. Yeah. Given the last two terms, the government had over a hundred majority, a by-election wasn't important. Mm. With a twenty-one majority it becomes important cos all it needs is eleven by-elections. Yeah. There are council elections in York coming up in May. Erm . Council elections are something that we need to look at in other areas. Mm. Erm but I'm not sure how we go about that. I shall enquire er if th there's Well I'll I guess I'll get in touch with erm the er town hall in York Mm. and ask about council elections. Er who who the candidates have to er make their candidacy known to, who's the returning officer and so Yeah. on and that way you can find out who the candidates are, and once we know who the candidates are we can start going out and seeing if they have public meetings or whatever. Yes. Yeah. Erm I think it would be useful to try and find similar local elections erm in other areas. Well obviously it'd be useful. But I don't know how we'd go about that other than just writing to town councils. Just writing general letters to to town councils. Well there's no reason not to do that since we'll also be wanting to see if we can tape council meetings. Mm. Mm. So it's a it's a double Yeah. use. Everywhere has a town council doesn't it? Yes. Everywhere that's got a postal address has a town council at that post town really doesn't it. I mean Yes. postal towns tend to be the place where the council is. Yeah. So if I just arbitrarily write to a selection in every one of the areas we're covering. . Yeah. Seems reasonable. Erm Okey-doke. Der-de-der-de-der, where are we? Erm David did you check with the town hall about No.. upcoming weddings? Right. . That's that's on the list. Somebody erm said they were going to, and it wasn't me so it was one of you three,said they were going to check if the ball was having a speaker this year. Erm and I definitely didn't say that. I don't know who Well it was men it was I I I I mentioned as a plan. I can check it then. Erm and also check whether any of the college dinners this term or year,next term whatever, are going to be having a speaker. Erm got a note here that you're you two aren't going away till May. I Uh-huh. presume that's still true. It is. This is still the case. Erm Well th it is the case that we're not going we're definitely not going away before May Yeah. and we have yet to be contacted erm despite th the fact that at the time we had our last meeting the thing was supposed to be in the post. What thing? What's happening? Er er th th this is this is supposed to be the er the next stage of the travel agents contacting us. Oh right. Mm. Erm and er I phoned them on Thursday before our last meeting and to be told Oh it's in the post, we're contacting you. Aha. And it hasn't turned up yet. This isn't that thing is it? . . , whatever. Oh, right. It's er th th I've been hearing people moaning about that while I was temping. There have not been good things. Yeah. Yeah. But Erm Right, okay. Erm I've got a note to contact people I know in Wales which again I haven't done but again I shall. Erm I now have a list of all our stock, which means I know where it all is and how much of it there is which is nice but not directly relevant to this meeting. Erm Oh has anybody got any receipts to give to me? Erm sort of for tapes or whatever? I've got one but it's not here so I Right. shall forward it to you . Okey-doke. No rush since I can't afford to pay . Er you sent a tape recorder to your dad. Er You're sending a tape recorder to your I'm sending a tape recorder to my dad. I I I was delayed a little in that. Basically I I've got a l a l a whole list of things that I didn't get done this week either. Right. Erm yeah if you need me to buy the postage direct then No. by all means package it up and I'll take away. No problem. No problem, Erm I can get it done. Yeah. It was just incompetence that I didn't get it done this week. Right. I'm very annoyed with myself that it's got round to Okey-doke. the end of the week and I was still thinking it's not done. Erm I have sent a t tape recorder to my father-in-common-law in Liverpool, and I need the address for him to send it on to. Right. I down there is a letter to my contact in Liverpool. Right. Erm that's as much of the address as I know. In that envelope is a letter explaining what I would like. Right. I'll phone my father-in-common-law and get him to look up the address the er postcode in his Yeah. Thompson's. Erm Erm Right. And er that is Shall I shall I look at this or or No no. No I can't because it's sealed. You're gonna just post that. Yeah. Erm It it generally explains to Clive what it is Yeah I would like him to do, and I've put information Okay. in there for him . Right, well I'll take that address down. Yeah. In a moment. Erm Dum-de-dum. Oh I dug out my, or the company's in fact, membership of P C W World, erm and tomorrow I've got a note to phone them and ask them how much their keyboards are for Amstrads. Yeah. Erm Mm. cos they er they're bound to be cheaper than they are in the shops. Okay. Can you also ask them what their servicing rate is for a a keyboard. Okey-doke. Right.. Mm. do that, I'll listen to this tape through tonight. Erm dum-dum-dum. That's just a note of what we just did. I also didn't ask erm about the status of Eire as a place for getting recordings from. Something else I'll do tomorrow. Erm when are you going to Boston Spa? Er it's going to be a week on Wednesday now I think. Wednesday week, right. I phoned and got the address and name, Ah. but I haven't written, erm cos I wanted to check exactly what day you'd be going before I did. That's it really. Erm Mm. they're fairly sketchy notes but never mind. This time, I'll try and make up minutes and get them out, cos it helps I think. Erm Right, well, that's basically my input except erm Wednesday daytime, what are you doing? Er I don't have to be doing anything other than er working for . Right, okay. Erm ,. Erm explanation. . Erm a company called . Yes. How's that spelt? Erm I've already contacted them. They've said I can record a s an upcoming seminar that's on Wednesday. Right. Erm but if it's during the day I'm not going to be able to get there. Unfortunately nowhere in any of their literature does it actually say what time of day the seminar is. Okay. Erm it's in Leeds erm and they know that I'm going but I may need to call them and say that I'm sending somebody else because I can't possibly go anywhere during the day on Wednesday. O Cos I've let myself in for a day of temping. I can go, no problem. Right. Well I'll tomorrow morning phone them up find out exactly what time, and register you rather than me if it's you know if I can't get to it. Okay. Erm And the call you P D Q. Okay, we need erm I need an address and er it would be nice to know what the seminar's about. It's about some kind of database structure thing. It's a selling thing. Erm it's actually being done by a company called er for or with and I gather they're trying to sell a database package. Right. Erm The address and everything else they're supposed to be sending. I hope they do because otherwise no none of us is going to be able to get there. Erm it's at some venue in Leeds. They're actually based in London. Right. Erm but I'm gonna talk to them tomorrow and sort of finalize the arrangements for that. Mhm. If it's in the evening I can go. If it's in the daytime I'm going to have to send you. . Should be about three hours of recording to be got from them. Okay. Erm which would be very nice indeed. Erm it's something we haven't got any kind of you know we haven't got represented yet. Okay. Erm does anybody have on any of their various computers a large map of England? No. No but I've got an atlas. Well I I want to have a big picture of England on the wall on which I can start to tick off bits as we get them. Would a black and white photocopy of a map I haven't the remotest idea cos I don't know how it would come out. I imagine it come out quite well. Yeah. Depends which map it is. Oh my goodness. A man of many maps yeah. . useful having them around. Unfortunately I usually use road atlases for maps of Britain. Now that's a British map but it's in two bits. Maps of France, the States. other places. It's not really desperately important cos I can do it by using a list rather than a map but it's just somehow easier to refer to Britain. A map on the wall. That's going to be too complicated to photocopy really. I just want erm you know an outline. Never mind, it's not a problem. There's an outline in the stuff they sent you. Yeah couldn't you blow that up. Yes I probably could it's rather scratchy. The S U has a That's our best other one. poster machine. Right. If you actually want to use this. Er actually it's too mm. It's it's too fiddly to, you know I'd be wanting to write on it so. Well Erm Okay er bit too fiddly. I'll see if I've got a map around or can get a really cheap map and just put it up. I'm probably best doing a blow up of the map they sent. Yes Doesn't have major towns. That's it, I'll get a get a cheap tourist map of Britain, Mm. and get the S U poster machine. Mm. It's only, about a pound fifty isn't it. It really wants to be one without the roads marked. Mm. This is the this thing Well. I just want one with erm spot for towns. Areas And s so I can draw on the areas We well we we can doc we can doctor the poster, I can get the poster in here, overlay those and and get the towns marked on that you want. Erm I have a map stencil True. It's got the major cities on it. How big's that. Well it's not very big but you could blow it up But it could be made into a poster. True fact. Put whatever on it that you want. Well it's not an immediate problem, it just occurred to it'd be nice to have you know I've I'm writing a list of the recordings as they come in and where they've come from. Right. But it'd be nice to have some sort of pictorial representation of It'd just be easier to see which areas we've got to cover. Erm Okey-doke. How's your week gone, tell me all about it. were incompetent, erm the people who were supposed to bring up the recording thing at the station meeting didn't. Right. And I only found this out when I went in and talked to the station manager, and he looked very confused. Uh huh. Even more so than he had done the previous time, I said didn't you hear this about this at the station meeting and he said it hadn't been brought up. Huh. So I explained to him and he was very nice, er but one of the things that they'd said that they would do, is get all the news broadcasters er to sign consent forms Uh hm when they did their broadcasts. And they didn't. Right. So I've got to chase all of them up and most of them are going to have gone home for Easter. Yeah. However, er I can I have all their names, I know how to contact them. Yeah. And I can get round to doing that this week, I started trying on Friday but most of them were of course hitting the road. Yeah. Erm so I'm making some progress there. Also he recommended somebody else's programs cos there's somebody who comes in and and does their their talking about political things Uh huh. for a couple of hours each week. Right. Erm and another idea that I had, the conference office, there I was getting a little down about al all the students knock at the door, excuse me. Erm to continue with this train of thought. Yes, the conference office. Erm we realized that with the students going for Easter there would be a lack of seminars Yeah. and general meetings and speeches on campus, but remembered of course it's conference season. Yes. So with it being conference time, we can get lots of companies who are turning up and giving conference presentations, lots of academic types. Er there will be educational and business seminars of various sorts going on. Mm. And I can approach the conference office to find out what's here, and I can then go after each of the different categories we're looking for, or each of the conferences. Mm. Go after all the various speakers. Yeah. Because they are going to be from all over the country. How many conferences are there generally? Er during Easter there are probably about five big ones on. Right. Th they aim at one big conference per week or slightly more. Right. Mm. And So just go for each one then, Yes. Yeah. if there's you know the volume's that small. The other thing er is that all those conference's are going to be packed full of business men. Yes that's true. From various parts of the country. Exactly. Yes. Er, and that was my brainwave of the week, basically. Yes that's a very very good idea. So I'm I'm not only going to be asking the conference office about what's there, but I'm going to be going and asking individuals even if we can't record your keynote speech here, will you be able to record us interviews, will you be able to record us whatever else. Yes. Yes that would be very good. Erm would it be an idea perhaps to put something up on notice boards that the conference people are going to see. Mm. Mm Yes. You know a sort of a er a fairly low content, high impact thing. You know one Just to put it in mind. one side on the 's headed paper. Are there conference notice boards? There generally are Yes. yes. Yeah. Right. I have to track them down cos they put them in obscure places sometimes, but there are conference notice boards. Yes. The one is in the corridor that goes from the porter's lodge to the stairs up to. Yes. Mhm. Yes I know that one. And there's the one is out just diagonally out from the porter's lodge. Right. Yes so I'll put together erm a erm something on notepaper, that we can put up on Yeah. the conference notice boards. If I can find whoever the senior organizer is for each conference, or whoever is doing the introductory talk, Yeah. and nobble them at the start of the conference. Mm. Then they can if they add a two minute spiel on the end of their introductory keynote thing, saying we have somebody here doing linguistics research, if any of your companies can help them. Mm. Mm. Then we'll be able to get people that way. Yeah, save us an awful lot of letter writing. Mm. Which would be excellent. Erm I went, I was telling David about this in the car, I went down to Nottingham to and recorded, I've got an hour of recording from erm an organisation meeting Mm. in Nottingham. Erm at which meeting I also contacted or attacked four other people, one a solicitor, erm one running a sort of a a training centre, and two running businesses, one in sort of sales and marketing, and one in production . All of whom have taken away bumf and seem interested, and in about a week I'm going to follow it up by writing to them. Right. Erm. That I mean if they all came up trumps that's Nottinghamshire covered basically. Right. Erm which is excellent. Erm and at the very worst I've got you know an hour of recording from their meeting, and their going to let me record the next meeting they have as well. Er which'll have difference different er attendees. If we positive results from the conferences at Easter, erm during the summer there are a lot of conferences of various sizes, and a lot of professional conferences. Yeah. Yeah. Mhm. Which opens up other areas cover. Oh the charity always have their conference in York. Er. The General Synod. The General Synod. I'm not I'm not certain that the charity are having one here this year. Really. The Synod I heard The Synod has been here about three years running hasn't it. Yeah, oh long before that. I heard mention that there isn't a charity conference this year. Er not that it won't be in York but that . Mm. I could get the conference timetable for which conferences are booked for the summer at the moment. Yes. It might not be complete but it'll certainly give us some of them. It'll give us some clues. Because writing ahead to any pe any to the organisers would possibly be a useful thing to do, give them a lot of warning. Oh yeah. Right. That's something the Yeah. conference office about. Yeah. Erm how have things been going with getting lectures? Er most of Term's over . Yeah that's the thing. Yeah. Cos I I got the two science lectures and thought I'll try and get a couple of arts lectures, Mm. a couple of social science lectures. All the arts and social sciences people had stopped lecturing. Yeah. Oh no we don't do any lecturing week nine, or week eight. We only do one every week seven and one every week five you know. That's right. So So we've got about a five week break now, before we pick up again. I have have got Dave all sorted out. Right. He I'm suppo he says to email him, contact him at the start of week zero, because he's goin he he's trying to remember of his own accord, but er ju this is just to give him a kick along in case he's forgotten uh hm. or hasn't got it organised. He's going to record seminars that he is doing, and also seminars other people are doing in the department. Right. Erm and that's the stuff we'll be getting Right. Good. We should be able to get er at least three hours seminars out of there. That that's about the right amount. Oh We could we could get lots more Yeah. but I you said three hours or so. We yeah we don't want to push any one area, er really too much. No. I mean we can always go back to places like the linguistics department or or any department on on campus, We can always go back to and get more recordings later. Which is probably better than getting them all at the same time. Mm. Erm. Remember each person in our catchment area should be on tape for one tenth of a second. That's right. Erm the law college have expressed an interest, and I'm temping for them this week so I'll chase them. Right. Can the law college also give you any useful contacts about solicitors. I asked and they were non-committal, but erm I'll do some chasing. They're very very friendly and open people. Erm in fact incredibly so erm Very nice place to work actually erm so I'll do a bit of friendly chasing. I'm that's why I can't go out during the day on Wednesday Yeah. cos I'm temping there. It just occurred to me that Tuesday would be another opportunity to talk to Julian , the guy who comes in and does the S U legal aid stuff. Yes. Yes that would be a very . Erm what's the other thing, Yeah the place that I've just picked up erm a part time job, has said I can record as much as I want there. They often have people in doing talks, so later on this or early next month I'll be able to get a couple of hours talks. Erm shit that reminds me I've got to write a letter. To somebody at the Company who's coming to do a talk there. Ooh. Erm so that's not immediately but, in the first two or three weeks of next month going to turn into several hours of recording. Yeah. Erm and my mother's going to record her theory lessons. In Nottingham. Err I think by the way I've pretty much got all the the areas wrapped up in Scotland if we can just get going and we can get Right. There may be problems on amount of material from certain things. But I I've got contacts which can get us academic recordings, Yeah. I've contacts who can do business stuff, consultations, after dinner speeches if we're lucky, Right. club meetings no problem, lots of things. Great. I've written to Sue's school, Sue's erm Sue 's school where she's currently doing her teacher training, Yes er Erm and she's going to mention it to her headmaster as well. Hopefully they'll let us record lessons. It occurred Annual staff meetings there, and Scarborough college I've written to and they they're sounding positive. Erm I've got a friend doing teacher training there. be good. I approached company and erm am waiting to hear their reply. Right. Erm which I will chase up tomorrow morning Uh hm. and see if can get hold of a meeting there. I'm fairly positive about it, but . good. I gather you're self-employed or going to become so. No. No that's not happening. going to work. Oh God, that's a pain. It is, it's a bit of a pain. Derek was all sort of ah about it.. It would be lovely if it would happen, Yeah. but the time scale's the problem. Right. Because they say it it would be about two months . So I I'm not holding out a lot of hope for it. Yeah. at the moment. Mind you I mean even four months, cos you'd be getting more money. That's right That's worth doing. Yes yeah. I I would do it if I'm offered the opportunity. Yes. It's whether the opportunity arises. Yeah. The other thing I have done is setting down there is various amounts of stuff to go off to my father Right. To have sales demonstrations, presentations uh huh. recorded in Glasgow. And erm I'm waiting to contact a friend of mine who works in the library in Manchester. Right. He'll have library and library meetings Yes very good. recorded in Manchester. And I have also remembered that I know a deputy headmaster in a school in Wales. Excellent. Who I can hopefully Yeah. get recordings of Welsh school meetings and classroom interaction Right. from. That will be very good. I've just remembered,somethi something's just clicked in my mind, I rang my mother today and she was busy cos she was taking a confirmation class. She's a catechist at church. Oh yes. The catholic church, it just never occurred to me before. Religious meetings. Every Sunday, every Sunday until Easter. Super. Erm get on the phone. Dude. I'm about to get on the phone as well Right. to see if Whit's doing one of his tours of the place tomorrow and what time. Right Because if he is that we can get that as an educational presentation. Yes er yeah or a or a dis or whatever. We a we already asked him about that actually . We we've already asked him he said yes. He said yes he's do it but when. Yeah. He said he he'd do it. That's what I he did agree to it when I I mentioned it to him but I just ha I want to check if he's doing one tomorrow, cos if he's doing one tomorrow it might be tomorrow morning so I'll have to Yes. catch him at the right time. Okay. I'll phone him now. Okey-doke. Okay. Erm. I've still drawn a blank as far as recording is concerned but I will be to my father. I've asked for about three hours my contact in Liverpool. Right. And mostly Yeah. And erm numerous . Erm I'm still suffering a little at the moment from a shortage of tape recorders, so if any more are available Right I have I can put them to use. One more now, as long as they do go out because erm Oh I've got one that will be coming back from the careers service soon, erm he's supposed to be ringing tomorrow morning. Right. Erm he's had it for about a week and a half now. Mm. And he should have gotten three or four hours of interviews and meeting. Mm. I'm aiming towards sending off a return on Monday week. With as much transcribed volume in it as possible. Right. I don't want to send any this is sort of from erm almost from my ego talking now, I don't want to send anything until I've had back from company Group their comments on my Yes. initial transcriptions. Cos I just don't want to send stuff back, knowing that there are things wrong Mm. with the way I view the transcription system at the moment. But if we haven't heard anything back by Monday week I'm going to send whatever we've got. Okay. Erm which won't be a vast amount, you know, I was expecting a slow start and we've had a fairly slow start, but you know I'm not worried by that at all. Erm but yeah Monday week is sort of the deadline for getting returned . Okay. And I should have I hope three or four, maybe five tapes to send off then, which would be very very indeed. Erm Whit's out, he's phoning me when he gets back. Right okay. If company come through, this week then it could be considerably more, cos I can get interviews, sales demonstrations and . Great. Yeah. I think we I'm assuming that as long as we don't get more than say three hours of one type of recording from each place, we can get as much, apart from that constraint Mm. can get as much as we like from each place. That So three hours or so of lecture, three hours or so of seminar and . Well that means each company we can take for twelve hours because there are basically four business related classes. Yeah. Er assuming we don't Most companies don't have all of them. Erm Company talks, business meetings, Very Sales demonstrations and interviews. Yeah. Very few companies have talks to the company. Er or done by the company, erm sales demos again we're limited. Meetings, all companies have them in some way one human being companies. Erm what was the other one? Interviews. Interviews. Most companies erm. Although not necessarily in the current economic climate. Yes. Although the news on that looks like it could be improving too. Yes. Oh I'll believe that when I see it. The the other advantages I can think of at the moment for erm getting company to say yes it the obvious connections to company . Yes. And the fact that the person whom I appro I have approached about the project is erm does travel have meetings so which we can record. Yeah. Right. Anything else? Any other sort of reporty type things? or plan type things? No I think I was restricted to the one brainwave this week. That's okay one a week is fine. Erm I wanted to ask erm I ga I assume that everyone has read through the bumf that I've been merrily distributing. Yeah. Yes. Erm how d how do you think that bumf comes across. Erm I've had one comment from the people in Nottingham, that er we need to have a clearer idea of exactly what we want from people, and then let them go away and and read more detailed bumf in more detail. I thought I had that in my introductory letter, the one that says we're a small company making recordings, we're currently collecting recordings of erm sort of English as used in everyday situations and we would like to record on your premises if we may. I thought that covered it but, it may not do. A lot of people I've spoken to have said well what sort of things do you want? Yeah. It it's all What do you mean, the English language? Hm. Oh dear . Yes the first questions er. something in German It is a fairly academic phrase really. Mm. Well how about we prepare something, the sort of thing that I can photocopy ad nauseam and give round er conference guests who turn up, for example, which says you know something like, please help, we are doing linguistic research, we want to make recordings, Mm. if you are involved in any of the following, list all your situations, Mm. er and would be willing to have those recorded for research purposes, erm Yeah. please The trouble with a list is that it it erm limits people. People assume that if if something's not on the list then it's not important or not necessary. Mm. Erm I'd prefer to give a definition, rather than a list, so something like any situation where you find yourself talking to people. You know I mean that's basically what we want it's any situation where people talk to each other, with some kind of agenda in mind. Yeah, yeah. Yes. Erm okay, Mm. but if you can think of some way to say that and put it down so that we put down something like four sentences on paper and a few examples. What does the erm where's it gone, the er doohickey, erm help! The consent form? Yes. I've got it here haven't I. Right. There we go what does this actually say? Erm We're asking a large cross section of people and organisations around the country to help by allowing us to record their conversations, meetings broadcasts and so on, both in private homes and on company premises. Erm Okay in that case what I mean that's poss that's already too detailed Mm. really isn't it. Well first of all w we've got t if you take out er a large cross section, if you just say, we're asking people and organisations around the country to help us by allowing us to record meetings, broadcasts, er Allowing us to record any situation interviews and so on, and then bracket you know any situation where people meet er and Other way round, any situation where people talk to each other, for instance Er I think. I'd I'd rather put the definition first, and have it develop Yeah. Okay. Yeah. and then bracket a list. If anyone comes up with extra ideas, that we or haven't covered, Yes. then they won't feel Yeah. And er if you are interested in helping us, please er contact this Please! please contact us at this number, this address, erm or attract the attention of the person who has just given you this flyer. Right. I think a very erm and sort of thought provoking, eye-catching statement would be very useful Yeah. Because even if you you have sat down and spoken to somebody about the project for five minutes, and given them all the other information, Mhm. If they've got that piece of paper on top of, they remember what it was all about. Yes. And I think . Yeah. Yeah. Okay. couple of sentences is, help we w we want help recording these things, can you help us? Right okay well I'll I'll put something together. Mm. Erm yeah. Cos if I've got that to throw around conference guests I think I'll get a massive uptake. Mm. What for? Yeah. You know, this er seven pound We got off. No it's at the side of it. Well we'll take it out of my salary. Yeah. No. So, are you gonna If there's any tools wise er erm No! No! we'll use your side if you don't mind er whether it's electrical or not. Er Right , fair enough then. Er But one thing I must stipulate Nuts and , nuts and bolts and stuff like we'll deal with the other side. But Yeah. we'll deal with you for tool side then we'll be lot happier. We have a a weird system how it works, and I've got my hands tied behind my back erm if you're on with fasteners you can't use Power Tools. No. Until I break free, and go into my unit. Yeah. Alright. So but there again if I get the enquiries fas I mean, that obviously is the enquiry came through to me so obviously I quoted on it but Yeah. anything like nuts and bolts, fixings, fasteners, that type of thing go, has to go through the They only stop them cos I hang on to choice int draw. Well it's The thing is, because of the profit margin, I mean If there's a Cumbrian Fasteners one in there give it, take it back! Because of the profit we're we're making on the hand tools, things like that er, works with our account money, cos you get a thirty day account. So, if you go on thirty days unfortunately we we'll enforce that. Yeah. Nothing personal Tha that's erm yeah this is Well they haven't done it, that with us, we've been on the thirty days and just no Well our fasteners in they might allow you to go to forty five days Well what she normally does Could of given you I've said to her, it's Mm. it's, it's normally me who forgets to put Oh yeah! the bloody cheque in post! Yeah. Yeah. And if she gets er over that date could she give us a ring. That's right. And she does. It's fascinating her. Just gives us a ring and say, have you got your cheque? And I said, yeah, and I drop it into her now. It's normally me that forgets to er What, what I try to do I just hang on to them till somebody shouts. Well tha that's what a lot of people do. You've got to. Because erm You've got to wait for your money haven't you? well we're finding that out. When we first started I used to pay them straight away but the big companies aren't paying us! No. We found the same. And er it's just chronic! So, hopefully they're gonna stop that. Well I shall have a good look at that when I Yeah! get er have a look. some er Thank you very much for the order. I shall take my little black bag and be gone. I hope your mouth's better soon. So do I! Looks really painful! Well we can get rid of your mouth for you! Lovely! Mm. Just give you one quick smack and that'll be through to the other side! He's horrible! Well that's damn nice innit? It's not very nice though! Int he nice to you Brett? He's not a very nice man! How long have you known him Brett? Er, I'll go and get Too long! another bottle of er antise am Ambesol or imbecile whatever they call it! and he's never had a better job than what he had at Widnes, I'll tell you! Yeah, a mere pittance of pay! Twenty two pound for a forty seven hour week! Oh! You go that one there. Forty five quid, she's, she's gonna be only doing sixty, seventy hours a week! Forty five quid. Where's that, why's it ? No! She's at No! the horses at erm Edminton. Edminton's place. Oh yeah. And they're paying her forty five a week, she does about forty nine hours now and they've Eh! just told her she's to er, she's got to stop on another hour at night, till five o'clock instead of four. And in summer it'll be half past seven or seven o'clock when she finishes! Shee! I just said to her , you know, just tell them Not worth getting out of bed! you know, just ask them if there's any more money in it if she works the long hours. The trouble is Well if I go on the premises,work with me and he's trained like you had one for Steven . Well we've got one here. Yeah. Yeah. And, I've just as a basic figure, I mean, they give up to a certain figure o before their hours you put a bit of tax and after that, but er we've allocated him to work, in the afternoons when I'm out, they allocate to her, the warehouse , because I can't afford any, er, as I say, they repairs a machine, it goes out faulty, and the onus is on me and the company Yeah. and he ha he hasn't been trained up fully yet so he, you know but plus, the course he's on at er college isn't doing him any good. That's what happened to our drill you see, you've had apprentice on it! You're right. I've, I failed miserably so I thought, I've had to put the apprentice on it you see! No, it er Things can only get worse then. Probably. I gi him general things on their own, I mean, it's, it's really quiet. I mean I as a company Cumbria Power Tools will always, you know, it will survive because there's only me and this Oh yeah! this there. But er it, it didn't take a lot to keep me busy. But fasteners, I mean, you know I mean, things are You're not having this. are struggling, we've had a couple of But you must have your regular customer? Cos we're er Oh we do! we're your regulars. Then you've They bought gotta do they since you left Widnes. This is it! On the fasteners side, they know they're not the cheapest Coming off. a lot of people Cumbria Fasteners isn't there? Right? They know what they can source elsewhere but Yeah, but I mean they don't if, if No I haven't. people wanna get them there The only trouble that a lot of people, I think Cumbria Fasteners, in one respect Shall I do it now? Yeah. would get, if they got their act together And see what's happening. they would have a lot more customers whatever the price. Cos you want to get cracking don't you? Yeah. The they lose a lot of customers er to, to other people that sometimes charge them more. And we get pissed off with Cumbria Yeah. when you Yeah. go and se stand in there for half an hour! And there's one man I know! One. who hasn't got a clue of the order! Well, if you want anything phone up the order before and, and as soon as that enquiry's taken it's picked from the shelf Oh no! Hang on! and it's put on the shelf with your order form. Yeah, go on then. Well we've, we've done that before haven't we? We've rung The last time and said look and we still have to wait half an hour! Well, don't say that I've,seen you just ask, ask for Brett, just say you want an enquiry about parts or . No? That's what it says. Even though you might think it's Okay. It's three two. they, they don't know just walk around in the warehouse, they are Yeah. doing things, you know, at er they're not standing about there. Yeah well you you know I've been in there on a Saturday morning when there's been six of us there and one bloke serving, you know, I mean Yeah. You know,i there's two screens testing all the stuff. Well this is it, yeah. You know, if it, if it, if it were Ow! Teresa! Yeah. Be careful! Be careful! Right then, I'll . The standard of is surprising! Bump heads. He's only just Well for some reason they survived when it was expanded. Yeah. They got three depots, one at Carlisle La la la la la la ! Yeah. you go in there and wait twenty minutes. Yeah. But, you know, there's eight or nine of them, you know. Hello. Er, is Mike in please? wait Yeah. twenty minutes, half an hour . Mike, it's Annette. I'll see you later Neil. See you! Fine. How are you? See See you! you later Brett. Good! I'm sorry to bother you, have you heard anything back from Yeah. Wow! Yeah. Ow! Ee! Big smacker in the Yeah. We've actually, we, we've had a letter from them and they're not, they want to knock two thousand one hundred Blah la la la! Yeah. So erm the point is, they have suggested a meeting down there . Will you shut up you lot! They've suggested a meeting down there but, my point i I feel that there's no point going down for an argument cos that's all it's going to be. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, well we're gonna have to, I mean, if they don't do it we're gonna have to go to a solicitor No you're not! ourselves and do it anyway. So right. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay then. So, you'll let us know as soon as you hear? That's great Mike! Rebecca where's your nose? Alright. Thanks very much love. Okay. Bye ! He should know something by close of play today. He said he's ho he, he's pretty confident they'll take it. So he, he agreed there's no Yes! point going down for an argument. Cos that's all it will be. What? Nose. Nose. Right Teresa, it's ten to one love. Yeah I know. Better take you back. Peter! Erm sugar. Sugar, sugar. Are we gonna be able to White sugar. get back with sugar or can you nip up to shop and get some sugar? Er I'll nip up the road here. Yeah. Well it's probably gonna be easier asking you to nip up to shop than it is for me trying to get back. Cos we'll you'll get very busy. Will you? Look! Over here.. No! You're not! How you going to have it out? I dunno. I'll think of something . I'll try and come back up Richard and wash pots later. Ooh curly!look at that funny face! See you later. See you in a bit. Look! Cheeky face! I know. See you later. Okay love. Okay. Erm where you going now? Well I've got to, I'm gonna go drop I need Teresa off I need my camera and my film. Oh! Your camera, okay then. Can you, can you do that for me? Then I'll Yes. Erm I've got this lady coming at two. So I'll come back up after I've seen her. Yeah. It's just that he's coming for it at three so if I get my camera I want it before three. Oh right! Okay then. So are you working till just four tonight Teresa? I'll pick you up at four. Mm mm. Right. See you later. See you in a bit! Yeah. So I've to come back up with, don't let me forget Bye bye! your dad's camera. Bye bye! Say bye bye! Bye! Has it got a film in it? He sa he said something about there being a film there. Do you want to climb in and I'll fasten Becky in? later on tonight and find out if we, about the times . Yeah. Whoops! Becky boo! I need to get in! Oh! Sorry!, they are, they keep you warm. We're coming! We're coming! Oh! Don't you growl at me! You growl at me! Oh shit! The key off dad's desk. Alright, I'll go and get it. A blur of lights as a quick thinking cameraman locks on to the first Patriot missile fired in war. The patriot had already locked itself on to an Iraqi scud aimed at a Saudi airbase. The scud never made it. An American air crew saw it happen as they prepared to take off. I say the erm missile go up, snake up, and then explode and hit the other missile, and I kind of had a good idea right away that, you know, it was a patriot launch, because it was erm very impressive, and erm my confidence in the patriot is extremely high. Even so, raids that hunt down and destroy scud missiles sites were stepped up today. At least eight Iraqi mobile launchers were wiped out, although the allies admit it's hard to track them all. The weather didn't help either, high clouds over enemy territory obscured some targets. Several air missions returning with their bombs still in place, much to the frustration of the pilots. Because it is ground offensive in sand, you want to be able to see that if you're being shot, we couldn't we couldn't do that, and it became questionable whether we were actually going to be able to see the ground or not, so we called it aboard . As waves of combat mission flew out by night and day, the commander of this R A F tornado squadron warned that despite early successes, the task was never going to be easy. There was a deal of euphoria after the first night, the success of the missions, a certain element of surprise, but I did say at that time that we'd be foolish to lower our guard, because erm there was still a lot of work to do, and that is exactly what it's turning out to be, and we're going for his military installations, and he's got a lot of them, and it's a wearing down process. The tornados highly effective runway-busting bombs carry a personal message to Saddam Hussein from the R A F. To keep the planes aloft, the ground crews work round the clock. They are all pumped up at the moment. There's a lot of adrenalin flowing, and erm they realise that there are pink bodies on the line, and they take a great deal of care in preparing the outfit before they go. Tragically, not all their aircrews have come home. Two R A F tornados have already been lost. We were pretty hacked off, but we've got to move on, we've got a job to do. Quickly put it out of your minds and carry on with the task in hand. For the ground crews there is barely time to think as they bomb up the tornados for yet another sortie. Out in the gulf a tommahawk missile drills up into the ink-black sky fired from the U S battle ship Wisconsin. Deep down in a blue half light of the control room, American sailors huddle over their radar screens, plotting its progress towards Iraq. The screen show the scale of the Gulf battle fleet, ringed on the right, H M S Gloucester, part of the Royal Navy contingent. Another launch pod is raised for action. The crews missile arm is dispatched. Eight, seven, six, five, four, three, two, one, one. It's all away. Yes sir. Over a hundred tommahawks have been fired from warships, pre-programmed with detailed pictures of their targets. This multi-national airforce is now running two thousand missions a day. Among the crews, Royal Saudi pilots determined to protect their country, as another night began with warnings of possible Iraqi air attacks. The Royal prince at the controls the machine. Noone knows just how much damage has been inflicted on the Iraqi airforce. In an effort to ensure there will be no counterstrike the Royal Saudi pilots forsook the Muslim holy day today to fly their missions, a reminder that religious and political loyalties could be severely tested if Israel was to join the allied force. Jeremy Thompson, News at Ten, in Eastern Saudi Arabia. The German chancellor beset with the economic burdens of absorbing the old East Germany is delighted to have found an ally, John Major. Both believe it would be a good idea to slow the momentum towards economic and political union in Europe. But both men are saying that quietly, while trumpeting their credentials as good Europeans, almost a mirror-image of Mrs Thatcher's approach to Europe. With the Gulf War over, the German leader's anxious to dispel doubts that his country can be counted on in a crisis, and there are moves underway to change the German constitution, at least to allow German soldiers to join United Nations military peace-keeping operations. The world has no reason to doubt that this entente is based on a genuine personal chemistry, significant differences remain, on areas as critical as the role of a European central bank. However, none of that is in evidence today, as the two leaders addressing each other as John and Helmut, and payed homage to the European ideal. I am sure myself that Europe is stronger when Britain, France and Germany are working together, and Britain is paying a full part at the very centre of the European community. As for Mrs Thatcher's weekend warning about a federal Europe dominated by Germany Well, we were discussing my comments today on the on the erm relationship between the two countries, and I think you have just heard what they were. In his speech at the headquarters of the German conservative party, he developed that theme: co-operation in Europe, not confrontation. My aims for Britain in the community can be simply stated. I want us to be where we belong, at the very heart of Europe. But he made it clear Britain would fight its corner. Britain will relish the debate and the argument. That is the essence of doing business in today's community, and we want to arrive at solutions which will enable us to move forward more united and not less. That is why we think it better the change in the community should be of an evolutionary rather than of a revolutionary kind. Gone is the strong language of Mrs Thatcher's eighty-eight speech in Bruges, when she berated European rhetoric which didn't address the practical problems of European unity. We have not successfully rolled back the frontiers of the state in Britain, only to see them reimposed at a European level, with a European superstate exercising a new dominance from Brussels. Now, Mr Major wants his Bonn speech to set the tone of future relations with Europe. While that won't please some of his backbenchers, others will breath a sigh of relief that at least Britain will no longer seem to be standing alone against the rest of the community. Mark Webster, News at Ten, Bonn. Helicopters in heavily armed formation brought the allied commanders to their meeting with Iraqi generals, the rendezvous, an Iraqi airbase occupied by coalition forces. Desert Storm commander, General Norman Schwarzkopf described it as an historic day: a day to make it clear who was in charge. I'm not here to give them anything, I'm here to tell them exactly what we expect them to do. The Iraqi military leaders were arriving out of sight of cameras, under allied escort, and stripped of their weapons. Now I don't want to embarrass them in any way. No sir. There I don't want them to know anything . The rival generals faced each other across a wooden table in a green desert tent, General Schwarzkopf sitting with Saudi commander general, Prince Karla pin Sultan. Among the allied delegation, British commander, General de la Billiere. Opposite, grim faced, the Iraqi chief of operations, and the commander of Iraq's third army core, generals who'd seen forty-one of their divisions destroyed or captured. There were no smiles, no ritual handshakes. They left after less than two hours of talks to report back to Saddam Hussein on the face of it having agreed to all allied demands. The most important point that we discussed was the immediate release of all prisoners of war. The details of this release must be worked out by the international Red Cross. We have also made it very clear that upon the signing of a cease fire, but not before, all coalition forces will be drawn back from Iraqi territory that we currently occupy. Allied commanders seemed delighted at the outcome. They said the Iraqi leaders had already given details of P O Ws. They gave us a consolidated figure of various numbers of P W's that are held, and of the numbers of erm dead that are held. And I don't want to give those figures at the present time. But do you accept Hello. Hello Mrs what can I do for you today? It's my stomach again, I feel if I could just get it so. took out. See the towels she gave me the last time. There, they were brilliant and I felt as though they were just starting to work when finished. Oh right, right. If I could have, I'd be able to get a wee bit, aye, cos I even done a toilet with them, Right. cos I feel Yeah. as though I've had too much water. I don't same as I did with them. No pain passing your water then Jane ? No, it's not sore it's just my stomach all seems to Mm. Mhm . Across your stomach swelling out, right. That's fine. Do you still have the burning, this Mhm. Ah these are the first ones I've . Yes,right,as long as they're working, it's half the battle. Mhm. box. There you are, Jane. That'll keep you away for a wee while again. Thanking you. Go away and look after yourself. It was, I'd only just . No that's good, Mm. that's good. Well be good Mm. to yourself. I'll try my best. Right, Jane Right. Cheerio. Cheerio now. Well my name's Thomas Nelson . I am seventy one years of age. I was born on Christmas Day nineteen twelve. Unfortunately my father was killed in the first war, nineteen seventeen January, and my mother was left with four children to bring up. My mother worked all her life and she retired at eighty three which is not bad going. Pretty good. As a family we couldn't get away from school quick enough to try and earn a bob or two for to help my mother. I left school at fifteen years of age. Which schools did you go to? I went to school then Secondary School. I started work with a fishmonger or a hawker rather r round the streets and when a woman cried over the window for fish I ran up the stairs and delivered it. From there. How much did you get paid for that? Oh eleven shillings I think it was eleven shillings a week. And what kind of hours? And it was oh nine o'clock to two o'clock. Er and I had three shillings change. Two a half crown and a sixpence and a threepenny and three pennies and sometimes he forgot to take it back but however I didn't remind him. After that I started in Bakery as an apprentice baker. And I worked there until oh nineteen forty nine or nineteen fifty. When was it you started there? Oh that would be what er that'd be about ? Nineteen twenty nine? Aye more or less that that's right. And it was a five year apprenticeship was it ? Five year apprenticeship yes and er it was more or less labourer work you were just a boy and run and did messages and carried whatever the journeymen bakers wanted. Er you didn't really start thinking seriously about being a baker until about your last year of your apprenticeship. And of course made it part of the job that you had to attend night school classes for bread baking and confectionery. Where did you go for that? Went to a night school in Fountain Bridge. And if you had a complete attendance you got your er you got your fee back again from the from . But you had to pay it initially? paid but if you had a complete attendance they gave you the money back for your self which was quite er a good thing in these days when a a tanner was a tanner. I served er my apprenticeship as I said in . I was married in nineteen thirty seven prior to the war breaking out in nineteen thirty nine. I became very interested in the trade union movement and my first appointment was as a collector in collecting the union dues and taking them up to the union office. And the scope of that work I had enrolled all the the lady workers both on the confectionery side and the dispatch side and that made it what you would term as a closed shop. Did you take er members complaints and things when you collected the dues or they had anything to pass on ? Yes yes if members had any complaints about their work I would report it up at the head office and up up at the the branch office in Park. And er take their sick lines up and bring back their sick money and such things as that. Er I even visit a number of homes and delivered their sick money. This was all part of the the set up. And I carried on doing that for quite a number of years and I managed to be voted onto the Edinburgh committee. And I progressed from there to vice chairman chairman and local organizer full time local organizer. That was in nineteen fifty four. My job as local organizer was going the bakeries collecting the dues where there was no collector and dealing with complaints. In nineteen sixty six I stood for election of the national organizer and was successful and joined the head office in Glasgow in May nineteen sixty six. The area I covered as a national organizer was from Berwick to Stirling and everything in between. Now as a national organizer all the branches in your area if they had any complaints or anything that they wanted attending to used to write to their national organizer and I used to visit and deal with their complaints. Well er going back to when I started serving my time as an apprentice er I think I started with eleven shillings and I was there for about nine months when the manager come over and says to me he had been paying me short. About one and odds a week short. And I got a packet with a few quid in it that day which my mother er appreciated. Anyway it was very kind of the manager to do that he could have said nothing. I think the wages went up round about a half a crown the first year or five bob the second year in er er progressing like that. And when your time was out there was no question of you not getting a journeyman's wages you were you were paid that alright. And did they tend to keep their apprentices on at ? Yes. Very little very few apprentices were sacked unless through misdemeanour or anything but if you done your work you were there to as long as you you liked. Now in in the bakery at that time it was one of the most progressive bakeries in the city and it must have employed at least about a hundred bakers. Maybe forty women and er so many van men dispatch workers and van men. The the thing that er sticks out is that at time there was no women organizing the union and er I had a go at organizing the women and I was very successful. Because at the end of the day we had a hundred percent women in the union in that bakery. But I must say through help of the national agreement and that takes us back to nineteen forty seven. All local agreements up and down the country which it counted to eighty odds were all scrubbed and there was what you call a national agreement established to cover the whole of Scotland which meant the man in the remotest part of Scotland got the same wages and conditions as in as the man in Edinburgh or Glasgow or any big city. And that was a a certainly a step forward for the the little places. And they loved the national agreement . How long did it take to establish that did it take you a long time to? It must have took about three years any way. It I think forty five they started negotiating forty five forty to forty seven and er when we tried to alter the national agreement or change it in our minds for the better you always had the solid block of these wee fellows up and down the country sticking by the national agreement because they got such a good deal out of it it brought their standards right up to the the best that was going. And by no way were they going to let the national agreement down. Anyway To take you back a wee bit before that er when you were an apprentice was your tuition from your journeymen quite good ? Oh going back to the apprenticeship you were more or less left as you stood because I I thought that journeymen were very what's the word very er they were only too willing to let you know what was going on and when you think about it you can see why. In these days they were feared of their job. There was unemployment going about and the man that had a certain job at making certain things weren't to keen to show the apprentice what to do or give them the recipes. But however you you wangled them some way and you you eventually learnt your trade by half going to classes at night school and half of information from the bakers you had to put two and two together and you worked it out. Was the night school classes were they quite beneficial? The night school classes were very er efficient because the teachers that taught in the night school were actually bakers. Expert bakers in the trade and er they showed you it from A to Z. Although some of the things that you were taught you maybe never got a chance to do them in the bakery. You were only a sort of number in a bakery and er worked at a table along with the rest. You weren't doing anything individual it was more communion thing you were making the likes of if it was brown bread you're all standing rolling up and chaffing brown bread and putting them in tins. Then you went on to the next thing you all done the same thing over and over again. But there were some in individual jobs where you had their wee experts er doing sponges and er icing cakes and all these individual jobs. The man that was the best at it got the job. But most of my work in the bakery was on the the small side scones and pancakes and crumpets and er little cakes. That was er more or less the compartment that I worked in. They had other compartments where it was only bread and other compartments where it was just confectionery. But er this is how they they wanted the work done and it wasn't a question of one man had to learn the lot you just had to do work away where you were sent to work . Now was one of the biggest bakeries in Edinburgh you told me it was er three stories and each story had a different function . Yes. It was a it was a very big bakery it had three floors and on the bottom floor was that's where they done the bread and rolls. On the second floor it was all the scones and tea bread and currant bread and on the top floor it was all confectionery work and sponge making and what have you and pies. But er it was quite interesting and er more or less you got a chance of going through the departments when you were before your time was out. But er that was how they they got you into the the trade. If you were keen and that well it was up to yourself a lot how you how you picked up a lot of things because if you were keen you could pick up anything you wanted if you weren't well that was just too bad it's your own fault. Now did you work er an eight hour day? Yes it was an eight hour day. The apprentices er didn't start before six o'clock in the morning of course they couldn't start apprentice before six o'clock in the morning until he was maybe in his last year then it would be either one o'clock or two o'clock in the morning. And the hours er the early that's what they called the early men they went in at one o'clock. They were they preparatory workers they called them. And they had everything ready for the squad coming in you know. Well the main squad would come in about two o'clock or three o'clock and er was already for them to start working. Now on a Saturday when they come to a Saturday the early start was eleven o'clock at night. And I think the last start was about one o'clock in the morning and you got extra payments for the extra hours. But you you always needed early men in. Preparatory men in because if you took a body of men into a bakery half of them would be standing looking about doing nothing until something was prepared. So that was ideal having preparatory workers. So you were working eight er eight hours six days a week? Eight hours six days a work that's right. Could you give me an example of how you went about making a a bread scone or a roll or what had to be done? Well in in our in our in our er compartment where it was scones and crumpets and pancakes and everything they had the they had the special man that done the dough in. Then the dough was all cut out on to a table where you had men chaffing them up. That's rounding them making them round. Then you had a a squad of men pulling them out and cutting them. Putting them up in the wires and other men putting them on the hot plates to fire. That was a process there. Oh and the bread again it you had your dough men on the bread who made the doughs. The doughs were come through the machine cut into sizes certain weights moulded and the men put them in tins. And er that was a constant process from start to finish. You were on the same thing all day all day long. A a set plain bread. Plain bread was a different matter. It comes through the comes through the machines and moulded. Then it had to be loaded up what they call long thin boards. And the boards were carried onto the drop plate and knocked out. And you knocked the next one out until you got whole complete drop plate of of bread. And that was put in the oven to fire it. It took about two and a half hours to fire that bread. Cos pan bread was only about three quarters of an hour. So that's why they tried to fade plain bread out the market altogether. Takes to long to make and fire. But that's the bread with the two crusts. The top crust and the bottom crust. Compared to the pan bread there's a crust all round it. That was er that was the process of bread. Well in these days your your sponges had to be set in the afternoon for the men coming in in the morning. But nowadays they have m machines, high ratio machines which beat this dough up in three minutes. These doughs are made in three minutes now where it used to take six hours. Or the process was six hours. So you'd be producing thousands of scones and lots of bread Yes yes. turning them out. That's right. There was er y you had er you had a certain amount to make every day. Some days was more that others. Especially at the weekends. There was more at the weekends than there was through the middle of the week. And it was all girdle scones scones muffins cream scones currant scones pancakes crumpets treacle crumpets treacle pancakes and all this. But er it you got enough to keep your day going anyway. And er as I say that was one of the busiest bakeries in Edinburgh. During that period. Mm. Don't remember how many shops they had then do you? Had a lot of shops ? Yes. They had over a hundred shops in in Edinburgh. I I couldn't tell you the exact number but it was over a hundred shops in Edinburgh. But I think they've closed a few since then. There's a lot of them been closed since then. Now what were your conditions? What was it like to work in in factory? Well the conditions were top conditions. Er comparing bakery with bakery were as good conditions as anybody. And they had also er showers for you wash up when you finished. Wash hand basins in the toilets and everything. It was er up to the standard of hygiene that you could get. The basic you get at that time. And er Was it very hot if you were working in the ovens there? Yes. Well these were the hottest place that you could work at the ovens of dough in the bread ovens. The sweat was running down your back all day and I've seen me taken off my white clothes and hang them up and they were still wet when you come in the next day. And er working at the hot plates of course that was a hot job as well. You were over the hot plate all the time. But there was no extra money for that. Ovens er ovens men. But this has only happened since we got the national agreement. Ovens men and dough men got extra money. But er the extra money they got was no worth taking the job. It wasn't worth the responsibility. But they tell me now that it's been increased immensely now what they get for being an oven man. Because at the end of the day nobody would take the job. Because of the responsibility they had a pound was no covering it as far as they were concerned. They so it could be five pound now for the responsibility I don't know. But it was a very responsible job because if you got an oven for your stuff and you burnt that boy there's a lot of waste . So they had to get a chap that knew his business and I think he was entitled to get extra money. And the dough man was just as in the same responsible position. Because he could jigger up the doors just the same as anybody else. So I think he was quite right in handing out to get extra money. Because he could ruin a dough as well as anybody else. What about er safety was it a fairly safe place to work? Yes. Er bakery was pretty safe. They had maintenance men of their own of course who they seen that all the machine was guarded and everything else. But you know you'll always get the chap that comes along and lifts the guard to get his hand in and he loses a finger and he blames that he blames the firm. But er no as a as a safety bakery it was as good as any. As good as any I would say. But very little accidents in . Now er during the war baking was er a reserved occupation. Can you tell me anything about that ? Yes. Well du when the war broke out the all bakers up to the age of twenty seven was reserved. Which meant that er you could try and get away if you liked but you as soon as you mentioned you were a baker and they looked at your age you were . So anybody that worked at the baking trade and was twenty seven was reserved. Could not get into the army. Anybody under that is they were taken away to the army no bother. And er of course during the war we didn't have the freedom for making the stock that we we done prior to the war. A lot of all these lines were cut down you know. Couldn't get supplies? That's where er we made some money potato scones. It was er potatoes were being used oh bags and bags of potatoes were used in I don't know. Went into everything. Pies scones and they made their own with the potatoes. They bought the potatoes and they put them into this machine to mix them up with a couple of pails of water and then they drained all the taters off and left the milk that was left and used that for the baking. But er Were conditions any different during the war? Well no no not really. I would say conditions were a wee bit easier a wee bit you had a wee bit more freedom because they knew they could not replace anybody if they gave the sack. And if they did give you the sack you would be walked away to the army I expect. But every firm every private firm was took the advantage of the reservation. That the bakers would be reserved at twenty seven. The only bakery that I know that didn't do that was the . The didn't reserve anybody and quite a lot of their men at forty was taken away to the army. And how how they got on er with losing these men I just don't know. But they never reserved anybody the . So if you were in the and you were forty years of age you weren't safe for going to the to go to the army. Well er continuing on bakery the bottom floor which was a break making plan. Now during the war when we had to have all the windows sealed and blacked out that place became very warm and very uncomfortable to work in. And eventually the bakers nicknamed it the Belsen camp. Now the squad that worked down there when anybody left there was nobody would take their place. Because they didn't want to work under these conditions. And as as I say they had to put all the mens name in the hat and pick them out and put up a roster and they had their turn of going down the bread week by week. But at least ten to fifteen bakers to my knowledge left rather than go down to what they called the Belsen camp. And the the firm was very annoyed at hearing this name getting banded about because it was getting a bad name. But that is really truly what happened. It was that uncomfortable to work in. Every window was black with paint and there was no air coming in at all and you walk in between very very hot ovens and the sweat was lashing down your back. So they had every difficulty in getting bakers to work down there. Now if we can go back to the period when the eighty odd agreements was developed into one national agreement, it seemed to break up what we would term a big happy family. Because all the local places that had agreements everybody knew each other you knew their families and whatever. And the interest in the trade unio trade unionism was kept alive. But since we got the national agreement in nineteen forty seven the same interest wasn't in the trade union movement. Although heaven knows we tried to keep it there. But the simple reason that the men the local men had nothing to do with making the agreement now so they lose they lost interest in the trade union movement. And er further to further that opinion when we got the dues taken off the worker's wages and delivered to the office that still didn't help the the matter. It still helped the remote chance of getting people to come to the meetings. They had no interest in the trade union movement. The the dues was deducted of their wages so therefore why should they go to meetings. They hadn't they had no er inherent right to make resolutions or ask for increase in wages that was all done at conference by their their representatives. So I think bringing out the national agreement, although it was a great development for the union, and these docked a lot of the work they had to beforehand had to do, it certainly didn't help the relations and the entries in the trade union movement. More or less I think it went against the entries because the members just wouldn't turn up to the meetings. Did you get the feeling when you moved about that the members felt this that the the organizers of the union was a wee bit adrift? Well that's a feeling you got moving around that er what the hell was the good of coming to a meeting you had no say in your conditions or wages or whatever. It was all taken up by the top brass you know . And this is what you got. But as you look at it nowadays you can see if they were going back to these days would we still have the same interest. Would they still come to the meetings. Because we had halls where the members couldn't get in it was packed. But nowadays you're lucky if you get a dozen. And it's only because they have no rights in what they're negotiating for. And negotiations are all done on their behalf. And they've gotta lump it or like it. You you can't have much influence at all in in these decisions? No well more or less the branches had the opportunity to send in resolutions to the national agreement which were dealt with at conference. But regarding wages and hours they were all taken by the executive council and debated at the national joint committee with the employers. But it was what the executive council thought the increase in wages should be not what the members thought. And I think this done away with a lot of entries and keeping people away from meetings. When did you actually go back to when did you you worked there after the war for a while did you? Yes. I worked in up there about nineteen fifty or fifty one when I had a dispute with the manager and I gave him a week's notice. You want to say anything about that? Well it was on at that time I was dropping pancakes and crumpets and the manager come up one morning and said that there was running late. The despatch was complaining that the stuff was late. Well you either left the line for me to try two or three mixes for custom purposes. Which meant you had to try the mixing drop it onto the plate count how many you got out it clean out the machine and try another one and do the same again and the same again. I told him this and he says, Is that all it takes minutes. So I says, Well if it only take minutes you bloody well do it yourself. And at that moment I told him to take my week's notice. During the week he come back asking me if I forget about it and withdraw my notice but stubborn as I was I refused. And I left in about nineteen fifty or fifty one and started in a little shop in Road in . How were your er wages moving by this time? Did the war make a big difference to the wages? Er the wages weren't really moving at all in these shor er times. Er we had lost quite a bit during the war. Prior to the war the bakers was at the top of the tree of tradesmen. Three pound nineteen and six or four pound one shilling that was about the top wages in in the land at that time for tradesmen. But during the period of the war the bakers sadly fell down to about the middle of the table through the old saying that you've got to be patriotic and help the war effort. So the bakers lost out during the war. And it took us a long long time to try and get back where we were. And we're still not there yet. Although we're getting nearer and nearer. When you worked er before the war did you experience any wage cuts? Prior to the war no no. Er prior to the war we we did very the three pound nineteen and six and the four pound one that I'm talking about that was all done with local negotiations. Locally we done that and it wasn't until we we went nationally under national agreement we lost the wayside. And er we fell by the wayside in the wages right. And we never got back again. The Mm. are still very poorly paid. How about your hours. Were your hours coming down at all? Er we got the hours down to eventually we got the hours down to forty four. I think it was forty six forty seven forty er forty six forty five forty four. They come down that way. Er and usually we maybe had to give them a holiday. We lose a holiday for to get an hour off the working week. But these were all the traps in negotiations. Now when you moved to was that a kind different kind of work obviously you were doing a wee bit more variety. There was only about three of you was there? Yes it was different type of work altogether. Er was on a smaller scale of course and more done with the hand than machine. You had your certain lot of wee machines that helped you to do things but more or less it was all done with the hand. Even er the breaking of dough was done with a lot of mang a little wringers thing you know. Compared with these big electric rollers. But the however we got by and it was a very progressive wee bakery. But unfortunately the parting of the ways had to come and I worked in another wee shop er down in Albert Street in Leith. You want to say why you left ? Well it was through er up and I ended up doing bakers work. I complained and although it was stopped I still got my books later. So you moved down to Albert Street So I mo which is another small bakery? I moved down to Albert Street which is was in the borders of Edinburgh and Leith. And er during the time I was in in Albert Street although I was still very interested in the union and on the committee I think I was president or vice president at the time, there the job for a local organizer come up. But with me being in practically the borders of Edinburgh Leith branch was er they pulled me into Leith branch. They say I should've been a member of Leith branch. But our to avoid that situation I left and went to work with which kept me in the Edinburgh branch and within three or four weeks I stood for the local organizer and had not been successful. And that was the end of my baking days. What was this full time union work? That was full time union work. Er just before we go onto you union work, what were you having was quite a good employer I believe? Yes. They when I when I became a full time employer er a full time employee with the union it was all more or less small bakeries. The only bak er and the that was about the only three big bakeries and they had plenty of collectors and shop stewards in these places to look after themselves. But I'd dealt more or less with the small firms even to the the extent of collecting dues. And attending to their complaints. Now that developed that developed from er nineteen fifty four to nineteen sixty six. That was twelve years. When er I stood for the election of the national organizers for the East of Scotland and I was successful there and I left the Edinburgh branch in May nineteen sixty six to start work with the head office in nine May nineteen sixty six. And I was there from May sixty er May nineteen sixty six to December seventy seven. Which was about another twelve years. Now how did you first get interested in the trade unions Mr ? Well I got interested in the trade unions because at that time more or less eighty five of the workers went to the trade union meetings. So the men always made sure the apprentices went and er it was just a matter over the years going to the meetings that you get interested in the business of the trade unions. And er it developed from there that er I was appointed collector at collecting the money and er Would you tell me a wee bit about that? Well when you collected the dues er it meant taking it up to the office every Monday and when you got up to the office and got talking to the officials and such like the interest became greater and er it developed from there that er the workers of thought they should have er should have a representative on the committee. And er I was put up for the committee and was successful and sat on the committee for quite a number of years. What kind of things did you do there? Well on the committee you dealt with com you met once a week on a Wednesday. There was about ten on the committee and er the full time secretary. Now we dealt with all complaints that had been lodged during the week and er would be attended. And also er letters that had been sent from head office. These were all dealt with on a Wednesday night and the secretary would get his instructions how to deal with them or or how or when to deal with them. And this was er more or less the trade union business. And and between that er every year the conference was held and er we had four meetings a a year local meetings. Quarterly meetings which they call them that was held in er the Odd Fellows Hall in Forest Road and I think it was the March January February March quarterly meeting that they er the ballot was taken for delegates for the conference. The conference was held in June. And all your big branches Glasgow Dundee Aberdeen and Edinburgh was allowed six delegates. The er secretary went because he was a full time official. So that was the er full secretary and six delegates attended and er put up the case for Edinburgh branch. only resolutions that stood in the name of the Edinburgh branch was dealt with by some of these delegates. And also any alterations or recommendations for the national agreement the case was put up for the delegates. And er you would have maybe a hundred and twenty delegates attending from all over Scotland. The small branches only got one delegate and that would be the part time secretary branch secretary he would attend. And er but they had they they said very little. Er you got one or two bright er part time branch secretaries and some of the wee branches quite capable lads. And er they would put up any case that they had from their branch. But on the whole they had er what you call a standing orders committee. That was picked out of er the whole. The voting er you voted for them at the delegate meeting and I think it was the six top six highest in the vote became the standing orders. Now they met on the Friday prior to the the delegate meeting and went all all over the agenda. And anything that was to be ruled out of order or they did it. But but prior to doing that they met with the branch that had put the resolution in. They met with the branch and discussed it with them and told them how it was out of order. And usually that was accepted. Although it had to come to the before it was accepted. And er that was er that was er the main topics of the conference. The rest was the rest on the agenda was resolutions dealing with the broader feeling on the economy and what have you. The likes of Scotland's economy that was on nearly every trade union agenda at conferences. Every year. But it never did it any good they never got to run their own economy. So that was that covered you delegate meeting. What kind of resolutions would you bring up there? Well er protocol you know. Er in fact there was very little resolutions dealing with their own business. More or less dealing with the labour party business of the government business. And any any reso what I call resolutions that were passed they were sent to the proper departments of government. And er whatever happened to them after that er. We usually got one back saying they'd been accepted and they'd deal with them at a certain time you know . But er that was practically your conference. Now they set aside a day of the conference for er deal with the national agreement. And er all the branches had a cook at the national agreement how to try and alter it and make it better. But it was usually the big branches that was doing the cooking. And er when it come to a vote to try and get anything passed or changed the wee branches were solid voting for the national agreement. So you had very little chance to change any. Unless it was changed at er a yearly in the negotiations. But er it certainly did a lot for the bakers but as I said it certainly took away the happy family union that we had before. Because as soon as the national agreement come into being our our of the meetings dropped down dropped down dropped down until there were very few attending. And I think the reason for that was because they didn't have a say in what was happening. Now to take you back to when you were on the committee representing what kind of complaints did you have to get there? Well one of the commonest complaints that we had to deal with was er when your time was up at twelve o'clock you they usually kept you working until about five or ten past twelve. That that was a regular thing and er that was unpaid of course. Then of course you had to take that up to the office and report it to the the branch secretary who would come down and deal with it with the management. But they just in these days they just looked at them and said, Alright. But it happened it kept going on happen. But one of the complaints that I was very bitter about was at that time I cycled to my work and they had paving stones in the bakery with the slits in them for to keep bikes. And er I used to keep my bike in there. And this day when I come out the bike was gone. I went up to the union and reported it and asked them to do something about it. They said oh they couldn't do nothing about that but er didn't think they could do much about it. Anyway I I bought a little book that I saw in one of the shops and it was er The Industrial Lawyer. And in that little book it said, If the firm provided space for bicycles or what have you they were responsible for them. And I took that little book up to the union and showed it to the branch secretary and still I never got my bike or any compensation for it. I was very bitter about that. Then that I got that book back when I became a full time official it was still in the still in the office . So I took it away. But er I that's one of the complaints that I was very bitter about. I thought I should've got some er compensation anyway or something. But I don't think the branch secretary bothered himself much about it. And of course I was to blame for not keeping on his and making him do something about it. Er the other complaints were just more or less er maybe arguments er workers getting into trouble over their arguing about frivolous things you know. Shouldn't have been doing that and shouldn't have been doing that. And er there was always two sides to these stories. But you report it anyway and let the let the branch official deal with it. But more or less er dirty towels for drying your hands that's another common common complaint. And as I say er seven people seven workers did when they all that trouble started the bread. These were all things that er you. I reported them when I went up but whether there was any success in the things I just don't know. One of the another thing that I remember when I was in er they come to the er delegate meeting in June. You've gotta ask to get away for three days. And I went into the management the bakery manager and asked him and he says to me, This is not a cooperative bakery. I says I know I says it's not only cooperative bakeries that's in the agreement. Anyway I says, Well I've asked you and you've said told me no. I says well I'm gonna take it higher. So I went up to the general manager Mr and he he sa told me certainly I can go. So. However how however how the managers felt I don't know. But I certainly got to the delegate meeting. Er What about organizing the women? Did you do that before you were full time? Oh yes I was collector collected the money the dues and in er bakery at the time. But er the national agreement was established by then and er I just I just took it upon myself to try the women and that I was very successful. But then where it was a closed shop. We got every every women that worked in the bakery into the union. Now on the ground flat it was a despatch where they despatched the goods. That was all women as well. But we never touched them at that time. Because we we hadn't wages or conditions or anything like for them Right just Right, first thing, We'll make a list. I lost me prescription when he gave me, and we've been away. The, my eye I got some drops from the chemist cos my eye was bad. And it feels as if there's grit all in it now. Yeah. So you hav t haven't actually had any Eyecron No I had, I had of the chemist in Chapel because it came Yeah. so bad. Yeah. So you really need some Eyecron don't you? Yeah. I think I do with this. You really need some Eyecron Yeah. I wouldn't go to a doctor there because of this malignant thing so I just managed till we came back Yeah , well I Getting better but it's just this gritty thing in the back of my eye, I mean I Yeah. was Just er look up for me. It still looks rather boggy doesn't it? Mm. It's terrible. Er the other eye. That one Mm. doesn't look too bad but that one Just look straight at me. Yeah I, the front of the eye looks quite, Mm. It just feels horrible. Yeah. It's nothing to do with hay fever is it, this, do you think? Yeah. Cos when I blow nose, this thing,pops. It's ever so queer. There's a drainage tube,th I've always suffered with my sinuses. there's a drainage tube that goes from Yeah. this corner of the eye, to Yeah. the top of the nose. Which is Mm. why, when you cry, your nose runs. Okay, and Mm. Mm. if that is a little, that keeps blocking, Mm. when you blow your nose it will tend, it can go the Mm. other way as well. Yeah. But are they okay with leaving it for another week will I? It'll be okay with Mm. leaving it. I hope. Well I hope the Eyecron will actually get it to settle down. So, you said that was the first thing, or were, was it that were both it No that was it. I wanted to be honest and say I'd Yeah. lost a prescription. Then we went away you see? And I thought, well I'll just pop in chemist and I was hoping it would clear it up, so I wouldn't Yeah. have to confess. No don't wor But it's not. Still gritty? Yeah. So we'll see what the Eyecron does. If it still remains uncomfortable, then we, then we need to have a closer look and we may need to get the eye specialist involved if it's refused to settle down. But you can still see clearly? Yeah. Yeah. That's good yeah. I a lot of pain at the back of my eye though Yeah. while I were on holiday, it was terrible. Well it's bit brighter at the coast, and Yeah. Well we'll, we'll see what happens with the Eyecron I think that'll turn it off, but doesn't then we must have another look, very important. I'm very Bye bye. Okay. See you. Bye now. I call them discussions I don't call them interviews. Because we're Mhm right. not offering quote a job. Er it's a business opportunity. Mhm. Self employed commission only. We make it absolutely on the phone. There you are. You did. So that you know that I do takes notes at the other end. There are my notes and that it absolutely critical for us to know. All right yes. I haven't just done that. It's quite a different coloured pen. Yeah. He did mention that to me he did say that to me . Yeah erm There are two or three things er that erm we are essential for us to find out when people phone in. Well first of all whether the the whole environment of selling advertising appeals. Mhm. Whether they can be understood on the phone. And I'm not worried about accents. No no. I'm just if I can understand I think they are more acceptable nowadays anyway aren't they ? Oh sure. If I can understand people after twenty five thirty years in sales and marketing listening to people on the phone and knowing how important it is in this then I then that's fine. But I've actually spoken to an even a a real Tyne and Wear Geordie accent Yes. I say I'm sorry I cannot understand a word you're saying. Yes. Or very sorry I find it very difficult to understand Yes yes. er so it wouldn't be any good for us. Mhm. Because we're talking to a lot of professional people who are from all Scots you name it they're from it. Yeah. So that's why we we make the advert curious enough or enough curiosity in it, no vagueness I suppose we make it vague enough to say I've got to phone in. Some people will say to us, Now I've seen your ad there's paper and that paper there are two things I get from that. Either you've got a massive turnover in staff or erm you're going somewhere. I say well it's definitely the latter. The latter. But there is a certain element of the former. Yes. Because in any self employed situation you're always going to get people who find something quote better Mhm. in their opinion and that's that and and they get it. Mhm. But in terms of turnover in staff I would I would be fairly confident in saying we have the lowest one of the lowest if not the lowest in any direct sales operation. Mhm. We happen to have the largest direct sales force of its kind in the U K anyway. Yeah. Yeah. We want three hundred people by the end of this year because the business we've already got just waiting to be done in phenomenal. Well And is and is a continuation of business or is this referrals? Well when you when you understand er when you get to understand the products I mean there's there all our six companies are represented over there er Maggie Right. Erm er one thing that is common across all of those products is exactly what the consultants do. And that is bring together the advertising to fund the product. Mhm. Non of that product is or ever has been or is ever going to be sold. Mm right. It's all given to Mhm. you see this this this one you brought in here Mhm. unless the local printer's very cleaver somehow and got that advertising to to sponsor er the booklet they've had to charge for it. Mhm. Or they have to do what we will never do and that is take the quality out of it. Now the doctor may be quite happy with that. Say no. Yes. By law he's not even obliged to give them that as something as posh as that or smart as that. All he needs to do is to do a photocopy Yes. Yeah which is what I got from my doctors actually. That's what I got from mine. Did you? Until they came up with er a very cheap version of that . Yes. And I was disappointed I went and say, Hey Mm. by that time I'd been involved with . Yes. Erm but one of the things they did not like is for erm to have a sales consultant on the medical practice for three weeks using their Right. telephones because that's part of the deal. Mhm. If you're not prepared to sign that contract then forget it. Mhm. Erm so there's no point in talking. There are still a number of er medical practices around who still don't agree with advertising. Mm. Even though their own Yes. B M A have said it's quite Yes. and the general medical council have said no problem. That to get back to part of your original question, the company existed on folders the the estate agent folders, for fifteen years. Five years six years ago they introduced the postal wallets because they found that estate agents were sending the very expensive glossy brochures out in the post. It was costing them extra in postage Mhm. and they kept asking us to print more. Right. And that was expensive. Mhm. Postal wallets were the wonderful spin-off from there. And they are now getting to the point where they are are popular as the folders in terms of Mhm. the estate agents that take them. Yes. Medical practice booklets four years ago or it's five years now I guess, five years ago erm er it's almost five, legislation was brought in by the then Health Secretary Ken Clarke now our dear Chancellor. Erm when You might think so. Well yes no I said, Dear. Should I say expensive Chancellor? Erm Yeah. but he did I a favour at by bringing out er a law that said that they must provide something like this. Yes. We went to the er B M A or the G M C I'm not quite sure which and asked if we could could approach er doctors for this and they've been snapping our hands off ever since. Schools universities and colleges they were a spin-off from the parents' choice charter. Right. They have to promote themselves now just as they've got to get bums on seats as they say. Mhm mhm yes. Er golf clubs well golf clubs will take anything they get for free. Mhm that's true. And we bought the company last year that did that so that Right. brought it into the fold. Now so in a in a way I've answered your your er question by saying that erm we are doing an awful lot of reselling. Every two years we reprint this product and we resell the advertising. Mhm. And as we take on new assignments er two years time they'll be resales. So it's an ongoing process that the first medical pra or some medical practice booklets are just coming up for their second resale. Mhm right. Schools universities and colleges in er about a year's time the first resales. Mhm. That's they're all the new ones. So there is absolutely tons of work. Mhm. That's why we give an absolute guarantee that we will give you continuity of assignment. Mhm. Nobody sits at home twiddling their fingers. Erm I can guarantee one other thing It's intriguing sorry go on. you will earn a far sight more money than the TEC will ever pay you. Even though they've been squandering our money now. Haven't they? Oh. It's I was my own company er does management training and I won't touch the TECs Yeah. Cos I see all the waste and all the people in those organizations. And thankfully us independent consultants in training have just been er vindicated for all we've ever said about them. Because they've come out with a report saying what we've been saying for the Have they? last few years. Mhm. Jobs for the boys it was. I feel very strongly about that because it was mine your Yes yes. An application form. If you wanna have a look through some of those products while Yes. I'm have a glance through this Maggie erm please do. I know these ones. Oh there'll probably be some er names that you've seen Mm. and recognize. Yeah this is our this is our area this one. Oh which one's that? Oh right yes. Yeah. Yes. That's a strange size I don't why I don't know if we still do those. But er that came er into my hands Gazette. recently so. yes. So erm that's a strange size. I think somebody brought that in from er he he'd gone along when I was up here a few weeks back. Mhm. So I kept it. So there's er quite a varied erm sales background here Maggie . Mm yes. Yes. Stationery er Universal Supplies. I was at Universal twice . Is that the big company? Yes. That's the that's the one that prints the catalogue and then personalizes it. I'm sure I've I said to you on the phone I think . Yes. Cos I made a note Universal Yes it is and they have you know most of their own own brands which is where they make their money obviously. Mm. Hampers now there's a there there's erm a market place that's advertising all the time. Was Yes. this was this done by you know the subscription each week or each month? I didn't work on that side actually Rod. I worked on business to business. Oh okay fine. Is there still And I and I er oh to the corporate market. Yeah. I used to go to all the erm exhibitions Olympia and GMEX and all of those. Erm and then it was my job to chase up all the leads afterwards. Right. Good fun? Yes. Yes. Doing the exhibitions yes. Yes. I had some sore feet Hard work Yeah I know. But er everybody thinks oh you're going away stay in a nice hotel. I used to run a training course on on how to run exhibitions and one of the things that that female were always surprised about I said don't where high heels on the exhibition stand . Yes yes. You still see them doing it. Yes. Oh it's not worth it is it? My feet are hurt, change your shoes dear. Thankfully fashions have changed somewhat now Yeah that's right. haven't they? That's that's er that's we are I think we are subject to fashion all the time. So the lads have er flown the coop have they? No no. The thirty year old is still at home. Really. Can't get rid of him. Can't get rid of him. And he's been working erm in in the shop. We've just closed a delicatessen actually. Oh right that's right you had a deli didn't you? Erm yeah Ken had one and he's managed to erm secure early release from erm the lease which was due to finish in July. Er but since the multiples started trading on a Sunday last year our sales just went down. And you're a grandmother too. Yes yeah. And you dote on him I guess. We do. He comes every weekend. Does he? Oh. He comes Friday to Sunday we keep him. Oh can I go to grandma and granddad. It's a big problem at the moment. Now what's this? Nights at the pub network. Yeah. Or is that nights at the pub Networking and networking? Well it well it's really just it it mixes in doesn't it? You just meet people erm you know Oh sure. Erm and it's all to do with contacts because I'm still running my own business erm of of Doing what? selling hampers. Oh right. But this is I didn't I didn't hear that. this is something though, well they're all finished now at Christmas. But this is Oh you that's right something that Ken would like to take over now. Ken? My husband. Because he's always been in er in food. Mm. Okay. Erm and I'm you know I'm sure now it's it's Yeah it's one thing that er we have to reem reemphasize to people and usually I do it on the phone, that if people have got businesses erm the way look at it there's such a commitment by this company to I can imagine that. for the self-employed even the self-employed status Yes yes. erm we guarantee. Er you can see the sort of backup er from the brochure Yes yeah. what sort of that we have. We not have to give we're obliged to give in terms of to keep the company going. Yes yeah. Erm and we are fully aware that some people have got other things Mm. quote . But it's when it interferes with the thing. They'd say Yes. well it's you know it's one Yes yes. or the other. Yes. But if there're a lot of people have got evenings you know Mm. network marketing and things like that. Mm. As long as I think network marketing I think it I think that turns out to be jolly hard work because if you're not recruiting it's the recruitment part of it . Oh yeah. That has to be If you're not recruiting. Yes I mean my wife and I have had a go at that. Have you? We're still we're still there but erm it it was the number of people you had to approach to get one into you. Because I there's nothing wrong with it. Eth ethically the Government have cleared it and in fact have forecast that it's going to be the one . The yes yes The marketing concept. Yeah. Certainly is in the State and Japan I was gonna say it's sixty seven percent of business goes through network marketing . it's more commonly known Yeah. abroad isn't it? Unfortunately it still has the pyramid selling er Tag. attached. Mm mm. That's right. And of course that's illegal. I've got no Yeah we looked at er N S A. We looked at. Well that's who we're with. Are you? Yeah. Oh right. I wonder if this is where er from then? Who? My my friend from er he lives at Sheffield. Right. I wonder if that's where he's heard of you then because he you know he introduced me to N S A. Oh right. I I went to some of the meetings and Yes. I did a couple of workshops. I don't Ian name doesn't er But er Ian . Doesn't ring a bell. No. No. But that's where I go. I started down there with Wakefield Right. at Wakefield. Yeah. Oh yes I mean there I've I've I wouldn't be without my er filter and my er Filter well I have one yes yeah. And the security products are very good too. Yes. Well I didn't see those because I didn't stay long enough. Mm. Right er I've got nothing wrong with it. But of course the recruitment aspect is really Mm mm. difficult and and now of course we we still retain our our distributorship but er we're not very active. Erm okay. There's the background there I've met you for for ten minutes. I've spoken to you on the phone. You can knock this one into a cocked hat Maggie. Could I? Yes absolutely. I will tell you right now. Well let me explain. Two or three things that we need to decide here today and that's the purpose of these discussions. Is A whether you and I think that this is er erm, if you can forget what your friend told you about Yeah. I it did I mean I thought afterwards I shouldn't have said that to er John because he would be thinking, Oh here's negative Nelly coming along. No that's all right. Erm Erm You know we've got people that erm But I think if you put your thoughts on the table at least you all know where you're starting from Oh sure fine. don't you. Erm in fact you notice I didn't even make a note on it. It just er I remember him saying something to me. Oh you you somebody said that they had a bad time with erm Because I was insistent I want I want I wanted to speak to Rod and er I said no I when is con when is it convenient to ring back then cos he said he's got the phone glued to his ear blah blah. Yes. And erm well I am the same status and I am his colleague and all this you know I can help you . John gets very defensive okay. Yeah. Er nice guy but he's never been in recruitment. Right. So he er but he had sold. In fact he er I understand he was a very good er advertising salesman. Yes. They brought him inside to erm recruit without giving him any training at all and what I do has been gained over the last twenty years of recruitment. Mm mm. So erm in fairness to him I think he was plunged into something he didn't have a hell in er hope in at that time of coping with. If somebody was interviewed by him and had a bad time, I can tell you I had a bad time, well to me it was a bad time, when I with him and he saw he spoke with me. Er when I was asked for my opinion afterwards erm er I said er well I I quite honestly I wasn't er interviewed. I thought for thought for fifteen minutes I was er should I or should I not join the company. Mhm mhm. If you have that bad feeling, well not join the company but . However that's . Erm now the three two or three things that we're talking about today really is, er and one we've just got over I think, is that you and I er I'm I'm absolutely certain you'd knock this into a cocked hat. I've had other people here that don't come anywhere near your background and and your style and particularly your voice. Which is so critical to us. Mhm. Erm the other thing is to for you and I decide er well once you tell me that you're happy er with what's happened so far. Erm the other aspect is to decide where you feel that you er could be most comfortable environmentally. Mhm. In other words in what environment will you feel comfortable with working in. Mhm. Now I have one of those erm it is a luxury because I have erm six companies where I want people in the north east. And to have a choice like that it means that anybody who comes in here is not in competition with everybody else. Mhm. I can legitimately offer most people that came here today er I happen to have rejected a couple. Erm because that's also what we don't do hide behind reject letters. Mm mm. Er regret letters. Erm is er the other thing is when. Mm. When we can start. We do have a fully expensed training course at head office. They vary only very slightly across all six companies but the most common thing is that that we won't send people out Mhm. erm blind. Mhm. Okay? Well that's not good for either is it? No. I can't I can't sell unless I'm happy with the product. Er unless I believe in it myself I can't erm Well er this company has er survived for twenty years. It has it can't stop growing. Mm. Erm we we own all the property at head office. There's no mortgage. Mhm. We just bought a printing Brilliant. Yes I know. In fact if you did a Dunn and Bradstreet That's lovely isn't it? on us it would count, in effect we're cash rich. Yes yeah. The concept's so simple and and the country's littered with people who thought they could do it as well as us. Mm. I noticed all the nice motors as well. I was thinking I would As in fact I had a go at that I had a go at I had a go at them about another prod er another photograph. They've obviously lined up er all the best possible cars in the car park. I'm not sure is that the same photograph? Have a look at this one. Yes it is actually we use it on one of our other brochures but they've they've got all the er all the nice cars. And you see it when it generally er and also it's a perfect day. I haven't seen a perfect day like that over in Blackpool yet. But in fact where it starts here to there's the Old Mill Right. Right. These have been added on. Mhm. It goes right the way you can see over there. It goes right the way back. Now right at the back here further down is erm the building belongs to us, all of this is own without a mortgage by us, right at the end er is we we've leased erm a section out to Pickfords Oh right yes. They're moving we so desperately need, I think we've terminated and bought the lease er bought the remaining lease. We leased it to them because we need that area. We're building new training schools, we've already got a big one up on er in one of the er it's it's this end here. Mhm. That's the whole of the training school. Cos you Crikey can see all the smokers gathering along there sales meeting. When you have a sales meeting there's the whole all the sales people who smoke, because it's a totally no smoking company. Yes yeah. They have they by law they have to . I don't smoke I like that. By law they have to put somebody er put somewhere in there for people to smoke. But it's totally no smoking all the way through. Mhm. And you see all the smokers lining up there . So that yes. In fact that shows the erm doesn't show . But they've been there for twenty years on that spot. And of course we are looking at other products all the time. I'm just investigating for the company er going onto radio. Taking our ad that Ah. you see. So if people say to you well we're always seeing their ad. Yes. You will because we're determined that ev you'll see our ad a lot . Everybody will. . Excuse me. Mhm. But it does give to some people that that will demonstrate that we're always looking for people Yes. Mhm. because we can't hold people. Yes mhm. Well the the reverse is true. Always looking for people because we need to add on. How do you feel Maggie so far? Are you are you erm It sounds very interesting. Mhm. Okay. What about environment which one would you ? What about environment? Now which one would you choose? Erm I don't know really. I don't know. Erm I mean tell me in more depth how it works Right. Erm you know from the Simply our consultants, go on ask the full question sorry. How it works? Yeah. I mean obviously you erm create the the interest. Right. Now what we do erm and this takes an awful lot of workload from the sales consultant. Mm mhm. We set up all the assignments. We have a separate marketing er executive group. Right. That are travelling the U K right now on behalf of more than one of the companies. We have a marketing executive who signs up golf clubs. We have er two marketing execs three in fact that sign up schools medical practices and we have four I think to sign up estate agents. Mm. All independently of each other going round to the, well I say independently, but they obviously get fed a lot of information from head office where we have a telesales operation. Right. Who do nothing else but phone businesses and organizations and surgeries and golf clubs and tell them about our products. Right. They they will have the same script almost and say this is a free of charge item, all we need from you is this this and this and if you're interested I'm gonna ask a marketing executive to come in and agree a contract with you. Mm. In simple terms that's what they say. Right mhm. Marketing exec goes around signing up the contracts. Mhm. Right? There will be certain discussions which I'll go into in a minute, at the at that stage which will determine what we're going to do for them. What we're going to do for them is certainly provide a free of charge product, it's the numbers Right. and the when we're going to do it. Yes. And the who's going to do it is not determined until a couple of days before either party knows. In other words if the estate agent or medical practice will get a phone call from us and say look we'd like to do your assignment is it convenient. They may say, Oh wow no we're just having something done at the surgery rebuilt. Right. Got a couple of new doctors coming in a new practice manager can you leave it for three months. Okay so we put that back. Another one leapfrogs. Right. And then we say who's available it's it's come up in North Shields erm who is available who is just finishing an assignment. Oh Maggie is erm fine where is she at the moment, oh she's at Hexham right well we'll give her a call at Hexham and say this is where your new assignment is going to be. Right okay. And that finishes on the Friday or whichever day of the week and you start the next day. You can start the next day. If you decide you want a couple of days off to take your grandson shopping or something like that, er or your husband even with his cheque book, then you just have to tell us. Mm mhm. But if you have to tell us that you wanna week off we need some notice. Because that might be right in the middle of an assignment and they Yes. do not like that. No no. That's fair enough. No. So if you want one So you've got to tie all your loose ends up haven't you? So all of this is all set up for you. Right okay. So that's really you literally only have to listen to the phone call and turn up. Mhm. All right? Now most of the people who come to see us have never sold advertising have never wanted to. What we do is provide them all er all of them with er a training course an awareness which does include on some with some companies two days out in the field. Either before or after the course. Right? Right. Medical practices for instance two days beforehand before coming in for three days. Right. Fully expensed we pay all all travelling and hotel bills. Mhm. The reason I'm say ask people to erm give me some idea of where they feel, I may have my own ideas, where they feel, depends on the information I impart on people. That's why I like to get that out of the way. But in essence we are erm all of the sales er marketing execs are discussing the same thing with whichever organization. Mhm. How many booklets how many postal wallets how many cards how many folders we're gonna print for them. Right. That will depend on the information we get from them. Mhm. We are er going to ask them to compile a list of businesses which they are happy for us to approach. Mhm right. How are you doing your telemarketing at at the TEC? I've been provided with lists. And what what what typically are they? Erm people erm the TEC database actually All right. and people who have responded to circulars that they've just sent out. Where they're offering the free hours counselling and er and the two days yeah you know consultancy and the investors okay yes all right. Okay and what's the sort of reaction that you're getting from them? Very good actually because it's free though isn't it? You you can't really knock it can you? No. Now that would be an ea that's er telemarketing in it's in it's pure sense in that you're offering something free are you interested It's softest form isn't it? it's soft. We have to harden ourselves up for this. Mm mhm mhm. But if you've got the right attitude and right, as I said on the notes, right voice and the right er personality, it it's just the same as having somebody face to face. We have the luxury of course of having to go face to face anyway. Yes yes. Because most telesales people don't, even in advertising. Mhm. They do it all through the fax So after you you've erm do it would I then go out to see people, is this what you're meaning? Yeah. Once you've go we what we don't do in in advertising erm whatever your er your son may do himself, is it your son in in advertising? No. No. Where did I get that from? Don't know. He he was in the deli with us . Oh sorry that was my last my last. That's how you carry on. If I play my tape back I'll me say that again. Erm no in in terms of selling advertising we make sure that the prospective advertiser knows absolutely everything on the phone. Mhm. We don't make appointments to go and see people to talk about advertising. Only to talk about the contract and the copy. Mhm. And to pick up a deposit cheque. Right. If you if there are certain things that if you don't tell them on the phone, including the price, we tell we talk price. Yeah there's the price it's size it's this product you know the reason we're phone you because you've been identified as by the estate agent or medical practice or school as being very suitable and they would very much like you to support this. Right okay. And it will cost you this. It will cost you this per year for two years. Mhm. And it will it will get to this number of people and this is how it will be used. Now that's not face to face that is on the phone . That's right yes yeah mhm. And one of the things they do on the training course is is to compile a script with you. Mhm right. And I had a script but after a while you don't you set that aside and use your own style. Mhm. I know It's a good base to work on. Yeah. They sometimes come across stilted don't they when you're trying to Yes that's right. trying to do your own thing and Yes and don't don't break in I've got to read my script. So that's that's Yes. in in a nutshell what we do. Mhm. And quite honestly about it. It's not people only make this job difficult I believe erm if they don't listen to the people who's who have been doing these things for twenty years. Mhm. And er I include myself in that by having been in sales and marketing for all those years I thought I I could do anything. Mm. But this is so different to what I'd been doing as it is for most people. Mhm. Well as to which discipline erm I feel you can do this and I know you I think you know you can do this. I would think erm estate agents or schools. Yeah I wouldn't put you in estate agents. Wouldn't you? Why? They've been going for twenty years and er there's er school is very much, I would have put you straight into schools Would you? Yes. Oh well. I'm glad you if you if you'd So I was half way there then wasn't I have only mentioned estate agents I'd have I'd have been disappointed because Yes. you know now you've given me a let out. Erm schools I think schools is just up your street mainly because erm And I'll tell you another why I think schools will benefit a lot of people going, first of all it's a fairly new product so we're really in the launch up stage. Mm. That actually benefits us here by the way. Remember estate agents have been going for so long they say, Oh is that another folder? Mhm mhm. Whereas you say I'm I'm responding here for Gosforth Park School or whatever you know, that might not exist but, Yes. erm er any school because estates state schools and independent schools That's right. erm there's a certain prestige about erm going on to a school. As there is with all of those but not necessarily estate agents. Yes. However, the other aspect is that if you go to a medical practice you may have four or five doctors to help you out. If you go to an estate agent you may have two people to help you out. Mhm. Go to a golf club you may have just the golf secretary. Go to a school you've got fifty to sixty teachers. Mm mm. And I recommend to anybody who goes on the school, I'm sure they do on the training course, that the first opportunity I would have to address erm the con er the staff meeting, you just say this is what I who I am this is why I'm here I've got a list of businesses which the school has provided with me already but I I will I may erm if I bump into you in the corridor I may just say do you know anybody else. Mhm. And they they you know if you've got a bit of style and and maturity about you that will go down well. Mhm. Let's talk about schools. Mhm okay. That determines the pack I bring out you see. Right. I may keep that that'll be helpful I'll send that back to the school er to the er Incidentally would you like a cup of tea? I'm fine thanks Rod actually no I'm fine thanks. Would you mind if I ordered one cos I am No not at all no . I missed lunch and everything. Yes that coffee must be . When my wife transcribes this she'll say without picking serious note of Freud, it's a bit like you know discussing space high on gravitational without mentioning Einstein, I mean, you know th that's wh what people seem to do, and it strikes me as ridiculous. Er, but, you know, Freud discovered so much about consciousness and unconsciousness that erm, you ignore it, strikes me as just silly. Well, I think a lot of what happens in the academic world is, and my guess is the fundamental reason they get away with it, is that young people won't buy much, spending their own money on it, and I think if they were, you couldn't serve up a lot of the crap that passes for higher education today. Consumers would want something better. Most people end up neither of them are prepared No, well, that's true. But erm, and it's a big book that book, isn't it Oh, yes A hundred and fifty thousand words, at least. You'll notice that I gave that one a miss, because I had erm, so much more pressing things to do. But, erm perhaps I'll get round to it. Anyway, he's coming to the conference, so I dare say I'll sit and hear what he has to say. So wh what kind of writing are you doing anyway? Well, I'm writing a popular science book, at present. Yeah. Called Psycho-Darwin, cos you know there's a big boom in popular science publishing and erm, I got a New York agent called who's very good at selling people books, and he's sold, he's sold mine. And so now, I've just got to write it. That's coming on quite nice. And I'm trying to present the kind of things I do in this course and my other course. Erm, in oth in a way, you know that any erm interested reader could understand. Mm. And for me, it represents an opportunity to complete the kind of Freud-Darwin synthesis I've been working on really, for the last ten years, and it kind of represents the completion of the synthesis, as it were now completely merged in my mind into a single, the single kind of entity that I, I know call psychoanalytic. So that's basically what the book is about. It's primarily put over as a kind of erm, power line to the future. Well I mean, would you, would you have said to begin with, or Not, yes, it's based on what erm, on the kind of stuff we've done in this course. The idea that, that human beings are a species whose social interactions are very critical, as we know social interactions are also very important to reproductive success, and so I bring in inside this analytic cooperation the idea about deception and the evolution of the unconscious, that press deceivers don't know that, deceiving. Did you do that paper? did that paper You did, you did. Fine. Erm, well, what you did, when you talked about that, and then erm, linked it up with Freudian insights into the unconscious. Ye yes, so so you aren't happy with to begin with. No not, problem neurological. so you're saying naturally arises because of its complexity of how it interacts? Yeah, I'm talking about how it arises from the evolution point of view, as an not, I don't go in at all to the whole neurological question, or how the brain is produced consciously. I honestly don't think we know enough, well, anyway I'm not qualified, erm. Well, even if I were qualified, I would be very, very sceptical, because I think we just don't know enough about that yet. About having brain cells. But then it does go into that side, because it goes into Yeah, that's, that's well. I mean, what does he call himself, a cognitist scientist or some other thing? I think so, yes That's his area, and cognitist science is supposed philosophy, psychology and Computer science and computer science I mean, that's where the answers all come, I'm quite sure, I'm just sceptical, that we know how much about it. And what about the role of language, does he, cos my theory an and, and Freud's for that matter,original, but erm, does he give a role of importance to language? At the end, I gathered Cos my thing is, that language is critical. I can't see how you could be conscious, without it matters, but it's interesting you know the hearing tests we were talking about. I mean, you were I know you said something about that in the past. That really is trying to, erm, discover whether the person on the other terminal is human by means of language, and really, you can't think of any other way of doing it. Well, it's five past according to my watch. And I'll do, I don't know about the other they seem to be all over the place today. Right, let me find my evolution folder, which is here. Okay, and here. Bits, bits of it are here. Erm, er who's performing today? You are, and what are you telling us about? Right. So you are. , can I just ask Mm, today. I won't be able to to your lectures, cos Oh, how irritating. Erm, well, I'm sorry about that. That kind of thing shouldn't happen. Could you change your class if it were really Yeah, the other one's at the printer form now, by the way. Oh, I see, I see. That's the summary I handed out the last week, you wouldn't have got Thank you. and that's the summary of today's lecture, you would get next week. Thank you. Well, I'm sorry about that, I mean that, that's really very naughty of them. Wh what, what er, answers that? Mm, I suppose they have to do it because of the computing erm, departments, has some equipment they want. Oh, dear, I'm sorry about this. Anyway, it's only for a few weeks, you said. Okay, well, er,complex. Tell us all about it. Well done, excellent, erm, as you can see, in some ways quite a complex er, issue, and it's one of those things really, I think to fully understand this, you got to sit down with a pencil and paper and work it through yourself. I'll, I'll go through it, erm, fairly carefully in the lecture. Erm, let's start with the simpler issues though, that mentioned at the beginning. Erm, and that is the whole question of conflict about parental investment in general, and er, she put it very well and, and, and, and very clearly, and I'm sure she understood it, but let's make sure that everyone else does. Why, should there be conflict over parental investment, because after all, children are the link product of success of their parents, so shortly child and parent have got exactly the same self interest haven't they? Yes, and that's a good erm, starting point. The, the point as says, one has to bear in mind is that, okay, in general fostering are the successful parents, but the parents probably have more than one offspring. So, erm, how many people here have got brothers and sisters?you do, well everyone's got brothers and sisters. Well, erm, you've all heard of sibling rivalry and sibling conflict. Thank you. Erm, does anybody not believe in sibling rivalry and sibling conflict? It is something that everybody is with you, yeah, Right, well now how does that relate to what just said. Wh what's the what's our theoretical insight into it, given what we've done about natural selection parental investment. How could we explain that? That's what our peer would lead us to expect. It is true, is that right,. What do you think ? Erm, certainly when you're, you're very young, I mean that when you're driving for attention. Mm. Could you give us an example, or Erm You got an example. You got attention. Attention. Yes, Yeah. yes, just for instance, my brother pulling my hair in the back of the car and annoying me. You know really screaming and getting raged really resentful and then, you know, back knows ultimately you're wanting parents to side with us. Yes. So it's sort of, you know, we want to be favoured because we want all the reward, we want to be given a sweet, we want That's the basic idea, isn't it? That's an excellent is your brother older than you? No, younger. Oh, younger, I see. pulling big sister's hair. Yeah I still got the blame for it Oh, yes, life is never just. Erm, does everybody else go along with that? Is that everyone else's experience? would y does this happen in Japan? Are, er, little brothers just as naughty? Erm, yeah . My brother is much younger than I. I don't know. So you're expected to give your sweets to your older brother, dear oh dear. You were younger, was he younger or older? Yeah. I, I older. So he was younger? Yeah. I see. So, even though he was younger, erm, and did you resent that? Were you angry about that? How did you feel about Sad, sad, you were sad Mm Erm the why should a parent, looking at this pretty critically why should a parent want an older child, like to give up something to a younger one? Is there any biological action can you see any? Right. Right the rationale is that the degree of parental investment and its effect on the offspring vary with the offspring's age, and as says, one of the fundamental erm, principles of this is that the, by and large the younger the offspring the more valuable any unit of parental is to it, and the more efficacious it is, and the most obvious example of that would be food. Obviously, if you're a very tiny newborn baby, the amount of food you need to er, put on extra pound weight, is, is not going to be the same as if you are a much larger child, and you want to put on proportionately the same amount of X pounds, whatever it would be, it would be same the same proportion of your weight. Er, it could be one pound possibly with a child. You'd have to eat a lot more. So the idea is that erm, a parent may have an interest in diverting the sources from older offspring to younger ones, because younger ones might benefit more from the same unit of resource. Because they're so much smaller, and perhaps this is what was happening in your case sounds very unfair, to me, but er, but, but, but there we are. Perhaps it did. The erm perhaps the best example of this to bear in mind, and again that mentioned er, erm and explained very clearly, but I think we to mind, is weaning complex. Now, did everybody understand that? do you understand about the weaning complex? Well, mentioned it. Perhaps we ought to lo well, what is weaning? Everybody knows what weaning is mm? What's weaning for? I'll explain,what weaning is. Ya, ya. It means erm, specifically, wean the breast, so that the child accepts solid food or that's what in general means erm, getting a child off baby food as it went on to adult food. Erm, okay. Why should there be a conflict about weaning? Again, surely both child and mother have the same approach on it, erm, where does the conflict come in over weaning? It shows more child, whereas That's absolutely right, well done. Yeah, the, I don't think erm, mentioned this in her paper, but er it's a, it's a point worth, worth mentioning in passing because it er, it er, underlines what er, you've just said. But in, in mammals, as a whole, I think there are few exceptions, and certainly including human beings. The er, sucking of the offspring inhibits the mother's cycles and it is the sucking, it's not the actual of sucking, it's the neurological stimulation of part of the mother's nipples. This inhibits her sexual cycles for varying periods of time depending on the species it's about two years. Now, you can see that in the ma mammal where this happens, there could be a very clear contrary as says, between the mother's desire to start another offspring towards the end of the period of, of breast feeding, and the offspring's interest in having some more milk and postponing the birth of the sibling. So, we can expect conflict and, and did make this point, but we need to underline it, because it's very important. When we talk about paradoxical conflict, we can expect the conflict at the margins we, in other, if we made er, if we made er kind of diagram of the parents' self interest in providing parental investment and the offspring's self interest in demanding parental investment, we find that there are large areas of overlap. For example, erm, in the case of newborn, or young or a very young offspring, and a, maybe a mother has already put a tremendous investment into that offspring, as you've already seen. So, her self interest and the offspring's self interest are the same as father's intended. She has a self interest in giving her milk to, to er grow to a point where it can survive on its own. She's already invested so much that, and the offspring has got a self interest for getting as much as it can, so their self interest coincides. Where their self interest comes into conflict, is at the margin, and the margin can be in any dimension. One dimension might be in this time, as we have seen, the mother might reach a stage where, she, it's in her productive self interest to start another offspring, and she may want to wean the existing one, so she can do that. Switch resources, as it were. But the existing offspring may benefit more, may need a little bit of extra milk, so the existing offspring may try to erm, demand more milk, or at least milk for longer than the mother to supply. Right. That's right. The same thing will apply in the terms of quantity. The offspring will probably be selected to want a greater quantity of parental investment than the parent because again, a little bit extra for the offspring probably means more than what to its reproductive success, than it er would mean to the reproductive erm, success of, of the mother, as far as the offsprings are concerned. And the example that, that gave following which was a good one, is crying. Now, erm why do you think, why do kids cry so much? And so in intensely? Cos half the adults don't do they, or if they do, it's normally taken as a sign of severe erm, upset, isn't it? Erm, if erm, if one of them contradicted me in the class, I burst into tears, I think you'd think something was seriously wrong with me, wouldn't you? Whereas, if I was a kid, and you took my sweet away, and I'll contradict my you wouldn't do it, would you? You wouldn't be so concerned, why is that? Well, that's the way we rationalize it, don't we, but supposing we were Martians, you know, weren't used to it. it's all I want is attention Well, that's true, that's true as well of course. But the, the reason why that's true maybe, mightn't it, that if you look at it from the child's point of view, the crying is a, is a signal it's sending to its parent. Basically to say, er, look after me, or give me what I want, or er, do what I want you to do, or whatever it may be. In some counts, a signal of distress but is attempting to solicit something but is usually what we would classify in our abstract concept of parental investment. Now, if, if a child sends a distress call to a certain level of intensity, it may get a certain amount back, but it may have a sibling who sends the distress call a slightly higher level of intensity and might get some more back. So the idea is idea is that a kind of arms race will develop between the siblings to amplify the signal to get as much back as they can from, from the parent. So the result will be, that the young children will cry an awful lot over about very small things, because what they're doing is they're amplifying the signal to a maximum level. The parent on the other hand, will tend to get erm, a little bit, erm, a little bit sceptical about this. The parent will tend to recalibrate their response, as, as, as you have said, parents will come to expect children to make a lot of fuss about nothing, and consequently won't pay so much attention to a child's distress as they would to an adult's, because we regard it as natural, children to cry or make a fuss about the treatment we contribute, but the reason for that could be that we, we have as it were, readjusted our sensitivity to distress and we, we really have a double standard. We have a standard for children which assumes they can either send very strongly amplifies the distress, and therefore, we are not going to taken them terribly seriously, or at least they can actual reach much higher intensities before we do take them seriously, whereas for adults we have a different standard which, which assumes that even slight expressions of distress in adult could be serious. So so erm, basic idea about crying is this kind of arms race situation, which offspring have been selected to amplify the signal, because it promotes their reproductive success, to get every little bit of extra parental investment we can for themselves. Parents have been selected to become erm, relatively insensitive to signs of distress in the offspring, because erm, as where they cry wolf all the time, and as a result, erm, parents don't take crying as seriously in children as they do in adults. There are other examples of this, and one interesting experiment that we've just done with birds, was with the gape response in birds. You know that when birds are chicks in nest, they gape, their little mouths open wide, like this, and they, whenever the parents come back to the nest,wi with a worm or something, you see the little chicks, their little mouths wide open, they kind of reach out of the nest and, and, and try to to their feeding. Well, in this particular experiment, what the experimenters did was, when the parental birds left the nest, they stuffed the erm, the chicks as full with worms as they could possibly stuff it. their throats were completely erm, full of worms, and they couldn't get any more worms into those throats, so they knew these chicks were totally full, as full could be. When the parents came back, the erm, gaping behaviour was exactly the same. There was no difference between a chick that was totally full of worms and couldn't have handled any more worms, but still as it were, behaved as if it was on the point of starvation, and a chick that was really hungry, had in fact, observation shows that, what parents do when they come back with, with the food is, very often they, they probe the throats of the chicks with their beaks, to see which one's got much most room before they actually put the food in. So you often see on nature programmes, for example, when a bird comes back to a nest with several chicks in, you see the parental bird kind of poking its, its beak in the in the gaping beaks of all the chicks. Not because it's feeding everyone, if you look closely, what it's probably doing is checking how much food is in their gullets. It's got a worm, and it finds one that's relatively empty it sticks the worm into that one. So the parents are being discriminating, but the chicks are being very demanding as it were. have got totally banished, and, and they, they grow but the parents are being discriminating, because it pays the parent to discriminate and feed the ones who really need it, but pays the offspring to, to demand as much food as is possible. So everybody with me so far? weaklings,you know in erm, how intervals, affect the survival of offspring. So could you say this was in the modern society effect. You know to keep Oh, yes, you could, you certainly could, and as I said for long periods, parental an and offspring self interest will overlap. It's at the margin where they're probably wont. In other words, there will always be a tendency for, probably for the offspring to want the mother to go on breast- feeding for that little bit longer tha tha the mother may. So that th the weaning conflict will occur towards the end of the period of parental investment. An interesting example of this, I read about recently in the press. Last week's New Scientist, I think it was, or the one before, was a study of one particular type of bird with, I can't remember wh what kind of bird. It was kind of dark, and apparently what happened to this, towards the end of the period of parental investment, when the parents come back to feed the ducklings, they insist on the ducklings following them. They run away from the ducklings and the ducklings have to follow them, and chase them as it were, and the one that catches them, is the one they feed. And it looks as if this behaviour is all about encouraging the ducklings to erm, go off on their own, as it were an and to start to run off and look for food. So what the parents are doing is they're rewarding the duckling that runs the furthest and the fastest, to erm, they're trying to reinforce that behaviour, because what they're are trying to do, is get the ducklings away from the nest and start looking for, for food for themselves, presumably. So here here's a case where this conflict of interest leads the parents to actually kind of encourage their young to leave the nest and, and, and wander off. The supposition being that it's always easier for the offspring just to sit on the nest and wait for the parent. Erm,th that's easy, it doesn't expend any, any energy and er, from the offspring's point of view that's worth facing. But not necessarily from the parent. Okay. So is everybody with us so far, because this is when it starts to get difficult. Because now, let me try and confuse you on that. I hope I will, erm. Are you chilly? I'll go out, I'll go get the windows that shouldn't be open north. Perhaps the central heating's going down, one minute. If I can turn on . Erm, let me try and confuse you first, and then enlighten you later. Because you know it's a common trick in education. Erm, let, let me give you the confusing bit. Surely, surely human altruism shouldn't mean, that there shouldn't be sibling conflict, because human altruism shouldn't mean that since all siblings are equally related to their parents, given you that they're called siblings. There should be harmony, not conflict, shouldn't there? No. You've still got your own brother. Right. Can everybody see that? You see, you could say, surely there shouldn't be a weaning conflict, because an offspring should say to itself, okay, my mother wants to wean me, to have more offspring, but those offspring she's gonna have are my siblings, I'm very closely related to them. In fact, I'm as closely related to them as my mother is, if you think about it, because I share half my genes with my four siblings and my mother shares half her genes with my four siblings. Therefore, our degree of relatedness is the same. Therefore, my self interest in having siblings and my mother's self interest in having children are the same. But that argument is fallacious why? Oh, yes, I've only just said it. Right. This is the important point, you have to know it. That's the best way. But this is the way er puts it, and I think it is a very good way of, of, of putting it, as both and say, the point is, that every individual offspring is twice as closely related to itself, as it is to its, to its siblings. So it's quite true of course, that the, the individual offspring wo may be affected by inaltruism. In other words, erm,whateve the R is greater than C. Do you remember our, our formula for penaltriate benefit of an altruistic act exceeds the cost discounted by the degree of that's between a half normally. The offspring ought to be so put to that's perfectly true. However, the point you have to erm, recall, is that if it's a conflict between parental investment in a sibling and parental investment in myself, I am twice as closely related to myself as I am to my sibling. So when my parent is handing out the parental investment, I will be selected to want the parent to give the investment to my sibling if the benefit is twice as great as it would be to myself. But if it's less than twice as great, I'll want it for myself. Does everybody see that? Right, now comes the next step. How does the parent see it? We've described it from the offspring's point of view. How does the parent see it? Because the parent doesn't see it the same way. How does the parent see it?you, you're a parent, you've got a unit of reproductive success. Erm, what you mean, if, if one reacts about it Mm. Bear in mind that see it but it's more likely to pass on energy units, because it's the stronger, you know. It's more likely to reproduce it in itself. Yes. Yes, it might, it might, but, but, but now you're getting a little bit, you're getting a bit too, too sophisticated now, we're going to come on to that later. Erm, we're looking at all other things being equal. Let's assume that all the offspring are the same, in quality. Even, let's even make them all the age. Let's say they're all the same in quality, they're all the same in age. There's still a difference as far as the parents are concerned. Can anybody see what it is? Well, alright, I mean. Let's deal with the first bit first. Why should they treat them all equally? Why, why does the parent regard its offspring equally? In what sense? Why? This is the important one. From the parents' point of view, it is equally related to all its offspring. Now this is, this is the counter-intuitive bit. Supposing I'm a parent. In fact,let let's do this in terms of a little diagram. Let's put this on the board. I'll do this in the lecture. But let's just do it. It's easier if you do it on the board, and you can see it. Let's, supposing that I am the parent. Okay. I'm the parent P. Here am I, parent P, okay. I have two offspring, A and B which are smaller, little er A and B offspring A and offspring B, and they are exactly equal in eve every point of view, size, quality and animal okay. Now, erm, supposing that er, I have ten units of parental investment, and I invest ten in A and ten in B because I'm equally related to both of them. Okay. Now, supposing that I want A to do something for B, like in 's case,A to give up a food item for B. Okay. Now as far as I'm concerned, if the benefit to B is greater, supposing for example, they're not the same age, sorry, I shouldn't have said that about being the same age. Er, supposing they're not the same age. But supposing I invested equal amounts of parental investment in both and supposing that if offspring A gives two units of parental investment to offspring B, the benefit to B's reproductive success will be three minutes, which it could be, if B was younger. Okay, A gives up two units of reproductive success, a food item to B. This benefits B by three units of reproductive success, whereas it would only benefit A by only two units of reproductive success. In arbitrary units, okay. Now, clearly, I will favour that, because now, B has a total of thirteen units of reproductive success and A has er, a total of eight units of reproductive success, because it's lost some. So totals here are thirteen and eight. Thirteen and eight is twenty one. In other words, the total reproductive success that my parental investment has produced is now greater than it was before I started. So, since I'm equally related to both, in other words, I have an equal number of genes in both offspring,th this, this transfer has promoted my overall reproductive success. Therefore, I as a parent will be selected to want that kind of thing to happen. Okay. You with me. Now, let's go back to what and say and look at it from offspring A's point of view. Offspring A looks at it differently, because offspring A says, my sibling B has only got half my genes, therefore I will make sacrifices for B, wherever B R and greater than C as we saw. Now, in this case, the, the sacrifice is er, two units of reproductive success, they benefit er B by adding er, one unit of, of reproductive success to it. So the cost to me is two, er the benefit to my sibling is one, and the degree of relatedness er, is a half. So the sum has to be one, times a half, is greater than two, which it clearly isn't, cos one times a half is a half, and that is less than two. In other words, I as the offspring are not gonna want to transfer those two units of reproductive success. So when my parent says to me, give those two units of parental investment that I just gave you, to, to offspring B I don't want to, because the benefit to offspring B, or rather the genes I share with offspring B, doesn't compensate sate me for the, for the sacrifice. I'm losing two units of reproductive success. My offspring is gaining one unit, that it wouldn't have had otherwise. Erm, and, that is, that is not a good deal as far as my shared genes are concerned. So the Oh, sorry, three, yes. Okay. Yes, you're right, sorry. cos it two three times half. Sorry, three times a half. So, it's three units that I'm giving my siblings. Right, three three. The total benefit is three units of reproductive success, three times a half again, is one and a half, it's not erm, it's not the of two. If you think about it, er, there are numbers that will, that will make it work. Larger numbers. If erm, what would it have to be? It would have to be at least, erm, what would it have to be, it would have to be at least the benefit, yes, the benefit would have to be at least four on the, on the B's side, in order for that to work. Anyway,the these erm, numbers don't matter, this is just an arbitrary example. The fundamental point that you have to grasp is that parents want any transfers between their siblings that will result in a net gain for the, a, sorry, parents want any transfers between their offspring that result in a net gain for reproductive success. It doesn't really matter to the parent, which offspring has gained, as long as there is a net gain. All other things being equal. The offspring, however, don't take the same view. For them, all other things being equal, they will only be selected to make a sacrifice, where the benefit is twice the cost. If you work it out for other relatives, the discrepancy gets even bigger. As mentioned, if you work it out for maternal erm for maternal cousins, for example the benefit turns out, has to be at least eight times. So the principle, the fundamental principle is that, conflict between parents and offspring, over a we over a altruism, over self-sacrifice, or, selfishness, which is the other side of it. Because, this works just as well for selfishness, because, if you think of it, selfishness is negative altruism. It's the opposite altruism. Parents will always want twice as much altruism, or half as much selfishness as the offspring, our certainty to . That's the whole thing in a nutshell. In other words, the conflict between parents and offspring, over offspring behaviour is not rooted in culture and nature, as we often think it is. It's rooted in evolution. It's rooted in biology. fo for example, says, that he, about his first erm, experience, was as a field observer of baboons in er, Kenya or somewhere. And this is one of the first, on the first day, he was astonished to see, an older male baboon intervene in a fight between two younger ones and stop it. And this astonished him, because he'd seen this kind of thing at home. He'd seen human parents intervene in conflicts between pa er, between er offspring. You know, like, like er parents did, when her brother was pulling her hair, and she wanted to clout him. I daresay they intervened to stop the fight. Well, what observed exactly the same thing with, with baboons, and said to himself, why are these animals doing this? There has to be a reason why, all the male baboons who have got no particular self interest in, well there's no obvious sign, in a fight between two youngsters, nevertheless he intervened to stop it, and he had realized that the reason, well he ultimately realized, development of parental investment, the reason they intervened to stop it, is that parents do not have the same self interest as their offspring do, when it comes to behaviour of offspring. There's a fundamental ineradicable conflict of interest, because the parents will want any gain to their offsprings net reproductive success. In other words, they favour any act of altruism. But the offspring will only favour acts of altruism where the benefit exceeds the cost discounted by the figure we agreed. How do you erm, Well, what, what I mean is, my genes for altruism are present in my body one hundred percent, okay. Any gene I had for making a sacrifice, on behalf of a a sibling, are one hundred percent in my own body. However, because of the way it relates in this work, they are only fifty percent present in my sibling, so any sacrifice of gene me er, it's not my actual inquest for your finding of the problems, the reason is, this is something we did last term in, in penaltriusm theory, so the others have got an advantage over you, they've already done it this time. I'm, I'm not surprised that, erm, you're erm,you you're having problems with it. But, it, it ba it's basically the penaltriusm idea that, for example, supposing I sacrifice my life, saving three of my siblings, okay? Yeah. I lose my life, so a hundred percent of my genes for altruism are wiped out. Yeah. But, I've saved three siblings. Now each of my siblings has fifty percent of my genes. So a hundred and fifty percent of my genes for altruism are saved in three siblings, compared to one hundred percent lost in me. That's a net gain for gene for altruism. Therefore it would be selected, cos that's what natural selection is. More copies of original. So the point I'm making is that offspring will be prepared to make sacrifices under those conditions, where erm, the R is greater than C. But parents will want offspring to make sacrifices, wherever B is greater than C, and the parent is not concerned with the discount parameter R, but agreed on relatedness, because parents are equally related through their offspring . So any sacrifice by an offspring, that results in a net gain in reproductive success, is good news for the parent. Because obviously the parents' got genes in all its offspring. Can you see that? Yes. It's counter see you, the reason, the reason that this seems difficult to understand at first is we're not used to thinking of it that way. And the reason is normally we look at human relationships from one point of view or another, or assume that perspectives are the same, but clearly they're not the same, the perspective of an offspring is not the same as the perspective of, of the parent. That was 's basic insight, and it's a very important one. As I have said, I'll go over it in the, in the lecture in more detail, but this is key insight. So does everybody see it now? Or at least got hold of the basic as I have said, the best way to do this, is to sit down with a piece of pencil and paper and work it out yourself. Try and do the sums as it were and think it through, and if you do that, I think you'll see that er, it does work out this way And of course, it gets er, even worse if you consider questions like relatedness through parents, because clearly I may be related to my mother's sister's children, my cousins, er no it's actually nieces, because my mother and her sister share genes, but I'm not er necessarily related erm in the same way, erm, through er, my father's er relatives, for example , because although erm, because my er, my, my relationship between mother's kin and my father's kin is purely through marriage, so they have no joint genetic relatedness. So, although I am genetically related to my mother's brother's, or my mother's siblings' children or my father's siblings' children, the fact is, the siblings of both groups are genetically related to each other. And that produces further conflict, because the parents now take a different view. The parents now who they're related to. But their relatedness is not the same as the child. For example, my father is not related to my mother's er sister's children. Normally, if we assume, you know, completely non erm non-relatedness of marriage. So my father doesn't have a kin altruistic interest in me being grouped to my mother's sister's children. But my mother takes a very different view. She is related to her sister's children, so she has a genetic self interest in me doing things for my, for, for her er, female, er for her relatives and my father doesn't. So my parents er aren't gonna ag agree about my altruism. My mother will want me to be more altruistic to hers, than my father will. My father will want me to be more altruistic to his relatives, than my mother will. And this again will be a cause conflict. Sometimes is, and here of course is conflict between and married partners. How do we judge who's gonna be greater than we can't say that erm, how do we In practice, you mean? How do we do it in practice? Well, I suppose the simple, the short answer is, we don't know exactly how we do it. The, the longer and more and less precise answer would be presumably, human psychology has evolved in such a way, as to allow us to make those kind of judgments that would normally be reliable. Er, I mean, for example, erm, if we if you made us, well, let's go back to th your example. Giving up your sweets for your brother. Presumably, if you felt sad about that, what you're saying is, you weren't as happy about that as your mother was. Your mother presumably, who forced you to do that, was happier than you were about it happening, and that's what made you sad. The, in other words, your emotions were reflecting these kinds of calculations. You seem to have an emotion, that made you resent making a sacrifice to your brother, and, and presumably, would have stopped you making it, if you'd been free to choose. Whereas your mother, presumably, had a different emotion, which made her think this was right and proper, or er, if it pleased her, issuing up this sacrifice. So it looks as if you, people's emotions have been tuned in such a way, that mothers look on these situations from their point of view and feel happy about it, and offspring like you look at it from their point of view and feel unhappy about it, and your emotions are the way the evolution has equipped you to deal with these problems. So if you'd been given a free choice, you wouldn't have given your sweets to your brother, would you? No. However,ho how, what was the age disparity between you and your brother? Four. Four. My guess is though, that if, if the age difference had been something like erm, seven or eight years, by the time your mother was asking you to give up sweets for your very much younger brother, you would probably have matured sufficiently and perhaps identified enough with your mother to see yourself playing a more kind of maternal role, as, you know the grown up sister. You might not have minded giving up your sweets, because you, you'd have got a different kind of gratification. You would have felt oh, I'm being like mummy. And, and I think that kind of thing happens, in fact you notice it happening in families. Where there's a big age gap, between the children, the older child often will go along with the parental wishes much more, merely because it's much more mature. It won't be competing for the same resources. For example, it may not want the same sweets as, as the little kid, you know little kids like little kids' sweets, and grown up kids like more grown up sweets, they may like bubble-gum and things you wouldn't give to a little baby. So the very fact that the offspring are more mature, would reduce conflict, because the degree of value of the sources is going to be much greater, in other words, you could give up the sweet. The, the relative cost to you would be trivial, but the relative benefit to a much younger, erm, sibling of yours, might be much greater. And because you are so much older, you wouldn't see yourself as competing for the same resources, and you would probably have matured in ways emotionally, that would make you accept and identify with the parental values, rather than, than feel sad or, or resentful, because you felt you were more like your brother, as it were , and you were being discriminated against. Does that answer your question? I mean, it's not a very good answer, because frankly we don't know,th the full reasons for this, but obviously some variations in Oh, absolutely, it would. And, of course, I mean, we have, have to remember, that when we talk about ageing altruism, this is just an abstraction. I mean, we're not, erm, we're just simplifying a very complex situation, and in fact, probably large numbers of genes are, are involved, and they're, there are probably complex interactions between different sorts of altruism. kin altruism will certainly function within families for reasons that we've just been looking at, but this will also be a fertile and erm, encouraging er, framework for sibling altruism. So it may be that elements of the sibling altruism will develop in families, too. For example, you might have been a mere, much more happy about making a sacrifice for your brother, giving him a sweet, if you knew that on other occasions, he would give one to you, and because you are related to each other . In other words, you met each other a lot, and w we know you had the kind of situations that What I want to do today. I got some pens, today, which is great. Ah, that's wonderful, ah, of course, they don't work. Ah, that's just okay, got one that works. I meant to bring my own, but I forgot, and somebody's used the wrong kind of pen on here, so you can't rub that off. That was probably in desperation. Thank you. Erm, I have a pause dubbed, you know in comedy shows, they dub laughter, well, I have a pause dubbed. Makes me think the things I'm saying are very clever. Okay. Erm, right, what I want to do this week, is to go on to the next er, work of Freud's, that follows after erm, group psychology, or rather to the next two, because I'm gonna back these two books together for, hi there,, erm gonna back these two books together, because as we'll see, they, they really deal with the same subject. Or at least they start, both books really start with the same issue, and the issue in question is in many ways, well, you could argue that it was in many ways fundamental to the social sciences. And, and the issue is, question is is what is often called a problem of social order. The problem of order. What this means is it's the question of how is society possible. Why do people cooperate? Why isn't there total chaos, why doesn't everybody pursue their own self interest at the expense of everybody else, reducing life to a, a state of chaotic erm er, conflict of individuals against each other. This is what is normally called the problem of social order, and of course it's been around in philosophy and, and social sciences, really since the beginning, and er, some of the greatest and earliest works of er, social philosophy like Plato's Republic, are really in part about this er question. How do you, how do you er, create er social, social order. It often leads on to more prescriptive utopian ideas about what would the ideal society be like. But, erm, at the initial stage, the problem of order, really goes no further than asking a factual question. How is society possible? How in existing societies, does order emerge, because, clearly it does. Now, as I said, there'd been various answers er, to this, throughout history, one of the most interesting and significant as far as we're concerned, in studying Freud and the social sciences, was er, that of the English philosopher Thomas Hobbes. Thomas Hobbes, whose dates are fifteen eighty eight to sixteen seventy nine, can you read that? Thomas Hobbes was an English philosopher who er, wrote a famous book called Leviathan in which he explored this er fundamental question of social order. Hobbes conceived of what he called a state of nature. This was in fact, the state in which he thought er animals er existed, and it was the condition to which he believed humans beings would be reduced, were it not for the mechanisms that maintain social order. The state of nature,ac according to the most memorable phrase in the book, er, made life nasty, brutish and short. Because in Hobbes' view, the state of nature was one of chaotic anarchy in which every individual fought against every other individual in, to quote another well known phrase from the book, a war of all against all. Primeval chaos. So this was Hobbes' view of the state of nature. Of course society isn't like that. Or at least not all the time. It may at times become chaotic and disordered, but that, that's not the normal state of affairs, and Hobbes' analysis of social order leads him to conclude that social order only becomes possible, when individuals give up some of their freedom, to centralize authority. In which in Hobbes' view, should be a monarch, but in principle be any centralized erm, monopoly of er, of force. And by doing this, by giving up their, or at least part of their individual freedom everybody benefits, because law and order can be imposed by the er centralized authority,what whatever it may be. Nowadays, one of the explicit controversies which er, real kind of Hobbesian view, is er, debate about gun law, for example. The there's a widespread idea that if you let people have guns the result will be more crimes of violence and more murders, and therefore, people conclude, er at least they do in this country, that only the state should have a monopoly of firearms, so only the police and the army should be allowed to have firearms. This allegedly, erm, protests the, protects the citizen, and the, the logic of this argument, is really the Hobbesian argument, that if you let ordinary individuals have firearms they'll go round killing each other, or so it is alleged. I don't believe it for one minute, personally, but this is the, this is the theory, and I'll explain why I don't believe it, later. The, the importance of this, is that Freud is often said to have been a Hobbesian thinker, in the sense that, er without necessarily being directly influenced by Hobbes, he took a similar, a similar kind of view, or at least, so it is said. You could say, that er, a Hobbesian view of human nature, that people are basically anti-social egoistic and er, aggressive, and that if left to themselves, life would be a war, war against all, is what we might call a pessimistic view of human nature. Pessimistic in the sense that is says people are basically nasty, and if society is to be possible, then nastiness has to be controlled in some way or other, and since human nature is anti-social, social order comes about against the grain of human nature as a rule, has to be imposed on human nature. This is why I call it a pessimistic theory. You'll see why in a minute. And I think you can see why I call it pessimistic because, basically it says in the Anglican prayer book, there is no good in us, what's in us is, is bad, in the sense of anti-social egoistic, and if people are going to cooperate and if there's gonna be social order, then as it were, it has to be imposed on them. The good has to be imposed from outside, it's not, it's not in human nature. So this is what I call a pessimistic er, view of human nature, this Hobbesian one. Well, the first book in which Freud explicitly takes up this question in the opening pages, is his book of nineteen twenty seven, er The Future of an Illusion,and his begins, by posing the Hobbesian question, although it doesn't mention Hobbes, but, it's the fundamental point he makes, that civilization goes against the grain of human nature, and the question he asks himself is, how does er, order, morality. civilization come about, and in this book he gives part of the answer, and concentrates on that, and part of the answer he gives is, that it comes about through the institutions of religion. Religion acts as a restraining force on human nature, and er, raises people, as it were, to a higher, to a higher level, by for example giving them more proscriptions, like the ten commandments. So I think it's easy to see that religion fulfils this civilizing socially controlling role, but of course, this has been a popular theme in sociological writing in the course of the twentieth century, indeed, you could go so far as to say this, it is has become a cliche, in twentieth century social science. It wasn't quite so much a cliche in nineteen twenty seven, but erm, nevertheless, this is the starting point of Freud's er, Freud's analysis. Freud concedes that religion does indeed, have this restraining, civilizing role. Well, having agreed with that, Freud then, faces a problem, because the problem he faces is, that in the previous book of his, that we looked at er, that he had published erm, what fourteen or so years earlier, Totem and Taboo where he had talked about the origin of religion. He had given a picture of religion, which represented it as primarily concerned with guilt, with taboos against incest, and as er, representing the origins of civilization in primeval societies like those of the Australian Aborigines, and Freud erm, remarks in the opening pages of Civilization and Discontents that Totem and Taboo was never meant to be a complete theory of religion. He says, all I was doing in Totem and Taboo, was trying to explain Totemism, a very specific form of religion. I wasn't trying to advance a theory about religion in general, says Freud, but now I am, and in Future of an Illusion, he turns to the question of religion in general , not just er, teutonic religion, as in Totem and Taboo, but religion in general . So the question he goes on to is, given its civilizing restraining role how did, what er, explanation can we give for religion in general? And, his answer to that, is that psychoanalysis can give us a very interesting and unique insight into, into religion, and this was an insight which had emerged in the course of, the nineteen twenties, following the developments of psychoanalysis that occurred after the First World War, which we've already looked at and is essentially the concept of transference. I don't think Freud ever uses the word transference in the book, I may be wrong, but er, it may be mentioned, I'm pretty sure it isn't, it certainly isn't in any prominence. You recall that transference is a concept that Freud introduced into psychoanalysis to explain the way in which the patient in an analysis, tended to cast the analyst in different roles of different people, usually from their past and usually from their childhood, so the analyst would play the role of father, mother, brother, sister or whatever by turns, very often, in the typical analysis. And I think you can see that the, the word transference here is, is in the sense that transference erm, alludes to transferring something from one place to another, as if the feeling, which were originally experienced, for example, in the family, were being transferred to the, to the analytic situation, to the, to the analysis. So this is how Freud originally discovered transference, as an observation made in the course of analysis, and as we saw, erm, a couple of weeks ago, whenever it was I was talking about group psychology, transference was a fundamental concept in Freud's theory of groups. Because basically what Freud was saying was, the group we create semi-unconscious, the, the family. The leader creates the parental role, the followers play the role of the children, and er, as I pointed out in the, in the lecture when I talked about that, often this is erm, explicitly indicated by symbolic terms, in groups, such as papa, erm, erm,whi which gives you the word pope. Erm, er, class brothers, sisters in a struggle, these kinds of phrases er, refer to this. Well, what Freud does in this book, is to effectively say, religion is a transference phenomenon. He explains the appeal of religion in general to people, by saying religion is a transference. What happens in religion, is that the deity or deities play the biblical role, and the believers and the er, people here below, as it were, play the role of the, of the child. And this makes sense to Freud, because he believes that people believe in, in religion because of the gratifications it gives them. For example, if you believe in religion, you believe that the world and life has some kind of order and meaning. If you don't believe in religion, you might think that er, the world was just kind of here for no particular reason, and er, that human existence was just a kind of accident or something happen happened, and er, has no has no greater significance. But if you're religiously inclined, then clearly the universe looks a bit different, because the universe has a creator, and having a creator gives it some kind of meaning. It implies for example, it was created for some kind of purpose. So Freud says, religion giv gives people a sense of meaning. It explains the inexplicable. Where do we come, you know, it's, it's, it's, it answers the life, the universe, and everything questions, you know. Why are we here? You know, where do we come from? The kind of thing you ask yourself when you've got a bad hangover. You know, wake up on a Monday morning, with a bad hangover, and you think, oh my god, you know, what is life about, is it really worth going on? Er, this is the kind of life, universe and everything question. However, religion can, can do a lot more than that. For example, many religions, er, give people reassurance in the sense that, for example , not only do they say there is a, a god, or gods or whatever there may be, but these er, deities play a providential role. They provide for people. Many religions, certainly Judaeo-Christianity in the religions of that tradition, which of course includes Islam and Mormonism, are some of the worlds most important religions. Er, these religions certainly, and many others for that matter too, portray the divinity as providential, as providing the world for human beings and as being concerned with human welfare. Well, this is, is very reassuring, says Freud. It's nice to think, you know, there's someone up there, sitting in the cloud, watching over us and providing, as it were. This is er, this is a great reassurance. Again, the, the deity, in many religions is regarded as er, enforcing morality and justice, if not in the here below, then very often in the hereafter. So many religions, such as the religion of Ancient Egypt, for instance,whi which made a great fetish of this, has a belief in a judgment after death, followed by eternal retribution er, heaven effectively for the just and er, damnation effectively for the unjust, and some religions like Catholicism stick in an intermediate state pur purgatory, where you can work, work off a sentence, as it were , for a few, for a few thousand years. Kind of a heavenly parole system. And if you work off your sentence of pur you get parole to heaven at the end of it which is very nice. Erm, but you see the point I am making, the idea is that er religion appeals to people, because they, they see the in injustices of the world, erm, you know if er, er, injustice is an, is an inevitable, erm, experience, erm, some of us erm, might be inclined to think especially if you live under the British system of er criminal justice, and so if you can't get justice here, perhaps you can after death, because god is ultimately just, and no mistakes will be made in heaven, as it were. Er, there, er, the er sinners will be published, erm,the sinners will be published, er, sorry, that's a, that's a good point, see if I can remember that. Sinners will be published, er punished, the sinners will be punished, and er, the just will be erm, just wi will, er will er will be rewarded. So that's another great, wishful thought, the great gratification. Particularly if you have a sense of injustice in life. Again, religion appeals to people, erm merely in the idea of an afterlife. After all, er, the idea of death being the end of everything, isn't particularly gratifying to people, but er, the idea of an afterlife is, is very much more appealing, because it means death isn't the end, it's just a kind of transition from one state to another, and it's nice to think that er, there could be an afterlife, particularly if you can look forward to it, erm, in a, in a better place than here. So in all these kinds of different ways, religion provides succour erm, gratification and er, is the fulfilment of people's wishes, particularly th their frustrations, their erm, feelings of er being the victims as it were, of the world, can be satisfied to some extent by religious belief, which holds out some, some prospect of and hope, at least in the afterlife, if not, if not in this life. So said Freud, it's no wonder that people believe in religion, because religion can provide you with a lot, with a lot of gratification, but the fundamental psychological explanation for this, says Freud, is that these feelings that religion gratifies in adult life, are transferences of feelings that we all had in infancy. In other words, these things I've been talking about, map, if I may use that concept again from mathematics, they map to earlier feelings. Feelings in early childhood, where we were, indeed, helpless, where the world was, in fact, meaningless, where we were er subject as it were to erm, the arbitrary erm to, to, to arbitrary fate, and felt it because we were young children, but in which there really was a power that looked after us. There was a power that was providential, would provide for us. We did have er, judges and censors who would judge us and reward us if we d did good and punish us if we did evil. We did live in a state, where there were others knew more about the world than we did, and could make sense of it for us. Those were our parents. So the parents, says s says Freud, play the role in th the reality of infancy, that the deity, or deities play in the fantasy or illusion of, of religion. Religion creates the illusion, that those parental forces which were indeed watching over us and guarding us while we were young, still do so in adult life. And Freud is careful here to use the word illusion. He distinguishes in the book between an error an illusion and a delusion. An error he says, is just a factual misapprehension, but er, you know, you could say er, the capital of Australia is Vienna. Well that would be an error, because it's actually Canberra, but you could be, you yo that's, that's a mistake er, that anybody could make. However, erm, thinking that er, one day, er, you might marry erm, a prince or princess, Freud says is an, is an illusion, in the sense that er, people do sometimes marry princ princes and princesses, it could happen, it's not very likely to happen to any particular individual who might have that wish, but it could happen. Erm, as we know does happen. Not for long actually , but it does happen. Erm, so that's an illusion, a delusion, in other words, an illusion is something that could happen, but the difference between an illusion and an error, is an error is just a cognitive mistake, an illusion is a cognitive mistake that is kept going by a wish. An, an illusion, erm, presupposes that there is some kind of er, of wish er,under underlying it. And the wish keeps the illusion going as it were. A delusion, on the other hand, is a, is a much more serious kind of factual error in which the element of wish fulfilness becomes so strong that it won't countenance any evidence against it. So a delusion is something that people insist on believing, erm, no matter what. For example, erm, in erm, paranoia, delusions of persecution where people believe that is plotting against them, and no matter what you do, erm, you know if you said well look, we can prove to you we are not plotting against you, the paranoic says to you, why do you want to prove this to me, if it's not true, you know. You can't win. Not against a delusion. So Freud is not saying religion is a delusion or an error, he's saying it's an illusion, and it's an illusion because it's a factual mistake maintained by wish fulfilment. It's a factual mistake, of course, because er, there aren't in fact deities looking after us in the way there were parents in, in childhood. Our parents after all, were, were real people. They actually existed. Whereas erm, divinities exist only in people's er, hopes or imaginations. They don't er, you can't see them in the same way you could go and see your parents. And er, this illusion is maintained according to Freud, because of the wishes that people have. These wishes go straight back to childhood, and so religion represents a transference from childhood and a kind of emotional infantilism in which people try and make out that they're still children, as it were, even though they, even though they really aren't. And then of course, the other characteristics that go with religion, and that he had emphasized in other books on Totem and Taboo, like guilt, the feeling that you ought to obey the moral commands of the parents, because after all the parents weren't just benevolent entities who looked after you and rewarded you and praised you, but they were your judges and censors as well . They punished you when you did the wrong thing, and they rewarded you when, when, when they did, when you did the right thing. So the believing in religion with, with moral codes, particularly in those religions which have rather strict moral codes, and demand quite a lot from the believer, in terms of adherence to the er, to the moral law even those religions can be explained in terms of Freud's transference theory, because that too, comes from childhood. The thing that you have to obey, if you don't obey you will be punished. That too, is a transference from the childhood situation, where the child is under the authority of the parent. In adult life the, the, the authority of religion stems from this, from this transference effect. Now here of course, and, and by now we've reached the closing pages of the book, though it's actually quite a short book, erm, it doesn't take very long to read. Here, Freud in terms of paradox, because on the one hand, he started out asking the problem of order. How is order possible, and answered it in part, by saying, well, religion is a civilizing order creating force. In the next step of the argument, he then said, well, religion is a transference, and therefore a form of infantilism, so now he seems to be criticizing religion, but if he's criti criticizing religion by saying it's an illusion, surely he's jeopardizing civilization, because the danger, as he points out in the book, if you take religion away from people, you say, look, this is just an illusion, God doesn't exist. The ten commandments are just a myth it carries no more force whatsoever. Might the consequence of that be, that people then go out and murder and steal and rape and fight wars, and do all, do all these kinds anti-social things? In other words, if you say, religion is an illusion, are you undermining and destroying social order? This is a this is a paradox that Freud has to face up to. And in the closing pages of the book, he answers this this er, problem, by saying, well look, er, you don't have to base morality, civilization, and social order on an illusion. On the contrary, Freud says, basing it on an illusion is, is very very dangerous. Because you see, the thing with illusions is, it's okay as long as people believe. For example, you know, you could frighten a child into I mean this is not an, an analogy Freud uses, this is one I thought of, but it's in the same spirit as his argument. You could, for example, frighten a child into conformity with your wishes by saying that erm, you know, if, if the child doesn't go to bed at the right time, the bogie man will come and eat them up, or something. You might say something like that. And I can remember being frightened of the bogie man when I was a little er child. My elder brother used to terrify me with it. Erm, okay the bogie man would come and eat me up. Erm, well as long as the child is, is young enough to believe in the bogie man, everything is fine, and that child may well go to bed on time and er, and er, shuts its eyes and goes straight to sleep er in fear. But what happens if the child matures a bit, and realizes that the bogie man is just er, just er an invention, created to, to set fear in it? In the first place, says Freud, the child won't obey any longer, necessarily, because now he's got nothing to fear, and secondly, a child might resent the lie that has been told to him. You know, I was told about the bogie man, but the bogie man, I now know, didn't, didn't, didn't, didn't exist. So, Freud says, trying to build morality on the basis of religion, is like trying to build a house on sand, because the foundations won't hold. The foundations are illusory. What we need, says Freud, is a sure foundation for social order, and the only foundation that will do is, is reality. The trouble with religion, is that transference is based on an illusion and it serves the pleasure principle ultimately, because it's a tremendous wish fulfilment. Wish fulfilments as we know, and what we saw about dreams and so on, so the pleasure principle that reigns in the unconscious. And as we saw, the unconscious is out of contact wi with reality and so need take no account of it. However, says Freud, ideally, morality and social order should be based, not on the pleasure principle, but on the reality principle, and, and, and he ends up with this book invoking the idea that science should replace erm, religion in, in this respect. In other words that science should establish insights into reality which make social order erm, both possible and well founded. Now in this particular book, Freud doesn't say very much about what these insights er, are. And er, as you'll see, probably next week's, I'm not going to get to this now, er, next week, or possible the week after, even, depending on how long it takes me to get there, I will suggest to you that the revolution now taking place in behavioural science, does suggest wh what they are, and that there are in fact some deeply countering intuitive insights, erm, into this whole issue, which have only emerged in the last few years. But er, this is just by way of an anticipation, the the general conclusion comes for instance, in this rather generalized book, and relatively short book, is that we ought to base variety and social order on science, and its insights, and certainly not on, on religion, and, and there he, there he leaves the question. However, he takes it up again, at much greater length, in his next book of nineteen thirty, Civilization and its Discontents. This book erm, begins, once again with the Hobbesian problem. The,wi with the, with the question of social order. Only in this book, it comes out even more clearly. Civilization, says Freud, is based on the suppression, repression and inhibition and frustration of the id people's individual er, drives, especially their sexual and aggressive drives, which are deeply compromised by having to live erm, in a civilized er, society. So er, in so far as human nature can be equated with the id, it seems to me, perfectly correct to say that Frob erm,Frob I was going to say, Freud, Freud was a Hobbesian thinker. Hobbes was a Freudian thinker, no. Freud was a Hobbesian thinker, erm, in the sense that the id, certainly was egoistic, anti-social and everything that Thomas Hobbes said about human nature, er, could apply to the id, that's perfectly true, and most people see this, and it's er it, it's a commonplace, particularly in the social science writing on Freud. And a lot of the book is concerned with developing this theme, and that I thought came out quite well in the classes, so I won't bother to repeat all that, because I thought we did that fairly thoroughly in, in the class. I don't want to waste your time. What people don't notice, however, and is so important, is that the id is not the only institution of a personality. As we saw, there is a second area of a personality, which psychoanalysis during the nineteen twenties and thirties was exploring actively and this is the ego. If we now look at the ego, as opposed to the id, then immediately we see that it is, it is emphatically not true to claim that Freud was a Hobbesian social thinker. Because the ego was not anti-social but pro-social, and we've already seen er two ways in which that is true. When we looked at group psychology and analysis of the ego, we saw that it was processes that occur in the ego, such as identification and projection, that make social groups possible, that bring about the social order of psychological groups. So that makes the ego pro-social, and in Future of an Illusion, we saw Freud arguing, that there were fundamental pro-social currents of feeling in the ego, in terms of the ego's wish fulfilment for, for example, a benevolent god, a divine justice and things like this. These are wishes of the ego, and they're gratified in the illusion of religion, but as we've also seen, Freud erm, notices even though he doesn't comment, that the illusion of religion is pro-social, in the sense that it maintains social order, systems and morality, and so on. So it seems to me that those sociologists, and there've been a lot of them, who have taken the view that Freud like some other social thinkers, like any of their kind, for example, was a, was simply a Hobbesian thinker, hadn't really read their Freud, or at least they hadn't read their Freud after about World War One. You could certainly take that view of Freud, and it would have been true, perhaps, if Freud had died er, before, er, nineteen eighteen, shall we say, or in fourteen. Then I think people would be justified in saying, well, Freud was essentially a Hobbesian social thinker. That was the time when Freud was exploring just the id. After World War One, as we've been seeing, he was exploring the ego, and his writing about the ego, in particular, group psychology and Future of an Illusion, show quite clearly that he saw the ego as a pro-social fact in the personality. Something that impelled the individual towards identifying with other people, performing groups, to accepting norms and values for these super-ego, which emerges during this time, and so on. So I think the, the statement Freud was a Hobbesian social thinker is just wrong. It's factually wrong, or at least it's factually wrong, if you were taking note of Freud's writings after World War One. If you look at all Freud's writings, I think what you have to say is, if you want to say that, you must make the qualification that the id is a Hobbesian erm, thing as it were, but the ego is a pro-social erm, part of the personality. Now here, it's useful to contrast the Hobbesian approach, which I call the pessimistic view of human nature, with one that I would call optimistic. Now the optimistic view of nature is the exact opposite. A good example of this, if we wanted to er, have somebody as it were, to counterbalance er, the English philosopher Hobbes, would be the French philosopher Jean Jacques Rousseau, writing a little bit later, not much actually seventeen twelve to seventeen seventy eight erm, about a century later. Jean Jacques Rousseau, famous French philosopher, whose view of human nature, was what I would call optimistic, in the sense that, by contrast to Thomas Hobbes, John Rousseau believed that human beings were basically good. He believed that human beings were born sociable, cooperative, altruistic, nice, civilized and that if, in later life, they showed anti-social selfish, criminal erm, egoistic tendencies, it was because of what happened to them after they were born. It was because of the effects of other people and society on them, that they were corrupted as it were. I once met a social worker, this was years ago, I I was gonna say, this couldn't happen today, but it probably could, erm, one hopes it couldn't happen today, but it probably would happen today, too. A social worker, who said to me, inside every, every, what she say so inside er, every juvenile delinquent, there's a little Leonardo da Vinci trying to get out. Well, if you believe that, I think you'll believe anything. But erm, that's the idea, you see, that these kids, er well, you know, they may be delinquent, and do lots of nasty things, but it's only the way they've been treated by society. Basically, human nature is good. This was, this is what I call an optimistic view, and this was Rousseau's view of human nature, that basically people were good, and er, cooperative, and it was the bad things in human nature that had to be explained, not the good. The good was natural. But the bad things, and of course, Rousseau's solution to the problem of order was quite different from Hobbes'. Hobbes' solution was, order must be imposed on a recalcitrant human nature, to make society possible, Rousseau's theory was, if only people could be liberated from the things that makes them selfish, selfish and anti-social, they would come together in a natural social contract, where individuals would spontaneously give up their freedom, in order to gain the benefits of social cooperation, and Rousseau's view was, if only people were, were fully rational, and could free themselves from the unfortunate effects of, of er civilization, they would enter into a state of erm, perfect society in which they could er, associate er without the, the necessity of things like the state or or whatever. Very very optimistic view of human nature. Later, erm, this was developed by people like Marx, who emphasized the ec economic role, erm, the e economic aspect of erm, of er, the ill effects of civilization. But basically the idea, erm, is I think well represented by er, by Rousseau, and it's a view that has been very influential, for instance, in modern education, and some people would say it explains the disaster that erm th that some people think er modern education is. Now, the these two views of human nature, the pessimistic, as I'm calling it, and the optimistic lead to two different views of the child, as I've already implied. The Rousseau view of the child, is one where children are basically er, noble savages. Are born free, but everywhere in the chain, as to quote a famous phrase from Rousseau, the kind of noble savage view of the child. This regards the child as not in need of socialization or control, but basically er, good in its own right. In the best example, in modern education, is that er, progressive school, what's the school, Summer Hill or the school where the kids are allowed to do absolutely everything they like. Erm, very revealing. Erm, er, if you, if you know anything about the kind of thing that actually goes on er, it's nothing like the it's supposed to be. But that was the, that was the theory that it was founded on. That, that, you know, if you give children complete freedom, they will, they will know, as it were,wh what's best for them, you don't need any, any rules, or anything. Or at least er, not any rules they don't impose on themselves. So that's the, that's the, there's an optimistic view of, of, of the child. The pessimist, the Hobbesian thinkers, have a pessimistic view of the child. They see the child as basically a, a little animal, a wild animal, who has to be tamed, and er, disciplined and controlled by er, various means, and er, this is the, I think the view of the child that was more popular in British education, at least traditional education, which erm, for the public schools of Eton, which in this country was based on er, on er brutality, I think there's the only word you can call it. Certainly, I'd never erm, forgiven er people for beatings I got at school. I mean there's downright brutality, and, and, and deserved to be called nothing else. But anyway, the idea that the brutality is er justified, and you have to beat the hell out of little kids because er, if you don't you won't civilize them. This goes, I think you can see, with the pessimistic view, the Hobbesian view, that for civilization order has to be, has to be imposed. Well, where does Freud stand in all this? You, seems to me that, if you think about it, the Freudian view is what I would like to call a realistic one. Because just as I was saying, that Freud's view was that, okay, there's the id and that may be Hobbesian, but there's also the ego, which if you like is, is more kind of Rousseauness it's pro-social, and therefore I would say Freud is not a pessimistic, or an optimistic social thinker, but something in between. What I would call a realistic social thinker, namely, somebody who saw there is good and bad in human nature. Freud didn't go to one extreme or the other, he didn't go to the Hobbes extreme and say there is no good in us you know, we're just anti-social egoists, although he did know that was true of the id. Nor did he go to the Rousseau extreme, saying that we're basically noble savages. But he did recognize that there was strong pro-social currents in the, in the ego, and the resulting view, I think, is what I would call a realistic view of human nature. Which I think any sensible person ought to come to, which is, that human beings are neither basically bad, evil, and anti-social, no more are they basically good, altruistic and cooperative. They're a mixture of both. Sometimes, people can be evil, egoistic, destructive and aggressive, and think only of themselves as we know to our cost, and as we see all around us in the world, from time to time. But at other times, as we also know, people can be remarkably altruistic and committed to others. You've only got to think of the career of erm, Audrey Hepburn who died today, or yesterday, whenever it was. Well, she's a shining example of that. The Audrey Hepburns in this world, may not be as numerous, unfortunately, as the people running around in Bosnia, or er Somalia, but they do exist, and you have to see that there are both of these sides of human nature. People can be very good, they can also be very bad. It seems to me the Freudian view takes both into account. Furthermore, it doesn't just take both into account in terms of some vague philosophical waffle, you know, that anybody could come to, sitting on a bar stool, after they've had enough er, dry martinis, you know as people sometimes good, people sometimes bad. I mean that, this kind of, that, that, that's a cliche. I mean, the Freudian insight is a much deeper one. It says the personality is structured in such a way that there is an egoistic anti-social area, the id. That there is another pro-social erm, constituent, the ego, and furthermore, these are different, and different things occur in each, and different processes occur. For example, the pro-social erm, factors mobilize projection and identification, and the anti- social ones are to do with the instinctual drives, and, and, and so on . So it, it, it's a, it goes much beyond merely a kind of er, cliche, of saying, all people can be sometimes good or people can be sometimes bad, and it tells you about the specific way in which this th this comes about. An example, er, of what I'm talking about, which I think shows this very nicely, and is, is something I wanted to mention, because it's important in itself, is the shifts in Freud's views on anxiety. As we saw, in the early phase of psychoanalysis, before World War One, when it was dominated by the view of Freud and in the eighteen nineties, and when psychoanalysis was mainly id analysis, and concerned with the unconscious, Freud took the view of anxiety as a pathological transformation of the libido. The libido was then regarded as a kind of emotional torrent, that if it was frustrated underwent a pathological transformation into anxiety. Er, I think I mentioned this, I hope I did, pretty sure I did. After World War One, in the second phase of the psychoanalysis, when he was concerned with the analysis of ego, anxiety became a sense of danger in the ego, and the ego felt anxiety when it was threatened, and as a result, there was three sorts of anxiety neurotic anxiety, when the ego was threatened by the drives of the id moral anxiety, when it was threatened by punishment from the super ego, and realistic anxiety, when it was threatened by dangers from the outside world. Some early analysts, though not Freud, I, I emphasize, but some of his followers, took the view that anxiety, for example, in children, was pathological, and they, that generation of analysts tried to bring up their children to be free of anxiety, and, and then, you still get this in a lot of popular child psychology today, the idea that anxiety is always bad and always wrong. Anna Freud writing many years later in her classic book, erm, Normality of Pathology in Childhood, erm, candidly admits that er, the first generation of analysts was wrong about this, and she, she, she, she candidly says that the analytic profession changed its view, although Freud never did. Freud always regarded anxiety as normal, but the erm, many of his colleagues didn't, and, and Anna Freud erm admits that er, experience proved that er, her father's original view turned out to be, turned out to be the right one. And she says that attempts to free children of anxiety proved to be emissary. The reason is that erm, if the child ceases to be afraid, for example, of the parents, or of outside, of outside discipline or control, it instead becomes anxious and terrified of its own instinctual drives which it can't control. An anxiety appears to be a permanent fixture in human mental life, it's not one that you can, you can live without. Of course, if you take the Freudian view of anxiety as a danger signal in the, in the ego, that, that makes sense. And Anna Freud's conclusion is, that all children will experience anxiety, but what they experience anxiety about will, will vary, and clearly the best thing is that they experience anxiety about things that are important and are real, rather than anxiety about things that are unimportant and unreal. But in general, she admits that there was, there proved to be no way of freeing the child from anxiety. So anxiety would be, you see, would be something that points out what I'm calling this realistic view of human nature. That the, the other point to be made about the pessimistic and optimistic theories is, they, because they're extremely elusive, they can easily suggest the idea of utopias, and you get two different sorts of utopias. The pessimistic thing was, the Hobbesians always looked back to the past, some golden age of order in the past, you know, when, when people knew what to do and er, and er, things were right as it were, and th they tend to want to restore some ideal state of order and authority that existed in the past, which was much better than now, because civilization has gone to the dogs, and been corrupted and so on . And they look back, and er, these pessimistic views are usually reactionary. Politically, they're usually reactionary. The pessimists want to go back. I mean effectively, I always wanted to go back to the middle ages er, with, with the history books of English society. English society, of course didn't work out that way. The realis the opt optimistic theories, on the other hand, also had their utopias, but they look forward. For the, for the optimists, the, the utopia is, is always in the, in the future, and these people er, tend to be revolutionaries. They tend to say we must overthrow the existing social order and establish a new just social order, when human beings will be liberated from the corrupting erm, alienating er forces, that er, make them bad, and everything will be, everything will be okay. The Freudian realistic view it seems to me, couldn't allow you to draw either conclusion, you couldn't, neither conclude, that things were better in the past and therefore we ou ought to go back to the golden age, nor, could you conclude that things will ever be any better in the future. Anxiety for example, is something that human beings will always experience, and to think that you can free them from anxiety in some future utopia, or go back to some ordered erm, ideal state in the past, where everyone was so secure, that they would never feel anxiety, is just a myth according to Freud. Freud's view is a realistic one of human nature, which says that people will experience anxiety and frustration and er, all kinds of erm, feelings that they may not want to have. But they will experience those feelings, because human nature is not at either of these extreme points, it's neither erm, perfectly good, nor perfectly bad, it's a, it's a mixture of both, and consequently, although you can improve the world, for it doesn't deny you can improve the world, or make it worse, of course. To think that you could bring about a utopia, and perfect human nature in one way or another, is really a wildly er, optimistic and er, is in itself, er, some kind of illusion. Well, at that point I will end what I have to say for today, and er, carry on with this next week. Thank you very much Yes, yes, you can, can catch me now. Hobbesian theory being Yes, that's right, Yes, well, commiserations Er, no, it's a bit tough, I suppose You could bring some evolutionary insight to it. Oh yes, oh yes yes, that's right Oh yeah Are you keeping that sort of thing that that in some ways could be considered to be a system. If I let it run away with me, it might, you know tie it up I mean, if you like me to leave your paper, to write to one, I'll be quite pleased to look at it Okay, alright, if you want to discuss it with me. Okay. I mean if you want do a paper for this group, on, you know, on the sociological periods of evolution, and, and how they look from our perspective. You could substitute it, perhaps for that one. Yeah, okay, okay well look, Have a think about it yeah, okay. if, if you want to do a version of it first, I think we, we, we'll appreciate it very much. Okay, fine, okay yes. in order to get, because I hesitate to give you more work to do, you got enough work. fine. But, think about it, it could be interesting. Yeah, okay, sure, fine. We'll have words about it. Thank you. come on in. Now, I have some good news for you, and you could do with some good news, couldn't you? Yes. Least, I hope it's good news, from what you said last night, I think it would be good news. I have got you a computer, one of these would you like one of those? I'd love one of those. Right, we can get you one. I'll tell you what's happened. The thing is, the school has just launched a, a new programme to lend portable computers to graduate students, okay? Now, we've got one in this department, like this, and er, one of our graduate students was very interested in it, and since she was just finishing her P H D the in some of the ways, some of the most erm, outspoken erm, persons for this, but I'm certainly not alone. There's a growing body now, of people who are thinking along similar lines, and er, so it's, it, it's, I think you'd be unwise to wipe this off just, just as my eccen eccentricity. I mean, it may be that. Look, we're gonna have to stop. we can carry on with this next week, as, as you see, we've touched on a big topic, so we'll, we'll leave it to you to introduce next week's discussion, whatever way you think fit, erm, that raises other issues which you want to talk about. Okay. Thanks very much. And well done that was an excellent a little contradictory. Erm, I read another erm, book on believing this. Yeah, fine. Er, I have an example of Right. Could be, certainly quite old, erm, and a socialist, of course. Yeah. You ought to point out. Right. Not completely true. Ah, let me just say what leaders of peacetime Margaret was after early life was that a cold mother who was erm, full of personality People of London biography of the leader of the Conservative, because at least half the book is about That's where it belongs. Erm. at least not fully in command of ourselves, let alone the social and political world around us. It's certainly wrong though,I think erm, there was erm, the question Mm. Er, but I do believe that made very important the reason, er, the first question is and people weren't reading about that. Erm, Well Well done, that was absolutely first rate, I mean erm, it was a difficult er, task you had, especially as the book wasn't in the library, of which I am deeply apologetic, because I thought it was, and er, I thought you er, you coped with a very difficult assignment extremely well, and I think you can have an extra and I'm sure everyone else thinks so too. Er, as I have said, I haven't done Woodrow Wilson before in the past, so, so it was an experiment, and erm, I must admit,yo you rose to the occasion excellently. The choice of literature, as you realize was meant to be contrasting, and I put book down as an example of what I thought was the worst possible, er, use of use of psychoanalysis, kind of gutter journalism, erm and which you didn't look at, and it's, it's no criticism of you erm, because er, you had your work cut out with what you did do, but the reason I put down Gandhi's Truth, if anybody's ever read that, have they? This is the exact opposite from , because it's erm, it idealizes Gandhi. It kind of builds Gandhi up into a great er figure, as it were, ignoring his feet of clay, erm, which he definitely had. So erm,book on which is kind of a character association by a pop cycle analysis and Gan erm, book on Gandhi, which is using cycle analysis, of, of, of, of tremendous contrast. And er, er, the question is of course, where does Freud's book on Woodrow Wilson belong? Does it belong in the kind of erm, camp or not? Well, erm, what do other people think? But isn't, isn't that the quote at the beginning of your book, er, unsigned quote, erm, doesn't that say something about how, how, you know, long aired radio biography of someone is very political or sort of er, disregard all of the important things they really done, and I don't know, I don't know if it's er, pertinent erm, but obviously, in Freud, Freud wanted to set out to criticize Wilson erm, so he, you know, he went in with it. I mean, he was Yes. obviously going to buck out of the He was. biographical allegiance which made him look bad. Yes. Erm, and er, on other hand he got everything, got his own book out biography Of course, I think if, if, if Freud were here, he would defend himself, by saying I was quite open about my prejudice against Wilson at the beginning of the book, as reminds us, Freud says quite clearly, how he felt about all this. But I think Freud would have also gone on to say that he had very good reason for resenting Wilson, because he blamed Wilson personally for the unjust peace, after er Versailles, but er, was indirectly, many people would argue, going to lead to the Second World War, and er, so Freud's defence I think would be, this man really was responsible. Because after all, the situation in my, I don't know, I mean, I don't know how well you know your modern history. I'm not certain, I'm not a great expert on it, but erm, the situation seems to be, that after the First World War, the central power was Germany and Austria, were defeated. Er, France, er was, er battle ravaged and its economy in ruins. This country was bankrupt, and had to borrow money from the United States of America to keep going, and er, Russia had just had a revolution and was still in chaos. So the United States was really the only world power erm, erm, as were able to do anything. In, in some ways, the situation you know, was a bit like, like what it is now, since the collapse of the Soviet Union, only more so, I would say, because the, the other powers were more, were even more prostrate than is, is, is the situation today. So for a while, the President of the United States effectively had world power, there was no other power in the world who could stand up to the U S, er, after, after, World War One for one argument anyway, and I think Freud's er, defence disposition would be, Woodrow Wilson was the man who came to Europe, saying he would bring a just peace for all, and went away leaving a total mess, and, and, Freud's er argument in his book is, told us was, well, the mess er, was really Wilson's own doing, and if it was his doing, what was it in his character that allowed him to er,si to on some Lloyd George, who bullied him into getting most of what they wanted. So, that would be Freud's defence, now, I suppose you would have to know a lot more about modern history, to, to know, if this was really true or not, but erm, the the er, question that Freud was really asking himself, really was, why did Wilson let us down, because Freud admits that he regarded Wilson, when he came to Europe as a saviour. You know, here, here was somebody coming from outside Europe who would bring, you know, peace and justice for all. Let's hope, I quoted the American Constitution correctly, did I? Erm, you know, perhaps the kind of way people look on President today. You know, which is only day one of his inauguration. We'll see what happens to him, President . But erm, that would be for its, for its er,defence, I suppose. Is it fallible I mean how do, how do modern America let's ask er and erm, er and . How do modern Americans see Woodrow Wilson? Erm What's your image of him? er, I don't know, I think he forgot you know, Yeah I don't, I don't I remembered him having in my school library Mm. he was regarded as a very very smart man Mm. and er, one of our most intellectual presidents. Yeah. And I don't think, I don't think most people considered him vulnerable, very vulnerable. I mean, they know that working Yeah. But I don't think most people, er, would necessarily consider it than now on the European side, they might consider . Erm, but you know, but I think they did. I think it marks the beginning of the United States their first real world power. So I think that's, that's how he was I see. Mm. So people don't blame him for the consequences of Versailles? I don't think so. No, no. To answer my own question, I did. I mean, I think Yeah. No, that's true, that's true. What about er, European history, who's studied this period in modern history at school? Have you? Yes. What question do you go to Woodrow Wilson? frankly, he was a I see. No. everything he wants. But the things is, he wanted to a lot of things about came up like in the middle Mm. ages before the war you more you think about it, Mm. Yes. I see, yes. Anyone else got a view on this? He was a very odd man, though Mm. as Freud said, that at fourteen adult life Good one, doc, yes, And erm, I mean er, the last eighteen months of his presidency he erm, settled with Mrs Wilson because he would be incapable Yeah, the, of course, er, Freud had one advantage here, and that was Bullitt. Erm, as we know, Bullitt was a member of the delegation and an intimate of, of Wilson, so the book is er co- authored, so in a sense we should know as we're paying for, for all of it, because er, obviously, he relied on Bullitt to give him all this biographical information, and er, consequently what you see Freud doing in this in this book is, is er trawling through, as it were, the things that Bullitt told him, that, that Bullitt had found out, to erm, draw a kind of psy psychoanalytic portrait of Woodrow Wilson, that erm, tried to explain his problem, why did he not deliver the goods as it were . And the if you put the character of Woodrow Wilson aside, the, the central theme which comes out of this book, which is I think why it's important, worth reading certainly the introduction is worth reading. There is a three or four page brief introduction er, to the book, which is presumably by Freud himself, because it's about psychoanalysis, and I don't think Bullitt could have written it. Erm, what's worth reading about that, and it comes out strongly in the introduction, is that this is a kind of case stu study of a particular kind of person. Er, er, a man who grows up under the shadow of his father, as it were. So it's quite an interesting, whatever you think about Woodrow Wilson in the First World War is quite a interesting book, in drawing a character study of the kind of person who Freud must have seen many times in his practice. The man who grows up idealizing his father, and whose relationship with his father is a largely passive one. So he tends to regard his father as a kind of ideal he can never equal, and tends if anything to identify with er, with his own mother, and play a kind of passive role to his, to his father. And this is how Freud explains Wilson's inability to stand up to the other men, like Woodrow, like Cle Clements or Lloyd George, who were rather aggressive, and er, were, were kind of pushing all the time, what they could out of the, out of the peace settlement, and what, er the book shows, is that Woodrow Wilson would have confrontations with them and say a lot of fine words, and then the next day, he would, he would give it all away, as it were, he would, he would be ill or he'll backtrack, or when the actual agreements came to be signed, he, he wouldn't do what he said he would, er,wh what he did. So Freud has to explain this weakness of Wilson, in the face of erm, these much more dominant aggressive men he was up against in these very hard er hitting negotiations, about what to do about the world after, after World War One. So, Freud's view is that he was, this passive erm nature of, of, of, retiring er nature of, of Woodrow Wilson, which explains his inte intellectuality as says, erm, Wilson was a very intellectual man. He had a great fondness for speeches and oratory. Apparently, in his childhood, he'd give speeches to an empty barn, er, had, would stand in the, in the family barn, erm, giving lectures to the hay, you know, and he, he, he loved this, and he, he was, he had a great erm sense of grandiloquent language and, Freud and Bullitt's interpretation is that, Woodrow Wilson, in a sense, was a typical politician. Very good at words, not so good at, at, at actions and actually delivering the goods as it were So, why, why do you ? Well, er I asked this, because erm, when I was having my house it came up, and I and I pointed out to her th the astonishing anomaly, I said, look erm, everybody knows about manuscript, Ernest and his biography of Freud mentions it and says he read it and reports rather well of it, actually, was really quite impressed with it. I said knew about it, erm, you must have known about it, erm, that standard edition of the complete psychological works of Freud, that's its title, and you're one of the editors, one of the editors, I said, there's no evidence that you ever intended to include this book in it, even though, you know, I understand that it couldn't be published as long as Woodrow Wilson's family was still alive, but erm, you know, why wasn't it published in the standard edition? And said I don't know. Now, she could have been lying. I don't think she would have told me a, a lie. When I asked her things like that, she didn't want to tell me on other occasions, she said I know that I can't tell you. Er, she was an honest person. I think that's what she would have said. If, if, if that had been the case, she'd say, oh, I do know, but I'm afraid I can't tell you. When she said, I don't know, I think she was telling me the truth, she didn't know. Erm, the fact is, she didn't play a dominant part in the standard tradition, although she was one of the editors, of course. Er, she was mainly one of the editors because she was erm, her father's, you know she even inherited her father's estate. So, so that was in her share of the management . I don't think she'd taken erm prominent role in the day to day planning of the standard edition, this was done by erm, calculable spreadsheet. So erm, I think when she said she didn't know, er, she was telling the truth, and when asked her if she could explain to me, the very point that just asked me, again she said she, she couldn't explain, she had, she she'd agreed, agreed it was a paradox, that she didn't really know erm, why the book had never been published, or until nineteen sixty seven erm note, note that it, that it had been taken. Erm, my only view is that, er, the reason is that, by the time it saw the light of day, because remember, the manuscript was in the, the manuscript was physically in the possession of the Bullitt family not the Freud family. Erm, when the Bullitt family sought it to published it, it was published, but by that time, the kind of changes that I talked about at the beginning of my lectures, had already occurred in psychoanalysis. Psychoanalysis had evolved into a highly therapeutic undertaking, which was very very and institutionalized for therapy, and the black books had already been blackened, as it were. People were already tending to ignore these very works we're looking at,theomonoism we'll be looking at next week, gonna tell us about that, aren't you . Yes. Another very black book, er, Civilization Discon these kind of books were, er, generally er, at, at er best ignored, at worst disparaged, by the psychoanalytic establishment. So when this book on, on Woodrow Wilson appeared, I mean, it gets even blacker. Er, particularly since it was only half right, or you couldn't exactly tell which half, not very clearly, so if it's half by Freud, and er, it was a book erm, on erm, a controversial figure arguing over very controversial pieces, and I think the psychoanalytic study didn't want to have anything to do with it, and er, er, one of the reviews of the psychoanalytic journal that said that this is the kind of book that gets psychoanalysis a bad name. And er, on the other side, the, the people interested in it in the social sciences, erm, didn't particularly like it, because, at that time, they were heavily dominated by er, Marxist and people on the left. I mean, I myself, for instance, after I'd published my first book on psychoanalysis in nineteen eighty was summoned to the House of Commons by and given a dinner, in the House of Commons Restaurant, which isn't very good actually, least it wasn't then, and effectively I was told by this great man was, noticed, had a very high opinion of his own ego, that erm, you know the left was in charge of psychoanalysis in this country, and had better conform or shut up. My views were not politically correct. And would I please stop publishing on psychoanalysis and leave it to my elders and betters. Like . So I er, I politely told him what he could do with that, well, I was eating his dinner and I couldn't be too rude to him, but erm, you know, when er when, when confronted, I don't give ground over that kind of thing. I said, you know, I'd every right to resume my own research, erm, if the Labour Party thought it owned psychoanalysis, I'm afraid I have, have to differ. So we, we parted on that note. But erm, the people like and the left, didn't like the book either, because it didn't tell their particular interpretation, as kind of left Marxist er, interpretation as someone has it, was so popular at the time. And so the book was just kind of, ignored I think, and left standing, and now it's out of print, and we've discovered this week, it's not even in the university library. Erm, it must have vanished, there was a copy there. Er, so it's, it, it's one of these strangely anomalous works, it, it's, it has spawned, I must admit, some very unfortunate literature, and I think 's own book is the worst example, but it's not the only one. There's a whole area of psycho-history. Has anybody read about psycho-history? There's a whole school of psycho- history mainly in the United States, not many followers here, and er, I must admit, I, I used to have er a class on psycho-history on this course, and I dropped it, and the reason was, I think students didn't find it very satisfactory, and the literature was of such poor quality. It really was er of the sort, you know, if Cleopatra's nose had been half an inch longer, history would have all been different, you know, that, that kind of trivia. Erm I think you can see that the problem with this kind of biographical approach to history is it can degenerate into trivia. Of the kind that himself wrote of . Which I think is, er, is one of the worst examples of trivial. Because, because clearly, you can see that in the social sciences, there is a big problem. If you think that individual people have a big role in history, like and Woodrow Wilson, I doubt if he did, I mean everybody would admit that these were important figures obviously, but the question is, how important were they, compared with social, political and economic factors, possibly beyond their control? I mean this is the big issue, isn't it? I thought, like, I mean, isn't the basic idea of psychoanalysis is that, you know that, that these people are repressing something and that's studying, and the question is how well, can you arrive at what they were repressing, by just sort of secondhand, you know, I mean Mm. wouldn't you, I mean, not as so best way to figure out what they were repressing, but just, I mean wouldn't you need to really have the whole life in front of you You would. to figure out? I mean, we urgently certainly we can psychoanalyse a group, you know, the group psy the group psychology, because we all understand how groups act, and we can say, oh, yes groups act like that, you do act like that, that makes sense and that can prove it, you know. But with, with a man, I mean, you really need to have every single incident in his life, to, to really know what That is absolutely true. Yes, this is another big problem I think you put that very well, that people forget, of course, that in clinical psychoan analysis the analyst has a vast amount of data, because the patient is going five times a week, or in Freud's case, six times a week, for fifty minutes every day, six days a week, nine months of the year, often for several years and er, the, the sheer amount of data that the analyst gets, is absolutely immense. I mean, I can well recall in my own analysis with , of course, for the first six months she said nothing, and I used to get very frustrated, and say, look, what do you think of this? What's your interpretation, she would say, oh, we don't know enough yet. She said I'm not sure. We'll have to wait and see. And for about six months, I didn't get anything. When interpretations were offered to me, she said so and so, and I said, why, and then she was ready. She said there was this female, that the other thing, and there was a whole long list of things that pointed to this interpretation, and it was all part of a, as you say a great mass of data, that erm, is, is quite mind-bogglingly large, if you actually erm, see it in words. Erm, it's very difficult, of course, to er, well it's impossible actually, to turn that into er written accounts. Because of course if you were to tape record analytic sessions, it would change that nature of the, of the analysis. And er, one of the big scientific problems with psychoanalysis is that privacy and confidentiality are prominent, as obviously in other areas of science, you can er, the demonstration has to be in public, as it were . I mean, other people can do the experiment or repeat it. Trouble with an individual psychoanalysis, it can never be. So one of the big problems with an historical figure, is that erm, you don't even have that much data to go on, the data you have is gonna inevitably be, be selective and limited. Again I think if Freud and Bullitt were here today, they'd say, well look we did, in fact, have quite a lot of data, because I, Bullitt knew Wilson intimately for several years and worked with him, and er, Freud had rarely the stuff in erm, in all papers of Woodrow Wilson in the library of Congress or wherever they were, and he had a great deal of data. But even so, 's point is a good one, that there isn't, there's seldom if ever enough this is a small problem in psychoanalysis, I myself hope to put right to some extent, and some of you may live long enough to see this happen, I hope you will. Er, that's why I'll tell you all, I even tell young people. There's no point in telling old people, because they'd be dead. But erm, there are one or two interesting exceptions to this, and one exception is myself, because er, I started analyzing myself through maybe to nineteen sixty nine, and with one or two small exceptions, like when I was being analyzed by and I didn't like it, with any doubt, my entire analysis was being written down. Erm, I guess now in fact, erm er, last few years is all er, is all er entered in data on computer. And it's my intention to keep up this analysis, er, for as long as it takes, probably to the end of my life. And that er, on the centenary of my birth, which will fall in two thousand and forty six, my heirs and executors will be free to er, release it to the world, on condition, however, that it's published complete and unexpurgated and unedited. In other words, if you're gonna have personal , you're gonna, it, you can't allow somebody to edit us out, as it were. And er, if and when it's published, there will be millions of words, I mean there are now, and I don't how large it is now, it's impossible to tell how large, erm, but just a couple of years, for example, amounts to over a quarter of a million words, so if you run that back to nineteen sixty nine, you see it is going to be one of the largest books ever written. And it maybe, if it's ever published, while we're still here in two thousand and forty six, and my executors do as I hope they will, erm, you know, it will be a book alongside Samuel Pepys, and Casanova and Saint Augustine, it's that length. My guess it's as least long as Samuel Pepys' diary, or will be. And I hope that, er, you know, this, all this data will be published, and people will be able to see just what the complete data is. And if that's the case, then in the middle of the next century, more will be known about me, than has ever been known about any other human being. Because I have faithfully stuck to the fundamental rule of psychoanalysis. I have not held back anything. It's all true and it's all right. Of course, my own reputation will be the first victim of this. I will be universally despised. But that's okay, I mean I'm not particularly, I'm not so impressed with the human race that I, I, I think much of their opinion of me anyway. But erm, the great pity of course is, that Freud didn't do this. It's, I mean, Freud we know, did do a certain analysis. My guess is, he must have written an account. It's a great pity he didn't preserve any detail, and he looked, er, like all his other papers had been left in the library of Congress until two thousand and twenty five, and then they will all become public. Erm, that would have been er, really worth knowing . But as I've said, it will, it will be preserved in my case. Erm, it's my great contribution to science, unfortunately I shall be long dead, and many of yo some of you may, I don't know how many of you will still be alive in two thousand and forty six, but if you are, you may see this day. I won't of course. But it's a, it's a problem that, that you've put your finger on, and this is why I personally think that a lot of this literature is of such a poor quality. And certainly this stuff, I mean, when a person's still alive, how can you possibly know enough? You see, Woodrow Wilson was dead, Bullitt had access to a lot of private material that er, perhaps there's still,I don't know whether it's ever been published. And of course, Bullitt had directly observed the man and interacted with him during the critical time at, at the Versailles conference. And the whole book is really about er the Versailles conference in a way, isn't it, and about why he behaved the way he did at the time. So there's a kind of critical period here, that we have got a lot of information about. And in a sense, the book is very one dimensional in that it follows just this one aspect of Woodrow Wilson's character, the critical one. Now of course, in a, in a complete psychoanalysis, if Woodrow Wilson had been going for analysis, then all kinds of other aspects of his life and personality would have opened up. And you wouldn't get this concentration on one, this one kind of character defect, which er, admittedly, is a, is a problem with the book and, and can make it look as if it is a kind of character assassination. character assassination of Wilson? Erm, yes, perhaps. Mm. Yes, but Freud does er justify this er meaning, that this is why to form a psychological That's Because of his limitations I was gonna further say that erm, you know, beside lack of information itself,information of repression, information into someone's life I mean, repression necessarily I mean the, the thing that someone does in their lifetime might necessarily strange and distracted, and the purpose of the thing Well, yes, that, that's true but I think the, er, by the nineteen twenties, when Freud was writing this book, was it nineteen twenty nine, twenty eight, twenty nine, Er, well,certainly, yes. They started it, yes. Right, so they, sorry, the early nineteen thirties, when they started it. By that time, Freud certainly had moved on a bit, from the earlier, perhaps rather narrow concentration on the repression and he was moving into the second er era of psycho psychoanalysis when there was an emphasis more on the total personality on the ego and its mechanisms of defence, to quote a title of a famous book by , and I think this is more the kind of thing that Freud is doing in this book, where you, you see not just the repressions in the unconscious, but the whole personality, and you understand it, in terms of its various defensive erm, structures, and the way which it carried out its repression. In other words, you concentrate not just on what's repressed in id, but on the structure of the ego as well, and the superego, and the course of nature part of it comes out in the book as told us that Woodrow Wilson had a tremendous superego in the form of his identification with his father, who he further identified with God, I mean, if I come over very critical indeed, and therefore, his own ego was identified with Jesus Christ. And this, for example, I mean, whether we believe this or not, this Freud says, or thinks, explains why Wilson could come to Europe as a saviour, the saviour of mankind, but then failed to deliver the goods, because of the passive nature of his identification, you know, Jesus got crucified. Which was a pretty passive thing to do, in some ways, erm, and similarly, you could say Woodrow Wilson ended up crucified by the, by the allies. A certain fourteen points for cruci everybody must have that . And, erm, so this, it was, in a sense it was not so much as what was repressed in his ears, the structure of his ego that led to this unfortunate consequence. Does that answer your So it's part of this larger view of psychoanalysis that was emerging in the thirties. Where you could have more of a character study, rather than just the kind of erm, capping the unconscious, as it were Since like what you say, psychoanalysis was now, I mean, is it mostly centred on the ego? I mean, one , since you can't go if you don't Mm. would you say that, you know, in modern psychoanalysis presumably just not the, like the structure of the ego, and then they know Wh what, well,I, I wouldn't say just looking similar, I would say additionally looking, but, but in the, in the early days the erm, and I'll be saying something about this in the, in the lectures,bu but just briefly, that you could you could say there were phases in psychoanalysis, the early days, before both of us were born you were here, the, the aim when the method was , the aim was to release the unconscious, bring it to the surface, and that was regarded as more or less enough. Analyses in those days were short by modern standards. There's an example in my book, with one that only lasted six weeks, for example, which is astonishing by modern standards. After World War One, and especially by the nineteen thirties, the, the purview of psychoanalysis, as it were, had, had enlarged to include the ego, as we saw, and so, so what happened then was, the structure of the ego was explored and not just the repressions. In other words, it was the agencies that carried out the repressions that were analyzed, as well as the repressions themselves. This is a much more like a, a kind of total dissection of the personality. It means that psychoanalysis takes a lot longer, because you are looking at defences and ego as well as at, at the . You get a much more complete picture. Analogy I used in my book, was actually suggested to me by , although this is a ana a kind of metaphor that, that her father was very fond of. Erm, was with archaeology. But in the nineteenth century, archaeology was a kind of treasure-troving erm, explorers, a kind of raid on, on the very past, to discover the treasure. That's what psychoanalysis was like in its first days. We raided the unconscious, as it were, to, to liberate the repressed and, and, and understand what was in that. Modern archaeology is much more scientific and it's, it tends to excavate entire layers, layer, by layer and every little thing is relevant, you know, they, the little pot shard, erm, even bits of excrement, apparently are very interesting to archaeologists, because they're sure people were eating, and things like this, er, you know, remnants of fire was charcoal, everything. All of this is, is just good as well as bits of gold and er and, and you know metal objects, that have always traditionally been interesting to archaeologists. And that's rather like modern analysis, everything is interesting. It's not just what is repressed, it's the structures of the ego that bring about these repressions, the identifications and so on. So it's a more complete er picture, of, of, of the personality, and of course it lends itself to this kind of historical portraiture . Because as says, er, the unconscious is, as a sense, is always hidden, so how do you possibly find out about the unconscious of historical figures that are dead and gone? Well, the answer is with very very great difficulty. But if you were looking at their egos as well, er their whole personality had its defence disrupted, then of course , you may be able to see a bit more, because you are now looking at areas which are co both conscious and manifest themselves in all kinds of different ways. Does that answer your, your point? Yeah, I suppose I was thinking, I, I always get mixed up when you say psychoanalysis Mm. I just want to you know modern days was just confusing me and er, all this sort of thing. Whereas I think it easy, you know sometimes I get confused about what's what Right. So, when, when I talk about psychoanalysis in this course, I mean mainly Freudian classical, because it's Freud's writings we're looking at. Admittedly, another aspect of the whole thing, as you rightly say, is that there's been a burgeoning and a lot of different schools, and of course different schools give emphasis to different, different kinds of things. And that's a further complicating factor, of course. Well, it's just coming up to eleven o'clock, who haven't we heard from, er, right, you've been very very quiet there. There. Have you got anything, any comments you want to say about this? I mean, I didn't read the book. No. No. Er, I must admit I point Freud makes,slightly arrogant erm, I mean it, he's, he's, he's a Yeah. Mm. His father's you know there's peace conference in nineteen eighteen Yeah. Did you think that, that, that, that their approach was arrogant and their, the, the affect was trivializing? Well, not really, no. that weren't the impression that I got. The actual book, arise that book anyhow, mm. But it's certainly er, certainly a valid question. Yeah. Woodrow Wilson Well, that's what Freud also subject on. But I know that such a talented writer. You know, I mean, I was convinced that there was no such thing as religion after I'd read the book I mean, anything I read about, I immediately say, oh yes, of course that's true, you know. So. Well, next week, will be telling us about another one of these very controversial books, won't you? Yes. In which we shall be looking at, er another famous figure, but, but, er an even more remote and one, some people might say,mytho mythological one, namely Moses. So having done Woodrow Wilson this week, we will do Moses, next week. We'll look forward to that. Is anybody Jewish, by the way? Right. Well, one year, I must admit, somebody in the class stormed out. The person started to read their paper on Moses, and I thought she was doing a good job of it, this guy suddenly got up and said, I'm Jewish, I'm not listening to any more of this, and stormed out. Oh, I don't see that. Erm, what is the most, Right. Er, that is in,that is in er, Hampstead,. If you wanna get there I'm just the easiest way to do it, is to take the underground to Finchley Road Station Finchley Road Station. Mhm. And when you come out of Finchley Road Station, it's in a place called . I may be able to give you a thing about it actually, if I've still got one. You can visit it, it's open it's best to phone up and find out when they're open, because they're not open every day. And they interesting? Well, there's I mean it's interesting, erm, it's Freud's you know, collection of, of classical and antique . They, they give the impression that the house is the way it was when he lived there, but it's not quite true, actually, it was earlier on. Erm, it's, it's certainly a lot smarter than could remember when lived there. Erm, and now let's see I used to have a file on this, but I might have passed it or given all the stuff away Is it? Yeah, it probably is. Yes, that's, that's the kind of place you would find it. Erm, that is the kind of place you would Alright. Well, if you suddenly find it, you know Er, don't despair, I haven't finished yet, erm Ah, here we are, Freud I knew I had it, I knew I had it. They used to write to me quite regularly Here you are. Great. Thank you. As I said, check the opening hours, they've probably changed. Okay. That tells you where it is, and the phone numbers. Great. Thank you. Erm, Yes to make an appointment. Yeah, the reason is, we have to discuss your erm, your reports and so on. Erm, what were we going to do today? A lot of Right. Okay. Well, let's make an appointment, then. When would be convenient? Well, I finish at, about, about twelve on Tuesdays, and work on Wednesday. Right. Won't be here next Wednesday? What about next Tuesday? Could you, what's on at twelve,twelve thirty. I'm showing a film at one. I mean, you are in in the afternoon on Tuesday? I might, yes. Yeah, the trouble with that, I'll have to make you wait till four thirty, is that too long? Erm, well, what about Thursday? Thursday, yes, no no, next Thursday's easier. What about next Thursday, what time could you ? Erm, between You've got a lecture? Erm, I mean one and two. Between one and two? Or after three. Or after three. Erm, yeah, let's make it at three. Can we make it at three next Thursday, after the lecture? Right. So after next Thursday's lecture, twenty eighth, at three o'clock. Right, Okay. Yeah. See you then,. Thanks very much. Bye. Okay,, come on, come and sit down. Well, I was erm, I just heard, you wanted me to come in, erm, I'm doing a, a paper on Monday. Oh, that's right. That's right. But erm And you were going to you wanted me er, to give you a run through of it. Well, well, I su I suggested that this will be helpful, which it will be, will it? Erm, well the thing is that I still erm, in the process of doing research and reading and gathering a Alright. I mean, we did reports, we did those, yeah lot of ideas about getting an idea about did you, am I in the class just now? I went to erm, the registration Yeah. it says I haven't been put on the list. Am I on it ? Er, well, they hadn't notified me, but they probably, you told them anyway, did you? Yeah, Because that's the important thing. Erm, yeah the important thing is that they know. I mean, I know, I've, I've written it down myself. Erm Okay, you say you're still Right, yeah You're still doing this I didn't think the question that erm, the question culture was the same as our culture. Right. And erm,read about the book so far, and I'm going through erm, Okay. Why? Well, there's no need now, I mean, I only suggested this erm, to help you, er, and I wouldn't want to make you write it out er, just for the sake of writing it out. It don't think it's a good use of your time. And I mean, if you think that just presenting it in the, in the class is er enough send it down to use yourself, but to be able to carry that through and to, to go on to, to be sincere, and I respect that it's important to be sincere. If you, you know, talk about people moral values and to be able to do that, and just majority of anything you need to you need to have a that allows you to do that without Yes, yeah. Yes, it's very important to remember that both in, from this direct point of view and from Freud's findings, you shouldn't just assume that it was a watertight compartment between two areas, as it were. One conscious and un it's not like that. I mean, in fact, what, what er, what Freud found, he says is sometimes, you get erm, this is in fact a kind of continuing from conscious and unconscious, and there's a big gradation in between, and very often erm, things are erm, unconscious, not in the sense that they're totally lost, and you are unaware of them, but for example , they're, they're isolated. They, they, they exist erm,princ a very common finding in psychoanalysis is that things will, will, will exist as word representations, with no feeling representation, or they won't be connected to, to er they'd be completely isolated. You know, a very good example of this, that always sticks in my mind,telling me erm, that once she was analyzing a woman and er, a lot of the analysis was concerned with erm, conflicts, erm, relating to masturbation in childhood, and constantly felt that this was what the analysis seemed to have done , because the woman consistently denied this had ever happened. Absolutely denied, she'd ever done that. Then one day, said she described something she often used to do in childhood, habitually did. And she had a special name for it, I can't remember what is was now, but it was an innocuous word, like erm erm, kneading, or something like that, something you do with your fingers. Erm, and said, okay, that's what you called it in childhood, you called, say kneading, if that's what it was. She said, now, supposing you had to look up what you just described, you know, in a dictionary, and find a word that everybody would associate with it. What word would you find? And she said, the woman thought for a minute, and suddenly she gasped when said that's masturbation, isn't it? And said, yes. And she said, but I've always known I did that. And, you see, she'd known it, but it had been entered under another word, in her mind. As she didn't connect it with what everyone else calls masturbation. You know, er, that's a horrible thing that other people do. She had her own term for it, and as long as it was purely associated with that term, she never connected it. And that's quite a typical finding. That things remain unconscious, not because you never knew about them, but because they're never brought into the relevant connections with other things that make you conscious of the thing in the sense of seeing what's in it for Mrs you know,reports. So we're not saying it's a question of conscious unconscious, or rigid demarcation where we are actually talking about subtle gradations of consciousness, from complete self conscious awareness at one end, to total loss of all memory of the thing at, at, at the other. And everything in the between, and most stuff is in between, as a matter of fact. So I think you're right, it's a very very important, erm, and, and often in life, you can find people switch from one to the other with astonishing speeds. I mean, some people have kind of butterfly minds, with butterfly behaviour, and they switch from being one type of person or another type of person almost minute by minute. You just can't keep up with them. I mean what does this, you know, what is, is this? I mean, do to have this astonishing capacity of switch all the time. You just don't know, know where you are with them. Well, that was interesting, it was interesting discussion, er, thanks to an excellent paper, we're, we're, we're delighted, and that was first rate. Who did I say was next week? Right. We look forward to hearing from you next week,. Sorry I've got to throw you out on time, but I've got another appointment at four. Er,, did you see him about that? Erm, yes I did the only problem Yeah. You don't have a Ah, well, keep our fingers crossed. Tell me if there's anything I can do. Okay. Yeah. Well, what did you think of the film,? Had you seen it before? I hated it. It is a bit, is er is er is a bit odd. I suppose you liked it? Well, I must say I liked it, er, I mean, I showed it because er suggested it. I thought it filled in the, the kind of, some of the biographical kind of things we don't have time to do in the course. was interesting. I mean, the general, I mean Yeah yeah. You think I should show it in the future years? Perhaps not. Er, it depends Yeah, yeah. Fine. The sexual aperitif. Yeah, it did. Er. Yeah, yeah, have a look, hold on. Thanks for the book. Alright. Oh, you sure you can spare it? Yeah, I've no more lectures until your one on Thursday. Well, can I give it to you back on Thursday? Yeah, that's wonderful. You sure you won't need it till then? I'll keep it under lock and key, many thanks. Ah, right, so how are you? Oh, I'm fine, thank you. Put that save. Make sure I don't lose that. Okay. Right, so, and you're going to the, what's the seminar at five is it or That's right,oh, yes, I received this letter. Yeah. I don't know if you've heard about it? No. Erm, well, I was Yeah. and I mean, I considered myself to have been like, er, frequent, or erm, whatever. So er, on the last seminar, they all talked about sending out letters to all the students who weren't there the attendance was very low, and I received one, but Right. enough. And er, I was also asked why I had offered to and I'd already spoken to the students' secretary about it. Yeah. So I wrote back to and Mm. Yeah. I'm not giving the paper for health reasons. I have been Right. I will, I will mention, I didn't know they were sending out such a letter, otherwise I would have er, told them in advance. But I will I'm on the street for the moment I, absolutely, I'll, I'll speak to everyone, don't worry. I mean, don't worry So are you, are you be going to seminar? Yes. Yeah. Yeah,I have to . Thing is I, I just I can't work . No. I go sick No. somehow I haven't been able to work No, okay. because I'm really worried Mm. when I think about it I think I just can't work, it's like, I've lost interest whenever I find some I feel I'm able to keep up Mm which is something I Mm. I mean want to I have considered going back to er, training and cancel this Right, I see, what dropping this altogether? Er, no, I'd like to come in. Mm. I mean I don't particularly like Mm. Yeah. and perhaps after that come back to Right. I really Well, the, I mean the, the thing about the end fill is Four legs good! Two legs bad! Unless you're a chicken, or to put it boldly, animals have rights too! But exactly what rights do they have? And does supporting animal rights justify violence? The animal rights lobby is a forceful one by various means, some legal, some not, some specific, some violent. Campaigners seek to convince the unconverted that animals deserve a better deal! Which animals? And what's the better deal? Let's find out. And let's start with a basic question, here in this nation of animal lovers, do you think animals deserve a better deal? Some animals? All animals? Any animals? Do they deserve a better deal? Button one for yes, and button two for no. This is a descriptive vote because this hundred er women are not a representative cross section of the whole of Scotland they're invited to come from various places and ninety six of them think that animals deserve a better deal. When you said yes to that which animals did you mean? And what were you talking about? Yes? I think, a lot of people see the stray dogs problem as a big problem, certainly if people have decided to partake of pets, they have a responsibility to look after them and not throw them out on the streets. Okay so And I think problems like that are due to human irresponsibility! So those animals do have a raw deal! Okay, that's one area. Who else said yes, and why? Up, yes? I think animals that are used for human entertainment definitely deserve a better deal, for example, large wi wild animals that are used in circuses, we haven't got the right, as people, to say that they're here for our entertainment. What would that better deal be in that case? The better deal would be, not being transported up and down the country, and not being made to perform tricks that are un unnatural to their own behaviour patterns. Aha. Aha. Any other views? Yes? I think that er concern should also spread to animals that are hunted pleasure as well, i.e. the stags, deer, foxes, hares, I mean, there's there's quite a considerable list that's all done for entertainment. Mhm. Now the better deal there presumably would involve Not chasing them at all! not hunting them at all? No! I mean Okay. let them live their lives in peace without the harassment of chasing them with dogs and supporters and what have you! Okay. Any others that, yes? I don't think animals should be ta , used to be tested for cosmetics Mhm. perfumes or detergents Mhm. different things like that. What about medical research? Well, there again, yes, with reservations because if it comes to the fact that if it's going to save human lives, yes. Yes, and you get all the animals who are experimented on and you sa there's not a week that comes out and you don't an a report saying, oh well this this, this causes cancer in rats or and you, imagine the amount, the huge amounts of the sub , whatever substance it is that had been given to rats to cause the cancer, and there's no knowing that the amount that's gonna be given to rats causing cancer, will give cancer to humans! I mean,i it's just absolutely ridiculous! I'm a trustee for the beauty without cruelty charity Aha. and we would like to see an end to all experiments on animals, for cosmetics, toiletry, household product purposes. Hasn't that campaign been going for Oh many, many years! a long time? Yes! And we're making progress now. How? There are already many alternatives to the research carried out on animals which has been going on for a long time. Erm for example, you can grow human skin in a, in a cell culture and use that as a, as a testing er, medium Mhm. instead of a live animal. We can it can use erm a si similar substance for eye tests erm, to test to replace the Jeyes eye test Mhm. which again has been used for a long time on animals. These tests are very misleading. They don't protect bu su er, er the public, they protect the people who are actually manufacturing the products. Now do you think that the campaign th the th , the campaigns against the use in cosmetic testing had anything to do with the changes that were brought in, or do you think advances and responsible er science would have, would have made those changes anyway? I think inevitably,th the changes would have come because the, the alternatives are better. Yep. They are less misleading. Ah, but I think the campaign, the public campaign and the pressure that's been put on companies have definitely made quite a, quite a difference. Yes? While I agree that there is absolutely no justification for testing for cosmetic purposes at all! Absolutely Yes. none! I think we would have advanced to the stage we are at had we not used animals in the earlier stages for medical research. We're advancing all the time and I think there may came a time we won't use animals at all for medical research, but at, up till now we needed to use animals for medical research. I think you've got to be realistic about this whole issue, that er, obviously seeing the poor furry little bunny suffering for cosmetics! Mhm. Yes! I agree, that is wrong! But, if a test on a chimpanzee would save my child's life I'm afraid I'd go for the test on the chimpanzee. Okay. Yes? Erm I I think that one of the erm, drawbacks in using animals for any kind of testing is that it sort of precludes in some way using alternatives. And I think that, you know people who, they may be trained when they're a studying to Mhm. use animals, and then go onto to work using animals, and erm you know, if maybe alternative techniques were introduced at an earlier stage, maybe in their training, they'd be more likely to them on board. But, it's almost like it's the established pattern to use animals to test Mhm. all sorts of things, and it's gonna take quite a big shifty to get out of that. Mhm. Yes? I agree with what that lady's just said. What I find horrible is that there are so many organisations or or places all over Great Britain, they're all doing the same sort of tests! Can't we collate our knowledge so that not so many tests are having to be done on all these animals? Yes? Yes. Erm, being with the S S P C A, I have seen a lot of very sad pictures of animals, but one of the saddest photographs I saw, quite recently was two monkeys, well they're primates, we are Yep. part of that family too, and they were in a lab awaiting experimentation and they were in cages side by side and they'd stretched their arms out and were holding hands, almost as though, to give each other comfort. Mhm. Monkeys feel pain. They feel happiness, sadness and they also have a sense of humour. Under the nineteen eighty six act Mm. they have stated that all use of animals must be justified and it very carefully policed by the Home Office, as well as locally. I mean, it's it's vets etcetera Yeah. Yep. are always present in research establishments to ensure the well being of the animals, and very often there is actually no pain involved in the research. How, how do you know that? Well I was told by somebody who's involved in animal Right. research! Right. But er, frequently the animals are used for the research and there's no pain involved at that time and they are killed humanly before the research actually takes place. But do we find it acceptable that animals should be used, however painless the event. Well I would rather use an animal any time that my own child! Up there. Er, Switzerland is one country that has banned the use of animals for research, and I think we ought to be going along these lines that, if animals have rights we ought not to be using them for experimentation. Mhm. And if we were to ban the the process,th erm we would devise other means for research, would, we would find alternatives. There. Th there'll, there'll quickly move it somewhere where we can do it. It's quite alright, they move it out of Switzerland but if we can't have it here we'll have it in Pakistan or somewhere where they want the money! So it won't make any difference in that Yes? respect. I do not think that research has gone as fast as it should! Mhm. And it's going to be a long time before it's going to be possible, so therefore we still have to use animals, I see no way round it. Mhm. And I know that they're using cultures and things but I still think that we are a long way from not using animals. Up there. Erm can I, can I move this conversation on to the Yes. th th the, the veterinary side? Mhm. Erm, we've we've covered the fact that animal models don't always reflect the human situation, but if we're going to understand control and eradicate disease in animals, this sort of work must go on. Could I go back to something the lady here Yes. said about the Animal Procedures Act of nineteen eighty six, erm, I know she's been told about the animals are killed painlessly and that they suffer very little pain, where there's any pain at all, but in fact this act erm which is governed by a committee only erm issues guidelines as to what might happen. No matter how serious an infringement there might be of that act they are not subject to any sort of criminal offence. Sh shall we try and see what the er, what the general feeling on this is? Do you think that er the use of animals in research is ever justified? Er, button one for yes, and button two for no. Research there being either on behalf of animals themselves, or on behalf of er, of humans. Is research on er, the use of animals in research ever justified? And this particular hundred are creeping in with their votes but have decided, seventy fo seventy seven of them say yes, all be it th th th , by far the majority, and twenty three say no. Could anyone say what the consequences would be if they weren't available for use in er in the development of human er medicines and treatment? Well I wouldn't be here because a horse was used for a toxin to provide the anti-toxin for diphtheria whe , in my days when I was younger there was no toxins as such, vaccination as such and so therefore the horses were used for research to provide the anti-toxins. So do you think people who would like to ban the use of animals in research are in, are in cloud cuckoo land do you? Yes? Would any of you twenty three like to defend your position? Yes? Erm, I'm just not sure why any any person would think that they have more right to life than animals do. I mean what what gives you more right to life than an animal does? Anyone wa Just because we have, a so called civilized nation that we live in that destroys the world, that destroys animals that destroys the environment we're living in! You know, where's our right to life come from? I think you can far too sentimental about it! Erm humans are more important than animals, you you cannot gi equate an animal life with human life. We are the intelligent order. Being intelligent, we hope we won't be cruel to animals, but you can't say that we are, animals are just as important as humans. Mhm. Wha , why do you think we are more intelligent than animals? Well, for a start You know , because we can have television we could studios? No! We can reason with each other, animals don't reason with But other. We have conversations, animals don't have conversations! We are, we are living in a world , we are living in a world where constantly there's violence, does that happen in the animal world! Yes of course it does! Of course it does! Of course it does! To the same extent? They're horrible! Animals are terribly cruel to each other! N no well Yes? I can't accept that! Surely if intelligence is the answer, you know, what about mentally handicapped children? They're, they're not intelligent, does that mean they're just the same as animals? If intelligence is the criteria, then an awful lot of us in this room would be used as test animals! Mhm. We have a choice if we want to be involved in research Mhm. whereas animals don't! They have no Mhm. choice, they have no say. Mhm. There, yes? How do you know that erm animals don't reason? Like, how do you know what goes on, like with, dolphins, with whales, with all sorts of species of animals, like we don't know, well we're so dense we can only see things like this! We don't know what goes on there, we've got no right to interfere with their lives! Yes? I think, I think we're overlooking one erm Mhm. great power that the individual has, instead of being ing , indignant about erm, our views on animals in research, we could quite simply exercise our power, not to buy the products, to ask questions of our Mm mm. of our doctors what kind of drug it is? What research goes behind it? Do to exercise our individual intelligence to examine the facts on no , on the basis of our own conscience, individually to make a decision, and we can all do that! We can buy a different type of product. And there are many Mhm. companies now erm which quite obviously assert that fact, on the doorways of chemists for instance, they do not test on animals. So you're saying the consumer pressure could could change things? Mhm. It it it's every effective measure Mm. of stopping erm, a certain product it simply will go out of production. I would disagree that er, humans aren't used in experiments because I think that we're all being used at various points in our lives, for experiments, medical or otherwise. Mhm. And erm a , a lot of the medicines that are passed er have been passed to a certain degree and then th th the we become the the animal. Are you speaking as a, as an experienced guinea pig yourself? Well I'm a diabetic erm Yes. so to a certain extent th the human that was introduced in the last few Mhm. years has has is an experiment. How do you feel about that? I, don't mind being used as a guinea pig because I feel that it'll help people in the future. Up there. I believe that we have been given the right to have dominion over animals. The point I would like to put over is, I've listened to one or two erm, radio programmes, and television programmes about this and I personally would like to have more evidence of what actually happens to the animals. I don't think us er er public people really realize what is going on and I think then they would maybe stand up and be Mm. and be counted, but I think we've tended to stand back and just say well we know it's going on but what is actually being done to these Mhm. animals? Yes? Yes, we that lady over said there were guidelines, there were people that go in and inspect, but there are not enough, it is a known fact, that there are not enough people to go and inspect all the establishments where animal erm, experimentations are taking place and, I love animals, and alright, yes,yo you can do ex , some experiments on animals but let's not be cruel! That lady up there said that we have experiments, I'm sure, human experiments , you know, experiments, sorry, on human people Mm. but, on human beings, but we're not put through the state that animals are! We Mm. don't have great lumps made to grown on us, we don't go through she , severe pain. And, which company was it that says, to do something about pain you first have to create it. Mm. Ah, I mean that's terrible! I was responsible for researching into the, so called cruelty free products for beauty without cruelty, and it was a real can of worms! I was Yep! I was sorry I got involved in it at one point! Erm cosmetic companies are very devious! It's what they don't tell you that's important. Erm, there is a big problem at the moment with cosmetic labelling, for example, erm just exactly what does cruelty free mean? What does against animal testing mean? These are the kind of things that are actually on cosmetic products. Mm. It could mean, erm, against animal testing but I go along with it anyway. It could mean erm cruelty free, er erm who de defines in that case, what cruelty is? Er, not, not tested on animals might mean, by me by but by someone else! And it all sells products! And, beauty without cruelty has been involved recently in having er, trying to put forward an E C erm, directive on th er, the labelling of cosmetics, but it's very, very difficult! And, mainly because of those kind of problems. Yeah. Yep. What do you mean by erm, not tested on animals? The finished product? The ingredient? Ingredients are tested for other reasons too not necessarily just for the cosmetic and toiletry trade. I think that one of the outstanding erm criticisms that I would make of the whole programme, in research with animals, is the fact that only two licences have been revoked I think you said Mhm. on now, I think it's a bit like factory inspectors, and I talk from experience on this, er th o i me , everything gets cleaned up before the inspectors Mhm. arrive! If you report something you always get the same reply, nothing wrong when we went round! Mm. I'd like to move with th er, I I think tha wi given wi , though we haven't got all that much time, can we move onto another area that was brought up at the beginning of the programme which was erm the use of animals in recreation and er Lisa particularly mentioned hunting, now, she thinks hunting should be banned, do you? Do you think hunting animals should be banned? Various animals that hunted in this country, foxes, in some places deer, hares are coursed er in some places. Well well! There's an interesting result! Seventy nine of you think yes, hunting should be banned. For the minority, twenty one say, no. Would any of those twenty one feel brave enough to say why they said no? Yes? Well I I so , should er be unhappy to see the, the the red-coated huntsmen a an abolished scenario. But, erm I think they could instead have an electric fox, if there's such a thing? Or, a drag and there's no need to interfere with the fox at all. Okay. Yes? They say that hunting's for er er human pleasure, er, I mean personally I've only been to one hunt, and I don't see what all the the, the, the, the trouble's about because the huntsman is only a spectator, it's the hounds that are hunting the fox and it is to keep the foxes down. What's better than , gassing, shooting, poisoning? Mm. What's more humane? So you think hunting's fair enough? From my point of view, yeah. Yes? Beside you. Yes, I I would have to, I'd have to disagree with er, my colleague here. Erm, I, it's not the shooting is, most certainly, as long as it's with a a qualified marksman Mm. it's most Mhm. definitely less cruel than hunting because the animal is chased and er, what it's heart is doing while it's being chased and it's, really is the idea's quite horrendous to me! And actually, hunting doesn't kill all that many foxes, a a hunt probably erm, kills one an, at a meet if they're lucky. But hunting does maintain jobs, and countryside people often say. Would anyone like Mm. to talk to, to to that? Yes? Well coming from a rural community erm hunting and shooting and fishing are very important to the Yeah. economy of the community and to have suburbia creeping in and trying to dictate to what has been the foundation of the of their economy, for many, many years is almost ridiculous! Mhm. Down there. I think the idea of taking a fox and having it ripped apart legitimized by our society is a bad message to pass onto our children! When children nowadays are becoming more responsible to our society, and they see us as one world we have a responsibility to protect ourselves and our world, and that includes the animals in it. The seventy nine of you who voted for banning hunting,a are you all townees, do you not understand th the fabric of er, of the country? Do you have an alternative to offer that would er, that would sustain that fabric? Yes? I live in the country, I live in the heart of the country right next to a sheep farm, and there's no co , no message at all from the farmer that foxes are a pest it's a misnomer put about by the hunt. Fox hunting was started, two hundred, three hundred years ago by the aristocracy because there wasn't enough deer, because the fo the forests were getting obliterated by the same pi , the same people, it was started as an entertainment, it's an entertainment now! And now the hunt are turning round and they're lying about what they're doing, they're saying it's pest control, they're saying, we do it, it's quick, it's a sharp nip in the back of the neck. It's not! The hunt encourages foxes into their land they actually build artificial earths, we saw one of Saturday when we were out protesting, the ar , they encourage foxes onto the land so they can hunt them. A hunt is no good without foxes. They don't want foxes Alright. to be depleted at any way, they encourage them! So you actually go out and do something about Yes. your your your er your feelings? Wha what do you do as a protester? We actually, I'm actually er, in the Scottish Action Against Blood Sports Aha. and we do many things, we write to MP's, we write to councils trying to get them banned off the land, and we've been very successful. We've actually helped stop the oldest hunt in Scotland, in Li Lithgo in Stirlingshire, which ended last year. We were very successful then and we've now progressed. We go out every single Saturday, weekdays if we can, and we try and stop the stop the fo , hounds killing the foxes So peacefully. so so you're proud of having stopped the oldest hunt in, in Scotland? Very! Right. I'd like to disagree with that. Ah. I'm an ex-master's wife from Lithgo in Stirlingshire hunt, and we had to stop because erm the country was disappearing underneath us. We had a new Mm. town built in our country with two motorways, and the towns have all expanded to great extent and that was why we had to give up, it was nothing to do with our friends the saboteurs. It was creeping suburbia then, it wasn't Creeping suburbia. So wha Yes. what do you do now with the, what do the old the old hunt's people do? Well we've, we just have to er, grin and bear it. There is nowhere else to go for us. Yes. I would like to ask the saboteurs how they can justify the fact that they ill-treat hounds and horses? Now I personally have had a horse actually had things thrown at it by saboteurs! I feel this is cruelty to horses. Yes. That's, that's just absolutely rubbish! I mean we don't Well you can't, you can't like er, you can't say that she might have something thrown at her horse cos maybe you weren't there and maybe Generally speaking Mm. erm, I mean people who spend their entire Saturday doing something that they, I mean, I don't enjoy going out every Saturday! I mean, I'd like to do the things that, my hobbies, but I go out there because I care and I see that I feel that it's necessary to, to actually stop these people tormenting an animal for fun and if I'm that concerned about animals, I'm not gonna stoop to to hurt a horse, or or the hounds! I mean I ride myself, I have dogs myself, I mean, it's just another excuse from the hunting fraternity, turn it round, blame the cruelty on the saboteurs when really there wouldn't be any saboteurs if there weren't people to kill foxes purely for fun! Do you want to come back on that? Yes. Erm we ha , we have had horses and hounds and damaged but apart from that I would ask the speaker who i , what Mm. or who is the fox's predator? After all, the mouse has a cat, so what is the fox's predator? Do you know much about fox ecology? Yes. Mm mm . Have you ever, ever looked into I'm willing, I'm willing to listen to you! well the , I think these people who concern themselves very much about dictating the do's and don't of fox hunting, if they were to spend a little more time about looking into the research of, how foxes actually live. Three hundred thousand foxes are killed annually in this country, either through hunting, which only attributes to a small two point percent, shooting, gassing, snaring, all of which happen during the hunting season as well. So I mean, these foxes are still widespread and abundant, they can sustain seventy percent losses, so what human intervention are you doing? I mean ha how can you say that killing fifteen thousand foxes a year is helping to control foxes? Up there. I hunt regularly Mhm. because I breed racehorses, I also am a farmer so I wear two hats, but I've actually seen foxes sit down we move the hounds move in,si sit down and scratch in the middle of a field, and then they think ah! Right we're off! But, in fact from a farmer's point of view they are a su a nuisance, we have a man who co , who supposedly raises pheasants, he traps them, he also trapped my dog and this is him ah, justified, his justification was there were too many foxes. Erm. and so therefore, we don't particularly pretend that they are Mm. that hunting justifies the the end of killing foxes but it does preserve country life. We're going to have to close, alas, because it's been very interesting, and er er er a very diverse, ninety six people think animals should have a better deal, seventy seven think that the use of animals in research is justified at ti , from time to time, and well over seventy Except . think that hunting should be banned. And, my final question to you, just out of curiosity is, are you ve , a vegetarian? Button one for yes, button two for no. I could of said do you eat animals, but I decided that would be insensitive, to those of you who are vegetarians. So, in this, very animal loving assembly, I think er, you would agree er, only twenty one are vegetarians and seventy nine people love animals but they also enjoy chewing on them from time to time. Wo would er any of you animal eaters like to say something about that position? Yes? Yes, I would As, as an S S P C A representative. and and also as a farmer, if I Mhm. might say, I'm a beef farmer, erm I enjoy my, my beef very much, my philosophy is that erm, if we're going to use animals we're going to eat the , their time here should be as humane, they should have as humane treatment as possible, and they should be free from fear, hunger and pain, and when the time comes for them to go they should know as little about it as possible. Yes, but they never do! You might say that about the human animal really, mightn't you? Yes Thank you all very much for a civilized and interesting discussion. Thank you for joining us. Goodbye. What time do you get there what, what time did you get there? . . No,. You said this morning didn't ya? Travelling, between Woking and Guildford, or whatever. Er, and that, you, you'll at the town cooking dinner, watching television, talking to my friend, or just roughly what you're doing at that time that conversation took place, okay,at work,form, then make me a cup of tea, she was photo-copying, Mm. that's what she was, she was doing . There's an awful lot involved though. , you're usually saying oh it's just, just general . Mm. Went shopping or whatever, as I say, it, it, it, a couple of days or whatever you feel, if you, if you, if you want to get into it you might find you want to do them all Mm. but if you, in two days, that yeah would be grate, okay, and the same thing for next page, this is the day I started which, like maybe tomorrow or next day or when ever you start it Wednesday, I started at ten o'clock in the morning, was I, I was in Woking, what was I doing nothing just reading a, do whatever you have to put in your whatever you , yeah where you went for a walk, down, went to the shops mm. or whatever, just let them know roughly what you're doing, cos, all they get is a tape, it gives them an idea of what sort of things were happening at that time, any words they can't pick up if she's cooking, maybe that's something she was making or whatever, erm, in the please write the first names and details, why you know them, of all the people speaking on this side of the tape, in order in which they speak on the tape in the first, first instance, right, you know, so now Carla, my husband, myself, Lee and, you don't need to repeat them again after that Mm. so if you don't, don't want, not worried too much about this, I mean, although we want you to do this, I mean, rather just get the conversation, in, even though you don't do this . You want more than that . The knob on the cooker's been turned. Put it in the dish. Does everybody finish their work experience then ? Yes, no not everyone, some I know one person who's name's Adam, he finishes Tuesday Why? Cos he . Why's that then? It's just the way they've done it, the firm. Oh, the firm. Kim was saying , they do it for two weeks can't believe they would, the different school though, and then that other chap said that, that, erm Oh Steveo's under . yeah but that other one said, oh look there's . , oh yeah, mm,, he's a polo, he . Eastenders is on. have bath, watch the telly. What have you gotta do, write your assignment then? Geography and my diary. What of the and every day? Yep. How long's the diary got to be? I dunno, page, one page Would you write it like an actual, can you fit it in a diary or have you got to write it, the date, just, just like a proper diary? I'm not sure. You should really do it like a, like make a little folder thing up and then date it Monday, you know Yeah. If you do it for when you've actually left home , when you, when you've actual left at twenty past seven no What doing Monday then? I asked them how old she was? Charlie Chaplin, thirty six years old. Big, big boobs go run your bath. Gosh look at the size of those glasses. . Well, yeah. six years, how can you always say they're Ah Ah, what's wrong the baby? . What's the matter with Gary Lineker's baby then?. . keep fit till after Christmas, don't like the cold weather, he's gonna go back after Christmas and do it. Is he? Does it, is it, just, is it just run erm . , what erm, does that cricket thing , Steve, is it or is it just cricket season? Cricket season. who is it then? Goodness when you, mum and dad's done the back garden, when you meant to be doing the front garden with the weeding and that?, well what's all, you know, all these wages. I haven't got the time. Where you gonna go and get this seat then? Dunno , it mean's I've got to spend money, it'll be late. . Oh yeah. and some clothes. . No way, unless you're getting in, if you, if dad's getting you some clothes and then, . wrap them up for Christmas. No. Wh ,wh , what you having for Christmas then? . Yeah, and have all this stuff and then they make greedy. Greedy. You buy the suit. No. You buy You wear . you said you were gonna club towards it all the money out your post office. Dad had said he'd pay for it on Access. Think you'd give him the money. Get out of it. There's still There's ninety pounds that I'd borrow off you, I'm going to use that towards it. No, you pay me that ninety pound back I will do plus a years access to the . No. . No. Oh come on Lee. That must of been where, that must be where we got . We've got the fifty pound computer. We didn't have to pay for that. Who's done that? No one,I can keep that,. What? We bought a fifty pound computer and said to Kevin you can keep it. . Yeah and I paid ten pounds. I put that down on his Christmas list. I'll draw it in a suit, clothes. Yeah, but you won't be getting much because you've had lots. Don't want , chocolates. Didn't get any . tenner on chocolates. You go out and do eight hundred pound this weekend. Oh are you? Yeah. Where you going to go to get for you,, I don't know why they're cutting down all of erm, his, they've got some nice ones on there. On the top there. How much? Bought a few last night down at Mitcham didn't they? how much? What? The receipt. Do you see this at Mitcham? No more than a hundred pound. No . They got a nice one in Mr Harrod. I don't know where, a hundred and forty pounds. Too much. Why? Because it is, isn't it Dave? What? A hundred and forty pound for a suit. What is? He, a hundred and forty pound, far too, be like those green trousers you bought, well you've never worn them yet. Don't fit me. No, I have worn them actually. You've worn them one night. I've wore it a couple of times for . Don't give me that rubbish. I have, but I like my jeans though. Well think, why pay out for a hundred and forty pounds for a suit, when you gonna wear it again? Could be, wear it every week. Yeah, I'm sure a walking bank be glad when you've got a job, you'll be earning your own money you can buy your own things. Yeah, but I do any way. When? Trainers lost that eighty quid Oh. trainers. You've lost it? Why? Cos I haven't got it, I owe Vincent that nine pound, I must of spent some of it. I wanted to, look, I've made a list, list out for Nan and I've, there's, the C D you've gotta put on that list, and I also wanted a C Don't want C D's, set of tapes, C D's are a waste of money. Why? After having a C D for Christmas last year, they're a waste of money. No, but it's cheaper to buy a tape because the . Yeah you ain't got, you get better quality on a C D. If you've got the C D we could all , yes you do, we could all use it, then you could have blank tapes, and then you can tape it on cassette but I want a list of two C D's and I, in Argos if there's a watch nan want's the list and she want's it this weekend. No you don't . Mm. But, I want it done tonight. . Yes, I've got to give nan a ring. What tonight? Well, over the next couple of days, what's the matter then? If you've got a hole which is like that . put the water which is rushing through Yeah . , go flying up it, how far you gonna go? Not all the way. aren't ya? Yeah. And then what you do there? You stay there. That's what Carla's got look. No, cos the water's not coming up above your face, the water's filled the whole going down and it's got gates. Have to try sitting down then. How can you swivel through the gates? Well how do you get through the gates? Loads of water get up through the gates. So. Yeah, so up to the gates, just push yourself off the gates . How quick can you get to the surface, must be strong ,, two, three riding down to the and you're gonna push it out the way, it's like, it's like the tide, it comes in and then goes back out,. Should be two in there. Why? I don't see . No if, cos there seemed a pair. . At this work experience . In . Do they? I asked for some once. You did? No, I never pick up the phone, they do that, pick up one phone and speak for a minute, while that ones ringing they say hold on a minute, and pick up the other one. What's it about then? , it's only about this erm, I have to do the practice. Huh? Have to do the practice. Know how to do them now? You should at Peter's. I don't know Peter's . No, I don't actually. Cos I don't know his can't do it. Quit easy though isn't it? All you do is, stick it through, phone your number, push the button, it's gone through. I get fed up doing the . Yeah, but, even when you leave school that's what happens don't it? I, I mean you usually start off with the boy everybody has to start at the bottom,. . Mm, I'm sure. You make yourself cough more by lying down there. Some of those Kim's, women she work's with the teacher, he daughter's in this, doesn't half get paid a lot of money Not for doing this though, ah? It is, yeah, something like that, I it's quite a lot of money though. you might be doing it?.. The kid's love it, Carla would love it wouldn't she? Yeah, Lynn just ordered that one for Victoria, she had it on order for seven weeks twenty four pound it was that one It'll be easy if you write it down. No, just mark on, just put a cross straight through. What you have to, what page is it in, in the book? Page forty six Page forty?. Yeah,. Classical. Yeah. I . That's three. Yeah what's it called? . Be about . ,. Who is it? B I B Yeah. A L G I B, is it one word or two? One,. . B I B Yeah. A L D I, one word Yeah. four seasons. . . Dad we wanna play it on Saturday don't toys, toys and games. oh we don't know how much it is. Yours . Yeah. Right next one. Huh, he's probably too much excited of . Right, welcome page forty four. Yeah, item number. Six. Yeah. Amy Grant, Heart In Motion. Don't know to use Bob Marley one or not. Who is it? Amy Grant. Yeah. Erm, Hearts In motion. Heart In Motion is that two words or one? Hearts In Motion, all three words. What is it m, o, t i, o, n. Moton? No it's not, i, o, n. M, o, t, i o, n, Amy Grant, I don't know if got Bob Marley one or not. He's good. We can buy you that then, if you want it, we never know what to buy you. Right now that's it, were now in the Argos . So did you get your good work for, your good sticker for work again or what?or what? Yes. And that's is your letter box up at Christmas yet? Your poster box? We have to . That's on Sunday, so what's happening on Sunday Carla? What do you do? On Monday eh So what is it ad advent calendars. Hooray. Which one is it Lee? . Don't you like that other one,, it's just plain leather strap? There That one? No up the top, third one down on the right hand side. With the grey strap? Yeah, I thought that was quite nice on the right hand side page, that one,, three down, yeah. That one? Mm. Thought that was quite nice. Her dad said he lives there and erm. Pick that one up now,the bits. and erm,. Won't hurt, spying on them in it? Sorry. They're the . What you want they . That's it, it's just after the look at the ballerina broach and see what you think, broach, no silver, keep going That? keep going That's a nice ring,number one. What's it say? One,it's eleven ninety nine, nineteen carat gold, erm, something ring, size one to T, no I to T . What size was you? Erm, U, no . I like that one the best, shall I put that down? Argos number one. I know the one. That . Can I try that one? We'll see Christmas, who?, no it's , er it's on the right hand side, it's, it's the next page at the bottom is it? That's not there. How much? Sterling silver, ballerina broach, nineteen, no, eight, eight ninety nine. Got crystals in it? Mm. Do you think she'd like that? Bennettons, you can buy that . Which one, yeah that's the one that erm Kim's been trying to get Lorraine the Bennetton one. Nineteen ninety nine. That's not bad, Bennetton one? Shall I put that down, Argos number fourteen Argos number fourteen. Hang on, page first. Page six. Yeah, Number fourteen, yeah, Nineteen ninety nine. The one that . nineteen ninety nine pounds. About sixty nine, seventy pounds. Seventy pounds. What is? Oh yeah, you can get the one I want in. Extra brill. I'll write it down but you'll have to write to see what father Christmas says. I might . That was seventy. Seventy. . Right now it oh it's seventy in Argos. What's that? Erm, one and a half keyboard, item number Hang on. One and a half keyboard item number five and it sixty nine quid, fifty p. Sixty nine quid, don't you mean sixty nine pounds and fifty pence. Pounds . Mm . Got no baby strap. Fallen in love with that stuff. You'll have to get your stuff down and, you know what one we'll have to get, you know those big cases that she get's from Ikea, and bring it all down and get one of those for your bedroom and keep it all in Started your homework yet Lee? What? Started your homework yet? No. Didn't you do it while I was out? Yeah, when you come in. Was that rushing you to get that paper going? . That's that little powerful car, like, Kearin's, but he's got the motor bike . Daddy can we swop places now? Why? Cos I wanna sit next to you and Lee. No. Why? You're gonna have to go a long then, cos I'm going up the pub, ha, ha. No you're not actually. . Is it on now? , play . . Carla, pass that bag for me please,, what did I tell you about jumping on that couch? And when you come home from school, mm. Saturday. No but you're going dancing tomorrow morning at nine thirty and then you'll be going straight to the , you won't have time tomorrow tonight?. No, I'm trying to get my Christmas shopping done. Got to take me out. I will take you out, I don't want you out with me this time.. Taken off the black bush. No,second tonight, the second . . . Got a wipe somewhere, don't wipe yourself,rubbish. Going to get Lee's ski stuff Your cold better . Ah? Is Lee's cold better? What are you doing today? Nice day today. Might be able to finish about twelve. Why? Cos the building lot they're all going to a meeting at er Arsenal. Can I have some lemonade . You've got to go to meeting? Dad said he's buying me a hotel . You going back to work on . I might. You might? That's when I'll be finished. I've still got another week to come though, that might be about January the third onwards, for a week. Christmas. Can't get any time off, they won't let you take it off, two days I get. Probably get Christmas day. Christmas day and Boxing day if I . What's Boxing day, the day after? Mm. Oh dear,working for a living,you get the work don't ya? Loads of people there. You get up Christmas day morning to do all the breakfast with the screaming kids. Is it . Mm. . What is? . Where's that then? I've got dancing . Yeah, but leave at quarter past four, you are pushing it. Take to London? No, erm,school. What's there then? School, school on a coach. Forty five minutes. What to get to Guilford? forty five minutes. No, forty five minutes before I get, when I get home, I've got, I have my dinner. Oh, it takes forty five minutes to . as long as she has her dinner. Er, when I get home I've got to have my dinner, got to get changed No, cos you can go without your dinner can't you? Oh,. and have that at seven o'clock. That's what . . It's they're all doing erm,I've got you , right and there's a really daffy bloke he I've got you . That's how he's singing it? Yeah, he had to sing it like that and then, then there's, there's only two of them, you know and erm, the, er, other, the other one, he's a black man yeah, and he goes who's that big gorilla in the back and he's pointing to me . Oh was he ha, ha . And then erm, then they had this thing called Niff, which was water, and they came round spraying all of us. So where do they come, is Vicky in the actual group? Why is she, what, does she watch? Not her, not just her, all her mates. Ooh, feeling a bit tired. Why isn't she in it then? It's not eight o'clock. She's not in domestic . Did you get all that stuff in . No, it's not . See that Robin Carla, see little Robin over there. Where? Over in that tree there,, see it, that big tree, er, on the left hand branch, see it, see it now, with a red breast. Rocking Robin. What one? See the branch that sticks up? Goes that way. What one? What tree? See the new tree they've planted. Oh them. That broken, that bird, that Oh yeah, I can see it. there it goes. Gone in Keith's house, I was looking in our garden . , oh. . You wouldn't know what tree was Brenda. Is that, is that my cup of tea? look he's come down stairs,sit on the chair Carla. Certainly . Oh no, that's what have you been doing then? This week . This week . Yeah, but I don't normally do I? Have a cup of tea though. I have a cup of tea do think he's on holiday. there multiplying, and I'm loosing control . Got another . Yes. Oh, oh. What you working on essay at the moment? . No, what is it, like these do that, do, do you do algebra in that school yet or not? When you go to secondary school, you'll do that? No, we do do algebra. And that french, go on let's see that french. Go on say something in french to us Carla. What one? Say good morning to Nan. Can't say good morning. Why? I'll say how are you? Well say what you can. What one, whatever you got Pardon. . Is that all you know, I thought you new a lot? Yeah, What does that mean? . Yeah . Yeah Get out Carla you don't have to go to football, oh yes, you'll go to football Sunday afternoon. Don't want to go.. I'll have to see if dad's around. . No way. He promised mum, one Sunday after my . I did it Carla. . I was gonna do it in a minute. I was just finishing off that, erm, going to drink my cup of tea. What. I shall zip that up in a minute. Haven't you got nothing important today. You need one of those big box like Lee don't you? . . Right, I'll see you I'm going back to have that half hours kip, I'll be up . Dad can you try. you're gonna break it, let me see . Mm. . Does it, saw how that . Well I'm . Think it'll get lost, oh mum I'll get it . Right oh. I'll see you later, I'll be home probably about half past two. I'll look forward to that Brenda . See you later then, bye. Jackie phoned me up to say , she phoned me up today for a chat, we were chatting away and she said erm,I heard Brenda, Brenda, so I knew it was girl, and er, I was saying she walked straight into the kitchen and I was sort of still on the phone, I was saying yeah, yeah, ok and erm, I said I'm going out shopping and I'm taking the dog with me, I said ok fair enough, she said well you'll probably be gone when I get back, I said oh might be but she said but I don't know and erm you know and I just put the phone down cos she wanted to see the pictures, my little girl asked put all the pictures up for him and er were looking at all the pictures and I'd forgotten about Jack on the phone you know , so she s all of a sudden I got back she said oh your phone call she said who you talking too? Oh no you know she's gonna sort of, sort of suus, so erm, I said oh it's alright it's only Eve's house keeper, and I got back on the phone I said no I'm every sorry to leave you hanging on I said no I don't know where she is, I haven't seen her all morning, I haven't seen her at all, and er I said bye then, she said what's the matter with you she said , I said what do you mean what's the matter with me, she said oh, why you talking funny? I said bye then see you sometime, bye and I put the phone down, and she said what does she want then and I said oh she wanted to know where, you know she'd gone and I said oh I haven't seen her all week you know after, while we was hanging, she was hanging pictures, erm, she come through, she said oh they look wonderful she said I've got pictures she said, I want my mountain put up in my lounge, with that June burst out laughing, Neil went through and he, he put her pictures up and he was gone there, he said, god he said, you know literally it's a day to hang pictures, I said well don't worry about it, you know, that's what he said to do . like that little thing, you know, the actual picture hook with a hook The string. you just knock it in. Yeah well he's got brass wire on the he just, special picture wire it's called. And he spent all day with them. He had about thirty pictures to hang, and he had to measure it wall so it was spot on and he want, he wanted them all upstairs, he did, one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight about twelve just downstairs in the hall way . What? Well they're not new blimming, new pict though they've decorated haven't they, they've done one coat now, I look like Nora Batty with wrinkles in this tights I told her to phone me from Woking station but she's probably er . well she put, cos she usually she buy phone card or what does she call, cos I asked her do you remember? Asked her what sort of coins she uses do you reckon they go with it, do they say on the front page then about that superstore. Yeah. What do they say, they're up in arms? outrage So where else will they then. They say, the trouble is they're, at cricket club they want it update. They want it updated, but I thought that was, doing away with it. Is that, is that staying there? building built on the running track . Mm. And then Tesco's there,. Do they, and where was that? further down. . . And they're actually, and that cricket . , yes, what they do is say a bloke, one bloke owns quite a bit of that cricket ground, Tesco's he said, Tesco's what they sa , they know that he want's, he's put the plans in to upgrade all, to get a bigger site somewhere else, for Mm. Tesco's have done it, Tesco's he sell it to we buy it . But doesn't it cost them money? No, he, he don't . That's what I'm saying, when it costs, doesn't it cost Tesco's an extra lot of money? Yeah, but they get this . Yeah, but then don't they have to get permission? Oh yeah, oh it'll be a long mean fought out battle. I, I really don't see . But I can't see why they wanna put er a Tesco's, if there's a Sainsbury's coming to . Well, it all goes . They've got a Waitrose and , they've got Sainsbury's in Birmingham, but then again you've got . Yeah, but they're out of aren't they cos they're saying out from eight to eight sort of time, or sixteen a week aren't they, because of the competition with them all. Yeah, but I, I don't think it's,. Yeah, if, it's such, I mean. . But it's . Oh yeah, it's . That would go. They . The cricket pitch has been there for thirty five years. It's for it . No one 's and they can buy, they can re-build it maybe . That always . Well yes . Well there's a lot of land there because they've got opposite the church, that bit of land. . Yeah, but it's like that, I mean are they still wanna car park, are they still gonna put erm hotel there?. Don't know . What are those pretty things down there Brenda? Oh this is Carla's, were economising you see, this is Carla, wants to, Christmas presents, we've made them. Ah. They're chocolates. Ah isn't that nice. There's them and then there's, there's those, they're not as good as those ones. Oh that's attractive isn't it? Because they're, they're the balls in there. Yes. And these ones they've got just those erm smelly's in there, they're for her teacher's. Very nice. Yes, she made them for her teacher's as well, they'll chocolates . Go on , mm. So she had great fun making them. Do you want a cup of tea Dave? Yeah, I will. Want to put that on, I'll just nip upstairs oh. June was saying that all they're tubes all broke down. Has it? Got on one tube and that broke down from the end of she's at Liverpool Street then she had to go different end to Oxford Street, but she ended up in Charing Cross then she got on another tube line at Charing Cross and then that broke down, so she said it took hours , then she gave a taxi, had to get a taxi back to Oxford Street and, and from Oxford Street back to Waterloo and it's four pound and he gave her a change for a tenner instead, and she gave him a twenty pound note but, you know she's absolutely haggard, so I said it's just as well she can have a cup of tea before she goes, I just told her briefly about that so, erm, Carla's a bit late ain't she? It's just actually turning quite cold out there you know. Where? . Yeah, but . Fresh for three quid a week buy a trailer, want a trailer?through these sales people who . Oh my god one to ten it's got one in there already, so what have I got in there? . Which one? . That's the demonstration one probably. Oh no perhaps she had an extra, oh no it's already . Your pictures came out brilliant. Oh they've come. Yeah I was thinking wonderful, your bedroom it looks like a palace your bedroom,. .. These are what we took at the museum aren't they? Oh yeah, oh brilliant. She went on a school trip to a museum and we gave her our little camera which I could never use. Yes, aha. And she's used it, you know, really, really. Oh they turned out really good They're really good the ones er of your trolls Carla it looks like it's an actual . . Oh Dave, my journey, running about early in the morning to leave everything tidy for the chaps, came out without anything inside their tum, provided that I could have coffee on the, in the buffet car on the train from Stow Market, no hot drinks madam, we haven't got enough power in the batteries, I thought well you know it's all , we got to Liverpool Street on time These are brilliant. from Liverpool Street I wanted to get to Oxford Circus which meant that I had to change at, I forget where now, because I'm in such a, a muddle now after all this , where ever it was, whatever it was I had to do, I got stuck, there were, there were just no underground trains in either direction on that line at all and a, a great tanner went dad, and I looked at people, we were all saying why we waiting here, why we waiting and we saw people rushing off so we thought we've got to rush off after them and we were all put on the train and sent to Charing Cross which wasn't where most of us wanted to go or anything like we wanted to go and from Charing Cross Those pretty good. I worked my way over . on an underground train which couldn't decide if it's going to move or not, it did eventually move I got a taxi at one point and I was so sick and tired and they put me outside Liberties, I gave the man a twenty pound note and he gave me change for a ten yes, coming back from Oxford Circus from Liberty's, I thought I'd better economise, I've been done out of ten pounds, I don't think it was dishonesty I think it was just sheer muddle, I, I'm ten pounds down, I'm must cut down a bit, so I will come back underground from Oxford Circus to Waterloo to get down to and you've guessed it, I got into an, an underground train which would not move, it simply stuck, and it would go chugga, chugga, chugga, chugga, chugga, then it would stop in the tunnel for a while, while its . Oh god. Thanks very much. . I really shouldn't I. . So British Railways under your vote of confidence then. No it is not . You had a good day at school then, yeah . . Had school today. Eh? James disconnected his thumb. Did he? Disconnected his thumb? No, he break, he broke his thumb . Dislocated it? . How did he do that then? . Mm, poor . What happened to rugby then, did he played rugby then? No that's next . Ah, it's . Sixty points in Danish long ball just for myself, I got, I scored Mm, mm, mm , what about French today? Aren't these lovely? I, I Oh . Mm Actually I, I passed the next star test. You've passed your second one. Yeah. Oh well done, so how many more to go? Six. Well done. How many did you have to do for that test then? What test? For the Gulf test . . Animals like . They've got to a adjust the tie backs, they haven't put the tie backs up yet because they've got to come down a bit, I just hung them up to let them drop a bit . Mm, they are lovely, don't they warm the room up. Mm, very much so, the only thing I don't like, I don't like the, that pink against them, those blinds now, don't know if I've got enough material to cover them. Oh. Mum. Yeah. It's a Well done. And You're doing brilliant in French, absolutely brilliant, she hasn't been doing it long. Jolly good darling. Do you know French? A little, yes, a little . Do you know Say it again dear, slower. no, I do it different to you, say I do, is that what it is? No, I, I . Yeah. Yeah, mm. Ah, I'll do you another one, erm Eh . I haven't got it right, but a,what I'm trying to say is you don't ask a lady her age . Erm, Er, No, Erm, can't remember the other one . It's all so tremendous cos you're It's so lovely . no, you know, go back to the beginning . . About erm I think the word is, height, I think. . What? What animal is it that you hate? No, I'm asking you what, what, what animal you just asked . Oh . Oh erm that's why, but Spider Spider's yes, I don't know what the word for spider's Do you like crocoldee? Sorry. Do you like crocodile's? Mm, so long as they don't . You do you like fou fountains? Sorry Fountains? Just having a French lesson. Well . Jean's actually answered . . Start from the beginning again so dad can hear it. Oh. No, it's Oh , I didn't hear you. . Correctly, no, erm Ah, I'd better not ask you your age. . Right Eh don't know, no I won't ask you that cos I can't remember what I have to ask the teacher's,, erm . . Er,. Oh er, What colour is it and I'll tell you What? Er Black, Brown and White. That's right, yes. Erm Well done. Good ain't she? Mm. What about , yeah, if he goes, if I go like you would say, if you like to you would go . No. No. . Erm, I can't remember that I can't remember the, the French for it . What about seconds. oh, oh that came, that, that, came out very oddly . That's good though isn't it? Mm. Well she don't, she hasn't got, I mean Lee he can, I mean he's getting A's in French cos he doesn't, he doesn't, he did a tape with her didn't he the other day, they actually spoke to each other and they had a conversation Good. but it does help Oh yes, rather. because this, this, your friend, I mean you haven't been doing it long have you and she will only talk to you in French won't she? Won't talk to us in English. Which is That's very good, yes. Our, our last teacher does, but she's not very good. That's how I was taught you see and so in spite of the long lapse of years there's still a tremendous amount up there because it was, it was properly learnt, you learn something thoroughly Cos Lee, since this one's been talking to him all the time Mm. she won't have English No. and I, I went to see her in open evening, I couldn't understand her, cos she you know, she real , I mean she is French Yes and he English is not very good. No not at all. Very interesting that, yeah. . You know seeing this lovely glowing pink, it reminds me of two thoughts, I wish I'd bought that instead of my pale brown chintz. It's nice though that. Oh it is, I shall love it. It's nice, yeah. In the next house you see I shall have to have different seating, they, they, I'm going to, I'm going to get somewhere smaller, so that three piece suite, it owes me nothing it only cost me what seven hundred pounds You've had it quite a long time haven't you? and it's been and it's been beaten to hell. That's right. Erm, I'll probably have er two or perhaps a three seater sofa and for the rest fire side chairs. Mm. And er, I thought I'd probably have wall paper on that wall, you know, use, use the curtains just as plenty of fullness, but have them for keeping out the light or keeping in the heat, Mm. not make them an enormous feature. Mm. The grey, I mean if, if they . They're lovely. It's the wrong, that's the the wrong pink. It's a sort of salmon rather than the pink. Mm, that's the only thing I don't like. Mm. But they, they so, so, you can, I mean I haven't phoned up yet, but, they, you can just have the, the slates replaced, you keep all your fittings Yes. and all your, all your weights and everything at the bottom and you just can have them replaced if you want. Yes Well I'm gonna work, see what it would cost Yes, yes. alternative, I could buy that pink sheeting from John Lewis Yes. and run them up the strips. Yes. You know make it sort of to match Perhaps line your strips with lining, to give them body. To give them, yeah yeah, don't talk into it, it just, just chat away, they're, they're not interested in what you're talking about, it's just they're interested in erm on what's what, you know, what's, what's erm Who's got a ? Sorry. A tank? A tank? What sort of tank? Not a tank a bowl a glass one, no not a glass one, plastic, supposed to be quite . How long is . Well what's it for? No, it's got to be right, right, er big and I'm going to stuff it with a plank of wood and put I've got about two bushes and what the problem is, is you've got get I don't see any way your school's got to make this. we have, you've got to make a model, yeah and that's mine, you have to get two men and two children across the river, you've got one and they can't swim, this is my one, two boys go across, one boy comes back, one man goes across, the other boy comes back, two boys go across, one boy comes back, one man goes across the other boy comes back two boys go across, I need to show that on, on . You've gotta do what? You've got to I need two men You can draw it can't you? You gotta do it No, cos I got to show it and I can't Oh I see, but you, you don't need anything big, you need small things surely . You want something like a little erm, like a moose you know, a moose carton Mm. How you gonna fit a little baby canoe to go across and two Well where you gonna get a baby canoe from any way? I can make one. You could ma , you could, you could get something like or erm a pudding bowl, then you could make a little baby canoe out of tin foil Mm, mm. and the men out of tin foil Oh yeah. Or pipe cleaners Or pipe cleaners Pipe cleaners are very good for that . Can pick some pipe cleaners up , they're good for making little Why don't you just put a rope across it there then, walk across the rope. Cos, haven't got nothing except canoe. . I can, yes I can remember having this sort of question about people with jugs and they wanted to measure out a certain amount, but they haven't got any markings for this certain amount and that awful This stupid Lee at the moment for his exam, he's meant to have done it by Christmas and he hasn't done it for C D T, and he, they had to just choose something erm to make that actually sort of works, so Lee couldn't, I mean they did crane's and things like that and he couldn't, the thing he came up with and he's teacher was a, a go erm, what was it Dave, a goalie stand in his goal I got and he had like a shooter thing that would er, erm a bolt or something would shoot the balls out . Mm, mm. erm, to give the goalie sort of practice, yeah , practice, yes but he's still got to come up, he's got to make this thing, I mean it's gonna be enormous with football's. I can remember at Westfield school about fifteen years ago we had an art teacher, who got the children to make an enormous thing, I think it was a Loch Ness Monster, and it went out of, out of the door of one room into another, you know, and they spent days and ages on making this thing Mm. and I thought at the time it's, it's quite good enough just to have the idea and talk about the idea, make some drawings and Mm you know . Well this . . But I said to Lee, you know, Open. have a chat with you, cos there might be something that you think that it could make, that sort of like, not such a big sort of model . Mm. If I cut some wood, crosses Well if you start cutting wood, you want to do things that are simple. You've got your upstairs in the bathroom, why don't you use that. Oh no, I wanna do something to go across there, get a piece of string, get some string, yeah, make a plasticine canoe yeah, and then put, join two pieces of string to it interesting . and then, not if you can't get, held up by a piece of string would it? Well, why not use your own penny boat? Yeah, you can use, put your people in it, all people. Cos they look like real people yeah, that's better yes. all, you know that's, now you're learning French, one of the things that the French say, they're always saying it, is , make things easy, go the straightest way, towards any thing . You can go and make , you, pick out, you're like Lee you pick out these hardest things. Yeah,yo like you say y , I love the kids dearly I said to Dave I bet that's why this I weekend and he Yeah, yeah. He said too, it'll do you good, sort of time, so I look don't you think, ooh! Don't you think I look a bit haggard and my eyes and Yeah . I'm starting to put on a bit of weight. Oh good! Which is good cos it was just Yes. just over erm er just over a stone I've lost. Yes. And, you know, it sort of Mm. frightened me Mm. cos of this. Yes you can't afford to lose it. That's right and I mean, you know, it's like now my hair needs cutting and you know you just feel, I think when you've sort of lost much weight Mm. and I mean you know, and I always feel the blooming cold! I mean I feel Oh yes. the cold anyway but sort of Yes. I said to Dave you could feel my hip bones and it oh Ah! it was awful! I dunno Yes. you know I always said wouldn't it be lovely to be thin and I said thank God No! for a bit of fat on you! Oh absolutely! I said because Well I remember Jackie telling me, she came back from sh she came up to meet me in London one day and she came up with the woman, a German woman, who at that time was a buyer for Army and Navy er women's fashions and this woman said that the model girls who are so thin she said they're always bursting into tears and crying because they're under such stress to keep their weight down and their boyfriends don't like it because the girls are are lovely to have on their arms to take out, you know everybody sort of goggles, you know, lovely slim girl with yellow half way down her back etc. but, in fact, these girls get very, very ratty! Mm have you seen Jackie lately? She phoned me a couple of days ago and said, you know, that life was really quite on top of them her mother-in-law died and they've had all the problems of putting the old man into a home the main problem being of course, is first of all find your home and while he wasn't in a home he was driving the neighbours mad because he's beginning to get confused and wander about and maintain that he hasn't had his dinner when two people have already taken him in lunch , you know and the other problem is erm er er having found him a very nice home, he didn't want to go! He didn't want to go? No not likely! He wanted to stay in his own place but Jackie and Neville were nearly driven mad running up and down to Letchworth when all that they had to do, Jackie's full time teaching and Nev is trying to build as many kitchens or build as many doors for millionaires as he possibly can. So how's erm young Neil? Neil poor boy he had a driving lesson yesterday came home and said I don't want to do any more! What driving? Mm so he was going to go up to. I bet! Neil, bring cup of tea in here and we'll talk about it and I didn't really want to spare the time because you could imagine that I wanted to get ready to come away but I I made myself sit and really give him time Mm. and he said he lacks, he totally lacks confidence. This is what he said? Yep and and he doesn't seem to be able to concentrate and I said, but Neil you can drive, when you go out with me you drive beautifully yes but yours is an automatic car, I said, it's not that I said you've got road sense you know what you're doing, I said your good. No I'm not I'm awful! I said look Neil you can drive, but let's not let's not take it that I'm saying that you must drive let's go into the question of why you're making a mess of it at this time and we, oh honestly Brenda if I've got black circles under my eyes do not be surprised because, of course, this all goes back to his absolutely, appallingly, stupid mother! He's really on a downer, isn't he? He is, he said my mother said she could have been a forensic scientist if it ha if I hadn't been born! Well Brenda you can tell, I hit the roof ! I mean normally I never criticize the woman because after No! all mothers are sacred but I just had to put the boot in on her, I'm afraid, I said stuff! I said she could have taken a degree in her spare time in th she's only she's not yet forty I said that's absolute rubbish I said th the world is full of these damn women going around saying, if only I hadn't had children I could have been Lord Chief Justice of England, I said, it isn't true! I said an er I said do you think that I wasn't a career woman, I said I gave it all up for yo er to have to look after my young babies and then when the babies were no longer young, when I got through that phase of my life I went back and combined looking after a home very adequately, thank you! With quite a difficult job, I said this is a I said your mother is living in a fantasy world, of course, I see the stupid bitch prancing around Stowmarket with her silly nose in the air! She's a very conceited woman, Pete the adulterous told me she was a very conceited woman and er Neil says I I I'd have to talk to him to him about this, she couldn't discuss anything with him she would lay down the law, that was how it had to be and I said no I said Gerry and I, I had no hesitation, as I said, in putting the boot in and Brenda and Dave take the same the attitude to children that you let them first of all when they're small, you have to tell them no like you do not That's right. put your handy in the fire, dear! Mm. And then when they get bigger you give them more and more freedom to do just what they want to do and all you do is watch carefully and make sure they're not doing anything obviously, outrageously daft but you let them find themselves and if there are problems they bring their problems to you and you sit down and you quietly talk about it, there's not shouting, no I say you've got to do this because I am your parent! That's obviously her, that was her answer. that's her answer yes. You just sort of wa you know, argue it an I know. and and he says too he had to admit that he's lazy. Who Neil? Neil yeah and he said my mother is a lazy cow! Yeah but don't you think he he he finds, I mean if alright y y you're not ex always exactly like your parents but if you've bro , if he's brought up, his mother's lazy Yeah. so I mean you know, that's part of his life isn't it? Yes. I mean it's he won't know better. This is what I said to him this is what I said to him an but he said I I see you with all your get up and go so I didn't make any reply to that. No. I thought, well let it sink in. That's right. And I came in one day a few days ago an and running around like a bee on heat with erm cries of oh I've got so much to do and no time left in which to do it and I went ha I said yes, if you got up early, you know ! That's right he cos he is very bad on timing isn't he? Shocking! I mean, like you say, you ought you know you ought to buy her a talking alarm clock for Christmas. Oh yes, he's got to have an alarm clock. Or a radio one Yes. so tha that would actually Yes. the noise. Of course, I've I've left him in the charge of of not I haven't asked Paul to take him under his wing over the weekend, but I've left Neil a list of things that I would like done. Mm. Like get back the dustbins which took them out but she didn't bring them back at the end of the drive erm and I hope that Paul tells him off! And make him do it, do it. An and you know, says, look Neil you've got to get your ideas together because that's what Neil has lacked, he's lacked masculine influence. Mm It's no good now, I mean you've been very to Neil over the last year or so and I mean now it's time to get his act together. Oh yes. She can't keep on No. I mean I mean I've stopped I've I I don't any longer get up and get anybody's breakfast for them. Nope but if you get, you know I get out I get out of bed at eight o' clock when the last of the lodgers has gone well the last of the two lodgers Mm but you can't gone you know,y y there's no more now, I mean, running around er of being unemployed the thi Neil is the third lodger, of course tha who get's out of the pit at about eleven o' clock in the morning ! Mm. But er that's from now on Neil has got to carry th the responsibility for his own actions. That's right. I'm not going to bail him out by jumping into the car. And really he's got to, I mean, you know, alright with work wise I mean he's got to take even if, I mean the kids these days, I mean, even at Neil's age, I mean you know, I've come the conclusion now these kids they think the world owes them something! Yes they do. They're not like in our day I know no. I mean they really think I mean it's like Lee he's doing this work experience an yes it's great an it's a bit boring, mum and Dave said Lee, you know wake up! Yes. This is reality! Yes. This is what people go to work in an office Quite. work nine to five thirty. Yes yes. He said we I tell you what I didn't like, mum an I said what? He said, making the tea, I said tough! Yes, exactly! I said what do you think you go Yeah. into your I said you go into a job, your earning Mm. twenty five grand a year an and you're sat at that desk and you're boss? I said it doesn't it work like that Lee! No. I said you're the general dogsbody! Quite quite. He said oh God! And I said we That's the way life goes you know I said that is life! Yeah mm. He said, God, he said I didn't realize it's like that, I said, no you didn't! Do you do you think they get a false idea from the television or something,wha what is it? Well I dunno I thi I think the teachers to be honest, Jean, no you Ah! know th the teachers in this I mean you know I don't know, I mean so some of the teachers have got got really weird ideas! Have they? I mean, you know,it it's unbelievable! But Ooh I'd like to know what their weird ideas are. Well it's just erm ah I don't know, I mean there's there's certain things I mean,it it's like this maths I mean, I I spoke to her erm and she said yes Lee had come on and everything in his maths and I said we the thing is, I said, knowing Lee has difficulty in in th l in the high level maths, yes you don't want to drop him, but surely I said I'm willing to help in my spare time, Lee's willing to do it and I said can't you show Lee I said I'm not I wasn't trying to tell her No. you know, that what you were told No, no, no, no no and I think Yes well I think I told him a wrong, you see, there were two there there are two ways of tackling it and I don't think the way I told him is what they want for the examination purposes, at all! Oh I don't know he under , when you that told he understood it a lot more than when she said it and she sort of went all She's probably trying to explain them in a very complicated way of doing maths. No she answered me, she said well I haven't got time to sit down, explain it to them, they just gotta, if they're in a high level they should be able to grasp it and I Frankly I think that's very bad that's no attitude! you know, that is no attitude! That's bad! You know the fact is they've got to erm be explained. Yes. Erm I mean, Carla I can't fault her teachers. No, no at that church one she has learnt so much erm I mean this to speak French, now she speaking it in three weeks! She's excellent isn't she yes. You know, it's unbeliev Three weeks! three weeks, that's all she's been doing it. That's marvellous. You know, I mean but this teacher won't stand no nonsense and I said to Lee y you were at it three years before you could speak like Carla speaks it! You know she has learnt so much! Erm i in this school, I mean Yes. they're very strict I mean Yes. you know but I think half of Lee's it there's no discipline No ha but then and when you try t in the past when I tried to find some way of imposing discipline, there is no way because quite rightly, you're not allowed to strike children, I never wanted to and I I hardly ever did at one school where there was a marvellous spirit of give and take I used to whip off my little black velvet slipper occasionally and whack some of the larger boys about the top of the thigh. just for fun, you know but I'm not a believer in using your fists, you ought to be using your brain to teach with but there were no there are no sanctions, if you say you must stay behind after school, you have to send a letter home and half the parents will write back and say my son or daughter is not staying after school and that is that! Mm. And that's their right and so you think of something else we you're not allowed to take them out of a favourite lesson, you're not allowed to say you are going to miss your football or a P E P E teachers and the football teachers, quite rightly, say if you can't keep discipline in your class why why should we be penalized ? Mm that's right. And er you're pretty helpless really. You are. You see the only way that you can really discipline them is when you have a school where the rules have been very, very strict from the moment that they went into that school and they have had their noses held to the grindstone with work up to their brows and they just don't think of being tiresome and anybody who is tiresome is pulled out and put in a special room on their own, called a sin bin an which is rather boring and made to work even harder! Mm but no what I'm sort of, getting back, I mean, you know, I don't I think it's the kids I mean, I dunno why? Whether they have too much or what they have but, I mean they're just they just think everybody owes them something, and it's like Neil, I mean, to me I mean I can't see why he can't get off his backside and go and work in a supermarket but it's not the job they want, the same answer I said to I think at the moment Brenda he would take any job if he could get one. He would take if offered it? Yes I think so I There's a lot of I mean it's like To be fair to be fair to him I think that he would erm he's set his heart on going and working at the lawn mower place on the production line Mm. and he isn't in my opinion really considering half the other jobs, but he has said that he wants that and by the mercy of providence this business of Lee being flung out by Andy and being put back onto the into the job centre coincides with my being very tight on money. Mm. You'll notice that I've said to you we're going to run the . That's right, yeah. And I'm going to pay it back with lodgers money really. Mm. I mean my dear, I said to Paul, Paul yesterday was was babbling on about if Karen would take him back and I said Paul I shall be extremely displeased if you ever leave this house to go back to Karen, you know o after only being with me for something like three or four weeks, I said you'll never come back again I said I'm not going to be messed about like that! No that's right! What did he say to that? Oh I'm counting on you, lodgers money ! That's right. And I am Brenda! Yeah, but thing is I mean, you know, there's a lot of kids out there, I mean I've know with, sort of, Lee's friend you know, okay, with us I mean with Lee o okay we don't I've often said to him, why don't you get a Saturday job? And he said no and I said okay, fair enough but then, you know you can say to Lee, well if you want something now you're gonna have to work Yes. and then he will, he'll go and do something. Yes mm let's go here I won't talk. Erm Erm but thing is there's a lot lot of like Lee's friends and that and they say well I couldn't work in a shoe shop and I wouldn't work in a, and I say why? Quite. Well they say, well would you do jobs you don't like? Yes if I need the money. The the only job which I told Neil I do not expect him to take is working for waste disposal because he did that, this time last year and before he started he was full of big talk about you make a lot of money and you get a lot of tips at Christmas he found that you do not make a lot of money and you do not get generous tips at Christmas Mm. and he used to come home looking as white as a sheet sick to the teeth and he used to just go to bed and collapse in a heap, he isn't strong enough to do it and it's pointless for him to try but other than that he can do anything he fancies. Mm. I vir I just got Neil, I mean he No but I mean he has had a bad start and hasn't had the example of either a mother or a father who understands the necessity of But there are a lot of work. that have had the support but they won't get off their backsides and it tends to be this ge generation. Well you know when my son was eighteen he and his friends were entertaining each other to pocket parties at which they were working out what University courses they were going to apply for Mm. and what they wanted was the easiest ones and they came up with the answer economics Gerald simply, we Ge Gerry and I put our heads together and went bib bib bib bib bib, you know as good parents do and we both presented him with a fait accompli you either take an engineering degree, we don't care what sort or you go out to work in a bank because economics you will not get a first because you are not reader and t to get a first in economics, which is what you'll need if you're gonna make any money out of it Mm and have a decent life to get a first or either a two one in economics you have got to read a very great deal, you've got to be a reader, a student a taker of notes, a writer of essays and we said that is not you so within two Mm. minutes he was looking through all the advertisements for civil engineering . That's right but you had the encouragement, who's that waving? Who where? That car in front I dunno, he was waving, I just hope it wasn't waving at us. That one E E? I dunno. The Fiesta? Maybe she wasn't waving at us No it was only for a minute. Oh. No, no, no, she's not Yeah. I think she's realized she's made a mistake she was waving away . Oh yes, yes, yes. And thought it was somebody else. Yes. But er no I mean there's th there's that they've just, you know I mean some of the kids I don't know where we were going me and Dave somewhere or other we were and there was some kids an and their attitude, you know, it's well why should we do this, you know Mm. this isn't fair, I mean life's not fair. I think it's the television as much as anything else. Yeah probably yeah tha that does I mean I'm appalled at the way that teenagers are still being shown on the television as they were twenty years ago able to rule the roost because they did. Mm. They did erm twenty years ago a teenager, a girl of sixteen could leave home she could pick up a job just like that! Mm. And, you know get reasonable money and there were there were still rented rooms of a sort, but she could find somewhere, of a sort, to live with other kids and they could do what they jolly well liked! I dunno it's I mean you know it's But those days are well and truly over! And I don't think they'll ever come back! For one thing I I don't think that the next generation of parents are going to stand it because with the , cos I told you what, what I said Neil about erm when er when he was a father I said if you had a pretty fifteen year old daughter would you want to have some rough oaf taking her down a back alley and screwing her? No I bloody wouldn't, he said cor that's awful!and it it's just what he's been doing . Doing that's it it's alright for him to do it! okay for him but nobody's going to touch his little girl. Ah but erm Or my own boy. no I mean I I do really feel sorry Neil because people wa it it it makes me cross because people won't give Neil the benefit of the doubt. No they won't they won't You know and if they just won't give him a chance. No they won't And I mean the fact you know y you can see his point, I mean Yeah. Harry hasn't given up totally I mean he hasn't No he would've done if you hadn't, but he says this I mean he feels like it, obviously, like with Oh yes. his driving. Yes. What's the point? I've got Yep. no confidence who cares, you know, whether I pass or that I mean Well I did we we talked about this, you see Mary Anne,half way through the conversation er Neil went out of the room so that I could to Mary Ann and I said towards the end of my conversation, you know, Mary Ann you're a very wise person, give me some advice I said, I told her about Neil not wanting no not doing well on the driving, although he can drive she said he doesn't want to do it she said don't hassle him so when he came downstairs I said I've been talking to Mary Ann and she sends you her love and because, of course, you know, we've got a grandson, you know she had a son, my That's right, yeah. grandson is about that age and very sympathetic she is erm I said er Mary Ann says she doesn't know what the point is, you don't really want to do it he said, she's right, I don't he said, in a way I do, in another way I don't, I said You see well we can't go into the reasons for that but I said let's respect the reasons I said if that's how you feel I said, you're a man you you must make your own decisions I said probably in a few months time you'll come Well I don't know why, I was drawn to that colour. It's that's my colour, isn't it? Yes. In your got my fork instead of a spoon didn't I? Oh Ooh! So it it's Paul has the other lodger gone yet? Philip? Yeah. No, he's going pretty soon, I think. He's a pain though is he? Mm I went into his room and yet again he has got wet washing hanging up inside that room. What in his bedroom? Mm. How does he put it out then? Where did you buy that top you've got on ? British Home Stores. It's lovely. Mm. Is that the one, when you were with me? Mm. Looks really nice on. Mm. So have you seen this chap any more? Mark? This new man is his name Mark? Little o little old one erm when did I see him? Sunday. Sunday? We went over to Lavenham. Where did you meet him at? Marriage agency. What Dateline? No Destiny, a local one. Oh you're not with Dateline any more? No no good! Not for me this local one is absolutely splendid! Is it? Mm You ca What about You can talk to the man who's running it. Is Ron still going with his ? Oh yes, he's still with Trudy. Do you reckon he'll end up getting married? No. No what on her side or his? Her side she won't have it. Won't she? No I've warned Ron he's such an obstinate so and so, he won't be told! I said that I think you'll find, Ron that Trudy if she married would have to give up her late husband's occupational widow's pension so that the way you're going on now, where you go and stay with her for two or three days at a time is far better oh no, no, no, she'll be able to keep her pension I said I very much doubt it then I said people are so jealous that if she does marry you and he doesn't tell the firm I bet that one of her dear neighbours will oh no they're all very nice people round where she lives, I thought there's no good arguing with Ron! Would she lose he pension then if she got married? Well mostly, yes. Careful when you put your cup . If you haven't, if you worked if you haven't worked at th sorry? Careful when you pick that up, it's ever so slippery. Oh my God! If you get a a pension based on the fact that you're your late husband's widow when you are no longer your late husband's widow, but somebody's wife they don't have to pay you that pension. Oh so I suppose Trudy doesn't know either? No. Actually I can't blame her. No and she doesn't want Ron to move into her house because there is no way that he could. The thing is he's so isn't he? Yes. It doesn't, sort of, change anything Has he organized his ? Sorry? Will he organize his ? No not really no it's still a great big muddly tip! You have seen it, haven't you? No. Oh oh you must! Cos how old is he? Seventy. He's quite good for seventy, in he? Oh very oh yes. The thing is now, you see there's no way would you change him? No. But he wouldn't want it, would he? No. This is lovely! Mm! I mean poor old Ron! He's been going with her quite a while, though has he? Yes, oh yes. So she's just happy with that relationship, is she? Yes in fact, to be perfectly honest with you the relationship is a bit more than she wants Ron is a bit of a pain I told him over and over again not to push his luck, I said for goodness sake, Ron, be grateful for what you've got apparently she doesn't like to make love with the lights on I said well if that's what she doesn't like that's what she doesn't like, you're not going to change a woman of sixty eight! Oh the way she and her husband went on that's all in the past I said yes, but it's there was an awful lot of it. That's right he should really, especially tha at her age! Mm. He should, sort of, honour her wishes shouldn't he? He should. So has he all gone to his gr mother's at Christmas? Mm yes I told Paul that he can bring a lady up at Christmas-time. Is he not going home then? No and erm I'm leaving a turkey in the freezer,an Paul is quite good at cooking standard cooking. Yeah he'll he'll I remember he cooks for himself, doesn't he an ? Mm, mm. He I mean I know he eats you out of house and home, but he's quite a good lodger isn't he? He's a very good lodger Mm. yes last week he helped me turn the garage out he took all the rubbish left over from the tip down to the tip. So did Nev come and do your kitchen? Well almost I got the cupboard done and I got the tiles lying by the side of the hob, but they haven't yet been cut to fit erm and glued down but one of these day's he'll get around to it. He's doing a lot in his house? Mm well Jackie rang me Thursday evening and said you know, then my life is get up early let the dogs out or whatever stagger into school stagger back do a meal do some marking fall into bed. That's a lot. That's her life. Where's she going Christmas? She's going home I think she's not having Benita and her mother up. Are they? They still can't do it. What will Paul, just go and visit his mo Neil go and visit mum and then come back, cos although Paul's there Mm. it's better isn't Mm. it? Yes that's right. Are you gonna have a tree up? Yes didn't buy any new ornaments when I was up in Liverpool cos I didn't see anything that I particularly liked but what Carla has done gives me an idea for making some extra bits for the tree Where did you get that from? Bernard Singers the what the netting? Mm. Yeah that's all it is all it is is like Mm like netting. Charlatan it's called. Oh that's what it's called? Mm. Mm ninety nine pence a meter. Mm. Erm Singers do every colour, it's just the fact she wanted to give friends a present and I said Mm mm you know,it it you can't afford to to No. do it No. and I said to her one night, and we bought those bags of sweets, it was ninety nine pee for about forty Mm. and I said just put two or three in each Mm that's enough for Mm. a child Mm yeah. and she had great fun, we Mm. did them in an evening. Mm, mm. And I didn't use ribbon cos it would have worked expensive for her I just used that erm I saw. curly stuff the for her. Yeah mm. But for kids, I mean Mm. they're only gonna throw Yeah. it away, aren't they? Mm oh yes. And it'll be a you know, a waste, ribbon, so I Mm. thought I'll just put that on it. Mm. And she thinks they're wonderful. Mm, they are Well I was just thinking what a dozen would look like hanging on my tree. Yeah they're so simple. Mm. I mean, all I use I mean, if I was making them for somebody I would use about four or five layers and then I would put a piece of lace of braid or something at the top mm. just to make, if I was making them really Mm mm but for the tree I thought well I'm gonna make some I'm gonna make six, like the colouring we did erm the erm wa black, red and white Yeah. on the top and then in erm go to three circles and then all different colour you know, erm . What, another skirt? That's right, yeah It's really hot isn't it? Mm. Erm but you see these si I mean, Debs do it as well all that that netting. Yeah. mm. But I think I would do four and the green's quite nice they do cos I've got a white Christmas, you see Mm. so I've gotta think what colour Mm. Have you still got your artificial or did you have new real? I'm going to buy an artificial this year I'm sick of the real ones. But I mean I bought my artificial my white one ten years ago now. Mm. I remember when I bought it it was about twenty five quid Mm. which was a lot of money Mm. then. Yes. But it owes me nothing now. That's right. I think if you get a decent one Mm. it lasts a long time, dunnit? Yes they do. But I I couldn't get over you know, I say, I had a quick look the other at Marks you know, to even do the Christmas serviettes they're doing a lot more and they said if people aren't buying as much on the clothes side erm so they they've come down, I mean now I can get erm come over, and I said you've never looked at Marks I said you never buy clothes, I said have a look in Marks, I said they do some really lovely Lovely clothes. and he saw two sweaters in there that he really liked Mm. and they were nineteen ninety nine. Ah. It's a good thing too Mm. cos I would always thought Marks were that it was one day Mhm you know? Yes. And usually . I know. but erm filling innit? Mm very. Look at that little boy there in the leather coat and the little glasses I think it looks lovely. Ah yes! Mm. It's ideal though, isn't it, when y I suppose you go and do your shopping an somewhere to stop. Yes Well I'm just going to have a little nibble at the end of that. So what about erm so where are you going, to Johns' or Mary Anns' for the holiday? To Johns' Johns' ooh! He's having Mary Ann over and my sister-in-law Rosemary. These are the serviettes Who's coming over? Rosemary Ah! my sister-in-law. How old's she now then? Erm if I'm sixty five she must be sixty seven two years. Has ana Anorak gone down well in Stowmarket? Very well I don't haven't worn it a lot in Stowmarket I Oh. keep it for best. Mm Are they in the up your way? No. No? No. Re an article in the paper about and it was saying the mar in Marble Arch that it it's got the top rating apparently. No not surprising. It said Marble Arch was good erm but because you can't park here it gave a that you could do like three or four loads load your car up, come back, load your car up Mm. where in Marble Arch, nine times out of ten you've gotta get round the back to pick it up Yep yep and who and so bothers! That's it. I certainly couldn't can't drive that well. Oh it was really those are flapjacks. Ooh! ooh! ooh! ooh! And that's jolly good, isn't it? Mm try it in a minute not greasy at all that flapjack. No, mm It's nice. Lovely. So when are you seeing this chap again then? Well he phoned me last night and he's going to phone me again on Sunday afternoon, we get on so well, Brenda I can just the imagine the pair of us tucked up into a four foot bed! Whether any good would come of it is another matter ! Is he, what's he looking for, is he does he wanna relationship or does he want . We haven't even talked about that we just talk and talk about anything and everything. Is he divorced or widowed? Widower. Widower? Mm divorced men of fifty five and upwards are bad news. How old's this guy then? Seventy five ! And he's he's a little old man and I think he's smashing! How long ago did he lose his wife then? Erm a year. Does he talk about her still? Mhm. A lot? Mm quite naturally, you know doesn't worry me. But he's not comparing? No I don't think so. Cos some of these are, sort of, like they go on and on and there, sort of Oh my dear some of them are comparing you with Racquel Welsh or whatever, you know you get the impression they're looking down their nose, as much to say oh how dreadful for me to have to be seen with this old person ! But he he's nice? Mm he really is, he's kind Where do you go out and he's not mean, so many of these old men are mean, they're crafty and cautious and mean! He took me out last Sunday and I said as we were driving over to Lavenham, I said an early would be much appreciated, I said I cooked the Sunday Lunch for my lodgers, but I haven't, in fact, had any myself he said you've got to have a high tea, he said you must have a proper meal and he ordered up salad and a a ham salad and have this and have that and have the other, where as some of them like this chap Gerald who was erm sent me by one of the other agencies the first time we went out he took me to a meal and he obviously felt that quite enough, after that he used to come out to see me after he'd had his meal meanness, hanging onto money! Wasn't going to waste money on a woman of around his own age! Tesco's as you see it's got the er er the go ahead to er open Sunday's hasn't it? Yes yes Now , is a big thing. Mm. We co we were horrified with erm we got thing through the door like erm this one was like a survey thing saying they wanted to, you know er the cricket amongst others they wanna put a Tesco's superstore there. Oh no! And anyway it's in the paper in the paper this week and they've been saying that er the outrage the residents! Yeah yeah. I mean, like Dave said, I mean, alright we could perhaps do with a superstore, but not the . Not there no, no no. I mean that's a bit daft really! You know who it is that wants to make money on that? That's that dreadful man,! Councillor he's had his greedy little eyes on that area for years. Has he? Mm. Yes because I know, do you remember we were gonna buy a house down there Mm. Mm. but then when we went into it they said erm obviously look at the development plans and it would go ahead eventually for something there, they didn't state what. No. I mean it might be whatever year Well I went to a a big meeting round about nineteen eighty five Yeah I remember you said and they he wanted to where Marge lived remember The Grove Mm. They wanted to That whole bit? raise that and have that developed as a road, the other one, would be closed Yeah. and developed would be destroyed and another,an an another big road put in it's place and he they they were after Horsell Moor which is where they're going to put the Tesco's. Mm. That area's called Horsell Moor I don't think they made it I bet though, do you? Well I hope not! We do need one. Yes, we do we do need another store in Woking of that kind. But they're are not Not there! how long has Anthony been there, twenty Ah thirty years? Thirty years, easily, I mean it wa , it was already established when we arrived in nineteen fifty nine. But Dave said Tesco's can't do, what they did they did it at Weybridge, they said let us buy your sight you say where you wanna sight and then they and we will build what you Mm. want on that sight Mm. for you. Mm, mm yes. But as John still got a lot of work on, and Mary Ann? Yes. Is it getting ? No, but Mary Ann's a public servant and they're pretty well prot protected erm John's firm is simply doing extremely well in spite of the recession. Yes right. I mean they're very pleased with him because he's the front man having appeared on the Anneka Rice thing and being kissed by Anneka Rice in the full view of millions I mean John can do no wrong by r by Johnathan I doubt it. Did he manage to see get it did he video it? Yes Mary Ann's done it. Oh Mary Ann did it, he'll be able to see it. Mm. What did he think of Anneka Rice? Oh you know she is what she is what she'll be. Is that's right. Vital, lively, attractive. Yes. Yeah. Did you see you with that gas that advert she did with that poor woman! Yes. Yes. I don't blame the woman for doing as much as possible on television with in those advertisements because I think that woman have got only a short life in those ads because she'd get bored with them . Wonder why ? Well she she's she gets up and does things doesn't she. Yeah that's what I mean, they say ooh can't stand this woman sh but I mean, I don't know why. Jealousy I think. Probably. Hell of a lot of I mean jealousy. she's got a lot of get and go That she has she has. this is taping now so what was erm Libertys did they have it? Re remind me tomorrow I must take those twenty vouchers Mm. to erm Debs Mm. and Jenny was saying she went to Debenhams yesterday they had a twelve day spectacular at eight thirty to eight thirty at night there was clothes they were half price plus you got a third of ten per cent off. Yes. But I think a all the sales will be off before Christmas. I I looked at the fabrics in the Libertys Yeah. and if I can't get want I want at the Famlingham Textile Centre which is excellent when I next need fabrics I shall come up, I will come up to London and I'll go to Libertys, but I will have measured first of all to within an inch as to what I want because It is expensive. Well some of the stuff is eighteen pounds a meter but if you think of the cost of a a well fitting jacket for somebody like myself, it's astronomical! You know what you should have done while you was up there this time you should have took asked for some samples. Yes, my dear, I I did not feel well enough just No do you think that they will? I didn't even think about, yes they will, they'll give you a little cutting, I suppose. Yeah, but not only that, I mean, they will now all these shops are doing like a mail order That's interesting. and they would actually send and I know why because erm John Lewis in London erm Jackie wanted some fabric and she'd seen it up there and Harrods and erm she found out she didn't have her card with her, just her Barclaycard said would you post this we wou we'll have to charge you, like, two pound Mm, mm. fifty packaging, but that's fine she said Well yes it's very good. well I couldn't get up there because she know Quite. park Quite. and she wanted sort of so many meters of each Mm yeah and the the they sent it to her. Yes. And I suppose you could treat Worth going. people this year, if they'd done all their Christmas shopping mail order. Oh yes yes. Rather than, sort of go round themselves I reckon we'll take that with us. Good idea! Might want them for a cup of tea . Yeah. I think we should have got away with a small Coke, shouldn't we? Mm. That's nice of them. It's so big! We've been thrilled with this work experience cos was Dave originally had these five days off taping and he said no, he said, you know you're so tired, have a little rest we'll go up I'll go up on the train only to get to the Selhurst Park he's got four or five train journeys Yeah mm and he has to get, like Woking to Surbiton Surbiton to Clapham Junction Yeah. Clapham Junction to S S erm Thornton Heath and he has Thornton Heath to Selhurst Park. Mm yes. So it's five trips Mm. there's no easier Mm. way No no round it and like Dave said it would've cost him, sort of, seven or eight pound a day in petrol Mm quite and he managed to get a ticket for a week Mm. for fifteen Mm. pounds. Yes, yes quite You know it Yes. but erm I bought sort of, quarter past seven he's had to leave in the morning to get there and then not getting home to, sort of , seven o'clock Dave picks up from the station and I think Part of life. and I, sort of, said to him it's he's enjoyed it, he hasn't, sort of , moaned. No. He he just moans about the fact of making tea! Mm. That just made us laugh because Mm quite I said to Dave, they've got no idea the youngsters, have they? They don't No. no idea what so ever because erm he starts on this on Monday. Oh God! He's got three er he's got the , two languages the three sciences, biology, chemistry an erm what's the other one? Science. Mm. there and the maths . Mm. So but I think with this I mean this homework, that's the only thing I don't believe in because they've gotta revise it which is brilliant, I mean,at the moment but they also give them three hours homework a night! They're not thinking what they're doing, are they, they're No I can't talk overloading I mean Jim was saying that Winston has given them two weeks off so Yes yes. alright I don't two weeks is too long I think Mm. because obviously like Kim very soon after revising she's going out. Yes, yes. Erm but, I mean, you know, I think they need to s they should say, no homework for this week, because they've already Mm. got a lot Mm. just go through revision Yes. you know, two weeks before Yes. or something, no time Mm. off school, Mm. but total revision an I mean, the other night he sat in, he came home at four o'clock and he was up till nine thirty just doing homework. Mm. He's hardly got time to revise much cos he's so tired! Mm. And erm he he said it's stupid, he said they were given all this and it's the homework it's nothing to do with the revision you've got to do in his the exams! Yeah, ha ha ha. You know, it's sort of, totally different. Mm. Are we fit or? Just about. Do you want or would like No. another cigarette? You have another cigarette yeah. I'm shattered! You'll be alright, when you get I'll be fine once once I've had another five minutes. Yeah. Ooh! Well you'll sleep well now always do. Yeah . Did you still put stilton cheese in that roll or did you want that? No. Oh! Is that it all or or did you try it? I Haven't needed try, Brenda, I can't I mean at one time I'd have devoured that. Yeah and me look how much I've eaten. No, no I can't I just can't eat so I'm not forcing myself to eat, what I'm trying to do is only to eat the right things and I must start vitamin supplements I think I've got the age when I probably need that, I mean, this cold is a warning to me that my immune system is not as strong as it ought to be, I shouldn't have had another cold so soon after getting rid of one! Crikey, cos the last time you were down you had that stinker didn't you? Yes yes and this one isn't as bad, but I shouldn't be having this one at all! At all, no you need either a multi-vitamin or vitamin c. Probably a bit of both. Do you not take any any at all? No, no I don't the time has come I think! Ah but tell me what happened about your fracas with Peter? Oh yeah, well I won't tape. Yeah, I said, I honestly can't believe, yeah, I said I though we had a good working relationship Mm mm and you know why? And he said well I'm pretty sure, but he said fifty, fifty and I said to him, well I said you know, you think about it but I'd already, sort of, made up my mind that I wasn't gonna, sort of , next year anyway No, no. that that that is it! I mean As soon as his Yeah yeah. I said because, you know, I've had enough Yeah. of us being used over and over! Erm what difference will it make to your life to have Carla at the secretary. I think I'm not she will then come in and let herself in, I have to be in at three Of course, yes, yes yes o'clock Yes. and for somebody to let her in, but Mm. when she gets she's actually in thirteen Yes, that's right. so she's old enough to have a key. Yes yes. Yes, I still would like to be in the house, but Yeah. if I'm not It's not disastrous. she's old enough That's right. to let herself in. And you can work locally pick up jobs locally. That's right, you know, and I still pop in. I mean by by the time all that happens then that'll be next October. Yes it's in Well October. by then I may have sold the house and, I mean, as soon as I sell the house mm. You can have a couple of thousand for a diner. Yeah. You know you said that Rob is very good on Yes he is but the thing is cars at the moment are so cheap They are. I can pick them up They are. because, I mean it it's like anything at the moment it it Yes. it's sold so cheap. Mm. That erm, made me laugh because he said to his secretary erm you know, I I honestly don't think your time is she is so down in the mouth. And he had,did didn't you say to him, haven't you got eyes in your head, couldn't you see how Well ill I was! still I think it's the fact erm you know y you're not she's got a problem on her mind she's not been well you're not taking her serious Mm mm you ought to cut the leash a bit Mm. which cos I think Mm. and Mm. she's obviously, you know, when you think what she does for you, marvellous! Mm, mm, mm. Erm and she said an also I think she wants to ask you something and you know she asked you before and you've taken no notice! Mm mm. And and he said well do you think I ought to give her, you know, what about two pound a week? Ah! And she said well look all I'm, all I'm Brenda! saying is that, all I'm is erm why don't you erm ke don't think of the money because how valuable is she to you? Quite quite. And it it really shook him up and she turned round and said he turned round and said, very valuable. Mm, of course. And he said well happens, she said what happened if she walked out tomorrow? He said I could never replace her he said e nobody is to she is he said I just couldn't, he said I'd you know, I'd pay what I'd have to Yeah. he said we'll be realistic Mm. he said, you know fifteen pounds a week, and I said to him what about the petrol? I said, you know, it's costing fifteen pound a week in a , a least and you you're you're paying ten and he said, no he said, he said I think that's ample, he said. It isn't because I keep on going down and filling up the metro with ten pounds worth of petrol and I'm not making a a trip back and forth to work every day. Go on, I put that in on Wednesday and I've got to about a quarter of a tank again. Mm. So it'll be Mm. tomorrow I put it in . And it's an automatic, isn't it? They use it up. They use a lot yeah the ch I put it in my I mean, I said yesterday to him, we've got the decorators in and then co they turned round and said he is meant to be a businessman and they said he cannot believe they've never met tha such a penny pinching guy Mm. in all our life! Mm yeah yeah. They come in, he said somebody with a house like this, the money you've got, the cars that got Mm, mm. and he turned round penny pinching, saying that you know, why has this cost me thirty quid, why can't I Ooh! get it for twenty? Oh yes, yes They nearly walked out last week! Mm. They just honestly couldn't believe that Yeah. somebody could be like that. But some people are appallingly mean did I tell you about that Ned being done out of six hundred pounds by an indian doctor and a her husband? No. He put in a kitchen and he thought there was something funny about these people erm they didn't want to give him money up front for the fabric, you know, the woods and things and he wasn't asking the full amount anyway and he said, you know, a things are very tight in business and I do not want to run up any more debts if you will let me have some of cash, some of the cash fo for the wood as soon as the wood's delivered I'll come and do the job, it's not as though your money is going to be tied up in any way and there was a bit of a face pulling and saw this woman drop to, sort of, always hovering around always putting her motty in and erm when th when the job was nearly completed madam steps forward with the cries of that isn't quite right and that isn't quite right and Nev was putting hours doing nit-picking fussing about getting things absolutely perfect got it absolutely perfect but when it came to the final bill they knocked off six hundred because there was the tiniest little scratch on one of the panels! Oh he couldn't do anything about it? No it was fi it was fixed in. Perhaps they're fiddling Ah. a bit. Yes. That's one way to put it, anyway and he said that and he said he lost out on six hundred pounds? Six hundred yes. Did he not, sort of, think to take them to court? I suppose it would have cost him more in court fees! Well I think he can go through the small claims court for five hundred but I suppose six hundred was just over, it's probably something very crafty that they thought up between them, this pair! It's awful isn't it? Tis awful I was taught as a child in catechism the labourer is worthy of his hire there are four sins that cry out to heaven for justice one of them is a oppressing the widow and orphan and the other is defrauding the labourer of his hire because the labourer is worthy of his hire that's a sin that cries to heaven for justice, that's what I was taught as a child. I bet he was really, sort of angry? Oh they were, they felt sick! But the er it's does he still see them or? Oh no, I mean the these were clients and they could never be friends after doing that I've come to the conclusion you can either keep your money or you can keep your friends, but you're not going to do both. No. In life. Right, shall we make tracks? Yep. and your instrument panel started showing that the wheels had fallen off and one wheel was on fire first thing we had to think was are the reading correct! Get out quick! Yeah ! That's it. Ah he flew a thing called the flying coffin! And you had get the two people who were at the back, you have to get them out before you landed because when you when you brought the flaps up if they were still in this little bay you would squash them to death and one day his dials showed that he had, in fact,squashed them to death ! Oh! But he hadn't. He hadn't? No. Come on car, don't start playing on me now when I want to get home . Ooh don't, at the thought of tea! So it's like that without, I mean, with Carla, I mean, you can't you know, you just can't think when you've gotta I mean she would have been bored and she wouldn't have looked at the gifts. Of course, poor little child! No! No! Oh you're clever. Ah ah dear me . I can't get out u any o another other way! No oh dear Neil said yesterday he was running he was running in thr in through the hall way with karate suit or something he was muttering to himself and he said smoking a healthy, dirty habit, it's expensive and it shortens your life I love it! No it's dreadful they are give it up but I said I with my nerves at the moment. Oh no an it it's it's like slimming nobody should try to slim when they're feeling tense and agitated and worried about things. I'll go up Tescos way sure it gets busy over here, dunnit though? Yes well I mean it's not packed though, the shops weren't I mean tomorrow morning it'll be m murder there it'll be Yes. people with kids, see at night time Yes. they don't Yes. come with the kids. No, no I'm looking forward to coming back here in the Spring and having another go at clothes for you and me I'm going to save like mad. Might have won the Jean Oh I in the Spring. I should I should have some idea about selling the house. We all know, sort of, what's, sort of , happening. That's right. Cos, I mean you've got the feeling that, didn't you that Neil might move on. Nope I don't think he'll leave me until he marries. No I don't apart from getting married I don't think he'll leave you! No. I th I think though, you know, after a year or two if he'd moved away an if he moved out the area he would then break with his mother. Yes It's the fact, that's how I see it. I'm seriously the fact thinking mother was, sort , up in Wisbeach Yeah. and I was in Surrey. That's right. A lot depends on what point I sell my house if I What price you get. Yeah, if I sell at a time when there's still a recession on and you see somebody has to get my they had a visit perhaps that was somebody that actually bought a house, not she not She they haven't to sold the house they had a visit from a Bank Manager her preferential mortgage treatment as part of their immonuments they always have had That's right. the bank seems to pay the a cripplingly low salary demand that everybody dresses in in Saville Row, but you could buy a house on a something like two and half percent mortgage well it's not like that now, but it's still still get a preferential mortgage and this banking person man was looking around only three or four weeks ago, but you see a lot depends on your luck as to whether you pick up a a very good buyer. Is your friends have they had anybody look at theirs yet? They had a couple of people round, but no no nibbles, or I think, yes, I think somebody a silly offer because of course all the property pages and places like that, Daily Telegraph are urging everybody, go on put in an offer for a house, put in a silly offer! Yeah. Which is all very well, but nobody's phoning in to accept a silly offer. That's right. This is why, at the moment, I'm being a bit cautious about remaining in my cavity I don't want to find myself in the situation that I'm held to sell. Mm. That's why I'm so keen, I shall I tell you what my plan is, at the moment but as soon as the the uncourteous Bill has decided to move into his new house new flat, rather, I am going to take my ensuite back yeah, I'm going to go back into my bedroom and Neil can still use the ensuite shower cos he's got the tip of the idea that he's got to come in clothed and knock on the door cos last time I was in my bedroom he asked if he could use the shower,situation he'd you know, and I'd let him after all, it's not as though my be , there's a door between my bedroom and the Shower, that's right. the ensuite and er and then I will have three lodgers, I will have Neil Mind you Neil's not worried about parading around with nothing on, is he? Oh well I made him worry Mm. my goodness, I have!. Don't you like his new dressing gown, he was in Love that last time? yes. What was he like, when you took cos you took the boxer shorts Yes. dressing gown and some all silly bits, oh no sweets biscuits Yes. was it? some money, you spent on me ooh! I bet he was like a big child, was he? Yes, of course he is, he is a poor child I hate to think what Christmas is like for some people. Do you think she'll buy him something I have no doubt wha did I not tell you about the fact that I hit the roof when he said that she has said that when he was twenty one, she was going to buy him a Vauxhall Chevette. Sh she's going to? Yes. Well why didn't she pay for his lessons then? Well that's I say that's when he wanted help. I said it's sh I said, I he said don't you think it's a nice gesture? I think that is showing off! I said I How he's supposed to tax and insure it and run it?have said! Well that's I said that's what I said an and I said where's she going to, where are we going to put it. Just because you've passed your test doesn't mean Oh I I mean, it's years normally before someone can get a car. You can tell what sort of a You can use fool the woman is! She is dreadful! Does it strike an answering chord with your mother? . I have no doubt that if they owned their council house they would now be very busily selling and buying and selling and buying . She's sh she's a bitch, she's a oh has she still got that horse? Oh I have no doubt of course I never I despise the woman so heartily that I never ask any questions about it. How does Neil get on with y Philip? Very well, they all three get on well together. Oh they do? Yes. I was very surprised about Tony though. Yeah. Cos I remember you saying about he didn't really want to know did he, about the ad er er Neil's boss, no no he said oh I think I'll wash my hands of Neil I thought that's another one If I don't stick by Neil If he was still living with you he wouldn't wash his hands of Neil, would he? He might have done, he's very a strong mighty chap and I don't know that anything I said could have influenced him and anyway Brenda to be perfectly honest I wo I wo I wouldn't be doing it I wouldn't dare! I, I mean, I at the moment I'm not doing anything about Neil's training because we've got coming and it's it's too soon to start stirring up the bud again. I think you probably could have stopped anyway Yes, quite, yes you know, wouldn't it? Exactly yes we'll take a breathing space until the new year I mean Neil says that at the moment he'd be quite happy to get into a job where if he was a good worker he could progress in the job and I said an what about doing your radio repairs in the evening, but he just, he said yes. I said, well was it like a part-time thing? Yeah well you see you can make quite a few nice little pounds for yourself if you can say to your friends I can undercut I won't chat while you get across here if you can say to your friends I can do it cheaper than the Well you can it's like standard repair. Dave these computer been you know up in the air for about six months and Dave said you've gotta get it repaired he said, cos you know y he's gotta print out on it and everything Aha, aha a lot of his work is, sort of, rather than getting copies you just do a printout Yeah. and erm you know, and I said Carla needs it for work anyway so Dave said I'm gonna while I'm on holiday I'm gonna do all the stupid jobs, so I can take that computer in Yeah. and he said only cost about twenty cost about twenty five quid to get Yeah. repaired Yeah. took it in and they said well they have to send it away and Dave said, yeah okay, he said well it's forty nine pound before you start Oh no! and erm providing it's nothing, sort of major and that forty nine pounds will cover but if they find anything major they're it's on top of their forty nine pounds! And I said to Dave, you need somebody you know like a Yes. handyman or so something like Neil, I mean Yes exactly. to fix things like that That's right. so that if they charge twenty quid when they start Quite. you know, half the price Yes. you know that's Yes. you could make the money up. Of course you can well I knew of a girl who married I wouldn't say she'd married well when she started out but her husband was enterprising e eventually got himself quite a good job at the at people who print the bank notes so so that they they started off in a prefab and they ended up with a new four bedroom bungalow with central heating at Athorpe Roding . And er I lost touch with her after that but Joyce was very nice, very, very a down to earth cockney girl from Hockston and she said er she'd tell her sister she said I do admire my sister she said they'll never have anything other than a council house, I don't suppose but she said my brother-in-law mends people's motorcycles as a side line and the money that he gets from that he gives her most of it and she buys things on hire purchase, this was the days when hire purchase wasn't fearsomely expensive Mm. and she said my sister spends I mean, we're now talking about nineteen seventy my sister spends twelve and six a week on things from for the house on the hire purchase if she ever truly runs into debt she'll save part of the cost of the thing, you know and then she knows that she's always going to have to put twelve and six a week aside but she does that and buys things for the house and you see if you've got if you've got that little bit of extra coming in it's quite well it's like my lodgers, Brenda if I couldn't if I couldn't get what I need from my lodgers well Neil pays me Neil's house rent which thirty pound a week And that's not very No I stop No when he gets another job when he gets a proper job, when he's employed it'll stop. Oh I see. But at the moment I get thirty pounds a week I see so if he gets and if he gets some money coming in that's right, and he gets some unemployment money and I take ten pounds a week off him, for his food, I mean, it's not enough but it'll do, you know and then in dribs and drabs begrudgingly from that forty over the week once he starts to run out of money cos he's paid once a fortnight I begin to give him his karate money and here's two pounds fifty to go to the pub with Neil, you know, little bits Mm. little bits, little bits and I'll buy you your tobacco Neil nothing much but little bits of something now if he were working and could give me the full sixty that is thirty for his room and thirty for his food so that I didn't have to worry about th actually paying for him but he was paying me Paul is going to pay me fifty that's thirty pounds in, I made a rule to Paul that he is going to eat thirty pounds worth of food and there are only twenty pounds in my profit and then the other rule, a man called Alan this window cleaner he wants the room that I'm in at the moment Oh dear. because he doesn't want the ensuite, he can't afford it, he can't pay forty pounds a week Yeah. or thirty five, he wants to pay as little as possible. What will you charge, twenty five for that one? Twenty five, yes an and for that he can make hims he doesn't want to to really to pay me for food at all so I'm going to tell him that he can have his cups, spare cups of tea and a drink of milk an and some toast. Just bits and pieces Yeah. he doesn't want main No meals, sort of thing. Or main meals , no but he can have that on the twenty five he needn't give me anything extra for that. When's he moving in then?as soon as Well he was probably actually hammering on the door now to er come and see where he's going to put his ladders, he wanted er a bit of wall to put the brackets up to put his ladders but Paul said that he Paul thought you could suspend ropes from my garage roof, you remember what a lot of criss-cross bracing there is Have you seen what we've done in our garage? No I haven't. We took erm just wood beams across for canoes Or if might as well up there Richard put over, put a lot of beams and Paul at the weekend put an immense amount of his household gear up on the roof in the garage. In the garage, yeah that's what we did we Yes the ladder and Yes. everything on the beam. Yes well it's possible that er Alan may see a way to using that but he is quite ni , I mean he he's got no doubts he wants to come to me he's in a divorce at the moment and the moment that the final papers are signed, he's got to get out of the house he has to stay there till the last minute and then the moment that the papers are signed, he must go. But what happens if Philip's still there? Well Alan says he'll sleep on my sofa. On the sofa, for now, yeah. I mean h he under he says this is, you know a very nice house and he wouldn't normally expect to get a room for twenty five pounds in a house of that character. That's right but twenty five quid is a hundred quid a month, innit? Precisely! Well it's it's say I say I was doing my best, as it were, say that everything was going swimmingly I'd be getting a profit of thirty pounds from Neil twenty pounds from Alan because five will go on the tea and the milk and the box of Cornflakes and the toast er twenty, thirty , that's fifty and twenty for Paul which is seventy. You get thirty from Paul, don't you? No, he's going to give me fifty because, don't forget, he's in a small bed and he eats thirty pounds worth of food. Twenty pound from that's seventy quid. exactly! The price is considerably better. Two eighty a month. Exactly much, much, better than any pokes in the eye with a sharp stick! So what does it did Philip pay up on time? Always excellent on that yes, he's a toad in some ways but in other ways he's very good. What about Paul? Well he hasn't got any money, but when he's had it he's paid on the dot the only one But hasn't he got that job still then? At ? He's only just started. Oh he's just started. And he has to week before he gets any money he has to work a week in arrears, you know, they they So has he been there this week, Paul? Yes, he's been there this week Next week he'll get paid. money yes. So from next week you start getting paid. Yes and if that bloody Karen comes on the scene and wants to take him back I shall tell her, if you go back Paul That's it! that's it, I'm having no more of it! I've had two lots of terrible upheavals. Mm he can't, you know, he's He mustn't!. That's right you're gonna, sort of, Build a trench ha ha oh ha oh oh ha ha. Yeah he you can't keep on and on helping them out, I mean, they've gotta No. themselves I mean Quite! Shan't be sorry to see Philip go, will you? Oh, I can hardly wait! I mean I I went in there yesterday, I think it was, or this morning erm he put wet shirts into the wardrobe admittedly with the doors open but that bedroom is not a bedroom that I like to get any dampness in at all, Brenda. Why does he just hang it you know put in the tumble dryer or hang it in the garage? Too lazy! Easier to do it that way! Has Tony taken all his stuff out? Yes, he has at last. Is he in his house yet or is he still in that Yes and he's very, very difficult to feed himself, to get the food in because, you know, he liked to come in a half past ten and bully me to cook things for him that's why sometimes I used to run up to bed and pretend I was asleep . Asleep . So what er so how does he cope now then? Cos I thought that was a with a utmost difficulty and he has to get his little daughter on Sunday to help him to clean the place. She'll soon get fed up with that. Well tough he's not getting my, he's not getting the ensuite room, I can tell you If I if I have got three lodgers and I'm getting on with them and they're they're paying me regularly for the sake of an extra twenty pounds or whatever and the annoyance from Tony coming in at ten a or there abouts and then sitting there like a stuffed frock waiting for me to leap about and put food on a plate and microwave it not doing it, Brenda! No you shouldn't, I mean you I mean I w when I was dropping dead with exhaustion one evening I said to him look Tony,the there's I've cooked a chicken, there's a big chicken cooling on the table and there there were red sauce, potatoes, gravy, I said, stick the lot on a plate a micro and, you know, film it over, microwave it oh well I shan't bother to eat anything now of course he was paying me for his food Mm. and he was jolly well seeing whether But if you'd said oh well I'll prepare, what about if I prepare you , oh yes well I'll have that probably if you'd got done it he'd have it because he had to help himself. Oh well I th I then said oh well I'll alright I'll fling it together for you oh good can you bring it into the sitting room? I very nearly brought it o See don't. in the sitting room and banged it over his head! Tell you something I'd like to pick up tonight , if I see it is a blooming couple of trays. You know Paul has lent me some very clean but very ugly old fashioned trays of the sort that people have in restaurants that his mother lent him and they're they're a God send ! I tell you really, I mean, I used to have one and went to look beautiful trays in John Lewis's this morning I was licking my lips with desire, Brenda! The amount of ti , sometimes I feel like a bowl of soup, especially with not being , I felt like a bowl of soup and then Yes. not wanting to sit in the conservatory It's cold. winter and then, you know, you have to sort of use a plate to Yes. and Dave said why don't we Yes. have a couple of trays, and I know it's so easy Mm. and we had a couple Mark's had them, I sa , but they wanted fourteen ninety nine. Yes. I mean they probably are quite expensive but I mean I I'm sure A and N or somewhere, Debenhams or somewhere would have them Debenhams probably, but the John Lewis's were excellent, and some some of them were tin and I do wonder if you're eating on your lap a tin tray might be rather cold but on the other hand, you let the heat from the plate through to your poor little legs. I never noticed that! No. All-weather pitch. Yeah. And we had one rugby pitch. Yes Is this where Jenny used to live, or still lives? Up there by those weather boards. Oh yes yes. What about, have you heard from them lately? Yes she wrote to me, I'll tell you what when I get back I'll pop her letter in the post to you she seems alright. Who Jenny? Yes, they've sti they've stayed together she still, mark you, in the letter she does come across as a misery guts. They all do, don't they? What about have you heard any more of her cos she was having trouble with her husband, wasn't she? Yes she still phoned me up in the morning and at vast expense to tell me how awful everything was. Still bad is it? Oh I phoned her back a few days later and said how are things now? Oh they're alright she said. I expect Jenny, her kids are off at school now aren't they? They are and I I think the whole trouble with Jenny was that not having, I mean, I was alright as a sort of mum subject I wasn't the same as a bona fide mum that could be called upon in all weathers, at all times, to do everything I don't And I think she found looking after tiny children a bit too much for her. Didn't like she was more the career girl wasn't she, I think? She should have stayed in beauty therapy, she's a very gentle and she's very able. She's very good at it wasn't she? Very good and kind and small children are cruel noisy and demanding, and unless That's right. you've got a soul of steel, a heart of steel you can't cope with the buggers! the bath off. And obviously I think there was a little bit left in there. Yeah. Cos you can't get your hand right to the bottom without a I mean Mm. it shot down the hole. Mm. So it's a right pain! Unless there's a special fluid or something they could put it in there to wash through You can't because it wouldn't come out through the taps would it? For someone like Nigel who's got all the tools it it'd be a a it's not a job you can come in and just do it cos you have to take a bit off clean it and then a bit more cleaning. Mm. I haven't got any of the tools. Mm no but it even for a plumber it's a big job. Be a bloody long job! Well no not really cos you could find once you've found it, once he's, where you found the clog So is that Lee, jacket that's got a hole in it? Marked at the top and , yeah. Why? Well cos it had sunk and fallen, that's why going cos the jacket had s fallen What the new jacket we got off Lee? Yeah, it filled with water, it'd gone into the tank. But why, why did it? Well it must have had a split in or something. Mm. The si it's all round the sides you don't really need a top on a tank, it's just the sides you want. Can you come on the neo have you come on the insurance? Can you come on Les and can he come on his insurance? I doubt it. I mean estimated Ah. because Nigel like privately We didn't, we haven't cos Les has to go through the books and charge Ah yes of course. so we do it, we have like Nigel as our own plumber Ah yes, yes and he doesn't charge, he charges still Mm yes. but not as much. Mm. And me being a silly idiot, see if I'd realized I didn't think you don't think that there's three parts of the tank, you think it's a tank and you just turn your tap on and the water comes out or Do you know Dave I read erm we there's a magazine called Good Housekeeping and it's been going for it had been going for seventy years, last year it started in nineteen twenty one, women's magazine, very good one and they had a sort of seventieth birthday issue Do you want a cup of tea now? and one woman said that the year, nineteen twenty one she was a bride of eighteen years old and she took Good Housekeeping and she's got the whole lot although she's now a very old lady, and she said my first lot of housekeeping was done in a house in Wales where we had water from the well we had to build the fires up by hand we could get Welsh coal cheaply but they had to you know use paper and kindle and we swept with brooms and my life has never been easier she said I had three children in four years and my life has never been easier she said and all these modern things came in life has got more and more complicated and difficult ! You're not kidding he certainly ain't kidding you now now it's happened to me I know if it ever happened I know never to do it again. The the the buggeration of it is that the next time round that something goes wrong, it'll be again something that you've encountered before ! Yes yes and me and there's one Bugger! thing house, I never touched electrics anything gas, electrics it's funny me and are absolute disaster! Yeah yeah. I mean whatever I touch Yeah. with the plumbing it so Plumbing is very difficult erm I hate it! Years ago I had a class of very bright children and they did some really good projects, they weren't silly projects where they just scribble a bit an and draw some rubbish the they really worked and I saw to it that they produced really good work Yeah. and one boy chose to write about plumbing and do you know, he found that there was nothing written down about plumbing in the early nineteen seventies there were one or two plumbing text books, they were very expensive and you could only get them through The Institute of Plumbers plumbing is something that until about nineteen seventy five was passed from father to son or uncle to nephew it was a sort of secret craft you know, you can It can understand it. Yeah. Yes. Yeah I still I watched Nigel, I mean, I can dig some of that Got a burning in the tum now. What dear? Got a burning in the tum. Oh yes, you would have I mean that that i it is a stress symptom yes and it's not funny, I've had it. So did Carla go off okay? Yeah. Oh could I ring home? Course you can. Thanks very much. Put your glasses on to see. Oh yes. Can you spot a little clip? Oh the little clip? Ta love thank you. Yeah the little microphone. Oh! such a silly little thing No answer? No erm one or other of them is probably taking Neil to karate I think Friday night's karate Oh yeah it is. is at eight o'clock. He's probably down the pub! Try later. Doesn't go to erm his brothers or something afterwards? Yes yes and I expect either Phil or Paul is driving him and which ever it's And possible that Paul has had a already had a reply from the Destiny people, you know, the ap at my urging Paul joins these people to find himself another girl because I'm so sick of hearing about Karen who's treated him made a fool of him totally Mm. and er if Paul has had a phone call from one of these woman then he's been off like a shot! I've lost the little silver thing. What sort of little silver thing is it? It's a little just a funny shaped bracket thing it's sort of stand. Oh I didn't notice that I saw that thing in the car but I didn't notice a bracket. Yeah well I had it here so I dropped it. Ah! It's probably floating round. It's probably in th in the internal works of the chair. So what did Jim have to say much? No not really. When's he coming back? Didn't say till Monday week What you lost? My little stand to go with the microphone, I had it here probably fallen in my handbag. Yes. Still got three of our tapes go than the rest of them ! You you never get to the this way did you? Mm We're on number three she's not allowed to go home till she's done at least seven! I have three now. How long of you got? How long are you allowed to have? A week. A week, mm. Only started last night. Oh well. Don't have nothing else in your life it's probably in this stupid handbag! So what is there no answer as Nigel's? No. I think actually he he g doesn't he go to his Gym. I know he's does . Well it wasn't your fault was it? It's not even silver at all, it's black! Ah dopes! Ah erm! Stupid I lost my fags! I'm exactly the same, Brenda. So is it a good li lovely meal. Mm. Mm chicken gourmet right erm with a pop poppadom was it? Poppadom yeah. Poppadom. Mm. I'm going to scream in a minute! bloody loud! Erm I've found the original packet I lost. Oh. From the restaurant Oh my God up need any matches when they're not lost ha Dave so they never offered Lee any No plenty of bloody but no or see he forgot to go up and help was busy on Boxing Day they won't pay, they give them a free ticket to get in. For what game, what for Wimbledon games? If that's alright I'll do it gotta pay your own train fair I said Boxing Day they only do Sunday service anyway. Mm very restricted services on Boxing Day. All it is, he had to help, there were fifteen and seventeen year olds, weren't they? Older than him and they were mentally er Ah what retarded? wh is i yeah but Lee said they wasn't, they were just, I think kids that er rough kids there was big coloured Mm. chaps weren't they? Mm mm. He said did he do football today? No he's again. Oh he could do it at work? Yeah, you're not out you know . Did he go in and see that girl? No. Why? Cos the girl in the office went out and bought the lunch today didn't go out come in, phoned James and then started his second half of the day around some girls. Mm. He's a . But was his bath hot? Well it was hot but it didn't come out quick. Just doesn't come out quick mm. It's like someone's got their finger . Mm you'll have to be careful cos that could affect the heating too, won't it? Cos it's the hot water that comes on the tank runs through the No it's a different system. Is it? . Well we had a wonderful time at Marks and Sparks. Yes, it's great! Didn't we? We did. Should of bought most of our Christmas pres and a holdall to carry them in. Mm. How about that! Yeah. What did you spend, about eighty pounds? Oh, we've gotta finish it off tomorrow. Yes. I don't want them after this visit tomorrow I might go out one more time Mm. just for a few bits and pieces and any extras and Yeah. that's it. Mm. It's probably better, cos I mean normally I start back in January. I think you're hot waters turning the heat, it's turned off again somewhere because i the tank don't fill up quick enough it cuts itself out,we I don't know. Turn that number three up to number four might be just sometime a the ther you know it might need it on number four. Mm I don't think I've ever seen your log effect, is it a log effect fire? Yeah. I don't think I've ever seen it on. Erm we do have it on sometimes Mm. when we have you, little lights off. Mm. Looks quite effective. I bet! Nine times out of ten you put the big, sort of the kids always put the big lights on, I like low Mm. lights Mm. but the kids always put the big Mm. tend to put the big, oh this cup of tea's wonderful! Ah! Marvellous Brenda ! Mhm. Oh I'll show you that letter you told me to read cos I got a here. Oh yes. That's my letter on top and then the letter underneath it's the people Jolly interesting! Yeah. Just gotta fill in fill in this today's the ooh that one there, I'll let you just have a look at the Debs book and that Marks and Sparks. Mm. But these are W H Smith's a Woolworth's. Aha. Oh that what I was gonna show you that's Peter he bought it and didn't want it, you look at this month's Prima for Christmas. Ooh tough! We the plumbers on his way! What now? Haven't got any money to pay him! Don't worry about money he's alright, no he's said he'd come and have a look if he sees, he's gonna have a look at it first, see what he thinks. Just don't tell me then. Go and have around Tesco's . Cos we can't afford to blow it out every see how much Nigel says it's gonna cost first just don't give me any more stress, please! I can't cope! Deep breathing exercises that's good for stress. Oh that's what you told me, I know, but it's easier said than done, innit? Want the telly on, Jean? Do you want the telly on? No thank you. talking. Yeah, I talk books, letters You turn it on you turn it on, Jean You goading yeah? Jean even if we see each other every week we still have loads to talk about. Ooh masses yes . I don't I hope you haven't shown him in David! Ooh it's this spot, I shall in a minute you haven't seen a leaflet Dave, for Debenhams have you? There was one out in the kitchen. What was it called? The Christmas catalogue, it's called Debenhams No. it's just like one of these brochures, I had two of them. I ain't thrown them away they've got twenty five percent off ain't they? Yeah. When? And er er a jewellery test tomorrow at the Ooh tomorrow Debenhams? Oh no, no I think it's at a is it a jewellers Ratners, something like that? Yeah. Friday and Saturday they've got twenty five percent off everything in the shop. Yeah, they're jewellers. Well the sort of thing Yeah . Mm. You're gonna buy me this dearly expensive watch aren't you? Oh yeah, I'm full of tricks like that! Ah. I bet Nigel's sitting at home now laughing his head off at What does he think it is? Well he's he he said he doubted he said he doubted very much if it was that. Oh. Now he said he'd come round and have a look Yeah. but he said he didn't think er that was it. Mm. Mm. Still you lot going to bed with it tonight are you?. Get the floor boards up for you. He will, I was gonna say he'd be here till two o'clock I don't know why . Well I see, if he's gonna do it I'll phone him up and . And just say y your wife's taken ill. No I'll say my plumbings gone funny had a burst pipe. Mm. Ah! Oh,. Not now. Especially if, mind you, he might not be able to do anything, it's like I say you you've got your hot water and it's probably a job he can do better in the week, one night as long as he says it's safe to use and you're not gonna blow the tank up on yourself! That's the thing yeah that's what you want to know. That's all you've gotta Yeah. worry about, innit? That's it yeah. Maybe you just gotta wait another ten minutes to get your bath full. That won't hurt will it? Phoned my mum up, she said you can come down here and have a bath say at seven o'clock in the morning, she says yeah! ah. Oh for God's sake! I've put occupation, husband! It is yes, yes!. Did you go in Tesco's when you was over there? No we didn't we thought there was a bomb alert in the toilet in the restaurant, didn't we Jean? Mm yes. This hi oh the made her edgy ! They did, they say they got water hammer we went into the ladies toilets and one door, one cubicle was shut and there was this loud drumming noise and I said to Brenda perhaps it's an alarm signal perhaps somebody on the other side of that door has been taken ill and has pressed some sort of alarm signal, anyway we went out and they said oh no it's always making that noise ! Did they? Well. Brenda tell you of Tesco's expectations of putting one up in Horsell Jean? Yes charming! Can't see that going down very well! No. That's the last thing they want in Horsell! No not the right place for it at all. No I don't think they need it actually. No no. So now I know why they tell you fill this as you go along cos you forget what Mm. Sounds like Nigel now See the whole things going to again. Will you tell him that, it might be the thermostat's gone. No. What's your regional accent, Jean London? No erm su er no hang on, hang on my regional, they want my regional accent er well I would have said it's standard received northern. Northern? Mm standard received, S R. How do you spell friend, F R I That's right, I before E except after C. forgets don't you? What you looking at there? The Marks and Spark's book? Ah! Is that what you're looking at, no? No this is Prima. Prima. Yeah and it's very good. Got some really The Prima interesting things a lot in it. Yeah really Mm. lot isn't there? Yeah. Yes for that I don't know cos in wo one oh actually it might be this they've added this ste Essentials actually on conversation it is a you end up with so many don't you? Yeah. And I haven't thought like that really Oh! and half of it is rubbish and decent rubbish and that's rubbish there it is I knew it was in here somewhere I knew I thought it was in the Prima they gave it to you but obviously it was erm in Essentials everything out of there don't think they had many Christmas You used to was it you, you see you can make your own , was it you that we went up to town that time and brought those erm from John Lewis the round Mm. it was you Mm. did you use it? Yes. For what? Well I tried to fix them on the door and they wouldn't stay No. There was, unless I was prepared to put a ruddy great nail through my door I couldn't hang the thing! What did you decorate them or did you just leave them plain? Well they were decorated weren't they, they were rings with and they had little tiny boxes, little coloured like little parcels sewn on. Oh! Oh no I thought you bought just some plain green ones. No. No? No no. Perhaps we were going to and then decided Mm. against And I tried to fix it to the door and it wouldn't, I tried to do it up with Blu-Tack and would have none of it, I tried to do it with Sellotape and wouldn't do it the Sellotape kept on coming away something in the varnish I think that resisted that so then I thought, right I'll I'll tie the thing up in someway, I forget how, and blew away went down the drive! I didn't mean to laugh when you said it it blew away down the drive ! You can just imagine this bloody thing dri flying away down the drive ! yeah so I chased off after it one of the little boxes had come loose and carted it back to the house I said your going to be a Christmas decoration whether you like it or not ! So first of all I put it on a little er I've got a rather nasty little table that looks as though it ought to have a chamber pot underneath it you remember that nasty little wooden bedside table that I hate Oh yeah, yeah. so I put it on the top of there, every time anybody went by they knocked it off ! In the end I simply flung it on the Away! middle of the dining room table Mm. with cries of get on with it! That's half half the trouble with home decoration is it's not practical. No, no I was gonna say some you know, just sort of just some ideas are good but I tell you haven't they got some beautiful erm candle holders around this year some really unusual ones. Ooh yes! Well the one I saw in Liberty's it was eight ninety five, it was that high Was it that well that was quite good. and it was dark green oh it it's not bad but you know I'd just lost ten pounds to the taxi driver to him giving me the wrong change so I was feeling in a very frugal mood an and this the green of this candlestick holder you know what I call the old fashioned dark green, of some china? Mm. This wasn't quite that it was more like a glossy young holly leaf oh it was beautiful! Here you are one time only twenty s twenty per cent savings on a single purchase of Debenhams own brand throughout the store erm Debenhams has bought to blah blah blah outstanding values da da da and to encourage to do your Christmas shopping at Debenhams we'll making a special offer that you won't be able to resist until December the twenty fourth commencing on November you can get an amazing twenty per cent off at any Debenhams own bought range, that means you can shop throughout the store, visit every floor, buy all your gifts under one roof and save twenty per cent providing you do all your shopping in one go to get the benefit of the voucher because the voucher can only be used once from men's, woman's fashions, accessory, children's clothes, furnishings, gifts simply present this voucher and attach simply present the voucher attach and receive the train fare discount, we hope you enjoy your shopping . Mm. Well you think today i if you'd had that Mm. at mark, that twenty six quid, Yeah. that be More No fifty quid. More fifty quid. double cos that's ten Mm. per cent, yeah Yes. yes oh lovely cakes! Here Jean just look at this, this is what Carla wants for Christmas, look that doll, she collects porcelain dolls. Ah! Ah! Isn't she gorgeous! Oh that's lovely. Nineteen ninety nine, I don't think that was bad. That's not bad I'll buy her that. Yeah? Yes if they've got it in tomorrow, I'll buy her that. Because i that she can keep right through adult life, can't she her That's the beauty. thing, and she's so careful with them. A a lovely decoration for her bed. Cos you know how her ballerina one she's got you bought Yes. her from John Yes. Lewis the Yes. musical one Yes. I mean nobody's allowed to touch it! No quite. You know, I mean, it's fair i I know she's very careful with things Cos she said to me the other day, she said have you been in my room and touched? And I said no, I was going to, she said I think you have, she said, because you've moved the ballerina and I did I listened to it. Oh I say! While I was making her bed. She knew. Oh she knew Yeah. But she said leave my bed, I'll make my bed myself now. Mm mm. But they've got some lovely, lovely things in. Yeah yes. But you have that Mark's and Spark's catalogue to take back with you. Oh great thank you. Because y they've got a good lot of recipes in there, fish and Aha! Aha! all and you do a lot more cooking than me, I know they've got some really good Every day! That's right yeah but I mean they've got some really, sort of you know, like those things, what have you said tonight that you like, those that jar of stuff, was it something in rum pineapple? Oh yes! Yes. Where is it? Can I just pinch the Debs on back again? Mm. But it's the first time I've ever known Mark's to do a catalogue with their gifts in. Mm, quite shows how desperate they all are, to get rid of their Christmas gifts. Well Debs has never done one. No, no and very often they charge you for one a tremendous amount illustrated! Mm. Yeah Oh Brenda ah ha ha ha . . I love that, look at that! Ah! Ever worn them? What's that dear? The basque thing, they're called. No! Basque. Gerry would never have allowed it ! I used to make myself If he did he wouldn't you wouldn't of kept it on would you? No I can't go You wouldn't of kept it on long! I would not well I think that that Christmas tree is definitely you. Mm. That forty nine Mm pound Mm. cos, I mean, that Mm. did you hear that woman behind? No. Said she would never think, she said I thought it was real! Yes. She said, she said the one next to it Yeah. she said now that looks artificial, but I would never have thought the No. cheaper one! No. The fifty nine pound that looked one that looked Mm , mm. but I know it cos the other week when I had to work till half past eight for Peter, he was having a dinner party and erm we went down there, I had to go shopping with him, he made me die cos he asked me if I'd work a bit later and I said yeah I need the money, so I'll work later so er he made me die because he said in this flare up, this argument when when I worked that day, I mean, I worked all day, I had nothing to eat and I couldn't eat af , you know, cos of this trouble I couldn't eat after Mm. four o'clock Mm. and er anyway he got home about half past three so we had to go down to Marks went down to Marks, came back and he bought me a sandwich, I said I've eaten nothing all day, bought me this sandwich, I was hoping to go away at six Mm. and at eight o'clock I went home and anyway he went to pay me my weeks money and h he gave me an extra ten pound Mm. I thought that's big of you, I mean, I would have charged him more anyway Mm. but Mm. I didn't I thought Mm mm Oh well Mm. he's Mm. given me ten pound bonus Mm. and when we were having this argument on Wednesday he said I said we what what was your reason then for not paying me for that when I was genuinely sick and he said er oh he said because I gave you such a good bonus last week, I said what was that then, he said erm twenty five pounds, I said no you didn't! No. I said, you know, I did some extra hours for you Mm mm. oh yes he said I've worked it out those extra hours I've paid you for them but I thought you actually worked for them for nothing and I've just given you a bonus Oh good god! and er This man is pathologically mean! Well the these Pathologically mean! these decorators just could not believe how No. . No. they were just so amazed! Yeah yeah. Just, you know,th th well they just couldn't, just couldn't believe that somebody could actually you know, sort of, react, sort of , in in that way. Mm. I'm saying everything's turned off at the moment, alright? Was it ? No, he's not sure, he don't think it is that h he's he's gonna cut the gas, he said it's not right the er central heating pumps are well hot, he said it shouldn't be like that so he to there's a little box up there he thinks it's probably this box but he's he's trying to figure out what it is up there because he's he's just such amazed at price of pieces Mm. trying to work out exactly what's going round might have a But did you tell tell him that, it doesn't get that hot in the conservatory? No that's . Nothing to do with that and the radiator key? No, can't be that no don't worry about that. It's a worry, isn't it? It is, I don't know. I suppose even sort of, with a with a plumber, you know,y you don't I mean, I suppose they don't always know what they're looking for. Well no because unless they put the system in and know exactly what it was there are so many different ways of delivering water. Mm, the thing is the guy that used to live here was such a bloody prat! Oh like Brian? A didn't help chap! Oh oh my dear! And the jobs we've found Yes. that that's gone wrong because he's a do-it Quite yourself chap Quite yes. it's just totally unbelievable! Yeah well this is my this my Yeah. this is the story of my life now in the bathroom I have had, I have had to pay a hundred pounds to Mr Butcher the plumber to put in a new shower thing because that was cheap and rough and eventually wore out should never have been put in. What about your leak that came through the ceiling, is that cleared now? Oh it's doing it again it's doing it again, dear oh yes, doing it again erm I had the plumber up to look at that cos I thought the plumbing was all wrong and he said no he said the plumbing is wrong the waste pipe of the en suite shower and the bath are connected, and they shouldn't be they should be separate, but they had been connected and that is bad but no, he said, what's happening is quite simple, he said erm the people using the en suite can't control the water it's going out he said the curtain doesn't fit flush against the wall, because the wall leans, you know Mm. and he said water is getting out, he said tell people to be more careful and put towels all round so in my lovely en suite I've got old towels all round my surround Oh! I love that God! Brenda, I adore it, it's me all over so the bathroom I had endless trouble, as you know, with Shirley I had to buy stuff and Shirley came in and I gave her little presents of this and that and helped her with cooking meals for her she re-grouted practically my bath tiles and my en suite tiles because we thought water was going through the wall, and it was and then I had to replace the where you take the plug out in the bath, I forget what you call that, the trap Mm. all that has had to be replaced because that was starting to drip down into the hall, again! And then I had to th the shower just came, you know came to pieces in our hand, as it were it was not working as a shower so a plumber had to come Mr Butcher came into me unscrewed the whole lot and he said this is cheap old rubbish! It's continental and is not is not U K and that was a hundred pounds, more or less for his fee and and buying a and buying at a discount through somebody who I knew buying this new shower and the tappy things, you know Mm. the mixer things that's the bathroom. And the next thing that's going wrong in the bathroom will be that I'll have to replace that central heating pump. Is that going wrong then? It's it makes an awful noise in the morning! I I've got a bill to come in from the electrician for his call-out charge he diagnosed that it's was not an electrical fault and then thought it was an electrical fault by the noise, it was making a fizzing noise but he doesn't th he said it's, it's the pump the pump is on the way out it needs replacing house is built in nineteen eighty five! So the bedrooms and they're not too bad because he hasn't been able to do anything in the bedrooms the bedrooms are alright except that over the lintels in most of the bedrooms the plaster is is not right, it's it's flaking in great lumps and rippling and cracked something to do with the So was he the guy that did everything himself then? Yes and he hadn't the faintest idea of how to do it! But that flakiness and that is obviously when it was new he didn't let it dry out, he just painted Quite. over it. That's right so you then go into the en suite room, well I cannot tell you the trouble I've had from the en suite! Water pouring through into the kitchen water pouring down the electric wire of the lamp in the study! What from there? Yes and eventually Shirley and I thought, well I mean, we spent weeks grouting, we grouted and we grouted and still water was coming through and we grouted and at last it seemed to be dry and the man came and did the re-artexing on the insurance and I had wa new wallpaper put up, for which I paid extra because he only allowed eight pounds a roll, the insurance company only pays eight pounds a roll and I had eleven pound wallpaper and a border and having got the whole thing up the s the patches have appeared again! And they won't pay out again will they? Oh no er and I Did they come and check it first or they just No, no they just take your word for it and now I have got as I said, I've got that, I've got to paint that over and reseal and I've got to make sure that nobody makes a mess in there, but the plumber said what you really need to do is to get rid of this cheap and tatty, horrible plastic tray which doesn't come right to the edge of the tiles Mm. and buy a screen five hundred pounds he says! Mm, very clever isn't he? I just looked at the man, I thought, I oh god I can't cope with this! So you've just got a curtain round it? Mm. Mm. So you come down the stairs and you come into the kitchen in the kitchen we start with the refrigerator being put next to the cooker Mm. and I've had that taken out because I couldn't, I just could not stand it especially in hot weather! You've got a new cooker haven't you? I've got a a a well I got a new cooker had a have a new cooker because when they took the old one out it was already in seven separate pieces! Those, bloody useless one though! He bought it off the town dump!so new fridge- freezer in the cu which is now free-standing in the corner bought it from Doug Oh I've seen that. you know reduced price but never-the-less money new cooker gas hob removed because that was going U S and an electric hob put in the formica in the kitchen, if you remember when you first saw me, it was tiles it wasn't formica, it was ghastly tiles and when Ned lifted all that out it was black with with rotten mould! Mm. The man hadn't grouted the tiles in properly he'd used some sort of rough old cement and the water was just going through and staying there! Oh my God! Fortunately Ned gave me that pink formica and the new sink as a present. So you didn't to buy it. Ha what else have we got? Gas fire. The gas fire I have formed a really deep and meaningful relationship with Andy at Anglia Gas he's been back and forth to my house, I know all about the fact that he hasn't got a girlfriend and his mother is a marvellous cook and that Worlingworth is a bit off the map he and I are buddies, dear! I hate to think how much money I have paid over to Anglia Gas if I'd known what I was into I could have walked into that house then and I could, while I had all that money before I gave any away I could have said, right, I'm going to have to spend that, that, that, that and that and I would have done it and it would have I would've been alright because I wouldn't have had things going wrong! Is it still working now, the fire? Yes. But after about three hundred quid innit? Ha I could have had a lovely new one! That's th the trouble is they keep repairing,they don't tell you this do they, I mean No! they could have, sort of, said look In the end I bullied Andy, I said, Andy there is something fishy about this fire he said well it's possible he said that it was erm a display model and every time anybody came in and needed a replacement part instead of sending for the part they took it out of the display model! God, what was that bloke! Was he a youngster or what was he that lived in your house? Well youngish, he'd got youngish children, you know. Blooming idiot, weren't he! Well totally! I mean next time I buy a house I shall say excuse me but are you a blooming idiot?. Are you gonna be but these D A Y, D I Y Oh. are okay if they know what they're doing, but I mean th this this guy, I mean My lovely Gerald was very, very clever he was a mechanic, he was a graduate mechanical engineer and he knew everything about cars that needed to be known. Mhm. And he thought as a result that he knew about everything else as well and Brenda, he didn't. No. Because another way in which I had to throw good money after bad was that after he died once I started having things done in the house they kept on turning up things that he had done that were absolutely N B G the al do you remember those wires hanging about in Yeah. the kitchen? The electrician turned quite white when he saw them! I know that was you but y you don't, I mean I remember u the fire we used to have here and it wasn't till I gave it to a friend, I mean we kept here for a year alright, lucky enough, we didn't use it anyway I gave to a friend who doing car boot, I found it in the attic an he said to me Brenda, he said, did you ever use this fire? He said well obviously you didn't, he said, cos you'd be dead! I said why I? He said, how are y he said the wiring on this, he said if you plug this in, he said ho , you'd electrocute yourself! I say! I said, you're joking and I said they sell the house to you Yes. you know, and you Yes. plug it in and they Mm. obviously just left it, luckily Mm. enough we did! I'm going to ask some very, very straightforward questions when I buy the next house Well and I'm going to write down the answers they give me and get them to sign them because I have I have really been beaten about the head by this ! Well it's, I mean, you know, it's I I don't think I could live with the conscience, if I was selling I would say well look No I couldn't I mean, and these people are Jehovah Witnesses who sold me this house and my feelings about the commercial probity of Jehovah Witnesses are that they haven't any commercial probity. They're they're probably so wrapped up in their devotion that they don't bother about standard commercial morality, it was sh a shocking thing to do! I mean, if I were to sell my house now supposing somebody came galloping in along before Christmas ooh ooh I want the house on the first of Feb and they'd come and they'd see the house and they say yes I want it, want it, want it and it was plain that they were going to want it and we started to talk money, as soon as we'd got the solid block of money I want one O two you er estate agent tells me I can get ninety seven between ninety five and ninety seven say they offer me ninety six Mm. say we'd be, you know, be fiddle around and get to ninety six I would then turn and say to them, I will give you five hundred pounds I will knock five hundred off that so that you can put in a proper shower tray and screen Mm. put in by That's it. by Mick of Debenham because I understand from him that that is what's needed. Mm. I just would not But even if you didn't sell, I mean but, death trap things electrical things, I mean you would Quite! sort of feel you know, I mean, I've known people where, I mean, it was like us the day we moved in here Your conscio as you say went to bed that night and thought gas, you know and the blooming boiler, lucky it didn't blow up! I mean it had all, it had gone! You know, I mean, the next day we had the gas man out Mm. and said we , you know,we we lucky we weren't gassed! Oh Brenda Brenda! You know I mean people are so, sort of,un un trustworthy and Yes. well they're just not honest are they? No , no they're not. You know I mean, alright y you wanna sell your house and everything, but I mean for goodness sake, I mean! You've got to live with yourself. That's right, I mean What I have said to Neil and Neil is honest but once or twice he's said things and I've said, no Neil! No, that's wrong! There it's better to be it's only poor and have your self respect Mm. than to try to take a mean and petty advantage of anybody or anything. That's right. He's only said these things, sort of, trying out to see because he doesn't he doesn't know if very much, oh it's so sad Brenda, he said to me we were talking on Wednesday night, I think and he looked wistfully at me and he said I only want to be taught. Ah! I only want to be taught. So he's just like a child isn't he? Well he is, I say that he's six, he's twenty going on sixteen. Th doesn't the doesn't the stepfather, sort of, say anything? No, what what does what do modern men think about, Brenda, you tell me your Dave isn't it? is a one in a thousand one in a thousand like my my Gerald that thought about his duties, his responsibilities, his tender fatherly fig . We'll get the stuff in then Yeah When she's gone off the Yeah yeah cos I dare say we'll latish in bed, cos you won't be that late with Marge in bed, will you, tomorrow night? No no. Not of Maureen spoken to her lately? Well yes I had to spend quite a lot of time on the line to her because er her husband's been quite ill with bladder trouble. That's right I remember you saying. And she was very worried and kept on crying down the phone, and saying now I know what you went through with Gerry I said, oh come, you know Has it gone off again, Dave? No, well I in the kitchen. central heating central heating and all If it's the and that down it he couldn't see a blockage. Mm. And as soon as he put some funnels and that down it rods pressure came back. Mm. So you can't, but what Dave's saying is i if lighting the boiler and then it's going It's switching in and out is it? switching off and Oh. the water's stone cold. Yeah, yeah. touched that he touched several things. What I'll do so is anything sucked down into the boiler or Right, I'll turn the central heating off. What about the didn't you say tha what was the central heating thing, why was that hot? . Bet that boiler has already had it! What's the boiling point of water, people? It's a hundred, Dave. Ooh. Is it so what would be si sixty five being a reasonable temperature for hot water for a bath. hot in the tank. Obviously you've gotta have cold too. You nearly ready? What just sixty five in a bath? Well not sixty five water Sixty five from the hot tap. Oh what do you think it is then? so. Well it's about, I mean that's normal about sixty, sixty About five. Yeah. Has it gone Yeah. up again then? It has but I've turned the stat back up on the cylinder just made the boiler cut in again cos that's that's why the boilers cutting out cos it what it does once it gets up to temperature then it'll shut itself off. Where's the thermostat for that then upstairs in the attic? On on the tank. Yeah but why would it be all of a sudden need to turn it up now? I've turned it down. Oh you've turned it down? Yeah. I thought you meant a See it might have reached temperature before I mean I don't know, I can't do a I mean it's been do you have apparently alright, I mean do you have cold water coming out it was put the boiling w w really hot Yeah and then what hotter than normal? Well I thought it was, yeah. But you don't you remember Carla had a bath Sunday she ha , we had a bath about nine o'clock and then when we got back she went to have her bath and she got in it and it was stone cold! Ah! I actually hear Lisa the other night she was coming out of the bath, oh she said, the bath's cold. There's no hot water was there? Mm. And it was about three hours later and I said to her It's really cutting out a lot. Might be the stat playing up. There thermostat? Yeah on the Mm. from the erm tank see what it does once How much long do they last? when it get's up well who knows, sort of thing once it gets up to temperature Mm. it like sends the thing down the old wiring and flicks the boiler off the same as with the heating once it gets up to temperature the boiler will cut off. Yeah. That might be that. So does, it that a new one that's on there? Yeah. Well it's Would have they put when they put the boiler in cos the boiler w we've had in three years. Yeah well you have before you had an immersion heater didn't you? Yeah it's not a new cylinder there though is it? Yeah cos they did a lot of work didn't they, or they should have done er see on another they'd have to put they put the new bo o the only thing, we had everything new three years ago except for the they did all the work in the attic Quality system yeah well i that boiler that's in the airing cupboard that do you know? No, they do No they must have had a cylinder there already. Yeah, no they just put pipes and that they run in there. Yeah. Different pipes but I'll see what's new and what's old and what Yeah. they'd have done. Mm. Who done it, Brian? Brian and who's the other one? Jeff. No. No not big Lefty? Lofty Lefty. Oh Brian . Brian yeah And er Lefty. Lefty yeah. Yeah they did it. That's that now see I before did you have was your heat heating the hot water on the immersion? Well we don't know cos the day we moved in Oh yeah it blew up. It was a Servowarm boiler in there. Oh right. Servowarm in there and then Les but the heating would boil I think there is a there's a thing there for the Yeah that's that's what I mean it's if it if it run on the immersion before then you wouldn't have had that tank stat on there. You don't we were u we had to use the immersion didn't we cos w we moved in in the June and Lofty and Brian said well don't have it done cos you're not gonna use until August so we they did it August time for us so but we didn't use Servowarm cos it had blown up, they just disconnected it for us, so we used the ho the immersion heater until they came Mm. and then when they did it thr three months after we moved in we went back to we had the new boiler Is it still going? put it Yeah. It's all very confusing Jean innit? Yes but to me it's old stuff Brenda I mean I've been hearing this kind of conversation in number between chaps coming in to mend things Well the fire's a dump. Honestly! Well it's just it just goes on and on and on dunnit? It does. I put a ha ha it's age next to you I put thirty seven! God what a what an idiot I am now! Sixty six ! You're not! I'm sixty six this month. Oh I've got you down as sixty two dear. God I didn't realize you was that! Yes. Dear me! Ah dear dear dear dear haven't they got in the Prima some lovely er Christmasy things? Yes I didn't really have a good look through it because I got stuck on a an article that was so good at the beginning Oh I must s sort your your watch Oh my watch! the reason I didn't post it Oh yes, not to worry. I went to post it in the index book I've got it's stopped it's been in Oh no it's my jewellery box Aha! and it and I looked at it batteries probably run down at the battery so Mm. if we take it tomorrow Mm. get them to do it while you wait Yes ooh yes Well they do it within an hour so we Yeah. drop it in Mm. and then er Good. and your lipstick as Mm. well, in the bathroom. Mm. That's here erm what else di did you see this lovely picture of Carla? Oh Did you see that one? isn't that good! That is really lovely! Good one of her, innit? Yes it is oh oh oh ha ha! Oh you saying that they had a ki ki she had a fes you know the festival we went to? Mm. Well they did a, straight afterwards they went to a Kingston one gets there, here's the bloody judge adjudicator! Not him again! The same guy! Well Tracey pulled most of us out Ooh! and again he picked the dro th not dancers, non-dancers and all that Mm. anyway the festival company, Kingston, phoned up Tracey and said, you know, have we upset you? And Tracey said what do you mean? She said well you've pulled half your dancers and they're such good dancers, what's happened? And she said well I'm very sorry she said but your adjudicator's so rude and the way he described himself, he should Mm. never get up and dance like he does! No, no. Because that's what she she noticed Yes. and cos I told Yeah. her you had Mm, mm and she said er and they said well we've had so many complaints we'd never ever have him again. Mm. He's been to banned from Hounslow, banned from Kingston. Aha! Mm. Because he's just it's sort of a pain in the backside! Yes he is isn't he! Yeah aw awful sort of chap! Mm better go and get Carla in a minute, it's only in the village we've gotta go. Yeah. He's gotta go and get a suit tomorrow ooh my God it's like a nightmare innit! Yes and the Doug took him over in the week to look Mark's but I mean they're beautiful suits Oh but they're expensive! but they're you know Mm. expensive. Mm I mean my son buys two or even three at a time and He's got to though hasn't he? He's got to look well he has I mean er my my daughter-in-law said he takes he mu he very often drives he's got a season ticket, an annual season ticket t er to take the train but more often than not he drives because he gets into the into London at about quarter to seven in the morning he goes and you know, parks the car and then goes and gets breakfast and she says he always takes at least one shirt in the car with him to change into. He does? Yeah yeah. Mm. Wears he wears white Swiss cotton and he'll change half way through the day, depending on whether he's got, you know, in fairly important meetings. They they they buy very expensive things don't they? Mm. Mm. Mm. Do they buy, sort of, when they buying like Christmas presents do they lash out on them too? Oh they , yes Varying sort of choice presents are they? Oh yes they are they're nice presents and erm she said she is is sort of in charge of his suits and he can only wear a suit she takes a suit to the cleaners every three weeks. Every three weeks she has to? That's London. Yeah. And also of course he goes on the building sites he's still wearing a suit. muck aren't they? Got a a yellow hat and and a sweet little wellingtons but never-the-less there's the dust and the muck lying about. How often does he have to change the suits you know, how long do they last? I mu I must ask her how how long they do. Because they must, I mean even though Mark's are good suits, I mean they must get a lot of wear. Oh he's gets through them I know he gets He must get through them. He must have to have about half a dozen though, mustn't he? I'm sure he has half a dozen. I mean he's on the site Yeah. he's in the office and he's meeting clients. When when he has got when he's got the time to go to, I don't know where he gets them, he doesn't get them at Marble Arch Marks I think. Probably Reading. Not sure, I must ask her where he does he goes to a Marks where they always have every possible man's suit that Marks make and and he takes the time to buy two or even three because he doesn't get that much time for shopping. No he doesn't get that time what about his shirts, where are his shirts from? At Marks. Marks. And she buys them white Swiss cotton, no other. Mm. Or he occasionally buys a er a shirt with a a fine stripe in it, but he says the continentals expect you to be wearing a white shirt. Mm. A co a fine white cotton shirt. God if that's that thermostat gone! The thermostat's the worst thing innit? You've gotta Brenda they are it won't be a simple, it won't be valve. No it couldn't be possib or a mind you, a pump's the other worst one, isn't it? I've got to I've got to replace that pump I've got to brace myself on that one. The thing is you've got to it's it's like Nigel, I mean, he works for my uncle erm and he had the other guy Mark working for him for a few years and then he employed Nigel, but Mark wasn't a fully qualified plumber and Nigel was and he's ooh I don't know about I think he's about nineteen or no he's about twenty three I think, yeah Mm. twenty three he is Mm. is Nigel erm and him and his girlfriend he's just bought erm a maisonette down you know Mhm. well it's a house and Mm. turned into, sort of, like Mm. maisonettes Mhm. the ground floor he's got erm and then he's got a sort of I don't know how it's it's a big house and it's sort Mm. of like cos a maisonette's got an upstairs hasn't it, and his Yes a maisonette is a sort of two flats really, one up a maisonette you you enter usually by climbing up stairs outside. That's right well I think he's got the downstairs then, he hasn't got an upstairs Mm. I'm not sure and erm course they're you know, struggling to do the mortgage but it it's good because he you know, he's done quite a few jobs for us Mm. and I mean it's like Mm. now, I mean when he's come before we've always, sort of you know paid him, sort Mm. of, on time and Mm. whatever Mm. and normally somebody'll phone him up oh it'll be a week before I can get out. Yeah quite quite. And as I said, when you get hold of a good tradesman Mm mm. and treat them right Yes. you know y it's so Mm. these days, I mean, I know over at Windersham but they can't get a plumber and I was talking No. to the No. decorators and they were saying that their plumbers they charge a hundred pound a day! Yes quite, to come out. You know and do the work. Yeah yeah. But erm y you just can't can't Mm. get hold of good tradesman tha that you got your washing machine chap haven't you? Oh he's marvellous, yes. I mean he's what does he do? I buy everything from him but I've got to buy another tumble dryer erm I've been drying clothes off in the house and the three men and all them well two of them wearing work wear jeans and the next one that comes in will be wearing jeans, it's no go I just cannot dry stuff off in the house, I've just got to have a tumble. Too busy. And the tumble Have you got a tumble dryer then? Yes, but it's an old thing. So we freeze to death! What's the, what's going on? Well he doesn't know, he turning it off and he says we've gotta, sort of, try it and if for some reason the water gets red hot we've gotta turn the whole system down. Mm. And off. Right No no Are you sure? Yeah Paying him. Alright then I'll find out and er Cheers Nig . Alright? Thanks a lot So? Yeah. So what can't we have the heating on then? You can in a minute, yeah. Oh yeah. You can have the heating on I'll I'll check it about ten minutes but if the hot water gets really, really hot then it's the thermostat and Mm. he said turn turn the hot off but you can Mm. still have the central heating on. Mm. And he's going to have a chat with erm one of the blokes tomorrow and he's tomorrow afternoon but he's he's cured the water. The blockage? Well he's he there's a couple of a little boxes up there, little ele electronic boxes Mm. and they do it electrically or you can do it manually and he's turned them round manually and now the water's coming out normal put them back to how they were Mm. so he said perhaps that it there was a fault in there it's cured itself. Mm. Mm mm. You He was go would never have known that would you? No but he's said No. those er he said, there's something going down the pipes, I said no cos that pipe there, you can put your finger where that pipe is now and the water's flying out. Is it? So it weren't nothing blocking that up. Mm. But what so i it does he think something from the ga cos it keep coming on and off? Well he don't know cos he don't know how those, figure out how they work. It's always coming on and off though innit? Well I don't know, I never s stood and listened to it. Yeah it's always yet if you run a tap now turn the hot tap on that'll come on You haven't got again? you haven't got any hot water at the moment that's why I said that should well I would have thought he did it but you got no hot water then that should keep going until the water stops. No it doesn't you run the top tap now in the kitchen, turn it off that will ignite and come on go and try it. Yeah but you the thermostat on your tank is telling should be telling that that you've got a cold tank that's what thermostat's for. Well no because it'll tha it doesn't work like that it takes about cos it's cold it's gonna take about an hour to warm up and that won't come on that'll just cu keep coming on and off all the time till it's hottened up. Will it? Yeah it won't I mean, that won't stay on for an hour I mean I've literally had a hot bath put the water on, you know,af it goes off at nine o'clock in the morning put that radiator, put that button on to reset the hot water for five minutes it's bo boilers lit up ten minutes and then it's gone off Mm. and I think a but you couldn't go and have a bath cos the water will be stone cold. Mm. No, there's something wrong. No it's always been like that. Well I would never have thought of that. Yes because y if you've used all your hot water you can't have that boiler going for an hour or two can you? Why? Cos it'll be so hot it gets so hot that boiler Well it's it's like you trying to say you're gonna boil a pan of potatoes and you've gotta keep turning it off every two minutes, cos it'll be getting too hot! Well no because there's a ba pa pan of potatoes is a bit different to It's not no y you using a you put a boiler in for a purpose, is to heat your water up innit? Yeah I suppose so. Yeah, do you like me like this? No. Let me see if I've still got pressure, see if we, see what you think gotta pick her up. Yeah, half past nine. Wanna see the ? Did you do much in rehearsals tonight. Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah! No, mhm mm. I should clean it. I I saw that. It's gonna be filled up with water. Yes. Oh that's good is that a boat out of that shampoo lid? Yes. Jolly good, isn't it? Now right, I've gotta get two men across and I need t one two boys to fit in there and one man so two boys go across, yeah Yep that's right. that one boy stays there, one boy comes back Yeah he paddles does he? Yeah I get got paddles and that man goes there that boys comes back yeah two boys go back across Yeah. one boy stays over, one comes back Mhm. the man goes across that boy comes back Mhm. and two boys go back across. Oh well great! Come on Dave! But there'll be Oh! there there'll be a paddle so pretending there's a paddle. Yes paddle yes. I'll wrote it down this is what I wrote Yes I put I think it takes nine times to get them across so if two boys go across and one boy comes back one man goes across one boy comes back, two boys goes go across one boy comes back one man goes across one boy comes back and two boys go across. Mm that sounds right yeah Including that. Mm. We need in we don't need this. Mm. Did you know, did you get me any plasticine. No they don't sell plasticine where we went dear we'll get it tomorrow no problem. . You're barred! You know if ever you're in any sort of a well not exactly a disaster, but if ev if ever you're in some sort of uncomfortable plight er stuck in a train or anything like that the way t to cope is to go off to sleep if you can Mm. and Do I have to take that? No it's my tupperware box. I know is that Very expensive! It doesn't need to be all, all that it needs t to do is to just demonstrate. black Yes you don't have to paint it. You put some insulating tape round it cos that peels off. Mm. Wasted it it's for the house innit? Well it won't be Well no it's only seventy pee a roll it might take two rolls but at least it's, sort of, done. Mm Yeah I should do that. She already said it paints . Well alright I'll get you some. Mm. Rather than paint it cos I I wanna use that again. Ooh yes, it's very good that there cos they're I don't have to do it. six pounds. again but I might be. Well I think it looks good but like that cos it looks like clear water. Why don't you use Yes it does the other cardboard box and paint the cardboard box . Mm that's an idea. Yeah but it don't look like a sh like it does with a shoe box. Yeah. And let that sit in the shoe box and then tape the shoe box. Yeah. It's too fat to be in a shoe box. No I don't think it is. Get a big box if you got a big box from the supermarket tomorrow painted it then it You're not allowed . sit in the middle and you can fill it up up with dirt grass all round it That on there That'll be nice. like trees. That would be very nice. Yes. . Yeah. Get some glass Yeah. some bits from the garden Yeah have a lovely time! How! You got a clever old dad! Yes! But I still thinks it's just best to leave that on there. Well it's nice very nice! It's better in it's better in the Who's is that, dad's suggestion? My suggestion, didn't I? He made Mm. the holes though. Dad cleaned the holes and wasted the the hole and put it in there. Isn't it surprising at what you can make Yes. I mean, out of Yes a shampoo lid! Mm. What we need to do is don't we? Well I can I can remember when I was a child and kids had a lot of time to do hobbies and a favourite hobby was to make a a garden and I never made one, but a friend of mine was ooh forever making these things and giving them away as presents you got the lid of a biscuit tin or something of that sort and you I don't know what they used for grass they used to model little ducks and things and he had a piece of mirror to make a pond have you ever seen this done? Yeah. And it does it does look so attractive!ooh. Do you like my man's groovy hairstyle? Mm. I put white . What quarter past ten I'm gonna bed, I'll just make sure we don't forget the clock. Go a bed in a minute Where you going tomorrow, Nan? Guildford, aren't we dear? Yep it was j just finished this diary, I've got all the wrong dates! All in a muddle! Oh oh! Be able to get me some if you can, get me some green Alright. Plasticine? Nearly gotta be something special on Wednesday . Yeah i well he's just distressed cos I think Gill's phoning him in the morning and she said she'd give him a lift to the hospital. Who to? So she might be better he might be better going with Gill, I'll tell him tonight erm she's going over there at two and coming back at three thirty and she wanted Lee to go, like, at three thirty and she'd bring him back at half past eight at night. Get dad to . I don't think he'd wanna stay five hours. . Joe. He's in hospital. Why? Because he's not very well and I might say him what he can say that he'd go with her but he'd had to be back, sort of, by four cos he's going out with you he says that, that'll get him out of it then won't he? Daddy's taking him out. Cos Gill's phoning him about ten thirty what time's he coming in tonight? I thought after I was having a shave I'd come downstairs, then I thought I heard the garage door go thought Lee put his bike in, I thought perhaps he ain't gotta key Nobody knocked did they Jean? No. No no one was out there. No. So what d I want some soap what do you want Carla, Plasta Green Plasticine. Oh green Plasticine. A box remember a cardboard box. What from the supermarket? Get it there. Well why can't you walk down to the Co-op tomorrow when you're at dancing and get one yourself. Oh far better because then you'll choose the one you want. Cos I'm not I'm not near a supermarket, tomorrow No. I'm not We're not going to go anywhere near food tomorrow. Yeah I bet! What's that for then? Boots. So did you ask Tracey if she had the results? Yeah. What she say? No results. Got your results yet? This one's She was late. She was only in a in a she said she was earlier than the other one and the other came in two days time. I might actually have to take some Gaviscon tonight. Yeah. Don't be naughty! So he didn't say what time he'd be in? Well that's why I was here don't poke half nine that's why I thought it was the garage door. Mum, what can I make a paddle out of? Pencil. No. Lolly stick. Lolly stick. It's only gotta be a little tin foil. Cocktail stick. One of those bud things. Yeah cotton buds. Sort of cut in half. That looks like a paddle It does look like a paddle. No even with the white things. Cotton buds? We can leave the white things Ear picks. Yeah. In the bathroom. Like Johnson's baby buds. It looks like they're a paddle, doesn't it? Yeah. The things you put in your ear! Yeah. Yeah. Can I cover that in tin foil? Or you could leave it on it's own, couldn't you cos it's got the white things like dad's Oh yeah! got th that shaped at the end. Yeah. . That's quite a good i , go and get one and see that you cover it tin foil if you want but it'll probably be alright as it is. What a brain box ah! Yeah! Oh between the lot of us we must have some intellect. I bet that hasn't gotta be in for a week! I bet she's the only one in the whole class doing it. There's a Yeah, quite likely quite likely She's got to please the teacher all the She's enthusiastic. so much She's very and she very well motivated. Every night she comes out, I've gotta do the homework, it'll gotta be in tomorrow, normally gets a week! When's this gotta be in by then Carla ? Well look, well you can do it if you want to do it but i Mm. but you know, you don't have to do it. When I think of the difference between Carla and Neil Neil doesn't really want to do anything! Oh she's gotta be Absolutely bumbling over with life. Should see her work, her books! I mean my poor Neil tried to commit suicide in nineteen eighty nine. Mm. Took seventy aspirin! It was fu ah! It was funny she did erm What looks better?a or The tin foil. b? Yes. The simple one mm. The tin foil That one looks nice. Mm. When's this gotta be in by? Monday . Is everybody gonna do it or is it your choice if you do it? You can either draw it model it made me draw the last one I'll model it this time, it's good fun! Mm. If you use the So this one looks better? You said you had to model it but make it, squeeze it in the middle so it's fatter at the ends that's it, so it looks like a canoe Bren! paddle, yeah. What's that back of your car? Oh I've opened the boot I gotta bring, you wanna bring all the shopping in Dave, ha ha? Mm mm mm mm mm mm. Y you ca you can talk to Jean there's that paper. Bring it in. Mm mm mm mm. What ha what about if all the pen, what if I put some extra tin foil just a bit at the end. Oh I don't know really I haven't thought. I got a bit left over from when I cut it I'll just bring it in this bit, there. I've sort of squeezed the tin foil so that it it fits very, very tightly around the middle. Oh ah! And then it bulges at the end, you see, that'll do cos if you What about if I do an extra bit at the end? Well I don't think it'll be a good idea at all because my no my knowledge of tin foil leads me to believe that tin foil wrapped on tin foil falls off. Oh! I think you'll be better off with it like that. Where's my ? Not yours! Can I have my my twee? Oh lovely! . . from Marks. well it's good ! Well that got me to a lot of good for warmth! Got not sleeves in it! Stick that on the wall, want to put it up there, see if you can ? Mm. Oh I like the little red basket. Isn't it lovely, I I fell in love with it, Brenda, I really did. And you'll be pinching all the chocolates off this! Yes. But once up you can put in fro you know, you can afford to put some little bows and some Yeah. little decorations yourself, can't you on it? They just, they just it's just as you say it's got a think a with the top bit will got straight up Yeah. the top bit is called the Dover Can you pass that card again, I didn't have a closer look, did you buy it here? Oh well do have do have a closer look Oh no you've got ! Yeah . Yeah. Yeah, thought I wouldn't notice! Oh look! Oh yeah! That goes up That's right, that will go up where Where? all the little branches will open out it's going to look extremely nice when it's er when it's displayed. And this year they've got some de like this beautiful gold and silver out! It's nice isn't it? Yes. They really have got some Yes. Mum do you reckon I should make two paddles ? Could do but I No there's only boat one boat only needs one pair of paddles. Have they ? Yeah so you want two paddles on don't you? Oh they do I see yes. If it's if it's a Mm mm. either cos that's a C Canadian paddle. Cos look if they're going that way they need th they need the paddle outwards Mhm. but if they're going that way they need it Can I change my water So please? Oh no no I've dropped the paddles! Ooh! What we're doing is, when they've gone to What about, if you're going that way you need the paddle away from you, don't you? way. Does she If you go there you need it here, so actually do you think I should have two paddles? Well when you're going that way you need that one mum how can I stick that on there? I cos if they're supposed to be cos if they're gonna go rowing Do you remember that programme that was on the telly, where those people went ? Mum it's meant to be a canoe, but this is gonna be I'm using this instead. pulling itself along the road. She's not gonna be like that How come? I put it there. Oh I see, that's just the guiding pole. You could have had a paddle like this Mm. right cut that lot off the top right Don't mess it! I'm not gonna cut it, hang on, listen cut that off at the top Mhm. another paddle you can have instead of having them at the side and have one man and bursar Don't they look lovely those bags? S sitting at the back of the boat like that and how Those Marks and Spark's bags, can you see them all? That's in the water, that's underneath the water, right? And push it, like that that's how you know like they do in the gondolas that Ooh yeah. Vienna. Mm. That's how they do them, right? Mm. No I was telling you she did this this erm maths and she got a ah at the end of it she got a, like, pleasing work and at the end of it the teacher had written erm your work is beautifully presented Carla erm you work i instead of your work and Kim says that teacher's a bit naughty she's missed the r out! So she went and told her she said Mm mm. You know, Mrs it's nice but, you know, you've missed the r out, she said have a house point, she said Mm. the good I disc! a disc Good for her. that was it. Good for her yes mm. How Mm. can tell if y a extra hot then? . Well it w you wouldn't be able to bury your hat under would you? Mum, I made another hole. Did you rub it? You wouldn't be able t Yeah another hole. like a pig. And shouldn't you, you've done the spare kitchen scissors good! They're my sewing scissors! I say! Every sewing scissor I get in this house Anybody got a compass? Mm there. Well we don't need to do it now, cos you're going to bed oh! What's that in there? Well tired, we're not in a desperate hurry to be done tonight, you're not gonna have them now. Desperate hurry we are not in a desperate hurry. You're going to bed! She maybe in a desperate hurry ! Go on then gotta sit down and do the list and see what and see what, what's what Just now, you feel that warmth on you now? My legs were so cold you could really feel the draft! Mm! Well you could couldn't, you put your coat on. want the door shut, Jean? Sorry dear? Do you want the door shut, there that makes it No it's alright no Sure? Quite sure. makes it drafty Yeah I'm very much warmer now. Are they ? Yeah. That's the draft then, I can feel it, it's freezing, Jean with that Is it? it really is Mm course I've got this thing over my feet, cos I getting faint. You take it off and you this is the er survival technique take your coat off supposing you in London tube and it's broken down plus this thing's not as useful, do you remember what happened,know how starts to get cold, take you w wearing a coat in winter take your coat off Dad ! and put it so that it goes over your feet without a front garden get your feet warm put your hands inside and if you've got a scarf or anything put it over your What? head. For the banks. So that you keep the heat of your body In. from escaping through the top and if you're i if it's a fa you know, there's some light or disturbance you and want to sleep and the best thing to do is to go into a light doze cos, you know, you can't do much else that's cover your face. Keeps all the warmth of body heat in. Mm body warmth. Go on Carla, upstairs and get your jim-jams on say night night to Jean. Hey! Oh night darling! Carla ! Ha ha ha. Ha ha ha ha. Yeah ! Yeah, can you take these two cups to dad please darling? I just hope these bags and beans. What did dad cook you for your dinner? Pizza and waffles. Ooh great! Ooh! Ah! And . What did you have? We had chicken curry Yes. and a piece of flapjack. Flapjack yes. Fatties yeah ! What's Oh ah! But we couldn't eat all the curry it was very, both of us at one time, we could have scoffed the lot! Yes. Your stomach, obviously with this virus, your stomach's reduced isn't it? It is it is and I'm not fighting to get it back again. No. At least I you see, with the virus I was sometimes in such a state that I thought I might have bowel cancer and cancer, that's right, I remember you saying and years ago Doctor said to me if you start to lose weight and y and y and I said if you're you're a plump girl so he said if you start to lose weight and you can't understand why try to put some on he said Oh. stop worrying about you know, losing any try and put a couple of pounds on if you can't then come to us and we'll find out what's wrong Mm. and we'll catch it early and so I haven't been, sort of, saying to myself ooh I've lost some weight, I'll try to lose more at the moment I'm not worrying too much about what I eat I wasn't when I lost it! Because I can't I can't eat all that much No when I lost it I th I don't want to be this thin I want to put it on again. I went out I went out with Peggy er on Wednesday er for meal and she's been saving Daily Telegraph vouchers and when you got so many vouchers you send them up to the Daily Telegraph, who's sent them, it's offers closed now and they send you a thing like a credit card and they send you a list of all the places that you can go to for a half- price meal Hey! daddy turn off the erm ! you can take a friend and whichever of you has the cheaper meal that's what Free. they give you and that's and that's Oh that's free. and that comes free, that's right, that comes free so two people go out and they share the cost of the meal. Oh that's a good idea, isn't it? I couldn't eat the damn meal I had erm steak and kidney puddings, no steak and kidney pastry pie. Was it a pub meal? Yes, well a a very nice pub. Yeah but they do some, those pub meals they reckon now are best value for money and the most They are. filling. They are erm it was er steak and kidney pie, brussels sprouts, carrots and bo plain boiled potatoes I could only eat about half the kidney and meat, I cou I could only eat about a third of the pastry, couldn't cope with the carrots at all or the brussel sprouts, they were beautiful brussel sprouts like little cabbages, you know I could only eat a couple of them! Okay can Right you go and get your jimmy-jams on, I'll be up. I had sherry trifle of des as a desert and I ga gave Peggy half of it! God It's not like me, I mean I normally yum yum yum! Well that meal tonight wasn't exceptionally big that curry It wasn't, it was a standard portion. normally we'd eat that and a great big gateaux! That's right! But I mean no I think I think it's obviously sort of sort of reduced Oh yes yes. and you,, I used to eat so slow they'd all all sort of finish and I was still sort of tuck Mm. I said I don't know what i Mm. whether, I dunno, what it is whether it is your your tummy reduced or I don't know erm one of the most interesting, in some ways. one of the nicest things that happened to me since I've been widowed is having Neil to look after not only is he an exception Oh I wondered what you. What have you got in that little bag? Oh we've got some make-up. Oh. Dickens and Jones. Do you wanna drink of fresh juice or something? Er I don't think so. you have some too . No? Alright then. No I don't want any. if that's what you fancy. I'm fine. Anyway I feel that I've been thoroughly tea'd up. . Tea'd and coffee'd. Do you wanna put this on? Yes please. I want to clean my face. I'm very interested to see what this is going to be like. Is this new Brenda? No. It's years old . Is it? It's nice. It's one we normally keep in the attic but we've been keeping it down here Mm. now because of it's like Lee if James sleeps they sleep in the erm down here. They camp out. James uses it down here Have you got a rubbish bag ? That plumber didn't charge Dave anything. Oh that's nice isn't it? That's kind. So Dave will just get him some cigarettes or something. They say that it's the poor that helps the poor and that's how I've found it goes quite honestly. Well he's, he's he's a sweetie he is. Mm. Oh I like that. Have you got it on? No I haven't. Oh that is nice. I like that very much. Yes. Unforgettable. Is it a new one? Revlon. Mm. You see I've decided that I'm going to leave Clinique the the expensive make-up er for some, you know until I get myself re-established financially. And erm Revlon is a very very good medium priced range. Ooh we've we've brought home half of Marks and Spencers with us. Isn't it lovely? . Erm I think what we'll do is we'll write down I've got this nice big paper what we've got Yes. and what we've gotta get, you know who they're for. Yes. Right. Right. Er Jean Brenda presents for It was no good my making a list before I came down because I just hadn't seen anything like this in the Marks in Norwich. Well the thing is you probably wouldn't have a day would you? No. To be honest No. with Peggy or anybody. No. Going to get this amount. No. No way. Because you wouldn't, you'd think oh no, no they wouldn't want that, we wouldn't want that. And same as me. Mm. I wouldn't think We're definitely good for each other Mm. as shoppers. But what I thought I'd do is like for Ellie and Linda for Christmas presents say, I mean you know it won't be a a lot but that'll be it Mm. and I would sort of put that in there. Yeah. Pair of knickers in there Yeah. Like that. Yeah. And then something like erm Do you know I think that I should have got something like that for Shirley shouldn't I? These are lovely these boxes. Bits and pieces. Yeah. We'll see And another thing, I know my my ironing lady er Lynn, she does car boots every week. And she actually sells erm junk earrings a pound a pair. Mm. I mean they're not very but Ellie and Linda Yes. up in Wisbech they love that sort of thing. You know I mean sort of Yes. Yes. Is Ellie in Wisbech now? She's been there for the last month. Yeah. With your mum? Yeah. She's gotta, met another boyfriend up there. She dumped Steve. Yes I knew she'd dumped Steve. Yes. But that I mean I you know you can sort of screw that up. But I just thought that if you could afford it Yes. you could put something extra to it. Yes. But if not I mean you've got the tissue paper there. Yes. And then you've got the like even the stickers Yes. look it's lovely Yes it is. design paper on there. Yes. Yes. And the stickers to seal the actual box. Well then I don't think, I don't know about you, but I don't think personally that needs wrapping up. No it doesn't. No it doesn't. It's it's own wrapping. Look it's one under the you know and then whatever Mm. even if you didn't put Mm. you know I mean people would think you got it from Marks and Sparks cos it's got the label Mm. Mm. Yeah. Mm. You seal it and I mean I think that's lovely. Mm. I mean you know how much boxes are. Quite. I mean to get the tissue paper Yes. and the labels Mm. and the cards for ninety nine p. That's not bad. Right so that's and Jane. Right, Jean. . Right who's is this for? Ooh. Son-in-law. For Mitch. Son-in-law. Mitch. Mm. Mitch. Erm what do we put? Basket of smellies? Basket of toiletries. Yes. put this as we do it Yes. Right. over there. Yeah. And then we can actually see And then perhaps put Marie-Ann's next. Yeah. That was, that's lovely isn't it? Yes. Daughter. Marie-Ann. Marie-Ann Basket of toiletries. Right. Then I got, didn't I get for Kim that the was the one I got, I got the mini version didn't I? Yes. For Kim. That's lovely that is. Yes. It's nice again to keep isn't it? Mm. She loves, she, I mean she loves the Body Shop. Aha. But even that doesn't need wrapping does it? No. Look put your lot sort of separate from mine Separate. and we can see how we're going. That's right yeah. Yeah. And what we've spent then can't we? Erm Kim box smellies. So what erm Now shall I do daughter-in-law? Marie. Erm fruit. How do you spell Marie? M A R I E. A R I E. It's like Marie? Mm. Mm. Erm right. What did you put for her? Er bottled fruit. Yeah. And tin of sweets. Are these what? No. No what are they are. They're biscuits aren't they? Continental biscuits. Ah yes. Are they hers? They're hers, yes. And, and the tin of sweets as well. That's right, yeah. Tin of sweets. So that's three items. Then I've got Aunt Ivy. I'm gonna chat to Lee for five minutes. Mm. So I got them for Rob Chewchocks Chewchocks So you didn't get any of these did you? No. No. Right. Decided that they were too expensive for people. Hi Lee. Hi. Hi Jean. Hi, Hi. How are you? Not bad. I'll be in in a minute. Here we are. Ouch. Cat er one of the cat's fleas must have bitten me last night. What, I tell you what I don't see. Where's the, where's the cat book for Marge ? I did buy it, did I? Where's the list? Price. Where's where's the receipt? You had it. Did I. Aha. You got it, you put it with your card. Ah right. Yeah that looked unless we left another bag in the car. Give it to me. I'll have a look. Yeah. Er Christmas crackers gifts gifts gifts . No, I don't think you bought it. Ah. You had it in your hand. Yeah. But I was a bit doubtful about it wasn't I? Do you remember? I kept on saying these pictures are a bit too bright. And we've seen these cats over and over again . How are you then? Not too bad thanks. You're late tonight. Dad said that you'd be in at half nine. No he said I wouldn't be late. Oh. So how did your work experience go today? Er it's not too bad. I've done my diary for the Was it a bit boring? Don't they set you much work? Not a lot, no. I just done my dia , done three and a half sides of the diary. Oh that's good. So is that finished. . And that's about it really. Been Christmas shopping. Yeah. We're on tape four. Fourth tape? Yes. Yes. Yak yak yak yak yak. We er we can't got to bed until we've done at least five. Ooh. Is this just starting? Yeah, just on the Oh. Erm Any phone calls? No. Tomorrow, cos dad's erm Nigel's gonna be phoning dad in the afternoon. So Jill's gonna phone you tomorrow, but you're not going out tomorrow morning are you? No. Jill's phoning you tomorrow morning. So it might be easier she said that she's going to visit Vic at two o'clock Mm. till about half three. Then she's coming home and then she's going back over there about six o'clock till eight o'clock. And she was gonna said, that she was gonna drop you off there at two then pick you up again at eight. Now you're not gonna wanna be six hours at a hospital bedside are you? And er Clare said tonight she's going and Joe's gonna probably pop over tomorrow. What time are they going? Well they just said tomorrow, Clare said tomorrow evening then Joe said oh no I'm gonna go Sunday. And Clare said oh I'm going tomorrow. So what I thought to do, if Jill phones tomorrow morning Mm. cos dad's gonna be working now till about three anyway so he's not gonna be able to take you. Say to Jill, yes you could go over with her at two o'clock and then come back with her about four. And just you're just gonna nip in with dad then and try and get your suit. Mm. Yeah? Yeah. I looked at that one again at Burtons today. Erm and the, is is James' sort of like the lightish grey, was it eighty nine, ninety nine sort of a slate sort of grey? Dunno. Might be. It's not, it's not a light grey with lines in it? Sort of, looks almost sort of shinyish? I don't know. I can't remember. You can't remember? Well they've got that No. and they've also got it in a dark green which is really nice. In a dark green? Yeah. Sort of erm Burtons in Woking? Yeah. It's sort of like an olivey green. Not bottle green. It's sort of like erm what's an olive green in here Jean? Well I was just looking round, is it like the colour of that Yes. Very sort of lighter than, no lighter than that. That's bottle It's a lot lighter than that. Yes. Something like in that picture. Mm. It's like that. Yeah. Mm. Mm. Have you seen it? Yeah well that's eighty nine plus there's fifteen percent off. What are the ones that the Italians wear called? Special ones. What do you call the double-breasted Italian suits? Don't remember. But what I'll do is, if tomorrow I get time I'll have a look in erm Top Shop. If I'm over that way. And if there is any decent suits then I'll let you know. Mhm. And then if you don't get it tomorrow perhaps one night after school It might be easier just to hire one. No. Why pay fifty quid to hire one? It's ridiculous. When you're gonna pay seventy five quid and you've got one. Mm. Mm Yeah but where am I gonna wear it again? I'll would outgrown it within a few months. Well no you buy a size bigger. Oh definitely yes. You like them bigger. I mean you buy it you're not gonna, I mean alright you're gonna have a bit more grown but you're only gonna get a bit more muscly. And you like them baggy anyway, you don't get one that fits you er buy That's why I said it would have been probably better to pay the extra twenty quid and bought the Italian style double- breasted Mm. for their baggy effect see. Yeah but where can you buy them? Tut that shop next door to erm Intersports. Suit and Co I think that's called. No. That it's a nice man's shop. It's a beautiful man's shop. Yeah I know. It's dear. Yeah but I don't, see savings they've got on suits at the moment, special offers on them cos they're not shifting them. But it's ridiculous you fifty quid a night to hire a suit. Because you pay your fifty pound and that's it. But this suit, I mean. That's what I said if you buy a grey suit the trousers you'll, I mean alright if you don't, I mean you'll wear, grey won't date. Will it Jean? No. No. It never dates. Green will date. Yes. And you'll get bored with it. Mm. Yeah. But grey will not, I mean Granddad Sid's Goes on forever. sixty five and he's still wearing his grey suits. Yes. Yes. I mean dad got married in his suit. I mean now he's given it to granddad. But grey, the actual It doesn't fit him. Yeah it doesn't fit him. I mean it hasn't, I mean dad's was quite an expensive suit when he got married. I mean alright that's eighteen years ago. And the trous I mean the jacket never I mean very rarely does a suit jacket style change. The trousers you get flared, but that's no problem cos you just have them altered. If you have them you know I mean I can't see, I mean you wear your trousers baggyish and long . It's not it's not time for flared trousers yet. No. That's what I'm saying. It's not time. And I haven't got no shoes to go with whatever I get. Well, you'll get a pair of shoes . Well you got to have shoes, we know you've got I mean you've got, need new school shoes. You've gotta have this new pair of shoes as well. No good worrying about it Lee, you've got I mean, you can't you've gotta have the things you've gotta have. Mm. But you'll have to get your moonboots and things like that. You'll have to buy them for your skiing trip. Mm. sort of been given a hundred pound upstairs. Because that's what they money they'd owed you? Does he? And it well you're meant to get fifteen pound aren't you, he's meant to pay you for the work? Yeah. But you haven't got fifteen pound. You're a bit skint. Well I'm going to chip in with thirty aren't I? Jean's gonna help towards your trip too. Okay. Thanks Jean. And nan's gonna help so Oh yes You'll cope with it but you've gotta buy, your moonboots we should be able to get the market Jill said around, I mean we can get them in cash and carry for nine ninety nine but we should be able to get them at Blackbushe market for five to six ninety nine. Yeah. We've managed to hire the jackets the Salopettes the ski glasses the socks I've sorted out, I've told nan to buy you for Christmas. That's no problem. The anorak we've hi we've borrowed. So we've borrowed everything erm oh you've gotta buy some proper ski gloves. You want those cos they're thirty seven quid aren't they and they're in the sale for seventeen quid at the moment. Half price. Yeah I saw that but it's not, they're going quite quickly. Because Yes I'd I'd pounce on those because has got? We might have a look in Intersport cos Woking Yeah. But I looked today in erm cash and carry sport and they were the same price. No they were nineteen quid. But they were the short ones. The ones you want are the good long ones aren't they? And thermal Your hands are really warm. I know and they're thirty odd quid. The right price. Mm. And what are they down to? Seventeen ninety nine. Throw your body across them. Yeah. We'll see if we can pick up a pair of them. Mm. Perhaps you can have them for Christmas or something. Erm so we've managed to hire everything so all you've gotta, you've gotta buy is your moonboots. Mhm. Erm the suit you've got to have. You've got to have I've got to have that by December the thirteenth. Yeah well if we don't get it tomorrow we'll have to go one night, it's late night shopping till nine o'clock. Mm. If dad's on his half past four, if he can get to kip if you go over at seven o'clock one night. It's not gonna take you, it's only gonna take you and dad an hour isn't it? Mm. But he's got to do it on Access because there's no money in the bank to write a cheque out and pay for the suit. So I can't go and do it. Have I got any cash cards? No and you're not having cash cards either. Why? What do you want a cash card for? No it's You can't draw out cash if it isn't there. And, and that's the trouble with the cash card. You you tend to think You can't have a cash card with a post office account anyway. No. No with the Alliance though. Yeah but what do you wanna cash card for? So I can get money out if I ever need it. Yeah but that money is, you've saved and I mean nan put that in when you were younger too, a lot of it. So I mean it's for when you're older. When you're desperate, you need it, not to just draw out and spend. I know. I won't just draw out and spend. No you don't You will you know. I'm the expert on that. Mm. I've drawn out and spent. Because it was there. I I mean it's ever so difficult to resist the temptation Mm. to spend money. It it, it's like me. If I had an Access card I would buy him this that and everything. And I'd say oh come on we'll buy the suit. Mm. And then right, and then you can also buy the shirt and tie. Mm. You can afford that. Cos you've got all that money saved. We've had to sponge off him all week. Borrow all his money. And it ended up we owed him say ninety quid. I know. I know . Mind you he went out and he had to have er erm mind you he's had that, when you think of it you've had half of that back. I said to Dave I said how have you spent all that money? He said I've been giving Lee dinner money every day. I said well I wondered, he didn't ask me for it. I said I thought he was using his own. No all he's given me each day is paper money plus about one fifty. So all together given me about five pounds. Yeah well it adds up. Yeah I know. And we had to pay fifteen quid for the train ticket. So that's another twenty quid. We've gotta pay for your computer. It adds up dreadfully . I mean I'm subbing one well I'm subbing two of my lodgers. I'm subbing Neil but that's out of money which he gives me and which really in theory ought to be for my own, own use you know for fun but I get housing benefit for him, from the council. And most of that goes back to him for his karate and a pint of beer in the pub. And I, I sort of dole out a little here and a little there. And I'm also subbing my lodger Paul. Erm and it, it it mounts up. By the time you've bought them some cigarettes and given them some money for the pub and said well if there er and the car hasn't got any petrol so you pay for ten pounds worth of petrol. You're through fifty pounds before you can blink an eyelid. Mm. It's one of the well known things about money. How much would you say, this lot here was Lee? Including these and that here? Yeah. They're all Neil's presents. Erm Was there a sale on? No. No? Sixty? Two hundred and fifty nine. Two hundred and fifty nine? Yeah. That was it, wasn't it Brenda? No more because I then paid another thirty approximately for that two hundred and eighty nine for that that, that came to twenty seven and I had there were two items inside it, I forget what they are. There's another nearly thirty pound cheque on top of the Marks and Spencer charge card. Soon goes my darling. What time did you get in from the shopping? Mm weren't too bad. About quarter to eight. Mm. Didn't start until about twenty to six. Dad said you went out at four. Yeah we went and had something to eat first then . You wouldn't like to make me and Jean a nice cup of tea would you please, darling. I'm not very well. Why? My throat hurts. Well you've be alright going out tonight. I haven't. Well you've gone out so bloody well go and do one. Move your butt. And I've got in the morning. Well yeah. Nigel's been round. Has he actually been round. Yeah. We've gotta keep an eye on the water. Mm. Does it work now then? What does that radiator feel like? Hot. Very hot? No that's alright. Just hot? Mm. Seems alright. It's alright. You'll the turn the erm heating off when, when you go to bed won't you? Oh yeah. And I'll check the hot water and if it's really sort of Yes. . Come on make me a nice cup of tea. We're doing our list now though. Right so that's Sid slippers. Go on, clear off. Go to bed. I'm not gonna go to bed. Right so who's are these. Eh? I'm not going to bed. Oh. Cup of tea please. Shirley. They've got a padded stocking in here for comfort. Isn't that nice. I don't know how Jean has hers. Little bit of sugar. Mm. Quite darkish. Mm. Not too much milk and a tiny bit of sugar. Shirley ? Shirley yes. Oh I see Marge's book. It's underneath the Christmas cards. Well I'm blowed if I saw it on, on that receipt. Probably came under the heading gifts. Eight four o nine three six. Yeah gifts. Six ninety nine. I suppose, yes. Right so that's Marge. Neil's before he goes away. Erm That's right, tape for travel. Travel pack. Mm. Mhm. Travel pack. Sweat top. I must say, it does look gigantic. Do you wanna get Lee to try it on? Good idea. Yes. It's not big Jean. I don't think that looks big. Oh well I'll take it anyway. I was thinking I might change it in Guildford tomorrow I won't. No. I won't. It's not very big. I mean Mm. You are more expert on this. I mean Yeah. I mean I even with Lee I could, I could not have coped with caring for Neil. Taking care of Neil. If I hadn't had you for advice Advice on it. and help. Lee I would, I mean I always buy Lee large or extra large. Mm. Mm. Mm. Because but they don't, I mean Lee alright, I mean I know by just looking at him what he, like his T-shirts and everything Mm. how he, how he sort of wears them. Mm. Yeah. And jog bottoms. Did we buy both the same? Think we did. Are they both black? Cos Neil only wears black. Yeah. They're both black. Both mediums. Both the same. Just make sure oh that's the . Well we'll give Neil the slightly longer Mm. cos he's got longer legs then. Mm. Dave. Mm. So that's, was that for Neil as well? Yes. Ooh. So that will do Neil, what you've got him. Oh yes. Cos you got him a travel pack, body spray, sweat top, jog bottoms. Mm. Yeah. Erm I'll probably buy some sweets and probably a, a a paperback horror or something. God that smell smells nice dunnit? How much was that then? It wasn't one of the dearer versions of anything. I think it was only about two ninety nine. I'm not sure. o three one ninety nine. Oh it smells really nice. Mm. Yes. It's a body spray isn't it? Yeah. Body spray. Mm. Mm. So that's Neil. And oh what's this for? Er son-in-law. Son-in-law. Mitch. Mitch. Right, sweat bottoms top dad. Here are your sloggi's Ta. Right who's is this for? Erm what is it? We've got er lotion talc soap talc shampoo talc soap and lotion aftershave gel oh no aftershave showergel deodorant talc shampoo What about? Now what . What about Shelley's husband? That's probably it. Yes. It might well have been ,might well have . Cos it's, I mean even his I mean have they got a shower? Oh yes, yes. All the houses along there have. Yeah. Yeah that would do. Cos you were gonna get him something, you was gonna get him some slippers. But I mean Terry Mm. What do you, what sort of money do you want to spend on Terry? I mean what other men How much was that? Eight three six four Here's your tea. Oh bless you. Thank you lovey. Ta. Four ninety nine. Do you know, I think that would do rather well for Ron . Can you just pass me a mat love. Yeah cos you don't wanna spend a lot do you? No I don't. Would you like a mat Jean? Oh. Do I need one? Yeah. On the floor. Oh yes. Yes. So let's give that to Ron. Yeah. Yeah. Let's just see roughly Right. Night. Night night dear. So you don't want you're in the morning? Night Jean. Yeah oh I'll get up about nine. What time are you off out? Oh I'll be out nine thirty so I expect I'll be up about half seven. Well save me the bath water please. You need to wake me up about half past eight Alright then . nine. See you later. Bye love. See you in the morning love. Quietly cos of Yeah. Right. Let's just write roughly Mm. before we Mm. Let's leave that Mm. The toiletries. Cos we've got some extra sort of men Yes. Yes. Erm leave that one cos that's what I bought as a spare. You, that's yours is it? That one? Yes. That's mine. It's the one ninety nine one isn't it? Mhm. Erm. That's for my sister-in-law Rosemary. Now there are two men's items. Those er tuxedos in the boxes that look like tuxedos. Who did I get those for? One's mine and one's yours for Paul. For Paul. Of course. What's Rosemary? R O S E? Er Rose that's right, R O S E. And then Mary, M A R Y. Night. Night night dear. Night. See you in the morning. Right, pot pourri? Erm Peggy . God you've got loads Jean. seems a lot of money. Oh I have got a lot of things. Yes. You've got a lot of presents. Yes. Er now who's the other, that I bought two pot pourri Yeah. They're both yours. Erm. You said they can two have it. Who's the other lady? Who do you have a coffee morning with? Jean . I'm not gonna keep those knickers for me. I'm gonna give them as Christmas presents. I can't afford to keep them . What's that love, you're muttering? I got these for me Aha. but I'm gonna give them with them. Yeah. As Christmas presents yes. Mm. For the moment. Yeah. Ellie, Linda pants socks nice box That's a jolly nice present. Knickers and socks. Then I might get a couple of little soaps or something. Mm. Or what I might do is make a couple of these up but fill them out a bit more. Mm. Cos these are just say for her teacher. We've done them cheap. Yeah. Yeah. But put say like in the Body Shop and get a couple of animal soaps. So they're you know they'll be like that. Mm. And then obviously if you have more weight in it they'll be really bushy. Mm. Mm. Mm. I'm not doing that now. And that's Jane's little boxes. Oh there's sweets. Now I, I bought those er corn dollies for both of them. Yes. I think, hang on right er one's Lee's they're Lee's er So that's all I've got for Paul is it? What was in, what was in the tuxedos exactly? Was it talc and how much were they? Two ninety nine. Two ninety nine? I think I should get him something else. Got talc, shampoo Yeah I think something to go with it. Mm. Why don't you give him I was going to say get, make a pack that. You, you're gonna get Neil something else aren't you? Yes. Of course I am. So let's cut the body spray out of Neil. Mm. Yeah. Paul erm tut Tuxedo box and body spray. And then that's that's mine. When I go home I'll take that list with me. Mm. Might have to rewrite it. Cos it's got my list and that on so we'll probably Well we'll tear it down the middle I mean, you know Yeah. you'll have half, I'll have half and we can see what we're doing. Erm so we're left with Yeah, the dollies. And you bought them too, both of them. I did. Both of them, yeah. And I'm just trying to think what I had in mind. Or did I buy them as odd presents for people who might like them? You know Cos we've got one of those each one of those each one of those each they're all yours. But they're all mine. Yeah. That's the odd one. You, you bought that odd one didn't you? They're my sweets. That's my odd. Yeah. So you're left with four. I think my dollies are odds. What about this? Bought that for me didn't I? Oh is that for you. For that, for when I move into my own bedroom again. Alright. So that's for you. But it could always of course come in as an odd. Write it down as an odd. Yeah well well that's what we've got. What we've got so far is erm okay. You've got Mitch basket, toiletry and sponge. Mary-Ann basket toiletries. Mary-Ann bottled fruit, biscuits, sweets No that's Marie, bottle Marie I mean Yeah. Yeah. Erm bottled fruit, biscuits, sweets. Shirley you got slippers. Marge you got a cat box, book. Neil you got travel pack, sweat top, jog bottoms. Rosemary you got tissue box. Peggy you got pot pourri. Jean you got pot pourri. Paul tie box smellies and body spray. We're left now Right I wonder who I who have I left out? Let's go through. Jean to get right let's do your son. What's he having, money or a tie or? I haven't got anything for him have I? No. Cos you was gonna buy that sweater in Marks weren't you? Mm. And then decided it just wasn't right. You see I can't afford to spend a great deal on anyone this year. So I think I oughtn't to spend more than about twelve or thirteen pounds on him. You've spent more on the others. Well how, how much have I spent? I mean don't, don't count Neil because Oh no. Neil is quite different, you know. He's a special case. I meant your three yeah but no I mean, I'm just talking about your three main family. No. Mary-Ann is having what's that erm basket of toiletries? About twelve ninety nine was it? Mm. And Marie the present of food? Marie mm seven fifty oh yeah. It's all about thirteen Yes. I think I'm keeping it to under twenty. Erm so what shall I get him? A tie? Trouble is in the past I've given him Liberty silk ties. Mm. And anyway I can get them in the sale if I choose to fight my way up to London I can get a Liberty tie for about twelve pounds. Mm. I mean they're normally forty five or forty. let's get the book. Aha. And that's how did it. Mm. What about a belt? A leather belt. Well there again you see, it's you're talking about er dinkies. Double income no kids. Er how about Oh. I know what I was going to give John. Wine. Wine. Of course. Now I shan't buy that Right. You can get that up your way can't you? I can get that locally. Yes of course that solves that one. So wine. Okay. Erm so Marie's got, John's got so that's family's gone. Now who else is? Right Mary-Ann you've got, Mitch you've got. What about the grandchildren? The grandchildren I think money. Right. So that's what are the kids' names? Matthew and Ruth. Well I have in the past given them fifty each for Christmas but this year they're going to have to make do with twenty. Oh yeah. You see I know I haven't Why don't you get Ruth, I mean from Marks. I don't you see I don't know my granddaughter. This is the sad thing in my life that I have never been in contact with my grandchildren. Mm. The thing is they do get a lot from the daughter don't they? I know. Book token. Yeah? I think so. For Ruth a book token. And what about erm a Smith's token for Matthew? Mm. Mm. Because you can get records, books, stationery Yeah. videos, computer games. I'll get a Smith's token for both of them. Yeah. They are better cos you Yeah. you can't go wrong. No. That's sorted out. So that's all side. Right, what about sisters and sister-in-laws or brother-in-laws? Is there anybody left? I shall just write to Wynn and Bill and send a Christmas card. I I mean poor Wynn I haven't, haven't been in touch with them for weeks and months and the longer you leave it the worse you feel about it, you know? Mm. You get guilty. And I can't send them a present. Well you don't see them so there's not a lot of point is there? No. No. Erm erm okay. So what about Rosemary? Is she the only one who's going to be around at Christmas? You've got hers but is she the only one to be at your 's? Mm. Yes. Yeah. What about Mary-Ann's parents? Marie's parents? I never bother with them. No. Erm tut oh Mitch's parents oh erm No I don't bother with them. They're probably away on yet another holiday. They're forever gadding off on expensive holidays. Mm. . That's alright. I shall just send them a card. So I think that's all down. Mm. Oh was gonna get the weren't you? Oh yes. Right. That's all down in Surrey. Er right right Ron . Mm. Now who in Ron's, what about his girlfriend? Er Right . Who's she? Trudy. So who goes for Trudy? Sorry? Who goes for Trudy? Ron. Ron. So is there not enough for Ron? How much was that one? Can you remember. Four ninety nine. See I've already got Ron a big tin of Liquorice Allsorts. Which I've hidden from him, of course. I think I might just get a couple of nice hankies to go with them. One ninety nine, two ninety nine. If we go and see them in Marks. . No Debenhams. We're going to Debs? Yeah. Right. Yeah. I'm gonna do the list what you've gotta get and then I'm gonna do another list of what we've got to before tomorrow. Good. Ron erm hankies. So Two roughly. Could Erm right let's Could you write down on that that I've, in brackets that for Ron I've got tin of Liquorice Allsorts. It's a handsome tin. And I might, I think I'll put in there, I'll make him up a basket of goodies with erm a few telephone stamps on a card and ooh I don't know what. One or two items of biscuits or something like cos he's Ron is often I think hungry. Does he like, he likes sweets and things like that? He does, yes. He's got a very sweet tooth. I'm just gonna put this in while erm as we're going along. What are you having to put down dear? Erm your name, your occupation, your age Oh right. and just you're it's just to say who's on who's on this actual tape so they can recognize the voice. Yes. The age. Yes. Yes. Yes. So the want us to break it down erm so they know oh I'm so stupid. I've done it again. I'm four B. Right. What did I get for Terry in the end? Oh you didn't. You were gonna get him some Oh that's right. I'm gonna guess at the size. He's very tall so I'll guess at nine. That's what I've done with Dave's dad. Mm. Yeah. Oh who's this Terry? Mm? Terry did you say? Terry . Yes. And I've got Shirley slippers and I'm getting him slippers and that's it, that's the sensible thing to have done. Yeah. Oh and I know what. I'll give that to Russell , the boy. I was just gonna say what about the son? Mm. Russell's box smellies. It's easier . That's for Russell. So in Ron, Ron's family again so that's all , Ron, Trudy and Russell. Yeah? When are you buying those three? Ron? Russell and Trudy. Oh. What did I say for Trudy? The roses? You got the roses for Ron. You got for the daughters and you're gonna get them some, two hankies to go with it. That's right. Yes. Erm okay so it's she, Shirley you got slippers and Terry you're getting slippers. Mhm. Yeah? Mm. Erm Marge you've got. Got erm the cat book. I'd like to get her something else as well. Marge er I wonder if Marge would like a corn dolly? Let's give her the corn dolly. Yeah they're that they were rather good ones. Oh I don't know. No this is perhaps not quite right for Marge but I tell you who I have left out, Jackie and . Well we'll sort them out in a minute. Erm we'll do all your friends first. Mar so what else Marge? Mm. You've got her a book. What about, does she like smellies? Not too sure about what she'd want. Hankies? Ladies hankies? Cos don't forget tomorrow you you can get the bulk cos you're getting that discount. hosiery? Erm think. Oh I want something for Maureen in Leatherhead. Hosiery reminds me. I usually give her a pair of winter tights for walking the dog. Yeah. Who's that? Maureen. Maureen . Extra large winter tights. So, shall we just put a question mark? Yes. Put something small? Mm. For Jackie I'll try to pick up a paperback book. Mm. Yeah. One. Lee I'll get him a bottle of something when I get back to Stowmarket. Mhm. And then there's erm You're not gonna buy all the kids this year are you?and all that lot. No way. We're not all meeting together so You'll be meeting them all No. No. Can't. Can't? I just haven't got the time, the energy or the money. Well the thing is you've gotta do the ones that you see in person haven't you? Exactly. Not Yeah. Oh I'm gonna get you a biscuit barrel. Brenda a biscuit barrel. Er what did I say for Lev? A bottle of something in Stowmarket. We've got And what what about Maureen's husband?? Oh, yes. I was going to say something for John. Erm John . He's passionately interested in, in his wild flower garden but I don't think I know enough about it to buy him anything about that. Er no. I don't usually give him anything. You don't? Just Maureen? No. No. I'll just stick with Maureen. Right. Er what about ? Sheila ? Big tall with long blond hair. split up. Oh! Shirley yes. Shirley . Er Do you keep in touch? We haven't actually in the last six months or so. I'll write to her. Erm put down What about a calendar very pretty er calendar would be nice. Yeah. Yes I was gonna say either a very pretty thank you or calender. Not a terribly expensive one but a calendar would do fine. Oh my spelling is atrocious Jean. Oh well. Don't not matter. Mm . Right, let me just get back to Marge is on her own. She hasn't got a partner. Ron you don't buy a partner. Jackie er Brenda. Shirley a calendar. You said hasn't got a partner. What can I get your Dave? What there's a handbook that he's after in the bookshop. Get that in bookshop then. Mm. Smiths. . Gotta go in Smiths Mm. Yeah. Erm now Libby, Jean are friends. Mm. Right. So what other, is there any other friends? What about ? I've given up my sewing. Er I, I was going in the evening you know, doing the tailoring class but of course my illnesses have stopped me doing all of that and made me realize I can't do it all. Er, I've got too much to do with my lodgers. Erm Well what about, don't you go to a morning coffee thing where you meet at someone's house? That's dropped by the wayside. That's dropped Right. Mm. Okay. So is there any other friends you go out with? Well there's Diane the hairdresser's wife whom I don't see a great deal of but she lives near. We'll give her a corn dolly. Hairdresser is she? Mm. Hairdresser's wife. They're quite nice those little corn dollies . They're lovely little Mm. And then what other friends ? Well I've got lots of acquaintances but I don't know that I necessarily want to put them on the erm . What about any close, like? Ah. Now what about my next-door neighbours? I was gonna say what about neighbours. Erm Bob and Glynis. I was saying, who's the one that had you over for the barbecue? It was them. Tin of biscuits. Mm. Who is it? Erm. Glynis and Bob. And I think I'd better get those in Stowmarket because I'm not gonna be able to carry all this lot up No. And they will be heavy. Mm. And they're, they're probably the ones you got Marie are too fancy. Oh yes they are. That, the family Just go into like Safeways or somewhere. I mean he is out of work and he cannot get a job. I tell you who's a good buy. I bought some. The one thing I have bought from a tin of biscuits. A tin of? biscuits. Oh yes. They're two pound thirty five Mm. for quite a biggish tin. Yes. Yes. That's the sort of thing. Yeah. Yeah. So that's Bob and Glynis, and who else? Neighbours. Tin of biscuits. Just Bob and Glynis or any other neighbours? No. Ooh. Richard . I've already given him his Christmas presents. I want something for his bicycle. Erm no I'm not gonna give Donna and Sally anything. What about any of your are you still ? I haven't been in touch with the 's for ages. I just think it's going to be kept down to a Christmas card. Okay. That's it. That'll do. If you don't want to I've, I've given him er a present already. Yeah? Bought him something for his bicycle. Special little wheel or something. What about the other man then, that comes? The, the total ass? The one, the the the needlework woman's son? That's who I was talking about, the dopey one. Oh no. No I'm not gonna bother to give him er a Christmas ? Mm? Do you still have him? No. I I said to her that I couldn't cope. I was not well enough. Mm. Er I mean if he were responsive and would work and would try things for himself but it, it's, it's like hacking at concrete with a knife. Mm. Terrible. Terribly hard work. So I said until I feel a lot better I'm not, not resuming. Alright. Erm just one thing. You don't have Brenda any more do you? No? No. Be a Christmas card. Erm what about your local hairdressers? Do you go in there? Mm. Be nice to give her something. Erm Is she a regular one? Do you have her regular? Oh yes I go to her constantly, I don't think I'll give erm how much are the, were the corn dollies? Two ninety nine. There are two of them. There's Beverley and Gail. Gail sometimes does my hair but she's a learner and I get her more cheaply. I think a corn dolly for Gail. Mm so that's corn dolly accounted for isn't it? That's both corn dollies. That's my lot. And for Beverley Who's she then? That's the main hairdresser, the one who usually does my hair. Beverley and Gail work together you see. Mm. Gail is her apprentice as it were. Why don't you give that one to Beverley? And just give something sma cos you're gonna . Have a tin of, have a pack of my chocolates and give them to Gail, and give them to that to Beverley. Good idea. Yeah? Yeah. Cos they're, I mean they're nice sort of wrapped up. Yes. Yes. Cos it's silly to make a thing out more than what you need. Mm. Mm. that's corn doll swiss chocolate. Cos I, I only bought these as extras anyway. So. Mm. Mm. Yes I know. Yeah. Ah yes I, I, I but I'm gonna get aren't I? Instead. Right so that's your hairdressers. That's about it isn't it? I think so. What about that other lodger ? Oh I hope he'll be gone by Christmas. I think he'll be, I think he'll be moving out probably at the end of the, I told him I wanted a week's notice. I, I asked him a couple of weeks or ten days back. I said oh by the way when are you leav intending to move out? And he said the they were pressing him for completion that very minute. You see nowadays the solicitors are falling over themselves to do the conveyancing. Whereas when you and I were buying houses it was oh it's a long process and it can't be hurried. Now they're just desperate. And I, he said something about, muttering something about before Christmas. I hope he is gone before Christmas. We won't put him down anyway. Who've you got for ? I can't be bothered. I really cannot be bothered. left. I tell you what I might do tomorrow. I might buy a couple more odds from Marks. You've got no odds left. We've used all your odds. Erm for instance if I feel I've got to give Philip something er a tin of sweets is acceptable to both to both sexes isn't it? Well what, what was that, what was the price of that red? This? No the red tin. Two fifty. No that'll do fine. In fact I'll give my neighbours who live opposite, I don't see a lot of them but they they are my opposite neighbours and of course the 's really I'm on good terms with I ought to give them I'll get them a tin of biscuits as well. I'll get them in Stowmarket. Mm?? Mm. . Tin of biscuits. Erm odds I'll get a a what are they? Crystallised You've got a tin so you'll know what they are in Marks Yeah. cos you got a tin for Marie. Crystallised fruit drops. Yeah. Crystallised fruit drops. That's right. Yes. Yes. Right. For Jean to get, let me just write I keep this as my, my scrapbook Mm. but I've kept it from all the years. Mm. So I've known what I've given people for like the year before. Oh I know what I haven't given you, your Christmas card. Oh. I couldn't resist buying this one. take your glasses off then . I don't know where to put them. Thank you . Ooh lovely big Christmas card. My very first. No my second. The first one was from Jenny . Oh! Ah! It's lovely. That's beautiful. Ah. How nice. Thank you very much. Did you read what I wrote? Yes I read what you've written. Thank you very much. That's lovely. Mm. Such a nice card. Mm. Beautiful card. A little home, a little house. Very nice. six ninety nine Ivy, now what did I get Ivy?sweets. Er that's that lot got that. Erm now Tracy put her down. Think I was gonna try, try and make her some . What did I say Lynn, Lynn and Ellie? Oh golly . Knickers and socks didn't I? Oh that's right. A box with socks. And I'm gonna get some smellies soap didn't I? Yes. Soap to go with just to put And you were going to put little animals soaps in a in a bag. Was that for the teacher? You were going to make one Lynn. one of those with, with some little animal soaps in I thought you said. Well what I might do is just put one soap in each cos it Yes. buy the biggish, I think they're thirty five pence from the Body, buy two or three. Mm. And make a couple of different fillings up Mm. and lay them around. Mm. Oh I've got Jean's present already. Pete I'm gonna get some cigars but I'm gonna get them through Kim. But she sells them to me for fifty pence a packet still. Three pound cigars,ones. Good ones. Mm. She sells them to me fifty pence a packet. How does she manage that? Cos Brian works for a cigar company. Oh. So he gets an allowance does he? Or does he pinch them? No he gets I think he gets about fifty boxes given to him and of course he doesn't smoke so he just Oh right. Right. he normally gives them gifts but he's got so many left over. And I think some people she charges about one fifty but me I teacher. No, no Laura. She wants something . He wants knitting. Harry does wants a knitting set. Boy of nine. Now Daniel, Scott and I'm not getting. Oh what did I say? I said I weren't gonna bother didn't I? You said you were going to spend about a pound fifty on each child. Yeah. Erm and what were you going to buy them that pound fifty? You were going to put a pound coin in? No. Just put a pound coin in the card. That's right. The card was forty nine p weren't it? Right. Put the pound coins in. Yeah. That's right. Oh. Will you put on my list Simon . That's the little boy who can't see very well. Oh that's great. I've got only one two three I've only got three main presents and four bits. I haven't got a lot more to get. And some of it I can only get in Stowmarket anyway because it's heavy. And I can go down to the supermarket to get the biscuits. Right. Well what I'll do is this is mine, Brenda to get so I'm giving you Oh could you could you put Simon on my list? To get. Erm erm put a note, ask Richard. I'll ask Richard what Simon would like for Christmas. Right. So I, I'll put in what we're gonna get. I'll give you both the lists now Mm. cos I, I've just crossed mine through. Mm. Erm now let's go through done the list so Jean to get tomorrow. To get tomorrow. Right so we've got to go to Smiths. Smiths, and in Smiths we're going to get Ruth and Matthew they've got tokens token. We're going to get a Smith's token rather than a book aren't we? Yes. Smith's tokens from Smiths. Dave you're gonna get a book. That's to do with canoeing? Yeah. That's in Smiths. Right John, wine. Stowmarket. Definitely. So I'm gonna write Stowmarket next to it. Mm. Mm. Stowmarket. Matthew and Ruth . Cara doll, Debenhams. Mm. Debs. Doll Er Ron, hankies. Er Debs innit? Mm. I won't get Ron white hankies because Coloured. Yeah I think you know he's such a er er he does, he he's very clean but he's not a good housewife. So nothing white will come out dazzling. Right. Erm so Ron, Terry slippers. Marks and Sparks. Are you gonna get them down here or up in Newmarket ? Oh down here. I'm gonna get everything I possibly can down here. Right so erm M and S we'll put in Yes I'd love to think that I can struggle back with the tree. But I'm not sure that I could. With what? I'm very tempted. By the time everything is packed into that bag that's going to be heavy but on the other hand I'm going to have taxis. On Waterloo on Sunday I'll be able to get a taxi very easily yeah. Erm if they can tie a a handle on to the tree If they're selling them in Guildford Marks. If they're selling those imitation trees, and if they've got that wonderful one that looks like a real tree if they can say to me yes, we can rope it up for you in such a way that it's got a handle on it. I could carry it back. Well it has. In the box it's got a handle. It's one of those plastic boxes. Oh well, there. Yeah. And what I'll do is, I'll not only pack my Christmas presents into that. I'll also pack everything that's in that little black little black bag. Everything I've brought with me. You won't get it all in that. Well I think that probably Neil's clothes will have to go back in a Marks and Spencers Right. one of those bags, don't you think? Mm. Well I think see cos you're gonna get, alright tomorrow they're all little things. They're tiny. Tiny things. Erm see how you pack it. See what you get tomorrow. I mean the tree's not desperate to get . You can get it if you've got If the worst comes to the worst I can do without that. I can er either buy one in Asda or somewhere or forget about it and have a fresh tree. But I've had fresh trees since I've been in in Stowmarket and I've, I've come to hate them. They're, you know you, you get the earth you, Richard usually goes and gets the earth for me. Drops half of it all over the carpet as he's bringing it in. Yes. Too much bloody mess . And have you ever put a tree a Christmas tree in a tub and packed earth round it and got the bloody thing to stand up straight? No. No. Not on your nelly! But that I mean where do you nearest M and S? Norwich is the best. Ipswich is the nearest. Norwich is the better bet because Ipswich is being redeveloped and only about a third of the space at the moment is being used for the, for shopping. I don't know whether they'll have managed by Christmas to get it all done. They were expanding. The thing to do perhaps tomorrow morning to phone Ipswich Marks to see if they've got them in stock. Good idea. Yeah. But I think you're gonna have enough to carry back I think so. without lugging that big box . I I don't think I could manage it. I can see fits being had by party. presents than worry about the tree at the moment. Mm. Cos you've gotta, I mean I love that tree. I fell in love with that I know you did dear. But you can't even leave it down here and pick it up later No. because it'll be too late. No. I, I want it for Neil and Paul and even for Well why don't you get him to, can't you go with, take Neil into Norwich? Mm. I can And get him to carry it. I can get, you see Mark will Mark will do anything at the moment cos he's quite interested in me. Well phone, if it comes to it phone Mark at Norwich and ask him to deliver one. Mm. Alright might cost you an extra fiver. Mm. But it's worth it cos you, you wouldn't get there in petrol and back would you? No. Right let's just go through the rest of this. Jean to get. Marks and Sparks slippers. Erm Marge, something small. Shall we put down Marks, Debs or Smiths? Oh I might look I'll look along the paperbacks for Marge. Put query paperback. Er Maureen winter tights. Debs? Mm. Actually, are we going in to Marks again tomorrow? Yeah. I think that Marks' winter tights will probably be better. Okay. Er Jackie? Smiths or bookshop? Er yes. Bookshop. I've put book bookshoe. Jackie. Mm. ? Stowmarket wine. Alcohol Mm. When's Neil going to see his er heavy metal thing? He's not going. He's not going now? No. And I had before I realized how tight Mike was going to be with you know having to look after Paul and all the rest of it I promised I'd take him to Snetterton market and he could have, he was going to buy some records. But er oh yes I might still do that. talk to him very seriously. Talk to myself very seriously. No but there, there aren't any there didn't seem to be any concerts erm happening within the vicinity. I mean they travel all over the world these people. And I, I suspect that they're on their way out because the way they leap and scream and bang and thump I should think that they , most of them have been on drugs. He has on, or had on his wall a poster with the itinerary of their, of their tour. This, this group that he's so fascinated by. And I keep on forgetting the name of the group. Right Sheila , calendar Smiths. Oh. What's the name of the group that he's so mad on. Megadeath is one. Right what about Well their itinerary was something like er January the first Cologne. January the second Dusseldorf. January the third Berlin. You know they were Yes. Punishing schedule of work. There are stupid people that I suppose they're making the money. Yeah aren't they? Right Bob and Glynis, tin of biscuits. The tin of biscuits. They're all Stowmarket? Yes. I couldn't contemplate hauling that lot back. Simon ask Richard. That's Stowmarket isn't it? Mm. Well you've got all you've got left, you've got my presents to get tomorrow. Mm. And that leaves you with just five in Stowmarket. Wine and some biscuits. That's not bad is it? No I mean they're going to be very easy to buy. And you've bought eighteen presents today. Oh my goodness! Eighteen people. I say! . That's amazing isn't it? So you had thirty four people this year to buy for. Yes. but I mean if you'd bought all the extras, last year you had about fifty. Yes. So tokens are small,, paperback will be small, calendar will be small. So they're not major presents No they're not. No. tomorrow. They're not weighty ones. Brenda could you pass me up my, my box of, of er coloured ribbons and things. I just want to love and admire it. . It's so Christmassy! . It's got gift tags hasn't it, as well as pretty. Ah. Incidentally I was glad that although I didn't feel one hundred percent I was glad that I wandered round Liberties. Because I went up to their fabric department and I want to after Christmas I'm going to wash all the covers on the er settees, you know er the dralon. And I want to make if I can a couple of deeper coloured cushions and if I can I want to make tie-backs for the curtains because everything in that room is so blooming pale. Mm. Well Liberties sell a fabric that they call poult, P O U L T for what was it? Two fifty. And they had acetate at four fifty. And they had the most marvellous colours. I think that they only intend them for linings. Oh that's what I wanna get. Some of that tomorrow. Well I will get some too. Put it down on my side as well. Because I'm not going to buy any more tree decorations this year. No. I'm . Either last year or the year before. Mm. Now shall we see what we can get in this bag? Yes please. Right. Oh it's got a little padlock. Yes. Isn't it lovely! Has it got a key though? No. No it's just a little neat pretty thing. Actually you have got a key. Oh how nice . I thought it was just a decoration. No. You've got two keys. Well I never. gonna love that. Now if anybody pinches it alright they can break it, but Mm. I'd leave the two big baskets will probably, I think all the smaller things in here. Mm. Do you? Yeah. stand up. That's it isn't it? What about the erm the baskets, the toiletries. What do you think to do with those? I think put them in case in the Marks and Sparks bag. Cos they're quite heavyish. They are aren't they? Yes. Pack them very tight in one bag. Mm. These are gonna be the most awkward things. I wondered if they would go in there. No. See. Mo. Just won't. Oh they do. Well that's very clever Brenda. No Do you want the hangers? Do you desperately need the hangers? No. Cos they're gonna be bulky. No. Hangers are a pain. Even if you had to after Christmas take it back they won't know. They don't worry about the hangers, no. You just say you don't have the hangers don't you? That's right. Yes. The hangers could in fact go, go in there because that looked to be rather a good hanger, frankly. Mm. No, that one's a nuisance. That one's a nuisance. That one's alright though. That one's fine. They're lovely They are beautiful. It's not too heavy then. And you've got room in there if you want Have a little hold oh yes I can manage that for short distances. I think perhaps that can be thrown out because otherwise it's going to scratch that that nice tin. I can take the tin of biscuits out if you feel it's too heavy. Oh we can try it tomorrow, thinking about it. Yes. No I can lift that. I mean I couldn't walk for any great distance with it but I'm going to have taxis. and get them to carry it. Yes. Yes. Yeah that's gonna scratch it. Yeah. That'll be easier for you anyway Yeah. so you've got a bit of padding there you can put Yes. Yes. Pack the biscuits along with your clothes. Inside and it won't That's right. It won't get scratched. It's a lovely thing. You've got two Yeah. I'm wondering whether the things from that will lie in the top of this. Well we'll see when, when we get the things tomorrow. They're all going to be small aren't we, aren't they? They're going to be All tiny things tomorrow. Yeah. Course you've got your tree as well. Oh the tree! That could go in with the er wrapping paper couldn't it? They to keep that separate. I suppose so. Yes. It hasn't got it's own tree shaped bag has it? A tall thin bag? No. No. Cos They were all big bags that we had? Mm. Yeah. That's fine then. I don't mind looking after it. Yes. Yes. So it stays upright then. No, none of them are heavy. No. Ooh. Well I spent today in Marks and Sparks or you spent. Seventy four pound was mine and a hundred and eighty five pound was yours. Yes. Yes. So you've got another seventy really. See there's a nice That's a beauty. That's better for your baskets. Oh yes. Cos they're a bit squashed in this one. Yes. What came in that, oh your bag. Yes! That's better. Yes. stuff out of that That's a dinky little bag. Yes. Isn't it nice. That can go in there. Yeah. I mean that's just little odd bits of underwear and such like. put it in there and then fold that bag flat. Yes. Well I tell you what Brenda, I don't use this bag very much. If you don't mind I'll leave it with you. Leave it here and then got it here for shopping here . That's right. Yeah. a hundred pound. Make no difference. different No. No. No. Because by the time, it it's like Peter. I mean the fact is he's got so much money. Erm I mean he he he's bought, I mean the presents he's bought to be honest I mean I think oh my god what a waste. Mm. I mean he's bought like bubble kits. Giant bub I know they were about twenty nine pound I saw. Mm. And I thought well, I suppose he's got such rich friends Mm. Mm. they'll like something like this. I mean stupid Mm. but I mean you don't think erm cos he said to me he said oh I suppose I'd better buy you a Christmas present and I said yeah buy me something that I'd use. He said what I said well if you're gonna me anything, buy me a tin of biscuits. Mm quite. He said tin of biscuits? I said I think that's a most acceptable present. It really is. Because you know it's stupid things like that I know that Bob and Glynis will be delighted to have some because he's been out of work. Alright, he invested the money that he received as a gratuity from British Telecom when he was made redundant. And he gets in about three thousand six hundred a year on that. It's a lot of money. I think they paid him out thirty thousand or something like that. He'd been with them for twenty seven years. God. He joined when he was seventeen or sixteen. Made redundant. He cannot get another job. We were saying that Ron in number four he was a builder. He had his own business, van, the whole lot he had staff working for him. And he hurt his back last year and the doctor said well you'll either be dead within six months. You've gotta give up the building work. He's only thirty odd thirty seven, thirty eight. Given it up and he said oh well got no kids you know they live in this house, got no kids. And they always have a holiday abroad and they go out a lot, good social life. They eat out once a week, you know. Mm. And, because she can't have children and er this was what, last June it all happened? He said oh alright, I'll do something you know, cement or milkman Mm. or something just casual, couple of hours. Couldn't get nothing. No. No. Absolutely nothing. And say he's round about the fortyish age and we spoke to him last week and I said you got a job yet? He said no and I'm getting worried now he said me, my wife works full time and we could cope on the money but he said now we don't go out. Mm. You know, once a fortnight. He said we're not getting the luxuries like we could when we were both working full time. Mm. Mm. He said we're surviving. Mm. Oh yes. Cos they've got a next to nothing mortgage. Yeah. Mm. But er Yeah it's like with me, I mean of course don't forget that I've got a good two hundred pounds to come on about the fifth of December from the British Legion's savings. Oh of course you have. I've been saving five pounds a week for practically the whole of the year. And that will be chucked into the building society so that I can, when I get my Marks and Spencers debt come through, I can pay a great wodge off. Off that. But I shall still have to draw on some capital Brenda, nevertheless. You will. I mean you have to Christmas time though don't you? Well erm I have thought now what shall I do after Christmas? Because you know I like January. I've achieved a Christmas. I've made everybody happy. That's right. And I thought that sewing machine is really going to get out to work. And I'm not going to buy any fabric. I'm going to make up the fabric I've got. And it's, I'm going to do things for the house like I want to make erm Chris has put back the rail over my windowsill. I don't whether you remember I had a bamboo pole. Mm. And I made a, a thing and it looked awful I know you said. and I took it down. But I bought some beautiful crimson bias binding from Laura Ashley don't laugh but I'm taking the valance of Paul's bed I remember you saying. because it's a white valance. And I'm going to have this white frill sp er erm roll, and I'm going to roll the fabric I'm going to leave all the pleating, not cut into that, but cut the valance platform and fold it over if you understand me and make it go over the the pole. That's a good idea. Erm so that I'll have oh plenty of gathers you see but the pole will be smooth. My mistake was to to spread something through that went into horrid, nasty gathers on the pole. Didn't look anything, just looked messy. So I thought have it smooth over the pole and then all frilly underneath and this lovely line of soft crimson. And I thought you know I mean when, when erm Philip goes and I'm in the en suite in, in the en suite bedroom. Everybody says it does pay you to have the house looking fresh. That room the paint to my eye has either faded or changed colour or something. Now I noticed this with in the sitting room this year I got John , friend of Nev's to repaint the walls because do you remember they were called soft peach? Yeah. And I looked at them and I thought, that isn't soft peach any more. That's a glaring pink. Mm. I suspect that Dulux emulsion paint changes colour. Oh yeah it does. Tell you what I've got, it's a marvellous thing. The decorators at Peter's works cos they, they erm tradesmen they've got a colour card. Ah yes I've got that. Have you this is the tradesmen's card. Which one is it? It's a Dulux but you can't get it from the shop. It's tradesmen. No that's right. Erm Anthony Anthony got me that. Got one, yeah? Marvellous aren't they Yeah. cos you got every single Which year is it? Now. This year. Oh I haven't got the up to date one. Let's have a quick gander through. Erm so I thought what have I got? I've actually got a great load still of gardenia and white mixed which is what was put on the walls in the sitting room. I thought I'll put that on the walls in the bedroom. I'm not going to bother to go out and buy new paint when I've got a damn great tub Mm. of this lovely soft pale cream. Erm I don't know whether I was with you when I bought er rolls of Borders. Borders. I've got a very pale grey. Remember that in Marks and Sparks a couple of months back they were selling borders off and I bought a beautiful aqua one. And they were fifty p each on a background I wonder if they're still doing them? No. They were just, it was just a one day I went round there shopping and they had, and I bought some beige ones for the kitchen. Mm. Erm and it cost me two quid I think for the four. Mm. And I mean I haven't put them up yet. I thought I'll wait to, I sort of really, like the bathroom I want to it's got the wallpaper starting to peel off. Tal speaking of wallpaper, I am going to paper the en suite. Er I only need two rolls. Yeah. Possibly even one. So I'm going to look in the, in the bin. And I shall make some more little cushions for the bedroom and I'm going to use this idea of terribly ordinary cotton Mm. there's nothing wonderful about the cotton, but the cushions look absolutely superb because there were just thin lines of the, you can tell it was when you looked at it quite cheap ribbon but just arranged in a beautiful square and then a little bit of lace. like those tissue boxes. Now I've got a friend of mine that makes them. Now that was seven ninety nine that you bought for Rosemary. Now that was Marks, they're nice ones. Now she gets them and she sells them for ten quid. I say. And they're not, I mean they're pretty but they're not that magnolia range in Marks is lovely. That's lovely yes. And but she sells them. Yeah. You know she does parties as well, but Yeah, yeah. she said she she's losing the profit at selling them at ten pounds. Yes. Mm. Because the lace, the time. She said tissue Do you remember when we tried to make fluffy dogs? Yeah. And we found we just were were wasting our time. Wasting our time . You're up against the factory conveyor belt system of sewing when you, one person does only ears and the other does bodies and That's right. Yes. Yes that is lovely. It's good isn't it? Yes. I think we ought to get some kip. I think so. I hate to but erm talk for tonight. I must. I wanna in a minute. No and we must. It's quarter past twelve. I don't like going up late, nor do you. Right But we'll have plenty of sleep. I mean I think five, six hour's sleep is absolutely enough. Oh yeah. I'll get Dave to set the alarm and then we can have breakfast before we sort of rush out. Otherwise I'll sleep through. Mm. Well that's partly what did me today. I was deter , you see I, I have to set a good example to Neil. And I was determined that everywhere although not absolutely superbly glittering, everywhere was going to be tidy before I left. So I went through every blessed room. Tidy tidy tidy. Throwing away rubbish you know what it is. Mm. Bitsy bitsy bitsy of this and that and the other. Came out without anything inside me and then had this ghastly experience of not, I was, I was banking on being able to get a hot cup of coffee on the train. No coffee. And then this wretched journey. Mm. And I got thoroughly upset. Oh you could tell right on the phone you were sort of all keyed up with it. Yeah. Do you need a drink of water or anything? No thanks dear. You're alright. You might hear Dave switch that off in the morning. Erm but he probably won't. old ferry coming over from erm Harwich to the Hook of Holland. And I, I used to sort of sit in er put sit myself in my little erm bunk you know? Yeah. And the, the swaying of the ship and I used to sleep like a log. Everybody else round me was being sick. Not me. . I didn't sleep very well at all. Up and down up and down all night. You have? Mm. Why? Don't know. I Excitement? I think, a lot of it, you know I was burning a bit so I think a lot of it was sort of it thinking about that blooming boiler. Yes. Yes. And then you know Dave I think drew he was, he was ever so, ever so restless. I don't know whether he was expecting the water to burst or what it was . Yeah I know. Ooh I know. Cos when I went to bed I mean, you know I tested it and it didn't seem too bad. No. No. It seemed sort of hot but er I mean that's the trouble at the moment because even if it's something minor thing, it seems so dramatic. Exactly. You know especially to me at the moment. Yes. I don't know why. The smallest thing I mean it seems such a Well I think there must, this must be a very common feeling for a lot of people that they feel that they're balanced on a knife edge. There's so much we've had to pay out so much erm you've had to pay out so much on, on more mortgage than you expected. Mm. Did you, saying that, did you see that programme on let me think oh dear . It was on repossession. One day in the week or the week before. It was on er channel four I think it was and it was all about these people that had been, you know encouraged to buy this house and then repossessed. Mm. Mm. And did you watch it? No I didn't see that one. Oh it was horrible. And it was how people you know didn't want to er and they wouldn't. And they were saying that you don't give, the local erm MP was saying you know people just give their kids up and walk away. Mhm yes. Mm. And, but it was awful you know. There was so many of them. It should not happen. I I mean I think it, somewhere somebody is being greedy. It shouldn't happen. And it seems to have happened because thirty years ago everybody like Jerry and me had a repayment mortgage which meant there were very few endowment mortgages. Mm? Now a repayment mortgage they will extend the term of the mortgage. Yeah but when we had a when we had And the endowment you can't extend it. Well I think they should make it so that you can extend it. Yeah but when they I just don't think I just don't think repossessions should happen. But repayment now is due as an endowment. Well they should do something about it Brenda. That's all I can say. There should be some certain fund for bailing out people who are in real, terrible difficulties. Because you see Yeah because people people are not being helped. It's like my Neil. Nobody was helping him. Nobody wants to know, do they? No they don't. Not with things sort of going on there's and now you think sort of it, it's time when people sort of would club together. Yes. But it was saying, er this, this programme was saying that that erm that they were buying a house. And it was telling you you know say they were, for argument's sake they was buying this house that was sort of up north and that. And they were buying this house and it was worth something like I don't know, they were, they'd got a twenty five grand mortgage. Mm. They hadn't got it it wasn't, I mean you know to us it was qu , a cheap mortgage but sort of up there it was probably, you know sort of Mm. Mm. a lot of money to him cos there's not the work and that. And they'd bought this mortgage and their repayment was something like about I dunno a hundred and eighty pound a month. Mm. And they said you know, and then all of a sudden it had sort of gone up six percent. Yes. That's right. And it was five hundred quid. Mm. And there was no way, you know at a hundred and eighty they'd struggled. Mm. Mm. And they thought, because most people were, were sort of us. We thought oh we'll go for it. Yes. Yes. It's gonna be a struggle for a year. But you go for it. Yeah of course. And you don't dream of it No. Nobody ever dreamed going up. Nobody ever dreamed of this. I mean they reckon it's gonna go back up now don't they? Yeah. Probably will. I, you see I think that instead of, instead of Lawson putting interest rates up to squeeze inflation out of the economy he should have stopped all credit. When Jerry and I were young if at the end of the month there was no money in the account the bank used to write you a filthy letter if you were two pounds overdrawn. And you had if it was no good you wanting something and waving a bit of plastic at it. There was no bit of plastic to wave then. There wasn't? Not a thing. If you wanted to borrow money from the bank to, to buy anything there were two ways of getting money. You could go to the bank and ask for a loan. And mostly you got a dusty answer because if you hadn't got shares to put down as collateral, you didn't get your loan. And the other way of doing it was to go on hire purchase. And when you wanted to buy something like a three piece suite, you went to somewhere like Bentalls and they took you into a little room, soon as you said to the man well I want to buy this on hire purchase and you went in to a little room and the man sat down and you filled in a long form. You told him what your husband earned. Erm what you, er what you could manage in the way of repayments what, er er you had to put one third of the full price down. Is that when you and Jerry were first married or Yes. Yeah you had to put one third of the full price. So if a three piece suite cost say a hundred and fifty pounds, you had to put fifty pounds down. And the, the hundred over over two years on, on interest. So people couldn't get in that state could they? You You, you could not get into debt Brenda. You were not allowed to. What you could afford you had. Exactly. Exactly. Now when did the I suppose the credit card they brought but as to what you say I mean the, these, these repossessions it's not the fact they can't afford the mortgage. It's the fact they can't afford all the the, the lifestyle to go with it, that's what Dave says. I mean the fact is you know there's blokes at work. Same mortgage as us and earning the same as Dave. I mean, you know they're in a dreadful state. Mm. I mean they spend their wages before Mm. And I think it's because they go out drinking and you know Mm. They're always buying things for the home. And the cars. I mean majority of blokes at Dave's firm have changed their cars three times. Yeah. Yeah. I know. People have come to expect that. Now you could do it in the nineteen seventies and er well yes I would say from nineteen sixty eight onwards with plastic card and revolv , what's called revolving credit. You could just run up the credit. I mean my, all my efforts after Christmas will be to get rid of these card debts. I promised Yeah but with you it's I mean, alright you don't want it over you, but you will clear it. Oh yes. But thing is there's a lot of people that, that that don't. No. Quite. Quite. I mean I know I told you this I mean the only reason I'm I'm running up these debts is that now I've got so little capital left, that I've got to keep the capital for sheer disasters like the boiler. Mm. And because you've got to pay that in cash. But there's people that you know are still now spending them at Christmas. It's like Jen, still spending them. You know he's still got like two holidays left on them. Mm. But then still runs it up for Christmas. Yeah. I mean I, I now will do no spending Yeah but you you didn't have thousands outstanding before you, you know by spending yours like yesterday. You didn't think to yourself oh god I owe five hundred pound on Marks and Sparks I'll top it up . No I had a fifty pound debt. That's it. And when the er and I've now got what? Er three hundred. Now that when, as soon as I get my cheque from the British Legion for two hundred, roughly. I won't wait for the card, for the bill to come in for the card. I shall send that off to Marks. I won't wait for them to send to me. Oh can you send it off? Yeah.. Yeah it's gonna be sort of six well it's longer now isn't it? Before you get the bills it's about eight weeks they said now. Seven I don't know. But they'll, they'll get their money tout suite . Cos you'll you probably won't get the bill in anyway till after, well after Christmas will you now? No. But they'll get their money. And then, when they send you the bill then will they just, you won't get so much interest on it? No they'll just say payment, thank you. And won't be quite so much. Mind you er and even easier, what annoys me they've put the interest rate down on the cards. Mm. Mm. Charging everybody Mm. Yeah. A twelve pound charge but putting their rates down on it. Mm. So it encourages people even more doesn't it? Course it does. Think, oh well when we normally was paying you know, I think Jenny's is something like Twenty three percent A P R. It was, it was two it was something like two percent a month. Jenny's is something like about eighty pound a month interest. She must have a colossal debt. Mm. And then I said, cos I said well how are you doing your Christmas shopping. Mm flexi friends. The majority of people I mean I, I mean my five hundred pound limit on Marks was what I asked for. I could have asked for far more. They ask you When I talked to my mum, she had about a grand on, on debts. Mm. Yeah. They ask you what you want. And then she went in one day and she knew she'd had a thousand and said can I extend it? Yeah. That's right. Yeah, course you can. Well do you know what my, did I tell you what my extension is, what happened with the Access. When I got into money difficulties in Woking. I simply phoned them and erm they put, they put it up so that I could buy things on Access that I could get, well I mean those were the days when I knew that you could sell a house like Yeah. just like that. I didn't know that I was going to have to sell my house for twenty five thousand less than all my neighbours were selling at. Mm. And I mean this is where you get caught. Mind you, you think if you'd stayed in there now. Well I don't know what would have happened to me. You'd have just, well I mean Couldn't have survived. No. They, they reckon they're going for about ninety five to a hundred and five down there. Oh no. Yeah! Cos I tell you who's not Poo next door to Poo. That was up for sale. That hasn't gone still. That's been on the market for oh ages. And the corner house is up for sale. Next to you on the, the house on the if you stand at your front door Mm. on the left. Oh Heath, yes. On Heathlands Drive. Yeah. On the corner that's for sale. The Yeah. Remember the ? Musical girl? Yeah. Yeah. And that is I think going for about ninety eight. That's ridiculous Brenda . Mm. Mm. I know that if I wanted to come back here this is the time that I could do so. Mm. Oh well it's a buyer's market isn't it? If you haven't got have mortgages and that. I'm waiting until, I'm not thinking about the prices of anywhere until I've sold. Because And then you'll you'll get more value by selling yours up there, than you would down here. Mm. Yes. Yes. Much more because Well. Houses are selling there. Very very slowly. But you do see the moving vans on the go. Yeah. I mean they're they're talk , you was talking about a good year on the market round here. Well I put mine on the market about ten week's ago. I haven't had a look, I haven't had a nibble yet. No. No it will be interesting, it will be interesting to see After Christmas it will. Yes. Interesting to see exactly where the prices settle down. Where was it they, oh that was it erm this repossession programme, they also had a house auction. And they had flats in London and there was like sort of guys like Peter there. And they interviewed them afterwards. And one guy had bought three. He'd bought two flats in London Mm. and they rated at with the high, when the house boom was on Mm. they were going for about a hundred thousand. Mm. He picked two flats up there for forty five thousand. You can, in Ipswich erm Paul was looking at the, at the property you know because he'd like to meet a girl and the two of them, he'd like to buy and he'd like to meet some girl who's already got perhaps er either a council flat or something. He said that he and Karen could have, he said at the present prices he and this Karen that he's, that left him er they, they could have had erm a place together because some one bedroom flats, two bedroom flats around are going at thirty five thousand, thirty one. Prices like that up in the Ipswich area. Mm. But this was for two flats. Mm. And th it was like there was this couple and they were like I dunno about sixty, sixty five the pair of them. And they had no mortgage and they had a a little bungalow and everything. And erm th they went to an auction and she was saying how interesting it was. And she could have a like four bedroom house for fifty five thousand. Mm. Mm. Mm. You know. I mean they, and they were in good areas. Yeah. But what it was, they were like it was like G A N do them er Man and Co And they had sort of like a job like Dave's and a lot of them what they've done is they've bought in this area, I mean probably most areas they've bought the repossessed they've got about eight or nine houses they're either renting them out or they're leaving them empty. The majority of them are empty round here. Mm. And then they'll just hang on to them Mm. for about five or six years till the house goes up and then. Mm. Mm. They, the building societies are worried about their repossessed houses. They thought that it was going to be all easy. I read this in the Telegraph. Mm. They thought oh, easy we're going to Sell them at parcel them out amongst the estate agents. And the estate agents don't want to know. Because people don't want to buy a repossessed house. For one thing they think it's unlucky. And the second thing is that repossessed houses very very quickly begin to look dirty and battered. Mm. And I mean I remember myself when I was a young girl that you used to walk along a road and you'd see houses that were going to rack and ruin. And you see it's the central heating and the women opening and shutting doors and running round and keep But they don't It's people who keep the houses going. But there was a house on this repossession and it was sort of like just a sort of young couple and they'd bought this house and it was like a two bedroom house and they'd done up beautiful. Ah. Really nice. Well they just fell behind you know I mean Yeah. they obviously I mean, quite an expensive sort of social life and everything. Yeah. Whatever. And they just couldn't, he lost his job which is the same old story and er anyway they went back to visit and they kee they go back every two or three weeks to visit this house. They've got a ki , no they've got kids. They had got three kiddies that's right, cos the council housed them. And they were in this grotty council house now and they go back and they said and you saw them going back and saying look at the state of the garden. Yes. Look at the state of the, the woodwork looks tatty and That's right. we spent all these years on this and Yes, yes. all the mail and junk letters all through the door and everything looked tatty. Mm. Mm. Mm. Mm. And they said you know th there should have been a way round it where they kept this couple in there. There should. There should. It's now been empty six months. Even if it's even if people had sold their houses to the local council . You see in in, on the continent they do not build council ghettos. Li you know, like you lived in. Where you walk in and think oh these must be council houses as you're driving through. Mm. You, you find a house to rent that seems right for your about the price, perhaps a bit high but about right for your level of income. And you go to the local housing agency er the, the council housing agency, and you get a grant to help you with your rent. So that there aren't special council houses. An any house could be a council house. Mm. And it means that I don't think the council can afford to do it now can they? No. They can't but they, it should, it should have been possible for the councils to have I don't know it, it it seems I, I put it down, I remember walking up and down on the beach with John about eight weeks ago was it? He came to see me, it was before I had this illness er these two illnesses. Or was it after the diarrhoea but before the two lovely colds? And we were walking up and down on the beach at Aldeburgh and the most interesting part of our conversation was that we were saying we both started out as not conservatives, I've never voted conservative in my life, but we started out as very loyal people. British justice was marvellous. British parliament was wonderful. The queen is great. And John said I now don't believe in anything. I mean you're talking, you're talking about old middle class rather staid people. Mm. And, you should be taping this . You are! Don't mean any disloyalty. Don't take me to the tower. Erm but erm he was saying he now sees the weaknesses in and how, how pathetic are governments are. Mm. Well they reckon now I mean I mean the poll tax Brenda! The poll tax! But they make me die because you, you you're a day, I mean we got this sort of letter the bailiffs were coming in because we were a day late. A day late Ridiculous. on it. And I said there's people out there that don't even pay it! You know and I mean cos Dave totally refuses on on the poll tax to have a standing order or direct debit. I have to Brenda. I have no option. Yeah. Well he just totally sort of because I think he knows I, I was so many people that don't pay it. Well it makes me very bitter because the , this is the sort of thing that John and I we were going over one thing after the other. We we were brought up to believe that if you didn't do the right thing you would be punished. Mm. And people are getting away with it. But what I can't understand, I mean majority of people I mean erm you've gotta pay the debt in the end whatever. Course you have. Why keep putting it off? People put it off and that is where they get in the trouble. Well I don't know that it's that. I think that people who are living in a fixed abode are paying in the end. They're being taken to court and made to pay. But it's people like my lodger. Yeah but they were saying now, it's like our, in the like local paper the poll tax is gonna prob , might be even go up double because of the non-payers. Yes. Because of not That makes me very angry. not having to take them all, I mean having to take them to court. And they said, just said in the end again there was er an article or something and it was saying that you know that er did did you eventually get the money? And they said no they had to write it off. Mm. They never ever did pay it. Well they are spending a fortune on hounding Paul. They don't somebody Cos he's at no fixed address is he? Well he, he left he was with Karen he came to me he left me and went down to Gloucester he dithered about running up and down the road between Gloucester and here er Stowmarket. Stowmarket. Erm not knowing where he was going to, to park his bottom. And eventually, well I had a, I had a questionnaire letters were coming to him which I sent back because I, Paul had never told me where he lived in Gloucester. Mm. And I they were addressed to him and they were from the council and I simply said, er wrote on the outside erm no longer here, address not known. Which was true. And then they sent me a questionnaire saying they understood that he'd he'd given my address, and was he res , was he still resident? And I said no. Did I know his address? I said no. Eventually an expensive chap, you're talking fifteen thousand a year, an expensive chap comes to interview me. He said I thought I'd catch you out. Didn't think you'd be up. Oh indeed. Trying to get rid of his second run so that he can get home by eleven. Oh yes. Yes. Erm so he can go back on this late. Because he's been up, now he's used to it his body clock's telling him to get up. I mean that's what this morning happened. Yes. Yes. Quarter to one he said god is it time to get up Bren? Ah! I said no. Course he's been on it for six weeks. Yes, quite. Hates the blooming hours but Quite. course now they're putting them on at half past four you, your body clock's well out. Yeah, yeah. They said that, he's just phoned the firm. He's up in tut oh god where is it? It's up er Landsford Park Mm. wherever that is. London I think. And he said that he'd phoned them and said could they change it and he'd finish at eleven then he can still start tomorrow night again at quarter to one . Mm. Mm. Mm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And he said if they can get someone else for the run they will. Yeah. Mm. Mm. But er mm what else was we saying? Well we were talking about the general lack of faith in governments you was telling me about a suit. This guy fifteen grand turned up for Paul. Oh yeah, yeah. Suit comes along and sits there sipping coffee. Takes about three quarters of an hour. I, I don't say that it was like being grilled by the K G B he was most polite and courteous. But he was going to find out where Paul was. He was going to find out. How did he get your address then? Mm? How did he get your address? Well When he worked in Safeways or something? Yes er somehow they, they'd, they'd got it, or was it or did I have to fill in a a census form just at the time when Paul was with me? When he happened to be with me. Right, yeah. They knew anyway. They knew that he'd been here. Er and I mean Paul wasn't trying to dodge anything. No. Well that's what they say if there's, even people that come over here for a holiday for three months have to pay it don't they? Yes. Sort of twice. So er and god knows what it's costing them to collect. Did Neil have to pay it? Oh yes. Not, not the full amount. Mm. He pays the small amount and in fact I keep on meaning at the back of my brain to get hold of him and say has he been paying it. Cos when, when he was down at Andy's Aerials I think he used to go on foot to the post office every week. When he got his giro I think he used to pay then and there. It's only about a pound eighty a week or something for him. Mm. He was paying it and I must make sure that he is paying it. Yeah you'd better check it cos if, those one er pound eighty adds up don't they? Oh yes if it, it will be moi who has to foot the bill. There's no question on that one. No. No what about erm your other friends. What, what are they gonna do? The ones that have got their, Shirley and Terry that have got their house on the market? They're not sure whether they're going to sell because er Can they afford to stay? Marginally, now that Shirley has got a job. That So they just sort of put it on the market to see if it would sell? Well at the time they put it on the market we, we all three thought that it would be a good idea if, if both families sold up and moved into something smaller and perhaps moved near to each other each other. in Stowmarket. But now I, I just don't think that's going to happen. I, I don't, I honestly Brenda I don't know whether I'm going to come back down here. Whether I'm going to move to Norwich. Whether I'm going to stay in Stowmarket. So to be truthful Brenda, I'm happier not thinking about it. You've just gotta what mood, the mood sort of takes you. Exactly. Er at the moment I'm, I mean I'm even thinking of, of redecorating my bedroom. Dave even came up with an idea we was talking about the other day. And he said what, why doesn't Jean rent? Put your money in the capital, rent and live on the capital. Let the interest rent. Well I have thought about that vaguely Brenda. It'll all depend on what the situation is when I sell. He said that cos then, you know he said she she would have no upkeep of the house. Mm. That's right. That's right. But I, I don't know whether Dave has, I mean you see my friend Pam whose husband Steve is an airline pilot she knows quite a bit about this because Steve was an illegitimate child in London, in West Ham. His mother was an office cleaner and she conceived Steve by a married man. Erm a poor, working class man. No question of a divorce and marriage, she just had to get on with it. She was able to keep Steve because where she lived within the er there was a little coronet of little tatty houses that have since been pulled down and she was related to fifteen in fifteen out of the twenty two houses she had a relative. Mm. So she could always dump the baby on somebody. Mm. She'd got built-in babysitting facilities. And Steve knows a lot about being poor. And Pam said that Steve said to her that when he was at West Ham grammar school, boys grammar school everybody knew that the people who were best off were the council house people. Mm. If you were in private accommodation you were noth , you were nothing like so well off. You see I have lived in private rented accommodation with my mother in the late nineteen thirties. I'll just open these doors cos it'll be too cold to go out there once we go out. so cold with the glass Mm. and the trouble is if you don't have the here Yes . to circulate and And the trouble is that the, the, the English landlord has a name for being greedy. And it, it wasn't very nice Brenda because landlords are entitled to inspect where you live. Or they were. Yeah but you wouldn't b I mean like Dave said because er Because it wasn't very comfortable. You can't do exactly what you want in, in a rented place. You can't go putting up shelves and things Yeah but in searching I mean Sorry? You can't go putting up shelves. If you put shelves on the wall in a rented house those those shelves immediately belong to the landlord. Mm. That was the law then. It may not be so now. No I was gonna say yeah because I know Cheryl and Andy they, they had er erm th they rented a four bedroom detached house. And they even actually decorated. The landlord said to him you know she, she she sort of took a lease out for three years on it. Yes. But until recently there hasn't been a lot of rented accommodation. And landlords have probably been quite pleased to get a decent tenant. When my Mary-Ann had her rented rooms in Herne Hill they had the top floor of a of a three floor house. And their landlord who was Polish was ever so delighted with them. And he said, you know he talked to them and he said you can do whatever you like because Mary-Ann and Mitch were superior people. They were going to keep the place clean. They were going to keep it warm. They weren't going to, to have wild parties. Mm. But, but her place she had erm it was unfurnished erm but it was fantastic. Dave has got a point. And the thought has crossed my mind. And thank him very much for his idea and I will He makes me laugh cos he often says some , when I, it's when I've spoken to you on the phone Yeah. and I'll come back and he'll say has Jean thought about renting Bren? I said she don't wanna rent and he said why? He said if she then sold her house he said put the capital he said alright he said she with not buying a you know, another house now you know the fact is he said alright if she got one in her area or wherever. He said then she can put her capital he says and the interest on the capital Mm. that can pay the rent. Mm. But you see And I said yeah but then she's got no house to lead to a Mm. And you're at the mercy of the landlord putting the rent up Brenda. I mean I know that people have been hit by the mortgage rise and of course in my lifetime I've never known anything like this. Nobody has. Well like I mean I said to him I don't think, you know I mean it was just ideas I think he said I'm not saying do it. Yes. And I'm glad of people's ideas because But I said I don't think it's a good idea. And and I said he's got, you know she'd have nothing to leave. And he said yeah but both her children are Well my children are not worried about that. That's what he said. He said they're both you know No they're not. They're not. he said he said not knowing her children he said but knowing what he sort of picked up about your kids Mm. Mm. Mm. he said. You know to them he said it wouldn't be matter if there was nothing. No it wouldn't. Because they're both sort of comfortable and Very. you know and Very. their more concerned Jean's getting on with her life herself now Yes. Yes. Yes. than worrying about her you know sort of on, on the doorstep saying oh you've got to look after me. Here's the money. Quite. Quite. Look after me. They don't want that. They do not, no You know they don't want it. Erm different if you was really ill. Oh yes. But I mean, you know as it stands I mean you wouldn't want it and they wouldn't want it. Mm. No. No. They, they're quite happy you letting them get on with their life. Yes. Yes. Erm but then you haven't got the security of renting I don't think. Like you say you're at the mercy. Mm. I mean the fact you can do things and, alright you haven't got the upkeep if repairs need doing but I think that keeps you going. You've got your house. Yes it does. It it gives me an interest you know? I, I agree you don't need that great big house. No I don't. I'd be glad to get rid of the great ox but I can't so there's an end of it. And Yeah but eventually you will. I mean It will s , it will sell . you leave it on the market and I mean. I mean it's not as though I've bought a house which has got anything wrong with it. It's not on top of a nuclear plant, it it's not next door to a pub. It it hasn't got Oh it's a very sellable house in the right It's a very sellable house yes. but I mean, it's just ridiculous at the moment. Because you know you would think near Lacydere the houses are sellable. But I mean they're not. No. No. You know and in this area, that's what the guy was saying houses over a hundred thousand are not selling. No. We're both Ninety five. Yeah. But people want more the sixty seventy thousand. Yeah. Yeah. There's no way. You know I mean, you know people have got these beautiful big houses like Lacydere Well this is worth two hundred you know hundred and eighty five it's gotta be. say no. A house a house is only worth er what people will give for it. I read many years ago that houses are part of the really the last true free market Well where a willing buyer meets a willing seller. It's on a house is only worth what somebody will give. But there was an , it's it's like Sylvie was telling me that, you know who works for the mortgage she was saying, it was erm for an incident there was a house, you know The Grove, those great big Victorian houses? Mm. Now I don't know what they were worth and she was saying they must have been worth quite a bit cos they're big detached solid houses aren't they? The Grove is a mixture. Some are semi's. Yeah well this one was one of those big, four storeys. I mean enormous it might have even been fi but it, it had bedrooms and bathrooms and Mm. and it had a big basement and everything on it. And that she said was repossessed and it went for seventy five thousand. And then she said on the, she said I looked at houses like this she said Mm. and they were about a hundred and twenty five Mm. in a state. Yeah. Yeah. I could I could buy at the moment In Guildford I mean you can buy houses at Guildford at sixty fifty five, from fifty five to seventy five. And there was no way you could have done that three years ago. No. Erm erm I'm keeping, I'm keeping my mind flexible. The first the first firm offer I get now and let's put it like this. I've put the, the estate agent has put a number on the house. As far as he and I are concerned it's just a number. And that is a hundred and two. Mm. If somebody comes along and offers me ninety I shall say well what about ninety two? And they might say alright. Because people are being encouraged to offer you silly prices. That's right. But I shall say what about, I shall say to the estate agent how determined are these people to move? What's the man's situation? Has he got to move because of his job or Mm. whatever? Having got a. But you can't, you can't say well I'm gonna go there and I'm gonna go there. You've got to You can't er you can't. I I must say Brenda, all this knocks years off my age. Because it's so funny. I'm old, I know I'm old and I can't do all the things that I used to be able to do. But by golly I'm living as though I were a young woman. All the erm imponderables, I mean when you're young you don't know quite where you're going to be or what you're going to do. Mm. No. And I've got this with Neil. The moment I get er over Christmas, I'm going to be finding out where are the training courses. That's it. Cos people, I mean now I mean you can't sort of even think about that till mid January or later. Because thing is Mm. really between now and sort of Christmas everybody's interested in Christmas. Of course they are. They've got to be. There's nothing else going on. They've got no option poor devils. That's right. There's just nothing, nothing else I'm gonna get a bath otherwise we'll sit here chatting all morning. And How strange we'll be, we've gotta be out by half past nine. Yes. It's fresh out there. It's lovely isn't it? Oh isn't this nice. Oh I do like this. Oh I like those flowers. Where's that? Here. Oh it was bought it from the Christmas, two ninety nine from . Oh Two ninety nine. Yeah. still around. Keeping my eyes open for that sort of thing. Well what about this then? You haven't seen this. Ah! Where did you get that from? Ikea. I didn't get it. Me auntie got it up there and when she got up there they were selling them for nineteen pounds. Nineteen pounds! And I said it was just what I wanted. I'd love to go to Ikea. I've got, oh. I'll get that catalogue. Mm. I'll give it to you now. Mm. When I've got dressed and tidied up I'll have a look at it. Right. I'll go and have a bath then. Because I haven't it's,y you're going to put that away for me aren't you? That black bag? Yeah put it in that bag. That's a good idea . On the top. You've got your other bits and pieces in there. Otherwise you'll forget it. Well I won't forget it tonight because, no I won't be wearing it will I, here? I shall wear it at Marge's. No you're at Marge's. Yes. Right so we'll take the voucher I like that outfit Brenda. Yeah but look how it fitted me when I bought it. Look at it. Yeah, quite. Yeah. I live in it. You can tell by the trousers. They really get sort of It's a lovely colour. I was gonna say, look at the socks. Aren't they dreadful. Ah, no. Where's is erm where's my handbag? No. It's not there. Here it is Brenda. No it's here. Oh. Oh I thought that was it That's yours. that's mine, yeah tee hee.. Did I put the list oh yeah, things to get okay Right, Jean presents for. That's what you've got. Do you want to take what you've got just in case you think Mm. I was gonna say ooh have I bought so and so. Could change that. Yeah. Yeah. Or change it. Mm. So I suppose what you do with Debs is er tell them you want the whole discount and I suppose they give you a card for each floor cos you can't walk around with it each floor can you? No I er we, we'll have to start by asking as you say. Find out what the system is. Yes. If you get, like you did at John Lewis you get a card That's right. That'd be better. Yes. We could then leave it and say we'll pick it up in an hour or so Yes. Yes. then go and do Marks and Smiths Yes. and drive the car round. Mm. Mm. Mm. Good idea. Brekkypoos still got ten more I'll have to be careful this doesn't oh it's hot in here Jean isn't it? Yes isn't it? What's this one? That's er that's . Mind you I don't want that too awkward. What did I do with my glasses Brenda? I had them in my hand a moment ago. Oh there they are. Oh look at the marks on this carpet. Atrocious. We're pulling this carpet up after Christmas. Aha. We're going back to the woodblock flooring. How nice. Oh I love it Brenda. Well I mean we've, those biscuits are stale now see. You know the biscuit tin? Mm. Mm. Yeah. Quite. You end up throwing them out . I don't like to throw them away without asking you. No. But I I wouldn't leave them No. I'm going to have a little quick look at Ikea. Oh oh. Course you can. The decorator that are in at Peter's at the moment erm they do everything. They're fantastic. And he was saying he said oh you've been good you've been feeding us with cups of teas. They charge seventy pound a day per person and he said oh we'll charge you next to nothing. He said in fact we'll come down and he said, cos the er it's cracked round the outside. He said and we'll take it up and repair it for you. He said we might sort of say to you right we want fifty quid. Mm. Mm. But he said we won't charge you the daily rate, we'll just charge you for the job. No. No. No. Yeah. Lovely. And he said if it's that bad we'll strip it for you. Oh good. And re-, sort of d do it. Re-, re-sand yeah. You'll love it. You'll love it. Well it's all in the hall and Dave said the kids are older now. We're fed up with carpets and stain. Yes. Yes. I mean this carpet's three years old. I mean it's I know. I know. it's even going here now. Mm. And you keep washing it. Yeah. Oh And it just doesn't does it? No. Does nothing happens. Yeah. So two there. I give you your lipstick didn't I? Mm. Yeah. Why have we got so many cushions? I said well don't worry, we're gonna have more. I said they even fight then, there's not enough. Yeah. I know. Ah I wish I could lift my carpet up. I hate it. But I must say the carpet looks better in the sitting room since Look at this lovely stuff Dave doesn't like it we took the colour down. but I love it. That's a normal skirting. Mm. This is what the decorators Oh yes. That's what I've got. Yeah it's lovely. Yes. But Dave don't like it and he said the room's too small. And Peter's had that and he's had dado, and the dado bars! Ah! They look so nice. What a lot of people are doing is they're not putting up rails but they're putting up a erm a border halfway up aren't they, or just not quite halfway up the wall. Have you seen that? Yeah. And perhaps with a different wallpaper below and above. Below and above . That's right. Yes. Right. Let's just sort this out. That's not very elegant, the milk on but never mind. I don't think that elegance is the main thing in my mind at the moment. Oh it's really cold out there. We need it. Take your book out there Jean. Yes I shall. Carla. Breakfast . We'll have eaten it all by the time you get in here. I've put the kettle on and then we'll have another cup of tea in a minute. Oh it's nice to get cool isn't it? Isn't it? Yes. These were the things. I don't know if you've tried them. Oh. No I haven't. And then with my tongue the way it is. They're the only ones that I can have. they've got. Try one. Mm. And then they've got like iron and Nice. It's got recommend , it's got the recommended daily amount of vitamins in it. Oh. And the recommended daily amount of iron in it. Mm. That's what I mean with that Jean you probably won't need vitamins . No you see I don't think normally people do. But they do say as you grow older yes. Mm. Cos your body isn't so efficient at processing the food you take in. No but I might, I won't No but keep it up for ever more. But I thought I might have a a course of it. A month's vitamins perhaps. Just to top, make sure I'm topped up. But this is a good idea. What's that? These, these flakes. Yeah because there's a lot, I mean cereals have got a lot of vitamins and iron in ain't they? Well they're they're made that way aren't they? Mm. They put them in. Ain't it funny this time of year, the garden always looks bare and scruffy and Mm. Mm. Got all cuttings in the bowls down there I took. I don't know if, I mean one's not surviving, I don't know if the others are gonna survive. Mm. At people's houses I've taken cuttings of and Mm. Mm. Cos Jenny is marvellous she, I mean next door she er she very rarely buys. She takes cuttings from everything she's got and Does she? Mm and grows sort of everything in the garden. Mm. So I said wouldn't some lights look nice in here? Mm. Christmas lights. Mm. They would. Oh what else did Jenny get me? Oh she got me this from Ikea. Mm. One twenty five. Oh no! And I said to them they're but they're quite, quite expensive, the cats. Erm these are Ikea. They were erm what'd she say they were? Two twenty five. She said she just bought me a mixture of things she thought I would like. Mm. Mm. Mm. Mm. And she said if you don't want them you know I'll have them. Mm. Mm. Nice. But that I thought was really good for three pound. Mm. Marvellous. I've got the shade round the wrong way. I said to Dave now I wonder how we ever lived without this. I know. I know. Cos it's such er a light room. Mm. The only thing is with that radiator it still, it does get very cold in here. Because of all the glass. Mm. Now what double glazing have you got? Is any of it double glazed? All of it. All of it? Mm. Mm. So why why does it go down to very cold? Because we shut the doors. Ah. We don't let any air sort of circulate. And you haven't got a radiator in here of course? Yeah! Have you? I suppose it's too small Double one. That let's off more power than one of mine in the lounge. Mm. That's a double one. Mm. And yet you get cold? Mm. Mm. Mind you I mean Dave and I, he never says it's cold out here. He said your, it's you that's always cold. Cos I obviously feel the cold. Mm. Christmas cards. Mm? It's a Christmas card. Mm. You look nice. Yes. Who's that from your society? They always remember don't they? No it's . And if they're young Yeah super . Oh that's nice. Oh great. Isn't that lovely? Isn't that lovely? Mm. Got a . Mm. Erm dot to dot. Who are they? What are they? Penguins. Oh. You can cut them out. Mm. you got ten and you can cut them out then. Oh. Mm. Look, lots of love from Alleycat and Digger. There are lots of games on that aren't there? And did I see a er a game where you join things? Listen to this. Alleycat and Digger were looking up at the stars in the sky. Let's make a wish said Alleycat. And they both wished a happy new year to all of the club members . Look. Mm. What nice Ah. Oh look at the penguin! Mm. Spot the difference. Which balloon. Dot to dot puzzle. wheee What are all those then? Discount vou vouchers. Chessington Thorpe Park museums. Oh that's good. Oh that's good. That goes with that. That goes with that. That goes with that. That goes with that. That goes with that. Mm. And then you just er got a little Mm. Mm. It's good ideas isn't it? Oh yes. That's what I want for Neil. Well I did want it. At a time when he was lounging about in bed most of the time I would have loved a bed tray but I not think, I don't think I'm going to bother with one now. For one thing he's gone off breakfast. And I've gone off making it in the morning. But that's an ideal thing that. Mm. Only nine fifty. What Ikea? Oh that's what we were gonna look at today, trays. Yes. Yes. Cos you want, oh no you've got some. No I mustn't, I mustn't buy any anyway. Still going to Guildford, why don't you go to Ikea? Oh no dear, no. Oh no cos cos you can't get shop , Christmas shopping there. Brenda. I have got in my diary that I'm coming down to you on the twenty third of December? Is that right? You well you asked us said you could break the journey. Is that so? Mm. Cos you said you're going to your sisters erm your sons on the twenty fourth. And you said cos it'll be so busy could you stop over, you wasn't coming down to me till sort of like after threeish. Right. Is that okay with you? Yeah. Fine, fine. Right. Right. And then you've only got this travel Mm. That's right. Yeah it won't be quite so I hope it won't be quite so bad on the M twenty five on the twenty third. I know but the twenty fourth if you came down cos you Ooh Well because everybody finishes around All the last minute merchants will be on. Mm. Mm. Sorry. I'll make some tea. Mm. You'll have to keep talking Carla. Ha. Oh yes. I'm trying to find presents. What presents? The one on the card. Yeah presents you've got to find in there. Erm oh I need the milk Oh. Oh that's a good one to do? What's that love? Look. which balloon has the mouse let go off and you have to follow them. Oh yes. There it is. Yeah. Yeah. Mm. Ooh ah! Messy pup down me trousers. Oh. Thank you darling. Parties. Ah. glasses out there Jean? I've got them here dear. Mum can you bring me a pen in? What you doing? I was just taking these out to go and get some tissue for my nose I've Oh. Alright then. got sniffles. Mum. Can I have a pen? A pen? What, the one out your pencil case? Yeah any one. early your brother. Dunno. I dunno. Well we hope so cos we wanna get off get off pretty early me and Jean. . I can't get over how this bedroom looks. Mm. Have you seen them? Yeah. Like something in a fairy tale. Oh that got from Ikea. The mirrors. And it was eight pound for the whole pack and all the spacers. And they're ideal in kids room we're gonna, we got, if we can get up after Christmas get them for Lee Yes. Mm. because she wanted a mirror in her bedroom. Well we couldn't get one under twenty five quid. No. That's right. And I said to Dave put that on the wall Mm. I said because then there it is the four you can see her standing on it. Yes. Yes. Yes. She can still, she can see her whole body in it. Yes. Yes. I know what this is, this is Rudolph. I could have done with that on the wall in, on my landing. Upstairs. yes. As you go up. Because that is And people can is eight pound for four packs and all the spacers and everything. Mm. Erm so if you had, a lot of people had like two packs Mm. Mm. Mm. so they sort of had it floor to ceiling. Mm. Mm. Oh look isn't that a lovely one? Yes. With her trolls Yes. But don't the house look lovely Mm. Mm. when you take pictures. Well your house does look lovely. Erm you see you're used to it. You don't see it. See that looks effective. Yeah. Very. I took it on the lamp . Yeah. Oh no you were taking all these Carla weren't you? Mm. You did them very well. That was of Lee's hair wasn't it? Mm. Mm. He was so engrossed studying. Mm. That looks like a moustache! Mm. I mean his bedroom looks enormous. Yes. She is a character. Look at her face. Yes. These are marvellous this company because Mm. for three ninety nine you get three sets of prints. Erm plus a free film. Mm. Cos I was gonna to take it into Boots and they wanted five ninety nine just to have them developed . Oh yes. Oh yes. mm. You've got a bone stuck in your throat. I don't usually cough. This is quite a novelty for me. I think it was cos it was so hot in there Jean to be honest. Mm. Mm. I was starting to feel quite whoow. Mm. And then it's cool in here. It's Yeah. it's the right temperature in here now. It just got so hot in there. Right. Yes. But I suppose sitting there you just didn't realize. No. No. You're sleeping at er Leanne's tonight Carla. I know. Did you see Jenny yesterday? Mm. What'd she say? She's got a new car. Another one. What's she got now? White one. I know. She was having so much trouble with that Volvo. Paid twenty one grand they have, just have. For a new Volvo. Mm. Mm. I mean ridiculous innit? Well. And it's been in and out. In and out. Mm. And they keep giving her a courtesy car so I should think so after spending twenty one grand ! mm mm mm mm mm mm Mm I should think it would. What did she, when did she say she ? Dunno. Dad was talking to her. Oh was he? You wanna ask dad. I was doing my canoe then. Was you good for dad? Don't need to slop do you? Schlurp. Mm. Rather a noticeable slurp. Mm. I know they're yum. Mm. Did you get all your homework done? That is my homework. The canoe. That's good innit? Oh yes. Mm. Mm. Mm. Mm. Mm. Mm. Mm. Mm. Mm. Mm. That's what's good about her. She's so enthusiastic. She, she gets it done. She never lea where Lee leaves it and then Sunday he says oh god I've got I thought I'd leave this one now cos I need some Playdoh to carry on with it really. yeah but you've done the worst of it haven't you? What's the Playdoh for? Well that was good fun doing that. What's the Playdoh for? Banks. How are you gonna make grass then? Get some grass. That's a good idea I was gonna say Mm. Mm. At the last minute so that it doesn't go brown. No if I have a box and like dad said put that thing in there. A shoe box would do it. Yes. Mm. That's right and surround it with grass. Mm. Mm. And put dirt Tell you what. Moss is the answer. Moss looks like miniature grass. If you can find some moss and dig it up and it lasts longer. It'll last. Yeah. I don't know where you can find it though. No I haven't noticed any round here. Don't think we get any. No. Perhaps you don't. Send you some from East Anglia. Yeah yeah. Moss through the post. Mm. I'm gonna have some dirt and grass in there Soil. Oh soil then. Gonna erm put that in there. And I'll have the two lot's of plasticine in there and the banks. It's funny I was laying in bed last night thinking of, of the different levels in, in Debenhams. All the floors. Oh yes. Yes. They have erm I bet father Christmas is in his grotto there now. Is he, he is late in his grotto in shops? Yes. Yes. Yes. He was really early in what do you call it? When we went. Yeah cos when did we go to London? Cos he was there. Half term week. October. Yes. He was there then. You went to see him didn't you? Mm. Mm that's right. It's been a rum old Christmas. I've never known a Christmas like this Brenda . Mm. You could tell that wasn't a real Father Christmas though. I bet Guildford though . I mean I haven't been to Guildford for oh god I don't know when I think probably with you the last time I went to Guildford. Mm. I dunno when that was. Ages ago. Mm. I could tell that wasn't a real father Christmas at that thing. Cos he didn't have a beard. No. Told you dad went to see the real father Christmas at he didn't have a beard on the one I went to see. Mm. Well they have to have lots of pretends cos there's so many children. Mm Ha. And for good children the real father Christmas doesn't go. Like I told you. No quite. Quite. So you have all these father Christmases in the shops for children that they can't miss out on Christmas but are sometimes naughty children. Cos you imagine the thousands of children there are. Mm. Children? Children. Children. Kiddies. Kiddies. Beg your pardon. Sorry. Erm and father Christmas couldn't go to every single child. No. Some years ago in, in New York I think it was the stores were taking on father Christmases. And they felt they were being exploited. You know they were only being taken on for a couple of months and they, they wanted to form a trade union but quite a lot of the tra er father Christmases wouldn't join a trade union. And eleven of them got involved in a fist fight in the middle of one of those New York streets . It must have been a lovely sight. Lovely. Yes. Have you watched any good videos lately? Tapes. Er let me think. Now what was the last thing I saw? I don't, I haven't watched many videos. Erm I say that but of course Neil borrows Arnold Schwarzenegger videos and I watch a bit of those . He's lethal. Mm. He's very good. He is excellent. But erm See that's another thing you could have got Neil. The, the new erm kickboxer out. How much is that? Ten ninety nine. It's brilliant. Might consider it. Lee, Lee said about it didn't he? Yes. Might consider that. Mm. Yes. Erm but I haven't really watched any serious videos. The last erm quality What is it you want? Oh Home Alone you want don't you? Oh yes. No Three Men and a Little Lady as well. The last the last quality entertainment video that I watched was Pretty Woman but I didn't like it. Oh that is brilliant. Oh no I liked that. Did you? Yeah. Mm. I don't know why. I mean it was kwa kwa kwa Yeah that's what it . Erm I don't know what it was. I can't say Well she has a marvellously engaging personality. Yes. That is what I think I liked about her. Yes. Mm. Mm. I mean the fact and it, that it was, half of it was so true. I mean it's like when Some of it was. she went into the the store. That was perfect. They didn't want to know. But then when she went back! And when she went back and she said er you didn't serve me yesterday. No. You made a mistake. A big mistake. Huge. And she's got this enormous hat box do you remember ? Yeah . Yeah. Yeah no I, I don't know what, I quite liked that. It irritated me a bit because what it what it was saying dirty but what it, what it was saying was in effect that the woman er so long as she's free and and open sexually then she can have whatever she wants. And of course A this is true Mm. and we don't like it. And B it isn't actually true at all because most, most men would simply exploit that in the situation she was in. I say they wouldn't sort of spend like he did. No. No. But I, I like you say I mean half of me There was something I liked it. Yeah. Yeah. But the other half it was crude. Yes. Oh yes. Yes it was crude but What? in my book we have to make a bit like that look. Two lines. You have to put large there and little there. I could stick these, one of these there and put the big one there. In my book. What, for your homework? No. Cos you gotta well haven't you got to write on that project? What, Japan? No it's not Japan is it? It's a museum? This was visions of Japan. Oh are there? It's all about Japan. It's a Japan place. Is that the museum you went to the other week? Yeah. Oh I didn't realize it was on Japan. Yeah. Yeah cos look. I like that It's the it's the Toshiba gallery. It's wonderful Brenda you ought to go there. I thought that was I don't think it was . Yeah and there's that. I like that one of all your school chums. You ought to keep that cos it's a nice memento to keep. Mm. Mm. I'm sticking it in my book. That's a kimono Oh yeah. Aren't they lovely? I couldn't get all of them. They're the What are they? Days of the months. Mm. The months and the days when they They're good aren't they? Mm. Mm. This one You'd better go up to you're yeah it's good. But go up to your room and get your bag packed for what you, ready for you're not going straight to Leanne's you're coming back for half hour or so? Alright. Jean I'll show you my boyfriend. Mm. Boyfriend! Which one it is. That's James. He's the one breaking his thumb but he's not, that's him. But he's the one that's been round isn't it? That's him. Yeah that's the one. Yeah, he's handsome. Who? The blond one. Bobby. Is that Bobby? That's Theresa's boyfriend. Mm. like him? Yeah he's sweet. He reminds me of Dennis the Menace. Ah! That was my boyfriend but he's hurt his thumb and he don't like me any more. Oh! That one there. He's, that's who I like now. Oh he looks nice. Yes. him. Mm. Oh yeah lovely. That's Theresa's boyfriend. I see. That is a nice photo isn't it of youngsters? It's nice to keep. Very and a n and a nice occasion when they're Do you know what you ought to do? On the back Yeah as well. Yes. But on the back you ought to write all the children's names. And their dates of birth and the day that you took the photo and where it was. Because in ten years time you it's surprising how you forget. You'll forget. Because I mean I That's a very good memento. That's my teacher at school but that's just a lady. Yes and that's a helper yes. The mother of somebody I expect. I've got one picture of in my, in the netball. I know. And there's three girls in this netball and do you think I can think their names of us? I know. You know I mean it's so annoying and I wish now I'd done at the time, wrote their names down. Yeah. Yeah. Isn't it funny? I mean you don't see any school chu , I mean I haven't seen hardly any the odd one or two since I left school all those years ago . Mm. Mm. And I st when I started this aerobic class there was four girls up there that I went to school with in my class at school. Oh. Isn't it amazing? Yes. Yeah. Amazing. Well at various times in my life I've come back to Kingston and I first of all used to see peo girls who were at school with me. And now I see girls women who are obviously the daughters who er of girls who were at school with me . I'm just waiting until I see the granddaughters dear and then I shall say right! Ready for the old ladies home. Yeah. So that's like Mr . I mean it's a sort of standard joke when we go to Lee's school. And it's funny Jenny, you know me auntie she went er cos she wanted to go round, Laura goes up not next September, September after Mm. cos you know it's the new erm the intake where they're taking the younger children. The younger again now. Oh yeah, yeah mm. So they're taki it's I think it's daft because they're introducing it in nineteen ninety three and they're taking two age groups instead of taking one. So they've got that great big intake. Oh gosh. Anyway she's gone round all the schools in you know the area. And she's come up with you know,Haweswell she likes best, she was most impressed with. Mm. Mm. Mm. And she said I couldn't believe Bren. I walked in there into the er geography room and erm this chap turned round and said hello Miss . She said and I turned round and she said it was Mr she said! I died she said of embarrassment! Oh no. I said why she said er she, he said ooh, she said oh hallo and he said erm hallo how are you? And she said I'm fine. And she said I got out the door as quick as I could. So then about a week later I was going to the open evening and he said oh ask him how he remembers. And I said oh Miss wants to know was she a little bugger I said or was she a little sweetie. Mm. And he said she was a real sweetie he said. Mm. And Jenny said all those years I had a crush on that teacher she said and I thought he never noticed me. Yeah. Yeah yeah yeah. Ah funny. Yes. And she said cos she said you know she she said I was madly in love with him. Ah. You know how you do, you get your crushes on your teachers? Ooh yes! Ah. And er she said, and he must of noticed me. It was so funny. And he said no she was real you know he said really good. He said you! I said what, well I was good wasn't I? No he said you were a little horror. I said thank you very much . He said you'd ne , I used to say to you get on with your work he said and you'd have a pencil in your mouth he said and you'd be gazing out the window. Yeah. He said never been and I used to be going like this to you. Yeah. Yeah. And I said well I I don't remember, he said I remember. And I thought all the kids that has passed through him Mm. Yeah. how they remember. I mean he knew me as Brenda, my first name. Mm. And that was it. And Jenny he knew as Miss . Well no cos I said to him Miss he said oh you mean Jenny? Mm. Mm. Mm. And he he he knew and he said, and I said you amaze me. Cos I mean he must have had thousand kids in that sort of Mm. seventeen years. Oh yes. Yes. You know, sort of going through. Mm. And er and he and he remembered. Mm. It was quite sweet actually that he that that he actually did sort of remember. Mind you I suppose you can certain pupils you remember their names. Oh yes. Oh yes. You do. And faces. Well it's like Fay. She re she recognized didn't she? Mm. Mm. Yeah. Hello Mrs , I'll never forget it hello Mrs . I thought god you know. And she said how do you know Mrs she said to me. Mm. Mm. God. Unbelievable. Mm. I must give Kim a ring. I haven't spoken, well I've spoken to her. How's Marisa? Ooh! Dreadful! And she phoned me, I saw her about three weeks ago, she asked to come down. I said she I think she's heading for a nervous breakdown. Erm she had to erm she's got the social worker in now, involved in it Mm. Mm. and the police. Erm she goes off on a Friday and you hear or see nothing till sort of Monday night. Mm. Erm and she just, she's just at her wits. Mm. And apparently she phoned her the other night at half past twelve and said can you come and pick me up?said no. No No. Quite right. No. No. And she said but I'm too frightened to walk and she was crying. And she said I don't care. Mm. You should have phoned me at ten o'clock, I would have picked you up. I'm not coming out this time of night. Mm. Mm. And she finally got in at quarter to and she's, oh Kim said she was in a dreadful state. She said but I don't care any more. It's past past No. Course not. Course not. She didn't want it to go to social workers but the police Oh she did the wise thing. Well the police said now For Marisa's sake. any more any more trouble even though she's not getting into bad trouble as such it's going off and coming home Mm. Mm. and among they put it down as the parents er can't control her. That's right. Yes. Mm. So now they're saying if she doesn't, if she goes off again without her mother's consent then they'll take her into care. Mm. Mm. Mm. And she, she just said sooner the better she said cos I can't Yes I think so. I think so. She doesn't, deep down she doesn't, well you don't do you, I suppose you don't want it but you know I mean it's the last fortnight she's meant to be studying and she's been out with her boyfriends and Mm. Mm. Mm. Mm. Do you want me to do your hair? You know, she just, just don't Oh god bless me! Mm. You having it in a plait? Yeah. Sit on the chair there. You're getting so tall now. Mm. How old are you now, Carla? Eleven. Ah. Amazing. Nearly twelve. Twelve in February now aren't you? So you're nearer twelve than you are eleven. Goodness. Oh. You've got such lovely hair. Do you wanna bet Tracy hasn't got the results again? She might have. Do you remember last time? She had it, she got it early one Sa Saturday. Oh yeah. I think though this time here the post is a bit Yeah but it's not cos I, well I want it before the first of December. I wonder if they've come? If she has I'm not gonna ask her. Or ask her a bit later. You've got your ballet chap haven't you? Yeah. What's his name? Can I tell you what he does? Oh Kelly's coming isn't she to see about I think Tracy's gotta put in for the exam hasn't she? Er. See if he's ready. Yeah? Thank you very much. Brenda I've probably done it all wrong. I've just shoved the pots into the dishwasher. That's alright. I'll sort it out. already? Carla can you clear your pencils and that from the table please? Well go up and do it Carla. I'm going to do it when I get back. You've got no time we'll be round n and we'll It'll only take me five minutes. You got them? Truth? No? No. take them up to the bathroom or something you big daft nut. She picked them up Yes. Well they were definitely I've found them Jean Oh thank you dear. Thank you saved my poor old face oh ho ho. Here they are. Oh we've got them thank you very much Carla where were they love? Here. Oh God!on the floor? Oh that Oh hurry up then. Why I bet you didn't realise he was there What time are we leaving Brenda? Half past nine. Oh right few minutes then. Do you want some more tea? Are you going to have some more tea? No I won't bother. I have Hello baby n Two boys go across one boy comes back. One man's got to cross the other boy comes back. Two boys going to cross Go and read your book Jean Hm. Back the man goes across the comes back Have you got something to do to help you Brenda? No erm what have I got to do? Loads of washing. Clean my teeth brush my hair What about your sandwiches? Some crisps or something? Carla have you got you use your money then. I'm not giving you no money. If you want to buy food up there then you use your pocket. Cause I'm sorry I'm not giving you money after that. You got pefec you got sandwiches you got the turkey I bought you. It's in the bag. Or your marmite. You got crisps in there and you've got the five alive drinks for your container. So go and do it please. Or you're not going to Lee Ann's. There's no reason to I won't go to Lee Ann's then. Well don't then. Don't. Don't got that attitude. Got everything organised? I put your stuff out there cause I thought it'd be a bit cooler out there. You know the chocolates and and all that. Good idea. But I have got two pounds for car pack change What are you ready Carla? You got everything? Oh great. You taking that coat? Oh yes I'm going to wear it. I'll get it somewhere. Papers reduced in price I would quite like to paper my bedroom . Hm funny. ?See that's just being sampled sold. Yes yes. This one's been sold. They do they do By an old lady things do sell That's sold. That's been on the market for a long time. Hm. things go Carla? Who is it? Is that Nathan? That's a lovely name wasn't it? he's in your class isn't he? Yeah. Gosh he looks so old. He's growing up too quickly. Hm. They do my dear . They're don't stay little babies any more. No they don't. So if we see Father Christmas Carla you know that head band you wanted for Christmas dancing. If we if Father Christmas only saw one with dancing on it would that be better ? What bag is that ? No you'd rather have the head one? Rather needn't have dances on it and it's sort of black little dancers on it? Which one? Head. That'll be better? . I can't bear these bible bashers that push in like that. No no. So hot. Don't aren't this this the first cast? Yours is I didn't realise this. It's the fourth Bye bye dear. It's got to be a little this weird this morning Well she feels she's being left out or something Come on Oh you! See that's what it is. Yeah She thinks she's missing out because I'm going to Guildford . Missing something yeah yes . Are you going to do Well one of the great lessons of life is of course you can't have everything you want all at the same time it took me about sixty years to learn that. Yeah. I'm not sure that I actually learnt it all yet. I've only got my G C S C and not my degree. I shall A levels. No. Any other any other Saturday I cannot get her up there quick enough. Quite quite . I'm normally in bed and she says Mum I'll walk I'll walk. I don't want to be late I wanna be there . Yeah. Hm. Mm . But this Saturday she obviously decided. Is it running? You got it going? Yeah. Absolutely Ha ha ha ha ha. Me and that clip Mm. up in there. Got it. But I can't Oh ooh!through Can you imagine if this was on the superstore sites. All these houses you got nothing. Oh that one's sold now. Yes they'll be on the market up to a year. Hm mm But they're erm don't make funny noises. Yes. Squeak and erm Isn't it? Nasty. gone with that? Only just really and I never liked just only just. Can't just sort judge No you can't. That's the thing I wanted. Hm. I don't think I'd want to come back to Woking. With I don't think so. No. For one thing I don't want to pick up with people like Joe again or Jean . They're part of a life that's completely over. Different isn't it? And totally different outlook interests. No I think either Guildford . I think Guildford . Ideal for me. Cause it's got the University and evening classes and all the rest of it. Well it's a city well isn't actually is it? It's a town and Neil would get more chance Neil would get more chance in working. Yeah. Because you know there's a lot more going on in Guildford. Mind you I mean what I think Woking's going to be a lot more for youngsters. We've got the bowling alley opening in in February. Yes I don't know what kids would be able to afford it. So what age what age is it going to apply. You see this business of Neil staying in bed all day. Part of it is that interests. Except his karate but then he hasn't got the money to follow things up anyway. No I always think I mean it it just annoys me though I think I get well I just get I just think it's a waste of the day. Well it is but I musn't let it annoy me Brenda because in a way he must know what he's doing. Well that's it. I mean He's probably used staying in bed as his escape. Oh that's it cause you won't be so bored will you. Got away from your mother and The fact you're sleeping you're not thinking about it. That's right. That's right. And you know you try and sort of block things out. It's just a sort of mental Yes yes escape really. It's a sort of block out I know that Pam Palmer said of one of her friends whose husband who's having he didn't like his work. He's not happy. And she said er Angela said to her oh poor Neil has to stays in bed until one o'clock every Saturday and then on Sunday he has a he gets up late and then he has a long rest in the afternoon and Pam said to me he's copping out. Mm. As you see Jerry who was at ease with when he like everybody and there were times when his job got him down. But his attitude he'd been taught to get on and do things so that he would be painting the back of the house or going on with his hobby or doing jobs on the car. He would just do them. Well you've got to get on with it haven't you? Yes. You can't you know. I'd be interested to know whether Neil did that list of things I asked him to do. Like what? Well I asked him to bring the dust bins in. Empty the dishwasher erm with Paul's help to re-hang the curtains. You know that my big the curtains to the patio? You know they're on brown rings with little little tiny screw screwed in metal rings in the brown things? Hm. And you thread them on the curtains through this little metal ring. Well those have started to come away. Now you can't just replace them. You've got to take the whole down. You've got to lift the whole lot off the wall and unthread the curtains and put back the right number of rings and hooks and it's a palaver and I haven't done it. I took the thing down but I haven't put it back. So I said the rings are in the top drawer of the bureau in the garage. If you go and get them get Paul to help you to remount the whole thing. It needs somebody with or whatever you see. Mm. There's that to do. And what else was there? Oh I asked him to go to the insurance company and find out whether I'm covered with them for having my aerial replaced and I wrote a letter asking if he could be empowered to sign the claim form for me Now I wonder whether he managed to do it? Did you leave him a note? Or did you just ask him to do it? I wrote it down. I wrote it all down I asked him as I wrote it down. What did he say? Well because he was half at the time it was just before I left at about nine to come down here you see. Mm. Having said that you don't know whether You don't know How he's feeling at the moment. No no. Oh I do know how he's feeling. He's feeling he's feeling defeated. Well now That's it. I mean the thing is. You try not to you know I mean. You think to yourself oh well. You know things will get better you just feel Oh God! I've been through this That's right. Every slightest thing is very dramatic to me. Yes yes at the moment. Where you know I would just take things in my stride. But the slightest thing is so stupid . When I went to that stress management course we were told to use physical resources like deep breathing and actually making yourself sit down and making yourself go floppy. and let every muscle let it relax. That was a power . That's a week or so. Oh marvellous. When I first when I was first driving in the early 1970's you could park in the quarry car park any time you fancied except the few days before Christmas. Don't they charge you? Oh you you you paid but you could always get a place there I could remember a lot of parking time when I wasn't driving. As near enough all three parks were full. Yes those days are over. again. They're meant to last three two. Oh. Trees are lovely in that little There are a lot Carla she is so tired. Yes. Cause on a Friday night all week she's in and Thursday night Friday night Saturday and Sunday it's all like rehearsals for the Sound of Music. Yes yes Are you going to slacken down the dancing a bit when she's in secondary school? Er well we'll see how she goes. The thing is I mean. Like when she's in the first two classes it won't matter so but as she'll approach the G C S C Yeah but I think now as she's so advanced in her dance She is she's well on. The fact is now I mean where like two years ago she was taking two and three exams at a time. Now it's just one sort of a year. Yes yes. Where it was twice or three times in a year. But now I think they don't many so it's not you know this up to sort of like thirteen they've been taught constantly once to that age. I mean she's still you know less bothered about the older ones but it's very sort of because of the school work and Saturday jobs and Mm yes and all that I mean you know they're not hav they don't have to be as committed No no. When they're sort of younger Mm mm. Well she'll she'll I mean. I always find I say to Kim you know I mean you have all these you know it's like Shaun's giving up he's giving up his karate and his football and I said well you know I'm sorry but she shouldn't have let him. No. I think No. I mean it's about I mean you know I mean it's like today I mean Jeannie said oh well you come with us shopping if you don't want to go dancing. You know I gave her the ultimatum like you can come with us but damn well I wouldn't have let her come. No no. You know I mean I sort You yes But I mean the fact is there's no way she's got she gets the idea You didn't hear me saying oh golly I'd love to have her come with us? No that's it because No I mean The fact is she's she's dedicated to her dancing. So Mm she must be at this stage. you know there's no ifs and buts skiving off because she wants to do something else. I mean the other week she wanted to go to a school disco and I said look hang on n get your priorities right. And I said okay and I said to her dance teacher in front of her she wants to go to a disco. And she said to her she said er her teacher said to her oh you know do you what you were doing. She said well I'd like to go because it's my last year and her her teacher said to her well I'm sorry she said but no I'm not happy with you taking time off. No no no You've got exams coming up and I'd rather you Quite quite yes yes. be here. Yes yes. And then she said okay fair enough. I will. Hm mm mm. But erm God that tape can't have finished. Hm. turn itself off actually. It's being blooming awkward. It's like being It's so hot in my head. It certainly was very hot in that house. These shops never change in here do they? No. For years I bet that mind you it looks quite a newish one that one and son. Chinese hot I know it says the car park's full but I'm going to try it. Yes. Doopsey doopsey. Normally you sit in er you know the trouble is as long as the police aren't here. If the police are here they make you go right round and sit and wait. Oh I'll bet. This is sometimes it's a pain though it does Oh my God! Blimey! The trouble is if it's like this here it's like this in all of them. That's the only thing. What shall what what do you think of doing? Well I'll wait here for a bit I mean you'll queue at the others if I turn round. You see you get them. See we're moving What what about the Quarry one? Where's that down at Debenhams? I don't know erm. It's a bit out of the Town. It's where we've just come up er but you turn left. I think this will move Jean. I mean I'm mean It seems to be moving pretty fast. There's some movement. No it's cause it's it's it's only if the police come they'll they'll move you on. Yes yeah. A bit of excitement there. Didn't shut up. Moving. See it normally does Mm move but sometimes the police will come on and say I'm sorry but you've got to You're not allowed You know you've got to sort of move on. Yeah. On the whole I mean there's only three cars in front so . What are those then? Are they flats or are they to do with car parks or what? Above the That's flats home I wouldn't like to live above a car park. Would you? No Normally see I mean I'm surprised this early before ten o'clock Everybody else had the same idea. Christmas shopping. You're right. Imagine in December it would be absolutely murder. Oh erm totally. Totally out of the question. Normally see as people as the cars come out the lights change. Hm mm mm. Obviously this early is that's actually come out. No no no. And the size of it I can't see it being full up. No. Mention ten o'clock she's got bags. Yes yes. I suppose a lot of people come in and they know exactly what want. Yes yes . I mean I can't even know what shops we want. Yeah Rather than the And especially if they planned to go somewhere else today. There's a car coming out so they should change colour. No it's on the outside. No it's not on the outside. Yes that's changed see? One's gone in. Two's gone in. Oh ha ha ha. No the police won't move us in on until we're halfway here. Right. Yeah It's when you're sort of there. Hm hm mm. She's caused more problems backing out from here he's naughty behind me Yeah yeah. cause he's come right across the The keep clear space yes yeah yeah Keep clear sign which he shouldn't have done. No. Even though they're coming out on the inside. It's the outside they're coming out. That's when the light changes. It's like a magnet obviously see? On the outside? I wonder. It's normally erm Yeah Bit bit. Normally there's load down stairs but obviously it's it works on the basis erm How do you get to the downstairs bit Brenda? Do you know? Virtually it'll change now he's coming out. You go up round then you come down yes you can through but people queue and wait for one on the top. Oh I know. I know. So annoying. Yeah. If you look down there you will see On this floor now you might somebody's just coming out you might be lucky but nine times out of ten it's it's I'm keeping my head swivelling from side to side to see if I can spot a space on there. Yeah. We're going Hm mm mm mm. No. Going to be murder about eleven o'clock. Oh my goodness me yes It's just spotting someone coming out Mm mm Unless those mind you those lights to change there must be an empty space. Oh yes. Well you think so anyway. Well er yeah. Where are these people going? Is there anybody behind us? Yeah. is coming out. You going out? Oh goodness the window's stuck. Still I think she gave you the sign for we are going out. That's great! Yes. Then he comes in and pinches the They won't Thank you They won't Brenda because if they did I would be opening the window or door and telling them exactly their fortune. Yeah It's angle. Hm That's beautifully done Brenda. Lovely lovely parking. I've got two pounds in change. Have you got any? Because it might be odds David's coming back. Yeah Let's just have a look. Let's let's have plenty. Oh you've got change yeah. Yeah. What do you think it comes to? No. Give us the odd the odd tens or twenties. I've got enough I think it's thirty pence an hour. It is as I remember it yes. Have a have a another twenty. Right. Have another twenty. Yeah Sorry that's a one er a ten Right that will do. You think so? Yep that'll do. Be a little devil why not Mm. Here they got put it all out there. That's all very nice isn't it? Hm hm. Oh. Look at that decoration behind you Jean. God can't you see ? Mm. You know I've done it again. After all that I've left ciggies in the car. Yes yes. Brenda! Nip down and get some I am so useless it's unbelievable. When you're trying to keep track of so many things aren't you? Keys I get them out I still lost those ones that I got with the matches. Somewhere in my house I've lost a twenty pound note. That's even more and more . Mm The matches matches. Oh God coming down. Tip it all out on the table Brenda. Oh you're joking Jean. No. er. God you'd die of shock. Er The trouble is I'm trying to keep everything in order that we need. Mm. Shall I take some of it? No. That's that's all what? Got my lighter and the matches but cigarettes I've left in the car Never mind I can't let . She says. I'm so thirsty. Mm. Oh it's a shop. I was wondering what's that up there.? There's Cornflakes that have filled me up. Mm I don't think I ate a lot of them. No Very . I suppose we get out of line then When you're expecting jam and it turns out to be marmalade it's quite a shock. It's marmalade. I think it is. It's very sharp Yeah thick cut marmalade. Mm. my mother for oh God for thirty years forty years. I mean she doesn't doesn't see a lot of her erm you know and but she and she was talking to her the other day because she doesn't like to get involved or say a lot but No. she was saying that you know mother is very evil and wicked. She knows? Oh yes she soon learnt. She didn't want to say it but then in the end No. It came out. It came out and she said you know she very the way she treats you Mm mm. She's just unbelievable. Mm mm. She just couldn't believe that's the way I mean your mother tries to torment you. It just doesn't sink in any more. I mean it's just you know that gone wrong and it doesn't Yeah. I could do with a couple of those. I like those stands with the marble tops. Hm hm a lot Hm mm. And they've got ever Hm. Hm. 's furniture is very much more practical than a lot of the traditional stuff that's sold in the shops at vast expense isn't it? Mm it's dished up in that Mm mm.. This tea and that little bit gives you any inclination how to go about that Oh I see look. Department numbers and how you spend it so you must have to fill this card in I should think The only the only department is the cosmetics that's not we'll ask when we get there. Mm mm. It's not half past ten already is it? Hm. I was just thinking. Returning from Stone Market. I had a taxi at twenty past nine. I arrived at the station in good time for the train but I didn't have to wait more than three or four minutes and I was in London at ten to eleven. That's not bad going is it? No. At Liverpool Street. Leave the from the journey. That was the next bit. Yeah. Yeah. Journeys are funny. You'd think because we live on you know Woking is on top of us but it's but it I notice that it was quite you know a time. By the time we sat down here I thought well considering that we came in by car door to door practically and that when the driving wasn't public transport it it's taken quite a time to get into It's we actually got car locked didn't we? We left home at half past nine. So it's taken an hour just to drop her off, Get parked and get in here. It's taken an hour. Mm mm mm. Like you say you could sort of travel into London in that hour couldn't you? Yes yes strange isn't it? Strange how it works. Mm. Interesting to see people's bags Hm . Inside of that everything else. There's some the baby in the highchair smashed it Mm mm. Now unless you're out with your husband I can't see the point of bringing your baby out on Christmas shopping It's too crowded for the kid isn't it? Mm. mm mm. Mind you some people I suppose have got no option. That they have to. Yeah My preferred option would be to leave the chap at home with the baby. That's what I did when Ann was small But then Jerry wasn't interested in shopping anyway. He quite liked to leave it to me. No. Rather be home and let you get on with it. Hm hm hm. I think you get you get either a man who really likes shopping don't you? Mm. Or ones that always just totally dislike it. Yes That's engaged to. He loved shopping. Really? Woolworths Marks and Spencers Discount Stores all the absolutely. What about the guy that she's seeing at the moment? Oh I don't know. Don't know? I have only met him twice. By the operation of sod's law I wouldn't mind betting that this nice old man will turn out to be a lovely companion and will treat me as I like men to treat me. With great respect and kindness and fun and then I will sell the house and the great And they'll say that's a good scoop. Getting a out isn't it? Mm Sausage roll. just a bit sort of all right. Dave's coming over this afternoon. I don't think he'll . No. What was he coming over for? For the suit for Liz. Oh yes of course. The in all satin. Mm. But I should think knowing him he'll know what it's like. He normally parks down by the old A A. Oh yes And walks in Do you ever sort this coronation soup at home. Yes I have made it. It's easy. Is it just like a mayonnaise sauce. Hm. Yeah Number ten? Her. Number ten? What time did you tell Marge? Or did you not tell her a time? I said fivish. Oh. That was right wasn't it? Hm. Blimey that's Hm. That's you got Debenhams receipt there. Mm. I'd like to see what less we got off. Mm. It is in in there. Yes I in with the Debs card yes. When you pick your Debs card up. You'll find your Debs Card. That's it. Oh no their till receipt This is the one isn't it? Connect Card ha ha ha ha. It's my ability to leave lose these things is is wonderful. Matchless. Sorry. That black top. That sweatshirt top that I got which was seventeen ninety nine. You got that for Thirteen pounds fifty five erm Yes please. Thirty two pounds off. Mm. That's marvellous So it should would have been a hundred and forty five. Yes. God there's a hell of a difference isn't there? Yes it is. But the only thing awkward I suppose about that is the fact you've got to erm carry it around. Mm. All right I mean all right she did so that one of the guys would perhaps carry it around for you. You don't like to ask them But you don't like to because of the fact you know he'll be erm sort of lugging it around and you'd feel you'd actually have to sort of hurry him up wouldn't you? You know hurry up Yes yes because When I have been entertaining Shirley and Terry Jones doing an evening meal on a Saturday or a Sunday and sometimes both to help Shirley when she was getting into the run of going back to work I found that one of the cheapest of dinner party deserts was lemon meringue pie. Mm. And everybody likes it. It always goes down well doesn't it? Mm. Christmas time whenever. Mm. And to take the hex off it I grate the lemons the day before and wrap the grated rind in cling film. Yeah you do that don't you? Mm. I know that one you made last time you were down. There's no waste in our house . That's right I No. What's having. Having turkey for Christmas or? Hm? They having turkey at Christmas or don't they let you know? I don't know what they'll have. You see Mary Ann and Mitch are vegetarian Are they going for dinner as well at Richard? Oh I think so. Yes I think it's going to be a proper family Christmas. The trouble with that if you turn it down Then that would be awful. Even this is probably this one year you could probably done with I could have done with saving some. I would've liked to have looked after me and kept an eye on the rest with Paul. Yes. Everybody. Yes. It's fairly typical though isn't it? One year you could do with Mm mm mm . staying around You mean as it is? I think that Neil was a bit of a sensitive area. Hm. You know I'm I'm spending money and time on him that really I suppose in theory I would be spending on my own grandchildren. However I take the attitude that in modern times people don't people are not obliged The thing is who else All right? to feel by duty as it were that they ought to take notice of their immediate family. John and Maryanne are capable of financially supporting themselves. So I don't worry about the money aspect. And in every other way psychologically emotionally morally they are able to look after themselves. Neil isn't. I think and I think that's that's saying you can't pick your families. You can pick your friends. Mm. It is true. So true. Mm. Because You found it so. You can do without that hassle and at least if you've a good relationship you got a good . Mm mm. At least there's not a lot of chance to have hassles. No no. But that's how relationships should be. Mm mm. It is one of the great arguments for the old fashioned sort of religion. Which you could turn you could legitimately turn to people and say why are you leaning on me so hard for all this support? You ought to be reading your bible saying your prayers going to church and getting in touch with the boss. That's why I laughed when they were said Terry Waite would need counselling. I bet that Terry Waite was praying his head off and he'd memorised masses of the bible which he would be reciting to himself probably said he thought two o'clock every afternoon I'll remember what I can of Book of Isaiah you know. I don't suppose he needed any counselling. He'd do better counselling other people. That's right. Yes. Because I mean he's he's er needs it all. Even though he's been to a prison I mean. He's seen what's going on and five years is it? Yes yes. voluntary bit. Thank you. It's delicious. Beautiful stuff isn't it? I really want another. In East Anglia people either in the on their pub lunches they either throw themselves on to that or on to treacle pudding. Yeah but often it's a bit heavy though isn't it? Sometimes it Or It's nice only bread and butter pudding with custard or chocolate ho ho! We've really eaten East Anglia Don't often see an older man in white white jumpers. No. He looks nice. Mm. they have got some nice men's clothes. Yes. They do I mean the women usually buy men's clothes Yes Hm mm Do you buy Dave's clothes for him? No I mean women buy them to wear. Oh yes. these coats erm from men's department. They just like to sort of I don't know why but they just seem to sort of Well men's the fabrics of men's clothing is better stronger. Hm. Because men feel cold more. I mean they can wear if you think about it they wear suits in the middle of summer where we're into sleeveless linen dresses. Mm. Erm and er the colours for men by tradition are much I think they're much subtler Hm. My I hope they reopen at Bernie. This isn't too bad actually but and I hope you know It's quite nice. It's done done as well enough but I do prefer a Bernie. Do you remember that girl? She was always Oh yes. Lovely person . She was very cheerful very very nice. I wonder if they have come up against a rapacity of the of the rates. But don't you remember they kept kept saying they were going to shut us down shut us down and then six months later we went there and then ah no they're not shut us down and No no. Yes. Goodness there's a great sort of burden off isn't it all this sort of shopping er you got to go we finished all the shop and that's it. Mm. What have we got to do next? Smiths And I must make a real effort to find one of these machines that's working. Outside the post office. Mm. Er We've got to get Smiths and we've got to get. Dave's book paper back for Marge. Calendar for Shirley. Because they weren't good in They were miserable in Debenhams. Erm Debs we've completed. mm. Bookshop Jackie paper back erm Marks and Sparks slippers and March Marg Boots for tights. We'll have skip back Maureen winter tights. Should be more than a bit but I got Marg. Maureen isn't it? Mm. Jumpy bits in my pocket is a lot easier Finished with it? Thank you yes. Super And that. And that one. You can have them all. The heavy doing them justice. isn't it? So is Jackie spending Christmas on her own or you don't know? No I think that they'll probably go down to the Mum and Have they made any sort of new friends where they are? No. No? There aren't any people where they are. Aren't they? No. They are next door neighbours who I think are very nice but I don't think that Jackie and Nev have a lot in common with. That's one house that adjoins them and then a little further on it's a lane. It's about as wide as this Brenda. Well what do they need? What what area is it? It's called Fenn Lane How much is it? And it's in between St Mary and Needham market. And how far is it from you? About a between ten and fifteen minutes drive I suppose. Ten minutes perhaps. Oh it's not far. No. Still doing her kitchen job? Yes and she phoned me and she said I feel as though I dropped out of the bottom of the world she said. You know I just don't see anybody. Well of course you're working on Monday. You see she used to have Mondays to herself and I would often go round on a Monday afternoon and we could we could talk. But that's gone and I said I can't run in at half past five when you get home from school and chat to you because Nev will be coming at six and I don't want to be there all that often when he's there erm it's just you know it's just happened. And I also thought to myself and I'm probably going to move a lot further away than Fenn Lane. She doesn't I mean she doesn't bother that much now does she? No. I mean I think been up She can with a true friend. I'm very sorry for her because I think she and Nev have made a really a quite ferocious mess of their lives. Nev never intended to be slaving away doing kitchen fitting. He wanted to wood sculpture that was his idea in And slow down a bit didn't he ? Yes yes. Cause he's almost He's on the gallop and he looks very old and worn. Does he? Mm. And she never wanted to return to full time teaching. It's providential for her that she's got a job that she's very good at and that she enjoys. In an extremely nice school. And my handkerchief such as it is if she is no. I'll have to go to the loo or something to get some paper I shan't worry about. Such a perishing bore Oh bless you thank you very much. Knew I had a I hope to get it. Hm mm. And Jackie's That's right and who knows. When we go into Smith's in Woking I've got myself Busy I might see something for Jackie. Mm. Yeah. It's only two o'clock. I'm amazed. Yeah. Yeah. And I really feel like going back putting my feet up and chatting to you a bit more because we haven't chatted enough have we? we have always got the bulk we are only going to be in Woking an hour. Yes. We haven't chatted enough will you the er tapes . You really feel that we've really put into it and really done well haven't we? Oh I couldn't have done a quarter of it. And I think I'm left with two people and that's it. I couldn't have a quarter of it. No. I'd have dithered and I'd have got tired and I'd gone off of Oh well I think I well I'll come back off holiday That's right I'll do it again and I'll have another go at it. Well I could have spent the whole week. I just I just I could have spent five afternoons and it was finished. I could have done more . I don't think I would have done. Cause I work at cause a couple of weeks ago I thought I God I'll make an effort. I thought I think it makes a very big difference knowing that Yeah without having to think too hard. And still you make sure I mean you know for that what I've spent. Oh it was well worth Oh it was well C It's got everybody. Yeah it was within you budget and you've done the lot. I went over budget but then I expected I would. Cause for one thing I was buying for more. Yes. You know did you I mean none of us realised you had thirty odd to buy But I remember when you said that that last year Fifty odd. I think fifty three. Yeah And I think the year before years before I've had something like forty or thirty five. In what you might call quiet years. Funny those in Smiths for two pounds off are lovely. Mm. And the ones we saw in Marks and all that were nothing were they? And it pays to travel about You see the problem with Jackie and Nev is always been that they can't believe that you can get things in a place like W H Smiths that will that will do very nicely as a Christmas present. They tend to go always to the top of the But it doesn't pay Oh yes yes. They go a a Medici shop or Athena or whatever and they're looking at the best. Well you can't afford to See Mary Ann and Mitch are giving up on erm buying Christmas presents because she says you're buying things for people and they everybody's therefore I think that tokeny things are the best. And that's what I've bought this year. Tokeny things And is that is that what she's doing? They're buying disposable presents like giving theatre vouchers and erm I don't know what else but she said disposable things that people can have some fun with . Good idea isn't it ? Mm. And what I'm giving is just something nice in the spirit of Christmas but it hasn't broken my bank or my back. Things done in one. How these people go week after week after week looking for bargain I mean Chris I mean we picked up some bargains today but how you can go week I mean it's okay yes but when you're Christmas shopping you can't go for because it's just No no you can't Because it's just so I mean that C and A is so busy all the it gets it gets so claustrophobic . Mm mm yeah . Look at this traffic coming in now. And I think the way we did it we marked down the three shops we wanted to do and make sure you do those three shops. I don't think that even though by next year I would be a bit better of in the sense that I should have sold my house bought something cheaper and have some capital invested so that I have a little extra monthly income. I should be living in some where that's cheaper to run. You don't know you might end up with this this little old chap you're with. Oh I wouldn't mind but I wouldn't marry anybody You might live with him. Mm mm on and off. You don't know do you? You don't know. I mean then yes you can buy a smaller even more so then. Well I would. I I mean I intend to keep my own roof whatever. Neil can be in it and look after it. Yes erm but I don't think I'll ever again buy expensive Christmas presents in the way that I did in the past. Spending forty and fifty pounds a head on A head? for mm Isn't it? Like the gents' track suits and Yes. No I can't er I can't think of myself as doing that again. I think it's it's like those candies there's lots of little things you know which people are buying. It's like those bags I mean le I mean I'd go if they bought me one of those bags. Yes. You know if er people don't oh no they're only one twenty five and you can't buy someone that. Mm. But it's not not not the issue of it is it? No no it isn't. Huge Mm. home people Brenda and I thought Guildford between us. Yesterday we bought Camberley. Yeah. Oh yes. thing we got so many of each yes. A bit cold. Mm Oh ooh Well I think that's a good idea though that he's got boxes from Marks. I bet they'll be a real seller those boxes which No wonder they call them underwear boxes. Oh yes! If you had to buy a box then the tissue paper then the bow Oh I know . The time consumed in getting it all in. All I would do with it just to fancy it up you know to buy some of that pink sheering stuff Yes. and curl it. Mm. and just tie it on the top. Yeah You've saved on wrapping paper Yes. I've got to get some petrol I have to get at When did you ask me in Guildford B H S now? You said it was for a B H S . That's right. Erm I can't It'll come to me I like how many of those tops you got on? I've only got this one. I had a cream one and it got wrecked by going I think Neil put it in the wash with one of his black T-shirts. It came out all Really it's really flattering top. It is. It's very soft and easy to wear and Yeah. Erm Well I don't know erm they're warm. They are warm and but it's colour I don't know whether I perhaps if I saw cream again this year I might buy it but erm I'm not sure that I want to when this deep orangy colour. I bought a red one in a different style but the same sort of fabric in Benthalls. Do you remember? When I bought that black and white check skirt Oh yeah . I bought a red blouse You worn that ? Yes but the sleeve the wrong side. I'm picking the sleeve head and trying to get it together. And I would have got it together if I'd had time had gone out to work instead of for days on end being unemployed and sitting and telling me about Karen. Honestly Brenda you pay for being nice. Oh but he he said the same things He goes on and Of course he does. He goes over and over yeah. Doesn't listen to a word I say. Like the woman's no good Of course I told some things about Wendy. But it really made yet more hair fall off the top of his bald head. I said fairly bluntly. I said look a working woman needs a working man to help support herself and her children. I said no nobody is going to be able these days woman not be able to support herself on twenty hours a week which is what Karen does putting out bread in the Asda. Is she the original one then. She's the original one. She's not the one that was coming around with the baby? No. It was Michelle who was coming around with the baby. That's right. And I found two pairs of Michelle's knickers after that and I didn't know what I shou . Now I don't know how they managed this dear because she was coming round in the day with little Donna with her and I was around and there you are you see. Indeed love will find a way. Anyway erm I said to him look. A women needs a man to support her. I said mark the chap that she's got at the moment is taking her out to discos and things and she'll find that he doesn't really want to kick in and help to support her. I said she she might well come back to you. I said she's tried to keep you on a string just in case she didn't land the next fish. He looked horrified. You know as far as he's concerned it's all love and glamour. How come she took him back then? She didn't want . Well I think that she was trying to keep him dangling so that she'd have somebody to fall back on if she didn't land another man. But wasn't she sort of playing around with another man? She is now. She is now yes. She's now carrying on. What did he say? Erm he's seen the man going in and out of the house. She's told him that she's got this other man. Cause I can remember him saying before he used to drive round to spy. Yes. Well there is another man and she has told Paul that frankly she's lapping up the attention. He's taking her out for meals and they're having a good time together you know. Quite strange but as soon as he's paid for for the goods and got the goods the chap's going to go off looking for another. Yes. Cause he doesn't want to stay with her. But I've told Paul that if he goes back to Karen and you know takes some his things out. Then he takes all of his things out and himself and he never comes back. Is he is he I've had this twice and each time it's been upheaval because he's got a lot of goods which had to moved in shoe horned in moved peoples belongings out of one cupboard into another. And the second time round it's been perfect for him because he bought from Karen's house the Hoover and the saucepans and everything that was his. Everything that belonged to him. But he said that before I said why was Michelle able to come in between you and Karen. He said well Karen had been getting moody. He said Karen is getting . Paul is boring. She's told Paul that he's boring. What Paul needs is this little girl who doesn't care whether a man's a bit boring. Yes. Because I can imagine Paul being sort of a homely chap. He is. If he gets the right sort He is. league with someone who can put up with his sort of quietness and conversation cause he likes to chat and this. But I mean Yes yes yes He's a pleasant enough chap. He is isn't he? Yes. But he is not erm a playboy. He's not going to spend money on like Pete was forever buying Pam cheap jewellery from Ratners and erm things of that nature. Did he ever get back with her? Well she tells me that she's going to throw Shaun out because Shaun is boring er dun put er Shaun she has no respect for she says because he hasn't got a job. He won't get a job he won't work. And she said to me what did I think of the idea of taking Pete back. Once they were properly divorced taking him back just as er a lover. And I said that sounds to me to be a very good idea. I said then you're not at his mercy because anybody to whose at Pete's mercy will suffer. He's got a very nasty streak. He's got a nasty snide way of putting things. Has he? Oh yes nasty. But he's he's quite fond of her isn't he? Oh he adores her. Oh yes he wants her back. And I said she said I you see I know him. I said there's a lot to be said for a chap that you inside out know his ways and how to cope with them but never ever put yourself at his mercy by marrying him. And the house will be hers you see when they're properly divorced. It will be in her name. So if he starts coming the old soldier she can bung him out. Did she bail herself out in the end with over her money situation. Oh yeah I went guarantor for that. Oh you had did you have to pay the money? Because you No no she managed I told her on pain of death not to tell Pete that I was backing Mm erm cause otherwise he would of sat back and said oh Jean can pay that. That's right. But she knew that in the last resort that if he did win that I would do it but he's he's paid off now. As soon as he paid off he went on the dole again. He's quite a gypsy you know he looks like a gypsy. Did you meet him? No never met him. Oh! Plausible rogue. My God! Look at the queue to get into the car park. Is it? No? Yeah. Oh you're going right oh yes you haven't got your right no. I thought perhaps that the hooting was What's he He don't need to . No. Something . No I've never sort of come across him. You might yet. You said he was sort of looked gypsified. Oh yes See this is the new orders. Mm should have gone to the one the offices that are by Woolworths Is that a Bernard or one that you happen to know of? Well it's just er office car park and I normally use it. We don't come into the I just thought as we want Smiths and Intersports Mm mm. it's this end Yeah rather than walk all the way from Woolworths. Yeah. I think a cup of tea don't you? Erm if you want one. We'll see how Well we'll see how we go. I don't think I've got anything more to get actually except er Book. That's all. And for Jackie if I see it. And Dave's book. Dave's book. Yes I'm sure that's going to be straight forward. Book for Jackie not quite so straight forward. I don't know though. I mean I'd actually I don't think I'll get a book for Jackie because I will be honest with you she has so much reading to do for her English teaching and drama. Oh I've got to take you in the Chinese shop. Ah-h-h! Remember you haven't been in there yet have you? No. The Japanese shop. Ah-h-h! It's fantastic. I bet you buy something in there. Ah-h-h! They just do it's only round the corner and I remember last time I said I'd take you and I didn't. No. That's right. Oh it's lovely cause the girls in there wear the kimon Oh the. That's Chinese isn't it? And kimono for the Japanese. What's the And a sash round the middle Yes. The obi. Yes and they wear a sort of like a back thing on the back. Is that Chinese. Oh yes That's Japanese. Yes Japanese shop then it is. Oh but they do some beautiful things in there. And my other favourite shop I love in Woking is the birthday shop. Ooh! They do like erm ever so unusual things. You know lovely pencil sharpeners and rubbers. And they're all so like ten Mm and twenty p things but ever so unusual. Like there might be an ice cream co all fun things. It's a real Oh how nice. Real lovely shop. Doesn't pay you to go back you can only go forward. No, no that's right. Unlike you say, I mean, have you ever heard what's happened to Jo and her husband, her husband was ill wasn't he? Yes, he's alright, well I don't suppose he's alright, but he's, he's staggering on you know in the way that , yeah. Yeah. Marg keeps me informed, she said she meets Jo in the town and they exchange a few words with them Well what's Marg doing now then? She's writing a children's book, erm, well she's written one, and it's going around to the publishers and she's written or she's writing a second. Nice. She is a, a fanatical gardener she goes and visits friends throughout the year, Marg has got her life well settled, yes. Has she still got all that weight? It's falling off. It is falling off . Just as I predicted it would, it's falling off. She's happy you see. Mm. Is she still seeing that chap? I think so, yes. Doesn't say much about him cos he lives in Barnslow and only comes over occasionally that he can sort things out on the . I rather think that he still lives in and as Marg said coyly to me one year, he had given her a lovely little candle in a special little bowl with, with water Mm. safety candle, but it was very pretty, it's from Marks & Spencers and she said er your candle has, has just give up the rights of last night . . Oh yes cos she was rather large wasn't she? Yes Are these taken?. No. No Do you want one or two? Two. I'll move round We won't be very long . Were going it won't be long before we go anyway. . Yeah, quite, quite, yes. Where do you come from then? Er this part of . Oh yes, yes. That's an effort. Trouble is where ever where you go at the moment, I mean all the cafe's you've got to wait and no seats is there, we tried another one before we came here. Yes. I must admit this town short of cafe's for reason. Mm, there used to be the Cardoma almost opposite here, it was an enormous cafe downstairs and an upstairs, and when that went there was nothing to replace it Are you ready to go? Yes, I'm just, just scrobbling about Brenda to see where I've put my purse. Don't worry I'll get this, Ray gave me some money, I've got ten pounds so You sure? Yeah, I'll go and sort this out. Right, and I, I must get to the Nationwide. Yum. Mm . Good isn't it? Mm, mm. . Mm mm, mm Looks nice doesn't it? Mm, it is nice That's nice isn't it, that was a mince pie with cream. Mm. Don't often er get things like that do you? No I've always liked the in Woking, I've always liked that for a little snack. I've never been in there. Mm they were different now but I always used to like it. Mm, where's . Obviously Oh its nice . I knew you'd like it Mm Number eleven So how's it, Neil's getting on with his karate then, he's still He's enjoying it his karate. He's still serious about it? Mm He's been doing it for quite a while now hasn't he? Oh yes It must be nearly a year. Is it? Mm what about green or orange or yellow? He's an orange belt I think at the moment. I think its white, yellow, orange, green, I think he's orange, I think he's next one is green, I can't quite remember. Is he, is he going to go for his black? Oh yes, he wants eventually to have his own group and I'm encouraging him. It's like erm that leisure, I mean he's obviously learned his lesson when he did that competition that time didn't he and he, he went in and he passed didn't he? Mm, mm Has he done competition since that? Yes, he did reasonably well, he hasn't done anything outstanding but he, he's, he's done better. Does he keep his cool though? Mm, mm. Probably learnt hasn't he? Mm Neil found the But he, he, he enjoys it doesn't he? Oh yes and they said that's a good school for Get him a out in it? Mm Sausage roll Restaurant's just oh if Dave, Dave's coming over this afternoon, I don't think . No. If we leave the phone . Mm, what was he coming over for? Erm, for the suit for Len. Oh yes of course. He hates shopping on a Saturday. Mm. But I should think knowing he'll know what's it like, he normally parks down by the old A A Oh yes. and walks in. Mm, mm Do you ever cook, this coronation chicken at home? Yes I have made it, mm, its easy. Is it just like a, a mayonnaise sauce? Mm, yeah What time did you tell Marg, or did you not tell her a time? I said fiveish, that was right wasn't it? Crikey that's . Mm That's what I was said, have you got your, that's Debenhams receipt there? Mm. I'd like to see what the got off. Mm It isn't in there. Yes I Put it Yes in with the card? I did, yes. As long as you've picked your Debs card up. Its a question of finding card What's that?oh no, no till receipt. This is the bill isn't it? can I have the card ha, ha, ha, ha,, my ability to leave, loose these things is, is wonderful, So that black top that sweatshirt top that I'd got for Lee, it was seventeen ninety nine, you got that for thirteen pounds, forty five erm thirty two pound off. Mm, that's marvellous, so it should of been a hundred and forty five . Yeah, there's a hell of a difference ain't there? Yes, it is. But the only thing awkward I suppose about that is the fact you've got to erm, carry it around. Mm. Why, I mean alright should you so that one of the would, is that, carry it around for you. You don't like to ask do you? But you don't like to because of that you know, you'll be erm, sort of lugging it around and Mm. and you'd feel you'd actually have to sort of hurry him up wouldn't you, you know hurry up because Yes, yes When I have, have been entertaining Shirley and Terry , doing an evening meal on a Saturday or a Sunday, sometimes both to help Shirley when she's getting into the run of going back to work I found that one of the cheapest of dinner party deserts is lemon meringue pie Mm. everybody likes it. It always goes down well, don't they Mm . Christmas time, whatever. Mm and to take the I grate the lemon the day before and wrapped the grated rind in cling film. Yeah you do that didn't you? Mm. I know that one you made last time you were down was a That's right darling . no waste in our house. No, hope not What's Ken and Marg having turkey at Christmas or Mm? are they having turkey at Christmas or don't they, don't you know? I don't know what there'll have, you see Naomi and Mitch are vegetarian Are they going for dinner as well at Simon's? Oh I think so, yes, I think it's going to be a proper family Christmas Probably like you say, if you turn it down Oh that would be awful. Before Number eleven . even this, it's probably this one year you could probably eat a I could of done the same at home, I would of liked to have looked after Neil and kept my own electric . Yes, everybody, yes. It's fairly typical though isn't it one year you Mm, mm . could do with Mm. staying around you mean . I think that Neil is a bit of a sensitive area. Mm. You know, cos I'm, I'm spending money and time on him that really has those in theory I would be spending on my own grand children, however, I take the attitude that in modern times, people don't, people are not obliged The thing is today our To feel , by duty as it were, that they ought to take notice of their immediate family, John and Maryann are capable of financially supporting themselves, so I don't worry about the money aspect and in every other way physiologically, emotionally, immorally they, they are able to look after themselves Neil isn't . But I think, yeah, and I think that, that, saying you can't pick your families, you can pick your friends. Mm, this is true. So true Mm. because nine times out of ten You found it so? well you can do without without that hassle, I mean, with a relationship you've got a good Mm, mm. at least, there's not a lot of types that have hassle's. No, no. But that's how relationships should be. Mm, mm its one of the great arguments from the old fashioned sort of religion, that you could turn, you could definitely turn to people and say why are you leaning on me so hard, for all this to fought, you ought to be reading your bible, saying your prayers, going to church and getting in touch with the boss why I laughed when they were saying that Terry Waite would need counselling, I bet that Terry Waite was praying his head off and he'd memorised masses of the bible which he would be reciting to himself probably set himself two o'clock every afternoon, I remember what I can, book of you know I don't suppose he'd needed any counselling, he'd probably do better counselling other people. That's right, yeah, cos I mean he's, he's certainly sort of, even though he's been sort of prisoner, I mean, he's seen what's going on and, and he's had what five years of it? Yes, yeah. and he's sort of life sort of gone. . Oh thank you This is delicious. Beautiful stuff isn't it? Mm . Really have some more In East Anglia, people either in, eh, on their pub lunches there, how they throw themselves onto that, all on too treacle pudding. Yeah, but, oh, eh, it a bit heavy though in it?, sometimes it Or home made It's nice . bread and butter pudding with custard or death by chocolate . . We really eat in East Anglia Obviously in white jumpers. No, she looks nice. Mm, yes where do you think they look, they have got some nice mens . Yes . I mean Mm half the women I think buy men clothes Mm, mm do you buy Dave's clothes for him? No, I meant women buy them to wear. Oh yes, they Women , erm from men's departments, cos they just, like she said they, I don't know why, but they just seemed to sort of Well, men, the fabrics of men's usually better, stronger mm. because men feel cold more, I mean they can wear, if you think about it they were suits in the middle of summer where were into sleeveless Yeah . Erm, and, er, the colours for men by tradition are much, I think are much subtler mm . Well I hope they re-open the Bernie, this isn't too bad actually, but, I like, you know This is quite nice . it's done, done us well enough, but I do prefer a Bernie. Mm that was do you remember that girl she was always Oh yeah Sweet wasn't she Lovely, girl very cheerful yes. very, very nice. I wonder if they have, come up against the rapacity of the, of the rates. Don't you remember they kept saying, they kept saying there gonna shut it down, shut it down, and then six months later we went round there, oh no there no shut No, yes , yeah yes God its a great, a great sort of burden off isn't it all this sort of shopping erm, just got to go in Smiths and, we, I Paynes goodness knows the . What have we got to do next? Smiths, we'll go in there next. And I must make a real effort to find one of these machines that's working. Try the Post Office. Mm Smiths, we've got to get tokens, Dave's book, paperback for my aunt, calendar for Shirley Mm . cos there weren't much good in They were miserable in Debenhams. erm, Debs been completed. Mm. Bookshop Jackie, paperback, erm, Marks & Sparks slippers and Marg, Marg tights. Mm. Biscuit barrel Maureen winter tights did Maureen is it?, I've got Marg, it's Maureen isn't it? Mm Shall I keep it in my pocket, its a lot easier Is this finished with? Thank you, yes. . And that, thank you. And that one, look, you can have them all. A heavy cold will stop me doing them justice It is really busy though So is Jackie spending Christmas on her own or you don't know? No, I think that there'll probably go down to the mum and slept there I was gonna say that , was they made, have they made friends where they are? No. No. There aren't any people where they are. Aren't there? Well, there are next door neighbours, who I think are very nice, but I don't think that Jackie and Ned got a lot in common with them that's,tha that's one house that adjoins them and then a little further on, its a lane, its about as wide as this Brenda. Oh, well why'd they moved? What, what area is it? Its called Fen, Fen Lane . and its in between Creeping St. Mary and . And how far is it from you? About erm, between ten and fifteen minutes drive I suppose, ten minutes perhaps. Oh it's not far No. does she still do her kitchen job? Yes, and she phoned me and she said I feel as though I dropped out of the bottom of the world she said, you know, I just don't see anybody, I said well of course you were working on Mondays, you see she used to have Mondays to herself and I would often go round on a Monday afternoon and, we, we could talk, but that's gone and I said I can't run in at half past five when you get home from school and chat to you because Ned will be coming home at six and I don't want to be there all that often when he's there erm its you know, its just happened and I also thought to myself and I'm probably going to move a lot further away then Fen Lane. But she doesn't, I mean she doesn't bother that much now does she? No. I mean I think it counts that she's not To tell you the truth Brenda, I'm very sorry for her because I think that she and Ned have made a really a quite ferocious mess of their life, they've never intended to be slaving away to be doing kitchen fitting, he wanted to do wood sculpture that was he's idea in And slow down a bit you was yes, yes , he's on the gallop and looks very old and worn Does he? Mm and she never wanted to return to full time teaching, its, its for her that she's got a job that she's very good at and she enjoy, in an extremely nice school. . such as it is if she is , no, I have to go to the a loo or something get some paper, I shan't worry about them, such a . . Oh bless you, thank you very much, I knew I had a I don't forget Mm, mm. and Jackie's that's right, and who knows that when we go into Smiths in Woking it might not be so busy Busy we might see something for Yeah Jackie, mm Got your seat belt on? Yeah. It's only two o'clock. Amazing. Yeah. No, but I really feel like going back and putting my feet up and chatting to you a bit more, cos we haven't chatted enough have we? No, well we've got the bulk, we were only going to be in Woking an hour. Yes, we haven't chatted enough . Well you try telling the, the er tape deck. , oh. You really feel, I mean with really sort of put into it and really done well haven't we? Oh, I couldn't have done a quarter of it. And I get on less than two people Yeah. and that's it. I think I've done a quarter of it I I'd dithered, and I'd got tired and I'd gone off and been Think oh well I come back I can't . That's right do it again, oh I have another go at it. Oh I could have spent the whole week, I just, I just, I could of spent five afternoons in Ipswich, would of done or Norwich Mm, I think I would of done cos I, I work at the, cos a couple of weeks ago I thought I'd go, I'll make an effort, I thought I think it makes a very big difference knowing that the Yeah without having to think too hard. and you still you make sure you, I mean, you know, all, that what I've spent Oh it was well It's got everybody. Yeah, its within your budget and you've done well, I went over budget, but then I expected I would, because for one thing I was buying for more. Yeah, cos you had, you, I mean none of us realised you had thirty to odd to buy No . I don't think you really realised really did you? I didn't, but I remember when you said that, that last year when I counted up Its fifty odd , I think fifty three With the er , erm, was it years before that I've had something like forty or thirty five Yep in, what you might call quite years But those, some of those calendars in Smith with two pounds off were lovely Mm. and the ones we saw at Marks and all that, were nothing were they? Well it pays to tramp around you see the problem with Jackie and Len has always been that they cannot believe that you can get things in a place like W H Smith that will, that will do very nicely as a Christmas present, they tend to go always to the top of the Well it doesn't pay just,queue up doing anything You know, they, they yes, yes they go to the Madechie shops and Athena or whatever and there looking at the best, and you can't afford it See Maryann and Richard are given up on erm buying Christmas presents because she says your buying things for people they don't really want, everybody , therefore I think tokeny things are the best, and that's what I've bought this year. And is that what you Tokeny things is that what she's doing? there buying disposable presents, like giving theatre vouchers and erm I don't know what else, but she said disposable's things that people can have some fun with Good idea isn't it ? Mm and what I'm giving is just something nice in the spirit of Christmas, but it hasn't broken my bank or my back Thing is the how these people go week after week after week looking for a bargain, I mean,Christm , I mean we picked up some bargains today, but how you can go week, I mean its ok, yes, why your but when your Christmas shopping you can't No , no you can't Because its just so, I mean that C & A it was the same as the it was Mm, mm, mm it so claustrophobic yeah look at this traffic coming in now I think the way we did it, we marked down the three shops we wanted to do Mm and you make, we just do those three shops Yes , yes I don't think that on our next buy, what with the next year I would be a bit better off in the sense that I should have sold my house, bought something cheaper and have some capital invested so I have a little extra monthly income, I should be living in somewhere that's cheaper to run You don't know, you might end up with this chap your with. Oh I wouldn't marry him Bre , I wouldn't marry anybody Brenda No, but you might live with him Don't know don't know don't know and then yes you can buy a smaller house even more so then. Well I would I, I mean I kept to keep my own But whatever your , your in it, and look after it, yes, erm well I don't think I'll ever again buy expensive Christmas presents in the way that I did in the past. No. Spending forty and fifty pounds ahead on don't it? Mm, yeah. Like your just tracksuits and Yes , no I can't erm, I can't think of myself as doing that again. I agree, its, its like those their lovely little things, don't think of buying, it's not very fair cos I mean,Mar , I mean I'd be over the moon if someone bought me one of those bags. Yeah. You know, but, people don't, they think oh know there only one twenty five and they can't buy someone that Mm. cos its not wro not the issue of it is it? No , no it isn't go home Yesterday we bought , yeah And that . Where?, my goodness I think that's a good idea there isn't a bet there be a real seller those boxes they, I know they call them the Oh yes. You had to buy a box then the tissue paper Oh no then the bow the time consuming, getting it all in. I think all I would do is just to wrap it up bow, yeah, buy some of that cheap stuff Yes. and curl it Mm. display it on the top she saved on wrapping papers and the bows want to get some petrol, have to get some get some what did you ask in Guilford to what, why you asked for B H S about? , erm do you think erm It'll come to me I don't know how many of those tops you've got on? Green one I've only got this one, I had a cream one and it got wrecked by going, I think Neil put it in the wash with one of his black tee shirts, and Did it came out all purple bluey Its really top. it is, its very soft and easy to wear and. Now, erm, should buy a couple more of them if you see them. Well I don't know, erm, They warm? they are warm, er, but its colour, I don't know whether I perhaps I, if I saw cream again this year I might buy it, but erm, I'm not sure that I want erm there's this deep red, because I've, I've bought a red one in a different style, same sort of fabric, its very do you remember?, when I bought that black and white checked skirt I bought a red Oh yeah blouse yes, but the sleeve, the sleeve trying to get it together and I would of got it together if I for being nice Of course he does Doesn't listen to a word I say, like, the women's no good cos I told some things about which would really made yet more of his hair fall of the top of his bald head, I said I said look, a working women needs a working man to help support herself and her children, I said, er no, nobody is going to be able these days, a woman not going to be able to support herself on twenty hours a week, which is what Karen does, putting out bread in the Asda. Is she the original one then? She's the original one She's not the one that was coming round with the baby? no, it was Michelle that was coming round with the baby right and I found two pairs of Michelle's knickers after that, I didn't know what , now I don't know how they manage this year because, she was coming round in the day with little Donna with her and I was around, there you are, you see, these, they, they will love and find a way, anyway, erm, I said dear look, a woman needs a man to support her I said mark my words when the chap that she's got at the moment is taken her out to disco's and things, she'll find that he doesn't really want to kick in and help to support her. I said she, she might well come back to you I said she's tried to keep you on a string just in case she didn't land the next dish he looked horrified, you know, as far as he's concerned its all love and glamour. How come she took him back then, they didn't want ? Well I think that she was trying to keep him dangling so that she had somebody to fall back on if she didn't land another man. He wasn't Why she's landed was she playing around with another man She is now , she is now yes, she's now carrying on. What did he do? Erm his sleeping she's told him that she's got this other man Cos I can remember him saying before he used to drive round to spy Yes, well there is another man and she's told Paul frankly she's lapping up the attention, he's taking her out for meals and their having a good time together you know, why its great, but as soon as he's paid for, for the goods and got, got the goods, the chaps going to go off looking for another. yes, he doesn't want to stay with her, but I've told Paul that if he goes back to Karen and take some of his things out, then he takes all of his things out and himself and he never comes back Just er, he can't keep on I've had this twice and each time its been, its been other people, because his got a lot of goods people's belongings out of one cupboard into another and the second time round there's been purgatory because he brought Karen's house, her hoover and the saucepans and everything that was his, everything that belonged to him but he said that before, I said why was Michelle able to jumped in between him and Karen, he said well Karen had been getting moody, and he said Karen was getting bored, Paul is boring, she's told Paul that his boring boring. No, cos I could imagine Paul sort of being quite a homely chap He is. if he gets the right sort of he is if someone that could put up with his sort of quite reservation yes cos he likes to chat yeah and yes. but I mean He's a pleasant enough chap he is, that's it yes, but he is not erm a playboy, he's not going to spend money on like Pete was forever buying Pam cheap jewellery from Ratners and rubbish from that nature. Did he ever get back with her? Well, she tells me that she is going to throw Shaun out because Shaun is boring, er, Don put her, Shaun she has no respect for she says because he hasn't got a job, he won't get a job, he won't work, and she said to Lee what did I think of the idea of taking Pete back, once they were properly divorced take Pete back just as a lover and I said that sounds to me to be a very good idea, I said then your not at his mercy because anybody who's at Pete's mercy will suffer, his got a very nasty streak, his got a nasty snide way of putting things. Has he? Oh yes, nasty. But his, he, is he, he's quite fond of her isn't he? Oh he adores her, oh yes he wants her back, and I said, she said, I, you see, I know him, I said there's a lot to be said for a chap that you know inside , know his ways and know how to cope with them, but I said never ever put yourself at his mercy, I'm marrying him, and the house will be hers, you see, when there properly divorced it'll be in her name so if he starts coming the old soldier, she can bung him out. Did she bail herself out in the end with over her money situation? Well I, I went guarantor for that. Oh you hate, did you have to pay the money, cos you had No, no she managed, I told her on pain of death not to tell Pete that I was backing Mm erm cos otherwise he would of sat back and said oh Jean can pay that. that's right. But she knew that in the last resort if he did I would do it, but he's, he's paid off now as soon as he'd paid off he went on the dole again I don't think quite He's quite a gipsy you know, he looks like a gipsy, did you meet him? No, we never met him. Oh plausible rogue. My god, look at the queue to get in the car park. Forward, is it?, no. There Oh your going right oh yes you haven't got, your right, no, I thought perhaps that hooting was er What's he waiting? you don't need to wait. No, somebody got No I've met, I've never sort of come across him. You might yet. But you said he was sort of gypsyfied. Oh yes. See this is the new Alders. Mm , should of gone to the one the offices up by Woolworths Is that a or, or one that you happen to know off? Well it's just that office of car park, I normally use it Oh. I usually don't come into the Mm, mm . But I just thought as we want Smiths and Intersports Mm, mm its this end rather Yeah than walking all the way from Woolworths. Yeah I think a cup of tea don't you? Mm, do you want one? We'll see how Well we'll see how we go. I don't think I've got anything more to get actually except a Book that's all for Jackie. If I see it. Dave's book. Dave's book, yes I'm sure that's going to be straight forward, book for Jackie not quite so straight forward . I don't know though, I mean I'd, actually I don't think I'd get a book for Jackie because I will be honest with you she has so much reading to do for her English teaching and drama Oh, I've got to take you in the Chinese shop Ah remember you haven't been in there yet have you? No. The Japanese shop. Ah . Oh its fantastic, I bet you buy something in there. Ah . They , they just do, its only round the corner and I remember last time I said I'd take you and I didn't. No, that's right, that's right Oh its lovely cos the girls in there Mm with her that's Chinese isn't it and the kimono for the Japanese and her a a sash Was the round the middle? yes, it's yes and they wear a sort of like a back thing on the back, is that Chinese? Oh yes , that's, that's Japanese. Yeah Japanese shop I think it is. Mm. Oh, but they do some beautiful things in there. Mm And my, my other favourite shop I love in Woking is the Birthday Shop Ooh. they do like, erm, ever so unusual thing, you know, lovely pencil sharpeners and rubbers and there all sort of like Mm ten and twenty p things, but ever so unusual like there might be an ice cream co , all fun things there all How nice there all, lovely shop white envelope No upside down you got it, that bit goes underneath the lip. That goes underneath the lip, I though I'd done that. No, no. Ah that bit goes under, ah. . Be curious to see what this like when it's all finished though Oh could of gone there, didn't see that one. Yes. God it's so dark and miserable isn't it now?. Yes . Just gonna wait for that space Normally I'm lucky to get round here. Mm Oh,there must be coming come on love, shut the door I'm a bit dubious because of her Mm, mm. being there. Mm Where do you want to put that? I need some How much do we need,got a pound . . Right, good idea. It's easier. Yeah. Well, the thing I mainly notice when last week when Paul was home, not last week, the week before last I had Paul solidly at home, he moved himself entirely in lock, stock and barrel at the weekend, he was then with me waiting for his job and he went out every day and did little bit's of shopping for me, got him from under my feet, saved me money, cos I was only buying what I absolutely needed, and the amount of time that I had, I mean I was able to go out for the whole day with Peggy on Wednesday, I was able to get food prepared and, admittedly I didn't manage to get as much done as I thought I was going to do, but then I think that's with most people in life, Mm. but, not to have to drag out in the car to the solar and buy food in the supermarkets Oh it's wonderful . Oh it was glorious I made a note to myself actually, that I'm only going to go out once a week for a proper shop, from a list, in the solar and the rest of the time I'm going to go to the quite expensive little Robber's Roe, round the corner from me. Mm, I haven't been shopping this weekend. You can't. We go one, you know, if I I just make do with what we've got. Well yes, I do a lot of that, mm, yes. I'm booked tomorrow because I'm going to Blackbush at seven o'clock in the morning Mm. Oh my god, there's remembering things, erm I'm hoping to , ok I don't, I don't want to go you know it's too early Mm, mm. cos I'm going as a favour to give her a lift really. Yeah, yeah I hate people who park on the ramp and causes to put yourself to a hill start, they are a Joy of a, joy of a The automatic, yeah. automatic, yes. Yes. Neil of course is doing the male macho bit, oh yes it's, all very nice driving the automatic, but I like gears really, yeah. I like the automatic when it's a, your on hill's like this. Oh yes. Gerry was taught to drive in nineteen forty six in the States, where they, they gone, they'd gone over to total automatic, and he despised manual gears, thought they were a ridiculous waste of time and effort, said you want to concentrate on the, on the road, not on the car, but then you see Gerry improved himself, he was a Look at the queue to get in there now. yeah, he was a Squadron Leader he was Squadron Leader, being engaged in combat he done the lot, he didn't need to prove that he was male. with our parking and aren't we? Trouble with . Yeah. I've gotta, I think people are so un-organised with Christmas, you've got to be organised, you've got to say like, you know, I'm only going to those shops, you know, if like like now, say so we went in Boots Like , yeah. for ten minutes. Yeah, erm, also, erm, But I think we could of gone down to British Home Stores, but we both probably would have spent more, than, Oh, but we did get everything . But we got , we got what was on our list. Got something for everybody now. And that's it, you've done your bit. And once you've done that, you've got spare time and spare money you can buy extra, but come, come down to it Brenda, once the Christmas Day is over That's it. does anybody remember particularly what they were given, or make a great deal about it, of a meal of it, unless you've given them something absolutely outstanding like a fur coat, I remember the fur coat I was given in Or a car . Well exactly. That's it. Oh god that money gone right on some old man, they are the worse you know . Young pulled right the way across and the traffic lights were obviously red. Ah, perhaps a beginner No, I think it's just, look,down there Mm. No, now look at that lot, in that trolley that us . God in heaven Get some petrol, go home and have a cup of tea, that gives us about an hour Mm. Sort out and Mm. to have a chat Yeah. that's all and, alright,. We've only gone through six tapes today. Yeah. , it's quite good. Marvellous, it's When we went to John Lewis's in, in High Wycombe, they got some cheap fabrics on in lace or, or fine material, and you know I very much now regret not getting some, because I want to dress up, remember I had a, a lace cover, a fitted lace cover on my kitchen table Mm. in one of the bedrooms a lacy do you remember that? Erm. Had a fitted cupboard full. Sneezing like an oar Mm Four star petrol, fifteen quid that costs. I know. I only blooming put ten quid in it on Wednesday. Yes, oh. . That's why I'm so thankful that I'm on the reading and that I like sewing, I like walking and I've made some very nice friends within easy walking distance, I can go out and have a coffee with them, because I, while I'm recovering from the agony's of from the finance That's right. I can do all those nice things in Jan, Feb and March, and not to mention when I get home tearing my garden to pieces, that's gone to pot , which is as well, because it doesn't make it, see, see one thing I find about coming down here, I see the really smarter shops than I would unless I were in Norwich and it makes me realise still after this , I don't crave for the things in shops. No thing is you know the shop's don't you? And you can normally get what you want Yes, yes , yes . I won't be the only person from East Anglian that's come down to London over the weekend to shop,to stay with relatives or friends and take advantage of London's shopping. Were the trains busy coming down? Oh yes, it's a busy line, always. Oh There's an extra Yeah a lot of people do that, they, I mean, go on the train shopping don't they, I know a lot of people who are and I would rather sit ten minutes or twenty minutes . Yes, I, I mean you can't carry all You can't keep carrying the shopping that's right. I mean, that was getting heavy what we had. Oh yes it was . You know , imagine it if you had to carry it all around,going, doing the shopping doing the lot Mm. like we did Mm. I mean you've got to stop and think I can't carry any more . And when that's right , but when, when we went on our clothes buying jaunt, we could go back to the car We could go back to the car that's it in the boot . you can't go, you know I mean lugging that around, I this is what put's me off London this really Yes, yes. . Well the only, my next visit to London will be for fabric from Liberties Liberties, you like to go up there for that don't you? Yes, yes That always , twenty pounds a week . But I say to . Perhaps it's got an unhappy go line, you know, a lot of people do jobs like that to get away from under the heat of a task . Not me on my shopping trip. Could be . I bet they don't . No, I don't like that, mm so you obviously help each other Yeah. sort of what you want and what you don't want Yeah. which is really sort of really sort of Bet you organise your bag, see what else you've got to put in. Mm. Did you, have you find that bag? Oh it's perfectly all right, oh no problem. . Oh, I think you've still got some room haven't you? Some what dear? Some room on the top. Oh plenty, plenty. Right that's got to go on top then, if you'll un-zip it, that's right , didn't I? Oh this has got two zips. Oh that's good. Mm Bought a . How heavy is it? Oh, it's not the, not the heaviness I can hardly somehow. I can see the point of the second zip now, I think, I think it's where you padlock it. The keys are inside aren't they? Yes, I mean I'm not going to bother, but I think, I think you padlock the one, the end of that zip is, I'm not sure, er Neil will know It saves you having a holdall , organise it more to heavy if we put that in there, right, what about, will they fit in the bag? Yeah, I think there's isn't there in there really?plain white bag I'm going to hopefully put out in there to protect that, those groups I don't know why that suddenly can fall up side down, but it's alright. , right, hold them then, stand up, put . yes. Christmas tree. There's no weight to that, I mean I've got my That bag. handbag and that bag, Christmas tree can go there, that can go there and I just about be able to make it Brenda, just about be able to make it Bag and your nightie. Yeah, yeah tea, tea. Actually there's not a lot, of weight, of weight there is there, there is No it's bulk. it's bulk,, it's on the window sill on the Mm, mm, oh, oh right, ah , oh there it is yes fine, yes thank you dear. Erm Yes, I want to leave early tomorrow, because I'm, I'm not going to rush for a train, I don't want to be caught thinking oh the last train to Stow Market goes at four o'clock and I've got to run for it I got to be prepared to miss the train. That's right, you can't, you've got to go No rushing. So, you, will take you to the st oh she don't drive does she? Well I can get a taxi easy enough, there's plenty of them god knows. The only thing your gonna have, you might find a bit awkward if you've got to car stair, carry up stairs. Mm, yeah, well, there again, if I leave early I can take it all in my stride can't I? Just ask the porter would you help me carry it over to the next platform. Mm, yeah, yeah I think there more willing to do that than they used to. I think they will, the fact, you know, your in the train and you know it's , Mmm they see you sort of struggling so you can just do it can't you ? Mm, mm, mm, mm ah tea. I'm shattered aren't you? . You go to bed as soon as, I don't know where they are, because Dave is meant to be getting home at eleven o'clock this morning. is he? Unless there still out, he's probably fare up by now. Mm I think you did good timing today. Excellent. Brilliant. Mm, mm, we seemed to have wasted no time. We haven't, I mean we . We didn't have to queue for food we waited five minutes to get into the car, we didn't have to queue for food or coffee, we ke , we didn't even get into very long lines too pay. No. But what's it going to be like next weekend Brenda? It'll be murder. Mm. Absolute murder, and I just thank god I haven't got to go amongst it. Quite. Because er we've done sort of I must Where did I write that if I've lost that list, I suppose to keep Erm, Ron, tin and then you've got hankies didn't you? Mm and who else did you get the two hankies for? Erm, one, one set for Paul and one for Neil, P for Paul and the coloured's for Neil. Where'd you get paper rope from? Erm, shop like the birthday shop in Woking they do it, the birthday shop erm, not expensive, I know in Kingston that shop next door, what's that then The Christmas tree decorated only with silver stars cut out and bows made out of paper rope, you cut the paper rope and just tie up the bows. Mm. What could be more quicker and easier and more effective than that? That's it, yeah what else did you get today? You got Shirley I got the calendars, and Marg wasn't it,book plus the calendar Erm,who was the other calendar for? Marg wasn't it? Yes, cats. Marg and didn't I get cats for both Shirley and Marg? Yes. Kittens Calendar, erm no, what about you were going to get the thick tights, but what did you get her? Book. Maureen. Mm. Maureen, book the only thing you didn't get today Mm. was the slippers for Terry. Right, well I'll have one upon er Norwich Mark's and try to get the Christmas tree, Terry's slippers, tins of biscuits, no I'll go into Ipswich with you for the biscuits, I'll see if that what Ipswich Mark's has produced. Have erm that was the list Marg, Maureen you got, Dave you got, yeah you'll, I'll give you the list of what you've got, you gonna get, three tins of biscuits, your son and neph a bottle of booze, and Terry's slippers, that's all Mm, mm. and the two grand children, whatever, oh the money. Mm, mm, yeah. Or erm, tokens. Mm, yeah. And there all sort of things you can just go in and get, isn't it there's no bulk. No problems, no. Let me write those lists cos there be hard to, hard to read . Wha wh are you gonna, are you gonna give Marg's present now or? I don't know, no. You haven't made up your mind yet, see how you feel you might decide to just, you've got to hump through it all Mm, quite. Might be bit of a pain, might'n it? Might oh dear, dear, dear, dear too much to take in huh. I know there advertising it on the T V Mm. that's why they were getting all that brochure, that's what you want to do next time, you wanna get er, all the different Christmas brochure's Mm. and then you sit down and go through all what books are out and Mm, mm Cos I think it's got everything possible, cos I want, say I want a door reef Mm. But I, I want to make it but I'm, I haven't a clue how to make it. No do I, but . Yeah. so much here. I think it's a book that just last's for life in it? Yeah. Do you ever get, find out who had your book with those sleeping bags in?that was naughty wasn't it? It was, it was very bad because it was a distinctive book, somebody knows that it's my book. Yeah. Cos you even leant, those days had your labels you put on yours. Mm, yeah, yeah. I wouldn't have thought there was honestly not. I think that is a lot of infection about and I know what brought on my cold, it was going out with Mark to Lathenham, and instead of wearing my anorak I only wore my lambs wool throw over, and I got jolly chilled coming out of the car and going into Lathenham church. You do, you got, Lee the other night, it's like Lee last Monday, went on the work experience and Monday night it all came down it's pouring, oh it's alright he says, were only going to go to the Woking Mm. that's what I just register, that's why he want's the cash point. Oh yes. He went with James to get the cash point Mm, mm. and erm, James said you not going out in this surely, yeah, yeah, it's only a bit of rain and he come home and he was drenched right the way through top to bottom Oh , mm, mm. and Dave said, and there you are, that's why you've got a cold. Mm, mm. No it's not, he says but, they can't be told. Well there's a shirt and tie in the bag in Lee's bedroom Mm. but that's it. Mm. No, no suit or, or anything else, unusual that Dave didn't leave me a note. Mm, mm, yeah there you are my dear, really interesting. I'll have a look at it later when you've gone . Oh, oh, oh, oh, Can't sleep at Marg's? Oh. How many cats has she got? Well she's only got two, but she entertains about five others. Does she? Mm, they all come and visit. Is she, is she gonna move or does sh , cos she was thinking of moving She's talked about going to Yorkshire, but, not at the moment, there's nothing much doing in the market, er. Who is, is there, got a family at Yorkshire or? Mm. Got family Marg has got is eh, in Rotheram, she's got an aunt and a cousin That she keeps in touch with? Oh yes, yes she does, but, that's about all she's got two cousins, that's right, and one of them's married and got children and she used to have in the north, the great friend Sylvia from school days and Sylvia would of been one of the first Anglican Deacons to be ordained as a, as a priest Yeah. she was doing so well in the church and she died of cancer. She had cancer and it was cured and they, you know, they said, well were pretty certain that your clear but I'm afraid you've got to wait five years, four years and six months after they said that, it hit her again and she died. Oh god, it's awful in it? Mm, mm, it is. And is it Marg the one who had the friend in America, or was that Jacky? That's right, That's her, who killed, who killed herself, yes, committed suicide . That's right , god. Yes. So what erm, so what does she do at Christmas then? Goes up to this aunt. Oh goes up to this aunt. Yes. Oh, how does she get up there, Train, train and taxi's. Does she come up to you? Yes, she comes up by train. Has she never wanted to learn to drive then? No I can't understand women that haven't learnt to drive, can you? No, I can't, I really can't . Because there's always been an opport , I mean even if your sort of poor, there's always the opportunity, I mean I learnt to drive and then the driving instructor erm, lived next door to my mother saying, it, at the time it should of been three pound and erm, he let us have it for two pound Mm, mm. I mean that was what, twenty one I was, so, thirteen years ago Mm, mm. erm, and it's about what twelve pound now, eleven pound? Er I paid thirteen pounds, ninety. Yeah, god. You might well say. How many years, I mean, that's in thirteen, that's a pound a year, it's gone up. Mm, mm. Good god it's a lot of money in it? It is. But even the test is dear isn't it now on the actual day. Seventeen I think it is, seventeen, I'm not sure. I thought it was more than that. Maybe, maybe more, perhaps it's seventeen with the provisional licence. But you may reckon that anything to do with But that was a pound . I know. , but wasn't it free when you had it? Was it No. No, it wasn't, you had to pay. Mm. I know with mine it was a pound and, I renewed mine for two years, well three years I think I never drove, I just wanted to have a provisional, but now, I think like if someone said it was fifteen or seventeen Mm, mm, mm , yes I think it's seventeen. I don't know if that's, what's that to stop encouraging the children just to buy it. No, it's the general audacity of the tax system, which was to, to ripe money of us so that it can give us we can spend our money on rubbishing layabouts. Mm. I mean, deserving cases like Neil who as he says only want to be taught, get next to nothing, but it seems to me that people like your sister Jane and Trevor get given the earth. Well it, well something's wrong somewhere isn't it? I think so. And then They shall never know what. There's the systems oh I, I told you didn't I Jane got eh reported. No. Cos erm, apparently erm Trevor was working for Bettaware for Avon and they had the Social Services round to say that I hear that your working and they do toy parties and they said no, I mean there not making a living out of it, it's was just No. you know . The odd few pounds yes. And erm they said well you've got to come off it, you know, were not going to do you this time, but you've got to come straight, stop doing it all, erm, cos you've been reported and your on the Social Security. Hard pushed, well she said she went through all the books on the Council, and there wasn't one in the South Mm, mm. Want's a transfer, there was hundred's of people on the list to try and get this way, I mean it's like this women who took Jane's house, to swop Jane, she didn't even come and look at Jane, she said yes I'll have it Oh. in the south, whatever it is, I don't care what it is. Oh. She had this big house Jane's got and she went down to Jane's small house Mm. She just wanted to get in this area. Mm, well I can quite see that this maybe the only way that I can help Neil. Peterborough, I mean is nice, certain parts, Mm. but this part Jane's in I mean it's just the pits Oh. you know, I mean, the kid's haven't got a, oh it's just like a glorified Council estate it's like Oh dear. , but twenty size bigger. Oh gosh, can't bear think of that. I know, it, you know rot cars set alight, oh Mm, mm. dreadful it is, and there's no erm, I mean no hope for the kids Mm. and she said er, and I said, I said Dave said you were a bloody fool to go up there, you let mother talk you into going, Terry had a job here, he, alright you had your house, you had your ups and downs, it was a bit small, you persevere with it, I said your kids are nearly going to school all of them, so I said, you don't need a big house No, no. and I said alright so what you've got to struggle for five or six years, everybody else, join the club Quite . and erm, but they can't, they just can't except it Mm, mm. and erm, she said oh well you know, were gonna try, and then, and then, I said well what about Elly she said, well she, she, I said swop with Elly, but she's only got like a two bedroom Mm. and I said yeah, but then if you swop you might be able to swop with somebody else Mm, mm. erm, but I said there again Elly's not going wanna be stuck up there on her own if your down here. No, no, quite, ah. And it's like a viscous circle all the time between us my, I don't know what all become, apparently erm, mother is erm, cos I said you know, you all going to mother's at Christmas and they said oh no she's talking about going away. Oh. I said yeah, nobody bloody want's us do they, that's why. . They all realised they've got there own life to lead Mm and that she will not let them call their soul their own. well it's like Elly, you know, I mean even she said she's, I can really see, she said I even said it in an argument the other day, cos none of them could see at the time Mm. why have you broke fre free Mm. she said, I, she said she never spoke to me last week, for four days Mm, mm, mm. I said well she's got you up there now that's why, I said and they fact now do wrong she's fed up looking after your kid. Mm, mm. And she said, but I didn't realise how somebody erm, could change that much Mm, mm. must oh she's like Jekyll, Jekyll and Hyde. Mm But I don't know, I honestly don't know what become of, become of that women I honestly don't, I mean she's sixty now. Mm She know that and she just seems to be like a vicious circle all the time, I mean she doesn't, I mean just getting deeper, deeper into debt. Yes. What's the extent of her indebtedness now? Bloody lot. Is it, erm Bloody lot, I mean she's got every, I think credit card out that she can possibly have Mm. and well over the, yeah I mean your talking about not four or five hundred pound, your talking about thou thousand, fifteen hundred limit Mm, mm. erm, cos she's sort of gone, like she would of gone today gone in there Mm. gone, say she had a limit of eight hundred and think oh well I'll do some more shopping oh can you up it another three or four hundred Mm. of course you might of done that two or three times in a week. Mm, mm. Thing is like that when you spend money like that, your unhappy. Oh yes. Very unhappy. Oh yes, no question of. Because the fact is there's no, no cause or need for the , for the trips No , no, no. I mean my car trips are sort of special trip Yes, absolutely. but I mean to say, to do it everyday Oh pointless, get no pleasure from it Worth, well you, you get no pleasure out of it no erm, well it just, it just, you know, with her, I mean, she can't sit still, I mean to have, I mean I, the last four Saturdays, admittedly I haven't been well, but I've just been totally indoors sewing. Yes, yes exactly. you know Yes. and that's, what I wanna do next, take them, to take me old curtains down and gonna re-make them for Lee's bedroom. Mm, mm. Those black one's fit? No, erm, they weren't quite right. They weren't quite right for the room. No, but, there lovely black, there's one pair of black and white curtains that's hardly been used, there jet black with a white stripe, I thought I would make Ron , a lovely, cook's apron, hello Hello, Hello Jean alright? Hello Jean how are you? Alright. Where've you been? Oh you've got it, did you get the suit? Yeah. . No. . Have you been to the hospital? No, I left him over there. Erm. I didn't drop him off till about twenty past, twenty five past ten. Oh, well where's the suit then? . Is he charging you? Yeah. I could of No you couldn't right, see Why? You Why what . I'm talking. Where did you buy it from? Erm Profile. Yeah, where is Profile then? I saw the bag on his bed. Erm Must be a new shop in it? Do you know, I'm trying to think, is it up on the hill? . In Guilford? Yes . on that corner? Mm. That Bernie shut down? That's next door to him in he? Yes. Right on the corner? Yes. Oh, I thought it was Mr Howard's. It was, but . Did . Well we were start off there and , he wanted that one, he tried it on. What's he look like? Quite nice. What colour is it? Er a light green colour, colour . Green, didn't he want to go for grey? Sorry? Didn't he want to go for grey? No, it looked quite nice actually. Is it a double one or? Double breasted. Double breasted, mm, how much? No, I ain't telling ya. No, don't. . Have you had a Christmas day . Wonderful. Yes, very good. Still, still stuff in the shops, go to Guilford or ? No , erm We went to Guilford. . Yeah, we went in three shops and cleared the shops out. Yeah, yes, got the lot. believe that. Everything what we needed. Almost everything. And we were back in Woking by quarter past, twenty past two, we did two shop's, video shop for Jean, the for Neil and Boot's and then to sports and then back home, we got home about quarter too four. Mm. All done, were having a cup of tea before I drop Jean at Marg's. . Nigel just been round. How is he? It's alright. I said to him it's all alright, he said oh I thought it would be, it's that sort of, sort of if you find that temperature's too hot you just turn it down. I think that's alright though any thing too hot . Yeah, no it was fine. What do they all . But that's how it goes on and off, it clicks on and off all the time. I know the heat is, but why the water weren't coming out. Mm, perhaps it was a slight block blockage in the . Had a good day at Tesco? Bet he didn't pay eight nine pounds for that suit in that Profile No. . When's the suit gonna be ready then? Er, would be ready for this Wednesday, but I said it'll probably be Saturday that we pick it up. When's it gotta be, what the jacket or the trouser's got to be altered? Little bit of the trouser's taken in the waist. Taken in? Only a little bit yeah, and a little bit on the bottom and also a slight bit on the cuff's of the coat but er, it looked quite nice it did. He's trousers were actually to long? Not a lot, but He likes it long. you can't tell, he wouldn't wear a shoe would he? So I said to the bloke in the shop have you got some shoes he can put , so they had to do it with his trainers on, but he's made them extra long cos he's trainer's is that much bulkier, so er, I said to , he can't do it . Did he get any shoes? No, I said if he waits till he get's the suit,pick it up I said then he can put the trousers on pop round to one of the . But he's gotta have shoes that cos, that he can wear with the suit and wear to school, cos he needs that school shoes, I saw the shirt and the tie. in it? Rather dear the shirt. I bet it was. Quite nice, I like that tie cos I said it . You share it. Yeah, I, I, even the shirt I'll fit me, tie . If you ever needed, needed a suit, you did that once before, but that's what you said if you could get a suit, would you wear it though? Yeah, it's nice Bet it's Even if he had shirt and tie on tee shirt on and a pair of trainers . Why didn't he wear shoes? Well you know what there like, try telling he's not to wear a coat, . Was there quite a queue, did you walk in or park in? Mm, I'll go back with him and he'll wear his bloody shoes when I go back with him, how much they charging you for the repairs? Twelve quid. That's the usual fee. That's not bad then. Not bad at all. That's hemming it, Mm. and the jacket. Take the trouser's up, take the trouser's in . Oh that's not bad is it, no. You know I've got a straight navy coat that I've hardly ever wore, I've discovered that it'll only cost eleven pounds fifty to have it shortened at Sketchley's, and it's all done . I mean you couldn't alter it , I mean you could, but the time it'll take you to get it right . Oh yes, I'd never get a professional job on that heavy cloth and all the so at some point that'll . So, is it quite big though the suit? Oh yes, thirty three and thirty eight, he tried thirty six That's not fitting. He's, he's not . I wasn't too sure at first if it'll fit him, but when he put the trousers on, when he put the trousers on first, I thought no, no way, but then when pinned them, you know, they I thought, I thought , but . Told him to go to grey though, cos grey won't date, green will. No, that , nice with a black jumper. Just a, the thing wear just a black sweater with it, the thing is now, he's gonna need it for the football matches in he, a suit? . Why didn't he go to, they've got a lovely Burton's in the precinct over there now. Didn't get that far. Yeah, there's a new one over there. I said we'll try this shop, I said at least have a look and I said we'll go round to the other's, I said he made he's mind up when he walked in,. I bet he had to get it from out the back did he? No. . . Just you remember when you get your Access at the end of the month then. . What time did you finish then? Er Oh what your both going to work at quarter to one tomorrow?has anything exciting happened today? No not really, short drivers Of course there all working now, it's in the paper's in it?. Oh yes, yes . There's a big sign at Camberley's, I don't know if you've noticed it, when we went to the cafe last night, big sign outside with big black writing, we are now open for trading ten till four on Sundays. Oh. Outside Camberley Oh is it? Yeah, great, great big like board. No, I didn't notice that . Didn't you see that , when we went to the restaur , no I went and got the cigarettes, that's where I saw it , yes, cos I, yeah. Oh that's where you see it , yes, yes. Great big sign on it, because people will, you know, I mean Tesco's when we went last night it was packed, no you probably didn't see it No, I didn't. but it was packed Is that because of the food price war? Are they still doing that, are they still trying to keep there prices down? They say they are Jean . Oh I dunno, they are . They, they put, we go to er, a little shop in , only a little shop and they have to got into er one at Croydon every Thursday, and he get's, the manager, he get's the er, driver's to come out of head office, and what staff, and he always buys it in bulk and he, he still buys say it's coca cola say it was ten pence a can Mm. He'll buy probably about a thousand cans Mm, mm. and then, that week, he sell's ten pence a can, then the following week he still bought it ten pence, following week it goes up to eighteen pence, but he's still selling what , so I don't think it, I think . But I still think Tesco's is the cheapest supermarket, I do, Waitrose is way over the top. . Yeah I know working, but I'm just saying there food. how do you think their Sunday trading? Got to Your joking. Seven days, thirty nine hours, thirty seven and a half hours . But it's chronic, it's not allowed. He's, he's a, he's a kid. About eighteen years old, and how they get round it, he's Supervisor. warehouse assistant manager Mm. so as soon as he comes, soon as Mm, mm. then he works the hours required. Mm. work seven days. That is, it is so wrong. Yeah, I mean it's alright for people like my son John, who's got a good salary. I was gonna say he's on about thirty thousands ain't he? Oh it must be probably more than that . Probably more than that , but that, he wouldn't mind if he had to do it. Well he does, he goes in on Saturdays very often, he goes in on Sundays very often, you know, goes up to have a look at a site or goes into the office to look over something in peace without the phone ringing all that's sort of thing, he puts in a lot of time that's not strictly accounted for, Gerry did, I did as a teacher, but then we were well paid. People who are on six and a half thousand a year. Mm, it . It, it, it's in the office. Roll on the common market day when the social dimension will stop that, it'll stop it in it's tracks, sheer exploitation that is. about the, what is, what the, the ladies, I told you, women who work nights at Mm. Tesco's, they sent a letter out to them, and er, cos there open over Christmas period, er I think some of the stores and the letter says we all get two days off, cos , and then like, they, they won't Christmas day , twelve o'clock new, Christmas Eve and twelve o'clock new Christmas Day, they twelve o'clock Disgusting. Disgraceful. Otherwise they said , I mean even with, they gotta do it . if they don't turn up they don't get paid for the Christmas and Boxing Day. Well . Sacked. Mm, mm. I mean most of them are only there cos there finding it hard with the mortgage. Quite, quite. Got them over, they, they said, they said they know they've got them over a barrel. Mm, mm. They, Tesco's is one of a lot of the firms, but you said there dreadful the way they treat their staff . Yeah , well Tesco's, Sainsbury's, Waitrose, all the same. Mm. When, when you walk in the front of the shop, it all look's nice, got out the back. Mm, mm But Neil he was gonna go down to Tesco's but he is, Ipswich, can't get down here,so he can't sort of travel and you know what the hassle of having to take him and pick him up. Can't, I can't do it. When he was first with me I could belt up about seven in the morning, but, recently I've noticed that I feel unwell if I get up and rush out . Yeah, but he could probably do a two till ten shift, but the two would be alright , but you wouldn't want to go out ten o'clock at night and pick him up. But, I, physically I can't do it, I, I've aged up in the last few years. Mm. My, my years have caught up with me you know. It's all very well keeping mentally flexible and all the rest of the who-har, but if you, er, my, my mother stopped and said to her many years ago, she said, you don't look your age, you don't act your age, you don't sound your age, you don't think your age, but you are your age, and this is absolutely true, as you grow older, nothing will stop the fact that your arteries get a little harder, so that, you know, that you get raised blood pressure quite easily if your agitated and you are, for some reason you, you have to puff a lot more, I was reading about this just recently, and these are changes that take place whatever you do, you can exercise, and you can take vitamins and you can keep your weight down, but you age. Age, I'll fight it . Well you can fight it, I do, but you don't win all hands down . Cos you see I've act . Yes, yes, but erm, you know, I have had to say to the chaps, one of them came in and he said he'd been spoiled down at the cedar and I said oh well, I, I've been cooking a breakfast for Neil of course by the operation of sods law, Neil suddenly goes off the idea of having breakfast, so I find myself cooking breakfast for this other lump, who is as idol and selfish as anybody ever met in all the born days, and I said to him just recently, I said, I, I can't get up and do breakfast's in the morning any more, well he says he come's down and does he's own,you see they can when they feel that they want too. Yeah, especially when it's cold and dark you don't want it, you can have an extra half hour in bed,. Well, it's, it's simple that if I got up at half past six, and took him up a cup of tea at quarter too seven, and when he was around at seven o'clock, I was grilling bacon and I was frying eggs, and I hope, I don't know whether perhaps it's my cold, but, I, I just used to feel terribly unwell after he'd gone, for about two hours and my legs were so wobbly, I was sitting down on the sofa, I may go back yet to cooking him breakfast if I feel like it, but, the, I mean if I can say to these chaps that, there are times when I don't feel like doing things, well, I reckon Dave that they are so glad to be in that house with the central heating, with the twenty four hour er, er a day water, and the comfort, there not going to argue. Yeah, that's right. Brenda Yeah. can I phone Marg? Yeah. Warn hear . How . Er, over on number seven 'B',. . No,. When you got to pick Carla up? Half five, I've got to do Jenny's ironing, oh there's loads of things I've gotta do never . They doom is upon the. What's he cooking? Chicken casserole. Ooh,. Very nice too. This is mine isn't it? Yes, that's your dish. This is my dish, yes. I leave it another ten minutes Jean, cos I yes , can drop you and then go yes , and pick Carla up save coming back unclear , and then going back fit it all in as they say. That's right. Yeah, I didn't finish my tea, I never do, so I'll, I'm going to do that now So you drop him at the actual hospital? Erm, this Jill, who is this, is this girl friend? Vicky's his girl friend and Jill the mum. Oh I see. But Vicky's now, she had erm anorexia the girl friend, she sort of got over it but then er hos , her mum and, oh it's all very confusing, mum and the boy friend been together for years, they've now split up, Vicky's now, it's all been sort of everything on top of her Mm. she's now got an ulcer, and there's some. Surely, can you, I mean. She's only fifteen, I mean I can't believe it, I . It's terrible. And erm, so of course, she's, you know, not been well for a couple of weeks and she's gone down from nine four, to seven stone. Lord. So they said last week there having her in and she's in till Christmas. Why can't people be happy. Why can't they be contented with what they've got? That's right, well I said to Lee, you don't half pick your blooming girl friends, he had that neurotic one up the road, didn't he? Mm. But this one I think he's not . He, it, it is, he gets on very well with her, I mean he only sees each other Yes, on a having , Saturday. having been through that experience with Helen, he'll be a lot more weary. Yeah cos he realise I mean, he often says oh well, you know, she made me turn against my family and be horrible and he says I haven't had time, he says I realise how wrong I was. Neil, Neil now says, that when he meets a girl, he, he waits to see if she's got any characteristics in common with the dreadful Vicky , the girl that he eventually fetch her much deserved slosh on the chops and was pulled into Ipswich Magistrates Court, you know, oh I shouldn't laugh, but erm, he says he looks for those characteristics, and the moment he sees that the girl is going to be this sort of neurotic, excitable, hysterical creature he walks away. I don't blame him. Yeah. Well I think Lee, he, he just realise, I mean I mean he only sees her once a week any way, doesn't he?but you know, she is, she is a lovely girl Good. but erm, it's like now, I mean there's no way she'll visit cos he's got too much homework in the work Mm, mm. and I mean he's tied up tomorrow. Mm, yeah. Erm,I said did you say your mum phoned up? No, I phoned her last night, she . bet that's Lee. She said to remember you to her. Oh how nice . . Why? Eh, she's not going now. You know what she's like, she's not go. I bet they've had beer all afternoon. She sounded as if she's had a few . What, what, where was she going to go tomorrow then? She's, doing one of these Bet . He get's so cross. Mm, yeah I know. He get's so cross , yes. I got a track suit today, cos he was so cross the other day when she come, but that's what, they've got the money, they've got no, no mortgage, there both work full time, she's got a brilliant job ain't she? They won't go sho , they do everything together Mm. but they, they won't, they took two days off last week and they sat indoors for two days, they've got a love , you know there fantastic couple, really fantastic , they'll do anything for you, but it's like Dave, Dave's always saying take up golf, go swimming Oh it's so sad , yes. you know, and, if like, she, she'll take all the grand children to the pantomime, but Dave won't go he's er, over at his dad, you know, he'll stay and have a sleep. Oh. You know, or, or potter about indoors, decorating or whatever won't he? But like Dave said you know, there's no, I said to her you gonna go out on those two days, I said got all your Christmas shopping, no, everybody will get money. It's . Yes, oh. That's what Dave said what we could do if we money, you know, all get a , you know you, like you, if you had a partner to do it, you wouldn't be stuck at home. Good god, no, well even without a partner, I stay stuck at home . . They've got no hobbies, no interests . I was , I was off on, on Sunday, I mean I've joined yet another marriage agency, off on last Sunday to Latherham, with another nice old chap, you know, erm, I, I go out with erm, women friends, we, I've arranged, er there's one very, very good place that does lunches, run by a couple of homosexuals and erm, old age pensioners on Tuesday get, get a lunch, an eight pound lunch, for four pounds, so four friends, three friends and myself are going for a special Christmas lunch that they do, fortnight ago we went for a lunch with the group of the town's women's guild and friends, erm, my women's group that I belong to over at the village of which is run by the television actress er Helen Fraser Mm, you get around you do . oh I do, it's , it's very humble it's very old ladyish, but it's, it's around, it is. There, there going tomorrow, what was it for? What is it tomorrow? He's coming over here tomorrow on a Sunday. Yeah, well they well they go up the Legion and have a couple of pints, go to the bookie and put some horses on, go home and sit in front of the telly watching horses like . It's not much is it? I mean alright, you can see mum's point in one respect, because she works nine till six every day. Yeah. No she doesn't have to work, but she, she chooses to work nine till six, I mean she just got her pension thing out didn't she? Mm. for sixteen, seventeen grand in a lump sum, put it straight in the bank Mm, mm. you know it's, they don't need the money. No. I mean, you know they could do, alright they have their holidays abroad don't they? They they could. , you know they don't, tomorrow, what was that in aid off? Jack's birthday. Yeah, and that was his brother who lives in London and they've invited him up, but she said she had a bad cold last night and wasn't feeling too good, she said I'm fine today, but she said we put them off. I say. You know they were going to have a meal out and Then they moan, they come over here and they moan oh . Same as the decorating though in it? Mm. Done nothing at all in their house, but since we've been here in doing this and that, every things been changed now in it? Mm, mm. He just sits g , he, he just, you know, it's, it's a waste Dave just sees it at because it's different if they were hard up Totally different. You know, but there not, there lovely, lovely people and they're do anything for you, but we say to them, you know, oh well life's boring and your know sort of, and, but, life hasn't got to be boring, when you've got no money wor worries life shouldn't be boring. Even when you've got money worries, life isn't boring. No. My poor old friend Ron , is worried about money up to his, up to his arm pits, but he manages to get out and play his violin, you know, two Saturday's ago I went up with him to Norwich to stay with his nice lady Trudy, and in the evening, Saturday evening, I went to the gorgeous old church in Norwich where he and the other's were all working away playing the Mozart Symphony or two. Mm, yeah, but the thing is I mean with Dave's mum and dad, I mean it's like, think, they have the odd weekend away don't they? Erm but I mean they went away a couple of weeks ago down to where Dave's brother was buried in Isle of Wight Mm. now they came back early cos the weather was a bit cold . You know, they stay, it was quite sweet really I suppose, but I mean, and Dave said that they I just wonder how many more people there are like them. They look, I mean talk about well, Dave dies, what about the security then? Bolt themselves in. Bolt themselves in, if someone knocks on the door, you know, it's sort of who is it Yes. and all the bolts and chains come off, you know. Yes. She lives sort of on a knife edge doesn't she? Mm. But they sort of, I mean I say, they love the kids and they love, you know, doing anything with them, but, they won't, and Dave said why don't you take, oh I'd love to do golf, and Dave says well bloody well do it, what's stopping you? That's right. Oh and we'd love to do swimming, erm, because we'd done as a surprise for Carla for Christmas cos I mean we said the kids are getting older now, Dave heard it on the radio, erm, for one fifty a head, erm they were opening Guildford's swimming pool erm, from ten till twe twelve? Yeah. On Christmas day. How nice. So Dave said well let's, you know, you sit and eat, and eat, he said let's get up Christmas present, have a couple of Christmas presents, going swimming ten till twelve, perhaps go for a walk over the common or something, Yeah, yeah. Put the dinner on low Mm. then come back and have dinner Yeah, lovely. which should be grate, because, he's mum, I mean we love her dearly, but she has to go to Lenny's in, dinner time and us in the evening every year Oh yes. so Yes. We've gotta sort of sit here, and I mean Mm, mm. you, you know, last year I invited Kim round, cos she, she didn't have, and this year I'm gonna ask her if she'd liked to come Yes, of course. Brian wouldn't come, did last year, I mean I don't know if the kids will come this year but I'll ask Kim, because the single fact it breaks up the conversation a bit, doesn't it, I mean Oh it helps, yes, yes. You know, but that is what Dave said, there highlight is every, like can we come over at six o'clock tomorrow. Yeah, yeah. That is there highlight, but and Dave, it's his only day off, he, he would rather, I mean he wouldn't say no, it's not, no Of course not. I mean the thing, they should know, I mean like Dave said every couple of weeks, but ev It's nice to see, it's like Christmas , when our kids are older we'll see pop in and visit them, but we won't ever year rang. We've got to come to you, like you do . Yeah, yeah . You know, like,cos it's,used to say now, I mean I'd like to, I would like to go away at Christmas Yes of course. work all year and if you can afford it, can't have a holiday in the year, say well come on kids your a bit older now Mm. let's go somewhere, where you can swim and that, but me mum,it's nice to have your family around you . You fill obliged. You are obliged. Yeah, yeah, I know, well my daughter in law, was practically down on the phone kissing me last year when I said look Myrie, wouldn't you like it this year if I didn't come to you, you know, she's done Christmas's for me, year in year out . she said, John and I would love to have a Christmas on our own, I think it . I think it effect they, I think they in fact invited there Their friends. her parents, but they, they don't have their friends, in fact I'm not sure that they did very much at all, I think that Myrie meant it when she said that what they wanted was the most peaceful sort of Christmas that you could possibly imagine, with no big teas, big meals or anything Or entertaining. Exactly wondering about what to eat . , six days a week, I mean it's like this year I mean he's going to be working, I'm working as well right up to Christmas Eve, so are you, his gonna have the Christmas Day and they want him back at work on the Boxing Night. Yes, quite. See he get's a day and a half off, I mean it's like we, I mean well this is why Dave said, he said do you fancy he said Said John, well, we've got other ideas we'd like you to come to us for Christmas, so I thought, as I said to Brenda, you don't turn down an invitation from your own children That's right, yeah. But, actually I was You don't go every year . I certainly am not. I was looking forward actually to looking after Neil It was one year she could of done without the invitation though isn't it?, if she, if she wanted her other friends and Neil. Definitely , yes, and you, you and Dave could have come up and er Carla, perhaps not Lee , but, you know, he may have wanted to go off somewhere else, erm, we could all have bunked down on what spare space there was and I was going to do a very primitive almost medieval, middle ages sort of Christmas Well that's what we said, but , right. I wasn't going to rush around buying horribly expensive things like smoke salmon that I couldn't afford, I was going to do a big family feast and I was going to get in a few games like the monopoly or lotto or you know , I just, I haven't worked it out but I thought oh what fun That's right. and then, invited to be a good, to be a good mum and a good . No, I mean, that's what it's all about, I mean the fact is I shall enjoy it and I, I very touched that they Well one year it used to be that she come to us at dinner time Mm. and then go to Lenny's in, in the evening. Mm, mm You know yeah, yeah. and I mean it used to be the fact, oh god well we've got to sort of have dinner at twelve o'clock, we've got to be round there by four. Well do you know, when I met, I, I'm meeting old chaps through this very excellent marriage agency, I've never expected any thing like it, they are marvellous, and the sent me a nice old lad, but I knew I was onto a looser when he said, of course I go to my daughter-in-law every Saturday for lunch, she absolutely insists because she says, she wants to make sure that I'm eating properly, now this is a very healthy old man with a very good income who could afford to buy any food he wants and the fact of the matter is his that he's son is probably not, he doesn't want to upset his old dad, and it's handy to have him to come on Saturday for lunch and be done with it as it were, but I thought surely Bernard your own sense would tell you that nobody want's their old father and father-in-law every Saturday of their life, for lunch oh . Honestly do all the time . Oh no. Terrible, it's a problem in it? . My watch. Took the watch to repair it. it didn't get repaired. Didn't get repaired. We, we felt we had a lot of talking to do. You know, that's why we thought we'd come back cos we thought we hadn't talked much. . . Oh very handy why? That be. No th she's going to her sons Christmas Eve and she doesn't want to travel down the M twenty five, M twenty four. Yeah, so she's going to come to me on the bus on the twenty third. stay the month, you go early I mentioned to her about renting, she said that she hadn't, you know, took that idea out the window but she said the only thing is your at the beck and call of the landlord. You can't sort of like you wanna put shelves up and do things to the house, that's what keeps her going,wanna put the rent up it's got a lot of disadvantages. She said she was going to but then she thought about me told Jean last week and she's baby sitting that's why Jim isn't staying tonight so she thought she better not Jean asked why and she said come over if you ,. That's better yeah but in in shop I was quite surprised , I've seen a , looks quite promising the bags Marks & Sparks. Flick?it works so far. . Your . . Four quid. Yeah , how much is it? Three ninety nine. One ninety nine? Three ninety nine. Bloody hell Why is it called Flicks?. Lick it, lick it up. .. practice ,wow. Well yeah,. , that's why up there, all sit around out . Yeah, but. , I was gonna . . That's , well I thought I was expected him . . Mm. . In it, they gotta, that's what I thought, but the thing is, well that's what we normally get. they probably enjoyed it, cos they probably setting it up on the market stalls up there and there afford it. So I thought that's two, erm and I a couple of quid didn't I, in the card, then I thought no I won't put it in the card I'll all there . Exactly , ah, I did . See, Linda. Oh. . body stocking. What is it . It's a tee shirt and he likes don't he? He's . Mm,body stockings. . . . Lynn's track suit where was it then? . Like Benetton isn't it? . . Yes it is.. . I didn't know there was a market called Benetton. . Yes, that's the trouble . Strawberry shades, just trying to find the tee shirt Benetton and lady . . , it's . . . This is what you call a tee shirt. I get two for Thirteen ninety nine. Pay a fortune. Where you . . . Look at the size of that, can't believe it. . You can't , thirteen quid. It's all one size. What size is that then? ,.. tucked in their baggy, yeah . . You who are they bought? Laura. Laura. What these? . . No, I've got her a box of things, I did a little box up with bits in all some for fifty p and a pound, doing that up and hair bands for her, giving her, given a little box with all little bits and pieces in it . Yeah,. Good grief. Mum said. . I haven't got to buy Vicky something. You've got to buy Vicky something though. Why? Cos she's . . . She's eating now, she can't wait that chocolate. I could then . . sitting in the drive, last week she came over to, I said . . No. . Got Jim's, where she works . . Oh er, sandwich . Yeah, and then dad's got a , what's that? I got these. . So when she moved out then? Well he settled . Etam label they were fourteen quid. Where, where did you go the other day?. Did I what? Why didn't you go, she said . You weren't it's your daughter, it's your kid. . Yeah, and even when she was in the no I'm hungry , you've had a bacon Just one ,. No. Please what's the point in going then. she did like them. She had to go to hospital, she never did like it. . I remember when she was , she said . Ah? . I see how I feel, I'm tired. You've got your homework to do. . your gonna be home from football until four, you gonna have your dinner, want a bath. Yeah, but I might not go to school tomorrow. Why? Cos of my cough. How can you play football and not go to school then? Cos I was going out in the fresh air, I'm alright when I'm out in the fresh air. So why aren't you going to school then? I'm in the class room all day dad. What's the difference between being in and being in all day? I cough in there. at school? Yeah,. die, you'll die here on your own won't you? That's what I said I'm, I'll see . . . . . I don't care if you go , all I think of you you get out . come in and stay in that's it, stay in and do your own whatever, and then we'll go, when I go and get the cos dad's on late, we'll go to the hospital then she's got John and Claire and erm the other pair are going this afternoon suppose. . staying there all day, she's staying there till nine o'clock tonight. . have to wait till then to come out. tell I weren't going to about half past six, seven. Yeah and by the time you got home, it'll be about half past three I, I said to Neil I don't , I see how dad is and she just said she felt told you have . . You can . But the idea of given you that money is to homework,. I've been at work all week. twice a day, go and do your football. I wouldn't get it all done tonight any way. So, at least your in out of the damp cold, it's so damp out there. . never your washing, no ironing. Think you ended up with a cough and a cold and she's gonna catch it, I caught it off you. I haven't had time . I think I've got it coming. . Cos I bleeding look ill.. I might get them jeans . Yeah. I might get those jeans . Save your money . Same as . . . , I've got to find . , jeans go nice with this top. Yeah, they would. You've got blue jeans, black jeans, Do you want, do you want my opinion Lee? Mm. If you leave your jeans possible a week before Christmas, now people are buying sale, but I tell you what, but you can, before, a week before Christmas . You could of got this dark green suit over the market today for forty five quid. Yeah, I bet that was really good. . Lovely. Yeah, I bet. Wasn't lined. But you wait,a week before Christmas if they've got stock . Clothes and that will be just slashed.. They are now aren't now. No, but I bet after cos they know people are buying now. It's . Yeah but he, he ain't gonna be wearing jeans out there is he? Yeah, that's what he just said. You know what Lee's like. And if for some reason it doesn't fit and you go back to them Picked a few parcels and wrappers to Marks and Sparks . Couldn't you? Yeah. If you do go back there again you must to match the tie must have a white shirt. But I haven't white shirts. You must, don't buy a stripy one cos a stripy one won't go with the shirt, the tie. nothing else. No I'm saying if the shirt doesn't fit you can . What size is the shirt? It's a small. But he said they are very What collar? Well . With a shirt like that you gotta have it, he he said it's Open. it's gotta be a a tie with that. Well you see it's gotta be a reasonable fit. You can't have a great big baggy shirt underneath a slim suit type of thing. Was he helpful? He seemed alright didn't he? Yeah. The only thing I was him with his poxy trainers on and no shoes. When he turns up next week his trousers'll be about three inches above his shoes. Might get your shoes on Wednesday. But make sure he's got his trousers on! Why does he have to have his trousers on? Well he has to put the suit on, try it on in the shop, to make sure it, wear his shoes there cos even, the shoes he's got might be alright with it. But they they've got holes in. He needs new school shoes. Yes but if they are alright you know the type of shoes you want. All he's gonna wear are shoes that day. Er? Are they, are they quite similar to his school trousers? Oh yeah. The cut? Yeah. Cos they look, be okay with those shoes. Yeah but the length. It's the length you, the trousers'll be alright. Have you gone for the longer length? Like with your school trousers or short short? You couldn't te , they were long Short. Eh? you can't tell because he had trainers on. Short. We may, he measured, we the leg he had trainers on. And matey done them a little bit longer. He added a bit. He done down to the top of the trainer Have they got turn-ups on? Yeah. and then down a bit more. they'll cut them. Well I should imagine they'll cut them yeah. They, they will they won't they won't just turn them up they'll actually cut them. So he picked it up and he shoes. I'll give you the receipt actually so you've got it in case. Go and get your Benolin. Or the other one. How many has the other one got? Four at a time? No. So how many ti times do you take it? One spoonful or one ? two teaspoons. My pension. Getting old mate. . Here you are. If I was to pop my clogs at work or any time you'd get fifty five thousand eight hundred eighty pounds. Quick, knock him off then. . We'll knock him off quick. Plus you get your three and a half grand back. Plus you would get five thousand six hundred and six pounds a year pension. Plus the insurance on the house would pay up so you'd have, ha bloody hell, so you'd have about sixty grand in the bank. Must be worth twenty five grand then. No mortgage. Think how many shirts with that you could buy then. And at the moment you know when I'm gonna retire Bren? When? When is it? This ain't far away. With that fifty five, yeah? Fifty five grand. What if you don't if you don't die before? You don't get it, do you. You don't get it? I retire I'm sixty five right this is not far away when you say it like this. On the fourth of July two thousand and nineteen. Is that ? That ain't far away is it? What's that? At sixty five? Mm. You're sixty five in that year. And if I, if I stayed with Tescos and got me pension and that. But I don't think it's with the A V C's it's just the pension. I could, if I retire at sixty five I can have twenty this is the best bit, twenty one thousand pound in a lump sum. And then I could have a pension which would be seven thousand six hundred and seventy three pounds a year which is about a hundred and twenty pounds A month. a week. No a week. Plus you would have that month's salary. What would you go you wouldn't have a lump sum? Oh yeah, yeah. You'd have the lump sum as well? Oh I'd have the lump, no you can it would be more than that. My pension, if I didn't have it if I say I don't want the lump sum, the twenty one grand. Yeah. It would probably be fourteen thousand pound a year you'd work it on two hundred and fifty pound a week. But if you're sixty five you haven't got much longer to go have you? You know what If you took the lump sum and Yeah. If you get your lump sum out if you want a new car you get a new car. Because you get your state pension as well. Which is for a couple would be eighty three pounds. So you'd be on you'd have twenty one grand which you could put away. Live on the interest. No you couldn't live on the interest. But see the way I, the way I assume, see this the endowment on the house is paid So that goes fifteen thousand. So you'd have like twenty, well so they about twenty grand so you get twenty grand there. By that time we should have about I would say at least another ten thousand pounds in that account of yours. So you'd have thirty grand there which And those family assurance things. Yeah. Plus the shares which will be on my side. Plus this pension so you'd be, you'd have your house paid for so you'd get a nice A nice nest egg. a nice lump you can draw for a holiday and plus have a good living between. That's why that, at the moment I don't see it well I don't see it a necessity you to get a pension. Mm. But I think You got that family assurance thing haven't you? And I've got my TESSA. That's what I mean, yeah. That's why I say to you, you say oh we've got this we've got that we want that we want this but er I tell you two thousand nineteen and you're at nineteen ninety two. That ain't far away though. And plus the fact there's, I don't wanna work till I'm sixty five I wanna pack up about What about that pension if you want to pack up before? No it's, it is quite reducing. That's why you've gotta be er put all your things together now. See even that there If for some reason you go back there and you're not happy with the suit right? I shall cha , you know me. . No let him try it on. Don't take the suit away. Alright? Listening? Right. Well what if he says well, it's alright you take it away and then bring it back? No. Well it's no good to you. Alright? Don't take the suit away, the only thing I'm a bit dubious well he said well take the suit home and try it if it's not he said come back with it, he said and we'll exchange it down here. He said there's no problem with the exchange. I came out that shop and I thought and why the fucking hell didn't he let us try it on there and then? And if it ain't the right size he can take the one that is. So I thought perhaps matey only had a small and large. Not a medium so he's given him the small so he's thinking if if it doesn't fit he's still made the sale. If you see what I mean. So you have to go back and have another shirt. I mean he had about four or five different shirts there. But it has to be white. What, did you think it would be too small? Well no cos matey, I don't think so cos matey said he is a small. Cos I said to him I said well look, he likes his shirts baggy he said yeah but you can't have a shirt too baggy with a suit. So But that shirt's okay cos it, I mean he can wear that to school can't he? The rest of Oh yeah. But he's gotta try it on and make sure it's not, if it's all tight he ain't gonna be happy in it is he? That's if he said today he said I don't know when I'm gonna wear the suit. Well you said he could wear it well like you said most people mm I'll wear it. Have a night out at the . Have a night out at . What? Put the old suit on. Here comes love her. to wear. Oh fucking hell!oh Better get something in that's stronger than that Dave. So what time are you er picking up at one. Where's . What time are you going? Two o'clock kick off. Forty five minutes quarter to four. Round about no good about quarter past four. And what time have we got coming over? Six. I'll tell you there's no way when my kids get older, I don't care how boring my life is, I will never ever go round their house every week. I reckon she had a few last . I think once a month is nice. You've got something to talk about. you've got something to chat about. sit here don't we and nothing to say to each other. We talk about last night? I did as well though. What time did they leave? I should think erm long after. ? Oh. seems a bit expensive. Oh no. Not really Dave. Yeah I know but I was thinking it's alright but where you gonna put it? . At the end of her bed. It's not, it's not like they said. Innit? Cos the stand's only that size. She could have it out and she'd have a lot of fun with it and on it. I mean Argos does, do one. Three hundred and sixty nine with the drum and everything. And if the bloke can tape from it. I mean you can't, it's not, I mean you couldn't have it in like What she want it for then? Er? What she want it for? Who? Carla. Well she can either sing in it play the organ, sing in it and tape it as well. You can have a lot of fun with them. Can't erm like the one she's got upstairs is like all she was quite happy with is a seventy pound one. Like that but a bigger version with full keys. Mm. But this one this bloke's got is a full key like a piano. Oh is it? And you've got all the tunes. You've got all the you've got I think a hundred voices. You've got jazz, ballet, all different things on it. Oh. I mean it's it's good to play . Well I think that's quite I mean I'd probably knock him down to a hundred anyway. I said to him if if, last night I said I probably . I said I want to try it out first. Leave it at your house and I'll try it out and erm but Nick wouldn't sell it to you if he thought it was Oh no. not worth it. But he, I mean that one from Argos seventy quid. And it's not the full size keys or anything. What's he flogging it for? Been made redundant. It's Where did he work? it's er she did say. It's Pete's erm, Pete! Nick's sister's boyfriend. Dunno who it is Oh well we've got the cash. The money's, like I said to you Oh yeah but the thing is it's something, it's the main, it's something she, it's like said to her last night Well if she wants that you let her have it. what do you want? She said I want an organ but mum would never let me have one. And it's worth The only thing I don't like about it is the noise. Ah yeah but it's not noisy noisy are they? Aren't they? And the fact, what I like about it, it can be battery or mains. Oh Plug it in. And I mean she's, you've got room out there to have it if it just stands. And then that I was gonna say, tell you something. You . That's . Someone had an intruder. I'm not sure but I think it was Mrs Turner. Well funny enough she's, she's got a light to put on now. Yeah. I see the bloke putting them up. Because it was an old age woman, they ain't give anyone's names old age woman was er it was in the paper sort of met up with an intruder in her house like. and I dunno went screaming, went crackers. But then he said a neighbour who had a dress , just wearing a dressing gown and he was married with three kids which is next door heard what going, been going on and he they were chasing, were chasing all through the common. Virtually all the way out to park but they didn't give his name either. Must be her. That's what I thought when I see her put her lights up. I didn't see, I just saw them lit up last, all last night lit up. Yeah. Yeah I just assumed I thought oh hallo. I was reading it in the paper I thought oh I wonder if is. And she had that paint didn't she? That iffy painter? Mm. Trouble is they know she lives there on her own. Mm. That's what I mean. We don't wanna put a lot of valuable stuff out here. Cos at any time I mean, if we're here I mean there's always someone in cos I'm working nights so I'm here in the days. So easy to break that I'm glad I've got, broke the back of it. All I've got now is I haven't gotta go out for a main, if I'm out just pick up a couple of bits for him when from Woking. But I can go to Woking and get whatever Yeah. And that's like Carla. I might, what you got from Argos the other day, I might keep one of the things back for her birthday. Trouble is if they get so much they don't use it. I mean it's different if it's clothes they need, good. Mm. But if it's toys. They get all the toys and they She needs . She's got nothing up there what we brought. Alright that but nothing one game she can actually play with. It's like Lee I mean he'll have all his stuff and that, he's got nothing to do. hasn't he? But she does still. Mm. God that'd be a nightmare. She's got fifty presents to buy. Where she going for Christmas then? Well if Vicky's in hospital she said they're going for the day there. Are they? But if, how does ? she's not well enough . But I mean I think Gill sort of worries the fact I think she's, I mean nobody said she'd be in there till Christmas. The doctor just said No well if she's eating they aren't going to let her out. Well she's down to six stone eleven. She was nine four before this started. No she's lost four stone, she was ten stone four. And then she's been average on the last three or four months she's been on eight stone. But now it's gone down, but there's no ulcer she had a laparotomy on Friday the tube. And there's nothing wrong with her it was just sort of it's just nerves isn't it? Strain and nerves. I keep thinking, I mean I can when I first met her . She I mean she's got all the facilities about her but she don't seem She's ever so, I mean she's very quiet and sort of sweet but she's got no Got no idea. I mean I said to her today I mean there was this costume there and I said here get that one there I said french maid outfit, nurse's outfit. I said get that then. And she went no I wouldn't wear that! I said oh Dave would like that. There was no you know no, no sort of sense of humour there at all. But erm you know I've, I've but she said he's been right sort of Well you would be wouldn't you? Tying all that money up in the house. Now if he's gotta make out himself there'll be a possibility he might be losing it. But you don't know how bad he is. I mean he wouldn't sack his ex wife. She still works with him in the shop. And Gill gave her job to go and work in the shop and he wouldn't let her go and work in it. I said I thought it was you? She said no he kept saying oh we'll start you in a month, start you in a month if I get rid of her. And he wouldn't get rid of her. And that's where a lot of it and she still think's that he's Yeah. I mean he was married for quite a long time to her apparently. And she only lives two doors from the shop. Goes round there for his lunch. Does he? Yeah! I mean you know he's made the break. And she said he's just so you know it was one beer and that was it. I couldn't believe Yeah. how come you're back in? It's just different people aren't they? Just sort of a bit Oh well so all we've really gotta do now then is just get out and do a shop for Christmas. . We ain't gonna be doing a lot anyway are we? I've got all that. Yeah all we want is a turkey. Bit of turkey and some drink. Get a few nibbles sort of like couple of days before like er cos if Kim comes I'll do like I did last year, just a little buffet tea. But I'm not buying biscuits and sweets and Gateaux. Yeah. I don't know. I might get one gateau. Well eat things like that won't she? Yeah. Well I might tell her to bring it. But that's it, I'm not buying I've got a couple of boxes of chocolates we bought from Tescos didn't we? Those Suchard things. Jean's bought me a tin of biscuits and a tin of of tin of biscuits so there's ample biscuits. Erm and it's just bits of crisps. Mm. There's nothing really. And a couple of bottles of wine. No. And that's it. So it hasn't really. I mean today I've I paid all this cash. Just sit there in a Well I just think of the fact and I know it's sort of miserable but Christmas night I think well, if you've gotta sort of something like you've got to put up with your mum and dad and I think well just the more the merrier. Because just sort of go for it and it's all done and then visit. You let them visit you on that night and that's it. diet and you'll end up having his dinner . Well we'll just say no. are we? We'll tell him . We're, we're not around. we know they're gonna be around we'll just say you know we're not gonna be around. Cos we might feel when we come out there we'll look at the turkey, might go for a walk or go Er don't think so! Are the pubs open? Yeah I reckon the pubs open. Yeah. Christmas? If you go Ten till twelve. I mean if you have a good hour in there you're not gonna get in smack on ten be there about twenty past ten, probably get in about twenty to eleven that's just right. Get out at twelve By the time you've had an hour in there swimming you know how busy when you're swimming lengths what with the diving in. You then you want to get home and get your dinner. Cos it makes you hungry dunnit, swimming? Mm. So you wanna have it going cos like I say turkey night before . Lob everything in if you can. Put it on a very low one so when you come back about twenty past two whack it up and by sort of say three o'clock, quarter past three you can sit down and eat your grub dinner. Be nice if you could get it, get it then if you felt like it afterwards about half past four or something you could just get out to get fresh to quick walk. Fresh air or something. That's it. Walk a bit of dinner off so you can come back and sit down and . I reckon Christmas is cracked up a lot more than it it's made out to be. I personally think. kids . If it's no That's what Jean was saying yesterday. She said you she said when I think she said I normally pay sort of fifty sixty pound a head present she said. . And she said who really is bothered how much you spend on them? As long as there's something You open it up and you look at it and say oh thanks. It's lovely. She said unless it, like with, with that doll she's bought Carla she said they're a good thing for collectors for her. She said you know she, them and her trolls she collects. She said alright it's twenty five quid, it's an expense but she said but it's something that she'll keep. Yeah. She said but to these people that buy these kids motorbikes and big cars for two hundred quid. It's crazy. Yeah they use well mum and dad's got time oh we'll share it with the kids They shove it under the bed. Then we, well just sits in the cupboard,. Now, he's had it what eighteen months and it's too small for him. She's going to ain't she? I don't know. She don't know does she? Cos it obviously she wouldn't be able to sell, spend it down here. It's funny though innit? Every, every year four weeks about, well even before that but you always have to s every year I know, if we ever fall out it's always about family at Christmas. All year you don't see them I don't think you will this year cos, cos you haven't I'm having to say oh come on we've got to go and visit her. Mm. And I mean I wouldn't I mean it's no way, even Sid says I wouldn't drive all the way up there to see them. Mm. Even though if Beryl wasn't sort of around. Because I mean it's like, you know it it's like with Jane kids. I mean the fact is half her If you went up there you wouldn't be, you wouldn't be happy up there. I mean it's like Jane I mean I was thinking the other day. I mean alright she, we haven't phoned each other but I mean the thing is half of her she's just so naive with mother. She doesn't want any up , she wants to be happy with, I mean Jane out of all them I mean normally I mean she's, she would do anything for you. You know if you sort of said to her look I need someone to have the kids for a week. She wouldn't hesitate. Yeah. But I can't see that I can't her not having for Christmas. Well she's not is she? She's coming down to Sally and Jane. It's Trevor. Apparently he's really, Annie was saying he really put his foot down. Annie? Yeah! Really sort of like and she, she walked out and left him and the kids. She didn't? Yeah. She left him. And he weren't gonna have her back. Oh ain't he? No! Apparently he really has Where did she go then? To your mums? No to her mates. What, with her? Yeah she wouldn't tell mother apparently. No. Oh no, no! She was just got so depressed. Oh has she? Yeah. With these problems she's having and they don't know what's wrong with her. And it's it's it's nerves. You got a couple of little bones there Carla. Have I? Alright? Eh? There's a plate for your bones. Was there just the kids down ? Just seems to be kids and . What? Is there no more in the cast? What? It just seems to have the kids . Is that all that's in the cast? Where's that Chris then? He never turns up. He knows his own parts though doesn't he? He goes and No. He doesn't know anything. Doesn't he? ? Oh maybe. Oh. Bit dry innit? of dad's cooking. So it was a bit of a hard match today then mate? Yeah. Was it! Right cocky team they are, aren't they? Oh my god. We deserved to win. No we don't deserve to win. Oh I thought we did. So what are they called? Town? . They haven't got a clue about football. Dad. They haven't got a clue about football. They're good though. They're good but it's just because they're rough. No they're just aggressive. That's why I mean in the score today. cos he throws them off. Mm? And that's why they've got to fight to keep their place haven't they? I mean he ain't a hundred percent fit. Who? Him. You could hear his chest pumping can't you? That's what I said to you down the doctors, that it's obviously on his chest. Have a day off school tomorrow. I am. Mm. You can tell mum's tired. Got the hump. Gotta do the ironing yet. Have you? Got no school clothes. Nothing much . Come out the bath. Bet there's no hot water left now then. Yeah. Come out and had a nice can of beer. Really nice it was. You've had a nice lazy day today. Who, dad? Yeah. Every day's a lazy day for him. get you breakfast tomorrow then. lazy. You could get dad breakfast . What time are you going work tomorrow dad? Or have you got a day off? Dunno. If you don't want it all don't eat it. I do. just put it back in the oven. Mm? I said if he doesn't fancy it all just put it back in the oven. Or leave it till later. Are you not hungry? I won't eat all of it though. Gives him all those fish and potatoes. Mm thanks. Well have a bath. And when you come back down put it in the oven. Might fancy it then. Mm. suit? Brentford this morning. straight from Brentford Eh? to our match. Mm? . Mum. You know erm Paul? He's got this suit, yeah? Yeah he's got a nice suit. Yeah I know and have you seen his tie? It's cards, he's got a tie made of cards. big black red hearts erm really good. Yeah? Put a little drop of gravy on it. Erm you know Sharn So it don't dry up Yeah? He's got a Benetton watch I like. eat yours . twenty minutes. Put it over your chicken so it don't dry up. He showed me it's lovely. Just pour it on there. Don't be frightened of it. It won't bite you. There you are. Stick it back in the oven. So is that the first time you've done that new, that song today Oh! Bone. Ugh. Yeah. Is it? Eh? Is that the first time you've done that song? What? Mm. Was the only one there that didn't turn up? Mm mm. Yeah. She's getting pretty annoyed. Did she tell him? Did somebody ask where she was? Mm. said she do you know where she is. who? . How did he know? Mm? How did he know? Was she there at ballet? So what did you do yesterday then Carla? Leanne's No I meant last night at Leanne's. Watched the God of Revenge. Wasn't very good. She was starving though. She didn't get any I thought it was brilliant. She only give her two bits of toast. Oh yeah? Dad. Have you told I'll ask her. I told you that you were starving. I had two pieces of toast and an apple. Well you look well on it anyway. Didn't she say do you want anything to eat Carla? No. Who got you the toast? Leanne? We both had toast and we both had apples. And she was still hungry and she had dinner already. but Sue weren't feeling very well was she? Last night. Was she better this morning? Really horrible today mum. Why? saying to Leanne go over there and she goes and Leanne goes why? And she goes cos you're annoying Mark and she goes, over there. And she goes no, if you're so worried about it why don't you move? What did Sue do? Nothing. She should get a smack then, shouldn't she? Leanne's never been hit. She might have when she was a baby but not like now. What's the maths revision then? What's the maths revision? He's been given the today in maths. Here you are. Spit that Locket out and have that better. Have this one. Sorry could you get it Carla it's gone behind. It's a lot stronger. Here you are, Carla. That's Spit that out. first. Yeah. What's the maths? revision paper . has he got one for ? No, he this one. So did you miss much? Did you get any homework? Mm. Carla, have you brought your creative book home? Your book with all your Christmas things. Christmas at school. That's why I wanted to cover it with . wrapping paper. Cover what? That book! You know I got some wrapping paper that one? Yeah. That was the paper to cover my Christmas book. Oh. I haven't started it yet that's why. What Christmas book? What you're on about. With all the different things to make in it? Mm. That we bought? When I was swimming I went to change and I found a swimming costume. It's a good one. Yeah. Somebody had obviously left it in the cubicle. I I brought it home. I don't know whether you can wash it out and see if you like it. It's a nice one. Oh. Was it any better ? No . As much there as yesterday? Mm? As much ? Ooh good. I had to get him going. Meant to be resting though, isn't he? Why? I bet he a lot tomorrow . Why? only got thirty bob left. Do you have to buy swimming? What's this you're watching? got this from the shop. Who did? Me. You went to the video shop? Mm. When did you go to the video shop then? What? He's not meant to be out! video. But you're not at school. You should be indoors. It's not one for Carla. It's not? Well it's quite, it's quite it is in parts but Well you had t time to watch it. Eh? What have you got for Carla? What? What have you got for Ca , oh it's not one for Carla? Well this I would think, the beginning's not, no. Why, what's a lot of swearing? The kids the kids can actually talk. The parents but the kids are talking like we talk. nursery and that. It's quite funny. See? The parents don't know . Did James set a job for you? Yeah. starting in the bedroom now, so decorators said they, and of course they're doing the downstairs cloakroom so there's two upstairs, one downstairs and they're making so much mess everywhere. So do you think you're ? You are. Did you take a cough capsule. This morning. So are you gonna take a dose of this? Well go on. You go and do it in the kitchen. Well what about your DayNurse? Eh? Take your DayNurse? No. Well get it down you as well. Well I'm taking Cough Caps Nurofin the other blue thing and this only that one in between you mustn't take that. You should take a wallop of that before you go to bed. That don't half make you sleep. One more to go. spare batteries for that? Eh? Got any more spare batteries in there? You can keep them. No cos they know. You got two more to put in for the next tape. Mhm. Have you nearly finished have you finished the first ten yet? No. This is number nine and you've got the last one. There's one more tape after that. And you've got to do both sides. What we'll do is stick that up when he's up there with . Yeah? Well there'll be some stories when we play that one back. It'll be you Well maybe that's a good idea really and then we'll get rid of one. Who I'd like to roger Oi. or who I have rogered. We'd just be talking about maths and that's it. Yeah! That's alright. That's all they want.. Just talking about maths! won't listen to it. I can't be bothered to listen to it. Can you do that? And then it fills one side up then. It won't. It will! Because I've got to get that other one done. Yeah. It will just be left blank for the whole of the time. Why? Don't you talk much then? No. We listen to music mostly. Well is it is this near the beginning? What? Isn't it near the beginning then? This is, yeah. But I can't find those damn stupid You had any phone calls today? . Have I had any what? Phone calls. Have you slept at all? What've you been doing? Watched the telly. Haven't you done any more homework? I haven't got any more to do. Thought you said you had french and maths? Maths been done. french Eh? revision. Oh is it. And did James ask you when you was going back to school? No. I'm not gonna go, I doubt if I'll go back tomorrow. He's definitely not going back tomorrow. So you might have another week off yet. I mean it's not worth going back until er it's gone completely. This is the beginning. No it's before . When did you, what time did you go and get this then? About ten past nine. What time do they want you to start then? I dunno. Suppose probably about midnight or something. They just said is Dave there. It's Tescos and Lee said no, he's not here. And put the phone down and that was it and I said well you'd better go dad cos case he wanted to speak to anybody. And they didn't call back. They were gonna phone up Eh? . Unless someone told you. Yeah. Well I'd just say to change your start time. I'd say no, sorry, he's in bed. change your start time. And then I wouldn't ask him . And I'd say no I couldn't wake you, I wouldn't wake him. . belly! Who? Pete What, he's put on weight? Cor, has he! I couldn't believe it. Who, dad? Cor he is David. No. Do you remember Leslie and David? Debbie and Nickie's dad that used to be, before they split up. Is he fat? Yeah!belly. Did you say to him? What? That he'd put on weight. I said to him the other day, well four weeks ago. I said you're putting some on. . Is it all over he's put it on? He hasn't got to and all that now has he? So I suppose he He Saturday. Eh? He was doing some on Saturday. Who with? What's her name? Denise? Still, she got a clean five pound note. Oh you got her fiver? . Still right in her black jeans you know lucky black didn't go all over it. At least I'm going Christmas shopping tomorrow. Tomorrow? Who with? You!take me Yeah, if I'm better. Thursday. What? It's late night on Thursday innit? Yeah. But she's out Thursday Friday. That's what I said you've only got this last Saturday and then like next Thursday next week is your last weeks and then you've got still two weeks clear before Christmas. Before you finish, Carla. What? You've still got two weeks anyway, three weeks. Before what? It's your last dance on Saturday. Well I know but I don't wanna go out on a Saturday. Well late night's on Thursday and you're not here Thursday. I don't know if I'm going tomorrow night. I'll see how I feel. Did you get your homework done? Eh? Did you get your homework done in the lunchtime? Homework? You said you hadn't done your homework. I know I haven't. I only got it today. Yeah but yesterday you said you was French. this morning you said you was gonna do your homework French. Oh was it? Yeah I've done it. Mm? I've done it. What have you got tonight then? Well it's a competition really. And it's homework. but you gotta do two hundred words or less that you wanna be when you're older. Mm look in the future. Mm. And if you win, you come second or third or fourth you get a big, you know them cameras, look like them. Camcorder. Yeah. A camera, a telly, computer, a video recorder yeah? Oh blimey. That's good. And you get five hundred pound for yourself and for your family. Who's the camcorder and that all for the school? Yeah. Mm that's good then innit? But we'll get five hundred quid if we come anywhere. two schools that enter. What, and all the kids get into it? On , only the top year from each school. Not bad is it? Blimey. Do you want gorgeous! Mm! Getting quite low ain't we? In the freezer now. Pizza's are a little bit burnt I'm afraid. Can I swap do you want the piece of chicken mum? Yes I will. Oh. We all had the biggest bits actually. Me and Clive er me and Jane had the small bit. I was gonna swap pizza for chicken. Cos that's nice that. Nice nice nice nice nice nice. Mm! Are you gonna take your Christmas cards ? I told you there were mini roast potatoes. Mm. potatoes. onion ring? Mm? Onion ring? No I just all mine. Were they really busy at work Dave? Mm not so bad really. do they have to work? I know you only have to work so many Saturdays but because it's sort of Christmas do they like everybody to work? No. They don't have to? No. So is gonna buy that house or not? To be quite honest I haven't seen to talk to. I saw him this morning but he was sitting on another table. when I had some breakfast. But I haven't seen to talk to for Why didn't you sit at his table then? Well it was all full up. What is the shift he on then? What shift? Mm. He's just doing the day shift. It's all supposed to take effect from next week. What? The well actually they start this Thursday. What, funny hours? Yeah cos the shops, it's every Sunday now innit? Yeah. Is that all of them? Or just No. Some can't open. Guildford can't open. Catterick can't open. Guildford can't? Why? That's part and parcel how the council about that site. What that they didn't trade on a Sunday? Mm. So they can't do it. So I should imagine they must be really upset. Cos it was how much, on that family ? Hundred and sixty six. ? Mm. It's a lot of money innit? But if you people are not gonna do more shopping are they? If you go and do your shopping then you're not gonna do it on Friday. So the shop ain't gonna take a lot more money really. No. I mean you, you're not gonna go out and spend eighty quid on groceries that you've already had on Friday just cos the shop's open on Sunday are you? Yeah a lot of people just didn't go probably on Friday. And the fact, I don't think there'll be that big on Sundays. I mean being Christmas, yes. But I don't think They're all frightened that one of them's gonna sell a tin of baked beans more than the other one on a Sunday. That's all there is to it. Stupid innit? Mhm. Who's this? Tescos. Dad hasn't been to bed yet Carla. Eh? He hasn't been to bed yet. Who hasn't? The battery's going. What? Is it? Yeah. Mm? Battery's flat. I'll have to put another battery in. Yeah, but what did you say about bed? Dad hasn't been to bed yet. Why not? Where've you been? Swimming. Mm. Bit of exercising. Do your favourite ones. What've I done then? Won't take me Christmas shopping. But I will! She will. Tomorrow? She'll see how she's feeling. I'll see how I feel Carla. I don't, I'm going to hospital Friday, I don't wanna go tomorrow do I? Racing round. For god's sake. Then I'll get really cold. For god's sake. I slept like a baby down here. Mm? That , it's so comfortable. missing. more comfortable than my bed at home. And you sort of sink in it. At three o'clock this morning I went upstairs. If I say so myself that weren't bad. I must have used up four different bags of potatoes in the down there. Ain't got a spud left in the house. Not one in the whole house. You know why? Cos I went shopping early last week didn't I? I went Wednesday. So it's over a week. We got no chicken left. We've got one pizza that's about it. Mm not a lot ? just about. We got sausages and burgers. No. I used them sausages didn't I,. I dunno. And the burgers. Last night . Should have a stock up really. flower. Straight after Christmas that flowers. Well I reckon it might come before. So mild innit? Gotta put the bulbs in ain't I? We're getting no frosts or anything. That's what, that's what some really bad hard frosts. That's the trouble. And half of it why everybody's got coughs and colds. Not killing the germs are they? That's it. Because it's, it's so mild. I mean I can't remember when we last had a frost. That's what we want innit? A good week of really good hard frosts. That's like what the decorator said really knocking it out they're on erm Pete, well Pete can't see why it's taking so long the hall. So he's put them back on instead of hourly,work. Well it has it's it's the only way to deal with that lot . But they said like they will get his room done. They've given him a price just for painting the walls. No putting a up and all the extras he wants. Because it's like you say in the hallway. What? Better put down, having meal. that's the second one out I should think. Well she's coming about half past three Friday. Who? They're coming about half past three on Friday. Are they? . Think that's about it . Surprised Jenny hasn't come round garage. Thought been and picked hers up. I thought Jenny had picked hers up. work Saturday. No oh No. crazy because I mean he knows it's not done by Hallo! What did you shout out then? Thank you very much. Are you gonna watch the rest of that video? Why? What got enough light in there. Is it alright if I have a Mac please. and all if he wants. Pardon? You can have an umbrella and all if you want. Mac rain mac. No. Did you do any maths? Mhm. You got maths and . All we're doing tonight is maths. Oh. Don't forget I'll be coming to bed . And when the workmen start no sounds I'm afraid unless they're very very low. Yeah. Thank you. You don't hear them though, do you? I was putting the spuds on, I dunno twenty past two I think. I was sat on the couch and when I woke up, ten to three. Fuck me they'll be burnt. Well I thought today at work thought there's no way he's gonna last out. I thought I bet he's fighting it. It's alright if you keep busy but it's when you stop and stand innit? Yeah I know. That's what I mean, when I go to bed I should in theory . But I say I went all day without nothing to eat bloody starved. I got in there and I thought cos I wanted bacon and eggs but I thought if I have breakfast I'm gonna think well . So I went in, I just had an egg on toast really nice. And that's when you bought your meat pies? Yeah I thought well he's sitting home I can't . I said to the girl give us two meat pies wrapped up. She probably thought blinking pig! come in he was like a little big kid. I said come on get your breakfast. He said what you got then? I said it's in my coat. He said . I said do you want it I said, get out here I said fucking get it. He got out here, when he unwraps it he beaming like a little ki . Did he put them in the microwave? No he went off. What stuck, just from Tesco ? Yeah. They was wrapped up. I shoved them in me coat and . He was sitting there eating pie sandwiches . Like a great big baby. I thought you . twenty past eight. Yeah. Well when he, I said where do you get that from? He said oh I been . I thought well, you must have rode him up there thinking you know, get him something to watch. I thought you'd gone up there and got it. I didn't realize he'd gone up and got it himself. ten past nine . That tree budding there . Yeah. That's middle , that's coming up innit? It's growing up nice. This first one's not doing much is it? I think it was suffocated by those others. Yeah. That's like that little one over there, that's Or unless it's that's the height. No . Your trees are growing now aren't they? Yeah. They've shot up actually. This time next year you you'll have a good you'll have a nice little hedge there then. That'll be up be up at least another s ooh foot probably. Probably be a a lot higher than the sticks but they won't have bushed out. Don't you have to do you no cos if you trim them at the top to bush out Yeah you do. Oh you do. When it's finished Not not until you get to the height that you want. You want. Mm. Where you gonna go? Just like er That's just about the same height as the fence you see. Not the pointed bit but the gutter level. I shall be glad when that privet hedge g privet hedge grows. And hides his bit of shed. Dunno where Mike and Barbara's gone . . They're going away Saturday for a week or something. Oh are they? She does that shift doesn't she? Twelve weeks on eight weeks off. She's semi-retired. would you? That's what I mean. Why don't she have decent car. Travel round Britain Scotland and that. Have a nice bed and breakfast. There's so many places they haven't seen or haven't been. They just don't They're gonna buy a new car aren't they? Eh? They're gonna buy a new car at Christmas, after Christmas. Who? ! Yeah. I remember he said when you, mum got that money. No. I dunno he said he's got this one fixed now.. He's got it fixed? fixed it didn't he? What's the matter with him? They wanna get themselves something like a one point eight hatchback, so it's got a little, nice sized engine Automatic. Yeah. Get like they are, semi-retired and why they're putting that great lump on the end of their house I just don't know. But that's up to them. Beats me. Cos there's never more than about two of them is there? And then he goes out doesn't he? Occasionally. That's what I mean. They're gonna have a great big lump stuck on the house. I mean that ten grand, that's their car. They could keep their house. Use it as a base and travel. They could shoot off on a Tuesday or something. Take their time going up to Scotland. You could have a week up two weeks up there. You could come back, do a bit more work. . By the time they pack up work they'll be so decrepit they won't be able to do anything. I think your mum'll probably retire when your dad does won't she? aren't they? I dunno. Mind you,criticize and say should buy this should buy that. You don't really know what sort of money they have got do you? Haven't got a clue. Must have a fair bit thought mustn't they? I mean I I . When you think they're earn both earning a full wage. No mortgage. Haven't got no rates. They've got the poll tax and their gas and electric and the phone bill. That's all that comes out. They probably about twelve hundred, thirteen hundred . got a lot of money. Oh I don't know. Well she gets, how much does she get from her pension a week? Oh that's without the pensions. That's just their wages. So they get about twelve thirteen hundred. And probably picking up another hundred pound hundred and twenty pound between them a week. We'll say another five. No they're probably they're probably clearing every month about seventeen hundred quid. And what have they got to pay out? Poll tax. Food. That's basically it really. Think, they've got no mortgage. And the bills aren't that high are they? Think they've actually bought the T V now haven't they? Oh yeah. T V and the video. Mind you when you think of it like that when you when you say that you've got no mortgage and your kids grow up they don't need your money and that and if you're both in good jobs it is you do tend to think to yourself well at least lot lot longer than. Sort of, you've got your health knock out sixty seventy, right we can do it for another year. I mean got no mortgage to pay out you can you can bank eight hundred pound of that every month. Well they probably do but I mean right they can go and I mean what do they spend their money on? Presumably perhaps they're just saving it up until they get to a certain certain age and they're gonna say right that's it let's just go. But I can't see it either . no sort of well they don't do anything do they? I reckon she must be, by the time they get home from work she don't wanna do a lot. I thought she but I'm trying to think what she phoned me up for. Yeah, she phoned me up to ask me what she should do about Beryl. What she should do ? Mm. What do you mean what she should do about Beryl? For Christmas presents. . See if makes contact with her your mum'll start on her then. Well I said to her er your mum asked me last night. She said I, will I get a bottle of wine and that? And I said well And she, well to be honest Bren she said, she hasn't really done anything to me and Sid has she? I said well no, you know I told her I said as soon as you receive gifts like that I said she knows you're a soft touch mate. She'll be she'll be Yeah but she does it like she said though I mean if I was your mum, I said to her if I was, I would just give it to her. I said because the fact is How's she gonna see her anyway? Well she'll just give it to Ellie to give her. And send it up there and she said, and I mean all she, she buys Linda a tin of biscuits, Jane a tin of biscuits and Ellie. And she said well thing is if I don't do it Bren I don't want, you know she's bound to sort of say. I said well no cos she probably do expects you not to bother. Yeah. I said just do it and I said thing is if she just ignores you I said you know not to bother next year. I said just get her a bottle of you know Table wine. One ninety nine Sainsbury's wine. I said just get something cheap, and a card. And she said well you know I thought we'd better. But she said obviously you and Dave asked me, us not to we won't. I said well it's nothing to do with me Pam. Oh s . I just couldn't go into it and I said you know it'll only, I mean the fact is she's, was buying Ellie and Jane Ellie and Linda. And should she leave Jane out? And I said well she Jane hasn't done nothing to you really Pam to be honest. I said the argument's between me not you. Well this is what me and Sid said. No. He's at work. She's starting the old ain't she? Can you imagine that? Oh god! She's having a I told you she's having a Christmas party now Sunday straight after Christmas. I said we've got the pantomime on the Saturday. She said well the following Sunday Lee's away so Does that mean we've gotta go down there? Well she's having her party so Christmas day is the Wednesday boxing day is the Thursday and she and she having her party on the Saturday, Sunday. That would be a chance, when's new year? The following Wednesday. Christmas day is what? Wednesday? Wednesday. Er boxing day Thursday So then I go back to work Friday. I'll have to work Friday Saturday Sunday Tuesday. Wednesday's new year's day? Yeah. So I'll be at work that Sunday. all against it. Are you? Why's that then? So they might, they might work us. Well they might, it depends how busy they are obviously. So we might be able to swing something that we can work Saturday and Sunday. Cos there won't be no overtime after Christmas will there? Saturdays. We'll be back to what we usually are won't we? Yeah but then you're gonna next year cut down on Saturdays aren't you? Oh yeah. shares. When does that one stop? March? February I think. The last payment the end of February. Then you've only got two actually payments of the new one. But then can you start another one in February? If I want to but I won't cos I'll be on a hundred and fifty a month anyway. Cos you've got, what will you have then, two fifty at the moment? Just from January and February it will be two fifty. Possibly March, cos one doesn't finish till March. Is that five years you've been there? God. It just goes so quick the time doesn't it? I remember starting that . Yeah. I never thought I'd even see the day we finished it. Still there. Do you still think they'll go over to ? depending what they want . They sorted it out with Kevin and that other one? Are they still being smartarses? No st still the same as ever. Managed to sort it out? Well it don't really affect me. I, I've got nothing to hide. They can check up on me any time really . Is he still being funny with you though? That other bloke. No. He talks to me now. He talks to you now? Mm. When I first went back he told me on Saturday. You know I had that crappy start time? Mm. Apparently they tried to phone me on Friday afternoon but I was out swimming. To see if I could do an early . Oh. So that's why . And I said to him I'm sorry I was swimming. I said it was in the book that I was available And he was alright then? Yeah. Like you say you've got to watch them cos they'll stab you in the back won't they? isn't he? Where's he ? In the warehouse. The warehouse . Really? Why's that then? Because he didn't get that promotion? Well no. they go in there. So what will he be in the warehouse then? Same as he is at the moment. A clerk. And you don't wanna upset them cos they're worse than the drivers aren't they? Mind you they haven't had a strike lately have they, the warehouse? We've had some. Have you? Yeah. We've had two or three. What about that other is that Kitty's son still there? Yeah. . See him quite often. Has he still got his long hair? Yeah. He's never married has he? He's got some bird hasn't he? Polly Polly. sob story. . I wonder if Polly's back at work yet. Doubt it cos it was convalescing for quite a while. See Len's bought a new car. He's got a Metro. Has he? Not Lennie next door. No, Len. new car. What, new one? Well Newish. I don't know what reg it is. Looked quite nice. Mind you He had the Golf didn't he, last time? The white golf. Something else he's put that teak door on. Oh what's it like? That wood Quite like quite like the colour of it. Mm. It's quite nice. But he's he hasn't put brass handles on it, he's put silver handles on it. He hasn't. It looks really, I felt like saying to him, Sid you should have made that brass then I thought no, I won't. Oh what, a brass lock and all that? Erm silver lock and all that? Yeah. Has he fitted it quite well? Door fits. Mind you I expect people could come round here and say The actual door's alright? Oh yeah. Get him to fit When I'm older I'd love to be a dancer. Pass a few exams and I'd do lots of shows and festivals when I've won money for my dance school. In the future I'd like to have my very own normal house with a husband and two children. I would like to have a Golf G T I car not too simple and not too flashy. I'd like to be a dance teacher Mum where are them Contax when I grow up. And in my spare time You're taking Benolin as well aren't you? I would like to do dancing and swimming . No. Can I take Contax then?. I suppose it won't hurt, one. I said where are they? In the cupboard. Did you hear all that. Next to the, where the cups are near the Shall I start again? Put the kettle on. Mum shall I start again? Go on then . When I'm older I'd like to have a dancer no I'd like, no when I'm older I'd love to be a dancer. I'd pass a few ex a few exams and I'd do lots of shows and festivals and I've won money for my dance school. In the future I'd like to have my very own no very own normal house, husband and two children. I would like to have a Golf G T I car not too simple not too flashy. I would I'd like to be a dance teacher when I grow up and in my spare time I would do I would like to do dancing and swimming . Mm. That's very good. Then what else you gonna write? Dancing and swimming. two three four five six seven eight nine ten There's over fifty there. Six. Eighty six. How many you gotta have? How, would G T I be one word? G and one word T And I. Oh that's seven eighty nine then. So how many have you got to have? Hundred. Erm. It's got you need to write a hundred words or less what you want to be older and plans for the future. Yeah, hundred words or less. That's enough then. And how can you finish it? Er what's the last line? Read the last line. In my spare in my spare time I'd like to be, like to do dancing and swimming . And I also enjoy lots of other sports. Erm And I also enjoy, E N J O Y. I know how to spell it. Oh. Lots of other sports. I've done say eighty We was on eighty seven weren't we? Five. Eighty five words. That should be enough. So do you feel okay about those results then? Bit disappointed? Know you might feel a bit disappointed. That's what Tracey said. That's why she to say to you that she's on your side. Why? But what did you think I'd get? I thought you'd get highly commended or honours. What's that? A calculator . Oh. Dad gave me that ages ago didn't he? Dad did? Nice one. Dad got that better one from Yeah. that Mothercare but I use this as a spare one. That's why she phoned you up. All the ones that she'd got, that got low like Hannah and all that she's phoned up first. In case the o other ones they're sort of nasty to them. Jenny's been nasty to me. she won't. I know she won't be there but she, I bet she will. what will she say? She says what do you get? And I'd go highly commended and I'll go, I'll go what do you get? And she goes honours and I go we well done and she goes What, with her lips? Yeah. Yeah she will but I said to Tracey I said one day Carla will beat her and she said I know she will. And I'll do that. What? I'll do that. I mean I'm Tracey's surprised that Jenny got honours. So am I. Tracey's very surprised. Cos she didn't think she would. And like well I said to her I said well then Sandy would have put it down to the fact she did that bad in her ballet. Has to be a reason . But it's, I mean like Tracey said are you disappointed? I said well no I cos I said I expected a co I think she deserved a more than a commended. But I said it's always the way when you think it's a good examiner she or she, she gives you bad results and when it's a bad, think oh an awful examiner I mean look at that one where you got that really tough examiner and you and Jenny was the only two that got honours. But I didn't that Michelle Yeah and I know that but then when I get the same as Jenny she goes to Leanne if we beat her yeah? She go she goes up to Leanne. Yeah but it's like Leanne. I don't know how Leanne always gets it must be the fact she's slim. But Tracey said they obvious this examiner has obviously looked Got any scissors? for slim people. Which is wrong. But that's not very nice though, is it? No. But that's what Tracey said. That's what happened with her. She went in with sl slim girls and they all fa fail passed, and Tracey failed. Because Tracey was But that's not a very nice thing to do though. Because as they shouldn't fail you if you're fat. I'm not exactly fat. No, you're not fat. It's just that I'm big build. That's right. Mum can I have one of these? Can I use one of these? What is it? No they're yours aren't they? Where's your toys? Upstairs? Dunno. Oh back. Look at this! Nineteen eighty six. Oh But she said you know, and what annoyed her really she kno , she knows how much how hard you've worked for this exam. I know. I tried to do it really well because it was my last grade. But she, but she even said to me while you was in there she said Carla's got the advantage of the fact that she's so good at . But that's not the point really. No but yeah but the thing is Carla, be honest with you if you'd got honours again I mean, you imagine I mean thing is I'm happy for you for what you've done. You've done well to get that. It's like Jennifer you've got to look at it she's gotta keep up now all the time, honours. You've got honours for your tap. Yes y I think you'd be more disappointed if you, if you'd taken the tap this time and you'd come out with a commended. But Tracey just very cross with her marks. It don't look good on her does it? Only just passes. This last results she only got one pass. I won't get the award will I? No. But award anyway medal. Junior tap, yeah but you'll get the junior tap. Got the junior tap and the senior tap. Yeah but you'll get that next year again. Why? Because you got honours didn't you? In grade three. No cos junior tap was for grade three. Have you done grade four tap? Yeah but you won't take it by July will you? Or would you take it in May? You take gold in May don't you? But Tracey thought Lisa was good. She thought she'd get a good mark. She said she does stretch her body. She has come on Lisa hasn't she? She's better than Emma. Mm by a long way. I said what annoys me I said er but Emma and Lisa haven't even practised. I said, I said thing is I said last time everybody thought Carla was gonna get highly commended or honours do you remember? Everybody said you were the best. They all said oh you'll do it, you'll get the best. And you never got the award last year for it. All of them got highly commended didn't they? Hannah and all that lot. Annabelle. Mm. And you think the drop on Hannah. Grade three she got highly commended. And grade four she got a pass. So look at the big drop on that one. Least you, that's what I said to Tracey, at least you haven't dropped your mark. If you stay on the same mark or higher it's good. Don't wanna take this exam again. It's poor old Stephanie I feel sorry for. Why? She, I mean I don't think she's that bad and she only ever She goes to pot in exams. Does she? She always only ever gets a pass. Highest, guess what her highest mark is? Pass plus. Is it? That must be horr she must feel And that was horrible. Every time, well she only got a pass. Mm? She only got a pass. Where you o where you going? James? Has he gone? No. Oh. upstairs for half hour. why do you want the kettle boiling anyway? I wanted a cup of tea. When we gonna do the Christmas tree then? Eh? When we gonna do the Christmas tree? At the weekend. I found, I told you I found a bag of didn't I? I showed you. Ow! What's the matter? You got something in your eye? It's just . Shall we have a cup of tea? What do you say you're never gonna do exams again? Yeah. Don't be stupid. That's what Tracey said. You mustn't get a downer cos of it. Downer? Because she said she's you know it's not your fault. You deserved more. Examiner don't think think so, do they? Mm stupid examiner. It's like Tracey said the morning marks were all the bad ones. Worse in the morning. She said erm her marks were all over the place. The worst marks she'd ever got from an examiner. Of course Tracey why she's upset is because she said that she had this examiner That's alright. See you soon. Bye. Bye. Oh! He's made me a cup of tea! Little darling. Thank you. Spoilt. Why you got Jean's shoes on mum? Because I've had my slippers on to wear. You were saying? What was I saying? I dunno. Yeah cos don't you remember Tracey on the day of the exam?we'll do alright here, she likes my style. And that's, Tracey's really upset. Cos she thinks now because she got passes just mainly passes she thinks that her school's, looks bad on her school. She only normally, she said all I ever get normally is Elizabeth on a pass and she got more passes than anything. And I said well I suppose it does look bad on you. She said well at least I , you know she said if I thought they'd get only pass I wouldn't put them in. Cos she pulled two, two out didn't she? What if she'd put them in! What did you think Helen would get then? Pass or fail. ? She didn't put no effort in it. She kept . What about Marie? She worked really hard. She deserves that commended or highly commended. Michelle? Commended or pass plus. Sara ? Commended or highly commended. Yeah cos she's coming on. Cos she don't normally get a high mark does she? Oh gross! What about Stephanie? Oh. Eh? What about Stephanie? Commended. You think she deserved that? Mm. It's like she weren't good. She really worked She tried. She really worked hard. Yeah but Tracey said it's all the ones that have worked hard and tried have got low marks. And the ones that haven't really bothered and weren't that good at it Who, Jenny? Yeah. She thought she'd only get commended or highly commended. She's just she she she's just said on the phone, I was so shocked she got honours. So shocked. That Jenny did. Lisa yes. She thought Lisa would have done. Emma pass plus or or pass. No. She thought Emma might have got a commended or highly commended. She put no effort into it in the exam. She, she was Yes but talking. She might have put me down for talking. I weren't talking. Emma was talking to Lisa and she looked at me. She could have put me down for talking Mm. and I didn't talk. Cos I was in the middle of Emma and Lisa and they were chatting. Right Lisa was there I was there and Emma was there and them two were leaning over. And when she looked and she looked at me. Perhaps she thought it was you chatting. perhaps she thought, that's it, I bet she writes it down chatting in the exam. Eh? And Emma wouldn't say would she? Mm? Emma wouldn't say would she? Emma's like ? Father Christmas what you doing with a father Christmas? Where do you get that from then? That's Paul Daniels innit? Yeah. He well ugly. Auntie Linda was saying that Auntie Jane's been in hospital again. God! She ain't had another baby has she? No. They reckon she's got a hernia or something now. That's what you had. Yeah, no. This is a different one. Who's are the first? Well I dunno. Tracey then Linda. And she said that she keeps her dog indoors now because she won't You know their big alsatian? Who? Auntie Linda and Rob's dog. She keeps their dog inside? Because she said because he won't let the postman come round the back so she has to keep him inside. Then when she was talking to me someone knocked at the door then Auntie Linda was saying he won't bite you, he's alright. he's so big though. I think she was frightened that she was gonna get be bitten. What present have you got left? I've gotta get you another one dad two and Lisa. Is that all? Got Tracey Mm? Eh? Got Tracey and Avril's present. Only Avril's. Tracey was getting her that brooch. No it's horrible. I thought we'd give her that . Avril said she loves Marks and Spencer things. She loves those lacy things you know by and do you remember I I bought for them for Christmas I bought her a tissue box with that beautiful lace cover? Well Tracey can have that. I don't want a tissue box. Want er coat hangers. Or the make-up bag if you want. Make-up bag. You can choose which one. What've you got Avril then? One of them things you make. Oh yeah. Pincushion. I'll give her one of them. One of what? Those things. I'm gonna try one of these round ones. Can I have that ? No cos they're right at the bottom now. Please! Mm! Shortbread! What are you doing out there? See how many ? Mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm See how many teddies you can spot. One two five. That's it. Look good don't they? Oh no come here then I can talk to you. at the table there. I was just thinking I bet that Helen was pleased then cos she must have passed mustn't she? That who? Helen. Who always fails. She doesn't. She's only failed once. Oh has she? Yeah. She's got highly commended once. Oh has she? Yeah. She hasn't got honours though. Oh that's good for her cos she tries doesn't she? Mm. You know Tracey said Angela, her friend that taking exams. She said what? Tracey said to you that you know Angela who runs around with Helen? Oh yeah. She won't be taking her exams. I'm surprised! Has her mum pulled her out? Or does she still go? She still goes. St she still goes? I kept thinking like did you definitely didn't talk in that exam? You swear on it? Swear on my life. Emma was talking to Lisa. What was she saying then? I, actually I did say something. I said to Jennifer erm under my breath I said go and tell her. Oh yeah about her foot. Mm. So what was Emma and Lisa saying then? I didn't take no notice. I was watching Jennifer dance. Think it was it weren't on , weren't on that one. I think it was on the jazz. That and that goes, that music's loud. She didn't hear them? I wouldn't have thought she'd hear them would she? She turned round and looked at them. She looked at you she said, you said. I know, she looked at me then. Yeah I don't think she she would have that because see what the report says when it comes through. I shouldn't say to anything to Miss cos we don't know what she got. Cos there was only, there was only three grade ones weren't there? Oh no there was loads weren't there. We only saw Helen and that lot didn't we? Mm. And Elizabeth. And who was the other girl? Helen. That's who I thought did well. Was she good? She's the best one. Perhaps she did. Perhaps she's the one that got honours. She never took an exam before though. Ooh probably not then. She does with her other dance school. She gets honours. But is, is not good at tap? She's just beginning. She can't get the taps. What did she get an honours in then? Ballet? Modern. And bare necessities. Good facial expressions. Oh. Like she sort of goes erm like you know you do that? Most of them just keep, just go like that yeah and she sort of goes mm mm mm mm she sort of sways. Oh I didn't know she she really when she said give it some. Who? Your examiner. She didn't say give it some. Well she said something and you said something, you really sort of Oh yeah the ribbon. The ribbon. gonna be lost tomorrow innit? Quarter pa you're gonna have to have your dinner at seven when you come home. Wouldn't do me a sandwich? I'll take that with me. And a drink. I'll get you, I'll go shopping. Take that with you. Well it's not, if you I'll pick you up at quarter past four. Well we don't leave till sort of ten to five do we? Mm. Five to five. I've got the rest of these to make. Gotta set them up in the machine room. Yeah they're all done. I think they look quite good don't you? Mm. Hanging up like that. The best one is The Christmas tree? You opened your calendars yet? The best one is that train one. And then I've got the big soldier. Another father Christmas. Cos you've got one haven't you? Eh? You've got one sort of father Christmas in your bedroom. on him. Yes you have. No I've just got a plain teddy bear and The one you made, father Christmas. Yeah a big like that but nothing just have a plain one, and two little kids. God knows where they are up in my bedroom. You know the father Christmas I've just found and it's on your white bookcase. Oh that. Oh yeah they I know what you was talking about, what you made, yeah. No you made that. The father Christmas. Yeah. No, did I? No you did it and stuffed it and all that. I stuffed it all and sewed it up. And you put it together. That's right. Must get the tree down and we can do it at the weekend . What time's on a Saturday then? They stay till five o'clock. Oh do they? They don't do nothing. They're meant to go home at four thirty. And they just hang around till five? What and Amy and that? Oh yeah Amy has to stay until half past cos her mum picks them up then. Oh picks them all up together. How do their ballet at ? Get honours every time. Do they? You might be still asleep then. Just Don't wanna go to school today. Why? Sick. Tough. You don't wanna miss now. You haven't got much more to go. You got your pantomimes you're going to. What's your pantomime then, Jack and the Beanstalk? Is it? I think so. I'm gonna go and see two anyway. Yeah I know she's got two. Nan said about a father Christmas. She wants to take you over to Debenhams or somewhere and go and have tea. And I said well Carla will show you where to go cos she said is there anywhere to get to eat? I said there's two nice restaurants isn't there? Yeah. In Debenhams. Mm. That er I, there's no lists is there? Cos I oh yes there is. Yeah and don't you, now in in Debenham they've got a special lift. It's all got lights. Sparkling. And it's called erm father Christmas grotto and toyland. That's right at the top innit? It's at the top but the lift you pick up at the bottom now. Put an extra lift in. And, or it's one of the two lifts they had and they've made it er toylands. And it's all got Christmas lights and And one of their floors have they made into toyland? Yeah right at the top. That's right at the top. I've been in there. It's wicked! Is it good? They've got Nintendos you can play on. Gameboys, Segas Linx. What's Linx? It's a game. It's called Linx. It's just like Gameboy but it's longer and it's got better games on it you know. It's like ninety nine pounds ninety nine p. Ooh. But it's worth it. batteries. I blowed my nose. Don't look at it! What! Mum. What? Just give it a little tap. It should just stop buzzing then. Did you hear there was a bomb at Littlewoods? No. Littlewoods? You know in Guildford. No London. London or Kingston's Littlewoods. London. That was the big one we used to go. Yeah London that one's had a bomb in it. Did it? Exploded. Did it explode or? Exploded. Was anybody hurt? Annie was twenty minutes away from there. Who? Anna-Marie. Was she? She saw it. Oh. When you got rugby then? Today Friday. Do you like it? Yeah it's brilliant! New im , it's new image. What do you mean? New image. It's better. Who does it then? Better. Two blokes come in. Oh two chaps actually come in? Yeah they're professionals. They played before. They played for England. . And I could join a new image club if I wanted to. It's brilliant cos you get well dirty. That's what I like about it. What, getting dirty? Yeah cos you touch you gotta touch your hips. You're allowed to if you got the ball and you run to try and get a try. Which a try's gotta cross the line, you have to throw it. No you can't throw it you have to like jump on it like that and you go weee and it, and if, and if someone gets you on the hips you have to throw it to everybody. And you can't throw it frontwards you have to throw it behind. Do you mix? Boys and girls? Yeah. It's both sexes. So it's alright. Martin, he's faster than the bloke . Is he? Yeah. What Martin ? yeah. He's fastest. He'd be faster than me at long distance, by a long way. You know Martin? He comes first in all his races. Oh him. Yeah. The skinny little chap. Him. Oh he's a fast runner. Is he gonna I expect he is isn't he? Cos Louise does. Yeah. What girls are going to ? Helen Katie Helen is? Yeah. Katie Sarah Selina, think Selina is anyway. Erm I don't if there's anybody else. Elizabeth 's going there. No she's not, she's going to Winston. Norah's going to Winston. What Elizabeth 's going to ?? Oh she's going to that other one ain't she? Isn't she? What? Elizabeth 's going to do my hair? Used any of that side? No I and then the other side a gotta be And that's it? And how much do you get? What time do you leave work? Twenty past three. shopping? Car broke down on the Eh? The what? I sat about forty minutes in the traffic jam. then? I thought I'd go to Sunningdale. I thought it'd be quicker cos it's there it's shop. Waitrose there. There's Waitrose at erm Was the actual shop empty? It was! Empty, not a soul. Mind you I got a right dipstick decided wanna talk about how she cooks her frozen s cauliflower. Who's this? Woman on the desk. depressed by the time I got home. Thought want me to go and do my shopping. How much do you spend? Eh? Do you spend quite a bit? No I just it just, I'm normally in and out aren't I? In half an hour. Yeah. The shop, I mean there must have only been about five or six people in the shop. Cheers dad. Any news on the Tesco front? No. Not really. Same old thing. No letters or anything. Did you sleep right through then last night? From five till one? Yeah. Got up for a wee in the night. That's about all. phoned up yesterday. She's Tracey phoned up. She's written off and complained about the judge. She just weren't happy with the results. Very disappointed with them. And she, she never has any fails. Majority more than over half just got passes. Had three she went into erm Tracey placed that she come out honours and Lisa highly commended. And the other two commended. And they three came out with honours and she came out with a commended. She said that she penalized her cos of her weight. She wasn't a slim little tiny girl. She says it's all wrong. So she said I've written, I shouldn't do she said but that she'd written and complained about it. Lose a bit of weight . This is it see. If if you're tiny and skinny and petite. You, it's like Leanne I mean she's not a as good dancer. It's like Jenny, like Tracey said Carla was the best at She even said apparently to the big girls on a Monday there's gonna be a lot of heads turning a lot of chat going on when Carla comes out. We're looking at honours this time and she just said last night she, she said that's why I phoned you she said cos I just can't believe it. She said cos she was absolutely brilliant . You couldn't fault her out there. And even the woman in the examination the pianist she actually tells Tracey if some of them are bad or whatever. And she came out and she said that Carla she said, she said will get honours. She said she's absolutely brilliant she said you couldn't fault her at all. And Tracey said that's the only thing she can think is the fact they were tiny, cos Emma and that all are, tiny little skinny things and Jennifer. And she said it's the fact that she's carrying the extra How come I get honours in tap then? With the top major examiner. Dunno. I honestly don't know. It's just ce yeah but certain, like she said isn't it? Certain judges. I mean look at the adjudicator at . Oh he's ridiculous. Mm. Some you win some you lose. Mm. That's what I said to her I mean and Tracey wanted her because she didn't want her to feel upset. When she goes in tomorrow night and all three of them have got honours and she never. But I said to her she never gets higher than a commended cos, she knows it's cos of her weight. Yeah but they should . Yeah but they, there's people like that Carla. But I said there was a lot lower than you got only passes in your grade. But it's the same in the tap weren't? I was thinking today you and Jennifer got honours Emma got highly commended and Lisa got commended. Weren't it? I suppose sh and we all thought Lisa was better than Emma. She is. But evidently it's what, what the actual you know examiner's looking for. God I don't believe it. He's got a and slippers on. Right I'm gonna go and love you and leave you I'm afraid. See you tomorrow. Good life innit? Do you see our teddies we made? Yeah. Take it easy . See you tomorrow morning. We'll be having our tea. Did we have meat pies today? Yes. See you later. Time did he get home? Didn't Jenny phone? No. Taken all your medicine today then? What? What are you due left to take? Erm take er doctors capsules at seven. Yeah. And another Benolin at eight and that's it. You didn't take nothing else? I take these, I've started on today. What are you taking, how many ? There's a mixture of all of them there. mixing They just help the cold. Cos I wanna try and sort mine out cos after tomorrow I can't take any more. I can't take them on Friday. I didn't think he'd be cooking tonight cos I knew they weren't shutting the I nearly forgot to tell him didn't he wonder where I was? That's what No cos I told him you'd gone out. Gone out and not coming back? How many Benolin you had today? Three. You gonna take one more? Do you take it four times a day or Eh? Four times a day innit? Yeah. Only had three. Taking one more at eight and another You done any revision today? Not really, no. Ooh. You must try and get down to it tomorrow Lee. Yeah. If you ask James though if there's anything you need to know. Or anything you need for Monday he could let him kn , he could let you know. Mm. Cos they won't stand if you sort of say oh well I was away last week they won't take that as an excuse. Yeah but there's nothing else that I need. I've got everything. And what about that maths then? Did he give you that? And Italian thing? So maybe he's playing with Tom all day today? Not been a boring day really. I went to sleep so What you been doing then? You asleep when dad come in? No I was awake at just before one. You asleep when he was here? Yeah. Well didn't he wake you up? No. Because he went out and he kept, when he went to do his exercises. Where was you then? Upstairs? When? Asleep? Yeah. What, not on the couch? No cos he was doing his exercises. Yeah? But I left you on the couch. Yeah I weren't asleep on the couch though. Oh did you? No, I said I wasn't asleep. Oh. You were just resting then. Then you went upstairs did you? When no. When dad went to do his exercises I did. Oh I see. Cos he wanted to do them in here. And then you woke up about one o'clock? Mhm. How long did he come in then after I phoned? Dunno. Don't know what time you phoned. About ten past one. Dunno. Might have even been in then. Oh no Did you have your he weren't actually in then. No he weren't. He said he'd gone . Yeah. got in about half an hour after you phoned. Can I watch it? Put it back on now. What the London ? Mm. I wanna watch that. You can't cos I'm taping Big over it. What time's Big on? It's stupid that London . All it is is talking because We haven't got it on tape any more anyway. You looking forward to Greece? Yeah. Who's going then? Just year seven? Carla? Yeah. Carla. Can you talk. I am talking. Is it just year seven. Yeah. Haven't you got any then? I've done it. When? At school. How come you do it at school now then and not bring it home any more? Carla. Carla. I'll turn the T V off. What? I said how come you do it at school now and you don't bring it home any more? Because I did Ugh! So what did she erm say about your canoe thing you made. Alright. Oh did you bring it home? No. When are you seeing James next then Lee? Dunno. He wants me to sleep round his Friday night. Oh I very much doubt it. I said. and yeah I will. I can't see your dad letting you. Not after you haven't been in school all week. Why? He said I could go out Friday. Friday when? This week. Friday night? Yeah. When did he say that? Yesterday. What did he say then? Well no he said it the other day didn't he? He said probably going out until friends . But he thought you was going back to school didn't he? You might have to phone Gill tonight won't you? No you speak to her. Why? I'm not in the mood for speaking to her . Well she'll probably phone anyway won't she? That's what I mean. As we haven't so she might She won't have time though. Half past nine. lucky to catch her in. That's what I mean. We won't catch her in. She might phone about half past nine when she comes back from the hospital. Well you never know, Vic might even phone if she can get near a phone. I mean they've got those tr , phone trolleys. I bet James gets your cough. Do you? She said , she said she's gonna have a go at you I beat you. And she said erm and she said do you know the best thing to say? Say yeah, yeah. Like I said to you Yeah. What you've gotta do is you've gotta let Tracey you say oh yeah I got commended! Brilliant innit? And she goes to me like a silver plate and they just turn it into gold as soon as they walk in there. And she goes you just go in there and our plate gets turned to stone. That's what she said. The thing is you do, you go through life and you think life's not fair. You think, god why aren't they doing it? Why am I doing it? Why have I gotta work and they haven't? But they don't, I mean they just don't some kids have gotta sort of work at it and you're one child, like Lee. I mean look at James. He don't do no studying and he gets A's for maths. Lee's done all that studying. Weeks and weeks and weeks and he gets a C. James just I mean like now you say to James are you studying? No. But he'll come out with an A in maths. And Lee will have done all that revision and he won't come out with an A. She's, I was saying to her she's too upset. She won't talk to you. Just put her, put the phone to her ear so she can hear my voice. She said you wait till she's in the she said. She said she's gonna knock them dead. Because Who? You are. She said I know she's gonna shine in that. She said you just tell her to carry on. She said she's great being my teacher she said for my little ones. She said the other night . I didn't do it last week. What? Cos my, I I I like this, you know . I do all the new ones. Mm. Don't bother to turn up? Yeah it's only the good ones. Who were going in for the exam and I weren't allowed to help them. Well yeah but you will this week? Yeah. That's what she said, don't she's not giving up. She's the dedicated one your Carla. She said I know she worked hard. She said people won't be nasty she said because everybody's upset . She said not only Carla. Jennifer's not though. Oh Clair,Cl Clair? Yeah but she's got an honours that she hasn't deserved. And like Tracey said How does Jennifer know that? Tracey wouldn't tell her would she? Oh Tracey will talk to her, yeah. Will she tell her? She she'll talk. No she won't s , she'll just say. The marks are very bad. She . I don't think Jenny will Carla. She's not that I think she'll know how upset she is. Tracey said you just tell Carla and you let me hear anyone say anything. She thinks the world of you. Tracey does. And she said I'm really glad she talked to me now she said. She said I thought oh my god she's not gonna talk to me! And I said well she wasn't. I said she wanted to but you you didn't know what to say and you yes mm mm yeah Yes . But don't you feel better it's off your chest now? one! Can I have one more? No. You're not meant to, they've got antiseptic in them. They'll knock you out. Saturday. I said to you you gotta get these Christmas presents wrapped up for the party. Who for? You've got your Christmas party. Jenny's horrible to me. She's not having hers. Just ignore her. I mean why don't you just if she says why I mean she'll obviously have Sandy there and Sandy'll say why isn't Carla speaking to you? I shall say because your daughter's being nasty. She won't. She won't I guarantee it. Cos Tracey will say look you three got honours. I don't want you bragging and being bigheaded because the other marks are low. Ooh look at him! Do you get your homework done? No you didn't. Don't tell lies. I've done it! When? I swear to god. You'd better have. Yeah I have. I don't like lies. I was in a really bad mood at school. You've been in a bad mood all day. I know. Why? Dunno. Now what did I tell, see part of growing up, right if you've got problems specially you talk. I mean you look at, see I I've had, I felt like when I was coughing at work I felt like sitting there and I thought I can't believe this. Why me? Why why is god being horrible to me? Six weeks I've been ill. Why? He's gi given me this, given me that. I get everything that's going and now god's given them to me. It's not fair. But it's life. You have your ups and downs. But look at Jennifer. Have you gotta wear glasses? Have you gotta wear a brace? No! You're lucky. What side's Specials. Where's the dials? The dials . There. I'm gonna tape The Specials. I've got the tape in. I'm gonna watch Special, oh no. Oh we're watching Specials and we're taping Tom Hanks. Oh is it? Tom who? Hate this music. Goes doo doo doo doo doo do do doo. Very annoying. Ugh. you'd better not tell Elizabeth tomorrow. Is she good at her tap? But look at that. What does sh , what grade is she in? Grade one tap. At at nearly twelve? So I should think she should get honours shouldn't she? If she started being funny saying oh I got honours and you got commended just say yeah let's see what you get at grade three tap then. Just say I'm not in a babies class at twelve. That's all you've gotta say. But you just go in there mate. Sod them all. That's what Tracey said didn't she? What did she say? Mm What she say? Told me just sod them all and just don't say sod off to them but just say sod them all. Just ignore them. Turn your back they're talking to you say they've been nasty and then they come back and talk to you. Just turn your back half way through it. Yeah. And you're good at that. Well. You're good at doing that aren't you? Oh! Oh! Hasn't started yet. Shh. What is he doing up there mum? He's got Taking his medicine I think. That's Cliff innit? Yeah. doesn't even go with the music. Does it? Stupid. Listen. he goes ooh at the end. He goes ooh at the end. Listen. That's me. That's me. Hallo! Hallo. How are you? Alright. What have you been doing? Been upstairs. Have you had a little snooze? No. He's getting better aren't you? Why lie? Cos you're not upstairs. This is Specials here Oh just leave it . Let's play it now mum. Yeah but dad wouldn't let me upstairs . tomorrow. I take it that was the tape wasn't it? That was there? It had those coloured people on it. Mm. You've got all red eyes there where you've been crying. Look at them. Great big red blotches. Why's she been crying? Just been talking to Tracey. Over these marks. Marks that she has Tracey said that she's just gonna be one of these the judge either likes you or he don't like you. And like I said to her it's like James. He'll go in for his maths, won't study, go in for his maths and get an A. You'll study like mad revise like mad and come out with a C. If I'm lucky. If you're lucky. And like she said two and Jennifer's walked in there and they're halfway there already cos they liked the look of them. They're just like James. They'll go into that exam without doing, alright they dance the same as you They haven't practised or anything but they don't need to. They just go in there and they come out with it. But they'll come unstuck later on. His family it's like dad if he wants to better himself at running he's not a natural at it. He's gotta work at it. We all have. His family, everyone in it, we have to work at what we do. It don't come easy to us. Like Tracy said they're b born with a silver spoon in their mouth. We're not That's it. Part of life and growing up. But Tracey knows you're dedicated and it's silly giving it up. I'm not giving it up. No. But saying right, I'm not going tomorrow night. Go and show them. Like Tracy said sod them all. If they're nasty to you ignore them. It's like Tracey said with you're I mean she did her gold star she was waiting for the letter to come through, Tracey. Thinking she got honours. Opened the letter and she failed. Who? Tracey. She couldn't believe it. Tracey? Yeah. She'd give it everything she's got. She said I worked for weeks and months on that exam. And she failed it. And do you know what age she took grade four? And got a commended? She said she didn't start getting erm high marks and a commended when she, when she was fifteen. Fifteen sixteen before she got a highly And how old are you? Eleven? Exactly. Eleven years old and you're in elementary now! Pre-elementary. Pre-element yeah! Look at Vicky. You're not much lower than Vicky. And Vicky's nearly fifteen. Yeah. You'll get better than all of them. You'll be teaching them all soon. You, like Tracey said she had to I'm teaching already. Out of the school, how many of them got in at Sound of Music out of those hundred kids? Did Jennifer get in? Did Emma get in? Think how Emma must have felt. How many of them Carla can dance Her two sisters got in and not Emma. Oi. How many of them can dance sing and act? Exactly. That's what exactly what Tracey tells her. Lisa. One. She's this is the first time she's got honours for an exam Carla. She's always gets a commended for tap and modern. That's what Tracey said. Emma gets away with it but Lisa doesn't. Taken all my medicine now. Had your Benolin? Can't have much more to take. Have you? About two Just keep er go now. What Yeah. And then that's it now. What about the other No it's all done then. You look hundred percent now. You going tomorrow? Are you going up are you going away again? Got to go to Greece. Don't you wanna go to Greece? Greased lightning. Oh greased lightning . No but I wish we could go in the morning so Why? Cos I, I want Want what? I wanna be home. I'm gonna pick you up at quarter past four at the school. at ten past. Well I'll probably be there at four and I'll go in the village. And then come home here if you've got any homework do it take a sandwich. We've got food out there now. We've got satay sticks. I can't take my homework with me. Don't chew that sweater please. Mm. Then I've only got half an hour and I wanna go through my tap. Eh? Go through my tap . You don't need to go through your tap. No I mean Oh yeah. I do that new bit cos it's hard that I go through it about eight times. Jenny just sits there and Leanne. Well that's alright. That, Tracey knows, why, who, who's got picked to help teaching. They haven't. Have they? It's you the one that's been picked. God, is that short or what? Bends over. If she bends over . I've got know that I'm going to do both the maths Eh? at high level and general level. On what? advised me revision Yeah. So I'm going through all of them doing all the exercises. Both levels? What just in case they put you down on maths. Well I'm only gonna get erm half of the general level book done by my marks for maths. Gone through two chapters tonight. Did he say anything about, anything about the geography? James? No. And what about the french? What about it? And you not had no revision for that? No. You ought to, you can help each other on that. her talk it. She had a conversation with Jean the other day. What? french, didn't you? Jean loved it because, mind you she forgot a lot of the words didn't she? But then she seemed in the end she she picked it up. But she was as , we were quite surprised how much she could say. What was that one asking if you'd got an animal? asking. Do you hear her? And I'll tell you he says I'm not telling you what to do. It's entirely your decision. Do you wanna swap round and have that little one? Pass me the butter please? big one. This one? Yeah. Should have Thanks. Any phone calls today? No. None whatsoever. Right bear in mind you are getting over a cold. Yeah. Getting over a cold, right? Mhm. And you've been far from very well. And you are going to be going skiing January the fourth which is not many days away. Right? Now my opinion if any I would say don't sleep round James's house for one. Right? For the simple reason that you won't go to bed till late in the morning or whatever which would knock you back. Right? Mm. The other one is phone Pete up and tell him that you've been off sick for a week can't play football this week. Right? Then next week, have the weekend off. Still go out. Don't stay in, I'm not saying stay indoors, you can still go out and next week get yourself you decide in yourself to do your own training. Go to football training by all means. But how can I cos I've got Exams every day. Yeah. School work. But I've got work every day. But I still come home and do it. I don't wanna do it. It's if you want to do something. I'm I'm I'm it's like I said to you I'm not telling you to do it. But I tell you something now when you go skiing on January the fourth I've never skied but I can assure you this James I know for a fact is going to special lessons. Now if you're not fit and you're just getting over a cold now so there's no way your fit you're gonna be well an absolute disaster out there. And yet I tell you what and if you go and play football on Sunday and you're not a hundred percent fit from this cold you've lost all next week as well. But er I mean that's, that's your decision. I was you're old enough to I'm just . Whether it's a hard match or what it's up to you. It is isn't it? Tell me something then. If it, if it was a match on a Tuesday this week, would you have played? No. So all I'm saying is try and get rid of the whole not your tablets will finish up about Saturday or Sunday. Tomorrow. Get, and I mean like I said to you today you've still got your cough. So is it gonna do you any good really? No. Alright it's gonna upset Pete. And you probably ain't gonna wanna leave your friends standing around on a football field. I'm not trying to, don't get me wrong I'm not trying to say pack this in and do that. All I want to see you better back to school and back to your fitness again. I'm not being a you do as I say dad. It's up to you mate. If you think that you, if you feel that you're alright to do it, by all means do it. And you can say well look I told you so dad. If you've still got that cough and that it's just Do you think you'll be fit enough, you're fit enough to play Lee? No. I know for a fact I'm not cos all I've done all week is sit on my bum and watch telly and eat a lot. But by Sunday do you think you will be? But training . Yeah. How can I get myself fit for Sunday? You can't, it's like if I went out swimming and that on Saturday or even to ride. Couple of swimming lessons ain't gonna get me fit for Sunday. It's not the football that I'm worried about. It's the skiing. No but I'm saying I'm not gonna be able to run around for eighty minutes being . Alright I'll get through it I won't be running about as much as what I usually do. And next week you'll be off again. Possibly, yeah. You're doing Pete no favours. Cos Pete putting out a good, alright Pete might say if say you, you just rung up to say look Pete I'm sorry . He won't tell the players and he'll say alright I haven't got a team so he can cancel the match. I'd give him a ring tonight Lee and get, then he might have time to ge chance to get some players. Will they? You've gotta get your think but if you don't get yourself right you're gonna be in a right two and eight. The difference last week sit down getting up to go to Blackbushe. Then standing out on that football pitch. Didn't do us a lot of good did it? No. The other thing we've gotta find out about is er while we're on the subject is what insurance has he got for skiing? Not taking the fact that he's gonna have an injury or anything but I'm just saying in case something does happen. Mm. If he could speak to Gill Mm. to find out from her if it comes to it we can perhaps ask the old lady if she can set something up where I know what we've gotta do this week, or next week. What? Your passport. Yeah that's yeah. Otherwise you're not gonna get it done. Thought it was already done. Eh? I said I thought it was already done and the form was sent away. We can't, you've gotta go and do it in person. We can't get it. You've gotta be there and sign . At a local post office. I'll phone Pete up tonight and tell him. I don't think he will be well enough. I, I'd love to see him play football. But he'd be a complete idiot to do it. He's doing Pete no favours. He's doing himself no favours. Next week, get him like I said to you Lee, you've got to train doesn't matter, it's no good having me He might put, cos I mean Craig's out isn't he? He's banned now till February. So he's got to try and get some other players hasn't he? No he'd have enough players. Who? How many? Well he's got Stevie hasn't he? He plays and . He'll play those two instead of you and Craig. See the weekend out on your tablets. And when your back to school get back and do it in a serious way. It's only for three weeks till you get your skiing over with. Then you drop back into your usual slot but I tell you what if you go skiing and your not hundred percent fit or as fit as you can be from what I've, what I've read about it and that your gonna be in a right two and eight out there. usual things. other ones. It's like James, if you imagine what time do you have to get up this morning? Quarter to two? what? Your tablet. Oh I was awake at quarter to two. You won't be going to bed till three o'clock round James's house. We will though. We did last time, we were in bed by half ten, no eleven. twelve. Only I've heard it all before. Anyhow I, I saw to you I'm not, I don't care what you do. You can go and play football. And what was you going to sleep round there for then? Probably gonna spend a night revising. Cos we're, we're not gonna do much revision Saturday, alright Saturday night maybe. But Saturday during the day we'll probably be out. All we're gonna do is just revise maths. Maths and physics. Cos we both wanna do well in them. But I need his help more in maths. Alright I can revise still in maths but it's not the same cos when he was round here the other night he's like in a way like the teacher. He seems to know what he's doing on everything. Even if I loo look back over my work and I still can't understand it he'll explain it. Well see how you feel. If you, I mean if you're only going round there and you're gonna go to bed at a reasonable hour. Well I'll see how I am tomorrow. I'm not saying anything. As long as you're not going up the village No. and hanging around the street cos then that will I know. We'll have to try and get this suit organized. Mm. What about you're, you don't, no I suppose you don't feel like, will you be too tired to take him down tomorrow when you finish? No cos that'll muck his keep fit up and that then. Couldn't he do his keep fit first? Why don't you go And then you could go for a swim over, go and do his suit and you could have a swim at Guildford. bring him back then. He don't wanna go swimming. Why? Well cos he's got a cold now! Yeah I was gonna say we could pick it up He can go in a cafe. in the morning. Are you going to Guildford tomorrow in the lorry? You gotta go in. You gotta try that suit on. Yeah I know. See how you feel tomorrow. If you feel I'll You wanna get your school shoes too don't you? Well if not you can come with me Saturday look. If you sleep round James's I'll be going about half past nine It's alright otherwise you won't . No but there's late night shopping after school. When? Next week. We've gotta get this suit sorted out. Yeah I know the suit. Oh what, for the shoes? Yeah. Mm. Excuse me. cos I've gotta take Carla one night next week. I promised her I would. If you can find me out Vicky's I'll ask her how what the insurance is. Mm. It's like you say your mum'll be able to get won't she? Well of course for a week. So if you gotta have someone on a skiing accident they've gotta be helicopter lifted off you'll end up with thousand, four hundred thousand Over these erm past couple of weeks we've been looking at er some of the questions in the New Testament, we thought a couple of weeks back of the question that Jesus asked his disciples, do you think I'm able to do this and then last week we looked at a question that the disciples put to Jesus, that time when they came down from the mountain and they found the re , three of them came down with Jesus from the mountain of transfiguration and they found the other disciples with a man who and a, whose son was demon possessed and er they had been unable to help him and the man or brings his son to Jesus and Jesus delivers him and afterwards the disciples who had been so helpless put the question to Jesus, why could we not cast out this demon and this morning I'd like us to look at another question, we've got another one today and one God willing next week, er and the question is, is found in Luke chapter thirteen, let me just read a few verses, because of course it's, it's not just the questions, it's the answers that are important as well in Luke chapter thirteen, gonna read from verse twenty two it says in Jesus was passing through from one city and village to another, teaching and proceeding on his way to Jerusalem now that gives us a clue in that, because Jesus only ever went to Jerusalem apart from when he was a boy, he only ever went to Jerusalem once and that, after since that time, and that was when he was crucified, so Jesus was now on his way to Jerusalem, it was the latter days, the latter weeks of the life of Jesus, he was making his way now to Jerusalem and someone said to him Lord are there just a few who are being saved and Jesus said to hi , to them, strive to enter by the narrow door for many I tell you will seek to enter and will not be able, once the head of the house gets up and shuts the door and you begin to stand outside and knock on the door saying Lord open to us, then he will answer and say to you I do not know where you are from, then you will begin to say we ate and drank in your presence and you taught in our streets, and he will say I tell you I do not know where you are from, depart from me all you evil doers, there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth there, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the profits in the kingdom of God, but yourselves being cast out and they will come from East and West and from North and South and will recline at the table in the Kingdom of God, and behold some ar some are last who will be first and some are first who will be last , so it's just that question then, let's remind ourselves that is put to Jesus Lord are there just a few who are being saved now this particular question, this, it's a very solemn and searching question, it belongs to a group of three questions found in the New Testament which have to do with a matter of salvation, the first one is, we won't look up the reference and that for time this morning, the first one is the question that the disciples put to Jesus, who then can be saved, that's in Matthew, chapter nineteen, then there's this one in Luke thirteen, are there few that be saved and then that very, very personal question that was put not to Jesus but to Paul by the Philippinean jailer in act sixteen, what must I do to be saved, three questions in the new testaments about salvation, who then can be saved, are there few that be saved, what must I do to be saved, you know as Christians you possibly found yourself, asking yourself the, the same question that these people put to Jesus, why are there so few Christians, look about our own town, think of your own neighbourhood, your own street, think of the place where you work how few there are who are followers of Jesus Christ, how few there are who have committed themselves to Jesus Christ to of receive him as their saviour, who've have accepted him as saviour, how few there are when you compare it er to all the others who are rejecting him and er who are living their life regardless, how true it is that the great majority of people seem in, in this present day to have little time for God or for the things of God, they've got time for all sorts of other things, but God and his claim on their life is crowded out, how many there are like that, how few there are who have submitted to Jesus Christ and have received him as their saviour or so it seems. And our Lord in the words that we've read gives a very solemn answer to that question in the, in those words that we read a few moments ago and his immediate answer to the question you know are there few that be saved, was to say many, this was in the following verse, many shall not be able to be saved, now does that mean that only a few will be saved, that there's only a few people who are gonna be in heaven that Jesus Christ came and died on the cross for about a handful of people, a small percentage does that what it, is that what it means, well lets look and see what the bible has to say, in Matthew chapter seven in verse thirteen and verse fourteen, this is what Jesus says enter by the narrow gate for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction and many of those who enter by it, for the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, but few of those who find it any way in the same book, in, in Matthew in, in, in chapter twenty two and in, in, in verse fourteen, listen again to what it says there Jesus is speaking he says for many a called, but few are chosen but when we've read those we've got to look up what else Jesus said, remember a few months ago the passage we read from Luke thirteen and they will come from the East and the West and from the North and the South and will recline at the table in the Kingdom of God , they will come he says from all directions, we work and hold and these two scriptures intention, we've gotta compare one with the other, then we'll read also John in that tremendous vision in the book of revelation he would he says what he saw there, in chapter seven verse nine after these things I looked and behold a great multitude which no one could count from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues standing before the throne and before the lamb, clothe in white robes and palm branches were in their hands and they cried out with a loud voice saying salvation to our God who sits on the throne and to the lamb, a handful of people, tiny minority, John says it was a great number, a multitude which no one could count from every nation, from every ethnic group, from every tribe and, and, and, and race on the face of the earth there in God's heaven how grateful you and I should be, if we are among that number, it's God's grace, it's not that we've deserved it, it's not that we have been privileged by some genetic er process to have been born in a so called a nominally Christian country, it is all of God's grace, it's not what we have done or what we are, but we have been saved by his grace and just for a few moments this morning, I'd like us to from this question that was put to Jesus to follow on and if you like get five propositions from it, it sounds complicated but it's not. Few there be, are there few that be saved, well what does the bible say about this, first of all it teaches abundantly clearly that all may be saved, God is not partial, God has no favourites, he doesn't love you more than he loves any body else, he doesn't love me more than he loves you or you more than me, he doesn't love you more than he loves ah any other racial group or any other ethnic group, he loves us all the same God so loved the world that he gave his only son Jesus Christ, here in his love, not that we love God says the apostle but that he loved us, the old testament profit reminds us that he has loved us with an ever lasting love, who, this was one of the hang ups that the Jewish nation had, they thought that they were the cats whiskers, he chose them, but he in fact didn't love them any more than he loved the, the hitites, the parasites, the gergasites and all the other ites, he loved them all the same, God is not partial in his love because he is love, if there was any body that God did not love he would actually cease to be God because love is not something that, that God does, you and I do it no matter how loving you are, or how loving you think you are, you are not love, you choose to love somebody and you love them, there are times when that love goes very thin sometimes, perhaps because of events that have happened, it can actually come to an end where that love dies, you withdraw your love God can't do that, God loves us as we've said with an eternal love, a love that will go on throughout the endless ages of eternity and it will not in that sense make any difference to God love, make a lot of difference to you and to me, but it will not make any difference to God's love whether we spend our eternity in heaven or in hell, he will not love those in heaven any more than he loves those who are already, who will be punished for ever in hell, because God's love is eternal, it didn't start at Bethlehem, it didn't start at Calvary and it doesn't end when you and I die, as love is eternal, so God has provided salvation for every body and he offers salvation to all who will come to him in repent and and seine fe and except his salvation, you see when the Lord Jesus Christ died upon Calvary's cross he died to make salvation available for who, for every body, you see he didn't just lay your sins on Jesus, listen to what the old testament profit Isaiah says, there in that tremendous fifty third chapter, and, and in what it's in verse six,all of us says the profit like sheep have gone astray, each of us has turn to his own way, but the Lord has caused the iniquity of us all to fall on him , whether you and I reject Jesus Christ or accept him does not alter the fact that our sin was laid on Jesus the sins are the most awful person you can think of were laid on Jesus Christ, Jesus Christ paid the sins for, for, for, for men like Hitler, he paid theirs, the price for their sins, as much as he paid the price for the sins of somebody like St Francis of Assisi So God is not partial, it's clear from scripture that all maybe saved, he made salvation available to all in that same book of Isaiah in chapter forty five, verse twenty two, it says look unto me all the ends of the earth are being saved said the Lord, in Romans one sixteen Paul says I am not ashamed of the gospel because it is the power of God onto salvation to all who will believe, and the verse we've already quoted John three sixty, for God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that who so ever believe in him should not perish, but have ever lasting life and Paul when writing to Timothy says he gives his own personal testimony he says this is a good and a faithful saying, it's worthy of every body accepting that God desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth, so it's quite clear that all maybe saved. The bible closes there in Revelation chapter twenty two with that invitation, an invitation to a select you know, an invitation to all, there almost in the, in the last few verses, verse seventeen, the spirit and the bride say what come and let the one who hears say come and let the one who is thirsty come and let the one who wishes take the water of life without cost, the invitation is to all, so it's quite clear that all maybe saved, but it's equally clear, a second proposition that all will not be saved and this is a solemn's teaching of God's word, the bible nowhere teaches the doctrine of universalism, that everybody's gonna go to heaven, it doesn't teach that, it doesn't say and it does not teach that ultimately every body will be saved, there are plenty of those around who'd teach that today, but the bible doesn't teach that there are those who will tell us that the sinner and the saint, the man who has no thought of God or no love for God and the Christian that all be gathered together on the final day, you all have another chance, Jesus never said that, the bible doesn't teach that, it's quite unscriptural. Look what Jesus says here in Luke chapter thirteen, in verse twenty four, just let me pick a few phrases out, verse twenty four it says shall not be able in verse twenty five there was their cry Lord open to us and in verse twenty seven their response depart from me the result in verse twenty eight there was gonna be weeping it wasn't gonna be universal, they were not all gonna be saved, they were not all just gonna be swept in in the last day and didn't really matter, you're all buddies together now in heaven, not at all, this surely what Jesus says here makes it very clear that all will not be saved if at first we've already mentioned in John er no sorry verse further on in John three this done verse thirty six he who believes in the son has eternal life, but he who does not obey the son shall not see life but the wrath of God abides upon him , there's no suggestion there of being ultimately brought in to God's heaven and ultimately being saved, no it is the wrath of God abideth upon that person. One could go on and pick many other scriptures, you know in the erm the New Testament not only were there those three questions that we mentioned earlier on about salvation, but there are three unanswered questions in the New Testament in Mark chapter eight, Jesus asked that question of which there is no answer,for what shall it profit a man if he gains the whole world and looses his sole or what shall a man or a woman give in exchange for their soul , Jesus didn't try and answer, there is no answer to that question, then again in, in Hebrews chapter three, er chapter two and verse three there is an unanswered question,how shall we escape if we neglect so greater salvation , and finally one other the apostle Peter, he asked the question in, in chapter fo , first apostle in chapter four and verse seven seventeen for it is time for judgment to begin with the household of God and if judgment begins with us first, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God again there is no answer to that question, simply because the answer is so horrific, it doesn't bear thinking about, but thank God all maybe safe, all will not be safe, but all maybe safe, God has provided a salvation that is available to all and if we are not safe it is because we choose to reject his s , his offers of mercy, so we thank God that all may be safe, but the solemn fact remains is that all will not be saved, well that leads us on to, to this third proposition, not only that the bible teach that all maybe saved, not only does it teach that all will not be saved, but it is quite clear that some will be saved whom we did not expect to be saved, we can be quite sure about that because judgment doesn't rest with us, way back Abraham says perhaps one of the most important statements in his life when he said there in, in, in Genesis chapter eighteen and we actually sang the wo tho the quotation in the song we just sang a few moments ago where he says will not the judge of all the earth be right, judgement is not yours and mine, that's God's prerogative and the other song that we've been, the song that we've been singing, that song by faber there's a wideness in God's mercy lets be honest we are so narrow with our mercy, our gra , our expressions of grace is so limited, but there's a wideness in God's mercy and faber says it's got the wideness of the sea, there's a kindness in his justice, which is more than liberty, David knew all about that when he was given the option, he said oh I'd rather fall into the hands of God than into the hands of men, I'd rather that God dealt with me than that my fellow man dealt with me, because with him there's mercy, with him there's grace, with him there is, there is long suffering and there's compa compassion and there's love, and faber goes on with the love of God is broader than the measure of man's mind and the heart of the eternal is most wonderfully kind, now that's all very well for the song writer to say that in a hymn and it sounds nice and it's, it sounds good but is there a scriptural authority for this, is it really true, or is it just a nice song that we sing with, it does us good because we feel it's a nice, there nice thoughts, well, surely we have it in the passage we've been reading that there is there is a mercy with God, there is a kindness with God in ver in verse thirty of that chapter behold some who are last will be first and some who are first will be last it's quite clear that some will be saved that we did not expect to be saved, and you can find example after example of this, it was a tremendous surprise to the onlookers when a very sinful woman annoyed to the feed of Jesus, it was a tremendous surprise to the Pharisee who rejected God, although he was such a good man, to find that the, er sorry to be rejected by God although he was a good honest upright man, and to find that the sinner was accepted by God, it was a tremendous surprise to the people when Zacchaeus who named you to be a sinner, an open twist there an evil man was saved by the Lord Jesus, you could save salvation has come to this house, it was a tremendous surprise when the law breaker who was dying on the cross beside the law Jesus was saved and went to be with him, with the Lord in paradise, it was a tremendous surprise to the disciples when Jesus preached the gospel and revealed himself to a gentile woman, who was an adulterer seven times over but he did and she was saved, it was a tremendous surprise to Ananias when the Lord revealed himself to on the road to Damascus and saved him, but he did, it was a tremendous surprise to the Apostle Paul that the Lord had saved him at all, he never got over it, he called himself the chief of sinners, but God's grace, God's mercy had been revealed to him, you and I when we get to heaven are in for a few surprises, the grace, the mercy of God is far broader and wider than our imagination, we'll meet a lot of folk there that we didn't expect to see that leads me to a fourth proposition, not only will some be saved that we did not expect to be saved, but it's clear that others will not be saved who expected to be saved there's a passage in Luke thirteen, verses twenty five, let me read them again one the head of the house gets up and shuts the door you begin to stand outside and knock on the door saying Lord open up to us and then he will answer and say to you I do not know where you're from, then you'll begin to say we ate and drank in your presence, you taught in our streets, we know you Lord, we rubbed shoulders with you, we went to church, we experience those things, we knew the answers to the re to the questions but he will say I tell you I did not know where you are from, depart from me all you evil doers those words make it quite clear, here, there's words of Jesus, there's references to those who profess, to know the Lord Jesus Christ, but who do not in fact know him at all , they know bits and pieces about him, they've seen him, you know it's in its immediate context, they had seen him in the street, they had heard his teaching, there maybe those who had been fed by the, by the miraculous er multiplying of the loafs and the fishes, they had seen the miracle, some of them may have been healed by Jesus, they knew lots about him but they did not know him and he says I do not know you how many folk there are like this, they expect to be saved, perhaps because they go to church, perhaps because they've got Christian parents, perhaps because they read their bible, perhaps because occasionally when they're in trouble they prayer, they've been confirmed, they've been baptized, that, that they're good, they're honest, they're not rogues, they wouldn't do a, a, a bad turn to somebody, not deliberately, they're nice people but they, they don't know the truth of what it says in God's word, they don't know the truth of Romans three and verse twenty because by the works of the Lord no flesh will be justified in his sight for through the law comes the knowledge of sin, doesn't come the forgiveness of it, they don't know the truth of Ephesians chapter two verses eight and nine for by grace you've been saved through faith and that not of yourselves it's the gift of God, not as a result of works that no one should boast, for we are his workmanship created in Christ Jesus for good works which God prepared before hand that we should walk in them, they don't know the truth of er, er of Titus, chapter three and, and verse five where, where the apostle Paul says there,he saved us not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to his mercy , how tragic it is to expect to be saved, to think you're going to heaven and in the end to find that you're not saved and Jesus says they'll be many like that in that day. On that final day there will be many like that, little earlier on in the book of Titus in the first chapter Paul says in verse sixteen they profess to no God, but by their deed they deny him and all of this leads natural to the final fifth proposition not only does the bible teach that all may be saved, not only does it teach that however that not all will be saved, not only is it true and clear that some will be saved and we do not, do not, do not expect to be saved, not only is it quite clear that others will not be saved, who we expected to be saved, but finally it is quite clear that no one will be saved except by God's way, and God's way of salvation is very simply by repentance and faced. We have already read some words from Isaiah, let me just turn you back to Isaiah again, this time to chapter fifty five, verses six and seven. Seek the Lord while he may be found, call upon him while he is near, let the wicked forsake his way and the unrighteous man is thoughts and let them return to the Lord, for what's gonna happen, for he will of compassion on him and to our God for he will abundantly pardon those words were very quoted from Acts, chapter sixteen, when that Philippine jailer said Lord what must I do, sir what must I do to be saved and there Paul timac believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved this is God's way by repentance in faith that's presented in Jesus, he is the only saviour, not your works, not my works, not our good deeds, not our religious observances, he is the only saviour, did he not say himself I am the way the truth and the life, nobody comes to the father but by me. Not only is Jesus the only saviour but he's also a presence saviour not for the future or the passed, but he is there now and he says now, Paul to the Corinthians now is the acceptable time, now is the day of salvation, not to be put off, not to wait until you're older until this is settled and till that's done and you've had this experience or that experience, now is the accepted time, he is the presence saviour, he is not a saviour for you tomorrow, you don't know what tomorrow will bring but he is a saviour for the present for now, also he is a complete saviour in Hebrews seven twenty five he is able to save forever, those who draw near to God since he always lives to make intercession for them and finally not only is he a complete saviour, but he will actually save you, not the person beside you, don't worry about that he will actually save you, there in Romans chapter ten, thirteen,for whoever, for whoever will call upon the name of the Lord will be saved and so the invitation's to you and it's to me, it's to us as individuals, are there a few that's gonna be saved. In a sense that's not the real question, that's not the important question, the really important question as far as I'm concerned is will I be served and as far as your concerned, will you or are you saved, well it's, it's up to you, it's up to me because he will save you, forever who will call upon the name of the Lord will be saved. Let's close shall we with a song of, of commitment really, it's number four hundred in the er songs of fellowship and were gonna sing it to the first tune, oh call for us I believe, but let's look at it again. We know also the son of God has come and has given us understanding so that we may know him who is true and we are even in his son Jesus Christ, he is the true God and eternal life. Right that's it, fine. Let me just give you a little illustration that might help, you know in thinking of the erm the fusion of the divinity, the divine nature and the human nature, erm is it Clarke Kent, is that the guys name on television, you know the character, you know the guy that walks around you know he's the boy next door type figure with glasses and all the rest of it, he's no macho figure that and then in a transformation take place and woof goes flying through the air doesn't he, what is he, he's Batman isn't he Superman Superman is I don't know erm, well same difference any way, but you see this is it, he's not, you know, in that story, in that, in, in, in, in that sort of nonsense thing, he is not the same character at both times, he hasn't got, when he's walking along the street as Clarke Kent he hasn't got the ability to whoosh through the air as Superman he's Clarke Kent, not so Jesus, he wasn't Jesus divine one moment, Jesus human the other but they were perfectly married at all time from his, from the time he was, he's conception took place, so he wasn't one thing one moment, you know and one thing the next, but there it was a perfect marriage if you like, the two, I was gonna say becoming one so that they were invisible, you couldn't say of that's it that's the human nature of Jesus, that's his diviner it ju , because the two were perfectly married, they were fused together so they really they became one. A couple more re verses er in Two Corinthians, five fifteen, and one John chapter two and verse two. And as you die broad that they wish Right so, you know, there are those who would teach that Jesus he would die for our sins and he's forgiven us sins, but only those who come to him, Jesus died for the sin of the whole world, for every man, woman, boy and girl that has ever lived or ever will live, he died for the sin of the whole world, not just for those even who lived after his death, that's why it talks about in the Old Testament people like Abraham looking for that day, and so Jesus who in, when he died, because he's eternal, so we've got the problems with time, God hasn't got problems with time, he's eternal and so his sacrifice, the sacrifice of him on the cross was effective for Abraham as it is for you, it was as effective for David as it was for Paul otherwise Abraham would never of had his sins forgiven because what happened with all the sacrifice with all the little lambs that were killed and all the goats and all the rest they only acted as a covering for sin, didn't take them away, it covered them, what for, until the moment when Jesus would come and would take those sins away and so when you think of David's sin, his adultery and his murder, how does he get forgiven for that because Jesus died from the cross and he takes upon himself David's sin and he takes upon him Abraham's sin and Noah's sin and Adam's sin, just as much as your sin and the person who will be born in ten years time their sin also, all our sins er as Gloria just read there from, from one John to two they were all of him he has died for every one, well that's his humiliation, hurry along quickly now his exhortation, the period from Jesus's resurrection onward is referred to as to the, as the state of exhortation, now what does that term mean, well as Jesus according to his divine nature has always been, he was always every where, now in his human nature, before,be , sorry it's not, it's not on that one, but before he, he came to earth, he was every where, he was God, he was, he was omnia present that means he was every where at the same time, but he takes upon himself he's su , he's, he's human nature and he takes upon himself the limitations and when Jesus is walking down second avenue in, in Jerusalem he's not in Nazareth that's why there were times when people came to er, to, to, came rushing out because they heard that Jesus was passing by, see he wasn't there resident with them, he passed by, now he's gone back to heaven and where is he, he's in heaven, he, er whereabouts, where do you think Jesus is now, that resurrected body that was glorified that has gone back to heaven, where do you think it is Gone back to the Lord ain't he. well let's read, Ephesians one, nineteen to twenty three, somebody's got that, let's read that bit right, so, he is there as er Jean er has read to us, seated at the, at the father's right hand, he's there on the throne, but Paul also says, talks about erm in the last verse there which is his body the fullness of,the fullness of him through Jesus who feels all in all, by the holy spirit although the glorified resurrected body of Jesus is on the throne, by the holy spirit he is everywhere , that's why he's with you and he's with me and he's with a folk in Timbuktu and in Honolulu, he is every where by the holy spirit, so now thinking of his exhortation again, as the God man, Jesus now fully and always makes use of the divine powers and attributes that are his, all power belongs to him and it's because that he says to his disciples you're to go into all the world and I am with you because all power is mine, all power, all authority is given onto me, therefore says Jesus, because of that you can go because you're going in my strength and in my authority. Has somebody got Matthew twenty eight, verses nineteen and twenty? Go there all people, every where and make them and teach them to obey every thing that I've commanded you and I will be with you always to the end of Right, I've just got a, two or three minutes, I've just wanna get something quickly done before we, we close and I'm not gonna look up all the references, because your get them for next week any way in, in the house group, but, now, now in a sense it's difficult to understand to take all this in after all his God and were people, how do we understand Jesus, it's, it's difficult, however knowing something about them does help us to understand something important, it helps us to understand what happened when Jesus ascended, when he went back to heaven, you see when Jesus arose from the earth the, the disciples who watch him it says there in Acts chapter one, they saw him go up in to the heaven, up into you know in a cloud, have you ever thought what that really means what on earth was it, they saw him go up in a cloud, can you image a sort of great clouds coming and dropping down over the mountain top there and was suddenly whisking Jesus up and then watching Jesus going up in this cloud into the sky, I don't really think it was quite like that, have you ever wonder why it was that Jesus went up in a cloud, you see what was he doing, he wasn't beginning a journey to some far off place in the universe, some distant corner where God the father was, he wasn't doing that at all, what do you think a cloud can you, give any suggestions of what a cloud might represent because very often a lot of some of the language in the bible is picture language and it, it, it speaks as something else, what do, what do you think a cloud, does any body have suggestions of what a cloud might speak to us about, or speak to us of, sorry, power yeah, any thing else no hang on that, no, no, yeah, what is it just the thing of the moment about cloud, what does it, what does a cloud represent, Ben suggested power, any thing else vapour, rain, any thing else aha yeah, well let me just read you two or three verses from Exodus, chapter forty, this is what it says then the cloud covered the tent of meeting and the glory of the Lord filled the tabernacle and Moses was not able to enter the tent of meeting because the cloud had settled on it and the glory of the Lord filled the tabernacle and throughout all their journeys whenever the cloud was taken up from over the tabernacle the sons of Israel would set out, but if the cloud was not taken up then they did not set out until the day that it was taken up, for throughout all their journeys the cloud of the Lord was on the tabernacle by day and there was fire in it by night, in the sight of all the house in Israel and if you were to turn over to kings you've got a, you've got a similar thing there with the dedication of the temple and as Be Ben was saying the power really it's the it's the presence of God, the shine, the glory, that cloud of, and so what, what, what catches the Lord Jesus up is really the glory of God here he is, the, the riseness, the glorified Christ being called up into heaven in the, in the glory, what he's been glorified, so he withdraws his physical, physical presence from one place here on earth to present there on the throne and yet by the holy spirit to be every where now Jesus then, he didn't cease to be truly man at either his resurrection or at his ascension, he stays man, God, the God man all the way through and it's still true today he is the God man today and that's important for you and me, think of the very worse experience that you have ever had in your life, think of the very worse experience that could happen to you, with the exception of you know that of, of say total failure of some awful sin, the worse thing, maybe a loss of someone dear to you, someone very close to you, er, er, a bereavement, the most awful experience you have had well he has gone through, he has known that experience, he has, has tempted in all points like as we are he knows our frame, he remembers were dust and he has been there and it is a man who has experienced those same experiences that you and I experience day by day, year after year, it is a man who has gone that, who has walked that path, who is in heaven interceding and praying for us, we'll stop there cos time has gone erm we'll stop there, we won't go on otherwise I'll get into trouble During this past month some of the questions in the New Testament, the first one we looked at you remember was that question that Jesus asked of his disciples, do you believe that I am able to do this, then we looked at a question which the disciples asked of Jesus, why could we not cast it out last week we looked at another question, are only a few people going to be saved and this morning I'd like us it's the final one of these questions not that there aren't other questions in the New Testament and scores, scores of others but were just looking at four er throughout this month, I'd like us to look this morning for one at, for a few minutes, at one that Jesus asked of a man who confronted him, I'd like to read a few verses from Luke chapter eighteen, Luke chapter eighteen I'm gonna read from verse thirty five, it's the well known account of blind Bartimaeus, Luke chapter eighteen and verse thirty five and he came about that as Jesus was approaching Jericho a certain blind man was sitting by the road begging, now hearing a multitude going by he began to inquire so doesn't matter. Yeah you've met, have, am I the last? Well I wouldn't say you're the last but I have actually seen all of the others. Right. Erm I've seen Deborah, Ray and Cynthia. Erm so yes in a sense. Right. Erm i the discussions have been interesting. What I did was prepare a supplementary form to the one that we had at the management team meeting Right. which lists the activities erm that we'd referred to before, on the original note Yeah. and adds a few. And I have with each of the other discussions added other Yes points. Yeah. So I've got a number, I mean I started with, had had about fifteen, we've now got about ninety six. Ooh! Erm they'll probably all common off quite a bit. Yeah. All I'm gonna do after this is reproduce the list with all of the points that each person has agreed. I'm not saying to you or any of the others, no I don't agree with that as a, that's for our debate later. Right. This is the list. And I'll look and see what ways we can collect the data erm to provide the er the intelligence if you like. Right. And then we'll have the debate. But at the Right. moment it looks to me as though s if we do a spreadsheet it'll be something like eight foot six long . But we'll only really worry about the last page if you Mm. like, the last three or four columns. But as you say it may well be that erm we can look at it and say well really that factor compensates for that one, Yes. in which case we can disregard because it Yeah. But obviously that'll take a little bit of time through discussion won't it? Yes it will, yeah. I'm not sure how happy we will be able to that but we don't, we obviously have to try. Mm. Erm now. What I'd like to do, Yeah. is I'll just run through the additional points and these on the list which have been raised by the others, and Right. if you want to comment on any of those while we're going through, or perhaps cross them off your list. And then we'll go through your list. So you'll know what the others have already said Okay. and then you can present yours. Erm Well I wouldn't er I don't expect most things will completely but anyway we'll see. Yeah. Yeah, probably yes. Er I mean I've the number of part time centres Do you want this back? No you can comment on that No right, okay. if you would Sue. And then just put on the top. Erm number of part time centres, half day sessions, Yeah. the uniform agreement is that they should be graded up point seven five of a day. Yes, fair comment. Wh which seems to me perfectly fair. Yeah. And to be honest I wouldn't have argued if anyone had said whole day. Yeah. You know cos it Yeah. it varies a bit. Erm the number of further education colleges in the division Mhm. would include satellites like erm Northallerton. Askham Bryan Right. in the south, Right. Yeah? Yeah. In the north it would include Northallerton Grammar School and the Y C A P annexe. Yeah. Erm and I mean perhaps Bedale Agricultural, but I mean that, that's Mhm. erm they had a number of F E students seen in the last year. Yeah? That's full time and part time. Right. Age seventeen to nineteen. Do you want me to comment on that as we go through or No if you Right you're just explaining it to me? You could if want to. Yeah. If you want to add things then we can yeah. Okay and then we'll, we'll go back on to it okay. Erm the number of full F F E students seventeen to nineteen erm full time and part time erm, there are Mm. in a division. Yeah. Yeah? So that's you know greater percentages than those you've actually seen, that's hundred percent and what you've seen is whatever it is. Right so you Yeah. that's actually an additional one that you've put in? Yeah. Yeah. Cos you'd raised that point. Yeah. Yeah. Erm the number of sixth form colleges in a division, as a separate institution. Right. Yeah. I mean not everybody's got them. Number of sixth form students erm seen in the last year. Yeah? Yeah. I've got a scribble behind it, oh annual report I'd get that from. Right. And the total number of sixth form students in a division. Sixth form students in a division. Right. Number of special schools in a division. Mhm. And the number of special schools' students and pupils, pupils seen, in years ten upwards. Yeah? Right. I'm not saying, in here, we also want a column of the total number of special needs No. pupils, cos we see them all. I mean if we don't we only gonna miss one or two. Yeah, this is a complicated one isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. Now these, this next band, the annual mileage ones, the sickness, and the form seven projections for the next three years, that data will come from Alan. Yeah. Yeah. Erm and this is going to be the area of horse trading I think. Yeah. Er I mean your point about how, how much time is spent in travelling a small number of miles in York. Mm mm. Ray made the same argument for Scarborough, because Mm. says the whole of the eastern division because it's all a hol and it's Yeah. got the longest season etcetera. This where Mm mm mm. we're going to get some debate. Mm. Erm and We well how Mm? has the sickness come about Keith, because I mean Well because if, if we got, if we say you've got a certain number of members of staff, and each full time equivalent offers you two hundred and twenty two point eight working days a year. Mm. Well if the sickness rate in one division Mm. is significantly higher Mm. than it is in another, pro rata Morale is presumably lower. Well there may, well yes possibly, or they may have a much higher morale because they've got a much more benevolent management style . Yes, and have more days off. Yes, yeah . I mean it came about because, and I won't name names, one member of staff for example has had an astonishing amount of time Mm. off sick. And in some organizations they would not be working for us any more Mm. or they'd have been in a different position Yeah. where sickness wasn't a such a crucial issue. Mm. Erm and I mean I've had a recent bereavement, I mean I, I lost my mum at Christmas and got three days leave. Mm. This person's had to three and a half weeks. Mm. And not from bereavement but because of the, the consequence of the traumatic shock of their eighty eight year old father passing away. Mm. Erm it's not fair on that division. No. So if we notice Ah. significant Right okay, I mean it differences. erm it's a case of whether I, I would've expected that, that an analysis of that over a significant period of time w would even out, really. It might, but if say we said over a year, and we said there're a total number of fifteen members of staff, Mm. yeah? And the average time off l fifteen members of staff is fifteen times two hundred and twenty two Mm. point eight. What percentage of sickness has that Mm. total number got? I mean see whether there, the sickness loss as a percentage of your total of staff time is very different in one Mm. division to another Mm. over year but I mean in theory Yeah. you could go back over Yes. several years. But it really is no indication as to whether that's likely to be the case in the future isn't it? No, not as raw data but yo you then go to use it as intelligence, I E Mm. go back and look at, so like this division was Mm. five times more sick leave than any of the others. Yeah. Was it all concentrated in one person? Yeah. Or all across, if it's all across the, the division then that's a major problem of organization or something. Mm. But if it's a single member of staff, it's a, it's only a difficulty isn't it? You can Yeah. solve it Yeah. theoretically tomorrow. Yeah. But I mean I didn't want to exclude anything anybody's referred. We'll debate it when we're all together. And obviously if one person's I think it got more sick time than another they're Yeah. going to be more keen on that area of debate than, than their colleagues. Yeah. Yeah? I, I, I find it a bit illogical Well I mean I found it almost as ridiculous as trying to sort of say, well half of my clerical staff are fairly incompetent so I think we should have a sort of incompetency rating for each of Yeah, fine but if, yeah but what we've got is hard data for every single member of staff and therefore every group of staff Yeah. on sickness rates On sickness and we haven't on and we haven't got a measure for incompetence but there's No. a reason why we couldn't have is there? You could No award everybody on appraisal process that's right you could. A hundred percent is efficient erm Yeah. and eighty five percent is less. Yes. So you could add up all your members of staff and see what your efficiency rating Yes. was. Er you know er Anyway I'm I'm interested in making this job last as long as possible but I don't think I want to go to retirement. Erm Ray raised an interesting point, loading for management time, for example Ray would argue that he spends a disproportionate amount of time travelling to meetings, more than any of the other members Mm. of the management team. Yeah? You might wish to counter that because it takes you longer to go a smaller distance. Well it d certainly does Right the of the reason is in yeah. once you include that it, because the more he's out of the office the more Sheila has to cover for him. Mm. Therefore instead of perhaps her being fifty percent case load, perhaps she Mm. should be thirty. Mm. Or whatever. Yeah? So it's a drain on, on the time, not just his but the knock-on effect. Ray's also introduced a holiday traffic for the Scarborough and the whole division Mhm. to counter your busy York. Erm the number of independent schools in a division. The number of independent schools serviced in a division. Yeah? Yeah. I mean servicing a school regardless of how many people there are is no no but it Yes so it's not, that's not on here is it? Right. will be when I've written Yes. them all out. Erm number of independent pupils, erm aged eleven to eighteen, in a, in a division, Yeah. and the numbers seen. Yeah? Yeah. Erm Ray's raised another point, it's about for example the further education network links that he has to service, the five N Y B E C groups he has to service, erm collating work experience on the database. Now my knowledge of that database is nobody should be spending any time doing anything with that, cos nobody's ever said it works . Erm the number of, in terms of work experience there's a, how many schools involved, how many placements do you actually help find or, or whatever. How many placement providers are there, that the careers service is actively involved in working with. It's going to be diffi On work experience? Yeah. Right. Because there's a wide variety of schemes operating across the county. I mean Trident is one and that has a certain effect. Erm I don't know but there may well be activities for the divisional staff outside Trident, related to work Yeah. experience. I mean you know Trident doesn't do it all. No th there So is an impact, it isn't major other than on me. Yeah, right, well that's fair enough then, too bad. And it's the bane of my life . Yeah. I I can't, I can't understand why we're involved in it in the way we are. Erm Mm. Y T providers. Yeah. Erm Y T providers linked to the division, actively . Yes. Yeah? So Yeah. they might be out of the divisional area but you, they might just as well be for the amount of you're spending on them. Mm. Yeah? Y T providers associations serviced, the numbers of Y, on Y T, erm numbers of applications for training per division. Yes, I'm particularly keen on that one myself Yeah. Erm yes Deborah raised that one particularly erm so this is Deborah's list now. Erm how many F E students there are with special needs. Yes, another one I'm very keen on. Yeah. Erm a point about the C L, as I E how much time does any, each of the divisions have of C L A time. Yeah? Erm obviously got our eyes on Jackie. Erm the ratio of clerical staff to management and the amount of time managers spend on central management activities. Yeah, so how much time Hang on. are you away from your division Yeah. because you're involved in county-wide or national things. County-wide things, yeah. And also how much clerical time is used up for non consumer activities in a division, like supporting those things you go off to London and Right, yes. Brighton and Bristol and Birmingham Right yes. to do. Mm? Yes yeah. Erm mileage per school, linked to sessions. Erm so how much time are you spending just going to the school? Now we can't get that from Alan's data because Mm. he hasn't broken down the mileage into how it's assigned. But if we get, we, it seemed to me I mean Deborah raised it and I think there is a way of doing it, which would be for example erm looking at the agreements, how many schools have got agreements? How many visits are planned in the agreement? Mm. Yeah? And each visit is a session whether it's a day or half a day or twenty Mm. minutes and there's a mileage from the standard mileage list for that. Mm. But again it's, it's another one of these things that makes it really complicated. It does. There's a lot more work to get it, we'll have to decide what Mm. we want to exclude. But yeah, I mean on something like that there's a potential for getting erm b benefits out of bad management as well. In that you know if you're Too right. allowing careers officers to do t to call in at schools on a regular basis rather than trying to do Yeah. more than one thing when they're there. Yeah,w w what I think it is it's a management control, Yeah. because if one division, we know how many, each d i if we've got for each division the number of agreements, the number of sessions, the number of staff we've got three common factors, different numbers obviously Mm. but if the ratio of visits to staff or visits to school is great, really great, significantly different in some Mm. then that actually says to that divisional manager, Yes. you're not, you don't seem to be using your time as efficiently Yeah. as others. Not that you're going to get more time because No. of this. But you could use it, yes Yeah. I understand, so in other words your research isn't actually going to tell us more than It's more a control than a, a, a gift. Yeah. It's going to tell us things over and above looking at staffing levels isn't it? Yeah I understand, yeah. Yeah if we agree that's one of the things we want to include. Erm, and I think that's it, yeah? Er Cynthia raised erm . Yeah that's the numbers linked to the division, erm Cynthia I mean I was only going to be looking at N Y C C and C S S S funded staff, yeah? Yeah. Because they were the part, they are the structure of the service as it exists at present. Yeah. Cynthia also wants to look at T F E adult, C S F, erm and see how they're distributed. Erm Mhm. I'm gonna have to look at how that can be done. Because Right. she argues, not unreasonably, that it does have an effect on the management It certainly does. because of the E O E particularly. I mean I have seven erm careers officers working with adults operating from York. Yeah. And people like Murray and Adrian are frequently through my door Yeah. and yet I've been, in theory I don't actually manage them. That's right, yeah. Plus So I I also think that you know I'm, I'm quite happy to see something like that maybe dealt with in a sense as a separate issue, because it's Yeah. very difficult to a to assess. Yeah. But er Mm. it's, is a factor, Right, yeah Yeah Mm. Erm and the percentage of part time staff to full time staff, which is one I raised. Yes. Because that has an effect on how you can use people. Erm Yeah, I was looking at that myself yesterday actually and er if I include three, three Trident staff, erm there are thirty five individuals Mm. in York itself Yeah. and only seventeen of them are full time. Yeah, and I don't now but i I mean I'm certainly in two I've been since there's people who've referred to the fact that they don't have those members of staff working for them at the optimum days, Mm. because people have to come in on meetings so these people h Yeah. have booked their working days, they're not the best in the division. I have an answer to that, you don't have any meetings . Well yeah, that's a very good answer to that, yeah, but when, how would you do research? Yeah. Erm but that was, that was er points that are raised so far Sue, Right. so anything you wish to add erm let's, let's Okay add. Well what I'd quite like to do is if we could go back over Mm. that Keith. Yeah. And there were a few things that you mentioned as you were going through that a you know I just really want to make a few comments on really. Yeah. Just to make sure that erm Mhm. y you're aware of my, my views really. Yeah certainly. Are you going to write them on, down, or do you want me to? Erm, do you want to do it because I don't really mind,okay and then as long as we agree what we've said. the, you've got, yeah w if we and we both sort of jot down what we've Yeah. then at least if you've got a record of what everybody's said. Mm. In the list that you sent out, in fact that one there, Yes. that does mention, cos as soon as I saw there were sessions at part time centres you know Mm. that's fine. Erm number of careers centre operated of course is significant for Deborah and I. In that we've, if we're talking division we've got two full time centres obviously. Yeah. So Ah, I mean yes you've only got one centre Yeah. at York, but you've got two centres in two oth you've got three centres in the division. Yes that's right yeah. Yeah and Deborah's got four. Yeah Yeah. Erm that's an area where the divisions are not identical. Yeah. Yeah? And it has an effect. Mm. If York had erm five percent greater number of educational institutions, there's still the same number of young people. Mm. That would have an effect. Have an impact, that's right. Yeah. What did occur to me though was, if you were looking in terms of half day sessions, Mm. you could actually sort of talk about, right a full time centre is ten half day sessions, two full time centre equals twenty half day sessions Yeah. and you could actually come up with an equitable total in terms of Yeah. contact time of careers Yeah. centre opening couldn't you? F if you used that sort of an equation. Because there is a, obviously Tadcaster is the only part time office. It's only open you know a half day a week. Yeah. But throughout the summer, now I, I ought to find out for you exactly how much time in total this does accrue, but we go to Sherburn Library once a fortnight throughout the summer. Yeah, that's fine. Erm th that's legitimate to include that. Erm so I, I need to Yeah. I'm quite happy to put the number of full time centres' weekly sessions Yeah. and then what we would simply say is that, I mean a day is one point zero Mm. erm and a half day in another location is point seven five Point seven five. Yeah. erm but I just don't, I'm not going to Yeah, yeah. argue I mean there's no, it's not for any one of us to, to come up No. with the final list, unless that one person is Paul or Alan. Yeah. Yeah. That's fair enough, yeah. But I accept the point fully and that you should include any Now that you do. how are you going to cope with er Selby C or how are we gonna cope with Selby College. It's the only tertiary college. Erm now Right okay. obviously we can't count it twice it's only one institution. Yeah. So we either, in terms of number of institutions I would think we probably count it as an F E institution, because this the A level is, is much smaller than the other F E. But in terms of F E students and sixth form students, what I would want to do is count the A level students as sixth form students. Yes. Yeah? Yeah. And the so I'm not sure Count all A level students as sixteen to nineteen Yeah. year olds. Because the percentage of adults over that age, presumably doing full time A level courses Yeah. is going to be minimal isn't it? That's right, yeah. Yeah, I think so. So I must check that the figures I've already given you, that's the way that I've done it. Right I'm not quite okay. confident that it is. Yeah. So I mean I don't mind which institutional type you call it because it's not so much the courses, it's the numbers of people and the numbers of places you have to service Yeah. isn't it? Numbers of clients and the numbers of service points. That's right. Yeah. Divide er yeah, I must check that out. Right th the erm I accept that looking at work carried out, which is what we've got in a number of instances, like Mm. number of F E students seen Mm. erm number of special needs students seen and so on. If there were a few weren't there? Yes. we got that. Erm again that's valuable information. But there is a major flaw that was pointed out when we had our last discussion about counting that alongside other factors, that you do a certain amount of work dependent on what your current staffing levels are. Were you to decrease or increase those staffing levels, then obviously that affects the amount of work you can carry out. There, there is of course a productivity rate that you could Mm. try and identify, per member of staff. But I mean that would obviously be very difficult Yeah. to do. Erm Yes there are services I know which are doing that, where Mm. local managers have got acc I mean f pe people using the account house or the erm one of the other major new computer systems Mm. where individual C S M R returns are entered by individuals Yeah. or the admin assistant. Yeah. And you can actually say that the average number of visits this week was Yeah. three hundred and two. Yeah. You only did five. Yeah. What, what do you say you're doing? Oh I was out at a school a lot. Not according to this Yes. you weren't. Yes that's right Erm and you can actually then produce a percentage. Yeah, yeah. So I, I, I think that that in terms of managing your staff and, and future staffing levels is relevant. Yeah. But obviously we've got to be very careful about looking at actual work carried out, bearing in mind that is What we're doing now. Yeah. All of this of course, particularly related to how many erm year ten and sixth form and F E students we see, is depend we're s talking about setting a structure from July of this year. , yeah. And in less than a year after that the Secretary of State may make it clear that our client group is radically changed and moved Mm mm. up the age range. Yeah. Yeah? Yeah. So all we're doing is what we're doing from July until Yeah. the new operating year really. That's right, yeah. The only other thing I'd say, is that the reason we're doing this is because we're facing cuts not Mm. not because we're looking at expanding the service. Mm mm. Yeah? So that's why I would tend to concentrate on what we're doing now. Mm. What is our work as far as we can prove it today. Mm mm. Which is based on historical data but Mm mm. only going back one year. But I mean take, for example, the two office the two full time offices in my division. Erm there are differing work practices which I try to erode but it is very difficult Mm. because obviously there's So you don't agree in the er local accountability theory then ? I, you see for example York College of Further and Higher Education is vast, it is, it is a very Yeah. big college. Yeah. And our penetration into that client group is fairly small because we're er er er staffing levels and so on yeah. got a reason yeah yeah. We know that as soon as we try and make inroads into that it, it would absolutely mushroom. Yeah. Er and w you know we've sort of evidence for that. Now in Selby for example, where I think a we'v Bill and I have tried to offset the balance a little bit, but in the past they have been better staffed. When we lost the I S C O posts, the small Mm. office of Selby gained a whole post Yeah. it was then really went into the school side, whereas the same effect in York was much more minimal because Yeah. spread much further. Yeah. Erm which meant that traditionally Selby gave a great deal more time to the college. Mm. In some ca centres that's justified because of the sixth form Yeah. element of that. Erm but I know that the true colleges it's a disproportionate service. Yeah. Erm and that is based on the fact that Selby have, were better staffed . Yeah. So they consequently did a lot more work Right. in the college you see. But the only, the only facts we've got, is a number seen, and the numbers that there are potentially there to be seen. Mm, yeah. Now I don't know whether we'd be able to get that I mean Mm. whether the colleges will be able to say to us we have got Mm. three and a half thousand people sixteen to nineteen Mm. on any sort of course. Mm. I mean if they did, fine. Mm. I don't think they will uniformly. I think we should know as a service But I don't know what else we could get. what sort of penetration we should expect to have. Yeah I, I fully agree. Erm I don't. No. But I think that's something we need to have. But if we know how many we're seeing in a, in an age Mm band, yeah? Yeah. And we know how many there are in the age band we can say we're penetrating to a degree of Yeah, that's right, yeah. five percent or thirty percent. So we've got all, I don't know what else we could add Yeah. at the moment. No. I mean is there I, I'm really expanding on exactly what that information tells us, and in what sense, you know there's certain bits of information that analyzed as a set of information, tells us something. But it, you can't then put that information together with other information because they're actually telling us different things, if you see what I mean? All of it, yeah. Yeah. Erm I think, I think they're all telling us different things and they're gonna be int yeah Sort of subsets aren't they really? and they're gonna be interpreted Yes. differently. I mean this Yeah. is why i ideally with the original spreadsheet, we had about five Yeah. items. That's right yeah. But it's the group that have decided that we'll have eighty five items. Yeah. You see I would be quite happy y you know i through negotiation to say, okay Askham Bryan College is in my division, I know that there are satellites and so on. And we do offer them a service, but they're a specialist college, everybody Mm. there is vocationally Yeah. committed if you like. And I'd be quite happy to sort of agree er a penetration level there, that was a much smaller percentage than Yeah. you would expect in an another college Yeah, yeah. and so on. That's a debate area that's going to have to come to, yeah. So I think that sort of weighting factors are quite important, yeah. Yeah, yeah. I mean it's going to be contentious because I mean erm certainly Cynthia, to a smaller extent erm Mandy, would argue that whilst you've got York College of Further Mm. and Higher Education, Harrogate's got Harrogate College of whatever it is now Mm. and you know Ray's got Scarborough. Mm. Erm numbers of those students whose addresses are in other divisions, are Mm. actually being serviced at home in the home office. Mm. How on earth Mm. The only way we're going to get that is the number of F E students seen. Yeah. Erm and I'm I'm happy to include the number that there theoretically are. Yeah. And we can make whatever judgments about that we want to, as a group, I won't exclude anything Sue. Yeah, fair enough yeah yeah. And you only mentioned that briefly, once, at management team meeting and it was included in all the discussions, you know Ray was the first one, you know. Yeah. Right, so where, right that's the F E sixth form bit, quite happy about that. Erm special needs is a difficult one. Mm. But I think that Jane particularly will have a view on that, because it isn't strictly a divisional issue. It is No. more truly a county issue than some other aspects, and I think that, that should help, help us out quite a lot. I hope so I mean Yeah. I did some figures last year on had this, this, this issue about distributing the special needs staff, which wasn't in the Mm. M S U had planned it. Mm. Erm and what, and, and because the decisions were made outside the division, they were made here, Mm. we just didn't get any Mm. Yeah. it didn't happen. Yeah. Erm our special needs provision was a erm a scale six member of staff with no prior experience who'd had a rop ropy probation year anyway, Yeah. you know ? Yeah. Erm and when I looked at the figures, we had a greater percentage of institutions and pupils than the other sharer or partner in the process. Yeah yeah yeah. So I, I am interested in seeing Yes. what the numbers say. Yes. Well I know that my, if I was to name my busiest member of staff, it's the person that took on that Yeah. special needs work. Mm. And erm I think it's erm an, an issue for us to look at as a management team, whether we actually give it an even, even greater weighting Yeah. than we recently have done. I think that would be very justified Yeah. in actual fact. A lot of the work Yes it would y comes post sixteen, Yes. which is why I was pleased that erm Well it starts a year earlier as well. Well that's right. Erm but it's the,i in York and in Selby, there are very big C P V E groups Mm. who have, have got quite significant special needs Yeah. and it th they're hu hugely time consuming, and th that I, I, you know Mm. I was glad that, was it Deborah had raised that, because I certainly see that Yeah. as a major factor. Yeah yeah yeah. It is Erm yeah, I mean. But again we're not in a growth area. No no. You know the government may well have given a priority for special needs O i yeah if, if we give a higher weighting to special need then we've to take it away from somewhere else. You take it from somewhere else yeah. We're not talking about s adding extra staff But I, I do wonder is that might and seeing who gets their share. No but it is an opportunity to actually Oh yeah. address that isn't it? Yes it is, Mm. yeah. Yes I mean, yes I mean Mm. I, I, I Which is why I'm a bit disappointed Alan is curtailing the discussions at two thirty, on the day that we're meeting to discuss it. But anyway, he's optimistic we'll have sorted it by two thirty. Right well, well we will finish by two thirty then won't we? yeah. Well we'll have to, to, but we've got C S M T the next day anyway. Yeah. But erm Yeah. Okay erm yeah a again related to special needs it the number of training applications Yeah yeah. erm which I think we can assume is reasonably standard. In Well I mean the arguments I've had is that they're not. What that in some areas somebody wouldn't get an application whereas that they would in other areas? Yeah. Yeah. Oh no sorry the numbers. Are dy yeah yeah yeah The numbers are not standard I know, I, I know that we, we have a very high Yes in theory we should be doing the same thing I, I think most people would feel, we've been doing it for such a while Mm. now and Yeah. I think that N Y T E C would have said something by now if none, you know if there was a disproportionate Yeah. or a vastly disproportionate er numbers. Yes. That's right they'd Erm have gone for the lower number wouldn't they? Definitely low so I mean I, I s again I'm very Yeah. pleased that you're including that one. Yeah. We are including Erm it. what's thi we're including that one, yeah. What's this annual sickness rate for C Ts and ? Clerk typists. Oh right. Sorry. Sorry I understand I thought it was careers teachers for a minute. Oh no. Ooh now that's an interesting point, cos how much of a burden then falls to the careers officer? We go back to the incompetence argument again. Erm I accept again form seven projections, that that's obviously you know Yeah I know we're not in growth. No but we can't l year ahead. We can't ignore the next year ahead. Yes. Although there is this, perhaps we won't be dealing with year eleven pupils. N i er well no, but it still might be that year eleven numbers is still our gearbox as Paul called it in terms of so whether that's actually Yeah that's our, that's our ratio yeah. wh the group Yeah. we're working with or not that might be our funding ratios. Mm I must admit I'm, I'm interes be interesting to see the outcome, you know when audit commission and O F S T E D say that thirty percent of people who enter further and higher education fail. Yeah. Why are we concentrating on them? Why aren't we concentrating all our resources before they start? Yeah. You know? Still Erm I didn't write down the other things that you mentioned as we were going through that weren't on this list. Right. So I can't remember if there's anything Okay so we've got loading for management time. Holiday Yes. traffic. So the management time was times b spent out of the office by divisional managers was it? That's Ray's definition, yeah. Yeah. Oh Yeah. f it'd fa fair comment actually yeah If it can be quantified. Yeah. Yeah. Erm And if it's going to be relevant, from July onwards if Paul's talking about moving into different premises, Yeah. it's going to knock an hour off Ray's journey if we're in Thirsk, if H Q is Yeah. in Thirsk. Yeah. Yeah. Erm and it isn't going to add anything to anybody else about from The problem, we must make sure Ray doesn't include the amount of time he nee extra he needs to arrive at every meeting half an hour early. Well yeah that's right. Yes he's not getting, not getting You know extra two members of staff No. because he's not using his time well. I mean You tell him that I'm not sure whether, you see I think the management time issue is very related to this, but I think it's a separate issue, it's a major concern I've got at the moment that there is, I mean I know everybody's got their own arguments but there has been no time at ever in the future that anybody who goes back further than twenty years in the service can recall, where York has had such a small amount of management time as it's Mm. got at the moment. And there are a lot of, as far I'm concerned there are a lot of cracks appearing. Erm Yeah. and I think th you know I'm certainly going to be arguing that we actually address management time almost as a separate issue. Well we haven't grown in the last three years as a service Mm. in the way that we have in previous years and management teams haven't grown in that sense, but the responsibilities of management have been increased. And we're not doing yet the things that it was planned that we'd be doing of in a year. We're not financially responsible but we were No. expecting to be but you know, how, how could you be Mm without any additional I mean Mm. the argument of m the lesson of my project is, that without an accounts technician full time here Mm. forget it. Mm. Erm and I suspect much, you know if you're going to be financially down there, unless you want to get involved in double entry bookkeeping because you're transferring money from one fund Yeah. to another, which is what we're supposed to be able to do. Mm. Without a part time temp accounts clerk Mm mm mm forget it. Yes I agree Yeah. with you there. So I think i it'd be, I can see it being a big pitfall if we got into too much of a discussion in relation to this, about management time Mm. because we could end up spending too much time on that But yeah at the expense of actually looking at, at mainline Yeah. staffing levels which is what Yeah I mean I hope all, I will be able t all I will do is say well we've got about fifty bloody criteria here. Yeah Erm I'll make up a spreadsheet with twenty five or thirty blank columns, but with all the formulas in place Yeah. and we'll decide which ones we want, and I'll just delete all the remaining empty Yes ones. Do you want the data to go in? I think we've gotta r Yeah. until we can meet and agree. Yeah. Some of the da all of the data I've g I can get I will get. Right. Yeah. Which is the stuff we've had pre before, most of which was centrally collected, yeah? Yes yes. Erm the r everything else is, is, is an area of debate isn't it? Yeah. Really. I mean even the simple things, the hard data like annual mileage, is clearly an area of debate because you and Cynthia would argue different points you know. Mm mm. But what about things like post sixteen special needs? The thing about post sixteen special needs is, it's like F E. It doesn't happen where the clients live. Mm. Does it? No. So you know do you get all the credit for it, because it happens in institutions in your division? Or does somebody else get the credit f or does the credit apply equally because everybody deals with their own at home? Mm Or do you get a weighting because everybody's dealing with their own, but you're actually dealing with the institution, and Mm. probably get some of their work? I mean Yeah. that's theoretically simple hard data. H I mean I'm really talking about the high number of post sixteen special needs people Gail has, has to see that I mean they probably exist in other Mm. offices as well, but erm, and I know she's half time and some offices have only got a quarter, but as I say, she's the busiest person I know and, and she's Yeah. very efficient. Erm what would you suggest for r for, what would we do to address that? Well in one sense I, I would like to see Jane addressing it, because she can do it from a non-divisional point of view. Oh sorry yeah I mean in terms of how, what numbers do we Erm in terms of numbers? Yeah. Well I, I think to t we could try and make an assessment of the case load, special needs post sixteen case load in ter and we'd have to do it in terms of the work we actually do. Yeah but Because but Yeah. erm there isn't one in Northern Division. Right but th th So there's no case there's no re no numbers. Well isn't there? If they're saying they work with people that are post sixteen and a special need, then they'll have to identify those people and have to say, but th the Yeah but if you haven't got anybody in the post Right. If we h right. Oh sorry. I understand what you mean And we haven't had any post since last , yeah that's, what I mean is Right, but presumably if that, that work's not just going by the board that's, that's right No it's being done by other members of staff. Yeah. So I mean in terms of identifying So if the staff the mem the post, Yeah. and what that post case load is, everybody can't do that uniformly. Yeah. But the total numbers of people F E, with special needs, seen in the division Mm. regardless of who they're seen by, that's hard data. Mm. And you could then if you wish say well we've got point five of a post, and that person saw eighty percent of those or ninety percent or Mm. whatever. Mm. Erm and if in another division they saw another number erm but their, their particular post only managed to see twenty percent, erm well that tells that the Mm. consumers are not getting specialist services Mm. for example and Mm. there's, there's got to be a reallocation. Yeah. Er I'm quite happy to include the case loads erm of special needs C Os. Erm Yeah. no I just don't want to exclude anything No. that people feel are an issue cos together we have to exclude it. It's just finding a way of Well let's put, case loads active. Yeah. Erm special needs C Os yeah? Yeah. And I'm not talking about Not the specia not the specialists. senior No. it's the special needs Yes. so not Yeah. senior. Yeah? Mm. Yeah. I mean how, how we're gonna get all the numbers I don't know but, but I mean that's a, when I think we see what people are arguing, Yeah. what their people's cases are. I mean I think at the end of the day because we're w going to have to basically in a sense your job I think even though at the moment you're saying you know fine I'm not gonna exclude anything, I think it's actually going to be sort of, to try and eliminate most of this. I think so yeah. Because at the end of the day I think that a although it's quite significant in terms of workload we might be able to address it elsewhere I mean I think the yeah. special needs thing can be addressed Yeah. in a slightly different way. I think the management thing can be addressed in a different way erm excuse me erm, oh I've lost my thread now but, oh yeah that's right Yeah. in terms of when you're taking so much into consideration, the actual lo loading or weighting of that factor would actually s turn into dr into something very insignificant in terms of weighting I think. Yes. I mean Paul's proposal was to have a spreadsheet of hard data Mm. but we're obviously, we've got debate about what really Yes s is hard data now. To which we add a whole series of other factors that we then kick around and argue over. Mm. So we, so we distribute the staff based on the hard data and then you make cases based on other factors. Yeah. Erm and if you and Ray make the same case, then you and Ray have to fight for the Yeah. share of resources, if it doesn't apply to any others. But if Mm. everybody makes the same case Yeah. then either we ignore it or we, well we'd have to ignore it wouldn't Mm. we? Cos we're another four Mm mm. of staff. Mm. So yeah small number of factors in the sheet, and then supplementary debate items. Mm. And maybe issues that are, that are dealt with in a different forum completely but erm Yeah. Yeah? Right okay. Just remind me again whether a goes towards the bottom or Networks links, N Y B E C, work experience, Mm. the number of schools in a division, erm Yes. Y T, everything in Y T Yeah. C L As, clerical to management, mileage to schools, management time as you said. Yeah so all of those things Economy to scale is another one, Deborah, you need a minimum number of staff erm to service a location. Yeah. I mean it's interesting I mean Cynthia raised that point yesterday, to which the answer, I mean I'm afraid I have to say th th the glib answer is, why are you telling me you need a minimum number of two members of staff at lunch time, for a full time office in the centre of town, surrounded by bloody phone calls, in school buildings, when you send one single member of staff aged twenty one, Mm. to Stokesley, who if she screamed through a bloody bullhorn wouldn't be heard by anybody? Yeah. You know erm I don't know whether that, I mean I think that's going to be another area of considerable debate Mm. how many people Mm. do you need. Erm to be honest it's no good saying you need two members of staff every office, on health and safety grounds. Mm. Or consumer satisfaction grounds cos we haven't got 'em. Mm yeah. We can't, we can't say, can't erm really just contradict ourselves like that can we? No. I, I think it's an interesting No, I don't mind the contradiction but argument because Yeah. I think you can, I, I've, the same argument has occurred to me in relation to special schools. Where there might be a very small number Mm. that almost regardless of the number, you've actually got to do a certain amount You've got to, you've got to physically go there two or three times, you've got to form the agreement. relationship with the school even if there's only one person there. Yeah exactly. Erm erm I, I think that you know I, that had occurred to me in the past Mm. that we should actually look at a ce a minimum Yeah. number of days per institution and then the weighting over and above that is on the number of pupils, mm. F for number of pupils, yeah. What's a m I mean we could easily say it's I don't think it's you know it's go you could easily say it's a minimum of three days Yeah. just to introduce yourself, meet the staff That's right that's right. start the agreement and finish the agreement. Yeah yeah. And that is including I think in terms of schools it only really applies to special schools, I think once y even in some of the small independents, once you get over about forty or fifty, then you're gonna have enough contacts Yeah. anyway Yes. Yeah erm to keep the thing going. But Yeah. certainly with some of the specials, especially where the numbers fluctuate so much from Yeah. year to year, Mm. to maintain the relationship. Yeah, and of course you know when you've got a specialist school that is one site special, special education needs pupils, nursery, primary, secondary, Mm. all in one school. Mm. Erm that causes problems as well. Mind you more for the governors but hard luck. So all of these are the factors that Yeah. people have come up with I'm gonna simply list every single factor Yeah. on a single sheet I hope yeah? Provide Yeah. a magnifying glass. I will asterisk those which I believe are s the simple raw data that Paul referred to, and the remainder are the Mm. you know the, the supplementary debate items Mm. but which have to come with numerical evidence. Yeah. Yeah. So really if we did agree that any of those supplementary factors were going to be significant. And they'd only be significant if we were expecting a significant disproportion anyway Yeah. erm then we would actually go, have to go away from that meeting on the nineteenth and c and come back with that information Yeah. for you to process. Well unless I, I ask you beforehand you know Yes. I circulate this beforehand. Yes Yeah. So we come prepared. Which would be the best thing. Yes. One of the other things you talked about briefly yesterday, Cynthia and I, was er Cynthia believes that Northern Division operates in a radically different way to other divisions. Mm. And sh there are a number of reasons that she believes that. Erm but we were also looking, I mean we were looking at you know how many staff you need a minimum number of staff, economies of scale. Now i d in our debate we, we had separately actually come up with very similar f processes. Erm which was to, to audit what staff were required to run a division in a month, of four weeks Mm. or a statistical month, I mean a month of four weeks is probably easier. Erm so we were saying for example, and this is what we, we'd actually come up with, the five days of the week, and the three categories of staff, I mean I've just obviously put erm C L As are in either C L or E O really Mhm. I mean they're C O really in terms of grading and what This in terms of th er the careers centres rather than in Yeah. terms of servicing schools or anything like that it isn't N no everything. Oh it's everything? Yeah Ooh God right. so, oh no sorry this was in centres. Yeah? Yeah. To staff the North Northallerton office. Mm. The way the standards require it to be we need the following numbers of staff. And we had to do it over a week and over a month because some weeks you do things that don't do Yes. the previous week. Erm Thirsk, Richmond, Leyburn, Stokesley and in the whole, and that's a hundred percent. Mm. Erm and then see how many we'd got. You know Mm. you need that. Mm. And how many we'd actually got. Mm. Erm and part of the problem's always gonna be there's part time staff who Mm. for a variety of reasons only work certain days. Generally speaking those days are agreed by the member of staff's needs rather than the organizations interviewed Or they're historical and you can't change them, yes. Or historical, yeah. Erm or they're related to attendance at meetings you know er no Mm. good saying, your job is Tuesday and Friday Mm. but actually we have a meeting every F every Monday Mm. afternoon Mm. so I mean we've got more people in on Mondays Mm. not because that's the best day for them to be in to do their work, er it's not, erm but because that's when the meeting is. Yeah well we had, we had to abandon that, we brou we brought all our Employment Officers in on a Friday, erm and we just couldn't staff the office the rest of the week you see Yeah I know. It's gone by the board and I have to confess we've not had a I think a meeting of me proper meeting for a long time. an hour a week meeting is means that there's not adequate communication Mm. in the office, doesn't Mm. it? I, I'm going to have to have more than one meeting and let people, say you've got to come to one or the other and have them at different times during the week. Yes. I mean I, I, there is actually an argument for having one meeting, everybody knows when it is and where it is, and if people feel they're being left out or not b getting informed they should make the case that I am Mm. not being informed. Or if Mm. it's evident that they're not informed because they're not doing what they're required to do, Mm. erm they, we have make sure they get n get told. But Yeah. we can't have Yeah. I can't ha I can't function on inflexible everybody comes in for an hour. We've got certain mi amount of erm the factor where people will say well I, I'll swap that week because there's a meeting Yeah. I'll come in the morning instead or whatever, erm but quite often it means if they're coming in they say, well I'll be in town anyway I'll come in for that hour Yeah. Th they're building up flexitime which Yeah. has got to be taken off at some other time erm B and one of the issues that we're talking about is operational matters, not all of which is a matter for open debate so Mm. they're there to be informed Mm. of a management decision. Yeah? Mm. Erm so as it's not an open debate to produce a decision, very often, and it will be less so I imagine, erm they don't need to be there to listen to this debate. So they need to be there t to hear the answer. And the method that we're going to use. Well those that are there can do that and contribute to some extent. Those that aren't will have the minutes, yeah? Mm. Or clear instructions that are It was really er, it was really a penance going to church. Yes you really had to make the effort supposed to do. Everybody had to, sort of middle ages, all the servants That's right. and everything were forced Oh, every, yes to go, weren't they? The household went Their, the homes the homes were probably Then there, a lot of wearing lots of clothing and not washing much, was there? In spite of that it was probably more comfortable than the home that they'd left anyway. Yeah, yeah. The church. They wouldn't want to wash very often, would they? No. Keep the dirt on them, keep warm. Smell of it. Well everybody, everybody smelt the same, didn't they? Yes, yes they wouldn't notice it. They all, they all huddled together and then when they started to get warm it'd pong a bit, wouldn't it? It would that, yes. Do any of you remember Saint John's church? No, you, do you remember Saint John's church, no. It was only demolished about eighteen, nineteen seventy. Some of this woodwork is out of it. Oh! Is it? Mm Oh! It was on the corner of Saint John's road. Yeah. I remember seeing, yes, I remember seeing it Yeah now. Oh. That lovely chandelier. Isn't that beautiful that chandelier? Mind the step! Yes. I'm, I'm standing here to tell everybody I watched you go down. to mind. Cos you can't see it. No. You're looking around you, you, you could do a wob a real bad wobble. Mind the steps! Down there that step. Seeing used to tell us a lot about this, didn't he, at class when it Oh Richard Reverend Richard That's right! Vicar of this house and he died in eighteen thirty three. Eighteen thirty three! Yeah And then that's the other one. One was erm Eighteen eighty one What would, what would relation were they? Well I think that Uncle! Weren't they on Mrs I think they were, yes. on Mrs 's side? Were they uncles? Was one an uncle to the other? Can't tell the relationship. Whether they were father and son I can't tell you whether, what the relationship between the two of them no was, but they're related to Allen erm did tell me something else and, and his Allen is spelt Oh yes! the same A double L E N That's right! Yes, yes, that's right, yes. He was the one that did, did the diary isn't it? One of them was a great diarist. That's it. That's it The earlier one I think, isn't I can't it? The earlier one, eighteen thirty three one. Was it him? Mm Yes. He was Mind you that was the year he died. He Yes became vicar in seventeen ninety, didn't he? Yes, well his diary was around that time Eighteen eighty three. and Allen's still got the Aye, that's right! diary. Yes, he has his diaries. That's it, mm, that's it. It's coming back to me now. Have you got any information on? It says pretty much the same as I'm sure as er, as in here, yes. Mm. Oh I'm pleased I've done that there's ? yes, yes, that's right. information Re tell us what it says. Give me time. A bit of pa wait a minute, after, oh right. After a ten years I've in consequence of the ill state of my nephew . Oh well, I was right. tell June that, won't I She's the entry in the diary of the Reverend Richard . His custom in his latter years was to attend here at all on Sunday mornings when he would occasionally the sermon being preached by one of his curates or his nephew, Reverend . The curate's deficiency was invariably noted Now then, Richard home, was it Little Griffing? This is what it told us Well there you are, you, yes, yes so he could prayers there on Sunday afternoon. That's right. Has this cropped up in your history class then, that you've been doing? Two years ago, two years ago. Not this, not this, not this history class. No the one with the W E A. This is, this is one I meant now with the other one. Oh yes, I've seen it. You've got to watch both ways, haven't you? Yes, that's right. What, what, Allen didn't know about isn't worth knowing, is it? No! Oh yes? Oh aye! oh, he said, that'd be very interesting and he'd just been to see the and I said how is she? He said marvellous! So I said but what, what his Yes. Oh is she the old lady that's Oh, what a pity couldn't get somebody to talk to her and have it recorded. What she has done, Tom, Tom, you know, young Tom? He is very interested in art, in history Yes. and he wanted to know a lot of things and erm Johnny you know you know Johnny Yes, I know. well he knows Mrs and Tom knows Johnny Yes and he knows Mrs so he said well I know a lady who could fill a lot of gaps for you, Tom, in your history thing, so he asks, he asks Marv marvellous, marvellous and Reg wrote it all down and wrote it, sent it to John and he was so pleased to have it Yes. but I mean things that nobody else remembered obviously she remembers or even if she doesn't remember she heard it talked of in her childhood yes. so she goes back a long way. I think she's marvellous cos I mean And she was born, you know, right at top of Bridge Street Oh was she? One of those houses that looks down She hasn't Bridge Street. She was a . she hasn't moved far then has she? She was a She hasn't moved far, has she? No. From Bridge Street just across the road. Cos when Ma died and he didn't know and he, I think he said he was his mother's cousin or something Yes Her mother's cousin yes, yes cos I mean All very brainy. going back to her childhood, well then if she can remember things her parents said Mm well that's going back a long time, isn't it? Oh yes hundred and fifty That's right, it's a long, long time. So, for, sort of still to be recorded know who you are, pleased Really? you've been to see them Is that really? Yeah, but she said I were called one night I went with her daughter-in-law and she said oh Fred's just come to put me to bed, you know, he comes every night Really? and he does, he goes every night religiously,. The young The youngest the youngest but one. Oh aye, cos he does Does he live in does he live in Driffield? Yes. Yes, I think they're all very good to her, aren't they? Ah well, you see they used to where they used to live opposite. opposite. Oh did they? Oh yes. Can you remember what was Lindsleys? Yes. Mm. Well they lived in Oh did they? that house. And where do they live now? Someone Er Brackwell. Oh yes, er I mean she's so lucky that she has all living in Griffing. Mm to take it all in turns. Yes, of course she'd never her own washing till Really? Yes. and they've taken it in turns in that now Take the washing, yes and they all, one week one of them does the Yes. out of us, every Oh, do they? That's right! and she tells them what she wants. That's wonderful cos families aren't always like that, are they? She tells them what she wants. No, the daughters-in-law, well not daughters Daughters -in-law, yes. She tells them what she wants, she said er one, Fred said something to her one week and she said, well you know, you can get some sirloin, she says I like sirloin and I like it with fat. She said tell not to cook fat off. Well I mean you can't get it with fat, can you? Well I like fat. Anyway, she's a good appetite. Has she? A marvellous appetite. How old is she then, is she A hundred and two in June A hundred and two, oh Yes, put her to bed, and there's different people call in to see her Yes. they all have their days for going. Yes. Er one of her, well I don't know who he really is, but he's some relation, he goes every morning, every morning Does he really? Yes. I know when I'm coming It's wonderful. home from Jack's on a Sunday morning I have to walk as far Oh, it's that man that lives near Anne int it? Yes! I don't whether he's a cousin or a nephew No, Anne doesn't know what the relationship is but he No, but there is some relation called her Aunty oh yeah she said mm, yes I can walk along with Allen, as far and then he'll say well I'm just going into see that's right. But it seems quite incredible a man of his age be you know, going to see Me brother saw to seventy eight Aye, I see. And you know, Jean shares and when they come up she shares it among them. Oh, does she? Five pound for you and there's five pound for Tom for coming in for doing this . Five pound for you Fred for being good to me. Five pounds She must be a wonderful woman. She is! Treating them all alike. All alike! She must've, she had terrific spirit cos when she had to have breast cancer operation I can't Did she? remember how long, her breast off. Oh, I didn't know that Yes! Turned eighty, she must be. Yes! I'd love, I've never seen her. Have you, Jean? Oh yes! I used to quite a lot and Yes! especially when we used to be at factory, because we used to come down Phillip's yard, didn't Yes! we, you see, and she of was often pottering in her garden And she lived there Oh she still lives there lived there yes. She lived there then, did she? Oh, she's never lived anywhere else. sleep downstairs Really? Marvellous woman. Marvellous lady. Incredible She was often popping in that Oh yes! I would like to er know what she was saying to that son. I wish we could get him to come to the meeting. Did you come to the last history meeting No, not that one. Erm, no I missed that one. No, the one in the house where er Mr Yes, he, he's doing it at the British Legion next time. Oh. Yes. He, he really makes you feel Yes. Oh I know. Well I remember it so, Yeah. you know. Yeah. asking if it's in that booklet and it isn't, is it? That's where you put the pressure on? Yeah. Had a phone call from a woman last night, wanted to go swimming Thursday night beginner's class. I said Have you got to go to beginner? No, it were No we, it should be next Thursday but the school's on School's on holiday school's on holiday it's not worth going, What, you're still going to are you? Mm Mm yeah Thursday and it, it says Tuesday in the paper and it's Thursday. It has been for a, a while now Yeah. cos they don't open Tuesday, they don't and it's, anyhow it's the last one, the last one next month in May. The third Thursday in May is the last one. But we had nobody been for a couple of times, now. I've just got it going again and I really have to make the effort. This is what I say, I ought to make the effort to come to this French! They're all enjoying it Well that's finished. very much. Yes, I know. We're, we're just finished today. He's Yeah. gonna have another one. Yeah. Is he? Yeah, he's gonna have er, he's gonna go on from there, go on advanced. Oh. So we've, we've missed this one this morning Mm. I think we ought to, if we could make it a certain day of the week, something to do with U V A. One Tuesday and the other Tuesday have a local history and third Tuesday have something else. The Tuesday of each Ah, but well we do, we do that, we do No we don't. We have Wednesdays and Thursdays. Oh yes! Oh I see what you mean. You mean one Tuesday That's because, that's because there's too many! Too many. No, but there'd be a good four, wouldn't there, at least four. A Tuesday in a month Oh yeah, I see what you mean, yeah have one Mm, mm make Tuesday, or Wednesday or Thursday for the U V A. Yeah, but the trouble with it there is that very often you get, you get half of them say we can't come Tuesday, but we can come Wednesday Oh yes! Most people most people we find can, can go Wednesday and Thursday Yes, well That counts whatever days, whatever That's right. day. He's, he's, he's, he's one of these you get if you aren't careful you can get so committed with Well this is, this is why I think may be able to go to French and er I, really when I hear how, how well they've enjoyed it this morning I thought well I wished I'd made the effort Yeah but, even, I like this, I like this local history all very Yes interesting. Yeah. Erm your bridge class clashed with me Town's Women's Guild committee meeting so that was that, so Yes. erm I think if you're on a committee you have a right to To attend ex exactly if you're on the committee. Anyway I'm Are you? Well, I know we're rather looking forward to May when it, when it finishes till September Yes, well yes Yes, so we can have a rest. I mean, no really Do you know, I didn't want to say we anything but I thought you were looking, beginning to look a bit tired. Are you feeling tired? We are, well I'm not so Yes. not so well at the moment because I've got a stinking cold. Oh that's it, is it? Yeah. Yeah. But erm we, we wer went up to our son's in Inverness about fortnight, three weeks ago Oh yes, mm, yes. and I'll tell you this, we were glad to have nine days doing nothing. Yes. Just sat there and we felt better for it. Mm well that's one of the reasons I haven't involved We, we were getting tense! in so much, yeah. Even at weekends we there's nothing Saturday and Sunday, but somebody that we'd lived with in West Yorkshire called us. We'd a couple call last weekend that were in Yeah, well you're on their way to the coast from West Riding, aren't you? They are, yeah. Yeah well, you see, we found that for the first three or four years now they've gradually dropped off a bit, but they did used to, I mean they still come, but it It's nice to see them int it? Oh yeah. Betty , is it Betty that er goes to the er, it's in the er, goes to the tea dances. She's a little lady Oh Bet Betty ? Betty , no. No . Her husband's a tall fellow. He's had er, he's had heart trouble that's why he doesn't go dancing. Betty? Betty? Anyhow, he, he bakes bread and he was talking about it the other day and I said oh that's lovely homemade bread. It, just before we set off they came round in the car and they had a loaf for me. Lovely! He said I'll give you the recipe. I made a mistake, like Margaret said, you're not enough yet you, you, you'd never learn, you would. And I said, ooh I wouldn't mind making bread. Well, people take me up on it and he's Oh! and so he came round with the bread and he said I'll let you have the recipe and I thought, so I am now So? committed to making bread. Bread good. I'll have to make some now. You'll have to make some little baps and bring them No, no, you know that, this is Margaret says I ain't never saying anything unless I'm sure I want to. She said I, I, I linger and when I've thought about it I say yes, Well, it's very difficult, yeah alright. But, you know, you, don't you, you go straight in without thinking. Oh, I think I've only once made bread in all my life. I remember me mother with a great big earthenware Oh aye! She used to have this in, in front, in front of the old fire . Yellow inside. Yes. I've got plants growing in it at the moment. Well,Jo Joan, Joan there she, she, she can make the most marvellous cakes and scones and everything else. She's only once tried to make some bread. She made this bread, put it on the table, the table went So heavy! We couldn't, we couldn't get through it. We, we, we, we threw, we threw it out into the garden and these birds swooped down and they couldn't take off! Oh go on! They couldn't take off. They were flapping round on the They were so excited at getting something They were so, they were so heavy, they were so heavy, they were so heavy What's he asking me? Talking about your baking. How the birds couldn't take off Bread? Yes. Yes. It's the only thing I can't make! I can, can do all, all sorts Have you seen, have you seen that, that little lady that goes to Betty, Betty something I think we could be moving. She's in the bowling club. Oh you mean the little one that goes with Mary? Aye, I know who you mean now. talking to him last night, he makes bread. He loves it. See it's one of his hobbies and he goes to, he goes to er Bradshaws and he Yeah. asks, he gets it, it's called Brad something special, brown Special flour brown flour and, and, anyway they called round just before we set off. They waltzed round in the car and they had this brown loaf warm out of the oven for me. Really? It smelt beautifully. Oh! And, and he said I, because, because when they were talking Joan, I mean, like Margaret said, it's worth thinking first before you open your mouth Yes. and he said They could er making bread well he says I, you know, I'll give you the recipe and you're committed now, you know. You're gonna have to have a go! she says you've, you've had it, you're right in so you better get yourself organized. I, I, I would like to but I haven't thought it seriously enough about it, but when I smelt that I thought Well I've got a couple of er bridge loaf tins that you can borrow. Loaf tins? Oh, I've got a couple of loaf tins. We had one er you know, the eldest daughter she makes all her own bread My mother used to do. Oh so did mine. Great big earthenware things. We were just talking about that Earthenware Every, every Thursday, coming home from school She'd be pounding Yes! Best thing to do is do a bit of gardening then go in and bake the bread. It puts a bit of flavour in. It cleans your hands! It cleans your hands! Yes! Put a bit flavour in your loaf of bread. Bit of compost in it. Me mother used to make loaves and then she had a set of a set of little tiny loaf tins and we all, she always used to make these little ones, you know, that's mine, that's me brother's, Oh yes that me sister's each time. That was your tea oh I can still remember this now. And when we moved to Manchester the thing I missed were things called sally loaves and you don't Oh yeah! and you don't see them here now! Great big ones! Yes, sally loaves. But do you know, me cousin Eric, who's quite a lot older than me, was at Scarborough with me Uncle and and his mother and dad and he was only a little one and he was stood in that narrow street that goes off, off the Yeah, yeah I know He stood there, cos something had happened, and he's stamping his feet he says and I won't, I won't say our father and I won't have any sally for me supper either. Oh I used to love sally loaves and you cut them off that way Yes, yes. You cut them that way. And they had icing on them, did they have icing? No, no there was currants, the fruits. Like a teacake, wasn't it? Like a fruit teacake Yes a great yes a great one but then when we got to Manchester it was all baps! We didn't know what baps were! So we went there Well it still won't know what's hit it when it arrives, I mean I just realized Trevor isn't Oh is it? here today? He's alright No he's is he? Oh yes, well he's not a, a bit, a nasty cold but it, you know, he's alright, no Not very good And Scrabble at your house tomorrow? Tomorrow, yes. Oh that's jolly convenient for the p erm go and put me little cross on the way then. Yes. Oh well, we're going after we've been Yeah, well we're put morning. I'm a floating voter, me. You're floating towards the school in the morning, this morning? Yes. Oh, really? Yes,take me velvet See you tomorrow for the Scrabble? Er, yes all being well we will, yeah. Erm I was last night because I was all ready to come and the telephone rang and it was one of those Oh upsetting people on the other side and Oh. and I hadn't the heart to tell No. Something over my son's wedding and she was in tears Oh dear! oh this is just when she felt she had to talk Yes. at about twenty past two I did a good deed for the day. Well you did, yes. I'll grant you your reward in heaven. If not before! Not too soon I hope! Not too soon, no. All these rewards that you're waiting for and you don't find anyone there . I'm afraid there'll be an awful counterbalance somewhere along the line. Oh gosh! I'm sure there will. I'm sure there will, yes. Oh Mary's going out for a drink as well. Oh she is? Mm tell her I'll see her some time Yes, righto. She hasn't found a house yet She is thinking of going has she? Er she said not No, she's hoping to go to yeah. Anyway, I'm glad you're better Yes, I'm fine. No, no more cos it can last for such a long time sometimes, you know. Yes, so they say! Somebody was telling me it took her four years! I thought oh my God! Don't want that . Bye! I was thinking about the Wigan one. Aye, I know that, that's the one she was Oh, oh, cos yes, well she, yes, I mean er, I say to her really. I mean I try every now again but it, you end up you're gonna end by talking about them and Mm. child Yes. and what used to do and that's it. Then of course it sort of all brings all back to him. Yeah. He says, well if you don't bother. But no, I just er added, added to them and I didn't have a letter to say that er, you know, they were coming. Well I think if it was a flying visit as I say, none of mine came but carried on there I went home again . back home. Yes. Yes. But erm, no, I, I don't really No, apparently Dul Dulcie didn't know who, who was who anyway. No, that would be I don't really think of that when I, I don't think I don't think anybody went to see her, but I think she'd been done a bit better. Sheila had this letter anyway Oh. so er I was, I was alright at the weekend, that's my Darlington meeting and she was talking to one of the boys erm the one that lives at Filey. And she'd been talking to him for about half an hour and well er her son had come up Yes. and not Norman, it's the other one one of them anyway, he said hello Christopher where's your mum?talking for half an hour! He just hadn't recognized who she was! And that isn't so long since they'd seen her Ah, well it I can't remember the name Because if, if you get a letter from somebody and you think oh, it's lovely I'll, I'll do something about that. Well, you see when it comes to it that's it you can do about replying. Yeah So I believe at one time Oh well reply the girl I used to work with wrote to me this morning. Aye. Er got to arrange a meeting at Pocklington cos she lives at York so we, I go through to Pocklington have a lunch and then return That'd, that'd be quite and we both come back because the buses are quite convenient, they seem I was gonna say to meet in Pocklington Aye you know there's not nobody got half an hour to wait. No, nobody got, no. If it's a wet day you're mucking about. No. So it's a good idea. No. Well we had a lovely walk in the er water gardens at Pocklington. Aye. It was nice. That's another one. Are there any people who are sixteen, seventeen? No then, no then I tell you what. I've got my er seventeen year old granddaughter staying with me for the time being Have you? and it frightens me to death the way they go out. It really does. And I mean she's a good kid, she isn't a bad kid by any means but er, oh the late nights and er I know how the, she expects to get her A level exams I just don't know. They get, get through you can only encourage them you can't make them do it. No . You're wondering how Anyway, see you Gladys you're wondering how your, your encouraging's in the right place Indeed! See you Gladys! Bye! Hello! Oh Christ! It's warm in here! It's lovely! Every time I come in I'm roasting! The wind is quite cold I know. Well, int really cold but it's Open that one as well cos I'm off. Can you tell me how to get Staithes and get to Scarborough and get to from Scarborough to Whitby by bus presumably. Yes. Do you have any timetables Er or anything? the only thing I have is to Scarborough. No! The only information I have, I'm afraid cos that's as far as Well, where do I get the information then? Who from? Erm, I would think you'll either have to get it from Scarborough or Whitby. Is it Staithes? Yes, it's erm about I think at Whitby. Yeah. It's a different bus company, Er ri you see. Ah well, can you, have you got the tele their telephone number for Scarborough? Erm Sorry? yes. Yes. Yes. And what bus company is it then? Just Scarborough? Scarborough District. They're useless, aren't they? Mm. I don't, I mean, I haven't, I'm not useless cos I can give you information we have here but I'm not at that end I can't you see Oh, erm Scarborough. oh. Oh, I would've thought But they could you might've had some timetables like they have on the train Yeah now yeah, I know. I mean it's funny anyway. Mm. Going to be a long journey I would think cos it's an hour and a half from here to Scarborough on the bus. I can be making Yeah. One and a half? Yeah. Will I go from here to To where? mother-in-law's there and by the time I get to Filey I do! Mind you, when I get to Filey take me home and I think that's Yeah. Do they go to Pocklington occasionally I can imagine You know when it takes you what Yeah. twenty five minutes in a car and it takes you about an, an hour on the bus. Yeah, that's it, innit? Anyway, thanks very much! Bye! Sorry! Bye! Bye! What a lovely garden! Hello Jean! Isn't it? That's what I was saying Absolutely and that oh but what a lot you've still got to do, haven't you? But spring's nice this time of the year not compared with what you had not compared yet but you have. Yes, Oh and to be open like that at the Mm at the back. Yes. I know when you know come round and cut the grass at the back I said are you cutting our grass for us! Oh he goes trotting along on that er little mechanical thing Yes, yes now. But I don't re think they realize what they were doing when they started making that flower border round, it's going to be a never ending job. Yes, yes. Well we thought about one but it but we let it grow again because we just hadn't the time. Well, it's as fast as I got round Yes, yes I don't know what, how much they've kept of the er place at the back. No, no I don't know what they've kept But er,you've got a cold too, haven't you? No I haven't really! No! Haven't you? Oh! It just sounded as though you had. Now who was it? It was Jim saying he'd got a cold. Haven't you been? Oh I've just been. Oh I went at half past nine this morning. and they're all going down with their little cards in their hands as they Are they? Two Yes or three people on the way up It was only twenty past nine when I went there yet there seemed to be a stream of folks! being busy she says you're still being kept going all the time and they were streaming in you know. Oh yeah Oh there was quite a few pas when I past I went up for paper but I didn't call in and vote, you know, No No we'll have a walk up tonight. Yes there's a anyway I didn't get caught on somebody coming, when I came out saying who did you vote for? Would you like to tell me? I dodged all those sort of people. If I'm going to vote I want to vote not Were there some were there some people asking you then? Oh! They've always been other years so I presume that Yeah, yeah, yeah there will be. I see. Oh yeah! There were, a few people stood around the main entrance but I You never get any good political meetings now there used to be No good ones at town hall . There was one, one last night, wasn't there? Was there? Oh was there? Oh I didn't know! I thought you got a little brochure through your door. I never read it. I only had one candidate round Oh I didn't know there was and I had a Labour bloke round last night. I don't think it was a candidate, just a reporter. They used to have good political meetings in town hall Well they used to all over, didn't they? Mm aye in villages as well, yeah, aye. Cos, I mean I know I just that election, you know in eighty seven Yes,before then? Well erm no we're in business to know aren't we? Used to be called Brian and then it was that David fellow, anyway I said well I shouldn't bother to vote last time, anyway David n erm David Dennis said you will I'll take you there so he took me to I don't think our votes are going to be crucial but whether they, what they Not here Well I don't think in this area No cos it's I don't know whether he's a good MP or not, do you? no I don't know much about him I'm not very happy with him but er I mean er Oh don't know much about him it's the party rather than the man I Hello! Hello! How's your tooth? Has it been painful? Oh a lot better thanks yes. Oh Yeah it's a lot better today Somebody somebody said yesterday Ooh it had! What was it? Just an infection dentist said. Oh! Funny enough, Peter and I have both been swimming together and we've both got the same thing Did they tell you it was a working party as it's gardening afternoon? I said it've been better if we'd all gave him a, a half a day's gardening I've done I've done an hour this morning and it's just about jiggered me. You know edging the lawn and Yes weeding. nothing since last August and my husband keeps saying oh I must stay in and do it, I must stay in and do it and I just don't! I know! I cut the grass yesterday for the first time and it was like a meadow! I have a lot of shade so I have to wait until it's dry. Yes, it's, it's I've, I've got excuse I don't, I say I don't worry that much, I don't I can find plenty of excuses. Oh I can find plenty of excuses. No mine looks after itself really. It's all ground cover and Do you find that ground cover works? Because I've found the I do! the weeds are coming up and I'm having to go under the ground cover and get them. Hello there! I find that yes. Ooh Hello! Oh! Look at the bulbs, aren't they lovely! Aren't they nice! Do you take the bulbs out each year or No! replant them? Mm? No! Erm we've taken one Oh yes, cos I was going to say there were a lot to come up there innit? That's right. To take the tops off now I don't always I think well what does nature do? Nothing! So No I don't do But with a, it's just that er if you have er in the wrong place it'll look a bit untidy with the other things coming up when the bulbs are dying down. They do, yes leaves the leaves on so Oh I wish I've got something cooler! Ooh! Yes, I've got short sleeves. Mm Isn't it a lovely conservatory? Int it gorgeous and especially this view. Yeah! It's lovely! Yeah an ideal Mm Yes look at all the daffodils! Mm It's quite hot in here, isn't it? Mm Gosh! You just It's lovely, isn't it? Yes! Yes, well we're having it altered. We going to have What are you going to do? well we're moving it forward so far and we're having patio doors Ah, yes, yes, mm Ah, that's nice, mm Yes Wow! What a roof! Yes Cos it wo it doesn't keep the light out of your kitchen or your other rooms does it, because of Well no, you know this. No, you've got such big windows haven't you? Some people have had them with a solid roof Yes, you can see right across. Do you try to take all the tops off as they die off? Well, we started, we started but as the time goes on. I took a few off this morning, but you see there's still a few Yeah I tell myself that, that they don't get taken off in nature so I leave them Yeah mainly. Well I, we do mainly, but what we do is, we, we cut them, when they die off, we cut them right down under ground Oh do you? Do you wait till they go, the leaves go really yellow or Oh no, no. Well no, because you've got to get something else in really. That's it! Yes! You know, let them die off a bit Mm and then, well we leave the daffies and then when the tulips have died off we take the lot Oh yes yes. Oh and you just sort of and, and pull them all off and put Just leave, leave the bulbs in? Yes and put a bit of fertilizer on and on one side, I think that side, you see, they haven't come back as well. No. last year, year before. Oh! Mm You know and er the daffies there was a bad patch there last year. We put some more in and they still haven't come. Oh! I don't know why. Oh! So, I don't think we What are you going to do when the daffies die down?bring anything else in? Oh yeah, well yes, we've had, we've put bedding plants, bedding plants in Bedding plants in yes. Mm, yeah, yeah, got a, you know, just a small border. Right. Oh it's gorgeous innit? We could've played outside, couldn't we? I saw some, my erm people at the bottom of the garden were having their lunch out in the garden We, we had our lunch at but they were right out in the open breakfast and all the meals out here. Yes. I've got me jigsaw on that board that's what, and I've covered it over with a cloth because I don't want the sun to fade it cos it's hard enough to do as it is ! Oh yes! Yes, that's right. It'll change it, won't it? Oh I'm not, I don't like jigsaws very much I do but I've got so many other things to do I haven't got time. Well, I had this one bought at Christmas and I've only just got him persuaded to let me bring the board down to do it downstairs cos you, where are we going to put it? Well you get hooked once you start, don't you? Yeah, you do I, I daren't start! I get frustrated if I can't see something immediately that goes in somewhere. Oh, do you? Oh I don't mind that I get awfully frustrated. I find it I, I think this is going to be a very difficult one cos there's a lot very near the same shade but Yes Mm they are shaded How many pieces? How many pieces? One thousand five hundred. Summer's come! Summer's come! Well let's hope it stays! Yeah. It came about a month ago, didn't it? Although we shall be grumbling for water, shan't we? Yeah. Oh we've had plenty of water for the time being. Be grumbling for water. Oh I don't think so not for what they, what they, they want. No, no. I'm just not dedicated I'm afraid. I just let the garden go Well it's a, I'm afraid it's just getting So many other things to do! too much. I, I really jiggered myself this morning and I was only out about half an hour, you know, and I used to be able to do a full day! yeah. No you can't. and er there's enough to do at the front and the back . The front has got to be tidy I did a bit last night when I went out. Can't you put gravel in your front? I don't like gravel. Oh I don't mind! I think it looks quite nice. I've seen two of all these houses I walked round at Bridlington, I thought all the gravel looked quite nice, you know, with the odd plant and and things through the gravel. And er did you enjoy your tea yesterday with I didn't come because er I thought Yes! Yes! Thank you I might go back and get er, get me grass cut Yeah. They were silly little coffee cups that came round and and part of that is it's a long walk back from the It was, was a long walk, yes. I should imagine Yes. I mean you've such a long walk, haven't you, haven't you? So I thought right, I'm gonna give that Well I yes, I got a bit tired out because erm somebody mentioned table tennis and I said oh I've been wanting a game for years! I, I got sick of asking around and gave up Ooh! er somebody said well the, the table's, we'd been to French in the morning and I hadn't realized that the table's Yes, in the youth club. in the youth club Yes. and erm they'd sort of asked and said, you know, it's possible. So there are two tables there. So we were talking about this and Erm, no I'm what's her name Mrs erm was there, Margaret and she said oh I have a table! You can come round now and have a game. I said oh no, not then! She said well come and see, she said, and then any time any of you want a game come, I thought that was very sweet of her! Very nice! I mean we wouldn't want to keep traipsing through her house every time Where does she live? Er Land's Park Oh! just round the corner! Yes! So we went round then, oh that was lovely too and erm cos she made How many tea but I didn't stay how many er is interested in the table tennis? Well, there was about four of us. Mm cos I found I'd try, well the works had er, erm table and I, I remember the last time I played before I left and I said come on, I'll Mm. Not for me No. it's too energetic and too, you've got to have to, got an eye You've got to watch that ball. Yes, yes and it was always the picking up and the speed of it and so I thought well I, I Yes, oh Ah! so no don't say Yes that. Well no, it's frustrating because that's how I I make the best of it, but er I felt all these years that I Mm, mm hadn't had enough and now Yeah and erm well, of course, then somebody suggested oh what about Scottish country dancing? Cos the so erm I said oh, I'd love Scottish country dancing! You are going to get some bread, are you? she ever will do! I don't think she wants to go home! No! I got home and I felt that's it! If I can do table tennis and Scottish country dancing, nothing won't get me away from that. So I, I spent the night thinking oh dear, have I done the wrong thing now? But if anything comes of this table tennis and Scottish country dancing that'll be Well, it'll be nice if you get a club going at the youth club, because they won't use it in the morning That's right! not the early afternoons, will they? That's it! I'm, I'm coming to your house next month. Yeah It is a long way, isn't it? I don't think I shall be there next month! Well, you, aren't you doing some teas? I was supposed to do it yesterday! I'd, you see, as you know, I missed Oh well all winter Yes. and I said to Joan, when she was on about churches, well you can come to for a cup of tea, you see? Yes, that was what we thought. Aye! But then you see, she said that she thought it was too many so she put it to were, were quite a lot, weren't there? No! Could've managed to cook her tea, couldn't we? Yeah. But I said May or June. So No No So But people don't mind taking their own cup with them, do they? I, I mean I was a bit disappointed yesterday cos it was a good do Oh! up there, wasn't it? It was! The, I say Poor girl! and the cups were so weren't they? And we didn't even have a biscuit, did we? No! How much did she charge Thirty pence. Well it wasn't that much thirty pence, but I mean we, it was, well they'll have to buck up their ideas, But Joan won't they? yes, but Joan asked at the end, didn't she, if it would be possible for us to use that for history and they said yes Oh did she? as long as we just pay for the I see Oh! and I said to we could use it so Rather than go to the school? Yes, I think so, so I thought you, I thought you were sort of more, more or less settled in this I don't know! youth club? Well, I don't know cos I haven't been to any meetings for months, not It's a long walk down since last It belong well I found cycling most people it seemed to be Yes! and I thought I'm never going to get there! Well I studied an art class in the school and it took me twenty five minutes to walk from my house. It is for you, yeah. It would do! Except we reckon half it's even further an hour when we're going to school. Yes! And most people had lifts yesterday to the French on the way up Yes, mm, oh yes. You could arrange a lift, but that's in case you can't get a lift, that's how long it takes you. It is a long way up to that school I know, when, you know by And then there's the int it? Well this is it! Once you get to the school you think you're there! But you're not! But you're not! No! Oh Jean, there's a walk meeting at your house, isn't there? Tuesday morning. Oh she rang me did, ah well, you see, Joan rang last night to say that Reg had asked us to go to to see the daffodils. Well I says, I'm awfully sorry I'm out for the day on Tuesday. Yeah. So, I mean, I won't even be at the house! Oh dear! And I can't alter it! No she said leave outside. Yeah well that was alright. I says oh and I am sorry will you tell Reg later how disappointed I am, but, you know I mean have to manage that little one Well she said would I tell anybody No I can't. Not on Tuesday No, no. and Wednesday I can't and then No, well I Thursday I'm going over to Staithes. Yeah. So And I said to Jerry, oh yes, I'd love to! I'll be there Mm and I realized after that once I got to bed and me brain works I thought, oh dear, the family's coming for lunch on Tuesday so I can't do it! So I thought I'll have to tell, I'll tell and tell me. I'll tell Jean tomorrow so I must've She ringed you. She rang me, oh it were about nine o'clock last night That's right, it was about nine. so, I mean, it isn't just visiting No. but I could've put it off another day Yeah. yeah, you know and I'm taking them a few things. Joan doesn't come here, does she? She's been once or twice. She came early on, then of course I've missed, I've missed February and March. Well I've missed most of them. I wanted to come today cos the last You're away, away again, are you ? Mm Where are you off to this time? You two! I can't keep track of you. Oh I'm going to Holland just Holland? Oh yes in a fortnight, just for five days. That's in a fortnight just to You going by the ferry? Mm me and Joan . In May I'm hopefully going to Italy and, and in June to St Malo Lovely! Mm. That's up to now! You make the most of it while you can. That's what my family say. Just do it while you Yes and I want to just visit a friend either end of July beginning of August and then in September it's our five day study tour to Worcester, you know. Oh what's the, what's this study tour? Well, old country houses. Oh! Oh yes! We've done it, we've been four years, you know you've been going to the Mm yeah done it four years and this year we're Worcester. And at the start go for that it does sound interesting. Ah well we shan't computers any more she's doing art. We've been doing French art as well, so anyway it's an afternoon out that's what I I don't know how you keep track of them! I can't! I think we should take the chairs and things outside I know! I know! I never brought me sunglasses out, that was the trouble! No, that is the thing You see, mm doesn't it after a while yes it reflects upon you Nobody looks erm keen to come inside No, well I just thought unless we, we must do it. I think we might er suffer from the sun if we sat in it too much Too, too early. Yes, that's right a little on the back of the neck, you see. A little bit to start with. That's right yes. Anyway, you're back aren't you? You've been away a long time haven't you? Hey! What are you lot doing starting like this without us? Oh I heard the bell but I didn't know what it was for! Double it sixteen, you see Yeah they never the old folks, are we? I'm, I'm alright. I mean I'm it must be me bowling time, this time. Have you got all vowels? Ain't it funny You've got four Os! Sorry to start that way up, but still that's the way, shouldn't do it that way I get confused whether I'm putting the right word down. Traded, that's correct, isn't it? Oh that's good, isn't it? Erm two, three, erm five, six, seven eight. It's only sixteen the same as yours. That's right. What I like. Now we're gonna fill in the top half of the board, aren't we? Yes. Oh don't worry, Jean. I remember doing a crossword once and I couldn't imagine what this word was that I'd got. I thought what on earth does once mean,O N C E . It took me ages before Oh yes, once Yes, well reading it down reading it down and it must be right and I was busy looking through counting letters, aren't you? Yes I wasn't counting letters never mind. So have I, I'm sorry, just made me count mine. Hasn't somebody taken mine? Have you? Yes Oh, you, well take that one then. I've nothing above a one again No but it's eight so it makes it a bit better. Trouble is we shall lose all our vowels now and we could need them later. Oh sorry yes. Just a minute! But it don't do much, does it? What's that a triple? No that's a triple. That's twelve Twelve, thirteen, fourteen, fifteen, sixteen. That's okay. We're all on the sixteens. Do a lot to the next one I've opened it out for you, look, haven't I, with that A. Don't bother to change it, Don, don't bother Don't worry about turning it for me to turn it round. No, don't bother. as I said they're all little letters S A I D , said Yes We're playing It's a totally different set-up this time, ain't it? Mm yes. I'm going out this way Erm two and that's be two. Two, four, five, nine er and a four, thirteen, fourteen. I don't mind if I have them in figures every time Have you got the same one? I've got an I. They must be all in there. Nobody had an I What has he got? Oh it's some Got a roller I thought it was Well it is a roller, isn't it? So what have we now then? Four, five, eight nine, ten, eleven, twelve! Sorry you've got haven't you? No it's alright. No! I was acting about. Oh that's right, yes flag,F L A G , flag. That's eight for me twelve Are you alright, Mary? There were only three before? Somebody's putting them back in! Somebody's, somebody's put a Q and a Z and an X back in there! Three, two! This is one of them I think I'm staying on this next game. Can you have roe in singular or is it always plural? Roe? You know, like, in a fish roe. Ten, eleven, twelve, thirteen, twenty six. Cos there's some words you can only have in plural and not in single. Mother and hen! Aye that's . Never saw it, Don. Never saw it. Erm double wo is it double word? Yes. Yes. Mm Yes. No, you don't. You're looking for the much ado about nothing Much ado about nothing I mean I know that's one of me doubles. No, but it's Yes, it's a double. eight, ten, eleven, twelve, sixteen. That's right. I was gonna say if we got into double Yes You're better missing a turn. You'd have been better changing one. Oh no, I wouldn't have got that one anyway. Are they all done now are they? Yes. Yeah Just as well. I think they're all ones. Who's got a dictionary? Er I think they have Trevor's got an old one so they must have it. It's on the floor by Joan. It's only a double Yes but you get seven sixteen, seven, er twelve, sorry, nine, eighteen I can't see where I to get rid of. I'm not Now we're playing all on this side without getting across. Mm He said no, aye, you can't see where that come from It's upsetting him. Perhaps I'll record this as well as play it. Al, that's a good deal. Look at this one. erm to do both of those and then it works. Does a light go on? Yes. Does it say record? It's flicking away. Oh yeah. Now it's totally happy about doing it. Okay. I mean part of it is what I think and part of it is that I think that I like it because it works, that these things — I basically am unconvinced much of the modern tradition. I like certain things ragged right for example, or fairly simple pages, but erm you can look back at the sixteenth century and find extremely simple pages, you know it's not a modern idea and the thing is that most of the eddies and currents of popular graphic design are little stylistic exclusions that never go anywhere. They're just fun, and I like them. I mean Neville Brody's work, I think maybe goes just a little deeper than just a, you know, flourish, but I am not sure where he's going with it. I'm not sure it has enough erm logic behind it to lead him inevitably onward. Yeah, I mean his work seems to be, his work seems to be a lettering artist's work, rather than a typographer's work. I mean erm he's going off in almost that sort of, almost a calligraphic way of putting pages together It's true, it's an illustration. It's erm — and another thing, I was delighted when John Dreyfus in the Type ninety lecture used these terms of Charles Peignot called typo lecture and typo visuel, which I mis-spelt on my closing slide! Was it typo vision, did somebody say it was? I don't know what it was. I thought it was visuel, but I don't know if is visual, visuel, vision or what it is, but my French is non-existent. Whatever those words are, the definition is clear. Neville is the typo visual type movement, which someone like April Grieman Type ninety is also in, and I admire this and I think that what Neville Brody did in the early issues of the Face you know just blew me away; it was the most exciting thing that anyone had done in years. What people like April Grieman did in the United States ten years ago — fifteen years ago — was also very interesting, very exciting, but I think that both of those people attracted an enormous number of followers and Brody now essentially occupies rock star status, witness the groupies at Type ninety. Yes, yes, and witness the ‘I don't want to give a lecture’ as well.. Exactly, I mean, give us a break . But in any case, you wonder what they're going to do next. I know, I went through a period of a very much milder popularity in the United States in the seventies, nothing like what Neville has enjoyed or has been squashed by , which maybe is lucky for me, but the idea was that erm Rolling Stone, when I was doing it, became very heavily innovative and there was like countless magazines, you know weekly newspapers in different cities, sections of dailies, everything, that started looking like Rolling Stone there for a while. And my Rolling Stone was completely based on the previous era at Rolling Stone. I mean, I don't think anyone was aware when I arrived there, or when I departed, you know, actually, but there was something in the air at Rolling Stone, and it was really based on British typography and stolen from them . I mean at one time it was the Times Literary Supplement or something with an Oxford box around it. I do remember that. When I was at college I did a pastiche of the student magazine, doing the fold, and it was called Shell, so we renamed it for that one issue Rolling Shell, and I ever so carefully did the lettering for both the title boxes, then I got really disappointed when it came to set the type for the front page article underneath the big photograph which we printed as duo tone, because I could do it on the I B M — I could actually do it in Times and I thought it was going to be really, you know, I'd have to really struggle and find It was really simple? some, some problem American typeface, and it was in fact it was great, it was straightforward. You should have brought it, but I erm, a friend of mine — he's a publisher in San Jose, California, and erm I designed his latest newspaper over the telephone. He was in a fix — he had bought two papers and merged them together, and I wasn't around, I was in New York, and I did the logo for him in a hurry, but I didn't have time to design a newspaper, nor was it the kind of thing for which he could pay a big design fee, so he described it on the phone and then he faxed me some pages of the existing papers, and I said well what you have to do is look at the old London Times and do that. So he got Times Roman headlines in, very simple layout, and he did some caps bold, and then he said to me he had done all the headlines ragged and I said you just missed one thing — centre the heads. He did that and it is very clean, but nowadays a very suburban tabloid, but it's fresh, it's pleasant as a result, and that when I quit Rolling Stone. Rolling Stone was originally a reaction to the underground newspaper look and bit by bit it got art direction and, you know, good illustration, good photography,for this and all that, and then I got in there and pushed the type stuff. We set everything in monotype, and all these display headline faces copied out of old type books and then I left and it was almost like people were saying ‘now what’, erm ‘what are you going to do after that?’ and I said ‘what do you mean?’. This is particularly true, and actually is what I'm leading to in this story is that three years later, when Robert Priest hit Esquire two years later, the Rolling Stone look was supplanted by the Esquire look in terms of popular design and imagination, and I remember people said to me ‘well Roger what are you going to do, your style is out of date’ and my reaction to this was ‘well, hold on a second, it's not my style for one, and number two this is just traditional style, this was never intended to be a trend’, and fortunately it's sort of gone — right now it's back — so Rolling Stone even picked up the format that, you know, the Morris–Jenson typeface that we did for headline and stuff, and it's back in there. Everyone says its totally hip and it wins awards again. It's like what's going on. That's moving too quickly for revivals . But do you feel somebody wanted you to do that or has somebody just been watching the clock on the revivals and the clock's ticked round to a point in time now? Well, clearly the revival thing has moved up so that we're about to have Eighties revivals very soon. Well, I mean Brody may be able to survive by not actually only having a few months between doing it and being revived I think. Well, he's also actually very smart, so I think that he will do something, but I don't think that that kind of deco constructivist inspired pastiche of styles, all reactionary, adds much, but of course they probably think that just doing, you know, just being content with typefaces available in nineteen twenty-five ads , but I don't know. The other side of your comment was that you seemed to like these certain basic typefaces. Mhm. These ones. Well these aren't really my choices. These are Berlow's. No, I know, but there's, I mean, do they represent more him than you? I don't know. Actually the presentation is very much what I like. The A T F nineteen twenty-three book Mhm, yes. Or the nineteen thirties book is like one of the things that really inspired me because it showed me that you can do type that looks as though, I mean it can be composed as though in metal and not be boring — can not be, manufactured, you know hum drum, by varying the weights and by massing it, and also one of the things they do, that you see in those books that you didn't see in printing, was this size of type. Mhm, yes. You know, large text, because they couldn't afford it. There was nobody buying. You had to buy too many fonts, and it was too expensive, and people didn't want to by linotype matrices of that size. It's interesting. The best Centaur, I think, is the Bible Centaur that we've got, which okay it's Bruce Rogers — it's eighteen D on twenty-two, I think — it's Bruce Rogers, but it's also the monotype drawing office taking Centaur and doing things to it to make it work as a composition face at that size, beefing it up just enough so it actually holds, and that's what his Bible's in. And the figures in his Bible aren't Centaur figures, they are Monotype Plantin figures resized to fit with it and work with it. Well, this get's back to that, that typo-lecture, typo-visuel thing, the difference between reading type and illustration type, that if you're actually designing pages that people are going to read, then you have to start with the text. And you know one of the big tricks is to force the editors of magazines to write the headlines before you write the pages — that's something they hate to do , but in Rolling Stone that was one of the rules that we had. We wouldn't start the layout until the headlines were in. Then they could write any headline they want, but if the text is going to change dummying the design become Yes, yes. Without the massing of type and without the large text range, which is like free in the phototype era, as long as you're happy and content with the original drawing, or a version of that size, then you can do so much. It allows people to get into the story — to read, to read. Do you know that page of yours from upper and lower cases on display in the Design Museum, that looks very well there — apart from the fact that you can read it from across the room. Sadly, they didn't let me — you don't have to put this in here — but they didn't let me finish correcting the proofs, cos one of those things, four times is enough . But I was rewriting that to try to get the lines to work and all of those things, and they mess it up a little bit, which annoyed me. Another funny story, also off the record is that that lay in a drawer for two years because they thought it was controversial, they thought it was which I find hilarious . I mean it's interesting what you say about not having the text to work with. I mean that's our — we design books, and we design journals, and we set up and we take on new journals and can we ever extract any copy from the editorial board — we know it's going to be about Plant Sciences, but no idea what length of headline and how much technical gump is going to go into it, or we take something on Hey, what's the important stuff, you know. Are you going to be able to write a little precis, or is there some kind of list of data that should be up there. Exactly, yes, yes. Well, ‘there might be’ is the usual answer, you know. ‘Well probably’ Yeah, we'll do that. The worst one was when we were doing one on Women's Studies and I said look, let's have your title and let's have some kind of format. We'll set larger, we'll set in eighteen point, I mean you can say something about — not an abstract, because they didn't want to be academic. All that's great, fine, yes, lovely, and I said well can you write a few then, please, and we'll put some in. That was the crunch point, the writing and the doing of it — that didn't happen, so it hasn't got them, so it looks a bit blander than it should have been. But, go back here, it's interesting that you point out something I hadn't really thought about, which is why I tend to use typefaces that are sort of garden variety — printer's types, as opposed to the sweller Berthold revivals or whatever. And it is true that, I mean, well, you know, I've spent a lot of time reviving typefaces that are not around, I mean, you know, propping them up, creating a waxed edition , sort of Madam Tussauds version of Lucien or something, but it's very interesting — there is not, in type development terms, there isn't a whole lot that has happened after the Second World War that really turns me on. I don't know why that is. None of the, you know, certainly none of the Univers Helvetica stuff is remotely interesting — the Grotesque are all better than that. Did you see our grotesque that we did? They're fun, huh? They're really Stephenson Blake, with a twist. Yes, yes. We're actually thinking of doing a real Stephenson Blake. These were done for a particular customer that wanted them buffed. So we may want to do an, you know, an accurate revival. We talked to them also about maybe doing an accurate size for size Caslon. A real Caslon. Faith full to the original. And Yes, yes. Weird. Even though its That would shock a lot of people who would say this isn't , because they know five hundred and forty, or they know Well, that's the problem with doing revivals. You get into this thing where you're suddenly influenced by Helvetica, or Univers, even though you don't think you are when you're redrawing . When Adobe did Caslon I know that they had certain things in their minds they couldn't get out of and thus it's not real Caslon. It's an interesting typeface thought. The weighting just a bit too erm Anaemic Well, it's just not quite thin enough. It's a bit too even. Well, it's almost like Imprint or something. Yes, yes, yes. In the smaller sizes it's fine. That's almost what Caslon looks like. But without the letterpress push it looks sad. I mean what it needs it that random pixel degradation across the page to give you back the letterpress look. One set of typefaces that I like there are on the slightly goofy side are the Goudys erm and it took me a long time of, your know, hearing purists try to explain to me why before I understood the distinction. I mean he's really on the Ed Beugmot side of the fence and his typefaces are on the . It's too brilliant, you can't read it, but as advertising it's fine because it attracts your attention and you say ‘what is this?’. It's type and it's shimmering in appearance, in a slightly violent way, but I still like those things. I mean I want to do Village back up. Yes, that would be nice. There is a Deepdene now somebody told me. There's a Berthold Deepdene now, isn't there as well, which looks a bit Oh that's what I was thinking about. Is it. Yeah. That's a little bit buffed. It looks a bit, yes, sort of polished to perfection. That's the way they do everything. I'm, I don't like that This is the Berthold specimen book and it worries me, because everything looks as if it's supposed to sit in a line of eighteen point display, you know, sort of specimen setting, saying this is But it's sad you that can't do you know what I mean, they all start lumping together. So what I think, that's another thing about this, I have erm, there's something about the plainness of design that I like if it's erm the things that have been done that are erm like Adobe typefaces or Bertol typefaces, that are really beautifully, you know, sandpapered and finished to me are boring and when you get into, if you take a look at the schedule that A T F produce typefaces in it's not unlike it, I mean the modern equivalent is the Font Bureau do 'em and try to sell 'em. As a result there's some lumpy things in it and actually erm and the old foundries are the same way in the commercial . And the old foundries cut a face and a size for a specific use. Yes, that's also true, if they had an order. erm they never ran their sequence of sizes by starting with a five point through to seventy-two. The did Times Roman in what five and a half, seven and a half and nine and that was it. I don't think they even thought they would need to do any other sizes and they didn't proportion them so that you could interpolate. I hope it's still running. It seems to be. Yeah it's still running. I wonder if it's really Why don't you try the earphones? No, I've got them, but I left them back there. Yeah, looks like it is. I'm convinced it's playing. Why don't you stop it and start again. Hello, the mike's on and its whirring. It's running . We'll turn it over in a bit and then we'll have a problem. So, also there's something to be said for, I mean, a basic technical thing about the type is that you want to be able to tell the letter apart. Yes, yes. You know, the simple notion has eluded the Neue-Helvetica crowd at Stempel Linotype. The original Helvetica was actually easier to read, I believe, than the Neue-Helvetica. Yes, yes. And this wasn't that easy to read . And there are places which have been, I mean, Neue-Caledonia is not a patch on Caledonia, because, you can't, it's so difficult to track it down. You do blow-ups and you put the two characters side by side and you can't see the difference. You set a blurb or something in proper Caledonia and then in Neue-Caledonia and it hits you that the Neue-Caledonia has gone all sort of thin and sharp and it's the perfection of that shape there and the old one sort of boings about a bit and looks happy on the page. It's a very good point. The only good things you can say about some of these new series, like Matthew Carter's Cochin in fact that he did for Linotype are these other weights. On the whole I would prefer to have that Lanston Monotype's Cochin than Matthews, but when you get up to, I mean, you have to do that cochin black that's fantastic in display sizes. Yes, yes. Huge display size. Wonderful. And that's one of the things that you came out right at the time, I needed something really swanky for a caption for Rolling Stone. I tried Cloister Italic and the Swash, Goudy italic and it was terrible. person and then that was too swell. Then I tried it Cloister and it was too boring, and then I saw that they had Lanston Cochin at Mackenzie and Harris in San Francisco, so we used that and when we moved to phototype I didn't really go with the whole Jenson thing at all. When we went to phototype Matthews came out right at the right moment, to the week!. Yes, yes. It was there. We started using it and interestingly enough that typeface is really popular now, you see it in the United States everywhere, it's all over the place. So that's one of the survivals for that. Yeah but I, part of this comes from my first real, my only training at all and my first real experience in printing was working for this guy called Robert Dothard. Dothard was a printer in Vermont, originally from Philadelphia. He had been doing Limited Edition Club books from the beginning. mhm, mhm. He took over his own printing company called E L Hildreth in the forties and in the fifties sometime sold that out and set up a design shop to produce books and magazines, near Brattleboro, Vermont, and the prep school that I went to had retained him for many years as their printing adviser and, you know, he did the catalogues. I had a project as a student. They had a catalogue that had to be printed. There was an art exhibition and because the school was spending money to print it he had to get involved. It was like they didn't want anything that looked un-Derefield. He brought me this type book. It was all Monotype. mhm, mhm. He asked me which typeface I would like to set it in. He was like just being an adviser, he wasn't like trying to design it, and I looked at it all for a long time and I said Bembo, which I had never heard of. That was the right answer. . So then at the end of that year he offered me a summer job, a kind of an apprentice job and that was it. And it worked for him and we set type by hand and pulled proofs. Everything was metal type and most things were printed off, but at least I got to learn, you know, what it is to lock up a page. Yes, yes. And why. And what it takes to fits word together, to fit letters together. And then why the regiment of this recti linear world works, why it feels good, you know, there's a structural, architectural thing about when it's in three dimensions. It occurred to me later that there's something almost, that there's a cultural imprint, not to make a pun, of this letterpress image of a page in the structural necessities of locking a page and having even gutters and relatively rectilinear forms that creates a feeling of reliability, security and permanence. mhm. And if you do pages that could be done in metal, they are more convincing than pages that cannot be done in metal. That's what I meant about the meta-metal, if you took it back to metal you couldn't make up a page like your upper and lower case with a big R, unless you spent three years chiselling and fitting the thing, but somehow it looks as if it ought to have been possible to have done it in metal because that's where it took its springboard from. So the thing is that the erm, at Rolling Stone we actually called the paste-up people. We had to explain to them what a three-dimensional, you know, lock-up page was and why, you know, gutters were a certain width and if you had column rules and gutters, you know, why they were centered and why you couldn't, if you had a wide margin below three columns of text why you didn't move the gutter beyond where the text wasn't so white, or why you didn't move it down and have it join a rule here because it would have been a real pain in the arse to have to do that in metal, so you just sit and do it. And somehow it looks right when you don't do it. Yeah. Better. And then I got into this whole thing about what I call the invisible descender theory, which is a joke in my studio but it's been going on for, you know, nearly twenty years so it's become a law. Tell me about the law, then. Well the theory is that you don't, in metal type if you have a line of caps you can't just jamb another line right under the baseline because there has to be room for the ascenders, descenders. That in fact you exaggerate that space a little bit, you add a little bit more space to help out that line and that's why if you have a headline you put a little extra space . It's sort of descender protection. And you can mass type, erm mass headlines, and we do negative type leading and all the rest, but you have to add up that extra descender space and put it at the bottom of the headline. So there has to be — and we always exaggerate that space a bit. Yes, yes. It's like — take a look at this bag!. Yes. The space under the the ‘ninety’ when David Plain remade that for the stickers that went out he took it out, he took half of it out, and that really infuriated me. It's not really enough the way it is, it wouldn't fit on the bag if I made it any more!. Instead of letting the G there overprint the red rule, which Up there too, at the top, there's space. And that's more space than a lot of people would like. A lot of designers would say no that should be floated, it should be visual centre, which is maybe just above centre. I'd say visual centre plus. So that's just a little design style, very simple, to get people to understand. Once they've got it, they can do my layout and I don't have to be there . That's what I was going to ask you on those things. When do you do a newspaper — I've just written down here — you provide a dress and provide a grammar. And erm and I think these are the two things we are talking about, the typo visual is the dress and the typo, what is it, logic, typo lecture is the grammar. The options that they've got for actually saying things, what they can say. At least that's why it's so important to know the sorts of things they are going to say before you can specify for that. But it seems that, I mean, redressing a paper that you know what it says is one thing erm so something like Hillman's Guardian, he knows what words they are going to use in those headlines and he provides them with a new look for saying those words in, but in many ways his redesign of that paper was erm it was an undynamic one in the sense that he was still providing them with elements which they could bolt together to make a page in a classic broadsheet newspaper way. There was gradings of headings and gradings of weights, but it seems to me that you're more interested in sort of through reading and doing, I mean, particularly on the tabloid size newspapers, doing different things. Did you get an El Sol. I should have brought some of these things. No, I've seen one, but I haven't actually I'll mail you one. That'll be great. From the hotel. It'll get there. Yes, yes. It works beautiful over here. That mailing thing in the United States. You look at a mail box in the United States and it looks like it's been abandoned, just barely bolted to the ground any more. I thought, actually, what you were going to ask is how you then get people to follow that style. That is the follow up, yes. Because that's, that's really the trick, and if you have, if you have a style that is fairly simple, then it's easier to explain. I mean I don't think that many people can do convincing Neville Brody pages, presumably he has three of them — the three- or ten, or however many he has, to be able to turn them out with him being around, but as soon as he walks away it's not as good. And the real test if you're designing what we call formats in the United States — sometimes in Europe format means just shape and size — but the underlying design of a newspaper or magazine. The trick is if you go away it doesn't look like you have, and erm the same thing happens in a design studio, or if you're the art director of a publication or of a book publisher, that everybody works together so it looks like it's not all the same person doing everything. I mean it's a team of people who get along and it's very, very hard to do. A lot of his personality, you know you have to like jolly people into liking and sublimating what their own inclination would be to some kind of group style. It's the same job as an editor of a publication has to get writers to go along without it all sounding like he wrote it or she wrote it, and the, but a good editor can figure out how to do that and a good writer likes it because it means erm they'll go together or work better and readers will like it, understand it. So, I would say that the design, the actual literal design, the graphics part of the projects I work on, is twenty percent of the work and the rest is all trying to explain and get it understood. We've started it in our studio, bringing their people into the city or setting up a kind of branch over there where people can work together and so you don't get the political problems of ownerships, of people saying well that's your idea, you know, it's the old thing of as soon as the client thinks that it's his idea then he wants it , and it's very hard. It's a difficult thing to do. Within the Rolling Stone thing, I mean, part of it has you as the chief designer and you have to accept the notion that two heads are better than one, which means designers cannot Yes, yes. The plates are over scale! In Rolling Stone we used to, you know I've never been one of the designers who erm sketches little thumbnails and makes people, makes assistants follow them through. Basically what I like to do is have a conversation about the project and then get the designer to come up with an answer. A good deal of the time he or she can get it the first time. You know, if you work together a little bit. Sometimes if it's completely wrong you start over, or you have to get in and actually wade into the paper and do some design work on it, but the other thing is allowing a certain sense of experimentation. Then you say okay, let's try this. Being able to print the experiments, or at least get them out there somehow, is really important because they get the thrill of the designer and your colleague really gets the thrill of working out without a rope, without a net. And then that's where the Mac comes in so importantly, because it gives you that straightaway. Right. And it think that — I mean I like to have, if you go back and look at a Rolling Stone when I was doing it, there are pages in there, I would say one third of all the pages in there, you would not even want to print today. I mean, within the context of the publication the quality range is so wide that it's shocking. Everything else — the floor has been raised, so all publications at the consumer level are slick and there is no bad, just bad layout. There may be badly thought out things, but there is not just clumsy stuff, but there is also isn't any wild card. The Brody image really was much wilder in the beginning, I mean it had Oh that's why it had so much impact, because it really was different on that. By allowing the experiments you get to the next stage. In a group effort, like a publication or a magazine, you know, you don't have to hold people back, they'll go all the way. There's this guy I'm hoping to see in Paris this week is Vincent Winter who is the designer of Rolling Stone and we worked the best of everybody here off of each other. He really liked my style, but he wanted to push, he wanted to go beyond that. He didn't think it was enough. He thought is was too flat, too dated for nineteen seventy, or whatever year it was . And so he's the one who started doing this — I don't know if you remember Rolling Stone during that period he started getting slight, not really new wave, but we used some of the constructivist thing of breaking pages somewhat and pushing things on angles or erm My favourite was his Bob Dylan spread which actually I did, but it was based on what he was trying to get me to do, where everything read left to right and everything was, you know, point sizes lined up and everything was on a column grid, but it was, when you looked at it you had to, you know, like focus on it. It was more of a slap in the face and then you started to look at it, rather than, you know, a traditional page. And it was really fun that way. I think that's what Priest, I mean I don't know, Priest probably has a whole history of how he got is Esquire style, but Vincent went over there and had something to do with it, and I really think that taking the old style stuff and giving it a new spin helped, and the difference between what we're doing and what the California crowd was doing — and this was also the time of punk rock — was that we were using traditional typefaces and they were Yes, yes. Univers or something. I mean the constructivist would never Univers They'd have used Venus. They'd have used anything. Or actually no they wouldn't, they were bold Egyptians, they'd have used all manner of things that they could Some damn printing shop or some job shop that hadn't bought a new type since nineteen fifty or eighteen ninety. Yes, I think, I mean I think that's partly why the English reaction was against you on all manner of grounds. But no doubt just sheer distaste of the actual typefaces used, which were the winkle-bag was the description they used to be given. I'm going to see if this thing is still erm Yep, we've still got some on that side, so that's okay. Anyway, so that gets back to the thing over policy. If you're really rocking and rolling in the art department and you're allowing some of the experiments to see their way into print, even if they're not so, they don't have that slick veneer that people seem to want in the marketing department, progress results and the rawness helps and the thing that makes Jack Stoffagers pages so wonderful is that they are unfiltered, you have the feeling that it's the printer talking to you, determining something that he's read, you know, he wants you to read. And that communication is the more direct for that. It hasn't been turned into a T V commercial. And it goes back to what we were saying about why some of these founders types which are somewhat slapdash are more readable and more interesting and get your attention. Yes, every now and then the temptation to do something sort of very cool and very sort of ten point Univers and you do it for a bit, and you've done it and then you use some proper faces instead. The English advertising agencies started getting into a very interesting style about three years ago and then they kind of blew it away, they forgot which started letter-spacing upper and lower case. That was when they started sliding downhill again. Yes, the whole, I mean, that seems to have stopped I hope, but it was a real problem area that, I mean When Perpetua came back it was really bad news. Yah, letter space, lower case and bold italic. I don't know, I felt that was, I mean, erm it's so easy to be snobbish, but if the problems of experimentation that comes out of accident because you want to achieve an accident and you want to achieve the fall of things on the page, and the accident that occurs because, as you say, nobody's ever told you that you're not supposed to do that, so the accident isn't a case of reacting against a rule to test it, to see whether it would stand up to being broken, the one that's just happened I think, I There aren't very many, I mean, it gets back to the other thing which is underlining my thinking about this stuff because erm you're dealing with cultural form. Some of the communication work is done for you. The problem with The Guardian is that it doesn't look like a newspaper any more. mhm, mhm. And thus the reader has to go more than the usual way he goes to understand what he's looking at. It may be a reader of The Guardian today after two years of seeing it now gets it. Yes, yes. But it's not good for new readers. I'm, I think, I think I've got a different criticism which is that much of it is still too much like a newspaper erm that it's, as I say, that the modular structure of the news pages is too relentlessly like, almost like, the Times of eighteen twelve, I mean too relentlessly little blocks that sort of sit there and although there's Helvetica bold in the headlines, it's, somehow the relationship and flow of stories in many ways doesn't seem to have changed, it's the presentation Well, I think, erm I also don't like to text face. I mean I love Nimrod It looks like there is some kind of compromise going on between really nineteen sixties modern and a traditional newspaper. I mean it didn't really break The compromise, I think, was really on the format because he really wanted to go tabloid erm and Did you see the Minneapolis Tribune like the early sixties? Mhm, yes. I mean that was really a breakthrough. Yes, yes. Maybe not a good one, but it was That's what I meant about He went all the way through. That was the equivalent of Matthew's point about the design being locked to the technology. It was easy to cast a slug that was of the body size, therefore your paragraphs were separated by a slug that was the body size, you didn't put a three point which is what you'd have probably wanted. If you'd wanted to separate off your paras, you'd put in a full size slug because it was easy to make up and the whole thing was absolutely modular erm but perhaps it would have looked better if it had been A four, or you know, Swiss in some way. Yeah, it would have. I mean it was taking that whole Swiss thing and saying that okay these are the new rules, whereas The Guardian accepts some of the old rules. Yes, yes. I mean I think I think there's something really dated about it too. It's funny. This It's very funnily printerly about it in its odd way. I mean the textface, which is Nimrod, is a drawing office typeface and a printer's typeface, and it's there because, I don't know, it If somebody said they wanted Ionic number five slightly different Why is it still there I kept asking? And eventually they said well the stereotype is basically sort of like the equivalent in litho plate making really said that this was, no of course it is metal, sorry it's not metal, it is letterpress The Guardian and it is, they make these Nyclopone plates or something and they really wanted to keep it for that reason. It's great. I think that's still doing. Yes, yes. Let's go back to Do you have a problem erm you've dropped out of the Sunday Correspondent have you? No, I'm going there on Friday . Are you doing the tabloiding? I don't think so. It's possible. I was going to do the tabloiding then they fired Peter Cole . And he was the connection with you. But they've done a tabloid internally and they've asked me to come to take a look at it. I couldn't understand the type choices on that newspaper. It started off all in Melior, with the text — the text I think was in Melior or Melior tells me that the text was originally in Melior with ordinary Melior headings, then when it appeared it was Nimrod with Melior bold. Was it Nimrod or something else? Oh, it's the other one, is it Clarion? Clarion. That's the one with the curly R, as opposed to the Nimrod which is straight. Yes, not much different, same idea. Ionic number five sort of redone. Then you erm had them put in Modern number seven. That wasn't me. That wasn't you? That was Fiona, Fiona Hill, who was there at the . She couldn't stand the Melior and they said well give us something. She said it isn't English and they said okay let's have something English, and so she used this Modern number seven. It's thin or it's boring, take your choice. But it's exactly what those aint. It wasn't customised. It would have been great to have done. I mean we've got a font called Dryden, which is Scotch-Roman as Monotype call it and it would do it. That done to Scotch would have been great. When a first digitise something like You show them that it doesn't work. And then we're going to do a new Dow text and a new Scotch-Roman for their headlines and I've always wanted to do that. I love Scotch. I like Monticello do you know that. Yes, yes. Have you ever seen that used in display. It's amazing. Yes, yes. That's what I even had to hand letter it to get it to get it to look like itself. There's something really interesting in doing that Bell-Scotch look, but erm well I also like to just plain Miller and Richard old style. They could have done worse at the Correspondent, but they couldn't get it. And I, yah, it doesn't work very well as a headline face. I think that will go. All I did was to tell them to get rid of the Helvetica but . I said and they said . Yeah. I think at the moment it, The Correspondent, looks like a rather bad advertisement for monotype typefaces. And I always feel it's a reverse situation, you know, about Stanley Morrison saying he would prefer to pay Monotype not to put an ad in, erm to pay The Times not to put an ad for Monotype. It's almost as if Rene Kerfante were to say that he ought to tell The Correspondent not to use his typefaces, but they need to get something, I don't know, more coherent though. What they need is life. The whole thing is just — it looks like a motion picture art director's. Someone said well we'll just have a generic British paper because, you know, we're going to do a story about a newspaper office and we need something like a newspaper but isn't actually one. Oh, desert time, are you having any desert? Mmm. Where am I looking? Right at the bottom here. Do you want to split it? I think that's a good idea, actually, two plates and two spoons and in we go. So, the, erm yah, I'd like to do, I mean, the notion of having a tabloid here that's, you know, like a hip tabloid, like mid . In Britain I don't think the time is right for it. No. I'm not sure that The Correspondent came first, no I'm not sure that anybody came first. I think if you're Yes, yes. and colour and had a real youth kick to it. Yes. That was sort of like forties and under. Yes, yes. Baby boom and below. And you'd covered the acid house and you'd covered AIDS and you'd covered all the social issues, 'cos that's was missing from the British press — it's all like conventional politics as usual, or you get the Or it's, or it's Just sex and scandal. Yes on top. I think that you could do something in between here, but I don't know the country well enough to say exactly that mix would be. It's funny 'cos, I mean, the T V news actually provides that function in this country, I think, of the middle ground, whereas it seems to me on a very limited sort of reading that the T V news erm provides a different sort of service in the States. It seems to provide, I don't know, the erm almost the opposite way round, it provides you with really heavy stuff or with the sort of daytime chat shows, just the sort of tabloid equivalent. And the newspapers are a operation. I'm not sure you could take a tabloid in this direction I'm about to propose that would also appeal to some popular customers, but it's like, last night everyone was reminiscing about Type ninety and the high points and one of the things that came out in conversation was that there was enormous amount of sex going on which I suppose there is at all conferences, you know, but this one seemed to be, you know, the randiest conference in recent memory. And why is that? I mean everyone was really charged up, there were a lot of — nobody got some sleep. Mhm. Completely zonkered. The speakers, you know, certain unnamed speakers were like on the prowl and the mild mannered Georgiana Greenwood, the calligrapher, was having orgies in her rooms at Christ Church every night. At three o'clock in the morning you could look up and their windows were blazing with light. And, you know, lots of thumping in the hallways and stuff. It's like, you know, a lot of people who were at the conference were completely unaware of all this because they were working so hard. . But, okay, so everyone is interested in that, you know, and particularly if it's sex in high places. They love it, it's perfect, so then you get to, you know, pop culture in general and the British press does a better job of covering rock and roll and, you know, social life than the American press does. I mean all the good papers have several pages every Sunday in the Times and the Telegraph. The Independent do some incredible in the dailies. The following stuff, you know, like the pirate radio station goes legit, they do a page on. In America we'd get like a column, and erm, but I think you could even do more, that the real life, the people, you know, is in the high street and the shopping malls and, you know, there's a lot of kind of horoscope and gossip and stuff that could go into a paper that could be fun. And things like Time Out and so on, and City Limits, tried on the listings in the culture front seem to be seduced by, on the one hand, the need to simply provide information in terms of the listings, or then they felt some kind of twinge of conscience and had to be counter-balanced by radical politics on the other side, which produced a completely split, a paper that you could tear in half and read it as two sort of separate things, and erm and they always erm and something like that always felt That's definitely a fuel, I mean that's conversation for things missing in and those listings. Mhm. We don't have a Time Out in New York because It's all in there in the Times. But, anyway, I think there is room for that and I think basically what I would propose is forget the tabloids and do an A four newspaper. It's big enough to do anything on? Yeah, do a daily magazine. Mhm. All colour and make it really easy for people to read , like A B C, abz as they say in Madrid. sorry that was It's hideous, except for the logo which they've almost destroyed. There's a little tiny so you can imagine what it might have looked like in the old paper. They used to have a every day, eight pages round the outside. It had in the front all news pictures, in the back all gossip and pictures. And the inside had no pictures at all, still doesn't, drawings like, you now, Le Monde, or . Anyways it kept sort of almost conventional and now it's essentially A four. Crickey. And erm it's wonderful. You don't have to like, make any room for it at all, and you can start doing paint layup and but you can do magazine pages. Yes, yes. text,picture, and it's still smaller than the pictures that run every day in these oversize English papers. It's interesting, the English sort of Staple of. That's important. I mean erm the, I mean, erm the closest I ever get to sort of news design is redesigning the Oxford University Press Gazette, and one of the first things when they said it's got to go A four was well in that case you've got to staple it, because you can't have thirty-two, sixty-four pages A four sort of doing that. out. Float out. It's, it's erm enough of a shock changing it to A four without stapling it, you know. People like to pull out the job supplement in the middle and, you know, they've got to be able to do that easily 'cos they throw the rest away, you know, and read the job supplement and they well. Why don't they just print the job supplement ? It's going to be . You're wasting your money. That was Did you see this thing that they printed at Type ninety in letraset. Oooh that gets d.t.p. a bad name. Letraset? I know we got a mention in it for the museum and that was, oh did you get your keepsake? Did somebody collect it for you? No. I don't think so. 'Cos there was an envelope there for you with your name on and it had been ransacked. Ah. Too bad. Gone. If you want it I'll send it to you. I'd like to have it. erm I erm I did get — did you take a good look at the, yes, wasn't that beautifully done? Yes, yes, yes. I thought it was lovely. It was just so nice. What impressed me was the design was great, but the objects, the books as things. They really did it well. Yes, yes. And the one thing that's so difficult Have you ever been to his home? No, no, no. I was just there for Type ninety, and he has a wall of books in his living room that — the shells are some kind of Danish wall system from nineteen fifty-five and it seemed, you know, that the shelves were slightly saggy, a few nicks and scrapes, so it's not new looking at all. Great fifties design. And books were stacked, you just can't believe it. I don't know where he puts the bad ones . Everybody has some books that they want to hang on to that . Yes, yes. Every single book is beautiful. Amazing things. And then he has a study that has a similar wall of reference set of shelves and then I guess that maybe his bedroom has of this, but it's erm and such a nice guy, a pleasant kind of man. His life is, somehow he's managed to bring it all around so that everything is perfect. Did you meet his daughters? Two daughters were there. No, no, I didn't. Angela erm. Let's see, take this, go easy on the strawberry. A bit of colour coding on that. No, I mean, I wrote down here what tone of voice — English obsession with newspaper class, which is what I was talking about format which you covered, and I said that I felt that in the States that seems to an outsider only the New York Times, but even that sort of, as you say, covers a whole range of non-quality, from a British point of view non-quality, press. We have an anti-tabloid bias too. It's very hard to get away with doing a tabloid in the U S. It's not, I mean, we don't have the class potential you guys have. Mhm. I know. You see this is the thing that worries me because, you know, when I stand up and say I like what John Dreyfus did and I think his looks very good and I maintain the traditions of the Oxford University Press, I can suddenly feel that I'm being typecast as being in the English tradition of typography as a revered art and the Morrisonian thing and the whole thing separate from, you know, a culture within a culture and a separate thing. And, I don't know, it seems that actually you've got a very good sense of using all those traditions to inform things that happen, things that you do and erm you're not locked in being regarded as in that sort of tradition and the pressures that result from that. Yeah, well, I don't like that either. There was Morrison phrase that was quoted in the play — did you go to the play? Prissy private press. Yes, yes. Or private pressiness, something like that. Yes, that was interesting, I mean several of the people who came to see the I mean that Updike, of all people, was the worst . Mhm, mhm. There is that kind of, sort of long-necked attenuated of that style it's very boring. Updike was really a two-dimensional typographer. He had, he knew his stuff obviously, but he — I mean the fact, the way looked on Goudy and that whole thing, he just couldn't take himself beyond that certain . Of course Morrison is not unlike him, but, I don't know, it's interesting, I mean Bruce Rogers I think is my hero in terms of designers, but at the same time, I mean, the nineteenth century stuff, I like even this ornamented stuff that they're doing. That's a great turn up. I mean there is grotesque — Bruce Rogers was doing grotesque when I was only two feet tall Did he ever use a grotesque any time in his life? Sorry, did Did Rogers even use a sans serif? I doubt it. Dwiggins did. We're doing some new Metros. Design, yes a Metro, I've always wanted to like Metro, but never quite managed to. I was put off it from an early age because it used to be used in the by-lines in the Daily Telegraph and it sort of and it looked a bit wrong. It always looks as if I've gone along with a sort of scalpel at the bottom of the letters as well, a sort of shaved off But also, I did, I did something that There's something very sort of loose. Yes, yes. never still together and then fit together . The shapes are correct. Yes, they sort of Bong off together like beads that have gotten loose of the string so, but Parkinson — did you meet him?— he was, Parkinson was the guy who did the Rolling Stone typeface and he was here. He has a new . Oh, yes, yes, yes, yes, I did, sorry. He had the first near violent encounter at Type ninety — did you hear about this, the fist fight with Benguiat. No, no. The first day Benguiat accused him — Parkinson printed up this sheet as a handout with which the finished examples had the logos that he was exploring in the lectures and one of them was the New York Times magazine, and of course Benguiat had done the original job for the New York Times and the magazine, the other magazine, so he thought that what Parkinson was showing was an example of a redesign, relettering of an existing logo, and perhaps he shouldn't of said that, you know. , but Benguiat took it as like a threat to and went after him in the lobby of hall and they had to be prised apart. Parkinson didn't enjoy it, but the story is not over. I got to , Benguiat's girlfriend and told her the whole story and told her to explain to Benguiat and calm him down and he had like threatened to come to Parkinson's speech and disrupt it and scream liar and things like that at him. She stayed on at the hotel and distracted him and then the next day other people got to him and explained that Parkinson was really a nice guy and that it was like painting and . The real story is that the logo was originally designed, was drawn, but Lou Silverstein. He took a piece of tracing paper over the old one though and Germanicised it and took it away from what we call Old English. Yes, yes, yes. And made it more black letter. Mhm, mhm. And it up and Benguiat did the final. And then another part of the story is he made a whole alphabet without telling the Times and they . Anyone can set his newspaper in the New York Times lettering style without paying the Times a nickle . In fact at times the Moonie, the Reverend Moon newspaper, did so . Their lawyers are not, but they had a promotion out. And the Times stepped on them? The New York Tribune set exactly like the Times. Anyway, Benguiat made up to him and gave him a big kiss and then the next day things got bad again because Parkinson was going to in room number two above this floor to sort out his slides and Benguiat had been in there and evidently he had just decided to tuck his shirt in and loosen his trousers and while he was tucking his shirt in Parkinson came in and says aha, caught you with your pants down, and Benguiat storms out of the room . I mean none of these people are like, you know, like wallflowers. People would imagine that a type conference would be an extremely dull affair, but in fact it was like , barely able to control himself at any one time. Did you hear about the Apple party? Yah I've heard various references to this . I didn't make it over there because I was at another party, but after the dinner, the night before last, they all went over to the Apple Playroom and started drinking, ordering from room service and making more . They all got totally zonkers and were like running from machine to machine making and Benguiat the, not Benguiat,Brillo , was yelling it should be like this all the time . Everybody like — so Brody was over there making erm what was he trying to do — I can't remember, some character , three hours, he wasn't . I went over and looked at some of the characters. Did you go in that room? Yes, yes. Some of the characters that people produce from this and they did them like Parkinson did, a Rolling Stone ball J, but outlined in drop shadow. In fact we made rubber stamps for people in the office — the departments to go in , the bureau, and the stamp was the J because they were all photostated to that made this stamp just loved it. It was already long anyway, so that's where he got that I think, but there were others, you know, beautiful. Cleo Huggins made a tree that had another little notch on top, so it had this kind of Arabic feel. With a . Very beautiful. Everybody Are they going to appear? They say they are going to ship them with every System seven, you get this . So I went in there and I thought oh God, I mean I could, if you gave me, if I did a nice sketch and worked on it, if I spent a day a might Yes, yes, yes, yes. But against these guys. Yes. So hopeless. So what I did was I used Illustrator and did a, used a free hand tool and drew a really sloppy dollar sign which looked kind of dangly dinosaurish, only with the inside with a nice curve, so they could see that I wasn't a complete You tried at that point. Then I put a little like a slobber drip mark, with a little window A petro dollar. Yah, like an ailing petro dollar . They didn't, the Apple didn't like it , they didn't want to put it in the font. Yah, it was a fun conference, quite nuts, glad it's over . Let's see what's going on here. I think we've covered all this. Closed systems, black boxes, text formats, oh what's this, oh yes, this was talking about the people you put in. Oh yes, I thought, I had thoughts about the tabloid format and requiring more creative day to day input if you're running stories across page and setting up sequences. Yah. More of an art department. And it's more of an art department. Then it should be a magazine. I think that erm what I'd like to do is an A four daily that's all colour, all digital, so that you get picture syndrome moments before you go to press you can get them to print. The San Francisco Examiner, which is a paper I did, I started using digital photography for local news coverage. They had Nelson Mandela giving a rally at two in the afternoon on the steps of City Hall or wherever it was, and at three they had a colour photograph of him out on the streets. The edition was out on the Yah, in colour. Now that's, that's a very interesting for a homeward bound commuter, you know, getting into the tube and you grab one of these papers and you read it and in fifteen minutes you get to Oakland fifty minutes, why turn on the news? You have it. It's particularly easy in California where we have a great time advantage. Three hours Yes, yes, 'cos you're catching all Nine hours in Europe. So the whole day is done by the time you get started, so you can close out the foreign and even the U S domestic edition, domestic news, before you And leave your city news on the front and put that in as the That's only live stuff, really live, the night crew can do the rest, just about. So then you're up to date, but three in the afternoon you've got the C B S evening news, 'cos they're also three hours earlier. Most of their stuff is pretty dated. And it's in print form. What, what time erm although I've been to San Franciso, I've never worked out what time the evening news is there. Is it delayed? Everything's changed. Oh, you mean how does the national news work? How does the national T V news work. They have erm in breaking new situations, if there is something big going on, you know, or during the democratic convention or whatever it is, or this Iraq thing, the anchors stay around the studio and then maybe do a replay, so to speak. It's actually a whole new edition. For each time zone, or for They do it a half hour later or an hour later and if that holds, erm I think they usually, you know, it's always at least an hour So if it holds they'll replay it and if it breaks But if it doesn't hold, at the very end what they'll do is break in on it ‘and now the special report from Dan Rather in Baghdad, and then you see Dan Rather and when he's done there's a commercial and then it goes back to whatever they were doing on tape. Yes, yes. But it's confusing now because they put the news on and you can watch the evening news on the first feed at five o'clock in the afternoon now in San Francisco. Oh, 'cos they're taking it from the East Coast feed. Yah, they're taking it off the satellite and it used to be there was always the seven o'clock news, except in central side when it was always the six o'clock news, but now it's on at like any old time, five thirty, six thirty, seven. I get totally confused because I end up watching C N N anyway, so it's C N N is good. C N N are particularly good at the Iraq thing, they're the only ones to watch. They were there. But I think you could do, see the whole great thing about what's happening in this electronic change in print is that broadcasting's advantage has been almost completely wiped out. They are crippled by the number of people it takes to get something on the air, whereas in print, I mean it's still a lot of people if you're doing a daily paper, but one reporter can write a story and get it on the air, or get it in print. So the relative cheapness of having correspondence in string with just a fax machine dotted around the place instead of having machines and cameras and sound crews. Yah. Well yes you see, yah, or they use electronic mail to bring it in. Type it in and it's captured, done, and they use digital photography or remote scanners. It's amazing what could happen. So you do that and then you do it, you art direct it like a magazine. You have certain formatted sections that are the news, straight stuff, or running tabular matter or whatever, but then somebody weighs in on each section, at El Sol we have a graphics person on each desk, but they're divided into work groups so different work groups do different pages. So everybody, it's sort of like miniature, it's like desk top publishing. Right. It's like twenty desk top publishing teams brought together. Mhm. And so, you know, on the business desk you might have three teams and the first team is only doing the first page and the opinion and the second team is doing a large amount of financial news and the third team is doing the company news, and then the erm there's a graphics person who's working on charts and stuff. The data comes in almost without intervention, fills in the pages, and someone just checks it to make sure it fits and erm that's a great system. So you could actually, if you've got, if you then put, if those graphics people were fairly high powered art directors and they didn't, they didn't, they weren't like, didn't have to show all their stuff, that they had enough news sense to not make any more mistakes than most layout people do on newspapers, which are sometimes colossal, like burying the lead or putting the big story on page thirty-eight, you know. Then you could like start attracting, I think, younger people to read newspapers again. Mhm. I don't, I mean, we're still a relatively literary society. There's no reason why you couldn't appeal to people and erm for reading, you know, I mean it's like well don't make it in T V, put text in there, but also make it visual. Yes, yes. Visual information and not just, you know, kids and or whatever the popular press thinks you are. I think that's, I mean I think that's why the, the two interesting ends of the U K press are the tabloid end, because it looks, it looks as if it's sort of forged in the heat of hot metal and steaminess and erm the top end and things like the Express and The Mail seem to be entirely flabby in the middle. Yah. They're floating around in a very, I mean Today was the worst. When it first appeared it was absolutely parochial. It looked like the Oxford Mail on a bad day. Again it was how not to use the monotype library. Again it was Nimrod. It was Nimrod, it was Nimrod with Univers, it was, except occasionally there'd be Grot nine, not because you felt they wanted to use Grot nine, but because they'd said well what's this one that hasn't got serifs. I mean it had that sort of look to it. Yeah, it probably was. They seem to drift about in the middle and good grey columns or rudeness at the other end of the market. I wish the London Times got better. Yah, it is sad. It did, just a few years ago, it was a good . I mean I think shrinking the broadsheet width has spoilt it a lot. But there's something very pro forma about it and also the fonts are, they're not display fonts, they're using fonts. No, again it's not quite Times, which is the pity, because it was the last repository of hand-set monotype, I mean individually cast monotype display headlines erm and Fi ligatures. What so they now just use Times Bold for a headstyle? And it's just the text. I mean they did have it redrawn from the You see if I would go back, if I were doing it, to Times Heavy Titling or one of those do it all caps forget that. The titling is absolutely lovely, I mean just wonderful. The worst thing they ever did was on the leader page, the last one they got rid of the Extended Titling on. And I remember the day it went from Extended Titling to three three four and it was just three three four, it didn't look as if it had ever been intended to set these lines. That was a great, those were great, those were great faces. Well the other thing is they could use, I mean, Monotype should bring out the whole . Where is Times book, Times Wide? And Times Light Caps, which is even better. There you go. Let's go over there and beat the shit out of them . They did bring out Times Small Ads and I did try and do a Bible in it but it didn't work. Oh you gave up on that? I gave up. Why? I used Swift instead. What made you give up? They didn't erm the Monotype, bless them, stayed too true original drawings and didn't put any thickening on thins. I mean there was no ink squash. Oh, so it was anaemic? It's, it's, it's, I mean it's like your Modern Number One again, I mean although the character shapes are lovely, I mean although your G looks like that, is exactly the shape you want it to be, these thins here are real hairlines and that's exactly what you don't want it to be in six point, so I stretched the Swift by ten percent. You extended it, or? Extended it. Interesting. I hadn't counted that idea, possibility, you talked about condensing it. Yes. I rang Gerard up and said I think I'm going to condense your typeface and he said yes, yes, condense it by seven percent, I don't mind, which I thought Yah. He says that publicly. erm but then I sort of thought, no, well let's expand this one. To add weight, is that why you did it? It adds weight, I mean it's just to make the letters bigger. It's simply to make the letters bigger and try and get some sense of flow He did it as a very narrow face. Yes, yes. It's not quite but it's more of Expanding you can always do, it's condensing that's tricky. I mean I remember when I was at the New York Times and I wanted to use Cheltenham wide for a headline, Cheltenham bold well sort of bold wide, but it's just called Cheltenham wide in the book, and because Cheltenham was always part of the New York Times library, whatever you call it, in the composing room. And when I took over the magazine I said let's just use the typefaces that they use in the newspaper and supplement them for some headlines, but try to make it belong in the New York Times. So I expanded to thirty percent on the, they had a Metroset in those days, and I said, you know, this is not likely to work so I'm sending it out getting handset phototype, so I did. It came back and it was exactly the same. I mean it was unbelievable, it was uncanny, because all they had done at A T F was, you know, gear it on the pantograph and there was no redrawing or adjustment whatsoever . I mean usually that just doesn't work because I mean the Guardian, they used to be more bold expanded in the Guardian except for and it was gross. It was a . When they tried to set it by setting and him out It was horrible. Because it was that point that erm David Berlow made about howthe Condensed Century was done, where he took the Torino serifs and put them on . It was exactly that problem. The original had, although it was a very broad face, actually had very finely tuned serifs, and that was, they just got crude when you pulled . Jim Parker If it was it wouldn't matter because he's got such a on it anyway. It's a horrible typeface. I still like it . Jim Parkinson did a logo for a magazine called Ocean, where he took Times Bold, widened it slightly and then thinned the serifs and thinned the horizontals way down, and it was wonderful. You know as a big word ‘Ocean’ it looked fantastic. It made Times just look super elegant, you know, and yah I, that's what's wrong with all the foundries now, they forgot where they came from. They've lost sight of there — oh, I've got to get going, what's your schedule. What did you do to your finger? You ran into something? I ran into a earlier on and it's just opened again. My exciting schedule this afternoon is the knobs and knockers meeting at four o'clock. The what? Where we decide what colour the formica in the lavatories in the new building is going to be. You're kidding? I'm not kidding. Why are you on that committee? Because of your exquisite taste, right? My exquisite taste in lavatory fittings . It seems to me to a be a great joke — do they call it the knobs and knockers committee? You do, you call it that? The members of the committee call it the knobs and knockers committee. They do that's wonderful. Christ Church are slamming us because we haven't got the stuff out of there fast enough. They're not a very pleasant lot to deal with. We had to change the lock on their door, and the bloody lock cost thirty seven quid and each key cost five quid to cut, so we're giving them fifty seven quids worth of security for nothing and they complain because I'm not out by twelve o'clock. They were not happy with the Type ninety group. Georgiana Greenwood may have been partly to blame, but it had to do with the fact that we really weren't running the conference out of the college. They like it everyone is sort of their trundling around, the library is showing up for lunch. There are wild variations where one lunch was scheduled during ATyp — can we have our checks and bills please — one lunch was estimated at seventy people, seventy-eight people and one hundred and fifty came . And then another lunch was estimated at two hundred and eighty and forty-five came , and it kept swinging like that all week and they never knew what the hell was going to happen so they got really aggravated and then we had, you know, some of the kids, the Ban-the-Bezier group were wandering around with their face masks and their Type ninety bags over their heads and were saying crude things over a megaphone in Tom Quad, right and then these bowler hatted policemen, whoever they are, were patiently explaining to a number of girls who were sunbathing on the lawn that this wasn't done quite that way here . There was a lot of that . You're exactly right. You can imagine two hundred . Another punt to the left you know. I think they quite enjoyed it. Michael Gough, my editor, works for me in New York and he said he went to get a key to get back in after they had closed and they said why and he said because I think that I will be back later than your gate is locked. What are you going to do. And he said it's none of your business . They were like — this was not a convincing argument. They said there's nothing to do after eleven in Oxford . And he said something which even annoyed them more, which is something like there is nothing going on in Oxford before eleven that I'm interested in doing . The one thing that was going on in Christ Church was good — did you see the exhibition, the exhibition The what? The exhibition at the Picture gAllery. What was going on there? There was a little exhibition called The Nude and basically they've got a nice little Picture Gallery there with sort of various things in, but they also had some lovely anatomy books beside it and so on, some amazing engravings, you know, entire body structures, skeletal man, muscular man,. I was quite interested 'cos we're actually doing a book on the history of anatomy at the moment, but there was, it was, again that was a nice little theme in the middle of everything else. It's called the Picture Gallery. Yes, yes. Proper Renaissance, proper Baroque pictures Yes, they have them here at Oxford. It's wonderful. They drag them back from Italy at various times. Yes, yes. What your A Y things that you are drawing there? Oh that was when you were talking about your imaginary descenders. Ah. I need to see some papers though. Some newspapers? Do you have a card on you? Or where do I — can I write down an address on a piece of paper and I will try to mail them from the hotel. I've got to get back there and start arranging my erm Well I wasn't very scintillating, I'm sort of tired. Hope you've got enough. Thank you. That's okay. Yah, all those Grots which were done for El Sol. Yes, yes, is seen the outline No that's It's the PostScript generated outline? Yah. It's not a custom outline, or maybe that is It's not a font. If he says it is, maybe he made a font. Well maybe he did tweak it. The one I've seen was that one on the front page. Yah, I didn't know, that, I mean, maybe this is a font. How could it work though? No, it's knocking itself out. No you can do white faces of it. How would it knock out though? Well you could do an outline and then you could shadow it. Yah, but see it's overlapping, like there. How can you make that happen as a font. I think he fakes this, just because they had them in the books . Maybe erm oh not they're not just butting are they? That would work with the T H U R I'll have to find out what he's done. But it wouldn't work with the See in my Yes, yes, I know what you mean, yes, yes, in there and certainly What I keep trying to tell him is that if you do something like this, this space underneath has to be at least as much between the top of the S as the and the baseline and they sell them . Young designers don't get that. May be the lot does . Well, thanks for having put up with this thing. Oh, my pleasure, I forgot it. I think it's probably worth it. But call me up if you don't have enough. Yep, yep. Great. Thank you for lunch. I'll get everything together. You've got to take your card back. They want to do something with it maybe. No, you just have to sign it and take your receipt. They did it. They did it? It's a nice little place. It is, it is, it's re-opened about a week ago, having been shut for re-doing. Good morning, hope you all enjo hope you all enjoyed the meeting last night and er just by way of a change today we've got er er resolutions and debates on the Labour Party and from one socialist party to another can I extend the warmest congratulations of the G M B Labour Party Conference to our comrades in Spain who've been successful in winning a fourth general election. All against the odds, they've come through. Congratulations to Phil Philippe Gonzalez. Er colleagues can I start the today's business by extending a very warm welcome indeed to Councillor Dr. Alan , leader of the City of Portsmouth council. Councillor was born in Carlisle, and he's lived in Portsmouth since nineteen sixty six. Attended three universities, Durham, Indiana and Southampton. Indiana, by the way, is not in Britain. He is currently the principal lecturer in Phys in er in Fac Faculty of Environmental Studies at Portsmouth Polytechnic, and in nineteen seventy nine he was appointed a Justice of the Peace. Councillor 's political background started in nineteen sixty two when he joined the Labour Party. He's been a candidate on six occasions in Portsmouth municipal elections, and in nineteen eighty six was elected to the Havelock ward. From eighty six to eighty nine he was planning spokesperson for Portsmouth City Council and in nineteen eighty nine he was a candidate for the Euro election fo for and East Hants, coming second with fifty one thousand votes. In nineteen ninety, Councillor was re-elected for the Havelock ward, and in nineteen ninety nineteen ninety one he became leader of the opposition for Portsmouth City Council. Colleagues would you extend a very warm welcome to Alan . Erm, Chair, delegates thank you for the welcome and thank you for the invitation to speak to you. I think I've got five minutes which is probably more than some of you delegates have got so I'll keep it fairly short and sweet. I'm, we're very proud that the G M B has come to Portsmouth at last er and er that your flag is flying in the Guildhall square. Last week we had the Co-op Congress, and the week before that we had the Basque flag flying from socialist Spain because of our new links with Bilbao the ferry service there. I asked my neighbour, er I'm not a member of the G M B unlike the deputy Lord Mayor who spoke to you yesterday Give him a er You can collect your application form on the way out if, if, if I could, I would have been I assure you. Er, I'm a member of N A T F E, one of those funny educational unions. But erm, one of my neighbours works for A C A S and I asked him er, his opinion of the G M B, and he said good negotiators, hard negotiators, but very good at getting better conditions for their members and I think he, and certainly I knew before, that the G M B is one of the most progressive trade unions in this country and we're very pleased to have them in Portsmouth. Er, delegates, I think sometimes conferences are held in a bit of a vacuum, you know, here you are in, in the hall, in the Guildhall er outside in the City of Portsmouth so can I say just a few words about Portsmouth. It's a real place, in many ways, if you if you walk round the small terraced houses, certainly in the area that I represent in Southsea, it looks a bit like a northern city. Neat terraced houses, densely populated, it doesn't vote like a northern city unfortunately. Very dependent on defence, and I know some delegates here work in our local defence industries, or in the dockyard, always been attached to defence and vulnerable now because of defence cuts. We have a, an unemployment rate officially of twelve thousand, probably the real figure as you well know is up probably sixteen thousand in a city of less than two hundred thousand. We have some new industries, I B M for example, but I B M are shedding labour at a very fast rate, something like seven hundred people are going in the next year, so we have our problems in Portsmouth. Don't let anyone suggest that it's all flourishing on the south coast, not so. We have a Labour-led council, which I'm proud to be the leader. We have only fourteen Labour councillors out of thirty nine and you'll be wondering how we manage to lead the council. Well, rightly or wrongly we've come to arrangements with the Liberals, not because we like the Liberals, not because we wanted to, but we, we were fed up with be being in opposition to tell you the truth. Year after year, watching the Tories make a mess of it, so we we've done, we've come to this temporary arrangement, and it's worked I think. Most of the time, comrades as you well know, it's damage limitation. In local councils, in trade union movement it's damage limitation, it, it's stopping the worst of Tory legislation and policies, in particular C C Ts. I'm proud that in the last two years under my administration we have not had one compulsory redundancy, and it's not easy I can assure you. We've had to make a million pounds savings this last year. We've got our ferry port, very proud of our municipally owned ferry port, I hope some of you will use it, or if you haven't done so already. A huge success, the government have said next year we can only borrow one million pounds to invest. Nowhere near enough, they're trying to get us to sell it off by the back door and we will resist that. A lot of employment there, and important to the local economy and we've managed to take some important initiatives in terms of helping the pensioners in the city, crime prevention, and other issues, so we think we've done a reasonable job. At the moment we're also trying to move our football club er rather a difficult exercise, you can imagine. Anyone from Leicester here? Where are the Midlands? I think I'll erm pass on er issues relating to the Labour Party leadership and er Labour trade union links. I, I've got my views, I'm sure you've got yours, and I shall listen later in the morning to the debate, but I would finally say delegates, that I hope you enjoy your stay in Portsmouth, in particular Southsea where most of you are staying if you have a chance go to the rose gardens, have a walk along the sea front there, there it's magnificent this time of year and a tribute to our staff in our direct works organization for their hard work. The heritage area also, I'm sure Jim said to us yesterday, is well worth a visit if you have the time, to see the Mary Rose and the Victory, and we have a very good selection of Indian restaurants, I recommend the Kashmir in Anyway, welcome to Portsmouth, we're delighted to have you here, and we hope you come again. Thank you. Colleagues, to mark the occasion, I'd like to present on your behalf er a copy of John 's Barrow Bright, and also a suitably inscribed tankard to Alan. Thank you very much. Thanks very much Alan, before we move on to the agenda colleagues, er could I announce that the collection yesterday for the Burnstall strikers realized a magnificent sum of five hundred and forty-nine pounds. and could I extend a very warm welcome colleagues on your behalf to a representative of one of the German trade unions I G which our union is working very closely with in the chemical industry throughout Eur Europe. Reinhart welcome. Right colleagues if you would turn to the General Secretary's report, on page, page one hundred and eighty, and we'll go through the pages from one eighty two to two six nine, one eighty, one eight one, one eight two, one eight three, one eight four, one eight five, one eight six, one eight seven, one eight eight, one eight nine, one nine O, one nine one, one nine two, one nine three, one nine four, one nine five, one nine six, one nine seven, one nine eight, one nine nine, two hundred, two O one, two O two, two O three, two O four, two O five, two O six, two O seven, two O eight, two O nine, two one O, two eleven, two twelve, two thirteen, two fourteen, two fifteen, two sixteen, two seventeen, two eighteen, two nineteen, two two O, two two one, two two two, two two three, two two four, two two five, two two six, two two seven, two two eight, two two nine, two three O, two three one, two three two, two three three, two three four, two three five, two three six, two three seven, two three eight, two three nine, two four O, two four one, two four two, two four three, two four four, two four five, two four six, somebody get me a drink! Two four seven, two four eight, two four nine, two five O, two five one, two five two, two five three, two five four, two five five, two five six, two five seven, two five eight, two five nine, two six O, two six one, two six two, two six three, two six four, two six five, two six six, two six seven, two six eight, two six nine, applaud! Thank you very much Colleagues, I now call the Section Secretary's report, Donald , to ask to give his report. Donald. Donald , National Secretary. President, delegates, the events of last October, and the coal crisis, dramatically showed at once the strength and the weakness of the trade union movement today. Our strengths are obvious, that of compassion, support and feeling for our people when in trouble. The higher feelings of human nature, of concern for another human being. The basic qualities that come from our socialist tradition. It was these strengths that brought thousands upon thousands of people flocking to the banners on that wonderful wet Sunday in Hyde Park. Many, not all, but many were trade unionists who instinctively sympathized with the plight of the miners. That sense of right and wrong, preventing those in power walking all over those weaker than themselves. A memorable and a proud day. But we also remember how that wasn't sustained, and the cynical political fix of the Tories a few months later, that for the moment has coped with the government's political crisis, and temporarily has bought a little time for a few pits. It's done nothing to tackle the short-term nature of the market in energy. It's done nothing to tackle the desperate need for a balanced energy policy that looks at the long-term needs of the country. That problem won't go away. The coal crisis exposed vividly the type of market in energy the Tories had introduced through electricity privatization. This is no natural market, it's a market that scandalously encourages the burning of scarce resources of natural gas, for the production of base load electricity. It's a market that despite our rich coal reserves, is fixed in such a way that it ensures that before the end of the century, will be a net importer of energy. How ridiculous, and all because a politically created market is rigged against coal. It's a market as well that's created a few monsters of its own. It's created companies that are more concerned with their future international profits as global energy companies, than in expanding their home base. It's created senior executives in water, gas and electricity, who have made a killing through massive pay rises, but they pall into insignificance, when you look at the scandal of the share allocations and what's been going on there. In the water companies alone, if you, there are thousands and thousands and thousands of pounds have been made by one or two people, as directors or chief executives of these companies. Severn Trent which held the record for disconnections last year, the chief executive, Roderick sold one hundred and thirty seven thousand shares at four hundred and eighty eight P under a share options scheme, and that was after buying them the same day, for two hundred and sixty two P. It's one of the quirks of the system, one of the little perks of the job, that he has therefore been able to make erm a rather quick killing of three hundred and ten thousand five hundred and thirty five pounds. John who was in actual fact the chairman of the company when it was a public service, he in actual fact made a killing of a quarter of a million. Northumberland, Northumbria Water, the chief executive, David , netted one hundred and fifty nine thousand and the former manage managing director, Robert a hundred and eighty six thousand. All from little deals that pass away quite quietly unless we can bring it to the attention of the public. We know a bit more about their massive pay increases, but not so much is known about the beautiful profits, about the wonderful conditions that they've allocated to themselves. It's a scandal, and it's got to be stopped It's these same senior directors of these same utility companies who are lecturing our members about the problems facing their industries. The problems facing their industries and the need for them to show restraint. It's our members who've the problems to face in these industries. The fragmentation of water and electricity industries, further privatization of water and electricity in Northern Ireland and water in Scotland, market testing in the National Rivers Authority, changes in British Gas with four reports to come from the Monopolies and Mergers Commission in July. The government review of the nuclear industry, brought forward to ninety three. Privatization in nuclear and atomic energy industries on the agenda. It's our members in these industries who've been given a hammering since privatization and who need as much support as possible to give them the confidence to face further difficult years ahead. Far from being lectured by those who're making millions out of privatization. We must take heart from our experience in Hyde Park, we must nurture that support and build up the confidence of our members. It will take time, I've detected, as I'm sure you have too delegates, a feeling of confidence in our debates so far at this conference, a confidence that hasn't been there recently. It's our job to transfer that confidence from the conference hall to the workplace. It won't be easy, but we must take the first steps now. Leading and promoting the debate on energy policy that the government wants to stifle, that presents us with just such an opportunity, if we don't begin to take the fight to the enemy the future is clear. More of the same, more privatization, more fragmentation, more job losses, and more demoralization with our membership. The debate on energy policy is a vital one, and one which the G M B as the only union with a sizable membership in all of the industries concerned, is well placed to lead. It will be a debate, an argument and a fight we must win. Not just for our members in the coal industry and their communities, not just for our members in the coal-fired power stations, not just for all of the rest of our membership whose industries depend on a secure supply of cheap energy, but for our children and the generations to come after us, whose very prosperity will depend heavily on our success in that campaign. The fight back begins now, I commend my report. Here, here. Thanks very much indeed, Donald, page seventy six, seventy seven, seventy eight, Yes okay colleague, come and wait at the front, alright. Er Dave , London region. Just a question for Donald and just er an observation on our negotiation pay conditions from last year, the V I S council and the minimum acceptable performance levels. Many of us in the industry feel that British Gas have broken the agreement by altering er the review dates, now put on a three monthly basis rather than a six monthly. Some of our members have lost their consolidated rate and it's now become a bit of a running sore on the pay negotiations from last year, it needs to be sorted out, if confidence is to remain in last year's pay, pay deal. President, congress, Les , Midlands and East Coast region. Very pleased to hear Donald, er, make comments on the rig rigged market er energy market. It's quite clear that Heseltine and co will not implement the committee's findings. In the East Midlands region, National Power applied to build a gas-fired power station, all the regional authorities rejected the planning application. They went ahead and applied to Hesel Heseltine, who agreed to let them build the power station. Building of this not only closes the thirty one pits but also threatens four further pits in the Notts area. Not only does it close four more pits but it threatens five power stations in the area. Five power stations with fifteen hundred jobs, mostly G M B members. Blatant disregard to the committee's reports and also public opinion. British Coal paid out less in ninety one ninety two, four hundred and ninety two million pound in wages alone. This has been taken out of the local economy in Notts. Thanks. Seventy nine, eighty, and eighty one. Donald. Er, first of all on the comment from Dave in relation to British Gas and the minimum achieved performance level or M A P L er the initials that I've come to er know and love over the past few months, never having heard of them before. Erm, I couldn't agree more, er with er what Dave was saying, erm that er the whole operation of that bonus scheme needs to be thoroughly examined with British Gas. I have informally intimated to British Gas that we'll be taking it up with them, not as a mere procedural matter through the joint secretary's machinery, but as a negotiating matter, with the negotiating committee. There are a number of inconsistencies in that scheme, not least British Gas' delightful decision to interpret the er scheme in a way which they hadn't interpreted six months ago. I'll be delighted to hear from British Gas as to how they can actually turn round and change a national agreement without having any formal discussions with the trade union side at any time at all. So it's absolutely essential that we do go forward formally and take up all the issues in relation to the minimum achieved performance levels and the scheme arising from the consolidation of the effects of last year's pay settlement, but as er most of the delegates from British Gas will know, I've been er ensuring that we first of all get all of the reports in from the regional joint indu regional joint trade union secretaries to ensure that we have as much information for once as British Gas has, about what's going on within the company, and secondly we've had er full debates on the trade union side to ensure we were well aware of just exactly what our recollections were of what happened last year and to ensure we're going forward in a clear and a positive way. So I couldn't agree more, and that will be taken up in the fairly near future, following the information that I've been gathering in the various meetings that I've been having round the country on this. I had a most interesting meeting in Scotland with all of our lay delegates there, erm on Friday and some of you within British Gas will know that in Scotland they've even more problems with the M A P L than any of the other regions because they were operating a different system to start with in the first place. So we've major problems and they need to be taken up. You're quite right. Les on the rigged markets, and I think this go goes to the heart of the problem in relation to the difficulties that we have in relation to coal, the problems in relation to pits, and everything in relation to the whole campaign and what we need to campaign in relation to erm er energy policy and this is absolutely crucial not only for our members within the Energy and Utility Section but for our membership and for their families throughout er throughout the country. It's absolutely essential that there, we make the government recognize that the debate on energy policy is not going to go away. They want to stifle it well and truly. There was a problem during the er evidence to the various committees that were looking at the coal crisis and the problems in relation to coal, in that very often people were translating it into tonnage and the number of pits etcetera, whereas the argument needed to be that the rules of the game had been rigged in the first place at the privatization of electricity and the rules of the game need to be changed if we're gonna succeed. And that must be the way we go ahead. I give you this pledge on behalf of the membership within the Energy and Utilities Section, erm, who recently debated this issue at their conference, that we will pursue the question of er the policy in relation to energy policy. We will pursue it vigorously, and we will campaign to get changed the basic rules which ensure that a country which is rich in coal resources ensures that it makes the most of the use of these coal resources, and changes the rules automatically excluding coal from being used from sensible base burning for electricity laws. Thank you. Right, colleagues, we're now going to the Energy and Utilities debate and er I'd like to propose that we do it in the following fashion. We'll take composite fifteen, erm motion three O eight, motion three O nine, composite sixteen, and composite seventeen. Now, the C E C have got various different positions on, on all these motions, so I'll then call John to put the C E C position on those motions at the end of the debate. So composite fifteen, energy policy to be moved by Southern region, Midlands region to second and again colleagues if supporting speakers could come down the, the front I'd be very much obliged. Thank you Chair, Charlie , Southern region, moving composite fifteen, energy policy. Delegates, some years ago I attended an international energy conference in Geneva. At this conference one of the African delegates described energy as the lifeblood of the nation, but the problem that he had, coming from Africa, was that the country he lived in, they had no coal, they had no oil, they had no gas and they didn't have the technology for nuclear. Yet here in the U K we actually have every one of these. It is important that er we actually develop these for the use of the nation. We have coal which we're leaving now under the ground or we're stockpiling it. We have oil in the North Sea which we are just wasting, we have gas which we get from the North Sea which we don't quite know what to do with it. It used to be regarded as a premium fuel for domestic and commercial use, now we just send it up the chimneys of power stations. And we have the technology for nuclear power, yet again we don't know what to do with it, we haven't developed it, we've just left it and we're creating nuclear power stations and we still haven't even decided what to do with the waste. And we've got technology there that we could perhaps use and export but we just leave it alone. We also have technology on renewables, this country is one of the most advanced, technologically advanced in renewables in the generation of electricity yet we don't put money into investment and resources of it. What do we have? We have a policy called market forces. This leaves coal in the ground, it burns power in power stations to generate, to generate electricity from gas, waste of a premium fuel. No good, has anybody heard about this magic word conservation lately? Since we've privatized all the power generators and the British Gas nobody even talks about conservation any more. It's burn as much as you can, use as much as you can. Now I'd like to just turn to British Gas where I'm employed. British Gas since privatization, and I think rightly so, and understandably, has had a defence policy against this government, and that defence policy is to turn itself into a multi-national energy supplier. It's been quite successful at that, but British Gas within two years, will be no different to Shell, B P or Esso. British Gas is subject, as Donald said, to the Monopolies and Mergers Commission report. That is due out in July. They have a defence mechanism for that, and their preferred option at the moment is to divide British Gas into seven companies, and let one of those companies supply gas in the U K, and I think they're ready to abandon it. If they can't get sufficient profit out of supplying gas in the U K I think British Gas is on the verge of withdrawing from the gas market in the U K, and that a lot of jobs in this country and I think we ought to be aware of that and I think we ought to be campaigning to make sure that doesn't happen. For British Gas, its defence policy is its share price and its shareholders, not its workers, not gas supply in the U K. Who's gonna be responsible for safety once we allow the private market to dominate? We have a regulator that all he's interested in is in fact doing Michael Heseltine's work for him. The previous nationalized energy companies, that was gas, it was electricity, it also covered the water companies as well, were good employers, not only good at employment they were good at their jobs. The they gave good employment, stability of employment, good personal pension schemes, good career progression schemes, they put a lot of money in research and development, security of supply was the key issue for the customer, they put a lot of money into conservation, energy development, and of course, one other thing that they did that this government doesn't like, they actually recognize trade unions, and had trade unions represent the members who work there. Well, none of these unfortunately equate with the free market. The free market is where it's all going. Yet in energy terms the U K is the best po placed country in the whole of Europe. It has oil, it has gas, it has coal. What it doesn't have is a proper energy policy. Now I think it's up to the G M B to push this debate out, and we should say energy is the lifeblood of the U K, not the lifeblood of the speculators in the City of London, or the Tory Party, it's the lifeblood of the people in this hall, and the people outside, and I think we should support a proper balanced energy policy for the U K. Thank you. President, Congress, Steve , Midlands and East Coast, seconding composite motion fifteen, energy policy. Energy policy colleagues, in the U K, is non-existent. The philoscity philosophy doesn't exist within this Tory government that would allow an eler energy policy to be framed. I'll tell you what does exist though, piecemeal short-termism. Quick political fixes in the name of free market philosophy. Doesn't protect people's jobs, doesn't protect the consumer, short-termism that doesn't seek to safeguard our vital natural resources for future generations. Quick political fixes that have a complete disregard for the environment. The efficient use and planning in a coherent, coordinated and balanced way of all our energy resources is essential in the long-term, to safeguard in the long-term, the energy needs of our nation for ourselves and our children. We have the resources but we import coal. Columbian coal, mined by women and children, we have the resources, but we import electricity via an undersea cable from France. We have the resources, but we import gas, and I'm a gas lad as well, and I find that situation farcical. Colleagues, let's end this situation, let the G M B, as the motion states, be in the fore forefront of pursuing an equitable, balanced energy policy to serve this nation now and in the future. Congress, I second. Motion three O eight, Scotland to move. Sammy , Scottish region. What the, President and colleagues as well as presenting himself as a great European leader, a demand which is not seen as be particularly, although at the moment, John Major and his government have sought to present themselves as green. Well, if they're green, all I can say about us, that we must be cabbage-looking. One of the agreements which our government signed at Rio, was for the setting up of a sustainability plan for a British economy, yet ever since the end of that conference, these proposals have been getting successfully watered down and deleted. We need to demand that Major keeps his promise, Britain is already, our willingness to go lightly on transgressors in the pollution field, is becoming legendary. Does it have to take another oil disaster like the Braer tanker, before Britain acts? Already, we're miles behind with catching up with standards which are accepted elsewhere. The labour movement has a role to play here, we need to start building bridges with the ecological movement, Friends of the Earth, and others for a strategy for jobs, for the economy which will tackle unemployment. But not at the expense of the environment and the living conditions of this and future generations. I move The seconder for three O eight seconder for three O eight. Formally seconded, thanks very much, motion three O nine, G M B Scotland to move. Chair, congress, Peter , G M B Scotland, water privatization. The issue of water and the ownership of water in Scotland is a very emotive issue. It's an issue which has totally united every aspect of the Scottish community. I don't have to preach or tell our colleagues in England and Wales the effects water privatization's had on them since nineteen eighty nine, they can see it for themselves every day. and workers made redundant since nineteen eighty nine, huge rises in water charges and the disconnection of water supplies to ordinary people and their families who cannot meet the new high charges for water. It's disgraceful, colleagues, in the later half of the twentieth century in John Major's Britain we have private companies disconnecting the water supply to people, a basic necessity of life itself. Ian Laing in his consultation paper, Investing for our future for Water and Trade Services in Scotland, set out eight options for consideration. The people of Scotland considered these eight options and duly replied with ninety percent of the rep replies including Tory councillors, and Tor Tor and some Tory, Tory-run councils, totally rejecting any form of water privatization in Scotland. But just show Mr Laing that he's not the only one that can Strathclyde water engaged Sir William , in , not exactly a name that friendly with labour councils or trade unionists, to undertake a brief external overview of its strat strategy procedure in capital expenditure programme at a meeting on the twenty third of March. The overview was focused within the documents securing the future, Strathclyde's regional council's er response to the consul date consultation document Investing for the Future. The findings indicated there was probably no major savings in efficiency to be made which would produce a commercial charge more than the present public authority cost. In addition, which previously act previously acted on behalf of private water companies in England and Wales said Strathclyde was providing an appropriate service, with an affordable price which was responsive to local needs. The fact that highly respected consultants verify our conclusions further strengthens an already watertight case against removing the water service from public control. Therefore, we should urge our union and the er sponsored MPs in Parliament to oppose any form of water privatization in Scotland whatsoever, and to campaign for a turn, a return to the water services in England and Wales under properly controlled public authority. I move. The seconder for three O nine. Formally seconded? Thanks very much. Composite sixteen, Public Utilities, Lancashire region to move, Southern region to second. Samantha , Lancashire region. Congress, President, public utilities, the name says it all. Essential public utilities for every single member of the public. Things people need for a basic quality of life. Privatization, high prices, disconnections. People calling round from next door for a bucket of water, the elderly and sick dying of hypothermia, or unable to light the house after dark, that's what Sid, and all the others who bought shares in the various sell-offs have a share in. Closing pits, the dash for gas, that's what privatization results in, the quick buck, buddy can you spare a pound for the water meter, VAT on fuel, how many more will die? You lose your job, you're at home all day, you heat the house to stay warm, get cut off because you fall behind with the bill. You want to get connected, the meter is fixed, so it's stay warm, don't eat. That's Britain today. Radical change is needed. We have to end private monopolies. Democratize utilities, involving con consumers, trade unions and the government. Privatization has failed Britain. We need to place these utilities under the control of the public. Rationalization is the best way to ensure that nobody dies because they cannot afford to use the basic services. Nationalization of all the utilities at the earliest opportunity, that is the task of the next Labour government, a basic quality of life for all, that is the meaning of clause four, so tell Sid, no VAT on fuel. Congress, I move. President, congress, Denny , Southern region. I'm here to second this composite, number sixteen, as regards public ownership of utilities. I believe that nationalization has become a dirty word in this country over many a year. I think it's about time we actually put that word back into the dictionary and made it a good word to have. The government over the past year has mugged the people of this country by privatizing all the public utilities we have. They are now increasing all the charges across those utilities. They are about to re-mug yet again by breaking up British Gas and I'm sure they'll break up every other utility they can. They're after making money. They're not after looking after consumers or the workforce, this trade union should start considering how to go about re-nationalizing the public utility energy companies within this country. For number one, they could start considering doing away with the regulator, and having an elected body to do regulating over the utilities. Yes, it is gonna be a long-term project, yes, the money isn't there to actually just go out and re-nationalize them, but by regulation approved elected bodies also with trade union members on them elected bodies then I'm sure we can start looking after the public and not the financiers and the accountants. I second. Composite seventeen, Lancashire region to move, London region to second. President, congress, Dave , Lancashire region. I tried to write a speech last year and I made a right mess of it, so this year I'm gonna speak from the heart, because I might get a boo like the leader of the council here, I install water meters. Thank you. Erm, when I was a kid, I asked me dad what politics were about and he said, well Tories are for the rich and Labour's for the poor. The only thing the Tories can't tax is fresh air. Well, water meters proved that wrong, because what happens is, Billy is over there laughing at me, if you put a water meter in, to get that water back in the main what does it need? It needs to push all the air out of the water main. Where does that air go? Through the water meter. You weigh that all up, how much it's gonna cost over the years, you're paying for fresh air on water meters. Tories have done it again. On T V last week there was a programme, tuberculosis has come back into Britain, said it was the Asians bringing it back. It's not. People are frightened of using their taps, their baths, their toilets because of using water and paying for it. I pay through my wages, twenty P a week for something they call Water Aid. This sends money to the Third World. This money pays for villages and towns in Africa, Asia to have clean, portable water. They did an experiment, there was a, a tribe in Africa, I'm not being racist, they did, this tribe lived six mile from the nearest river. Every morning the full tribe got the pots, pans and went down to the river, washed, got the clean water, carried back and they lived well. Water Aid came in, don't do that, and installed a pipeline. They installed a six mile pipeline and put standpipes in the centre of the village. What happened? People started washing, using as a toilet clean water, they all got dysentery, malaria, diphtheria. They wiped out a village. Now that is what's gonna happen in this country. We have got good medical facilities, but as you just heard Samantha just saying, they're destroying that as well, the only people who wanted water meters, is when houses were on ratable value and they were paying two hundred thousand pound for a house at large rates and the water rates was the same house. So what they did, they said can we install a water meter, the water company said yes. There you go. Now they don't do that. Who just said they turn all the Leicester is it, they turn the water supplies off, Severn Trent sorry, Mr, Mr . They turn the water off, and then when they say do you want the water back on you can have a meter, but they don't tell you, you pay thirty five pound a quarter for the meter, and that's without a bit of water going through it. So right, you get the water meter in, you then start paying for the water, you get a bill between hundred and seventy to two hundred quid a year. And this is for a terraced houses that used pay thirty five to forty pound a year. Now as I say I install water meters because it's me job. I went into the water industry at seventeen years, and I've still not figured out how to do these new ones and make them go backwards I can do the other ones. But on a serious note, if we go along this line of the one thing,to me then, of getting what we need, we have gas, we have electric, the one thing we do need, nobody could survive without, is water, Congress I ask you to support this m this motion. President, er, Congress, David , London region, I speak in support of composite seventeen. Erm, just a word about the previous speaker, I'm also involved with water meters and if he wants to know how to, how to make them go backwards, if he can speak to me afterwards I don't have . , Domestic water metering should not be imposed because the likely effects will be increased and excessive charges. This will result in self-regulation of the use of water to the point where the health of the individual, the family and the public at large, will suffer. Availability of water and freedom of its use should not be governed by the size of one's wallet. I should also, erm, it should also be remembered that those with special health needs, may require to use more water. Why should they be financially penalized because they happen to be sick or disabled? The effect of metering will hit the poor and the disadvantaged. Perhaps the water companies, before embarking on a policy of compulsory metering, should put their own house in order first. I refer to the estimated twenty five percent of all water pumped that leaks away in broken mains. No amount of metering resulting in self-regulation by the sick and disabled And the poor and the poor, will solve the problem of loss from worn out mains. I therefore urge you to support composite seventeen, to protect the life and welfare of all of us. I second the composite. Conference I now call the C E C speaker to put the C E C position on the various different motions. John by the way has recently been elected President of our Energy and Utilities section. John , Midlands and East Coast region, speaking on behalf of the C E C. President, Congress, the C E C is asking you to support composite fifteen, support composite sixteen, with a qualification, and also to support composite seventeen. In addition, we are asking that motion three zero eight be referred and that you support motion three zero nine. The Tories have failed miserably to develop a cohe coherent energy policy for the needs of Britain. Beyond short-term market forces this has backfired b badly upon them. The decision to close thirty one of our pits, was er, erm, I was gonna say a major error, I should maybe rephrase that to a Heseltine error. The President of the D T I chose to ignore what I thought was an excellent report from the special committee, which was headed by Dick . A fiver a ton subsidy Tarzan recommended, and we heard yesterday where he was getting the fiver a ton from, the miners' pension fund. Utterly disgraceful. The fiver a ton was never enough anyway. I can give you an example. At our first Energy and Utility Sectional Conference, we had the Chief ex Executive of National Power as a guest speaker. After the conference in conversation with the section secretary and myself, he stated that the fiver subsidy was a joke. National Power were buying coal from Australia for half the price of the subsidized figure. British Coal was charging forty one pound a ton to National Power. With the fiver subsidy got it to thirty six pound a ton. They can ship it, National Power can ship it half way across the world and get it for eighteen pound a ton. Totally immoral. The increased use of gas to produce elect electricity will result in faster exhaustion of our resources while the subsequent closure of the mines will deny us access to hundreds of years of our richest and greatest energy reserves. Britain needs a balanced energy policy, which ensures that our varied and rich reserves are utilized in the most efficient way. The qualification with respect to comp sixteen is that congress needs to be aware that a future Labour government will have to decide between many competing priorities. The Tories are also attacking our Health Service, our children's education, and are failing to invest in the training and research necessary to produce substantial economic recovery. A Labour government, with the trade unions with them, using a progressive agenda, will clearly have to prioritize the demands that will be made upon it. With regard to comp seventeen. Compulsory water met metering will impact most heavily on the poor, the sick and the elderly. Suggestions of water shortages are not acceptable. The U K is the wettest country in Europe and water companies should be forced to cut leakages from corrode corroded pipelines which allow up to twenty five percent loss from the water supply before it reaches the consumer. Metered water costs ten percent per year more than non-metered water. Where a household seeks to cut back on the use of water, it will be at the risk of hygiene, fewer baths, toilets left unflushed, and less washing of clothes and dishes. Ask the people across the water on the Isle of Wight what they think of metered water, a resounding thumbs, thumbs down I can assure you of that. The C E C is asking that motion three O eight be referred. While well argued, the motion if agreed, would threatened thousands of G G M B members' jobs in power generation. We believe that power stations should be fitted with clean coal technology and that energy taxes should be based upon emissions rather than the use of a particular fuel. To summarize colleagues, the C E C ask you to support composite fifteen, sixteen with a qualification outlined, and seventeen. We ask for three O eight to be referred or opposed if it is not and that you support motion three O nine as it's in line with current policy. Thank you very much. Thanks John. Colleagues, I propose to take the vote, composite fifteen is being accepted, all those in favour? Against? That's carried. Reference is being sought on motion three O eight, does Scotland agree to reference? Agreed Conference accept that? Yeah Thanks very much indeed. Three O nine has been accepted, all those in favour? Against? That's carried. Composite motion sixteen, has been accepted, all those in favour? Against? That's carried. Composite seventeen, has been accepted, all those in favour? Against? That's carried. Thank you very much colleagues. Erm, could I, probably timely colleagues, could I advise you that you can replenish your water jugs at the entrance on my right. Colleagues it's now my pleasure to call upon the deputy General Secretary, Tom to move his section of the report and to address conference. Tom . Tom moving the deputy General Secretary's report. Colleagues, er since we meet in Portsmouth, let me begin by pinning my colours firmly to the mast and acknowledging that the one issue that will dominate my comments here this morning, alluding to anything else in the time that's allocated to me, in moving my report I think would simply not reflect my activities on your behalf over the last twelve months. Five years ago, you nominated me for the National Executive of the Labour Party. I was elected. Twelve months ago you nominated as Treasurer of the Labour Party. I was elected. Armed with your support I look forward to my first year in that position, to sorting the Party's problems. Maybe introducing a touch of that pragmatic responsible approach to financial control which has been a feature of this Union's development over the years. I look forward to tackling the Party membership system, I wanted to make some of the sound admin system and modern communication methods which allow this Union to send each new member a new membership card, were introduced to Walworth Road. Above all, I look forward as the new Labour Party Treasurer to bringing the party membership fee down from the dizzy heights of eighteen pounds to the level which we in the trades unions know ordinary people can afford. That's true Well, we've made some progress in some areas, but not as much as I would've liked, although I intend to keep working at it. We could have been a lot more down the road to genuinely modernizing the Labour Party, making it a bit more in tune with our own members and those many thousands who should be members of the Labour Party. But of course, the modernizers have got their eye on a bit of the Party operation in need of their attention. Another cause waiting for a champion. So for the past year, I've sat on the Labour Party Trade Union Review Group, a working party set up in the heat of an election defeat, to defuse a potentially damaging row about the strange phenomenon in the party of Labour. The desirability of the link between the Labour Party and the trade union. Well, we didn't do too well did we? Even twelve months ago, the issue was the political flavour of the month, of real concern and anxiety only to a half, a handful of parliamentarians and a bar full of lobby correspondents. Now, it's the biggest issue in the movement. It's overshadowing the proceedings of this conference and other union conferences. It's keeping the Labour leader awake at nights, the column inches, full of knocking copy, and letting the Tories off the hook. And we have to ask the question. Why? We owe it to our members, if nothing else, to find the answer. Why, oh why in this most fertile season imaginable for a growth spurt in Labour popularity, have the green shoots of a Labour recovery been choked back yet again by our stupidity. Let's have this clearly understood, this is a self-induced, home-grown disaster. I've travelled up and down the country in the past few months, I've spoken to union branches, I've spoken to regional councils, regional committees, party meetings, general committees, regional conferences, and they all said the same. Indeed, it was said loud and clear at our political rally last night here in Portsmouth. Union Labour links. We don't want to know. It's not important. Get on with the real issues. An own goal yes, but even so, the review group was set up to smooth away a little local difficulty. That indeed is what it should have done. A private internal affair needed resolving, and I went on that review group, I was prepared to do all that I could to resolve it. Armed with a policy which you'd clearly stated, and which incidentally, coincides completely with the official and existing party itself, about the involvement of affiliates in the selection and reselection of members of Parliament. I went on the review group to sort the matter out too many of us went onto it convinced that the matter was already sorted out. Their minds made up, their stance adopted, immovable objects, objects before discussion had even begun. O M O V is the answer, now what's the question. I've seen political naivety in my time, but never at such close quarters. Colleagues, there is an arrogance abroad in certain quarters of our movement that is a dangerous thing because it's it's arrogance and inflexibility which has led us to where we are today, and that's on the brink of the crisis. Colleagues every other item on our agenda this week is yet another good reason why we can't afford a crisis in the labour movement. Let's start getting things in perspective. Let's take the pan off the boil. The plain truth is that after one year, an abundance of vitriol, a little mud slinging and some very bad publicity, we're right back where we started. In some ways, we're much further back from the starting line. Nevertheless, it's time to call a halt before it's too late. Those who can't see a role for the trade unions and the Labour Party need to be given time to see the error of their ways. And of course they will. The closer you get to an election, a general election campaign, the clearer things'll become for them. The forward- facing electors without our campaign exp expertise, back-up and money will not dissolve any deeply held if only recently announced objections to union association, for we all know what's likely to happen at the party conference in October if the brakes are not applied now. There can only be one outcome, the trade unions will retain their involvement in the Labour Party, I've been saying this all along, as have others, during the course of the last year, the trouble is, nobody listens. Now, perhaps, people will be more inclined to do just that, and if they are, then what we may need is a trade union link review group mark two. A reconstituted group which, perhaps with some different faces, which can do what originally so graphically this group failed to do. That's reach a common understanding which reflects the realities of a relationship we enjoy at the present day so that we can all get on with the task of serving our members and forming a Labour government. I move my report. Thanks very much indeed Tom, and now I'll deal with various different sections of Tom's report, pages eighty two, eighty three, eighty four, eighty five, eighty six, eighty seven, eighty eight. Yes President, Congress, Peter Middle and East Coast. Tom eighty eight, bottom G M B Direct, it reads G M B Direct, it is now established as the best trade union journal. Published bi-monthly, becomes necessary reading in the labour movement . Direct seven was sitting with Gillian Sheppard on the, the front. She's the one that's making us out of work. I wrote to this lot up here, and questioned it, and all of a sudden the ball starts bouncing, somebody starts supporting Fulham. We're in the premier league here, this union. We're not in fourth division. We can do without anybody but this movement in that document, and it's about time somebody starts listening. Tom, if you're in charge of that, let's get these delegates on them front pages, we can do without the Tories. Eighty nine, ninety, and we now move from one O, sorry. Good morning Congress, er back to page eighty eight, President, sorry er, couldn't get your eye. Er, Tom it's regarding erm, Direct. by the way representing South Western region. It's regarding Direct. My colleague who was just up here was talking about Gillian Sheppard who's on the cover of Direct. Being a representative of a national race committee, I'm often dismayed at the ne the lack of black people demonstrated or portrayed in Direct. Recently on the cover of Direct, was a young black person who was er, a depiction of somebody unemployed in Britain today. Unfortunately, the photograph could have been er, mistaken as a stereotypical photograph of somebody from Los Angeles, or any other part of the world where there is problems in inner city area. Please, Tom when er placing photographs in Direct, please try to make them a little more appropriate. Thank you. Now turn to page one O four, one O five, one O six and one O seven, and one O eight. Tom could you respond to those points please. First to er, Peter's point about er Gillian Sheppard, on the er, on the er Direct, I must say to you, I got a bit of a surprise when I saw Gillian Sheppard in such brazen er fashion on er on Direct, but you know, you've quickly got answers in this organization, and somebody said ah well, it was meant to be an obituary to her and they were a bit perceptive in that er respect. But that's not the reason, of course. The reason was that we were touching three million unemployed at that particular point in time, and it was felt that the best way of making an impact was to highlight this in the way in which it was done. And whether it did anything else, I can tell you Peter, you're not the only one that's made reference to Gillian Sheppard being on the cover of our journal. I've been inundated with calls. I'm still not sure whether it was right or wrong, but it certainly got the reaction that was necessary that people appreciated that she was there, she was the Minister for Employment, and indeed she was causing a hell of a lot of problems for G M B members. On the other point that was raised in respect of er Direct. I think our delegate will appreciate that er, it is a difficult issue, we do try as much as we possibly can to project all aspects of our membership in a fair fashion, and we go out of our way er, to be fair in respect of er certain er areas. I would simply conclude that while we're always open to any sort of criticism, we're always open to any kind of recommendation that might be made, erm to us in respect of er Direct. Direct, itself you know, it did win the T U C award. It wasn't anybody else's awar it was a T U C award and you can imagine the very issue that has been raised here today are the very aspects that are critically analyzed by the T U C in determined award, but I will take on board the points that have been mentioned. Thank you President. Thanks very much Tom. Right, colleagues, could I now advise Congress as to how we're gonna proceed from here. Er, first of all, we're gonna have a debate which I would term as politics, which will take in motion three nine seven, the Labour Party, motion three nine eight, Sponsored Members of Parliament, and then I go, gonna ask the deputy General Secretary, Tom to respond to that particular debate, then Party and Union links, there'll be the C E C statement. Labour Party and trade union links to be moved by the General Secretary and to be seconded by Pru from the Central Executive Council. I then take composite motion twenty nine, Labour Party trade union links and then motion three nine six, G M B Parliamentary panel. We'll then, I'll then invite a speaker from each region on the C E C statement and following on from that we'll then take the vote on the statement and comp twenty nine and motion three nine six. We'll then move on to motion three nine four, representation at Labour and T U C conferences, and motion three nine nine, Labour local authorities. Motion four O two, Labour Party subscription contributions, and then motion four O three, Labour Party member awards. I will ask Robert Thompson member of the C E C to respond and put the C E C's position, and we'll take the vote on those particular motions. Is that clear colleagues? Thanks very much, I now call motion three nine seven, the Labour Party, to be moved by the Lancashire region. And again colleagues, it would assist, er, if movers and seconders and supporting speakers and speakers who're speaking on behalf of the regions, if they could come down to the front. David. Thank you. David one four sorry, one four eight Rochdale, Lancashire region. Coming down here this week, I came a week early actually, I, I used a week's holiday as well, and er my lady friend says I think we'll buy a house in Goodwood. I said no, she said you won't leave the union will you, I said no, she said alright we'll buy one at Haydock, still in the Lancashire region and the reason why the union is my second love, obviously my first love is me family, is what it's done for me, but I also think what I've done for those people who represent me and yourselves in Parliament. Now when those people in Parliament are absent, by their silence, they may be there, you don't always see 'em, you then get a bit annoyed, but I tell you, you get bloody annoyed when they walk past you, which happened to me and to the regional delegates at Lancashire North West Labour Party, I won't name who they are, but they didn't even acknowledge us. This president behind me led a delegation of er fourteen of us, one of 'em got a gold badge yesterday, Eric , half of 'em sat down there, and we went canvassing in Rochdale, last election, just before ninth of April, that disaster we had. We didn't canvass in a nice little area, we canvassed on the side of the bloody moors. It was blowing a gale, am I right Dick? And he's there shouting right what do they vote, right okay, and we heard this row, and I look round, it's Eric , got the gold badge yesterday, and he's dragging somebody out their house you voted Tory, you voted Tory . So we all sort of gathered round, was it Eric or Ernie, I think it was Eric, so we all gathered round, that was the, the zeal that we had, to make sure that we got a parliamentary candidate sponsored by the G M B, in Rochdale. That was down to us, they voted Liz , Liberal. But the energy was still there, we know full well, that there's other MPs there, I think it's thirty seven we've got and we, the only one that I know well is Gerald Kaufman. You can get hold of Gerald Kaufman just like that. Great, he's not even in my constituency. Mine's a teacher, I think, Jim . Talking to John Prescott this morning, I went to his speech last night, and John Prescott's never altered. Three years ago in Blackpool North West Labour Party, he said I stand up he said and people say I lose me temper. Now, I'll never believe that of John Prescott. but I saw him on the television last week, breakfast T V, not last week, week before, just before I got into work, and this woman on the television asking this stupid question, she said why don't you put any opposition up in Parliament, and he hit the roof, but what the television did, they didn't switch off when he played bloody hell with 'em, excuse my French er President, but this is how it went, he couldn't give a damn about you bloody lot, he kept the television on, it just showed his frustration. Now to me, and John Prescott's not even in our union, shame, that man should be is doing what every other G M B member of Parliament should be doing. Now we see, you go into work, or as one delegate said before, you don't go to work because the places are boarded up, we've got management in North West Water, arrogant, it's unbelievable. Directors, they've signed one off sick, from British, er Vicker's shipyard, and give him sixty thousand pound a year directorship. How can you be retired sick and get one of them? But the arrogance of the people and yet when we're going to work, we've got to try and combat these people, and what help have you got? You've got your shop stewards, your activists, you, in my region, we've got some great officers, the one that I have, Pat is great to work with, but in the last two years, I've had to get hold of Pat more and more,myself. But do we get hold of M Ps? Not a bloody sign of them. And I'll tell you summat, I'm getting sick and tired of it. I have one pair of shoes at a time, and I wear them out pretty quick because I'm doing all the canvassing for our lot. They don't do it. How many members have they recruited to the G M B? Go on, name me one. Not one. How many members have they recruited to the Labour Party, there won't be so bloody many. But I'll tell you something, we haven't got to get sick, we've got to get people who support us. People who put our message across, I'm gonna finish before red light, here, people who're gonna do the job for us in Parliament, showing the G M B is the number one union, and we've got to make sure it's right. Support this motion, thank you Congress. John , Lancashire region, supporting motion three nine seven. Congress, time and time again, the majority of our sponsored MPs appear unable to sustain any sort of attack on this government's policies. In fact, when they raise an issue, it's either for a, a personal ego trip, or they're just paying lip service. I'm of the opinion that the reason they remain in opposition is that many of them have very little in common with the very people that they're supposed to represent. How do we ensure issues that directly affect the G M B members and there's millions about, now I say nowadays, are highlighted in their proper manner. We support these MPs time and time again, which we should be doing, but in return, we certainly want their support. Support the motion. Thank you. Thank you John, motion three nine eight sponsored members of Parliament. Midland region to move. Yes Well, thanks very much, I hadn't realized it had gone, I don't know to be honest, I bet it's hiding behind there. We'll check it out Colleagues, President, Congress, Alan , Midlands and East Coast region. This co motion calls for a simple thing. It calls for this union's sponsored MPs not to pair with Tory M Ps. Yesterday, we had the debate on, on the abolition of Wage Councils. Indeed, this union had a campaign of sending postcards out to MPs asking them not to vote for the abolition of Wage Councils. Yet, when the vote was taken, it showed a considerable number of Labour MPs had not voted. That vote condemned over a million workers to poverty pay. Yesterday, in your address to Congress, President, you said that Labour MPs were paid to oppose this government and they, and that they should be accountable. And John mentioned the sleazy way that this Tory government goes about things. Every time a Labour MP pairs with a Tory, leaving that Tory MP free to go about his other business commitments, most of them highly paid, that MP abstained from taking part in opposing this government's policies. The C E C in opposing this motion, are also guilty of abstaining, of abstaining their responsibility to its low, to its lowest paid members, members it has pledged to fight for. I move. President, Congress, Les , Midlands and East Coast region, seconding motion three nine eight. Peer in, when I saw this motion, I took immediate interest. I didn't realize it happened. We've all seen debates on T V, er, only an handful of MPs are present. Where are all the rest. Paired off. Such, such issues as Maastricht, VAT on fuel to name but two, when first debated, only a hand handful of MPs are present. Can this do the movement any good? No. I attended a public sector lobby at Westminster. This organized by the T U C, Mary was also there. We listened to Jack Straw among others. What an experience, talk about Tory wets. I must give credit to one speaker though, an MP from Burnley. He really livened up the debate. Peter he's incidentally a G M B member. Burnley can be proud of him. After the lobby, I managed to speak to Jack Straw. Asked his opinion on pairing. His answer, I believe pairing is necessary. Short and not so sweet. I then spoke to Geoff , MP for Ashfield C L P, and until recently also an M E P, strongly in favour of pairing. His answer was he could not manage his commitments without pairing. Alan my own MP was next. He explained the Party line, in favour. He then explained his own position, which was quite different. Strongly against, but he could see the need for some front bench MPs to pair. New MPs tend not to pair and will attend most sittings, he said. Usually it is when, it is the old guard when apathy sets in. We in the trade union movement know about apathy. Ex-officio N E C Dennis Skinner was next. I asked Dennis his view and I was taken aback. He agreed pairing was a good idea. Could I have caught him at a bad moment, could he have mellowed, I couldn't believe it. Dennis Skinner saying pairing was a good idea. He then explained. In seventy one when I first came to Westminster, I was introduced to pairing. At my first important debate, I paired up with five of the Tory buggers and then I turned up. Pairing allows Tory MPs to sit on their boards of directors, manipulate your pension funds, to rally support for their party, and enhance their salaries. We should not be supporting this practice. Congress I second. Colleagues, the C E C are recommending accepting with a qualification, three nine seven and are seeking withdrawal of three nine eight. I call Tom to respond. Tom. Thanks er, President, the C E C are accepting erm motion three nine seven with a, a qualification and erm oppose three nine eight. Now the movers of the motion from Lancashire quite rightly identified that the major issues that should be concerning Labour MPs and particularly sponsored MPs are issues like unemployment, the National Health Service, and local services. All of these are key political issues. Er, we call on Labour Mem Members of Parliament to give their support in each of these areas mentioned, and we do constantly have a dialogue and provide what is the union line in terms of erm these particular er issues. But I wouldn't wish anybody er to get the idea that we as a union wish to take away what really is the parliamentary privilege that members of parliament have got to have to look after their own constituencies in addition to being sponsored members of parliament. Now I'd hate to think that anybody got the impression that we actually gave them instructions. We're simply not able to do that. There might be occasions when we feel that we'd like MPs to take a particular line, in fact there are occasions when I'd like to see MPs take a particular line, but we can only ask them, we cannot in fact insist that they do take a particular line. It's a little bit unfair I think as well to generalize, on sponsored members of parliament because, you know as well as I do, on some of the issues that have been very very important to us, not the sort erm, er the sexy issues that head, hit the headlines, but issues that mean a lot to our members, our sponsored members generally do work very, very hard. But I can think areas er like on Europe, I don't there's been anybody who's been in terms of projecting the issue erm, er better than George Robertson has dode done in terms of the European er issue. On the er three nine eight, erm, the C E C are erm asking for withdrawal of these, this motion, they asked initially for withdrawal. That wasn't the case for very much the same reasons of course. We expect sponsored MPs to be present at important votes, and particularly on these occasions when our members are likely to be infect affected. The motion goes on to say that sponsored MPs should not pair with erm Conservatives. Now, I've heard what the move move movers have had to say, and you did, I don't need to tell conference that most of the business of running the country is actually done outside of the chamber itself, it's done in the various committees I mean, Dennis Skinner was mentioned there. Now Dennis will not sit on any of the committees, well we simply could not get our view and the representation that we want if we did not have erm membership of er particular er committees. So the pairing system does allow that sort of work to go on. In addition to that, John Prescott was mentioned, and John could not attend the meetings that he does around the country if he did not have the facility to be able to be away from Parliament during times when erm, there are votes that need to be taken. So I would simply suggest that, erm, on the two motions, er President, as I said at the outset, that we would support three nine seven, and in view of the fact that three nine eight is not withdrawn, the C E C would ask you to oppose three nine eight. Thanks. Thanks very much Tom. propose to take the vote, colleagues, er as Tom has said the C E C are Dave , Lancashire region, on three nine seven, Chair, when I got elected to the Labour Council in Rochdale, I took a whip that I had, did what the policy was of the Rochdale D L P. Surely, if a Member of Parliament takes a G M B sponsorship they should take the whip that we give and follow our rules and not go against us by going by constituent. Either go for the constituent, or be sponsored by G M B David, David, it's not a point of order that. I mean you're exercising your right of reply, but for what particular purpose, I don't know because the C E C are accepting the motion. Ah, but with referral, with a qualification, Mr President. But, nevertheless, it's being accepted. Colleagues, I propose to take the vote on three nine seven. The C E C are accepting it, all those in favour? Against That's carried. Is the Midland region prepared to withdraw three nine eight? No Okay, propose to take the vote. The C E C are therefore opposing three nine eight. All those in favour of the motion? Against? That's lost. Colleagues, Party, Trade Union Links, the C E C statement, Labour Party trade union links to be moved by the General Secretary, John . Colleagues, John , General Secretary, speaking on behalf of the C E C and beginning with a rather unusual announcement. Er, our press office tell me that we have just had a call from ten Downing Street, who want a copy of this speech. This is not a joke this is not a joke, absolutely true. And I hope that John Major and central office of the Conservative Party study it carefully since it is about party democracy and the Conservative party have a few lessons to learn in that direction. But colleagues, I, I, I turn to the regrettable series of events that Tom has er already described because a virulent form of spring fever seems to have infected the Labour Party. Three million unemployed, homelessness and poverty on a scale not known for a generation. Health service falling apart at the seams, and this the moment when, instead of attacking this awful government, a number of Labour politicians have decided to attack us, the trade unions who founded the party, and loyally supported the party through thick and thin. And recently there's been quite a lot of thin. I don't know what the three million unemployed think of that sense of priorities, but I think it's appalling. Apparently some Labour politicians think we're an electoral liability. We heard that claim, I would call it a slur, at the last election. So whatever our reservations at the behest of the party, trade unionists kept in the background. We organized, we supported, we gave a great deal of work behind the candidates of the party as Dave has already mentioned, but we kept off the television, we kept off the radio, we kept out of the newspapers. The Scarlet Pimpernel would have been proud of us. There was of course a massive mistake in that general election campaign, but it wasn't of the trade union making. Quite the reverse. In spite of trade union protests, not just by representatives of this union, but by representatives of a number of unions, all within my hearing, the public heard little about our vote winning policies for full employment, or a minimum wage, or decent rights at work, the Party said next to nothing in high profile terms, about child care or maternity rights or the exploitation of part time workers. That was our agenda, it wasn't the Party publicity agenda. Instead, the Party prof professionals decided that the campaign should be fought on the basis of what they called themes. What this meant in practice was that we overplayed the Health Service, we underplayed almost everything else, and then got into an awful muddle over proportional representation. So were the trade unions to blame? Not on your life. I visited thirty eight constituencies during that campaign and I'm convinced of one thing. If we'd fought that election on the trade union agenda, we would have won a lot more votes than the campaign issues chosen by the professionals. Hear, hear, that's true, yeah. Some critics of the trades unions have pretended that we oppose the modernization of the Party constitution. That charge is nonsense. Remember this booklet, some of the longer attending members of the G M B will do, we debated it in the conference of the old G M B five years ago. A radical programme for the Labour Party reform of the future. Far more radical than anything that's been discussed in the last few months. In that same year, on behalf of the union, I went to the rostrum at the Labour Party Conference, to move a resolution calling for the end of the block vote. I actually used the phrase this motion is the death- knell of the block vote, and the beginning of individual voting of trade union members within the part Party. I have to say that if some of those born again modernizers had supported us then, we could have settled these issues long ago, and got on with the business of winning elections, which I thought was what party politics was about. But the core of this disagreement is about what we really mean by democracy. There are two groups of members in the Labour Party, something over two hundred thousand individual members, who pay an individual subscription, and the four million trade unionists, who pay through the political levy. Two groups, not one. And one group is an awful lot bigger than the other group. Some Labour politicians want the important decisions in the Party, selecting Labour candidates, or electing the leader, to be made only by the two hundred thousand individual members, without any voice for the four million trade union levy payers at all. They call that one member one vote. I repeat it to you with a sense of irony. Our executive has a different view of democracy. We believe that everyone who contributes, should have the right to participate in Labour Party democracy, and that means colleagues, that means not just the two hundred thousand individual members, but also the four million trade union levy payers, who back the Party through those payments, strengthen Labour's organization, and give invaluable support at election time. We balloted our levy paying members last year in the election for the Party leader, you remember it well, over a hundred and forty thousand G M B members took part in that secret ballot. With constituency support, and the votes of other trade unionists, John Smith was elected Party leader by a larger number of contributing members than ever had the chance to vote for John Major or Paddy Ashdown. That's the contrast, and that should be a matter of pride. I wish Labour politicians would spend less time searching for points of disagreement in the Labour Party constitution, and more time pointing to the total absence of democracy in the Tory Party where there is no participation, no ballots, and they don't even have the confidence to tell Party members where the money comes from. Just remember the G M B's reform programme. Ballots of trade union levy payers. A new system of policy making with wide ranging consultation. A total reform of the Party conference. That's our reform programme. If you want to label people modernizers, we got there in this union first. But we are not in favour of any policy that squeezes trade unionists out of the Party or of any policy that denies trade unionists a voice in Labour Party democracy. Perhaps both Party leaders will be interested in that bit. I end, I end colleagues, with a comradely warning. Financially, and organizationally, the Labour Party is in something of a mess. With a small individual membership, the Party badly needs the trade unions to provide that broad and representative support across classes and across occupations. Unless they're very very careful the supporters of one member, one vote so called will create a narrow and exclusive Party, limited to those lucky people who can stump up an eighteen pounds membership fee without thinking too hard, and in the Britain of nineteen ninety three there aren't quite as many of those as perhaps we would like to see. Our reports on the options that we support offer a different model for the party. Wider, larger, Well now James, what can we do for you ? Oh Not so bad. Not so bad. I feel a bit sad. I'm my daughter's taken me hol me away for a holiday. Erm Mhm. a holiday down in . And Mhm. my line's not due till the twenty sixth of July. That's alright. Twenty six of July it's due Doctor . Well no problem. So I'll leave it with my other daughter. She can't post it No no no. Se send it in John. Send it in? Aye just send it Twenty sixth of July it's due. Aye. You know that's a year off now you know. Yeah. Due on twenty six Twenty six of July, yes. July ninety three. Ah no no terrible worry about that Jim. No? No no no no no . Sometime you know they they Och aye it's not. I just send it in, there'll be no problem then. No problem, no no. The thirteenth of the seventh, ninety three. There we are. Right. You just send that, just send that in to But could you give me some Er can you give me some Zantac Doctor? Some Zantac? Give me a bottle because I during the holidays . Well you shouldn't you shouldn't need of that stuff down there. . Aye well that's Well I don't take you know Yeah. Just a wee break. Actually . She says . Well it's nice it's a nice part of the world. Yes it i somewhere it's nice Doctor, it is. But er Torquay's A bit hilly Aye Too hilly for me Not for us, not for us. No. No. Not for you. No. It's er and it's like it's not a nice place anyway. I think Paigns I've a feeling Paignton's far nicer. Paignton's far nicer. And Yes yes I heard that Doctor. Torquay used to used to be a lovely place. Everything was kept absolutely perfect. Aha. Palm trees and the Yes. the the railings were always painted and all the houses were beautifully kept and And now mm. Was it Has it? Aye. It's a shame. You know, I was there in nineteen nineteen fifty. Were you? And I I mean it was absolutely gorgeous. Everything, the railings you know, when they put when they painted the railings, the burned the old paint off, the new paint on . Ah yes yes yes yes yes. Now, old paint just straight on top Aye. It just it looks terrible. I may go through for a day you know. Aye Och. . It's not it's not worth it. It's not worth that Ah well. even. Ah well. can go through. Aye they can let them let them go let them go . There's a good ice cream shop. Oh I like ice cream. Oh I like ice cream. I'm I'm very partial to ice cream. Yes I I must say that. I like ice cream. Well thank you very much Doctor. Eh, well there's a good ice cream shop there. Away you go then. Away you go them Jimmy. And I'll . Aye I'll . Okay? Thank you then. Look after yourself. Right Jim. Bye bye . Cheerio now. Hello Matthew. Hello. How was your grandma? Erm she's getting better. Mm? She's getting better. Did you go to see the river yesterday? No. Oh. We did, didn't we? It was okay. Yes. And it had gone down hadn't it? Yes. It had gone down a lot though. Has anyone listened to erm what was it, Radio Newcastle? Yes. It's on. The 's on. You've listened to it? No. I've not listened to it. Oh. We see Mrs as we came out of school. It was at the school yesterday, rather. And er she said that one of them was drying out nicely. What's happened to my voice this morning? Can I turn it down a little bit please James? James? What? Can I turn it down a little bit please? Why? What about yesterday? With all the walking we did. Oh! The walking? with our two feet. Aren't you used to walking that far? No. We walked further than that when we went to Crackside. Aye. You walk a long way when you go to, across Crackside. Would you like to go to Crackside Richard? He is. Tired I think, just nodding his head isn't he? Aha. What are you doing? Making a fortune teller. Making what? Fortune tellers. Fortune tellers. A fortune teller. Oh I love you. That's for one. It's for what? One, four One. eight. Will you a choose a number? Two. I got . It's that one with the What do you What is this? A thingummybob! A thingummybob ! Explain it. I'm doing it that way. Erm, there, you open up and turn it upside down. It's got a face there and he's got ears up there and he's got erm the ears on the other head of his Oh! That's clever. Have you seen it Amy? Look! Ha. You can have it that way up or That way. that way up. Brilliant! There you are. I'm not really sure about side heads yet. Oh. I see. And what are you doing? Oh! You're making one as well. Making the same as Richard. Jim. What? How many leaflets did you say you still had to deliver? All this side Hillside and Tayside,and Catherine's Square. Well And possibly Village. have you got the leaflets? That's all the leaflets I have left. Do a little bit more. Are, are you going to ring Martin and see if you can get some if he's got any more? Well I might. I just thought, if it was any good if I took Bryony to the hairdresser with me and you took Richard and James Take me. if you could get hold of any before I went out, I need to be out at quarter to ten. Is that any good? Or not? You might need this. I can't take them with me either. Oh. I'll deliver when you for the half an hour when you come back. Okay. Right . I just thought it would have saved time. Still a lot of roads blocked by snow according to the television news. Snow? Yes. We didn't have snow at home. Didn't you see the I saw it. cars ye when Doro didn't you have snow at Lonsdeen? Dorothy said her lawn was covered with snow when she arrived yesterday morning. And it was thick on the front of our car. Well we didn't have any on our car. And you're only a hundred yards from her. Well we had some on the garden but there's no Oh it was th and we saw a well you saw some, who was it? Erm Richard you were trying to break up a big lump of snow yesterday weren't you? Yeah. Where was that? On the road. On the road. Up in town. Yeah. Yes. Er, that could have fallen off a car cos it was a big piece and there wasn't anywhe anywhere else. Mm. Where else did it say the roads are blocked Jim? The road from to Ashington is closed because of flooding. No I meant And er . The er road from Alston over to is blocked with snow and it's passable from Alston over to Wear there only with four wheel drive vehicles. I did mention cars are barred anywhere else. Cos that's where all, where the roads to Alston are closed. Aye. What are you reading Richard? That. I can't see it. What does it Soccer Coaching. Who? Soccer Coaching. Mm! Do you want to be a footballer? Yes. I think your brother is tired this morning Amy, all we're getting from him is nodding. Was he in a bad temper when he got up again? Yes he was screaming. Screaming? Didn't wanna get up. Oh dear. Oh dear. Pick a colour Jim. I dunno. Er Yeah? You have to you have to write in, in proper numbers. I don't know what to do for the numbers. In that just there. You go, one, two, three, four. One, two, three, four. Where does it come out? What do you do? This'll do for the numbers. Have you finished it? You put one two Not yet. three five Sorry. six seven, eight. You're an expert on these are these aren't you Rebecca? Yep. And I Whoops! You've dropped your pencil I thought you had to make them pen. quite a while ago. And you forgotten . No! You've forgotten. No I didn't. Oh yeah! Ner ner ner! Then I wouldn't start making them. I, I made them I started making them quite a while ago. So have I. Rebecca. What? Rebecca wants red Matthew can try it. I can Rebecca wants, Rebecca wants Red. red. Erm you've got a hairy chest. Who's got a hairy chest ? I love your hairy chest. Oh. Matthew used to love that one. No I don't. He still does . You're being horrible! Saying I've got a hairy chest. Oh oh! Where are you up to? Oh you're still filling in the Aha. What are you making? Is that a hat or a boat? What A boat. It's a u Well unless he's a really The what? small head, it's a The crayons? Yes please. And there you are. I'm gonna try and make it waterproof. Waterproof? Oh! Of course, with wax crayon. You'd have Ann. to do every single tiny bit. The triplets have been coming in here. I know, we've got, we've got hardly any crayons left, I think someone's eating them! Well I'm not eating them! Me neither Ann. I don't eat them! Neither have I! Neither have I! Now are you sure Richard? You do strange things! Are you sure you haven't eaten the crayons ? No. I don't know where they're disappearing to. What shall I do ? What shall I do for seven? What have you got so far? I've got kiss me quick, I love your hairy chest, I love your bi but I love your big ears, I love you Give us a kissy, kissy! I hate you Give us a kissy, kissy! Actually now I've got those three. Erm And eight? Eight? I don't know. Mm? We can clear up What shall I do for eight? I've put What do you usually put on? Er, I dunno. Well do you want something nice or something horrible? You're a princess. Do you want something complimentary or something insulting ? You're a princess. Ooh! Ooh! Ooh! Who wants to be a princess? Don't know. You're a queen. Or a queen. Richard do you want to be a princess? Well There you are, we've got a smile out of him. He must be coming round. Like you said you get people who are not morning people. That's right. Well if I could choose I would go to bed at about two o'clock in the morning and get up at about ten o'clock in the morning. That would suit me fine. Eight hours sleep? Er er well, I would read for an hour before I went to sleep. Seven hours sleep? Yes. Well last night I went to bed at about I went to bed early last night, I was in bed at half past eleven and I read Early? That's early? That's early for me. And I read for about an hour. Do you usually go to bed at midnight? Midnight, one o'clock depends what I'm doing. Oh. I better get my contact lenses in hadn't I? Mm mm. Oh! Good heavens! It's twenty to already. I haven't even got my face on. And my lenses in. Ooh! Urgh! Where are they? Your hairy legs are lovely! Whose hairy legs are lovely? I dunno. Tt! Oh! There's a bit of fluff or something on there. Even just now I got . Has anyone seen the river this morning? No. But probably gone down. Oh it was down a tremendous amount Do you want ? yesterday afternoon wasn't it Rebecca? Yeah. Oh! You were there weren't you ? Right from the what was it? The Aha. ninth step it was the night before. Right down to the second from the bottom. Oh! Don't say I'm going to have bother with my lenses this morning. Red, green, yellow or blue? Yellow. Mm. Pick a number? This one feels funny. Is anyone here later tonight? No. Rebecca, are you? Matthew are you here after school today? Yes I am, but I'm not late. You're not late. What day is it? Frid oh it's Yeah. Friday that's everyone's here. I keep thinking it's were off school yesterday. Yeah. Martin's not coming after school today, his granny Jean's going to meet him because his mum has to go to Scotland with her work so Trevor has to push the triplets home in the buggy. Cos Jim'll be at work, he won't be able to give them a lift in the car. And granny Jean is going to take Martin home in the bus. And Dorothy's bringing granny Iris back down from Scotland with her. I think she's probably going to stay overnight. I'm not, I'm just . Dee dee dee, dee dee . Red. two four. Eight. You're a ba bug. Maybe not. Amy said I was a bug! Amy said you were a what? A bug. A bug? Well come to think of it, Rebecca! I do see the similarity. It was off this. Mm? It was off the fortune teller. Oh.. You don't really look like a bug. She doesn't really think you lo you're a bug then? Ooh! Are these for you? Oh yes. You've got a hairy chest. Hairy chest! Oh. It's got Who had the hairy chest? Me! Matthew. Oh yes. Erm Oh yes! Oh no! Well you've got a cough Amy. How long have you had that? You weren't coughing yesterday. I was. Were you? I didn't hear you. Right. Where am I looking at? Inside? What? In there. Eight. He saying eight cos that's his birthday. Is it ? Oh! Matthew! Stop hitting! Which colour Ann? I'll have eight again. What colour? Erm, I'll have red Green. What do I do now? Choose an number? Choose a number? Two. Six. Pick a number. Er Four. five. Two. I love you. Oh! Ooh! That's nice to know Amy. I love Jim I hate you. Only twenty minutes to go then Ann. Oh! Rebecca! I love Jim. I got the opposite. Love Jim and hate me. Right, I've got to go upstairs and put my face on, very quickly. Don't make a mess of it. I'll have to do it quickly. Erm Check that, Rebecca's hand. Ten. where was that, I was going to take Ann. that upstairs? That, and that. Okay. Right. Right, I'll Ann. I haven't got time to do it again Ann. pet, I've got to get ready. One! Will you ti put the er papers and things that you've finished with bits of paper in the bin please. What number? And Where's my thingybob? You've probably picked tidy up the rest of the things. Jim, there's a letter here addressed to Mrs S do you think it must be Shirley? It says inside your Sealink travellers cheques. Why would Shirley use our address do you think? Unless they've sent for two lots and used used this address for one. Right . Er well I'll just put it up there. I better go. Where are we? Right, see you shortly. Bye. Have you all got your lunch boxes. Me, me. Have you got everything Richard? Right. Okay, let's go. I have. Now you're ! Ooh! Should have Ah! Ah! brought my umbrella I think. Look at the sky. Don't! Come along. Don't fiddle along in the middle No! No! of the ro mind the puddle! Oh! Ah! Ah! You'll have soaking wet socks in school. I didn't notice it. Ann. What love? What's that thing? I'll let you see this. Oh. Can you see this? Aha. Come on Twinkle. You're losing your socks Rebecca. Rebecca, you're losing your socks. If you trip up with two hands in your pockets Amy, you'll have nothing to stop you falling on your nose. What? Amy. Where is she? It'd be funny if she did fall on her nose. She'll have a flat nose! A flat nose? Like Miss if you don't do hard work you'll get a flat face! Yeah I know. No, I mean She won't have a flat face, she'll have a flat nose. I mean, not likely. How do you get a flat face if you don't do hard work? I don't know. And she's just joking with us to get us working . Oh I see. I see. Er, stop here, we'll we'll cross here look. I wonder why she likes me? Right. Line up to cross the road. Aha! After school can we see the river again? Urgh! Urgh! Yes. Right, cross now. And see if the water has passed that line. Pardon? Can't wait to see if the water has passed . Oh it those huge puddles along the path sometimes take ages to clear away. The weather man said dry today, look at it. Doesn't look as if it's going to be dry to me. Look! It's a little I know. island. So I need to stay a bit later. After we've been to the river tonight? That's what I've just asked! Yes. Yes. You can have a look at the river toni it's right He asked it's right down Matthew. He hasn't seen the river on a Saturday. I don't think it's time to go across now. Cos it's er nearly nine o'clock. That's not Dorothy's car, it no, it isn't. Mm? Who ran in front of a car? The new Who? The new girl. The new girl in your class? Oh! Who's the new girl in your class? Dunno. Just stop here a minute. Look, there's a car reversing. Wait a minute till this car Why? gets out onto the road. Is it okay? Bye Ann. See you tomorrow. Wait a minute Bye. Rebecca you can't cross yet. Is anyone going to decide which way the cars are going here ! She's in there, and then this one. Right. I can go, oh! Our car conked out on the way to school. Did it? Where? At in we'd just turned round the corner and it conked out. Oh! But we got it started again. Right, you can cross now. Bye Bye! Amy! Bye! Bye Matthew. Bye Bye! Rebecca. I'll come this way. I think they're just going in. Oh! Hello. Morning. Bye Richard ! Morning Cathy. Morning Morning. Brenda. Oh ! Hello. Hello! It's not a nice morning is it? It isn't. Hello everyone! I was listening to the radio! Were you? What did you hear? Er, just songs. Do you know Pardon? what Songs? Wait a minute. Hold on! Hold on! You know what I hear on on the radio There are no cars coming. Aha. cos she's in Scotland now. That's right. Well And I got 's coming. And I got Have you? a badge with it. Oh! Yes. Well I'll see you tonight because I know granny No! I'm not going! No, I know granny Jean's collecting you but granny I'm not coming later . Jean usually comes and stands beside me anyway. Oh yes. See you later pet. Give me a kiss. Go straight in cos they've just gone in. Bye-bye. Have a nice day dear. Hello. Hello. Ooh! Quickly! Bye Martin ! Hello. Oh hello. Off to see Jim? I am. Yes. Hello. Ooh! What you doing? Er oh right. There we are. A piece of paper. And how are all of you this morning? What? Is Bryony any better? Oh! Yes. There we are. They're all home. Oh! There isn't much room. Not too bad at all. They all slept for twelve, nearly twelve hours Saturday Wow! night. Yes. So all be Aren't you good? Thank you. I, I've got up too early. You got up too early? No you didn't, you got up just right. No! You were very, very good mummy says. Ah, we were pleased daddy and I. I bet you were. Well we've got up this morning we've, and I said to Trevor have the kids been up in the night? Cos I thought have I slept through everything and er left him with the lot? But, no. Are they still alri They got to bed at ten to seven, they were shattered. er well you had a busy day yesterday didn't you? This morning Mm. I'm going to go to the hairdressers so Jim's going to look after you. I won't be away very long. Say, that's fine. That's fine. Yes. Where's Jim go and say? I'm going to the hairdressers, cos I usually go today don't I? No! But you're here today instead. So instead of going this afternoon I'm going this morning while Jim's at home before he goes to work. Oh I'm going to look after the house. You're going, you're No, that's going to look after Jim, how about that? Jim needs a lot of looking after. Right. Oh! Get this seat belt off this car seat off my ni looking at him since half past nine and Oh! Now watch the puddles! No! Ah! Straight through the puddles in Oh dear! James! In this house! One Oh ho your two if I get to three I'm going to be cross! Come along Richard. Your brother's being naughty, he's run away up the street look! Where's Bryony? Oh sta Bryony stay there, I'll lift you over the puddle. Don't come through it. Jump over the puddle. Right Richard. Wait a minute. Right. In this house this time No, you're not going to run away! so you can and see Jim. Come and see Jim. your bottom. Yes! In you go. You go to mummy while I close the other car door look. And I'll er Go! In! Why don't you In you go. get in. Do you want to get a smack bottom? In you go. Go and find Jim can you? Just stop running away! I'll, I'm not chasing after him . Cathy Dorothy James You've decided to come back have you Ja er we Got you! Aargh! You thought you were going to escape! Didn't you? I'm Get in that house! I'll fall. Wipe your feet. Clever boy. Who is that? Wipe your feet. Feet wiped. Come on. Wipe your feet. Ah! Er, feet wiped please. Clever boy. Show me how you do it. Com oh! Very, very good. Oh! Very good indeed. There we are. In you go, find Jim. Go and say good morning to Jim. Have you said good morning Jim? Where, where's this letter? Go and say hello. Where's what letter? I'm doing a picture. You're doing a picture are you? There. You're at work And I've erm a letter to draw. you're at work already. Er, you're very nicely, you're very And I have a letter to draw. nicely. You're doing it very nicely. She's drawing a picture mummy, very nicely. Right. Well the thing What are you doing Richard? the thing I'm gonna concentrate on with you now is sto to stop you running away. Mine! It's mine! So, that's what you're going to be getting That's mine! smacked bottoms for now. That's mine! Not much else, just running away. It's what, Bryony? It's It's what? A I've drawed a letter. That's that . It's that one. That's that one. Yes. What are you drawing? What are you doing? I'm doing a picture. Yes, but what a what Mummy, I'm drawing a are you drawing a picture of? Mm. A picture. I, I'm drawing, we've drawn a circle. You've drawn a circle. Mm. We, we're drawing that. I'm drawing a picture. I've You're drawing a circle as well. What colour is this circle? Erm, wait till I've done, I haven't drawn it. I've done a orange circle. You've drawn a Yes, that's right. That's Yeah. orange. That's an orange circle. Could you give these to Trevor to go on the buggy tonight please? Oh yes. Cos he's Right. collecting them. Cor! Will And Ann. I put I've got them for, for er, see if Put those they've been a pain. at that end look. Yeah. Look at our picture! It's erm That's a beautiful picture James! I have to freeze it, er defrost it in the kitchen the night You've Right. drawn me a No problem. bee! Was it No problem. ? ! Nearly And Martin you remembered It's just there. going to his mum's I'll do it again. Yes. And James did it? Well you're very clever She, cos she boys! No. Ah. when she's been at the school gate, she comes What's this? and stands with me anyway usually What colour is this? so I'll see her. Mm. What? Why? So, if you put it up there . There you are. Okay? There you are. I wonder what's brought this change of heart? You have that. Mummy, see what she needs. What time have you to be in Clackmannan? Two o'clock. But I've gotta go Oh. back into the . Aha. The er the roads up right up to Ashington is closed. I wonder if I'll get o through Longhurst okay? Well you should do, but it never mentions that. I'm wondering whether to go the A one way, or Longhurst way. I mean, there's no easy way to get there. Th they never mentioned You have that. And you have those. Well, there's no, well there is a there is a bit between er, Ocken and er Widdrington isn't there? There's quite a bit Yeah. there. I'll go the A one way I think. Aha. But they've mentioned that but it was You've made clean but it was quite funny yesterday when I went to Let's have a look. Ashington. Yeah. Oh! You have done green and red, yes. No, but they never mentioned That's a beautiful picture! He's brought Goldilocks Ann, erm can he bring it home please because he reads it at night before he goes to bed. And if he doesn't he goes mad! I read, I went Cos that's his favourite book. Oh! You should have left your Goldilocks at home and just choosed mine. Oh! You see Mm. And then we wouldn't, you wouldn't forget. I wanna read this one. He feels a bit at grief cos he didn't I didn't That one. James had an extra Goldilocks Oh dear me! story yesterday, last night. Let's have your picture. Because what? James had an extra Goldilocks story Right, the tissues? yesterday so he's brought it with him, it's Ja it's his book! Oh I see. Where are the tissues? Is that your book today? The tissues? In the kitchen I think. What time And, and use the, use Billy Goats Gruff. and use the your home. Upstairs Billy Goats Gruff Ann? A and, erm Pardon? I'm talking to . The Three Billy Goats Gruff? Where will it be? I don't know where it it should be You've got a runny nose Richard. Give us a kiss bye-bye. The Three Billy Goats Gruff Yeah I know that. should be with all the books. I read it to them yesterday afternoon. We practised didn't we? I don't know. You Cos when we went to nursery yesterday morning Jim, all the children Mine! sat on the floor for this story. Erm! Mine! And these three wouldn't cos they're used to sitting on the chair arm. Aren't you? But we, we'd better practise sitting on the floor for stories, so that you're ready for nursery when you go Have to sit on the floor. Well if practise that properly in May. I'll practise them not running off! I wanna see those ! Right, well give us a kiss bye-bye then. No. See you tomorrow. trousers. Oh no Ja oh! It's alright cos Ann's Bye-bye. Come and see what Ann's got. James this ho this hole in the corner near the Bye-bye. door is being stuffed Ta-ta mummy. with all kinds of things! I bet that's where half my crayons are. Yes, it's in the front room. Yes, it's in the front room. Look, no Richard! I don't want things stuffing down that hole. Put it in the bin. Clever boy. Come and say bye-bye to mummy, look, cos she's in a hurry. I want to come with you. Yes, well say tarrah to mummy first then. Come, are you coming to the door? Well I'll, I'll just Well pu i alright put it in the bin quickly, then come and say bye-bye to mummy. Hurry up. Hurry up! Hurry up! Diddle ee dee dee! That's it. go and say tarrah to mummy. Er, no! Oh ho ! James doesn't! Oh ho ! Oh! What a polite boy. I know. Bye-bye mummy. Go on then, give me a No! I've got to open that without that in. Tarrah mummy! Bye-bye! I want Beethoven music. We want Beethoven! You want Beethoven music? You want Beethov Oh alright. I want ! Who wants Beethoven music? Richard and James. Oh right, if Richard and James. alright you can have Beethoven music. I'm going to go and wave to your mummy, seeing as no one else will! She's gone, mummy. Horrible lot! I'll wave to you . Oh! They're too busy jumping around wanting Beethoven music. I wonder if up to them you know. Well they don't like Elvis. No they don't. James doesn't anyway. He switched it off. Are you staying at your mum's tonight? No. I'm staying at Christopher's. Oh. Aha. She's not been any more so I'll have to go round to . Aha. And then he'll be . How long's your mother going to stay? Few weeks. Don't look like that ! Well Oh! But the thing is, my mum's an and, and Trevor's Aunty Edna have started writing to each other and have become friends so we'll see you again at Christmas she'll say to aunty Edna ! So they've both invited themselves again. Oh! God! And my mum's going to on holiday to Wales she thinks, this summer Aha. which I'm really pleased about cos she's never done that before in Wales. Yes. But she might be going with a friend, and I think she's planning on meeting up with Aunty Edna. So it's gonna be a conspiracy against him. Aunty Edna's Trevor's Aunty Edna i that's right Yes. yes. Oh well. But they're lovely separately. Put them together, and I think we've lost out. Oh well. Martin still calls her Aunty Yakky Da! O hang on, I can't hear you. What? Martin still calls her Aunty Yakky Da. Aunty Yakky Da! Yakky Da! Right. I'll see you on Monday. Monday. Bye! Bye! We, we just we, we're having a look at Beethoven's music! Yo you're not having a look at Beethoven music, you're listening to Beethoven music. We're lis we're listening. And then they want Mozart music on they said. Who wants Mozart? After, after Richard. Beethoven's did. After Beethoven, what? You want Mozart music do you? After Beethoven. I see. Me ee! And er, and . And Bryony's going to play the piano at the same time Yeah. No. is she? He says he's gonna Pardon? Ah, I am. Those begonias are doing quite well now look. Ooh yes! They've sprouted up. That's erm Billy Goat Gruff. Richard, what? Yes. That's Billy Goat Gruff. Look at these begonias! Oh!! I want to see the Billy Goat Gruff. They're growing bigger aren't they? Billy Goat Gruff. Mind the door darling. I think that umbrella tree's going to have to be thrown out. Hello! Anna! Hello Bryony! Look! Come on. You can come and Yes, I'm in here as well. What d'ya have Well to do? The very Billy Goats Gruff. How can you listen to music and listen to the Three Billy Goats Gruff at the same time? Once upon a time! Once upon a time Once upon a time Why don't you save the story for when I go to the hairdresser? there was three billy goats Cos I'll be going out in Hello! in what? I made some coffee? Have you? Oh thank you. One fine day in the Bluesberry Woods Right, Jim's made me some coffee, so while you have the story Yes, yes! Me! I'll go and drink my coffee. and at the bridge lived three billy goats gruff Look what I've got! I founded you You found it for me? What is it you've found for me? Erm, a card. Oh, my Mother's Day Card. That's the one from Jim. What are you doing? ! Yeah. Right, take come and have your milk and biscuits, I've got it ready. Come along Bryony. I want that off. Alright. I'll turn it off then. Jim put it off. Don't touch! Go with Ann. Come along then. It's ready. Come and get your biscuits. Cos I've got to go out in a few minutes. I know, I wa I want this Come along James. Won't this work . What are you doing this? What am I doing? I'm get I've going to give you your milk and biscuits. What have you got in your hand? What have I got in my hand? I've got a a tape recorder in my hand. Right, let's have you at the table. Well, Bryony wants to sit in her own chair today, so you sit on your own chair. No I don't want to sit there. Well she might want to swap later. I don't You don't wa wanna go on my chair ! You don't want to go on your chair? You haven't sat in your own chair all this week. I don't wanna sit on that! Come on. Clever boy. Cos I've got to go out in ten minutes, I'm going to get my hair done and you're going to look after Jim aren't you? Come along. Up you jump. Let's see how quickly you can jump up off the floor. Let's see if you can jump up Well where's my coffee then? I thought you'd had yours when you made mine. I'll make you I made yours, and mine, but you never I'm brought mine. finishing my cup . Oh! Sorry. I didn't think it was in there. Let's see how quickly Richard can No. jump up, see if he can jump up before I count three. One, two No. three! Oh! He Yeah. can't. Come on Twinkle, up you come. Oh! No! No! You're going to have a squawk are you? No ! Don't you want this nice biscuit? I don't want any No do there's yours look James. Don't eat Ah. your brother's as well. Oh well. Richard doesn't want his biscuit. He just got mine then ! He hasn't, I got it back off him. Look, there it is. He just took it . There it is. Up you jump. There. He just got it . I just wanna have er any ! And that one's yours. Right, I'll we'll go out after dinner shall we? Well I just wanna go We'll go and see if the river's gone down any more. See if the swans have come back shall we? After dinner! Where were they? I don't want another I think it might be deep, because that'll be deep. Yeah. Is it very deep? That wasn't Yeah. I'm not going to . It will be deep. Well I am not going to ma ma my, I do I am not going to go in my own chair ! You're not going to go in your own chair? Well, in that case, wait till Bryony's finished hers and then you can sit in her chair. Will that do you? See if we've got there's lots of milk left. Right. He's got his Mummy, I'm tired. Mine! Well give him it what back? My drink. Well that biscuit. I've drunk drunken it. You've drunken it? It's, you you've drunk it you mean? No you haven't. Are you going to drink yours later then? I'm going to look for my . I think I'll have to get some straws and you can practise drinking out of th drinking with straws. Cos they have little We milk bottles at nursery school don't they? With straws. So we could Quickly! I don't Look if we don't be quick it'll be time to meet the children from school before No. we've even got anywhere. Right, here are your reins Bryony. Have yours then. Arms in. Don't want to. Just put your straps on Oh. so you can get in the buggy. Yes you can have the red cover on you, don't worry. Haven't even got the buggy out yet. I didn't Have you got want to get it out till the last minute in case it rained on it again. Right, who's next? I'm red. I'm next! I'm red ! You're red! I no, the door's locked Bryony. I'm not ready to get the buggy out yet. I haven't got your coats on, or mine even. Right. You stand still. Good boy. Hood up. Wait a minute! Where are your reins? Don't think that, come here! Don't run away when I'm trying to Richard get you ready! Richard run away. Well Richard'll be left behind won't he? Come on Richard. I'm coming! If you're coming, come now. I'm going in the I'm really cold! front today. No, I want James in the front today. Oh! And I'm having the, I'm er I having the Listen to me! Listen to me! Listen to me! Well I'm having the ee ee Will you be qui yo will you be quiet and listen please. I want James in the front today because the buggy is easier to tip up with the lightest one in the front. And Oh oh! if it starts to snow or hailstone, or pour down I want to try and carry the umbrella and it's very difficult I wa do I wa I wa I wa I want ah to, push a buggy with three of you in, and hold an umbrella up. So now don't vanish again. You can't get out the door James cos it's locked. You've got reins. You're going to get it. No. Right, let's have the cream on your faces. Come here. Come come on, we've got to windproof I'm not a you. I'm not ha having some on my face. Am I? Lift your dab, dab, dab dab dab. My mummy. Rub a dub dub, three I don't want that. keep still it'll go in your mush. Three men in A tub a tub. I don't like that ! Yes you do like it, it stops your face getting sore. I don't like it ! Who wants a sore face? I don't like it. I don't. No you don't. I don't. Did you have to do that James? Give it back to me please. Thank you. It'll have to be washed now. Right, let's have the cream on your face. Bryony do you want some? No. But, I don't. But, we need I don't. Ready. I don't want some on me. But I don't want some on me. Stand still please James. I don't want some on me. I don't want some on me . Well don't you? Why? But I don't. Well your face doesn't get in a mess like the boys No. does, does it? I don't ! Alright. Just a tiny bit to your face. So your face doesn't get No ! sore. No ! Alright. You get rid of them shells. No. Hey! Little boys do not sit on windowsills. Get down! Before you break your neck. Come on. Down, quickly. Get back on that chair arm. Get off! I pull him down. It's not a good idea to pull him off. Let me have a look. Don't you climb on now you've pulled him off. Let's have a look at you. He's . What did you bump? Show me what you bumped. I hate you ! Show me what you bumped. Erm, I fell off the end. He just did something did he? Aha. Come on, let's have your straps on. Er, what has he done? What did he do'ed ? What did he do? What did he do? On the arm. James pulled Richard off the windowsill and sat on his head. Now come down! Down! Now! You're not to climb up there. Dangerous. He know, it's high. You will fall on yourself and bang your head on the radiator when you step backwards. Well don't kick me with those shoes. We're going. Yes. Right. Have my coat on. Where are we going now? Will you pick that cover up off the floor please so I can get near the back door? Thank you. That's my Ooh! Ooh! cover, there's my rain cover. There That one's Bryony's the red one. Who knows where my gloves are? Mine is the red one. Here's yours, yours is on the radiator Richard. There's yours. And I Mine. don't want you to take them outside because you trail them in the wet. I know And there's no point in we do. put, covering you I want my raincoat on. That's my raincoat. I'm going to cover you up with And thi thi Yes, that one's yours. out. Let me find my gloves first. Are they in my shopping bag? And my covers! Richard No they're not in like this. Where's mine? Where's your cover? It's on the radiator in the hall. Go and get it carefully It's I think lovely and warm. I think it's there. No it's not, it's in the chair in the kitchen look. It's on the chair in the kitchen. Why have you only got one hand in this glove. Oh oh oh! There. There. Where,aargh! Mine! Mine ! Mine, he's ! What are you doing? Don't! I think I'll cry in a minute. Get out the way. What's the matter? Did you hit your sister again? Well you might be the smallest, but you're a bully do you know that? He's a naughty boy ! He is a naughty boy when he hits you for nothing. That's not kind is it? I'll in a minute! You'll what in a minute? Right. Let's have my lipstick on. We'll be ready yet, won't we? Ooh! Ooh! Ooh! What time is it? I don't wanna go out. I don't wanna go out . Do you realize we've been trying to get ready for twenty minutes? Or more. Move over please, I can't get past you. You can. I can't. Let me just write the Dee dee ee, dee dee ah ha . Did you see the river? Hold on a minute. There you are, you're past. Yep. Let's go out. he hit Richard, where have you got me! I know he hit you pet, but you're better now aren't you? Richard, come back please. Naughty. Er, naughty. No you do not need to go in the shower. You're not going in the shower! Come back! I've been in the Come back! shower. You've been in the shower have you? I been in the shower. I go in that shower . I been in the shower. Have you? I'm going to climb in. You're not supposed to go in the shower with shoes on. I did. I did. Right. I'm fastened up. Well turn it on . Now then, gloves. Where have I put the key? I'm going to get the buggy out of the garage so mind your, Yeah. lift Jack out the way. Now listen, I want nobody to come over the step because you're trailing these covers and you'll get them wet, so inside! Are you listening James? I am listening. Good. I'm pleased to hear it. Right, I'll just get the when I get this lock off two three, that's it. I said stay inside James! No! Stay on the doorstep please till I bring the buggy over. Cos it's very wet, and if you jump in this puddle and get your trousers wet we'll never get out if we've got to stop to change you. Oh! And I hope the handle's not stuck this time. Or I'll have to bash it with a rolling pin again. I want to go. You want to what? I want to go in my seat. Oh in a minute, I've got to put get my lock off the gate put it back in. Now wait a minute till I get the handle fixed. Wait a min oh! It's sticking, look. Let me, wait till I You come in and tt. get one. Oh ! You come in and get one. No! Don't get in yet ple er will you bring me the rolling pin please James. I will. Go with si go on then, now! I want, I want to go in. Let me get anybody. Don't fight, I asked James cos he was nearest Richard. I sit in. You're not going in the front Bryony, you're going in the back beside Richard. Can you get in the back please. I'm in, in the back. Go on then, climb in the back. No. I wonder if I kicked it Is that a rolling pin? wait a minute I've kicked it. Oh! It's a bit Is that a rolling pin? Still no good though. Is that a rolling pin? Yes, no. That's a roll of greaseproof paper . You know what a rolling pin looks like. What do we use when we're baking pas oh it's alright, I've fixed it. Right. Wait till I put the brake on. Right, come and get in. Bryony, you've got in the front, you're supposed to be in the back. Oh. Come on. No ! In you get. No! Good girl. Sit down please. Sit down please. No ! That's it. No! That's a rolling pin. Clever boy. But it, I don't need it now, I managed to fix it without bashing it with that. Oh jump! Mm . Don't climb over backwards, get in the side like you're supposed to. He's getting in my In you get. side! He's not in your side. Right. Sit down so I can fasten you all in. No! Wait a minute. I'll go in that one side. And mine Oh . not that. Where's Richard clipped in. Turn round James. Put your foot re Ee ee ee Put your footrest up. What? What? No! No ! Leave your sister's face alone Re Richard. Er, naughty boy ! I think your brothers are not being kind to you today are they? They're naughty boys! Don't say it's raining again! Oh! Ah. Not raining There. now. Right, that's everybody clipped in. Let's get your rain covers on. Keep Yep. the wind off you. No! No! I don't, I don't want to . Maybe you don't want to but it'll keep the wind off you, and it keeps raining. No! No ! Well you'll just have to cry Bryony because you're going to have them on because it keeps raining. I don't And, they'll keep your hands warm cos none of you'll keep your gloves on will you? Right. Red one for Bryony No . to match your coat. Here we are. Where is she? My hood's come off. Quick! Your ho alright! Your hood's come off, we'll pull it up again. Don't panic. Just tell me, there's no need to squawk. Right. Let's see. And you've done it like this. Put your head up straight so I can get this one on top of this. And then it won't come off. It's on . Your hood's up, your, your anorak will But I want it that way . You don't want it That way. That's right. That's the way it goes. Oh! Now then, let's see put your feet straight on the footrest so I can tuck these things over. Well you just get my rain cover. I haven't got mine. I'm going to get your rain cover, I can only I've got two hands and there are three of you. So you have to wait your turn. Who's been tearing up all the newspaper that the wet wellies were on? I don't know. Right. Richard, let's get yours on. We didn't do it, we didn't do it Ann. Oh! No, you never do it do you ? The other one did, no, other ones did it. The other ones did? Mhm. It wasn't torn up when the other ones went to school. So I don't think they did it. Put your arm up a little bit till I can get this pulled down over your feet. There! Is everybody wrapped up warm? Now hang on, cos I need some tissues in my pocket. Erm where are we? I don't need my purse. Do you need your pen? Let's see I need my umbrella my gloves, where have I put the key now? I took it out so you wouldn't lock me ou oh, it's my coat pocket. I'll just put the lock off the gate on the windowsill. Er I need that piece of paper. I think we're ready. I think. Right, what's stuck to my foot? A piece of newspaper. Lock the door. Take that you've got to take that. I've got, yes. You've got to take that? You've got to take that! Mhm. Can I put this bag do you think it'll just go on there? By me. I'll just put it on there like that. No. Cos it keeps slipping off my shoulder. Oh! I've still got my glasses on and I don't need them. I don't like that there. I'll just put them in the bag cos I've locked the door. And move your bag. Carry it on my shoulders. Yes. I know you carry it on your shoulder sometimes. It's a bit long for you. Oh! But Look at I want I'll have to go back in the house because I've got two odd gloves on. I've got two left hand gloves here. Ooh, I am a nitwit! I don't know where I go er Right. That's better. I've got a pair of gloves now instead of two odd ones. Well put it on. I'm going to put it o You can put that one on. I'm going to put it on. Put that one on. Got that one on. Yes. Right. And that Take the brake off, and off we go. Are we ready? We'll reverse out the gate. That way. Are you going to reverse. Beep, beep, beep, beep, beep! I don't want Ann. to. Aren't you doing it today? We're a minibus. We're a minibus today are we? Right, we're in the We're in a minibus. There. May we driving the minibus with you. You're in a minibus Bryony. James said he's in a double decker. And we're, I, I'm driving the . A what? I'm driving a minibus. You're driving a mini I'm driving a double decker. I'm driving a minibus. Yes, you're driving a minibus Bryony. James is driving a double decker. I don't know what Richard's driving. I'm driving a double decker. You're driving a double decker as well. I'm driving a double decker. The road! There we are. Right. Paul must be fixing his car. Paul not in his car today. Pardon? Paul not in his car today? Paul's not in his car today? No. I think he's been fixing it. Not many flowers left on that winter jasmine now are there? Winter jasmine. Yes. It's winter jasmine. There's only about six left on. The leaves are growing now though. The flowers come on before the leaves come on. And when the when the flowers drop off the leaves grow. Pardon. You'll have to talk louder I can't hear you, you're all muffled under those covers. And we're all muffled under the And the wind's blowing in my ears. Pardon. We're nice and warm aren't we? You're nice and warm? We're nice and warm now. We're nice and warm. Yes you are nice and warm. We're nice and warm. My face is cold. The rest of me gets warm with pushing this buggy. I'm cold. Buggy. Buggy. Buggy. Buggy. My hands are cold. Mm? I saw a Telecom van. You did. I saw a Telecom van I don't think it is a Telecom van any more. It used to be but I think it's an old I think it's an old one that somebody's bought to use for themselves. Cos they've painted the Telecom writing off it. So it's just plain yellow now. The new Telecom vans are grey. I like the yellow ones better. I like the yellow ones. You like the yellow ones as well. They're nice bright ones aren't they? I like the yellow ones. Well the new ones are grey. Can you see the sandbags? Look at those sacks full of sand near the door, near the shop door. They're called sandbags, do you know what they were for? What sandbags? That was to stop the water flooding into the shop. It didn't get quite that high though. Oh ! Ah ah! What can you see now? That, I can see a a gas van. Yes. That's right, that's a gas van. Clever boy Richard. Oh! Whoops! I can see a gas van. Yes, that's right. And I can Hello. Hello Shirley. Who was that coming? There goes the gas van. Gas van. Gas van. It is, it's a gas van. Why does it live there? Perhaps somebody's having a gas cooker repaired. Perhaps the gas cooker's broken and they need it mending. Oh look the boys and girls are coming for play time. I saw Erin run past and Amanda. Did you see Erin and Amanda? We saw . I wonder if Martin and Richard are out? Hello Claire. Hello! Hello Christie. Who's that? Can you see them? Look, they're coming out for play time. You can't wave to them can you, cos you're all covered up? Anyone else we know? There's Mrs . Hello. Mrs said hello. Oh. Hello. We'd better go hadn't we? Oh! It's too cold to stand still anyway for me. We'll see them when we come back to collect the others. See the . Wait a minute, I can't hear you Bryony? What pet? What did you say? I don't know what you said. I didn't hear you properly. Minibus. Is that the minibus you're driving Bryony? I'm driving my minibus. Hang on a minute. This path's all covered in mud look. I'm driving my minibus. I'm driving my mini It's a plarty path. Yes it wa you're driving your minibus. And one just went past. Didn't it? He's driving double decker. Oh, a man's pressed the button we can't make it in time. Another minibus. Another minibus. And a motorbike. Oh it's a . What colour's that car? Black. I can see an, an orange Land Rover. It's an electric one, electric van. Hurry up green man. He's coming now. Over we go. Round the corner. There look. There's an electricity van. It's an electricity Land Rover. With two big ladders on it. There. Look at the trees now. Oh look! Can you see the buds on the conker trees? Look! They've all opened out. Can you see all the new little leaves on the conker tree? I didn't notice them before. No. Probably cos we've had to walk with my head down with the rain all the time. Right, we'll go along we'll go the long way. No, go just here. Mm? What can we hear. What can you hear? Oh. Yes we're going in here, we say that again, what did you say? What can you hear? Oh! That was what you said, what can you hear? I can hear the Car wash! That's right. The car wash. You can see the steam coming from it cos it's hot water. I can hear the weir. Listen. Can you hear the weir. I can hear the weir. At least you can see the weir today, we couldn't see it on Wednesday could we? The water went straight across the top. There wasn't a weir there. Oh no! Oh look. It's all bubbling up again. The water's still flowing very fast isn't it? It's very deep. It is very deep isn't it? It is very deep. It's very, very deep. But it's gone down a lot. I bet there's been a lot ducks' nests washed away though. I don't think there'll be as many ducklings this year. A lot of the ducks' nests will have been washed away. I can see . Can you see the sand on this path where the water's been right over the top of it? Yeah. What you saying Bryony? What love? I wish you'd talk a bit louder I can't hear you. Look, here's another conker tree. Horse chestnut. Can you see the leaves? Wait a minute, I can reach this one. So can I. Look at this one, can you see hang on there look look at the leaves opening, oh, you're too far forward. There look. Can you see James? No. Up here look. Yes. And, can you see on the end, look that's where the flowers'll grow, the blossom. They look like big candles don't they, when they're growing? That's the beginnings of the flowers growing. Can you see all the sand on the grass? Up came the river and Yes, the river washed it all up, right over this path. Look, we're going through sand now. Think we were at the beach wouldn't you? Yes, it looks like the beach with all the sand across the path. The river washed it all up onto the path. Ah! Ah! We're on a beach. Look Ann. Can't see the swans though. They're not at this end of the river. Can you see ducks, Ann? Yes, I can see ducks. Ah look! There's a white duck. Can you see the white duck? Straight over there look. There's a white I see it! duck. There. I can't see the white ducks over there. Oh oh! . There are white ducks over there. White ducks like that one have escaped from farms. And th and the they're little, little lady ducks. There a lot more drakes than ducks though look, aren't there? They I look? Yes, you look. There's a Moorhens! Moorhens? Where? I can't se Over there. I can't see any just at the moment. There. How much time have we got? Right, we'll go up this way, through the promena along the promenade, and then we'll go back through the town and it'll be time to get the others from school by then. Don't push me! Right. Where we going? We're going for a walk along the river to see if we can if the swans are near the Old Gate Bridge. See what else we can find to see. I'm having the bag like that one. No you're not. I'm having the, I'm having the bag! I having the bag! You're having the bag. Mm. Are you carrying my bag for me? I'm carrying your bag for you. Someone naughty's smashed a seat, look! Can you see? A seat's missing from there. Just the posts at the end. Naughty . When Jim and I came along at night time on Wednesday Oh look! there was erm There's some Where did you go there? there's some more duck. Those are drakes those. Yes. They're the daddy ones. There was erm, some ribbons tied right across here sa saying police notice closed. Couldn't go down there under the promenade. But the river was right over the top of it. Who left the gate open? Who left the gate open? I don't know. Oh it's tied up a somebody's tied it back with a piece of string. What's the dog doing there? What's the dog doing? I can't see a dog, where is it? I can't see a dog. I can only see a daddy and a little girl on a roundabout. Along where? We're going down here, yes. Don't want to go down here. Right, now this is steep hill so I've got to go slowly and hang on to you tightly so th buggy doesn't run away from me. Whee! Vroom! Whee! There we are, we're at the bottom. We haven't seen any moorhens at all have we? Look over there! There is over there. Look though I can only see one one duck all the rest are drakes. One, two three, four Oh! five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve, thirteen drakes and one duck. Not many ducks though are there? They're all daddy ones. I see a white one. I see the white one. Yes, we saw a white one, that was round near the leisure centre. Yeah. Wasn't it? Over the bridge. Can you see all the bubbles on the river. All the white bits. That's all the air bubbles because the river's flowing so fast. Blue, blue And bubbling up over the stepping stones and things. Can you hear the birds singing? Listen. Er yeah. Can you hear? I hear birds singing. You can hear the birds singing. Yes. They're in those trees up there. I wanna go in the tunnel. You want to go in the tunnel? Yeah. You mean underneath the bridge? I think it's still flooded James. I want to go under the bridge. It was still flooded yesterday. And all up under the ? I want to go under the tunnel. I want to go under the tunnel. We can't pet, I can't get the buggy down the steps I've got anyway. I've got I've got my coat on. Yes, you've got your coat on. You need your coat on today don't you? And I've got a . I've got coat on. Yes, we've all got our coats on. Cos it's cold. Look at the wind blowing the trees. Can you see the wind blowing the leaves? Yes, I can. Oh, that was leaves. Yes. Can you see can you see all this rubbish, all these leaves and bits of grass and everything on this wire netting? Can you see James? Look all of this, this is where the river came up to. The wa the water was right up to there. That's why no one could come along here on Wednesday night. You can see how high the water is with all all that All with the water! all those bits of grass and leaves stuck on the fence. There's a bird singing, listen. Can you hear it? Sounds as if it's just above us sand. doesn't it? All this sand. All this, look Mm? with that stuck on the It has, it's there. all stuck on the fence. Bits of grass and leaves. And all kinds of rubbish What? stuck on the fence cos that that's how high the river was. And there's all those things got washed along in the river, they got stuck on the fence. And that's how hi you can tell how high it was. It was right over the top of this seat look. On the back. Even over the back of this seat. I see some on the fence. Mm mm. It got stuck on the fence. It did, yes. Didn't get stuck on here because these this fence is, has, hasn't got Stuck on the fence. netting on it. It's stuck on the fence. Yes. Yeah, they've oh! Hey! I wonder if you can there's a huge tree stuck underneath the bridge. Oh. I don't know, wait a minute till I see if I can where can I, can you see wait a minute, I'll show James first. Look James. Mm. What? Can you se no you're too far forward. Wait a minute. Can you see What? What? There's a big tree stuck underneath the bridge. If you look un can you see the bridge over there? Underneath the arch of the bridge. What's it doing It's a big tree stuck there. Now, can Richard see it? Hang on a minute. Bryony, can you see it now? Look through there look through that opening there. You're looking the wrong way. Let's see if Richard can see it. It's a huge tree! I can see it in the way. Can you see, Richard, now? Mm mm. Under the bridge. Ov that's, that's right. Big tree stuck underneath. Can I see the There's in it haven't they? I was looking the wrong way. What? I was looking the wrong way. You were looking the wrong way ? Yeah. Round the wrong way. I can, Look, I can do that. Do, down, and there. No. Look, if you look down there under the bridge in the tunnel, look it's still flooded. Oh! Look at all the sand, you can't get down the sand's so deep. Cos the river was right up here. Look at all that sand Look at that. it's left behind! Tha would make a huge sand pit that would. Look at that! Ooh! Golly! Look at the state of the path, it's all wet mud. Never mind. We can't go back again, we'll have to go this way. Look at the muddy state of the path! It's all muddy. We're gonna have muddy wheels. Never mind. Why? A pick-up ca pulling a horse box look. Oh, there's no horse in it though. That's a horse box for carrying horses around. But it's empty. There isn't a horse in it. If I can get across this road and the bridge I'll take you over the other side and you might be able see the big tree trunk better. Hang on, there's a car coming this way. Ah! That muddy path. What love? It's a wonderful contraption but Ooh! it looks heavy. It might be a wonderful contraption, but it is heavy ! Yeah. Now they're this size Yeah. I suppose, yes . It's, ooh! It's suppo hello. what are they . It's supposed to fit them until they're four, but it won't. Oh. No. It's had the handle repaired three times. Times, yeah. And you've got to balance And it's so high now their dad's mended each time, fortunately he teaches technology Oh.. and he's mended it, but er it's high. Yeah. It looks it. You know when I want to turn a corner I've got to stand on my toes and put my full weight on it to turn it. you could have them on a lead couldn't you ? Oh they're, they're they can walk very well That's right. and they can walk a long way But but if the weather's bad Yes. and they want to stop and look in They want to be every shop window Oh I know. which we usually do Yes. Yes. it takes forever to do it. So That's right. That's the best way . So this is we yes. How's your hubby? He's fine thank you. Yes. But the Yes. last time I met him he was off sick. He was off for ten weeks. Was he really? Yeah. Yes. But he's Yeah. he's they put him on erm he went onto ward one Oh yeah. because it was lighter Yes. for Aha. oh about six weeks I think he was on er and then he decided he was well enough to go back to his Go back. own heavy ward. So he's fit again? Yes. Oh well,tha as long as he's . Yes. Mind, the election's taking up quite a lot of his time. Ah! Yeah. He's out It will. so he I thought he would be, yeah. haven't seen a great deal of him recently. He can't leave it alone can he ? And I'll only go when it, the rain's not torrential. Get fed up being frozen and wet! Now then Where are we going then? Where are we going this time. Look, I've brought you, now you can, now you can see the great big tree stuck under the bridge. Look at it. Is Bryony looking the right way this time. Hang on, till I get the brake on,or you'll run into the river . Can you see? Look at that great big tree stuck under the bridge! It's pulled up by its roots. By the deep water running so fast. The water's been flowing so fast it's just dug up the tree by its roots and it pulled it along and it's got wedged in the bridge look. It's got wedged. Yes, it's wedged against Look! the bridge. Look! Yes. Oh, a digger going over the bridge, look. Digger! Yes. A digger. That's right. It's . I'll just er put you beside this seat for a minute while I check this whatsit. What are you doing? I've got to check, ouch! Oh my silly knee! I'm checking to see if this has stopped. I'll sit on this seat a little minute while you tell me what you can see. I can see a tree. I can see the tree do wedged under there. You can see the tree wedged under there? I can, oh you can, can you see the duck sitting on the bank? If you look under the arch of the bridge you can see them. What can you hear? Listen very carefully. Can you hear No. What can you hear? Hear a car. Hear what? I can hear a car coming. A car coming? Yes but listen what you can he I'll tell you what I'll turn you round. I can hear something else, another sound. Boys and girls. Yes! Clever girl. Bryony can hear boys and girls. They're in school, I'll show you where the school is. Look! Look! Ducks! Ducks! Ducks! I can Yes we ca I think these ducks must think we've got some bread for them, but we haven't have we? We haven't. We haven't. We haven't. No. They're coming to see if we have though. And there's a white duck come along now look. I think it's escaped from a farm. White duck. A white duck! Yes, a white duck. That's right. A duck. And there's one other duck that's a mallard duck isn't it? And all the rest are drakes again. Oh look! A green duck. Yes. What are green ones? The ones with green heads are Er, they're the mummy ones. They probably think we've got some bread for them. They're the mummy Yes. ones. What are the ones with green heads? They are the The . The what,da the what, Bryony? The daddy . Bryony said they were daddy ones. That's right. And the daddy ones are called Drake ones. Drakes. The drake ones, and the daddy ones are called drakes. Oh! My goodness! One, two, three, four, five, six, seven drakes chasing one duck! Poor duck. What's it doing then? They're chasing them. All the drakes are chasing the duck. Poor old duck. Yes. They're all chasing the duck. Ooh! They've all sat down. Mm? Sounds like the boys and girls are go having a good time at play time doesn't it? That's the school that Terry goes to. Ooh! We haven't been round this way for a while have we? We usually go one of the other ways. Where it's easier for you to walk. All chasing the duck weren't they? They were, yes. All of them were chasing the duck but they've all they've all decided to stop for the moment, they're all sitting down on the grass. I don't think you can see them, can you see them? Or is that tree in the way? I wonder if that's the latest fashion? All those boys er, over there have got scarves tied round their head like pirates. They are. They are what? Pirates? They are pirates. You think they're pirates do you? No she does not. That's the Er,we we're gonna get underneath the bridge. Over Pardon? there. What? stuck underneath the bridge? Yes. It is. It's still stuck underneath the bridge. Aha. It's stuck underneath the bridge. Still stuck Richard. Hello ! Come up here. Urgh! I don't want my . Di di di, ah da Here we go. Richard! You've got your what? Take the other side off. A birthday? It's an aeroplane that's You're in an aeroplane? Oh I see. I'll be the cook . She's sitting on a and doesn't know what she's sitting on! I see. Right I'll be, I'll be the . And Matthew's the cook in the kitchen. Richard, you're the driver. I'm being Right. the driver. That's one of Matthew's sticks! You want Matthew to ? Right. Richard! Stop driving! More please? Stop driving Richard. Can I have some more? Can I have some more? That's mine! I forgot, I've gotta change the batteries. Get off! Get off! Get off! Well the driver doesn't get any! Give that here! Mm mm. This is good. Richard! Stop driving please! Please Richard! Please Richard! Please stop jumping on the chair arms will you? Yeah. You don't jump on chair arms. That was your daddy James and Richard and Bryony. Your, he's, he's er he's going to try to leave school earlier today and he'll be here at half past four instead of quarter past five. So, I'll just drink my coffee and I'll get your tea ready quickly. Richard, you've gotta set the table. Richard, let me wipe your nose again. Keep still. Don't move your head around. I'll eat it up. There you are. Right, let me drink my coffee quickly and then get their tea ready. James! Oh gosh! I'm going to be drinking cold coffee here aren't I? You, can you slow down! D'ya know Rebecca Oh dear! What you gonna do? Rebecca made me a cup of coffee ages ago I didn't really mean it. and I'm never going to get it drunk. Oh! Oh! Right. Oh! Oh! Are you in the aeroplane now? Yo! Oh! You're what? You're bad guys? I know that Good guys. you don't have to tell me you're bad Yeah. guys. I'm being a bad guy. Is that Rebecca? You keep swallowing . Amy. Who's doing anything You did that? exciting this weekend? Me! Not me. Not you? We've got to sit at the back What are you doing? Nothing. You're not doing anything? Can Amy catch this aeroplane? Ah! You can. That there was a mighty splash. He'll, he'll tell you what's next. He please come out of that drawer will you? That's right. There was a mighty splash and he fell head first into the river and he didn't come up again. That's exactly right. You know it word for word. Every time I say what which story shall we have today, they say the Three Billy Goats Gruff. Get off! It's exactly the same. I don't need you! Exactly the same as when I used to look after . Amy and Richard! Here's your mum. Amy and Richard! Here's your mummy, Amy and Richard. Amy, mummy ! Just, he's going Here's your mummy! Oh! D'ya know I've wiped, washed this floor three times from this orange spilt! Seventeen one eighty fives? Thirty one Can't be bad cos I couldn't work it out ! Don't ask me. Do you want a calculator? I did it twice in my Mum! head. Mum! Thank you. Thank yo thank you very much. What, what did she say to you? She's trying to work money out Oh in her head. Move over please Rebecca, I need to sweep there dear. Let's have a look. I'll just, come over here cos this is hot. No you want it! No! Oh no! We want it in soup cups. Get your No! Yes you want it in soup cups. You can have it in soup cups. Do not worry. I'm stirring it to make sure it's hot enough. Warm enough. Don't worry . I'll have to though. I've got a clean spoon. I don't want a spoon. Erm It isn't warm enough yet. Go on. Just taste it. I didn't want the soup Yes yo warming . Yes you want, you don't want cold Are you go are you gonna get me a spoon? soup, it's a cold day. No! Let's see. Have you got your sleeves pushed up? That ready. We don't want soup on your sleeves. That ready. Do mine. Have you Mum. Oh. These are Amy's papers aren't they? Yeah. There you are. Ee ee ee ee. That's it. I've got my . What are you doing? I, I'll, I'll cut that in two. Wait a minute, I'll cut it in two. It's too big. With a bit of luck. Here you are. Sit on your chair. There's a piece of stottie for you. And there's a piece of stottie for you. Wave bye-bye to Ann now. Bye-bye Ann. Bye-bye Richard. Bye Amy. Bye. Bye Andrea. Thank you. Cor! I'll have to give this floor a wipe again. My shoes are sticking to the floor. Where there's orange been spilt. Mm mm. Oh ! Where's Bryony gone? Bryony come and have your tea pet . Your dad's coming at half past four. Well as near as half past four he can. That means he'll be quarter to five ! Why's he early tonight for? Well Dorothy had to go to a prison in erm Clackmannan for her Mm mm. you know with her job Yeah. and while she's up there, after she's been there she was going to Creep to spe What does she do again for Probation Officer. Oh! She's going to spend the night with her sister Yeah. and then pick her mother up cos she lives in Creep as well, she can't stay at her mother's house cos she's just Oh! got a one bedroomed flat. One bedroom flat? Yes. Anyway, she's I think it's an old people's flat. She's got she's gonna pick her mother up and come back home, bring her mother back home tomorrow with her. Mm mm! And Is that Martin's granny Iris? That's right. Mm mm. And she's going to stay for a fortnight with them. So bu Bryony! Your tea, come and have your tea ! What's she doing? Watching television . Come on square eyes! Never mind the television. Oh! Golly! This floor's sticky everywhere. You must have spilt more juice than I wiped up. Mm. Come on Bryony. Okay. Never mind, by the time Bryony! I've wiped this I'll have washed the whole floor. I won't need to do it tonight. I'll get some knitting done. Seeing as I haven't any ironing to do. We're not gonna have See if that's better. Urgh! You're not gonna be going before tea are you Bryony? See if this soup's warm enough now. Has she really got She's just gonna No! she keeps on running She away from me. she's not very well Sally. She's not well Ah! She's not even very we she's got a quite a bad Have you got a cold? Keeps on laughing at me and running away ! Oh. Come on horror! I'm not one I'm . Are you our horror? Not a horror! You're not a horror? What are you? I'm not erm What are you? You are the best girl in the world! That's right! The best girl in the world Sally! We told her that once she started going to the loo every time. There you are sh oh where's your cushion? You can't reach the table without your cushion? I want some more stottie Here it is. You want some more stottie Well that's no way to get any is it? Try again. Me May I have some more stottie please! That's a good boy. You like Thank you. stottie don't you? Do you know when I go stay with my Gareth I've got to so we've got to take stotties with us for him and Shirley. Cos they, Shirley loves it as well. And Shirley's not a Geordie like you. A Geordie hinny. Mm. Oh! There's a knot in your apron. I, I want some more stottie please? Good boy. Just a sec May I have er some more stottie You certainly may. Clever boy. Mm. Just wait one minute. Look a tree. Cos your brother's apron's got a knot in it. Please can I have some stottie please? You may. That apron alright? Me. Yeah. That apron alright? Yes his apron's alright now. You need your sleeves up. And you need it fastened a bit higher. I want my stottie Yes it's coming. It's coming. I want it. I It's coming. There you are. don't like it. Can we have some more stottie please? Yes. Here you are. I want to go . There now. Thank you. Clever boy. Oh! What polite children we've got. Haven't we? There's another. Can I have . Mm? We couldn't see the swans today Sally. Were they I couldn't see them either. Which way did you come home? Erm, the . Oh! And the Skillery Bridge isn't washed away is it? I know. But there's two Except under the bridge it was. erm trees But who, who started under there. the rumour that Skillery Bridge had been washed away? It was Stephen . Yeah but then dad said when he came in that, he'd heard that the middle of it had gone. What? Stephen came in our class and he said that er Skillery Bridge had And who said the flood wall had gone? When you were all sent home early. Er er I think he said that as well. Ha! One way of getting out of school, I don't know ! He did. He di he did. Said that as well? And and none of his parents came to collect him. He just walked by himself. Were you only collected? Could you only come out if your parents collected you? No, I didn't think they were bothered to tell you truth. So how did you manage to get out early? Well it was well Dawn's mum came into school she said we were I want one! Oh! But er nobody rang me. Mm! I don't think I was out. I mean, I would have come up and I've got a soup! and got you all. Have I got all my soup? You have, yes. You like that soup don't you? I don't know how she came in the school. Sh she just came in. She got this pen and paper and wrote everybody's names down mm mm so then she just I didn't re took them all out. I didn't realize, I would have thanked her. I've seen her twice since then. Mm mm! I didn't, I didn't realize that erm I wanna do something in my chair. Right. Let's find some spoons. One You love stottie cake. two Two three! three ee ee! There's a spoon for Bryony. One for James. And one for Richard. Are you going to swap hands Richard? I'll cross hands. You've, you've got it in Oh! You're going to be right handed today are you? I'm not trying to use both hands. That's first time I've seen Richard use his right hand. With his spoon. Who's this coming? Matthew, here's your daddy! Mummy's coming back for you two. Hello. Right then. Hello. Feeding time? It is. . There you go, you can speak to yourself. You're pretending that you're speaking to somebody and just speak all the time . I don't . You can't find your what? Find my shoes. Well You can't find your shoe? You've probably they're eating better than they did at dinner time. The triplets will have eaten it? What? A shoe. That wouldn't surprise me at all, the things I've seen them try to eat. Nope. Erm I'll let I'll let you figure this one out. Is it four four times? Monday he didn't come Tuesday he didn't come Wednesday he didn't come. Wednesday he didn't come. Thursday was about Thursday he did. I did two sessions . So that's five from ten. I didn't think I could be Well I know what you mean. Could I have some more stottie I ha cake please? I haven't been up there since I got in from school Aha. I haven't checked with the so in, just in case they don't Right. see it Okay. they had, they've been telling everyone to go home . Right. Now then ooh! You're eating very, very nicely. I, I want some more of that er please. Er don't wipe your se hang on a minute till I catch this soup that's dribbling down. You want some more stottie cake? I do. I, I got more of this soup. You have, yes. Yeah. Yeah. Is it delicious? Scrumptious! Scrumptious? It's dripping all over the place. It's dripping on the table is it? There's your stottie Bryony. There you are James. Please can I have some more? Yes you may. Please. He, he says he'll eat this. Oh! There you are Richard. Thank you. Thanks Ann. Thank you Ann. Good boy. Thank you Ann. Good You're welcome. Orange juice. He's got orange juice in it's got orange juice in it. Your cup's got orange juice in it has it? Have you got everything Matthew? Thank you. Do you think I'll be able to put my wellies away now? Away . I think Bryony likes erm Smarties because she's always sucking the juice out of beans. I'm just going to, I think I can put my wellies away now. You nearly needed your waders, I tell you! Well, we were getting worried. You'll get, I'll bet you were getting Okay. Thanks a lot. Bye. Bye Matthew. Bye. Right. Oh! I was gonna put the television off but Rebecca's still in there? Rebecca, is Joanna coming tonight? Or is she going to library? I think she'll be Oh look! going somewhere because I think it's twenty past four now. Mm. Yes. Well it's quarter past already. Why are you eating left-handed this Bryony? You don't eat left-handed. And Richard's decided to be right-handed after all this time. Well that is daddy's isn't it? I'm not spilling it too. I'm not spilling too. No, you're not spilling it. You're being very careful. Yes. But Can you drink it? but, but I'm making it very hard. Can you drink it ? No. Take your spoon out of this He's got it on his face! cup. He's got it on his No. face! Put that there. Who's got it on his face? He's got moustache! Right. Carefully, with two hands then. I want the spoon. You need your spoon. Oh. There it is. Wait a minute now, we'll just wipe that on this off the table so it doesn't go on your sleeve. That's it. There's some on my arm. There's some on your arm is there? Hang on a minute then. Let me see. Is it off? It is. That's good. That's why we push your sleeves up cos we don't want it on your arms do we? Erm hands. On your hand? There you are then. It's off. What are they having for their pudding? Er er Richard's got it all over his face ! Let's see you Richard. Yo oh just a minute, it's dripping down your chin. Let me get it off here so it doesn't go on your collar. Lift your chin up cos your collar's got out of your pinny somehow or other. Let me wipe it down here look. It's on the edge of the table. That's it. That's it. And on my . Oh well you'll ha if you keep getting it on your fingers just eat it up and I'll wash you when you've finished. As long as it's not going near your sleeve it doesn't matter. Shall I I want to stir it. Oh! Girls. What are you doing? Stop that now. Look, don't mess about. Daddy's coming early for you today. We've got these in our house. Those? Those These soup like soup like things. Well you know where I got them from. When er I dunno. you probably got them from the same place. They were free with petrol. Oh. And when Paul had his taxi business. Betty gave us them. Betty? Betty gave you yours. Betty gave me mine. They use so much petrol on a taxi business they got she's got about a dozen still I think. She gave me five I think it was. It's those that's the same. Well I think Jim got one and I got five. Erm Betty gave me five I meant. I think we've got about four or five. Richard! Properly please. And there. No. Do you want some help? Anyone want some help? Well you're getting nowhere doing that. Come on, I'll help you. I want to do that! Well, well do it properly then. Look if you hold the handle you can tip it, tip it up. Like, like that. Mm mm. it. Bryony's going to drink hers. Mm! I like that smell. Do you? Mm. My er Was it good washing with that Bold al Bold all in one? Erm Don't slurp it. Stop it ! I didn't think it was really much better than any Mm mm. item used. Are you finished Bryony? I'm finished. Are you going to eat your stottie That's, that's you keep on eating. Don't! Right. That's to go home with Trevor. Has Bryony got her other shoe back on again by the way, does anybody know? Erm, nope. She's, got a bare foot and sa a shoe on . Shall I take that off you Yeah. now you've eaten all that? Good girl. Give me your spoon. Give me your spoon. Thank you. Clever girl! What a clever girl! And you're a clever Look at those two! Pardon? No, look at those two. Look at those two? Yes. They're being good boys They're good boys aren't they? Well there. look at the sun shining again! Hooray! What? It's not dark yet. No it's not dark yet. It it's springtime now. It was dark when you went home in the It's light time. winter. It's light time. It's light time is it? Light time. It's the day time. Oh. Mm. It gets dark later now. Cos it's springtime now. And James has so soup on his sweatshirt. Mm. Keep still a minute while I wipe you. No that's that you don't It's because James will not sit straight at the table, he sits sideways. I know. Don't you? I don't. Oh yes you do. Ohyes you do No I don't OhYes you do No I don't . Yes you do. That's not what you're supposed to say. Richard'll tell you what you're supposed to say. You do it Richard. Oh!Yes you do . Yes you do ! I don't Richard. Do you want him to have this And what do you say? do you Anne? What? You didn't have this one before. No. You go. No I said that. You look as if you've been washing your face in soup. Do you want that one? Oh oh! Thanks Sal. Sally be careful! Oh you've got your sock off as well. Not Sally, Bryony. I'm calling you Sally! Aren't I silly? I'm not Yeah. Sally. You're not Sally are you? I said I'm not Sally. I'll go and I'll go and find your can anyone see Bryony's sock? Oh there it is. And where's her shoe? Right. Right. Let's put your shoe and so That's my shoe! Put your shoe and sock back on. Ooh! Bryony. Very good! Thank you James. Good boy. Give me your spoon. Let me see you take it off. Thank you. Ooh! It's not here. Have you finished with, ooh no, not quite Richard. Not finished. Not finished now. I want to do it. Well I'll he look it's difficult to get the last bit out of soup cups, I'll help you. You do it then. Here you are. I'll tip wait a minute look, you've got some on the table, you don't want your sleeve in that. I don't that bit there. You don't want that piece? Right let's sling it on the garage roof for the birds. Here you are stuggies Wo! For the birds. I hit it. Right from the back door. D'ya think It's the I'm brilliant? I give it the birds. Er, wait a minute. D'ya want a I think you brilliant. You think I'm brilliant? That's good. Do you want something else to eat? I do. Well sit back at the table please. Don't get off your chair until you've finished. I sit there. Let's see what I've got I want Let's see what I No can find for you. Aargh! Aargh! Aargh. Urgh! Do you want one of these? I do. I want one of them please. Say yes please. I don't Yes please. want one. You don't? No. I don't wa I this one. There you are. I want a green one. You wanted the green one? What Yeah. colour have you got James. I want a green one. lellow one. Yes, you've got yellow. I want green. There's one for you. Right. Let's see I, I get, there you are. There you are. There you are. I thank you. Give me yo Ann can you look, look a colour one for me? See what colour's in here for you then? You got a red one for me haven't you? What love? Here you are. Thank you. Oh! One for her, and none for . I have to get the packet open first. It's difficult. Where's my sharp knife? I'm gonna get you! Here we are. What colour ra what colour Richard? It's er er er erm What colour is it? Green. Yes. Green. Another green one. There you are Richard. Now where have I put the cloth? Here. I keep losing things don't I? We've lost one. I've lost one. Lost one what? Lost er What have you lost one of? Let me just wipe your hands and your chin before you wipe them on your sleeves. What are you doing down there Bryony? Get back on th I dropped it. I got it. What did you get? I got it. Can I have another biscuit please? You got what? I got my chocolate biscuit back. Well I got you gre got another green one haven't you? You want me to open that? I don't wanna, I'll do it. I want you to leave it open. Do you want it opening? I just want you to leave it in. You want it leaving in? I want it leaving in. Don't you want to eat it? I can still, I can still eat it inside. My shoe come off. You mean you want the wrapper leaving on it? Oh. My shoe come off. I know. I'm going to put your shoe on any second. I want the wrapper on. Do you mean like this Richard? I want Is that what you mean? the wrapper on. There you are. On it. Right Bryony I'll put your shoe on now. That's a . Come on then. It's your other foot. Bring your foot round carefully. That's it. And who's coming to see you tomorrow? Daddy! No, daddy's coming in a minute for you. Who's coming to see you tomorrow? Mummy! Daddy! Yes, mummy's coming back from Scotland, but who's she bringing with her? Granny Iris! Granny Iris! Granny Iris! Yes. Won't that be lovely ? And your Granny Jean had a lovely holiday. She went over the sea in an aeroplane didn't she? What? To Jordan. I'm going on today! And she went to Egypt at the end of last year. South America. Goes on lots of holidays doesn't she? There now. Are you finished James? Go, going on holiday again. My goodness! You've filled your mouth too fu Going on holiday again. Mm mm? Keep still. I've nearly finished. You've still got that lot. Do you want some milk James? Yeah I want Pardon? Yes please. Better. Where's your cup gone? Here. Erm I'll get you some milk. A I er I don't want erm finish my bun. There you are dear. Drink some milk Richard now. I, oops! It's lovely and sunny now. I want cold milk. Don't want it warming do I? No. There you are. Thank you. I big boy, I need the toilet. You need the toilet? A wa I say I've got a wa well I I don't I, but er I didn't er, I will get washed. I'll take the Yes. You need to be washed first. Mm. Let's wash your face quickly I will then, then we'll go to the toilet. Erm I will walk on the back erm . Let's see your hands. I need the toilet. I need You need the toilet as well? I need a poo please. Oh right. I need a wee. If they need the toilet I'll take them. Oh thanks Sal. You need the toilet James? Just a minute Erm I'll take it off for you. And I'll take them too cos I'm gonna go as well. Oh! Rebecca needs the toilet as well. You can take Richard up cos I'll take James. She's going to take you. I don't think James ne Richard needs to go, it's, it's No. er James. Sit down there you do ne ne don't need to go yet do you? Wait Sal! Sal. Wait a minute. Mm mm mm. It isn't loose enough it won't go over your head. You look after er Amy. Look after Amy? Amy's gone home. Amy's gone home. Look a . You Amy, and big Richard and Matthew have all gone Yeah. home now. But they didn't, you won't get Richard . Come on then. Come on then. Er, Richard! You're not going upstairs in a mess like that, you'll stick your hands on everything you come to. Let's get you washed. Are you going to finish eating that first? You sit there and finish eating that and I'll wash your hands. . I've eaten all up! You've eaten it all up? I've Yo finished. you put too much in your mouth at once. You can hardly close your mouth! Mm mm. Can you? I'm throwing water in the ceiling. I'm putting water in the ceiling. You put water in the ceiling? No, I'll put water on your ceiling. I don't want water on the ceiling. We had water on the ceiling. And I we I'm gonna put all of my . Gareth's turned the bath on. When Gareth lived with us before he got married he turned the bath on and walked away and left it. Mm mm. That was a mess! We couldn't have the lights on. all the water came over the top of the bath. I, I er,o we had to get the ladders we had to go up the ladders didn't we? Had to get the, ladder? I thought, they'd They went years ago. well I thought they'd gone but, but I saw them here. How long was our guarantee? Well there won't be anybody there. At Horsefields. Oh yeah! I haven't even read the papers today. Exactly. Past a thousand picture window normally two hundred and forty a pound, now only forty eight pounds. What? Do you think it's a real ? Well it says it is, it's been It's a whole page spread. Three at five hundred there. Don't go for that one there. the last three hundred . There's no catch. From such an established reputable company. All prices are fully inclusive of double glazing the Raid One Security P V C, da da da. Fittings and all the service guaranteed . Well I don't know. It doesn't say anywhere where there's a guarantee. All Windows in Cheshire. I wonder if it's the same address as when we got ours? Well, we should have the guarantee still, there in the box there. Unle it's, it's how Well long is it since it was supposed to have gone bust? Well that's since that. I thought it had gone ins I thought it was about ten years. Ah. Wasn't there somewhere in Lancaster Park who got the ? I can't remember. When we got that, when we had ours it, and er they said if you if you found someone else who would like who would have cold shield you would get er, seventy five pounds back. Mhm. And you gave the thing to, who was it who was thinking about it? Was it erm what did they call Isobel Isobel . . Wasn't it her? It might have been. I can't remember. Wasn't it just before or after her husband died? Dunno. Cos that, well I don't know, her husband died when we were just, came here. It could have been that. Yeah. Yeah. Well I phoned Shirley and she said she's fine. Mhm. I told her off for not le not telling me she was ill. And she said, no, no! I'm fine. She's got her friend Sandy staying with her. So where's Gareth gone? She was, he was in the house, I didn't speak to him though Oh. so that, I just spoke to Shirley. Erm Sandy's staying with her for a few days. What else did she say? Did you say about us going down or not? No I didn't mention it. Ah. At the moment. Have you asked her about the She's got somebody the letter? staying now. I asked her about the letter and she kne she said she couldn't remember anything about it but she filled in something when they came back from Belfast. Mhm. And she said, open it. So I opened it and it's one of these things er if you book to go to Dublin before May the, whatever, the end of May Mhm. then if you went again in the autumn you you ge you get er fifty pounds' worth of vouchers or something,yo you go half price. It's one of those con things like they tried Well like our holiday they, they go Yes. and,an where they booked. Why , I mean why would she go to Dublin, yeah. Dublin before Mm. it's and why Dublin when er, when they were Coming across from Belfast. when they crossed from Northern Aha. Ireland? I don't know. Cos they're trying to sell the things aren't Yeah. they, all the time? Anyway, she doesn't want it. Martin still ha hasn't got his erm invalidity pension sorted out. Mm mm. But he's managing alright at the moment. He's filled in all the things. I forgot to er, I haven't watched the television at all. And I forgot to record, what do you call that thing? With a devil in it? Well it was half I fo way through when I came I forgot to in. That's, I know, I forgot to record it for you. I think I'll go to bed early tonight. Does that rain mean it's off the coast or it's Mm. in our area ? Ha. And was that minus one just the western side or us as well? We'll get to th Oh yeah. we'll get it with the local news after this. Oh well. According to this it's cloud. At least it's a white cloud not a black one. Did you see your mother? No . Oh. But I've got a message , will you tell my brother, no, don't tell my brother th sa they said she said to one of the nurses and they said, your brother? Oh! My son. I said well what did yo don't you have to tell me? She says, I'm not gonna tell you. So I didn't get to hear what, what, I , they didn't have to tell nothing. Oh. What was she doing tonight? I don't know. Ooh! Mostly dry Mostly sunny spells. sunny spells. I'll have to get some washing done. Oh! Sally was quite intrigued by that. You'll have to get this week's a new one. We'll have to get a a better box. There's some bottles jars for the bottle bank as well. You know the last time you missed the erm Aye. the last time you missed the television pages television supplement and a comic thing out of the Mirror. I don't think he believed me. And it's in it'll be twice in a month. And Chris is back again as our paper boy. Tt. What happened to the new one? The other was so useless! But according to the er, that new manager in the paper shop everyone else got theirs. So I said, well I'm sorry but I'm not included in everyone else. And he gave me one. I think I'll get the Radio Times this week . The Radio Times? Why? Cos it's got all the them extra wo got all of them extra ones in. Oh. Are we staying up all Thursday night? I don't know. What shift are you on on Friday? I'm off. Oh! Of course. Well you could stay in bed all day on Friday. And I could take the kids to school and go back I could do that. We need to oh no we don't. I need to go to the Co-op and Iceland. What shall I get for your mother? I'll get her some chocolate biscuits or something. You would think she would put on a lot of weight wouldn't you? I don't think she eats that much though. I know, she's she doesn't eat that much, but what she is eating i everything's sweet. Mm. Chocolates and Is she eating them? Pardon? Does she eat though? Well sh I don't know. You know what the She goes in the staff are like? Mm? You know what those sa staff are like. I know. Most of them are, well yes. But, they certainly do. If anyone offered me a chocolate when I was nursing, yes I would eat it cos I was always hungry . Which reminds me I meant to get weighed this morning before I had my breakfast. That don't matter. And I forgot. Remind me tomorrow. Before I eat anything. I think I'd better put some washing in before I go out. Are those ankle boots dry? That's all she's saying you couldn't it with these before if you . What? The boots you've got on. Give better support than the ones those flat heeled ones. Where did you buy them from? For your Achilles' tendon. It's better now. I get, on Wednesday I, I did the erm Angeline said to me don't do the high impact if you think it's going to hurt again. I co still have the support under it. I managed okay. It didn't hurt. Who's Angeline? Which is the right one for The pink one's a dish cloth. The blue one's the one I wipe up small stains off the floor. Right. I wonder how Bryony is? What? I said, I wonder how Bryony is? And she wasn't very well yesterday. Every time she got a bump or knock off one of the others she was crying instead of clouting them back. It must have been Richard, I do I don't think Richard's very, he Sorry, what d'ya say Richard was? I said I don't well stop running the tap. I say, I don't think Richard's very well either. Cos he cried more than usual. I wonder what time, the other night, Trevor had with them on his own? What do you think of granny Jean offering it offering again to get Martin from school to save Trevor walking him home? Well it's well perhaps there's nothing in it for him. I don't know. I like her. Mm? I like her. Can I just ri rinse my thingy. And get my in. Ooh! I've got hand cream on my hands. That spurtle was used as a I can't A remember what Richard was using it as yesterday. Well he was poking me in the groin. What are we going to do about these tiles for the step I dunno. to cover this little hole in our path? I should hate to think what must be down there now. Tt. Oh! Well leave it cos it's it's Well I told you that Fenwicks had and they were cheaper than Cheaper? Fenwicks? but cheaper than what they call it? The place in, the old place. Yes. They were cheaper. I got the price for you. Cheaper than the do-it-yourself shop up Brady's? They were both But when, can we get through to Newcastle? Well I well I'll have a week's holiday after Easter and I've gotta go unless we go to . And I've got a an all day meeting, I've arranged it on the Tuesday that's if we're being presented to . Which Tuesday? After they break up? That's right. Which is, this, next Friday. Yes. So I hope to sort it out the Lenten appeal well The what? The Len Lin the Lenten's appeal at the schools that Mrs was supposed to let Miss know so she could get it off to the parents to get the money back so that they bought the scanner. See, you didn't tell me about that. I did tell you. You didn't. All you told me go on ah only this one's Miss wanted to all you told me was that Miss was retiring. But, I haven't to tell anyone. Which I haven't done. Which I don't intend to do. At the beginning of Lent Miss approached me Yes. to see what she should do about the Lenten appeal Aha. as she always does. Since I said, why send money to Great Ormond Street when there was plenty of children's things local? Yes. So I asked if we wanted anything? And she said what about the bed at the Cottage Hospital? What good's a bed with no extra nurses? Well there are special beds. Oh you mean a bed? Well Tt! D'ya mean a special kind of mattress be Well, she just asked about a bed, so I told her that we were You mean a bed to replace a bed that there already is? But why's She di na she just said a bed, and so Yes. I told her there were special beds that we have are very useful, in fact very necessary in some, some cases, and are painfully short of them. Aha. And a Nimbas bed costs two thousand pound. And there's another one on the market which I can't remember the name of, which costs a lot more. Mhm. Something like, five thousand. But I can't remember the name. Anyway, I said I'd make enquiries as to what a is wanted. And I said there's a, there's a new children's ward will open at the Wandsbergh Hospital perhaps they would like something. I saw Mrs , and Mrs said they were aiming to raise money for the scanner appeal. Yeah. But, also they're going to have a an obstetric adult patient's department at the College Hospital for the very first time. A what? A An obstetric outpatients Yeah. Yeah. and they're, obviously they would be, tend to be other children with mothers then so they would like perhaps a play facility there. And other children who go to the E N T clinic, and go to the or just go to the outpatients in general, and the casualty Yes. there's very limited facilities for children to play. So but I also coaxed Mrs about the Wandsbergh . Anyway, she wanted to, me to go and see her, she said there we there was a scanner appeal, and she was also trying to talk about all sorts of other things that were possible and because there was an arts appeal and for arts facilities at the hospital, and all sorts of things. So I went back to Miss and said about the scanner appeal and she said that would be she thought that that would be the best idea. Not the children's things at the Cottage Hospital. I also told her it's the diamond jubilee of the hospital and the children from will be invited to the hospital for that day that week, sorry. It's gonna be a week . So she wanted to know what date it is. So I, I asked Mrs to but would she write to Miss and give her all the details. And she said, oh she'd be, she'd be far better if she went to see and explained it all. And that she was going on Wednesday, I think. Up she went you know Hold on. Which one was going to see which It's one? Mrs was going to see Miss Was going to see Miss . Oh. I see. I didn't know which one. But I give them a so then I saw Mrs on Tuesday when I was at Ashington. And she came up with all sorts of things that she would like for the the new Wandsbergh development. But on a but there's nothing ready of course, so th there's, there's a giant sundial they're going to have in one of the courtyards and it's a giant one it's, it's the, the building and the blocks of things in, in the in the courtyard that make up the the time. So the sun shines on the that particular bit of the of the courtyard and it's eight o'clock, and that one is nine o'clock and so forth. This is just in a courtyard and there'll be shrubs and things so she's got Hold on. Wha how where is it going to be seen from? I presume it's seen from the wards that are up behind looking down onto this courtyard. There's also erm a play area for the the children's ward there's also some murals on the the walls, various artistic murals. And, of course, they've got this grant from Artcan for six thousand pound for a proggie mat exhibition. A six thousand pound grant for a proggie mat Well exhibition? well over, over a period, it's and other things too but they sa they said that murals and proggie mats are involved in it. And various other art things. But also,th the thought of a gar a garden and the children keeping the garden up. But that's a, apparently that was a long way and they have transport difficulties to go from here to the Wandsbergh Hospital. But then I thought, perhaps if that I can't see the education committee with their lack of money paying for transport for children from here Well they won't to go Ashington Hospital to do a they won't so the they, they garden. the, the, the education committee and the school governors have no money at all No. to pay for that. I would expect But then that's a very low priority. well it isn't even a priority, it is nothing. They won't get the money. Th they won't pay for them to go swimming Well I don't they've gotta walk to go swimming. But, I thought that now that the M S has acquired that bus and it's going to be standing around doing nothing for most of the time and it's a twenty nine seater bus. I mean, the seats come out so that wheelchairs can go in but in between times it's twenty seats you see. And then you'll need a P S V Well licence. but, but that's, that's that's easily remedied if you could get a er a driving licence holder to take them oh a volunteer driving licence holder among one of the parents or somebody who could take the children, er, periodically in the bus to visit the hospital to do this sort of thing. So that was a possibility. But I haven't seen Miss about all these sort of things. But I did also say to Mrs , that a new head would be appointed to take the imports from the first of September, that it might be better to discuss it with them after I've discussed with Miss . I only know one person I only know one bus driver with children. There's ambulance drivers. And he got hi I think their children go to the Catholic School. Er this letter from the Multiple Sclerosis Yes. Says any that says if you've got wheelchairs in you reduce your number of people. You're not To sixteen. you're not reducing the size of the bus. Well I think that's crazy. And someone who's been just used to driving a car are they going to be able to drive the huge long bus with no extra Well tuition? Well I, I Whether it's got whether it's got sixteen people in it or twenty nine Well er it doesn't alter the length of the bus. I drive the minibus at the hospital I know. which only takes four wheelchairs and of course there's the drivers of, of the minibus things that bring them. I think, I, I would query that anyway, that just Would you like to get into a vehicle the length of a bus with no extra tuition No. and just drive But, but it? but I query as well, whether just because you reduce the number of spa passengers in it that you, you, you don't need a P S V licence, or the equivalent isn't a P S V licence but it's, it's Oh you do,the they've looked into that. But it sounds doubtful to me. But anyway there's the insurance point of view. But anyway, any I mean that's the easy, and I mean, if, if people who are willing to drive can have experience in driving before they take passengers out. I mean, I didn't drive the minibus until I'd driven it without passengers. Yeah. I mean I I, I I drove the minibus with only somebody in with me before I drove out with people in it. Didn't you da drive Dancy Dags? Oh yes, I drove that, but that was a long time ago that. Yeah, but yo you drove that one I drove it to Ashington and Mm. You drive her to Ashington in it. Yes. Erm do you think I should throw these roses out? They're Aha. dead aren't they? I'm afraid so. It's a shame. Well they'll be forced for last Sunday. Pardon? They will be forced for last Sunday, and that was Oh I know. the air wasn't it? I know, but they were dead by about Tuesday. The yellow one was dead by Tuesday. So what a shame. Never mind. Right, I'll put my make up on. Have you decided where you want this umbrella tree? Er er You need a saucer at the bottom. But they're never the right size for that it wants . Well there's a huge saucer on the old one. Ah but that's in it you can put one in that Well plant pot, that's a different matter altogether. Jus just leave it there for now. Erm I'm going to put my make up on and think what I need from the shops. Right. It's ten o'clock love. I know. I'm gonna have to hurry up or you'll get no dinner. I'll take that upstairs with me. Ooh! My head feels a lot better. It's gotta be better. Oh ! I don't That er I haven't had a a headache like this for a Still it's much more quick. I know. I need some le er the, I wanted a carton of live yoghurt I don't think the live yoghurt I used was any good because, for a start it was fruit flavoured, no it wasn't, it was natural, but it said mild flavoured Mm. and I don't think it was the proper like the Greek style, real live yoghurt that would have Mm mm. started all the fungus growing on it. It is beginning to look like a proper stone cup though. And they're saying that er okay, I'll go and get ready. So do you want the yoghurt, yoghurt before we go to the ? I don't think it matters, but if the weather's still going to be freezing at night And if so does, does I've got the the,it's outside all the time anyway . I know, but it's got the polythene bag round it still. I got it standing on that brick so it would drain. I wish I knew what to do with the other azalea. Some of the erm stems on it look as if the not mouldy but they're, they're sort of Well we'll just have to dig it up and put green. another one in. Those hyacinths in the cauldron are taking a long time to come out aren't they? I know. I would have thought the tulip that went in the er coal scuttle the tulips in the cauldron I thought they'd had it, they were lying down completely. I know. They just straightened They were up. just grown up again. And those forget-me-nots that are called blue ball and are supposed to have brilliant blue flowers, they're coming out with erm tiny pinkey, purpley flowers. I know. If they're blue, so am I! And then we've got miniature roses gonna come up, one that's on it own, that one with the The wha on the tub. Is there one in the tub? No. Yes. Oh ye the one in the tub looks okay, it's the other one. Mhm. I like the other best as well, it's the peach one. When are you going to prune them? Well, when I plant that other one where you want it planted, that's I wonder when er John 's going to have the erm Wheelbarrow ready. Yes. Oh! Said in yesterday's paper that someone had had a wheelbarrow valued at thirty pounds stolen from a back garden and it was somewhere at Kirk Hill. Where the back gardens aren't particularly accessible. So ours must have cost, I'm sure that would cost them a lot more than thirty pounds. Mm. Cos it didn't, it didn't say a wrought iron wheelbarrow or anything, it just said a wheelbarrow. Well those er four tapes So we'll have to get it those four tapes, incidentally, I saw, you know the compil the Bach, Beethoven, Mozart and Tchaikovsky, I saw them for fifteen pound. What four tapes? The four, not tapes, compact discs. The set of four that we sent so they were fifteen pound in there. That who sent to you? That Shirley and Gareth sent me for Christmas. Ah ah! The I wish you'd think of something you would like for your birthday. I told you, I want a I would like a fiddle. D'ya know I and you need binoculars to go to Rome with. Take a couple of them. Well I can't see very well through binoculars. The Sistine Chapel. We mustn't take those big ones with us. Oh Jim they're too heavy. I know. You,an easier camera . It doesn't need a camera, it needs you! New No it doesn't. new camera What's happened with that camera, you've You got to rewind it every time the better ones now automatically wind, that's what I mean. You have never sat down and read You have to rewind it, it's a all the problem. read all the instructions, the same with the video camera. You haven't even watched the tape. When have I had an opportunity to watch the tape? Oh! You must have been able to squeeze half an hour sometime or other. Anyway, I'm going to get ready or we'll never get the shopping done before you go to work. Will we? Right, I'm ready. Have you locked the back door? I thought we were walking? No. I thought we were walking? No, it's alright. Are we not? Okay. Pardon? I thought we were walking? Well do you want to walk or do you want to go in the car? Well I'll have to go to the paper shop. Well I'll drop you at the paper shop while I go round Oh. That's a good idea. I'll turn it. I hope we can get out at the road end. Have you stuck a poster in, no you haven't, in the back window? No, I haven't. I think more people see the back Well I know, cos coming up that way than they do the front window. a lot of people go to now, more people Yeah. there, yeah. So they'll see it Yes. both ways. I'm gonna stick one in the back as well. Have I got my glasses with me or I can't see the prices. Oh! I haven't got my purse. Oh well, brilliant! Is that a squashed ball in the road? That means I haven't got a key to get back in the house. If you just stop here I'll run over the road. If you give me the key please. Thanks. Ooh! There's a car wants to be in. It's there. Sorry! He didn't look very pleased did he? If he was in a such a desperate hurry he could have gone down and gone over there. We don't usually get a second post on a Saturday. We do, you get a parcel delivery. Oh yeah. I've dropped my pen under your seat. I'll get it when we sa unless you, have you got another one? Thanks. Have you seen Kathleen, er Katherine recently? No. I've just realized I haven't either, when I saw that woman crossing the road I thought it was her. Please let us out someone! Press the It wasn't button somebody it wasn't them that was . Oh, thank you kind sir. It wasn't what? It wasn't the cars there it was the cars turning in that's stopping him getting out. We need some sugar. We've had no sugar all this week. Not that you've noticed. I made the custard from er sugar cubes. And I didn't know how lo how old the sugar cubes were. Right. We got them when we packed up your mother's house. Right, where am I, I'll meet at er Co-op. Co-op. Okay. Better hu hurry up. I can't get out any quicker. See you later. Hello. Hello. please. And there was no erm television supplement, and no comic in the Daily Mirror this morning. That's the second time in the past four weeks we've had missed that. Erm, I dunno. There's seven only, oh that one. Seventeen. Seventeen. Aha. That's three sixty four please. Sixteen forty eight. Thank you. That's it, thank you. There you go, the sixty five. Thank you. Thank you. One sixty two. Thank you. Thank you. You haven't given me the bits missing from the Mirror. Well that's erm tt nothing I can do about that until asking for the Mirror itself . Well I'm sorry but my Daily Mirror divi delivered this morning without the television supplement, and without the comic and I want The page of them. the actual page? The whole, the whole supplement that come on Saturdays. That was . That part. That part wasn't in? This part was not in. And there's usually a free comic as well and that wasn't in either. And that's the second time in the past four weeks that those pieces have been missing from it. Tt. Well, take that paper there okay. No, I don't need the whole paper, I've got the rest of it. Look, I cannae give you one out of there though. Well you're going to have to! Because I can't when I pay for a paper I want it to be complete, so I want that piece and I want that, that piece. No, wait a minute, where is it? Which is the television? Can you take my eighty P for this so we can go. Alright. Ta. What's that, sixty pence? Fifty. Where does it start? That's forty change. Thanks a lot. Ta. Which is the beginning of this? That's thirty six please. There we are. Right. Right, so I've got the two pieces that are missing from my paper. Sorry. And that's gonna be someone else's paper then? Well I've already paid for mine so I'm going to get Well some, well someone'll pay for that. so, well you'll just have to tell them that it's missing. But when I've paid for a newspaper I expect all the pieces that I've paid for. And I've already paid for mine, so this I'll take. Thank you. Hello. Alright? I said to him . Hello. Hello. That's A dona helps needy children and their communities abroad. It drop Oh. drops wells with clean water and I'll support that. things like that. Helps with education. Raises a lot of money through sponsorship. Aha. A few people committing money every month. Will it go in? Yeah. I'm sure it will. Thank you. Thank you. Thanks. Because we get no sun in this room whatsoever Oh. of course Yeah. with the the bathroom Well, you said we could. blocking it off. Er, we seem to have, you know, before Let's enough light in. before I was a gard er was a mo a gardener, and after I'd three years to the extent I can't. You sound like me, I'm always moving Who do you want me sign it as? Member or Vice Chairman? Vice Chairman please. That's Right. Would you like some coffee? No thank you. I'll er for years she's just come back and she's I said I want . Where's she been? She's been down to . Oh! I didn't know. I Yeah. was talking to Maurice yesterday. She's act she er they've been down for a for a flying visit, I think,th they like to fly and fly back because it gets th the fre used to the freedom. Yes. You get er rather tied up with looking after Marcus and his sister. Well, yeah. I know Marcus and Naomi is, is relatively easy compared with er He's a lovely little boy isn't he? Yeah, that one er,wha th were all from, from the er they were all from the Urgh! This coffee's cold. except for the last one which I missed off the last time. I, it went through alright, but er I've got a reminder this time so I I thought well I will miss that one. That er er,i information centre. Oh yes. Ah yes. Right well, have you That's it. sorted anything out about the oranges? Aha. Yes. Erm I've got a letter saying that it's er th the mayor the is it sixteen, fifteen pounds worth of o of er Oranges. oranges, is gonna be issued in the place we say that that er, er at two o'clock if it's wet we'll be in the the pavilion. Oh! Which is, like, next door. I had the Rotaract, erm, they said they'd probably be, offered, er er, one of these castle things er jumping castles from . Oh! Did you see those on the news yesterday? Aye. I see, yeah. They can cause a lot of apparently. Adults and children Yeah. injuries. I fell off one the week before last at the soft play but it wasn't blown up quite enough. Oh I see. And, as I ste Well there's no carpet, he said there's just Well, there was there's a great you know the big heavy erm, foam thing, but it kept slipping away. All the morning I kept pushing it back again. Aye. Yeah. They Er couldn't tell me I suppose. and it a it had happened to of slipped away at that time and I went to step off, and, with it not being blown up properly that's how it just flattened and I went off sid I've still got a big bruise on my left knee! Well erm the only So I, I do not jump on any more. the only trouble with that sort of thing i is, again if you ever get any wet on it because Mm. Mm mm. Oh well. And, there's certainly some So the mayor's taking out the oranges? And er So they've got, they've got it back now, so it's got nothing to do with us? No, I don't suppose, thank you. Er Do you work? No. Mm. No, erm basically er I think for the anyhow Trevor will be coming in, so we'll, we just st try and stay a little more to see what happens at the end. But erm See they handed it over to us and, but they didn't wanna you know, it was very when, what they call them? Erm It was Temple wasn't it,la last year? Aye, Temple was but it, it was a good job because we had no oranges and they had to go and break in. It's alright now . Yeah. Was that the year the oranges were horrible? Er I've Yeah. they were Seville oranges, I'm sure they were Well they've, they've been nice. Seville oranges. Aye. They've never been really nice. Yeah. Well I don't know where they're getting them from, but I mean, that's what they say. Well that year And they've got Round Table laid on to help and they want help from the from us. So they want us to go around at half past one or the two of them can start cos we've got an addition . Well, it worked. Er, I'm just wondered, you know,wi with because they came to expect it and we, we didn't know. And, they'd handed it over to us and then obviously they wanted it back, but then Well, I think it's like everything else, I think that er, with, with Lawrence being off they're just sort of meeting everything as a crisis and getting, getting Well if you're at work Yo you see as well to go with what you call them? Er, he, he Didn't he didn't want anything to do with it you see. That's where and he's not from , he's not from this end so had er no real interest for him I don't think. If you're at work Dorothy could go If I help, I'll help with Trevor with his triplets. Well you can go and get their oranges and the Yes, but it's, he, he couldn't possibly push that buggy around that field. But it isn't in the fields though. it's up beside the It's, it's it, it's Carlisle Park. Oh! That's Because better. because the, the, the pa the er Oh! Because of that lea The Easter Field is, is leaking It's got a . Yes. So it can't be used. Right. But I presume that we do turn out if we do it right in the middle. Well in actual fact, people who turned out were Isobel and me, and er what they call him? Er, one who goes on? Er, from Lonsdene? Er Fred ? Fred No. Fred . No, Jack's not very well. Well I helped you one year Oh yes. cos there was only Yes. there was only you and somebody else. Well the year I was chairman. Th the, er the year I was wi I was chairman, we were both there. There was one child came up about seventeen times Oh yes! I think. Erm, down, it was down here remember? I know. That was the year the oranges were horrible, maybe his mother was making marmalade. The only thing about er is that the Rotaract one tentatively mentioned about the . Well that's it. I mean,th tha when we took it over we, we got that, cos people said well, you know, just dishing out the oranges wasn't there should be something organized so Rotaract said they would do we said we would give the money towards the prizes. So that they wouldn't hate us. Well when er, the, the, the, there's two words, the charter, and what's the other word? There's two things to do with . Food and jar, that's right. Yeah. Well well Barlen, Barlen. Barlen and . Yeah. Yeah. I can't say that properly. Those words aren't used where I come from . And er, er Mind, I use words that Jim doesn't. the, the Rotaract er presents this year that they're towards, so he's been quite pleased. Mhm. So they'll, they'll be done. And Round Table it says, has laid on for the Well Round Table a er have never, that's the first time then? We got Well it's because, cos it's Rotaract who's always It must be the borough involved with the Mhm. But I'm er But they were keen. I mean, I, they, they've, they've, they did work didn't they? With, with the games and things when, when we were there. Yes. And it was a reasonable day too I know all the children. I mean, we thought it'd rain this year so it's more Yeah. likely to be a better day then And ee, all the kids ended up with a prize didn't they? Oh, eventually, yes. I mean,th the Yeah they they were that had bigger to ones The winners got Who supplied those then? Out of the money that we gave them. Oh! The Yes. I see, it was, and that was what Rotaract did? Yes. Yes. They had big eggs, well, you know, sort of the Aha. Smarties type egg so about so big for the prizes Ah. and the others got little Cadbury's Ah. Creme Eggs. Which remi reminds me, I've got to get some for all they spare children before Yes. well before they ran out. It's surprising actually cos th the more, the more common ones do run out because of course th the other ones are a bit pricey. The blooming Creme Eggs are on sale all the year round and then they run out at Easter. That's happened, I couldn't get any one year I took the triplets to the erm Goose Hill coffee morning in the Town Hall and I gave them all money for the tombola and one of them won a Creme Egg but I persuaded him that it would melt while he had his drink and to put it in my bag and er it was lunchtime when we got home and we were going some I, I can't remember what we were doing afterwards so I gave it to his mother, I thought she could share it. Mind, by the time you'd shared a Creme Egg between those three and their older brother Yeah. There's not much of it left. No, but I could have seen a, there'd be an almighty tantrums from the other two if Ji er Aha. James had had it. I can imagine. Mm. Mm. Is there anything much for the agenda for a week on Tuesday? Not a great deal. I mean, what I'll Yeah. do is we'll get rid of those couple of things left over Mhm. and er basically, it's, Peter's got the one coming which is er put the ducks in the river. Mm. Er, he's doing the, a, and what I'm er sug suggesting Aha. like well apparently the fella that's done it, for years, and years, for years, for years has had a Mhm. and he's, he's just ke you know what I mean, I think he's, he's getting an extension so that's why there's a bit of delay on that. Mhm. And it's where that lot meet . I've been counting them since. Well how much, I mean I read the letter in the paper. how much was he paying ? It was summat like er I dunno, it was summat like five hundred pound a year. It was quite modest. Mm. Er There were thirteen But drakes cha er chasing one duck er, just past the baths along the promenade. And then we sat at the far side of the Old Gate bridge and er an old lady came along and said, and she was counting them but she said, just look at that thing, she counted seven although, in actual fact, by then th these dra the seven drakes had stopped cha chasing the duck and they were all sitting down. And a there was a domestic one in each group there was one along near the baths in among the thirteen, and there was another white one near Old Gate Bridge. Did he cull them as well? Yeah, apparently so. Yes. Did he feed them? Cos there's there was, there used to be fe feed put down for that as well. Well, to be honest, it seems to, I Peter's got the details cos he's been talking to er, the public health clerk. Mhm. But it's, it's, it's it sort a it's, I think carrying through from the old borough days That's right. and, somebody ha erm nobody really knew a great deal about it, so I think he's been doing some research on that. That's the one paper that is a bit er maybe a bit so but th I'll have to check with the N R A because of course er, the river Mm. er policing is their responsibility. It is. They, they've not they'll not do that. No. No. But I mean,we really, we've gotta make sure that they haven't got any objections. But of course, in the meanwhile, of course we've had a flood. Yes. And it's going to kill most of the Yes. eggs wash most of the nests away I was thinking yesterday. It's bloody incredible actually! We always get extreme . Well that's, it wasn't a obviously as high as the flood twenty seven years ago. No. But was, pretty near. It was getting near. But of course the higher standards they've got no protection cos they didn't want what was offered. They didn't want a bank. Well that's right. Er none whatsoever. It was a raised footpath that was before Yeah. this wasn't it? Than, than the bridge right round. Which is what we're doing at, at the Wandsbeck innit? So we'll put a we'll put a bank in, very deliberately at the first level Mhm. erm and went right the way through with, it did look, it doesn't look bad at all, it was Yeah well no, it didn't. I mean, this looks well there's nothing else they could do here. It doesn't look il ugly, but I mean it, it it's not attractive No. but it's but, but, but they've got protection. But I mean er that one lent itself to that. That's right. Yes. Yes. It would have been ideal. But you see now of course, that was when there were River Yeah. River Authority days and Yeah. that was quite good. Erm it was quite useful er, they you could get things done, now Mm. now it's nothing. Well they just put I came along the river path when I came home from shopping. Sitting in the, the sand, damp sand under the bridge . Mm. You never saw that one that would er you know the one on the Bedford Road because Bedford Road has a Well they that's right. I mean Yes. there's nothing can be done, than the No. nothing at all. Mhm. Mhm. But er, ah, you know, it gets up into the garden but I don't think it, it's got anywhere near the house er this time, cos I was up there on Thursday and I, you could see where it had been, but it was and I mi I'd have got very worried about er But you could actually put a bag all the way and tie it into tie it into er the it's the Skillery Bridge that one. Yes, the Skillery Bridge And yeah. you just sort of tied up the Well Yes, well, that's where we'll have to go from there I think. round but There were wild rumours flying around on Wednesday, I was told They didn't want to by several people that the Skillery had gone. In But it hadn't, no. It survived. Well Jim, Jim saw the children going back to er school after swimming Oh. over it on Thursday afternoon but er But there was a lot of debris up against it, and high up against it! Yeah. So they could see how bad Was Fold Cottage flooded? It was bound to be It didn't Ann. Bound to be. I thought they built a wall around it the No. last people who bought it. Yeah, but even on that you see,yo yo you know,yo you're never really stuck with it I mean No. , once you're in the clear you really it's the silliest in the world to have a little actually. Yeah. Well this , who is must be related to David , anyway, erm they bought the house facing the o is it Old Cross, Old Gate bridge and has spent a lot of money on doing it up,li just over three million of course the whole of the downstairs was flooded today. Is that Mrs 's? Yes, that's right. The one Yeah. facing her, that's right. Yes. Aha. It's called Aubern House is it? That's right. That's right. It's Aubern, it's bigger than Aubern Place on the left. No, it's, it's not, it's called something Cottage actually. Aubern is the one round the corner. Ah. Oh! Aye, she must have lived around the corner but she was the . Cos she was only, the only one I'm thi The first one I'm sure is something Cottage. It might be Aubern Cottage but but the one round the corner the newer one, not the stone one Aye. the stone one Cos he used to live in that one.. . Yes. Yes. Yes he did. Before the . Ah. Well Stan was a he looked like Cliff Michelmore didn't he? Stan. The original Stan . Aye. And he, and I remember ah, er er, I mean I was only, well I was sort of and he had his feet up on the table, he was smoking a cigarette and he, and he had a laid back attitude. Oh yes, definitely. But we, we got our mortgage from, from the council, you know, obviously Aha. because it's our it's, Ann was pregnant then didn't smo and she didn't smoke so And I, I gave up smoking when I was pregnant. So, do you smoke? No. I don't smoke. Erm, d'ya drink? Not really. Erm, have you got any hire purchase goods? No. The, the cooker which we were buying quarterly, can't have a mortgage. It was it was the They say they won't believe that. The cooker was three pounds a quarter. He says they won't believe And he let they, you can't have it, I'll put you down as a moderate drinker. We couldn't afford to drink! We were destitute in those days We didn't know at the time, but I wasn't working Couldn't have a mortgage. and we were actually living, living below the poverty line. If I'd read erm i if I'd read properly all the instructions in the back of the er book Yeah. I would have got fo erm free orange juice, free vitamin drops Yeah. and free milk for Gareth. Yeah. But, Jim was a charge nurse. Goodness only knows what staff nurses did then? Jim was a charge nurse, it never occurred to us that we were living before, below the poverty line. Yeah. I mean, er You probably still are. I know we're Possibly. no, we're a, we're, we're we do we do live on we don't live on so much erm Ah. broth and er we used to have, I used to make big pan of broth you could get gorgeous bacon bones with plenty bacon on in the Co-op in those days, it were wi it was when they, they did all the boning in the shops and you could go, get good meaty bones and I used to I used to fill it full of vegetables and barley so, and Yeah I know. and split peas. But er it was po possibly a healthier diet actually, than we have now. Aye. Well of course, this is it, I mean you just It was quite fat free anyway. When you, when you look and you see how people survived and of course they delivered the that you, I mean like we had dripping and bread. Oh yes! Yes. That's a real, that's Terrible thing isn't it? Yes. You read books like erm Lark Rise to Yeah. Candleford and there they went breakfast was bread and dripping and Mm. It used to taste nice. Oh! I liked it. I gave my, a a few years ago when my sons were teenagers I had some nice dripping and I said, you've never had bread and dripping and I gave them some, I put a bit of salt on, I said, try this, I loved a bit of med bread and dripping when I was your age. And they took a mouthful and urgh! Urgh! Mm. And we when how old were they when we went to Whitley for a holiday? And I saw some liquorice root and I said, oh! Look Jim Right. I haven't seen that for years. I used to buy that for a ha'penny. During the war time a ha'penny for two sticks. And I got them some of that, urgh urgh! Mm. They thought it was horrible. So there was I walking round Whitley chewing this liquorice root. Just look as if you were spitting tobacco. I didn't like the locust beans though. Nah. But it And I loved a pennorth of, a pennorth of karie lick your finger and dip that in. Yeah. I know they call it sherbet now, but it's not the same, it was sort of erm it's like sugary We never saw sweets in those days . Oh well there was, the sweets were on the rationing and, and they Mm. were they very, very few to get. Was it two ounces a week we got? And that was only after the war er in Mm. Scotland anyway. That's right. Yes. Yeah. Oh yes. I used to get my, my teacakes. Well I didn't know what bananas were. I mean, I knew what they looked like from pictures Yeah. but I never No. never had a taste. Just, no, no. Well I I I obviously had just before the war but I don't, don't, didn't remember then until afterwards. I knew what a pineapple And oranges. looked like because we had erm a black leaded, no we had one of these black leaded grates, you know, with Aye. oven at the side Ah yeah. and there was a pineapple on the oven door. Oh. Yeah. The first I mean oh we, I, I got dried bana we had dried bananas Jim. Ah, but you were I was under five. You were under five. I wasn't. And my bro I was the youngest, I was just five My brother and I got dried bananas when war broke out. and we also got peanut butter because we were under five. Ah. But erm the first bananas I saw, my Luxury, is peanut butter ! My great aunt had a sho Yeah. They a fruit shop. You wouldn't touch the stuff now would you? . I like bananas. Mind you, I bet you don't touch peanut butter then? Erm just very occasionally in the school holidays erm at lunchtime I don't have many children at school holidays because apart from one of them, all of them have one or both parents who are teachers Aha. so I have Sally, and, and er, her mum always cooks a meal in the evening so I, I do something like toasted cheese sandwiches or beans on toast or something like that at lunch time, but there was one time when she wanted peanut butter and, all her brother used to ask, I, her brother doesn't come to me now, he stays at home cos he's going on fifteen, and as he's next door but one anyway, you know if, if anything goes wrong he can come along to me, but all he wanted was my homemade blackcurrant jam, and now he doesn't come any more I've got to actually give him Send some round. I give him the blackcurrant jam, I give Myrene the blackcurrant jam, jam to take home for him. He loves it! Yeah, that's right. I remember you saying. If you will be industrious. Mm mm mm. Oh I like, I qui I quite like making jam. And it would be absolutely sacrilegious to, to buy hot cross buns. Oh well. Yeah. Oh do no I Oh. No there are certain things that I just couldn't do. I couldn't buy a Christmas pudding, and I couldn't buy a hot cross bun. It, I think it's too ingrained in me from my grandmother and my mother. You know, you made your Christmas puddings, everybody had to have a wish when they stirred them. I better see if this dinner's ready. Bye. Bye. Hey, you know, talking about the ducks on the river, you know that elderly, ever so refined lady Who brought bread to feed Yes. the ducks? Yes. Yes well, that's right. I think she must have been quite well off some time, had fallen on really hard times. I mean, she told me oh, a couple of years ago that she was eighty. And, I better get this dinner out. And erm she always thought of her husband as daddy. Mhm. And her daughter I think she must have been getting on because around the time she told me that she was eighty, she happened to mention that her daughter was forty. She had no grandchildren I know, her daughter, er her daughter's not married. Well I haven't seen her feeding the ducks for about three or four months. I wonder if she's died or she's ill? She's always going to jumble sales. I know. All, all her clothes came from jumble sales. Everything. She wa she was buying, long after nylon shirts went out of fashion, there we there was a pile of nylon shirts, and she said I'm, I'm just looking to see if this if these will be suitable for daddy. I can't remember er, she gave me the reason why she wanted these for oh, he, he, he always wears his cuffs out or something. She was quite pleasant to talk to, I liked listening to her. I don't think I know her name. So, I couldn't even ask anyone. Are you ready for your dinner? I've made the tea. I forgot to put those in the freezer. I think I'll do the bedrooms this afternoon. Especially Bry Bryony's bedroom. And those begonias are doing well now. Which? Where? In the front room? Yes. How many have grown? Er Sometimes you look at them. It doesn't matter, you don't need to look. Get on with your dinner! You'll be late. Mm. There's four in the sitting room, there's one well advanced that's doi doing quite well, there's one upstairs that's just about ready for er, repotting, and there are two more that have sprouts on. Only So that's seven out of ten, was it? Oh yeah. Yeah. About seven. Well that's not bad for one ninety nine. There's erm I know they'd be, probably be better quality but there are nine, I think it is, advertised in today's paper that say, erm for er eleven ninety nine. So even, we get seven for one ninety nine, it's a bargain. Depends what they flower like though. I hope they're different colours. And how long they last. And if we Well they go on flowering for quite, you you've got No, no, I mean, how long you put Oh yeah, you'll have to le leave the children's. I know that. But if we keep them for the next ten years they're a a real bargain, if, if, if Aha. they're all no good next year, well it'll be just a an ordinary bargain. I don't think, I dunno that I wonder if we should put some gravel under that umb umbrella tree. Or if it should even be near that radiator. In Australia, you know they grow into great big huge trees in Australia, Mrs told me. Yes. She said er, Derek has them in his garden. Well it's a bit better climate out there. Well I don't know if it's a better climate, but it's a warmer climate. Well it must get hotter than it does in this house for a start! It is hotter. I was freezing last night in bed! And you were snoring. So were you. I hardly got any sleep last night, my head was aching so much. Well every night you do. Every night. How can I, it, I was on my side. Well you still snore, er you snore on your side. Ouch! Ooh they're hot! Have to close your mouth. It's a wonder you haven't got a sore throat all the time Ann. How many staff have you got off? I'm not sure, everyone's off sick. Mm. Will you be home late? I don't think so. Mm. Have you checked the television pages? Is there any wildlife programmes or anything you want me to oh hold on, I've got it here. Er When's the Messiah on? That's on tomorrow isn't it? The Messiah? And the original version from Dublin. The Messiah, the Messiah in Dublin seven forty five tomorrow. I'd like that recorded please. Right. There's absolutely nothing on on Saturdays. I hate being here with on my own on a Saturday. Well you should save the programmes you recorded and watch them on a Saturday. I haven't recorded any. Instead of Have I? wanting, get rid of them quickly. I haven't recorded any. Can't remember what I was doing. Might as well watch the wildlife programme. You didn't record them either. Oh well. Tt. Jim'll Fix it, the Big Break . Oh . Clint Eastwood film. You haven't gotta record any more of them anyway. On The Up . On The Up's a repeat. Casualty's a repeat. We never watch Casualty so The Life and Works. A writer has his work, has her works republished and proves to be something of a mixed blessing . I wonder what that's about? It don't give you much information . Film, The Marrying Kind at three twenty five. Barton and Simpson comedy An Extra Bunch of Daffodils. Well there's all these A humorous view of a wife murderer from the writers who brought us Hancock and Steptoe. Stratford John's Killer . Isn't tha these That might be interesting. That's at five past eight. what they call it? These pro is that Channel Four? Cos there's these programmes Randall and Hopkirk Deceased. Deceased. Yes. That surely must be a repeat. They're all repeats those specials. They haven't put repeat on for that. But the Channel Four they're Johnny Cash and San Quentin. I seem to remember seeing that years ago. Well if you, read it, it's these special things on Channel Four. Is that the, ah! T V Heaven. Ah! So it is. I don't remember An Extra Bunch of Daffodils do you? No. Oh oh oh! Live and Let Die. House of Fear. A spooky tale about a woman who returns to the stately which has been home to the Stafford Dynasty for hundreds of years. The trouble is her ancestors are still around . It doesn't say who, I suppose, the guests are. Nope. Absolutely nothing. Are these oh. Well they expect everybody to go out on a Saturday night you see. Mm. Or at work. There's much more on a Sunday. There's May to De December. And I like Lovejoy, except I've missed but they're repeats, but I never saw it the first time. Did we? Messiah in Dublin . Well there's no point in me watching it if I'm going to record it for you. I'll watch it with you. Blimey! He's brave. A man left paralysed from the waist down after a parachuting acce accident two years ago, attempts the World's first solo paraplegic sky dive . Blimey! Perhaps he thinks lightning doesn't strike twice. Jeeves and Wooster. Screaming Thing . Knocked quite a lot in their reviews in the papers. I like it. And I like Wed anyway. Yes, but that's just their opinion. What are your shifts next week? Can you remember offhand? Yes. I'm early Monday and Tuesday and Wednesday a day off Thursday Friday late Wait a minute. late Saturday. You're early, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday? Mhm. And I'm off And you're off Thursday, Friday. Thursday and Friday. And I'm late Saturday and then I'm on holiday. Oh. It's time you had some early. I'm early, New Years, no, not New Years, Easter . Do what? I'm early Easter Monday instead of being on late. Why? Cos somebody wan Has someone changed with you? somebody wants wants to be late for some reason. And, if we're not going to Aldershot it doesn't make any difference. Well it wouldn't made any difference cos we would have come on the Sunday anyway. That will be Easter Sunday. I know. Do we want to travel on Easter Sunday? Well the traffic's not big on Easter Sunday. The traffic would be big on the Monday. Well if it hadn't been al for all those hours and hours hold ups last time we went down I quite like travelling overnight. Especially when you get to the M twenty five. Are you ready for your pudding? Oh yes please. If it stays fine I think I'll put another load of washing in here. Thank you. I think I've given myself too much dinner. And I've got, there was some left if you wanted it by the way? If forgot. No thanks. I cooked too much. D'ya know that blue wool I got? That. Well Dorothy got er, some to knit something for Bryony and she actually got too much so if I do run out if I haven't enough to finish this er er vest, T-shirt summer top, whatever it's called she'll have some. Is that one you're knitting for Shirley? Mm mm. There should be plenty of that wool for me. I still have to stitch er, erm my cardigan up for Melanie but erm it was easy to start off the other one while I was talking to your mother. Right. .So were these dumplings okay? Very nice thank you. Well they were ma and they were made with vegetarian suet. Well they Catherine baked them. Catherine's were baked not boiled. I prefer baked dumplings anyway. You what? I've, I would bake dumplings if you liked them. I prefer them baked. I like crusty tops on them. Well with the taste, sooner have them the hardness of it. You only had a tiny taste of one. No it wasn't. You were pinching somebody else's I don't know. The Yorkshire pudding I love. I don't know. They were in the middle of the dinner when we got there. I know. You'd had yours. And you grabbed a piece of somebody's dumpling and said, oh I'll have a bite of that. And you said afterwards you didn't like it. Well I didn't care much for it. No. Well they must be better for you than an animal fat. Possibly. With all this it's a predisposition They cook just as fluffy the cholesterol you know as with ordinary suet. that's, that's the problem. What? It's the predisposition to heart attacks, it doesn't matter how well you sa stick to your diet what have you cholesterol You can have a, a cholesterol test, you know in erm I know. which chemist is it? Er Simm and Webb, they've got a notice on the window, have your cholesterol tested. Why don't you go and see? What for? Well I would be interested to see them put Well why don't you have your cholesterol tested. I know what mine is, mine was erm well below Mm. the last ti what did I have to go for? The last time I went for a smear and a blood pressure check and various things sh I, I said are you doing cholesterol checks? And she said no. Would you like one? And I said, yes I would please. Anyway, I had to ring up after two week, can't you remember? I rang up after two weeks and I spoke to the nurse and she said, oh, your cholesterol's alright. And I said but what is it please? And she said, oh well it's no it was the receptionist, she said it's fine. And I said, yes but I would like to know exactly what my cholesterol count is. So she said, oh I'll have to get the nurse. So the nurse came on the phone and she sa she said erm oh it's, it's fine it's well within the limits. And I said, but what is it? So she said it was five point four, or five point six I think it was. Why can't they just tell you? Why do you have to drag these things out of people. Well they I want to know. wanna keep these things to themselves you see. Keep it to themselves . Oh! That's stupid. It's my body! Betty's Betty has lived on they had roast beef for Christmas because they'd eaten no red meat for so long Mm. with her cholesterol, that they actually, she was so sick of turkey and chicken, and fish and er she's had no cream cakes. What else does she have? She uses semi-skimmed milk. He's thoroughly settled isn't he? No. Well, have a seat. Thank you. Oh, were you watching it? The horse race? No. No, no. Oh . I said to Paul if Alex comes and he's putting the bet Oh! Oh! gonna fall off with any . No. Cos Alex comes and he's putting a bet on, I says he'll have to put ten pence each way or whatever for me on Mm mm. over the road. Ah! Oh oh! Yes. Yes. Because I always refer Ah Norman. I, when I'm going over there, I would say, I'm just going over the road Paul. And he Have you got a chance? It's eighteen to one . I'm thinking about Tony. Oh well. Eighteen to one! And it says, it's a stayer. And is Alex comi are you expecting Alex? Well he might come. He might come. But I mean it's Anyway, talking of over the road, where is she? Is she home? No. She's in the Cottage. Still? Same ward as Mr . And has she been cleared o She's been quite ill. No. Has she? She's been quite ill. She's not, she's had a kidney er, yes a kidney infection. She's not Er er demanding to be home or anything? No she's been quite very ill. She's been very ill. Er, but she's recovered. But now she is wanting to be home. Yeah. But er Doctor had suggested to Jimmy that erm he try the new home this Friday. Oh yes. Yeah. Because they have qualified nurses apparently. Mm mm. And erm Would she agree to it? Well he hasn't dared put it to her. Well, mind, she has been quite ill, but she's recovering now. She'll say a few daft things like she always says, how's my mother? Oh! But And what does she think Oh! of this carry-on? Well I mean her mother's been dead for, I don't know how many years. Well how old is she, eighty She's eighty two. eighty two. That's what I said to her when she said it the other day I said how old are you Mrs ? She said eighty two. I says, right. How old would your mother be? And I could see the wheels turning Yeah. round, see. Then Jimmy said well you know she's been dead for many years and er she says, oh that's right. And she just sort of brushed it off. And she'll say to Jimmy erm I don't know how you're managing to look after yourself. Who's getting your meals ? Well, of course Jimmy's got his own meals for the whole of his life more Yes. or less. In fact, one of the nurses had said to Jim last night your mum said er don't tell my brother and then, then she said, your brother? Who, who is your brother? She said, I don't, I mean, don't tell my son. So well Jim said, well what is it? She said I can't tell you, I haven't to tell you ! So he didn't know what she'd been up to. Oh dear ! Oh yeah. Well the thing is, she's got nobody to talk to there you see, she's in this little four bedder Aha. all the clo and like all closed off Mm. and the lady opposite I've never been in wo in er one or two. Two. Two. I've never been in ward two. The lady opposite, erm has had a stroke but she's not exactly and she's deaf Oh yeah. so she can't hear her. Mrs can't get up to go over to her. Yes. Now the lady in the bed diagonally, she, has to be hoisted everywhere. Oh! I think she must have had a really bad stroke. Now she talks across to her, but she has a bit of a ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, and it's difficult Mm. Yes. to understand. Yes. And the lady on the other bed beside her, is erm she's very deaf. So, the result is that, that she just sits there or lies there Mm. she can't, she can't stand or anything. Who's Mr got in with him? Has he got He's right at the bottom has he got of the ward on the right erm, and er, it's like a mens' ward. Yeah. Er, at the bottom and on the right and i it's all men, and I, I, I speak to them, but I don't know any of them er, personally. Now, Mr pardon me. He goes into his riding on Wednesday Oh! cos he showed me his calendar. He says, I'm going ma his speech is terribly good. Mhm. Erm he forgets, he knows the word but he can't get it Get out. out. Yeah. And he was trying, he says I'm going to my new home. I says, when are you going? And he tried to er, to get it out and he couldn't, then he pointed to the calendar Oh. and on Sunday it says Roger comes. They must have picked the wrong Yeah. And then on Wednesday it is erm his riding and I asked the sister, I said, is that right? She said well depending how he he holds up like. Oh. She says, there's been So are they selling his house? Well it's not his. Isn't it? No. Oh! Who does it belong to? He, he rented it privately, a private owner. Mm! Because that, he did mention that he says so the next thing is the home'll have to go. You know the tears came at this time Yeah. I says, yes. I says it's sad. I said you couldn't manage on your own . No, that's why he was frightened when they did the alterations. Er, and they wanted him to move out completely away somewhere, he was frightened he didn't get back in after. Yeah. And, I think he just moved in to Muriel's next door. Yes. Yeah, that's right. And he said well He did. erm, he wouldn't leave in case they wouldn't let him back in after modernizing. Yeah. Oh well . So but erm Jimmy hasn't sort of put it to her yet. Is Doug going into the police or applying? Well he told me last year he'd applied. I know. He told me he applied but I thought he told me he'd been turned down. Well I never heard the well he had applied once before and he he got as far an interview and then he didn't get any further. But then he applied just last summer for the Metropolitan. Yeah. Cos er erm I haven't heard the outcome of that. Marie Marie was going down to her mother's she was running as usual, she dashed up to our back door and said, is Doug around? And I said, I don't know what shift he's on, is his car out? And it wasn't. Mm. And I said do you want a piece of paper to write him a message or something? And she said, no it was just that he's talking of renting his house erm and I know of someone who wants to rent one. Oh! So I said well where's Doug going? Then she said something about June and the Met. Oh well Doug wasn't here again, he never mentioned it. Or did she say he's going for an interview in June for the Met, or something, anyway. Well he's not Cos I, I haven't seen him at all. I walked up from the woods with him, came Mm. together, he never mentioned it. In fact, I thought it must be all finished with because he, he was quite talkative about it during the summer Yes. A well I remember a well I was, I was sure then I, and he said to me about being turned down. Oh! Cos he hoped, if he got into the Met and then he transfer up here. Oh! You see, like it's like 's grandson. Yes. I mean he started off in the Met er did his training and everything and then I think he's up here somewhere now. I tell you someone erm our boiler went wrong on ah, I think it was Wednesday Oh! Thursday, I just can't remember, and Raymond came through Yeah. it must have been Thursday because I didn't want him to come, I said to Jim, tell him not to come we'll just turn the whole lot off. But the kitchen was reeking of mm. fumes! And, and Oh dear! er, I could feel it prickling the back of my nose and my throat Yes. and and my eyes started to water Mhm. I opened the windows. Oh! And there was when it came on, in the afternoon there was this tremendous very loud roar! Now, it sometimes goes whoosh! Yes. When they It comes on initially Yes. And dies down. and it immediately dies down and then it's okay, but there was this tremendous roar and a loud click and it went out. And it was only about we i it was wi within a couple of minutes, or, probably less Jim came in er I think he was, I don't know where he'd been cos his day off was Thursday I think. Yes he was. And I told him about it, and he said oh yes, the pilot light has gone out and he relit it. And it was fine. It sounded okay but we kept getting these fumes. So we kept opening the door it blew out once again and he put it on again and we were still getting these fumes till about oh about half past five it seemed to stop,u we had the windows open. Mm. And then Raymond phoned at about quarter to seven. No. He didn't. Sorry! Sorry! It we he phoned at it was, it was five to six, Jim was going to take me to aerobics because of the weather Mm mm. I had my wellies in case the leisure centre was flooded! Ha. There was only ten of us there. Anyway, erm Raymond was on the phone because he was tal and I was saying to Jim tell him I don't want him to come if the ra if the road's cut off to Blythe I don't want him to get stuck, I mean, he's got a wife and two small children at home. And I'm saying, it's time I was out, I'm gonna be late . Anyway, he insisted he was coming at half past seven. And he came at half past seven and he cleaned it and he looked at it, and he said er it wasn't anything that he could see, he thinks it was just down draught, but we've had winds before. And he said that the cowl we've got on that chimney Yes. off the kitchen and ru and runs the boiler, he said it's the best kind you can get, nothing should come in there. And as he's driven up at the back then he looked up and he said you ca you could see daylight through it so it was, wasn't blocked by anything. Wasn't blocked. Erm but he said D'ya think it was the rain, maybe? I don't know. Driving wind? I said could it have been continuous rain? And he said something about he'd once they'd once had to work all one day and all one night a near the Regent Centre because er, something had gone wrong with the gas pipes because erm of flooding. Oh! Right. So whether we've but nobody else seems to have noticed anything like this. No, I, I haven't had anything like that. Anyway, he couldn't find anything. He said, we'll just have to leave it and, if it happens again we'll have to go into it further, but it hasn't happened again, so now it's okay. Mm mm. Except last night I thought what on earth's this? It just smelt like Christmas cake cooking, and I wasn't cooking anything at all. I mean Jim went to work at one o'clock and the last of the kids went home, I've had my dinner Perhaps something's melting then. at midday. But i it was no, it was no stronger in the kitchen than the living room. Mm. I sniffed around the boiler, I sniffed around the cooker ah, but when the kids went home I just had ha I had a sandwich. Mm. That's all I had, I hadn't cooked anything. Mhm. Erm the triplets had soup and stottie and I warmed that up in the microwave. Mm mm. And this smell lasted for about half an hour and then, then I couldn't smell it again. And it disappeared? It's, what kind of boiler is that you have? Er ooh! I can't remember the make. It's one of these that uses less fuel. More efficient. Well we've had it, how long have we had it? About three, four years. Anyway, how are the Well you've had a lo bother with it though haven't you? We've have had,we Well about two or three Yes. haven't you? Th the shelf with containers on have been too close, you know those Tupperware containers? Mhm. Have been too close to it and it had, and the vents at the back had got churned up with dust at one time, I keep dusting it now. Oh! Anyway, while I go Ra Raymond was here, he says, oh Alan's back. And they said, well where from? He said well he's got a transfer to Accrington. Didn't you know he was in the prison service? Is that I didn't his brother? Yes. Oh! Right. Oh! And he had to go and train somewhere down south, but he's got a he, apparently he'd been trying for a year and he's got to Accrington. Oh! Cos I thought he was doing pretty well in the Post Office, he was Mm. he was getting promotion. Once you see th there's gonna be changes there possibly. Oh! Is there? Yeah. Well maybe not wi depends, depends whoever gets in. Erm that bloody racist. It's, no, it, that's the Telecom I think, he actually worked for the Oh! Oh! Post Office. Oh! They er, oh aye. He started off as a counter clerk Right. Right. and worked his way higher up. Mhm. Mhm. Well I'm surprised that erm actually going into the police force but he didn't hear when he No. I mean it was just day before yesterday I walked up with him. I mean, last year was Oh! That's probably Gillian telling me Oh! I saw Gillian I met her round . Ee! I, you know I think I'm failing! That's the second time today I haven't remembered my Don't you know your own number? number. I want to say That's you. , that's, that's right. I just got it off . I'm carrying it over. It is Gillian. Yeah. Oh! Right. So righto Gillian. Okay. Bye for now. Bye . Well she says Michael hasn't rung so she said I assume that he's coming cos if he's going to be late, if he's anywhere reasonable Yeah. and finds a phone he rings and tells her. Erm, because I was going out for half past two and er, she rang, she says he hasn't rung yet so I assume he's going to be home. So that's alright Yeah. isn't it? I saw her briefly, and, I didn't even speak to her other than to say hello. Dorothy and I took the triplets for their nursery visit on Oh! Right. Thursday Yes. Yes. Er they wouldn't go and sit down for the story with all the other children sit at, sat on my knee on the floor for a short while. Mm. Cos, at home you see er Dorothy and Trevor always read their stories in bed, and when I read their stories I have me on the arm chair two sitting on one chair arm Yes. and one sitting on the other chair arm Yes. so that they can all see the pictures. All see the book. Yeah. So, they couldn't get it into their heads that you had to sit on the floor. Mhm. Mind, when I read their story on erm I read them on Thursday afternoon and I said, right we better practise for nursery Yeah. so I had the older ones from Goose Hill Mm. you know the when they were off school That's right. and I sat them on the floor and they sat and listened then. How old are the triplets? They're three on the nineteenth. Ah! Right. And, the other thing it took a while for u for us to get them to, they'd never drunk milk out of a straw, through a straw Oh yes . and a third of a pint bottle is too big. Yeah. I only give them half that much at a time. Mhm. Bryony especially tends to drink small amounts. Mhm. But you leave the cup on the table and she'll call you back every ten She keeps going back. minutes for a sip. Yes. Yes. But of course, they were picking the bottle up and they were trying to tip it as well . So I'll have to get some straws and we'll have to practise Yeah ! that. Aren't they bent straws or not? No, this, they're quite, they didn't th they were quite tough Yes. strong plastic ones so they they didn't chew They'll soon they didn't chew them. they'll soon fit in. And er Cos Stephanie will I know. be there. Was it morning? Yes. Ah, Jenny will be meeting Stephanie. Yes, well when we came out Bryony was difficult to start with, she didn't want her coat on. Mm. But Richard I was trying to get his on a and I, I've, I've helped two other children to put theirs on, I don't know who they were, and Dorothy says, oh we better get out Ann the teacher wanted the the visitors Away. to get out before Mm. the others came. Well, we just got out into the hallway where all these mothers were standing round and Yes. Richard threw himself on the floor screaming! Ee! He wasn't going home. Oh dear! And I was try and he,he of course he's, he's heavy Yes. and when he just makes himself flop, he wouldn't stand up. When I tried to sit him up Pick him up. to put his coat on, I picked him up and tried to carry him, and he just flung himself around so hard I had to put him down and he immediately flung himself on the floor again! Oh! Lovely exhibition . Oh! Golly! Anyway And was it because he didn't want to leave? Yes. Oh! He was staying there. And we I was I was trying to explain to him that erm we've had to go home, the teachers were clearing everything up Yeah. all the children were going home For lunchtime. because there were different children coming in the afternoon. Mm. But no, no. So I picked him up and I carried him, Dorothy had gone out the wrong door, instead of going out the door at that end she'd gone right along this long corridor And come out the main door. so I followed her and of course, we're going past all the blooming classrooms! And the Yeah. classrooms all had their doors open. Yeah. Yeah. And anyway I carried him half way along and I had to put him down Mm. I managed to get his coat on and a woman came along, I, I don't know if she was a dinner lady or what, she had a a sort of overall on and er I said come on let's catch up with your mummy, and she said, ah! Are these triplets? Are these Mhm. Mr 's triplets? Oh! Right. Aha. And I said yes. And she said, oh Mr teaches my son at school. Oh! She said, come along hold my hand as well and er, I'll tell my son tha that, that er Mr 's son took me to the door. So he shut up and listened to her. Oh! He'd calmed down tha Yeah. by then. Well I had trouble with Joshua on erm what day will it be? Erm it must have been the last day, it must have been Friday, must have been Friday. Cos usually, he's keen to go to Ron and Stephanie's. Mhm. He wouldn't get in his pushchair. He wouldn't put his coat on. Erm I finally got his coat on, and then, I said, come on we'll walk. No. No. And chuck his hat down on the kitchen floor. I said, well I'd have to go and leave you then. So, of course, he got up, I went to close the door he was there so I tried him in his pushchair, I says well you'll have to walk, I know it's only five minutes away. So Mhm. it was a bad day. So er he wouldn't move! Got so far on, he stood and he started crying and yelling and, don't want to go! Want to go home! Don't want to go! Now I used to get him along there and then he was sort of in tears but there was kids in the hall, the little hall and then when you sort come in the door, not the main door, the one, the Yes. door you're supposed to come in. The one we should have go gone in Yeah. and come out of? Well, immediately on the left there's a door an and the hall goes along by the path that you, you come up to that door. Yes. And, the children were in there erm doing their P E and er he went stood at the door and watched them and he was quite happy. And, they all filed out and the the caretaker, I presume, started putting the tables up, and the chairs for lunch Mhm. and er he wouldn't keep out, so, so in the end the caretaker got him a little chair Mhm. and sat him against the wall. He said that's your chair, now you can watch me. Well he sat there as good as gold. The only trouble was when Stephanie come out he didn't want to come home . Oh! It was difficult. It's a lovely nursery isn't it? I haven't actually been in to, I've only ever got as far as the . They've got every kind of toy and equipment you can think of. Yes. And they've got it divided up into bits with a, sort of a little kitchen. Are you still going up to start me off? Well Gillian's been on the phone Or was that Gillian? she says, she thinks Michael must be coming home because he hasn't rung her. Right. So you're not baby-sitting? Well, not that I know of. Not Aha. unless he hasn't been near a phone and couldn't ring her. Right. So, I might get a call by half past two but I doubt it. Erm and then there's one like a little living room, it has a little settee in it and chairs, you know, child size? Oh, Oh yeah. Mhm. And there's a big er water play bath sort of thing Mhm. and sand and slides and Well I know there's slides cos Stephanie talks about them. Yes. She loves it! And every kind of building brick and Duplo brick and Lego brick and Stickle brick and things. And plenty of easels and paint Aha. and er oh, they've also got books yo you know you can buy the books Oh! Yes. just just in that er, sort of little tiny lobby bit Yeah. where you turn right to go into the nursery Mhm. into the actual classroom Mhm. er, they've got books on there Oh! and there's a, a book to sign and you can borrow any book Oh! Right! then you just sign the book to say you've got it. Oh I see! No I didn't know that. And have you looked erm, the headmistress took us outside to see the yard and that looks No, I haven't been out huge there. yard with a a apparently they have er, a lot of in the summer they do a lot of er whatever they're doing out there. Practically everything they do out there, they take all the equipment outside. Yeah. Well they have like erm, sort of bogey things or something, cos I know Stephanie was tipped out of one last Oh! year. The friend was erm pushing her, and she came home with a big bump on her head Mm. and erm and that's what erm, the teacher came and said she'd fallen out of erm one of the, er I think she said bogeys or something? Because when Gillian came home, Gillian says who were you playing with? And she said Melanie. And, but she says it wasn't deliberate, it wasn't deliberate, it was an accident. So Gillian had seen the teacher Still around? Still there. Must a reluctant bride. Erm, she said oh it was just purely and simply an accident that erm Yeah. But she starts proper school in September. Does she? Mhm. Mm! Yeah, she's only four in August. Is that, you put it flat onto it Mm. it's a windproof thing. Yeah, she's only four in August. Oh yes And erm she's gonna be one of the very young ones. and she's, she's really quite small, cos Mike isn't Yeah. very tall. Now Kate Ya. takes after her mum. But Mm. er Stephanie's quite small really but, she's all there, she's, she's quite bright. Do you remember when I had erm Michael he's fifteen now. The one whose mum had multiple sclerosis they lived at Upham Pond. Oh yes! Yeah! He was only four and one week when he started school. Well, Stephanie's just going to be His birth er his birthday was the thirty first of August and I think it was, I can't remember when he started About the sixth or something it was the fifth or the sixth of September. I think it was the sixth of September. And he was I know he was chubby but he was quite short. Yeah. He looked so young. And, Joshua now goes to the playgroup at the erm Saint Aden's Church. Oh yes. That's where er I think just one day a week visiting allowed. Dorothy takes the triplets on Mondays. Right. Oh. They, they are actually starting nursery school on the fifth of May. They seem so tiny to be going five mornings a week though. The triplets? Mhm. Er fifth of that's just next month? Yes. Oh! I don't So is she going to drop them off there earlier? Yes. Er well, well she'll obviously Or have you to go there? collect them on Mondays and Fridays Mhm. and walk up, they'll get the minibus down. I forgot to notice exactly where the mi where the bus stop outside the school. They just stop anywhere. You just wait outside the gate, Gillian just waits outside her gate. The minibuses will stop anywhere, you just put your hand out. Oh! Jus erm park yourself, you know, away from the entrance Yes. erm Well I'll have to move myself away from the school gate they can just they think I'll be actually waiting That's right. That's right. at the school gate. But erm, er, they drop you off wherever you want to be dropped off and then pick you up I mean I I come down on occasions and I just stand outside their gate. Oh. Erm and I've noticed that they drop people off. They drop Jessie off at her door next door they drop somebody else two or three doors down, er, they'll stop anywhere. Oh that's fine. And they run every erm And the yeah five minutes I think it is. Mm. Their grandma said to me yesterday, have you worked out how you're going to get to nursery? And I said, well yes I'll just walk up and I'll get the minibus back. And she said, will you manage? But, I've had them on buses several times just when I, when I'm going on a bus. Well now the occasions It won't be a special treat any more once they're coming back from nursery three times a week on a bus will it ? That's right. That's right. Yeah. Erm I mean I go up there And probably when I was at half past eleven, but that's when Gillian's on doing the manager's job which is nearly twice a, twice a year. Erm Yeah. She's just like a week ago she was she did the manager's job and, she drops she brings Joshua down here for about quarter to nine, then she goes back up to Stop Hill with the girls Mm. takes them to school. Mhm. And then Paul takes me up to their house where I, usually about ten past eleven gives me time to get the pushchair put up again and sorted out and then I just walk along and pick up Stephanie. Erm so I was there, at the odd occasions when I can give you a lift up but the they'll be very odd. Yeah. They'll be very odd. And then I stay there you see. Yes. I stay there then. Aha. Erm until Gillian because she, she doesn't finish till five when she's doing the manager's shift. Aha. Five. So erm but that's only about three times a year at the most. Yeah. Have I seen you since erm I haven't seen you to talk to for very long have I? No, well I, I tend to keep away at nights when I, cos I think erm, those triplets so you must be absolutely worn out and ready for peace and quiet. Cos I know what it is myself with I mean, they're different ages but, and they're independent but it's wearing. Well it's Questions all the time. d'ya know it's funny, on a Wednesday when I go, when they've gone home and I've tidied up a bit Mhm. and gone straight to aerobics for six o'clock Mm. I feel quite fit by the time I get back, you know by the time I've done the aerobics you sho I should be feeling absolutely knackered! Absolutely ! But I'm not. I fe I fe I feel, you know Full of beans! I feel full of beans and quite hungry by then. Well I, when I come back from Stop Hill when I've been on a long shift till five o'clock, I'm whacked because their bungalow is so warm Yes. and it, really it drains. Mm. It's like Jim at work he's shattered when he comes in. Ee! I come here I sit down, I yawn and it comes to bedtime and I'm really too tired to go up the stairs. Mm. I feel absolutely, and I think thank goodness I'm back in my draughty old house ! Wha oh dear! I never feel cold in your house. Well, it's alright if, you know, if you're in a room where the fire's on, although I have had the heating on erm a few days recently because of the cold. But I was hoping it was off for good er but it didn't work out that way cos of the weather. Erm I thought I'll try and save a bit of gas this month. This quarter. But erm and I, I got my er microwave and I'm trying to save some electric. I've been doing most of my cooking with the Aha. rather than putting a big oven on. Yes. And if some, er,jus it was very thin slices of beef, topside of well I thought I'll get some beef out, and I did it in the microwave and it cooked but it was it was quite tough. I think if I'd had er no teeth I wouldn't have been able to manage at all, or if I had You might have slightly overcooked it. That's what he said. It's, you tend, to start with you do tend to erm Yeah. overcook things. Yeah. Well it there wasn't a recipe to cover just what I was doing with the I know i i it and it was just a case of erm pot luck, I would sort of brought it out and looked at it and, er no it wasn't cooked, it was cooked on the edges so I turned it over and turned it round and put it back in again. Did you let it stand? Yes. For a while after? Yes. Yes. Yeah. Before it carries on. Er it was It's like when you cook it was cooked cakes they look as if they're not quite cooked Mhm. but by the time they've stood for five minutes they are. Well Did you remember if you cook a cake and you put a piece of erm kitchen paper over the top Mhm. I don't. Oh. I, I can't remember where I got, I remember telling Beryl that a long Oh! time ago Right. Well I well before she knows well I've cooked a Someone who told me roundabout that a cake recipe time. The other thing is yes. but it was, to me, it was more like a erm er, er a sponge erm like a pudding sponge. Yes. What Er kind of a cake did you make? It was just a plain erm Victoria Oh. sponge recipe. Chocolate cakes are, are very nice if But I didn't have a proper tin. you do, brown, but use brown sugar. Yes. I made a pudding actually And u and dark brown A pudding. sugar. I that's nice and Yeah. moist. But when you, when you time when the cooked cake's finished cooking Mm. if you leave it for two minutes Mm. run a knife round Mhm. tip it up onto your hand, just briefly Mm. just for a second, and then Mhm. back a again. Yes I did. Let's the air go, and get underneath Yes. and that helps the bottom to dry out quicker. Yeah. Now someone else told me, and it worked, and if you just lay a piece of kitchen paper over the top, that absorbs some of the moisture The moisture. as well and ta and the top isn't so soggy. Mm. Well I didn't have But chocolate cakes are definitely the best. Well I did a chocolate pudding In the microwave. and it was lovely. Erm Yes. but this cake that I made erm we thought was more like a a pudding and I Yeah but they're so put jam on it they're so pale as well. and the next day it, it was sort o like a rock, well not The o exactly, but it was pretty the only cakes I make in erm in a microwave are chocolate cakes And are they alright the next day? Yes. They're a lot moister if you, if you use dark brown sugar Yeah. they definitely are a lot more moist. Mm mm. And as long as you don't over, overcook them. Mm. Mhm. And I'll tell you what I always do. But what, what do you make them in? Er, like a, a deep er flan, erm I've got these, you know the very thin microwave dishes? They're getting a bit battered now. Plastic? They're very thin plastic. No. I haven't got They're about any plastic ones. Th I got them in the electricity board, there three for sixty pence. Oh! You're only, I think you're only supposed to use them for a, a few months, I've been using them for about three years. Mhm. Mhm. Er, they've got a dimple in here and there. Mhm. But er Cos it's a, my recipe said a, a a souffle dish. Well I'd smashed Yeah. my souffle dish. But I had, I, I I never thought, I have a casserole dish which is about the the same height as the Mhm. souf I could have done it in there That might help. but I didn't, I did it my pyrex bowl Yeah. which of course, the bottom is narrower than the top. Yes. And it came right up like that Ah! Ah! and it come over the top ! These things are about so high. Smales Yeah. have a lot of microwave dishes. Yeah. They're about that wide and they're about that deep and I just put a circle of greaseproof in the bottom Mhm. don't grease them or anything. Oh, just put the greaseproof in? Ju I just lay a piece of greaseproof in the bottom. Oh! Now, I grease mine and er, I put the greaseproof in. I don't grease them I just put this I've got a pile of little circles of greaseproof paper ready cut to to fit the bottom of the Oh, well you're well organized. three dishes. You're well organized. Well I, I do I've done it for all kinds of things, I mean, I, I cook vegetables in them in it and I warm up Yeah. tins of peas in it. I warm up baked beans for the children's Yes. tea in it. Pa Paul does that. In fact, they're And I've stained with tomato soup. Mm. Baked potatoes, we've had quite a lot of baked pot I don't know why I get tomato soup with all that colour in it. baked potatoes, and er it makes lovely erm custard. Yes. Lovely custard. Er And the only thing is I haven't got a big enough jug so I have to do half quantities. I make mine, I make my, my custard in erm er I think it is it's a casserole about so wide, it's my biggest casserole. Oh right! It's in a, about It's a round one about that far across. about a three pint? Er er nearly two pint I think Two pint. it'll be. It's about this shallow Oh well, I put I found it, it, it, it seems to cook quicker. Yeah. Oh I could be using that, that Erm the last time casserole dish. I made half a pint of white sauce in the measuring jug I Mm. boiled it all over the place. The last time I made about half a pint of bread sauce, I lost half the bread sauce all over it ! Oh well I can do half a pint successfully, but I've gotta watch. Yeah, you need to stir it every minute or so. Yes. I have to, I have to watch it. Er, I can do half a pint And you don't quite well. no you know your erm smoky glass beakers Aha. don't use those in Oh no. I haven't. Nancy used one of those in it and she just lifted it out and the whole lot shattered all over Chee ee! the place. Yes. But I read you know when you make your coffee in it Mhm. Well Paul makes his in there. Give it a stir first. It's just recently I read about this it's not getting air into it or something is the reason it ex it can suddenly shoot up all over you. Oh it's in my book, yes, it can come Well I always up. I put the coffee, my milk powder, and the water in Aha. and, stir it anyway Aha. Mhm. and then put it in, and it's so far it's been okay. Well Paul makes, he does hot chocolate actually Yes. in the tu erm I di er, I only have er I only make chocolate . But mine has a, mine has a grill, I got one with a grill Oh yes. so I've cooked, I cook the Yeah. chicken in it in a casserole dish Yes. covered and then I erm switch off microwave and put it on grill and it browns Yes. erm I haven't got one of the breast. those of course. Well mine's a Moulinex. When this wears out I'm gonna I got it get rid of this one. I got it cheap at the Co-op at Lyme. I went to Argos to get this particular Moulinex. Yeah. And they didn't have it in there, they just had the the touch oven ultra erm is that on? Yeah. Tt! Oh! God! Erm and it was quite expensive. Erm, and so I said no I can't afford that, cos I sold my shares you see. Yeah. I'm glad I did, they've gone right down. Have you noticed? Yes. Erm so Paul says come on, we'll have a look in the Co-op and here they had the very same one I wanted in the Co-op and it was ten pound cheaper. Well you know when we got our Vax vacuum cleaner Yes. that was ten pounds cheaper than Argos. Really? So, er we got that at the Co-op. It was Really? a hundred and forty nine Yes. in or a hundred and forty nine ninety nine or whatever it was, I can't remember in erm Argos Mhm. and it was ten pounds cheaper in the Co-op. Well But so we got it there. this is what we found cos I said, oh There was something else, you know when I got the when I got my food processor Mhm. that was something like eighty pounds, I can't remember exactly Mhm. but for some reason we'd been to Gateshead, and I'd looked up food processors in the Argos catalogue Mhm. and the Index, Littlewoods Mm mm. catalogue and we were in Argos, I mean, sorry, we're in Gateshead and we I know I was trying to get erm a very pale peach wallpaper for, for the Oh right. bathroom to match the very, very, very extremely pale peach I know. flowers that we've got Yeah. on so many tiles Yes. and I couldn't get any. And, we've looked in Mawpers, and we've Newcastle, and Jim said let's go to Gateshead. I can't somebody had a sale on in Gateshead so we went there and then we went to the Co-op, and of course, I got the exact paper I wanted, just sort of this mottley mottley, marbly pale peach Mm mm. paper. And we looked at erm food processors Mhm. and we got the food, food processor, it was cheaper than Argos and Index Mm mm. I got a free, there was a free electric carving knife with it Oh! Right! plus, at the time there was five percent extra off erm, cos Jim's got a, a Co-op gold card Mhm. and if you got it through this gold card there was another five percent off so or something like that off. Yes. So, we got a real bargain there. Oh! You got, you got quite a few Yeah. bargains didn't you? Yeah. Oh, I'm very careful with my money. I always Yeah. check if them things are cheaper first . Well erm I do most things in it if I can. I did some pork chops er, the other day erm and, and they cooked they cooked very well. Yes. They cooked very well. Mhm. Erm That, that erm yellow ex Telecom van Yeah. that usually parked down That parks on the end of the road Yeah. is that the same one that's just gone past with it said erm snacks? I could just er say read it when it went by Oh I didn't know. in big red writing it said snacks, and one er, I couldn't make out what Whose is it? I don't know. Has somebody started up in business? I wondered if it was ? Oh ! Don't mention the ! I'd love to slaughter that child! Were you having trouble with them the other night? Having trouble? Did you not hear about when they broke the thing? Well I I went out to them, and because I heard banging, and I looked out the window and they were hacking at my fence, and I went out bu and was playing war with them when Jim crossed the road with one of them following behind and away down the street, and I thought oh! Jim must have had trouble. And He then when I was in the kitchen I saw Mr go to your door later Yeah. one night. And, I've gone out, it wasn't that was hacking my fence mind, erm, it was another boy, I didn't know him with a , and I went out and I, I and he said, I wasn't. I says, yes you were! And, that chap that lives two below Mrs , they haven't been in very long with Yes. a little dog. Aha. He came out the curtain and swore at him. And he said, yes you were. He says, I saw you! So I says, right get away from my property! And they'd hacked two or three of the erm the wood erm staves on the fence. Mhm. Now, when I came back from Stop Hill the other night, must have been, oh must have been Thursday, cos Paul erm, was going out with Alec and then they were going to Alec for dinner and when I came back one of the erm wooden staves was off here, had been prized off. Cos Paul put it on the next day. So, a couple of nights One of ours was off as well. couple of nights later, I looked down and here's three of them, boy, somebody else and another one, and one was sitting on my fence, there, so I banged on the window and said get off the fence! Erm he just, he just sat there and Mhm. like that, I said,get off that fence ! And he just he took no diving notice and they all were giggling at me. See, so I went out I said, get off my property you're trespassing! I said, that is my property and when you sit on my fence that is a, an offence! Now, I says I'll get the police the next time! Okay. So they just casually got off and walked away. I don't know who he was but he was with . Mm. I'm frightened to leave home. You had trouble as well have you? Well, Jim had just put something through Bob's letter box Mm mm. and he heard there was a crash and Martin said, ee! I've broken the glass. Mhm. And the other two, Ali and tha you know the erm, Bangladeshi boy down he plays with them. There was Ali and the and Michael . Yeah. And Jim came along and he says what did you say? Mhm. He says I've broken the glass. And he said well just get yourself home and tell your father that I want it paid for this time because I only replaced that glass last week, which he had Yeah. Mhm. he'd put it in at the beginning of the week before. So he came in and he, he, he said I'm just going down to see 's father, he's just smashed the glass in the cold frame and I'm I'm sick of this! Cos he's already stopped him setting fire to trees in the orchard over there. Oh yeah. Mm. That's awful that. He's stopped him cutting down trees. So he went down and it was Kelly he spoke to and er she said he Thank you for the parcel. Weren't you expecting this? No. Oh! You, when you rang the other night you, you did sound like Jackie , I'm sure you were Jackie on the phone, and with her not living here very long Aha. Thought it was thought me. I thought she'd just er you know, she was worried about her children cos as usual they'd left the keys behind, they were the house. Ah. Yeah. Oh well, if you don't know. There again, it's gonna be, it's something like, that said it was forty four days and suddenly I thought, bugger that! I'm going . Forty four days? Aye. Oh. Oh well. And I thought bloody hell . Don't be daft. Are you going to get to pay your debts with a pan No I've got in your hand ! Ah no, this is, I'm just getting us a new pan. Say, a big one, over the road they normally have it. Oh! Erm You know my bathroom tiles are coming on Tuesday. Mhm. Right. I mean the bathroom's not yet done, it's still not a of paper one side. Oh. Well then, while Once you got you can you've gotta got sell out. Yeah. Yeah. I was up the street and got the building society here. We want some erm er, what they call them? Quarry tiles Aha. you know to step down into the kitchen. Yeah. I would like some quarry tiles on there, but we can't get any of the narrow ones, they've got a curved edge. Mind, I'll have to go buy one cos I've seen them in Newcastle. In Wroxons I get my plants and they've got them cheaper than . Well they told, they, they told us that we couldn't get i they couldn't get us any No. with a curved edge. And I don't want the little ones tripping up and crashing their heads on a Oh I see. Mm. And, and in the corner where the door is there's a hole in the step underneath the the door hinge. Oh! And er James, triplet he's pres er pushing bits of paper and I should imagine there's pens and crayons and all kinds down there. The only thing you could do is get the, you know that kind of plastic edging you can get for wall tiles Yeah. with curved put a bit of that in. That Yeah. would take the raw, the raw edge off. Aha. It will curve it down. You can get them in the square ones, the six by six, but I wa I wanted the way we worked it out, eight by four would work out more economical. Aha. Cos eventually, I wouldn't mind the kitchen having quarry qua quarry tiles. No I don't like them. I like quarry tiles. Right. See ya! I, the, I wonder it's for? I don't know, it's been, I went along to ask Betty and Paul if they knew . It's been there since before half past one I think. I was putting the washing on at the back and I saw the en the bit sticking past the house. It's that fella the probably going to a wedding. I think it must be a, I think it must He's got it be a driver. He can't, he can't be actually at a wedding because She can just pretend it's her new car. . Oh yes! We can dream! Bye. Hello. Why's the door off the latch? Oh! Oh! Mm. I know what it was erm the Empire Stores' man brought a parcel for Jackie when she was out and when Yes. I took it along to her, to save me locking myself out I put the sneck up. I must have forgotten to put it down when I came in again. Well I'd better go and lock the door. That was hours ago. Didn't know if you were in or not. Well I'd hardly be out if the door wasn't locked when it's dark. Yes, but it seemed so odd that the door was standing open. Ooh! And there was Was the inside door closed? Yes. Mm. The inside door was closed. We haven't got any Yeah. of next door's cats upstairs then? No. No, no cats could get in. Oh ! Have you had a good day? Well it, it depends what you mean by a good day? It's tiring. Heavy . Why? Did you have any deaths? No, no deaths thank goodness. There's a lot of poorly people I'm afraid. Oh. But they're all alright tonight. Not expecting any deaths yet. Yet. Mm. Had enough for this week. Right. I'll get you something to eat. Thank you. Are you hungry? A bit. Alright. Well it's now, I'll just warm it up. Okay? Thank you. Yes. Ah ! Was Jackie in? And so you took the parcel? Yes. And she gets any, a lot of parcels that woman. She must be the best, one of the best customers they've, she, they've got. Yes, but she's got all the erm she's got hundreds of well not hundreds, but she's got a lot of customers, I mean, she works in huge offices doesn't she? Yes. It's the biggest erm fraud er o well civil service outside London. Yeah. Right. There was erm what I thought was a, a white Rolls parked outside our house when I was putting the washing on the line just after you went to work. Erm well I've gotta wash the dishes. I was with, and it was, I could see it at the front. Oh! Er, it turned out it wasn't a Rolls it was a Bentley, but I don't know one car from Oh yeah. another. A It's still a rather classy car. Yes. Well it looked like a wedding car cos there were bouquets in the back. Mhm. And, Paul was working on his car out the front and I went to ask him if he knew who was getting married. And er he said it had been standing there for quite a while. He thought it was maybe just er the driver had taken someone to the church was waiting to go back for them. And er Betty called me in for a cup of coffee but and I was there, I think, for over two hours. Tt. I didn't mean to stay that long cos I had a lot to do. Anyway, it was, it was still there Like what? it was still there when I took What do you mean you had a lot to do ? Like what? Housework! Why? It was still there when I took Jackie's parcel to her and it wa I, I think I didn't look out the, the window till about five o'clock and it had gone then. But Betty Well , 's a taxi driver. Yes. And tho erm Betty thinks the er the for do er cars as well. Mm. Yes. See if it is hot enough. Thank you. Has that just come through the letter box? No it came before. Oh. I'll make you some Yes. coffee. Yes, it's hot enough thank you. Right. Is it raining? I suppose it is. I don't know if it is. Well the back wall looks wet. Well th there was no rain on it when I came came here. Must have su must have suddenly started. It is raining. I got the washing nearly all dry anyway. All the shirts. I didn't it was so bright and windy so I put another lot in after that lot came out it'll be, only be T-shirts I'll have in the dryer when they finish off. Well these poor blighters who got flooded who could do with the wind to dry the houses out couldn't they? Yeah. The er The what? I delivered those leaflets this morning in Auburn Place the house at the end Which one? the one that was flooded, the one that was The one facing onto the bridge? Yes. That er Tess bought and they did it all up. When they told me at work she'd bought that, I was, cos they lived up at Green Lane I thought my God he'd have they've picked a a bad spot there cos there's no flood protection at all there. And in fact, when the river rises they it drops down onto that house, and the house next door. Anyway, I saw that everything was up, the doors, the back door was open, the front door was open there was everything up from downstairs and must be awful. Well I saw the curtains were down erm when I took the triplets all around there yesterday, the curtains were down and it looked as if there was a table piled up with cardboard boxes in the, in the front window. There was. Well there's, it was er there was a table. And a house further along in Abbey View there cos i and it was four houses actually in the The one on ? No. Th the one just past the social club? No not that one. Well that one, I wa I, I delivered there. But, no, about three houses on from that they were decorating. Now, it looked as if they were newly decorating so whether the water got into there or not, but it didn't look as if they were in the process of decorating so I hope it didn't for their sake. Well, that one on the cor the first one Aye. That's the one that appears on television . That was the one that was on television with the water right the way Yeah. up it. But further on, you know er, what they call, the teacher lives? Brian ? They've got erm sort of walls in front of the houses, right next to the, the bay windows with erm with the slot, where they, they slot in these steel erm, plates. Have they? Yes. Oh yes. About two or three of them, they have, at that end. I never noticed that. Yep. With erm and they had sand, they all had sandbags along there, but they had these sort of er walls built up. But I mean th they're decorative walls, they've got plants growing in the top and this sort of thing, built up to the, about the level of the window Mhm. and er then they have the gap for the path and they have a, erm a steel plate. Because when I went up I had to climb over the steel plate. Cos they hadn't removed them. Mhm. Even though the water was all down. But erm Have they done the that themselves? I think so, yes. I think so. Yes, cos they're not the same. I mean each each house is different but er there's not all of them have them, there's only two or three had done that. And that was at Brian 's end. The ones And he, he is the very end one isn't he? I dunno if he's er, but it's his end, I don't know if it's his house, I can't remember if it was his house, but at that end of the street. Didn't he buy the one that we looked at, once? We did look at one there. I can't remember. I don't know. But in any case, erm th the end house hasn't got that up it's oh, what they call her? Rosie? Rosie . Her house has. And the house next to her, on either side, those are the three houses that have got that on. I've never seen Ro Rosie for years! I know, she's working erm Well her husband was very ill wasn't he? at the workers' education what is it called? W E A? Workers' Education Association. She works, she works for that. Does she? Oh! Erm What doing? Does she lecture like? Yes. I think, yes. What subject? I can't remember, but there was a whole Well it can't be in Moorford because the only thing that No it's at Ashington. the only thing they do in Moorford is birds. Ornithology. No, erm I'm sure it's in a, at Ashington. Mm. And Well I've never seen it advertised. They do quite a, they've got quite a big programme in Gosforth and Newcastle and I'm not sure. I think Whitley Bay I think as well. I think I think I heard Jean say something about erm the writers' workshops. Mm. I'm not sure if she said tha that Rosie had, had given them a lecture or something once, then I said oh! I know Rosie quite well. There's your coffee. Thank you. Thank you. That was very Was it hot? nice. Thank you Was it very much. hot enough for you? Yes, it was hot enough. It looked as if it was. Well I don't like it too hot,ever. Pardon? I don't like hot food ever. Oh I know, you're like my mother, stone cold! I don't like it stone cold, I just like it nice, cos if it's too hot you can't taste it. Try to get it down me before it burns my tongue! These folks and that with all these spices and things a you can't taste the food you taste I know. the spices. Cos that's what it was all about,tas take away the taste of the rotten food, that's the whole point of spices. I know, I think it's hilarious! Asdir erm saying my ginger wine was too hot. Was too hot. Bloody ridiculous! When she's used to eating red hot curries But they don't drink red hot stuff I suppose. I suppose that was the difference. They don't drink red hot stuff, they drink,only eat red hot stuff, and they drink cool things to cool their mouth down after ! She drinks tea. Yeah. Well she she used to drink tea when she if I ever well I didn't invite her in for a coffee do, well I didn't to begin with did I? Well they drink, do they not, does she I mean not drink coffee? No. I invite, when we walk back from school erm when she first came to live round there, and er I used to walk back from school with her sometimes and say, would you like a cup of coffee? Well she didn't know anybody of course and she'd say, no thank you . And then after oh, after a few weeks she said I'll come in for a cup of tea. So I said, okay. So I used to make tea for her. And it got, in the end, actually, if I was, if I had to do something that was urgent or I had to go somewhere I used to have to say to her something like, you know, erm oh I better get on, I got a lot to do this morning, or I'm goi I've to be shopping and be back in time to cook Jim's dinner or something like that cos he's starting, oh I've gotta have his dinner ready at twelve before he goes to work and if I really was pushed otherwise she would have come in every day. Not that I minded her coming in every day, just didn't, not always that time. Aye. I wonder how they're getting on through there? And also, if she came in when I had the triplets it meant that erm you know, she was sitting talking to me when I wanted to be playing with them and taking them out and getting on with doing things with them. They still haven't sold the house have they? No. Well I was just talking about that today to Betty. You ar di didn't you see it? Didn't you show someone round it once? Yeah, I've shown two lots of people round. Did you notice the bathroom ceiling? Yes.. I only saw it erm you showed two lots round didn't you? Mm mm. I did. I only showed er, Gillian I didn't show them right u opened the house and was stood with them, walked round with her like, you know, but breezed Well actually the time I went in it was erm when Gillian was thinking of buying it Oh aye. and er I went her mother and father were with her and I just really went in up and down the stairs, and they went upstairs and they, they shouted, oh Ann! Come and look at this. And er in the back I think it was the back bedroom there was a, a light switch and the wiring was sort of hanging from, from the switch. It looked dangerous! Mm. And there was there was something weird. It wasn't a telephone point I don't know what it was. Television point? No, it came from half way along the hall, up under the stair carpet and into the erm front bedroom, but it, it didn't have a, a sort of, you know the Yes. Aye. it didn't have a telephone, sort of attachment. And the bathroom ceiling was black mould! And of course, if it, if it had been I know they came once because Who came? Well, Syrej Oh. dropped Asdir off and she drove away and I saw her and the four children go, along to the house Mm. cos I was in here and er I think she had some paint in her hand Oh. and after about ten minutes I thought what the devil is she doing in there! No, she only had the three children, erm Asthana wasn't born. That was it. Yeah. I thought, what's she doing in there? Tha that's right, she was pregnant wasn't she, after Can't be. Asthana wasn't born when she left here. That's right, she was . Mm mm. Well surely she was born when . No,go well perhaps it wasn't long after Asthana was born. Anyway, it was, it was in the winter. Erm Is it two years now? Oh I can't remember. It is, you know. I think Asth Eighteen months old. Two Christmases. No,Januar . Janu It's two Christmases anyway. it's January the seventh. Asthana's birthday, she must be two. No, no, no, no, she's the . Oh! They moved before Christmas. I know it's two Christmases. Aye. Well, whatever. And er well that might have been it,A Asthana might have been a tiny baby. So I went along there cos I thought if she was painting the children will be frozen and nothing to sit on and no Mm mm. heating. So I went down, and she was, she was painting the bathroom ceiling. And I said er, I'll take the children back to my house with me, at least they'll be warm, I can give them a drink or something. So they came back but of course, if it's jus if it's been pouring in on that bathroom ceiling again it's, it, when I took, when Elsie called up to me, come and look at this, the bathroom ceiling was black mould! It wasn't black when I showed those people round, but it was damp. You could see Oh no. the stains of the damp. Perhaps he's been and washed it off again. Sometimes when he comes Yeah. through. Aye. But nobody, how long is it since the last time we showed them in? It's quite a while now. I dunno. I can't remember when it was. And the key's still on our kitchen windowsill so Yes. Yeah but look at, the amount of houses that are for sale. Oh yes, but but look how quickly Marie sold hers. But it was in a better state. Better condition wasn't it? Oh it was beautiful! I know. Aye. But I mean, there's a lot of houses for sale. Some of them are sold quite quickly. There's some new people in number ten is it? I don't know. They park their car just beside Doug's house. I don't see them very much, they tend to use the back door, and sort of come out and then go down Mm. the back lane. I don't see them come round the front. You haven't drunk your coffee. Did you see your mother? Yes. And she's complaining about not going anywhere or Ee! The places she's been in the last couple of weeks. Yes. She's If she could only remember where she'd been and how much she's enjoying it while she's actually doing it. Aye. Cost me a fiver for her hair to be done on Monday and another fiver to go out on Berlin Square on Tuesday. And tomorrow, she's going to this thing at the chapel. Going for tea. What thing at the chapel? Going for tea and then for the service afterwards. Mm! Oh yes! So they're going about four o'clock. I'll have to go earlier to see her because they'll be maybe getting her changed for that. Aha. Karen came and asked me I says alright. Have you got to go? And I said yes. Mind, she didn't go out this afternoon cos they went, some of them went up to the British Legion Club this afternoon. Didn't she want to go? Or wasn't there room? I don't know. She were up sick all night, but I don't think she, she would have wanted to go anyway. The erm you know the rather large lady that, who I always speak to? Er, yes. In the last bed there. Yes. Er, she'd been up there sometimes . She's really enjoyed herself because tipple . What had she been drinking? She likes her whiskies. Oh. A couple of whiskies. Yeah, she said it was really Well your mother wouldn't want that. I know. And it was she who told me that she'd been, that's where they'd been. And she remembers everything. I know. Aye. Your mother doesn't remember where she's been as soon as she's, gets out of the minibus. Yes, I know. Tt! I mean, and she, and Well I was just thinking she asks the same question over and over again. looking at those well it was Denise who brought the list in, but I'd already with the sta er the gardens but, you know the garden scheme in Northumberland. It's lying around somewhere. Aye. And I thought you might want to go some time anyway er, not on a Sunday. But there's one at Blagden Hall. Has she got her colostomy bag back on yet? Or are they still leaving it off? I don't know. How do they take her anywhere if she's got the bag off? Must, well that's you out. Well, I was thinking we could perhaps take her to Blagden Hall now that's open. Well supposing you, if that's okay. I mean Anyway, they're having it's it's one thing being in a hospital but to take her somewhere it depends, it depends on the weather. enclosed is It depends on the weather of course. not very fair to her. So that, I mean that's I'm a half day that day. I think I read that Blagden was open from half past It's open from one till half past three or something. Well that's, no, it's been Or was it half past one, where did I put it? Was it half past one to dusk. It's just there. That's it there. It's not much It's later. It's my half day on the, that Sunday. Where is it? I don't know where it is, I haven't marked Well you've got so many piles of papers lying around! They're not mine there, those are all yours! Here it is. Here it is. Here it is. Where? I've got my glasses on, I'll do it, I'll read it. .You can't see without your glasses. I can't. There, Blagden, there. It's at the top. Where? I've marked it at the top. Some time Oh yeah. in May. May the what was it? You ca you can't see it. I can't see at oh right. Well I can see there alright. Wait a minute till I switch on the other light. I'll tell you it's It's cos it's written on blue paper in tiny print. it's the third of May. Daffodils and arboretum And there's a coffee bar. products, plant and cake stalls. Suitable for wheelchairs. Well that's what I was thinking. Toilet for disabled. Yeah. Tea with home-baked scones and cakes. Open from one till five . Mhm. It still isn't a lot of time if you finish work at quarter past three, and you're not home till I'm, I'm a half day, I finish at twelve. Oh! Oh! Right. Oh that's okay then. I was just thinking if we take her out that afternoon. Sunday, May the third. In fact, I was there's a I'm going to suggest that we, we take some of the patients er and early about when is this? It's in June. Well do you want to go take some of the other patients that day and I'll go as an escort? Well on the twelfth of June my Age Concern are having er, a fair at Blagden Hall, all day that day. On when? The twelfth of July. So on Hazel's birthday. No, that's twelfth of June. Twelfth of June, your Hazel's birthday. What's the twelfth of July? I've no idea. It's the twelfth of July is last year the er Fourth of July's Independence Day. it's the twelfth of July of last year they had one. No, that's the fourteenth of July. I don't think anything's the twelfth of July. No. It's the fourteenth of July is Bastille Day. But, anyway And what are you that day? I'm on early. All earlies. Ordinary early? Quarter past three early? Oh, well, I say I'm on early but I will be, I could be an early or a late. So that's So if you took them that day you'd be going while you were on duty? Well, for pa most of it or part of it. But I could organize that. And, if what they call it? Is that a Sunday at Easter? It's a Sunday. If they can actually let me know whether that bus is available or not You're not gonna drive that bus are you? I didn't say I was. But, Mr has got a P S V licence. I don't know if I can drive Oh! the bus or not, it depends we'll have to see. And does he, does he drive the buses? Er, the hospital bus like No. that? No. No. He's never driven. He's not down as a as a driver for the minibus now. But he's got a P S V licence which is a different thing altogether. Yes, but, if he was willing to drive in his spare ta time, he would have his name down surely? Wouldn't he? Well one would have thought so, but I said to er Mrs you see, about the minibus, no not the minibus, the M S bus being available and, I said the problem was or maybe that we'd have to have drivers who have had a P S V licence, or what they call it? It isn't a P S V license now, it's very different type of licence. Well whatever it's called. But it's the same thing. Yeah. And she said, oh my husband's just renewed his. So he could drive and so there'd be no problem she says. But he's never ever, as far as I know offered to drive the minibus. Does he work? Well It sounds, it sounds odd saying, oh my husband's just renewed his, it makes it sound as if he hasn't had a P S V erm licence for a while. I don't know. Cos if he was working, and driving he wo it, surely he would have automatically renewed it? I don't know. So it sounds as if he's just renewed it after a while. They used to have some sort of test on that . So maybe that's why he's never volunteered before. If he didn't have the licence, he couldn't. Well yes, of course. Except, he could have for the minibus of course. Where's my knitting gone? I think he had a pet shop. Well he wouldn't need a P S V licence for a pet shop. But, I don't know that he does now. Unless you were a Pet Shop Boy and were a roadie. Mm mm. I can't remember what line I was doing. Well because she periodically brings the bird seed for the the bird on the ward. I'm sure he never . Whether the business was successful or not. I had a vague recollection somebody said he had this pet shop at Blagden or som not Blagden er Blagden? There are no shops not Blagden at Blagden. Bury. Oh. Mhm. But we could still take the minibus and just take three or four. Yeah. Well that's an alternative. But that will be a good day to go out on. Mm mm. But we could take my mother on the other one. Yeah. Or we could take them periodically. Could go out, well the next then there's a queue a mile long. I said no. I said mark the ones on that thing. you want to go to. That's when I It's a bit far to take her to near Berwick. I wasn't thinking of taking her there, I was thinking of taking you! Oh. Anyway, it might be too cold. And Corn Hill on the Tweed's a bit far for you my love. I was thinking about There's Anwick cos you Howick at Anwick. I was thinking of you going there. Where's Hallington? I dunno. It tells you. Does it not? Oh! Wait a minute. Between Colwell and Kirkharl. Mm. Etaul Manor's open nearly every Sunday. Wasn't it Kirk oh no it was Katheaton. Was it Ka Where Capability Brown Yeah. came from? Yes. That's right. We never did find his house did we? No. If there's any And there's nothing there ! if there's any remnants of his house. There was certainly no indication of it anywhere in the village. There wasn't even anybody to ask! Nope. But if you wanted to go to any of those, those I marked for my days off, apart from the one to Blagden on a half day. But I could go that day. Cos it's no distance to Blagden. The others we'll take We could walk there. Tt. Aye, it's three mi it's over four miles, it's I haven't got the street map, it's about four miles. Well we took your mother and we that time. Yeah. Perhaps we'll get the bus there. And then, in those days there was a bus service that way. I don't think there's a bus service running that way now. Isn't there? Nope. To get to Well how many houses are on that road? There's only Well there's a fair number. Actually on the road itself there's well there is a fair number. There's quite a few in the estate itself. Quite a few houses down Yeah. the estate. Tt. Did you tell me what did they call the one who lived there? That worked with you. Near the road there? Yeah. Di She got . Oh that's right. Where is she? Well er, she's at home, or she's in the erm R E I I used to see her in the hairdressers sometimes. while the death is being investigated. And she she went into the R E I, with a query stroke. I know. I remember that. A query I think she had a query lump on her breast or something, er lump or something. And they transferred her to the, the Cottage and she did quite well, and she was home. And whatever lump it was they said wasn't anything to worry about. But then it was virtually er clear again, she was saying but she has a brain tumour. And whether they can operate . Mm. Oh dear. She was nice, she was a nice woman. But he retired early, of course, because of his bad knees. Mhm. He couldn't well he was the head gamekeeper for Lord . Yeah. And er the dampness and the tramping all over the rough ground and what have you, wasn't good for his knees. Mm. He came from all over Macaw or somewhere down there he came from. Mm. Didn't know that. And when he came out of the army you know, after the war er he didn't want to go. Well, I think, I don't know if they went back to the pits and sort of left, but he didn't want to stay there and and got this job as a gamekeeper . . He had a stroke. They say that if you, if it wasn't for the shooting we wouldn't have any grouse or pheasants cos they wouldn't be preserved. they they'd be on a farm if he wants. The grouse apparently it would. I nearly stood on a grouse once, when we were walking up I wasn't walking with you, it was when we were with the Footpath Society. Got the shock of my life! I was walking along talking to Mika I think and it just shot up from in front of me, I had my foot out. It waited till the very last second. Mm. Well that's I couldn't believe it! Perhaps it decided to stay put and I wouldn't notice it was there and maybe at the last second it decided it would run for it! Well we nearly when I was up with the children at the to when I was Mm. and it went up into those they were coming down in the minibus and er we stopped so the I can't remember where we stopped. Anyway, it was a good job we did because these erm these grouse and these chickens, I mean, they were so blended in with the the, the roadside you could hardly see them, and then they moved. As we were coming down so slowly, and I think we stopped suddenly cos then they walked across the path. You couldn't, you co you couldn't see them when they were on the roadside, you know on, on the whe when they moved Mm. onto the actual track like, so Mm. And Joy got the red squirrel so, at er when I was out. Well Edith told me that erm Or was it Kenneth saying? as soon as she bought her house do you know which is her house? Yes I've been to it. What did you go there for? To deliver something for you. Oh maybe, a Christmas Can't remember what it was. card it would be. Cos that, the, you know the le But that's not where we saw the red squirrel. you know at the left hand side of her house they've planted some trees. That's out the back there. Yeah. But there was already no. It's at the oh! It's out the back. No, the back of her house opens has erm Goes out onto the spri the spring head itself. The back of her house, the back garden erm, faces onto a field. There's the fence Mm. o over the fence from that, er, the back garden is the field, but That leads over to the other side of the house. but to the left of their house, when you're facing the front door to the left Whe you mean when you're outside the there are some trees or inside? Outside. There are some erm trees there Mhm. there was already quite a few trees there, it was like a small wood and they've plan and Well it is, that is. they've planted some extra ones. I think they've planted some That's the spring . fruit trees. It's a huge garden! So they've got a But we were wood in it I know but up there but from the time they moved in she noticed red squirrels. Oh we didn't walk that way, we went up further down. And erm I think she said she'd seen a badger as well. Well it's quite possible, yeah. In the from there onwards, you know,we there's nothing. No. You know,a after those houses Yes I mean, that's right. th er the, there's fields until you get to the Irish Sea, int there? Just about. Well yes. But there's a few odd houses, a few odd villages, which are only small, but there's nothing much really. When you re walk, going west it's countryside all the way. Mhm. Well She's gone to California, Edith. Has she? I met her erm On holiday? Yes. I don't know if she's gone alone or with some, or with a friend, but er she said she wanted to, she'd never been to California and she wanted to go before she was too old and crotchety to get there because David's he's in no fit state to go anywhere any more. So why, what So she asked, she asked if sh her sister-in-law cos Sheila's living er near her daughter. And did er Well,so Near Berwick or something. and somewhere near Berwick, yes. Ladyki no they moved from Ladykirk into Berwick I think. And Sheila, erm Mustn't forget these. Oh, your glass where've you, have you picked your glasses up? Got me glasses up yes Seeing as you frequently forget them do you want some posters for Gordon and Adam, well I can only lend you a couple of ones, but those might do if she turns them over What? those there, cos those are the ones I had for the European elections Oh So did you say the yellow leaves on this umbrella tree are due to If they're not, if they don't, if it doesn't get sufficient light, the leaves turn all green Green, right, so in actual, so that would it's proper name's erm, er Schefflera Schefflera Schefflera something like that so those have been getting plenty of sunshine, light Yes and those haven't if it's been standing on the floor though, only the top leaves would, I don't know what to do about having it there though, that's right above the radiator, it'll dry it out that's, that's why I said Well that's where the first one was do you think we should stand it on some gravel in the saucer there's plenty of gravel You can do you can do oh I'll go and put some in after, when you've gone to work but that's where the other one, that first one stood, remember when you first got it? Yes, but when we first got it the radiator wasn't on it was the summer time Oh it was erm it was bought for us in July ah July oh can't remember which July well it still lived on there all the time It didn't, we took it in the front room there it is Schefflera,Scheff S C H E F F L E R A I said I thought it was that Schefflera well I'd put that along in case it that Why? Cos that came out of the old one Well put it on the draining board and I'll wash it and then put it back Right, I'll see ya tonight Mhm, mhm Tarrah mm, bye It's okay, it's just, let's get me bag in, thank you Your son's got more sense than me, look I've put a coat on I'm sitting here sweating I've got a T-shirt under this Oh I've got a thick huge long jumper. I've got a big thick sweatshirt on and underneath I've got a polo neck jumper on an'all and foolishly put a coat on I got this yesterday, it's Tetris Hang on a minute, let's see, oh very nice why did you get that? you have to get as many lines, I got it er, in August in Ireland Aha, I should have this seatbelt fastened shouldn't I? Yes you should, what's that shop like there? Is it any good Ann? I looked at, it looks a good little shop does that I don't know, I mean unless you it's a daft place to have an antique shop isn't it, where there's no other shops? Well, it's a long way down I know this erm It's, it's it looks like they'd have lots of good stuff in erm some of it is, but I mean, some of the things like that washing machine from about Oh aye nineteen ten by the look of it mm and the great big photograph of Queen Victoria but they do have some nice things in, some of the crockery was quite nice Expensive though isn't it? I don't know, I've never been in it, I've just looked through the window and then they've got junk, I mean that, that er And they've not got prices on them neither that erm modelled bull Aye well that's some well somebody might like it someone's obviously brought, obviously brought from Spain, from a holiday, who wants a secondhand bull from Spain ? People Aha people collect strange things I suppose they do yes I've get er, erm Coronation cup yeah if I get it, it's up in the loft somewhere though, it's a king, it's a fat king with a beard George the fifth and it's like, er is it like, erm really, it's relief that's the word yes in the bottom of the cup, it just when you hold the cup up to the light, the picture comes through, you know it's, the shape and the colours come through when you hold it up to the light ah you see, you see after you see you never find any I've got some Coronation mugs somewhere, I've got some that er my grandmother had That looks a nice little house there, across there, it looks a big house actually Right next door to the pub er handy aye it's got a very, very old oak staircase in that house because erm Been in? Er, no, there's Joanna one of the girls I look after and er Rebecca who lives next door to me, erm some friends of ours years ago were going to, were thinking of buying it, it was about five thousand pounds then, so it shows ya how long ago it is er, but it needed quite a few repairs doing to it just from a quick glance it looked like it would need some er work on it it had one of those it had, erm one of them cast iron baths you know in the middle of the bathroom with the sort of er curly legs, Queen Anne type legs on it Remind me that they said it was very nice, but, the, they reckoned then it needed about another five thousand pounds spending on it Just think you'd be laughing now if they'd spent that five grand on it Oh yes, yes Shall I get out my side? Yes, lift the seat up then please Chris What is that? Ann do you want a smoke before you go in? Why do you? I've got some in my bag actually Right I'll show ya, here are shut the door and I'll lock it Close the door so your mum can lock it cannot lock that one and then it's opened again Oh, our front passenger seat won't lock either, you've got to lock it from the inside, ta Now watch this cos it's er, fairly takes your head, ears off, get it in an angle away from ya up here, that'll do ya Thanks, can you stick that in my shove it, shove it in my bag Tell her please can give the services in the church, I knew they'd be on today because it's the first Sunday in every month Are you invited for tea every time? No Oh so I wonder if she's going down the, well she might be down for the service now What? We can hear you , hmm, erm Do you want a Polo? No thanks Chris do you want a Polo? Erm, erm, yes please I don't, I'm going the wrong way, I'm going the way when I go with Jim the quick way we can't go that way when we're not staff I should have explained, I should of told them, I never thought Mm, mm, never mind funny I thought Probably Well if the Witnesses have their way then be the end of the world before they all Look at these crocuses mine are all They're beautiful aren't they? mine are all dead. I think they look gorgeous growing out like that Ours are yellow ones They do, ours are finished mind they get more sun here than they do in erm, or in, or even though the ones in the front garden are, they're dead, and they get lots of sun, the ones in me tubs and cauldrons and stuff in the erm in the back, don't get so much sun You got your knitting? Of course, when do I go anywhere without me knitting? wait till I put this in the bin oh I want to sneeze again stand on it there we are News Post Leader down there, we didn't get one this week No that's pile of them we got neither of the free press this week Did you get the free Journal? We did a few weeks ago Complimentary one for about a week trying Yeah that's it all these extra benefits you could get nobody well I read the free one for the week and that was it Well we get the Journal anyway Oh, have you pressed the button? I don't know if it was pressed or not, hello Hello hello hello Hello hello, hello hello mum, oh what,glasses clashing together I've just put the kettle on You've just made us a cup of tea have you? just come Oh go get these stools around if I'd got here a minute quicker I'd got you some chocolate biscuits you could of been having with that cup of tea er Where's Jim get them chairs from? He gets them out the day room I think are allowed? I dunno he just gets them well if there's, if there's not many people sitting in the day room, perhaps we can pinch one, all the stools seem to be taken there aren't many spare in there, can we pinch a couple of chairs please? Er, the stools all seem to be taken er there you are, are you getting one Chris? Yeah Can you carry that? Thank you, yeah Thank you they're all watching the Sunderland match, can you hear them? On that television Chris Ha, I thought you'd gone I thought you'd done a runner and run away Absconded right I'll get Is this some washing? Yeah I'll take it I'll take it It's alright, I don't mind me mum in a couple of days I can see them there where I can seem them, so I can, there's you, biscuits mum But you Have you lost something? No Do you want to bring your chair forward a bit? You okay? Come a bit forward we can't hear you, I can't see you Stand up yeah be over in a minute I'll do it I'll you stand up and Pat'll pull it oh ee Okay then, a couple of steps forward Two steps forward that's it, hard work right getting up, standing up right Fine There's your tea back can you do that quietly? Finished that one then, the next one eat it quietly so it doesn't bother people Have you got your knitting? Yeah I didn't have any, I finished that one for her Yes erm the peach one? yes Er that one I've just got the buttons to put on and I didn't have any wool and I thought what shall I start knitting, jumpers and things for school cos she starts the middle school in September Oh yes of course and she'd be wanting uniform ones yes but I'm not sure what colour to do yet, and I had a bit of spare, there's a girl who I work with who's pregnant, so I thought I'd just knit what wool I got Oh yeah but that's in Aran and this is just a double knit but mm I thought I'd knit it anyway and it should be alright just to give her a little something yes it's a nice pattern innit? I'll take the pattern cos Ann's sure to say where is it? yes Who's bringing the flowers? Those flowers? They've been there They were from Aunty Barbara and Uncle Alan for Mother's Day, yeah Yeah they sent money to Uncle Jim and he, oops, that knitting needle nearly go in your eye, and er, he went and got them, let's see they're keeping them watered That's right, you don't play with that, leave that where it was child it must leave it or you'll get noises they need watering Eh? Do you want some water? I said I'll get, I just go and put some water in Oh for them, alright for this plant Mam What? It's a shame, it was an expensive one I'll take it to the tap What's that? Where you going this afternoon? I dunno Ann says someone will tell us when she comes back, some are with the church cos I know there is a service on today and them ones downstairs from but Ann says they're going away just later on so there's no point in going down, mm, now is there? No So, oh Sunderland's playing this afternoon, semi-final There you are it's had a drink Where's your knitting? My knitting, it's here Is that Capri? You're going, you're going out to tea, that's where you going But where? At the Methodist church and then Where? you're going to the service Which Methodi which church were it? you went out for lunch on er Tuesday, you went to Eldon Square and you had your lunch there Ooh that reminds remind me you had your hair permed on Monday was it? Or Wednesday Which Methodist church? Morpeth Methodist She's had it permed? Yeah Look at this Ah well just cos you haven't, it has to be wet doesn't it? You just been brush since then ah Yeah cos er Jim had just come on duty and she was going up in the lift with somebody and they said please can we have five pounds, your mother's just had her hair permed Is that Capri? No it's not No, it's er Capri's rough, it's horrible to knit with this Dorothy told me about she said get yourself up to the wool shop Ann and It's nice that, like you say it's nice and soft I've got it, I've got some how, but this wool threaded through here, she said get yourself up to the wool shop at Stock Hill they've got this cotton look stuff in all colours for er fifty pence a ball Mm so I went I, I went Did you? Er, er, Jim got erm a ticket in the sweep at work for me, but it was er, what was it? Over the Road Well we, er, a I can never His didn't win either once they've crossed I'd have backed Durham Edition if he was racing Jim should have backed Party Politics shouldn't he? Yeah the only one as Don't think I don't think he's actually backed one in his li I, I haven't backed one in my life You haven't? I've, I've just bought erm Oh I always did sweep, sweeps Yeah yeah yeah, that's the only thing I've, it's the only horse he might not have got all the way round this time oh in fact all of our horses main meeting,me mother and Jim they were all up and running and if, they were front runners, you know and they were all finished and James he backed a two hundred to one shot, I says you're joking, aye it was up there with 'em mind and it finished twelfth, he said well it was a good bet How much money is he gonna get? He's not gonna get anything because it didn't finish in the first three but it was two hundred to one each way, he had two pound each way on it So how much would he have got? Er four hundred, four hundred, to, four hundreds if it'd won, for a place he would have get less, but he was still in it it was In third that was a good bet that, two hundred to one Too true Mummy is he says he was going by the horse like I should of brung mine mum Where's, where, you got any knitting? Did you give up did you? Did you give up on your squares? Oh you've got your little game that's right, keep it on quiet, do it on the quieter one so we don't Oh have you got, can you have it louder and quieter? Aha She can have no, she can have it with no sound or the sound Oh I see I'd rather you had it with the no sound in here see if you can beat your re what's your record? Fifteen Right, see if you can beat that you see, but er, an hour to try and beat that and, oh yeah Well you've got less actually because they'll be getting your grandma changed Yeah they're going to tea are they? Where, where at? Yes they're going to Methodist church, then they're gonna that In Morpeth? yes are you too you young to remember our christening No that one I know where that one is, aha yes you'll have mm, mm you'll have your tea in the hall downstairs and then go into the service upstairs in the Methodist church Why? What else? Cos you're invited ma Yes erm, it's a day out, an afternoon out it's for a day out your gonna You like a good sing and you know all the Methodist hymns Oh aye, be singing Why yes yes I was told you should of heard you erm on the karaoke night Yes when they had all the songs you knew you enjoyed that aye you were singing your head off non stop Who told a thing like that about me? You forget we've got spies, all the staff on this ward tell Jim exactly what you've been doing er, that's, that's how he knew you got your hair done, can we have five pounds, she's just had her hair permed, the day before he's just coming in and, no they sent to the ward can we have five pounds please your mum's been out for the day and she's had her lunch out you cost him a fortune and you say you've never been anywhere Well he knows where the, he knows where the money is He didn't get in yesterday to see you because er he's got, he was very, very busy, he's got a lot of poorly, really poorly patients at the moment The erm election note's up, I mean it, we were going through the local candidates through you know when the important dates are? Aha, yes Well it's not just er Labour, Conservative,ma erm, oh what is The general election? is it You're voting for an M P who goes to our local is it or not? is yours Ronnie ? are you not in Ronnie 's constituency? Oh he's Blythe isn't he? Are you in are you in Morpeth constituency I don't know cos er or Blythe? no idea I don't take a lot Have you had no election addresses around? Oh yes aye, but I haven't had time to read them yet Don't you know even notice the names? No, not at the min not at the min I haven't erm, there was one shoved through just this morning and I was on the phone I just picked it up and I shoved it on the Teesdale you must be Teesdale, Teesdale, I'm sure there's a Teesdale in it you must be in erm, you must be in Blythe constituency Teesdale rings a bell because ours are Conservative is Glen and the Green is Nick, Nick is it? The Green er the Lib Dem is Brian oh he's a horrible man he's one of these men who stand up and talk whether they've got anything to say or not you know at at meetings There's a lot like that not, not just political meetings, any kind of a meeting he gets up and spouts, and a lot of it's a load of rubbish and he's got such a superior attitude, I feel like spitting at him yes, she got that yesterday It's pretty I show you how to play the game Come on then you make a I, I know the last time and I was reading all me pamphlets that came through and I thought why, you know, but a lot of them I dunno it's hard to know who to vote for I think We surely don't want any more Tories in Well I don't think I've done that badly with them, you know What do you think's happened to the Health Service? Mm Have you talked to a nurse recently? The nurses always complain, they were badly paid Oh this that and the other just talk to them, just so short staffed, I don't know when Jim last got off duty on time Aye, they're short staffed the last time he should have finished at quarter to one he got off about half past one mm So is that because they could they won't take on any more? They can't, because of all the wards that are closed, because there aren't enough nurses I'm, I'm sure there's plenty of people who want to do nursing and a lot would be for the erm They can train, there's plenty training, but when you've finished your training there's nowhere There's no there's no jobs, look at erm Sunderland Aye, they're limiting the numbers, the government are limiting the numbers Sunderland General out of the last thirty something that trained, two got jobs Ah and they had to, I don't know where they went, but two got jobs it was in but it doesn't tell you what kind it is I read that in the it does Where? in that free general I got There or was it er when you, when you finished the game, oh sorry somebody's Chronicle I borrowed for some reason when you've finished the game off I can't remember if you press all them together Have you beaten your last score yet? She had, she had got to ten and as soon as she got eleven, mam I've got eleven mam, mam I've got twelve, I says well you don't have to tell us in the middle, wait until you've finished then, tell us how many you've got. It's called She's going away in a couple of weeks with the Brownies it's called Tetris, it's I'll show ya Where you going? I'm going to Hexham Very nice Wit Wit Withams still beside it look aha the game ah, the game is called Tetris yes oh, erm and it is a Nintendo Aunty Ann They've got a cottage in the country just for the Brownies Aunty Ann Oh a Nintendo watch Oh yes so their days are full so they'll be,and the day she goes there I'm going to City Hall to see Joe Cocker that night Oh Who? Joe Cocker Is it your just, just your Brownie pack? Mm, mm Yeah They're going, is it just one pack go at once, not ones from various Just, just one How long are you going for? Er three days Mm, mm where you trying to go with that Zimmer? Chris you were right about Casualty last night it was a repeat, she says to me I've seen it before, I says no you haven't Right at the beginning cos she said I'm sure Aunty Ann said it was a new series It wasn't a new series No I know you were right now, cos I haven't seen it but grandma says it was new Who grandma? Your grandma she said today to me It, it, it isn't new I didn't see any television last night she said it was a repeat I was trying to catch up on housework aye a repeat It wasn't a repeat oh yeah it was she said I'm going to be sick when, so Are you trying to impersonate a monkey or what? She's crawling round and round the bars of this Zimmer Zimmer, is that what they're called them? I'll get you one for Christmas, yeah Hmm Aye you're not, people'll think I'm a mental case with one Well aren't you? Beg your pardon? What makes you think you're not? that is a very nasty thing to say you know very nasty oh shall whoops I said erm me gran Give us more wool a bit and me needles grandma er said when she went to China and that she saw these bogeys on the back of bikes that they were carrying Mm, mm and I said grandma how many, how many hankies did they have for you? Oh What? How many what? She's making jokes Hankies, me mam was on about the bogeys that they pull on the, back behind their bikes And I said Aha how many tissues do they have to use? and she said how many the hankies do they use to cover all them bogeys Ha, ha Clever aren't you? I don't know No, I'm not She's been the middle school, she's been for a visit to the middle school Oh yes Yes and I enlarge my but the trouble is it make we went every day after After dinner, it's like, it gives them a taste of what it's like they go over for odd We do not eat the er, I'll do, you know the afternoon or a morning or something in the middle school mum we don't eat the no, I think you And do you think you'll like it? Dunno I'm sure you will Cos she starts the middle school in September, it's just the sort of running in you know they take them for a little visit so they get used to the school before they go, which is a good idea, I mean we were just thrown in Aye, we was, yeah and you're frightened of the school and you don't know where you are and you don't, the, the older students and that mm I says to our Fred Fred urgh Fred urgh I don't, the headmaster at the middle school She's horrible Ee what did you say to me? No I said did you meet Mr she says oh yes he's Were schools smaller when you were at school though? Yeah It was certainly, the grammar school They were talking, talking I went to only had er there was about between twenty five and thirty in each year and there was only form for each year so I say Oh they were bigger the classes are bigger now say there were a hundred and say, say there were thirty in a class, five forms is a hundred and fifty There were a lot bigger than that, when I was at school and er Chris there was about twenty yeah there was thirty, forty in the class when there was two two hundred at the most and that covered fourteen small towns and small villages and mind some of them were very small villages Oh no, we had a mind were big classes came from quite a wide area way up in the hills Airedale and all that area, at the foot of the Cleveland hills Well the high schools now they take them from all over don't they? Cos they just have one I think there's thirteen hundred at the high school in Morpeth, well yes they come from Rothbury Mm in fact there was one boy Les, Les actually lived fifty seven miles from the school he lived er, what was his address? Something, his father was a shepherd, his mother actually did bed and breakfast, she was on television about five years ago, she'd actually got electricity I think it was Oh erm both he, he became a shepherd when he left school as well, erm something Look will you leave it? was Pennine Way was his address That's why I move you so you wouldn't but, he actually lodged in Rothbury well that was fifteen miles to come each day What when he was at school? When he was at school, but he used to go home for the Christmas holidays and nobody saw him again till about March cos he was, he couldn't even get to Rothbury he was snowed in. It doesn't seem very It would of just, it would have been, if he hadn't been that he, you know that he had to go to a school in Northumberland, he was just as near I think I am or possibly nearer to Scottish well he went home at weekends It's, it's just the same as the kids from er, say erm that's you she's talking to mum I know that just looking what you got there? A green dress It's green Hmm I can see black it's a navy cardy cardy Oh that's what I wanna put on you after That's the cardigan we bought you for Christmas right it's a jacket cardigan that's the one you bought see you've missed your mouth You need a bib mother Did you not have any bother with the rains through the week at your place Margaret'll come back and change you later before we go to the tea party Where's the tea party? At the Methodist church Methodist church Oh the mad hatters tea party So I'm gonna have a clean dress on Maybe ah, no you are This what you looking for? You can't, you can't go with that one you spilt your dinner down Oh I've bought her sweets, I bought them last week and I forgot to leave them Mum can I have one? Yes I'm sure she'll let you have one That's her excuse I think I've got them in Oh I will have one please, thank you I always end up with a dry throat in here with all this heat Well they're good for dry throats aren't they? Mm Can I have one please Yes seeing as give me one, what's that? It's just me paper I'm marking me rose on She wants a sweet Here have a sweet they're there beside her what is it? It's a pad Uncle Jim gave me What is that supposed to do? That's supposed to be a picture of your intestines, that's your stomach that's your duodenum Everybody alright? Yes, we're alright as we'll ever be that's your When Jim and me mum sitting watching the football that's your large intestine that's your small intestine oh we can watch the football I don't know what er Sunderland's on this afternoon, semi final of the cup Doesn't look very nice does it? says to Jim what if they get through do you know what for Wembley Is it ? to go and see them mm, mm he says I've been to Wembley on the on the wrong side I says I know, you haven't been to see your team here, he says right once you've been to Wembley the second time's never as good it's just that Mum you've moved me I know because you, you were thumping me knee, I cannot knit with you close to us man Why don't you move this Zimmer and sit on the seat? What you doing? And tell me what you've been doing all the week Well Have you done anything exciting? No Well is that the way to have the chair? No, I'll tell you how far the rain affected us personally, you know the, well the antique shop at the end of our road Yeah you know there are steps go up it aha behind it yeah well they go up at the side of it and down behind it Down to the river? down and there's a path goes along and it comes, it goes under the road bridge and it comes out at the foot bridge and it runs next to it Aha the water got up to the second step from the top, but, when, instead of turning right into my road if you'd keep straight on aha and go along the river, you know where the flood wall is? yeah Mm that's called Bennetts Walk, Bennetts Walk was all flooded, that was closed off mm but that wasn't with flood water coming over, that was because it was coming up the drains, cos it couldn't drain into the river ah, aha so those houses were all sandbagged, but it, it got into some, the problem was that the, the road closed sign kept blowing down in the wind, I tried to stand it up but it was oh so heavy, I got it up, but it, it immediately blew down again, and Well we went down people couldn't see that it was water there Oh sort of going just a short way along and having to reverse back out again I tell you how bad our one was, it was all over the road, this, the, the river line mm at from the goes up some, er when one of the where the court is, where you used to play tennis when the father of one of the children came it was right he said has flooded oh yeah and there's a house there, I think it's a farm on the corner and they, they always get it I mean When was this? Last week with the rains Thur er Wednesday and Thursday the children I have before and after school at Goose Hill School, you know the one, the one near me, just the bottom of the road on the corner, that's had to be closed on Thursday because the boiler room had flooded on Wednesday and er they had to dry it out and also the children from Newminster were told anyone living in the Middle Queens area go home And they closed that er school did they not? I thought they sent them home cos the rains in They must send them home at erm they must of sent them home about quarter to three, because they got home at quarter past I remember somebody came in at the shop and says the Newminster School had been sent home, but where, which school's that? Is that the one round, down the bottom of your lane? No Newminster is the one along Midford road the one in the same grounds at Chantry Oh if you were going Chantry school? Yes Oh, that's right up behind me Yes, well, they, they, they thought it oh I yeah, the, the, the erm, they share the same school gate Aye you go up along drive in and Newminster is on your left and Chantry is on your right, at, but I should imagine erm I should imagine that quite a lot of Chantry School children would be sent home because they're for the children outside of Morpeth, you know they go there from yeah and er, where else? Midford Do they go there from Nether Witham? Yes they'll go there from Midford and of course the water was well, well up yeah into the gardens, the back gardens of the houses in Midford Road Ooh it was a sight and the greenhouses the trees were racing down the river, the river was running oh they were huge, then of course when it subsides you've got a build up of trees, that's left, you know left on the, where they've blocked There's a big tree was wedged on er, I don't know if it's still there on Friday, I took a trip up to see it See if there's bodies if there's any bodies down there, they'll be lifting Oh heck erm under the er She said heck, she's got a swear box in our house I put ten pence in the other day Under the er old gate bridge Yeah the was flooded and the house which one's the old gate bridge? Is that the one from the Joiners? No the one from the Joiners that footbridge Cos we walked other day that was closed off on er there was one in the paper, there was a picture of it in the paper, and it, I'm sure, it did say the old gate bridge, I'm sure and it was nearly owt it was going over the bridge you know where the clock you know where the clock tower is? Go past the clock tower mm and that's the old gate bridge, that nice big stone one, the newest one you go over the clubs on the other side we used to go up you go over to the club the bank there, where you used to that's right that's the one that's, was right over the top of that Yes Yeah, you know in those house and it was it was over the footbridge you know when you go into Morpeth instead of turning Yeah right to go into go into Goose Hill oh yeah, aha to come to my house, when you go over that bridge there's one further over on the left just a footbridge from the Joiners yeah through to Chantry Place mm, mm that bridge was closed off it was up to there bridge from the Joiners? Yes, that was closed off That might of been the one that was I don't know if the I didn't see the water over it because we went, Jim and I went out at about erm ten o'clock that's quite a drop you know, because it's quite a long way down It's a heck of a way down it's a hell of a lot of water that's right, with Aunty Ann did you see Noel's House Party at the end when erm I don't watch it pet, and er, when was it Wednesday night? Yeah And we went, because it, it'd been at five o'clock you see, it'd been up to the second, that was when it was up to the second step step behind the antique shop, and we went along and had a look and at ten o'clock it had dropped right down to the second step from the bottom roughly Mama just killed a man put a gun against his head, pulled aye mind it was gonna be a high tide at one o'clock in the morning his trigger now he's dead but it would still of had to risen Grandma a heck of a lot to get Yeah to that level it takes a lot of water to do that mind Oh it does don't have Well you know where the weir is in the park? Yes that's quite a drop down yes well there was no weir er there, it was just, it was above that aye so you know it was just flowing along smoothly, you couldn't see that there was a wi er weir there Have a nice journey won't you mum and the bridge near the baths the Elliott bridge Yeah that was closed off I think it was probably the other day because erm the wa the ducks were swimming on the road at er six o'clock just on the road near the baths Ah Here are Aunty Ann and all the new wood chippings that they'd put er I'd hate to live that close to, to the river Oh so would I Aunty Ann I mean mm, mm erm you not, guess what er a, a horse's favourite television programme are, is? What is a horse's favourite television programme? What is a horse's favourite television programme? Neighbours. What is Neighbours, mm sounds more like a sheep than a horse, neighbours What, what is a pig's most favourite thing? What is a pig's most favourite thing? Honk er, honking honking Oh Where'd did you get them from? and I don't know I think she's got a joke book have you? and what is Chris picks up these things from school what is keep them clean please what is a cow's Let me see your teeth, you haven't cleaned them in two days what is a, what Disgraceful mm, what is Oh she's just had a they'll drop out yellow sweet there She has, she's just eaten a yellow sweet, her tongue's all yellow what is a teeth are yellow what is a cow's favourite erm meal? What is a cows favourite meal? Mousse What? Mousse mousse and the glory all you see I'm doing an Oh, it's getting hotter in here Oh it's getting hotter in here And the window is open I know the window's open, I know What time does Jim finish then? What time does Jim finish then? Well he should finish at nine Jim should finish at nine Has he been in all day? Has he been in all day? No he star Don't do it Parrot Parrot he started at one he started at one he went out at quarter to he went out at quarter to he started at one he started at one he should finish at nine or is it, or is it five to nine, I think it's officially five to nine, not that he ever does not that he ever does I don't know how he finds time for his politics I don't know how he finds time for his politics let alone anything else let alone anything else Well I think I'm gonna put a zip on your mouth there are occasions when er I want to discuss something seriously There is with him, I I sarcastically make an appointment Sarcastically make an appointment, what does that mean? There was once years and years ago,he came in one night and I gave him these three pieces of paper and er what was it? He said what's this? I said it's an application in triplicate I'm go I'd erm, I forgotten what it was I was going to buy and I said I wanted to discuss this with you and when we can go and get it I think I probably decided what it was more or less, but er he got quite stroppy Ann can be funny sometimes, I can take a joke can't I? I thought it was quite a good joke myself Yeah Aunty Ann Yes dear anyway the rest of them Aunty Ann have gone to Belfast by the way I didn't see last Sunday did I? Cos we came in the morning Who's gone? Oh Gareth hasn't gone Neighbours No everybody needs good neighbours Shirley said she wouldn't believe he wasn't going until he didn't go and all the rest of them had gone with a little understanding Did you see that about Simon Weston the Falklands through the week? No but I watched, I watched the programme on erm training the Paras Yes, oh we saw that Oh it sickens you doesn't it? All the swearing She's, yeah, this is where you know Oh yes swear at them beep, beep hey, hey, hey, hey there's no doubt about that they swear at him where you beep up there I can remember when Gareth did his initial Para training, even though that, that they wear vest and a T-shirt and one of those thick army shirts Mm, mm Aha and erm, you know that the erm padded er what do they call it? You know the camouflage jacket, what did he call it? Erm Can't remember, anyway that oh I know what you mean even though they had that on, with having to march and run, and he were doing these fifteen miles half, well sort of jogging and running and with the forty Will you get me the key then please? Have you got everything Richard? Yes Have you Amy? Yes Right. Matthew, have you, have you anything else? Right, are we ready? What am I standing on? Will you prop it up please? Oh I forgot it's bin day I'll have to hurry back from school. Right, troops forward march! Put the key in me pocket. Rebecca's the colonel. Rebecca's the colonel? Yes Right colonel! Open the door please. Ann! Yes Mm I had to go back it suddenly occurred to me I've got the back door key but it might still have been bolted. I didn't know if Jim had bolted it when he went to work cos he went out before I got up. We caught a cat in your garden. Hello A ginger and white one. A ginger and white one? Yeah. He had Oh We used to have one that was ginger and white. Did you? Yeah. She's the oldest Right. Left, right hup, two, three. What are you? You're the sergeant. Hi Louise You're the sergeant. I'm the sergeant? Yeah Let's catch up with Louise. You're the colonel, you're the lieutenant and I'm the sergeant. There's four of you what's the other one? I don't know. You alright Ann? Yes thank you. Are you? Yes. Good. Is that your shopping list you're writing writing on the move? Er yep and what have you got to say this morning Erin? Nothing? Is that all? Is Christopher awake? Oh yes. He's got to take right off. He's got what? He's got to take Oh, yeah oh keep together everyone I'm the colonel. I'm the commander-in-chief. Haven't we got a lance corporal? No My son's a lance corporal. Oh quickly, there's a car coming! Oh They tell me it's er open day on Wednesday? Wednesday I didn't know. But yeah you know I haven't er had I had letters about it? Yes, a yellow letter. Oh, I mustn't have read it. They usually show me the letters in case Aha. it's something to do with me. So they want collecting early? More than likely. Well none of the parents ouch! Broken a nail. Go forward Erin. None of them are, be going during school hours so I'll get them out half an hour or three quarters of an hour early or so. Aha. Oh Had a rush? I've been up since half past seven. She's as slow as a broken down snail. She drives me batty. I've never heard that one a broken down snail. I like that She is! that appeals to me. I shall use that . She drives me batty. I mean she was upstairs three quarters of an hour and when she came to the top of the stairs she still just had her vest and knickers on. I said hurry up! Bye Ann! Bye Matthew, are you Bye Ann! Oh yes, you're not in my house. Bye Ann! Bye children! Bye Rebecca! Bye Rebecca! Bye bye Rebecca, bye Amy, bye Matthew, bye Richard I've got a load of videos in here the triplets left on Friday. Oh. Although I don't think Trevor would of wanted to carry them cos he was pushing them up. Dorothy had to go up to Scotland. Oh I see. oh has Kathy had her hair done? Oh yes. Oh! Morning Good. Very smart. I finished, I finished my hair You've finished your decorating? Yes at Oh last I got moved back in last night. Ooh carry please, ooh carry please Who is it? I dunno. Sorry Adam, don't know who that one is. So will you see Lorraine then? I don't know. Does she pick Paul up tonight I don't know. If she doesn't, if we don't see her I'll ring her. Right. Right you are. I'll Right. be going anyway. I'd better get over the road Right then. I'm not sure if I'm seeing Martin or, over or not cos Dorothy's got her mother staying with her. You can't remember? Yeah That's the one that was at the gymnastics. Got the coat on. You know her, I can't think of her name. What's this? A mystery. Oh is this the thing we went round the door with? Oh! Where's your mum? parked over there. Alright, I've gotta go and see her. Right pet. Your Granny Iris get here? Yeah she doesn't come here No but she, she came, she's come to stay with you. Yes. Yes, alright pet. See you Bye! Whoops! Oh! Yes please. I've got a pile of stuff in here anyway for you. Have you? Who's that from? The videos, your children's videos Ah right. and er what else, oh and the Goldilocks book he didn't take home. Right I found that yesterday in the erm doll's pram. I was gonna ask a favour, if you don't mind for tonight. Yeah? Would you mind having the boys for about half an hour because I would like to get Bryony's hair cut. I want about three or four inches off the bottom Mhm and I think she's gonna have an absolute screaming fit. Where're you taking her? Probably to the one at Staffhill if I could have an, if I can get an appointment booked. Yeah It's just that, well you can imagine what she's gonna be like. But she screams so much when she gets her hair cut and she won't have I know. it tied back. So even though I'd like I still haven't given, that's reminded me seeing Shona there, I, I don't think I've given her that pair of trousers and the sweatshirt and I told her that I've got them. I must look for them. Right, so that'd be lovely if you don't mind having them after school. Right, I'll get you these er Oh I'll pick them up if you like, cos I'm gonna go and see if I can get my shoes Alright, well I'll, I'll give you them now cos they're here in the car. Oh right! I've got I've got them with me. That's erm the card with teddy bears on that Bryony wanted that she kept me Oh right last night. she kept meaning to take home and kept forgetting. isn't it? It is, yes. Oh she loved it. She carried it all around on er Tuesday. Right, there are your videos. Right, thanks. The children have been difficult this weekend I don't know what's a matter with them, I think they're just Well, the er th they seem to Richard seemed to cry a bit more or a bit easier, you know, if he bumped himself and Bryony, and I think it was, well Bryony it seemed to be a heavy cold that was making her feel miserable. Yes And I think maybe it was with all of them. They were just slightly under the weather. And Martin has taught them to say you stupid zombie. Oh great! Oh great! I know, that's I'm really pleased about that. Oh dear! So James is going around calling everybody a stupid zombie. Oh well, it makes a change from a stupid idiot I know. It's gonna be wonderful at nursery if he goes straight up to his teacher again. Oh. Oh heck. Again? Why? You know when she told him to close the cupboard? No. At nursery? No. She was, he was going in her cupboard, Mrs I gather he said you stupid idiot to her. Oh dear! Oh what a start on your first visit I know or a good impression . I know. I think that's part of the reason why she said you've got your hands full . I heard her say you've got your hands full but I didn't know why. Oh, hey. And then with Richard having the screaming fits when it was time to go home. Ah but that, that Very reluctant. that was a good sign wasn't it? He was screaming because he had to go home . Yeah but none of the them would sit down or anything like that so you know Yeah, oh, no I think she's got quite a . Well I mean that's what children are like. Well none of the others looked as young as them did they? No, they're not. I mean they're not even three, yet they're going to be the absolute youngest. Joe who started, you know Debbie who's Yes got three boys? Yes Joe was er three at the beginning of February. Well at that age a few months makes a difference. It does yes. Oh, how's your mother? Alright, she's er quite She hasn't driven yo you round the bend yet? squawking at each other because the kids have been so diabolical! Oh! Oh dear. So I think she's got quite an impression of Trevor now. I keep saying to her they're not normally like this. Well they're not. But if they're not feeling quite well what can you expect? Mm. I mean what do you feel like when you're not quite well? Aren't you short-tempered and whatever? Mm Oh I've undone me belt. Right then, I'll see you Do you want me to, have you got everything that you need to give me? Yes, you have Yes you've given me book. Yeah one book yours. Right, lovely and I'll see you, or do you want to keep those for tomorrow? Those videos? I just thought you might've needed them today that was all Oh I'm gonna get them out as much as possible. If you're going up the wall with them if they're not very well. Did Okay they actually watch them last week? Er they watched they watched a bit of Spot and a bit of Paddington. They didn't, they di they weren't watching them for very long at all. Right well have those in case you're climbing up the wall. I'm climbing up They're very fond of Rosie and Jim but Oh yes. but er If I'm climbing up the wall I just take them out. Yeah Right, can you, wait a minute, I've got me hand caught round the handle. Right, oh you'll need er James's Goldilocks book though. Right, right. Okay. Ow! Me head! Sorry! So I'll make You didn't do it, it was me. close to half past three as I can so I can be back by four to pick them up. Right. Right, thanks a lot. Right, thanks, see you later. Bye! Bye! Morning Isabelle! I'm kennel maid Kennel maid, oh yes I'll have to do more washing. Aha. Paul! Coming! It's like Fort Knox your house. Where do I get car mats for Jim's car? Car mat in Yes. I want some car mats for his birthday. He's on yes, he's only getting a little present cos I'm still paying for his camcorder till next month. Auto Parts. Where's that? It's er Mayes. What used to be Mayes the food shop. Yeah next Mayes to Rydales and Newton's on the corner of erm Oh right up the top of Newgate Street? Yeah Yeah on the opposite Cos you have to get special mats for special cars, don't you? Don't you? You can or you can get universal fit ones. Oh. I just wondered because we were in Winners once and it had some and he picked them up and he looked at them and he said I don't think these are the right shape for my car and I know he needs some. Do Winners sell them, do they? I didn't know Oh yes but erm I didn't know that. I can't remember how much they were. Does it not say on the package Some do some are properly tailored for whether they're for a, what's Jim got a Fiat? I didn't know if you had to go to er a special Fiat garage or what? No, no, no. Oh Did you have Sheila yesterday? Yes. Cos she, she'd gone to you first and she, and she came along, she said erm Ann's not in, she said I've come down to see you both. I said I think she'll be at the hospital visiting her mother-in- law. Yeah I was. So when she went out I said Ann's probably back now and er she said well if I don't see her tell her I've been down Mhm and er and so I said to Paul, Ann'll get plenty conversation today. Yes, it was nice to see her wasn't it? It was it was very nice and she said erm Edith's in America. Well I knew that. I met Edith the day before she was going. Oh, right, right. She said erm according to Sheila, David's not as bad as, as Edith says he is. But Edith said to me He still comes down to walks down Does he? I haven't seen him Oh! I said I haven't seen him. Oh she says he does, he goes down. I must've been out at the wrong time. Cos he can't see, can't read for a terribly No for a long period of time She said he's most upset because he can't drive any more, erm Are you on your own? Yes. Want a cup of coffee? Well, were you making one now? He's just making one, yeah. Oh, half a one please, Paul! Half a cup please! I'll just go an lock me door then. Yeah, okay Right. Are you going up the street? Er yes I'm going to get these car mats. Course. I'm going as well, right. Well if that's where I'm going to I wouldn't be able to get the triple buggy into that shop, would I? Has it got double doors that shop? It's only a small shop, isn't it? Anyway,it's better to go today. It's too far to walk them and it's, it's up hill all the way in that, with that chariot on your own than push the buggy. Yes. Yeah. Right, coffee's coming up! Besides which, if I can't get any I'll have to think of something else. Right, I'll go and lock me door. I think it's the wet. Which is Ann's? You what? Which is Ann's Which is mine? without sugar? The one on the . That one, okay, right, oh! How long has the kettle been on? It's just been . Oh right. Oh might as well go and sit down then Ann, waiting for blast off! Ooh! It is chilly, honestly and I don't want to put the heating on again. I, I'll hold it off for the I'm economizing on the Doesn't sound very hopeful. Does erm Bob er m know a lot about growing plants and things as well as vegetables? Oh yes, he, he I'm looking, I want somebody who knows something about gardening. I'm trying to find out why one of our azaleas has turned up its toes. Albert over the road will be the best one to Oh. tell you that, cos he was erm, erm school Oh. grounds gardener. He I'll try he would deal with shrubs more than, Bob hasn't got a, I mean he grows flowers and I know and things like that. yeah. Thank you. Erm, but erm, I mean he nearly does know, but I mean Albert is Is it lit? Mm mm Albert is the gard he, you know, really good gardener. Er I mean he shows Well they're both in tubs, they're both planted in ericaceous compost which is what we were told. Yeah When we fed them before the winter we gave them proper er fertilizer for things that need acid soil. Mm mm I know they can be affected by wind and frost and it turns the leaves brown and kills off the buds, but why is only one affected? And as soon as it's Are they different kinds? Or No. are they exactly the same? They're the same kind exactly but they're different colours that's all. They're both in, they're both in wooden half barrels. But, but don't azaleas don't azaleas shed their leaves? Erm I think some do but some are evergreen and these are evergreen. Oh! Because I had one in the garden here and we moved it actually when we, we took the er hedge out er to put the fence and the gate on er and we moved it somewhere else and it er it just died off. Er but it used to er shed its leaves. Well, yeah I think some do. And I think you're supposed to prune a little bit, aren't you? They're not big enough to prune yet. They're, they're about er But should you not prune them lightly to eighteen inches. encourage new growth?you see No i it's er Albert going past, he's back and forwards to the garden. It said in the gardening book. It didn't say much about them. Really it's about, you know, huge erm rhododendrons, it's only a little bit at the end of that. But erm I've got a book here. you know that er polythene that's got wire netting in between it like a, like a wire netting sandwich with po with clear polythene on the outside? We bent some of that round the windward side of the barrel Oh right yes a sort of and I, and tied a lump of string round it to keep it on. So it's been sheltered from the wind. Ooh unless the We've made sure cat's done something on it. Oh God, next door's cats. Er I thought I had one in the house yesterday I went, as Sheila was going erm Jackie was in her garden Oh yes and I was telling her that that was the daughter-in-law of Mrs who lived there before Owned the house originally. Graham did Yes. and er I'd left the front door and the inner door open and It don't switch off I'll have to go and do it. oh, and er the cat was lurking around however, it had gone somewhere else. I can't Oh gosh! I've done it full! Oh never mind I'll drink half of it. Yeah, azaleas. It's a weak one anyway, Ann. It just says, where is it? Lime-free soil plus large quantities of peat or leaf mould. Some shade during the heat of the day . Er it doesn't get any. Erm when the sun's at the hottest anyway it's sheltered it only gets, oh and the other thing is, you, er it, it doesn't say here but you're supposed to, it's supposed to be somewhere where they'll be sheltered from the early morning sun if there's been Oh! a frost. Oh we've had frost we haven't any early morning sun anyway. Thank you. They said your azaleas reach five to eight feet. it doesn't say, does it? I gave it some water cos I They might be different types, you see. One might Yeah but you see what I mean? I know it's, it's just turning up its toes. Oh! Dear, dear. How much are car mats, Paul? I think they're within the region of two quid each up to about five pound each. Mm I can afford that. Evergreen Azaleas. Mostly small plants three to four feet high . Is that what you've got? Yes they are small cos I got them Small dark green leaves, to go in these half barrels flowering prolifically May and June. Mostly hybrids. Forms of azalea. Look for the hybrid flowering June July. Exceptionally hardy but needing shade.. Well it's against the garage wall. Mostly very hardy, large flowers, pink no pruning needed. Propagated by layers. It said in my book just tidy them up if you, you know, if they needed a bit of tidying up. planting out . No, it doesn't say any more than that. No, it doesn't say That's more or less what it said in my book except erm they need to be shaded from early morning sun if there's been a frost. Well we've had plenty of frosts but there's been no early morning sun. I know there's been wind Oh there's been a lot of wind but er which probably is bad as a frost. Yeah Have you got them in separate containers? Yes. Ah yes, I think you told me. And the, they're beside the garage facing towards the kitchen Mm oh they're sheltered and the sun always comes along the side of the house. I can tell because me, me washing always blows towards the gate, to the back gate Mm mm right? Mm mm Erm so that must be, that's south over there isn't it? Mm mm Well it should be a south wind, it's not even a north wind. That's west that's south Yes, that's right. No Hang on. That's west, that's east, that's north Wait a minute,wh which, which direction's Scot oh me nose. that's south, that's south, that's south Yes. that's south Well it's coming along the side of the house along there. Yeah, but that'll be like a tunnel, you know, when the wind's blowing because the wind hits our front Yeah windows and is it the one er nearest the front that is Yes. Oh yeah, no But it's only about er what's in between the two barrels? Th the,th you know that erm small cauldron with er primroses in? Mm That's all that's separating them, I mean they're close together Yes, but different plants respond differently to and it's not big enough to shelter the other one and the other one looks perfectly healthy. Mm unless you've just got some disease. Good cup of coffee that. Eh? I said it's a good cup of coffee that. Oh! Thank Paul Thank you Paul! It's the one coffee I get made per day. I get one in the morning and then at night. Well he makes tea at night. He makes a cup of tea at night and that's his effort. So er Sheila was saying that erm Andrea's in Lon er Bath. Oh! Erm I said what's she doing she says she's gonna do archaeology. Oh yes now But she said she's only, she said she's twenty one and she said I think Edith she's got no A levels yet. Well what about erm Kathleen's Jenny is seventeen! I know, I know and she's coming to Newcastle Yes erm University Yeah cos she said she'd just bought a flat Mhm she's gonna lend to them. Erm but I mean I thought Andrea was going in catering and she says well that's what we hope. We thought that would be best for her Oh yes she was very keen wasn't she when she used to come and stay with her Grandma? But she says she's now wanting to do archaeology erm but she says she hasn't got any A levels! You can't do that without A levels. So she says I don't think she's really capable of getting any. So she's just left Yes Andrea Yeah oh So she says Graham erm forgot the name, what do they call him? And Jennifer's doing er did she say history and politics? Oh right is she doing history and poli oh Aha, yeah Erm Gillam, he's working for some er publishers in London. Mm so he must be twenty Oh he'll be four, five? Yes I think, cos he's through university. Oh and is Ann still in Kenya? I didn't ask her any of it. Yeah she's in Nairobi, mhm Er yes Nairobi and she says they come across, she comes across occasionally. They were gonna let the house. Well I thought Edith said she came across at Christmas cos if you remember, we've always sent her Christmas cards to her house in, near Harrogate haven't we? That's right, yes, yes. Well we didn't know where else to send them. No. Cos she said But I'm sure she'd gone for a couple of days when she was up but she says she hasn't been up to see her for about eighteen months! You know when er the fir when we went up to Edith's, when she'd first moved in, for Yeah coffee? Mm Didn't Edith say then that Ann came across for Christmas? To be with the children, mm Well that's two years ago! Isn't it? Oh yes it will be. It it wasn't last well, it'll be nearly two years No she's be erm Edith moved in was it January or February? January. That's right because we got a card in the, in our Christmas card saying that they were moving back to That's right. Right. and er they hope to be in by January the something? I knew it was January Yeah, oh cos that's when she said Frank, Frank only came for a short while or something? Yes So he doesn't have to pay taxes. I mean they must find they must find it expensive because I mean if they're keeping that house on they have to have somebody going in to look at it, won't they? And they'll have a home in Nairobi. Yes. Still it must pay them, must pay them to do that. Oh what's Paul doing? Perfectly honest I don't know he spends a lot of time in there . Oh I wa I was wa I don't quite know what he does sometimes I was watching for him erm I'd been to the loo and I glanced out the er landing window and I thought it looked too tall for you. I thought it was his shape moving behind your kitchen net curtain and er I thought oh I'll dash and ask him now about those car mats so I can go and get them. Well I, tell him what kind of car it is. Yes. Erm Well this is, this is why I thought perhaps erm I didn't want to ask Jim too much or he would know I was buying them for him you see. That's right yes. And I remember this time in Winners when he, he picked them up and looked at them and said I don't think these are the right ones for my car and that, that's why I thought They were too small you see, weren't they? and I was thinking where on earth is there a shop in that sells, sells things like that or do you have to go to a garage and I'd forgotten that that fruit Yes shop was one now. Yes it's, it's very useful actually. I've been up there buying things for him in the past when he was er operating the taxi and he hadn't time to go himself. Yeah And er if they haven't got it they'll get it for you. They're very good. Mm Yeah You mean if they haven't got any I'll have to make a model. I bought him one Christmas years and oh hey, we were just married and I ordered him an extending ladder from the Co-op Mm and I ordered it in November, it finally came in February. So I bought him something else for Christmas, something smaller and I made him a model out of matchsticks and I said this is the prototype Oh my of your Christmas present! I goodness! That would need some concentration I, I just sort of made erm two short ladders about two inches long. Oh right. I think I did it with a pair of tweezers to, so I could stick the matchsticks together and then I stuck one half on top of the other to make it look like an extending ladder . Yes When is his birthday then? Er Wednesday. Oh right, right. So he's er an April erm birthday? Yes. Mm He's always telling me all the best people are born in April. Well my, my vary. Jennifer, she was born on April Fool's Day. I think that must Oh yes. be awful being an April Fool. I'll tell you who else is the first of April as well. Mrs at this end of the old people's bungalows. Oh yes! I know who you mean. I see he er the son's re er well he hasn't retired he's er given notice that he's not er going to be on the market committee now. Oh I saw your photograph in the Oh Did you see it? I'll tell you why he's probably not going to be on the mar market committee because his daughter had a Yes he said jewellery stall. he said there's been a lot of erm talk about his daughter and erm son-in-law having a stall and is one of the markets where he intends to trade in and erm he thinks This is that the he'll be sort of for a right. She's on the council, the town council, his daughter. Is she? Fiona yes. According to Jim she's never opened her mouth and said a single thing yet but er She turns up? Yes. Well I suppose he's had a lot of flack, I mean look at the Well he says that everyone says if you want a council house in you've got to Well that's mentioned in the art was mentioned in the article as well you've got to join the Liberal Party and you've got to be related to Ian Erm he got a lot of flack But let's face it when he was on the housing erm well all his three children got houses at, at eighteen. None Yes of them married Yeah and when when this one who's got the market stall was pregnant Mm she gave up her flat and went to live with her mother. Mm When she was pregnant again, I think the father by then was divorced so she married him, she immediately got a house Yes. no, she had a house to start with. When you think of all the families on the waiting list I know they're waiting and single eighteen year olds being given Yeah houses it's, it's, they left themselves wide open for That's right well that was people to mentioned in the article as well about the housing committee Yes. in the erm well silly to put yourself in that predicament wouldn't it? Mm It's mad. It is. Stupid. I'm going But remember when this afternoon Are you? I've been Oh yeah we're having a salad to make. That's what he's doing in the kitchen washing the, cos Paul says if you're back late I'll be having my dinner before you come, I says okay. I forgot to check wha if Jim's got a meeting tonight. If he has I've got to think of something to cook that he can finish off cooking so he can eat it before I get back from aerobics so I can stick mine in the microwave to warm up . You warm it up? You warm it up? Yes, I mean it mhm it doesn't need to be absolutely freshly cooked. Yes. No this is why I ca I don't know if you remember, but erm she was interviewed by a reporter, Fiona and she,i when the market traders were all on strike and you know all those months the er and there was only the two fruit stalls there Yeah. and occasionally the fish st well Yes. yes occasionally three fruit stalls and one fish stall, she said er the market, the market hadn't ceased trading, trading, it was perfectly healthy it was doing very well! Cos I thought, I thought where have you been? I mean there had been how many? Ninety was it? Yes. Sometimes a hundred. Mm mm And er four stalls at the most there and according to her it was perfectly healthy and there was nothing wrong with it. I thought, and then I happened to go, Jim came to carry the fruit and vegetables for me and when it had opened again, and there was she with this, I looked at Jim and I said ah! That's why she said that she's got this jewellery stall. Oh! I didn't know what stall, type of stall she had I just read about it in the paper I haven't had a proper look around the market for I looked I went down I looked at the buttons next to the fruit stall because what I usually do I go and get the fruit and vegetables, if Jim's on the right shift he takes them home, otherwise I buy them while it's quieter, the man keeps them for me, I go straight across the leisure centre to soft clay cos it's only open on Wednesdays and then on the way back one of them walks Oh you put them in the pram. and I put the fruit and vegetables in the buggy and we come straight home cos it's time to eat by then. Mm mm I'll have another cigarette and then I must dash. Yes I'm going to the street and getting an early lunch and getting myself organized for going out. What time are you to go up? Well half past two I usually erm Dorothy was telling me this morning you know when we were at erm nursery? Mm mm That's lit erm I heard Mrs you've got your hands full there. Dorothy told me why. She'd er Mrs had asked James to close the cupboard and he called her a stupid idiot . Mm! Yes. Oh that's gone out. Oh my! And now Martin's taught him to call people stupid zombie so Dorothy's not pleased. Oh dear! He's not going to be very popular with her help at . Oh he'll soon get out of it. I mean they, they settle down, they settle down Yes. I mean it's good for them learning to be amongst a lot of children and they soon learn that erm they can't have their way. Well her boys are quite amenable really but erm Bryony is the one Bryony you know Mm the tantrum screaming carries on when she doesn't want her coat on to go out. Yeah. I had a bit I mean of that with Joshua last if she week and he's got to the stage now where don't want to Yes. and he starts crying if you insist erm and you have to be pretty firm with him Mm mm and won't say anything er go away, go away Yeah Bryony went if you, well she's not so bad now she's got over that phase where she refused to have her coat on, but if you're trying to get her ready erm and she doesn't want to get ready, she'll say either go away or don't do that to me if I'm trying to get her coat on. Oh dear! The joys And and James sometimes says I don't want to hear that! Well she says it's not her and I don't remember saying that. Oh! Oh well, it must be you then. I mean, no if he says something that I don't like I usually say oh that's not very nice is it? Mm But if er if I'm s if I say to him you're not, you're not eating properly, sit up and, you know,pu bring your plate near to you Mm mm I don't want to hear that! Tt oh! Well, won't be long now before they're in school, another, another year? A year this summer? Erm they'll go a year in, wait a minute. They'll go a year come September, won't it? Yes. April, May, June, July, August, September they'll be four in five months Mm mm by then. Gosh it soon passes, doesn't it? When you think it doesn't seem five minutes ago Ee I know. It seems when you first had that the tiniest them it, it seemed ages before they were going to be on their Well they was going to school. well James especially, the, the tiniest Baby-gro Yes. his feet came down to the knees on it Yes . and they had Bryony in, I'm sure it was a doll's dress Mm mm you know when they were two days old, Trevor took me through to the hospital He's not working! Who? Erm Shirley's husband, Jimmy. That's funny. Cos I've seen him about a lot. Jim said that to me yesterday and I said isn't he on holiday? Well he seems That, that to be having a long holiday! Jim said to me last night is er Jimmy h is he not working? No! I've just seen him go past. I thought, I wonder if you knew cos he's been about a lot lately. I haven't noticed. Mm yes he's been Oh! going out with the dog rather than Shirley. Oh. I wonder if erm Shirley's sister's working because she often meets her nieces yes her nieces from school and she has her nephew with her, you know, Judith's. Oh! Do does her sister live here now? No I Cos didn't she leave her husband? Oh she remarried. She's Oh has she remarried has she? she's got, yes, have you seen her No I haven't eldest daughter, I don't know Ruth, you know the one I used to look after? Well, when she first left her husband she moved in with Shirley With Shirley yes. and er how did they all fit in that house? I don't know Cos there was Shirley and Jimmy, and Ann and Sarah, and Judith, and Ruth and Christopher, and Christopher was was Christopher nine? Or was he at road, by then? Erm Ruth was definitely at Goosehill School. She's very tall, very slim and very, very attractive. She's really pretty. Mm I don't know And Christ Christopher's six foot something and a very handsome young man. And does her sister work? Well this is what I was wondering because Mm because Shirley seems to have been looking after, anyway she married this Robert Mm apparently she used to go out with him before she married Derek, I think her first husband was called. And now she's got er Rona and Sophie I can't remember the boy's name. So she's got six children altogether? She had three to her first marriage. I can't no, she's got Ruth and Christopher, Judith's the mother Oh! Oh right. She's got Ruth,a Shirley's Ann, to me, looks more like Judith than she looks like her mother. Oh right! Yes. Except of course, Ann's blonde and Yes. er Shirley's black, or it was. She seems to have gone very grey very quickly. Oh! You know, really, really quickly. Well I, I suppo this is her sister you're talking about? Mm mm. No! Shirley herself. Shirley. Oh I hadn't noticed it Yeah, her sister's got slightly lighter hair than, than Shirley had. I do I don't know her sister much. But I think they live at Pegswood. But the other thing is, Judith's husband plays in a band now I'd, I th it might be a pipe band, I'm not sure Oh! and he travels arou they go or is it a band? I don't know , erm but he sometimes goes abroad with it I think, but he, he goes to different parts of the country and Judith goes with him. I know erm when there was only Ruth and Christopher before Judith had Rona, they sometimes used to come and stay with Shirley. I would think it would be easier for Shirley to go to their house to look after them now. I'd have thought so, yes, yeah. But I think, I think Does, does the boy come to this, the, the girl come to this school? No, erm the little ones? Yes. Yes. Oh and they live at Pegswood, do they? Well I just think they might I wonder well they did, they certainly were living in Pegswood, but I've noticed when they bring the children to school the car frequently comes along the river way. Oh they must live down there somewhere or maybe I mean So that to come that way they've gotta be, they're coming from the bottom of Bennet's Walk or from Or from Courts street or from up the hill or somewhere, yes. Mm Or unless they come from Stobb Hill and come by the station and over the crossing. Well that means they've gotta come over the crossing. I know but it's, it's sometimes Gotta be quicker! it's sometimes very difficult to The traffic! turn into Goose Hill off erm That's right off the main road. Right, I'd better go and get ready and go and get those car mats. Well make sure you get the right ones. I know. Ask, can these be changed if they're not right? Keep the bill. Yes. Keep the bill. I'll take the jars. I've got some jars there's s bottles and things for the erm I've got milk bottles that I, you know, when I bought the odd bottle I've still, oh and I don't know wh how to get rid of them! I've still got one milk bottle left. Well I've got three because sometimes they, they haven't got milk in the Co-op and they haven't got milk in the, in Iceland Mm I call at Louie's and he Oh! had bottled milk. I didn't know they sold them. Yes! Yes. Erm so I've bought a few bottles and I don't Well take them, take them back. Is there a crate there or what? Take them back there. Oh I never thought! Yes, I never thought. That's an idea. I wonder if that has, does that milkman still come round here? Has he got any customers left ? I don't I think he does, I think he comes late at night, Paul er said cos sometimes he's up watching videos or whatever Oh I've heard the milkman erm I've heard bottles rattling early in the morning but I, sort of one o'clock, two o'clock but I hadn't cos I was sort of lying in bed sort of late noticed who it was one night when Paul came up and I wasn't asleep and I saw like this bright light Mm and Paul was coming up the stairs, I said is that the police, is that a police car? And er he said no, it'll be the milk, it's the milkman, he comes at this time. So it must be that one Mm mm because the other chap comes about half past eight in the morning, nine o'clock. You had a good day? Yes thanks good what are those little ones doing?you all by yourself Martin?, Martin where are the, where's Richard?, big Richard Gone home, his dad came well where was I?, oh, must've been when I went to the loo Have you had a drink Martin? yeah hello Hello what're you laughing at?, with those two James and Richard, I've just come in the door and they want Beethoven music on, Mozart music well very cultured children and they're wanting Joanna won't be coming after school ah you've remembered to tell me today have you? pick her up why where's she going? to the library I've got to go to the library myself right, well I'm just making you some coffee, it'll be, it'll, nearly ready if you want to put the Beethoven music on for them right, thank you, I'll go and check which the tapes on I went to the loo and Ron's been and collected Amy and Richard that sounds good and I, I I, wouldn't have known they'd gone oh I said to Martin where's Richard? Rebecca's with the two little ones isn't she? yes and Sally unclear read them things what what's er do you want me to do? I want you to come here erm I'm coming I want I want to tell you a secret go and tell me a secret then who's telling secrets? James is telling me a secret oh tell me a secret then you've got secrets? which one's Mozart? oh you listening to the moonlight sonata? no, er not yet, ah is that the moonlight sonata? mm can you say, can you say moonlight sonata yeah I want to hear James say moonlight sonata what?, what did you say? er, a I don't know what you're saying that's all jumbled up he wants some Mozart on now he's trying to say it say moonlight moon, moonlight that's it, sonata we'll put Mozart on now for ya then sternata not sternata,sonata sonata that's it, say it again, stop kicking the piano, say sonata, if you're going to kick the piano, you'll have to come back round here or you'll come out of this room I jumped well come away then, you don't kick the piano that's not I won't what they're for, nor is Sally supposed to eat crisps in this room, go in the other room please I don't wanna, I don't vacuum in here every night say, say , that's not Beethoven though James no he asked for that's Mozart Richard wanted Mozart on oh, Mozart's Jim's favourite no what's he got?, tt I know he keeps going like this with it, he keeps going what d'ya do, what's Richard doing? he keeps going what're you doing Richard? don't fiddle with the speaker pet come round here to me for a minute I just want a he's pale isn't it?, look at his face I know come here, let me, come here and have a cuddle from me, you're just wanting to look at what pet? I just want to look I still don't know what you want to look at, you want to look at what? I want to look at your things you want to look at my things, what things do you want to look at? I want look at your things those Chinese put them all back in, you tell me which who's that? the ornaments? who's that? yes Mozart clever boy, who's that one? before when he did open the drawer Beet Beethoven, clever boy erm with all the records in Beethoven and said no Richard don't do they, so James goes and does it what's that? that's Tchaikovsky that one and Richard goes no Rebecca just told me not to do it, so you shouldn't that's a big word that's Tchaikovsky isn't it do it either and this one oh that one if I go to look at something that's Bach in the supermarket and I pick it up to have a look Bryony says don't touch that's naughty, don't touch Ann, put it down at once clever boy what do you specially want to look at Richard? want to look at the oh it's really a pen holder that erm is it? crystal heart, yes no what?he didn't, no that was a silver wedding anniversary present from Dorothy who used to work with Jim yes Betty , I'm sure it was from Dorothy well I know it's a long time ago I'm driving the mini bus oh I'll get your coffee on Thursday, for the elections er I know someone who has a P S V licence, Doug, just got it, mind he's does voluntary driving already for age concern at er, where, it's not in I can't remember where it is he's applied to the Metropolitan police, he's going down for an interview in June Ann have you had your coffee yet? I'm just going to get it what are you doing Sal? just reading this book it's a funny place to read a book in the kitchen lening , leaning on er, on there there's a drink there look on the draining board for you if you haven't had one mm no, no Richard there you are dear thank you there's a video on for you and then you say right it's finished now it looks like a robin that er doesn't it? it isn't though look at them dancing to Mozart these two you funny boys not there James not on there please no not on, not on there and don't touch those ornaments please cos those are my expensive ones highly intellectual children these two yeah it's come off the handle oh he's pulling the don't James please, leave the horse alone. I don't know, your brother's a menace Martin look this is brilliant what is it? it's a ghost school it is a ghost school? do you like it? do you like it Rebecca do you know if Amy took her poster? no I don't know she didn't I don't know oh take your tie off take your tie off what? cos I don't want to hurt myself, because the, the badge there and that's what he say oh Jim Jim's badge on his tie, yes so he, he knows, come on then, no don't leave the doors open, I don't like polishing don't like polishing they need polishing though at home if I do some housework I get money for it cos I mum have you got any ironing? don't mum oh blimey I like ironing oh Rebecca, I can think of five million things I'd rather do Rebecca says she likes ironing I certainly don't I don't, huh she won't when she's bigger huh what pet? I've come in for the polish you coming for the what? I'm coming for the for the polish, well it's, it's very kind of you, but it doesn't matter, thank you all the same I'll I, I want to rub it I'll tell you what I'll give you a duster if you want to rub it, will that do? just gimme a duster here, if you want, there, that'll do, give it a good ru , I think that's the right one, give it a rub with er, oh no it isn't, hang on, that's got or something on it bye, bye where's the, where's the soft, are you going? yeah here you are I'll give you this look, this is a nice soft cloth, you can give it a rub with that oh dear got everything hello Marilyn hi he'd come to get a cloth, they're in the front room with Jim, the, he couldn't get in the door, they're saying, we, I want, we want Beethoven music, we want Mozart music, so Jim's in there with them and they will not leave the cabinet of the music centre oh you know the, the things alone and I said get your hands off those doors I don't like polishing, so he's come for a cloth and the polish so he can it yes, so I've giving him a, a cloth to go and rub it with you do not dry this hair properly mm well teacher doesn't even give us oh give us time to get dressed, she says oh hurry up now and we've just come out the bath they all complain of that mind, that there, that there isn't time to get dressed, to dry their hair properly we, we've only just got out the bath and then she says come on hurry up now off you go now oh oh well, Joanna's at the library yes remembered to tell me thank you very much er there was something else tomorrow is Tuesday, are you going swimming? is that what your going, is that what you're telling me, is that what, is, that was what you were trying to remember no I'm not going swimming tomorrow, too busy tomorrow , it right, then and Wednesday on the open day, you're going after school yes, I was supposed to be going the morning well up until ten o'clock off, to go and see the assembly because er the lady I've been replacing is back, so that means we have somebody spare around, but we've got two people off this week oh you know I'll go and collect them early anyway so, well you don't have to, I mean it's you know I know but when, when the others are going there's mm, I, I mean I told them I went the in the morning that was it, I wouldn't be able to get too early yeah there're, there are very few left mm, mm and I once went in to collect some and erm, I think it was Mrs said oh good have you come to take them away or something like that cos there was, there weren't many left in the school so I well if you don't mind that would be I, I said well is it alright if I take them because I've not actually come to see their work mm and the parents are coming after school, oh that's fine she said, we don't do very much no so it's ever so, have you polished it? I, I, shall I come and polish your we can, can I just rub the lipstick off the end of your nose, where I kissed you? there oh so I'm not looking forward to breaking the news no, no cos she just told me this morning you were going to see her work in the morning . and what's, Richard's been, did you give him that duster? he came and asked for the duster and the polish he's been he said I want a cloth and the polish he's been dusting I'll go and switch it off bye bye Marilyn there, you putting it away now and that, I'm, I'm just polishing now no that's not, that isn't polish anyway I'm just polishing you're working very hard aren't you?you're a hard worker I'm ju my coffee's got cold, that hasn't stayed warm very long has it?, perhaps I didn't heat it up hot enough to start with, I'll warm it up a bit. Er might do it, oh that's very kind of you, you're dusting all my kitchen cupboards? do the drawers as well I'm, I'm dusting your kitchen cupboards, I'm dusting your kitchen cupboards and your cup cupboards you're a very, very helpful boy, are you feeling happier now? what's the matter with him? he's, he's not very well, he's fi , look how pale he is, he's pale, James is quite pale as go on upstairs say what you've finished with oh, er well the two I've finished with are together mm I, I, I I want why a drink of milk you want a drink of milk I do well do you, well try again, mind your fingers and well please may I have some milk please you certainly may have some milk thank you, please can I have some milk please alright, let's find your cup there it is that, yes, but you can't get it out, you'll spill it on ya, right, close the fridge door please, you're not supposed to go in the fridge either are you?, you're supposed to ask me if you want them, look you're letting all the cold out of the fridge ah, get out of the freezer what shall I do with you? nothing what shall I do with you? nothing look James I'll get cross, now leave the fridge and the freezer, closed please nothing here , here you are, here's your drink of milk where are you?, here you are I'm dusting please give the, no don't fight,b ,ge Richard's doing the dusting, let him have the duster, he asked for it yes I'm making it all nice and clean oh lovely I'm making you all sparkling clean is it? that's lovely I wanna rub the washing machine you want to what with the washing machine? I wanna rub it with the cloth you want to rub it with the cloth rubbed it with the, with the cloth look, you're going to spill that milk if you're not careful mm, no look, you're going to have it on the floor, will you hold it up straight please or I might have to scream, shall I scream?, it's alright Richard he didn't spill any you, you, you don't need to wipe the floor he didn't spill it what's that Ann?oh a new book, new book it's er colostomy oh yeah bags it belongs to Jim really, I just acquired it Martin I think your comic's here somewhere, or did I there you are, remember to take it home with you please, good boy so, do you want the you're finished with? yes but, are you finished with that one?, or do you want it out again? I haven't read that one you want it out again erm, let me have a look, I don't think I've read this one there's two on the floor and the others that was the other one, the one I've just given you, A Wagon Load of Monkeys, the other two is, were on the floor I've read those two I haven't read that one, I'll have that one out please is Bryony having a what's he doing with a knife?, I know it's not a sharp one but nevertheless, you don't, scrape is Bryony cupboard doors with a knife is Bryony gonna have her hair short or just trimmed? well her mother was hop you're being a pest James, er her mother was hoping to have it just below her ears, but just below, I'm getting my hair, hair cut now cos it's getting far too thick. look, come out of there please, there's nothing in there for little boys is there? look at all this mess I know I when I make chutney I use look you'll smash all the enamel off that casserole and it's a pretty one, I don't want it, why don't you have a run around outside? no come on let's go outside and have a run about I don't wanna go out with my coat well get your coat then, you can put I show Sally how you can put your coat on have you seen him put his own coat on Sally? erm, no where's his coat?, are you coming outside? Jim yes where'd you want this, the post?, that the, before they stab each other with it oh that sounds like he's in the cooker is he oh look James, what's this book? do you want strangulating?, or hanging upside down on the clothes line by your toe nails? no or beating till your nose bloods vinegar that's what Jim's mother always threatens to do to people thank you it's Sally's hair band your hair band yes, oh, Richard looks more cheerful, he's jumping up and down, not on the road, come back in this gate. Oh Jim you've left them stay there with Jim, James come along, back this way please come back horror,I can still run fast, faster than you, come on, good boy, you're not to run away, come along, here's your mummy coming look there's mummy I've got James Jim, have you got Richard? yeah urgh Jim went to put something in the garage I, I, I want and these two escaped oh look I want sshh, look, there's Paul look, there's Paul cleaning his car there's your mummy urgh let's have a look at Bryony I've brought you some cream cakes, I'm very grateful Dorothy well oh look at pretty Bryony one for you and one for Jim urgh thank you very much, no you're not running away I go back down look at your pretty, look at your pretty sister, look at your pretty sister, she's got her hair cut shorter, isn't she pretty? I've squashed your cake I want, I want I'm gonna squash your son so it's alright, if he doesn't stop twisting my arm round I wanna go and I think that's a load better pardon? is it alright? I wanna go and yes it looks nice mind, she took a lot of time over it aha, Richard's cheered up, he was a bit miserable ride the bike he says I wanna go with mummy, but he's, he, no, in that gate, in that gate has Jim got hold of Richard's stuff? I wanna yes oh I believe so where's the l lock gone? oh dear, I wanna play there, it's down there oh and you know that Jim recorded on one of his cassettes some programmes for Martin mm yeah you run away that's to replace you must never do that the you're such a good boy video, I'm saying that's to replace the video you used cos you record programmes for Martin mm and there's a spare one if you, ooh she's just fallen over I, I wanna go I want you in here I want the cars and bikes let Jim well you haven't had I want the cars and bikes you'll enjoy doing that will you let Jim through the gate I want oh she is now I want the cars and bikes out you, you can't have the cars and bikes out, you're going home now, mummy's come to get you, you're going home for your tea oh Jim have we got a meeting tomorrow? a meeting oh tell mummy I want to play on the bikes what? I want play on the bikes I don't know what you're saying, er you're mumbling erm I want to ride on a bike I want to ride on a bike please you can't have a bike today please can I have the cars and bikes out why's he mumbling like that all the time? please no I'm sorry but you can't have the cars and bikes out because it's tea time and you're going home for your tea, Bryony's had her hair cut and mummy's come back there's look Hello, which one is it? which one do you think?who are you?, tell who you are what's all the babies called again? what's your name? what's the babies called?, erm, erm they're not babies any more now are they really? Bryony , Bryony, James and Bryony, James and, what's your brother called? Bryony and James Bryony and James and Richard Richard yes that's right he's, he's, James? are you James? I am I am, I am I knew you would be James because he said his brother's name and, I know it's Keith, it must be James you're not to climb on this gate, look there's a little tiny bit of rust there already can she come in I'll put you in he car no I don't wanna go in now what have I done with me car keys, I'm covered in hair oops, oh golly, look at that James you hold my hand Richard, my goodness you're like grease lighting aren't you, a pair of slippery eels, your poor mum's trying to run after your brother in high heels are you staying at my house tonight James? bye, bye James can you get hold of Richard please and I'll go back and get Bryony Bryony she's in the house, Bryony come oh that's a really good girl come on pet, in the car, clever girl, isn't she pretty? she's had, she's had her hair cut, isn't she pretty?, Eran thinks your hairs pretty, jump in the car, tea time oh my doll oh my doll oh my doll, where's the doll? where's your little do ? where are you, where are in my pocket oh where's my doll mummy's got them in her pocket there in my pocket oh they're in no they're not, there the, oh they're there they're in the front of the car they're in the car so if there's anything you said they like to watch it, if you want to tape anything for them you and me isn't on at the moment they love Rosie and Jim, but that's on a Monday oh our video doesn't work, it needs replacing oh well if I'm in I'll try and remember but I mean don't worry I mean they might be to tape things on a Tuesday, it's just that if you come across anything, don't go scouring yes, no the erm, the two o'clock thing that they used to watch, well erm story time it was once and er well it's not for my house, it's for yours oh you know just to then you, you and me came back on, but it's finished and it hasn't been replaced, it's are you out of breath look at that, she's just fastened James in and he's undone his straps oh oh he's got on, what's he doing? putting the fiddling with the gears phew cor, huh they know how to open the windows open the door I know and everything well look how quickly Richard learnt to operate my video, got to have the child lock on it now all the time yeah except I forget to put it on and then he twiddles, twiddles with the er right blue library ticket I haven't seen anything with it, it, I haven't I've put them down, I can't see them, I brought them down when I brought where were you erm, I'll help you to look what? I can't hear you what you doing? you didn't pick up Jim's library tickets did you? we did you I got them, them library tickets no haven't got any library tickets you haven't I haven't got any, yeah sorry we haven't got any library tickets oh alright, he's put them down somewhere and he can't find them, and he thought perhaps you might of picked them up, cos you're always picking things up you shouldn't aren't you? I got this at Woolworths you've what?, you got what at Woolworths? we, we have, we haven't got any library tickets oh so we haven't what do you want to do tomorrow when you're at my house? we, can I come tomorrow please? yes what are you going to do? I want, I want, I want paint strawberry you're painting strawberry, how would you do strawberry? strawberry and cheese strawberry, strawberry strawberry and straw and cheese strawberry and cheese urgh that doesn't sound very nice to me, I like strawberry cheese cake though he's telling me something about strawberry and cheese oh good my book of Cluedo, ow ow I want my door closed alright put your arm in and I'll close your door, I've had a I'm sorry I hope I haven't made you late mm are we having dinner when we come back Ann? I don't know, depends what you want to do, I can prepare it now actually there's only Sally left is?, is it only you left Sal? yeah why don't we eat when we come back? I know but I can warm mine up in the microwave, have you got a meeting tonight? no oh tomorrow night erm I can't hear for Dorothy's car, what did you say? is he going I think I'd better I said thank you for the cake oh your very welcome, thanks I'm saying there's Jim going to the library in the car, the lazy lump, take him all of seven minutes to walk there I could never of got them and got her hair cut cos she did do it slowly and got it level yeah right, see ya tomorrow, bye everyone which doors Jim gone in? er we'll go round the back, cos I don't know if he opened the front oh you have to move fast haven't ya to catch those three? well two especially right I can put the lock in found it I put it behind so stop the kids so I know wonder well you should know if ever you've lost anything ta la bye see you shortly did you hear what I said, I think your, I don't know if you'd gone back in the house when I said, I'll prepare, I'll prepare the dinner I'll have it with you when you come back tonight I mean I'll prepare I'll, I'll have it when you, I, I'll have it with you when you come back alright, whatever you say, right there doesn't seem to be so much mess as usual in fact I might not even need to vacuum the floor, need I?, if I pick that bit of paper up off there what is it erm I've forgotten right are you watching this? yeah right, I'll shall go and do some work in the kitchen then the Ann's upstairs I'm here Ah I went to the loo I've booked the Easter holiday wrong well oh, phew Bob's put down for the Wednesday and the Thursday off, so it's the Tuesday and the Friday I'm stuck on the second week right is that alright? yes, yes cos I've got the first week off, but it's just, I'm just stuck for Tuesday and Friday of the second week, you've got the Mayday holiday off and in the summer I've got the first three full weeks of the summer holiday off mm, mm so I'm stuck for the next three weeks and half a week because I, you know I get the, August bank holiday I get two days, saying that they're probably going up to Grans for a week in the holidays er sometime to stay with her particularly with her being on her own as well this year yes so erm, will that be a problem no the first three weeks, three and a half weeks no cos your on holiday our holidays the first two weeks of the school holiday well mines the first two weeks and I'm keeping them off those two days that they're supposed to be at school yes, yes so I'm actually taking the first three weeks and you're taking the last yeah two of mine yeah, yes so we're there you are doing it alright yeah, right okay then, we shall go, I hope the weather keeps up because I want a good week next week, we're gonna work out where we're gonna go for a couple of days aren't we? mm got any good suggestions?, we were gonna go to the Hancock museum and see the monsters of the deep, but it ended in March oh that's right, there's there's yeah a new exhibition where? at the Hancock the is there? erm, oh what did Pat tell me?, she just told me yesterday oh was it dinosaurs? yes yes I saw it on Sunday yes yes it's dinosaurs well we could go and see that what? the dinosaurs exhibition at the Hancock and the other things there, cos it's a good museum, then we could have er lunch at MacDonalds and a look round the we could go to the museum as well, that's free yes if I can find my way there I'll probably have to do me tour of the quayside to start at the beginning where we went and go all the way round yes and then I'd know where I am, huh, I just can't go to it from this end , right I'm out tonight, I'm at the joiners with friends so mm, mm I'd better go and get our tea I'm doing ours so we'll go when I come back oh you're going to aerobics from me leaping about you still doing your? yeah right see ya Ann, thanks right Hello I haven't got much done, I've got all the cups and things washed, but oh Catherine's just phoned me wait until she gets her phone bill pay the phone erm, I'll get, have I got time?, I've got time to do the potatoes before I go, erm have they around a bit? she said yeah, she, erm, the reason that women who does the earrings couldn't make them for me, was that she buys all the parts, well the flower earrings she makes, she buys all these parts and she ex assembles them which ever parts you want mm, mm the colours and everything and the order you want them, but the little figures erm, she buys them and she just paints them, and that's how she could make er the ones for Shirley er for me, erm she gets little soldiers and she can paint them in the camouflage dress yes you know the, er the para smock and er with the red hat, and she dyes the red hat but in, no it's not red, it'll, I think it's military police, erm, that's how she can do it with er, erm a maroon beret, because she said to me did I want a peaked cap? and I said no the, the er, erm maroon beret, so it shows its the parachute regiment what, oh, erm, there's something I've just thought of though, when they wear the er camouflage things, is that when they wear the maroon belt round?, isn't the kaki belt with the dress uniform? anyway she said, er Catherine said she was surprised that the woman couldn't do it for me, before the end of June but Catherine, cos I didn't know Catherine sells stuff for her that's nice that's how Catherine gets such a lot of stuff by post she, she actually I know she does, she does and, er, ah but you spoke to Catherine on the phone and I was out, and you didn't tell me that part, and erm you sure I didn't but Catherine hasn't got her number you have well I have because we have erm, we've got that Durham and Wearside telephone directory, so I gave Catherine the number and she said she's got to ring her tonight about something I think what Catherine must of done was, well she must of send orders to her by post oh cos they're not X directory if we can get hold of the number, er so she's going to say to her could she do it any quicker and I said well the woman said if she could do it any quicker she would ring me, she asked for me phone number. You know I'm hungry, I feel slightly sick, I, I think I'll eat er, what, a digestive biscuit, it's a bit late isn't it? aye, to start eating now no I, no I'll walk round, I'm meeting erm Cathy at the bottom of the road, or outside her house, whatever, Lorraine's not going again yeah and he gave me three good I can't remember my what was it? oh what, have a because we're going to another chap had said are you sure I've ordered this milk and it was this young man who's serving you see, and so, the, the more senior librarian she says she said it reminds me of interesting reading, was about erm, it was a very sort, it was, it was an but it was about architecture of, of Italy, you see, it was quite a detailed thing, you know really good detail you mean its kind for architects that's right serious students or architecture I don't mind aha Marilyn got had got cos it's oh about, you know with the same writer, I always buy Sackville, something to do with Sackville, you know the erm, er, what they call it? the Sackville West? that's right, that's, that, I think it was so, I mean that she was so it must be just something to do with gardens as well, cos she was a gardener wasn't she?, yes yes erm among lots of other things I thought was one of the other books I ordered for you with regard to what they call it mm, mm right, there's the potatoes done anyway get them in some water er, well I've got to go erm last week and even er oh well if you've got erm, they're are well I think twenty might be all I need Brian would of only need twenty, I told what? you that Brian would only need twenty that's all, apart from what I need that, that was to do, behind Algate that you said you were doing no I didn't say that I didn't, I wasn't doing Algate Court no, no, I was just doing the front, he did behind those well he was twenty short well Brian will then needs twenty and I need about twenty as well, so cutting, you know the hill gate, the, the erm, the houses, you know as you go into the park, passed the Joiners Arms, you know those houses up there. Was that Dorothy? That was Dorothy, yes so she's got about twenty left she's got about twenty left, yes oh, right, erm, look I'll have to go and get changed, or I'm gonna be late I've been to oh where's that digestive biscuit I was gonna eat I've been to house oh yeah I've been to take the registers there to hill mm, mm and I've also spoke, I've spoke to John this afternoon, he said yes, this morning I mean about taking them yes, he said yes definitely take them, erm and I suggested that Jack goes in well it can't do any harm, why doesn't he go up when he's in on Wednesday, well he's coming to the market well he's on Wednesday, why doesn't he go in while then? yeah, well it doesn't matter when he goes, as long as he goes in you're not in are you? half day Wednesday oh you won't be able to, anyway I've gotta get changed quickly right oh I need a pair of clean socks don't pinch any more of mine I'm not pinching your socks, I'm using me own white ones oh which is a pair here?that one goes that's a pair what are all these bits at the back for? they belong to the triplets right Right, money money, money, money, there's my money and that what else do I need?, I can't think I need those Do you want anything recording or are you alright? I'll be back by ten past seven, erm what else do I need? if there's nothing you want recording what do you want me to do with the dinner? erm just keep turning okay right, I'll just put me money in my pocket but I've still got but I have to bring am to put it on? what? at seven o'clock? you can if you like, erm, what else do I need? oh heck is that the time er I don't know what you need now, you've got your mat, you've got your money, you've got your coat oh I know you've got your socks pad and me pen I've got me what? you've got your money, you've got your mat, you've got your coat and you've got your socks I should hope so, I've got me socks on me feet so what more do you need? nothing got some tissues pardon? I've got some tissues in my pocket, er, right, I'm going then, see you later, bye right, ta la right What's he got oh he's got the box, he's climbed up and got the box with me Don't touch it now hey that's got my engagement ring, my eternity ring and oh oh dear me it's mine and it's got other rings in it, look I that you'll have to put them up on the ceiling that's one a, that one's I only did er that pet, you must not touch that, you're not to climb up and get things off shelves, you come out of the cupboard ee what a life mm, mm no, I really must go what you doing? anything interesting I'm knitting I'm knitting, I'm doing a matinee coat for this child in Australia who's due on the twenty second he's in that cupboard again look, huh twenty second a ba er about a week before we go and I have a little toy for, for Geoffrey he's two mm, mm and I'm knitting a little lemon matinee coat oh, what's he got in his hand? what have you got this time? he's got the washer instructions oh no they've already got the front torn off it I I love their jumpers yes they're nice aren't they? they, they not home knit are they? no they're bought ones they're beautiful we'll have to, we'll look we'll have a story this afternoon, if we don't get out this morning it could be pouring down yes and we've got to go to buy some milk yes when is the, the sale in is it next Saturday? which sale? well the big sale, you know with the furniture and everything I did big rugs I didn't know there was one every year they have one oh by the lions, you know the lions have it oh , I haven't seen it advertised it's usually at the beginning of June, it wasn't on Saturday so it must be next Saturday there was a stall in on Saturday, but that was for the erm, was it Saturday? there's er it was for the er cat scanner and it was run by the Co-Op it was, it was just oh I saw that sign outside the Co-Op yeah, this is, this is same sort for the er Billy don't town hall tomorrow Billy don't well what's there? just oh, half us, listen we're not having the three billy goats gruff just know, because we're going to go out, would you like to put your coat on? I don't well you can't go out without it so I'll I'll shall have a look in there yes oh I've locked the door again, I've gotta keep the door locked you see of course I once went to get the buggy out and I'd accidentally left the key in the door oh it's in the garage and Richard locked me out and I oh yes I had to go and get Doug, I had to run down to school I know you had to burst the door open I know I'd had to smash the door, he had to smash the door open with a spade, the lock for me, cos, he, he, he couldn't get, he tried er taking that panel out at the bottom and he couldn't get it out and I didn't really want him to smash the double glazed glass, in fact it, that would of been very difficult oh you'd try anything erm, frosted double glazed glass would of been difficult your flowers are nice aren't they? they are, yes yeah, right I shall go then yeah and continue with my knitting and I'm painting as well oh, mm bye, bye busy, right, bye, are you gonna shout bye, bye to Mrs ? bye say see you another day see you another day bye see you another day right, bye bye shut the door again, are you going to put your coats on? not me, no we are not no you are not, well you can't come out with me then without coats on I am, I am can you? what love? you're gonna put yours on, what a clever girl You're standing on your rain cover look what you trying to reach I, I mm?, what you doing?, will you boys come back please and put your coats on? I want my coat on, I want my coat on, I want my coat on you want your coat on, how about you having a try and see if you can put yours on, like Richard and James do you think you can? I can stand that up look if you break that mirror I won't be able to see to put my contact lenses in. Who's putting their coats on?oh they've gone to the toilet what you doing?, looking at your pretty face mm we'd better go and see what your brothers are doing they're putting them coats on you, no they're not putting their coats on, they've gone to the toilet, Richard can go to the toilet by himself actually can't he?he's a clever boy isn't he?can you get your coat for me?, you get your coat now, I'll put it on for you I hope you haven't broken that, have you?, pick it up, carefully give it to me look oh right we'll put it back right over there, here's your toilet roll there if you want I need the toilet you need the toilet again?, you've just been toilet mummy I need alright pink potty, need the pink potty you don't need the pink potty, the pink potty's right outside the toilet door need the toilet, need the toilet you don't need the toilet I need to come on the pink potty, I need a I'm here, what, wait I'll see what they're doing, what are you doing boys? in the shower pardon? we're in the shower in you're in the shower we're in the moon you're in er on the moon you're on the moon we, we in Richard's in the shower and your on the, alright I'll close the door I come in you want to go to the toilet first? me, me, me going me going to the moon you want the toilet first Bryony you said, alright, go on then what are you going to I the moon your, that's the moon is it? I the moon alright, do you want me to close the door? yes I close I go and get a rain cover oh, where is it? I'll go and get it her rain covers over there, it's, ooh, where is it? I don't know where it is, where's Bryony's rain cover James?, oh it's down here look, it's on the kitchen floor you've put it is this your space suit to go to the moon?, is that your space suit Richard? ah, what is it your space suit, if you're going to the moon you need a space suit on if you're going in a space ship, er thank you, thank you that's mine er you don't play with my aerobics mat that's mine space it isn't, it's Bryony's space suit, give her, otherwise she'll be squeaking cos she wants her own, here's yours James, you have your own, give that one to Bryony, here's your space suit Bryony, you'll need this if you're going to the moon me look Richard's got his on, here's yours I want my red hat on, I want my red hat on, I want my red hat on wait wait a minute, look this is how you do it, do it as if you're in the buggy you see, you put your head through there, put your, there now look at Bryony, with that red peaked hood and, and the front of this rain cover hanging down and the back bit all punched up at the back you look like a red chicken you look more like a red chicken Bryony oh Richard be careful not to bump into each other oh I'll get me ready I want my suit on you want what? I want my suit on has it come off?, your space suits come off has it?, alright, here, well stand still or I can't put it on while you're jumping about come here jumping bean, don't you want it on? I do well come and get it on then, here it is, there you going back into space been on the eh I've been on the you're going where?, you're going back to the moon, oh have you co , have you come back from the moon now? I haven't you haven't I thought you had, have you come back down to earth?, you landed? you're going back to the moon? Are you still on the moon? We've been to the moon you've been to the moon, are you coming back yet? we going to Ashington you're going to Ashington now we're going to Ashington right, I'll see you when you come back we're gonna come back from Ashington, we're gonna come back from Ashington when, when it's dinner time we'll come back you're gonna come back from Ashington when it's dinner time, look it's starting to get brighter outside. Ashington's not in the bathroom, come on, downstairs please, Bryony while we're up here lets you go to the loo, you might as well, look when your upstairs already, you said you needed a wee so you might as well go now while we're upstairs I need a poo do you pet? I need a wee, wee alright, shall we take this space suit off you while ya yes, you can, ooh what's he getting in the bathroom, I can hear something, you sit there and see what they're doing, where are they?, where've have you got we're vacuuming you are not, will you come downstairs please? I did my come down then I did a wee on my thingy you've done a wee on your thingy, oh don't worry, we'll wash it, down the stairs boys now, quickly please look at it good boys , what look at it look at it, I will wash your hand in two seconds, when you're ready, here, I'll just wipe it with a bit of loo roll for now and we'll wash it when your ready my finger there you are, drop that in the toilet can you please?look at them, right, down these stairs this instant, look be careful what you're doing with that round you, carry it downstairs please, Richard, take, take your space suit off while you walk downstairs otherwise you're gonna trip over it, here I'll drop them down the stairs for you there we are you go down those stairs ooh I've got lots of them in you've got lots of what? I've got lots of them in got lots of them in, have you?, you've got a piece stuck to you, you look as if you're making confetti tiny bits of paper I want to put it on me I'll just stand here look so I can hear what Richard and James are doing downstairs gent what pet? I don't want right just potty, I'm going on the little potty you're going on the potty instead of the toilet now are you? potty well you need, you want the pink one potty make your mind up potty well you need need to get at the front of it look, sit down, pull your trousers down further, that's it I wanna do a poo well you sit there then, I'll come back in two minutes I, I can't hear what Richard and James are doing no, I, you put in er what are you doing boys? put in, put a what? can you have a not yet, not yet I'm coming Bryony, I think she's shouting now, don't come downstairs with your trousers round your ankles ooh oh what a clever girl, stand still while I wipe your bot, ooh come here, bendy over, touch your toes, clever girl, down you go, that's it, what a clever girl, right just hold on a minute, wait a minute, let me put some water in here and then, oh dear I did a poo in the pink potty, I did a poo in the pink potty you did, yes I'll just give this potty, move, oh I'm gonna fall over your feet, I'll just give it a rinse out and dry it I did a poo you did, you're the cleverest girl I done another poo you did, you're the cleverest girl in the world aren't you?there's your space suit where are you?, come here while I pull your pants up, pants up first, pants up first lets run some water wait a minute your trousers are not pulled up right both hands in a little bit of soap on, now rub them together good rinse, get all the soap off, right shake, rattle and roll, hands washed, I mean dried sorry I'm in your bathroom what? in your bathroom yes you're in my bathroom now then I'm in your bedroom my bedroom?, this isn't, I don't sleep, oh dear, somebody's crying downstairs Richard lets yes it's Richard yes it's Richard, wait a minute, lets go down and see what's the matter with Ri , what's the matter Richard? Richard what's the matter Richard? James is in my in my seat James is in your seat is he? he is oh, are you in your brother's seat? I'm not, I'm in me own well there's plen there's plenty of room there look, you can get beside him look Richard, Richard, I want you to put your coat on now anyway, coat on please now no I don't want my coat we are going out now and I want your coat on, here we are no I don't want my coat there's yours James I don't, I don't want my coat on we've got to go and buy some milk I don't want my coat on no er you put yours on please James for me I don't wanna go I'm here Richard, what's the matter? look, where you going? he's going in my seat again he's going in your seat ag , look, you don't, you, I've told you, you want your coats on you come, you come with me a second, just come here a second with me, you just stand beside me, come here, oh poor Richard he just come back are you feeling niggly?, mm he just being naughty, he just being very naughty to me is he? he's been naughty to me, cos he not letting me in, he, he not letting me in his coat either is he not being kind to you today? he's not being kind to me oh dear what colour what is? I think your brother and sister are about to fight now what's the matter Bryony? smacked me, he smacked me who isn't nice? James smacked me James is not nice he smacked me what colours this one? and what colours this one?, what colours this one? you tell me the colours what colours this one? what colour is it? is it pink?, is it, is it pink? it is pink you're right, clever boy, what colour are the others? how about erm come here please Bryony jump up, you've got your shoe off look are you two fighting? come here he smacked me what, he what? he smacked me he smacked you did he?, are you smacking your sister? oh look I've got all the tissues are used up, I'll have to go upstairs, let's see if there's one in my shopping bag, your nose is streaming Bryony you can't get out James, it's locked, Richard I mean, sorry come on, let me in, here lets wipe your nose look it doesn't matter now because we're going out for some milk, here turn your face round good girl, yeah oh cheer up, come on mm, poor Bryony come on, let's have this coat on have my coat on what love? are we going out the front door? er no we're going out the back door cos you're going in the buggy mm in the front door I can't keep three of you out of puddles if you're walking I want to walk and your trousers I'd be soaked before I want to walk you'll be freezing cold and wet no, you're not walking, not this time it's damp out there and it might rain again you need some wellies you three we need some wellies, yours my wellies are too big for you, I've got much bigger feet than you've got haven't I?, look you just compare do we need some wellies, do we need some wellies well when you're a bit bigger perhaps your mummy I'll buy some, you just look at your feet, compare your feet with mine look look at your feet, yes look, look at the size of your feet and then look at the size of mummy's, look, who's feet are biggest? mine yours, they're not, my feet are much, much bigger than yours, my feet are twice as long as yours naughty boy hit me , naughty boy hit me, naughty boy hit me I think your mum will buy you some when you are a bit bigger, I expect you'll have some next winter, when you go in the,at the moment you don't really need them do you? where's my dog gone? where's your dog gone? where's your dog gone? , I dunno where's my dog gone?, my dog gone? I think I'm gonna walk, I'm gonna walk where's my dog gone? James don't lick the window please James, when I said don't lick the window, I mean it who's got a biscuit? sucked it, dog it he did suck it, suck it oh he sucked his biscuit before, that's right, I put it in the bin didn't I? and I said to you don't eat it because Richard's been sucking it, lift your foot up please let's have your shoe back on again again, James, I don't want you licking the window please I, I what do you say to Richard?, what did, what did you say to Richard? it's been cleaned with er windowlene, we don't want you licking that in case there's any traces on it, apart from the filthy mess you make of the window, right, there's one coat on, are we at last beginning to get somewhere I ask myself I've got my coat on, I've got my coat on yes, Richard put your coat on please for me I've got it on, I've done where've you put it?come on look on your toes now, get up come on, stand here and put your, here you are, here's your coat, here's your coat, put it on please here's yours James, stand up please I don't want to I wanna put it on myself yes you put it on yourself then, you two boys are yawning, I'll just get the straps, where are they?, oh, oh right here we are I'm gonna walk you're not going to walk, you're going in the buggy stand up I'm gonna walk look it's no, it's no point, there's no point in arguing Richard because I don't wanna go well unfortunately it's not what you want I don't want to what's on the television? television I don't wanna go out pardon? television look your sisters trying to tell me something about the television, well the televisions not switched on though I don't want my straps on you're getting your straps on, stand up please no stand up please mines undone come on, no time for arguments, that's you zipped up, fasten your hood I'm not going in my straps good, James has got his coat on look, clever boy, right lets sort these out, lets see they're all tangled up together, there's yours Bryony, which are these?, James, this one's Richard's these are Richard's these are arms in I wanna come to your not the front is James's seat Richard I don't wanna go in the back look, yes you are, you er, you're mummy puts you in the front, but she's a lot taller than I am, and she can tip it up easier, I need James in the front because he's the lightest, you're the heaviest I don't want to sit and it's hard to tip the buggy up when I've got the heaviest it's, one in the front, it's easier with the lightest one let's have your reigns on he not sitting at the front I am the lightest one, you're the heaviest it is, it is yes you're the heaviest I'm not the heaviest if, you are, because you're bigger than James aren't you? I'm not bigger than you everybody's different sizes look at Jim, Jim's very, very tall isn't he? Ji Jim's a lot taller than your daddy and your mummy's taller than I am I've got a daddy, I've got a daddy, I've got a daddy and you just happen to be taller and heavier than James I've got a daddy to, I've got a daddy to you've got a daddy to, yes I'm not the heaviest today, I'm not the heaviest you are the heaviest pet no I am not Bryony let's have your straps on up the, what are you doing to her? he's doing to me oh, let's get out he's smacking me come on put your arms in he's smacking me I know he's he's smacking me oh, I know you naughty boy keep still he it's so hot hit me, he still hit me who hit you? Richard did no he said that Richard did hey, what happened there?, I want no more fighting or I might have to fight what shall I do with you? put him in the bin, put him in the bin put him in the bin, right put him in the bin put him in the bin we're not going in the bin are we? well there's plenty of room the, don't hit Bryony James, there's plenty of room he's hitting me again James, stop hit, hey, stop it, now, oh, are we gonna have one of those days where you go around beating up your brother and sister? I'm going to get the buggy can I on no, no, he, me get off her you're hurting her are we, are we are we going, are we go, wow, wow, wow, wow I'm going to get the buggy I'll help you will you I'll help you well if you run away, I'll tie you up, what? got these boots got what on? got these boots what did I say about going on the road if you're helping me, come back onto the path, hello I can hear a car, I think there's one gonna come round the corner not having the cars and bikes no, if it if it stays dry after dinner you can have the cars and bikes out we're gonna have wellies on we're gonna have wellies on who's going to have wellies on?, who's gonna have wellies on? let me open the gate the other way so I can get the buggy in wellies on right, come on, come on the buggy's ready now, hello, in the buggy's in the, jump in the buggy, come on James get in the buggy and I'll close this door, where have I put the lock?, oh it's not good we're gonna have to get a new garage door, that one nearly kills me lifting that up, scraping it along the ground, you're in are you?, oh very good, two of you in, Richard, come and get in, just a minute where's your, let me clip you in how're you stuck? I, I'm not you're not stuck, you're pretending, was that a joke?, Richard come on love I was pretending you're pretending as well are you? I wanna come in that one I wanna come in that one no James's is in the front put him in the back, put him in the back mm, mm put him in the back Richard come and get in please, Richard Richard come on in you jump, good boy I don't wanna go in the back get in please Richard I'm not going in the back, not in please Richard I'm not where's he gone, round the corner, come on in you get no, I just, no I'm I'm sorry, but I'll just have to lift you in then, one, two, three up he goes, ooh sit down please Richard I don't where's your shoe?you've lost your shoe, oh is that it?, there it is, put your feet down, let's have your shoe back on, you put your foot rest up and stop clanging it please that's how it goes you want it just like that, we'll have to put it up if you're gonna carry the milk back for me right let's clip you in who do I fasten in?, James listen, listen, what can you hear? can hear birds singing I can hear birds singing yes, yes, I can hear the birds singing I can hear birds singing I can't see them, can you see any?, oh I can see one on Marilyn's roof see one bird you can't see the garage is in the way turn round I can see one bird I can see one you can see one bird I see one bird oh I see one bird singing yeah, will you turn round straight please so I can clip in at this side good gir I can, I can hear a bird singing yes, now, shall we put the rain covers on or not? no we'll, we'll have to take them though no, no yes, we'll have to take them no oh look at the sky it's grey, the sun came out for a minute, but it's all grey again, oh, this sides ever so stiff my knees, hurt my knees what's wrong with your knees?, Richard needs his nose wiped I'll have to go upstairs and get some more tissues, who needs they're nose wiped?, Richard I do, I do, I do, mine wiped, mine wiped let me see you James, look up James mine wiped look up James, you're okay, I'm gonna put a bit of cream on you though let's put this tissue in the bin, right no are we ready?, let's have I want some on me yes I'll put some on yours I don't want that on, I don't want this on I want some on my nose you don't, oh look I've got cream on Rich James's coat, I'll have to wipe that off quickly I don't want it silly Ann alright you don't ne , actually you don't need your hood up, because it's ever so warm even though it's dull I don't want alright, you can leave it down wipe my nose I just wanna leave it down I want some on my face yes I'm going to put some on your face when I've got this rubbed into Richard's Richard's face is looking a lot better isn't it?, right dab, dab haven't got mine me coat dab, dab, dab, rub a dub, dub, three men in a tub, the butcher, the baker, the candlestick maker rub a dub, dub, three men in a tub, the butcher, the baker, the candlestick maker that's it, how are you turning round when I've got you strapped in?, are you, I've fastened it both sides I'm looking at the I'll have to adjust your straps I'm looking at just a minute, that bit isn't rubbed in, wait till I get something to wipe that bit off your coat who's going to carry my bag? I am I am I'm going to carry your bag here I'm going to I am just keep still well wait a minute I've got get me purse better make sure I've got some money with me hadn't I?oh there's plenty there here you are, oh don't take your shoes off Bryony, fasten them up look, here you are if you're carrying my bag for me I am oh Bryony said first I think, here you are I carry you're, you're going to carry the milk back James, right let's get these rain covers behind you I wanna I carry the milk, I wanna carry the milk well it's easier to carry it on the front ru font, oh, front foot rest can I, can I, can what's happened here? I don't want, I don't want that on oh that's right you don't want it on, I'm just going to put it behind you put behind me, I wanna carry the milk back, I wanna carry the milk back you, you can't carry, oh where's the think that goes on the back?, oh there, there we are, you can't carry the milk pet back because we can't put your foot rest up high like we can with the front one, so there's nothing to balance it on, and if you drop it, the big plastic bottle will burst open, won't it? put this rain hood and behind you I'm hiding, I'm hiding here you are James, put that behind you ah what's that on a? it's me wire you've got caught in nearly now then I just put me lipstick on Nine more tapes to go, fill. No, two. Two after this one. I thought they just did sides. One side, two side, three side, four side, like that. I didn't know Oh, oh, it took four sides, James, after this. Does it just have one, one side to each tape? No, two. I thought they normally had two, you see. Right. Now then let's see, where are we up to? What's the matter with you? I falled over on the living room. No, not I falled over I fell over. I fell over over the living room. You fell over the living room? Oh dear! O over the living room floor! You fell over me living room floor? Yes. Let me have a look at you. Did I get you washed? Who did I wash? I must have I've taken your apron off. You're drinking out of your mug the wrong, beaker the wrong way round. Bryony, did I get you washed? Let me have a look. Get me washed! I don't think I did. Let's have a look at your face. Come and get washed. Come and get washed, clever girl. Why are you drinking that? Oh look he's spilt milk all over. Shall I tell you something? I think I'll be glad when you go home today. Do you know that? Keep still. Careful. Right Bryony, there's just you to wash when I find something to wash you with. Where's it You are very, very good! Come out of that cupboard, please! Oh, your brothers are being baddies today, aren't they? Where're you going, Richard? baddie! Yes, you are bad. You haven't got your hands washed, love. And the other hand. The other hand. Don't squawk! You sound like a squeaky, squawky parrot. What? Yes, I'm taking your apron off. No, I want my apron off! Right. Wipe this one. Now where have they gone? What are you doing? I'm, I'm going from here because, cos cos all the kermuffle I know , Richard simply uses it No! as an excuse to get in the bedrooms and I said the bedrooms not the toilet to try and switch on the cassette player in the bedroom. Well James needs a wee cos he's already doing it. Yes. I want my shoes off. You don't want your shoes, down the Are you not going that way? stairs, please! The toilets are on that way. There's no toilets up those stairs. Oh! Down you come, Richard. He does, he likes to get in the bedroom and, and he fiddles on with the erm Mm, plays cassette. the cassette player if he gets a chance. What was that? What's Richard doing? Come out of the bathroom you two! Come out of the bathroom! Look! Look! Down the stairs, please. Down! Down the stairs, please! I need a wee! You need a wee, right. You, come out of that bath and down the stairs. Come on, your mummy's coming in a minute and daddy. Come on, let's have, oh! Who's that coming in the gate? Did I hear it? No. Come on, pet. Where are we? What's that? Oh, it's just a wooden train. Well you don't need the train while you're on the toilet, do you? I do! I do! I do! I've just seen Richard try to open the erm door to the piano Oh, I know he can though. He can't get in. He can actually. What? Want my pants up. You want your pants up? You haven't washed your hands yet. Don't want my hands washed. Oh yes you do! I don't. Oh, yes you do! Oh, yes you do I don't. Oh, I don't Oh yes I don't. You mean Oh, yes I don't. You're supposed to say, oh, no I don't. And I say, oh, yes you do. I don't! And then you say, oh, no I don't like Richard does. Yes, when you get a bit bigger we'll have to take you to a pantomime and then you'll be able to say that. Right, shake. Who's that? Oh, just the boys playing in the lobby. I think they're, I think they're I don't wanna Wait a minute! You're not going with wet hands. Perhaps they're going back in their space ship. back in the space ship. Right, off you go. What about this train, do you want it? Oh, he's pulled all this dirty washing out the basket No, not in there. Not in there! Let's not have every room in the house turned into a tip. One coat missing. Oh dear. Is that Jim back? Thought I heard Jim's voice. It wasn't. He said he was going delivering, he had a whole pile of stuff to deliver. Oh. I wonder what time he's coming back for his dinner then? Er, Bryony! Let me put your shoe on. Can I have your sh Are you, what are you in a you four? We all sitting down! I know you're all sitting down. What are you in? This was their space ship this morning. They had the plastic covers off the pram over them for space suits, didn't you? You were spacemen. They were Look! Look! going to the moon, weren't you! Ooh, that's a nice cuddle Wait a minute! You're falling over me! On the television. What's on the television? What was on the television? The man. A spaceman you mean? Er just be careful that you don't trap your fingers in this door, you two. You've done it before and your arms. Er, let's, let's, let's do it again What are you going to do again? They open the door and they say boo!look in the window at them Let's say boo! Let's say boo! You want to say boo as well? Are you all going out and leaving me in here? Don't, stop banging the door so hard! Boo! That's just what I need as well. Just what I need all your filthy fingers and, and mouth marks all over the glass top of the door. I can see you from here. You've got funny striped faces through this glass. Ha! Ha! Ha! I can see you! I can see, I can see Richard through the keyhole. I can see you through the keyhole, Richard! Whose is that eye? I could see you through the keyhole. Bo! Let's, let's say boo to Richard. Listen who I can hear, listen. Who's that? What can you hear? I can hear Mummy and Daddy I can, I can hear your mummy's voice are you not going to see her? She's not that way she's that way! Well, aren't you coming to see your, come and say hello to your mummy! Come on, say hello to mum. Go and give her a kiss. Come on, kisses for your mum. Go and give her a big cuddle. She's been at work all day! Don't,s oh. Come out of the car, button. how have they been? James has been a James today. Has he? I could've throttled them after dinner. Hello Richard! Mum! Hello. They fought over everything they could think of to fight over they were really niggly! Well James was. I thought maybe he was getting the same as Richard and Bryony had had, but he's cheered up. You've cheered up, have you? You've been a monster today? No You have been, James monster. Have you been a Jimmy monster? Yes, we had a carry-on at, at dinner-time. He would not stop hitting, slapping Richard across the face. Oh! I don't like the sound of that! So I, I made him swap places as, er, with Bryony and of course he wou he wasn't sitting there! He was gonna sit in his own seat. I said you can't cos you keep hitting Richard in the face for nothing! You won't let him eat his dinner! Was he, was he So naughty to you? so Richard's crying because he'd been hitting him the face. He's howling and scr w wailing cos I wouldn't let him go back in the same chair! Have you got a proper cuddle? So he ate his tea later and then he said to me I'm not gonna hit him any more. He didn't at teatime, did you? Good! And then they just had the bikes and cars to fight over. Ee, what a mess they've left you, Ann. Oh, we've been like this all, Amy and Richard tried to tidy it up. Well I tried to tidy it up before we went to school and they were flinging it all out again and there just wasn't time! Charming! So, I shall do it when they've gone home and then I'll, at least I'll know,that it won't it won't be being undone. I wanna go in the car! Is it Jim's birthday today? Tomorrow. Oh tomorrow. Get your shoes on popsy! Go in the car! You can go in the car when Bryony's got her shoe on. It's gone upstairs! It's upstairs is it? Whereabouts upstairs? I've just put it back on her? Are you not feeling well then? Oh Richard, James, James said can I have the hairbrush out. I said as long as you don't go near your sister. I didn't want to hear everybody running round the hair, room screaming, not having my hair combed, not! Have you got pretty hair now? And he's chasing them with a brush and saying, come here, an absolute mess! He said to her, not today this was a week or two back. She's going screaming, not get my hair done! He says come here, come here! You're an absolute mess! I wanna erm train. I wanna take it home! I wanna take it home! Can I take it home? Well that's Ann's train, sweetheart, that's not our train! She can take it with her. Do you want to borrow it? Yes, I want to borrow it You borrow it. You ask Ann if you can borrow it, please. May I borrow borrow the train, please? That's a good girl. borrow, please? Yes, you can borrow the train. Right, let's get your er shoe on and let's er get these boys away from you. Where's she put her shoe? I've just p is it near the front door because I've just put it back on her. When she came in and er It's here. Oh it's down here. train. train! It's a wooden train. It's a wooden train. It's a wooden one it's made of wood that train. I wanna take it home ! I wanna take it home! Yes, you're taking it home with you! And aren't you a good girl having your hair cut. She's still going on about it. Oh. Oh we've been telling her how pretty she is with her hair cut. Major operation! Martin, put the television off please. Martin, put the television off please, Martin! Thank you. How old's your granddaughter now, Hazel? Nine. Is she? Yes. Oh, here's Jim back. Martin, don't stand on the jigsaws please, there's a good boy. Where are your shoes, Martin? I don't know but Happy Birthday for tomorrow if I don't see you. Oh, thank you. Oh, I forgot to bring your card. He finishes at quarter-to-one tomorrow. I think. Jim. Get your shoes on please, Martin. Where's these children, are they going home? There's a kind of mystery here, wasn't there? A mystery and we still can't Well I did. The one I recorded for you I gave to your another one. There you are. I'm sure it's at home, Martin. No, there's another one! Well I don't know about that one then. Well there were two episodes on the one Bucky O'Hare video as I Oh, is that it? No, it's I didn't know Jim had recorded one for him. I knew I recorded one for him and I didn't, I didn't Well there were two episodes recorded on the know Jim had recorded one. Yeah, but that it, it, it on and the other Well we definitely, I definitely only recorded one. ready to go home. Where's my duck gone? Where's my duck gone? Right, I'll put this one in the car. What's, Bryony dear, what are you saying? There's my duck, there's my duck. Martin! shoes She's found it. Where's your other one you had two ducks when you, ah, there's one down there look near Hazel's feet. There you are, flower! There you are, Bryony! And I think the other one must be in the car . There's your shoe! I definitely have got a video. Find your shoe. We haven't got another video! Well you said you had and I remember you had. You've probably wiped it off now, by now cos it was ages ago I recorded one and he took it home and if Jim had recorded another episode on it I don't remembering him doing it. Because you took the recording home after Sally was the one, or somebody wanted the other programme I put the tape in and recorded Yeah. thank you and I gave it to Dorothy. Mm. Yeah, but there was another one Well I don't know anything about that! Well that would make three and we've definitely have not recorded three because there were only two episodes to go when you were upset Come on because you were going to miss it. And I That's right! recorded it and I sent it home with you. I didn't know Jim had sent another one, had recorded another one Have you got any others then? The other one wasn't sent home it was kept here. Well don't know where it is cos I didn't, I didn't We watched it on the Friday, didn't you? Or the Thursday. record it. We watched on the Friday, didn't you, or the, the Thursday? Ooh Where's the car box gone? Don't know. Are you gonna take Is your mum waiting to put you in the car, Richard? Come on Can anybody see the car box? If you do find it will you tell me? It was beside me. If you do find it Unless one of them tipped it over. Oh, it's here. If you, Anne! If I find it I'll it but I, I don't know of any other recording. Well it was that one. That's just Richard he likes to ring the door bell. If it was someone else they're hardly likely to ring the door bell with Jim standing beside the front door, are they? Get your shoes on, Martin, please, your mum's waiting to go home. Are they here? That's rubbish. Puzzles forever. Have you got your shoes on, Martin? Right, get your coat it's under Sally's look. Put your coat on, good lad. Oh, the wheels are off the tractor I wonder where it is? And if I can mend it. What's this in me hand? Put that in there. Martin, have you got any books, or s oh he's not here. Walking straight through. Oh, hello. Hi. Ready love? Yeah. Has erm Ta ra Bryony. Ta ra Dorothy. Did Martin have any, Martin! Martin, Martin, Martin, did you have any books or anything Ta ra Sally. Ta ra with you? Okay. Ta ra Stop it!stop it! What's he doing? He keeps undoing the belt! Who's that? Stop it. Richard. Stop it! Look! Don't do that! No. You'll fall out. You'll fall out, Richard. You've got to stay fastened in the car. No, I'm afraid I'm gonna have to smack your fingers if you do that, Richard. I don't really know what else I can do? It's about eight times he's taken himself out. No! It's dangerous! No! Good girl! I got nineteen out of twenty-five You've changed, eh Richard! What was that for? Merit mark for her Science . Science. Oh, very good! Very good! You didn't tell me that! What about the historical visit in Northumberland? Yes, that's to come yet. I, I haven't, I haven't, I haven't got that back yet. Put your belt on Richard. Now! What about your prayer? I haven't got that merit mark yet either. Oh right. Ann, would you be able to have Sally for me on the first of May? It's a Friday. Expect so. Before the, cos it's a Baker day, before Oh. the Yes. Monday May holiday. Yes. I was originally gonna take it off but I've changed my holidays. I'm taking my full three weeks in the summer. So I've changed it. on Easter Monday so I'm sorry I won't be there with your oranges, Dorothy. Oh right. Right, I'm off cos I'm at the careers night, tonight. Well you weren't going to be anyway because you er, oh it's on tonight is it? Yeah. Yeah. Instead of last week. That's right. I know it was cancelled because of the weather. There now! Yeah. Daddy's staying at work half past eight tonight. Are you all calmed down? Bye bye! Bye everyone! Blow me a kiss! Blow a kiss! Blow me a kiss. See you tomorrow! Bye bye! Say see you tomorrow! See you tomorrow! See you tomorrow! Yes, clever girl! Bye! Bye! I must sit down for two minutes, Jim. Alright, sit down for three minutes. I will. I'll sit down for three minutes! I need to sit down for three minutes or, me back'll snap in two. Oh thanks, Hazel. Now where's that consider how expensive those houses are in Rectory Park and Rectory Dean the roads are just shockers. Are they? Mm. Well, are they not private roads? Oh no, I don't know. they're unadopted roads aren't they? I don't I've no idea if they're adopted or not. Oh, where does this go? Oh, I'll put them away later. They go in the cupboard under the stairs. Where does this go? I was a late and I changed to an early and back to a late . Well you wouldn't have been able to go if you'd been erm If I'd been in earlier I might've gone and seen Oh I see. Some of these puzzles, Jim, must've fallen down behind the erm fermenting bin. Mm mm. I just can't get close enough to see. Some of these things as well, they've been pinching back from upstairs, toys they, they've played with when they were smaller and they don't play with them now and I put them upstairs out of the way and they keep going and finding them and bringing them down. That was up, cos they don't seem to play with that much now. So have you got all these things delivered now? How many? Where? Which area? Oh. Where does that shape go? So er yeah the children from school were singing in their Easter bonnets and Easter hats. Oh, was there? At the hospital? school, yes. Oh! Is erm Matthew at Matthew I would imagine so Oh, well he wouldn't must be. I can't remember how old he is. Well the oldest one's Ouch! When I want to sit down and have a cigarette I haven't got any. Are you at a meeting tonight? Yes, at half-past seven Oh,. Do you want me to go up and get you some? Yes please. Oh, there's a piece of I should imagine there's bits of puzzles under the chairs anyway. Sure to be. Oh! at the match last night? I saw, I saw bits and pieces of it. Er I was on duty Do you have any more work to do? Well When, when You could hear such cheer when they, when they got the goal. Oh it was a great goal was that, wasn't it? It was, yeah and erm there was only Jim and I watching, the dog was lying peacefully then he jumped up he started barking he didn't know what was going on. Peter selling er, er a ticket to go, he didn't watch it. Jim says no, Kath's asked him if he would like to go but he wanted to go down to Wembley er get yourself away! If you can, if you can get yourself a ticket. Mm. Er he probably thinks he could get one through but he says no, I've been once. But the second time, they tell me, isn't as good as the first time when you go. She says, well it's your team! Yes! cos it wasn't Sunderland that he went to see when he got the ticket the last time. I can't remember who he said it was but erm I've always fancied going So you get yourself down there, then. Sunderland were there. Oh. I wouldn't have been bothered about any other cos you see it better on the, on the screen. Yes. Yes, you do. But you, you lose out a little bit on the atmosphere. Yes. Unless you can create your own atmosphere. Well, that's it. I mean you should have all your friends and neighbours in and have a party! Well the last the last time when Sunderland got to the Final in seventy-three er there were five of us in the, in my house and I'd made red and white rosettes we had our red and white rosettes and when our, I was sitting watching the match and when they scored the goal my slippers went up in the air. And Jim er Bill grabbed the camera that was on the mantlepiece and he got a shot, not of me, but he got a shot of Pat and her friend and Bryan and er, it was er, er, something I'll never forget. Mm. it really was So erm but I don't know, I, I think if Jim got a ticket, if he got two tickets and he said do you wanna come? I would Mm. go like the shot but I, I certainly wouldn't go without Jim, without somebody else. Mm. But I'll have to get me red and white coat out again Well you wor work on, work on Jim! I mean Pat said he can go so tell him to get two tickets and you'll go with him. red and white scarf got plenty of other reds I don't know if er I could, I could quickly get a Sunderland scarf, believe me, Ann. Mm. There's shop in sells them. Well our Nick used to have er a red, the red and white scarf and hat and everything. He had a tie there's drawers full of stuff upstairs belonging to him I don't know if there's anything in there. Do you remember when we used to I knit him red and white stripe gloves. yes. red with a white tassel on it. Mm. Red and white scarf. Mm. Those were the days! Yeah. Well, you know, apart from anything else they always they were prepared to give me free tickets for the would never do that. Yes, I know I mean Newcastle, we went to Newcastle and they showed us round the ground er when there was no match on and we saw the trophies and the directors' box and various places like that. But they wouldn't let us in, if we wanted to go the match we had to pay. But er, Sunderland gave us free tickets, complimentary tickets not free tickets, complimentary tickets in the seats in the Grandstand! Aha. And er were not cheap seats. No. And then we went round, you know where that they had a training place at Washington? We went round there and showed us all the way round Did they? Yes er yes cos er When they opened the ground at a few years ago Bill was still alive, and er we could go and visit, go into the ground and go and have a look round and it was open to the, the general public. Er, he took me down it was the tunnel where they came out and all round there Well, we, we went in from the when there was a match on. and we went in from the end and er down the pitch and in through the saw the physio room and the, the changing room, baths upstairs saw the trophy. Mm mm. highlight in Hazel's life. And when I, I mean when I, I actu actually felt quite emotional cos I'd not been to Park to see a match for a long time and I mean we're living up here erm, and er, I just felt quite emotional when I got out and saw that lovely pitch it was in perfect Oh, it's immaculate, oh yeah. Oh it was gorgeous! It was in the summer, before the season started. You haven't, you still haven't told me what this is made of? What, oh that's Jim, will you go and g , what time does the off-licence shut? The Victoria Wine. Cos it's where, Later isn't it? Isn't it later? it's where I get my cigarettes from the Victoria Wine shop. this programme on. And there's this to start with. Er, and Mo Mowlam, that's why I watched it cos Mo Mowlam was on but anyway all these nurses getting twenty thousand a year, staff nurses. No, what, he was talking about taxation. That's right. And that er they would be worse off because he said even staff nurses are getting more than twenty thousand pounds a year. Which of course charge nurses aren't getting anywhere near twenty thousand pounds a year and only a few erm nursing officers. Well it's nursing officers, you have to get into that bracket if you get twenty thousand a year. Yes. Paul was er telling all these nursery rhymes, nursery, fairy stories rather There's this, there's, there's, there's Hague this Hague fellow who's a tory Hague is a you know, so I rang up to Anglia television last night in the programme and objected to this, And of course he had the nurses' pay this lie! scale in the other hand while he was ringing them. Where's me purse? make an announcement but no announcement was made. There was no announcement made at the end of the programme so, and they never got back to me, so I rang this morning first thing and last night they didn't ask me my name and address, but this morning they did. They got me name and address and telephone number at work and at home so I told the unions that they had to write in and complain about it too. Mm. There you are. Thanks. and er but what, I mean who was sitting in the audience who is a nurse and er would've known and she would've been trying to get in and say this is not true. But she did ask a question, she was the first question that was asked, the one about erm Yes, but that's all very well but, bout, but er it's too late then, that's what A Angie said, Angie said, you know they, they make this and it's too late you can't undo the, the, it's a lie! That's right! So there's half the country thinking staff nurses are earning well over twenty thousand are owning, earning over twenty thousand. Your Pat said to me on Sunday while I was talking to her, she said, when she was saying oh well she doesn't know whether to vote Tory because They've never been so well off. she's done quite well under them. As Jim said, in six months time if he's redundant she won't be feeling Yes the same. it's true. But she said, I said oh It was the La it was Will Owen and the Labour government that brought I said oh Pat just, just, I said have you spoken to a nurse recently? You know, how demoralised they are and the state of the hospitals and things and she said, oh well, nurses er, they, they've always complained that they're hard up and, And they always have been. and the rest of it. So, talk some sense into her will you? Just point out that they might be redundant and Well, if the Tories win, I mean the privatization will really go to town. I mean even the trusts. The ambulance men in Northumberland because it's a trust and they're paid by the trust That was another thing he said, wasn't it? They, they That they privatized erm ambulance service, they're now the highest paid in the country. Which is and Jim, Jim's got their pay scale and, and Well the trust paying them They're being paid, less! they're being paid less than the N H S Than, than the N H S! ones! I mean just across, if they go down to Durham which is an N H S ambulance service. And that's, you know, anybody listening to that on the television would think, oh yes, that's true! You know it's, it's over there and you er believe everything they've said. once it's stuck in their head then it's like reading things in the newspapers. What, what am I going for? Cigarettes. Er,fort well if you, if you manage to get to Victoria Wines in time er, get me erm,er twenty erm no, get me forty er Emb what do they call them? Elite, please? If you've gotta go to the Co-op, just get me twenty of whatever's there is. Forty Elite? If you get to the Victoria Wine in time. I don't know if he will. I don't know if it shuts at five o'clock or what they do or if evening staff come on? I've never tried to go after five o'clock. Mind you, Ann, I suppose that's why Pat got thinking about a Tory er vote. No, she wasn't thinking, well she wasn't exactly thinking about a Tory vote. She said, well I, I don't know what to do, she said, I haven't read, you know, she hadn't read the election, she hadn't had time to read the election addresses, and she's not really interested in ac actually so she hasn't watched it on the television. And I said, oh Pat, you don't want a Tory government in a again, do you? And she said, well, I I I don't know, she said, you know we've done alright under them. What does she think's happening to education? What does she think's ha happening to the hospitals? I don't think, probably she hasn't really thought it, she's, she's been more concerned with her own self but she's . can't, I don't know. I'll have to have a talk with her. Put your daughter straight! I've, I've I've often thought I would never vote Tory but, I mean, I've been better off in some ways in that I was able to buy my council house. But that, as far as I can make out, is the only thing that I've benefited by, you know, with them being in. Mm mm. erm The unemployed certainly haven't been better off. The, the thing is The young people leaving school haven't been better off. Well it would be erm, the number of people who are being put out of work Yeah. and it's not just every week or every month, it's every day, when you hear of jobs being lost That's right. It's a, it's a And isn't it a hundred, hundred and, hundred and fifty small businesses go bust every year? I mean they keep saying we've given the all, all these opportunities to all these a case in point small businessmen and there's a hundred and fifty. She tried to get, she's tried to get started making, doing her own business, spoke to her the other day and she's, well, Pat spoke to her on Sunday and she got more out of her than I did Mm. but er, she's not getting No. Paul next door left school, you know, he cou all he wanted to be was a mechanic, it's, it's all he's ever been, he's really good. But he's learnt from his father Mm mm. and he couldn't a job and then, I me I mean, he tried for apprenticeships all over the place and other jobs and he just couldn't get one! When his father died, when he was twenty- one, he took over the erm taxi business. Well it was private hire, but most of the work came from Northgate Hospital. Mm mm. You know they, they ran, they took the nurses, because the nurses home was a mile or, was it a mile or a mile and a half or something from the hospital, they had this, they took them in the morning and then they took them at lunchtime and then all the different shifts coming on and off they took them, and they had the schools run as well. And then, of course the er, they started running down Northgate hospital and they closed down the nurses home. So there was half his business worked out, wiped out in one go. And then erm, his schools run was way up into the country, quite a long way and then that was changed. First of all th the erm registration went up, then something else went up and then two of his children from farthest away were moving so he was gonna be paid much less than that. Well the ordinary private hire, there's so many of them, I mean his dad had been doing it for years but there's so many started up. Yes. He couldn't compete! And, and then finally the council said, he actually had an Austin Princess, but you know Paul and his cars that that nineteen, I don't know what it is the car he's got in his garage now, but he buys old cars and completely rebuilds them, it looks like a new car now and he ha he had an Austin Princess which, which actually it was a P reg and er they told him he couldn't run the service unless he bought a much newer car. And he couldn't do it, because, the pair of them, I mean, that was, that business was supporting his mother as well and between them, after they'd paid for the petrol, they were taking in less than a hundred pounds a week and that was for the two of them. Two. So he couldn't keep it going any longer and he had to give it up, so he's on the dole again. It's about oh, it's, it's over a year since he packed in and he's tri applied for hundreds of jobs. He's applied for jobs in Washington and Mm mm. you know it's quite I, mm mm. a long way to travel to I read in er but see you just get nothing. in the paper just last week Nissan had er about had some jobs He wrote to Nissan. going. That was one of the places he and they had, wrote to. they expected, they expected a lot of er applications. They got thirty thousand! Yes. Phew! You know, it was er, it was ridiculous Thirty thousand that there, there, there had to be so many people Mm mm. who needed a job. Yes. Yes. And they expected a lot of but they didn't expect that many. They say unemployment's hitting the south now but I wonder how many jobs they get that thirty thousand apply for? Mm. Sorry state of affairs. Yeah. The teaching, teaching jobs are the same. Hundreds and hundreds applying for teaching jobs. Rubbish. Is that rubbish? What's this? Something from You won't get a copy of the completed er thing, will you? No. Nope! There's bits of paper everywhere you look. Well I think I'd better make a Whose key's this? Got mine here. That's not your key, is it? No, I'm sure it's not mine. Jim's? Jim's is on his car keyring, I'll put it there until I find out. Unless it was a loose one that was lying on here cos Richard was I've got as many keys at home Oh, I've got, and I haven't a clue I oh, I've got, I've keep thinking I, you know, I should throw them out or something. I've got keys to these, there's an old lady opposite, I've got keys for her erm front door and back door. Well I've got She's got a, I think er has she got a no, I don't think she's got a key to my house now, she used to have er in case I lock meself out. And Betty had, but that then we got the new front door so only Betty now has got er, a spare backdoor key which wasn't much good the day I bolted the door into the kitchen! Could only get as far as the kitchen. I've been grateful for Jessie having my key because er I've locked myself out one or two Yes. You know, I get out the door and I think I've left the key in the lock. There's something extremely sticky on this windowsill. Urgh! It's all claggy. I don't know what they've had on there, I'll have to wash it off properly. oh there's my paper . Oh. What happens as far as patients in hospital are concerned Ann when it comes to an election? Well if they've applied in time they can get a p postal vote. Mm. Er or they can ask for someone to take them. Jim's actually running people from Comfort House there. Someone er asked it was someone who was deliving, delivering the erm election the polling cards. He'd been helping his wife to, she must work for the council and he'd been helping her and he said er the matron at Comfort House had asked and he, and he'd noticed Jim's name on when he delivered ours so he knew where they could, he'd take them. The only thing is in a place like that they're more likely to be Tory. However, Jim says he'll take them. Where is Comfort House? It's er, a private nursing home do you know where the library is? Yes. You go past past the library past the ambulance station and round the corner. I haven't been as far down there, I've only been as far as the doctor's surgery, down that road. What opposite, is that opposite the er, opposite Oh, the clinic, yes, yes, yes. the library? No, it's further round than that. Oh. If you go, if you actually Fruit and vegetables back. You got some Do you know whose car was stolen from this road last week? Oh. Cost Kathy down the road was telling me that erm a Yugo car had been stolen from Alexandra Road Last week. I don't know anyone who's got a Yugo car do you? What's I don't know. But apparently it was stolen last week. Aye. like. No. I never tried if I could help Aha. you know just because of this cos the French on the right left of centre you know. Jim can't get ours in it's it's all our garage is full of paper work and things You need a from the front. There's people have got something on them you know for Well he puts a krook-lo gotta krook-lok when he goes steering column you know. Yeah. The steering wheel Aha. now like. Yes. You got your hands full by time you do some shopping with them . yes. Sit still Bryony. Right. Sit still Bry Yes it's lovely. What d'ya want to do? What's the ma She wants to walk. You want what? You're not fastened. Oh sorry. I'm careless aren't I turn round. Pardon? Going to the shop please? No we're going with the child minders tomorrow. Oh we went erm we went the other week I know but you never I was you I I arrived as you had left er so Louise afterwards. aerobics on a Saturday afternoon. Oh yes. Aha. Is that the erm cardio func I don't know. or the er what is it? Is there a lot of high impact in it? No you got No not really it's pretty low impact. Oh Yes. I go to Maxine's erm intermediate class. I wouldn't be able to do the you know the really high very high impact. They Well I mean I do I've been doing aerobics a long time. It's pretty easy for me that Yeah. what she does but We're gonna go And apart from the fact that you're less than half my age . It helps doesn't it? Although the intermediate class most of them seem to be teenagers and twenties. There's a few thirties and there's a couple I think probably in their forties but when it comes to the high impact they don't do it they just step it out you know. Erm push you in the buggy. But the Push. the advance class on a the first one on a Friday morning is nearly all high impact. Is it? There are very few floor exercises. Well I wouldn't be able to do that. But I can keep up with the intermediate class and I said to Maxine, Does this get any harder? And she said, No we do different exercises but there's this amount of high impact. So. Oh what's the mat He's gone forward. He's cutting his top teeth I think. Is he? Yeah. Oh. He had a cold when he cut his bottom two and his top ones are nearly through and he's getting cold. Have a look at have a look at baby Daniel. Crying. Have a look at him. See if he'll have a look at you. There's a little boy. Mm? There. laughing. I think you're tired. Is he a tired boy? Yeah. Poor Daniel. I don't Yes. Poor Daniel. I saw you in the paper with him. Aha. Have you seen Bryony's hair? She's had it cut. Has she? Yeah. Was it right down her back was it? It was. And it was so tangly. And she wouldn't have it brushed and she was shaking her head about when you tried to brush it so. She's lost all her curls from the bottom of it. I don't know if it'll come back. Yes she wanted to ride this morn I'm taking the buggy like this so I can carry the fruit and vegetables back from the market. Oh yeah you Get up. Get up. Oh fancy climbing under a buggy. Get out. on there. Get out. Get out. Yes tell your brother to get o . Oh are you gonna keep him right today James? James was the horror yesterday. I think they all have their moments . No J James with a cheeky grin on his face just kee often when he gets in the mood goes round doing anything he can find that he knows he shouldn't be doing like pulling things out the freezer and then the fridge and and pulling the cooker door down and buggy. What? I can't push the buggy with you riding on the back either. You might trip off and go underneath it. Jump down. Right we'd better go. Say bye bye to Daniel and Alison. Bye Bye. Bye bye Alison. Right see you bye. Hello Tom. How you doing? How we doing? We're progressing very slowly. Are you? As you can see. Aren't we? Are there three like these? Yes they're triplets. But are are they yours? no. No they're not mine . Eh. Do I want two year old triplets at fifty three? Oh they'd be they'd be saying, Boy she's history. Ah Have you never noticed I only have them three days a week? What we got mine You must have seen me often enough without them. Oh aye. What is What is that man? He's called Tom but I don't know. What is your other name? . . Mr . I told them I told that I was going home for good when the sister hurted herself. Between sister he not Aha. and she lives in Ireland you see. Yes. And er and I was telling everyone I said, Oh I'm going to and I was flinging everything over the you know. That I didn't didn't want her out. And er I want to go back now to get the money. Oh yes. To see what to say. So the fellow next door he says Oh don't Are you going to sell er sell your washing machine? Yes I said on the I says. I says a sixty six er hundred six hundred for it. So I says erm, Do you have any washing machines er that you have and all this and I give it all to him. And now I'm starting to look for to get some . Oh. So anyway So you're not going to go back now? No. Where is it you come from in Ireland? Oh. That's right. I remember talking to you and I said I had erm friends from, that's in Tipperary isn't it? Aye. I had friends from Aye. Ooh There were there were there were student nurses with me their their father was a sen senator. Aye. There was about nine children in the family I think. The ones I knew were Bridget Margaret and Mary. Aye. They had brother Aye. and I can't remember the rest. So they're nieces from Yes yes. And they're nieces from they says, Uncle Tom we hear that you're going er er back to Northern Ire or to Ireland. I said, Going to Northern Ireland. Don't you go there they'd kill you. And er Yes. it's a long way off for them to Northern Ireland you see. Lovely place for us coming. Great great er for er football. Mm. I used to read the erm these friend that I was a student nurse with erm used to have their local paper sent over and er I used to read it. Not that I knew anything about the area of course. But it was quite fascinating reading about the Ja Richard jump down. Oh dear. Watch yourself there now. I think they're gonna start fighting any second. Oh. We'd better move. No no. Oh they're rub oh they're rubbing noses. Oh Aye It's not a good idea because Richard's got a streaming cold and James hasn't. Oh get them out of it. Good bye Bye. Oh those are pretty dresses. Right we're nearly to the vegetable stall aren't we? I wonder if this man here's got buttons on today. Let's see. There's Rosie look. Would you like Hello Rosie Oops. You gonna crash into Crashing there. Yes. Busy here today I would think. Getting out like. It's lovely isn't it? Sunshine and has this man got his buttons on today? I can't see. Tucked away somewhere. Well yes. Only for my granddaughters mostly. Now then oh no don't you can't push the buggy into the lady's legs. Don't think she'd be pleased at all. Right now then. I'll just park Bryony here look. Let me park Bryony here. No sit still be Just sit still for now please. Sit still for now please. It's only for a few minutes till I buy these and then you can have a turn at walking. Er can't see a small turnip. There's no cauliflowers any more. Let's go up here and join the queue. Let me get in the queue look or we'll miss our turn. Stand here look in the queue. Have a li have a little talk to Bob look. There's Bob Hold that for me. Are you going to hold his hold is erm straps for Doug. Thank you. There oh I'll have to bring her over a bit. Let's see. Er what do I want. I'll move you a bit nearer Bryony just one sec. Have you got a spare hand on you? Aye. Can you just hang on to those while I I'm push Bryony a bit. I'm going to pu right. I'll push you a bit bit nearer look. Doug's in the queue have you seen him? He's holding James and Richard's reins while I bring you a bit nearer. There you are. It'll be your turn to walk when I've got the fruit and vegetables. Thanks Doug. There I've moved your sister a bit nearer. She was too far away. Yes you will Bryony I can't hold. Give him a gentle stroke. Oh look I'm getting pushed out the queue beca I'm gonna There we are. Mind Bob's tail don't stand on him or he won't be pleased. Give him the bag. Two pounds of carrots and two pounds of onions please. Don't pulled him James just hold his lead gently. Being served thanks. Erm a small turnip please and a small cabbage. Yes please the the smallest you've got. Er Right can I have five . Sorry about That'll do. You being served love? No no. Can I have potatoes please. Don't stand on Bob's tail whatever you do. Er broccoli please. And a turnip yes. What else do I need folks. We've got oranges and we've got apples. What is he doing? Oh he's making a noise. Celery please. What what did you tell him to do? What'd you tell him Erm three pou Be quiet. Three pounds of bananas please. Wondered what I was standing on there it's a bit of squashed carrot. Three pounds of bananas. Pound of mushrooms please. And ten pounds of potatoes and that's it thank you. Stand still you two. Yes I'm going to get you out Bryony in a. You're going to it's your turn to walk in a minute. We'll push Bryony. Thank you. Right let's go let's go to the end look. The man's going to give us them at the end of the stall so that. Yes I'm going to get you out. Let me let's bring the buggy back look. I'm putting them in the back of the buggy. Yeah. Right can you just drop them in there please. Thanks very much. You gotta walk have you? Well Jim's at work all day so I won't. He can't come and pick them up from here on anything. Thank you. Now who's who's James you ride a little bit now and then Richard will. So I'll get Bryony out look. Let's get Bryony. Don't squa Will you stop whining petal. coming. Is it Richard coming? No I think James is going to have a ride now are you James? And Bry I'm not. Who is it you Richard? Are you goi is it No. Well one of you must and then you can get out and walk again. You have to take turns. Bryony's ridden all the way here look. Just a minute. James will you stand very still be I can't get out. Stand very still. I can't get out. Oh wait a minute it. What did I say? I sa I said stand very still please beside me while I loosen Bryony. Very very still. Help me help me. Yes I'm getting you out treasure. This this er thing's got stuck on the rails. he's got Yes but one of them's going to get in. Who's going to get in first and who's going to get in later? I don't want to get in later. You you both have to have a little ride each back to my house because I can't I don't think Not go back to my house. Oh that's it. I'm not going back. James you're going away again come back please. my reins. Well you have to hang on to the buggy then. Look I've been holding Richard. Let's see if I can manage all three of you walking. Get on and hold the buggy then. You have to hold the buggy or you have to. No if you hold it there you can reach better. You're a bit small to hang on to the handle. You you've got a filthy nose. Let's have a look. No you're going to tip it if you do that. Don't tip it please. No. Yes you're tipping it because you're trying You're naughty boy. Listen you're tipping it. You can't swing on the handle Richard. Bryony if you're going to walk you need hold on to there because when you hang on to the handle it's too high and you tip it over. Richard get off the back of it or I'll put in the buggy. If you want to walk Bryony you must hold there please. You hold on to there. Go on good girl. Well I can't push it because there's nowhere to put my I don't want to go Listen to me there's no I don't want to go in. Well I'll have to hold your reins then. Don't want to go in. You can't hold there because I need to be in the middle of it to push it. Where am I supposed to go? You can James your straps are stuck round her arm. You Right well I'm going home without you then because I can't put I can't there's no way I can push this buggy with you walking on my toes Bryony. So you need to walk there. So that I've got room to walk. You hold on there. You get round the corner please. You hold on to that handle. Look look James is hol Richard's holding that handle James is holding that handle you hold there. Well you'll have to ride again then. Wait a minute the brake's on. Because I can't if you're holding that handle there there's nowhere for me to walk. I'll just be treading on your toes all the time. You heels I mean. You've got your hands full there. If they would just cooperate a bit. Oh they won't they're too little I think. Yes. Too little to understand. Never mind we're in a straight line now so. They don't go round corner either do they? They don't no. No there's things to be said Very limited. Yes. Now listen I want to see I want to s Have you got buttons today? Oh right thank you. He that man hasn't g Hello. That man hasn't got buttons today. So we need to see if there's another button stall. There's one more lady but where does she go? I think she I think she might be at the far side. Just a minute. There's another one. Have to have another one. Have another one. another one Just a minute. another one. That's a nice jog suit but it's oh it's the same as one I've got. Oh no it's not it's better it's a zip down the front. Let's see. Right. Now that's that's good Bryony I can push it while you're walking there. Very good. Is the lady with buttons round this. Oh dear you see what I mean I'm walking on your heels. Now then. Can anyone see the lady with buttons? I can't. I can't either. I can't. I can't either. Oh. Let's see. Let's see if this man's got some What? Pandas. Oh pandas on the cans yes. Ca we need to reverse a bit. Let's go back across here look. I'm going to get some bread buns. Right I need to get my purse look. Here we are. Bryony come and stand over here or hang on to the buggy whichever you want to do. Right stand here. Those a cans of erm it's fizzy. No don't touch them because if if you drop they'll fizz up and bust. Panda panda. Yes they're pandas on the drinks. I said don't Finger buns or bread buns sixty pence a dozen don't touch. Oh you can freeze anything love. Can you? Erm Iced finger buns bread buns you've Scottish. Can I have three steak pies please. Three steaks love. Oh no problem love. Just take Wait a minute I'll get you some. They were still red hot this morning when we got on the market these were. I hope you've got some change cos I haven't. I'm all right with pound . There you go love. Sorry. Yes sorry. Oh. Look can you move over here look cos it's nearly our turn. Nearly look. Isn't it? Don't touch the buns. You have no browned ones. No. Erm right I'll have a packet of er round ones please. Packet of bread buns love. Yes. What are these? Five packets for a pound love. I'll have er two orange two lemon er what else and a packet of shortcake please. That's sixty love. Erm is that all I want? Er yes that's it thank you. One sixty love. Keep still till I get my money out pet. Have you always had that notice up there? Yes darling. I've never noticed it before that you came from . Oh aye every every week. We used to live at Washington. Oh aye Washington. That's where my husband comes from. Yes. monument. Aye. That's nice that's just like a lemon here that one. One sorry what did you say one six one sixty. There you are thank you very much. There now let's put this in the bag. Thanks. Thanks love. Don't swing on the stall Richard. Sixty pence a dozen girls your finger buns or bread buns now. Let me put Everything you see on the stall let me put this in the front of the buggy look. And don't squash them. bread buns. Those are biscuits. Finger buns or bread buns at sixty pence a dozen. Er I will hold Right Bryony shall we get in the same No. Will you put the biscuits back please Richard you don't want biscuits now you've had a biscuit this morning with your milk. That's all for to all for this morning. Bryony come back where you were clever girl. What a clever girl. Come back where you were . sixty pence a dozen your finger buns or bread buns now. Your pies are three for a pound your pasties are four for a pound. Come back where you were or you'll have to get in. Come on you help me push like you were before look. Can you? That's the way good girl. Richard don't swing on the buggy pet. I think that lady with the button. Oh wait a minute. No that's not her. That's not her. Can you stop while I just glance at this. Richard. You are you tired? Do you want to ride? I do not want to ride. You don't? I don't want Don't swing on the buggy you're gonna have it tipped completely over. Look how many times have I told you to stop swinging on the handle you're tipping it over. We'll end up with all the fruit and vegetables and and the bread buns and the biscuits all over the floor. They would get filthy. Do you hear the music. Shall we have a waltz? Yes. I'm yes. We will make love. See these. I don't want to see these. I don't want to see these. But I I need to you see I need some buttons for Beverley and Melanie's cardigans. You're not to touch them. Those aren't cream they're yellow aren't they. Listen. I'm been blue sorry . Are those clear or blue? Where's the lady? They are clear. Where's the lady gone off this stall? They're clear. Clear. No they're they're blue. Are they clear? Take me back in your arms Are they clear? Oh they're yellow. Are they clear? No tho those are not clear. Those are clear. I think I'll have to get this kind. But the lady's vanished off the stall so I can't buy them. Lonely have you ever been blue. What treasure? I think these are too small. Let me see that one. That's that's yellow lemon. Some of them are so faded on the top that when you they're not they're not the colour you think they are. Oh that's the size I want. Now let's put them all back and see if we can see the lady. No just leave all of those look. Oh here she is. Put them back please. Hurry up cos it's near our turn to be serv where's my purse. Let's get my purse. Put them back please Bryony. Yes darling. Fourteen please. Fourteen my love right oh. Oh no you're not to take the top off. Don't take the top off put them back now look. There you are now my darling. Thanks. Oh I've used all my change I'll have to give you five pounds. There she is. Skived off you see you know what I mean. Took all my bloody change out me till. The lady's just had fourteen of these. Thirty pence please. I'm very pleased about that. Are you? Yeah. No. You're gonna lose half. Richard. Hang on a minute. Yes. Wait a minute you're you're losing some of your buttons over here look. Come back. No. Let's put them all back. Put them back. Clever boys. Thank you. You'll have have you. It does get rather warm on occasions. That one yeah that one goes in the pink in the pink. Is that in Yeah it's all right. Right let's let's all get lined get lined up again ready to move. All lined up again. It's a good way trying to teach them colours isn't it? Actually they they were quick at learning colours. There now. Especially Bryony she learnt the colours very very quickly. There now. Even things like silver and grey and brown. Oh. Not just the primary colours. Into formation. Right Bryony in the middle. That's it. Richard Right that's it away away there. Wagons roll. Thank you bye. Let me see what these eggs are like round this corner. Where is he? Oh it's it's sorry it's round the next corner. Those are garden garden gnomes. Cats. Cats? Gnomes er frogs look over there there are frogs. Can you see oh and snails and little houses. Hedgehogs there's a tortoise. There's a little fawn look a baby deer. Oh look at the seal and the birds. The birds. I can't see them. I don't like the gnomes but the animals are very good. James you've you've gone on the wrong side. Bryony in the middle. We're going round the corner to the egg man. And round this corner. Look at the tiger ski tiger skin seat covers. Can you see there look? Like tiger ski hello. Oh the ducks yes ducks that's right the ducks had better watch out or they're gonna get run over. They're on the road. Yes the ducks are on the road. What love? No we need to get I think I'll just get half a dozen. What have I done with my purse now is it there it is. Right let's Oh do you see there's the road sweeper. Right let's get over here a little bit. Yes it was a road sweeper. It's came in handy for the shopping that now anyway hasn't? It's getting them to push it and keep in keep in line. One in the middle and one at each side. But yes I can get the shopping in. It's no good shopping in shops with it though cos we can't get round the aisles with them like this. Bryony. Come over here just in case the road sweeper's coming up here. There you go sir that's two ninety eight there please altogether there now. Got it a tiny bit cheaper for you there sir. Two pound two change thanks very much cheers now. Six size three please. I'd better not take any more at once in case they fall off . Forty two there thanks. You haven't got the two have you? Just a sec. Yes I have. Thanks. Thank you. There we are let's put see if we can find a space to put these. Eggs. Got eggs. Yes I've I've bought eggs yes. Let's see if they're go in this I wonder if I can balance them on top of the on top of the potatoes. Now we need to turn the buggy round. We're going back to my house now. We're going back to my house because we're going We no we're not going to soft play today. We're going to soft play tomorrow. Look let's move because the man can't get out for us. Tomorrow we're going to soft play not today. Round we go. We're going on Tuesday. No we're going no not Tuesday we're going on Thursday this week. Right you get back in the middle please Bryony. Good girl. And off we go again. Off we go off Here we go here we go . Yes. Oh you've bumped your head on the handle. It's stopped now it's gone away. Road sweeper. I see a road sweeper. Up we go. I see a road sweeper. Yes we saw a road sweeper. Green ducks. The green ducks are drakes the ones with green heads. Right let's get back to my house or there won't be time to make this case before dinner time. Look at that duck over there. That must be one of the ducks that's that's half white and half domestic duck and half mallard. Is that is that the swan up there look or is it the white I can't it's too far away to see. swan. It isn't a swan I thought it was but I I don't, hello, I don't think it is. You don't want to go back to your house. Do you want to go back to my house. I'm not going back to your house. You're not going back to my house. Where are we going then? We going back to your house. We are. You're going to help me make to make a birthday cake for Jim remember. You don't want to help. Does anybody want to help? I thought you would like to do that you like cooking. Come off the mud please Bryony it's all clarty. What are we doing? I'll tell you what we're going to do I want to walk I want to walk No Bryony come back please because if you walk by yourself they'll want to as well. You've got your hands full. Yeah. I want to walk by myself. I want to walk by myself. I'm gonna walk by myself. I'm gonna walk by myself. No you're not going to walk by yourself. I want to walk Bryony. Can I walk by myself? No darling we're near the river. No way can you walk by yourself. What? Shall I walk by myself. I can't let you walk by yourselves near the river. What if you ran away? It's no good saying you don't because you do. Hello. Look you see what I mean. Bryony. Come on get hold of the buggy. You hold the middle of the buggy like that. Richard come back where you were at this side. Well get in the buggy then Bryony. Either hold on to there or get in it. Well if you're gonna. Put you in the front seat hold on Bryony wants to get back in the buggy. Let's put her let's put her in the front seat. Well well Bryony says she wants to go in the buggy. that want to. Let's see. Richard oh my goodness. You would want to stop and change over when we're right beside the river wouldn't you? When it's hard to hang on to all your reins. Right you jump in. Jump in. You'll have to have it up a little bit or the same thing'll happen at Yes. Right let's go again. One at each side boys please. Bryony if you get your foot underneath it like you did before when you kicked the footrest down and then your foot went underneath the buggy and you screamed didn't you? You can't swing on the buggy handle it makes it too heavy and it makes it tip up. James hold your side please. There. The moorhen one moorhen Bryony. Wait a minute cos Bryony wants to see moorhens. Let's see if we can look. Where. Let me see if I can get Bryony to see where this moorhen is. Can you see that tree branch, move along a little bit Richard. That's right it's in the bott the trees hanging the branch is hanging right down to the river and the moorhen's standing on it. That's right. But I can't see any more moorhens and there's usually a few more round if there's one. But I can't see them. Right then let's get in a line again. In a line again. Yes we're going yes you can see it as well. Is it over there? Yes it is it's over there that's right. There we are. I can see the birds. You want to see the birds. Well in that case no there Richard Richard means the birds in the park in the aviary. We we can't go and see. Listen. Yes that's what kind's that one Bryony? Bryony says she can see one in the sky. What is it can you remember? That's right it's a seagull. There's another seagull. That's a black-headed gull that one. I want to see the one in the park. Yes it's a white one with a black head. I want to see the one in the park. You want to see the birds in the park. The trouble is I want to see the one in the park . Yes but but I can't push this buggy up that very very very steep hill to get down the other side to the birds. Isn't it beautiful. I am. I am. They want to go up to the aviary but I I can't get I can't get this buggy up there up that hill. I should think not either. Listen we'll come Another day. Yes cos we we can walk easily Yes. We can easily lovely weather up here. Oh I hope so. Better than last Wednesday. Oh yes. You wouldn't think it was the same month would you? Yes that's the weir. I want to see the one in the park. You want to see what? But I've just explained about five times. To go to the one in the park we'd have to go up that hill and there's no way I can push this buggy with Bryony in the front and all these fruit and vegetables I couldn't get up and the hang on to you two with your reins I couldn't get up that steep hill. So the best thing to do the best thing to do listen. No Bryony I'm telling you you listen I'm telling you. The best thing to do would be to come tomorrow and we'll walk there without the buggy. We can easily walk there and we can come in the front we can come in the front gates of the park and we don't have to go up great big steep hills do we? Just a minute Your mummy's got full hands. I'm not mummy. Oh you're not mummy are you not? I'm their friend. Oh their friend. Well you've got full hands. No I look after them three days a week. Oh youngsters to look after bank. Mhm. And by gum she's got her hands full there you know. And the young one was listening when she come to us. She said, By gum that woman's got full hands. Oh she's got out look. Come back a bit. Oh look we're gonna have to press the button Oh dear We're gonna have to press the button again look. Ee press the button again. I'll put this here look. Let's get the buggy up to the go on then somebody. That's the way. Oh Jesus Chri ! Jean! What? Here's your breakfast, come on! Come on get up! It's after nine, it must be about twenty past to half nine here's your breakfast cu Christ get out the way, get out! Bloody dog! Jean! I got you cornflakes toast I didn't do an egg you've had enough was round there left another tape tape recorder. What She'll be round on f excuse me! She'll be round on Friday afternoon or Saturday some time I said we'd be here from four o'clock on Friday so I'll take it down to John's today then it's away to work I've got the rubbish in the bins right? Raymond took money out of your money, got cigarettes and a paper and the house is tidy so I'll get the twenty past ten bus later. Have you no matches? She was saying that the shop she was in was selling the turkeys that we got, for three ninety nine I think it was a supermarket or somewhere was selling them Three ninety nine? No three fifty. Aha. Patch! Stop that! Fucking lighter! Have you got a light Jean? You should of bought pe oh there's some petrol under the sink I put paint thin thinners in this you know, stripper? What for? I thought it would of blown or lit. And this fucking Patch, get into the house! Get in! And stay there! Sit! There was a fella shot dead last night in sp er Don . Do you remember the bar we went into that night with Sally and Perry? Remember the Saturday night over in east east Belfast? Yes. Erm and er and that Audrey or Aubrey and and nobody knew well he ran that bar. He was the manager of that bar. They U D A according to the T V. What ? Well they're keeping an open mind about it yeah but skin you I suppose he his,I have all . Jean I'd fucking do it to you! No but I know, why? Raymond I mean won't speak to you if you You've been in bed for eight o'clock last night it's now nine what's that, thirteen odd hours? Ask me the time I was up at? You could lie in actually. No no , no no no no no, ask me what time I was up at? What time were you up at? Half five this morning letting the dogs out in the back so I said to hell with it, I'm not going to bed again! You won't lie in when you can't Well I slept all night Jean. You know what I had this morning for my breakfast? Ha! One, two one, two, three, four four seven oat cakes! You know the triangle shaped ones ever whatever? Seven of those. You So I ate a whole packet all of them! Ha! Ha ha ha! Look at them cornflakes. then Jean, you'll need proper su so you'll need sunglasses. Window open? No. Does the li does the light not hurt your eye ! Do you want the fan on? England, Scotland and Wales and er showers here. Lovely weather Lovely weather for ducks! What was wrong with erm the cassette thing? Ah, they thought it was the cleaning head. What? Apparently they thought it was the cleaning heads by the, the heads of it, I don't know, I know nothing about it. Well according to counter, that's still going. gonna get a couple of he ah ah tapes that we had ruined of our own I said no. So she took the first lot back you know, the two boxes Aha. and gave us a another two boxes. Ha! What'd she take the tapes back for? No she bought a second lo a second twenty lot of twenty and I give her the first lot back probably. I know but she was nothing to with the tapes it was No well she just, just to say they're not starting to count again. Oh. So I've now got from Monday, twenty. And each lasts approximately forty five minutes. So if I take one down today no I'd need a couple wouldn't I? Mhm. Well I'm taking four anyway to see what happens and the booklet. God bless. Well what booklet? You have to put a book in first, that I was first to speak this morning, you were second and then it'll be either Kelly Ann or Stephen next. Ooh yes. But I don't put yo I don't put every time they speak, put your names in once on each page is enough. Oh I see. So if I start another tape I think I've to put their names in first right. Cos the listener will be able to tell who is speaking. Oh. Raymond said he was sick this morning. Was he? Mhm I said oh he was sick last night and sick this morning. Some sort of What ? well he said it was like green bile! Wasn't that a cle a they were pouring in th in the on the bucket? Aha. Oh that'll be, well have the both of them then except my underwear and socks What do you want done, before I go out? Nothing. Well I've gotta get shaved and ba you know those dark blue trousers? Mhm. to leave them in the cleaners? We'll see. Get them out for Easter I mean white lines up the seams Pass the please? Where's the bi Oh Eh. Enjoy that breakfast. I did, it was lovely thank you. Do you eat all the toast? You mean all the toast? There was never any! Sorry, what am I eat all the toast! I think I'll put on a jumper today, or a pullover it'll be cold coming out of John's tonight. You'll have to do your own boots What boots? You remember the snow boots we had. Not at all. You know when you put those boots on and the string rather because they they are what they they look like with the they're called boots. .Ha! Wha what date is today? Twelfth. right. What are you gonna ? Rita returns home in Coronation Street er Is that all it says? The Golden Girls on for half an hour. Is that all it says, Rita returns home? Yes. Er all else on! Oh This is your Life you like that. Oh . I missed the last Friday night. There you are there's an article on Easter eggs right Cadbury's Buttons the verdict of that is very, a good design, reasonably good value cost per hundred grams is eighty seven point five P. Cadbury's Roses verdict neat box but too much packaging and they cost a hundred and one P for a hundred grams. Cadbury's Creme Eggs over large box too much packaging hundred grams, they cost a hundred and nine. Rowntree's Rolo verdict clever use of packaging good value cost per hundred grams eighty eighty P. Rowntree's Smarties verdict small box and packaging kept to a minimum, good value eighty three pence per hundred grams! And Quality Street Egg verdict, the box makes the eggs appear much larger than it actually is cost, a hundred gram, ninety nine . So the cheapest is Buttons The Rowntree's, no Christ, you're not listening! Rowntree's Smarties is eighty three Cadbury's button is eighty seven point five and then Rowntree's Rolo is eighty eight the dearest is a hundred and nine P for the Cadbury's Creme Eggs. Oh I see. And it cost two pound thirty five for a hundred and thirty six gram egg and two forty gram Creme Eggs. No , couple of draws . People prefer a couple of big bars o True. Cadbury's Cadbury's Milk Tray. Well that Galaxy is lovely and creamy. The what? Galaxy. Cos you're paying actually for the boxes, it says. Her Best place for him Jean! No place for a dull ! What would you like for your tea? It's not a matter what I would like Jean, it's what the hell is in! I would like a soda baking soda! Mm? It doesn't matter. teacher admitted fifty three victims . Admitted to what? Hurting fifty three victims! He's a mild mannered grandfather who accused of murdering thirty five children and eighteen young woman across the country over twelve years. Oh The youngest was a boy of eigh eight the of twenty two . Must of been . Christ, an innocent man earlier on was forced to co confess was, was e was executed for some of the killings that he did! Another committed suicide while waiting trial. My God! The victims, many of them homeless, were blinded and torn apart in a frenzy of violence. He enticed them with a promise of dinner and a chance to watch his video. How awful! As soon as they saw a lonely person, they had to drag him off to the woods Jesus Christ! Here's the son of Kirk Douglas has been jailed for five days after kicking a policeman! They say he's a pig's ear queer! He's not! Film stars get away with everything! Well he didn't, he's in he's inside for five well days anyway. Five days You know your woman that started all the controversy about the eggs? Edwina Currie. Yes. She was offered a job in the government and she turned it down! Oh It says because her boss would of been Kenneth Clarke is it? And er apparent eh Kenneth Clarke, apparently they don't get on. I've promised Shirley Yeah. Your man at what? That's another man. Who was? Thomas . Oh the big fella from Saudi Air? Mm. And what about him? And he says hello Jean,all about you and he says, is this for you love, and I says yes and I said Well you should of told him you were fucking burning the place! Why? I said about to see him and I says no, he says I should of kept the houses and just done the lot. Good grief, how could you! Well we're living like fucking ants two up and two down, outside bogs! Jesus Christ! It's alright for some ah! No wonder you're trying to Ah but he means put a bath in a bathroom in, the way you know they did up the Donegal Road. What and you've no back yard! No space for hanging clothes, no space for walking! I certainly I ha He says your when a ambulance comes for people who are sick they have the and there'll be somebody who maybe really seriously ill by the time tha that they ask where to get to such and such a place by the time they're there sometimes the people dead! ever should be er measured by the street map of the city of Belfast for all the cost it's not such a big place anyway. Excuse me! I'd of get lost in Sandy Road Mm. now. I did. Well like Christie's Manor had to show me out of it her and her her daughter! There you are. Cos she said to me she said Christ thirty years in Sandy Road you get lost in it! It Andrew was talking about Da and Dotty . and he said Councillor Albert . aha and he says I've been to the nice wee man he says he remembers ah going round all the houses looking for somebody to do in Apple Street and he went and told what's his name? Dotty did? Aha he went told, what do you call him? The, the first house in Street, beside the shop? what Diddy's friends? No that's Boyle Street What Street? Scumbergh Street Oh yes, directly beside the old house? No aside the wee shop at the corner of Street. Oh yes, Hannah. Hannah Oh yeah. and she says no, go down and get Edith and er Edy ? Aha and he done caretaker for years Mhm. for her. Sunday School and I remember coming in here. I says cos I said that fellow I says my husband's mother for years I says, in fact and old photographs in the house we have of and his wife and a whole crowd . have you? And I says to I says erm It was hell fire and those preachers none of your high church there! Paisley and Ian Paisley . Well that was after Albert giving out Yes. load of shit ! Aye cos I remember and the big . He was a little rogue! Who? Albert . God forgive you ! He was , he stole the fucking ey ornaments out of instruments out of the Salvation Army saw them in his house one day, up in the loft and there was enough musical instruments to start up twenty bands! Accordions, trumpets a bugles, everything! Well everybody His daughter was a nice she was a nice she was home a couple of times, I met her. Very pleasant, awfully polite, but very pleasant She used some of those jars ah? She used, used jump it we could put them on her cupboards, you know, make her something a bit bigger, they're gonna get that off there. And sh what's in those coloured bags there? John's stuff . That well that's the third for him . Does he? Aye. I says, and I says Buck. Was she out today then? She was out yesterday about oh sorry, he's querying the arrears, he said he wasn't there for what, two months? Aha. Which he wasn't,and true, he was living with me. She wants to know where she's living I said, oh I know where she's living she's in she's now got a property down in I says and I, I be honest er ooh she said to me, yeah sorry oh who are you? Are you his father? I says no I'm his brother-in-law but I know all his details and I said, he wasn't here! And no matter how little re rebate he gets it'll be a help to him, why should he pay for something he didn't get? Alright? Then I said, have you got him a house yet? And she says it's strange, but there's no movement in the Conway Estate there's usually a good turnover of people who're moving in and out. Wait a minute it's no good there is no movement. There usually is a, a, a, vacant houses but at the minute it's at a standstill. Right so that means if there's nobody moving out, John can't move in? He neither filling another form, I says well I'll fill it in tonight for him he'll sign it and if I post it tonight you'll probably get it tomorrow. I won't be in the office she says until er May the fifth and nobody else will deal with it so there you are. This is what, April the what, the fifteenth, the sixteenth? What is it? About three weeks. Yeah, well there you are. Yesterday was the fourteenth, it is the fifteenth. What? What did he put down? He didn't, he didn't fill it in. Ah he says, what about talking money? But he doesn't want to talk money he's hoping to get that bitch to come back and live with him and she doesn't like us! Well you can't blame her. Jean, we don't even have see them you know what I mean? He doesn't have to pass our door to get the bus stop, he doesn't have to pass our door to get to the schools or the children. He doesn't have to pass this way to go to the shops. It's It will be handy for me though. I can't see her coming back really I mean she might come back for Well Christ well what did you get yesterday you found her clothes, her trousers and her knickers! She must have been staying there at the weekend! She might stay for a a weekend or something, but I mean erm Aye get her end away he's, he's no scruples! Here, put these clothes away. He hasn't Did you phone Kate? No, I haven't. No, well phone her see how she is. Now if she says why we were not here or say say she tells you she called on Saturday and we were out just say to her Raymond was drinking stout! Fuck her I was drinking stout on Saturday night and normally don't do it because we've simply no money!on the vodka and say it wasn't even enough to buy a carry out but don't say it unless she says she was here! Oh can't see her coming for Saturday night. No. She was here on Friday night. She mentioned the silver teapot to John. I said to him we made her a cup of coffee out of a teapot that was bought and she says she was talking about it. I didn't want John thinking that I said he would get her one. No, There's toilet rolls in there . In that top one? Aha. Can you not put them in the bottom of the cupboard and get rid of that bag? Jean, that's what drawers are for!everything, look at that dir lo look at that now! I can take some down and put them in the cupboard. Are you sure Jean there's not a box of soap in there? Aha. There is. What? No it's not the soap in that box is lying down in the coal hole. What? The soap out of the box is lying in the coal hole, the empty box is in the bin. Okay. Hey listen you see these er the stuff you have in that cupboard there, the hot press. Aha. Now, you'll have to go through it right? There's no use in keeping things that you're not gonna use okay? Now you, if you get rid of a lot of, of a lot of the rubbish right? Do you realize how quickly your clothes would dry in there in the hot press? All of them. No serious, in summer, it's alright now good wind blow you can get the clothes dried in a reasonable time but in the winter you can't I know. right? They would even dry quicker than if you put them over the clothes horse cos that's what those slats are for. There's no use keeping things you don't need Jean, and you don't know anybody that needs them! John never mind him! If he gets a house he'll need curtains, putting his curtains up. Ha for God's sake Jean if she's gonna move back with him she'll not want your stuff! That's why she won't move back in with him, cos she says there's too much stuff there reminds him reminds her of her his ma or your ma. I think she was glad to take it all mine. at the time Jean. I don't want to ge to get involved, but you just can't help and I don't want any of this shit out! Now watch this And from what I've heard about her she's always her mouth now! There oh Christ! Remember me at the weekend to look I think it's only fuse right? Now if it's only a fuse like mine I'll get him one and we'll be able to get the computer back down cos er the like right? Now these Easter eggs, I hope nobody's touching them! This table here what're you gonna do with it? I was thinking of putting it in there on Saturday, Right then we'll have to move that bed a bit. Oh yeah. You'll have to get those books out the corner, you get up get up get washed and get dressed and we'll do it now please? Come on! Do you feel any better this morning? You were like something hanging over the edge of a nest last night! You didn't know whether you were coming or going! Alright. Well, you get those boys to help you today. They're I'm fri I, I don't care Jean, no argument! If I'm not here you're in charge and that's it! You're asking them to Right now what do I do? This way now I lift this side, that'll be it, can you lift that? Don't strain yourself when I lift, you lift Jean, put your hand under there! There right, now is that better? No sweet wrappings. That's a good idea. them on there. though is it? Would you not be better throwing some of , you've read them? You put the alarm clock onto the bed alright now let me see will it go in? Ah, I dare say there in that corner like that by the side of the now where are we putting these egg boxes away ? Can you make a space over there? I don't want Is that the bigger box? Have you decided yet, who's getting what?get going, where are all these going then? Over there. Oh. for Jean next Yeah. Mother's Day you're, we're all still here I said wear this and I'm sorry but Well I shan't bother with for them! I know, I know that love. I can hardly say ! You know that I would do it properly for if I had to. Yes. Now don't go making this into your Jean okay? Yeah. You don't need that! and you don't need that rather here I think these are all Melissa's books. Oh no they're not. I think it I think they're thickies and they'll wanna read something else! Have you had been in to see have you been in to see Mrs ? I stopped Which ? Er do you know Denise and Dave? Aye. Well some relation of hers was knocked down over there. Over there a across the street here? No, round the corner. Right. And he was talking to Thomas Thomas who? Thomas Oh yes. Why did he knock them down? No. What Just to tell you about Ben and he's happily church . Oh yes, that's right oh still religious is he? Aye And a how's the chest, serious? Paul who? Paul Oh next door. called her name and Well as long as she's okay. She's on a wee bend, and she down the alley there Mm. laid out on the road! God help her! Oh the usual bicycle. He's not ours And I'm . Oh I took our books down to the library today and there's two in three of got don't let them use my razor Jean! They were shearing sheep with it! There's another five million things for the Jean! Do you remember that black stone ring? Aha. That Johnny had is it still here? No I think it's time Jean oh no that's mine don't let anybody touch that! If it's yours then What's that there, that's a good'un it's not as not as heavy as I, feel the weight of that you feel that. Oh yeah. Feel the weight go on. Now we've got a buyer for that one at home well two for pound help to buy you a bed. Kelly Ann the other day wanted to know where my where was the ring you got married in Raymond? No ! Yeah she said Aunt Jean tried to get me to work, but no! And why not? There's an Irish pound coin you'd get about ninety odd ninety odd P for that. Right now that's slightly better. Another thing Jean you can get the boys today is to clear their drawers out if there's that they don't would you bring the plate down if there's clothes Are you going to ? If there's clothes that what am I gonna , if there's clothes they don't want Jean into the bin! There's no use giving them away cos they're rags! When does Soggy go away again? A fortnight? Jean? If I hear any more talk about Soggy, what would you been doing if you were ? And how do you clean these boots properly? I don't know. I don't know if he's gonna start it again, but I stopped him bloody ! This is what I was thinking of throwing out Jean. What? Do you know those articles John got you? The wee plates? Why? Well we never use them and I've another reason for wanting rid of them. Ah ah ah! Hiya Kylie, Hiya Paul! hello. Nice innit? Beautiful! Beautiful! Aha? and they never even You run eight miles? Aha. Jesus Christ! Where's my ? You sick in the head or something? No I just Where do you run? Whe o path turn er What do you want? Do you hear a Jean. music? Don't hear music. up all the way along and er you come out along the road all the way up past Aye. is it Thomas? Thomas Thomas . Park down there go round to up back around the Road That's heavy! come down. Jesus! Where's your puppy? It's in the house sleeping. Locked you out again? Got too pissed or something! Yeah, better you than me! Ah it's sweet enough, I saw you coming in with a black one. Aye. Raymond was here and I was going out with her Aha. and the big dog hates her going out and I have to be on my own. Right. Brought her her in and you know wee Gavin? Yes. got us wading through Aha. the fight happened he got out Aha. and he was fucking jumping about the I only got to hear him start talking to your Raymond Aye. and he was going nuts! He was going nuts! And did you take him in? No I ended up putting them in the box Joan had him out yesterday. Dad! Yeah. It's her I want to get ready for Saturday, for this championship show. Oh aye. Has he not been to,a lot of Aha. Daddy! What a way of starting! He she should do well. I hope she does love. But she's in she's in for the championship, and then there's a president's club Aha. can have a good win in er ninety one so Yes. in our breed shows Yeah. and she got best puppies that's her reward. Lovely. So we'll put her in for it I mean with her form break it down, I hope they ask her to you know? Aha. The other was sitting on our wall. Hello lovely! On your way t on your way to Disneyland? Right Paul. Ta. Oh wrong book! Nearly the end. Well there's one tape completed Jean oh it's only the side of one. Right. We this the first side of the Right. first tape. Well paint thinners or white spirits doesn't light as well as petrol in these lighters ! What? I saw one on top of the bed I don't know where I put the other one It's down here Jean. God! Have you tried under the bed Jean? What? But Is it under the bed? No it's not. Well have you looked? Where did you get that one? Beside the bed. Well I put one on top of the bed! But I don't know what I did with it. Jean. What? I was talking about Paul there. Why? He says last night and never took or anything. Well that's what I thought, but anyway! They're putting shorts on him! There's your slipper there for fu You finished in the bathroom? I need a dump. Well won't no more, so no problem. Ha! That's one thing running at your own speed! Ah Jean! I was reading in a book the other day that if you get a bicarbonate of sodas, that's baking soda. Thanks. And it takes the stains out of no, can it not get paint stains? Right, where's this morning's paper and I go to the bogs? I shouldn't be here I should be away on the bus. Oh God! Oh! then? Ah no Heather I'll throw them down there you'll have to get lighted the fire try and some right . Twenty Barclay please, and a box of Swan? Swan. Three six. How much is that? How much? Three six. Is there any more in there oh no that's right there. Packet of those Duracell exactly! One or two? One. They all come ready packed believe it or not! Oh no, no that's more than reasonable good day, thank you! Cuts where? There. In your gums? No just on my lips. Oh ca that's only where they had to be you put the wee rubber mouthpiece in you see to keep your mouth open so that's easy to open your mouth, sometimes people clamp their mouths closed and then they can't get their teeth out. Right have you got your tickets? Er Lift that book. Right you gonna carry that for me? Yeah. You don't mind? No. Now, are your tickets down in the ? Yes we know, we always leave our tickets we don't lost them. Right. Ooh ! So they know who you are. Okay. We always keep them cos it's they can get you off Right. properly. Well let's go. Right Kelly Ann! Is Robert B, R B R O B B I T ? Say it again? Is Robert R O B B I T ? No! What is it? For Stephen. R O B E R T . R O B E R T. R O B E R T. R O B E R T . Robert. Choo choo choo choo, choo choo . Look, at er Stephen. What's that you say? Simon don't know why she left. My friends are talking Ah! What are saying? Go ahead. Mhm. Oh very good! Very, very good that is! Black okay? Er, I would do those er black wait a minute! Black, black black, black, black, yes. But dar light green, or like dark green? Oh green. Just er oh a light green. Okay. Have you go oh here we are. Oh no no . What? Those can be . You don't have to do Oh! They're I would do I would put it up there. I mean, what have we got there, that's all. Erm I would do it straight. Do you know a scribble and a a . Do you know that one? A scribble? I don't know. What is it? Is it Aye. I put that down there. Scribble. I think it is a You usually have them first. Pardon? I haven't. I can put this one down there. There! That's a scribble. You can make it yourself. Scribble. Was it the ? I think so. Say anything. Which one of the ? I only wish it were a new one. What are all those different colours for? Well it's blue. Mm. Doo be doo doo . You'll have to put it in and make one giant one together. If you say so. Do you think so? Everybody usually is. Yeah. I know. I've finished everything. Now we can Very good! Very, very good! I like that! You see People you see the rifles? Aha. You see these there? Yeah. Now, now not not that part there at the bottom. That's where the But you see that there is. brown Yes. cos that was wood, and that was wood, that was wood, that was wood, and that was wood. So it's dark, no what am I saying! Er that there's brown. See that part? The Mm. or the butt Right. and they would be Black? er, no well er, let's see have you a dark grey? No? No. I have no grey. Only a pencil. Only a pencil. No! Well let's see . What about And that part there would be brown, up to there. Up there. Do that part first, brown, to see what it's like. And that part with, and do that black, yeah. But leave those wee rings out. Aye. What will I do there ? The bayonet? Ah. Let me see. On the bits just here. Do do do that oh let me see. Well I've done that grey and I've done the, and do the Aha. Hold on a minute. pull grey? Now, hold on a minute. Well do that part brown first, and that part brown up to there. There. And do, aye, you do, they've got the rest of it grey, yes. That's brown, dark brown there and that there's What about that? grey. What about the handle, the handle bit? All there? That there? Aha. No, don't worry about that in the meantime. That black on, which ? Let me see. Very good! Yes. That's also very good. See I'm doing this grey for erm in there make it Well all muddy. well, that's okay. Now, what kind of an address is that?? Erm it's only coming from this way. What? There. No, but you put Donegall before road. It's D O N G A L L ? It's D O N E G A L L , Donegall. D O A ? D O , what? D O A ? Stephen, how long have you lived here? Erm, two years. It's, you've lived, er you lived in the , all your day! It's D O N E G A L L . We haven't . Mm. Oh Raymond I've done the butt black cos we're weapon. And the same? Oh I done the pull. Well that's okay. That's good! Right. Now what do we do? What does it say you have to do? The castle. beneath the castle fort. Alright. You might have to wait for . Okay. What's that there for? A skeleton. See, and I've just made out of the stomach. Mhm. Did the do How? Didn't you watch all the time? Do you watch all the time? No. Because you know Patrick just scribbles? Mhm. Does he? What are you gonna put in this? Yes. Mhm. Where's the, where's the brown? What? But Raymond What? . It's that policewoman! We will be hearing about Armagh. Mhm. About what a good time it is now. Right. And . Do you want to have with me? Mm. Are you doing County Armagh? No, I'm doing Belfast. So gonna have your as well. Oh well, it is a bit. We're gonna have a nice one. Oh are you? Where's the paint gone? Okay. Give it to you for fifty P. This is the best one . Want one? No. How long is the stretcher? I was gonna do it. You could do, could do the people li like that. Mm. chocolate. Mhm. Erm, when he first came out Do you want something to eat? No. You just wanna watch a movie all the time. What do yous wanna eat? Nothing. Nothing. Nothing? You're tired. Night. Watch the rest of this. I'm easy. It's up to yourselves if you don't wanna eat. I'll not force yous. So make up your mind kiddies. Christ that was on the way! Yeah. I don't know what happened to it. Stephen is that fire alright? Yeah, I've just got it going granddad. Right. Not that. Sara! Stop barking! Get into the back! Sara! Sara! Stop that growling neither! What? Maybe there's something in that There's something, what? No. They want to hang on or something. Erm what's that? What you doing? Putting on my shoe. I'm going to Martin's. If you're going out to play in that street, it's cold! I know. Take you're er I'm just taking a coat outside. It's raining. Ooh! What? I know you wouldn't. If you ruin the I gave you you're already in the ambulance ! Oh Jesus! I wouldn't wear it! Just take your turn, you see . You're going it alone. Did you like that story I told you today? Aye. I did. Ee ee! Hee ooh ho ooh ooh! Get it off! Mind you them! You won't get my stuff I gave you! You look more like a ! And really funny ! Oh yeah, imagine she showed you your mum . Did you not get the sack? No. Poor Robert! How, how do you get the sack? Did you get the sack or did you just pack it in? No I got another job. Packed it in. What was your other job like? Gave me a lift. Gave you a lift ! And then I, and then I started a to work for an asphalt company. What did you do there? Clerk. What's that? Office worker. Oh! You mean that was like funny and working and that ? No. It was down at the harbour in Belfast. And what did you do? Plenty of rocks. And did someone give you a sandwich and you and you put it back ! Oh no, no, I was more careful about sandwiches. No, what about the job? Have you got a, like a hair hair in your office ! What did you say ? And he gave you a job going . How would you him? What? The , the one that's to erm get the job ? I dare I see him. I would dare I see him. I would honestly. Sure it's more and get them brand new No. from Craigar Port No, no , no! I would like to say, or write to him to apologize to her but she's probably dead. What now? I dunno. She was sh Kelly, get a shovel of coal on. She was er maybe in her early fifties then and oh sure that was er nineteen oh eighty five, eighty five, Whereabouts is the coal? ninety five. Thirty, thirty odd years ago. Thirty nine years ago. Fifty, sixty, seventy, oh she might be still living. You go ahead. You can put everything on the back. Now you put the fire out the las so set it all nice and easy. No, now that's throwing it on! You set the shovel on top of the coal that's already there and tilt it and slide the other coal onto it. Oh! Stephen. Now put that light that fire again with . dangerous apart from that thing it is dangerous. Don't you's ever try it. Right. Set that on easy now. Set it down in the fire. That's right. Now slide it. Slide it down in that . On you go. What about that. I'll teach you something yet. There's the two the pieces of coal on the shovel. Put that on, now that's it. Aye. Have you seen what the they did ? Oh aye. You did? Oh aye. Alright, Okay, I'm joking! Right, what was it? One of the Me ee! Do you know that, her brother What? in that series? He used to be in Neighbours. Neighbours. Yeah, Mike. He still can't act! Get out of there! Steve,. Why do you have to shout at your dog? Did you tape record it ? Is he sick? Why? You see the way his eyes are red or going pretty dull he needs wormed. And what, why ? He needs worming tablets! There's worms in him! He's had them. Mm? He's had them. Didn't give him enough. Apparently when their eyes go dull it's they need wormed. Wormed, you need! Look at mine. Worms! Need worms Sara. Look at Kelly Ann's hers are black. And I'm the undertaker. up the bum! And I Can't talk now please! Do you like her? Yeah, she's alright. Where? He's shouting for her. We were down in the bar, up the club on Saturday night your Aunt Jean and Raymond and I and this fella beside us was drunk and he put his arm round this woman's neck, you know the thing, what about ? And he hit her, sort of a, you know, a slap in the back but her glasses were loose they fell hit the steel base of the table crack! What happened then ? Her glasses fell off her head and hit the metal base of the table and smashed in two. I think I told you. There was something argument afterwards! Where you going Kelly Ann? I'm just going to get Martin. You're not cold now? You not need a coat on? Just for the Do you know you've been off school from what? Last Friday? Yeah. And you've been out one day. Yeah. Were you out on Sunday? Or Saturday? He's lovely! I hadn't seen him before. Were you not with er your mate what do you call Yes. her? Lynn? her boyfriend went down. Oh the boyfriend's ba ? Oh she's got And a boyfriend? I'm not gonna know him. What about wee James who give you the wo ring? Albert's gonna kill you! We should deal with your daddy when he's drunk. Throw the towel over him and left him. We could have left daddy. You could drag him into the den. I don't like him now. In the black jumper. Blake. Is that what you call him? Blake. Jerk you should call him! Oh shut up! Ha! Ha! Get that dog in the back. Go on get into the back Sarah you fucking rotten! Get into the back! Get them in the ba , get her in the back! Jesus Christ I would kill you! That's scandalous, that! There's something wrong with that dog. It's probably got cancer or something. . Oh Chri something's crawled up it and died! Now keep it in there! Any Penguins left, no? No. That's eight, yeah. There. Right, B. What time is it? Six twenty. Five thirty five. It's the fifteenth of the fourth ninety two. Five thirty five P M. Belfast. So that's right. T V. T V there. T V show. B B C. Now oh Jesus! So aha, and Why did you look at ? seven P L,. What you whispering for? Kelly? What? What are you whispering for? Nothing. No you're not. It's quite good! What's wrong? My picture's in there. What picture? Oh, what, what book is it? Don't know. Found the picture. I haven't bought all these things. Oh! was born on that. He was born where? Orville Wright. Who? Watch Wright. her! You're gonna hurt her! No! Ah! Now you'll did he hurt your leg? No, my middles. Crunched it, so I did. Are there any biscuits left at all? No. No. Is there a Digestive? Get us one. No, get us two. I'm feeling greedy. Shall I get four, yeah? Don't forget, I won't be home by about eight o'clock tonight. Ha? But why? I think you'll just have stay in! What about soup or ? No, I don't like anything in that cupboard. All the rest are soup,. And a handful of baking soda, tonight ask your Aunt Jean to make it lovely. Do you reckon she'll get in there? No. That's for your daddy. I want yous to be quiet, I wanna hear the news. Please. I will be Here, he's back again. Ah, don't do that to your daddy's, give us that. Cos your daddy needs that soda bread. Don't tempt me. Go on! Ah don't! Don't! You ooh! ! Come on wrap it up for you daddy. Wrap it up! urgh! Wrap it up ! Ah. Oh and we're just not hungry. We're Ah. very deaf and it's too late ! Ho! What about this? She wore a red cloak. Yeah ! Me and daddy playing shoot. Whoop! Boing! You're supposed to You're boing! Yeah! Boing! But they're bound to . Why? Ah ! Ah! You stuck? Watch your tape. Watch it now. Aye, do you need them? Yeah. What? What? Ah, come on!, take them off! No. The bird he wants a biscuit . How about yours then? That's what I tell you ! What . I play with you. Oh a nice little yeah. Did you have one! No. Come on! How many? Oh no you don't get any. The them bottles are stinking! I know. They're rotten! What? Oh they're like they're not good for water! Don't do anything to me! I could hear the ! Well you were hungry a way down there but you would make good child. . Oh oh oh! Oh oh oh! Oh oh oh! Oh I thought was it . I want those. Just take it. Oh! Let go of it! Oh no! Let go of it! Jes that began with an Oh! Okay then. Those are very unhappy. People like me Well he's good. and he says he's skinny! I can't let you in. Ah, but he's solid. Get off! I'm begging you ! Be quiet! Now hear this! Raymond. Mm. See when your friend, that's the jam, and bread, and butter all over him. Do you ever,cu cos you could call him. Bread, butter, jam man! Stephen! You know me Mr and all these phone numbers. They should call him jammy man. Raymond and the jam man. Here, put that in the er sink please? I'll wash it in a minute. Thank you. You tape recording everything? He's taping everything ! I have to. Yes. Ooh miaow! You watch what your daddy say there. Remem remember what daddy said about that What daddy said about the road. main road. Are you going to , dee dee dee dee . And Mrs comes out the I will not have that. It's It's so when are we going out? How did the big dog get out? I'm not . You can get , you know. Erm He's going to help me out No! She'll be round the back. Oh Raymond. It's still Ra Raymond's dog just now. Did it? Ho ho! It's not very well. No. What was she doing? Ha ha! Jesus! That's going to take a long time. Oh! You didn't know that anyone was there . You're getting tall Kelly Ann. You are indeed. Get him off ! One of these days you'll lead me across the road. You're the you're erm you're the lollipop man ! Then I'll be going Yeah, it's lovely ! Look at that lava, look! I know. They're trying to stop it. Wouldn't like to put your foot in that. What? It'll burn your feet off! You could cook a chicken in that in about three seconds! Yeah! You could ! Why don't we have Lift it out. No, you wouldn't even have bones le you wouldn't even have bones left! Look! There's a house destroyed with it. Dear! Dear! Some people have asked me, Kelly, you've got a ! They're trapped. I wouldn't sit there. Why, well Raymond What? just say you're sitting there and the lava all just comes down. Jesus! it'll still keep on burning. It's still gonna burn. Aha. I'm gonna be warm in my bed. Right love. See you later. Oh Raymond. What? Da-na! Da-na! So Am I doing that? making ! Da-na! Three coats! Oh God! One, two, three, and a T-shirt , a jumper. You'll ! No, gotta get getting that one off ! Ha! Nothing new is there really? No Shaun! I told you I can't get them everyday now! Get my form every day! Gorgeous! That girl who was in the elevator plunged on the ninth floor she plunged a thousand feet to the sub-basement or there's massive big springs on it apparently, I read about it. Only read a wee bit. Smashed to bits? Mhm. Only got it that there's news. That should be in my daily . Oh! You should be getting out here? No, twenty past four when I start, like. I've , so then you're gonna be sacked! Have to aim at them, what time and you know things that You're alright , don't worry! There's no I assume that you've left. The kids! Is that yours. No! It's the people's. tell you in a minute. Have you put your age down? Raymond, fuck yourself! Alright , thirty nine right. Okay. Anything else? Fucking ! Belfast. You know, what's ? What's the matter? Fucking er Where do yo where do you get and then he well fuck you! He says well just work on then till half twelve. I said, we'll have to first time and yet it's all he wants and he was gonna take a day's pay off. Well This is your Life. It's your man, Chris Chris De Burgh? Mm. Ah ! He was sick this morning. Who was? The dog? The big one. Did you Can a feed them? Aye. It's er they got fed. And how's everything going? Oh, alright. Better go up and see Raymond. Have you got ? No. No post? Is that, no letters? Thank Christ! Sit! Now you stay there! There's your ? Tom Jones. Now stay there! What have we got for them, er Jean, for my tea? Plenty of soda bread baked. Lovely! What about you son? Alright. What happened to you? Dunno. I just last night falling in the bed just I hear you got an injection. Aye. Ha ! Did you feel it? Aye. They're not ? No. Oh Jesus! Did we get the tape recorder back alright? Aha. The girl came this morning. Said collect it on Friday night or Saturday some time. Aha. Can you not go to sleep? Do you want No. a cigarette? You needn't go into work tomorrow now. There's not a lot of choice, Bollocks! If you, to hell with the money son if you're not well! To put it bluntly. I hear he said you have your ticket to health you weren't gonna get paid. That's right. I'm only just glad we can't I dunno then son. You're okay now. He's much better. He's much better up there. Try and get a rest. Feed the dogs. Well you got enough today. Where's Brandy? I don't know. Aye. Oh aye! You're getting nothing! Did you want a cup of coffee? You see where I cut the Busy Lizzie. I did. I seen it. I almost chopped it. Well he did more than er cut it. Now you see these smaller ones? Aye. Ruth's cuttings. Well I put them Jes they're still coming out of it! What is the point! I put these in hoping and like, hoping that they'll grow. Those ones there, the three of them and that'll make it, you know fill the pot. And then, if they do take Jean Right. Do you want two or one? No, no put plenty of bacon! If you don't want it . No. No he hasn't got a Oh well that's good. So he did. He'll have to go without pay and I told him there and then. Good! Good! And what do, I saw Willie. He says, well you're a Kelly and Stephen said th didn't say read the paper. Well I think her are all down in the er I wanna take her upstairs for him. Aha. The rest are so there's about, a hell of a credit to King's Hall! Is there? Yep. You want out Patch? Well you're going out! Go on! If you wanna stay out, stay out! Stay there! Do you want your dinner Brandy? Just give her a bit. It's here. Mhm. Yeah, cos they haven't found why and then I said Aha. That's me out. And he said Look at the dogs trying to get in Jean. Look! Under the fence. Look! I know. Our dog. Maybe they're cold. Look! Patch ! Nothing like dogs though. It was in there this morning, in a way, it's got, got out somewhere. I think it just came back here for the milk and then it'll be away. What? I fell asleep today again. Probably , cos you were up about half five this morning. Do you want your dinner Brandy? And I hope you eat this. The Sun'll be free soon down at the er the what? That up town shop. What? She's going. She's going to remove her womb . Well she, what? Womb. Her womb? Fuck sake! Don't scare me Jean! Tell me you're pregnant, I'll be looking for a camel! And a star! Cos you know what they say? What? There's no camels come and play in my garden. She used to work with me And as long as you're I don't care what star you're following you're not bringing those camel through my garden! That's all we need now is Aye. Better than a personal one. It'll be me outside looking for star. Oh God! Shut up! Go on! Get away over there Patch! Patch! Get over there! Get in there! Get, get the hell! Go on! You go and get yourself . Go on! Here! Come on! She's in the car! Patch! Go get in! Go on! Oh where's the where's the paper? There's gonna be a Get in! She's after him. Here ha! Come here Patch! Patch! Patch! Come here! Get into the house! Go on! Go on! Come on! Hold the Patch, come in! Come on! Come on! Come on! Tease the paper. Patch come on! Call him again. Patch! He can't get past the garage Patch! and me. Come here! Look. Patch come on! Oh and there's Jan Come on! Patch come on! Come on! Come on! Come on Patch! Come on! Come on! Come on! Well they're calling me in. Come on! Come on! Come on! But no I want some Well he's not getting any! Was he sick? I think he's had enough. Come on! How's Harry getting on with your driving. Fine. Good! Well Call him now Jean, the other dog. Oh boy! Do you want to go out Brandy? What do you want, you want your dinner? Go and get your dinner. Go on! Here! Give him his dinner . Call him over. Do you want an egg rest of the baking soda. Oh God! No, love. No! What do you want? Just the baking soda. What? The baking soda. I've stuffed myself with bread in your brother's today. When he was at work. See that soldier that was killed in England? No. His father had a heart attack when he heard the news! . I know, ho. Terrible! Every me a soldier killed during Raymond, do you want a cup of coffee ? What? Ah . You know what the girl was telling me this morning? What? That dog's got into there. Do you want a top on that? I do. Aye. Please. Jean, one of our interviewers, er the girls was interviewing a man yesterday Aha. and he asked her to take off all her clothes ! Ha! Fuck off! Fuck the way off, you! Big git! Do you want a cup of coffee? Did you hear that? No. One of the interviewers went into a house yesterday and asked her to take off all her clothes ! Here! Here! Oh go away! Put your feet up. I better let that put your feet up Raymond. Raymond like put your feet up with around. Like, go away and I get my dinner! Jean, keep them away from that. Oh but I need you to tell him because of he'll, he'll wanna he'll wanna talk to me. Here Patch! When? Now. Who? It's over. Right. You better get up the stairs and tell Johnny what's happening. Oh ! You sure you're okay son? Mm. Now you got fed this morning Patch. Excuse me! Ah What are they doing Johnny? They didn't wanna come back. But he says but he'll not accepts the eleven o'clock. I says well Are you finished with your tape? No,thi , no not yet. I says the only thing is I says I bring them in and then finishing is closed. And there's and I tiptoe downstairs about nine. If I don't come up when he goes away and for the while he's on just say he's How the hell can they say only when he fucking hear him coming down the stairs! So I tiptoed downstairs when she knocked at the door Balls! I don't think it is Raymond. Get down! Get down Patch! He's a con man. Oh she's a con man. What's that on top of the speakers? On the television? Don't know. What is it Jean? Oh it's alright. It's only a leaflet in the cigarettes. Give him anything . Jean! They'll be no more of this! You tell if you see him tonight, in future, now it's not right! It's not right and I have to lie for him! It's not right and to the wee fella. He's behaving civil and I, that's not my form to do that. And I'm not gonna do it any more! No. The dog. A thirteen year old Belfast school girl swallowed seventy to eighty paracetamol tablets probably in the my Christ! Probably what? Because her mother, she had an argument with her mother when they, er she wa she was caught smoking. She died of liver failure. My God! Used to take four of them paracetamols. Mm. Yes. You're only meant to take them in small quantities now. She's, is that your coffee? What's up now? Ah yes, I've seen them on erm I'm not sure. Oh he makes . Should have just stirred it in. All the bits. Sure, in a couple of days they must have finished? Ah. What's he got under there? stick it on her. Are you going down to John's tomorrow or Friday? Friday. I told him Friday. Yeah. Say no. I think I can. She'll just stay. Is she very happy, Jan? Jean, that er antique fair should be on this month. Mhm. Do you wanna It is soon? I would imagine that it's very soon. Mhm. Should be near enough next Saturday. Will it be as close as that? I would say so. Ah, the first Saturday in every month. It's your first Saturday going. I'm supposed to be going on the third. Aye, maybe that's what it is. Bum bum, bum bum bum ! Urgh! God! I'm tired . Sure you are from half five this morning. I don't like your man there, that politician! Say he's very hot tempered. Ah! Aargh! Patch! Patch! Come on! Good dog! Come on! Sit up! Come on! Up here! Come on! Come on! Up! No. Don't touch that! Stop that! Stop it! Stop it Patch! Give me the mike you Leave it! Get that out of your mouth! Fuck you! Don't touch it! Be a good dog now. Where's my pen? Who's outside Patch? Patch! Who's outside? Eh? Yeah , poor cat coming round What's out there? and he's away to get fed. Mhm. Why, is that mine you're using? What? Mhm. What did you It's only about ten minutes. Well the It's slow. Watch the end of it. Ah? What? Wait till the end of this. You needed Them are in the Yeah. They're supposed to be lethal. They don't take sides. Trying to keep the two sides apart. Ah ah ah! Thank you Raymond! I barked at him this morning and he barked back. woof woof! Miaow! Miaow! Shut that door. Right. Oh! Look at that Jean! What is it? Lava, molten lava from a vol volcano. So if it's, if it was cold this morning then why is it so hot now? Because i it's cold on the top warm in the bottom around the middle, and then it started to move again. And there's stuff coming from the behind coming from. Ray. Excuse me! What for? Here. Take your time with that. Give me a cigarette there Jean? Bloody matches! I can't drink without lighting a cigarette. You can't drink without a cigarette? Sometimes, yeah. Yeah, I know. Here. Right dog! Good dog! Who's in that bar in the Rosie erm who do you see? You'll see the girls. If they did report a rape and they'd told him the woman opposite, at the top last night er, next week come back. Their walkie talkies break down! Their cars break down! She must be . She's been crying all night really. What? arrest him he just kept saying things. Need more than that. Not really. Not once you're in the How much would you need I know! But you're not gonna do the other times. You're gonna be away. Well see, they're twenty to three, right? Well not especially, you can get a lot of them made. No, no, no. I need to give him one. Well that'll leave three! Aye. One for Who? Well that's a terrible thing! Oh aye! And then . Some you gave me wi when I changed. It was very nice. And people were remonsta demonstrating towards a plea. Yeah. I saw the fella, no, he's in your mind. Look at that! A fella paid ten million pound for that painting today! Did he? Ah look, look at him, fat! Shouldn't really have that o th , all that . He's dead mind you, is, er it's all like hundreds of years and years ago. Th the owner? Oh aye! Look! Somebody offered him five million, the owner of it, and he turned it down and got ten million. Lovely! Look at that! Oh! This programme coming on is about people have bad dreams and all, and walk in their sleep and By Jesus!. The same thing a little while ago. No. He's got that say the road name. Terrorists aren't they Johnny Oh has Johnny still got it? But I don't know if there's anything No. John's still got it. Oh! Remind me to ask him in the morning for it. Aha. I'll go up now. Jean, I know it was windy today. It was a lovely day! It was lovely! It was good drying weather. Now. Can't you get them cleaner? If you can get them cleaner than that I haven't got a decent pair of shoes you know! The a pair you like aren't they? Mhm. Did you do them? What? Did you do them? No. Did you want them done? You know that dirty, wash them with something. That's right. Get the polish here. One Yes I know, and I can't find it. Well that's the way women should be! They should be slaves! As you were put on this earth for, to see to men's needs! Earned us money for drinking! Make our dinners, make our beds, and put your arms round us in time of need, and cuddle us. What about me? Well to hell with women! Yous live longer than men Jean, so men should Yeah I know. be getting er Well, do I take them off? No, your shoes. Oh sorry! Take them off. I can't disturb the dog. I will not take them off! I can't disturb the dog. Creep over the dog, creep over. Come on, move it! If you want them done. Looks really Erm, where's your ? Sergeant , what do you call him? The sarge? Come on now John! Keep the dishes and all me coming to you. Not who's near the road? Shall I for you? No, no no. Are you asleep? Are you sleeping there or what? He doesn't know he's being filmed. Wait till you see what happened. But what, what's happening there? He's away to sleep again. And that's you waking up in the morning. Yeah, we'll watch that Jean. Jesus! Yeah, when Sylvia comes in you go downstairs they're in behind her. Put the pope on. I see make my monies not out you fucker! Jean. I'd say Seem to be , he's Stop giggling! He's coming out. He wants out. Where do you wanna go? See they're either asking what goes on. Aye. They know about it. Here. That's funny! You haven't got to have any. That's like in Charlie's there the other day he was sleeping. Why? Could you not ? Aye, he's not on it. No post today? No. Well there's another fifty P Well you must need it. Come on Patch! No! What's that? Good dog! Good dog! Well I went in yesterday in at Riannes. . Come on! Get up! He'll be in your bed. Patch! Get away from that! Come on! Full of er, matches are in this. I think if I get up at half five in the morning Jean, I'll go to the park. Oh! They put in the er lighting system in in the Donegal Road. Are they? Mhm. Mm. Go away! Patch! Is that fire okay Jean? Yeah. Oh! Patch, my toe! Stop it! You're not doing my shoes with a black after No, that goes for tan colour course it doesn't go Yeah but black! But this kind of That's just to buff them up. What about all the dirt in the tow a a and the cloth then Jean? Where's all the black marks you wanna get out of them? You buff your shoes and the finishing touches with a very soft cloth and that's not soft. But Raymond , I'm not finished yet! Oh I see. Take those shoes off. What's that Jean. Where do you wanna go? I'd like you to change your name . Mm? Right! Oh, wait till I get sa I saw them . They're very good Jean! Oh they'll be very good! Oh yes! Saying, that we're needing new, you can only get a good shoe, and I got a wee good shoe. You know what you should do? No love. see in and you get leather dye and dye them black. Mm. You see brown, that brown will go with grey or a, or a dark colour. Pure black goes with everything then. You bloody tread down and What are you going on about Steven? another, or that colour. Looks a lot like grey in colour. Shoe shine mother, right! Yes mam! And go and wash your hands well Jean. Wash them very well. I'm going to. That colour's all getting to, my hands are all dark. What Jean? Jean! Aye. What did you say? No it's the best er medicine for you. You come in and I'll do it. Excuse me! Er I should get the doctor to call said I'd get things What was that, when you come out? Ah. Aye, will you leave that Jean. Where's a T-shirt? There's loads! Here's Raymond. That girl goes on the manor and Jack keeps guessing that's what, I should have looked for. There's a shirt on there. Oh aye. Don't, er you want these on the market, what do you think? I wanna . Just think it's best not to. Those shoes looking a bit, good polishing up. They're just worn in. Are they not them shoes? Ah? This chap at work's got them on. They're lovely! Jeez, they are indeed! What size are they? Eight and a half. Christ! Do I turn ri right there? Mhm. Just need to get cut ah, couldn't you use that polish on them? Polish them up. What time is it? Just stick to Fisons shoes anyway. Oh I know, yeah. Platforms. Who is it the gi , there are fourteen sizes there Oh! you see. washing them. You may as well let him get the use of them. They Why don't you get them for school for him? Oh right enough. They'll never balance his foot on them. Exactly! Exactly! And to one of them parents who Mhm. Thir thirty three. Mhm. That's what I would say. I put them away. Oh! I'll knock out all my polish here and put them away and knock that off. Aye. Polish them up. Cos that is, cos that's just a better idea then. Mhm. So he gets And the day before Wednesday these and it's her bread hasn't arrived with them. Because her bread won't come. I know. Something like that I'm sure. Gotta make sure the alarm goes off. That's okay. Where's the cigarettes? I better be sure it's er, what Friday night cos I did before. Are you not sitting down son? I'm off to get totally pissed! Oh! You're going to get pissed! It's quarter to ten. What do you want? Can I have er are worse things to do than getting Now Now that's not nice! Jean. I mean, if you stay sober. When? You can join your Boy Scouts. He's a lonely Give us a light Jean. but just, he needs a wee drop Give us a light. of drinking. So wha what did he say you had, a was it a high temperature you had and that? No, he took a sample of urine and that. Brown shoes. Do you wanna see them? They'll do for best won't they?and back now. Jesus! He's only worn them in! I don't think they'll fit Willie but they're too tight for him. All they need is a, a lick of polish. Aha. Now no more lies for them it's Oh you better get a big sheet of newspaper. How do you feel Raymond? I'm okay lying there. Knackered? No, not tired now. Them two standing at the top of the stairs and Oh aye, aye, aye! Let me, come here Jean, let me see! They're Willie's. I know. But Willie I'm rubbing these down. and erm he's doing us a favour and some round to get Patch and er he said he'll get lots That's all ready for Simon now and he forgot his bag. What are the T-shirts like Jean? There's a black one and a special one. Right. You better get a sheet of newspaper Jean, old newspaper because that'll fly all over the floor. I don't know. I don't notice it. Does it say there? What th what is it? Oh it's just the Express but Today's? Well it is, ah. Oh ! I was down at the library today. Were you? Mhm. And I bet that'll never do it for sta too long. On the T tonight it says there was a man started who started only started to do the pools, Raymond er, six months ago And he won. won two million! A record two million! What, in the name of Jesus, would you not do with million? Aye. You know what I'd do Jean? What? First of all, I would er buy a chest freezer then I would Aha. go to the supermarket and I would bung it of the best of stuff. Then I'd go down the town buy us all clothes then, you and I would go out for a private dinner Jean. Aha. And I would buy you the most Elegant. er, elegant piece of jewellery that I could find. You deserve it! Putting up with us all these years! Damn little money! And then we'd all go on holiday. Then, move house. And would you be able to do all that then? Out of the ghetto. Ah? Would you be able to do all that? With two million? Oh, four times over! You always hear about these stories but never seem to happen to anyone. The man wants to remain anonymous, and quite right! Do you think I would, wouldn't put an X on a football coupon maybe they do. I must start. Oh it's Your life would never, your life would never be the same, but Jean yo yo you live in this country, you live in dilly forever. Get nothing. If I found you'd won a hundred thousand pound I'd kidnap you! Do you want a cup of coffee son? Alright. Cup of tea dear? Er yeah, please. Jean. What? There was a programme on today you'd have loved it ! It was about an old people's home Aye. but they were all stars er, in their day, you know? Stage and screen, you know, and radio? Yeah. Ah God! Some of them were a sorry sight! Oh God! It was very sad. Yeah, one of them's I think she was in her early eighties she, they put on a Christmas party and she sang. It was good! Hey? I enjoyed it. Ask Raymond if he wants one sugar, or two sugar in his coffee. One. One he said. What's down there? I don't know. He's gonna get himself killed. Was Micky in work today? Ah? Do you work with him? Aye. Did you tell him you weren't too well? Oh aye. That's a stupid advertisement! He'd give up his job for a pint! Aha. Pint of beer! Jesus! What he's gonna get on the dole money, he'll not drink too much. What you ask yourself is Raymond, how long does it take to charge up again. I know. Probably overnight. There you go. Thanks love. What's oh! Is Benny Hill on tonight? No, was he not on last night? Oh maybe he was. No, tonight he's on. What? Tonight he's on. What time's he on at then? Jean, er what where's the paper? Right! Says it's on, on at eight o'clock. it's on. Is it? Yeah. Sa ah June twenty seventh of Januar er September. Oh, I'll have to see Erm that. Go down and saw it. Lovely! He's in films. Yeah. He is. Mm. Very nice. No it's not on now eight did you say? Mm. Go back. Mm? Eh! Get down. Is the tape on? What? He's not on tonight. Benny Hill. No, the Benny Hill, and that was on last night. Well why didn't we see it? Must have been watching something else. What tapes are there? What time is it? Half eight? Twenty five to nine. Alright. Well near as be damned. You can turn it on to your B B C two, they wa there are, says a programme on a a thing out of humans, about soul. The soul? A soul. That's nice. Mm. Was Karen staying late Friday night? They were. They were indeed. There's a couple gassed themselves, and their son in their car because their dog died! Fucking stupid Oh dear! are they? Bastards! Fucking killing the child with cos of stinking dog! As much as I like dogs, I wouldn't do that. Jasper and Jennifer and the dad had their new car and it was coffin car. And there's a car for towing caravans and . That's sad! I hope my headache doesn't . Yeah, wait for me too, ah? . Oh ! Urgh ! seen the shower? No. Right. I didn't love. There's an writing in the paper beside it her daughter's pregnant by her boyfriend and she's pregnant by her daughter's boyfriend too! Ooh God! . Dipping the wick! Dirty fuckers! And she's The daughter sh she was lonely she left the er the girlfrie her her daughter's boyfriend threw the leg over. Right? And now she's found that her daughter's Pregnant with the same man. Same man. Now what would that be? She's aunt and uncle and their aunt, and mother and oh the fuck! I don't know. I don't know! Granny and She's granny and she's mother. Well she's a mother there overnight, she's granny to the Daughter's child. I don't know! So And they have the father of the two children. Is there anything else on then? Or . Mrs . Dunno how Maggie first sat down with him. Ooh this is a horrible programme! We always think with religion. What? We always think That's not your , how do you afford so many holidays? It's now fourteen holidays. Sure they cannot take one big er, holiday. Ah? Then you owe me so many hours don't you? Was Carolyn there? What? in yesterday, but he phoned up and says er, I don't really want her to go. Who? Aye. She's the one who lives down Latlogan doesn't she? Caroline had a stroke too. That's the hundredth stroke she's taken! Is it a te , is it a ? Remember Joyce ? Lived in Brown Square. Ah! She's went to about ten granny and granddad's funerals! You get sacked after, I think, about the, the ninth or tenth one! Well I can't understand it, because erm you get, now he's getting paid and I'm scared to ask for another day! Cos they're after him. They're after him. Maybe. Maybe that's who they're against or something. What? Oh aye! Batteries! Bring us two out. Right. Or oh no that's a different box. That's the wee stand, remember me to give that back, it's the stand for the mike. Where are they? There's the thing there. Kelly said today that our that daddy had a, a book you know, about Northern Ireland guest houses and all where to stay, you call it. Mm. Says he's taking you away, aye. And I says well is he gonna stay overnight, you know, with these two? She says aye. She says get him, get him to take your mummy. Hope he doesn't want me to traipse about with Lisa. Now, next day, er Thursday I'll bring them up here Jean. Take them to the park. And we're gonna be, he's on the earlies next week, and the following week. He's on the early next week. That's what I mean. But, George is off Monday and Tuesday but so if you were getting them, sitting here and bringing them up on Thursday John can come here and get his tea here and then take them home. Aye, but I'll have to go down next week because they're off school. That's what I'm telling you! On the brew day you could come up. Bring them up, yeah. And I'll get their And I'd say to John tea and John could come up here and get Yes. them and then take them down. Yeah. I wonder, is he trying to get her back into the house and she doesn't wanna come back. Well, that's alright. She's just have to Is she, she's in the ask Graham, you see, if Yeah. she doesn't wanna, she'll find But if she her way again. Yes. I understand that. But if she's living with someone else how does she explain her absence the weekend she goes to John? Unless she says she going to so to go over and spend a weekend now and again with her kids but er that sounds right. Aye, but And he doesn't be there. But, I, what I can't understand is, why all of a sudden does he want her back and see the children, well for over a year he kept her away? Told the children lies. Unless he doesn't know she living with someone. You know that saying Jean? No. Oh what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive. What's that? This dog here's taking over this house! I know. John's dog's not too well. No? No. What's wrong with him? He's very listless. I said to Kelly Ann today, maybe it's fucking, erm sorry, maybe he's dying. Cor! I shouldn't have said it. Sure Brandy's fighting. I was telling Stephen today the story of a did I ever tell you? No. Did I ever tell you Raymond? My first job driving a lifting in the Harrow Street? No. There was a Mr and Mrs , Stephen was and there was a Mr and Mrs , the caretakers, and they lived in the third floor of a flat there. And, the first day I started right enough, they were awful kind, awful kind they were English people, I think. They were. He had a bad arm. But anyway, er well I'd, God forgive me! He's laughing, the boy! Raymond's jumping about laughing! I dunno, er yes, I was eating jam, bread and jam today. And anyway, the first day she gave me right enough, she came round every morning with my breakfast and brought it into the lift for me. But, the first day she gave me bread with jam and butter on it. Now, you know I can take jam or butter But not butter and jam. That's the most revolting taste! And instead,instead of telling the woman I I pretended to eat it couldn't finish it I put it down the lift shaft. See? Oh Christ, no! The next morning the same thing happened and I still hadn't the courage to tell her. Cos I was that grateful for her, you know, making it. Ya. Jesus Christ, Jean! You wanna have seen the butter and the jam, and the smell of it! I can smell it now! Oh God! But anyway this went on for weeks and weeks, and I kept on it down the lift shaft. Instead of taking it out to the back and throwing it in the bin. Mm. Or you could Right. keep it in your pocket and take it home. Never thi never thinking! The lift shaft was about three foot deep. Sorry! Th the the well of the lift, you know from the er,ju , when you went to the bottom floor Aye, at the bottom, right. I would say there was a drop of about three feet, right? Down. So anyway, after fucking weeks and weeks and weeks I had come out to me one day, and Mr came out and he said to me he had a wee bucket and shovels and he says er bring me down to the first floor so I opened to let him out and he gets out and he says to me, now take her half way between the first and second floor and stop her. And I says okay, but why ? He says I'm gonna clean the lift shaft. Oh! Well Holy Jesus ! Oh God! Clean it? He says, I clean it every now and again. People throwing, you know, cigarette packets and all down it. Oh my God! So when I couldn't say a word, so he was able to open the lift door, you see, from outside. Yeah. The lift was immobilized. Once the door was open it couldn't move, so I couldn't go down on it. Well he jumps down into the fucking lift shaft and he slipped on i oh eh well you fucking bastard you! You bastard! Honest to God Jean! He slipped on the jam and the bread and the butter. Must have been bloody moulded and everything. Bloody moulded! Jesus Oh hell! Christ! Oh my God, Jean! What did you say? What could I say? It came up on his elbows and all, and his trousers were covered and there's bloody jam, er this concoction! Oh Jesus! Jesus! That's terrible, isn't it? No, they were, they were awful kind. I forget what I said to them but the they forgot, the next, I don't think I got a bit of grub ever, since then. Do you blame them? Not until he left. But I it was only butter and the jam today that er,thi this came into my head. Oh my God! That was nineteen fifty three. This is nineteen ninety two. And I, every now and again I'm embarrassed by it. Every now and again I think about it and I'm deeply embarrassed. You should be. After doing that to her cooking! Jean. When he slipped in that muck he could have cracked his head against the side of the lift shaft! And I couldn't have been, I couldn't get out to help him I was stuck between the first and second floor! Well I took it up about six or seven feet, you know, from the ground floor. Mm. When I say the first floor, I'm talking about the ground floor and the first floor, you know? Drink your coffee lovey. .Well in that today he says er when I seen the syringe coming out I just, I'll not be in the room if he's getting injected. I wouldn't have let him give it to me. Remember the time I took to vertigo? And the minute he walks through your bedroom door, I says no. I don't want any injections. I was in the toilet, giving him a shot,and I come back in and he just stuck in the syringe, there was nothing you could do. Did he take a sample of urine away? No, he went out to the car and brought my cards, he said he'd got it in my notes. Oh! And what did he say? He says his urine was alright and his was al Oh well, that's good. alright. But he said there's all Oh! He won't take a breakfast in the mornings any more. He goes straight to work. And th , and then he said talking about putting weight on nearly. What did he say? He asked , erm has he put any weight on? And I have said yes, because there's a couple pairs of his trousers has ripped because he has put weight on. Right. But he didn't say anything when I said he has put a bit of weight on. Raymond. Drink affects us all different. There are no two people affected by drink the same way. I know. Now we're all individuals when it comes to that. Now, you could be one of the people that drink harmed quicker than maybe, say or maybe I'm ta injured quicker than you with drink. I mean, there are people who can drink va vast quantities never seems to affect them. They're up like a lark the next morning. Jesus! Me, like I mean, that's got now, my age, I'm not fit for three days! Well, for two days anyway. But, it's possible that, the same amount of drink, two people drink, taking the same amount of drink one is affected more badly than the other, or worse than the other. Yo it's possible you could be one of those. So you wanna be careful, like. There's no way, Raymond, you should be able to drink two or three of those bottles o of that cider in ne in the one night, it's not good for you! Or vodka either! Well you, you don't drink that amount, but you know what I mean. Stop,. Jean I'd love a vodka now! I'd a love a vodka and coke! I'd give al almost anything. Would you now? I would sell you! You would sell me? No, I wouldn't. I'm only, you know I'm only joking. There er, there is none in the house I know there's not, maybe that's why I've Where did you get that lemonade up the stairs Raymond? Mm? It's finished. The cider, it should be ottoman ? Inside the ottoman. Did you get a bottle? I didn't think No. I get a bottle of that. No, no. Raymond said to me the other day, I asked him was there any lemonade? And he said yes. He went up and got a bottle of Sasperella he said to me there was two bottles left. So when the Sasperella was brought down, that was at the end of it. And there was two bottles Yeah cos you had the rest of the orange ? No I didn't! I got no orange Jean! I gave you a drop about that much Jean, you didn't! You didn't! You didn't! Yes, I swore to God I did! Jean you didn't! Raymond I did! You asked me for that? Oh yes! I remember. I said yes, and I gave I you some. I beg your pardon. I beg your pardon. That pup's, I think that pup's absolutely taking over this house! I like that dog. Last time there is the same thing as last night, they've lost someone as well. You had a good day in ? Mm. They gave him a good , and he looked over his chest and his heart and er, pulse. And his urine and everything. Then they took your temperature. I noticed you called him Chris again. I said you're on cars again John. Ah. Is your man talking that's in that big programme? No. What are the teachers trying to tell you here? No! It's certainly got the right ones there. He's not getting it! Willie Aye Willie is Willie. got a few clothes and the better. Let the dog out Jean if he wants out in the back. Jean, the Golden Girls are coming on. Okay. Jean! I'll fix that up for you. The Golden Girls are coming on in about what? Ten minutes? I'll see to that. Can you make or what was I saying? Is that right? Mhm. I need one pound for the bus fares. And thirty P for the paper. Thirty for the paper and But I think so then. That's twe , that's three twenty for Mm. today. And it's twenty P eighteen, seventeen, be enough for Right. But you'll have to before a day. It's only because you didn't tell your bloody brothers! Anne. She's the only one . And then having to actually pay us again. I don't know what's wrong with this paper, this pen won't write on it. I know. Hang on. Did you say I've done wrong then Raymond? Like I say something then? Ooh, there's not shine in That's nonsense isn't it? What? I would get a better, I'm not saying I'd get a better shine than that. I would have them like shoes. Turn that over to on your way past to four and I'll make you a cup of tea. Can I have, erm, I can't go up the stairs yet. woof woof! He took a front page off that. woof woof! Fucking mad! Ah! We can't all be sensible! Woof, woof, woof, woof! It's alright when you're going down, you spoil them and I say woof, woof, woof! And then you see that. Just a li little arm in there. Look! Suffering Jesus Christ and Not wet? He should be there every time cos she's gonna be out with the kids and all. No, I can't get up. Well where is she? Oh! She must have came here to just number ten so far . Lie down! This is like Oh we didn't phone yet. We didn't book the leg of lamb. No. I forgot how many we got round here Mm. because we needn't to sit them down. It's just that er I'll tell her anyway otherwise we might have the sack. Mhm. That we couldn't get out. It's the truth. Oh there's a skip outside Mo's tonight. Wasn't there till this morning. Oh! Skip outside Mo's with all the burnt stuff in it. I complained. After a , by the time you get off it was alright wasn't it? Aye Brandy, I know what you want Ah! What you gone, right in the hole? The door's open! He wants you pat him. Did you, did you have a new tape in? Not for sweeping. Will you piss off! John was home before seven tonight. And I got the book it must have a bus you know ano , another, an extra bus on because he was allowed to get off at the tonight. I think it's the last one, as I said. I was expecting to wait till about a quarter past seven. What you playing at? What are you saying? It's hard to be a woman. To just one man . What do want mum? I don't mind Do you hear thunder? It's that got your feet on the dog, it's stinking! You wanna smell their dog. You wanna smell their dog. Why? It's stinking! And I mean, stinking! She's grabbing you, put her down. Mind her tail. woof woof! Come away from that. Why don't hear this programme Jean. This was done years ago. I've no idea. I meant to say Jean, you know the motor You told me about the motor. we'll just say that Kerry and Sandy will be coming to collect it. What? Then, a couple of minutes. Thank God for that! Alright Steven? I'd like to go on there. It's the only way to be Steven. No, you're alright, sure. This is great! Ooh! Er! I've been drinking vodkas all night. Mind you it's Patch! Simon must have bought me about five vodkas!my throat. Thank God I missed myself. Friday night. Took seven or eight. My God! Raymond would be on his back! Eh? He'd be on his back if he'd had that amount of drink. Drink makes me very tired, yeah. I'd have , I'd have about fifteen or fourteen I'm, I'm knackered now! Just fall asleep. I wouldn't try and to go and fall asleep. What? You won't believe it! What's that? Aha. That's a damn nuisance and all too! Where's the now? She doesn't have to come inside. Right next to daddy there. Right Kerry! Take care love! Okay Kerry? See you later! See you in the morning. Yeah, cheerio! Cheerio! Well, cheerio! Do you reckon, do you reckon she'll be alright? Better start walking there now, takes a bleeding hour to get round there ! Why, where does she work? I dunno ! God knows! That's what I mean, I've gotta go out with the chippie van. Johnny never went I dunno! You, you gonna hide them shoes? Well I'm not That'll be in there and give him a bit of encouragement. And the er, I should think I said, er Ray they're going What? They're going away. Ooh! They got to go out tonight. I was standing there the other night Aye, I know. saw her go past me up the street. She didn't? What was she doing? Kept fucking, blowing her fucking hair or whatever it's called! It's called My darling looks like that from half past seven onwards. I didn't even talk with him. You bad boys! Said she's been Oh aye, she's a lesbian in it. I think. This was on before. Mm mm. Do they know she's Mhm. The ma does. Is it you that's got a paper? Dad? So,? Oh it was great! Mm. Well that's nice is it? There was a bit in the box. It's empty. I bet she's eaten it! But it's empty. Does it matter if she took it? Not at all. Only children. That if she's I bet she's eat the chop's in her mouth. Raymond please take that off! She's talking to me there so I have to. Well there you are. Know where you're going? Aye. Faint heart never won fair lady. True. Where is this road? Chip wagon? I think, yes, I have to go to the chip wagon. Wherever that, Are you going? Aye. I know where it is. What? I just follow the nose. Not at all! Not enough bank notes. Oh! Don't forget he's in the Go on the trams. He's in love! He's in love! Leave him alone! I'm not in love. I've never been in love. Well, once. But, she's not gonna be wearing that He loves his mama. I know. Well, it's not that either. Jean. Been in love once. I had, aye. From Ireland? No, she were an English lass. But she bit me! Glad I kept a straight face afterward. And where you going? Mm. So er she's on trial. saying if our dog's on trial that's all. See you later. What that, where you're, don't let them get out! I'll leave it till then. Okay. That looks better. Are you sure? Aye. Oh no! You might them down on this. Oh yeah, I know. She's fallen, she's fallen for the grey woman. Patch! With Rose? Which one's Rose? The one that's always talking about her young day ! Oh about the farm one? Yeah. Aha. See, I was talking to Steven and I got lost. Yes , I understand that. Where's the dog? Dunno. Raymond, you're like something out of the Wizard of Oz! With that hair! I feel it! You said it'd be all , where is he? So I wonder where William is? I suppose so, if one stayed. It's only half ten. We'll have to get the girls back, Steven. It will it will cost money. There's a wee square I dunno what you call the material, bakelite or whate , not bakelite, it's a it's for use in electrical insulation and when you it's cracked I think, it's not the grill, the wires of the grill the actual Patch! I thought John says all Johnny , get that dog down ! I thought John says all you have to do is replace the grate and No. It's, the thing that you push it into, the two prongs will do. It's something else. No, the two pro , the thing that the two prongs sit in is cracked so naturally say it had to go into a hole that size, right? Mhm. And then, each side of it's making contact and it's gone into a hole that size, and it's moving it ain't making contact. He, bet you he's got toilet roll up there! Well I'm not going up! Patch ! He's most probably waiting. It's not like that er, T V dog you see where big string of toilet roll, it and it maybe in fucking pieces! Stop that Brandy! Patch! Patch! Patch! He's up here. Is he with you? He's in our room Johnny. He's not with you at all. Come on Patch! Come on! You turned into a rabbit Johnny? Come on Patch! Come on Patch! Come on! And I want their names. Go and ring that up. Patch! Urgh! Urgh! Urgh! Urgh! This time last night I was in bed. You should be in bed now. Raymond. Will you take the big one? Do you want out Brandy? Patch! Stay there! Stay there! Come on Patch. Er, Brandy. I should have taken you a walk tonight. Eh? Come on up! Come on! Get up! Danny Thomas is a man. Hiya William. Hi. Alright now? Try them on. Where were you William? At er Well did you go there again Billy? You're not twenty yet. Did you see Q E D? Mhm. Mm. This guy wasn't it? Mm. Scared if I get to my bed ! He must have thought he was dog cos you see him sniffing round. Or doing something, then he leapt over the camera. Mhm. What sort of a game's that? Sure, I didn't know him you see. That's You're telling lies! They're gone. Will you give us it up. I can't, look at the dog, Jean! Jesus! So it is. Mhm. And it's general knowledge. So? It's not a game. What's that? Where's you answer the questions? Like . you're right. No they're not. Like, you want them, bloody take them! Where did you get? So they are. Did they pick you already? And you wanna see a few t-shirts. Look at her! And you'll have to thank Sylvie . Just say a wee thanks very much. What about that? Now if you think they're too tight I bet your come right out and rip them and come out over Good. Alright. Good. How long have they been on you? They're a great shoe aren't they? They are. These are the one, mum I wanted you to get? I know what you're gonna do with them. Keep them for school. Right. Your boots, or your braids, and them white ones for try the other one. One foot's bigger than the other. Try the two of them on. Oh Christ! She's sleeping in her room. See the woman had to get the alarms. Mhm. Have you the two of them on yet? That's er foot must be smaller than the other. What? This one foot, they must be than the other. Yes, that's probably so. Is it too small for you? No. Are they comfortable? Right, honest to God Jonathan, they aren't. I can feel it, that there. Gotta get used to them though., it's . No, say! He doesn't want them and he's not getting them! I don't want them! Aye! They're too tight. That's your daddy's feet with a You never look a gift horse in the mouth. I think they're alright lovey. I don't think they're too tight at all. See Steven? Aha. Daddy. Can I listen to one of them conversations? There is no conversation son. That's No. mainly on It doesn't matter. Get her off me! You're scum! Oh eh! Do you know when this arrested? Tonight, yes. What bread's there? Well I moved it ah? That's brown. Ah, but what about the morning? I don't take out any. No, but I do, and your mummy, and Raymond going to work. Two, four, six. You take two rounds Willie. And there's a bit of ham left. Where? Where the tomatoes are. Don't take it all. That is still leaving six. Well then, if you take two and that'll leave us six. I want half of that ham left. Mm mm mm. Do you want thin or sli thick slice of bread? Do you want two rounds and thin ham would be lovely! Well I won't be too happy if there's no bread. Well what do you want? What? Would rather have erm erm, prefer scrambled egg and toast? Jesus! No, we'll leave it till the morning. but you haven't gotta get Da da da ah ah ah, da dee Is there no biscuits in there? Not in the wardrobe. I asked John. given him Thursday. Mine. I'll,he let you have a couple. Please. There's one packet of er Well I'll let you. I'm not starting the box. Well you, hold the dog up here in mid air. No, I can't do that. I'm only joking! You sit there and I'll get them. I don't want any. Balls! Did you watch Inspector Morse as well? Parts of it, son. Shame about the stupid didn't think it just happens. Aye. Tell me, where did er James get the tape? Neil? Sorry, Neil. Sorry! Well do you know what brought, brought it up about computer games? We were playing his tonight. Right. And I was looking through the videos there. Go on, have one he says. they got videos for nothing. Did he say where he got it? But er he's, er he was playing with that the other day. With the one Ah! and that's probably what he said. Mm. The dog's dreaming. Get them? No, I'll just get them. Look at the bloody dog! What? Dreaming. Found them? Shall I sit on the dog? You what mother? Not much to let down. Willie the dog is getting to me. What er Every single, first night then, then Willie? Who? But it wasn't to be. What's wrong? It's her. Why? It's that Angela is it? You seem to able to go in there. They went to the back of the programme there. Just do me a boiled egg and, and a round of toast an And like most of the bedroom What's that? They're coming off. Come beside you. That's right. Come here! Here! Here! Come here! or sleep. What'll be best to do? I heard a certain story that you got a girl pregnant? No, she wasn't, alright, it was alright. Well son I love this! Don't touch it! Don't touch that, Brandy now! Brandy! Whoop! Dog! Shouldn't be ne Yeah. don't even touch it! Dog's a Ruined all, they are. I'll wring your neck for you! That dog's That dog looks What? That's Raymond's, yeah? Mm. Thanks. Speak English William, for Christ's sake! Mouthful of food! Go away rat pack Patch! Go on! I didn't know, I thought Lennox Lewis was finished with his boxing career, was he not? Mm. I dunno. I don't understand it, so I don't bother Jonathan. Is he knocked out? What do you mean? Mike Tyson too. Pardon me. Johnny, what did you think of that fight earlier on? Who? Foreman! Crap! What? Well Lennox Lewis his boxing career has finished, no? He's a big boxer now isn't he Jonathan? What? Shaun! What? Shaun! I said who! We're trying to get a conversation out of you and you're grunting! I says, aye! Oh, that's a conversation , yeah! Got a problem? Mm. Who? There's no problem at all. I know there isn't! So tell me, you went to see this girl? I got another tape for the computer. What do you call it? There's no problem Johnny! It's just normal. I won't, I can't understand what it is, but it says general knowledge. Do you wanna try it? There must have been a series, general knowledge three that's I want to watch the Mm. football fir I'm watching the boxing first! Is that Mickie Duff, the promoter? Aye. He's got bother with the police. Turn it on, see what it does Willie. Aye, go under the stairs. I'll try it in the morning when yous are all in bed. I don't want anybody trailing at the back of that television with that new ariel lead we got put in! Which I'm not paying for any more! Right! Ten, twenty, thirty, forty no it's not enough. I think it's about fifty odd quid to get a remote control set a remote control handset. Thirty five Well let me see that stammer. . There's a new one there. This is ! Have you missed, you didn't seen your daddy have you, tonight? Er, give me a bit of rest, the thing will only answer, burn out. Well, get her down again until Jan Up! And bring her home again Aye. if she's Come on Patch! Come on! Come on! Patch! Come on! Come on! Come on! Come on! Come on girl! Come on! Come on! She's up all night with the Come on! Excuse me. Who's ? He's lovely! When you see Neil tomorrow ask him does, does he know anywhere we can buy some of them tapes second hand. The A C twenty. You just want any tape boxes? You're gonna have to watch Jean, if anybody offers you them that you haven't already got them. I know that. We're gonna have to take a list of what we've got, and if we ever see an advertisement and we're gonna buy them, say oh no, I've got that one and that one, and that one, and that one. But I've now taken this out tonight. Yeah, I expect that Johnny's , do you ever do any? Where's the matches? Does a dog carry around diseases? Yes. Dad, you see for my no, I don't suppose there is any. Look. Well if I get those because I walk, the way I walk wears the front of the soles of the shoes down. Right. Right? And I can't afford it. Can you put them on the back of that shoes? Not rubber soles. Not rubber soles. It's out of time son and leave it. You're gonna have to buy a pair of cheap shoes, to save those when you go in church. That's okay. Can't afford to get them soled and heeled all the time. Yeah. Your dad has to sit and polish his shoes anyhow. Patch! Those ones? Aye. The tan ones. Put them down son. Well I'm only looking! See when you get them socks off then why don't you throw them in the bin. Please. Do you wanna stick that tape on Willie? No. Kerry was saying last night she's choosing tuition. How many does she take? Is it one a week? Aha. Or two a week? Ah? Normally a Tuesday night. Just one a week. Did you hear me boy? Couldn't I put it on? Gee! I told you not to! Here, wait a minute! Here son, here. I'll turn this off. Er Right for the girl. All of this. Now, anybody comes in can see it's going. Fuck's that? It's er it's a like a it's like a it's like a you put sa You know that's puzzle master don't you? Oh yeah it's meant to be in the end there. It's a puzzle master! Well we'll see! Please stop now! Alright! Now don't let's go o overboard here at this time of the night. Come on Patch! Come on up. Up! Come on. Come on Patch. from you. Alright Willie. Put your tape machine back in the thing. What? The tape thing. I'll put it back tomorrow. Put it back on the television. You won't Johnny? It always says error and two, four, seven , why's that? No it doesn't. Mm. It only does error for something wrong with the machine. The game's over. When you pull this out and it goes the next time start it turn it over, rewind it to the front. Just turn the machine right o tape right over and use the other side. See what happens. And you'll need that machine there back a bit from the television as I've already told you. Aye, it's moving this. Now all you gotta do is to move, that's right! I'll just move this. No! Now don't look funny now Willie! And stretching it I'm not being funny! and stretching it like that. What? You're very unpleasant when you're like that boy! They know how. No they don't. That's the terrible thing Jean! They think they do. That's what I meant. There now, stop it! Just stop your tape first and er turn it over to the other side first. Turn it round. Now wind it back. I wouldn't do that. I wanna see what's on the other side. Right now. Very clever! No Willie! Stop it! That's right. Does this play in Neil's house? I don't know. No, he hasn't got a machine that cuts out. Try and stop it. See what I mean? That's going on. Excuse me. See what I mean, the other side was alright. Johhny look!soccer outdoor loading. Oh yeah. Has it done the mountaineering one? Yeah. I'll That one. Patch! Where's the paper?with Arthur Ash with AIDS. I'd be really frightened. With all the Well how are they gonna know? What is it doctor said? Tell him to come back to him or Well you can take yourself to hospital. But did the doctor say he'd come down and see him No. in a couple of days anyway? Right. I wish they would Oh Jesus Christ! We've ourselves in hospital. and peace and things and the poor people who died as well. Raymond , I know all about it son. Right. I think I'll after tomorrow afternoon. Have you eaten them sweets? No. Ha! And he can't get up you see. He don't. Well , he needn't, I mean I would have stayed in bed. Really? Looking at his chest, looking at his chest it upset me there. And he was only gonna say nothing. If I were you I would woke up today and all. He told me, like, I turned round and says have you left them on? I know. He's left them on fourteen odd hours and they'll be running out. I can do that tomorrow night. Jesus Christ Almighty Johnny! Can you not What's all that for? tell her what you have! I told her! That's your bus fare down the road to buy nothing! Johnny, you'll not get That's what you'll get. a job son sitting on your arse! Or in the club playing snooker. He says that he'll be able to have that one it work and I'll work for him tomorrow. Och! Now don't be silly It's true! Raymond please! But I, don't know why he says that. Good job he's not insured for it. What'll you do now daddy? How does it work? Aye. Turn the machine off quick! Will you just let it go, it's still loading. William! Turn the machine off! . It's still loading daddy. Turn the machine son. William, put it back to yo you had it back there, the far side, put it back. Right now. Now, wind it back. Now you try and break that again son and I'll put a foot in the back of your head! It's as simple as that. You get irritable at this time of night when you get tired and you get ill mannered, and I don't like it! So go to your bed if you can't behave normal. He ha! It's not even rewinding that up. Well then it's rewound isn't it? Aye. Then press them two buttons whatever you do. I just There's an error. That comes up as waiting because it's not the right side. Whoever's on the phone? Oh God, Jean! Will you give it a rest love! Please. All for a game. Did you hear daddy up at half five this morning? No. Talking to your dog. You're a bad dog! Yes! I never would have messed about. Right, up! Sit in the chair. Touch nothing! I should fucking try again. Turn it on a sec. Just see if I Where did you get the tape? His mate Neil give it him. He found it amongst his own but he doesn't have a V A C No. See it's a soccer one. Alright, just a minute. Just a minute. Hold on now. And now it goes up again because there's a V A C Onyx standard, that's an Onyx standard machine. And there's a V A T, V A C twenty expanded which has more gadgets on it. That may be a expanded game. Which we haven't got that, the equipment for. If we but which programme have we got? But that . I might be able to put an ad in the paper for them games. You wanna see the games they've got for sale in London at Christmas and I haven't . Right. This looks quite good. Do you know what they're doing up at er Mm. see for ninety, you can borrow a sixteen bit Sega and get three games with it. Up at for five pound a night. Right. Oh I know that. And for, over a weekend it's a tenner. Shit! Th and it has the best graphics. Yeah, but Play the games. Right. Wait a wee second. Wait a minute. We'll see. Does he always come round in the morning then? No. Well some gave me five and . Just to the It's down the bottom Aye. They say it's only available for Well maybe he can't drink Jean. Well you don't know, to some people fifteen vodkas is nothing. It's gonna show error again. Well that's not very good, ours. Well no. But then you seem to have graphics on, graphics on it don't you? Yeah well I bet the Sega's the best graphics. Graphic is like The Sega do you get there, is that the one? That one over there. Again, error comes behind it. Did error come up and all and that? Yes. Oh, when the tape's showing, stopped? When the tape's stopped, that's right. It wasn't. It's tur , no, I think I know what it is! Don't stop machine, machine at all turn the tape over and just press play. No, you can't do that love. Sure, but with Neil's you can. Can some of the can some of the games let's say there's a, one side isn't playing, and try the other? Well, we haven't got the case, so try it now. Well who said And some of the games are very slow. I must say Jean, you didn't do a bad job for woman! I only wanted the job. You said that was the one you polished again for me. Shut the right door Willie. Easy! Oh it's easy. Mm. Please, we're gonna sit here all day. No . I didn't see Willie impressing the new girl. No, just to to tonight because I came. Cos we knew it was Claire. I remember my first computer. It got lost. sad. And you'll have to keep them, I mean can't spend out money for it's the truth though. Do we get our Easter eggs on Monday? I'm sure you won't. Have you got me one? Yes. I got us one each. ? Just an ordinary Easter egg. Er, you'll have to see what happened. There it is, the machine's stuck. Turn the tape over. Aye, just keep Well not till I, we'll wait and see what happens now. The tape is loading It's not gonna show anything until, until It's alright William! you've scanned it. Okay William. It's only a game. A clue. Oh we never had to do what you're saying in any other games so why the hell should I have to do it now? Cos some games are different. Och! You're balls! Aye. Alright. That's lovely! Gerry getting married You all insist that I know nothing but nobody else can do this. It's okay now son. It's okay. Won't you get me any on Monday? Don't know whether I'm gonna get you any this week. Yeah. And you didn't do last week. So you didn't do it anyway. Where are you getting the money Johnny for these jacuzzi? Must do Monday night. Mhm. Is Willie going back down there too? No! Where's Johnny's? No? So he has to get four fifty every Monday? Aye. So how come you had nine pound last week? Because we had the from that Johnny. He means, normal are you getting your twenty? That's right. Well why don't you use your head and go and do them yourself? The good thing so we'll overlap. He does. You never do windows on your own. I thought I'd get a Oh I know you would Johnny. So you never do them. Daddy. What about you and Micky or do you go ? No I don't. Do you not, do you not want to every week? No. Jeez! Don't you be telling us Sunday night, or Monday night during the week haven't done or not. No, they're See you tomorrow boys. Mm. I'll go down the road. See before yous go out. Go through your drawers and anything you don't need bring them down and throw them in the bin. I'll give mine to Steven. Far too big for Steven at the moment son. And he's got plenty. Throw them out. And, you see that wardrobe William! Aye teacher! William and Johnny! Yes, alright. You see the wardrobe in your room? Aye. Anything there too old, coats, anything that's left on the floor, old boots, shoes that you too small for you throw them in the bin. Now, when I look in the bin tomorrow I wanna see something to tell . It's mine. Now, what'll we do with you now? Swapping? I'm gonna get those what do you call, er Turned ,te , turned over. And then there's Right everything else. Er, what? Just do it like erm Straight up. Say, okay I'll do that. How do you know it doesn't start up again? Go onto there. Be ever so careful. Well you, and hit it with your . You've . Oh that's alright then, you're wanted upstairs. Nothing. Yeah. Just nothing happens to it. I'll be Get it on there mother. That Ten happens to be on Friday night. I'm going out. Not this Friday night, next Friday night. Suddenly it's You're not gonna be able to enjoy it, but I'll tell you that every week. But so it is. I'll be here. Johnny this'll be Sure! Let's have a look. Can I have a new chair? Yeah, like it's staying out here. Sh , got it on ? Sure! I can, I can get more money next week like that didn't it? Oh yeah? Do you know what yous two fucking remind me of Kerry and Steven. Just see Kerry and Steven the way them two go. They talk. I was hoping I could have a It's far too long now. I can't help it. Does that mean I'll never play that? No. I wish I hadn't started. It's replaced all the it should be. Oh no. It's right to the end. Okay. The things are still going. Raymond, that's this machine son. You're watching the machine. Right. We'll try this again. Now look, it does play. Press play er right! Whoop! Error. Turn the tape. Play. Play. I hope the won't be long tonight. Play. Ah! First of all the coming down. What? It's okay. What don't? I remember you saying. I don't know anything about it son. Something a about a precinct or something. Our Price. but I didn't say anything about precinct. Precinct thirteen. Mhm. Well then in thirty five years open the precinct thirteen now. That's all. Any good? Yeah it's alright. What are you doing William? Ha? I'm just warming up. Are you okay? You didn't bring your bag did you? And take it out. Sorry? Can you go and do your bag and some What? Right. Now that doesn't happen. Okay? So we'll leave this bit. Can I have a go? Right. Come on! Well pick them up! Give me two minutes Johnny, and we'll put it on for you at last! I've gotta rush upstairs! Stay here and see if this works Johnny. Oh right . There you are. That was quick. Sure hope so. Is it there? It wasn't Johnny. Whoops! Where's the error, there? Well let's ease her down. There you are love. Mm mm mm. I think I'm just gonna be a Jack Russell! It's not going very good. It's not? No. Well then it's veering right and then going just sitting. Right man. Shouldn't . So what's the use of that handle? Rum da dum dum dum Well that's why I did it in the morning Jean. Oh right. Okay. Goodnight son. Away and get me a couple of Rum da dum da da . Get them out there though Jean. Da er er No I think I might in the box. Just joking! Shut up your mouth Willie now! John! You know he bites back. Yeah. There's one of those Set it up there. Brandy! Move out the hall. Come on. It's got the thing It was up to eighty odd. That's eighty minutes. And check out one of them That goes up to eighty odd. Right, that'll do it love otherwise you'll be there all night darling. You know like, put it compare it with your money. Not a lot left. Listen son, now just, just open that door there! Wait. And jus just do it son. Go easy. And go and do that and get away from what's going on. Why do you have to stand two foot away from it? Dunno. Here William! Come here! Sit, and hold them. Settle down! I can't do it! Son, settle down.? No. Go to bed! Go on! Get out! Ah soon you'll be to your money. Go into bed and watch television up there. Right son? Right. I don't like to go off Jean. I wasn't doing nothing though. Get up to bed! Go up in our bedroom. I'll tell your daddy again. I bet Go right along. Go off to bed now ! Cheeky bastard! I don't like putting coal in here. Then at night just firm it please Jean. I'll be out all day. No messing! No messing ! Cos you know, I think we need our chimney cleaned up. I do that. It smells really clean. Cos every time you open that door there's bound to be that's stinking then! Get someone while I'm not here. Well and he wants popping round when there's nobody here and then I've left some for half an hour. What did you say? No. That's the end of the tape. There's nothing happening Raymond. The tape's still stopping and it keeps loading. This one does. Well, it's twenty five to twelve! It is indeed. Take a spoon up and get her to take her medicine. On your way,even get through that cup and plate in son? Where? Up, over near the sink. Right. I will try that tape in that morning. Night then. Night son, night. And see how you are. Feeling better tonight? Then you'll have to come ho home again It's up to himself. Just keep that on until that's all. I'd have said there's enough there wouldn't you? Mm. Yeah. Oh Jesus! Oh fuck! Why is it sitting there love? Oh that tape's going, so that's alright. And to do say one, two, three's done. Right? One, two, three is done. That's one two three and then, including number four, aye. Four have to use that one, okay? Do that in the morning. Where are they? That is ano another one to be done. It's the er That's Shaun, you can hear her talk. Oh that's right. Watch the dog behind you. Jean, did I ask you if you were going to John's tomorrow? I said no. That's good! Friday, I'm going. That's good! Are you going to an early on Friday? Patch stay there. William What? is your friend coming for you this morning? I've to call for him at half ten. What? I've to call for him at half ten. Half ten, right well I'm going soon. Okay then. It's twenty past, I've to get the bus. Jean Jean I have to go now it's half ten now. Mm right. I was up the park this morning with the dog. Were you? Mhm. I'll have to go now, honestly. I slept on the settee down there, I fell asleep. What? Is away to work? Yes he's away to work, yeah. Could you give me my bus fare Jean, please? And Willy's to call for his friend, look at that rip that up Willy. I was up the park this morning Willy at half five. Yeah? It was, tell a lie, sorry half six. Lovely it was. Where you going Willy? What? Where you going? Dunno. Ask the wee fella does he know anybody that's got one of those er VAC twenty computers. That must be an expanded one although, although the case would have told you that He seems a pleasant wee fella that. He is. You in the bathroom Jean? It's alright I haven't even got breakfast yet. You know the trip to the park this morning? I, I had the rest of that Yorkie Bar, the last of it, couple of squares. Won't go far on that. Okay son, behave yourself. I will. up the park Willy? ? Aye. Patch stop that scratching You've had your food. Jean do you want a bit of buttered soda? What? Do you want a bit of soda buttered? I don't know wh Is that about a job ? Comic Relief. Oh for fuck, tear it up. Comic Relief . Come in here a minute Jean. What love? Oh Jesus. When that goes cold , okay? Where are you Jean? Here. Come on give us a hand here. What? You what? It's difficult to tell sit there. I'll go and get a couple of mats. What's she sitting there for? Patiently waiting the day. nothing, she's had her food. Oh give her a wee drop later Jean cos she'd a good walk this morning you know and er now those Bramleys up there,okay? Right. So I have to She knows No no, I know that. you know? Aha. Anyway, right the park was lovely this morning. Was it nice? It was. Was there many in it? Out of the roa out of the road Patch, move over . There wouldn't have been many at that time in the morning. Well the point about it is, the greyhound men Aha. well their dog's off you see and they've gotta be careful Yes. that and you know dog okay? Yes. and er if they come off the leads you see Yes. I let Brownie out went up the back and there was Brownie in the Malone River then he saw me so no lead with me And did he g Mhm did he go along with you? Mhm. That was good then. The two dogs had great fun. What's she eating? What? Patch stop that. Put that down . There was ice on the seats in the park. cigarette please, was there? Mm. Ah Raymond must've took some. More than likely has. How does he feel this morning? Well I asked him was he alright and he said aye, and then I fell asleep, I've been sleeping from after eight twenty past eight. The er I took the binoculars up this morning. Did you? Aha. See anything? No, I looked for rabbits and squirrels, I could see nothing. Was there a mist or anything? No? No it was nice now but I had to sit like that with my arms up my sleeves. Bit bitter cold. cigarette I would say it wouldn't matter what time you went up the park there'd be somebody there. But it was lovely. It's the best time of the day to go up when there's nobody . I'd imagine there'd be people maybe down and outs maybe tramps sleep in that park with newspaper round them or something. There you are. You should've heard the different birds. Lovely. But I c er I only see a blackbird, that's all, two blackbirds three. But I could hear the rest of them. Mhm. That dog had the microphone in his mouth. God save us all. Mhm. To me she looks very thin even though what we're feeding her. Well it may be that type of a dog Jean. I mean look at, look at Brownie and look at, and John's is a fully bred thorough or er a pedigree labrador. She's more fat than a chip and he's feeding her tons of stuff. Right would you give me my bus money please and whatever you're giving. Well that'll do. I hate this babysitting job Jean. I know John. Och I hate it. What can I do? Well I said I would do it and I'll do it, I won't let them down, I'll never let them down but Ah bring us number seven out of the seven good God bring me number seven excuse me John are your brushes down here? What time is it love? Oh fuck shouldn't be here. and apparently the clothes are very cheap in it, and the shoes. Now if we could get down there I could ma what did I tell you? I could maybe get you a cheaper pair of trainers right, but good ones right? Och well I don't know about what na good ones anyway, and maybe get you a rugby jumper. That would be a surprise for your da, wouldn't it? Mm. Well would you like that? Mm. And even carry on and get her a wee jumper. What do you No What? Second hand or what? Bloody new. Second hand! ? Yeah. Well it all depends on where it's going. There's some goes to Armagh, Craigavon, Seymour Hill, Conway Estate, Portadown and the Faulkner base. runs that way, runs that way and they grabbed her. Eh? Cos the poor old dog's never out, that's why. Kelly and then she'll start running away Stephen. She will. She will, she's gonna be big Kelly, and she goes , she goes half way up and run down, back then I know that. I know that, and it's not right. Ah ! They could take you out. Saturday morning. Mhm Mhm. Mhm. I tell you what we'll do, what about this what about this if the messages are a bit late today, right, and we've gotta go to er the court to pay the money and the shop to get your shoes why not, if when the minute the messages come, go straight up to Taughmonagh right? I'll be down early in the morning, right, and me and you and Kelly Ann'll head out early in the morning and pay the court and get the new shoes and we'll have all morning to do it, eh? And then we can just saunter back here, how about that? Well what about that? What? If Stewarts are late in coming with the messages Yeah we'll go straight up to Taughmonagh go down the town early in the morning and I'll take you to the shop where they maybe get you a rugby jumper Mhm. Whatever yous want, it's up to yous, if yous want your shoes today I'll get them but I was thinking if we'd've went down the town today this has to be in. Oh sure we'll, alright, well we'll do it. What time is it to be in at? Er what day? Thursday Today? by Thursday the sixteenth. Oh that's today, right. Right. Right. Right. See you must have all these That's alright, well we'll do it this morning, are your socks clean now if you're gonna take off your shoes to get them, try them on? Do yous know what size of shoes yous take? Yes. You're losing weight Kelly Ann. You're looking well. See Stephen. Mhm. He says this morning I was putting it on. No you're losing weight. You're growing you see. That's why you've lost weight, no no no hold your stomach in you'll hurt yourself. I bet you when I grow up I'll be tall You probably will. Don't be all day up there. Good dogs now away and lie down over there, go and lie down lie down. Jesus Christ Can I go through the front door like that? Aye. Oh Look at that there's a woman goes to help her dead husband right? And now she's lying dead herself. look at him kicking her dirty bastards aren't they? Where are they? Oh away in a foreign er Yugoslavia or Serbia or somewhere. Frank Bruno Aye. Mm He'll kill Bruno next week. Eh? He'll kill Bruno. See the fight last night? If Frank Bruno wins Good dog Sara, aye you're a good dog, yes, you'll go out in a minute, yes. Yes you'll go out in a minute, to to Stephen, go to Stephen. Lie down. What? Well? Well well well. How many wells make a river? Your big head would make it bigger. I wish Stuart was here. Can you not write from around from ten, nine o'clock ? You could write on it any time but then you're just sitting in all day. I No er nine, it's ten no it's eleven to twelve and twelve to two and two to four isn't it, and then four to seven thirty isn't that what it is? No it goes on No it doesn't go on and on. Yes Is the table top er cleared in there? Not yet. come on, come on, come on Kelly Ann, here. Shut the door. What? Are we putting them away? Yeah oh we'll have to put them away. We'll all we'll all er do our bit. Right now, Cos we, we we know where to put them now. Right. Frozen stuff first. Frozen stuff goes in the freezer. Right. It would hardly go in the bathroom. Right, come on just lift them out, what's this? Burgers Burgers yes they're nice. Right. Chicken fillets, oh lovely, ooh right. Bacon Veg veg veg Veg What? Oh yes Veg. Ah and I tell you daddy you never keep, and your mum that you never keep What? Oh that's lovely, you can keep that in the fridge. Good. strawberry, right. What's this? Biscuit tin,Right milk Milk milk What have you got? Streaky bacon. Do you like streaky bacon? Right Erm hold on a sec, what does it say now? That's okay, there's a sauce Uncle Raymond What? Look. Aha. Right, who's gonna get a ? I'll have to bank the fire up. What's this here, rubbish?another bag. Butter in the fridge, excuse me is there another bag out there, box out there? No er That's the lot, right. Now them they have to go down sauce up here you've got no tinned stuff, no? No. Right, oh for God's sake. We did! Jesus, dog food goes there in the fridge You don't need to bank the fire up, I've Oh here's the dog food. Right put the dog food there. Right That's our rubbish bin . There's your rubbish then. What the hell do you want a rubbish bin for when you've got a bi a lovely big wheelie bin out there? And it'll save that corner, it'll make it look nice. There. too lazy to take it out. You come on. the wheelie bin. dog doing up here? They're just sitting there. Look, here, there you go, right? Everything's in, all the plugs off right, you get , you get the plates Well come on, we're wasting time if you want your shoes. Come on. Alright, that's off, it's alright, no it's . Here right. Right now Stephen hang your cups up and put the knives and forks away while I sort this out. There's nothing wrong with it for God's sake. And see if daddy wants what? I don't know how you Well, well that's okay then. You know yous wanna get what we used to have in our house? What? You get wee hooks and you hang them up and they stick there right, and just put your cups on it in a row and it gives you more room on the table. Have you got them? We used to have, years ago. Right now, lock the back door. Oh I need to go to the toilet, hold on. they're nice. No they're a bit you know long for her but they're the same size as she was wearing Jean and the other ones were too narrow for her feet. got one pair. Oh I thought you said One How does it work Stephen? I think you put, right pull this back Well it's All the best. And where do you put it? Put the see where the, that wee mark is? Aye. Put that in there Aye. and Oh Willy's away to swimming with Who is it? That wee lad, and then the one from called about two o'clock he says I says he's not in so and I says he's away to swim or something what time did he go at? I says he's only away about ten minutes. Where'd he get the money? He says that wee boy, I don't know. I'll when I see him. I Did you put in the there? Ah Oh you cock it first. No It goes into there? Yes. I'm just Is she feeding her?she's not giving her veg to the dog. Are you feeding the dog ? No. over to the right or left? There's my last one They're all No. Johnny sat there and cut the cake there, what did she do? Lift the cake with her teeth and then I got the bus down to Shore Road Did you? and then we walked from there round to the court from the Shore Road and then well I stood Not open? Mhm. It's a big store Jean but I mean er they had lovely prints in it that big, you know Aye that's the only shop we went to. We were in Castle Court first, it's a nice place if you wanna see a big military prints sixty nine sheets, Jesus. Patch! Patch! Is John coming up here then ? Mhm. What are you doing Patch? Eh? What are you doing? Are you not supposed to cut it first? No you do whatever you want Oh can you?? Ah Patch Patch leave it. I'm gonna tell John his was six pound and Kelly's was seven. That's thirteen and the five for me for and then the bus fare Where's Raymond away to? I just took his overalls in, he's doing some painting he says he's finishing the . And he says, he says , I says don't No. otherwise he'll get the sack, and I says John I says it's all . I said he knows he's in the wrong and he's being nice to the other two because they're not present . I says it's only for to keep your name right. And if he's working with you see , I says keep that short Hope he's not going for any drinking. I says and stay at home, don't go for a drink. I says if you want a drink you can get one and have tonight, but don't go over there looking for a drink. Where's Johnny? Johnny and Len's away playing golf. Johnny and who,? Mhm. Yes! And he said he would bring the mince in to do the , like give them the money for a pound of mince and a packet of Is there any bananas left? And he's What can I have to eat love? Look Jean, look at that one. Well few rounds of bread. Is there any in the fridge or are they all away? I don't know. Good. What are you doing Kelly Ann? I had the back one up in I had the back one that one. Oh. I had the back one first,the back one What are you doing Patch? There's a big crowd in the town. Is there? Didn't we see the, the, the man collecting the stuff out of the bin, God help him. God help you want to have seen the size of him and how young he was. Was he a tramp ? Does it work well your game? supposed to have Let me see. . I can't get . You're not meant to have it filled, it's a water game Well maybe they do. You don't have to have it all filled right up Er you take out alright just that and lea keep that in I've just got Pull that yellow thing at the top back towards you. Now it'll work. Ooh. Eh? I never . Don't want a cigarette love? Think you're supposed to fill it up to that mark Stephen says. Our Johnny said he'd be back at quarter past three. Ah you've them too far I haven't. Alright you haven't. Is that now better? It is so I'm just putting it in half now. Kelly Ann would never admit she's wrong you know. No, she Did you go to Stuart's this morning? Yeah. Indeed. What are you doing Patch? You're a bad dog. What are you doing? I'll Play with Kelly. Let's go and see if What er I'll make a cup of tea now eh? they're not working. Are they not? Why are they not working? Kelly . What ? I'm rolling up these things in case the wee dog gets them. Jesus! Yes there was a good crowd in the town. Was there? There was. A good crowd? Good crowd. Want your dinner Brownie? Eh? Well he needs Pardon? a good brush. Away put your things away . Come on Watch the wee dog doesn't get it. so it was Certainly, come on in. And what about you Declan? Now put her down and let her run about. Is that your out there Declan? Yeah. Patch Is Declan there It's alright he's only playing with dog look. Oh, oh. it's in the bag. Patch no you're not going down to Ah put her down Kelly and let her walk about. Well then close the door and keep her in the kitchen. the door. Excuse me. Look at this. Oh my God Ha ha. Patch! Alright away from the door anyway. No Patch. over Easter? Stephen going Easter Tuesday Easter Wednesday Johnny's working Wednesday. Oh, Easter Monday. Patch stop it! Can I have a look Stephen? He sounds like a he sounds like a Trouble is you ooh unlucky. Has Stephen ?but it's only for erm A check up. a check up. brush my teeth. Well if you need your teeth seeing to Kelly you'll have to go. Ooh. Well I don't want, I don't want my teeth out. You see if you eat an awful lot of sweet stuff that decays your teeth so it does, that rots your teeth a lot of chocolate and sweets. You're better eating erm I've got a big jar of jam There's three pound of sugar to every two pound of fruit to make jam. There's not, that's a wee and that's Johnny Aye Where's Willy? Eh? Willy W would you go and get me a large pack of No time. No time. Ah Aye, well . Give us one over give us one over one of your things. See that Mm. like this Who got this for you? Mm? Who bought this? Is it some sort of or something? You'll have to go and get a pack of chili sauce to get it on. Who ? First one come in Declan? Johnny? Not are we? I thought they were staying the night. No. A pack of chili sauce, somebody go and get to get it on, it takes about an hour. and it, Got that money for me? Please. I haven't got it, well you Easter's coming, I know You said you were gonna give me it and then you didn't. but Easter's coming. So don't I get my money? Oh no it doesn't shoot, let me shoot one, come on. I've only got one Oh your wee man from Lisburn called for you. Did he? Aye, three o'clock and I says you were away at Did you ask the wee boy where he got the computer game? Aye he says he's there's a , tape it over for me Oh. Do you know whether er did the wee boy say he'd call back? Just says och it's alright, I said Are you gonna go up there and get this sauce it takes hour. Come on Willy, up the shop please Aye. Yeah A packet of chili con carne sauce and a small onion. Any dosh? No I have no dosh. What is it? That there, look. and a small, small onion, not a big onion. Come here,come here. Do you wanna go up with him Stephen and get the chili sauce? And spaghetti and ginger Do you? Stephen'll go in and get the spaghetti Here. Chi erm a packet of spaghetti and a ginger. You never brought me a loaf either Johnny. You never asked for one. I did. Stephen come here a minute . How much is the spaghetti John? Here, Stephen and bring me my change. A pound loaf and a packet of er spaghetti What? he's gonna go in the one next door. Hurry up. . isn't it? love. Where's Stephen? Turn it up. So you had eight of them mm? Right, turn it down. Haven't taught you haven't taught you anything. Johnny what's been happening ? Ah? The hell with Home and Away. She's pregnant. She's not. No female cops. She's what? I should think so. If we got our tea early we could be at the park tonight. Do you go to school or have you left school? No I'm, I'm in W I'm in Willy's class Are you? well not in his class but Stephen said he might be going to the Murray. Do you have a blazer for school? Ah aye but No,forty quid like it's That's too much. er I, I wouldn't, I told everyone not to get one. He goes with a big girl called Cathy . Streaky bacon. Streaky bacon. He is? Aha. Go away and tell her. What age is she John? Who? Marlene? Aye I don't know. Marlene. Wish she was. Did you see George Foreman ? Who? George Foreman, the boxer. No I've never seen Where's the wee white book Jean I was writing down in? Alright er Stephen do you want to sit on a stool son T V? Johnny? Aye. It's a rotten con. . He's on a pound an hour. Pound an hour? Aha. so he is. Would you, would you do a pound an hour? I would aye. in the morning, half one to four o'clock, I was getting three pound an hour What are you wearing? Where'd you get that? Where'd you get it? What? Well er have you got your plates in? Turn that T V down a bit Stephen would you? Well here turn it down a bit. Did you enjoy yourself today? Yeah. Eh? Yeah. What do you think of your shoes? Good. Aha. Look at that there Stephen, look at how thin that man is, my Jesus. No I hate that, look at that and your da wants you to, you want your da to b buy you them wrestling stickers every day. Just think a bit the money your daddy spent on wrestling stickers alone for a week on you and Kelly Ann could keep three children alive for weeks. Wouldn't that be lovely to be able say well I saved the life of one child in the Sudan? Just one. Look at the skull. What? Oh Jesus so it is. Well we'll have to wait Kelly Ann, will we do? Yeah. Aye. We couldn't have walked home today Stephen sure we couldn't. What do you mean? Well I was thinking of walking home from the centre of the town but then I thought to hell with it. What? Very good. Patch come on here just in case you're sick in here. What? What time will your daddy be here at Stephen? Ah shite! Do you like your new trainers now? Are you sure? That's good Kelly Ann, glad to hear it. Aye she was sitting, she was sitting listening eh? Nosy parker. Did you eat your dinner Patch? Did you eat your dinner Patch eh? Good dog. Good dog you're a good dog. Is it still raining? Mhm. You alright Jean? Yeah. Right get the cigarettes out then and we'll have a snout. It's warm but Jean, you're saving coal. Where's your glass now? All the dishes It's alright Jean I'll fix it. Can we hear this Jean? Get down you're not allowed up on the cushions hairs. No cursing please. I never got a bite in their da's today. He never even offered me tea or nothing. When he left a note I heard him saying to Stephen and Kelly don't give your Uncle Raymond any biscuits. Don't open them and then he won't be cos her da says I've noticed when we don't take the wrappings off them that your Uncle Raymond won't eat them, but when they're laying loose It's a shame we haven't got he's like a vulture in the Kalahari. Well you don't deserve the biscuit in this house. what? Think I'll do them windows inside . Not now Jean, not now. What's he got? He's chewing the bar. What bar? The radiator. My God! You have it upside down do you not? I know but I think you cheat in that game. I don't. I don't cheat, I Well three hundred three hundred and three hundred and fifty. See when you do that Kelly so many that fall in. See that Kelly Ann you wouldn't mind would you please, turning it off, thank you love. Thanks love. I just done that and I got two hundred. Mm. I've got Yes but you're, you're supposed to use the plungers Jean. Yes! A hundred. It's to warm up for the weekend it said. I've two hundred and I'll show you Give me and I'll do that one. That's better, well at least you can see the numbers now Is that the co colleges, no? It's something about Derry somewhere. Kelly you're h you're holding it wrong, you hold it like that love. A hundred I've a hundred already. See A hundred and fifty. a hundred and fifty. A hundred and I've just a hundred now you're winning so far by fifty points. What one's that? Aunt Jean, I have two hundred and fifty Two hundred and fifty I've lost all my points, just have fifty now. Yes! I've a hundred and fifty now. I've three hundred Ah ah ah ah Three hundred. I've got two hundred and fifty Three hundred. Stephen she's going to and Brownie's going to snap her. That is That is. It is indeed. Oh dear God Four hundred. Five hundred. Six hundred and twenty. Four hundred and Four hundred and twenty. I've got five hundred. How many did you get? Five hundred. Very good. Play on, play on. Let's see if I can Are the dishes put away Jean? Mhm. Thank God. I'd've put you out if they hadn't've been. I did the dishes Five hundred and fifty Aunt Jean. Mm? Five hundred and fifty Oh two, four, five hundred four hundred and fifty. Mhm. It's a hundred and fifty two hundred, four hundred four hundred and fifty in the kitchen. One two three four six hundred seven hundred and fifty Stephen. seven hundred and fifty six hundred seven hundred and fifty I've got one two three four five I've seven men and a and one there's four up there, that's a hundred Ah the Wonderman's a hundred. That's your hundred and fifty so these are hundred and fifty one two three four five five hundred and one man oh no that's fifty and a hundred so that's five hundred you've six hundred and one man loose. Well then you've beaten me Steve that's only a hundred, no that's fifty and one two three four, that's two hundred three hundred, three hundred and fifty I hold. That's only fifty you see, I thought that was a hundred and fifty. And that's fifty, and that's the hundred and that's two hundred Who's winning? Stephen. two hundred I've a hundred, two hundred and two hundred new shoes. No take it ou take them away. Leave shoes! Go walk, bad girl, leave shoes. Will you leave shoes come on now, come on leave shoes, leave shoes, leave shoes now Give us them Kelly give us them over. Yes That's a hundred hundred and fifty, two hundred Who's winning? two hundred and fifty Me I think Aye well I mean you can get twenty five pounds er I may want me to go and do it now? Aye. Yes go on, Now Raymond, Raymond take Stephen down down to the shops. Aye go on with him Stephen Go on Stephen. or Kelly Ann. Give us my purse. Get my purse Stephen, go on down with your Uncle Raymond. Just Go on Stephen I'll be about two mi I'll be two seconds And what time ? Get Patch go up. Watch er watch she doesn't get that in there, quick she's cheating. Are you done Jean? Patch, Patch Patch Did you give her another feed tonight? Mhm. Kelly. Yes bleeding dog. I'll make a wee cup of tea Did you tell your, aye thank God, did you tell your daddy the er the big fella was looking into the bin today? sit there and he done, done and then, then he got that burger in the bin and he put it in his pocket. I saw him put it in his pocket, don't know where he got it fucking act the eejit fucking walk about places in the town where he, nobody would stop them, they'd stop me Ha I told you Fuck you're lucky you're Told you it's only a pup. pup! Not bollocks you're teaching it Oh aye Fuck me Sit, sit Patch sit down I've done nowt to it. Here here The thing's fucking starved. Out my way Bloody sure it's not. Patch get get away, get over there, get away Where's the paper? Where's the paper? Where's the paper? Stay there Lie down He's sat down now. Now Kelly why don't you eat that Sit there sit sit Kelly Ann, put that in there. Come on Patch, come on He's in the army He's in the army and he gets you know, polish and these shoes Oh aye. Turn that down a bit Kelly Ann Mm? Turn that down a bit One minute he doesn't want it and then the next minute he's How's your driving coming on? It's alright. Good. It's alright. Good. Er erm the instructor took Sandra out Mhm Well then you'll be alright That wee dog was up at the park this morning Come on, good dog. Well they have four cars they have this wee car for, to tow the caravan to the caravan sites on holiday and then he has his new car and the father has a Jaguar and then they've some other wee car just to get them about you know. Oh it's a company car, he's got a job and there's a company car with that. I know but it's a company car and he's got it all Yes. And er he's two years in the army and thinks he'll stay because there's no life here for anybody, so he's gonna stay on. Well he says to Raymond but it's not as if . I swear to God Aye Then he said to me he says I don't understand the politics over here. That boy round the corner. What did he say? What time I run now when I see him coming. I go up the stairs. and then Raymond comes to bed. He says what are you doing? He says buckets of water and polish, no spit and polish now, it's buckets of water and polish. Right I don't spit on your shoes your saliva And then they're saying to keep him going what would you be doing now if you were in camp? There's only one thing he Well I'd be er Oh I walk out of the room now. They do it for to keep him going and then they'll say he says you know I'm used to getting up at half four and going so many miles every morning for a big jog. He's harmless like, you know but but he's harmless, that's what I mean. He just, he, I think he just tries to impress people you know. Mm. It's all army like, constant. Well how long's he been in the army? Two years. And it's a life like, you know, He's going back to do skiing he's a holiday, and then he's gonna buy, he's got this wee car but the next thing when he goes back he's getting He's got a Montego like a big Montego. Well I mean he tells us So it's not here , somewhere in England. And he, when he goes over No well he and I He thought I was out. Don't know why I don't understand it at all. And like you know I gave mum thirty five pound because after all you know, I think she needs it he says with the price of food and all and the money he's on like and he comes And he sends her money home every week, when he's in the army and he's not here for to help her get the place sorted out and with the price of everything so dear. Stephen But er he, he can't wait to get back, well he says he's now ten days to ten days he told me. a year Jean. I'm alright like cos I hardly see him but yous have him all day . young Johnny, both you and Johnny needs I tell you I'd be in the bed all day . I'm not listening to him Doesn't he go out on Saturday night? have the money. Well yes, he says, you know, he says Kelly leave the dog alone had no money cos erm, you know,do have the money and all, he doesn't understand I, I don't even get paid until the end of the month Just tell him so I'm thinking of staying there for a while Sure I d I mean the day he took us , took us all out for dinner Is it a good place to work do you like it? Aye. Your daddy told you to knock it off now, if that goes over it's in the fire. I think I'll stay Kelly leave the dog alone I thought the part that, you know, she forgot it er well I know she didn't forget it, she just did it on purpose, but three days after my birthday it's her wee brother's first birthday and she had, she had the nerve to ring me up and invite me to her brother's first birthday party accept and go up there with a present and a card and all and she couldn't even have rang me up to say happy birthday So I haven't You're teasing that dog. He does, honest to God. It is him. No. Something you want Johnny? Do you want something ? Saturday night and stayed with his friends like and I, I and I didn't like it, I could I was lying in bed I thought I heard noises and all and I had all the windows Well were you in the house on your own all night? Aha. He stayed with his friend. I didn't know until eleven o'clock that night he rang up and said I'm not coming home. the girl said. I must admit I but they rang every day and every night. Johnny 's here Stephen? I've just had a few drinks. That's what Johnny says to me and then Alison rang me up this afternoon. How long will you be in? I think it's just the one day operation in the morning, then you're out in the afternoon. To think this time next year left school. I dunno, he's talking about and he's talking about engineering, I don't know what he's gonna do. Well he says he's gonna he says round about erm December, January he'll see if and he's gonna ask him if there'd be a chance of him getting in. Who? William. next year. That's what I'm saying, I says about December, January Oh yes. you'll see your man and see if there's any jobs for when he leaves to get in. Mhm. This is when There's good money There's no work for girls. But for fellas there's no work. You have, really have Do you ever watch that? That Harry Enfield? No. Aye it's good. It's very good isn't it? Yes. I haven't got them. Tired Stevie? The bloody dog is look, lying in your lap. it's all about Stevie, eh ? You bloody chump, I said you're going to see the and you said yes you're gonna ask your daddy. I said And then Jean said she's gonna ask your daddy to get a banger, and you're coming with us as I know this, I am not going with you. So there close your eyes at Were you making arrangements to see him later? No he turned round so he says What? but he showed me a thing of his. he was laughing at. Excuse me. Do you like Eastenders Stephen? Do you? Yeah. What? Can't cut it any more, it's cut to fuck. Well do you think, would you, would that trim your hair? No Oh Jesus John of course it would! Oh shit! Oh fuck you John. No, you know Aye things in your wee book. Yes. They would do it Ah but, no the oth no they'll only, they only cut, my other one is that, you need a you need a need a pair secateurs, you know secateurs what secateurs are? I don't, er er er tell, draw them. Secateurs have handles so they can pull apart to make the same size What do you call them, only no it's No what I meant Raymond only for roses. only they're you know like the the cutting edge of er er are sort of like that Like a ? Yes, kind of like blades and you snap them together and With a ? Eh? With ? Just about to say secateurs well er I need them to trim the, the a wee bush and the rose bushes at the Would they not trim your rose bush? What about the girl that's in New Orleans? The car stopped, down on the ground, shot her dead, shot at him and missed,twenty seven For nothing? For nothing. And apparently it's becoming very, you know, like a major major Yes, they're even giving tourists a leaflet now about the Thank you squire, that was very good of you to notice that. Right well Raymond it's, I've a wee thing in Can I listen to it? Aha. They're talking stereo It's not on What does it say? it do? What does it do? it's just a Why did he we well why was he wearing it? Is that right? Why what about your heart? doctor says I'll have a few words with him. He said he's in intensive care today. surely he'd go to hospital. No they wouldn't let him. hundred and thirty pound a day was it? Aye. What about John? He's still a bit down like. Is he?depressed. But Jesus I fucking don't know He's down because of er what it cost him. Do we have eggs? We have one Willy, one and take that and two sugars please. Six pound Five What for? Six pound ten Is that what it cost you to buy Willy? Six pound five? No, I swear to God Jean he had three, he had two pints and a glass, and I had three vodkas and it, Jean, don't be silly the only reason that wee bugger's Aye and the last one and that's the last. Jean you know me better than that. Oh aye. Where did you get this Raymond? The girl comes round here doing a survey, she came round one day and we were civil to her,and just answered questions, you know the way they stop you in the street. So she told us the last time she was round she was going on a course for that sort of thing and she said now would you like to try it said fair enough. Do you get money for it? You get twenty five pound worth of vouchers Do you? Marks and Spencers, right. We were to do it from Friday to Friday but I turned on the tapes on, when was it Last Thursday or no Thursday Friday Friday and Friday tapes went into the works you know just unravelled Aye so I went in to pull them out, then I rang her rang her wee fella, she came round on Friday night and collected them sorry she collected them and she couldn't get them back to, till the Tuesday, Tuesday. So we Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday Friday. ? Oh them, no they're, they're just leave them in son. They're only for very small things. And she says you'll still get your twenty five pound voucher. Very good. Which is very good of her. tapes the first one, then she couldn't get another one until Aye that's all it is, just talking Oh aye. No no that's the whole point. It's all about it's all about regional dia you know, dialects. Conversation and Nobody's gonna hear i nobody knows who it is, you don't even know them. That's all isn't it? I mean we just talk normal. And just put down here that's all no second names just Why was that on when I was in? No. No it wasn't on Jean I was telling you all my problems. No but, no for God's sake No you just yak, that's it, just yak normal. No you see if you hadn't have told me, and I was doing alright. Dawn there's nobody here gonna hear it No we taped er or forty five what did he say? Eighty minutes and there's twenty tapes. I've only got er I think that's number six. eight or nine and I had Aha but there's, it's not gonna, nobody's gonna know exactly Oh right. people are gonna listen to it you know? That's all. But the whole point about it is the whole point about it is not to put on the act. Jean make us a cup of tea love. Yeah The woman rang this morning from the holiday place, she said it's overdue It's overdue, the payment for the holiday. Did you not pay it? No, and I and I said to her well will a cheque do from the Halifax tomorrow . The fucking Halifax is closed tomorrow and Monday. Oh fuck. Oh I was thinking, I was thinking the other day Jean never has a fucking So I said that er twenty five quid, couple of jumpers fuck it. Well it can't be easy like, you know what I mean,but er Sure I know what it's like. the money. And she rang me this morning for, well er it was so comical cos Gemma had said to me yesterday you know what about the holiday and I said sure that doesn't have to be paid till the end of the month and erm you sure before we go into this? And rang me this morning. Well I could've cried. And then Gemma had that big job up for next week rang today to say Ah, oh sick sick. Well talk about you think you're but that's what Gemma said, Gemma said why don't we go out and have a spending spree Ah back on your feet again. Oh ah yes. Well if you hold on to your money you get loads and loads of work. Yeah. You know what I mean like Jean the whole point about it is I gave him I, I gave him a thousand pound worth of work and one fella, a young fella ah Raymond look at that, and he gives him twenty off the drink for a year and after the year Was he cos, yes he was getting you know what I mean? Yeah. drank That's right the work that I was giving him that's right. until all of a sudden it dried up. Well I, I said don't come promising me work Aha trouble is I'll ring you every night say there's a, there's a day's work Aye spend it while you've got it Is he going out with ? Aha. He wore, he, he wears all those baggy clothes. Ah he's lovely him. and his mummy's lovely too. And he's the only one, he's no brothers or sisters. He He's always Who, Peter? No, och well he is too Should have seen him yesterday er Jim was shouting at our and he looked at, I says it's alright only shout What did he say then? He laughed. He's a lovely wee fella No don't do that. Now come on sit down Dawn for Christ sake. Oh yes, soon. You alright Raymond? Aye. How are you now? Here Raymond. Ah thanks very much Dawn. Willy I don't smoke, Willy, Willy don't fucking con a conner, you smoke and don't be funny. Why, why don't you smoke as long as, wait a minute, wait a minute son, as long, as long as long as I don't catch you. Your da knows you smoke, but he just doesn't want to see you smoking already. I don't want to have to fucking bury you. Jean, dead tomorrow. I only smoke I only smoke one cigarette a day. Did you see that tonight though on the T V about the, the ma er the English couple in er New Orleans? Aye, she Fucking car pulls up, and they missed him. Did you see last night? No. Sleepwalking? Oh was it? Mm. God oh I wanted to watch that. You see a woman see a woman and your man didn't know where he was, and then she walked out one night and put her hand through the window and she ripped it from there to there and she said the doctors told her the only thing that stopped her the arm from coming off was the bone. Well did she not know she was doing this? put her dick out,bone in it. and he looked all round the room and that and then It's funny now, she said it as if she was you know under pressure, and she had to get up,I remember one night as if somebody was very quietly you know putting a blanket over me, that's honest. Oh fuck so you struggled, you couldn't speak, you know Aye honest, for weeks and weeks I took, I don't mean every night Ah tablets. Oh see before I got married, I dreamt, you know the way when you get married goes through your brain? Mm. Well before I got married I had this I had this fucking dream that we couldn't get our hairs done, all the girls couldn't their hairs done because nowhere was open. So we went away into this place called Short Strand I know it well. right Yeah. this is what you call this place but I Oh and this girl says if you go to the very top you'll get it done Right. it's an old, old house but she says at the top of the house Ah. but when we got up to the top of the house I needed to go to the toilet. She says to me if you sit in between them two old men and do it. And I said I'm not sitting between two men Right. she said they'll not know you're doing it, I swear Doing what? Going to the toilet. Oh! I wanted to go to the toilet Right. you know before I got my hair done. And I says oh God no I couldn't sit between, she says I swear they'll not know you're doing it. So I sit in between these two men and I Did what you had to do eh? But I felt it coming out and all that Right I'd done it. And the next thing I went in and this girl was doing my hair I don't know what she was doing but I can't remember the, the dream was he says to me Dawn do you want these curling tongs left on I said what curling tongs Cheerio Cheerio Kerry Cheerio Cheerio I said erm what curling tongs? Cheerio I says what curling tongs, says you left curling tongs on , I'd actually burnt my finger I must've sleepwalked and I, I felt the bed when I remembered all this and it was dry so I must have sleepwalked it all and went to the toilet and done my hair cos there was a big burn all down my finger . Honestly, and the tongs were still on, and that was at eight o'clock in the morning. Did you dream that dream just the once then? Aha. Do you? So it was fascinating then, the other night? The dream? All them sleepwalking and then, and then all of a sudden Did a man near kill himself? Aye Oh that was the woman was it? The woman, put her hand through the window Oh. then all of a sudden er you're, you're they went to a psychiatrist or a whatever, therapist Aha and he said well my mummy doesn't love me you must love your mummy. that wee boy sleepwalks,doesn't he? He doesn't sleepwalk far enough. Cheerio thanks very much. Can I watch this? No Probably No Oh aye. The spitting? Oh no don't do it with spit,saliva that you're spitting to the boots you have to have water buckets of water and polish to do it I and they were up the stairs doing the boots on the grey carpet in the back bedroom and they had newspaper down well whatever ways they must have lumps, speckles all in the carpet. Now it was and I turned round and I said , tried hot water and soap powder and, forget, something else, And erm I got down on my hands and knees I must've done it for an hour That's what I said what are you playing Will? Flute Oh are you? Who's doing the cymbals now? Whoever wants to Would you let me do them? Aye go ahead. With a wee skirt on. Aye. No skirt at all. No skirt at all, just your knickers hot ones. Aha where? In Lisburn? Willy you look tired, do you want to go to bed What ? Raymond What? Away to your bed son. I'm not going yet, I'm having, I'm sleeping here tonight. You're not sleeping there tonight, are you all fucking mad in this house? Yes. like mad da. Your what? Stomach. Take a glass of milk son and go to bed. Take your medicine. Oh we saw Eleanor tonight. Who's Eleanor? Raymond's Eleanor, big Eleanor, yes. She looks better too. Does she? No. She looks beautiful. She's really nice so she is. Is that the one you used to go about with? Oh t aye Oh. She's to give him a hand lead him across the road. Go on to bed. Why can't I stay up? Well is it the front of your jeans or you, you showing off? Mm? It's a flipping bell tent. showing off. Are you letting your hair grow Willy? Yeah It's nice that length isn't it? like that, only I would like him to get this short. Oh aye? Think Jackie used to do it. first, honest, he admitted it he put a hosepipe down the trousers. Our our teacher's no Er when remember, remember who? our teacher. He doesn't. Cos he's he's married and has to get sperm to get children. Who's this? A teacher in our school. he has an artificial one. Has he? Dick? Mhm. Cos he was, he takes for a pee anyway Did he tell you? Is, is it's artificial? Well what was it like ? Aye what colour was it Willy? It's Was there hairs on it? Was it? He's a fucking pervert, report him. He must get it, he must get it Report the bastard. It's not that big. Report the bastard. massive? Raymond away to bed son, you're not well. Go on I promise you if you miss anything I'll tell you tomorrow. Oh I'm er, it's nothing to do with it's no use going up to look at four walls, it makes it worse, again. Well go to fucking sleep. If you've gotta count the sheep count that, count that Eleanor jumping over the fucking be wardrobe. Poor Eleanor, her ears must be red. Do you never see her Raymond Raymond please. Raymond I think you'll end up with her No. Would you not? Well she's got somebody else, she lisps. That's what they say. Is he a big lad? I don't know I've never seen him, but He does! Does she still live round here? Over there. And works up ? Oh Carole came in er Saturday night I says you've no skirt on looking for John, I said Belt a couple of nights later up the stairs, it was wild. Who? Johnny. Johnny Och Johnny's Carole? Sorry no Johnny, no no John, aye. do you suppose they got that name because she was always Oh my Jesus, oh Willy, that is filthy! Oh for fuck's sake. slippers mummy. He's fucking What? Any slippers? No I have no slippers. Willy a Willy Willy away to bed, Raymond away to bed son, go on you get yourself sorted out for the morning, go on son. before my da hits the roof. I'm not gonna hit the roof but you're not well, it's not right. I don't know you're not well your father's getting Give us that Willy Just saying on Saturday. Oh it's just too bad Willy. Goodnight Goodnight then. Night. Are you alright son? Monday? Sixty five P. Thirty five then. Aye thirty five for a youngster. Give us a light please Jean. Ah so are they? They're all going up on Monday. And like they try and tell you to use public transport because there's too many cars on the road. Mm. I sixty five on Monday. Where are you going Dawn? Going to your mam? Aye. Is that a hundred and thirty return then? Aye. Mhm. Think I'll get myself, if I in er invested about forty quid in a new pair of er trainers I'd fucking walk down Road in no time. Why don't you get a bike? It's two pound return from er our place to Belfast Is it? on the train. Dad why don't you get a bike? It's not bad like. Not if you consider, I mean it's, how far away it is from here. That's right. Daddy Si what son? Why don't you get a bike? Mm? Ah keep you healthy and fit. What's in there? Boots, the wrong size or Oh that's Johnny Johnny Johnny's are like big motorbike boots Mm Well all you hear talking about army, army, army How long is he home for? He's lonely. Ah Yeah when he comes home he's lonely. And I've a feeling he's lonely over there and all Well not, not really now he's, he's a harmless wee fella like he is harmless. Has he got any bigger like cos he was small like? No well he's not, no I would say he has a bit, yeah. A wee bit, not much. Well built like, or still skinny? Oh he's not skinny, no I don't think he's skinny, no no. Would you not join the army Willy? I'm going to. Oh are you? Fuck he couldn't get in the The Queen's Guards with the big furry you know. You couldn't get in the Band of Hope. Ah for Christ sake. You just have to look respectful What band's Billy in? two drummers and four fluters. Was he ? No but we were supposed to have been playing in er where was it? Derry with two drummers and four fluters and a bass drummer and no it's the truth supposed to have er cut down the size of the and for triangles they're supposed to be er cut right to two spoons. Who told you that? Someone Does in Lisburn? Aye. ? No. Who won? Queen's Guards from Ballymena What about Liverpool the other night, they were lucky weren't they in the There was no glory in their win I know sure there wasn't. I felt sorry for Yeah. Portsmouth like Mhm. There was no glory in the No well I mean in in er Liverpool's win all fairness Well I said cos I said that's Liverpool won this Yeah and they're more experienced like. Yes they are. And your man Jimmy Hill said that afterwards, like that wasn't fair, it shouldn't be done on that. Not at all. But there was no but Portsmouth took, took them two matches, supposed to do it extra time like. Yes. There was no glory in it at all No. None whatsoever. In fact they should be ashamed of themselves That's right. letting Portsmouth, Portsmouth you know take them so far. Mhm. So I just hope Sunderland whip them now. Sunderland will beat them. They will, er they say a second division team will win it this year. It's not the first time. Well what's saying? Och don't be silly Jean he was said that at the beginning of the year, I don't know what way they predict this or whatever way they it goes you know Yeah and I had my bottle of wine and all drunk before the end I was jumping round the house. I said Wait till you hear what fucking happened to us on Sunday, bottle of wine and I drunk it you see, watching the match, and Jim done the dinner I said fuck it I'm having my dinner in here cos, didn't it go into extra time? Yes it did Aye and I said The match never went into extra time Yeah. It did. Didn't! Sure they won one nil in fourteen minutes they were up one nil and France couldn't score Aye in extra time was it not? You're probably thinking of the goals that were scored Saturday. Cos put, scored the goal That's right. at fourteen minutes. You're thinking of Sorry you're right no what it was we was watching goal of the week. No, the, the, the extension of them going up for the cup and all, that's what it was. Oh aye. So that's when I was eating my dinner, when they were going up for the cup and she fell asleep, well you know with the wine in you, here was my eyes all out for the count. Our William was standing in the rain from half five trying to get into our house Oh Jesus. I opened my eyes at fucking five to six and I could see him at the window Ken ran then across the road and he says Dawn your brother's been trying to get in for ages. and he was soaked, he actually had tried first then he went round the back, the back door was closed so he tried to take shelter under the oil tank Yes. God help him. he sat there Jesus. I tried the back again, he bladdered it and he bladdered the f front, but says he was just about to go when I opened one eye. So I says round the back or something. And I opened the door and let him in and he was telling me I've been here half an hour trying to get in. His dinner was l sitting under the grill, I lift it out, set it on the fucking table, and I says I'm away in here to waken Aye you know Yeah just to waken myself I woke up at ten past seven. Oh dear William William shouting up, he was left. God. He'd fucking had his dinner at six o'clock, I don't even know what I rang the club later, I tell you like, twenty past he'd arrived at the club and he was early,where'd you go? I left about ten to seven to go and get the seven o'clock bus Jesus Yous looked that comfortable I didn't wanna waken yous, oh Christ! And er when he went to get the seven o'clock bus it drove past him. Oh God! half seven bus, and there was me waking at ten past seven picked him up fucking dinner and here's me I'm away in here to waken up. See the heat and all it would just knock you out Yes. I think it was the wine that made me real tired. See when I go down to John's now I'm out like a light there. I know. you're waking up, yes, yes y alright,, out again. Then they tell their da. Do they? That you're asleep. And then you know the way your he head goes over and you Oh! Maybe reading the Daily Express, you get up and the fucking paper's all over the floor and you I know. you've kicked it when you oh God. Raymond goes But I don't sleep Ah here well I did tonight like cos I was up at half five Aha but normally I can't sleep here I al I always admired anybody that could sleep with a for yea it's only this last couple of years I can do it, no I mean I'll doze. Aye. Oh I But now I slept this morning on the settee. Er see well I've just gotta lie down in the afternoon for ten minutes and I'm alright. I used to do that when I was working and I had to leave at half four, used to do our kids , see when that clock gets to nine waken me I'm fucking cold out our Ashley said mummy it's after nine Ah and I used to say aye five minutes, five minutes I know, isn't it awful and then there's me, tell me when it gets to eleven and like I had to go and get a shower and put the dinner all out and all before I left at half four. Then I used to go round the fucking I'd say why didn't you waken me be Oh I used to say a half an hour and then when they ran to waken me I'd say give me five more minutes and then another five minutes and I actually ended up with forty five minutes That's right. and then you got up and then you were all That's right. getting ready cos, you know Mhm. But you see now come in for dinner after my dinner Aye but it knocks me all off then, I don't feel, I feel tired but I'm not tired when I go Yes. to bed. One night, there was one night here about er half nine I was really tired but, with them being out I wasn't, you know, I like to go to bed when they come in and I was so tired when they come in when I got up I was overtired and I couldn't go off to sleep. And I remember saying one time to our doctor about being tired and the same thing happened, waiting on them coming in and then going to bed and I couldn't get over Aye and she says well, it was Doctor but Jean she says you've been so tired you should've went of bed when you felt tired because with sitting Mhm you've been overtired and you haven't been able to get to sleep very well. I says well I never knew you could be overtired she says oh yes you can. Oh yes if something's on your mind you can't sleep at all. That's right. Well I fucking done th see last Thursday I done our front garden and our back garden, I don't know what fucking else I didn't do, and then I was storming out and the fucking dishes Willy I said I've fucking done the ga and like I normally, soon as our dinner's finished I don't even take a cigarette, I wash all the dishes and dry them, wash the cooker the table and then put a cup of coffee on Aye and a cup of coffee and a cigarette, and I always do that but this day I was so tired after the doing the garden, both gardens like and fucking weeding them all and doing everything else and brushing out the back and doing I said to him for fuck's sake do them dishes for me for a change William would you I said, so I got er got myself in the bath said I'm away to bingo, so William's gone out what happened?eight, I had eight he had one you may get yourself I said ah fuck no wonder I have no fucking luck, so on the settee and said I'm not going anywhere, I sat for ten minutes then I said ah fuck you why should I sit here so I lifted the car keys and walked out again then, fucking zooming out of and there was John coming up like that Oh what's happening?fucking dishes aren't even they were actually sitting on the table Yeah the way I'd left them. Nothing was touched in the kitchen. I mean the deep fat fryer, the lid was off and the pots are sitting Yeah on the thing and I said well he'll have to be fucking stretched if they come to that door and none of them dishes and the best of it was the front door wouldn't open Oh and I says then we'll have to come in the back and all them dishes standing there and, and that's one thing John hates, if any of his ones come up Och aye yeah Well fuck when I come back up he near had the fucking front door broke trying to get it open so that they'd come in the front and I see the kitchen door's closed and I just walked in and I said well John the dishes or nothing's done if you wanna go and have a look because he wouldn't do them. I just fucking told them straight, I said we had an argument and I never done it Well you didn't go to bingo then? No When you saw them, you come back yeah Well I er I came back because I thought to myself You had to come back. well like you know? Well that's true. So now I just don't give a shit, I do the dishes and Well now you see the week that William's down the John's, in John's and they'll tell you all erm once the tea's over the dishes, I do the dishes right away Sure I do though. and have the kitchen done Aha but when Raymond's here, Raymond'll fill ? aha ? No thanks love. Raymond'll fill the sink Cup of coffee your mum's gonna make for Dawn. and for and Jim does that. Jim No don't, no, not normally Jean I don't. and in the head I says they could be washed, and dried and put away. But then Raymond's gotten now No I don't normally do that. that he'll wash the dishes And then leave them on the rack. I've seen them sitting down to their dinner no no and leave them on the rack and I see them down to their dinner and I have the pots done before I take a bite Aye Oh aye. But Raymond's way of doing the dishes I hate dishes sitting done, oh fuck I And I hate dishes sitting Raymond I really do Because your kitchen's dirty when Forget it, forget it Well I have, I don't know how many, Jim does not like doing dishes, I don't like doing dishes Oh I don't mind, I don't mind. but Jim doesn't and there's many the night I have fought with him and I haven't done the dinner dishes I haven't done the supper dishes I'm leaving them now for you, I'm not doing them and I'll leave every fucking plate in this house till you do them because I'm sick of it. But do you, you know the best way to do it? Now say for instance er I do the pots Aye because there's no room in the wee Rack, aye rack for fucking plates, so I put them away and the best way to do it is if sit at the table , you wash and I'll dry or I'll dr you er dry and I'll wash, well what Jim wouldn't. Jim sticks them all in that rack Half, half the time Raymond Aha Yeah well I don't, I wash and put them on the rack But all then get the dryer, dry them, do the tops and then it's all done. Yes, yes but if you do that you're, you're, you're tea towel's soaking and at the end of the night nothing's getting dried. You can dry no gla a gla what does a glass look like if it's had a di dry with a damp cloth? I do all my glasses first Fuck all Raymond. Oh well it, right enough, yeah. I just do all my glasses first, and leave them on the draining board Do a cup of coffee now Jean for God's because by the time you've got all the dishes done, the glasses have all drained off and then Aha I dry them first and put them away I do that and then put Aha the plates and cups That's right that's right. But then I fucking I hate dishes. And I hate anything sitting on the table top. Aye. If I had, if I had room I'd have nothing, toaster and that I hate it all That's right. But yet I happened to say to Carole one night, she says no I love to see what I bloody own well I suppose it's you've got microwave and a wee oven or whatever Well my fucking, my deep fat fryer's sitting out we got an electric one we used to have the one that was on the cooker Aha. Electric one's far safer isn't it? Oh aye that one that was on the cooker. Mhm. And see when we got the hob I wouldn't have one about now. remember when we switched Yes the hob? Jim says we'll get an electric one because you don't want a new thing sitting in there and erm it sits in the corner cos I have no room in my units for it. Oh we've plenty of room there for that you know. But then the I've got minute it's cold I put it in Aye see I've no room. put the lid on it and put it in. But they're far safer Dawn. Aye. But sure here's me and all, right we'll get a new set of pots for this hob and we'll not destroy them Aye. I fucking let milk boil over the other night and I can't get it off. Well we got the hob clean Oh right right, it's no good, let me tell you, it's fucking useless. Jim says that some man he was doing a job for Use Jif. No apparently it takes the whole top of it Och I use Jif. I'll tell you what I do you know like it goes black? Aye . You see a paint scraper? Mm. I scrape it. Do you really? Oh aye. Scrape it, then I get the Jif on my finger, you know round the cloth round the finger Mhm. do that. Tea? Please. Do you want But er I'll tell you the most dangerous thing a tin of peas, if you put it into your pot there's sugar in it, if you look at that, the ingredients Aha on a tin of Batchelor, there's sugar in them Mm right? Now one day, you can't leave it on the hob, one day we were sitting here and I don't normally, if I put anything on I sit in there rea you've seen me go in on a Sunday Aye reading the paper and all while I'm watching whatever's on Aye but we let it run over and the sugar the hob and it, there's, there's a chunk out of it You're joking. it's actually bubbled the glass, there's a big groove in it, you can see it in the back ring, I'm telling you. And if we'd So even a bit of custard would if we, if we'd've left it long enough Aha it would right through the element. But I use a paint scraper. Now, I mean if you run your finger over it, right? Aha And you can feel where, where the rough edge is Aha and you just very easy with Jif that some man tell him is it a spray or a lotion or something? Some type, some type of liquid. I would say well use Mr Muscle on it oven cleaner, but you have to Dawn how much sugar in your coffee? Two. Two please. wh where you put it. I've used a paint scraper. See the milk pot, I made the, Jim likes milky coffee Right. he said to me do me milky coffee Yeah. made with all milk you see, and I put this on the other day, it was Monday, and I put it on for a cup of coffee, well Jim was out the front with Tom cos Tom fixed the front door Right and I went out to tell him and he started talking to me for something and when I came back in the fucking milk! Oh we And there with the heat on still it all just burnt to hell That's right that's right. But it's still, Raymond I can't get it off. Well I, I've, but er, no but er the only reason you haven't got it off, if you use Jif, I've used Jif And I put that hob cleaner and all on it like. Well I don't know what it does, but the only reason you can't get it off is you're not working it, it's hard work to get it off Dawn. Oh. Well I'll show you the, the what do you call it, the back, what the sugar did, and I'm putting it down to sugar. Aye and don't forget to show her what the fat done, up the thing beside the thing. Daddy come here . What son? What is it? I'm sorry love, I'll do it you know that Two thousand I'll do it before you're up in the morning lean over What? is that speed two thousand three hundred and twenty two? Let me see son. performance, maximum speed Get me a light Jim. two thousand metres an hour he talks every night? I done the di She kno everybody knows you do it love. done the dishes and all and had the house kept and all clean for you Here you are Raymond,your drink. Raymond. Oh thanks Dawn. before I'm coming down this morning. get my matches. I don't need, I said to Jim get us my matches, I said give us yours, mine's upstairs says you don't need a light sure Jean, I'll have a light daddy? and come back again. Yeah Alright? Alright. Say come back again and she shouldn't be long. Alright then. now. Alright then. Right. Swear to God start from er the middle of that alleyway to the shops Mhm. he'd still they're well trained Who are? in the army. That's why you should join, why he's getting the girls like cos you're going Ah fuck don't say that. gorgeous like. But all the women you'd get. You do,do. ? Mhm. I think you'd be lovely in the army, cos you've the build and all for it. Go ahead love. He's lovely,about ten years older. Aye well Grow your wee moustache. I'm going to. Well you would suit one. The last time, Dawn if I grew a beard the ginger comes through it, I grew a moustache, it was ginger Jim's is ginger. Yes. Jim's is ginger. brown hair. It's the grey hairs or Oh Jesus fucking in the name of, Willy get a shovel shovel Willy over here. Go on, get out Here son. Here Willy er t turn your head Dawn, sorry Oh fuck. Yeah. Here, here, here never mind him, he's alright, he's himself. I'm gonna be sick. Come here Willy. Urgh urgh urgh urgh ooh ooh fuck me that was a Come here here Willy Oh fuck here Willy no Willy quick I don't want my spaghetti here. Is that what he had, spaghetti? Oh fucking, suffering, fucking Jesus Christ the dirty, Jean get the mop urgh urgh Here Dawn take this up to the children. Ooh Fuck I Jean get the hot water, oh fuck! Willy. come on. Get the mop and bucket Urgh Oh fuck. And yet a stranger being sick I could clean up . Oh I couldn't. Oh I , no, I could, it wouldn't annoy me, but you see a dog fucking spaghetti. here, go on, here. You're gonna walk in it. Watch behind the door Raymond, you're gonna walk on it, get the mop and bucket. Jean away and get the basin love. We've done our bit. Oh for fuck! Oh I'm getting fucking out of here, oh my God It's spaghetti I know. No it's not Raymond, it's fucking ringworm Oh shit don't go fucking and saying ooh Is it all lifted? Raymond it's not all lifted. Well Why fucking sick Raymond. I used to have a good strong stomach but see now Sick Well I told him, I told him not to feed but they're fucking Did you not hear out in the street? Now I told yous not to feed but no yous a fucking big shit, yous know it all. Come on and lift it . Lift that, there's no point in me mopping that till that's lifted. Aye Willy that'll do. Willy alright. and go to bed. Go and get the er er the shovel Where was Willy ? In the fucking sink. Oh fuck. in the bin. Dawn's not coming back just yet Any fucking wonder I know that air freshener Ooh fuck. Where's Willy ma? I'm drinking Down the sink. That was mine How about drinking that coffee son? Would you believe that? I mean see I fed the dog Dawn, I get a and er I fell, well, he got fed about five o'clock tonight you know. But you're overfeeding him I told mum that Raymond I don't overfeed the dog son I would have him like a fucking Biafran. Was he sick in the hall? Oh aye just down the corner, it's just there. There. Yeah. You're giving him anything that we eat, you can't do that with dogs Oh Christ. Did you hear that? Oh! I've fucking Well don't be and he thought there was somebody in, masks on them, and guns in their hands. He'd have been fucking if there had've been. Look at your man in East Belfast Aye and everybody was cheering him. bastard bastard beat everybody up. I do. Or else somebody, somebody's is feeding him outside. No Jean. Generally if you're at home for the bins and all and I fucking Ah but there's no bins now I mean with the wheelie bins they're the g best thing ever, stops rats, dog everything. That's right. Now that was pure spaghetti Jean. Come on now, come on there's ladies present, come on. I never even looked at it. I had to shovel it up. I'll never look at spaghetti as long as I live. Oh Jean! Did you hear him spew Dawn, did you hear him? Oh fuck ooh did you hear out in the street as well as? Mhm. Ah no, ah no, aye probably did. Have a look Willy, do you see it? Aye. Is there a ? No just a wee tiny bit You must have got them all spread No I don't know where the first one is. Willy? Aha , oh fuck. Mm? Check the side of your car. Mhm. Come on Willy. I washed them trainers our Johnny given me and I cleaned them for him to try and save and then them black shoes for school to save his boots for the Mhm. cos Dawn at school are you? Just running about, what are you doing all day? I am gonna join the army. Are you? Paras. What age are you now Willy? Fourteen Side of your mouth is all white there Willy. No it's just white. You can see it from here, on your chin. Hope you weren't glue sniffing. Aye I was. It was a spot that kept on He did. He's not like you Jean is he? Who? Willy. Well my Aunt Jenny was saying What? He's like Jean. Do you think so? Ah. God help you Willy He's dead swarthy too, so are you. I'm not swarthy,swarthy. Och you are, Jean, isn't you? Aha. Like a tawny skin. Well everybody says that Jonathan's a picture of my ma Oh fuck he's drinking out of that cup look look he's a devil, he's a Oh no, oh oh fuck this house I'm not coming back Willy in the, in the thing there. the cup was in the Fucking shame an Easter egg. For fuck's sake. Give us my cup over. Give me my cup over. Yeah he actually had a I remember the fella I used to go with, his grandma Cissy she, she used to fucking get the dog a cup, it was his cup like, to drink his tea. She used to make him a cup of tea and used to drink it herself. Oh no I don't like that. Well she had this cup for him, there was no handle on it and she knew it was the dog's so and one night we were all whole lot of us, about eight of us somebody says get cups down, they were filled, no full of drink like and I get this fella this cup with no handles oh no that's the dog's cup Fuck. Oh fuck, I sat there The, the interviewer the other day said that she was somebody stopped her in Sandy Row, at the bottom of Sandy Row, Mhm and or she went to the door with tins all over the sitting room. different sizes. she says the hum, and then she was telling us when she brought the tape back the other day one of her interviews was telling her she was interviewing this man s er out of, out of the blue take off all your clothes please. Oh she says I couldn't possibly, my husband would be annoyed, he said no, take them off Oh fuck! the woman That was like that was like your man big Albert when they were out and this fucking fella says to him do us a favour mate and he says aye, no problem I'll do it if I can he says well would you go out sta put your take your trousers down, show us your arse Oh so Albert said well too fucking cold for that out there and anyway we're too busy he had me How much, how much would you get a week in the paratroopers? Willy I have no idea son. Well it takes you, I would, you have to have be in the army I have no idea. and then go for a paratroopers' You, you apply for, yes That's what I mean. course thing, it was on the T V, did you not see it? Oh it was Fucking hard work Know what I hated about the fella failed the test Och the man shouting across the square at him. You know they made a of him Aye I know least he fucking tried I know shot the fucking bastards. It's fucking hard course Oh fuck it is. Course there's no room for mistakes like, I mean they That's what Jim says, they're hard, they're hard bastards like. Yeah. They really are. and I'd like to go as an army chef or an army mechanic Would you now? or just join the Royal Engineers. or the the helicopters Well Willy you'll not get it without er working hard at school, that's where it all starts. It starts in school. That's right it does. See years ago you used to Yous do your week's training, why don't you go to the army cadet for a week? Well he was in it but he won't go back. Years ago you used to have the boys' service you see? Aye. Because, now Lyndsey joined it and he, he said like when he was eighteen he knew it all, and he says you were watching men of twenty who'd just joined at training Ah and he says they looked he says but I never forgot what I looked like, or what I when he started, but you can't join the boys' service now. He had to come out with diabetes and all, he's a pension. That fella I used to go with, he w joined the Royal Engineers Ah had to write down have you ever been in borstal or Aye. well he was in and he never wrote anything down and he got a fucking queen's thingie after a year put him out Oh aye? after they found out all about him Aha and that he had told lies, what is it, you break er You commit perjury or something do you? Oh fuck Anyway you haven't played fair with them. Aye. Sure Micky his er, I think it's his uncle Aha or his father, was inside and he got and he got his MP on the job Aye. Good. Mhm and he was held up because of it and they got Martin on the job and he wrote to hi er to the War Secretary, whatever you call it, you know Secretary of State Mm cos your man was put, he was he was put er for a year You see they find out at the queen's pleasure or something Now I listen to there, I don't listen as often now unless there's something big on, and you hear them, you know,check on, whatever it is, your vehicle check and I have seen them as little as five seconds coming back and saying who owns that car Ah. it's a blue Toyota registered to Mr Jim Aha. at blah blah blah whatever it is, that's how quick they are. That's right. So if they can do that, they can look up anything. Aha. Cos do you wanna know why I'd like to go for a mechanic, do you know why? No son. Cos see, see your man Gary down there, Aye Gary, see when he wants something done to his car, he came to me, that's where I was tonight Well that's good. Well you could go as a mechanic like, you can go as different things, whatever Cos he'd got an exhaust and want me to put do you know where How much did you get for it? he he says he might give me Fuck Willy Oh Willy er Willy you'll get nowhere like that. Cos he would maybe, you see you've gotta say now, would that fella take anything from me for er you know helping me if he's decent and he won't then you help him. But don't let them make a pig of you. Cos like that and then there was the, like a like a barrel thing Mhm in the middle? He wanted me to put that bit on, you know there are the two bolts Mhm that come behind the and the mud flaps? The way you put that in the middle and the carburettor's up the top the back end of the exhaust? Aye. He wanted me to fix it and put the glue stuff on because it was Oh he was sniffing sniffing Oh aye. Is that Gary ? put it on. No he lives Aye but you won't be able to smoke if you're in the army, Willy. You'll not jump over too many er high walls Willy with smoking No that's right. I'm telling you. We do assaults course at school. Ah about from here past Sandra's house Mm. and it's all big climbing things, you have to them. Willy let the dog out to do what it wants to do. Let him out in the garden Willy. Give us that book over on your way past. I know He's lovely isn't he? Who? Willy. He really is beautiful Do you think so? Aye he's lovely. That's why I would love him to really wake up and get a good job or You can't t er I says to him Dawn you can't talk to him, I'm telling you, I've tried. I says to him cos you're gorgeous. Och he is lovely his hair and all and his face and Mhm He can't. Like you take, you take your sons why wasn't I born first I know. Johnny did you see ? Ah. And where is he? Och Willy er Johnny don't be so ill mannered. Jo come in in five minutes Ah? They're nice. Aye they are. Willy is this our book? Aye. Oh fuck. Sure do you see what's Twenty four pound ninety five. Do you see what it says on the sides? Read the bottom. Not to be taken away. Oh for, did you steal it Willy? That has to be taken back. No they don't know there's about seven thousand million books in our library. remember I says they were in a sale in school Aye. I know son I know that. Oh He's as bad, he's pulling the fucking sticker off. No the headmaster tomorrow he comes down here and has a good look round There is about eleven thousand books in our library. At the rate you're going, by the time you leave, they'll be lucky if there's I got John to join the library and I take and I've got his er I've got his ticket. Why don't you bring me down some day and somebody steal it You know what I hate about it? There's some of the books are filthy that people leave back, you've no idea. What? Did they?twenty five to twelve I make it twelve. Maybe Jim'll have the dishes done. The what? Maybe Jim'll have the dishes done when you're back. They're showing the Grand Prix the final Oh they're showing Naked Gun on the television. Ah on Easter Monday night I haven't seen that. I have. The er Grand Prix 's on, that's right. Is it? Aye Grand Prix only started at quarter past eleven. I went to take Wendy's laundry round Tuesday night I forget why I was, I don't know, well I didn't call but I just drove on and got myself a says Jim you're early tonight, quarter past ten. Thought you were I wouldn't have seen you for another hour. Well on, was it Friday night Och he knows you're in safe hands like when you come round here. Ah was it Friday night after the fucking dog's puking round me and the fucking Oh fuck dog's licking out of the cups. Oh Jesus. this library in your face That's going back. it was stolen I said it's going back, I didn't say it was stolen. It is. and me and your ma's sitting here, well ooh My stomach's turning yet. Dawn's missing the football because of the final of the Grand Prix. Did you watch the football on Sunday? She says I don't know about And left her poor st her brother standing in the hall. Och man don't talk nonsense! Aye. They didn't deserve to win. Nonsense. Our William was left standing out in the street for half an hour soaking. When? I drunk a bottle of wine and fell asleep after the match. Where was ? He was sleeping. Oh. And here's me with one eye and here's I could fucking see our William, here's me round the back then me I'm away in here to waken up, fuck ten past seven We came up from York Street today, you know we walked Aha Court? And er whatever way I brought them we ended up in Street and you know the King George the Sixth Hall? Yes. The big hall there? Well our company decided to send us for a fucking first aid course and this, it's er most embarrassing on this particular night we'd stopped in er in the Chapel Hill in Lisburn Aha. I was drinking Monk and Monk was a heavy beer so fuck I gets out of the car and fucking oh fuck , but anyway said to me look I'll go up, say my name, and I'll bring you home, I was living with my sister at the time and I sat on a wee low wall, I'm just the wall,fu fuck I , in the middle of the day,nobody , they were just drinking er Dawn this is way were, it's fucking maybe twenty five years ago, twenty six and er fuck he sat me on the wall he had to s I couldn't see he says to me er fucking I heard a voice, Raymond like this is the exam tonight you'll have to sit there. I says alright Dawn er Graham, I couldn't lift my fucking head. So I'm sitting and getting worse if I opened my eyes it went like that, the whole fucking sky was going round. So I'm sitting all I can hear, I'll never forget it ah God help him fucking somebody from ah Go God help him next thing will we get an ambulance ? Say no I'm alright and I must've lifted my head, all I could hear was this old scraggy voice like a witch,ah serve the fucking bastard right,the fucking honest to fuck, so I must've sat for another half an hour and I knew I had to go that way to get home. I ended up on the front fucking wheels of a pushbike I swear to God, in Willington Place I'll, pitch black, never forget it. And all I remember was saying oh! There between my legs, the front wheels, and I ended up holding the handlebars and staring into this wee boy's face a look of sheer fucking terror on his face, fucking, oh j I don't know how I got home. All I can hear to this, to this day remember is flashing lights and doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo go home you bastard! Doo I must've crossed every fucking road Well Peter I sa la one night last week oh it was the week before I was going up past and this fella was walking and he was fucking staggering and he was going on the road and Peter's came back and fucking him. Oh aye? Ah Sure her her sister was coming er down, er t Carole was coming down Donegal Avenue one night and said to John fuck some woman's gonna have a rough time she says ? ah she said she saw this fella hitting the wall and hitting the football halfway out in the road, it was fucking me. oh Christ! Ah but everybod er sorry, they did things for me Oh aye bastard. Do you not see her much Jean? if you ev if she ever says to you she hasn't seen you since whatever it was, you say Carole it works both ways, I haven't seen you either. Like I mean if I like five minutes we're all down to Aha that's right. but then her excuse would be but I mean he can't be on shift He's not on shift work every week. every week if you No. know what I mean. No that's right. Like she wasn't too busy when she brought the youngsters And home last Saturday, or whatever it was, to come round. She wasn't even with him, it was him brought them round himself. Who? John. See she'll always John's kids and Sandra's? No they're John's No, no no no once every . She buys them and takes them to and all but the point is she uses us to get to John, so it's like would you ask John. And I feel like saying Instead of going fucking asking herself. Yes exactly. Exactly. Mhm. You know th the statement a mother keeps a family together, which I think's true, and then when the mother goes the family are still keep in contact Well no, a mother, a mother might keep a family together in the sense that they all meet there on a Saturday Mhm but a mother can't make the family like each other any better That's right. you know? They can't. See your mum was te terrorized of Carole She wasn't? Aye she was afraid of Carole sure Yes. on a Saturday when she used to come. And that's wrong but if you, if you told Carole that she wouldn't believe you. But I know she was. And I'll tell you better than that aye sure she oh Jesus Christ our Carole's coming. I'll tell you better than that and I didn't know until her John told me. He says do you know that they get cooked ham sandwiches and you get toast? I says you're joking. Well who gets cooked ham sandwiches? When Carole and John went down, they were sat down, cooked ham sandwiches. When Jean and I went down the toaster was put on. We got toast. I didn't know it used to get the ham for Carole, that's right, Yes, mhm. Aha. And made them a f and they look for their fry every Saturday and I stopped doing it. Like when your mother got to that age, as John told me, you bring her in the food That's right. Ah she doesn't bring it in for you. That's right. Now I thought it was wrong, I even stopped them getting a fry. Well see when I used to get Fucking pan was rotten anyway. but used to say I hate them, I hate them coming you know? Mm. And I, but I used to get them a and pork chop , you know? Cos she was on her own Ah you know, enough to do her and a pork chop for couple of days. And then when I went up home, I'd have took them out and put them in the fridge and she says what are you doing and I says well that's a couple of day's meat for you and she says no no take that off home, take that off home, I've and I says no that'll do you. You shouldn't have done that, I says shut up, I says do you a couple of days. Ah. And she used to get them ham, that's right. Yeah. Mhm. their lemonade It was fucking You wouldn't ha you wouldn't have done it to a dog though. Yeah that was Debbie . Oh Debbie Debbie Fuck Jean remember the day we found her on the floor? After I was talking about I fucking wet myself laughing, oh it was nerves but Raymond I never st did I stop laughing? She couldn't stop. And God forgive me Jean don't panic Ah and I here's me, what the fuck are you do don't panic to help me up, just don't panic just get me on the settee I said Jean don't lift her there's something wrong with her leg. and then when I see her leg was swollen Aye Oh fuck! And then when they were taking her in the ambulance, the nerves, I was sitting fucking laughing And then she rolled ah ah ah ah and I'm fucking laughing, she's going ah ah ah ah oh fuck I says I And then they're gas and air, they put the gas and air er er the ambulance and all. See all the time she was in pain I laughed even but it was for nerves like. And then Dawn, she rung work to say she wouldn't be in because the wee woman she That's right. and then she was girning on the phone because getting taken into hospital, oh it was terrible that day. And then I had to run down to Mrs 's when Dawn stayed with mummy while the ambulance come to tell Mrs and Mrs says don't worry Jean, I'll sign you in the day just go ahead and put your mum in the ambulance. Oh God Oh fuck. But I can and said pull that fucking door closed and the knob came off in her fucking hand, she spun round What about the day she collapsed in the the hairdressers and only we're going for a drink. and she come in and she sat down and and the the hairdresser's and here she was, I'll be alright, I'll be alright. And I says let us see, and she's and I says now keep back and I rung Don and explained and the doctor said Jean just ring for an ambulance. And I rung for an ambulance and it came and we took her up and sat with her, and they kept her in for four days. that woman. And there was the apple tart laying on the fucking floor And her cup of tea, God help her, sitting never even got How did she fall? She c went, closing the door and she had her hand, her apple tart in one hand, she held the door with her other hand, she fuck her handle had come off and she swung round and round she said I kept spinning round and round Oh God! And then she had to have the operation to get her hip fixed That's right. Dear God, fuck that was ah I was fucking laughing . Aye just, if the two of yous get me up on the settee I'll be alright, me and her ah ah ah ah! Then I just started to laugh the woman next door and I fucking wet myself laughing Ooh and she was he and I said are you alright now? And then when I went to talk to the sister, me, you know I fuck when I rang she was she had to have an operation on her knee, the whole kneecap was broke. Fuck I wet myself, she slid off the grass onto the pavement . Oh God, so funny. Oh it's when you think back like. Oh my ma was petrified every Saturday. Cos our John used to come in and she goes you know said you'll have to excuse me, once they go away I can relax. And then as soon as they went away she got her out and sat and had a . That's right. Ah that was a ridiculous thing, when your family comes you shouldn't be like that. I know. No. Like if your family makes you like that I think it's time not to bother. And they should come down cleaning and helping you like and making you something to eat like. Well he looked forward to his fry. Well Who did? Johnny I heard him saying there one day er where's, what no fry today mother? Cos he only got sandwiches. used to go on a Sunday say come on we'll go and I used to my dinner, oh fucking hell my dinner this is desperate, them wee were gorgeous too. way she done her steak and all,an and her chops they was beautiful. And then I'd go home and have my dinner too, no wonder I got fat. And God help her and walked along the and the beach and all well God help her she couldn't er, at the end, she couldn't eat at all and we were forcing her to eat and she wasn't eating at all. And then the, the last days You're skipping three Johnny What? the last sixteen days she just lived on her drip. That's right. Oh she took a notion that Sunday night Mm? on the Sunday night when I wasn't there, and I was down making them's tea for er a drop of ice cream and Raymond fed her the ice cream. How was the going? She died on the Monday. sit here and watch it. By the time you get home it'll be over. I know. What, when's the last time ? Twenty five years ago? that's the league cup innit? It's the league cup. won the league cup four years running. the league cup. is the league cup. It's not! Sure this is what they're playing for, the league cup. It's the league cup. Liverpool away Liverpool away You don't know what you're fucking No, the league cup. Giggs, he's crap. Giggs is crap as well. Giggs is brilliant. Och John Barnes walked round him. Young player of the year Ian player of the year, er Gary I mean. And Mark Hughes' getting a me er a rew a rew a reward Sure sure don't you remember the time Liverpool were playing United? Crap. Er John Barnes walked round four of your players. See when I see that used to come round Sandy Row, he was the and he used to sit and the way he used to talk . And he says to me do you wanna breast feed Who said this? Oh , I used to fucking wait on him. He was one time. It's a relapse. Well it's something else as well Something or something but he was back in intensive care today. Did you watch it? Aye I did, it was crap. It's your man Shearer. He's a good player too Shearer isn't he? Who's that playing Dawn? United. the goalkeeper. Oh he's hurt, the goalkeeper. Oh he hit him. Look at that sponge, what is that, what er goes on that? Water. Cold water? Water. Cold water. There's no D in it Johnny, it's water. I'm only telling you. Get me a glass of water while you're in the kitchen. Let the water run . If you go in the army you'll be coming home What? You what? Alright mate Alright matey Mm. Willy is going in the army aren't you Willy? You didn't watch the match ? , who was it they were playing? Ah and your man fucking with Giggs? That's right I think that was terrible. Giggs was too Well he was he was, I'm glad he was sent off because that was terrible. He had it in for Giggs, I knew he had. He's a fucking I think he's a good player, Hughes is crap again. He's very bad at corners, him. Raymond What? Good. Who wins this match? United. How many? About nine nil. he's, he's one of these people ta give it out but he can't take it. A bit like you Johnny. Aha. It's just that he, he likes all these people. Oh I like that one, oh that was a cracker. So need to win? None. They won, that's all we need to know. points Rush. Oh I hate that skinny devil Dean Saunders' a better striker I like er no I Jones? I like your man the, the goalkeeper what do you call him? , oh he's lovely. He's a good player. Griggs is a good player. Look he's crap, he can't Willy away and and bring back the matches please. Who? again Raymond, Aye. and next week too Aye. same thing. Aye well he's gone What? Oh Jesus I hate go Wednesday Thursday and Friday Why don't yous take the train to Bangor? When? You and Raymond, couple of nights out in Bangor For fuck's sake Dawn you'd come back to a fucking siege. Fucking windows broke. go away? We went to the christening and my heart was in my mouth it was on edge the whole time. I'm sure everybody'd be Come on Willy. train trip down to Bangor When? Easter Tuesday. Sure Bangor'd be crowded Easter Tuesday, you'd not get in the Can't even get into a pub. with all the, the and Ah that's the last thing you wanna go on, You're right. Ah well don't yous two in front of witnesses, don't you Go ahead Giggs, go go go go. corner, go ahead. I used to get taxis down from to Bangor or Carrickfergus. That's right. Is he a driver? Aye. Aye, now Jean I don't know what's happened to him, but he was away to Australia like, and er he came back and Janine's boy was in, her new one Acky's never met him you see, Gareth not going to get married. Well he's or something, I don't know well he's got Oh. and he's saying he'll marry her and then of course Acky he and he says you know, er A Acky you know, and I used to be a male nurse you know, and John says aye, John Mm he says come on you out in the hall with me Oh we'll take your trousers down and John, everybody was wetting themselves. the we the wee fella went out into the hallway and Oh Jesus. and he fucking asked him to take his trousers down. And the fucking door and the next thing the wee fella come in and says yous are fucking bastards. Sure are. Honestly. Big Dessie, he come into work one day, he was and he come into I'll see you in a minute Raymond, flew into the kitchen, and he runs past with a bo bottle of water and I goes out and he's scrubbing the front passage you see. Said what's wrong, he says Raymond I'm taking him down the Grosvenor Road and there's fucking old Paddy , we used to work with him, standing outside the f you know opposite The Royal? I said och give him a lift, this is halfway to Road. I said Paddy what were you doing up there, he was at The Royal, are you bad then Paddy? Ah not too bad he says the doctor says I've got a festered back passage Dessie says and there he is scrubbing the fuck imagine telling everybody like you'd got a festered back I know passage. Who's eating an orange? Willy. No he used to, I know who, Dawn, he used to take me sometimes and a couple of times he took me up to the and he used to say to me and what would you take for starters so I always said well I always like erm prawn cocktail Oh aye for starters. Oh he says I make my own prawn cocktail he says at home and lettuce and Aye. Aye, oh I laughed. You know like, you would know he's a bit fruity like the way he talks He was in the police you know, and he was a male nurse. Was he? Used to go and have a fucking , wee boys and all Sure Ji he came in looking for Jim one morning and Jim wasn't there, says he's in bed so listen I said do you wanna go up and waken him like fuck Jim says when Acky woke me I said what you mean he give you a kiss and he woke you up. fucking done Tom was round giving me er all er Who the fuck's Tom ? and he was saying to me er, he says Jean I says I live and learn and er he says, you know when he says, he talks through his nose, he says you know if they had've left Sandy Row the way it was and just put bathrooms in and he says and the way it is Mhm. That's what Mrs said they're not coming from the Falls Road Sandy Row. Fucking right too. Sandy Row's isn't it? Times change Jean. There's parts of Sandy Row with the gardens and all you the houses, and there's other parts that's really Willy take them cups in Aha. But then Hector was to blame too because Hector went they were coming round and we had to get out first, he promised us as the first houses would go up we would get back again And you never? We never. Not at all. We did not. The time I was looking for a house,he says it wasn't enough to get into Sandy Row. You said get into it, do you not mean get back into it? He did say,the man told us. Sure they were pleading for protestants to go up there Mhm. I says you're the man told u give us the key for Black's Row and told us that Mhm er when the houses were rebuilt we could go back again What did he say? and he says oh I know but it's nothing to do with me now, it's all housing Go ahead Hughes! Well we, come on come on now,bladder it in. Oh lovely. Oh But he made sure that what he wanted Oh aye. Park. I never liked him. I never liked his wife or the daughters, they always thought they were something. What? The school for fighting and violence. Isn't it like? worry if you had his money. money. number one What's number one? Right Said Fred. and they had I'm Too Sexy for My Hat. And was he number one? Aha. Dippety-doo-dah? Doo, is that what he's saying? Did you see This is Your Life last night? No, who was it? Your man, The Lady in Red. Chris De Burgh? Ah. Was it good? Did you see Coronation Street? When? Last night? Oh no don't tell me I never seen it. I would've seen it last week though. I hate him Jean. We were sitting in Sandy Row yesterday night was sitting in the car, do you know who he was the spit of? Who? The man out of Better Days. Oh aye, Reg. Oh fuck I wet myself laughing. And he's bigger. I know. I hate Derek but I like your man out of Better Days. Oh I, I laugh at Derek the way Ah he knows he it all. that squeaky voice he's Aha oh They're well matched. What about Neighbours? Mm. Good this week isn't it? What about Home and Away But that er what do you call it? Eastenders now is all doom and gloom. Aye. Now you need er I used to love Eastenders but now Dot Cotton and Nick. Ah sure they bring them all back again. Oh fuck, that was a cracker. I thought it was class A one for Liverpool. Who's that playing? Man United. What did you say Johnny? What did you say about Definitely one nil Johnny was it? Don't know Did they win? Aye they was two. Aye! Sure there's more Liverpool fans than there is United. Sure Liverpool's still have, still have more than look how many was killed in the two, two tragedies. In the European Cup and then with er Hillsborough. Hillsborough. tragedies. They are a tragedy. Hillsborough I'd love to see a whole stand c cave in. God forgive you Willy, that's terrible. Oh it's a terrible thing to say Willy. Terrible. No way. played away This premier league's gonna do harm to the other I know. lesser, the smaller divisions That's right. Sure they're Chelsea's on the news last week, they Ah that's right. It's terrible. You're right ref. Yes, I agree. I'd love to see a match where he sent the whole fucking lot off. Who? I'd love to watch a match where he sent the whole lot off. was fighting something fighting but you know last week, no it wasn't, who was it? Was it Arsenal? No Who was it? Q P R, well who was fighting Dawn? Fuck your big man with Macdonald? MacDonald. I don't know, was it a tackle or something? Oh God The whole team fighting? Ah Cos that is quick Dawn. Yeah. Well Roger Owens is quicker than him. Mm That he is. Roger Owens is one of the is the quickest in the first division so Not as fast as Well he's not bad Alan Sharp, Alan Sharp probably the best. he's one of the fastest first division. We've always to be better like,that's why they're sitting fourth or fifth in the league. Sure they're no worse than this year. Oh yeah there's always next year. But if I come one day and Liverpool are from the league, I Here goes Smith. Ooh! Oh I hate that! Fuck it somebody done that in Liverpool was it stuck up his nose or something? Ooh Do you know what they see years ago what their fellas used to on the footpath bending over and doing that Ah! Urgh. You don't see that now. No. still does it. Sure look at the night, Saturday night he came round to our door,big black stain said you're alright man, I was , you're alright man I had a half bottle of cider er er I wouldn't let him through the fucking door. Oh fuck. all the time He used to stand, I swear to God Aye. I used to that, I used to see the old fellas doing Jean, Jean Jean oh fuck I says Jean don't go And then when we went for a drink he used to say are you not buying me a drink? I says no He's a fucking old he was. I'll never forget them cupboards wardrobe. There was four different colours of doors on them. He pu What'd he do, paint them? No I, I wanted built them wardrobes and I said now Monty whatever you fucking need I'll get I had to one night the fucking er babysitter was half gassed it's honest, we opened the fucking, she's he'd punctured the fucking upstairs gas pipe but, and then a fucking second time, the er the gasman laughed at me, says mister I don't know what's happening but this is the second time. I got a bill fifteen pound a time. So he says to me, see we had three wardrobes in our bedroom Aha you couldn't get through them Mm. it was like a maze, and he said to me Raymond you leave it to me, I'll build these cheap as possible, but he made a good, the principle was Yes. but he used, instead of him buying the wood or getting me to give him the money for the wood, he cannibalized the fucking wardrobes and used the sides and the Oh fuck see there was three different colours of wood. You could actually inside them. You could, er they were, they were a great job Aye. you know? And then he come in to us then and he says to me I'm bleeding and I had to get a plaster for him and he Aye he'd no money. Oh And Mary ,he says cos he says every time I come in here Sure Gazzie said that about her, went up to her house, I heard her. Slippers on and a fucking old nightdress no housecoat. Oh aye, yes yes yes. Sure she had our Raymond fucking Aye he did. she had our er Raymond doing her hair for her. what does she think she is? Oh. Yeah I left him one day, we went round to the pub I said don't open that door there's a match on fucking Ivy gets a phone call all the windows were put fucking in Oh. They were gonna stab one fella and he fucking and then broke our windows. Course I mean the m fella would have been stabbed to fucking death if he hadn't. Was it our kid ? Aye down our way. He wasn't there. only a wee boy. You shouldn't of opened the door Johnny, what did you do. He wasn't there, you Raymond he wasn't there. It was Raymond and he was only a wee boy. It was Mary says er open the door and let him in because they'll kill him and then down from the bedroom Dawn here's this couple of wee , not much I'm afraid. Thanks very much, I'll send the photographs That's nice will you? Aye. See you later Dawn. Aye right, cheerio. Cheerio Dawn. Willy put the sauce in and here, here Willy here's a cup on the hearth, two cups. It's just to keep it tidy for me and your mummy coming down in the morning son. the dog sleeping, he's like. I know. Really need to er get a shovel there's some of that er stuff out there. Is there? Is there much? A wee pile of it. Shouldn't have give him that tin, that's why dogs are that's why you're instructed to feed a dog once a day or whatever it is. Yeah. Don't put people off. What's he eating? What are you eating? Johnny think she wants him to do some Well I done the dishes , I'm not doing them. I'll do them love sure you know that. Johnny do you want the T V off ? Looked so fed up tonight love. Who? Is something wrong in the house? Dawn. She and er she was telling me about David's mama, she said David's mama says, you know, told her to come over at night you know Ah to keep her company in the house and she went over the other night she said because when the kids are in bed, she's on her own Yeah. and when she went over she says er school being off, she heard er David saying something about well nobody's keeping me from my ironing. She heard David saying? No she heard her saying that and she says to me I was so mad Aye hurt. Hurt. And she says now you know and Raymond knows that I bring David Yeah. and Here give us one of these. No away you go. Starving. Take a Kit-Kat. Nobody thought to ask, offer us any supper tonight like. Hey come here, come here! Come here! Come here son. What do you mean supper? Hey Johnny come here! Johnny! I took, wait till I tell you come here, I I was gonna make Kelly and me sandwiches but I hadn't enough for Dee and his girl and er I wasn't gonna make tea for, for Now Johnny we won't make any difference you know that now and Ah it's a wee bit like saying that about us. Fuck he's trembling. Wouldn't you after throwing up though love? And what? And erm She takes him everywhere, yeah. she says like er she says you know Jean she says well I just sat there and she says I'm away and I went over she says because it was her Ah she thought like she says so I just, you know, ignored her and she says then the next day she was out doing her windows and she shouted over to Dawn ah hello Dawn and Da Dawn just says hiya. Where are they mummy ? You know where the cauliflower is? Pull that tray out . What ? Pull that tray out big ones? And she says ah David's er she says later on in the day she says to him are you playing? And David says te shouts er tell her er about er when Dawn was doing her and she says I opened the window she says I says what was that you were gonna say to er Ashley? Your mummy what? And er she says er the next thing was that if er, she says she heard him saying if you let me play in your back garden, this that he's playing with, we'll give you a sweet. And she says er oh, she says, she and she says and she says Ashley come on you don't need sweet their sweets and you're not gonna be blackmailed. There's sweets here, there's plenty of sweets for you, come over here and play. And she sent the er kids over to her house with an Easter egg each, you know? Mhm. And there were a tap at the door and the hand come out ? just took the Easter eggs and slammed the door in her face. And she says Jean you know well you can see er she says you know the day before Ros was in Lisburn and she says you know the way when you're standing and from the back you can feel somebody that their eyes are penetrating through you and she said she happened to turn round and there she's sitting in, in this girl's car and just er looked at her like that. And she says I just turned away too. Nothing. And er she says Jean I swear to God she says if she comes over near my door, I've told Jim she says, I, I'm ready for her I'll beat her round that square and she said I'm not like that but she says that's just the way she says, and she hurt my kids when I sent them Easter eggs over, doing that she says, that really galled me, she says cos they were hurting my kids rather than me. Oh aye. And er she says like when I think of me keeping her child overnight and all before it's in hospital and running down to hospital three or four times when he was in the hospital, and taking him sweets and all, and she says she's treating me like shit . dad. Right. Right. And er she says not only that she says er David is er saying to er Michelle come on and play with me and er come on in and play with me and, when Michelle will go in, he pushes Ashley out of the road and says well you're not getting into my house. Did Johnny give you a kick there? N I don't Last night. No he said or she. Dee's calling for me at ten. Bring him in and give me a shout. We'll not be here Who won't ? Your daddy and me Time yous going at ? Nine. And she says Well give me a shout before yous go . Right. I'm bloody well she says . But she says I've had but she says and she says she was the one wanted me over to sit Aye. er and keep her company cos he was at work and the kids were in bed, and she says I went over and sat with her and had a cup of coffee and a smoke and I sat with her, you know, till she was ready for bed. Ah. But er she said no that's me finished. She says Aha. Mhm She said honest to God Jean she said I said I know how you feel. life's strange. That's what I said, well I says life can be a bitch I says. Aye. And, ah, oh aye, and she says they're out playing and the s and she says you know what kids are like Jean, and she says like I wouldn't try even to say to my kids not to go near them because you wouldn't tell them because they're only kids and she says they're like playing in the square and she says like I would David and down here you know when I was coming down That's right. she says but she come out and got her wee one in the car and not David and the wee, the other wee boy into the car and left Michelle or Ashley standing there and drove off. And then er when they came back he says she says you know and I just says er and when she got out of the car, Dawn was out in the gar in the garden walking, and she said she just got out of the car and she looked over at Dawn like that took the kids in and she said I just says here you are, she said, come on Ashley over here, you stay and play in your back and your side of the er street from now on . But it's no way to settle an argument by ignoring it you know it or letting your er letting your She says mind run riot. You, I mean, if she if she likes the girl, which she obviously does, why not just rap her door or wait till she sees her and say you know whatever you call it, did I do something on you, and why are you treating me like that but th well she says she can't understand this silent business or silent treatment er it only leads to worse trouble. She says she can't understand why she's getting the treatment she's getting from her. And the bus fares is going up Monday? Ah yeah, another five P, sixty five P. Fucking extortionate bastards. There's no justification for it. No. They're too expensive as it is. Well it just means people, if there's gonna be three people They blame it on the bombers. Sixty five P. The bus has been burned and the bus has been blew up and hijacked That's one ninety five for three people, plus for the extra couple of coppers you're gonna get for door to door delivery Yeah. and they'll not er, they'll not, people'll not be using the buses as often like. double decker when that stopped then they would Mhm. Aye it would stop the er the bus fares would go down. Christ they've done that for , the double decker Used to cos they was waiting in the come round to get Mm. and I said to John I'll make yous tea, Now Raymond come on to bed son. What's wrong Jean? Right we'll go to bed. Good dog Patch, good dog. Raymond Raymond What? Come on and get your breakfast. Hurry up. Oh no! Patch get out of there. Patch stop eating that. Lovely. Who's up? Good it's er twenty past eight. I've got diarrhoea again. Oh. Come on Patch. Patch. Do you want an egg? No. Right, Patch Get him down here Jean. Alright love. Ye gods. Are you getting ready Jean ? Are you getting ready? Jean get Raymond up. Jean , your egg's ready your toast. Jean do you want tea and toast? Right Raymond it's up to you, come on. Are you up Raymond ? What have you got Patch? What have you got? Here's your breakfast Raymond. What? use the last Whose is this cigarette? Oh Spilled my cup of tea over the tablecloth. That's only clean on yesterday too. Well wasn't it better than around my knees though? Eh? ? out of it or your place. chewed to ribbons. What ? I dunno, wee round one. Mm. And the curtain was away way back, that one at the T V. She's gonna have to go again Patch come here! Come here. Lie down. That's it. Lie down! Good dog. There's another Tarzan picture. What? Ah well as long as he,Pa Patch! Come here. Take him over here Raymond, oh no he's sitting beside you, you're alright. Brownie's not as bad this morning Jean. He's not as All the programmes are changed this morning,the youngsters being off school and so instead of the news it's all these youngster's programmes. That means Steven and Kelly will sit in there all day. Poor Johnny never got much sleep last night. Aye he was sick twice Raymond. Him had a dose of the screaming heebies. Wouldn't bung us an ashtray on your way past, is it up there? Or is it on the hearth? Big brown one. Well what's happening this morning Jean, where we going? Are you gonna get your hair done or are you gonna stay here? Well can you not go down in the morning when you're a bit better? Or come down later on today. Eh? I'm not trying to stop you going down Jean do you know that now, don't you? Ah but you're not the You know I'm not going down by bloody choice no not by choice. It's just that Yes well you can tell me what they're getting and I'll take them down. Those pictures are awful on T V Jean what have you found Jean? Jean, what? Come away from your mouth, take it away from your mouth, you feel what? Sick Sick, Jesus You know that fella that Maurice er that plays Tarzan Johnny Weismuller, whatever you call him, I met his what do I say, a girl who, who was a cousin to him, aha, she was a yank of course Will you remember about the letter? Give us a fag I have none no, no, no, leave us a couple just on the table and yourself Who were gonna buy you a packet ? There's four, you get a packet in there er if you see er this morning, say I've got listen son, you see Thomas about those er alarm alarm, I hope they're not running about in the barn all day going bad, we'll all get fucking poisoned, did you leave us a couple? Great, you got your bus money? You okay now son? Yeah See you later Alright watch yourself Yeah Cheerio now Mum what your mum'll be here she says Oh Jean, we'll go down to where's the fifty P shop or something and buy some of those do, er cornflakes' plates or something, say they're gonna fill those other ones up that the man give us a mere seven, eight ones, only leaves us four ordinary, you see I know for a fact that Sally say he was caught Pardon? you watching it? Ah, I don't trust him How do you feel love? Awful Well I'll go and get ready then, I'm not going yet right, I'll get on my shirt and I'll take the bed down and tidy up, right, and rake that fire out, do you hear the dogs snoring? All I heard our Johnny saying was, why, why hasn't Jean and me have a That's a point Oh God John said he's going to get you one of those T-shirts, I get one anyway if you wanna try sit there all morning after yesterday, you think our Jeanie went to the court? No Cos I was, I said to the youngsters yesterday, I says I'll tell you what we'll do, we'll just take your trainers tomorrow, or we'll go down the town and put your competition paintings in and then we'll come round and get the bus up home, and then I thought ah the hell with it we'll go on down to York Street Now we are down this far now we are down that far, so I did everything so I've nothing to do for them this morning, just sit there Is that Wayne? I don't think so love there's the first of the money lender so only a big one, once only a hundred, if I had dough, that much money Jean right, over here was she also surprised? Got my oh I told you I saw Charlene What? saw Charlene, did, wait until I get a shirt on and my socks Jean, oh watch the wee dog doesn't get out Jean, watch yourself Where's the dog? It's alright I get it come in You're early Ah come in You ready for this? Yes Well up, well I've only got about er, we're only on ninth one just That's great, that's great, sure, sure you only got it and now there all full up on Wednesday Aha , I put it er that's marvellous I put it everywhere, see Jean didn't I? I take it now and give you your Hello, and welcome to this review of the week from Independent Television News in London. I'm Brenda Rowe and these were the headlines. A second American hostage is released in Lebanon. Lithuania mourns its martyr for independence. And the space shuttle places the Hubble telescope in orbit. First, an American hostage, Frank Reed was freed in Beirut after more than three years in the hands of pro-Iranian kidnappers. His release came only eight days after another American hostage, Robert Polehill was set free. Washington sent a special team to West Germany to await Dr Reed's arrival at a military base there, he was handed over by his Shia Moslem captors to a Syrian army officer before being driven to Damascus to be met by American Officials. President George Bush thanked Iran and Syria for their roles in securing Dr Reed's release. Nick Gowing compiled his report on Monday. It was a re-run of events before the Polehill release eight days ago. The Syrian Foreign Minister emerged to predict a release within a few hours, underlining that such a delicate operation is being handled jointly both by Syria and Iran. Syria and Iran have been continuing their efforts to secure the release of other hostages. The release was first signalled by two notes and three photographs sent to a newspaper and newsagency in Beirut. The claim came from a previously unheard-of group, calling itself the Organization of the Islamic Dawn. They specifically denied they were the Arab Revolutionary Cells Group, originally believed to be holding Mr Reed. But the continuing confusion of the hostage situation, in Beirut and the Lebanon, was underlined by the claims of former hostage, David Jacobsen today, that Frank Reed had been held in a neighbouring cell and had tried to escape. I had knocked on the wall in code, one knock for a, two for b, and I knocked Dave Jacobsen, A U B, and the response came back, Frank Reed, I C. I was told by released French hostages that he did attempt to escape, that he was beaten very badly, and that basically his spirit at that time was, was, was broken; he didn't want to talk with the other hostages in the room and he pretty much had withdrawn. The Syrian President, Assad the release was aimed at reinforcing his determination to improve relations with the United States and the West in general. The same can be said for President Rafsanjani, Iran's moderate leader who remained determined to fend off the radicals and to end Iran's isolations. While Frank Reed's relations waited expectantly in both Damascus and the United States, there were however, ominous signs of the power struggle continuing in Tehran over the hostage issue. As Mr Reed's release seemed imminent, an unsigned statement on Tehran radio commenting on events since last week's release, said ‘the United States has failed to reciprocate the goodwill shown by Polehill's captors; in view of Washington's position, resolving the hostage crisis is much slower than previously expected’. A further sign of pressure from Islamic radicals came today from Hussein Mussawi, in the middle here, a senior Shiite leader closer to Hezbollah fundamentalists, he opposed the release of another American and questioned the loyalty of those doing it. One view is that Frank Reed's release, the second in a week, may be the last for some time. Twenty thousand people took to the streets of the Lithuanian capital, Vilnius, to mourn a man who became a martyr for the Republic's bid for independence from Moscow. The Lithuanian president, Vytautas Landsbergis, told the crowd that the dead man, Stanislovas Jamaitis was the first victim in the Republic's struggle for independence. Mr Jamaitis had set fire to himself in a Moscow square. Lithuania's deputy Prime Minister Romualdas Ozolas said the Republic was not prepared to suspend its declaration of independence, although it would negotiate on laws passed since, which have angered the Kremlin. Robert Moore, one of I T N's Moscow correspondents reported from Vilnius on Monday. The body of Stanislovas Jamaitis was flown in from Moscow, received by his family. No hint at the airport of the outpouring of emotion that was to come. At the cathedral square in central Vilnius, it was clear his suicide was being seen by fellow Lithuanians as the act of a martyr. His death has affected a nation which is already facing a crisis of identity, as Moscow refuses to recognize its independence. Among speakers, a new bitterness, some said the suicide was a cry of despair as the west turns its back on Lithuania. It's the only statement which Lithuania can make now. We are abandoned by the United States, by Great Britain, by Germany, by France, what else is left? The centre was brought to a halt as the procession made its way to the National Parliament. Few here had ever set eyes on the man they were mourning, but they saw in his act the ultimate sacrifice for their dream of independence. They responded in their thousands hearing President Landsbergis call Stanislovas Jamaitis ‘an idealist’. His memory providing Lithuanians with a renewed sense of purpose as they continued to build their nation. I T N obtained an exclusive interview with the K G B in which the Soviet Security Department admitted actually stepping up their activities since President Mikhail Gorbachev came to power. But in the new spate of glasnost, or openness, one of I T N's Moscow reporters, Bill Meely became the first European journalist to be shown inside the Lubyanka, the K G B's headquarters. K G B headquarters. For decades, a symbol of repression in the Soviet Union and espionage abroad. In its prison cells, dissidents have been murdered. From here, an army of agents spied on the west. Today, the K G B is showing a new face. We were invited inside. The openness that has swept through every layer of Soviet society, has finally reached its Secret Police. Today, it admitted to the crimes and executions plotted in these corridors and carried out by its men under Stalin. Convenient scapegoats perhaps, but the K G B was open about today's activities too; Major General Alexander Karbalnov of the K G B revealed for the first time that seven hundred thousand people have been executed for political crimes since the revolution and that three-and-a-half million have been repressed. Since Gorbachev came to power, thirty spies have been arrested in the Soviet Union and all but a few executed. Under Gorbachev, the K G B is busier. ‘The more the activities of foreign spies have increased’ he says, ‘the more our activities have increased, and over the past five years, we've uncovered more agents than in the previous fifteen’. As for internal dissent, ‘We keep files on criminals, but mass files on ordinary people simply don't exist. You can say what you like against the state now, its what you do that's important’. The K G B's key task is State Security, but it's now cracking down on smuggling too. Officers showed us two-and-a-half thousand Russian icons which they seized in two swoops on illegal exporters. The haul, valued at one-and-a-half million pounds is one of many such seizures; of church property, of drugs, of guns, the K G B is now cooperating with foreign intelligence agencies against Mafia and drugs barons inside the Soviet Union. You're watching a review of the week's news from I T N. The caretaker Prime Minister of Israel Yitzhak Shamir, was invited to form a new government following the failure of the Labour Party leader Shimon Peres. Mr Shamir said he would stick to his promise not to make concessions to the Palestinians over the occupied territories. Mr Peres had tried for six weeks to persuade just one legislator to join his labour-led coalition; in the end he failed, but said ‘it was worth the struggle for peace’. Vick Aiken compiled this report on Thursday. Shimon Peres' best chance of forming a government probably came and went when two members of an orthodox religious party caused an uproar in parliament while renegeing on a promise to join the Labour Party coalition. Since then, the fortunes of the party and Mr Peres as leader have gone downhill. The initiative has shifted to Yitzhak Shamir, and his right-wing Likud block. The caretaker Prime Minister will try to form a government this week. Mr Shamir has been hard at work consolidating his right-wing support and trying to win over independent conservatives; he has reiterated his determination to keep the P L O out of any peace talks and has steadfastly refused to consider any deal which would involve giving up territory for peace. Mr Shamir's building of new settlements in the occupied territories has also angered Israel's main ally, the United States. In the West Bank and Gaza, the uprising continues, people throughout the region were celebrating the end of the Moslem religious festival of Ramadan. The demonstrations soon turned into confrontations with Israeli police and army units, a number of youths were killed and hundreds of people injured. Mr Shamir now needs the support of small religious groups. The formation of a government can literally hang on the defection of one of these religious leaders to one party or the other. But the price of political loyalty is high. They want Sabbath laws strictly enforced, and a host of other minor legislation. That has started to alienate the secular sections of parliament as well as many voters. The right-wing Contra rebels in Nicaragua appeared reluctant to disarm even after the new American-backed President Violetta Chamorro was sworn in. They were angry over her announcement that a leading member of the outgoing left-wing Sandinista government would be retained as head of the army. The supporters of Senora Chamorro said the decision was vital to stop the country from sliding back into civil war. Derek Williamson compiled this report on Thursday. The United Nations reception centres for Contra rebels to return and lay down their weapons, opened for business in an atmosphere of hope rather than anticipation. The disarming process was due to begin from the moment of Senora Chamorro's inauguration and be completed by the tenth of June. But the commander of the estimated eight thousand rebels in Nicaragua _ Israel Galeano — now says his men will refuse to give up their weapons. The reason; President Chamorro's refusal to cite this man as head of the army, he's Umberto Ortega, brother of the out-going president, Daniel Ortega, and as inaugurations go, it was an inauspicious first day in government for Senora Chamorro. Some supporters of her National Opposition Coalition, known as U N O cheered dutifully, others booed her announcement that although she would take over as Minister of Defence, General Ortega was staying on. Earlier, Sandinista supporters threw water bombs as her motorcade arrived in the baseball stadium for the inaugural speech. Police tried to subdue the more unruly elements of the crowd. Outside, other Sandinistas denounced U S support for the new administration; Washington is refraining from public criticism of its first major decision. I'm not going to second guess her decision, we will work with her and we will work with her government. Privately, it's believed Washington put great pressure on President Chamorro to rid herself of remnants of the Sandinista administration. Clearly, her first attempts at national reconciliation have impressed no-one. China announced that it was ending martial law in the Tibetan capital Lhasa. It was imposed fourteen months ago, following nationalist protests in which about fifty people died. But Beijing pledged to continue fighting what it called ‘foreign forces’ plotting independence for the Himalayan region. Foreign residents in Lhasa said later that many of China's troops have been withdrawn and the security situation was more relaxed. Gaby Rado compiled this report at I T N on Monday. Violent anti-Chinese demonstrations in the Tibetan capital Lhasa, during which the people took control of the city for at least a day. But inevitably, the authorities regained control by force, it was a foretaste of what was to happen three months later in Tiananmen Square. Martial law was declared in Lhasa, enforced by a hundred thousand Chinese soldiers who made sure there was no repetition of the scenes on the anniversary last month. And now Beijing has announced that social order has returned. The exiled Tibetan leader, the Dalai Lama has had a high international profile since he was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize last year; resenting this, the Chinese authorities may be looking for propaganda points of their own for lifting marshal law. And on a more mundane level, they may well want the tourists back, before martial law, Lhasa was becoming a sought-after destination for western travellers and for their dollars. There is growing controversy in East Germany over the future of the underground bunker in which Hitler is believed to have committed suicide forty five years ago. The bunker is situated on the Eastern side of the Berlin Wall. Some Berliners want it preserved as a historic site, others fear that it could become the focus for neo-fascist demonstrators. Ian Glover-James sent this report from Berlin on Monday. Beneath the skyline of modern Berlin, half hidden in a grassy wasteland, all that's left of the bunker where Adolf Hitler committed suicide. It stands right by the wall in a rabbit-infested wilderness, the no man's land between East and West. Most of the bunker was dynamited to build new apartments, inside lie some thirty underground walls on two levels. Here Hitler spent his final weeks as the Third Reich collapsed. Overhead, Soviet troops swarmed into the Reichstag, but at the bunker, all that remained was Hitler's charred corpse. For years, the bunker lay buried, German officials on both sides of the wall simply didn't like talking about it; these ruins are now entombed beneath new apartment blocks in East Berlin. But one section remains, jutting above ground by the wall. Rocker Schmisch was among the last of Hitler's bunker staff to escape from the ruins, fifty years ago; an S S sergeant, he was a telephone operator and bodyguard in the bunker. Now the Berlin wall is coming down, and with the two Germanies uniting at this very point, the big question is — what to do with the bunker? I think it should be maintained. History is history whether Hitler was a criminal or not. This was the end of his life, here he committed suicide. Others are wary, like this East German border guard responsible for the bunker. I think it should be left as it is, but this is a matter for the historians. It mustn't become a new focus for fascists. How should today's young Germans treat Hitler's legacy — should his bunker be bulldozered for good, or preserved as a warning of the evils he stood for? Either course will spark protest and that's why fifty years later, the ruins remain — a perverse tribute to the ruined state to which Hitler left Germany. You're watching a review of the week's news from I T N. Fears grew for the tens of thousands of pelicans which are in danger of dying of thirst in Australia, as the country began recovering from devastating floods. An estimated two hundred thousand birds, eighty percent of the country's pelican population, have made an unusual detour in their migration, stopping at Lake Eyre in south Australia. There the waters are evaporating and supplies of fresh fish are dwindling. Chris Clark compiled this report at I T N on Monday. Australia's newest and largest pelican colony in the normally dry saltpan of Lake Eyre in inland Australia. Filled for the first time in twenty years, Lake Eyre became a rich source of food, attracting tens of thousands of birds whose closest usual breeding area is five hundred miles to the south. But now the water's evaporating, killing the tiny fish that brought the birds here in the first place, and as the food source disappears, many birds are dying. The young, unable to fly away, must rely on their parents making a two hundred and fifty mile round trip to other lakes and rivers to find food. Fresh water from the recently flooded east coast of Australia is heading towards Lake Eyre, but this will take months to arrive and it'll be too late for many of the thirty thousand chicks in the colony. If the food supply runs too low, many of the adults will be forced to simply abandon their young. This mass migration to the inland has only been recorded three times in the past century, and scientists are tagging thousands of birds, you attempt to get a log of the pelican's travels and try to understand what makes them leave their normally safe havens. The Hubble telescope was put into orbit from the American space shuttle Discovery. Its two solar rings will give it power for fifteen years to send back the closest and clearest pictures of the universe ever seen. Ken Rees sent this report from the United States on Wednesday. For astronomers around the world, it was the moment of the century. It may have been seven years late and a billion dollars over budget, but the Hubble space telescope was lifting out of the shuttle cargo bay and on its way to orbit at last, ready to look back across the universe to the very beginnings of time. Before the telescope could be deployed, two huge solar panels had to be unfurled. Houston to Discovery. It looks like motion's stopped with just about one panel showing. Two astronauts stood ready for their space walk and repair mission, but the problem was solved and the solar rays rolled into position. It's now being moved into its final orbit, three hundred and eighty miles above the earth. The telescope is powerful enough to detect the glow of a firefly ten thousand miles away, but it will detect light from fourteen billion years away, close to the presumed creation of the universe in a giant cosmic explosion. Discovery, go for Hubble release. Okay we have a ‘go’ for release and we're going to be a minute. Soon the telescope should begin sending back extraordinary pictures of other galaxies. It's the biggest step forward in astronomy since Galileo first used a crude telescope four hundred years ago. Now, our special report in which we take a closer look at a topical issue. Architects and developers are submitting ambitious plans for what's become one of the most valuable stretches of land in Europe. One hundred and forty kilometres long and up to eight hundred and fifty metres wide, the no man's land between the east and west sides of the Berlin wall is now available for development. There is controversy over what should be built on ground which includes sensitive sites from Berlin's war time history. I T N's arts correspondent, Fiona Murch reported from Berlin on the search for suitable ways to link the two very different halves of the city. This century alone, Berlin has had an extraordinary history — a natural, social, cultural and political centre, because of its location at the crossroads of east and west Europe. The wall which divided the city limited its development. Now Berliners aim to realise the potential that's eluded them since the war, and the development of no man's land is crucial; the practical realisation of unification, and it's fraught with problems. Just as the wall belongs to every Berliner on both sides, East and West, so does the entire site which, which now is left fallow so to speak. At the time of division, the two halves of the city were very different; the Soviet east hung on to the imperial Prussian centre, the West acquired the western shopping and residential areas. Either side of the wall, architectural development matched politics; the free-thinking west versus the conformist east. The capitalist West of the city is happy to embrace the socialist East, but worries about the latter's commercial naivety. There's concern that the authorities in the East might be exploited by foreign investors racing to acquire parts of the increasingly valuable empty sites. To protect their joint interests, the West Berlin summit has detailed Rainer Emmenlauer one of their own development consultants to act as an advisor to their colleagues in the East. Our advice is to take time to find out what they really want before they give away the sites to the private investors, because when they have done this, they can't erm participate in what is really developing. The Reichstag, once the seat of government in a united Berlin, dominates one end of the most valuable tract of land under discussion. In the land behind me, in what used to be no man's land is hidden the bunker where Adolf Hitler and Eva Braun committed suicide at the end of the war. There are still rooms underground. Ignored until now, redevelopment is forcing Berlin to confront its history practically. Build over and forget, or preserve and remember, there are dangers in both. It's an emotive issue and raises questions like whether it's appropriate that a company such as Daimler-Benz which played a major role in the Third Reich, should be allowed as they want to, to build their headquarters near Hitler's bunker. Controversy rages, but there is at least agreement that the sensitive sites should be preserved. Just in this area which has been the centre of terror of erm the nazis and of the Hitler regime. erm We should make our history visible. But before any dreams can be realised, there's the question of land rights to be resolved. Potentially the most valuable site in Europe, there are many claimants. For the area on the west side, we have different owners, erm but also erm the state of Berlin has an owner and for the east side, we also have different owners erm just like the others and this is a very acute legal problem for East Berlin and G D R. Architects on both sides of the wall are worried that racing to provide the new capital, the politicians are not taking time to consult Berlin's architects about the problems on either side of the wall. There'll be a competition to design the new centre, but the architects feel they should help establish the winning criteria. Just as the architecture built in the last thirty years in East and West Berlin reflects the different societies, so will what is to be built, play a part in determining the future of the united city. And so those architects who remember the Third Reich are fearful of the politician's desire to build on an imperial scale. But the pressure is on to re-create past glories, to think big like the extraordinary Grand Hotel in East Berlin, built just a few years ago. Ultimately, the decision rests with politicians, and they want a city that could be a great capital of Europe. That was a review of the week's news from I T N; from London, goodbye. Hello and welcome to this review of the week from Independent Television News in London. I'm Brenda Row, and these were the headlines: widespread protest in Israel and the occupied territories after Palestinians are killed by an Israeli; allegations of fraud as National Salvation Front wins Romanian elections, and seven die in an upsurge of violence in South Africa. First, there's been an increase in tension in the Middle East after an Israeli gunman shot dead seven Palestinian workers outside Tel Aviv at the weekend. At least fourteen more Palestinians were killed in subsequent clashes with the security forces and eight hundred were wounded; the clashes spilled over from the occupied West Bank and Gaza Strip to Arab areas of Israel. The army imposed curfews on the occupied lands, and one and a half million Palestinians were confined to their homes. In the Jordanian capital Amman, a Palestinian armed with a pistol and a knife attacked a group of French tourists, and the Jordanian police shot and killed two youths during a protest by tens of thousands of Palestinians. Brent Sadler sent this report from Israel on Sunday. Palestinian shock at the unprovoked killings quickly turned to anger. An eruption of violent anti-Israeli protest spread throughout the Gaza Strip where the Arab victims lived. Thousands of Palestinians fled their jobs in Israel and returned home, denouncing the shootings as a massacre of innocents, and calling on Arabs to observe three black days of mourning. Clashes with the army escalated rapidly; curfew orders were defied as stone throwers confronted army vehicles and pelted low flying helicopters with rocks; parts of Gaza blackened by burning protest tyres, were out of control. It was no different in the occupied West Bank where the protesters soon came up against army reinforcements. The Palestinian death count grew steadily, at least four were shot dead here in Gaza, and a line of stretchers, with hundreds more wounded Gazans piled into local hospitals. It was the bloodiest day in two and a half years of Arab protest against Israeli protest against Israeli rule, triggered off when a twenty one year old Israeli machine-gunned seven Arabs to death on a sandy road embankment outside Tel Aviv. Survivors thought their vehicles had been stopped for a security check; the shock of what they'd seen sent this young Palestinian into deep trauma. All the victims were shot from close range in the stomach and chest; the crime of a single madman according to Israel's Prime Minister. I hope that the Palestinian-Arab population will not erm utilise this atmosphere for increasing violence and bloodshed. No sooner had he spoken than Israeli peace activists enraged by the governments right wing policies, clashed with police in Jerusalem. The spectre of re-ignited conflict inside Israel, with Palestinian sorrow and fury outside, threatening to escalate violence and putting back the chances of Israeli-Palestinian dialogue still further. Several countries condemned the level of force used by Israel in the occupied territories. The American State Department said the lack of a viable peace process in the Middle East increased the danger that such incidents would provoke a spiral of violence. The United Nations Security Council met in special session to discuss the crisis. Liz Donnelly compiled this report in London on Monday. Israel's relationship with the United States is, just beneath the surface, under considerable strain. For the time being, the American peace plan has been killed off by the Labour Party's failure to form a government. Yet the United States subsidises Israel to the tune of four billion dollars a year, and Congress recently voted an extra four hundred million dollars in aid, to help settle the influx of Soviet Jews. The leading Republican Senator, Robert Dole caused uproar in Israel when he suggested this money shouldn't be taken for granted, but there's no sign the Bush administration is prepared to use this muscle. It is the lobby, in Congress and outside of Congress, it's still strong, the pro-Israel lobby, although now it's more divided than in the past, not unconditionally supporting everything that Tel Aviv does. On the other hand there's a certain inertia principle operating, it is always easier for an administration to do less than to do more in dealing with the Middle East, and especially with the central Palestine problem. Yitsak Shamir looks set to form Israel's next government; he's likely to take a hard line. Former Defence Minister Ariel Sharon discredited during the war in Lebanon, possibly back in a prominent post. President Mubarak of Egypt warned that the continued emigration of Soviet Jews to Israel, could spark a new war in the Middle East. He said the influx threatened the march towards peace, putting the whole region on the verge of a new bloody confrontation. Tim Ewart reported on Friday on the reasons behind the large scale emigration of Soviet Jews to Israel. Morning prayers at the Jewish synagogue; morning lessons at the Jewish school which operates on the balcony above. For years Judaism was suppressed in the Soviet Union, practised behind closed doors, and often in fear. The school was allowed to open only nine months ago. Glasnost has given Soviet Jews new freedoms, new confidence and new fears. These men are members of the anti-semitic Russian Nationalist movement, Pamyet, or memory; groups like this have benefited from Glasnost too. Prejudices, which in sterner communist days were officially taboo, have now burst into the open. It's a country where everybody hates everybody, for erm national erm point of view of your nationality, it's a hopeless situation. And so with most immigration restrictions now lifted, the Jews are fleeing. Fifty thousand went to America last year, the stricter regulations there have switched attention to Israel, which expects three quarters of a million in the next five years. They're fleeing a country where there are now frequent rumours of pogroms, and where Jews routinely suffer open abuse. On the wall opposite our windows there was an ins, an inscription erm made in English by the way — kill Jews. English teacher Natasha Kopilov, her husband Misha and fifteen year old son Yuri, leave for Israel next month. Defending a Jewish school friend has taught Yuri all about anti-semitism. His classmates started, started to curse erm to curse him and to humiliate him I think from the first or the second grade, and erm he was my friend, I had to, to fight for him. And so as their freedoms increase, their numbers dwindle. There remain just two million Jews in the Soviet Union; some predict that before long, there'll be hardly any at all. You're watching a review of the week's news from I T N. Official Romanian election results have confirmed a landslide win for President Ion Iliescu and his National Salvation Front. But the main opposition party say they may take legal action because they suspect fraud. International observers say the election was free from serious malpractice. Paul Davis reported from Bucharest on Monday. Celebrations began at the headquarters of the Salvation Front as the exit polls predicted more than eighty per cent of votes had been captured by Front leader, Ion Iliescu, in the three candidate race for the presidency. As counting got underway, the election was being given qualified approval by international observers. Five months since the most vicious dictator in Europe was in charge here, it's not surprising they didn't move to anything which was electorally perfect. I think it's a step towards the democracy the people in this country want. Present party leader Yon Ratiu continued to complain of dirty tricks by the Front. Cheating, I mean out and out cheating, that's what it is. In Bucharest's university square, scene of anti-front demonstrations for more than a month now, the debate continued with more accusations of electoral malpractice by the front. Judging from December, they, they started to lie, and they lied us again and again. In their encampment in the square, the hunger strikers said they would continue their protest against a new administration they describe as merely the old regime under a different name. Despite all the protest that his Salvation Front was too closely linked with the old communists, President Iliescu now almost certainly has a clear mandate to govern Romania. The first test of his promise that the bad old days are gone will be the manner in which he treats people like these, who continue to exercise their right to criticise his government. Nelson Mandela, the deputy president of the African National Congress, warned that efforts to end apartheid would collapse, unless the South African government ended violence by the security forces. Mr Mandela was speaking after the killing of seven blacks by police in a township near Welkom, in Orange Free State. Welkom has become a flashpoint in a nationwide confrontation between militant blacks and whites over President de Klerk's reforms. I T N's Southern Africa correspondent, Kevin Dunne, reported from Welkom on Monday. As the death toll rose from yesterday's police shooting, there were renewed clashes in Welkom's tense black township; youths burned and stoned vehicles, police responded with shotgun fire. Several more protesters were wounded, and a former local councillor was murdered by a mob for his association with apartheid authorities. Blacks accused the police of acting against them and not against armed white vigilantes. These erm white guys were shoot, were pointing firearms at our people. Instead of stopping them, they shot at our people who were not fighting. So all I mean is, erm these police are actually fighting us, in favour of the vigilantes. It was the appearance of the vigilantes in Welkom's white neighbourhoods, which heightened racial tension two months ago; blacks responded to vigilante attacks by boycotting white businesses, then last week on the goldmines, the flashpoint for tension — two white mineworkers were killed by black miners. The whites of Welkom buried those men today. It is in communities like these, Afrikaaner, deeply conservative, that opposition to President de Klerk's reforms is growing. So too is the threat of paramilitary force from whites who want to cling to apartheid. The violence and the killing are fuelling extremist factions and providing a pretext for men like vigilante leader, Hennie Muller. erm I think there's a war going on in Welkom now. In the black townships there is so much black on black violence, I think we can call it a war. And is there black against white warfare? erm Not at this time, but erm we expect them. Tonight the black township was sealed off to whites, but the potential for further clashes remained high. The government's fear is that there may be many more Welkoms waiting to happen, and if racial conflict does spread in South Africa, it could seriously unsettle a delicate process of change which is underway. The United Nations Secretary General, Javier Perez del Cuellar asked the Security Council to hold talks on a decision by the Nicaraguan Contra rebels to postpone their demobilisation. Meanwhile the new government of Violetta Chamorro successfully defused a week-long strike by leftist opponents. Rochelle Wilson reported last Thursday. It's estimated that some fifty thousand workers took part in the strike, which paralysed the country and threw the new government of Senora Chamorro into crisis. Factories were closed, industry shut down and central government came to a halt; there was no transport and the supermarket shelves emptied. The government accused the opposition Sandanistas of orchestrating the strike; they lost the February elections after ten years of socialist rule, but they still have supporters in key positions. Three days before the agreement was reached, the government tried strong arm tactics declaring the strike illegal and threatening to sack workers unless they returned within twenty four hours. But Senora Chamorro back-tracked and offered talks; the former left wing President welcomed the move. We are not interested in the collapse of this government, we're interested in the stability of Nicaragua, but not at the expense of the worker's interests. The national situation is very tense with these flights; if they keep putting kindling under the pot, it might explode. The talks produced a package including a one hundred per cent wage increase for public sector workers and a commitment that no strikers would be victimised. But the dispute also made it clear to President Chamorro that the Nicaraguan left is still a force to be reckoned with. Clashes between police and radical students broke out in the South Korean city of Kwangju. The demonstrations marked the tenth anniversary of an uprising when at least two hundred people were killed by the security forces. Student leaders vowed to continue anti-American protest because of Washington's alleged role in condoning repression. Caroline Finnigan reported on Friday. At least a hundred thousand people took part in a peaceful rally on the streets of Kwangju, marking the army's suppression of the nineteen eighty uprising. After the march came the violence as groups of students and other protesters confronted police; tear gas was used against them. At one point, a crowd ten thousand strong was involved in the clashes, petrol bombs and stones were thrown. Scuffles continued through the night. President Roe Tae Woo is not only facing such demonstrations, but an economy that is under severe pressure. Fifteen thousand car workers went on strike this week, the stockmarket fell to its lowest point in eighteen months and property speculation has forced rents beyond the reach of many. Massive economic growth made the country think it was going to be the next Japan. Public expectations ran high; consumerism reigned. Now workers say management created South Korea's problems by not investing profits into expansion; management say workers wanted too much money. Economic unease may be fuelling discontent, but ten years ago, the Kwangju demonstration was sparked by a crackdown on political dissent. The protest spread to the capital Seoul and other parts of the country. Officially the death toll was two hundred; unofficially it was estimated at thousands. Animal rights campaigners in the United States say fashionable breeds of dog are being mass-produced in kennels which are more like factory farms. They claim the animals often suffer from deformities and illnesses, and bitches are shot when they're no longer able to produce puppies. Ken Reece sent this report from the United States on Friday. The American Kennel Club registers one million new dogs a year. All, like these picture perfect Labradors, going to new owners who believe their dream puppy came to them from a caring environment. But most people never visit the actual kennels, buying their puppy in a pet shop, often on impulse; the original doggy in the window. Now a shocking report has revealed that most of these dogs are mass produced in hundreds of rural puppy factories, conditions have been likened to concentration camps for animals. The dogs live in appalling conditions, open to the weather, walking on wires, lying on excrement, they rarely exercise and often make pathetic attempts to escape. The woman on the right is rescuing a dog from a factory breeder, her vet found a listless, zombie-like animal with multiple problems. The ears are thickened, they're cracking, they're bleeding, they itch and they hurt; she almost scratched a hole on the outside of her ear because it hurt so much. As these little guys walk on, on solid ground, their nails push their wrists back, hyper-flex that wrist, and that is, that's almost crippling, they can hardly walk. And the puppies produced this way often have genetic defects from in- breeding. Thousands of illegal immigrants in Japan have surrendered to police and asked to be deported, before a new anti-immigration law comes into effect. The law will impose three-year jail terms and heavy fines. Every day, anything up to a thousand illegal Asian workers are crowding into Tokyo's main immigration bureau, asking to be deported. Many have been living for years in a shadowy, illegal world, doing the jobs that affluent Japanese now shun. For them, Japan was a magnet, promising them wages many times what they could earn at home, but according to one Pakistani worker who yesterday decided to speak out publicly, the reality was very different. They saw us just like we were jungle animals, jungle animals they treat us. We have no rights here, we have no liberty here, we have nothing here. But many Japanese industries are desperate for Asian workers, decades of economic growth have left the country with a severe labour shortage, the construction industry in particular, wants Asians to be allowed in legally, though many ordinary Japanese are horrified at the prospect of that. The annual frog-jumping contest in America's midwest suffered a plague of imposters this year. One owner imported giant African frogs to compete with the humble local bullfrogs. But as Roger Livingston reported on Friday, the final results surprised everyone. The Callaveros County frog jumping contest was immortalised by the American novelist, Mark Twain. They measure the total distance of three jumps by the frog, it doesn't matter how far the owner leaps. When the giant African frogs appeared, everyone thought this years contest was a foregone conclusion. Many feared they'd simply eat up the opposition, and with feet the size of human hands and powerful legs to go with them, the records looked set to be broken. But under pressure to perform, they flopped. All but three of the down-home American bullfrogs leapt further, creating waves of excitement. The eventual winner — Mr Wizard, his three leaps totalled just under six metres. Now our special report in which we take a closer look at an issue in the news. The latest problem to befall Mr Gorbachov's struggle to promote peristroika, or restructuring, has arisen in the vast Soviet agricultural community. Farmers in one of the most important regions are threatening a strike unless Mr Gorbachov meets their demands for higher prices. They also want more state investment in agriculture and an end to central planning. The farmers are the latest group of workers to threaten industrial action. David Smith reported on Monday from the farmlands of Yarislavl north of Moscow, where the unrest began. The old Russian city of Yarislavl once the country's cultural and religious capital; today a farming centre. This part of the Soviet Union, has always been self-sufficient, now people talk of hunger, even malnutrition. Shortages have become a way of life here, to find these people queueing for staple products shows just how desperate the situation has become. It's a crisis about to get worse, because the farmers of Yarislavl are set to go on strike, if their demands aren't met, then one of the largest agricultural centres in the country will cut supplies of milk, poultry and meat. It'll be the first farmers strike in the history of the Soviet Union, and it's already prompting strike calls elsewhere; in the farming capitals of the Caucasus and the Ukraine. The main reasons over their peasant's strike are: it is unjust, unfair prices, because the prices for the agricultural products and goods are too low and the prices for technics are too high. This is the Kratolsov collective farm, the biggest in the Yarislavl region. What's happened here is typical of the crisis peristroika has created; the farmers are caught in no mans land, between the free market and old style Marxism. Two years ago, such farms were told to be self-sustaining, self- financing, many state subsidies were withdrawn, yet here today they're still working to a central plan which dictates how much they produce and how much they're paid for it, so decades of mismanagement are compounded by a lack of funds. Pavel Penkin is the strike leader, what farmers want he says is a massive injection of state investment to enable them to compete in the new free market and improve their lot. If they don't, then he says the countryside will be stripped of it's most important resource — people to work the land. Speaks in Russian. The peasant class, the backbone of any revolution, feels exploited, and that's the basis for this revolt. Plus this means that the strike committee can go public with it's grievances, and in the past few days, the farmers and the authorities have been debating the issues on local television. The man representing the government washed his hands of responsibility, he could do nothing to meet the striker's demands, he said, because Moscow wouldn't let him. Speaks in Russian. If there's one hope in the farming community these days, it lies in the private tenant farming, which began under Gorbachov. The private farmers pay more for everything than the collectives, labour materials, taxes, yet they're beginning to turn a profit from the soil. In Yarislavl the cooperative farms now supply the small private markets that have grown in the past year, the quality and variety of the produce on sale here, clear evidence of the sad truth, that hunger in a place like this is a scandal. Yet even the cooperative farmers say they'll now support the strike. A year ago, it was the miners who went on strike, today it's the farmers who can wait no more. That was a review of the weeks news from I T N, from London, goodbye. Hello and welcome to this review of the week from Independent Television News in London. I'm Christabel King and these were the headlines: Boris Yeltsin wins crucial vote to become President of the Russian Federation; the I R A kills two Australian tourists in the Netherlands, and the opposition takes the lead in Burma's elections. But first, Boris Yeltsin the man sacked by President Gorbachov as Moscow Communist Party Chief, has been elected leader of the Russian Federation; Soviet Union's largest and most powerful Republic. Mr Yeltsin secured the required number of votes in his third attempt in four days, just as President Gorbachov flew off for a visit to Canada prior to his summit with President Bush in America. The result confirmed Mr Yeltsin as the leading figure among radicals who want to speed up the process of reform, and who believe President Gorbachov is not moving fast enough to dismantle the old system. Boris Yeltsin, a political outcast two years ago, was swept back into high political office; a unique and turbulent political career, capped now with the presidency of the powerful Russian Republic. Outside the Kremlin he was mobbed by supporters, for many, disillusioned with the system, cynical about Gorbachov's intentions, Yeltsin is their last hope for real political change. Supporters tearful, this woman saying that Russia had been reborn, that she'd never known such happiness. The vote, when it came, broke five days of deadlock for a post that will give Yeltsin no executive powers, but huge authority and the opportunity to help set a new political agenda for the Russian parliament. He responded with a warning and a promise; a warning he'll defend Russia's interests, a promise of dialogue with Gorbachov. If erm they would continue confrontation, erm it would be taken very badly by the population. If they, they demonstrate good consensus, they will both win in the public opinion enormously. Just off Red Square, crowds gathered to celebrate. Many expressed the feeling that Gorbachov is now more vulnerable than ever before, and that Yeltsin has a unique platform from which to attack the Soviet leadership. Whether Gorbachov's tattered image at home will benefit from his visit to North America, is increasingly in doubt; for those here, nothing can hide the failure of his domestic reform programme, and the economic part of that programme was again under debate in the Supreme Soviet. This parliament, which represents all fifteen Republics, voted to delay any decision to liberalise the economy, evidence again say Gorbachov's critics, that reforms are going nowhere fast. For the fourth day the Soviet Prime Minister Nikolai Ryskov, was still pressing deputies to accept a huge increase in prices as a painful first step. And so as the Soviet President left Moscow, shaking hands with Politburo members, he leaves behind a political challenge and an economic crisis; it threatens everything he's fought for. President Gorbachov left many other domestic troubles at home as he flew to North America. In the republic of Armenia, more than twenty people died in clashes between Soviet troops and Armenian nationalists. The clashes turned celebrations to mark Armenia's independence into a day of mourning. The worst trouble was in and around the capital Yeravan; Armenia declared itself independent in nineteen eighteen, but was annexed by the Soviet Union two years later. Derek Williamson compiled this report in London on Monday. The civil war in Armenia has now lasted over two years, and some Soviet commentators make bitter comparisons with Lebanon. Most of the latest casualties were civilians, shot by anti-riot forces sent in by the Kremlin, in advance of Monday's Independence Day celebrations. But instead of preventing bloodshed, their presence seemed to provoke it; two soldiers were also reported killed. Most of the deaths occurred in Yeravan's southern suburbs as Armenian militants tried to stop the advance of tanks and troops. Doctors who tried to help the wounded were caught in the crossfire, and in some places ambulances also came under attack. The mayor of Yeravan used his official car to evacuate some of the wounded. At the railway station in the centre of Yeravan, workers cleaned up after violence at the weekend; six militants died here in a shootout with troops. Tanks now patrol the city centre, and instead of a celebration of their Independence Day, Armenian nationalists were holding a day of mourning The Irish Republican Army admitted responsibility for the killing of two Australian tourists in the Netherlands. A spokesman for the I R A said its active service unit had tragically mistaken them for British soldiers. Dutch police believe the attackers had been confused by British licence plates on the car. Robert Hall reported from Roermond in the Netherlands on Monday. The party of young Australians had been out for a meal, and had stopped to take photographs, when Roermond's market square echoed to gunfire. Stephen Melrose and Nick Spanos died within minutes as a gunman fired at least twelve shots at close range. One man was outside, two were sitting inside, the men were completely black, so black trousers, black hats and they had a black cape over it, over their faces so you couldn't see who they were, and one of them just had this gun in his hand, and fired at this Citroen here located. The stolen Mazda getaway car was found burnt out two hours later. It had crossed the border into Belgium before police could seal the town; at a press conference there were denials that border security had been lax. Against erm murderers of this type where a certain insanity isn't erm far away, it's erm not very easy to erm protect ourselves. This attack will re-awaken criticism over the army's decision to issue service personnel with UK civilian style number plates; a scheme intended to offer extra protection, but which critics claimed would lead to civilian casualties. The military government in Burma said it would hand over power to the pro-democracy opposition which took an overwhelming lead in the elections for the National Assembly. The main opposition group, the National League for Democracy, said it expected to have an absolute majority when the final results are compiled in about three weeks. Rochelle Wilson in London reported on Monday. The first National Assembly elections in thirty years appear to have given the opposition an overwhelming lead. The military leader, General Saw Maung said he'd abide by the outcome. Whoever wins, that's not my business,. But the military were accused of intimidation by the opposition; their role in putting down the pro-democracy uprising in nineteen eighty eight, hasn't been forgotten. The election watchdog commission rejected the charges. We are confident that our elections are free and fair; it's nobody business outside Burma. Nonetheless, the opposition's most prominent figures were banned for standing. Aun San Suu Kiy the popular leader of the National League for Democracy, was kept under house arrest, though she was allowed to cast her vote in a sealed envelope. The military place strict limits on the size and location of election rallies, and campaign speeches had to be approved by government centres. You, you could call it fair, but erm it's rather restricted. Oh we can't do the campaigning like you do in the west. The opposition are by no means confident that the military leadership will hand over power once the results are through. They've promised to do so as soon as a new constitution has been written, but western diplomats say that could take up to two years. You're watching a review of the week's news from I T N. The winner of Columbia's presidential election has promised to continue the war against the country's drugs cartels. Cesar Gaviria, the candidate of the ruling Liberal Party, won forty seven per cent of the vote; the right wing National Salvation Movement had twenty four per cent and the former left wing guerrilla group M-nineteen, came in third with thirteen per cent. Colline Johnson reported on Monday. The relatives of the President elect were testing out their new roles at the victory party; Senor Gaviria now has a clear mandate to continue the crackdown launched by the outgoing President. In his acceptance speech, he called on industrialised countries to take steps to reduce worldwide demand for cocaine, he also ruled out pardons for drug traffickers, and said he'd maintain extradition agreements. This has been the bloodiest election campaign in Columbian history; in the last nine months, some two thousand people have died, including three presidential candidates. Several hundred thousand soldiers were deployed at ballot stations around the country, but less than half the eligible voters turned out. In a surprise result, the left wing M-nineteen group, led by Antonio Navarro, polled third place. If the government opts to include these former guerrillas in a National Unity Administration; the President will be free to concentrate efforts on dealing with the cocaine traffickers. But in the drugs capital of Medilline, the daily killings continue, the drug cartels are reportedly planning a fresh offensive, before the new administration can tighten its grip on the country. The South African President, F W de Klerk, accused the country's leading right wing movement of becoming irresponsible, undemocratic and dangerous. His attack on the Conservative Party followed the biggest ever rally in support of apartheid; tens of thousands of whites gathered in the capital Pretoria to denounce Mr de Klerk's reform programme, they called for elections to test its popularity. Kevin Dunn reported from South Africa on Saturday. In the shadow of their ancestors, right wing Afrikaaners muster to protest at their governments so-called betrayal of the white man, but the man responsible, President F W de Klerk, was himself being welcomed from a successful tour of Europe, where he said ‘South Africa's commitment to reform was believed’. But beneath the monument to Afrikaanerdom, the racist right wing were staging their biggest demonstration yet. This is the culmination of a campaign to mobilise white opinion against President de Klerk's reforms, and to launch what they're calling the third freedom struggle of the Boer Nation. Their ideal is a white fatherland, the consecration of apartheid in their own nation, and they pledged to fight for it. We shall not accept the threatened destruction of our nation's freedom, but will fight to restore that which has already been unjustly, been given away. The response then of these people to reform and negotiation — a resounding No. The leader of the Palestine Liberation Organisation, Yasser Arafat, accused the United States of providing flagrant support for the settlement of Soviet Jews in Israel. At a meeting of the Arab League in Baghdad, he attacked America for tightening its own entry policy, forcing the Jews to emigrate to Israel. Up to five hundred Soviets arrive every day, and it's the Israeli government's policy of settling them in the occupied territories of the West Bank that cause most Arab hostility. Brent Sadler reported on Tuesday. Within twenty five years, these Palestinian babies could live in a society where Arabs match Jews, one for one. Gaza women give birth on average, nine times, one of the highest birth rates in the world. Jewish mothers have no more than three children on average. Every one hundred thousand Soviet immigrants delays by one year the deadline, soon they will be pouring in at the record rate of twenty a thousand month. Danny Yushiskin and his wife in Tel Aviv await their parent's arrival from Leningrad; their home will be in the Israeli town of Ariel, a settlement town in the occupied West Bank. But according to Israeli officials, most of the Soviets choose to live here in Tel Aviv or Haifa in Israel proper, and that only a fraction, less than one per cent, go to the occupied territories. But even a trickle of new settlers like the Yushiskins, argue the P L O, is a serious threat. There will be a war between the Arabs and Israel; they are a threat to the Arab world. So that's the danger of these people. Israel is thrilled at the pace of absorption, and accuses the Arab world of manufacturing false conflict and fear; a conflict that is whipping up greater hostility among two peoples who claim the same land. You're watching a review of the week's news from I T N. Olympic officials in the United States have warned athletes that a wonder drug they're using to boost performances, could be lethal. It's been described as the perfect drug for cheats, but the International Olympic Committee has banned it. Ken Rees reported from the United States on Friday. Most athletes win honestly, but some will do anything to finish ahead of the pack, even using illegal drugs. Erythropoietin gives the cheaters a new and potentially deadly weapon; the synthetic hormone is used to treat kidney dialysis patients. It's ability to boost the production of red blood cells can also have an extraordinary effect on an athlete, increasing his aerobic capacity, and dramatically improving speed and endurance. I think it's a potential nightmare on the horizon. I think erm it's going to supersede erm anabolic steroids. Swedish researchers tested the drug on volunteers, like ten kilometre runner Manos Flink. I erm run about erm ten kilometres and with this E P O, I run about two and a half — three minutes faster than before. Such an improvement would rewrite the record books, taking perhaps ten minutes off a runner's marathon time, but E P O can also be deadly, leading to heart attacks and strokes in apparently healthy people. The mystery deaths of at least seven leading Dutch cyclists, led to speculation that some of those deaths might be linked to E P O. But now a test for the drug is years away, and for those athletes desperate enough to win, only their own sense of honour would stop them using it. Ken Rees, I T N, Washington. Immigration officials off the north coast of Australia have stepped up their efforts to intercept boat people arriving from Vietnam. In the late seventies, the authorities allowed many refugees to stay, but now they've adopted a tougher policy. Roger Maynard sent this report from Sydney on Thursday. Australia is used to refugees seeking sanctuary; thousands made their way here after the Vietnam War. Now, after a lull of several years, the boat people are heading for Australia again, this time from Cambodia. In the past few months, nearly two hundred have successfully made the dangerous voyage south; most head for the north-western Australia port of Broom, where they're interviewed by immigration officials. They have to prove they left Cambodia for political, not economic reasons, before being allowed to stay. It's a process that can take up to six months, but all this has not deterred hundreds more refugees from attempting the hazardous journey south. Australian coastguards make daily air patrols in an effort to spot incoming craft. Now with the monsoon season over, and several more boatloads of Cambodians reported on their way by Indonesian officials, Australian immigration authorities are preparing for yet another major influx of refugees. Fifty years ago, the British expeditionary force fighting the German army in France, was driven back to the beaches of the town of Dunkirk. An armada of small private boats and a flotilla of naval vessels sailed to the rescue; more than three hundred and fifty thousand men were saved, men who were able to return to the battle against Hitler's armies in Europe and Africa. Veterans of the evacuation held a commemoration ceremony on Sunday, and I T N's Robert Hall was with them. Fifty years ago they would have said this trip was impossible; crouching on beaches, men in their teens and early twenties had believed they would never see another dawn. Today, the near miracle of Dunkirk drew its pilgrims back to face their memories. erm It means a lot to me, the people we lost, and erm this is why it is a pilgrimage, for myself. On Dunkirk's sunlit main street, Sid Carter marched again with five thousand of those who did make it back; old friends reunited, new friendships established, and all remembering a very different June day. Off Dunkirk's beaches, a unique sight; fifty years on, the little ships were back, forming a circle to stage their own remembrance ceremony. Prayers too for those who were lost; the fire tender Massie Shaw, paying her own tribute. At the edge of the sands, men who were rescued, turning their heads towards the fleet and recalling once more lost comrades. Now our special report where we take an in-depth look at an issue in the news. The World Cup Soccer Championship begins in early June in Italy, and an I T N investigation has revealed that hooligans are planning big trouble. One of the main battlegrounds is expected to be the island of Sardinia, which will host England, the Netherlands, Ireland and Egypt. Groups of thugs, especially from England, openly boast that they're going to the World Cup to fight their rivals. I T N's Robert Parker went to the Netherlands, England and Sardinia to compile this report. Are you going to Italy? For the Holland game, yes. I mean, do, do you think there's going to be trouble? I hope there is. You hope there is? Italy are going to be defending their territory, they've got all these teams in their country, and like, some of them; England, Holland, German, they're going to like be there on Italian sort of territory and they don't want that, they're going to be, there's going to be trouble I think. English fans have at the moment, the reputation of being the top boys in Europe, and there will be others from Holland, Germany and erm let's face it, also Italy who'll be out to knock them off their pedestal. At the moment, most attention is focused on the island of Sardinia, where in Caliari, England will play Ireland, Holland and Egypt in the first round. The supporters from three of these teams have a history of violence; in Cairo, riot police are nearly always on hand, and even referees need protection from death threats. In Holland, supporters often use firework bombs, which have caused serious injuries; the violence of Dutch football supporters is just as great as anything in England, and with these two teams meeting, the expectation of violence is high. Contact has been made between the Dutch and the English hooligans and arrangements are in hand to erm effect meetings in Sardinia, yes. Is that a nice way of saying that there's going to be a lot of fighting, is that what they've been planning? Yes, yes, our intelligence is that erm planned meetings, in other words, planned violence is in the pipeline for Sardinia, which means the Dutch and English fans. But when we went to Holland, a rather different picture emerged. The Dutch are relaxed about many social issues, including it seems, football violence. At one of the most notorious ground in the Hague, fans have been allowed to celebrate the violence of the game in a graffiti art form around the north side of the ground. The fans are equipped with baseball bats and knives; the club's symbol, a pelican has a bomb attached to its foot, and this presumably rival supporter has had his eye gouged out. Surprisingly, the supporters who occupy these terraces, anticipate much less trouble than English supporters. I think they just want to see the football, I don't think there are going to be any riots; there's no organisation, no just going for the fun. I mean, it's said that some English and some Dutch fans are getting together to plan trouble. You haven't heard of anything like that at all have you? No, don't think it's true. I think it's rubbish. It's not just the Dutch fans saying this; amongst every Dutch crowd are plain clothes policemen, known to troublemakers. Information gained from this open contact suggests that no trouble is being planned, and there is no evidence, as the English police say, of any plot between the Dutch and English. We have information that the Dutch are planning trouble with the English, and my feeling is that erm that erm amount of Dutch supporters that could cause trouble will not be very high. But back in England, the view amongst English supporters is very different, for they seem to think that the Dutch regard the English fans as the number one target. What I hear, which was straight off the phone last night, is that the Dutch fans will team up with the English fans, and back the English fans on to the beach and they will try and drown a few of the English people and they will throw bombs at them. For the hooligans like, jealous of the fact that English hooligans have got all the erm the headlines over the years, and that, now they, they sort of think, well lets show them we can do it. Because of concern about the trouble, the British authorities have gone to great length to prevent hooligans getting to Italy. A government anti- hooligan committee has been sitting with the Football Association; they've drawn up a great body of information collated by the police football intelligence unit based in London. The unit has pulled together information from undercover work by police forces throughout the country, like here in Manchester. The police and football authorities now say they have a good picture of who's who in the hooligan world. The plan is that none of these people will be able to purchase any of the seven thousand tickets available to England for the first round matches. These tickets will only be available through the Football Association, or through a special package holiday purchased through two official travel agencies, the cheapest of which will cost about five hundred pounds. The Football Supporters Association says that the majority of English fans will travel to Sardinia without tickets and with nowhere to stay. If there's insufficient space for the army of fans, many of them might end up on the beaches, which the Italian police have expressly forbidden. The thousands of English fans arriving here hope to buy tickets from the Italians; if they succeed, that means they will all end up in areas reserved for rival fans, another pointer to problems. Perhaps the worst problem will come with the Italians fans themselves, on whose home ground the World Cup is being played. In nineteen eighty five, they fought with the English at Heysel, and this year, in their domestic league, a number of people have been killed; it doesn't bode well. That was a review of the week's news from I T N, from London, goodbye. Saddam Hussein claimed that God was on his side. Tornadoes devastated the American Mid West. First, Iraq has threatened to attack Israel and Saudia Arabia with missiles and bombs if war breaks out in the Gulf; the Iraqi News Agency said the warning had come from the country's Air Force Commander. In Washington President Bush said he would try to persuade other countries to help pay the cost of enforcing the United Nations sanctions aimed at making Iraq withdraw from Kuwait. But moves to find a peaceful solution to the crisis continue; in Jordan the United Nations Secretary General, Javier Perez del Cuellar held talks with the Iraqi Foreign Minister Tariq Aziz. Meanwhile Baghdad radio reported that two hundred and thirty seven Western women and children were preparing to leave Iraq, twenty eight others said they wanted to stay with their men. A first group of western women and children was moved out of potential war targets to a hotel in Baghdad. In his first interview with American television, President Saddam Hussein told C B S News that he didn't want war with the west, but he claimed that God was on his side and said that Iraq would come out victorious in any conflict. We apologise for the technical quality of the interview with President Saddam in this report; which was filed by Alistair Stewart from Washington on Thursday. For C B S this was the greatest coup in the coverage of the crisis. Dan Rather asked if Hussein would withdraw from Kuwait. Kuwait is part of Iraq. Forever? We have said this. So did he fear a U S air strike to force him out? So, yes, the United States Air Force may be able to destroy cities, plants, installations and people, but it will never be able to be decisive in concluding the battle. And would Iraq's response be the use of chemical weapons? I haven't said this. What I'm saying is that Iraq is an independent state, an independent sovereign state, and whoever attacks Iraq to change the government or to destroy Iraq, then they should expect that Iraq is not going to be an easy bite to swallow. Rather asked Hussein about the pressures on George Bush and the prospects for any negotiations. If we were to have dialogue, if dialogue were to be opened between us and I am now talking about dialogue and not of debate, then erm it is only erm, I'm certain that there would be a great deal to, to say to him from us on our part, and I am also sure that he will have a great deal to say. Two senior Senators gave their reactions to Saddam's message. My own view is that the President and the other nations are to help Saddam wind up his regime, I would hope the Iraqis would do that, but if not, they, then we, that is the United Nations. The notion of removing Saddam Hussein is a more probable outcome if in fact we continue to move as a world effort rather than a U S effort to unilaterally move in military Do you think that? The White House view is that talk is still better, but force is available if need be. Alistair Stewart, I T N Washington. The European Community has approved emergency food aid for the tens of thousands of refugees arriving in Jordan from Iraq and Kuwait. Jordan is facing immense difficulties trying to provide food and shelter for the evacuees. Many Egyptians have left for home, but as they departed, a new wave of Asian refugees from Iraqi occupied Kuwait arrived. I T N's Charles Hodson reported from Jordan on Tuesday as the Jordanian government urged countries to repatriate their nationals more quickly. Nearly four weeks after the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait, the flood of refugees continues. Up to twenty thousand a day are being allowed to cross into Jordan from Iraq, but thousands more are said to be waiting just across the border. A quarter of a million are expected in the next ten to twelve days, and the overall total of refugees from Iraq and Kuwait may amount to a full million. Foreign assistance has taken some of the strain off the Jordanian authorities; with Canada now pledging two point two million dollars in aid, and the European Community committing itself to sending a further three point seven million dollars in food aid. But police here say they've had growing problems in regulating the tide and have even ordered groups of refugees to return to the border post to allow time to clear bottlenecks further down the five hundred mile route to the Red Sea port of Aqaba. Refugee camps here in Amman are said to be crammed to capacity, the authorities are growing more and more concerned about the numbers of Asian refugees, Indians, Bangladeshis, Pakistanis, Philippinos and Thais. There are now forty five thousand in Amman alone. Jordan is now expected to press Asian governments to act more vigorously to help repatriate their nationals, meanwhile reports that Iran is willing to open its border with Iraq to refugees, have been greeted with relief here, although it's still not clear whether the Baghdad authorities will cooperate with this. And a report that a Polish plane has conducted the first ever direct evacuation from Kuwait of a hundred refugees, have further raised hopes here. Charles Hodson, I T N, Amman. Kuwaitis left stranded in Britain following the invasion of their country at the beginning of August are helping to form a national resistance movement; in some cases, small groups of men have gained access to Kuwait to fight the occupying Iraqi forces. They claim that opposition to Saddam Hussein's troops is growing, as Tim Friend reported on Wednesday, one of the resistance fighters has recently returned to London after being wounded. Less than a month ago, Nasser al Marri was an investment analyst in the city. Now he says he's a veteran of the Kuwaiti resistance movement, with battle scars to prove it. In Kuwait, the resistance, we are not trying to kill them, we are trying to destroy their tanks, to destroy their erm bases, to take their weapons, and to bring them to our sides for to send them to Saudi. He says he was shot in a gun battle with Iraqi troops but escaped to Saudi Arabia. He claims the resistance movement is growing, using weapons bought from disaffected Iraqi soldiers. In every street in Kuwait there is a resistance, there are young guys, women, kids, you know there are many different kinds of resistance not to carry their weapons, but to say no to them. The campaign to keep the Kuwaitis plight in the public eye is organised from a semi-detached house in central London. In the kitchen they write news bulletins for a daily radio programme for exiles. Among the campaigners is this Kuwaiti princess, in London when the Iraqis invaded, she doesn't want to be identified because she fears for her life. I have to be very careful, not for myself only, it's for everybody else, every other Kuwaiti. Is it a realistic risk though, that erm you could come, you could be killed here? Well, considering the security here in Great Britain, I hope that they have taken a precaution for that, but then we're dealing with a person who does not go by the book. The campaign headquarters has helped hundreds of Kuwaitis stranded here, like fourteen year old Isham Fadel on holiday with his family and running out of money. Help has come partly from donations, but cash for a resistance movement in a drawn out conflict could come from the Kuwait investment office; it has a hundred billion dollars in foreign assets. Tim Friend, I T N central London. I T N would like to hear from anyone who's shot video pictures in Iraq or Kuwait since the Gulf crisis began. If you can help, please contact the foreign desk, Independent Television News, 48, Wells Street, London W1P 4DE Telephone: London oh seven one — six three seven — two four two four, that's oh seven one — six three seven — two four two four. And now the news from the rest of the world. More than twenty people were killed and hundreds injured when tornado storms struck the American Mid-West. Although the tornados struck south of Chicago, they did most damage in the nearby town of Plainfield. Rochelle Wilson compiled this report on Wednesday: Three tornadoes left a trail of devastation as they swept through the small town of Plainfield. Rescue services dug into the rubble to bring out the survivors and the bodies of the dead including the principal of a Catholic school. Half the school is just completely rubble. There are, there are people in there, they found almost everybody, they've found two people that the principal was buried with, they finally had dug her up — she's dead. Ten of the twenty four who died were in a block of three storey flats; children were among them, their bodies found in a nearby field. Officials say that nearly three hundred were injured in the storm, which reduced buildings to matchwood. But the counting of the dead and the search for survivors goes on, the residents of Plainfield, less than four thousand of them, are familiar with this sort of havoc; in nineteen sixty seven, a tornado killed thirty two people. Those who's homes were damaged, were just thankful to be alive, for many, there was nothing left at all, and they were moved to emergency shelters. The destruction area, spread across five miles, taking in some of the suburbs of Chicago itself. You're watching a review of the week's news from I T N. Right wing soldiers in the Philippines have written to national newspapers saying they intend to launch a bloodless coup against President Corizon Aquino, and to replace her with a military junta. The move comes after a spate of bomb attacks in the capital Manila. President Aquino has urged village leaders to fight what she calls the psychological terror spread by right wing rebels. This report was compiled in London on Tuesday by Gerry Armitage: Corey Akino has survived six previous coup attempts; the most serious was last December when more than a hundred people died and six hundred were wounded before loyal troops finally crushed the revolt. This latest open letter from the rebel leader, cashiered Colonel Gregorio Honason appears to confirm the government's belief that he no longer has the ability to launch another military uprising. But a string of bomb attacks in Manila in recent weeks has led many people to believe that a new coup attempt can't be far away. With business confidence in Manila at rock bottom, President Aquino is in a specially weak position; power shortages and blackouts are crippling manufacturing industry, and oil sanctions because of the Gulf crisis are exacerbating her problems. Defence Secretary, Fidel Ramos, says any reports the Philippines two hundred and fifty thousand manned armed forces would oust Aquino, are absurd. He claims dissident soldiers didn't have the ability to launch a coup, but he warned they could mount attacks against government officers and business establishments to cripple the economy. The five permanent members of the United Nations Security Council have agreed on a peace plan that could end more than ten years of civil war in Cambodia. All five members, the United States, the Soviet Union, Britain, France and China have at various times, armed and supplied rival factions in Cambodia. It's now hoped that China having fallen into line with the other four, will end its support for the notorious Khmer Rouge guerrilla army. This report was filed from Tokyo on Tuesday by James Mates: One of the Khmer Rouge leaders, Khieu Samphan was in Beijing last week, discussing China's future support. Its been men like Prime Minister Lee Phung and others in the leadership who have kept his army in the field ever since Vietnam invaded Cambodia back in 1979. Since that time, little has changed on the battlefield; with a plentiful supply of Chinese arms and money, and bases in Thailand from which to operate, the Khmer Rouge was strong enough to resist the Vietnamese, But when Vietnam pulled out last year, the stalemate was broken; Britain and the United States who'd been backing other less murderous guerrilla factions, began to tire of the war and withdrew their support. Cambodia's Prime Minister, Hun San backed by the Soviet Union, said he'd settle for elections if the U N organised them, which left just the Khmer Rouge blocking every avenue for peace. But there's a long way to go yet; U N observers were in Cambodia earlier this year, but without unanimous support, they achieved very little. The new peace plan envisages one of the biggest U N peace keeping operations ever mounted, and that again will require the support of all factions. But if China really is now backing peace and free elections, the signs are more hopeful than they've been for a decade. The freed Irish hostage, Brian Keenan has called on Britain and America to start negotiations to try to get other western hostages out of Lebanon. He said ‘there is willingness, why not talk’. Mr Keenan was speaking during a news conference in Dublin in which he gave a moving account of his four and a half years in captivity. This report from Andrew Simmonds was sent from Dublin on Thursday: Free to speak his mind, Brian Keenan wanted to tell the world his graphic and compelling account of life as a hostage. Mostly it's a crucifying aloneness, there is a silent screaming slide into the bowels of ultimate despair. I feel no desire for vengeance, I feel no desire for retribution; I don't see those as positive. And Brian Keenan's return after four and a half years of captivity, carried this message for western governments: Time to talk, it's obviously time to talk. There is a willingness — why not talk? His most emotional words were about his fellow hostage and friend who he called John boy. How can I forget Johnny McCarthy whose humour, whose mimicry, whose abundant love of life on so many, on so many times seemed to diminish almost to extinction, those grinding moments of hopelessness. Now our special report where we take a closer look at one of the issues made from the news. In Johannesburg, in South Africa, the white-run council has voted to allow all races to live together in the city. The move challenges Pretoria's view about the pace of reforming apartheid. President de Klerk has said the city should not apply to become an apartheid-free zone before the relevant race laws are scrapped, probably next year. But, as one of I T N's southern African correspondents, Mike Hannah reports: ‘this move by Johannesburg doesn't begin to address the root of the problem; the acute housing shortage for hundreds of thousands of black squatters, working in white areas’. In a final bid to stop the bulldozers destroying their shacks, the women of this illegal squatter community stripped to the waist. But their plea and their protest is futile. It's a scene that's repeated throughout South Africa and here, as on many other occasions, violence is the inevitable result as police disperse the squatters with tear gas. More than seven million people in urban areas live in what is euphemistically described as informal housing. At the root of the problem is the process of urbanisation; the mass movement of people from the impoverished rural areas to the cities. But it's a problem accentuated in a white ruled society that for decades regarded migrant blacks as temporary sojourners in urban areas, and little was done to accommodate them until influx control laws were removed four years ago. It was madness to begin with, the only trouble is, it took forty years for the government to discover it's own craziness and to begin to dismantle it, we are now reaping the legacy of that, of, of the, the accumulated folly of forty years is now bursting upon our cities. And as the pressure mounts, squatters are encroaching on what was once idyllic whites only areas and the residents of Hout Bay near Capetown are made increasingly aware that in this time of political reform, they are no longer sheltered from the reality of life in the black townships. There's no toilets, nothing for them, I mean they're doing everything in public, I mean it's not right, it's making life bad and this is meant to be a holiday resort. Well, I think they must get out, I mean they can't live like that. They can't live like that, neither can we live like that. But the squatters are adamant they will not be moved and argue they are testing the good faith of whites who profess to want change. We are also forcing the white people in the communities now to take a stand on the whole thing; they've always ignored us. We want to have a new South Africa. That's why we want to stay in Hout Bay and most of us are working for them here in Hout Bay; they should know that. They should also give their people a place to stay here in Hout Bay. It's a deep dilemma for a community that has traditionally regarded itself as liberal. The local residents organisation says it's opposed to laws that segregate residential areas on the grounds of race, but at the same time it accuses the state of appearing reluctant to apply laws governing squatting. So this is not a question of colour we're not against squatters, we're against squatting; there's a big difference. We're not against people, we're against what they're doing, and they are breaking the law. The bulldozers are increasingly ineffectual, as soon as they leave, new shacks spring up like mushrooms. For the de Klerk government it's a political as well as social problem and controlled black urbanisation is to the white right wing, a vivid example of the evils of political reform and will be a dominant issue in any election or referendum; but there appears to be no alternative. As temporary shacks turn into permanent dwellings, it's clear that the drive of people to have a home in the area they choose is unstoppable, and the cost of insufficient planning to this and future governments is incalculable. Mike Hannah I T N, South Africa. That was a review of the week's news from I T N, from London, goodbye. Hello, and welcome to this review of the week from Independent Television News in London. And once again it's been a week in which the events in the gulf have dominated the headlines. I'm Julia Somerville and these were the main stories. Refugees from Kuwait and Iraq threatened by disease and starvation. British evacuees return home after a gruelling journey across the desert. And, the leaders of North and South Korea finally shake hands. But first. Conditions in Jordan's desert camps worsened dramatically this week as internation aid agencies launched their biggest relief effort since the Ethiopia famine of nineteen eighty-four. More than one hundred thousand refugees from occupied Kuwait and Iraq are stranded in makeshift camps, where there's a desperate shortage of food, water and medicine. The majority of them are from Thailand, the Philippines and the Indian sub-continent. Crown Prince Hassan of Jordon said his country was facing a severe economic crisis. He accused the West of ignoring the plight of the Asian refugees and concentrating instead on the Western nationals held in Kuwait and in hotels in Baghdad. Thousands of evacuees are now being moved out of the appalling desert slum at Shaalan as the authorities try to ease the tension. Getting supplies to this place two hundred miles out of Amman has also proved a nightmare. Many are now being shifted to a new camp closer to the capital. Rachma'an or ‘Mercy Camp’ as it is in English has been established by church organisations and Save the Children to provide more comfortable conditions whilst these people wait for repatriation. But the volunteers have had to borrow one hundred thousand pounds so far to set it up. The response is coming through slowly, but we've had to take a lot of initiatives on our own and we are hoping that others will come and support and back these initiatives. Two more camps will be open by Monday with room for fifty thousand more. At last operation Airlift is beginning to work.. A Russian , the first of nine charter flights due to ferry in nine hundred tonnes of rice over the next two weeks. In return they will fly nearly three thousand people back to Bangladesh. In Amman, the lucky ones clammer to see if their names are on the list for repatriation. But the emergency is by no means over. I wouldn't say the worst is over. I wouldn't say that because still the problem is on the other side of the border and I have no indications of how many people will move, are on the move, are perhaps waiting to come in. The relief organisations are now preparing to house and feed a constant population of well over a hundred thousand every day for at least the next three months. The estimated cost of this operation is over sixty million pounds. So far they've got barely half that amount. Jeremy Thompson, I T N in Jordan. Two hundred and fifty British women and children who escaped on a convoy out of Kuwait, arrived back in Britain to be reunited with their families. the convoy had been organised by British embassy officials in Baghdad, with the backing of the Iraqi government. As the group arrived back in Britain, President Saddam Hussein said that Westerners trying to leave Iraq without permission could face life imprisonment. Western men are being forced to stay in Iraq and are being sent to strategically important targets to deter any attack from the multi-national force in the Gulf. Joan Thirkettle reported on the women and children's return on Friday. Home at last through the terminal building and straight into the arms of their loved ones. Deborah Hodgetts was a stewardess with Kuwait Airways. Like all the others she had no idea if she'd see her family again. Now you soft sod. Outside there were tales of Westerners hiding in cupboards and vivid descriptions of Kuwait as a city under siege. I was able to travel quite freely for about a week, and then after that, I wasn't able to go out at all. So how were you getting food and water? erm People were bringing it for us, friends were bringing it into us. There was a lot of looting, erm a lot of burnt out buildings, erm ministry buildings, erm looting in those buildings. A lot of homes have been raided erm and I believe a lot of people have been taken, of all nationalities. Had to stay, stay away from the windows. Once when I was looking out the back of the palace and shots around the back and a shell hit the palace, so it came in my eyes and it hit Are your eyes alright now? Yes. The family of Captain Nash, who accused the government of issuing the wrong advice to Britons living in Kuwait, also got back today. Got the whole family home now. Did you feel that you were going to get out? Eventually, but it might have been in a couple of years I thought . Jane Copley, sister of Joanna Copley who set up the help line was in no doubt about what must be done now. It's wonderful to be back but it's also very sad because a lot of people are still in Iraq and Kuwait and they need to be got out. There's no prospects for instance for the men at the moment without strong negotiations. About fifty people due on the flight today were stopped at Baghdad airport by Iraqi authorities, it's not clear why they're being held. Joan Thirkettle, I T N, Gatwick. President George Bush and President Mikhail Gorbachev will meet in Helsinki this weekend to discuss the Gulf crisis. The Soviet government indicated that Moscow would be willing to provide troops for a U N peace keeping force in the Gulf, but urged Washington not to take unilateral action. Sarah Spiller in Washington examined the prospects for improved Soviet-American cooperation on the Gulf crisis and sent this report on Friday. To date the U S have been able to count on diplomatic backing from the Soviet Union over its stand against Iraq; but Bush would like them to take a more active military role in the Gulf. The Soviet Union has sent some naval forces, but that's about it. On the other hand, the Soviet Union have good cause to be worried about the military build up of troops in Saudi Arabia. Some inside the Soviet Union say the troops show the U S remain ready to use its military might. And there are problems closer to home. Any de-stabilization in the Middle East will extend to the Soviet Union's already restless Muslim population in Central Asia. Mr Gorbachev may not have the authority to send Soviet troops to non-Russian parts of his own country at this point, so it's very unlikely that he could or would try to send ground forces to the Persian Gulf. But while the two sides seem to have considerable ground to make up, both countries are aware of how much they still need each other. There's been talk of the United States sponsoring a joint western effort to provide fairly substantial economic assistance to the Soviet Union in return for a more active Soviet role in the Gulf. That's possible, although I think not likely, and if that happened, it would be a major development. However unlikely some kind of trade-off might be, both leaders are acutely aware of the possibilities of this summit. The most Bush can hope for is Soviet agreement for more help for the military blockade; what he'll probably achieve is yet another condemnation of Saddam Hussein. I T N would like to hear from anyone who's shot video pictures in Iraq or Kuwait since the Gulf crisis began. If you can help, please contact the foreign desk, Independent Television News, forty eight Wells Street, London, W1P 4DE, Telephone: London oh seven one six three seven two four two four, that's oh seven one six three seven two four two four. Other news now, and it's more than a thousand days since Palestinians in the Israeli-occupied West Bank and Gaza strip began the Intifada or uprising which has cost hundreds of Arab lives. The Intifada has been eclipsed by the crisis in the Gulf and the Palestinian support for the Iraqi President have strained relations with western countries. Louise Bates compiled this report on Wednesday. The Palestinians deepest fear that their cause an independent Palestine was lost in world politics was just one reason for the launch of the Intifada nearly three years ago. Since then, around seven hundred Arabs have been killed and thousands more injured; but when one Palestinian falls there's always another ready to take their place. Israel's well-equipped military has managed to keep a lid on the uprising degenerating into chaos, but it hasn't defeated the armies of stone-throwing youths. More than a million and a half Palestinians live in the occupied territories, their treatment prompted repeated accusations by western governments as well as those in the Middle East, that Israel's crackdown has been too harsh, at times undisciplined; one image of violence by Israeli forces aroused world-wide condemnation. The situation in the Gulf may now dwarf the Palestinian issue, but no Middle East crisis can be seen in isolation; a thousand days of protest has assured the plight of Palestinians has rarely been off the world agenda. For the families the dead have left behind though, that's little consolation. The South African President, F W de Klerk announced he would meet President Bush later this month in the first visit to the United States by a South African leader in four decades. Meanwhile, in South Africa, Mr de Klerk held talks with the African National Congress to discuss the A N C's decision to suspend its armed struggle. The meeting took place against a background of increased factional fighting between supporters of the A N C and the conservative Zulu Inkahta movement. Mike Hannah reported from South Africa on Thursday: The suspension of the armed struggle just over a month ago was seen as a break-through, but within days, peace seemed as far away as ever. And what began as apparently inter-tribal friction developed into an on going township war between the A N C, the Zulu-based Inkahta movement and the State Security Forces. Within days too, came different interpretations of what ‘suspension of the armed struggle’ meant. Nelson Mandela's wife, Winnie angered the government by saying that it merely meant contemporary end to armed action and that the A N C reserved the right to reactivate its armed guerrillas at any time. Putting further strain on the talks are the hawks within government; in particular, Defence Minister Magnus Malan has been excluded from both the official meetings between the state and the A N C. He's been quick to make capital out of what he regards as the A N C's incomplete suspension. The Prime Ministers of North and South Korea shook hands in the South Korean capital, Seoul, in the highest level meeting since the country was divided at the end of the second World War. Unification if it happens, is likely to be a slow process, but the fact that the visit took place at all is a dramatic break through on one of the last frontiers of the cold war. James Mate sent this report from Tokyo on Tuesday: North Korea's Prime Minister Yon Hyong Muk stepped across a border normally so secure that neither letters nor telephone calls are allowed through. Symbolically, it was a significant moment, but it doesn't go much beyond symbolism. The chief reason for this visit happening at all is that the Soviet Union wants it to; Soviet Foreign Minister, Edouard Sheverdnaze was in North Korea, putting pressure on his fellow Communists to reform; the Soviets are fed up with subsidizing them and anyhow, want economic help from the capitalists in South Korea. This week's talks may lead to some reductions in American troop levels in the South, even to a scaling down of the military exercises that so infuriate the North, but it's unlikely anything will happen about the border itself, which will remain the most heavily fortified in the world. The North Koreans can't afford to open it. To allow large numbers of Southerners into their highly regimented society could unravel everything the Stalinist regime there has created in the last forty years. While Kim Il Sung, the self-styled Great Leader still rules what he calls ‘Paradise on Earth’ there's virtually no chance of the two Koreas following the path of the two Germanies. Protests by French farmers against low-cost imports of foreign meat have become increasingly violent. In one incident near Limoges in central France, farmers slaughtered nearly four hundred animals from a British lorry and dumped their carcasses outside the home of a local politician. I T N's Vernon Mann sent this report from France on Thursday. Evidence of the mounting anger and frustration felt by French farmers surfaced again today; this time in central France. Hijacked British lambs set loose in the streets of Bellac near Limoges. A British truck from York, stopped by local farmers, the driver was powerless to stop them. He is reportedly unharmed. The sheep were driven into the garden of the local Prefect. They were later slaughtered. The farmers gathered then at the gates of the local authority offices and forced them open. They dragged the carcasses inside, police doing little to stop them. Perhaps wisely they didn't react either, as farmers gathered noisily in the streets. Then the demonstrators set fire to a hedge and still the C R S kept their distance. Sheep farmers from all over France are protesting at cheap imports from eastern Europe, Ireland and Britain, they want government help, and until they get it, incidents like this will no doubt continue despite British appeals for police protection for British livestock drivers. Vernon Mann, I T N, Central France. The launch of the space shuttle Columbia was delayed for the third time since May following the discovery of a fuel leak near its engines. The American Space Agency NASA gave no indication of when the flight would be re-scheduled, and grounded the entire shuttle fleet pending an enquiry into the leak. Colline Johnson compiled this report on Thursday: We will be scrubbing this launch attempt for Thursday morning. Columbia was only eight hours from liftoff. NASA scientists had thought they'd solved the technical problems which have dogged the Space Agency. The hydrogen fuel leak is similar to one which grounded Columbia a few months ago. I don't believe it's a new leak, I think it's one that's been there all along. The postponement was a crushing disappointment to NASA engineers who were hoping that a successful flight would restore Congressional confidence in the Agency. Sure, we're all frustrated. We'd be lying if we didn't say that. But erm safety first. It was also frustrating for the scientists who'd been working on this project for more than a decade. We were extraordinarily disappointed at first about the delay but a cancellation would be just about too much to bear. Columbia's payload has been waiting for a shuttle ride since nineteen eighty six. If another launch attempt is not made in the next ten days, then it could face cancellation. And now our special report. Despite the Gulf crisis, petrol in America is still cheap. But dependence on imported oil has concentrated American minds on whether the United States should increase its own oil production or just use less. There are new oil fields off the American west coast, but environmental restrictions have made exploration and development almost impossible. However the conservationists and oil companies both agree that President Bush must now come up with a viable energy policy. I T N's Alex Thompson went to oil-rich California where the debate — to drill or to conserve, is at its most heated. Point Arguello on the Californian coast. An oil terminal built by Chevron lies quiet and unused. It's completed, it's ready to work, it cost two billion dollars and it's idle. Offshore, three oil platforms in the same state of readiness. At the turn of a valve, all this hardware could bring America one hundred thousand barrels a day of Californian heavy crude, as much as the country used to import from Kuwait. But California blocks any new oil development on environmental grounds. This environmental movement today is really saying to all of us, erm in order to avoid building platforms off the coast of the United States, we are willing to risk sending our sons to the sands of the Middle East to die perhaps for the preservation of a life style, that some of us are unwilling to develop here in our own country. Tell that to the people who live here on the coast in Santa Barbara. They've had oil exploration here for many years on a small scale, and this is the result: under every boulder, a thick coating of waste oil. They've decided they don't want any more oil exploration whatever. Both the beauty and ecological importance of this area of southern California are clear enough and just three months ago, George Bush, a former oil man, banned further oil development here as part of a general moratorium that covered several coastal areas. That was a gesture that took account of the political clout of America's environmentalists. Two hundred miles up the coast, near San Francisco, a conference on energy policy. What if something changes in the meantime, like an oil crisis, like an economic downturn. Because they're concerned about America's oil dependence, senior government officials have come to rub shoulders with the advocates of conservation and alternative power sources. And if you want to see what passed for America's energy policy, you're looking at it. Los Angeles. Huge freeways, cheap petrol, one person per car and no public transport system worth speaking of. Nobody cared and now nobody can even see clearly in Los Angeles where twenty-eight days spent in the city constitute a health hazard, and smog from car exhausts hangs over the L A basin from the San Gabriel mountains to the ocean. Delegates at California's energy conference point to various ways out of this chaos, from general policy to specific action. The Bush administration is now considering national petrol tax to encourage public transport where it exists. The oil crisis of the early seventies provoked a rush of decisions at federal and state level to find clean energy sources, and this is one result; the four thousand windmills that line the ridges of the Atamont hills in central California. There is now enough wind power in the state to light the whole of San Francisco. Tower eight one seven's on line. A computerized control room alters the direction and output of the lines of windmills, and each one is numbered with a figure giving its output in kilowatts. Inland, the Mojave desert now provides solar power integrated into the local grid system. It'll light half a million homes by the end of the year. Across the country, its estimated wind and solar power could meet a third of America's energy needs. The Bush administration has undertaken a national energy review which will report by the end of the year, and that may be the first step towards the national action to end dependence on Gulf oil, and to start what's always eluded this country — an Energy Policy. And that was a review of the week's news from I T N, from London, goodbye. Well now what can do for this man? Oh I went to the,funny. Yes. I meant to I mean she's making an appointment for about two weeks after. Right ah no sign of any damage to any of the bones, erm so it so it's just been the muscles getting tightened up on you. Right what what about the the tablets, did they help? The painkillers, I'm still getting pain a bit and the nurses You're still getting pain? take like hot baths and that. Mhm. That's right. to get rid of the pain. Right. Are you due a line today ? What for? Insurance . Ah eh no I finish on the twenty fifth. You seem to know how it was, the old muscles, it feels like it's pulling on Aye, that's right because of, it's all, they're all very close together Dan. Feels as though it's right through. Keep some of these in the house Dan take them relief. do you want er for the twenty fifth up, Twenty fifth. The twenty fifth of this month. Cos finished That's okay, that's alright, aye, that's okay. Right? Okay Dan? Right, cheerio now. . My first memories of Walsall Airport were when Walsall Flying Club was in being before World War Two. If you look from towards , which was a large house in a clump of trees, at the far side was a pavilion which was the clubhouse, they used to hold air displays and pleasure flights, also they had commercial flights. I've seen them towing across the sky with Beecham's Pills written on them er it was a familiar sight in Walsall at the time, and also sometimes they had a plane sky-writing and they used to write Rinso in smoke in the sky. The club's planes were usually Tiger Moths in the main, and as I remember the main airport building adjacent to the main road, pre war, were building Swallow side-cars for motorbikes. Soon after the war started Helliwells Aircrafters, it was known, started an operation for the repair and rebuilding of aircraft for the RAF. The types which were Boston Fighter Bombers and Harvard Trainers, both were American planes. Peter was the test pilot used to be testing the Harvards over Walsall, and the engines used to make noises like angry wasps which was Walsall people became to know very well. I left school in 1942 and got a job at the airport, which at the times we were living in always something exciting seemed to be happening. Well I remember an Oxford aircraft over-flying the airfield and crashing in blocking the lane and going into the hedge on the other side, into Gingers Yard. Billingham Woolwork we used to get entertainment nearly every lunchtime in the canteen, sometimes it was a film or live acts, comics and singers and one of the workers named Haydon , formed a small band which he call Butch Blood and the Boston Bashers. Who did this entertainment, was it the workers themselves or did they ? No they used to have organized ENSA concerts and er such like and er, when the Americans started arriving in England in large numbers ready for D Day, the temporary placement depot at Lichfield was a dispersal unit for soldiers sent there. They sent their big band for a show and it was a really memorable sound as they had fellas on the way over to join Glen in Europe. An American army sergeant arrived at the airport one day who befriended me and he was in charge of an artillery spotting plane called the Piper Cub which they gave a small corner of the airfield to. He came in one afternoon and started painting black and white stripes round the fuselage and wings, when asked the reason for this he said it was a new allied marking. The next day both he and his plane were gone and with hundreds of planes going over, the next morning D Day had begun. Later in the year, two U S A Thunderbolt Fighters landed after a daylight sortie over France, they were painted in the usual drab green camouflage colour and both had a pink and red glamour girl on the side about twenty feet long, typical of the Yanks. One afternoon a flying fortress which had come off worse on the mission over Germany tried to land at Walsall, which was much too small to take an aircraft of this size, and the girl in the control box had to find, fire a warning vary light and radio to send him off to Castle Bromwich which was much bigger in those days er it was an airport to take an aircraft the size of the Flying Fortress that's about it up until here I've written Oh right. What was your job? What did you do? I was only a lad, I was er a messenger boy on the loading deck and I used to have to go down to at Beskett and fetch parts for the planes and er plates, aluminium plates, to be normalized which was a treatment when they put them into the vats and I had to fetch the films as well, from the house that used to be a warehouse for films over in er in by the beacon, great bar! Films what were those for, what ? They were for the entertainment of the workers in their lunch break er, it wasn't really much of a job but er, I kept applying to go onto the floor to actually work on the aircraft but they, they wouldn't sort of er, I was needed too much in the receiving departments so in the end I left. How would these damaged planes used to arrive at the airport? Did they come by road or ? Well some of them came by road and RAF trucks, the fuselages, and then there were all they started at the top of the airfield in the old flying club pavilion, and then they were er stripped down and stuff was taken off them, checked out, for airworthiness to see whether it was ready to go back on the planes, and then they came down to the back of the top hanger which was then they were all down to the skeleton of the aircraft and they started rebuilding them again like, there were engine shops and the place at the bottom hanger where they used to make the Swallow side-cars was the spraying and where they completed the aircraft. Can you tell me about the buildings that were around the airport? Yes Tell me what fronted the main road first. Yes the they were much the same as they are now but er, of course the one nearest was the er spraying hanger, that's where they used to build the Swallow side-cars, the main office building there's a large hanger with large sliding doors at the back of there which used to house the erm experimental department for the Harvard Aircraft and erm they used to operate the flight gang from there getting the planes ready to go up to be actually tested, and then the next hanger up was very much er starting from scratch and finishing the aircraft structurally you know. They had an in, an in and out shop of where they used to recondition the engines er and er I that's about all er. What sort of runway was it? There were, there was, there wasn't any runway it was just a grass airfield as there was a lot of them in those days erm this, this is why they, they couldn't get any aircraft of any size in there you see, this is why some of them used to overshoot if they got twin engines before the war erm About how many people were employed there would you say at this time? Oh hundreds I would think, all of three hundred people. Were men and women involved in this ? Oh yes oh yes working on the aircraft as well. Mm was that all they actually did during those war years there just repairing the aircraft That's right yes yes cos and putting them back into service? motorcycle side-cars were very much a luxury trade you see. It was totally devoted to war work. Erm they er as airfields had to be protected they build some pillboxes, country pillboxes for the Home Guard at strategic points I was going to ask you about security and also the Home Guard or the army were in the house at the far side of the airport which was called Aldridge Lodge they were very much in there the erm Where there ever any breaches of security? Oh no no, it was really a happy-go-lucky time you, you had to be alive in those days to appreciate it, it, people sort of got together and it, it's a different attitude to life today er much more friendly people there and they, we all worked together we all pulled together to defeat Hitler this, this was the thing in those days. Were women involved in the work there as well? Yes, yes, yes and What sort of things would they have done? Well they, they were er helping the electricians and er but they were er they weren't so technically involved as perhaps they would be today. They were very much sort of in an assistance capi capacity if you can understand. Erm how types of craftsmen were employed there to do things? Well there were electricians there were carpenters, the carpenters were into directly involved with building aircraft but they used to create the engines and make engine stands such things and do maintenance work around. There were engine fitters, electricians, riggers and er course there were sheet metal workers as well working in aluminium and pop rivets er there was er also a government inspection department and a works inspection department and er things and da the Air Ministry had to be very up to scratch you know erm Did they work through the night as well, was it shiftwork there? Not as I remember no funnily enough but they used to have people who, who went out to work at different airports after the planes had gone out they used to have gangs that went out to Perton and er we used to draw equipment from er the maintenance un RAF maintenance unit at Stafford things used to come from there. What did these gangs go out to Perton for, what was that all about? Well after the, the aircraft had actually er left the airport to go, be handed back to the RAF they said sometimes had to be serviced or final adjustments made and that's what they used to go out there for but erm Helliwells was ver it was still, all through the war it was Helliwells aircraft they used to have their own lorries and everything and they used to erm, be under the auspices of the Air Ministry but it was very much a private company. You mention test flights er Yes yes was there just one test pilot or Yeah well there was one main test pilot that's right and other people like, who used to be an instrument gang as well, well I do know this fella Cyril he was a dental mechanic in Walsall before the war and he came in there and he was an instrument mechanic and he used, he used to go up with the test pilot to actually test the instruments in the other compartments in the plane or cockpits just to see how they were reacting under operational conditions. He subsequently er went to work at the Berlick in latter years and, and this man was just sweeping-up at the Berlick and I couldn't believe it cos he was so high up in the technology in the war and he'd be a dental mechanic and he'd come down to just being a sweeper-up, and he used to show me the pay packets he'd got in the war and you know it was fantastic money even, even by today's standards this is going back fifteen years What did he used to earn and how did it compare with ? Well he showed me packets thirty five and forty pounds a week which then those days was utterly fantastic money. And what would an ordinary person have been earning at Helliwells? Well in the war five pounds a week was extraordinary money, cos they used to say a fella had got a good job if he was getting five pounds a week in those days, so that when I started work first I, I was getting fifteen shillings a week, so you can understand that seventy five pence today, at fourteen. I went to the Bluecoat School in Walsall and they erm they used to run a A T C wing in there which later to belonged to and they they brought this Hawker Demon in, which was a plane into the playground for the instruction of the A T C fellas and the kids all ripped the canvas off it for souvenirs and it was down to a skeleton in no time You mentioned that you used to have to go to Helliwells down at Beskett Beskett yeah yeah erm what was the set-up there? They, they used to build wings for the, they had er all pop riveters and they used to b build wings for the planes that finally came up to the airport down there and erm it was very much a structural set-up as I say I used to have to take plates down there from the airport to be normalized, it was er a sort of softening treatment for aluminium and made them easier to shape and rivet them onto the main fuselage, but they, they used to make Harvard wings and cowls, engine cowls, for the Bostons and Havocs they weren't the one type of Boston was a fighter bomber and another one it had the front navigator's position cut out and they used to have a search light put in there which they used to call Turbin lights and they were for use of coastal command of the RAF first searchlighting for submarines, looking for submarines, the er the Harvards were very much trained as some of them came in from the Navy they were used for training landing of pilots on aircraft carriers, and they had hooks underneath you know the er they were a very good trainer they were still used today, but when we used to go and see films at the pictures they used to use them a lot as Japanese aircraft because they looked alike, and they used to use them as zeros in the American films these Harvard trainers, er and but like as I said they had a experimental department at Helliwells and they used to try out various things to see if they could improve on the structure or the instrumentation things like that Were there any parts of er of the complex that were out of bounds sort of top secret work going on or anything like that? Well no not really because erm it, it was a private company as you can understand er, I can I can't really explain it everyone seemed to be pulling together you know that was the last thing you thought of, fifth columnists, things like that although it was they used to er, every now and again they used to send government national service officers round to look at the personnel and the structure of the working and if they thought anybody was superfluous to requirements they'd get the papers soon after to go into the army or the services yeah, yeah, that is true and that happened, used to happen in factories all round the area, it was called the Essential Works Order. Was there erm a canteen there or facilities for you? Yes, yes that's where they used to have the shows in the lunchtime they had very good er food arrangements and facilities. We used to go up there for our breaks as well morning and afternoon and they used to have dances sometimes in the evening. What was the food like? Cos it was sort of rationing at that time. That's right yes oh we used to get sausages with bread in it and potatoes mainly you know, greens and things like that were the staple diet but they, they used to get rations apart from people's personal rations being on war work if you can understand. So you were well looked after. Oh yes yes very much so. You mentioned er you had a friend that worked at the, the bomb dump at Lindley. That's right Can you tell me anything about that? It, well nothing really in depth but there was erm something else I was going to tell you. As I had to go to Beskett this young woman had not long been married and she always used to ask me to call at her house in Palfrey, cos I used to go on a bike not in a van, on a carrier bike, she used to ask me to call at her house in Palfrey to see if there were any mail from her husband and he was, there sometimes was sometimes there wasn't nothing you know that he'd written and er one day I'd got back and er she was all in tears and er he, he had been killed in France and I was glad I didn't have to be the harbinger of the times you know she still lives in Palfrey now Mrs yeah. This, this bomb dump it was a RAF place was it? Yes, yes, yeah, but they did have civilians working there but I don't know where they used to ferry the bombs out to but I do believe they used to carry detonators and everything down there you know. They were just stored in the caverns That's right yeah, yeah, yeah but er cos I remember the caverns from before the war when I was in the Cubs. I was in the central Cubs and we used to go up there to lime pits and round Lingley Woods you know on days out tracking and all that sort of thing. Did you ever go down the caverns? No, no I've never been down and er they've always been full of water whenever I've been up around there. Did they have problems with keeping the water out during the time they were storing the Well as I understand they must have had pumps down there or something to or something to keep them dry because er Were you in any sort of A R P unit or anything like that during the war years? Er I, I was a messenger for a time for the er, we lived in Lane and I was a messenger for a time with the erm A R P headquarters in Drive, now when my uncle got married and he had two children and I'd, they were issuing gas masks and I had to go down and fetch a gas mask for his daughter and they were great big ones that used to envelope the whole babies with a bellows on the side that the mothers used to have to pump when they were in them, thank goodness we never had to use them and erm What sort of a set-up was it in Lane the A R P? Oh Drive Drive, sorry. Well it was a large double-fronted house and it was sand-bagged all round and there were tables and to er, administer, you know, wardens in the unevent of air raids which they used to do and they used to patrol the streets looking for lights to see if pe my nan actually got fined once cos she, she event inadvertently went into a room and put the light on and forgot she'd left the curtains open and an air raid warden happened to be around she, she got hauled into court and fined five pounds for that, er she er I, I once I was just thinking the other day just telling a friend of mine, they had an actual practice air raid once and in some old buildings in the Burchells and we as kids had to go and lie in there and wait till we'd got a tag on and what would happen to us a label and they took us to the first aid post in, an ambulance came and picked us up on a stretcher and took us to the first aid post in Road. We used to have dress rehearsal, some, I think I got mustard gas burns as well I was supposed to have on my arm er Did this er, going back to Helliwells again, repairing of the aircraft, did that cease when the war finished or did it continue for a time afterwards? It, it, it just went on for a lit a short time afterwards but er, but when the war ended course things, some things changed pretty rapidly as you can appreciate but, but by this time I, I was working for Ellwells then on long distance transport and we used to have to go and fetch tractors or bulldozers that had got armour plating on from Dagenham docks and bring them up here and start selling them to civic contractors and the, the Americans were selling a lot of equipment as well at end of the war, and I saw money made overnight like, people were buying the lorries and putting them on the road you know for work and transport firms and all that and they were getting some of them for next to nothing So Helliwells were involved in this? Not really no, I was working for another firm by this time. We, I used to move around a lot on those days as you could do really speaking because I wasn't old enough to be under the Essential Works Order you see, and er I was by the time I went into the army it was 1946 so er the war was over. Yeah tell me the sequence of your jobs then, you started off you were a messenger at Helliwells and then what did you do? Helliwells yeah Yes then what did you do after that? Well I went to, erm they wouldn't let me go to work on the aircraft so I left and I went to work and the Walsall Electric Company, it was within Walsall and I was there when V E day happened and er a pal of mine said he knew where I could get this job and oh it was travelling about which I enjoyed and er I, I went then to work for Elwells I was there until I went in the army, but they were very much heavy transport and in those days the opencast mining started happening as well and we were taking diggers about bulldozers and tractors, scrapers for the opencast mining and I remember, in the bad winter of forty-seven, they, they took up a big part of Park, trees and everything and they never found a bit of coal and yet when started levelling off at Darleston, for Bentley Garden Village as it was then called, er they were getting coal out and people were going up with prams, barrows and everything and fetching it all out it was only being levelled for building work, and fetching coal, natural coal off Bentley Common the erm I've wandering off away from the airport a bit haven't I? Tell me about V E day. Yes, I was working at Walsall airport er Walsall electrics, sorry, at the time and er I've been out to the pictures I, with a couple of friends and er I got home this particular evening and I put the late night dance music on on the radio and they, they interrupted the programme to tell us that er Germany had accepted unconditional surrender and the war was over. Well, my gran had told me that she'd gone down to see her friends who'd get the Brown Lion after them by this time and er I decided to go down and tell them as I could see if they hadn't got the radio on they wouldn't have known so as I walked from Burchells down Road I could see doors throwing open lights were coming on, people were coming out in the street and dancing and I got round down to the Brown Lion and it was all in darkness, and I rang the bell on the side door and I heard a few bumps and bangs and Mr who'd kept it then came to the door, and I said do you know the war's over and er he said oh no come on in that's w now his son was a prisoner of war and they had been, he'd continually tried to escape so much that he had his photograph taken in the Sunday paper, the, the Germans had had kept chaining him to the wall and other prisoners, other soldiers had got these photographs of him and smuggled them out and got them back to England, to the nearest papers, and er he he'd said to my nan cos he knew she'd always worked behind the bar, he said will you serve if I open the pub now, which was about eleven o'clock at night and she said yes of course, and the they opened the Brown Lion at about eleven o'clock at night in next to no time the place was full of people drinking, celebrating and of course the next day was really it. I remember going down to the bridge in Walsall and a sailor climbed the old clock and tied his collar around it and a soldier got up and put his hat on and an airman got up and put his tie with a red, white and blue rosette on it, around the arms of the old clock and people were loving and kissing everywhere, and oh it was really you had to be alive to appreciate it. After, after the years of hardship and loss and then ev everything came as a relief, course we were still at war with the Japanese and people were still in Burma, our soldiers were still in Burma fighting the Japanese, but having said that the main issue was over and it wasn't long after the Americans dropped the atomic bomb and of course, I always thought they had to really or else the Japanese would still be fighting now the er they had special dances in the Town Hall for the V E Day and the Americans who did a a jitterbug contest and er I always remember my friend and his sister, who was English, they actually won it against the Yanks he er Did the Americans have a lot to do with Walsall ? Oh yes, yes, they even had like they used to have savings' weeks er salute the soldier week, they used to have promotions for National Savings you see and we used to get so much money or where they had a bid thermometer on the car park in Street which is now the extension of the Gala Baths and they used to show how much savings had been put in they used to have targets for people, to put the National Savings in, they used to have an Anglo-American friendship week. What was that exactly? Well they used to ask you to invite the e actually invite the American soldiers into your homes and my friend in Chuckery a couple of years ago, I was visiting him one Sunday lunch and a knock came to his door and he went and it was a guy who came over to see, his mum is now dead, but he, he come over he remembered him from the war. He was stationed in an old chapel in Chuckery because the Americans once they'd started they were putting them everywhere or anywhere they could just get to be with them before V Day they were even in little chapels, churches, outhouses anywhere they could possibly and there were guns and bits of trucks on every spot of land where they could get them the er, I'm getting out of context I was just thinking about a tank, a First World War tank that they used to have those as well in the field gun in the er arboretum which were disappeared soon after the war they went for scrap and they came and they used, people used to have a lot of wrought iron railings as well they took those as well they came along with burners and went off to the war effort, but er like I say the Americans and of course as kids they were very generous with kids and we absolutely loved them. They used to give us gum and sweets everything and the, they sometimes, the military police they used to come down town and they'd be after deserters from Lichfield and Is that where the Americans were stationed? That's right the tenth replacement depot in Lichfield and they used to come round to Walsall looking for absentees and deserters and they there was actually a shooting match in Street the MPs started firing the guns at these fellas who'd gone absent without leave, and, but as I understand I remember at the time there was a lot of racism in America then and they, they picked these coloured fellas up and apparently the C O at Lichfield was very much a southern colonel and he was a racist and they used to chain these coloured guys up behind the trucks and make them walk all the way back to Lichfield behind the trucks driving the trucks at walking pace and I understand there was a, a salver, a commemorative salver in the Town Hall to be presented to him, and some an MP in the Council he were looking for this colonel, but as I understand he was court-martialled after the war for racism and so I don't think he'd be wanting, wanted to be connected with Walsall any more, so but this was What was his name do you remember it? Colonel with a K the this band, they used to, that they had from the tenth replacement depot used to come down and play at the Town Hall, and they they like I said before they were fellas on the way to join Glen the absolute ultimate musicians of America and it was why I'm still today erm I've got a big collection of jazz records and have always been interested in the big band sound. It must have been quite exciting to hear them. Oh yes it was, very much so. They were brilliant times to live in he then me uncle Ed come on leave, from France, yeah I had a look at his rifle he used to bring all his equipment cos they didn't know if the units had moved when they got back and if they used to be lucky enough to get a leave, they used to have to bring all their equipment with them you see and he used to bring his rifle, everything on leave, and I, I always remember asking him why he hadn't, if he'd killed any Germans, why he hadn't got any notches on his rifle he erm Do you rec turning back to Helliwells again jumping about a bit Yes erm when did they stop doing work on aircraft there, do you recall about what year that would be? I can't, I can't remember precisely even so I think it, it, it's Walsall's loss that they haven't got an airport any more, it, it's purely but erm they, they did have a lot of s divided up into a lot of sports fields at one time didn't they but the people who've, is it the M E B who control those buildings now? I don't know it was TI wasn't it at one time. That that's right yes it was yeah and the airfield was divided up into football pitches and such like but er Did it continue as a sort of civilian airfield after the war? Oh no, no, no, not at all af after the war work it, it just seemed to er no one ever seemed to get any be interested in flying as they were pre-war then, or they probably that they had cars and they could get about more you know to other outlying places like Pentiford in Wolverhampton So that flying club that you mentioned earlier on just finished ? Oh yes when the war started yes, you, you see the people would have been called up into the forces anyway people young enough to fly, who, who had an interest, because er one of the air displays I remember very much a tomboy as she was she they used to give pleasure flights and she had defied this pilot to take her up and make her sick, and he was took her up there looping rolling and everything and er Do you recall the incident when Henry crashed there? No, not precisely I, I was a bit too young then, I, I remember all the songs about her Amy wonderful Amy and all those and oh and when she married Jim I was very much in but I couldn't actually say I remembered her crashing at Walsall The erm you could, yeah, when I came home from work one Monday afternoon my nan said this eighty eight had gone over very low, and we, we heard that they'd dropped this landmine this same aircraft had dropped this landmine that had gone under the gas holder at the gas works, in Road and the, they had some rescue workers from the A R P to get it out they never even bothered calling for the Royal Engineers, but the situation was that landmines used to come down on parachutes, and they used to slide into places which were inaccessible but anyway, they relied on the local Walsall A R P to get them out. The other time I remember was when William the chromium platers in Street ye got bombed, with a high explosive bomb, but there was, there was no one hurt that I remember, and then the Halleys the tent people had an incendiary bombs and got burnt out, at the same night that they dropped some incendiary bombs on the bus depot in Road, they, they were a lot of work for the fire brigade, but comparatively speaking with, with Birmingham I think Walsall got off very lightly as regards the bombing, as there was no heavy industry around here. I do believe there were, there was a high explosive bomb but I think it was just jettisoned to as you wanted to get back home the German pilot he, he landed somewhere up Bluebell Wood but it just exploded and no one was hurt. Where was that Bluebell Wood? At, at the back of the Three Crowns where that is now, I don't know whether if it was a bomb meant for the airport, I can't think that it was though it was a bit far away for that. Did they have any erm raids that were that you'd think were directed towards the airport at all, were there any incidents of this kind? No, no it was very much a green field area, and I think if they'd have wanted to get bomb anywhere they'd have been directed at Castle Bromwich, which were very much they were building Lancasters and Sterlings and they were very much the heart of the British bomber industry. We were only small fry really at Walsall airport. About how many erm planes would they have in during the week to repair, what was the, the turnover? Oh it, it wasn't there seemed to be a long time you know before they turned one out to make, because it was a very long process rebuilding an aircraft,es especially as the situation was at Walsall. I, I think it was only a drop in the ocean really towards the national effort, but, but I remember erm at Darlaston, they used to build tanks over there and they, they used to pay us visits in sometimes they'd send some of their men over in the tanks to give us a pep talk about the war effort and all that but er, they used to do things like that then to gee you up erm How many aircraft were they capable of working on at the same time? Oh they, they used to have several going through the hangers at one time they erm they probably had about six Harvards, and about nine Bostons which were, they were bigger than Blenning Bombers, er were these Bostons and Harvards they er quite a twin engine quite a wide wingspan and quite heavy for what they were, but as they were stripped down in, in the top hanger, and like I say a lot of stuff was salvaged from them, which was still good as they went out reconditioned at the other end. There were sometimes they, they came, if they'd been in action and er, the people had actually found blood and parts of the uniforms in the air gunner's compartment at the back, and the, the fella, the navigator u and bomb aimer used to be in the nose, they hadn't got much of a chance if they came down in there because they were right cut off from the rest of the aircraft so, but it was virtually a suicide position in the nose of the Bostons. They yeah we used to call in Tex and he, he couldn't believe that there were old people living in Walsall at the time in this country the size of England, and people living in Walsall that had never seen the sea in their lives, and this guy coming from America couldn't believe this. He, he was a real friendly guy and like I say he never said cheerio before he went, but one day he just painted his aircraft up with the D-day landing signs which we didn't know at the time and the next day he was gone of course it was very much top secret that was but the town just emptied of all Americans it was like a ghost town after them but it had been previously. It was like walking into Chicago at times in Walsall and the snowdrops as they used to call their military police with the white steel helmets on they used to ride around in jeeps. I first started to go when they were getting promotion to the second division the last few matches in the third division. When was that about, what year would that be? That would be about sixty, sixty one as I see, and er they were the last match of the season virtually was that they gained promotion on was Shrewsbury, which was at the game meadow and Arthur , the player manager who was a prolific goal scorer in his day, was playing at the time and er nobody expected Walsall to win but they ran out two-one winners and all down the A five that night all the pubs were full coming back with everyone celebrating, so erm, after then they had a civic dinner at the Town Hall for the players and they did a big flower display in the arboretum all set out in flowers the club badge and congratulation lads on winning promotion, and this when they kicked off the following season, in the second division, prior to that they played a friendly match against Leicester and Gordon was in goal and I took my boy with me Tim, who was only a toddler at the time, and he, I stood him on the old archway where the players used to run out, but the first league match was against Sunderland and Brian , actually played for Sunderland as centre forward and er Walsall ran out four-three winners in the end Tony , who was Walsall inside left got a hat trick and I believe Tommy , got the other goal and Brian scored for Sunderland, then the er we went on to the, the first away match which was at Derby County, and Walsall won that three-one. I think it was the impetus of them getting promoted and the enthusiasm the er then the next home match was against Newcastle which Walsall played to a packed house. There were twenty five thousand, I, I wouldn't like to see twenty five thousand on that ground again, because I, I used to smoke at the time and we were packed that tight in the ground I couldn't even get my hands down to my pockets to get a cigarette out, so the erm after the first few games they started to draw at home and then they seemed to lose the impetus and that they still held a good position in the league, but the following season Liverpool were in the second division at the time, and I, I went to that match and Walsall scored first through Colin and er, they went on to beat us six-one in the end. Can't tell you how long a journey it was back in the fog from Liverpool that day, and then when we were relegated back again to the third division it was on the last match of the season against Charlton, and the heavens opened and a big thunder storm and it just flooded the pitch and the referee just called the match off and they had to play it again the following Friday and Charlton ran out two-one winners and Walsall finished with nine fit men and still that's the football I suppose. Can you tell me something about the crowd itself, erm did particular age groups tend to stand together around the ground or were the young Oh oh oh not really, but it was when this chanting came in that the young fellas seemed to like gangs in the crowd and this when all the trouble started When would that have been about this were they in the second division then or Oh no no it would be ten fifteen years ago I think. The erm, yes these and it started to be like warfare more than a game you know at that stage but hopefully now we're getting back to some sort of sanity with the membership cards you know, because we, the crowd is segregated from the away supporters now and that's cos if Walsall go into the second division again they'll have to spend so much I believe on the ground to cage the away supporters in which they don't have to do in the third division. I was just discussing this last night, but they used to be more friendly atmospheres, even with the away supporters years ago you know it was but things go full circle in the end and hopefully like I say we're getting back to some sort of sanity now. Have you ever felt personally unsafe in the crowd? O only that night against Newcastle when they were, they were packed tight you know. It was just I, I went down they played Liverpool in the cup about that era, and the, the wall was pushed down at the Street end but erm the people just spilled on the pitch and I don't think anyone was really hurt, this happened when they played er Liverpool in the cup a couple of years ago the wall was pushed down at the other end on that occasion, but er there was just one, one person hurt but there wasn't anybody very seriously injured as I understand Were there any, were there any special chants or songs that the Walsall crowd used to put across Well, well they did try to get a song going once sponsored by the club, it was sung by St Matthews' choir would you believe, but it, it didn't seem to take off, the football supporters seemed to take very much to their own sort of songs, and they, they'd pick up songs and chants from other grounds now like the Liverpool song You'll Never Walk Alone, and they used to sing Away the Lads they used to pick that up from the Newcastle supporters and and Was there anything that was specifically Walsall chants Not that I can recall no the erm Were there any players that the crowds used to pick on especially in any way? No but Urging them on or putting them down. Well Tony , was who manager at the associated now, er he was very a very popular player, he was a goal scorer on one occasion, they played an away match at Swindon and he scored a goal and the goalkeeper got sent off a John so Tony went in goal and he saved a penalty later in the match, but he was a very popular player he was a a good goal scorer then there was Colin he, he had one of the hardest shots in the league you know, I've, I've seen the goalkeeper shrug his shoulders at, at defenders and say well how do you stop those, they used to call him Cannonball at one time, and er there was Tommy he had his collarbone broken and he never played again after, but he was a great centre forward he used to make a lot of space for the other forwards you know. Course when Walsall were promoted, they hadn't got into the European systems then it was very much the old five forwards three halfbacks two fullbacks and a goalkeeper in those days, the, the laundry was there, in those days when they were in the second division. That was laundry? That's right yes and they used to say that the stack was full of footballs been put up there by p opposing defenders. When the, the laundry was knocked down it seemed to be the end of an era that er, it didn't seem to be like park much longer. When did they knock that down? Oh, it was, that would be the late sixties I would think when they were in the erm third division. And how did they use that extra area, what did they do with the ? Well that that is now accommodation for away supporters down at there is no cover over it as yet, there were plans to make a covered stand of it but er they haven't it has been covered over and that's where the away supporters still stand to this day and a little bit around the corner at the bottom end, at the railway end as they call it now, not the laundry end. What about the Hilary Street end is that still open ? That, that's open to the general public but where I stand you have to have a membership card to go in there now, and er you pay two pound before the season started and er local traders give you a discount and things erm it's just one way of er segregating the supporters if you like, but there doesn't seem to be so much trouble since they've done this, but at the same time there doesn't seem to be as much atmosphere How do you mean in there. atmosphere, what's gone? Well all the support comes from one side of the ground, I mean when they score all the shouting comes from one side of the ground now and when Walsall scored all the shouting seems to come from the Street end and the erm So before it was erm all the way around the pitch, the response. That's right, yes, yes. What about away matches? Do they get much following from their supporters? Oh yes quite so and if they're doing well they really, local people really get behind them, but they, they've prom in previous seasons they they've promised so much and then fell away at the end that people have got a bit disillusioned and discontented so that, but like last year when they were doing well in the cup they erm at Watford I mean loads of people went to see them. My son and daughter-in-law went down. They made a four all draw and I think they've still got the video now on television of the match. How do most people go to away matches? Do they make their own way ? Their own transport and they do, do run coaches and er there are rail British Rail run the service as well as a rule. I don't think they've had a lot of trouble really speaking with Walsall supporters over the years because they seem to be er go to support the club not to fight and er What about home erm away teams coming to Walsall I mean is there ever any trouble as they arrive in the town? Well not any more. The last trouble I remember was when they played Birmingham City in the Cup last season. They reckon arrests were made down but they were down at Beskett Station and they made a couple inside the ground, but I think they were just people running on the pitch you know, they were over enthusiastic. Has there ever been any trouble down in the Pleck itself on match days? Well I, I As in pubs I have seen away supporters being chased up the road into Pleck Park and but erm I think basically a lot of the trouble used to be caused by drink and now they don't have any drink in the ground they er they, they seem to have cracked that one. Were there any teams that used to come and play at Walsall that were notorious in any way? Oh oh yes very much so they were Millwall and erm there were notably Millwall. Why, I mean what was the problem with them? Well they were noted even when cos Jim went down there a few, few times he used to have chaps running around the ground with chains and knives and all that sort of thing, but it's in the Dockland area of London Millwall. They used to be a real rough lot as I believe they are still now they've still got a name today they What about Port Vale I've heard people say they used to be a hard team to play. Yes but they never seem to have got a lot down at Walsall. To Tony was telling me that er he was asked that Walsall needed the money so he was asked to be transferred to Port Vale, which he did but er I think he was past his best and he, he'd came down back here and played a couple of times with Port Vale, and er but erm like I say he was past his best. He was a, got a record number of goals for Walsall in the season, it's never been broken to this day erm. Colin broke, I think he equalled a record for a leftwinger as well scoring goals we had er later on we had Bob came from Coventry, Coventry City. He played in goal for several years for Walsall. Where did people park their cars and all that when they go to the matches ? Round in Crescent and er the people make allowances often they make announcements in the ground of they're blocking somebody's entrance and will they go and move the cars out and I recall many years ago a lot of people used to go on bicycles and they used to leave them in the front of those houses that are just in . That, that's right yeah . The, the people used to charge them so much haven't they for parking the cycles yes. I, I used to walk it there when I went there,e even from Lane I never used to get on the bus I, I used to walk it down there cos we used to go down by the side of, of the old Street cemetery you know over by the gas works and up Street the erm What about the directors and managers? Oh oh yes Henry who was the chairman of the day then. When was that? In now I was reading about him pretty recently Never mind. Oh I, I can't put the year Just approximately was this in the nineteen sixties? Yeah, yeah, yeah and then erm the family took over. The ? The took over yes then and they would And what influence did they have on the Walsall Football Club? Well they, they seemed to be putting some finance in, but er it went through a bit of a flat spot and then the sold out I, I'm sorry I'm stuttering and all this but I haven't done my research you know and it, it's, it's tough going. Er . What sort of influence did the directors and managers have with choosing the team? Well the Bill was, who was the manager in those days was very much the manager, and there was one of the directors used to play for the Villa, and he used to more or less look after the playing side which the rest of the directors never seemed to interfere with, they, they left the management up to the manager the selection of the team, Bill and the trainer when they were in the second division was Arthur who's manager of Derby County now, he had the, I believe he had a sad time when he was at Walsall he, he lost his wife in a car accident and What about the ground itself? Was it a good ground to play on? Well they, they had to do the, it hadn't used to have very good drainage and far more of a slope, it, it's far more level today than it used to be, it used to have a great slope towards the long end which was considered an advantage to Walsall and the water used to gather, but I believe the improved the drainage and had pipes put under which it, it doesn't seem to gather water so much now down at the railway end. The since Terry took over the ground everything's been refurbished and new crush rails put up you know, and he seems to have made it a good ground. Quite, quite frankly I, I can't see Walsall moving, because it seems to have been money wasted if they've made Fellas Park good and then they move somewhere else. So I wouldn't like to see any property developers take it, the club on because I think they'd be purely after the ground, I, I'd feel much better if the consortium with Ray at the head took it over because they are genuinely interested in Walsall and the Walsall people. You said earlier that you go to reserve matches as well. I, I did do years gone by yes and they, they did move into the football combination at one time, because it was considered that the Midland Intermediate League was too big a jump for young men into the first team and the difference was so vast in the type of football that Walsall second team they u only playing young fellas, and they used to win seven and eight goal margins every week you know, but then they moved up into combination that was a better standard of football, but latter years economy drives and everything they came back out of the combination reverted to the Midland Intermediate again which I believe there are two phases of that no one for s older players and the other one strictly for youth players I was going to ask you if they'd got a youth team? Yes, yes, they're out of the youth cup now as I understand. I, I can't remember who knocked them out but erm they are out of that competition. Is the ground ever used for anything else apart from? No, no, it, it got oh er erm for other some local teams if have a final it's sometimes played down there. What sort of teams? In, in the days would they be? Of the er regime I saw erm Moscow, Moscow Dynamo came over and played Walsall in a friendly match yes erm Was there a good crowd for that one? Oh yes very good. There was about ten to fifteen thousand, which the limit on the, the ground limit today is about seventeen to eighteen as I can understand. And is it the same size ground as the match when there was twenty five thousand in you say you were a bit bothered about it in fact? Virtually but the laundry was there then there, there wasn't so much room then you see. Because of all those extra people in there? Because there was no one at the bottom end, but they've, they've got all those extra people in it, it was really frightening when I look back, but the, the reason there could have been, there were er nineteen thousand at the Sunderland match but it was an all ticket game so they restricted the crowds somewhat. Have Walsall always played in the same colours as long as you've been supporting them? Yeah they, they've played in red and white, red, white, red shirts white shorts, but they, they used to play in claret and blue I can remember seeing them in claret and blue when I was a small boy but erm What used to go to the matches when you were a lad? Whenever I could afford it you know, but erm, there wasn't so much money in those days I can't remember exactly how much we, we used to get in for coppers you know. Did your wife go to the matches with you? She has been a couple of times but er when we were bringing up the family course she couldn't reasonably go with me every week and er, but she had used to be er a good supporter when she was a girl, she used to go with her father in those days my son's been with me, cos I took him las well he took me last night with his wife I went in their car . Are there a lot of women supporters? Yes, yes, quite a good few I would think. Do they make themselves heard in the crowd as well? Oh yes, yes, if er they don't like the referee they'll let him know it some of the decisions Do you think the town supports the club enough? Well, not really but they have been disillusioned over the years they've promised so much and then they've never seemed seemed to get anywhere but I think, I honestly think they would, people would get behind them, if they could see they were going somewhere I mean like this season they seem to have fallen away yet again. Why do you think the reason for this is? Well they've wanted a mid-field player and a good striker, now people well write letters to local press informing them of this, but they don't seem to be prepared to do this, they, the managers want to do their own thing as far as I can see they think the people on the terraces don't know anything, but Jim and I were saying last night they wanted a mid-field player for ages now all this season, a ball winner, they haven't had one since Willie used to play and Is it lack of funds? Can they afford to buy a good player? Well, well they've just sold a player to Leicester for eighty five thousand and they, they bought a fella from Port Vale on a free transfer, well he's a Richard they've bought him back again, only with a, all due respect but er now he's got he's playing very well with Leicester now, and he's, he's scored two goals and made one the other Saturday, and, and everyone, every match since he's been there every time he's played. So I can't see that it's justified you keep letting your best players go people do get illusioned and people aren't fools, they're gonna stop away aren't they if they thinking they're not doing anything to get going anywhere. Is it a dedicated core of supporters that go ? Oh yes very much so very much so there always has been, yeah they used to call them the faithful four thousand at one time. They erm and, and some of the characters they in days gone by they used to dress up in costume if they were doing well in the Cup and have er a pole with a model of the F A Cup on Walsall's colours and they used to dress up in red and white suits claret and blue suits when they played in those colours yeah. But did they used to walk round the ground like that? Yeah and they used to have a man dressed up as Charlie Chaplin and he used to do his antics on the pitch before the players came out yeah. Who was he, was he local? Erm my nan remembers him, was it somebody called , no no he was another character I think he sold newspapers, but erm I do, I do remember him er They've always erm tried to get some entertainment on the pitch though prior to the matches to try and make it a family thing you know, I, I think Watford are the best club for that you know, because they, the supporters seem to take all the family along, as my son said when they went down there to the Cup replay they are very much a family sort, they don't get a lot of trouble at Watford either. Are there a lot of families that follow Walsall in the same way? Well I, I think after this er people haven't appreciated yet that they've, the grounds have become a bit safer than they were the hooligan element seemed to be taking over, they have er closed circuit television now, at Walsall, so they can get to the hot spot of any trouble and er they erm the ground So a lot of people have been put off have they do you think Y oh yes very much so their families down? Cos when I, I used to take Tim, it used to be very safe then, the only danger we seemed to be in in those days was catching cold. I took Tim to the match one Easter Monday they played Luton in league match, and Ted played, the old Ipswich player, and we go absolutely, it rained, hailed, blew, and we got home soaked to the skin you know, and er it seems to make you feel better if they win you know, but if you sort of put up with those sort of things and they, they lose it's makes you feel right down in the dumps, but when they get promoted like they did last time it's remarkable, it's been remarked about this aspect, that people in local industry seem to work harder, and it seems to be a boost in general local traders make shop window displays and it seems to be a boost to the town in general and give a lift to the town if you like What about other crowd noises are the people who take rattles and No they've been banned from taking them in in case they clobbered anyone with them you see oh they were banned some time ago, as were flags they used to carry flags at one time and rattles, but er they don't let you take anything in. As, as a matter of fact, my son you know those di things you have like you have for the television like a switch box? Oh a remote control Re remote control yes, well my son has one of those he has an electric garage door on his house, and a copper frisked him before he went in last season cos he, he's a younger bloke and er he said what's this and he pulled it out of his pocket, he said it's to open my garage door with he said what do you think it is a death ray or something yeah. Are there any refreshments available at the ground? Yeah well they don't sell er drink any more, not alcoholic drink but there are, there are tea, pies and those sort of things available. Who runs that? Is it part of the supporters club? Yeah it is now, yeah they used to have private caterers at one time but I believe it's, it's part of the club now and the profit making concern. Do they sell scarves and that sort of thing? Oh yes yeah outside yes and old programmes they sell at away matches, badges, season tickets as you might understand,but they, they are going to have a good day in April on the centenary day because they have it getting all the old players Tony says he, he's been invited to attend as well and Gilbert I believe will be going and erm It should be a good day. Yeah yeah a good Da Dave manages Doncaster now he's an ex manager of Walsall as well We lived at the Brown Lion at the time and er, I, I was out the front on the Saturday evening and I er manager's just been to fetch his Sunday joint from the local butchers and he shouted across the road to his pal how have they got on, cos there was no radio in those days, and er he says they've won two nil and the man dropped his meat in front of him and dribbled it all the way down the road, it was such excitement it was of course all people over the moon. That's what the country was it was always to be remembered feat a giant killing match of all time. People still talk about when they beat the Arsenal as though it was only last season almost don't they? Yes, yes. I don't think it will ever be forgotten. No no no well it's always it was then like a team of pygmies beating Liverpool today that's what it ranks with. Were there much celebrating that night? Oh yes yes er all the pubs were full and And what about the team when they came back? Well it was at Walsall. Oh it was at Walsall. Yes and it was at Walsall. They, they'd beat Arsenal in more recent years in erm in the Milk Cup at Arsenal, that was very exciting a few years ago. Did you go to that match? No my son went but I didn't go. Mr , do have a seat. What can I do for you this morning? Well I seem to have a sore throat I can't get rid of. I've had it three week, I've got bad breath and it's all like coming down here and in my ear. But the thing that concerned me, my little lad's had tonsillitis three times on the trot. And I'm wondering whether it's I'm giving it to him, to him or what. I don't know whether I am or not. Is he giving it to you, or are you giving it him. I don't know but he can't shake it off. He's had antibiotics right, three times, and he's still got it. Have a quick look at your right ear, your left one looks fine. What job do you do? Er well I'm, I'm not working at the moment, cos I've hurt my back. Oh right. I've got arthritis of hips and You haven't been down drains or anything like that of late? No. No. Stick your tongue out. Say ah. Ah. Still can't see much. You smoke? No. Any false teeth? No. right. Open mouth for me. Say ah. Ah. Yes, very nasty looking. Okay, let's have a quick look around the rest of your mouth. Would you breathe out for me. Yeah. Breath is fine. It's usually in the morning when it's really Yeah. really s I've been to dental hygiene cos I thought Yeah. it were my teeth, but she says No. you've got no problem there. No, I suspect what's happening is the, the stuff that's oozing out of your tonsils is what you're tasting, and Yeah. is what is making the horrible taste. So your breath is fine, your teeth are fine, your gums are fine, your tongue's fine, but your tonsils look very unhealthy, they really do look nasty. And you can see little beads of pus oozing out. I think you've got a really nasty infection down there. Yeah. Okay. coming under Yeah. the armpit. You know Yeah. and round Yeah. here, I don't whether Yeah. any? Yeah, the inflammation will often spread down here and make you feel grotty. Yeah. Now you rea fo w with a story like this you really need a erm a, a decent does of antibiotics and given the of the unpleasant taste and the pus you can see, ordinary penicillin probably won't do the trick, so we need to use something with a bit more oomph Yeah. than that. And that's what I suggest we do. You're not allergic to anything you know of are you? No. Okay. Do you pay for your prescriptions? Yeah. Right. And antiseptic mouthwash of some sort might be a good idea. Well I've been using that what you buy from Oh good, yeah. Keep going, keep going, gargle. chemist and I've also had a throat spray. Yeah. Gargling will help, just to sort of clean out any gunge that's accumulating. That's it, that's the reason for using it. You won't actually make the tonsils better any quicker, but it will help to prevent some of the taste and the gunge. Yeah. This is a penicillin antibiotic. It's been sort of turbo charged Yeah. by something extra with it. Th one three times a day, for seven days. You can take it with food, after food, between meals, makes no odds. Y you can take Yeah. paracetamol, if you're getting hot and achy. Yeah. You can erm yeah. You can still drink alcohol if you want to, it doesn't interfere with anything, okay. Yeah. The side effects of penicillin, the commonest one is loose motion. So if your bowels go a bit loose, don't be Yeah. too concerned. But I'd very surprised if that doesn't do the trick. If it's not settling, then we should do some blood tests and a throat swab, but it's bit late to do those today I'm afraid. Yeah. Okay? Yeah. And hopefully that'll do the trick. And if your son isn't settling down then we may need to have another look at him, and run some tests on him. doctor and he's still with my wife you see. Oh I see well sending him to a throat specialist because Yeah. he's had it Oh. I see. like a month now he's had it. Yeah, that's a long time. It implies there's something more to it, more to it than just a standard bug I must say. And if I come down with a sore throat now, I'll know who to blame. Yeah . I've got a, a spot here. Yeah. I've, I've got to ask you to have a look at it, Yeah. my wife says she's seen a programme on telly. I don't think it's owt anyway, but Yeah. I'll show you anyway. Yeah It's just there look I've had it about three years and it has bled a couple of times. Mm, that looks like an innocent little er I don't think it's owt but just to prevent my I don't know how you'd describe that but it's er it's got all the features of an innocent little blob. Right. I'm okay then. Yeah, I think that's okay. Thank you. Right, not at all. Take care of yourself. Yeah, See you bye now. Bye. Hello. Hel hello Dorothy. Doctor for you Doctor. Doctor ? Mhm. Hang on. Can we, can we start? Hope we haven't spoilt your you haven't spoilt lunch by doing the statistical check. No. No, thank you. Erm first of all can I put the county on notice to er respond later on this afternoon to the thesis expanded by Professor Lock that er it might be tenable to start calculating employment land requirements based on numbers of employed or numbers in employment or desired ai or employment levels to be aimed at, er and coupled with that, is there anything in the figures which they have produced in either their submission or and and its appendices which actually might form a basis for that sort of calculation? It's a view, I'm not necessarily asking you to do any further statistical work but I would like a view on it, whether it's tenable or not. And then we go back to the point which Mr Cunnane wanted to raise and they've had their lunchtime discussions, see whether you've come to a some form of agreement or resolution on that. We have. You have? Right, would you like to start on that then? Right. Whil whilst whilst you're thinking about it I would also suggest that er well ask for any other comments anybody may wish to raise on Selby itself. Erm anything else that needs to be added? Er and if not we would move to discuss Harrogate. Professor Lock. Er David Lock sir. One matter rose over erm in discussion over lunch which if we could get a clarification on it might help the remainder of the day. Erm it's about the relationship between policy I five erm on industry and the policy I fifteen for erm central area offices and so on. It was erm said this morning early on in an exchange in the discussion that erm these two things were separate. I twelve you mean? I'm sorry I twelve yes . I beg your pardon I beg your pardon twelve, these two things were separate you know one could be added to the other in looking an as it were at the total employment requirement. Th that was what was said. Going through it at lunchtime we wondered if that really is what was meant, it's terribly important one way or the other. Would it be possible to Well you'd you'd like clarification on that from the county? Yeah. That was not my understanding Professor Lock. My understanding was that any provision made in accordance with I twelve did not count towards I five I five provision. Did not count. Is that different to what I've just asked, sorry? I think so. Right. Let's, can we find out. Well can I say I, my interpretation of it, we're not quite looking at the same sort of horse. Right. But, Mr Williamson would you care to comment on the difference between I five and I, well what is the purpose of I twelve compared with the purpose of I five ? Mr Potter. David Potter, North Yorkshire County Council. The essential difference i between I twelve and I five is that I twelve in the past has dealt with central area office developments Mhm. erm and some service development. Now because of the changes to the use classes order and the B one office category, it's not always clear what is central area offices, what is B one offices on industrial estates, so what we've tried to do in terms of I five, I five has always essentially been there to deal with industrial development, Yeah. we've tried to incorporate an element of B one office within that provision but we feel it's not feasible to monitor effectively erm I twelve type office development within central areas. The old I twelve which you have proposed altering and this is for Professor Lock's benefit, actually had specific er floor-space figures set against York, Scarborough and Harrogate did it not? It did yes . Yes. Yeah. And those have now been are proposed to be deleted from this They are. modification or this change to the policy. But anything done I twelve does not take up any part of I five, as I understand it. That's correct. Yes. Does that clarify ? So Does that clarify? That is what I heard sir, yes . So there is no limit on B one use in central areas, in or adjacent to town centres to use the definition use in I twelve. There is however some provision un-quantified for B one use in I five . I five. The sorry David Lock again. So the the that is what I heard this morning erm very grateful erm erm for your patience. It it does, it is a terribly material Mhm. erm clarification because for people like me that are interested in the total provision of employment land in the district, erm what I'm hearing for example in the case of Harrogate is that there is an allocation of employment land of of sixty hectares plus the Greater York allocation. It means that any office development or commercial of this kind in this I twelve policy that was to occur in Harrogate would not be counted off the sixty hectares of em erm of I five allocation, it would be in addition to it, and that may be a very important breakthrough for us . Well yes. No doubt you'll want to return to that. Thank you very much. I'm most grateful sir . Yes. But the critical thing with I twelve as the policy's currently drafted is that it is location specific. It is not other than in town centres, market towns and local commercial centres. Mm. There is no such restriction on any I five provision. It would mean then erm that a district council could take its allocation under I five in its local plan, distribute it everywhere except in the town centre Not necessarily. right. It could put some in the town centre or it could or it need not. Mm. Mhm. That could be determined against the local plan. If it chose to put it all outside the town centre, what then subsequently occurred in the town centre under I twelve would not be damaging its allocation against the structure plan policy outside the town centre. I it looks like there's a lot of freedom in there at the local level which is of interest. Yes. You are you are getting affirmative I'm getting nods aren't I sir, and I'm very grateful for that . Yes, yes, yes, yes. Mr Cunnane? Joe Cunnane, J C Cunnane Associates. Yes the point that I wanted to raise on the table we have resolved. It was, I didn't erm believe that the picture of constraint that was painted in appendix two was quite as bad as it looked. And we have discussed the matter with erm Selby officers and the following is the result of those discussions. What we've done is we've taken out of the table what is unlikely to happen, no not unlikely, er I'll rephrase that, what is agreed will not come forward in in the structure plan period, the roll forward Mhm. period. And they are as follows, Selby Road Barlby, one point three hectares, it's about erm seventh from the top of the list, Yes I've got it. yeah, and the next one Olympia Mills Barlby. Then moving down the table to outstanding planning consents, Whelan Road, Eggborough, three point three hectares. And at the very bottom of the table Naburn hospital, twenty point eight nine hectares. So that's about forty hectares in total is it? It's thir thirty two point six hectares in total Sorry. of im of I five land. Did you say thirty? I'll tell you, I I have a, if I finish the sentence it may explain. In the Naburn hospital allocation it's, there is eleven H A for I five land and then there's a remaining allocation for retail Yeah, yes. So if you count only the I five land, you get a figure of thirty two point six hectares Mhm. which needs to be deducted from the hundred and ten point two seven which gives you a re a possible alloca a possible amount of land to come forward in the structure plan period of seventy seven point six seven, off which to make the figures round properly you need to take another ten, for the retail element if that became I five land which could theoretically give you a figure of sixty seven point six seven. Does that make sense? It might it would be helpful actually if this could be written down for us. Quite happy to have it in manuscript. Mm. Right. Yeah we'll do that. Thank you. Mr Mr Heselton. Thank you sir, Terry Heselton, Selby District. I'm I'm not wishing to er to dispute what er Mr Cunnane's just said er, I hope you won't think I'm necessarily splitting hairs but er we we've we've agreed the table on on the base basis of erm information best information available a at the moment but but equally I wouldn't wish it to be seen th that I am in any way attempting to prejudge the outcome of er local plan studies, erm so the information that I've agreed with with Mr C Cunnane is basically an attempt to clarify the tabulation fo er in Yeah. terms of what is most likely to happen on the basis of the information available. I mean i what what we're looking for is is the overall figure of this revised assessment of land availability for I five uses in the plan period, and your residue figure would be the one which would not likely to be made available before the year two thousand and six. Are you happy with that? Yes sir. Thank you. Now anyone else want to make a contribution on Selby and then we can move to Harrogate? Sorry, yes. Come on it's alright. Final contr final contribution on Selby if I may please. I just need to draw attention to the fact that the erm Selby have given us a a very clear explanation of their unemployment problems and the difficulties they're facing and erm their th th their solution being er the allocations that they're suggesting which obviously I don't agree with. But I just I simply need to point out that these I five allocations are targeted at twenty eight percent of the workforce. Mhm. Erm the remaining seventy two percent are entirely separate from this and obviously that's a a very important point to bear in mind when you consider the level of allocation that's been made first of all, and secondly the likelihood that if that is successful, first of all if it's approved, if it's recommended by the panel and eventually taken on by the county, and secondly if happens, then it is likely that it will result in skewing of the workforce even more towards the manufacturing sector of the economy and would in our view be contrary to the aim of diversification of the economic base. I don't understand that Mr Cunnane Can you first of all explain please why you say it's targeted towards twenty eight percent of the workforce? Be because the I five policy is aimed at a specific area of the workforce, it's not it's not across the full spectrum. For example it omits retail services Mm. erm all other types of employment other than I five type employment. But I five includes business use, class B one. It includes an element of business use which is likely to end up in er industrial estates which is not the full spectrum of business use, back to the point I twelve er is the main generator of business use employment as I understand it. It could include any B one use? Yes. But the I don't understand therefore how you can ex say that it's targeted to primarily to manufacturing. Because the B one use that's that is planned for within that allocation is a type of B one which is likely to locate on an industrial estate er to use the the term. It's not the full spectrum of B one use. The reason that that B one insertion has been made is to cope with the use classes order change. I don't think I can accept that it's targeted towards industrial estates, it does not preclude office style campus development being included within it. Yes I I would accept that. But the general point remains that it is to it is targeted towards a particular sector of the workforce. it omits town centre office, it omits retail, it omits leisure, all the other types of employment generation that can take place. I think we can agree it omits leisure, shopping, Education. Lo local government administration No it does not o omit local government administration. Mm. It'd be perfectly proper if there were new local government offices to be built for them to be located on an I five site. I can cite you a perfectly good example of that. Well that's specifically excluded from the er calculation. If you look into the calculations you'll find they are specifically excluded. The I wasn't talking about what were included in the calculations, what I was talking about and we may be at cross purposes for that reason is what the policy provides for. It's it's probably easier to say what it doesn't provide for. Erm, it as I say it doesn't provide for the the uses we've just discussed and in my, I don't want to get too entangled in the statistics of it, the main point I want to make is that Mm. it is targeted at a s at a at a sector of the workforce, it is not the whole workforce of Selby by any means. Mm. It is But that applies to any of the districts? Yes. Doesn't it? Yeah. I accept that, but none of the other districts are g are are making the point that's Selby's making, that the level of unemployment that they are encountering across the economy, not necessarily just in this sector of the economy, justifies the doubling of the of the of the allocation put forward. But part of their argument as I see it is that they are trying to seek to minimize the impact er in terms of unemployment levels by shifting the structure er and trying to well possibly counter the effects of a fallout in the primary sector. Yes I accept that. Mm. But it doesn't it doesn't take from the point that I made that it is i i the allocation they're seeking is aimed at a very specific sector of the employment base . Yeah, well yeah. That the Senior Inspector doesn't accept that. No I cannot accept that. It includes all types of industry and business use as d the latter is defined by class B one I'll I'll accept that . which includes light industry. Yeah. It is not therefore targeted towards manufacturing. Any more than it is targeted towards high-tech, R and D, office headquarters or any other type of office development except that which is and as I said in response to the point Professor Lock was making, it does not include town centre type Mm. uses. There is nothing in it which precludes town centre type uses. Well i if it assists, I'll omit the use of any kinds of labels of manufacturing or offices Mm. or anything like that and I will make the point that it is targeted at a sector of the economy and the workforce, it is not the whole economy and not the whole workforce. I think the point you were trying to make is it it's a relative sorry no I shouldn't say relatively small, but it's a proportion of the workforce which is somewhat less than fifty percent. Yes. I can't accept that . But are you It's difficult it's difficult No. It's difficult to put figures on that you see, you can't do it. I accept that it precludes class A development. It does not in my view exclude any B class development . Mm. I accept that. Yeah. Then it is not targeted towards any sector of the workforce. Is it? Well i by definition it must be if it excludes all A classes for example. It inc excludes retail development. Yes. Leisure development, Yes. As the chairman said education, transport Yes. Yes. I d I d Not except it does not i preclude exclude B eight uses. No. Warehousing. No I I well I've accepted it includes Mm. all B uses. But as I say I don't necessarily want to get involved in too much of the detail of the statistics of it, I simply want to make the overall point that we've been told that there are three thousand unemployed. It's an emotional phrase okay. There are three thousand unemployed in Selby. Selby has has a particular problem, its its economy is narrowly focused, it suffers high unemployment. The point I make is that the the allocations that we are making are not going to solve the problem across the full spectrum of the economy, they are targeted. I think we might well we could be in a cul-de-sac here or a discussion which er could cease to bear any fruit very rapidly. Could we er Are you s can we j ask Mr Cunnane is he suggesting that I five definition the second line of the policy should be widened? No I'm not. Thank you. Thank you. Mr Heselton. Er thank you sir, Terry Heselton Selby District. Erm . In in view in the light of what you've just said I'm not sure whether I wanna get er too involved. certainly not in the er in the statistical element. C can I just clarify erm, what I think Mr Cunnane w was saying then through through you i if you like. The the twenty What do you mean if I like? eight percent erm the two hundred and fifty hectare er two hundred and fifty hectares is needed for twenty eight percent of I was the of the workforce. I was trying to get away from percentages and I was trying not to pursue the thing any further. Well I'll go along with that, sir. Thank you. Do you want to pursue it any further? Only to the extent of saying given that those that are employed today cannot be guaranteed to be em to be employed tomorrow and that the three thousand in essence comprises of a constantly changing group of people, I don't see how anyone can argue that future employment provision is geared towards anybody. It's geared towards us all surely. Even inspector work. But you don't m I won't say it. Can we move to Harrogate? Mr Allenby can I ask you to pick up your submission then follow on with er Professor Lock. Thank you chairman. Er David Allenby, Harrogate Borough Council. I'll be very brief it's all set down in my statement. Er basically Harrogate's position is that it supports the level of employment land proposed in policy I five, and that's er a total allocation of ninety hectares. Erm however we would wish to see that policy complemented by the inclusion of the strategic exceptions policy erm and we know that I know that's to be discussed tomorrow but I will mention now that I think it would have been much more useful to the discussion if we'd have been able to discuss the strategic sites issue as part of this debate. We were we were not looking for an exception to policy E two we were looking for a policy which complements erm I five. Anyway I'll I'll not say any more about that. The total allocation of ninety hectares fo for Harrogate comprises er two thirty hectares Greater York, sixty hectares for the rest of the district. I've already said this morning that the thirty hectares for Greater York really reflects the availability of the site which is already committed. The sixty hectares provision for the rest of the district closely erm relates both to both methods erm of the forecasting erm that the County Council have done and the the forecast on on the basis of past rates and economic activity, and it's our view that erm the the level of sixty hectares is reasonable in relation to both those methodologies. Anything less than sixty hectares would be unrealistic and it certainly won't allow us any flexibility at all to allocate erm sufficient land as we see it to meet the needs of the resident population, and there would in fact be a shortfall er of employment land provision in our view towards the end of the plan period. Er perhaps more importantly,i it wouldn't meet the advice of P P G four that provision should be realistic er a realistic reflection of the needs of business er and that there should be a range in choice of sites to meet the varying needs of business and to facilitate competition. Having said that, we're not seeking an higher allocation under I five either er because in general terms, we we don't feel it's necessary to make further provision in and around main settlements. Erm having said that, I I will mention briefly again the strategic sites issue and we do feel that there should be additional flexibility through that sort of policy to allow for er the possibility of different types of developments to come forward. Er we do hold the view that the sixty hectares is sufficient on the on the basis that there is a degree of flexibility within the structure plan provision, er and that er flexibility should allow us erm in special circumstances for example to compensate for the loss of existing major employment erm sites, erm to make additional provision over and above that. We already have confirmation from the County Council that there is an element of flexibility within er I five. I note in circumstances where th there was to be the loss of a major employment site to other uses, then er additional provision could be made. I don't really want to make any more Mhm. Can I interpret what you've just said as erm representing in effect an aim on the part of the County Council to secure in Harrogate the nineteen ninety one area of employment land plus ninety hectares in two thousand and six? Yes tha that's right yes. In general terms. So if you lost something the ninety would increase accordingly? Yes er the er David Allenby, Harrogate Borough Council. Yes I think that would apply where there was a a major or significant loss of employment land. We're not talking about small sites which go from employment use to another use, we're talking about something much more significant than that. That's not been defined erm and it will be a matter of judgement. There are sites in Harrogate that erm could be lost to employment use and that we'd want to make compensating provision for those sites over and above the ninety hectares. Thank you. Professor Lock and then Mr Laycock. David Lock sir excuse me. David Lock. I think I could be a lot lot shorter than it might have been thought was necessary because things have been made, a lot of furniture has be has been moved today er already. Erm we sir had objected to the erm er allocation proposed for of employment land under I five er to Harrogate, er believing that it should have been even more than the erm er raised figure of sixty hectares outside Greater York er that is in currently before you before us all. Erm the reasons that we were er anxious about this allocation to Harrogate erm stemmed from the point that I think somebody should make on this occasion and that is that it does seem there are two local authorities within North Yorkshire that have particularly distinguished er issues to deal with on employment. One is Selby which we've just spent the morning discussing and for very very different reasons the other is Harrogate. Erm Harrogate er is a borough that's enjoyed an enormous er growth in prosperity and economic activity during the erm exciting er yuppie years of Mrs Thatcher the mid eighties and erm er was indeed one of the I think one of the most wealthy boroughs, one of the highest economic activity rate levels, the Civic Society tell us in their papers it was paying the highest rates and all these sort of indicators, but with as so much of that period it turned out to be er a bubble and a chimera and er the borough has experienced some very severe erm er closures in recent years. And so whilst the popular perception of Harrogate will remain of it as being a very prosperous and pretty borough er with everything going for it, in fact there's a very serious unemployment problem of structural er magnitude and we felt that the county structure plan had not acknowledged this erm special difficulty that Harrogate was facing, and had merely applied as we heard this morning the standard formula as it were to Harrogate, as it had to all the other local authority areas in the county. And this application of standard formula upset Selby for reasons we heard this morning, and it upsel =set us because it didn't seem to be taking the real situation into account. In particular erm we were worried that the county just had not acknowledged that one of the phenomena of the nineteen eighties had been that much of the industrial land in the borough of Harrogate converted to B one office use. Erm very extensive business park development took place, land values on these industrial areas rose accordingly and all manufacturing uses were either er destabilized because their land values now became greater than the businesses that were on them, or new manufacturing plant simply could not acquire the land at affordable prices because there were always people willing to buy it for B one. This was a very strong phenomenon in Harrogate and we felt the erm the county had not er understood that matter seriously enough. Secondly we were erm concerned that the county had not erm thought properly about employment densities, erm they have backed away from using employment density today as a significant calculator, but I hope you've noticed sir that the erm the county's mind set on employment densities is that whereas in the last structure plan they were working off a density, average density of thirty four workers for hectare. Erm in this round they are er working off a higher figure of forty three. Happens to be a reversion of the two numbers which is neat. Whereas all the trends erm I would submit, sir in in economic activity, are suggesting that employ average employment levels and densities are falling, partly because of improved working conditions that workers require and also because of er modern processes and site layouts er have lower densities, all of which suggests that depression on the number of workers per hectare rather than an increase which is where the county's head is at. Thirdly we felt the county had not understood enough of the pattern of erm impending relocations within Harrogate Borough Council. Erm the economic development unit of the borough, Mr Allenby, should know more about it than me, but they have done studies of the firms in Harrogate that can be expected to seek relocation within the borough as they sort themselves out over the next five years, and erm their own calculations for the next five years is more than the county's whole calculation for the next fifteen years, which suggested to us again that there was a problem about the understanding that the county had on the matter of relocations within Harrogate compared with what was going on locally. And erm, the other aspect, the last aspect that gave us er anxiety was something I touched on this morning when I joined in at the end of the Selby discussion. And that is the erm absence of understanding it seems to us from the County Planning Department of the way the actual market works, and of the need for a local authority area erm in seeking to obtain employment for its people, the need for that area to be able to offer a variety of er employment land both in quality, size and location. This is an important point sir because there is a drift of much government policy towards the reuse of derelict urban land and the lady on my right here was making this point this morning to you. Erm as desirable as that objective is, the fact of the matter is that inward investors, given the choice of the derelict industrial site in a town centre in North Yorkshire or an out of town motorway junction site to exaggerate the difference, in another part of the country is as likely as not to choose the other place. Now this means that erm putting it in its simplest way that for any of the districts in North Yorkshire and for Harrogate and if I may presume to say so in Selby in particular where the need is greatest, the local authorities must have the ability to designate what is provocatively called green field land, if they so wish in their local plan,proper consultations and strategic policies, they must have that freedom to do that if they are to be able to offer in their district land which will prove attractive to erm employment generating uses. Now those were the issues that were leading us sir had left us to make an objection to this structure plan that we thought erm the detailed papers on it were sent to the county in our in our objections, they led us to by a series of calculations to come to the view that around about a hundred hectares would be more appropriate for Harrogate, this is in addition to its Greater York supplement, erm than what is now settled upon which is sixty hectares. However, having heard today sir that two things. Erm firstly that if an existing employment use falls to another land use, this is what Mr Allenby was just saying, the subsequent release of employment land onto the market does not come out of the sixty hectares the structure plan's asking for, that's what that's what Mr Allenby just said, I hope he won't come back on it, major point. Having heard that, and secondly due to your patience er through your patience getting clarification that it the borough could if it wished allocate its sixty hectares under this structure plan policy outside the town centres and that things that then took place in town centres would be extra, it's not something they have to do but it's a freedom they would have in their local plan, having heard those two things, the concern I've got that even at sixty hectares, Harrogate's allocation was too small erm really recedes very quickly sir, and would completely disappear and here Mr Allenby and I are at one, if the way this discussion had worked out had got the strategic site policy on the table today as a discussion item, and if we were able to get clear that such a strategic site policy if it existed was in addition to the allocations under I five, I would be wholly happy sir and would be able formally withdraw our objections absolutely. So in summary there are three, three little erm weights in the balance here as far as er as far as I'm concerned, and all three weights in the balance would shut me up completely. The first one we've had satisfaction on today, erm that new employ sorry existing employment land falling vacant and being redeveloped doesn't count against the sixty hecst hectares, secondly that the borough if it wished, subject to the local plan process and er county structure plan policies could choose to put its sixt sixty hectares outside the city centres or in part, and then the third weight sir which much hover in the air I guess till tomorrow would be er the arrival of the strategic site policy which would be in addition . Those three things would kill it sir altogether and two already are looking very optimistic. The last could be the icing on the cake couldn't it? Yes it could . Couldn't put it better myself. Would you like then an interpretation of what is meant by I five and I twelve in the context of your comments? That would really By both the county and Mr Allenby? That would really help sir, thank you sir. Who who is going to that one? Mr Potter first? Er David Potter, North Yorkshire County Council. Erm taking up Professor Lock's points of the way the figures were calculated. The B one development take-up is er I think a result of the the market in terms of B one is an attractive position for speculators, a great deal of that land has not yet been developed. I believe there is speculative developments appreciate that it is not likely to be developed for B one, it will become available for other uses. With regard to the thirty four workers forty three workers per hectare, the approved structure plan is based on forty three workers per hectare as a result of the Secretary of State's intervention in terms of, he agreed forty three workers per hectare, we simply carry that forward. The relocations issue, on relocations the County Council uses past land take-up, there will be an element of relocations included within that land take-up figure in so far as land which is vacated on small sites and falls to another use that is that is not counted. In terms of the economic activity projections, as a result of representations made to me by one of Professor Lock's colleagues, that was one of the main reasons I increased the assumptions on the eco economic activity based projection, to increase B one office relocations to a a far higher degree percentage than previously. So in fact I believe we have taken on all all of those issues. With regard to an absence of market demand, the economic development strategy produced by the County Council refers to inward investment, it refers to this as being a small portion of the portion of er job growth, the county is not necessarily best placed to attract inward investment in terms of the the type of economy that we have based on small firms and the availability of labour. The inward investment is will continue to be a source of new jobs and it is encouraged as a as making a contribution to new jobs, but is never going to be a major contributor to new job growth. So we have in fact taken on board what we consider to be the market demand issue. In terms of the land which is lost and will it be counted, er I would agree with David Allenby, in so in so far as where small sites are lost, they are in fact largely taken up in past land-take trends, but when a major site is lost, that at the moment forms part of the ninety one base of employment, and it it is something that we wouldn't have anticipated, therefore I think in terms of when we look at land availability figures and availability of supply erm we would have to look very carefully at land which is lost or significant land which is lost, or a significant number of jobs, it wouldn't necessary be added onto the structure plan requirement, but it could be deducted from the land availa land availability figures as land lost. Do you have a threshold for that? In terms of size or I think it depends very much on the circumstances. We would have to deal with that as and when it arose. Right. Mr Allenby? Thank you chairman. David Allenby, Harrogate Borough Council. Just a a couple of points. Er on density we have ourselves done some er survey work to show that a density of about forty three persons per hectare is about right. I think our survey showed it could be as high as fifty per hectare in fact, er but we didn't have a full response to the survey and er there's nothing er in the results that would lead us to a conclusion that it should be lower or higher, so we're quite happy to accept that assumption. Erm on the use of existing employment sites, I'd hate you to go away with the impression that er we were actively seeking to reallocate sites as they came forward, and that certainly isn't the case. We have a policy within our local plan and the council are committed to a policy in the district-wide plan to retain employment sites in employment use wherever we can. However there will be circumstances where sites are not suitable for continued employment use, er perhaps because of their impact on neighbouring residential areas, er and in those circumstances we would want to make compensating Can I take up this point about the forty three forty three, the chairman is telling me thirty four. Erm forty three thirty four As I understand it the structure plan is based on an average density employment density of forty three. That's correct yes. Got the numbers in the right order. And I as I understand the County Council's justification, it is that this was what the Secretary of State changed it to in nineteen eighty seven. That's correct. I have been puzzling to establish and I have failed, whether on the fourteenth of January nineteen eighty seven when the Secretary of State wrote the notice of approval, which in confirms his view that forty three per hectare is right, whether the use classes order had then been amended. It seems to me, racking my memory that the use classes order post dates and therefore the introduction of class B one which was the main thing in the new use classes order, the chairman tells me it was nineteen eighty eight. In that sense, if my logic is okay so far, and it is the amendment to the use classes order which has significantly shifted how we regard employment development for planning, I wondered if the justification for the forty three per hectare, on the grounds that the Secretary of State imposed it, actually holds water, these days? Sorry that was a long and complicated version to your question. But was the question clear Mr Potter? The the question was clear yes and er I in fact I agonized over that very question myself when I was trying to put these figures together. The er the figure of for the the density assumption used in the structure plan was originally thirty four workers per hectare and was corrected to forty three workers per hectare. Mhm. Erm that was based, the thirty four workers per hectare was based on a a survey of er employment site ac sites across the county. I try to update that wherever I can, and it is very difficult, we have to use the annual census of employment and historic records. On the information that I have, densities range quite considerably, from as low as ten workers per hectare up to a hundred workers per hectare, but on average somewhere around thirty four, forty three could be taken if one wished to choose an average. And as I was forced to do, adopting this approach, then that is the average I took. With regard to B one development, er I wrote around those areas where which to other county councils, structure plan societies which monitored B one development and where B one development had taken place, which was largely in the southeast. Again the densities that I was getting back from them varied considerably, from a hundred workers per hectare on some B one developments again to much lower figures. Erm and given the wide range of densities, the only conclusion I came to was I should accept forty three workers per hectare. How would you answer the allegation that that is unduly restrictive, bearing in mind the sort of factors which Professor Lock referred to like us all needing and liking more space? And attractive surroundings and things like erm leisure facilities, save your heart exercise machines and all of that in our workplaces? Tennis court,I think you've got the message. Yes erm modern business parks, erm they come in various shapes and sizes, some in extensive landscape settings with a lot of space around them, er and some at er Clifton Moor in York which er are more compact. And erm we have er multistorey units. I the densities will vary, you know the multistorey units, two or three floors office building could have a degree of er more more space around it. It it is very difficult to determine exactly what er space requirements are. I think forty three workers per hectare is a reasonable The highest building I think I've seen is the Minster. Do we want to encourage multistorey development? No but er I think recognize that er yet again there are one or two around yes. Thank you. I'm just trying, looking through your submission to see whether in fact you have produced a table which showed the possible land provision based on thirty four workers to the hectare. Have you have you got have you done that Yes the er that's a separate submission I've corrected today show's that . Yeah, yeah. Right. So in the context of thirty four workers per hectare as against forty three, Mhm. doing a rough rule of thumb, and that could increase for example for example the Harrogate provision by a third couldn't it? Erm Cos there's about a twenty five percent in workers per hectare, which actually would lead to about a third a third increase in the provision. The the Harrogate the Harrogate provision would rise from er the rest of the district outside Greater York, would rise from fifty two hectares to sixty six hectares. Yeah. A significant percentage increase. Yeah. It's about twenty five percent. Sorry you said fifty two hectares for the rest of the district? Rest of the district, yes. Yes, yes, yes tabulation yeah, yeah. Fifty two to sixty To sixty five. What if Sixty six. Yes, yes. Mr Allenby? David Allenby, Harrogate Borough Council. It it helps chairman er I could refer to the survey that we did erm of I think it was six erm industrial estates or employment er estates around the district, and they vary from modern business parks which are mainly office type developments through to some traditional and trading type estates. Erm at Hornbeam Park at er at Harrogate which is very recent office park, er had a density of forty two workers per hectare, whereas erm Lane Industrial Estate at Ripon which is a traditional sort of market town trading estate had a density of only thirteen Mhm. 7 to the hectare, and th the range as David Potter said and very you know very significantly erm up to sixty or seventy per hectare down to thirteen which was the lowest. I beg your pardon It's alright. Professor Lock . Just want to see whether Professor Lock was wanted any more er clarification on the responses he's had. Yes sir David Lock. I'm acutely aware of the Civic Society on my left desperate to get in. But erm the county didn't answer the er give us the clarification on the relationship between I twelve and I five erm that er we were asking for. Erm I've I particularly important because the districts here will need to feel very clear about what it is County Hall would not sorry would or would or would not jump on their necks for you see . This is terribly important. Er so any clarification you can give about er er Mr er with Mr Potter's comment that we would have to wait and see each one on its circumstances when we talking earlier about the industrial change of use makes me twitch, because it's lack of precision which all of us are trying to eliminate as much as we can in this process. So erm any er any clarification on the way the districts can use I twi er I twelve and I five as not being necessarily mutually exclusive wou would help. David Potter, North Yorkshire County Council. Er policy I five is primarily intended to deal with traditional industrial development, but it also recognizes that an element of B one development will take place on there, and as such development within the the business class be acceptable. Policy I twelve seeks to cater for the needs of central area office development. Traditionally the two things have been very separate. Erm i the definition is less clear now. The with regard to the control of I twelve it is a matter for the district council to determine in their local plans to where a central area is put erm whether a central area development should take place. I hope this is the last round sir. It begins to sound from this description that it's I twelve which is a bit of a dinosaur, a a dodo, that this is a county trying to carry on a thing which has probably passed its sell by date, that er it isn't fair to say that I five is primarily for industry, erm that isn't what the law says it is. You know whatever your intentions might be, a structure plan with that policy in it as was being discussed earlier, would admit all kinds of employment development within the relevant use classes order. Erm the er desire that I twelve conveys to encourage district councils to make special provision in their you know to emphasize high density employment in their city centres is understood, no quarrel with that, but if you can't, if you feel unable er at county level to be absolutely explicit, that a district would be free if it so chose, it might not choose to do so, if it so chose to make I twelve decisions that didn't come out of its I five, er they wouldn't have to come out of its I five allocations, unless you can be clear that they're free to do that, erm it suggests to me sir that may be it's I twelve that's that's getting in the way, erm and w that might well be something we can do without. David Potter? Yeah David Potter North Yorkshire County Council. I I think I'm quite able to confirm that it is within the district power to to determine that erm the I five allocation should be separate from the I twelve. You are able . You you're happy with that? Very happy. Delirious. Mr Cunnane. Mr Cunnane believes his point has been answered yes? We got out of the cul-de-sac? Yes. I thought the score was fifty . Mr Allen Allenby. Dave Allenby, Harrogate Borough Council. Can I just say on this sir that we we see policy I five as our interp sorry I twelve, it's our interpretation that it's really a recognition that office development is appropriate in or adjacent to er town centres and that we won't be seeking to er identify offices in or adjacent to town centres and take that element off the I five provision. It will of course include other types of B one use Mm. in addition to office development. It would include as the policy is drafted light industry in town centres. Does Mr Potter accept it and he has no option use classes order? Er David Potter, North Yorkshire County Council. I think yes er we have to accept that er the use classes order would allow that erm, but what we would anticipate is that in terms of I five, the local planning authority would be would allocate specific sites related to I five . Yeah, yeah, yes. Yeah thanks. Mr Laycock. Thank you Mr chairman. One thing I've learnt in the last half hour is the speed at which the rules of debate seem to be changing and it will not surprise you to hear that as Mr Allenby and Harrogate District Council have moved towards Professor Lock's point of view, they have moved away from the Civic Society's point of view. Now I'd like to bring you back to Mr Williamson's opening remarks in which he described the allocations of land for industry and all these other things that are tied in with industry now as generous, making generous allocations, and the Civic Society would like to see those allocations rather less generous, we are like trying to develop a climate of restraint when on the expansion of Harrogate and the rate at which people are encouraged or wish to come into the town. Now we are of course talking principally on this sixty hectare allocation for the district outside the Greater York area because I think it is well understood this enquiry can have comparatively little impact on how much development takes place within the surroundings of Greater York, because I understand the site that's being discussed is already committed and it is in any case part of the York pool rather than the Harrogate pool. So we're talking about the sixty acre sixty hectares that are allocated for the rest of the Harrogate district and er I should like formal confirmation from Mr Allenby privately already that there is no question of any part of the York, Greater York area allocation being transferred into the rest of the district should it fall through for any purpose. Should I deal Yes. Should I deal with that right now chairman ? Yes please. Yes Yes David Allenby, Harrogate Borough Council. Yes is that, that is my impression of the situation, the erm the basis of provision in the Greater York area is is that there is a site that is available and committed for er employment use. Erm if that site doesn't come forward, we won't be looking to transfer that allocation to the rest of the district. It'll have to be found somewhere else in Greater York . Thank you that clarifies the issue and concentrates our minds on this figure of sixty hectares. Now we in the Harrogate Civic Society would like to see the rest of the district allocation reduced at least to fifty hectares which has something to do with the forecast requirement on the grounds of past take-up, and I believe it is nearer the original figure for the rest of the district floated by the county in the initial consultations before amendment was made to the allocation between Greater York and the rest of the district. Ideally the Civic Society would like to see far more drastic policy change, possibly thinking in terms of forty hectares but we realize the minimum possible would be the thirty point five hectares which is hanging over from the first phase of the structure plan, and so that must of course be regarded as committed. Now we have consistently been somewhat sceptical about the genuineness of demand for land for industrial purposes. There has been reference in the Selby area for the likelihood that land initially allocated for industry will in fact be taken up for a supermarket. In Harrogate all too often it is car showrooms. There's a site to which this Society objected on Wetherby Road in Harrogate which we thought didn't need developing at all, but in practice the District Council decided they wanted it for industry because it considered the need for industry to be so great and we have along this frontage of Wetherby Road a row of three car showrooms and a token spot of industry behind it. Now we see that happening in an existing allocation and our scepticism towards further allocations is increased. Erm there are other cases where there is addit er existing land in office or industrial use owned by National Power where the owner is now asking for the land to be con taken out of industrial use and er transferred to housing. Now the District Council is thinking in terms of this as a reason why perhaps sixty ac sixty hectares may not be entirely enough and we should seek to compensate for transfers out of industrial land. The Civic Society takes the view that if land is being transferred out of industrial land and the District Council is going to allow this to happen, this casts doubt about how genuine the need is to find additional industrial land when land already allocated to industry is being lost. Now the point has already been raised and partly answered in the question in the case of Selby District Council as to whether it matters whether there is an over-provision of land for industry and other employment. Well one detrimental consequence of allocating more land for industry and employment is the a greater unpredictability of take-up. If you're going to have to find a much larger area you have to spread your net wider to find more and more sites for development which you might otherwise have been able to save from development, and there will an environmental cost, a cost to the quality of life of people living nearby because sites you might not wish to have developed must be included to find the target figure of industrial development. And if in fact this large area of industrial development is not taken up, you cannot be sure that the bits that are not taken up will be the least environmentally sensitive. It may be the ones that are environmentally sensitive will be taken up and other sites which are less environmentally sensitive will not be taken up, and er so we are anxious that we do not over-provide because we are anxious to save many attractive sites around Harrogate from development. And er I've already referred to a byproduct of over-provision that sites are then moved on to sh car showrooms and erm supermarkets which are needs which or demands which would probably not have justified the allocation of the land for industry in the first place but once the land is allocated to industry it seems to be thought that no harm would be done by allocating those to something else. Over-provision has a sort of knock-on effect that er whatever we provide this time, we shall be asked to provide at the next revision of the structure plan and so if we can keep some land back this time, then that might be what we offer next time, we have to roll forward the structure plan. And that is another reason why we are very keen to cut the allocations to land to the absolute minimum. Now there's been a lot of talk about the need to revive employment in Harrogate, and erm the possible future regeneration of the North Yorkshire economy as compared with the existing concern of Leeds and other authorities to regenerate the West Yorkshire authority. I would hate to feel that we were taking jobs away from Leeds in the sense that er people from Leeds felt compelled to move to Harrogate to do those jobs and I would cannot help feeling that elsewhere in Yorkshire, and I'm thinking particularly of South and West Yorkshire, there are many derelict industrial sites which re need to be recycled before we go too far along the line of er taking green field sites for new developments. Now a question of what are the industrial and employment needs of the Harrogate District? There's been a lot of concern over the past few months of the rate of increase in unemployment within the Harrogate District and how as a percentage unemployment has increased in the Harrogate District rather than other districts. Now I would say to sa say that that is almost a bit like the story of the boy crying that he didn't have many holidays because he didn't go to school and that because Harrogate's er unemployment is so low or has been historically so low compared with other areas, a relatively small increase in the number of unemployment has an enormous increase as compared with what it's been in the past and so the same number of people living in Harrogate who lose their jobs has an impact on the unemployment figures as perceived locally greater than a similar number of people losing their jobs in Leeds or Selby or somewhere else, and so I think to some extent this the rhetoric has outrun the reality on that point. I should also like to say that we are concerned about the question of how much industry should be in Harrogate and there's talk about avoiding the need for compu commuting. Now commuting is a consequence of human nature to a large extent, people choose to live away from their place of work and if they do choose to live away from their place of work then we'll need a much more authoritarian government than we are likely to see in the next ten or twenty years to stop people from living away from their place of work. And erm if we attract industry to the town, we'll attract people to the town to do the jobs and we'll have the commuting as well. And so I would like to discount all this talk about the need to cut down on commuting. I see this point of view from my own position as a third generation commuter between Harrogate and Leeds, and as a third generation commuter I don't feel that it is a commentary on any absence of jobs in Harrogate or any shortage of jobs in Harrogate that I work in Leeds and live in Harrogate, it's just something I've grown up to think of as natural. And many other people will choose to live in Harrogate even though they may have employment or L in Leeds or Selby District or Bradford District, and this will continue to happen. I do not think that the jobs that people in Harrogate will want to find will be jobs in the industrial area and they will tend to be office jobs, and to some extent they will be found in existing sites. Now I think the regeneration of the economy of North Yorkshire in general and Harrogate in particular will be a part of the regeneration of the national economy, when things turn right for the nation as a whole, they will turn right for North Yorkshire as a whole and for Harrogate in particular. Erm any strategy for taking jobs away from other parts of the country towards Harrogate will not solve the nation's problems and it will not in the long term solve North Yorkshire's problems. I think as jobs come back, jobs will be found as the economy as a whole picks up. Jobs will be found in Harrogate as elsewhere, and if we're thinking of lumping in the B one office use and the other B uses in with the manufacturing, I think it's fair to say that office uses are going to be far denser in terms of number of jobs per hectare than manufacturing, and therefore the allocations may not seem to be as great as otherwise might have been demanded. I'll take a pause now and then reply to any points that are made by anybody else . Thank you Mr Laycock. C could I just have your bottom line figure again then for I five. Fifty three? Well we'd like to see at lea at least down to fifty but we'd really like to probe and push towards forty if we could. Thank you. Mr Allenby do you want to respond to any of those points which Mr Laycock has raised? Yes please chairman. Er David Allenby, Harrogate Borough Council. I've got a number of points I'd like to come back on. Erm the first relates to car showrooms. Erm I won't take up the point in relation to the particular site er Mr La Laycock was referring to but in general terms, car showrooms and people who work in car sho showrooms are taken into account in the calculation of employment needs, Mm. industrial and commercial employment needs of the area and therefore it is right that car showrooms can be provided on sites allocated under I five. Er in relation to existing employment sites er and Mr Laycock referred to National Power, erm there we have an example of the attitude that the the council is taking towards the the re-use of employment sites. In fact we've just refused er the application er to change the use of that site to housing, or some of that site to housing, er for the very reason that we want to keep it in employment use and at the same meeting we also refused another site, another major employment site, erm and we want to keep that in employment use as well. So we we're taking a consistent line on existing employment sites, we do want to reuse them but we do recognize that there may be circumstances where that er that isn't the case. On migration, erm I really just wanted to make the point that erm the structure plan and er as supported by the local council is really seeking to meet the needs of the resident population. Erm the resident population will of course er include a significant proportion of people who are migrating into the district er as we saw last week. Erm the calculations that we have at the moment take on board the twenty five percent back in migration as proposed in the housing figures. If migration er increases to a hundred percent of past trends then the employment provision will have to increase also. Mm. Er the council's primary concern through all of this is that at the moment there are four thousand unemployed people in Harrogate District. Er the unemployment rate while still relatively in relation to national and even er regional levels, has increased very rapidly over the last few years and in fact over the last two or three years we've had something like three thousand jobs lost i in Harrogate. Er the fact that we've had low unemployment rates is due er mainly to the fact that provision was made for employment er in past years, and we want to make provision now to ensure that unemployment is as low as possible in the future. Erm as to the assertion that Harrogate wants office jobs and not industrial jobs, and I think the main point there is that we we're simply trying to achieve jobs to meet the needs of our resident workforce. Erm if the if office jobs are appropriate then they'll be provided or we'll seek to provide them, erm some jobs will be industrial jobs and no doubt that there will be office jobs. It's not for the planning authority to say what sort of jobs should be provided, but simply to ensure that the jobs that are provided do not have adverse environmental consequences that are are unacceptable. Er and finally to say that the strategy th that we have is not to take jobs from other areas, it is simply to meet the needs of the resident workforce. We are not seeking to attract people in er from Leeds or Bradford or anywhere else. We're simply simply looking to meet the needs of people who will be living in our district. Thank you. Mr Laycock? Yes I should like to come back on one or two of those points. The Civic Society was naturally very pleased t that we the council turned down the application on the National Power site. It is our feeling that the council needs to be encouraged to take that attitude because if we have a change of policy as the District Council are asking, so that the number of sites released from industrial use is compensated by new green field sites being allocated, then it seems a little bit like a blank cheque to us and we should like to see a firmer control on the amount of land that is lost to development and in seeing that firmer control we'd like to put pressure on the District Council by not offering them compensation if they allow industrial sites to become something else. I do feel on the question of whether we are bringing people into the Harrogate area or catering for the needs of the residential population. The District Council's argument is in danger of going round in a circle. Catering for the resident population appears to be include catering for the population that will come into the town in order to do the new work that will be brought to the town by their policies. The he s Mr Allenby said, the resident populating includ including inward migrants. Inward migrants will include people who come into the district in order to do the jobs that are provided and there are many examples of employers coming to the town and bringing their own people into the town to do the jobs that are brought into the town. And there's concern about losing de Ministry of Defence jobs in Harrogate now. Well the Ministry of Defence came into Harrogate just over fifty years ago and the jobs were done to some e to a large extent by people who might never have come to Harrogate if the Ministry of Defence had not er brought them in. And to some extent if you do bring jobs into the town which bring new people into the town, when the particular employer that has brought these people into the town or the area closes down, then we have more jobs to find in the area. But the central argument on the industrial front is that if you bring a large number of extra jobs into an area where the unemployment is much below the national average, and much below the regional average, then you are going to bring people from the surrounding area in and many of those people we believe would far prefer to have found jobs nearer their existing homes. Thank you. Mr Lock, sorry Professor Lock? No? Can I conclude on Harrogate then and we adjourn for tea until three thirty. Thank you. Erm because he would like to make a comment on the exceptions policy, he hasn't been invited to participate tomorrow, er I have exercised some latitude and said yes I will be happy to hear what he has to say, erm there is a prescribed time limit of which he is aware. The rest of us will take note of what he has to say and we'll bear it in mind tomorrow. So I'm not looking for a response to what he says at this stage. Mr Laycock. Thank you very much Mr chairman. This follows on for from our concern about industrial development in the Harrogate District and that is that we are very pleased that the Harr that the North Yorkshire County Council has not embarked upon a strategic exceptions policy. I fear that a strategic exceptions policy can be all too easily a euphemism for giving big companies more favourable treatment than small companies. Erm so one suspects that if something of truly national importance really came, that it might any planning control might be overridden in the merits in the urgency of the case. The having adoption of a strategic exceptions policy is an invitation for many possible major developments to be to ride on the back of the strategic in exceptions policies and to argue that they come within in. And I fear that er it could be a a recipe for bypassing environmental constraints if the organization is big enough to qualify as strategic, and I am really concerned about the planning er application in which I know that Da Professor Lock is interested that I think developments of that scale have nothing to do with the employment needs of the district, that they would in fact involve bringing in large numbers of people from other areas who as I have said before, might appreciate jobs nearer their present places of employment, and it would also unbalance the Harrogate housing market and put on pressure for more land to be taken in and around Harrogate for housing for the people who'd come to that development. So I I'm extremely pleased that the County Council have not gone for a strategic exceptions policy . Thank you very much. It is a theme which will be returned to tomorrow without doubt. Professor Lock is nodding his head. Can we now move to the other erm what I would describe as er item of contention, which is the amount of provision proposed for Richmondshire. Mr Steel. Mr chairman, erm, all my comments er er relate to I five, not er to I twelve. Erm in moving from Selby and er these other matters to er Richmondshire, we're moving fr from the er macro to the micro. Er I almost said su sublime to the ridiculous but I thought that might be misinterpreted. I would never describe Richmondshire as ridiculous. Thank you chairman. If only everybody agreed with you. Erm we've been given an allocation er in this er in these alterations of twenty five hectares. We feel this er this will hamper economic development in the district, it'll prevent us er achieving the proposals set out in er in our local plan and we're asking for thirty five hectares, an increase of ten hectares only. You've er got a copy of my written statement and I'll try to avoid repeating anything from that document, but it leans heavily on this which is the Richmondshire local plan interim statement. Erm it runs through the strategy that we're pursuing,i it er highlights the problems that er erm th that exist in the district, it stresses the need for flexibility and it concludes with an appendix which sets out the actual sites that we would like to see developed erm er over the next er ten years which is the length of the erm covered by the Richmondshire local plan. Having read through the er N Y N Y six and N Y seven, I've got to acknowledge that it's er far from easy to draw up a unified strategy for employment land in North Yorkshire and I can sympathize with the County Council er in their difficulties with the methodology and I think that they've adopted a very fair minded approach to this, they've er highlighted weaknesses wherever they occur, erm and I think that will be very obvious. That leads me to conclude that the only way to erm resolve matters is through consensus and I'm sure that that's essentially what we're about today. In fact erm, when I looked in detail at the written submission by the County Council, I found that er they ha th they said that they were placing emphasis on er on local factors. Now these local factors are not going to be strategic in nature er but they are important and er the er the County Council er concede this point. Erm in relation to Craven, the local view was taken into account, it says quite clearly in paragraph five of er N Y seven. Er in Hambleton's case, it's recognized that the allocation may be an over-provision but because of local plan proposals er an increase is merited, paragraph fifty one of N Y seven. Harrogate's figure er was increased after after representations by the er Borough Council, that's paragraph fifty six of N Y seven. Scarborough, adequate flexibility of land supply, that's a quote, it was referred to as a reason for greatly increasing the allocation above that which emerged from the er statistical work, paragraph seventy six of N Y seven and erm in Selby's case erm, land potentially available is recognized to be an important consideration, paragraph seventy eight of N Y seven. Er Mr Curtis opened er the session today er mentioning the the same sort of consideration had been given in York. Now when I was preparing this evidence, I got to this point and I thought to myself, why on earth has this not happened in Richmondshire? And I can only really regret with er with hindsight that er we as a District Council didn't pursue our point er more vigorously, erm as our general approach to these matters is er to cooperate as far as we possibly can rather than enter into conflict, and I think that perhaps we hadn't given as much emphasis to er the er our views as we ought to have done. Having said that, erm we we discussed these matters er in early nine nineteen ninety one at officer level, we set out a out a long letter setting out our concerns er in December nineteen ninety one. In relation to the consultation draft erm we er in April nineteen ninety two, we explained that we we believed that er erm the figure of twenty five hectares was not so far er adrift from our local plan proposals to merit an objection or merit treatment as a departure. Er that didn't draw any response from the County Council, so in er December nineteen ninety two when er when the deposit draft came through er we sought a clear understanding of the County Council position. We chased that letter in er March nineteen ninety three and er finally we wrote in July nineteen ninety three the letter which I've copied round er. Now you'll see in the final paragraph, er no in the second paragraph of that letter that er we're still looking for a er an amicable solution to erm to this whole thing. But we haven't had a response from the County Council. Now I'm I find it particularly strange that paragraph sixty one of N Y seven doesn't give any hint erm that the District Council was concerned about I I five figures until we were Mm. small sites. The sort of sites you'd expect to see allocated in a local plan. Now I think that er the County Council have reworked their figures and are probably pretty close to us now on on these matters. Erm perhaps no more than two hectares adrift, so if I could just emphasize that that land availability figure is round about thirty five hectares. Erm the the County Council have er highlighted open countryside as as a consideration that concerns them and er that's in paragraph ninety seven of er N Y seven. And I think it's of particular concern in Richmondshire. That paragraph refers to high quality of environment and agricultural land quality as factors which would have a bearing on the distribution of er erm employment land, and I just want to er assure the panel that I don't think any of the allocations that we've made er on the strength of the erm er consultations that we've entered into would cause problems er for either qual high quality environment or high quality agricultural land. I regard them as quite firm and realistic er allocations. Erm I'd like to pitch another figure into the debate, er because I don't agree with the County Council on this either. Erm I've circulated a map which shows the nineteen eighty one figures for commuting. Erm the the erm figure for the whole of the district which is taken from the nineteen eighty one census is fifteen percent of the workforce working outside Richmondshire. Tha that's a pretty simple sort of basis for assessment, but as you'll see from the map it's not by no means a consis consistent level and in the areas where we're erm where where the sites for the most part occur, er the c the level of commuti commuting is much greater than it is er outside those areas. The er the only figure that I I can find for commuting erm supplied by the County Council is in er table five of N Y six I think it is, N Y six, where the County Council give er at the bottom of that erm on the bottom line of that table, a figure for Richmondshire of er three point five percent. I'm I'm really mentioning th this for the record because I don't think it er it goes to the heart of the issue since erm the the erm Richmondshire allocation does not depend on these figures, but I do want to emphasize that er doing something about the commuting problem is an issue in Richmondshire. Mhm. And just for the record there's an there's an error, a typographical error in the middle of that er table, there's a zero and there should another figure. Erm, having looked at all that, I think what the issue really boils down to essentially is the willingness of the County Council and I suppose the panel, having heard what er the debate, to accept what I think is really a modest level of flexibility er er requested by the District Council. That flexibility is needed for the following reasons. It er it meets the er the terms of government advice, it enables us to provide the sort of range of er sites that er we we feel we need to erm attack the problem of er economic development. It provides for alternative sites to be available in the knowledge that not all sites are gonna become available by the very nature of the exercise, that is what happens. It also has regard to the fact that er some land will be lost to development which is taking place under the terms of policy I four. Er nobody's mentioned this policy before, but I four relates to the expansion and relocation of existing firms. It's a c makes a considerable contribution Mm. to erm the the pattern of development going on in Richmondshire and I suspect in other districts as well, having read through their their evidence. Erm it's also acknowledged in paragraph thirteen of N Y six, but this this factor means that some of the development which takes place on the on a land allocated for I five won't actually go towards meeting the I five target, it'll be lost in terms of I four. The these are all reasons why there needs to be flexibility. Erm I noticed er with interest that in the Greater York context the County Council seem happy to offer this flexibility, that there they call it a bias towards opportunities for development which I'm quite happy to accept that term if er if it er improves our position . Erm I've looked at the question of whether there's a down side to er what we're talking about, I've nearly finished chairman. It's alright. Erm, because the County Council they've talked about the problems of oversupply in two er two respects, sterilization of land. This is not er a realistic scenario in the Richmondshire context. Land er which is allocated for development through this plan will either remain in agriculture or er will be developed. I don't think there's a remote possibility that it's going to hang about in a kind of semi-derelict state er, because erm somebody's invested in infrastructure, altered its character but there are no takers for erm for the the development which follows from that. That's not a realistic position. Now the the second point raised by the County Council is the their concern that residential development will be unsynchronized with employment development. And I I noticed with interest er I'm really going shifting right back to er last week here, er the Housebuilders' Federation er were all sort of putting the reverse argument forward. They they erm er in their document identified er the fact that Richmondshire is getting six point one percent of the housing allocation and five point one percent of the employment allocation. I'm mentioning this simply to er highlight the fact that if there is a bit of an upward movement in er the employment allocation, it'll simply re-synchronize it with the housing allocation. Now I know those are pretty crude figures but it's an item of evidence. Erm the District Council isn't being arbitrary in er in this respect. We er we've tried to er to meet the the the County Council's requirements, we've scaled down our original er provision of erm employment land to take account of the emerging structure plan thinking. We er went as far as we could without er erm finding that we would have to delete allocations that we were making or produce unrealistic er development sites erm the the figure of er twenty five hectares simply means that we're ratcheting the the whole thing down to a point at which it can't be sustained. Erm I I know with certainty that the thirty five hectare that we're ask hectares that we're asking for can be achieved, because we know the sites that er that where development will take place. Erm the final point is that er the the er the County Council have suggested in paragraph five of N Y seven that certain matters could be held over to complete review of the er er structure plan. I would not want this er this issue to be treated in that way and I'm sure the panel won't do that. And a absolutely finally, all my comments have been related to the area of Richmondshire outside the Yorkshire Dales National Park. You answered one of the questions I was going to pose to you. Erm in effect what you're s what you're asking for is the level of provision to return to something equivalent to what it is in the approved structure plan er and also would reflect fairly careful analysis of what you've done as to what would be reasonable allocations. Absolutely chairman. Thank you. Mr Potter. David Potter, North Yorkshire County Council. Er taking some of the points that have been raised by Mr Steel. Erm Mr Steel's quite correct, in determining the appropriate level of provision for Richmondshire and other districts, we I essentially followed the the course of action which you've outlined in the background papers. Following the publication of er draft figures, I discussed these with the districts, and where it was felt appropriate to take on board s er suggestions made by the districts, this was done. A number of meetings have been held with District Councils over the period of the preparation of the plan. The amendments that Mr Steel refers to specifically, relating to other districts, were all made as a direct consequence of those districts making formal representations to the consultation draft. The formal representations made by Richmondshire suggested that there was no conflict with the proposed provision in the consultation draft and their local plan strategy. At the deposit plan stage, again no clear formal objection was made by the district as to the inappropriateness of this particular level of provision. The discussions between the County Council and the District Council go back some considerable time, over the proposed level of provision in the district statement erm the core strategy for employment, and there is a particular issue between us over the distribution of this land within the district, in terms of its compatibility with the structure plan strategy. The figures that er Mr Steel referred to on commuting flows neglect to refer to the inflow of commuters, the figures that I've used are a net is a net figure which reflects outflow and inflow. Work would be a crude er a crude assessment er between nineteen ei nineteen ninety one census of employment data and nineteen ninety one census data would indicate that there is a greater inflow of commuters now than in nineteen eighty one, although I accept that that is crude and I wouldn't like to Mm. rely on that particularly. With regard to the Greater York bias, the Greater York bias he refers to is simply a bias towards where the opportunities for development exist in Greater York, it is not a bias in any other sense than in terms of its distribution. We had to look at where the opportunities were for development in Greater York as a whole rather than looking at individual district elements, and in terms of land available, erm Mr Steel appears to have included some sites which we classify as land held in reserve, which we don't normally count towards the land availability targets, although we do acknowledge that it is there. That is t to er that is land which is held for expansion purposes, clearly identified by firms as meeting their expansion needs. We note it but we don't include it within the land availability figures in relation to erm policy I four. And with ret with er land availability erm with regard to the land availability figures, Mr Steel also includes a s a site of some ten hectares which the County Council has formally objected to in terms of a planning application lodged and in terms of the distributional strategy of the local plan. If that is excluded, then we come back down towards the twenty five hectares. Mr Steel? Paul Steel, er chairman, Richmondshire. Erm just a correction er really chairman. I er I've discussed these availability figures and I think it's important in Richmondshire's case er to get the answer right. Erm, talked about them to County Council staff only today. The there is a core of them which is land available in terms of this document. That is something like twenty five twenty seven hectares. The land held in reserve in Richmondshire's case is not just land held in reserve for existing firms to expand on, but also includes three sites which are identified in this document as being reserved for development after two thousand and one, between two thousand and one and two thousand and six. Those three sites amount to eleven plus hectares. That's where I get my erm total of thirty s thirty five Mhm. give or take. The second point I can't just er Is the question or the point that Mr Potter raised about the ten hectare site to which the County Council objects? Yeah. Is that is that part of your thirty six hectares? It's part of the thirty six hectares chairman but it's only a seven hectare site. Seven hectare site. We're straying into what I think are probably local plan issues here really , Mm, yes, yes. er arguing about the merits of individual sites. Er I could go on at great length about it if you wish me to but I'm sure you don't. No, no. Mr Potter, can I come back to you. Bearing in mind that Mr Steel probably on his own admission has said he's been a bit late out of the starting blocks in order to make his bid for a review of the allocations, er I mean how do you feel in response to that? Would you be minded to move move the Richmondshire figure back to where it is in the at least in the approved structure plan? David Potter, North Yorkshire County Council. Erm the approach we've adopted is to try and be as flexible as possible in terms of the using both the land-take and the economic activity rates. Er and in the lack of any specific response or request from the District Council on the flexibility issue, we I feel that those that allocation of twenty five hectares is broadly appropriate, but I would add that within the letter to the District Council objecting to the particular site, I do acknowledge that there is no suitable site available in the district for the the park. Mhm. I think the question which is critical to us is how would an additional ten hectares in Richmondshire harm the strategic objectives of the County Council? I think it depends where it is. Are you saying it is impossible for Richmondshire to find an additional ten hectares? No. Would doing that which would be acceptable to you, Yes, if it provided the additional flexibility would doing that harm the County Council's objectives? I think looking at it in terms of an overall position, I think that . I beg your pardon? The answer is no. I think the answer is no in local terms. Thank you. Now er the other districts have sat patiently and quietly through this discussion. I've taken the view that since you all appear to be happy with the provision made for you in I five, you don't wish to make any comment? Or do you want to have a chance to say something in the light of the way the discussion's progressed during the day? Right, now then can I pose a question to you, Mrs, well it's a collective question really for all the districts. If the density of workers to the hectare was changed from forty three to thirty four with a consequent increase in the allocation of provision, could you cope with that? Would it, are there any districts where that would raise serious problems? Yes it would be equivalent actually Mr Steel to the, well yes. Mr Curtis cannot get another I'm not gonna stop you from talking Mr Curtis but I Mr Curtis. Thank you chair, David Curtis, York City Council. Erm my only comment really would obviously be in relation to the Greater York situation. Yeah. Erm if I understand it correctly from from Mr Potter's er table nine, the implication would be that the the Greater York figure would go up to a hundred and sixty one hectares based on thirty four to the acr hectare, that is correct? That's correct yes. Clearly that would require a further erm sixteen hectares to be found compared to the hundred and forty five because the hundred and forty five did include an allowance for flexibility in the first place? Yes, yes. Erm, there are no agreed sites at the present time. There are other sites which my authority might note on that basis but which are not agreed with the County Council so I would be quite content with an increase in the Greater York figure on that basis. But clearly the County Council may not agree with me. Yes, yes. I won't ask you Mr Heselton, Two hundred to two hundred and fifty is very flexible. Mr Williamson. Er yes chairman erm I don't think erm Ray Williamson, Scarborough Council. Erm I don't think we have any real difficulty with dealing with an extra erm as I calculate it around about fifty acres. Yes hectares, not acres. Well no I don't Alright. think we we're talking about hectares in this case, we'll be talking around about twenty twenty hectares. Yeah. And I do I don't think we'd have any particular difficulty in coping with that increase. Erm thank you. Mr Steel. Paul Steel, Richmondshire, chairman. Er the County Council did not use the erm calculation of need which would be affected by the proposition you've just put forward based on land-take, past land-take. Past land-take is an absolute thing which doesn't depend on density Yeah, yeah, yeah. so I'm ducking out of. You are right, okay. How about Craven? Er Sharon Watson, er Craven District. Erm I think based on table nine erm the increase er by thirty four workers per hectare would cause Craven some problems. Mhm. Er in environmental terms erm we're already to release green field site which has been fairly environmentally sensitive er we'd have to insist upon a extensive landscaping compensations, erm er to in order for it to be to go ahead, er so I think the increase we would be looking at environmentally sensitive site. Yes, yes. I mean s sorry, just just to press you erm you wouldn't be unhappy if you stayed at twenty five hectares would you? No. No we'd be happy with twenty five hectares. Right, thank you. Mr Smith Mr Smith. Ian Smith, Ryedale. I'm not quite sure what how much the figure for Ryedale within Greater York would actually go up, erm placed on thirty four workers per hectare. Mr Potter you Er David David Potter, North Yorkshire County Council. Erm the figure for Ryedale would increase overall by about five hectares or so. In the Greater York area? Erm no outside Greater York. Outside Greater York yes. I th I think outside Greater York we could probably cope with that. Yes. The figures we were given this morning indicate that in within the Greater York area, the increase would be from sixteen point three to twenty point six. Mhm. I mean, Ian Smith, Ryedale. We're already accommodating erm Yeah. forty three hectares of land in Greater York anyway, erm I'm not sure how we would accommodate much more with a very tight greenbelt on the erm the sites that we've actually allocated on our side of Ryedale and take account of greenbelt so . Mr Allenby? Chairman, David Allenby, Harrogate Borough Council. No I don't think it would cause us er any real problems, we're talking about er an increase of about five hectares, my understanding, er I think that could be accommodated er in line with what we already intend to do erm in the local plan anyway. My arithm my arithmetic makes it about nearly fourteen hectares. I think that's a Am I interpreting these columns wrongly Mr Potter? Fifty one point nine nine to sixty five point seven five? Yeah, sixty five point seven five er the rest of the district. Yeah, yeah . If if you add on the Greater York requirement of thirty hectares it goes up to about ninety five hectares. Yeah, yeah. So overall it's only about five hectares. Five thank you. Yeah it's five. Okay, yeah. Mr Jewitt. Michael Jewitt, Hambleton District Council. Er well chairman it doesn't really affect the Hambleton figure. Erm the worker density figure really relates to the job gap calculation erm which for Hambleton showed substantially less than the seventy hectares provided for in er the proposed policy, it showed thirty one hectares. Er if the council didn't have any confidence erm in this figure but if erm you apply the er revised worker dens density to the thirty one hectares, you get thirty nine hectares, which reduces the gap Yeah. between the job gap Yeah. calculation and the land-take calculation so it wouldn't present us with any erm particular No, no. problems. In fact you're happy with your seventy hectares? Er absolutely. Thank you. Mr Laycock? Yes I think you can guess what the Harrogate Civic Society is Yes I can. but er if er we would oppose the recalculation on the basis of the lower density Yes, yes. most of the jobs that are likely to be needed in the s in the Harrogate area would be office or administrative jobs where a higher density would survive. Yeah. Thank you. Now erm yeah, Craven? Sharon Watson, Craven District. Can I just er clarify a point? Erm the table nine that er the county produce this morning erm has erm a reassessed requirement for Craven based on erm economic activity monitor data,plus relocation allowances. Now we would be happy with the thirty three hectares for Craven, twenty five hectares Yes. support. You've made that clear yeah . Yeah . I just wondered whether that point . Er well there are still, come back to the county, can we now round off on the question of keep losing my crib sheet here the effect what effect if any will the proposed scale of provision have on adjoining areas in West Yorkshire. Mr Girt, you have er your chance, to kick off on this one. Thank you chair, Dave I take it I take it you're representing Leeds or are you speaking also on behalf of your colleague from Bradford? I'm speaking on behalf of Leeds City Council. Right thank you. Erm you'll recall the City Council's objection was both to the level and the distribution of employment land in North Yorkshire, er in particular as far as it relates to the likely effects on regeneration in West Yorkshire and in Leeds in particular. You've heard before that Leeds works within the rules of the framework set down by regional planning guidance, and that makes very and the main stream of that guidance is the revitalization of our inner areas. Regeneration's still a major problem in Leeds, if I could just give you some some rough and ready figures chairman. A quick calculation suggests there are over a hundred and sixty brown field sites of an industrial type and they amount to something like three hundred and sixty hectares. So we got a very substantial problem still to overcome in Leeds. I haven't heard yet from anybody that regeneration's properly been taken into account in the calculations within local level or county level. It simply hasn't been demonstrated that any cognizance has been made of R P G two, therefore that these concerns still remain on the table. Can I have, can I have a county response to that point? David Potter, North Yorkshire County Council. Erm perhaps I can turn the the question on its head and and I think the way the County Council's looked at it, what would be the implications of not providing for the needs of North Yorkshire, and that's I think the approach that we have taken in the first instance, is to try and determine what the needs of North Yorkshire are and to borrow a phrase from Professor Lock, in strategic terms to look at er try to achieve full employment in North Yorkshire. That has been a primary objective. Are you arguing Mr Girt that the level of provision of employment land proposed by North Yorkshire County Council is excessive, bearing in mind your request that the County Council should at the same time cater for one hundred percent of past migration trends, including that coming from the Leeds Metropolitan Area? Or are you saying that the level of provision the County Council propose for employment is excessive bearing in mind that they do not propose to cater for one hundred percent migration? Erm, Dave Girt, Leeds City Council. make it look simpler than that. We're simply saying that it's not been demonstrated that regeneration of West Yorkshire's been taken into account. We're not saying the figure's necessarily excessive, we're simply looking to see how regeneration of West Yorkshire's been taken into account, if at all. And then we can be in a position to to judge. And how, how Erm figure er to some extent is plucked from the air, it's a figure in excess of the two basic ingredients of the job gap and the take-up trend er ingredients to the formulation of the figure. Other Other aspects necessarily need to be taken into account. And Leeds acknowledges that one of the things the other things that needs to be taken into account by North Yorkshire if if R P G two is to be conformed with, is the need to revitalize West Yorkshire. But I'm sorry, I think it's necessary for me to pursue the point I was making. If the panel is satisfied and indeed you are satisfied that the level of provision in North Yorkshire is necessary to provide employment for those persons who will be resident in North Yorkshire, what is the problem? Well, if the panel's satisfied, Madam, chair erm there's no problem. At the end of the day each district, Metropolitan District and County District will want some freedom to determine its figures. We're simply saying it's government policy that North Yorkshire takes account of the regeneration needs of West Yorkshire. At the moment there's no indication that they've done anything, it's almost as though that particular prescription was . I sense that you are suggesting the County Council should have done more than write a paragraph or two in the explanatory memorandum of alteration number three, which say we have had regard to the regeneration needs of West Yorkshire? Nevertheless we have arrived at the same figures. Dave Girt, Leeds City Council. Yes it wasn't more than a token reference. We need to see that they have taken it into account. What so far as they have made some er adjustment, we will be able to judge whether the scale of adjustment they've made was a was a reasonable thing. I'm sorry. Can you be more explicit about what it is you want to see in the North Yorkshire structure plan? I'm not,City Council, I'm not sure that I can be more specific about we need to see some reference and some indication of some adjustment to a calculation of er employment land allocation. In other words what I take I mean what you're looking for is a reduction or what you would have liked to have seen a reduction in the land allocation for employment needs, and yet in the other breath you are saying to North Yorkshire, you should really cater for one hundred percent migration. Now you can't have it both ways, surely? Dave Girt, Leeds City Council. We're not asking R P G two has to have it both ways if if that idea is er is there at all. Mr Williamson. Yes thank you chairman. Take us out of this maze. I'm not sure I can take you take you out of it . Ken Williamson North Yorkshire County Council. Er all I can say chairman is that the County Council is is working within the approved structure plan strategy which is based on restraint, based primarily on housing restraint but I think that's what the County Council has done in its er employment land proposals is to set certain parameters which appear to us to really reasonably meet requirements of this authority's resident population. Erm we are not going any further than that erm we the debate this morning erm we were looking at the differences between ourselves and then for example Selby District of what what they would like to see which was er certainly more than growth oriented the County Council's proposals are. Erm we've feel we've gone as far as it's practical to go to to meet erm what are after all the genuine needs of genuine needs of our own population. Now if we don't do that of course we er we're going to change lots of patterns, we're going to potentially increase er commuting out of the area into Leeds, that's not something which we feel is consistent with er planning policy guidance in the realm erm, I don't think there's anything as far as I know in R P G two which er says that adjoining authorities around West Yorkshire shouldn't er seek to make provision reasonable provision for their own er residents' needs. Dave Girt, Leeds City Council. No there is . Dave Girt, Leeds City Council. No there isn't a specific statement in er R P G two. There is a statement that asks and directs the County Council to take account of the need to r revitalize West Yorkshire and as far as we can see that hasn't been done. Now I I don't want to tell the County Council how to do it, I mean I think that's that's up to the County Council But I'm begging you to tell the panel how to do it please. Well it's not my job. As I understand it a and please correct me if I've got it wrong, in the interests of the Leeds Metropolitan Area, you have argued that North Yorkshire should make greater provision for residential . Is that correct? Yes . You have also argued that any generation of increased commuting should be avoided. Is that correct? Madam, chair, we would certainly wish to commuting as far as that's possible. D does is not follow from that that you would argue that North Yorkshire to av to achieve those two ends needs to make adequate provision for the employment of the people it will house? Dave Girt, Leeds City Council. I think it's a question of degree. Commuting will continue, the the boundaries of local government areas bear no relation to social geography. Leeds City Council does not expect within its plan period nor does it expect within the period of the North Yorkshire alterations, commuting will disappear. It will continue, but the kinds of jobs which are available in Leeds city centre, er in in some ways are unlikely ever to be provided in particularly in rural districts, precisely because Leeds is the regional capital. Some of those Yes. jobs are not jobs you would expect to find in villages or large towns Can I just so commuting will always continue. Yes. Can I put it another way to you, that if houses are provided for people who have migrated from West Yorkshire to North Yorkshire, that the failure to provide for employment of an equivalent level, because I well appreciate we are not going to stop Mr Laycock driving or commute I beg your pardon commuting each day from Harrogate to Leeds, that failure failure to provide an adequate level of employment for those new residents would be contrary to the advice in P P G twelve and P P G 14 about reducing the need to travel? I accept, Dave Girt, Leeds City Council, yes I accept that that would be consistent with the government's advice in those particular P P Gs. Now could I could I just er enlighten that? Yes of course. Erm you you bring me onto the second dimension of Leeds' objection which is to do with the distribution of those jobs. Leeds has asked that migration continue to be accommodated in Craven, Harrogate and er Hambleton but we've objected to the idea of a new settlement in Selby and our main concern is with major employment focused in the Leeds York corridor, and that's the substance of our objection. The scale of employment suggested in Selby seems not to be er reflecting the restraint policy suggested in R P G two. Now to some extent our concerns have been diffused, it seems that we misunderstood the distribution, er we now know, thanks to this morning that the hundred and forty five hectares for Greater York is on the inside edge of the York greenbelt and not footloose in the Leeds York corridor. Yeah. Erm to that extent Leeds concerns are much diminished. I'm I'm a little unclear exactly how much footloose allocation remains in Selby, I I er think I understand it to be quite small, taking account of , but I would simply say to the panel Leeds' concern is that we should not be a counter focus in that corridor, which er most most greatly bear on our attempts to regenerate our inner areas and use our our many brown field sites. Yeah that's okay. Mr Cunnane, and then Mr Heselton and then Mr Williams. Er Joe Cunnane, J C Cunnane Associates. Erm the point I would like to make is is is in part made by Mr Girt, and that is that er with particular reference to Selby. Er Selby have as I und as I can see it today, failed to establish any need for the bid for two hundred two hundred and fifty hectares which they've put forward. The figure which has been put forward by the county of a hundred and twenty two hectares for Selby deals with three elements. It deals with local need, it deals with planned migration and it deals with unemployment. And therefore it must by definition be the case that anything over and above the one hundred and twenty two which I know Selby have not challenged on on on the basis of the assessment, er anything over and above that hundred and twenty two must siphon investment and economic activity from somewhere else because it's not local, it's not it's not unemployed, it's not local needs and it's not migration. And our concern is that if that figure is appro is is agreed or recommended by the panel or it's gonna to be taken by the county that there is something in the order of a hundred and thirty hectares of employment land which is going to take investment from somewhere. It may not be from West Yorkshire but it's very likely that it will be. It could be from South Yorkshire. Mr Heselton? Er thank you sir. Erm Terry Heselton, Selby District. Erm in response first to Mr Mr Cunnane's point. Erm cos I I think Mr Mr Potter and others have already referred to the fact that it there's no evidence as yet that er demand is being siphoned off from from West Yorkshire to Selby. Erm coming back to Mr Mr Girt's points erm if we can't satisfy him in terms of what we've already submitted to the panel satisfy him in in terms of our actions. Er for the panel's information, Selby District er at any rate has not objected to Leeds City's proposals in in their U D P for development in within their administrative area which as I mentioned this morning are very substantial. Er approximately eight hundred hectares I think, and I suppose the cynical amongst us might might say what has the allocation of of nearly a hundred hectares of land adjacent to the A one, some of which is in in greenbelt, what has that got anything to do with the er vitality of of Leeds commercial centre or urban regeneration, but we accept that's a that's a matter for Leeds, we not objecting to their proposals. But by by the same token, as as I've already set out in in my submission, we we believe there is an urgent need and a justifiable demand in Selby District and that's partly related to the need to have a distribution of available employment opportunities throughout the district. Er much reference has already been made to this er golden corridor between Leeds a and York and I I really fail to see th that it is going to pose the the threat that some people think it will and and the analysis that we've carried carried out has has thrown up two two figures, one in the region of twenty er a need of twenty to twenty five hectares in what describe as a northern centre based on on Tadcaster and I think we acknowledge that er we may struggle to achieve those twenty to twenty five hectares in and around Tadcaster, partly because of greenbelt constraint and and partly because of other constraints. And coming back to the twenty to twenty five hectare requirement within Greater York, as I've already mentioned most of that is is in fact al already committed so I I really don't see the problem in in the Leeds York corridor. Thank you. Before before Mr Williamson sums up, we've one or two questions. In relation to policy I five if I may. And in posing these questions I well appreciate that the terms in which I five is presented are exactly those in the approved structure plan, with the exception of the deletion of the specific references to certain town centres and provision. Nevertheless Sorry are you talking about I twelve? I beg your pardon, I twelve. Nevertheless undaunted, since things have moved on a bit since nineteen eighty seven, I suppose what I'm looking for is some guidance as to the way in which policy I twelve has operated in practice. And if I can identify some of the thoughts which occurred to me and they are relatively minor points about the wording of I five in relation to the first two criteria. Would significantly improve the scale and range of local job opportunities. Have there been any difficulties in the interpretation and application of that policy in relation to the scale of what is really there on the ground? I think for example of the sensitivity of some of the small market towns, the point for example that was made to us last week about the sensitivity one settlement with which I've come increasingly familiar over the last fortnight and that is town centre. Is that a problem, or is it not a problem? The second thought is in relation to the second criteria, in view of the move of government policy in particular P P G 4 would it be helpful sensible to include the word under-used in terms would increase the use of vacant under- used or derelict premises and sites? And my final point is in effect a question. Do do these criteria operate independently or do they all have to be met to be acceptable? And a final thought, did I say the last one, that one Yes. was the final thought? This is this is the final final thought. No it isn't, it's gone. Professor Lock would erm have something to say if I raised the final one so I shan't do that. Mr Potter. David Potter, North Yorkshire County Council. Erm I think I ought to be brief on this. One of the problems with I twelve and the numerical content of I twelve is that it's very difficult to differentiate between offices and services, it's proved impossible to monitor. We have no information on the way in fact the way in which I twelve worked. Er when it comes down to application at the local sense then at the local level, I think my colleagues might be able to er give more enlightenment on that. In, with regard to the change of wording, erm I think that would probably add to the policy rather than detract from it and I I think the conclusion I would come to is that the criteria are independent they're not and or or. Er I think that's all I can say on it. Thank you for that. Do any of the District Planning Officers want to comment? Mr Curtis. David Curtis, York City Council. Erm clearly in York we are dealing with a different scale of of urban centre than the one the Senior Inspector was referring to. All I would say that er notwithstanding the conservation constraints within the city centre, we have not found this policy erm unhelpful as it were, we have been able to conform with the terms of this policy and allow appropriate levels of er commercial development within the city centre. And I would also support Mr Potters in the addition of the under-used term would I think be beneficial to the policy. Thank you. Mr Jewitt? Thank you chairman. Er Michael Jewitt, Hambleton District Council. Erm with reference to er Easingwold. Erm the si the iss er the point raised by the Senior Inspector. I I would say it's not been an issue, erm in the small market towns and i the er criterion erm I therefore has not presented problems er to Hambleton. I would say though erm that erm if we were faced with er significant erm office er proposals that generated er generated a significant number of jobs then er the environmental issues would be weighed by the policies in the plan and er they would need to be weighed against the job creation. Erm I don't think er on balance I don't think that that criterion causes any problems. Thank you. Er policy I twelve I don't think has caused us any particular problems in Skipton which is where the main office developments have been er taking place, I think I would reiterate some of the comments Yeah. that Mr Jewitt made. Erm the inclusion of under-used land in er criterion number two I think would be helpful. Can I say don't feel obliged to answer if if I take it that your silence means acquiescence then I'm quite happy. Mr Allenby? David Allenby, Harrogate Borough Council. I just wanted I was trying to rack my brain to see when er we've had real regard to this policy It must be a good Do you do you want to rephrase that? Yes erm when this policy has been a significant issue in dealing with either the local plan or er planning applications, erm the sort of locational aspects are important, the the existing policy in the structure plan did have some sort of control over the the number of jobs, but it's as as David Potter has said, it's been very difficult to monitor er the level of jobs being provided, and in practice it's been really impossible to implement that aspect of of the policy. Erm I don't think that the poli ha policy has caused us any problems in the past and I don't think the policy as proposed now will cause us any problems either. Yeah. Can I put it another way, has it got more benefits than dis- 5 Erm, D Yes. Thank you. Mr Williamson or Mr, sorry Mr Laycock did you want to say something? thanks Mr chairman an or between one and two and an and between two and three please. You want an or between one and two Yes. and an and between two and three. Comments please. That's making it er or well it's or and isn't it? Mr chairman that it should comply with three and one of the other two. Yeah, yes, yes, yes. Mm. I I took Mr Jewitt's contribution or comment really on that to to almost confirm the way in which you suggested the additional wording, but I paused. I'm sorry chair Michael Jewitt, Hambleton. I'm sorry chairman, you've lost me there I Well you said that er as I recall, that if you had a major proposal say for example within the centre of Easingwold, Yes, yes of course. then you would take account of environmental issues. What Mr Laycock is suggesting is that a proposal will significantly improve or Yeah. so you've the flexibility there. Yeah well I I would suggest that criterion three is perhaps implicit in the other policies of the plan and may not be Yeah. needed Yeah. in any event. Mm. Yeah. Alright. Mr chairman if we do leave out number three it would be suggests that one and two are exceptions to the rest of the policies. Mm. Yes. Yeah. We we take the point. Mr I think we can sorry Professor Lock. David Lock sir, it's like a game of poker this, I wasn't sure how long to sit there with my face straight. Erm the fact of the matter is sir as you'll have detected from today's earlier discussions it rather suits me policy I twelve because it gives a local authority the ability to plan for employment development in addition to their I five allocation. Erm however erm it it does sound as though it's one of these policies where as I suspected and said earlier today that it really doesn't have any effect on anything and it's probably something that could be erm crossed out and nobody would even notice it had gone. However as the you've heard so much needed Mm. provision for employment land made under policy I five. And that would put into that policy the flexibility that we have been given orally today and which Selby and myself and I think Richmondshire I'm not sure, were were erm seeking for a local plan level determination. Thank you. Mr Curtis. Mr Curtis? Thank you chairman, David Curtis, York City Council. Just just a little bit concerned about the suggestion that I twelve might actually be dropped in that it is my understanding and Mr Potter hopefully will confirm this, that in calculating the land requirements of I five, he has specifically excluded Yes. activities that would be covered by I twelve, therefore if you removed I twelve you would require recalculation of the Yeah. areas under I five. I think if I was about say Professor Lock that if I twelve was dispensed with you might notice a difference in terms of the application of I five. Yes. Thank you. Can we move now to summing up by North Yorkshire? Yes, alright. And there was the er question which we posed at two o'clock, which was your reaction, reflections on the method of calculation of land provision that Professor Lock floated this morning. Er David Potter, North Yorkshire County Council. I was rather hoping you'd forgotten that one. As as I see it er it's and I I may be corrected on this, Professor Lock's hypothesis is that we over-provide land and then limit release once an Yes. agreed level of jobs is achieved. Erm having considered this, I think that what we've tried to do in the economic activity projections is to try and estimate job need and to try and balance that with an appropriate level of provision to meet that need. If we were to deliberately over-provide, then I think it would be difficult to put a brake on this once a certain level of jobs had been reached, once the land is committed, there is a certain certainty attached to that commitment and I wonder how that would sit with the er guidance on development plans. Mm. Mm. Er secondly, land could be allocated to meet a range of needs in a variety of locations and after monitoring, if we had met a certain level of job targets, those jobs may be on a limited number of sites. We may be in the position where the jobs are not necessarily all in the right place. All the sites that are left are those which are better related to the urban areas or where the needs are. Erm market demand will take the easier site to develop first. Er and thirdly I think I've covered that already, it's it perhaps fails to provide the certainty which we the development plan system is supposed now to to . I think it might tax the policy writers' ingenuity to write it. I think the the problem that we've already tried to address today is how to calculate the need. Mm. Thank you. Now do you want to round up. Thank you chairman. Ken Williamson, North Yorkshire County Council. Chairman, I don't really want to say very much er by way of rounding up I think that we've had a very significant er debate here today, there's been a lot of discussion on very important issues, erm I think throughout that we we've managed to get er a certain number of of issues really er in my view at least anyway sorted out. Erm what I would ask the panel to to look at first of all is the fact that the erm the proposals for I five and I twelve appear to be largely acceptable over quite a large area of the the county. We've heard erm quite a lot of support from most of the Districts er and there's been no er particular sort of opposition to to what we've been proposing er in those particular areas from any other source. Now Greater York chairman, er we've had an interesting discussion this morning, the, what I would say there is the allocation of a hundred and forty five hectares to Greater York is in fact the product of several years of of quite detailed study by the Greater York authorities on on a joint basis. Er a lot of effort's been put into it, er we believe that it is erm certainly feasible, it's consistent with the local strategy of restraint within this alteration is is placed and again the figure is is supported by all the the Greater York authorities. Er I think it's also worth noting again chairman here that er in fact most of the hundred and forty five hectares that we've been talking about er is in fact already committed Mm. in in some way or other. Perhaps I could just inject here the the one of the more recent elements of the discussion which was the er issue of er changing worker densities er to calculate land requirements. Erm in in the context of Greater York, should you wish to to base your recommendations on er such a change, erm I don't believe that would cause the County Council any problems, and you heard from round the table that I think the the districts are quite happy on on that score as well. On the issue of Selby which er took quite a lot of time er I think it was an important area er bearing in mind the different views that have been expressed. I think really I can only repeat the County Council's position here chairman that we we do have sympathy with er the District Council's position and the particular problems that the District Council have to face. Nevertheless having said that, er I would say that the County Council's moved as far as it believes it possibly can do to to meeting some of the requests of the the district in providing what we consider a generous, and what other people might consider a overly generous allocation of land. We don't feel we could really realistically go any further within the context of the strategy again with the alterations it is placed within. Chairman I think it is important in setting the level of provision, erm that there is in fact a need to balance the requirement for flexibility against the the risk of over-provision and the consequences of that. Erm the County Council believes that its position is i is more or less correct in terms of the balances that Mhm. need to be achieved there. I was pretty happy actually this morning to hear er Mr Cunnane almost agreeing with us on our figure. Erm I I know it was in the context of a a question you posed to him that er if he had in fact er accepted the County Council's housing figures er that would have been an appropriate hundred and twenty two hectares would have been appropriate er on the employment side. On Harrogate, erm I think the discussions have clarified a lot of the the sort of outstanding issues that that er were between perhaps the County Council and erm Professor Lock, er not so much between ourselves and Harrogate, although we have the the issue, and I think if I read it right, this could well be er the only issue that is between us in the Harrogate area, the issue of the strategic sites. Er we appear sort of miraculously to have got round all the other ones, er to fair bit of er Mr Potter's involvement on our part. Richmondshire, chairman I I think we er dealt with that fairly fairly readily, erm I th , a change if you were to recommend that er to meet the district's case, erm I don't think that would be likely to cause any any harm to the County Council's strategy and er that's exactly what Mr Potter er did say not too long ago. I don't really want to to comment on the last issue really, I think we've probably said enough on that, er the the issue of the effect on West Yorkshire. We certainly don't believe that that will will be the case erm, I suspect personally that er their own policies and proposals probably have more harm in in the issue on the issues of urban regeneration of perhaps North Yorkshire as well. Thank you chairman. Thank you very much. Er thank you very much for your contribution today I, we've found it extremely useful. Erm for those who we shall not see tomorrow, may I thank you for your presence, your contributions, that's Mr Cunnane, Mr Laycock and Mr Girt. Thank you very much. The rest of you I'll see you in the morning at ten o'clock. Hello, well come in. Oh You're not married yet? Yes. Cos changing doctors and I'm not changing. You're a bad woman. I know cos I'm in now, and you don't do , Ah. so I'm not changing . Well curly what can we do for you? It's my back. What have you done to it ? Now I don't know if it's my back or my neck. I don't know. I got a prescription last week, Mhm. And I don't know where I put it. Right so I just stopped at the paracetamol, and I says, Och, I'd better not go back up. Where's it sore ? Between my shoulder blades, it's also at the bottom of my spine just now and again. It's, I'm really really busy at work, I'm at a warehouse, and I don't know if I've maybe caught a muscle. It sounds like it. It sounds like that but I can feel like a sort of gritting, See that in the back of my neck. that big muscle from there right down the back of you. It's, I can't sleep at night. Oh I know. You appear to enjoy this. I know. From just down about there. Aha . Aye, aye, aha. I know I'm going down and down. It's not as bad as my head but it's sore , What about there? it's If I do that Aye, that's how, where I knew it wouldn't wanna go there. Ah. Right. See when I'm walking I can actually hear something in the back of Aye, creaking. my neck. That's right. Come on, let's turn you into a human being for wee while again. I hope so, as long as I get a sleep at night, I don't care what you're giving me. There you can still. I know, I'm just, never been able to call out the doctor . Eh now this is strong stuff, never take it on an empty stomach. Never. Right? Right. You have been warned, you have been warned. Don't let your father get these. But he'll want them all ? Yeah. Great. There's a good painkiller in those and there's the stuff to scatter the bruising as well. Good. Take two in the morning before you go out and two before you go bed at night. Two in the morning, two at night, Aye. so I've got to have my breakfast first? Aye,. Right. Right, when I says I've got . I hope so. chance to . I hope so . Right, okay Lorraine, cheerio now. back issues have turned out some previous lectures but you can pick them up afterwards rather than now. Today still unfortunate cos you've got a two page handout. Why? Cos they do little trees on them which takes space. Er, well this, this is the last week at Kings term which means that this is the last lecture in this series so if you come back next week you'll be disappointed. Erm the service continues next term with me starting and then Mike taking over half way through and what I'll be doing is supplying the general two theoried two theoretic semantics that I've been talking about erm two specific instructions in a natural language I can get what six definite descriptions and names something like that. So today I'm going to talk about notions of structure or about sentence structure and logical form, so point one a reminder something that I keep saying, knowledge of language is knowledge of a bod a body of rules that assign phonological, syntactic and semantic properties to words and sentences. Thanks. You've got a box in your head and it's got rules of those three types, at least those three types . Erm now, something that puzzled me for quite a long time when I started out doing philosophy of language er one or two years ago erm frequently you hear claims or we hear claims to the effect that this is a logical form of this sentence or this is the structure of this sentence, or this is the semantic structure of this sentence and I was never quite sure what that actually meant erm it's partly because apart from Davidson, erm a lot of people who write on these issues don't actually tell you what the background theory is and exactly what the point of the assignment of structured sentences is supposed to be, erm however after thinking about it for a while, I've arrived at the following following general view there are at least three rather different enterprises er which might lead you to assign sentence structure and er one needs to figure out the relations between them. So point, sentence structure. There are three distinct projects logic, syntax and semantics which might lead you, which do lead you to assign structures to sentences. Logical structure accounts for certain inferential relations among sentences. I'm gonna elaborate on all these a bit in syntax a lot as we proceed. Syntactic structure accounts for well and ill-formedness. Semantic structure accounts for the derivation of meanings of complex expressions from those of their components. It's not obvious a priori whether all or any pair of these projects converge on a single set of structures. And now just to spend the rest of the lecture elaborating on what I just said. So logic first erm point three. Logic needs to account for logical relations among sentences the sort that we'll learn about in elementary symbolic logic. For example, needs to account for why if the sentence P and Q is true, then so is the sentence Q and in order to do that it assigns a certain structure, for example as on the handout in my assigned structure and brackets P Q. Erm anyway erm it just has and has a separate particle operating on two distinct sentences that are not ordered syntax needs to account for the well-formedness of the structure, sorry P and Q. The ill-formedness of P Q and the similar grouping of and with or that is in English between sentences and where you can find one and find another but not with, not you don't say John loves Mary not Peter loves Jill. A slightly more subtle data the well-formedness of the following dialogue Sally likes Jill yes, and she likes Mary versus the ill-formedness of Sally likes Jill yes, she likes Mary and. Well what this suggests is that and she likes Mary accounts as a legitimate string with and at the beginning of the sentence, but she likes Mary doesn't, so you can't stick and at the end of the sentence. Thanks for . Okay, erm okay moving on to semantics, we're half way through point three. Semantics needs to account for our understanding of P and Q on the basis of our understanding of P, Q, and and. It might just assign a structure P and Q, three separate constituents between their structure. In each case the assignment is part of a large theory with its own particular data and goals. So it's a priori possible that the three projects don't converge. Erm okay I'm going to talk about syntax mostly erm is everybody happy with the, the role that the assignment of structure plays in, in logics and semantics? I'll come back to semantics a bit at the end. But if you remember your symbolic logics there should be no problems. That rules deduction rules of whatever kind er derivation rules or rules er applied to sentences in logic on the basis of the structure brackets what kind of connectives you have and so on. Okay. Semantic syntax and then afterwards the relation between syntax and semantics so I'm actually going to do some real syntax. Lesson one in syntax. Point four erm sentences are made up of noun phrases and verb phrases those phrases can be composed of intransitive verbs standing alone, or transitive verbs and objects so you can have four, the structure what sounds like Florence smiled actually has a structure as on the handout in the sentence composed of a noun phrase and a verb phrase, the noun phrase contains a single noun Florence and the verb phrase contains a single verb smile or you can have something like four two, Florence teased Dougal and there the verb phrase contains the verb teased and another noun phrase containing the single noun Dougal. Okay, that's the question is why, why does it have that structure? It might be that the subject noun and verb phrase go together to form a constituent, so you have Florence teased Dougal or the structure might not be that it might just be three separate constituents with no firm structure forming a further constituent, so why that structure? Okay, well I shall now give you evidence for that some which is straightforward, some which is a little bit more subtle. So point five, evidence for verb phrase structure. First of all ellipsis. This is where you drop something from a sentence or phrase and you leave a word or a phrase out. You can often allow a verb and an object together, but never a subject and a verb, so sentence three and five you can say Florence said she teased Dougal and she did, I E she did tease Dougal, but sentence four is ill-formed. Florence said she teased Dougal and Dougal, which is what you'd get if you allowed it and Florence teased, so you can allow teased Dougal, but you can't allow Florence teased. So here's the hypothesis to explain that ellipsis is confined to constituents where constituents are just what they sound like, genuine components of a larger thing which is signalled by sticking brackets, labelled brackets round them so they make a phrase and you can do certain things with them. Okay. Second, four B, erm the proform substitution where a proform is like a pronoun or a proverb or if you fancy a pro-sentence erm sentence five Florence teased Dougal, and Brian did so too did so means teased Dougal the sentence for that is a proform. That's fine but sentence six Florence teased Dougal, and did so Brian too doesn't sound right but notice that's exactly what you would get if you could substitute the proform for a subject verb construction and then it would mean Florence teased Brian too. Okay? C, the third piece of evidence idioms tend to be either whole sentences or noun phrases or verb object instructions, but never verb subject or rather subject verb instructions. When an idiom is just something that has the form of, has a certain apparent grammatical form but actually occurs just as a single unit of a fixed meaning, so it has no genuine semantic structure from which you can determine its meaning, for example kick the bucket means die and you don't get that in the meaning of kick the bucket. but notice kick the bucket appears as a verb phrase and eat humble pie, get your knickers in a twist and so on. So if you just generally think about the idioms like that, frozen pieces of language and fixed meanings you'll find they come in formed sentences and subject expressions and verb phrases but not subject verb. Could you say I walk, I walk? I walk? By idiom? Yeah. Erm well really it's just what I said, it's er roughly speaking it's when er a string of words doesn't have the meaning you'd expect on the basis of the standard semantics of the language, but rather has a fixed different meaning and whenever there's any apparent structure in it, I E several words, er, their, their normal meanings are irrelevant which is the meaning of the whole phrase. So like I said kick the bucket, the meaning of that idiomatically is just die, sorry die. It's a metaphorical meaning originally? Er, it might be I don't know in this particular case. It often comes about that way, it starts as a, a metaphor and then gets frozen. What do you mean subject verbs and ? Er what I actually mean is whenever you have an idiom, you can substitute in the position of a whole sentence or of a verb phrase, but you can't substitute it for a subject and a verb, leaving the object of the sentence intact. Yeah, so, so Okay then the general I'm for is that in a subject verb object sentence there's very important sense in which the verb and the object go together, they form one unit and one constituent of a sentence, whereas subject and verb don't. So in point of fact idioms is you'll find that they always fit in either this slot or in this slot, but you won't find an idiom which has to form such that if you remove the subject and verb from a sentence you can stick the idiom in there and it will make sense. You're the literary one. A, because it's not an idiom, and B even if it were it would be a whole sentence, because walk is intransitive. Well think about it I mean there might be one, in which case we have to do a little bit er dancing around Why doesn't the idiom just take the place of the verb, because if you get rid of the object as well? Well it's a verb phrase so erm they just, all that means is if you take a subject expression and well, what goes, what goes after such expression is a verb phrase, that my opinion not just you know . So, although in all these three, kick the bucket, eat humble pie, get your knickers in a twist er all look like fairly complex transitive constructions. They look as though they they don't really they actually intransitive. So that's okay, the point is that they can substitute in a sentence intransitive verb or transitive verb object grammatic How about erm God smiled upon John, God smiled upon someone? Er Meaning he was talented. Mm, yeah, good. I don't know, I'll think about it. Very good Well unfortunately if they're idioms, then they do. God smiled upon him, er idiom? It does seem to be doesn't it? Because if you substitute something into the God, it doesn't really work or smiled upon fortune smiled upon him. Fate smiled upon him. Yeah, it's not an idiom. Notice it really isn't smiled upon, smiled upon is one, is the idiom. so that's just a, a verb and then you can put, put in anything such that if such thing smiles upon you, you are blessed, God, destiny, fate, fortune. I'm sure there are things about Well there might be er and that's the trouble when one starts doing philosophy and there's real study of language, it gets really difficult. Erm okay, moving on to point six, and now we soon get a little bit fancy. This is more evidence for the claim that you get a verb phrase in a sentence erm, but it introduces, er it's also an example of how you can account for grammatical phenomena in terms of er structural relations in sentences and large expressions. So, point six erm okay look at the sentences one and two under six, one is apparently ill-formed, herself left, except in I think some Irish dialects actually yes, well it has a rather special meaning where herself is given special status erm in the context, but in normal English, English herself left is ill-formed, but two, Florence saw herself is fine herself is a reflective pronoun refers that herself each other or one another, the other are reflective pronouns. Erm and then if you move on to sentences four and five underneath them er anyone left is ill-formed, but no one saw anyone is fine. Still, ideas that the reflective pronoun herself and the item anyone which is called a negative polarity item, the item anyone needs to have something else in the sentence in order to license them they can't just occur freely in the normal position for er nouns, even though they are nouns. So Florence licenses herself and Florence herself and no one licenses anyone in anyone. Okay, but the item that licenses them the other licensing sentence you need in order to license these items, you can't just go anywhere in the sentence so sentence three, herself saw Florence is no good, even though Florence is there, it's in the wrong place relative to herself and similarly six, anyone saw no one is no good, even though no one is in the sentence. So what we need to do is you need to figure out what kind of items license erm reflects the pronouns like herself and make it a polarity items like anyone. What kind of items license them and where do they have to be in the sentence. Well the position the relative position is to find in terms of pre-structural notions. Erm, okay the notation for Flo Florence teased Dougal is it can be expressed, converted directly into the explicit tree notation on the handout. That just depicts the same structure in terms of constituents and sub-constituents, so the whole thing is a sentence which in the bracketing notation just has the sentence with its bracket and the other bracket's way down the other end, and this is mirrored by the label sentence occurring at the top of the tree, it means it covers everything below it roughly. The sentence is divided into noun phrase and a verb phrase and so on verb phrase . That's just a bracket notation made more explicit. Okay, we can now define certain pre-structural relations which we'll then use to explain the behaviour of things like herself so it's only over okay, and node X dominates a node Y right, where a node is the point where a label appears, sentence node,node and so on. So node X quote dominates a node Y if and only if there's a path leading down the tree from X to Y. It's straightforward, just means it's higher up in the tree, and there's a path connecting them. Okay, we can now define a further notion called C command the phrase X C commands a phrase Y, if and only if A neither of X nor Y dominates the other so neither is directly above the other and in the path and B, the first branching node is dominating X, also dominates Y so let's find out if X and C commands to Y, you go up the tree from X and you find the branching node, the first branching node dominating X and see if that node also dominates Y. Okay. Well I've just defined it as constructural notion and am now going to show the point, having done that. What C command really is is a scope, it's er syntactic correlate in the notion of scope from logical semantics. No, I don't think C means anything. It's erm terminology it comes along with government binding. Dominant. Which is if, I mean when he was giving lectures in government and binding,people would invited him would put up posters saying government and binding so he got all the wrong audiences. It was quite a serious problem I mean that you, you get hundreds and hundreds of people in a room to get jobs to talk about politics and he'll start Okay. What's the point for a C command? Well, well the main point is that actually it's the proper, er syntactic definition of scope and, but in this context it'll explain stuff about, er negative polarity pronouns. Yeah. Yeah. So if you look at the tree T one okay. Florence C commands both saw and herself because if you go up the tree from Florence you find the first branching node, that's the S node and that dominates both saw and herself. Okay and saw C commands herself because if you go up the tree from saw to the first branching node, you'll find that branching node also dominates herself. Okay, but saw doesn't C command Florence because the first branching node dominated saw, it's a verb phrase and that doesn't dominate Florence, it's on the wrong branch. Okay, so the, the reflective pronouns require a C commanding antecedent, antecedent really is just a noun phrase from which it can get its reference like herself back to Florence. Florence er C commands Florence Er er yeah I think it does actually erm, yeah cos Florence doesn't dominate Florence and the first branching node dominates Florence dominates Florence erm, Okay, now I've just used this one example, but if you look at erm each other and one another there is also a reflective pronoun to find that they work in the same way in the appropriate antecedents and it also works for quantifier pronoun relations every girl admires herself which is fine but herself admired every girl doesn't make a whole lot of sense. So I just picked two examples, but you'll find that they generalize a some interest. Okay, negative polarity items, that's the anyone case, they require a C commanding trigger, so if you go on to tree T two, no one saw anyone, no one C commands anyone but notice if you reverse that and you had anyone saw no one, with no one in object position, anyone subject position no one would then not C command anyone. So that would predict what we found, that anyone saw no one is ill-formed. This also generalizes er the trigger, is basically some kind of negative element. People, I don't think anybody really knows how to define the notion of trigger properly, but there's always some negative connotation like no one erm and you can say I don't like anyone, but you can't say I like anyone. Well you can actually, but you can't say I like you any more but you can say I don't like you any more. Erm, well C commands roughly it's just a noun phrase, which can endow the pronoun with a reference or an interpretation, so if Florence saw herself Florence is a noun phrase and gives herself the reference Florence. It does work for quantifiers Every doe saw herself and there the interpretation of herself is like in logic. Every X, X doe X saw herself cos all the does are standing around looking at the lake, seeing their reflections so there is just a quantifier. Herself works very much like a variable from logic. Erm Right, no one itself isn't a negative polarity item negative polarity item is the one that needs to be licensed by something else. Given them the negative polarity item I give a damn. I don't give a damn. Actually the trouble is the grammatic ones is people deliberately messing about, especially Americans. How about erm the grim reaper called upon you can't do that the same thing as God smiled upon? The grim reaper called upon. Yes, it's different because the First of all the grim reaper grim reaper's just a name for a fictional being and I think that is a normal Yeah. It just means the grim reaper has been called upon probably just means called upon. since you know what the grim reaper does when he or she calls upon you. Yeah, but whole thing is an expression and you can change the object. I think you can change also, expressions But that doesn't mean Well, maybe. Well let's say this, okay I just don't accept it. I mean let's say this erm, let's say that erm erm the crow sang his name, was an idiomatic expression meaning er that his time was up, he was, he was, he died, so he sang his name. Erm, now you couldn't do that with that and that sounds intuitively like the kind of expression that we might have, just because I can't think of one doesn't mean that But that's a whole sentence Erm, the grim erm, the, the crow sang John's name, the crow sang James' name do you know what I mean? And that doesn't sound funny at all. We must have some like that. Erm Well that's tricky, because the, the object isn't what goes in here erm it's actually the whole thing. Yeah. The crow's name. But that doesn't destroy I mean as soon as the class is over, I'll think of one, that's the problem, or in the middle of the night Mm well maybe, I mean to come up with a, a clear example. It doesn't matter a whole lot, I mean because the er, all it would show is that metaphors needn't take the form of constituents in sentences. Sorry, not metaphors, idioms, sorry. It wouldn't show that the verb phrase wasn't a constituent. And does this er, does this only matter when the subject have an object that, that is ? Because I mean there's plenty of epigrams like a rolling stone gathers no moss, but that's a subject not a verb, and it's actually saying something totally different, or every time Er about the situation and sort of used in a sense about somebody's situation. Yeah, it's just, just that's the whole sentence. Yes. A rolling stone gathers no moss. But it's and a verb which are idiomatic and are used. Well the whole, the whole thing is a single idiom in that case. I just wanna go over the form of the argument erm subject object. Now, the, there, it appears that there's a whole variety of phenomena er which suggests that sentence divides up in this way and that can be explained on hypothesis we just call such a division a constituent, and then we stipulate that, as certain operations can only apply to constituents. We suppose that's a rule in our minds and that explains our judgments about for example and proform substitution and so on that's so we define the notion of a constituent plus label it with brackets, and then we make certain predictions about operations that can or can't be performed on. Okay, now one of the predictions made is that metaphors to, sorry idioms to form into this plus. That might turn out to be wrong, but that wouldn't impugn the other data the stuff about, er proform substitutions and particularly erm the stuff about reflexive pronouns and polarity items, yeah, that's why it's not, it's not actually crucial. But of course if, if you start, if you find that the other evidence dissolves as well, then, then you give up eventually. Yeah, the whole sentence is, is a constituent itself er it and can be a constituent of larger sentences obviously. It's just that it's the yeah. It just can't be, be the, I mean if you think of all the, I mean like say you've got a, a, a sort of er cockney expression for if he's got syphilis might be something like you know Johnny Rotten's kissed him or something you know, there must be things like that, you know, there must be loads of things like that. You know, there must be loads of things like that. I mean that just sounds like familiar you know, I mean not that Ha? No, Johnny Rotten kissed object. Yeah, but it's what you're standing in, in well Yeah. The subject and verb stay the same the object subject and verb by themselves which Well Johnny Rotten kissed That's it, yeah Yeah, and then the idea is the verb you plug in there, whatever then you plug in there is fine. You then get a grammatical sentence and means this person. syphilis You're right, it doesn't sound odd, but then the question is why does this all really occur? It does really occur, I'm sure if it doesn't sound odd, it must occur If it doesn't sound odd, you'd expect it to occur. I'm sure it does. I know that. Yeah. how would you We'll be just like T two with no one and anyone reversed. Yeah, but Yeah, but the, the claim is that anyone needs to be licensed by the C commanding trigger which is no one and the point is that erm anyone will then not be C commanded by no one, because no one is too far down the tree. Erm but notice if you stick an if in, you have if anyone saw no one, then I'll be surprised,that does actually make sense. If nobody saw anybody yesterday I'd be amazed it's fine because if is the legitimate trigger and it would C command no one. Okay, erm, just carrying on quickly it's very hard to see how you could account for erm the stuff about reflectives and the polarity items if you didn't have the structures of the kind you get with T one and T two on verb phrases, erm and the reason's just erm you want that kind of a symmetry between say Florence and herself between their positions in the tree and no one and anyone except you can't reverse them, things like that. If you had less structure as in T three which is a ternary branching tree, instead of binary branching be just an N P B N P, it's real hard to see how you can account for the data. You can try it of course, you can try and use erm linear ordering and things like to explain the data just turns out often these doesn't work. So now point seven. Neither semantics nor logic requires V P structure, a priori, that is there's no particular reason why you'd expect verb phrase structuring in particular from either of those two enterprises, because either could get by with er either the flat structure Florence teased Dougal, that's the structure in T three three separate constituents, or teased Florence Dougal where teased is one constituent and Florence Dougal is another which is the way we most standardly do it calculus and that works fine. So erm, if you're looking, if you're looking for semantic structure, which is any structure such as and you then provide interpretations for parts of sentences and rules are getting sentence meaning from word meaning in the structure, you can get by with crude structures that don't discriminate very much and the same applies to logic. When you do syntactics, you get finer structures, more detailed, more complex. So now, what are the relations between them erm we talked about the logical bit last time, but about semantics and syntactics and point eight. Well here's an actual hypothesis to make, semantic structure just the syntactic structure. Why? Well, A, this would be an economical and elegant way for our knowledge of language to be organized. Syntactic structure does appear to be suitable for semantic purposes, one can develop compositional semantic rules that apply to syntactic structures. Basically because in syntax you get all the structure you need for semantics and some more, which doesn't do any harm. Now, suppose you are designing a language learning and using machine you really wouldn't want to have separate levels of structure for syntax and semantics. It would be pointless it would be messy it would be inelegant and it would create the problem of the relations between the two, you'd have to have transformations to get you from one to the other. So the first thing you'd expect on just by the false but enormously appealing principle that the world is simple and elegant, is there is just one level of structure there. It's a terrible thing actually, because you always pretty much er once they work, once they to the data and people still worry about it, why have rather than some other. They it's simple, it's nice, it's elegant and it's not an item at all unless you have a further premise that the world itself is simple, nice and elegant and you have no reason to believe that at all, but since that applies across all sides, I think linguistics is in no worse shape. Okay, secondly and more importantly eight B the idea that syntactic and semantic structure are the same, or rather that semantics just works over the syntactic structure, erm that would help solve the acquisition problem. Remember the acquisition problem infants acquire language on the basis of minimal evidence, that's called a poverty of stimulus problem, which I talked about a bit in lecture one or two. It's just it's very very very well, put it this way, children seem to learn language very very very very quickly and they've got very very very little data to go on when they learn the language. small number of sentences number that they come out understanding and that's rather mysterious So to explain just in general terms, you're interested in describing language in such a way that it's the kindest thing that's easy to learn, rather than hard to learn. That's the basic idea and the fact that we do actually learn, becomes less mysterious. So now, if syntactic and semantic structure are the same then both kinds of evidence, both semantic evidence and syntactic evidence will, will constrain the choice of structure. One of the things the kid's got to do learn his language sentence and in the context he can figure out what the sentence has to mean, like radical interpretation kid, the kid is sitting playing on the floor, a rabbit's bounced by and the mother goes . Okay. Erm, the kid's got to figure out if it's going to use that to project the other sentences then it might come across it's got to, it's gotta decompose that into structure. Right. That's one of the important tasks. Well, if there's only one level of structure then evidence about the and evidence of that meaning are both going to bear on that. the same structure. If there were two levels of structure, the task would be much much harder. Okay, so language would be much easier to learn if this hypothesis were true, rather than if it were not true. Er, for example? More or less yeah. Yeah, Are they a related meaning? I mean Yeah It might just be a case Yeah Yeah, obtained, just they're just photographs. Words that are spelt and sound the same just like and How about identifying the normal and identifying the philosophy? Erm what's that going to find the philosophy say? identify it. Er, well as in the English you'd probably say if you didn't study philosophy, you'd say were identified as Venus, but it's not the same thing. Er, yeah. It's just I mean as philosophy just very standardly takes words from ordinary language gradually gets a technical meaning, er which is different from the original meaning and then when ordinary speakers use it in the original meaning they get told off. Er, that's I mean, I think if you really, in these cases you have to count them as different words just like I mean maths and physics doesn't mean what maths used to mean in English. Energy certainly doesn't. necessary Necessary er all those things. It's hard, I mean it's, it's difficult to tell, difficult to decide when the meaning has actually changed it's a notoriously hard problem, which nobody really knows how to solve in the principle way. Nevertheless sometimes it clearly has and other times it clearly hasn't, so there does seem to be a line there, even if we don't yet know, we certainly have to draw it. Mm. Erm I don't know if I mean remember that in order to do any compositional semantic theory, you have to assign structuring. Remember the little truth theory that we did in lecture two or three, or when you do semantics in logic by swinging two model theories, when you interpret the expressions of a logical language, you have to assign a structure and, er the claim here is just that the natural language, that structure, structure that the semantic interpretation rules apply to, it's just the syntactic structure. Is that okay? Yeah, It does, I mean it's it wasn't clearly formulated until er about nineteen sixty eight I think by Gilbert Harman Davidson Davidson kind of claims this in semantics in natural languages which I suggested that you read, but Davidson puts the claim the other way round, that is there's no more syntax than that structure needs in semantics and that's just false, that's just false because you're not going to account for all the data I've been talking about, about verb phrases. Semantic structure? Er, yeah, it doesn't really er But Davidson actually makes the claim that you to assign no more structure than what's required by a truth theory just to get the coming out right. Don't ask me what truth theories. Okay. Davidson says, I think he actually claims all you need to do is, is to develop your compositional semantics to get the truth theories coming out right and that's the only notion of structure you need. He doesn't really, doesn't seem to have room for his idea of having independently motivated syntactic structure I don't know why cos simple idea, but I think But is it true about the semantic structure where you can say it hasn't got a verb phrase yeah. then the other one still has to have the equivalent of a C commanding although it's in a, in a different way. But you wouldn't have C command, I mean that if you take the first structure in seven, that's just the one in T three. Okay so now suppose you have Florence as the first noun in T three and herself no do it the other way round, suppose you had herself as the first noun and T three Florence okay then you'd find Florence does C command herself but it shouldn't Erm, Oh, right. Er say if you look in seven you've got er, say the . Yeah, that's erm actually, there's that's this structure Okay if you said the first one was saw, Mm. and er and the last I believe there was herself then er the middle item has got to be a particular type of item. Yeah, erm And it's then related in the same way as the C commanding er in fact Florence does C command herself here. Yeah. So that's er on the other hand, erm it would do if you also, if you'll reverse them herself Florence which would, which would presumably be herself saw Florence structure, but that's Yeah but that's ungrammatic . Yeah, but that's what I'm saying there's So that you'd have to you'd, you'd have to, well you don't, you don't because the thing is you want an asymmetrical relation between Florence and herself, because Florence or herself is okay and herself or Florence isn't. Here it's symmetrical. Yeah. Now, you, you could have the linear ordering that's an alternative proposal erm, but then you've actually got erm you've got to come up with a kind of proper account of these structures of how they come about and of the relation and then you've got to check it out against all the other data and all I can say is as it happens, I've tried that and it doesn't work but that's only and we want to find out if you can see that the quite a long way. So I mean by, by all means don't take any of this for, for granted. Yeah. Well you have to you have to decide if that really is structure, it may well be that it's a structure structure is the other way round in which case Just a second we've gotta re-arrange the furniture slightly here. Erm, I'm afraid the late-comers get the plastic chairs. That's okay. This is your punishment, okay? Hope they won't be too uncomfortable. erm, won't you start again because you'd only got a couple of minutes into it, hadn't you? Start again. Well done , excellent. Very clear and pretty complete account really of, of what I've you to cover but it was quite a lot of ground erm she went over and er some of it may be less easy to understand than other bits. Any, any questions to start off with? Yeah, okay, and can we go over what Okay,an and so what it said then was that ego, ego is where all these things come together Ya. and that repression was a way of leaving the ego free of anxiety? Yes, yes, that's right. I mean, this is a good point is a good place to start actually because the, the concept of the ego is the key to whole of this and the changed role of anxiety highlights the difference I think, I think rather, rather, rather clearly. What did Freud think anxiety was in, in what I call the first psychoanalytic revolution, the first period, the eighteen nineties? What was his view of anxiety then? Well, certainly sexual something. Specifically it was, he regarded it as kind of transmuted libido. But if, if libido was aroused by for example seduction in childhood it could go nowhere, it was repressed in the unconscious, where it transformed itself by some kind of psychological chemistry into anxiety. Now, clearly this theory has some problems. I think you can see what they were. But y I think you can also see the appeal of this to Freud in that time because in the early years Freud's model of the mind, which is really what we're talking about today, was erm a kind of hydraulic one. I mean th the, the analogy that occurs to me is of a dam holding back a raging torrent. The force of repression is like a great dam that holds back the raging torrents of the instincts of the unconscious and allows er some of them through, but others break through in holes, and holes and cracks appear which are the unconscious returning as one and what repression tries to do is to plug those holes and to keep the repressed repressed. So this leads to a kind of erm stratigraphic view of the mind, with the unconscious, which is everything that is permanently excluded from conscious consciousness by repression, the pre-conscious which is what is not currently conscious but is accessible to consciousness, you can recall it in other words, and the conscious is what you're presently aware of. So, that very simple view of the mind fits with this an idea of anxiety as forced back into the unconscious and then changing, sorry, as, as libido being forced back into the unconscious and then changing into anxiety. Now, that's what this kind of hydrographic or stratigraphic view in the nineteen twenties, as was telling us, Freud developed this famous model. And there, in order to understand this model, well let's put it this way, I think the easiest way to understand it is to start from the ego. It's a kind of egocentric model, not in the everyday sense of egocentric, that is selfish, but egocentric in the sense that it starts with ego as its reference point. Now, what is the ego in this technical Freudian sense? I mean, we all know what it is in everyday life. Well, let's start with the everyday meaning. What is it in everyday life? If you say someone's got a big ego, what do you mean? S er excellent, yes, very good way of putting it, erm, a sense for themselves. Okay. What does ego mean as a technical term in Freud's second model of the mind? Who would like to define all this. has already but could anybody gi give it in their own words? That's certainly part of it. Everything that is conscious is in the ego. That's certainly true, but is the ego wholly conscious? No. This is important. Er, is right, the, the area of the mind that is open to, for example, sensory stimuli to your ears and eyes, touch and so on , things that you're conscious of, is in your ego. However, your ego also en encompasses a larger unconscious part. So you can immediately see that it would be quite wrong to make the mistake that people sometimes do make and think that the second model of the mind is really just the first one given new terms and that the ego is equivalent to the conscious. It isn't completely equivalent. Everything that's conscious is in the ego, but not everything that is in the ego is conscious. In other words, the ego is more than just consciousness. So it goes beyond the original definition of the conscious that we talked about when we, when we did that. So, what else is there apart from what was talking about? What else have we to say about ego? Yes, but how does it do that ? Can you elaborate that a bit. That's a bit vague. How does it do this assimilating? What in particular does it ? Well, it seems to be the place where every erm every source every mental or cognitive psychological source seems to and then juggle Yes, that's, that, that is quite true. The, another analogy that I find is quite useful for the ego is erm Captain Kirk on the bridge of the Enterprise, okay? When you watch Star Trek, as I'm sure you all do, none of you watch serious television I'm sure. Erm, er, Jim is, Jim is sitting on in er on the flight deck of the Enterprise and he is the guy who has to make all the decisions. This is the great thing about Star Trek. Poor old Jim always has to make the decision because he is in command, okay? The buck stops where Jim is sitting. And that's what the ego has to do. The ego, as says, is open to the outside world and furthermore to stimulations from inside, from inside the body, that reach it through subjective sensations like hunger when you need food, or fear when something threatens you, and cognitive er awareness like er okay you realize that before you have your lunch you're gonna have to go to the bank to get some money to pay for it. These, all these things, are directed, as says, to the ego, and the ego can be thought of as a decision making agency. That's the clearest, simplest function of the ego in this Freudian model of the mind. It's the managerial agency. Freud talks about the ego as an agency, a psychological agency, just as we would talk about say er a social agency. You might say like the law courts here, you know, you might say what're the law courts er as associated in what they, they do? The answer is that they dispense justice, or they're supposed to, although in Britain I'm afraid only sometimes. Erm, so you could say what does the psychological agency, the ego, do? What's his function? And Freud's answer to that is its fundamental function is decision making. You could regard it as that part of the personality which is contr in control of voluntary thought and movement. Now clearly not everything that goes on in the body or mind is voluntary. For example, we cannot voluntarily control our heartbeat or basic bodily functions like that. Those are under automatic control and they go on even when our ego is non-functional, as when we're asleep. But an awful lot of things we can control by volunt voluntary movement, our arms and legs and so on, and we can control our thoughts. We can consciously direct our attention to certain things and think about them. And all of these functions are carried on by the ego. This is the decision making, the command giving part of the mind. And this is why, as rightly said, Freud regarded the, all the other agencies and forces as being into the ego, so the ego was as it were the command centre of the, of the erm of the personality. Er, again if anybody's seen that very amusing film by erm Woody Allen, what's it called, er Everything You Always Wanted to Know About Sex but w Were Afraid To Ask. Has anybody seen that film? Do you remember the scene where erm er they're inside somebody's body, do you remember this, and he's about to make love and the, the er there's mission control, do you remember that? And then there's other scenes down in the body and they're getting all ready, and there's also some horror scenes of the stomach aren't there, where th he's having dinner with the lady first. The guys in the stomach are trying to deal with all this awful stuff that's coming up. But anyway, this is a very amusing film, but, but the idea of mission control is the concept of the ego, where it is portrayed in a very amusing way in this film by Woody Allen, that the consciousness, Woody Allen's consciousness, is portrayed as mission control at Houston erm and er erm it, that particular scene ends with er when er control erm mission control sends a message down to the lower parts of the body, I won't mention which, says we're going around again boys, and they think oh my God they're very amusing. Anyway, so that's, that's the ego. That's the idea of the ego. Now, we shouldn we shouldn't get carried away, however, by this er focus on its managerial agencies, agency, and think that everything it does in this respect is conscious, because a lot of the processes that occur in the ego are actually not conscious. So this is a major complication and I think this shows why Freud had to introduce this second model of the mind, because in his first model of the mind it was very simple and repression was the force that distinguished conscious from unconscious. But what that model didn't really explain was why repression operated and what controlled repression. Now in the second model of the mind, what controls repression? What sets repression in force? What directs repression? Which agency? Erm, yes, that's correct. Er, but, but and there are two buts here. The but is the superego is a part of the ego so we have to er before we go on to the superego, let's just say for the time being that repression is directed by the ego itself. Now, the complication comes when we notice that there are parts of the ego that are not conscious. And of course the process of repression is not conscious. You're not aware of the fact that you're repressing things. If you are, that is not what the technical term repression means in psychoanalysis. That is what we might call suppression. I mean you may be on a diet and see a wonderful cream cake and consciously resist temptation to eat it. Well, that is suppression. You are consciously suppressing, your ego is consciously making a decision not to do something even though you know you want to do it. That's suppression. Repression would be looking at the cream cake and saying, I'm not in the least bit interested, how revolting, disgusting, even though you actually unconsciously want it very much. And of course that kind of thing can happen. Okay Yes. Yes, but taking place in the unconscious mind. Th that's the thing you must remember. Now er reminded me of the next thing really I ought to have got on to. In the term, the only term we needed to explain the whole structure of conscious, unconscious, pre-conscious, was repression and we saw that repression was really a key concept. Now, however, Freud expands that concept as well and interestingly enough he goes back to the first term he used for repression. What was, does anybody know what the first term was? What did Freud call it first time round, in the, this would be in the late eighteen eighties? Yes,wh in his first papers in hysteria, he didn't call repression repression, he used another term. Can anybody recall? I did mention it at lectures but . Well, he called it defence. One of his first papers was called the neuro psychoses of defence, and defence meant fending something away from consciousness, what he later called repression. In the nineteen twenties Freud returned to this concept of defence as, as has just said, with the concept of defence mechanism. And Anna Freud was to write the famous book called The Ego and the Mechanisms of Defence. Now, what are the mechanisms of defence and what have they got to do with the ego? First question first, what are the mechanisms of defence? Well you used the term , would you like to Could you give an example? Yes, that's right, that's a good example. The, the mechanisms of defence are a concept which overlaps, and to some extent replaces, repression. It doesn't re re replace repression completely because of course repression is the prime and in many ways fundamental mechanism of defence. Because what defence mechanisms do is is as says, is fend the unconscious off from the conscious. And that is, as we know, repression. But, what Freud had realized by the nineteen twenties was that there are lots of different ways of doing that, and has given one example. Another example wh which one can't help feeling one often meets in people in universities is rationalization. The construction of elaborate intellectual er defences which stop people having to think about things which might cause them anxiety, by elaborate rationalization. So erm if you ask them why they don't do a certain thing you get a very very elaborate argument about it, which is often very difficult to er to er criticize or, or, or attack. Another one would be reaction formation, turning something into its opposite. As I mentioned earlier, you want to eat a cream cake, you think yuk cream cakes're disgusting so there you turn the desire for something lovely into the opposite er yuk hateful. Er, reaction formation, that's a very common one. And there are lots of them, in fact Anna Freud in her book, The Ego and the Mechanism, gives a list, and I can't remember how many terms there are on the list seventeen and since then people have discovered more and in a sense the list is more or less limitless. The point to remember, however, is that these mechanisms occur unconsciously, they're things the ego does to defend itself from anxiety and from and the result of which is to force things into the unconscious. So, repression, it's not that Freud dropped the concept of repression but that he elaborated it and made it much more sophisticated, and the mechanisms of defence are the means, you could say they're the means by which er repression erm comes about. Erm, another example for instance that sticks in my mind because Anna Freud explained this to me, is isolation. Er, she explained to me a case she had analyzed where she, Anna Freud, was quite certain that some of the symptoms of the woman she was analyzing went back to infantile masturbation. The woman denied that this had ever happened quite vehemently. And Anna Freud had great difficulty in suggesting to her that it might have happened. And then one day the, the lady in the course of her associations, described an activity she had often indulged in in childhood. And she had given a certain name to it, and I can't remember what the name was now, something like fiddling, I mean fiddling is too obvious, it wasn't that, but it was something like that, an ordinary everyday term like that. And she said that's what I call you see. And Anna Freud said, okay that's what you called it, but supposing we had to look what you've just described up in a dictionary, what word would be found? And the woman thought for a minute and suddenly she realized and she said er you know gosh, that's masturbation isn't it, and Anna Freud said yes it is. Now this woman had always been aware of the as a child, she had always known it, it hadn't be unconscious in the sense she'd forgotten it, but it had been isolated, it has been given a new name, and ca unfortunately I can't remember what it was, but it was, it was completely er innocuous, the name was the term she used was totally innocuous. And because it had that name she didn't link it up to other terms like masturbation or whatever. So it was kept isolated in her consciousness and other, other ideas weren't allowed to touch it, and very often this is how repression works. In actual practice you could find an analysis that very often the things that have been repressed have not been repressed in the sense that they've been totally submerged from your consciousness and totally forgotten without any trace, but what often happens is they've become isolated or, or divorced from their context in your memory. So you remember them but they don't have any significance because you don't link it up with an emotion, or with a situation, or with other er ideas, they're kind of isolated. So isolation is quite a common defence mechanism, particularly in obsessionals, who're very good at isolation. And er this is probably one of the reasons why, as says, they like ritualization and they're very very tidy about . Obsessionals are very good at dividing up their minds as it were, but they're not necessarily divided up in the sense of conscious and unconscious. Very often they're, they're kind of divided up in this isolated way. So erm the mechanisms of defence are the means that the ego uses to stop itself being worried by any, anything that might seem to, that might seem to throw them. And another advantage of these mechanisms of defence is they apply to other inputs to the ego, not just those from the er from the unconscious or from the organism itself but from the outside, for example the denial is a defence mechanism that can be used against reality and is used by psychotics to great and often disastrous effect. They simply deny things in the real world they don't want to recognize. Okay, so that's, is everybody getting a feel now for, for mechanisms of defence?? Yeah, in all, in all system you know we have er the pre-conscious and the unconscious Yeah so, and we were repressing, repression was pushing into the unconscious, so does the unconscious still exist as a place where we repress everything? Yes it does. I think what we have to say is that the term unconscious is, is still used by Freud of course, and is still very useful, and it, it describes er if you like erm a relationship between levels of consciousness. The superego model doesn't do that, as we've seen, because a lot of the ego is unconscious as well as all of the conscious being ego. What it does is talk about psychological agencies, so what we've got here is two overlapping er models of the mind if you like, but they're somewhat different models. One is in terms of er levels of consciousness, the other is in terms of agencies that do things. They overlap but they're to some extent slightly different criteria. Does that Yeah, so the new one doesn't replace the old one? It doesn't replace one, it overlaps it, it overlaps it. And this is confusing, I mean I must admit it is confusing and even, even s writers in the psychoanalytic literature get confused by this, because sometimes they, they er don't see that to some extent the two systems are overlapping and to some extent they're about di slightly different things. Okay, we we've talked about the ego. Er, what about the id? What's the id? I didn't understand that. Yeah, it does mean something. What di what does the word id mean? It's not an English term, it's a Latin term. What does it mean in Latin? It. Yes. And in German, the German for, for it used was das es. E S is the German pronoun for it, third person singular pronoun. It. And in German, Freud just says das es. The it, as it were. Freud's English translators er attempted to Latinize for him, make it more kind of medical, they introduced some ridiculous terms like which is pure gobbledegook and is not found in Freud f er the terms of Freud's which correspond to those are not er observed Latinisms like that. Unfortunately they did it to, to er these terms as well, so they turned das es, the it, into id, which is Latin for it. But we're lumbered with it now, and I don't think we can change it. I mean it's a pity. It's a pity it wasn't just translated the it. It would've been better but erm I think that these terms have now become so widely known there's, there's no way of changing it back. Although erm I don't think I like , I never use that term and I hope it passes over . It's just ridiculous. Erm, okay, so, so that's what, what the term now, what does it mean, erm, could you hazard a description or definition of the id, or das es? I D, yeah, in a way that's true yes. But there's a bit more to it than that. It certainly is everything that has been fended off by the ego, so to that extent it, it corresponds more closely to erm to the unconscious. In the first model of the mind, remember we said that the unconscious was everything that was either primarily unconscious, could never become conscious, or had been forced into the unconscious by th by means of repression. Well, the id is, does represent the total unconscious that has been repressed. Not the unconscious part of the ego of course which is doing the repression, this is regarded as a separate agency. But nevertheless everything that has been repressed into the unconscious is in the id. So to that extent, you're right. What else would we expect to find in this id? Yes, the instinctual that's right, this is a very good portrayal of it is giving us. The instinctive , the, the er everything that has been excluded from consciousness. Consciousness and, and the ego operate on the basis of what Freud called the secondary process. Now, the secondary process was that basically logical realistical thinking. It's the kind of thinking you want to completely dominate your activities when you're writing exam answers, okay? Clear, lucid, logical, erm, remembering facts, open to reality, lucid. That's the secondary principle in the unconscious and the id the primary principle . So the primary principle is actually the opposite of that, it's irrational, it's illogical, it can think er six impossible things before breakfast and not have the slightest difficulty with it. It's a kind of Alice in Wonderland world of er of, of extremes, of opposites, and the primary process can tolerate these contradictions er with complete ease. It doesn't er it's not bothered by contradiction. It's not in the same tradition as, as, as the ego. Er, an analogy that I think helps to make this clear is that the ego after all is a managerial agency. Now, if you're charged with managing anything, you have to make decisions and when you have to make a decision, you can't have your cake and eat it. You've either got to eat the cake, in which case you no longer have the cake, or you decide to preserve the cake, in which case you can't eat it. You can't do both at once. In a real world where you face managerial decisions and you have to make a decision, you can do one thing or a number of other things, but you can't do them all at once, it's just not possible. If you try to, the result is a disaster. Now, the id is not like that. The id is not a managerial agency, it does not have to make decisions, it is not in contact with the real world and therefore it can have its cake and eat it. It really doesn't bother the id. So the id is a jumble of contradictions and the reason it's a jumble of contradictions is that it's not in contact with reality. It's a bit like political parties who have no hope of ever being elected making wild promises. I mean, of course they can, they can make all sorts of wild promises and all kinds of crazy policies because they know they'll never be called upon to carry them out. If, however, you get elected and you then have to carry out your policies, then of course you face the real world and the you can't have your cake and eat it problem. Let us see how Bill, Bill Clinton fares in this True er, my guess is not all of his promises will, will turn out to be realizable. And that's, that's, that's what the ego is like. The ego, to use another analogy er I use, is like the President of the United States. The ego is the executive agency, the id could be regarded as something like the Congress, as o which er seen as a, as a large mass of conflicting demands. You know, there're people in Congress want all kinds of different things and they can't all have them at once, but that doesn't stop them all wanting them. Is, isn't the id ever conscious? No. For example, there's a piece of cake in front of us and, and you know you just want it so badly and you just eat it, or even having sex, anything, I mean any desire that you have that you just follow. Yes. without thought, without, I mean, perhaps without even thinking of the consequences. Yes. Isn't that partially id? Well no, you see what's happening there is, is a, a demand or a drive from the id is being gratified by the ego. What, Freud would regard that as a situation in which the ego had surrendered to the id and said okay eat the cake. And of course the ego has to do that, I mean if you're gonna stay alive, the ego has to take account of these internal demands. The difference between the ego and id however is that if that is gonna happen in the real world, there has to be a cake there for you to eat. If the id is completely in control, and in psychotics for example, you often get the feeling the id is in control, they will eat the cake even if it's not there. So they'll have an hallucination of eating the cake and say yummy isn't this cake lovely, and you and I can see there's no cake there. Now that person is under the control of, of, of the id. There the ego has become so fragmented and is so er erm sick as it were that the id has overwhelmed it and the reality sense is lost. There perhaps you would say the id is beginning to dominate the ego, but in accepting these extreme cases of, of psychotics who are severely divorced from reality, the, what always happens is the id has to make a demand on the ego which then gratifies it. The reward however, well what's the reward? What reward does the id give the ego when it's gratified? Pleasure. That's right, the, the, the id rewards the ego as it were with a feeling of pleasure when it's when it's met its demand. When it doesn't meet its demands, the ego is likely to feel anxiety or discomfort or whatever it may be. It certainly Yeah. They can be gratified too, of course. Yes, because oh yes, because you see the ego is in charge of the voluntary muscles and these are the ones you've gotta use in aggressive behaviour. So, er er aggression again can be seen as a demand placed on the ego by the id, or for erm release as it were, when an ego erm goes and does something that, that releases the aggression. And if you can't do it, er you know very often it, it, it shows itself in other ways, like people stamp their feet or they begin to shake with rage. When you can't do something you know, you might actually kind of, your whole body kind of starts to, and that would be the ego as it were trying to express this, this er drive from the id. Of course, sometimes when that happens I mean the ego kind of gets carried away with it to some extent, but that's all, you know that's in the nature of the ego. It is I'm afraid a rather, compared with the id, it's a rather weak agency. You know, very often Jim does things on the Enterprise he doesn't want, want to do you know, but he just has to do them unfortunately. Well, when it, when it is irrational it is operating either under the influence of the id or it's overwhelmed by some external circumstances that it just can't understand the controls, therefore making all the wrong decisions and acting in a completely inadequate manner. Okay. What about the third agency then? The one we mentioned earlier, er the superego. Again this is a Latinism er what's it, what was Freud's original term in German, does anybody know? The ego was das auge, the eye, the id was das es, the it, what's the superego? That is in German. Got any German speakers here? Just one? Well, it was uber auge, rendered into English, superego. Okay. What is the superego? Again this is a term that's passed into everyday speech. It's the conscience. It certainly is. That is the, that's the aspect of it that's passed into everyday usage. It's er and it is in many ways the kernel of the of the concept. also said a sensor. The er, to revert to my American constitutional analogy, which is quite a good one actually, if, if the Congress represents the id and the President represents the ego, then the superego is represented by the Supreme Court. Because the Supreme Court, I think I'm right in saying, with my knowledge of the American constitution, erm it has er supremacy in matters that affect the law and constitution, doesn't it? I mean it can, it can, it can constrain the President, can't it? I mean, there are, are certain things he can and cannot do aren't there? Laid down by the Supreme Court. And of course, it represents the morals, ethics and law of the nation and similarly in the, in the mind superego represents the moral values, the aesthetic values as well , and the sense of right and wrong in the, in the individual. What else does the superego do, because it certainly does all of that, but it has other functions. We mentioned one of them earlier. It punishes er how does it punish the ego? Yes, that's right, yes. Guilt is the prime means that the superego has to punish the ego and er as says, guilt, you can be made to feel guilty by external agencies, by other people, but we also know you can also be made to feel guilty by yourself. And this part of your mind that makes you feel guilty Freud regarded as an internalized representation of other people to some extent, and indeed he thought that it, the superego was constituted by internalization and identification with the parents at the culmination of the Oedipus complex. However, it's important to point out here, of course, sociologists and a number of have seized on this as Freud's theory of socialization, but it's important to point out that s s psychoanalytic findings, does anybody know, what do psychoanalytic findings show about the severity of the superego and the type of childhood a person's had? Does anybody know? I think there's now a consensus about this. Could you guess , could you guess? But what would you call a bad childhood there though? And you, you'd expect that to produce a severe superego? Well it might, yes, yes it might. However, I think what most analysts would tell you was, er but then again it might not. Certainly Freud thought, and I think most analysts also think, that there is no correlation necessarily between the severity of a person's superego and that of their parents. Strictly speaking, Freud's view was that any individual superego is the internalization not of their parents as such, but of their parents' superego. And er I well remember on one occasion in the course of my analysis with Anna Freud I had the uncanny feeling, well this was more than an uncanny feeling, I think it was the reality, I touched the superego of Sigmund Freud because at one point I said something in my analysis which implied that her father, for instance, might have some interest in religion and Anna Freud flared up and what I felt was flaring was her superego and this was the superego she had got by identification with her father. I had the uncanny feeling that the ghost of Sigmund Freud was chiding me for thinking this and she was clearly incensed that I could suggest that her father could have had any interest in religion whatsoever. She totally childish and not something that somebody in the twentieth century should waste their waste, their time with, and for a brief moment I felt the moral force of Sigmund Freud as through his daughter and of course psychologically this makes sense because I'm quite sure her superego was modelled on her father's. However, however, in general analysts don't report that for example children of very strict parents have very strict superegos themselves. Sometimes they do but sometimes they don't. Sometimes they go to the opposite extreme and seem to have a very lax superego because they relied on their parents to punish them, and subsequently have no internalization. Sometimes, as said children can have virtually no proper socialization at all, have very lax or indulgent parents and have tremendously punitive superegos themselves. So, I think most analysts now think that the, the concatenation of circumstances which produces a person's superego is so complex, and there are so many factors interacting, probably along with any genetic factors, there probably is a heritable basis of guilt to some extent, but the, you can't say in a very simple way that a person's childhood socialization will determine every aspect of the superego. That doesn't seem to happen. So the result is you get children from very punitive authoritarian homes with very lax superegos and vice versa. There doesn't seem to be a generalization about this. Oh yes, absolute shame would be ano we should have mentioned it. I'm glad you reminded us. Shame is another very important way that the superego punishes. Yes. And again you would expect socialization and environmental factors to operate, and clearly they do in a trivial sense. I mean we all live in a society where people wear clothes and we'd probably feel a bit ashamed if we didn't have to wear any, but if you grew up in a society where nobody wears clothes, you wouldn't, wouldn't bother about it for one moment. But those kinds of relatively trivial aspects of socialization cl clearly affect it, but again shame can be a much deeper emotion in people and some people you know get, irrationally get very shameful about certain things that other people don't, and you wonder why. And again, it's a complex issue. It's not easy to predict why shame should operate one way or, or another and although it has something to do with the superego, you can't just say well the superego is er purely the result of erm of, of socialization, if you have strict parents you have a strict superego, it's not that simple. So erm, that's an important point to bear in mind. The parents do contribute an awful lot to the superego but they don't seem to contribute everything, and the superego remember, is formed by the ego through an active process of identification internalization and there the ego itself is, is a factor and I think mentioned this. I'm pretty sure she did and that was an important and excellent point to make. Another thing that the superego does that we, we should mention because it's often forgotten, is to provide the ego with a sense of reality. Now, of course to some extent the ego gets its sense of reality from the senses, from its direct observation of the world, but not entirely, and the reason for this, Freud thought, was that as children we learned that reality through direct experience is very important, but also through teaching and education from our parents and as a result parental authority represents the demands of reality. You know very often a parent, if a parent senses a child it's partly in the interests of reality you know, like I say to my younger son you know, look if I buy you a third Big Mac, let's face it, you won't be able to eat it. Okay, I'm speaking on behalf of reality. Occasionally I might buy him the big third Mac, the third Big Mac, just to prove to him he can't eat it, and this establishes in the superego a, that the, the superego to some extent speaks for reality and, and the reality sense is part of the, is part of the standards which are built into, which are built into the superego, and to, and therefore to a large extent the superego opposes the pleasure principle that operates in the id. And this is why as I can't remember if we mentioned it now, maybe did, maybe or someone else did, that the ego carries out repression very often at the demand of the superego, so the superego has its standards, its barriers, its sense of conscience, its threat of guilt, and the ego, to satisfy those demands, to avoid guilt, carries out repression at its, at its command, or at its insistence. I think the best way to think of the superego is a kind of sub-division of the, of the, of the ego. The way, to go back to my Star Trek analogy, erm, who in Star Trek corresponds to the superego, would you think? Well, you could say that. I would say Spock. Er, er I would say Spock because Spock er is the second in command and he tends to be critical of Jim, I mean he gives Jim good advice. Erm Well, that's true, he pr I think Scotty speaks for the id to that extent, for the internal demand, you know how much fuel there is left, that's right. He's concerned with, with, with keeping the ship going, erm, the remit of Spock is much wider isn't it? I mean Spock is more concerned with the external situation, and what're they gonna do, and you know he says Captain that's not rational, or this is life but not as we know it, er that kind of thing. Er er, but er well it's not a perfect analogy but you see the point I'm making. One should regard the superego as a kind of critic built into the ego. It's, it's, it's a bit like erm you know the Catholic idea of the guardian angel sitting on your shoulder only it can punish as well as give good advice and threaten you with guilt. How does the superego reward? We saw that the id rewards with pleasure. How does the superego reward?? It punishes with guilt and shame, how does it reward? That's right, feelings of moral er a moral self- righteousness, self-congratulation, pride, self-respect. These are all er ways in which the superego rewards you. So you know when you do something er for the right reasons, you know, you, you feel good about it. You want to pat yourself on your, on your back and think you know what a good boy I am, or what a good girl I am, and of course you're doing, your superego is doing to you what your parents would've done as, as, when you were a child, they're rewarding you saying good boy, good girl, haven't you been good? Now you can Right. Right now again you remind us of an important thing we should've mentioned. Where does the energy that the superego uses, the, the, in the shame and the guilt come from? Where does it get these weapons? Where does the superego get them from? Cos this is important. touches on it now. Can you guess? From the id, absolutely. This was Freud's finding. In a sense, guilt is aggression directed against your own ego if you think about it, isn't it? It's, it's beautifully shown in the Catholic Mass when erm they say well it's, through my fault, through my fault, through my most grievous fault and where you strike your own breast. Striking your own breast is directing aggression against yourself. Freud's finding was that guilt is, starts off as an aggressive drive in the id that could go anywhere, preferably towards other people, but the superego uses some of this aggression and destructive energy arising in the id and then turns it back against the ego, and uses it to punish the ego, so the aggression, instead of going into someone else or into the outside world, is turned back against the self and to that extent is self-destructive. And as says, in some cases this becomes a very powerful force in the personality, some people mobilize so much guilt and hatred against themselves of course it does become self-destructive. And this can happen. Yes, yes, I think in, I think in general one can certainly say that the more, and this touches on what said about personality types if a personality has a strongly developed superego themselves, they're likely to be very independent, sometimes to the point of arrogance. You know, you've met the kind of person who's so sure they're right they won't listen to anything, you know, they're, they're self-righteous and arrogant and that's because their superego is very very strong. A person with a weak superego tends to be much more influenced by other people and especially external authority. And sometimes they need external authority to control them and give them standards and tell them what to do. If they don't have that external authority they tend to flounder. Or even sometimes to actually look for it. They actually look for strong leaders, or they want rules because they feel insecure without them. Is that the kind of thing you meant? Oh yes. Yes. What if all, if ego and superego? Yes, the ideal state of normality for Freud would be a, would be a perfect balance between the three institutions. If they were all reached in accommodation together and kind of lived together with relatively little conflict. Oh no, it wouldn't, I wouldn't think of it as an alternative to interaction with other people. I would think of it as er Yes, I would think that if a person had a normal personality, if the interaction between the in institution and the personality was normal, you'd expect their interaction with other people to be normal. For example, people with very strong superegos would punish themselves and are very often very ready to punish other people too. You've only got to look at the history of religion, especially Christianity, to see that at as the guys who went round flagellating themselves also went around killing other people if they didn't believe in the right religion and that unfortunately er happens all too often. The reason of course. If I'm punishing myself for my religious beliefs, I've damn well got a right to punish you too. If you don't punish yourself, I'm gonna punish you. And that happens and self-righteous people get like that. Folks, we've come to five past eleven. We must stop. I'm much indebted to you. That was an excellent presentation. Next week we start the second part of the course, our erm, our key as it were and we'll look at the first one with er . Thanks very much. Apologies for those who had to sit on plastic seats. Okay now erm, there's a slight change of plan because er following one or two of the classes last week I realized that erm I hadn't made myself very well understood last week and er what came back from one or two people was rather garbled, and really it's my own fault because I probably tried to do too much too quickly and as a result perhaps er didn't make myself clear. So, what I want to do is to er really repeat what I said last week but with a different emphasis. And what this means is that from now on the cla lectures will trail the classes, which, which doesn't matter and is actually quite er a good thing in the sense that what will happen from now on is that we'll first do a topic in the class and then I will give the lecture on it the week after, or possibly even two weeks after, which is okay because it means that then in the lecture I can concentrate on filling in the gaps, straightening out the misunderstandings and generally adding to what we did in the class, rather than leading as it were as I have up until now. So what I intend to do from this week is that very thing, try and fill in as it were and er make up for what wasn't covered in the classes because I must admit that this year I've been struck by the high st high standard of the class presentations. So far anyway they've been excellent I must say. So if I trail the classes in this way it's not gonna do any harm I don't think because the class presentations and the class discussions in general have been so excellent this year. So what I want to do is to go back over what I was talking about last week but with a different emphasis. Instead of, instead of giving the emphasis to er what Freud said and trying to rather hurriedly, and as it turned out, too hurriedly, er fill in as it were the, the background from the point of view of modern er modern understanding of the evolution of sex. What I want to do is concentrate on the modern sex theory and then er explain that and then relate it to Freud. So it's going over the same ground but from the different er different emphasis because clearly my mistake last week was to try and cram in too much and to erm assume that what I was saying about modern sex theory was erm self-evident. Well it's self-evident to me but it's obviously not to, not to other people. Now in order to understand this and not to misunderstand terms, we've got to unders the first thing we have to understand is what Darwin's Theory of Evolution by Natural Selection is all about and the problem with this, and in some ways this is analogous to the problem with Freud, and I'll be talking about this later, is that er when Darwin put forward his Theory of Evolution by Natural Selection in eighteen fifty nine it was confused and misunderstood because of the ideas of other people like Herbert Spencer and the so-called Social Darwinists, who coined slogans like, for example, survival of the fittest. And survival of the fittest has since become a slogan, it is nothing more, a slogan associated with Darwin. Not, it shouldn't be associated with Darwin. In the first place, Darwin didn't coin it and used it very reluctantly. In fact it was coined seven years before Darwin published his theory, by Herbert Spencer. In fact, evolution does not select for er the fitness of individuals, if by fitness you understand what normally mean by fitness and that is health and wellbeing. If it did, however would you explain this? This is a graph, a rather murky one I'm afraid I don't know whether, is that muck on the screen, or is it on my thing, let's see. No, I think it's on the screen. Nothing we can do about that. Okay. Erm, this is a graph for annual mortality of males and females aged one to four for different years of the twentieth of the century. The only year where they coincide is nineteen twenty, the great erm influenza epidemic actually killed more people than the first world war, and er as you'll see, despite increasing trends in health care which have reduced the overall rate, the difference in death rate between males and females has remained in the same or, if anything, widened slightly in recent years. So in terms of infant mortality er males die more than females. It's not just true of infant mortality, it's true of all mortality as a matter of fact. This is excess male mortality in humans as a function of age and you can see that it peaks in the mid-twenties and the peak is mainly accounted for by violence and accidents and er things like that, risky behaviour on the part of males and er, as you'll see, throughout the life span there's a, there's a positive percentage excess in male mortality. And finally, sorry I had one more and I lost it, no I haven't, here it is. Ratio of injuries to deaths for all accidents as a function of age and sex. And again er male, the male rate is least up until age sixty five. And of course it's er it's a commonplace that human males die more readily than females. If you go to any old people's home and look around you, most of the people you'll be looking at will be females. Males on average die between five and seven years earlier than er females do and males die from all causes that affect both sexes, and some you wouldn't think did, er more than females. For instance in nineteen eighty eight more men died from breast cancer in the United States than died from AIDS. An astonishing statistic. You wouldn't think men could die of br die of breast cancer, but they do because men have residual nipples and they do produce small amounts of oestrogen. So, what does this mean? Well, in terms of survival of the fittest what it means is that natural selection doesn't select for fitness because if it does, what is it doing? Now nature may be feminine by gender but surely not feminist by conviction. Is nature persecuting males? Well no. What is actually happening is that natural selection does not select for fitness understood as health and er individual health er and wellbeing, athletic ability and so on. What natural selection actually selects for, we now know, is the reproductive success of individual genes and in fact this explains all these figures. The reason why males die more readily than females do is attributable to the effects of testosterone and the only cure for this is to be castrated, and the earlier you are castrated the lo if you're a male, the longer your life expectancy will become compared with, compared with females. What kills males in other words, preferential to females, is the very thing that promotes their reproductive success. So this is er this is an interes this is er a critical thing to remember if you're tempted to believe slogans like survival of the fittest. Natural selection does not select for any kind of qualitative improvement. Again, Herbert Spencer believed that evolution was an on and upward process of, of increasing perfection culminating in Victorian man, and Herbert Spencer probably did mean man as opposed to woman. Darwin never a never accepted that one. Darwin erm repeatedly said that evolution was not a perfecting mechanism. Darwin knew far too much natural history to know that was er true. Evolution does not always make creatures more complex, more intelligent, bigger, better adapted to their environment, or whatever. Sometimes it has the er the opposite effect. All natural selection does is reward reproductive success. Those organisms who have more offspring pass on more of their genes to the future and those genes are increasingly represented in the future if some kind of natural factor, like the environment or the climate or other organisms determine who has the greater reproductive success. Today er Darwinists don't use the term fitness. I tell my students during my evolution and behaviour course not to use the F word and the F word is fitness and I advise them strongly not to, and if I could ban it I would. Er, it's not in my nature to be authoritarian with my students but if I could be authoritarian I would say look, you're not allowed to use that word, and if you do you've gotta pay a pound. Er because it's the F word and fitness er is not what it's about. The trouble with fitness is that it leads to mistakes about evolution because it makes people think in terms of qualitative terms. Darwin's insight is into evolution as a purely quantitative measure. Reproductive success is purely quantitative. It is not quality. It is unscientific and wrong to draw any qualitative conclusions from it whatsoever. You cannot do that. All you can say is that natural selection selects for the reproductive success of individuals in their genes and some individuals have more reproductive success than others. You cannot say, as the Victorians said, that this is all bound up with certain races being superior or certain classes being superior. That perhaps was an understandable mistake in the nineteenth century when, for example, in this country the population was expanding very rapidly. But today the fittest populations in the technical sense of the term are the Third World. They have the greatest reproductive success and in terms of Darwinian evolution it is Third World rapidly expanding populations which are enjoying the highest levels of reproductive success. But nobody today would assume that necessarily went along with be better personal health or wellbeing because we know it doesn't. In the Victorian era it did but it doesn't today. So the point I am making is that terms like reproductive success are purely quantitative, they're wholly objective and scientific. They are not in any way to be interpreted as qualitative judgments. There is no room for qualitative judgment in science. I erm like most people in this institution believe in science and think I am a scientist and I have not time or room for such qualitative judgments. If it can't be quantitatively based, ultimately it's probably not worth doing in science. And so the point I'm making is that, is that a modern insight into Darwinian evolution is based on a wholly scientific basis and social Darwinism may have got Darwinism a bad name by associating it with slogans like survival of the fittest, but modern Darwinism er isn't like that. I've in fact printed out a short extract from my new book erm which illustrates this, albeit using a computer program, and you can take a copy of that away with you. It's very short, it's only about fifteen hundred words, and that I think explains it even more clearly. It would take too long to get the computer up and do it for you, but erm you can take that away with you if, if you like, that just makes the same points I've been making now, but using a computer simulator. Okay, so our modern view then is that evolution is all about the quantitative reproductive success of individuals and in fact of individual genes. So that is a quantitative objective scientific and ultimately measurable factor. Now admittedly in practice, measuring reproductive success is a damn sight more difficult than it seems. When you actually have to do it, you discover that there are all kinds of problems with it in practice, but in principle the, the situation I think is completely clear. Okay, now let's, having dealt with the concept of reproductive success, let's deal with the concept of sex. Now in modern evolutionary biology, sex again is based on a scientific quantitative definition, not on a subjective human or qualitative one. And the quantitative distinction which is well illustrated by this photograph, which is completely typical let me get the one, hang on right, this is a photograph of a hamster ovum with a hamster sperm just fertilizing it there and you can see that the hamster sperm is a lot smaller than the hamster ovum, and this is totally typical, it's smaller by many orders of magnitude. If you weighed them, you'd find that it was probably a thousand times, ten thousand times less in weight than the ovum and er also many times smaller in volume, and this is typical. In modern biology sex is defined purely in terms of the size of the sex cell and the convention is that the male has the small mobile sex cell and the female has the large relatively immobile sex cell and, with very few exceptions, this is found everywhere, throughout sexual animals, plants and fungi. Some algae admittedly produce sex cells of more or less equal size. When this happens they are not called male and female but they're arbitrarily labelled plus and minus. But plus and minus sex is very rare and er what is called erm dimorphism or anisogamy is the rule. Anisogamy just means sex cells of different size. It probably evolved because if you do computer simulations erm you find out that one of the stable equilibria to which er differing or same size sex cells leads is one with a very large cell and one with a very small cell. It's too complicated to explain er why this happens, but such simulations have been done, notably about Parker Baker and Smith who did the famous one and it does suggest that if you start off, even if you start of with similar size , that is sex cells, they will be driven by a competition for reproductive success to the extremes and you'll end up with two extreme types, a large type proto-ovum and a tiny type, a proto- sperm. So again, sex is defined purely quantitatively, there's nothing qualitative about this concept. It's purely quantitative and it's in terms of the size of the sex cell. Okay. Now, one of the consequences of this differing size of sex cells is that females usually concentrate on parental investment. Now parental investment is a technical concept which we don't need to go into in this course in too great detail, suffice is to say that parental investment represents everything a parent sinks into its offspring which promotes its offspring's reproductive success. Obviously food. Well, in the first place obviously the size of the sex cell Er, er its genes, the size of the sex cell, the food it gives its offspring, the protection it gives it, the transportation, education, instruction, protection, er you name it erm whatever the parent does, in the case of birds, warmth is a major factor, incubating the eggs. Anything that the parent contributes to the offspring which promotes that offspring's reproductive success is called parental investment. Now because of this initial asymmetry between the sexes and the size of the sex cells, the tendency is for females to concentrate on parental investment and males to concentrate on mating success. And the reason for this is that usually the male has a vast number of sex cells and consequently can afford to compete er for er female cells to fertilize. In grasses, for instance, it's not the ovule that is dispersed by the billions on the wind, it is the pollen. The pollen is tiny and minute, so minute that it can get up your nose and give you hay fever, but er you're never gonna catch hay fever from modules because they'll never be released, they're relatively massive compared with, compared with pollen. So what the pollen cells are doing are investing in mating success. That's why they broadcast themselves to the wind. This is the blunderbuss approach, the fertilization, fire off billions in every direction and a few are bound to hit females. What the ovules do is they stay in the grasses and they wait for the pollens to arrive. And this is, this is a typical, this is a typical pattern. So what tends to happen is that females invest in parental,i in their offspring, males put their effort into mating success. The proof of the pudding here is sex role reverse species. Now, there are more of those than you may think. There are quite a few species where the sex roles have become reversed and where males behave like females and females behave like males. One of the best examples, for exam erm, one of the best examples, for example, alright I'll say it, erm, is er, er what're they called now, er sea horse, sea horses. Sea horses are interesting because what happens is, males produce sperm of course, that's why we call them males of course , females produce eggs of course , that's why they're called females. But the females compete for males because the male has a pouch literally on the front of his, of his belly, you know what a sea horse looks like, he looks like a horse actually, not surprisingly, you know they have this kind of, they have a kind of tail and they have this kind of pouch. And what happens is that females, females have pouches that produce eggs but they only hold a small, they only hold a small volume. Males have much larger pouches and what happens is the females compete with each other. As a result they, they grow large, they grow aggressive, and they're highly coloured and they fight each other for access to males. Males erm are rather coy and, and retiring and er submit to er females planting their eggs inside their pouches. So females fight for males and plant their eggs in the male's pouch if he is, if he is er if he is accessible. Then the male fertilizes the eggs once they are inside his pouch and then he looks after them until they hatch and the poor male staggers around with an enormous great pouch full of wriggling er baby sea horses until they're finally born. And he, erm, in fact puts in a greater investment than she does because he has to do the transportation, protection and everything. He has to oxygenate them inside him and everything else. So this is a sex role reverse species where males in fact invest more in offspring than females do and er the females compete for males. The females compete for somewhere to put their eggs. Of course, in er mammals wha you could say what was happening in mammals is that males are competing for access to uteruses. They're doing the exact opposite of what female sea horses are doing. They're competing for access to male pouches, what mammalian males are doing is competing for access to female uteruses because it's only in a female uterus that an offspring can develop if you're a mammal. So the result is that in mammals there are, I think I'm right in saying, no sex reversed species whatsoever, in fact I'm sure there aren't. There are no sex reversed species and mammals have, if anything, exaggerated the fundamental differences er in sex, but I emphasise that this is based on quantitative factors, erm, there's nothing qualitative about this. One of the quantitative consequences of this which I mentioned last week and I, I think may have been misunderstood is what is called variance of reproductive success. If I can find a rubber, I'll write it up for you I'm afraid my ink, my pen, is running out. Er, variance of reproductive success. Now, this is illustrated by the following diagram which is based on a, on an actual population. This is based on a closely studied population of deer on the Scottish island of which is not inhabited by human beings, but is by deer, and the easiest way to see it is, is at the bottom here. This shows the lifetime reproductive success of er hinds as opposed to stags and what it shows is that hinds start their reproductive life earlier, soon after age two, and they continue it longer, right up to age seventeen. Erm, I don't think they live much longer than that. Whereas stags start their reproductive life somewhat later, around about age three, and their reproductive life ends earlier, around about age fourteen. The difference, however, is that stags are vastly more successful during their usually very brief period when they're controlling a harem of hinds. And of course, as this erm part of the diagram shows, some stags have no reproductive success whatsoever. In fact, in this population, about er half the offspring are accounted for by about five percent of er of the stags who have the best territories and the largest harems of, of hinds. So, although they start later, in fact ma mature sexually later, erm, than hinds do, just as human beings do, where of course males mature sexually a couple of years after females, their reproductive success can be vastly greater than any female. In this case, this stage had a mean number of er calves per year, about two, whereas this hind had a number just under one, which is about right. They normally only have on one per season. And since he would have had several hinds, at the peak of his reproductive career, his reproductive success would have been considerably greater. But, as I said, some hinds will have, er some er stags will have no hinds at all, they won't manage any matings, and as a result they'll have no reproduction success. So again, when I talk about variance of reproductive success, this is a purely quantitative objective numerical measure. It is a fact, it's not an opinion, it's a fact, that in the mammalian species, males can be vastly more reproductively su successful, or vastly less reproductively successful than females. It's not a value judgment, it's a fact. It's, it's reflected in mammalian societies like deer and er there are good reasons for thinking that it also applies to er human beings. Okay. So that's variance of reproductive er success and I mentioned I think last week, I anyway, the most extreme examples of this which is elephant seals where in once again a similar population to this, a closely studied population in California, five percent of the males were found to account for ninety five percent of the offspring in one season. Which suggests that ninety five percent of the males had virtually no reproductive success at all. So that shows variance of reproductive su success to an extreme degree. Okay, now, one of the things, I was gonna say this later but I'm gonna say this now because it fits in here quite nicely, although as you'll see I'll revert to this later, but while we're doing sex theory I'll mention it. One of the distinctive things about modern Darwinism is that it exploded the myth of group selection. Now group selection is, is the idea which grew up after Darwin and remained very common until the nineteen sixties and seventies, that natural selection could act on entire groups or species. In fact it can't. People realized it couldn't when, in nineteen sixty four, a biologist by the name of Wyn Edwards at the University of Edinburgh actually bothered to publish a book arguing the theory, and when Wyn Edwards argued the case, almost immediately most people began to realize that it, that it didn't make sense and that most of the evidence that he thought supported the theory doesn't in fact do so, and today Wyn Edwards has himself refused it, even he now er admits that group selection er cannot work. Erm, and the reason for this, of course, is that, as I said, natural selection selects for the reproductive success of individuals, it does not select for the reproductive success of the group. Supposing it did. Supposing that natural selection was rewarding behaviour which benefited the group. For that statement to be anything but trivial, there would have to be situations in which an individual was faced with a choice between an act which would promote its own reproductive success and that wou wou would injure its reproductive success, but promote that of the group, shall we say by foregoing eating something, by not fighting with another member of the group, by not mating with a female, whatever it may be. All kinds of circumstances could be such situations. Supposing the majority of th supposing everyone in the population did that. They all acted in a way that was in the interests of the group overall, shall we say by not eating too much foods. It would only take the appear the appearance of a mutant, who chose to put its own reproductive success first, for the whole system to break down. Because, by definition, the mutant who was acting selfishly would have greater reproductive success than the other members of the population who were foregoing these opportunities for selfish, selfish gain. By definition, the selfish mutant would have more offspring than the other members of the, of the population, and if they had more offspring, before long the mutants would begin to become an increasing, an increasing number in the population. There's no way in which you can stop er free-riders like that invading systems where individuals are striving for the benefit of the group. It simply won't work. One area where it er absolutely does not work is sex. I mean, if you think about it, supposing sex were for the benefit of the species. Well, imagine how different our life would be for us for a start. I mean, the first thing you'd notice is that erm sex would be something that was, you know, a public duty and an open . You know, everybody would, would applaud any sexual activity because it was you know, adding new members to the human race. Now we all know that life isn't like that. Again, in erm, in animal populations what studies of sexual behaviour actually shows is that individuals are not reproducing the species for the benefit of the species, they're reproducing themselves and their own genes as fast as they possibly can, given whatever other constraints may be operating. I mean you could say in this situation the stag was doing it for the benefit of the species but er you don't need to er you don't need to take that point of view. If you did, there's one fact that you couldn't possibly explain about this. If that were true, why is the species producing a large number of males who never mate? There is no way that you can explain sex ratios on a group selection basis. Take the sea lions. In sea lions only one in ten, sometimes one in twenty, males mate. That means that nine out of ten never mate. Why are they producing males and females in more or less equal numbers, which they are? Surely the benefit of the species would be served by prod producing ten females for every, every male. There should be a ten to one sex ratio. There shouldn't be a one to one sex ratio. But there is a one to one sex ratio. Why is that? Well in the ninet er Darwin didn't know, frankly. This was one of those problems that worried Darwin. He couldn't solve it. In the nineteen twenties the Darwinist, R A Fisher, solved the problem. Again it's too complicated for me to go into the details of this. I'm afraid sex ratio theory is complicated, but you'll have to take it from me that Fisher solved the problem by showing that it would never be an individual self-interest. The short explanation, if you want to know why elephant seals keep er an even sex ratio and not a one to ten sex ratio, even though only one male in every ten mates, is that every male that does mate has ten times more reproductive success than those that don't. In other words, as long as you don't know which of your males are gonna be the successful ones, it pays to produce an equal number of males and females. Because those that are successful will be ten times more successful than those that aren't. So if you have ten male offspring, nine of them will be wasted, they'll never have any reproductive success, but the one that does will have ten times the reproductive success of all the others and you end up evens. That's what Fisher realized. So, the idea that th our modern insight into evolution is, is that sex is an anti-social force of evolution. Now you might think that's a quote from Freud. It should be. Freud, as we'll see, said very similar things to that. In fact, it's not a quote from Freud. It's erm in fact a quote from Wilson, the founder of Socio-biology, the mo in other words modern er Darwinism as oppo as, as a applied to animal behaviour and Wilson's point in saying that sex is an anti-social force in evolution was to suggest that what is really happening is that if natural selection is a question of the reproductive success of individual genes, then individuals should be motivated to produce as many copies of those genes as they possibly can, and that will inevitably bring them into competition with other members of the species who wanna do exactly the same thing. One of the consequences of this emphasis on the individual was to revolutionize biological views of sexual deviation. Now, here again, in the past, group selectionist thinking had tended to the view that all you need for sex if it's for the benefit of the species is a regular male, a regular female, doing the regular thing and er everything will be alright. When you discover er irregular er males or irregular sexual activity, well that's some kind of pathology. That's er something that's unnatural as it were. But erm, just take a quick look at this. Not a very good photo I'm afraid. This is a species called the blue gill sunfish. In the, in this species there's a female and there's a regular male. The regular male is much larger than the female cos males compete for nesting sites. However, there are two other kinds of males. There are transvestites, or female mimics, who look just like females, are the same size and have the same coloration. They're, they look just like erm females, and there are little sneaks. Er, this one here, which is, which is very much smaller. And they all co-exist. Regular males invite regular females into their nest to spawn, and the regular male swims round with the regular female, as she disperses her eggs, he disperses his, his er sperm and er that's the way it should be for the benefit of the species. Okay? That's all we'd need if sex was for the benefit of the species. We wouldn't need little sneaks. What little sneaks do is they hang about near the nest. When this process starts, they zoom in, instantly ejaculate and zoom out. And believe me, I, when I mean zoom, the whole thing takes place in a tenth of a second. It was only discovered because somebody left a film camera running on an aquarium in which these fish were present and they noticed a blur and when the film was slowed down and analyzed it turned out that this was happening, that a little sneak was going in, instantly ejaculating, and zooming out. In fact the same thing happens with deer. We know male deer develop enormous antler at vast cost to themselves to dominate harems of females, but not all male deer do that. There are some male here who never develop antlers, they look just like females, and they hang about on the edge of harems, acting like females. When the male is preoccupied, when a stag is preoccupied, fighting another stag or mounting another female, they zoom in, quickly mount a female, ejaculate almost instantly and zoom off again. They're called hummels and they're sneak fertilizers. Such sneak fertilizers are surprisingly common and in the case of er sunfish, here is one. These little sneak fertilizers however are young and small of course, this is what they rely on their enormous of speed for, and they grow up into female mimics or transvestites, and what a transvestite does is when a regular male and a regular female are in the nest swimming around together doing the regular thing, the transvestite swims in, appearing as a second female. The male doesn't know that this fish is in fact male and not female, and in place of ovaries this male, which is that one there, has enormous testes. The testes of these female mimics are vastly larger than those of a normal male. This is a normal male and that's his testes, they're quite small. This is a female mimic and er she has enormous testes. And what the female mimic does is it swims in and instead of releasing eggs, which is what the resident male expects, they release vast clouds of sperm and of course fertilize some of the eggs. Now, from the group selectionistic point of view, this is a kind of sexual deviation. From the individualistic selfish gene point of view, it's just another way of gaining reproductive success. And you cannot make qualitative prejudicial judgments and say one is better than the other. You can't say, for example, that a regular male is a better male than the transvestite. There's certain respects in which the transvestite is more male, for example, he's got vastly bigger testes, so if you think that being male is a function of how large your testes are, then the female mimic is the best male. Well, clearly, such considerations are ridiculous and prejudicial and they're not scientific. All you can say is, there are different ways of getting reproductive success and er being a female mimic, or a little sneak, is er, is just one way of doing it. So the, the consequence of this is that if you concentrate on individuals rather than on er groups, you take a completely different view of sex. You take the kind of view that Freud took of sex, namely that sex is, to quote his term, polymorphously perverse, that sex isn't just a simple question of a regular male er doing it with a regular female. Now, another consequence of this way of er looking at it again, something to which I referred last week, is what is known as the Trivers Willard . Now what Trivers and Willard suggest was was this. They said look, if males can have greater reproductive success than females can, then parents who have some way of knowing that their offspring are gonna be particularly reproductively successful should invest in males, whereas if they have some way of knowing that their offspring are not gonna be particularly reproductively successful, they should invest in females. And the reason, to go back to the stags, where in fact we know this happens, er i is clear. In other words, if your offspring is going to be very reproductively successful then, because of variance of male reproductive success, you should have male offspring. Whereas if you think your offspring are not gonna be particularly successful, you should have female offspring because they always get, get mated in this kind of, in this kind of set up. In fact, this happens. It happens with deer, where female deer appear to be able to manipulate the sex ratio to their own advantage. We don't know how they do it, but high-ranking females in the best harems, that is those that have the best feeding grounds on run, produce significantly more males than they do females. And there are plenty of animal examples. Lot of them. I won't bore you with those. It also occurs in human beings. According to tax criteria, the top ten percent of the U S population produces an eight percent excess of males by comparison to the bottom ten percent. Actually, I think we do know how that comes about. What happens is this. Er, because w er males because of er variance of male reproductive success, another way of looking at it is to say look, males are expendable, you don't actually need a lot of males to keep all your females fertilized so you can waste them, and in fact we do waste them, for example in wars. It's usually er er males that go to wars rather than females, and you can waste them on a vast scale like we did at the time of the first world war and, and find virtually no effect on your population. Erm, the consequence of that is that at conception the sex ratio in the white U S population is about a hundred and twenty males to about a hundred females. What that means is that if you have a spontaneous abortion, you're much more likely to abort a male than you are to abort a female. Partly because there are more males to start with and partly because male foetuses don't survive as well as female ones, as any erm er erm erm maternity hospital will tell you that deals with very young you know, premature babies. They'll tell you that the males don't have the same chance as the females do. So, what probably happens is that women at the bottom of the social heap in the United States, having poor health care, high stressed lives, crime, drugs and all these kind of problems, probably have more spontaneous abortions, therefore the sex ratio away from males towards females, whereas women at the top of the social scale, low stress lives, good health care, better maternity erm medicine, stuff like that, retain more foetuses, therefore you'd expect them to have more males, and this is what seems to happen. If that's a natural as it were adapted effect of the Trivers Willard effect, there are plenty of cultural ones as well. The most astonishing is the case of Rajput castes in Northern India of the nineteenth century. These were high status castes and many of them were found to have sex ratios as low as a thousand to one, sorry, a hundred to one. In other words there were, for every hundred females, er for every hundred males, there was only one female. And they did this by practising er extensive female infanticide. And ratios of four to one were common as well as in China and other places erm, even in the middle ages in this country there is evidence that the sex ratio was quite seriously skewed er in favour of males and away from females. And this is usually the result of female infanticide. Recent data for example, from two hospitals in India, where amniocentesis was used to diagnose the sex of the foetus before birth, showed that ninety five point five percent of all female foetuses were aborted, but not a single male was aborted even though the amniocentesis showed that some of the males were genetically defective. In other words, Indian parents who could afford amniocentesis, the rich ones, wanted sons and they certainly didn't want daughters, because they aborted ninety five point five percent of the daughters but none of the sons, even when the sons were genetically defective. Historical data from a German parish spanning the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries shows that the wealthiest farmers preserved more males but the poorest labourers more females than the wealthiest farmers. Now, if child survival were simply a question of affluence as you might think it was, there's no way you could explain these figures. Because if that were true, both sons and daughters of wealthy farmers ought to survive better than sons and daughters of the poorest labourers. In fact, the daughters of the poorest labourers survived better than the daughters of the wealthiest erm farmers. The reasons seems to be differential parental investment. The wealthiest farmers were investing preferentially in sons and possibly the poorest labourers in daughters. This doesn't necessarily mean they were practising infanticide, although some of them may have been. The, the possibility is that they just looked after one sex better than the other and there is some anec anecdotic evidence that this kind of thing occurs, which I haven't got time go to into because I'm getting towards the end of the lecture. Anyway, you can see the point I'm driving at. The Trivers Willard effect is an inevitable consequence of the quantitative disparity in the sexes and the variance of male reproductive success. Now, my theory that I was proposing last week about preferential parental investment in sexy sons or little boys who showed phallic behaviour, is a consequence of the Trivers Willard principle, because basically what it says is that little boys who advertised, as it were, in their childhood, evidence of their own adult reproductive success by precocious sexuality towards the women of the family and aggression towards the males, might be rewarded by preferential parental investment, a Trivers Willard effect in other words, and if, when they grew up, those oedipal sexy sons were in fact more reproductively successful, then the result would be a kind of self-perpetuating cycle of parental investment in oedipal sons who then grew up to be more reproductively successful than non-oedipal sons and, and so on . In the end, as I said, with that kind of selection cycle going, you'd end up with the situation where all males had the, had that er had that trait of oedipal behaviour. However, the individualistic approach of modern Darwinism which looks at it from the point of view of the reproductive success of individual genes, isn't like the older group selectionistic thinking was, prejudiced in favour of any group. You see, the trouble with group selectionistic thinking is it's prejudiced in favour of big groups. It says individuals ought to conform to groups, because what is good for the group is good for the species and what is good for the family is good for the group is good for the species and everything like that. The modern individualistic approach says there are no privileged individuals in any population. You can't say that males, females, the old or the young a are those who, who carry on their sexual role in a regular way, or those who do it in an irregular way have a privileged point of view. That would be a qualitative prejudicial judgment, the kind of judgment that social Darwinists went in for. Th the modern scientific view of evolution says you must treat all individuals equally because all individuals are equally just the temporary packaging for their genes. It's their genes that are struggling for reproductive success. Consequently, you cannot say that one individual has privileges over another. The consequence of that is, you have to ask yourself, okay, oedipal behaviour is fine for sexy sons them, but what about daughters? Daughters are losing because their parents, perhaps especially their mothers, are investing preferentially in their sons, and we know that happens on a quite vast and astonishing scale in, in societies. What are they gonna do? My suggestion is that penis envy evolved as a counter-tactic, to motivate little girls by saying look, anything that has a penis is probably getting something that you're not getting, you should envy it and compete with it, and try to get those resources for yourself. Such a gene could pay for itself if it motivated little girls to in fact compete with their brothers for what their brothers might otherwise er get uncontested. There's nothing in our modern view of the evolution to say that one party has privileges over the, another. On the contrary, if the gene can pay for itself in terms of reproductive success, that is all that matters. So all I'm arguing is that all such a gene for penis envy would have to do would be to promote the reproductive success of the little girls who've had it to that gene eventually to become established throughout the entire female population, just as the gene for oedipal behaviour, or phallic behaviour, would become selective in males. These are not prejudicial judgments, they're not based on, on value judgments. They're based on simple qualitative calculus of what would happen if natural selection operated this way. Now, of course, it may well be that er all this is completely crazy and it doesn't work that way, and that my hypothesis about these things erm are, are quite wrong. They can be tested of course. Erm, I mean I could generate P H D theses for you by the dozen out of all this. I mean, we could, one of the big problems you know in science is people only start protesting things when they think they're credible, and often it's very difficult to get people, first of all to think it's credible, before they erm before you can get the tests. One test, for example, that I suggested to you last week which would have surprised Freud, is by contention the children who were overwhelmed with parental investment, particularly by perhaps the parent of the opposite sex, shouldn't show much oedipal behaviour. I've said that there is evidence from the studies of Robert Stoller that this is true. Now that's, that's a prediction that I think er you wouldn't make on the basis of the Freudian theory, but on the basis of my interpretation of it, it kind of follows. And there are lots of other ones erm you could, you could, you could make as well. So you see what I've been, what I've been trying to do in this lecture is to explain the, the modern biological basis which I think makes Freud's findings intelligent. Because on otherwise they're pretty unintelligible. I mean, let's face it, penis envy is a is a pretty wacky idea however you look at it, and you can't blame people for thinking, oh you know, this Viennese professor must have had a, had a diseased mind or something to come across such a crazy idea. It does seem crazy. On the surface it looks very crazy. If you read the Trivers Willard erm literature, as I have done, about preferential parental investment in males as opposed to females, it, it starts to make al a lot of sense. Indeed, Robert Trivers in the original path breaking paper of his that launched the whole theory of parent offspring conflict, without knowing it, predicted it. Because in that paper there is a passage where Trivers says, if my theory is right, and basically it's this Trivers Willard thing he was talking about, that parents and offspring will be in conflict about parental investment, he says, if my theory is right and if parents discriminate investment on the basis of offspring success, then he makes two predictions. He said first, selection will select for offspring to know what sex they are and secondly, selection will favour offspring who compete er with the, with the sex er wh in whom the parents are, are erm favouring. Now, he doesn't say anything about penis envy in, in putting that forward and I don't know whether penis envy was in his mind at the time he wrote those words and even if I asked him today, he probably wouldn't admit it. I happen to know, from a friend of mine, that Robert Trivers, long before he was the great evolutionary biologist he is today, when he was an illustrator of children's books, argued the whole thing to and fro with a friend of mine who was a Freudian analyist and he tells me that in the beginning all they talked about was Freud. It was only later that Trivers began to link it up with Darwin. So it may well be that indirectly, whether consciously or unconsciously Trivers' own thinking was influenced by Freudian findings erm, I don't know, I'm pursuing that possibility. It would be interesting to know, but however that may be, it's significant that within this very first paper Trivers makes this prediction and my interpretation of penis envy is effectively what, about what, Trivers predicted. Well, I hope that clarified a few iss issues and made one or two things clearer. They're probably even clearer if you take this copy of my er which I'll leave by the door and er we'll carry on next week. Don't forget, those of you in Tuesday class, next week it's at four P M and not two P M. Thank you very much. Right have we got any apologies for absence? Yes? Yeah they're on the l the list which is er circulating . Yes. I think there's five so far. Right. Er, I would like er to welcome you all to tonight. Er I would particularly like to welcome John Rothwell who many of you know. Erm I've known John for many years. I can remember delivering er leaflets in Boothstown. Er we were finding out how long it would take us to deliver leaflets in Boothstown. That'd take us a lot longer now,. Mm. Er but he he is the agent for the European elections, the Liberal Democrats agent, and he's gonna say a few words about that later on. Er thank you all for coming tonight. Er I think it's the er I think it's the third General Meeting er of the Worsley Constituency Liberal Democrats. Er I know that there's at least one other attraction tonight, especially if you've got Sky Television, or have a ticket for er Burnham Park, and I know at least one of our members found the attraction of the match too tempting. Lindon Greensit, who by the way would like to come onto the committee sends his apologies. Where? It's been a peculiar year, a sad year, we have lost some loyal members, Mr Williams, and John Norton Grimshaw. Sybil Mann, a Liberal member for many years. It was only two years ago however that er Bob discovered her, and George, and she's been an inval valuable member of the c committee ever since. We have missed her bad badly, especially in Astley , where she was to organize things, and I'm sure er the meeting sends George er our condolences. Mm. Yeah. Nationally however, nationally it has been a stimulating time. The party conference was bubbling with enthusiasm. There were good debates on racism, transport and crime pre prevention. In the latter debate there was not enough emphasis o on the inner cities. Home watch schemes are not much good when many of the neighbours are criminals and they terrorize the rest. In Worsley frank f f f frankly, er actually it's been disappointing. Firstly we've had no elections, which means that we've had little to focus on. Usually after elections we have an upsurge in memberships, so this year, thanks mainly to Tom Hilton, er it's been good that we've managed to maintain our membership. The membership unfortunately have seemed rather passive. A dinner was organized for the Euro campaign, we sold about ten tickets, we had to cancel. We had a room booked for the Christmas dinner and we didn't have the courage to go ahead with it, because we didn't feel we could sell the tickets. Both lost money. We or we are organizing a hoe-down on the twelfth of February,eight eight P M, tickets five pound fifty. There's been a poor response from members. However, we've managed to sell eighty three tickets through sa through various ways, and er now every ticket that's sold will make a profit, and we need the money. Perhaps I'm wrong to blame members, perhaps it's the fault of the committee or the Chairman. Perhaps we need to involve members in er other ways. I feel that we need now new blood on the committee, and coupled with the fact that I've done one one more year than the constitution says I should, I'm not standing for reelection as Chairman. We must now look to the future. The Tories are in disarray. They promised ta tax cuts, they promised to cut crime, they promised to look after the environment, they promised to improve e education, they promised to improve the the democratic process, they're now the party of careful housekeeping. They deliver nothing. They deliver the opposite. We should replace them as the Labour Party's main op opponents. We have we have elections to fight, we need money, we need candidates, we need workers, and ideas, we need help. For the local elections I would like to appeal to you to put your name forward as a candidate. We cannot afford to let the Labour Party go on unopposed, cos I feel that the Conservatives are struggling for candidates, in fact I know they are. Please, let's get going. Right Bob, the minutes of the last A G M. Very good. to you. Oh while I'm at it, might as well dish out the agendas as well since we've already started . I thought you were gonna say raffle tickets. Gonna say, I haven't got a , limitless Yes they all squashed onto one sheet you see. Thank you. here in nineteen sixty two. To fifty nine. You've got a copy from John . Oh sorry , yeah. I'll have a read. There we are then. I can't read that sort of Do you accept that these are a true record? Yes. Anybody to second that? Alright? What if I propose that that's a true record? Yeah? Right? Seconder? Right. All in favour? All right, thank you. Any matters arising? Nothing? There's just one thing if I might add to that. Erm we we were supposed to have had a a guest speaker at the last er A G M and that was the result of the the video being shown on its own. Might I just point out that that he did send his apologies, and er he also sent us a a donation of twenty pounds. Right, thank you. Mm. That's excellent . It was most welcome. Yeah. Have we given him a receipt or anything? Or acknowledgement, or anything Yes. We we . Excellent. Any other matters? Right. Reports.. Right. I like this phrase in paragraph eight of the Oh. of the minutes Mr Chairman. Oh, what's that? Talking about the closing of mines. Yeah. And it says The Tory government which must which must take responsibility for setting up a rapacious duopoly of generating companies . Beautifully worded. Well I c I ca I can die happy now,praised by by Arthur Smith . That that's something. Not many people have er enjoyed that. Can we have an action replay of that? Yes. Erm yes, er erm er another bit of paper to dish out to have a look at er for those that er are not too familiar with the motorway project which has has taken up erm quite a lot of my time . erm I did see I did see you on television. Er oh I've been on. Oh yeah. Not every week. Er yeah. Er Yes erm the these erm exemplify two of the effects of the motorway proposals. Er the the the top one er shows erm one or two of the houses which are due to be er demolished er if Corner of Glenn Avenue, are they? Row Green? Er yes. Yeah. That's right. Er so the the er proposed additional motorway would in fact virtually cover the whole of the er site shown in in that picture. Mm. Er the the l the lower picture is of the er traffic island er the present traffic island outside the Courthouse er together with in the middle distance the existing motorway and behind it erm St Mark's Church, and as part of the scheme er that existing motorway would be dug up and moved er to cover the existing island in the foreground roughly up to where that white car or van is. So there'd be two er and and then the new motorway would be built er at roughly er ground level as it were er where the existing motorway is, but it would be lower and there would be a a footbridge an ornamental landscaped!footbridge built over both motorways to get from the viewpoint to St Mark's Church. Er well er a l a lot of my time has been spent in another context er as Secretary of er Residents Against the Motorway which is er an all-party thing er but we've er we've also taken some action as er a political party as well in that er fairly early on sixth of July ninety two er we we wrote to er Nick Harvey who is er MP who is our Transport Spokesman er and we gave him some er initial details er of the scheme er to which he er replied erm reminding us of what we knew already which was the Lib Dems' transport pali policy in application to roads. Er at the last conference er both Kerry and myself buttonholed him er and proposed that we er push it a bit further and er the re upshot of that was that we wrote him a much more detailed letter er on whatever date it was, er first of November ninety three, and we've now had a er a reply er to that er giving us carte blanche to quote him er w with er a number of er quotations which we'd drafted and put into his mouth, so er a all the quotations that we've asked him to approve we can use. Now er Paddy Ashdown has also said that anything that Nick Harvey approves of er he will approve of so we can quote Paddy er the same er at er at some suitable point, for example in advance of the May elections. We've also submitted er on your behalf er motions to the er regional conference er and to the er Cardiff er federal conference, which I mistakenly referred to as a national conference. Er the upshot of that is er that the motion for Cardiff conference er has been ruled out er because it's not a national conference it's a federal one,so I've got caught out on on a technicality there, er but we have put in er an amendment to another motion submitted for Cardiff er not that one erm a motion submitted er by South West Herts er which concentrates on the M Twenty Five. So we've we've put in erm an amendment to that one to make it include reference to the M Sixty Two relief road. Er I've got the text of those here, I don't propose to go through it all now, but if anybody er you know wants to have a look at that they're they're welcome. The regional conference one, er since there is a regional transport paper coming up for debate er in in which I had er a hand as regional erm policy chairman, er the the the Worsley motion er will in fact be taken as a an amendment er to that regional paper which is coming up er at the Southport conference. So we've er we've done I think what we can er as a party about that motorway project and er there will doubtless be more to do. So that's the er the motorway thing. I found out er today I don't know whether anybody else has er heard of this that there is a proposal coming er up to er for for the Isle of Man company which owns most of the Ellesmere shopping centre site er to purchase the Market Hall and er convert it er or whatever er the suggestion is into a supermarket. Er the market traders er are up in arms about this and I found them er in the process of trying to get a petition together but it it wasn't put together right, they were just getting people to sign blank pieces of paper. So er when I found out about this I've equipped them with a er with a proper petition er and er I have a copy here if er you would like to c circulate it and er sign it. Erm Might I just add to that that er I have heard that they also want to take over the Pembroke Hall. Whether there's any truth in that Yeah the the way it was put to me was that the Pembroke Hall would be part of the deal er but that the Isle of Man company was not particularly enthusiastic about having the er the the the poison pill of the Pembroke Hall wrapped in with the deal cos it doesn't make money. Er so that's that's as it was told to me by er the th their their Chairman erm Win Winder. E Winder. Winder . Winder is it? Mhm. Yes. So er no details are are available er for what the er Isle of Man company proposes to do with the Market Hall or or with the Pembroke Hall for that matter. Er er it seems that the Council have known about this for six months er and it's only within the last week or two er that information has got out so it seems to me that that's something that er that we ought to take an interest in. Er next there is an item er for Kerry. Er we have now written to the Council about the excess traffic on Ringlow Park Road and Chapel Road caused er by erm the traffic calming measures which have been put on er to Hazelhurst Road. So all the traffic that used that as a rat run to get on the East Lancs Road is is now going er through Ringlow Park Road and some of it through Chapel Road, er and those roads are even less suitable for traffic than er for commuter traffic er than Hazelhurst Road. So that's er been attended to. I think that's I think that's all I want to report er Mr Chairman. Right. Er I don't know whether it's now is the appropriate time Kerry but Go on. could I ask if i if it is appropriate whether whether Bob could elaborate on on what the proposals are for the Market Hall and . Yes, I've I've Yeah. only had this sprung on me er today er when I went in to the Hall and and and saw them with a notice and a table collecting signatures. Er now it s it seems that the idea is for this Isle of Man company I think you kn you know the name of it don't you which I've forgotten. It has several guises. Anglo International is one of them. Anglo International yes. Er well it seems that that they've put in a bid to er purchase the th the market place er and as Peter said quite rightly apparently wrapped in wi with it er I don't know why but wrapped in with the the proposed deal is the er Pembroke Hall. Er but nobody could tell me for certain what it was that they intended to use it for, er but it was apparently not guaranteed that it would continue to be used er as a market hall. I actually heard that it was going to be used as a food hall. Purely a food hall. Right. Yes. Which would then expel the market traders and I think the i well the ploy was to try and get them into some of the er the vacant lots in within the Ellesmere centre. But when you look at the cost of those units Yes. in comparison with what they would be paying for a market stall then it would be it's way out of their their That's right. their their range. So I mean it it was it was represented to me er and I felt that there was some logic in it that that this company would not be discussing this deal unless it felt it could make money out of it and that money in the end would have to come out of the local people here. Yep. Right. Could I make could I make er erm Sorry. a question ? Mm. Yes Alec. George. It doesn't seem to have . It doesn't Yeah. it doesn't look as though the Yeah. That's right. initiative has come from Anglo International. Er if part of the package cont contains something that they don't want Mm. then I would suggest that perhaps Salford Council have approached them. Erm It's not impossible because er Well of of this secrecy that's apparently surrounded the whole thing. But if if if Pembroke Hall is part of the package and they would never have volunteered to take on Yeah. Pembroke Hall surely if er if it's something they don't want. I would have thought the mo Without knowing anything about it I would have thought the most likely explanation for that is that that the property company who own the precinct have suggested to the Council that they would like to buy the Market Hall and the Council have been sitting on it and pondering it and some bright spark has come up with the idea, Yes you can buy the Market Hall if you also buy Pembroke Hall . Could be. I would have thought that was a more likely erm But er we're obviously we're speculating and it's perhaps Mm. fruitless Yes I know. to do so. Would you wish me to write to the Council and ask them what's going on? If you think there's any chance of a re of a reply I would very certainly . Well if they refuse to reply or reply saying that it's confidential the then er that's all grist to the mill as well isn't it? I think it would be a good idea yeah. Yes. It looks like a nice er subject for the campaign for May. Yes exactly. Maybe an open letter in the pre in the press er would be suffice better. Well er depending on what we get from from the Council . Aye. as a next step perhaps. Yeah. I was thinking. Yeah. Well you've got to react you've gotta act fairly quickly on that though haven't you. Mm. Oh yes. You know if you send an open letter you you've gotta do it fairly Otherwise somebody else is going to write in and Yeah. Erm or I might ri ring And then you're just replying to what they've said aren't you. Or I might ri ring ring them up and ask them. Yeah ring them up and ask them and then write a letter Yeah. to the paper. Yeah. I thought. Yes. Excellent. Good. Right er er that Secretary anything er else on Secretary's report? No? Er Membership Secretary. Yes well Mr Chairman members. You will see that er at the last meeting the membership total was a hundred and four. That's rather more than a year ago of course. Er it was in October in ninety two. And it followed a general election which of course is always a Yeah. good recruiting period and we had er thirty o thirty one I think it was or thirty four new members who came in at the general election. Inevitably we haven't held er er they haven't been able to hold up that new members this year and er the main job has been trying to er keep quite a number of the members who were recruited er to the gen following er the general election. Several of them were fringe members who we have not been able to keep on to some of them especially in er in Little Hulton and Irlam Mm. where I think we've er lost track of about eight or nine people. So er we're still hovering around a hundred but instead of being four over the hundred the present total is ninety six by my reckoning. Er we'd dearly like to get it up to three figures again obviously because a amongst other things this affects the number of representatives that we get for conferences and so on. If you get over a hundred you get an extra extra one there. Hopefully we may be able to do that. Er ninety three was not a good year for recruiting from the point of view of elections as has already been said because we didn't have any elections and therefore er it wasn't possible to er to canvas and consequently er we were struggling to recruit new members. We did we did manage to recruit nine during the year but we lost er four by death as Kerry has mentioned, three by removal or one or two elderly people moving into er sheltered or into homes and things like that where they're no longer contactable, and there were ten lapses making a total of seventeen that we lost er as against nine new members recruited, which meant that we have a nett have a nett loss of eight from a hundred and four to the present total of ninety six. What has been er what has been pleasing is that a n a number of the people who've come in on the last two or three years or so er are younger people, people in their er late teens or twenties. Er it's been one of my hopes that we might be able to get er a small youth section or youth committee coming er from amongst these people. The latest the latest recruit is a young man of of twenty three from Astley . Once again we have this problem of keeping in touch with the wing wards,Astley and er East it's not all that easy to do but er there are people there who are showing an interest and I hope that we can . Obviously with the coming of two elections shortly we have the opportunity to do a lot more canvassing and contact more members of the public and to draw in new members from there. We also have in the area a tremendous number of new houses which have never been contacted by us or for by any political party and I would hope that we might be able to to do er something about the area behind the church there is er an area that comes to mind which could well be fruitful, and I would hope that we might during this year get er some kind of literature out to these places apart from election literature. So at the moment it's ninety six. If anybody can help me help me to get it up to three figures again personal contact could be er very useful in these cases if you come across anybody who you might think we could interest. You don't have to do it, just tell me and I'll I'll tell them. Right thank you Tom, thank you for your work again this year, especially following up the the er members who lapse. I know it's difficult. Thank you. Er next is Treasurer's report. Peter? Mr Chairman er loyal members. Erm whilst I've not been able to produce an audited er set of accounts I do have er a set of figures for you erm and as you said at the the beginning of your opening er speech Mr Chairman that erm we had one or two losses during the year, those er in actual fact didn't erm affect us in thi this particular financial year as they were aimed at the September December period, but therefore they will be reflected in next year's figures not or in the current year's figures or the next annual general meeting's figures. Er we started off the year with er a current account balance of two hundred and thirty three pounds ninety four and we ended with two er three hundred and twenty seven pounds twenty nine pence. The deposit account it makes me wonder why we've got money on on deposit in in a bank. Erm we've got we had two hundred and pounds fifteen pence on deposit which has raised us one pound ten pence interest over the year, leaving us at two hundred and twenty one pounds twenty five pence. Some of the expenditure er some of the income came from erm the Cheltenham Gold Cup which ra actually realized us the sum of ninety four pounds in comparison with twenty fo twenty four pounds the previous year. The President's dinner raised us erm fifty five pounds and a profit on the hoe-down of thirty five pounds. And thanks to Tom chasing up membership that actually brought us in a hundred and ninety nine pounds seventy er throughout the year. Expenditures, er some of the the er higher amounts are printing at ninety pounds fifty,cons conference fees at sixty pounds, er Euro Election er donation of twenty five pounds, photocopies of forty pounds, er bank charges Which er was a point that I took up with the bank erm Mr Chairman last December. Er they wanted to charge us eighty pence per transaction, and after a lot of argument we managed to pin them down er at er ten pounds for the at at the rate of two pounds fifty per quarter. Er had they got their way every time we put a cheque in or took one out or moved money from one account to another it would have cost us eighty pence, which meant that had anybody paid their their fees to the er and made the cheque payable to us directly, we would have had to bank that cheque and then reissue another cheque er to the appropriate department and that would have cost us one pound sixty, for which we'd have got nothing. Mm. And that one pound sixty would be eroded erm in the amount that comes back on our erm direct payments from Downing Street. Erm we have we had in in this particular set of accounts thirty five pounds on two occasions for rooms er which we had to let go and computer data er which is still being processed I understand at a cost of forty pounds. Those are the the figures as they stand as of thir at the thirty first of August nineteen ninety three. Right. How do we stand now? Pretty much the same at the moment because I'm I'm sat on a couple of bills for Salford Council who I'm sure can afford it for the moment. So But we w we we are solvent. Right. Any questions? Perhaps I could just add something to the the the item about the data processing. We er that that was that that er er election software wasn't it ? That's right. EARS. Yeah. Er we have now received a package from them. Incidentally I I think when you when you net it all out that that forty pounds er is partly offset because I think we got er twenty five pounds from the Spastics or something. That's right yes. Er so the actual cost is fifteen. I've had a package at long last er back from EARS er but I haven't actually erm put it onto the computer yet because it's erm it's proving a bit temperamental at the moment and I didn't want to risk overloading it with with yet another er software package u until I've had it seen to. Er I suspect that what they've sent us is the software but not the database for any wards and the the deal was that we would get er at least er the database for two wards er and a printout annotated with telephone numbers of the er electoral register. So we we may have to pursue that further but there has been some progress after all this time and expenditure of money and and time. Where's that from Bob? Sorry. It's a it's a thing called EARS er which is an acronym for Starts with Election anyway. And what it enables you to do is er to to either type in the electoral register or er read it in from the corporation's disks, er maybe after translation, which is what one of the jobs that EARS did for us, er and you can then tag it with erm er serv erm canvas er returns and telephone numbers and things like that. Well the reason why we were attracted to it was of course the very point that that they would translate the disks for nothing, we wouldn't have to type out the register, and they would also add the telephone numbers without us having to look them all up so that we could do telephone canvassing . Mm. Mm. Er so I suspect it's not worked out quite as we intended er and it I mean the main problem is that it's it's it's cost us time, cost me time which I would rather have spent on something else but there we are. Yeah the other the other factor is now that that data is getting on for twelve months old Oh yeah. and new registers will have been er made, composed, disposed of, Indeed. and recomposed. Yeah. Th th there is supposed to be an updating or editing mode for EARS . Yes. Er Can I ask you how you've provided them with the data to to actually produce the erm We we bought it from Salford and from Wigan. Er it was a deal done with the Spastics Society er on a at a national level in that er the individual local parties would buy this data er from the appropriate councils on on either disk or tape, er EARS would translate them and the the cost of the translation would be borne by the Spastics er Society, and the cost of the disks, would be borne by the Spastics Society, and I think it was about a hundred and thirty quid or something like that altogether. Er the Spastics Society would obtain the data for the purpose of trying to identify street agents for them er and er we would get the the database when completed. Now er we we already had a license for an earlier version of EARS which in er in fact was in Aled's name from the last general election but one. T or two. Erm er that that was for a B B C computer. So er the forty pounds was for the update of the license to erm er an I B M compatible. That was offset as I say by er this er I think it was I think it was twenty five pounds er sweetener from the Spastics Society. So the the whole operation has cost us fifteen pounds. Er whether we've got anything usable out of it still remains to be seen. Mm. Right. Might I just add that if anybody does actually pay their fee by cheques erm please make it to the right department er as as Tom will give you erm the co the correct er name for for your cheque. It saves us er handling and Yeah. erm So you they pay it to Who do they pay it to then Tom? Who do you pay a cheque to ? Er just pay it to Are are we talking about er s subs? Subs yeah. Memberships. Er well the Liberal Democrats or even S L D if you want. You don't have to write very much. Yeah. Liberal Democrats. The the point Peter er is making is don't make it out to us because if you if you give me a cheque to Worsley I've got to go to Peter's house and and then get him to give me a cheque and then I've got to go to either Kerry or Bob and get them to Mm. countersign it and er Lot of messing. The the other factor is that we used to get . We used to get exactly the same rebate, the only thing is we have to wait three months for it. We do get a regular cheque every three months erm of a rebate of thirty percent. The the other factor is that that the negotiations with the bank erm to pay two pound fifty per quarter erm should have been erm reviewed last December. They've kept quiet and so have I. Yes. So therefore until they stay char start charging me some more money on it I'm gonna keep quiet. Mm. Mm. Right. Any any other? Could I suggest erm Mr Chairman er our our Treasurer has been under er some pressure recently. Yeah. Erm could I suggest that er that the incoming committee be given authority to erm obtain erm audited accounts and to approve those accounts on on your behalf when available? Can I move that? Yeah. Any seconders? Yeah. All in favour? Right, passed. Right. Er D says Social here Bob, what does that mean? Are we does it mean we're having one? Er no. What it what means is er er a report from anybody that will admit to any responsibility for the social activities. Er Er well I think I've said quite a bit about it. Do you do you want to say anything Peter in particular? Er not not particularly apart from that er that the the s the support from from the Party in general wa was very poor from the members in general was relatively poor. Erm Yeah. and though these sort of things were the the best way I I saw it er of of raising funds for for the coming two elections the Euro Election and the next local elections. Yeah. And whilst we had no opportunities last year for canvassing or erm for getting members we we could have I I felt er put on more fund-raising events as we had a quiet year and we could have probably at the same time persuaded one or two people to to actually join us. It er I I mean I as far as I'm concerned it's er extremely difficult to get people to er come to social events. Mm. Yeah. Er if you advertise them too early er they forget about it. If you advertise them too late they've booked up something else. Er so I I don't know where we are. I've er this, the the er hoe-down, I've been advertising since before Christmas er and er although we didn't inform the members till about three weeks ago something like that er I've been telling everybody about it and I've had more response from non-members than I've had from members for it. Er I t I suspect that most of the tickets have gone to to people who you know who who are who I know and have rung up er not It's no good putting notices out,no nobody responds to that. Mm. You've got to ring people up and ask them. And then you've gotta ring them up and ask them again to see who's to see who Cos they usually say, Well I'll see what I can do, and then you've got to ring them up again and see if they've done anything, and and er and then sometimes you've gotta ring them up again. Er so it's very very difficult. I managed to get rid of about eighty and if we do sell these extra what twenty or thirty that's going to be between a hundred and a hundred and fifty pounds profit . about that profit yeah. Yeah. Because although the hotpots cost a pound er most people er will will buy drinks at the bar and er we'll make fifty P out of them in the evening at the bar so you know we'll make five pounds from anybody we sell tickets to from now on. Mm. Er so if you can if you can talk to y r ring up anybody you know and just ask them. You know. Mm. Did you say talk to or torture? Torture. Torture them. Yeah. But er it's less than a fortnight now. Er I also need people to help me on with the bar wi serving on the bar. Chris promised to help me buy the drinks and organize the that side of it getting the drinks. And help on the bar. And help on the bar. Right. Er so we'll need some help on in the evening on on the bar when also er we want some cakes as well cos we usually serve cakes with the hotpot, so if anybody would like to make a cake I'd be very grateful for that. Er I've already had some promised but it depends on how many people we get there you see. If we're going to get over a hundred we're going to need quite a a lot of cakes. Any er any questions about socials ? I'll promise one. You'll promised me a cake? Well done John . Ah excellent. Well done John. What would you like? Cherry pie? Cherry pie'll do fine. cherries. Cherries, right. Right. Yeah. A ques a question about the er raffle tickets. Oh right. Mm. Yes they've stripped me of my cash for tonight . Should I really have supported this venture rather than the raffle tickets? What are what what are we gonna get out of Both. What are we gonna get out of the raffle tickets? Er we get er three pounds er per complete book er out Right. of the five pounds for a for a full book Right. Fine. er of the raffle tickets. Just so that I've got some idea of er Yeah. Yeah. If I could just er just add to that, erm th the Cheltenham Gold Cup, er as I said earlier, produced us ninety four pound last year. Erm if we actually get into the th th t the top selling bracket er or the top ten as it were, erm bearing in mind that the top sales were one thousand three hundred and nineteen pounds, that particular group got an additional five hundred pounds as a prize for selling the the most tickets. Mm. The next figure down was nine nine hundred and ninety two pounds fifty. They got an award of two hundred pounds. Er that was at at Beverley. Erm the the third prize was erm seven hundred and fifty eight pounds sales from South Suffolk, they got a hundred pounds, and seven other er constituencies who sold between six hundred and ninety three pounds seventy five and five hundred and one pounds' worth of tickets got an extra fifty pound each. Over the erm four years th the last four years, er on aggregate, the income from the erm erm the draw has been one a hundred and thirty thousand pounds, er of which ninety five thousand pounds has benefited the Party, and most of that is at constituency level Mm. as against er Head Office. Mm. Er anybody that actually wants to see a list of the prizewinners from last year, from the actual race, I do have a copy er Yeah. which gives na all Executive Directors of the Company together we'll answer any questions at the end of this short presentation. First the figures, furniture retailing continues to be highly competitive so I am pleased to report that turnover for the twenty eight weeks was through to the twenty million five point five percent better than the same period in the previous year. Operating profit for the period was twenty seven point four million compared with a pro-forma level of nineteen point four million last year an increase of forty one per cent. Profit before tax which includes nineteen point six million pounds worth of profit from the sale of the Group's investment in Carpet Right was forty four point one compared to a loss of twelve million for the same period last year. An extra share of five P of which two point two P relates to the exceptional period on the sale of Carpet Right shares giving interest net earnings per share of two point eight P. In a few moments I'd like to tell you briefly about the trading background to the figures and to give you an indication of how business has been since the period ended and particularly since our important sale started on Boxing Day. But first I'll ask our Finance Director to go into the figures in a little bit more detail. Thank you good morning ladies and gentlemen,turnover grew by five point five per cent during the twenty eight weeks the sixth of November to three hundred and twenty million there's been no inflation in our selling prices so all of this growth is from increased volumes particularly in upholstery, beds, appliances and Pronto. Although the total retail trading area is unchanged at the period end there are in fact two different underlying elements new footage has been laid down in France but this has been off set by a net reduction in the retail trading area in the U K. The sales per square foot which excludes retail sales and is based on the waiting average trading area shows an increase of seven point two percent A low margin of fifty five point six per cent was down from fifty eight point five per cent in the same period last this, this was mainly due to a drop in in-house manufacturing participation and adverse exchange rates. Gross margin was as we expected broadly level with the second half of last year. The reduction and payroll costs of five million or six point eight per cent reflects the staff reductions which took place last year These are efficiency gains primarily in areas of management and distribution. As a result of tight every-day control costs other operating charges at seventy eight point seven million have fallen as the percentage of sales by point nine per cent to twenty four point six per cent and depreciation in the period has fallen by two point three million to eight point four million. Our sub-leasing of of surplus retail area has continued in the period and combined with a small programme of retail park developments will enable our retail area grow, sorry will enable our rental income to grow. Indeed rental income will be in excess of nine million pounds for the full year compared to seven million pounds for last year. Combined effects of these initiatives has resulted in operating profits rising to twenty seven point four million compared with the pro forma level of nineteen point four million last year, which is an increase of forty one per cent. Our net operating margins have risen from six point four per cent to eight point six per cent. There is a net interest charge in the period of three million which is a decrease of two point four million on the same period last year. This reflect the cash from the sale of the Group's investment in Carpet Right together with low interest rates. The profit on ordinary activities with more taxation was forty four point one million compared to a loss last year of twelve million but of course these two figures are not comparable. This year's number includes nineteen point six million profit on the sale of Carpet Right and last year's number includes twenty four point seven million flotation and buy-out costs. A more appropriate comparison is the profit before tax this year of twenty four point five million compared to a profit before tax last year of twelve point seven million an increase of ninety three per cent. The forecast tax charge for the year is thirty four per cent which is below last year's rate of thirty five and we expect this low rate to continue in the future. Earnings per share in the period were five p but after taking into account exceptional Carpet Right gain this is reduced to two point eight p and compares to last year's pro forma earnings per share of one point four million which included losses on the closing down of our operations. The cash position at the period end showed net borrowings of thirty nine point seven million which compares to eight two point seven million at the same time twelve months ago. has fallen over this period from seventy eight per cent to twenty eight per cent. During the period net borrowings have fallen by twenty one point eight million principally due to the twenty one point four million proceeds from Carpet Right. M F I traditionally has a stronger second half cash flow and net borrowings are expected to fall further in the second half of the year. Two other key elements were within our cash flow. First, stock levels were increased by nine point three million in preparation for our important winter sale. Secondly we utilised available A C T capacity in the group to obtain an early recovery of eleven and a half million of A C T and this would not normally have been recovered until January nineteen ninety five. Capital expenditure for the period was fourteen point six million and is likely to be twenty five million for the year. Although similar to last year's level of twenty three million you remember that last year's number included the purchase of four freehold properties for nine million pounds. You also know that on page nine of our interest statement we have created a non-distributable special reserve against which we are writing off our good-will reserve. This has created a capital structure more suitable for a listed company. Thank you for your attention I would now like to hand you back to Thanks and I'll just outline the background to the figures that has just presented to you. During the period new kitchen carcasses, stores worktops and the sinks all manufactured by Hygena were introduced into all out stores along with a number of improvements to our bedroom ranges. This will was completed in time for the sale period which began on Boxing Day. We opened a new store in Christ Christchurch and rebuilt our North Shields site replacing the M F I store with a completely new one. Two more stores will open in Cardiff and Yeovil at the end of next month bringing the total number of U K stores to one hundred and seventy eight. These two stores will trade under the name of Homeworks and will operate as a testing ground for M F I's mainstream business. They've been developed after considerable consumer research and will evaluate new products and new service ideas which if found acceptable will be taken up by the M F I chain. We've continued our programme of improvements to the M F I store design layout and presentation. Seven more stores have been completely refitted and a further eighty four thousand square feet of surplus space has been sub-leased to other retailers increasing our rental income by another half a million pounds. A new generation of a sell system has been successfully introduced into all our stores which integrates which integrates more closely the retailing distribution and manufacturing systems and raises the level of management information and control. Our new customer tracking system is giving us detailed information on customer tracking flows and purchasing bands and as a result we're refining staff working arrangements in all stores with a clear objective of increasing sales and improving customer service. These two important operational developments are now allowing our staff to make more productive use of their time enabling them to concentrate more effectively on serving customers and selling products. I am delighted to announce that we will soon manufacturing ovens at our Hygena factory in Stockton extending the range of products manufactured in-house follows on naturally as M F I's position as the leading ah retailer of built-in kitchen appliances. These new appliances will replace products imported from Europe and will retailed in our stores from Spring nineteen ninety five. Finally, I have to report that sales in France have increased by thirty per cent with like for like performance of six per cent on the same period last year. We now trade from forty eight locations in France with three more stores due to open in the second half of the financial year. To ensure that everybody's kept informed of our performance at regular intervals throughout the year we will in future announce our interim results in December, make a statement in February on the Winter sale performance announce final results in early July and give another trading statement at our A G M in September. Today today we're declaring an interim dividend of one point three three per share er compared with the same period this year er sorry let me start that again. Today we're declaring an interim dividend of one point three three per share compared with one point two five for the same period last year. This decision takes into account the need to rebuild dividend cover whilst ensuring that higher earnings are reflected in increased income to share holders, just excuse me one minute Current trading. Trading in the second has shown a clear improvement and since Boxing Day sales of fourteen per cent ahead of the previous year. In particular sales of kitchens and bedrooms have shown considerable increases and whilst we're pleased with the response to our new products we remain cautious on the outlook for consumer expenditure. Now ladies and gentlemen if you have any questions we'll be happy to answer them for you Can you just wait for the microphone because the guys at the back can't hear the question right, erm Could you, you said that your payroll costs had come down by five million that's figure is it? yeah erm sorry Have you got the figures there ? Yeah, the payroll costs for the first half of last year were seventy three point eight million the payroll costs for the first half of the review were sixty eight point eight right so it's for the half year sorry, beg your pardon five million half year that's correct yes Fine okay and how many employees do you now have six thousand six thousand seven the average number is a six thousand seven hundred and seventy four it's actually erm financial highlights and I'll just check give you the exact figure six seven seven four right that's a headcount that's not it is for equipment that's equipment right, and how's that compared with the previous period last year well the year we had seven thousand five hundred and seventy nine sorry could you repeat that again please seven thousand five hundred and seventy nine and at the same period last year which is November nineteen ninety two we have seven thousand eight hundred and forty three right erm could I just check something else which was not mentioned er is that is it when you have opened these two Homeworks shops that you'll be up to a hundred and seventy eight yes that's and I was wondering if you could tell us a bit more about these Homework how they fit the M F I the plan of shopping well the reason that we've changed the name on those two stores is that any experiments we want to conduct have got to be conducted outside the normal M F I promotional platform and as we use the national press extensively the only way to do that is to change the name. We had a long series of various pieces of research, one of which was actually talk to enormous amount of customers through customer and as a consequence of that we've we decided to form a fairly business to produce a very different pair of stores, different in that they won't trade in the traditional way that M F Is gone ah they'll carry different merchandise, different price lines. Now what it is actually is a idea that part of our research and development actually engages the customer so that in the stores it's very difficult to experiment in say half a dozen when the national press is out there every week making an offer that you don't carry by definition like that So what bits are more up market more down market what would you say about that What we're actually doing in terms of the product is we're actually widening the franchise erm I don't like to use words going up market that suggests that we're leaving our core customers behind, we will we will add any product that is complimentary to our core kitchens but er we'll still be the main stance of the product in these two stores for instance, we're going to introduce a house wear department it is something that we've been experimenting with before we're going to erm use the opportunity to widen the franchise on appliances we're going to erm use the an experiment on erm floorings to match work tops, those kind of developments just to test to see whether the customer reaction is as good as we hoped it would be so that we can then introduce it in the main chain Do they have to be a lot bigger these stores No they're just two standard stores, one's twenty five thousand square feet in Yeovil which as you will be aware is a market town with a fairly wide catchment area and in Cardiff which where we're opposite Marks and Spencers on an out-of-town development so they're just two stores virtually picked because they were ready to open right, my final question have you talked to erm Do It All about buying in in their outfit? We've certainly talked to Do It All ha ha erm yes that's definite yes thank you Can you tell us a bit more about this Well it's a both a fortunate and unfortunate circumstance as a result of the by-out a sorry as a result of the floatation we cut a great many costs which reduced our taxable profits but at the same time we did actually pay some divides and we've also pay some dividends here in last year anyway. The complication has been that because last year's trading profits were lower than expected we didn't have any taxable profits against which to claim back this A C T so as this would be the first year in which taxable profits would arise unless we'd not been unless we'd been able to find some other way of dealing with it the A C T which we pay would not have been recoverable till January ninety five. What we have done is we have erm been able to utilise some A C T capacity or generate some A C T capacity within one of the subsidiaries within the group um the reason for highlighting it highlighting it is not particularly to make a song and dance about it but is particularly to say that on the cash flow statement there is this in-flood and it is a one off in-flood we're not going to be seeing that being brought forward every year, but basically what it is is we have profits in previous elements of the group which enabled us to generate A C T capacity enabled us to off set this A C T which we paid on dividends and bringing forward earlier than we would otherwise have done. oh right Conversely had we had the profits last year which would have generated taxable profits then we wouldn't have needed to have done that, so that's one reason why it was not disclosed on floatations at the time and floatation was not regarded as an asset. It's not an asset unless you can use it. Right if you can show us erm a main stream corporation last year yes, but not again not one which we're not able to off set this particular payment I'm not sure you've made it any clearer than it was before but erm well don't look at me I can't help ya how do you feel about the erm deal and a I think a I think that a regional high street outlet will provide a threat to us certainly and it's not clear yet which way they're gonna try that business, but yes we are working at it very hard If the erm Homeworks experiment is successful could we see many more stores turning over to that that format and that that or will you consider converting the whole chain or might you just have a separate chain called Homesworks? No I don't think either erm The whole emphasis of Homeworks is to learn things there which we can then bolt on to the main chain, I'll be absolutely amazed if in fact Homeworks manages to drive anywhere near the amount of customers through it that M F I does or the problem we had in Yeovil is because it is a very rural area a is not having the M F I name above the door so no that is not the intention. I do believe, however, we'll learn things from it that we can quickly adapt and put into the hundred and seventy six M F I stores. How big sales in France and how big are the sales in France and how do margins compare with the U K Well the total sales in France for this year will be around twenty five million pounds for the whole year? for the whole year so it's a very small business the stores are much smaller than they are in the U K erm as regards your last point about margins the margins are erm at least equal to the margins that we achieve in the U K Is that ? Oh sorry erm we are expect the business this year to break even it broke even last year, erm and the reason for that is that we have expanded business very rapidly, last year we had only thirty five stores this year we'll have fifty and we will probably have a similar sort of expansion programme for next year. The cost of that level of expansion ah were largely written off against revenue or a large part of against revenue with the effect that reduces the business to break even. What what proportion of the fourteen per cent sales rise since ah Christmas relates directly to to mark downs in that period after Boxing Day when you re- opened? None in the conventional sense that I take it that you mean mark down you mean clearing merchandise yeah yes, discounting merchandise is something we do all the time it's just that the discounts are different in January and the merchandise to which they're applied may be different. We don't have a in our business as many other retailers do where for instance after Christmas may be and other such things to clear we don't have that, so there isn't any merchandise that's been sold since Christmas that has been sold because we don't want it to be in the inventory post year end it's it's just generating trade by being discount price left so therefore to a certain amount your question would be has the post Christmas and it was pre Christmas no material difference we're very satisfied with the gross margins since Christmas we haven't had to take any extraordinary measures to generate this erm this level of sales increase that's being achieved at constant margin a flat margin I think the ah just to remind you what we have always said is that that would improve our gross margin situation would be a change in in house manufacturing goods and whilst it's a bit early to tell we are actually saying to you that the sales post Boxing Day have been in addition What proportion of is now made in house? It's more than sixty per cent and eight five per cent is made in the U K just about almost as a matter of interest that's actually would be higher than any other retailer in Britain actually that's not commonly known no other retailer who has a penetration of whatever he sells as high as M F I does Could you just repeat the figures for capital expenditure I think you said that this year was going to be higher than last year and explain explain where the money gonna be invested Well this year's capital expenditure will be around twenty five million and last year's figure was twenty three million the point I was making in the speech was that twenty three million included nine million pounds for the, we must have some static in our nine million pounds for the purchase of freeholds, erm but the capital expenditure this year is spread right across the operation includes introduction of erm re-fits in a number of stores includes expansion in France, investment in systems and hardware and indeed also includes ah about five million pounds for a retail park development which I also referred to the park development on which we have an interest in the sense that we are developing an M F I store. and of course if you want to include a small element this year a greater element would be for the new open plan. Just a couple of detail points erm why have you seen a fall in your depreciation charge and an increase in ? Right I'll deal with with depreciation. Depreciation's been falling now for two or three years as our capital expenditure of depreciable assets has been falling indeed if you look at last year's net of the nine million pounds purchase of the freehold to fourteen million the year before was only sixteen million erm so as the as the depreciation as the capital expenditure falls the depreciation will also fall that's one reason. The other reason was in the late eighties and early nineties we had a very large expenditure programme indeed in one year amounting to one hundred million pounds now of that are now becoming fully depreciated and falling out of the charge what ah capital expenditure on non depreciable assets erm, freehold parks, as I said last year we bought nine million pounds worth of freehold now tended to depreciate with all this not freehold land freehold buildings we've been depreciating now for many many years. so you know we've actually been doing that is not new as far as we're concerned okay no particular reason for the rise its general movements and not a serious movement as far as we're concerned includes the whole element of debtors from ourselves to our wholesale debtors which is our own manufacturing operation where they're selling to outside customers there's nothing particularly significant in that. How many re-fitted stores have you got now then how many are you planning to re-fit over the next year? We've got in the new format sixty of the new new format but what we have been able to do is take elements of the new re-fitted stores and put those for instance erm Pronto we've managed to take those and re-fit them separately but the actual new concept stores sits at about sixty-odd stores and currently what we're doing is to check the that we have had a a re-fits this year erm where we've taken space for other sub-lets where put the new concept back to but as far as the go in majority of the chain now we have most of the major elements i.e an upholstery area bed area Pronto representation and indeed the re-fit that was discussed in the Chairman's statement the kitchen and bedroom re-fit erm was applicable to all stores so all of the stores have got new kitchens and bedrooms in So no further re-fitting will substantially yeah, erm I would take a guess that there will be because we still have ambitions to shed a load of space so it would be advisable to re-fit to release further space we have another twenty six smaller stores that we haven't done at all yet other than put a so yes we'll have an on-going re-fit programme I can't give you the exact details because erm how many it's gonna be but there will be certainly an on-going re-fit programme. What is Pronto's inflation Pronto is erm an area of the store where we sell our occasional furniture and erm small priced coffee tables, hi-fi units the occasional furniture that may go erm whereas up until a couple of years ago we use to display this product around the showroom floor part of the new concept stores was that we actually set the same section in the showroom which is very much like a a shelving system whereby the stock actually sits on the shelves, the customer walks in and it's an easy easy purchase straight off the trolley erm very much like the supermarket operation so it's the lower priced good value occasional type furniture the cash and carry the kind of things that you don't need sales assistants for the kind of bookcase that you would put in your children's bedroom that kind of thing. As part of the what the stores back in the mid eighties were more expensive suites and so too conflicting we had a fifty or twenty five pound coffee table we sold the two greater mixture so its a methodology of just an ordinary table for exactly without conflict. What were these what was the sales area of the how much sales area did you actually release in the first half and how much do you expect to go in the second? I'll give you the answer to that one just bear with me a moment please I'll try to be precise. right the erm trading area the closing trading area at the end of the November ninety three was six thousand and forty sorry six million forty thousand square feet at the previous year in April ninety three it was six million and thirty six thousand square feet that includes France does it? That includes France which has seen an increase in footage of a thirty thousand square feet and we've also got a number of sub-lets we've indicated that erm sub-lets should pay reduces it do these figures include or exclude that sub-let they include the sub-let space and where we sub-let space we deduct that space from the trading area figure right has it still gone up? yeah, because we've opened stores in France and we've also a new store in the U K there's pluses and minuses there's pluses in France pluses in the U K with one new store erm and minuses with the sub-lets sorry just remind us what proportion is is a flat pack represents of your total sales unclear fifteen something low eighty per cent obviously varies low eighty low eighty, low eighty it various from season to season as upholstery is more popular or less popular as beds are more popular at the the other question, how seriously do you view the likely impact of the new the budget er change come coming into force in the spring on purchases of consumer durables such as yours bearing in mind your and your customer profile? Yeah I mean we did insert actually in the Chairman's statement a cautionary note about the credit announcement because two years ago we had a similar increase which in fact by the time we got to the end of the year had disappeared so we view it with a lot of caution is the answer if you ask me to be more precise I can't because we've never really had a set of tax increases the like of which we face now any other questions? In fact we oh sorry yes erm sub-lets erm, on the sub-lets a big package deals with any other retailers and what would be the biggest Oh the erm if there is a sort of major beneficiary that Carpet Right because of course we owned the in them fairly decent straight throughout Currys, Dixons and some of the market people Quicksave erm, the sort of spread you'd expect on any retail park you know. I think that part of our business makes it more difficult because ah the purchase of Allied Carpets by Carpetland is the space of the market at a fairly speedy rate and I personally believe other retailers will have the policy to sub-let surface areas in the next few years so it's something we got on with three years ago and very pleased we did it. Thank you very much for your attention gentlemen Okay. Now what we'll do do you like pizza? Yeah. I've got some stale pizza here do you like stale pizza? Do you we could make that into a whole pizza? Okay right that's lovely. Now do you know what any of these are? Do you know what fraction that would be of a whole pizza? Er What fraction's that? Well don't worry if you don't know. How many of those would you need to make a whole pizza? Erm Let's have a look one two Three And this one here? erm four. So we need four of those to make a whole pizza so we call that a fourth well the Americans call it a fourth Fourth. we call we've got a special name for it we call it a quarter . Quarter. And we write it like this. It's one on the top and there's the table and then Mhm. the fourth underneath. One shared out that just means one shared between four. Fra fractions are a bit of a cheat really because this is what we do we say let's have a look at the page how much would you get if you had one and you shared it out between four and you just write well it's one shared out between four. You haven't really got the answer at all you've just written it differently and that's all it means whatever you're sharing out goes on the top what ever number of people of people it's being shared out between go underneath. Erm do you normally sit on the table stand on the table? No. No. if your mum brought a pizza in would we put it under the table or on the table? On the table. On the table so whatever you're sharing out goes on top there's the table put some little legs on okay there's the table whatever you're sharing out goes on top and we're sitting here with our knees under the table okay so the people are underneath the table. How about if we had one shared out between three people have a guess at what it would look like the fraction. One erm three. One over three that's a third. Now can you show me here any are there any pieces there is there a piece there that would be a third? So that you'd get move those round a bit so that you'd get Say that pizza came in like that and your mum sat down there said, Right we're having some pizza we're going to share this out between the three of us so we all get the same sized piece. How big a piece would we get? One of those? How many how many pieces like that would you get out of it? A lot I think cos this this bit's a quarter isn't it and we'd get that'd be enough if we cut it into quarters how many quarters would we get? Erm How many of those would we get? Erm Right right that'd be that'd be the same as well wouldn't it that'd be another quarter. How many How many quarters would we get out of this piece here? One two Two so so we'd get four quarters right four fourths if you like that's one fourth one quarter. We'd get four fourths. So if there are less people sharing it out are we going to get more pizza or are we going to get less? More. We're going to get more so it's going to be a bigger piece that that isn't it it's going to be bigger than the quarter. Can you see any pieces that are bigger than the quarter? That one okay. So let's see if we could get three pieces like that out of a whole one? Yeah cos these that'd make another one wouldn't it. Mm. Let's have a look. One One two two And this one do you want to put that on there. And they'd be all the same size so if we had a piece like those two stuck together Three. that'd be that'd go round three people evenly so that'd be a third if we had these two pieces stuck together that'd be a third Yeah. and this one that's a third . Third. So one shared out between three people is a third. Now what I'd like you to do is show me can you divide it up if we were going to eat this whole pizza between the two of us if it was one one shared out between two people how much would we get? Mm. Erm Show me again. Those Would that be it? Yeah. So that how big a what's that ? Half. That's a half. So one shared out between two people is just one a half again okay. Where do you think erm how would we write one shared out between six people? How would we write it? One and the table and then the six. That's it so that's what a sixth looks like. What does it mean? Well it means we had one and we shared it out between six people. Now any idea what one sixth would look like? We found out what one shared out between three people is like that's a third. If we shared it out between six people would we get more or would we get less? Less. We'd get less wouldn't we. erm how many of how many of these would we need to go all the way round? It takes two of those takes two of those to make a third to make . Two. So how many thirds did we have? Three Three thirds that's it three thirds. Now let's say let's say your mum came in and she said how many for this pizza and we said oh just the three of us and she cut it cut it up into three pieces three pieces all the same size. Cut it into three thirds. Show me how how big they'd be. Show me which one's a third. Right that one or those two stuck together would make a third. Or these bits stuck together. So we'd get one third and then just as we were going to eat it three other people came in. And said, Oh can't we have some. How would you share it out so we all got the same? We you you've got let's say let's say there's your third you've got your third. And I'm sitting next to you right. And so there are six people all together there's your mum and your dad okay and then there's two friends over there and we're sitting here. So mum and dad have half of that third they'd share it out between them so they got Mm. Me and me friend'd have half of that one . Yeah yes. So you'd need six Six. of these six pieces like that. Now that's what's that Kerry if we get six like that make a whole one? A half oh If it needs six like that to make the whole one these this is one sixth. Cos this is what you get if you have one shared out between six people so they all get the same okay. So that's that's one sixth okay. Now don't worry about this is it going do you think it's going a bit quickly? Okay. Do you think we're doing a lot all in one go? Mm I'll just show you one last one and then we'll we'll we'll start this again and have a little look at the beginning. Now let's say we've done that we thought there were three people here so you though you were getting a third right. And then there were twice s many people there were six people. So you had to share yours with someone else and you just got a sixth okay. And then just as you were about to eat that another six people turned up so there were twelve altogether and you'd have to shar share that Yeah. with some one else. Let me just get down there. just get that little piece. Now that's the piece that you'd get if there were twelve of you sharing out one pizza so what do you think that's called? Have a guess doesn't matter if it's not right. A twelfth? A twelfth yes great that's a twelfth and how would we write it? One Shared out between twelve people equals what would it look like ? equals one table One and then th one on top of the table and underneath? Twelve. Twelve that's it. So that's one twelfth and that's what it looks like. How many twelfths would you need to make a sixth? Two. Good and how many sixths how many sixths would you need to make a third? Two. Erm how many how many twelfths would you need to make a quarter? Think how many you'd need. That's one three. Three right so perhaps someone had divided this pizza up and all the extra people kept coming in and your mum was saying, Oh no I thought there were going to be three and now there's six of us. Right cut it into six. Oh no more turning up twelve of us cut it into twelfths. Yeah and then she's already cut it up into twelfths like this and then she thinks about asking them who wants pizza and there's only four of them want pizza after all this trouble. So one pizza shared out between four people how much are they going to get each? One shared out between four is? A fourth. A fourth or a special name for it a quarter Quarter. and that's what it looks like. So we'd have that but she's already cut them all up into twelfths so how many twelfths how many twelfths would we get each? Three. Three so she'd say, Oh you know mind I've cut it up a bit do you you shouldn't it's still a quarter still a quarter you haven't lost a bit of it but it's still a quarter three twelfths is the same as a quarter. exactly the same isn't it you get the amount. How about how about if she had erm say just the two of us just the two of us and share one pizza between the two of us how much would you get each? Er So it's it's one shared out between two. Yeah a half. A half right. So your mum's cut it up or you've cut it up this time just between the two of us and you've cut it into two halves you've got half there and I've got another half. And then another two people come in so we've got four people all together. How much are we going to get now if we share one between four people? It'll be Thirds. one shared out between four Fourths. A fourth exactly a fourth. So we'll get a fourth we get one of those how many fourth would you get out of a half? Two. Two you don't do you remember the special name for a Quarter. Quarter so how many quarters would you get out of a half? Two. Right and how many halves make a quarter? Mm one. How many oh I said that the wrong way round didn't I. How many quarters make a half? Two. Two brilliant. Very good okay. Erm can you remember what size that is? It's a quarter. Let's have a look that one is a quarter and this one's a bit bigger. A sixth. So we must be shared now this is the interesting thing which do you think is bigger, a a sixth or a third. A third. Yeah in the the number on the bottom is bigger but that just means you've got to share it out between more people so do you get more or less if you share it between more people? Less. You get less. So as the number on the bottom is getting bigger You get less . the fraction's getting smaller and smaller the piece you get is getting less and less. That was all we got when it was a twelfth a little tiny piece like that. So that's a sixth and that's a third which is bigger? Yeah which one's bigger? The the sixth. The Third. The thir it sounds as if the sixth should be bigger doesn't it cos it's got a six in it. A third's only got a three in but the third is bigger. How many sixths would you need to make up a third? Try it. Try this. Mm. Erm two. Two so two sixths would make a third. Now this is two sixths that we've use to make the third. How many twelfths would make a sixth? A sixth. Okay here here's a sixth Mm. and how many twelfths would make a sixth? Two. Right very good. Now a tricky one how many twelfths would make a third? There's the third two sixths how many twelfths would you need? One two Two okay. three Yeah. four. Four so four twelfths'd make a third. So if our mum had cut it up into twelve pieces and then only three people wanted pizza so she cut it up into twelve twelfths and then said who wants pizza and only three people wanted pizza she'd now have to put some of these twelfths back together again then and just three of us how many twelfths would we get? One two three four. Four so we'd get four twelfths. Okay what do you think about fractions? They're hard when you know how to do them but like If you don't know what they mean i anything if you don't know how to do it it's hard but if you don't even know what they mean it's very hard to work out what's going on isn't it and what you're supposed to be doing. Do you think you're getting a a better idea of what they mean what it's about. It's just sharing out. I mean if I said, Share six Mars bars between two of us. how many would we get each? Erm Six Mars bars share them out between two of us. There's six share it out between the two of us. Three each. Three each okay now if I said share erm if I said share ten pence between five people how many would they get each? Well how many fives make ten? Two. two each. Now if I said share five pence between ten people what would you say about that?a bit hard isn't it. Mm. So say we put the people into pairs into sets of two. How many sets of two would those people make then if there were ten of them? How many twos make ten? Five. Five good so we'd have all the people sitting round a table five sets or two. Perhaps they could both sit on one chair between one chair between the two of them. And then with the five pennies we could say well penny between you two, penny between you two, another penny between you two, between you two,an . So that the five pence we shared it out and we've given each two each two people one penny between them. How much would they have then? If we had the penny between the two of us how much would we get each? Nothing. Nothing okay if we had the pizza between the two of us how much would we get each? One shared out between two. How much would we get each? Half. That's it okay. Erm so if we had one penny shared out between two of us we get a half a penny each a half penny which they don't have any more they used to but they have them any more. So fractions it's only sharing. It's just like sharing I mean if we had two pizzas and we shared them between the two of us how many would whole. We'd have a whole one. If we had erm four pizzas and we shared them between the two of us how many would we get? Four share it out between two of us Two. We'd get two each. Mhm. If we had six pizzas and we shared them out between two of us how three pizzas each. We'd get three each so it's just fractions are just sharing. It's just that what happens is we we've got less sometimes we have less pizzas than we've got people. Okay so we've got one pizza share it out between the two of us we get? A half. Share it out between four of us how many would we get? A Twelfth. If we shared it out between twelve of us we'd get a twelfth. Get erm Share it out between four of us we get Quarter. A quarter yeah. You could say a fourth it doesn't matter it's the same thing. Erm if we shared it out between six of us? A sixth. How about if we shared it out between a tenth of us. Have a guess go on. If we share it out between four of us it's a fourth if we share it A tenth. A tenth yes brilliant very good. How many fourths make up a whole how many fourths to make a whole one? Four. Four how many how many sixths make up a whole one? Have a guess. How many tenths make a whole one you got it right said ten. Ten. How many how many sixths make a whole one? Six. Yeah good good. How many twelfths make a whole one? Twelve. Very good erm alright go for an impossible one how many mm how many twentieths make a whole? Twenty. Yep. I think you've got it haven't you. How many hundredths make a whole one? A hundred. Yeah. That's it. Now which is bigger a sixth of a third? A third. Very good very good now a lot of people take a long time to get that. They keep saying well a sixth must be bigger cos six is bigger. that's how many people you're sharing with so that's very good you got that very quickly. Oh I'm very pleased I think you're going to like fractions aren't you. If you if you don't understand things it gets very hard to like them cos you d just don't know what's going on do you? Once you get to know a bit what's happening. And you get good at doing it then it's, Hey I can do this. Then you start liking it. So do you think you're going to get on alright with fractions? Yeah when we've had a look at fractions a bit erm we'll play with those and we'll find out things like what's half of a quarter things like that. So what does that's when you start thinking about half of a quarter it gets very confusing what do you mean do you mean half or a quarter? Well what they mean when they say a half of a quarter is that we had a a quarter and we've shared it out between the two of it so we've got half to that each. How much would we get? Have a guess. It's not one that we've met so far so it's a completely new one. A fifth? If we had there's a quarter. How many of those to go all the way round? Erm How many quarters would make a whole one? Four. Four okay good. If we cut each one of those into two pieces the same, how many of the new pieces would we need to go all the way round? Four oh We need we need four like that four quarters that's good and then for each one of those when we've cut it in two it would give us two of the new pieces so every one of those four would give us two new pieces how many would we have altogether then? We'd have four lots of two wouldn't we do you know what that is four twos? Or two fours? Two's two four eight. Eight so we'd have eight pieces all the same size and what would that be called have a guess? An eighth. That's it an eighth. That's an eighth. So two eighths would make a quarter. Two quarters would make A third. A half. Oh. Would make a half and two halves would make A whole. That's it good. That's very good. Okay so don't need to learn all the fractions but we need to we'll probably just go playing with these the ones we've got here. Now which is bigger? What's what size is this? A fourth. A fourth okay which is bigger a fourth or a sixth? A fourth. A fourth. Now let's see how much bigger. Well it's that much bigger isn't it. Can you see any there that would just fit in that? Right so if we added together a sixth and a twelfth what will it make? This one here what's this? A quarter. A quarter so a sixth and a twelfth makes a quarter Quarter. now this isn't I mean there are some funny rules with fractions aren't there sort of tricky things you have to do. Not that tricky once you understand them. And we didn't make them up. Just to make it hard it's because this is how it really works when we're sharing out things. So a quarter how many twelfths ion a quarter? Three. Three twelfths in a quarter. That's what size is this piece go on say it. A sixth. A sixth how many twelfths would we need top make a sixth? Two. Two. So if we had a sixth and a twelfth well the sixth is the same as two twelfth and another twelfth makes how many? Two twelfths from there and then an extra twelfth how many have we got? Two two twelfths there and then another twelfth. Excuse me would you like another drink? Erm I wouldn't mind actually I I can't drink milk actually I'm it's okay I did say but yeah yeah yeah so so just black no sugar that'd be lovely thanks. Oh look I'm sorry I'm sorry So black black okay. Now and so that's A sixth. two twelfths there. That's sixth one sixth but you could make two twelfths out of that. And another twelfth. What would two apples plus one apple come to? Three. Three apples okay. Have a guess what do you think two twelfths add one twelfth comes to how many twelfths would that come to? Two and the an extra one two twelfths and an extra one twelfth how many twelfths would we have altogether? Have a guess. We've got two pears and then we had we had say two bananas and then another banana how many bananas would we have then . Three. If we had two pigs and another pig how many pigs would we have? Three. If we had two twelfths and another twelfth how many twelfths would we have altogether? Three twelfths. That's it three three twelfths. And three twelfths is the same as a quarter isn't it. We stuck three twelfths together we can make a quarter. Do this is how we have to add up fractions. If if I say well let's try and add up a sixth and a twelfth and most people want to add the six and the twelve together and things like that but you can't do it that way you'll have to change them both into something that's the same. twelfths is a good one quite often and then we'll add up and find out how many twelfths we've got. And then see what that how many that would make. So three three twelfths that would make a quarter . A quarter. So a sixth plus one twelfth is A quarter. good very good oh that's good. Okay how about if we added here's a tricky one see if you can work out how we're going to do it. A quarter add a sixth. Now could you turn them all into twelfths? Yeah. Okay how many twelfths would there be in the quarter? How many twelfths would there Three. Three twelfths good and how many twelfths would there be in the sixth? Two. So how many twelfths would we have altogether? Five. Five brilliant. So we'd have five twelfths. That's very good. Thanks very much . Okay. Okay thanks. So we'd have five twelfths. Right erm now you're doing very well at this. Let's try this one. Quite a big one. That one's this one's a quarter and remember what this one is? A third. A third good. So if we added a third and a quarter could you turn them into twelfths? Yeah. Okay go on how many Three. Good. Two let's have a look at that one put it there. How much is that bit there that we haven't haven't covered? A quarter. A quarter and how many twelfths in a quarter? Three. Three so there's three twelfths there and that one makes? Seven. Good. So it's seven twelfths altogether so if we add a third to a quarter Third and a quarter Say add a third and a quarter can't do that don't know where to start. Change them into twelfths Seven. and add the twelfths up seven twelfths. Okay how about erm this one? Now this time we don't need to change them into twelfths could you add that's a half add a sixth? Any idea what we could change this into so we could add them? erm What could we change that half into so that we could one sixth to it? Go on have a guess. Twelfths or We could twe change it into twelfths yes and we could change the six into twelfths see what that would come to. How many twelfths would we get in that? Two. Two in there and how many twelfths would we get out of the half? Seven erm We'd get t two Two out of that and then another two Two. would be four Four. and another two Would be six. Six so six twelfths makes a half. Yeah. Six twelfths and another Eight. two twelfths is eight Eight. twelfths right. So if we add a half To a to a sixth. to a sixth we get eight twelfths . Eight. Okay. Erm we could even do it without bothering with twelfths on this. We could just change them into sixths. How many sixths would we get out of a half? Two. have a look. Three. that's a half okay so three sixths add one sixth Sixth. how many would that be? Three four. Four sixths. And four sixths comes to the same as two thirds. One third and another third. Mm. Okay have you done cancelling fractions? No. No. Okay have you done things like erm three twelfths is the same as a quarter? have you done that at school? I'm not too sure really. No well you may have done. But this is the this is the secret with fractions this is the trick. So that you can do anything. To be able to change them into different fractions. So you you'll already know how to change a sixth into twelfths don't you? How many twelfths does that make? Two. Two twelfths good. And you know how to change a quarter into twelfths how many twelfths does that make? Three. Three twelfths good and can you remember how many twelfths you got out of a half? Mm one two three four five six. Six twelfths. So what would a half add a twelfth come to? Seven. Seven twelfths very good. You're doing all this in your head you know you're not writing any of it down are you? Doing fractions in your head. Adding them up I think that's very good. I think that's excellent. You could probably do take aways. Take away fractions . You don't think you could I think you could. What would be a quarter take away a twelfth? Cut that off. Two. Two twelfths. And two twelfths is the same as? One quarter. One sixth yeah one sixth. So you're doing take aways in your head now. A quarter take away a twelfth. What about a sixth take away a twelfth what would that come to? One twelfth . One twelfth one twelfth. How about one third take away one twelfth what would that come to? Mm. Three. Three twelfths which is the same as Mm one fourth. A fourth. Okay erm how about a half take away a twelfth? How many would we have left over? Four five. Five five twelfths cos we started off with six twelfths take one twelfth away start off with six pigs and take one pig away got five pigs. Start off with six twelfths and take one twelfth away you've got five twelfths. I think you're very good at this. What do you think? Do you think you're getting you know you know what it's about don't you? Yes. Well I think that's very good. Okay erm what I'd like you to do now is I'd like you to tell me what you think are the important things about fractions and anything important or interesting that you've learnt this afternoon. What what was the most interesting thing? Did Well you find any of it interesting? Was it better than school or worse than school? Better . Oh that's good . And what was good about it then? Working them out and then . Good don't forget if I go too quickly or if I give you too much say, Ooh hang on. and I probably won't stop I'll just tell you a different way. Probably tell you the same thing a different way. And Do you think you understand do you know what fractions are about? How would suppose you have you got any brothers and sisters? One sister and me nanna. Okay and how old's she? Erm eight. Eight so if you had to explain to her about fractions, how could you tell her about what's what is it all Er about this fractions? It's the same if you're erm erm tell her the take aways and how many twelfths in like a whole and stuff like that. So it's all about sharing things out and it gets into this sort of fractions when we get when there's not enough to go round and we have to start cutting things up cutting the pizza up. Okay erm now have you got any work to do during the holiday any homework No. or schoolwork? None okay do you think the fractions were more interesting than erm what numbers add up to make ten? Mm. Mm. Yeah. And more interesting than tables. Yeah . Yeah oh definitely hey. Well sometimes when I was asking you things like erm say if I asked you how many quarters to make a whole one? How many quarters make a whole one? Four. Four good. And for every quarter we need three twelfths so we need four lots of three twelfths how many twelfths to make a whole one? Three erm Right now if you know your tables if you knew three fours or four threes it'd be a lot easier wouldn't it. Now the trouble with fractions is if you don't know your tables it can be you can work it out you could get there but it'll take a long time if you do know your tables you just go, Yeah three fours are twelve. Four threes twelve. straight away like that. If you don't know them it's going to take you a long time. Now if you're doing fractions with the others and they know their tables what's going to happen? I'm gonna be slower than them. They're going to keep being first all the time and you'll be thinking, Hang on hang on I haven't worked that out. You know you can do it you can do the fractions and once you've turned it into twelfths you can do it. But you're going to be finding out they're all rushing off ahead and you haven't worked out how many twelfths there are in two thirds or things like that. Once you work it out you can do it but you need your tables to do that. So I'll get some tables for you for next time erm if Will I need to erm buy a maths book or anything to write in? No have you got any any sort of pad like this will do anything to write in. But I do want you to write some things for next time. Erm have you got a have you got pad or anything ? Yeah I've got got got this little book in here. Okay. Right well the first thing I'd like to have you got counters or have you got a Counters? a big jar with pennies in or anything like that? Yeah. You have that's good. If you get just pennies out right. If you'd like to make a a little note of what I want you to do. I'll tell you what it I I want you to do first and then you can write it down. I want you to get ooh start of with twelve pennies okay. Twelve pennies and then use them you know the way we were working out things like three times four makes twelve. Set them out like this okay so that's three fours or four threes make twelve okay. How else could we make twelve? We could make two sixes or six twos. twelve. I'd like you to play with that and just with twelve pennies until you've found all the ways of arranging them like that. So they can show what two numbers multiply together to make twelve. Then I'd like you to try thirty six. Thirty six. Maybe maybe twenty four first okay. So try twelve pennies and find all the numbers that will multiply together to make twelve and one you mentioned earlier which was very good cos a lot of people forget it was just twelve ones or one twelve. Okay so try it with twelve first of all and then try it with twenty four and see all sorts of numbers that will make twenty four. So you could try it like this if we had twenty four we could see what happens if you make them into twos? Would that work? Yes that would work. What happened if you make them into threes? How many lots of three would you make? You might find it works you might find you've got some left over in which case it doesn't work you can't make sets of three out of them. And then try fours and fives and sixes. Do you think fives would work with twenty four? Mm. Your five times table always end in a in what? Five. Or a nought don't they? Yeah. Does twenty four end in a five or a nought? No. Ends in a four. No so it wouldn't so it wouldn't work wouldn't work with the fives. So you try it with the sixes see if they work try it with the sevens try it with the eights see what works. And find all the just just play with them and find out all the things and write down your answers. What numbers would multiply together to make twelve? What numbers would multiply together to make twenty four? and then try it again for thirty six okay. Yeah. So if you like to write that one down. And then if you've done that by next time got all them all written down and you're quite happy and you want to go on and do some more try it with sixty pennies. Sixty. Sixty pennies okay. Now have you had your tea yet? No. Have you just come in from school. What time do you get in No I came home at half two today. Cos you'd finished early did you ? Yeah. Okay so you'd had a bit of a break that's good. Erm the other thing I'd like you to do is adding up all all the numbers that make ten. Okay do you want to make a note of that and do you remember how we did it? Erm yeah erm You could do it with your coins again if you like. So we started with five add five didn't we? Yeah. Cos that was the first one that you know. Five add five makes ten. What did we do then? Mm. We we took one out of there that made s six Six add. Six add four makes Right. Six add four makes ten. And what would four ad six make? S ten. Right so you worked out that you've only got to learn half of them. Don't want to I want you to learn things but there's no point in learning everything twice is there or learning more than you need to at the moment. Just learn we'll try and find some easy ways for you to learn it erm cos I think you're a good learner you've learnt a lot today haven't you? So direct proportionality. And inverse. Not too too much trouble with that. Okay if erm so one of the questions that comes up a lot is speed and distance and time. And that's a good example of both types there. So let's say we keep the erm You've got to get from here to Birmingham. If you go faster, erm what happens to the time it takes? Less time. Right. So if I go twice as fast, does that mean it's gonna take me twice as long to get there? No. No. So it's inversely proportional . Yeah. If I go twice as fast, it'll take me one over two, so that's a half as long. Okay right. If I go ten times as fast, I get there in one tenth of the time. And that's all it is. That's all the inverse proportionality. Direct proportionality, if I'm driving at a steady sixty miles an hour, how far would I go in erm one hour? Sixty miles. How far would I go in ten hours, if I'm going at a steady sixty miles an hour? How far would I go? Doing sixty miles every hour, and I keep going for ten hours. So Six hundred, So so I do six hundred miles. Erm If I've got sixty miles to do, and I do it at erm do it at sixty miles an hour, it takes me one hour. If I do it at half the speed, just do it at thirty miles an hour, how long will that take? Two hours. If I do it at half the speed. Trying to cover a a distance. Trying to cover sixty miles, okay, Trying to cover sixty miles so I do it again at sixty miles an hour. Takes one hour. Now if I do it at half that speed, if I do if I drive at thirty miles an hour, how long will it take me to do the sixty miles? Two hours. Right. Two hours. So this is the speed and distance and time thing gets very confusing, because some of it is direct proportional, right so the faster you go, the more distance you could travel in a fixed in an hour say. Obviously sixty miles an hours means if you keep going for an hour, you do sixty miles. Thirty miles an hour, keep going for an hour you'll only do thirty. So how far you go is directly proportional to how fast. Yeah. If you say, How far would you go in an hour, keep the time fixed so we're not changing all three things, cos then it's really confusing. So keep one of them fixed. Change another one. So it's keep the first one fixed, change the second one, and see how the third one changes. And most of it If you try and do it with sort of the squiggles on the paper. equations this one go on the top or the bottom of the fraction or what? But if you just back off bit. And you think, Well hang on let's just do it a bit of common sense. And apply it to say driving along at steady speeds, then you can work a lot of it out for yourself. And erm you'll get should get happier with that. So let's try a few examples. Erm for you to do. When I say let's try, I mean you can try some. So if we've got let's say sixty miles an hour. A fixed speed of sixty miles an hour. And we want to travel a hundred a hundred and twenty miles. How long will that take? Two hours. That will take two hours. And suppose I go twice as fast. Right double the speed, if I drive at a hundred and twenty. Now how long w will it take me. One hour. That's only half the time it took me last time. So that's a half of two, which is one hour. Okay so here. Twice the speed. Erm what would happen if I drive at a tenth of the speed? One tenth of the speed. I drive at six miles an hour. Hey?it's the original time, which was two hours, is times it's times a tenth. No No is that right? What's going on here? If I drive at a tenth of the speed, is it gonna take me longer or is it gonna take me is it gonna be quicker? Longer. It's gonna be longer, so it can't be a tenth of it. No. Right, here we went at twice the speed, and it finished up half the time. Now we're driving a tenth of the speed, so it's going to be one over one tenth. Which is ten times. So it would take me twenty hours of I drive at six miles an hour. Yeah, Right. And that ties up When you get it like this a tenth of the speed. What we've got now is, it's directly proportional, but they've got a fraction in. So it's making it look like inverse proportion and the first thought is, Oh it l er er oh. Well it'll take a tenth of the time wouldn't it. No it takes ten times as much. half the speed, it'll take you twice as long. Erm that's thinking of a steady speed. That's a fixed speed. I'm just sort of rushing through this a bit, and I'm trying to show where the where most people get it wrong. Erm and so you can watch out for those the traps. Now if it's a fixed distance, fixed distance, let's say we're going to go, a hundred and twenty miles. Right, and we're not gonna change the distance now, we're keeping that fixed. If we drive at sixty miles an hour. Erm we've done the time there. Right. Er Right. What are we do Hang on, let's just check what we're doing with this. Fix First one we did was fixed speed, sixty miles an hour, we go double the speed, so what happens to the time? Er that should have been a fixed a fixed distance there . Fixed distance. A fixed distance er sixty miles say. Er say a fixed distance of a hundred and twenty miles. That's more like it. Okay. And it we drive it at sixty miles an hour, for two hours. Now if we keep the distance er let's see that was the fixed distance. If we keep the speed fixed now we have Do the one I should have done first. Fixed speed of sixty miles an hour. Okay. And we'll try How long would we go in how far in one hour? Sixty miles. Right. Okay. How far in erm three and a half hours? A hundred and fifty miles an That was very good. That was brilliant yeah. Yeah exactly. How did you work that out? Well it's double that hang on it's close. Mm. How far would we go in three hours? At a steady sixty miles an hour. How far would we go ? A hundred and eighty. Right. So we'll go a hundred and eighty in the first three hours. And how long would we go in the last half hour? Thirty. And we'd do another thirty miles. Yeah. Okay. So two hundred and Two hundred and ten. Two hundred and ten miles we do. Now you can do that straight off. Instead of doing it a bit at a time, we can just multiply it. And say three and a half times sixty. Just do it that way which is what you'd normally do, on your calculator, you'd just do sixty times three point five. Now that's that's a very quick look. Erm don't worry if you don't understand it all. Now hove you got the problem that you had? Yeah I've got it here. Well look through that and I wa what I want now is if you, can try and work your way through it. Without Okay. Go on. You haven't seen it yet. Well er if it's a messy one, the first thing to do with it, is to split it up into little bits. I noticed . This one. A and B are okay. I can get that. Ah. It's C and D. Right. Six swallows ate three hundred flies in five hours. Complete the following. Six swallows eat sixty flies in how many hours? Right. And how many swallows would eat six thousand flies in five hours? Right erm Okay talk about it. You said A and B were okay. How did you do A? Yeah. Well you had six eating three hundred, so yo I divided three hundred by six. And timesed it by thirty. And that gave me how many flies were gonna be eaten. Okay and why why did you divide it that way round? Cos the number of flies into swallows. Okay. So this is a bit like the speed and the distance and the time and things isn't it. All combined . Yeah. Erm so we need really equations for all of these. Cos they're like if you like. So let's have a look at it could you could you find out from the the question here, six swallows ate three hundred flies in five hours. Can you find out how many flies, one swallow would eat in one hour? Or could you find out how many flies one swallow would eat in five hours? Yeah. Yeah? How would you do that? So we've got six swallows eat three hundred flies in five hours. Okay. How many would one eat in five hours? Okay? Fifty. Right. So one swallow would eat fifty in five hours. How much would one swallow eat in one hour then? Ten. Okay so you you you've got it now, that one swallow eats one fly erm sorry eats ten flies Ten flies in one hour. In an hour. I'll write that down. Okay so write that and then we'll check it. Right. Now let's check it. Let's see if it gets back to what they said there. Six swallows erm would they How many would six swallows eat in one hour? Sixty. Okay. So we that'll just we multiply that by six. or how much six swallows would eat. And you get sixty. Right and how much would they so if they if these six swallows are eating sixty Three hundred. in one hour. Erm. That's it. Er in five hours. Right so if we're looking at what what are they they asking for here? How long will they take and how many swallows, and on this one how many flies. Right. So which which ones are proportional to what? If you've got more swallows, do more flies get eaten? Yeah. And if you've got more time, for them to eat, do more flies get eaten? Yeah. So they're both directly proportional. Okay. Now just talk about C. Now that you've worked out how many one swallow eats in one hour. Swallows. Er How many would they eat in How many would six swallows east in one hour? Sixty. Okay. It says here six swallows eat sixty flies in Six hours. how many hours? Six hours. Well we've got here, we've got one swallow eats ten flies in one hour. Okay. We have six times as many swallows, if we have six swallows. Just write down how many six swallows will eat in one hour. So just write it as six times ten or ten times six. Okay. Are you happy with that? Yeah. One of them will eat ten flies every hour, so if we got six of them it'll be ten times six. In one hour. And that comes to sixty, and the question here is six swallows eat sixty flies in how many hours? So what's the answer to that one? One hour. Just one hour. Okay. So you've done C. Yeah. Now D. How many swallows would eat six thousand flies in five hours? Well six of them eat three hundred right. If they going to get through six thousand, are you going to need more swallows or less swallows? More swallows. Okay. So have a guess at what you multiply or divide by there. Just to, not sort of working out just what what you see it it probably is. Six thousand divide by three hundred. That's it. Six thousand divided by three hundred. Erm and what about the six, that's where that comes in and starts confusing things isn't it? Yeah. So if you just did, six thousand divided by three hundred. It wouldn't tell you how many swallows, it would tell you how many lots of six swallows would east that. Then you multiply it by six. Then you have to you've got what your your answer Let let's say, we keep our swallows in cages. Right six swallows in each cage. And we sort of go and feed them three hundred flies, every five hours. And then somebody comes along and says, Oh we've got a some big order on, we're got to feed them six thousand flies, in five hours. So you first thing you says, Well how many cages are there then? One cage one cage of swallows get through three hundred in five hours, so six thousand divided by three hundred. That would be the number of cages of Cages. swallows. That Yeah. you'd need to get through the six thousand flies. And then you say, Now how many how many swallows in a cage? And you said multiply by didn't you. Yeah. Sorry that's right. Yeah, multiply by. So six thousand Yeah it's alright problem. Six thousand by divided by Three. three hundred, tells you how many cages you need. And there's six swallows in every cage, so when you get that answer, you just multiply it by six. So you want to work that one out? What that'll come to? And er just sort of work it out on here cos a lot'll cancel. We'll start from, six swallows eat three hundred. Yeah. Are you are you are you happy with this, or am I confusing you. I think I'm confusing Yeah. you actually. No I get I get the idea there. Yeah. Six thousand divide by that. Yeah I get that. Mm. That. I don't know what you mean by cancelling down though. Ah. You know I I I've cancelled down before but you know in this like. In Right. down like this. Never cancelled d I've cancelled down like equations and things . Right If you're cancelling down . You were doing erm six thousand divided by three hundred, that tells you how many cages and there's six swallows in every cage, times six. Okay. Now this was flies that the old ones ate flies the new ones ate. There's going to be eating more flies, so you need more swallows, so that looks the right way up. And we weren't thinking about how many one ate, we were thinking about how many six ate. So it'll take more of them. So we can cancel that. Divide three by a hundred. Sorry divide three hundred by a hundred. What do we get? Three. And divide this by a hundred, what do we get? Sixty. Okay and then divide that by three? One. And that by three. Three. No no. How many threes in six? Two. Okay. So it just comes to? A hundred and twenty. A hundred and twenty. Erm don't bother about that about the cancelling. Erm, no. Do it do it on your calculator, just put the figures in and do it. But then think about it when you got your answer, if it seems okay. Er this is this is the one that you get a lot. About cars doing journeys. And this is the other big one that you get about erm food. That's the other one too. Four men do a job in twelve hours. How many men would it take to do the job in two hours? Right. This sort of thing. Twelve men build a wall in eight hours. How long would it take four men to do it? So let's just talk about that without doing erm a particular example. Er Twelve men take So they're building a wall or something. Twelve men take eight hours. Okay? Erm how many men would we need if we wanted it built in four hours. Just to just to guess at it without sort of working it out. What would you say? S Twenty four men. Right. If you want it done in half the time, you've got to have twice as many people. Yeah. Yeah. Erm that's inverse proportion, that's the hard one, and I think you understand what you're doing. Yeah. Very well actually in there. Erm you'll see a lot of them like this. Four men. Try try nine. Completely on your own then. Four men do a job in twelve hours. How many to do the job in two hours? Forty eight men? Now how did you work it out? Well it takes fo four men, twelve hours to do the job. So in two hours, you've got to have twelve times as many men as you've already got. Oh. where do you get your twelve from? Here. Let's let's make it a slightly different problem. Lets' say, erm four men take twelve hours. Okay. How many men would you need to do the job in six hours? Eight men. Right. You only spend half the time, you have twice as many men. How long how many how many men would you need if you want it done in a quarter of the time? If you wanted it done in three hours? Twelve men. Twelve men. Let's let's forget about the numbers. Let's say we don't know how many men there's erm just one gang of men. So we dunno how many men in a gang. And it takes them twelve hours to do this job. And the foreman comes up and says, Oh want this job in half the time. So we need two gangs to do it. If he comes up and he says, Well we want this job done in a quarter of the time. Four times. Four times as many. He says, We want this job done in a tenth of the time. Ten times. Yeah. Ten times as many. If he says, Oh well, this isn't a rush job, we want this job to take twice as long as usual. Shorten the half the That's it. Just have half the number of men working on it and then it'll take twice as long. Okay. Now in this case, four of them will take twelve hours. Let's say four men is one gang. So forget about you know, like think of a cage of swallows. That's one gang. So one gang of men take twelve hours. What we want is only two hours. So how many gangs are we going to need. Are we going to need more men or less more gangs or less gangs? To get it done in More gangs. We're going to do more. Going to need more. So we want to do this is in a sixth of the time, right? We want it done two twelfths of the time. That's how many gangs erm that's two twelfths of the time, so it's one sixth. This is one sixth of the time. Now we want this job in one sixth of the time. That is takes on gang to do. Six more gangs. So we'll need six gangs all together. Okay? Cos that comes to one sixth. We need six gangs. One sixth of the time. So six gangs. Okay. And then you can think of I mean this is this is just sort it can be there to confuse you while you're sorting out the time. And when you're sorted it out, they want six gangs, so that's six times four. So we need twenty four men Twent on that one. there's four men in in that gang. Now going back to it. So that was four men do it in twelve hours, how many in two. Erm let's see if . Oh that's that's nasty that, because they've got six in both of them. Six women do a job in eight hours. How many women will it take to do the job in six hours? Two. Think about that one. Are you going to need more, more women or less women? More women. Gonna need more. So which way up is the fraction going to go? The first thing to do is forget about the six for a minute. Right It's not six women, it's one gang. Right one gang take eight hours. So how many gangs are you going to need, to get this job done in six hours? Well two gangs are gonna get it done in four hours. Right two gangs in four hours, so we don't need two whole gangs. Yeah. So that'd be too many. So one gang takes eight hours. How many gangs would take six hours? This is where it's the inverse proportion. It's going to take eight over six. Right? Eight over six which comes to? One and one and a bit gangs. That seems to that looks sensible it seems to . So it's eight over six gangs. And how many in a gang? Six. Six. So the number of women that we'll want, is eight over six, times six. That'll just cancel that. And we finish up with eight women. Well that's interesting, because six women do the job in eight hours, and it would take eight women to do it in six hours. So if we had something like that page . Have you ever heard of the term, man hours? Yeah. It takes so many man hours. Erm like to decorate a house well no let's say in in a factory, there's erm they've a rush order, they want to get some stuff out and they're going to need another hundred and twenty man hours. to get this job done. Now man hours, is just men times hours. And if you look at this, I mean this is actually women hours, but if you look at that. See what happened with this one that we worked out. Four men do the job in twelve hours. How many man hours do we need altogether? How many man hours does this job take? Four times twelve. That's it four times twelve. So number nine, the job takes, four men times twelve hours equals four times twelve man hours. Okay. Now if I wanted this job done in six hours, how many men would I need? Er Four men take twelve hours. I want the job done in six hours. Eight men. I'd make I'd take eight, be twice as much. Now if I said, how long would three men take to do it? It's a bit awkward isn't it. Yeah. But one way of looking at it is, Well the job takes forty eight man hours. Forty eight man hours. So how long, how many hours would three men have to work, before they'd made up forty eight man hours? Forty eight divided by three. Right. So three men times X if you like, X hours, equals forty eight man hours. And you can all of these, all of the ones where they say, so many men or women take so long to do a job, how many. You can do them all, just be looking at that. You see multiply what they give you. Right. The men times the hours. And that's fixed. That's how many man hours, that job takes. And then if they say, Well so three men would take forty eight divided by three hours. Yeah? Yeah. Okay e divided each side by three, X equals forty eight over three. Erm It takes forty eight man hours. If I said, I want this job done in two hours. How would you work it out? The job takes forty eight man hours, and I want it done in two hours. So how many men would we need? Forty eight hours. Well that's three men. Yes when when there were three men Right when there were three men, that's how many hours it took. Now a different problem, erm it still takes forty eight man hours, but this time how many men to do the job in two hours? Is it going to take more men or less men to get this job done? More men. Mm. So you can work it that way, you can think of that as a check. But the easy way, as I say, is to just concentrate on the man hours. This job, whatever it is, it takes forty eight man hours. So if you multiply the number of men, by the h number of hours they work, it's going to always come to forty eight. So if you'd like er we don't know how many men. Let's say it's X. X times two hours has got to be equal to Forty man hours. Right that's got to be And that's X men times fo times two hours equals forty eight man hours. That's man hours. Okay. Divide each side of your equation by two hours. X men is equal to forty eight man hours. Over two hours. Yeah. Right. I see that. The hours go Oh lovely. Thanks very much . Do you want that window shut? I'm fine as long it's not too noisy for you . Are you sure? If No I'm thinking of you you know erm Great fine okay. if you want to shut it anyway just get up okay . Thanks. Yeah. No I like the fresh air. Okay so the hours would cancel off there. How many twos in that? Twenty four. So you take twent twenty four men to do the job in two hours . In two hours. Now how many man hours would we use up, if we had twenty four men working for two hours? We'd have twenty four Forty eight. That's it. Twenty four times two, man hours. So any of th this is a very common problem that you get. So many men digging a ditch, building a wall, digging a hole, whatever it is. And you just, they always tell you, so many men take so long to do it. Well how many man hours. So try one completely on your own. I won't say a word this time. I ant you to do the lot. And I'll turn that over so you can't see that. Okay? Erm and I want you to tell me what you're thinking and how you're going through it and So let's see if I can find one of those. Er here we are, the first one here. Fifteen men can build a wall in six hours. Oh it's too easy this cos you can do it in your head. Erm right this is better. Four men can build a shed in nine hours. Okay? How long would it take six men? Keep going. Alright. Nine hours. Erm Four divide by nine, multiplied by six. Okay. Now that's that's just sort of coming out with the answer. I'm not saying whether it's right or wrong, but how did you get to it? Because, I want to find out how many men it'd take you to do the job in one hour. It's not that. Yes. Yeah. That's one way of looking at it. How many men would you take to do the job in one hour sort of thing is you're working out how many man hours th are there in this job. Okay, you just multiply the number of men, times the number of hours, and that gives you the man hours. And that doesn't change. That's always fixed. You always need so many man hours to do it. So wh wh how many man hours are there in that job? Four times nine. Right. Four times nine man hours to do the job. So how many hours So that comes to? Thirty six. Yeah. Thirty six man hours in this job. Okay. And how many hours would six men have to work for before they worked thirty six man hours? If six men worked for one hour, they's work six man hours wouldn't they. If they worked for if six men worked for two hours they'd work Six hours. for Right. Six hours. So if mix six men work for six hours, they'll produce thirty six man hours. Which is what we want. Okay. So the way the way of doing it. The men times the hours gives you the man hours. And then you divide that. So same problem now. Six men take nine hours to do it. Ah this is no good, I want this job done erm in four hours. How many men are you going to need? Thirty six and divide that by four Yeah. and that'd give you the number of men. Right that's it. And then what will that come to? Nine men. Yeah. The men times the hours when whenever you whenever you get your answer, you can check that your men times the hours must still still be the same as it was when you when they gave you the question. So if four men take nine hours, nine men will take four hours. Yeah. And they sometimes put it that way round. There was one in erm here where they'd done that. Erm and they did that with the women. Six women take eight hours. How many wonem women would you need to do it in six hours? Well the women times the hours, it takes six times eight women hours to do this. Man hours if you like. It's still gonna take six times eight, but this time the six is the hours so the eight will be women. And doing it on man hours is er an easy way. Erm you probably need to practise a bit. To think of it that way. So that you're not think, Oh You're first thought cos I know the way you you were working, you're thinking Oh if I just double that, half it or take a third of it or something like that. And it doesn't always work out. Sometimes if you get an easy one, fine, you could do it that way. But erm the easi easiest way of the lot is, Well, how much work does this job take? It takes either three men working at ten hours. That gives yo thirty man hours. Or ten men working for three hours, that still gives you thirty men hours. Or fifteen men working for two hours, two men working for fifteen hours. As long as the men time I mean, perhaps it would take sixty men working for half an hour. As long as it comes to the same man hours, then that's it. Cos that's how you measure jobs when you in erm When you're sort of managing projects or something or so many man hours to build this and then so many man hours to do this and then so many man hours to do that. And they always talk about man hours. Erm Do you want to try another one? This time, absolutely no no help at all. I'll just look out the window. But you t say what you're doing. Don't just go for the figures. Come sort of some of the words describe why you're doing what you're doing. Cos it'll help you to erm say what you're doing, and probably to write it down, some of it as well. Rather than just go don't forget if you write it down and you've got the right method. If you get the answer wrong, you can still get some marks. But if you don't write anything down apart from just the answer. If you just put the figures in the calculator and write it down and it's wrong or this one times that one . Erm did we do that one? Yeah. We did that one. Okay. A farmer employs twelve men So number number seven. Twelve men will take ten days, how long would five men take? Twelve men Twelve men times ten days. A hundred and twenty Man days. man days. That's it erm How long would it have taken five men? A hundred and twenty divided by the five men. That's it. So a hundred and twenty over five men. Right. Will take five days. Yeah. Sorry will take No. Yeah any Yeah will take five days. when you multiply that one by that one, it's got to come to a hundred and twenty man days again. Yeah. Cos that never changes the does it. Erm have a go at this one. Erm eight men Is this one you've done? No er well I Okay try try it this way with the man hours anyway. Erm or the man days in this case. Eight men take six days. how long would twelve Right. Go on. Good. That's excellent. You don't go on to the next bit till you've worked that one out. Erm and a lot of the time you don't need to multiply it out. It's it's better for the working if you just you know show what you're going to do there. That's it. Eight times six man days. Now even if you put that in your calculator and you get it wrong, and you get fifty or something. Then you're going to get a lot of the marks for it, because they can show Yeah. that's what you mean. So Right. So long would it take twelve men. eight six Twelve men. Okay. Now you've got your you've got your twelve Now I'm stuck here. Right okay. It's now now we've switched round differently. There we were sort of trying to find out how many men. But here we know how many men take how many days? And it's this this thing here. But it's that's how many days they took. Because how many man days will it be now? It'll be twelve men times Yeah. that many days. And the twelves'll cancel and you'll finish up with eight by six again. eight times six. I don't know they said that no names are mentioned No She takes all them tapes away and Bet's name's not put on there. No one 's names are on there No one 's names are on there. She's got to write down What She's got to write down Mm. Have I got to fill all this out now? Bet's got to fill out who she's talking to and what they are to her You're her mother Grandmother. When you're sixty oh Rose had it She got a shock She got to put down every day look there's a sample for a week For a week. Look there's a sample look. She's got to put the She'll have to bring it over her coffee in the morning. The person's age male or female. And what else is it? Oh what action they are and what what's that? Oh relation they are stranger or colleague. Have you been swearing Rose? No I haven't said a word. Oh she's all right then? No. Colleague. That's colleague like we're friends. Friends and neighbours? Yeah. Friends and neighbours. Yeah. I thought she'd be on that one five minutes I'll see what Well that's where what it is. She's got to put on she's got to put you're a granny or If I'd done that if I'd done that be worse you don't use bad language but he'd be he's he'd be He'd do it all the more would he? He's he's well He'd do it all the more. Be serious he can't be serious. No. But I didn't let although there won't be nothing on there so it don't matter do it? No. Because we're very quiet when we're on our own Oh ah! Oh I bet they're not! Oh it's all right. They have fun. language with the I should be I should bloody go very carefully This morning Betty Oh! coffee Oh we'll have a bleeding laugh at that. Don't say nothing before Joe comes in, don't say nothing. Do you know what you got on there now? Yeah. We've got to be silent We've got her doing I'd be wishing I'll Christmas birthday coming How long does that tape last? five minutes Oh have you got to change the tape then or? I'll just turn it over. Turn it off then. Oh yes. You can hear yourself now but where Oh dear This man charges women three hundred pounds to have sex. That all? That all? Three hundred pounds. Well he's already the front. All of his six feet six foot three of smouldering sexuality he's probably the best looking man you have ever seen with a bo body he looks every inch the top model he once was . He ain't no different to my old man is he Bet? Not any different. Well none of them are are they? Hanging a bit looser a bit more than all the others, like boobs innit for two years. In that time he had performed group sex with his millionaire businessmen, turned on sex starved women who have never had an orgasm affection and satisfaction from hundreds of clients You can get more from eating a bar of bleeding chocolate. Was there that went on our phone. Was there? Yeah we had the toy shop ringing, said you been ringing? She said yeah all day she said we was ringing. I said well we're very rarely at home. Ooh! I said special round Christmas shopping. Oh! Yeah and they have them there see and like after so long they come out and sell them. Aye sell I mean they could have rung yesterday that's the trouble you see they've got so many friends Good girl you fairly worked that bleeding money. Yeah. What twenty quid? Yeah. Oh bloody fair aren't you?she'd might never have known whose giving fair. Is it getting on your nerves ? Well it is a bit long, Betty. Got bloody cock eyes. Let's see? Does it look nice? Yeah but needs snipping Shall I snip it then? It would get on my nerves. I couldn't stand that. Can't see the would be Shall I snip it? Yeah if you like. Not too short. Oh not too short. What time You only have to take a little bit off ain't enough to go under your nose. might go on a bit Shut me gob. It's quite warm out this afternoon. That's better. That's better. Excuse me? I'd better get my I know. It's very nice. Sorry mate. Is that better Edna? Yes that's better. A lot better. You want to see her in the morning when she bloody get up. Oh yes wonderful. Try and get her bloody That nice? Yes beautiful. Don't bloody keep on. I said it once. she got trouble. Behave! She is then Julie isn't she? No. You know that. You have to remind her. You did didn't you? just a joke. Yeah. You bloody find out. Mine cost bloody . Bernard Manning was on there you know. Yes he's alive. Yeah he's alive and his mother was there and she's ninety odd. Yeah. Cos she's bloody Jewish ain't she? Eamon Andrews yeah. She said you're seeing Eamon Andrews He's dead isn't he? He's dead. They'll all be dead by . Women are twelve times more likely than men to get AIDS from straight sex by Oh God! An infected woman will die sooner than men because doctors mistake symptoms for less serious illnesses . Oh! it claims that women are at risk because men are more likely to spread the virus. A third of the infected women get AIDS through through sex with men but only about three per cent of infected Are we ? from women . And they don't have to It's bloody men isn't it? Bloody things. Yeah. Bloody men. Yeah. They said it comes from apes. Apes? What AIDS? That's what Keith said And then they stopped it and it got spread about and then blah blah blah and then it came well it spread all through Europe and Oh well No wonder he had three bloody blood tests the other day then. He said the first the second was Us women are not to blame for this AIDS Dirty filthy it's the men. Oh! I didn't say that. You can't blame all this on to the men. What about Elton John? What do you think about Elton John on the paper there? He just looks bloody awful. Awful. What? I love you forever he put on the Freddy Mercury tape We haven't seen him for years the bloody queer. That Kenny Everett said he'd go to the funeral. He said he's dead so we might as well remember him . I think it's because he got it he didn't want people to see him. That's all. got it. the girls? Do you like the look the girls? It must of It's really nice of the girls. I don't owe you nothing now. No We're square? You have to tell me what you want in the morning. Oh yes! Because you'll be gone to coffee by the time I get back I suspect. Where you going up ? Yeah. You be gone to coffee by the time I get back. I want definitely shampoo please. Yeah. Head and Shoulders? Do you want Head and Shoulders Julie or do you want erm Head and Shoulders. dandruff Do you want anything else? I've got soap, I've got polish. They've got all different soaps down there or just er Yeah I know erm You've got spray haven't you? I want bread and no I haven't got any So do you want me to get you one? Yes if you can manage yes. Anything else? The soccer player got sent off for kissing his opponent on his head. Stupid. He was saying to him he said stop bloody play acting get up and he just give him a kiss on the head Ooh! and the referee sent him off I hate that in men! You got enough powder? Yeah. Cleaning powder? Did you want any washing powder? You know I never thought of asking you if you want that. I just used the last. I got loads here. No I just used the last now. I'm all right for now because I've got no more washing. Well no The next time. Thank you. I've just used the last now which has been good. I wish someone would spread the news around. Oh I wish I had a washing machine they finished with I could have it. Anybody got a second hand washing machine? Spread the news. Yeah yeah. Right I'm going. Okay my love. See you some time tomorrow. I might be back in time to see you before coffee if not I'll see you You won't you won't be back by then? No. See you when you come back from Kingsworth. Not going for drinkies tomorrow? I don't think so. No. I better go I've gotta go to work. Goodbye! Goodbye Wens. What time do you have to go to work? Half past four. Tea Edna. Half past four? Yeah. cup of tea Oh right Ed. I've already made the reservations. Could you be here by say ? I was wondering if I could take it tonight? Oh er yes. Are you sure you don't mind? You mean the people who made that what's it called? Syndicate. Syndicate twenty of them. Enjoying football for twenty years? And they never won nothing and they were made redundant last week and one of the chaps he did it on his own this week and won three hundred thousand. What on his own? On his own. And when he marries he says he's going to buy a house a car and he's going on a holiday. You got the Mirror haven't you? It's in the Mirror. Oh I dunno about that. Well I don't know. They've all been made redundant. Yeah. Oh yeah . Yeah I got the coat on this morning I said I said hopefully Yeah. coaches up there. I said They had a hundred pounds for Christmas day for Christmas bits. five hundred. By the time I get I get kids something each I never have a lot left I was only saying that with one thing and another and and I said there she is worrying about her Caroline worrying about she's going to manage. I said I mean all right I mean everybody's in the same bus. . Now if that was me see I'd very often . She don't get parking allowance? No. You can walk. You can walk. There's a bus park. And I said to her well every time I goes over I either takes children a few groceries. I don't tell her or she'll take on the mantleshelf. But it ain't much but it's I mean I said to our I don't know how she manages on that Nor do I. One small girl and she doesn't go to school. I must say I honestly do n't. I don't either. Because it's a struggle. Yeah I know our Lorraine has took the phone over. I know she done that. But I don't know I said to her I know how to bloody manage. girls they go shopping like but they always got another carrier didn't they until they got sold and then when er they're on the next road from their house like take the carrier and it's all for her. Every never nothing else. Every week. Did they? Yes every week. Never miss. And then she goes mad she says I don't want them to and I said look Nance if they didn't want to do it they and I said don't forget what you've done for them. Although you want to I know I know. weaken the belly bit now I said I said. She don't like it. There's no hope for her. She needs to get help doesn't she? Well she ought they could I mean I want her to do that. Well it's time isn't it? Oh! Did you unload your No Oh that Nanette phoned in and some of the country said what do you think of this thing he said. He said I pays my poll tax he says and I am paying out of my savings he said now what the heck will I do when my bloody savings is gone. That's right. That's was on there. Was it on? And he said like Five hundred odd pounds. Yeah. And he said what the heck will I do now when my savings is gone? Well. Shall I send off for that? What's that? Film extras required in all areas only eight it won't raise a bleeding cameras. Well! We're not really bloody cameras. So what do I do? Stand there near the video shop? Film extra? Yeah they advertise She's in Casualty I've got a lot of time. Yeah you have got a lot of time. I should just go for half an hour Will they pay you to be a film extra? Du n no. Hello Maggie Hello love Hello! Hello my love we've just been talking about you. How's your Mum? Oh not so bad. Oh good. Oh wonderful. Oh she does look well. There's a chair my love. Oh good. Seventeen ? Yeah. Oh brilliant. They think she burst one of her ulcers? No one of her tubes. Oh strange! Yeah I know also she's got a complaint as well. together a combination or something or the other. Oh no! But they haven't Oh that's good Oh that's lovely. She's back today. Is she? Oh well. Mm. breast Christmas Eve. Oh! Yes. My mother. She can't be all that well. She's on the mend. Oh good! She told me off. That's good! Oh dear! said I was getting better she's telling off. Oh. She got her bag out and she said give me my bag. She said I said Mum Christmas is a month away. Yeah did she get up? She said there's the money. You will go and get those Christmas presents for me. Tomorrow all right? Now take it. Yeah but get it. Oh! Are you working Tuesday night? No. You're not working? You've got the money if you want to buy Christmas presents this year. Why? Because I can go down with you and get them sent off Oh can you? Yes. Oh all right then Great. You can come with me. Okay lovely smashing very nice He said he said I got me . So I said what's in it for. He said for the money we spent here you could have had a percentage off. I said because you had a different coat on today didn't you? For every ten pounds you spend you get three bucks. You got your stuff now haven't you? Oh yeah. I told you to hang on. I don't think there's going to be a lot left there. There's only I'll have no bloody money left by then. So anyway I then looked at . I'll get a bloody telling off me again. No. I've got a card for her there. Oh that's lovely. She got er she's off her drip now. Is she allowed to eat anything? She hasn't said anything about that. I think she sort of she she she didn't say she said she's not allowed er she's not allowed to have chicken and cucumber. Isn't she? Not chicken? She has to watch what she eats. Ooh! I see. Oh! Look at that. Isn't that cute? Yeah. Oh that's lovely. Where did you get that one from? Kingsworth. Kingsworth. Isn't that lovely? You're kind. Oh! A bit bigger than that. The things I've seen are lovely. I'm going to get a little cushion to put on my you know. He likes it? He loves it there He must be nice and warm under there. It is it's the warmth and as he looks at the bush out of the front door I'm sure he laughs. cos every time I goes out there he's sat and he's sat and he's sat as much to say hello He did? Yeah. Yeah yeah. It's a bit bloody wet now isn't it? It's getting damp now. I went out and saw it a minute ago and I thought I'd bring it in and I thought I hadn't seen you for a couple of days. No I said I hadn't seen you. Have you heard how your mother is? Yes Oh! I thought I'd better come round today in a bit more positive mood. Cos she said what's wrong with her as well so that makes you feel better And that makes you feel easier Yeah yeah. And not only that when you're getting on a like like No. The lady who nursed her and she said I can't see you and why not she said and she said because you under sixty five. Oh. Ooh! When she told her age she was cross. If I was her I would have said that was a bloody compliment if ever there was I said in the morning when she gets up have a look at her When did you know? Yeah supposed to have a perm today yeah. And why aren't you now? Because I forgot all about it. It looks nice that way Well it is. It's all right for going out. You might as well have it set. It looks nice. Does it now? Now doesn't look no different does she? I can't understand that. I know but I want a curl But you don't want it. It looks nice like that. Don't know why you bother. I must say I like your natural colour best. With me now I reckon if you dye it you'll spoil it. Oh my goodness. Is she having her hair done? I haven't seen her have I this week. She might came in in a minute . her stuff It's a good job she's not here. she's bloody obvious she is. Oh ah she's terrible I got those buttons did you this morning? I never I got there as far as there. store. What chocolate buttons? and they're eating chocolate and they haven't got no buttons. Gets nasty and all. Oh lord. There's Christmas things you got are ninety nine at Asda section things Section things they're ninety nine in Asda. Are they? Yes. I seen them this morning so tell Mr God to lower the price of them things. what do you call them? Ninety nine. They weren't ninety nines surely? Yeah they were ninety nines. Where? On the on the things. Have you still got your list? I've brung it up I don't know whether I got that What? What ? I brung it up I because Those selection boxes Milk bars. I have the milk bars and the little box of chocolates They're not ninety nine P. So what's ninety nine then? Seventy eight What was the ninety nine then? Well Well I'm sorry. This is to date. Yeah. You've got selection boxes you're little ones. Yeah. They're seventy eight. Seventy eight? What is ninety nine then?if I done it wrong. I'll have to work it out. Ninety nine. Seventy eight. Balderdash! The fact is Yeah. That's it the two of us Oh ninety nine pence each. They're not yeah yeah but because pound down to get it even er that's it. Sorry Dave you're you're I'm playing up now yeah You get me one of those big selection boxes? You plan on I want one for Joe and I want one for I've seen some at Kingsworth what Morris' done joint ones and they they haven't got half as much as what the one has got in it. Oh well. They got about six or seven bars of chocolate as the one the joint ones they got loads of them Don't forget now. don't you? They've got those I can't be bothered this place where they got a boat. My daughter's got it?in March. Thirteen thirty nine pounds something. Oh well don't know you. Michelle going. It's the name of the house actually. It's down Devon way ? Yeah it is. Is it? Where our kids went? No. Something big house big house I don't know Where did the children go Dave Summer House? I don't know. Summer House. Yes Summer House. That's it it is. Mum? No. Round there. It's something funny I said our kids went there. She said it It was something to do with that school Oh what was it called? And I said to Michelle she normally don't you know? You got them kids some of the kids I don't wonder No not even. Evening no it was somewhat that that horrid word like that's so bloody funny. Yeah. Was the kids I've never seen so many bloody kids. Did you see ? Yeah bleeding right and I don't think they were because the school It was getting on everyone's nerves out there. They was younger than your Mandy. Yeah. And they was bloody Running the bloody trolley over my foot. They are terrible in there. there was one kind with bloody chocolate offer they was started eating it. . I said to her you might as well let me eat it now. Yeah. That's the trouble they just run see. They just go around and do their shopping and ignore What's her name? She over on What's that girl? Yeah. She's over there because she used to be on the erm Where's that kid gone? on that film the other morning The manager suspended her Anyway she got her job back since the manager's gone but she, she was a right Is there any any seconds? Do you mind if I do my potatoes now? No I'm going home now. Any seconds thirds? Is er everything all right? Yoo hoo There's Michelle just come in the door. Ah right. here. Here you are. It's all clean again you know. Yeah How's your Mum? Better thanks. I don't know. I could have been worse. I was all nasty. What you doing? It's got to be done. I've got the kids sausages and chips in Have you? Yeah Oven chips? I can't stand that What chips? dry dry isn't it? Dry. Ah. Just depends what make they are mind you Well they're more dry them oven chips. Well they said what you having for tea and I said well we'll have to have you can have a few beans or something Oh ah wet then. Eh? You'll have to have chips the door. Yeah what can you Jill! Yeah. That one's horrible Jill! Yeah. Jill! Jill! What? What? What you're going to give them? Eh? What you going to give them? No. Mind your business Bye I haven't got a clue. I'll see you sometime tomorrow. Okay. I've got to get up early all right? All right my love. Ta ta David. Cheerio What oh yes you've got to go out with them films to Kingsworth. Okay my love. Bye. Right I suppose I'll go round Bye now. All right that'll do for now. I could come home from work have some dinner and change and go straight out to the hospital part of all this week. Oh it's all go isn't it? Ow! The nurse come in and and I said Oh is she? What's the matter with her? So she said should we go down now Oh. She never answered. Oh yeah? tonight. Because we are having a big do er champagne party and all Oh lovely. So I said well I'd like to go but Barbara's going at five o'clock to get down and get a tea that's too early. Five o'clock? Yeah. Oh well that's your Even if we left here at six we wouldn't get a table. No No It would be too late so she said I really want to go because we went out last night you know Yeah. So I said to her she said would you like to go to the Regal so I said I don't mind. I said you had better and go and ask Keith first. So he said he didn't care where he went so as much as to say so I thought right then we'll go to the Regal tonight. I don't know what I'm going what I'm going to do on Thursday. Well there's nothing stopping you is there? Oh no. He hasn't got to bath the kids and put them to bed. I know but then it's the money isn't it? I think I should be making the tea or I'll fall asleep in the bloody chair You got to go this Sunday? No they asked me if I wanted to and I said no. I don't want to work on Sunday. They were on the till when I was up there this morning and I said you are you were working there Yes there's plenty up there to grab the overtime. I don't bloody want it. Did you see the Tesco group that were on there last night? Yeah yeah. Were you there? Yeah I did. they do six days a week. That is their contract. Anyway the other morning in the office they said they had to do seven days a week but no extra pay. Ah! And do you know what? On the Sunday what they have to do? You know where they makes the bread? Yeah. Well you know the big things and this girl was And he said we have got to get on top of there and clean all the ovens. She said and they're about seven foot high she said didn't she Bet? Aye they're bloody mad they are. They get some man to do it at the moment. And he said to her didn't he take it to the tri erm Yeah go to the Citizens Advice. Go to the Citizen's advice and she said we haven't got a union they don't belong. But I said it might be contractors . If it is contractors they're happy doing anything. No there's Asda cleaners the ladies but the men Tesco. At Tesco's sorry but the man, men they get in to clean the tops of the ovens are contractors Yeah. But they do it though and they expect the cleaners to do it for no extra pay? Yeah they have to go and top the bloody ovens. I haven't even got the ladders And no extra pay? They're top shelf up in that warehouse and they're ten twelve foot up. Ah! One of the girls come off the ladder on Saturday. You don't want to get up there either. Come straight down on to the concrete floor. I didn't see her at first. She was surrounded in bloody boxes. Just spotted her foot. She was out bloody cold when I got there. Ooh! I had to get an ambulance to her. I don't what happened. top of things. I Didn't they Yeah Richard. Oh Richard. Hundred of thousands pounds worth of stuff. Ooh! But they took er three hundred erm CD cases didn't they? When there were CD's in them. Oh well bad luck that. Yeah. What about that Oh was that when there was Yeah. and you know that shop I told you about when I seen that? Well that was dead opposite there. Did they for it? No. That policeman was lucky wasn't it wasn't he? Yeah. But that was a London van. What Still they're striking Well yeah still they haven't got their money have erm ? No no. They got it. That's it. I mean if I can buy a bloody bargain I'll buy it. right left and centre of the shop floor in front of everyone they are getting stuff out. They aren't? They are. Well I can't see why they're not because all right I mean I don't see how they do it. They do it. But I mean have they got erm they've erm got cameras in have they? Have they? Well they got cameras in there see. Ah but you won't see em. But they're there. Eh. Because it's so easy done isn't it? Yeah. Crikey there's one up there. She got away with bloody three or four CD's last week. Cor! Portable ones. I'd be scared bloody stiff. on the bloody shoulder. she very Course they must be used to it doing it mustn't they? They've all got to keep an eye out for her and try catch her at it but She's too bloody clever. They all know who it is then do they? Yeah. Stupid person But these that do it they must be bloody experienced at it they could do it so quick as they was doing it. If you and I were doing it you you'd think about a lot She's very experienced all right. She does what she You wouldn't just think about it it's just gone isn't it? Yeah. You got to be quick. I couldn't do it. No way. I wouldn't dare. I'd be on And they'd know straight away. and even on the . pinched in one of them in that Asda. But I can't see how they can Yeah they do. because so easy unless they search their bags when they're going out. I mean I don't know. You see they've got to be seen taking it out Yeah outside the door. Yeah that's right. Get them outside. Outside the door yeah that's right. Stop em and have the stuff on them. And of course they've gone isn't them? It's not as easy as it sounds. God I were in the market and I thought I'd better take a bit more wrapping paper and I and I had it I said that's ten and of course I get on the and I didn't know No because they're tied together and all well I never. I said well I'll buy the two leave them there I said but it's done so simple. That's it. Simple that is. That's it yes. It's like our Pam. Our Pam at Tesco didn't she she was telling us didn't she? Last Fri last Wednesday and she got the trolley like and when she pulled the trolley a woman's handbag was on the trolley and on the you know what was it? Mm So she took the handbag back into Tesco and said I found this handbag erm and they said well give me your name and address and all that so in any rate what happened Bet? Who's it phoned? Somebody phoned. Oh as they come out to Asda they said they found her bag and they give her our Pam's phone number and rung up and thanked our she said there's full of stuff money and all in there and thanked her for what she'd done and our Pam said fair enough I would you know Hello. Hello Sal. And anyway yesterday morning she said oh she said I'm in luck today so I said what's the matter then and she said. She said I had a letter this morning Mm and I said yeah she said that lady sent her a ten pound note. Oh ain't that lovely? Yes nice. Isn't that nice? Yeah that's nice. Yeah that was nice wasn't it? Yeah. Yeah well Anyway I said to our Pam well you have been brought up to do things like that and not only that if I found a pound on the floor I'd pick it up that's different. Yeah of course that's different. But not for that. Anyway she sent her a tenner so she's going to have her hair permed I mean you get these trolleys now. People take them back. You have to get them pounds out to get the trolleys. Yeah yeah. Oh the man takes them all back now over down the . Does he? Yeah. He gets about fifty pounds doesn't he? Do he? Yeah. Good luck too. Yeah because Because he's going to give it to the manager They don't charge for the trolleys up there now do they? No not up there no but down Gateways don't do they don't take their pounds out. They forget see. The nice man does it. Good luck to him. Oh ah yes. They forget see. Cherry stopped him and said what you doing she said George this old man he's said I'm going to give this to the manager like he said because I've been brought all these trolleys back. She said put it in your pocket. She said that's your perk that's one of the perks of your job. You're out there in the cold Yeah Well Bet it's like getting used to it isn't it? Where do they where do they take the pound? To the till desk. No they're all clipped together Yeah? And to get them unclipped you got to push a pound coin in one way and the clip comes out the back And it comes out the other yes. So when you take your trolley back and clip it back up the pound comes out the front again. Oh dear! I never knew that. People are still getting used to it aren't they? Or dump the trolley. They forget they got a pound in there. Oh that's isn't it? Oh yeah. Yeah I mean but if you take that to the manager. What do you think the manager's going to do with it? He'll put it in his pocket. He'll put it in his bloody pocket wouldn't he? Course he would. Course he would. in the till. poor old chap have it that's why. That's what she said and she said minding me own business and this she said and this man come up to her and he said have you got And she said pardon got any and so she said what? And he said you know condoms and he said for tonight and she said well she said I never felt so embarrassed she said I didn't know where to put myself she said and the girl that was with her the other demonstrator So she give him a and she said Oh free night tonight. and she said oh I didn't know what to do. Which one should I use the blue or the pink? He's a miserable manager at the I mean she can't stand him that's in the bar. Oh she said he's most horrible and he's always gorging he's always eating something like you know. She says and we can't get a bloody sweet she says. Oh no you can't. But that girl that was sacked for pinching what was it? A plum wasn't it? It was a plum. She had a bite out of a plum didn't she? Something like that sacked her. Not up here. I've been stopped loads of times and had my bag searched Have you? Yeah loads of times. You must look suspicious like our Jeannie used to look. Yeah they always stopped by I mean they done that in our factory they stopped on Saturday morning. They had three on on door I mean three security men but it's not worth it mind. And on a Saturday with Jenny going in if there's any overtime you and old what's-a-name was there and he came and tapped me on the shoulder. I did at one time I know I never I don't I never touch a thing there and I thought and he would you mind opening your carrier and I've got sanitary towels in there Oh God no. and I said and I was hesitating and I said I'm sorry I said I feel a bit embarrassed he said for what reason and old Rose was with me well at door she said she knows me she said well she said if it will interest you what if I never. I did have to open it. Yeah you do and all they do is just move a couple of things about. Yeah. Off you go Yeah. You know what I was like when it was all heavy. Yeah. Mm. Mm. Bristol Mecca they had a bloody bomb scare and we had to tip out and they had all these great pads you know and I had all these maternity pads because I needed them you know I had to pad up and I had to and I felt so embarrassed I know some of these security men are worse than the bloody people who goes in and out there you know. They knows the layout don't they? Course they do. That's it. It's easier It's stupid I could do it if I had the face and I had the guts I could do it. I don't no way I could I know about there if I really want to but no way I could do it. Caroline went out there at Christmas and look at what she had. Mm. And she went back and back again till she got caught. Mm. Oh she got caught? Hundreds of pounds You see people that think they got cameras out there they can't see I didn't know But they are there they've even got them in the warehouse Have they? Because he likes to see what's going on all the time. Yeah Well my sister over there was two women. For years they went on and on and on and everything they took and that was from eight o'clock in the morning was either from Marks and Spencers or British Home Stores. Yeah good stuff yeah. And our had loads and loads of stuff and because it's it was red hot so she could fold it up and say Yeah that's it. Yeah it was red hot they had beautiful clothes and they've gone on for years like that. They had taxi in taxi out. Anyway they got they got in the end and they He run the corner shop isn't he ? He goes up every year and nicks what he wants for Christmas for the kids. And they'd wear different wigs every day. Yeah Different wigs. For a couple of years on the run they've lost their dole cheque round about Christmas. Oh yes they always lose their dole cheque very conveniently at Christmas. Eh? And they got to go down and get another one. Yeah they do that same stroke every bloody Christmas that Christmas There's no way. I just couldn't. No I couldn't my money all the time. I had the a couple of musical teddy bears put by. I don't know whether you've seen them. They're about this big and you squeeze its little paw and it plays a Christmas tune Oh yeah. And I said to Chris I'll have two of them. One brown one one white one one each of the bears then. And erm she said all right and I said what do I do with them and she said I'll put them down in the base at the back and I said all right so I went back on the shop floor just before I was coming out come out. I went darling to one of the girls and she said yeah I said will you come with me and she said what's the matter? I said I want to get my teddy bears out of the back. She said go now to the electrical desk and you can pay for them when no I don't want to do that and I made her come out with me and see I picked up those teddies in the bags and I went back in and put them by the electrical desk Yes I see yes I said that's how you got to do it and then I come round and pick them up when I mean when you think of those She said oh what a fuss. I said yeah but at least I know There's no way I've touched anything else out of the cupboard you know? And yet the stores is covered for any erm one who pinches and that. But then erm they haven't got the guts to things. I mean if I What do you want? Although I wouldn't I wouldn't If my kids was over here I'd have to flog something Oh I know I couldn't steal I couldn't steal I'd have to flog something Now don't start because I'm going out. I'm not. You are. Now David that's quite enough be a good boy Well don't worry about it Bet it'll be all right. It's wonderful. I don't know whether I'm coming or going. I'm hungry. I thought you were on nights this week? Oh I am. Doing two to ten Friday. That's tomorrow. Yeah. Why you doing two to ten tomorrow? Because she said she don't want to come in on nights. She asked everybody and she said will you come in on two to ten. Mm. They bounced up their little list Oh Maggie! We can depend on you to come in on Sunday can't we? No. Oh aye yeah no. No. She said it's double time. Aye erm yeah. I said couldn't care less if it's triple time I'm not coming in on a Sunday. I said I see enough of this place all bleeding week I'm not coming in on a Sunday. Oh dear! He'd go bleeding mad Well I mean er One day I have a lie in I mean I know I don't lay in there no more than eight No but you know you don't have to worry about getting up have you? Well I said I sort of trundle down the stairs and have me breakfast Well that's it that's it. I said no bloody way am I working on a Sunday. I said these daft buggers that come in and do it it's up to them. I don't know I don't know. I suppose if people wants to go to the shopping centres they . I wouldn't go to the shops on Sunday. No I wouldn't. I wouldn't go on a Sunday. I mean there's seven days in the week isn't there? I mean I mean how can people afford to do it Bet? I mean . I mean to my mind if they're opening on a Sunday they should bring their prices down because they're opening that extra day they're going to be taking extra revenue. Yeah of course they are. So they should be made to bring their prices down. That is why they put that freeze on That is why that man said you will not get any more special offers on a Fri Saturday night because they can't sell it on a Sunday so you used to see them selling things off on a Saturday five o'clock. No more. Because they're opening on a Sunday and hoping that you'll go in That's it. Mm and buy. So you won't be able to find out nothing You won't forget that. And I reckon they'll carry on down to Christmas. Well they reckon that the British Standard people are going to have It's got to be tumbledried it's going to be a dry day get it out early and get it dry tomorrow. Mm What way do you think Clayton will come then? What way? Yeah. I was going to lock the back door make sure that down Why? Because because she keeps on coming in. to pay your money Yeah. Get a washing machine on the firm? She said if you pay up which isn't very much erm there's something in Littlewoods and she's got money in her pocket and she's got a washing machine. That's great. will be paying her nowhere near as much. That will be fine great brilliant. That's what she said. She said it's none of my business She wants washing machine Because if I can I'd rather get it off her than get it out of our club because then I can get some Christmas presents out of their lot. Yeah. Do you or you can say to her is I don't know where it's gone or it doesn't work. out of her catalogue. Yeah. Well they just went back and said they couldn't want something that much maybe she's gone over her limit. Yeah. That's right. gone over her limit and I'm not interested in her amount. oh you turned it off. No I haven't. You have. No I haven't. The grill's gone out I haven't touched it. The grill's gone out. I haven't touched it love it's on full now. Yeah. It's on full and it's gone out. Oh don't tell me fucking grill's packed up. Oh no! I don't believe it! It's gone out. It doesn't need to go out because I took that out. This isn't right. Yeah. One two three four five. Yeah. That's the grill. I don't know. I can feel heat but I don't know what it is? The power is there cos you can hear it can't you? Mm. Try the top oven shall we? Strange isn't it? I wonder what it is then. I don't know. Something to do with that bottom light the bloody payment was due yesterday or today whatever's the twenty sixth. No there's nothing happening. I can feel loads of heat but there's nothing happening Stupid. Usually on the there five minutes, it's on all day isn't it? It's come back on again. Oh great It just went off. That's strange. Don't know what it was. Never known it to go off before. No I've never known it to go off before either. Stupid. I wouldn't worry about it anyway we're Oh it's the football pools. I don't think we've done it. Billy! Yeah. You doing the football or not? No Yes. Here you are. all you'd have had to get is all you'll have had to get is an element. That's the thing that so easy with electric cookers is that you just have to buy the element. So with that if one of them goes you just have to buy that as an element just slot it it comes it's like a light bulb. Oh I see take it out and Slots slots out and you slot another one in. Oh I see. It's a lot easier with gas. Our mum's several times her rings has gone on her cooker she's had to buy a new element and she's switched to gas. And you've switched over to electric. I'd rather have when it comes to safety Gas cookers are When it comes to safety when it comes to safety I would rather have an electric cooker. But gas cooking is nice. It tastes different. It's nice. But I suppose you've like on I suppose you've got used to it. Yeah. Now you've got used to it. I mean you know how to cook with it now. I didn't have this one when you come here did I? No Or did I? You had the old bleeding white gas cooker the dangerous one. It used to get Yeah that's right . they said sorry I not going to let anyone use this. Because we didn't know how long we've had it. Oh. Was it the council found it dangerous? Yeah the gas man weren't it? Yeah. He said it's dangerous. Yeah he said I should get my husband to divorce it and chuck it You've had this what about two years now? It's got to be. Mm. She was saying four years four years and I said I've not had it four years I should say about two years. Because you had the old white one when I came here. And it was just over four years ago that I came here. That's right. Four years and two months ago or a few months but the gas man sort of found it dangerous. he got it taken out to the back garden isn't it? Didn't you have or something? I can't remember whether Dangerous wasn't it? Yeah. It really was dangerous. I remember this one being delivered. Yeah. And you said ooh I not going to get used to this. Yeah Isn't it crazy? It comes to you so easily you know. I still don't know don't know which is the top grill the oven the top oven the bottom oven. you don't ever use the programmer so No. But I would if I ever got a job and I was working and I had to make a casserole or something. But you could do that for Christmas Yeah. having me Coke and me chocolates. I would like setting the clock because erm How many what hour is it now? Fifteen hundred? No? No. Five hundred? Five hundred hours? Ah ah ah! The M on there see? Mm. Oh that grill Oh Christ! Shut up! Bloody beep beep beep. What should we do put Clayton's corned beef on a plate and just put his cheese and potato pie on a on another plate? Yes? Why? I don't know why. He won't be in for another oh God knows . And his corned beef isn't gonna look very nice on his cheese and potato pie is it? warmed up isn't it? the saucers seem different. Put the kettle on and use the cups. Just put the kettle on then and use the teapot. Hot water in there. Got none just as soon put the bloody thing on simple. She's got a dining room and utility room now. Has she? Mm. Very posh. Oh isn't that nice? And the nextdoor neighbours complain. They complained to the council saying they haven't got planning permission. Really? And they did have planning permission. Ah ha ha ha. That's a shot in their arse then. Their argument. And she said she said I am not having you putting down the value of my house and having yours higher than mine the value of my house. She said I was here first. Stupid. I'm soft or what? Crazy! Oh isn't that nice that . Terry called her crusty. He was shouting out crusty!. Oh. Oh my God like crusty. I told him ssh shut up. Has she always been like that or is this? I don't know. She used to buy them Christmas presents and Christmas cards. Oh dear! Not any more. No. Jealous isn't she? She puts the Christmas card through this door that's it ripped up and put through her door. Jealous isn't she? Is that done now Jill? Yeah. You'll have cut that bit . Mind your hands mother That's gravy now Sally with us. Sally! Hurry up your mother wants to By the way your tea's ready. What? Sally your tea's ready. Either come down here and have it now or I'll eat it. She's been out now for twenty minutes Nor I. Oh well Bet, that's a lot of cheese in that potato pie. Mm. Because the potato pie's all soggy. Yes Well that's nice Julie Yoo hoo. I'm here. your tea's ready Here you are Don't read eat your tea I've only been here four years we had the white one remember the gas one got certified dangerous? Yeah. Yeah. Didn't know you had it for four years. Well it was really weird right. We had the grill on and it was still on and it went off turned it off turned back on again didn't go on. Turned the top oven on nothing happened. Funny. Yeah I'm listening can you while you're talking? No! Well my tea is getting cold. What's it you want? I want lemon. Well in the way. Silly child! You are. You are You. Go back into bed Sal? Nothing wrong with me. There's been nothing wrong with me all day is there Bet? No. It's been ever since she wake up. David! Coming. He likes me. she asked him yesterday I thought she was lovely. I quite agree with her she said. Oh she . Who? Rita. That Rita. Rita. Rita. I was calling her Nan Wendy was calling her my love was calling her Gran and she loved it. Yeah called her Gran and was calling her Mum. And I was calling her Mrs . Who? Mrs . She likes you though. Not half. Send her a Christmas card. You sent her one last year and the year before isn't it? Oh. Oh shit I mustn't swear tonight. No not allowed to swear tonight. Definitely not allowed to swear tonight so don't do it. No. If you're not Excuse me. I should damn well think so too. not allowed to swear. You doing one more? No don't you're on tape. Oh don't do that . What for?bloody survey I've worked on. There ain't a tape in there. There is. There ain't. There's a tape There is not a tape in there. Excuse me excuse me. You've seen it did you? What's it hiding behind there for? So you wouldn't see it. So you wouldn't see it and it's running and there's a mike there. What did you put that in there for? Eh? Stupid So everybody's natural. Obviously people come in and don't know it's there and Well they put that all on tape now? Yeah. Don't worry about it. Forty five minutes each side it runs. I don't know how many tapes. I'm just going to next Friday. And I've just got a twenty five pound voucher for Marks and Spencer. Ah I knew there was a catch. Well that's something. I need some . Well you've got all that on tape now? Yeah I don't care. It's the truth. is it? Yes I know I don't She listens to herself. she's frightened to death. Father's, Ju this bread isn't very nice is it? Oh she missed the programmes Have you got no shop card Sally? It's up there . not a good enough job so she's finishing it off Oh I It's half past eight we'd better chase it up. myself. Into Neighbours again? bank . I'm not allowed to touch it. Why? Because someone in America is vegetarian. Yeah? And when that girl becomes vegetarian mix about and the other one she's vegetarian still and she said she's not coming back in this house. She said it's nonsense. It's good for them though. Yeah but what they've what they've done but what one wants to do is not is not bad for them one little bit. It's good for them. That's like what's her name down the down there. She's vegetarian three months ago er three years ago. But they worked out in three years she's put on seven stone because she eats . She eats loads and loads and loads of cheese. She buys four pounds of cheese a week. And she eats a load of cheese Yeah but if she was proper vegetarian she wouldn't eat cheese. Well if she was a vegan she wouldn't eat cheese. She can't eat cheese if you're a vegan. That's what James is. He's a prat You can't eat no animal fat at all Yeah You've got the sou I reckon you've still got to have er get your protein. Mm. Yes. Yeah but she Karen won't eat chicken. Chicken and fish. and fish . It's the only stuff they'll eat. No meat at all chicken and er fish . Do you know the reason why it's not? It's to do with red meat it's blood isn't it? Blood's red. That's right isn't it? You can't you can't see no blood in chicken you can't see no blood in fish. No. They've got this little thing in their head if it's not got blood in it no red blood they can eat it. It looks like it's a really deep cut by looking at it now. It's sort of like open there. All it was first of all was a little graze on top of the skin. Mm. Because where I was making boxes it was pulling the skin and was torn apart wasn't it? Yeah it kept going there all the time. They do though don't it? So the other day last week I was bleeding Was you? Yeah I cut myself. And erm the next day I had er it was all white there Was it? and I took every little last bit out. But I never noticed it er Serious. It was not funny because what I did. I was cleaning out knives and the metal thing that goes over the knives there was something there and it was a nail and I just pushed and I caught it. So I took a nick out of my finger and ended up with from the top of my finger. Mm. Nasty. blood enough goes over my fingers cut his thumb and and all he did was just sort of bathed it put on it. It was a deep cut and ended up And a good cover up job. It didn't make it heal just good stuff And she was mhm Mm. Yeah! She was had on a full stomach. She had to do it before she ate anything. She said most of it was it wasn't the actual looking at the hole it was that she was hurting him pushing it in. Mm. And it weren't hurting him at all but it was making her feel sick thinking that she was hurting him like. Dunno. He just won't go. It being her first child . I don't know what I'd be like. And he sleeps in a normal bed. Do he? Yes. That's good for a baby. He sleeps in a normal bed all right. She was packing his stuff and I was bringing him upstairs to his room like away from her like. Like he knows she's in the house and he wants to go wherever she goes. But if she's not in the house it doesn't worry him. If he knows she's not there. So I can go upstairs and put him in his rocking chair. rocking chair. Well there's not a lot I said to her does he sleep in that? It's a full size single bed? And she said yeah. I said bloody hell! I never knew a child of one could sleep in a normal size bed. cot yeah. Well no. She must leave his door shut. She's bound to isn't is? She puts on the alarm like one of those baby alarms. stairs isn't it? That's it. Got to be. And she's got to go downstairs to the kitchen. He was trying to go upstairs last night cos she was upstairs and I wouldn't let him. You do think those bloody stairs As soon as she was upstairs. He knew that she was up there I let him sort of try and climb up. Well he climbed up the bloody first stair. Like he was behind er I never held him I was behind him like you know well it gives his legs a bit more like movement. Who's that who was on the telephone? It won't be long now before it's off. That'll be it? she'll have to keep an eye on him then. Yes, hard work isn't it? You should have seen him he climbed on top of a box last night to get to the telly. Did he? Pardon me He won't listen to when she was saying get down. He wouldn't listen to her like sod you. Do you pull the curtains? Mm. on TV. He loves putting his getting his hands in your mouth and pulling your teeth. He loves that. Mm. Does he? your teeth. And he likes the fridge magnets. He'll sit there on the floor with them and play with the magnets. He chucks them off and puts them back on again. Very intelligent little baby isn't he? Mm. And he likes chucking things on the ground. If he chucks something on the ground he'll pick it up and give it to me and he'll do it all the more. It's a little game isn't it? Ha. I was trying to find him some couple of pairs of socks but I couldn't find anything I liked. The only socks they had at bloody Kingsworth were all girlie ones. Oh! Shaws. They usually sell nice little socks in there. I got little pyjamas for him three ninety nine at . The ones that I did want with turtles on it never had any socks. It's always the bloody way. Had two to three. I didn't really want two to three. Three to five? Five to seven. Yeah. Turtle ones they've got what else they've got proper pyjama sets Yeah. They've got pyjama sets in there. They're nice are they? Yeah Quite cheap pyjamas for the boys and nightdresses for the girls. Yeah nightshirts for the girls isn't it? Oh no! It was all in italics. She was off she was saying I haven't done this look Should have laughed all the more weren't ya? Do you want to go to the Pete's house? For some orange I'd say when you go to this afternoon er ring the doorbell and say er just get handed a crash helmet and say this is for coming after . They bite. Who do? Oh come one You should you should have have heard her it was terrible I thought oh my God he's he's going to cut the atmosphere like a knife in her today. Nice. I just hope she's civil enough because it's his birthday. Oh Yeah I spelt it wrong I said at least I can put another N on it. I spelt it right What? Two Ns. Everybody else she said a lot of people put one N and it's probably what . That's what you said to me yesterday. You said you'd see other cards with one N and er I thought I've put two Ns So I said to her while she was upstairs I got a pen I know it was a black one and I wrote in blue and put another N . Put another N . Put another N. I said read the bloody words then and she said oh I never read the words she said I looks at the pictures. I said no you've got to read the words Read the words . And she read them all and isn't that lovely? Yes you've got to read the words I said you've got to read the words. Always read the words. I said it's just extra if you've got a nice card to go with it. it's dreadful I mean she went on the fruit machine upstairs last night. Yeah. She put some money in she couldn't anyway got off. She said I'll put one more pound in gonna lose all my money in here. Anyway got off. She put another couple of quid in didn't she now. She said didn't you she sticks another pound well win after win after win weren't it? No fucking difference. Twenty quid she got out of it . So I said I said we'll get ten pound each. All right she said. I said tell you what seeing's we've got a load of . We had two jackpots. I said you put one lot of checks in here and I'll put a lot of checks in the other. All right so we put two and two nothing so I put two and two in the other machine three pounds that's not bad. Four pounds we've taken is frequent cash and a pound each and a pound at dinner time. I said here I said got she said oh I have to go into cash now I suppose I have to owe you another bleeding pound here you are . Anyway jackpot's free again. So you know done it. So at any rate out . Jackpot's free again done it all. bastards likes this and she starts laughing. At any rate wins couple more quid we're playing together now and er also she nudged see the jackpot's in the middle no checks is coming out. It was empty. It was empty What was she doing so she went straight downstairs ay she ripped me off so she said I'm ever so sorry Ann. So she said look I've only got a little bit in my pocket. She only had four jackpots in her pocket. She said look look. So he said never mind he said you can have it put on your note card. So she went like this pulled our her note card and said I can put it on now she said. She said put it on now. He said sorry I ain't authorised Ooh goodness! She said you are fucking authorised here aren't yer? He said yeah but we're not authorised to put on money on anybody's card Ann. She said well it's not fucking funny she said I'm not fuck laughing am I? She said fucking machine out there not paying me out and your cancel my money on the fucking card am I supposed to eat today? So he said how was you going to eat in the beginning Ann? Well on my fucking wasn't I. But Ann I'm not suppo Well fucking hell she said . So he said take her away just take her away. So anyway off we goes course when we come back for half an hour at ten o'clock well out of the other machine weren't it? Oh fucking. Oh Paddy was there weren't he. Cause he was there when we won at nine o'clock just after five. Well he was still there at ten because he was there at half past ten. He said right then I suppose you're going to take me over the wee pub now. I said no Pat I said some of us are working till six o'clock. I said we'll have a barrel of Guinness ready by six okay no probs. He said I put all my money in there. So I said it's your fucking problem isn't? I keeps on getting from So well it's cost There's one guy up there's got blond hair and every time I go up there she's going to take all the fucking money out of the machine again now. Probably. Is it Thomas? He's he's quite good looking. He's a bit tubby. He's got short blond hair. Thomas. I don't know what his name is. Thomas It's not his name but we calls him Thomas because he's chubby. Yeah Thomas. Because of Thomas the Tank Engine. He's a he's a nice looking lad. Yeah. That's Brenda's son. Is it? Yeah How's Dotty? Dotty. She's fine yes. She gets a bit of problems with her arthritis. Specially with the hundred and seventy pounds we were doing. Cause they were bigger bags and they were heavier she's getting real problems I said what's this the Ann with your ass. Ann fell off the fucking chair.. going to sit down it weren't they? She sit down on the chair but she'll want to stand up a little bit cause we got bins underneath and she wants to put her feet on the bins Oh yeah. He said oh look Ann's on a . This on the fucking floor didn't she? Sat there with her arms folded like that What did Ann do? this happened a couple of weeks ago. They had to stop the machines because everybody was laughing see with Tara on the floor so Ann didn't even know she'd fallen off the chair. She said where's that fucking Tara she gone for a fucking blow again and they're all laughing and she said what are you fucking bastards laughing at and there's Tara there with tears down her face Tara tried to tell her she fell off the chair well that was it. No wonder you like working with Ann. You what I reckon you should do? Take that tape machine in with Ann and do it without her knowing. Yeah. Without her knowing. Take it in one night one day next week What are you next week? Two till ten . Two till ten . Every time every time you go talking to Ann put the machine on . Who you got What day? Monday Mother. It's got M in front, Yeah Monday. One till ten One till ten? What about our Dougie then? Well he told he's coming round in the afterwards. Oh sweetheart . Whatever. All bleeding Dave told Ann and he thought Ann told everybody else they had to be in at one o'clock. She didn't she didn't know any different. And I said to Dave what's this then I've got at one o'clock an hour's overtime. Oh I was meant to tell you but I've been so busy. I said that's fuck all right I've been down the canteen. Oh language! He said can you come in at one o'clock? So I said well no not now. . It's too late. Oh please. So I said all right then.. That's the one That's the one I said to him Jeans! I said yeah they're now in fashion Dave. Haven't you seen 'em they're very common. Oh! And someone said you ought to get yourself a pair. Oh! Oh and what did he say? And what are you trying to say? Well on you these blue things they're not really very nice are they? I don't like them. No. jeans? He said no you're not in charge of. Oh! What did he say? All right. What you get away with. all right. Just stomped upstairs. He come back round about an hour and a half later we were broke down weren't we? He said typical what fucking breaking the machine already? I said we never touched it. Anyway later and Dave there see. He's trying to fix it. Couldn't he fix it the was gone. Anyway he said nothing to do with me now you've got to get Spark. Any rate Spark comes and Spark thinks like Dave. Ah! So any rate me and Ann were looking and Spark's fiddling about and he's making faces at Dave see behind his back . Of course me and Ann were laughing Dave were . He couldn't look at me and Ann cause we was laughing . Jeez! So any rate when it comes to one of the fucking screw's loose A screw loose! Fiddling with all the nuts all the bolts Screw loose! so Spark looked up at Tony and said you sure you're a fucking fitter. And he played with all the knobs. We keep saying that to Steve if he can't figure out something me and Marie look up and say get a fitter! . So he needs a fitter desperately. Cos Dave was there trying to do a fiddle. With all the buttons and all the knobs see. And I looked up at Dave and said here Dave and he said what? Is that right that you were a security guard before you were made up to reception manager. Yeah. I said I'm glad you weren't a fucking fitter then. Oh that was it. Ann was screaming wasn't she. She nearly fall down on her face. Oh my gawd what a night you had! It's what this what I said to Dave. I said oh you've got Sally with you next week haven't you Dave? Oh! He said Yeah. I said I feel sorry for you. He just started laughing. every day. Gotta learn about haven't we . So I've got me jeans on and the first word I says to him is so why have you shaved your moustache off Dave? Because your hair The best crack though was when he come doubled back short Friday and designer stubble round here. He hadn't shaved. Dave always shaves unless he got up late like so he started whingeing at me and Ann because we got our jeans on. I said here Dave and he said what? I'll have you . I'll fucking have you in a minute. I said what's the matter with you Dave are you upset or what? Hmm on the catwalk I'm too sexy on the on the Russ erm Abbott? I'm too sexy No. No it's really funny I'd like to watch that today or something. Rottweiler I'm too sexy for my driving instructor isn't that? Oh really digging at her comments on the book. as we're doing twelve hours perhaps I'll come in tonight and the machine will actually be running. Think die of shock. And the next day he said think die shock and it was running for at least ten minutes she got ratty and and Steve come out very nasty. Like stupid innit. He said now I've got to give you a bollocking . And Ann said well I'm waiting, I ain't waiting all fucking day someone's got to some work like. Steve said just get out of the office just get out of the office. Anyway the next day they were on the er if machine is not clean when I come in then I should not run as I did not run this morning for four hours as I might as well come in on Saturday morning and clean them myself So she in . So she went she cos her sister she she won't come out. Oh! And the Rottweiler come in this morning and she never does any overtime not any not Saturday morning not Sunday. she was coming to help clean the machines. Oh! Isn't that nice? So that was it. She was walking down and I shout you bloody old troll. Well that was it. Andy said what did you call her? I said old troll. He said better that Rottweiler isn't it? And I said well yeah. Ho! I said look the terrible Rottweilers are coming through the door. I said who you want back I said look terrible Rottweiler twins? Ah he said. Is our Ann like that erm with the rest of them? Yeah. Is she? Where did they live? sound like bloody . Don't like Well now she's had that car now what? Four weeks? Yeah probably Yeah four weeks. Well she's already put a hole in the exhaust and a dent in the front She went she said you fucking you fucking done it. She said What? He said you've got a fucking hole in the exhaust. You've only had it two minutes. I never, it's your fault she driving it around for five months with no tax. I said aren't you going to get some tax? You do know that if you're stopped you've got to get all that backdated don't you? And you're going to lose sixty five quid. That's a lot of money. There's a woman on the er family fortunes that was on last night. And one of the sisters she said she started for this company didn't she. Was she with them what? Three Three weeks. And she smashed the van up completely. And then three weeks later she married the boss. He proposed to her and they got married. After she'd smashed the front of his van up. Yeah so anyway and I said that's not very nice so we were talking this morning about her and I had to tell Ann didn't I that she drove to work three days on a trot in her bleeding lights two. She didn't. Oh Mum I told you about that. You know the dual carriageway don't you where the er garden centre is Yeah I know where And she was coming back along towards and she comes all along the dual carriageway and this car in front of her so he there and he's flashing away his lights and kept his indicators on daft bastard she says and while he's doing that some fucking overtakes see but he was already flashing his lights and puts his indicators on. So anyway she comes along into the dark pet and she said oh heck she said you must have a power cut along here I can't see nothing so Nick reading the Sun see so he's put his head over and he says yeah it is a bit dark. You haven't got your fucking lights on you stupid cow he said. Put some lights on. Oh she said puts the lights on. But it's still dark I still can't see nothing. He said you stupid cow you got your side lights on. Puts the lights on. Next morning off they go to to the shops she goes turns all her lights off and ignition it's in the car she starts the car up and off she trundles coming in along. She said I can't understand it Nick she says everybody keeps flashing their lights at me she said. Perhaps he fancies me like so he still didn't take no notice. Stupid cow you ain't got your fucking lights on again have you? It's that switch there. So she puts her lights on. same day. The next day she did the self same thing Oh my God Pull into the shop out of the shop. No lights. Poor old no even her daughter Cheryl was laughing so much that her stomach was hurting and tell her to shut up. So we was talking about things like that and so she she said like selling her car now she told us how much money she made on it. And he said oh he said it's a bit mean like. She said well not really. So anyway she started talking about it. Nick said talk about Sterling Moss he said sodding fucking when you're sitting next to. What's the matter Nick? Well tonight typical. He said we've had bollards put up by our now. So you can out it's for access only. So I said oh yeah. So you got to park on the road. Sorry about this. So I said oh that's nice. He said yeah and there was tractor on the opposite side of the road and a lot of traffic coming up and down. He said that dozy cow only decided she was going to try and fucking pull out with a great big juggernaut coming down. I said is pulling out . He said she would have if I hadn't pull her fucking hand brake up. Oh my God! I said Andy what is the matter with her? I was tired weren't I? Did she stay in bed all day today? No she got up and fucking did go. She this afternoon? This morning. What she got a breakfast session over the Oh my goodness. I thought I be the for the bingo. She's worse! She's worse than you for the bingo. Short Friday. She goes straight after work. Here we're on two till six and as the old man come and pick her up and drop her off at the bingo. Good God. Terrible isn't she? definitely with her old man's Sierra parked out. I told you about what she was like when the car wouldn't start didn't I? No. Fucking lights flashing and the alarm going off. She walked off and made out it weren't her car. It's wasn't it? I'd better go and report that to so I just going there by myself. Oh how mad. I'm not telling him it was mine. Oh she's funny. The fucking back window going up and down weren't it? Oh. I've got to go to bingo with she one night bloody numbers. last night. Well Nick don't like smoking like he don't smoke. So she puts the windows down see. She won't let people know. The Camel's here so she had hold of the steering with one hand she was smoking the other with the window down and Nick wanted to put his window down. But he pressed her button and pressed her window up. He got her fucking fag stuck in her window. She was going like this . She said to me. Where's the fucking end of me fag gone? I saw the bits coming off her fag She said you stupid bastard well he was like this weren't he? I said what will you do pull over and have a go at him. If she carries on like that with her kids and all they're going to be like her. Did I tell you about her little one who had stomach pains? As she come back she said Dad what? How long's our Mum going to be before she comes in? Another hour. Oh. Why? Oh well I've got a bit of a stomach ache and I want to talk to her you know it's women problems. All right he said. Well he knew what it was. He said you go up and lay in your bedroom he said and I can send her up when she comes in. All right. The little 'un goes to bed. The little one's heard Mummy pull up on the drive and has come down the stairs well before anyone could say anything he got it out. She might have er period you'd better go and sort her out. She said what. She might have one of her periods you'd better fucking go and sort her out. She's your daughter She said there's no need to up and say it like that. She said you could have kept this shut and I could tell her myself. Oh! Well he said your fucking daughter you sort her out. I can imagine her house must be like that It was the same when her Mum got when it happened to her they got her a load of new clothes and she was trying them on and grandad said hey get in here now. Why what's the matter. Take your daughter upstairs. He knew why. They always say take your daughter instead of Your daughter. It's always your daughter . Our daughter If our kids have any problems or anything they don't go and see the old man they see . Do they? They tells him all the problems. She says but I don't why they don't tells the old man they told me. Oh! Kids confide in everybody but their mother don't they? They're trying to chuck the kids off they can't take care of them. No. Really did they go to Australia ? No. No. They always lived in . How come they don't go? Because they're kids like that. Yeah I know that but next year I mean you got the tunnel coming out of the Ferry. Why can't they go to France Oh yeah It's all according to how much pressure there is underneath underneath the tunnel. Oh yeah . Yeah I mean it is on a ferry anyway. I mean I tell you what when we I tell you what the littl'un the boy one night. He went to Alton Towers and any ride over a certain height he couldn't go on. No. He couldn't go on the corkscrew he couldn't go up on the ship he couldn't go on anything. It was a waste of time him going but he nagged so much that she had to let him go. Oh! Poor boy. I think she should take him to erm Euro Disney cause there might be a lot high up but there's still a lot to do. I mean there's a lot to see. I've want me papers. I mean them kids would be over the moon if they went there. Them kids would be over the moon if they went there Euro Disney. Yeah where he is? Who? Clayton. I want me fags and my papers. I've been waiting for fags since ten o'clock this morning. I'll go around and see him in a minute. Three hours. Will you? Grab the money off him. Go to the shop yourself. I bet Margaret wonders where . I'm going to get some exercise. Would you like some? That's what I mean get some exercise in your legs. It takes you bleeding ages to start up so you definitely got to have exercise with your legs. It'll start off first of all now and then suddenly it will die. No. It always does. It starts up first George this morning? Yeah he did go I heard Judy go he said I said Ooh. Funny enough she's in bed with . No he said she's gone to work on that bike. I heard her. I said you never heard I said it was you heard. It was Alice. Aye. It was bloody Where's my fiver Julie? She got my fiver. No this is mine. I made a collection for the bin girls. Did you? I said would you two give in to the collection? Give fifty P each. And Lorraine looked you know and erm and she said how much are you short? Well I said I have got nothing out of it at the moment. So he said you'll have to stay in then won't ya? So I took it out of my pocket and he said what was happened then? And I said well any rate he come up and said where's the fiver? And I said here it is. sort the girls out I'll buy him a packet of fags for erm taking us out What for but don't get for tomorrow. Why? You've got the today or you should have got them. Get them for you tomorrow all right dad? Yeah. That'll save me two pounds out of my purse in the morning then. that bloke in the garage did me out of a bleeding fiver again last night. This is getting fucking regular this is. So he right? Yeah. This is getting regular now. I said you sure Well I don't know I haven't seen her all this week he said. It's too much. I've got to do so many hours that it's got people upset. I said well bully for you. I said my mate works and I get better service up there. Which one did you see? The one with glasses? Yeah. The one's that's happy? He was miserable the other night. He must be doing so man hours. Yeah. He's always happy. He always says hello . Hello my love, how you doing? Where you going out tonight my love? Are you going out on the razzle dazzle? I said I hardly fucking think so. I'm going to work. Well you're not going out on the razzle dazzle. I said I could be. He said what do you mean? I said well a lot of them are leaving today. The old super temps I said so I said we're going out on the piss. He said what six o'clock? What time are you going to start ten? No I said I've got to start he said five o'clock? No I said I've got to start six. Well he said that doesn't give you long to go out on the razzle. I said who said we're going out. He started laughing. He said my love all right. He's always happy that bloke Yeah he's always putting When I was going over to Royals. He said don't tell me you want forty Royals don't you? I said no I only want fifty. He said oh you got it right today? He's always happy. He's the best one they've got. He is a nice man. Cos he's so happy I mean. He greets you. Do you want to hear about talking about fags? What? Dougie bought a me a packet of fags last week not worth smoking. It's like smoking So I said to Ann here you are you can bleeding have these. I said be all right with your coffee in the morning. I'll give it to the old man she said no problem. She gives them to the the old man. He said what the fucks this? She said they're free shut your mouth. Thanks for the tip out it out got. Got his tobacco tin his smoke. Lit it up. She said what are you doing that for? Well that's worse than Silk Cut. At least I can get a drag now. He must be cutting down now. He didn't like it. Well he smokes six months of the year roll ups and six months of the year fags. Because he gets coughs and splutters like. Oh well. I think I've got Dot on to Wills. But he aren't got time at work see? Is he a young man as well? Yeah. I think I got Dot onto Wills. Yeah. Well she smokes Lambert and Butlers and as I say she had one fag left and she said I have to keep that for Norm. She said for when I get in the car. Her husband and erm I said well have one of my fags then. She said oh well let's have a try of one. She said oh there nice ones she said they're better than Lambert and Butler. You get twenty five for a packet. Yeah. Hm yes it's better isn't it for the extra She smokes these red things. She like You made her a cup of tea didn't you this morning? I heard you. I heard you. I though well she's happy just come in. I was. I was wide awake. I opened my eyes like that. I thought no. I opened them again. I thought whatever's that dancing around in the bedroom. And it was Clay he's dancing through here dancing through there and dancing back dancing back. He said I would have asked you if I had had any trying to find trousers awake. So he had to wear his and he don't like doing that because it gets stuck in the locker. What time did you come down this morning then Bet? Me? Yeah. Er not very early. About quarter to nine twenty to nine. Is that water on there? Yes. Did Lorraine come out or stayed in there? Stayed in there and I thought what She's probably embarrassed as you are. And she's probably embarrassed as you are I'm all right with when he's talking to her. But I feel stupid Cos I went in this morning I'd better on the piss last night. He left his car in the car park see? Well if they do it again you should say come in and have a cup of tea . And I looked in and thought I wonder if that's Clayton in there or not. I'm going to walk in anyway. So I walked in and she went oh morning love. And I went do you want a cup of tea. And she said oh yeah I said tea or coffee. Tea'll do. Put's the kettle on. I thought I'd better make a cup of coffee . So I went in and asked her if she wants a smoke. Give her a smoke. She said what's this? I said Wills. Oh I don't that. I'll smoke my own. So at any rate then please yourself. she was smoking like that so I made her a cup of tea took it in and put it on the stool. I said I'm going back now do you want me to leave the kitchen light on? No. All right turn it off.. Such a carry on. So what did you do? you can't see in there. You should just say to her cup of tea. Coming in for a cup of tea? I'd feel so embarrassed. She probably feels as embarrassed as you do Bet. And she always stays in that . I know. She doesn't come out? No. I said to Sally I said I wouldn't be surprised if they two get married. I wouldn't be surprised. big plans to buy Christmas presents shudder. About one hundred of them. Hmm. Second children. Yeah. As you say. So they're second partners and their Mum and Dad. Boy you think Ten grand kids You think what my Aunty Carol's got to buy for. Now out of the family of family Oh don't talk to me. included there are about ten. Ann's got a head on ain't she? Why? Her sister I think put her . Was moaning about she had to buy three Christmas presents and she only got two kids So Ann turned round and said oh you're fucking well mad I got to buy five presents and I've only got two kids. And she said not only that whenever my kids babysit for you you only give em a fiver each. Oh she had to buy five presents and she only had two kids. That's right. And Ann said well if you going to fucking be like that don't bother to buy my kids anything. I won't buy your kids anything. Yeah. She says and I will spent that extra couple of quid on my kids. So said if you're going to be like that be like that. So she said don't you fucking worry I am. Yeah. She said bollocks on you lot for Christmas. I ain't buying nothing. Oh she said oh you spent money on the shirts for the kids. That's it you can't these days The kids come first isn't it ? Well they were going with their at the beginning of the year up for register and they're catching up on it now. Oh. That's it. I mean we've got kids and the kids got to come first and the adults come second like Ann said . It's all right for them because their kids can go on holiday with them so they've got no problems. But because their kids can't go abroad then they get a letter through to say like you know they are going on camp would they be interested. Of course Ann sends off and says yeah. But that's three hundred pounds for them to fit the bill. Oh yeah! Hundred and fifty pound each. That's a fortnight mind. Yeah. And that's everything. That's all their spending money involved and their day trips off the lot. She's got no worries. Her and her old man stays at home and has a fortnight together. Then they go at camping school or whatever wherever the school's going. The kids do that. And then they go on holiday with Ann and the old man. And when they go on holiday with Ann and the old man they used to get through a hundred pounds a day and they go for a week. That's seven hundred pounds like sometimes more. But she said I don't mind because I would like to take my boat but I can't. When we went abroad I know we've spent three or four grand when we're over there with the holiday as well like you know. She said so it's got to be done really she said and I feel so sorry for them she says because even when they get older they still won't be able to go abroad. Yeah. Well I mean I don't see why they And they've had so many operations I can't see why they can't go on a camping holiday in France. I mean they can go on the ferry. Take the car out there. They've got their own car. Yeah but they go to somewhere bloody they go to the same place every year and they have a real good time. And she says might just as well be with the kids like so. She ain't really worried. She says the only trouble is when they get older I mean I am I mean I'm quite surprised that your floor. Whatever floor that Ann's been on hasn't done something like put some money in so that they can take em somewhere else something like over in France or something like that. She wouldn't accept it . She's not that type is she ? She'd say don't be silly . Simple isn't she? and they don't want nothing for their kids. She puts them first don't she? Oh yeah. Whatever they want they gets. my darling please? She bought them a telly. I reckon they should have next year a long weekend Purple All that money in your pocket haven't you? Let's have a look . There covers Even if they all go in bed and breakfast and take them two kids to Euro Disney. She erm little T V each. It was T V between them. So many hours and so many nights and . But I would have bought them one each. Yeah. But they're only having one big present each this year. And that's it. That's it. Yeah . Yeah I know. I'd go mad. She said that fucking last year I said. What's the girl ? No. Boy thirteen and a girl eleven. Oh. Or twelve that's either two years or a year between them. And don't fight. No? Of course boy and a girl don't They only argue. They don't fight they only argue but they can't fight cause of their ears. And I think the boy suffers from asthma as well. Well there you are. It's different with a boy and a girl cos You got your washing out mind you. Because when You been out there? Her boy went out on this work experience thing for his school like. He must be older than thirteen. He must be fourteen . He must be fourteen hmm . Yeah. Anyway they paid him I told you didn't I? They paid him and the reason they ain't going to have nobody back there any more back to this firm cos safety rules. And erm she was saying that when he was there a bloke come round start giving them a little verbal. She'd never had nothing in his ears to protect his ears. So he's shouting it the boy like. And of course the old man was there and he come over and grabbed the bloke by the throat and he said don't you ever shout at my son like that again. Course he was frightened to death weren't he . And he said well he should know better than to blah blah blah Hmm He said my son's fucking deaf you idiot. Well well that is why he don't need to put anything in his ears. Because he can't hear nothing stupid. Well he's still have to put it in his ears. You're going to put your fucking eyes out. Hmm. I bet he got all upset. Well everybody knew when they're up. daft anyway and nine times out of ten you've got to look at him and speak to him and that because he can't understand and er bloke gave him the verbal. He was nearly crying wasn't he. Ah! We didn't know what to say. It's got to be tumble dried. He didn't know he had to give him a little verbal back. It's already What about the football? my white shirt? You picked Liverpool? Yeah. Put it on then. Turn the tape off. And the day that he left. Is it finished? No it's not finished. It's just that you're going to get that on. Yeah do you know those chocolates you had. How much were they Julie? One pound nine pence some at pence Was it two pounds summat three pounds summat? Contrast. Contrast. I got you a single like a small box Single didn't you ? And they had a double box for three pounds six or something and there are what at Woolies they're about three fifty six so you're saving fifty P. Oh not a lot . But still But you're saving something. You save fifty P. I mean if you'd rather get them if you'd rather save fifty P. You'd get them in there wouldn't ya? Well yeah I suppose so Rather than get them in . Yeah if you want to save yeah yeah. Oh well. I mean if you don't get much of an item off an item you'd know that is well in date. Hmm Hmm. If it's that cheap It's either that or there's not a lot about. If there's not a lot there then they won't put the price tags down. But if they're got a lot they will. Well I mean well I don't mean you'll sort it out yourself. But there ain't nothing on that pack. Hmm. And luckily enough I don't bloody know. So when I've been fussing about in there What are they called? Erm I heard it when I come in didn't I? Yeah. isn't it. It begins with a B. You can see the packet there orange packet. Yeah I can see it packet. Yeah Ah! I don't like them. And chocolates all round like. I'd like we had more Cadbury's in Birmingham once. I'm going back years. I'm going back a bit there . Well they had tea coffee and sandwiches cakes. They had fruit juices for kids . Now I got one lot of fruit juices and I said to go and get some more and there were six empty on the thing then I chucked them in and then there were another six empty like. I suppose you can get can you get so many up you can in a lot of places can't you? No I know you used to have a price. But it worked out that they spent twenty thousand pounds on letting families go round for these three weeks. It would be better to they didn't have the machinery like you got. No it was all hands all done by hand no automation. Yeah yeah. And the villages all round there are pretty out there. Ours ours can't be done automated. That's right. You can't have a computer put the eggs in the pans because it's got to be it's got to be done manually by a worker. Yeah but chocolate's got so expens My dad's he didn't understand before he seen the mini eggs why they're so dear. There's a lot of work there. It takes thirty two hours before they can be packed. They got to be stored for thirty two hours. It takes so long. So basically all they're saying it takes thirty two hours to do one egg. Yeah. As with Double Decker it can take the most two hours Crunchie takes the most two hours As with Crunchie are there no Crunchies there now? Yeah. There were Crunchies yesterday. No no it weren't yesterday. Huh? packs What packs of Crunchies? Loose one you mean? No I went Thursday. No. I went. There weren't any loose one. Thursday morning there was packs of Crunchies No I don't I likes a Crunchie. I don't mind a Crunchie. It's light isn't it? It doesn't stick in your gob I likes a Crunchie I's eat all the chocolate first and the inside afterwards More than that now though. Oh aye. Yeah but you can buy it You could buy it in a penny packet bloody great I used to get a lot of it when I was in And it used to be dark brown. It used to be darker than bloody . They made it different then didn't they? Mm. It's bloody mass produced now isn't it? So before my work out this morning I said to Joe he's in the bathroom. Done Joe's bedroom and er the Hoover was up there the dusters was up there so I thought shall I shall I. No I've got dinner before one and I thought well Well properly with Crunchie right? They set on a big conveyor belt. There's got to be about eight foot wide and er I'd seen that being done on the telly the other night. A hundred and fifty degrees C that's what it comes out at. Right and it goes like these great funnels spread it Now as it goes down it gets caught down. And when it gets cut. It's got cut like boiling hot oil a laser of oil. Oh oh. And we got told now I didn't know this. We got told that that laser of oil can cut through concrete just like that. Just as quick as it goes through a Crunchie. Bloody hell. So they have so much problems with it like they'll never ever experiment with that again. They'll keep it for Crunchie but never use it for anything else again because they've had so much trouble with it. Blimey! Charles with Christmas presents. Oh did you? I had to give him his paper and his Well. You know battle. There's nothing there Good job put in her puzzle. Don't tell me I'll feel worse. Oh I'm not telling you then. No I racked my brains I couldn't get one yesterday Fortunate. Well I got on the head. She went down on there. So I got one side but I bloody couldn't get out the other side. That wasn't yesterday it were the day before. Yeah it was. No it wasn't it was no I got that That wasn't yesterday No that's right What was the youngest one yesterday? You two are not supposed to be looking at that. I ain't looking Command You look now. Commandeer Yeah yeah that's him language and centipede and all that rubbish. Yeah I said Today he said er can our Joe come downstairs oh you go up and ask him. I expect he gived you a funny answer He didn't I knows that I knows it I knows it. So he ten letters. The one I said come to ten letters. I said is that enough. So he said there must be there must be extra letters in there.. I want to know what a kill joy is. What's a kill joy? Well it's one who spoils the bloody party isn't he? Ten letters. So what's he Ten letters? Yeah. He's a nuisance I should think. And a killjoy is one that don't enjoy himself and let other people When we played that tape back last night. Your voice . You never taped that? We was hysterical . Yeah but can we plays that tape so that everybody's can hear? Yeah Yeah of course you can Never I was totally shocked in my voice. Now to me I sound a lot different than I do on tape. Hers sounds like sandpaper. I sound on there Terrible! I got I didn't know I got Your voice is ever so prominent I didn't know I got I didn't know that I got such a deep voice. I ain't got a screechy voice at all. I never swore did I? You were ever so good. And when you swore this morning. You never had it on this morning? Don't you wish get it? We'll play all that back tonight Oh Bet! We could borrow that other tape and play it on your tape What the bloody hell is that? I was just going to our Pam when you come in and of course Joe was saying what's that like and I never . So I demand to know. No you haven't. I put it on right at the end of our conversation at yours this morning. What did Keith say? Was he all right? He was tired. He was knackered . Oh he didn't hear it . We had the little ear phones on the table. We was I said to do you want to hear it? She said no I can hear it. She couldn't hear it could she? No. It's better to put it out on the table and hear it. I didn't know what it was did I? Ever so good. It was really good honestly. Honest. I want to take this tape out really when I gone out to Asda. I got to nip round Bet's. Yeah cos we've got the tape haven't we? Ever so funny. Yeah but I know but all West Country. You don't realise. I said to those other girls no I can hear it. And Maggie shouting in the background you can hear all what she was saying. Maggie she know nothing about it. Oh my God. Oh! Yeah of course Maggie was here weren't she? But it was so funny. That's what Sandy said. She wouldn't believe would she? No she wouldn't believe it until she Yeah. I never said that Yeah she did. Three times Did she? on the. I came up so loud. Yeah Michelle knocking at the door to see if Julie was ready and all that. He coming out for a . Oh yeah. All of it. I said piss and all That was really funny that was. Yeah yeah yeah. We was laughing She says are you coming down for Christmas and I said I don't know yet. I said things is bothering me a little bit. So she said well why? So I said look Pam, I said you know why. I said you know what's all about and to start with it's bloody nonsense. It's the bloody daftest thing I've ever bloody heard. I Sophie can walk over. She walks in and out and you don't even bloody see her. I said it's a lot of bloody rubbish. I said and another thing I said I'm going to tell you straight. I said Ah! And I Whose is it? This is that market research I'm doing. This got to go back. Gets twenty five pounds for doing that. Get twenty five pound for that. For what? Taping what? Anything. Any conversation for a week. Well And you've used it. Yeah All them F's. That's horrible. Swearing. It's you. You can tell your voice. You can't tell yours is like sandpaper. It's yours It's so prominent your voice. Do you know why I talks loud? Why was that? My father was stone deaf. I think all my family talks loud. Well you're bound to He used to say what did you say? bastard Clay got any money for a collection? Yeah. What you collecting for? School? Ah yes I going round for a collection too. I've got enough for one for two. Want some pocket money do you darling? Yeah. Going by yourselves then? Do you go to school? Do your Mum and Dad want any crisps or pikelets and things Yeah because I'm selling it. At her work. Yeah Got any to give away? Yeah but it doesn't matter what it is. I'm desperate. Bloody on the air. This is disgusting. I can't ask Julie after yesterday can I? What did she affairs shut your mouth. Well keep bleeding quiet then. Ooh! She's been having I ain't coming over yours Christmas. Why not . You said it straight away when I come in here. We want a quiet Christmas. No swearing. No bad language. Because that because I'll never agree. I'll be at church. He's going to mass. Midnight Mess if you ask me. Is that all right? What's that? Midnight Mass? I'm going. We'll go to the carol service at ? I'll be here don't worry. There you are . I behaves myself in church mind. All you seem to think it's bloody Halloween come back again. Yeah I know What church you go to? The Pentecostal? No Courages. in your pocket there? What about it? How about taking me out for a drink then? Who you? Yeah. Shut up. I dare thee. girl friend. Eh? fiddle. I hope there'll be no need to I'm going home now. Not going to be bloody worried about that Oh! I bet I been and forgot what I come in here for now I'm not really sure. if you ask me. God I forgot. Oi! What? What did you come over for? I just You only come over to be nosy don't ya? Well go and hit one . Noisy bleeding neighbours. It's getting like It's what I call So? What you going for ? When I write my obituary Ooh! Obituary When I write that I'll shall have I'll have plenty to write about you know. Your orbit what do you call it? I don't know. What does it mean. Bloody life story then. Put it that way. Do you have a word for her have you Clay? I don't know what she's going on about. You know what do you call it you know? Obituary. No. Your obituary's on your in the paper when you're dead. Oh is it? Oh well Autobiography you daft buggers Biography? Biography that ain't bloody right. No. Yeah it is. That ain't biography. No no. That is your biography. No. That ain't Autobiography. No no. It begins with an O. Autobiography. No. But It begins with an O isn't it? Obituary. Now come on. No obituary is on your in your paper. That's what someone writes about you when you're dead. I don't care care about that I don't care about that! No . O. It begins with an O. No. He says biography. That's all bloody grammar innit. It's autobiography that David so obituary obituary. Autobiography No that's the bloody Biographies What school did you go to? Don't know what. Obituary obit oh God bloody get that out. Biography is your life story. Autobiography is when you're dead and gone and they write about you. No it's orbit Obituary Mum. O-b-i-t-r-y. No that's what they put on your on the top of your tombstone. That's your bloody that's your bloody no erm That's your er Not your epitaph? Epitaph that is. Epitaph on your tombstone but obituary in the papers. No. It is! No you've got it wrong. Not epitaph. you can't afford to put all that in the How old are you? Can you Clay? Twenty seven. Are you Why? 's twenty seven she sick Clay? Hmm. We won't be able to have a great big piece put in the paper. We can't afford it. It's about a pound a word. Don't bother doing that I'll have that money before I goes about a pound a word. I don't want no bloody I can't spell Dave. I'll have I'll have the collection. I didn't know the other day. I thought he's home. I thought I thought he's home. I'll go back in and walk home. He's gonna er get a loaf of bread. Going up the shop. He's got to go out and do this shopping with his bad leg. I think I'll have a paper. No Are you through now? I am through now. Well it ain't here is he? I haven't seen him. Yes but I expect he's upstairs. Oh I better go soon. Yeah but don't let him now. I'll go now. I'll go and get me I want and organ. She wants she wants an organ for Christmas Clay. I don't an organ. I just wants the organ One that she can play a tune on. if it comes to that. What did he say? What's he say? I don't like a bloody organ. I said ask Jenny if you want to play a tune on it. Oh it were I play a bloody tune on it bloody snake charmer I want an org I want a bloody proper organ. Oh do you? Well they bloody wore out so Proper organ You've played one of these have you? I'm going to buy her one. When are you going to play to us then? I do and she walks out the room. Why not? I I could put a handle on him. And the monkey I got he. Got to go to the shop again. I leave my bread up. Oh. She do play lovely. She not bloody heard She's in the kitchen listening now. I said to Joe I said he said go on then go on then. What was you playing then? Oh I don't know Playing the lost chord I'd know. flaming ripper. It wasn't all the bloody corpses out the bloody graveyard. I don't know no bloody hymns do I? All the corpses in the graveyard! Yeah You mean he's dead. see with Eddie. Is that all what you're getting this Christmas. shut both the doors Oh I'll get an organ all right for Christmas. Chance would be a big fine thing. Oh dear I getting some bird seed Christmas eve. Oh dear! Yeah. It's a good job I don't know really. I don't know if I passed her in the street You passed her in the street as well? Every pastor in the street. Do what? Oh well I don't mind if she says hello Ed. That's all right. Don't worry about it. If you live with them round here you get like em. I put them down on that floor. What are you trying to tell us. That you were posh when you were over in . I were I were but I and weren't I Bet? I never swore over there. I bet you had a wife spot No I never A wife swop? What do I want wi Or a husband swop I used to keep over there. over there. front door key to take pot luck Any luck with you would be pot luck wouldn't it? Oh! Did they debit your bank balance yet? Did they swear over . I don't know. I didn't know em. They didn't talk to me I mean I did talk to they because Coarse were they? Yeah. She gets behind the curtains Well they does that here. I don't. I look through the blinds. I see more Nosy Rosie I tell you what I tell you what I tell you what all I knows here is that he I knows Rosie and Wendy. And you ask me any body's names around here I couldn't even tell you Sylvia's name next door. You just fucking said it. Yeah but that ain't her surname . No no I don't, I don't know her surname Williams all right? Is it? Yeah. It's Williams. Is it? Yes it's Williams. I never knew that I never knew that. Cos a romance is going on there mind. I suppose you've been watching that as well. Oh yeah! that serious love. Yeah but they just comes up to the door and says to her we're going away now. Goodbye. Yeah we're going away bloody neighbour or what. You'll be there. if the lights is on or if the windows is open. Yeah but you aught to tell her anyway. They will police on television I was frightened. I was scared stiff. I thought well should I go up? I coughed She cough before she went upstairs. he never took anything out of here first. No I was bloody fright but I know that other night I shut that door. Monday it was. Monday night it was. I shut that door Betty. He said I said I did. I shut the door behind you. I didn't although I didn't slam it but I did shut it. And I said to our Joe we got to get a another lock for that door. Well I was looking her front door's not locking. Yeah. Have you gotta go to the stairs? Just waiting for your boy friend to come in weren't you? I said Joe might know. Yeah. Don't get bloody ideas Eh? Hey . Yes. he was talking to her like seven years old. Talking to her like seven years old? The fact of that. I went upstairs to see the bloke in my bed and I thought this is lucky it was three bloody dogs in your garden when I went out the other night. Oh no! Was he having a bit? Oh No! Didn't you hear me shout? I said three dogs out here Bet. In your garden. A lit little brown one. Oi! Was they having a bit? Oh they might been but I don't I don't know how long no. That's what you were looking at weren't it? See all the stuff. Tell you what I've chucked many a bucket of water on over them I won't see you again for the rest of the time Chucking buckets of water over them eh? I bloody have done years ago you chuck buckets of water over them. Well what's this whatever you got to spare. bucket of water. If you gave me a fiver I'd be grateful. Oh my God you're a pain. It's like the bloody alms houses in here ain't it? It's bloody terrible in here. Yeah. It's like alms houses. When you're poor and they've got to find all the bills. Yeah but Betty you've given all yours to the bleeding bingo man. He's giving his to the pub. It's keeping people at work. You want a buck? But I keep but if that's all you got to spare yes. Thank you very much. Every little and . That's four bucks three tonight. you owe me that for a year. Where's me money for me crisps? Huh. Or thy goodwill on my friend's part. You've got some friends have you? Yeah I have. What do they do then? Never you mind. Where do you keep Able? Ah? There are a couple of pints left or five pounds has to go . I bet ya I think you'd I'd bet order you two he'd go because he'd go. You can't rely on her. Betty where's the Oh he's been lucky. It seems bloody forty I'd better go and get the bleeding coffee aren't I? What time is it? Quarter past ten. We'll go the front way. Where's he did he bring his car up? Yeah. We've been out in it yesterday. His car is good as gold. He stopped out here. He started go from Bet's come out. No trouble. Why did drive over here for? What? When we come from Bet's? What this Thursday? No when we come out of Bet's to go down the garage. Yeah what's the point of driving from Bet's over your house? No we got the car from the garage right? You were at Bet's. Don't bend it oh ah! Here what's all the Of course she's not here Don't know where's she's been. Bye. You'll be all right? You won't get lost packed lunch? I much Does Devlin want some of that Oh! You can make yourself a few bob there I should think. I should think of you for his finger. Edna! Oh God! Edna? Edna. You didn't know my name did ya? you didn't answer. Oh aren't you clever . Yeah. Mm. I do want a new nobody takes pity on me though quiet there. Eh? white slippers White. yesterday. Did you see them on the counter. I couldn't get them on they won't fit. White goes in her mouth Ta ra see you later. Okay. And you did say sit. packed lunch. Yes . Yes . I think she gets lost . She might be go out for a hike later in her slippers. Well when you enter sixty five mind. Yeah Oh truth the truth got me . She said oh I'm sorry she said. This lady she said I'm not for ages but this lady is in the age range I want she said and you're under sixty five. Well you're under sixty five she said. I'm seventy seven. What's the matter with thee? She says well she was gob smashed. She went you what? She said I'm seventy seven. She didn't believe her. She didn't believe her? No. Mind you she didn't look seventy seven do she? She don't act seventy seven. Like she said you see her first thing in the morning. When she got no teeth in she just got up Oh she is funny. She looks a bit like Laurie. First thing of a morning. John Laurie never come in the kitchen when I come down I thought oh good God. Time to get up. Oh Oh I woke up this morning when me alarm went off and looked at her fucking hell . Oh no way who's there. I'd better go and get me crisps I'll sort this out when I come back. When you coming back? She'll fucking hit me when you're . She probably will when you're gone. Straight in your gob. Straight in your gob. She won't do that to me. No she'll give you mouth with her hand. Don't be bloody cheeky you I must stick up for her Doreen. Oh dear. Just like a fucking mother. Just to say nice girl Doreen. Uh. Stupid . Don't do that not when I'm reading the paper right. All right yeah. Whatever you say my love Interesting? All right my love you read the bit your reading all right. Here you are. ? She didn't hit me. She likes me to Here you are my love. I'll hit him in time. She won't she likes it. I'm sorry? She don't mean that. Don't look at me like that wait wait. Ah! Mother she's hitting me. Bloody good job too. About bloody time somebody sorted you out. What is it my love? Oh you! Mother she's calling me a bastard. What? Where? There. Tell Doreen about about the tele. It's come round to collect the money she asked for it. Oh my God! Did you tell her what she said? What did you say to her? I don't remember what you said to her like. She come up behind me look she didn't know and I said oh don't fret my love. Give her the money like she's got past me she said are you my grandad are my Clayton's dad? And he went and I went and he said yes I am. And she said ooh she said I got two grandads. At least you had an omelette seven years ago weren't it? Er look at her. Right then this is your bingo money you'll have to be forced. You can't sit any money . That's right. mouth? It's the pill. Oh well. Well we have to It's yours. Is it? Eh? Didn't you get an ? Aye Nasty . Papers. Do you combing your hair? No. Do mean combing your hair? you won't find them. Pardon? Oh Clay! What? Give your daughter pound. Have a look in my trousers. You might find a pound in the pocket. Oh that would be a wonder. You could be lucky. He wants to go er river Hm yeah. He got big brains hasn't he? Yeah In fact if he had to breathe it'd be dangerous I reckon. Where's old in my bedroom. No you silly daft woman. Anyone on the site goes to . being what? Those those Well he'd never talk about I always says it to her face Yeah. Yeah. Curbed. She thought she could move No cos he's better off. got her papers she might see . But he's better off Is the paper there? Must of put it in her purse. Eight months. Are you serious? What? Yeah. Fucking hell! Eight months. Yeah. He's got more You're not telling us You'll be when they're gone. You know that don't you? We'll have to stay in here seven nights a week chatting to each other and arguing. Ooh! Ha ha ha Did you hear that Clay? What's that? When you're all gone he's going to put me on the He's still won't bleeding go out would he? My God Yeah but you can lend it to Laurie on the nights you're not using it. Oh very funny. It's the in places at street they tell me these days. Is it? Yeah. It's like the Mauritania innit? I assume the Mauritania's still there. Don't know Mum. have you? I never go up street did they? . Horrible Are you still going I don't know I suppose so. Oh yes Yeah. Erm how do you what you buying the children or don't you know for Christmas? Don't know what? Any chance of buying them all a pair of slippers each? They aren't very dear. Yeah. Can do. Well I'm going to buy the two and I'm going to buy the two boys pyjamas and two girls night shirts and we thought you'd buy the slippers. And we got a full of chocolates and sweets and by the time we put their sweets on the top as well, there'll be lots and lots by for Christmas. Oh yeah. Loads of it we got. We spent pounds. Easily spent about fifteen pounds buying a great big bag like that. ? I know. Well that's for that . You can stop kids eating sweets and chocolates because that's what Christmas is all about. Another kid. Do you like it? Nobody asked you if you wanted anything in the shop. Do you want anything any time or should She don't chocolate. It's no bother mind. Oh I used to like chocolate. Yeah yeah. Well I'm going to find David and I are going to but the two boys pyjamas and the two girls night shirts so we thought if you buys them all a pair of slippers. That's their nightwear sorted out. Upstairs they're going to buy em like erm bloody oh our Kelly's into hair dressing some curling bloody brushes all sorts and that sort of thing for her. Junior scrabble for Sarah and er I don't know about the two boys I don't what we've got sorted out for the boys. So if we could collect it all up together and when we are going down we could take the whole lot down out of the way. Yeah. Kelly's been and had her hair dyed. What's that? She's too young isn't she? Thirteen to muck about with her hair. She's got lovely colour hair and by the time she's bloody twenty one her hair will be a mess. Much too young to muck about with her hair My mother said she's going to go on game anyway. That's what I felt when he's gone and the girls is got no money She says she's gonna get a brown paper bag for her and she said Oh . That's the suppose it's in now it's up by the Mauritania down in Park Street so they tell me. I'd better get some coffee she's going to tell Joe that you charged her this . Why? Yeah at half price. She's not going to think very highly of you this morning. ? What do you think? What? Not going to think of Clare? Oh that's funny. Right so I'll see you later . Yeah Take care then. Don't forget the two Yeah And the bread. Are you going to leave me a couple before you go on and take the Yeah. And when I'm back in a minute or two Oh is he getting the ? Yeah . Yeah . Unless you're going. Leave your money out. I'll get them. Oh put the money out then David. They'll be here when you come back. Right. Two look. Two fourteen for Oh what? You'll get the money in er? What's he gonna do? Go out all day with no fags cos I'm gonna buy 'em. Don't be so Oh he's got more than the fucking That's her money that's To So what's fucking doing it all. Look I just thought I'd Two Mirrors Clay. Two Mirrors? Yeah. Two Mirrors Star Sun. Mirror for Margaret, Mirror Star Sun for me. I reckon it's half past now . It's cheaper to buy a puzzle book. Yeah but they're not open. They don't open . I likes the three papers for sitting back to do the crosswords. It's my insurance see. Oh what shall I do with the washing line? He wants it twice a week. The old cooking cause he'll only eat a cooked dinner You can feed once a week I'll bring him a pasty back from work. I said to Julie about the washing I said to Julie I said you're at home how about you taking this washing machine with you when you go because you're paying. Oh no no she said we'll buy our own. Oh good. Don't when they took the washing machine out and left Julie. They'll bring their washing round here. Yeah. Most probably. They don't care. I don't mind. See give you something to do then. Give me something to do yeah. When you get bored in the Good God! I think I'll get a job in the . Yeah. You'll be Your Stephen's still on about getting his kitchen. Who? Stephen at work. Oh yeah yeah. she come up on Tuesday. She's asked me to get . She's still coming You ask me she's got make up loads of excuses. Yeah. Either do that or she'd have to make it worth my while. I ain't going to bloody go to work and come back and bloody sit home for thirty quid. She's got to pay you lots of money then. Lots and lots Hiya. Where you doing . Pardon? Where to? Like near. I canna more. Somewhere sort of local. Cos I mean your place got the monopoly everywhere else. Hasn't it? You still could go bloody shop where yours is. You want a hand It's horrible though isn't it? You know I mean you've got to ask them you know sensible and the Yeah but if he has another shop is he still going to get his Yeah. He's suppose so. You could put his fucking any where couldn't you? Well yes I suppose you could really. Well anyway she reckons he'll be starting up a business afterwards. Putting with all the rest. Yeah ain't that daft. Why doesn't he — Betty Did you get my fags. This is my fags. Oh is it? Yours are in there. All these That is what he was saying. I sold it when you were upstairs. Yeah. sub titles Do you know what? What? I missed my drink when you drink Martini. How did you manage that. You did. What may You're all Take that stupid hat off. There's nothing wrong with my hat all right. Bloody stupid thing. Wear this fucking thing it's attached to my hair That one's better than this one. You can have it off That is the other crash helmet. No that isn't Well well Thursday then. You've never had it on. No. Fucking hell. You haven't time to put it on. He straight out through the door he forgot about it He must have been out with his bike probably come in got off his bike went straight inside at least I brought my drink with me Well you won't offer me a drink. him one as well. It depends if she lets him in. David David. Oh yeah. What the fucking Ah David. Which way do you place the number down. Yeah. Do you know where the two little catches are. Yeah. Have a look. They've worn. It's not that difficult. They ain't got things like that to worry about. Who? They've got on my car. Oh no. I've got perfect clutch. Too young lady. Did I? If you know the by word. Isn't that true? Behave yourself don't hang about too much. All right. He won't I must remember to buy one of these hats for Jamie. Why? What a fucking He asked me yesterday. He said have you got any more of those. I said yes I got fucking hundreds. So What the fucking hell for He's still tired. Even more tired. Lazy bastard You know why. He doesn't fucking sleep all night. keeping me awake. Mm. I'll be the one that's tired really. Yeah probably. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Oh God. What? Don't. I like it when you get nasty Right. Watch it . Ooh Com on then. Come on then. No now. No. You said I'd got to make the most of it this week end. Yeah yeah yeah yeah right. Oh no no. Don't be silly please. Don't care about fucking me so there! I never. All right then. You did. It's all right darling I haven't annoyed you again? Fucking look what you done to my leg. Stupid woman! Mm. Don't do that. Don't I don't like it. It hurts. Ah. It really annoys me. Doing that. Does it? Yeah. Really winds me up. Good. I thought I told you No Stupid Sure you want me? Yeah. Sure? Yeah. Are you sure? Yeah! You sure you don't No. You don't fancy it then? No. No? Why you bored? Oh God. Black and white. Eh black and white. Ha ha. Have you finished with that book? Yeah. ? No. You never taught me how . If you're very sick you know it says on there. two and black rape. Well you're Could watch the other one another other day? The other's a fucking good one. Mm mm. What's that about anyway that Black Rape? Hmm? I don't know. Tell me I want to know. Well watch it and you'll find out won't you? A little bit ? No. When? Stop messing about. Why?you've changed stupid car. Right? Go on That's a good invention. Fucking hell better be here in twenty minutes. I'm gonna borrow your husband a minute sit on the floor. Alright. Just watch him cos he's liable to be a bit amorous. Right Dave? chuck you out Oh dear dear dear. Erm next next week innit? Yes. I sat here and sat here So you'll have go out on Monday anyway won't you? Yeah I'll say And when I come in I had the shock of me life when I come in. Half past two I thought bloody clock's stopped. And then I thought well I'll go up and go wee and put the heat on. And I come down I thought nearly twenty to three I said well it ain't stopped I thought it's late What Here? Mhm. Yeah. Mind you You want to borrow a fiver? Yeah. Any type you like because I erm you can drive in the council yard then dinner hour used to live there. No he's got a Do you ? Yeah. No they they were alright. feeling embarrassed young man. Sit down my love don't take any notice . And he he said have you ever looked at yourself That's right dear. full length mirror . Blinking shock . But he couldn't wait to get . You might have them in the packs anyway mightn't they? No packs. cheaper in er Yeah. I'll have erm sciatica It's it's this dreadful pain. Excruciating it is. Yes sciatica's the worst you can have. never felt pain like it I And tab tablets sometimes don't touch that see cos it's on the nerves . down anyway. Erm if they've got any. Packet of crunchies if they've got any. Well. Well what did I tell you Well that's alright You got any chops? And he said erm well he said we can ta take into consideration you've four kids he said can extend it for twenty eight days give her a leeway So he said she said well council place without your letter Just get a few odds and ends like you know he said and we'll just jot down that you've extended for twenty eight days . Just as she came out the council she said I I'm just outside the council offices ringing you. And she said they said that as soon as the twenty eight days is up there is to go into but but they've got to take pot luck wherever the Olner estate anywhere. And she said beggars can't be choosers You've gotta do it yeah. There's always a time she might be able to exchange She'd be a fool if she don't do it. So she said mum she said I've gotta take it so Course she has, yeah. that's it. So she said I'm coming up in a fortnight's time the fourteenth cos it's David's birthday that week Oh aye. Oh . And she said I wondered if you could do me a favour. I thought here we go! So I said what is it. sleep round here for two nights. They'll sleep on the floor in the girl's room . Because they're bringing this bloke he goes fishing with either that or out on the bleeding street Knott's Landing. You like this do you? she said Mum she said beggars can't be choosers she said wherever we got to take it. She's gotta take it. bloody things and all this and that. She might be nearer than she thinks. kids might have to be uprooted all over again because it's too far from her electrics up there aren't there? bed and breakfast could she Right then Dave! Alright! She said really in a way I'm glad. Thank you very much. What's he doing Ann? Smacked me arse! Five six minutes you've been in there. Well it's not long enough it takes six bleeding hours to think about it let alone six minutes. Oh I've gone past that now . You don't know what you'll catch! No that's true these days. Do you see that last night on that that well I, I thought it was I lent him a fiver just in case love. the something wife was it? I thought it was some kind of erm er documentary yeah that's what I thought. Cos our mother said there's a documentary about eating the weren't there? And then I switched over and I thought but it's a about this little boy. Oh it was ever so you would have sad There's a sad film on about it tonight That erm chap queen died didn't he, that's Yeah gonna tape it for me tonight. That Ruby Wax's been on this week hasn't she? Yeah, what every night. she's so blunt though isn't she? drop of whisky last night lost his job. There's twenty four made redundant. Oh that is Never said a word to them. They just said it's getting a bit short. And then they wage crashed twenty four of them. Where he used to work. He w he went down to erm for a job but erm I was sad cos he's such a Yeah he's a good worker but see it's th it's the work families innit? that was here Right I might be going up Parsons tomorrow or Wednesday I don't know, so did you want anything up there? Do you want any more soups? No hundreds. Don't talk to she about grub. She's overwhelmed with it. Shouldn't have anywhere to put it if you Did you want a jar of onions up there? Well I got a jar in hamper. It's one pound tw ,ei either one twenty five, it's about that big. Erm . Dave Yeah. Shall we have a jar of pickled onions from Kingswood? Yeah. Yep. The mince tarts at Asda mince tarts Asda. They're one twenty five for a dozen. I got some in me hamper. Well Craig's going down to the local. Then he's going off to a party. So the girls are going to Penny's and they ain't coming back. I don't bother a lot I must be honest. No. Did you want anything else up there? fifty nine today Fifty nine today bloody tomatoes. and I got some fruit up the market on Friday. Pop round there. I got er two pound of cox's apples. Satsumas. Satsumas. Two pound for seventy pence. I'm going up Mackhurst. Ever heard of the big warehouse? Oh I might do and I'm going up there erm Saturday week. Where's that to then mum? Oh it must be over by Caulfield way is it? Er I told you about it cos I went over there didn't I? Well went over there Saturday Sunday, yesterday. Yeah With Terry. And Terry said he's gonna take his mother-in-law and me over, not this Sunday, next week. Nearer Christmas cos cheaper. little bit of V A T on the top but it's not much. No. He said he's gonna get me a new for Christmas. But two hundred Woodbines in there is only twelve pounds something. For two hundred. And cheaper His is? Yeah. Christmas. He said he'll be able to smoke his bleeding head off there! And he said there's he said then. The cheese I buy Asda is called Yeah. I give Jim that bit of cheese he said where do you find this? I said in Asda. He said well I couldn't bloody see it I said no you didn't see it I said because you've got to go to the counter for a ticket. Yeah. Oh! Well! I'll see Betty there he said when she bloody gets on the counters. He said I'll get she to bring out Yeah I will He likes to he likes wash them off, put them in salt water bubble and squeak ages. I thought yesterday I thought well I've got, done too many bloody spuds extra potatoes Bloody lovely that. I've gone right off . I've gone right off of chicken. I only have the breast. If I get your tinned stuff this week. I'll get you four tomatoes and four potatoes? Yes please. And then, the week after I'll get the other When it's convenient she wants to go to the toilet. Up out of the chair. . I said come on lounge about on the settee all afternoon on the commode Yeah. It was typical when he said come on Lilian! On the throne. Ah! Yeah, yeah. Well you've got to haven't you? I mean Lots of girls on this week. Sally's one till ten. Julie's exhausted. They said it's the last day Monday so if you want to borrow any money love . Monday is the last day. Next Monday? So if you want to borrow any love. next Tuesday not this Tuesday Oh I would be grateful, most probably I will. You know what I'm like So for money on Mondays. I'll be borrowing a tenner Girl comes borrow Sally's Julie's. She knocked on the door she said . The gas man come about and er as he went this girl come to the door . Yes? She said Sally live here and I said yes. She said can I borrow her please and I said no. And she said no, I said no I'm sorry I said she don't let anybody borrow it. I said Well you didn't know her did you? No that's what I thought. Anyway she said can I see her. I said no she's in bed at the moment I said but I will give her a shout. Anyway I give her a shout and she said ooh she said . So she said tell her I'm Julia well I didn't know who she was. Anyway she come down stairs she said and she said ooh Julia she said course you can! Oh well she knew her did she? And she let her borrow it and she sent back forty Rothman's cigarettes and said thank you very much, I'm very Oh well. It was nice of her So anyway she was happy. I said we'll have to have our then won't you. When's Pete going over, tomorrow is he? He'll go tomorrow or Wednesday. she generally goes on Wednesdays don't she. Barbara went last week. She got all hers, she got loads didn't she Barbara? Yeah, yeah. gone into Bristol with her mother today. Big Wendy? Do you ever see Wendy up Kingswood? I seen her when was it? I've got to love you and leave you Bet so er I'll just pop round Wednesday? Yes certainly. About half past two is that alright? Yes Then, then Dave can come and sort I out then. Okay my love. So he knows what you want don't he? Yeah. Dave . Do you want anything exciting? Yeah you know s same old usual. Usual, yeah. Anyway I'm gonna bag some up for the kids you know for Christmas. That's what we've done. We've got a big, great big polythene bag and it's with sweets and chocolates Yeah. for them. Cos Dora rang and she said could er somebody get her twenty pounds worth and I said what do you want it for? She said for the kids. I said don't worry we've got it all. Yeah. Ooh she said that's good then. And erm what was it she wants from Curry's? Like . Gives I the rent. . Comes in the next day she bloody want it. I don't get no interest on it see Right then. I'll see you erm Wednesday. I'll see you on Wednesday my love Cos I want to try and get you know things sorted out round there. I've been trying to vacuum this through all morning I haven't even done it Doing it bit by bit I done all Ross' bedroom yesterday. And I said you keep that bloody tidy. You tell him! You tell him Ann! I said about our Yeah I told Jean about that. Yeah How's Dean's Bobby? She's pretty. She's teething. She's got all her, one at the bottom. Ah. And she's got another through at the top now. Ah love her. Love her. I haven't even done the covers yet Oh Julie done the covers for Barbara yesterday. And she said I've still got to do everything yet. Anyway. I'll see you Wednesday then. Okay my love. Alright? Bye Ann. So I all that you want is your tomatoes and your taters? Please. Okay. Potatoes. Don't worry about it if you can't manage it. Oh I can manage that! Well you put your stuff your own stuff and yourself first. Yeah it is. Oh it take our three days . So you're trimming up are you? Well the kids innit? Charlotte said huh. Why aren't you trimmed up she said. Who said that? Our Charlotte said that. Oh she's Oh she got her glasses Bet? Oh! She wear glasses? Bobby Yes. Well she see. Right yeah. Innit a shame. Yeah. She might grow out of them as she gets older. Grow out of them. Very thick. Oh love her. Oh love her Still she said Auntie Ann I haven't got to wear them all the time she said. She said I'm not wearing them down the shop. I think she's a bit conscious of them. Our Pam had them when she was two Yeah. our Pam. And then . She never used to pull them off she was ever so good. If they knows they've gotta keep them. How old is she then? About four I think. Yeah it's a bit much. Yeah but if everybody says no you mustn't see Ah! it's for her own good mind Betty. Oh yeah and she's Yeah need them more. I reckon I'll be going now I got to do Paul's bloody Have you got to go then? tube's hanging out love. lens' is pulling. so I might go down . Do it worry you? No. Oh No I meant whatever it is it well it's, it's pulling Irritating is it? Yeah it's irritating. It is! Twenty two carat not bleeding gold. If Betty! If If they've got a box of Roses out there I could I have. Box of Roses. And get the rest with you know others. Alright? I'll see you Wednesday then. Bye. earrings. Don't say do it? Four ninety nine innit! Yeah. It is. Four ninety nine twenty two carat! Twen twenty two carat! It is. Look. Four ninety nine. Bye Bet. Cheerio Gwen erm Anne. Cheerio then see you Wednesday. Bye. Right. Four four ninety nine. There. Normally seven pounds. Is that right? Yeah. I don't know. What does it say, rings? Yeah. Is that See here look it's Oh you've got to take your ring off and measure it round the circle. Oh. . Triple plated with twenty two carat gold unless otherwise stated . Shop'll check that. is there? Excuse me. You don't think of that do you? T V and your video and sh she gave me a card, that is the gospel truth I'm not telling No she's given me a don't bother with it. don't worry about it. Well it's brand new here somewhere. Yeah but you'll find it. Yeah but I trust her I don't know Yeah we trust her. We always sees what she writes down there. Well not if she writes it down don't worry about it. Yeah but she said she was She's ever so nice. As you said accidents do happen and things don't get put down when you need to verify. No that's why I mean to say You never know that could have been my signature Well I can forge her signature anyway. It don't go for an A B C D F J K they goes for numbers look. Five six seven eight nine. Yeah that's right It's not that it's not like I mean It's not cos you haven't gotta do it from the outside it's from the inside. What do you mean? Th that that circle is got to be the inside of the ring not the outside In inward? Yes. small as that. That's it. See. See what the seven's like. Nearer seven. No you don't do it from the outside of the ring . It's always the inside of seven that. Try it on the seven. That's more like the seven innit? Definitely. That's a seven. You always do it from the inside. Twenty two carat gold for four ninety nine. Plated. Plated. No you always do your rings from the inside of the actual ring. It's never the outside. Innit? No. I gotta get one Ann. Do you know that's cutting, see how that's cutting my finger? Do really hurt. one that's a little bit bigger don't you. Yeah but then you're coming to a What did you say? six or seven. Give us your wedding ring. Yeah but it's loose see Yeah I know it's loose. . That's an eight. I would say that's an eight so you'll need definitely a seven. Reckon? Well if it's too tight you'll have to send it back. Yeah. These are six actually. So You need a seven. I want a seven. I think I'll send for That one with all the coloured stones there. because I mean Why don't you ever go down to Half Price Jewels? Multi-c multi-colour pretty pastel shade stones. Will normally They'll all come off in the first wash. I shall washing I should think I should think all me stones is gone! Alaskan modern matt finish platinum plated set of crystals normally six pound four ninety nine . Yeah but crystals in No. yeah my stone's in there isn't it? Is that yours? Yeah That's erm pastel. pas What's he call it this morning? Has the washing machine come yet? Yeah. I says has the machine come. I mean it was like a bloody interview on that phone yeah. Never done that before. And your music centre, never done that music centre. Mm. Never done it with that Music centre was a lot more money than that as well weren't it? Yeah. Never had nothing like that. I couldn't believe it. Cos well I did say to her why's to worry about. bloody queer. Yeah but that's big sticking your fingers in it. I phoned up the bank this morning. Well cos of that cheque It hadn't reached them. And I said can you tell me if erm this cheque is gone through to er Peter . And she said oh blah blah blah. Of course I'm there aren't I. And she said could you read me your number out like. Well I said blah blah blah. But I give her erm Littlewoods. I give her Littlewoods instead of Peter Craigs didn't I. You wanted Peter Craigs? I wanted, yeah. And she said no she hadn't got no invoice with that number on. Course she hadn't cos that's Westminster. Anyway I ooh I'm sorry I said it's Peter Craigs. So she said well, off she goes again . Oh yes she said it's gone through she said. I said well I said that was the twenty first of it should have gone on the eleventh see but it didn't it go twenty first. Twenty first. Oh yes she said it's gone through she said. Probably she said you'll get that on your next statement. Yeah. But I I I said to Joe well I'm gonna phone up cos remember down Westminster that time When you had that trouble That was their fault wasn't it . There was a nought. And that was through they not me but I mean that was all alright. But it seemed a long time. yesterday. So she said seven days but she was right because she said twenty eight days. Well anything I send for now wh you, within twenty Cos it'll be Christmas. If you'd made your mind up a bit earlier instead of farting about. What she said the most seven days? Well she said er so she said I guarantee No no I said I want it on forty eight hours . I did the . I thought oh bloody Christmas. She said but she said I'll say seven days but, she's put the but in. But anyway that order is through so Yeah. she said she hasn't got it so. I'll start paying for it this week anyway I got anyway I, I got gold necklaces. I don't wear them. necklaces. Th they're dearer than what you wanted Yeah Yeah but you do realize on there they've added no five year guarantee on that. I showed Bet. Yeah. You slipped up there really yeah. You slipped up. Yeah but the the one that I wanted was four hundred and eighty nine No it was cheaper. Weren't it Bet? Aye? Bet. It was cheaper than the one she had. The f five year guarantee? Yeah it was cheaper. It was cheaper. And and I said to Bet look. Yeah it was. No. Not that one. Not The other one with the five year guarantee was a five hundred to six There's three there's d Indesit Indesit Oh no I don't want it No. That's what I mean. But the one Ooh no way. you chose it hasn't a five year guarantee. No the one that I did really want I showed Bet. guarantee was four hundred and eighty nine that was a Hoover Ecologic but The one we see with five years I said to Bet well it's bloody cheaper than the one she's, anyway I I I had enough money on my er thing so Yeah. it's up to you. No me. So erm I'll start I'll start paying from this week anyway. So she said what week's is er no is is it thirty eight weeks. I said yeah. That's right weren't it? Yeah. Thirty eight I said yeah. What was it one, how much was it a week? Erm I've forgotten now. Twelve pounds thirty seven wasn't it? Oh was it. Or twelve fifty seven. One or the other. Twelve something yeah. weren't it? . I said well something like that. So what I've done I'll show you if you want come here. Yeah. I got a brand new card out for you right? Right. So what I, what I'll do, I'm gonna transfer your your erm your there and then that's gonna save just a few couple of bobs alright? Yeah. right. more than that but I thought that saves . Half past seven on Thursday night. seven on Thursday morning. Got to work So so what So if that one's done how much was it we said a week? Twelve. Twelve. What. Alright. Oh god she's playing up here. So I'll try and work that out. I'll try and work that out Why are you playing up? Ooh look why are you playing up? Shut the door Father Christmas. Father Christmas Betty? Christmas tree. How much were these. Eight ninety nine. Bloody gone out and bought one fourteen quid You idiot! Why? You bloody idiot! Why? Because you are! I could have give you I could have took you down tomorrow night between six thirty and nine right ten percent off everything you . Ooh yeah. I got wax coat. Wax coat, you know the wax coats. Ooh! How much? How much are they normally? oh god bleeding expensive. Nineteen pounds ninety nine. That's cheap. Two clocks. How much do you think the clocks? how much? Oh that's pretty. the bedroom. Don't matter if it's got fruit on it does it? How much? How much? No don't tell! How much would you say it cost? One ninety nine! Ooh. One ninety nine! Twenty nine p . Another game there that was a pound. Guess how much I paid for it? No! All sorts of things. Guess how much I paid for the Christmas pud ? Two pound odd I just paid for mine. Guess how much I paid for mine? Luxury with brandy and cherries Oh I got luxury in there. I've just put it in there. Have a look. Come on then, let's see. Ooh mine's a lot better than that. Guess how much? Marks and Spencer's mind with the brandy. Guess how much? I dunno. Five ninety nine. Marks and Spencers. Marks and Spencers. Where's yours? Oh is that what you got off Madge? Yeah here it is. Ooh it's a funny shape pudding. It's better Bet. Two pound odd I'd rather have that shape you can cut . Yeah you can cut that pudding nicer. Yeah nicely You've got another pudding in there haven't you? They don't last two minutes in our house puddings. She . She said she had one last year and it were excellent so she brought me one. You've never had Marks and Spencers though have you? Who brought it . Who brought you one? Ann. that's beautiful. I'll tell, yeah I'll tell you what I had one last year but it was a big one. It was a bigger one. Beautiful. Lovely that is. Yeah. And she said she had this one last year and it was excellent. Microwave. Microwave. you know Bewise? That's where I got them in Bewise they're closing down or something or What Bewise? Yeah. ninety nine. That's cheap innit? I got the kids erm Carrie and Edward a bag. There's their bags. Yeah. very nice. Oh what's happened there? They've got oh that's their start again what's I spent Right. I'll show you this next. Oh that's what I got in the shop. Everything's a pound. I got some hankies. That's for . All that was that's a pound. Ooh. That's for his room. For his bedroom. Ah! But they're always handy to have them, aren't they? What, a pound each? Yeah everything was a pound. There's all sorts. There's toys there's a shop just out for Christmas a pound . We shall have to go shopping Betty How much? That's for Edward. Look and the How much was they? Five ninety nine. The girl's was dearer mind. Where was that Sue? That was in Do you like that? Do you like that? Yeah. Very nice. For the girls. For the girls. It was seven ninety nine. How much money's gone then? No Alma's been erm keeping some money for me and I, she, I give her so much a week and she give it all today. Here that's nice though innit? That's for Edward. That's pretty, that. Do you reckon he'll like that? curtains to match? No. I haven't finished yet mind. Oh Donna phoned did she? Yeah. Look what I got for mother. Mind you don't step on anything. I got to bring it up cos Bet likes That's nice. To wear to bed! I know that's a dressing gown isn't it? That is to wear to bed! That's a nightie. That ain't a nightie! Ain't a nightie. That is! That is . It's not It's a dressing gown. That ain't a nightie. That is a nightshirt he wears to bed. Oh a night shirt. Yes. Yeah see. How much was ? Nine ninety nine . It's erm what was it? It's nice it's satin though innit? Oh I got one of them. Oh I bought mine up Harris's. How much? Oh we well mine was seven ninety nine up Harris's. Three ninety nine! Oh bloody seven ninety nine I give for mine bargains. For the girls look. For the girls. Lovely ah. For the girls. For the girls Bet. What's this for Lovely innit? That's for the . Look. Ooh it's posh look at that! Ooh . How much were they? They're for the girls. Er seven ninety nine, eight ninety nine. Pyjamas and they've got look. I want some for our . These are in . That ain't bad that'd fit Kevin as well see. They haven't got very much up there at No Keyways up Kingswood're not very good. So do you reckon I've done well? Got pyjamas for the kids. And they're cheap. The dearest I think is three ninety nine and the cheapest one ninety nine. Ooh sexy! Gas oh my gas man been. Yeah electric man's been. Anyone else? . So I haven't done bad. Have I? For the kids? wonder where you bought these clocks? Bewise in town one ninety nine. They've got the ordinary ordinary ones but a lot and but I thought that's alright for the kids' bedroom. I know it's got fruit on it Yeah it's lovely. Don't matter. That's nice. One ninety nine. Thanks. You been in town all day? I've got all your fags, thank you. And guess what? Never bought myself any did I. Silly. Ah no. Tut tut tut. You silly girl. all swollen again. Oh not again. What did you go in a car did you or on the bus? No on the bus. I had to drag it all home on the fucking bus. all marks round it They had loads of shops down there with like bargain shops. You go in there and you can't find some bloody bargains Bet. They had coats, just ordinary like coats, eleven ninety nine. I got to put Carrie's zip in for me. I give her two quid. Which is fair enough innit? Remember her zip was broken ? Do you reckon Carrie'd like that? Yes How much were them Bloody three ninety nine for that one and I think I paid five ninety nine for that. So it came out well. Yeah Oh we went into some of the shops they was two ninety nine. they might have one but they wears out come the winter all wet and soggy well one ninety nine. Oh that'll keep them happy. That's not bad is it. No. And the chess set. No Yeah but the kids I I tried to teach Sally how to play chess but she always claimed that I cheated. Guess how much? Do you reckon they'll be alright for their Walkmans? Yeah. I just thought. Have you got it on? No. Why? No. got that on. Seven ninety nine. That ain't bad . Seventy nine p! I meant for the three. No. For the three it's seventy nine p. For three! Yes! They'll be alright for Do you reckon they'll be alright? That was in Bewise. Yeah. I bet They won't be fantastic but they'll be alright. I like those clocks. Yeah I do. I wouldn't mind one of these clocks. Up in the bedroom. I could do with a clock up in our bedroom. In my bedroom. I got one on the sh on the telephone I opened the white one didn't I. This is the red one. The red one'll be better for the girls wouldn't it? Oh yeah that's lovely. Isn't that nice. I got to get batteries to go with it though. Is that for Edward to go with his ? Red yeah Yeah red. Let the girls have the white. I was gonna get one for myself but our mum's bought me one hasn't she. Do you reckon they goes? . Paid a lot of money clock. Oh god. bloody way. One ninety nine. One ninety nine. Couldn't nick them for it could you? No. Got to get batteries Oh you've got to get the batteries for everything you buys. You don't get it with the batteries. I think you've done well mind. And how much was your Christmas tree? Eight ninety nine. tree. It's not a white one. It's a green one. I said I wanted a tree didn't I? Well I haven't been in here when you've said it. up tonight then? up tonight? proper tree this Christmas. Yeah. Hold on a minute. What? She was gonna have a proper tree themselves he erm made her go out and buy one. Yeah that's nice. That's nice innit? Ooh. Yeah. Do he know he's having that? No. Look it's wax Twenty kid. Well that ain't bad That's the price is it? Yeah. He wanted electric shaver. Oh so it's a bit different Our mum tried them on she said but six foot four and a short arse she said Will these be alright on the night then? Yeah cos them wax ones er they're expensive aren't they Julie? They're waterproof aren't they? . So did I do well? Where're you getting your money from? That machine down there? She's been saving. I've been saving for a long time with Alma And I should think it's bleeding spent it and all. What's on now? Don't know. I treated me and mum out to lunch. Did you? Where did you go? . The girls would love it. I expect they've been in the gallery haven't you? Haven't you been? It's a great big, it's little snack bars everywhere and they've got the Italian and the Chinese and then they've got the the taters with all different things. And then and went to a sandwich bar. You have this sandwich like, like that with all the salad stuff in it. And you got ham or tuna or cheese or prawns or whatever. Ooh. And then you get crisps and coleslaw on the side with it and like hot chocolate we had. That was five pound. And for two Yeah. not bad. So we had a big sandwich you know with salad and with crisps and that on the side and the hot chocolate and it was five pound. Ain't bad then was it? Then they got the burger bars but it's all in and out quick. And it's nice and you can have a fag. I've never seen these before. Oh you've got to go in Yeah it's a soap thing innit? No it's a bathroom kit. Is it? How much is it? Nine ninety nine. I thought where's Edna. Yeah. It hangs hangs your towel. had a good day down there. They had the boxer shorts with the man's hanging out. reject shops Our mum said you missed the best night of your life. There was a bloke there and he was being rude Said there was wine all on the table. Our mum said it was a fantastic, she'd never been, she said her and her mate was wetting their knickers all night. She said Bet would have loved it, and Edna. She said it was fantastic. It were eleven pound six for everything. Eleven pound. What about the six? the food and all. Food and all? There was wine on all the bloody tables and lovely. I heard they had champagne. Oh. Can you turn that radio off? I want to listen to the phone in. I got the whatsname on. What? What? The whatsname. Don't ask me. I dunno what it's called. What do you want that on for? I'm trying to listen to the radio. I want to listen to the phone in. What's the question then, on the There in't a question, for yesterday. says it'll be coming in on Saturday you want that one as well. Oh I can get that off Maggie she saves her papers. I, I might have Saturday's. But Joe'll have a look in her bag. I want half the winnings. Oh alright. Saturday. Saturday. Well have you got Saturday's there? No I haven't. Saturday. Got rid of Saturday's. We will because Jo keeps them all. You put's them out for the paper man don't you? And Maggie do see she keeps hers. Well where's yours? In the sack? Yeah must be. You should put it out. They use the papers Betty. I know. Is the sack gone? Have a look. Yeah. If it's too dirty I'm not bringing it in mind. Alright. Shut up. twenty five pound haven't I? Mm. If she's lucky. I've done them. Now them in the Sunday's paper. You've got to find out six mistakes but I found It's not in either of those and so it must be the one that's closed and I'm not gonna open that it's yukky. Yukky nasty. Right Ann. Another token. You want day one which is Saturday. Alright yeah? And then what? Just bung it in the envelope and send them off? Just bung that in like that seal it down and put a stamp on it. Wait till Saturday morning and then they'll tell you then. Send it off. You mean I got to send that off? Yeah Saturday. You got to send it is December the twelfth. Yeah. Want Saturday's now. You, no you want erm tomorrow's. No you got tokens every day. Have you? Yeah. Oh yeah. It's every day is it? Oh yeah you'll get one in every day. Yeah. But you got to have Saturday's to start with. But you got to have Saturday's to start with but you got and all this week's It's a wonder it don't say it. What paper's that? It says at the Wait a minute. It says attach our three tokens. Saturday. So that's Saturday Monday and Tuesday then. No that may not be Saturday's. Yes it is it says Saturday's. It says Saturday's? Yeah. Oh. Cos this is two and three so it says to three tokens. Oh well it may be a different picture then coming on Wednesday. Yeah, probably. And then you got to send it off. And put your entries in an envelope and send it to Asda Contest. Oh So get it on. Get Saturdays. Well yes. Cos how many things did I put in for the thingums in the draws in Asda. I put I know dozens in. Oh I never win a bloody thing. Yeah but somebody gotta win haven't they? Yeah. Yeah. Might be you Be nice wouldn't it. But is it, is it a , have you got to send it, you haven't got to send it to Asda? Got to send it to the Mirror haven't you? You got to send it to the address The Mirror. Yeah. Oh Mirror it is? No somewhere or other. I dunno. Let's have a look. .Asda contest, Daily Mirror,. Yeah I reckon that might be lucky seeing you did that yeah. You never know. Somebody gotta win haven't they? Yeah. Might be I. Well the other day they they were so easy the other day I thought to myself erm who was it, what was it, it oh who, who was the one that sang the green grass of . I mean I knew that didn't I? And then that other was a member of parliament and I knew it's erm I knew he, I think it was erm oh I can see him stood up there. Tory member of parliament. And I know his name not it's sommat like erm who can I say. Oh it'll come to me in a minute who it was. And Joe said yeah that's he. Oh M ,Mi , Michael, Michael somebody. Stout , stoutish man. . He's something like vicar but he's a bit stouter. I knew, I knew he. And then on the other one was erm who wrote erm no, what was, who was the sommat of the Blytons. Well it's Enid weren't it? Oh Enid Blyton. That's three easy ones and I done he. Mm. Bugger me Michael M , begins with a m. Michael No it begins with M. And there's two m's. Michael sommat like that. Oh. It'll come to you. It'll come to me yeah. Michael, something like maize, something like that. Anyway I'm still waiting for the postman. Oh dear. How's Mike alright? Yeah fine. Still working? Yeah For his living. Sally hasn't got my stuff yet? No. No. No intentions of getting it? Or? Well she hasn't said. I expect next week when she's six till two, it's easier innit? And there won't be so many people about. Cos it's the last week this week isn't it? Well. Yeah. Couldn't go in, we can't can we, after. It's only then. Only employees. Ninth of December innit? So they'll have the run of the place then and then they'll be able to, be able to go in and out once they please I suppose. She's six till two as well next week so it's easier. Yeah. Girl asked her if she'd change shifts with her next Wednesday and she told her to go away politely. Yeah. No way. She wanted her to do a night and she said I'm not bloody doing a night and then back in here she said. She said what she said I'd have to stay all night and all day. . I'm not doing it, certainly not. You won't get nobody to change over with you now right up to Christmas will you? No, nobody wants to do that. No not now. Not this time of the year. So. I done Wh what I done plates of chips. Is she alright? Yeah she's not too bad. She's not my friend. Don't worry about it. She isn't your friend? Why not. Cos I told her. I said that phone bill's still in there waiting to be paid. Hasn't she paid it? No. She said I shall take it and pay it on Thursday. Don't worry about it. I said you just better. Ah she rang the bill up. Ninety eight pound. She rang the bill up with Julie. It was it wasn't me and Gwen. They're on there permanent. I calls her Beattie she ought to have the bleeding phone stuck to her earhole. Cos they don't realize how long they'm how long they'm on there. No. And she cannot get up without going on the phone. Oh. Gotta be on the phone all the bleeding time. taken over from . Taken over. Yeah. So she got well yeah she won't pay the bloody bill. Ours was a hundred and thirty five. Ooh. Oh Christ. Penny's was a hundred and twenty seven. She got a lodger and she, the lodger said she'd made five phone calls. And she said that's all she'd made was five phone calls. Well anyway there was two numbers there unaccounted for. So Penny rang those numbers to find out where it was and it was something to do with the council or something. And that was her phone calls as well the other girl had made. Anyway her husband's so bleeding dopey he said oh chuck two hundred quid down and we'll cry and quit. So of course the girl was laughing. How much was it? Hundred and twenty seven. And he chucked two hundred quid in? He said chuck two hundred down he said. That'll do for you for the lodger. And he'd bloody paid the rest. Silly sod. Twenty pound. She must've used more than that. Well he said give I twenty pound business people ? No. Ordinary people. Just ordinary young bloke . Mind you, he runs the skittles and he runs football and he does this and runs that. Oh yeah of course. And to think that calls was only tuppence for three minutes. They've gone up again haven't they Jan? They're not. Yeah. What the calls? Oh I shall bloody get a a minute now innit? thirty eight for two minutes innit? two minutes. Yeah but I mean you're on you . You don't realize I mean what's two minutes. No. Minutes is gone innit. Course it is. By the time you say hello. That's it. And I'm everlasting getting bloody ooh that phone getting on my nerves. I'm gonna write or Joe's gonna write to them. The mill. The mill. The mill. Ooh. We always get the erm We had them changed once cos there was so many damn Gate, Gate Bathrooms we are. Oh we has Hermitage Wine Company. Gate bathrooms all the time. But there's a st a stores before. Remember that store some something storage weren't it? That we had. Oh yeah. Oh. Cos they changed their line. They changed their number. It, it's just as bloody bad now. Terrible. That's it. It's absolute I gotta go. I've got to go up Asda. You don't wanna go up Asda? No thanks I've got to cook me dinner. I don't like Asda now. No I hate it now. I bloody hate it. We went up Friday. Now the bloody have you ever ? Think we'll have a suggestion box. They had a kids party, a game. Where the smokers' end is. Yeah. Now why do they have kids parties where there's smokers?smoking with children. Yeah but I wouldn't want a kids party round there with all that ooh bloody going on. Ooh it was terrible. The music was so loud I don't like Why don't they have it right down there at that end where there's no smoking and the little children would be right out of the way. Well yeah. They've got a room there haven't they they can have? But there's the bloody place and on a Friday night I thought ooh bloody . shop Sunday? No. I ain't shopping on a Sunday. But you don't need shopping on a Sunday do you? Well I wouldn't go to the shop on Sunday anyway. I just don't No I never. like shopping on Sundays . Nothing religious about it. No but it's Bu , I, it's a shame that I Six days shalt thou labour. The sh the shops that are shut on a Sunday and it's a day I think it's the lord's day and I'm not Well it's a day of rest. Yes it's a day of rest Not shopping. I I just don't I'd rather come and borrow. Say Bet I've gotta have some sugar. And I don't never do that cos I don't like doing it. But I would. Rather than go round the shops. Well yeah. I can't see no sense in it. No. I wouldn't go shopping on a Sunday. N , that is not on religious grounds either that is because I just think that they work six days they should have a day off anyway. That's bloody greed half of it. Oh unions split Sundays off. I think you can only spend your money once. Course you can. So if they're gonna go up there on a Sunday they ain't gonna go up there on another day. You can only Well spend your money once and that's it. So if you go Sundays you ain't gonna go Mondays or Tuesdays No. That's right. Yeah but it's a flash in the pan. It'll suddenly die down. They'll say well it ain't worth opening we . We ain't taking enough They're only gonna open four weeks before Christmas aren't they? Are they? Yeah Oh yes. It's only up to Christmas. Oh. Oh is it? Oh yeah Well Tescos took as much Sunday as they took . Because it's a new broom innit? Yeah New broom sweeps cleaner. Well they'll keep doing it. They'll keep on if they can. Yeah? But I mean these erm do it yourself places have been open for, well defied the law now for a long long time haven't they? I mean I know there's fireman, there's doctors, there's ambulances. All that's gotta th that is different innit? Well yes. etcetera gotta do Sundays haven't they? No I don't agree with that. No neither do I. I got off with a lot of things. I think I'm getting old and frumpy. Hark at her! Old and frumpy. You haven't got a mint have you? A mint? My mouth tastes horrible. No Do you know my mouth was like that the other week. And I only said to Joe yesterday Or, or a fruit drop or anything. It's horrible. Yeah, mine's terrible. Just anything. And then told me. She give me the name. Only a little bottle like that. It's not expensive. Just a, a mouthwash and that's done my trick. awful. Yeah. And I I, I did say to Bet oh my bleeding mouth I was gonna say. No. I've gotta chocolate. That my help. Well it might take the taste a little bit. I to Joe I said Do you want a chocolate? No thanks. They're nice nutty ones. No I don't like the nutties. Oh don't you. Do Joe like the nutties? Oh he ate them but I didn't like them very much. That's why he got them then. They're ninety two pence they are. But they're nice. Yeah. I had two Ninety p a bag? Mm. For a bag. Nice big bag, like that. You get a lot of they in the, with erm erm Roses. I like them. Roses. don't they? Ugh. Oh I couldn't eat chocolate in bed. Yeah. That's why I'll be bleeding coughing all night now. . See they're making you cough now . Hasn't swallowed the nut . Oh no. I do hate to cough. Now yesterday afternoon I said to our Joe I fancies a bit of chocolate. He said well buys you what you want. And I walked along back and front, back and front like that and I said oh I don't know. I don't know whether I wants it or no I said. So I said I'll have a couple of th they I said . And I said you gonna have any? He said no and I said there's some chocolate brazils there look Mm. Schlup. Course I, you won't get many to the quarter bag Bet. Well no but Anyway he said no. He said no. Yeah. Yeah he don't eat too many he likes he like they but he won't erm I had to say to him the other night. But I've been buying more icecream and that. Mhm And he likes a bit of icecream. Yeah I do. I likes a bit of icecream. I bought one this week. Haven't had it before. It's a bit, anyway it's a bit dear but ooh it was lovely. It's, it's erm is it a butter and erm whatsit one but you could taste the difference. And Joe said god this is different. Yeah and it was nice. Buy another one. Got such a lovely selection mind haven't they. chocolates now then? Well yeah I will, I'll have, yesterday No I mean . No. I haven't even had a chocolate. I haven't had nothing. Well he does. Not you. I'm asking her and asking her but, I said no I did say to Joe, I said Joe cos erm I said cos I, our Doreen said about it didn't she? Sh she rang up, she said erm thanks all the same but she said erm erm, I don't know who it is mind Bet, it's a man whoever it is. Ooh So she, he. I don't know what it is. So I said well that's nice. Oh well that's alright then so if you want anything perhaps she'll No oh no I won't I won't, no. No, no. Oh no. And then. But Joe see won't go over there. Mm. Well. Can't blame him can you? No. I mean Julie works out there and she rarely goes in there. She hates going in the shop. Well I've asked Julie I've asked Sally and they the . If it don't come I don't say oh where is it. I thinks oh well if they don't wanna bloody get it that's it ain't it? No I don't worry. I asked her to get some for erm the children. The children's coming up next weekend. And er she said oh she said don't worry about the kids. Leave it to me. So I thought oh well she'll get some next week. Or perhaps she'll get up market and that. Has she got my list? She must have . I've got nothing in our house. I haven't had none for weeks have I Bet?chocolate at all. I even come in to her one day to see if she had a bar of chocolate . Got any chocolate! She never bloody had none. Does she bring any Sally at all? Yeah she brings some sometimes. Ah. Sometimes. Like she'll bring or If there's anything going I suppose. or erm one of those bags you know with all the bits and bobs in Yeah she said she brought for him last week. But she don't bring like she did you know what I mean? But then they just say it's so crowded over there It's murder. It's crazy innit? I I say but I don't feel as I want to Last year this time Bet we nearly got killed . Can you remember? Yeah we queued queued to get in. And they'd let so many in at a time. So stupid weren't it? I said as Bet said they ought to have a one way over there that's what they ought to have. The only system's where everybody goes round And if they forgot something bad luck. Yeah too bad. Cos you go over there there's so many coming this way. Oh god I well I mean And bleeding baskets up the arse. Yeah. I mean okay people can't help that but I know they've got to have the basket. it's no pleasure is it? No Anyway. Got something nice for tea. I done some fresh plaice and some scallops dinner time Ooh. and I ain't kidding, I so enjoyed it and I said to Joe I wouldn't mind that for Christmas dinner I really enjoyed that. What was it you had? Had erm fresh plaice, scallops and peas. And I rea , bread and butter, cup of tea. I really enjoyed it. It was lovely. And that's it. And the plaice it was so ta , oh it w , I love plaice. he'd gotta have erm steak for his Christmas dinner. He said wonderful wonderful. I'm gonna have steak. I'm gonna have steak. Steak, mushrooms, chips, peas. Yeah I don't want. I don't want Steak and creamed potatoes and mushrooms , garden peas and side salad. That is what we're gonna have. I like it. I love it . There's only three of us having that cos our the girls are going out. Staying out all night they are. Where are they going to? Going over to some friends in Stockwood. What's the best way to cook steak then? What all day? In the oven very slow. All day, all day? All day and all night. They're not coming in till boxing night. Ooh great life innit? What do 'you do? Cover it or What do you do? C just put the . Don't cover it? You don't cover it. No. No I just put it go bang Yeah. both sides and I just lay it out. With a little drop of water it No fat? Just a tiny bit of it. Nothing Don't it, you don't What do you have sirloin or Well have the best best. Nothing but the best. I'm gonna find the steak with the yellow fat on the edge. The man told me on the telly that is the best so I likes them cut Yes. about three pounds only about that big if you buy a proper steak Fillet? Yeah. they'll eat you know. Well you want Well if you're gonna have meat, gotta have meat on your dinner. Our Clayton said Certainly I'm gonna do a, something for the next day. Cook it so as we can have it cold with salad or something. I, I don't want Whatever . I'm gonna cook it all Christmas eve. Out the bleeding way then I haven't got to If there was somewhere open nice we'd go out to dinner but the thing is nowhere open round here. Ooh we was gonna go Alacio weren't we? But our Joe don't. I don't think he fancies it. I suppose it's the look of the place is it? Yes. Bloody heavenly food up there. Up where? The Alacio in Kingsford. Oh yeah. Excellent. Is it? D'you reckon it is. It's dear. I'm gonna phone tonight and see. But it is lovely. Everything's eatable and it's all cooked and boiling hot and really nice. Service is excellent, really nice. Gets packed! Do it? Upstairs and down But they may be booked up for Christmas day. You've booked up? I said it could well be booked up. Oh it could be. It is absolutely lovely . I said to Joe only just last night we was chatting about it there. It's really nice. Yeah. But . I ain't bothered. . I'm sick of I don't, I just I don't want turkey or chicken. No. I done a great big chicken Sunday and it was a beauty. . But d'you know I, I didn't fancy it. I don't like chicken on my dinner any more. I no, I enjoyed it cold yesterday though. Got company Christmas day for lunch? Yeah. Houseful of people. Thirteen for lunch. Ooh Well lucky for some. Cor blimey Wait a minute. Let me see er four no twelve to lunch. Twelve Oh that's better. Make it a round figure, have twelve. Twelve. Oh my god. I used to years ago but I couldn't put up with it now. I couldn't put up with it now, no. Can't be bothered. And I've got sixteen to tea. But I'm having a rest boxing day. Going somewhere else? Huh no, well I'm staying home I hope. I thought you was going to Marion's this year? No. I said I wanted to have a rest. Hello Dave. Hello. I want a rest I said. Alright? Can you get in? He's playing up mind. Haven't had a shave. Have a bloody shave. Every time! I shall have a bleeding shave rash. Used to have a. I was gonna say I know! rash . Joe'll say where have you been. and can't shave. What are you moaning about now . Oh go and shave. Ugh. I get a rash there. What . On the dot your dinner's done. You know what er Wendy come Yeah. It's on about that? What is it? And it's called ooh . Begins with a s. I thought that's what bloody erm Wendy g What's it called sciatica? No it's, is, they What are Donna got. People thinks it's sciatica but it's in, begin with that but it's a funny name. And it's, this woman had it and it swells up, and it er. She said then it goes down well it did don't it?oh when I think of that name. Ooh. Mhm. right up to date. Oh god. What is it? I can't think of that name. No, no I can't think of it. But it's I'll leave you to talk to him a minute. I'll just see I don't want to talk to him. Oh talk to him a minute. No I don't want to talk. Oh then she come straight in and cornered the bloody paper. Bloody do don't she? So she said she's forgot the paper. .Yeah she come straight in. Cornered the paper. She never said hello or nothing. I thought told Bet I thought oh you ignorant bitch. She is. Yeah. I know she is. Then she sat there like that. Yeah she do. Like a lump of bloody lard. Oh god. Like a bloody lump of lard. Yes. She got twelve to dinner Christmas day and sixteen to tea. Don't know if she invited Bet and you I don't you, she didn't say. That'd be a bloody joke. She didn't say. I'll tell her. That's big pen where she get it from? Our Sally got them at erm Good innit? Oh they're nice. Where'd she get them from? At er We tried to get a rubber that rubs, rubs ink out but you can't get one very well can you? You don't very often I think you get them at, I think Asda got them like. when you're doing your puzzle you makes a mistake there you can rub it out. I . I think Julie went up, bought one up there. But I wouldn't ho honestly swear to it . Oh, have to see. Gone to Weston ain't she? Yeah gone to her Grans. Mm. Not a very nice day though is it? No but no, not, not actually gone to Weston. To the other side of Weston. Just outside, yeah. No I meant to say she's gone down that way ain't she Yes. Oh well. Her mother her and her her mother and her sister had to go up. Ooh well they're all gone are they? Yeah. Oh. That's alright. Dunno why but that's where they've gone. She's like two penn'orth of isn't she? Ooh I've got a terrible head, got a terrible cold. dropped us in the cart then by getting that with the chocolates in. No that's stupid. I was kicking your leg, did you feel me I thought oh He just borrowed one. What one of mine? Yeah. Only borrowed it. You bloody wrote all bloody mine. You and your bloody daughter. Yeah. How dare you take You had four, Sally had four. Oh four! You did! And then you give erm Graham back. Well I just saying I wouldn't have told you Shut the door Please it's cold. I said to, I said to him I won't tell her. Leave her alone. piss off. bored he's driving her mad. Shut the door! Well garden. Ooh . Pain in the arse he is. How she sat there. Yeah. God! I thought my bloody chair oh Yeah I thought ooh she's gonna break that chair. What a lovely way to sit. Yeah . She said I won't be able to take you out to to lunch till after Christmas time cos I'll be far too busy. As I ooh it's immaterial Well she got twenty four bleeding days. immaterial to me I said. Ooh my god I said to him I said she's got sixteen to tea I invited thee and Bet . Ooh the bloody erm W. I. innit or the church Religious innit ah yeah. Ah one or another. I thought she's m , most rude to sit like that She is rude. Got no manners. That is awful innit? I was gonna say to her ain't a chair big enough? Yeah I nearly Well I, I heard the chair go clk. I thought ooh the bottom of the chair. Worse than a child innit? If it was a child I'd say here you sit up properly. That's it sit up properly. I do to our kids if they lean back I says oi tip that chair on its legs. sit up properly. That's right. Like oh when she comes in I thought ooh her bleeding chocolate. Yeah. I got to tell bleeding lies cos I mean to say I know . I thought ooh my god. I mean David tore her list up. Nobody knows what she wanted. Ooh she says so you haven't had any chocolate. I said no I bloody haven't. No good girl. No. Ah she bought her chocolate . She gets her drinks from somewhere. Yeah course she do. I mean where do she get they from I'd like to know. Not here Bet seeing Sally won't get you anything d'you like to Yeah. Well course you would. Yeah. Now our Dawn told me cos I did say to her I said here I said er Bet did say that . Well she said, thank her, thank Bet ever so much she said Ooh. but she said erm ever so kind of her but she said er she did say who she said there was a friend of hers somebody Oh well good luck to her. and I thought ooh. But I, as soon I said to Joe dinner time I said well you'd be the first to say to her Yeah. well I'm going down there d'you want anything. Yeah. Oh Joe said well he said run a mile for her. Yeah. But you'd have thought she would have said wouldn't you? No she never. I mean she got a c , a card for well I am going to Macrows. But she's got a card for Macrows. Is that cheap then? Never once said would you like to come up Macrows. It's so cheap up there. Is it. Is it It's out at that way. I mean you've got to have a card. You can't go in without? Oh no you can't go in without a card. No, no, no. But I mean what you're paying say er ooh say my cheese is nearly five pound at bloody Asda pasdas, got it up there for about one fifty. Ever so cheap. Oh well you might as well go up there hadn't you? Of course. Ever so cheap and of course I haven't got a fridge I bought all their frozen stuff yeah. I'm blowed. Our Clay said somebody works there is it? They've got to have their card? It's Carol, Carol erm No I meant to say it's somebody that works there is it? Like No he works on the channel tunnel. But he just they give them out cards from Oh they give them out, oh. Yeah. And er he, he took our Clay up Sunday. And our Clay said he's gonna take me and his mother-in, well future mother-in-law out next Saturday. Oh. So he said get some money up together mum. I said well I'll have what I find Yeah. He said don't worry about it. Be alright. He said I'm going out again with him and gonna get you, you and dad's cigarettes and Well if it's cheap place where our Maureen. We'd go in ooh massive Ginormous place innit? And she had to sign in about a card and that sort of Mm And it's ever so cheap there cos she bought me a, I can remember erm I wanted a curtain thing you know, big long one with the hooks and that. Yeah. And it,had it for one twenty five. I mean back here. I can remember . And it load your trolley. You know you load your trolley up then, you have to take a trolley round like. Oh like a supermarket. Of course yeah. Because they have a lot, yeah, they have, yeah have a lot like. Well yeah I suppose you buy in bulk don't you. Yeah. She'd buy it by the bulk yeah. It's good though isn't it? Yeah. Save money. Yeah. Oh our Clayton said, said don't get your stuff up Asda, he said just keep, hang on to your grocery money Yeah and get it up there yeah. So I thought well that's alright then. See you'll be able to get your Christmas cheese and all the bits and bobs. All that yeah, yeah. He said there was so much stuff up there I couldn't reel off what they've got because he said they got everything. Yeah, yeah got everything. So I said to him well mammy wants a freezer he said oh shut your mouth I'm not getting you one. Have one for Easter. Well perhaps he's buying a bleeding washing machine Dishwasher I said. Dishwasher or That'll be the year innit ? When we got all what we want, that'll be never. Never got everything you want have you? No, no. You could go on and on couldn't you? I thought that bedding was cheap she bought down town yesterday didn't you? Yeah but that, what she bought the girls'll be very thin when she got it on. But still it serves the purpose don't it. don't think Yeah, no but I mean it's alright for the . I thought that was nice for the boys. Yeah that was quite nice. That was cheap. Yeah they was alright. erm think Why's she gone out to today for then? She went out and bought all her erm tut Christmas cereals, coffee and tea bags and er Ooh. Although she she spend her money Oh bloody and all sorts she buys. I said what you want ? She said well they're always handy. And erm washing powder and soaps and toothpaste Yeah well she's got the money there she might as well spend it hadn't she? God. She said I got everything in now for Christmas. Well Joe says we has our ten pound next week. This week innit? Not this week Yeah it is. Oh next week Well Iris said this week I don't know when it is but Yeah, no I think that's right. Cos Joe said your, that's right it must be this, I said it ain't so early as that. He said yeah. I said oh I didn't know that. Oh that's tomorrow then innit? Obviously for us For you, yeah. Thursday for him. He generally gets anyway. . He said oh he said I'll have that he said get some Sweets and chocolate. We got a whole load like that in a bag for the kids. ooh dear. But he's gonna get some more he said. I thought well keep them quiet. Oh I didn't know he had it so early I always thought it was the week before. Cos really that'd pay for the girls' nightshirts . . It's disgusting. Yeah. Really is. Where's the electric man? I wish he'd hurry up and give us it. Yeah I'm go , I'm, old Joe reckons it'll be a whatsit one. Ooh. He said I think, cos he said, the bill come in just with the gas last time. Near enough with the gas last time. He reckon it'll be a whatsit one. Oh I hope not. Weren't it an estimate last time? I don't know. Or did we have a reader? No we had the reader last time didn't we, yeah. We had a nice young man come round Yeah we had I'm not sure. Oh not a damn And old Joe said he said I reckon it's a be a whatsit. On the other hand it might not. Our Pam said he hadn't been there so. I mean he's usually after the gas man isn't he? He follows it all round don't he? Yeah. Yeah. Oh bloody hell don't say that. I hates that not knowing. Yeah but still it might be less it might be more. You don't know do you? Ooh. So don't worry about it. said to our Joe, I I did believe, I mean I I, well I said innit? Well yeah but, cos I mean I'd left it on all night before. And we've had it on every, well you know we have. I've had a radiator on in the hallway. I've had a radiator on in the front room. Well same as our Pam said well mum you ain't using no more gas it's silly . Well no with the radiators on. It's the, well you've got the water on That's it. It's all running off the same gas. Yeah. Erm. No I don't I don't know why, I have, we don't have our fire on mind. No we don't have the fire on. Well no. Well he don't go in there. If it's anybody it's I. If I goes in Well there's no need of it if you got your radiator on. Yeah. Mind if I goes in there like, sometimes over the weekend if he's watching football. And I'm sat there, think to myself put the bloody fire on, put your feet up. I do do that for Well that's it. I don't tell him, although he doesn't mind. it's cold innit? worry about it. You can't be cold. Don't do what David's mother and father and bloody freeze to death. No . Fancy she coming in today. She looks half dead don't she? Her eyes. Yeah. the whites of her eyes goes don't it? I know what's the matter with her? I don't know. She looks like somebody got her bloody in a trance. Yeah. I thought she was gonna go bleeding sleep on that chair. Yeah. her eyes. Her eyeballs It's all that shit and junk she takes and all they fucking pills. Well she looks she looks druggy don't she? Yeah. She looks druggy. She takes all these vitamin pills and god knows what else. And herbal mixtures and all that. Mm. They don't do her no good. No . Bloody fool ain't she? I mean she does bugger all at home. Aye you're right. Don't know how many ti times a week, I meant to ask her does she go to that man now. That's why she's bloody fat and bloody flabby innit? Yeah. I mean I don't bloody but. Well no nor do I don't whiz about I'd like to see her going upstairs. I bet Oh my goodness. And her stairs are so steep Oh god. Yeah cos they have to sort of bring the staircases, cos they built all that on didn't didn't they I think she's so rude. I can't, I mean alright Well she is rude. I'll speak to her but I can't say, I couldn't take to her. Couldn't have her as a neighbour. Ooh Ooh I couldn't do that! Nor I. me. Well that lady don't bother with her next door down there. Doesn't she? Got a bloody great fence up. Oh! Just as well the hint, yeah. Oh, oh dear. Got a lovely place there but is she sort of Yeah but they the sort of people that don't. Oh it's lovely. I mean got lovely places they don't do they? No. They just takes it in their stride. funny innit? I mean she got that bloody great well all that is glass across there, it's all Bet she cleans it every day don't you. It's absolutely . She she could have that spotless couldn't she? Old man takes his bloody dinner in there. Sits in his easy chair with his feet up with his tray. Yeah. Well yeah. But she looked a bloody sight in dress. All that money. There's a bleeding sight yeah. as big round as my body nearly. Didn't she Wears the wrong clothes as well doesn't she? her clothes she got bloody, well. Hangs on her don't it? Well she new clothes can she? Well. She could get, and they bloody old boots, shoes she got on. Ooh I tell her, I says to her pop down to Wallis's. yeah. I mean Wallis's is fairly yeah It's for the bigger lady and Yeah there's the others erm what was it, I was gonna look for and I turned bloody on whatever his bleeding name is. They had erm clothes show for the the fuller ladies this morning. Ooh. I was gonna look at that and I forgot it. But you can get some lovely clothes. Yeah. There ain't no bloody need for her to be, and not with the money. She got the money. Yeah. I mean you and I But it looks as if it looks as though she stands there and something just drops Yeah. She ain't got a bit of style has she? I wonder what her underclothes is like. Well there's knickers, there's bloomers . Yeah, blowing in the breeze. Bloody hell. Yeah. I mean she could have it all couldn't she? She got the money there, why in the hell don't she sort herself out. I mean very smart. yeah. Yeah. But I mean to say you sees these big ladies, well I've seen them on their Smart and together yeah. Mm . Mind I'll tell you honest she asked , fat lady this take your troubles to her I forget her bleeding name. Clare Raynor. Clare Raynor. Mind she did look nice. She looked ever so smart and I thought well That's it. Got the money. Why not use it. Make yourself, make the most of yourself? Yeah. Yeah cos I looked in ours and I said to our Joe I'd like a nice dress. Oh well get, have a bloody dress if you want one. And I was looking and they'd got red, black in one window. Red and yellow one. And er they've got another one I think that's dark colours. But I said oh that's nice innit and it was, a what was it jumper and like for Christmassy like a silver Mm. Long sort of yeah. Like a long yeah. And it was ever so. And I said that's nice innit well, he said well have them if you want it. I said it's a lot of money innit? He said well it ain't if you, if it's a thing you want it ain't is it. Well it's only thirty five pound for a jumper with a top. No. Ah yeah but I mean I ain't wearing again would I after Christmas, no. Go for it. Have it. Why not treat yourself. They had a nice top there that, they had a nice top there I liked, red. He was nice but it was thirty five . Oh I dunno. Wouldn't wear it after would you? That's the thing. Are you gonna wear it after. But she, she could bleeding dress up to the nines. I likes a nice pair of shoes on if, if I go out. I likes a nice tidy pair of shoe , anywhere special . Yeah, nice tidy pair. If your hair's tidy yes. Nice yes. Well you got to have tidy feet haven't you. If your hair's tidy and your feet's tidy. That's everything. Cos I nearly thought to myself shall I have a wash and set for Christmas. Cos up in the, the erm paper shop they got somebody in and she does it like special for p for pensioners. I thought to myself shall I go . I thought oh I can do my own if I rolls it up Oh you can do your own. Once I have to do it. If I can, if I just wanted, wanted to go round, go round. Going down Pamela's? No. I sh , I shan't go. You're not. Definitely not? Well things haven't altered have they? I mean I had that go with her. She couldn't have said nothing to our if she did I should have thought well alright our nan said I must bloody go up but she didn't come up Sunday. She was down there. Oh she was there was she? Yeah I s , cos I seen the car. Course she said she was there. Oh course And she said that yeah. Yeah. I don't know. I said, well I did say to her this morning I said there's a some for the baby and some bits of chocolate. Oh she said I'll be going up tomorrow but I, I, I can't ask her,I didn't ought to but I can't can't ask her nothing, innit funny. Don't know why. I said well I said I don't know if they're alright for her cos I haven't seen her so I can't tell. Yeah. But see I don't know Bet. It'll, it will hurt me. But I, I daren't sort of do nothing cos that's gonna upset our Joe if I do. But I, might not be there all th ,might not be there. No, I suppose it is. Sunday's just the same thinking and wondering. Mm, yeah. It's just not right. But then she, well she's stubborn isn't So just treat it like a Sunday. If they don't come Sundays bollocks I said to Joe I said I'd enjoy that Christmas day Joe. He said so I so he said it's nice. Ah. He said. And I, I might cook a dinner and think oh I don't want it. lovely. It really was it was lovely that dinner. Ah. When you know they're down there Sundays. They don't bleeding bother to come up so it's only like a Sunday innit? Yeah. Innit? I, I, I shall feel awful though. Well I, well Joe said I . I couldn't understand him really saying that. And so I said well Well he hasn't done nothing wrong No anybody speaks . I mean there's Terry, we haven't spotted. It's awful you sit and think about it. Yeah. I said to our Pam, Terry hasn't looked in the bloody door. Not as we seen him a lot but least he could come and say alright. How are your keeping now. Mm. Anyway say oh poor bugger . And he'll go to him and he's say ah. Bloody come in here poor buggering me! Still it's your daughter. If she's invited you to her house that's up to you innit? Yeah but I yeah but I still I don't know. I mean, the baby won't know us anyway. Won't she. No. No. She just won't will she? Now they forget so fast don't they? Yeah. Well look at our Sophie she but she don't know you now. No and yet she she run to, course she seen break. But I could go up in a few weeks . There's Maggie. Oh here's Maggie. Alright? Alright my love. Maggie with the fringe on top. How's your ma? Alright I suppose. Just saying I thought she was coming home? No I was just saying She was supposed to be out Monday. not coming home. She's not very well is she? across there. yeah I think so. motorbike yeah. How, how is she anyway? She's fine in herself. They're all flapping round her cos her temperature keeps going up and down like a bloody yo yo. Ooh. What's that? Cos she's had the injections is it? Been on the drip all night she's got an infection Oh on a drip. Hello Hello Alright? Mhm. Her stomach's right up. . Can't understand why Do they know then? What it is? Strange innit? Innit. D'you have a nice time? She took us everywhere. All round the shops. small items. Ah well then. That's Nan's innit? Is the tide in down there? Don't know never front. Ah. Was she pleased to see you? Yeah. Ooh. What time are you going out there tonight? Are we still going? If you want to. Cos I ain't getting anything. No. Well what time are you going? What time have you got to be there? Well it's from six thirty till nine. Six thirty to nine? Yeah. It's purely up to you. He don't mind and well down town innit? Yeah well we, if we go it's gonna take us hour to get bloody down there and back on the bus innit? Oh I love buses . Bloody nuisance innit? Mind you perhaps erm Chris take them one way and Clay the other? Ask him when he comes in. Yeah. Could do. Otherwise it means Chris got to hang about till we're ready to come out That's it. It's stupid innit? That's if Clay don't. I reckon people's conversations ought to be bleeding private not on bloody tape Yeah and I'm right with you er Maggie. I'm sorry about this. Maggie! I'm gonna whip the ruddy tape and wipe the bugger clean. Listen we don't swear it's Betty innit? We're safe anyway Oh yes. Got nothing to worry about. Cheers. Bye Mags. Bye Mags. I couldn't smell they chops then? Well they been in there since two o'clock. But they're not cooking very well. But they're not cooking very well. They're on too low. I put them on ever so low. Yeah. Not it is nice though innit? Oh it's like mud innit? Do you want boiled potatoes or not? Or roast? What? No you don't want to. Of course you don't. It's bad for you Dave. Boiled or roast? roast. Yeah but he likes boiled I bought of these scallops up there this week Bet. They were cheap. Yeah what were they like then? Bloody lovely. It's not, they ain't battered or nothing but it's just, ooh they're beautiful they Are they? Yeah. And they about eighty nine, eighty something. They're lovely. They're really nice. Not the battered ones, they're not very nice. Just when you open it it's just nice scallops. And they went golden brown, they was bloody lovely. brown ? Yeah br , some went black. I kept them on a bit too long. Yeah but they were really nice. I say I don't like the others now. They go greasy your battered scallops. eat that. It's very bad for you. I used to do a lot for Joe but I don't do them now. Not good for you. Oh dear. Oh I shall be glad when the bloody weather . If it snowed it'd be a bit whiter, bit whiter. Yeah it would be. Snowed. What did your mother have to say then Julie? Oh not a lot. Not really. Many shopping down there? No. Closed. Suppose they go down there weekends look. they've opened Sunday I expect. I don't know where the people are getting their money from. Who drove, Karen? No she can't drive. It was our mum. Oh can't she? No. Oh your mother did the driving. Mm. Was she surprised to see you then, when she Yeah. got there. Yeah. Yeah cos Auntie Carol never told her. Father was cussing cos you weren't here. Oh ah. Said where's she to. That's it. He come in last night and you weren't here. Come in today, you weren't here. Tough, innit. Gallivanting about. I can see my dad any time, I can't see my nan any time. . When you see him. Can you get me out the Oh Ju What's it you want? The milk? What do you want Ju? No I never. But I need it as well. For tonight. What do you want? What do you want? Erm marge please. The marge. Oh ah you need your car for tonight. Whereabouts is the marge Bet? It's up in the cupboard. What cupboard? Oh it's in the cupboard. Oh up there. bloody cupboard . Dawn used it look, she put it up in the cupboard. Go in to dinner today? Can't you use erm Sally's car tonight Julie? Well I don't know. I don't suppose they'll take the names as long as you've got a card to show, will they? Cos I'm hoping, our Clay, she said he'll be in about six, half past. So I'm hoping then he'll be in before you go out. Cos he I hope he ain't le left the card in bloody Lee's car. So do I. said nothing last night, seeing him never give it me back. I said to him, I said put Julie's card in the middle thingie there with Sally's. He said yeah alright mum and that was the end of that. He put your name on it.? No What Sally's Yeah well I expect he'll ring on Sally's on yours. No, it was Sally's. See he should have put it straight back in there when he come in. Stupid person. Now he won't be able to have them again will he if he's gonna bleeding muck about and act stupid. where it is. Well he won't be able to after this week anyway. No. Well I never thought he'd take it out and put it in in the drawer. In the front room, he might have. Knowing him I expect he's still got it in his pocket. I don't know what pocket he would have put it in then cos it weren't in his coat pocket. Oh Silly man. Oh he's a bloody idiot. . He don't stop and think that's the trouble. Hope dopey Lee never went home with it. He better not have. scissors. Yeah Julie got them. Did she? Bit awkward now innit? Veronica came here. Was looking at the papers come straight in and Eh? She's so rude. All these papers seem thin today. They are thin, yeah today. newspaper. Oh bug! Our is gone quiet. Yeah. How many Funny, all different papers, all different news. said to ju- erm Sally get my stuff? I said no not yet. Perhaps she'll get it next week said yeah. Yeah . Liar. crisps. I'll have to remind her. I wants two lots. Salt and vinegar and ready salted. Well Clayton have you asked him? I asked him once and he said yeah but Ah well he forgets don't he? Oh my god his mind's like a sieve. I, I'll write on his forehead. Yeah so every time he looks in the mirror he'll know Good ideal that. How would you spend your last day on earth? Get pissed. God, get pissed shouting legs up, kicking the legs up and laughing. What am I looking for? Oh a tin of peas! I knew I was looking for something. You're getting on a bit. Oh my goodness. Ooh ooh, where are they? Come on. I think I'm gonna prawn cocktails first for Christmas day. I loves a prawn cocktail. And do. She likes prawn cocktails. Asda's prices. Icecream Christmas puddings, have you ever heard of that? Don't like the sound of that. Two ninety nine. Whoever's thought that up. Look make icecream cake Oh yeah icecream cake's lovely. I've never made one. Ooh we have birthday cakes for the kids, icecream cakes. Do you? When they was little, yes. icecream Christmas puddings. . Dave, see if the saucepan lid's down in the with the plates please. It's gone on walkies. Yeah it is. C and A. Oh I haven't been in there for years, not C and A. Got some lovely clothes in there. Have they? Well I haven't been in there for years mind but when, the last time I went in there the clothes was lovely. I ain't got no inclination to go down the town No. If I had, well a few hundred maybe. Don't like it in there these days do you? No I don't like the town at all. No. I like to go to Bath. It's nice at Bath. Oh it's just as bloody bad there. after having a flu jab. Ooh goodness. Ooh he was only twenty six. Oh my goodness. Giving him a sneezing fit. He said oh shit and he died. That's it then. Well he shouldn't have opened his gob and said it should he? There was no asthma attack, no cry or gasp of pain. He just said oh shit. oh shit! Bleeding hell. And he suffered two heavy sneezing fits earlier in the day. And then what? He went and had his jab did he? Well only been married eight months, had a little baby. Oh no Oh do me a favour Dave. What's that? Reach the Paxo from up the top, Julie put it up the top. If there's a single one I'll have that one, if there isn't I'll have to open a double. Sage and onion stuffing? Yeah that'll do. didn't seem very concerned did she? No she seemed a bit Yeah Don't know how she seemed, do you? Well I mean I don't , well I've never I think 's holding that hat on. I can't, I can't look at him. Disgusting innit? Horrible isn't he? Ugh. Really ugh. Well if he's going out and she's going out, who's gonna look after the children? . Oh I don't know. They'll take them I suppose. No she said, no she ain't taking the kids. I expect they'll . Looks as though he's arranged to go out. Yeah. I dunno. Lot of them are being sacked off the bloody telly innit? Yeah. watching that. What they say, thirteen have got to go. Was it thirteen? From I T V or somewhere? It's more than that. Actress Jan Francis is on till twelve o'clock again. That's on till twelve o'clock. Oh, that programme we seen last night is on till ten to twelve. What the film? Is it? What time's it start? Is it ten o'clock? Ten? Ten till twelve. Oh ten. That's alright. Jan Francis with that Dennis Waterman show. Stay Lucky. Yeah. Ooh. Ridiculous. That David got that front room on the show, or was it? She makes a string of money from bloody Lloyds Bank adverts. Yeah that erm chap isn't on there now with her is he? What Dennis Waterman? No, no on those adverts. Oh not on that advert. Er charmer. Nigel Havers. No He isn't on there any more. No, no. I don't like that other one, er I don't like Waterman. I don't like Waterman either. I w , but I liked him in that one on a Friday night. Yeah, Minder. No. No? Don't like Minder. Erm what was it called? He was he had a lot of money. and he was having trouble with the wife weren't he secretary. Yeah, yeah. That's right. Mm can't think what it was called. What was that called? Ooh what was it called? Do you know I don't like, don't like that Minder. I don't like that old chap in it. don't like that George Cole either. No, no . That George Cole, er Arthur Daley. He used to go out with Wendy's Auntie June. Did he? Yeah. Years ago mind. Don't know whether to get me washing in or not. What do you reckon? Well I was going to put mine out and I thought it's too wet. No don't put it out. So. I think, put the clothes horse out for now. Clothes horse But sometimes it dries in the evening. Yeah but not wool. I think I'll go and get it in, put it on the horse in the passage. Oh are you going? Yeah. Well I'll get that in before it gets dark. Wednesday innit, tomorrow. Wednesday tomorrow. Yeah. All day. quick again innit? It's gonna be bloody Christmas before we know were we are. Yeah. Never mind Bet! We knows all what we gotta do. That's the main thing. Hang your stocking up, hope for the best. Stocking up! You never know what you're gonna get in there do you? Oh the path is drying a I dunno Yeah, there's something falling there . Is there? There's something you feel. hamper. Oh yeah I can feel it now. I got come and have a look at it. Cos I've got it in this cupboard. Excuse me a minute David please thank you very much. Oh no don't move him. Yeah well he gotta move. Well don't move him. Oh innit sad. See it got all marked down there. Ooh ooh. Bloody hell. Which is quite a lot Yeah! in that cupboard out there. You daren't touch it. In the cloakroom . In the cloakroom. cloakroom. You want that wall down at the back, it'll go back further . Got all the biscuits and all that in there. Lovely. That's all their booze in there. Ooh ah. That ain't too bad then Bet is it? Mm quite a few bob's worth of booze there. Yeah biscuit. Yeah. That's what I said to him. Lovely. I know. The only thing we didn't like in there was two tins of tuna fish. No I don't like tuna fish. Erm And lemon. Lemon cheese. Oh and a lemon cheese, I give it to And two tins of soup. erm soup Oh game soup. Cock a leekie or something. Oh cock a leekie oh! cockroaches in it. Yeah I've given it to Wendy for the kids. kids. And the girls said. Here dad what does this say on here? So he said cock a leekie. So they said well what is it? Cockroaches. He said it's a couple of cocks and a few leeks chucked in. See you in the morning. He did. She said the girls they just stood there and they didn't know what to say to him. . See you again in the morning cocks. All being well Betty. Right. tomorrow Oh no it's only we innit. See you in the morning then. Bye Dave. Cheerio. Cheerio. Bye googie woogs. Vietnam in here. Good morning Vietnam. . You ain't got your glasses. My glasses are here. Fucking useless nowadays trying to find anything in these books. Crazy innit? come here. David knows where it is. Got the councils. B C D E F G H I J K L M N O P P A's P O's don't you? Yeah. Erm P I's, P R's P O Police. Police. Avon and Somerset constabulary blah blah blah. Small print blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. Bristol. Yeah? . Oh so it's Got bloody Filton, Keysham, Kingsford, Radstock, Thornbury. Everything but Southmead. Bloody marvellous. Bath Somerset constabulary. Police. see our page for advertisement . There he is. Where do I have to Southmead. . In the case of specific requests please ring the appropriate number below between eight o'clock in the morning and six o'clock at night . No Southmead No Southmead in here. Get on to Filton and ask Filton to give you Southmead's number. Or to have them put you through to F er to Southmead. Okay. Or Kingswood. Say you're the nearest I can find in the book, Filton I should try. Filton's next to Southmead innit? Mm. Any other police station should have one anothers numbers. Or K Kingswood cos that's her local station innit? Yeah but it's better to get in contact with Southmead if you can. Mm. Here Ta And don't go swearing for goodness sake. Clayton home late last night and I thought he must be taking Lorraine home. Did he? Yeah . She come and knocked on the door so he Of course I heard a car. And then I thought oh that's Clayton coming in as well and then I thought no it isn't, he's going out and I heard him go out. Thought he must be taking Lorraine home this time of night. Yeah she come to the door answered the door Oh hello he said. What do you want. So she said, well Clayton. So he said oh I'm ever so sorry he said he's gone out. So she said gone out, where's he gone? He said I don't know, he says he's gone out with some girl called . Don't know where they are. shout Well she don't own him. That's right. Ring up Clayton. Ask him to ask Simon To phone you here now. To phone here now It's . Like he sold it because he had a producer Yeah well we know, we know he had a producer. It couldn't have been though, could it? He obviously didn't stop. speaking on phone Yeah can I speak to Clayton person he sold to. that person oh my god . They had the log book anyway. They should have changed it over. We gotta do things like that. Got receipt for it Sally? Yeah but I never sold it to Simon. I sold it to Lee. Sorry? Lee was the one who sold to Simon. Thank you I wonder where those two police officers came from that came here that day. They didn't say their names did they as well. Oh I dunno. Can't remember. They were quite satisfied. Hello Clayton it's Sally. Hello. Erm you don't happen to have Simon about there do you? You don't happen to have Simon about there do you? Yeah, right. Well Julie's just had a letter from the police. And they're doing her for a road traffic accident at Morrow Road when Simon the bike. This last month. Yes. When Simon the bike. March. No November! November! The accident was November. Sorry, November. The accident was November. No, just gone. November now just Just gone. It happened on the twenty second of the eleventh ninety one. So whoever got the bike now still haven't changed the log book over to their name. Yeah. So no, so we got to find that off Simon now, who he sold the bike to. Alright He's gonna have to sort it out and ring you back tell him. He's sorting it out. He's getting it now. Cos I can't put Simon's name down on that bottom of the form. I gotta put Lee's cos that's who I sold it to. have that accident. . Failing to stop, tell him. Well apparently he's sold it so maybe the ne . police. can have that. He had to sign for it. Don't worry about it. It's better, it's got to get sorted out though Oh yeah. hasn't it? Got that letter? Otherwise they'll be coming for a warrant for me. What? Tell him to give it to you. Because we gotta send this letter off now to the police station. We're gonna ring the police now and explain to them. We don't own the bike. Apparently he's O K then? Yeah. Four o'clock's yeah get, get Simon's name and address And Lee's. And Lee's. Because I sold it to him first. Cos we sold it to Lee first. We never give him a receipt. Cos he didn't want one. Alright then. So you want Lee's address Oh well Lee's not in any trouble anyway. and telephone number. And surname. And so with Simon's. Okay then? Who? Yeah. Right well I ain't actually Simon. Cos the police will want to know from when Simon sold the bike to this other kiddie who had the accident. Okay then? Okay ta ta. Bye. What did he say? He's gonna find out. He's got to, Simon's got the name and address of the kiddie he sold the bike to. And he's gonna give it to Clayton. He's also gonna get Simon's name and address. Clayton's Lee's address is in the telephone book under his surname anyway. . So he's gonna sort Our, our mother's name's . Also he's gonna sort that out and he's gonna get on to the police station now to explain that you don't own the bike. So they've sold it on again them two have they? Yeah. They've sold it on Oh so it isn't them two. Well So he says. Simon sold it on when he had that accident. Remember? Simon had an accident didn't he? Well yes He come off the bike. Well Lee come off the bike said the bike was too powerful. Then Simon had the bike and he had accident. He fell off then and he said that's it I ain't have it no more. So he sold it on to a this kid and it was up Baxters Ah! I think it should have stayed here I think. I don't think it wanted to go, do you? No. It wanted to stay in it's own house. It's got the jinx, that bike. It didn't never have a jinx when I had it. Did you find police station . No. No. He had to ring up that and it gives you all the phone numbers of all the police stations in Bristol. Right, what's the phone number again? They know about it anyway. ask them for the phone number of Southmead police station and they'll give it to you. It says on there it says Bristol, all police stations area. In like area . Do you do the washing? It were beginning of the year since that bike cos February March sold it. too well. I think that bike don't wanna go out of this, go away from this house, do you? Never had an accident on it. I just fell off it once but that was outside wasn't it? Is anyone going outside? No? Daddy. I want some teabags get me some please. Talk to him nicely and he'll get you some. David please will you get me some teabags if they've got any? I'd better have about three cos half the time they haven't bloody got them up there Yeah but what if they ain't got the red ones and they've only got . Don't what them. rubbish. Don't want that rubbish. I don't know what the other ones are like in the bags. No I won't bother. Just have, just have the red ones otherwise don't bother. Well for eighty teabags Typhoo one fifty six it is in the shop. And that was in a cheap shop that was down Weston. anything to tell me. I've a letter here. Oh I hate the police. isn't it? I've never been in trouble with police. Touch wood! Touch wood. Never. I've never got stopped on a bike. Which I don't care if I get stopped on that cos I am fully legal. Oh well. You've got no worries have you?naughty girl have you? . Touch wood. Touch wood. No. Once. What did he pinch? Listen I told you cos he never . Oh! I bet she have. she have. Pinching the biscuits Yeah Eh? Ten years old, pinching the biscuits. Ten years old. Pinching the biscuits. Well she didn't pinch them but she ate them. Oh come on. bloody frighten her to death. Clayton pinched the bloody gate and your lighter didn't he? And the veg up the garden. That's what you look at, back on really that's funny innit? But at the time it's really, really serious. No. She stayed up the police station all day. She wouldn't even give her name. Ten years old. She knew already then. Wasn't me who pinched anything. Wasn't her. Well she was Yeah but. Cos they're with someone. That's what I always say to mine. Two little buggers wasn't it? Little swines weren't they? So I'm gonna say that to the kids. If you're with someone that pinches you're a girl you just walk away. That's it. But if they get arrested it's down to you. You're the innocent bystanders but if they tighten things up. take their time. Should put the phone down and try again. No cos it'll be engaged again. Yeah. It won't cost until they answer. It won't cost you anything. Wendy. There's a smoke in there and it's unopened . There should be anyway. Yeah. I don't know what to do for tea. It get's like that every night now don't it? I just don't know what to do. I've got no idea. None whatsoever. That bit will have to stay out. Yours blooming done? Yeah. I'm gonna put mine out. I reckon. No- one in. I reckon the desk sergeant isn't there. Bet he said bugger them I'm gonna have my coffee. It's his coffee break. Southmead are quite good actually. I've had dealing with them before. Oh yeah. . Cos that's er , they do as well. That was simple Oh after all that. Simple. Right. Fill out part B, explain you don't own the bike. You haven't owned it for over a year. You can't remember the exact date etcetera etcetera etcetera. And who you sold it to. Bullshit bullshit bullshit Yep. Yeah. She just puts March ninety eight and then leave it at that. Yeah. What about April Julie? Cos you couldn't remember if it was March or April if you remember on that M O T certificate. Oh well. It doesn't matter. Which cup's mine? The one in the blue? I thought they sorted it out Granddad! Is this one mine? The pink one. Thank you. Shut up will you. That's nice innit? Can't be brain dead That's what I mean, that's why she's brain dead innit? Oh that's nice innit Julie! I'll get him back Get him back. Ooh! just now. walk around with that bag all the time do you? I'm freezing. You cold? It is cold. Oh I'm lovely and warm, I'm frozen . I'm frozen . Oh you're nice and warm. I'm bloody freezing. I don't care. I'd go to court to stick up for myself. Besides anyway I don't even know Betty got I virtually One of the girls might treat you? To a perm. Yeah but it's, you sh innit? Anybody, anybody gonna treat her to a perm three pound? A what? Perm. It's five pound altogether. Five pound. No answer she's got it all on tape. Oh! She's got the bleeding tape on again. Sally volunteered didn't you Sal? No. Christmas tree . One pound fifty nine it was. Christmas tree? Yeah Christmas tree. And it's that big. Oh my god really nice. I keep forgetting that bloody tape's on. One fifty nine. decorations. They were expensive down Woolworths but they were nice. quality. Oh James Yes Julie was telling me last night. James. Sharon's fellow James. You don't know him he's in the army. Got pictures of him though. You've seen him here. worked for Wimpey. Oh Wimpey. He's gone a bit podgy in the face. Has he? Definitely, yeah. He said he was coming out though didn't he Yeah but he had to come out You haven't pinched my fags have you? No I haven't I just thought I'm sure I had more than that. I haven't pinched your fags love. He's laughing. I wonder if you'll hear, er get a phone call this morning. I kept biting the biting the sellotape off last night. I said to your mum I haven't got I must have cut something and I'm pshht the blood went everywhere all I wonder if What're you laughing at Bet? send him that back. I won't hear any more about that bloody Look! Posh or what! Mhm. Very funny. He's gonna get me something else for Christmas day. I've got him a wax coat. What, one of them ones? Twenty quid. He's getting her a book. Yeah that's cheap innit? Getting her a book that shows you how to tell the time . They used to be bloody thirty odd quid, forty odd quid. You get them on the market for seventeen ninety nine . Nineteen ninety nine I paid. What is it? A wax one you got him with wax on you got one of them. Why? You'd have got one with, without the wax, the waterproof one. They wax one gets on all the clothes. That wax. Yeah it does. Gets on all the clothes. That's horrible. Our Ashley had a wax jacket Yeah he did. didn't he? It's got on all the girls' sch sch school stuff. No I honestly think you had the waterproof. I don't think you had the wax. Didn't I? Felt waxy though. Yeah but it feels waxy, that's the waterproof but you can see the wax. Chuck it. bleeding horrible. He likes it anyway. He's parading up and down in it. Don't get the wax one . Gets on all your clothes and everything. And stuff that's white it stains. He bought the girls a bloody great not, well it's like that sort of thing but it's a big one. Now what thing we looking at Oh yeah thank you. And they're about that big and it's that long. And it can take,ta No not a . Like they used to have years ago. You used to have one didn't you? Years ago. Well I was thinking, yeah cos I Radio cassette sort of thing Yeah yeah but it's a bloody great big one. He bought it for twenty five quid. It's only a year old. That's alright then. But they're . I think it's a Sony or something. They're bloody Cos you could, you don't have to have a tape recorder. Like a thing. It's got built in tape recorders or something? Built in mike microphone Why away? Might have been the mike. Microphone isn't it. They're taking it away so was doing a tape for grandma and granddad and Keith was going, he was going hello grandma and granddad it's Kenny you know like the three of them and he was going, whoop whoop whoop oh da! And it would start again and they were singing all lovely and they'd get half way through the tape and he was going yeow yeow. He was doing it all the while and they went Keith! And then they was eating their supper so just want another piece of bread, and they'd nearly finished the tape. And he went . Oh! Goodbye he was going and don't say that . And he had to say something on the bloody tape didn't he? Where's me fucking presents he was going, you bastard! Oh my god. The kid was going mental. He was jumping up and down and going . Typical innit? Oh dear. Bloody typical bloke that is. Have you hid all that booze? Yeah. It's down here and in there. Good. Don't put it No that's what I said, we moved bloody sees it. Yeah. He said they'll think it's a hamper then,know it is a bloody hamper when they see the food about. So have to hide it up in the wardrobe. Stick it down with sellotape so no bugger can't open it. Yeah. Put the ironing board in front. I got cushions up there so I put them on the top. Yeah I don't think Tom would go up there anyway. I don't know! Well you know what I'm like with those And if she's called round she goes looking for a cardigan or something on. I told she's got another twenty eight days. He said oh that's good then. in the box. . Twenty eight days coming round . Pardon me! At least er, they'll get their Christmas over here. That's it, yeah. I know you do. Wednesday. The girls are going with Sally and the boys are going Thursday No Wednesday. Wednesday. Wednesday. On Wednesday night that's right. Then No. Pass. And what else Bet? Erm You do realize it doesn't finish till half past nine don't you? That's alright. Cos they've got Oh you, you're talking about. get up alright? Gonna take in a club after, alright? Give or something. Yeah I don't think he will. If he plays up you shout at him right. He won't play up. You worry too much. He's good when he's out away from his mother like all other kids. Only plays their mums up. Oh they gotta go in erm in the canteen haven't they? Eh? Have they been getting any? No . Cos I like that. Makes a change for her doesn't it. wondering what I was doing on the twenty seventh. Was I working or having a day the day off. Oh God. Anyway we've got all that to come next Wednesday what . You in or out? Saturday and Sunday are taken up. Monday we're going out for dinner . No that's Sunday. that Monday is that? Yeah on that Monday we're going off Are you working the Saturday? Yeah. Where are you going? Where's Sally going? I'll show you what I'm going to do. No I'm not worried about what you're working up there. I want to know what you're working down here. Yeah but I can work it out can't I? Erm Thursday Friday Saturday That's right innit? The Monday. Got Sunday Monday Tuesday off. So I'm working Wednesday Thursday night and that's it. That's if Yeah and I don't want to hear about, telling me about that bloody shop. Get down there Hey! Mm. Great got to be over there about half past six. Tuesday, Wednesday. The twentieth I'm not working that day Well we could get twenty first. Twenty first I'm not working. Alright, what'd you say? Well can Clay take me up the bingo? Yeah if he's home in time. Or Kay could take me up bingo I ain't worried. Yeah stay in all night. don't we? Yeah. We goes out If you're going to effing bingo and Dave's going to effing bingo, we can all go out up in my car, the girls can and have to squeeze up in the back of the car. Drop us off and go off to do your bingo. To do your numbers innit? And then come back down and meet us in the club when you've finished. Well yeah pick you up at twenty past nine Yeah, yeah. Meet us in the club. Cos we only go in for one drink to cel , celebrate Penny's birthday with her. Yeah. No worries. The kids are allowed in the club . Yeah. Oh yeah. Did you see ? Yeah I seen him last night but not to talk to. Oh. I'd better go. I know, I'd better go, she'll be needing money. Goodbye then . Goodbye. Let me carry that up to the gates. It's too heavy for you my love. No it's alright. Are you gonna put a coat on? What? Are you going to put a coat on? I can't sneak off no more look. Where is it. You've hid it. Oh there it is. It's where you put it. I thought you hid it. four letter word I Answer machine only takes quarter of an hour to I thought he hid it Bet. You know what he's like. empty out and if the automatic stuff don't work. So I've got to be there to fill it back up again. So wherever I go I've only got quarter of an hour. I've only got quarter an hour to go down and have a smoke. I s that was the thing, Dave was moaning about it last night see. So I said answer me one question then Dave before you run off. He said what? I said who gives me a . Well nobody. I said well then thank you very much. You are gonna speak Maggie. No I'm not. You are. You are. You're speaking now. You were. First time knew Maggie with her mouth shut. Aha. It's not possible keep yours shut that's for sure. insulted him. Where's bleeding Bradleyscope ? Bradleyscope is near Craig's school place. Oh that's not too bad . It's cold in here innit? tape on here. Got to innit, got to use them up. Got to use them up yeah. Got to get my twenty five quid haven't I? decided on where Er? You ought to take the very first one round to Maggie's next time you go round there. And play it back to her. Mm. Oh it's hilarious Better not. honest to god it is hilarious. You always Googie's voice very prominent. Mine sounds like sandpaper. Terrible. You telling I've got a big mouth. Well not really but a a very strong voice. And mine is. Yours is strong yes. Well It's like the swearing's wonderful. Shall we give these a ring right. That's the phone number at right? Well just don't leave it on when you have a political argument with Billy alright. Well yeah about that. Excusez moi s'il vous plais. Got to talking. First week of January if you want have that okay? Yeah. You got to get it out to get it ordered by the first week of January. Right. Otherwise Oh yeah. Here you are Julie right it's here, okay? Put a square round it, give it a ring and ask them I only want the two front seats. All I want for Christmas is my two front teeth, I don't know about two front seats. I said to Sally what do you want for Christmas, do you want some chocolates she nearly hit me. That's not right is it? No, they didn't have those little ones. I got you three quarters. Anybody got a pen? Our Julie had a pen. Oh here you are, Sally's got a pen. I couldn't see the washing when I come out of Googie's and I said I've got washing on that line and I said I can't see no there ain't no washing on that line. She said oh could have took it down the launderette and dried for you. Still on the line. I was just about to put some more out. I wasn't going to but I will I think got to go out there at one o'clock so I never seen anybody Keep your head down. last night. When you went out. bananas. bananas I think erm is that that Isobel's dog again? He was out there the other night hanging about a lot so. She a couple of nights running then. that's all about . But I'll tell you what they have Yeah but even he was gone the other night . Mm? I sat in the front room. I could hear our . And er go out. I don't know what was going on out there, both of them were going out there. Strange innit? Hey. Tell Betty how big that erm thing of Roses was in Woolworths. Like that. Bloody big. Was that a jar? No it was like a No this was a plastic it was a plastic container. What like that? Well, like, like Bloody hell. I reckon you could use it as a waste paper basket afterwards. Blimey. That big. I said Mags, look at this! The girls Wendy's girls was making a tape last night for their grandma and granddad you know. Ah! And Keith was acting silly and bloody barking like a dog and miaowing like a cat. Excuse me . Sally can you . Look you moan about everybody else. Practice what you preach. I don't want to lose Maggie, okay. No it's too heavy. Ooh reckon it's gonna snow don't they. That's what Dave was just saying No that's not. I'll never get up on the wagon. Well just hope just pray and hope that the temperature don't go up slightly. Cos if it does then it will. Well they forecast don't they? well no if it's cold then all of a sudden the temperature will suddenly rise. And that's the time when you get snow. It's not. We don't have no snow February do we? So did they all have fun nosing at your hamper when it was brought in? Well I came back from coffee and it was nearly put away. Did she tell you about my Oh dear. sagging is he? She said Maggie you're not gonna leave that cupboard like that are you. I said why what's wrong with it? She said you stand here and have a look. Mm goodness. got ours down there and in here. Yeah. You got to hide all the booze away here. Had to hide We've had to hide the booze. Donna'll be here next week. Now is that supposed to mean something! Say no more innit? Yeah but David's coming with her. And a mate of his as well and the kids. So that's it. The booze has got hid. Got to hide everything away. And Clayton's not allowed to open his big mouth. Put it in the shed and lock it up. out of sight all your tins and glasses. Yeah. outside like. Yeah. I er I forgot about them the night before and I forgot to tell her about it last night so. Veronica came up didn't she yesterday to see where her er has Sally got her stuff please. Good grief. And I said no she hasn't. I said she can't get in to the shop. Not this week. Well it's tough. she told me there ain't no wo , no point going in now before for the night anyway because everything's so dear. That's it. get's a list Well that's it. I just get what I can. Yeah well it's cheaper for us anyway. Cos they'll try and sell it most of it off anyway because they have their stocktaking. They'll restock won't they in the new year? To start off again I suppose. Yeah. They try and get as rid of as much as possible. Do you wanna cake Maggie? No thank you Dave. Sure? Mag? Quite sure thank you. polite to you isn't he? What's wrong with he? Here you are, you can sit here Well being as he tried to squash me twice behind the back door. He's got to be polite. Then Didn't squash your arse behind the back door. There isn't enough room. Hush up you. He stuck his cold angle down my neck. Oh why is it every time I sit somewhere he's always got to sit somewhere near me. Well Like on the bus. He loves you Julie. Rover Listen to this Rover. Three point five A P V reg. Sixty seven thousand miles. Eleven months M O T Excellent throughout one thousand five hundred and ninety five pound. Eh? What reg? For V reg V? . I think they've put the one in front don't you as a mistake? Must be in bloody marvellous condition for that price. Must look brand new. Well look at this then. Rover three five S E auto . Electric windows, mirrors. stereo. computer. Rear seat belts, alloy wheels, tow bars, eleven months M O T, five months' tax. All in good condition Course I've only got the one catalogue. I asked for them didn't I? Yeah. Don't know where it is. You been and thrown my catalogue out. I only had two. What catalogue? My hampers. Hampers. I haven't seen your catalogue. Well it was with the one Oh upstairs. Jesus. That's not bad is it? No. hopeless. Rover three five s.e. W reg m.o.t. and tax No. four ninety two. Metallic blue, leather interior auto, alloyed twin socket towbar and sunroof. Good all round condition. offer. Or small car with tax and M O T taken in part exchange. They're economizing. Economizing be buggered. No good if you can't see what you're gonna get in them is it? because you got to get plenty of stuff haven't you after Christmas. Vauxhall bodywork new tyres excellent condition good offers four door car. Preferably escort. Oh my goodness. That's good. Gracious. You ain't gonna run out now. I know where to come if I run out of tea bags. Oh god. are we expecting a siege or something. You never know. Well that's it. You don't do you. I mean if we have ten foot of snow and can't get out. No I've got book of stamps from, from Iceland so I can fr fill my freezer up as well. Mhm. With her stamps what she had from Asda or Boots she bought her Christmas presents. That was a good ideal wasn't it? Instead of buying food. That's a good idea yeah yeah. Cos you've paid for the Cos he was in a filthy mood last night wasn't he? God he had it about him. Yes. walking around with a chip on his shoulder . Yeah. A chip on his shoulder. told him if he didn't wake up and be a bit more happy I was going to knock it off. Oh upset him. You? Police. Oh well that's nothing is it. No seat belt, he got stopped for it yesterday. He never? Oh. Course they bloody tighten . Oh right on bloody Christmas. I know. It's his own fault . He's still driving around in that one now. He'll get stopped again. He likes it. Oh well. How much fine is that? Or is it a warning. No. Fixed penalty innit? It's always that pound. Thirty pound. Thirty is it? Think. Oh my god. Not telling him that. Thirty pound? Over Christmas. I ain't telling him that. I ain't telling him that. Ah but you pay on the spot. No. Oh no sixty pound then. Fifty pound three points on your licence. Don't be so soft. Fifty pound three points on your licence. They were doing it down the road here done the other week. Thirty pound on the spot. Fifty pound, three points. Oh What for no seatbelt? No seatbelt. the copper stopped erm They were stopping everybody who was going to market without Yeah a seatbelt. Thirty pound on the spot, fifty pound three points. Well I ain't gonna tell he that. no L plates displayed. And that's a thirty six pound on the spot fine. Oh my goodness. tell him that. Don't tell him Sal will you. No just don't ignore it. Let let through the door. You got worse things. Oh my god when I hear his Bloody awful innit? He thinks it's sixteen pounds. Well he said ah sixteen quid, well ah ah ah ah. He was saying they can't do their job they can't go out and get these proper bloody criminals Well it's true. It is true innit? pick on me. I thought oh god here we go. Were you there were you? Yeah You were sat in the back seat were you? Well not not when he got pulled but he I was sat in the backseat when he was pissy. He was talking about it and he can get really pissy. Then we goes in the garage. Well have you tried to park in the garage at Don't bother. It is so narrow. There's no room to manoeuvre and we got no lock on our car. You should have seen the state he was getting in when he cos he couldn't get round the bloody corner. Found it hard to get our Cortina round. so heavy. Listen to this Rover three five manual, alloy wheels. No m.o.t. or tax. Two hundred and fifty pounds. cos it's an old car. Mind you. He enjoyed coming out with us last Saturday didn't he? Oh he well yeah. He was getting D'you go round and round. To go down?loving that. Oh my god. foot on the brakes Oh I was, yesterday that well was it yesterday? Yeah yesterday night. I was following a car home. I know it was a learner like and obviously it was her first time out. She mounted the pavement three times. Oh. Anyway. He was coming along, there was a push-bike in front. I said to him watch this now she'll sit all the way right to the end behind him. She did. So anyway we come up to the roundabout and she never. She just had to turn out, and there was nothing coming down , foot down, opened up, got I was at the top of the hill and she was nowhere in sight. I thought them poor cars behind me. Oh. Because she was terrible. We went out Saturday night. We got up the top there . Up here where up you know going up towards like Wellings way. And a bloody car was in front like that. We was here Oi! That's my fucking tea Ah. Oh. Language! No good saying oh! . Julie said here's your tea here. No I never. You did! Well I didn't say for you. You did love. No I never. Don't Oh well. Anyhow. As we were saying. Car in front. We're here. Car here. And he just decides to pull over like that doesn't he? No he pull outwards from there. Well explain. He was stopped. He pulled out That's right pulled in. Pull in. Then he pushed straight out. Oh no. Didn't to indicate he was coming out. signals or nothing. Just pushed out. He must ha , he was looking, somebody looking for a house. Realized it wasn't there. Didn't bother to look in the mirror see what on behind. Just pulled straight out. So David was jolly happy weren't they, that lot? da da da da Yeah I'll bet. Yeah nearly on that bend as well. You know as you go round Mm. Where Terry used to live. Yeah. Some crackpots on the road mind isn't there? It's like on that bike Pick our Dan at Saltford look. Go up the roundabout. Straight on down there and straight towards The Globe on the corner? Oh I know, yeah. And coming back the other way. He always cuts somebody up along there because they're going too fast. You see they see a straight road on the outside lane. Go straight down decides to indicate and decide to pull over. Honest I hate that. I gets all nervous. If we get too near a car I think oh my god. Sometimes they're so unpredictable. He does it on purpose I mean it's your fault No he does it on purpose. People go too fast down the outside lane anyway. Oh I don't know. Never mind. Right. Let's go round and put my washing out. Better go and sort that . Missed me programme I hadn't put it on this morning. I'm just getting worse. It's just getting worse and worse. Not with it Betty. Not with it dear. That's all it is. Right then. I've got no interest. That's what it is. See you later. Cheerio Mags. Cheerio my love. Have fun Mags. Bye my love. Bye Cough it up won't you or what. Unloosened, undone innit? Yeah. Bigot. narrow mind. So all the two's If you're narrow minded your Zealot. zealot. Yeah. ta So let's get to eighteen then. Greedy . something, it could be H U N G R Y. Hungry? Yeah. Could be. Greedy, you're hungry aren't you? Eager to be susp suspended on railway . Hung. hungry. So it is er D O H. doh. what was the clue for About music. Money connected dough innit, money? Yeah, dough, dosh. Mm. And it's a deer. There it is, there's D A R I N G. Daring isn't it? Yeah. You don't think did you? And nineteen,old time dance , ends in an a. Old time dance. So it's not sa samba or yeah. Could be cha cha. The cha cha. Leave rearranged to take in west end dance . Where's the cha cha come from? V A R E T and A. David . He's come in his chair. I thought he was getting ready that's why I sat in your chair. sitting here. Bet, tell your husband. What's fourteen down then? Detergent . Bleach? No. N something r on the end. Cleaner. Cleaner. It ain't cha cha then is it? No. Foxtrot. valeta V A L E T A. Put the kettle on. here anyway. Try twenty. pierce . A something t two something. Ah. put name down to make record . And guess what my group's in here. Somewhere. Do you know what pierce is? Enter. For explanation of dancing right, got dance ball, mask, masquerade, Perhaps it's valeta. Erm valeta. fancy dress?hot jam session, ballet, ballet dancing, classical ballroom dancing, choreography and the Eurhythmics . Ah. Ordain. Ordain. Yeah. So Eurhythmics means dancing. Ordain a priest so what do you go, ordain. What's that. What's that. Crossing. England's opening pair perform by degree . Ordain yeah. could be. What about tension? Six letters, A something on the end. Family goes to the sound of music . . Encourage. What do you do if you encourage somebody? Could be a palling What? Palling. Paling? There's no such Paling it's what it is. Because that's how you pronounce it But Losing colour, you're paling. Aren't you? Pale, paling, yeah. Mm that erm ordain is edict. E D I C T. So we want ten across pension . A something N on the end. That's it. Family go to the sound of music . Opera. No. Erm. Theatre. No. Go to . We don't know. Gosh. What's that there? G. Gore. What do you say oh gosh, oh gore, oh? Got? God you say sometimes. God. What's that Golly sounds like half a horse. What's that ? What she's doing. Encourage. If you encourage what do you do? Encourage you to come up here, what do I do? Say oh come on out . Invite Yes you got it. Invite. Stir up order book perception . I N Gee. You gee gee innit? V I T E Gee gee. It's gee. G double E. Gee. Horse. horse. Yeah. Gee gee. That's it. Invite? Was it? Yeah . I like it. So that er th expression of regret is L Oh it's love innit? Yeah Short of twenty four hours. Short of twenty four hours then what a pity. It's the best we can get. Some other day innit? No. No it's gotta be A. Twenty four hours is a day. Expression of regret. Could get the seven down cereal, we might be able to get somewhere. end in an A cornflakes you got weetabix you got shredded wheat. Bran flakes. Is that, is that the right cereal? Yes. Not a serial in a, in a television it's a C. Cereal. Tiny particle holds key to shower . Tap. How's cereal spelt? C E R E A L. Cereal. Like oats and bran and that sort of thing. And what does it end with? It's got to be an N. N. Yeah. Weetabix cornflakes shredded wheat Not bran? No not enough is it B R Is it bran? No No. Sultan what is it the all bran, it has sultanas on it. That bloody thing all sorts. Fruit and fibre. erm there's cornflakes isn't there? Muesli? No. All bran. Oh stupid. Shredded wheat. Sugar puffs. Puffed wheat. Cocoa pops . Rice crispies. That's not a cereal. What? Expression of regret. What. Short of twenty four hours what a pity. Clap. Hard luck. Cereal's corn or wheat. Bran? No that's No that's coat, that coats straw that dunnit? Oats. No. Yes it is. Mm but I don't like do you? Corn, wheat What about corn? Not enough? No. Too many. Corn, wheat. Barley? No. Barley, corn. We're so stupid. That's not barley? B A R L E Y. It's Y on the end. Oats? Barley Rye. Don't know. You sure it's breakfast cereals? No, no it's cereals innit. Got to be cereal. It's not serial on the telly, no? No, no that, cos that's S E R I A L. This is C E R E A L. Oh. Tension. Any type Frustrated. Angry. Mad. Yeah. Wendy. David. You got corn barley, rye oats Grape. No Grain. Yes. sorry. Ah. You got me A for me day. Something love a day, live a day. Innit? Expression of regret. Can't be anything else can it? No. Short of twenty four hours what a pity. Love, leave Love 'em leave 'em Love a day, no something a day. Look it up tomorrow. So all we want is erm two down now. Buck up. Or ten across tension. Frustrated aren't you when you're tensed up. Can't find for tension or buck up. Have to leave they till tomorrow Bet. You done your other crossword? Done the Star yet? No. I'm gonna do the Star. Haven't done the Star that's a short the Star. Since Friday's full moon occurs in the area of your horoscope relating to your hopes, friends and wishes. You should be looking to the future with excitement and anticipation . But erm eating burgers in my tummy. Oh. Don't get your hopes too high or let yourself get too carried away after all you know what people are like . So don't What's he doing? Taking Julie's coat off. He ain't an ounce of trouble. Not a bloody ounce that man. Oh god. Love her. and got the papers. Aquarius. Don't be quite so selfish or you might frighten away I'm not selfish. someone you really care about. Relationships are well starred and a new one will turn out to be very important to your future. You are on the threshold of new things . And Keith's the same as mine don't be in too much of a hurry today or you could miss something important to your future. If you stop, listen and you may learn something to your advantage that may ease the burden you have been carrying . Oh no don't tell me he ain't got the sack. I've been made redundant. You got the car Dave? Yeah. Here's our Sally. money at last seems to be coming in. But if you blow the whole lot on celebrating you will be back to square one. So use your common sense if you are to finish up on top. Go about things in the right way and you won't have the same worries again . Ooh. What's mine? Erm an unexpected kindness will thrill you and also be financially beneficial. This is a particularly good time to consider making major changes either to your job, home or personal life. It may prove traumatic but it'll be worth it . Yes I'm coming. Bye Bet. Bye Wendy. Yeah . Take care. Piss off. Piss off. Have you got the, he said he'd got the car. Yeah I got my car Have you got his money? Yeah. Bye. Bye. . Enchant. Plenty of space given plenty of space given. Plenty of room for a place with Cyril Smith on board. Who the fuck's Cyril Smith when he's out? Cyril Smith. That fat bloke. said that . Ooh yeah. Yeah that's right. It's unusual for you. Deliberate deception . Billy Liar. Did I tell you Billy Liar got a job. Did I tell you? Don't frighten me before Christmas. I thought I told you. No. Where? I thought I told you. Ye but I ne tut. See Seventy people went for the job see . Oh he got it yeah. And he got it. Yeah. He thought he never got it but it come through. Because they chose Guess where? Oh god lot's of choice here. Guess. Where to now. Guess where. In Bristol?in the galleries? The B B C. On the door? Oh my god! I thought I told you last week! No. Sharon stopped me and told me. B B C! Been there two or three weeks. . Well the pay won't be right too long or something yeah Oh I'll go and see her, see the babies before Christmas. Christmas yeah. But he gets on my nerves. Yeah. Don't want to be bloody stuck up there with he do you? Ah but she can't help it can she but it puts you off going when he's in dunnit? That's it. you know pop round five minutes if he was there. you know? That's it. It's enough innit? Sort of say well I've gotta go now. Ah I bet they're lovely now. The babies. I bet she wonders what's happened to her. Bet she thought Bet Scott's grown now. You think she'd have wrote to me. Mm. Cos you know she usually do if I haven't been round for a while she'll say oh what's the matter, have I done something wrong or why you haven't been round or Perhaps she thinks well it's too far to come. She can't help it see can she? And she can't get out and about with all them kids can she? I suppose she got, no she's only got the one home, her little baby ain't she the, well he isn't a baby now. She got three home hasn't she. There's only one at school. Oh there's only Scott at school? Yeah. I don't know if Shane was starting September. Oh he's bound to be now. He's at school. School I imagine yeah. And then there's er Simon. Is that that Simon? Scott, Shane, Simon and Ben. Yeah. Yeah. So how old's Ben now? Two? No. He is must be. No he must be two in January and the other one's in January I think. Something like that. Got one must be, one's three, one's two innit? There's only twelve months isn't there between them. I haven't seen her for months have I. As soon as she'd got over one pregnancy she was in it again wasn't she? I know. And it's no good for her to go on and think she's gonna get a little girl is it? Cos when she left here she thought she was pregnant I told you didn't I? Mm. Like Sharon. She thinks she is and Ann don't know she said I forgot to ask her. Who's Sharon? at Bingo, Sharon. Just had a little baby, Cameron. He's lovely. Sharon No? No, no. Sharon, she got Carly. Her mother goes in for the bingo. Her mother got a tattoo arm. I probably do know her. Yeah. Cos she said to me she said guess what? I said what. She said I got to go for erm pregnancy test. I said oh fuck me what for? She said well I haven't seen nothing since the baby been born. And I said well you don't if you're breast feeding. Don't always do you? No. And she said oh my god she said I don't know she said Paul's gonna leave me if I'm pregnant again! I said well it's his bleeding fault as well as yours. Takes two dunnit? Yeah. He's erm three no he's the same age as her baby next door I think. The same age as Denise's little girl. So it's three months or three and a half months. That's the only trouble watch David coming Yeah. Can't see a bleeding thing now sneak round here and listen to our conversation. Before we could see him coming in couldn't we? I used to sit there I'd say shh so and so's Yeah. Well as long it ain't fucking today. And they usually come on a Wednesday. has to go recently. Well I think they wanted to go with him today. She said is he taking anybody and I said well I expect so. I thought oh my god, what do you say? You should have said he's taking So I said well I said I really don't know but I think so. She said oh well she said I'll get Sally to get me something before Christmas she said. I think Mary'll want what we've bought. Well what she bought she gave it all to Mary because she had Ben's birthday party. And it was three, three mothers hired a hall and a cake and everything between them to have three parties. Erm she said well she said there's about bloody fifty kids and three parties. So she said to help Mary out she said I gave her all the sweets and chocolate I had she said so the kids could have something to go over with. Hm. I thought oh well. Shut your mouth Bet. She they're lovely boys. Got lovely manners. And so quiet. Course I brought them up she said. Oh yeah what did she stay long Monday? Yeah. She didn't go till about Cos I was more or less going as she come in. What did I do for tea? Nothing. David done it. He us come out here twice to st start. And in the end he just banged the top of the bleeding cooker up and . Cos they had had bacon. They had eggs, bacon, beans tomatoes mushrooms and fried bread. You had chops last night didn't you? Yeah. What you doing tonight? I'm doing chicken pieces. I've got nothing. Don't know what to do, I've got nothing. You usually got something in. Got a tin of corned beef I could open. I could do some potatoes I suppose boiled potatoes. Or I could open some tins of potatoes and he'll fry them with corned beef and beans. I thought you usually get your stuff in for the week? Well I do but I've used me chops and er I bought anything. The fishfingers we threw a whole box out last week because we never used them. Erm out because we didn't use them. What a waste. Ooh we got plenty of cheese. I could do a cheese and potato pie potato pie. tonight. Yeah that's easy innit? Mm. No I done it bloody last week. He was late in. And I left it on the side instead of leaving it in the grill. And it got dry. And he come in, he said what's this? I was just going to bingo. What's this up here? I said well that's your tea. He said I don't bloody want that. I said all you've got to do is put in the microwave two minutes that'll do it I thought oh my goodness. Fucking microwave. He never! So I thought oh shut up. When I come back from bingo he said I went up the shop up the chip shop he said and got some fish and chips for my tea. I said well tough you'll pay for it now . Bloody hell. He said I'd rather have had two tins of vegetable soup, he said with a nice pot of potatoes. That would have suited me that and a loaf of bread. He said I had chips for my dinner. I don't want chips for my dinner. I said I don't never co I haven't cooked a chip since bleeding, all year. No. I said I told you if you want chips you go down the chip shop. Chip shop. He said well he said I had Kentucky dinner time he said. So I said well I said a pity innit? I said your fucking fault. I said if you don't want, I said what I got here. That's fucking tough. And he said. Don't get your pissy head on with me. I said you've go your pissy head Your pissy head on with me. I'm your mother. This is my home now please fuck off. He went tut. Anyway in the next breath he said erm about some supper then? I said want some supper? He was laughing. I told him put the bleeding crumpets in the bloody toaster again. And put the alarm on? Oh my god it was like a, well it was like a fog out here. Thick black evil fog. He was dipping them in his tea yesterday. Do you see him? No, he always do that, dirty swine. . He dips everything, don't he? Mm. It's a horrible habit he's got into. My He's always done it. Or is this mine . Uh Uh. where did he get these from then? That's yesterdays. This is todays what he's bought. Oh that's right. Of course. Oh you silly cow. That's what he got from the post, I bet he bought two of them. Yeah I bet, I bet he bought more than that He never brought me back no money. Where's me money gone . I bet he took it. Oh dare! Oh that silly sod. Oh. I said to him this morning I said what sick joke's this? I said what joke's this. He said what joke's what? I said you should have brought back ninety five pounds he said it's ten pounds extra. When was that, today? Mm. He's a crafty I said to him there's fifty, well there's sixty one pound I think on there. He said well I had to get fags and papers and petrol. I said what? He said well erm, that's it. I said do you realize we owe Julie fifteen pound and she wants it today. We borrowed it to go out with. Well you'll have to pay her won't you. I thought well, I don't know. He's hopeless. Why does she want it today, I mean you got to pay it back Well yes. So she said give me thirteen didn't she. Cos she owed me two. I don't know . Yeah. So I give her thirteen. And that's what she said I might as well go with David. Sally don't want to go, I got thirteen pounds . So that was that. I mean she went up and got that out of her bank for us to go out with Monday because we had no money. Oh yeah cos I got you your fags didn't I? That's right. But I didn't bring the papers cos I Not paid you yet mind. No. I don't know whether I ought to have my hair permed this week but I couldn't really afford it. Can't you? You should do it next week then. Yeah what We'll see how we get on tomorrow. I could always do it and then pay me next week couldn't you? Don't really want to do that . But you know I don't worry do I. No I know but I says that to Mrs she said I'll see if I can afford one before Christmas. So I said well don't bloody worry she said but I couldn't do that. It'd worry me. Don't worry. You know I don't worry. I'm not in a very strong position anyway I asked one of they didn't I? Yeah nobody said yes did they? Ask Clayton, he'll pay for it. Say give our our some money for doing me hair. See what he says when he comes in. Say I can't afford to have me hair done this week can you afford to give our Wendy some money? I says to him it's only five quid he said ah. It's not half as much as she charges in her shop. Mhm I couldn't do that. I couldn't be nasty and do that. He got to buy the lovely a present. He said what can I buy her mum? What can I buy her I said I don't bloody know. Necklace? He said she got rings, she got necklaces, she got two or three watches. He said she got everything imaginable. She got erm bleeding leather jacket and she got a bloody Take her down the town. What I said. He said no, he said no I'll put some money in her car and say get something yourself. I said well that'd look nice. He said well I don't know mum. Keith was gonna buy me eternity ring then he said oh I'll buy you a watch instead. So he bought I the watch. Nice innit? I said I don't really want eternity ring because I can't get it on me finger. Me finger's are so small. If I put another ring on it cuts like that one. Oh. And it cuts right in my fingers. Can't wear three isn't it? Can you? no. Can't wear three because it cuts in my fingers. I wants my others. I've had them stretched once, I wants them stretched again cos I've got a beautiful ring up there and I never puts them on. He complains when we goes out. He says I bought you that bloody dress ring ye bloody years back. Why don't you wear it? I said well it's too tight. Get it stretched. I've already had it stretched once, it might break. Yeah. Doubt if you'll be able to have it done again. I wanted a P but an O. An O my finger is. And he'd listen? Instead of letting me try it on first. No. He listens to that bleeding stupid Debbie. She stuck it on her bleeding finger. She said I got fat fingers that'll do. And it wasn't no good it. He's starting work tomorrow Who? Yeah I thought it was to take er Peter to the hospital. No You've got it wrong again. They've got a Tanners Court. Tennis Court? Tanners Court. Tanners Court. Tanners Oh I know. I'm would part the there. Yeah be alright there. Yeah be alright at the very . Yeah first day, people find a exit. Well I'm not going out with . No, yeah doing what someone, not taken notice of these. They every time, when he rung up Radio Bristol when I was about having coffee the other morning . For what pensioner they wanted did them . They want something to . To see . Well he's no bleeding good cos he's disabled, he's got one leg down He's gotta start tomorrow afternoon at one. Thursday? Behind eh Superdrug in Bristol. For three weeks? Oh it's a Christmas shop again. Yes. And you want to wrap up warm. Looking for in, in . Yeah Yeah They're gonna have that bit disabled. Oh that's at the back of the gallery. Got at to a Got at the back of the gallery that is. Yeah like you won a rabbit? That . They . round the back of the gallery. The Superdrug is right on the main and they've got a they've got a great big car park now at the back of the new gallery. No listen, you know where Debenhams is? Yes. You come up from Debenhams bit Yes. and you got erm Turning on the right, you go round back, round the back where there, there, there, you get married. No, no, no, no, no. Ah you innit? No, up Yes, what going towards the post or the other way? No, erm Go past Debenhams. You know where Debenhams is? Yeah. You've got the row of shops haven't you? Yeah. Takes you down to the Littlewoods. Yeah. That's right. But come come back up a little bit Oh I know ,yeah. come back up a little bit Yeah. and erm There's a space down there Oh I know where you mean. You got that?going down to Yeah. British O erm British Home Stores, British Home Stores haven't you? Home Store , yeah. Then the next, it's the next turning up. Yes. You never see a up that way I never Yeah. It ain't what You never go out. It ain't what Have you got to fit in? Yeah. Have they? And they got a No Can he see her? I got than that. Don't you get p do they give you petrol money? I don't know. Well they should do for nothing could he? No, our Doug doesn't, our Doug does voluntary work at . Yeah and Yeah. But didn't give me no moneys. Nothing. Get sixty pounds. I've got to phone up Sunday I'll say he can't do it until the spring cos dad's got he suffers with his chest. Yeah but he He goes to this drug unit and helps at the library. Library. Wrap yourself up warm. No he doesn't , no. Dave will, he'll get a free lunch. Oh no Doug don't get anything. Well that . Yeah. . in er British Home Stores innit? British Home Stores. And a tip . What checking . You might, you might, you never know. come down you've got nothing to . If we come down there, if we come down there , if we come down there to she'd want you to . And don't come a bloody car park don't put the board up . poor chap. Yeah . Ah no. Ah. Now what they see she went . Pensioners. I should have for Christmas. I on the door. When he's getting paid I . He's make sure he's wrapped up warm and feet and all, he's gonna be bleeding c he's gonna be . I'm telling you, you won't have the fire on you'll have the bleeding lot on. Give him a pack of Aspirins I've got a pack here. Er,come up along here. Yeah I know. British Home Stores. Few weeks ago. Oh I know,what time do you want . Don't know. Yeah . When I fourteen months ago. It's about time you started done again. That's what I said. not very clever. If I didn't order and stand up for her you wouldn't. She wants somebody behind her to up her. I know. What did you get off Father Christmas?looking at his sack and he put the bunny in the cellar. Weren't the bloody come down would I? Oh. No you'll get bugger all. Could do what the . Well we'll go down now going to dinner, we're going to dinner with him. Yeah. Oh yeah . Yeah and we pensioners on the book. Shh. What was the bloody dinner bloody left. I did You did not it was too bloody hot. had my dinner it's just the treacle stuff She gets worse. Why did you have to bring her over Geoff? Eh? Why do you have to bring over, she gets worse,. I don't know she's there half the time. You got the tape on this morning? It's on. What . You better come on I want to know. Do you know what we've tape? Clayton. Oh no. Hooray. He can't get in. Yes Clayton. Hello darling. Morning. Hello my darling. It's like a mad house. Morning Clayton. Morning Dave, right. I think our flat is just of his own, he comes and goes where he likes. Does he? I settle . Good innit? What you want a bed?then. I said to him Don't make a mess in there. I said to go in and see and I said to him go and see the bear, and with that Dave knocked on the door. I he was only talking to us before you knocked on the door. And I see your poor mother wandering up the town She said . looking for you. Yes er, yes I've seen your mum first time she'll have a . But she won't come in here, I am. I know she didn't, I didn't know before she . No, no, she offered. Very shy my mum. Oh you won't be shy if your mother come in here. No I figured I said don't worry darling, I said, on Thursday I'll clean the fire for you. Oh going back, yeah he's gone back to his work, I said now don't spoil it Kevin for the day. No. Oh you are. Oh you are. today where he can stay at our mum's . gonna get him his dinner bread and cheese You must be joking They'll be over the Legions twelve o'clock. Well there's the open, we could have gone up the . cos he's isn't he? Don't worry about your work. I thought myself, there's her mother wandering about, is she off galavanting with Dave, where the hell she gone. Gone. When, when I see he come back I thought never, he ain't been up Kingswood already, but you haven't been up Kingswood . Course I have. Did you give him a lift and have to go back down? just a bloody job. Why not? at first. No, no I don't want to sit down. He's going in now. I'm, I'm going in a minute. Well he wouldn't work without it. It's very kind of you David, I get people . I . I know you work . He, he'll never gonna see you, we don't . , you see I Oh One of these days you'll come out and your tyres'll be down . Well we thought the tyre was down now,thought we had a flat tyre. Yeah well Well last night I meet You're up early Oh god I knew . Have, I got witness Miss . Okay, do. Come on. What's he do again. Last night left them lights on. Oh never left the bloody window open? Yeah. Yeah. I know she did, I know she did, I'm watching your bloody property. I do, I watch last night . stick up for you to stay there. Well the car went wrong. Hello Danny. Yeah. I went in her bedroom last night, switched the light on, went I thought I'd seen lightning and I thought oh I couldn't have seen lightning, anyway I goes to . I . That's not bad. Bit slow here put the kettle on. Yeah erm I told you I just gonna get the kettle on. Here what she just say? Anyway What's that . When I turn the light off, the only thing is,where the switch is When . looking in the window. So . Put rubbish in my bag. I can't get it off, I can't stop the bleeder. like that and they go round the windows . Anyway I comes out to here and said don't go near that door, open the back door very careful, there's three kids got and then we went out and chase the buggers. Why,unless we can rock the bloody thing release it. Yeah, you wanna . You know who they were? Well I think, I think they . It in erm, well no, no, erm That's the way trying to rock the bloody things this morning. They've got the new . Yeah I think it was he but I be quite sure and I think it was the boyfriend was number thirty, but I don't know other one, right out of the window where the porch is. Tried to push went bit of a shock I think. He went out and he chased them. my way, couldn't see nobody. So, erm . I didn't bloody watch them . in the window and the gate . like. Yeah. Ooh. My Pete said, my Pete said do you mind that we sat at the table, I said yeah, that's, that's, that's a How do we . Quiet man . we could do it . It'll be alright. Bring them up there. Yeah, he . you mean that quiet gentleman ? It's in the garage . Must have his . Heard that. You want to get your . David and I went out the other Wednesday, he said . Yeah. He's got me now, so there soon be . Ah, you can argue as much as you want with now. Yeah,worry about that. We are the labourers, we are the labourer policy. You that stupid . If it goes quiet here until a certain person come over. I gotta be that bloody dubious for me to . I . yes they will. Where did she go? Oh she went out didn't she? Where did she go drinking out of glasses? Did she? Always got . At least she . Told her and told her and . Oh, He goes there a lot. . Wish I was fifty years younger. I told you that mother three months ago. Yeah, you don't work here, he just says don't you have your finished . You slag me off. Yeah, yeah. You . Yeah but the difference between the two is get stuffed. No, don't tell get worse. He calls us old tarts You . Well you start comes over. I don't. You do. Do not. No you don't, she start, be that . Ah well you no bloody live here do you? I do still. Ah, well, that's a long time ago when there was . Yeah. Well that's the difference. Aye. Well,. Is that why we get on so well ? Yeah, yeah. Oh dear. We're the poor . Mixture of . Yeah. He can't help it like that it's funny age. all the . We haven't seen these have we Dean? No wonder they've stitched . this is my old this is my older sister. same age What month children they March. You don't have a every day . All is. The day before the day before Keith, yeah, twenty seventh. Yeah. he was created, he wasn't born. Ah on my birthday. What does that pain the backside want coffee? Coffee Craig? Bloody hell that be bloody dark in a minute,. You know, you would never believe it, until she got married she wouldn't say a boo. don't believe it. Ooh, she's every . Oh, you know , when I lived down . see her when she was like a . Oh well big . didn't see nothing. Terrible. Yeah. Went over her mouth. Before I got married I used to go a church twice a day. told me. I was a Sunday school teacher. And I was , I was a I had lovely blue eyes. Yeah, your mother's. Where you met Edna? Where you met Edna? Eh? That's right, that's what talking about. Look at me now, I'm a bloody wreck. He's marvellous. There you are. No, he's marvellous. Eighty one . Eighty one yeah. Yeah, were there. Yeah, were there. Just throwing your orders in. Just throwing your orders in. My dad, our dad's good isn't he for his age? Yeah. Well that women in yours other week that I couldn't do this save , I'm sorry sir but you're under sixty five. Yeah. I just set . I went to order . I said oh my god you've he said aye, if she knew Bert now, he said he'd be dead . Well if I was a nice looking girl again, he'd know me cos I I was very Ah,there. I got that . I got it . I look very these days,, yeah, I know you're all . You're, what? There's nobody else at it. Eh? cracking. cracking your They lived in Road when I was born. Who did? Who was the most looking . Yeah I'd know her. You'd know my mum. You? Yeah. no, that's a compliment, now you can't bloody deny it. Yeah I've been wanting to ask you, what do you think of my little flat then? Eh what be going on then with you two? Oh,. Younger than my . Ah, now. Younger than my toy boy. I always wanted a toy boy. She's toy boy. Ah, but you're a winner when I I'm alright now. But you're, you're good at . It's after him girl you are. Yeah, the night life. Yeah. Who's baking the bleeding bread then? Who's baking the bread? Who's baking the bread then? Lucky baker. Well they on guard,or what? What in a minute. She scares him off. Listen. Every time she walks in this house, she starts him off. the way that bloody Mike sees , some of them do no work over there till he goes back. You mind we eat? No. No, what? morning, woke up with . Then she comes over . Like . I must admit I'd never of dreamed . He said when I come in here first have never this way before. Yeah. When he come in , when he come in here first. want the holiday. You said to er, didn't you Betty? He said that's a nice lady, he said you've got somebody respectful coming here, watch you mouth, didn't he? Aye. He said that to her lover. Say what , look what you've done . I know. Corrupt you, he corrupted me. Who me? I said to his girlfriend, aye, I said to his girlfriend Liar. Can't get a word in without can he? I said to his girlfriend Nobody can. Now you, now you knows why he stays quiet. And bloody get there. I didn't think he swore at . Who? First time I, I I don't you. Fifteen years. I . Fifteen years I've known and that's the first time I've ever heard him swear. Oh my gracious you are . God. You are . Oh my girl. Aye. Oh. Er your memory's just terrible . There's nothing . Swearing at I like to . Yeah, then I . be alright. Looks like that chap in er erm Your . What shop in Watford? and there he is , I seen his hat there on the settee, I started laughing, I, I . Well what's . Well it was on the settee and cos he had his blue hat on. Julie said he went up to bed and she she said he sat his, sat on the bed, went like that and he was snoring. When , when I see him he was on the settee . Don't know how people could go to sleep and . And he had hat on. I toss and turned. Oh, I just wasn't . Oh she'd stay in bed all day. Oh, I could sleep with Oh yeah. I think we'd better get now confusing. Getting a bit I don't think. Eh? Bet the weather's gonna be nicely and wet and cold. You ain't go . Oh, I, I want if I go out tonight. She said But that's a . that's where she started . Getting excited. I know, I told her. When do you and mum want to go? Ah they're dragging you out already. They're sending me out . No. Ah. No, they've not come . Oh. They like going out? No, they didn't want to go out. Don't be bloody miserable. going out tonight, I got me , I got me crosswords to do aye, things to do, I got to bath him yet, get all the I haven't done nothing. Yeah, but made my in for a tea. you got one for the . Eh, you got one for . Going outside are you? That thing have come for Heather and Mike. Broomsticks . What, what, yeah. Oh Vilma. Vilma, oh, you got to for . You got . I come over . you see . I should say . No, this is . Do you think . Drink your coffee up . And And I . I tell you what was nice, you know that , you know that, what I bought, that er fruit cake? Yeah. Have a I did on Sunday, it was lovely, really nice. What's ? Yeah. Cherry? Try it out. It was like, you know like the piping you get in the tins, only it was in a silver packet and it was beautiful. Oh it was beautiful. Edna does baking. What, what is it cherry? Cherry. Oh cherry. Lots of cherry. isn't that funny for and I'm gonna make one. Yesterday morning on the cookery up by there you needed some ice cream cake. Yeah I like . Baked Alaska. Ooh. Ooh it's beautiful because Ah Sunday. Ah it's . What he'd say? What it he said like you to be rid of them. I'd, I went to with my friends on Tuesday and . Yeah. Over to the general public Joe. Miles away. Joe. Open to the general public, so in we go I could now . She's got a bad throat. Who? Listen, went out to this shop with my friend and she's gone deaf, seriously she has. Dora. It was her birthday. Bit like Ike. Sixty six she was, so in we go, and it's got open to the general public, so this man said to her something about I can't serve you I've had a robbery, she said I don't know why they advertise it on the window if he's, if he's not prepared to serve me and when I looked round there was all the taken over, they had a burglary. She found it to be . Oh, perhaps she didn't know eh? she . There's nothing to . He cracked up. Did he? What did it. Then she said what you laughing at. I said they've have a robbery, ooh she went Worth a . Got embarrassed then. When I went round there's all the police doing the finger prints. Ha, ha, ha. Oh I don't like that. Serious that is. Well, I I don't know when . No, it's only cos she got a cold. No we're laugh, not laughing at her being deaf, we're laughing at her, the robbery. The robbery. Yeah, but she couldn't hear. Didn't realise. To hear. I thought it was Candid Camera I couldn't stop laughing. I mean my sister phoned me up tell her friend died in the . Listen me Blanche she said, well I knew the truth she said was a friend to me. Yeah, the . I said, yeah. I went and answered who Joseph what bottle does it in? Oh god, my, my sister have been . Laugh, she's worse than me. He was good to me she said What was he doing out an a courier wasn't he? A courier in the bloody army. They were watching his . Neither were . He there by now, he got be . Yeah,. Now you, you listen to this, you listen to this, now he was suffering, he had to carry a bloody bottle An oxygen mask . for oxygen and he did drive a car. Yeah. Oh. And there were times when he had to stop the car and put the bloody bottle on him. Get oxygen on and I said to my sister a married bloke. How the bloody hell he's . Anything happening now . He had to stop the car because he had . , yeah, she said she had . Could of died in the van. Well he cou well no there's a I don't think it was romance I thought he kept her in chocolates and cigarettes. Ah, she was ever so upset and , he sat there bloody laughing. I shall regard . I said what Indian battled did he die of? I have him on the phone and god she was . Trying to be serious. Alright for you she said sat there bleeding laughing she said. Cos you've never met did you , oh you'll like . Nancy I did I walked with her didn't I? Oh yeah, oh yeah. What's he do? Yeah. Her language is as bad . It's worse. Yeah, yes, she's worse. Anyway she loves it, she do, Everybody. Everybody,she said what's a bloody matter with her dad it's . No. She's lovely. Not bad, I thought you meant she was stone deaf cos that is . No, no . I don't know so much, my younger . We use to do that at top of Road, we use to go up by the bus stop and Remember Philip do you remember Philip ? Used to go out bloody stupid and he use to have these called Philip and he did he was always on Philip . Remember Philip don't you? Yeah. Used to carry a stick with Yeah oh those sticks worse than the bloody . Oh. And we never knew when he was coming. Yeah, but we were . Did you did you know he's ? Oh my word. Yeah. Aye. He had a he, he when he did walked into town he was a cripple, he just sort of fling Yeah, sway a bit. He had a stick under his arm. Ya. And he was nick named Billy Baloo. Mind you when we were young we use to bring . And then Tommy on the wall, remember Tommy on the wall? On the wall , yeah, it bloody Do you know , you know down in W off of West Street? Yeah. Where the shows used to be? Shows used to be yeah. Where Billy eh Get down there. Billy Baloo used to erm know Tommy on the wall Tommy on the wall. He used to know, there's a pub on the corner isn't there? There used to be. Yeah, used to go in there. And there were some flats weren't there with the with Tommy on the w er Philip, that's right, Tommy on one day and he, that pub, he picked a bloke up and threw him straight through the bloody pub window. Did he? Years ago. He was strong bloke. He didn't know his strength. And he'd be walking all over the place seen anywhere, Tommy on the wall and they'd shout Tommy on the wall Yeah, he was just Yeah. He keep folk and all of a sudden he'll go ooh, ooh, ooh. Yeah that's right, yeah. I bet they were was bloody . Yeah, yeah you're right. upsetting, he was stood on the was there, and he was stood on the corner and this er I suppose a couple of . Ever so strong, ever so strong, pick anybody up, yeah,. What did erm He's dead by now I expect. Oh Oh dear . He . Oh, did he do a streak or something? Who? Baloo, streak . Yeah, he go, I tell what Philadelphia Street, down there somewhere, there was a street called Bluestry or something Joe. Where? Blue down by Philadelphia Street, Bluestry. Not . Not Bluer No Blue. No. No. Began with a B whereever it were. I'll ask Graham when he comes. I didn't Philadelphia Street, in all this Anyway it was On Ervey Street . Pardon, you know you get the Brother . still there isn't he? You know you know, you know you went down erm Clarence Road Mm the police station there innit? I don't know that. Right down by . Yeah, but station. Yeah, yeah, the station's there now, but what we use to do is both down there and the next come up and Rights Lane is, you, you know Sheppards use to be there? street. Come up on to New Manor Road? Yeah, yeah. Well if you go through there by Sheppards Yeah. then you'll come out like that. Oh I know where you mean. Go over there and that must . Oh That's right, yeah that's right, yeah. Fish and chip shop . And Audrey, Audrey made me, her mum kept one of the pubs down there didn't she? Down where? Down, down on the corner of erm She kept that home the corner where . That was well . Her name was , but she's married again ain't she? Did you know the ? Did you know Tom ? Yeah,in Bart Mill in er Richmond Street. No. , yeah I know, yeah, cos that , yeah, I know . Lilley . Yeah, nine children. That's right, I did. Yeah. That's right. That was my friend's son the . Did you know the ? Mm, say no . , they knew the Did you, did you . Live on the end of Jarver Street. Yeah . She use to stand on the street. Oh, you know Yeah, yeah, I know . Yeah. She's bought them the where they it was like two pieces . No, it weren't sure be strangers that was . Yeah. Was it? Weren't it ? I knew that. I knew that. That's bloody sure. before she was married. Yeah. I it was horrible it, it ever since . , I used to know , when the door went back . Shocking. Couldn't, no I couldn't, I wonder if it were him?so , she's my bloody . Well, it's so bloody long ago were likely forget. Ooh, ah, No, not they. I see . Oh no, oh no, it's just . Margaret she's coming to this do we're going to, I haven't seen her for about forty years. Well you'll see her then, Margaret,. When's the do? January. January. Saturday. Yeah you've gotta bring What's he wearing when he goes out to dinner? Are you going? She's not. No, she's not. No, no, no, no, no hawkers nor circulars. Where you going? Where you going? Oh have you? I've got to phone, I booked our mum up to dinner, she's coming up. Well I'm not coming then. Ooh, lovely. I'm not going then for oh ages. Ah, ooh isn't that lovely? No. Yeah. You know . bloody out of the way, I'm not . Where is it? Where Can't tell everybody where we're going. Where's that to? That's what . Book on our own Bet. I at you. So I get a . I go on gives you ten pound leave your money in there. Bye. Don't forget. Don't forget, don't forget. Where is it Dean? Where is it? Over there. I should do it. I got in there. We have a . I spent her she got it . tell me where is it? Ain't got . No, no, no, no. I, I, ain't . bloody booked our . I've put three in. Yeah but, yeah but we've booked what we want, if you ain't booked in here. I have I booked in here an'all. Well then that's a bloody cheek. What she having? What she having? That is a bloody cheek. What, what? To invite people in, we're not, but four of us is going and they buggered the lot. No . Well. No, there was a reason for it. You'd like to go in my place? No, there was a reason for it. There's a reason for it. I'm going now. What, two old people to go, so Maggie thought would better to go with you. Oh, that's a not very nice thing to her. I won't say that's a . What, what Have to ring up the health suite tonight and say cancel one out ones come in. choke to death. Whereabouts is it? Come up up through Hammond Street, do you? Come up the High Street. I think it's a bloody cheek. to come and . Yeah. Yeah. Down by the Blue Boar. Yeah, the more the merrier, go on. Down by the Blue Boar yeah. Go on. road then turn right. Well it's turn . Turn left. Oh. Perhaps she couldn't come. going to get over there? That'll be her words . Oh my god . Oh god. Er look, one word of warning, Yeah. when you go there, I don't want no bad language I shan't. and I want you to give some in the in the . Did I behave myself when we took you out ? No. She wasn't the same. Oh, I bloody did, didn't I,? She wants a karaoke lunch. Ooh shouting about, ooh I burnt my bloody mouth. Places I've been . We have wine on the table girls, drink it Ooh I do like a fish. Edna don't drink nothing. Ooh. Don't you? No. Nor do I. Since I met her. at home, so my own lemonade. Ooh we get a drop of vodka in that. This is . I've asked . Gave it nicely. Gave him a David said to her there's Ann, let Ann and you in the back and Wendy three and Aunt Betty in the front. Fair enough. She'd get the bus Let me take her. She's getting the boot. Well let me That's nice. Well,towards it, upset the cart now ain't she? She'll upset her , you bloody don't say nothing, but you say when she's gone. Oh,. say you, you ought to say it to . What about . When she got that come from . Oh Oh bloody hell. not now . Have you, have done a . You do, sat here in the bloody chair and gone ee ee Jake. Jake. He's gone out with Joe. Gone out with Joe. I wonder if he's . Well, I think Joe's gone. dinner . No got me fish and chips today. What took me right off now ain't you Bet? Cos I have ain't you? Yeah. Well they married two or three . cos I will make it up by Christmas. Ooh aye,. you go and pick her up. They think it's a bloody halloween party. How am I gonna get down there? I got er a bloody walk, you'll not take car. How you . leaving him poor chap. I was gonna wear that old bloody buy something now. You haven't. You always look smart when you go out, don't she? No. You do. It's a bloody . Dad shows . You've got bloody . Ah yeah, yeah, but, But I got clean drawers on. Yeah, no wait a minute let her tell you what I not mean when he comes over our house I always give some . with her. You could've come. She never said. Oh. That's you in the doghouse now,. No. Ah. They do, yeah, they do. Eh? place. You do, I know she do n't. W w what about you for? Because, she a friend, that's okay, she goes. see her friend. Ah, ah, ah. give over. Your husband for a friend . I've been with him fifty four years, look if you want . Look who's . Fifty five. Yeah fifty five years . The poor chap he got a a a he haven't got a penny in his bloody wallet. I am for all the bloody rice in China. I don't think I would've been married fifty eight years. Good lord. Good god. There you are, see? he hasn't got a penny in his bloody wallet. No. Not got a penny in his pocket. He wants a pound, I give him one. Just like that He ain't got a penny in his bleeding pocket, poor chap. No he never had nothing. Yeah. He had all about with I said do you mind me going out with he said no, you go and enjoy yourself, and I put the money on the table. . Aye, yeah, but the thing is you says he's got no money in his pocket, but I bet he don't go without nothing, I bet he don't, I bet he don't go without nothing, I bet she makes sure he has everything . He's had . Don't, poor old chap, he cooks, he cooks . I said that's bleeding cottage pie . I was saying how nice it was, tell me it was too bloody hot. Has he ever cooked a pie that comes out the oven cold? I said he's . I bet yeah. cook my dinner, ooh he did deliver a bacon casserole, mm, it's hot isn't it? I cooked you bloody one this week. No, I change me mind this week, eh, I bought some erm, I bought there are dates. bought some erm what round, what you have when we have dinner, when we went out to dinner? Scampi. I did I bought scampi. Ooh, I've got something for you in the cupboard. Oh have you, oh lovely. I don't want to . Ooh,last night. I got to see this, got to see this. For who? For her dear husband, it's for a . Ooh, I mean, ain't that funny, I scrubbed the jar out this morning and Joe, Joe said remember the marmalade. Ah. Oh thank you pay you for it. No don't be silly. Yeah, yeah, let's pay you for it. Yeah, I'd like six pounds please. Well . Sit down , that's it. Is that it? Oh I like, Joe do like marmalade. Yeah I do, Peter always buys a jar of marmalade for me when I sleeps up there I have . I have marmalade on toast right and he only said this morning and he said don't forget the marmalade, he's chucking the jar out. Yeah, who asked them? I did. Oh. with you last night and I thought oh, after that poor old pensioner . See calls friends. nickname. Pensioner Yeah poor old forgotten her name. We'll get our ten pound this week, so we're not doing too bad. Gets harder . You want saw her yesterday. Who did? Geoff. Well that's different when it guy. He said she's got a ten pounds bonus because I paid for the . Well, you know you've paid off don't mean that. Well that's what he said. Every year I spend it on the children, we have, we both spend it on the kids, but this year we haven't. said to me, he said, what about ten pound this week, I said no you're wrong, I said we don't have it till a bit nearer, I didn't think so. Yeah you have it this week. I didn't think so, I said er, I said suppose at the end of your wages. I thought . Yes that's right. No Yes Yes,same, it's that sort of same week. You'll have yours today. I thought Bet got it as well, I thought Bet got it as well . I didn't . I reckon that's wrong. Do you have ten pound each? Yeah. Yeah. Oh that's nice then. Only when you sixty five or whatever it is. Yeah. Yeah, but you, I don't see why you . No I get yet , Oh sweetheart . Yeah but, yeah but get it. No. No. No, cos he's only got, if, if he had separate books she would. Oh. But Dave's only got one book. But if sh Bet was on she'd get it. Oh. Serves him right. Yeah, oh, oh, Dave give her up. Bloody omen. you are. Joe won't give you aught. Eh? Joe won't give you aught will he? Joe me all the time . Eh? fish and chips while his . Yeah No,first penny in the pub . like that, and he said it was ever so funny, he took fifty up there because, I bet he told you about the money betting and all that and he's said he bet fifty pound, he thought christ he said, I was bloody lucky he said I, I had the, I said well David . I said the girl at the cards would Did you get your fags and paper? Yeah. I don't know, I hope so. Well what's the . Let me read the stars. Oh aye, we . Yeah. What's you done then? with a paper do she? Where's the Sun? Sally , Sally got it. Oh. Got to have the Mirror or the Sun. That's right,. What's the matter with Sally then? She's all this sick Is she? and bad in work yesterday. Is she? Got a terrible head There's an awful lot of sickness about. Went round there and the next morning she struggle on . She phoned the doctor's she got up she can't get her foot in. David going to work? phoned in and said she . Where ? She looked terrible. She's silly isn't she? Attending all healthy with a charity function seems likely, legal tax and business matters are prominent . It's not only bring them blokes round. Oh. No. They're not figure. This is my wash same as Keith. Aha. You may be getting a friend or neighbour, and handy some s social event they are planning be careful losing money or credit cards while out shopping, your interest can help you with your career, meeting this month may solve problems with high finance . Oh yeah. innit? Aquarius. Oh you . At times you may feel a bit down or out of touch with those around you, however, one matter needs your attention and a new business venture is also worth thinking about things decorating or maintenance as necessary, a telephone call will bring surprising news . Ooh . Oh ain't that nice? Ooh. What's mine? What's yours? What are you? The Bull. Taurus the Bull. Taurus. What are you mum Cancer? Gemini. Gemini. Be firm with people who impose upon your generosity or time too often. Some of you will be planning a party. Dealing with people overseas, perhaps planning a visit is also to the fore. Family mat matters feature and reunions are likely. Someone you care about will h feel happier . Oh. Bullshit Oh . No, I haven't read you the rest of mine cos you'll laugh. You may have to make an important decision, your love life seems to flourish and pr proposals of marriage are in the air. Attend to Christmas preparations concerning children and pets Oh well you'll . Ooh. Proposing Christmas ooh. Ooh. you're gonna be alright you said to him the other night . What do you want for Christmas ? I got . wedding. Yeah, wedding, oh I . I ain't getting married no more. Get on, never . Be third time lucky. Yeah. put me in for a lovely red for me . Wanna see it? Erm, what she for? Bloody . Don't put it in his bloody bed. Oh she's got blue up there in the . Oh that's alright then , yeah, that's alright then. in the Star mine. Other people will be making changes today, you may feel put out that you have not been consulted, however it will pay off if you curb your famous temper. The new rules will actually work in your favour, so go with with the flow . It's a little bit . It's a little bit hard understand that innit? Aries. No. Well it is for you. Do my one. It is for me cos of my brain goes a bit Why? Well, I see through it. Silly. Read it again, I couldn't see through it. Other people will be making changes today, and you may feel out feel put out if you have not been consulted well that should be your stars. she's already bloody done it, telling me . That's what My . Yeah and she yeah . However, it will pay you to curb your famous temper. The new rules will actually work in your favour, so go with the flow . Oh well I think I have a pretty good yeah, that's pretty good this morning that. Yes flow along. You felt like a you felt under more than your fair er share of pressure lately Yeah she has, yeah. Yeah. but at least stress will begin to ease at work and you will feel so free to turn your attention to other areas of life at last. Remember they are just as important . Has she got a ? Yeah. Read Taurus. Who's Taurus? That's me,that's my new friend. Ooh. I know,. All the trouble and strife is behind you today is a golden glow beh today, a golden glow begins to settle over all of your relationships and during the next month many of you may be thinking of making serious commitments. Winter weddings are very well stared. Yeah. Ooh winter wedding. Perhaps it me, yeah. Oh it might be . Ooh, yeah. What's your ? Aries. Aries same as Keith and David and your Dean. I'm . You are, you are, you are at your most confident this afternoon and so this is a time when you should enjoy ensure that your voice is heard where anything important is concerned. This evening you will prove moderately good for romance Done, done the cards . Ooh, ooh. No, no. Girls, no wait,on the car park oh you Bloody hell don't . We've got another to read. Sally's got the Sun out. Oh, she'd better go and get it. You got . This is serious. You don't want to give it up do you? Yeah. You don't, oh bloody hell. What's legal fiddler? Maxwell. Oh aye, yeah, he commit suicide . I did. There was more to that weren't there? A lot more got to come out yet. I feel sorry for his sons because he only told them what he wanted them to know, he didn't tell them the rest. Yeah, they've got . Did you show Edmund your er ? You look yours. I let you know what . Oh yeah I haven't seen it either. I haven't seen it either. That's nice. They'd not of had them before Christmas. Yeah, we always do. It Christmas. That's one way of getting these days innit? Ooh. Even though you are b bound to be feeling a bit today it really is a case of no news is good news. There is no point in proc proceeding any further with certain plans or in finalising any arrangements until you have proper confirmation or something of value that should be tomorrow . there. Ooh. put down that. Oh. What's mine, the bull? Hang on then, Taurus innit? Yeah. Oh. Oh Taurus Since you may not be capable capable, qualified or experienced enough to deal with certain matters, even partners, family matters or legal advices to act on your behalf, and there lies your problem, because some of your plans maybe go up in smoke unless you get actively involved, so legal matters needs to be Never Arsehole. Have any Have you got can you yeah. Have you got the secretary table Ask for your divorce. I come in I said when you move the polish the secretary table. Ha, ha, ha my bloody table. Write him . Write him a love letter yeah. Edna. I wonder why she . don't take no . Things only squeak when they're not . Yeah, that's right, then you like that, well Was they bad? Got lot to think about,they bad? They bad? Yeah. pay for it. They had to squeeze it off ears. No, I make that so discreet and I said to them,on your bloody squeak on ours. I . Got to go and look at . matching pair. That's why he wants to stay here. I mind the bloody brains going on my . Ooh, ooh. Well What . They I got to show you the that I got to . a little red . No, this lovely make up and that and I don't want . Ooh, ooh, no. Maybe two ninety nine. Smell of What, what is it? Ooh no. What that? Can I have a look? Ooh. Two ninety nine. Where's this too? And I bought one for my friend's daughter for ten pounds. Where's this too? That's what Julie give her . . What . . Terrible. Ooh where's that from? Ooh I want those . It's only a cheaper innit? Where did you get that from mum? That free with this. Ooh, I thought you bloody sent her away for it, where you send? She's right on the finger . Take their jewellery off. Where do you send for? These? What do you send for? What is it eh . ain't you? Ooh yeah I'll have him. I wonder why. Yeah I wanna oh that . Bet look China. Nine cents for . Nine cents for . ten pounds. Nine cents for a just what I wanted. got hold of something . Oh I don't mind buying something. That I . Maybe on my life. How much is he, twenty two carat? stamp on it. Get me one of those for erm I'll have the ring there. Two ninety nine, you want me to send off for that? Yeah. Really, you get another ring? Yeah. You get a picture of your choice, look Bet, you can have erm anything on there. I want a bit smaller than this for my . Oh I see. If you order us something . I think you've gotta I want it a bit smaller this . a bit small. see it I . Is it real ? Oh it's real yeah. Oh Yeah. for a size innit? That for a . Yeah, we've got bit . Yeah. No it's I have got invitation Do you want with or ? That one I isn't that beautiful that? I told you . Too big for me. I took it into to make it bigger, right, it was mum's, so they said well we've got to put valuation on it to send it away, so I said well I haven't got a clue, so they wrote down a thousand pound and I thought never in all this world. Oh yeah. Ooh might be. I took it down the jeweller's, nine hundred and forty five pounds. Ooh. Oh. Yes please. I told you, you all . No. I've never seen one like that, have you Edna? No, not like this, nice, very nice, yeah. So they've had a . It's like a double wedding innit? It's nice. Oh yeah. an insurance. It's OK nan died. Ooh don't say things . Erm, see, it's you wouldn't neither . Yeah, alright. Over fifteen pound worth. What? The owners owe her fifteen pounds. Well, what else is there . He gets a Here are mum. No I only ordered that. No, I get He hardly ever tried Linda he wants to see more of that to pay it. fifteen pounds gets a free mirror of . Oh yes Yeah, too big, have the next size down, got to . We'll get the blue one. No. round my bloody neck this morning. Didn't know she was getting it, I was getting it this morning. Yeah , you get Very nice What's that mum? You get . On my life, I ordered one of them for my friend's daughter for her birthday and it was ten pounds that's two ninety nine. Was it? Mm. Is that ? They got all sorts love. My but . Put a note in there, a bit smaller please. please. Er, order a rich moisturiser, skin supplement, facial oil Free make-up Mary, yeah. aftershave, look at my . How much is the aftershave Betty? Well I've sent for my gold ring haven't I? saw the night cream and all that, it's good stuff. I don't use bloody carbolic soap, I, don't never use nothing like that. I do not I wash my face. Never bloody wash. Ha, ha, night and morning and it's it's the rinsing of your face . Face getting the soap off. I've never use I've never used nothing on my skin I never got nice skin oh no I don't, no I don't, well any waste of money is a gimmick. The said that is good, it's it's like erm pearls and is toner for your face. I've always . If you get the soap on off your face, I never used to say that Mm. If you get the stuff on your face your skin and all this it can ruin your washing, if you don't get the soap out of your washing then it's clingy. Not half. Ah? I'll order you one. Yeah. Will you please? Yeah, course I will, yeah. Thank you. And if you getting another ring, but please send smallest size, yeah . Smallest size ,. when I want it. No, I, I . That's what I do. Julie says. Does it? Yeah. Some of them got on. I've got mauve wedding ring on. scarlet,. Have you? Yeah. That was that. Well, why, you don't want to wear them case . Caught . somebody grab you by the neck take your jewellery. Cut them off jewellery. I took, never take that, I never take me bracelets, necklace, nothing off. You go a bed with that on? Yeah. The lot? Yeah. Watch, necklace, don't even take me teeth out when I go to bed. Oh no, I don't . Ooh. Don't you? I do. You know in the paper when they give out the other week No. Well you . Somebody broke in on Lawrence Hill and er you know erm well that's our friends and Lisa's they're always at the party we goes to You have got work now. They were in, aha, yeah, they were in bed, right, and this, look, in bed, listen to this, sound asleep it's on the radio and news, they're asleep in bed with two girls and the boys, the boy was in bed fast asleep and somebody come and touched him like that and when she woke up it was this, this the lad and Ooh. he was in bed with her and she and no she pushed her husband and of course he turned over naturally, he weren't, he didn't know and she pushed him again and he tied them up there, took all their jewellery off of them What ? No. they sold it now, they're they're going to America to live, yeah, they went in the bedroom for it, they went in the bed children's bedroom,sorted it out Oh. kept the children in bed, told them not to move and the boy, the gi erm, what's her name, I can't think of her name now, she erm, she woke her, her husband chased them both downstairs, tell you where they live, you know Lawrence Hill? Mm. I think, do you know erm, er, what can I tell you, there's a big garage there on Lawrence Hill Yeah,. before that there's Yeah. that's go round there, do you know ? Yeah I do. Well they live down there and that was their Anita's friends. Oh. She was petrified, she opened her window and she screamed. She window. She opened her window and screamed and erm, of course the neighbours come but they was gone and they took it all they're gold she had it on in bed, pulled it over husband neck,. When was this? It was on Radio Bristol and, and er When did that happen? Oh Pam come down and she said do you know where it is, she said it's so-so, they young . Ah. sold it now, different people got it and they've gone to Amer going to America yeah that was them, ever so nice girl she is and her children, two lovely girls and a boy of about sixteen I suppose, lovely girl she was, and they were frightened to go anywhere. I know they were. They wouldn't go to bed in their bedroom after she had a horrible job with them. Frightened her, took all her stuff. Ah. Did you?. They must of had a . They took that first thing before they went upstairs to wake her up and and she didn't know who it was, well she looked up and well it just took her breath away and then she tried to wake her husband up, cos she didn't like that, when he got up, he chased them. Well it would do wouldn't it? He was undressed weren't he . When did it happen? When they both . Yeah. fortnight, might be . a coloured bloke. Was it a coloured bloke? Two weren't it, two blokes. Maybe it was coloured. I've go and get me dinner now. Don't know what to get. Fish and chips. Don't tell now, mum . Oh, when you come back here, ya, don't hungry. You sure? She might be. No,. I'll run and get me a minute. Alright. Are you gonna have a perm now? No, I was, too late now. Oh, you see, you can upset everything coming in here. I know. Erm, there you are, Wednesday the eleventh, Doctor couldn't get any . I got that one fish ponds, I got erm gala, I, no I ain't got any, the other one . You want top hand. Yeah. Sounds like . He knows we know all about it, we don't wanna tell us we knows.. He knows what a good nan you are, he knows what a good nanny you are. Ooh isn't that lovely. You read the words. Ah . Oh read the words to me. No word is a beaut for a mother and no mother is as beautiful as you . Oh, isn't that lovely. Where'd you buy that? I does the Ace catalogue every year. Oh yeah. I saw it in there and I thought oh ain't that lovely . You should hang that on the . Yeah, ain't that lovely. Ain't that nice. I picks a lovely . I buy something for Keith every year. Nice innit? It's really nice. Lovely. It is nice, yeah She said I got a watch mum, I said I know.. Nice watch she got. Yeah. I got a . But they give you erm Oh I haven't got one of those. Don't know where he is then. Got all the others. What is it you want a regal work? They give you a temp, yeah, top . Oh they get and go in without that one? Yeah. If they were temping. Oh. Kate said last night she wants to go, could we borrow your car tonight please? I said . Were you the only ? Arrange it with erm work. These are the ones for when you're on a diet, ninety nine calories, it's over there. What chocolate bar? Yeah. Oh. I got to lose weight. Ooh my god. Well if I can't have a bit of this chocolate, I'm going home . Yeah very n it is nice, very nice, that's in a together is it? Nice, that is nice. go home now.. Has come back? Pardon? Edward's thing's come. Ooh, great. I've marked it up so it's see whether eh . What you got? Ah innit lovely innit? fight with the enemy . When, when. the same? Yeah, take him back. He took it back. Well I'm buggered Dave. You er That's what I said about weren't it? Well you did say . Yeah, you did say . bloody told me nothing, go for it Dave. Wednesday. Oh it's Wednesday. Did you do your work ? buggers. Sixty pounds spending money swine. That's . Ah, it's only a bloody car, it's a car. That's what he said about last week. He did, yeah. What about Bill? Yeah, I haven't opened it yet. ask how much I owe is it, because I what's all this in there? Oh let mummy read it. I bet he's pleased about that. Oh that's lovely. Yeah ,for it, has it got ? count sixty pound ninety nine, you nine pound forty. Sixty , how much was yours? Fifty six. Sixty odd pound, sixty pound. Yeah, we've got a gas stove mind. Yeah. I haven't. That's what sixty pound. gas stove. My electric bill . And it's not estimated. It is. Bill, we have it read. That's what I mean. Take that off Bet. oh no, previous, previous. this time. Yeah. very good, mine's like that. Yes, so how much do I owe them? pound, fifty. I've got to pay that . No you don't pay that. You know that when you pay each month right? Yeah. I give it in November or December, it comes through the final bit. Yeah. That's right. When, November? Oh, it's all according when you started, your financial year. Started in January. So your final will come in, in January. January. January. Ah, so when paid enough, I have to save that up. Then if you've paid too much Pay that up No don't pay it now. No. What about ten pound? That's what your bills charge at the moment. at the moment now next month when you get your next bill that ten pound thirty will be worth about twenty ninety one. Yeah. But, erm So you in credit or Who's pinched me chocolate? You ate it. You had one in your mouth. Are you in, in credit or you in debit? Debit, debit. What about me? Is that all you earn? Yeah, that's alright. Where . What's that? You look, that's your dinner. That's a ninety nine calories for them chocolate. Get, you get cooking that steak for us you'll When you pay your gas next week you'll be up in credit then won't you? yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's alright. Oh that's good. So you're electric . No, no. I'm not electric. but I don't think with them other . now. Yeah, Joe thinks it'll be alright at the moment, oh though it don't matter does it? The gas man came and . read out . They do. But when I have to you can read it yourself. Yeah, oh I . When they goes . What did the gas man cover read our meter. What? Monday morning. Weren't Tuesday. Definitely weren't Tuesday. Monday. . Monday, yeah. Monday. Must be out then. Yeah. Remember? Yeah. come down with the stairs to chap, young chap, I told you he's knocking on the door, it must of been then. Can you remember who 's is? Yeah. Yeah. Ain't they lovely. Good.. I, I morning, I, she get what I said when you get one, I went and got you one I said but it was one ninety nine. Oh. Yeah, but I didn't how she come home without on the . I know. how she get on the bleeding bus with that? I put her on. She looked like Father Christmas when she come in. They put her on. They put her on. Yet you And there was a . He said . yeah. Yeah he did, he lives there . I like the look this Christmas. Ooh ha, ha. Yeah, I might. Oh you . Got to stand in the queue then with . No no you've got to have . No. You've got to . several off us mind. Did you hear that programme on ? Did you hear the programme on ? It's frightening. No. It's terrible really, because take it seriously. What one was that? Ooh that was . Yeah, that . What about the film? I cast the little with me because condom on. what said? You've got to carry a little packet with you because who goes to said please can you put your condom on. Condom on. Condom on. Yeah, and if goes in for a pint he gives you a packet now. A packet now, goes in for a pint. Yeah they get you a condom. You've got a bloody . They've got red ones, blue ones, pick them up off the ground when they're finished with them. You know next week at the bar. Really. His name is Bruce . What . That Chuck is playing and Mark, Mark singing,Blue, Blue, Blue, Blue . Oh god. I tell you what I'll bring over when there's a nice erm, they're curling tongs that brush and it's a blow dryer. Oh. That one. Yeah. I've got a little . I think I'll have mine done for party then. Yeah, because . Yeah, and they're blow dryer . in the bloody washing machine. Yeah. own hair. Look I've been washing my hair All for thick hair, ever so thick hair. And the more you done the worse it was I always found that. Yeah, ah? I've got me wig on this morning. Thick hair . Well it's about time you cut up David's hair. Thank you Barbara. Well I said wait till he's finished . You don't pay me . I'm not cutting it because he never pay me . OK You cut my friend's hair and I'll pay you. I having a bloody Yeah, you know what to do next time don't you. You don't pay, you don't pay . I let you make me tea when you come up here. a nice pair of scissors for him . What can we have for dinner? I take you out and have fish and . Isn't that right David? What? If you bought her four lots of tea bags out of your ten pound yesterday, that correct? Yeah, that was for doing your washing I bought her chocolate for her last week. That's for doing your washing oh you,washing, what bloody you'll . God, I know what you get. Oh, do I owe you any money ? No You sure? Yeah. I, I, I tried to break it up . All the electric I got on slot . Slot, I know. I said to Bet I said they ought to write out a cheque on the end. Or do her washing for six weeks . I told her on, on a Friday when she gives the first. Yes . You say you had stuff stood here when I'm waiting for a bleeding . You'll have to wait won't you? Yeah, She's got your dinner. I thought he come . where's your dinner? What did he tell you last week? Yes, I know, I knows that. Bloody . Yeah, getting at you for? What she getting at you for? Don't ask me. chip shop, we can all have fish and chip. Ooh that'll be nice. So you . back yet, no. Ray, where you been then? Oh I didn't know that. He don't he's . Do you want some Andrew? fat. good mind to take the bloody thing back. wants fish and chips don't you? after dinner. Got the bloody marmalade,fish and chips. Getting to me that. Did she? I said the more or less, so I got the in it?. over there though. What's your name? Edna. Edna. I tell you what they do sell over there, ever so cheap jam and marmalade. Over where? Over price. I know I had . Ooh, Oh, I like that . Yeah go and take ooh . enjoy that bit. Yeah. Go and take that thing back then Joe, cos I have after dinner, in the post office. OK. Same and then bring the car back and we'll go and have some fish and chips . What , yeah. Well I meant to say back to the house, I meant to say. fifty four years . Sad innit? do. It is sad innit? He looks hard done by. It's sad innit? He looks hard done by. She's bossy to him though mum. Yeah, but he don't, he looks so hard done by I don't think. I bloody am. I am. Go on, she looks after you. I don't . She's bossy to him though. Cos I goes in there, it goes in there and it comes out there.. Ken Dodd. Ken Dodd. Bloody Boswell. Well bloody Boswell. Take of the electric. what we having then girls? and chips. No, no,. What . Ah yes. Remember years ago Ah, I used to sit there. Now listen and eh do you remember years ago when we She's . Italy and Swalk and all that on the back of the envelope? Yeah. Sealed with a loving kiss . I trust and love you always. Always . Do you know what fish and chips mean? No. No, no. Chip, you write chip, come home I'm pregnant, he writes F off I'm staying here. I like it. Where'd you hear that at the Legion? she wanted I hope. . He can't handle it with all this swearing can he? No, no. before. I never swear . Joe, Joe,. Listen if I had enough time I'll tell you the joke of a life time mate, but I haven't got the time. Oh, it don't matter about the time . No , I'll tell you the best one. Have you, have you ever seen the expression on a man's face when he takes the out, do a crap, stand up and find it's not there? Yeah. Have you? Yeah. Hey, never come across that . Ooh. Get on you dirty thing. Oh what she can do with. It's true, I said . It's true. Now listen, I told you about didn't I? I told you that pea joke . Absolutely . Yeah. Yeah. If I were . listening , listening. He's . Well we don't mind . you, you were, you were disgusting you were . Clayton Yeah. You going to the chip shop? Yeah . David got all . What? Last night he'd gone a work . Here, here, what time does he go a work? Well I've got, I've got, gone all the way out there and come back go out again. Oh innit sad, our Sally got a tank full of petrol she said. Ah, feel sorry for her, ah. Well if that's Sally If that's Sally I wants me chocolate Sally. It's upstairs. Yeah I know. Erm, right what do we want, fish and chips, fish and chips, fish and chips, what you having Clay? Yeah, let me get some money. Yeah, what you having for your tea? Fish and chips. Got to buy your own have I got to buy it? Oh, give me my purse my girl, regular I am. Fish and chips between us mum? No. down there. I . How much is fish and chips Clay? Large? Yeah. Two pounds, thirty I think. I didn't realise. Two pound what? Thirty. My god that's what we're gonna have. Fish and chips between you and Dave. Yeah. Do we have our ? Or do you want something else? You sure? You got, look, I keep thinking it's got tomorrow . Why what's that? What, what you going to have Clay? I don't know mum. Well Let him get what he wants. You better give him fiver. I'll give him four pounds. He'll want two bloody lots in . no that's enough thanks. Two pound thirty yours. Two pies, one piece of fish , two pies. You sure, you want fish? Ah, we . Two pies, one piece of fish Excuse me let's eat tonight mind. Let's eat tonight. I, don't suppose Cor that . Sally. Sally. chip shop? No. No. No. No. I knew she, I don't think Let me . I'll just sit on the edge of your bed and eat me chips. Bring me chocolate Sally for the letter. Sorry. Where's me chocolates for the letter? Don't take her breath away. shops she said. The shops she well I've had me day off now. Was Mr in work today? You going out this afternoon? No. No. Your, your . No . Yeah. Ah, yeah,. That's nice innit? Good girl this morning. Yeah, well up to dinner now next week. I know, I've got plenty over there though. You ain't got plenty what is it, you've got, you've got paid and that is . never been . We've got enough over there for now. Yeah, but you'll be, still got to pay this week. I know. pay bloody . How much she got to pay? It only says pay a pound a week, I pay three pounds some week. Well only one week you paid three pound, come off it. Wendy. Two one week. Oh. What did you give me this week? One pound. I told you Last week, last week, last week, last week. I ain't worried about it Edna. I am. Are you? I don't want you to think well I give her more than that. No I don't. I don't know so much, how do I look, no doubt with her money. Ah anything over, anything over it's mine. what you doing with my cigarette? I know I give you three pound one week. Yes, last week. fag out . Last week you give me three. And then another week I give you two One fifty , no one fifty, one fifty. Two pounds? It's all down my love. I don't know Edna, I don't worry about it,. where's me lighter? Just give it to Sally. I had it, brought it back down, here it is, no, there it is. There it is. Yours. Do you want it? dinner. Yeah,dinner I think. Oh my purse is still open. Box . Oh shut up. Yeah aargh pinches everything. Pinches everything. I bloody to pack up I can smoke. I thought, I thought, he put a brick in my . butter. Milk bottles an'all. Had me . take home . be heaven when he starts work back. Ooh be lovely. We'll be over to dinner. Yeah. Be over to dinner. There you are see now have the cottage pie. Oh yeah. She'll burn her bloody mouth. Where's Tracy going, which shop is he going to? Whitby. shop. Can he get a pound of flour? Oh yeah . Pound of flour and half a pound of marg, and an onion. What? Pound of flour. Oh . I got a . Can you get a pound of f er self raising flour, half a pound of margarine please. Yeah. Good I, as I make you a pie then for your tea. Yeah. You got the ? Yeah she's got the corned beef. You got corned beef out? Yeah. I done the dish yeah. Got the corned beef . What you want? Half a pound of margarine and a packet of flour? Flour. Self-raising. Eh just any margarine? Don't have to be Flora, any margarine. The cheapest margarine they got. Yeah the cheapest. Echo, anything. Stork. Stork,. Happy Shopper. Yeah Happy Shopper, yeah. Freeman's is nice. Yeah. I think I'll have a . New Year, have a nice New Year. The it was all at our kitchen and . I didn't have any of it. You lying old toe rag. Ooh. Don't tell me . I makes them every year, I makes them every year don't I dad? Not having anybody in the no. No, not having a party this year. You having a party this year? Go in somebody else's house for a change. house. I shan't be there, gone out, going away for the weekend. What ? Yeah well I'll give her the fags, she can have the bloody fags. Ooh, isn't that lovely? fag. Let Dean have a couple. Ah. He's pretty good mine, isn't he? Well he's alright sometimes isn't he? He's pretty good, yeah. Yeah, I know you do, I said, I said you haven't been on the bus already? He said yeah, and, he said then he says ah, he said says what to think, I said what, about David, I said he never said . Well he was nice to know. an old age pensioner, yeah. Pensioner . He said , I'm taking this old age pensioner to Kingswood. Oh ssh now kind . Where's your potatoes Bet? I'll show you potatoes . Got any potatoes? Thanks to. Ooh, god. Edna, see a poor bloke walk up to. No, no, course you wouldn't . Have a bloody . Give you a lift anyway. Yeah . What's a night . Oh what a beauty, I've never seen one before . I hope all on this tape. Yeah. Think so . Ah that's . Bloody hell. Tell mum what's it for . get paid twenty five pounds for doing this, it's a Yeah. Erm Sorry. When they come round, er Market research. Research. Who does? There, you've got to tape people's conversation that's why I said . It's terrible, don't do it. over. What does it say,. It don't do where it come from though mum. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Let me see. Oh your . use. Pardon? This one's the best. you do . Where's your colander? Oh, under there. Under there. I David's been busy. Talk nicely now . Pardon? You have to talk nicely now don't . fish and chips. Fish and chips. Yeah, better get their hair done before the fish and chips . Well yeah . Well you better say that fish and chip joke. Ooh I Oh,. Yeah. Oh my god. You take him back in that . Yeah. If I settle back there's shouting say right I don't know her. Oh dear. Like it you saying you think some nice friends haven't you dear? No he'd laugh actually. Would he? No. I bet you anything he would. He would, he's quite a nice man. Yeah he's got a sense of humour. Yeah. You've seen . Got to be better than you. Oh he won't come in here, he won't come in here. He won't come in to anybody's house Bet, he wanted to get back. I don't blame him for one minute. No, I . I got to go and do all his cleaning . Well he can come and do mine after dinner. Oh no. I don't mind housework, I don't mind house No. No. I only does mine Fridays. I only do mine once a week, because I live on me own. , did with me old man. My place is filthy. And mine. Never clean. Ooh, I don't take a bloody notice now. speak of dust . No, don't take notice. Keep still Bet. Oops sorry. Am I going to do ? I could of done my work today though Kim and Richard came over when I was poorly she got the duster straight out she said nanny I'll polish the furniture because I knows you get upset. . Ah. Ah, nice little girl ain't she? Do you know what? Whatever . He's complaining because I, well it's as though we run a minute mile. No, no, I could fix the bike back, where's the lock to the bike, what's the matter, I want to play football, I want to play, where's me football kit,he wanted me to say your dad said you're not allowed to play football because it's too late and dark coming in. Oh please I want to play football, I said oh let him play, don't be so mean. Anyway he played football, what time did he get in? He got in about twenty five to five. Oh that weren't fair. Just as I was going to work. Oh that wasn't bad. Oh that's not bad is it? No. He sat in my armchair over and I said to him, well now nanny probably won't ever work again darling so I can't afford it so I'm not buying much this year, he said you says that every year. Every year. Don't we all. You says that every year nanny . I says to the little kid, when nanny and mums don't take , well I don't anyway. I don't anyway. I'm not David's dinner, because I might pop up to. the chip shop up the Reindeer are you? Yeah. I'll . Like a . You don't like it long over your ear. No, not really. Oh. And I'll go and lay the dinner because . Could of had rest dinner today could have all sat round. Yeah, yeah. Anyway I'll give . Never mind, don't worry about We can have all that out on paper and then . Now look, I don't want no talking about me when I'm . I'm going to talk about you. Get out, don't turn me off then I'll have the . I'll give it back to you then. Don't turn it on, I'll have the . When you I'll pay it back. Yeah , yeah, and you just take notice what I'm saying right. I are , I are. Alright then, and we're sorting this out when she's gone out, when it's gone out, but we're going to think about this eh doing things underhanded right ? Yeah. OK. Right Right. Oh don't just give us a song now . They need to give us a warning . That's it I . warning. I say, please don't talk about me when I'm gone. No, I shall have to turn on a dress out the club book where it says about Oh shut up Edna. and send it back. What ? Erm . to make one. ones. No. got that because . Do you want some cake, some cake ? You've gotta prove . As I've done Littlewoods for about eighteen years. Have you got proof that you swear it that ? Pardon? Have you got proof? Have you got proof now that you swear it ? it's on the tape. I, I'll have a lot work . Yeah. Go on then. Please don't talk about me when I'm gone. No I won't. going then? Please hear what happened. Yeah, but where's he going? Did I tell you what happened? No. I sat down . Let when I tell you Edna, I s , I do sing you see so I sat for . Sat down the bottom . Oh my god. I sang down the Bottom Club, so when I went down the next week the manager said I've just been waiting for you , I've been waiting for you to come in he said so he said, look the group can't come he said, will you sing? And oh Why you? Would you mum? I'm awful not what . Have you get up and sing mum? No. Why not? I've seen her in Italy cabaret. OK take care . See you. In fact I go or else I'll Why are we waiting waiting Shit Where's my ? I've got to go. Would you sing for him if I have my life to live over? That's Pete's favourite song. And mine. Aye that's my Pete's favourite song. I cry if I go anywhere and people sing . Do you? He loves that. years ago that was. Our nan use to sing where Kiss me, honey, honey, kiss me . I do it my way . Oh The girl is Our mam always used to sing kiss me, honey, honey because you're mine. Do you? Yeah. Oh I don't know . song. . Don't you? I said come and get me girl. Put the hair dryer on. mine . Go and put the on. I'm back love. You like ? Goodbye. See you later. Cheerio Edna. You not going to ask her now are you? Dominate . nice and out of the way. the tape's stopping. Tape's gone, tape's gone. Turn it off Bet. Tape's gone. Turn it off, or has it gone? I don't know, what did you do it? Put it back on. It's on because I can't turn it off. Right,. I thought that was ever so nice of Edna not to mind me coming. She, she didn't mind because she's winking and I thought ah isn't that nice of her, it is really because she organised it all and she don't know me so that was very kind of her didn't you think so Bet? Yeah. Well yes , that was quite nice. Yeah. What tea towel? There's one there. I want . Oh. to take . Where in the cupboard? Yeah. Here's Edna back again. Isn't it? Can you put this on top Oh up there mum. microwave up there. and er Put that there, will you? Up here, yeah up here. Right. You ask what I got Bet, alright? style. What have you got? And then I sat coming round this afternoon, so . Why did she get any of that cherry stuff didn't you? Yes, yes. And a erm Do you want anything else? Write it all down. Jar of marmalade. Doing nothing. Oh . If there's anything decent going on. salt mum? Pardon, yeah I put the salt in. See you later. OK. Bye Edna. Ah. Bet don't worry if we were all fat and . No . Sally's coming. Oh I know. oh dear tea towel. Where's you been out the back? Yeah. Right, come here . Oh look at the back of the door window a cigarette packet. Oh thank you my . Nice cup . Yeah. Yeah it just . They all be coming up to me saying you making mince pies again this year Dot. Where can I get erm, where can I get erm a pink to do the lattice on top of mince pies from . You can buy them can't you? Shall I get this out first? Yes please. You can buy them to do the lattice somebody told me. Oh I'd love one, because they look so nice don't they on top of mince pies? Mm. fish and chip. Finish Betty's hair. No. No, we'll eat. enjoy it. That's Clayton's. So he's still not . Here are Clayton. Did he?the the big lattice ones. No. Oh I like the big lattice ones, I, I, I made fourteen dozen small for the neighbours. We don't want do we? Throw it in the paper. Throw in the paper. well I like bacon. no use your fingers. Well I always use mine but, er Hey. You two, want . I don't know why you think I make a different No. I'll have a knife . Mm. Do you want ? Yeah in a minute. Feel free. Erm, is she going to see the doctors Sally? Yes, tomorrow, she can't get in till tomorrow morning. What am I looking for? Don't know. Can anybody tell me? Going in that room to all sit down? Erm Yes. What . I don't know I . You sit here, do you want to sit there? No Clayton you can't sit there. No it's his place really. Why can't I sit here then? Oh dear,. It's my seat and I'm sitting here. Right there's your some bread there. wrong. Just stay there. Where's the bread? Have you got a proper vinegar bottle? No, no. have that in of my mouth. Got a lot of . She's not. Gippy tummy. No cutting the sellotape with me teeth. Oh you silly girl. You've got proper salt thing haven't you? Wrapped all your presents up then? Yeah. mine wrapped up he said I'll take you over but you've got to have all your presents wrapped up, I said yeah alright. Good. I don't want . That was the way we became his followers, the way we got saved, it's the way we continue, it's the way and it's the only re the only method by which we will ever stand before him and he will usher us into his presence to stand eternity with him, through his grace and as we see others, not in a sense of condemnation, not in a sense of self righteousness or pointing the finger, as we see others we can say with that man of old who, as he watched the, the man being dragged, to the, to the gallows, there but for the grace of God, goes I, goes me and there but for God's grace, think of that most, that worse condition that you know, think of that person who has messed their life up more than any body else and er, who has made a total wreck of it, there but for the grace of God is you and there's me, oh thank God for his grace. I like us to think for a little while this morning just what it means to be a Christian, we've been hearing and seeing and been challenged and accepting Christ as our saviour and over the week in Harlow a number made that response and not only in Harlow and in Earls Court but right across the country and into Europe and into Africa as well, through the, through the life link, men and women who have been challenged into accepting Jesus Christ as their saviour and I'd like us to think for a little while this morning just what it means to be a Christian now obviously as we perhaps know er, and, and, and God work clearly shows to us that it is not in being religion, somebody well said that religion is man's attempt to find God but the gospel is God's method of seeking out and finding men and so just as the same as you've seen that bridge of life illustration and we try with our planks to get across to God we can't make it, the chasm is too great though the gulf between God and man is, is far too wide and we try our various planks, our planks of being good, of doing nice things, planks of being religious, of being confirmed, of being baptized, of going to church of perhaps attending church, perhaps even becoming a member of a church, the plank of saying prayers I think you know and God doesn't even hear us, the bible tells us, if I regarded iniquity in my heart God doesn't hear me, he says I will not hear you, the only prayer that God hears from the sinner is God be merciful to me a sinner and we've tried that plank and it doesn't work, of course it doesn't because that's not what it means to be a Christian, the plank of bible reading, we can read the bible, we can memorise it, it doesn't make us a Christian, Jesus said to some of the religious leaders of his days, you search the scriptures for you think that in them you have life, but you will not come to me, and so it's not being in religious, er being religious or any thing else as we well know, it's something far, far more fundamental than that, those words that Jesus said to Nicodemus you must be born again, that new birth, that new start, starting all over again, and so what happens, what's it all about, what is it to, what is it to be a Christian. You know very often, in fact usually the best way of working things out is to go right back to the beginning isn't it, it, to start off at square one and the trouble is sometimes we want to start in the middle, we want to pick it up where we think we can come in and it doesn't work that way, we've got to go right back to the beginning, and what is it at the beginning, well we look to see how God, what God's plan and his purpose for us is, how God made us, it tells us there in the book of Genesis in the first chapter in verse twenty seven, that God created us to be like himself and you've got to look in the mirror and I've got to look in the mirror, not just the glass mirror on the wall, but into the mirror of ourselves and realise we don't have to be intellectuals, we don't have to be astute observers, but even the very cursory of glances will show to us that were nothing like it, if God made you and me to be in his image, then something has gone wrong, but that's how we started, that is how he made us and in making us to be like himself that does something tremendous because it gives to men and women, it gives to human kind a status and a responsibility in creation, he did not make you and me like the animals, no matter how wonderful their abilities are, they've got tremendous instincts, they've got tremendous homing instincts, how that tiny bird weighing, weighing less than an ounce can fly thousands and thousands of miles, for the first time and come back, six, nine months later to the very spot where it was hatched out of an nest, now you can't do it, I can't do it, but for all wonders that God has put into the, into his, to his creative to his, in, in his creation, in animals, in birds and in other creatures, he has done something that marks you and I humanity out above and beyond all his others creation, he has given to us a status and a responsibility he never made any thing else in his image, but he made you to be created in his image and with that there's that status, were not just a more intelligent animal, were not just something else that God made even, but were that, that peak of his creative genius, the peak of it, the very pinnacle of it, not because of what we are, but because of the image, the pattern that he was using, his own self, created us in his image, so that gave us status but it gives us responsibility. Only see one way in which we are like God is in having moral and spiritual capacities no other creature has moral and spiritual capacities, they do not of the potential to worship, they do not of a code er, er, of moral laws, they're not governed by that, it's a case of, of the, might makes right, it's a case of the strongest the one that survives and the weakest goes to the wall you've only got to look er at a litter of pups and the last one is the one that's pushed to the back every time isn't it, there's no moral law there, those pups and the, and the bitch doesn't er work out, that because that one is weaker it should be getting more, more nourishment, it should be cared for better, it doesn't work like that in any thing else, but God has placed within humanity a moral responsibility and his place within as a spiritual capacity, were more than just animals, were created in his image, so God created us, capable of knowing him and growing to be like him and in his original creation they're in need of, the, the, the highlight of it was when he came down and communicated and talked with Adam and Eve there in the garden and shared his heart with them and there was this perfect commune between God the creator and man his creation, he never did it to any animal, he didn't go and talk to the trees and the plants perfect though they were, he never looked on any of the other creatures that he had made, wonderful though they may be, beautiful in their colouring, and go and talk with them, but he talks with Adam and he shares his heart with him his purpose is that Adam should communicate with him and walk with him and has fellowship with him, growing to be like him, but you see even though God created us like that, he didn't create us as puppets, it wasn't God up in heaven pulling the strings and Adam did that and Eve did this and that was how it were, God is not a puppeteer and he made as capable of choosing good and evil, he gave us moral choices, because he made us his moral beings and so we could choose to do this and not to do that, we could choose to, to do this and to leave the other undone. Let me just it's nothing special, it's only a circle, but if you were to take that for a, as, as an example if you like as a picture of God's purposes for us, you see the circle is, is, geometrical it's, it's, it's perfect, there is nothing that is odd about it, there is nothing er, there's no difference about it, it is perfect and that was God's purpose and God's plan for you and for me, that our, that our time, our being should be perfect in, in harmony with him, you think of all the things in your life personally, and then think of all the things in the, in the life of your com of our community, those things that mar it, those things that spoil it, those things that stop today be the perfect day for you that's not God's purpose for you they've all come as a product, a direct result of sin, it wasn't how God intended it, it wasn't how God made it, his plan, his purpose for you and for me was to live and to dwell together with him in perfect harmony for ever, and there representing that, but you know and I know that it didn't stay like that, I don't know how long, but it didn't stay like it for very long because sin crept in, that circle was marred, it was twisted, that intermit original fellowship with God was broken, let me read you a verse there in Genesis chapter three and verse eight, it's, it's Adam and Eve it says they heard the sound of the lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the lord God among the trees of the garden , for the first time since Adam had first been created they hide from God, they hear him coming, it's the time when God will come, and they hear him that were walking through the garden using picture language, and they go and hide, they're ashamed to see him, they don't want to look upon him, something has happened that perfect circle has been marred, what it was like yesterday, things are different now, there's that unclean feeling, there's that guilt complex, we've done it wrong, we've failed to keep what God's said, we've broken the rules and when you break the rules, it's not just the rules that are broken is it, you know it and I know it, in relationships, it's not just the rules that get broken, it's the relationship is marred. So Adam and Eve they go and hide, but it's not just Adam and Eve, but it's every one of us, they're just pictures, they're representatives of you and of me, they are the federal head of the human race, and Paul with his writing in Romans three, and verse twenty three reminds us, and J B Phillips in his translation, he puts it like this he says every one has sinned, every one falls short of the beauty of God's plan, that plan, that purpose that God had, not just for creation, not just for humanity in general, but for you as an individual, that purpose that God had, that beautiful plan, far better than you can could work out, out for yourself falling short of it, we've marred it, we haven't come up to it, if that circle represented just as a diagram as a picture, God's plan God's beautiful plan for you and for me still a circle, but dented here, bashed in there twisted, warped, it's in a sense it's exactly the same as the circle, you know you draw the circle it's a line that starts there and goes perfectly round and comes back to the starting point, it's exactly the same as that, but it's been pushed out at the edges, it's been dented in here, it's not recognisable now as that same circle, although it's what it is, and you see what, what has happened is although we've sinned, although we've come short of God's plan, God hasn't destroyed the whole thing, he could so easily just taken up the human life and crumple it up and thrown it on the heap, said finished with them, can't be bothered, I'll start all over again with new people, I'll have a new creation, well he did have a new creation, but he kept that same creation, he said I'm gonna work on it, I'm gonna do something with it, I'm gonna restore it, I'm gonna ransom it, I'm gonna redeem it, I'm gonna make it again, not just like it was, but I'm gonna make it even more wonderful and more beautiful. And so though we have all sinned and that circle, that perfect purpose of God for you and for me has been warped and distorted out of all recognition, the potential that God had for you and for me, it's been dis it seems to have been destroyed because of the warping and because of the impact of sin. What's happened it's the world again to use J B Phillips translation this time the Romans twelve two, that, that the world the precious around us has pushed us here and is as dented at there and it squeezed us out of the mould, the purpose the pattern that God had for us, into its own mould, a warped mould, a distorted picture, that has what has happened. As I said God didn't leave it like that, because God did in Jesus Christ what we could never do for ourselves, you see you and I at times we felt that I, I want to be different from that and we, and we pushed against one of these pressures and so that we pushed it out a wee bit, but as we've pushed there it's come back in somewhere else and as we've stopped pushing and we've gone to another bit so that first that has become, has come back as it was and we spend our lives perhaps running around trying to get the circle back again, it's an impossible task, we can't do it, we spend our whole lives in the frustration things and we, and we start blaming on things, if only that situation was different, if only those circumstances were different, but it's far, far, far more fundamental than that and we've gotta come to the place where we say well I can't do any thing about it, I've tried my hardest, but I can't do it, and that's where God comes and says hang on a minute I'll do it for you and that's what he did in Jesus Christ, he did for us what we couldn't do for ourselves, the bible tells us that Christ is the perfect image of God, it's in Colossians one fifteen and just er full verses further on in verse nineteen it says in him all the fullness of God, in Jesus, all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell and so in Christ God's son, God dealt with the problem of sin which had caused that twisting and that warping and that distortion, your life and in my life, that which spoiled his image in us he created us in his image, but you've only got to look at people today, you've only got to look at ourselves, see, where is the image of God, is that what God is like, jealous, filled with anger, bitterness, envy, is that what God is like, unclean thinking, is that what God is like that's not his image, but he created us in his image perfect and what Jesus Christ did on the cross, is to restore that image, that original image in you and me, to recreate us in the image of God, so in Christ God dealt with the problem which spoiled his image in us and he has to do it because of fundamental thing, he's gotta do it from the centre, you know you can get an apple, an ordinary apple and you can polish it up and you can have it so that it's bright and glistening and the red is almost you know it, it, it, it almost dazzles you the shining on it, it's got a real good polish on the skin, but inside, there's a grub, and all the polishing in the world doesn't get rid of the grub, and you see that's so often what we do, we polish and polish away on the outside, that's gonna make us better but it's only skin deep because inside the grub is having a field day, he's having a party of all party's, he's got an whole apple to himself and the grub of sin in your life and in my life is having, has a field day and we polish the outside and we try and make it look good and we be we become presentable and there like the apple on the market stall it looks good, it looks tremendous until you take a bite out of it and you see in the bit that you've bitten there's a, there's a hole going through and you wonder where the grub is, is it in the bit that's left or in the bit that you've eaten and this is just like sin you see in our lives and so God in Christ he didn't deal with the outside bit, he didn't bother trying to make our conditions better, he didn't bother trying to work on the outside, that's the difference between the gospel and social work and there's nothing wrong with social work, it's just that it's going, it's coming from the wrong end, it starts on the outside, it will educate people if we give them better housing, if we give them better circumstances, if we give them better wages, now all these things are right and that we should have them, but that doesn't make any difference, you see, the person is a sinner, all he becomes if you educate him is an educated sinner, if you give him a huge pay rise all he becomes is a rich sinner, if you put him in a palace all he becomes is er a sinner living in a palace, it doesn't make any basic difference to the person. He didn't use it this time, I remember a number of years ago here in he used an illustration of the pig, you know you can polish the pig up, you can clean it, you can scrub it, you can oh de cologne it, you can do all sorts of things with it, you can tie a nice pink ribbon around it and you can put it in a palace, but it's still a pig and it lives like a pig and you can cl and no matter how clean you've made it, it'll soon find some dirt to wallow in and the ribbon might make it look nice in the show ground but it doesn't make any difference to its nature and so it is with us and so Jesus didn't start on the outside, but he starts at the inside he deals with the route of the problem, in One Corinthians chapter fifteen and in verse three it says for I deliver to you as a first importance , this is the basic thing, he says to them this was the first thing that I said to you because it was the most important that Christ died for our sins, according to the scripture, what ever else Christ gives to us, what ever else he does for us, what ever else the gospel produces, the basic, the most important, the fundamental thing is that Christ died for our sins. One of the accusations used and levelled against er against Christianity against the, the evangelical message, against things like the, the mission of Graham and, and others is that it, it doesn't meet the needs the, the material needs of people but if you deal with the persons spiritual needs, if their sins are forgiven, those problems that are causing the material problem, it's amazing how there are dealt with as well, the best way to sober up a person, the best way to deal with a person who's an alcoholic, the best way to deal with a person who is a drug addict, the best way to deal with a person who, who commits adultery is not by telling them the wrongs of those things, it's not by trying to, to, to do, to, to, you know, to, to counsel them it's presenting the gospel allowing Jesus Christ to come into their lives and to forgive them, that will make the person sober quicker than all the counselling in the world and Paul says I brought you the most important the fundamental thing, that Christ died for our sins Paul again when he's writing to the Romans in chapter five and verse eight he says but God demonstrates his own love towards us, in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us so God did in Jesus Christ what we couldn't do for ourselves, so all of you have sin, so all of my sin, and he came and he died on the cross and as he was dying there was that transmit there, for he wasn't dying for his own sin buy he was dying for your sin and for mine, it was all piled on him and so when we except what Christ has done, when we come to that place and yes I believe that you died for me, that my sin was laid on you, now what happens is that our relationship with God is restored, that, that chasm, that, that gulf that we've been trying to get across with our good works with our church attendance with all these other things, suddenly we are, our land with a bridge across it, there's no longer a barrier there, there's no longer a great gulf there, Jesus Christ has bridged it, that broken relationship has restored and from this relationship the basis of that relationship we have the power to become as God made us. If you want in Colossians chapter one in verse twenty seven, it's, it's given again very simply, again can I use J B Phillips, he puts it like this, he says the secret is simply this, Christ in you yes he says Christ in you, bringing with him the hope of all the glorious things to come, so what God does he comes in to this situation that's marred that's warped, that's twisted and he comes in by himse , Jesus Christ comes into it, he becomes the central point, the focal point and that circle, it starts to get dealt with, that marred twisted like, it doesn't happen being like that, we knew creation straight away, we don't have to work at that, but he, as we allow him to dwell in us and to work out his purpose, he restores that relationship with God and God starts to fashion us, he starts to work on us and bring us back into how he originally created us. He re-introduces us to his perfect plan and purpose for us. There's, we, we've been struggling and trying to do ourselves and all we have to do is to allow Christ to come in to our lives, because he died to take away the sin, he dealt with the route cause of it, Christ in you, the hope of glory. And so we've got to desire to have our broken relationship with God restored, you see we need to receive what God offers in Christ, the fact that Christ died for our sins does not mean a thing to us until we say yes I accept it for me, I believe you died for me, I receive it, I'm linked into it, you see your house can be, let me give you a very simple illustration, your house is linked up with er Eastern Electricity and there is so many er I dunno what, what the what it is, but there is the power there, the there are, there are kilo watts of power on tap in your home, but in the winter you're cold, when it gets dark outside, it's dark inside the cooker, the electric cooker doesn't work, the fridge is not operating the food is going rotten, you can't watch a programme on television, why, because you haven't plugged into the source of the power, it's as simple as that, you can't blame the Electricity Board, it's not Eastern Electricity's fault it's your fault because all the plugs are out of the sockets and it doesn't matter what the Electricity Board does short of blowing up your house, they can do nothing for you and it doesn't matter what God has done in Christ until we as it were to also plug in, it doesn't mean a thing to us, but the moment we link in, that's the change, the lights come on, there's, there's heat there, the stove works, the, the radio, the television, the record player, they're all operating, the freezer's working, the situation has changed, we needs to receive what God offers us in Christ and John one in verse twelve it says but as many have received him, to them he gave the right, the authority, the, the power, to become children of God, even to those who believe on his name and this of course is what making our commitment to Christ is, it's receiving him for ourselves, it's plugging in, it's saying yes I haven't got that power myself, I am not able to do it I need you to come and do it for me, I accept that you have that power, you have that authority, you have dealt with my sin and I receive it for me, we trust Christ to save us from sin and commit ourselves to his kingly ruling our lives, we are as the bible says then, born again, new creations, we are made alive in Christ, I give you one verse in Colossians and in chapter three, verse four it says when Christ who is our life is revelled, then you also no sorry verse, verse three, verse three, sorry for you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God but you say that's all very well that, that brings me into the place of becoming a follower of Jesus yes I've accepted him, but what about all this pressures here, Christ I, I'm willing to receive them and to make the centre of my life, I've received that he died for me, but what about all those things that's twisting and marring and distorting my life, that's rubbing me, my life can be more, God wants it to be, well that's the great thing when Jesus comes, he doesn't just come and sit down and that's all there is to it, but he comes in by the holy spirit and as Christ is the centre of our life so he, as we submit to him and to his authority as we become obedient to his word, doing what he tells us, what he says for us, then the power of his spirit in our life starts operating, God the holy spirit, cos that's how we become Christians, we are born again of God spirit and God Christ was in us, not the man who walked here on Galilee, he is a man in glory, but he comes into your life and into my life by the holy spirit and he gives us new spiritual resources which help us to overcome those influences of evil that are pressing in on us and trying to, to, to, to distort our lives and depress it into its mould, those things that have spoiled our lives, he gives us spiritual power and spiritual resources over them. The holy spirit gives us a new prospective on life and it, it, it deepens our relationship with God, we don't have to try and make, make a success of our new Christian life by ourselves, you know it doesn't matter whether you've been a Christian for a week, for a day, for twenty, for fifty years, if you try to do it one day by yourself you are guaranteed failure, there is no way you can do it, it doesn't matter how long you've been a Christian or how short a period, you can not do it, if the great apostle Paul, he could, he said I can do nothing of myself he said I am not sufficient, for all my learning, for all the wonderful visions I've had, for the knowledge that God has given to me, that I've been able to write these great apostle's, he says that I cannot do it myself, I can't live this Christian life myself and the tremendous thing that none of us, no matter who we are, we do not have to try to make a success of our Christian life on our own, it's a partnership and God is the senior partner in it, he doesn't expect us to do it by ourselves, listen to what the, the, that, the same apostle Paul says when he's writing to the, the Gelation Christians, in, in chapter two, verse twenty, listen to what he says there, he says I have been crucified with Christ and it is no longer I who live but Christ lives in me and the life which I know live in the flesh I live by faith in the son of God who loved me and delivered himself for me, he said I don't do it by myself, why not, very simply cos he can't, he didn't know how to, he didn't have the power to do it he says but the life I'm living, I live by the power of Christ who died for me, who gave himself for me and who now lives in me now by the holy spirit Paul again when he's writing to the Philippians, in chapter four and verse thirteen, he says I can do all things, oh how arrogant of you Paul, how boastful you are , oh no he didn't just finish there did he, he says I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me, and writing to the Romans in that tremendous eighth chapter of Romans and verse thirty seven he says in all these things, in all the problems of life, in all the difficulties and all the temptations, in all the pressures that we are called to go through he says,in all of these things we overwhelmingly concur , we are triumphant he says, how, through him who loved us. So he has given, God gives this power within, power of the holy spirit, the indwelling Christ, in you and in me, so I've got no advantage over you, and you have no advantage over me and the person who's been a Christian for fifty years hasn't got an advantage over the Christian who's been a Christian for one day because that same power that raised Christ from the dead, hear that, the same power that God used to raise Christ from the dead, that is the same power that dwells in you and in me, that's what the bible says. If that power was sufficient, the holy spirit, if that power was sufficient to raise Christ from the dead, you not think he's able to exert that power in your life and in my life to make us live lives that are pleasing to God, of course it is so we don't do it ourselves, just let me in closing mention one other thing, this relationship we have needs to be maintained, you know for any relationship to grow, one needs to spend time with the other person, I don't give a lot of credence to the saying that absence makes the heart grow fonder, it does with somebody else, it's true, it does not make it grow fonder of that person the person is you know who you, you heard this story so often, like particularly like going back during the last war, folk who were separated sometimes for, for, not just for months but for several years, there they were in concentration camps perhaps, in prisoner of war camps, separated for years, they come back home they've got to get to know each other all over again you see that a relationship on a human level as well as in our relationship with God is dependent on, on association, it's dependent on companionship, it's dependent on spending time with the other person and in our relationship with Christ this is achieved by, by prayer, by knowing and understanding God's word, by having fellowship with other Christians and fellowship with other Christians is not just meeting them and passing the time of day with them, oh that's fellowship but it's far more than that is required, there's the fellowship in worship, we worship together, of course I can worship God at home of course I can do it, so can you do it and we, we should do it, but there's that re , there's that need, that requirement as God's people we come together to worship him in a corporate act, in the sacraments, in, as we mentioned in, in earlier on in taking the bread and the wine and remembering the lords death, there's a sense in which I can do it by myself I don't believe it's God's purpose unless there's no other alternative but to do it together with God's people, with God's family the fellowship of being together in our witness and in our service, this is the whole purpose of, of, of, of the church family, that we do things together, that we are together and then obedience to God's will. Let me just, just show you a little thing here just enclosing, just linking it up there, there it is, it's, it's a well known little picture, it's a picture of a wheel where there in the centre the hub is Christ, you see when the hub has got to be the centre otherwise the wheel does not run true and there with Christ is the hub, the centre of your life, the centre of my life, and you and I our lives our selves, there on the outside, were the rim and there's those spokes that hold it together and make it run true the spoke of, of the bible, God's word allowing him to speak to us, the spoke of prayer, our communion with God, our praying to him, the spoke of obedience following him obeying him, bringing our lives into, into line with what he says in his word, he says if you love me you will keep my commandments, that's why we've got to learn and get to know them from his word and then the spoke of fellowship somebody as likened them to prayer, being like air, our breath, the bible being like food, giving us nourishment and strength, fellowship, it's the family situation and in just as in a nature family there is, that is the place for care, it's the place for support it's the place of sharing, it's the place of love, where it should be, so God's family, and then the final one their obedience like exercise, keeping fit, it's the callisthenics, it's keeping the muscles toned, obeying what he tells us in his word, well that's what it means to be a Christian bringing ourselves into line with him and allowing him to re-fashion us in his image and it's a process that's going on all the time, Wesley and his hymn talks about us being used and the scripture being changed from glory into glory, till in heaven we take our place there, like him, John says when we see him, we shall be like him, but we shall see him as he is and that's God's purpose for you and for me, to be like him, and the moment we come to him and respond to him, the process starts and it goes on, day in, day out, night in, night out, week in, week out, over the years him changing and fashioning us into the image of his son, because that's how he created us originally, he created to be like him and in this new creation, we were singing we are a new creation, it's to be like him. Let's sing that, that little song we sang earlier, let's sing it again in closing shall we, that we are new creations in Christ what it, it's number one seventy nine, I am a new creation and whilst we sing it were gonna take up our morning offering, one hundred and seventy nine then. I am a new creation, no more in condemnation Oh, wow But don't say that, I can't Pipe down, sorry, get out. I'm not too good at seeing I'm sorry, I'm fed up of your behaviour, you get out too. Out, I'm fed up. Did you get that on the microphone? I'll put the headphones on and I'll turn it on loud so I can hear. I'll so I can hear. Excuse me I'm sick of your behaviour, it is bye. Let me put the headphones on and alright, I'll play that back. Pam, over Alright then. Can I listen to me going Glowworm through the I haven't got that tape, I've got a new tape now Okay if I do it now can I listen to it. Glowworm do, do, do, do, Glowworm do, do, do, do. No, I'm going to switch it off in a minute Hungry, ha, ha, ha When you're going let me hear now And, and I say, is that when you pay your friends for cakes or something, and you went no I wasn't actually explaining what it was Yes How you get in a sleeping bag and that, oh no yes, yes, and I said, and I said, you don't have charm or anything, and you go oh I do with . So you started, you wanted to go in your sleeping bag I never meant it like that, no, you don't go to the same you wanker I know, but you go in a different one That's what it sounded like I'll get in your sleeping bag Hey let me just go ha, ha, ha No, no hold on, hold on. No Just speak, just speak. hello See you can just hear it in the earphones Hello, hello , I can hear me, I can hear me talking now I know, just listen. Hungry, Ah, have you got any sweets? Oh, I can see Hugo. No, ow, Hugo, come and help us, oh my God it's so weird. Erm, oh er, in P E, erm, we're setting up tents, and I was the bats and I'm amazed, something just happened. Eh, hey, hey, you've cut your hand when you're doing Yes, but I, I, I didn't know, I mean I didn't feel that, I just realised my hand was bleeding and the skin's gone like that, look, the skin's gone like that. I've put a plaster on like that. Owen, did Owen, did Owen tell you what happened, how he was bunking? Yes, that's why they started beating each other up. Who? Owen, and Owen, do you have P E, they did, how? Owen said he wanted to go, and I said don't go, come over and hassle, so I and run off. you're sick Oi, gov., shift me, did you have French period off today? Did you have French period off today? Yes We did, I washed my hair this morning. But I, I've only just come in, so I'm well arsed. you look dead I never thought you were sort of like, sort of like a rough boy. I'm not a boy, a man. Yes, yes, that's what she erm, If you want to do that, you've got a son, then Can't touch it , what? Bloody hell No I haven't, oh, alright. Oh how are you then? Oh, hi Leon Oh, oh Why don't you comb that down? Why did you want it up? do, do, be do, do, be, do, Why did you do that David? What? Are you recording? yes, I'm recording right now. Are you? I have been recording for ages. No you're not. yes, I am now. Say speak, speak up to six notes and he thinks he's no, no, I, I can play much more than six notes of that, no Seven? Eight? No, no, about twelve, about twelve. Twelve, you can play twelve notes. I don't know, I don't know exactly there's too many to count. Twelve You don't need more than that many notes right now, especially with what I'm write , with what I'm playing. Twelve notes. And er, I've been learning flats and sharps and all that. You know your recorders are so shit. No they're not. Your recorder are so shit. Do you play it any more? yes, I used to. I used to want to work at the violin, and I played it for two years. it's a shame if you haven't got anyone musical here. Haven't what? Got anyone musical here. yes we have. So I like Guns 'n Roses. Well I have. You just learn to give it, you just always criticise me whatever happens. No If someone was good, you'd still say that about them No, I only could say it about you, you say You say yes, exactly, if there's a nice girl you know, you'll say, oh she's alright. And if she's really nice, because you just like criticising people. I only criticise you and David. Yes, but why because you're horrible? I, yes, because I hate you. Yes, that's not very nice, I thought I was your friend. Is that what to say to people you hate? No, but, I, I yes, but I don't hate anybody in particular. Who can I hate? Me No I don't hate you. why? I like you because you're my friend. But I'm evil to you. yes, you So I used you, yes? Oh yes? No You won't mind and picked up the obvious, and you're going to get out back to It's only Sarah and That's not true that's not true , no it's not. yes it is, it is don't say it isn't. Do both Owens know? No, Owen doesn't, O N, O M doesn't, so why do they always phone me up with their problems? It's er, I don't know, they're having a at us yes, are you. Going home. Are you still recording? yes, what lies. Did you get that bit erm, when I was speaking to you about how everybody hates you and stuff? I did. Did you. yes, I'm recording right now. Yes, yes, can I listen to it. No, I'm not listening to anything. Oh, you're bluffing. I am not You're evil, Satan You are Satan Yes alright, you're mad Leon, You're Satan, You're evil You're mad You are a killer, you are evil. You're mad. You're going to go away. let's look at the machine. Oh what fun. Bye Whew, Oh, so that's what the other side looks like, I knew all along. Whaa, whaa, yes, you're so stupid. For heaven's sake, put that in there,is that where all the money comes? Money, money. Oh, that's my bus fare home. oh, yes It is. you're the yak-chucker? So you're a coke man? Your lace is undone. I know. So do it up. Right, well look. Satan, Satan, Satan, Satan, Satan right then, I'll fuck off and you see how you like it, eh? Satan, Satan, Satan, Satan, Satan Satan. I'm not Satan. you are I can't possibly be You are Satan itself not seeing this. Okay let's go outside. Okay we're now outside. did you get that? You are Satan. He's Satan everybody, he is, he's Satan, you just be careful, he is evil Shut up. Leon, you're evil. I'm sure I am, but you're lovely. He's condensed evil, you are ,Everyone ask Leon because he's recording. He's not. don't cry. I'm not crying, I'm trying to pick you up. Come, come, come, ow, ow, ow, ow Don't pick me, oh, Leon, oh, oh. Ne, na, ne, na computer yes, er, you're hyper man, you're well hyper. Leon, I'm just going to talk to these girls. No come on over, Eh,Hello, what are you doing? What's this? Lessons. Are you? Do you just stay with neighbours, or just stay with your parents? Are you going on that? Her parents are. What is that, what's it about? Holidays. How was your holiday? Say that but. I don't know. Oh, is this the thingy? Oh yes, this is the , You went on holiday with Was I here? What Was there Who Was here Who was I don't know, you're later. What's the time for you please. Excuse me has anybody got the time. I have not have you got the time? have you got the time? No, yes. Erm,Twenty to, Twenty to Hugo One Twenty to one, no is isn't. Two, That would mean it's lunch time. You haven't got a watch. Yes, you have,you'll crack your ball. Remember it isn't twenty to one. I won't, don't worry, good. It's twenty to twelve you ignorant child. Who? He hasn't yes,then she comes and sits down next to us. Don't check their name. Who? It's no good, Simon isn't there. yes, he is. Yes, well he shouldn't see, cos he can, he can check his own name can't he? Yes, what do you want? yes, then we go to Is Naomi in? Yes, Naomi's in isn't she? yes, what about Lindzi no? Kari, Kari's in. in. Roy,great horse. Gail's in, and so is that Lisa. Ah, Naomi's not in. Is that a pen, I thought that was a pen. I, I just never had, I just threw it down sent the pen flying. What's the time? Erm, it's twenty to. No it's not actually. Keep violence off our screens says Mayor Oh Emily don't do that, erm, I'm still working with that, she goes like this, she goes Urgh, urgh, ow That is so wicked. That is mean. That's wicked. Wait until you see my moustache, it's a really long one down to here. it is so long And does it come off again? yes, it does. Open your mouth, did you, did you get all of that then? Lock you in No I don't want that. Wham, bam, be, do, bam, be-dam, bam, boo. Oh, yes Wham, bam, ba, loo-la wasn't it first?, or or something, Wham bam ba loo-la, that was crap when she said zombie, yes, I know, but When's the next time that we've got school after ? Erm, next, the Wednesday, not the next one, instead it's the one after I think. What sort of thing first? Are those eggs all done, they're cracked? I know. Oi, Get out of my hearing you Get out bloody you, get out of it. Right what do you want? You could have filled it in. Oh, aren't you funny? The king of diarrhoea. Bigger than you. No speaking first year language. what are you doing over here anyway? What? He can speak funny, er, what do you want? Water quand ne m'appelle tu? What are you in here? They're not, er, can I speak to you in French Are they having lesson in here in a minute, I think we're late. Shall we go now, I think we're very late because everyone's gone in Sim, come on, and you're, and you're it. Right, come on, come on Thank you. And she saw it dancing like a hole we're late Oh no Hold on, are we late? You are forgiven Leah? Is it really okay, I'm sorry it won't happen again. give us the salt? Oh, good that's alright then, I can be excused. No please can I have it. Yes, I need it. Are you doing Geography? Wham, bam boo, whop, bam boo Is that hot, oh, it's all cold. Oh yes It's cold. I could go to sleep Any of mine, I don't think you say whether they're does it? It doesn't tell you enough , erm, what What's in here?for report. It's no excuse. It's all down to me. I mean it's so wrong. Why? My friend's having a birthday party, and she hasn't invited me. Who? you don't deserve that. Because no told me, because like I've known her for all my life. Well who's the friend, who is she? Jenny Oh, Jenny Claire's Claire Claire's Claire Oh the other one. yes, I met her, yes I know. Maybe she just hasn't told you yet. Is there anybody else sitting here? Yes Both ways, we have to go in front, come on, Leon, Leon, sorry she's taken. Who? Cath Long, she's spoken for. Who by? No that big lanky kid. She always hangs round with him. That's right yes Who? Who? Why ? Because you just said you were gonna? I said shall I? Right then yes. Any, any excuse. I don't really care. why, if you don't care, then I'm not going to tell you. Some boy I told to give my work. A really bully. Wow No nice people Well this is interesting this, that that shows the differences very well. Very clear At the north of Italy, sixty percent of the co , of the lands north of Italy full exist, so look, what, look. Come to me, look I'm having trouble. tried. you know that? Country traditions are shown at the diagram, in North Italy erm, there's more land than south in the diagram. Sixty percent of the land is in North Italy, and forty percent is in the south. Population though, sixty one percent live in the North, thirty eight percent live in the south. People employed in industry which as you know today is er, a, an indication of how a rich a country is. Twenty seven in the south, thirty nine percent in the north. How much electricity people use only There just might be two the direction of that , what are we going to do about your hive problems? Much more in the north, one hundred kilowatts per, per head, and in the north itself is well under , cars, motorcycles, again in the north, much more lot of er, cars, and in the consumption of, of food Petrol consumption, What? Petrol consumption. Hubble, bubble, toil and trouble, again, people consume more food. Now all those show, all those indications show that the north is much richer. I'll be able to draw the little picture. yes, what we need to do is this. In the middle I want you to draw a picture of each item, and then, the land population , industry, and why food production, Sam you're not listening. oh, it's h , hard doing Geography Can we work in pairs? You're free to draw a picture and diagram and then Better call, better call composition. Mm? You can, you can design any kind of picture to illustrate the land in whatever Well whippy do Actually most is either hills or mountains, if you look actually you can draw a picture of a hill or a mountain, but most, most of the land er hills or mountains which is very interesting isn't it? What a stupid mess Get up oh God, my man he really pigged out this morning. God, you're right. You know the lions? Do it in your head this time. I couldn't to that. Why not? That would be bad wouldn't it. It would be bad for my fucking head, but you must be very in They can ask you anything and he'll tell you the truth. You just ask. Right who do you fancy? Are you gay? Leon. you're mad Millie, have you just farted? No it's the with the gasket off. the one I bought just went out His eyeball went just up and I can see that, I can see round your eye, oh, God and I can see from the corner like in your head. Oh good he looked, he did look There you are, good Oh , oh this is going to be lovely it's got a magic button Here Yes sir, what do you mean? it's er, hey I don't think you're right, what have you been drinking? or anything, Lemonade? What? Ah, I can't find my yes I am, sorry. I can't smell the good ones. I didn't know like this, M S from M S for Matthew something, Stevens, who's he? don't worry. Shut up, I did those, I did those, but I just want to oh, yes sir. Millie why don't you go up there Erm, yes, yes Sir. Millie Why, is there, is there a law against that Sir? Is there a law against that? I would say there was, is there a law against that, no, My God gentlemen, please shout to fuck off , no erm. Oh, eight, nine, ten. I feel sick. You're looking at anti-log. Who do you know boy? I don't know, I came to say to tell him to fuck off. I'm going to nibble your balls. Sam, Sam, have you seen the glue please. Have you seen, do you read the Big Issue? Yes, we get it all the time. I bet your mum pays it, give me back that fiver. No she has to do it, she has to do it instalments. No, go on. Yes, we bought it, and there's this thing that says Big Bess let's rip Oh yes, yes, yes Cock-sucking, ball nibbling, going down Yes I know I don't find that funny, only you Blow jobs And they're saying you still get Aids from these Yes people are still human, I mean, people Kissed after having sex. I don't know who it is? Then again he, he, he's the youngest here. he's suffering, it's bad about laughing at your own jokes that, you don't do that. Mm, you're just so immature that you're Everything that you see you laugh at, you're lucky he always sets you up Oh shut up Oi, you lot, you've got to give us a bit of because he's the youngest here, Atchoo, Atchoo. He's the youngest, definitely. Erm, he hasn't grown up yet. Erm. I mean, how old is he? You're twelve aren't you? I am twelve actually. Damian's twelve. he's in the first year Wankers and Playboy's under his bed, he gave me a and I goes I know his dad I go, I, I prefer Penthouse,actually. Well we'd better do some work you know. Oh yes. You're not hanging round the hall. No, he's run out. I know. Can't even keep for five minutes. Sorry, I'm sorry. Start again. I will, because I've been recording all this. Have you. From the bang in the head. Oh, yes, Casey there's something I've been wanting to say to you. Casey. Casey, here, here, he's popping the question. You're fucking flaming cow. You're so bad beat him up. I really hate anybody who's being horrible to somebody because it makes me feel bad. Oh, stuff you bighead. Oh no, no, no, please, turn round I'm going to do something in that slip. You've didn't you? I could be on drugs, I could be a monk. I thought I was a , ya. Silly sod. Yam-ma, yam-ma, yam-ma, yam-ma, yam-ma, yaa-ma Oh, don't you start yam-ma, yam-ma, yam-ma, yam-ma, yam-ma, yaa-ma. Yam-ma, yam-ma, yam-ma, yam-ma, yam-ma. chewing gum Speak up, erm, K O then This is a fight. Oh, do it again. Action replay. Sir, sir could you come here please. Sir, here now. Sir we need your help now Sir, erm, could you please come here ,Luigieans, what? Comedians. Oh, I thought you said Luigieans. Luigieans, who are they, Erm, your orgy is a food orgy. What did you say? Your type of orgy is a food orgy. you become anorexic. Are you a scientist?, did you see This Morning or something? All these diets make you emaciated. I saw This Morning when out. I'm glad now I missed it. when she was younger she was just You know they're talking about and, the Queen, and the Princess and they're talking about the sh Princess Diana's anorexic. yes, I'm taking sides. Bulimic, bulimic. yes alright, bulimic. But not any more she's not, well. Did you know that, you know when Freddie Mercury sang with that really fat woman? that's a fat young girl he didn't go out with her, that's really I know yes, well she hasn't got bulimia because she's fat, has she? I saw this, I saw this programme , I saw his programme and it said, no, listen, listen, no listen, bulimia's where you eat too much No-o-o ooh, ooh, Shut up Sorry No, bulimia, where you eat anything, and you puke it up all up, You eat, and eat and eat, and then you throw it all up. So you have a bilge, and, you eat loads of cakes and then instead of like you with pizzas down there, they just throw it up Yes, as well, binge, binge, not bilge Yes, binge, they put it with it to stay skinny Bilge, I'm still having a bilge Oh, what a sucking somebody left a bite mark from where they were Ah I was saying this morning, in fact it was on This Morning, or Good Morning, or Hey, I'm bulimic Anne and Nick I think What? Anne and Nick type problems. Yes, they were they were saying about Shush, let her talk. They were saying about they keep asking her because she could be like page three models in the newspaper, she was like very even this really and then she just said I keep on going toilet and she'd, she'd then puke up in the toilet and she'd come back and there were all these bite marks so her parents could see when she was doing it. Anne and Nick are really shit, Anne and Nick are really shit, la, la, la, la, la Oh, what happened? Oh, nothing, but she, you could see the way she had, her whole hand up from here in, you could see she had bite marks you know, she can't get it out, and then she starts to puke over it, and it comes out You go, I'll make you sick. How do you do it? I said how did she do it, did she, did Jane ever do it? What? I don't know if she did. Well what's she talking it about it for then? I don't think Jane's bulimic. Why was she just talking about it? We've got to be quiet though, she might be a bit touchy? Millie, why was she just talking about it? Because she's saying that she can't make herself sick. She can't? No. Can I borrow a pencil please I can't, I hate being sick, I can never make myself sick. They were taking her tonsils out or something. I'd get to about there, just about like that, and then I couldn't do it. I hate throwing What I do, water, and they Yes, I mean it's all. No, your mouth's supposed to water. You get all, you get all goo , you get all goose-pimples on the back. yes, and then I feel really hot and then cold and then I start to feel queer. yes, Sir, Sir,please could you come here. I know, I know, I know,and you go, and you're, and you're kind of up, up No Owen, that, that's how it doesn't come out, that's what's happened to you. And nothing comes up about five times, aargh, and I, I'm and your mother comes round and catches you, aargh urgh, and you sick it all up again, I couldn't eat a thing, I couldn't eat anything for two days. Really. Sir, sir, we're trying to Sir I was eating my, I was eating my supper when he started Erm, d'you have to do a picture for the north and south of it, or just one overall picture? I don't understand, I don't understand, I don't understand Yes, this one here, it should be one overall, it should be just one overall picture of the item like the land, and this shows the different proportions of land in the north and south. Of if you want to separate the picture into two, you could draw a picture representing the land in the south and the land in the north. It's up to you really, how you do it. I'll just do one picture. One picture's fine. One picture of what? Land? Yes, just to illustrate. This is the item, Yes. You draw a picture representing the land, How can you draw a picture representing land? Just draw a mountain and a river Well if you were listening , you see, I said, most land in Italy is mountains and hills, so you could draw some hills and mountains, that'd be really good. So, Sir, shall I tell you how, you know people when you talk, or we're not supposed to talk. Sorry Is that like on the board, talking, when you're talking it's really rude. I wish you, you should ask them to read out, read out the O M because then people become more involved in that. Leon, can I borrow a rubber please? I'd be asking, I'd be asking er, them to read out all the time Can I borrow, can I borrow a rubber What? Can I borrow a rubber please? yes, yes, yes. There we go. No a rubber A rubber, a boring old rubber Can I borrow a pencil a minute? I haven't got one myself, I haven't got a pencil I haven't got a sharpener. You lied to me Millie, I don't like Oh thank you Sir. Oh, But I mean, you're so pleased. Oh, I'm not. But if that was me, I always start laughing. They say I would be I wish Quite nicely actually No, I mean if that was my pencil case. If that was me I'd say ooh, you silly bitch Ha,that's my rubber you're using There's Millie, look. You and your rubber, you're never going to use it again. Don't Owen. Thank you. Why you? Do you have a curly-whirly pencil? Oh, yes Wicked Who else went They're really crap, oh no, put them on the top of your old pencil. it's like a little mask look,a little mask. It's like that mouse, that, that finger mouse. do you watch that finger mouse? No I have, I have, I have well I can do down in fits in someone's hair. Wow, that's manic Oh wow, right who shall we say kicked me too? No don't waste them, no. Why? What are you going to use them for then Millie? Shush. Kick these and stuff. I don't, I write with one yes, right, who sh , who shall we say kicked me? or punched me? Yes, and No, not Mr. I've got a describe about Who is it? Mr. McCartney So kick me, yes? No, Right, er, kick Fuck me, kick me I need a man. You can put that on my back, I'm going to Kick Did you see Mr. McCartney's car? He's got something red I know. Don't it's my job. Who's got a green colour pencil ? Bulimic Bulimic You bulimic Bulimic buffalo There, who's, who wants to get on somebody? We're chickens. , What? Don't mind me. right then. It's packed lunch yes, yes Why do you ask that Millie? I want an answer. Yes, I want to ask that, do women's tits suit you? The fi , the first thing that comes into your mind You're so perverted, you're so perverted You're obsessed Owen, you're to do is women's tits so no, God, that, that's all you think about. Urgh That's quite good actually, Jo, look, that joke. I knew, only you knew, you, you, you You can hardly Look I knew you, you, you You couldn't get away with it. I still worked it. Alright, picture one represents some land, how do I draw land? You do that. But that's mountains though, not land, isn't it? It's twin peaks. Are they twin peaks? Oh that's lovely that, shame about the picture. Jane can I borrow the yellow one? God it's better than mine. That's impossible. Oh, that's wicked Sarah. I know But the yellow isn't making much difference, so start again. Right, it's not too late to start to again, I, I'll chuck this piece of paper away for you. Okay,how do you draw a desert? They don't have deserts in Italy. yes, but I mean that's land, that looks, people might think it means mountains, and when they read that, then they read that bit look Are those all that then? What's going down First you're a I know, but I mean, how do you just draw flat land? Who's got the rubber. I told you before you just do flat land. Just do grass Flat land? Green, green grass that grows on the hello, hello, hello, shut up Leon, you're a silly wanker. neighbours. I think it's weird. That uncle it's weird, it doesn't go with us, it doesn't go for soap though. I know And the little boy walking round there with a walking stick They try to make it more cool that that, then haven't they?. Yes, more corny more like, but it's really There's a new boy in it, and he's well nice oh, that, that one that Yes, I know they just gave me a little walk on part. What new boy? In, in, in the beginning, with Mar , he's pictured with Marco and somebody else. Yes, I know, there's a new person. He's a new person, he's not actually in the series yet, but he's in the beginning you know. He's so lovely. Yes, yes. They put a picture of them, yes. Nice They said well, they asked me and I just couldn't refuse That's wicked I want to get that. ooh, yes, I want to get that ooh, yes, ooh yes. Are they your colours for that. yes That's why I went to get them. You can either stick these ones You were saying and then you finished in mid-sentence. Shut-upa-your-face. Shut-upa-your-face. Or I bring out my mates. Have you got pencil. Fill up your face. You touch my face, I break your face. You touch my face, I ring up my mates They talk like that in Italy, yam-ma, yam-ma, yam-ma, yaa-ma. For goodness sake yam-ma, yam-ma, yam-ma, yam-ma, yaa-ma, ma, ma, ma, Jason please. Are you going to put that on someone Kevin, What? Put that on somebody's back. Mama he's cheap. yes, exactly. No yes It's isn't it? Well go on do it then, it isn't as if it's your handwriting. No, but he, he will know, I mean No he won't, he won't. How do you know? Okay man, Urgh. Population means people doesn't it? yes. No population means It was really funny when Sarah hit that stump Yes, is there any more yellow? I haven't got it. Oh, I love the river , no, no, I'm not. You do, let's all be cats. My name's cat. Your face is , have you got any yellow anywhere Millie? You're shits cat No, it's over there Sorry. Oi, oi, oi, oi, can I borr , that re , that ye , yellow please? No sorry. yellow, Jane can I borrow the yellow? No Jane, I hate drawing people. Arthur, Lisa might be living at my house. Why? College. Has she been chucked out by her parents this time?her boyfriend No her parents don't want her to go. Oh that's lovely Millie. Nice colours, that looks like water colours. Yellow please mother, he's just trying to piss you off. I think she started it by accident. On purpose? No he started by purpose the silly He's starting it by purpose. Can I have a yellow please? You get it straight away, oh God. Blue please, now. Go and get it. I've got it. Oh, who's got the green? Everybody dancing Can I borrow that yellow after you Millie? Yes, maybe. Who's not had them? Me Me There's a new zone in the Crystal Maze. I know, It's not a new zone much. Oh. Underg , under water isn't it? Yes Sonic two zone ha. What are you talking about? You have to copy everything I do, don't you? Who, when, where, yes,I didn't do a river, I can't do my own work. Who's going to be the crystal palace? No Millie Sorry, what did you say? It doesn't concern you. So you have to know everything that's said don't you? That's why everybody really hates you. Why they can all drown, Oh my God, C H is the bottom of Mark's Gogh, man, Van Gogh. It's a right picture,she's done little flowers everywhere She's written Jane ninety three on it Don't want a big population on it. It's sick man. You've really ruined it. Shut up Can I borrow the green please? Can I borrow the green, right now Oi, Millie why do you have to shout? That's the only way I get through to you sometimes. Oh, that's a masterpiece Leon. Thank you. Oh, goodie, goodie. The population You can see him pull the veins off on the way, hey? Millie you're showing me up with your picture, it's not very good. Let's see your's. I wanna see the No you don't want to be dead. can't get Okay, okay monitor, I, I, I Anyway, let it be. It's lovely Steve, especially the bit Can I sign those for accuracy, please? I'm taking the silence to be assent. Matters arising on those minutes on page one. On minute one one four, I'm using my privilege as a chair to hang on to that; the fact that the Poly are to hold a conference on health and housing in the new year. I've asked that members be invited to that, I'm sure some of you'd be interested to do that. You may recall that this committee has asked for a health and housing conference but we seem to get under it rather a lot of times, nothing it appears to be happening. Can I have your agreement that we write to the director of housing and ask for his position on it? Will you agree that we do that, rather than have the same thing coming up time after time. Anything else on page one? Also on that, chair, just to clarify the situation, because I know it's a bit vague, we are erm asking the health authority to run the erm meeting with other local authority counties, do you remember? The referral agency's to be in B? Right, lovely. We're doing that. Great, thank you very much indeed for that. On page 2, matters arising. Sheila? One one six, chair. I would like to congratulate the officers for that day. It was a very educational day, but extremely harrowing afternoon, which is still living with me. And I would like to say at this point I was very disappointed that we didn't have any other conservatives with us in the afternoon. Could I suggest probably in future that if we do that we have the harrowing parts in the morning so everybody can see it. Can I say about that little dig at the conservatives, I did actually have No, we were expressing our sorrow, Graham, I assure you Yes, well, I have had a recent case, erm of within the ward that I visited, so I am aware of having the number of problems in the past, I am aware of the problems, but I could not for personal circumstances do the afternoon that day. I understand, Graham I do rather resent it when there are other council committees, there's Town Hall Strategy Working Party in the afternoon, now if we're going to be sure that we can all get to this without conflict with other committees, erm I had to be there on behalf of the Lord Mayor because she had duties, erm and I was very sorry not to be able to come, because I have dealt, visited many occupational, I wanted to visit the officers, and you know, it isn't always possible where you have a conflict of interests. Is it possible perhaps if when we have another day, I take the point that perhaps the morning's but then again we're bound to miss something else, If we can have it a day that is clear of other city councils It may be Could meet before that if we pass on some of your comments at the end of the section, maybe they'll be able to arrange, maybe in two or three months time a visit that most of us can make, particularly those of you who missed it, because it is an important experience, but obviously quite difficult to arrange, because it involves real tenants and real people but we can pass that back, and I'm sure the officers will consider it. Chair, erm on that, if that could be arranged in two or three months time, perhaps we can see how the Charter of Commerce is working out, because I think many of us are very interested to see how it is working out, we could erm discuss with somebody who's in bed-and-breakfast, who could then erm tell us how the Charter of Commerce is working. Very appropriate remark, Michael, the charter is up for review at any event, very shortly, because it was on a six-month trial as it were. So I agree with that, thank you. Page three? Yes, on page three, one twenty, chair, we asked for a date, the date of that conference is the thirteenth and fourteenth of December. That's probably helping Nora. It's not on the minutes, but just to remind you, the thirteenth and fourteenth of December, thanks Tony. Is it to be in the Town Hall? Is it in the Town Hall, Tony? Blessed if I can remember, chair, no. In St Catherine's, Vice Chair suggests. Page four? On page five, those of you who were at the last council meeting will know that the City Centre Management Working Party were charged with the responsibility of looking at the whole issue of street trading. They have now done that and they will be making a report, I hope, fairly shortly, either to us or or both. On item four on page five, you'll see that we said ‘relevant papers to be sent to all members of council’. Pragmatically, I suggested to the officers that a summary of those papers be sent to all members of council in the interests of saving paper, and that if you see something you want to know more about, you then go and talk to David Turner, is that agreeable? Otherwise you will be inundated with paper. Item one two four, Highways and Traffic do not agree with us on touting. And I'm sure we shall sit quietly over that. Page six, Matters Arising, page seven, yes? I was just going to ask if we have a diary? Tony? Not at this stage, chair, next committee you should have. Thank you. Okay? Can we use item one two nine on the minutes, first of all to say that some of us were at the H I V awareness training session last week, with Robin, we enjoyed it enormously, she's hiding behind the thing. Looking for the right word! So we want to say ‘thank you very much’ to Robin, and also, this is our opportunity to learn officially that Robin is leaving our employment, I think in February? Yes. And it's an opportunity for her and me to say a couple of words to us, and for us certainly to thank her very much for her service. I just wanted to let you know that in February, won't be hiding behind an OHP, erm I'll be taking up a post with the European Commission, working with Aids services throughout Europe. erm I'm very sad to be leaving Oxford, I've very much enjoyed working here, and it's been good to work for a council with such a high commitment to H I V, and to fighting Aids, and erm I very much the support I've had from the committee and I hope it will continue erm in this way. So thank you very much. I'm sure Health committee's commitment to the post will continue. And I'm sure I speak on behalf of you all when I say thank you very much indeed to Robin, you've done an excellent job, and we shall miss you. Thanks. Can I chair just draw your attention to one or two items. I hope this committee will, since everybody else is doing it, yet again, my absolute, the officers and the management on Northway Community Centre It's on the agenda Betty, you'll have another bite at this cherry. Oh is it? Yes Oh, sorry, right. Anything else on page seven? Most items are on the agenda, actually. On page eight, item one three two, can I draw committee's attention to, says she, feverishly flicking through the pieces of paper, to a letter that John Patten has written to us, you'll see what we asked Amanda to do on our behalf, Amanda Root, Women's Sub also asked her to do that, and John Patten, surprisingly enough has written back, his private secretary has written back, she continues to say, ‘Mr Patten is used to getting communications from Chief Officers conveying the views of committees, he has never had any correspondence from Sub-Committees through other officers’. Now, I wonder whether the opposition members might not like to take that up with their M P. I think an MP is there to respond to correspondence, and I'm very surprised that he takes issue with one of our officers because she doesn't happen to be the Chief Officer, and I'm very sad about that. Can I just ask, I'm not usually a member of this committee as you know. So you might be out-of-order in speaking, in fact. Can I say that sub-committees, as I understand it, report to main committees? Yes they do. So, in fact, had that decision gone to the main committee, or is it going, is it coming here now. This was a decision of main committee, on page eight. I understood it in fact from what you said that it was a decision of the sub-committee. Women's sub also happened to say the same thing. Yes, Mavis? Sorry, if I could just clarify, I was actually at the meeting of Women's Sub, erm as was Robin in fact, and they, the Women's Sub-Committee considered the minute of this committee, and endorsed erm, in fact, Amanda didn't write until the meeting of women's sub, because it was being considered by them, but erm they didn't add anything substantial to what was this committee had said and they did. I just think it is, in fact, a great shame that the MP only acknowledges some letters if they happen to have the kind of status that he appreciates. I don't think there's a defence for that. Betty? Well, he seems to have been conspicuous by has absence in respect to these things. He has been invited to talk to other committees in the past and has decided not to do so. Now, I don't take very kindly to that. Whatever he thinks of the political make-up of this council, he owes a duty to the city and to his council. And I think this is a an another example of how little he seems to care for this city. Well, on the specific issue, which is item one three two, are we agreed that we write quite clear but nonetheless firm letter to Mr Patten, explaining that we are minded to ask him to comment on these matters, it this time comes from the Chair and the Chief Officer about and perhaps he will therefore take it more seriously. Are we agreed that we do that? Graham? I was just going to say that I'm sure he it's not that he didn't take it seriously. It may well be he felt that there wasn't necessarily the full authority of the city council and administration sub committee. Now clearly, he responds every day to individuals of the public. Here, I can only think that he was saying, ‘well, we don't know that there's the full authority of the city council in this view’, but erm I'm not going to put up a defence, I just think that what we do is basically stress from yourself and from the chief officer that we do want this file known. Could I have a copy of the letter, please, can I take it up? You certainly can, Anne, thank you. Other matters arising on page eight, you'll see on item one three four that we did investigate the possibility, did we, have we got a response on that, of an officer being part of the joint care planning team. I wonder if the county have responded to that, yet? We haven't had a response. We haven't got a response, fine, okay. Item eight, any more Matters Arising? Item, erm sorry, page nine, on the Food Safety Act, we did write, the Chief did write, to Andrew Smith, to ask about the position on the Food Safety Act, as far as monies go, and I will read you the response, it was a question in parliament. ‘The Government has estimated that local authorities in England will need to spend twenty four point seven million pounds in ninety-one, ninety-two to carry out the additional duties resulting from the Food Safety Act. This additional cost is being taken into account in a total of aggregate external finance. The post to be twenty-six point oh five billion which will be distributed to Local Authorities on the basis of standard spending assessments. My Right Honourable Friend will be announcing our imposing Standard Spending Assessments in the near future.’ The implications for us are that we shall have to find it very hard to ensure that we get a share of that grant to spend on implementation of the Food Safety Act. I would suggest that the government would be a lot, lot better adding a ticket to amounts of money, which said ‘You either spend this money on implementing the Food Safety Act, or you don't get it.’ Future Labour Government's committed itself to doing that, and I would suggest that the Secretary of State should do it, because we're not guaranteed to receive that money at all. erm Anything else on page nine? erm On Nestlé, Chief's reminded me that we have got, I received today, a long letter from Nestlé, basically saying they won't be coming today. I shall make that letter available to the solicitor who we have asked to check out with Estates, and with other authorities regarding the way forward, if we wish to make any public statements about our dealings with Nestlé. I'm not putting it around the table, because it's a very long letter, and I don't think we could have a worthwhile discussion on it right now. Yes, chair,actually gave it to this headed copy of it to consolidate erm with regard to contacting Leicester and Leeds Councils that have also sort of taken action against Nestlé, that's still being done. The officer at Leicester's not available at the moment, so he hopes by the next meeting erm if Leeds have an opportunity to see that letter, and perhaps have a short report on what this council does with respect to Nestle/1 and also what other councils have done. Michael? Yes, erm, going back to the original thing that brought this up, that we should descry people from using Nestlé's products, erm, in fact implications will be quite wide, because they now own Rowntrees, and they own Cross and Blackwells, and they own all sorts of other companies. Now, is it the intention of the people who asked us to take this action that we should just boycott Nestles products, or we should do the whole range of the conglomerate that owns all these people like Rowntrees and Cross and Blackwell, and many other companies as well. Because this, erm, I think it's quite far-reaching to erm get all hot on this, and I don't think we realised the full implications. Yes, the implications are very heavy, I had not realised what you'd just said, and we should refer that to Amanda and indeed take all take it on board, otherwise we'll be taking on the world. Yes, probably should. And probably should, yes. Item one four oh, believe it or not, Doctor Root did write to Mr Patten on this issue, and guess what he wrote back? ‘I've received a letter from your Health Promotion erm Liaison Officer, can I ask you if this was sent on your behalf?’ ‘On which committee meeting was the letter considered?’, he doesn't trust anybody, this guy, does he? I propose the same action again. He's obviously keen on structures and procedure is the Right Honourable Gentleman Must be a past experience! Yes. Well, he's taking a lot longer and costing us a lot more money in terms of letting us know his view. Actually, to comply with the minute, it should go to the City Environmental Chief Officer. Yes. Well, as you know, we always say the City Environmental Health Officer, and the officer responsible then does the work, we've seen to that on our committee for years If you look at a department like the Director and Engineers department, every letter in fact has underneath it the City Engineer, even if its signed by somebody else. I mean it is a possibility, and if he's going to be awkward perhaps we'll have to just make sure that we do that, which is presumably fairly easy, if the post goes out from the same office. I take your point Anne, but I would prefer to help the MP understand that the nature of the way that this department is run is that officers do take responsibility for their specialist areas of work, the senior management has always supported that, and I don't feel minded to change it because the MP finds it difficult. Well, I certainly will take it up if I get a copy letter, I mean it is obviously that some departments act differently, and I understand that in any case this is only a letter from the secretary, it's not him, so I mean, I'm quite happy to take it up if I get the copy of that, and explain that this department act, does rather differently from some of the others. And we shall certainly do that as well. Chair, the letters that do go, the majority of the letters that go to MPs and members are signed by me, though they're prepared by the officer who's the expert in different fields, but these two letters went when I happened to be away from the department, and that's fair enough, I'd rather they went than sat around waiting for my return. But, they also go on headed note paper which says Oxford City Council Environmental Health Department and all the other stuff we put on the top, erm and it's perfectly clear that they do come from the City Department upon your behalf. He's being awfully bumptious, let's be honest. Chair, can I just help you here recently, because we've had a recent case ourselves erm, this is an ironic twist to this, because Councillor Patten's being writing to the County on Highway and Traffic issues recently and sending us a copy, and it's stunned us a little bit, because normally they would write to us direct, but there's a sting in this because we don't know whether we're supposed to respond to him now, or the county. And the county don't send us copy letters, so, chair it does need sorting out as far as we're concerned as well. It really does doesn't it. I can see the Press headline: ‘MP with knickers in twist’Anything else on page ten. Okay, apologies for absence and substitution. Chair, I have none, I'm afraid. May I say that Mrs Kurtz, I would have thought has sent her apologies, and I'm substituting for her Sorry, I should explain to the committee that I was informed that the secretary who normally does the minutes for the half past one was sick, and had, she'd been sent home by her doctor at lunch time, so I came back from lunch and had to come straight into committee, and I do apologize if I have missed bits of paper or whatever, I've gathered up everything I could, but that might well be one of the things that I've left behind. We accept that Councillor Kurtz would be honourable in these matters, do we accept Councillor Tiffany as her substitute. Yes They're not saying a lot are they? I had erm I was going to be representative of this committee at a erm safety seminar for three days at the beginning of this week that I wasn't able to go to, and Councillor Kurtz has very kindly gone in my place, which is why she is not able to come to this meeting. Ah, well in that case We do appreciate that explanation. No, I think sometimes it's forgotten not all that many, you know, these remarks about us not being there. There's not many of you! Only three that can be there and We're quite happy that there's not many of you Anne! Okay, so we accept that Councillor Tiffany is now substituting Councillor Kurtz and may now take her full part in the meeting. Can I just ask your permission for our proceedings this afternoon to be tape recorded by Caroline, and I've forgotten where you come from, Caroline? From the University Press, from Oxford University Press. From the Oxford University Press. Will you need to know why she needs to tape record? Thought you might! Yes. Would you like to tell us, Caroline? Yes, it's for the dictionary project, we're doing a, erm we're trying to build up a database at the moment of transcribed spoken language. We're happy to take part in that! Could we have that repeated, please, I didn't hear it. She's of the dictionary project that's looking at transcribed spoken language. Oh, we'll have to be careful, then, won't we! You may have to be careful. Perhaps you ought to tell her that John Patten is no longer with the environmental health. He is in fact. Is he still there? Haven't seen him for about two weeks. So we're all happy about that? Approved duties. You'll probably need help filling round here. I was going to say, I have no idea, unless there's, if they're on the agenda, I'll pick them up and see, if there's anything else, you'll have tell me about it I'm afraid, chair. I'm not immediately aware of anything else, but members, please rack your brains as we go through, Diana? You gave us, you gave us some dates on page three, item one hundred and twenty, thirteenth and fourteenth of December. I believe we've taken a decision on that for the health conference, last time round. I've got one on page eighty-one, but we'll come to it on pollution control. They're are some others too, chair, on the seminars and conferences we've listed. We can do on the way through, okay. I think there is no urgent business. erm Well, as I understand it there is a report on the authorization of officers, which is urgent business. Ah, that's right, sorry Yes, chair, and I don't have copies and, you do? Well, I have some, I thought they'd gone round, but this is, erm sorry Chair, it was one officer whom we've got on staff at the moment Karen Wheeler who's away nursing her new baby, and it's to authorize that officer to carry out certain roles under the health and safety Can you circulate that, the committee is accustomed to seeing it. I don't think it should cause you any problems, but it is something that's come on late erm as a result of maternity cover. Right. Ian Waterhouse is with us, probably wondering how on earth these meetings get off the ground at all. Ian, you're the community services manager. We have a paper from you on, can we settle down a bit. We have a paper from you on page eleven. Can I ask you to limit yourself to some five minutes. I apologize for that, that, but we have a very heavy agenda, and members start falling asleep around five, and if people have questions or comments, perhaps they . Welcome to our committee, and we hope we'll be working together in the future. Thank you, yes, erm thank you very much for inviting me to attend to those meetings and giving me the opportunity to meet you all. Having worked for a number of years now in community health services, previously erm in Yorkshire, in fact I've only been down in Oxford about four or five months, I've learnt how important it is in fact to make good working contacts with members and officers of other organizations, and particularly of local authority organizations. I'm therefore doubly grateful to you for giving me the chance to meet you today, and I hope that some of the contacts I might make today will stand me in good stead in the job that I'm doing in Oxford over the next year or so. I have sent round a briefing paper, and rather than go right through that, what I'd just like to do is to highlight two or three things about myself and about the post that I now hold, and I would be pleased to answer any questions that you might have during the next two or three minutes. Firstly, just to set my own context, I've been in the health service now for just over twenty year. I went into the service in nineteen seventy as a national trainee, and I'm therefore coming from the administrative branch of the service. I'm not a qualified nurse, or a health care professional. I'm an administrator by background, and I think that's interesting, because one of the things that we are trying to do in the health service is to open up our management posts to people of all professions, and to recognise that management is not the prerogative of any particular group, but that we're looking for the right people to manage our services from wherever they might come, and I'm one of three people who has a responsibility to the senior manager in the community at the top, for the managing on a day-to-day basis the health services in Oxfordshire. Of those two colleagues, interestingly enough, one is a health visitor by background, the other is a nurse, but someone who practised or hasn't practised, but as a district health community planner for a number of years. So you can see that we have quite a mixture of people in terms of our backgrounds professionally. The purpose of general management is to try and ensure that in the city that we are getting the best value we can from the health resources that are in the city, and I have the authority now, and the responsibility to spend the budget that I've had allocated from the Oxfordshire Health Authority, by Gerald Simon who's the general manager. So a big change in the way that we are arranged has actually come about through the general management structure, and we're hoping that this will give us more room, if you like to start looking at priorities, and to move the budget around in accordance with our feelings about those priorities. In that task I am assisted by a team of six managers, all of whom are professional nurses and district nurses or health visitors and they of course are there to advise me on professional issues, and to share with me the management task of using the resources of Oxford City in the way that we feel is best appropriate, and in doing that, I think one of the important things for us to do, I don't think we do it quite as well as we should, is to work more closely with the local council, and to look really at what the needs of our local communities are for health, and to try and make sure that the feelings that might well be expressed by individuals, either individually, or through caring associations, or through other statutory agencies, or through voluntary health organisations, are actually given a chance to be there, and to influence our, that official policy and constituents , and to, to influence the planning process. I've made a note of a potting of that briefing paper to you. I personally see this is as one of my major objectives over the next year or so, and in a sense it makes me trebly grateful to be here today, because I hope some of the contacts I might make today will enable me to work alongside you in what might be called even local Berkshire band, and to try and get more a multiplicity of views from different organisations channelled through our own value objectives. And it is the exciting part of my job is to make these links work, start to build on them, and over our links in the city on the environmental and group with Tony Benn , that's that's doing a very good job, he is a platform for this, for each other, but I think there's a lot more we can do locally erm within the city to build those links, and to work together for better answers for the city, and I hope that, on a practical level, one of the things that interested me was your grants team for local organisations, and I would like to think myself here today, we might look at the health authority, and try to join with them to make some erm practical contribution, particularly to those many carers, and groups of people who have problems, and we're not all just professionals best able to put over during our normal nine-to-five or eight-to-eight days, we we can. There's a lot we can do, I think, to help the community in a wider sense, and I see that as one of the key elements of my work, to try and make that work. And I'm not too concerned with the day-to-day management of individual professionals, I've got a team to help me do that. What concerns me is looking at the and trying to forge new creative links with other organisations, statutory and voluntary, in the best health interests of Oxfordshire residents. That I think is my main concern, with a request in a sense to you for supporting that over the next year or so, because I'll be trying to perhaps get invited to the meetings, and perhaps we'll be inviting officers from the authority to join me in looking at ways of building up that local context in planning to get that into our formal planning systems. That will be my key message, and the other thing I'd like to emphasise today, and I'd be very grateful for some sort of early response to that. I have discussed it with Dorothy Tomkin I think we have a genuine desire to move to a more authority-based planning system, erm, we haven't got the methods of doing that yet, and I turn to C B S and to local authority and to the traditional carers for them to join us in that. So thank you for giving me the chance to, to air that view. There are means to get a response and I'm grateful to take the temperature of the water. Right. The temperature of the water will inevitably be variably, and I'm sure we certainly welcome, lots of people will welcome your philosophical position. I would say just two things; the one on the rates scheme, we certainly as a health committee distribute fifteen thousand pounds a year and treat these as important pledge by work. We can't deliberately do not maintain those voluntary groups which we feel are appropriately and better funded by the health authority. The health authority has for years not shown any signs of so doing, I have to say. I don't want to be cynical at this stage, but years of experience that show that the health authority has no intention of doing that. And the other thing to say to from me is yes, we would love a multiplicity of views to go to the District Health Authority, I and my predecessor Betty Stanford, who were District Council Members on that health authority, we were there and able to listen to and able to contribute to the debate, the Government White Paper has taken us off, so that is not a good start in terms of how you involve the city and the district with the policy decisions of the health authority. So that's my bit of bad news. I can see Arthur, Betty and Liz. Chairman, may I first of all declare an interest in this. erm Under the new erm system erm every G P must at some time during the visit erm persons over seventy-five. Now, what are you doing to ensure that erm that this is carried out because a lot of elderly, they will not go to the doctor, but erm the doctor I believe has got to go and see them. Now, what are you doing to really see this is getting off the ground? Well, I Ian, can I ask you to save the questions and respond at the end, otherwise you'll find the discussion takes much longer, is that alright? Although that may not be appropriate view of that, but, Betty? I was going to raise the very question you raised. There we were as representatives of this city, people who are in contact with erm people who have got problems, we were Can you press your button, Betty? in my view thrown off without any reasonable excuse, because I felt that I could bring a lot of expertise to the health authority. They may not have thought of it as expertise, but when people said to me a particular ward is dirty, I went and looked at it, and in a very short time, within about ten minutes, that ward had got a massive clean-up team in there, that's the sort of thing that I felt was useful. That being said, I mean, you've lost now local, local erm expertise there. What I want to ask is, firstly, who are you funded by, and these teams, I note erm paragraphs three erm these nurses and so on, are they existing staff, or is this a new team, erm management team which has been set up at yet more expense to the health authority? So, basically, I want to know are they taken from erm a team which is already in the health service, or are they new posts funded, and funded by whom, bearing in mind the constant complaints we get from the health authority about lack of funds? Thank you, Betty. Liz? Thank you. I'm finding myself somewhat confused, I mean, I was interested that Ian had mentioned the practical voluntary services as one of the groups that he would wish to work with. I think that recently we seem to have had such, so many changes in the health authority, so many different peoples in the post who all seem to be doing the same sort of thing, who've got the Family Health Services Authority set up, but it would seem to me that some of the things that are on this piece of paper are things that I understood were being done by the Family Health Services Authority. We have a joint planning officer, and we've got quite a lot of joint erm of joint planning going on between the voluntary sector and the Health Authority and the Social Services. We've got a whole erm, a whole erm organisation that in fact the Council for Voluntary Service only this week made an appointment with a very, very, very, very small amount of money that's been made available on a very, very part-time basis, to actually assist with that, with the planning that's going on in the voluntary sector. And I think that we're constantly hearing about new people, new systems of working. erm New people who are being put in posts to liaise and to do this, that and the other, with a shrinking voluntary sector. With a voluntary sector that is erm constantly needing small amounts of resource in order to deliver an enormous amount of service to vulnerable people. And I think that the time will come some point, when the voluntary sector will say, ‘Well, we actually don't have time to talk erm to carry on talking about what we're doing and how we're doing it. We actually much prefer to get on with what we're there to do, and to, to offer services, to find, to find ways of supporting vulnerable people. So, I think my questions are, one, where does this post fit in the Family Health Services Authority? Two, how does it fit in with the Joint Planning Officer who's also ready in post?, Three, how will it fit in with all the locality planning and all the work that's already been done in joint planning between the voluntary sector and the local authority and the health authority. Thank you very much, Liz. We'll keep you going all afternoon at this rate, won't we Ian. I've seen Anne and Nonnie and I don't particularly want to see anybody else. I'm glad Liz is confused because as one of her predecessors I'm also confused. I mean, you know, we've lived with this planning. There's always been planning with the people on planning, and it seems to me that the paragraph that begins ‘A key area’, we've got some more planning. And I think really what's needed is actually going out, I mean, it could be a useful new thing that, a new departure that other people haven't done. In other words not sitting there and asking people to, erm people in authority, erm sort of people of influence, ask them what they think, but actually going out and visiting people and groups, and I was going to ask whether this would be copied to the women's sub-committee, because there are many, many groups of women who never have a chance of saying what they really want, and I don't mean patients, I mean potential users of the health service. erm The Health Service has been very much male-orientated. I'm very glad to see that there's quite a lot of nurses here, and I presume that quite a lot of those are women nurses, and I think that this is terribly important, and I think a useful thing with this new service could do is to go out and talk for instance to the meetings of women's organisations, to old peoples' clubs in the afternoon, and actually ask people what they would like, and get them talking in a nice informal way, rather than waiting for somebody to let them know what they think, because I don't think they're going to get it. So, I think that would be a useful thing for a new planning section to do. erm My ears pricked up when Mr Waterhouse did in fact say, I though he said that it wasn't necessarily help in monetary terms, but some of these people might be willing to help in kind, or in sort of helping as people with some voluntary organisations, and I think, if that was what he meant, I think there again that might be very useful, because voluntary organisations are always looking for people to help. So those are my few comments, thank you. Thank you Anne. Nonnie? As someone who has to ask occasionally for a care package for an individual, do I take it then the penultimate paragraph that this is the planning, you know, how you're going to produce a care package for an individual, this is what you refer to in the planning system, and that you're getting together with Social Services to get this care package together? Yes, Okay? Would you like to tackle that lot in the best way you can? Thank you, yes, erm to take the final point in terms of care packages, yes, are officers are working on, Social Services officers, on the professional care assistant care packages. Yes, but at what level? Do you yet know at what level that's going to be organised? I don't know. You don't know, so that's part of the planning system that we're working on? The working groups are currently on working on that, and they, my colleagues I assume are talking to the the officers of the Social Services about that, what is happening, but the final outcome has yet to appear. Just answering the first question on assessment of the over seventy-fives, that in fact really should be better left for the to say. I'm not part of the organisation. They have a responsibility for managing the U G B Contract, and you quite rightly said that one of the arguments on that contract, assessments of the over seventy-fives. I belong to the Community Oxford Health Authority not to the Family Health Services Authority, so that's just to clarify that, that did cover two questions that I was asked. In terms of Primary Health Care teams, they are existing members of staff, or health visitors attached to General Practices, and we call that collaboration if you like . In terms of a planning process Anne was talking about, you'll have to forgive me for being relatively new to Oxfordshire and coming from an area where we had a planning system which was largely the one I was describing, and the planning role that I saw I wanted to develop was very much already mentioned which was actually going round to small groups of people, to the local caring groups on a much more informal basis, and getting their contribution about that and then feeding it back into the system, which you say is there in a sense. I don't think it's rooted firmly enough in the localities. And it's that part of the jigsaw that I want to concentrate on. So if there's anything, there's a slightly different approach to it, and one thing that we are being urged to do, through the very way in which you mentioned in another context, is to make sure that facilities are appropriate locally, and developing policies within that. I don't make any apologies for that, and maybe it is going over the old ground, but unless we do it, unless we try to do it, if we've done it the way before been and it hasn't produced what we, what we want, then surely it's not for us to sit back and say, ‘Well, it's been through that and it hasn't worked’, surely we ought to try again, and that's what I hope to be doing, sort of value your support and see you . Yes, can I say to you that what you're hearing is members' experiences of the past. mhm I'm not sure that you'll be able to uncover dinosaurs as it were. Well, no, but I But of course in terms of partnership, you will have our support and any way we can aid and abet you then we shall do that, erm but you can tell from the questions and comments that we have some distress about the Yes, I get that, yes Ian, thanks ever so much, it's not necessarily been an easy ride for you, but we're glad to know you and we look forward to meeting you again. Yes, well, I hope so, we can sort of work it out. I'm sure of it. Thank you very much indeed. Bye Thanks, bye bye. You can stay of course! Don't blame you! Can I just draw your attention to your item on Urgent Business. Do you all have sight of that? It's headed up ‘Appointments and Authorization of officers’ and you're asked to authorize Stephen Stansfield, a non-professional health technician, as detailed in para. 2, it's a very normal and routine bit of work for you. Are you agreed? Agreed. So that we can get on with this work. Thank you very much indeed. On to item six and seven. You'll remember we do this on an annual basis. It's very efficiently organised for us to do. We've got Keith Dryer here, I think, of the engineers. Keith, would you like to press your button and introduce us to item six, street collections in Oxford. Thanks, Chair. Basically, the latest, and I mustn't take any credit, and there seemed to be some credit, Chair. This lady on my right, Katherine Powell, does all the hard work and committee reports, and I thought it only fair to bring her here today, because she's the person that does the set fifty-threes, She does? She's one of the members you can come to. So Katherine can answer the details on the report. Right. Welcome, Katherine. I didn't realize that's who you are. I'm the one who'll always be late getting a reply back on the set fifty threes! So Katherine, do you want to say anything on the report at this stage? I'd just like to point out that erm on the street collections as you've always done before, AvaRag and NovaSports don't generally get passed, because they don't actually help anybody in Oxford. Right That's the only thing I'd like to bring to your attention. So, you can confirm for us that NovaSports are still in that position, and I think some of us understand the nature of Avarag. Yes, erm they've got a sports centre in Nottingham, and that's the nearest thing they've got to Oxford. Thank you for saying that to us, yes, I wouldn't have actually picked it up. Chair, can I just ask, I mean, so it's organisations that are Oxfordshire rather than Oxford City. Yes. That's tended to be our line. They've not been tested solely on that, but it's on the question. Well, unless people have specific to Katherine, as I say it's presented in such a way, this report, that essentially we're asked to agree the number of permits to match the number of applications. I would suggest to the committee on page sixteen on our recommendations that we do make the point about Avarag and NovaSports, just in terms of consistency, and I would expect you to want to continue to do that. So does that mean we still grant twenty-three Saturday city centre permits? That doesn't alter that position, Katherine? No, Well, it will go down to twenty-one. Quite. Could I ask on page seventeen about Blue Cross? We have got erm some organisations, the ones I can think of is the Animal Sanctuary that we are all familiar with. erm I, does Blue Cross have any connection with Oxfordshire? Yes, they've got a farm in Burford. Ahh. Can I ask that you agree on eight one A to grant them twenty-one Saturday city centre permits, and you're clear that you've left out NovaSports and AvaRag, and you understand why? Graham? I have a great deal of sympathy with all these organisations anyway, and the tremendous number of volunteers that come out on the days. I'm just wondering whether in fact every Saturday that you've got, bearing in mind this is not flag days, this is in the street. Yes, these are street collections. That we really are putting a tremendous number of people on the street over the course of the year, erm that the general public are facing. And while I think we ought to do what we can, I think there's a line which ought to be drawn, and I do honestly wonder whether twenty-one, it was eighteen last year, and I just wonder if perhaps we should erm try and switch some of these to mid-week, so that we're not seeing it virtually every Saturday of the year. Okay, Betty? I just wanted to say to you, firstly I declare an interest in OxRad, not pecuniary, of course, with money, however, but it is on behalf of charities, it is the only way they can generally raise some two three hundred pounds in a day, or sometimes a little more, that is a tremendous help to charities. And I think that erm twenty-one is nothing like too many, in fact that's not even half a year. It doesn't mean that in fact that erm that there are twenty, my maths are right, that does mean that there are thirty one Thirty-one. Where there is not a collection, I think that's perfectly reasonable. Well, of course, there's flag days as well . Yes, well then we're also making provision for disaster funds coming up, emergency funds. Can I say that we are now organising quite tightly the business of street collections, and I think if committee are minded to reduce the number of collections that we allow, we should decide that before we come to this meeting, because I think it's very difficult in practical terms to do it at this stage, and therefore I would suggest that we do agree twenty-one, not withstanding what Graham said, we can take on board some of what he said, and maybe the month before we are asked to take this decision, we have an item on the agenda where we discuss the principle before we get down to the practicalities. Would that suit you for the time being, Graham? I think so, It made me feel that some actually seem to be quite keen to have suburban or mid-week, even though they've had city centre ones in the past. Some clearly want to switch to city centre. But I did think that it might just ease the pressure on Saturdays, because, following what erm Betty has said, in fact, as I make it it's forty-five Saturdays out of fifty-two, and bearing in mind Bank Holiday weekend, Christmas and that sort of thing, it's virtually every Saturday in the city centre there is a collection. Now that's fine, but I know some people who are in the city centre every, on Saturday, feel very guilty if they're not constantly giving, and I do think we want to get that balance. Clearly we want to support the charities, and the organisations but erm. I was just going to make a quick comment if I may on Oxfam, because I noticed that they're down for the street collections and for the flag day, now next year's their fiftieth anniversary, so I think it's quite appropriate next year, but I do, my own view is, that we will get, we ought to get one comprehensive list of all these organisations, for both the street collections and the flag days, with an indication in the column of whether it's flag day they've gone for or a street collection, so that we can identify that sort of situation. Right, I mean, that seems quite sensible actually. I would just like to point out that suburban and mid-week flag day erm street collections alternate with the city centre the following year. That was committee decision a number of years ago. Right, Anne. I think there does come a point when there is resistance. I mean, we all know that having to shake tins, the number of people who go past by on the other side, and I think that we do have to be careful with the numbers, and even those people who normally give do get a bit fed up if there are too many. So what I thought was that it was quite important to look at all these organisations that do seem to me really to have nothing to do with Oxford or Oxfordshire, and that we should be very careful. Now, if we are going to, for instance, allow I mean there's one organisation, number five, which says it's a national, although it's called Cherwell Round Table, which says it's just a national body raising funds for numerous charities. Now, if we're going to allow an organisation like that, have we no erm chance to say that after they've had their collection, we should like to have some indication of what percentage went to Oxford, so that when they apply again, we can at least know whether this is actually a genuine local organisation or national. And a lot of these organisations, it's very difficult, because there are many that a lot of people are in favour of, like, well, take King George's Fund for Sailors and so on , but how do we know, I mean, there might be two people they might help in Oxford over the course of the year. I do think it's a difficult one, but I do feel there is a limit to the number, and therefore we should be careful that the ones we agree to are the ones that interest local people. Right. I think we certainly agree with you in terms of locality, and it's open to you at any time, I would have thought, to be in touch with Katherine, and say, ‘Would you follow up on x or y’. I think if the committee did that then we'd be back to what five or six years ago, when a whole afternoon was spent on that and I wouldn't commend that to you, but can we perhaps have a word with the officers at a later stage, take it on board what both Graham and Anne have been saying, and obviously not trying to do that in a meeting like this but try to prepare for it a month before-hand. Is that reasonable at this stage? Yes so we can get progress? Chair, could I make, could I suggest maybe that in future when you ask organisations you make it harder for getting a license for street collection, that you tell them that you'll want to know exactly the proportions, but I mean put it back on to them, rather than be you having to bother to it in the future. Right, is that not done? It is to a degree, on the application form that each charity receives, it has to state whether it collects for people in the Oxford area, but not as a percentage. I think that, more, not sort of say a general question like that, but say that after the collection has happened that you want returns for the number of people in Oxford that have benefited from the number of groups in Oxford that have benefited. I mean, I think a lot of national organisations that are giving, I trust that are giving money to people actually do want to know that sort of detail about where the money is going, because, if I go through this, I mean, I would have to say that I should imagine that a very small percentage of the money that has been collected on these flag days will actually get back into Oxfordshire. I mean, my knowledge of the organisations that are there tells me that. I mean there's organisations like Oxrad that clearly, the money will only be spent in Oxford city. And the bit about it is that there may well be other small organisations that might, erm be better, erm I mean, have, might benefit people more in Oxford city, or in Oxfordshire, aren't getting in because No, that's not the case, it's open to them to apply in any event. I know, but what I mean is that when they see the city centre, the people who are walking up and down the city centre, they see all the national charities, they don't necessarily feel that they're organised in the same way and therefore that they should be participating, and the whole palaver of getting a licence and applying is actually quite difficult, it's not a simple, it's not something, we get numerous telephone calls in the office saying ‘Well can I go out next Saturday and rattle a tin for such-and-such’, and you say ‘Well, you can't’, and it's left much too late, so that people don't know about the way you get licenses to rattle tins in city centre. Don't know about the issues to do with house-to-house collection. Are we getting, erm collecting erm in the shopping centres. They just don't actually have that information, a lot of small local groups, and I think maybe the C B S could work with the Engineers department in future years and try to get to those groups, because I'm sure a lot of them, actually if they were given the opportunity in time to get in, that, that you might have a lot of people applying for flag and whatever than you do now. Well, by all means, let's do that, and has been represented in committee for some time, we have responsibility for licenses for some time, and if there isn't a dialogue now, then there'll be a good reason why there isn't, and I, I take what you say, Liz. But certainly, if we have something like fifty applications, then we'd be into a much more complex procedure. We can see why we don't, and I'm not clear about the reasons why we don't, but there you are, Michael. Chair, another query about a couple of the comments made just now, about priority being given to organisations which disclaim their proceeds in Oxford or Oxfordshire. I had a cheque for some thirteen hundred pounds raised by the local branch of National body, a body like Round Table, although it wasn't Round Table, it was another body like that, and that will buy thirteen houses in Everland in Southern India. Well, not a single penny will be spent in Oxford or Oxfordshire. Now, am I to take it that sort of appeal will have a very low priority, I mean, how about Oxfam for example? Oxfam doesn't have a low priority, clearly, erm there are, certainly we have an S.O fifty-three procedure for disasters and so forth. But there isn't a direct slot, Michael, you're right, for a project such as the one you've just described. I mean, maybe what I'm hearing from the committee is that we take it back and look at the criteria and the ground rules. I just would suggest that we don't do it in this committee. But what we certainly can do is take note of what you've said, and ensure that we get it together for you to be consulted before we take decisions next year. Graham, you've had two bites, and I really I was only going to agree with you actually, and I was just going to back-up what Michael said, and say that obviously we've got people like Amnesty International, and I know it's a very hard-working local branch, but obviously, the money it's raised is going to benefit people overseas. Hopefully so, hopefully we haven't got people within the city of Oxford that need Amnesty's help! Right, can I leave you then to the recommendations on page sixteen, notwithstanding all of the suggestions and comments that have been made, that we this year grant twenty-one Saturday City Centre permits, and the officers are clear twenty-one and not twenty-three, that we grant eleven City Centre, mid-week and suburban permits, and do you note that whoever is unsuccessful in obtaining Saturday City Centre permit will be granted one of those and given priority. Yes? Will you agree to grant three band collection permits, which you've done before, which are usually great fun, I must say. And D is part of what Michael is saying, it gives the chair, vice-chair, opposition liaison member the discretion to allow for usually natural disasters, and we would obviously want that discretion with your support. There's one final thing, and that is on page fifteen at the bottom, it's a list of organisations which were given permits for St Michael the Northgate. And I'm not quite sure why Age Concern, which has had this for I think at least twenty years for their Christmas Carols, which is not included. But I don't, the fact that they're not included does not mean that they can't have it, because that would be disastrous, because they do rely on that It doesn't, they just haven't requested it this year. Well, I mean, that is absolutely nonsense, it's tradition, I'm sure they'll have it. Can you take that up with Age Concern, Anne? There's a limit as to how much we can do for half the people in this committee are members But you see it's inaccurate anyway, because it's five two during nineteen ninety five, and they had it This year They did for last year. I mean, it's for Christmas this year that we want it. Well, can you get them together with Katherine fairly rapidly, is that a good idea? I mean, there's enabling and enabling, isn't there for heaven's sake. Chair, on the recommendations erm on item D, I'm a bit unhappy about the use of the term ‘natural’ disasters, because I believe that many of the disasters that people in Oxford are actually giving money for are man made disasters, particularly matters of international economics and the unfair burden, erm unfair distribution of wealth which places a whole sector of the world in poverty, and I think, you know, you do get a magnificent response from people in Oxford to these charities, and we must be aware that there are a whole number of greater issues involved, and while I hear what you're saying earlier on about you can't take on the problems of the whole world, I think when people are actually giving money to charities for example, like Oxfam, they are often unaware of these issues, and we do have a wider role in making the, joining with organisations like Oxfam in spreading public awareness on these issues. Right, I agree with that, and I think that we'll simply leave out the word ‘natural’ in future, won't we. Have we agreed that as a committee? Indeed, we have all agreed, I take it the recommendations under eight one in order that we can make progress. Which left the word in? So that we can report back, a month before decision time next time round? Are you happy with that? Item seven then is on page twenty-seven. This is flag day, which essentially means house-to-house. Is there anything you want to say about that, Katherine at this stage? No, it's quite straightforward. Right, the only comment I have is members will remember that we got slapped in council last year because we issued a permit to LIFE for a flag day application. I sat down with LIFE and worked through their philosophy, erm in line with our own as it were, and they agreed, and I would ask them to agree this year that any paperwork or any leaflets they distribute make it very clear that a choice remains for a woman in terms of whether or not she should have an abortion, because LIFE is fairly, yes, Michael? Did you check their tenancy agreement, because it was a pretty Machiavellian, Dickensian tenancy agreement, if you're found smoking in bed for example, you were out the next morning, those sort of things, and I think you really ought to look at that very carefully. We certainly did last year, there's no reason why we can't monitor it again, so they know we are watching them quite carefully. That might have been for very good environmental and health reasons. Yes, I should hope so. I think I would commend LIFE to you, but it will be with the same conditions and terms as we did last year, with which they did comply. Are there other questions of queries on flag days or are you happy to approve them as they stand. That's on page twenty-seven, six one, twenty four flag day permits to be approved, and we allow the officer to decide how they will best be distributed across the city. Are you happy with that? And then on six two, do you wish to grant a permit to allow a flag day to take place on one or two days during nineteen ninety-one, for the Royal British Legion? Can I have someone move something on that, please? Yes, I'd move that erm they'd be granted two days. I'll second that. And you'll second that, cross-party approach to this, are you all agreed? Thank you very much indeed. Can I ask, I know we've got Amanda Root here, who's going to help us in the Health Action Area Report, I also know that she has an ailing child, can we then take the item eleven, health action areas now on page fifty-eight, so that we can let Amanda go back to her commitments. The joint report from Amanda and Phil. Amanda, do you want to kick off on this? Thank you chair, erm many of you will perhaps know that the health authority did some pioneering work looking at different standard mortality ratios in different wards in Oxfordshire, and came up with some rather disturbing evidence that some of the wards had significantly higher incidents of death for people primarily in the forty-five to sixty-four age range than others, and Phil and myself wish to continue that work by targeting those wards with a range of measures designed to alleviate some of those health inequalities. And in this report, we've just outlined a very preliminary start to what we're doing. We'd obviously, we'd like to get the agreement of this committee to continue that work and to take it up to the various bodies and consultation. And, erm to develop it there's a timetable in the appendices about the progress we envisage making. We'd like to confirm by the end of this year which wards we're targeting and how we're targeting them, which range of erm measures that we're going to undertake. is that we've been involved in health strategy for the past over five years. The ultimate test of any health in the city strategy is what we do about the health divide. We have to do something about the equity target. And that's extremely difficult to do something about the equity target, since National policy, the distribution of income, housing policy, all the things that we tackle on this committee and committees of the council have a very significant effect on the health of the people who live in the city, and it's not in our control. Nevertheless, it's our belief that through health promotion programmes which involve cooperation with communities themselves, that we can in fact do as much as we possibly can do to actually alleviate some of the erm differences in health status. So our belief is that erm with the relationship we've been able to build up in this city, with confrontation and community participation, with the targeting of the small resources that we do have, as a council in collaboration with the other, the resources of the other bodies, that we can in fact do something. So I'll do this and I think Amanda would agree with this that this is the ultimate test that will help us in establishing can we actually do something about target one of the World Health Organisation, which is to narrow the health divide. That's out test. I would also add to that that I think such work would help us in terms of targeting more effectively the existing resources we have in terms of service delivery. Are there any questions? Sheila? Chair, I'd like to ask Amanda, I did St Clements and Petersfield . Is there any possibility of, in the near future of doing a council estate, like Barton or Blackbird Leys? erm Yes, certainly, I, I would suggest East and St Clements because they have got quite high ethnic populations, and we can perhaps be hoping to start there, because Environmental Health's already worked there, targeting some of the multi-occupation properties, so they've got a very high proportion of black people living there, which means that they're also quite important in the sense of deprivation, but, I mean, we are also very conscious that we should be working on a council estate, and what we, what I would like to do is to simultaneously be starting working in erm a particular sets of communities, is to be given work in consultation in other wards, so that you know, six months down the line before . But thanks for the point, and I mean, I'll make a note of that and take it up to the health authority. Betty and then Ruth. I'm a little surprised, chair, I could ask Amanda, but erm, Iffley is erm on the list, bearing in mind, recalling the erm point figures, where Iffley are if I recall correct was fairly well down on the league table, and Marston was something like erm six or some place. erm What connection is there between unemployment and deprivation? Thank you. erm I agree, and I actually think these figures are relatively crude, but I mean, there is, clearly there are correlations between low income, which most I mean unemployed people have of course got, and ill health. But certainly, something like Iffley's relatively surprising, it could well be, it might be because there's quite a high proportion of retired people or something, so the figures are actually distorted. erm What, what we're hoping is that erm the university's undertaking some research to actually look at the links between very small geographic areas, postcode in fact, and ill health. So when that research becomes available, we'll actually be able to be much, much more specific about where we're targeting, because I agree it's, you know, some of these are somewhat surprising. Nonnie Yes, in one five, erm they're practising notes from Eynsham it does happen to be in Cherwell ward and not North ward, erm there is a booklet out about health and housing in Cutteslowe, and I wondered what the connection between, you know, not being on this committee, but these health action areas, and what in fact is happening in housing, because the director did assure me that other wards were going to be treated to the same erm treatment. So I don't know whether that is what's referred to? Hang on, can I just check out your question, certainly we've taken the Cutteslowe health and housing audit to this committee, and so has housing Yes, yes, but that's not going to be the only one, as I understand it. That was an external one in fact Yes, is that's what's being referred to erm by the university work, because I think it's It isn't actually Is that so? It isn't. The other question I've got is presumably all this is still being done within what we've got in the budget, or is it, are there going to be extra bids? You know the answer to that question, Non, there's going to be no extra bids. No extra bids. This particular section's taken some slices already, so we'd better watch what we say to them. They're doing it within their own time and resources, but it does seem to me to be a very appropriate area for Michael? Thank you It's certainly will be difficult, Chair, but in answer to Mrs Tidley, what's happening to our housing, the answer is we've stopped building it. Government policy we don't build any housing, and therefore we've got five thousand on the waiting list, and that's why health is a major problem for a lot of people in this city, because we're not building any houses, she knows that, and she and her party do nothing about it. We're doing an awful lot in Thank you, Gerald. Yes, well, I particularly welcome this erm concentration on areas, I think it's an excellent idea, particularly in relation to housing, I think what we will find interesting is that a whole number of Oxford citizens, perhaps indeed from Barton, Blackbird Leys, Marston originally, who are badly housed in these areas and waiting in the most appalling accommodation for the opportunity of a council home. And I'm sure that this report on the health action area is going to show some fairly, erm give us some fairly staggering erm revelations about about the health of Oxford citizens that's going to surprise people at large when they find out how badly people have fared over the past ten years when we've had the Tories in office who've really done their very, very best to make the health divide of this country in a very poor state. Hear, hear Thank you, Anne Sorry I was going to go down to get an authorization from Age Concern, I missed the first bit, but erm if resources are allowed for this work, would it not be better to aim them at priority areas, and not wards, I mean, in other words, to put it to the areas that needed most. I mean a ward is going to be seen as rather a big area, when within wards there are priority areas. That was really my point. I don't think I'll bother to answer the remarks that others need to say of course tremendous resources have gone into the health service over the past few years, but I think whatever government is in power, it will never be enough for all the new developments in the health service, and that is always the trouble, whoever would be there would find it difficult. erm Your comment on wards, I think this is a way of the officers giving us something to work on and take a decision on. Once they have a decision to work, then I would doubt very much actually they're going to be into every corner of St Clements and East, or ignoring council estates altogether. We have to allow them to take some decisions within our decision, I think, but I'm sure they'll take your point anyway. Diana, and then we ought to come to a decision. Yes, I'm sure, I mean we obviously all appreciate the fact that within wards there's an area of deprivation and an area that isn't deprived. I mean, many, many wards, but that doesn't mean that we should therefore ignore a ward because it's got an area that is not deprived, you've got the, I think that by choosing East and St Clements as areas, that they seem then quite sensible areas to start with, nice central, fairly central location. I was going to say, when it comes to paragraph five, do you erm suggest that you actually think in terms of church organisations, they're not mentioned, and I look forward in in paragraph seven one to the seminar, the working seminar that's going to be in the near future, and I hope that we'll soon get a date, so that we can get it in our very busy diaries, in the hope that we can come along and learn more about this. Thanks very much, Diana. Could we add mosques as well to the churches, please? I'm sorry, I should have said all religious groups. All religious groups ! Can we come to a decision there please. Yes, just on the sub-ward level, of course there's really, there's a lot more investigations to go into targeting the resources, just I mean to target them in a city by having these standard mortality ratios for wards, but they're all below ward level, and target the specific areas. erm That's one point, the other point is of course, we have already targeted of course in working with the groups that we've defined as erm ones whose health status is at risk in effect, so this is a supplement, this is actually translating those targets we have already defined into a locality planning exercise. So we're testing, those priorities are still holding for us that but we're applying them to the localities. Thanks very much. Can I direct you then to page sixty-one, recommendations in paragraph eight. You're asked to support the general move, that we have set out from this report, and you're asked to agree to St Clements and East Ward, and I think we've heard Mandy and Phil acknowledge that there may well be a case for looking at an area of council housing, which we will leave them to do, and also to approve the set of objectives, which I particularly welcome, on page sixty-two and sixty-three, which will amount to a work programme, which I would have thought we were all very pleased to see. Can we endorse that, and ask the officers to come back to us and keep us in touch with their work. Are you agreed? Thanks very much indeed, thank you both, and I . We need to move somewhat quickly, and I am reminded that, I did see Caroline come in, but we have two people who've come in connection with item fifteen, Community Concerns in East Oxford, are you agreed that we take that now, so that they can I think it ties in very well with the item we've just discussed. Thank you, Graham. Item fifteen, and Shereen has just arrived as well. Caroline and your visitor, would you like to join us at the table, if you want to join in. So we're turning to page seventy-five. The paper is in fact written by Shereen. I don't want you to think, Caroline that we are acquitting you rapidly, I will try to acquit you rapidly, but I am also delivering what you've come for. Well, thank you, chair, for inviting me here. erm do you want me to speak to this Please do. Caroline Morrell, from OCADU, do you want to press your button, Caroline, so that everybody will please sit down normally and naturally, and maybe moved a bit closer to you, they'll pick up what you're saying. erm But I raised this at the alcohol forum, because erm sometime this summer I had a phone call from Mr Bailey here, who is a resident of East Oxford, to express his concern about various problems erm in East Oxford, problems that were posed to residents there. erm I think in fact it would be better to ask Mr Bailey to explain what his concerns were erm I'd just like to say first although initially it revolves around problems of drinking, I'm looking at other issues of East Oxford, in that recently there's been a great deal of concern about glue sniffing in sections there, and there have been various letters from residents in the local newspapers, and I think there's a general level of problem for people living in East Oxford, and it's not just that the people there want the streets cleaned up or whatever, they want something constructive and helpful to be done for people. So Welcome, would you like to take two or three minutes to talk to us about your concerns. Right. I should say first how this matter arose. It arose because some neighbours in my street effectively started behaving which was totally antisocial. There was a small group of young people who, as it happens were also associated with the bed-and-breakfast on Iffley Road, erm and several of them had moved between this house and the bed-and-breakfast. Their activities ranged throughout the day and night and reached a peak of basically making a noise nuisance of themselves, there were other troubles which I will mention later, in which they would be playing two or three different sound systems, and at its worst, a full drum set in the early hours of the morning, obviously keeping their near neighbours not only awake but in a state of some anxiety. I live directly opposite to them, and there were two of their neighbours who effectively unable to carry on a normal life throughout most of the time that they were there. This was taking place on five or six nights until early mornings a week for several hours. Eventually a noise abatement notice was served on them, and erm immediately after that the landlord offered them a hundred pounds to leave, and they left. He did that because they had not only annoying his neighbours, sorry, their neighbours, because he had once been one of our neighbours, but also they had damaged his house, and they had already cost him probably about two hundred pounds in repair bills until the house itself, broken doors, window erm the wall, and bit of the roof and so on, and there was every reason to believe that this would just carry on. Now, erm I think I should make clear that I have some personal feelings on this, and I just want to say something very briefly about my neighbours, something I actually don't agree with . erm There is a general concern I think with multiple occupancy that there's, a whole way of life of East Oxford is changing, and not for the better, and indeed I was part of this when I moved into the area ten years ago. erm And the, a lot of this was not specific to drug or alcohol abuse but simply to multiple occupancy. And we've now reached a situation in which there's something over twenty percent of our streets is multiple occupation, erm and this is noise and other activities in relation to that are the things that cause the sort of low level of concern, and this was just the peak on top of that of major aggravation. erm I think there are one or two of the elderly tenants in particular who felt really very anxious about activities at night time, and they're going to have their property stolen, or things thrown at their house. I mean these people, there's things like throwing broken milk bottles, throwing milk bottles into peoples yards, removing bicycles, picking up my bicycle, as it happens, and throwing it down several times, erm going down the streets playing a sound system full volume at two o'clock in the morning, which generally left people feeling they didn't know what was happening. This was only part of a general sort of pattern as it were, where people were beginning to impinge on their lives, there was another well-known local alcoholic there who was knocking on doors trying to get money off people, and there's several elderly people who gave this woman money, because they were frightened that if they didn't something would happen to them. So I think I can express some of my neighbours concerns, unless, particularly, not particularly worried about those, but there is a general feeling that things are getting worse, and that they're not safe in their own homes, among the more elderly. erm And obviously a few people don't like the sight of people on the Cowley, the Cowley Hospital site, and things like that. This doesn't concern me. I do feel I'd like to say one point about the people who were in this house, that it's quite clear, all of them I believe were under care of the social services, erm and I don't know enough about their history to say whether they, where they've been before, whether they've been in some half-way house, or just been thrown out of some mental institution. I'm virtually certain that the woman from whom we had most of the aggravation had been. She was clearly mentally disturbed, and the reason that I got in touch with the legal project was to see if there's anything that could be done by them to start giving her some way of getting in touch, getting to solve her problem. Obviously this was done out of self interest, but I really, the woman was in real pain. She was an extremely angry, very bitter woman, who was determined to get everybody around her as angry as she could, and she succeeded, and I don't know where she's moved now, but I'm sure she will go on and do the same thing, and frankly, I despair of anything being done unless there is some provision made for people such as herself, and one of her friends in particular. That's really what I'd like to say. Thank you very much indeed, I think that's fairly fair, but none-the-less honest way of setting out your feelings. This is quite a specific issue, and I'm not sure that this committee on this day is in the best position to discuss it in detail. Obviously I'll take your advice on that. I do think as far as placing people in houses in multi-occupation, we acknowledge that. How is it done, by whom, who thinks about it, is it planned, is there support, and for that reason we are arranging a meeting, Frank, together with the Health Authority with all those agencies who do place people, sometimes quite sick people as you rightly point out. So that is certainly on line. Now, I know that what Shereen asks us to do, and I'm sure Caroline as well, is to organise a multi-agency meeting. We've done this on the proposed East Oxford Education centre. I think we can very usefully do this, and iron our way to this. What we need from you is really a specific proposal about the kinds of groups and individuals that you want us to sit down with. You can either do that now, or we can agree in principle that we will take this up. Perhaps chair, vice chair, and opposition liaison member if you feel that's suitable. And call such a meeting. I think it will a long way, but you're quite to draw it to us, and to ask us to set out on that road. Michael? Yes, chair. What sort of people would you involve in this meeting. I mean there's a lot of voluntary organisations who are working in this field, I don't know how you would just make sure you got them all. The resources are pitifully small. I mean, I'm involved in doing some statistics for Windmill House, the probation service, and we've found that the sixteen-to-eighteen-year-old provision in the city is very, very small. I'm sure it's the same for many of the other groups who've got problems. But, erm I hope you involve all those sort of organisations in your discussions. I would imagine that Shereen would apply the same kind of pattern as you did to the de-toxification centre meeting, Shereen, and I felt that there were a great many people there, a great many interested, including the voluntary interest. Betty? Well, of course, chair, a lot of these problems are arising out of the so-called ‘care in community’. I was hoping we'd avoid the political discussion, Betty. Well, you know, I mean. We've a job to do here. Well, you know me, I don't normally become political, but let's face it, this is one of the direct results of throwing the money to the community without any after care, and I was particularly concerned, with my other hat on, only last week, that a young man told us his address was now the night shelter. Now, because his time at the Bridge had ended, he had nowhere else to go, except to the Nightshelter. Now, I thought that was quite inappropriate for a young man like him, who had nowhere else to go, so there are many, many multiple problems for people like this in this city, and anything we can do would be appreciated, but I really don't know where we would stop, there are so many problems. I would ask members to be brief, otherwise we shall actually lose matters off this agenda today. Liz, and then Patrick. Chair, can I suggest that some of the people who are actually involved in this are actually asked themselves rather than agencies that might be working with them, because I think that, that most of the, the sort of people we're talking about are actually very sensitive. And they know about what's happening to them, and know that at the end of the day, it doesn't matter about what their behaviour is, it doesn't matter about what happens to them, because nobody cares. And I think it's very, very important that they're involved. Through the Princes' Trust in the month we actually give grants to something like twenty people, just to get them off the street, because there was nowhere else they could turn to. And I think that there's a massive problem that needs to be addressed, and I think we should involve those people themselves, also in looking at what the issues are, it's all very well for people to decide, workers to think that they know what the issues are. I very often think that that's not the case. Yes, I think we'd all agree with that. Patrick? Thanks, erm the report refers to East Oxford, which is of course for two wards, East and St Clement's, but the problem extends city-wide, and I think the solution should be seen as a city-wide solution. Yes. Do you want to finally come back? Yes, I'd like to add one point, matters that the house continues in multiple occupancy and is successful at the present, and the landlord is not prepared to say that he is being now an agent of some hospital or other. I'm sure that he is, the people who've come from there, quite clearly recovering alcoholics or mental hospital patients, or possibly people from prison, and I've known enough people in my time to know this. And it is working very, very successful at the moment with the current set of tenants. However, there's clearly a need for some sort of monitoring and for some support erm other than erm some other support. The landlord is not prepared to come up front and say that's what he's doing. Unfortunately, I suspect because he fears a reaction from his neighbours, and I'm afraid he's right. He'd be very aware of what's likely to happen. He is trying to do something about it, though, I'm sure. Right, and this will call for some sensitivity in terms of how we handle this. Caroline and Shereen, is there anything else you want to comment on, otherwise I would ask that you'd come back to me on this in more detail. I think I'd just like to add that I think that this could possibly be a very big piece of work. Exactly. And I think it would actually need, if it's going to be taken on board, somebody appointed to look at this, or it be put in somebody's job brief and I would have thought ideally that it would be placed with the community worker, and I don't know quite how we're placed for community workers in East Oxford, but maybe it's something we could put to that department. I hear what you say, and I hesitate to make any further comment on that, given the current climate, but let's set about just examining the shape of the difficulty at the moment, and see what we can as it were immediately deal with ourselves, and what we can try and persuade other people to help us to know . Will you come back to me in terms of who you want to invite, taking on Liz Kermey's point about involving people themselves if they so wish, and we'll consult with the opposition liaison member and the vice-chair. But in principle we agree do we not, to back multi-agency meeting, given what we said in the discussion and we will come back to you with something that's maybe a bit more specific, and more easy to discuss, may I say. Thank you very much indeed for coming. Thank you. Thank you, thank you for bringing it forward. Thank you very much. We're back to the normal agenda, item eight on page thirty-six. Will you also while you're looking at this look at page thirty-seven, which is the pollution and nuclear issues control sub-committee. You will see there there has been a detailed discussion on this white paper, and members from that sub-committee made comments. I would suggest we do not need a second read of the discussion, but that can people keep an eye on , or try and change what is already there on pollution itself. Peter, you're introducing this on page thirty-six. Yes, I think it's totally clear that what we need is a short message, and it's a white paper, and therefore it's inviting a message, so what we really need is a short message to go with the A B C and the government act on the two S P's and I would give an undertaking at this point that it will go under the chief environmental health officers' name. Yes, quite. While you're thinking about it, there are three quick things that you might like to add in, one is on page seventy-four, which, erm seventy-four? I think it's seventy-nine, Peter. Yes, seventy-nine, it's the, in particular one a, I think concerns this community greatly. The document included no indication of the role of local authorities, or the resources needed by local authorities. We intend to take this recommendation for action. And if you actually look at this paper, there's quite a bit at the end of the day that the local authority will need to do, and I think we need to underline that and to get money. The second point, briefly, is that the white paper has turned its face on the establishment of an environmental protection agency, and independent environment protection agency, and erm, you may feel strongly, I know there was another report that came out just about that time that erm was advocating it, and you may feel that what is needed is a central, independent environmental protection agency. This paper only gives erm an, what is called an integrated pollution inspectorate, now unfortunately with those sort of central inspectorates is that after the public's attention has drifted on, they tend to be erm, they tend to dwindle in numbers, as we've seen with the present pollution inspectorate. Now, thirdly, is on this question of C O 2 emission. If you look at the report, White Paper, you'll notice that it's sticking to a, a freezing of the nineteen-ninety levels by the year two thousand and five, and you may feel that you would like to see this country come more into line with the other E E C countries and ask for a freezing by the year two thousand. So those are three, anyway, three things erm that you might like to think about for a short message for a response to the White Paper. Michael. And can I ask members not to repeat the discussion of the pollution sub. Just be very brief, chair, erm could I ask that we have a report before council on this, and I know it will be an extra two hours on the poor council debate, but I think this is so important, and it does affect the planet for hundreds of years to come, and I think if we can't have a discussion on this in full council, well, it's the most important thing we've had for years probably, and I think we should have a discussion before council sit. Can I ask for a list of the full report before council, so it will give us a chance to have a debate there rather than here. You can, and we will. Anne? It was just on a minute on page seventy-nine, I think we want to get the support of local M Ps, one a has I think, has been just indicated, is contradictory, it might be better to say, ‘although the document indicated that local authorities would be expected to undertake extra, an extra, or extra duties, the resources needed are, no indication was given of how there would be extra resources, or something like that, you see it's contradictory at the moment, it says there's no indication of the role, and then says that they would need resources, and actually if you look through the document, you will see from time-to-time it is indicated what local authorities are expected to do, for instance recycling of litter and the lot, and I think that that might be actually picked up by M P's and say, ‘Well, what actually have you, do you mean to say’, well, what we're really saying, are we not, that here is an indication of things that we're expected to do, but as usual, of course , the government hasn't indicated what erm where the resources were coming from. Kate? Sorry, chair, would you wish, when we consider this, do you wish to make the amendment? Well, you won't be able to do that until we do consider the, I mean, but, the reason I referred to page seventy-nine, is to ensure that we do not repeat ourselves, and that those of us on the sub-committee, remember what we said then, and decide whether we want to repeat that. I mean, on the items of wording, I mean, that can be done on two sub-committees. Yes, fine, I just asked, just checking. Are there items that people, I mean, I take the point about freezing C O 2 emissions. That's woolly to say the least. We may want to make the point that if we are to be committed to doing something about the global warming of the ozone layer then we will need to say when we will do it by. And ensure there's a programme which achieves that. Are there any other additions to that, if not Patrick. Yes, I'd like to support Michael in the setting up of an environmental protection agency. I think that if we leave it to I don't think it was Michael who suggested it. No, I didn't. Well! It was Peter. Oh, yes, Peter, sorry. I think it would skip to environment being the prerogative of local authorities, there will be a great variation across the country, and I don't think anybody seriously would expect that to happen about health and safety at work, and I think the same should be true of the environment. Right, just to move us on, then, since you're all going to have a go at this at council, yes? Sorry, I just wanted to refer to page eighty-one, erm sixth form conference, thirty-three. Yes erm Students will be asked to report back to the next erm sub-committee Yes they will So, shall we have a full report then to the next environment and health protection sub-committee of that report. Yes. Can I just bring you back to the item before us, which is ‘This Common Inheritance’, and ask you to endorse the sub-committees suggestions, i.e. repeat them, as comments from the health committee, with the additions from the vice-chair on environmental protection agency. on point more adequately made by the deputy about C O two emission, are there any other comments that people want to make, or are you agreed that we refer back to council as it is? Are we then taking up the point that Liz Spokes made on item one a, on page seven. Procedurally Nonnie we can't do that till we come to the sub committee. Well, so that is how it's going to council. I think it's a great pity. Clearly that will not be the case that that's how it goes to council. But procedurally, we can amend it when we get to the sub-committee. Is the sub-committee then going to meet before council. No, we have not yet taken the minutes for this sub-committee, I have simply asked you to take it together with this agenda item. All I was going to say was that clearly I agree with one thing, but one would assume that as the paper is a really a general outline that we would be seeing specific targets as the agenda's worked through over the next two three years. Oh, yes, if the government's still there, I'm sure they'll do that, yes. Thank you Graham. Well, I think they'll be a government still there! No, yours. Labour! Can I then move you on, and we will correct the pollution and control sub committee minutes when we get to them just and Nonnie. Item nine, there's a report for the half year ending on page forty-one, Tony? Yes, chair, erm, I was supposed to give the figures if they'd come out at this time. You'll notice one or two minor changes. You'll notice that instead of complaints signed in what would be technically the paragraph where they talk about service requests, because many of the requests we get from members of the public to provide a service are not necessarily complaints, but they do need our help. You'll see that both the number of requests for service, and the number of visits made are well up on previous half years, and although some of that is due to probably the highest figure on insect complaints we've ever had for six months, and erm it's not all that, much of it is lately the department has been very, very busy indeed. On food control, the level of food hygiene inspections at seven hundred and thirty we've achieved by buying in consultants to do some work for us in our priority area, and we're were able to do that with Derek Welk's retirement, leaving us with some unspent staff , and so we've achieved a higher figure there than we expected we would do. erm My cause for concern, and I think it's one that's been echoed in a number of places, is the still very high figure for food-poisoning outbreaks, for food-poisoning cases, erm you'll see we're not as high as the previous comparable half-year of last year, which was ninety-two, but that included the Keble outbreak, which you're well aware of, but at thirty-two for Oxford for a half year, that's a very high figure. We haven't had that sort of figure very often before. erm The national figure seems to be, the national figure of food poisoning cases this year looks like being in excess of sixty thousand. erm it was around fifty-four thousand last year, and the figure's just going up and up. The answer to it I just don't know, but the Food Safety Act deals with some of the future, some of the future objectives in terms of better training for people who handle food, and tighter controls on food businesses, so it's something to look forward to, and hopefully in years to come the figure will begin to drop. On erm food and noise, we're still very, very busy indeed, and our figure for noise inspection is higher than it ever has been before, and the comment that was made under that section will show you that some of that most certainly is the amount of work that the team had to carry out during the summer, one of the benefits of our glorious summer is that most of us slept with our windows fully open for three months or more and one of the dis-benefits was that if anybody else down the road had a party that went beyond normal bed-time, everybody shared that, and our team was very busy in consequence. erm On occupational health, and I don't plead for those figures, because for a time, until Helen left to have her baby, we were fully staffed, and the number of inspections and the number of notices served and the number of prohibition notices served are very encouraging indeed. The impact of the section has been very broadly based in the city, and for the first time we've added for you in very brief terms, a Domiciliary Health information of just the total number of visits made by the city health care, erm and the level of work in terms of notices served, and prosecutions, note, going up in most of the sections, particularly their units they're small numbers, but they are significant, just the same, and the table on the top of page forty-four, erm as I said earlier, I think we reached the highest level of insect complaints in the summer that we've ever had to deal with, it's very usual for us to deal with a thousand, over in the summer period, this time we dealt with sixteen hundred. An amazing amount of work carried out by the three members of the pest control team, with some additional help with larger jobs during the summer period. Thank you, Tony. I'd remind members that this report also goes to council. It's very useful if you have detailed questions on this particular report that you do let myself and the chief know well in advance, so that you get a detailed answer, quite frankly. erm I've seen Graham, Anne and Diane. Yes, erm very, very quickly, erm I notice that the swimming pool and river bathing visits had more than doubled, I just wondered what the cause of that was, and whether in fact it was mainly related to the swimming pools or to the river bathing bit erm places, and the second one is, regarding the noise, I notice that it has shot up, the number of visits to seven twenty one, but in fact, the prosecution's only gone up to one, and I wondered if Mr Fenn could tell us whether in fact because of the higher profile that had been given to this erm activity, due to its possible cut, whether in fact more people are aware of it and there were more Undoubtedly should we say, complaints of a casual nature, rather than a particularly serious nature? Well,. erm On the question of the river samples and pool samples, yes, I think one of the city pools, one of the school pools we had a bit of a problem, so that took much of concentrated attention of it for a period of two or three weeks, so that's probably a reflection, I don't think much of it relates to the river sample. We take samples throughout the year from the river, but they're really at background level, and not very helpful I must admit, in terms of getting the quality of the river improved, we can't do that. On the noise question, yes, undoubtedly the increased erm number of complaints is partly due to the higher profile that was achieved during the summer, but erm no, I don't think that the complaints were frivolous, they were complaints that were, that needed attention, and there will be one or two prosecutions following through. Remember this set of figures closes on thirtieth of September. Very often prosecutions follow on sometime after the event happens. It may be worth saying, Tony that Graham's already talked to officers and it's worth your while talking to people on the house-to-house duty rota. Parties then with noise, just imagine going up to the door where there are fifty or sixty seething people in there. In order to serve a notice you have to get a name, and that's enormously difficult, because I mean, practical difficulties need to be taken on board, Anne and then Diana. Well, having had to avail ourselves of the help of the officer who got rid of our gigantic wasp nest, I should like to say what a superb job they do, but I just wondered in view of the tremendous number, whether there is some kind of way of preventions. I know in our case, and therefore probably in a lot that it isn't always possible, they'll always find a way in, but if there was some perhaps advice to people it might bring down this number of complaints, that you could perhaps do before the wasp season begins, I don't know whether that's a possibility or not. I don't think it's possible, chair, but I will talk with Clive Williams who's our expert in that. I think the main reason for so many wasps this year is to, warm summers, and but it's basically the long summer period, because we started, you see on the wasp complaints in May, which we don't really start until half way through June, and we kept going right through, right until the middle of October, and they normally stop round the end of August, so that's the main reason; a very long, hot summer. Thanks. I'd like to second Anne's congratulations really, to the, to the men who deal with wasps nest, because they're very usually men who come along! They are all men. They are? Well, I know he was a man, I saw him! All of them are. And, I certainly have taken steps to make sure that I don't get a wasps nest, but in that particular area again, because he begged to point out to me where the wasp was getting access to, a little tiny space above my bedroom window, and that has now been sealed, so hopefully the wasps another year will find a home somewhere else that isn't quite so close to my open bedroom window. So perhaps if people were aware of some of the places where wasps can go within their home, they might be able to sort of take those conscious That wasn't actually what I had Well, be quick then! Nothing, nothing fascinating. I just wanted to know what on page forty-two under ‘Water sampling’, what the bracketing figures say four u stroke s, one u stroke s, etcetera meant, and on page forty-three, why under ‘programme and revisiting inspection’ this four one nine p was starred. I just wondered what those contexts and you will be bound to be asked it in council if it's not asked now. Thank you very much, Diana. Thank you. Chair, we do class as unsatisfactory those samples that the laboratory would covers don't reach certain standards, whatever the standard may be, and that's why we concentrate on that figure that the bathing unsatisfactory at one particular pool, where there was a serious problem. And the starred items, I think the starred items, I'm not sure now, I think, can you help here? No, I'm sorry, Ken. I'm pretty sure that the Programmed visits? Programmed visits, yes, I think they'll have been debt inspections that have carried out, whereas the higher figures above them are audit, and these are the ones that take more time, and are programmed to deal with everything, you know. May I suggest, may I suggest that's put on the report before it goes to council. Thank you, Nonnie finally Yes, erm on page forty-one, ‘unsatisfactory samples’, we have six others, erm is there a general category below six, like meat or something like that? If there was a general category, I think it would be put, however. Yes. The category ‘others’, under ‘unsatisfactory samples of food’ six. Yes, they could be a range of things, chair, I'll check out what they are and make sure you've got some Okay, Nonnie. Yes. The only other thing I would say is that you've got domiciliary health there on the bottom of page forty-three for the first time, a thing that we certainly asked for on your behalf. I suggest that the figures you've got before you are not terribly, terribly useful, and that you do invite domiciliary health to come back to you for three months to talk to you about their work in terms of the visits, the visits that they do. It will be a whole lot clearer to you then, but it's there basically because it was asked for, it's inadequate because that was all they could do on the day, having been instructed to provide it. So I apologize for that. Could I ask, Chairman, chair the number of successful prosecutions? You've got it later on in the agenda, Arthur, can we wait for that one? And the report for the half year will go to the council as you've heard. Item ten, Matthew's been patient, where is he, he's there. Food control in Oxford on page forty-five. Can I ask you before inviting you to speak to us in two or three minutes on this, say that the recommendation, in a sense I think it has been overtaken, in that there is now under fifteen a the very distinct possibility of a transfer of a very technical post from the pollution section by the end of the year. That's to say someone is leaving and we are going to take that post out and put it into the food section, and on b, I would say to Matthew that before committing us to a budget of two and a half thousand against a background of ten percent cuts, I would suggest that the health educational help-line and their day-long courses for E H Os might be made good use of in the forth-coming year. But Thank you chair. I think first of all, I'd like to be very brief, but just to say the purpose of this short report with the appendices has not got any special status with food control, just set the record straight as to what we are capable of doing currently and what we can't do. erm That was with the current staff resources with certain changes since the summer. Now, it's obviously very good that a position is going to be replaced by a technician, for which a, which at the moment is elsewhere in the department. What erm my view is that we have a current shortfall, and I think the figures highlight this, and the shortfall is in the highest of the high risk, if you like, the ultra high-risk area of catering. erm Although one would hate to be, I don't want to be accused of being elitist and saying that E H O's must do a particular job, but what I would like to say it that we need people who are trained to a sufficient level to be able to do the ultra high risk catering area, as distinct from other high-risk areas. It's my professional opinion that we have a problem there in terms of training and expertise, and I feel that, as you've said, the technician is forth-coming, we will be obviously having to draft very, very carefully a job description, but I feel that training requirements will be such that it will be very, very difficult to fulfil those requirements and indeed to cope with this ultra high-risk catering area. It's my considered opinion that the only way we can do that is by an E H O, and we will find, eventually, that we will suffer continued short-fall in terms of ultra high-risk inspection. I think it's fair to say that we've gone a long, long way in Oxford to breaking down barriers with regard to the inspection priorities, and we are in a position within the city where we have nature of, if you like, technicians and staff that are doing jobs that in many other surrounding areas, and indeed throughout the country are the prerogative of E H O, and these include areas specified as high-risk by MAFF, and include a great bulk of all customer and consumer complaints. The only area that I'm saying is in need for careful consideration is that related to risks associated with the possibilities of food poisoning and very high-risk food handling. I think really that is all I can say, chair, erm in addition to your comments. Thanks very much indeed for your report, Matthew, it's certainly very informative, and in an ideal world, I think we might have made a different decision today. Are there comments or questions immediately, Catherine? I do have a question and, and it hasn't made, that hasn't made it particularly clear as to where we are, you hinted that, and I think that was also seconded here that there might now be a post of some kind to carry on for instance the thing that I'm particularly worried about is that there's a sort of hiatus in the heartbeat awards, which I think would be a tragedy if that happened, and I want to be absolutely sure that that is, isn't so. Do I take it that actually the remarks that have just been made are really in favour of having a third E H O, but that in fact that that in circumstances, will not be possible. So I really, what I'm asking, is that perhaps it could be set out exactly now what stage we have reached, and what the recommendation is as from today. What you have before you is Matthew feeling and indeed, I would take it, supported by the chief officer. erm There always has been the situation since Derek Roberts retired, and in fact his post was put in the pollution section, where there was only one E H O, the agreement then that there would be a swap straight E H O for technician swap, but food had traditionally, as long as I've been involved have three E H Os. Now, I don't expect Matthew to support that for one moment, but what I'm saying to committee is that is our pragmatic solution at this moment. I don't expect the heartbeat award scheme to suffer, I will be in touch with Matthew fairly closely to ensure that, but I think the position of the labour group is that we cannot support these recommendations as they are but we offer you a compromise solution. Nonnie? Yes, erm, presumably the training for a technical post in the pollution section will give kind of basic bacteriology, which will be, you know, essential for going over into the food section, erm I mean, what will become. I think that's probably not the case, it isn't a person we're transferring over, it's a bit better than that, it's a post, which means that Matthew can advertise with a particular emphasis on food background. He may be right, he may not be able to recruit the ideal person. On the other hand there are some qualifications that technicians may take, we may be lucky, we may get such a person, and I hope so. Yes, so it isn't a person. Right. Matthew, are there, erm Diana? Thank you. It's a, it's a fascinating report and having been involved in the Food Forum discussion, when we, it was reported to us that we'd actually lost a community nutritionist, I read this with great interest to see just how now the professional was seen through sections. And, I mean, reluctantly we have to accept that this is not an ideal world, but I mean, just now, we were actually looking at the number of food hygiene inspections that have been done over the last few months, which have increased enormously, it just means, I mean it emphasises the fact that food has changed, food, and the number of places that are actually serving food now I mean, the corner shop does sandwiches. Everybody seems to be producing food, wherever you go food is on offer, food is for sale. I realise that many of these are not high-risk areas, but they are areas that our officers have got to, got to keep an eye on. And numbers are increasing while our staffing has actually, actually decreased. erm We've got to recognise the professional advice that Matthew is giving us in this report, that he, he needs professional trained staff, and it grieves me that really we can only offer a technician when he is asking for something more. But we are giving, we are giving him a post, another body, and hopefully with a very careful job description he will get a trained person, because we also recognise the fact that Oxford's a marvellous place for people to come. The environmental health department is seen throughout Britain as being a nice place to come. I mean, I keep hearing that when I come into the environmental health department, that, just that people are interested in what Oxford are doing. They keep busy, don't they. Well set up. Yes. So we're one of the important environmental health departments, sure, so hopefully we will actually get somebody who is really very good, a food technician to assist in this erm field, and there have, I hope that through Food Forum we may well be able to help Matthew with his, well not just Matthew, but help, help that section with the nutrition advice that he feels is still lacking in his team under the circumstances. Thanks very much Diana. Can I just remind members that, I mean there's a member of the technical staff in this room now. We have a number of technicians in the environmental health department who do some sterling work, and I know that no one here would want you to suppose that they are a kind of second-string person. They do a different kind of work, they've traditionally done considerably responsible work within Oxford City's Environmental Health Department, so there isn't a suggestion on the part of any of us that they are somehow lesser beings, because that is not the case at all. Can I put it to you that we cannot today accept the recommendation on page forty-eight. But I do move today that we transfer the technical post that will become vacant in the pollution section by the end of this year to the food section, and that Matthew together with the chief environmental health officer consider how best to write a job description, and advertise for that post, and that while I do not see us securing a budget of two thousand five hundred pounds as under fifteen b, I do recommend that the health education authority are contacted, that their help-line is used, and that our E H O's use their premises in the coming new year. I am assured that they are advertised in the Institutions Journal. Matthew, that isn't all you want, but maybe we'll be able to discuss this again in twelve months time. Thank you very much for the work you've put in. Alright. Thank you chair. Thanks. I note that we have Terry Randal here. Maybe we should take item seventeen and allow him, is ten minutes going to be enough? erm I'll try and do this in ten minutes. You'll try and do this in ten minutes. Let's straight into seventeen then, I'll just remind committee that we need to move to the confidential section at five o'clock today in order to get it finished. Item seventeen is the age-well project, the report is circulated on page a hundred and eight. We're particularly delighted actually that Tony Randall has come along to share his own very particular views on this project. You'll remember that we had a pilot project in South Oxford Health Centre, Tony is one of the G P's there, I'm expecting that he's going to be very positive about this project since we all are, in terms of it's practice service delivery. Well, then Tony, tell us about how it feels at your end. Okay, I'll give you a very brief background to the project. It started in the Autumn of eighty-eight, when Phil approached me and said, ‘Look, we would like to consider putting our services that we do offer to finance in a more effective way’, running alongside that was a project being run by Oxfordshire Health Authority where they were sending postal surveys to elderly people; people over the age of seventy erm sixty-five at one point, and were getting back a huge amount of information on their perceived needs. We thought perhaps we can use that as a goal standard, and pick up what actually happens with our project to compare the two. So that's where we were in the autumn of eighty-eight. By spring of eighty-nine, when the project had started, we'd gone quite a long way down the road, we'd decided that we wanted to be looking at what was feasible in general practice. Get this machine working over here. What was feasible general practice, and whether that was the best place to be contacting the local people. Now, the reason we particularly were interested in this was that from the questionnaire we already were beginning to get back some information, and we discovered that eighty-six percent of people had seen their G P in the previous year, and maybe if we could introduce them to the age-well project at some point during that contact, we would be able to achieve something. Against that there'll be seventeen percent of this population was seeing home-helps, five percent was seeing social workers. So we though that we would try it in general practice. Next thing to do was to set up a form. Looks horrendous, but bear in mind these elderly people have just answered a sixteen page postal questionnaire with no help. And what's more eighty-six percent of them answered it. And I was quite impressed by that. We gave them a sheet of paper which said what we were, what we're doing, and said please, if you want any help in any of those areas, just tick the box, and if you don't want any help, tick this little box, and that's what they had to fill in. And they were given this when they were brought into the surgery by the receptionist. We discovered very rapidly that if it was the doctor that had to present the age-well project to the patients that quite often they forgot to do it. In greater detail I could look at what kind of coverage we've got, but I think in ten minutes I don't have time to do that. Suffice it to say that amongst the people who were not contacted by this project within the first year are some of those seeing doctors on eight occasions. The receptionists are much at giving out these things than doctors. They can do it while they're waiting, couldn't they. On the back of the form, we simply have a method of writing down anything that's interested, and also includes a sticker of who the person is, a particular one. So I thought we could look at results now, which are probably the thing that's most interesting. Just taking that form with those boxes, that's how people responded. This thing breaks it down by age, as I say, we're looking at seventy-fives and over. More than half the people don't want any help at all. Well, I think that's, we can accept the point easily. erm Quite a lot of help required in areas of the remit of this committee I would guess, things like home, security and safety, heating down here, quite a lot of people want help with heating. they're both, press it hard right that's going. Press the one, the black one behind there to switch it off. So we're on now are we? Come on beauty Have you made any tea? No. Oh dear, oh dear oh dear. Oh you hello little doggy. Try cooking this ham, do you think they might like it then? Sorry? The ham. The dogs. Try cooking it. Oh. Well wouldn't be able tempt them into er I mean really they should they don't mind Well that's the availability of the things isn't it? I think you might have to er take him down the road afterwards when it clears up. Oh you're not going to take them with you? Well See how it goes It's going off a bit now isn't it? Oh no. Erm you do realize this ham is already cooked don't you? No. No. Thought it might, they won't eat it like that, that's Have they not eaten anything at all? I haven't given them anything yet. Oh. pliers and the screwdriver out take them with you No, for that job I was doing last night. The ca Oh yes on the er the castors castors. into the garage Yes Have you gotta be there early this morning? No. Oh. But I want to get there for nine. I said to John yesterday I said I I've done the er chair. I said I wanna get on with these, those dining chairs next in the sale. When's the sale? Summer time isn't it? About June? Erm May some time in May. Well where are you going to get the fabric for those? Trip to Yes Margaret, what do you think? brilliant ideas And see they were asking me what I was gonna use yesterday and I said oh I don't know I said, I haven't got a clue. something about er tapestry. I said oh you're No spending a lot of money and er Don't forget I said it's not for us anyway so it's going to take a lot of fabric both sides and the back. Full length of the back of the chairs across the seat Exactly. probably be yards of material that, and you've got six chairs so And you'd have to buy it off the roll, you're not going to get a piece a length at six yards are you? You know Where's your cup? That's mine there, I've got mine out. Oh In the bathroom. Sun's trying to come out. Well I'll be able to take them down in a minute. We'll have to take this thing to Ken's. Mm mm Ah look batteries. I'm sure it's in Pauline's garden because I've seen a few times. E T mm watching that Yes. Don't you dare. They look like pink flowers on there don't they? Must be the leaves I think because I don't think it flowers this shrub here. It's the leaves. Mm. That dogwood I moved I'm hoping it's gonna be alright cos it doesn't s show much sign of life at the moment. Oh I put it down the other end. Oh. I wonder did Ann stop smoking yesterday? Mm. Likes her fags doesn't she? Well think, didn't she give up last year?she said something about it last year on radio, on no smoking day. Alright muff? Must be torture for some people. Terrible. Wonder how many cigars Ken's consuming every day now? Well I think it's only about four. It's a lot though isn't it? Should be about four a week four a day Mm Oh god, there's snow. Mm well we haven't seen any this year have we really? Too late now. Yeah too late to be serious I was wrapped up to the eyes when I went u down to put my walking boots on as well because they're comfortable and there were people going going round in their shellsuits and you know I must be feeling the cold more now . I don't think I'd have been warm enough in a shellsuit. Now what about eating up your meat? Come on. Ooh that's better. Do you wanna go for walkies? Mm? Do you wanna go for walkies? You do? Walkies okay. Now it's on, the light comes on doesn't it when it's on? Ooh! So I've left that form there for you to erm Oh right-oh. Oh do, do you want these bin bags? Yes, gonna take those to get us some water. Oh While it's going, what? this morning really but what can you do? Isn't there any at all? No. Oh. How is it? It's not bad, it's she can get on for an hour I mean they are at the moment and if I have a meeting well after about an hour it seems as though you've working Oh dear god Those chrysanthemums done well. They have, yes they're er they're good value those a pot, I mean but they're reasonably when did you get it? It must be about three weeks ago. Can't think what it was for now. I think it was one of those impromptu ones. I know it wasn't my birthday you just came in with it didn't you ? It's birthday. I mean the only trouble is they're no use afterwards are they? Must have had a brainstorm I said they're no use afterwards are they? I don't I don't know. Because they're forced I reckon. Oh. I think they'll grow if you put them in the garden eventually. Well Well I mean they won't flower again, that's for certain you see and it's it's gotta be No, well not this year anyway, they they could Oh right. Have you got, oh ta look take this as well. Yes I'm taking it. Oh. I'm going to have a go at this today. They've dried out a bit, been too tacky to do anything with. Bye bye chaps, don't let them out. No see you then. Did they try and drag you up the farm yesterday? Well he's, he actually was off the lead and he went straight through right to the other gate Oh and you kept them off the road did you? You didn't just er Oh yes well the gate was open so and I always do so she went into the second field I'm not going No it's a quag carried on for a while realized in the end he had to come back It's in a bad state hang on Bye, see you later. Switch that on while you're Morning Shirley. That's twice this week Five to nine Whatever's happening? I'm going going back the other way. I don't know I mean ten o'clock yeah that's normal for you. It's not, half nine is my No I know you . Alright Terry, how you doing lad? Oh looking at his mummy with eyes a shiny blue That bloody car of mine, hear the trouble I had? I was late yesterday wasn't I? Yes the carburettor? No, no I it's the M O T you see Oh next, next week so the other front pads are worn Yeah discs like got four pads and I thought oh an hour put those on isn't it? Not much of a job when it came to put them on like the erm you know the pipe that pushes them out? Yeah, yeah You've gotta push them back haven't you? And you've usually got yeah that's right too much fluid in yeah Well it says in the book, push them back with a stick . With a what? With a stick and a piece of Yeah Well if it's frozen there's no way so er I rang up Mobil you see in and the fellow said oh if it's been on for s you know few years he said, take your calliper off, put it in the vice and just lever it back that's what we do Yeah. Goes to get the flexible hose off that was ruddy frozen, you the, the union? Yeah, yeah Rang him up again he said oh aye well we usually change those he said, the weather gets on them. Said they're not like the old ones that go like as though they're welded Yeah. and you're turning the whole pipe. He said the only, the other thing you can do is loosen it off take the calliper b and turn the calliper round. Yeah. It's like turning the car round to take off a bloody bolt, you know? Oh I thought I'll do that to save another hose. Anyway did that course he said you'll have to bleed it out Yeah. Did the first one right this was on er Wednesday afternoon you see? So came to do the other side, went to the same routine the nipple snapped off. So any rate I rang this fellow I said eh he said oh he said you've got no chance mate, he said. He said you can drill it out but he said you oh aye your the thread gets damaged and the seating That's right, yeah. and he said if you get one leak on that your brakes Yeah. you're shot. So a new calliper how much do you think for a new calliper? No idea. Seventy pound plus VAT from Volvo's. Bloody hell! So I thought there's no way, so I rang round the scrapyards. Yeah. There's one at Greenville he said oh twenty five pound plus VAT. That's what I did, yesterday morning went with my mate came back, stuck it on so it's cost me the, the pads were seventeen twenty, thirty pound for the what's a name and fifty quid near enough just to do the front brakes. Bloody hell. And that's before the M O T. Yeah yeah. The other week it cost me fifty quid to go to the, to get it tuned you know? Cars, honest to god. You want some money today don't you, just to ruddy eh? They work out twenty five pounds an hour in garages. Oh, oh well well you don't go there do you, unless you've got bloody hell. Well our M O T guy, fair do you know and he'll say so and so wants doing, can you take it away and do it? Yeah. And he doesn't charge. Yeah. These other ones, as soon as you leave do it yourself that's another twenty quid for a re-test Yeah. Oh aye. You do it there they only charge fifteen is it or something if they do it. But I mean you know as you just said then they'd wanna charge you per hour it's Yeah. beyond the working man. Now Shirley, you're still messing about with this little job here. Well I wanted the sander. We're just coming in a minute. isn't it? Yes I like this business of putting your what's a name on this d with this you know, the glue on. Well it was so flaky, the wood Yeah. And that sort of seals But it in doesn't it? Well it seals it but it also helps to erm give you some purchase you see for Yes that's right, when you put the next lot in. the patch, yeah but if you had just glued that then Alright Bri, how's it going mate? Oh just work innit? The gentleman there's going out with me round about quarter past eleven do you wanna come with us and call in to that place? Where oh where you going? See about the wood... Oh yeah alright then, yes See if you can get any wood alright, yeah just see what he says. Did you bring a sample in? No, I never thought. No But I can ask him and I'll Well tell him er you know, he knows yeah er See it all hinges on if he's got a bandsaw, if he if he hasn't got a bandsaw, wasting our ruddy time. He's going out the port about quarter past eleven. Yeah it won't take long will it? Because I've got myriads of things to do. Never mind. Oh you're on about her, oh go oh aye, oh well. Don't start that again, you know what I mean? Well she I'm gonna get that lad some. Now if you want some more there You mean Tony is it or ? Is it Tony? The young fellow who or erm Tony Tony Tony Oh Yeah. We'll see what he says anyway. Yeah. See what the guy . Yeah no trouble mate, yeah just sing out when you're ready boy. Victorian dressing table Oh oh that's nice. I I did glance over yesterday er Yeah. but er fair job I'm doing. Oh that's nice that. Where's the rest of it? It's near the table, moved it. Paula was Paula's here? instead of driving screws through the top. Yeah. Screws just at the front underneath here This was in a bad state cos er this was this was up like er like that. Yeah. This and this end had caved, being unsupported. So it worth a few bob. Oh aye yes it's nice. I like the legs. What does Brian think of the legs, any good? hand made nails Oh yeah. there yeah. Yeah the old cast iron nails, they're good aren't they? black nails Yeah. Yes I like that. Yeah you can use them again. I'd just drill a hole me and knock them in, you know? As I say I Smart innit? Yes I like that er Rather than waste all of the oak in the old days here have, have faced it Oh yeah yeah he's put like a fillet on the front yeah yeah all the way round yeah you see? Of oak. Yeah. Rather than use solid oak. Do a lovely smart job on that don't we? Gluing it on, eh?messing like that today. Pooof! But er yes that would go anywhere that wouldn't it? he gave me a before he went on holiday and he hasn't come back. Shirley gone up now. Anyway I must box on chaps. Must get something done Bri. Moonlight becomes you it goes with your hair and it it's so romantic to know moonlight becomes you so Morning Morning Chris how are you love? I'm alright thanks, how are you? Very good. Morning John, how you doing lad? Morning. Alright. You've got it cracked have you? You're all dressed up to go dreaming don't tell me I'm wrong I'm sure I've seen that material before somewhere you know. Don't I'm sure I've seen that material somewhere before. Morning Jo Morning Jo Morning Margaret Morning Paula Oh she's not speaking to me this morning Paula. I've upset her. I know what it is Paula, I haven't borrowed anything yet. Hello love. How are you love? Alright thanks. How are you? Sweating. I'm sweating, no I'm What do you think of that? Ooh aye! Hey, that might do for my chairs do you think? Would that, that style my dining chairs, what do you think? It's just quilting, that's all it is. Oh it's qu oh no it's for er it's more like curtains is it? No. Oh. It's going on me chair. It's going on the box. Oh I see yeah so I suppose it's box gotta be heavy stuff I see yeah, er yeah oh that's a good id She said it was a remnant and I thought I'd make a box for the sale. But do you like the colour? Yes, it's gorgeous that isn't it eh? Oh thank christ for that. No it's not gaudy, it's er Well it was, it was so cheap Well yeah this is it you see, yeah it was only a couple of pound a yard. That's what I'll have to get for these chairs a remnant. I've got six chairs to do, where from,Abercanny Yeah. Oh I'll see if I can get some of that. You see you're you, you're better to go to Moston because you're halfway, you're there aren't you, living in Queensferry? Yes yeah. You know, go to, go to Moston, it's much quicker Yeah oh yeah, yeah. But you can't get Just go up on the A fifty five Quite often the remnants aren't very good you know Paula. Oh they are got miles I know but a lot of it's rubbish isn't it? It's not all good stuff like this. What, do you think that's rubbish then? Who John? You pointed to him then. had a bloody row this morning already Oh Well I, I wanted just a small box like what you made. Wasn't satisfied with it, he goes and makes a big one as well but I don't want a big one, I don't wanna do a big one for the sale I just wanna do a small one. Ah well he's always wanted a big one. Yes And er and a stool with a seat to match, that's all I wanted. Mm. That's typical never satisfied with what I do. typical of him. Oh Eh? What a mistake you made. Right what are we doing John? Chairs we're doing today. There's six of those to do, now then. Yeah put them in the sale, you know I'm gonna put them in the sale see if we can get a few bob right, pattern first I should imagine. many people coming to the sales. I won't let you I've only put, I've put stuff in. Yeah. You know but I er never actually I, I I made about sixty quid last year, you know? Oh yes I believe it gets er quite a lot, it's er well yesterday there weren't many for that open day. But for the sale er it's well advertised you know and er there's a lot of people seem to know about it, you know connected with the college mainly I suppose, they get their mates to come ooh there's good stuff and there is some good stuff, you know? Yeah. So it's er it seems to do pretty well. I'll er I'll try to get a few things, make a few bob you know, to don't mind me asking, what would you expect to ? Don't know yet. Well I'm hoping a hundred plus you know? Yeah. Well christ you've gotta be, I've paid that to be honest Yeah I've paid seventy for the bloody things. Yeah. Erm I dunno Oh they're nice chairs hundred and thirty maybe I'm not, I'm not quite sure to be honest er not quite sure old mate. Yeah I'll see what they say, you know, erm I'll John, he had a set of erm high backed reproduction erm what do they call them now? Regency nineteen twenties,in the twenties Yeah out of mahogany. They are nice though, they've got the Queen Anne legs and the high back you know? Yeah. He got about er two hundred for those last year, set of six. You know he just bought them from sale or whatever it was, sixty, seventy quid bit of polish. They were not mistaken. Did, he did well. Some of them have a lot of stuff, you know I don't seem to ever get hold of the stuff me, to tables and that little Eric in there he seems to get loads of stuff Yeah I can't he's got a lovely table there hasn't he?it's a nice one. He's got a lot of connections Eric, you know and I have very few I'm afraid. There you go. Thank you. and I think that's why we've got such a good dentist. Mm and he erm he was very upset about it. Then he by that time this expensive and that's the one that's . So he said start again. You're still paying out that's the trouble, all the time. Well that's it. But on the other hand, what can you do about it? You can't No, no it's oh no you can't go round gummy. We're going to, we've, we've got this going down to for three weeks, you know next weekend or the weekend afterwards, and we don't keep getting appointments, see I'm gonna keep ringing him up and pestering him and saying Mm have you got a cancellation? It's life isn't Ray? Oh yeah. I mean I mean what friend of ours, he, he hit his tooth, got a lovely tooth Ken he's sixty one now, never had much trouble you know Snapped this one off er you know in an ac he fell over or whatever, on his Yeah, that's right. said oh god he didn't know whether to pull it out there and then But it's very hard But went to the dentist and he said leave it pushed it right back and he said it will grow back. Did it? Oh yes. Ah it must Long as the roots are Oh well yes, oh well yeah, oh well now obviously So er I mean my boy had a er a terrible accident ten years ago and smashed all his face all his teeth were when we first saw his face he'd got no teeth left but it's got them all back. And they're all back and yeah even though they were all, they were all loose I mean still fresh you see the, the break. And it's, the life is in the, still in the tooth if you can find it, but of course sometimes they've gone haven't they? Too late for us Put up with what we've got eh? What? Put up with what we've got. Well as I say I look after mine but I've only got the one missing. Mm I'd hate to have a load of chop ooh was scared only children he was scared wasn't he? Tony was frightened. Oh yes that's stupid that, he he'll end up if he doesn't go, with a mou a mouth of sort of black He, he'll have them all out. Yes. If he we used to the children I think that's awful if young people even our grandchildren were, I mean er right from the beginning even if they only go and sit in the surgery and just watch,ju you know just go and visit Yeah that's, that's what they do now yeah. Get them trained, get them Yes, yeah so they're not terrified. That's right, I mean there's no pain I think they were frightening years ago when they, when we were kids so they're frightening places. Well we had no, we had no erm nothing to stop the pain. No. We had no injections, we were just put in a chair and, and it cost That's right two guineas for every filling I know, it's a lot of money. I mean Yeah, week's wages yeah. But we, he didn't get more than two or three guineas a week did he when we were first That's right, yeah yes Then we get, I know our dentist was very good, we've always said that if we had a good dentist and a good doctors we're on our holidays, and we have, we've been lucky wherever we've been Mm. Mm. we've had good dentists, good doctors. Oh it pays you to get a sympathetic one and one that's er not on the But this one is lovely. This one's young and he's so gentle, you know he Yes. Oh they're marvellous. I think that's what Tony's harking back to, the old style when you went and they were a bit er callous. Yes indeed well,young, how old is he? Twenty five? He's only in his twenties, yeah he ought not, no it wouldn't be would it? No. Twenty years ago they were, they were alright weren't they? What am I thinking about? No I'm thinking about Well you know the first time I went was oh I dunno, before the war you know when I was about four or five and I went to get one out I mean my parents but it was terrible I was screaming, I was terrified and, and, and I can still see the place you know, there's something very foreboding about the, the place and the chair was like a And everything was hard wasn't it? And they wouldn't mess about if you, you they slapped you if you didn't do as you were told. So that put me right off for a start. But erm you only get one good set don't you? That's right. I And also you see right from, right from pregnancy Well they get it free don't they? At the moment. yeah. I mean er it's before they're conceived that you've got to try to Oh yes, yes. I mean it's no good smoking yourself to death and then er That's right. falling for a baby and then saying No no oh dear Well that makes me ill now. It didn't used to but when I, I, I, I feel like going up to these girls and saying for god's sake take that thing out of your mouth. That's right. When they're pregnant or they've got a little baby. It's horrible. I mean But you know you can't tell people. This friend of ours who lost his wife last year, well we've got another friend who was very fond of her she also smokes we just happened to me we didn't say No. I mean it's happened now so we never Absolutely. No you can't. say to th this chap you know but we just happened to mention in passing to Jeanette and she really jumped and said oh Pat didn't smoke a lot. But Was it very sudden? we know via my daughter she's a nurse and she said no cancer get a lot of uterine cancer and all this it's not, not in the lungs now. Forget that. That's obvious. But all the other things That's right. it goes to. But you can't tell these people. They won't listen. This lady we're on about now she's she must be on forty, fifty a day. A nervous smoker. See how does she afford it? Well that's right, they're both of them at it. God knows. pin this to the chair Oh god help well get Brian to do that, he loves it. Morning Bruce, how you doing lad? You busy? yeah. Well pleased. What have they got you on this morning? Oh and, and a door there to keep you people nice and warm. Oh, now? The summer's coming on now. We do things back to front yes We had three lots of different blues and that's the only one I really like Poor old John's puzzled is he, all the time? No he doesn't mind actually, he's very good. No oh we go a l and it looks nice. He likes a change. You see that the, the, it's so dark in here anyway Ray because Mm the wall as you know backs Yes on to the pub so I haven't got any window at the back. It's all at the front, yes yes, yes I've only got the window at the front, so the dining area is quite dark dark, yes yes. so but I wanted something bright in there you know. Mm. But it was only a temporary in there,like the floor and everything just a, a brown carpet because of Honey Oh yes with her season but now right she doesn't have it now yeah I shall get a nice carpet in there now you know? It'll be right one day. Joan I think I'd better box on with the webbing here love, I haven't got enough Sorry? I'll bo I'd better box on with the webbing on the back. Haven't got me glue anyway so A box? No, box a Coventry expression, get on Oh. get on with me webbing on the back. what you were talking about I'll box on box on. So I want two down is it and three across? Something like that. Two down and three a er there's some there Sound like a crossword. What? Webb is that what you're asking me for, some webbing? No I've got webbing here. I've got, no Oh, well what are you asking me for? Oh ho how many to do. I'm just saying I'll have I'll have to leave me foam to next week and get some glue so er Well there's some glue in the jar to stick some But I can't see any there Er the spray try the Oh is that glue is it? Yeah it is. Oh is this the latest? Give it a good shake though Oh er oh I see, okay, give that a go. That's the latest that's the latest We'll take Manhattan now then, couple it's quiet in here today John isn't it? There's not many folks about, what? Oh smashing Th that's where the erm the back goes in too far. Oh of course. See so I, in fact I was wondering whether to just Couple of gimps maybe? you know just to a er er Yeah. draw attention to the fact that they are Yes. but it is round the back I know Yeah, never be seen will it? I can't say three brass things, no it shouldn't be seen really, so I don't know whether I'm drawing attention to it by putting brass things Yes that's the thing, of course. I s Cos it's got a handle on it now at the front here round the other side Yes I'm gonna do mine something like this I think. Have you er it is sprung is it? Pardon? Sprung? Yes. Ooh did it, they Dear god. Bloody he It didn't actually have a handle on it. Just put one on it Yeah yeah well you could have a bit of material couldn't you? Yeah. Looks a bit rough. Yeah Bloody hell! This webbing now is that alright love? Yes. Now you've, your material didn't go the other way on that these chairs did they, before you No put the webbing on? Yes it just goes on to the edge here. Oh yes. I going to hide the back, all that webbing? Oh no oh no wait a minute, no Yeah, you realize do you it's what it, what's wrong. The, the fro the top cover should have gone on first should it? Material gone on first. Oh yes procedure for any tackle, if you haven't got any the cover must go that way. oh I, I'd never, I I realize now from six weeks ago when I got the damn things Yeah. and it's gone blank. Of course the top material's gotta go on first Joan hasn't it? Yes. What am I? Mm. Yeah. Star pupil for doing such silly things . So really I'm stymied on that aren't I? What I'll do today Yeah you'll have to take those er those off and machine them all together. You can use them on something else. Yeah well that's no problem. What I'll do, I'll measure up today for er Yeah the top material work out a plan for how much I'll want. How much you need. I'll try and get through the neutrally. I dunno Yeah, how many have, have you got? Six. Six? Cos I might be putting a table in the sale on its own but it's a it's dark Oh i it's darker than that. oh. Yeah. Well actually it's mahogany, it's brown mahogany. Oh, oh, oh. That's no good. Whether, you know, people might have bought them as a set otherwise. Yeah, yeah that's what it wants, someone with big turned legs W yeah, some, some yeah on the table. You see them don't you? Oh well Oh have you? Oh you're doing a good job there John. How many did you say today. What are these? Two? No it's four. Oh four, oh it's a set is it? Nice. Is it keeping these are you or ? For now. I'm really Yeah after a set of six. Ah, oh well yeah er But rea what I really want, is a set of six barley twist. I mean it's gonna take me ages trying to find them anyway. But I've got a barley twist table. Ah you see them yeah, yeah table and you want them to match in gonna make it er two eventually Yes, yes but these will do, four of these will do temporary anyway Yeah, nice. but I want a set of six in the end. I mean how often do you use six? Well we do, there's five of us in the family see Oh I see Yeah so we had four kids I mean now it's only when we get visitors you know when Yeah. there's only two of us, you get two visitors we're alright as a four Saying that we don't We keep ours in the garage, the extra two carvers Oh yes. and they come down when you know, if we've got any When you need them. Mm. Otherwise it's just a waste really. Well that's probably what I'm gonna have to do. You can get, you can get sets of four can't you? Oh yes But six hard to get. I'll just try and get two carvers to match Yeah, that's, that's the answer really and er if they're not quite the same you can get away with two carvers can't you? But er oh well Yeah this is what got me, I like the er the legs you know, the the backs I, I didn't like at all because you've got this blue Well You've got no no m no wood that's showing you see, that's the trouble. Yes, yes. Yeah Erm but I'm hoping they'll put them on a, on the table when we sell them in here and there's that's the first thing that'll hit them is the turned legs you see? Nice. This is a su survey. finished at one point but it's veneered Mm But erm this, but this was exposed then? The material That, it's down to there, yes Oh that's a shame. but this had been put on so it, it spoilt Oh I see. Yeah, yes so you know you'd got veneer and then you'd got really crappy wood. The pine and that, yes. But also people had put nails in the veneer and bits had fallen off and Ruined it, yeah. there wasn't any point in me trying Felt like a bit of challenge there. Well you know me nothing if there's any woodworking going Is this today is it? Yes. Too late now. Yes, but you went last week so I didn't but they'd got stuff for you Oh I I thought I had loads of Oh Ray! Never mind my fault Sorry I didn't ask because I knew My fault. No, no they'd got something for you Actually er last Friday didn't they? This erm Yes. Yeah, he got me some springs Yes well that's why I didn't ask because I assumed No you'd ordered everything no Sorry. I only need a bit. I can get some from er Chester perhaps, for what I want you know? So er how often does this do they go to then, how often is this order? Is it Er this is just one that I wanted some stuff and I said to a few people Oh you went round? I see, yeah. and they're delivering it. I've actually the last time I got some delivered for me was February so I tend to sort of get something about once a month I think. Mm It really depends what I'm doing, if I'm doing a lot of stuff, then I don't need Yeah to go because I've got all the hair Loads yeah But at the moment I seem to have done a lot of stuff with foam so I tend to forget, me, honest to god I think I've plenty and then you come to the you say oh god you know it's never mind. Well next time I'll remember you. Next time if you'd ask me, and I still won't know. Half past twelve! I might as well go through on this, I was gonna go in that one. Yeah I'll, I'll go, this fellow's moving now so I'll go in there. So you've got a big garden have you Arth? Oh, no Oh. got a decent size back garden. Mine is, yes yes, yeah. It's er Birkenhead you live is it? I live in Oh you told me! But you're a Birkenhead guy are you? No, Oh you're a scouser? Mm mhm What part? Eh? What part? Manfield. Oh that was the, the rough part. Oh aye yeah, well I am rough aren't I? Highton Highton I came a nice part. rough are they. never used to fight with lads. they're a tough crowd. oh yeah watch the showers. Yeah nasty aren't they? actually now isn't it? Oh it has come lovely now, with the old sun but there's more to come I think. Er where do you live Chris, you say Cristleton is it? No no I'm not Oh it wouldn't be Cristleton far away. No erm really Oh you're not a on the Chester high road. Oh yes You know the Shrewsbury Arms? Oh yes? Well it's just the road at the back gardens we used to go there Yeah. Oh that's nice, yeah. Specially in the spring time when the azaleas are out and that. Yes yeah. Yes oh gardens is fabulous, yeah. Mm. But now you've gotta pay You have yeah so much to go in Well we we used to join as a, you know, you could become a friend of gardens That's right, yeah and it was quite reasonable. Now it's really gone a bit bit over the top I think. Mm pay so much a year. So erm Yes. Oh I used to pay a year from when you from when you first started paying but Mm I've missed the one in January now and I think, oh , I've paid for a year but It's a lot of money. It's only odd days, it's it's perhaps lovely there in the winter when it's snowing and things I know it's absolutely gorgeous. First seats will obviously in action Have you seen the papers? No No, the lady came to the house. Well the lady came here Just knocked on the door? Yes. Yeah. A , and said what? And Well just read, just read what it says there. Well I mean Sh , what she said to me you could probably save me reading wouldn't it? Yeah the doing er, say four, in this area but I There were three. Some down in the Midlands. I think that's the same isn't it ? And we selected all intelligent looking ones. Yeah but Bar one! showed him. So they made a mistake filling it in? Anyway, she So we've still got the Anyway he said so he couldn't do it! Well I'd only just brought it in the kitchen actually. Oh, I thought I'd give you a chance to put on your I don't care! your posh accent. Ray, had it . wasn't just for me I'd like to know him. You can,. Careful! Totally, all the complications and of course, they've been absolutely abnormal. You still going on? Okay, it's on. No, not really . Wherever a description of youth. Well where have you been today? What is it? What have you been doing? Oh is it going? It's good! Anyway, listen! Mm. Do you want do you want any help to do these posts that's what your down as today? I think there's Want it on don't you? I just switched that on now yes. So er so you had a good time? What about Oh yeah. full life? I did your dad's figures as well. He came home at the home didn't you? He had to come home! Oh! Well I've sa , is it secret? He went Paul . Oh the other day? Mm. Well Monday, Wednesday and Friday. For those who were staying there I mean. Did you have any Yeah, obviously Oh well that's lucky I was gonna say did you have any No, no. paperwork to do at night. We had some homework to do Yeah she did a little bit, yeah. So is there a, a bar there and all this caper? Oh yeah yep. Subsidised? No. No? No. I thought it might be like one of these clubs, you know. We chip in. I'm getting bloody paranoid about that! Yeah, that's the trouble. But no tha But Yeah , when are going back, yeah. And this is just normal. Yeah, that's fine. But seriously they want ten times whatever ! And the bricks! Ya. where else can you say and we had it's not the brick Not that old chestnut! Of course. So er got the pads seventeen quid weren't they? No, seventeen pence you could do it yourself! What do you mean? Yes, well when I hear do the job couldn't you How much? Seventeen Seventeen yeah. You're kidding! Should of gone to to do they did mine for fifteen quid! Brake shoes and that Dixons as well! Oh no, tell a lie twenty five quid it was. Well this Fitted! car. Oh Emma's isn't fitted This is the Volvo though isn't it? Expensive on the Volvos. The price is usually cheaper than Well Renault first. Yeah. Oh was that for the Renault in? And the Yeah. tried to give which you've gotta do the cos they Not bad! so much fluid in the grill. And all the rest! They tied the car so they could get in the vice. The Volvo . It's alright to use. Sally said we had to anyway, I did one side didn't I? Yeah. Carefully! Open the Ahhh! Then go do the other side Haven't got much of a bump! And the er There's nothing there ! No. You looked bigger at Honest, and stuff like that Seems to going longer doesn't it? Yeah. That isn't due for an hour there So January it snapped off! So what do you do? There's the calibre with the, with the gone! So I Don't ! I end up going to Greenfield Get down! Twenty five pound for a second hand one plus Ooh Jesus! Seventy pound in the Volvo. I thought you were gonna say you've broke the engine mounting on the machine What can we do ? and then you had to go and let it get a new engine! This is bad enough! All because of a brake that was Don't joke about things like that Paul, please! But you know he'd got a huge parlour there was nothing wrong within this one thing and you know, we tried to drill it out you know What? Mm. Ha ! You'll knock it off! the seating Go on off, off, off! We went down to the Oh oh oh! buy a bowl of stuff Oh! He said here are and tapping him over the nose He puts his head sort of, down Oh! the end of his neck doesn't he? So, but when I tried it it Very funny! Just all the luck of draw isn't it with things like that? Oh yes You've just gotta be Mhm. ! If it's if it seems solid then you you got no Stay away from the ! pipes. The actual hose is about that long. It looked as though he it was all in one Keep him quiet. and then I spoke to the feller, said aye! Is that the union? It's supposed It's something there in a magazine the other week there. Found something wrong with his What animals do, like and what it means. he said they just do. And they were saying that when they lick each others Yeah what does that you know? Apparently it's the the one who's doing the licking is looking at the But they tell you Yeah. whatever they do it means is the turn I thought now erm sort of So I did that both sides so that Like he's sort of saying that he's the boss! Li like the leader of the . Yeah. Could be alternatively older ones or something like that. Well Well I'll tell you what ah, you'll never be er Ja just rubbing and giving him Oh, he could of er He started on my Renault Subjugated! and it's been running well since I just they'd have to. keep your fingers crossed and not Oh I don't know I had a subjugated about that. They do . So Fair does like rather than Mm,tha , that's why I didn't say like paying out for a feet aren't they sometimes ? And the brake pads had gone Yeah. Yeah. Oh yes, you've gotta replace them They're sort of saying that you are really testing your I mean, I replace mine To see that but but the brakes Mm. But they don't your But the brakes literally bleed them I mean your cat. No I did that before Yeah. to do it's not very dangerous. I hope so. You wonder what that is same as you have in the A delightful thing to be i I think you was doing the same to Cathy weren't you? And, everyone goes Cathy can the meeting. Well at the what's er What? just walking back ! That I think will be Perfect wife! Good heavens! With the greenhouse . What's this, the Boy's Brigade? Yes it is. My God Almighty! Here comes the boys. Where are you from, from Mould Cygerly Cygerly Oh, aye! Live in hope die in Cygerly , ay? Well well I've got them all wedged in now. Oh no! Bu There we go right. Thank you Okay! Thank you! Bye! And Went to the hospital with a lady down the road Yeah. and Val was on the, got to be home from where you know? Oh yes Yes. Yes. I did phone her a few weeks ago and she said, ooh I'll have to see you on Friday in Mould you know get a Yeah. a bit of a coffee but er Oh well, we were coming home on the bu , rest bus together. Oh yes. Well she's fine yeah. Yeah. Well. Still working? She normally get's a in Oh in Wrexham. Is she still working at She didn't or no on the ? Did she Yeah. Did she work in Prescott I, I thought she'd no, she went She's to she went to Lesher didn't No, she told me she went she? No, she told me she was in another place, I've never heard of it,. I'm sure somebody told me that she was working with the trainee at er Oh, well she told me she was working, but I'd never heard of, some sewing place, it must be in Wrexham. Oh did she? but she said they'd laid her off. Oh! Ooh dear, so er But at moment she isn't working but she said In between. for them to ring her back. Oh! So she said they've rang her back cos you know I think she's going there again. But I don't Mm. Bretfords sh , well she said, I'm sure she didn't say Bretfords No, I I think it was somebody I was talking to from Bretford who said that she'd gone she was looking after the Oh maybe, yeah. trainees in Leighbridge Do you remember when they had them That's right yeah. For so many months I think didn't they? That's right. And then cos I said, ooh are, are they going to open up again? Yeah. But er but it hasn't has it? It wasn't anything no. And nobody's taken the place over have they? No it's just bought, well they've got planks across it now, save the cars turning round in there. Oh, boarded up the street? Well, you know The, the access roads, yeah. Down street people going and parking up there. Do , oh! What a shame! I mean And it's at the end it's The whole village relied on that got a sale board didn't they for Yeah. work? I wonder what for sale or rent. It's awful for the people that's at the wrong age, and too early to retire really it's Yeah yeah You know early fifties and Too old to get another job! Yeah, but it's all, Christ Er I mean you can't flaming well drive in, can't get out village! No, when are you having driving lessons? Ohhhh dear dear! Oh ! Is that another story is it ? You want empty road you see when you're trying one lady said to me take everyone else . off the road and I'll be happy! Isn't he terrible! Oh! I'm er Is he I, yeah I go well I've started going again now er aren't very good! He said to me should add erm you know like being Bit like is what he said. Oh. And he said you'll be able to go round the roundabout then I the flaming things! So he said you couldn't have done! So I sa have, so I told him what he said, and he said well that's exactly what it says in the book! I said yes, well why don't you do it? I said because in the bloody book there's no cars on the roundabout and I says it ! I said you bring me three o'clock You really in the morning I'll go round the roundabout for you when it's empty! Mm, that's it innit? I said but when I come here there are cars everywhere, I says on on the picture there isn't a car in sight! He sat there and burst out laughing but he said yeah you're right,there isn't ! Did you tend to come on No well well I've started again now. Yeah. Does Yvonne go out with you or No because she's got an X R two and their, the insurance is too high for her to Yeah. to insure it for me. Oh God, yeah! Mm. Well the insurance for her is higher then. How's she doing anyway still in er She's doing a ? now in er . Oh good! It's a new thing come out now I don't know whether it's Two, er, two two thousand is it? Project two thousand. Yes. Is that it? Project two thousand Yeah. that's right yeah. She has Yeah. to do so many big things,Bangor the University and so many . Yeah yeah it So they get like a degree or something it's at the end of it. It's strange well erm I mean with, Bon's just qualified now and she trying to get a job down in Portsmouth but erm you know they're not they don't Terrible! seem to be recruiting at the moment. But erm she was saying there were a group that she sort of went were alongside their group which were the Yeah. Project two thousand, but it it seems to be mostly class work and very Yeah well little practical work, whereas the group she was in you know, it was so many weeks of school but the majority like Bonny hasn't she of it was actually on the ward isn't it? But he won't come in Wrexham now they're not on the wards much. No. No. And they only get advantage of getting A lot of it's er Well theory isn't it I believe er Yeah. Yeah. they don't get a great Which I mean for er for a hospital taking people on like that, I mean erm I would of said i it would would of been a better proposition to have somebody who's at least experienced. Or well Yvonne said she wouldn't Yeah. have ever gone into nursing now because she said I wouldn't do it for a grant. No. You know I No. wouldn't go for three years for a grant and just No. No. get nurses wages at the end of it! That's right yeah. If I was gonna get a job There's no incentive at all is there? I'd go for something for higher wages at the end of it! Mm. Yes. But, you know she goes mad! Yeah. But she had a job as a nursing sister in erm Yale , the private hospital before she done her midwifery but she's Oh yeah! always wanted to do a midi so Yeah. she left that and she's gone to do her midwifery and now when she gets the other day she was looking at old pay slips God, she must have been an idiot to give up a sister's post cos she said her wages have dropped terrible to do this course! That's terrible isn't it? Cos they won't pay you a sister's grade, they'll only pay you an E grade. Yeah, that's right. To do a course. They'll Yeah. only go so high to do a course and she was on an F grade so she had to be taken down. So she could drop. And she said, when she qualifies it will be years before she's gets back to an F grade! It's just ridiculous . And they don't automatically give them a higher grade after a,. So they've gotta go through that waiting period before you Yeah. build up to the Wait for someone to die or retire or something Oh dear! for you to go in She'll have to put a banana skin at the top of the stairs that's their job isn't it? for somebody! It is, it's bad isn't it? Yeah, yeah. And she goes mad! And then If er they train in in Wrexham, in the midwifery she says they haven't trained any for two years and they're not training any next year either! Well I know Bon said er they'd they'd cut down on the recruiting in fact, I think they'd closed one of the hospitals in Bristol in the Frenchay where she is has actually got to take erm qualified nurses from that hospital before they take student nurses that they've trained Yeah. so you know, I mean it's gonna be difficult for a lot of them when they go. But she went to Caborange to do her orthopaedics didn't she? Mm. And she was toying with the idea whether to go and do her midwifery cos that's what she wanted to do Yeah. and then she said, well like, you know, I don't know! Anyway, she went to she took this sister's post in The Yale Mm. to wait for her midwifery to come through and then er they've closed that Does she have to ward. pay for this course by the way? No, she gets paid on any rate. Oh, I see. See, Bon would have pay for Yeah. going on an extra she said after Yeah. she'd finished her training she's had to Yeah. actually pay for the course! They do in erm for the Wendy, our neighbour's daughter's erm Was that erm she's gonna have to pay for ward management course they paid for, some of them No it wasn't cos some girl went on a ward management course I'm not sure now. and they have to pay. But Yvonne was sent to do that on Cabowin she was lucky! She went on a they sent her on a ward management course there. Oh so So she's had that Yeah. she's got her orthopaedics that orthopaedics ward's closed down now! So it's a good job she didn't move on there. That's terrible isn't it? Cos she said luckily I And the , there's a crying need for the for nurses in the hospitals and wards and the , and they sort of they're cutting down you know, on the hospital programme closing wards er, not employing nurses when they need them you know, and they're trying to get And the private hospitals are and she one person to do five people's jobs! came from the hospital to to do her midwifery and there was a boy in Wrexham Hospital he'd give up the permanent job to go to The Yale Mm. and he was saying a month and they'd laid him off and he can't back into Wrexham Hospital! Oh good! But that is awful isn't it? Well you'd think that there'd be plenty of er opportunities in the private sector wouldn't you? Apparently what they're doing in the private sector taking er ooh what do you call them? Yvonne does it Oh, like erm Oh! Like er, I was going to say a stand-by, what Oh Gosh! Yeah, you Yeah. know, like contact so when they need As they like, yeah. Ohhhh! That's right. Well actually you know, Bon said this on the phone the other day Yvonne does that when she can't she said I may have Yeah. to do an agency erm Cos she does that, now she's give up her like a fill-in sister's post but she doesn't want to, cos I said, oh for heaven's sake don't undermine the National Health Service, I said it's undermined enough! Yeah, well From the private sector, but she said What can you do? well er, you know if it comes to it I'll have to. Well Yvonne went into the private to get er a sister's post and sh but she knew she was gonna do her midwifery, so she knew she wasn't gonna stay there but when she went it's become when she does her midwifery for the sister's post, ah but she's got experience hasn't she when she's Yeah. done it? She's got the erm the qualification there. Yeah. Mm. That's right. So er You know, they should get everything given to them shouldn't they, nurses? They work that hard it's they devoted shouldn't have to fight over ruddy rates and Well, you know, I mean she's gone to midwifery now and she's, say she's due home, half nine she'll come home eleven o'clock and I'll say where have you been till now? Mm. Well, well there was a woman half way through delivery so we can't leave! Oh aye! That's right, yeah. Gotta carry on. Bon has often said that we're supposed to finish at You don't get overtime! nine o'clock but I was there till half Yeah. past nine! But they don't get overtime! They're No. not allowed to pay them overtime! No, that's right. You know it's Er, it's And she was saying, cos her friend works in a bank and she's just taken a mortgage on because they get so much knocked off their mortgage don't they, if you work in a Mm mm. bank? Mm mm. So that girl's only paying a hundred pound a month mortgage on it's only a terraced house but Yeah. but Yvonne was saying on my wages I wouldn't get a mortgage! No. No. No. No. The only mortgage I'd get was for twenty odd thousand. double that you see, wouldn't it be the No. interest with the Well she was saying Yeah. they wouldn't give you one on your wages! Yeah. They'd give you one for twenty odd thousand, where you gonna get a house for twenty odd thousand? Exactly! Nothing! So she's just done all that training, she said, you know she's done her Yeah. training, she's done her orthopaedics done her Yeah. midi's and she still can't afford a mortgage on her own! Still can't, yeah. Cos you're at Right, yeah. the bottom of the ladder! You know and And the poor people of of the so so society, it's wrong isn't it? You know, it's wrong really when they've done all that training! Well they sort of How's your son anyway? Oh fine! About time! Not a grandmother yet? Oh yes, oh, she was three haven't I? Oh! And erm the baby she's four months old. Oh lovely!that's my is Are your grandchildren alright? Yes, fine yes Oh alright. they're all at school now. Ahhh! Is your daughter alright? So yes, she's coping quite well she's thinking of erm doing a course as Kelvedel College Oh that's nice! been down there asking about er won't she? you know, different courses Give her a bit of interest other than Well the house and the Yeah. Yeah. kids Yeah, this is it. It means getting away from the children all the time. I mean, she's only young isn't she? You know, get Oh God yes! mixing with you know Yes. With adults! with other people! Yeah. Yeah ! Yeah, it's true though. Ah! Nine o'clock she's Real world. sitting on her own, isn't she talking to the eldest one who is Yeah. only what? Yeah I mean, it's children Nine! or people your age isn't it, you know she's Yeah. with? She wants to get her someone her ow Yeah. I mean she's young Yeah. isn't she? That's right, yeah. Oh gosh, yes, that's right! Yeah, I mean she wants to get out and She wants a rich good looking chap then, she They all Yeah want that, I mean as my mum said, I'm looking for a millionaire They're thin on the ground! but there don't seem to be any around I've had to go out looking for one all these years! I'm looking for a millionaire, she says but I don't see many around I said what about the doctors? Well if you fancy a black one there's plenty but she don't fancy them ! Poor men! Ay! Can marry a a bad white one! Our daughter Yeah. You can did, my God, yes! Yeah. Colour means nothing! No. No, you can ma , you can just what they are isn't it No matter what they are that counts? Yeah. Yes. Anyway, I'd suppose we'd better go. The trouble is all the coloured doctors have got arranged marriages over there they only Ah! want a girl Oh! Ooh yes, oh fill in the time till they go oh that's no good! back! Mm. Oh you mean the er Arranged marriages. Ira Iranians? Yeah. Ooh! And lot's of them of stopped that Mm. I've said last year Ooh that's slavery! and taken in like that, they've even gone and lived with them! Yeah. And then all of a sudden they've disappeared, I mean That's it! Oh ! they're marriages are all arranged cos they got Oh I'm dear not that stupid ! Just think how lucky you are! Why? Well how soft we are th compared with those chaps! Ay? They've got a slave haven't they? Yeah It's you have the opposite here! They'd have you carrying the coconuts on your head Dream on! from the palm trees! No! At water! Yeah, they ! Oh dear! Go down here Oh dear! Well, good luck with the driving! Oh I Keep at it! Let us know when you're coming out a we , and we'll stay in So you can all stay in! especially on the roundabouts! Three o'clock in the morning you'll be alright! Three am. That's right ! That's what I said to him, I said if you sent me to a No, you keep at it! driving lesson in the middle of the night I'd be alright!better. Once you once you get into it it's it's the same for everyone isn't it? It's confidence isn't it? It's developing And, of course confidence. the later you leave it Mind you, I've always been amazed You know that at people being able to get into a car and never driven before and be allowed out onto a highway! Yes! Yeah, it's I mean very traumatic! you know I would of thought the, the first thing would be To be honest Margaret I was never, never was in a car to learn the mechanics of the car. I mean, I was quite happy sitting there being driven around I was other people! That's right, yes, it's nice isn't it? But er Till the chauffeur er isn't there, you know! You can't, it must be since Paul did and the man turned up and to Yvonne, I'm not going you'll go to the industrial estate mum, she said don't worry she said he'll drive Yeah. you there and she said, you'll be alright. to the pub, do you know The Prince? Yeah, yeah. Drove me to there and he said, here are get in! I went this isn't the industrial estate! Ha ha, this is the road! Said, get in! And I had to drive to Mould oh! Nerves all the way! and I It is , it is er Yeah. The trouble is the industrial estate is full of learner drivers just like yourself! Yeah. Yeah. More So traffic there. Yvonne said Yeah ! to me that's where they took her the first time, they didn't take her right on the the roads, you know, the first time she'd Yes. ever been in a car! Yeah. But the kids have got more confidence haven't they? They have they They must have when you're twenty something, you know, they've got less fear. I think they're Yeah, yeah. they're not afraid of anything are they? Well I mean, when our Bon was learning I went with her a few times she frightened the life out of me! But yeah I know Well I mean I I think er They've got the nerve haven't they? I mean Yeah. you know Well , they haven't got the experience to realise what would happen if er What being too you know? That's right yeah. Yeah. When I learned it was horse and carts on the roads! Do you What That is he like? buy a That's a joke! Yeah. Would you like buy a flag for the ? Another one? Here, look here I've got a badge i oh! already! You've been to me once! They're flags yo Where's the flag? I don't mind Here are! supporting the Boy's Brigade once, but I thought he was gonna come dressed as a boy scout this time! Here are! Thanks a lot! Okay, well we'll have Anyway to get going anyway Dot. All the best! Take care. See you soon. Okay, Bye bye love. Keep up with your lessons. Bye! Bye now! Where you going now? I was gonna get eggs, that's what I was gonna head in here for. Oh get them in Buckley now, come on! Yes. I've got to get milk anyway so What, what sort of music would you like me play? Any. Any. Any? Yes. What does that mean? Any! I want you Any kind. Any music! Well don't you like pop music or what's your favourite? Ooh Jason Donovan! Oh no! What's the I don't mind. Well go on, you've gotta say something! Kylie Minogue. Kylie Minogue. Kylie Minogue? I don't know her, I don't that! I know Whitney Houston. Yeah Is she good is she? Michael Jackson. Oh I know him! Yes, one that's got the er Yeah have him. White face. No, he's got a black face! I know, but he's had all this treatment hasn't he, to make his face white. Yeah, put Michael Jackson on. Alright. Michael Jackson. Well, first, tell me what you've done today? Ay? Er not not much Don't wanna tell me? but playing. Me and Scott were just playing and I went at home. I went Have you have you seen Cop? Na not not for my birthday. What you just a minute, is that is tomorrow afternoon your the birthday i the party or someone elses? He's going to somebody's party tomorrow. Who's party is it tomorrow? Ross's. Ross er, Ross. Ross's! Oh Ross! I see, yeah. Yeah, but I I'll have a Granddad! Are you going Yeah. to the party? No. We're not going. What's No. that? He's a Beetlejuice! Beetlejuice! Beetlejuice? Oh I see, yes, yes! It's okay he's a I know all about that yes! Oh, they made a film didn't they? Yeah. No it's no we di didn't! Yeah, you've had Did you erm Beetlejuicee! No. Emily! What? Have you had anyone round? It was Yeah, no I went round to somebody's house. Who? Kelly's. Kelly! Oh i are you better now by the way? What was wrong with you? I've had terrible Laura had one. I'll tell you what happened! A bug oh, I know all about Laura, what did you have Laura? I had Conjuctiv itus. Had that She did have that allergy in her eyes. And allergy in your eyes! Oh well! I'll go and get the ted down now. I went round to Kelly's house and I played a computer there and they could bring Oh no! They More computers! You can get till Can you? We were taking Yeah. round to, I took round some of my games to play. Emily's gonna make a new game aren't you? Is she? That game played when you was here. After. I know you're doing ! What? You're taping our ! I've got a . Ahhhh! Now you don't know what to say! I tell you what I'll ask you a few questions. Scott Where were Yeah? you born? What town were you born in? Mm Shotten Shotten very good! Do you know what county it's in? Think, I don't know What county it's in. Clu Clwyd? Laura where were you born? Er Shotten Very good! In Clwyd right. And how old are you? Seven. That's very good! And I've been living for seven years! Living for seven years ! We know that! Right Emily! What? I know you were born in Shotten What age are you my love? I'm was born in Chester! Oh! Caught me out! Okay you've won And I am almost nine. Almost nine years. And what scho , school do you go to? Mm. Hellyessen Hellyessen And who is your teacher? Miss . Miss . Laura who is your teacher? Miss Miss . Ooh, it's Mrs and Mr Ooh Mrs . . Oh two, I see! Now, Scott who is your teacher? Umm Mrs Umm? and er Mrs . Oh! Who's your favourite out of the two? Who d'you like best of all? Erm Miss . I like Mrs cos she's she's a bit more nicer than Mrs . Is she? Mm. What is your favourite subject ? What do you like doing best of all. He says Mrs 's got a big wart there! Ooh! Do I have to do it to the end? It's going. It's, it Or rather Erm Then we can . The . You ask him a question. I'll ask him a question! Go on then. Clock's stopped. Erm No, you don't need the ! Oh! Oh oh! How old are you? Oh well, erm well erm bu ba ba ba actually I'm fifty seven I shall be fifty Er eight next birthday. But I don't look it! Yuk! Right, you're one then. Erm Where do you live? Where d'you live! Buckley which is in Clwyd. But I'm Oh! from Liverpool long time ago. Where were you born? In Liverpool . Don't put that in your mouth! Oh! Have you had a ? Your turn. Right then I wanna know I will!what, what's the date of your birthday? The date I was born, er erm the thirtieth of July nineteen thirty four. We've got to gather round you now. ! Don't lose that now! Look wait and let me unless it's there to lose yeah, I mean What d'you do at work? before you get me any more Well I don't work now cos I'm retired but So er I go to college three days a week and I do furniture restoration which is upholstery one day polishing And what erm repairs, things like that you know. Do you do erm any housework at home? I'll say! My mummy makes me do lots of housework! What's your favourite drink? What? Drink? What's Erm whisky. What's your favourite Erm What's your favourite But I don't drink much. What's your favourite food? What's your favourite film? My favourite food is oh I don't, er pasta, Italian food. And what's your favourite film? Er, yeah. Oh erm erm oh I don't know! Erm I'll say, Richard the third with Laurence Olivier. Erm I love that Er film! What's your favourite dri oh, I ! Ha what My favourite film is Beetlejuice ! We know that ! I What's your favourite music? Well, I like Italian opera so I like maybe operas by Verdi, people like that you know. It's my go again! And You've had a lot of turns! What's your favourite clothes? Wha wha , what did you get at Christmas? Ooh I don't er socks and erm after shave and You got off us. what else did I get? Wha what I've forgotten already! You know And stuff like that. What's your favourite clothes? What did Aunty Bonny ? I've got clothes, they're old ones! I like casual What clothes. what did erm Aunty Bonny get for Christmas? Aunty Bonny got sweater erm I don't know, I forget, clothes and Can we watch ? And a book. She got a poetry book. Well that filled one out ! Oh! Yeah, and that's the end. Thank you very much! Thank you very Thanks! much. Goodbye. Bye! Bye! Gotta say who you're speaking to love . Erm Have you used Mummy that lately? Say Mummy. Who's . I'm going to interview you now. How old are you? Oh my goodness! Oh no, you're not supposed say, ask questions ! I am! Twenty one and a bit! Okay. Bi Where's the gone? Erm Let me ask her something. ay? Erm a what Don't get too close to the microphone! what You'll blast them out! what you erm usually wear? Jumpers. Erm jumpers and trousers What do you That what kind of jumper do usually wear? Er What kind of this, this jumper that I've got on now, green one. Don't hold it in front of your mouth! And what kind of trousers do Don't hold it in front of your mouth! Somebody have to get . What kind of erm trousers do do usually wear? I'll get it! Which . Er . Switch it off now. Oh she's already go Er Oh! What's your name? Have you finished ? Only if it's in there. Carrie. Oh you're Carrie! I've heard all about Carrie! Have you? Where do you live in, in Shotten Yes. I can't turn them, mind you can't dilly dally I've seen you before have I? dally dally dally! How old are you then? Ten. So I as Emily! Yeah. Tall and thin. I'm looking down the garden that's lovely! Great big lawn! Hello my little beauty! What's the matter? Come on! Pa pa pa pu ! Come on pet! Doesn't want to know you! Do you pet? I'm surprised he came to us! When you get out the door he's sort of going the other way! Yes I thought er you know Paul said he runs off doesn't he? But he'd come back, er, now we know he comes back once he's had enough. Does he? Mm. Oh! He, oh I see, been had About quarter of an hour he said. Ah! Well I suppose with him going out for walks from here he knows that Mm. you know, knows the area. And get frightened perhaps? Yeah, it's just this isn't it? That's the worry, I've this like There's been a few like him, a few erm Cavaliers. You want to er What round here? Well there's one down er,Waka drive, and erm, and once we were driving up and I thought ooh it's another and a King Charles. Seemed to be different colour, more white than You want ask Bob for that er when you see him, because before somebody else gets it. Mm. Cos he doesn't use it now himself I don't think. Cos he, you know, he hasn't got the garden all that I thought he might sell it? Was he not Er er er oh! I mean, we've been lucky because we've He's not bothered! er, that farm down the road from us er, she came round we bought the Mr . that sideboard off her and we were saying about the manure you know, I said, she said ooh come and She's lost her dog by the way. help yourselves anytime you like! So we've been down there a few times but I said to you didn't I? Very pretty! I mean you see it advertised in the paper but no one Oh aye! will buy it! Mm. Fifty pence, sixty pence Horse manure, I mean it's, and it's really well rotted stuff, it's good you know! But she's got this lovely little dog got two dogs, but this Yeah. er She's got the only a year old disappeared! Ah! Just over a week ago! She's advertised in all the local papers and Mm. been round the farms and it was in as well. It were them puppies puppies. Ah! Lovely little thing too wasn't it? What was it? Lucy. Er, well I think it was some sort of a I think it was a mongrel she got it from the animal rescue more sheepdog wasn't it but they had by the look of it? The one that the one that nobody What you mean somebody would take it Well to sell the pups like! Well, No, but it makes you wonder doesn't it? If Pedi breeding. cos if they're gonna have a cross you wouldn't think would you? I wouldn't Yeah. of thought so. Said that the erm There's a lovely name for it! They'd been feeding it down at the where they give the horses Stables the stables show them the stables. But, I mean, she's been down there and must be gone now something has, but I said surely she would have heard from the police if it'd been Mm. run over. Yeah. She'd rang the police and they hadn't heard of any. Mind you, I mean they had the dog they had before , got run over. He'd never been out on the roads and got killed. but they had one about twelve months ago also from the animal rescue, it was a lovely little dog! And we saw it a few times didn't we? It's very friendly And it followed us into the lane several times and then we'd chase it back Ooh it was always on the road! and the inevitable happened it it got hit and the next time we saw it it was it was galloping across the field with it's one of his front paws Broken leg! in plaster! And it bloody saunting you know with a little down in front Ah ah ha ha! with this plaster on and er The next thing it was killed on the main the road! he was about he'd got out again Yeah! Ah! she wouldn't chain it up, and it got hit and killed on the erm road just outside the Post Office wasn't it? But she said that Lucy hadn't gone out. No, you didn't you didn't suggest they When, when she fo tried to wander when she was a pup or younger she used to come with us down you know to the, near enough to the ma Mm yeah, the gate. red line. Mm. But then er in recent times she stay in the farm so Mm. Lord knows! I mean, they steal dogs now don't they, these people? Mhm mm. Don't know do you. Steal you? You'd go like a shot mate! Mhm mm! Oh I've been called! Well once you start What are they doing Well you, weren't having any of that because er, he's on nights tonight isn't he? Ah ho! So he won't have it. Said, oh you weren't in last year when I came were you? What, they come on a regular Yeah it's we pay a service Six months isn't it? charge you see. No yearly. Six months? Yearly. Yeah. I thought it was ? Yearly. Why weren't you in then? And erm he said your neighbour let me in, and I said, oh yeah Oh yes. he so , seemed to remember. What the ? Can you see that little bit the , no can you see how that top of that and Yeah I know I told them about that! Oh! I know, I tried to Have you got close it with the tweezers but it, it was too stiff. Haven't you got anything I haven't got any pliers, no. Oh! We haven't got any pliers in the boot? I said that No. to you tomorrow. You said it's a growing up! I mean I suppose they've got , I've tried biting it as well, but it's Well you narf Did you? hard! Don't mess with it Mm. you'll ruin it! He has bent that up bananas . that's why she can't get the screw right down so and I doubt whether the woman in the shop will be able to do it, needs a bloke. Well, did I not tell you Need to push it in. we had Ron in? No. Ooh he looked really dislocated in it! When he was young Oh! Yeah. When he wasn't young. Well it was quite a while ago, erm Christopher Plumber was in it and he looked really young in it, so Oh it's erm he the Australian attache. He's the Australian attache or something isn't he? He's at Australia Attache. House and he arrest him. Yeah. Ooh, he still looked nice even though he'd he had a birth mark round his nose like, you know. Ha! We Still as attractive! Well . Do you want me to hold it while you shoot back in cos we can't . No! Emily and I will It's er, they ought to have, they'll ha , have to it wants now I've taken the screw out of the sinks that has gotta be put back. Changed back. Yeah. Because it's I wonder how he's done it is it It's forcing the screw at an angle which is why it won't come through. When he put one on he sort of and pulls them down, erm to his ears so that His ears go down his head then? It's twisted it's Mm. must do it. Mm. As long as they don't charge anything I don't mind. They don't charge anything for this, no. No. Well, I'm saying that I wo , I don't suppose with a woman he'd Charge fifty P. You know if a lens comes off like, one of the mums has said, oh they don't charge anything to put it back in, but I might see if I can erm charge them. Well the thing is the erm the metal frames, the lenses come out eas , a lot easier, you know than a plastic. But I've Mm. this is all one thing is it? Yeah, it's it's Yeah. well the plastics a lot thicker aren't they? Stronger seals Something to grip. metal is er I Oh have a with mine I see what you mean about this wasn't I? Mine used to just shoot out! Well, he's only done it once and that was when it was in a coat pocket and he pulled it out and it sort of must Mm. hooked around the perhaps it's not gonna making things like, they haven't well it's the only and that was a while ago, so what you have to do mum is I'll tell you what I did last night I normally have to hold the arms while I use tweezers to put it back and then I had to To put it in. hold it with the tweezers while I screwed it back in. Mm Maybe I should have mentioned that before Well don't watch me doing and then you won't Oh! frustrated ! I'll do this er, next year anyway. When I met you We wat , did you see that film up, that was on a few nights ago, some time last week I think? At night? With er, Dennis Weaver blocking it. Yes, I do remember now, I didn't erm I saw the previews and I thought it was OTT like! It was quite good actually! Was it? Yeah. When he's in the phone box sliding down help me! Help me! Yeah, well that was, yeah but if you'd seen the film you would of That was . you would of appreciated it. But no It wasn't OTT really. It wasn't? Well I didn't think so, but there you are! Well we've done that other one. Yeah, but me. Time. At home you mean? No! Dane. It's the tape. It's Terminator two. Are we allowed to watch the film? Terminator? Ooh my God! Is it ? And most of the Terminator A game? films are Can you see Paul's? Yeah. On his video. Put it in No and soon And you have to turn the to play it! You have to turn this Have you ha are you able to do your Scott can you work it? Scott You have to play it. this afternoon. Where's my glasses anyway? I'm trying to fix this stuff. Oh nanny's fixing them,. I'm trying to put the screw back in. Oh yes. You might have to take care of these things or just . We haven't yet,. Where did you get the Terminator from Em? Erm, Kelly's. Borrowed it off someone. Oh I see, Kelly! Lend it to . Hey there's an ! We haven't had the computer on for ages have we? No. And it's been er lovely! Except my games are Peaceful! my games are just Oh it's peaceful anyway cos you can't have the sound up ! My games are . So dad had a go on it did he? Yeah, dad had a go on it, it was funny it was! He nearly Do you know how to do it Laura? D'you know Was he any good Em? work it? Well Oh! he he went What is your favourite one of all these? he was twenty Er. and erm he hit the Did you take your games did you? He hit the target. Oh he's oh Did he? course! You must play it! Your turn to get out. All these blooming experts! Oh! Daddy's got to Oh got him! have a try. Want me to do it? Don't know. Erm Is this the one? Well trying it this way I'll find now now. Yeah, I know but it's there. Yeah, it's just keeps dropping out when you try and turn it! Mum, can I have i after one go and then you can go? You hold it up No! cos it's so, so tiny Ah let him have a go! isn't it? Well I want to put I know! him up the tree! That's why I was messing about with the . It's only a computer anyway! Taking it out. Taking it out. Mm. I sa . Mummy, can I have a go first? I wanna go first! Ah don't be so I'm going first! tight! Poor old Scott hasn't had a go yet! Do you need the joystick? Yeah. Now switch the computer on. Why's this coming down? Can you use them? No, without the joystick in I mean? Right Thank you. Can I go No let Emily do it first cos she knows and you also haven't Yes but I'll find out! You haven't got your glasses on love, you won't be able to see the words. What have you gotta Right do, write te your name? Yes, Then is it me? Let Em suss it out first. What game's this one Em? Terminator two. That's . What is it? Terminator two. Terminator two. Terminator number two. You know the bottoms that I got with some this story I'm going to make it turn. Oh! to the Rumpole. Rumpole. But not that I like Any good? I don't like Rumpole of the Bailey! No I don't. Only read a bit of it! Born in Australia was he? Why should they be this fierce? Let me have a little please? Possibly cos too many of us or that we ah yes! There isn't any more, but where's your ? You learn to live to Now Or perhaps I'll Will you come and sort them out before children ! Things don't really matter! Most women who are attracted to men will verify this there are many others the thought of often make up their mind and some would cringe! It's true isn't it? Mm. Oh what is this? It's a game. Cautious cameramen, there's a sea of faces watching you. So what are gonna have? Yeah. And all your thoughts they're gone! Sorry? And your voice alters I never! and it sounds like If you can get a a ha voice out at all! I mean you hear ay? it is a stage fright isn't it? Must be! Oh ! But erm Can't decide Nanny! but obviously people learn how to cope with that don't they. Do you want to clip that thing on your er Yeah. What clothes? do you want darling? In fact, you've already got got a new book from er what's that, Pickwick? I want half again. I got you two easy ones from library didn't I? Oh well she's I want one of theirs? Well they erm Ooh! Let's have a look. Is that a school book isn't it? That's Emily's Grayon Crest Yeah. That is a Pick that up! this is a school one, yeah, they have to write them in this little Mum Erm what's saying comments on how he's reading. I know. Teacher comments isn't it? How much are they supposed to do at home? Very appalling! How much? Well they're only supposed to read one erm they get one on a Monday they take this back on Monday, they have to read it for teacher then they get another one Monday night He's supposed to be Mm. in goal! and they get that one back in Thursday and they read it to teacher, so it's two a week and up till Mm. if we forget them and then Mm. they get a library book as well once a week. Oh I know this one, you have So do you have You only hit the dalek! dalek, yeah. this one that's granny is the dalek! Mm, that was a bit harder than oh this dead funny Doctor Zagel's book of Erpounds A poundless Oh it doesn't say on this oh Meg's Car, that was easy! He can read that one. Is that a school one as well? No, this a library Oh I see. Keeps them separately. Watch out for the wires! Oh, it's different! Can I play with my ? Yeah you can. But you've gotta have it on for half an hour haven't we Scott? You've got quarter of an hour left. And then you put your your score there. Oh I see mm! And your telephone then and then you go to this is gotta to go for the page This is got to confirm that they've , they've actually done the reading at home, yeah? Oh right, what you what you write in the , yeah. Mm. I thought I had other books? Mm put everything up if some things get lost. Everything's all lab Wonderful filing system you've got here! or labour! All erm library books and school books have to go on top here if there's no space to put them. Mm. And er What's happened about that book you lost, did it ever turn up? Yes it was sandwiched in the back of one of these. Oh good heavens! Cos you searched Laura found it high and low didn't you? One we have them on a teacher that's the Oh I see! and then she Yeah. comments. Her comments there. Ye so presumably she tests them again after they've Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Well that's why I did the other week, when I went into school I was children Can you help me find Maid Marian book? Maid Marian. Er, here's the that's got sixth of the third those are sixth of the third is that yours Scott? Scott's Well he can read that one if he wants. No! Gonna read that one. No! Yeah, let me see, it's Maid Marion. Is that one of your favourites is it? Can I take that plaster off that one? Yeah. Can you look in the Mm. cloth? No! You can't take your plaster off! Didn't you hear what I said ? Can I just look at that? Another fifteen minutes and then you can take it off. I wanna see it. Anyway it's certainly helping with what your mummy said. Come on and boy, get stuck in! There is a oh I I take it he's gotta go for another assessment then has he for Yeah, they go every he's gotta go in So in June. When did he A go for the last, before Christmas that was six months. How long has he had er Mum, I can't see! that the plaster now? Now? Till ten past four. Mum, I can't see! Well stop doing that Scott! No, I mean, you know, from when you first when they, they told you he had Oh how long has he's been wearing for? Mm. It was at er February was it? Or the end of Ja , then end of January, it's only about Can I watch, to wear, it's six Yeah. months nearly. And what do they do, give him another eye test Yeah. ? That's what , yeah. She jus she does this and Mm. Well I don't have Right, show how to go this . You have to get past the box. Mm. Ah, which nearly And er, but shines the light in his eyes and he has to look up You have to stop my chair! That's okay! Paper! I'll try it again . You don't have to over the rocks! Why the cliffs I want It's This looks like the same tape as Uncle Pauls erm is it? go like this. Yes, it is, I remember this. I'll never get onto level two. It's awfully quiet this! Did they turn the volume off? Mm, yes. Oh the reading you mean? Have you got any peoples? Yeah. Yeah. But my face is What? ! It's okay. No, go wash your face! And granddad's reading. No I wanted you to get Go on . something like drawing! No! No! Cos I want to draw a picture. Right put it down! Come on you've only got ten minutes to go! Right! He is Australian isn't he? Oh, it's stuck to my knee! Mm. That one. Erm the old man Yeah. died as, whatever and they went to his eldest brother he said he had to burn all because he only lived in a small flat, he and his wife and two children and they'd got no room for them to so he had to burn them. Good God! Turn it on that . I've gotta . Emily! Game of the hard and friendly! If you're not gonna sit straight then hold on to the computer! Yes, you can't imagine it really! Ca how old is he? Can I do it mummy? About seventy now I should think. Mm. He came here in forty six. Mm, as did many others I suppose. After the war. Weee! Clang! Ha! Weee! To his dad, they went back to Berlin in nineteen seventy for a visit cos his mum was in a home which Oh I know when to stop,I've got er fortunately they'd been able to pay for by the . Aha! And some wore black pants to bed cos they didn't recognise them! Ah! And she died just afterwards. Well he hadn't seen her for many years? In a home, but senile Ah. Stop! Yeah. But mummy can I take this Mm. off? Nearly, nearly, nearly! Couple more minutes. But he wants to do it doesn't he? That's right, yeah. Once this finished. I suppose really he's he's had success late in his life hasn't he? Oh yeah! Yeah. You know, I don't remember him years ago. No, I Not a on anything. Couple of small and film of it er I er, I suppose he's been more of a stage He's never been top. actor really in er Yeah , I think he did er, Rumpole was put him in the big time really. The big league. Good actor though. Yes he is good actor. oh no, not the ! So do er does he say he does a lot of public speaking now or, or not? No. He's just Fakes it! Oh I see. no, you know, he's not er trying desperately to be humorous I think Mm. Mm. totally fakes it and that! Yeah. Well it's one thing to t to talk amongst your friends I suppose, and another one to be you know spontaneous when you're in front of a huge crowd of people. And especially as you say to be humorous. Some people are naturally like that though aren't they? Outgoing and er Mm. good recollections of erm and even events that aren't necessarily really funny but can be funny you know, on the way tha , in the way that they're being told. As they say, you had to be there. Very good! But when's the ? Well I told you, the his arms had gone like that. Ooh! If I pull my jumper off like that be like that dresses. Right! What does she say? Go Good. Good. Remember what she says. Go Heavily good . Really? Move them animals, yeah. Short cuts on the Super scrolls and he told us where you get them. Through hours of playing it himself! Trial and error! But , oh I told you that erm and I'm putting them faster tried his injection . Well is it broken? And I'm the one with . No he's arthritis hasn't he? Oh that's right, yes. Mm. He don't have to run. So wha to the bottom of the so wha are they giving him steroids or something like Mm. that? Cortisone injections to se Cortisone , Mm. to see what there is I mean, she'll be first! Did you only play one game? So is he improved or Last out that's what I say mum, it's Oh! get them ! Oh! There's not many people at the school, and I go to school and they get a load of many off people like, for the catalogue and the Mm. and what have you, and people are giving me money left, right and centre and kids are coming out, telling me, saying don't forget! Mm. half the time! If there's money to make, Reg! Well, I mean indirectly I suppose. Actually, I got sixteen pound commission so far, and I got some more people Oh that's quite good! so I might have the three pound first week had erm This week? Yeah. Three pounds I get for running it. Mummy! A small pound though. I thought you meant you got it at Christmas time an Oh no, you get a free one for introducing people, so this Oh! this is quite good! You know,and er, there was sachet called Me and the teatime and Oh! soap. Oh, I like them in the . Now the plaster! She's anxious to show me this pasty that she's made. , are they all cooking fun? Thank you Laura. Emily's on about doing er hostess badge which they have to make cake Mm. and brownies and er Mhm. cakes at home erm what else have you gotta do? Oh they gotta do a table flower arrangements. Are all the children sort of, working at the same level together or First one is,if they want ! Oh I see. I think they're gonna do the ramblers one together cos then they'll go for a walk together . Cos they we the woods I suppose? Yeah. Mm. Mummy? What love? Can you get the ? which one has a I I Yes. said that was it didn't I ? That Yeah, and now! Otherwise we'll blow Your getting hooked! the telly up! Getting hooked on that Scott! Which are the books ,said? Yeah. Or Sammy the Dinosaur? What's that? Mummy! Mummy! Can, can Sammy the Dinosaur? can you get can you read Which, what's it called? I dunno! Mummy! Can you read I dunno, oh well that's a good title! Mummy, can you read a nana that pound thing? Oh you can show nana the one. Mm. Why? Nana can read it can't she? See That At the back of the A Oh yes! Do I need my glasses on for this book? Mummy Yep! Can you read this Mm. read me this book? I'll show you the pictures in it. out! Feed time about Right , go on. quarter to five, something like that. It is funny! Is it? Mm. Well we lasso granddad around the legs ! I take it you've read this before then have you? No, my mummy read it to me. Are we going out or something? Right, I'm ready. Good, can you can you read this at the bottom? I said that was can, yeah. No, I can't read any at the bottom. Do you wanna take your tape You must know some of these words? Mm. I don't know some of the word. What's that word there then? Ah! Wa No. Wa Cos I'm sick of this business! We We We It's good isn't it? It's so true of some of the no , some of the things they do! Going in the the new horn it says. To find out which is which, hold a sausage at both ends! Yeah ! That looks like our Muffin doesn't it? Mm. Wally's had his haircut! He's like that bu ,po Wally's had his haircut now so you can see which Does he end is which. You didn't laugh at him did you? I know, he's quite sensitive ! I know. When he's had a haircut. Ah! Ha! Ha! What on earth got on his foot? Oh no, it's a slipper with two holes,a thin and long pink flannel ! That's his tongue isn't it? See what they do with a long pink flannel? Mm. Oh dear! They don , they don't know! Yes. They don't understand!on the dog. Dogs which I can see and the icicles of of Ercalyps we are not looking . Ercalyps Ercalyps Ercans can stand on four legs or three legs, or two legs No, not in the garden Emily! they can jump as high as roast pig ! Why won't ? Kelly. Have you ever had any of Doctor Zeuss books? Yeah. Ah Jim oh they're Yeah. lov hilarious! There's not so, so many about, I used to love those! Oh, I thought they were great them! Even when I was older! Yeah. I used to get Doctor Zeuss Hey Kelly ! Can I just go down the shops, Kelly and me are just going get something ? Mm. Okay yes. Could of got the caravan. Ena , they're good pictures aren't they? Look at the cat singing Oh! with the soldier! Go and get some Yeah, and look at that snow for Jackie. Yeah. Jackie who? Oh Jackie! You know Jackie, yeah, she wasn't gonna write again was she? Oh she At last, I I got a letter! Ah! How's she getting on? She's not living in Plymouth as, she was gonna be but at the last minute they found a flat for her and Mm. in Hamilford where her mum and dad are so she's Oh s in this er first floor flat which she says is quite nice. Oh good! It's all decorated! So is she sort of settling down there now is she? Yes, so she says think that it now. we should go No. move down there. That's silly isn't it? Mum! Look at that! Oh sh , oh you've had an invite have you? Well no, to live! She said the people To live? in come and live down here Oh! Look at that! she'd gone back there Look at that! to be near her parents and she's Yeah. gonna meet them here. Yes, you'd be moving away from yours then wouldn't you? Look at that! But we would miss you, you know! Look at that, he has to catch Let's find it though,has to fetch it. Do you want me to post the Mm. Have you seen this book granddad? Look at that! No. It's quite funny! Funny pictures! Can I watch a tape! Mm. Sorry? Wanna watch What kind? a tape? I dunno! Haven't got a clue! What he's got? You look in that. Ooh! Probably don't wanna, He's back isn't he? In the past! Yeah. There is not a . Jason and Argonauts It's a it's erm Oh no! Oh no, new cow pats! Oh dear oh dear! He watch that Good God! one it's a That's, that's true that, that's what they do, they like rolling in all the mess in the Moo Holes fields. it says there ! Superman. Ah no! Mel Gibson in the And getting in the bag as well! Mutiny on the t Bounty. No, I'm not desperate to watch the tapes, really Carrie. Look,! I want to ! You want to? Take one of those. Yeah! Yeah, oh well put one on One of those. for I wanna watch at Fantasia. Look, look! watching these, I'm not taking that one ! Have you seen that? Have you watched that Fantasia? Yeah. Mm. Are you gonna do it? Some bits are Look good but and when he's got quite clean! It's He's goes and does it again! I know, that's absolutely true that! Urgh yucky! That's just what doggies do! This one again! Look! Little baby one! each other. Oh ! Gee! God alive! No, I'm going to take care of this thing. It's all the bloody stories as It'll be alright on the night! And they get out! Mm. That is the end of today's lesson. Nearly eleven. As it happens Look, they've all gone which I'm You are all good and kind and when you visit Ooh, I tell you what I've missed erm Planet Earth to play with a real Hanglet Erm ninety P I watch no, not the magic That's a Yeah I funny one isn't it? watched it! Barber of Seville. They're all getting their . So you see I watched that. Oh good! I've taped over it now. Sorry! Tito Gobbin Tito Gobbin is on tomorrow afternoon. I don't know, the Look! feller who was Figaro was Ooh that looks like an elephant Tito Gobbin doesn't it? But I tried Yeah look at over the rigs cheap yeah. Yes. Oh! But it, it would make you feel , I should think that you, yeah, the lips were Those of you who want to bring your pets along, please sit in the back of the space ship He was good and then er And that's his cat is it? Yeah, he's got a lovely voice,Tito Gobbin Yeah, mm. Gracious me! And that er I was the one Well the feller feller Looks like a pterodactyl that doesn't it? Yeah, it's got a tail. And there's the there look Yeah, well I've got A tenor. wasn't it? Yeah and it Yeah. except it's got a tail. on the terms. pterodactyl with a tail! What was the girl? What's her name? They might of had tails you don't know! He's got a very high high notes Don er Alvio is it? Sorry? What was that? What was Alvio The one she's in love with. Don Alvar A Alvario Yeah. Yeah. But we'll leave that one Rosita. out. Mm. Is that a Yeah. school book or Doctor a library book? A library book. A library book, oh. Yeah, the feller with hat. Giovanno. The Bar sol But this is belong to school. Mm, yes. You be careful with it! It is funny! Ooh, you know one. Yes, it's a very funny one that yeah! There's many years, I saw that film about nineteen fifty two We, we used to have one at our school. or something like that! Erm Yeah, I know. about humans. Tito Gobbin And Of course But the bit when he's finished that Vargo we were singing that in the bathroom the other day Vargo passotho yes da da da da da Mmmm. da da . Can I do this to you? And he's singing it and he's going like this No you don't have to keep moving it about. dee dee dee dee dee . Figaro come here Figaro, no there. Mm. Figaro here, Figaro up, Figaro down joo soo But they didn't with the What's your favourite video game? the barbers weren't just barbers then were they? They used to do er I don't like video games Scott! I hate them! I believe you when I Erm er what's erm he doesn't just What's cut hair does he, and shave people he there's a Oh it is don't they? And they're like doctors Well they're, yeah. They're like surgeons. Well he's the barber Yeah. was a surgeon in those days. What's your favourite cartoon? I'm just gonna go down and get some eggs cos I forgotten them. I don't like cartoons. And granddad Erm doesn't like computers and he doesn't like I used to like Tom and Jerry. And what's your favourite will you have an egg? old film? Oh er favourite film, what's my favourite film then? What's your fa , oh! Oh I know, Twelve Angry Men. Yeah he he Oh! that's a good one! That's a smasher that is! With Henry Fonda. Mm, er What's your favourite What's your favourite film? one out of Hans Christian And Anderson. Oh erm The king is in the altogether, and altogether and a , that's all I know the words. Nana's better at the words than I am I forget them! mm. Favourite song in it. Favourite song. Mm. Oh, that's granddad, you know that one don't you? Or a Mm. Copenhagen is it? Wonderful wonderful Copenhagen or . What d'you like doing in the middle of the day? Oh, heavens! I think he's asleep now! Well I like reading. We've got that on tape when you said oh heavens! Oh erm and quite often I'm doing my furniture work which I like doing, making furniture or repairing furniture. I like that! What d'you do in the middle of the day? Just had that! You've just asked me that, and I've told you! Middle of the day! Well what d'you do in the morning then? Sometimes I do some gardening, I take the dogs for walk which I like doing and then help nana all the time cos she's she has never got much energy in the morning as you know! Mm. Not very communicative in the morning really. She doesn't like ta , I like to listen Well I don't fall asleep Scott! at eight o'clock at night for two hours and then go No! to bed to and sleep the rest of the night! Three o'clock. The afternoon er I like to get up in the morning I like to talk and sing be happy! Ee And sometimes listen to the birds you know, the birds start early don't they? Especially in Spring. Well it doesn't belong to us. but lately we can't You now. What is your See them? favourite video game? He would cackle like mad that I eat roll I mean I'm not My favourite ? My favourite video game is Quest. And what Quest? what d'you Yeah. usually do in the middle of the day? I dunno! Well just lie down and have a little snore ! Listen, you could have gone up to Wedford Park today you know, they had erm they had all the children up there and they were doing an a barbecue in the woods. What? Well it's not a very nice day for it is it? But er Pool? It was in the paper yesterday, it said Usually go up there all the children are invited you had to take your own food there Why? of course. Well you supposed to take your own food. Be nice to go up there in the summer time won't it? ! Yeah, they used to have festivals. Mm. You say yes. What? Go on. What d'you want me to say Scott? Go on! Balmoral you can't say! Oh look you've shut your ! Yeah! Oh you're ever so noisy Scott! He was telling you to You're ever so noisy! He was telling me to say bum! Ah! ha ha! Yes. If we could get Laura saying nasty words to me on this tape! Go on, say a nasty word to me! I don't think it's meant You're fa for that Scott! I'm sure it isn't! Sometimes when Stop it Scott! Ay! Laura, I was gonna ask you, what about m It's Emily's Oh! Well Emily's ah! Gone in the pub, could've have asked him. When did you go the shop? Haven't seen him coming out of the car. What's happened to the rabbit tent? Have you been down You know the to the shop? the schools. The one you minded during the summer hols. at last! Yeah that rabbit Oh! from Emily's school! We know it Have you recovered from your Probably made rabbit pie or something did you? Oh yes, yeah. Hey, you know what we were we were doing wrong? What? Was Yes, yes, yeah, yes, yes. Not feeding it! Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, you're not supposed to give them loads of veg! Just supposed to have That's why it had the runs! on the tape. I hear you do it to me! Being silly! He told me to say end. He told me Coerce means the same . He told me to say bum! That's ladies gonna give me the cane when she hears that! She'll say Calm down! come here big man what did you say on the Hey, Scott have you negotiated a percentage? Why? Argh! It's alright, listen. For your appearance on there. Yes. What did he say? Something like, he's got the Ghostbuster bag? And when the girl was er Take your thumbs off the telly! had this lady coming round to see the , do you think somebody will buy my Ghostbuster bag? Cos I'd cleaned it up the other day cos it had mildew on the bottom of it! Oh ! Could you move your So I goes what? I said, you think The lady only wants conversation. I said you go to somebody's house Who is it ? you know, we'd told Yeah ! Please buy it somebody! Pinning, pinning his hopes on a sale! Oh sorry Carrie, I hope we're not putting you to too much trouble are we here? I mean No, no! Bit of a damned cheek isn't it, ay? You know nice What? quiet house! It wasn't pre-arranged was it? Mummy there's a cat coming in our house! Oh don't bring a cat in love! She's Come on! anyway! ! Scratching hell out of Emma! Come on! Come on! Nanny's in! No, no I don't like that one anyway! Yeah! What's happened to the dog that was across the road, that Oh, Luka? Yeah. I think they must of sold it, she's had another baby the, that girl.! She's had a baby and sold the dog! Yeah ! Sam He was a lovely do who's Sam? Granddad look! Sam the little Sam, if you don't dog! Wey! dog you know the one with the ? The ones at the end of the road? Mm. That little . The one that kept that getting out when the wall got knocked down or something? Oh no, not the her, not Phoebe no! Oh! Erm the feller with the big teeth and the three wheeler car down there. He used to have like,le it was a bit Luka You sit in Yeah. but smaller. your couch. Lovely dog! Well what happened? Well it's been er That's right, yeah, but I've gotta put down cos it was old! Could I take it home with me? Oh it was old was it? And they got a little You've already had it once! Jack Russell they've got now I think. It is a Jack Russell. You can have our couch though. Mm Yeah ! I used to like that old dog cos he he u he, often used to come Although he frightened a few old ladies though! And he'd run up to you and bark, you know and er he was playing but she didn't realise. Oh, he never barked at me! Mummy! No! I don't remember any dog! Actually I thinks I think I sort of, won a friend because I'm sure that day that we got the groceries and I bought bones for the dogs didn't I? Oh! Yeah. And they disappeared, and I'm almost certain I dropped them outside here and Oh I re I don't remember this. Yes. While we were shopping. And er if that was the case then then Sheila wo Sheila used to give him a bone so maybe he thought Yeah. She used to throw down. Probably thought it was Christmas when he found those! in a minute! Right, have you got anything to show mummy , any work that you've done lately or any ? Any nice pictures? No! Warts or Yeah! anything? Warts! Oh yeah! Laura! I thought I haven't you'd done What's that? I haven't written in it, I've only written a little The the what? The Ponies. The Ponies pony. The Ponies Parties! The Ponies Parties! Oh it's parties? I haven't got my glasses on have I? Yeah. This is The Pony pony. a book for Maisy by S Me a book for Maisy for Scott. No, I just . Oh I see, you've just started this one have you? No, if you it's from school! Oh I see. So Yeah. is it finished? Have you done something on every page? Yes. Mm mm. It's finished. What the devil's this? It's slimer. Oh dear! Yes. A slimer! Yeah, and that's a ghost. Aha. Anything else? I haven't much one on the Oh that's i you haven't done that have you? Yeah, I did. I'm, I'm not That's good that! showing you the last one! Why? Is it It's horrible! It's a horrible one is it? Yeah! Would I be frightened? Well, it is quite, it's a horrible looking in the Beetlejuice! Really? Worse than that? Yeah! Oh! I we , well I don't wanna be frightened so I'd better not have a look at it! I'll show granddad. You got your bags? But don't peep then! Mm well you better warn him first! Granddad, the made a red one. Oh great! I can't wait for that! What was the use of this word marry in all the It's the ghost! ? I didn't want nana However nan to see it. And in Shakespeare's However Erm So marry in . No, no, they say Marry is marry will you erm, I don't know! How wo It's just I kept thinking somebody was getting married ! No, no! Marry then I realised it. Asked me three bloody times! Well go on!.. You're interpretation. It's just erm How would you translate that? You can see it nanny can see it! What do we say then? However! Say, it just See it. says. Ooh yes, that's horrible that isn't it! Urgh! I thought it was a verb that? denied oh put it away! No, it's not mm. a verb is it? Here are Put that in the horror section! you can take it take it home . It's not a verb it's just the Yes, I don't know erm And insertive one which means, you know in what context you'd use that. No passion in it is erm I mean the words that they use is a words that I use are nothing like the ones that he using! No, no,. No,wha , what They say what they feel like. What I find if you you when they get to erm not necessarily a speech but a pertinent part you've got to read it two or three times Analyse. Yes. and there's the parts that's or obvious or they're not so important, you know, between Mm. tha that's how I anyway See it. I can sort of get through it and erm understanding it's Mm. is the most important thing. And it does start to sink through after a while. I was gonna say it can be quite laboured when you first read some of it Mm. because erm and you do have to Especially if you haven't, sort of, read anything like it before, you know Mm. I mean I remember reading a few bits in English but, you know, You'll have to buy , have you seen, did you see King Lear when it was on on the television? Cos I taped that as well. No. You'll have to have a look at that, that's quite good. Mm. Laurence Olivier. It's amazing once you reach thirty that some sort of inside you go ! Yes, I think they make, I can remember going to see Hamlet with er Laurence Olivier at er while I was still at school and er we thought it What real? was great! Live? Laurence i no, no, the film! Oh the film! Mm, you know the black and white one? Yeah. And erm I tell you what , did you see must of be , be about nineteen criticism of him? fifty one, fifty two and we thought it was great going to the pictures, you know, when you were still at school, actually you know, in, on a school day sort of thing! Oh yeah. And I can remember going in and seeing this film and, it just it didn't it was so to my mind, and you know thinking back now, my memory of it was of a sort of very dark and dreary Mm. film a , the language meant nothing to me at all! Mm. I, I no I couldn't understand it! And it's only sort of, as you say, when you get older and you That you learn it. sort of well that's right, I mean, that's why I wasn't really into it Becomes more apparent. cos when I did English at school I just you know, you had to learn the poetry and that and Mm. just say, you can take a poem home and learn it and then recite at the next lesson and then used it just That's right. Cos really a lot of it is just parrot-fashion, unless you're a very unusual person I think That's it yeah. it doesn't really Brain child! sort of, have any significance until you get a bit older. I don't know whether it's Mm. sort of, life's experience make it mean more to Mm. to you. And Erm possibly understand through Mm. you know ex ex experience as you get older. The the that er criticism on er, of the The tape's on, did you know? Is it? Or is that just is that on all the time? No, it's just the light. Oh, I thought it was running okay. Erm of Laurence Olivier,emphasized wro wrongly you know, when he was speaking certain parts into the if he thought the audience was flagging then he'd speak a bit louder to you know Mm. Wake them up ! Then draw them in , yeah, yeah. I should think he's totally overrated! Mm. the way he spoke, maybe that his part and not he was that, think he's a took over the part if you know what I mean? Instead of Mm. just letting people see the part and experiencing it The role. and, yes, the role of Montesago Mm and he he became It was always Laurence Olivier and Mm. such as, you know the way he plays it. I mean, I can remember seeing an interview with er, John Geilgud and he'd he'd done Hamlet many years ago and er but he said he'd it was in a totally different way you know, different Mm. interpretation that he put on his er a much er more lyrical, perhaps you know, less erm intense and er Passionate. yeah,i more ath So everybody went to sleep? lot more athletic version if you like, that, than er Laurence Olivier, than John Yeah. Geilgud did. And he I don't think he did anything in his later years did he? Laurence Olivier to, sort of, equal what No. Any of the films I've seen is all erm Well erm there's Richard the Third of course, and er No I mean, when he was like you know Boys from Brazil, I mean Oh yes! That's cottoned Yeah. on a bit. Well I can't I mean erm I think he was the kind of person he wanted to be as diverse as possible later on, I mean, perhaps he felt constrained by the today fifty eight roles he'd done earlier on in his career and he wanted to sort of you know, have a go at everything Marrying, marrying on didn't he? so rank as may dishonour him . Marry the, and an apostrophe is it? Yeah. Married. Well then, there's none so er Ah! you know that's the it is. I wonder why it was a ? Well it's just a word like Well that's, where did they get it from? An expression. Mm. Shall I Ooh Thames! therefore You Erm can hardly see why then the more you wish yeah Well Oh well! Very well said! Very well sa well read! That's it well done! Well done! Mm. Or however Or whatever,. Yes, and it's funny how languages change isn't it, over the over the years? Only when you can see words that we've got now that adapted from words then. Mm. Some of them some of them, you know, slight change. Yes, some of it's very recognisable. But some of the words have all gone just now and Erm and eventually some speech Yeah. and the dreams. Ahh. And there's some that are er non-famous it's got a load of in Hamlet. Mm. So then, I thought oh no, it's just gone over my head this! So, when I finished reading that explanation of it, maybe I'll have a stab at it. But it makes you wonder, really, when you when you look at something like that how erm how well represented that was or representative of the kind of language that wa , that was used by er, ordinary people. At the time, yes. I mean or is it just the author's view of how Yeah. erm Well it took him What? What about Maisy? Some people say it was him that wrote it. Oh! Mm. What's is that Emily again? I'm gonna have Yes! What do you want ? Is this our old book?. Mm. I thought so. Yeah. Alright, you're ! Fifteen It's updated now isn't it? Oh aye! They only wanted to ask me their the name of the place beginning with E and a girl's name as well! Playing this game. Mm. What are you making now by the way? I'm doing pineapple and pear upside down cake for yous! How long is that going to take? Only half an hour Oh! Do it when the fan goes out. I just lost a bit, oh there it is! Oh, eggshell? No a bit of a bit of not worth mentioning! Yeah, phoned Jeannette the other day to see what she'd done about college now. Mm. She's so impatient Jeannette! God, she wants to know everything! She's always down my ear, saying well what exactly did you do and and what did you do next? I remember when I we I was working when I first met her and I've you know, just before I had Scott and she said, well how did you get a job? What did you do there? So I was saying, well what about the grant, you know, what do you have to do? She said, well just ring Town Hall, you know! Well She keen to give you any Well, yes I know that! information then? No, not er Mm. And of course, if her husbands off like, it's ooh don't bother me now, there's a few girls like you know! Mm. Cath's gone like that now! She's sort of, all over you all week and yet, when her husband is there, not her husband, her boyfriend she Mm. doesn't wanna know, you know! Well I suppose you can understand in a way. Well I yeah. I do ! Sort of! So this Oh so got the three bedrooms er semi-detached, I'll bring it in, but by erm Harden School Penalithe not Penalithe what's it called? Pen is it Penalithe Pena something anyway. Penalithe yes. That , that's At the Harden Harden school. Is that , oh! Or something! Is it erm Consaquay still or is erm No , you know Harden like No,Harden up by the school. So I'm just wondering near the whether they'll be in Harden Newlow or, or Consaquay ? No, erm Consaquay's down there isn't it? Mm, but I mean the area you know, it's is it Well a private house or No, it's a council house. That's why I say, I wonder whether it's Still fancy then?have to buy that Mm. right but then I knew I told you where Does that come under Conasquay where Pauline's hou Conasquay's over there!is he? Is he? It's really not Conasquay So that would come You know that! under Harden then? I'm just wondering which council it comes under that's all! Well it's Teebridge What, well you With Allan and Dee of course! you will get the I mean Allan and Deeside er Or Allan and Deeside then, yes! Is it all the way along Deeside then? goes into this house in Buckley, cos she's had to go up to Buckley! That's right, that's why I'm asking Yeah. you where which I thought you meant I don't know what I thought you meant! Which county ! Yeah, so she didn't wanna be rushed down here and near where he's gonna be when he comes out. Comes out? Comes out of hospital for . Oh! Got beaten up didn't he? So This isn't which, this isn't the one that was er Attacked yeah. Not that, not that feller, no! Oh and, oh! Not with the head injuries, no, it was a group of the and he was coming out of the just coming out some pub down in Conasquay and he was these lads were all singing, apparently this is what happened anyway, they were all singing and you know making merry and he said, what are you all so cheerful about or something? Oh! Went on and on at this young lad who'd spoken who thumped him he'd apparently just one punch, I don't know but but anyway all the charges have been dropped against this lad now so Mm. he was frightened to death that all Brian's mates, that they were gonna get him! Oh dear! All the drunk friends . Good heavens! So So er he's having physio and he's he can move his legs now so that's So something just trauma! Oh ah! Mm. For the, you know the reason he couldn't move. He was sort of well he was paralysed wasn't he? Traumatised. Yeah from the neck down. This is the one who's was living with another woman and his Yeah. wife Young girl she Yeah. worked at the erm at The Clwyd and he me , you know, he used to be in there all the time! Dinner time, night time, you know, as soon as he finished work he was down there! Mm. So I mean, now it's apparent why he was there all the time isn't it, you know? Mm. For her. I didn't know that did I? I was similar circs But Yeah. but erm he's been trying to get her back now, you know, but he didn't wanna give up this other girl! I mean you can't, he said you know, have your cake and eat it sort of thing Yeah. he wanted her to come back to him, but he wanted to keep this girl on the go! Relationship going. I don't know Strange! but, and she's so quiet, Pauline is, if it was me I'd be climbing the walls! I'd be saying that fucking it!, she doesn't say that she's sort of been he's still Great! got this other girl, you know and I say Mm. Being matter of fact Pauline about it. Yeah. Suppose Mm. she can't get too worked up with the asthma in case she er In case she has an attack. has an attack! Oh that's Mm. another thing Jonathan, Jackie's er, lad, the one that's gone onto Cornwall, he's been in hospital he's had another Again? attack. Oh! Yeah, they hadn't been in hospital for a few years, they haven't, I've never known to go in. Is that the eldest one is it? The eldest one. Yeah, cos they, they've all had They think it was the stress, I mean moving down to Cornwall! Well,th oh the the three boys and her have all No, no two boys Andrew they think have got it, he's just the little chubby one I don't Mm. know if you remember? Smallest one? The one that always used to go er er That's right, yeah. in the cupboards! Go to the fridge and eat all my bananas and that. Yeah. But er Scott Couldn't say the language but he could polish He that's right, well he's seeing a speech therapist now. Is he? Jonathan has to So he did have a problem then? Obviously. Yeah , well Jackie she had see a speech therapist and she did have trouble pronouncing can't remember Words. what sh , words, but now and again she'd start to say something and then she'd sort of, find an easier an way to say it ! Yes. Yeah, an alternative. Mm. So er Mm. Okay, we'll stay till the kids are here. Anyway, so he's out of hospital now is he the other Who? one? The Brian? I don't know! No, no, the la no, Jackie's little boy. Oh, yeah! Just one night she said. Yeah. Mm. One night in hospital, but she thinks, she said after that, and he is improving and he's doing P E now so Mm. he must be improving , perhaps the air down is different from here. Yes, I was gonna say it's gotta be better Not like here. than here because it's erm so damp down here isn't it, near the river? And plus, you know, she's in flat now where she's got heating and it's Yeah. Good God, yeah, she was frozen in that house wasn't she? Oh God! Terrible in there! Like the North Pole up there. It was, yeah. But she's sworn me to secrecy. Mind you, I wasn't gonna tell anybody she was writing to me anyway! Just in case he's gets a whiff of it, you know. I don't know how she's gonna Well what difference would that make, with, I mean Well because he's very he's been very awkward with her hasn't he? And And he's not gonna be all, going all the way down to Devon Oh no! though is he? No , er, he has got relatives down there. Really? Yeah. Oh good heavens! That's how she met him at relatives party. Oh! Well what about the Distant rel relatives like. well it's more likely that she's gonna see one of the relatives than him, isn't it? Mm. That's true, yeah! His aunty, I think it was. But whether she'll be very sympathetic to Jackie none o none of Jackie's family came to the wedding, like you know! Mm. Anyway, she's got the hots for this feller down there that she used to go out with he's about forty eight or something like that but She pref , preferred Jackie, this is? them older. Jackie? No, this feller that she likes, she's she's younger than me, Jackie! Wouldn't know it would you to No. And she's found somebody already? Well, this feller Colin i , she used to go out with him before she met Steve she used to, she went on a nanny's course, she went to college to be a nanny Mm. and she was going out with him like and seeing pictures of her when she was younger and she's just the sa , big but Mm. a young face, you know! and erm how am I gonna do this? Oh my God! Where's the milk? Anyway he came up to London, she went to London to be a nanny to this woman with three kids like, you know, two babies and a an older one and she said he came up at a time, he said, sorry, you know, gotta finish he's got this girl pregnant! So he married her this girl anyway, they're divorced now, like you know, I thought Mm. I mean, Jackie hoping there might be some sort of spark left. She lo , I mean she's a lovely girl though! Ni , a nice natured girl Yeah. yeah. Very, oh very loves children Easy going. yeah. Easy going nature and you know just Mm. a bit sort of I don't know, easily strayed i Mm. So mind you, if you your confidence is knocked for so long yo you only Well I believe in what everyone Yeah. says in the end! I mean, her dad wasn't the best of dads to her so So i well, presumably she's near her family, her parents Yeah and her Erm she must be getting some kind of Yes, yeah, and her life's support? sort of built up, her mum and dad come you know? Mm. and down there. Mm. Are you gonna read that all that book? Me Mmm. yeah. Why, do you want to read it ? No ! You'd rather converse . No, I'll just read some of it. Put these in the little house, they like them! Oh! things, peanuts and er Peanuts? Where? You're not having peanuts! We're gonna get those out to have with tea dad. Ah Peanuts ! Oh Scott's mad for peanuts! Is he ? No. The girls would be mad if they could get near it! If they could get to them before Scott Yeah. you mean? Now they keep saying, mummy you always give him more than you give us! You're always give him the last sweet to him! You always let him get away things! You know,, yeah I do you know ! But then I have to say, remind myself to be a bit more stern with him! Mm. But er I was saying to Mrs the other day, asked about Scott what the heck! Oh I was on about sewing cos I said I'd let them, you know, they were all doing a bit of sewing the other weekend, they all had a go like erm ooh, you know, I was saying he that Scott can cook and that, you know, we've had a note he's having one on, supposed to be all all of them to be independent, you know? Mm. But I always seem to end up lecturing when I'm talking to him, you know instead of just saying, I was saying I want them all to be independent, you know! She must think I'm really mad! You know, this divorced woman, you know! She's very nice Ann, she's okay. Mm. We've got to do er, we were doing these Mother's Day cards and she said, oh we've got to ta , the curriculum has changed now Mm. the teachers aren't allowed to dictate the children, if they want erm to do something or make something they have to make up a plan of what they're gonna do first Mm. and they have to think of it all by themselves, the teachers can't say ooh ooh well put flowers on there. They can't suggest anything. That's Yeah. it, yeah, and she said a cos he's like it, she said it is very hard she said, I'm used to saying Showing them. Yeah, do this Mm. and they I said, yeah, so I got oh and they came up with some really good a ideas, you know! Cut out Mm. cards and that. Yeah quite spontaneous. Two of these halves on a turtle design erm er the door had two halves but they managed to put one part like that, cut Make them look like turtles! it out and put legs on ! And she said, oh yes, she di Fine children! So I hope they It just shows you how they're in influenced though doesn't it, by Yeah. But the you know? rest of them, I mean films and television Ooh they looked terrible! and Yeah. Oh, there were ones that didn't look like Mother's day cards but still! But er Mr sort of the student teacher there, he's a bit of alright, like! He's a bit young for me! And er he was hovering behind me in the classroom, like you know ! I mean,he was getting something out of the cupboard,ha nothing to do with me ! But er, Laura likes him like, you know, she says Jamie pinched my crisps before, you know just imagine all these little girls giggling! Mm. And all the classroom. And erm when we were doing these cards Mrs , that's Scott's old teacher, she's very nice, very modern Mm. was telling this story about this princess, this very erm independent princess didn't wanna know about the prince, like er, it was quite a funny story ! But er gosh, you , you made me jump you! You know,so they must of been talking about it Twenty four hour television, now then. Thanks. Yeah, we have the technology. Forty eight hours , forty eight hours! Forty eight hours? Oh a new telly to go with it, look at this! New telly. Ooh ooh! My word! Hey we got What's all this on Thames? It's it's is it? He'll be wanted satellite now! Ooh that's nice! What's this, an Amstrad is it? It's the fo I is it the four screen one we've been watching? Yeah. Is it? Oh that's very clear then. So it's But it is . screen! That's Not the same. Oh! What's that er that Where d'you go? Where did go,Roberts's? Yeah. Mhm. We said you would. Looked in there didn't you? I thank you sir! Oh! They put up the telly Why d'you keep telling me? the back. That could well be Well something else. I think they've gotta . Signals. Now that's something I won't with a bit sloping down. Oh now it's on the back of the house? That's right and then so the house may need Mm. a place would it, wouldn't have been Oh, in the right spot? It doesn't, it's not too bad there like, especially when we went to, you know it's not there's no . Yeah. Yeah. But er they said I couldn't have it there the wind would get Ye it too much. Yes. Oh funny thing I was having a look at one of Carrie's, she's got the Radio Times which we don't get, only at Christmas time. Yes. And have having a look a the er the films you know Sky and er, what's Yeah. the other one? Sky one and two it is. Oh is that ha , is that But there's an ano , there was some other name wasn't there? No? No. Oh! What both from the same same dish? Yeah. Yeah. And all o all the different erm films that are on, you know. pay monthly for that now or No, I borrowed that. No, but I mean don't you have to pay for those Oh for the films, I haven't got, I haven't got that. Oh! What's that? How does that work then? I don't understand at all. Well you have to have, you have to have a the only the trouble with it is, I've got , I'll either have to put them up here or I'll have to scrape scrape some of the wall out I can't close the door! I measured everything bar there! Is it the way Oh! No. I thought you meant the shelf was up wrong! Oh that's too deep! You see I've Oh. it's not to deep, it fits in. Mm. But what I've got It don't you've got have the aerial at the back and that connects And that's protruding you see. You see. I see. And like, so I can't close the door. I didn't think you had to ha have the aerial coming from the for the hole in the wall. Yeah ! You Yeah. I'll just have them on there you see, that's Mm. Mm. So as I can Oh, that's a shame! Couldn't you have that hinge mounted slightly further forward I've asked for a on the on the that's for so much. That's what they want that's what they used for it . That would hold it dead out then wouldn't it? I told them I've lost my . No, it wouldn't make any Put it difference. Save the hassle, yeah. Alright, well i well it would! Surely it would! I mean if you've set that there Why? at the moment. I mean you'd No! have a gap. You won't! I mean hi Well normally you'd see Well no,you'd have to alter the other one as well wouldn't you, to make it e even Mm. Yes, oh Mm ay! Mm But I mean it wouldn't, you wouldn't close that The only other thing on that it wouldn't close on that. The only other thing you could do Oh ah! Ken is have those taken off and, is this a door here? Yeah. And have those mounted on the bottom so that it's a drop down shelf. What would that do? But there again it still wouldn't Wouldn't do anything! Mm. Couldn't use that though could you? Well, no, I'm just thinking you could have it sent , but I mean it was just be on that one now wouldn't it? No it still wouldn't , no it still wouldn't close would it? Wouldn't close would it? You could do the same with both of them though wouldn't you? Oh absolutely! Oh! So Same thing is to take the take screws off and just try and door and see whether how much extra space you need, I mean, maybe you might be able to do it by just Well it Well I'm sure, I'm sure Yeah but you can tell when you put you could move that forward there! Well gotta have the hole haven't you? Space I know! between the Yes! two You're not gonna see it cos there's one on the end, it's right next to the wall isn't it? Have a gap there but I mean whereas at the moment it's like that, not to that. Even though it's on the front to there of the cabinet aren't you, it's gonna protrude beyond close the But right hand one now. but it does now though doesn't it? I mean they're sticking out Well I mean, you're gonna be another like that. It's gonna be another inch isn't it? Yeah, but that's neither here nor there! Cos the top's got a good overlap. I mean you wouldn't notice that would you Ken? I wouldn't be bothered about that. Just looking for a solution to the problem that's all! Got to think about these things you know. Ooh, I know what I was going to do! Going on broadcasting now? No it's Sally's, it's Sally's. What is it? broadcast. No, it is, it is the same thing actually. Erm. I, I sort of meant to bring one of those one of those forms home. You've got your earphones have you? No, they're ordinary earphones. Well there are,. You're taping on there? Mm. I'm gonna be a spy! Training! Well you might get some facts right if you did! They want No those all the funny accents in the area ! What for? This lady came round from er Here are, I'll turn it off. Oh I don't wanna , what's that? Oh my Godfather! Oh is this your er after one . Is this these what do they call it? The erm oracle is it? This is er I don't know! This is for your telly. Good Yeah. grief! if you please? Which these, Ken? Yeah. And that's for your telly. I hate i , when did That goes down. they put it, install it? Yesterday. So they've obviously given you instructions on how to No, they didn't because they didn't finish till half five they didn't get here till I got soaked yesterday morning! Ooh, I'm not So I surprised! So I, I didn't there I didn't finish well I I I and I turned round! I knew you had! I thought I bet Ken will go down the road and I mean it was all white . Yeah. Poor old Lucy! I bet you were soaking! From here I was, I was s soaked! So that's er that's your control for your telly. Mm. Hiya! Lucy! Mm. And then you've got your there. Bigger picture isn't it? Yeah. Mm. And you've got i you know, it's a bigger screen. Yes, I know you're there! Ah ha ha ha ha ha! Then then you've got your your screen er your ga da what's his name? It shows your The volume? it shows you're on your volume you see, and it shows you Oh you've gotta there what what, how you whatever you're doing. Oh! And how does go off round to Yeah, that goes there. Put it there. Yeah. Oh Lu ! Oh Lu ! It does this is er this can control your your er your stations as well. Is that for for trapping it in or tuning it in at all or a different thing? No, this is this is just for changing the stations. Oh you just pick it and it'll Is that Channel Four? How do you know which station it is? Well it, it comes on there! Oh, it comes on the screen does it? Oh Oh yeah, one, one! But if you wanted you could ? Now there, you can have your what's it's name? But er What are the colours at the bottom? Th th , those aren't working options either. Mm mm. So that's no that's er Quietly!manufacturers . Well this is er this is see whatever's on B B C one. Mm. Then you've gotta Oh it's isn't it? I wonder if Kelly's taping that? I haven't even looked what's on tonight. Yeah. Cos I've had it I haven't bothered I didn't You haven't bothered to look! So er that's that you've also got Look! Obviously the end of the film and he's come back! I've seen that one you know. Yes it's been on. It has been on before. Well what about Sky and that, Ken? Yes I have, yeah. Oh! Yeah just . V C R. Excuse me a minute! Do you have to point it at the telly? It's a good idea I suppose. Put it you have to Channel Ten, you want it on Channel Ten for your bedroom. For the ah Er, for your for Sky. For Sky. And that's er Well I thought you had to pay for that Ken? Which is the one you have to pay for? What one of the stations that you receive? Every month. Er your film channels. Oh that isn't Sky? Oh! Yeah it's Sky Yes. but that's, that's Channel that's that's your first channel on your what's his name? Well! Mm. That's Channel Two. Is er, is it continental tv or Continental and British tele I see! British. So you could watch French television or German television? Well you can watch German mostly. Yeah. Er you know you got all the different channels. So how many are, are there there? Ooh there's well this this will hold fifty channels. Agh! But there's not fifty channels put on. No, oh no not all Not yet. There's not er so whatever channels there are, well you know that there's a lot of them! Mm. So which one have you got to pay for? Wait a minute! Mm. Well I'm . See that's one Oh I see! there you've got to have a card. Oh! But the is the for that, I mean? This is the card for Lots of things. the, excuse me! So you've gotta buy the cards No, you have to buy the card Oh! Where do you get those from then? Well you Television shop is it? Er, yeah. They're like that. Oh yeah. How much? Depending on Er, well it depends er one or the two, you can either one or two. All the same price? No one Ah, oh I see one's one. One is for , one is, one is about er it's about nine pounds I think, for one for twelve For the card? for twelve months. Er, no nine pounds a month isn't it? Er, the other one is er about seventeen pounds for the two. So you can watch So so you're saving watch as many as you can. And you just Bob, Bob gave me Er, er if you like . thi , Bob gave me this but er unfortunately you see but er yes It won't go in. It will go in Nothing happens! You're card is invalid. Oh! It's, it's, it's run out! It tells you the date. Ah! Oh! Mm! See? So that you can't Yeah. so you can't use it. Well what did he give you that for? Well no, he thought it was It's, oh yeah! it was er in He thought he had some more left. It's still er A good one! Yes valid. Get off! So what are they for, for? Are they just for a month are they the cards? No, you get them, you can get them Or twelve months. for twelve months. If you can oh, but you gonna pay That's right you have to you have to obviously and Yeah. seventy quid or something? Well the first time you have to get it for at least six months. Do you really? Then you can get it monthly after that if you want. So it's quite expensive really when you think It's not cheap! about it? Depends what you want, if you wanna watch a lot of films. Well, yeah Yeah. that is er Yeah. Well, I must say You know, you might have three or four lads that's going to work in the family all, like, watching films Mm. an , and then it's Well it's not that, it's the If there's only you the fact you get the films or recent films Not all of them they're not! Not all of them No? Some No. are old, they got one er erm Oh, no some of them are really old ones! Yeah, nineteen fifty seven Ah! one I notice. Ooh yeah, oh! aren't Ah you? I don't know why erm You get er Whether they're hard to get or whether they haven't got them on the normal channels I don't know! But that's another thing sport you get a lot of sport on here Yeah. Yeah. And,so you can't Especially winter sports, you see er think of that i i i if you have a particular interest what are the other things that Games. specialities that you can get? Quiz games from Quiz games. a around you can get can't you Ken? Yeah. From America and er But, but yeah, you know er and Europe Europe, England er Mm. Yes. these things. They're all er you can get You could get er er you can get stereo sound on it as well you know! Mm. You can get I mean, it's not connected up but you can have er you can have it connected it up to the ra , to the radio and get concerts through the stere in stereo. Mm . You know, you can get the er gonna go for the commercial presentation, ha! Could do without my it's grown to nothing since I moved! Well you get, you get you get programme God, it's like a horror! It's, it's the Adverts. adverts. Mm. Mm! Mm She's got one as well. And his secretary. Are they American Ken or so , she sounds American. A lot of them. Ooh they've got er this a cockerel with well one's, one's a cockerel doing commercials you know? Mm. Oh she's . Yeah. Wouldn't it save? It looks good that doesn't it? Oh! Oh that's That's Yeah. Make them worse! That's true that! Oh! Mm. Oh God! Oh that's only a false nail! Just a false nail Ray! I know that, but it's underneath. . yes, I believe . , yeah. What if they're bitten to ruddy hell? Mm, got the ? Mm. Listen well if they're long nails already they're Right. Oh that's clever for getting the polish off! Yeah, just a bit. Trouble is, the bloody finger falls off as well! Gosh, is this all it's for this television? We've had twenty minutes on the same thing! Oh God! Yeah, that's the thing channel select.. were on the blink! Yeah, well I knew you said the erm the So video was going a bit haywire! So I'll get that er I'll get it done get one, get both of them done and then er So you can't get this now then? Movie Channel? I can't no I can't get the Movie Channel. Well what can you get then withou without the card? Got to find the stations. Well no, I can get er I can get what er well I, well you can go through them on that just press there Style of these guys! It's incredible channels and look! Look at him! Gee! Mm. That's here are you can go, you can go through that now just keep pressing that one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine Ah. and then press that one and it'll go up to Well where do you go? It's fif , as I say, there's fif , that's one now, you've got it on one. It's dif , I mean, some of them there's nothing on! Ah that's because you've pressed that no, you're pressing too quick! He's helpless! Just, leave it! Let it go! And just press three oh not one again! He doesn't look at the numbers! You've gotta look at yo , you're doing! Oh it's Ger , German is it? Here are! Now let it go! Oh it's different to the other one isn't it? Erm There's nothing on that one on four. Why delay on the cos it's gotta search round this I suppose it's gotta Oh I see now, yeah! Indoor fun board. Gee whizz! Oh this is the what's a name they do on the surf board, acrobatics! They were doing this , they were doing this lo , yesterday this su , windsurfing, they were doing windsurfing indoors. Go on! They'd got these big fans they got and the way they were rac racing, and they got these big fans and they Good God! yeah it was! It was all Cos they're tremendous with the swimming pool indoor or whatever it is. it was! And they were, the speeds they were getting up to! Look at this! Gee whizz! Look at that! How the devil do they contro ! This is what Carl he used to erm Well Bob, Bob does windsurfing! like go in the he doesn't do that though! Choo! Wey! These are the girls these are! Yeah. Choo! They must be strong in the legs! And the arms. Wah! Wey! Looks fantastic Gone off! doesn't it? She's gone over! Mm. She's gone! Oh look at that, in front of the wave! Very hard . Wow! Choo! They sort of hold the sail on the wind, a bit like Mm. a parachute jump, Yeah, that's right, yeah. I think the fellers are just that wee bit more acrobatic aren't they? Well they're stronger as well I think! Weee! Oh! yes! Ohh! Oh! Gee whizz! Oh, oh oh! And he's as well! That's marvellous that, isn't it yes? It's amazing! Shoo! How long does it take to get like that I wonder? It's probably Australia that. Could be Could be or could be Hawaii perhaps? Hawaii yeah. that's what the best place they reckon don't they,Waikiki Ah! Come up again, look at that! Yeah, he's coming up! He came again. He wanted a wave One hand! Did he say he wanted another Yeah. wave then? So Yeah. Good grief! Let the wave carry him up and then sort of hurl himself off the top of it. I know when Carl was, was doing it in a modest way and he, he'd seen this on, and he said it's impossible that the way they do it! Mm! Can't be impossible? Well, you know, he was I suppose he was saying it in an admiring way? Yeah. He said there's no way you can get that sort of lift without what I mean whatever they do. you've gotta get the wind and you gotta get the Mm. sur , the surf You've gotta have the conditions you see? Yeah. Gotta be in the right places you see. Yeah. Which I don't suppose you get here. And the right board and sails. Oh! German. Alright if you're a Gerry! But we're not. But some of them there Oh there's nothing on that one Ken, right? What have you done? What have you pressed? Well I've pressed number seven. Oh it's the Press same one now! Oh well pre , that's six. Press seven. I don't know what's happened there, I mus That's Channel Nine now press Give it to Ken! Which is the opera one? Haven't got that. You have to have a card for that. Do you? I wonder if you could learn the language just watching the foreign station? No! You may if you've got a be , if you've got a bit of knowledge of it. Mm. Oh yes! It would help. What was that? What? I munched! This is the same in any language! Mm. Well Ken, has it been worth it? oh excuse me!and excuse me again! What are you gonna do, get the cards are you, or what? Well I dunno yet. See whats See how you get on with this. At least you got a decent television,have a decent video See, see a you can have! Yeah. I should try that Ken, I should take erm is off. Yeah. In fact, there's an adjustment on those isn't there that enables you to slide them forward isn't there? I dunno. Mm, I think so. Anything like the ones on our wardrobe. I don't know. Looks like Michael Caine! It is Michael Caine! Yeah. There's not a lot of it about! Oh and er, Sigourney Weaver. I wonder, you know, how they how they try and synch them, how the voices go in? Mm. German, oh was it? Yeah. They're dubbed yeah. Yeah, but it seems to sound like the person though doesn't it? Oh what, who No. what, who was it? Not from what I see! The voices are totally di , in fact the Clive James showed a few clips of dubbed films I mean er John Wayne, I mean he's supposed to be so and he sounded so funny in Japanese! Oh yes. But who was it? Was it Gregory Peck or one of them walked into this studio in America, oh James Stewart was it? And er this bloke said er how are you, how are you, how are you? Are you keeping well? Cos he wanted him to keep making films because he was dub , he do , always dubbed his voice! And he sa , he said er, he was very interesting! He'd have been out of a job if he'd He was very, yeah, he was only interested in er in his what's a name? You know, how he was getting on. In his health. Yeah. And I said I couldn't make it out at first. B B C one. Yeah. Wimpy and Tarzan Oh! erm well he played Tarzan, it wasn't called Tarzan it was Oh er called Broad Grey Greystoke. Greystoke. It was Greystokes, that bought out that. Greystokes, wasn't it la er Er yeah. Lord of Greystokes Manor or something like that? This is the Chichido Yin Oh, is that what it is? Mm. I think so. It was a good book this! Yes I know. They don't they don't give the film a very good name. Oh! Because er there's no , it was a sa , based on a true Well it's about the erm his character Yeah. a bandit. Yeah. who was on the side of the people. A Robin Hood. And I There was a good Italian film made of this about twenty five years ago. Did he from the rich and give to the poor? Mm. And gave some to himself. They all turned against him in the end didn't they? Mhm oh yeah. Although one of them tried to get him to America. Mm. Oh I know him, he's the Oh Josh Ackland's in this isn't he? Is he? Mm he's the Godfather. You've seen the erm preview. trailer. Have you got your heating on full Ken? Yeah. Christ it is chilly isn't it? Must be me ! Seemed quite hot when we came in. We went, we went to Jeannette's last night and it was roasting in there! She must of turns her, hers up full cos it did go cold didn't it I mean, outside? Ooh it was, it was Because we had sleet didn't we last night? He reminds me of Jose Perera. Oh yeah. No, well yes, I suppose. No, I was thinking of erm Size of this bloke! Good grief! forgotten his name. Did you see what's his name tonight? Didn't have my tea till while he was on er what's his name? Bob calls him the murderer! With a beard Not erm what's his name? Cla erm What in, Ken? He does this show tha from Crinkly Bottom doesn't he? He has the chi , the kids all asking him questions about their parents. No, I don't know him. Yo you have seen him actually, it's Oh er Noel Noel Edmonds. Oh him, ah yeah! He, well he go , he goes into people's houses doesn't he, with this, you know, this hidden camera well you should of seen the size of this bloke! He was six one honestly he was to his mates, a right con and all this it was hanging over me and he's a lorry driver. He hadn't got any Yorkie bars by the sound of it! Yeah. That looks like Terence Stamp photograph ! Terence No he's watching through a telescope isn't he? Terence what's his name? Stamp. Stamp. Stamp. You should tape this, I had to tape this, you said when Oh no I read about that I've I've forgotten a lot of it. Mm. They will have shotguns and ser Yeah, it does look like Jose Perera. What breed is he? And he's not English is he? Who? This actor. I've got no idea! Oh! Italian. Juliano! or American. That was him. He's American. Erm . That's pretty near to Italian! The only thing interview is being on first. the first, he must rate the his second wife did it! Yes You know but she can't Yes. kill herself because er, they can't have children and that. That's right. But er I don't know what the situation is today, I haven't seen Oh! her for a few years. Erm Is your a sorry state? Mhm. Well Lucy, you're well relaxed there! Yeah, she's had a busy day! I'm trying to keep our dogs out of the lounge cos they've been on the settee that many times Mm. and I've we've taken the the old settee down to Carrie's and moved the two seater and the armchair down this end and they flew in tonight straight up on the sofa, I said to it's gonna be tough for a week or so but they've gotta get used to staying on the floor, I'm not having them on the furniture all the time cos they just absolutely ruin it! Especially when it's like this, now they go outside and it's And they come in, I mean he skids in the hall at night I mean it's my fault I threw the rubber ring towards the kitchen down the hall he sort of skidded before he got there and there was a, and he must of had mud er, you know like like he had oh that's dirt in between his toes there's there's and we just, what he must of had and he skidded and there was a blooming long track of mud down the carpet you know! So Well you just, you just don't think you know, I mean, about every time you sprinkle dog wipe Well this is the trouble wiping Yeah. Yeah. Or you forget that it's wet, or whatever! Yeah. Like Yeah. I say, this time of the year, it's rotten! That's the thing that even when it's dries out it still clings to the Well it does, yeah! skin and Yeah. it just comes off as dust on Yeah. on the furniture you know! Mm. I mean they should be in the ruddy kitchen I suppose, but then you get to the stage where it's Well they should be outside in a kennel! That's what I always say! Is there any good having a ruddy dog, you know, I mean, why do you have one Well we to start with? we like pets You know, I mean it's Well they're they're fairly close Yes. to hand but erm you know, I don't wanna go to bed with them! Well You know, there is a limit! Yeah. That, you've gotta say well Yeah well it's a you can do this but you can't do that and and really they're, they're like children in a way, they will sort of try it on as much as they can get away with it! Well of course! So Ooh there! Oh what they're doing? That's why I said to you don't feed them titbits at the table because it's so easy to It get them well it is, is! and they sit there and he's gorping at you while you're eating you know! And they jus , just just just, yeah I think it's er, it's habit that. Well Luc Lucy, Lucy,Luc ! You're not supposed to be on here! We're just talking about that aren't we? She's a funny dog! Aren't you ay? You're a funny old sausage! Yes you are! She's getting on a bit now! How old's Lucy now, Ken? Ken ! He's gone out in the garden now. Can't hear. either that or banging his head on the wall! Mm well this is certainly a nice television! As telly's go! Mm mm. Seem to be a lot of German stations on it, aren't there? Well ha, perhaps because of the size of the country then there maybe more stations than in France, or maybe it's just the way the satellite is pointing to pick up you know, you just happen to pick up more German stations, I don't know! Well there seem to be quite a few German er, German! Quite a few American erm documentaries, almost aren't they? Those . Mm. Peace programmes and that, I don't know whether they're just being broadcast I mean you wo you know, Ken, you know those American programmes that were on? Just a minute! I'm just wondering whether they were Ya. were they being transmit , they weren't being picked up from the U S A were they? I don't know to be honest. Unless they're being, unless they transmit them from one satellite to another. , but whether they are or whether they're And then down to us. re pre-recorded or what, I don't know. Oh yes. I just wondered But the whether the Germans would be, I mean if it's coming from a German T V station but do they broadcast American you know, English speaking programmes there in Germany Must do. for us to pick them up here I mean. Well, I I've er I don't know how they do it really. Because they were all in English, well American . Yeah. I do , I don't know to be honest. No. You just er, you just take it for granted don't you? You got a book then? Well I mean a film just read up on it and let us know! it showed you Michael Caine, well that was all dubbed wasn't it? Oh well no, those are films aren't they? Ha, why are you wagging this? You mean the documentaries? You scallywag! Er, oh! The documentaries and that, I mean er Er oh! I suppose they th , well they must what's his name? Be, if they dubbed them they must be pre-recorded. Mm Mm. but they, I mean, oh they weren't dubbed were they? I mean, so they couldn't have been for er er Germany. No , I mean the, no they can't be for the German audience, they must be for the British. Yes you know. Al , although some of them they do them in German and er well there's one there that's a continual er it is American, well it's an American style programme but I mean they advertise all kinds of things from all Mind you, bearing in mind they've still got but they give the prices at the end. Yeah. They give the prices in all the different countries see? Yeah. I mean the different Different currencies. currencies. Er I was gonna say they've still got American bases there haven't they? I know they've been pulling a lot out Ooh yeah, ooh yeah! but there are still American bases . Well they've still got American bases there. So maybe er maybe they do transmit there. For Well they could do. the English speaking Yeah! You know? Well I mean it would Troops, forces that are there. With modern technology it wouldn't be any problem would it? We have the the technology! The technology! They're bound to be ! Build you up and we can knock you down! Kick your arse! What did Ken say they think all they gotta do is kick arses! Who the That one was Tenerife was it? Cos it said like like holiday maker so they get up there for a rest! And he sent a photograph of you know, people in the boat and eating these things, you know? I said I must watch that on Monday night, I like the wildlife programmes. Yeah, some of them are good! Trouble is, it's always the disappearing ones isn't it? Yes, usually it's you're sort of bombarded from all sides by The doomed! the seemingless endless problems that yo unable to to do very much about! That was a cracker that Dimbleby did! Done it with Susie . The part where they went to the erm the what do they call it now? The flooded forest Oh the erm flooded for six months of the year wasn't it? The rain for , er no, it wasn't the rain forest, but yes. The flooded rain forest or something was it? I think it was. Well I don't think it was a rain forest! Was this the river that overflowed in this particular created this this lu For six months of the year it was under water! Yeah! The trees and a a all of those All these creatures came out of the mud and Yes, yeah, I, well I taped it didn't I? Got it on tape then . Did you? Mm. Flooded rain forest, I'm sure that's what it was called. And then, the other six months of the year when the water recedes a different sort of species comes and inhabits this area and then Mm. again, the cycle Amazing! it goes on again. Yeah. But didn't they have didn't they say the fresh water's ? Yeah. Allsorts! It isn't gonna be very deep! No. But obviously deep enough for er Yeah when if the rains came and it started to er pour away, my God it was tumultuous! Going down to the valleys. Mm. Mm. I think it must have been the What's that programme that was on the other day about the erm ohhh! Where was it? No Ga , was it Ghana? About the trees? About the, yes, this Yes. exposee about the Ghana. er well that was corruption from the government! Well I suppose most corruption starts at the top doesn't it? It has to for it to be festering at the bottom! But erm Good grief man! Good Lord Ken! You've gone to town tonight seeing all this! Ooh hell! No not really Er just a bit of cheese and a bit of pate. You know it seems it awful really that two of those places were aren't they?all these, all the forest Oh God! fern and Thanks er I mean if somebody did grow a tree I mean, it must be harder in that kind of area but but wi with the right will for people to plant a tree and grow it it's just as easy Ahhh. as chopping it down! Well, you know, I mean with Up. correct management they should be able to profit from the forests you know a as well replenish them. And so unfortunately, it's the short term that's all they think about! Ah,it's not. At the end of the day it's just greed and profit to gain If you want a decent tree to grow and sod tomorrow! If you want decent trees it takes a long time to grow them! Well the hardwoods, yeah. Yeah, Mm. I mean they don't grow overnight do Yeah. But even so, I mean even that can be managed. Course it can. At the moment they just What is this Ken? That's German smoked. You don't have to light it! It's rather nice that! Is it? We've tried this before when Didn't you try it at ah ah, try it. I can't remember now. No, I don't think so. I don't think we had any cheese did we? Can't remember that. Ee ah trouble is you can't see where your cut is when you slice it like that it, oh here we go! Gosh they're going again with Paul and Cathy. Paul and Cathy are going. Are they? Yep. Driving again and Oh it's When are they goi , when? When have they booked for? Er Ooh I think I'll have a bit of that . May was it? Well, I was going to say is it before Ann has the baby? It's when Car , yes, no ah Is it going to be, it's gonna be about Er I'm not sure. Well the baby's due after May so if they're going in May Oh well it'll be a , that's It's before Oh is that pate? Yeah. Oh that's okay. Many thanks. You can take that with you that er, if you don't use it up. You don't like the pate? It's no good to me! Well Ray likes it. Oh these are nice! I was born to a good life to Born to a good life. Well what are you doing here then? Oh yes! Well it hasn't happened yet but still! Oh! So was I, I was convinced! Oh he's even drooled over me look! I wish! And I was always convinced that I would Better things. I was, I was left on on the doorstep The wrong handbag Ken, you was didn't you? For the rich. I read that story Ken. yes. What happened? They kept saying that We what? they never came back for me. Saying well here here's an ugly little bugger let's do a swop! And they left me instead! They took the ugly one ! So, oh well! What's that Cheshire one? I haven't tried that. Perhaps er I got that Crumbly, is it? I got it from, I don't know, I got it from Holston's and I haven't had any from there before. I went into that Roberses the delicatessen part Mm. and er they were queuing up there so I couldn't be bothered standing in the queue, so I didn't. Didn't get it from there? I didn't stay there for that. Mm, that's distinctive isn't it the smoked one! Mm. Very nice! I haven't had this particular one before but we used to get a little used to be able to get it in little about Yeah. tha , that big and er no, I expect the It's on don't, they reckon they can make Cheshire anywhere now can't they? No, it's not what it used to be. There must be somebody who can get it? Get what? Cheshire cheese is not necessarily indigenous to Cheshire now. Oh what,wha They make it in lots of places. you mean it's been made in Devon No and called Cheshire cheese? Well I don't know about Devon, I'm not sure. No, I I do , I think it's erm Only made in Cheshire? I would have thought so. You mean they're using the recipe somewhere else? Yes. Oh. Making and you I don't think so. over the over the road into Whatever! whatever. In North Wales. I don't know, I would have thought that to call it Cheshire cheeses it must be Ain't got any ruddy North Wales cheese or Clwyd, so what ? Perhaps in the Mm. used,ya , you used to be able to get it and it would crumble it was rea , you know real Oh yeah that was distinctive part of it. That cor It was er Not like that now. No. I always remember going to, somewhere with Ken this girl gave us a lump of cheese, it must of been Cheshire. Ooh I I loved that! They got this bloody knife and cut half the bloody cheese, I thought I mean, I'm not a polite person when it comes to food am I? Must of had about two ounces on the bloody plate! Haven't got the thing on now have you, while you feeding yourself No. up? Munching ! He's one of the little munchkins! And then, when he was eating the putting the marmalade on his toast in the hotel the knife And licked the knife! Ooh, oh! You scallywag! I mean you do that sort of thing at home don't you, but You scallywag! Oh Christ ! Yeah! Yes you are! It's just how he was brought up I suppose an I remember reading this book it was partly, it was about the German Navy Mm? and er sh , you know the test before they could become officers they set captain set the table, you see the and they have this food that they know how, how to use the cutlery, this was one of the tests of being an officer. Oh yeah! Mm. You know, to er they didn't know how to use the cutlery, and, they were, they we , yeah Which piece to use for which course. they weren't, they weren't gentlemen so they couldn't be er they couldn't be officers. Mm. Oh there's a lot of that well done wasn't there? It's called the class structure. Yeah. Or system. Well, ironically his creed was supposed to be without that wasn't it Hitler? You know, this supreme race but all more or less equal. Well no, that wasn't the case! He wanted to create a supreme race didn't he? No, but the er the Germans they were the supreme body weren't they? he's he's and er he wanted to create a super race. But the army was run on the old style wasn't it? Of course. You know, they were the they were the er the masters of the army. Oh well, this was the main course Ray! And then of course the Air Force, they'd be one up again I suppose. Ah well then maybe You mean the Luftwaffe? Mm. Mm mm. The . Well this is Luftwaffe. Betty. Mm. Unfortunately there seems to be a resurgence of of this now doesn't there in Europe? Yes. This right wing element which is Terrible! It's frightening really because you think well you know, I mean you said the years well that couldn't happen Well again but but how long does it take before it does happen again? I mean, do the other do these things happen in cycles and tha you know, is it possible that it'll happen again on a greater scale? A grand Well scale, if you like? it er I mean, it's having grounds now because of the recession! Yes. That is, that Yes. is what brought it about er in Setting the stage for in one way, in in Although it hasn't it hasn't come to that in Germany, I mean we'll probably be the poor man of Europe at the moment aren't we? In this country? Ah but, I mean it's biting in Germany now because they've got all East Germans! That's yes, yes, that's true. Biting before that weren't it? Where Erm they've had to close down the spi ,and that. and of course, when, when they when This of course is exacerbated. but the going gets tough it's it's easy to blame minority groups and this is what happened before wasn't it? Like on the ruddy that's all they're doing now, bringing all these Turks and God knows what! Ha! I mean, even in France, and I mean, in fact, in fact East Germany, poor devils they in France it's more it's worse in in some respects because er it seems to be more powerful the erm the rate of you know, the feeling of . I mean what can you, what can we do? If, it's happening, I mean what was the Soviet Union I mean it's Well I said to Margaret, I wonder news on it it's death and destruction there isn't it? All these minority I wonder groups. with the Western Groups after the euphoria of saying oh there, well we've cracked it now! We've destroyed communism. Are they now regretting it? And, I don't To some degree. Well No, no I think they've And, and the fact that they don't know what's gonna happen, how to contain all this Well I think in some respects stress. they, they wanted the downfall of communism Oh they did want it! but nevertheless it's better the devil you know! But, having said that you know, that I should imagine that the military are regretting it. Well I mean, the military will definitely regretting it, in in the west Didn't actually want it to go this far. because it means a reduction in forces in in all these Yeah. countries erm, and as you say, I mean ha you know, whether they're American generals or or the Soviet generals, whatever er they're all, they're all feeling the pinch now because er Oh I didn't mean that, I mean At the same time it, I mean the countries wo , have been crippled by the the burden of er defence if you like and we'll call it defence. And they have! Erm, but in fact it's probably for some of the state that we're in now! But er I would I wouldn't sa , I wouldn't of said There's a price to pay for everything. that you see they have created the jobs! Yes yeah but I don't know, it seems crazy to me when they've Well that's false economy that! There's such you know sort of appalling need Yes, but that was the get, that was your get out! Or the or the er boost in the, in the economy you know but erm Yeah, but I don't think but I mean they were mo they were making Might work in our economy, but not in theirs I don't think! Well it hasn't! But instead Oh no! of getting on with the five years plans they've put too much effort into producing war machines! Well and this is it I mean, where we could afford it they couldn't! Well can we? Look at America! Well They've got greater means, I know No, they, they could of they could of afforded better than the Oh yeah! you know? Yeah. Only just. So, and unfortunately erm well I mean they, they were exploiting or they had they had the potential exploit more countries than Russia did. Oh course! That is er Oh yeah, they colonised all these places but it makes you wonder, you know, you see all this unemployment and of course this John Major's in his answer now is ooh well it's the same everywhe , it's not, not here, it's everywhere! They don't say why? Well it is. Yeah, but why? But Oh but I mean that is not the concern, and that is not the question,i the question is what are you going to do about it in our country? What are Exactly! you Mm. Exactly! But I mean the have an excuse don't they? Well that's that's it you know that er it's an excuse. I mean, it's a convenient excuse, that is Course it is! that . I mean I was reading in the paper the other day it was on about recycling Yes, just a please. And the different counties Say stop! and the way they've approached it and some Yep. of the more progressive ones, you know they've er addressed the problem of rubbish and recycling wo erm one spokesperson for somewhere like Milton Keynes, I think it was said there's you know, there's no money to made out of ri , recycling No. and yet he said Not at the moment. that they would save erm on the erm actual tipping of rubbish How isn't there any money because to be made out of recycling Well well this is what Well at the moment it's so dear well what he meant was to th , I mean he said they process it. we are not Well we are not dealing with anything that we cannot In the short term. sell. In Ah. other words they were selling glass, and they were selling metal back to whatever and manufacturers to re-use but in terms of collecting and the cost of collecting it all and and That's expensive! handling all this it's, yeah. The cost that they were having to bear were greater than what they were actually getting back on the sale of this stuff. But, at the same time the normal sort of refuse if you like, disposable was being reduced because That's right! these other items weren't in the normal refuse collection and therefore they were going to sort of reduce them from a weekly collection to a Well that's if fortnightly collection, so they would be saving in that Well that er But not saving to these that's if particular firms that that they want. that's if No. Mm. That is their own fault because according to, there was a programme on there and it was saying they, they must be selling it to these firms that recy , that use it Mm. they must be selling it Well they will do. them very cheap because it was sa , this programme was on about recycling No thanks. and it said about tin cans and aluminium and that and it was costing them less excuse me to use recycled you know er used aluminium Mm. and used steel cans and that it was costing them less to use that than it was to use Brand new stuff. yeah. Yeah. So, I mean to me, I don't know whether I'm right, but that my first thought is that they must be buying it very It's gotta be profitable they must be buying it very cheap then? Mm. Mm. So, so the people that are not making any money out of it by doing it are selling it to them very cheap so it is their own fault! I think initially er It's only it's been cheaper to now has got a cost more in the initial Well it does stages until it's sort of, set up, until everyone is sort of you know geared into doing this kind of you know, like all the glass goes here, all the metal goes here, all the goes there Well yes, because they're not and all the companies that are responsible for for re-using it and all the distribution network is set up for collecting an an sending it from here to there you know, once that network is going then surely Oh yes! it's gotta be useful because instead of going you know from one sort at one end and going out the other and never being ever seen again it's going That's right! in a circle and, and surely that's gotta be cheaper once a network is set up? And it's a, it's an ongoing thing Yeah! You know I mean, oh oh di you know I mean it's to theorise, I suppose but I mean all it takes really is to have three bins. Yeah. You have your paper you have your bottles you know alright initially as you say it take, it costs but To set it up it does , to set it up,yo you have you have, you'll have to have three, three what's his names? Three, three bin men to come and collect it. Mm. Or no, you have to have three containers. But they do it in Canada! Well this is what I'm saying! Yeah. But I mean Even even got one you see for plastic! but, but there well yo , you could have four, you could have as many as you like Mm. but I mean surely, in the long term Course! but that co idea he doesn't drink beer, so you can have his for Well no,but I mean like But that's the key word is the long term Ken! like you sell, you sell that back to them that that pays the man's wages that is doing it! Mm. Mm. But it's the short term isn't it, with them? They just thinking well we haven't got the machinery to cope with this! It's easier for us No the to buy the new raw material and process it Yeah I said and it ah Ah but but yeah, I know but the well this is the This is the way the government's gotta act now! Ah well, well this is it Well this is it it, it has to be done! They won't! Generated the This is the trouble It's a joke! this is the trouble with this country because it's has has I mean look at Germany! Yeah, but I mean they will make progress, I mean this colony And is would never Mm. advance! I mean that's why we lost our moto er motorcycle industry Yeah. it's why we've lost most of our industry because they won't, they won't invest in new machinery or mo , new methods! Modernisation. I mean they've Just won't look ahead! You see it's the same as they said on there we've had all these inventions and they get by our country. and they get, they get in this country and then they go and exploit them in another country! Mm. So where's the Computer's the finest example of that produced But in Manchester! Mm. This government says ooh we can't afford that, no, it's a it's a gimmick! The Yank says we will! Bingo! And look, this used to be We could of held them to ransom! one of the best education systems in the world! And I mean I know, it isn't now! won't be here now well you could sliding right I know! down the scale! Mm. We're terrible! We're way behind Germany, France you can only cut back Russia and prune back so much in the name of efficiency before sooner Well or later things su suffer! There was, there was a programme on Channel Four there to I was watching before I picked my book up and they had Conservative Labour bloke and the independent er Liberals and these were supposedly they have on on er Channel Four a a programme called Week in Politics anyway this night, this, tonight they were doing a a fu , they had a floating audience, supposedly a floating audience You mean, they were under water? flo ,fa floating vo er voters Oh! er until, until the end and they had a poll of er who who has been persuaded to vote for the three la , you know, what had they done to Oh they had to to say who they supported and vote for the three, that's right and there was one one put their hand up for he persuaded them that Ne , Neil Kinnock would be a good leader, that was it er so one put their hand up for him one put their hand up for Major and she had the cheek to say that that is only because I'm a Conservative! And it was supposed to be , if the audience was supposed to be voting and I mean but the quite the majority of them er put their hands up for Paddy Ashdown. Yeah he's a very persuasive character Well when and he wasn't on he wasn't on, but he he at the towards the end they gave the three of them thirty seconds to describe the go , you know, the qualities of of the Of a good leader. of of of er their leader Mm. and the one one for the Libs he only used twenty seconds, twenty two seconds! And he finished? And, you know he said I'm sure Paddy Ashdown would think that you could of found something else to use the other To say. eight seconds up ! But er but he ended up, you know as sure as they've asked er the something to say the show of hands, like he was er he was the one that the floating voters were Yeah. But I mean But only He, he looks a very persuasive kind of character doesn't he erm I mean he's, he's quite sort of erm well a nice person well he Yeah. seems to be! But er But you know Well see wha wha down there was a couple there in their leather jackets look, looked a cli couple you know, the boy and girl couple of yobbos! Looked a right couple of yobbos And er well what day is it like? Well he says er how could you vote for Kinnock he says because the press attacks him and he doesn't defend himself! But your dukes up Neil! You know! Yeah, well And this is the mentality of them! Childish! I mean ha when it comes down to it, at the end of the day today we we live in er a media orientated world don't we? We turn on the box Well and we we see what is fed to us there, we pick up , you pick up the you know, the comic strip papers you know,yo you see headlines there, most of it is is you know Tory sort of dominated. Orientated. But er that so it depends whether you, whether you actually think about what you're seeing and what you're reading and Well what you're hearing doesn't it? Well I mean, I I take the Express Mmmm. and they say that ad , it pays to advertise I mean, to me advertising has never done anything for me well I don't think it has anyway but if it pays to advertise and look at the number of people that read the Express What do you want Lucy? you know, the that would What? convert a lot of people if they Oh yes! definitely because it it is No! you know, I I I don't, I don't look at the first four pages in the Express cos that's No. all it is! It's running Labour down Yeah. Same old stuff! And yeah. Well in a and way how good John Major is and how good Mm. and the Tory, you know they're giving them victory because they they supposedly we're we're up to the, up to as many er we're level with the with the Labour party now. Mm. And they are, you know, this is a victory! Yeah it's pathetic! I I I think really they er they forget that that there's a quite a large number of the population, they do think about what's going on, and they're not all children and they're not and aren't all that easy easily persuaded. But, having said that there is but there are, but there as well! No but I mean,the there's but there's a lot of people, you see when you say they're not easily persuaded that are working class that are voting Tory and they're not easily persuaded they cha Well they did, I just changed their mind! Mm. Well having seen a little bit erm was on the other day and I I mean I I must admit I touch shut up you! Nothing to do with you! A lot of what's erm you know, going on now, I mean, is just gonna go off as far I'm concerned cos I mean I've already made up my mind. Yeah. I'm a loyal supporter! Well that's it! And that's it! But erm you know o , I mean it's, there's so much analysis and what not, I mean I I think most, most people must do the same a lot of them have made their minds up and the ones who haven't either don't really care No! or they're so serious about it that they'll probably be watching everything, you know, just to sort of make sure that they know everything about Yeah. every party! Yeah. And making sure I get the right one. But I think the majority of them just won't bother anyway, to watch No. they've already made their minds up and a and definitely a lot of people vote on on on basically the choice On the spur of the mom on the spur Well of the moment, on the day think well they've had long enough now we'll we'll have a switch you know Or or the they like the look of the bloke, they like his photograph and they'll go and vote for him! That's right. And I mean there's that been that much publicity about Neil Kinnock you know, or anti Neil Yeah. Kinnock publicity. But er, I mean a lot of people say ooh, you know, I wouldn't trust him with it! And they didn't really know anything about the blooming bloke you know! Well he's never been Of course not! in power before well It's only what they've read in the newspaper! Neither has blooming John Major you know! Neither has blooming Maggie Thatcher before she came in, you know! I mean it's Well I mean you've only got lo They'll be a first time for everything ! You've got to take the way her Wack her image changed Wack a wack a wack! over the years Mm, yeah. the voice the Mm. shape of the shape of her face and hair. In fact I think that Spitting Image dummy was more like her than she was! You you loo , you look Mhm. at the years how she changed, practically every year! Her image changed. Well it started to become like er A a little what do they call them? These dolls. Yeah. What do they call them? Barbie doll. Barbie doll and that's what she was. Well no, not as attractive as a Barbie doll! Well no, but But I'm but the style was there She,i it was it was becoming like a dictatorship! It was her at the helm Ooh well this is what it beca , it did And and th the so called democratic, you know, choice of all these poli , all these MP's and what not which would comprise parliament and government and head of the Tory party at the time you know i it really their voices on the, on the the cabinet you know, they were, they were just destroyed! Well, you said you know you, we were on about Germany and, and becoming you know could it happen again? If if she'd of had her way she would of been the dictator of this Yeah. country, and she would of been in power forever! Oh I know! You know that's, she would of been wanting to ma , make her life president or whatever it was! I think she would of done with the Que , er done away with the Queen to get Yes, I think there was a bit of competition on there wasn't Yeah. there? I'm convinced But she wouldould! Yeah, I mean If it meant her staying in power that, I mean she Well would of done it she would of got rid of them to make sure she she stayed there. Yes it came to er Are you tired? A fine state of affairs didn't it No, I'm alright Ken, yeah. with her even her own party giving Well her the heave-ho! Well this is it. You know, I mean tha She was they I mean she was go That's how it must be. she was going too far for them Well she must of been. well this is it I think she was beginning to endanger her chances of re-election and I think Yeah. they let her go on too long and it Well to be but er And er but they did let her go on too long! I mean it's turned into a bit of a joke now really Yes it has. hasn't it? You know, our policies are working, I mean after thirteen years Well they've had long enough to do it! And this recession that we've been coming out of for so many years now it's I mean it's just turned into a bit of a joke! They're all making money for themselves aren't they? That's why I'm suspicious Well of the Labour party! Well The Labour party? No, I don't The big shots you know! Money in the bank No I don't Well Whe whe when they're small they're Ken I, I but once they get a Well ah now what have I said to you ? Para power corrupts I know. Mm Mm, yes. And that's the way power corrupts. But, well it's what I've just said! Yeah but I mean That's true. you'd never agree with before! No you we , you was relating it to to power in this country to any country and saying Any country. it was exact, identical. Well it is. And that's what I disagreed with. It is. I I said It is you can't compare the ca , the power like just say in a place like Turkey which is absolutely rotten! They got no law at all, or very little with, with the Well it's corruption! Ooh yeah! I mean, if a little kid in the in the And that is, that is what in the in the playground er Well that's what it amounts to! You know It's corruption! coerces some kid into selling him his marbles, that's corruption isn't it? But there are levels aren't there? One one is more extreme than the other. So we've got corruption in us probably so it depends upon the degree Well, yes we have. but you don't expect to get out of the ruddy Aha. Socialist Party! Because Why not? Because I said to yo , I said to you that it was the same in Russia! And how much corruption have you discovered in the Socialist Party? The Labour Party? Have I discovered? You mean have I seen Well how much ? on the television Yeah. these people that Well what do you talk with two tongues and say Well what do you know about them that you say they've Yes. they've got er What do you base your i , your What happens when they retire? Well what happens when they retire? Do they end up working the way we've got to bloody work here on this tiny pension or the pension that they've earned as an MP Well have retired from the Labour Well alright Party. Harold Wilson, prime example Yeah. rich man! Lord Wilson Yeah. socialist, I mean Well how da , how do you know what ? They're supposed to be against all that aren't they? Wait a minute! How do you know he's a rich man and what do you class what do yo , what do you base in rich ? Well a man that's got more than one home for a start! Yeah. Well er Because that's erm You must have been rich then a couple of years ago? When you brought a second home! Now don't talk ru , you know what I'm on about! No, I don't, no! I don't mean a bloody home like that! No, Er, wait a minute Ray! He's he's, he's lead a public life Mm. so he can write he can write a few books, he can go out there and talk Mhm. So he earns money, is that a, is that a corruption of his job? No, well talking to earn money, no! Do you agree? Yo , I mean If he er, if he gets paid by It's the same the hour. It is the sa , it is the sa , it is the same as Maggie Thatcher going to America now Course it is! And she's Yeah. pa , and she's paid half a Well i million pounds for her Well tha that that is Yeah. worse isn't it? So I mean, er I dunno But it's it's the degree How can that how can that man as a socialist justify earning well I don't know what he gets, but we'll say he doesn't Well get as much as Thatcher, say he gets forty thousand Well no, I didn't know no you don't Oh, now wait a, wait a minute! Now I, I have said to, I have said to you He's a rich man that everybody and he shouldn't be! everybody should earn the same. Mm. But you all said that it depends on his skill or his what's his name Or how many kids he's got. If I've got twenty five kids and you've only got one yo , I need more than you! So how can you possibly all earn the same? Why not? Well you wouldn't have enough would you, to su sustain all those Yeah. kids? Why? You'd have to get enough to live on. I can't see that! I mean er No, I can't see the argument! Well, to me you shouldn't have twenty five kids anyway! Well that's dictatorship Because because it, I would have a dictatorship on that! I mean that's, I would have Well that's, alright well well that's control of the world population, I se I would limit to two children. I would er, have control of the That's another argument! world population. Well fair enough! But Yeah. that is another argument! It is, we're on the road . That is er, that would mu , that would be my first priority. Oh ! I thought your first one was everyone getting I'm not go the same pay! Yes, so everybody So would need the same pay. But no matter what you'd, you know at the end of the week or the year or whatever No, but I mean I mean there's all those people who have the same pay, that at the end of the year they would end up with different amounts because people would manage money differently Differently some would spend it Of course they would! as soon as they get it Oh yeah. some would go into hock and spend it before they get it before they got it yeah. some would save it, and be frugal! Alright, alright then Which is what the Tories want you see What I want I think the trouble is I want no, you're defending them! I won't give anybody any money you can go to the shop and buy what you basically need. You see yo No but we're devia your we're deviating on the subject well you did because your, straight away you go onto money which is our God isn't it? Well, no but you said it was corruption Yeah. and I've only yo mentioned, well you mentioned money because you mentioned Harold Wilson Mm. with two homes and you said the money they get! Yes. So you brought the subject of the money up! No, no Mm. but you're on about something else, you said the first thing I'd do, that's got nothing to do with Harold Wilson the first thing I if I were in power But there would which be like I Yeah. say, we're deviating on the Yeah. subject! no no no but I'm pa if So go on yo I were in power there wouldn't be any money no need for it! Then you Well I wouldn't have all I the arguments! I know that! So you wouldn't Yeah. say that at all! No. Yeah. And what would you do But in the case of these people that start off So why why should Fair do's they start off in University, clever blokes and a lot of them worked in the mines, Shinwells what's his name? Beven miners Just for money! Well I won't say Beven because it's a bloody shame what happened to him! But never the less a lot of them started off like that didn't they? Another one is Foot. Ah but er he And as they get into, as you say, power and I quite agree somebody has a talk with them so look here We know we know you're a socialist But you still earned a few bob to get on. But er, you you we're gonna make you a nice one and join the bloody club so you'll be an armchair socialist and we look after you and that's what they are! Callaghan is another example two or three homes big Jim with all his bloody money what does he care about working people? And this feller Kinnock's the same, you can see the style of them! I think he must be Bloody big cuffs!cufflinks! I think you I think you've been saying Ah well, no not Saville Row shirts! No, you're making him it's I think if you mistake, you're making a mistake there! as the leader of the Labour Party or the Liberal Party You have got to keep up with you've gotta keep up with to go image and how to be Yeah. a leader in this country! No, you haven't! You can't expect, yes you have! Foot never did! You have! Michael Foot? What did he, what where did it get him? Well you just said you just go you just said you've gotta give them a How long did it last? How long did it how long did it last? Are you, are telling are you telling me that you'd vote for somebody in rags on the television who promised you a better future? I did! What do you mean you did? Voted for Foot. Who did you sa , oh! You sod! You did not! And he was never in power anyway! He was, he was the Prime Minister! Oh he was Well! not! He was never the Prime He wasn't, Michael Foot? Oh I know he put in there. Oh no he He should of been. He's never been president of He was very outspoken he was a very outspoken He should of been! He was leader of the But the first bloody only the the way they should dress! Ah, yes well ah, that's got nothing to do with it! Oh! But now it has! I mean he's probably got more money than they've bloody got! The it's all a blind anyway those rags he goes round in! Duffel coat, he got he got censored There's because he wore a duffel coat instead Well it's like That man underneath a duffel coat What did Ken say about this chap from Vauxhalls? Convena did all his work and they asked him to go to London you know, there's some was on years ago so he goes to the headquarters and he said he just couldn't believe it, he turned on him and said you're a shallow bloody hypocrite he said! Those lads down there they're fighting living on their ruddy strike pay and look at you lot! He said they were there the whisky was flowing you know hypocrites! And he said, oh come on you're here have a bloody good Well time you know. on your argument then anybody who who works their way up through the ranks and gets to the top has gotta become corrupted! That's what you're saying, no ma Well if there i if there in a no matter who, no matter what ! If they're in a corrupt society and when they get to that position they they don't do anything about it and accept Well they it and take they don't the bribes, well yes I agree this is the Yeah. the Yeah. basis of the mafia isn't it? Ah, you see if if you don't, I mean it's not, it doesn't happen in, in every walk of life but in big business and in politics if you don't You have to modify your I'll tell you , I'll tell you how No, no if you don't tow the line Exactly! If you just don't if you'd be elected Yes and you don't modify you what happens? You don't get anywhere! You don't get elected which is what happened Well to the Labour government No last time! oh well, oh well apart apart from being No. elected fifty percent of the population apart from that wanted control on nuclear weapons, or wanted to abolish nuclear weapons but they the the Labour government didn't get in on that basis so they had to modify their and I mean as Well you can use that for any argument then But I mean but what what can't you? what I want Do everything the tories do because we're not gonna get in! Well Well well no I mean it's not Well that's what they've bloody done near enough! Well yeah! And another thing that I fifty thousand The, they it's a Mean time all the vil , all the mines are closing are they gonna say well yes well Well well we've gotta do that because be be being practical. Well I think it's a very being short sighted thing to do to erm Well I I think I think you'll find that well if Labour gets in I mean it's they will, they will scra , they would find that most of the I hope they'll rescind that. mos , they wo , they wouldn't rescind it. What the mines? Yes. They wouldn't close them. The closure of the mines. No! I think Well they can't close the ones that's already Don't you think so? gone in eight Oh! nineteen eighty one can they? They've Oh I know! gone! Closed! Well Yeah but I'm, I I know I don't Well some of them certainly And they closed one the other week that's flooded now will definitely so that's Yeah. I don't think that this They, they won't they they wouldn't can't rescind that! they wouldn't bring But I money on the mining And that goes for a lot of businesses! I mean, there's enough coal in the United Kingdom to last for another two hundred years! Yeah! And that could possibly be the only, and ah I mean it's it's a Ah but it's a dirty fuel to use at the moment but they're all, there are means being developed even now on Well I've no doubt in twenty I mean years time the tories will re-open them much it's it's far at at great cost to us! Ah but you see Nothing to stop them! that it's Well very short sighted to get rid of that now! I mean, we're buying coal which is subsidised abroad so therefore it's cheaper for us to buy it and bring it in, but what happens when all, all our home supplies have dried up I know I know and we can't them any more? Well You know we , very well what'll but what happen happen! When, when that market's been pruned alright down and the only what happen place you can get it but the price is ! What happened in nineteen eighty one? They're so short sighted! What did Bob say about the miners? When, you know when that strike was on but it's like a lot of people What did he say about the Ooh that teachers? bloody lot of, bloody lot of clowns! Arthur Scargill bloody clown! Now Yeah. those fellers fought to keep those mines open and they got one of lot miners divided and said oh bugger them! The fellers in the Midlands was it? Yeah. Yo er Notin Yes. Nottingham round there? St. Helens Ooh bloody no Wa wa wa wa wa wa wa and they ploughed twenty five million into their mines and said your jobs are guaranteed now fore , forget it you know, you're alright for thirty years what . Now they're closing the bloody things! Now, you know we sho something should of happened then they should of prolonged that strike to destroy these buggers and said no you're not gonna close them! But the peop lot of people agreed with it! Well of course! They said they weren't being But realistic! what do they do, they divide and conquer Ray! Yeah but why should bloody intelligent people go along with it Ken? That's what gets my plate! Because they , because the intelligent people weren't involved! No I mean, I'm talking about the people who are not actually er, you know I i if concerned directly but give But their approval for these But they're people. they're not involved, the people the people that give their approval are the people that want it! And I mean er, and Yeah but I mean and also they, they get the masses on their side by the media! I know! The same as they're Exactly! doing now with the I mean what paper have you got? I know, well there you are! A Labour paper! This is what terrifies me! And what's, what's er what's your chance? The Mirror. Where's that ball gone? Yes. Bring that ball here! You got no bloody chance! But as I say, people believe everything, it's gospel! And you never hear the Labour party criticising. You know, but they should be criticised out of hand what's going on in this country but they bloody don't! Well when when if if the Labour party criticised and they do criticise Oh they criticise Ken, yeah. The only time that you will hear about it is whe , if you have the television on and you see it happening on the parliament and on your papers. Well you read your paper don't you? And we get a middle of the road one which is the Observer We we'll watch which is, they get some they do some pretty good But how often do the I mean, they they don't give you they don't give you every detail that's gone on all week! Oh no they're or there's certain ar they only pick a certain subject or Yes. whatever that's been thrashed. As you say , we'll see. Well he's gone on seven days of the week complaining about so and so we'll just narrow that down to one article about his his complaint that they may just make a little note he's complained seven times about this! So you see a little article That's right. he's not complaining! Yeah, but I mean basic things Ken, we'll take for example the low wages Yeah. we, we haven't got one now, they got one in Germany, they got one in France I in Yes. Italy. Well yes. Oh there we go, that was mistake number one George dear have you read the er holiday page at all? No not yet, er only about France, and I told you about Oh I'm not sure the Oh dear places you can go to Mm which is a fallacy I thought it was Barry there, he looked a bit like him. No he's trying to get up, get down naughty boy. E T get down, down. Down there, there's a good boy If you tell him sternly, he does understand the tone of your voice if he goes off and sulks for a while, well so be it you'll have to sulk till you get used to it, there you are. in the U K mm, yeah, all looks very nice, camping Joking aren't you camping? Well that's just what it looks like here you just eating al fresco and going back up to the chateau at a night Oh we're back in France again are we? Mm Yes well Oh I see, yeah, yes it's Mm It's not a cheap holiday by the time we get, get down there your petrol Well for us I mean it's and then the ferry across it's not so bad for somebody living on the south coast Yes but er, as you say erm, really it's such a long journey that you need a breather before you need to start to cross the channel Oh yes I think so a good thing you're inviting Ken didn't I to come with us? Yes I did mentioned it erm Did you to Ken? Well you were there weren't you too? I just mentioned it in passing and let the conversation carried on about something else so I, I don't know whether We didn't come into it Well, I mean we just said well that's, you know, an expensive place for a holiday by the sound of it, but erm we hadn't got into any details. Well this was erm Bulgaria Yes, yes Mm but er so I, I don't know if he'd be interested in. I certainly wouldn't coach it so I think you would be creased by the time you got there in two days. Yeah but of course if you were being serious you'd have to ask him directly wouldn't you? Oh yes, yeah, well I, I, I think we'd have to to begin with to er get something a bit more concrete, you know, about time, time Yeah cost and what not, and then you know when we've decided I mean I'm not particularly bothered whether comes along or not, but I just thought it might be nice to to give him a break away from home and he won't go on his Well I mean you're only doing it for him really aren't you, that's the idea was to help him Well this is it, he won't go on his own will he? But the only other thing perhaps he'll go with one of the kids, that's a possibility Yeah possibly but I don't think they, do, they don't, I mean they, they lived in Germany for a while haven't they, so, I don't think, oh no, didn't they go to Cyprus one year Pete and Colin or am I dreaming? Italy Did they? Yes Florentine or near Venice That was when he was posted in Germany wasn't it they went from there Yes that's right, yeah, but whether they I suppose to be in a position to What they got afford a holiday now, I mean now they've taken on a mortgage Yes that's a point so, you know that's a point, yeah so unless erm even if we tell us we went away for the weekend we could ask him along couldn't we? Well that's true, yes, yes, I mean that's the lakes, it's lovely up there isn't it? And it's only an hour or so away, so perhaps you should say that get a weekend in I wonder where there is a cheap place to where you can old furniture. Somewhere where you, where you can go, where you can offer to do the washing up for that afternoon if you get bored No I don't mean that I mean, I, we can find old shops that, are not fully conversant with the modern day prices of furniture Oh no all furniture you've got no chance mm. No I mean, what is he, different in there, operating in, especially in the what were the eastern country, erm standard of living is Oh there yes, no I meant in this country Not on par with ours is it? I don't think, I don't think there's anywhere left now, there might be somewhere but it'll be hard to find. Have you noticed all these holidays in Italy all Tuscany, you never see any A lot, yeah from southern Italy at all do you? Oh you see a lot of them from erm Oh I mean I know you can get the brochures, but in the papers there's paediatric coast don't you? farmhouse in Tuscany, rows and rows of them. You see them for Rome don't you? Not very often, not in here Is it tours? Not very often, not really Oh I mean the, the favoured place for the holiday makers is on er on the coast that was er Gisebelle and erm mm, what's the other one? Catonica Is it Rimini? Rimini, Catonica all on the coast, which is er the Black Polish isn't it? yeah mm there's a photograph that was in erm Karen's Radio Times, those two girls erm going on a diet. Oh yes the Erm the very big lady er, yes, yes, forty minutes on er B B C, have her stomach stapled Gosh Sounds drastic doesn't it? does it literally staple the stomach on the outside or does it Well it, according to what I read before, they say they staple the stomach down to the size of er, of a tea spoon, so presumably she, her stomach must only receive, she must of been eating twenty four hours a day, you know, to keep they, she didn't lose any weight, the other girl did, but er But I still like either that or, or the capacity re for your stomach expanding is, is er incredible because er, she still, you know she still doesn't lose weight I still like to know how they staple it. Yeah yes, I don't think you er you can measure I don't know, I mean if they staple it they close it off, er It must be an operation or Oh eh, just to staple have a another operation lost twelve stone, god it's like having, losing another person isn't it? Oh I see so it is a case of open you up and putting, inserting these staples must be Mm she was, what, what are you doing? Stop it sounds a bit drastic Said she, she's going in for her fourth operation presumably to have this stapling done again, she says I believe that she'd be far more counsellor, I, I would of thought she, she would of had counselling anyway before they go to stage of operating, surely, I mean, er don't they look in into sort of psychological aspects of it, it's usually a On the concept yep more than just physical reason I, I mean a lot of people are grossly overweight they, you know, people usually say oh it's the but now apparently in most cases it's very rare with that so it's gotta be too much eating and why do people over eat That's right it's usually too much eating or lack of exercise you know, I mean, there must be compensation for something mustn't there? Yes it's er I must record that Wildlife on One on er, tomorrow night, so I'm in Wales Oh yes Have you read any of your letters about the poems in last week's Observer? No They're not very flattering they didn't er, you weren't rated very highly I'm afraid I think er you tried to get away from the traditional type of Oh I see these one that they send in Mm Yes I er by the thousands I don't go a lot on them myself Oh poetry some of those poems that Bon had in her Touchstones book, especially the ones, the war, about the war, I read some of those and it made me cry, it was so sad. Oh the, the er the ones by erm what's name about the gas and that Oh to be honest I can't remember the Mm, very poignant Mm, but er anti war what was the one about the erm oh it was about the assembling of the gun Oh yes, oh do you remember that? And it's all about the parts naming oh naming the parts That's right yes and er Oh yes that one's come back to me that one now Mm horrible. There's a chap going on about the, the fake and the furniture of these two chairs Mm which are supposed to be erm Come here seventeenth century come here scallywag They said to this, the er, the shape of the stretchers going from side to side where you, where you can put your feet usually Mm you've got all this wear on them you see and the bow of these stretchers said that no one would a able to get their feet on and the guy that's faked it has done all this as he thought, authenticate it What, what they call it, stressing it don't they? Stressing it, yeah stressing it Mm and er it would of been impossible to rest your feet on the rail them performing the most uncomfortable contortionist, it says here oh Mm but did it look authentic with the thing, I mean not to the extent of Well I mean to the untrained eye with a , this guy was suspicious when he saw all this cracked varnish Yeah which it turned out to be wax Oh to simulate old varnish you see? Oh So then he started looking Yeah They've got a way of measuring wear on er stretchers Yeah I mean it's, it's so clever really isn't it how, how they do sort of er fake furniture like that. I mean to my mind you might just as well spend your money on, what are you doing idiot, on a well made piece of furniture today like some of those we've seen in, in beautifully made erm, I mean they're brand new but they will be antiques I suppose in the future you know for your, for your grandchildren sort of thing, but er I mean you can't possibly think what's things that are in there, it's astronomical. Mm, quite expensive as you say Mm, you silly dog, what are you doing, what are you doing, oh dear, oh dear, oh dear, right, right, then, yeah, yeah, yeah, get him, right oh he said that heaven Mm yeah, you do huh, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow,Where's Muffin, behind the settee? Yes mm Did you read this erm review about Ruby Wax? No I haven't read that yet She's is a, quite a character actually, mind you she does er, it looks like one of those programmes you know er, when you don't want to be sitting in the front row, if she's going to Mm pick on you single, single you out for attention she say erm,Miss Wax who likes to think of herself now principally as a writer,the comic talents of this calendar who needs laxative. Come on E T, come on babe, come on, do you want to go out? Go out? Wait a sec, let me get my yeah wait a sec, let me get my coat ah, down stay down, good boy come on, OK, OK, you're going now, yes . Taking for walkies Margaret. Mm, mm, yes Are you coming? Well if I take him you can do the veg if you like get down I see, I'd just thought you'd might like to go. Well I will but I doubt this, oh god I've got heap of things to do Right lassie You wanna go to the shops now or what? You're going are you? Yes What's that? Do you need to come or Well, I think all I need is bread really isn't it? So I Mm I'll keep an eye, spend your money. E T won't hurt you. Hello there, this guy is that nervous honestly, he loves other dogs, but er, they seem to frightened him, you know, he's a, till he gE Ts to know them then his OK, you know? E T, come on, he's only young your chap isn't he? Yeah Yeah I've got two of them, the other one's er cut himself on a bottle this morning, he's been in the vE T all day, he's just had Oh no his leg stitched up. Fixed him up alright? Yeah. Mm, how'd he manage that? I don't know he just somebody must of They just left a broken bottle clean cut right down the bone Oh god so, he's out of commission for a couple of weeks. Yes, it's er infection really isn't it? Yes And if he's anything like this guy he's all go Oh yes he's just like him E T will you give over, come on You don't lE T them do you? It's a bit He was ill treated you know, and he was Yeah we got him from the rescue, animal rescue you know Oh yeah so he's a pa , he's a bag of nerves really, but er, most of the time he's great, but,I think your, your one's a bit too boisterous for him Well enough. Take care anyway,come on E T That's right, yeah, yeah. Oh he said er Oh that's not so bad you see I've been on holiday all last week Oh, where you been? I haven't been away, but I've been off work like Oh just, oh I see so er holiday at home? Yeah called me in two days so they gave me today and tomorrow off as well, so it's sort of gone longer than I expected you know? Mm, mm I'm off tomorrow as well. Well it's always nice to be at home isn't it? Please yourself Get down, get down oh yeah, yeah. I got through quite a few bits and pieces that was Have you? All the jobs you've been meaning to do Yeah, yeah Yes I know Hello there Good afternoon how's the family? Abnormal Yeah At one time we couldn't get Jessy to talk, he'd got a little girl with er and I noticed the little girl with her, yes. She waved as she came towards me and she said oh can't stop today Huh said I've got to get this one back for her mum or whatever said I'm in a hurry then I met some guy on the field, talking to him and er Who you don't know from Adam A spaniel which was off the lead, covered in mud a young one and of course these, this fellow went straight up to it E T Off the lead like? Off the lead and it was er, so boisterous up and down like this, well he didn't like it straight away he got the old aggro blade up his back about two inches wide then he was watching him like this then he ran Away from it or ran away from it you see and then when he came back he came to us and he growled a few times at it, so, but erm, backed off you know I said he he doesn't mean any harm I said but he's a bit nervous, hoping to god he didn't bite the, bite the other one Spaniel , yeah. he said in all that, we got two he said the other one cut itself badly this morning on er a piece of glass obvious he said managed to come back to me you know being on a lead all his leg was cut so he sort of been down to the vet and had two stitches Stitches so he said I've had to, they'd have to keep him in for ten days or more you know Mm stop him getting dirt keep going in it or whatever Yeah Yeah , erm, it's worth waiting to I saw Mr Bentley Mm. and er he hasn't got any stuff there of course No. but er, he said oh try the guy Try? the chap in Mold, whatever his name is Robert . I he said, he's an old type chemist he said just mention my name he said he perhaps fix you up with small quantities or try this other place in Wrexham he said they, chemist he said but they do wholesale work as well Mm. so, and then he was going on about the work he's doing on the Yes I thought he probably would. You were nearly at the end of the tape as well weren't you? I thought afterwards I bet that tape would run out when you're talking to and won't be able to turn it over. Mm, I don't think so but er he's had an awful struggle with that because he said Buckley's one of the worse places and no interest at all Nobody's interested no, it's a shame said er , they said Wrexham they've got two or three you know mu museums for, and that different halls he said er Well, there was talk about er getting the old hall down in the old street community centre, not the, the Yes What is it? What do they call it that hall? Hawkesbury hall Hawkesbury hall, yes by the school, yeah but I mean it's, it's still a sound building, I mean it could be Well it's been no, no, it's, it's condemned at the moment it's not safe. Is it? Oh yeah, you're not allowed to go in it Oh oh they've just locked but er locked it up because er he said they've er So did she say she could get some? Or Said she'll ask, said she knows she's got giving an errand to take out to the place you know because er if Well it's dangerous stuff to handle I suppose Mm but as you say wanted a tiny amount anyway so it's a joke isn't it? you know Mm several of us at college oh well she'll know by tomorrow night, you could her a call you would think tell me that much Which pub? at the college? well yes it's only a small amount for you, but er how many students are there? Well that's the thing yeah You multiple that by getting in a little bit however many there are There's about six I think Mm, even so I mean he, he's still got to buy it ain't he? Even so, yeah So er Oh they've probably got this much you know mm, I mean has he recommended that you use that he, he got or are you Oh I just taken it in out of the book? No that's what you've gotta, you, he showed us Oh said the stuff you're using is Rubbish old fashioned he says, it's got linseed oil in it he said, how'd you get it off? Mm You know that was the trouble you had with that table top, do you remember doing that polishing? And that, and this, you kept getting this er Oh no you, you can use this, but you oil through don't use that for polish you use a special oil, but he says don't even use that. Oh His brief seems to be, put as little french polish on as you can Mm put, and then wax you see, now this is what we haven't seen yet So just use wax to build up the polish waxing to, well not necessary to build it up, cos you, you've got this sealer on first you see Mm but you can that's what he does, but, if he want, I don't know, he have to Yeah sort of thing, so I have heard you say only three is that the number of posts they put in? That's already done innit? Well, cos with him being on night, I don't suppose he got up till about He started just after me, yeah one o'clock, yeah, there, and there were huge holes in the I mean you, you ask him if he'd erm arranged for a cement mixer and he said oh no he didn't want to bother, but I thought afterwards that'll be each one of those holes, he He says oh a ton what are we going to do with the yes or well that's right, in fact he might even need more sand he will but I bet one of those holes will take a whole wheelbarrow full of that Oh easily concrete and that's got to be one mix each time isn't it? Because what I used to do is throw the bricks in and concrete and water And water erm, no I mean apart from the concrete it helps to fill the hole Yes so if you just put the well the sand and gravel and the concrete as you say a barrow load goes nowhere Yeah I mean, huh, they never get blown over, but er, it's a lot of work isn't it? Where's little tiddly gone? Where is he by the way? Erm I said to you he's on the settee Hello, hello, hello if he's on there just shout at him will you because oh he's in here he's by the radiator aren't you beaut? He's a beauty babe, oh, rascal aren't you? Would give you that continuous conversation, erm where is, is life is it's surprising how much time you do have to put into it. I mean it surprised me I thought oh yes one and a half tapes a day, yeah, it's, it's a doddle, but erm, not, not only have you got to know how it functions, but you've got to know, know you've got to fill in your, your document Yeah to I mean ideally, ideally it'll be better to fill it in as you go along Personally I would of Well of course that's what vitamin C is isn't it? Well acetic acid is you know the chemical you know, it's got to be three third, er thirty three percent you see Oh which the vinegar's only about two percent probably that oh my god, well that's the stripper then really isn't it? You're only, you only Well you only put putting that much in Oh in this, in like a pint Mm, so you only want a small amount then really don't you? That's the trouble, I don't need a ruddy gallon Mm and the other of course is the eight eighty ammonia which is only half of five mil, two and a half mil teaspoon. Which chemist did you go to? Bob's Oh, and neither of them, no E T will you stop it you two, you see Aye get in your basket this minute I thought, I thought the other one had got it go on , go on. When you think of it, these chemists to date, no wonder their wives are on a low wage and the moaning all the time because they're not bloody chemists, they're just getting pills out of a box Yeah, that's right , yes, yeah you don't see erm doing this but, well after that, I mean and er, well years ago they had all these bottle of potions on the back shelf I suppose they were mixing up all the time, it's all antibiotics now and isn't it tablets or Mm bottles of already, ready mix There's a jar already done, you just pour it in Yeah, I suppose and mostly to erm, medicines are, are in tablet form aren't they? You know you don't get that many liquids it's usually for children isn't it? Ninety percent probably The erm you get The only liquid you get are probably cough medicines and stuff like that and Yeah which are all, er what they called? I bet they don't dispense much of that now because most people buy it over the counter don't they? Oh their own, yes I mean you're not going to spend three pound forty on a prescription if you can get a bottle for about one pound fifty so where you do it so well where you gonna go for that? Where else can you try? Er well I was gonna ask for when he comes, gonna ask or ask At the college do you mean? They seem to know about it, the ones who live in that area and the chemist Mm he's an old fashioned type Well why don't you try Mr Bentley I mean He's bloody finished now Well the shop's closed, but erm, he might be able to tell you somewhere nearer than to get it, I mean he's very obliging. He lives over the shop still doesn't he? Or at the back of the shop. He's a proper character isn't he? Mm But erm he might be able to er oblige you, he was certainly one of the last of the old breed of chemists I think a tissue in machine, bits dropping in and out Look in the pockets you great pi , oh I think there's probably one inside a pillow case knowing you Oh jesus, Maggots I caught a few there might be a fiver in one of them You've got no chance of that Hey did you know this Yes oh god Muffin you're not going out again you're covered in mud. I suppose they get fed up stuck in all the time, don't they? Yeah, and they're only out for a few minutes and they're fed up out there as well, and backwards and forwards like a fiddlers elbow go on I want to put those lupins in today, somewhere never mind, no, you're not having any more biscuits you Right I erm, I see it's ten past eleven, I want to get this ball washed, so, er, let them go in the wash Right I'm going to work in the workshop I'll tell you what, I get the erm, I get the battery of the, the other one, you can try it. You want to try it don't you if you're going to have it? Well this is it, it might be knackered now those two Has he been in the, in the loft in the workshop? Or No. Well you, it's not corroded or anything is it? Let's turn that down Can't turn it out. Power isn't it? Yes, but you won't get the same connections will you? I don't know Use your Fantastic that pause I'm looking for something somewhere Yes, well it appears to be working, but whether it's working correctly I don't know oh Ray, there is provision here for the headphones, you, you said are you supposed to use headphones with it, mind you it sounds pretty audible anyway, I don't think you need headphones, I mean I'm not sure there's a No See how she goes. Erm Thing is I've got to try by turning those volts down on some of them Yeah it's just that find out if there's any nails in the, in the wood. Possibly have stones You're not likely to get stones em embedded in the Oh I mean whether, whether that one is, is good enough for enough Mm, and it the nails in the wood that's all Oh yes it's, it's, how long ago was it when Robin bought that? Eleven or twelve wasn't he? Near that Say this er I think mm Have you actually got a plan drawn up with measurements, devised to the top and the base as well or are you going to do that when you I got the height of the base, you've seen that yes, yes Use that for the base obviously Muffin be quiet, what the devil's wrong with him? it's that much bigger so, you know just see how the top one goes and then I can copy that to the bottom Yeah, well you're going to do the base of it bigger aren't you? Yes Erm er the only, I'm not quite sure yet how the sides are going to and the door , the glass door he wanted it erm like the lead glass, oh similar to these Yes I know he wants it erm you know glazing bars Mm there's no way we could use it either of those, panels that were the glass panels that we've got in the garage, no, separate them, I mean it, they're not, they're not solid glass, they're two panes, which could be separated whether of ingenuity and What re-cut you mean? Well no not, not, well we could get them, I never thought of that Cut them they wouldn't be the exact size yes, ah that's a point now, I could take them down to erm, what's his name down the road and ask him, he's very obliging, ask him to cut them I don't know it depends er I was just thinking rather than having plain which you'd have to pay for anyway a plain piece of glass and, and er putting lead on it yourself I think that's a brilliant idea that. Well the idea is, is it's not so much the lead it suppose to be the bars, I don't know what they look like without old, old er it's a diamond , it's a diamond pattern isn't it for Yeah as opposed to the, but, but some cupboard doors are diamond pattern, Muffin will you be quiet have we any more bones cooked for them or have they had them all? No there's some there Cooked? oh that's what I mean, erm, well listen we'd better try and just, practice somehow and see erm what do you erm Are you gonna left that battery on well, well only temporarily, I only want this it's alright it's just this unit thing, when connected to right erm, just erm It just drops in there doesn't it, hanging oh I would of thought there was a rest for it surely, no? Do you think so? Just down the bottom Just down the bottom Right what you're going to have to do is erm Get a piece of wood with a nail in it Yeah, yeah I tell you what get a hold of that and put something underneath it. I don't know, it don't seem to react to that, that's a bit, mind you there again there's only going to be that there isn't it? Er, well, put it on the floor Go in your basket go on Yes, I cannot give it much more re-allocated, I might be able to get the two sides on, but I'll need more, obvious have some more wide bolts for the er top and the bottom So er, what you actually got to have it cut now, what have you? Those four Mm to that section of the oh these are about two inch are they or some, didn't say it wouldn't split in half went for it and Twelve inches across are they? That way They seemed quite wide to me when they were leaning against the wall. Wouldn't Sue do them? She hasn't got a hasn't she? I bet she had, I bet she had er no I know she's got a You really want one with a three I thought she had a band saw no I was gonna say you wobbling all over the place aren't you? And what about Duckman Peters wouldn't they do it for you? Er, mm, the other time I took stuff down there huge, to that their costs mm I'll have to pay mm you've got to pay for the teeth and the saw thirty pound a tooth Yeah, god worse than erm mm, how many have you got to now cut? and you mean to tell me with all that equipment the machine that they've got at the college, you couldn't get it done there? I haven't got anything that deep, the only goes to about five inches What can you do, can you do half at a time, can you No Why? at one time you could of done, but now, you've got to take the guards off To reverse them and turn it over Well I don't see how, all you've got to do is turn it upside down, you could still run it through the same way To make your first cut Yeah you have to take the guard off and the knife at the back of the saw, they, it is a bit dangerous, erm where's the guard goes at the top Mm just wouldn't go in would it, unless it's being stood right down Mm cut turn half way, the first cut, then turn it over with, you've got to have all the, just got a bit of the bare blade on the bench you see Yeah without a guard on it without a guard and they won't mm, mm allow that on this stand No I can understand that I suppose but there again it's only hand feed, you've, you got to have a, a machine that can feed on to take this tubing Something to grip it, mm We would have to like pull the wood through you see what about that erm, what about that other place that er timber place on the way to Kilkern erm we went there, you, oh you went in to ask about some walnut, do you remember when er Well er that's the same, that would be worth thinking this you know don't think you'd be very happy you know I mean you wouldn't wanna pay no be only worth a fiver to cut it, to them it's not worth Damaging them, saw, mm Well at least we've had a look at the whether we right OK, so we've eliminated all that have we? Well I mean What are you gonna do? I don't know It's impossible to do by hand No not impossible with a good saw Yeah and about ten irish navvies One down below and one above huh mm Try to get some er old door casings rip down from me you know, now, I was thinking of going to North Wales but I know what they'd say cos it, the ones that I got from our Rob's you know the they're quite clean but of course they've had nails in the, you know, the head like I made the cab some cabinets you know. I want them split down that road Which way? On the deep Oh on the deep two or three gorges Oh you want to fetch it down to a board technic That's so I can get two out of the one you know for the sides, erm, sides and Oh you want them to deep, deep, deep I don't think I'm gonna get that much joy myself, cos their reluctant aren't they to do anything that's not new. I thought there might be somewhere where they'd have an old circular saw you know, probably got a bit more chance with help, but they do a bit of rough cutting do you know what I mean? Yeah, but you won't get two out of it will you? But Well they're only for sides, you know, I'm, I'm doing them like er I the sides are coming out er like this you see those, those are already you know like that their fortunate with those I, I like them but, but I haven't got enough you see Yeah but er you won't get two that size will you? You reckon not, not with the cut, it's, well not that I know it's, it's got two it is a good er about one and five eighths Oh I say, yeah, you, well, you'll get one, you'll get a second one there, full one there Get a full one, get it doesn't matter really and I get one that width out of Yeah, yeah here you see and it'll all be joined up. It's, it's a band saw really that you want to put down Mm, they're not really safe Yeah, a band saw are you now are you? I got the old metal detected on, but, of course it could always be a bit of grit in it couldn't it Yeah or something like that. I know they don't like it No, er, no especially with a band saw, cos Oh hello Hello Margaret, well twenty years ago and, and, and they really had to and the whole band saw gotta to be resharpened he said and they go to a place in Most of them don't do their own now do they? No We used to have a shop you know, a saw doctor shop I when I had the time, did them all tension and set, you know, but erm, as you say now, they probably cost you about fifty pound a go every time they go away Yeah it's a I don't fancy doing by hand Well, even that little one of mine No I mean even with a hand saw, you know, I've done it before You had to wait, wait about twenty eight before you went on top I believe I don't know Yes, yes, oh yes and er all his brothers ev , every one of them went, they served their time and and er, it was er, the others were by having the lads and getting the trees down, er the extra wood that they got out of the er, out of the tree they lost so many with, with the thickness of the blade Oh I see, yes, yes, yeah, yeah that's right, yeah I think bloody hell, that must of been hard work that, they must of been at it all day Yeah, yeah How did they keep, how did they stop the flaming thing from snaking them all, you know? I don't know It must of had a good iron in it. Must of had terrific arms on them, oh dear me Yeah and I used to see them many a times in and what they'd leave them to what, then to, to dry wouldn't they at least? Oh I, yeah They'd take a long time to dry wouldn't they, then, on the sticks and that stacks of it and my father was in the woods before the war and they, he, he looked after the woods and cut the trees down and everything and then they were sent to Oh no, slowly, dried slowly you see Slowly to dry it was always as, as he went up to about a for pupation, yeah I'd like to seen how they did the, the ribbon book out of the heart Oh yes used to do a lot of drawer bottoms out of it yes must of had a knife or something to it, sliced wasn't it? Mind you I'm going, I've got a pub Nice to see there, there was a certain way of cutting the tree this is going back to get the figure into it I, a cut on the diagonal Yes you see, a diagonal, the raise so you've got a lovely figure in the, on the oak, Yeah but expensive that was yeah that's right cutting waste with it, as I say the ribbon stuff it must it, the georgian furniture you usually see that in Yeah this wide drawer bottoms you know, beautiful oak that's been sliced Yeah because that, presumably the heart was easier to cut, I don't know, very hard I wouldn't of thought so, it was I wouldn't of thought so the I'll have to find out of this where, where I found more so were that's the oldest part isn't it? That's the oldest part That's right on the knife and the er whether the grain was straighter, maybe that was the answer and the awkward thing was to hack a wood in the centre Yeah that's right, yeah, yeah An American oak is not too bad But the English you can end up doing a lot of scrapping for your finish Mm and it's just only because of the climate, there's er Cold weather, the, oh, is that what it was? That's right, yeah, he's, he's Mm, mm, funny there was a lad here this chap was here last week he bought this pine table up, got his key, and he'd been working for three years in Norway Oh yeah as a joiner Yeah and he was saying, told me some of the different names, you know, other than pine, I suppose their name for whatever these pines were, the timber there was beautiful Yeah the er all the knots, very few knots, just lovely yellow pine and er and they make all their furniture out of these pieces, so, he said that's what set me off on making furniture he said say that the cost of living there tremendous, tremendous ten years ago now they took out these tremendous mortgages because their wages had trebled, it, it about a ten year period, you know when the boom was on Yeah a few years ago, and he said er there was a lot of repossessions there. It's happening everywhere you see. You could buy a house very cheaply then, but er we, we didn't know what was going to happen that's not all you can do now is blame the Labour Party, it's incredible now. One of them said er when they start bringing the yes, yes that's right, lower lowering the taxes Everybody come here, this is the place to run a big business Yeah cheap labour Yeah you can fiddle all you want, get away with it, er I Well Nor you can't help me on this me old son Er it's a shame really, no he bought about erm I'm not even gonna volunteer to do about erm ten of these and then the head So apart from those three we said what else is there Ma No, well he's got a catalogue and we can send No, that, that catalogue he had I rang them and he sent me one Beeswax was it? Pure beeswax, what else? I bet that was a It was pure restoration materials Yes I've forgotten now I'm sure that's where he said he got it from the wax He said he got his waxes fifteen years ago and he's still using them Oh I think he gets all his stuff from that guy at, he got the brochure didn't he from somewhere up North? Yes, well Molly's just said she's rung them Well yeah, well I've got the brochure Oh I rang them up, it's, it's Bolton, but they don't do wax, they do all the other waxes Bury isn't it? Well I'd try Time and Bury the one? They caught , I don't, yeah actually the address I had Yes. Oh well I'll, I'll look, I'll ring I didn't actually ring I'll find out anyway them up and ask them and actually you know this Time Chemicals, they, they deliver you know, they come here with the stuff. Do they? Just ring them up, oh yeah, they go anywhere. What is the recipe I Bury ,, Bury Mm That's a good one isn't it, dear me, that's er Oh no, but, they, they will post it Post it, but then they're gonna charge aren't they? Oh yeah VAT and for a small amount it's not worth it really One of the dogs gone down there? I am sick and tired of picking up the mud Hello Ken Oh, we're trying to see if any pick up the nails in the wall, you know those boards trying to get them split down you see to make some, you know, shelves and that No, not really Does it work? It's got the battery in it Well I'm not sure really it didn't seem to go to good on the cast iron nails you know the long ones Yeah It's alright on the on the erm Well I don't know until the, when it comes to college you've got a hand one That's what I was gonna say Yeah it's a, it must be a sensitive one you see but er Yeah But erm, not reliable enough on that anyway So anyway Norm mentioned about going to this one at erm Old Tammy, that one on the Old Road Yeah he said try there, they've got some old wood he said, well perhaps they're used to cutting all stuff Oh oh dear then you will be whether you'll get that rate You're not very choosy money for them sort of things Yeah that's the way I look at it. There's no other way No, no, no, he does so many days Ken Is he full time or what? What? Is who full time? He can't be full time otherwise he wouldn't have enough to do would he? I don't know perhaps he does, I don't actually know Ken, I thought the way he was talking though that this chap No, it's, it's so many days that they work innit? had actually taken him on that he used to know years ago and had finished the Oh he's finished the I know it's a couple of years ago before he came here Oh but this chap he's known for years mention the name he gave him a job, er erm, but I mean I, I was given to believe he was full time he never said oh it's so many days cost I think that Let's have a look Now there's this place up, remember that French polish it's got a big order right, erm , where's this beeswax? They're all in one together er It's the same one, is it, are the, is that an update? That's the different prices Oh these are, I see, yes, yes, yes Brunches, no, ah it'd be a That's three seventy eight for five hundred grammes, and five hundred grammes is just over a pound. Five oh, oh that's not bad. It is low, it's a pound and a tenth It can't be right fourteen pound a pound can it? That's wrong A kilo's five fifty Perhaps he meant five hundred pounds you think or whatever Don't know erm a mahogany cost so much more a mahogany, oh gee whiz Yeah but she said that they were the same price Oh no but erm, she's got mixed up good grief what is that I wonder? I don't know, fifty pence gee, grief, that's six times as much , you'd have to have something for brown stains wouldn't you, you couldn't just use them er hand like, but, but is brown mind you but erm Pittance What about the erm,be you know beeswax, beeswax have you got that? yeah it's in here There you are, oh that's a one that's made up Here we are Oh yes I said the grey colour is alright That's the one we want is it? Yeah That's half a kilo, six eighty but we found that the yellow was purified, you know, it's, it's What about the oth the erm , what is it the pure beeswax He just says beeswax doesn't he in his yeah yellow beeswax Yellow is it? I see, yes, yes er and, and what about the paraffin? And the paraffin ones , little colour That's cheap Yeah Oh well oh well I think that er would be a good proportion to er Morell's, but then we got to, anyway, excuse me I must go somewhere. Hello you Lucy-woosy, hello there Lucy-woosy, yeah, ooh, you're a lovely girl you oop Right I want all that lot cut up for Right so all you need is a good saw and a ha , ten Irish navvies. Ah I done this I said I said to Norm I cut some walnut not, not that long of course from the deep Did he do it? He didn't do it No, no He, he had a lot of machinery actually years ago he, before he moved here he sold Oh Norm yes at his old place, he had er He sold er most of it three machines a great big saw and because he didn't have the room for it here and all this but er he had a business Well when he had it He's got a lot to do now you see when you've done it all, I suppose you could get a bit further with his yeah but he's got to the stage now as if yeah he's not gonna do a lot, whatever he did before at home I'm not sure but er he's done all his windows and stuff like that but I think then again he can do a lot at work you see. Yeah Cutting and all this Yeah there's the machine, he done it, bring it home and assemble it so, not too much on the heavy side. Yeah, but I mean he's done all his windows hasn't he, he's adapted all his windows from that er Yeah, oh yeah from that frame he's bought, so he's done quite well really Yeah eh we could have a ah? with you underneath I'll hold the saw, I wouldn't push it oh one of those pits yeah There's no need for the pits, we can have a series of trestle Yeah out in the fresh air and have to Yeah had to blow the dust off you I well, and Margaret could even go Yes, I'm good at that every time I done the down stroke Yes Sounds a bit like that idea? Eh? Do you like that? I like that idea of that, but er get somebody else underneath Get another volunteer Yeah Dogs get the dogs there's a system there with a, a bone, every time you move that you'd move a bone and they'd go down They'd have to go down to the the one on the top they keep pulling back up, you wouldn't have to strained any energy going back up Have you got your grandchildren Easter eggs yet chaps? Er, I sent some money down for Bethan and Kaylie Yeah er I just wondered if you'd remember, you know when I sent Bethan her birthday card down there, I sent some money for her Yeah and I sent some money for, but I mentioned it to Peter Yeah before they went back, and er, I can't remember whether I told them to get one or whether they should be up for Easter. Well they could, they're moving up here aren't they Yeah, so time, so I tell you what I can't do, I can't find, I can't find Charles' birthday on me calendar Oh, well I said This is the other thing you've got to start remembering innit Marg? when we were at Carrie's at the weekend I said you must tell me all the birthdays again, because I can't find them. I don't even remember to look at the calendar Oh well, I, I, I mean I, my mind, my memory is going I know, but I, but I look at that and I turn it over each month and I have a look at I have an idea what's What's coming up that month. Once you've got to do it, then you do it Good idea actually but if you leave it to somebody else well you never done. Well I'm, I'm the same, I was talking to Rob the other day and er, I forget how I mentioned it, but I said something about, oh I think it's because I was saying why don't you come up like this week because he's off this week, and er, he was making some excuse or other, oh I've got three weeks off in the summer, oh I'd sooner come up when I've got this longest spell off, you know, and I want to get this chimney done and blah, blah Hope he's not coming for three weeks so I said something about last week, you see, and I could of, it was my birthday last week and, but er, and I carried on, he said oh go , oh I'm sorry mum, I'm sorry about that and I said don't matter, doesn't matter , well I thought, right I'll let him know Fancy telling him that Yeah, he's got, he's got all the birthdays on his calendar He should remember , he should I mean , he does sort of ask about the er he's got them all written down How many lads at that age remember? yeah , you I never used to, you used to? I did, I always remembered my mum's cos it's St Patrick's day Mm, you anyway, when your mum was alive How did? Who did? No, I always remembered me mother's birthday. I've forgotten what day it was now, what was my mum's birthday? I've no idea Eleventh of January Was it? Oh your mum's I was gonna say, how does he know that? No Ken didn't know your mother's birthday Raymond What are you like? You wouldn't of known that My father did have a bike actually it was before your time I reckon Oh dear Yes it was a bit before my time Paul's in December, Fonz is er August no Rob's is August Rob's is August, yeah Sixth of August is Robin, it's only a week after yours, it should be easy to remember Yeah, oh I don't know Well you've changed yours so many times Well it, I can't, I'm always getting mixed up you know, whether it's the twenty ninth or the thirty Well he reckons it's the thirty first now Oh well he's moved on a day then I wished you'd make up your mind I've altered it on our calendar that many times What for? What for, you cheeky swine You always get a card If I didn't remind, remember your birthday nobody will. I'd let it go by and No chance of doing that That was when you couldn't speak, was it? Yeah Ah Wouldn't say no you wouldn't say a word All I've got you'd, you'd, you wouldn't say a word on your birthday you'd let everybody know well in advance The week before yeah and keep mentioning it, so as they couldn't forget. Loads of presents That's one birthday you never forget Small but an expensive present please Oh big and expensive if you want no as long as it's expensive Quantity and quality that's what I What do you have Bertie eh? Oh it's nice But you've just said one big one Yours a yes, yes, go on Yeah you can tell he's not eating now Why? Oh shut up. I've had nothing to eat today Why not? a couple of biscuits, that's all I've had er, Why, have you had an upset tummy? No Oh you've forgot no I just didn't want anything, I don't, I don't bother I, I mean I only used to have one meal a day before. You're like a blooming dog, one meal a day. On me days, on me days off that's all I ever had. I like a bit of a snack, we don't have much at lunch time oh a few crackers or something Eh what can, what, what will Superglue stick er cast iron? It all depends Ken it's Did you I've never found it very successful with big things, very not big, it's not a big, it's that piece of hand handle of the gutter. I was cleaning it up, I mean it dropped off there and it didn't break So have you still got it have you? I was cleaning, cleaning it up and of course I was tapping it with a hammer wasn't I to try and get all the putty you know, try and break the putty and most of it came away and I just tapped this one little One last fatal tap one little piece came Mm I wonder what erm stuff for the cars do Ken? As it happens Yes What Great to fill it up to fill put a lamp on either side you know and put some in a crack, a lump either side You can buy all kinds of filler now it should do anything, indoors or outdoors I was surprised can't you? I mean Oh well this is for different kinds of metal you see They do? I know down at Evans I've noticed quite a few things in there, there are different mm you know for, for different jobs For who? For you, it's easy for you who to say Yeah, but er, this is usually you've got to work on top of course you've gotta Eh, no I mean I've gotta dark that Oh you've got it off Oh it fell off didn't it. Oh I see. So it's been in the garage for years? No it's only, it only came off doing that, putting that wire round for the aerial. You should ruddy well call them back to get it they caused the damage or failing that, claim on the insurance mind you they'd probably say well you must get in touch with the company that did the job. Well the trouble is you can probably get I mean if somebody replace a whole puts an aerial on your roof and they knock a hole in your roof then presumably they're liable for the damage Oh yes yes, third party isn't it? having said that it's getting them, getting them back isn't it to do it what was I gonna say before I started saying something did you What's that? oh did you see that film? That was it, did you see that film Blocking It with erm Dennis Weaver McCloud Weaver Weaver, he played McCloud about the chap that couldn't read I thought it was Dennis Weaver not Dennis, I thought it, what's his name McCloud. No we, he played McCloud Oh it is the same one yeah Yeah No, I, I, no Do you want to borrow, well it's on two tapes, well I've still got it on the tapes if you want it, it's quite a good quite a good film yeah, you, you, oh you taped it when I was here it's quite a good film Is it? Yeah, so I mean you'll have to find a spot on the film where it It's a good castrating because it used to be a bit of a this is a film You, have you ever had what's is name back, did I give you what's is name back? Yes, yes What's that? the erm Dances With Wolves Wolves, we did enjoy it erm Bob thoroughly enjoyed it I think that's the first part and I think it's ready to go on there, erm So that's er the one with the photograph on yes That's right and the other, the rest of it is on the end of that, but I've wound it almost back to the beginning, that's Fantasia at the beginning of the tape Oh I don't want to see that which is about two hours long so I don't want so you'll have to fast forward it and suffer the last hour Well it was once , once, I couldn't see it again, but the music was beautiful of course, but then Fantasia? whether you want to listen to I mean as you say the music, yes, but the, all the props in it, no You scalpel It was great, but it was I mean, I, I have to watch it because I'd never seen it before ain't you? Eh, mm and I thought I'd watch it now I saw it as a kid Did you? I, I don't ever remember cos I couldn't Yeah, it might be, yeah, it could of been a bit overpowering I think. Did Kelly's kids watch it? Yes they have seen it, yeah, I said to Carrie have you watched it What do they say? What did they say? Did they pay Cos I much attention to it or did they, distract er well I didn't go into details see it's not their scene but er I mean they wouldn't want to listen to the music I don't think I think er she said some of it was a bit you know slow and dragging for them Yeah I mean er there was some of the music which wasn't our Oh some of the music is a bit heavy too. yeah, and You know out of your seats especially I mean ob , obviously the er, the lights of spring and the er dances of very nice oh there's some lovely music in it. We all know this but but er the sorcerer is some of it is very clever some of it, the effects and when you think back to nineteen forty one whichever Oh yeah, oh it was marvellous, but I mean it's You'd never get away with it today It was popular in the cinema's wasn't it? you couldn't make it today and get away with it oh, it just wouldn't at all well I mean and of course you'd, you watch it over sort of sentimental or what have you, but I, I couldn't watch it again I don't think. I can listen to the music Well that's why, that's why I said well we would I was gonna say I mean, yeah keep it on tape because I haven't got some of the music but yeah that's true we've got them on record , but erm, no it's erm It's not And of course it was Stokowski was the conductor you see Yeah he was a big name at the time, Laepol Stokowski Yeah but erm, I imagine what's his name wouldn't do it, Walt Disney Oh good heavens no, I mean Walt Disney the M B C Mind that plant behind you. Oh it was very good. What's this one about erm Well I, I hadn't heard of it on the telly, I with you yesterday, Jessica Tandy, erm Green Tomatoes Oh yes, yes Cafe or something yes Look at this, it ain't very good a peculiar title Oh she's How, how old is she, she's about eighty isn't she? Private, she's eighty odd She's ninety two she is now, ninety two Is she ninety two? It's incredible I heard her on the radio, she sounded very allusive She was before the war Yeah she was in the The Birds, wasn't she that film called The Birds That's right, yeah, yeah only a small role in that but she sort of had a late arrival But she's the what's it, what, said like she was the toast of America for years Mm in the, in the, on the stage Oh on the stage, yeah, but in films she came in later and only had small parts and never made yeah, yeah much impact until this, one about the chauffeur did she Yeah Driving Miss Daisy Yeah Driving Miss Daisy yeah, have you seen that? I have Have you seen it? I enjoyed that, yeah Did you see it at the cinema or on video? No on video, I, I saw that Oh it's er, I, well I enjoyed it I was gonna say it has to vary to It's, you know I mean it's a bit predictable and all that really, but Entertaining, mm it was er She's in that wasn't she er Kelly Maguinness about the Macarthy business that She said the play is erm The House on Carol Street was it? Yeah Oh er, The House on yes I think it was Carol Street wasn't it? she was the old lady that sort of let to read to her That's right she goes to read to you, yeah mm, then again she didn't have much of a part in that She didn't, she's no in a play isn't she? A play What in London now er, a It's on er one, either this one or somebody else, being interviewed no she was sit in this what play is that I'm sure she said she was in a play Well I, I know she said while she was over here, she's just Oh she was er, in a, in a promoting a film perhaps, I don't think she's in a no she didn't, it was promoting, I don't know whether she was in the television one, but I'm sure she said she's work, she was working, you know she was over here to work Mm, I know it, she was with her husband because erm whoever it was Yes, it was who interviewed her How old is he? I can't remember who it was now, but they said have you been, have you seen this, have you done that, which she said no she hasn't, I think she'd only just arrived some, some time last week didn't she? Yeah But er, mm but er I wouldn't of thought she She's got very severe though hasn't she, you, never comes over erm a sympathetic character, she's always playing the The more austere types Like that one in Carol Street that was a type she played that one Yes that's her role in always thought of rebuking the girl, so Mm the slightest thing and Yeah very little humour But then that was the role she played obviously Well that's it Well she's a bit like that in Driving Miss Daisy I think isn't she? I've no idea. Mm, well I'm only going by cuts I've seen, but same type of role I suppose. So what have you decided to do about these damn boards? I thought I would go and take one of the head ones and journey along down to that place and so, you know, is there any chance you slipping me down a good four long ones and if he says no, think again? Mm, see how many Well how much is the detector? One of the hand held ones About fifteen quid I think for a small one this chap said, it's very cheap Oh, cheap, oh I thought it would of been about fifty pounds No Oh they're only a plastic job I would of imagined Oh I mean it's only that long What if the same situation would apply with iron nails presumably then Well I've no idea, you know, I mean he all he does is all timber so I imagine he's dealing with a quite a lot of old hand made nails and Mm hand made nails mm , you'll have to ask him about it, it might be an investment and begin a usually Oh I was gonna say what kind has he got? How much was his? Oh I, I think he said they only fifteen pounds, those tiny ones. Is that what he's got at this That's what he uses, cos I mean he wouldn't be doing stuff like this anyway mind. So does he take his to a timber yard to be split? I wouldn't of thought so. Well why does he use it then, why does he need a metal detect? Well if he gets an old piece of Wants to plane it or he wants to plane it or Mm whatever he wants to make sure that he's He's not going to ruin his tools you see Yes, mm cos well even the chisel he could knock, knock a lump of chisel couldn't you with a Yeah chopping away there's a, there's a nail in it Yeah not this sort of thing you wouldn't as I say he wouldn't of been touching it with this. So Well how thick this stuff is then? About an inch and Oh it could, should do that I was wondering what technique he'd be very good at It's a three quarters It's er three quarters isn't it and five eighths whatever, I'm hoping to get two Two boards two shelves out of it you see I reckon you can cut it yourself Well that's what I'm trying to get these to do you see, that's it, it's about that, that wide, and doing that by hand And keeping it straight, you'd have to have a jig or something to keep it in No I did those others just to I got one side and then you turn it over, you keep to the line all the time you know, so the two cuts meet Mm most times they do, sometimes they It does not the Channel Tunnel We'd have two tunnels Three, right I'll be going to Chester again tomorrow That's how they used to do it Ken I know we did right, but I that's something I'd never this chap with his book he says watch out of it George it burns you, look in the corner and get your torch, you know, maybe you're going to an antique place get inside, sometimes Get inside you're going where it hasn't , the plane hasn't, he said he can see and he tells you how to See the saw marks, mm mm, that's right, because there were like lines across where they And you've got different sort of saw marks some of er them saw, which er, is obvious a machine, they even had band saws apparently at the end of the last century, cabinet makers band saws oh I've never seen, all I've ever seen is the big ones for mills you know the logs, these ones for er, obviously for timber erm They must need to cut them and then of course there's you can see the mark on it, that one's a curl isn't it? But er, pre, I thought you were talking about George the first something like that then you've got er hand sawn timber, you know you can see the marks on the board Er, you've been fiddling about at the back where it breaks yeah, did you tell Ken? some of this has gone on on the back there? Yeah Ah you want, you know what is surprising you know, he said about putting the what's its name in the, in the base No Well you know how the, those gutters one sits on the other at the joint don't they, and they used to fill it with er putty didn't they and That's right, yeah and they used to have a little screw to No well there was a screw in Oh oh there was a screw, we had like a screw with er some screw with er, with er like a nut on the end didn't they, and I thought now this is no way is this gonna come out come out Ooh put it in the vice, I mean put it in the vice whether, whether it just pull the head off I don't know but it came out got a screw in there Mm well you think all those years the knot, the knot in the what's its name Yes but er this chap said in his book about and his screws, touch it with a soldering iron something hot, you know, the head in it, it'll get warm and sort of sometimes cracks the, separates the rust from the Yeah outside of the screw Of course you'll get a bit of heat, get a bit of heat from it, yeah you to start otherwise your head snaps off doesn't it? You wouldn't of thought of putting a soldering iron on there would you? He does have some good tips this chap. What book's that? The one by this chap teaching At college you know he's written the book Michael Bennett bought the book Yeah Have you seen the film, now buy the book, huh So you've bought the book? I've bought it yeah at a discount You weren't going to buy it were you? No Well I thought I'd borrow one or you bought, well you did borrow one bloke that came to er, theatre closing on a Sunday, a once a monthly fifteen quid's not bad Oh, oh that's superb they're for sale in America, Australia, Canada well well I mean they I, I shouldn't imagine, I should imagine there must be potential or they wouldn't of sent him there Oh of course of course you know er, they're not that daft Oh no, I hope that that they waste money, er oh no, I don't think they would be I mean the thing is it's a limited market isn't it? But the, but it, well like it's there A lot of people interested now you see amateurs Yes Oh you know you see them on the telly, don't you, housewife with er Ah well I mean there's of course well I mean that what's it you know, it's surprising how much, that Antiques Roadshow's Oh well oh absolutely oh yeah you know he must get a huge audience every Sunday night, I know we would But then again a lot of people wouldn't dream of doing anything, they go and buy some but er there are But they would read , some would read about it and things like that Mm Oh I'd have a go at that Mm Yeah Oh yes I wonder if this fellow sort of does take the erm mystique out of a great extent, they said we'd try to get some chemicals this morning from him. Oh yes, well, you said you were gonna You said ring old Bentley up didn't you? Yeah, well er, yeah well go down there I mean he still lives at the back of the shops still just ask him Yeah Well you could ask him right, I mean, I, I mean I don't, I don't think he sh , he didn't sell the shop did he? And I don't suppose Oh no he told he sold off all his stock they did a feature on him didn't they the other Yeah week and they I don't suppose you know, I mean he's erm a bit of an eccentric now isn't he? Cor not half, but he's always been a bit of oh well yes I suppose so He was as didn't he years ago and the big kids sort of, well not torment him, but he's for the fun you know Did he, was he in, was he in the polo team or did he used to er no wasn't interested I can remember seeing him about of cubs or Always used to go on a Sunday messing about a big str , a bit strong fellow to he had good legs on him, he did a lot of cycling you know Mm but the big kids used to jump on and all, he used to laugh like Oh yeah oh as you say a bit of a character Yeah right so go down and see him, and then go over to that place near Red Row and see if they'll cut that wood for you we can see it's just gone half past two now, I want a ball game on the fence post post today I offered to help he said he's got a mate to help I don't know whether he thinks I'm gonna mm, oh unless Kathy did she say he thought No, what I was work , going to school Yes he thought you were at college today because I said no, I said erm it's Tuesday he goes cos Kathy said oh your dad could of come on Monday, oh what's this lad's name who was helping me today? One of the police fellows, you know One of fellows he did his training with you know and he said I, I slept very badly on Sunday night but I slept much better last night and I woke up early, if I go to sleep early,wer , a, I wake up early Oh with still aches and pains Sunday's I'm absol yeah, I'm absolutely knackered and I just can't get out of bed even though I'm awake, you know Great, good god and then other, like this morning I woke up about quarter to seven, well I'd been awake a while but I thought I'd came to at quarter to seven I went down and make some tea and having breakfast Bouncing with energy and then, no I wouldn't say that but er, no my arms have been really painful this last week Mm, mm, Margaret it's her feet, huh I don't know why she gets out of bed and she's like this Oh well I'm like that al always, I walk to the bathroom you know yeah, that's right, yeah to lean But that's, that's something I've had for years, but my arms and shoulders Shoulder mm and you know my elbows Mm my, my shoulders It must be awful thing and of course you tend if, if you haven't got it to tend to think for god sake, you know it's a, it's a nice day You know some days I'm really like an old mm when I get Yes , yes, yeah up in the morning once I've had a bath and I'm moving, you know, I'm fine That's right so I, it's just yet you never seem to show it here, do you, once, once you're going m, well as I say , once I'm going it's just getting going You know some people I mean er, er they're really bad Yeah they're, they're, they have to sit down Yeah for a, days don't they? Yeah But they say exercise is a bad thing if er the joints are infected, but the joint Well, I'm trying to sort of monitor my diet really erm Yes, you must erm, avoiding citrus fruits, I drink too much coffee Coffee I know I drink too much coffee well we do, yes , that's bad for you I've started drinking camomile tea on occasion Yeah vile though isn't it? No, I don't mind it Oh but I can't drink it all the time No, no it's an acquired taste I've gone on to decaffeinated coffee I do drink decaffeinated Oh yeah, that's better , erm erm, but erm you know it's just one of those but of course it's unfortunate things I think, so some of the young people have got it, my, I mean my son is only twenty nine and he's got it you know in the shoulders this er Mm er, now he doesn't like to talk about it you see, and I said to him one day look Paul for god sake, oh, he'll tell his mum, but he doesn't like to talk about it to me No, well mind you I mean which is bad really isn't it? well Nick, Nick, I've always been the buffer, it's funny, I mean Bruce is, is very like you in a lot of ways, he's very easy going, you know and, but if the kids ever wanted anything Mum or wanted to that's right real to say something to Bruce they'll come to me and I'll have Yes and I'll have to tell Bruce that's right, funny isn't it? Yeah it's really strange isn't it? yeah, it is, yeah And yet, you know, he's, he's marv , he's super and they think the world of him Just that mum It's a lot more when they were but it's, it's all cos you know younger perhaps Yeah it's still all there, isn't it? Yes, yes, it is strange that they have this Yeah, even on the phone our Rob rings up and er, he'll speak to me for a few minutes and he speaks Yeah is mum there? yeah is mum there, or, you know, oh Yeah or she'll have two talks to him, when I've finished , but mum on again what have I done? I don't think it's anything really No, no, it's just at all, it's just er it's how they are You can make them up you me or or No no, oh You know, you know this casting It would cost you more to build it up and buy the parts Oh yeah probably would, yeah, new that's, that's your problem if they're new parts anyway Yeah yeah, yeah, unless they're old, old ones yeah and they'd all have to fit wouldn't they? I suppose they're not all the, you get a record, they, was a stanley Yeah the other one's a re , I mustn't get one of these oh a long one it's eh Yeah for shooting and er doing the long stuff Is it this lot they call jointing plane is it? Yeah Or is that the very, very long one? that's the smoothing one the little one, isn't it? They're bound to have dozens of them in there Oh and the old jack plane, remember the oh, we have done that yeah, they're not worth buying second hand I don't think now because there's so much wear on them isn't there? You know the wood on them over the years it's Well it's not, oh, this is the metal one Oh I see yeah, yeah, I'm thinking back to the wooden ones, yeah at school, you know the er, we use to have a shooting board Mind you the shape I suppose yeah but you, you, sometimes you get the hole wears doesn't it were the er blade is and all this business so you get a great wadge of wood jamming in there but er, I could do spending a few hundred quid on tools, but what can you do? right, yeah, very, very useful Oh but I don't know, we of those John are very, very Pardon? dangerous you know, with the fastest moving Oh wood machine, they're doing about thirty odd thousand revs you know, so I mean No there's twenty to Twenty is it? Yeah over twenty two thousand that's a lot of revs Yeah one mistake you know forget something and you'll be going round like this five pints I use, I use to see quite a lot of things missing you know in a certain time Oh the erm I saw three bad accidents you know, with people on, mainly on spindles they wouldn't put the guards, they never used to have the guard on you see you No you were like this yeah I've seen that happen twice yeah and then a, a guy that I served the time on, he, he was he was And also nearly seventy and he's put his hand under to get the the spindle guard is er, shavings out you have a block on which the cutters are bolted aren't they? English block yes that's right, yeah Yeah and sometimes it wears loose, you know? Oh yeah, oh you must watch that Yeah but they're not allowed to use them now George said Pardon? here anyway, they're not allowed to use an English block or the French head, which is the one, you know, the spindle And the slot in it, so I mean really that one up there is a, a bit of an ornament, never used, I suppose you can see why because er That's right they started letting, letting students use that well er of course, er they'll be paying compensation they do a lot of rebating with that dado head on the Do they? Here? and the remember when you went up on it, the housing for the bookcase on that yes, yes, yes Do you remember it, pulling the machine across and there was your housing Oh yes on the cross cut thing, yeah, er, er Yeah you can use it for a saw or put a head and you can set it that's right, yeah, that's right , now that was very useful that was Yeah the French out yeah, yeah, yes they allow it, well they allow them to use it don't they, I suppose, now that's very dangerous mate I've seen a lot of those in there saves a lot of work semi , semi domestic use I mean there's so much more, well I did these on the mortise er, up the top last week you know Yeah did it on the mortise Mm and er, so all I had to do was the tenons really and, and at least you know that they're symmetrical Yeah you know, there's no, whereas when you do it with a chisel it's a bit of a, inverted commas Oh yeah right box on a bit The only way we can actually go about it is that if we use these cramps and if you remember me telling you, or I do hint every now and then, make sure you keep the cramps straight parallel to the rails, and that's the reason why because it'll fall straight, now if something's in twist and we want to bring it back again, what you do is if it's in twist that way, you put the cramp as I've done these slightly up Up now that cramp oh well, oh as you turn it up, it's gonna pull straight, that bit still didn't do it so we went to the other side, put the cramp the other way and having put that one down and that one up, now if you sight that now through there Yeah it's alright now This is wobbling isn't it? One, one leg's shorter than the other for starters isn't it? Jolly good This one it will, but what is the most important, do we get the I want the shorter one in that one is it? Yeah, yeah George Now what's happened in the past someone has cut these that's right wrongly Oh aye, it's going down there try and make it er You clever Brian, no, ah? What we've got to do is one or two things, do we get this right? Or do we get that right? And that's the original chair er when that was level, now to get that right You have to take some off that one there Or afterwards put something on there Mm and it's leaning forward and it's and, and these two as well supposed to have casters No you should have casters on there that's why and it about up to there Should you really? Yes so that's what's missing Shucks so would of It would of had either Surely not, it would of made too high with casters No, no Oh And if a chair's sloping like that you could of Yeah I know, but, but casters on I imagine it would be a greater So that's how it should be slope than that wouldn't it? Yeah And not only that No There's something missing off there no a bit fine to get casters on the end of that no no inch, inch and a half they do them seven eighths erm, now you've got to make your mind up on this Once again I stand corrected What's more important getting that level and putting that right or getting the bottom level which to me would be more important I think just So do we stand the cramping? Yeah, this business of pulling it down there to OK, so we can use the cramps to your advantage to pull things back into again, by just offsetting them. I was mentioning to Chris before you know she had a hell of a job to get these joints out here cos they've got three dowels in each one Yeah now using Mike's method, you know, putting the water in Well that's what we did to get this far Yeah, but she didn't, she didn't inject it, did she? No we just grabbed the dowel But the, the trouble was the water wasn't going into the dowels Well it won't even if you inject it because, how I just wondered is there another way? No Oh all it will do is slowly soften and go in, I can assure you, you don't need to inject it No, so there, they've got to be forced, forced out warm water in , warm water Yeah and don't forget water will go in with capillary attraction I see so the tighter the joint, the water will penetrate because the obviously danger's that it's snapping the dowels and it's which, it what happened on, on the case of the two dowels innit? That's because we were porting it Yeah what we should do when you're doing these and we took one apart but we didn't break them Mm and what your supposed to do is Clamps sudden shock Oh if you find that it's not moving I see with a sudden shock, that's when the dowels are gonna break, so what you try and do is you actually Lever it so that fix one, but don't lever it too much in this stuff, just to move them No cos it's gonna snap and then once you've started moving them Bring the chair over in the water, so you start making the crack, you put more water in Mm, yes and that softens the joint, and it's surprising the warm water going in Good i yes it will soften the joint anyway with the animal glue Yeah Yeah It's best to use a rag or something round it Yes it is, yes because the rag is only going to stay damp on the outside That's a good idea Well what about using the clampers we did before, turned inside out or whatever, you know with the, force the joints These wouldn't, you know, you'd have to turn these round, you can use these clips to clamp a part, but Mm most of the time, you can, if you soften it, it came apart reasonably easy is isn't so if the joint is loose hand me swinging on it for ten minutes they were tight, they were very tight one's Well if you just run, once you've got the, got the crack Yes Mm the joint open a little bit run water Water, yeah don't even in inject, you know pour a cup of water in, into a, through and then it'll come off fast Don't you have to wait until that dries before you put the new glue on the, the joint? No because with the glue Oh doesn't matter, oh of course it's water soak it in water Yes, I that's right yeah, oh there you are learnt something else I'll point it out to the girl and if she wanted to, it, it's not a chair, but I think it's more decorative than anything else It's a nice brown colour that too, isn't it ah? and it, it didn't look odd at all really yeah Ah that's right, have the, have the upholstery slanting What sort of wood is it? Mahogany It's Why's it so pale? it's Pale mahogany yeah, now what's It looks like yew Yeah Oh is it? You reckon It looks like, no. You haven't been here for last week did you? Last week Right yes, yes Oh what a sham yes I missed you after we all missed you didn't we? something missing wasn't there, that, that little spark Ah, you're so good No I had a friend er from Holland who stayed Oh lovely, yeah and well I've, I've had a sort of split feeling I wanted to be here Oh well you've got a visitor you can't can you? I know How long have you got now, er before you go back? Stopped dancing Pardon? I stopped dancing when I came to What, oh I didn't see that no, no and it'll need in America to dance Pardon? you can't dance with clogs on You can Oh yes People do I know clog I don't know how, but Ah, just eh Nanette I thought it was Fred Astaire Don't believe them for one minute Take no notice did you ever see a programme about erm, I forget his name now but he used to dance with Sammy Davis er man in he's nearly seventy now I suppose but him and his brother go to this place in New York and it showed him outside in the street Cotton Club The Cotton Club Yeah and this chappie had a double hip replacement operation, it's been on the television here and er, he said they started off dancing with Sammy Davis, you know, er what's it called, Tip Tap Toe or something like that, they, they act Sammy Davis and his, and his parents and then these two chaps I, I mean they hadn't made it big time Well he was quite a good dancer himself Oh yes, oh gosh, yes, well these two are fantastic for their ages, god the way the could move, you know Yeah and they get two this guy got absolutely marvellous but they were full of it and they said we just learned it we didn't, we didn't go to school or anything like that, we They learned it on the corner they danced on the, on the corner they, they sort of compete with each other for different steps Oh yes, oh it was all like in you say, but it doesn't a character Did you see that kid from Lancashire? Honestly they, they were you're thinking about clog dancing clog dancing and and the clogs have the steel run oh yeah but it's not the same but I mean it's amazing how fast Yeah and they, they beat out the rhythm in much the same way don't it? I mean that's, that's about as entertaining as morris dancing Morris dancing, I find that very interesting I can't stand it me, do you like it I mean somebody's again there's morris dancing and there's morris dancing I feel that if there's, there's awful lot of history this cos there's a very ancient history behind it Erm, yeah Oh yes, I imagine, oh yeah I find very interesting Oh there must be, yeah, as an entertainment I don't know. There, there was a wonderful display in Chester about five years ago They're good er quite a Mhm large number of morris dancers They're still there, they were there last week but some from Leeds Oh aye there, oh there's hundreds of clubs The sword dancers you know were they use the and some of it I don't fancy that is absolutely tremendous Mm, mm the way they involve these complicated patterns but I think they were either last week or the week before they were there Mm, what about the Scotch dancing, with the, over the swords? Yeah You have to have a lot of plasters for your toes I believe No the Irish have the version of that too don't they? That's right the jug isn't it? Jimmy Cagney Pardon? I'm a yankee doodle Did you ever see that film? Yes four times Oh he's sticks his bottom out it's amazing how he changed isn't it from a There's a terrible article about him in the papers just last week about Mickey Rooney, he wrote some Oh I like Mickey Rooney some, I, he wrote a biography the second part of this biography and got a real in L A Yeah What Mickey Rooney? Mickey Rooney oh, oh Well Cagney biography, autobiography was a great song and dance man, that was him, then he became biography or autobiography? auto autobiography Ooh I'd like to read that then he went into the I'd love to dance yeah Oh Cagney oh that's how he started off public enemy That's right Oh he's in the song and dance before Oh yes before the gangster on the stage and in films but Edward G was a marvellous actor, he was a stage actor he was Yeah I like, I like him Yes very good I thought I don't, there's no characters have any more, there's very few anyway It's like what's his name Sammy Davis, when he was alive he was on the telly doing all these and he said how can you do this fellows now he said? They just train themselves, don't they? Steve McQueen and er They have no personality themselves do they? all, they're all, they're all , there's very little Mm They're either shouting or but I mean they're getting millions now you get this Was it Michael Cain in that movie he was in over the weekend, er I don't like Oh Educating Rita Yes that's right Yeah and one of the few movies where he's not going around shouting he was drinking, but he wasn't shouting Yeah, quite good actually I like Julie Walters he was exactly acting in general she's er er actually a lot of his film is fairly quietly, he wasn't doing shouting in Zulu He tends he tends to be No stereotyped doesn't he, I er mm, the Italian Affair the only one I like him in, the one I like him in was the Sleuth, did you ever see that one? Erm Forget who wrote it, erm no with Olivier Olivia Hall, now that was brilliant that was Yeah Have you seen it? Yeah Oh Mm Of course Olivier, but he was good in that one, because he was playing his part, you know the the jumped up hairdresser sort of thing Yes, it was very good that Yes ah but erm she'd been trying to get hold of George I think for about two hours. No, in Weymouth where my son lives Weymouth? Yeah, sells half tubs and erm fittings for the old houses, floor boards, doors, bit of furniture All architectural salvage places they're very cheap, they don't seem to know their value that, I got those two Ercols there Yeah got the rocking chair, a wardrobe the Ercols you say pay forty was it? Forty pounds for those, they cost me about a hundred pounds those you know, the materials Pardon? They cost me about a hundred pounds altogether with the materials What for the pair? Yeah, yeah dining chairs, six dining chairs they cost me seventy, I spent over thirty already on materials for the top material the foam you know it's, everything's so dear now isn't it? Yes what can you do? Down there if somebody wanted to buy a chair like that Well er a solid oak chair now is a hundred and fifty, two hundred quid a time yeah, I know, yeah that's right yeah, you can't skimp, you've just got to pay it Pardon? You can't skimp No if you want to do the job correctly, er it's no good buying very cheap material if it's gonna ruin the chair is it? That's right So you might as well splash out and Yeah hope you get the money Mind you those er Ercol, we, say your wife wants to keep them She kept them, yeah, yeah but they're erm, they'd be about five hundred quid to buy for the two I you were saying, yeah , yeah oh I know the the good stuff Did you write off for a catalogue? No I never got round to it John, I should of done, yeah, I'll, I'll have to do that Yeah I shall have to do that because er er on your knees again er Yeah on me knees again for you are you gonna say a prayer? Can't you get on the bench here er Nanette? Sorry Get on the bench well it was all, no it's OK, it's OK, I need some exercise so Oh I see you Shall I do it for you while you're doing something else? Oh well You could always say, oh well er they didn't stop me and you claim about half a million hey that's not bad drop something on your foot and say I'm, I'm crippled now I think we he's walking round like a lost soul Yeah It's a pain then isn't it when you're waiting for, why you waiting for machining is it? Drill that out and drill some holes in here, oh oh I see you want the advice from him Eh? You want advice old George I want, I want to know where the drill is so that I can use drill's up in the, John's cupboard Ah the electric drill well I don't really want an electric one, I can see missing a hole on here and Oh, well the other one's in here Ah alright the bits are in that grey box at that top there, er Victoria Secretarial work, you know that sort of thing, is run up on computers Oh aye, she's er, she's done a, she's done a course and hearing aid she's done a course and a How were they on batteries? Great, they last me a long time Yeah, I did think here getting one, a tape, I often end up erm cutting the grass or something er get the Sunday extended news I fancy er, you know because I've got a power mower Or your doing something and you don't want the others to hear because it's Yeah it's gonna disturb them, yeah I must get one for my er garage er, er a tape recorder, I've got the wireless in there but oh you know er, most of the time it's the noise isn't it, you know what I mean, get the odd programme you want to listen to, but a lot of the time it's erm pop music and that which I can't, I can't abide and then your Jimmy Young and I tell you what also, don't get Jimmy Young very often, I like him when he's interviewing Oh yeah he gets some because he gets them to talk, he doesn't impose his views on other people No, no, no, no he draws them out, which is what you want anyway and then you get some good er like a doctor goes on there and So many of these er Brian they're trying to impose their Yes, views yeah views mm, mm, which you don't want to hear do you? No You say it should be It's my son, I'm sort of playing it by ear, I'm not quite sure what I'm doing oh dear me not quite sure at all I usually end up working harder. Well if we hadn't of had that shower I'd be working on me hedge now, but er Yeah I got some work and me boys got on some post putting up, he said, but mind you, it might er dry up I don't know, it looks a bit er, thick doesn't it? You on today, all day? Pardon? You on this afternoon, work? Yeah Oh dear But they've er put me forward an hour which is quite handy Yeah so I'm going in for twelve and finish for eight Mm, this is in Chester isn't it? No, no, Sandy Way Oh Sandy, Sandy Croft, Sandy Way By the time you get back it's nine o'clock I suppose Yeah, well, I mean nine o'clock and you, you used to be back sort of twenty past Yeah, oh well now I'm back at twenty past eight instead won't be long so that's a , come on cheeky chops, anyway see you, bye See you. Morning, how do you do? Hi I know a lot Yeah I know Yeah I was sure that's what our team wrote down cos that's what I wrote on the sheet Yeah, yeah yeah Oh well, do you want to have a word with or Yeah I'm going to Yeah, you should of said that Hello, I've got Mr here from Mold market Sshh he said he's been up there and there's nothing but boxing, there should be something from shouldn't there? you didn't give her name or something Yes I did, I said You know what a mouth a bugger these stall markets are Oh shit now, yeah I know it's a daft thing, but what about erm Yeah, well I'd asked er she's not on for a while I could bleep her if you want oh I'll have to have a word with them see what's happened well it'll be on board go and see Yeah Yes I'll do that, OK, ta. No she's looked under the M's and the fax but, I'll have to have a word with Anthony when he comes back and see what the hell he's playing at . He might have I know it's, I know it's yeah, yeah, yeah OK Alright? smashing Oh I is there anything down for number two, nine, five please, barley twist table Two, nine, five, nothing, but we've got fifteen fifteen number fifteen that'll be worth forty ain't it, done up? Should think so Anything down er for these here computers? Oh the wise one you're talking about five hundred, because that's worth about thirty two K Mm, if you know what that is Yeah erm they're out of offices I presume are they? Yeah mm, business But erm, that one you'll be looking for about five hundred for the ways Ah, five hundred pounds mm, the and the other one on the left hand side about two, seven, five mm yeah, well forget that Why don't these bloody things undo? There we are Somebody had a go yesterday on that waves, you know, but as the yeah so er so these are the sophisticated ones it Oh, would be for that sort of money yeah they're probably, are they, er they're not a home one Oh heck, well I don't know to be honest with you, something you'll be able to play games on Oh no, no, I didn't, I wasn't thinking of that, but er a bit of a something about it, it's something in between that and about a fiver wouldn't you? oh shut up you Ah OK then. Concentration Oh I believe you've got to in fact erm we only managed to get away with it by having the one cost a lot er, thirty three percent very heavy Mm erm, secondly the a citric acid, is it citric or not? Acetic acid or ammonia No it's ammonia Well this is very heavy you mean, the ammonia is it? Don't know about that, that Oh to concentration on H H O. We only have household ammonia, if we have that and that is erm quite, quite low on concentration. Mm I think myself on that the best thing to do is to get in touch with the local chemist we often do that, that's what I suggest to people so they get chemicals that I don't have in public relations get in touch with them and others I see yes public relations exercise I said I see Oh erm, you got, it can produce you've got to go to Merseyside though for that No, no Oh no you've not, I mean, yellow pages, local chemical firm, anything Oh I see I mean the amount of it branch round here oh I see mm, they don't well then, then you could really, would be, I'll always start on, you could go down the police station and have a word with them, see what they think, and they'll probably put you in touch with somebody, cos they know everything they know what Probably region burns and so on Yeah Oh well, that's worth a try, well thank you very much, much obliged Thank you bye Counting your money? How much have you lost? Eight seventy two change, thanks Thank you Do you want No it's alright Bye Hello sir,m , Mr Bentley said you'd might be able to help me Yeah I'm after the chemist in B , I'm after a couple of er, chemicals to do a reviver, a french polisher these two here, get everything but this and, and this one here, as you can see it's only a tiny amount I require Yeah erm, I've tried the two chemists in Buckley, but er What's , what's this in there? Ammonia point eight eight O Oh eight eight ammonia, I don't think I've got any, anyway I'll have a look in it and acetic acid is the problem is it? Is that, is that the one? That's acetic acid but it's got to be this Thirty three percent, yes I can get all the other things Have we got any acetic acid in here er more, then I can give it to somebody else and whatever you know and How are you, love? No, yes we have Don't let us down Hayley Ah it's all there, how's mum and dad? Oh they're fine Oh good, how's er Jane? Oh she's alright Karen's gone back now overseas? Yeah Karen's still in Canada Came over for their wedding didn't she, was it? Yeah she was also over at Christmas Oh I see, oh made a life there hasn't she? Yeah Ah? Yeah, I don't blame her, not much left here is there? No not really How's you mum anyway? She's still baby minding? No, no, she's, Mark's at school now I used to see her so going round er by the little one Yes Ooh good grief, oh gee whiz I know he's five months and Jane's got two little ones now God, where does she live now? She was in She lives in That's right, yeah I think she does at Yeah Lose track we do I haven't seen them for a while Well I saw them at the, er round the corner at Mount Man Road, on that estate Oh yes with your hubby, you know when you were there one day? Yes But er, he was that busy he didn't see me yeah Oh yeah, he was trying to get the bungalow finished so we can sell that down there Oh, oh. Well time marches on It does yeah. Yeah well anyway I'll see you again, bye Well anyway remember us to them won't you? Bye love, bye How many K did he say? I've no idea A thousand? I've forgotten what he said now, something like ten K or something was it? Yes Can I have this please?thank you Lovely, right OK thank you Can I have a couple of er chicken fillets please? Yeah That's gonna be over a pound Three eighty four Yes that'll do fine thanks, have you got any bones or bits for the dogs please? There you are That's lovely, thanks very much Ta love I haven't got any smaller I'm afraid Alright love Fixed up It's that, nothing on there that makes the noise Mm I'm sure that holding it out like this one can do Yes, yes I know Five love, fifteen for twenty Thanks very much OK thanks ta ra Been flat out this morning Yeah Friday night's your worse I suppose and Saturday on Saturday Well no I don't work on the nights anyway, you know we're full time so full time just don't work nights Just take time out just the days, mm, well Thursday and Friday are terrible mm Yes I imagine never stop all day Thursday and Friday we have a lull about lunch time on a Wednesday and Thursday and Friday but that's it, you know it's mm non stop all day. mm Seventeen seventy two please Oh forgive me love I didn't even look to see what it was Yes twenty, thank you Good job you've got marvellous men at home, is it true ladies? Mine's a I couldn't live without him, he does my washing, my ironing Are you listening to this? Well trained and working as well Oh Oh yeah very good hang on to him, hang on to him I will, yeah. Alright Norm, I've got fixed up Hello I thought I'd let you know, he's a handy chap that, the wood Ooh er, down the Yeah bank, I I thought he was gonna say no this guy but er, erm, what's his name? Steven That's right Steven, that's Yobbie's lad he said er is it your own, what is our wood he said, what I said no, he said er Sit down a minute he said you know what is it and I showed him a piece like, he said oh I he said yes, I said I've taken the nails out that I didn't see, he said oh I've got a metal detector here Yeah a proper one, hi Holly, alright love, so I went, left it and then I went called back last night after college and he said oh I haven't done it yet come on he said we'll whiz it on the band saw, put it on the band saw and he'd taken two nails out that you couldn't see you know the, the old stamped cast iron ones, the ends had snapped off Yeah, yeah there inside the wood and he dug those out. He found them before putting them through the saw? Oh I yeah, he got this, this er must of been a good metal detector you know Ooh, I say Three pounds that was for doing four of those long lengths you know and, and a short one Yeah which I hope might just think, think of what it would of cost to get them boards and you wouldn't of got them as easy as that. No, well actually, he got a load, what was I gonna say, he got a load of old pine there you see Yeah, yeah yellow pine, but they're all sizes, I said oh I said you've got some nice old pine, he said oh there's two guys come use it for furniture Yeah, mm, mm two big firms, that's all he ah well, we, we did er, that house we did in, in er Kingsley, well the other side of Kingsley by Northwich for er, he's the managing director of Tarmac for the North West Division and there he bought this house at Kingsley and er we added on to it on the kitchen was a complete wing that we built, a single storey and the roof spars had to show we had to put imitation Ah pitch pine spars straight up to the purlin and the purlin had to be axed Exposed just as he wanted them, there was real oldy-worldy and the kitchen furniture was made down at Buckfastely in Devon and that was all re-claim pine Mm yellow pine and all that it's beautiful too and there was even the worm holes in some of the wood Ha, ha and that had to be there Oh yeah treat them you see, treat them worm holes and he was never on his own doing it Well you know our old house was built with that wasn't it? Yeah Peach pine, and when we took the porch down which had been up nearly a hundred years Yeah, mm there was no rot No there was no rot in the windows, the old windows were a hundred years old well it's full of erm full of resin you see and the windows were perfect the woodworm don't seem to be too keen on it does he? Oh there was a little tiny They're, the woodworm don't seem to be don't like the taste you see No oh it's too, they like sweet wood well those yeah, those bark you took out didn't you, out of the porch Mm Yeah square box like, there wasn't a bit of it was a pity to take it down, but six inch square oh like the Jacobean style er the er The black and white thing The frame work yeah all the frame work was sixty six, all morticed and tenoned and dowelled and there were Marvellous ah brick inset was all the brick and then plastered over and that gave the black and white effect, but that was the original and the, the proper way to do it all those years I mean today they do, they plaster a wall and they Even the cellars got them oh yeah weren't they? That's, that's and that's how it's done today Mm Even the trellis were dry but that's there's over the they put pellets and even the pellets sticking out thinking that people but there's all sorts of ways of Oh I It was er well built that well this chap says there's er, oh he says how much is, he said oh he says, nine by one pound, pound a foot, I said good grief pound a foot, so I mean start talking about six by threes Yeah remember he, he used to go with the Steven's sister still keeps the pub in the village in yes Oh yes oh aye they keep a pub and erm our Steve, I remember Steven, Steven's about aye that's right Mm I always remember working on the, on the pub I, I, I did a lot of work on there for them and er he got some panelling To all hours of the morning . he got panelling from er a big hall outside St. Helen's and er, he built this big room onto the pub oh this is going back nineteen sixty one Yeah isn't it? Yeah, yeah Is it sixty one? Yeah it's thirty, thirty one years ago he built this on and the country pub was just coming into the, you know, people were getting out in their cars and that, there was no breathalyser or anything and the could see the future in it, and he built this big room didn't he? Mm And I Oh panelled it all with er, with a a little bit of foresight wasn't it for those days? Mind you it's, it's a free house and that Oh it's a free house Yes that's right and wasn't worried then. What did he pay that for and the old post office he got them, it was cheap He got the old post office and the two cottages and the pub for two thousand, eight hundred I think Oh god, mind you it is all relative isn't it? Mind you that was in nineteen sixty Yeah, that's right I mean he fifty nine, sixty isn't it? Yeah Was it? Oh aye, but fifty eight, fifty nine It's still cheap really isn't it when you Oh that was cheap then and how I could, we'd see him passing and he used to keep, he used to live in a li , like it was a farm place further on, Sand Mill Cafe, I don't know whether you've seen it along that road Oh I don't know but anyhow it, well they, they were there and he bought the pub didn't he and they were moving on the Saturday and he came on the Saturday morning and he cried take the furniture to pieces, some of the furniture, the wardrobes and there was a dining room table that they couldn't get into the pub, could I dismantle them and re-assemble them again and that was the first time I'd ever met him weren't I? Mm And do you know what it every spare minute I had after, he was after me wasn't he? Can you do this for us, can you do that for us Can you come away from it? and then he kept, he was on, will you come and work for me will you come, I was working for Holmes at the time Mm wasn't I? And he had, he had me with making sheds, you know where the leader er printing place is now? In Mold? Over Axton Road Oh yes when you come out of Mold oh near the new what's that's right, I, well had a yard there and an old building, that's where he had, that's where he operated from and he used to get all this second hand timber demolition timber from Liverpool and Berkenhead and all that and he reckoned then that for every hundred pound he spent on demolition he had a thousand pound back Cor ten times taking it to the options that is and that's how he made his money But have they always been able to machine it Norm I mean to my mind it's always been sort of, you know, you buy, whatever they are like for afters and that and that's how you use them to make your garden shed or whatever Yeah whereas it looks as though, you know this chap, they found a way to make sure there's no metal in it and now the machine it all that, that they went through though over the years I mean, all, all he did yeah must of done was to get the second hand timber and, and he had a couple of lads off the dole in Mold there, knocking the nails well all he had to do De-nailing was break the nails that's right, yeah there were still nails left in but the farmers tab them all went mad on it for yes posts and that's right er yeah, but that, that was the main usage they had to share wasn't it? yeah But you see now, the shortage of good timber and then now they use them for furniture now the best of the timber he had Gottonam Peters, the builders that were, I mean they were building a lot then and I'm going back now to the fifties and the sixties Gottonam Peters they'd done a lot of building in Upton in Chester and erm, developments er expect building sort of thing and er, they used to buy in all the three by twos and four by threes that he could get, the good ones second hand Do you want a coffee ? No, I'd better get back Hilda Are you sure, you're welcome she's erm they er put the kettle on there, I'll be in trouble and they used to buy it all off him for studding Yes because it was dry perfect It was perfect it was perfect for that they had no movement in the ceilings or the walls or any of the plasterboard Yes, yes and all of, all of the good clean three be twos that he could find them that were season, they had, they, they took it all Mm as much as you could have That panelling though that you took out of that hall was beautiful . but that panelling , that hall panelling was beautiful, I Oh Pity those places came down wasn't it? and it's a, to, to go up there now Shame it's still there, I mean mm. that room has still got the panelling in Yeah Well did you ever go, what did you say yeah Yeah It's a terrible name for me, where did we go last week? Nantwich did you say? Nan , Nantwich Oh In oh Ah and the antique shops there Oh, it's full of antiques, there's a lovely little town Nantwich there's one chap there erm no he didn't say it is, er Adams, I said to him you got, you haven't got a place in Chester, that's another Adams, no, no he said there's no Chester, the stuff he had in one, he had a, an oak settle, sixteen something, now there's wood worm in that Yeah but the shine on it Yeah and it was just being polished by hand, you know, christ. Oh dear I'm in trouble now No I didn't I'm in trouble now Come in Margaret I'm very sorry come in, don't knock the door I knew it Come in come in I was just saying get a move on cos we've got to go to Paul's Have you spoken to him? I haven't yet no, but I think he's outside mixing cement, we said we'd go and give him a hand to put his posts in Oh so, I come in quickly hoping that you've done We hope, hope I, I'm in a Hoping that you say it was raining and er Ooh, who's been painting? oh this look's nice doesn't it? I'm just trying to remember Have you done a, is this different Norm or I tell you, it's this wall that's right This wall I put in, yeah Norman is this furniture Yes That was there Is this furniture different is it? No No, I No, that was That was over there Oh you took that was over there on that wall You go into and lounge and it's just moved every couple of days isn't it? He's lucky, he says what have you done now? Me mother was like that, me dad said I don't know whether I'm coming home to the right house Oh He says I'm gonna fall over the blooming stuff if you keep mov it's nice so isn't it? We never get it right , oh it'll be nice when it's all done So, yours was like ours was really, that, you went straight through there into the kitchen didn't you? There was a little porch here , well you could never That's do anything because I keep moving the chair there was a hole there where that arch is, there was a little hole that That's right yeah a little entrance hall And the door was down there there was a wall there wasn't it, coming down? That's right, yes, yes, going into the, going in the hall which is a terrible idea I think It's silly really isn't it? At least all the way through you know I couldn't believe it when I first saw it No I thought it Yeah Had a doorway with it Yeah, it's in its We'll get straight some time It's much better I've always wanted It's hard to imagine It's been a hard couple of weeks with this bathroom, Norm's worked a couple of days, you know and in between of course they, put just a shower and a proper shower Perhaps, when we were looking at bungalows, other than the descriptions of them and the pamphlets and they say ooh Oh what have they, what's he done in there? They say and in a hall which and we came to look at this one and it had got an inner hall and in the position was so he's had to move all the, the pipework and everything Yes, oh yes which is a big job Yes, that is We're on the fiddly bits now, finish nearly grouting and Yes, yes Now did you say you've got the same trouble as us with the conden ,condensa Still got condensation That's right yeah even with the new system Have to try and get , to get one of these trays I think and try that Yes, yeah, well we do I mean well we had to take our chimney down oh and then you see we only want one bad and then eventually that'll be like a little sitting room oh so you no ours is a, no ours is a, we had, ours only three years old, so er, yours actually It sits pretty well Oh no, we've got a space under ours And then it gets the sun at the back, you know it's not a modern one yeah, yes It means there's only those two little bits at the side What have you got on oh that's better of the system Yes that's right that's strip it now, so erm Oh I see, yes, oh that's better than really it is better we've got the hall underneath of ours Will you stop it I have asked a couple of guys at the college you know and one fellow said the tray, oh he said, you can buy this tray from a builders, oh he said you can make a, a cover and I said oh god, make it the same colour as the mat and the er This is it, this is it , I suppose if we could surround it in wood or the damage polystyrene or something, but then it looks ugly doesn't it? Oh I would of thought so Yeah bloody awful put a shower we have, gone ours, you can smell ours in here, I mean you can smell It's rotten isn't it? sometimes you know damp Mm, mm and that's all it is Well ours was loose, pipe was loose Ah what's going on here? alright, oh we've gotta change the door Yeah the door's gonna open this way gonna open the other way round then go into the airing cupboard Oh you see, no Oh I see yes see their toilet Yeah it's co , it sits on there Yeah but you still yeah get it other sides ours doesn't , ours, you can get your hand right underneath ours with got the pipe, that's right, yeah not an old fashioned one I wonder if that's why but the diff , there are two different types aren't they Norm? Are they? Yeah Oh yeah he said you still get the condensation you'd have to see Oh we still get the condensation and the floor at the back is er Yeah still there Oh yours is a, I, but, how's the, of course we've got skirting board in ours Mind you don't forget it depends how many times you flush as soon as you put and it's, it's cold water rushes in again I, I, I Oh that's nice Right once the room, once the water's got to the temperature of the room if you're not using the loo That's right Oh so you've got no bath now No, no bath you'll have to have one in the sink that's, that's nice though isn't it? we couldn't lift our leg to get in the bath But they're, but they're had a toilet too close to the house you see, so Ah that's a point now it might pull Yeah so especially what he says yeah, yeah that's the thing that's a good idea It looks nice there Norm we had one similar to this didn't we? Well in the other house we had, we had like an airing cupboard here and we took that out and had a shower where the airing cupboard was and we would of had But we had well we would of put a bath and a shower, but there isn't room we had enough room didn't we for them both We tossed, we ummed and ahhed, but anyway that's what we Yes, yeah ended up with it's better to have this hall accessed though isn't it? Oh yes To all the rooms Ah definitely I mean ours is only very, very narrow but er Terrible idea actually Mm but at least you can get never liked it, never liked it cos somebody's in the lounge and you want to take, somebody comes to the kitchen you can And that back door is where we get all the cold That's right blows this way doesn't it? but we get away with that sometimes Mm cos we've got access at yes that's right of course the wind is a bit isn't it? It's much better that though isn't it? Yes It's a much better idea, I mean ours Yeah the Every meal for instance Well if we've been on a drive like you are Yeah opposite I, I think we would have it's a better idea though isn't it because you feel as though you Oh yeah, yeah you're exposed up to there always don't you? You're forever closing the blind or the curtains Yeah, yeah, I know that's it Well all they can see is the top of my head so I'm alright that's all you need though isn't it? And then, and then, me workshop's up here Oh gosh, I mean, well you can, you can stand up and use the can't you? Well you see, the thing is when , with that there Yeah and that wall there I can put all the weight I want down the middle That's right, yeah I, that's an i , oh there's the two walls you see cos there's the two walls, yeah yeah that's right cos they're, they're, they're taking the weight cos normally the, normal the joist aren't strong enough are they? did you do a brick wall here or This is brick but that's stud wall That's stud wall, yeah ours is a stud wall at the bottom but they're just as strong you see, the, the well it doesn't, see it makes any difference yeah you've gotta Yeah, no, no difference Oh I Smaller if anything just you've got a window there we did have a light yes Yes that's a good idea Let the light in, that's an idea yeah Yeah good idea that Norm yes, yeah It does help and he twisted it so that you can put your ornaments there and there you see Yes, oh he's inventor and all oh it's easier innit, to get to the room? Pardon? It's so much easier Oh I like, I like it Well that's right , I mean you get it to I'm surprised Geoff hasn't told you this over the years Yeah, yeah it's er, there you are I suppose Oh yes , do you ever look in that chap down opposite the er, the Downs, well it'll be the Downs see some guys would have to get somebody in to do the lot wouldn't they? That's right Oh yeah Not everyone can knock a wall out or turn their hand to it No, no. I'll have a go, it doesn't, I don't say I do it right, but I'll have a go Well as you say so I remember that as a girl that's handy that isn't Norm, yeah, have this for a den Yeah and know it once when they come up here I had to fetch the telly out the bedroom you know Oh I that's nice, yeah and er, we had to set it up here and we sit here watching the telly and they'd sit here for hours Ooh I'd love that kids and er when it's time to go home I say let's get going, there's nobody here, they'd stop all night I think if they could, so Mm, that's right It's like the little one said last, she said, can we come and stay here for the weekend you know, and stay up in Aunty Bonnie's room, they call upstairs, and Margaret's face she said, well er, my god she's got some good stuff up there you know, furniture Yeah but er, they wouldn't do any harm like No I suppose No, I think our two, they'll, they'll stop eventually once they get a bit, a bit older. Michael's still a little bit small, well he's coming up to four now in May, so, but er But the first thing they do is put the video on, they know how to work it and everything Oh they do, yeah, when we go down er, er down to Alan's they, David he's got it all Yeah and Michael is coming, he's, he's watching what David's doing and he's following suit now and he's only four. Got this video game now, they know how to work all these Yeah, oh I and I can't stand the noise me, I hear it going beep, beep, beep, beep, beep, beep Yeah, yeah, oh I Yeah, you've got to have the interest ain't you Norman? Of course you see they're growing up with them sort of things, we That's all they know we, we er, we had to make it up me , I, I got, I took me old three put out the other day and so they said got your got the college ones you know I about ten now and they're all in this white ones are metric, she said what the hell's this she said, I mean I've had it thirty four, five years something like that, forty years Yeah what the bloody hell's this she said? I said they're feet and inches, what do you want, oh, oh he said er , he's a fellow, he's a fellow of about thirty you know The one I've got is er, is like, they call it a bilingual it's, it's metric and Yeah you can, yeah, but I think me in inches I know it's a Oh I do, I do and my mates is on er, of course they've been brought up with the metric system you see and he's Yeah, I'm not interested in it , it's stupid really, cos it's easy say er seven sixty and I er, I er have to think now Oh , it seems as come again in my landing it seems a hell of a lot long way to me Yeah, and of course they say it's easier, but if you've been brought up with it, well yes it's dead easier What you show for? Your photograph He lives on the common Oh I've seen this one, this is er, this is er Ame's is here Ame's is about there yes yes and there post office there's a cosy cafe somewhere that's cosy cafe that's it, yeah and doctor Colliers was here this is the post office the house, that's the hedge all this has gone now Yes That's where the Midland Bank is there isn't it? and on the corner here is this road, where you go park road there, they used to have a place where they killed pigs and made black puddings in the middle of main street you can imagine and the, there was the moth , was the I was too quite in those days mother and she only had the one daughter and the daughter got married and oh she had about oh ten or eleven children and they're all running round in this back yard Oh I can remember about like chickens Well can imagine fancying the black pudding oh my god they had a shop here one time There Ken's uncle Who's that? was it, had a shop on the end yes, I wasn't going to say anything, who he is I wasn't sure whether it was that one, was it Griffiths their name or Oh dear What was his step dad's name? and then you, you know Colin that was the mayor Mm well, there was, after this there was a row of houses with a little shop on the end and her mother kept that shop, Colin his wife, Romana is it? Romana Romana I her mother had the shop misery oh cheerful, well his, his father was a step brother to my dad and do you know, how on earth we're related I'll never know cos she's the biggest toryism Oh aye Colin's the same Yeah but his dad wasn't old John wasn't Wasn't he really? Oh no No Isn't it funny? He was a miner in Staunch Bloody hell and he had all the boys pretty well turned out like that, cos that's another brother who used to come with the mail with the wooden hand Oh yes Jo er Oh I know that's Colin's brother postman that's right, yes postman isn't he? That's right, yes Erm he used to have a hook didn't he? Yes the father was a very queer Victoria Avenue old, oh is, liked his drink, always drunk, you know, when I remembered him, didn't see that much of him, but erm, how Colin never turned like that I never know Mm, mm no accounting for Mind you he's a bit of a capitalist now Oh I know sold, sold that land and er well I don't say it was, it was Romana's mum and dad, I think they owned that row of houses and the shop Oh yes Oh, ah and they sold that and they bought that house between them Romana's mum and dad Mm So and Romana's the only child Oh I see so Colin and Romana went in with them Mm so they were left all that They inherited it With the money oh yes and then again on the Council Oh they think they're it don't they? Mind you that shouldn't make I've never liked him They were handy for the Conservative club there Well that's right, yes just down the road isn't it? Peter, Peter's another Peter What fifty yards, they'd have to walk is another one isn't he? Who's that? Peter He's, he's a big name Oh yes isn't he? yes But he's moaning to me the other week about you know, er and I bloody near said to him, well er, things have come back on you know, but I should of Is he the one who's dad had the electrical shop? That's right, yeah Oh Robert's it is now isn't it? He's taken over But er saying about the system, the pressure and that you know I don't believe a bloody thing Doesn't he drink a lot? Is he the one who drinks or is it his brother? Oh I don't know about this There's one that's practically alcoholic Is he, oh Well I don't think it would be I don't know That's what we must I think that I think they put that that er why Dennis, Dennis is the one isn't he? Dennis is the one isn't it that drinks a lot? Cos he's the one that split up with his wife whom I believe Yes, he's the one , Peter's the young one isn't he? That's right, yes He used to come after me for music lesson every week, I can always Yeah remember as I was coming out, he was going in Well his son Charlie was a great mate of our Rob's Of our Rob's Oh yes as well yeah who was a bit of a tearaway well Mrs used to teach his music, she lived on the common at one time in one of those houses by Colin Mm er, er, her son was a teacher up at the school Ivor Oh Oh yes yes, yes and his brother got in trouble through embezzlement didn't he? He embezzled the bank That's right, yeah Me dad always said he Pat used to tell us about it yes I remember, that was years ago Well his dad always said he got off he was a pianist wasn't he was, he was, he used to play in the what's a name The masonic No the school His old , Ivor's older brother When we first went to the concerts That's right it was always him Was that him was it? Rosy cheeks Yes Oh Dark, well he hasn't got dark hair now obviously I can remember that now I had dark hair then Yes, we all had dark hair then Now look at it Was that a traction engine there? Norman It is That'll be one of the old no I think it's, it's one of old Jenkinson's bosses A steam roller Is it? I was gonna say it looks like a bus Yes Is it? Yeah Yes, you know Jenkinson's up at the cross I haven't got my proper glasses on Steam bus? Oh yeah, I and Yes Bloody hell you're not Oh yeah You know Jenkinson's up at the cross? Mm Well his father used to have the, the garage as you turn into Patrons Road No I think it's about nineteen hundred that one Mm there's a little garage by the, by the chapel there is it? Mm, that's right yeah, on the left Yes that's right, it could be because those steamers they, I well his father owned that fo , for years and it Phil had the shop, and then Don't know that they did any, Victorian they ran the buses from Mold to Buckley Mm and down to the station, used to come from the, from the station Mm Buckley station right up through Buckley Mm and it was er a penny each way from across to Mold and when he sold out to Crosswell, old Jenkins stipulated that for so many years they had to keep penny each way Keep the penny safe and we had the cheapest fares for many years because of that Yeah Oh he was a funny old chap, he was erm, very religious family they were, quite a, a couple of them went to be ministers, they were a big family Mm but erm Look at these lads here So they you know with the cams Yeah Working down the ruddy mines Oh I the tea cam, yeah all the ooh brick yards all the brick, yeah, well er, it was er mostly brick yard round then wasn't it? You see there on the common there, there was a colliery wasn't there? Yeah That's right, yeah yes, in fact when we were moving up here from er, from Warwickshire, they er Many years ago oh it was cosy Oh yeah they, they er, the building society which was the insurance company wasn't it that we had the mortgage through? And they, they asked us about mines in the area and we said mines Oh about mines in the, yeah, oh yeah didn't know there'd be mining up here, you know No, no and er, anyway we checked with the er solicitor It must of been a and he said oh you know about that, all was in I think Yeah This is it Yeah Well we used to play on what we call the Bonks, down erm bet, you know Becketts Lane? Mm Well from Becketts Lane you go down there Mm go, er along a lane and then what we, what we called the Bonks were there, they were the old er workings Where they'd tipped the waste was it? Yes Mm which had grown over with grass Ah, yeah and there were about three of them and I know they had shafts and me mother used to say keep away from those shafts Yes Yeah because they weren't even fenced properly Oh no Mm and there's still and I'd still be there there's still one down at the plantation, you know er Yes down Drury Yes Mm which, well it was haven't been there for many years down the Gooedy The what? Why the Gooedy, that path down there was always known as the Gooedy The Gooedy, that's Funny people there are And the Scotsman said that I don't know That's er Buckley is it, Buckley talk that is, yeah, yeah, yeah Well, but you know, they have nicknames, the Buckley people always erm, you know there was one live by us called Dirty Joe and another Mucky Robin and you know, we just cheek me, and I said to me mum one day why was that? Well she said they used to pass each other on the way to, going to work and er, one would say it's dirty this morning Joe aye it, it mucky Robin and that's how we got it, the names you know and there was another one now, where That's a cracker erm Sam Sodding, and it used to, but I used to say to mother why did they call him Sam Sodding? Oh I can't tell you that I wouldn't never discuss things like that, until I got about twenty five, you know neighbours or not, and I said why did they call him? Well she said they got married and the baby came that night and he went about town now by god he came sodding Oh, aye, that's a cracker that one, I like that. how you get a name, isn't it, you know, really laugh about it. A miracle baby Yes, that's right oh dear Oh dear well you've certainly made a nice job of it here anyway. Well it'll come Margaret You, I think you've got over the erm, the dusty bit of it now. Well this is it You're sort of getting it a bit more this is it liveable Yeah The last couple of weeks has been dust everywhere Yeah but it's coming on once, well you know, once you're knocking walls out, it's, it's mucky Oh the oh all over the house, you can't keep it Well I said to him if we have any more in one spot walls, he was knocking to do them pipes, I said if we have any more holes in that wall, I said we'd be completely with I was, what I was afraid of, we'd end up with a house on, on, on a tilt On a tilt He was knocking holes here, he was knocking holes there Oh dear and it's not his favourite job is holes Er, I'll tell you what it's had a right old hammering since you've been here, no? Oh yeah Oh ours was like that, you know, I used to feel quite a shame Oh, ours was worse because for eighteen months I mean there was this sledgehammer and all you could hear was boom, boom I like, I like and he was knocking walls out Do you wanna finish her off, bring a Don't be horrible you She'd eat it, wouldn't she you know? She must I often thought what the neighbours that and, you know, and Mrs who used to lived here then Yes, yes I mean, I bet she That's what we said was chomping away trying to listen to it Well as soon as you came to put the shed up the dust that was the first time we had an inkling there was anything, and that was the Sunday before we moved and he said do you mind if I come and bring the shed up and then I can stop in there and I go and have, a, anyway, he came with Alan and she made you a cup of coffee didn't she? Aye, Alan met me here That's right, made a cup of coffee and that and then, he was, just came back and she said you haven't finished, he said yes, she said I didn't hear you knocking, oh no he said, well I built it all, you know, it's all ready made and I built it ready for the bolts and, oh I thought you would of been knocking, I've got some knocking here you know I told you didn't I That was the first inkling we'd ever had Did she have her cloth in her hand, did she? Always like this, ready to wipe something Oh dear I was apologising for the noise wasn't I? Blokes stand still or she'll have you Oh god, yeah with a broom, broom in her hand yes, she was you know yeah well I'm That'll be all I said you haven't polished that grot iron fence out there have you? No, no, she flipped No, no she's painted it instead so I painted wash colour, so when the was comes through you can't see it you won't be able to tell the difference If we'd known we would of said a few things A method in your madness isn't it? It is, yes I got a surprise I tell you what though , I must say there's less water here since, she's, she's left in the garden because it used to lay here didn't it? Yeah, it seemed to be very wet over this side ooh terrible all the time bailing out Well listen, get, go, go what's the name of that place? Well he knows Cuckoo's nest Oh cuckoo's nest Cuckoo's nest, yeah that's the place We'll have a look around We bought some after we had laid out for most of ours Cheaper than anywhere Norm we find, we found out about that place and it was, it was a third cheaper you know We spent, it cost us double and we, then it was the same thing, same place, they were getting selling it to us weren't they? Selling to us If we get this front here partly here done for another fifty pence per slab it'll be a lot easier Mm and just do a bed in the corner I thought Well I thought if I can pave this front here Mm I can go into the second hand car business then, I can go all the way down Caravans Norm with the tickets on caravans or something Caravans Yeah Yeah get a couple of No they're too high they a couple of gearboxes on the lawn you know and the go that's what you want That's all I always wanted to do in the lodge with a, with a little field at the side and all, I wanted to get a load of cars and dismantle them Have your own little yard but er, I'd of had That was terrible that Norm, there was one, there was one in North Street when I was doing that bit of collecting you know, and the people next, either side they'd bought these council houses, you know, it's a shame really and these I, I, went, erm I tried to phone Paul Got to get back to Paul I tried to phone Paul, so I've got to go and ring him an old car there in bits and then an engine in one corner it is gearbox, bolts he wants to clean them up, he's got a bit of acid, I'll clean them up Yeah, and you had the old bricks We had the old bricks from our chimney They came out where I'd put the old door on the, you see where I've put the door here One thing about it is you get plenty of fresh air here don't you? Lovely, lovely I mean it's nice now Oh aye yeah I don't like still weather me No I don't like it too windy, I don't like wind and rain together No, but but a nice gentle wind I love I always say if you're well you can face anything Oh of course you can if you feel rotten my mother always , I used to say to her was I born in a gale, cos she could never get me in if the wind was blowing Aye, yes and I do like wind, I don't like still weather I don't like wind, windy and wet if you're out, cos you can get really cold No, two together like last week chilled, yeah terrible, I couldn't open the door even to ask Geoff how Mary was cos No it was blowing straight in here with the other one I used to hate that when I was collecting Mm you know and you'd stand on the doors then, ooh, you'd be really chilled and some of them opened the door an inch I know, and once you get wet isn't it? Oh yes, you can't get warm then Oh you can't Kelly keeps you jangling, is it Jessie, no, Arthur's wife? Oh Oh is it Jessie? terrible isn't she? Is it Jessie? I don't know her name you know She's from Liverpool Yes she keep, goes on and do you know three times a day that poor dog walks I know every day Well she waits me sometimes go over the field and I said to try it town we're only just off the main road Mm and er it was handy for the school, like it was only five, ten minutes at the most Yeah to walk to the school That's right so it's Well think about it for a long time Then you gotta er, think about getting to the post office It's a heck of a place isn't it Margaret? It can be done on the cheap Norm definitely Ah? have to be done on the cheap Have to get some cheap timber and er It will Mine will have to be a lot cheaper than that Huh, ours will have to be even I shut, I shut a limit at three hundred and fifty Or get plastic one, plastic sheeting That'll have to be for the sheets Yeah, yeah I've got everything else now Of course Have you? Oh well you're that roofing's quite expensive isn't it? That is eighty pound a sheet Yeah, yeah well Robin's cost him about four hundred pounds Our old neigh , our old neighbour has these yeah patio doors, what were they? Oh they like the louvre? No patio doors No Oh big Oh aluminium doors they are Yes and he, he said to Norman do you want these, he bought them for somewhere for the house No he hadn't, he, they took a house down and demolished the house That was it inside of Liverpool Oh they took those out, yeah and his mate had one and he had the other one and he said I'll never be able to use them he said and they're in the way, can you do anything with them? So So they'll do alright won't they? Mm For a conservatory Mm you know? Yeah So what are you gonna do when you run out of jobs Norman? Er, then I'm gonna, them I'm gonna buy me caravanette Your caravan and do the tours Go touring then round the country Yeah Yes always Would you like that? Yes It's a good idea that. There's so many places to see in this country and if the country If you've got enough money left after finish all this Well yes , yes, that's a small consideration He goes for the plastic Well I keep trying the pools every week, they might just Oh, ah, it's our turn Just click at the right time it's our turn to win now Never won an argument I've been waiting for forty years for it Yeah yeah, yeah You ran it for so long and then He's had it two years, but Oh two years oh yeah, yeah what's happening Oh yes, yes in er oh yes Yeah problems and they're upping them all so he thought well I'll get out while the going's good Yeah so I put it in the paper and luckily somebody came along Yes Got a good price, good Yeah Anyway he, he has to keep changing for his work because they get a, a mileage allowance with the council Yeah and they've got to keep them up to scratch It doesn't pay to keep them er, for a long time No but he's still doing the raffles? Oh try anything Get another one? try anything I will Yeah, oh aye, yeah yeah, but he was here the other Sunday and he, he, they were, he, he was reading my paper and he come back and he the following Sunday he said you haven't got last Sunday's paper mum, I said I don't know I might, oh I think I threw it out, anyway just happened to find it, it was something he read of some woman that were meddling on the pools and the, the, what she'd used, you know and the Method way she Yeah done it, she said I was reading it here and I meant to ask you for the, she said, anyway when he come back I said have you found them out, alright, he said I've had a go he said it's just your luck though isn't it? you get so many more lines on this or something, it's just your luck There's thousands of people do it every week I've used the same numbers for years I just put the numbers I like down and I don't know anything about football We've done the same numbers every week It's either the one above or the one below Yeah Yeah The er Yeah He does all the fives and I do well if we hear, if we hear a terrible scream one weekend, we'll know it's happened You will yeah we'll be off We'll come round with the for you Well we'll see you folks, cheerio Cheerio Bye So have you got enough stuff have you Paul enough sand? Just about, yeah, just, just about Oh got three more holes to fill so Oh alright just about got enough there, now Yeah Is that, oh you've got some more cement Yeah, it should just about so what we done yesterday most of us mix it in the barrel you see Yeah so it's pretty hard work Yeah Oh it is, very, very heavy turning over they've been done for many years so we've done about up to about a foot cos this concrete, now yeah it's a lot easier material say the holes are big enough anyway, so they should be, there shouldn't be any movement there I wouldn't of thought Made a bit of a mistake on the holes we What size? we had further over than what we thought we've had to dig a little bit out oh no have you? Oh but it's been alright cos the sands quite Aye, yeah, well it's not quite the same where we are Right well we're going now, cheerio then I came here sweating thinking that I might have to do some work I phoned you about three times Thank god Joe's here Yeah Kathy didn't mention about the chemicals She said she was gonna get hold of them but she said she's gotta Just wondered if she could you know I think she's still trying Yeah Brill that It's alright ain't it? Yeah They're a bit snaky, and I noticed, yeah tell you I've got to see Carrie and we drop this OK Paul Alright love see you later anyway, cheerio Paul How's it going love? Alright We got out of a job then, nicely Oh I, he's done it alright has he? Well it, no his friend Joe, one of the other policemen and, they done most of it, I mean we had to get the shopping didn't we? We helped them with three posts yeah aye, on your plate Everything OK. Bought that New Zealander first dictionary Oh great long time ago Oh he could do with that cos Emily's always asking me I get some Yeah I thought it was another book on Mediterranean cooking there somewhere A big one what I I'm sure I've seen one on Mediterranean cooking I don't know No it's only a small one, but it's an old Oh that was a New Zealand unless mum's taking that, I know she's reading oh through them all a few times so Ital , was it Italian or Mediterranean? Mediterranean Mediterranean, I'm sure it's Oh Mediterranean Spanish, French, Italian, you know, erm What are these books? Do you want a yeah we're gonna put these castors in shall we? Yeah do you need a hammer for those? There's a hammer in there No, no, just, they just drop in oh yeah I don't know whether it's still open or not, perhaps I'll have to go there Yes that's what I mentioned Erm, ah, over the er I have this, because I wouldn't of understand any of that if I had that and this really explains a lot of it. Is that a new one or the same? No that's the library book I'm reading The one that, yes to explain yes what's happened, but it does say in it that at the beginning that you assume that he is a youth because he's got, come from university, but when he's in the graveyard the fellow, it, it comes out that he's thirty isn't he? You know when he's suggest that I thirty three years ago Well I didn't think, well yeah Mm he's saying that perhaps Shakespeare yes, I felt that he had to justify this long length of time, mm oh I see, yes , yes, yes in a way he was thinking mentally, he was older than twenty Mm Yes and yet at the beginning he said the king said we don't want you to go back to school, it sounds funny going back to school Well, well Mm There's a few sort of erm bits about it that he's obviously changed or Adapted Yeah, or somebody's changed and cos they say to be or not to be doesn't fit in as well where it is and it should of been Mm somewhere else Mm Oh god I, I, I mean I , the books just been written on that Is it? Well I was gonna say what's that? Rosemary Conley Oh, is it any oh is it very strenuous sort of thing? Oh no, no, blimey, oh, not much, no jumping about otherwise there'll be an earthquake in here but I've lost a few pounds since last week. I got a sponsored form as well Oh I need to take that back for Friday because Kelly and Julia , cos she got on it she was seven, under seven stone she was eleven stone something Didn't ring the bell did it, when you got off? No, ping, ding, ding, ding, did you see those two women that had the operations? No, I erm No we saw the photographs of er one no I read about it Yeah, it was on last night One was like this Did you watch it? God ooh, the operation I was nearly heaving I was oh how awful got to sew them up Staple the stomach, yeah. Do they, they must do it Good grief inside obviously Yeah Yeah they cut them open like and it's a big scar right the way down there Your stomach go down there What and then they dig it, they don't seem to care do they when they're operating on somebody? there er, oh right They're just bits of flesh , gee whiz And then they got this haven't got the big like gun in like a staple thing it was, but it was a la , it was an extended one, fitted inside this rubber hose and then, clamp it and they only have a little bit of stomach left so they can't eat proper meals To the eleventh of June they've got after that Mm Mm and there were two women that had it done, that big one had, had it done four times That's right yeah Good the third time it burst it burst because she kept, she kept on eating didn't she? Kept stopping and then the second time she had it done And they've got to open her up every time Yep obviously the second time she had it done and then, they had to remove it because she went down to seven stone That's right yes from twenty I read that, so, did she She could of died like you know, so they had to She became anorexic then did she? Mm, they had to take it off and she went the other way then Well it said she's a nice, in the paper last an evening leading review, it said er she is now a ni , a trimmed erm ten stone, oh a size twelve Yeah she had it, she was just going into theatre at the end of the programme, she was having it done for the fourth time Good heav , well it said they only So do this operation if, if erm there About thirteen stone aye are health reasons for it as well as being grossly overweight twenty stone like, you know Oh She was only thirteen stone when they took her in that last time, she was massive, she must of only been about five foot Yeah, well this is it, she's only short Ah, a big woman ah do you know aye yeah and the other one was erm a mother of two and she said that even when she was younger she was always overweight and she could never sort of go out with anybody nice and she just settled for anybody sort of thing, I felt sorry for her husband, mind you saying this like, cos he looked a bit thick and er anyway she went and had it done and erm she was upset after she had it done like it must of hurt you know she was crying Oh dear and all that, and she could only eat liquid food for six weeks Mm cos your stomach, I don't know whether your stomach wouldn't tolerate the Solids yeah, and er, well anyway she down, she was like a model at the end Mm really slim So and she was She changed completely, she was going out then, she was going keep fit now Personality change keep fit four times a week and he, he And er didn't like it the husband Oh Well is this one who and he said she ditch, she ditched her husband and got she's got a new man or something I don't know This was, this is what it said last night, one of them that lost the weight said, she said it must of been her, yeah Oh maybe that's what happened in the end, that must be her, yeah said she was with a new husband the other one was divorced wasn't she? Oh I don't, I didn't see it you see, I knew it, it was only what I read Well the other one that had it done four times said oh, I'm on my own now with the little boy, so she was before the programme was made Mm but the other one, they did this vi video diary that they each spoke on and he was getting more upset, the more weight she lost he was more discontent in saying that Oh she's not there for me any more and she's Oh only obsessed with herself and Mm I suppose she was used to her filling an armchair every night and just sitting there all night and not doing anything content with that Yeah No life that though is it for a younger person? Well she said I wasn't living I was just How old was she? I don't know, she didn't half change, she had her hair permed, after she lost a lot of weight Looked like a different person I suppose she had contact lenses she looked really nice actually Mm Smartened herself up Mm That's what you ought to do Oh god You cheeky devil get that stapler, got one in the garage ah, you want to see some of the twenty five year olds going to town down here I'm only ten and a half stone with dyed blonde hair I know, yeah, tremendous aren't they? big arms I tell you what, do you ever remember Olive's, oh I don't think you ever saw her, Olive's niece she used to work at No, not unless I saw that wedding that time I don't know. She was enormous, what the devil was her name? Bigger than Olive? Her mum was Ann , that was Olive's sister Ann and what was, what was the do at the not Olive from work? Er yeah Mm remember big Olive that used to go to my school? Yes, that's right Short hair like a bit of a moron? Yeah, yeah, er, oh no I think you're thinking of a different Olive No Oh No, Olive that used to work when I worked for Laura Ashley's Oh erm she was hefty though and her sister Ann used to be enormous years ago this is, and erm she went on a, a diet, I don't know what, how, how she lost the weight but she did and I, I hadn't seen her for some years and I remember her coming to the factory this day, and she came in and she, she used to do er her flower shop, she used to do flower arrangements and the girls at work would order them you know? Mm And she came in this day with these flowers and spoke to me and I didn't know who she was Didn't even recognise her Mm, mm I felt so ashamed because I didn't recognise her and she was sort of talking away to me as though, you know, and I thought oh very friendly person, you know? Yeah And I didn't realise it was her no one didn't recognise her Well, she'd lost that much weight, now she's very conscious from then on, you know, she's sort of kept her weight down, but her daughter also had a job at our place and she was gross, I mean, Olive and Ann had both been huge women, but, but this daughter, and she was only about five feet tall and er, I don't know what her weight was but it was one of those What is it? Got your tape recorder going? sort of Oh one of those size people you'll turn your head Oh yeah she coul , I mean she just looked like a Michelin man, as though somebody pumped her up with a yeah it was, oh it was terrible and I thought what a strain that must be on her heart, you know, carrying all that weight This is it medical , no wonder the doctors want you to lose weight well well I mean the heart's the most obvious organ, but I mean it must put a strain on everything else I haven't noticed I've lost any weight only that me clothes have gone a bit loose, it must be only a couple of pounds literally but on Mrs scales I'm half a stone lighter, but I don't think so by tomorrow night I'll be about eleven, ten So is it tomorrow night Brownies? The weigh in The weigh in I was talking to somebody in bread shop and she's doing it as well Does anyone ever ring the bell Carrie? All the Brownies' mums are gonna be wasting away All the mums Does anyone, when they stand on the scales It was funny though, when I went to get on the scales everybody went phew All the heads crowding round to see I know, I was like that, oh dear and those that are smaller their faces light up Yeah, I'm OK A lady was only ten stone I bet there weren't but she was only about four foot eleven Oh, so she was still overweight then? but she was the lightest I think, er, oh no, Brown Owl Brown Owl need to lose I suppose she was saying oh I can't get rid of it, all the other Brown Owl needs to lose a few feathers for the summer She doesn't no, no Oh she's got a lovely figure, she wears these culottes right, she's got these skinny legs like the kids she doesn't need to bother, but er, she's I don't realise what I look like sometimes until I was exercising, looking in the mirror, god I wish I could remove me chest like, you know, I'd love to have a, a small chest like you know must be like Nana Mm, yeah, I think you take after your grandma Well I had me hair cut as well layered I was gonna say to you when we came in Oh it's nice it looks better have you had it trimmed? It looks nice, yeah Yeah I've had mine highlighted Highlighted with grey Ironed Yeah, lowlights I'm gonna get style it's a good job you gonna see haven't had those clippers I use on Scott, there'll be nothing left just a few little whiskers That one in erm, is it Lower Bridge Street, that Brian goes to? He said it's nice, you get a cup of coffee oh it's great Er Chester , charge you a fortune though I was gonna say he pays the earth but they don't do anything for a hair cut Just give you a cup of coffee I mean see do that and me hair Who knows so what have they done, oh they put these, I don't know what they do, they set it, or Yeah, he has They put a wash and a blow dry he has it He has a blow dry Are they bad those things? Do they have a I mean we no he just has a curls, seemed to be curls here We saw him one week and he looked like blooming Julian Caesar the way they'd cut it and I couldn't help it, I just, immediately He's so gullible, honestly Brian is said, what have you done to your hair? You know and Oh and I oh my god I shouldn't of said that you know, he's paid a fortune to have this freebie That's what I say to you and you don't like it Well he, what he has it permed does he then? No, no don't style They dry it I suppose He has got curly hair they style it it's just the way they cut it and it's sort of all these little curls Round the front at, at the front, yeah I expected to see the laurel leaf in the back you know He must of gone in on the granny department and Oh dear In my day, you got a short back and sides, everyone got Whether you wanted it or not everyone got the same everybody had the same I don't like the cer I mean at the moment they've got it short, but they have it long here and long at the back and then everywhere else short, short back and sides It's horrible that is It looks terrible it does, I'd have it one way or the other Mm either long or short, but not He's a Scott doesn't he? Scott's yeah, his is made at the moment, but I was erm Gemma came for tea last night and she wears glasses she's long sighted in one eye and er, anyway I noticed she's not wearing them as much now, so I said to her mum what's happening? Mm So she said oh she hasn't got to wear them as much now she said her eyes have improved, you know, oh she looks really weird without them on and I saw her like this Funny you get used to Naked Yes, yes yes, yes Is she alright now without them or does she have to wear them part of the time? Yeah she said she has to wear them for the television Mm and the writing and reading, but I mean before they were on all the time All the time like Scott so Mm I said oh my god Scott you know Mm I mean I don't want him to wear them all the time Well I mean he doesn't wear them all the time does he? Yes he does Does he? He has to wear them all the time, but he doesn't wear them all the time Mm, well he sh when he's leaping about he'll take them off When he's fighting and all It's corrective you see now this is the idea of it Yeah Mm that's what I thought as the, as his eyes are developing Yeah, maybe they will be that later on Oh yes but his are a lot thicker than Gemma's though Oh cos I looked through Gemma's I could You could see the other side of the room Yeah Coca Cola's but er, he was in trouble yesterday at school for being naughty Really? he got called out in front of the school What er What on earth did he do? did you get the whole story Talking the whole story He's talking Well he whispered to me last night, you know, then of course Laura told me everything cos she was there Yeah she blabbed Yeah but he's it's handy to have a squealer in the family innit? I really can't wait for Sally to What happened then? but when I went in the other week, they all sit in a circle like that, then there's a space and the teacher stands there and she was telling a story about the independent princess who doesn't fall in love with the prince in the end, it was a quite funny story but she just suddenly went, you and she grabbed hold of this lad, and dragged, she didn't hit him or anything, you know, but I just, oh I thought oh god, you know, I felt so sorry for this kid like, dragged him out to the back,you were talking weren't you? You know, she made him sit down in the middle in front of everybody you see Mm I mean, that was the embarrassing bit, so that's what Mm must of happened to Scott you see? Mm So, I have told him before because he has been told off before for talking you know at the back Mm he said mum Shane keeps saying to me Scott, Scott, Scott Yes I said well you just have to give him the deaf ear I said otherwise you'll become, I said and he'll get caught out eventually Mm they'll see him Mm and, they will eventually Mm, some of them don't care you see I mean it's, it's the sort of thing we have and Scott's a bit more sensitive like, you know, because he was crying last time, Laura said he was nearly crying over it Nearly I said look son, I said if you're gonna be naughty Mm I said well it's up to the teachers, I said, you can't expect me, I mean if there was if he was picked on I would go down there but I mean if he's being naughty then it's up to the teachers to sort him out Yeah, yeah But they soon forget it I mean the thing is they've got to they've got to break them up now while they're young They don't give the cane do they? Yeah No they don't give the cane I mean they've got to understand that when the teacher tells them to do something that Yeah that's what they're supposed to do, I mean and if they do break the rules they've, they've got to accept the consequences and it's as simple as that As that, yeah that's what I said, I said, they have to go in a yellow book if they're really naughty which he hasn't done yet and then they have to go to Mrs so I said well you'll be going to Mrs if you don't Mrs Yeah, you'll be going to her. I bet they dawdle to go to Mrs You can imagine these lads can't you all giggling together at the back Yeah, I mean they're only little aren't they? But er Naughtier than the girls though, can't let the girls I mean it's all part really, of, of learning respect for the teachers and Mm and adults isn't it? You know if they think they can do just as they like at that age, well I mean er the, the some of them er when they're fifteen or sixteen This is it yeah, when they get bigger than you they're uncontrollable Yeah, exactly, you know, but er he just reminds me of Robin like, you know, and he's got this brilliant way of ducking you know when he goes to swipe him, he can duck like that you know, before I've even thought I was gonna even hit him he's gone like that hit the pavement He's got that sort of , he's got that sonar device,tells you what's coming and even when I yell at him times he's gone, you know, I don't know I could never connect when I was trying to wallop Paul and Rob but Emily doesn't do that or Laura We used to break all kind of speed limits getting out of the door My mum used to connect and hurt herself Well maybe it's a good job I don't because I've got a thick head Some hand but he doesn't tend to show me up as much now thank goodness, but late one night he really went naughty, you know when they look at you like that sideways and they know that you can't wallop them because those Yes, yes in front of them, so I waited until I got home and took me slipper off and whacked his bum, I said the next time I said that's what's gonna happen, I said you can do what you like when we go out I said but just remember what you'll get when we come back Ooh, there's cruel Yeah, he was saying all the way back, please mummy don't hit me Yes erm Cruel mother I really laugh sometimes beating us up anticipation cos I nearly give him but there's nobody else about the it's so frustrating isn't it when you're in the middle of a crowded shop you know Ooh and they look at you as you just said as, you know, you're powerless, you can't do anything now That's it, yeah, they know you can't Well no you could wallop them there and then I suppose Ooh what and get all the of all the grand mothers there Oh I know it's terrible , it's terrible now oh you shouldn't let them, er, and the, the thing is somebody else argues on their behalf then they think they can get away with it more Well they soon feel undermined, yes or, or the kid, the kid I just say to them now goes to the police they were watching this thing about erm, what do you call it child thing Child watch on the telly the other night and they were showing this fellow scragging the kids in the kitchen, god and I thought oh, because they were all watching it, you know, oh they might ring them No I think it's I mean I heard, you hear these tales but I think it's as you bring them up isn't it? If you keep at them and Yeah, because I mean we laugh about it you know Yes I don't smack them or I just threaten them, but er he is the one that You've got to be firm Yeah, well he is the one that needs keeping an eye on Yeah but Julia said to me before she came round with Hayden she said er, cos her mum and dad are still there, not her mum and dad, her mum and step dad are still there, they're only giving them forty pounds for nine weeks, forty pounds towards the mortgage like you know, been there since after Christmas and erm, anyway she said ooh she said, Steve said er, that's her husband, said to me ooh isn't Emily well mannered she said, she doesn't walk in the house, she waits in the doorstep you know their Layla charges in like you know, straight in Go away you where's the biscuits? unlike Kelly and David when they come round, they just walk in, you know Yes she's very quite and sensitive isn't she? it doesn't matter you should say, takes after her mum Yeah mm it isn't some ways, yeah but what about when they're naughty they don't take after me Oh well can't say that No I mean, they're not, they're, they're quite well behaved really, but that's, that's only the way you you teach them to You do get some kids though no matter where they are, who's house they go into that you know, strangers and they, they behave in a sort of a, a wild fashion don't they? Yeah maybe they're too when they're at home Whereas most kids, I don't know I think it's just the way they give them too much lead er, I mean our kids were always quiet weren't they when we went out? Used to drag them in that's why When they were at home you don't behave when we go out or somebody said do you want so and so, no thanks Yeah dying to have it When they mean yes When they want to yes I used to You have to persuade them you know, go on You're right which is good really When said to me about Pauline's kids her three lads, not the baby like the two lads she said, oh she said er they came to play one night, or they came for tea or something and she goes to work at night you know, she said Paul was looking after them and she said, he said you could hear all this banging up and down the stairs, he said, bloody hell he said they were going mad, and I thought that's what Tom and Hannah do when they come here, I said your two bang up and down like bloody anything I said that's normal, you know for kids. Mm She said, oh she said he doesn't want them to come again, well I said he should of just shouted I said don't bang them down stairs, you know? Mm Moan, moan, moan, moan, moan, moan Well this is it, they want to run up and down when they're little, I mean, they gotta expand that energy when they get especially if they get in a bigger house Yes, more space, more rooms to run in Let's see what we can do with this one Yeah, mm My Hayley's a bit like that, jumping all over me this morning can't So I take it Laura's got her sinus problem sorted out did she? Yeah Not through your mouth, through your nose, anyway it must of righted itself, she's still full of cold but you know, when you get that achy feeling cos she said it aches It grabs you Mm Oh and she got, swallowed a tooth yesterday at school That one's that been No, hang on Oh no not that one, that's still there The one at the bottom, that's unbelievable that I didn't think it was very wobbly, but she said she swallowed it and there's a load of blood at the ramp at school so, so I said that must of been nice for the teachers, mind, but the other one I found Is this a bottom tooth now she's ? The bottom one yeah, at the side Mm I baffled her last night the front one again, I was swinging Emily around and banged her in the mouth, if it hadn't of been there it wouldn't of cut her gum and went into her lip and her gum Oh good lord Oh it was in a right mess, but it still didn't come out It's hanging on by a thread all of that, I can't psyche myself up to yank it out, so Mm it'll probably twang back in again You could al you could always take her to the dent , is the other tooth in front of it or behind it? Behind it, yeah the other Behind dentist said no, they don't want, they don't like taking them out They don't like to do it what even in under those, I mean the other tooth's nearly the same size, this is what happened with that tooth of mine there, I was It was growing behind it, the other one wouldn't come out and eventually the to , this tooth that's here now Mm was the same length as the one in front so its, honestly it was and eventually of course it did come out and there's always been a gap because the one behind Behind, you know everybody you couldn't straighten out talk to the dentist's say kids have got to wear braces, so just about everybody has been told Oh gotta wear braces so I always thought it was only Canada that do it with Yeah The Americans do that a lot they're very light weight ones now aren't they? Oh yes , yes, marvellous so it's glasses, braces and grom grommets in their ears now Grommets? Yeah Who had grommets is it or grommet? Yes it is a grommet well Nearly every nearly everybody you speak to, if they've got erm What on earth for? I think it's because the passages are so small they get bunged up, I know Anna across the road's got it done once but er Michelle said they've come out, but er, they're supposed to drain them so she said What? Every morning they're supposed to have a load of gunk on the pillow where it's drained out Oh god but she said er, they didn't do too well with Anna because it didn't drain and this is an operation to actually to have this inserted? Yeah, yeah, they just put them in their eardrum part Mm and it's supposed to just leak out through to drain it instead of, cos she was nearly deaf you see, and er God there's a few people have now said that their Oh I've never heard of that it must be a lot of them if it isn't sorted out have them the no , what do you call them the adenoids Sinuses and the Mm and the tonsils and their done as well at the same time Yeah and that tends to clear Well the adenoids must be, I mean must, I always think of Melvyn Bragg you know Mm he sounds very adenoidal say he's got a flat nose hasn't he? but er Problem is I think Jeanette said Tom had that problem cos he didn't speak until he was about two and a half and they thought he was you know a bit daft Retarded and it must of been because of that Because he couldn't hear properly because er, they've got both got very small noses and Hannah's always talking like that you know Mm through her nose, but, so there must of been, she's alright but her nose is blocked up all the time Mm Made up for it since though So, well they're all at school today anyway Yeah Emily was trying it on again this morning, I think it's just that she gets tired cos she feels slothlike in the morning and then by the end of the day she's over like a rocket She's wound up Yeah, so I said well you know because I was thinking oh god if I go to college and she's off bloody sick all the time, but I think it's just that she's tired and you know Mm what time do you, do they go to bed? Go to bed at half seven, she doesn't go to sleep until about quarter past ten some nights reading I know they read yeah gonna get that Oh It usually means Scott has fallen asleep I mean if, if they are in bed, I mean if they are there they are resting to some extent, even if they're sort of awake but She's just not, oh I don't know, thinks she's gonna miss something I suppose Yeah, she's a late bird, but er Don't like getting up, but she'll be alright does she, you, you said she was having vitamins for a while didn't you? Not having now, god she, I mean she doesn't eat a lot, but she eats so many different things, I mean Mm having a good variety she's on the organic crisps at school and er well fruit and she eats a lot of salad cos she loves salad you know Mm if I had a salad I mean it's unusual that for children really cos they don't usually go for salad Yeah, well even Laura like she eats salad at school like you know, but erm, she's got erm, what did we have the other night cos we'd been eating semi semi Mediterranean food this week cos I made these stuffed tomatoes with rice in Oh those are nice I like those last night and we had cheese and onion pasties with them so Bang goes the diet Oh no Well Laura and Gemma wanted to make these pasties and she'd asked me at the weekend and I didn't have the time because I think Irene came down cos I asked Irene whether she'd looked after, you know I'm at college until three, and she said yeah I'll pick them up and er I couldn't get her out at then so I promised she could make them so, I said alright you and Gemma make them, anyway they did very well they made them in about fifteen minutes because we had to go and get Emily at four from school, I said hurry up, hurry up put the water in Emily quick stick them together shove them now and put them in the oven What were they cheese and onion? Cheese and onion little pasties they made and Laura didn't want to eat any for tea they did their nut with her God so she just had the rice and an egg with it and Gemma had about three pasties and I had stuffed tomatoes with rice and erm, what did I do with, I done rata , ratatouille and That's nice yeah ratatouille which is easy to make, I didn't know I was making ratatouille That's a nice one anyway before I read the Mm recipe of it That's a nice one that erm, pomme de terre Yes, yeah but of course it's got eggs in it and it, it's no good is it? Erm that's not the shaped spiral shaped? Layers of Oh layers of potatoes layers of potatoes and erm cheese and then you pour the egg mixture over it and cook it Oh what's the egg mixture then? Not custard? Ah er no, er just eg , egg Ah egg a couple of eggs A beaten egg isn't it? with milk I think that's what it is Oh like a flan mix then? but erm mm or a quiche Yeah I suppose that's right yeah in, in a casserole dish Like a flan with potatoes and cheese in , mind you you're supposed to cut down on the cheese Well this is it, it's dairy I suppose isn't it? But the spuds taste lovely ooh Mm but you've got to par cook them because they don't Yes quite a lot when they're cook quickly enough yeah what did I do with we had er salty potatoes This is like true confessions this forget that Ah you'll have to do what Ken does All the things that you shouldn't have Made me laugh last night, he said erm I, I, I always do a load of spuds he said even if it's Yeah Ah he knows only him and then he said you know He said I do a lot and then, and then I fry them then and then keep them and perhaps have a bit of a fry up oh god Ah eats, I'm sure he eats all the wrong stuff you know? Yeah Well, well I mean we called in the other day he doesn't seem to put on any weight mind He won't eat any no, no, no in the afternoon and er he don't eat a lot he had a biscuit with a cup of tea and he said that's the first thing I've had to eat He doesn't eat much today and I said well why? You know, he said oh I, I usually only have one meal a day You see he won't eat veggies Perhaps he's used to having one meal he wasn't there in the day time Well that's right Won't eat any veggies you know, none Well how I don't can he go to the toilet think he used to bother flipping heck, unless he eats fruit Oh er, I don't think he does, he likes He doesn't and, he erm raw vegetables An apple now and again but it he'll eat raw carrot and things like that but otherwise the only vegetables he'll eat are potatoes he eats peas about, yeah but he doesn't, he doesn't eat them much does he? If had a plate of raw carrots Now I would always peel a carrot It's a bit boring isn't it? Well I was gonna say he doesn't Not very often if he ever ever comes to our house and you're doing stuff then he'll pick one won't he'll make a celery Yes if we catch him he eats a couple of carrots in his hand Does he eat salad then? He doesn't , well he'll have salad minus oh he does oh I think he will have a salad but he doesn't like tomatoes I think, I think they're quite big meat eaters really and erm They were They like a lot of meat saying at this mediterranean diet that the more fruit and veg you eat the less chance you've got of heart disease and cancer Oh yes Oh yes that's right, yeah er you know if you think you're not gonna get cancer you would eat more vegetables really I mean Yeah they, they've always been known for marvellous skin haven't they, the erm Oh they all look skinny Mm continent because of olive oil, plenty of erm vegetables I've got some olive oil but I've noticed if you look on the olive oil that some of the, some of it isn't mono unsaturates is it, you know, on a lot of it Olive is olive oil olive oil Gotta be pure olive oil pure olive oil yeah, but it's got saturates in Has it? How can it? I must have a look on my bottle I've on this one I've got, yeah because this was one of them I didn't study the label No I didn't, I thought it was all good I just I just saw it was pure virgin olive oil and I thought oh that'll do Yeah but even if it says virgin it can still That's what the can says Oh thought it came straight out of an olive it can't do any harm can it? Mm, but unless it's added additives Saturates fifteen grammes Oh you haven't got your glasses on No That's not much is it? Yeah, but I'm saying, don't tip it up cos the tops broken Yeah there, I didn't think there was any saturates in it, olive oil No Got a small and that is one of the, the lowest that one and it was one of the cheapest ones as well Mm, that's probably why though I, this is it you've got to get the er if you get the virginal I don't think Have you? No I looked on the virginal and it had more saturates in than this Oh No wonder then So if you look, and they, and they say the more mono unsaturates it's got is better for you isn't it, rather than polyunsaturates cos it's broken down either further isn't it? That's right, yes, yes Mm And there's seventy thousand Well the article I read in it, it said erm, you know you can drink gallons of it, I mean I don't know You've got to be a blooming chemist now to de ,de , decipher all these labels. Well I suppose like Yeah if you were born in the Mediterranean you would of been eating that stuff anyway and you'd never have, think about it Yeah, yeah You see the South of We eat all the South of France they said in the paper they eat a lot of butter or cook a lot Oh do they? Do they? the North it's all, nearly oil they use Mm that's the most civilized country as well I don't cook in, in I cook with oil, if I use oil They cook everything in butter don't they? but I very rarely fry any thing anyway Oh when I was at college Yeah and makes you know in a, in erm restaurant, in a hotel or whatever, but I, mind you, you don't go to a hotel that often When I go shopping I I mean I, I I want it simplified, I want it in big letters this is good for you, this is not so good, or this is bad No just good, bad or this is very bad That's what they say on Food and Drink in you know and then it's up to you but Yeah but there's a lot of ambiguity about it isn't it, they you know they say this is Oh very ambiguity the wholemeal or whatever Yeah and as you say you've only gotta read the small print you find that spent percentage of this and that. Mm, you see, I always get that erm that you can see how many Yes but then you've Tesco's own brand Mm which is brown and white bread A mixture of it with only, with only this is the trouble with only a few little bits in it Mm There's nothing in it, yeah, we, we had a loaf once, sliced, brown bread and there was a line across it there, it was white A streak of white yeah where the dough, streak of white dough hadn't been mixed in properly We said god look at this , you know it looked as though it had been painted Mm, a marble, a marble loaf , there you are so it makes you wonder you know as you say Mm is good isn't it? Because Their granary bread is beautiful oh Is it? It's a lovely taste I mean I don't Straight no it doesn't look particularly dark Where it comes from but it does, oh it's great It's got all those little bits in you know? Yeah, well Scott I mean he just eats loads of bread Malted loaf so I mean I don't mind you know That's good he's, he's off the white bread now isn't he? No we don't eat any white bread now It's abso , I can't eat it now They, well there's no taste to it, I mean it's what you put on white bread I think brown fills you up more Of course it does so there aren't as many slices though It's just as nutritious though, isn't it? Yeah there's something in that you see, the white I mean they have to by law, when it's, I mean When there's no fibre in it that's the different That's right, Yeah that's right, I mean it's so refined the the ger the they took all the goodness out of it and then by law they have to put it back again don't they, to er Yes, yeah, yeah it's like er breakfast cereals are good for you in a way that they've got all the vitamins in for kids ain't they? Mm We get these Weetaflakes, you know, which are like Yes those are good but every now and then we get something with a special offer on which we're getting the Kelloggs cornflake bowls at the moment. Cocoapops No we don't buy them Haven't had Cocoapops for ages Oh what's the other thing snap, crackle and pop Oh there's so many of them, so many things I don't know Oh yeah What well I'm gonna try and do my brakes Yes his car brakes, listen erm, this erm, this sponsor thing does it say You can either do it per pound or you can do a total amount in the end Eh? Oh I see, I was gonna say because Joyce said oh I'll, I'll Nothing for a penny? Cos if I lose twenty eight pound then you, then you sponsor me for Penny a pound? A pound No divided by twenty eight pence, I mean, divided by twenty eight That'll be two pounds, two pounds eighty if it was ten pence a pound Mm so you know if you just say a pound for the whole lot Yeah, it's till June this yeah? Yes, it's till June You haven't written any letters off yet, no? I have yeah so Any and I've got three phone numbers to ring but I thought I'd wait till the end of the week until I'm about eleven and a half Julia said oh you don't look eleven and a half, but er I'd still like to look about, I don't know about ten, I suppose oh you do have to do go on then get up there and unlock the door I don't know So how often are you going to be going to the dance now that the weather's better you mean I took him out last Saturday Water comes up like this Displacement, eureka, I have it People say she's a good swimmer but she's big Unsinkable, like the Titanic Ah Oh it was terrible when Jackie went in, god her, her leg it was like two of my legs Ah, mm when I persuaded her to go in, I said you're alright Jackie just run in She fell in, it'll be quickly a big wave God, yeah Everybody hurried then out of the way I suppose in the shallow end and Andrew he didn't want her to hold him in the water, he wanted to walk thought he could of in the water he didn't realise it would go over his head There's a can do as well Aye all me things for oh is that what it is? I know, I'm gonna staple it back up Oh my grief Did you get all that bumph off er Barry ? Looking for er people who cand , not candidates looking for people to, you know, vote for him? No We got a letter about animals and their policies you know and funny thing there was a letter in the paper though er in the Legal last night and it was some woman who'd written to say that erm, this little girl had collected two, over two hundred signatures for erm the er anti hunting Oh yes yeah lobby you know, erm and presented or sent them that's a lot isn't it? to Barry along with other, numerous other people Yeah and obviously you and I and a few others, but erm they will know who we are he said it's a pity that erm Barry didn't see fit to vote for it, so You mean he didn't? Well no, if, if that letter's to be believed he must know Abstained or something did he? must of well he must of done Oh that's bad see, there are a lot of farms up where Barry lives Got to be realistic, is that what you always say? Yeah Well I don't mean that I'm not gonna vote for them but I am disappointed He's been waiting up and down town asking us to vote for him, flipping heck Next time I get hold of him No, you gonna ask him that? What are you gonna do? No you next time he waves to me and I'm going up town I'll be no, you, must vote really, must vote, vote for the Labour Party here we are Barry He's always Yeah You try and er I remember him waving to me one day, I thought who the bloody hell's that? work on them, when they're in power Oh he does the he's alright He just goes You I mean you, you criticize him but I mean I know a few people who, who he He's got no clout has he? has helped Oh yes he's got a lot of local level I mean they can't , they can't possibly do everything for everybody at the right time I mean local level they do er No, no they do their best they're still on that issue I would of thought He's not Jesus Christ is he after all's said and done, you know He looks like it you can't work miracles get out of it, get on with that car That looks like ta ra Bye then See you No wonder you study the dictionary the other day Study the dictionary, yeah Start off with a Yeah get all Did Kelly said anything about this job? No she doesn't know anything yet Oh she's, oh so it's just in the er pipeline at the moment is it? Yeah she's just gonna, she's just got to pass I see, I, I you know I mean I mean I, I mean I dare say is that what she does the weekend no she only works at nights and she was asking about nights for Carrie you see, cos I No way can baby sit Ah? for a couple of nights, when she was on, she asked me if I thought Ken would baby sit a couple of nights, if he could you know perhaps ask different people to baby sit you see, so I said well I didn't like the idea of that anyway He wouldn't mind so I said well, I said I thought of baby sitting you know if you want. I mean she doesn't she didn't know how many nights it would be It couldn't be nights though could it? Well no evenings you see Not if it's ten till oh evenings No oh I thought you said nights like six till ten something like that you see Yeah that sort of evening shift erm so it's four hours and anyway she said that whoever the girl is, she works at the school in the day and she works at the erm in the evening you see, anyway she said the evening shifts are all full Sshh but they have got Saturdays and Sundays, or she thinks there's Saturday and Sunday, she's gonna ask about it Oh so it's time and a half as well or something she said on Saturdays oh I don't know I don't know I mean I should imagine there are so many people now looking for jobs That's right and if they can get somebody who hasn't got any ties then they do that especially part time work Yeah they, they're sort of at a premium aren't they? Well they're trying, I mean they don't, they don't owe anybody anything, they don't have to pay them holiday pay No, nothing or give you the sack just like that Isn't that pretty over there all daffs? Yes that is, yes, could do with a few more mind you, but still, that looks nice there Yes look on the left Yes they are there's a couple of in there it's lovely wow, thousands Good evening! What's this Evening! evening then? How are you Bri? Well it's we nearly met on the lounge as well. Did we? No ! Where's Bill? Sussex. We're short! Oh you were They're going do , they're coming down here. But of course, but he goes But he There wasn't! Ta , thank And you. Yes, it was, yes Cos you called, yeah Hello Louise, how are you love? That's right,yo cos I rang you to say we weren't coming. We thought yo , we thought we'd got Erm mixed up or something. Would you like to come in I could shut the door. right now. Do you know that address Bri? Are you coming in? Gotta pen? you shut door. Yes, keep the heat in. Before I forget. Oh aye the stuff. Well, Stockport, Brian's bound to know that. What do they do? Well it's chemical polishing and stuff like that, you know. Not Stockport, I don't know No? I just thought you might have happened to pass the Nah way. I'm sorry! Perhaps you might be able What you got a microphone for? check at the er Oh yes, mm. I want to know what the microphone is? Come on! You've got eyes like a I know. What the hell's going And how on out there? It'll be very casually. I thank you Yeah. twice. Alright Phyl, how are you love? and Hi! something new. And who's this little girl? It's our mum! Hiya love! Oh it's not that long! Isn't it? Well it seems like it. Last year probably! It's lucky Hey you well kid! Oh you look very well! Thank you. How's things Ho anyway? Fine! Are you just, is this a flying is it, or Yes it is, yeah. Is this your er, Orion is it ? When Yeah. Ooh nice! Yeah, he's at the match so I thought I'd come down and That's my Volvo out there next to it. The old Behind it. See you see you later on. I ca , I ca I came home the other day and I couldn't get into ! That's a ! I know this car! I thought, must be nobody would go I turned round and no plastic on it. No! When was this? there wasn't it wasn't ours. Near the . You know what we said? Oh alright. Ooh yes! Oh I see ye yeah. So I thought I'd come down and see you. Oh that's nice! On Sunday? Yes Yeah. Can I just have a cup of tea? Do you want Your dad's do you want ? No, you go and get a a drink! Have you only just come in Bri? No, go and get drink! No! I've been in ages. Oh! Go have your cup of tea! Who's driving? I'm driving. Good! I can get pissed! I actually get a chance to have a drink! You you cheeky devil! First time this year! Do you take it in turns? Is it your birthday? yeah ! I just say, is it my turn, you say no! No! Mm mm mm. Never mind! Mm! Oh! Good game! You didn't wanna watch the football. No, I thought Louise was watching it, of course! Yeah , yeah, that's where he went Road. There's a no on the Is that whe , oh where is it Liverpool? Yeah. Is it? Yeah. Liverpool and who? Genoa in Italy. I don't know anyway! Genoa! Pardon? Genoa. Genoa. Genoa. Genoa. Italy. Is this a hoax or something? No, no, it's it's Oh! real! It's live. It's live! Oh is this about Fergie? Yes, what a surprise! I think it's a shame I do. Have you mum? Surprise, surprise, yes? Mm. She's been under too much stress I think. Stress! I'd love her job and her God! money! I'm not surprised I haven't left Brian in this mess ! If she's been under stress. She's got two kids there to look after she's devoted to them ! Day and night ! She doesn't even know them! I think she'll trigger it off now, Charles and Di will be next. Excuse me will you drink your tea. Well there have been rumours before. Ah, I'll just I think finish my tea then that erm I'll have a drink after. Just a minute, have we come too early have we? Beautiful isn't it? Yeah. No I ju , we finished I'd Phyl hasn't had a wash! She's drinking tea! I've had a shower! Oh! I said, shall I erm shall I make a cup of tea? Cos we would we You carry on. let him out Louise came and interrupted us. Have you been at that gym tonight? Yeah. Thought so! Oh heather was thinking Mm mm mm. of starting I've had a shower and that, all the time you know besides ! I didn't mean that! I didn't mean tha ! That's Louise's feet! Oh who's that? It should be very funny. Do you have a No, no! tape recorder hidden away in your Oh no! No I don't think they have. No! No? He has, yeah! And he munching peanuts, I said it'll I'll let you have go at like that, I tell you what I'll have that then. It's just that you're munching peanuts and all Will you behave! So what've you been doing? I've been going to the gym. Erm went Sa , on Sunday. Which one? Car boot . He goes ! It's nothing that I hear, say not another car boot sale? Yeah. No, we didn't come to the, oh yes we did, sorry, yes! Excuse me this, this, is it on . That's fine! Absolutely. It's all we've got. And she's going see about going. She's frustrated! Erm well you know we had Brian's mum Well you just squeeze it . in the afternoon so we went out in the morning to an antique fair Mm. and had lunch out and picked Brian's mum up mum up in the afternoon, then thought about Which one? having some tea. Where's your mum Which antique fair Oh! Erm was it? Fradgem Oh, that one again, yeah! You said it wasn't much cop No! last time didn't you? Where's Fradgem Wait a minute. On the hill is it? No, that was er Merseyview when it was crap! Rubbish! Erm No, you were right the first time boy! That was crap wasn't it? Let's be fair! Yeah, it was like Really Brian! community of Language! I think I better come in , it wasn't at all like that when I was there. Ah, well the, it shows you, I told you it was a long time ago. Yeah! They've deteriorated since! I got him printing this. I get It's just research isn't it? Yeah, it's a market research things, erm I get twenty five pound for it! erm we're getting Oh, are you doing it? All the very best! It's a voucher. Yes. Mm. You're taping it they show it to you after recording yourself then? Yes Mm. he has. Have you? So watch your language! You haven't? Look at the microphone. Turn that thing off! Yeah, it is crap ! But we didn't, we didn't buy anything from so There was nothing to buy! No was it poor It was was it? It was rubbish that was! Rubbish! We went down to see the Raymond cottage. you're crunching those he went to a real ! we took too yes! and went there. Those are yours aren't they Marge? Are they? Oh! Oh sorry! Did you see that? You, listen you're They were back a bit. at the weekend I'm terribly sorry! Sorry! Sorry ! Brian's Look ! mum Ju came She was absolutely great this weekend! Last weekend well for a couple of weeks she's been on a downer. Mm. Ohhh I've had I've had to send over if we see her. When she's really low Cos she don't wanna Mm. Yeah. Mm. Mm. So anyway, I said to her the week before last when he went up on the Sunday, I said go up there and say to her Tearful. erm All the best . sh you know she's feeling low and she's been Oh yeah. not taking her tablets when you're feeling better we'll come up and pick you up and take you out. Course, he went on Saturday, didn't and she was as right as rain! Mm mm mm. Mm. So whether it whether she's realised this But that she thought well if I act like this I'm no , nobody's gonna come up and Mm. take me out. Mm. I think it's And tablets though. Her tablets have worked have worked a lot. I was going to say, she must of decided Well she ta to take the medication now ! Mm. But you're, you're getting a cup of tea to be we went up through took her for a walk Yeah. Stopped and had a cup of tea. Only a Then when i short walk, it can't do any harm that Mm. and erm he, she sort of gets hold of your coat, how she does and then I've got scarf on you bought me. Ahhh ! Yeah. She said, and the jumper and I've got the beads she said! Oh! I didn't tell you but whether i she put them on Specially. specially, I don't know. She must of done. Yeah. I think that's enough of those. Now how many have we got there? Quite a lot. Do you think you could learn all of those? Probably. Probably no I think definitely. I think let's say you could learn Which ones couldn't you learn then do you think? Mm I think you could learn all of those couldn't you it's just that there's quite a lot of words to learn so they give you some funny ones like ox because it's got a funny plural and there's two or three of them you say oxen you don't say oxes . So apart from that you don't need to know about ox do you. You're not going to be walking down that road and say look there's an ox or No. No. But some of these they're a bit more important. Er now here's another A sound. Playing stayed. Erm how do you spell play? Play? Mm. P L A Y. Okay how about say? S A Y. And stay. S T A Y. Well I think your spelling's pretty good actually isn't it. What's this what have we got here oh a cat okay. Erm and what about what do you do in church? Sit and talk. Do you Poems and That ends in ay? Pray. Pray how do you spell pray? P R A Y. Okay and how about day? Oh D A Y. Right so you know a lot of these so there's another way of making an A sound isn't it there's this A I sail and mail and snail and things like that. And this A L E like female. How would you spell erm another another word for beer that ends in A e has an A sound in it. Very short word. Erm Can you spell ale? Mm. How do you spell that? A I L . I'll put it in this side. A A See it's going in this column I L Going in this column. Mm. with sale S A L E so have a guess. A I L. Try A L E okay Oh. Okay you won't need to know that for a long time yet anyway will you . Okay erm so going back to these we've got day s say stay play pray. Erm any others? What about erm thing that they make pots out of. For modelling ends in ay . Erm Starts with c . C erm clay. Clay do you know how to spell that? K L oh C L Good good C L A Y. Okay great. And how about that cat is that your cat? Yeah. Yeah it's not a stray cat is it. How do you spell stray? S T A Str str. Oh R S T R A Y. That's it stray. Now how about if the cat if your cat had strayed how would you spell that? S T R A D E. That'd be a good way of spelling it that would be a sensible way S T R A D E but they don't spell it that way unfortunately. All they do is they just have stray and then they put ed E D on the end Mm. strayed. Erm do you know how to spell played? It's on there. I know right okay do you know how to spell played? It's got E D on the end of play . That's it. P L A Y and put E D on the end. Erm how about stayed if so if your friend stayed overnight. Put E D on the end of stay. So that's S T A Y E D. Okay stayed. And how about if they prayed? Put E D on the end of pray . Okay so what's that's going to be? P R Right. A Y E D. Right okay. Couldn't really say someone had clayed . How about if someone said something? Oh sayed Sayed it should be sayed really but we don't say sayed . What do we say? Said. Said. Erm S A Right. Y It's S A I Oh. D which is ridiculous really I mean if you pronounce it said it should be something like S E D Mhm shouldn't it. Yeah. Or if you're going to do it the same as we've done these it should be S A Y E D so said is a funny one. One that you'll just have to learn. Right. Okay So but the others easy you worked out the pattern just put E D on the end. Mm. So for most of them strayed prayed stayed played you can just put E D. This one say said you just have to learn that one cos it's a bit awkward. That's a lot of words. Will you have any trouble with any of those learning any of those? Yeah erm. What about these what was the hardest w thing about clay. Oh it sounds as if it's got like a K on it It sounds as if it should have a K usually most words if you're not sure and they start with a c sound put a C . It's normally a C yeah. There aren't many that start with a K. There are some can you think of one. That your mum would use for heating the water up Coffee. to make heating the water up to make a coffee what would she boil that water in? Kettle. A kettle okay. That's a C. That's a and that's one with a K. Kettle Is it? kettle is Is a K. Is it? Oh. Yeah. Erm If they've got a letter E in the s for the s for the next letter then usually they'll have a K. Key key Key yeah that's a good one key. Right. There's a name Keith. Keith and one that was in here Yeah. Erm are you going to keep that? Yes I Am. kept it I kept it. So they've got a K in Mm. keep and kept. Erm but In in school when I'm copying off the board words with like K in the front but like they start with a C but I usually put a K and then the teachers go over them and say like this is a C sort of you know careless and all that. I just keep on forgetting that. Yeah it's not really careless is it it's a question of do you know it or don't I mean Mhm. you're not going to put the wrong one down if you know the right one are you? No. So it's learning the right one. and then finding someway what they've said on there is try to make some sentences that use it so that you can remember what it looks like. Erm perhaps you can think of daft things like think of someone kicking the kettle. Do you know how to spell kick? Kick er K I C K. Right kick. And think of someone kicking the kettle. If you a football easier with that kick. Right. And if you think of that and of the kettle that'll rem that'll remind you that it's a K for kettle same as a K for kick. Erm this is a daft one. What what's that on the carpet there? Cat kicking the cat . And how do you spell that? Erm C A T. Right now if the cat has kittens how do you spell that? C I double T E N S. Very good the only the only there's only one letter wrong in that have a guess which one it was. Double T erm It was the it's a K. Oh. And it's ridiculous C for cat so you'd think it's going to be C for kitten wouldn't you. No it's K for kitten. Now how can you think of remembering that one? Maybe the kittens might sit in the kettle or something. Mm kid. But the cat wouldn't Whichever wa it doesn't matter if it's really daft if you can think of some way yourself to remember it to remember that kitten has got a K and cat has got a starts with a C. Most of them most of them start with a C. If you're not sure if you can't remember try C because it's more likely to be right so you're going to get more marks Oh he's got this right and they won't be putting careless on it they'll say Oh he knows what he's doing here. Mm. Erm so if you just remember try and remember the ones that have got a K. It's no good trying to remember every word that starts with a C cos there are lots of them. Just remember the ones that start with a K. And if it's not one of the ones you've remembered you think well it's probably a C. Mm. Try it with a C it's an easier way of doing it isn't it. Mm. Erm you like football. Yeah. Er how would you spell keeper. Keeper C E How do you spell keep and how do you spell kept? Kept is K E P T that's on there. Good good that's on there and keep? K double E P. K double E P is keep so have a go at keeper. K double E P erm E R. That's it. They write E A R at the end don't they some words. Some of them but not very many. They usually make a sort of ear sound if they've got I mean Yeah. if you have E A R E A R that's ear so how would you spell hear? H as say in I H at the front of ear That's it I hear with my ear. Hear when you hear with your ear it's spelt like that. And when it's what's the what's this over here. That way how do you spell I say is it over here and you say no it's over there. How would you spell there. There T H E R E. Right so here and there You just put a T at the front. Just a T at the front they're almost the same. So that's Mhm. one way of remembering those two. How it's here and there and the other the other sort of hear you hear with your ear and it's got an ear inside it. So if you can think of things like this top remember it helps. If you're just trying to remember them all and you've got all these words and letters floating round in your head it's quite awkward isn't it trying to sort them out which is which cos there are you know millions of words. Mhm. And you'll just think Oh I'll give up. So you've got to get a system where you can something that'll help you so you can make sense of it and and learn. You're not going to learn all the words in the dictionary overnight are you? No. No you can all you can do is just learn a few each day or learn some patterns so that you can get quite a few words in one go and sort of learn some tricks like guessing well we'll we'll try with a C. If it starts with a C sound we'll try a C if it's not one of those that I've remembered starting with a K then it's probably a C. Erm how do you spell coat? K O A Are you sure it's a Oh C. C so go for a C first unless you're sure Yeah if you're not sure you should go for the C then yeah Because most of them start with a C. So how do you spell coat? C O A T. That's it C O A T bit like cat with a with an O in it coat. And can you think of any others that start with K? There aren't many. Kit like a football kit. Kit that's a good one. Kit and kitten so that's maybe one way of remembering kitten. Mm. Right that you know how to spell you know how to spell kit like a football kit or your gym kit. So kitten just put ten on the end of kit. Mm. Okay that was a good one kit. Erm I can't I don't think there are many more. So each time you come across one have you got a notebook to write things in. upstairs. Yeah if keep keep it sort o erm alphabetically okay so you've got the As then the Bs the the Cs depending on which letter the word starts with. And in your Ks whenever you come across a word that starts with a K make sure you put it in your book and have a look at those occasionally so that you're pretty sure you know all these K words and then if it isn't you say well okay got to be a C. Mm. Erm what other words can you think of that start with a c sound? Oh cup. Cup okay and so have a guess at that one. Do you know how to spell it or do you need to guess. C U P. Mhm and what sort of a c is it? Oh. C or a K. K is it? What did we decide? Oh C. Right always have a always g if you're not sure go for the C first so there's cup okay. Erm and what would you wear on your head for going to school sounds a bit like cup? Cap. How would you spell that? Erm C Good. A P. Good was that a guess? didn't know whether to use Yeah so you went for the C and you got it right it's a good one Yeah. to go for go for the C each time cos there aren't many that start with a K. And if you can just when you come across the odd ones that do start with K just learn those and then instead of learning about a hundred thousand or something that start with a C you learn maybe about ten or twenty that start with a K and you say well if it's not one of these I don't know I'm gonna s try it with a C. And nearly all the time you'll get it right. Occasionally you'll come across some new odd ones and the teacher'll say Oh actually this is a K should be a K and you think Right Mm. I'll put that in my little notebook. And so that you keep on top of it so you know that you've got all the ones that start with K. Okay. Erm any other c sounds? Computer. Good. That's a C one. That's a C you know that one okay how do you spell it? Oh erm C O M Com yeah. P P U T E R. Brilliant. That's quite a long one computer. Mm. Okay. Curtains. Curtains that's a hard one let's have a go. Erm Right what are you gonna do you know whether it's a K or a C? No C So what you gonna guess. Guess the C good good guess C I It's C Mm. U R T T O and then it's A I N S which is ridiculous, curtains. Oh oh curtain Curtain. curtains. You don't say curtain. I know. you say curtain but it's spelt curtain which is ridiculous really. Curtain. Do you know how to spell mountain? M O U T Moun. Oh N Yeah. T A I N. Brilliant. Yeah. Yes. So curtains and mountains should really be saying curtains and mountains. mountains. Mountains I'm going to the mountains. Oh take the curtains with you when you go. Okay so sometimes it helps if when you see a word you pronounce it to yourself. Don't pronounce it the way they normally do but just say Oh mountain they went to the mountain . Or write or write it on the table and the table Or write it and scrub it off again with you've finished school . Write it on write it on a bit of paper? Write it in your notebook well keep a piece of paper with you. Write it on the table and then you can That was very good mountain that's a good one to know how to spell curtains the same. Erm More K. Or C more C more likely to be a C. Mm mm. Erm at school they usually have one teacher for each Class. How do you spell that? C Good go on. C A L Cl cl cl Class C L Good. A double S. Good class. How do you think you'd spell classic? I C on the end. That's it. And how do you think you'd spell classical like do you like classical music? Don't worry about it cos these are getting quite awkward words A L on the end. C L A S classic and then A L on the end yes brilliant. Class classic classicism always adding two words Just making it two That's it making it a bit letters. longer each time and making another word out of it . Like Yeah just like . So if you learn the words this way thinking well do I know a word that's a bit like it and could I add a bit onto the end that's another way another good way of learning cos you don't have to learn class and classical and classic you just sort of learn one of them. You can you can work it out. Let's have a look at the ones that they've given you. Which ones are you going to have trouble with. Well there's kept we've go keep and we'll put kept on there as well as Mm. as one of these K words. Put that in me little note pad and all. Yes have we got any other K on there? No. Any words that start Key. with C. Key good so we'll put that right up at the top. the key to learning it all key. How do you think you'd spell keyhole? Put a key in the keyhole. So K E Y key and H H O L E That's it. Okay so another another K word key well you wo could have guessed that if key has got a K then keyhole pretty certainly have a Mm. K won't it. What have we got here. Oh would and could you're going to use those quite a bit in writing Mm. aren't you. Would could and should they're going to come in quite a bit. Cross you might like Yesterday I crossed the road to go Right so cross to the field . Yes cross is a 'd be a good one to learn there. Erm let's see which one of these you think you you're pretty sure about. Erm okay I'll just ask you and you see which ones you do. How about pound? Pound. Yeah. Pound P O U N D. Good. Kept you know that. Mm. Use? Use U S E. Yeah. Sound? S O U N D. Bound. Same only a B in front . Yeah same only a B in the front. So you know quite a few of these. You know kept you know key do you know desk? Desk? Desk. D E Go on. S C. Now this when when it comes at the end of a word Oh yeah. and makes a c sound then it's usually a K. Oh. So if it starts the word and you're not sure go for a C. C and the end But if it's end it's nearly always nearly always a C and a K. How do you spell back? Back? He was a full back. How would you spell back? Mm. Oh quarterback Quarterback. position in a Yeah half back. B A C K or That that's it B A C K and that's the first one to guess really C K that's the most likely one. Erm desk is a bit of a funny one because it's just got the K. If it's got another consonant do you know what a consonant is? No. Ah do you know what a vowel is? A vowel No I've heard it a few times No yeah but A E I O U and sometimes people count Y but A E I O and U. It's hard to make a word without them. You can say pat pit pot put if you put a a vowel in. Mm. Well the other letters that are not vowels all the rest of them are called consonants. Erm and if you've got see if you've got a vowel and then a c sound so if we said Let's have a look at some vowels and then a c sound. So we've done back. Which is B A C K draw a line of vowels and see if I mate a make a word or something. Right that's what we'll do okay. Erm what else could you put in front of ack? There's another vowel A. Ack. To make a word. Act. Erm put something in front of that so this ends it. You had back. Erm If you were going on holiday before you went you'd probably have to. Very good. You'd have to put things in your suitcase Yeah. you'd have to what would you say I'll have to I'll have to something my suitcase? Mm. Lock erm shut. Pack. Pack it yeah . But lock was a good one. Okay pack we'll put lock down then. down here. Lock ends in c Mm. c sound and it's got a vowel it's got this A I O or U right in front of it so we go best guess is C K. It's one nearly always right is that. So lock erm how would you spell sock? smelly er smelly How would you smell sock then? S H O S H O Good. K. Don't forget if it's at the end it's the end of the word the best guess is usually a K oh a C K . C K right . C K Right so what you said I said how do you spell sock S O C K but what you said was S H O C K. What does that spell? shock right. So that's another word you've got there lock sock shock Shock. Oh that gave me a shock Erm The ghost. And how would you sp show would you spell Under the table. How would you spell mock? Mm. It's the witch. for Halloween. How would you spell mock? Mock? Have a guess what's it going to start with ? M M, okay. O O C K. That's it. Yeah. C K is a almost almost certainty for the ending it if it's at the end of the word and it makes a c sound go for C K if it's got a vowel just in front of it. Erm mock okay. Have a go at frock. Erm o F R O C K. Brilliant. It's easy this isn't it. Yeah. Once you've got a sy once you've got a method you can you can get it right nearly every time. if you haven't if you're just trying to remember every word there is in the dictionary you'd be there all your life and you'd still never remember them all. Mm. Because you'd you couldn't hold that much in your head so you have to try and break them down into little patterns of Oh it's one of that lot or it's one of this lot. probably working them out and all. Ah okay well we'll car we'll do a little bit more we'll find out some more of these words ending in K and when we've finished off those erm we'll have a little look at some maths. Okay. Okay. So how would you spell sack? S A C K. That's it. If it's at the end it's almost certainly going to end in C K. Erm how about track? T R A C K. That's it. So just with that trick there are a lot of words now that you'll be getting right yeah. I'm going to school dead brainy and everyone's going Good good. Track erm how how would you spell lick? Lick L I C K. Good did you know that or were you just guessing? In a way I knew it in a way I had to Yeah C K C K is definitely a Mm. favourite that's the one to go for. So if I'm not sure I should always go for C K. If it's at the end. If you're not sure at the end of the word go for C K. And even you'll probably get one or two of them wrong occasionally but most of them'll be right and when you get one or two of them wrong the teacher'll say Oh not C K like desk for example not C K on the end of desk because it's got this letter S in it as well. Erm you've got lock and we could put lack in here Lack? as well. How would you spell that? L A C K. That's it you've got track erm how would you spell luck someone had a lot of good luck? Luck? Luck. L U C K. That's it. Did you know. How would you spell lucky? Lucky L U C K Lucky E Y. Just just Y. Oh. Just put a Y on it lucky. Okay. Mm. And I think you're getting th the idea of this putting C K on the end of a word haven't you. Mm. Mm. Erm How would you spell truck? Truck? T R U C K. That's it. Erm if I get something wrong and the the teacher's going Have the the teachers telling you a way of learning something like I've been saying put C K if it's on the end of the word. Mm. Erm why do you think well why do you think I was telling you that? So I could get more used to them so Yeah do you think I was doing to make it harder for you? No. Right well what was I doing it for ? Making it easier for me. So you could see the pattern yourself and make it easier and a lot of the time at school when the teacher's telling you, Why don't you do it this way? they're not trying to make it harder for you. You might think, Ooh it's hard that way. They know from cos they've had years of experience Mm. teaching people how to learn that most people will find it easier if they We've got learn it that way. we've got the oldest teacher in school. Oh. Fifty erm birthday Is it a he or a she? She. All she's. Mm. Apart from the headmaster. Do you get on all right with the teachers? Sometimes, sometimes I get a bit told off. What do you get what do you get told off for? really stupid things erm Why do you do stupid things? Don't know well sometimes I playing like and this girl, Oh that's stupid doing all this and, you know and she just like Mm okay. Do you play sometimes cos you can't be bothered doing the work cos you can't see any sense in it? No I always sit down and do me work but sometimes people just distract me all the time. Mm. Dead distracted easily. Okay so if you can learn to concentrate on looking for the patterns and looking for, Oh well what sort of word is this, is it going to end in a K end in c sound so it'll be C K. Does is start with a c sound. So what would be what would you try first if it started with a c sound? C probably a C. Right good. And if it ended with a c sound what would you want Probably C K. That's it. Or K. C C K most of the time there aren't many that end in just a K. Desk is one of them erm have you got any disks on your computer? Yeah I've got a Amiga so I've got Okay and how do you spell disk? Disk D I S K. That's it like a desk that's really that that was the American way of spelling it but we spell it that way now. That's another problem with spelling is the Americans spell things a bit differently. In America in American world you're doing all this and they'll be going, Oh no you don't That's not right. Yeah they're spellings are a little bit easier than ours cos they change some of them some of the awkward ones. So theirs is like the way I think. Yeah. Oh. And other people other people think spelling should be changed but it's not going to be and they're still going to mark it one the exam if you don't get it right. So we'll have a look have a look at your I'll get Er let's let's have a look. Right and you're joining up you writing nicely there. Mm. Reading book, pattern book, What's your writing like? Not too bad. Okay. Me double isn't all that good. No the only way to get your writing better is to practise it. look at this she's given you lots of C C K to do together because Mm. very often You've got to do C K at the of the word. at the end of the world it's going to be C K at the end . So she's given you those to practise not just a C and then a K but show both as one making sort of one sound like in back and lock And me me and flock Me best word when So you're good at hey that's good because some people can't go their F goes all over the place. Yeah that's good good keep it up. I would think your Ks are probably pretty good if you can do a good letter F . Yeah Yeah good that looks good that's very good. Okay which are the hardest letter for you to do? Hardest that would be In the joined up writing. erm oh erm like Is all the I-s Ah. look like Es Ah. Okay. You know when you do the I-s like that. Right so when you do when you do the letter I try to keep it we'll do a letter I here. Try to come down nice and straight my K isn't very good I bet you could do a better one than that. Mm. Okay like erm K is but if you're doing the letter E it goes up there and comes down okay? And the other thing about the I-s is if you make sure you put a dot on them on the top then if it looks a bit like if you people can't tell that you've done an E or an I, if you'd a dot on top it's got to be an I. Mm. Okay so that's that's that's a thing that would help. Okay some maths hey? Okay. Let's have a quick look in your folder see what you've got. Tricky ones. Do you know your tables? Which ones Which ones do you know? Oh that's just a how to make your circle. Tables? Mhm. Mhm ones . Ones what's the easiest tables? The easiest probably tens. Tens erm although are the ones very hard? No. Even easier than the tens yeah? Yeah. And what about your nought times table ? They're other spellings. More spellings okay. Okay. So you you might know some of these. Yeah. Er how about inside and outside? Inside and outside. Inside is I N I N S I D E. Okay and outside? O U T S I D E. Yeah so if you can Yeah I spell side you can spell inside and you can Mm. spell outside as well. Good well done . How I remember outside is like the end of a erm O U T spells out. Right. And that's how I remember it O U T spells Right good. Any any way that means something to you that's a good way. If anyone says to you, Oh you don't want to remember it that way. as long as it works for you Mm. that's fine. It something that you use. Mm looking a little bit a little bit like a E isn't it. an E but if you put a dot on it Mm they'll know . you won't have people calling you Semon then. Oh hello Semon. Semon. Semon if it's an I put a dot on it. Okay erm can you spell with? With? Yeah. Oh erm T I mean T W H I T H. It's just W I T H. Oh. So it's not as hard as you thought W I T H with. How about without? Oh W I T H O U T spells out . T spells out okay so there's some connection between a lot of the words isn't there and if you can spell one you can have a very good guess at another one that's got that word in as part of it. Erm can you spell walk? W I mean Yeah L W Is it? Yeah. Erm W A C K. W A L Oh yeah W A L K Walk walk. Walk. Can you spell talk? T A L K. That's it. Talk so can you spell walking and talking ? Walking and talking. W A L K I N G That's it. and talking is talk with I N G on the end . Well it'll just be the same That's it. Okay so you could spell walked and talked . Mm. Erm what about talked? Talked T A L K Yeah. E D. That's it. And walked would just be the same. Now how Mm. about asked? A S K E D. That's it now that how do you spell ask? Ask A S K. Yeah A S K so that's a one a bit like desk. It doesn't it's not like back where you've got C K at the end because there's the S in front of it as well it's ask. If it says so a sk sound usually just S K desk ask disk frisk. Okay. okay it'll be that so you can eventually you can build up a few tricks that'll help you sort out a lot of the spelling. And I'm pretty sure you'll be getting a lot of spellings right soon. I don't suppose you could spell football could you? Yeah F double O T B A double L. And match? Match football match M A T C H. Very good. Excellent. Can you spell you can spell play cos we've done that can you spell ground? G R O U N D. Good so could you spell playground? Yeah P L A Y G R O U N D. I think you're very good at spelling actually. I mean seriously. You're not having a lot of trouble with these are you? I think it's just one or two odd things that you get wrong sometimes like when you should be using a C or a K or a C K or And me D and Cs get mixed up Ah. Like for ball I do dall and all Ah well okay. They look they look pretty much the same don't they? Mm. So you've just got to work out some way that'll make sense to you for remembering which way round they go and probably one good way is just write them out quite a few times think of a lot of words beginning with D. Mm or Check it somewhere that you're writing it the right way Or picture them in your mind and Yeah picture them in your mind and then just draw them just write the letter D dog door Mm. and things like that. Some D words and some B words so that you can sort it out cos the only way you the only the only person really who can make sure it works is you. Your teachers can say, Oh why don't you do this. and I can help you say, Try this way. but you're the only one who can make it work by practising it and by trying it. It might be a bit awkward when you start off but once you've done it a bit it gets easier. Like say playing football. Never have you ever seen little kids trying to play football? Yeah. And they go up to it and they f as soon as they pick one foot up to kick the ball they fall over. Mhm. They can't stand on one leg and then they're waggling their foot about and missing the ball all together and you think anyone can kick a ball but they can't but then they get better at it. Erm you can like say there's the ball and like and like up here you can go can't you. they go say they're standing . Yeah or they go and put their foot on it and trip over. I know mm. But eventually they s they soon learn cos they keep trying. Mm. But if you imagine when you were about this high and someone gives you a ball to kick and you you fall over and you, Right I'm not trying that again. Mm. Right I can't do it I give up. And never give up . And you just never you never you never play football you never enjoy having a game and things like that so. So if you You should never give up or You need to have another go maybe sometimes think well what am I doing wrong. Oh well maybe I have to practise first without a ball just standing on one leg and waving the other leg about and trying not to fall over. And then do it with the other leg. Exactly yeah and then when you can do that when you can balance on one leg now we try it with the ball and see if we can kick it and then kick it harder and make it go exactly where you want to. Things like that. So it's building it up in stages. Sometimes people expect you to do everything overnight don't they. They say, You know right go on you've seen it done once now I want you Erm dreaming and Yeah. dreaming you're the best football player in the world and Yes that's good dreaming that you can do it. Okay well what's so terrible about this folder then? Everything. What's all this? You're doing this. Oh erm . This poem is an excellent choice for older boys and girls. Is it? Mm and Do you like it? This is me best one we done this this Daddy where's the gentleman's clothings? Is he feeling too hot? When I am a man may I walk up the street in my nothings?and then all the other people shout Certainly not. Certainly not. That was the Emperor's New Clothes. Right Okay which so you like that one. And what did you think of that first one then?funny words in it . We haven't done that one yet I wasn't in I wasn't in in that song but I went to watch the play Mm. and then when I got this sheet when I joined choir went, Oh yeah I remember Right okay. But I really like that one Well that's oh that'll be good. And we came second out of all the schools. Did you. Well that's brilliant isn't it. That's brilliant okay. So maths. Mm. Cos when you're sitting down for ages You get pins and needles you get your legs get stiff you get pins and needles and things like that. Erm we'll just have a look at what we've got. The words are mixed up. You have many toes how? What's that all about? You you have how many toes? It's got a question mark on the end so it's a question good. How many toes have you? We would normally say how many what would you say would you go up to someone and say, How many toes have you? what would say? Or or you have how many toes on your foot or Yeah you'd say, How many toes have you got? probably wouldn't you. Mm. you wouldn't say how many toes have you? Is the third year what month of the of? What do you make of that? Erm What do questions normally start with what sort of words do they start with? Erm Can you see any word in there that might start a question. The. Oh what. What okay so what What month of the year is third month oh no Now then what is the third Year. month of the year? Good. What hard of the opposite is? Erm what of the opposite So good what is probably going to start it cos it's a question. Mm. What Is What is right what is what is the opposite of hard? Good what is the opposite of hard? Easy. Do tree grow what acorns on? So what's it probably going to start with? What. Okay so what Do tree Well what what do trees grow on. What do acorns grow on tree. Okay good what Do. Yeah what Tree. Tree good. What tree do do acorns grow on on mm. Grass what is the colour of? Grass What's it going to start what word is it going to start with if it's a question? What. Okay good and there's a good chance What is the colour of grass? Good no how about this one? Many has a how legs lamb? So what which one of these words is going to start a question? How. Good so how How many legs how many legs has a lamb? Good. And what's this one? Probably going to start with what word ? How in a week days are there many? So how Many Good how many So that Yeah. How many days in a week are there? Right. How many days are there in a week? So what you need to do with these is work out the right way round that they should go and the answer is a number and you need to put the numbers in there don't you. Well sometimes it's a number here it's how many it's what do you know what sort of tree acorns grow on? Acorn tree erm It's an oak tree and it's another one Yeah oak tree. that it just ends in a K. Yeah. Oak . How do you spell look look Look? look look out there. look at that. Okay erm L double O K. Good. Now so if it's got a double vowel if it's got O O or say E A say leak L E ache L E A K if it's got a double vowel you just have the K on the end of . Okay so you could do those. Could you do any of those? Erm in each Underline which is different. Erm different So have a look at number one. Erm which is the easiest one to do of this lot. Now I okay right I don't want you to underline them now I'd like you to wait until later and then try and work em out again yourself so you get practice doing it. So okay which is the easiest one to work out out of this lot do you think. Erm out of All those. just that line? Yeah. Probably Which one? Six times one is pretty easy. okay how about six time none? Six. Is it? Mm. Six times none. Six six what does s what does six er let's have a look at this one what does three times two mean? Three three times two six. It comes to six what does it mean? Why would we want to work out three times two? Well let's say er if you had two Ps if you had three two Ps you might want to work out how much that comes to. How much would it come to? How much would three two Ps come to? Yeah. Three two Ps comes to six. so that or you might just have erm say you had biscuits and your mum was going to give you biscuits and you've got two friends round. And she said, Oh I'll give them two biscuits each. So she put them on the plate and she might want to work out what would three lots of two come to. Okay so how much how many would that come to? Six. Six erm maybe one of your friends didn't turn up and you so out of that six you wouldn't get three lots of two you'd get two lots of three. And you'd have three each then. So that's that's what this is what this is what times means it just means lots of. Mm. So what's six lots of one? Six times one Six lots of one how many would you have altogether? Twelve. Times one so if there Oh. were six of you one for you and one for you and one for you six lots of one Six lots of one Six six lots of one is oh do you mean like one six? I mean one one one one one another one. So there's six Six yeah. and one. Six lots of six how many are there in your let's let's look at just three lots of two again. There are two in each lot. Yeah. Let's use these. So three pound there there's one lot of three pounds and three pounds there. So I've got two lots of three pounds I've got six pounds altogether. Mm. How much would I have if I had three lots of two pound? Three lots? Three lots there's one lot for you, one lot for you, one lot for me. Each person gets two pounds how much Oh three. So I have three lots of two pounds how many have i got altogether there? Six. Six right okay. How about if there were just two of use and we had two lots of three? Six. Six. How about if there were six of us and we all got one pound each so we'd have six lots of one. Six Right how about if there were six of us and we got none each no one got any how many would there be altogether. None. None so what's six lots of none come to? Six lots of none. So there are six of us here it's none for you, none for you, none for you, none for you, none for you and none for me how many altogether? None None six lots of none. What do ten lots of none come to? Ten lots. Ten lots of none ten people sitting round a table and they all got nothing they all got none. None None. Erm how about a hundred lots of none? I don't think a hundred people would sit round Well we've some of them queuing outside and they're all they're all queuing up for something and they're going to get nothing each. You know how much would they get altogether. None. None what about a thousand lots of none? None. Okay so that's the easiest one Anything times nothing is just? None. Nothing. How about if we had no lots of ten? No lots How many? of ten? Yeah. Let's say we had let's do it with three None. That's none good yeah. Six lots of none will always come to the same as None. no lots of six they'll both come to nothing. Mm. So three lots of two? Three times two erm nine. Is it? There's two another two Oh. another two. Oh six. Six you were doing a harder one than they was asking. Mm. Okay. Three add three? Yeah three six. Six. Six lots of one? Er six. Six. Five add one? Five add one. Oh six. Six. And six lots of nothing. None. So which is the odd one out there? Oh the odd one is That come to a different answer from all the others. Three add two three times two? Or that one nine. Three ti hang on three add three? Oh f oh that's That's six. That one. That one so that's the odd one out. Six lots of nothing comes to nothing. So you can underline that one. So you can underline that one later. Now what have we got here? Eight take away one? Eight take away one is just erm seven. Okay eight times one eight lots of one eight ones? Eight ones eight. Two lots of four? T erm two fours oh four twos erm Four twos two fours which ever one's easier it's going to come to the same answer. Eight. Eight and well four twos two fours and four twos? Two fours four twos Eight. Four add four well we've got two lots of four there haven't we. Yeah. So it's going to come to two fours so that comes to? Erm Four add four is the same it's just the same as two lots of four Eight . Four add four is erm eight. Eight. So the odd one out there? The odd one out there is erm That came to eight that came four add four is eight Eight. four twos are eight. Eight. Two fours are? Eight. Eight ones are? Eight Eight take away one is? Seven. So which one's the odd one out? That's it. Okay. Three times four three lots of four ? Three three times four three fours is three three six nine three six nine twelve. Twelve. Twelve good three lots of four is twelve. Six lots of two? Six lots of two. Or you could do two sixes . Yeah good. Twelve. twelve. And you've done th you did three fours and you got twelve what's four threes? Twelve? Good and you did That's just the same as that one Yeah. really. You did six twos so what's two sixes? Erm forgotten what the answer was. Two sixes came to Twelve. twelve. Five add eight. Or eight and it's usually easier to put Eight add three. Yes eight add five. Eight five. Thirteen. Right so which one's the odd one out? That one okay. Nine times one nine lots of one nine of us Nine. and we all get one pound each what would that come to? Nine. Okay. Eight add one? Good. Eight take away one. Right eight take away one? nine take away one is going to come to eight. Eight add one? Eight eight. Eight add one. Oh eight add one nine. Three lots of three? Nine. Five add four? Nine. Okay so you worked Erm I think you can do these on your own you can Yeah. work those out okay. Yeah? There's stuff in erm them them there Okay so you can do these. Mhm. Those some of those might be a little awkward. Erm tables if you learn the tables it's a lot easier. Now there's no need to learn all of the tables erm er what I will do is if you want any more lessons I'll do you some special tables cut down so you only have to learn about half the normal and then you'll know them all cos if you know two sixes. If you know six twos you don't need to learn two sixes do you. And if you know four threes then you don't need to learn three fours. I know. So we'll cut it all down so there's only about half of it that you need to learn okay and I'll print you a table out on the computer like that and then you can ask your mum to ask you them. tell her not er not to be sort of hurrying you too much saying, Oh come on come on you should learn. It's no good No. it's no good saying to someone come on you should know this if they don't it doesn't help does it. No. Okay and you say there are some in here? we're starting this book erm when we're coming back form Easter. You're starting this Yeah so Okay so you'll be doing angles and things like that. And weight. You'll be investigating area and perimeter. Okay and drawing pictures of castles. Mm. Have you been to any castles? Well Edinburgh Castle Mm oh that's good. I think I saw Edinburgh Castle I haven't been in so Well we haven't actually been in but Ah that one I think is Sissinghurst Castle. I've been in there. It's Any good? Oh very nice yes yeah. Sissinghurst or is it I know I've been there I took a photograph of my son outside there holding the doors. I've got a picture of me standing outside Edinburgh Castle you know Mm. in between two guards like that with the Yeah. machine guns. Okay so you'll be doing all these how far is it from one place to the other. Yeah. and things like that. That's your book two. Have you got your book one about? Book one's Is that okay. Well I think if we can and it's up to you if you want any more lessons. But if you want to have some more lessons you want if you don't want to you can tell me now or you can leave it and get your mum to tell me later that you don't want any more. Erm if you do I think what we'll do is we'll go through this book one so that we make sure that you really know everything in this and you're really good at it. Yeah? So and then when you go on to book and we'll if we get through this in time we'll have a look at book two as well. But it's no good going on to that until you're really pretty good at this then you should be able to follow what's going on here. It's a bit like somebody sort of can only just about kick a ball and you say, We'll make him our centre forward. and you wonder why you're losing all your matches cos every time the ball comes to him he can't trap it or if he does he kicks it the wrong way an own goal or something. So you've got to build up gradually doing each little bit at a time and working on it. They can't expect you to do everything overnight can they? To just suddenly be able to do the whole lot yeah. a little bit at a time build it up. We'll work a little bit on the maths and a little bit on the English each time. Oh mm I'll tell me mum to get erm a few you know come round a few before go back to school so Okay. It's up to you. Let's have a look I'll leave those you can have a look through some of those and Okay. you know you're coins that you've got there? I count them put them into little money bags. Okay well this is what I'd like you to do. I'd like you to put them out just bring me the bottle over now I'll show you what I want you to do. What have we got. They all one Ps? Or mixed? Ones and twos. Ones and twos so we'll sort some out. Orange juice. Orange juice okay squash. Now find all the Right keep all the the ones over your side. Okay what I want you to do is to get twelve of them first and put them into see how many rectangles you could make. I mean you could make if we had twelve we get another two. So with twelve we could make Two. the way you're looking at it it's six lot's of two isn't it. If you look at it from round that way it's two lots of six. So you can do things like that you can do erm playing with your coins. Draw round them. draw round them just put them put them out like that and when you've put them out to make a a pattern you can say if you just work with twelve first. And you do things like two lots of six makes twelve and six lots of two makes twelve . Equals twelve. And then you could say well we could try threes try that see if you could make em into into sets of three. Into sets of three? How many lots of three would you get? Right so I'll scramble them all up so like Like that okay. Okay. And then carry on and you you try that and see what you can do with with that. When you've done twelves and you've got all the answers that you all the things you can make out of it. See if you could make lots of fives maybe you can maybe you can't that's for you to find out okay . Mm. Then try it with twenty four of them. Then try it with thirty six. Now that will probably be enough all the different Thirty six. patterns you can make. But if you still get through all that and you want to do more try sixty. Sixty of them and put them out and make them into nice little lines and that and see what things you'd have to multiply together to make twelve or what numbers you'd multiply together cos it'd be so many sets of like four sets of three or three sets of four. Two sets of six six sets of two. I don't think you'll take very long on the twelves I think you'll have that sorted out pretty quickly. Then you try the twenty four and then try the sixty. So I'll leave that for you to play with and erm I better give your mum a shout because I should have gone by now. I've got another I've got someone I'm supposed to ring up and somebody else that I've I've got a lesson starting soon. It's nearly twenty past eight. So I'll tell me mum to give you . That's probably best. Erm if you get to ask your mum to come in I'll just ask her what's what you're doing next week. I think the best is get some of this stuff done during the holidays yeah? And then when you go back to school you won't be thinking, Oh they're all rushing ahead and doing it and I'm getting left I know. behind. Cos it makes you feel bad that doesn't it. Yeah. And you start thinking, Oh dear That's what puts me off me work really. It does put you off and you start thinking, Oh there's no point trying it cos I know I'm going to be last. sometimes goes, First one to finish wins so and so. and the last one sometimes But. But I'm not the last. Good. I've never been last. Oh that's great. Well I reckon if we practise a lot during the holidays if you play with the pennies and things and think about the spellings and try you know you don't have to read through the whole dictionary just learn some Or re redo all that at some point. Yeah. I've do It's like it's like practising for football I mean you might be the best footballer in the world and you say you know they say well you've just won the cup say Mm. and then they say, Are you going to what are you gonna do now for for next cup? Oh nothing. I don't I don't need to practise. So you just sit and watch the telly for a year and not do anything he's not gonna be very good No. in the next years cup is he. So So if you just call your mum. Oh yeah. Oh yes I'll take that. That's it just give her a shout. Mum. Hiya getting on ? Oh well how did we get on? What did you think of it? Okay. Okay. Okay. Good Good so so that's good. how do you feel about it do you think you're going to get the hang of this Yeah. spelling and the sums and things like that. Yeah quick. Do you? Yeah? Quick. I think so I think he's he's good at picking it up. It's just that if in you need you want it explained to you in a way you understand don't you rather than Mm. someone going on about how they think you should understand it. Yeah. So I think he's picking it up very well. I've given him some some things to play he's going to play with his pennies and make patterns and work out his tables. Alright. And for next time I'll get some erm a special set of tables for him a lot easier to learn so that he can learn his tables and he'll only have to learn about half of them and then he'll know all of them. Cos some Right. are duplicated. Mhm. So we'll get that sorted out and been talking about it I think the best bet is if we can get a few lessons in during the holidays so that when he goes back to school he'll be more or less up to date. Mhm. Erm if we get on very well if we get through say that book one on the maths if we get through very well then we can start having a look at what he's going to do when he goes back so he'll understand the terms when they're explained to him Mm. cos we want want him to get maximum benefit from the school not just Right. rely on me. That's right yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I thought he said he got through book one but is there some stuff in it he doesn't understand yet? Erm I think we need to just go through it Yeah. and just make sure about a few things don't we on the book one. Yeah. Mm. Because this is this is very common in maths that there isn't really time for the teachers to give them Yeah. this attention everyone needs so sort of whiz through it okay you've done that Yeah. now we go on to book two because Mm. that's what we do this term we go on to book two . Yeah this is it yeah And if you don't know it you're not a hundred percent sure on book one You're gonna be struggling yeah . you just can't understand what it's on about so Mm. the only way to do it is get that book one really sort of so he really understands it and then he's gonna be interested in book two cos he'll Right. understand it and he'll get Okay fine. So what what day do you suggest next week? I I'm not sure at the moment are there any days that are Erm I I've just been talking to me husband about it. Tuesdays and Thursdays we though were good days so leave it at them . Okay okay erm Because erm Right. Monday it's too soon after the weekend. Oh yes yeah . And he he he does jujitsu classes which he's Does he? gonna start up again on Wednesday Oh good. evenings Good. and then if he ever wants to stay over a friends Yeah. Friday's not a good one you see. Okay well So. Tuesd yeah Tuesday and Thursday then cos we'll try and fit in with you if you can. So do you want Tuesday and Thursday next week? Or just just the once I think what's whatever's best for you Okay. Tuesday or Thursday. Right now Oh very good. that's good that's good. Erm I'm just trying to think we really want to try and fit a few lessons into the holiday if you can it's up to you fit in. Erm probably about sort of four or five would be ideal but we can see what we can do with about maybe three or something like that. Mm. It depends on how much you can do how much Simon can do on his own if I give him stuff to do. Okay. Erm so have a go at that stuff and work through it and think about think of new words for yourself and I've suggested that he gets a notebook to put some spelling in. Right he's got plenty I've got plenty Yeah. of pads about the place . To just k just keep that with you Yeah. Keep your spellings in that and when you come across new spellings put them in there. Okay. That's a bit like erm didn't you used to have a word box with words in? Yeah. Yeah. Have you still got that upstairs yeah? Yeah good that's a good idea but now you can start keeping them in a in a book . we'll keep them in a book. So shall we erm say Tuesday then we'll see how we go from there. Yeah Tue Tuesday'll Is that okay? be fine. Erm I'm not sure what time yet but erm it's more likely to be sort of just before lunch or just sort of or maybe just after lunch or round four o'clock I try to keep the younger ones earlier so they're not you know it's not Yeah. too late for them so it'll be earlier on. Erm if I give you a ring about Sunday or so I will have sorted out cos I've got quite a few to sort out at the moment . Okay then yeah that's fine. Okay. Are you gonna put your things away Simon? There there we go. Right thank you. Now that's how much is there? Five. And that one? Oh erm fifteen. Right and it's thirteen pounds fifty so how much change? Fifteen So thirteen fifty and that would make how many? Thirteen fifty what how much i Thirteen pound thirteen pound fifty and then Thirteen pound fifty then it's How much does that make? Another fifty onto thirteen pound fifty. If you had fifty pence and Fifty then you got another fifty pence how much would that be? A pound. Okay so we've got thirteen pounds forget about that for a minute and then fifty pence. Two pound change isn't it? No. Fifteen That would make it up to But it's thirteen fifty fourteen pounds. Oh. That would make it four Mhm. Erm. So erm when did you live in the flats? Erm I lived in the flats from Christmas eighty three till September eighty five. Mhm. And erm in addition you've you're a social worker. I am a social worker. And you and you've erm through through your work as a social worker, you've had some contact with people in the flats. That's right. I've erm contacted them through living there and working with them as well. Mhm. And in addition to that, am I right in saying, for thirty years you've been a nun? I've been a nun for thirty years Mhm. yes. Erm whereabouts whereabouts erm were you born? I was born in Scotland. In Scotland, what part? In the West of Scotland, just between Edinburgh and Glasgow. Yes and erm I came down here erm just at the time I was becoming a nun thirty thirty odd years ago. So have you got have you got any brothers and sisters? I have one erm a sister and one brother, both married with families in Scotland still. So I still go back. To visit them. What about erm the occupation of you parents? Er well my my mother is a cook and mhm. my father is a mi sorry he wasn't a miner. He was a miner for a very short time. erm but then he he couldn't take and he moved into the steel works. So he he's worked in steel work for a long time. Till he retired. What kind of education had when did you when did you leave sc Erm yeah, I attended the grammar school Yeah. in Scotland and erm it was called the senior secondary then. And erm I er did my Scottish Higher Leaving Certificate. And erm then after erm I had done my training as nun, I did teacher training, and I taught for twenty years, before becoming a social worker. How what kind of a Prior to living on the flats, erm what kind of accommodation have you lived in? Erm well I I've lived always in sort of traditional convents, which are generally Mhm. Erm sort of detached houses or er rather big properties somewhere or other. Erm but prior to coming to er live in the flats, I lived on Road in , erm next door to a mother and baby home. And I worked in the mother and baby home. So that was just like an ordinary Mhm. detached house on the the main road in . So how how does the accommodation erm you've been in prior to flats, contrast with erm living on the flats? Erm it was a a complete contrast. Erm it couldn't be more different actually. Er you know living er so close to neighbours and people you know in so it tended to be, in other places where I've lived, that you didn't see people people very often, at least you didn't speak to your close neighbours very often, and erm in the flats, you know I found that they were right in the midst of it. Okay. What was your motivation behind living in the flats? The I know you Erm well it it really stemmed out of my work in the mother and baby Yes. home. Er several of the girls who had been in the mother and baby home, were housed in the flats. And we had to help them to move and you know help them to move their things and really I saw the kind of difficulties the girls would be living under. And I felt that they did need some kind of ongoing support. And also I used to notice that there were quite a lot of em empty window, you know, in the flats, and erm you know I just got a feeling that this was really where I I found that I would be able to work, or that I wanted to work. So from there I I mentioned it to our provincial who's the i the one who's in charge of us all in this er area. And erm that I would like to live in the flats, and she just said, Why don't you? And erm I asked around to see if anyone else was interested in doing the same kind of thing. And another sister said she would be happy to join me in that. And so I approached erm Mr at Street. But I I wrote in and I was asked to see Mr . And erm you know and I had a letter then from Mr , saying that they would consider us for a place, in the flats. And erm after about six six or eight months, we were given a place off Walk. Having lived there f for a few years, erm how did it contrast with what you actually expected? How did it with your original expectations? Well I think having erm had some contact Yes. in the flats Mhm. and also when girls moved in I would visit them in the flats Yes. and erm they came back and visited the mother and baby home too. So I knew the kind of complaints they had about the flats. And erm and so I I I was familiar with the kind of things erm that we expected. And well you know things like the noise of the blues parties and things like that were a great annoyance. I came in knowing that that was going to happen, so erm yo I think also I had the the freedom that I had chosen to live there, and I think that made erm the difference. I put up with with it then, knowing that I had chosen it. And erm also but I I was glad to experience the kind of things that people who were living in the flats without choice, had to experience. Mhm. Am I right in saying that one of one of your motivations behind living in the flats was the fact that erm the contact with people on on the flats, and you felt erm that it would help you erm That's right. if you actually went through the experience that they themselves were That's right. It would help me and er it would give me a greater understanding. Mhm. Erm having actually experience that way of you know having to live. And that was and that was something that was achieved,ha having lived there a few years, you think Well I don't think it was achieved, because I mean it's there's always Yeah. something I mean we moved out of the flats, partly because the flats were coming down, Yeah. and partly because I had to have an operation which meant that it wouldn't be easy for me to live in the flats any longer. And it just seemed that that was the time to give up the tenancy. But I would hope, I mean it has given me the the wish to go on living in a similar kind of situation. So a actually living on the flats, erm did that ha did that have any impact for your actual life itself compared to other places you've lived Yes it erm it certainly did. Erm i because the people that w we were we near to the people and more accessible to them , Yeah. I think they felt happier in coming to visit us. And I certainly think that they felt more comfortable coming to our flat, than they would have felt coming to a big private house somewhere Mhm. or other. And in that way I felt that I was closer to people. Mhm. So I'm right in saying, you had an open house in which people could That's right . tenants in the flats could come in and Yes er we just talk Yeah er you know, we had an understanding that if erm because there were times when we wanted to just have some time together, or to pray together, and erm you know people who did come in and out to the flats, we erm told them that if th we were in and we didn't answer the door, it was actually because we were either doing something that we couldn't come. And er the people just accepted that, and they didn't keep them from coming, because at most of the time, er the Mhm. house would be open, even late at night or erm you know, early in the morning if necessary, people could come. Mhm. How many people did you in your er in your time on the flats, how many people do you think, have visited at some time? Oh. Aye. Yeah aye. Er we never kept account of of anything but I mean some evenings it would be quite quiet and maybe just the next-door neighbour Yeah. would be in or erm you know, maybe in the course of the evening or just the afternoon, we'd have had two or three people called. I remember one evening we went up to bed, and my head was just spinning because we'd had about ten ten people had come in, some of them overlapping and some had you know but I'd say at one stage we had about seven people in the flat together. Erm and although it was erm you know, it was good and the people themselves enjoyed talking to each other as well, it was a bit tiring at the end of the day. But er y you know that that kind of thing, erm we always hoped and felt was good. Mhm. What happened say on Sundays and erm and during religious holidays, did you get Well on Sundays I mean we went to to church in the Church yeah. the local church. And erm it was just the same as any other day. Mhm. Occasionally we had to go away to one of our other convents for meetings. But if we were there it was just the same. Erm but the door would be open for anybody who Mhm. wanted to come. And what k what kind of response did you have erm from from erm tenants of the flats, I mean how how did you were people people generally friendly. They w Oh yes. Erm you know any anyone we met and and spoke to I think some people held us in some kind of suspicion, but a lot of people were glad er to have the er you know have the company and erm that were were available to them. I thi I mean there were quite a number of people, I would say on the flats that we didn't make contact with at all. Mhm. I don't th I think when we spoke last week, erm referred to the fact that er ethnic minorities erm That's right. Especially erm among the the the er the young Rastafarians. Now with the older West Indian people we would have you know, a passing sort of conversations and I know a couple of them came to help to get me to help them to fill in D H S S forms and things like that. Erm or I mean you know for advice about what they could do about D H S S. They came to the house to do that. But with the younger erm West Indians I didn't feel that we we we just didn't seem to be able to find an approach. And er part of it I think was because during the daytime you didn't see them very much, and at nighttime y you know they they would be obviously around erm going to blues parties and things like that. But it just didn't seem to be a time when you could er get an entry. You know so it was something that erm I didn't really feel that we did . Mhm. What do f er Moving on to look at the image that the flats have, erm bad publicity the flats Mm. have had in the media. Erm how fair do you think it is, the actual th the actual coverage of the flats? Well I certainly didn't find it any more dangerous living in the flats, than I would have found living in . And I didn't feel any more afraid, walking into the flats, than I would have felt walking on the road at night you know in in where I'd been before. Erm also do you know like, people would say things like, Oh you must be very brave living in the flats. We didn't feel brave at all it was just, we lived there and we didn't feel under any kind of threat. And in fact, one night we'd gone to bed and left the key in the door, and the door unlocked, the key on the outside. And we came down in the morning as safe as we would have been anywhere. Erm I know there had been occasion when we had people sleeping on the the stairway and you know, I think occasionally and but I think sometimes that was maybe somebody got home from a blues party, and had too much to drink or something, and they came into the warm, the heat w from the the downstairs flat, er k comes up on the stairwell, and I know there was someone sleeping there. Erm but I certainly never felt under any threat or any danger from people in the flats. Mhm. So you so really erm you'd say that the actual image of the flats, in the press and the media in general,somewhat unfair. Yes. Yes erm well certainly from my own experience er I I don't really think that erm there was as much crime or break-ins or danger as there seemed to be portrayed in the Mhm. the media. Mhm. What having lived on the flats, erm what would you put forward as being some the good points of living there? What what were the Yeah the good the good points for you personally, yeah . Do you mean the good points for me personally? Yeah. Well What did you find best about living there. Er well I think the experience that I gained of the the kind of erm living situation erm because I you know we underwent the same kind of difficulties. Erm e even like things like emptying the bins. Er I know there were complaints that people used to throw rubbish out of the windows. Well it did take a bit of organization to get yourself to the end of the walk, erm with your your weekly rubbish or your daily rubbish, to get that put away. Er and you know to really see what kind of erm design, what design can do to the actual living situation. Erm I think too, the closeness to erm our neighbours and to to the people was a very good experience. And also just the the whole erm general feeling of being with the people in the flats. And I I think I had great admiration for the er in particular for the the woman who was the erm president of the tenants association. I think she did a marvellous job in really getting public attention to the situation and to the difficulties of the flats. Mhm. And er to the community worker who fight them. Well I really you know, felt that that was a good experience, to see people who were normally classed as powerless, having erm that kind of strength within themselves and and the the power to push on and to face lots of difficulties. And er you know, to face being knocked back. Er very often when they were trying to do things. And to do it without a lot without a lot of support from the a from the people who actually lived in the flats, although they organized things and got it going, and the people living there didn't seem to be motivated to give them the kind of encouragement erm Mhm. Why d why do you think why do you think it is that there wasn't that motivation? Erm a lot of it was that people just accepted their situation and didn't think there was any way they were going to get anything different. I think erm maybe some of them felt it would be a waste of time fighting for it. Er but obviously you know, the the the courage and the the strength of the the people who did keep it going, erm really has achieved a lot. They they they've achieved all these people being moved out of the flats. Mhm. Which which was only which was the key That's right. That was what they said how to do. Yeah. Because they er well the flats just i weren't good enough to be erm you know, structurally, structurally erm renovated or whatever. Why do you think it is that erm that the reputation of the flats has been er I suppose gone off and I mean early on back in the early seventies, erm the flats were quite an attractive place to come to, it wasn't even that easy to get on the flats. Mm. And yet, gradually the reputation has gone down, it's become an area in which erm basically people who haven't been able to get housing. That's right. been desperate. How is tha how is that's come about? Erm well you know, from my experience in the mother and baby home, it seemed that even when girls didn't want to live in Flats, Mhm. if they didn't take the offer of the flat, there was very little else they were going to get. It was either this flat or nothing. And they would take it. And I think that was the situation for a lot of people, that erm if they didn't take the the flat that was offered to them, then they would be virtually erm either still on a long waiting list or homeless. And er so I think the kind of people who were being housed. They weren't the kind of people who could get themselves together and organized, it was a more and more the bottom end of the scale and people who were actually erm you know, really powerless in many ways. Mhm. And so e with that the the decline of the flats really erm seemed to to go that way. Yes. What do you think the impact is on erm you know a community such as Flats when erm you know, when a majority of the people in the flats, are living on the poverty line, or below it? How does that e affect the community? You know It it seems there's a sort of general air of hopelessness. Mhm. Erm and you know and I the thing that erm used to worry me maybe sometimes, was the acceptance of this as what they should be having. And that this was the the only way of life they could have. Erm that probably because they'd been at the bottom so long, er it didn't appear that there was Mm. gonna be much way up. Mhm. So say if I said to you, well if and I said to you, Well what could I do? What can I do? This is my situation. So how would you respond to that. I said w you know what can I do to change the situation? Erm well I think erm the first thing I would probably do would be try and explain what your what the rights your rights were, and what sort of benefits you were entitled to. Because a lot of people didn't even know what they were entitled to. Or if they were told that they couldn't get so and so, that was it. So on occasions we could erm help people with that kind of thing. And I know it's difficult to get people motivated when they've been hit down and hit down so often, er but and I don't think that you could do er any great erm as as we said when we went into the flats, we didn't go in with any big, world shattering ideas of of causing a revolution or you know, of doing er putting on a big project or anything, it was actually to be with the people in their situation and gradually to help improve somehow, if we could. And you know I think that's all we could do, tackle i ind er with individuals as they came along. And I know a lot of things too with the girls who came to us, we tried to erm give them er a sense of their worth as a women and not to constantly be oppressed and to accept erm what their boyfriends did or said, and so on. You know, like erm maybe one of them'd say, Well you know, I'd say, well why don't you leave her with erm your boyfriend for the day, and you have a day off and have a break? Oh well it's my place to look after you know, the child. And I'd say well if there are two parents there whether it's whether they're married or whether they're not, the parents are there together, it was shared equally. We would try to erm put those kind of things forward. And where ag erm either erm a young mother or even older women who didn't have a husband to support them, then we would try and we had one woman coming in and saying, she had six children and er her husband had gone off, and her giro hadn't been sorted out. She wanted to get the children to school and er als she'd no money for things for their breakfast. Well they did provide her with food, but also I took her up to the phone and showed her how to get in touch with D H S S and explain the situation. So those kind of things we tried to do. With your with regard to erm the tenants and and the contact you had with them, erm would you say that you found that people tended to be supportive of each other? On in in your opinion or not? Do people obvi obviously there are virtually everyone at the flats, was in a is in a poor situation Mm. financially Erm Erm I would say that erm I mean how much of a community is there in the flats ? Oh there there isn't I I wouldn't say there was a big community spirit. Yeah. I would say that there are small groups of people who help each . Yeah. And erm you know, I I've had on occasion, when there have been a couple of people in our flat, we hadn't either done or said anything. I you know, one woman came in in distress again, her husband had left her and gone off leaving rent arrears. At that time, and erm she hadn't known anything about it, because he had looked after the benefit, and she thought he'd been paying the rent. And she came in with and it was bad enough him going off and leaving her, erm without her finding this as well. And she came in and she was telling us all about it, and another woman who was there, she was the one who, she went over and sat beside here and said, Oh never mind and, You know we we we'll get it sorted out, and, You're better off without him . Er you know sh there were she was saying things and we were just sitting er by her watching her, providing the cups of tea. Erm but you know there but on occasions when people really needed help, there was usually somebody erm that they could turn to. But as for er a sort of lively erm community spirit throughout the flats, it wasn't very much in evidence . Mm. Just basically small groups that would help each other. That's right. Did you have any contact with erm prostitutes who worked from the f from the flats or not? Erm yeah, we had a nodding acquaintance with quite a few of them, and I think they they were aware of who we were. Now whether they were suspicious of us because we were nuns, I don't know. Mhm. Erm but er w we didn't have erm sort of close contacts Mhm. er with them. I know one or two of them, erm now as well Yes. erm but you know, we didn't actually erm we didn't have them coming Mhm. to visit us. Not fr you kn from our we would door but it was open Mhm. to them as to anybody else. Mhm. You're in your opinion what do you what were what were generally the motivation behind the girls becoming prostitutes, I mean was it I would say a lot of it is money. Mhm. Erm and I know one that I do know now said it's Certainly, she said, it's only for the money I do it, nothing else. Mm. So it's a case of the poverty that exists within the flats, Yes. erm I think so. forcing them onto onto the onto the Onto the onto the the the street. Yeah. And it was very easy for young erm young women erm who were either just on supplementary benefit or on unemployment, erm to get sucked into that way of living because I mean obviously they wanted nice clothes and things like that. It was a way of getting money. Mhm. look at the actual erm suitability of the flats say, for bringing up children. Erm how suitable would you say the flats are for bringing up children? Well there's certainly not there's not much in the way of er play area for the children. There was the big concourse, but that was the general er walkway for everyone. And I know like er there there were lots of things kids there on roller skates going along, walkways, people were shouting at them or you know trying to clear them off. Erm and there was just, and there was very little by the way of of grass even and er you know it was towards the end of the life of the flats really, that the play scheme got going. Erm for the children there. But and you know, like, for mothers er trying to get buggies and shopping and everything up, they'd either to go up stairs or down stairs. To get into their flats. And I think it it caused quite a lot of hassle and difficulty for people with young children. And then the er the older ones when they were if if they were sitting on the walls outside, the erm deck level flats, again they were either disturbing the people there or, the people were out shouting at them to get away and sit on their own walls and things like that. But there was just very little erm convenience and accommodation. For either young children or teenagers. Mhm. What about for the elderly the Erm well How do you e Again probably I had kind of personal experience of that, erm when I had the difficulty in walking myself. Yes. Erm. You know, the difficulty of getting up to the flats,i you know I I suffered from arthritis, and er you know i it was quite a strenuous business to get from the ground up to our own flat. Mhm. It was very tiring and actually the perspiration just used to be dropping off me by the time I got into the flat. So you know I think for er people who are elderly or disabled in any way, that was a difficulty too. Mhm. And I think perhaps, elderly people were quite afraid erm on the you know, living on the on the deck level. I know we had one lady erm lived underneath us and she was really very nervous and you know erm hardly came out of her flat at all. She used to get someone else to go and do her shopping for her. Because she was afraid. Mhm. So did you go and to see her at erm often Yes we used to go to see her, and she came up a couple of times. But even to come out of her flat and come up to us, if we went down and brought her up, she would come. Was that due to personal experience or was it No I think she was probably a nervous kind of person erm as well. But you know, when if if a a clutch of erm young people were together, standing outside, she would get very frightened about it. Wh you know erm to look at the actual facilities that erm is in the flats, erm tenants' action group. You thought they di did a pretty good job. They they did they did an excellent job, and it was only a small group of people erm Yeah. together. And they got the survey going, and they got enough people to volunteer to go round and interviewing people living in the flats, to get all the information that was required. Erm they got the the media to come in on it. And they they really erm took on a mammoth task really. And er er I think they they did a marvellous job. Mhm. Did you have any contact where a lot of times in the flats, with the housing office? Erm very very little. Only erm on occasions when we needed repairs done. Mhm. When you had to keep pestering them to do it. And erm you know I know that was one difficulty, that people had a long time to wait for repairs. Erm as well. And er I know the housing office always had excuses that they had put the the report in and we were just waiting for someone to do it. But that could be you kn quite difficult on occasions. But we didn't have erm very close contacts. How did you find the the local shops, erm Oh well I found was a very cheap place to live . You found it Yeah. Yeah. And erm we did all our shopping in the local area and at the market. Here I mean So you found the market good? Mhm. Yes. We found it we we lived you know very cheaply. If you what say if you say erm wanted to erm buy clothes would you go Yeah we we bought clothes in the local shops as well. Whatever we could get. Erm a lot of the stuff, you know a lot of my clothes, I always make myself anyway, but I you know what on the market then. What about for things I mean, did you have a telephone yourself? Y I think you said We did have a telephone in the house. Yeah. Erm what happened you know, most people in the flats hadn't got, a telephone, say there was an emergency, Yeah. erm How much of a problem was that for for tenants living on the flats? Well we we often had people coming and asking to use our telephone, because either the telephones were erm all out of order, or you could only dial for emergencies. Erm when we moved into the flat, at first, there was actually a telephone box on the deck. And just outside our place, but it was often erm out of order. And I think it w w was quite difficult for people because they'd either have to walk a long way to try and make a telephone call. If their giro didn't come, erm the only way of of contacting D H S S, was either to go down, or to walk all round until they could find a telephone to do it. Cos er we quite often had people in, erm asking to use the telephone to ring D H S S which, you know we let them do. Right, having lived on the er flats, what did you feel about the actual setup, you know, the rooms, the actual flats themselves? Er well the the a the flat that we lived in, Mhm. erm I I found it that it was a very pleasant layout. The living room was erm quite big. Er the kitchen wasn't very big but it was good enough, and then the bedrooms upstairs, I certainly wouldn't have liked to live in a downstairs flat. Er because I think you know the erm the bedrooms on er the bottom floor, er certainly I wouldn't have liked to sleep, erm in a downstairs bedroom like that. Erm the t er er you know I think the whole erm the layout inside was quite good. Erm but things like er you could see how people would lose heart with decorating, er because fairly soon after you'd decorated, the ceiling and the wall, erm just below the heaters and above the heater, cos it was almost, well it was almost completely black. And y erm you know, you would get pieces of grit and black heavy dirt dust coming out onto the furniture. Erm from the the heating, the heating system. And so that you know, could be erm very disheartening, when you were trying to keep things erm good. And then oh, at the end when we knew we were coming out. We just didn't even bother to to whitewash or to paint the ceiling again. Erm but the flats themselves could be nice. I mean we didn't have any damp or anything in erm our flat, but I've been in some of the downstairs ones, where they were very very damp. The erm you know sort of, the facilities like disposal of rubbish, erm and entrances were a bit difficult I found. Erm and the the chutes for getting rid of rubbish were just, well they were just erm not practical in any way. They didn't fit the kind of er bags you put in your d your bin for a start. Erm you couldn't put erm anything that was you know more than a small pedal bin size. Bag in and most people had a lot more than that to put down, so consequently they just dumped it if it didn't fit. So you know there were erm lots of little things like that erm in the layout of the flats which I thought weren't er well they just weren't practical. Mhm. Erm in your opinion er how how suitable do you think the flats are for actually bringing up s a family. Well they're not at all suitable really Mhm. erm because, to get in to the flat they'd either to go up stairs from the deck, or downstairs from the deck, and to try and manage that with small children, probably a buggy and shopping as well. Erm and people wouldn't know what to do, whether to leave the child at the bottom of the stairs and take the the shopping in or to to leave the shopping and have er you know, er think it might go missing or something by the time they take the child and the buggy. Up or down. And also there was just no proper play area, for children. Mhm. They played on the concourse, and er were always being shouted at by residents who didn't want them er playing just in front of their places. Er if they wanted to be on their roller skates or even on their bikes, then they were sort of going around the walkways. Again they were disturbing people living on the, either the deck level or the ground floor flats, because of the noise that that made. And there was no soft play area, at all for children. Until the the play centre was actually opened and that was towards the end of the life of the flats really. Mhm. Erm you know, Yeah why Why was it that it was towards the end when things were that there was finally a play centre set up ra rather than actually erm in the earlier days? Have you any idea or not? Well I think it was just because of the the people who put the pressure on at that time, perhaps people who'd been in the tenants association before, didn't see that as a priority. Mhm. But the er last group of tenants found that that was a big priority and really pushed and worked till they you know to get it . You mean this is the present group you're talking of ? Yes. Yes. Yeah. But er I think it er may have been started with and earlier group I don't know, but I know you know, the certainly the the final stages of the playgroup were with Mhm. this presents tenants' action group. Mhm. Having lived on the flats, how do you feel about the fact that they're they're going to be coming down? Well I'm happy that the flats are coming down because I don't think that they're really fit places for people to live. Mhm. I think there are much more pleasant ways of people living than than this erm set up that they have. And erm So I'm glad that the flats are coming down . Mhm. In that way. Mhm. What was it about the setup that you'd be most critical of? If you had to the real I key reasons for the flats. I think the the the density Yeah. of people living in a a very small area. Mhm. Er the w the way erm people are put in to live like that. And you know the like erm a garden or a a small area in front of their own door, where they can put their children to play safely. having lived on the flats erm what are you views on the actual policing of them?or not? Erm. Oh well to be quite truthful we didn't see the police around very often . You didn't see them round. Er you'd occasionally see two of them walking erm around, but unless there was specific for the from for them coming, erm I did see them er going into a flat. Now I don't know whether they actually broke the door down in the end, but they did gain entrance to a flat very near us, erm and they had dogs with them that night. And that was there was quite a group of police together, well with that. And there was quite a scuffle at that time. Erm but they seemed to be there for a specific purpose, but the normal day to day Mhm. er policing of the flats, I mean they weren't erm strongly in evidence. Mhm. I would say. What kind of policing policy would you actually say would have been would be suited to the flats anyway? And the fact that they were they were not seen too much I mean how do y Do you se Do you view that erm as being a good thing or not? Erm Well I I mean I think it it depends on your own perspective Mhm. on that one. Erm for me I would feel that the police having a r a low profile, erm is more beneficial er and I think perhaps maybe, erm the community policemen type of thing, could have been helpful. Erm but I you know I don't know that that was a got off the ground very well. Mhm. Er but I think you know, you've got sort of police walking around all the time, erm it can aggravate things rather than calm them. Having lived in the flats but also erm from your experience erm both as a nun and a social worker, erm looking at Flats Complex. Er it obviously has a lot in common with other inner city areas. Erm what kind of response do you think is required to to help areas such as Flats? Er well I think for anything erm really profitable to be h to happen, a great deal of money needs to be put into it . Mhm. And I think central government needs to look at the way in which inner cities are being constantly run down and erm problems highlighted and aggravated because of the circumstances. And I think lots of need to be put in, but I think what needs to be done is to hear that the people who are actually living in the inner city, feel it is what they need. Mhm. It's not just what somebody else thinks they need. Yea So erm carrying on from where we left off, erm am I right in saying that, you feel that with areas such as this, it's very important more money's pumped in? Mhm. Mhm. Yeah. What areas When I say, What areas, I mean what mean c what erm would you like the money actually to to be used on? Er well I think more could be done with erm helping people who are unemployed. Mhm. Erm probably sett setting up some kind of small industry, erm or co-operatives. I think that's needs to be looked at. And erm and I think something that er holding a community together. Some ways of of providing money to get resources which will erm have the kind of facilities that people want to use, and where they will come together and be together. Erm you know, not just er something that is er created and left there, it's with that erm the the thing in mind, that if if people want to have some place where they can get together, in the kind of atmosphere that they want. With something there erm of interest to them. Mhm. I think that needs to be done. But certainly I think erm with young and with the unemployed, that really is is quite a high priority to be looked at. What are the consequences of erm present policy continues and erm areas such as this simply don't get simply don't get extra money for reductions continue to be made? Mm. Well what's gonna happen is that the area will c continue to deteriorate, Mhm. the problems will just increase, and the poor and are just going to get poorer. So what are the consequences for the for areas such as this. I mean what does it mean for the actual people living here? It means that they are just going to be even poorer than they are now. Erm any bit of hope that they've got erm i is going to be gradually eroded as far as I can see. And erm I think we'll be going back to the kind of erm conditions that there were in the Victorian age and in Dickens' age. And in fact some of the the erm the that you look at now, could have walked out of a Dickens novel. And i I you know, it it just looks as though erm they're trying to force more and more onto the voluntary erm centres and the voluntary organizations, to provide resources and to provide help. Mhm. But it's not going to be the answer to the problem. How does it make you feel, the fact that er the way that areas such as Complex have gone downhill? How does it make you feel as a person human consequence . It makes me sad, it makes me angry and erm I don't know erm what other feelings it causes in me. Erm t th certainly it makes me really angry that people have to struggle for the basics and I you know I I just don't see how people who are on long term benefits, erm state benefits, can survive without getting into serious debt. Without getting into serious debt or going without erm things which are really necessary. Am I right in saying that you see erm the problems of areas such as this as being extremely urgent something done now? Yes. Yeah. I would say that if er if the inner cities are going to be saved in anyway, it's time it's past time now for things to happen. And people are either just going to be in despair or else they're going to revolt. Gonna be on thing or the other. I see. How how what way do you think it would. Having lived on the erm complex, what ? Erm To the situation that people are in? Well I can I can see lots of people just giving up hope and thinking, there's no way that we're going to get any better. Erm I think there might be a small group who would be prepared to fight. Mhm. Do you f you you feel that erm present government, erm do you feel that erm the other political parties what they're erm suggesting with their policies for the inner cites, do you think they're any better? Well when it goes up to election, everything is good . Mhm. But afterwards er it's difficult to say. Erm where whether they're any different from the ones that have gone before. Erm b I mean certainly I I would think that this government erm has less care for er the poor than than other governments would have. Mhm. Because they just don't seem to be aware of the difficulties, people have of living on on the breadline and under the breadline. What are the things that erm in addition to extra money, one of the things that you've abdicated pretty strongly is, involving the people themselves. Yes. Erm Yeah because I don't think anything will will work unless it's what the people who are living in the circumstances and living in the situation erm, if it's not going to relevant to their lives then, you're wasting the money. Mhm. You might as well hand it to them as as as a gift. Mhm. As give them something that's not gonna be erm of use, or something that they don't see Mhm. as what their needs are. Mhm. How difficult do you think it wo it would be in actually involving e people in that kind of decision making. I think it's difficult. Mhm. Because it takes time. Yeah. It takes a lot of erm energy and a lot of support. Erm and er but I think it's it's better to take the time, and provide something that is erm what is needed, rather than to just go ahead and erm do something without referring to the people it concerns. Mhm. And I think our own erm tenants' group here, is a good example of that. That although you know, erm interviewing eve if if not everybody on the flats, as many people as possible, as to what their feelings were about the flats and so on, to actually ca done all that, and involved them erm in the erm What has resulted is, the flats being vacated. Erm that took a lot of time, a lot of thought and planning. But in the end it has erm it's really paying off. And I think that's the kind of thing that needs to be done. Mhm. Erm I think we covered it briefly but erm covered it perhaps in slightly greater detail when when we had the preliminary interview a few weeks ago. Mhm. Erm you spoke a erm a a bit about erm other people outside p outside people, and their response to the actual flats, the fact that erm they saw the problems of the flats as being erm linked to the people themselves. That's right. Erm it was basically their responsibility, the the decline rather than anything else. Mhm. Erm what do you feel about that? Erm. have that feeling. Well the feeling is a erm a great lack of understanding of what it is to actually live erm in poverty. Mhm. And er you know, I feel that people are only too ready to believe erm others you know er er to believe er others you know er er to believe the people living in the flats. And don't want to see that it's any of their responsibility, at all. that people are are forced to live in the flats, and are forced to live in on the minimum Mhm. amount of money that is that they could get. As social work you've had quite a contact erm with people on the flats, erm living in the situation they actually most people in the flats. How does what what what impact does that have on the actual problems that they actually . To what ex what I'm saying is, To what extent has been living in the flats, has contributed the life on the flats that they're in. Yeah. Erm well it certainly hasn't helped the problems any . Yeah. Erm the people who have problems erm I would think, because of of feeling probably the way, they feel about living in the flats or about having to live in that way, doesn't make them feel any batter about erm you know any any other particular difficulties that they're having. And erm I think, too, the sort of when you've got all people herded together, all people with problems, there are very few who can help themselves and help each other. And therefore it just becomes a heavier and heavier burden. Mhm. Whereas if erm you know, the housing policy was such that er people aren't herded together in that way, erm then people can help each other. Mhm. Areas can help each other. Mhm. So what you're saying is that erm as most people are s such a high percentage of people in the flats, have pr have erm serious problems, it means it's basically th basically that all all their energy goes into actually trying to Trying to survive . get by themselves, survive themselves rather than being able to help others. Yes I think that, jut having said the word survive, there erm, makes me think of if er they are actually surviving, but not living. And you actually having lived in the flats, you saw that erm first hand. Yes. Yeah. You've worked am I right in saying, have you worked on the flats You'd had contact had you, with people in the flats erm prior to Yes I'd had contact erm with people in flats since about, ooh nineteen Mhm. seventy eight or so. Mhm. And er So actually seeing though first time, how much of a shock did it come to you, or was it just or was it expected ? Erm well I think you know, having a th my I think my first visit to the fl to the flat complex was a big shock. Mhm. Erm because I'd never actually been in the flats before. And erm come here a young girl and a baby, and helping to install her in in on one of the flats, and just sort of e th there was something erm happened to be wrong with one of the rubbish chutes at that time, and we were actually kicking our way through rubbish on the stairs, erm near the chute to to get erm to come up. And I think that really erm horrified me. That this was the way people had to live. And er but erm I think my erm sort of brief contacts with coming and visiting, when I actually came to live on the flats, erm I I knew what to expect and er and erm I wasn't I wasn't surprised at erm you know, how what the living conditions were like. Mhm. How did as mo as as we've erm said, most people in the flats actually flats actually live on erm benefits, erm how how di how did people get by? I mean was it e day to day living? Yes Erm I think it was it was day to day living and er which in some ways could be more expensive than if Mhm. they were able to do a bit of erm say shopping for erm a longer period. I know sometimes erm people when they got their benefit, would try and do shopping for two weeks, but even that was unrealistic of how long they were, what they were buying was going to last for two weeks. Erm and so it was sort of going to the corner shop and buying what they could, er when they had the money, and sometimes they would borrow money from somebody whose benefit came on a different day. And er to to try and tide them over. But then again, when their own benefit came, that was a chunk out of it. To start with, you know. And er so it really was a hand to mouth existence and going without. Mhm. Living on very little. And yet how successful were people in getting ? Some people I I Yeah. think were erm well to be quite truthful I don't know how they managed to exist on it and have a little bit for the occasional treat, erm or to have a a packet of cigarettes or whatever. Erm how they managed to to survive on it, erm you know you just you you you wonder how they can. Mhm. And yet some people managed to do i Yeah Because it's so little. Some people managed to do that. Yeah. but I think at greater expense because they ad to go without, quite a lot, and especially people with children. They they very seldom bought things for themselves, it was spent on the children. And I know I mean er people who just went round jumble sales erm to try and get clothing for themselves Mhm. and for the children. Mhm. And and I'm quite sure that many of the people erm living in the flats, never had anything new. They didn't have the experience of buying something nice and new for themselves. Mm. I know you mentioned something erm earlier on. Erm perhaps when we today, about erm clothing that you managed to get together Yeah well I I had erm access to quite a lot of you know, quite good clothing, er both children's and adult's and erm while I didn't feel that it was that people should have to depend on someone else to give them clothing, erm in some ways it went against the grain to do it. But rather than see people going without, erm if I had access to to good clothing, I didn't see why I shouldn't give it to them. Erm because after all it wasn't their fault, but they Mhm. they couldn't afford erm clothing. So I I would erm you know, quite often get bags of clothes, and s we sorted them out, and give them to people with erm quite large families and erm we used to also get some for the tenants' association for the jumble sales. Mhm. I'd get bags of clothing and and stuff for them. As well. And what was the response of people when they actually got this? Well anybody that we gave it to, they would be highly delighted to get it. And I mean that made you feel bad as well. Er Erm you said when we left er where we left off last time, about erm about people and how delighted the they were to get second hand clothing. But that's you know, basically related to the situation that people were in. Yeah. Erm I know it's a fairly difficult question, a wide question to ask for that matter, but erm how do you feel with the society, should should erm should respond you know, to to in order to actually help areas such as Flats? It is a very wide question alright . Yes it is yeah. What are the kind of things? Yes. Er but certainly I I mean like, I mentioned before what a what areas like need is is erm certainly more money being put in to actually providing the facilities. Whether it's living facilities, or erm for facilities for people to use, er that certainly needs to be done. And I think erm as for you know, what we as a sho society should be doing, erm you know that's the whole economic policy, erm would really have to be looked at. And erm I think too, some ways of allowing people to have more power over their own lives, and not just being at the mercy of agencies, such as social services and erm Mhm. you know, because they don't know what their right are with And you know, I think places like the law centre, which fight for the rights of people in , you know to develop that that kind of service for people. Whereby erm we don't end up actually doing the things for them, but we show them the way that they can do them for themselves. Mhm. So how how do you see the role of soci social services erm At the moment? Yes how do you see at the moment how do you and how how Well How should it be, or how is it? Well h how it is erm I think maybe first, er Mhm. a lot of our erm work is i sort of the statutory things that comes to us, either through care orders or through the court or through supervision of children in particular. Erm so a lot of our time is done in that rather then in preventive or developmental erm work. And I know that you know that that was our hope in moving into the area, that we'd be able to engage local people as volunteers and you know really develop services erm in the area. But so far, because of the other pressures that are on us, that just hasn't been able to be followed Mhm. through. Erm and I I I think again like, what should erm we should be doing is more of the developmental, preventive type of work. Mhm. So what would that actually involve? You say you're saying preventative. Erm Well what would that erm being able to help families that erm have problems in coping with their children and so on. Rather than having to remove the children from them, to have more resources at our disposal, to either help erm parents to to develop better parenting skills, or erm I mean,because a lot of the problems again are from poverty, a lot of the pressures are from poverty. And you know i if a chil a child is bruised, very often erm you know if it it especially with you know, maybe a mother who has a few children to look after, and she's on her own twenty four hours a day with them. Erm it is no wonder that she would lash out at a child. You know with the and when she doesn't know where she's going to get enough money to feed, clothe them and especially at a time like now, when all these adverts are on television for, you know the toys that children want, and they just haven't the ability to provide those those things for the children, much as they would want to do it. Mhm. How much pressure do you feel people are under in Flats under to a family? I think they're under a great pressure and you know th I think it's erm you know, quite amazing really, that people survive as well as they do, given the pressures they're that they are under. And you know, sort of given the given the lack of sort of environmental helps. Erm because i I mean, even living in can be a depressing experience in itself. Sort of looking out of your window and seeing just a blank concrete wall in front of you, day after day after day. Erm doesn't do much to lift your spirits if you're getting up feeling a bit down in the morning. Mhm. So that kind of pressure Mhm. er the pressure of erm coping with children in in that kind of environment, without enough money really, and also erm you know, things like having sleepless nights because of noise and things like that, and having to get up and cope. Erm just the same as if you had had a good nights sleep. Mhm. How much of a problem had the noise been? Well at times,s erm you know the the noise from blues parties could be really distressing. Mhm. And I mean whenever there was one in the flats, you could hear it probably throughout the whole complex. Erm but you know when it was in a block that was fairly near you, erm er I think probably children were the least affected by it, because er I think they adapt to things like that more quickly. But I mean a mother that couldn't sleep all night, and get up the next day, having to cope with the family, erm you know,thing things like that, they're very difficult. Mhm. with regard to blues parties, Mm. erm what is your attitude towards them I mean, obviously something I suppose that people who actually take p who actually go see it as being a form of en enjoyment for them. Yeah. Erm yet at the same time,obvi at the same time, it's affecting other people in the actual flats, so what is the solution? Erm To that? I mean do you actually stop blues parties full stop I don't think or do you lose them s somewhere else? Yeah I think moving them somewhere else, erm which would be a a maybe a bit further away, Mhm. erm from where people are actually living and trying to to get a nights sleep. Erm I know I remember I spoke to erm I said in an earl the earlier part of the Mm mhm. interview, that we didn't have erm much sort of inroads with the the young Caribbean community or the Rastafarian community, but erm you know I have spoken to one or two, and I remember speaking to one who said, that they had gone after a warehouse somewhere. Erm I think it's somewhere down near where the Road police station is now, and erm you know they had been hoping to get premises down there. And something like that I thought would have been a very good solution. Mhm. Because they would be still free to go to their parties and they they wouldn't be affecting neighbours in that way. Mhm. earlier we mentioned about erm particularly about the actual stress that can people can g in erm living in the flats and also the financial difficulties. Erm what social services erm policy say with regard to there's a certain amount of money available t say for if people came to family. And they happen to have a bill they can't pay. In that situation, social services do have certain We do have erm it's rather you know, it's it's quite a small amount Mhm. really when you think of the extent of the problems in the area. So erm and how we use that money is at our discretion. Mhm. There is a certain amount of money for f families. And I mean I'm talking in matter of a few thousand pounds, to do for for a whole year. And erm so we the the way we work it out ourselves, is that we don't actually pay people's fuel bills. Mhm. What we have done, when they've been cut off with erm electricity in particular, erm we liaise with D H S S for them to help their erm to get their their deductions made a at a level which doesn't leave them erm you know too short of money. And we also have paid for the reconnection fee. Cos usually, if it's been cut off, there's a about twelve fifty or something, to be reconnected. Mhm. we pay the rec reconnection fee, but not the electricity bill . Mhm. And we also have given out food erm and money for food. If someone comes and they've actually run out of food, and they've you know, for some reason or other their giro is either held up or you know, they've had a big expense er which they've had to pay, then we would provide them with something. Erm to keep them to tide them over. Mhm. But at the same time, we are not er doing that, and letting D H S S out of s the the kind of provision they ought Mhm. to be making. I think if if we just hand out money for those kind of things, then the pressure is taken off D H S S Mhm. and that's not right either. Mhm. So do you, as a social worker, have much erm do much work with D H S S? Yes we we have erm a lot of connection with D H S S Mhm. erm you know we know the special case officers in each of the areas, and we also liaise erm on behalf of people who come in with problems to them. We also provide the facility of the telephone here. For people to make their own connections to the Mhm. D H S S, because very often, they either can't get telephone boxes working, or they're hanging on so long that they don't have enough money Mhm. to put in to the box. Mhm. So you know we we provide that kind of service . mhm. We also you know, do our best to to get them to er pay pay up when er when when they can, but I mean we're not always successful in that. Especially now with the single payments being cut back so drastically. Mhm. And what kind of impact is that likely to have, the cutback on single payments ? Well it I mean already, it is having quite an im impact erm especially for items like furniture and bedding, and I mean bedding doesn't last for ever, especially with a family, and I know erm they're allowed every so often , but erm I mean I think erm the the cutbacks are becoming more and more and more and and people seem to be which means that we have to look around for voluntary erm agencies that ca such as , who can provide us with furniture or beds and bedding. So that's erm in areas such as Flats and the effects are pretty serious Yes. the ch the change in policy. Yes. Yeah. Mhm. How does it make you feel, you know as a social worker, erm when whatever you in whatever you do, every you do, no matter how effective you are, that you're That when you leave those people, they're in they're basically in that same situation and equally v and still vulnerable. Yeah. Erm Erm well it doesn't make you feel very good. Er I mean, I I would say that the majority of people in this office, carry a lot of erm anxiety and pressure home with them. Mhm. Er just because of this, you know, precise thing. That erm you know, whatever you do, is very little, and we're not really taking the pressure off, very much. Mhm. I know that erm that we haven't real haven't covered in great deta detail is erm, how you yourself became a social worker and career background. Erm so erm you've been a social worker for how many years? I've been a social worker since nineteen seventy, so ten years this year. Ten years? Yeah. Erm I went into residential social work first, erm but that was after twenty years of teaching erm in various parts of the country, I was in , Bradford, and then I spent seven years in Africa, where I also erm was a teacher, and when I came back from Africa, I was asked if I would just replace someone that was going on a course, in a residential er the mother and baby home it was actually. And so I said, Yes, I would do that for the year and then I'd get back into teaching. But when I actually erm got into the social work side of it, and i saw what the needs there were, erm and it was at the particular time too when you know, lots of teachers were sort of being made redundant, or at at least the er the numbers in schools weren't so high. And I felt that that there was more pressure in social work than there was in teaching. There was a greater need for social workers. So I spent two years in the mother and baby home, then, and decided that if I was going to stay in social work, then I would erm be better a able to help people if I could do it from the theoretical background as well as the feeling erm background er of my own my own personal feelings. Erm so I did the two year C C Q S W course. I went back to the mother and baby home, for another almost two years, and from there that was I think I said at the beginning, how I actually was introduced to Flats, and it was actually living at the mother and baby home, doing far more work with girls Mhm. who moved out, that led me to want to live in the flats. Mhm. Do you the fact that you actually lived in the flats few years er at the same with you working on the flats as well. How much of a benefit has that been, the fact that people are seeing you i as a as a professional who you know, who works for social services, Mhm. living amongst amongst that, I mean Erm but the first year that I was in the Yeah. flats, I was I was working erm in with a voluntary agency. Yes. I wasn't actually with Social Services . Mhm. Although I was doing the same kind of of erm work. And then, as the job came up with Social Services, and I joined it, I did have some reservations, because I felt that maybe people would see me as sort of having deserted them and joined them , you know, er brilliant movie? Thank you. Mhm. but for what I am. Mhm. And er that they they still, even when I have to do things, which are not very erm happy either for me or for them, erm I'll just give the example of removing a child from Mhm. the parents, erm well that is very difficult on both sides. Erm I I still feel that there is an element of trust that people have in me, erm because of having lived with them. Mm. Mhm. But I mean, how how often does that happen anyway?is that I presume that's very much a last resort. It's ve Yeah, very much a last resort and it's usually, erm as a result of ill treatment. You know, that that that Mhm. that we would have to do that. And not always, you know, it's not always the parents who have who have erm either bruised the child or something but Mhm. perhaps they've left them with someone who has done that. Mhm. You know the kind of erm the kind of accident that can happen . Mhm. Erm and you know there's er you know really er it's something that we're not the only ones who make the decision. While we actually do the a the removal, we usually have other agencies with us such as the N S P C C, the police, who have to carry out the investigation into what has actually happened, and erm in the end the court. Because if the court doesn't say that, Yeah, this child must remain in care, erm you know. But we actually do the removal. Mm. And er you know that's quite traumatic. Mhm. Have there been many cases on the flats or has this been a Well Er erm dunno that I mean, there have been some in the area, which haven't been that flats as well. Mhm. You know. Erm in my own, particular case, I have done it twice. Mhm. Mhm. Is there any danger that erm that it could happen more, er that you could have the same happening say in Flats as a similar thing happening say in erm more middle class areas, such as, yet erm there being more risk of of it of it of erm parents losing the child, say in some areas such as Flats, and yet in , Erm somehow that Well I I I would say that if it comes to the attention of Social Services, that we would treat it the same. Mhm. In that we would go through the same procedure, whether they lived in Mhm. or in . Mhm. Erm you know, we're not out to get to get them. And I think that's the you know, a general feeling, that's not just me. You know from knowing how it affects other Mhm. workers as well. Mhm. Yeah would you would you say that it's erm it's A, more of a problem in places such as Flats, anyway than than say ? Is it is it any more problem there? Well I would say that the people in Flats are under greater pressure. Mhm. And you know, I would say that erm because of the pressures, it is likely that people Yeah. erm might lash out more. It's not surprising considering Mhm. the pressures. Mhm. But that's but that's erm not particula not because of the people, it's actually No. because of the environment those people are , isn't it ? Yeah. I would think that. Mhm. Erm do you know you you've you spoke erm earlier erm about the church, erm how do you see how so you se do you see the role of the church, erm in ar in er inner cities? What what do you think they could do do? Erm well I think, what they have to do first, is Mhm. is to align themselves with the people. Mhm. Erm and I think actually being part of them and you know like, inner city churches, living right the you know the vicar's and the the congregation's not just coming from say to , but actually living in the area. And er just sort of by their lives, becoming relevant as well. Mhm. And I I think I must say that i it's well certainly in Nottingham, my experience is that the church of England is and perhaps other churches, are more aware of this than the catholic church is. Even though i belong to the catholic church, that's my feeling, erm and my experience, I would say, since living in . Mhm. So is that I mean to what extent do you feel erm the ch the church generally has moved along the road that you'd like to see it? Move. Erm it's it's moving, I think, slowly. Mhm. First of all it's becoming aware Mhm. it's becoming aware that people who live in the inner cities are not bad. Mhm. That a lot of it is due to the the living conditions and the unemployment and all the rest of it. I think, and once the awareness is there, then the movement can begin. And I think that's what is happening. Mhm. Is the heating on? Mm. Yep. I thought Jean was on tonight? No. Jean? Yeah. Nope. Erm I've glad you've come cos this is as far as I can get. Well It's you that's got my other cane. Er did you say heating was on? Yeah. I put it on. Right. Erm the next time I take a delivery Yeah. if there's no fucking cellar key it's stopping outside on the promenade! I am not lugging it up them flipping stairs again! Well who had the cellar oh, you had it, cos he was cleaning the light out. Yeah, alright. What about that? Frightening. He's lying. Why are all the lights out? Because they haven't put the bulbs back in. Brilliant! And you got a shock off them last time so I'm not doing it. Why didn't you just leave it in the erm inside the front player? What on Friday? Yeah. And, and Oh! Course. stock, fill, opening Yeah. time at eight? Oh! They were still here weren't well when did you return them? He was meant to be here at er one o'clock, half past one. He turned up at Michael's door at half four. Well I've actually got a spare cellar key. I mean, you know, I mean now it's irrelevant but cos Jean's, well Jean's got one. Jean's got one. Geoff er had a problem with transport so I rang A B A Disco shouting and screaming at Alistaire about if I sit here any longer you're gonna have to chip me off, I'm frozen! And I hadn't got any change. I've ten quid's worth of fifty pieces that's all I could get. Well haven't we got any from last night? Very little. I took eighty five pounds to get change. Well yeah, two pound fifty is very little. Yeah. Four pound fifty. And I've got a tenner's worth in all in all sort. And I've been going to the shop and changing a note every time for the change. Oh, oh, oh! Come on. And wait till Hughey gets here, I suppose . What about er, ringing Anne at the Royal? And I'll go and, I'll nip down and get it. Yeah. Ken's not coming in till half ten. I said it was alright. He's got a family works party thing he's got to show his Yeah. face at. Right. So I said well please make sure you're in before you're to go up on the bus. And he said Yeah. he would. Cos he, he's, he's only stood about for first hour anyway. That's true. What ab erm what is what's Anne's number at the Royal do you know it offhand? No No. it's not in the book I don't think. Isn't it? Yeah. Oh! Sh Jean'll know. Jean will be in won't she? She said they Conference, she was telling me. No. Yeah I know, she's at the erm tt no, Anne's at the blo Sportsman's dinner as well. It's half past Well won't there be Charlie or Bob will be in? Surely? I think Rob's gone with her. And Charlie's in but I don't get on with him. I wonder who's gonna wander in. Roy . Carlisle, Kirby Lonsdale Morecambe Main Road three five seven? No. I co we'll have to read it No. But, two five down won't we? seven the Main Road does sound Ah! Yeah. Yeah. What's his name? Charlie. Charlie's barman, he comes in here. Is he the guy with the the tache? Is he Rob's brother? I don't know if he's his brother or not. Yeah, he's the younger But it's hi of the two. he's the landlo er I mean he's the licensee with Rob? No. Rob's There's two of them ma no there's two of them Yes. Rob and somebody With Charlie. the other guy. Charlie. It's Cha Charlie is it? How could Carnarvon not have any change? Because they hadn't, I'd, they usually say ring after one so I rang at half past one and they'd emptied all the machines and everything. Your drink's there. A so we you, you and the Securicor you made that dance last night. Why? Because it's so fucking cold down there! And then when, when it's cold down there I Gotta make cups of tea coming down every half hour. Is that enough? Is that in your tee? I can run home and get some. No you can't cos Ken, Ken's not coming in till half ten. Eh? What's he on, part time? Yeah, it was five o'clock this morning when we got out of here. Was it? Oh! What for now? Finally decided He now. he brought the be the bloody ants back last night didn't they? Oh it's erm Yeah, but it was only about half three the week before. Yeah, that was the little ant. We had the big ants back with just all talk. And there's seventy five What do we, what do we like to stock. We need Pils. She never said that today. There were what we got delivered yesterday was all we had, apart from a few bottles Yeah I know that. and it was a four barrels of Carlsberg. No, no, no. No, no, no, no! I, cos I brought three crates of Pa Pils the day before. Thur Thursday. Were they in the cellar? No they were oh no we brought them up and put on the shelf. Oh well everything's up. Is everything up out the cellar? Oh, is that is that Barry. Hugh? What have Hughey. you got in the cellar? Hughey. Have we got anything in the cellar? Some, you told us that. Well anyway, check. Erm well Well ah! What? Could you change that? What is it? It's a giro. Well yeah, I can at some stage. Well, er no but it's that little lad that hangs around at Chrissie's. Chris is looking for you. Yeah, he's just in there. Oh. What is it? It's a Giro for seventy nine pound. Well I can't at the moment can I? No, obviously. So Yeah. Well put another five cases of Pils. Well do you want me to go in the cellar see what we've got? Yeah, well well hang on a, hang on a sec Well you might do, cos I'm not sure on there. Hang on a sec Hughey, before you do that, do you think we'll be able to get any change from th from erm What? Yeah. Do you want me to go and see? Yeah. I mean I'll get some while I'm out , give me some money. Well, it Well, no might be enough to cover it. Terri told Well what's that? That's for the whisky. Terri to Oh that's Jean's office money. Terri took some money but she couldn't get any change so I couldn't get any. just stick that in the till Terri, can you? You gonna come down? Yeah. Yeah, I'll come, I'll come down with you. Erm what are you, what have you got here? I dunno. Er, seventy five. Eighty five Well basically altogether. basically we need the pounds and Everything. fifties and Everything. Twenties, and tens Everything. and fives? We've got plenty of copper. Don't get any copper. We were absolutely fucked! We hadn't even we for fifty fucking P! What did I say to you? Forty P in copper. That's all we could do. Eh up! I've got Jean's office key now. Oh, and Jean's front door key. I bet Jean's office, I bet Jean's office key is fucking Jean's Are you ? It's my . I erm Forty, sixty, seventy It's the office and the front door that are Jean's then. seventy five. I'll get somebody out here as well if you hurry up and give me that. Seventy five's not enough is it? Well, that's what they gave me. We'll get the we'll get some on the front door as soon people are . Well I need thirty for the front door don't I? Shit! Of course, yeah. Right well yo well you might as well bring it down I'll see if I can somebody Yeah. in, so Alright. And I'll get these sorted out. Yeah. Get, Terri, get security to give you erm a hand and get the shutters open, at least Yeah. when you're ready and Hughey? Yeah. So last night was reasonably busy was it? Oh! Fucking good night! A great atmosphere as well. Was it? Yeah, Jean said there was about two hund two hundred sitting I took about, I took about six hundred. Have you? Yeah. Oh! Good. Jean said there was about two hundred in or something. Well, Ken said three hundred people, but there's no way there was three No. hundred people. But, they reckon it was about a hundred and ninety in. Or did they I mean he gave, he gave fifty baps away. Yeah. You know but were all the you know the short ones and everything and he had a blitz on them. Where are we at? Eh? Where are we going?. Alright. It's gonna be it's gonna be er eleven o sort of eleven o'clockish before I'm gonna have to go. Okay then.. Yeah. Do you wanna just see if there's anything in there and Yeah. Have you got any Ah yeah. I don't think there is. No, I, I don't think there is, but five cases of Pils. No, there can't be anything there because Terri said she'd brought it all upstairs as soon as the brewery bought it in. Yeah, but you're, you're Yeah. a bit keen aren't you? The cra we'll bring everything up. I I brought a barrel of lager for er from downstairs and then it's all that we had. .Yeah. Terri could always go back and get started with this. Yeah. Cos I could we could do with getting a a case, erm do you think we need a case of cans of Pils? How many have we got? She said about four or five cases. I dunno. Put it up there. Probably will actually. I mean, we only go to eight normally on a, a Friday and Saturday. Yeah we sold a lot last night. Have we, have we got ma have we got any Red Stripe? Not a lot. Yeah, but I mean we've got some Red Stripe Yeah. have we? A couple of cases or something? I dunno I've not checked like. Terry said she was doing the stock so I left it to her. Where are we going? Well the upstairs, downstairs . Hopefully it'll still be open. Open till ten o'clock? Mm. Ten to ten. I don't think there's any point. So we need, pound coins, fifties You'll need forty pounds won't you? Need forty of pounds Well that's a, that's We need twenty of Fifties. fifties No. Yeah we do. Ten for the front door and ten for the till. That's sixty. And fifteen quid of erm Tens. tens. Oh. And you've got, you've got copper we can use for for five Ps haven't we? Yeah. I'll see if we can get any more I've got, I, I've got er got another twenty quid. Is it open? See if I can get a Okay. from here. There's seventy five there. And you want forty worth of pound coins Yeah. twenty and fifties. Aha. And tens? Yeah. And twenties? I'll get twenties and ten pence if you want? Well yeah, don't really matter does it? No, they're fucking stuck! Thirty quid, that's it. Fuck! I, I might get forty pounds at the Empire Ballroom. Mm. He's difficult. Well he He give me fucking I'll tell you he give me some a couple of months ago when we . Well I'm er he wants me to He just needs showing . He wants me I mean he wants to do me a favour, Paul, so he might gi he might, you know I mean he say for us, I mean for us he would Yeah, well Peter's alright, he'll cash you . I hope . So I got thirty, thirty in tens so Mm. Ah Jesus! Well, oh, oh seventy five you give me did you? Yeah. Oh right. I should have give him a fiver . The only other one is Anne? No. She's at she won't. Er what do you call him across at the er Oh! Right. . Absolutely. Yeah. What do we want? We just Well we've we wa got forty five now, we want pound coins and erm I thought we're going there? I don't really know what he's given me here. If it's a lot of tens. I'll get instead of fifties and fucking we just give them the five pound Yeah. . And Yeah, I'll soon get some fifties back. I mean, it just needs some early on that's all. Yeah. And twenties. And a bag of twenties don't you? Yeah, thirty quid. These are twenty and fifties and tens. Where's best way? Just down straight there? Yeah. Yeah. I'll turn it round while you you nip in. What time is it? Ten. Ten? Yeah. That's alright. I'll be on . What d'ya say, half ten did he say? Ken? Yeah. Yeah. There's only thirteen cans of Red Stripe left. Four and a half cases full. So that's twenty five cases? Yeah.. Okay. Where is he do you know? Ken? Dunno. He's at er, Terri said he's not coming in so Well, he's at some de there's some firms do or something on apparently Right. that he's got should Got should make an appearance at or something. Oh well. I mean, nothing happens till Well just say, like last night we didn't open till half ten really, you don't get anybody in at before then. No. I mean it's just when er, he's basically It's like going for the bus innit? That Yeah. But you get like them thing or owt. Yeah. Cos it were sat there with er couple of,couple of cans of lager . Well when I, I saw him come in door at this end and I thought oh well, I'll follow them see if they've gone back and they were sat, well it must have been behind the back Yeah. and I looked oh Yeah. did say Oh like, you know. Oh yeah. Well one of them went to erm one of them went to the er toilet or something and left a an open full can there and Hughey, so Hughey just picked it up oh thank you! He said, eh you, you can't do that! Course you can. What d'ya think you're doing here? So I helped. Bloody good night last night. Yeah. Erm We No I think it was, I think it was just over two hundred on, but I don't think it was Terri reckons about three fifty. Nah! But erm I think she's getting carried away a bit there. Probably. She was. She, probably try and impress on us how hard she worked. Yeah. That won't be very hard. No. Oh dear! Eh? Well my daughter's like really and into rave so I . But now with that well I've done my head in! True. I was gonna say, I didn't think it was your type of music. No. This isn't really. Innit? But I can stand this better than that one Yeah. Why what is your type Motown of music? Status Quo, Genesis Fleetwood Mac and a bit of Motown on there. Some as well actually. Mm. You get used to it. Mm. Better than Thursday night when Mick 's doing it, when he's doing the er sort of thrash metal for Mm. an hour and half solid! Yeah. A bit heavy going. I sound like, I sound like my mum and dad though when I'm criticizing it, you know. All sounds the same, it's just a noise and you know, you can't th the words ! Well you You sound like your mum and dad criticizing the music, you know. Sixties and seventies. Ninety perce ninety percent of records in charts today there's no words anyway are they? Mm. It's all music. No that's right. So, anyway, it's not even that is it? It's all computerized today Yeah. so er Mm. electrical effects and Do that, bloody wanna tape on. Well you are we can get Dawn's brother if you want. Well if I knew who the hell Dawn's brother was! Well I'll take him to see And he wears I mean he's a big skinny with glasses and whatever. You got some change have you? But nobody else. Yeah. I did. My hero! Shut up! and rock and roll. Your hero? Hughey ! Yeah. How are we off for Newquay? We've got loads. We haven't sold any of those for a long time. Ah! We may need some bottles here packing up. Right. Okay. Well what time are you coming next, next week? I'll do eight. Says he's gonna open tomorrow night. Yeah. There's a set of gamblers on a Friday night so we er fucking try to use some more it wasn't Mm. open at four. Ooh ! Jean's in next week, yeah? Big city job. Oh yeah, yeah. Bet you fucking lay down the law alright. See she sounds like a wimp though. My anguish, my life's shattered sort of thing! God! The last thing I'd do when I get Mr . Especially when . Yeah . Yeah. It's a, is it in, and he's just saying that the develop redevelopment starts in autumn? Yeah. I mean I Summat in autumn. I think it's, I think that's erm well it's not exactly a bluff, but it's, it's a case of er what they hope will happ hope will happen. Er I don't think are pulling out but they, they've suspended things, but I mean they just don't know if they're competing. They just the politics . Yeah. I mean, they can't possibly erm you know, cos they Mm. can't, you can't accuse just Jean of corruption, they've got to they've got to accuse the development corporation of corruption as well. You know, cos you can't be corrupt just on one person, you've gotta have two people playing Oh aye. but, you know. So th to a, you know, and as said, you know we erm we don't need to bribe anybody to come into Morecambe. Right. You know nobody else would come in! No, that's it. You know, that's just my point, you know . Nobody wants to come here and spend money do they? No. Oh well! It just, I think it, I think it affected us last week so erm cos the, the Friday night was well down. Mm. It was only, only about ninety people two hundred people Friday. I think it was overspeculated in the press that we've sold the premises and it, it well gave the impression that perhaps we might be open you know, some people might not think we're open even. Well that's what, what I said on Saturday Yeah. they didn't think they'd be open, you know. Yeah. When they come for tea, you know Mm. on Friday, thought they were closed. Yeah. Mm. And if you're coming through from Lancaster, you know, as soon a it's a far old drag innit? After the pubs are closed, on the off-chance, I mean, cos if you get here what the hell do you do if not as if you've got an alternative is there? No. You know. If yo if you're gonna come here yo you're the ki not on a Saturday night, you're not the kind of clientele that's gonna go to the Empire Oh no. Prince's Tea Rooms and so you gotta traipse all the way back into Lancaster to go Mm. to The Alley. Yeah. What like, putting a bus on which shows you that you was open like, you know Mm. put a bus on on a Wednesday night. Yeah, that's right. So How do! Oh! Hello Mark. Hi. It must be cold, it's bloody coming off you. Bloody freezing out there! Oh well! Are you su are you sure the heating's on? Terri turned it on. I know. I just wonder sometimes when Terri turns things on. It is very cold! Last last time she put the ventilation on instead. Can you just hang about here I'll just go and check. Okay. Bet it's blasting cold air out for an hour! Anyway, sod though Mark! What about it? Well you're a wor you're a blooming big girl! You can't stand the cold. Cor! It's the, blasting the heat out in there Mark. I don't know Is it though? Yes. Oh it's It's phew! What a scorcher! There's people up there in their underpants! Well I wanna see the people that It's nothing to do with the climate. Am I right in in thinking that we're having some new speakers? Yes. Why? Well, what we're doing is putting the erm ha! We're putting the the tannoy system back in. Right. Into operation. and everything's back out again Yeah. and it's Right. Well you know the oogamyflip's du in there. Four speakers around the dance floor and er two big bass things. Mm. Mick's gonna, getting those together and Yeah I know. Cos they, they kept blowing before though didn't they, those? If I remember rightly. Well yeah. Did they? Yeah, but it was only really, we had that we had those soul D Js that, that, that were blowing them that was the problem. Yeah. And they shouldn't have blown. Now there's some mild mannered rock D J to to look after the speakers. True. I hear you were at the Empire the other night? I was indeed, yes. Just sniffing about, you know see what's going on. How many were in? Four hundred or so. That bad is it? Wednesday night! Cos I thought, I was quite impressed. And I thought Yeah. flipping hell! They're doing summat right. He's bashing down from the campus. How much is it to get in? A quid. Cheap drinks. Yeah well I mean a quid a pint or something isn't it? Yeah. A pound a pint for lager, and one twenty for Pils. That's I mean, so there's he's still making a reasonable mark- up on that. Mm. I mean well, not a reasonable mar he's still making money on the drinks Mm. it's not as if you're like selling them at cost and making a few pence because Mm mm. No. I must say I was quite surpri I've never set foot in the place before since that time we went down before it was open. Yeah. Really? Mhm. Mm. Yeah, I've got my band playing down there in a couple of weeks. You know, Line Birds. Cos, they'll be down there. Oh! Your la your lads? Yeah. At the er and they have a band on that night that I just called on for the Is that the one that they had some problems with the er rugby club? Yeah. And they were standing in the front as I'm going Like this. And they we I don't think they were very amused. The band or the rugby club? Yeah, er well both by all account ! Well I dunno, I don't know what it is. Very unusual. They start wanker bit, you know, it's like all they tend to do. Mm. They're only small lads, you know, sort of playing guitars and stuff. I don't think they were gonna play anything. Because there's only a couple, they only had a couple of security guards didn't they? Ooh! I know. Outside. Well Yeah. Nigel was saying that they only had a couple, you know, cos they like you Well it's hard to tell, the manager's a bouncer isn't he? Er he looked Oh yeah. Paul? He used to be Mm. he used to, he used to do bouncer there, yeah. Yeah I swore I'd seen him before. Yeah. I couldn't work out where I'd seen him. He was here from the very first cos he worked for Hills, you know that sort of Mm. gangster crew from Blackpool! Mhm. Erm, he worked, he was their sort of erm they had a few clubs and pubs in this area at the time and er Mm. he was that sort of head of the Yeah, I know what yo yeah, I'm sure I'd seen him before. And troubleshot around various establishments. Then he went so solo, he he got erm er doing regular thing up at erm Ocean Heads I think, or summat. Oh! But definitely so he sort of went on his own and then went back into building and decorating and then when the Empire opened he started there from the off. But now he sort of seems to be with other contracts. Mm. Cos the last I see he's been made redundant now hasn't he? Oh! You don't know it, you won't know it then. No. Then Mar this guy called Mark is there I think. But Paul's head over that now so I mean he's doing well for himself. Mm. Yeah, well I was erm I was trying to get get a night down there deejaying as well. I wa I was told you had got one. Mm? I was told you'd got one or two? Yeah. In fact, I was told you'd got two nights! Have I? Oh! That's nice to know isn't it ? Well it was from the er you know Radio Lancashire Nigel misfit! Oh I see ! Well, fair enough. No, I mean I went in, I was talking to this, this bloke Walking round bit of Pathay News! so I thought Yeah. Entertainment's Manager Yeah. sort of DJs every night Yeah. and Yeah. he was sort of been doing this job for a week. He's booked a load of bands ain't he? Mm. What d'ya think they but I mean, well, I mean I'm a little bit out of touch on that sort of Well he's level, I mean been doing Two Unlimited, Rosearre and all Yeah. this sort of you know, these sort of sort of wa what are P P A jobs really. Yes. Yeah. Sing a couple of songs and er Yeah. over a backing tape and and that's it. I don't know cos I've never actually erm been in a place where they've done sort of thing really. Yeah. Two Unlimited's the first one I think. Well they've er, done a couple of couple of I mean if that does, er er, I mean Two Unlimited ought to do alright. If Mm. if it, if it's gonna do alright then that'll be Mm. reasonable. But it's getting a bit carried away, I mean, he was talking to Nigel about er doing er the Levellers in er Mm. in the tent, you know. Doubt if you put, oh, we can put four and half thousand people into that! Well,. Well, yeah. Yeah, he was also he said most of them, he said er Seven hundred in the Sugar House maybe. well they're playing Guild Hall aren't they? Yeah, but yeah. Difference between playing Guild Hall and filling Guild Hall. Mm. True. I dunno they're, they're damn popular if only, I mean Yeah. I know It was one of the best but I would, I wouldn't have sa selling albums of last year. Yeah. Yeah. I wouldn't, I, I mean, yeah, but I mean I wouldn't have thought I mean they're certainly No it wouldn't do four thousand No. I mean I mean I wouldn't you No. know. I would have thought that for Morecambe they're probably looking at like a thousand eleven hundred people if, you know Yeah. would be a good one. I would have thought. Yeah. Well I'm sort of like. Depends on timing Foot in the door a bit see, see if I can sort of, you know You alright? Hello Kenneth? Alright. I'm just starting to . You know, what he's doing really so Yeah. sort of well a couple of nights deejaying will do me for a start really. Who's doing a Wednesday night then? Well, he's doing it, last wee I wouldn't mind doing the Wednesday actually cos I can do that sort of you know, student discos, you know, so Yep. and I don't have to go to work on Thursday, so you know th that always helps. Right. So likewise the Saturday nights here, I'm alright I don't have to get up in the morning. Mm. Ha. Yeah. What is it on Wednesday, is it ten till, ten till two, or nine till two or Erm what do they do a bus shuttle? Er, I think they have, I think they'd have, I think they have two buses on er er a week so and then they go back if there's any more. It's a long haul that innit though? Mm. Here. I mean, how many students are from Morecambe nowadays? Er, d'ya know? I've no idea. Must be a fair number. I've no idea to be honest. There's not as many as there used to be. No. No, no, no. I mean we when I when I came here it was virtually, virtually half, half the population of that. And then there was maybe a thousand people out of out of Morecambe. Mm. That's it. And the Uni was then only about two thousand eight hundred strong. Mm. But there's quite a lot of erm development in Lancaster now. They're doing loads of erm, flats and there's all those, all that stuff round Highcross area. Yeah. But . Is it? I think so, but well that's part of St. Martin's College really, isn't it that er Some of it is. I thought some of it was the Uni. But, you know, I mean, if the Uni goes to ten thousand in what what is it, it's getting up for about ninety five, ninety six? It's quite quick. Something like that. It's Yeah. very quick really. Yeah, I mean that, well it's only fo well it's four, five thousand now? But I mean you're talking Six. It's five. Well, whatever. Six. You're talking about Mm. doubling in size basically aren't you in, in in the next three years? Mm. That's going some! Well then I'll have to get an extension. It's like sardines now in there. Yeah. I know, it's unpleasant innit? It's always been popular along with students ain't it? Aye. Like the only pub that is. Well Barry's doing alright now. Is he? He's sort of got students in there new landlord and all that so I think. It's always packed out with students these days. Must have got some student then? That's right. It's er Mind you, it's convenient for the Sugar House innit? Yeah. I mean I always thought, I always thought The Tramway The Yorkshire, and were always gonna do quite well out the Sugar House Mm. but in actual fact it, it was only really The Yorkshire House did anything direct Yeah. out of it. Whereas the was that And, cos Carole went in grotty little pub though weren't Yeah. it? Really, I mean Yeah. Yeah, but it should have done alright. Yeah. What's that er And they, sort of a young sort of landlord, you know, and he sort of was into his real ales and he got guest beers in and all this sort of thing which got a better . What you talking about, The Firing Arm? Mm. Yeah. There's that free house, that's quite a one innit? Just along the er Oh that place, yeah. The Lord Nelson or whatever it's called. Lord Ashton. Lord Ashton, that's it. What used to be The Safe. It used to be The Safe didn't it? And they've got a bloody outside toilet haven't they? I well it's not i it's have you been in since they did it up? Once, yeah. And it's er bi bigger now than when it was befo I mean, before it was all I remember when they stuck a pool table in there and it was bloody dreadful! Mm. Went down to play pool once and I ha two pool teams in there and you couldn't move in the place. Oh ye yeah, I remember actually, I played there once. Yeah. Before it was done up. Yeah. Mm. Well we used to, I mean, I don't think did they? That might be an idea, a DJ . Not in there. There bloody is! There is! There's two punters. They'll sit in the corridor! Well that's cos the records are crap! Shit! Down Quinnen Street. North of Oh yeah! And we got last year. And he's a funny old guy! And I wasn't even talking when, I didn't know him from we were talking to him one night. I mean he doesn't have, sort of, consistent opening or anything he opens when he fancies doesn't he? Half se half seven Or he don't open at all. eight o'clock at night and yeah, that's right. One day they're open and I went there one Sunday, I thought we'll have a meal but when I looked I said no chance! Mm. Here's Ken. Bloody hell! He's in at last. Good evening people! How we doing? Hi. Evening. Evening. Is it on? Ted said it weren't on. Yeah it was. Oh I'm glad you said that. No! You alright Barry? Actually . Sort of Ken! weren't yeah? Are you coming back down? Yeah. Can you bring me a pint of lime and lemon with some i lots of ice? Yeah, course I can. Cheers, thanks. Aye, we were gonna go in for a Sunday dinner once and it was all shut, can't have my dinner. What, in the Lord Ashton? Yeah. Does he ah he does meals don't he? Does meals. What are they like? Have you e I've never been in I were No. just gonna try it. Summat different. Oh. He's got a sports club coming off soon. Mm. I think I might be going in for it. Yeah. A couple of them. Yeah. All them traffic wardens. Ha! He did have er when he opened, of course, he was one of the few houses to have in Lancaster to have Boddy didn't they? They had Boddys on the bar. Still got Boddingtons Yeah, I know, but like everybody's got Boddys now ain't they? And Whitbread's taken them over bunging them in everywhere aren't they? I mean it only, it only used to be like the The Plough and and The Bath and er New Inn and Yeah. innit really and now every pub, as I say every pub's got it on tap. I mean, it's not as nice a pint as now that Whitbread's have taken over and half the time. They reckon Lancastrians have got a good pint of Boddys. The one on Lancaster Road? No, the er the one back at . Babkins now ain't it? Babkins yeah. Oh right. Well they've got a good pint of Ruddles. Aha. Someone from work was saying they went in . God! I haven't been in there for years! And th when it was the Lancastrian you know. Yeah. Used to have a disco upstairs. One of the first pubs in Lancaster That's right. to have a disco up a regular part of the pub. Well Lancers? Yeah. Or the Lancastrian as it Yeah. was then Yeah. What I was gonna ask you actually erm or maybe I should ask Jean, I don't know erm Who? March Oh yes. erm No, ask me she won't be around then. Right. What? Saturday night Yep. A wedding private until eleven o'clock Yeah. they don't want a, they don't want a buffet or anything or just like that, just sort of Yeah, fine. get them down, and whatever, nine o'clock or whatever Yeah. they want a time to start. Yeah. And they're all the same sort of punters anyway, sort Mm. of Well I mean, are you planning on talking to them beforehand? Mm. Well Yeah. it's not too bad, it doesn't matter what you play. Mm. Yeah, I mean I was gonna say there's Yeah, I mean, as long as it, as long as it kind of they know that it might change slightly after eleven. Yeah. Well that's it. I mean, it's no it's not old, it's not the sort of folk and everything, it's just all Yeah. Yeah. sort of mates and stuff like Yeah. that. Fine. You wanna do it from what, half eight el half eight they wanted till eleven or Right. No problem! How many are you talking about? Er, I don't know yet. Erm couple of hundred maybe. Probably less. How much is it? Yeah I was gonna say, I've heard these before ! Well I know but I meant Private bookings. the trouble is, I mean they're looking for somewhere to have it. I've given out three hundred invites and sit around with Well that's reminded me the erm twenty people. the erm Lancy's is one of the places they were thinking of, upstairs. Aha. Alright. But the chances are nobody'll wanna go till after the pubs anyway with these dos so, cos it's not actually and, they're having a sort of reception after the wedding Right. for erm everyone in the family and wanting a a night do you know for Mm. for all their mates and such like. When's the when is the wedding, or when's the reception? And where? Well it's all on the same day. I reali I realized it was on the same day Mark. No but it, oh right. Er, erm, Saturday the No, a time what time are they planning Oh I don't know yet. Is there a gap, I mean how big is the gap between like the reception and the party kind of thing? Er, I haven't got a clue. I mean, are they likely to run into one another? Are people likely to stay in one and Oh no, no, I don't think so. No. I think the morning wedding, then a af sort of mi midday Mm. reception. In Torrizone or is it Garstone? Yeah. Married in Torrizone Yeah. reception in er Gallgate. I've got oh the Gallgate. What? Right there in Morecambe. And be So with, with a bunch of flowers. I don't know. Anyway, and I mean, just a, I mean it might not happen it was just like Yeah. I said, well that'll probably be alright if they wanna do it. Cos they wanted me to do the disco you see. Yeah. And I said well I'm working that night. They said, well how about you know Yeah. Who is it? Are they people I know and not rough. Erm How d'ya know them? I mean what's, who is it? Er, you, they come, they've been in here before with Yeah. the sort of lads. I don't know them very well. With glasses . They've been in here and they still want you to do the disco! Hey! I'm Mark. Well that's right. Top man me! Top man! Eh! I tell you Top man! what last Saturday Mm. I had Alistaire singing your praises! Alistaire who? Alistaire, as in loony, psychopath Alistaire! Oh right. Why's that then ? Well, he was talk we were talking about the rave and th what was wrong with it and he was saying basically it was they'd got four DJs who were all techno and they were like brilliant! He said, you know that you won't get better techno D's outside London and then, even then they could pushing it, I mean, they're all their own mixes do all their own mixes and Mm. you know, they're, and the scratching guy he said is best he's ever heard anywhere. He said, but it's the same all night long, you know . And I said, well I know nothing about that kind of music but that's the impression I got, I was just stood there at the bar thinking that last, last Friday it's not the same one , thinking, you know, this is just this is just very samey it Mm. sounds really samey. So erm oh, cheers mate! So he said yeah, he said it's like, you know it's like if played erm That you know, thrash all night long on a Saturday night you're gonna have fifty, sixty people who think it's wonderful but you're never gonna get more than fifty, sixty people. Erm so he ju he was taking it over for a couple of weeks. Anyway Alright? Hello there. You know cutting a long story short. Saying how good you were. He said to say, cos he, we were talking about DJs in general and how basically if performing artist if anything else, you know, you've still gotta react to your audience and all that sort of thing. Yeah. and he's er yes er What the hell does he know anyway? He was saying you taught, he, he taught him everything he knows! Ho! This didn't say Alistaire that I know and love. He was saying how he used to stand awestruck in the Sugar House and listen to you all night long! And learnt all the tricks of the trade. I thought he always there I thought Mark in the Sugar House he was drunk most of the time. You know Yeah , that's why he was so good. No, I said to Dean he was. Will I give him a job there? And anyway you ought to try, you ought to have tried telling him a few ! Mm. Yeah, well he does get a bit of over the top No, No. I mean this was like this was like I mean, he's not even midday on a Saturday. Yeah. Yeah. No adrenalin buzzing, no. Well he doesn't drink any more but No. He's given up smoking as well hasn't he? Aye. He was actually reasonably reasonably pleasant. Except when he went off into fi fantasy land. Battling up and down motorways in cars ! Sorting out drug dealers the length and breadth of the British Isles! Oh yeah. Regular Robin Hood. Stop and search him. Yeah. Rob Roy. Yeah, well at least it's only Rob Roy ! he owes me anyway. That he's owed me for a year! Just about. What was that from? Nothing. Yeah. Well he's got himself a B M W and he can't pay pay his record bill. Ooh! Sounds like Trevor to me. Is Trevor still buying? What happened with Brooks? Dunno. But I sa but I knew Mick was doing or something I know that. It's what? He's so open. Oh yeah! Ye yeah. Er er I know, I know. I just wonder what's I last I heard they were the receiver was trying to pull it into the collapse but er Oh! Don't know. I thought they did quite well. I thought it was go make a club . Well it's the only club in, in Lancaster that's that's the problem. Yeah, he always seems to fiddle . Well I mean the Sugar House is Mm. is Mm. a student place and always will Yeah. be and It is crap! What Brook? Brook. Cos those Oh I know. erm as town night clubs go Yeah but it's a club I mean it's and there's no alternative is there? Hi Ken! I dunno what's . And there's what have I got? Urgh brurgh brurgh, hundred and mm mm mm mm mm eighty hundred and eighty pound, must be two hundred in Ha! Yeah. Pretty good. Yeah. Must be twenty come in without and paying, and I've let a few in for Mm. Mm. bit less than two fifty. Oh! Jolly good! So it's not bad. Mm. Don't know how the bar's coping though. Oh! They're alright . Are they? I think it bi but they're doing alright. They'll manage. That's what they're there for innit? Yeah. Got no er no change at the moment that's the only problem. Yeah, always seem to be going for some er I just send er What's it? Alan. Alan. Alan. Got some at home apparently tucked away in a piggy bank or something. He's robbed it off somebody! How many Ain't he ? were on the bus then? It was absolutely jam-packed full by the sta the standing, I didn't count them. No, well Will it be ab be about ninetyish I would think. Mm. Ninety, ninety two summat like that. Yeah, we had like fifty in before, fifty, or sixty. Before the bus come? Mm mm. Came? Yeah, it's picking up again nicely. Mm. Well it's a bad time of year ain't it since Christmas? I mean January Yes, yeah that's a point. anyway, I mean, and then all the sort of ups and downs with the press publicity etcetera. Mm. Course, yeah. Yeah. One or two have mentioned on Thursday actually so I think best we're open well before. See how that goes when they feel it. Well I was just talking to Jean about that today, I mean I we've gotta keep on doing it but, I think that Yeah, if you stop now you'll get nowhere with them will you? No that's right. But I mean I think we, I think I, I will need on Monday morning to talk to er Morecambe Bay and see if I can bring forward these promotions because Yeah. until I start Yeah. I mean, we should get them back. You can't,al also I think you should start doing, having people regular again wi it's just I know. not worth it. The trouble is it's a bit of a catch twenty two because if you don't put a bus on, will you get the people? Mm. It's what you do innit? That's the problem with it. the bus for er I mean nobody actually and nobody on it. nobody's actually said to me a well where, where's the bus on a Thursday? Nobody's said it yet. When they Mm mm. start asking Mm. then that transport you could ask about putting it back on again. I mean what a what I think I'll probably do is if we can get like erm something that's obviously our crowd and then either putting, say, Stella back on or something like that Mm. and banging it out for one Can you not stick a band on pretty soon or nothing like that? Well People would think we were frankly I'm not sure where that stands . I mean talking to Charlie, just asking about getting some student bands on Yeah. might be an idea cos remember when we had that thin Mar when we had that thin Martin's band on. Yeah, but I was in I mean gonna say, stick them back on cos they Yeah. went down really well. And they brought a big following down didn't they? They brought a big following. Yeah, that's right. Er, I mean if you, if they, if they There was about a hundred with thin Martin on the other hand. Yes. Yes. It was a really good night that. If you make it known that there's stuff like that going on, if you get a band like that you can always just Mm. put a bus on for some people that come down. Mm. You get a couple of leads like that it'll start picking up Yeah. up there. That's right. So Like ya, like you say it is a difficult situation at the moment innit? Mm. And what to do for the best. Mm. Yeah. But I, I say if I get sh publicity I er if I say do, if I say cos we haven't got a premium lager on draft so if I stick Stella on draught Mm. and then do it as an offer. You Eleven best we can do in Okay. and fives. Great! So you gotta take it up Yeah. Great! there. Get it up to Terri. I'll get you a bottle full then this . Yeah. Is it like cold out? Drizzly rain though as well. Is it? Is it? Mm. Mm. Oh! Well, mind you, that That's better than frost. Yeah. Must be war Oh yes. must be warmer then mustn't it? Any good? Hello. Alright? Alright? Aha. You alright? Yep. How's ? Oh! And we tried fourteen brewery! And op You don't you don't an opp get it. an opportunity. How much is yours? Seven quid each. Seven, seven The wha the what Seven No. quid each? Another drink? Maybe . Couple of quid each. Couple of quid each? What are you Fucking hell! No he said Oh er, each? couple of quid each. You bringing that back down here then. Oh no. It's two for a quid normally. Fucking hell! He's trying to kill me this fucker! I know. Ah! Well I thought What's up with him? Him! We're stood there and all! Well you, no you were up there. Where I stood like Well, There you go. You, you Well no it's serve cups of tea upstairs or what? Afraid not. Only in That's all you need at his age innit? I says no, it's not bloody soup kitchen! Yeah. But I had, I had a go I had a good cup of tea before. Is that alright? It's one I don't know. One, one One more. It don't matter, he's got hundreds of them downstairs! I know. There's hundreds of them downstairs! But I wanna get home yet. I've gotta get home yet. Fucking hell! Come on! You'll only spend it at the bar otherwise. I wa I want a cup of tea I'm fucking Right, no, I know it's there, I know it's there's because he's got in Bloody hell! Take your Oh! What! I thought it was a joke What time do you reach from out of here then? Two o'clock. And what time's the soup kitchens open? Don't , honestly I'm not fucking joking aren't I? Well I'm not. Wah! That's disgusting ! I went with you lot. Yeah. Leave him, leave him up there. Oh yeah, you'll tell any fucker that! Oh no! Full, it's full. If there's over three thousand No, there's not that many. Alright then. If there's over two thousand and I'm gonna come back and get my fucking money back! Right. The trouble is that it I know, I say I'm going on about haven't got a copper and everything, then they walk up to the bar and pull out a great wad of notes Yeah. out of it, out of it, out of the pocket ! I know. When do you start when do you start fishing again then? D'ya think? In a couple of weeks I think. It's alright if you're Mm. I'm playing again up till no all normal now. Like that was saying if you wanted to, about three months cos I mean kept putting Mm. him off, putting him off. But I'm getting a, I'd, I'd, I'm up to normal now, I've got everything back on a normal par I think. So Mm. Mm. I start before you start, I'm going fishing now. What, you go out in the i is it in the summer when you go out the boat? Or the erm spring or summat? Well, summer, I don't know I'd like to go for about it,whe whether it's calm or not, you know if it's nice and calm but Mhm. well that's a a place like Morecambe I just couldn't be bothered. Yeah. So I go at any time late at night. I say over Christmas though my car was in its garage in bits. So that didn't go down too well with our lot but it's either that or it blow up all the time. Yeah. Do you go out far? Or do you just you fe in a in a boat or do you go out far? Depends, last time we went out, we went just off Longbay Island other side of Wallasey. Yeah I know. Yeah. So one guy caught a twenty eight pounder like. You know good fishing out there. But otherwise you stop in harbour fish . Mm. You can take your chance. How long how long can you stay out? I mean I, you know, how long does th Usually if how long's the tide and that? if you go out on a charter it's twelve hours you know, if you go for Yeah, but then you're going out a distance aren't you? To other side of Wallasey you do twelve Yeah. hours. No, I mean if you just keep using the bay Oh aye. the bay. Depends on time you go out for a time Mm. come in with tide. eight hours. Can you? Yeah. But now, this dinghy club that my mate's and he, he's got tractors at Cromer that take them out of water so Mm. Mm. he's a fisher full time. Yeah. Mm. What's it like around the power station? Is, is there, is there, are they ploughing warm water into, into there or is it Well there's warm water coming out int there? Yeah. Well I presume, I presumed there was. Yeah. Mm. That's right. I mean is it affecting any of that good fishing up there or is that Well the that a I can, certainly you can float for and the moor. Mm. Yeah. You can float from, but you get a lot of soft wind. Right. But, plenty of them around. I never use them as well as my own. That's Mm. right. Is there much mackerel around? In boat? Er like when you go out and catch mackerel you use it for fresh bait then. Yeah. So See, it's not a bad fish to eat actually, mackerel. Mind you, we don't eat fish. No. And I went to last summer we took a er I took a sha er not a sha erm tt static caravan in, at er Prestatyn an and erm Mhm. and like, we were just flicking through Ceefax on the telly and it was like one of these luxury six berth ones and it was ninety nine quid for a week and, and Really? I mean it was beautiful inside! They're normally like a two hundred and fifty, three hundred quid one Mm. but it was it was cos you had you know, you had to go that week kind of thing. So we just thought well then. Erm I took the nine year old boat out and just went out in a boat we had Mary went as well, we were like the all job for mackerel put this guy's Mhm. twelve guys on, that's what I didn't want two small mackerel caught in over Mm. three hours, you know. Poor guy was going, well I don't understand it, you know, normally we Went to erm Malta last year and there was a great erm tt it's called an underwater safari, but, you know, normally when you're, like on Windermere like you've got a glass-bottomed boats Oh have they? well this was the all, the ho all the hull underneath the water line was glass so you were actually sitting you know, you weren't looking down, you were actually sitting in, in the base of the hull of the boat Yeah. and, and going, and they went er it went out in, off to er some of these islands off er rocks and that, tour of Malta and that it was superb! You were abs you know you were er absolute, I mean it was, it was Yeah. as good as aqualunging without actually getting wet, it was great you know! Very good idea that. Must have made a fortune! It was packed like three or four times a day. Yeah. Yeah. I mean people are fascinated by the sea aren't they? They really are. Oh yeah. My wife's just gone America shark fishing. Oh yeah! Right. Yeah. Off Mexico down that way. Yeah. Marlin big marlin Yeah. That's what they call big marlin. Sixteen quid a day it is to put boat Yeah. out there. It's not much really is it? My friend went last year They pay that in bloody mackerel fishing Oh aye. for the twelve hours don't you ? Oh yeah. Yeah. He went out he went fly-drive last year, and he went down Have you seen that to Mexico. have you seen that movie, it was on erm tt I was watching a programme the other day about it. They've developed a camera for your line for th for the mackerel, for the ma marlin and the shark fishing erm and basically you can actually watch you can, you can ac you've got a your T V screen so it, it's er, it's like a spectator sport as well cos you can actually watch the, the, the fish coming to take your bait. Yeah. You know, so it's like yo you've got on this minute camera on the line and everything, you know so it, so that you can actually get the excitement of watching it you know, coming and taking Can we have a little bit of a discount? Yeah you can. Course you can. How much is it then? Couple of quid each. Couple of quid each! Couple of quid each! So we can start Shark fishing's only That's all you have, that's only have to have a little bit. Yeah! Yeah! You've asked for a lot! Can we have a lot of a discount please ? Only gotta drink, drink, drink that's lots of drink a drink. A drink a drink ! Give us three quid for the pair of you. Right. You give him three quid and I'll give the rest in. Cheers. Yeah. So you buy first two beers then. Yeah. Fair enough. No! Well isn't it? Well I did The guy was talking to Pete, he thought he could, he develop, he could develop for coarse fishing Bye bye. er, you know river fishing and that as well, there's spa special camera. Well where does the actual camera hang off? It's hung, it it's hung,i i it's actually not below the boat but, but it Oh! Sure can. get it, you see, but i it's fantastic watching cos you know they were they, they it was sort of going along the Yeah. whatever they were using as bait presumably some mackerel or something like that but, but as I was saying you could see it trailing through and then all, suddenly out of like nowhere this fish would come and like chase after it Yeah. and snap and this, this would go off and you'd be sat there going right then, you actually Well presumably see it take it, you know the camera eye would be adjustable would it? Or I presume so, yes. I mean they was talking about getting a really small for erm Oh right. you know, to be, to be used in in sort of coarse fishing and that. Mm. But, of course, the other thing of course ,i it takes out the, the one that got away cos you actually see the one that got away Yeah. you know ? Yeah. There'd be some story then. You know what'll happen is your camera would the cameras'll magnify it anyway won't it? Yeah it will. It will do. Yeah. Yeah. But it was really, I mean it, it meant of course that the other people on the boat could have some enjoyment as well, cos I mean, there's nothing worse i if you if there's only one rod out, or two rods out th those boats there's only like a couple of rods out int there on, on Mm. those for the marlin and the and the sharks and that, fishing? And you don't get many. Yeah. And it's not like, sort of Three there'll be twelve three or four maximum twelve rods out, yeah. something like that. Yeah. So any anybody else that's going on board is bored out their brains basically! But at least Yeah. if you got T V monitors you can watch what's going Watch it. on. That's really good. So now, now I mean now with all the radar and whatever else we're using, I mean you should really be able to find fish. Well that, that boat from Evesham that we went out on a couple a years ago it had a fish finder on it. Mm. So it er,fish finder on it. Yeah. You throw your line out, you don't get a few just biting. No. No, that's right. That's right. They've done most of them are I mean the wo certainly the ones on the little little boat trips and that, I mean, they have all it does is that it'll tell you there's some fish about, I mean, it doesn't Mm. tell you where to fish or Oh no. depths or anything like that does it? What they're doing is there's some fish down there somewhere. Mm. Cos that's the most frustrating thing about fishing is when you're like you know, you could be wasting that, you, you think to yourself like I could be wasting a whole, there's not a fish anywhere round here! You know, you could be sat here like an idiot today Well that's it I've I've sat on for hours on end . Jay hours on end in middle of night freezing Mm. you know like and I've caught nothing. And you've Yeah. thought well there's plenty of crabs in Yeah. summer, take your bait Yeah. but every time you throw out there's a crab on end of it. You know Yeah. Yeah. you think, why does that crab always have to come my line. And all this sea yet it has to get my worm. And same, like no fish, you think well there must be fish out there. Yeah. Well it's, it's luck innit? I don't know. I don't know what's going on. I don't we got about three, three thirty in the morning, both of them went out to er canal somewhere up Dulgate, past Dulgate we set up and we'd we'd been fishing for about two and half hours it's aba about six thirty in the morning this old farmer comes up says er aye, aye lads, he said er I wouldn't bother it, they drained this area of the canal a few months ago! And we said, oh ! Yeah. Sat there watching our floats for hours ! I mean Yeah. I mean luckily you, you know, you'd gone on a car, with a car so it's a matter of throwing everything in the back and just going That's it. somewhere else so could have sat there all bleeding day! And not have known anything about it. Aye. I've had some lonely nights. Yeah. Do you catch many eels, eels or anything, many eels? No. Didn't catch as many this year as what I have done. Phworgh! The slimy things that they are. Yeah. You get one of the lads that works with me, if he catches three of them he says well I'll have them for my dinner. Yeah. I know. I know. They look horrible! A delicacy. Mind you, I ate conga. I, I erm, I was off the west co er on a holiday to the west coast of Ireland and we erm we're driving down the west coast and there was like some rocks and everything about, so we stopped and, you know, I looked by a rock pools or something, and there's this and the rock pool is like mini-swimming baths, they were, you know, probably Mm. twelve foot long and about six or seven foot wide and about Mm mm. six or seven foot deep and they're crystal clear. And there was this old guy dragging this bloody rope with a massive hook on the end like after after, you know, I presume it was cod or mackerel something along the and I said, what the hell are you fishing? You know cos the woman I was with wanted to go for a swim and I said no you can't this guy , so I went up to him, I said what, what on earth are you fishing for? He said, oh there's three congas live in this pool. It was like a four foot one, a five foot one, there's a six foot one over in the centre, there's a rock in the centre of it Oh right. that came out the water said look over there. I said bloody hell! You know, and I said to her you were gonna go swimming in there ! He said ooh, he said there was some American students here last week and they were all swimming in there and the man came along with this thing and they bo they were all sat on the middle lo middle of there with their feet dangling in the water splashing away, he said I was dragging this down and this six footer came out,I said, and then they were he said, you've never seen anybody run so fast in your life like they go they were dangling their toes at the end of this thing . Yeah. Yeah. Oh aye. And then, the next day I went along and he actually caught the five foot one and ki and killed it and he gave us a load of steaks off it that I sort of Baked? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The trouble was they were really bony, that's the only thing it was and I don't like eating Well fish and bo with bones in I can't stand it. well you can't fillet them can you? No. No. Impossible. Impossible. No. Cos it's like a central spinal Yeah. and it's all off it so you'd be just you know, it's not like Normal flat a fish, a flat fish. I mean, but it was really nice it was it was a really chewy meat you know. But Yeah. like shark or something and er There's supposed to be decent congas off Beachy. Is there? You know the old Mm. oil . Yeah. It's me! Down there. Yeah. Oh! Plenty of rocks under there. Yeah. Yeah. People say they've had some big ones. Yeah. But, you know about the stories you hear. Yeah. I've never actually seen one. No. They're ugly looking fish aren't they? Bloody horrible fish! But er evil looking things. This guy was great though we met in Ireland cos he was erm he used to own about three or four supermarkets, er small chains and he just one day, he's about he's about fifty eight, sixty now and one day he said about five years ago he just got fed up and just walked out. All he does is fish all day long. And he Yeah. just, he lives in somebody's basement of a house, and like, in return for living there he fills the guy's freezer up with lobster, crab, you know Mm mm. fish and that and erm everything he does in the village i in Kilrush is everything, he just you know, he wants a new pair of shoes, wants a coat brings Yes. a couple of lobster, you know, and things like tha cos like to him he, he's got his crab lines and his lobster pots all the time and all that. Erm to, it's really back to the old barter system. Yeah. Yeah. It's superb! Really good. Eh! Excuse me. Oh, oh, oh, oh! Have you not seen Ken? No. Oh! go and get Ken then. Again? Yeah. You mean same as last week? Yeah, yes! Yes, yes, I was helping him. What? See, and I've helped Kenny out and a few the lads before and like we always finish it that's why I come this cellar Barry. Oh right. Oh! Do you want one? Yeah Just one, just one. go on, go on. Just tell, send Alan down again. Alan! Said it's alright . Have you ever tried octopus? Erm no. Er no I haven't. No. I mean, squid I've eaten a lot of. Bit like that innit? Squid. Yeah. I've had octopus soup. That was quite well a weird taste. I like shark. Have you eaten shark? No. Oh I like shark, it's really nice cos it it's really meaty, I mean, it's like eating meat. Like steak though innit? Yeah. Yeah, it's like steak. That's right. It's nice and ju tender I believe. Yeah. Yeah. But But it's sort of thick and chewy it's not, you know it's not flaky like fish, it's like a almost like a meat. It's really good. They do in erm where do they do it round here always? Erm always got it in erm tt oh! Mick at Joseph's place, Mick and Jose erm in Lancaster. Oh God! Above the Bang and Olufsen shop in Lancaster, d'ya know Robertson's of Leicester? Up King Street? Yeah. Next to Plato's. Yeah. The erm, electrical shop? Yeah. It's above there. Oh! So it's a it's a nice place cos it's like it they do a great spread of I mean you can go for like a nice meal there, but you can like also eat, you know dips and Yeah. hamburger Yeah. or whatever, a big steak or whatever you want and the And how do you cook it? They cook it i they cook it in er Cajun, in, it's a, sort of, in a sort of spice thing, they have sort of Mexican, not Mexican erm tt Cajun, South American, and Yeah. some states of America around the Mississippi New Orleans Aha. New Orleans . Er but I've had it just grilled, you know and always done in butter. In butter? Yeah. Yeah. But I like trying all these things now and again. Mhm. Mm. You ca I mean you occasionally see it in the fish markets. Yeah. And er I mean, things like squid and that I ca I quite like, but I'd never think of get buying it, I wouldn't buy it and cook it myself or anything. I just Oh no. the trouble is, once you actually Tried that so what sorry? I remember once, you know, getting and cutting a rabbit and things, by the time you'd actually cut the thi damn thing You've gone off it. you'd gone off it cos you'd been heading, and gutting it, and whatever else ! And you know, you're sat there and you think Yeah. I don't really wanna eat this, you know ! It's alright if it comes to you in a ca in a, in a, as a, as a meal Comes up ready-made. Yeah. But er, when you actually see what you're doing to it, you know. I had this octopus once in Germany and it, we'd gone out for a meal and I was gonna have steak and mushrooms and Mm. er, the lads said what are we having the starters like? I said, oh I'll have what you're ordering. Well they ordered soup of the day you see and they brought this, I tasted it had a real funny, a weird taste Mm. anyway, and I sort of said to the waitress, why what was it? She said octopus. Urgh! You wouldn't have had it if you'd have known? No. I don't think I would. No. It's not something No. I would have picked. No. I wouldn't. I certainly Well wouldn't. it was it were I mean I like fish but I wouldn't, I wouldn't choose it. Had a funny taste but it was quite nice. Yeah. What was it, a sort of fishy ta I mean was it a sort of fishy soup? No. No? It didn't have a fishy taste, it we like beef but I presume it's the way they've cooked it. Mm. Cos they all put spices in and everything. But er I definitely wouldn't have ordered it. No. No. Like now, I don't think I would order it again. Yeah. But then I had steak and mushrooms to follow. Quite nice. So if you don't eat what you catch why choose Why do I wanna sea fishing? No, I mean I, cos I, you know I,i I spend a long time coarse fishing so I understand actual fishing for pleasure as opposed to Yeah, yeah. like to eat, you know, there's not much you can catch coarse fishing that you can eat anyway erm but most people who go sea fishing do it to eat what they catch. Or to sell what they catch or whatever, I mean Aha. Mm. I, I do it I like, I like But why sea fi why, why does sea fishing interest you and not coarse fishing sort of thing? Because you there's more opportunity for big ones Mm. if anything. Mm. Like, you go canal fishing, you know, you're only getting Yeah, that's right. like you get the odd four and half pound Yeah. pike or chub Yeah. whatever Yeah. but you know, you, you come to the fairly big'uns out there. So Mm. so I suppose that's why I do it. Mm. Yeah. To see if I can get a big one. Mm. Can you get You going home? away now? No. Nothing like trying to get rid of me is there! Are you going home? I'm no bother! Is there more in this week than last week? Yeah. I've never seen as many bodies! Yeah. And I think my God ! Their brain must be scrambled as my daughter would say ! Yeah. That's true. Are they, still coming in then now? No, there hasn't There hasn't been many now. What You staying? time is it now? Twenty to one nearly. Oh is it? Oh! There won't be any See next Friday, we're coming next Friday for . Ooh! My little ratbag is. She said I would No you'll enjoy that. I'm gonna try and leave her here! Let somebody else do her work. We're trying to get rid of you Actually Anna! it's good, I mean it's good because of the amount of lighting and effects that they bring, I mean it's interesting like, you know. We come for But yo you come for an hour or so and then,tha that'll be enough That's enough. you know, if you don't li if you're not into the music or into dancing then Well, she is. We're No. not, we're all fogeys No. you see. That's right. But she wouldn't like tonight because No. she's not into, what I call is it heavy metal? Or summat like Yeah. that, heavy rock Yeah. or something? Heavy rock. Well, erm, she's not into that but Yeah. I said we'd bring her. She'll like it I think, she can dance. Mind you, all these youngsters can't but you can't see, you know normally when I stand at bar I can normally see the door but I can't see it. I know the feeling. Ooh! Feeling. Do you normally have ? Summat like that. There'll be just over two hundred in. Cor! That's a lot then innit? Did you get that change? Well, I give it to what do they call him? Hughey is it? Hughey. Yeah. I gave it him. I must when I came a bit short again, I said Yeah. Well we changed fifteen quid last week didn't we? Yeah, but I've been taking out, cos we had a rogue living above us you see, and I thought well he's one of these that'll take owt if he can get it you see. Mm. So I thought I don't have a lot of money in flat, not that I have a lot, but we like it out of way don't we? The whisky bottle, we'll fill it up now won't we? You never know, might get desperate again. True. Mind you But you were busy last night, is that what it was, did that knock you out? Yeah. Yeah. Didn't you expect Yeah. so many? Er, no, no, we were, I mean last night we'd gone up from the week before on a rave, we'd had about si ninety in, and last night we had about two hundred and fifty. So Is the, is the Fridays normally better than Saturdays er, money-wise, the takings? I mean, is it more Well it's i people in? er, er er er, er it, it hasn't been, I mean,i it, it was, last night was the first one that had gone on to like over two hundred. So this week you've done well Friday and Saturday Yeah. cos you've got more in. That's right. It's not bad though is it? No. No. But I mean it's, now it's coming to the end of January people are starting to get paid again and starting to have paid off their Christmas. I mean that's been the killer. You know, you've had Christmas, then you get hit with all your credit cards and all, then you get hit with all the electricity, and gas, and telephone. Electricity, gas and telephone and everything. Can you explain why it's dearer on Fridays and Saturdays? Cos it's different type of event and music. You don't think if you if you put it up to same they wouldn't come likely? No. No. So it's No. No. you don't complain at this, you don't complain at two fifty er, each one, no? No. Well some of them do. Well some of them do, but not, not serious, not serious No I meant you don't, you're not bothered, you don't mind? It's No, I mean you make twice as much on a Friday on the door as you do on the Saturday. No we don't No we don't cos we don't, we don't promote it you see on a Friday. Oh! So they They don't promote cos they they pay for the hire of the hall. They pay for the hire, yeah. But you've gotta say, oh right. So whatever they make on the door Yeah. after they've paid Yeah. for the hire is profit. But they spen they spend a lot of money on, on lights and they, I mean they they spend they spend about seven hours in here on a Friday just doing the lights and special effects and I like that smoke one. I saw it first time last week and it were great! Yeah. Really Well the, the first time they were here when they gonna have the all ni when they were gonna have the all-nighter erm, they hired a laser in it was superb! But I mean that's that'll cost them five hundred quid alone just for Are the all-nighters popular with you, in here? Well we Well you've had we ha a couple haven't you? No we haven't. The None at all? the the police and the local authorities stop them. I mean, I have had all-nighters in the past Yeah. but that was for like the school trips so Well why have they stopped it now? you know There's nothing wrong with them. What's to do with them? Well it was in paper weren't it? Well Yeah, but used to get away with it. I know. Yeah, but th th I know. they're putting it down in the paper that Mad, drugs. people'll take drugs and stuff like that , well, if they're gonna take drugs , then they'll take it anyway. Well I've been here every week and there's no bother with them or No. No, no. Anyway Oh well you can't beat the system can you? You can't. And you can't beat the police cos sooner or later they will fight flipping hell to get you Well th they're just funny that's all. Right. Well Right, what? That, I ordered that one. Mm. That one? Well, but it's only er er record book. You were saying How did the bar go? Don't know. Just trying to Have you got any? Don't be sil don't be silly! The ultimate collection of your favourite . You have to make one order. You could can't be far off nine hundred then? Six? I've never seen a Saturday go so fast. Yeah it well I, come on! Anything goes fast after Friday. Yeah. It's not so much that it Seven fifty. Two two pound fifty . Just over. Mind you, I thought oh yeah. Two hundred people. I So two hundred paid tonight? No. About hundred and eighty paid. Feels like a hundred and fifty and get out of it. Yeah. Twenty fi I mean last week there was a hundred sixty in and that was actually up on the previous couple of weeks, just Mm. in er Oh yeah. Wasn't it? Yeah. Well I mean, January It is getting quite people are getting paid again. getting paid again. People have got some money again. I dunno, I, I, I think the Friday nights, mostly on the Friday nights . Yeah, might well do. Might well do. Please can I have my twenty five I'm owed for like two weeks? Oh right. Two weeks. Well I don't, mine's gotta go in the cleaners Yeah, well Oh I need some I have to clean them up, I'll have to Yeah I know. take it to the cleaners I know, I might get some so it's not the fucking cleaner. I'm gonna get some cleaning, I'll get some cleaning fluid this week. You know which one it, it is, it sort of activated one. Erm You're gonna kill somebody one day you know using that! Bloody . I give them a, I did give them a good rinse afterwards though. It's gonna have to It was it's gonna have to be erm erm dub dub wurgh wurgh erm tt I can get a delivery on Thursday, I need, we need a delivery on Thursday anyway It, yes. when we're open so I'll get a delivery on Thursday and I'll get some er Well I'll do the delivery if you want cleaner I'll do the delivery when I've bit of cleaner. Okay. Yeah, so that's an, an idea for Glasses. Yeah, we run out of pints again tonight. Well we didn't run out, we run out of but there was quite a few outside in the I should hope so! I know, but I'm loathed to give them out. No. Unless I know who's getting them. Mm. Seventy five where are on now? Ten And black Ashley came in. Yeah. I thought Laura was coming behind the bar to fucking us support. I know what Laura was What? drinking. She walked behind the bar, got herself a drink and went and fucking sat and watched us! Mm! Oh! Oh! The little pratt Obnoxious dickhead! Yeah. yeah but he said Oh yeah, he was legless all night weren't he? I got him every time, until the end and I said I am not serving him this time! Hughey, you serve him! Well that's right. Cos he was absolutely incapable of talking Yes. let alone giving any money. And I said it's alright we're still in Have you ever seen him judge from their looks you know what they're drinking and you just like go vaguely waving his empty glass Well you should take his glass and you fill it and take the money out their hand don't you? Yeah. D'ya think so? Yep. Yeah the,ye oh yeah, honestly yeah. I wo I would have done tonight those but Oh yeah talking to Alan . Interrupted by customers. Mm. No I was er talking to, is it Alan? Security guard. Aren't you the lucky one! Well he's better than Stuart! Just! I'm saying nothing! Well, yeah, but I mean the stories they tell about fishing so they're different stories Oh yeah. and we caught a Yeah. whereas er He doesn't lie to his wife any more. I have been, I have been in my time! Coarse fishing though, he was sea fishing, sea fishing. When are you gonna give up smoking and save some I know. money? You could pay your mortgage on what you smoked! I don't give a fuck! It's a foolish fucking ! I can't with my habits any more. Gambling and drinking. Did you win any money today? Only a bit. Have you got my keys? Just a wee bit . No! I put them Ah. on the table. Sorry! I've got my keys. Can we not finish our drinks Barry? You did it like I did it didn't you? Course you can finish your drinks! Get your coat and we'll rattle it, ah, your keys are there. Maybe I've got a collection of these half pints at home! I know that. Well, bring them back! That's where all these long thin ones have gone. No, no, I use it's usually fucked. Why don't you just take a case of it, one of those cases home, one of the empty empty cases? And bring back the glasses. And bring all the glasses back. I'll tell you what they're . What are? They do take the bottoms off them. They don't give a fuck Oh I know! They do take the bottoms of them Barry. Oh! Well I told you Well you see, you actually see tho them little punks collecting them up at the end of the night don't you? Putting them under their coats like. How, how many what did you carry out yourself? Tonight? Yeah. Five bottoms. Well that's Well that half a case. And I sold four of those as well like. Yeah. They carry out. And I sold three three double gin three , you know. Yeah but yo you always sell a few to take out don't Well that's why they brought it. Most probably take out and sell them what's Yeah. left at the end of the night. I mean, not all our customers abs are absolutely stupid. Buy a bottle at five to two and leave it at two o'clock. It's the nice ones that leave their drink there. Mm! I'm amazed they haven't Well anyway I was talking to er Rosette tonight cos I went to the office for some change and I, then I had this like. She said, I hear the Empire, or, or hear The Garden's doing well on a Friday night. Must have heard about that from Alan. He goes it's too fucking dead ! Well it's it, last day of week Where? Popping up to Christies and just after you go up the top. No, no, no, where? Where are you talking about? The Empire? But apparently they're doing quite well on a Wednesday with the students. Students, yeah I know. And erm Mark was in last week he said They're getting six hundred like. well, Mark said it was, Mark er guessed about four hundred. He's, he, he went in last week, he went in this week and er Well Paul, Paul said to me six hundred , about seven hundred Yeah. normally he said, he said well there would be about six hundred. Ni Nigel mentioned, he told me it was erm er like four, five hundred in tt to Not bad though is it? Well it's very good innit? I mean, on a Wednesday. And it's only a quid to get in and it's a pound, pound a pint. Two quid and, and a drink, yeah. But on the other hand they're making a little bit at a pound a pint. Well they're making five or six hundred, they're bound to be getting on with it. That's right. That's getting in the I don't think they've got a lot of staff on. I wouldn't have thought they'd bother with a No. student night, having a lot of staff on, it's pointless having ah, I mean, the bouncers in that situation. Well you'd only need one. But we don't need a bouncer on Except, mind you, the, the rough, the erm rugby club gave the band a bit of er, a rough seeing to. What band? He had some band that were awful apparently and the whole of the rugby team were lying in front of stage with their They, they've never left, they were playing the rugby club? fingers up. No, no, no, no, no. No! University University rugby club. Oh! The Uni's? Yeah. Mhm. Yeah. The band went ran off in tears apparently. Couldn't cope. Seeing the University Rugby Club I would, I would have eh! Mm. Must be some narky bastards in the rugby club! Oh! I can't get it out it's stuck on his collar I hope she comes back for it next week. But six hundred on a Wednesday night that's pretty good. Mm. Does the Sugar House get that many people in? No. No. The Sugar House only opens er Thursday, Friday, Saturday. Or, or,o we always have done. I mean, we we opened originally, first year, every night of the bloody week and it was pointless, absolutely pointless. Is that bigger than the Empire? I've never been in it? Yeah. No! Er yeah. Yes it is. Is it? It's legal, it's legal Well it's on, it's on a Thursday, yeah. it's it's legally bigger than the Empire but the Empire can get more people in cos he's got upstairs and Yeah. that Mm. see. But, of course, erm for licensing they don't take that particularly into consideration up there. Well they half upstairs straight away. Yeah. Yeah. So er I mean, I think, I, I think the Empire legally is well I thought it was nine hundred Seven fifty I think. I can't think er I don't know. I think it's nine hundred. I mean you could cer you could Well I thought it was seven fifty. certainly get seventeen, eighteen hundred in there. Well yeah. Even that Bob Monkhouse opened up quite Yeah. quite nice. Yeah. Well, they'll have the Garden won't they? Oh yeah. Mind you Probably, fucking tell by, cos there was I thought They we there was too many. Yeah. But I mean they were banging they were banging fifteen hundred in for that disco for the first Mm. few months weren't they? No, twelve, twelve or thirteen. They never had fifteen. Didn't they? I mean the Sugar House, his capacity's just been upped to eleven hundred I think. Erm I mean, it was always nine hundred, but it's been upped to eleven hundred last year I think. Well we used to put, I mean, I put twelve, thirteen hundred in the Sugar House. But tha but you it's full at that, you know. Mm. Whereas the, the, the, you, you could you could, you could fit sixteen, seventeen hundred. No, I reckon,th th there was,th th they reckon between a, a thousand and e eleven hundred for a night, you know. But you couldn't fucking move at that. Yeah, but it was a, it was also a ver it was a bit of a celebrity, I mean it was people, people were crushed around, bloody hell I mean Yeah, that's right. , yeah. all the downstairs, I mean all the plebs were upstairs all the downstairs was erm Yeah but,ma maybe, maybe a hundred people . Mm. I'm sure. I mean, I don't know I, you see I left I had to come here so I left before Bob Monkhouse and everything, I just, I, all I did was go for couple of free drinks and plate of free food, which, I don't think I got. And left. You get a few fucking with the chef. You know deep sea diving at Yes you would. You, you betrayed us then, you'd left hadn't you? You'd left me! I had to leave. You'd fled us! And gone to work for the opposition. Were you op well I didn't reckon you were opposition. But I did go out or something. Just cos you thought you were go It's funny though just cos you, you were coming out with about two hundred and fifty quid a week for working seven nights a week! No, I, originally, they they were open seven nights a week. I know. No. Was it four times a week? And you were secured weren't you secured there? Mm. Oh! Seven nights a week, two hundred and fifty in my pocket guaranteed. Going to bed with Jean fucking, fucking shite! Kelly's ! Christ! Some of the schemes they come up with. Get your blood going. I mean, I'll, I'll, I'll be interesting to see how they they start next week with a a load of er bands on Thursday nights. Mm. I mean, they're all chartsey stuff but Mm. you know, I, I da that kind of stuff doesn't draw punters generally, chart stuff cos the people who go I dunno, I think the young the people who are interested I think the young people go to it like. Well me yeah, maybe. Maybe some of that will. Yeah. But generally pop, poppy type A lot, a lot of Top of the Pops stuff doesn't, in the sense that people who like to go and see live music don't people who like that kind of music prefer the dis prefer it in a Yeah. disco context. Yeah. Yeah. Not, not, seeing sort of a live concert. Anyway In fact, in fact most of the stuff they don't like anyway. Mm. True. Well they're not lo all those appearances are P A, it's all gonna be mimed and backing tapes. Erm that blooming Labour Party cancelling that conference on March twenty second and which has Oh yeah. messed me up! Cos I was Mary wanted to go and see Si Simply Red at G MEX, and last weekend we co or weekend before last when they were on, their big, er we couldn't because I had the kids Friday night and the two of them Saturday night and it, that was the two nights. Were you gonna go with her? Yeah. So, so so I said well we'll go to the N E C or Sheffi she said oh I'm not traipsing all that way, you know, just for the concert. So and she was, she was moaning away like sort of oh we alright! I'll take you over to Paris and we'll watch them in Paris on the twenty so she said, oh when? So I said, twentieth of March. She said oh! Tt. Oh! Ah! The Labour Party Conference is on so I can't go. So I said oh dear me! Yeah. And then she came in, oh, Labour Party Conference is cancelled! Oh bugger! Mm. You see Jean on the telly with Neil Kinnock? No. No, I've been told about it. When? Ee, er, Friday. It's on all the national news. It wasn't, it wasn't on the regional news it was peculiar! Well we did It was on the six o'clock nat well it was on all day, one o'clock, two o'clock, three o'clock Yeah the four o'clock, six o'clock normal news. nine o'clock yeah. It wasn't on the regional news. Where were they? Salford Keys. He was up seeing all the north west candidates parliamentary candidates. Jean was in that horrible sa mustard and black striped contraption! Stuck out like a sore So that everybody noticed! Yeah. Her dressing up outfit. Hear Labour are one point five I heard it yesterday Yeah. All the sh I thought she was going to be meeting him next weekend then? All the dirty tricks start now though. At the regional conference at Blackpool. Erm I don't, I don't, I don't whether he's going to that. Forgotten what it's called. Yeah, it's si I know it's north Yeah. west, er no,la regional councils re Labour council, the urban councils or something like that. Something like that, yeah. No,na well I don't know, he might be. I don't know whether he's going to that, he might be but this was, this, he was up sort of seeing, meeting all the Labour Party candidates for the north west. Well if I had a million invested, have it all invested . Yep! Yep! I agree. Seriously, I'd fucking have it out of there, everything I own. But he ta all the dirty tricks are starting now. Kinnock's a funny he really is. He's er the Sunday Times tomorrow Er, I remember you said about full Sunday Times tomorrow, Major expose on the lader le the lea the Labour leaderships ties with a Moscow Moscow company. Did you see it? Yeah. Oh you mean, they're still getting Moscow's Yeah. It's like, what's it they've got? I think it's about time I got my share of the Well who's doing it, tomorrow, what they call it? Report he's doing tomorrow? Oh Er Sunday Times. Personal view of the files on . Typically . Dennis Healey, fuck! He's gonna out with some stick! Kinnock was saying to erm the candidates, you know, we re I realize that a lot of you are getting it rough at the moment, cos there's about five Labour Yeah. candidates all been arrested in the north Yeah. west mysteriously. But er Jean not a . Yeah. Derek, there's somebody Derek Derby Derby, that's right. Blackpool's under investigation. Anyway, so erm he said, but you know he was saying to them that er, it's not just at the bottom end, he said, in our village in Wales we've got the Sun have now positioned two reporters who have lived in the village the these the they sit in a car outside his house day and night photographing who comes in. They've been to his little boy's primary school, interviewed the teachers and headmistress and all the school friends and everything just trying to get a dirty story. How did you er how did you know about the football? What football? The Morecambe match. What d'ya mean? How did you know about it? Cos I saw it when we went past. When is it on, tomorrow? Yeah. I think so. Oh. Did you see the time by any chance? Either seven thirty or eight. Be seven thirty I would imagine. Plenty of time. Or seven o'clock maybe. It's unusual, some time if, from seven to eight. Mm. That's in the F A trophy. Yep! D'ya wanna go to it then? Well okay. Is it the Vauxhall trophy or the F A trophy? F A trophy. Mm. That's the ta two cups they can win now. Isn't it Barry? Who, Morecambe? Yeah. League and Oh. Still in the league, they're still in their league cup are they? No, I don't, no, the league, actual league. H F S league. Well that's not a cup. Yeah, but you get a cup when you win it. No you don't. Do you not? No. Oh! I don't know. You don't get a cup if you win the league in first division do you? Yes! No you don't. You do! You don't! Barry, you do! You don't, you get a shield. Shield? Yeah. Oh! There's only one shield, and that's the charity shield. You can't call it the league cup can you? Cos there's already a league cup int there? Completely different. Barry can you what are the H F S league cup did you call it? What does H F S stand for anyhow? Er I don't know. I presume it's some sponsor or other. Don't know who it is. It's not very good publicity is it? If nobody knows who it is. Well do you know what it is? No. I just said I don't know. Said it's not very good publicity if nobody knows what it is is it? That's at Wembley. Yeah. Gary Wilkinson's pretty good isn't he? Yeah. Well he did he did well in the last er Yeah, got to the semi-finals. British Open, or whatever it was. Well tha the last one he's got to the semi-finals and he got beat by Steve Davis. Pardon? It's a test match in two minutes. What of?? Mm. Well I'll go across quickly now then. Okay. I'll see you in a minute. Okay. Oh! Well in a minute anyhow. You've been a long time! I know. Why? I don't know. It Oh. They're showing all them, mm, all the er wickets and all the runs from the first day onwards. That was on the first day. No, this is the third day. Oh! And me we've missed the first two innings. Pardon? We've missed the first two innings. Are you playing on Saturday? Dunno. Ah! No I'm not,. They've taken that . See Van Basten got another hat trick. Well on A C Milan Did you see it this morning? Did you see all the goals this morning? Well what on? Channel Four. They o show all the Italian goals on Channel Four. What on? What time? Channel Four News. Half past eight. Mm. I'm . Mm. Show all the goals from Europe, and Spain, and Germany, and Italy. Every day? No. Just, well I dunno, cos they're not on every day are they? They don't play every day of the week do they? A bit too tired don't you think? Most teams do in F A. It was er, first division. Who? Well, second division teams. No they don't. They've planted a new tree there haven't they? Where? There. Where? The one right in front, at the very Well that's been there ever since we moved in! No, not that bush. I mean that No, the tree. Yeah. Has it? Yeah. Well I can't remember that now. Unless it was small and it's grown ! So when you don't know when you go back in then? The time the trains are? Nope! Could do that They're getting some more tomorrow aren't they? I don't know yet. Cos in you don't know if it'll be moved by then. Cos she said they're moving it aren't they? From his bedroom. Yes. That'll take about ten minutes . Oh it would. If more comes in. Do you want me to get that? No, I'll get it. What, what he's, what he's had to say is, is, is to, is to get the ball rolling and get some money, and then we can start looking. He'll give us that Mm. without any security. Mm. Can have that for starters. At a write off of thirty pound a barrel. Oh! He's going to write off one as well? This is what he's saying, yeah. S so you don't get involved or anything, this is, we can just sign it off. All he wants off us, we're gonna give him analyses of your last three months' invoices. Right. Right? And then wants just some form of a business plan, which Mm. is probably similar to what your Yeah. Yeah. What you did that, on that other thing. And then, and he'll come and see us, sort it all out, sort the installation out and erm and, and we've got fifteen left. Then we then he says, then wha well cos what we're saying is, then if your barrelage goes up to four barrels, say Mm. go back and get another ten to fifteen Another write off. Mm. er another write off. He says, so you you you you you're not, you're not stinging yourself up to something er Mm. and you take as you improve the business. It's whether, you know, what we've got to look at really is what, what, basis we can use that fifteen thou for. Mm. That's right. As a starter. That's right. You know. The biggest thing is a case of refurbishment to, is that, that's what we want. That cocktail bar looks alright in the corner over there. Mm. Then you could sort of do something with the Yeah. Yeah. Bas let's wander round and have a look. I mean Mm. Er do you want, there's another the idea of what that ? What do you think on that Barry, on that score? Yeah. If we can get fifteen quickly. Yeah. Cos we've missed the March he said, because th it's the new financial year so Aha. Aha. you know, so if we can ge if we can get fifteen in quickly we can start saying well look, while Mm. we're gonna spend that fifteen Yeah. for That's right. And then get it going. Anyway, I said we'll have to . Yeah. I mean, basically, blokes have written everything off. Yeah. So, so I mean, they've just walked Yeah. away from the whole thing, so So with all the pumps, heads, All yo all cellar, everything! all we're gonna have to do is, put that in, well we might Yeah. we might, we might, what money we're saving we might be able to say well what about something Yeah. you know. Yeah. Yeah. We will turn round, but I say We, we own this, you know, d'ya wanna buy it, can, d'ya wanna buy the equipment? Mm. They might say well, put new in, you know, but gonna save them an arm and a leg and maybe we can ah, either negotiate something definite or Well it's not, it's, I mean it's not only the cost of the equipment, it's actually the cost of pu installing it. You know, you need That's right, yeah. to have a company in to install it. won't need to push Gonna be, it's gonna be I mean, it's a long run, it's, it's Yeah. gonna be a good two days Yeah. wanted to do that. Well they, they'll put a condition on as well. Have a word with Colin. Yeah. Right. Here we are. Here we are backstage. Erm that's just cupboard, staff toilets, and spirit stuff in there. Yeah. area Sa what's that for? Ice making machine. Oh yeah! That's what we want a Dishwasher. glass washer. Erm there's one freezer, that's a freezer. Er it's small but well it's a reasonable kitchen Yeah, it's quite a good one int it? really. Fridge. They do say that er, that the er it's cos you have to anything on there, food-wise. Yeah, you've got to have food anyway. So I mean, if they've had it. But Mm. I mean it's, it's er, it needs somebody working at it full time Yeah. erm and just being, being prepared to su suffer a few months of building Yeah. it up basically. Yeah. That's, that's the, that's where you've got er freezer freezer and a chest freezer there as well. That's a lift straight down to the cellar. Who put that in? Charlie . Tha I mean the whole building's brand new, he, well Yeah. I mean it's, what? Er eight years Yeah. old or whatever. Er, we've got all packed in for I mean that might be worth putting back on. No. Doubt When it if it's when it got to the stage that we only open like, one and a half days a week Yeah. we said, well it's not really worth, from your company's point of view, such an expensive piece of equipment for a I mean,was doing the process thing then, you know, we could utilize the equipment elsewhere. But, er, if you're not really gonna be still like split cups but well Yeah. it's, it's useful for the gas sort of thing Oh yeah. Whatever, whatever I mean we'll Yeah. be expecting that. Yeah. Well yo do your So do, do you know? Oh yeah! Yeah, I know that. Well when everything's sorted, that's it. So you got, there's a lot of wasted space in this club. Mm! Phenomenal amount of wasted space. Yeah. I used to think what . Where does this lead to? This is the back of the, the disco. Yeah. Right, there was a disco console on the back. Mm. Right. Aye. And I got, I've got about two hundred of these poly-foam chairs as well back Yeah. there, which I got off one of my Here's the piano. That's the piano. And these are . Yeah . I mean we have on a couple of occasions always done like fortieths and that, on a couple of them. We actually set up buffet in there Mm. which worked reasonably well. Mm. I think one did it, you know what I mean Yeah. tart it up and whatever. Mm. Erm, and what else worked well erm for a while, we were doing the women's darts. And we had about three boards in here and we had a board in there. I mean, there must be about seven boards in all. Right. Was that a competition was it? No, it was a weekly thing. Because, what they were doing, they were going to individual pubs Oh yeah. Which couldn't cope Yeah. with it, and th wha on their knock-outs and their cups and everything they Yeah. wanted them all in one place. So Aha but erm there was a bit of jealousy in the la licensees started getting a bit er er Mm. because we're taking the trade away from them, you know they would have obviously had They were all the other pubs and the darts ? Yeah. They'd have had a lot . A bit of competition from other place. Well, at that stage we were talking to the men's darts secretary came along and was saying, he'd be quite interested in, in knocking up, you know, one of the Lancashire matches or something Oh! like that. It's a Well it's the stage for it int it? Th thing is, you can put it on there, put it on sta you can er film it, and bang it on the big screen over there. Mhm. which is what I, I, in the I had Eric Bristow and Maureen one night, and, I mean, it was just little dart board in the corner, but what I did was, I had a big screen like that and I just got student television service just to film it live and just throw it straight back up onto the big Yeah. onto the thing, so you know, it was like well it's better than being at the telly. I mean, it's better Mm. than Watching that. because th on the telly they haven't got those. I mean, I'm Mm. amazed at the, on the world championships, they've only got those lighting up boards That's right. haven't they? That's right, yeah. You know, and, I, instead of having I mean Screen up. why they don't just put a screen up Yeah. that beats me, you know. They do other sport etcetera. See what I mean? Mm. Yeah. Well that's part of the course because, we need to sort, with Johnny's entertainment out with a roof. Yeah. Alright. They've got two or three little leaks. What it is is, the ventilation on the roof, ventilation shafts when the wind's driven it drives under and leaks through. And we get it in two or three places, the toilets are, are the key one. And you don't see with that. Roof tiles are a fu bloody cost a fortune! Yeah, so damn! I didn't bring the I'll, I'll go and I'll go and get the key for that. No, I'll let you see it, may as well while you're here. You can see floor What's the floor, underneath the floor? Concrete. I think, what, what you mean What is the actual car it's just carpet. You see it was out in the, probably is still out in the hall that one. Yeah. I mean,closed now, it Mm. was open when Colin was there that time of the day. Yeah. You know, you'd have ten, they say Yeah. ten, if there was only ten people in, they'd all be drinking six or seven Yeah. pints. You haven't got a cold shelf in here. But I mean, that wouldn't be No. that's not that difficult to put in here. We'll get them Yeah. Exactly. I think we'll be able to get them to put them in for us. No. Yeah. Oh we've gotta pay that one haven't we? To pay that one? I think so, yeah. We've got two coming for ourselves, but Yeah. Yeah. we'll be able to get them off Gary I think, yeah. And we'll be able to say look, we want, we want how man how many have you got behind there? Have you got cold shelves behind there? We've got, one, two, three, four behind there. Right. So we could get a couple for here Yeah. couldn't we? Yeah. And you're painting over that. I've gotta come and paint I mean, really, if, if you look fifteen thousand, if you could spend fifteen thousand doing all this up Ah yeah. and you could write off barrels, you could still improve your barrel er, your barrels a week int it? Oh yeah! Yeah. You need, er you need to Definitely. Yeah. Oh yeah. And you don't need say, you don't need, you only need like one private function a week. And promotions, you know, Malibu promotion night where the Do promotions, that's right. Yeah. And yo and your er see what I mean about this area up here, I mean it's not a bad thingy. No. No I mean, I don't think Just time to sit and have a drink and all that. Well I mean, if you wanted you can use the big screen. You see cos, we put it that position cos er, the only dead part of the club is just literally Yeah. in the corner. O the other way you can see the screen from everywhere. Erm I mean, how much do you reckon it'll cost? If we said ou the carpet, we said well a certain area of the carpet wants Yeah. Erm I mean, it's quite a big floor area when you look at it. How much did you say Yeah, probably. in all your nightclubs and, what did you say they do a ? We'll nothing, we'll, won't be able to paint the floor and put the carpets down on I mean I that floor. I would have thought to be honest, I would have thought you don't need any of that area No. carpeted. Just to, probably, very ends of Don't you, you want your raised area, this You want your two raised areas carpeted. Er, by, by the bar would you say it no not right in front you know, have that Yeah. running to about three foot back. Yeah. Yeah that Well but you don't really want it up to the bar if you're going to get No I'm saying that you go right up to the bar Yeah. you want it up to See if you put artists on and you have this area as some kind of without carpet on Mm. in some ways, you haven't put, you can actually be, you know, dancing on this area. I mean,tha that's the problem we got at the moment. Yeah. On Mary's do, what we did, I put soul machine over here where the screen was Yeah. so people could dance on the er on the actual dance floor if they wanted. Erm I mean, it's not ideal but it really, it worked. It wor even, providing you haven't got a lot of if you've only got about a hundred people it's not too bad that cos it, it also creates a bit more atmosphere. But, it's a better i it's not a bad designed place in a sense that, that I mean, it's a reasonable size room Mm. and you ca and three hundred people er, you can take three hundred quite Yeah. easily I mean, you know, we've had four, fives hundred in. Mm. You can take three hundred quite easily. But the erm the other thing about it is if you have a hundred people in it can be so also be a good atmosphere, you know? Mm. Yet,i it's not one of those rooms where, if No. you only get a hu yo you're struggling if you've only a got a hundred. Yeah. Erm, what I'm, I've just arranged somebody to redo our speaker syste our original system with tannoys, we blew our tannoys speakers, and I didn't bother getting them replaced because we were going for a rock crowd so we just used Bernie and Nigel Mm. P A there. Yeah. What I've got, is I've got four of these directional speakers, there's two up and two on here and then two big bass ones which sit on a floor back there. And, so it's very loud on the dance floor but you can actually talk out, out here. Mm. Which I thought we need to redo if we're gonna get private bookings. Yeah. Cos the one thing you always get when you've got a mixture of people, I mean, all thi this needs recovering basically as well. Yeah. But I mean, that's not a big job it's just No. re relinoing it basically. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Filling the smoke Smoke machine up. Yeah, you got a smoke machine we, we, we would set in little, in a hole in the back. And all of these air conditioning valves are on? Yeah. Mm. Actually I'm having the,a th I mean I can get, I'm getting our system back in operation. It, it was gonna cost me a thousand but I've done a deal with a guy who'd got stuck with some in Manchester so it's gonna cost me five hundred which I'm getting done this Friday. Erm to put a satellite system, to put a satellite in would be three hundred quid in total. Yeah. So I mean it's that's only one that's only one good'un, good night using it innit, a year? Pays for that. Yo you're light, the er ceiling could you not get away with covering the, get the lights a colour blue? And er and you know, tidying up ceiling obviously Right. I mean, there's lots of bits and pieces you need for a I mean, if you just cover all the areas that were really Yeah. bad, er I reckon, I says, well what do you think yourself in, in, in Well the, the big the single biggest cost is, is what we do with this a carpet area. Mm. That's our single biggest cost, cos as I say, I had three quotes in total, and they were all sort of between thirteen and twenty three. Yeah. Thousand. Yeah. But that's, having said that, that's to carpet all this area Yeah. that back area I've just taken you through, that, the staircase, and the corridors out there. I mean, that's the carpet ev I just said like I wanted a quote to carpet Mm. everywhere. Erm what we were doing is,i what it was for, was for, for prospective buyers, they wanted erm a justification for Yeah. Yeah. the money they were gonna spend. I mean, they wouldn't have spent that money. But, they wanted written quotes for a justification more or less. Do you think it's better being like this? Looking there, or is it better sort of, clearing your floor and get a wider dancing space and Well it's quite, it's a reasonable size I know it's a fair size, but It's a fair size dancing you know space actually, I mean, you get about a hundred people on here, it's, it's, it's alright. In fact the, in fact it's,i at times it's too big. That's, my one, I don't know how you'd ever get over it, but that's my one criticism of the thing is that sometimes when you walk in it's the first thing that hits you and unless people are dancing it creates a cold atmosphere. Yeah. Erm I mean, if you've got your group on there's nothing better than having your floor there and are dancing on the floor at, at, in front of the group kind of thing like Yeah, but I mean a a if you have any anything like a, a, a group takes all of this. Yeah. If you have a That's right. a main group up, you know Yeah. you're struggling to get But then if you did this floor space like Yeah. we said Oh yeah. Yeah. I mean, I, I actually don't think you need carpet on I mean I, I don't Oh no. think, I don't think you need any of this carpet, to be honest. black , would that look nice? Black carpet. I dunno. Ah, cos Peter was saying, I dunno, I dunno what the black . Don't have to be black , you just want, you want something that er I don't know really, you'd have to think about it wouldn't you? Mm. Yeah. Oh yeah. Could do with probably somebody who knows what they're doing on it. You want the carpet area full of seating Actually one thing Barry Yeah. don't you? That's right. Give it a bit of warmth when they're sitting right Yeah. down. the area. That's one thing Ben said though, which was quite useful, he said get some people down pick their brains. Mm. You know, let them come down and give a quote Mm. for whatever you're looking at Mm. and pick what they thought, was the best thing you could do, and then don't, don't tell you but get them made. Yeah. You know, and like That's right. I say it, these guys are working on this all the time. I mean, on a normal night it's, the raised areas fill up with people seated. Yeah. This area's er, everybody's stood around. Yeah. I mean,i i it's a while before these chairs are,the they're always the last ones these to sit Yeah. down cos you're in the middle of the thoroughfare. You know,i i you need to be full to fill up that area because well, you know yourself, people like to stand around the bar don't they? Mm. Oh! That's right, yeah. So, I mean, all you do is get, I mean this and this has been down well it's, obviously it's been down since it opened, now I can't remember when Brewer actually opened Mm. but it must be seven years ago. If we've been Nearly seven or eight year ago weren't Yeah. it? I mean we've been in three. Yeah, it'll be about eight, eight year ago. It was closed for a I wonder year. I wonder how ma had to to town, I come down from across the town. I don't know . It's getting the steam roller up that worries me. Well you the time after don't it? Mm. Well, I mean, I don't know how to find the other one out. You only have to paint the dance floor on then don't you? I wonder how much it would cost the town, like? I know it sounds silly, but I say, the silly things like that are the ones that sometimes are the Mm. ones that are took seriously. But like you say, the floor can stand it and there's nice little corner or whatever int there? I don't know. That was rather a cheekiest thing to do. Mm. I mean, a er a, you see ou a good, a good looking, hard wearing wo lino Yeah. might not Yeah. go amiss. Cos then you can just, just mop it down, brush it or whatever, you don't even Yeah. need to bother vacuuming, which takes time, is a pain in the neck and you can never get a vacuum that's any good anyway. And plugs. they might look er you know they look cheapy or No. sort of But you lino being No, they do, but you can get good ones now can't you? Ah yeah! I mean, you can get ones that look like I just wonder whether you can get ones that look like sort of parquet floors almost? I've seen these industrial companies and he said look, have you got any er of your older stuff What's that? Because Polly's got a it was at the front of the bar, it's quite a heavy duty thing int it that? Mm. It'll take fag burns and, you want something that's not gonna that's like, that's got li like that crystaley stuff Mm. innit? And, and it's non-slip Yeah, that's er, that's good. That's the stuff Mm. you It's a non-slip stuff. want, but I would have thought that'll be quite dear won't it? You know, that kind with all the grit Yeah I know. I like that. in it . I wonder if you went to the industrial companies, and said look, have you got a a, a, a big lot of something and Yeah, well that'll be alright. You know. Well do,ja er, I mean er is it Marnes do that floor covering? Yeah but that was for carpets, was it,i is, is, is that, do they do the floor coverings there? Yeah. Course it's still Or is it Storeys or Yeah. Yeah, they do the floor covering. Find out. Yes. I think we'll just work out I've never been to that have you? That, that'll be that and a, and a lick of paint Yeah. and then you're, you're half way there. Th Yeah. Oh yeah. Yo your main job is to see th I mean see the bar open and th yeah. I mean,th the, the other thing is we need, we need it we need it recovered in something that's but I mean that's not a massive job, and we, and we, and I want the toilet trough that sort of thing. Yeah, all that sort of thing. What's the ladies like? The ladies are alright. Yeah, they're alright. Don't need, I mean if we get somebody in to do that, we'd have somebody in do little bits of repairs here and there, but generally it's alright. I'll show you . See, there's a tremendous amount of wasted space there! Mm. And Jean's corridor. Jean's corridor. I resume, see if the places are . It, and we had ninety on it on Saturday. Bus dri bus driver nearly we nearly hit the the thing nearly keeled over cos he didn't realize how many he'd got upstairs and he went round the bend and it started to go. And then cos you're not supposed to stand up upstairs . See the crack int bog. Yeah. I think it's got a bit damaged on Saturday, then he put him back Supposed to lift base. But er generally needs Oh I know. Yeah. Aye. The trouble is, toilets are toilets and they don't and they Oh aye. get damaged, I mean, you just have to keep bloody working on them, I That's nice, in the toilet. Yeah, take them in. That's right mate. As I say, it needs cleaning up of graffiti and a little bit of adjustment and Yeah. This is the problem, er,le Yeah. leaking roof. Cos these bloody tiles are expensive! Yeah. They keep getting damaged and collapsing, and of course, it's part of the fire protection as well , so You've got to be er Yo they've got, you know,yo you're not supposed to have damaged ones and we, you know, for an inspection we have to get th we'd have to, oh Yeah. change all these. Well what about, what, what who's responsible? Is it, John is? John is. Yeah, but I mean you know, at the moment we've not been pushing anything till No. I mean, everything's sorted out, then I will. Yeah. I think what it probably needs, is just a guard round the top ventilation things Yeah. cos a they're open and the wind drives under it. Well it and shut up to there with and that you can Ah yeah. try them holes Yeah. in there Yeah. with special sealer. But I mean That's right. That's right. That's what I mean, and we'll be alright. See this is er that goes along here. . But what I wanna do is trough this and bury these pipes. Yeah. Cos er, you just get damage all the time in here. And I got Tony coming to do these now. Yeah. Put these under there. Somebody's pulled the sink off. Mind you if you do that your only problem then is your roof int you? Yeah. You just Yeah. You just put a lick of paint again,wo your tiling's awful int it? Yeah. But I mean Yeah. It's all there. Well if you in you can see the diff I mean, you've got what seven urinals there? But if you troughed all in an L Yeah. I mean you'd take could take twenty guys stood there. I mean,damage is being done, say you have got seven guys there stood, what's Mm. the other one doing, I think can, can pull Yeah. this off. Yeah. I know. So they've nothing better to do. You got them on trough, then they're saying alright we'll do it somewhere else. Yeah. Then the longer you got them in here they're likely That's right. to That's right. There's enough here for a trough . Oh aye. Well, I dunno, it's go it's got, I was showing th I was showing the licensing people round erm the inspection of, Jean we Jean wasn't here, we were looking round and fire brigade and that were there and inspection, we turned round and all written across is Jean is a fucking fat cow! Alright ! I mean, I mean you tried not to laugh we tried desperately to avoid looking at her,right . And the environmental health guy there and all. Well they probably thought you wrote it Yeah ! Looks like they're not getting on. This was a good idea of Johnny's which they did, which did before was this corridor, these lights up here that one when it's re-doing, but there's one, two, three, four, five, six and they framed a large advertising poster. Mm. Mm. And so, like hundred quid a year Yeah. for Yeah! For putting it It could be a out. I mean it's six hundred quid for doing nothing innit? That's right. Six is it? Oh. Erm, you know er, I can't remember who they are, but it wasn't clientele, but I mean we could, you know we could Yeah. look around for.. the relevant er That's right. And how much of this stuff's down? I mean, this'll have been down I, oh, won't be able to get as much wear Yeah. This is, this is, this is original as far as I know. Did you lay that yourself? Yeah. A little bit Do they just seem to stick on tap or is it a row? No, no, no this is a row. A row. Yeah. The stuff that's that's the stuff you want. This is, it is not the similar stuff like we've got in the kitchen upstairs? No. No. That rug stuff. It is er, it's er Mm. a actually it is like that stuff. But it's different. It wasn't here was it? Same No. sort of thing. No. Maybe that's the type of thing you want on the floor. I reckon that is. That is it. In there. Make, do some more er extend the er er er er parquet flooring area to give you more dance room. An and, and round the other areas which Up here. and keep the carpet on the high seating areas. Oh aye. Yeah. I think it's better up there. Oh yeah. Aye, but it wouldn't cost very much to carpet those two areas. No. I think you do, you know, do something Yeah. Yeah. a little bit better, but I mean but it, you just need something that's ro that's hardwearing and And practical really, isn't it? you know. As I say, people aren't going in in there to look at, oh! what a pretty carpet you've got. No. Oh no! As long as it's, as long as it, it's warm Well if you remember most of the time the lights are off. Yeah. It's only to create an impression when you're doing it in the day time. Yeah. That's right. I mean, I don't know whether you've thought any more about that idea that Colin had, but, I mean, I don't know,yo cos you haven't said you do, you haven't really looked round it. No, that's right, you know, the, the, the only thing we've, we've actually gonna trying to get that into a the bar is er segregate Perhaps er Jean's left actually . This is this was the, the cloakroom and what we were what we were intending doing originally is turn it into an office. Mm. I mean, we haven't done so far but we, that's what but, this is stuff we got about hundred Oh yeah. and fifty quid for two massive rolls like this. Mm. Well that's, well that's what not ba bad is it for those int Mm. it? Yeah. I mean that's what Jean's talking about getting. Mm. That's alright int it? Oh to but that will fit is a bit Well er bit more thickness than I hoped, er but if it's sat on top of there and on top of what's on. On top of what's on? Right. I don't know whether they were actually sitting right where the bevel or whatever. I know this sort of stuff is we had similar to when I worked in the shop er, used to, he had three quarters of this, guy come round in a van or whatever, back of a van Yeah. and he laid it himself. Mm. and by the entrance and whatever er I think you'd have to get a professional carpet So layer just, just to make certain. Summat like that really, is, is obviously Yeah. And it's just stuck on int it? Yeah. I mean i er I, I spent as I say spent the best part of the year working in here, sort of nine to five type thing and it's mind walking down that bottom end without any ar without any natural light. Mm. Mm. That little office, you know, so I said to Jean, you know, well let's turn this into an office Yeah. basically. Erm No I can did you have a cloakroom then? Or did you No. I mean we u when we, when we use,whe the, the rave used this as a cloakroom. Erm but I mean there are, there are other areas you can use. Mm. And you can use you could use past that erm cos that's the other thing I haven't shown you, is, is this is all ours as well down the bottom end. Erm and that's the other thing about having having, sort of, a lot of people thinking it having, having it as a sort of rock club at night they, they regard it as their own, sort of thing Oh right. I mean, so when we do have to do redecoration we just gotta let the volunteers in. Yeah. Left a, a crate of Pils for them and carry on painting everything. Right this is er that's the snooker next door Next door. Yeah. It's alright, I'll knock it off. You don't need to knock, connect it through. That's the garden sign which blew off in the gales before Christmas and landed on Uri 's car. Erm What you didn't do it? Yes ! That's Breakers in there is it? That's Breakers in there. Erm Is this an entrance as well? It can be. Down the bottom that just goes out to the bottom and there's a back Yeah. erm Yeah. I see that there. And it's got a sign over the Yeah. back with a light if you Yeah, I've seen that, yeah. want it, cos we were you know, we were thinking i we wanted to leave ourselves that option. I mean, we were thinking about like the Sunday markets and things. Yeah. You know, utilizing, except it's a long drag for people, but, but, you Mm. know, anyway. Cleaner's room two dressing rooms, and a toilet. I mean, they're dressing rooms or offices or whatever you want basically, I mean What about there? Ye er that's er, this is just a cleaner's, cleaner's cum store room, you know, the usual Mm. crap. Erm I don't know whether these are open. I'll give you a key. Keep them all locked. You'll find Er This is for changing rooms? So this is a Yeah. there casual act. I mean we, cos we've Sort of. not been putting on any loud music recently I've not had, I'll stretch it out a little bit, but erm you know, we had a heater in here and er, record player and er ra er radio and that. Yeah. I mean, it's a got extra padding on. Well that's right, I mean, you know, it, it when, when it was erm oh what's that cook who had Found the place er tt he's now got that place in Lancaster, the er what was the Trade and Labour club in Lancaster. Oh! Ton Peter ? Yeah, Peter , when he had it, he had er double bed in there with bolts on the inside of the door. Did he? Yeah. Is he? People have often called They say there's Cos Caesars are in there now. Oh are they? Yeah. Oh! Doesn't Yeah. surprise me. You'll be getting what is it in, they can't open now they've lost the er, they've lost some of er, they've lost some sort of . Yeah I know, but it's, it's, it's summat Aye. Right. So that's round it So the easiest thing really is obviously is if I get the thing sorted out and then, turn it Yep. around and er we've had a word with Elliel this morning. Mm. Yeah. Erm they they're quite happy with with all that sort of stuff. Yeah. They're gonna come up are you free on Fri Thursday afternoon at four o'clock? Thursday's a busy day for us really. Five o'clock's fine, but four o'clock's probably . But I,th th they're actually supposed to get Friday rush Mm. and then you really should with the staff we've Yeah. got. So Er , cos unless we're going to get it straight, but it just all comes in like this time of year, and just comes and let us in. I mean What so, so ba as la as towards five o'clock as, as possible. If we got here, if we got if we got to fa wherever you wanted to meet, where do you want to meet? Well I'd rather, I'd Come down to us. I'd rather ma come down to you to be honest. Well if you come down to us so Cos then Mike ought to see your operation as Yeah. well you see, so If you bring him down about Yeah. you know, half four to five Half four. we'll be You'll get the idea we'll be getting on top Alright. then, you know. Okay. We're usually done by five, you know, so there's Yeah. no problem Make by five Yeah. o'clock. Yeah. Five o'clock. Yeah. I think the biggest thing really is just like they say, is how much you can get that done for and, get the roofing done, that's gotta be done. Yeah. Er Yeah. some paper them toilets cos er, I'm, you know, I say, from our our, both side is something that's er I mean, everybody's looking purely from and return sales. All you're looking at is for an income , an income from it and er I reckon can do very well. What do you, what you think of that bar area Barry? Do you think it could be inclined to be Er, the top one? as a drinking area Yeah. U yeah, I mean I during the day? yeah, well it was it was what I wanted to, it was what I wanted to, it was wanted to do initially, I mean, but then you have like so many ideas that Yeah. you know, you can't do them all in that sense, but if you had somebody somebody like Colin might be able to Cos you only need, you only need him to drag sort of fifteen, twenty people in initially And five, ten of them And they'll all, they'll all be drinkers. Yeah. But I mean sa ta so there's an at little atmosphere there anyway Yeah. erm and then you can, I mean, well it gives you the opportunity to, you know bang in a bloody jazz band or whatever you wanna do in there somewhere Yeah. and, and build it up like that. As you said, they haven't actually, you know, it'd be if you could get some sort of portable Screening. screen that'd just shut it off. Mm. So people don't feel as though they're sat in a wide ai wide open No, I know, yeah. Yeah, that's right. you know. Erm Well you ca you ca you can get that. You can get, you can do something But, yeah can't you? Yeah. Like you say, if you get your satellite T V in there Yeah. you know, you can Yeah. just make it a cosy little bar where you can Yeah. That's right. It won't cost any to give it a go would it? No. If Colin's if Colin's up for it, it wouldn't at all. I mean, it needs to perhaps perhaps they can do something for the first couple Oh yeah, need some sort of er Yeah. idea to get it going and get it off the ground even if you you put your beer on at, well I just thought of couple Boddingtons put their they're they're gonna put their, they're gonna put there's at a pound a pint. Mm. You know, just to attract some people, you know, approach the brewery, say look what about a few keg? And if you get two or three keg put that money into free stock you know. Yeah. Say you Cleaner's not, the cleaner's not done behind here yet. If you open it up, if you do get it open, and advertise it at Boddingtons a pound a pint, get them straight to come in. You're not making a fortune at first, but once you get it going Mm. You said about traditional The only other thing is the . Depends where your money is really. Whe whe where's your cellar? Right underneath. Right at the bottom. Yeah, but if, if you How big's your fire exit, entrance? the fire exit You could put it behind, you could feed it through the wall behind to where that Yeah. spacious room is where all your chairs are couldn't you? Yeah. We probably could, yeah. Th well, it's no, it's not quite the back. how would you get in there? Yeah, that's the, that's the thing I was Well, it's got, it's a bit dry this. I know. It's a bloody, yeah. You can still . It's fucking ridiculous! Erm cos you'd tell the brewery wouldn't you? The only other thing to do is, is do what er er, we did at one time and just get a bright beer and open it up and er, and then pull it. And have it. I know. Now there's a thought. It er, you'd have problem with er But would you? Depends tha I don't know what sort of draw you can put on that pump here. They're getting smart. But I wanna do what the Three Miners do in Lancaster don't they? That's that er that's a traditional beer innit? Yeah. That's right, yeah. they gotta but he's knocking it straight Yeah. down aren't they? It's just getting it up here. Yeah! Yeah ! Yeah, very strong lad this. You might have to do it later. Can I look at the telly? Yeah, course you can. I was gonna It's in here. suggest that. Up here and then get . Oh, oh that's my order for Thursday. Oh right. Have you got line cleaner? Yeah? Mm. Yeah? That's put a . A fair, int it doing? The bar, the bar, on the bar. The bar's there, I mean I was thinking you had your stool, painted that white on Yeah. or a red a deep Oh yeah. sort of red behind the bar, maybe get a couple more like that. Yeah, a lick of paint and, and Oh yeah. and, and that, you know and you can And then we'll fill the shelves up. That's right. All, all, one thing we haven't discussed is, is these ar these arrears int it, that we've got? This, the rates Yeah. is the biggest one int it? Right. Right. Now, I don't know if it's worth asking Well I could council to, if you could like lump it with the next year 's. El e Elliel, Elliel said that er they could probably twist the council's arm What's that for Barry? Well, this, you know we're on about this money Yes. well, there is, there is ba bad debts, you know which er Yeah. I don't know if I've got them here. How much is that for? Well it was er it was about Twenty two. here we are, that's it er it's rent which we we're gonna clear Mm. there's twelve for rates, and the twelve and, other two's ours which we're we Yeah. can, we can stand on that. Mm. You've got, you've got like water rate, twelve hundred, er, rates, twelve but er, what we could try to do is approach them and see if we can lump it in with this year and that, obviously have to pay higher I mean, some of it is is the next two month anyway erm Yeah. But we we'd usually have no but rents, er we've no er we've lease to pay back have we or owt like that? Oh and the other the other thing is, is, is by asking Fred for To pay. That's right. But even so, then ask Fred on the long term would be ideal. Er, the biggest thing is for us is is making payable for you. Yeah. I mean At first we've not gone any further with this Fre with Fred because No. we're just leaving it so we sort ourselves out first on, on how Yes. we feel happy with it and Yeah. and whe how, how, whether you want Fred involved in, in what way. Well it's really that's needed be here, you know, if we ca Yeah. if we can And if we can resolve it with cos then you're getting summat on a different style of thinking to that, you know, I know Fred doesn't wanna be involved but then you've always got somebody, well we'll have to go and see Fred first. Mm. And, and I don't know. Yeah, you could work it Go see Fred and he's probably got a few more pounds ready available than Yeah. than we have. Oh yeah. You know, that's the er That's right. bit difficult. Yeah. And that's your er, cos er personally Oh, I've got the I'll say that it's not. accounts in various off-shore islands and, and Yeah. black bin liners in his back garden . If we can sort him out with rates and, I don't know. If he can o if we can offset, if we can use all, if he'll out time type of thing Mm. with that Yeah. erm the oh er You've gotta put an offer in and pay it so much a month haven't you or something and, and, and get it paid off over a period of time? And then you can do it without Fred and, really, with Fred is, is at the end of day you could pro proof pay load could go back to yourself and I, I E and ourselves, but by having him that other cut you're gonna be saying well it's all a bit more than your share. I mean, from my point of view I don't think he's ever I don't think Fred'd be looking for anything as a return. No. Not in the shor I'd be quite happy to come not in the short term. Not in the short term. you get tucked into it, and obviously there we'll keep it sort of low profile. But giving it a good clean out and getting Mm. it dus painted behind the things whatever, come on Sunday or whatever and just say that you might In return, yeah. Just take a quite keen just to sort of get Mm. mucked into it Mm. just to save money See if you can get but as long as, I say, the biggest thing from my point er is not to so lose money if you can do from where we're going. No. And use the fifteen grand to its best image in the way that you feel then you can turn round and run a club so it can get people in. Mm. And we can get the lighting in. Because that's what your best thing is Mm. you've got the ideas and th the motions. Mm. And for yourself, and what we don't wanna do is like I say, is spend money that is just gonna disappear and say shit! We haven't really improved the pub's barrelage if goes away. No. I mean,th the other aspect of the, of the fif the other aspect of the, the brewery and me that I was talking about, er I'm thinking about is that we we could do with you know, okay those,th those figures are I mean, unless they're really realistic it's gonna be you know, six months or so Mm. before we start getting up to the kind of figures where we can actually see a you know Yeah. a profit each week Mm. a a, a, reasonably substantial profit, I mean That's right, yeah. so, with the best will in the world it's going to be six months so let's so we need a little of breathing space Yeah. on that six months. Now er, er obviously if, if we can, if we can get the money off the brewery cos you know, if we can get a little bit more That's right, yes. than we actually need to spend that that Yeah. enables us to you know, have that breathing space erm so we can start Well what, what we can, you know I say, he's offering us this fifteen unsecured if we can, mind you Yeah. I don't know if we can squeeze any more or what I reckon but, but, you know if say well look, you know, we could do with twenty five and he turns round and he might say well you know,yo he might say no Mm. but we know we've got fifteen just to get us Yeah. going. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What he said then is look, you know hey he's, all you're saying really is ah, if your barrelage is there then what we do is buy five or six barrels from Morecambe Bay Wines. Yeah. You can soon get rid of those. You can say Morecambe Bay Wines and buy all his Mm. cos what I, I just said to him I said look, I says a er sometimes I says it's an awkward time drop for us. Says well we'll get it delivered here you know, only without Yeah well that's invoice. That's what we wanted innit? Well what we do, what we use What we do is buy it barrelled and and Yeah. get out be Yeah. Morecambe Bay License form. Barrel or keg. Because we ca we can live on thirty pound on barrel can't we? I think we can do. I'd like you to just purely myself, I'm not saying I'm right and you're not right and people like Mm. my o my own personal view is if we just pay the fifteen and it's sort of off in there straight away and then spend but not to sort of say, well you can spend it and update it can't you? But spend what we feel is gonna make the club Mm. better image like you say Mm. somebody comes to look at it just for a view I mean, I say, I, I'm quite happy coming like I said th if you motion behind there, make the bar presentable we'll fill it out with stock then that'll look better Yeah. but if we do display Put more stock in. we've got a load Yeah. of tent cards and display things Yeah. that could decorate that. Yeah. You know, and we'll do it ourselves, I say I mean, what you want Barry is like wanna keep it low profile. Mm. But we've both got time to sort, I say, somebody, we'd enjoy doing it. Because we, we, we either do it ourselves and spend Before the cricket season. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, America are getting a private cup for here. I mean, if you just emulsion Yeah. that, the red bits, into red and got the, so I say, nice sort of tent cards and and got a few firms, I mean firms and come on in and do your display you know Yeah. and your promotions and Yeah. That's something we will, we will be able to do is, you know, is Yeah. I mean things like what I want on desperately quickly is Rebel Yell cos they're spending a fortune in the rock, well all our punters all know it. I mean you go down in London it's the it's just like Rebel Yell everywhere, but it's all heavy rock so Yeah. I mean it's just perfect for that, but I know they do a display unit and things like Yeah. that. But I mean, I have to go Well that's all it wants. through, I have to go through Michelin to get that. Yeah well we'll, you won't know, you'll be . You might do. No, no, I'll be We That's what, I mean according to Tracey on You could of told me Tracey's on. Yeah, that bitch! Didn't mention . He said . It was er one bottle free, buy two and get a bottle free and, plus display unit you see Yeah. and I said well I want it on but he said you'll have to go for this. Oh course. Said alright, so I filled out a bloody form and I went to Michelins, they knew nothing about it and they hadn't got it displayed either ! Yeah. And this was like three weeks later, it wasn't Mm. you know cos I said Oh yeah. I wanted to begin with that week. But that mean, I mean that's Yeah. examples handfuls of it, you know. Oh yes, you could pay for that . I think we should be able to get some proper er box coolers in here off the Mhm mm. you know these, these er lift down ones you know Mm mm. you can put all your cans in and Mm. get, you know, get them in and say and say look yo well you're gonna save money on the pints well give us four box coolers for a year and you Mm. know which style I mean? Mm. Yeah. Yeah I know. The big ones. Do all wine coolers Yeah. as well don't Yeah. they? Don't do a lot of wine you know No but if you, only for your functions and Yeah. Well true. That's kind of true, yeah. I mean, we went through we went through nearly a case of one point fives at Mary's party. Leibfraumilch. I mean, it, we had I mean I reckon we had to or do you want to Yeah. how do you functions Nine, eight er nine er one point fives. Your shoe's just fallen off Barry ! Yeah I know . I didn't think he was get there ! Er Get a few Pils' cabinets You could ge off them. It's, it's great! Yeah I know. The staff can't wander off you see on a night. Can't sneak off at back cos they Oh yeah. move! I know. They're stood here like this ! They could do your function thing. Have your function here and get a bottle of champagne free kind of thing, or whatever your, with your parties. Something, I mean, we can work that in the price or whatever Yeah. you know. I mean, other thing we really need to all, er you see, when I was working at it, and when we were doing it all the time Yeah. er you were using your own contacts Well that's right. like Yeah. Yeah. you know mate of mine had got his son at bloody public and wants one of these posh public school type all night parties, so we had one of those, and, you know and er I say, like I say I just just red er paint summat like, these are white these and just go down on the red and just up there and just up here, just get your displays Yeah. and your bar'll look ten times better. Yeah. I tell, I mean ju okay, forgetting the carpet at the moment it's, it'll cost, it'll cost about a grand to get the toilets all done up Yeah. three hundred quid for satellite in erm I need these shutters repairing cos they're Yeah. knackered! And, and odds You need it all. and sods and I, I, I'd like to buy a couple of lighting effects, but I mean Yeah. you're only talking about a co you know, a few hundred quid for that. Let's just choose, I know you can't change There is what the there But as I say No you can't you know, Yeah. get, get a just er cooler the basis of this fifteen grand, is using the fifteen grand but like we can see you using that I'd like to look at shuttering that area if we are gonna do your Yeah. Yeah. I will, well But we can't I, I, I reckon it that could pay for itself if Colin got in so you'll do that one get Colin to pay for it. Colin's awa I think he's, he's taking kids away for camping and things all next week but I'll, I'll try You need I can say to him that about it. yo for a start you need those two,th these end two you need bli you need blinds on because you can't utilize the screen in the summer without these I mean we got, we got blinds for all those windows, I mean Mm. they're all, all they are are they're pho photographic you know, when you have blackouts and er, you know the Yeah. they're that kind of mat Yeah I know what you mean. white material, they're just white, but they, they a total black out which they use on the rave nights. I mean, I do I, think the view is quite nice certainly if you got a summer it's Oh well, yeah. quite a pleasant evening. See, my idea originally was that cos it comes back from when I used to go in the in the Blue Anchor in Lancaster after work I mean we had everybody in there! We had like market traders in there managers of Marks and Spencers and Woolies Yeah. and, you know, building societies, insurance companies, and everybody's i the rounds were like twenty five quid a time, but everybody's only drinking halves cos you could never That's right. you know, so just half a gui but it, it got that, but once they changed the opening hours do you remember when they brought in six Yeah. o'clock? Yeah. It destroyed all that. Yeah. And then er, they brought it back and then they started doing to quarter to six, but it still wasn't good enough cos you can't, you can't have all these people in suits and briefcases stood outside a pub for quarter of an hour waiting for it open , you know No. I mean it wasn't good That's right. for their image. No, no. So Suit off. Oh no they're your So it like killed that. But I'm sure there's, I'm sure there's that kind of trade for, you know, a sort of a Bic Biro runner type, you know, that kind of well our age group, you know Yeah. the sort of Well that's it, yeah. thirty to, thirty to Yeah. fifty age group. That's right. And, and people want a drink after work and have a chat, cos the Yeah. it was a it was all business people and you're talking about That's right. you know what it was like, what things were and Once you can get people in you know, you gotta attract them in, but once you get them in they'll Yeah. be,ev oh it's alright Yeah. I quite like it. Got them into this place. Make it pleasant, you know, and have to do summat you know, just to make it have to get nice mirrors up on wall and I mean the wine bar you know in Lancaster did that happy hour didn't they? And that got That's right. heaving Yeah. with business people. That's what you wanna do. Like I say, you know put, put your Boddys on at a I bet that would be really interesting. pound a pint between Yeah. five and seven. Elliel's our discount because you know they're doing No. It was great! Mm. I mean the biggest thing really I think my interest in all this to get secure trade from us Mm. which we're gonna get and get your salary. You know, because they're the few main things round here, you're happy, and you can feel that obviously you, you'll be working for something. Yeah. I mean, to be honest I've put in like two, two years without any Oh I know. Yeah I know. salary with this place. I mean I've been doing outside jobs to get, you know, I mean, like doing festivals and whatever else to get Yeah. my money in. So the Has an anybody come to you through the and, you're losing money,, if you're not, if you're not seeing any return you're No. you're going through the motions No. I mean, God, you know if I've gotta go down to London for three days I'd rather do that cos it's gonna earn me two or three grand. Well we could set, like you say and no you know, and get it going and you make a salary and, and then if there's anything left e er, between us, and then that's all well Yeah. and good. Yeah. We're, we're not wanting a wage out of it or anything, you know We'll get it to the Well you'll get it, you'll get it from the turnover won't you? We we're, we're quite, we're quite pleased, you know, say well let's see if we can get it going and, and make a success out of it. And also, I mean, if we turn over hundred thousand pound with you in a year you're gonna make some money out of that. That's right. Yeah. You know, so it's Yeah. er Make a grand or summat out of that won't you? That's it, yeah. If we're lucky. If you're lucky . The only th the only thing is, is th is what we'll do the beer, whether we're gonna have to connect it to the brewery or whether we can get it through ourselves, I don't know. I would think you're probably gonna have, committed to separate accounts. Yeah, I'm not too bothered about that. But as I said But if it's, if it can be dropped at your place Well that's it, yeah. Because I mean er you can always say look, I've got commitments all over the place and actually be Well I've tol I, I sold them that Yeah. I says, I says he's go he can't lose his . Yeah. with you, you've gotta get the rest of the stuff. Yeah. Yeah. As long as See we can Well that it doesn't, it doesn't matter what barrelage you put through it but put, as long as we know that er, the fifteen thou it's gonna be written off at thirty pound a barrel, so the sooner you, you do it, the sooner it's written off. Yeah. But also Good. it also means we haven't got any, that's an area where we haven't got any repayments. I'll just have a look round there again Barry. Yeah okay. Do you wanna Can I see the back? play with those figures again? Dunno. Before we get started doing it. Well yeah, doing the cellar. Do you wanna have a look in the cellar now? Oh yeah. Okay. gonna have a look round the back is he? Yeah. I'm just, I mean I reckon you could, I dunno if you can just pull them in. Draw them up and we used to do the would be quicker . Oh ta. you're gonna be really talking about next week aren't you? It looks like it. Yeah if you can. Definitely. See not that easy. No. I'm just thinking of that exit there. This, this is good. I mean if you put that the nearest one You mean, it's a fire exit so that's the problem so you're not gonna be able to leave anything in it that would obstruct. But ah, so this, it's the actual fire exit for here int Mm. it? Yeah. Mm. That leads downstairs don't it? Yeah. It goes out next to the cellar. I suppose like you say at nine thirty once the music starts no one 's gonna want to Oh er, if you put, if you put if you put wrought iron gates gates decorated type of thing round there Yeah. and then somebody stands there, two fifty that's what I were thinking, an admission from here. Mm. And, and wrought iron it, yeah, you know. Well wrought iron'd look it'd look quite good for the functions trade as well cos you can get Yeah. the artificial plants up it Mm. and whatever else Yeah. when you do Get climbing plants Yeah. You can get it, it will soon cover Yeah. cover it actually. Yeah. Yeah. I mean close that area down. And that, that would do double job cos that would do the job of your blinds as well wouldn't it? Yeah. Yeah. And then they'll cause the atmosphere rather than Mm. big open wide Mm. club. Yeah. Mm. Get your wrought, your gates there, or something like that to be Yeah. round the back, which entrance would they come in? They wouldn't come in that end. Well all you do right, you have gates Well I mean then they're open so that at half nine you close them there, or at ten o'clock you close them there and you say when they come through if you're going out that Yeah. way or whatever. Yeah. I mean I I think you just have to but It's something that you've gotta be You'd have to play it by ear I think. Yes thinking ahead. Yeah. Yeah. You know, you're thinking well Let's at first you could just wrought iron it round and, and just give it that As you say, if somebody's been in there from bloody five o'clock and wants to stay till eleven Well that's it. or twelve, then fine, let them. I mean I th I wouldn't, I wouldn't mind that No. you know, I mean So you could either come in half eight, half nine or That's right. You know But really, you know Yeah. what you do? At half nine you put someone on the door here to take money, anyone who comes in, whether they come into here or go into there Mm. anyone who's been drinking all afternoon if you want to er, wander across Yeah, I mean, what you, what you'd have to be careful of is, is sooner or later people'll catch on to Yeah. coming in at quarter past nine Yeah. Yeah. buying one extra drink and erm getting a you know cheaper than saving theirselves two and a half quid then. pint they buy, and if they buy five pints Yeah ! they can have a three, er er a three pound voucher. Can you imagine Polly organizing that all! We're getting complicated aren't we? Why can't we do it, to me, cost effective. Torture. Complicating issues. I remember at the Uni when we used to give we used to put stamps on people, you know, Yeah. for pass outs and that or anything So does Broadway. and er I bloody, I said, I said in the end I've, what we ought to do is lop some part of their anatomy off, like a little digit or something then we can prove they've been in eventually, after about two years when you get this sort of armless, legless cor Oh oh! body oh he's a good customer! We'll let him in for free! He gets a free, free ticket ! Well it's like, like a all you want to do is That's what you get,you just gotta stand or you went downstairs to another bar Yeah,th the trouble is you're and got a stamp you and they would you, you're doing it in the same room Yeah. aren't you? That's the . That is as well. But I I dunno, I see it's not once you're u actually up here, looking I think it's different when you're up here looking back as when you're over there looking up here. Yeah. It's not quite as cold and empty as If it got going you'd probably use mo another, another half of area, you know Yeah, yeah, you want you don't wanna close it off. But, like you say maybe just just a bit of wrought Yeah. ironwork Yeah. I think so. to just I think you do I think that would look good anyway and Yeah. and it would also enable you to quickly and easily do something on the erm on the, on the private functions night to make it look different. Mm. I mean, I wouldn't suggest putting plants up and everything for our normal you know, rock nights, I mean we just have the wrought iron up and whatever, but I mean, with them sort of then Yeah. once you got erm tied into these you can Oh yeah. do whatever to the thing. Yeah. But it would give you affect. That's right. I mean, those are just we just went out and chucked a few fucking trees down. They're not real then Barry? No, the trees are the er things tied on to them aren't. Oh. But er Yeah. I think, it's quite actually, it needs a bit of character. I mean, that'll cover Yeah. if you did that in quite a few places Yeah. throughout the room it would cover your cracks and your holes Ye and your, your . I mean, what we initially wanted to do with all this was cover this whole area in, in greenery and have this as a sort of restaurant ta type. Mm. I mean, again, it's ideas when you're sat It's ideas. planning, before you've actually moved in and get It is. Yeah, yeah, that's right. and get and then, then you start that's, that's the other thing when there's only two of you involved and you, we were opening for that first sort of eighteen months five, six days a week just keeping on top of a day to day business doesn't allow you to sit back No, I know that. and expand it, and whereas, you know, that, that's one area that'd be great with having yo your involvement Yeah. that you go in and say well you know It sounds like this sort of thing Yeah. When did you paint all this green? It was when I was working for Walt Disney, so it'll be two years ago. Two years Yeah. ago. I was over in Belfast and I came back and it were green. It was alri it's, it's actually lasted reasonably well considering it hadn't been Yeah. for two years. Yeah. But again, it was all done, it was all literally done in a weekend. Yeah. It was like a virtually an all night blitz job and so bits of it, you know, it wasn't like, totally completed, you know, you've got and as Scouse was doing some of it it was er the paintwork leaves something to be desired in areas . Something there Barry little bit in there look. Just coming down a little bit. They just need brushing back up. It's got a few you've got the Not a problem. roof repaired haven't you? This Yeah. The heating's very efficient as well. It's very hot gas heating. Yes. Erm They did do it, like you say it was more or less just covering for itself now and then use Mm. you build up, up and up don't you? Yeah. So Yes. Let us have a look at cellar and then we'll, d'ya wanna, and then we'll, Yeah. then we can say we've to looked at everything and then we know where you know Yeah. Okay. and then we can er we can start, you know, we can, at least we can say look, we've got fifteen grand coming in and th it . Yeah. But we need a full . Yeah. I mean, we can, we can start by we I mean we can get people set up for doing things from the first of March can't we? Yeah. The little bits and pieces that we talked about. Well we, well we, we can start if you wanna start with the Or we can think about doing something about Yes. this. We can start giving it a lick of paint if you wanna start giving it a lick of paint. You see, now the more you think about it, I mean the more you you don't actually use this No. very much. I mean, you look at it, if everybody was seated in this area that could be seated I mean, you're only talking about bloody I thirty people. I don't think it's too bad actually. I don't think the carpet's too bad at all really. Well th there's areas, I mean Yeah. tha the licens Oh yeah. the licensing people would pull us up on that Yeah. if they came. But maybe, if you could cut it off from there. That's what I mean, you gotta and then do it, clear it, and then clear all that Mm. and just left that area Clear all that and they're obviously, they're gonna say Come right up to the right up to bar really aren't you? Yeah. I mean th th er, the other thing psychologically is it's, you know Blue Rhapsody. Blue Rhapsody. If you wanted to cha if you want to change it slightly you've got a problem. You know I think it, I think it's something that you can say well you know, that'd be one of our objectives Mm. once we get it going, but le Mm. alright,we we've got Yeah. a few bob in the kitty Right. let's, or we can go to brewery for another five grand, we'll do the carpet Mm. now. I reckon the first thing really is, is get your salary. Mm. Get your salary, that you feel that I'm doing this and I'm getting it right. Mm. Is that the right sort of, if our I mean from our objective is to get more sales Yeah. right now. That's right. That's right. And we've gotta That's right. manipulate people to say well, how do we get them drink more? And you say like five pound a head when they they come in How bad's the seating though? Sit there till Is it, is it that bad? It's, it's, if, it needs doing Oh it needs doing does it? You know. If you've got a guy gathered, I'm not saying try but if you got somebody who, who did the job and gathered it in like they would do. Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But it i An upholster. It's a perpetual patching up job at the moment Yeah. Yeah. Because, because it is only patched up, it's Yeah. it create more problems o you know cos people stand on it and Get an upholsterer just to come and tidy it up Yeah. and fill in where there's been Yeah. some damage done. Yeah, that's right. I mean there's Just, just tart it up really. There's a bit of structural damage to the support Yeah. and things like that, that start the seating going and things. Right. Okay. Oh this this actual stuff anyway we'll go, we're putting that with that is alright to that Oh yes. the back's have been Yeah. alright. Oh yeah. There's a few of them damaged but, but erm I think we've repaired most of them. You see, we did get it all completely repaired when we moved in, cos it was in a hell of a state from Peter ! Cos Peter had this place. Yeah. That's right. Well we, we, we know We knew about that. about that. How? Did he Cos we owe you money? we gone Well and got it actually. Did you! Bloody right! God! You must be one of the few people It were quite good cos what we had, we had th the the other partner who was, you know, the other partner is Michael. He was called, what was he called? Ken ? No, no. No. No, that's Yes. that's John . But what do you call him? That erm I know who you mean, I met him, yeah. Cos the other guy was a, was a bar manager Duncan or Mm. Der summat like that, and his wife had a baby at the same time as Elaine's so she our midwife would come and er, so the she kept in touch really of of what they were because they wanted to, I'll take the place off , they wanted to take it over. I don't think they was er as bad a No. shower of shit No. as he were No. tended to No. be. But er, in the end they never got the license back. Because what they did try and do is buy the catholic club didn't they? Top of Lancasters. Next to the Cos the Alex. The Alex. They tried to get behind there, the catholic Yeah. club. Right. Then they got, they didn't get it past. Mm. But er he actually owed Yeah, that used to be about five grand at one stage and got it down to three and half, and then he got to six hundred and eighty and they went to court and then they got He paid it. Paid it through the court. Well that was remarkably Lucky. lucky. Yeah I know. He didn't half go for a lot again. Yes we did seem to be quite lucky to keep . Yeah. But I, I, I'm amazed that breweries keep lending him money! I know. I mean, it's unbelievable, you know th er, he's done so many breweries and yet why they don't talk to wo well I mean they must talk to one another. Because you get people like Ben who's giving his money he doesn't really give a toss! He don't give a toss. Mm. As long as he's got an installation going in and if it Yeah. if it gets written off or Gets bigger. or someone has to take a, a bi a co company has to take a big lot off. It's par for the course really. Mm. Well, you know. Dreadful innit? Well he's got that much money to burn Barry that's what it is. Mm. You've gotta burn to, to cover all they've just laid three hundred and thirty management staff off management, not dray lads, not brewery lads. Yeah. Three hundred and thirty managers where I think it's your, that's your T V thing is it? Yeah. T V, video projection. How do you work that thing? How do you work that thing? From behind there. And where's it come there? That one. That just puts on At the moment we use Rock videos. Yeah. I mean, Mark's got some great stuff of the sixties er er er, ex, ex movies of the so er trailers of ex movies, you know Yeah. sizzling, sexual and all these sort of and,wha what was really outrageous in the sixties looks so tame, but Yeah. it's on in black and white and fifties, it looks quite good fun. Well that on a Thursday It's night could be a sixties night then. I mean when we get, when A fifties night even, you know. when you get tho when you get the half the er when you get sort of well like the scooterist dos and th the DJs bring it up, I mean they bring in a hard core You'll have to try and change the old fash and things. And and and quite amazing watching Jean Yes. picking up Yeah. bottles on the night and bonking going on ! Was Alistair ringing you yesterday? Me? Well he rang Peter. Oh God! Well he must have been trying . and they told me it was , very, very urgent! So I said, oh! Well, come and speak to him. But, so I went, and he said oh! Barry's dad's been on the phone he wants to you to urgently book a bus so he co Will you see if that says, that sort, yeah it is. I'll put that on. I think it is, isn't it? Yeah. But he does Yeah, you just bend them over. That's it. It's, they're not as easy to bend as you think. Got a screwdriver round here. Do you want me to hold them up for you? And this blasted , then we'll get start. You know what Colin does and whatnot. Right. You want me to see if I can find Mick don't you? Mick who?. Mick. Actually, I had a think last night, I'll tell you who else you want to get hold of. Your friend who's the signwriter. Mm. Don't Yeah. you? Harvey. Yeah. I hadn't thought of that. Lives near the factory somewhere. Might be in on Friday. Doubt it. Why? It's Saturday it was it's not bloody arrangement. Oh no! I meant I meant he lives somewhere near the factory. I think Scouse knows where he lives. Cos sometimes you see him a lot, and then he has a spell of not coming in don't Yeah. he? That's right. Mm. They keep sending, they keep changing my passport! Well they do, don't they? Well I'll have changed one next week. What's wrong with that brush? It's broken. It's broken. Mm. What i what's other end? Has other end already been used? Looks like, looks like sawing off and redoing Ah! it. Need to get a new brush. I think that's a point . Just get a a new stick for the That's enough. Just go in bin. I just want to make this phone call for when we lock the door and . Mm. I'm going into Lancaster Saturday. Erm no, but I can leave a message can't I? To say, you know they er when Barbara must, has got to go back in hospital . That little Lancaster . Mm. Erm, you know she had this cancer seven years ago when she had her breast cancer and, had her breast taken off they've now found it's gone further in seven years she, you know, she was forgotten all about it, anyway she found a little dent apparently our Laura said that's just as bad as finding lumps. She just went and said I've got this you know, check up, cos she knew she was going to Christies for her final check up and, they've whizzed her in. Got to do another operation and remove all the glands from under her arm. So it's not as though they're gonna get anyone to come . No. I mean I I obviously hadn't said that to her. Oh no! Obviously. But er she said she'd been feeling a bit rough recently. But she never suspecting it was, you know, when they'd been alright for seven years you you think you're alright don't you? So she's, going in today. Erm so I'm gonna go in this afternoon to see her. See if they've taken any . And I hope . I hope she does. Mm. You know,. Yeah. Anything in it? Have you seen it? Yes. Well they would . Oh! A bit You know like you being all pathetic. No. Well, a bit I intend carrying on as the parliamentary candidate and somebody had obviously asked Dave why it is something has nothing whatsoever to do with the constituency. That was last time's agent. And he said, oh well it's probably being discussed at the next meeting. Well he's under a lot or else he won't. Still he won't come if he thinks there's any messing about. I mean,i it would be zilch for the Labour Party to try and swap candidates now. You know it would be just stupid wouldn't it? Yeah. Mm. What would they achieve? Well that's right. I mean I don't know Dave 's just not That's stupid! Why make any comment whatsoever? Yeah. Why not just keep quiet? So, you know cos it just says all candidates receiving . I mean Labour can't win either way. They've got to hope that it'll be resolved before then. If they put another candidate in it's doesn't do Labour's name any good does it? Mm. Well it's a It's a waste enough of these ad pamphlets. Guilt? Well it's, it's been looking as though you're you're guilty before there's problem a admitted. I mean as we're not looking to win anyway, I don't know what the hell they're bothered about. I mean it's not exactly, you know, the world's safest Labour seat is it? No. What was this big presentation yesterday? The tourist notices buffets. Mm? Well what it is Thrown out of their offices. Champagne and caviar job. Probably won some trivial award. No, no, no, they were going to present him wi for something. Something to do with hoteliers or summat. Yeah. You don't for Probably needed a map to get here did he? Presume so. I've read it. Yeah. I've just seen to it that . A hotel with wouldn't you? Er, in Blackpool? Mm. How long's the conferences? Two days? Three days? Friday, Saturday and Sunday. Friday afternoon, two o'clock Saturday, Sunday. Finishes at lunch time on Sunday. Erm I mean I don't know, whether What? you're still interested in, I don't know whether you're still interested in speaking but erm, we've just been approached by the A N C, they're pulling everybody back, there's, everybody's going home. Oh. Cos, the repatriation what they call, the United Nations start Hello. Can I have bookings please? Oh! Good morning. This is Mrs . I made a booking for erm, two doubles and two singles for the seventh and eighth you've sent me the confirmation out at the non-delegate price. Co erm it should have been,i it's a Labour Party booking and a Conservative Labour Party booking. Erm, we did ac yeah, seventh and eighth, yes. Yes. Got the special rates in front of me. It's the Labour Party conference erm bed, breakfast and evening meal is thirty five pounds and forty. No, it's bed and breakfast is quoted at thirty five a erm double is quoted at sixty six, and singles at forty six . This apparently happened to Jim last year . But, he did get a special price? Yeah. Yeah. Say what can I get them for then ? Say, bugger all! Well, quite. So they don't want to Where is it?? with Gordon. Labour Party local government I know. themselves. What ? Yes. Be sixty five for a double sixty five for single You want a new door valve fitting on there. Once the winter comes Erm, well that's not, not including forty pound it is two little well at the bottom forty so Yeah. the door's been broken Forty six. Right. Erm, they're thirty a time Yes. those aren't they? Cos he, he changed the whole pad you know. Well, I, I don't I'd ever the whole booking. Is it is it er I mean it's reasonable because it's only bottom one? They did at Blackpool last week Yeah, yeah. No that's alright. It's when the middle ones are gone tha that's a problem Yeah. innit? Right. No that's okay, just leave it at that. If, if this happens now you, you won't get bookings for a national conference in there. Mm. It's actually in it's, it's actually a special leaflet produced by Blackpool, nineteen ninety two re register of conference accommodation. And these are the prices quoted for erm no, it doesn't say from no nope it just says what the prices would be. But apparently this happened last year at this particular conference. Yes. Well, I haven't got a fax here but I I can send you one because I certainly know my delegates wouldn't want to book at er mm. Yeah, no well we, we can let you have a copy erm but erm, you know, I, I can't make these reservations at at normal prices, my delegates won't accept that. So, tell, tell me what you're saying it is. Yeah. Yeah. Well that's not what's been quoted you see. It's, erm th th the whole, the two conferences for the year, local government and national conference are are on this same register. Yes. Yes, it's the i I mean, I, I happen to be a delegate to national conference as well, so I ha I actually have two of these brochures. I've got the brochure for local government conference, which is this weekend and I've got the brochure for national conference. So I actually have the same brochure twice. But erm I know my delegates won't, won't want to book at that er it's, they, they will expect to book at prices quoted in the in the conference register. Okay. We will. Thanks. Bye . Certainly won't want to book at that Barry! Well haven't you got a problem if there's no hotels available? I have got a massive problem. Well you can always commute. Well, that's what we do because they won't put up with that. Have to try Is there no hotels I mean, just along that Preston Road? Well, that's what I'll have to look for now. I'm in difficulties now. And these are quoting er Mind you, you're not gonna get a delegate rate from them are you? Eh? You're no the further we, you go away, the further you go away from Blackpool but it's not at Oh yeah. But I think delegate's rate. I mean, I can find I can find places that are reasonable at that. But Francis told me that had happened to them last year. Boo bookings please. If it's still possible to book erm, two doubles and a twin for this weekend or are you booked up ? Are they delegates all the time conference? Well I couldn't get one . I'm in real trouble. giving a giving it a a service? Ah yes. When she's Yes. Mm. That plastic cupboard for the keyboards that Yeah, the cupboards that got all the No, no. The Which one? the other one. Yeah, that's right. You know what you have to do? On the Oh right! it sits on top of the hood. Oh yes, that's right yeah. Sorry! Yeah. Yeah, I'd empty your liquid out of the keyboard Yeah. You know you need that Yeah. keep those on all the time. That's right. It came off at one stage. Right. They weren't using it, so Oh! put it back on and Aye. Someone's keep it on. ye cos you know, it's easy enough to Yeah. just get a few drips Yeah. you've had it! Ah! You found one of those. Yeah. But erm you've got problems. especially blackcurrant and orange I know. Aye. Oh! revolting! and it's Evesham. And it's . I'll confirm to you today. And they'll arrive,mo Friday afternoon. Okay. Thanks very much indeed. Bye . That was lucky! That was very lucky! It was Bob who told me he booked we our union normally stay at the Claremont you see. Mm. She said I've got, only got three twin rooms left in the whole of this hotel so I'll ring Francis and tell her. It's alright the Claremont. Oh, they're always quite nice Oh yeah. and sociable Yeah. with us. Francis? It's Jean here. I yes, I've just had my massive little row with The Savoy about the prices and they just wanted to charge us the normal price! So I've said they can get stood on. And I booked at the Claremont which is, twenty eight pounds. Well, I'm not being prepared to be held to ransom by them. And I'm, I'm faxing erm I'm sorry, I'm not gonna fax it, I'm just going to send a letter to national office about The Savoy in First Leisure. Because they can't do this to delegates! Cos they did it with you last year didn't they? Mm. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think we should tell national office that this is, you know, this is happening and it's not on! I've got I'll tell you what I've got, I've got for nineteen ninety two confere Register of Conference Accommodation, from national office whe where they tell you to book! You know, cos I'd got it at a P P C as well, for national conference. So I've actually two you see. So erm I'm sending one back to national office saying, these hotels are sending confirmation at the full price for local government conference. Now I, I've rung the Claremont and they've said, oh yes, it's the conference erm you know amount and we're very,appar we were, I was very lucky cos we got the last three rooms. And she said, we're absolutely booked up! But, you see Bob told me about it, he said, well he, you know booked at the Claremont because he'd had problems getting prices out of the others. But, our union always stay at the Claremont and we've always found it, you know, okay. But I'm, I'm not paying sixty five quid a night! It's just stupid Francis! Cos you're never in it. I mean, you always go to you know, somewhere else don't you? I didn't ask Francis, so just let me tell you erm they were when I went, it's A, B, D, E, and it's got all the letters next to them. You know, they say there's a full range of facilities and I'm just looking A is central, bedroom, I'll tell you, I'll, I'll, I'll, we'll whiz through them. A is central heating, C is car parking, D is street car parking, E is special diets catered for, F, tea and coffee making facility, G is television in bedrooms at no extra charge I is for answering and J K, I've, I'm, just to go all through this, disabled facilities, L separate M bedrooms available with private telephones in, it's N, number of bedrooms available with private bathroom and toilet or shower and toilet. And that's what it says. It was, was when I went Francis. Night porter, Q is lifts to all floor, and S is swimming pool and I know there's a swimming pool because not that I ever used it, but ma it, it was when I booked Francis. It's right on the prom on the corner on, on North Prom. It's not far from the Imperial Francis. So but it was erm just go on that bit of the prom, it's huge! It's a huge hotel on the corner. You can't miss it. I'll, I'll give you the o the address anyway. Erm, two hundred and seventy North Prom. Yeah. Two seventy North Prom. Erm, and you just say what yeah, two seventy North Prom. It's, it's pa just past, if you keep going past the Pembroke it's there. But erm that's right, going out. Yes. It's just past there. You can't lose it Francis, cos it's one of the major hotels. Yeah. They've got, they've got lots of bars, there's a bar in the basement and there's bars upstairs, and a dance floor and a swimming pool and I'm sure it will Francis. I mean yeah, well I don't blame him. But it says number of bedrooms available with private bathroom and toilet, or shower and toilet. There are very few hotels of this standard that don't have showers and toilets. So it's twenty eight Francis, which is, I think is yes. Yes. Well, it doesn't matter where we go to eat does it? And we, can go and eat wherever we want. Oh! But th you can have bed and breakfast and evening meal if you want. Erm, but generally,ye I mean cos Eileen and I go to a we nearly always go somewhere like Carriages or you know, somewhere Italian which is, you know, it might, it all depends on what Jim's eating at the time. But, but you can't go wrong, there's plenty to eat in Blackpool can you? In fact, I'm trying to think of a place that erm we once went when we at regional conference, it was behind the Claremont somewhere. It was a it was a little Italian restaurant with about forty six and we went at regional conference and it was astounding! It was a really brilliant chef! I'll try and get Bob to find the the number of it. Cos that was really a really nice place. But, you wouldn't have expected to find it where you found it. No. You know the road behind the promenade? It was on that road. And we only found it by chance, you know how you go off to think oh I'll, I'll go and find a coffee or something, and we found this restaurant at lunch time and had a coffee there and we looked at the menu and, you know, we, we couldn't believe it! Yeah. Well I'll try, I'll try and get Bob to remember the name of it. Alright. And so I'll see you when we get there Francis. I said we'll a probably arrive early afternoon. So no doesn't well you know what he'll be like, he'll be messing about all day. But I know Kinnock's speaking at four isn't he? So we I want to Yeah. Yeah. Oh well he'll have to be then. Yeah. Yeah. That's alright. Don't worry. I'll, I'll look after . Because there's erm there's Geoff and Louise are staying with us, and Eileen and I are staying. You and Jim are staying. And I know that Bob and Sue have booked at the Claremont so there'll be quite a few of us there. So, I'll, I'll keep an eye on us. And I'll go and have a look at your room. Just to make sure everything's alright before he gets there. Right. Thanks Francis. See you Friday. Bye . I should have checked that shouldn't I? Well is a en suite. Yeah. I don't think it is gonna be en suite. Yeah. Well they said, the number of rooms didn't it? Didn't say all rooms. And if you've got the last three I can't believe that the last three are en suite. I only need one en suite. That's what I thought ! It'll be two rooms and a bath or a shower. Shall I ring back? I stayed at the Claremont when I was down doing and I can't remember where it is on the street . Well, I we were when I went John was. John but mind you, John has been insistent on it, he Mm. moved a whole delegation if it weren't en suite. Yeah. Well Bob will do me a swap if it's gonna come to a crisis. I think I'll ring Madge up. Cos it will cause a crisis Oh yeah. with Jim. Of course. I mean he's at the age of being incontinent int he? Call me regional . Is he introducing a conference now? John unwashed and unshaved on the front delegate, on the front. Yeah. Yeah. I'd er ring up just in case cos you might have to solve your problem. Better to knowing now than to know when you arrive there. Have they mended your photocopier yet? No. They won't be if you want to photocopy something. I might do. But we'll give them a ring now anyway. I need to get hold of Mayfair as well cos there's cigarettes out so Hello, it's Mrs here, I've just spoken to the other lady making a booking for three twin rooms. Can you just check whether they're en suite. They are? Oh brilliant! You've saved my life! Else my chairman was er, just gonna give . Oh! That's great! No problem. Thanks. Bye . Phew! Yeah. Better telephone so that she can be sure that when he asks the dreaded question that they are. Must remember I've got to talk to him about here. The answer is yes, they all are. Ah! Francis I had a little panic then, and I decided to ring them back . But, no yeah yeah well, I thought, I thought I'd better be safe, yeah. I don't want a weekend with Jim where I, I'm in trouble all weekend ! Oh don't Francis! I mean er, I'd, I'd never have lived it down. Yeah. Well that's what he'd say to me, why didn't find out first? So, anyway, you're reduced from,so it's en suite. Yeah. She said exactly Francis! Well we'll spend it on food and drink Francis. But erm er, I feel a lot more comfortable cos I think sixty five pounds a night's outrageous! For just spending well, for us, when we're just, you're only there for your breakfast aren't you? You never go back again. So because we'll be able to have lunch at British Home Stores. We'll not be able to break with tradition . Geoff will insist that we go to British Home Stores for, well we'll, if, if we we're with Geoff and Louise, that's where we generally go to lunch, and it's really nice! It's a lovely self-service in Blackpool . But you know the Labour Party is worse than the Conservatives for traditions aren't they? Mm. Anyway, look I'll find out from Bob about this restaurant and see if there's a possibility that it might be worth booking before I go. But I know that Jim's going to have to . And I I don't want to spend all night chasing round Blackpool looking for for a place that serves ordinary food of a decent standard. Right Francis. I'll leave on that note. Bye . Yeah, she does want to go. They don't want him trailing down th well we're in a next week. It would be a couple of days. I think it's . I want Mayfair as well. I want Mayfair to come. Filling the machine? Fill it up. It's empty, so Mayfair fills it up. You don't know where he is do you? Oh! Right. Okay. I'll try County Hall. Right. Thanks. Bye . What's it called Mains? Mains Business Services. It's here I think, but I'm not sure. Mains, Mains, Mains, Mains. Oh! They have been getting Ma Macs first don't they? For some unknown reason!. Well can I have the Labour group then please? You tell me why they has Mac before Mains. Mm. Right . L M, Main. H, I, J, K . Close. Sor if I sorted out being able to book at this restaurant which only is about I'd be in How many nights are you there, two? Two. Be in if, everybody's good books. Cos it really, it's really nice! We just found it by chance. You can't, can't It remember what it's called? I know! I just can't. Bob'll know. Well you probably, I mean you, you as, you as well, so I mean, you probably won't No he's be able to get there till this evening and you probably won't be able to see him will you? No. Well a as long as he knows I'm looking for him. They erm wa when we to we, we were staying at the Claremont and I don't, oh, I think we just decided we'd find a cup of coffee. It was M S F thing, we were with Margaret about the M S F. And said, oh, let's go and find a cup of coffee but, have a bit of a walk and walk down to conference but we'll not walk down the prom Mm. we'll walk down the road at the back and we'd only just turned round the corner from the Claremont and we found this restaurant and it was, it was an absolutely brilliant chef, really nice restaurant, really high quality and it was was quite reasonable price, it wasn't cheap. Mm. So, when we found this we thought ooh, this is alright! You know, we'll so we've been quite a few times since, but I cannot think of the name of it. You see, Jim doesn't like, I mean, we'd go to Carriages probably cos it's a a proper Italian Yeah. that absolutely reeks with garlic and all the rest of it. Well that means Jim will pull a face! Or he'll start going Oh, this big international financier! Oh! No! Not, I mean, is the, when it comes down to food wi he's a traditionalist. So we've always got to find somewhere to eat that's You're gonna be pushed getting, you know, roast beef and Yorkshire in Brussels aren't you? God knows! Steak and kidney pie! You're joking! Cos everybody sort of, just try to think, think of in Brussels. Why they go, they go to er a six course sort of have as much main course as you like. It's a a a re a really nice restaurant but you can pick all your food raw and they just, there's a chef cooking, and you just get one of these plates, you can have as many helpings as you want, they serve you a cold starter and a hot starter but there's a buffet that's about half the size of our club and one side of it it's all fish on a wet fish slab, and steak, and veal, and chicken and so there's every sort of meat you can think of, and you can pick a wooden platter full of it, so you go and give it the chef with this number that they give you and then they come serve you with whatever you want. And you can have as many helpings of whatever you want. And the salad stuff and fresh fruit and all that sort of thing, takes about the full length of our bar up you know, you, you couldn't think of a salad that isn't there. But you can't, and there's, then there's loads of hot veg. Mm. There's no vegetables you can't mention. I think it's about twenty quid a head, but you can actually have as many meals as you want, or as many puddings as you want. Yeah. It's it really is really very, very good. The Labour Party came to to use that quite a lot. Because they've got big seating areas as well, where they put, sort of eight tables together and all your party can sit together. Mm. When we were there Stan was with us and he'd been a few times to Brussels to with the Labour Party and, and he said oh it's great! Because usually you go off to a restaurant and if there's twenty of you you can't sit together can you? No. No. But, he said, this restaurant makes a particular thing of seating big parties. It was a brilliant restaurant! Really really nice. So you know Sergio's going to erm erm one, some Cubs visit to London at er half term. Baden Powell House? Yeah, but the Mary took it. It's brilliant! Absolutely great! And er, so she said she, she wants to take the last couple of days away Mm. so she's, her aunty's going to Dublin, so I got these things and they were really cheap actually. There's the train fare from here to Holyhead return, the ferry, transfers to their hotel the best hotel in Dublin, The Burlington Mm. is absolutely stupendous! Two nights bed and breakfast, full Irish breakfast, which means you won't need to eat until the evening ! You won't eat again. No. Erm train, free bus passes round Dublin, includes their bus fares and, and train on those sort of metro type thing Yeah. they have in Dublin all for eighty five quid! Eh? I know. Why? The only problem is, that the hotel that Mary's like, ah! This looks beautiful. Cos I, I, that second hotel,hotel, the only thing, is the Burlington. And I daren't, I'm not gonna tell her, but I, I, I'm trying to say, well, it's a little bit out, it's in a park and er,th th but it looks gorgeous! I said, yeah I know. And it was, where they had their honeymoon. So I'm going, oh no! Not for just er Siobhan, and sister-in-law, erm is the head of Town and Travel and, Manchester Yeah. Town and Travel, and she got the presidential suite at the Burlington which is like a, you know, I mean, erm, it's absolutely gorgeous! And it was, it was about two hundred pounds a night and got it for ten pounds a night. That was about, well, ten years ago, when well well it's really appropriate. So I think, well this is a, this is actually on O'Connell Street, that's right in the centre. But I mean, that's actually th th one, one of the, that was the, the, the other ones like four star hotels were on O'Connell Street which actually opens only seventy seven quid. I know. That's including all that travel and Yeah. and I mean, it's incredible though! Mm. And it's something like twenty quid for an extra night if you want to stay, the problem is the Holyhead ferries, they're dreadful! You know Yeah. one gets you in at seven fifteen which means you're only really getting one day Yeah. you know, for that price, cos Yeah. by the time you got in, checked in, got into the hotel, it's gonna be nine o'clock. Yeah. You've missed the day, and, you've got Saturday then,th ferry back is ten o'clock on the Mo or whatever day, but the ferry back is at ten o'clock in the morning so you've got to leave at eight o'clock. So you really need to go the day before. I mean, really, you've got to book an extra night to be honest. Mm. That's what I mean, you Yeah. Yeah. there's no point in you going No. for that, I mean, all you're doing is going on a ferry I mean if the fe if the ferries were like early sort of bo got you in at lunch time Mm. then that would be alright. And, and, that you could get say Yeah. Cos you'd have more in the following day. get say a late afternoon one back. Cos it's, and it's only about two and half . Has it got to be on the ferry has it? Yeah. Yeah. Cos it's part of the, that's why it's so cheap. Part of the hotel. Yeah. We need to phone Mayfair. Oh! . We need to phone Marion. I'll do it, it's alright. It's been an awful long time for this part hasn't it? Mm. I mean, it's been a month. Need to send away for it. Just shows the state of British industry. And the recession. It's foreign int it? Oh! That carpet's gotta be done ain't it? That carpet cleaner's coming. Don't bother about that, Eileen and I will do it. Yeah, but we need a new poster though. gave us a poster. Alright? Mm. One to come. No. He's only coming cos you Oh hi! It's Mrs here. Can you just tell, I can ask if my photocopier part's in? Thanks . They erm We need the sa spare part, when I, I mean we need the sort of anyway, what was Mm. happening don't we? And it's , and we also need to see them mend it properly. I think, we should go for . Red and blue square, that, you know . I can't, I can't say. No. I mean,we could the use the industrial . I don't know. And you could do that in the all the rest area, you could do it in the whole club to be honest. I think you should go for the blocks of colour. Mm. Cos, if you got a room, and you spill on it it wouldn't matter . Well, I was saying that yesterday to them. I said . Right. Oh God! Will he? Cos I'm, I'm getting desperate cos it's getting near the actual time. Righty-ho! Thanks. Speak to you later . They're gonna chase it up today, he's got quite a few orders outstanding with this company. Yeah, cos I mean, I were saying that yesterday, that, that little bit of damaged carpet in there because it's a carpet Mm. you've really gotta replace the whole bloody carpet haven't you? Mm. But yo you know, if you, you got the tile situation you just Mm. take a tile off and replace that. I think you should do the floor I think we ought to sort of lino. Yeah. Yeah. You know Er, well the bulk, the main floor lino, but the two raised areas and stairs in I think you've got to do it in, and I think you've got to do it in brilliant, er brilliant white. But get me Sa a shop. Yeah. Well phone Meg, Tomorrow afternoon. Tomorrow afternoon. Say, three o'clock? Oh yeah, she'll be here for half past one. We well, yeah. I mean, and you here, I want you here tomorrow too. Oh hello! It's Mrs at the . Is there a possibility of someone coming and filling the machine tomorrow afternoon? At three o'clock if possible. Well we'll be there, we'll be here till four. Yeah. Yeah, okay. Thanks. Bye . Which, which number of theirs? The shop. Er er well it just says Lunar Mills or after sa after hours sales office. Does it not give a name for the shop? Well give me Lunar Mills then? Yep! Right. Second time, I'm gonna have to come back. Yes of course I can. That's it, forty three. Bruerne's okay. Yeah, we got one actually. Yeah . You okay for till rolls? Right. Are we okay for till rolls? Yeah? Just, I think we are Barry, just have I haven't a look. Yeah. I said to him on erm su er sa Saturday night. Oh well, he said to me on Saturday he said do it Thursday after Yeah. I say, so I said, well I'll arrange for a delivery. But, having said that he's not the most reliable person in the world. Have you given Peter your order? Yeah. Oh. And does he have to be, I mean, are we not gonna be there most of the time? Yeah. Co yeah we are. Well, you are. I'll be back as soon as I can. Yeah. I mean, I can be back for well I mean, I can actually stay there in fact. Well, do you want the latest? Yeah. There's, there's Steve , Dave er, all the men's meeting at the hideaway Oh yeah. is now going to be at the . We think she should, might stand down gracefully, if she doesn't erm she, we could refuse to adopt, but she's over there personally. Erm, I'm in two minds about what to do. I could name names and say because this is not a party decision, it's Yeah. Dave , Steve , etcetera, and . Now, who's Dave ? Senior employee of the City Council Yeah. meeting with the leader of the Labour group who's supposedly doing all this to protect his wife. The reason he's married to her I mean, even . I could, I could really throw the dirt at them by saying that I'll, you know, if there is a conspiracy there's, a person here who's been involved in a very iffy part of the budget, who all of a sudden after ten years of slagging off the town clerk, all of a sudden he's totally on the town clerk's side, together with Councillor . Why? The only person who's involved in both, allowing the town clerk to take these decisions, without any interference at all Mm. and now conspiring with a senior employee of the council, and of course,. Just not so. Yeah. All of a sudden this erm worry about this budget heading, is being swept under the carpets and everybody being told is all in been er cleared up. It's Dave . I'd fire him. Mm. I could really make this into a very great conspiracy for . Mm. Apart from which, this meeting that they're supposed to be going to have is totally out of order anyway. Cos nobody's been sent any notices for it or notified about it. So I mean, I, I could What the hell are they doing now! get the full meeting cance I mean, you get Ashdown yesterday, his party rally round him like Mm. royalty's going of fashion! You get, I mean, Dave and Steve , alright, they've never been my favourite people but all this pious goings-on with Dave , how much he hates the town clerk, and whatever opportunity he could get he would Mm. take. Mm. First opportunity, real opportunity he gets he's doing everything the town clerk wants him to do. Yeah. I just, I, I, honestly Barry, I've got to the stage where I believe in this conspiracy . Mm. Well certainly some people want some answers want to be given on this budget, er me as well, I mean, he can't just suddenly say Well it's all been sorted out, don't worry about it. Well I think it will be really stupid. But I shall say Dave And how long ? Well I park I'll put er I'll drop you off. Cos I want to go home and , I've got to home cos I've I've a stack of paperwork on my table. I'm not gonna be able to set off much later on remember because There's no point in me getting Nope. I'll have to go up to shop to get some shopping cos there's nothing to eat in the house. So I'll have to do something . Alright Barry? I just wonder what on earth they're, they're playing at with ha, cha cha cha cha cha cha. You know, I just don't understand what they're playing but th you know They they can only be doing damage to th to the election chances I mean Well they they can't be achieving anything else! I mean saying things like a successor has already been identified. I mean it's just stupid! Cos the general view in Morecambe isn't what they say it is. Yeah, but it gives the impression there's a split group innit? Well, you give the impression of a a faction in the party, now I could, I could serve this faction quite easily to Mike who'd give me a lot of say if I said, you know,th the the plot thickens, you know, here's a town Yeah. hall employee Yeah. always an opponent of the town clerk also now erm trying to cause problems. Mm. I mean, that really does make the plot thicken doesn't it? Yeah. I mean, why was Dave being quoted for , what has it got to with Dave ? He's not an officer of the constitut he isn't a treasurer, he isn't secretary, he's, he's nothing as far the constituency's concerned. They, if they want any quotes why don't they go and see chairman, who's Terry? Yeah. I mean, this is them deliberately saying things to their friends and deliberately stirring it. They, oh! Because, I mean, I know where it's coming from, some of it's coming from Stanley , who, who thinks if I don't stand down it will damage Ruth's chances. That's not Ruth's own view of it. Well it, and I don't think with the News of the World round their necks they can afford to start playing silly people. Because I'm, you know, if they sa if they keep crossing me the way they are, quite frankly I'm you know, willing to make remarks myself. Although I don't want to do damaging things, but I don't see why I should be the person con cons constantly getting the flack from a group of people who were you know. Yeah. Who are genuinely trying to do damage to the party. So do you want me to call at the 's now? Yeah. There's, may as well. Well, don't know. Well it doesn't really matter, I'll, I'll be I mean, what, so I mean there's except for seeing Anne there's nothing more to do is there? Well except to start getting that rubbish cleared away. Well I can't put it away. Don't want a pile in the cellar when carpet delivery comes. No, but I pu put it next to the lift and as soon as Hughey comes put it outside and when I come back I'll take it away. No you won't cos I'm meeting Ellial at, at half three. Well I mean, I should be back for half past two. I mean, if you want to just put it in that dustbin place and we'll take it tomorrow. Mm. You know, the washing up machine and everything, all, all of that needs cleaning out, all behind the bar needs cleaning. We're giving people a very bad impression if we're opening tonight and nothing's been cleared up. I think I'll go for it Barry. I'll, I'll go and see where he is, and say, you know That washing up and everything wants doing before tonight so you, so if you're gonna say oh, we're open tonight and the place still looks like a pig stye! It ain't gonna give a very good impression. Well he's not gonna want to, he's not,sha I mean he's it's not a meeting to look around the place is it really? Well it is. That's what they're coming for. That's one of the things Richard is coming for, to look round. We'll come and have a good look round, I've never seen it. I mean, er, you know what that's to do with don't you? The repairs notice. Even if we only got all those old tickets and things into green bags and started cleaning that out it would it would look as though we're making some effort. Er, if I can get the and get him to come in reasonably soon, you know, I'll ring you and tell you whether he's in. If we could get him to come in reasonably quickly you could get all that stuff down and bagged up and we could get rid of it couldn't we? Which which tickets are you talking about? Well all the old tickets and stuff, I mean, alright Where? From where? In, the bottom office. Oh yeah. As well as all the junk that's in the cleaner's room, it all wants getting rid of. I mean, what's happening about these speakers then? I mean, is this supposed to be happening tonight or No. what's Well it's it's a trial. Go in then. Just stop if there's any mail. No there's nothing. Oh. Okay. I'll go and get in and get on with Alright. That's a master key for those . What do you want? Well I put that blue thing and it's fallen down. This? Over here? Yeah. And I say, Bernie's room. See if there's any rubbish er are those, are those worth keeping those? Yeah, these are alright. These are Yeah. a couple of them are okay. It's a full . Yeah. Full set. Yeah, that's what I thought, there's about three or four towels and few Makes it complicated. That's no good. That's no good is it? What about these ones? Aren't you gonna put these in it? The what? The doors over there? What doors? These. Is that a door? Yeah, in there as well. We'll stick that stick that in. Wanna stick that in or not? Yeah. Nothing else? Well that's a fire door is it? we'll have to take it off this. Yes. Sorry. Right, I'll try and get on with fixing that . Yeah. Er Did you see the match last night? No, I mean, I saw Well I never watched it myself. You know I didn't watch I heard the score, I heard the score after that and I never bloody watched it. Mm. I, I actually taped it and I was, I was watching a bit this morning before Jean came. Two one. Ah? No, that's a trestle table. Are you leaving that there? Yeah. Cos I, I wanna take those mikes out and take them. I mean, that's just a, a brief using a frame and re-cutting it. Yeah. Alright then? Oh! Ha ha ah ah! There's a lot of rubbish in here int there? Well stinks of it! I suppose I mean, this is the She didn't want that dumped last time. Didn't she? No. Well, well I thought, what the fuck is she supposed to do with them, ah? Well nothi well we're not anyway because we're not do using those lights any more so Well sure, then they can come down then. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, basically you wanna be quite ruthless and just get rid of Everything. everything that's going to be dumped, and we're not gonna use again. Ha ha. Yeah. Er and the same out the bottom office. Erm just get rid of everything, I mean, how many of these fluorescent tubes are used up? They must be all done or they wouldn't be down in the first place would they? I wouldn't have thought so. I mean why would any Th they have obviously been used. Yeah. That's right. So why are they taken down? Yeah. Repair some of the er the framework . Erm I'll go and get a rubbish bin. Yeah. We got plenty of those. That's er had it. We, have we got a mop behind the bar? No. D'ya want me to ? Yeah. Erm well I would. Yeah. Well we need this bar floor mopped anyway don't we? Yeah. It's sticky so I'll er, I'll leave it here at the moment. Have you found out how much Terry's ? Er, no we got it read yesterday, and, and zeroed up, so Jean got the till roll, I'll have a, I'll erm Eh? I've got to look at it today, I meant to have a look. Er, I'll er I'll do that later on. Right, what wha what we're doing, we've got erm Do you want rid of these then, yeah? Yeah. You what? We're gonna have to walk some of this down aren't we? Yeah. Erm What about the cellar? Do you wanna tidy that out, or are you just gonna leave the rubbish in it? Well we're not, taken all the rubbish. Have you? Yeah. Yeah. There's just that lot we sent down now, and er Where did that go? Er we took it er What about this one? Monday, Monday or Tuesday. Monday. What are they? Oh! They're over there. That looks quite useful that. I'll move that one we're gonna Ooh! we're gonna Americanize the club. How d'ya mean, Americanize it ? I'm gonna turn it into a ma an er American theme, like, you know a Harley Davidson bits of bike on th th on the walls and guitars and Why are they, are they putting some money up Yeah. to do that? Yeah. How much? About fifteen grand at the moment Phew! from one brewery. As much as that? Well,no non, unsecured loan written off against barrelage. But, but Jesus! what we've, what we've done is the said job where, where Who's doing that? Erm Whitbreads. Erm Mind you, it's not a lot of money for Whitbread. Well, yeah, from Whitbread. No that's right. I'll go into Wilsons for another fifteen. And put Budweiser on draught. Boddingtons. No,Wilso Wilsons do bitter don't they? Yeah. Boddingtons they do. Whitbread. Oh! Wilsons do Yeah. bitter, yeah. Erm We've had this before. Wilsons, Samuel, Sam Smith's erm it's, it's th you know, it's they've all brought each other up now so they can virtually get anything. Mm. But I'm, I'm re I'm, what I'm after is Budweiser on draught more than anything else. I'm gonna have Budweiser, J D you know, go Mm. American stuff. through the, yeah, I'm gonna Mhm. the thing is, you see, if we do it an American flavour I mean, people expect heavy rock music in an Mm. American bar don't they? Mm. I mean, you expect to be going in and listening to Bon Jovi and, and Free, and you know in the background don't you? You have . Yeah. Well I mean Put in jukeboxes. Yeah. I mean, you could be up with the fucking couldn't you? For Well that's, well, well, well, we're thinking of opening Just as a pub like. yeah, we're gonna open as a pub during the summer erm What about all these Barry? No, we'll keep those for su you never know. Yeah, okay. Put them in here? So we have and erm we're gonna open up the top bar, top bar and ripping up the carpet in the main room, and lino in the main floor right, in, in sort of Which one? probably blue The one? Yeah. And redoing the stage floor. And I'm carpeting I think I'll carpet tile Have you had a price on what it's gonna cost to put that down? Not that much, cos we're getting the lino off Pete you see, and get the discount off to do the, just for the lino Oh right! Yeah, course. and then make it Rhona's husband? Yeah. Ex-husband, yeah. Erm, and having a carpet tile because we can then do it red, white, and, not white, but red and blue you know. Yeah. And, if you Yeah. damage a tile, then you're only replacing a tile. And just sort of carpet the two top areas, two raised areas, and have the other, the rest of it as a sort of lino floor. Mm. So then, then it, allows to dance as well, and basically hardly anybody sits in that area until the club's full anyway Mm mm. so that they all go in the . Erm, going to somehow, at the moment we're thinking of well Jean'll wanna do it, but I'm I'm thinking of doing some kind of I mean, we're agreed on what we're gonna do, but it's how we do it, I want some ka er, some kind of grilling around the top, the cocktail bar area, so you can open it as a, as a bar, and it'll have a sort of atmosphere in itself, so we open that as a pub type of thing, you know. Oh right! Yeah, yeah, yeah. Leave the big screen on and that and we can put erm and get, you know, as I say, if you Do you you get, see if we can get hold of like, I mean you won't be able to get hold of a Wurlitzer because nowadays they're like gold dust, but you might be able to get hold of parts, you see. If you could just get hold of say, the rainbow Yeah. effect of a Wurli I mean, that's the beauty about it you, you'll never get hold of a Harley Davidson, but you might get hold of a petrol cap. Yeah. You know, or things Yeah. like that, you know Yeah. and you just bang those around the place. Er, a few handlebars and whatever else and, but, but but don't do it like the British bikers, do it like an American bar, so it can be cleaned and I mean it can look nice and Yeah. sparkling and fiftiesey, and lots of pictures and Not the dirty bloody smell and greasy . No, that's right, yeah. That's right. You see, and then if, if, if, if, if sort of people are, you know, holiday makers come in, and it's an American theme, they expect it. Mm. As I say, they expect I've got music, it's not gonna come as a shock to them. They've got You know, and it'll, and it'll have a sort of atmosphere I think. And, and it won't cost a lot to do, cos all you do instead of green, you'll paint that red and you've got the white pick out anyway, and a blue, seated blue carpet. I wondered what those fucking ! No, where am I gonna be able to get rid of this? I don't know. I think we'll have to, I think we've got to keep it cos I think it's part of the fixtures and fittings unfortunately. And I'm gonna do er, you know, lots of promotions and stuff promotions on that And then your promotions, yeah? Yeah. Yeah. We well what I think I'm gonna do is next Thur not this Thursday, we'll just have to live through this Thursday, but next Thursday, erm I'm gonna get get Stella back on, and I'm just gonna sell it as cost, whatever it is, sixty P a pint or whatever. ? Yeah. I mean, cos at the end of the day if you've got the, if you've got, if you can get er sixty people You'll two fifty to come in, I don't mind if I'm giving the booze away! And er, as long you got the . As long as you're not losing on it. Yeah. Well it doesn't matter does it? You know cos that's the only way we're gonna build Thursdays up. No That'll be gone then. Je Jean's is it? Right. Get rid of it. Oh no, maybe not. Jean's doing tonight. I thought it had gone off. Jean's doing tonight, and I'm doing Friday and Saturday. So er She's away int she? She's away. Yeah. Er but, you know, I, I'd, as I say, I think er and then if we just, if we can just pick up like the odd I mean, I've, I've had a long chat with Anne, we've had a long, erm meeting with Anne yesterday about it, and she's gonna start pushing cos you know, she's really done the Royal upstairs, it's Mm. a really beautiful room, but it only holds about forty, fifty people, what she's gonna do is push the weddings, but she's gonna, and say look, you can use this place For the reception. For any, any, anything bigger, you know, you've got Well for dancing. Yes. Yes. you've got forty people, you want somewhere bigger, then fine. Cos er, Mark last week said er, he'd been approached by a wedding to do a disco, he said well I can't it's a Saturday, and then he said well, you know, where are you having the reception, said well we're looking round at the moment. Mm. Well can't, he said look have a word, and he said to me, you know, do you mind if we do like eight till eleven o'clock as a wedding party Right, yeah. Well and then we just do the disco afterwards Anyone can stay on if they want can't they? That's right. So we just get them in, we open up our doors at ten o'clock. And I mean, I wanna change the ten o'clock opening, it's bloody silly is that! That's just bloody ridiculous that! I mean, we may as well come in at twenty to ten, and, and have twenty minutes of you know because, nine thirty you know. The only people you get in before nine thirty don't drink anyway do they? No. Just Well, we don't need to come in . They did last when did they come in last week? Is it Thursday they came in? Thursday. Yeah, they came in really early about four of them didn't they? Oh! We thought they were, yeah, and they fucking bought one drink between them! Yeah. That's right, yeah . That's right. Right. Well you won't want these ? Er, no I'll leave them. Leave that, but er Well,. What? Mhm. Right, I'll leave this . Should be alright there shouldn't it? Yeah, well you'll have to leave it anyway. It's the wrong size actually. Will I just dump this whole lot Yeah. ? Yeah. Then, and then you can shall I get a oh that's the other thing, I'm gonna get the toilets redone. I'm getting the toilets I don't know if we can dump this here. What are they? Oh, those. One of them things for the plant or for the Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Oh. What I'm gonna do is get the toilets, I'm gonna get the toilets, the gents toilets, all the urinals ripped out and getting it troughed all the way around Yeah. that L though and that's why But before I got, I er, I suggested that fucking years ago! I know. We well we did, we looked at it when we first opened but it was like another grand to do that. Is it? Yeah. Is that what it's gonna cost? Nine hundred quid to just, just for the troughing. Well, so you gotta be fucking right, you, you must be paying nine hundred pound out No. every fucking three months That's right. and all! That's right. Well you pa yeah you certainly pay nine hundred pound a year out anyway, damage to the toilet seat and so you know, that'll pay itself back in a year and, you know. And also, it's just the hassle . Yeah. And there's, er, I mean it was showing somebody round the other day and we were talking about it and, and erm they're saying, yeah I mean, you've got seven urinals there, so let's say you have a busy night, you're full, I mean that's when damage gets done when people Mhm. are sat around waiting Mm. Mm. you know, and they're and sat on sinks and whatever else, so you know, you could, you could get twenty guys on that urinal that you can get for seven. Erm well I'm obviously going on yeah, let's just I was saying just dump it all. And er ah these . Right, I've just gotta phone Alan upstairs so Okay. a couple of things. He's looking at doing a me he's doing a menu of stuff for us so er will that go in, that'll go in the lift won't it? Maybe. Yeah it would. Yeah it will. Poor old Ossie Ardilles, eh? Mm? Poor old Ossie Ardilles! Bloody great innit? You know, I mean A vote of confidence and gone Yeah. the next fucking day! I know. I mean you'd really, you really need that don't you? Hey! It's getting a bit wild in Belfast. Well that's what this, I know, it's getting a bit, Jesus! That's A bit wild in Belfast innit? as well innit? Yeah. Well the last three days innit? I mean it's just if you're lucky. Yeah. Ah, like okay, and I suppose Sinn Fein is fair fucking game like, you know but the, not fucking innocent! Jesus! When they and er, and there's the U B S that always do that kind of thing. I know. Like, er the I R A, they're mucking about with it, but it's us they usually fucking like it's it's not just because of promises either, you know, not generally. No. Well no, I mean,a tha even tha that one the other day with the eight workers I mean it Yeah but they were we like they shot Catholics Yeah. as well! That's right . Yeah I know. Yeah. I mean they don't ask your religion when they go No. into action do they? No. But er I mean, it must be wild. It's completely out of hand! Yeah. Completely now. I know. It's fucking Hey! They're opening and Belfast ferry again. Passenger. When? This summer. Ah! You're joking? This summer. No. I'll be fucking back and forward every couple of days ! It's er it's a long one What are they gonna be charging? sa I don't know. I I'm It's an eight hour crossing, I know that. Ten hours, they've got it averaged at ten hours. Oh! Fucking hell! It's a long time. It's two o'clock sailing so you get in at midnight. What is it only ? Are they gonna be doing decent ferries So like like? With your tables Oh yeah. Yeah. It's gonna be a proper ferry. It's gonna be a proper passenger car ferry. Well didn't, didn't you travel on the er other not so long ago? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. How long was that? How long was the ferry? That was about eight hours. Yeah. But it takes a bit quicker, yeah, yeah. But it's a car one. Erm i but surely it's a,i it's an awkward in a sense it's two o it's great, it's alright this end it's two o'clock sailing from here, but I mean that means Two in the morning? No. Two in the afternoon. That means you're getting in It used to be midnight. that means you're getting in at midnight into Yeah. Belfast, which is Mm. a bit of a pain. Well it's not it really depends on how far away you are. Well it used to, it used to be midnight. It used to sail at midnight which was handy for connections when you stay there. But I mean, you know but o okay you've got But you obviously need someone another two or three hours on a journey You don't wanna be hanging around Belfast do you? No. Well you've got another two or three hours on the journey, but having said tha well if you get picked up at the other end it's not too bad. Two or three hours on the journey, but on, having said that you got in time for the train fare, the and the Mm mm. dis I mean, it's a bloody long time that train innit? Or else if you're driving up to Stranraer it's a, it's a good three and half hours' drive plus your petrol. Yeah, you sa you've got enough chopping and fucking changing like, it was fucking nightmare with them kids going to Yeah. Stranraer! Well that's right. Changing the like up here, changing at Lancaster, changing at Carlisle, then changing at Glasgow. Well I've never had to do that. I've normally caught a train that's gone thro straight through, there used to wo I don't know whether there still is but there always used to be one. But even so, I mean I took a, like a two or three year old on it and I mean it is it's a nightmare! You know, you can't amuse them at that ta er can you? You know, they wanna not for that, that you know, a couple of hours you keep a kid amused by well a Ha! you know after that they Ha! they wanna run around. All five of them. Come here! Yeah. Come here! So er that's it. So I mean you'll be there won't you? Got er I just picked up er Mary once going to Dublin. Ser Sergio's in erm London at half term with the Cubs for about four days, I said do you fancy a sort of two or three day break, said one of these short breaks? Yeah. She said I'm off to Dublin. So I don't think really, really train from Morecambe to Holyhead return. We were gonna, er we were thinking about going up there. Lancaster, Morecambe to Holyhead return Holyhead to Dub Dublin, the ferry Your ferry . Yeah, you get the Right. return. Centre. Yeah. Two nights bed and breakfast in the Burlington, or one of the other four star ones. I mean, they're good quality. We've been in the Burlington years ago and it was like Ah! We've been in the Burlington in Dublin, it's gorgeous! Yeah. like hundred quid a night ten Yeah. years ago. Erm transfer from the ferry to the hotel and back again free bus tickets, free rail tickets in, in Dublin area. To travel for the weekend? Yeah. Right. Eighty seven quid. You're joking! No. Oh! Fucking hell! Good that innit? Cos a full Irish hotel breakfast, you don't need lunch do you? You know. You're joking! No. How did you manage that? Oh no they're, no they're, they're in the brochure. Yeah. brochure. Fucking hell! I get, I go for but I think it was gonna cost about eighty five to travel that way. Yeah. Very good that. Sixty seven last time I went over there. And if you want to stay an extra day it's about twenty quid extra. Fucking brilliant! Yeah. Jesus! Yeah. I like that. So you just so, to get, actually you do need to stay the extra day cos it, cos th the sailings from Holyhead and get, yeah To make it worth your while. Yeah. the sailings from Holyhead get you in at seven Well even at that price for only hundred and seven pound. Yeah. That's right. Hundred,hundr hundred and seven quid for erm and you get a complete Saturday and Sunday then. Yeah. So you arrive Friday night at night, seven thirty so by the time you got your hotel and checked in, da da da, it's nine o'clock at night. Well if you did i if you only did the two nights you'd be co and the sailing is on Yeah. Yeah. the sailing's first thing on So like, you've only got a day and a half haven't you? That's right. Well you haven't even got that cos the sailing's ten o'clock on the Sunday morning. That's right. Yeah. So you've only really got Saturday so, if you took the extra night, and then you've got a ten o'clock sailing Mon you're back in Lancaster For twenty quid like you Yeah. can take off that weekend . Yeah. Exactly. Not in a, not in a prop you know a bed and breakfast in a Well four star hotel. Four star hotel. I mean they're good hotels those. Cos as I say, I stayed in the Burlington. I'm trying to talk Mary out of Burlington that's all cos that's where I had my honeymoon. She doesn't she doesn't I ha you know I, I Oh God! I said well she said, it looks lovely this. I said, well it is, yes, I mean this is a really, this is more central, cos there's one on O'Connell Street you know, so you're right in the middle then Yeah. aren't you? I mean the Burlington's a little bit out. So then she said I'll make her go up there. go up to the Currane. I'm going, oh God! That's where I got marri married. Well I Did you? Yeah. I got married in Newbridge just a a little village on the Currane. Currane. So er Oh God! The things you'll do for a cheap holiday ! Yeah, sure. You wrapping these up as well then? Yep. Good. That's unbelievable that It is a great price innit? But like er If you,i i they, they got the brochures in A T Mays. A T Mays? Yeah. Er you know But anyway, my Dawn, Dawn's mother went down to see a show in London not so long ago, stayed er, stayed two nights in a hotel, it was o it was only like ninety odd pound for them. Yeah. That's right. Well er, there's erm There's some brilliant short breaks now. Oh I know. Well, there's, there's er there's one that Mary's lad took his girlfriend on, er two nights London Hilton and train fare thirty nine quid. London Hilton! No so no I think it, no sorry, sorry, not it's not, it's two days one night. Sorry, it's one night. Well if, you're gonna pay a hundred and fifty a night Oh yeah. up in them That's right. Oh yeah. I mean, but your train fare alone will cost you, it'll cost you thirty quid. Course. Yeah. Yeah. You know when we, we, when we first opened from a dead start right? The first fifty five weeks which is Just over a year. a year we did na on the bar did ninety thousand quid. Jesus! The next five months less than half a year af the next five months after that right? When Jean stopped doing her silly things? Yeah. Well, yeah, when whe er er a after that first year the next five months seventy nine thousand! Fucking hell! In five months. So if we'd have carried on at that So you would have like, you would have well doubled that. Yeah. I mean tha th we, it, have been Five months you would have equalled . Well I think we'd have gone to two hundred thousand. Yeah. But that, at the end of that period was when Volks recalled the loan. Aye. And And you were buying seventy off them or something? Yeah. But er, but when You were getting all your orders from them at that time? Yeah. But when Volks recalled the loan we sort of give up. Yeah. I, we went two day week opening and not publicizing it, everything. Yeah. So if we'd have just carried on the way that was going, I mean, that got it from ninety thousand in just over a year to, to seventy nine thousand in five months. Jesus! It's amazing! Know what I mean, like we didn't want Surely they've saw the trend? Well You did show them? I think No Barry don't I don't you're not fucking doing nothing ! Cost you a fortune that stuff. Yeah. Right. That one . Looks like a motorbike handlebars you can stick it on the wall. What about this milk, milk machine? No, bung it. Whoops. Over there. Look at all that shit there! What on earth's that? That's one of the shamp er carpet shampoos. It's probably when Jean bought it. Right. Well I'll leave it here. Er Probably cost a fortune . No. Wanna dump it? Yeah. I mean I'm, yeah you know, we're just gonna make a fresh start in here, we've zeroed all the tills for last week and everything so Jim's er, that's locked. Don't wanna keep this? No? Erm Nor this one? Er, yeah alright. Well I'll just get That one. I'll find a box for these little Yeah. bits and pieces here. Yeah. Yeah. That's one or two of Kerry's is it? Yeah. They can go as well. We've got enough mop heads brush heads rather, we just haven't got any, not connected to the brushes. Will that go in the bin? We might as well carry it down. Er I'm sure none of this, this lot Well no, just make, I'll just make a way through that's all I want. Can you sort of give it a sweep ? Yeah. Is Anne putting those out? Is she what? Putting those out? Yeah, there were some last week, everything's there. Oh was there? I was trying to kill the then? You did them? Yeah. Oh God! I found the keys as well. That's what I'm saying we've still got that massive box of keys that goes in there Well I did that we had from the day we opened and we've never found them! You used to be a whole sack of them! Yeah. And we've never found where they're fitted. Will we keep this? Er may as well. Mind you, I don't know we got oh yeah keep it I suppose. Might just miss it. Want it mopped over in the morning. What's that? What's that for? What's that? Polyester filling. They're teddy bears by the looks of it. Flame retardant oh! They're, they're the seats. They're all the seats. Mm. That's probably use that for Yeah. I think you've destroyed it now haven't you? What's this bit? Yeah, if we give this a sweep out and that. And hoo hoover that little area there where all that, I tipped Yeah. all that rubbish because it's I mean the hoover's I'll mop, brush it. knackered anyway. It needs I'll brush it with the Yeah. Could just leave tha lay those bowls over there. For what? The sweets. Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah, good idea. Probably get, less chance of getting broken out there. What's happened ? Yeah. That, over there. Have we got any screwdrivers around? I dunno. Probably. I think there's one on the . Not much good. I suppose we could put that door back on again inside. Yeah. Oh wait! I'm gonna fix that, no do I'll, yeah I'll bring some from home cos I wan I wanna nip home for er an hour and I'll er I've just seen Anne. What are you doing with these for? Erm American stuff for Mm. Yeah. I'm gonna do like chillies and whatever, you know. She, she can re do them and we just have, microwave them when, as and when. Ah. I need somebody in to do that. The bar staff could do that like. Ye oh yeah. Could they? I think Yeah. just get them all you can get them for them. Yeah. Have them fucking ready made up and just Cos move them out. Cos even Simple! even ri I mean rice does really well in a microwave. Well you can have them in the freezer. You can freeze rice and then put it straight in the microwave. Yeah. Just, just to sprinkle on water on them. Just seal them up with a fuck it's called? That cling film stuff. Yeah. Right. I've just snapped the screwdriver! I bet you it's an ordinary screwdriver. No. No, it's a my word! Don't touch them things grease on it. Shit! Why is it cleaner's rooms always end up like this? Dirtiest room in the whole Yeah. See this was, this was the dance floor before Yeah. er, where it follows this line. Yeah. And it was a sort of funny shaped thing. Yeah. Just to here. And it was like, nothing, so we just extended all this out and made it into a stage come, a bigger dance floor cos the I don't know why they wa always seem to have this trends that, they have these trends in the seventies and that was, and eighties of having small dance floors Right tiny dance floors, yeah. Right, that's and the disco console was open to the public so the public could just wander in and tap the D J on the back and tu change his records for him or whatever. It's a stupid opera so we've fenced that in. Erm but this is the area up here Anne, that I was sort of thinking that we could if we can, some kind of trellis or something around this raised area here you could actually open this bit as the, as a pub on a With what? Sorry! as a sort of pub, you know, on a Saturday and Sunday in the season. Food and that. You know, and with a big screen you can have like sport or Grandstand or Right. ro music videos or whatever you wanna do. Get satellite in and get M T V on. Mind you, the satellite's gonna cost three hundred quid! Roughly. This is like cocktail bar bit Yeah. isn't it? Yeah. I mean, change all the, paint o pa paint all the, change all the green to sort of red Green shouldn't be up anyway. Yeah. Red, and then you got the white pick out Yeah. and you got the blue seats, so you've got red, white and blue haven't you? Yeah. They aren't cheap chairs these either Yeah. are they? Oh no. Nothing was cheap, I mean No I wouldn't have thought it was. the seats are good, you know, these tables are bloody heavy! And they've done a you know, they did a good job when they built it. Erm I mean, you can see what he, what he intended doing was the plans were beautiful! This was gonna be there's a piano there on that Mm. raised area there, so this was like a piano bar Yeah. there was gonna be a big fountain in the middle there Yeah. this wasn't gonna be disco No. a big fountain in the middle there Yeah. and an orange grow Yeah. type affect, it was gonna be called the ora this was the blue one, so that was the orange Yeah. purple, whatever. The bar was a double-sided open Bar across that other side? Yeah. Great! And the other side Yeah. which was gonna be a big glassed disco Yeah. in there, and that was gonna be the disco, and this was the, you know, I mean it was a good idea, I don't know why he pulled out with went half-cock. Erm you know. True. These are the things we were talking about yesterday these uprights. I mean they just Erm open for well you could shorten them anyway. Yeah. You could just shorten them And I mean they're very sort of vandal easy or whatever. Vandal a fa er vandal friendly hooligan friendly aren't they? Yeah. Whatever! You know, I mean we just got them cheap erm lampshades from now on er cos it's not worth it cos th the expensive ones are just getting damaged all the time. We could shorten them anyway and just put lamps on them. Yeah. Whatever. If you don't hang them on Gerry's thingy anyway. No you don't. That's right. See, if you sort of somehow trellis that area, that side in you could actually have this mo more intimate if people just wanted to Snog! sit in here. Yeah. Yeah. If you got, you know, if you got a character behind the bar could er attract people by his own force of personality. I think erm you could but you know, really then you think when Mm. they come in we can start Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah it is. Cos I wouldn't lo I mean I actually don't think you can do, if you're gonna do people are gonna eat I th I think you're gonna be pushed at more than about hundred and fifty to two hundred. You know, depends on how you retail it first but I think it depends which it, what you Yeah. do. Yeah. Erm I mean, it depends a as you say, er yeah I mean it does depend that. Cos if, if you, if you, if you wanted to you could always utilize all the dance floor area tables and things, you know. If you had that kind of function that you you know Mm. Makes it difficult to do a big functions though in here with that stage. Oh yeah. You know, to set out Yeah. you co there's no way Yeah it does. you can set out for two hundred. No. No. What we did do And so very well Yeah. erm we were we some of the jazz stuff, I mean Yeah. it it, it never worked in a sense that it wasn't commercially viable No. but things like Kenny Ball and that we'd had Yeah. and we had like the ta trestle tables in all these alcoves and people came and actually booked a meal Yeah. and, and, you had a meal and sat and watched the band and everything. It wor i I mean for those it did work Different sort of like it did work. Yeah. Just But need the you can see everywhere. And it did Put hot food Yeah. up at the back as well there. Mm. Have you actually ever seen round this place properly? Not properly. No I haven't really. Whe whe where do you get to that round, round No. part? No, you can't that's one of the do you wanna sta I'll just go and get the key so you can have a Yeah, go on. quick look in there. I'll go up there. Get your bearings. Yeah. It actually looks bigger looking that way than it does when you're up there looking back, I think. Erm I'm thinking of atmosphere. But if we if we carpet the two raised areas in a sort of attract hardwearing linoey type affect on there cos you can What about the slipping? you can dance. Well you get The carpet, don't it really up here? No. Well i it's been down since it opened so that's Oh! gotta be eight or nine years. Mm! It's done well then. It's done well. It was on Yeah. concrete Yeah. like. Oh right. So this is just, this is just virtually there, you can't get through that way anywhere? No you can't, no. Oh. Right. Like, so it's sort of self-contained in one Yeah. sense. Er Right. So it'll have to be that one in there. And Oh! So right. Right. When Trish had a do in here, her fortieth she let A what? er Trish had her fortieth birthday here. She laid there's a tremendous amount of wasted space here really. There is! Erm Ah! This stage across. Yeah. She laid out in here and people just wandered in off the back end here. Yeah. But I mean we've always wanted to utilize this but we can't really we built that wall here and it's just a this is the back of the disco. I mean al it's all, none of it's sort of Determined wall. determined walls, I mean, it's no no wall there at all. I mean we put this up just Yeah. to break that Yeah. because this is the console bar. Is that Cola? It's for it's for the cellar, yeah. This is nice and big innit? Well it's not, I mean Should think they've had quite a few . Not bad. Oh yeah! Mm. Obviously you've got a better eye tha than I have, but er You wa er what you want in here is one tha is tha is what's e what's extraction like? Is it good? Fine. You want a chair for over here for doing Yeah. American stuff. Yeah, you do, yeah. Do kebabs and everything. Yeah. We've got erm somewhere, a pizza oven. Oh! You, have you got a Yeah. pizza oven? Yeah. Yeah. Right. So that's alright. I've enough afternoons . Well, you won't need to do that now. It's somewhere anyway, we've got Jesus wept! pizza oven. What is it? Ice making machine. What's that, a dishwasher? Glass washer, yeah. Glass washer, I meant. We've got er Have you got one behind bar? No. There's not. There int one behind the bar? No. Oh out in garden. Oh right! I see. So basically they've gotta just tray it up What you want is tray it up here and then yeah, here and then bang it straight in. Erm Why's your bar so high? I can't reach your pump . Yeah. Have you? We like to keep the floor nice and sticky so the staff can't run away! Oh I see. Once they're behind here they're stuck all night. Think you got some cleaning, you just want that back in. Mm. You know what I mean, it's got . And all that up there. Mm! Now then, so you'd carpet them two Yeah. and then summat washed Well you see, hardly anybody ever sa they don't really sit in this area, all they do is er, I mean, they only sit Around the bar. right at the end of the, you know Yeah. when it's full they'll sit on those two tables. You were going to clear that area anyway, don't they? Yeah. I mean, everybody round here just stands or sits on those bar stools. Mm. Yeah. When people first come in they go for the raised areas and sit down. O You have to see. or they stand at the bar. It's, and, and if you actually look on the actual area we're talking about, there's only one, two, three, four, there's only about half a dozen tables. Yeah. Which is, you know, at maximum you're gonna get twenty four people sat around there anyway. So I think, in a way, it's erm a bit wasted carpeting it all. Cos it's a big area I do. to carpet. One, two, three I mean the quotes we had ranged from sort of Well you,wo did you look to change the carpet eighteen to twenty seven. because of the name on it? Well yeah, and You are? and it's getting past it to be honest. I mean, these metal strips are down there for the public entertainment license, they weren't gonna give us it because the carpet was lifting. Yeah. So I mean, not, weren't gonna give us it, but we had to do it for Yeah. you know, at the time. Yeah. And you can see like like there can you see straight in front of you there's a worn patch on the carpet, but there's er been a li a bit of a leak at some stage. Oh right, I see. There's one there. I mean Yeah. if you've got it carpeted, once you got that you, you're you're stuck aren't you? You know Yeah. you've either got I mean, we've either gotta put a table on top of it or Yeah, that's it, or sit on there or get Yeah. somebody to stand with it you know. Yes. Erm or replace the whole damn carpet. I mean the carpet must have cost a fortune ! Bloody hell! It must, it must have been absolute arm and a leg. Mm. Absolute arm and a leg. Er But it it's not a bad size room in the sense that No it int, no, it's, it is in the sense that you can get three hundred in Mm. well we often get four hundred in if you're you know, I mean, just have the right Mm. party erm How many you licensed for? Three hundred. Three. But, you can get but a hundred people can have a decent atmosphere as well. Mm. You know, it Well that, that's good you see Yeah. cos I mean some places that are fairly big th the, if you've got hundred in they just, it looks empty don't it? No that's right. That's right. I mean Erm that's the Carlton's problem innit? You know, if it, unless it gets Ooh! God! Yeah. unless he's got five hundred in yo yo you feel as if you're in a barn aircraft hanger. Well that's right. Mm. But the sort of chromea and all that sort of lends itself to one of them aircraft things doesn't Yeah. it? Yeah. It does. It does, yeah. So you wouldn't have to spend a fortune on, on, on I mean it's only a matter of most of it's a matter of paint, and then hanging a few things up isn't it? Change the atmosphere. Well er, yeah well it is, but I think cos one, you've got to look at, oh a bit of a design as well a while you're at it you might as well just get one or two bits Oh yeah. Yeah. you know Yeah, yeah. True. Erm oh yeah. One, two it's alright, I'm trying to think. if you're gonna make all this into a dance floor and all the rest of it what's the be a er er er benefit of having a stage? If all this is virtually gonna be it's virtually gonna be dance floor int it really? Mm. Well there is no benefit. Cos if you didn't have that it'd make this room more viable in as much as erm, the point of view of doing doing catering and, functions and all the rest of it. You can't, you couldn't say right we'll do a function for hundred and fifty and two hundred, and really to do, you've got to be looking to do a, a sit down function for two hundred Right. if you, because it's more than the Headway can do Yeah. comfortably. And it's more than er, and you can certainly do a better job than the Carlton so I mean, you don't call, I mean, you don't call him any competition at all I don't but, you've got to look at being able to do functions for two hundred. Mm. Well two hundred is lost in the Carlton anyway int it? Well it is, but having, yeah but with their Are you talking about the Carlton or the Carlton Rooms? I'm talking about the Carlton. Right. Not Chelstons. Not Chelstons, right. The Carlton up Right. here. Yeah. It, really and truthfully, like the Headway do plenty of functions and the rest of it but you can do a better job than Headway. Mm. No two ways about,wi it in a min in a . But if you can do, if, if you can do a two hundred thing for sit down you're gonna be in among the functions. Mm. Definitely. Plus the fact like you sa er like I say, if you're gonna have a dance floor in here there int any benefit about having the raised area is there? No, that's very true. And er, and it, it it makes a lot of difference actually. I would have thought so. Mm. I mean, cos the bands can still set up can't they? Oh yeah. If they sit up here Well you can do what, yeah. Yeah. But they still sit up there and they can still see them. Mm. And it's makes it a it makes it a different space, totally different. Mm. And like I say, if you're gonna carpet it er not carpet it, you're gonna cover it you might as well cover it totally. Oh yeah. Well I wonder what you'd use though? You ca you're gonna, you're gonna cover it, I mean we've got to re You've gotta cover that anyway. we've got to re-cover that That's what stage anyway. So you're not so all you're So doing is taking that out, but Yeah. surely in a lot of ways it might makes all the difference Barry. Mm. Makes it and it makes in a way so that it, it's not a Well you can create a dance floor area with tables and chairs. Yeah, course you can. All you do is just put them round there. Just put them round. I mean that's all we did in the Sugar House Well that's terrific! they've got er actual flat floors. Get rid of all that and you have got more table area because i they can sort of sit in th in the, the Yeah. gangway Yeah. you know, so I think, I think that would it's alright I just keep freezing up. Do you wanna sit in there rather than No my, I'm better stood here. Oh. No I'm better stood here. But I've got to I do this you know, I just sit and look. Mm. Oh no, I don't stand a lot. Well that's but I've, I've got to er, so I think definitely that wants to come out. Erm and er Because, I mean, if you ever got anything you really need a little, you could always bring a little stage in. Well Yeah. Staging's no problem is No. it? No. You know I mean now we need erm alright we're gonna, we'll keep these mirrors and everything. Them mirror tiles and everything. I should think so. They cost us a fortune! Cos I mean them marked . I nearly ca what they call it? Aren't they? Mm. Called the . Er, it's just that re-seating that just on that middle one actually, that's bad int it? Mm. Well I've,yo you need to redo the, the fixed seating. I mean, some of it o you'll get away with, but generally you re you need to recover it, it's going all over the place and it What if you could get something with stars and stripes on? Mm. Yes, but it's dirt on it. The trouble with the American red, it's a, it's, it's not a maroon it's a No, it's bright pillar box type Mm. red innit? Yes. You know it's Oh my God! You don't want to So if anybody, if anybody spills anything on it or whatever Mm. it's gonna show like a . Yeah. Well that's one's left, cos that one, well it's better than green when it's down isn't it? Mm. But I thi I know that sort of creates that atmosphere there but I think erm sorry! Go on. Get them lamps down, I think. Cos I mean,yo you can easily chop them off and put summat else smaller on can't you with lamps on? Mm. If you want to create that sort of an atmosphere. Are we there int a door is there from kitchen to there? Well it's There's just a hatch which is alright Yeah. because then well that'll just do service from there, but the only trouble about that is that . Anyway, not to worry. Alright. Round again then. Nay problem. I mean, if you've got a function you haven't got that much of bar trade No, but in the sense that No. being busy have you? No. You know. No. No. And is erm yeah I think that'd make all the difference if that comes out. You can soon redo the D J's little er Oh yeah. No, I think you'd leave the D J's Oh yeah, but I mean you can soon sort of make it so that it's er Oh yeah, well Jean keeps buying it's extended. Jean keeps,Jean keeps buying these this atrocious cheap wallpaper and sticking it everywhere ! Oh my God! Look at that ! Well yeah, it looks erm you can put same thing up, but properly. Oh yeah. Yeah. Erm that's that Well on that you could do something stars and stripesey all round there couldn't you? Yeah you could. Yeah. Yeah. No problem. Sort of have it all over Who is it's gonna come and see me on Monday? Er Websters? Wilsons? Woodbinder? Yeah. Yeah. Erm throwing money about a bit. You don't wanna throw about. Anyway, it, it, it, it, it's just they're gonna, gonna come and see me, gonna bring me a list of what they have. The Right. and all that. Oh right. Yeah. Erm they do erm, I'll tell you what they do. They've got they do Woodbinder obviously. Yeah. They put the new, new . Woodbinder long neck or summat in bottles. Mm. Wish I could find my glasses she said. Right! Ca er er Miller Lite,Kor or summat Yeah. Kronenburg wha Sixteen Sixty Four. Mm. Carlsberg and Carlsb o is it export, that Yeah. strong stuff? Hoffmeister Holsten and Holsten Export, er, Michelob tha but, he's gonna bring me a Mm. Tiger Right. beer or summat. Oh yes, I've heard of that. Yeah. They do, they Well Co , Miller and Bud are all American beer. Yeah. Well that's what he said. Erm but they John Smith range as well you see. Yeah. Cos that's Miller Lite int it? Erm so he's coming on, he's coming for his, he's bringing the on Monday. Nice lad him. Yeah. Really nice lad. So erm I went to, where is it you said? Couldn't find one American cookery book. Well that int true, I could find one and it were twenty seven pounds fifty so I left it was, full of pretty pictures! Isn't that a lot? Yeah. But I found some barbecue recipes and all that that'd be good. Yeah, I mean, the other thing on, on American of course, is you can do all that Cajun stuff can't you? Yeah, that's, that's, yes, that's what I wanna And New Orleans area, you know. that's what I thought because I've got erm I've got a somewhere, I've got four hundred and some cookery book! Oh. I've never been interested in American stuff. Well Cajun stuff and all that I thought, and then there's them you can do some long kebabs and all that, that's why if we get one of them charcoal grills that you can pa shoo,shee shoo . You know, not er all easy. And, and if you're gonna do burgers we'll do proper burgers, you know not . But you can do like, you can do vegetarian burgers and all sorts. So erm is that paper up there? Yeah. Look erm could do with being , having a doorway across back of here couldn't they? Oh! I don't know though bu er, opening and shutting doors don't appeal to me when you . No. No. True. Looks nice but Yeah I mean this looks almost like a school but I mean Well, no, well, I thi but I think some, some you're better with two shelves really. In, in a way for for quick, quick Well nowadays, nowadays everybody wants two drinks anyway don't Yeah. they? I mean it's not like No, but, but it used to be a Yeah. everybody wanted warm When you think about if you just serving two or three hundred to keep opening and shutting bloody cupboard doors, erm, fridge doors, it's no good. Chill's best, I think anyway. Mm. So erm so, yeah, right, I've got oh! Yeah, I thi yeah I think you're right actually. You need to get rid of that and it's and create a dance floor Yeah, create what, and what I'd do is I'd put a few more spots in Yes. no, those spots around Yeah. there shining on the Yeah. floor, put some round the back so Yeah. you actually just use Yeah. see, but I er, I think creative use of spotlights is better than, than specialized lighting effects, which A, cost a fortune, but B And you get out of as soon as you've seen them they're out of date. Well that's it. That's right. Cos they're only effective one time, that's the first time you see them. , yeah. After that, it's And we don't want to fork, I mean, No. No. So erm I mean you can just use coloured spots it in, I mean, those at the moment are just literally stage spots, all they are i are on, and on dim Oh right. Yeah. then you can dim them up or whatever Yeah, I have them but they can't flash No. so what we need is a small unit in there and, and, I mean, it's only two or three hundred quid er, and a few erm Most places where erm, you know they've got them in that, where you go to Yeah. you can pick stuff up for next to nowt. Just have it ready- made, say you want it for Yeah. Well, marvellous! But I think er er yeah I think that's definite, take that out, it really, it really would make the difference to erm Yeah it would, actually, thinking about it. Would, it'd make it it'd make it well, it'd just transform it, I mean, just no two ways about it, I think. You've got that erm what time's that chap coming, half past three? Yeah. Well I think er is this, alright if I look in here or Yeah, course. I'll just get my erm Yeah, I mean i it's keep on walking round till you get familiar with it. Yeah, well that, I mean, I just, yeah, cos I need In to in there is staff toilets and your spirit store. Oh. Yeah, where's thingy? Food store in here. Where, where And it's locked. yeah, but where's erm Cellar? Yeah. Down below the bottom. Yeah. Right down, and how, do you have to go outside to get to it? That's a bit silly! It's a pain in the neck! But it's er Well that's how it is at the minute innit? So But, now, Volks actually looked at erm buildi putting a lift in and building a lift to it. Oh! You can't be doing with that. I mean but okay, well all it means is, you get twen yo once you start getting busy you get twenty twos not elevens. I mean And thirty sixes eventually . And thirty sixes that's right. Yeah. But er we've got three stand up freezers and the Yeah, you could have loads, there's, there's loads of room if you, could ge if you, if you bring that do it in here In the chest freezer. freezer. Chest those are, those are freezers. That's Good spaces. that's a chest freezer. Yeah well So you got three standing, one chest, and a fridge. Oh there's loads of room in there. Yeah. And then it's er That's the lift down into the cellar. I'm not riding down in that! So, she could send, you can send stuff down in that can you? Yeah, it takes erm you can get half a dozen crates in you could get eleven gallon if you wanted. Oh aye. Cos you'll have to keep your beer down there won't you? Yeah. Are there any way I can , oh mind you, you've to get it up anyway haven't you? Yes. You see look lots of people'll write on there won't they? Yeah. Oh yeah. That's right. Better, just, you just, in sa well I don't mean better but it just makes just the difference now so what can I say?. National Scutters. That's er, from a rally. Oh yeah! Oh right. Association of Rallies . Right. I don't think that looks different like that. So that's so big. See the but er, this room drives me up the wall! I mean I Go on, tell me again. Is that back of stage? This is back of the stage. And back of disco. Yeah, back o back a no it's the D J This is the back this is, the D J is here Oh right! Yes. This is just a back wall that is So really, if we got shot of all that cos really, you want to make another hatch Give it a bit more room. Yeah. Yeah. Which then would make Yeah.. Oh my God! Done it again! I thought I'm hearing yeah, you could make a ra er you can make another hatch. Yeah, could but It should erm Or you can do all these round here. Yeah. And you could have this for your preparation area if you want. Yeah. Cos when er side int it? It's just happened to er you're gonna have to get some what they call it? The things showing round there them . You don't want it I don't smoke. Oh well they're not, I mean, they're not put out for Yeah, it's a big . Oh!? Oh! Have to be really aren't they? Mm. Right there's a so I mean say I mean at the moment all the food is is protecting the license cos you've got to do food, food up to two o'clock. You've got to have food available. Oh yeah, definitely. Yeah. So I mean, we're just going through the motions at the moment, I mean, quite hone But you have food? Yeah. But I mean quite honestly we haven't No, that's a, that's, right, but I mean that's neither here nor there is it? No. But you see, you've got the potential to do a big opera a bigger operation. Mm. You see, and er Well that's where, I mean, you can make money on the food sometimes can't you? And that's, that's where you've got Make the money, yeah. And this is why takes to get all this down and get get a location better than the Carlton for the, I mean, alright, we aren't gonna be able to do the three or four hundred, but then we No, no. I can't imagine anything worse than doing a function for three or four because by the, by the laws of average how the hell are you gonna get it out to them all as it should be? I mean,de a I, I think he doesn't do a bad job on to be fair No, he doesn't. I mean he does the big functions and he doesn't do a bad job No he doesn't. he's better than he was a few years ago and Ah yeah. and, and Oh yeah, definitely he's yeah. A he's I think Rob gets a bit ups a bit wound up because there's no I tell you what amazes me, Mary, he takes, he can take a conference, when they have a big do he puts them there for the, you know for their dinner or whatever they Yeah. got there. And, he's, she s keeps on at him all the time, he's never taken a photograph of the place laid out for a big dinner. So she keeps sort of saying well of course, er, you're taking an organizer round the disco aren't you? You're like, you know, he's stood in the disco and you go to him Yeah. well it's all laid Yeah. out. Well they'd like, I'd like to know They've gotta imagine it, you ought to have like a pull Yeah. a photograph and say oomph! Say that we want it set up in here with a photograph and that wants to be on the thing outsi Yeah. in the cape outside. Yeah. Yeah. Erm but to do, but like I say, if you've got somewhere that could just er er you see, cos I mean what, the most we can do is fifty Mm. down there. That's right. Then er which is nice,i it forty's lovely! Forty's absolutely lovely to do. And that, and that's it, but I mean, to do, to have somewhere to do two hundred like this would be absolutely incredible! Could always do small weddings down there and, and then the big do Mm. at night up here. That'd make that just totally makes it different. I want to just go and have a look in them you see if you've well anyway Well erm, I might get to a certain extent. Cos you're nearly Yeah. aren't you? Mm. Again, this is look it's the same as this. Shit! Well where's that go? That's the fire escape down to outside. Oh so you couldn't you'd have to leave them No you can't, no you can't, no. But that's that area we were looking at. Either side of the disco console. That's the passageway we just walked down. And that's the area you were banging. Oh that's where I were banging on wall? Yeah. Right. Yeah. Well that'd be fine because then it means that you've got either you've got your back in Mm. and out, or whichever way Yeah. round you Yeah. want to do it. So that fine, all this comes down. And you can still sort of ma make it elevated up this really nice and Mm. whatever. That's that wallpaper int it? Yeah ! Right, so this is It's actually you know, if you took the time you make a tremendous, it'd make a tremendous big area wouldn't it? Brilliant! No messing! Right, depends what the and quite honestly, if you bring these down and make them a bit more romantic Yeah. you know. God knows what they'll get up to! Well I a don't give a bugger, me! I aren't bothered for them. Fifteen there's fifteen there and whatever they need here. Thirty seven. See you could seat fifty on here. Yeah. I, I think I ca I, once upon a time I did on the fixed seating for, for I think you could get about a hundred and twenty round Yeah. there. O as it is? Yeah. As it is. Yeah. Packed out. Er But you see the other thing, the other thing that er that's worth, when you've had the smaller dos, you know Mm. sort of even, even like sixty, eighty people you can lay one of these raised areas out as the big cold buffet area Oh the buffet, yeah. Yeah. which kills a lot Yeah. of space in the club. Yeah. The only thing that worries me about taking that out is that you then create a massive empty space, if you have got No you don't. sixty, seventy people you have to then No you don't because what you do is, you do it down there. Well And this is off Yeah. innit? Yeah. Then you go back and sit up there. That's it. Yeah. Yeah. You do it down there, and this is erm if you did it over there it would look absolutely dreadful! You do it down there, you set it up in the middle and you set it up really nice and cosy. Mm. And then er We got a lot, we got a, quite a lot of these little blue tables so you could actually Yeah. surround the dance floors Oh yes. No, no but we messing. push, you know, push people into the dance floor so they're there anyway. Yeah, and you make a totally, you make a totally different erm it's, it in one sort of minor operation if you like, alright, minor to a Mm. certain extent, you've totally transformed it Barry. Mm. And it, it That's right. definitely looks so different. I mean, even if you didn't do anything else. Mm. But I think erm, you've just got to er, we've just got to er gerrit sorted. It, it, it int gonna take much sorting and get the you know Mm. We could use that chrome railing around Well you co area yeah you could use that chrome railing elsewhere, we could Mm. you know. I don't think you, you've, you've got to try in a way not to shut it off too much erm and yet it,i you've just got to sort of be able to not shut it off but sort of create different areas Mm. within one big area i i if you can and I think shutting things, I think putting trellising up to, not trellising but that sort of thing, to a certain extent at the minute we don't need and I think I'll have to come a time er too when it's open as well to get Now,wha what I was just thinking of Yes. But it could be just on a Saturday and Sun is it, if you, if you're using, if you're gonna use it as a pub as well Did you? No. But we weren't educated in, in, in health though. We just li we just lived and that was the end of it. Yes but then you see, in the ol in the old days Gordon, I mean, you we you were very fortunate if you got three meals a day and i and whatever you got you were glad of and used to eat it all. Now we're much more affluent and people are educated we er Mm. as regards their health. Mhm. Well th having said that Gordon, your mother lived to a good old age, and my mum, and my father did. Yeah. And they ate all the wrong stuff didn't they ? According to wha according to what they say now they did. Mm. I know. Don't know who to believe really. When you look at, when you look at the some, all these, a lot of these composers and artists who died long ago and you look the birth range there's a hell of a lot at seventy five, seventy six Yes. a oh there's a few at forty odd. Mm. But there's a hell of a lot well into their seventies. You know, and they were born early eighteen hundreds. Yes. Yes. Yeah. I know. I know we're living longer now generally but I wonder how much I don't know I I wonder you know how much, how much, I don't really know. Cos there's more people now than there was in those days. Yeah, there's a lot more people. It's not anyhow, I mean, it's alright living longer if you, if you, if you've got all your faculties. Mm. And you've got good health and everything. It's no use living like a cabbage, I don't think so anyhow. No, that's And when I see these people in nursing homes all sat round a wall in chairs oh God! I'd hate to end up like that. Somebody's . Pardon? Left the gate open. Did you? I wonder who's that? I'll check. Has a leaflet come through. Yes. I bet there has. Tell you what, the Conservative candidate's not been round has he? No he daren't. Erm my first job was erm helping the keeper. With the pheasants. I started there when I was about fifteen and er erm they used to breed about er six hundred pheasants there you see. And my job was to going round with the keeper and feeding them every morning. They used to have a erm hens there you see, they used to go round the small farms buying hens, then for half a crown each, just for sitting on the eggs to hatch them. And then they used to put them in er er small boxes out in the field and er I used to go round in the woodlands and cut some you see, put them in the ground with a small branch on them and then we used to make some string and loops out of erm wire to go round their feet you see. And then we used to put these loops the through the loops and tie their legs to the string. And have them in the get their feed first thing in the morning you see. And as soon as they finished their feed and they had some drinks from the small tins as well, we used to put them one by one back in these boxes where the eggs were and they used to settle down straight off then after they had their feed and and they used to erm settle down no trouble at all . And then the old keeper used to come round and see that we were all right and they'd be there till the following day and carry on for about three or four weeks you see. And then as they hatched you see, you used to take them in into the incubator then. Because we had finished with the hens then you see, and they used to sell the hens for about two shillings or something like that you know. In the old time. And then erm they eggs would be in this incubator for about a week and then they used to arrange coops for them to go out do you see, we used to fence a field below the mansion,, in the field there, because there was a good in enclosure right round the two drives and then there were shelter you see. And then we used to fence it half . And get a shed there or a hut anyway. And then we used to put some coops there and small runs for them and we used to carry them there, every night because they settled down better in the night than in the daytime. And the hen with back again there if they hadn't sold them. Take the hens . And erm we used to have about six hundred in all there they say. And then when they had come about two months old, something like that, er we used to carry them out now, into the woodlands and with the rest of the hens. Into the woodlands. At night. As when it was eight to nine o'clock at night sometimes up to twelve o'clock, depends on how many was going out. Because they settled down better in the night in the woodlands. Mm. If you took them in the daytime, they'd come back, but taking them in the dark, when they were asleep into the woodlands, they'd settle much better do you see. In the bushes and all that. And then we used to after that, we used to go out, every in the morning and at night, taking some feed out, to them wherever they were do you see. Now then, after they cut the in the farm, all the rakings erm there might be about four or five loads there do you see. They used to take the what they called the rakings, the spare after they carried the sheaves in. The spare of the of the straw and there was some er seed among them do you see. Used to take a load of that to one part of the woodlands. Another one to another part there, and so on. About four or five. And then we used to call them because that's where we were feeding them do you see. After they had settled down among the bushes, we used to take these do you see. And then they would walk for them do you see, do their way up for them. And then we used to feed them on these rakings there do you see. Er twice, morning and night. And er if you went quietly back after putting the feed out say before dark, put the feed down there and you went quietly back and watched them, you wouldn't believe how many would have been there. There'd be about two or three hundred. Perhaps on the same erm pheasant . Because there were some old ones there before the young one had've gone there do you see. And erm then they settled down. There on that patch do you see. Now then my my place for feeding was the upper side of do you see. All the woodlands of the upper side, there was three three feedings there. Three erm place to feed them. And we used to watch them. Go there sometimes about four o'clock give them a feed out and then we used to I used to stay there in a small shelter there. And they'd go down right over the main road, right over the fields, over the railway, through the fields along the beach there. And about four o'clock to five o'clock, they'd be coming back. And as they were coming back they would be cawing. For used to go over the road and they used to go over the railway. You could hear them coming from the distance, back. And they make to the same place to their feed. And that's in that place just round about there. That's where they were roosting overnight on the trees. Just on that path there do you see. And they'll come from oh two or three miles back to the same tree. Same tree every night. No different tree. But to the same tree. And the s the trees they would like to come was the pines and the pines because they they've got a mop like of of leaves do you see, and they were well sheltered there, among these. And they were hidden among them do you see. So they were quite warm there. Doesn't matter what the weather was. They were quite warm there. And they'll come to that tree every night. The same about forty to fifty on that field on that tree, they'd come to that tree every night. Doesn't matter where they were. And erm the keeper, had from up towards the mountain do you see. Three er feedings there again. And then that was there, the old ones and all. From the past, used to come there do you see and feed. And roost in the same spot there. Aye. And then in between, I was to go round with him, say in the afternoons or some mornings, and he had heard about a fox somewhere. Perhaps up in the or up in the mountain. We used to go after lunch, straight up to the mountain or wherever the fox was. And dig them out, young cubs and all. Did you? Aye. And catch them alive in the burrows. And that was a job. And er we used to dig down, we used to put the the dogs in, used to have about two or three terriers. Put them in. And block all the holes. Perhaps you'd block all the holes. Perhaps you'd put one in. Just to mark. And then we used to listen with our ear on the ground and we could hear where the dog was do you see, and then we used to dig down there because we knew it was fighting there with the with a vixen do you see. The fox we used to we used to dig down there and come to the vixen. And then the old keeper, he was quicker than I am, because I was l erm because he was used to the job do you see. And then I was taken the dog out slowly do you see, and the old vixen coming out forward do you see. And he used to have a small piece of stick with a on the end of it, cut from er a tree or a bush. And as soon as she puts her head down out for the for the dog do you see, fighting, he used to put this V on her back, right at the back of the the the neck. Just above you know on the scruff scruff anyway. And hold her down. And the he could get his hand do you see, round her nose anyway, around her snout. Catching hold of her and she couldn't get back do you seem because he had slipped this hand down this stick, got hold of her and he you see, and then I let go of the dog and take the the front feet and we used to drag her out like that you see, from the burrow and put her in a bag. As soon as she was in the sack, it was a sack then, you wont get them now. Old fashioned sack. As soon as she was in the sack, she was as quiet as a lamb. Very very quiet. And then Not struggling? No struggling at all. As soon as she was in the bag, Mm. she was quiet like a lamb. No at all. We used to tie her in there and get the cubs out then do you see, we used to dig for the cubs. They might be about er a month old, perhaps six weeks old and we used to get them sometimes, most of the time we would get about four there, sometimes three. And we used to catch them alive, take them out, put them in a bag together again, and off home again do you see. And then er we used to make a a big chest for her do you see. You used to have two or three old chests there. And we used to take one of them, do it up, put some straw in and everything and all that and then, tie there was a ring in the ground you see in one of the . And a chain there and we used to tie her to this chain so that she could get into the box and out again, and then we used to put the cubs there first in the straw and then we used to put her there do you see. Just take take the bag, put it in and let go and then shut her there for the night, just for one night. And with a lead on and off do you see. And then in the night when it was dark, the old keeper used to come there, open the top of the lid and shut the door, because she was in a she was in a loft do you see, above the kennels, with er an iron er ladder going up and down you see, and then shut the door on her there do you see and she could get in and out then from the chest. And then the job was on the following days was after be shooting rabbits to feed them do you see. For about oh, three or four weeks. Till we had a customer do you see through the office in . A customer from somewhere in England, where they used to hunt them do you see. I see. And then er perhaps they were get a customer in about two or three weeks perhaps, less than that sometimes. And then, the next job was to make a a a crate for her to go on the railway do you see. erm er erm big crate with some strips of wood along the top. And then plenty of straw and everything and put the old vixen in and the cubs and some food for and then the old erm the old er erm what did they used to call it? Oh the not a Land Rover then.. Mm. That's what they call it. Aye the . That's when they used to come up and put it in the straight on to the station. And then the depot on and off to wherever was the place like. Aye aye. And we had finished with them. Aye. Another time was about October, I don't know what he was doing with them, but in October, middle of October, we used to go out to the beach and shoot erm Oh what do you call them now? They've got long beaks like that. You can hear them in the Summer, just before dusk in the swamps. the er the curlews? Curlews, that's it. The curlews. Used get as much as he could of them, I don't know was it to keep the the amount of them down or not. I'm not quite sure. Because they used to be in the swamp hours. Hours in the swamp and when they were going all thick and heavy there, he used to go round about October, just for that one day, and shoot as much as he could, and bring them into the mansion. What they were going I don't know. Aye and er he had a g special gun for that job. It was a about thirty six barrel. Length of barrel. And he used to c take cartridges erm about an inch and a half thick and about three inches long. Specially made. Single barrel. And on the end of the erm stock there was the to take the kick do you see. And er sometimes you'd have a stand for it because it was too long. And he used to have a small stand on it do you see, to hold the barrel, and then he could manoeuvre around just like a machine gun. Wherever the birds where, aye. And for shooting er wild erm geese. And er wild ducks as well. In fact, they used to call it the gun for the wild ducks do you see. And they used to be coming erm about the end of September through the beginning of November, they used to come to the beach from different directions, during that time. And that was the time to shoot them. Aye, different birds. Erm er different ducks erm and ducks. Aye. were the small ones, all different colour. But the were creamy white the big ones then were the ones for eating anyway. Aye aye. Yes and I had a lot of er experience with with training dogs and all that for hunting the old foxes and all that. Did you? Yes. Yes. On f er was it on foot? Yes. Oh yes, on foot aye, aye. And erm we used to carry erm used to have a pair of binoculars with him and I used to have the old er telescope do you see. And er we used to look if we could see some on the side of the mountains from the distances you could pick it out with a pick them out with er with this telescope it was a heck of a good telescope, aye. It was so good, this telescope, we had, when I was watching the pheasants, in the field, I used to be there all day for the the carrion crows would come along do you see. Then we had to shoot them do you see. The carrion crows. And it was funny, the carrion crows use to keep away for the whole week nearly. But when the Sunday morning used to come, the old and the old erm Scotch keeper used to tell me, Tom, he used to say, I you know it's Sunday again? Yes, I said,look at them crows, he says to me, they know it's Sunday because you'd never shoot on a Sunday. No. No? He was a Scotchman, he would never shoot on a Sunday. Doesn't matter if he saw his fox, he wouldn't shoot it on a Sunday. No. Aye he was very very keen er keep the Sunday clean. Aye. Aye aye. And er the only thing we could do then was to chase them away go round you know and just chase them away. . But this telescope the field was just below . The mansion of . And I could see right across the fields and right across the Menai Straits onto Beaumarais. From there and I had this telescope. And I could see during the week this was,in the mornings you know, say about eight or nine to ten in the morning, and I could see the figures of the ladies there, cleaning the windows in the morning. And the front. You couldn't see them right if you were a few yards from them, but just the figures moving you know, and their arms going backwards and fore cleaning the windows. Yes, it was so good as that. It was a good telescope. Aye, aye. One of the best I ever saw. Aye. And erm you could see a long distance with it like that you know, especially if you could see a fox from er about a mile and a half, you could see right going along the rocks in the mountains. Aye. Aye. And erm say the fox had been in the ground, and the and the the young cubs, for about three or four days. And we used to hear somebody saying there was a vixen there and some and some young ones. we went up there with the dogs and let them in in to the burrow. Block everywhere, let them into the burrow. One dog would go in, and she'd just shake her tail and come back, and you couldn't get her in afterwards because she knew that they'd cleared off. I see. They had moved. Yeah. Anyway the scent was there, but she was wise once she had gone through, Oh it's alright. She wouldn't go in then, and you knew then, well they've gone. What they were doing, the old vixen was walking them higher up into the mountain for safety. And the old dog knew that it was empty, no use digging down or anything, she had gone do you see. Aye, they were quite wise like that. Yes. And one time, I remember, er we had gone among the rocks there, and we had er two erm two fox terriers there. And one was fox terriers. And er that one would fight, doesn't matter what was there, it'd fight its way out. Anyway, when I came in, and he he didn't come out. It was oh about two to three o'clock in the afternoon. And he didn't come out. Dark when the r it came dusk and dark again and he hadn't come out. And we left him there and we went home. Up there about six o'clock in the morning, ad we managed to get him out them. And he was bitten all over his face, everywhere. And of course the old keeper knew what was there alright when he saw the old dog coming out. It was erm badger. A badger Badger den Aye. Mm. And that one was fighting with the dog do you see. Because they've got a shelf do you see, in the burrow,for safety. If er something comes in, they can attack him on his back do you see. And that's what happened you see, he had him on. About his ears and all his face like that. But the old dog survived alright. Aye. Aye. The old keeper he knew how to treat him and he was on alright in about a month. Aye aye. But erm we set some traps then . Gin was one then. You could use them. We went back with these traps, put them in a half circle right round, bout nine of them, anyway. And er a fox trap as well as the gin trap, that one's a bigger one. Anyway, the following day he was there. The third day, in the trap. Aye. Aye. He had gone to the big one and he wandered about his two in his legs. Aye, of course we couldn't go near him, we shoot him from a distance,. Aye. And that one we were doing in the meantime. Between the feeding, the pheasants and all that, aye. And I was there for the erm oh about fourteen months in all with the shooting. How how old were you And they were starting shooting the pheasants about then, it's altered now. It used to be the twenty first of October. Mm. Right through to the middle of January. Yes and we used to have about two or three er days of shooting during that erm that period anyway. Aye aye. Aye. Yes and er we used to have about two hundred three hundred birds on the for the shooting and then perhaps about a hundred and fifty or so or something like that on the second. And erm we used to help er in the woodlands then, used to give us a help. And they'd be all down in the cellar do you see. And up in the cellar, after the shooting, we had to make them to a brace like that, a cockerel and a hen. In a brace. And hang them up in the cellar all night. Because there was two or three rooms there do you see, a proper place for hanging up. And the following day, we had to go in and help and pack them in hampers. Do you see. Specially made for them. Pack them there, the whole braces. Aye. And erm take them and down two two or three loads down to the station. Pack them off. For Manchester, Liverpool and er different places like that. Aye, aye. Aye. And of course, on the shooting, they used to have a good feed of you know in the mansion in the cellar. Aye. All tables laid out, all kinds of meat and puddings and everything. Yes? Yes. And plenty of drinks, Aye aye. Who would be at the shoot then? Well they used to invite do you see. Lord for instance and er there used to be one from this way, Portmadoc somewhere, the place was the place was called . And erm that one was just along beyond Caernarfon here somewhere. And Anglesey, I remember from Anglesey, he was from that way somewhere. And erm Colonel from . And erm some from towards er that way, from the estate there somewhere. Used to be about four or five you know, aye. And the major himself of course. And er the some of the the family as well. Yes. I remember one lady there, she was only young, and she was she was only about twenty five, and er she had a a twelve bore, single barrel gun. I thought it was too heavy for her, she was only small. But sh she was the second best shooter there. For the day, for bringing them down. Aye. Was she? Aye. Everybody was surprised. She was such an accurate er shooter. Aye, aye. Aye. You see one, was close to the woodlands and in fact missed, she was just in the bottom of the field, and she's sure to get the bird. . And then as we were beating you see, inside, through the bushes and all, and a pheasant got up, and we used to shout,, do you see, for them to know that he was coming. Aye. But the noise of him and the flapping was good enough sign too. Yes. And I had been loading for the Major the last time that I was out shooting, the last time for me like. Aye aye. Aye, the one that used to was poorly . He a loader for him. Aye aye. Two guns of course. And then you had to be quick at it you know. Keep two cartridges in your hand all the time, and then as soon as you'd handed your gun, and you were taking the other one, and he was the empty one. They used to swing out themselves do you see, just open trigger handle for the barrel to open, they used to spring out , and then put the two new ones in you see and close it straight off. And you had to be quick you see, because the birds sometimes used to come and stop over. Yeah, yeah. Yes. And then and used to miss you know sometimes he would be missing every one nearly and he'd be cleaning his glasses all the time , Dash it . Aye aye. Other times he couldn't miss. Aye aye. Aye. Oh I enjoyed it. And erm then I went to the woodlands as a forester. And I started from there as a forester. I was about sixteen and a half then or going for seventeen aye. And I was there for twenty five years. Aye, in the woodlands. And I've been er erm loading for him two or three times after that. Aye aye. Aye. Yes. And er then I carried on in the woodlands then, cutting trees down and erm sawing up too. I was on the circular sa saw there for about eight or ten years. Doing nothing only sawing all day. Aye, that was during the wartime, aye aye. Aye. And erm felling, trees. Cutting trees for blocks for them, for roads. And they used to go through about oh I should say about erm carts then you see, horse and carts. And they used to take about six loads a day you see. Of er blocks. Er every week. They had to go through a lot of blocks. And about seven to eight, truckloads of coal. They used to have them in the Summer, ready for the Winter. And they used to stack them all in the cellar. For the twelve months like. Aye. And erm the trucks were about Yes and I was there till about erm nineteen fifty three. I started in . August nineteen fifty three. And I was there till I was erm twenty six years in . Aye altogether. Yes. And of course my work here, I used to do in I used to plant a lot in . Of trees. But in when I came to , it was mostly erm planting threes again. And in I was planting an average, there was five of us working and the students and we used to average about fourteen to sixteen thousand every year of young plants. But clearing was a job mostly. I didn't mind planting, we were quick planting, but clearing for planting, that was the worst job do you see. You and open the ditches and all that. . Aye aye. But erm going back to er to , twice we had an oak land fire. Twice. I remember it was oh about nineteen twenty eight something like that it was. And s it had been a heck of a storm. And we had a plantation right out in the erm warren. And it was a plantation of er . And we didn't go there to cut them at all because they were right open, right in the open and there was ho hope for them anyway. We left them there to season, we didn't bother. And er of course we had then. Anywhere we were c clearing the river up because blocked that, one Summer day and it was very hot for about a month or so. And we were at it clearing this there right in in the hollow. And there were some er foresters . They when they had bought bought a a plantation of larches. You want them for pit props. And they they had bought them. And they had these two or three foresters there, cutting them up. And we could hear somebody calling and shouting. We couldn't make out what was wrong. And er they were still whistling and calling, so I went up on to the top of the bank and they it was this plantation that fell down in the warren and caught fire. Somebody had been picnicking there do you see, in the warren and left some bottles there. And of course the sun caught the bottles and set the fire to the undergrowth of the grass do you see. And it was all peat. All these trees had been growing on peat do you see, and the peat was dry. Anyway we went up there but we couldn't do anything because the ground had taken fire do you see, all this peat. And the rabbits were bolting out from their house. And they had no single hair on. They were as clean you know, the backs of them as clean as my hand. They had not Because the ground was on fire do you see, and they were bolting out. And screaming. You could hear them squeaking off from a distance. And we were trying to kill them everything . Take them out of their misery but you couldn't cope with them because the ground was moving with them. Oh we felt terrible for them. Anyway, the trees were all burnt to dust. Aye aye. It wasn't only about half an acre or less. Aye. All the trees, but they had all fall down do you see, flat. And of course, they had seasoned by then and they were just like matches going, aye. And we didn't bother, we couldn't do anything much for these rabbits and try and kill them you know, as much as we could aye. Aye. Er it was better to leave it to burn out do you see. And the second fire I had was just before the last war. We had been clearing oh about six acres of woodlands. Been all been cleared f f erm What we used to call it, cut and clear felled you see. All cleared. Ready for planting, and of course, oh there were some twigs and everything . I remember we cleaned it all up, and it was right on the boundary wall between property and . And we had a small bonfire in a way of small twigs and all that. All the undergrowth. And we had put it on fire and it had died down, you could have put it on two or three shovels, when we were leaving the place do you see, and it was all quiet and all all right now, and off we went home. About four o'clock in the morning, the following morning, a farmer was knocking on my door. And he said, Come here, the whole forest is on fire. I couldn't believe it till I went out. dressing gown and off I went out. To the front of the house and then like we see all the side and the f on fire. So I went back, dressed, and off I went, called the and I went up to try and beat it off. No hopes, it was travelling under our feet, non-stop. We were beating and beating. Anyway in the end, they called the the fire brigade. We we could see it was going out of control. Even big old trees you know, they were coming down. Mm. Burning and the top of them coming down you know, it was dangerous. And the fire brigade was coming along the road, we could hear it coming you know. And it came a heavy shower, thunder shower. And it lasted about three quarters an hour, and it all damped down. We were as glad as anything when we saw this rain coming down. We were soaked to the skin, we didn't care . As long as we could stop the fire. Because it was travelling you know, on er oh a line of about ooh I'm sure about six hundred yards. Because he had gone back to the woodlands where the trees were. And it was going along through the woodlands, travelling like the river . And covered in sweat. But when this rain came down, it was like it had been sent to stop it you know. A heavy rain, we were soaked in about five minutes, soaked to the skin. Aye. Aye. But it stopped it like that, it was only just smouldering you know. And and of the fire brigade, We couldn't do anything better. They all turned back that was all. Aye with their tankers, aye aye. That's the only two fires I had. And what happened you see,the wind got up during the night, and this small fire we had you see, started spreading back among the undergrowth, and then the more it was back, the bigger it was t gaining ground, and it was getting to the old stuff do you see, And then it was a good flare then. And it started, we could see where it started from, this fire. And it was like a black carpet all the way. Aye aye. If we had put some two or three stones on it you see, that'd been better. But we thought it was alright, we didn't bother. I mean it was right up to the wall, and the we'd have bothered. But you can see what will happen. and it was right through. Yes and when I came to , as I was saying we were clearing all half of . Cos they didn't have the whole park, only I think it was three hundred er no five hundred acres in all. Taking the the front grounds and the gardens and the farmland, and the woodlands. Erm there's about two hundred acres of woodlands do you see. And erm the farm the erm Mr , timber merchant, he had bought when he came up, the whole park. You see, during the wartime. And now then, this half that the college had, do you seem he had taken most of the timber from there, do you see. There was a timber control and they had been there, controlling him. But he had cut do you see, all on the inside, and left along the roadside. All the trees along the roadside, and they had matured. And then do you see, he had taken most of the stuff from here, because he had four sawmills going do you see. The biggest one in Conway. And now then, all the small stuff was going as well do you see, for firewood, for the the stuff . For the stations, railway stations because they couldn't get any coal do you see. And the same from we'd been selling from there as well. To make fires in the in the waiting rooms and all that do you know. Anyway, we had cleared nearly everything, only the tops of the trees were there, left to rotten and they were been dropped on the bushes. And then all the undergrowth was there as well do you see,tangled. All you wanted was the rough stuff out do you see, all the timber that was good, and the bad stuff as well,get it out. Anyway, what happened do you see, the ones that he'd cut in the beginning, when he bought the place. And he was here before he bought the place. The undergrowth, rhododendrons, brambles everything, had grown through the branches do you see. So there was the job of clearing. And all the water courses been blocked up and then it was swampy as well. Anyway, we cleared them and erm we started by the , clearing all them. Er all that patch along the and during nineteen I started in nineteen fifty three, and about the end of nineteen fifty four, before Christmas, most of the lot that he had left behind, came down. Ornamental trees and everything mixed with them. It was a heck of a gale. Er a southwestern gale. And it started about midnight. And we were down there about half past seven in the morning, and the trees were still felling then, with the wind. Do you see. And due to them taking a lot of the trees do you see, from there, and opened the wind in do you see. I see Take them I mean along the main road, he had taken the the the trees at the back of them and they had no shelter and they were down in the main road. And all over the place. You couldn't get in or out of here. Because every entrance had been blocked with trees. Big beech trees and er pine trees and everything. Every road there was, the main drive, the drive from the erm what do they call it ? Er the lodge on the main road from Caernarfon and the East Lodge, half way to , that one was blocked as well, then three blocked. The entrance from in to the woodlands was blocked. And in the h other half, of the park, them had come down as well do you see. So there was no entrance there and all they could do was clear by the main lodge. And go through the fields, open a way through the field do you see. From the mansion. And then we were clearing all the for the week afterwards, opening places to go in and out do you see. Now then,, being that was working on the other side, took all the trees on the main drive do you see, and he bought them and cleared them. And the scars are still there today, the old stumps and all that. Anyway, that took a lot of our work do you see, back to clear them. And selling er most of them like. Another firm from Chester bought them er on the roadside. And erm it was mostly planting then as I was saying. And we were buying plants from er . And why I went there to buy them, was because it was the same climate as , and the trees, there was no setback in the plants do you see, they were starting growing straight off cos they'd been, was the same climate. Aye. Yes. As . And then I had some that was acquired from the forestry alright again. Same climate. Then I had some from Mid Wales, and they were slow in staring, because they took about twelve months to settle in there. And get used to the climate. Most of them came on all right in the end. Some were dying back. And erm I had some beech along the roadside, main roadside. From Barrow in Furness. Er and I had about twelve thousand along there. From Barrow in Furness. I took a day to go and fetch and Mid Wales, I had a lot of er of erm erm spruce er Norway, larches and . The American black they call it. And we had thousands from there as well. But er by the time I was ready to retire, I had planted all the half park. About two thousand acres in all. Within about two acres, by the time I retired. Had had had you ever worked out how how m m how many trees that is about? No I hadn't kept a a of the whole like. But we were doing on average about fourteen thousand sixteen thousand each year. Yes. Mm. Except the first two or three years I was here. we didn't plant much then. Cos I hadn't had the gang then do you see, there was only two of us then. And with a clearing and we were having the help of the students of course. But there wasn't much students then, we had about four of five in the beginning. So I couldn't get the swing of it then do you see, for about two or three years. Or two years anyway. About three years, I had some more gang to help me and the students were increasing then do you see. Yes. But erm towards about the sixth year, we used to plant about the average of fourteen, thirteen, fourteen, sixteen thousand, aye aye. Of course, it wasn't a matter being that they were plants only about . They were only about nine to fifteen inch tall do you see. But the they were going up from er twelve to eighteen inches. An er they were coming in er the Norways, they were coming in bundles of a hundred. The being that they were taller, and older, they were coming in bundles of about fifty do you see. So we had to as soon as they come we had to open a trench and heel them in do you see. Cover them up. And make sure the frost wasn't getting at them. Make sure the wind or the frost wasn't getting at the roots. Or it killed them straight off. And that was an extra job. And then we could use them straight from that ditch as we were planting do you see. Planting about two hundred, three hundred, four hundred a day, depend on the crowd we had, aye aye, aye. Yes. And erm as well as that, we were cutting young trees, what was left like on the plantation, for stakes do you see, for the farm. And erm selling them. Of the stakes. And cutting firewood, to b to sell as firewood as well. Aye and making posts, gateposts for the farm and all that. Yes, helping the f the joiner with er with sawing as well with a big circular saw. That would keep him in in timber do you see, keep him going. Aye aye. And open the the ditches. Which was that one was a heck of a job. Being there was no erm what they call them now? Er erm the digger isn't it erm J C B type thing ? J C B, that's it. Mm. It was all done by pick and shovel then . Aye and took more time. Yes, but we was to get the hand of the farm fellas to do the the erm the digging with the with the ditches and all that, yes. Yes. Aye, Well was different, to . was more flat, but was all side. Working on the side do you see, so all the water was running away do you see. There was not much er ditching there at all. No no. That's all on the side. Well now then you had to get different spaces for to here. The same spaces wouldn't do in that did in . For instance,erm because it was all side, Douglas pine, Douglas fir was doing better there than in . was doing all right, but Norway spruce was doing very badly, because during the war during the Wintertime do you see, there was only the Menai Straits, there and there was not much salt in the air. Do you see. So the wind was more fierce there off the straits. And , them will survive there, but during er the Winter, starting October, you could see the face of the plantation of that was facing the sea, it all scorched up towards the end of O of er December. And they would be like that scorched bread. All the leaves getting off. Until well in the following Summer, they would recover again. Because the wind was so cold off the Menai Straits do you see. it was scorching them right through. Could hardly get some to grow there. Larches were doing alright. But the they weren't doing very well at all there. No. And erm in erm , the er yes the not the Norway, the er the ones that was growing in the shelter of the oak trees, they were surviving alright. Patch here and there. But as soon as you cut the the oak trees, down, and the ash, they would catch the wind then and scorch do you see. Aye aye. You had to be very . Beech, there wasn't much beech in , it was mostly round the mansion and at the back of the grounds. That was all. Because it didn't do at all well there. because beech likes a lot of lime in the ground you see. Well that's Does it. oak and ash doesn't like much of it. Erm again beech was doing much better in and the scotch pine, one of the best places for scotch pine and beech. But the oak, you didn't get the the good class of oak here. You could get a better class of oak in . Because of the rocks there. It was all rocky and the oak well likes the rocks do you see, and they were doing better. They were slow in growing of course, but they like the rock better. And it was a better class of oak all through. Ash, the same again. If you cut the ash in , it was whitish, but if you cut it in , most of it when you cut it down, it was more like cream colour. Red and cream colour. And erm it was a better class altogether of ash. And the bark on the outside was a yellowish colour, the bark of it. But here, it was brownish do you see, rough brownish. Aye aye. And er if you get yellowish in the ash bask, it's a good class of ash. Is it? Yes. One of the best, cos it's tough do you see. Whereas the ones here, it's brittle. They'll snap. Aye. Well erm again was very good for pine. A lo lovely class of Douglas pine there, very good. Aye, er in er two or three places right in the woodlands, in , on the slope we had erm Douglas fir there, going up two hundred and fifty, and two hundred feet tall. Good heavens. And the circumfe and erm diameter on I'd been cutting a lot of them down, the diameter of them was from four foot to about six foot. In the butt like, aye aye. And erm all the timber for one. And erm another one from er erm oh what do you call that place? On the way to Manchester. Mm. It's beyond Connor's Quay that way. They were buying a lot from . They were two brothers. And they reckon it was the best class of of er Douglas fir they ever had. Aye aye. , this er fellow that was for in Conway told me we had to keep an extra erm for Douglas fir he says. We were . Because it's such a good timber, he says. Aye aye. Aye it's hard to saw them. Aye aye. Yes. and Melford my father's er mother's people were the . Melford was where he was in Canada when I was born. And that is over ninety ninety years odd. You see? Mm. So what years was that you were born? Eighteen ninety three. Aye. And do you have any brothers and sisters? I have one sister still alive. I had er two brothers and four sisters. But they er my two brothers, one died in nineteen forty. The result of well wounds. The other died at the age of What? Oh about ten years ago. Eight He was eighty nine when he died, and er both of them were in the family tradition, journalists. And in fact er one My brother next to n to me I was the middle of them I was the youngest boy. male they call it. His son is a Was former corresponder for in New York for the Guardian. Now he's on the editorial and Billy, my eldest brother he er was he came up in Glasgow er getting the Scottish Express. You see so a branch of the er London paper and at that time he was editor of the paper, they came up together, found it here. But one was on the Daily Mail and the other was on the er Express. And er at one time they were on the evening papers, opposite. They were they never worked on the same paper, they were always on Rival ones. Yes. Ooh. And my sisters three of them were teachers. And er an interesting thing had been coming to our house She comes goes to the same church. And she came up on a Wednesday for coffee, after the service. And she'd been coming to our house, Oh about fie or six years, and she said one day to Mary, that's my wife, says you know, Not strange name, there's not many of them about. So I says No, when we had the phone first we were the only one in the telephone directory. And I says er you know when I came back from Rio de Janeiro, she'd been out as a kiddy then. my teacher was a miss . And Mary said Yes, that would be Eric's sister. She was she taught in Pennycook for quite a while, then she went down to Birmingham. The other sister was er in High Wycombe,and the other one was in er Well she was in Creith for a number of years,And then she moved south because she wasn't musical and there was no chance of getting of headmistresship in Scotland if you hadn't got music. So she went down to Spalding and was headmistress of er School in Spalding. Until she Well not until she till she until she retired. She died a couple of years a er three years ago. So er and ten the other one, the one that's alive sh she started off teaching and then went to nurse. She wanted to be a nurse all her life, you see? Mm. She's a nurse. She's retired now, because she's eighty seven. Stays in South er no not south . And of course my father, he was in he had a local paper. Was he editor of the local paper? Well he was editor, you know, in a a small time a small of er about five or six thousand. Everybody has More or less has a paper It's not like the Scotsman or the News, as regards numbers, but then you've got all the local news and you got all the local advertisements. So journalism is one of the family, what if I say traditions? Mm. And where er abouts were you brought up? Girran. In Girran. And was it a big house or? Well it was a reasonable house, you know. One two three three little rooms downstairs. Upstairs there be there was four rooms upstairs. But at that time it wasn't what you'd call modern in so far as you hadn't got hot water from a sort of gas fir Electric heating. The bath, you had a bath room with a bath on the wall but you had to heat the water on a at the kitchen the kitchen fire. It were a old fashioned kitchen range where you'd got a an oven on one side and a boiler on the other. The boiler didn't fill automatic, you had you had to fill it with water. You took took a bucket of water out, you put a bucket of water in. That's how you heated that's how you got your bath. Heating the water, well it heated if you'd the fire on it heated the water and then you'd take a couple of buckets out into the bath, plug a couple of buckets in. And then er And there was no no such thing as electricity. Gas there was a local gas works you see? That made er the gas locally. But I remember quite well when the first incandescent gas mantles came in. You know, what a novelty it was, and the difference in the light between the old single gas lighter and the incandescent lighter. But er some of ther some you had no gas up the On the stair way. The gas The stairs were lightened with a a paraffin lamp. You know gas in the bedrooms, so as the The was gas in the bedrooms, but not on But not on the st not on the stairway. Why? I don't know. Mhm. There was warm gas er in the hall. You know a gas er light in the hall but the less The stairway, you either had to go up by er with a candle in your hand, you see? Or you got well er One two three four, there were four flights of stairs, in the one house. You got a couple of lamps either, well in the one case where there was a small landing, a hanging lamp and the other bigger, you had a table, you had a an ordinary table lamp. Oh yes. And you'd And you'd have the fires, open fires in your rooms. Oh they were all coal fires. There w there were no such thing as gas fires. They were open coal fires. And one Well all the bedrooms had er fire places, you see? So that in the winter time you put on a a coal fire. But there were no no such things as central heating and that. And er where did you start school? Girran. Girran. And what was it like? Was it a It was small school? No it was Girran High School was very good. Very good school, very good teachers. The headmaster was Morgan J , known as Morgan J or by the boys as Too Long and Too Loose. Why? Because he always had long trousers that went over his boots, and they were you know, very wide so the boys would call him too long and too loose. yes. Ooh there were all all there were With one exception they were all male teachers. The on the exception was the art mistress, she was a er Miss , but er Morgan ,,,,, all good and by you couldn't you know they were disciplinarians, strong disciplinarians, there was another chap. left Girran, went from Girran down to Oxford as professor of Latin. And he stayed there for the rest of his life. And Morgan J well he was the headmaster when I went to school first and he was there when I left and he retired and he was still here You know going about. There was ,, and another chap. There were four headmasters and they From Not from Girran because there was only the one high school, but from er Prestwick,Glenbuck and that, and the used to meet on a Saturday at Turnbelly to play golf. They played golf every Saturday if it was at all possible. And was the belt used a lot? Pardon? Was the belt used a lot? No. Because you didn't get the You know One one boy might have had the belt, say once in the week or a month, at Girran. Very seldom, there was no need. You know, you might get the belt for making a silly mistake over a sum, or some exercise or that, you see? Or coming in coming late. But it very The belt was there, now in the classroom the master had a desk and at the side of the desk was the belt. It was always on show, but it was seldom used. You know er very very seldom. And how did you learn to count, can you remember? Did you use the abacus? How did you learn to count ? To count , aha. When you went? You started, I forget one, you know they'd put them on the bo It was all board and slates, there were no books, you know, no papers. you had a a slate like you've got on the roof, but it it was bound with a wooden frame. And on the board was a one. And you out that one on your slate. And then two, and you put the two. Then add, you'd put a plus sign, one and equal, two and two plus two equalled four. Like that. And the same when it came to er subtracting, you see, it were all done on the board and you copied it onto your plate On to your slate. And from that you learned. And you had a bit of rage or duster or something, you'd got your slate filled, you'd just wiped it up, and dried it, start again. So that, literally speaking, there were no records of your early er training in addition, subtraction and that. When you went into the er higher grade, then you got jotters, because you had homework, so you'd homework to do and you'd, therefore, books. So that you could er give your translation you see? Or all that. You had your Latin, French, if you didn't if you didn't take French you took German. Your maths and your science. And your own jotters. And your homework was handed in every er so often, you know, you may have homework, English. And essay, write an essay on this, that or the next thing, at the weekend. It went into your jotter, your jotter was handed in on the Monday morning, or the first time you went to the eng the English class and the teacher was his name, he went over that and if you'd missed out a comma, you see or a full stop or anything like that. He corrected them, more or less, marked in up, and you got er four out of ten, five out of ten, ten out of ten. And did you stay at the same school through primary and secondary? Yes. one school. The on the only difference in, were different sizes of the room. You see the primary was in the one side and the high school the secondary was in the other. And were Did the classrooms, how were the classrooms heated then? They were in desks, you had a long desk that took Now some of them they took five on the one the one desk, you see? A long desk and a long seat. No individual desks. And the boys say on the one side and the girls on the other. Mm. And how were the classrooms heated? Can you remember? Well the classrooms were kept clean because the school finished at er twenty past four and half past four the janitor had the cleaners, you see? Mrs A had somebody Mrs B Mrs C Mrs D. they were always they were swept every day and at the weekends. One room would be the floors would all be scrubbed and polished, next week the next room. The next room, then come back. Every so often the rooms were scrubbed. When you sat your qualifying exam to go to the high school, er what happened to the people who didn't pass? They were It were divided into to, you could go to a high, or you could carry on at what they call supplementary. If you didn't get the if you didn't pass the class exam you could stay on and try again. that never happened. If you didn't get it you went in to the supplementary. If you got it you could go in to the higher, if you didn't want to go into the higher you leave at er thirteen, you went into the supplementary. It was er just er Well it was between, shall we say, the higher grade and the secondary school. Continuation of further education on the secondary lines. The only thing in the supplementary you didn't get was languages, but you got the the math, the science and all that, and English. So did you enjoy school? Yes. It was good. And did you have sport? You had you had no organized sport such as you have today, but you had a football team because there was no need for what you would call sports ground, there was plenty of available open space, park. there was the Stead Park, which practically covered the whole of our the er town you see? You If you lived in Stead Park, the houses in Stead Park looked straight across the green onto the sea. So that you've got football pitches there, with cricket pitches but if you wanted, if you were a golfer you went across to the golf course. But there wasn't what you'd call an organized sports group. If you wanted to play, class four would play class three, class three play class two, you know? But the teachers didn't organize it? No no. You The boys organized it themsel The boys organized it themselves. And as for girls, well er about the only thing they did was skip. You know, skipping ropes. And what did you do with your er spare time as a school boy? I Spare time as a school boy, I used to play either football in the winter or cricket in the summer. When I had spare time, but if you'd If it was decent weather you'd have to give a hand in the garden at home you see? You had to help get the garden Keep the garden tidy, keep the weeds down. It's alright at Although I'd two brothers, on or two would be away from home from home at the s the same time. I was left. So I had to give me father a hand, you know, to keep the garden, and he had plenty to do. So er they'd find you something to do in the garden in your time. Did you find that your father would have odd hours? Well er sometimes he he made of point of always being in the house not later than We'll say nine o'clock, unless there was something special on. You know a meeting of the town council. Well if there was a meeting of the town council it would perhaps start at eight o'clock. Because quite a l a number of members of the council had businesses and you didn't shut at six o'clock, it was seven or eight 'clock before they closed. And if there was a town council meeting it might go on till ten o'clock. So if the e You know it was only er exceptional cases when he was late. Did the paper er he had out every day? No it was a weekly paper. A weekly paper you see? And er later on when he Well he got that he couldn't carry on with it, you see. It was absorbed and went in to the Carrick Herald and the Aire Advertiser, and now they've all gone. I don't think there's a sort of local paper now. Course I haven't been down that way for a while. And when you left school what er age were you? I was between fifteen and sixteen. And what did you go What did you do? I had a relation with a chemist business in Motherwell. And er i didn't know him, you know, my Mother He was a cousin of my Mother's you see, and on call now and again. It wasn't like today, you could get in the car and nip down. To get to Girran you've got to go into Glasgow and get a train from Glasgow down to Girran you see? And that was er an express train was two hours journey. So And er I smelt, you know, and I went by a chemical and I thought Oh oh, grapes, the the odour you see? And that drew me. The aroma that exuded from the chemist shop in those days like er Depends what they'd been using you see? They'd been making er some mixed powder, fenugreek or something like that you see? You get the aroma of it. And er well there were three chemists in Girran W K , Archie and Gib . Well W K never took an apprentice, he wouldn't you know, he hadn't time, he had a permanent assis assistants like. He wouldn't he wouldn't take in ion an apprentice, it was too much. So I got in to Gib n as an apprentice on the second of August, nineteen twelve I think. Nineteen and eleven or twelve and er he was a figure in the b in the town, when I tell you, you won't remember the who were members of parliament for Orkney and Shetland. And if Punch were ever stuck he would get a cartoon of er one or other of the brothers sitting in parliament knitting. You know whistling and knitting. Well this man something wrong and he er had an appointment with a Girran man who was Professor of medicine in Glasgow, he'd gone up the ladder you know and finished. And he made an appointment. Well came from Bar which is er a matter of six miles, six to eight miles out side Girran and you'd got to come in by foot or by trap. In those days he came in with a His coachman brought him in the trap and they got the twenty minutes past seven express train to Glasgow. Well er he saw the Professor and paid the fee and that and then came back six =clock at night, he came into the shop. And he said he says Is er Gib in? Well the assistant said no er Ah he's upstairs getting his tea. Stayed above the shop, you see? In the house. But he said wait a minute I hear him coming down the stairs. So the boss came down the stairs and into the shop and he saw Oh hello, well did you get on with the Your examination? Ah well he says,and he said he's given me this list. If you can't get If you give me something of your own. After he travelled to Glasgow, he had more faith in the He'd more, you know, Mhm. if had said Oh this isn't worth a damn, take this, he would have taken it and been happy. Mhm. And Oh No he said, this'll be good, you know. So can you remember your f your wage when you went first? When I started first it was five pounds a year. And were you paid at six months or were paid every No paid every three months. And invariably you got a gold sovereign, you see? And er what,four the rest I think it was one pound five a Twenty five shillings every three months and you got a sovereign and often a five shilling piece. If you didn't get the five shilling piece you got two half crowns. Then it gradually went from five pounds to ten. There was a five pound increase every year you see? And what er was your job when you first started? When you first started you had the hallmark of an apprentice of black apron with a bib on it. You know er you see some of them with the apron that just goes round the waist. But this one came up over neck, over your neck, and then down here and strings there. And you did two years as an apprentice then another would come in and you dropped the bib and got a black apron. When your apprenticeship was finished, you got a white apron. How long was the apprenticeship. The apprentice varied three years up to, some of them were five. And what did you do as an apprentice a at first? I The first thing you were shown, taught to do, was to wash the bottles. You know, empty medicine bottles. You washed them. The er apparatus,measures, slabs, mortars, that were used for making compounds or dispensing medicines. They were put on the sink and you washed them. And dried them and put them on the rack again. And gradually dust or you've seen these er chemist shops where you've got lots of er drawers in. Well in my day, all those drawers had the natural drug. Aconite root,inside was a small cardboard label, you see? Giving the whole story Rad aconite,beruncial assay Britain, habitat Britain. use, root, liniment, you see? And you had to do all that dusting and keep it and you'd read over all these things, every time you dusted until you got to know them. That was one of the ways of training you or breaking you in to what was materia m the materia medica of the pharmacy. If he today er you don't hear such thing as aconite liniment, belladonna liniment. Extract of bella belladonna. Dandelion juice,Succus delaxica they've been replaced. Then, you see, at certain periods of the years herbs were common, bloom, which a lot of it was used. You used to go with the boss. The boss would cut the bloom, you would put it into the sack, bring it back to the shop and dry it. You might go and collect, oh er what Coliupe Collium, Collium Maculatum,spotted come up, you'd go and cut it, you know, bring it in, get the Succus Conium that would keep you going, you know, sometimes he would he'd say Oh blast you, we used two garlands of it. We better get three garlands this year in case. Ooh we made three garlands last year, we've got two garlands left, we'll not bother. But a lot of the herbs were collected and dried and er used. So it was organized collecting of Well the usually collected himself. Er we was on the beach, you know sea front, he'd er gathered some er brands of seaweed for making what they call Irish moss,Caragium And that would give you a good think emulsion, you see then in the, what was the cod season, cod fishing, you'd go down to the harbour where the er fishing boat came in and where they were cleaning, and you'd get the boss would have arranged that you get the cod's livers. Take it back to the shop, in You've seen these old milk churns. Well I fill the milk churns with the livers and take them up to the shop. Go back and get another, you see? Get another. Make your own, produce your own cod liver oil. Gosh. And er there were two grades of it. There was the the cod liver what would for animals, that well, the method that used to be used, put it into the copper boiler. A big copper boiler, with a little warm water and the heat would separate the oil, you see? And then skim the oil off and drain it. What extra did you have to do for humans? Well you were always One thing you were very careful, you had to see that the gall bladder was removed. that it was just the liver. And sometimes you just used pressure, you see? Put it in and screw it round and round and round, so that the pressure would fetch out the oil. I can remember when the er Going down to the harbour for salt and we were getting from the manufacturer, it was at the time, getting cod liver oil, you know, ready prepared for us which was a quite a saving. As far as we were concerned. In labour. But er you had all like cold cream, special hairs tonics, rosemary , Eucalyptus hair tonics. You made those in the back shop. And having made a couple of Winchesters, that's er the big bottle, which was er eighty ounces. They were filled into two ounce, four ounce or, you know, depending on the size you you stocked and sold. Are they The chemist then would have to buy in all the bottles. Oh he bought in the bottles, you see? And er y you gave in perhaps say er two gross of three ounce bottles, two gross of two ounce bottles, four gross of four ounce, depends how they were used. And they were stored in the back in the back shop store, you see? And er kept there, then you had in the front shop, you had a range of er hair er drawers with your drugs, your drugs at the bottom. you pulled it down ad you got the various size bottles in this we got half and one ounce, here two ounce, further up three ounce. All the way round. When you got the bottles did they have to be cleaned? Yes. Cleaned and dried. So it was a lot of work? Oh lot of work. I mean the bottles weren't what you'd call dirty, from having contained medicine or anything like that. They were dirty from transit you see? And packing. So that they just needed more or less scrubbing out and put on Put into drainers, you know just a big piece of wood with holes cut in so that you could fit them in and wouldn't fall off, and dry them over the heat. What did you use to heat? There's only source of heat. any of these. The great thing is if you've got faith in the stuff if you haven't got faith, you needn't bother with it. That's my opinion. And what do you feel about er the new er there are some of them that are very useful but in the majority of cases if the human is functioning well it's producing it's own steroids. And those people that take or get extra, either their body is not producing or they want an extra bit for something so they can run a hundred yards at er in an extra five minutes. But you don't feel that these things are not really proven are they? No. They have quite disastrous side effects on the Er they have well just the same as er some of these weight reducers. they'll take the weight down but look at the side effects. Oh yes it's er no I think there If we just bothered there are enough or almost enough herbs to cure any Most of the common troubles. And do you feel nationalization was good from the medical point of view or? Well yes and no. People stared running to their doctor cut finger,where previous they would have said, oh I'll have a an aspirin and a cup of tea. I'll put a bit of s adhesive plaster around this. I think at times the national health service has been exploited, you know, oh er I am no going out today, I'm no feeling well. I'll go and get the Go and see the doctor. A sick thing, he's off for a week. If we had some method a l a laser of some kind that could measure the degree of pain that Mrs A is supposed to be suffering, it would it'd solve a lot of problems. Mm. remember what it was like during the nineteen twenty six strike ? The nineteen twenty six strike, the o the thing that struck me most of all was, they were going to out the railway men. And at that time the railway was It was private. And the leading man of the railway union went out and bought all the shares he could get his hands on and off the railway company. And he'll not come out on strike. And that's And er it was the railway men not coming out on strike that caused the collapse of the strike. But there wasn't much interference in in Edinburgh. As far as I can remember. I mean we could get about, we got about alright. There's There was food and all that available. Oh no I the twenty six strike er is just a You know a very very big and er you know er railway man, leader of the strike, buying all the shares because he was But that's one of the things, because it was a headline in the Paper. Papers. I see, so coming back to er making the pills and silver on it and gold, was this er sort of foe the aristocracy more? No no. No. No. No. Anybody you know, er it sometimes does work, very keen on a nice appearance you see, that the drug be have a nice appearance and so the had silver coated. No no it wasn't I seen I seen people in the pleasance being silver coated pills. And you wouldn't say that was No. How do you feel, the sort of looking back on life, sort of the difference now u when you were young? Well, how do I feel? I'm grateful that I was born when I was, rather than being a youngster today. Although I have Well I've come through two wars and I remember the relief of Mathaking but I'd sooner that I've was born when I was. Why? Well today it I may be wrong, I hope I am, but it seems to me, everybody is out, you know, oh he gets five bob I want seven and six, he get's seven and six, I want ten. And there seems to be dissatisfaction, greed, I dunno what amongst the youngsters today. And what did you do as er your leisure time as a a young man and? Well, you hadn't got a great deal of money, now you would go for a walk out in Edinburgh, out to black Blackhole because Blackhole was a village. Or you'd go down the er out to Barton and down the side of Armand up and back again. Y you had a a walk Saturday morning, when Saturday morning. I went for a game of golf, I had nine holes. I was a member of Ra er Ravelston Why? It was very easy, I could walk up to Ravelston nine holes, walk back in time. Or I got a garden, I could occupy myself in the garden. I never felt time hanging. Ooh well you got er a l a lecture a couple of lectures every day, well you You couldn't just er press a button and they came out, you got er preparation work. enjoyed lecturing? Yes. And I made many of my own students are still friends. Now we're a bit off Christmas, we've We have had Christmas cards from Norway, Indonesia, Mauritius, Northern Island not to mention the er Scotland and England. But these are from students of well past days. So it's very nice. So well er I had students and they left at as friends. If if we had overseas students, you know er somebody from Zambia or What er people Afro Asians or in Indonesians or something like. Well they were they were coloured, well it didn't matter to me. My wife kept an open door for them and any time Well at the weekend they'd Some of them would drop in, you know, for a chat, aye. Or drop in for tea or supper. I was much more, well I'll not say interested altogether, but much more thoughtful of the condition of er these coloured people. Why? Well a biddy ago now, a Nigerian came to Edinburgh, a student, went to the regular places. No no to let, advertising accomo They wouldn't have him, well what's that? What impression is that going to have on that laddie? So but er the overseas fellow, You know I'll consider just on the same level, and ofte Well I never saw any er what you'd call bickering and biding between the black and the white student. And the u a couple of them would come, a black and a white would be here and no bother at all. But there you are. Did you find that through the years the classes got bigger? That that you lectured to? Well the classes remained steady. You know we could've We limited They were limited to the intake, but we could have er increased I think. We kept a steady increase, you see when the two year course stared first, I think we had eight students, and then it grew, you see. The next year the eight to the final year, there's sixteen the next year until we were getting that the two year course was just as big as the old one year course. And you got er eighty four students first year, eighty four students second tear, that's a hundred and sixty eight students. Oh but we got on. Oh yes. And did you find that the text book they had to use, changed through the years or just the Well of the same text no books. they're they are pretty much the same. The chemistry text books ch And the physics changed, they got a bit more what you would call mathematic mathematical. But you can't math mathematize the making of an ointment or the making of an infusion. They're perhaps little er more about the condition of the granules of a powder used for compressing into tablets, and the coating, how shall we coat it so that it washed away at once, dissolved slowly or anything like that. Yes, that was a big change really wasn't it ? Yes. Coating. Coating. Yes. So that you could get the slow and of course coating the granules before compression. Mm. So that er you get a slow or a retarded er effect or solution rather absorption. Oh yes. I want you to think about it during the in cos it does help if you think about this before . So some time, you know, during the interval or at the end if you could er give them to Heather and then she'll hand them on to me afterwards. Erm, the social, I've got tickets for the social. So if you see erm Right. during the interval. The dinner. Er, if anybody hasn't booked would they please see Elaine either this week or next. Erm I think that brings us to the end of the announcements. Which brings us to tonight's big competition number two. And I have pleasure in introducing our judge, Mark from Chelmsford. Would you please welcome Mark . Good evening. I've been to your lovely new really smashing! Really nice. Erm you know, I mean er all the other places are alright, but this is er I don't know the only one I know of that's with Well with a carpet on the floor. Can, can we have can we have some light on? If someone could crawl under the No th Underneath. fo underneath the you've gotta clo crawl underneath the cupboard. Oh! You found it. Right. Thank you. Okay? The . Right. This one this one is called Ancient Greek. Ancient Greek? Ancient Greek. Yeah, well there's no doubt about that is there? Certainly er, the er in fact, some of them have got titles at the front so Yeah. you know. Anyway, Ancient Greek. It's a a sort of a a candid portrait I suppose. And the reason I call it a candid portrait is because I don't think that the he may have seen somebody there with a camera, but he certainly wasn't posing for the camera. He's appears to be erm not looking at the the cameraman, photographer. So maybe he didn't know he was going to be photographed. But certainly, his er location is correct for the costume. He's got this er I guess he's could he be a priest? I don't know, I'm not familiar with that. But it looks as if he could be an Orthodox er Jewish Orthodox priest. With the long beard and the sort of box hat. Erm the, as I sa already said, the location is correct. Got nice sort of archway here to give a sort of a bit of interest to the erm the bri the stonework behind him. Erm doorway there, always a doorways always add interest to a picture. Erm, they're sort of a little bit intriguing, you wonder what's going on there, what sort of place it is, and so on. And there's nobody else in the picture so we're totally concentrating on him. It does lack a little bit of sharpness this one. Yes. It's not quite as crisp as it ought to be. It's er but the actual tones in it are, are ideal. Beautiful! Nothing wrong with that at all. You've got er, all the tones it should have but, the overall crispness, sharpness I'm afraid, is lost. But I'm not quite sure why. It doesn't look like camera shake. It just appears to be just a fraction out of focus maybe, I don't know. Maybe er could be a camera shake . I it,i it does lack that crispness we feel ought to have there. Have marks out of ten so erm I like the subject, and I like the composition and so on, but it just loses a bit because of the lack of sharpness so a five for that. This Steps. Step. Yeah, right. Slowly got that. Certainly a very simple picture and I believe often that simple pictures are successful pictures. Erm not always, but I think a lot of pictures or photographs erm suffer because people have got too much in them. You know, and, and I I prefer something to be kept as simple as possible and not to try and erm make it too busy. Certainly, the quality of the printing in this one is excellent. Lovely light on the the wall here. The texture's right everywhere through that photograph, it's got nice texture. Cos even in the the shadow area you see there's still nice textures shown on the fronts of the steps here and on this wall here which is in shadow, it's still got th the texture showing through. And, the way those steps go round the corner, up behind the er erm the wall here, I think again, it has a sort of an intriguing effect, you wonder erm where they're leading to and so on. And they're very steep steps. I mean, er you know er, a little bit dodgy. I would think som someone a little unsteady coming down those steps they could be a bit dodgy. But, certainly, I like the shapes, I like the diamond shape of this wall here, the, and I like the tree at the back. Yes, I, I like that one. I think that's an an excellent simple study. It's the sort of picture which people who are not interested in photography wouldn't even bother with, probably, but see what they're missing? So they've done it, I think someone er who's walking along the road, see you standing there taking that picture and say, what on earth are they taking a picture of that for? But I, you know, the end result erm is worth it. Erm I've had a quick look through so I'm trying to remember er what we've got coming. Mm. I'm gonna give that one a ten cos I like it. That was Elaine . Skyscape, Loch Linnhe. I like this one too. I know erm it's got loads of punch. It's got er, impact, it's, it appeared relatively small so you know,to erm it's a fact of life that small prints have a, a lot more to do to keep up with big ones, they have to more impact. I mean, they can er be lost a bit if they're a bit small. But, I, I'm not, you know, because thi but compared with the one that we've just looked at this is small, but it's still got plenty of impact. Now,yo you can imagine what this would be like if it was twenty by sixteen. Just a, to, just trying to illustrate the point that size does matter sometimes. I like the erm lighting throughout this, although it's fairly dark there's nowhere excuse me, on the, on the land which is in bright light, although the sun is still fairly high, so it could be artificially dark, but, nevertheless, you can see detail everywhere. On the water, the ripples on the water are throughout the picture and even on this sort of headland here, something like that, there's even some detail there. So even though the whole thing is in fairly dark tones, there's still plenty of detail. And lovely light on clouds and the water. So, I'm gonna give that one an eight. Eight? Heather . Next one is Fascination. Fascination of watching somebody doing something which you're not familiar with. Probably that's it. Er, that's where the title comes in. Now with people who are at work, who are erm, working with their hobby, or a job, it's always important that it's clear what's going on. I've seen lots of pictures where people are obviously doing something that you just don't know what's going on and that, that is a pity because er er the idea of a photograph is to illustrate what's happening. Now I think er it's clear what's going on here, there's er weaving going on, I'm not quite sure what the material is er but there's certainly a loom with some kind of er, weaving being demonstrated. And it, er, er, cos I say demonstrated because we've got these two people here, er this man and the little girl there who are obviously, erm on a visit to this mill watching what's going on. So i it's a, it's a a straightforward demonstration. And er I think that's er, the actual composition with the three people in it is quite good. It is a little bit weak and it lacks a bit of punch. You know, it's a bit sort of er washed out. I think a bit more contrast added to it would help it does lack a little bit of contrast. Erm I just wonder whether it might not have been better to move round a little bit to the left so we could have seen the lady's hand and sa as well er er and as well as her face, you know, we've gotta get we can see what she's doing, know what she's doing but it'd been nice if you could have included her hands. And er yes i also, I would think, it's a little unfortunate this chap happened to have his hand up on that er post there,yo you know, it's a little bit er ungainly, it's not sort of a very elegant sort of po I'm not su suggesting he should pose for you, but I think, maybe had you waited until perhaps he moved his hand out of the way, it might have been a better erm composition. Erm a five for that. And so Kathle Sorry. Sorry. Kathleen. As opposed to the candid portrait, we've now got a a formal portrait, obviously taken er in a studio or erm with light, well I don't know about pho photographic studio, but certainly lights and a background erm of some nature being used to produce this photograph. Now with photographs of young ladies you need a soft light cast shadows. I'm sure a lot of cliches, you hear cliches from judges er but you know, some facts erm are bound to be repeated with na and with being a photographer you,yo normal female photography you do need er soft lighting, you don't want harsh lights and shadows. The they, there are always exceptions to the rule. This one's, certainly, got very soft lighting. Erm, no harsh shadows anywhere on her face. Nice flaunting of the er the erm the face, her cheeks there. Nice lighting on the hair. And I like the inclusion too, of just a little bit of jewellery, not too much. This earring here, this pendant earring just lifts that area up just a little bit, not too much, not too obtrusive, but just enough for sort of a a highlight catching the pendant earring just to lift it up a little. And particularly I like the background too. I think the erm breaking up of the background with his sort of mottled tones,, or whatever it is, whether it's the background, you know th the background paper or lights, there's lots of ways you can achieve that. And it is important that the background has got some interest, but no so much interest that you've forgotten about the subject. That's a nine for that one. Howard . Western Isles, Scotland. Erm the use of the letter box format here, this long, narrow format is ideal for this type of landscape. Well for most landscapes to be honest. Er, I think fit into the horizontal format le within the vertical, but, when you've got long, sort of, gentle slopes like this, and expanses of water I think if you can narrow it down, as you've done here, that helps too. So I like the the narrow er letterbox format. The other good thing about this is the recession through it. The, the way the hills get lighter as you go through until we get right to the back and you finish up with a little bit of erm very light cloud beyond the hills in the distance. It's not a great exciting er, picture. It's not, the light over the water is perhaps a little bit disappointing. Erm i it doesn't it's got plenty of ripple on it. I'm surprised that we're not picking up a bit more a few more highlights, it's a bit. It hasn't got any sparkle to it. But I think, it looks a, a bit like a ploughed field, you know, but when you, it's obviously, water but it, it doesn't look wet like water should do. Now the boat there with, with the wash, yeah that's fine. But,the light, I think, is perhaps, the thing which lets it down, just a little. It's a pity really because the hills and so on beyond are, I think, fine cos the, I like the way it's presented and very, very nicely mounted. Just lacks a little bit of er quality lighting. So a seven for that one. Sunshine and Sunshine and Shadow. Sunshine and Shadow. Yeah well certainly er it's got the, the title which explains erm, what the photographer was trying to portray. These er on when they look to be the cloisters of a cathedral, although, when you look through they seem to open out into street, so I'm not quite sure exactly what sort of building it is. It seems to turn into a street when you get beyond you know, those archways. Erm again, it's not quite as sharp as I would like to see it, it's a little bit er unsharp . Erm, another thing too it's a, just a pity that that chap there, well both of them actually are standing whe pity they couldn't be persuaded to move over a little bit because they are, you see this chap in a dark suit, he's right against that very dark archway there. The only real reason you get to know that there's somebody there because you can see the legs and the sort of, sort of head, but yo it does tend to get a bit lost against the background. So you're not standing in quite the right place. I like the idea of the sort of archways looking out to the right letting light sort of fall in and it, and make a nice pool of light ideal for somebody who's standing, but he's not standing in quite the right place. He's not picking up the, the light. Which is a shame. Nice archways there. Very interesting shapes in the roof. But it does lack a bit of erm quality. A five for that. The Closed Door. Another door. Another very simple you can er another simple picture. Very similar to the steps that we saw Mm. erm earlier on. This one, I think, is nice. I don't think it's quite as nice as the, the previous one. It's er erm a little bit more straightforward a we're looking straight onto this wall, looking straight onto the steps, and we're looking straight onto the door, so everything is looking, sort of erm full-faced as it were and I think that makes for a less interesting composition than the previous one. Being sort of at an angle to it and, but i it first of all it allows you to see textures in the wall and things rather better, erm and it makes for generally speaking, a more interesting composition. You see, these steps here tend to look as if it's a pile of beams or something with a door standing on top, but you quite clearly see those steps, but you don't get the depth of the steps so everything is a bit flat. The whole thing tends to get flat. Certainly, it's a very interesting door, and it's got nice er positioning of the of the er and so on. And I'm sure that there is a the thing is, it's quite a nice photograph but I'm not too happy with the actual view. I think it would be better, in my own experience, move over to that er the left a little bit just to go for a slightly more interesting composition. A seven for that one. Eileen . That's er Mm. the name of the place is it? It's a co is that the one with the castle? It's a castle. Yeah. Yeah. That's is Eileen's then. Oh! Right. Oh sorry, I've got, I've got written here. No. I'm sorry. Print number eight. It's got Oh yes. Yes. Yeah. Mm. Yes it is. Erm, now this a a castle which I'm sure has been photographed thousands and thousands of times. Erm, I can never remember the name of it and I, I, and I forget it by the time I get home, but , the name of the castle that is. But it's erm often photographed a I've don't recall seeing it photographed from this actual point. Er, er it I think the whole place is sort of over the other side there's a, sort of a bridge there and possibly, I mean, I'm sure that I've seen a photograph from the other side . Erm with this sort of landscape I always credit the type of lens which is being used, and I think a wide angle lens has been used here, because we could see there's been a lot of interest created in the foreground, and this is what a a wide angle lens will do for you in, in, in a landscape. It will create interest in the foreground which I think is important and often, especially looking across water an expanse of water if you haven't got any interesting detail in the foreground yo you have to go a long way into the picture before it begins to get interesting. So, don't forget the foreground, and the best way to emphasize the foreground is with a a wi wide angle lens. Something wider than a standard lens. A thirty five millimetre or something that'll be quite erm yeah, I think the er cloud and sky is nice and the foreground is nice. It's just a pity that the castle itself is a little bit indistinct I mean, when you stand away from it you can't er you can hardly see the castle there and er, it is an attractive castle, photographed many times but I would just like to see that shown up a little more in the picture. And I think possibly you could er, with a little bit of erm er slightly more contrasting in the back maybe. Er, and I think perhaps that castle could be persuaded to show up just a little more than it does. It does tend to get lost in the boundaries. Erm another seven for that one there. Fingers Crossed. Yeah. Fingers crossed for luck. Yeah it's a I would guess that this er we you know, when they come down and the strips and they go back up again, it looks as if perhaps that's what's happened here because the the rope has sort of got this twist in it and one imagines that when they jump down it's not quite er er right and so perhaps he's on his way back up again. But er, nevertheless, I think er it's a, obviously a spectac a spectacular thing to watch. To stand down here and see this idiot who's gonna leap off there. Erm er it's quite a spectacular thing to watch, I imagine if you're there. As a photographic subject, but yeah, I, it's simple and it's, it's a bit sort of small, the actual, I don't know how you could make it any bigger but I do don't know what you could do. Really, the, the real point of interest is the chap who's doing the person rather, who's the doing the jump. Erm I suppose having this great exten extended crane there does give a good impression of height, but, the action is here and i it's a little small in the frame and, but although I'm sure, you know, there's quite a fe I imagine there's a lot of people standing around watching and so on, but as a photograph at the end of the day I'm not sure it has quite enough impact to be erm terribly interesting. It's a an interesting thing to do, I'm sure, er but erm maybe you should have the jump taken the photograph on the way down. But er yeah, it's, it's I find it loses er, a little bit of interest fairly quickly erm because it's, the main subject, the chap jumping down, I think the road was nicely shown, but perhaps if you could have just had a, a longer lens just to make it a bit more important in the picture. Er, five for that one. Leica Three C, manufactured nineteen forty nine to nineteen fifty. Well Well this to, to photograph anything, this just happens to be a camera and I suppose that would appeal to a lot of camera collectors to people that I er er who I work with, people I know, friends and that, they know I'm interested in photography and they always ask me about cameras and I hate it! I and I say well, you know, I'm not really interested in cameras. Oh! Alright. No, I'm interested in photographs but not so much in cameras. I, I'm interested in the cameras which I use and that's it. So, I really know nothing about Leica cameras, I've never used one, I don't particularly know anything about them. Cos this happens to be a camera but it could just as well be er an electric toaster, or any, any inanimate object taken er, in this fashion, and the thing you've got to do if you take a photograph of an inanimate object er, like this, is to light it correctly, er it's got to show all the erm, detail finely, and it's got to have good quality in the printing. And I think this one does. I think the lighting on it is excellent. When you look at the erm the, all the engraving around the various controls and the nerving on the knobs here, all very nicely lit. And even, although you can't read it all, it's very hard because it's sort of at a an oblique angle. Even the engraving and writing on the top on, on, on the top of the viewfinder here is nicely lit, you can see that it's er er, the light is catching all the various edges of the engraving on the top. So, very nicely lit. Erm where it has lost a little bit of the quality of the lighting is round the base. You see, especially here, that sort of erm white metal bit, the er brushed chrome sort of finish on that tends to get a little bit lost in this white background. It doesn't here, that's fine, it's great here, but, at the bottom because it, it's not being lit quite so well as the top you're tending to lose a little bit of quality, especially there. Not so much there, little bit better there, but that bit so, okay, it's er, you've set yourself a task to do a sort of a lighting exercise to photograph this camera er so,yo you you know, you must really control the lights and the do the best you can. But I think you've done very well, with just one little weak area round that but but it's not easy to do, you've got a very light background and you've got a very dar presumably black body of the camera so you you've got a very contrasting to start with. So, to get the exposure right and get the the whole thing right throughout is, is not an easy task to do. And this has almost worked, just a slight there. So, a seven for that one. Seven. Yes. Sarah. Very nice er nicely presented er print. Lovely mounting and very clean and crisp. And I often say that young ladies who are looking over their shoulder like this, you've gotta be careful of the neck because when they turn round and look over their shoulder you get creases in the neck, and there is a slight crease in the neck there but most of it has been disguised by covering it with her hair, so look out for that when you have a young lady, or anybody, looking over their shoulder, particularly with young ladies, when they look over their shoulder like that it does cause creases in the side of the neck which can be unsightly. Erm I think you've been conscious of that and have made sure the hair has covered the creases up. Erm the light on her hair is excellent. Very nice lighting on her hair. Again, that sort of mottled background, I don't know whether it's the same background, but it's very similar to the one we had earlier. This time we've er included her hand and because she's got nail varnish on er, you've got the sort of highlights coming from the nails which tend to accen accentuate her fingers. However, they're not too obtrusive, they do sort of when you're looking at her shoulder here and her hand wasn't there I could well imagine that you'd get a bright highlight off her shoulder, so maybe putting hands there it has helped in er, er to, to eliminate that. So, yeah, I quite er like the use of the hand in that one. Sometimes hands can be a bit of a problem, but I don't think it is there. Erm I think it's just a little too much looking over their shoulder because sh to, to, in order to look at the camera she's having to keep her eyes over really,yo you know really over to her er right, and erm it tends to be a little bit erm uncomfortable. I think perhaps not quite so much, you know, bending of the head might have been slightly more comfortable. Nevertheless, I think that's good. Eight, for that one. Gordon . Green Bottles. Green Bottles ha? I'll take your word for that. Hanging on the wall. Yes they look like erm yeah I thought they were gourds when I first saw them. I thought they're good gourds. Good gourd ! And by, Gordon. Yeah. Yeah, they are gourds. Are they? Anyway yeah, there's three of them which is good er number to have. Any subject er three seems to suit, all odd numbers, funny enough, seem to better than o even numbers, I dunno why, but erm maybe I've been told that by so many judges I begin to believe it. Erm, but, yeah, I think three is a good number. The third one up here, the small one, is a little bit sort of lost because it's against er, this sort of cavity light here so that one tends to get a little bit lost. These two are quite erm clear. Erm the actual shape of them is er quite quite interesting and fairly unusual shapes so that's er, an interesting feature. I don't find the the the overall thing terribly interesting. I don't think it's a er maybe it's because the background, I think, I'm just trying to make up my mind why it loses a bit of interest, and I think what happens is, that the background being, having all this foliage which is lots of light pouring on er, all this sort of twiggery round here is er picking up lots of highlights and that tends to detract from the fairly plain shapes and smooth surfaces of the gourds. So, so, I think the background, I think, as I said earlier on that keep the photograph simple and I think this one, perhaps, has got too much background. It's one of those where the background tends to overpower the subject. Certainly that one is totally overpowered by the background and these ones are tending to be just a little bit. I think it would have been perhaps better if you, somehow er, maybe er I dunno, you could erm, nothing to do with you so you ri you're not in a position to be able to move them erm but if it was possible to put them in a, a different situation I think would have made a more interesting picture. Er, six for that one. The Porch Way. This is a, you know, this is the third one which is er was similar to others we've had, the steps and we had the other door and a few steps down, and then, this is all similar types of photographs and all taken from different sort of angles. Erm, one, the first one, nice angle to the stairs and the other one looking straight on, and this sort of half and ha half. It falls between the two. I think the composition again is simple, which is, nice light, the simplicity of it. Er I particularly like the land that it's on there, that adds a bit of interest to it, it's another view, another sort of point to attract your eye. But I think perhaps, that in a way that becomes the main point is that, although it's called The Porch Way, I mean, you know that's fair enough because you can see it is a porch, it's not clearly defined we we've got this sort of two pillars here, and a little bit of green, so they're losing a bit of shape of the porch er and this becomes the sort of erm main er point of the picture. I it it's, I think the porch itself again is we're not showing the shape of the porch and the details of the porch in sufficient detail and it's a pity really because I think that there is a, a nice photograph to be had there. Er again, it's all down to where you're going to stand to take the photograph, and I'm not so sure that you I think you've gone a little,no you know, I, I criticized the other one a bit, from the same person I think it possibly is because it's the same style, the same sort of mounting. Erm but I think it's gone a bit too far the other way this time unfortunately. But, it's nice quality, very good printing, erm another seven for that. Ha. Ne next one is no title. Well you couldn't really get much more simple than that. Just this post on a pebbly beach somewhere, er with some very nice clouds in the in the sky. And I think er the quality of the printing is again very good. The clouds are nicely shown, the pebbles are nicely shown. And, as this post here, with, whatever it is, it looks as if it's got some paddings on the ground, maybe a, a boat sometimes gets moored up to it and that's just to stop the boat er banging up agai maybe the tide comes in that far, I don't know. Erm the actual post I liked, I'm glad it's standing up above the horizon because at least that way, you know,i it does it's given some dominance in the picture. But once you get down below the horizon you get to look round this area here where there's some rope tangled round, some kind of padding, it does tend to get a little bit lost amongst all the pebbles. So maybe, it would have been better if you could have even got down a bit lower and to, to, to get more of it from the horizon. I think the idea of using this in the foreground er, as I was saying, with landscapes, and the same thing applies to seascapes as well, it's nice to have a bit of detail lower down, but I don't think that the the background, the sort of, main part of the photograph is terribly strong. I think it really needs to be the whole photograph needs to be given more strength on making more of this post here. I think the bit that stands up above the horizon is fine, I mean I think that gives you a good idea of what it would have been like had you been able to get the whole, or not perhaps the whole of it, but a lot more of the post up above the horizon simply by getting down lower. So six and a half for that one. Six and a half? Yes. Thank you. Next one is The Shrimper. I think this is a chap Yep. wading out there with a shrimp net. Erm well perhaps . And again, we've got three boats. Er three, a nice number to have of any subject. And they're nicely separated. But often boats moored up on the river tend to blend into one another, but these three boats are completely separate, separated, they don't overlap each other at all . Erm although we can, if you look closely you can see that this chap has got a shrimp net in his hand, er so you get a fair idea of what's going on. There's a someone here with a couple of dogs. Erm but,he's a bit sort of lost in it, he's, he doesn't have any dominance really. I think he's overpowered by the three white blobs of the boats. It tends to it tends to be a bit lost in the earthiness of the mud and the water. Er, you can see that this is a I don't know whether, it appears to be darker at the centre than it is round the edges, I don't know whether you tried to burn it in just a little bit in the middle, holding back the edges, but it's, it's got sort of a darkish patch i in the centre. Erm yeah I, I, it's the idea's there but I think it does lack a little bit of impact. Th the boats are fine but the the main human interest in it does tend to be, in fact, the personally, the two dogs has has more prominence in the picture than this chap, which is a pity. I think possibly a long lens, just the having sort of, the two boats, again, that might have been better. And a five for that one. Dusk on Derwentwater. Yeah. Nice lighting on the hills beyond this is a very good example of er putting interesting detail in the foreground in the way that tall bit of wood there is really making quite a a, an interesting subject in itself in the foreground. Also, the fence which runs out into the the lake er just breaks up the the distance between the the piece of wood and the bank. Because the water in itself er, I'm sure that when you're there it's erm it's a beautiful place to be, but the water in itself in this photograph has not got the best of light on it. You don't get the good, really good light until you get across the water and out onto these hills and that's where the the good light is in that erm top i third of the picture I think is where the real quality is. Erm, the bottom of the picture, perhaps not quite such good quality, but certainly it's got er, interesting detail. Lovely clouds. That, sort of, it's got the, it's one of those sort of days I think when you've got lots of cloud about broken clouds, so every now and again the sun will come through and light up different areas of the picture. Er, and that's, that's the sort of light you do need for landscapes, and that's happening over here. Just not quite such lowish light on that er, foreground, but certainly interesting detail there. An eight for that one. Mm. No title for the last one. You see this post standing up here now we've got down a lot lower this time, in fact, I think, it's the same post. Yeah. The erm much, given much more dominance in the picture by making it stand right up above the horizon. And I think this one is better for several reasons, I think you can quite clearly see now once you've had a chance to look at this, the other one we saw, we, we eliminated this boat, we eliminate that post and this boat, or rather we just have this post and the sea beyond. Now, same sky It's the same. but I think now you've included this little foreground it really brings the whole picture to life. And a very good example, if you put these two together just to see what you can do by moving round to a different viewpoint. Er, don't always take the first one and that you take loads of picture around, if you see an interesting subject, make sure you move around and take loads of pictures, and then select the one for printing. And I think this is a very good erm er illustration of that fact. All you had to do here was to move back a few steps and you've made it much more interesting in the foreground. So a much more satisfying picture erm yeah I think that one works much better. So, and eight and a half for that one. Gordon . Okay, so we start judging? Well yo yes you can do Mark. Let's get three of copies and if you do three of the colour you'll be half way. Yeah. We should be. Alright. Right. Okay er That's called It's My Teddy. Yeah, and I think the way she's cuddling the teddy bear and that expression on her face seems to, to, to suit the title. And also, the use of the yellow background, I don't know, erm whether it was deliberately chosen or whether she just happened to be standing there, but the yellow background makes it stand out. Erm, you know, it's the sort of picture which captures your eye, and this is one thing you should try and do with your photography is to capture the onlooker's eye or eye, and having the yellow background, it does. I like the er, you know, the nice little grin on her face, and the way she's cuddling the teddy, erm teddy that happens to be a rabbit, it leaves us the teddy is a rabbit you could say. Mm mm. Er yeah, I think that one's quite a nice family album er portrait. It's not a great competition-winning portrait, but er certainly, it's fine, sort of family album stuff and the sort of thing which'll be in the family for many, many years to come. When she's sort of, twenty five or thirty, someone will drag this out and say, oh no! Not that again. But er nevertheless, it would be kept er for many, many years and quite deservedly so. Erm a seven for that. Seven. Now Dusk at Finchingfield Mill. I think the er one of the things which helps this one, is the way it's been mounted. I think this large mount, tends, somehow tends to accentuate the er the windmill certainly the colour, the sort of creamy colour of the mount, and the creamy colour of the windmill go nicely together, as do the sort of more subtle colours in the sky. And er, it's difficult to know quite how to photograph windmills. Er, you know, do you include all the four sails? Or do you move around and just erm concentrate on one or more of them? Do you have them going right to the edge ? You've gotta make up your mind how you're going to photograph them. And I think this one is reasonably successful. I often think that perhaps putting the hub of the sails in, more or less in the centre of the picture perhaps, not the best place, but I think because in this case, we've got a lot of trees down to the bottom here. Although the, the hub of the sails is more or less in the centre of this photograph it's not in sent not in the sense of, of the area of vision because you've got a lot of dark area here so that tends to move the centre of vision so it becomes this bit, if you like, and so that's not in the centre there. So, it doesn't really matter so much in this particular case. A seven for that picture. This one is called Nonnie. Nonnie, Nonnie, Nonnie. Nonnie, Nonnie. Erm the idea of, sort of, close cropping as you've done here and, you know, that's quite a an acceptable and well-known method of showing facial portraits. And I think it does work nicely because it,th most of the frame is filled with the girl's hair and she's got nice blonde hair, nicely lit, that erm is a good way of showing off her head. The light on the hair is fine. Where it's not quite so good I feel is on her face. You got this, sort of shiny nose and quite vast shadow there and then quite bright highlight on her bottom lip. So the light on her face is just a little bit too harsh. I don't know whether a reflector or a, an umbrella was used, but it does need something, er, some form of lighting which is a little less harsh. I find that there's, you know a lot of shade on her face er which is a shame. I like the use of the pe the pearls have made, I think that's good. And the earring does a very nice job there. Tt. Just a, I find that she almost looks as if she's been out in the sun and that it sort of looks like very strong sunlight on her face which is a shame really. Needs to be softer, needs to be softer and that can be done by using a a diffuser over the light, using an umbrella, any way that you can soften, like using a reflector, all kinds of things to do. Erm yeah it's a pity really. Er, a seven er for that one. Next one, Two's a Pair. And although these are obviously er at some kind of show because if you look beyond the horses you can see there are marquees and so on in the background. So it's presumably er a competition or a or er demonstrating the old fashioned agricultural machinery. It's obviously a show, and I mean you could well imagine that in the old days you need horses were really used to do a full day's work, they didn't have quite such er nice clean tack a as these ones . Certainly they are magnificent animals. And they are, and they're magnificently photographed. The two erm handlers here, I don't know whether there's one who's handling and the other one's just sort of having a chat with him about but, you know, they they're important in the picture but they're not er you know, the horses completely dominate the, the two people in the picture. And it's nice, I think, to include this plough, if that's what it is. No it's, yeah it is a plough. Er, this is a harrow plough. Er, so it's a nice to include that lovely bit of old machinery as well. Very handsome pair of horses, nicely photographed. It's not got the creative thing, which, I mean, competition, to get a a ten, or a nine, you've gotta really have some creative element in it, this hasn't quite got that, but it is a very strong picture and, and very nicely photographed so I'll give this one, eight. Eight. Nigel . I don't know if I saw, or that one. Yeah. If you'd like to do this one Mark then you can have a break Yeah. and tha you're, you're Okay. just over half way. Alright. Erm well he's certainly you know, he would go ideally with the horses, I don't know whether this one is at the same show er Ha. show or whatever, I, Mm. I could well, could well be the same event as that because he certainly looks to be the right sort of character. Got a lovely erm weather-beaten face and the way he's wearing his hat. I dunno, I dunno whether he's erm he really could be, I mean he could be the thing is he could be compared to a hobo. But erm certainly with this style of hat was commonly worn I suppose to his and by the people who work on the land, certainly in this part of the world. But he has got the continental grammar sort of Italians, you know what they're like. Erm, but certainly erm but er he's certainly got an interesting face. And it's nicely lit. Er we, we this time we don't mind that we've got fairly harsh lighting because he's a, someone who's used to being out in the erm all weathers whether it's cold or sunny, I have a feeling mostly sunny. Erm so that's fine, to have a harsher lighting on his face is fine cos it does tend to show up the er the wrinkles in his forehead, under his eyes and his whiskers which is fine because when erm my old portraits of this nature, that's the sort of thing you're trying to emphasize. And I like, I like the way he's got his hat on. Erm if he was local, if he was from Chelmsford we would say he was wearing his hat in the Hollywood fashion, I don't know whether whether that means anything to people who live in Bishop's Stortford but I've always lived in Chelmsford and people who wore their hat sort of at a flaunty angle on the back of their heads were always seem to wearing their hats in the Hollywood fashion. Erm but er then I suppose it doesn't matter where they come from because it's er yeah, very nice. I like that. Right a nine for that one. Gerald . Right. Okay. Yes. But er this is a sort of a you know, jigsaw puzzle, chocolate box that type of thing. Erm, nothing derogatory meant er by that because the reason photographs are used for chocolate boxes and biscuits and things and jigsaw puzzles is cos they're good photographs and they, they're subjects which people like. This is a very nicely lit cottage. You can see that the er erm the texture in the plasterwork, certainly on the front here is nicely shown. And er, I like the fact that we've got similar cottages down here, we've got this one here, but similar ones there so there's nothing in the picture which sort of erm detracts from that er very pretty, that little cottage. Nice sky. And just a hint of sea in the background. Now we, we, the title tells us that's in Cornwall, it doesn't really matter where it is but erm just a hint of the sea, a, a super place to live I should think there. Erm, you know, there's a very nice cottage and just a short walk down the road you're at the se at the sea. And, also I think it's very fortunate that er the two cars that are in the picture have been very nicely disguised by the sort of containers, these brick erm this, this appears to be sort of a stone or a brick wall there with sort of flowers growing in them, which has very nicely dis disguised those two cars that are parked there. So, that's good. There's nothing in the picture I don't, there's not even a television aerial or Mm. anything, there's nothing in there which does, just a few er telephone lines er, going across the skyline there but they're very faint, you can hardly see them, you've gotta look very closely to see them. Yeah, I, I kinda like that one. It sort of grows on you and it, it's er very good quality, er nice colours. A nine for that one. Gordon . Breaking Waves. Yeah. I thought he said er breaking Now, waves . remember I said earlier on in one of the black and white ones that we haven't, we've got some water there which hasn't got nice lines on, well this, this water certainly has. Look at the way those,tha beyond the waves there, that piece of water, a lovely light on it. All the ripples in the waves nicely shown. A very simple picture, again, it's er you couldn't have anything much more simple than this, just two waves coming in onto the shingle beach and er you can almost hear the the the waves rushing u running across the shingle. Erm I think the, the thing about it, which I th the good points about it th are the light on it, the light on the water here, the light on the waves here, and even on this one and also, I think, the choice of mount is very good, that you know, to choose the blue, it may be a bit obvious but I mean I, you'd be surprised what some people do with their mounts. Erm you can, something like this on a red mount or something, you can imagine it would be absolutely hopeless. But to, to, to make it all a very nice gentle sort of colours throughout, including the mount is the right sort of thing to do. I think possibly it needs something just to break up this, sort of, the lines, you just got those bands of waves going across there. Er, would have been nice if there'd been a rock or something for one of them to break over. It's just a little bit sort of er the waves themselves are nice but I think they do need something else in it just to erm break up the linearity of the er er, of the composition. A seven and a half. Tied up. I think. Yes. Yep. Well I'll be nice little er, a very small boat there but because it's, of the colour it has a lot of impact. It's only a tiny little dinghy, two people in there is about as much as you could manage. Erm but it's got impact because of the colour even the the trolley that it's standing on erm, has got er red wheels, and this yellow sort of er towing bar there. No, beg your pardon! It's not a towing bar it's another boat. I thought it was a towing bar for that, but it's another boat sort of down in the in the se se harbour. And that's the colour of the boat. Erm so it's got a, erm a little bit of impact because of the colouring to start with. Erm yeah, it's reasonable quality. It's er good colours on the this stone bollard here. Quite nice colours the lichen and what have you that's growing on there. Erm maybe the the composition, having the boat sort of, the bow of the boat just hidden behind there is perhaps er not be better. Yeah I know if you'd have moved round to the other side that would have been in the shadow so you wouldn't have got those nice bright colours. Er bit of a problem with the contrast too, I think the fact that the boat is white on the inside and the rest of it er fairly dark, I mean this, this is obviously where the brightest area is and that is becoming a bit burned out because erm if it was an automatic camera that was used it's exposed for this consequently over-exposing on the inside of the boat. Especially painted white and it is reflecting an awful lot of light. A seven for that one. In Pastures Green. Mm. Couple of very nice horses. It's er good composition having the two separated like that. You know, often horses do stand close together and they, sometimes you get them overlapping and that is not the best thing to do, it's nice to have them separated if you possibly can. So when you see a pair of horses move round and so that you do get them separated as they are, or any animal, not just horses, any animals really, get them separated, er or any, any object really, it's better to have a little bit of separation. Erm yeah, I think it's a very pleasant picture. It's not it doesn't, it's not got a lot of er excitement about it, it's very pleasant, you can't criticize it for erm exposure, colours are good. So I'm very, it's not a picture which unless you are sort of mad keen on horses that i it's perhaps not a picture which erm will hold your interest for too long. You know, nothing a very pleasant picture er o of a couple of horses, very attractive horses, but if you're not a a horse enthusiast perhaps it hasn't got quite the same impact, er, as it otherwise would have. The er pleasant background, nice light on the horses, but I find the, the subject matter, you know, okay, it's okay but it's not a great competition winning er, picture. A six for that one. Here's somebody having a go at something a little creative. Altered States. Altered State. Yeah, certainly is an altered state. Erm, er you know, I don't, I wouldn't even begin to suggest how this particular effect was achieved. I mean, it er portrait really is the right sort of subject to, to try out this kind of technique because er, it doesn't have impact, and here because the green and the erm er, this,th for want of a better colour, it's really red, it's a sort of purply colour, they're very dark and th the, the actual head doesn't really stand out very much from the from the background, I think the background colour and th they're, they're too much they're too dark and er they need to be, have more contrast. And I'm not so sure that portrait is the best possible erm medium to use, or the best possible photograph to use for this type of er trick. I think that erm modern structure and that sort of thing, this type of treatment tends to work better, I'm not so sure portrait is the right thing to do. Erm er a it's, it's almost an abstract, it's a, you know, if, if one would accept that as an abstract and forget that it's a portrait then it's perhaps works a little better. The two colours don't go too badly together but er I'm not so sure that I would really want that hanging on the wall, I, it doesn't really appeal to me very much. Sorry about that. But another judge will come along and give it a fine mark, but I'm gonna give it a five. The Dordogne. The Dordogne. Mhm. Yeah, I guessed it was certainly vineyards, I'm you know, quick like that, you know. Erm yes, well the high viewpoint obviously is er er a thing which I think makes the picture. It now whether you're taking a portrait or anything at all it's always more interesting I think, if you can take a a slightly different viewpoint, a di whether it's up high or down below, or whatever er i that always adds interest to it. We're looking down here, obviously standing on a hill because here we've got some plants which are on the hillside and there's a river here so we're on sort of a fairly steep slope, I would imagine, down to the river, looking over across these vineyards. Erm nice lighting very good sort of er gentle lighting across the countryside there, nothing very dramatic. Erm, not much drama in the sky. It's a very pleasant picture. Not a great competition-winning shot but er, at the same time it's a, it's a nice enough shot of this particular area. A very beautiful part of France. Erm being that I, one of the bits which I think catches your eye is this little house here, although there's lots of them about, because this one tends to be in a slightly darker area, and for some reason that, the light on there is sort of picking that one out rather more than all the others, and I think that's quite a nice little feature. A seven for that one. That Le Tower D'Eiffel. Ooh! Yeah. Oh! Dear oh dear! I like your French accent. He didn't know he's Yes. Well yeah, as I say very recognizable subject isn't it? I Mhm. I I haven't been to Paris since er ooh a long time a whe last time I went there I was on honeymoon so that's a few years ago. Erm Did you see the Eiffel Tower ? and er so there's a landmark now, I don't think tha that was there when I was there. My wife's been a couple of times si since then but not me. Erm yeah it's a, again, a very straightforward shot of a very well internationally known landmark erm but I think to stand sort of at an angle to this bridge, sort of, so you're, the bridge leads you up to the archway underneath the tower is a nice viewpoint. So you obviously thought about where you were going to stand. It might, you might be tempted to walk along the embankment a little further and, and look along the bridge, and er, sort of straight at the tower. And I don't think that would be anywhere nearly so effective. Much more effective to to get the very attractive bridge in as well. And the the boat going underneath just er at the right sort of time. Yeah, I think that's good. It's not a erm you know, it's, it's, it's not a a sort of print which is going to be exhibited on exhibition walls er er to that extent, but it's a very pleasant erm shot. It's a very competent shot. Not a, pity there's not a, one or two clouds in the sky. An eight for that one. Nigel . Seljuk Peasant Turkey. I do wondered how you were gonna say that George, that, you know that Yeah, I like this one. I think it's a super erm portrait and erm you can see that she's knitting. Er, lovely light on her hands and on her face, and er this lovely quality, nice colours and I think that is a super portrait. Erm the background, can't, having the tree in the background just to fill up the erm the bare sky is ideal. She almost has a three D effect, I er, you know her face really stands out from that background. I, I get a very strong three D impression from her head. She's stan really sa of stands out from the the background. I like that one. Erm be careful with your titles cos it's not easy to title them. That title is perhaps a not quite as straight as it might be, it's got a little bit of a kink in it. Though, using Letraset to title them is not easy to do, you know it's very difficult to keep them on a straight line. Mm mm. Erm but nevertheless I do think that is a a super portrait. I can't really criticize it all really. I'm gonna give that one a ten. Gerald . Over the stile. I think the strong point of this is the light. I mean the lovely golden light on the the grass very late afternoon light I would suggest and it's got this lovely warm colour on the grass. And on this hillside over here. And having someone just climbing over the stile is a good idea with the signpost pointing. It doesn't really matter which way it's going. And er yo you get the impression that it's late in the day, the sky's a bit stormy and maybe it's time to be thinking about er getting home and er I get the impression that that person climbing over the stile is sort of on his way home after having a super day out walking in the the Yorkshire Dales or somewhere like that. And er, the pubs are open. Yeah, well it could be . Yeah, that's very, very nice. Lovely colours and er a very nice light in the, in the sky and on the grass here. Perhaps again, it lacks just a little bit of sharpness which you've lost. The colours, the quality and the colours are fine. The actual quality in the, in the er print the sharpness, er that sort of thing, is perhaps not quite as good as it should be but I still, an eight for that one. Eight? Gordon . Knossos, Crete. Knossos. Knossos. Ka nossos. Ka nossos. Yes, it's a a typical sort of Mediterranean er lighting, or Aegean I suppose is it? Erm if you wanna be really accurate. Er, it's got a very lo strong clear sunlight which er is quite attractive for the type of scene. Not attractive for every subject but for the where you get these old erm broken walls or summat like that, it's ideal for showing up er textures and so on, this type of lighting. This is often why it works, I think, in er, in the Mediterranean er and places in that area. Er just a little bit of cloud in the sky which is good. I suppose you've got to have the tourist there, it's a I find, tourists, they always wear the wrong sort of clothes. I feel a little guilty, but they've always got shorts and T-shirts, which, really, often, to my mind, spoil photographs of places such as this. Erm you know, we would li I don't mind people being in it, but I'd rather, you know, can you imagine that er the Greek priest we had in the very first print I mean he would fit into this er in a, in, in a superb way. Erm so we just have to accept that tourists don't dress in those sort of clothes. Yeah, I think that's a got nice lighting, nice quality in it. Er a seven and a half for that. Brooding Skyline. Yeah I think the, the drama in the sky is the thing which makes this, and the little lighthouse right on the edge of the cliff there showing up quite nicely. You can imagine that er on some occasions with a li just a little more sunlight that er lighthouse would really stand out. Yeah, it stands out reasonably well in this one, but I can imagine it standing out even more under other conditions. Erm the darkening of the edges, I suppose that's been done to create a little more atmosphere in the picture, and I think it possibly does. And there are some people actually on the beach as well, which I think is important because we've got a lot of empty area here, fairly featureless area, but it's nice to have these two or three people er dotted around on the beach. Very nice light on these cliffs over here. Yeah, I think that one works quite well. An eight for that one. Heather . Another studio portrait. Nadine. Nadine. Nadine. She really looks like Sandy Shaw. But er she's got her shoes on there. Shows your age if you can remember. Some of you might do as well. Erm I suppose to most of us here Sandy, Sandy Shaw was . Yeah it's Ha. erm the thing about this title portrait which I always er like to emphasize and is that when you're using props like these stools or any other props at all in this sort of glamour photography then they must be in absolutely pristine condition, and they are here. I just mentioned that so that when you, if you do this type of photography always remember that your props, whatever they might be, must be absolutely in pristine condition. We don't want any chipped paint, or rusty legs on the stools or anything like that. They've gotta be really good er good things. Otherwise it tends to make the whole picture, like, I went to er er one club once and there was a very nice portrait, not unlike this, there was a girl sitting on a stool, rather less clothes on than this girl has got and it was very nicely done except she was sitting on a painted stool and all the paint was chipped and that to me looked really tacky! And I thought ah, you know they're, went to all that trouble to produce a good photograph, and absolutely ruined it with the stool. So, make sure that everything is in good nick. Yes. Erm yeah, I think the pose is quite nice. I think, possibly erm having the two different stools is a little bit er unfortunate. Erm I don't know I don't yo I, I think possibly having that foot up on the stool was perhaps a mistake. Mm. I think perhaps if you could have arranged her so that er this foot somehow was resting down here, well it might have been better. It looks a little uncomfortable er like that. And it looks a little bit sort of set up having that totally different stool brought into the picture. Erm I just wonder whether erm I think that stool there might have been better to have her sitting on that one, not quite so high up and she could have adopted a more comfortable pose and she wouldn't have needed another prop for her foot. So I think perhaps, that's where the picture is not quite right in the, the composition, and also the fact that this stool is sort of being er chopped off along the side as well as the leg. So, I think possibly a little more thought in the actual, I think the actual shape of the girl there, the way she's actually sitting is fine, but er it, it looks as if she's been propped up with, you know, you better put this stool under your foot to hold that up and put this crutch under your arm to hold that up and and so on. It looks as if she's had these things put there to support her rather than actually casually sitting on them. But certainly the lighting's quite nice and I think, very pretty girl and could be better with the better composition. Erm, six and a half for that one. Feeding Quietly. Feeding? Feeding. Ya. Eating. Feeding. It would be, yeah. Well it Quite, quite . I think erm, often when judges, I don't know whether George or any other judges that might be here tonight, one of the things which I as a judge often dread is photographs of babies coming up in competition. Not that I've got anything against babies. But, it's often difficult because quite often they come up and to be absolutely honest they're not that good. So, you start to criticize them and you think oh my God! This is someone's baby in the audience that we're, we're having a go at. But that's not the problem here because I think this one is excellent. I think the light on er the baby's face, I, I dunno whether it's a little boy or a little girl, but it doesn't matter, the light on the baby's face is super. And I certainly love the way that both eyes are catching those lovely highlights! Great big brown eyes. very appealing. Nice light on that sort of, the curls over the forehead. So we've got lovely soft lighting throughout. Erm brighter on the side which is furthest away from us, and the fact that he's er, he or she, is eating a, you know a piece of fruit or something is quite appealing. I like that one. Not quite a ten because I think it's er you know, this hand here perhaps a little bit er obtrusive but certainly I think that one's worth a nine. Elaine . Restored to former Glory. Yeah I can remember when I was about er seven or eight years old I had a a Hornby train which is almost identical, except it was red, I go I think some other people had one as well. Hornby loco we had those things you used to pull out of the cabs and they could go forwards and backwards. Oh lovely! Erm and it was almost identical to that. Very nice quality print. Er lovely I mean,re re restored in absolute pristine condition. Magnificently restored locomotive. And it's standing in the right sort of location in this old station. Erm a little bit of steam around so you do get an impression that it's erm you know, it's alive and working obviously not doing a day's work, but certainly being restored back to working condition. And for anybody who's a, a rail enthusiast would be er, very pleased with this shot. And I think possibly that maybe the little bit of a problem with it, it's a little bit too specialized. It's very good quality, erm yeah, I think it's, it's it's, the quality of it is good enough to put it up for,i in the sort of higher echelon of marks. So I shall er I give that one an eight for the quality. Peter . Blaze What Away. Ah! That's an apt title. Blazing the gun away, Blaze Away. Yeah. A little bit of er thought given to the title of that. I was quite surprised, er during the summer I went to my grandson's school fete and they had a hot air balloon demonstration there and this er, this car turned up with a trailer on the back with, I dunno, probably some name, hot air balloon name on the trailer, I thought oh yes he's gonna show us how to inflate it and i I was quite amazed from the time he unpacked the balloon to the time it actually took off was only ten minutes. I was really quite impressed! I didn't realize that they could be got ready in such a short space of time. But anyway, very dramatic shot looking up into the mouth of the balloon with this huge flame going up. I guess th that you must have be actually been in the basket. We don't get the impression erm of whether you were airborne at that stage. I would think if you weren't, you must have been very nearly. Perhaps yeah I think you must have been airborne at that stage to be er, had such a enormous flame going up into the balloon. Very, sort of, eye-catching because of the nature of it. And I think it's quite nicely exposed er to show the detail in the erm the burner. You can see the gas burner here th quite a lot of detail, a hand rail or something around it there, and all the, the details in that burner are quite nicely shown. But most of all obviously the, the great roar y you know, the tremendous noise that they make. Or I believe they have got some quieter ones now. Erm a seven for that one. Seven. Ferry Zy de Zi That's nice . Looks like a mini Battersea Power Station. , I dunno . Erm yeah I think those three chimneys there are from a, I dunno, is it, looks as if it could be a kiln or something, you know. Er, it could be, be a pottery, I don't know. It, they, they certainly look as if they are sort of intended er to heat things up. That's obviously a furnace Kiln. at the bottom of each one of those. But nice light on the chimneys and on the sky, and throughout the picture really. I think that's quite intere find a, a nice composition. And the thing which really makes it are the three chimneys, without those, I think the rest of it would be okay, but not terribly exciting. I think the three chimneys are vital to the er the strength of the picture. Quite nice natural colours. Yeah I think that is er it's not a great competition- winning shot, but I still think a seven and a half for that one. Seven and a half. The next one is no title. Well it doesn't really need a title, it's a er it could be anywhere it's, it, it, sort of got that hint of west country, but it doesn't really matter it's, we're not interested in where it is, we're interested in the the final image. And er I think the that's quite good. Although there's some, but these sort of pictures they always look darker than they actually are because you can see the sun is still pretty high up, so, I imagine that the surrounding scene was still in quite sunlight, but, looking straight into the sun, as we are here, albeit behind the clouds it does have the effect of darkening everything down. Th the strong highlight on the reflection on the water obviously is a thing which makes the picture as, and also the, the sort of rays of sun coming down through the cloud. Just enough light around to make out the that tree there, and a little bit of detail in the in the foreshore and obviously the headland. But erm yeah, it's, it's er good for what it is, but I think this has been done many times before and er I sh would think that everybody's seen some just slightly better than this, but it's quite a nice er sunset. A nice reflection on the water. Er, a six for that one. Olive Trees. Ah! A pity there, I was gonna sort of le air my knowledge and say a and say look at these olive trees. Yes, well, obviously I think, you know they, quite obvious what they are. Erm I think again, the choice of the mount is good bu you know we tend to associate olive trees growing in hot erm erm fairly dry areas, and I think the choice of the mount colour accentuates that. Erm I think possibly just the trees themselves are we you know,th okay they're olive trees, so they're a little bit unusual, we don't get too many olive trees growing in this country, but I'm not so sure that they're as er that attractive to make a, a photograph solely out of the olive trees. I think, er you know, they're just a, you know, if, if they were erm elm trees or something like that, or you know blackthorn trees here and you'd taken them in this country, you'd say, oh there's a couple of blackthorn trees! And here we've got a couple that happen to be olive trees, and I, I'm not so sure that just the fact that they're olive trees really is that important. And I think perhaps it's it lacks a bit of importance, you know, it hasn't got the strength erm to stand up on its own. It really needs something else. We need a donkey in it or something like that, you know just to erm be in keeping with the situation, a donkey there would be, would be nice. But the trees on their own, it's like a scene waiting for something happen. It, it's a bit empty. So a six for that one please. Deserted Well Shore. The last one. well guess what? Deserted Shore. That's right. I think you said that. Someone sent the boat over ! You know the You couldn't move around a lot. Move around a bit more a bit more Tip the boat over. the camera. And you've got a third photograph. Yeah, I, I think again, this er deserves a good, it's a good exercise to do this sort of thing, taking colour and black and white because you can then decide whe whether one medium has got an advantage over the other or not. And you can, you know you can argue about it, it's a good talking point, good discussion point, and I think you you will get different opinions er to, whoever you speak to. But certainly the fact that this is being in colour, you know, that boat which is lying there becomes much more important. The red sort of er erm bit round the top of the boat is er becomes important, as does the colour in the sky. So it, this has some things in the picture gain importance, although I still the black and white ones. Er, now you've chosen this time to eliminate the other boat, we know there's another boat around about here somewhere, and we know there's another post here, so erm but if this was shown in isolation we wouldn't have known that. And I think this one stands up quite nicely on its own. Very nice quality. Lovely sky. I, I particularly like the sky in that one. Erm, I think possibly again, if you'd got down a bit lower this sort of little rise in the ground there, that er that's a, it's erm what do you call it? A breakwater would have just risen up above the horizon and come, become slightly more important. But still, I still think that's quite good. I'll give that one an eight as well. Heather . I must er Thank you Mark. That was the last one. Could we have the lights please. While George is er doing the marks, I might call on Gerald please to give the vote of thanks. Evening everybody. Can you hear, hear me over there? Yes. Yes. Thank you. Yeah? Once again, Mr has done us proud. I've heard hundreds of judges in the last few years and Mr is one of the very few who, in, in every picture delivers a very picture. He comes up with a little piece of advice on how to make that picture, or the colouring, or the mounting better. And you don't often see the every picture he tells something, something nice about it. And compared with mine as well you see. About this time last year I think it was the same week he came there were five judges that he picked every year for fifteen years. Oh! And despite , you know, managed, he somehow he'd get them through and get . But we've had a very good evening and we must thank Mr for it. So, in our usual way, a vote of thanks. Thanks very much Mark, you've given me the hardest part. Anyway, erm on the night monochrome prints Elaine and Alf tied with twenty four. Gordon had twenty three and a half. Heather had twenty one and a half. And Gloria had sixteen. So aggregation then with number one, we have Gordon leading the way with fifty and a half. But Alfie was second with forty nine and a half. Oh! So there's not a lot, lot in that. Heather is forty six, she's third. Elaine is fourth with forty four. And technicolour, on the night er top of the shop tonight was Gerald who gave the vote of thanks, who got twenty six and a half. And but, we have Nigel , Gordon , and Heather Tt! all with twenty three. Vince has twenty two. Bill and Elaine have twenty one each. Erm aggregating again with number one Gerald is leading the way with fifty two and a half. And then we have erm Nigel with forty nine. And then, Gordon and Heather both with forty six. Elaine with forty five is fourth. And Peter forty four and a half is fifth. Thank you George. Well done George. Thanks. Right, well next week is the auction. Er we have got some, one or two expensive items so bring your money bags along. Er, if anybody's got any items that they haven't told me about tonight and they go before perhaps you'd be kind enough to give me a phone call. And if you could get here by half past seven those of you who have got items, it'll be much appreciated cos it takes quite a time to to set them out. Er, the coffee next week is going to made by Jane and Peter . Er, next week will be the last week for selling tickets for the social so if you'd like to come tickets next week. And if you haven't made arrangements about your dinner after Christmas, would you please do that now. I'll leave you to say goodnight, thank you for coming . You alright babe, yeah? Yeah. put in the car. Mm. to work. work? Mhm. Mm. have one piece of ? Two pieces. It's whole babe. Mm. Eh? Need a to do it. What's the address? Some street like Sunny Bank Close. Sunny Bank Close. Ooh it's horrible and cold. Oh it's so cold it's unbelievable . Unbelievable . Sunny Bank Close Walsall? Mm? Hope it's not a new one. Ah it could be actually. Sutton. Says like street like, ah s see that's street Oh must be , yeah. That must be it. Please lend a hand I'm only a person won't you listen Oh oh oh! It's so cold, it's fucking Want some petrol, we want some batteries,I need some cigarettes. I suppose it goes all the way round does it? Erm I don't know if it does erm but it does. Sun comes up, it's Tuesday morning . I can hear some trousers. Fucking horrible taste in trousers. Think he's been playing golf hasn't he or something? I don't know . I hope so for his sake. golf Hardly. I presume so, no one would turn up at home Or maybe he's gonna play golf later. But they are nice houses. Mm. I don't think I'd like to live in one. I would. I don't like big estates like this. I'm not sure. I don't know. but that's Close as well though. Innit? Yeah. The sun comes Mm they are nice houses. on a Monday morning the houses it's just estates big estates. reminds me of? Neil 's ex player. Oh why? Oh it's just that you know, I mean it's exactly, exactly the same as his house. It's alright for a couple, if I had kids there's no way I'd live here. Nowhere to fucking go for the kids. It's exactly, exactly the same as his house. Oh well that's out the way, let's be home. Alright. Aye don't bring it back. I hope the picture's alright. only use the fucking one of those. Yeah . Try a little head shot of them. If the er the house is now worth two hundred and twenty five thousand they make a fourteen thousand pound profit don't they?that happy. Well I dunno, dunno what they're looking for. I don't think they're looking for Well I suppose they wi they will be happy cos they're er conservative people. He look like just, just look like someone off Jes Yes Minister don't he? Yeah . Didn't wanna give his wage away though did he? No did he heck. Makes a lot more than that. I don't really like asking people that, you have to ask them and I don't know, I'd tell people it doesn't really bother me, Aye it depends in what sort of area, I mean you know, I don't think I'd tell anyone public cos the news team would know what we're paid and I hate news team fucking hate the bastards. You were gonna work for them at one point Rich. Ooh well I was absolutely skint Gav, you know I was on my knees Gav. I know. And I didn't. They offered me it, I turned it down again. Said yeah and then I changed my mind as soon as I got out the fucking door. Have you ever been in the office? No I've not. Shit! It's so dirty. Is it? Yeah. Yeah. It's big, bigger than ours. Well different design, different structure and Well I've been in the Daily Mail's office, presumably much the same. But I don't know. Yeah once I'd got there, they'd offered me it er and I went home and thought about it actually thought about having to work for them, you know, not just to Yeah. a story for them decided I couldn't do it. Try to shit on occasionally. Just couldn't do it. Simple as that. What's in the bag babe? Magazine. What magazine? Oh. Did you buy any ? No. Oh. Oh dear Cos we've not got any have we? I was gonna buy some but I thought you usually buy some so I was gonna, went down and completely forgot about it till I got back to work. Did you phone me ? Had you phoned well I didn't know if you'd phoned after I'd rung you, or before I'd rung you. I got back and they said erm oh Gav's r Gav did ring you and your mum. And I said oh when was that and she said just after you'd gone to the bank and I said oh I've just spoken to him. Why did, had you rung me afterwards? Eh? When did you ring me? Did you ring me before I rung you? Yeah. Oh that's alright then. What are you saying well did I ring you? Cos I thought you were returning my call. No. Well I've been out all afternoon so I wondered if you'd phoned in this afternoon. No. No that was the first time I'd rung. So I rang you and then Lyn said yeah I'll get her to call you and then you rang me back so it was as though Lyn had give you the message to call me No I rang on the way back from the bank. Oh. You're very cute. I know I am. I try. I'm very tired. Are you? Mm I was How many's there meant to be? six . One person makes a lot of difference. Does it? Just the wrong amount for a Shall we go and see what Terry and Lindsey are doing? Mm. Certainly will. I got another erm magazine but only because this one had erm a special supplement all about the Alliance and Leicester explaining about mortgages and everything Oh right. but it doesn't go into it very thoroughly but erm you can send off for like an information pack. Oh right. I will do. Yeah, may as well. They're telling you like how much ho how to ge gauge how much money you're gonna be able to take out on a mortgage Yeah. But with this one, think it's an endowment or something, I don't kn I don't know what that means but you've got to be able to give five to ten percent as a deposit. Yeah. It's a lot of money. Oh eh. So you've gotta find like something like four thousand quid. I know. Ooh there's been a crash. Ooh dear. Where? Here. Oh yes. Everyone's so busy looking at it they're not even bothering to try and get on the roundabout. And that's how crashes occur. What time did you get home then? Erm about quarter past two? Ooh. And was it cold when you got in? Ah my little love!you do? But I went straight out again. Went to the pub. Ah!rang, you should have said you couldn't pick me up cos you'd been to the pub. Why? Well I just meant you haven't had enough to drink apart from shandy. Oh I just had two shandies. Oh it was only Rich. Oh. drink It doesn't matter. It makes more sense me picking you up dunnit? Yeah cos it means I can cook your tea for you doesn't it? Yeah. Yeah. Come on, I usually help! I thought you were cooking a meal tomorrow? Well I am but I haven't got anything in have I? Yeah. Well I'm not bothered about a meal anyway babe. Well we still can but we don't have to have like a big posh meal do we? I might cook one on my day off. Yeah. get anything this week. I've got to go into work tomorrow by the way. Alright? What time? In the morning some time. Early morning, mid morning? Well the earlier I go in the quicker I'm home. True. It's up to me. I've gotta get this Something to do with the Express? No I've gotta get this Daily Mail done that I did today. Ah. Besides I've gotta see what happens on a Sunday morning anyway cos I often miss out on a Sunday morning. I often miss out on a Sunday morning. We often miss out on a Sunday morning. Come on, when you met me you knew damn well what I did. Yes I know, I know I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know. This prat, silly cow has to sneak up her, it's one lane love. One lane and that means one lane one lane and so that means I've gotta squeeze you out. Do you want us to try Lindsey's now? Yeah I might as well. Er Saturday Well it's up to you. It's either that or we have tea like straight away, go in and just put tea on straight away What and then go up later? Yeah, yeah we can go up as soon as we've finished tea. Oh no let's go up now. I hate it when we sit around and sit around. I never sit around, I'm always the first person I said What? nothing, nothing. You've just got your argumentative head on, you just couldn't take one s you know, it was a simple thing to say but no you couldn't take it. What the fucking hell are you doing? Fucking hell love, you know, I could have parked a bus in there sideways. it's a he actually see. It's a he actually yeah. He, he, he, he! Shut up. He! Shut your gob. Shut your neck! say. Trouble is I know what, you were probably gonna start an argument so don't bother. Eh? You were probably gonna start an argument with whatever you were gonna say I probably was actually. Yeah, probably, why's that? Mm. I don't think they'll be in, I don't think Lindsey will be in but Terry might be. Well we'll see won't we? Yeah, I fancy going out anyway, I don't fancy sitting in Terry and Lindsey's flat all night. Oh no I wasn't planning on staying at Terry and Lindsey's all night. Even if Lindsey's not going out I would rather go out. Unless you don't wanna go out? I'll do anything. What would you like to do? I'm not bothered. What would your preference be? I'm nay bothered. Are you nay bothered ? We could always go to the pictures and then go back to ours or something? Mm see what everyone else is doing. They might have made arrangements for Gill's birthday. Tt oh that's true. Shall we go and see? she didn't know about a party. No but bearing in mind she's talking of going out, saying that they're gonna go out Monday night for it aren't we? Eh? Ooh. What you oohing at? Ooh no Well she might she might. Why what do you wanna go to the pictures to see? I'm not bothered, I don't even know what's on, that was just a suggestion. It's either that or, unless you wanna go to the Cocks? Mm. Oh you don't like it do you? Mm Well what I don't mind if there's a few of you. well what else is there to do? Might not be in. But s somebody is. sit at home and drink right. Er what we usually do. Shut up! Watch where you're walking. I'm watching, I'm watching. I'm watching, I'm tiptoeing. been doing today? I was working this morning. Were you? What's that on your neck? It's a little microphone Terry. Is it, yeah. What you been doing ? What's wrong Terry? Terry don't worry. They don't use it for anything. You can talk. You'll be famous Terry. Been working today Terry Have you been filling that book in as you've been erm Mm? Did you wear it when you went to see that couple? No. I could do but it's er I didn't want to I'm choosing when I wear it and when I don't. pub this afternoon with Rich. Yeah? Yeah . I was working Well so was I but we finished about two. Went down the Cocks. Just took life easy with Cadbury's Caramel. What you do last night? Nothing. keep staying in. Did you go out? No cos Craig and Jane came round. Did they? What you doing tonight? No idea. No idea that much. The layers on the side of his head backwards . Because you know what he's like when he gets talking, he talks so much he just cuts all your hair off Ye yeah it's all cut on the sides and cos, cos they're all taught to finger dry and what have you, he does all this and what have you. So Hello! Craig couldn't get over last night how much looked like . And I I think all cats look alike. Hey hey hey! Hey! Alright. Where's the cat book gone? Well there, well there is such thing as tidying up. You fucking Either that or you stood on it. come and sit here Tobe. sit here. Come here my little one. Have you seen Jerry very much Terry? Yeah I do It is rather good for that. You realize when we get married Sue Lindsey'll get us a cat for our wedding present. You're a miserable sod aren't you? You'll never let me have a pet will you? I will! pet you can have a goldfish. Urgh! I want a dog. Spaniel. I love them Terry Either that or a labrador. Yeah did you read that? Mm. A labrador And it's the same with short haired ones as well. What l spaniels or lab or dogs in general. I don't like Long haired spaniels. I'd quite like a labrador actually. They're lovely but have got horrible faces. They're lovely when they Either a spaniel or quite a big dog. You what Terry? long walks. I know but I like dogs Terry. I like them a lot. Eh? I'll give it to you. It'd be knackered by the time it gets down to the Cocks Terry, from here. It'll say fucking hell with Terry again he walks too fast. Hello. Hello cat. Oh they're cute aren't they? Mm. Look at that, he's like Bagpuss. Let's have a look Lin. You what Terry? It's not from Scarborough is it? Er I'm going to Scarborough in a couple of weeks Gavin,Alright? Have you been? I have actually. And what did you think? I don't know, I was only about eight. All I can remember is having a pickled onion and my sister stabbed it with a fork and the middle shot across the room. It's the funniest thing I can remember about Scarborough . highlight of his holiday. No I can remember we were in a on the cliffs as well. Oh look a short haired. Aren't those beautiful? Blue Burmese. Gorgeous aren't they? And that's nice int it? Sue i int that a beautiful? I wonder how they make that dog walk on the ceiling. They must, they must start the advert from the end. They do. And, and just work it backwards. They do everything backwards. backwards don't they? Yeah. But I wanna know how they get the dog to walk on the ceiling. Special dog. It's really good innit? Do you think it's really a special dog Terry? Uncle Terry is there really a special dog that walks on the ceiling? Uncle Terry telling me that th there's a dog that walks on the ceiling. Well he's a liar. Look at that. Would you like one of them Gavin?short haired? No I don't like cats like that. Don't you? Oh no is it, like, has it got like, is it like velvet? Yeah. Is it one of those, yeah I like them. I, I don't like the ones that have got you know like almost no hair. If that's one of the ones I think it is where it's like, feels like velvet, but there's some that Oh my God have al almost got no hair like the one that lives in our hou our old house. I like, I like tabbies. I like tabbies. What was that one called that used to live in our where the flat was babe?was that? British spotted I don't like those I just like big ginger and white ones like my cat. That must be what Jemima is, a British bi-coloured short hair, mustn't she? Otherwise known as a mongrel. horrible! Yeah it's awful. That looks like it's stuffed doesn't it? Oh look at that one! Th that looks like a doesn't it? Mm. pussy cat , wire hair Those are,th those That's a bit like that thingy but it was bald and it'd got a bad, ever such a bad That is lovely that is. Isn't that lovely? You'd like one of them wouldn't you? Little white Oh it's too thin, it's got a pointed face. Oh! I think They're lovely aren't they? I would like a purple cat. Yeah, be ace wouldn't it? Oh and they've got three old grannies. I hate it when they have three old grannies on. Look at them! The viewing figure must go down by a half now. Yeah I reckon. Seriously they must. Is this the start of a new series then? Yeah it's vile int it? Is that it? I'm not sure. Tell you the viewing figures will go down by half as soon as you see there's three old dears it'll be like oh see what, see what else is on love! Look at that one Gavin. Oh it looks like a bat! That's like the one we saw on the telly a bat. Yeah. Strewth. Where'd you get the book from Lin? One of, one of the Ah! Look at that one, look at that! That's cute. I bet you didn't go to Safeways to get one of those dips did you? No. No you didn't. Nor did you ask. I said yesterday! Oh you did actually, yeah. I did actually Oh I'm sorry. Bloody hell she looks a bit well doesn't she? Mm! How old is she? Eighty four. Eighty four. Bloody hell she's well for eighty four isn't she? Yeah she is. bingo. She's off her head she is. She's on Valium. What you doing tonight anyway,? I'm supposed to be meeting Gill at I'm not bothered babe. Do whatever you wanna do. Go out, can't be bothered to stay in. been out, I haven't been out since New Year's Eve. Well that's not my fault I don't keep you chained to the bed. saying. Only when you wanna be. drink the other night. When, when you'd gone Lindsey said well why didn't you take me. Well wh to me. Yeah that's what you said. What when we, when we walked out at twenty past eleven? His name's Sting Do you want a hand babe? I might do. Why not? Well, you could do the washing up if you want. Okay. It's hot! They might be coming back round. In hand . Yes please. In hand! In hand! It's not. It's not at hand. I'm starving! Are you? Yes, well I'm hungry. Good job I did rice. Oh good! Oh! Oh there was a call for her. Oh yeah. I tidied up. I know you did. I did. I know you did! I tidied the lounge as well. Did you? Yeah. Oh, I'll come and inspect it. That's what thought isn't it? Eh? Eh? You was meant to, to tidy the lounge. Have you done your Yeah. job I wanted? Yeah, I tidied the table. Ah ah ah! My little love! Ah! It was all cold when you came home today! Ah!. It was. Never mind. I'm fine. I'll live tomorrow. And I don't what you're doing with that bloody there! I mean what's that supposed to be there for? I'll put it back in my car. Oh I got erm the T V things for those, can you get some? And I oh, I'll pick this up it was quicker. What was it? T V Quick? Something like that. I dunno. Mm. Dear. This is probably better though, because that tells you shows you what's on Anglia television and, that one's got Central. Oh, What's On T V? Tells you what's on Anglia but not Central? Well it does tell you for Central but it, up there. It'll give you a film, that's Anglia, but not Central. Oh it's a Central only as well. What? Anglia we do , I mean what do we want Northern Anglian region for? Every pa , everything says that. Does it? Oh! T V Times and the Sun says that. Oh! Central only. That's a good film! It's a bit weird though. Racquel Welch is on next Friday. I know. That's good though. Yeah I know. You seen it? Yeah. That, same's on tomorrow as well. Ironweed. I think that's, a bit good tonight. Oh you mean, Jagged Edge? Jagged Edge is it? One or the other. Jagged Edge with th , Glenn Close? Yeah. Yeah. Is that the one you like? Ah? What do you mean, is that the one I like? That film. Cos it sounds as if it's really good! Like th , that one. Ironweed tomorrow. I can't watch that. Jack Nicholson copes well with the challenge of playing down a down and out with a drink problem as well as a guilt complex . Say that again. Jack Nicholson playing a down and out? Yeah. His trouble surviving the tough streets of depression era America. His wife walks out on him. Meryl Streep as scru scruffy as the ex-singer becomes his friend . And Tom Waites is another one of his down and out alley pals. Sounds good don't it? Eh? It sounds really brilliant! Oh! Be quiet! And I've lost that as well. Marathon Man's on tonight as well. Sorry? Marathon Man's on tonight. Oh! I've not heard of that. Eh? Not heard of that. Your joking! I haven't he , I've not you we heard of it! Don't be silly! I haven't! What is it? Dustin Hoffman. Marathon Man. Well I know, but I've not seen it. The one where he gets tortured? I've not seen it. Bazaar! Have you seen Imitation of Life? Yeah. What is it about then? Well there's not a lot of point telling you la , if you've seen it is there? Cos you've not seen it! You're the only person in the country who hasn't seen Marathon Man! Oh da ,me me me me , I bet I'm not! You are! I'm not! There was a survey once and it said everybody in the country has seen Marathon Man! And Give up you! except one person in Land who we're yet to find! I'm gonna ring them up and say that I've found her! Er, can I collect my Willy Wonka gold ticket now! There's a golden day.. You glad that I cleaned up? Yes, I'm very glad! Because if I'd have come home and it'd been a mess I would have had a face the longest of all! I'd forgotten all about it actually Gav. Had you? I even soaked the Christmas cake plate! Aha! Have you got to peel some of the stuff off? Or is it all broken up? It's, no it had broken off a little bit, yeah. Had it? Yeah. Oh ah ! That sink must have got a leak in. I think we must have bunged it up with some gunge! Cos it's stopped leaking. Cos I haven't a emptied it for ages. Do you realise that the people on this table gonna realise oh just clean it out. Maybe that's why they're doing it. One that the This survey says men does the cooking. Yeah, that th they've dra drawn a conclusion that men actually do cook a lot. Babe! You know damn well that you prefer cooking than I do! Don't you? It's not so much that, it's that I prefer my cooking to your cooking. Well there you go! That's the answer to why you cook more than I do. And I'll remember that next time you tell me to cook! And when I don't want to, I'll just turn round and say No! And I like I like to cook. Would you really say that about Yes! cooking? Ah! Not really. You've not cooked Yes, but when you do it's very nice. In fact, I might just have to do a bit before I , I might just buy a couple. Never been to me . Ah! If we go for a curry later I'll be fat as fuck! We might not. I know, but if we do we'll be fat as fuck won't we? We don't have to go. Yeah, but it'll be nice to though if everyone's going. Eh? Aha. And you like your curries don't you? You blink a lot when I go like that. I know I do! Give up! It's quite funny actually. Stop it then! Calm down! Cos you're gonna get a smack in a minute ! People listen to this tape. Well! They'll think bloody hell she's an ar argumentative bitch! How the fuck does he live with her! Tt! Why do you live with me? Eh? Why do you I sometimes wonder that myself! Especially Ah! after listening to these tapes back. Ah! Really! You'll have to let me listen to them. I listened to one in car and yo , your like that again, you snapped! It's when I said, oh I wish occasionally we, you know, cook straight away instead sitting around. I don't sit around! I'm always first in the kitchen! Well I am! Yes, but look at you! It's the way you speak to people. Erm You speak to me like the stepbrother speaks to all the family. As though you just shit on his head and rubbed it in with your foot or something, you know! Very good Gavin! It's how Jane speaks to everybody. Yeah, it is. Your Jane reminds me of Jay. She turns round and you say something in then goes you know with absolutely no whatsoever and she turns round and goes like that like Jay does. I know she does! She's a right bloody Yeah! sod! And where's she got it from? Eh, I'm going in the other room. Right. Well can we do anything. No. Well I've just gotta wash my hair. Gotta wash my hair. Okay. Hello love. Hello love. Sunshine on a rainy day Mm. Where's my keys? Right. You alright then babe? Yep! I'm ready. You got anything funny for your ? Mm. No. Have you Joe's pre , Joe's money for the presents? No cos I don't know. You what? No, because he's getting a . And Joe's mum give me mostly pound coins and get it changed for a ten pound note. I said, what's that? Your off your head you are! And then I got all the she'd mis-changed me so I had to go back and get it. I was doing it for the drive anyway. We're gonna be broke tomorrow! How much you got? I've got a fiver. We shall probably spend that tonight ! I'll spend the rest of that! Eh? I'm not gonna say that. I know. It's true. Mm. Not a lot to live on then? Not a lot. Have to go shopping soon. You alright then? Yeah. In the next few days. Oh I know. Well that's three weeks to live on. Oh I'm all bunged up this morning. . Hello mate. Alright? Ju there's no interest! Yeah. Oh I phoned the er the Sun, Today, Telegraph the Standards and there wasn't any interest. They all wanted to forget Crufts they said. So that was nice, you know. What else can I do? If they don't want it they don't want it do they? You going up? Yeah. I suppose you got your car edition this morning did you? Did you get edition this morning. No. Oh! Did you not? Oh that's alright. Oh well it's yeah. Well it's always gonna be your best move weren't it, I mean, you know. He said he's sending someone up there, when they're gonna provide a series, it's gonna be too late to make anyway. Oh well! No, there's no, no interest at all. I think, probably if it had been a cuter dog the but it's a vile dog to photograph! Well it is innit? You know, it doesn't exactly look cute! Looks as if it needs a good smack! No. Yeah, mate, I've just got in myself change stations but er Richard's just talking about some kid who died from meningitis but it doesn't mean a lot these days does it? Not unless they died under strange circumstances or hospital or something. Oh yes, well I'll remind him in a minute. Is he? Alright mate. I'll catch you later. Bye-bye! Pete's reminded you that Martin's away. T S B have gone into the work Gav. Oh! Have they? Well they say it's to do with the annual . Oh! Oh! But, but best not go bust! Oh! God! There were three hundred and twelve million in profit last year! Oh. Yeah I know! That would be a bit sick wouldn't it ? And a bit. Oh eh! I could do with a lie in! I got back from Colchester the day we were so she said , looked at it, is a ten pounds or a hundred pounds. He said, oh! Is it just ten pounds she's won? He goes no, it's a hundred one. Said well I've only got ten pound here. He says well erm . He said oh yeah, must be . How can you get that lot for ten pound? He says . It's not much for a hundred quid is it? It's not is it? There again, I suppose it's the esteem of winning it, you know. Or trying. Amazing! I'd be made up with you would you? One of, one of, one of the women had got this final six did she win? Did she win? She's crying out her eyes out with joy!they're just weird people I found. Oh dog owners? Ah yeah! Bunch of old weirdos on it! They're like fanatical about them though. I know, yeah. People with dogs. Unreasonable. And fucking, these animals are they're stinking Ooh are. smelling shitty animals! Shitty stinking, where did you go ? When I went in before they really like er Aargh! Disgusting and they're No they're not, they're . Did you go to the Crufts press office? Yeah. God! That big woman there,! Cos erm Which one? The blonde one? Yeah! Oh rather nice! Ooh! I just Swedish I reckon she er, Swedish or Dutch. She, she wasn't English you can tell the way she talks. Ah? . Is the giant on his way in? I'm starving! I might have my bag of crisps now. I'm starving! Hello darling. Did you Dessy yesterday? Did you do Dessy yesterday. Yeah? That's yours in this morning is it? This is yours in this morning? The Star. Picture of Dessy almost ki , like kissing another horse. Yeah. And then erm Cathy taking Dessy for and and her looking up at the Dessy's head. Oh! Yeah. Yeah. No. You didn't do one from Tamworth yesterday did you? It's erm feud over the house that Jack built. Yeah, I know. But we were gonna do it erm, cos we got it on the Tamworth Heralds. I don't know, it's li , page three from Daily Star. No. I don't know. Presuming so. I would have thought they'd offered . Oh that's true! That's true. Yeah. Yeah. No, it's Claire's lead. Massive picture with him outside his house. Yeah! Erm ba la la , that's a point, I don't know. I'll tell you now. No, it's a different picture. Although it might be useful cos they might have given I suppose mightn't they? Mm? Mm. I don't know. I've not looked this morning's papers. Oh well better go! Alright mate! Catch you later! Don't panic! Cor! Did you do it? Oh, probably news team. Cos it's in the post as well innit? Yeah. And he's got exactly the same clothes on in both pictures. Probably only ones he's got! Why can't somebody give it to the Star then? Why didn't you get an order on it. Because, 's off ain't he? I spoke to him yesterday. Give me an order. A court case. Has he made anything else? Making a car. Mm? Making a car. Yep! He's in. Are they brilliant or are they brilliant! And that penalty shooting was the most disgraceful thing Ah! Thanks! I've ever seen in my life! What a laugh though! But it did it give you a laugh though? I laughed my head off! He should o he should a , he should have been sent off. After the replay when the referee sees the replay he should be fined for that! That is I mean, he he he took two steps dug his foot in ground and give him one of them! Fuck! I couldn't believe it! Guess what? sends off. about the whole game kicking people,at the neck! That ki , that kid should be fined though for that! That er, because that is plain cheating! Why isn't Gary Speed English that's what I wanna know? Get in England side easily! Good player ain't he? Easily get in England side. What with that Pearce doing yesterday? Oh, he's a nightmare weren't it! hold Chapman . Play, Chapman's good! Mind you, he shits himself doesn't he, cos Johnny Giles was it's controversial cos they wouldn't let him speak at the end of the game. No, I know ! for him about the second half saying, you know that he wouldn't have said this, wouldn't have said that. What's this crap with, and I've missed it . You know, when you said he hated Leeds, and everyone hates Leeds and is disgusted they're near the top! Ha! That's why they're . You know what the Villa fans said to Terry Adams on Sa Saturday? What a waste of carrots! Right, have you have you been scared at all today? No. No? So what's on, anything? Is there any Did you get through that pass. ? Nothing in the post today about . What? Yeah, where did you get your pass off you last night? No. Last night? What at? Crufts? Oh no. How did you get in Crufts Rich? Oh hang on. All had a badge. I know. He hasn't got a very good command You what mate? of English has he? Daily Mail. Yeah. Yeah. from what we know. On the anonymous letter er right at the bottom you have a comment from Jason her using this language Can you imagine it? How did, how did invent using the language It should because that was what was written and I wanted to show people what er she didn't give me, the, the letter went to the kids. So it wasn't the kids to read? Yeah well d to read? read it. She went round the class and read it out. Then they got some bloody er parent who said my Johnny's never heard of that word before Hmm. How old are the kids? Eleven to eighteen. Eleven to eighteen? Bit old aren't they? Yeah. Everyone knows what that word means don't they, at eleven? Bloody hell. Steve doesn't. What word's that then? tel; Yeah but I didn't really understand it. find out what programme was on at half past seven, half past six. Audrey isn't it? What for? I shouldn't go through her. Well I mean try con convincing press office. Who's Education Chair? Byron. Byron. Have we got one of those council handbook ? We've got a Where is it? Have you got that council handbook Sue? Well there's one there. But that's not Yeah. Yeah hello mate yeah yeah I don't know I've not received it yet no so I'm just waiting for er someone to bomb into my office yeah do you want it, what, what, do you want it colour mate or black and white? Black and white. Alright I'll give you a shout as soon as. Cheers Steve, bye bye mate . Come on baby! I don't know what to do about this one, Chris says oh go down at dinnertime, try and a picture at dinnertime. I'll say I'll say if he gets a good show we'll see you right. I think we have on occasion, like, remember th er no were you aware on the girl who had the erm metal arm? Metal hands? Like she had her rebuilt An exclusive for the Mail on Sunday. Was she okay? Oh God it was so complicated. Was it? Mm. What's this? Derek 's . Oh right. Is this Well I mean so he'll probably get time to do it anyway Hi there, can I speak to your headmaster please, or headmistress. M I'm from press agency in Birmingham. Yeah. Certainly . Er do you remember Where do we get that from motorway ? Oh we don't know cos he never turned up. There's a warrant out for his arrest. We'll have to keep checks on it really. Don't know what it means . Well we got three or four orders on it though. Good morning, is the there? Hallo , sorry to bother you, Gavin from press agency in Birmingham. I'm phoning about little Emma erm I don't know if you've seen the Evening Mail today erm there's a picture of Emma and her er young sister er Marianne, I presume it was taken at the school. Erm what it is we're a press agency working for the national papers and about eighteen months ago we did Em Emma's story for the Sunday People erm and now I've just seen the Evening Mail today erm and I've got, you know the how she's grown nine inches in the past eighteen months, er and just thought the story might er might take another outing and I just wondered if it was possible f for you to help us contact her er her mother at all? If you could that'd be great. Erm as I say it's Gavin erm and my number's That's lovely, thanks for your help. Bye bye . Well the headmaster of this school where the kid goes to is gonna see her mum this morning so can give her the message. Is that okay then Gav? The headmaster's Okay then. Hello . Who's calling? Sorry? Hold on a second. They're actually on the phone at the moment, can I take a message? Oh yeah the off-licence, yeah. Have you got in touch with Mr er? Mr Yeah I think we're actually just trying to find out which, which er It's engaged. which one it was. Oh he's engaged is he? Okay then, cheers, bye . He's off the phone now Gav. Old Wine Shop, hold on a second Steve's actually free, let me er, let me put you across to him, hold on . Can you take Staffs Police press office? Who? Staffs Police press office. Okay yeah. You've got the name of the shop have you now? The Old Wine Shop? Yeah. Take him anyway. erm headmistress cru crusaded against er I thought again? foul language in the school playground er sent a letter out with the word fucking It's the Old Wine Shop. Yeah. Erm I think so, it might be a general store as well. Okay and it's in Amington A M I N G T O N We just believe one parent said what a disgraceful example la di da di da. Oh right. That's the, that's the crux of the story, she's she's campaigning against bad language and she sent, has given a letter to all the in the school with fuck you in it. Might be a general store or a newsagents or grocers. Oh might be a deli. It's the Old Wine Shop it's called. Well, okay then. No? Cheers, bye . Alright then, not to worry, thanks, bye . Have you phoned up for the number? Only th only Talking Pages, they couldn't find it. Try Directories. Talking Pages see aren't designed to look under names they find things that you're not sure of the names and things. What, do, do they charge the same rates or hallo, could you give me the, the number for the Old Wine Shop erm Sorry? Did you get it? It's not listed. Police have got the address wrong. Must have the address wrong. I I'll try again j cos sometimes you get a different one and So what did you say to her ? try and track it down I will do. It's the Old Wine Shop it's Amington A M I N G T O N Oh it could be. No? Tt. That's strange. Alright then thanks, bye . No. I bet it's called something and the Old Wine, and Old Wine Shop, it'll be like a something Mahatma Gandhi's Oh you know it's not, it's not that mega . What's happening They've come back, so that's what I wanted. Now he's gone Well where is he? What? Where is he? Well he's gone he said oh that's what you want, okay I'll get back to you in a bit. He's gonna get back to you With a direct contact for this bloke. Anyone ever police press office to the police press office we've been told to refrain. We got a telling off. I never do unless you tell me to. We got a telling off for it though. No I know. Ray phoned up and said erm I had a chat with Good morning, Yeah. a what? Oh yeah? feminist, anti-racist, from Newport in Gwent erm No it was a picture, the girl we used, we was actually our own mobile phone erm tt It's terrible. And it's not like that at all. the girl we used was, is from a food, a dog food company which slips my mind No we actually just gone in and picked it out She was, she was actually erm a promo girl for the er for the dog food company who, who, who's mobile the picture. Yeah. Yeah. No problem, cheers, bye bye . Yeah. Erm a little bit straighter. Yeah. Okay. More fac more factual than er er as she gazes at her, you know, her two kiddies playing Oh that's what I said, I said it is but if you can get him to say you know, Sting's deserted me you know he, he lets me live on a, you know, my twenty three quid a week pension. Well it's like Richard said I think The Mercury probably tried that and then gone with this naff tale about the house. It's like he said, he said it's a quote from, said I'm going down to stay with him next month. But you say they make all the time, if you could get him to say it He, he, he had something to, to Does anybody want a cup of tea? Love one please Nick. That'd be very nice. Eh? What? Er I think they've gone up to Sting's parents, er father- in-law to try and get him to say it. Because th because he hasn't Because they got it? Yeah. Mm. Yeah. at all, basically I think you're probably right,right, he, he he is, he's gonna slag him off. Where's he live? Er It's worth a try. He's not on the phone. Er you ca you couldn't do it on the phone anyway It's a case of out and er sitting with, having a coffee with the old guy. Innit? You know if you can get him to say, you know tell him to forget the rai the rainforest for a, you know, for a while and think about his own family. We're going out on a early February to do whatsername Rodney from Only Fools and Horses. from Wolverhampton. Get a chat with him, you never know what comes out of them do you? Like Richard said if we get him to say that he'd like to do Shakespeare, he's sick of plon plonker good story. He's in a play in . It's a good story to get him to do Shakespeare cos we could write it in, you know, Shakespeare in Rodney plonker language , you know. Er Rodney you and and Rodney plonker. Well anything, you never know you know, get him to say he's jealous of er David Jason's success or you know. Yeah. That's the thing, the sort of thing you should keep an eye open, an eye open for. Which is what I meant to erm tt get on to Chris from the press office B B C Well I'll give him a bell and just organize it for one day. , good morning. Who's calling? Hold on Sergeant Who? Sergeant You what mate? You what? No it doesn't, that's the idea. It's all going to it er, they're putting it into a ma massive voice bank. Just knock on your door ask you if you'll do it for them. And give you twenty tapes, the Sony Walkman and you've gotta tape everything conversations for them. Eh? No cos when they get it back they don't know who it is do they? Is it just called Pebble Mill that programme at one o'clock? On programme at one. B B C Pebble Mill. Pebble Mill Pebble Mill it used, used, it's changed so often. called Pebble Mill. I don't agree with that. I don't agree with that, I think they should change it. Yeah. Have a word. I'm organi I'm organizing a dinner date for you you know. Oh yeah? With Chris the Pebble Mill press officer. Oh yeah? Okay? Chris please. yeah. Gavin , the at . Chris it's Gavin at . You not so bad mate, you? Goody. Do you of the erm Pebble Mill press office or is that somebody entirely different? As far as actually Pebble Mill the programme. Oh yeah. Right cos what it is erm we'd like if, if possible to get like a daily list of who's due to appear on Pebble Mill where pop stars and T V stars are worth a damn sight more in newspapers than ne hard news these days it er shouldn't be a bad idea for us to try and get a, get in on who's, you know, who's coming in to appear. Oh I mean th that's fine, I mean you know I was you know erm daily, just so we know when somebody does appear, if they're, you know, if we, you know, wanted a chat with them or, you know, to see what they're up to these days that yeah but I w er yeah yeah. I mean obviously it's good for you as well cos you know er you know w , you know we'll obviously put are appearing on Pebble Mill blah di blah di blah, er I was wondering if it was possib oh yeah that's okay mate. Yeah. Yeah Yeah. it's and that's telephone and fax Yeah I mean that'll be great, yes. Yeah. Yeah it doesn't work that way does it ? Alright yeah not so bad mate, we'll have to erm take you out for a, for dinner one day soon and er give you a chat what, you know, what we look for and er to scratch m my back and I'll scratch yours. Alright mate well I'll give you a shout. Thanks. Cheers Chris. Bye mate . Er you can give him a shout at some point Steve and er arrange to go for dinner with him. Oh right. Just to sort of butter him up? When it's a quiet day. Just tell him what we want him to give us, you know if he gave us the advance nod on something then we could either you know deal it exclusive or we'll put it all round, you know, whichever they prefer. Who was it they had on who a aging singer, what's his name just before Christmas in the Mail who wanted us to go and see them and Des O'Connor wasn't it? That's right yeah. He's hardly an aging singer. Things like that ? Yeah well he's hardly an aging singer is he? Well he is isn't he? Television presenter isn't he? He's a singer as well though. Yeah but it's hardly his fir it's hardly his forte, it's hardly what he er Well it might be his forte. No, hardly put it down in his C V, Des O'Connor singer Did they ever make that? Yeah, the actual story , we didn't get er anything extra for it. Okay then I'll put you across . What you on Gav,? Who is it? Saturday. T one, two, three, four, fourteen That Money Mail job Daily Mail. What did you have to do? Did you make it? Eh? Has it made it? Well it's not for today. You what Saranne? The one you set up. Oh that one. Hello! Oh yeah. I've done so many of well if th if the, just a little announcement, if the milkman comes in to claim his money He owes us some money for the, for the, the milk that was off. He owes us some money but yeah rotten milk, he sold us a couple of pints of rotten mi the only trouble is Joan have fucking thrown it out. Well we don't, we just don't pay for it So normally take your word. Yeah. Because I'd k I'd kept it like as evidence don't worry about it he, he won't want evidence, just tell him. That's your story anyway Nick, the er white deposit at the bottom of the Have you sent that teacher's story out have you? You mean, are you implying that I'm wank The swearing teacher? Was it any good? Won't you need a picture of her? Was there a picture of her? I didn't know it was gonna go out yet. You just lifted the parents' quotes Rich? You spoken to her?at the school. .Yeah hold on a second Have you been? I got slightly lost. Well I went dow back down the Road cos there was a traffic jam and er I sort of went down oh sorry mate went down a road like which I thought was a good short cut, and they've got a lot of these roads and they've put like pavements across the end of them with bollards, and I went back and then there was a traffic jam and I got stuck because they were unloading a lorry so I've been er basically pissed about. Yeah she a bit now ain't she? I don't think she has. She has as far as pictures are concerned Rich . She looks like er Have you got a number for her? Yeah. Different one? Yeah. She's written it on the top of the letter. Looks like a bloke unfortunately. Prime minister of Zaire in her spare time. Well she looks like she's ve very, very er average looking. Well I know what that is. Did you ever draw a No I He said you were gonna draw them for him. had time. No well I wasn't accusing you Steve. I'm not a typesetter. Simmer down Steve. If you give me the details of the sports orders Adrian I'll You I'll draw it. Okay. Er Oh it's alright for some innit? Yeah we that one then, forget it. I don't think it does matter in this case. Didn't matter She doesn't sound black at all. She doesn't does she? I, I was expecting some forty year old white, well dressed, you know Conservative that doesn't matter at all to the story mention it really. You know they, they give me the military police at the school I tell you, who are you, well I'm Nick , are you sure, yeah right but it's like fucking hell, you know, like a seriously foul-mouthed black woman, he thought bloody hell. oh no way. So I'll have to think what I'm gonna do about that. Pitch it I suppose. She's got this you know, all it is, it's a bit shocking but it's , shocking and you think well it's a good idea. Mm down in the letter isn't it? It doesn't matter where it is in the letter. She is a headmistress isn't she Rich? Yeah. Is it miss or ms? Ms. How do you put that in writing? M S . She's a miss really but she just she said to me she was miss, but she might have said ms, you know? Well mister you can't tell whether you're married or not so the feminist version is ms. Can I put fuck you on a caption do you think ? I suppose I'd best ring Scottie and see if he wants me to process something about a picture then? I know but, cos, you know what he'll s You what mate? I know, that's what I mean, Hiya! Hello. Don't forget to post your little letter today will you? Definitely not. Should we, because we're for us today? Yeah. That's right. Oh when we go out, go out across now. Well, I'll go Cos you'll get the first post then. Or almost. Yeah. Cos you'll guarantee it more fo to get there tomorrow. Mm. Mm. Hiya! Hiya! Babe! Mm. You know you got, about his butter? Yeah. You know about that little after taste it gives you, that really saltiness gives you like a It's just a yucky taste to it. I dunno if it's because it's melted a bit but when I tried it before Well I , I thought it was the peanut butter you see, and then I just thought what you said last night. Because I spread it on really, really thin today. It's right pickleey. What day is it? Thursday? Mhm. Addicted to love . I had an awful dream today, I dreamt my nan, and I woke up and I'm crying. Dreamt your nan what? I dreamt about my nan and I woke up and I was crying. Ah! Come here. And then I dreamt something weird about riding and then people, something stupid like that. I had a very strange dream! Must have been something we'd eaten. Must be out of the stir-fry, that broccoli. I had a very weird dream! I ha have you got to, going to brush my teeth. You what babe? You what babe? Don't start again now then. Otherwise you'll, I'm gonna take you over my knee and smack you! Eh? Will you? Oh dear! Yes. Alright. My cake feels a bit hard. Oh a new one! Right? Yep. Pick the post up? Yep. Where is it? What? Where is it? Well go and get it. Up here? Okay. Ooh! Ooh! Ooh! Do you wanna post it later? Hello. Hello! What's wrong? I've got a pain in my, well not a pain, it's just an ache. For just a minute I got gone deaf. All this pain inside. Well let it worry about it babe, I have, get them quite often. But you're not a woman. Men don't get there. They have heart attacks though. I'll give you one! What? I could give you one. You what? Said, I could give you one. I don't mean a heart attack. Gonna say ! See the football last night? No. Leeds have got a be the unluckiest team! Have they? That was a penalty that was when Chapman . Well actually, Barnes didn't. I don't know, I I think he went and talked to Stuart er intimidate him I think it's sa Yeah, well it's that's a penalty ain't it Gav? I don't know if it is mate cos I, I do it all the time cos yo ya , a lot of it is jumping to intimidate. That's what Graham Sharp does, he jumps Knock out of goal. The thing was Chapman was in front of him weren't he? I, I wouldn't honestly say that it, he did it deliberately to be honest. I think it'd be very harsh to give a penalty. I don't know. You see that film last night? What? Does it say in the paper what's wrong with him this morning. Broke his arm or his wrist. You saw him, as he went down, if you looked at it his wrist He just went, like that. Yeah. No, I didn't see that film last night. The one about the musician killed, committed suicide? It was totally shit! Was it, yeah? Oh,I'm glad I didn't watch it then . Can you imagine the worst American teen corn movie that you've ever seen! This was. Was it? Yeah. Anybody see Central last night? Er did I see it or not? No I didn't see it last night. Polished off three bottles of champagne last night! Did you? Jo Jo Joan had sixteen bottles of it! Who? Wi , Joan wanted to take it into the party the other night they wouldn't let her. So she gave them to, loads to Joe, she got loads of . Joan had one and me and Mark had two which . Still got that teacher accused of er insulting the kids at schools. What you looking at? Dunno. Just sign that for me? Well you sign that. Well don't bother. Don't bother? Why don't you wait till Colin's used more. Oh for fuck sake! Already done that. We've had it for years! Do we know that? Because she sa , this woman said they've had it for at least two years! Did she? Yeah? Yesterday , yeah. But I can ring her up again and check. Just hold that! See what you've done Well I thought I'd do something with it Yeah. but it's just gone out my head completely. Yeah. See what you've done though, but erm I mean I'd hate you just to Okay. do it all and ge , and then be told by Roger, no I don't want it like thi I think he's like flogging a dead horse here I really do ! The lying bastards! Need a good scientist who say that last July went and discovered a planet larger than the earth in another solar system and now said, oh it was all a mistake! We made a numerological error. Like yeah! Sure you did! It's like yo you're you're not really trying to cover it up now! Dream on! They must find so much fucking stuff that they can't tell us! If I, if I could be a fly on a wall anywhere, it would be in governmental offices around the world. Especially the States. Secrets. Oh, especially the States, yeah! But, and England because it's Yeah. system. See Germany have their little er fingers in the pie haven't they now? You what? Yugoslavia? Oh! Croatia. It's German republic. Is it? Basically, yeah. Under the Republic of Croatia or something like that. Which means in any war if they can ba , if there's a war again in the Yugoslav states, er Germany are involved. Bit naughty! We haven't got this country yet. six six seven five hundred and one. Here the Germans go again! Got a rather thick head this morning. Yes. Richard from . Betty Boop made it to the What? the regional story. What did it make? Erm, the Star. Have a read. Eight cars. Eight cars? It ain't gonna tell us they're only gonna sa , someone gonna lose this because a bloke got sacked from his job for having a Betty Boop tattoo. That's big! You're no average sort of That's like the there right. dots on erm Er, well I, I did send it out again on Monday. This guy got on Tuesday. Did we? Well for that nymph story. Oh yeah. Tuesday or Wednesday, what is it? No Tuesday. Which was out again yesterday with the John story. Which one? The one about hi , that bloke what was li living with her. Urgh! People turn out on Sunday small. Send, the original one out as well. Combine the two and send them out. Ni , dream machines. We're not sure yet. Last night the first C D we played Crime of the Century by Supertramp. Yeah. We were in the kitchen having tea. It was going on through this song it's ni, bur bur bur bur bur scratch right across the C D. There's a scratch? Well, we jus , went to take off the C D then And a , you can't we went record in five seconds. it can't be Could your C D making a line through it. No, we think it is , we think it is the C D Yeah well You'll find it is, cos mine mine's does that We picked three other C D's afterwards and they all worked. Mine does that mate. Don't worry about it! What you'll find, if you clean your C D the actual C D's, it's the pla , the C D erm, with a soft cloth, breath on it and wipe it down you'll find it'll work. I thought it was pretty er, ironic that we were playing Crime of the Century by Supertramp and I just got this bloody hi-fi off you and the bloody tape won't work! Er, the I I C D wasn't working. I tell you what it could be is that cos you gotta know that C D's use laser to read it We thi , we , I think it's the C D because er It will be mate, cos my er C D used to do that. I've got one C D that every time I put it on it erm speeds up really, really fast and it jumps the next track and does the same then. I've got a frog in my throat. Whistle Saranne. She can't, women can't. I can't. Why can't women whistle? I don't know. I don't know. I can sometimes It's meant to be something to do with their lips. They've only got two muscles or . I can do like, a couple but I can't do Go on. a tune. Whistle us a tune. Go on try. I can't. Do I have to? They're great as well! Oi! Give us a Give us a give us a sweet you git! I haven't got any sweets to give. Don't we all Rick. Geez! Well, what does he decide? Joe he's, I can't do it now He's gonna play like that. Ah! Ah! Can't even sitting on those chairs you see and she gave a really and loud whistle! Giant! Excuse me! Read the Sport? You what mate? Er er no, don't worry. Look you I ain't passing Betty Betty Boop. I don't mean it. Is it that one? It's all three the same. This is a Betty Boop made eight cars? What? To start with. Well well It's sa , I got a story coming through! A Bloke's been sacked from a job for having a tattoo of Betty Boop. so it says. A tattoo. Oh! The cot death. No, it took she gave me the Times. But she'll make a mistake. Saranne. She gotta Well she buy later today you see. That's what I'm gonna do. No. The court case. The bloke says bring it down for today. What? It's all fo , it's in ten minutes. bloke didn't he? You don't want this? What's on top of this Yeah. Tha , it was on, last thing on the R M B at . Hey? It's on,R M B at eight. Who's singing? But this is a second rate job. You what? This is a second rate job. I haven't supported it. Neither have I. Sorry? Do you want any fifty P's? Bri , I'll probably be alright actually, see, thanks. That was it! Scene going What man or woman? Man. Probably a news team publicity stunts. It's not. Probably a news team stunts! When's that story? Somebody having a dog . Is that really enough? What are they? I fancy a little kit-kat, something like er Flake with the chocolate running through the ta , the er . Hopefully not. Better they don't sell them. I 'll see. Cases. Hello mate! Oh hello! You what? Ah now! Oh! Erm, no we don't . Yeah, we'll be able to get called on, yeah. Most of the R S P C A telling us what's going on today. And you know,th th there's anything, you know, give them a a ri ring so often . But apparently we are you know, it's so bloody hard! These people in there that go away and leave the dogs behind you know, on their holidays or you know. Don't throw any water any more! I know, yeah. It's quite it's scarey! Er well that's but, anyway anyway ta-ta then! Okay my old love! Catch you later! Bye ! You with er ? Peter said what? What was that? What's the dog cases on today? And he said, they don't make anyway do they? See, you lost two pages of news on Fergie. Story, look a splash said on page four five oh! This one from yesterday. Oh! What? The feller underneath, two pictures of her and erm some fuck you, Canadian on holiday and the chap's on holiday and he's got er erm . Gav, there's one on page five with the Pope it's worth look. So! Five nil. I could still take that already. Could you? What? Look at that. It was known about a year that they were gonna bump the prices up on karaokes except Yeah? people erm I bet they thought it was gonna be o , gonna kill it. Did it make more? Eh? Did it make more? I think so, but er, it also says erm it might not be true but there's a quote in here that says erm where is it? Can't find it. Hold on one more day . Yeah, I mean it it's a home office ruling that it's allowing local authorities to eat the fee. Coventry did it yesterday. Oldham Athletic are shit! Oh! What did they do? Lost four two? Did they, eh? I didn't watch the highlights later on, I just saw the er Leeds Man U game. Oh yeah. Eh! They've got a good player that new . Nice touch there! Yeah. A bit slow. Now Wolves are only three points behind Derby now! Aha! What do you reckon Titch? Do reckon it was a penalty when er Chapman got pulled over? I say no, I say it would have been harsh to give it. Yeah, I think it would. a definite penalty! I say, he went up just to erm frighten him and left there. but I don't reckon he erm went up to deliberately shove him out the way. Perhaps if he'd realized . Well I should think they are. It's probably really bowled one! Rich, the fact is, he should have put it in the That cross by Geates What a ned! That Williams is shite! You can always tell the shit reserve players when they come in the side! That bloody Williams bloke makes me puke! Well perhaps he's felt, oh well! I couldn't believe how many Chapman was missing though if you ask me! That is that that header in I thought you wanted the to clean, I thought ah! He was thinking of leaving ! Can you Gav ? It was a good cross though. Look out Danny! Yeah. Very good Lee Parker! I don't know why you bother doing that! I saw the film with Rachel last night. Part of it ! I hope . Eh? fine then innit? Leeds have been up three days ago. Oh yeah! You prat! I say, you are, you owe me a tenner. I know! Yeah, you owe me a tenner as well. When are you gonna pay me that? End of the season! When it's, when it's mathematically When it's . impossible! I shall have to anyway. I think it might be now actually. Right? Stop there just a minute. No, it won't be yet. Near enough for me. It's near enough for Near enough but Well it's impossible to know. I mean it's impossible in every other way but mathematically. Well you said or else they'll in the league this season. It won't be a supreme bet. Yeah. Bet on one side Lu Lu Liverpool and Man U, and every other there's two year's time ! That was, that was the . I just couldn't believe my ears when you started saying tenner, tenner will win the league! Quite good! See this erm I was a bit off my head, don't worry about it! see this book th they got the true the appalling pictures of the er er, the scene when she gets raped on telly!fucking frightening she is! Let's see that Rich. Let's have a look. Sh she'll need a hell of a lot of ! Shame about that isn't it? Yeah? What is? What, so he's told anybody then? Eh? Said it remains for me to find out. Don't start Rich! But it's really clever so I just bought one. Well it do it then then! Yeah. That's what I do, yeah. But erm . Do you know, do you know anything about ? Please just let me go early for once! Make an interview out of it. That . Julia Roberts was voted the worst dressed woman in the world. She's got some style! She I know. if you can wear that top. and she goes, no she wears it is! Yeah! Yeah! She can wear anything and carry it off! But they all notice about Just the bitchy America yo , cos somebody dresses you know with a bit of in ,in , you know individualism. The fucker! Ah! Bloody Nick , eh? Who cares! I'd sack him for that. You what babes? I'd sack him for that. Yeah, so would I. Sack him. Apart from anything else, it means I couldn't pick up what you said. Ah ah! What did you say? Fuck off! Eh! Another . Be able to pick that up you know. Er, oh aye, yes . They will! You shouldn't be so bloody rude Gavin ! What do you wanna do tonight then babe? Eh? Dunno. So? Hide them round there. Is i , is this tape ten you've put in anyway? Yeah. You'll have to change that then. Oh! Why don't you just put a line through it. Through ten and eleven. Aha. And then, on tape ten just put Gavin and Sue at home. Rightio.. Shut dog in. Shut that door! Gosh! It's ever so cold in this house! What do you wanna do tonight? Dunno. Laying on the table in them jeans. Tt! You! Enough! The tape . I shall have a bath, wash my hair. What you wearing tomorrow night? My black dress. Is it clean? It's gonna have to be. I think so, I think I washed it just before Christmas and I've only worn it once. Did I wear it over Chris , I didn't wear it at Christmas time did I? Or did I? I don't know. , what have you got to wear? It doesn't matter if it's clean. I'll have a look tonight. Check tonight. I'll get everything out tonight so you can just bring it with you. Yeah, okay. You tired babe? Yeah, oh yeah! Do you wanna stay in tonight or I don't know. Erm bom bom ! Mm. Oi! Stop biting your nails Sue! I can't help it! I just caught it! . Shut your gob! What have we got for tea? I don't know. Yeah! They're not going to in interview anybody with you. Oh! No, they might send me an application form back and then I'll send it back to them and they get an interview. Seems a when you're going for a bloody job! You know, cos they're wanting another part-timer to do seventeen hours. Oh yeah. And men don't particularly want that. Oh yeah. I said somebody like a middle-aged woman would be best who's got grown up children at work Yeah. and this, this guy came for it and, obviously Lynn can't say, we don't want to take a ma man on it'll be sex discrimination. Yeah. But it won't be suitable, I mean, one he's bloody crap! And erm , it's only seventeen hours, it's four hours a day so that's why it would suit somebody who's married. Is he a nice bloke? No! He's just stupid! He's, he's already come in for one form put it, he's obviously filled one form in, he came up and he said can I have an application form for that job in the window, so I gave him one and he went, oh well I've just filled one in. I thought I thought, did he just say can I have can I have an application form or here's an application form? And I looked at him, and he went , no I made a mistake on it. So he sto , do you know where the two tills are downstairs do you? Yeah. They were on the erm the main one we use Yeah. just by the step in, he was stood, resting on the erm perspex thing that is, that is erm till guard, and he's stood writing it on there cos he thought there was nowhere else. And stood blocking like, how I get round to the till! And you just couldn't absolutely see anything serving customer I was going to so , to move or change out my draw shutting it up, turning it off, going away and somebody else had come, he kept, kept, kept doing that and he was stood there all the time and I thought I thought you definitely won't get the job! Well you're, you're not bloody suitable for it cos you keep getting under my bloody feet! And then How old is he? I dunno. Probably about twenty three I think. And he's filled all the front in and the back, like, referees and everything and he said inside you've got to give your details of your erm employment history and he'd not put anything in, said I didn't know whether to put anything on there cos I'm on a Y P. I said, what you mean a Y T S? He sa , and he looked and he went yeah, Y T. And I says, well you know, is it, is it a job? You've got to put it down. And he went, well no it's not a job. I said, well what is it then? He said, well I'm training. I said, well training to do what? He says I'm training on a Y T S. Jesus Christ! Is he really thick or what! I still don't know what he's doing! He were working for an erm Macro or something. Macro? Yeah. Well maybe. Oh I'm, I'm thinking of Macro Macro wholesalers. Well I know Macro. And when he went, as he went, she says oh I don't think he'll have much choice, er, much chance do you? And we got this mad bloke come in! And the amount of people come in, with a cigarette I have to go up and tell them that it's a no-smoking area and they look at me as if I'm stupid! Did I tell you about that bloke the other week who got, the one who just cocky with me? Ooh God! He really got my back up! This young lad about probably about twenty three, twenty four, and he came in with a cigarette and I said excu excuse me but I'm afraid it's a no-smoking area. And he looked at me, and he said well have you got any, he go , started like tutting and said well have you got any signs up? And I must have been in a really funny mood, and I said yes we have it's on the till and he went well I suggest you get them in the windows then! And I felt like saying fuck off and get out ! But I thought they're obvious, do you know what I mean? It's like going to a firework factory and sparking up a cigarette you just wouldn't do it would you? You wouldn't! And this bloke come in today and erm looked a bit, looked a bit like a tramp didn't quite catch what he said, I'm sure he said God sent me in here for a cigarette! I said,, I said I'm sorry it's a no-smoking area. And he looked at me, give me a really horrible look as well! Felt like going you know, how when somebody put a lot of hate in their eyes? That's very, bad as what you give No. me every day. I can't do it. You know like th if you look at someone and they always say your eyes are the souls o yo , like your soul aren't they? You can always read people's eyes, especially with your kind of facial expressions, cos the eyes always tell the truth. And he looked u like he really hated me! Probably did! What, cos I told him he couldn't smoke? No! Probably just hates everybody! Probably, yeah. Yeah, he was a bit weird! Ooh! Get off! Just Hope he's not late. Yeah, so do I. What time is it? Half seven. I don't know. I think he picks me up after Coronation Street, are you going to be here? Yeah. I wish I got this fish in butter. I thought we put them back and had erm Ah! We did do. fish in breadcrumbs, that's why, we wanted fish. Wanted something really tasty! Well you got it, it is really tasty! No. What about those chicken things I bought? Chicken what? chicken things didn't we? Did we? Cheese and pasta something. Ah broccoli! I don't fancy cos I didn't enjoy that chicken wings last night and that had broccoli in it. Oh! Narrows it down don't it, to mince pies? There's only one. I'll have that. Ha! There is only one. That, the mince pie's the only one. Ah we got a big one haven't we? That's it. Well could have that. Yeah, I quite fancy that actually. Roast potatoes and gravy. We haven't got that much potatoes Gavin, that's what I said. Oh! Have to have it with chips then. Steak pie and chips. We've hardly got any chips in there. Eh? No, but I could fry some new potatoes cos I think we've got some of those left. We have got a tin of those. Have we? Oh, they'll come in handy actually. I have some of them with beans. Yeah. I fancy some . Yeah! I could do with putting that pie in now cos it's gonna take about forty minutes. Yes you will! That is really good thinking on your part ! You can get it on now then . You get, you prepare tea and then don't know whether finish it off in the shoot off. Er And then, well if you're going out that way you take all this washing up. Well, no actually cos I'm not going I'm not going up the stairs I'm going in the kitchen Gavin! Oh! The ham's gone. Yes. Well that . Have you eaten them all you greedy pig? Have you? I think there's, one left. I kept kicking it the other day and I thought well it feels ever so light, I thought there was quite a few left. I had four. Ah well you can go to Co-op then. And er Ah ah! Got time to clean my teeth? Yes. What I'd really like Eh? What I'd really like Well,with that, those pork chops and I forgot. Pork chops! Pork chops! I'm going to have get . What I'd really like About half an hour. is erm a corned beef sandwich. Well make one! Eh? Well make one. I will. And what I'd really like you know I have little things that bug you to death? Yep! Well you leaving your fucking crusts on the top do my head in! Gavin! I couldn't put them anywhere the bin is full ! You know, so come on get your act together! Take the bin outside. Well you've put a fucking enough in the other one so what was wrong with that? Oh! Because Look, it's full up look they won't go in. Ah look! They're in! Oh! Shit! Shit! Shit! Shit! Shit! Well I don't like . I'll take it It's full! out tomorrow. Well I can't no more rubbish in Gav! So, we'll have to take it out tonight, the both of us. No, forget it! But we can't fit any more rubbish in! Mm. You know what'll happen if I come home and it's not been done! You'll get a big smack! I think we should have an early night. You were so nice to me last night. Mm. It was lovely! I felt Mm mm. really close to you again then. I felt close to you as well babe! You've forgotten it now but That's gonna be a bit gonna be a bit loud that Gav. Well, they'll turn it down won't they? Stop go stop going on about the bloody microphone! Just forget it darling! Shut your neck alright! Well you can't you make tea already? No I haven't!here. Where is it? I have to go to toilet again. Ooh don't! Oh well take that washing upstairs then if you're going upstairs. No! I'm not gonna take it upstairs! Oh babe! Don't be so fucking petty ! I'm not being petty Gav! You are babe ! No , I'm not! You are! I was gonna make a stand then. I said I'll help you more than I do, than I do. And I will. But, when it comes to something that is either mine or yours Our friend's here! Then I won't do it! As simple as that! Come in! Hi! Cos you're sti still on tape so can you speak up. Ah right! Even up to the last. Very good! Right, now there's a few questions I've gotta ask you Ooh! and I thought now Sorry, it's so cold . Right. Erm first thing, how many erm erm how many tapes have you used? I thought I'd used eleven Yeah. but I've only, in fact, used ten because someone took the microphone in and put it back in the wrong place. Right. So that's just ten. Right! Erm so Haley paid you the comp , the booklet you filled in. Everyone . So hotel is right? Right. Er, now thinking of the experience of recording your conversations using the personal stereo and filling in the booklet how do you find this in general? Er doing the tape's is okay. Erm you occasionally forget it's there which makes your conversation more natural but you also forget to turn the tape over Right. every forty five minutes. Well, if you did you do, you'd use a damn sight more than twenty tapes a week so Yeah. Erm Filling the booklets a bit of a pain! So she's Yeah, hang on a minute! Erm Sorry! Just supposed to be word for word but it's a bit of a erm Right, filling in booklet's a er a bit of a pain. Yeah. Did you have any problems? No! I must say that, no I mean a , by being a pain I mean er just try and remember to fill it in or do th people speaking with you. With all Yeah. But generally speaking, you know, did you have any problems or No. No. Yeah. That's alright. Erm of the conversations you had during the week about how many of them would you say you recorded? Erm most of them. Did you tend to count these? The next one is er thinking about the conversations you did not record which of these was the main reason why they weren't recorded please just read out the numbers on the card. Can you read more than one Yeah. or Yeah. Yeah? Erm one er four seven. And er were there any other reasons not on the card? Erm I think of those. Yes. Yeah? Erm now, do you know anybody you spoke to, right? Yes. Yes. did anyone you spoke to during the time you were recording object to being recorded? No. There i , there are a number of things that might affect the way in which we speak and how we use language in every day conversation, such as where we live, where we went to school, what hobbies and interests we have and so on. So I'd like to ask you er, I'll move on and ask you a few questions about places you've lived in the past. Firstly, in which town were you born? Is that, that Lancashire is it? Merseyside. It's in Merseyside. And in which town an er were living when you were at primary school? Erm place called Tarleton actually in a little village. Yeah. How do you spell that? T A R L E T O N. And what county's that? That's Lancashire. Now then, which town er, were you living when you were at secondary school? The same. Tarleton. How long have you been living at this address? Erm in ? Actually in Birmingham or No, this, this address. Erm about three weeks. Yeah. Three weeks. Three weeks. Have you ever lived in any other places for three years or more since leaving school? I mean in a different town, not just Well, yeah. a different address. Only my parent's. And where was that? Southwell. Oh! Since leaving school was that? Yeah, well we moved Yeah. to Torquay. Oh after from that place? Now er I'd like to move on about, to wha erm talk about what you do in your leisure time. Do you ever watch television. Mm. Er, can you Oh! First thing, on average how many hours a day do you watch television nowadays? Er not a lot. About one, or about two About three. About three you say. About two. Er, on card C, which of these channels do you watch most often nowadays? Coronation Street. About eight! Eight! Yeah ! Do you ever listen to the radio? Erm in my car when I work. Er, which radio station do you usually listen to? Radio One. Er, could you look at card D please? Which of these daily papers do you usually read? I mean, at least four issues a week. Every one. Well a a at least four times a week? Every one. Not the financial times. So, the local one? Yeah. Daily Express? Daily Mail? Mirror? Daily Record? You look at the Daily Record, that's a Scottish paper? Yeah, I get it delivered. Oh right. Er, Daily Star? Telegraph? No Not Financial Times. Not Times. Guardian, Independent, The Sun, The Times, Today? Yeah. Er, oh yeah! It's not on there is it? Is it? Oh it's not. Is it? Yeah. It's not erm it's not on my list. Oh! It's not on th on here? That's why I read them out really, in case there's any sort of. Er, on card E, which of these Sunday papers or colour magazines do you usually read? Er, I mean at least three out of every four issues. Er I suppose there was, the Sunday Express Sunday Mercury, Sunday Mirror, Sunday People Sunday Sport Sunday Sport. And do you look at the You magazine with Mail on Sunday? Sorry! The magazines. Yeah, You And the Sunday er, News of the World magazine Mm. Sunday Express magazine Sunday Mirror. The others don't have one do they? There isn't actually erm, on card F, which of these magazines or type of magazines do you usually read? Erm Just say the numbers that's all. Right. Er eight did you say usually or Just says usually read. Er It doesn't give a definition what usually means. Yeah. Nine. Erm that's probably it. I got the others occasionally but to name them would be er Good! Could you look at card G. Do you read or use books at all nowadays for any of the following reasons? Well only So to help you work or study, general reference and interests all that sort of stuff. No. Now, thinking just about the last few weeks about how many hours a week, on average, have you spent reading books for pleasure? Oh. Erm,? Er thinking about the last few weeks about how many hours a week on average? One ! Only about one hour a week, right. Erm, thinking about the books that you've read, er, for pleasure, over the last twelve months would you say they've been all, or mostly fiction? All or mostly non-fiction? Or about equal quantities? About equal quantities. Books you've read for pleasure. About equal quantity? Yeah. Think about your spare, or time, or leisure time in general, what regular hobbies or interests do you have? Music. How do you mean, erm listen to or play some Listen or listening and er playing . Erm play tennis. Sport I . Again, do you mean playing it, go and see it? No, watch it on the telly or playing it . Anything else? Erm the cinema. The theatre. If we were to carry out a similar survey in the future and recording conversations would you be willing to take part? Yeah. Yeah. Right thanks! Ta! Turn this off, the tape? Yeah. Er I'll turn this off now then. Yeah. You've left what where? Water in the sink. I'm telling Angela. They're a blight that's all there is I've done all the other dishes and everything. Well who were you talking to anyway about the rain? The staff at Oh. What were you saying to them about We were laughing about it. Cos I was telling them that we were sick of seeing the rain and that. Yes. You know cos the rain won't stop all day. And I said to them I said I watched a film last night called Savage Sea. And I said all the way through the film practically they were praying for rain. Mm. Right? And there's us saying that we were sick of the rain. So I says erm someone turned round and said, Oh should come here you can have some of ours. And they were laughing. They were laughing at it. Oh. Cos I turned round and said that. Oh never seen that before. Oh. What? D'ya want me to erm have this set now for in the morning while? No. Be able to set your clock. Cos you know how to set that don't you? Mhm. Nineteen pounds ninety five. Although I don't know. Twenty one ninety five and they were twenty two pounds What's that doing? What's that doing? What's what doing? That. It's recording. Recording what? You. Why? Eh? Why is it recording me? Well why not? Ask your mother. Why? Well my sister recording this. Where you getting that from? Ask your mother. Where is she? Go and tell her. Where are you? Where are you? Your daughter wants you. She's in bathroom. What's this? She wants to know what that is. It it's a test from now till next Friday all the conversations we have. Why? And you know when you have ordinary conversation when we're talking or anything Why? on a conversation. It's for Oxford University to use. If it's anything that's really personal and you don't want it taping you can erase it and you get a twenty five pound voucher next Friday. You do it for Marks and Spencers for doing it. Oh? So is that yours? No it belongs to the people Oxford University use the English language. It's what English language be using now in nineteen ninety. In the libraries and everything. Oh. So has that just been recording all that I've just all I've just said? Yeah. But it doesn't matter does it? I mean you'd have a conversation anyway. We talk in the house don't we? Or we had Are you bothered? Am I bothered? Yes. She's not saying Depends what I'm talking about. Well you've just talked about talking about. the rain. There's nothing wrong with that. Well nothing but d'ya know what I mean it's sort of. It's like at work erm Mark put two speakers one for listening and one for hearing Yeah. right? You know in case one of the residence needs help or anything Yeah. during the night. So he put one in the living room and he put one in the kitchen. Yeah. Now the the girls didn't know it was there and it's a good job that they weren't talking about him or talking about anybody. Why? Otherwise we'd have heard what they were saying. Oh would they? Now me I think that's sneaky. D'ya know what I mean? Well that isn't because Because if there's anything personal you can erase it. But the more tapes I do and when I've she's coming for it eleven o'clock next Friday. Oh when I do it for the week I'm gonna get a twenty five pound voucher for Marks and Spencers. Well can we can we rewind that back and listen to it? Yeah if you want yes. Through headphones but you can't the tape's not full yet. But it doesn't matter. I think you'd better switch it off anyway hadn't you? Cos nobody's gonna be having a conversation. You're going in the garage now. We're having a conversation now aren't you? I'm going to the bedroom. You're talking now. I'm talking now Now that is conversation talking. You're also talking posh as well. Yeah. I'm not. You are. you're not You can erase that now. Why? Cos you can't I don't want that on the tape. You don't want what on the tape? What you two have just said to me. What? I want it erased. Why? Cos That you're talking posh. I don't need you two You're doing it nobody else. I'm not. Of course you are. I'm not. Of course you are. How d'ya press stop? How d'ya press stop. No it's You press the button. Which one? The one that says stop. Can you see? There that's better light. The army at Leyland and she would have big stuff on you know. She had a big she had a big er a great big cardigan and a fish all way down back. Well, ha David said,we didn't know. And er she says er, what did they call her? Who are you talking about? Her with great fish on her. Oh Miss Anderson. Miss Anderson. Aye. Oh you can have that on. Oh will I sell it. Is it on? Aye Oh well. Er she said er er Doris said, Doris , she says er, Oh captain she says er isn't it Anderson coming tonight? And she said, Yes I suppose so. So she says , Oh I hope she doesn't come with that great big cardigan on with that great big fish on the back of her on her back on her cardigan. Mm. She said, She she's big enough she said why do wear that great big fat always have to have heavy clothing. She said, I'm going to see her she said and if she has it on I'm going to take her on one side and I'm going to say, Miss Anderson will you let me tell you how to dress. She said you want nice fine things when you're fat to make you slimmer. Not that great big thing on. And as she was say as she was telling us this the door bell went. And in she come . And she said and she said thank you she said, Miss Anderson she said she ought to have more sense than come in a thing like that she said to the officers. And of course Miss Anderson entered the door and she said, Oh she said is that talking about me? And you're dad said, Oh no no. And we just flipped right quick you see. And Doris said, Oh thank you she said did I didn't know that we're recording. Well I said it you said it and it's the truth. She said, Why should she wear. It was a great you know er I know I remember it. er big heavy knitted cardigan and this great big fish on the back. Well it was terrible really. Well we had such a laugh about it you know. She said, Oh she said I thought it was talking about me. So Doris said, Oh well I don't know what's on that she said. Oh dear me. So you see you never know do you? Oh Well I was telling dad that at work Mark's just got like two speaker things. One's for listening and one's talking into. He put one in one room and one in the other. Well they came in a in a parcel the other the other day. And er he says go and sneak in in the kitchen and put it in the kitchen. So we were all sitting in the living room. Well you could hear everything. And one of the woman one of the woman she came through and she said, I'm sorry, she said, but I'm not happy about that. And I said to dad I said, It's a good job they weren't talking about one of the other staff or anything or about Mark or anything. D'ya know what I mean? I think I think it's sneaky me. I think it's sneaky having that on Oh they put it out in to to see if anybody's talking about him do they? Well not specifically for that. Well what's it in aid of? It's for what it is it's if say like Mark or the staff were upstairs Mm. and the residence are downstairs Mm. if somebody needed erm a member of staff Oh it has to be on all the time has it? they would hear them. Mm. They would hear that they wanted help or anything. I mean we've got call buttons. Mm. Yes. But what it is it's come in a great big pack package thing these two speakers. Mm. They've come with erm And they're all the time are they? Mhm. Well cos they would have to be won't they? Cos you don't go Come erm just going to have to ring. Couldn't ring. with coloured felt tip pens. Mhm. And felt tip pens I mean there's about five five lots in different colours. Mm. And erm paper crayons pencils it's like a package Mm. for er mentally handicapped home Mm. and that. And it came with them. thing is Mind if I stay in the right place. Then you're not afraid are you? said you know one there's always one that you don't like when you're working in a big group. Well Molly she was the one that came through and she wasn't happy. Mm. She said it was sneaky the way he did it. Oh. If he'd have turned round and said, Look I'm putting this in the kitchen I'm gonna be listening to what you're saying then she wouldn't minded . Oh well wouldn't have been saying anything then would they ? Yeah but she wouldn't have minded. if she's not satisfied with it she should tell him. It's no But good telling everybody else. But they could've been talking about something personal and we would've heard everything they said. Mm. D'ya know what I mean? Well no if first in reverse isn't it? Yeah. Well you don't speak up do you? No. If you you think it's gonna be recorded and you don't know. Well you just It is just like a baby alarm. Well any anyway personal you know don't talk in a crowd You can hear them but they can't hear you. do you if it's personal No. at all personal. No well that's it. I mean you don't talk personal things And there should've been shout across the room to them. Well it's put your own in. Mm. I'm going to pinch a leek now. five. five. How old am I? Pardon? Took his er took er my dad's last whisky. Last of the orders. Oh dear. all the residents today. Have you had them all there? I've had them all there yeah. All seven of them came for dinner. It was really a success. Oh. I'm breaking them in for a horse. Erm No you don't need to now. You don't need to. I'll put that on side Erm we just like put a big spread on a big buffet. We had erm little pork sausage rolls And you didn't invite me? no. Yes. Get off your bum then. Erm we had little pork sausage rolls pork pies cut up erm this is what Oh where's my glasses? Where's my glasses? This is what erm this is what all the shopping was for when I got drenched. Erm sandwiches we got buns from erm you know where the centre is? The will be taking out isn't it? Safeway What? in the erm No it's natural isn't it ? salads erm little hot dogs cut up. We just did a big buffet. In sat the residents down and then we sort of like hovered. You know we just sort of like got our own stuff. We had jelly and cakes biscuits for afterwards. So it was really nice. And then afterwards we went into erm went into the room and erm we put some compact discs on some music on and that. And we got these drawings these these Going out anyway. people and what have you out. And erm did some drawings with them and that. And it was really a nice help anyway. Cos I said my grandparents were Scottish . One of the staff that I work with Who was that It's a stereo microphone on it as well. she's erm What you doing you? one of the staff Well don't play out with things then one of erm one of the staff I work with talks like Richard. She's from Kent Mm. and she's got Richard's accent. She speaks very similar accent. Mm. But erm you know when Richard Can you get cigarettes love out of my pocket? when Richard says, Don't worry, Mm. she's got the same accent and she's from Kent and Martin Yeah well they're all the same. But they're all. But she was saying she was say same thing. Well that's that's partly what they want to find out as well. Cos I mean if you put Aunty Mary down on there,Yorkshire. I suppose they'd say that's not a Yorkshire accent she's talking No but But you see this is what they want to find out now the dialect's changed in In all That's it. last night but there was a request for Was there? Yeah. A request for on Frank Oh oh Arthur a request from oh I know yeah That were that were flat Now what were they the other week from I don't yeah. From near Yeah granddad I was saying you know when erm you know when Richard was saying it's an insult to be called a cockney when he's not a cockney. She was saying the exact same thing. Yes well I said it's not cockney. It's an insult to be called a cockney. Their accent isn't cockney. That's right they're not. But she was saying the exact same thing cos I was and he acts as my . Goes mad when you have to call him a cockney . Well one of us today did he say cockney. Doesn't mean nothing wrong by it No. it just he says well to me London's cockney. Yeah yes. But it's not cockney. No a lot of people say that. No but I mean er I don't agree with this I don't agree with this. Er like er Richard said er you shouldn't say bus. Mm. Well that to me is ignorant. It's picking you up before you fall. It is picking you up before you fall. And I don't agree with that because we're right where's the bus. There's no bus. It's bus if you want to say bus. it's not bus. Alright if they say that's their their talk. Vase a vase. He would say a vase. Yeah he would say a vase. Like Aunty Mary does but they say that down there. Well alright we know what they mean. But why have they change why have it always picking people up and saying er they're just carrying on. it's a bus it's a bus. He was just winding her up. Yeah well I mean they shouldn't wind people up I mean she's just. I mean you if you said a bus I'd said, Oh what's up with our June what's where she what's she who's she trying to. And then these people that do this they don't they? But that's on there on that tape. Cos to me I wasn't but they said I was talking posh on the tape. No. D'ya no I'm not just cos I I said it's a waste of tape. Mm. A waste of tape. Yeah. A waste of tape. That's not posh. No well you said that a actually as it came. You didn't study it to say I didn't study no I just Er er you know. Well it's like er now that sometimes when you've been doing the message you know you might talk a little bit different but I mean he's had elocution lessons. If I were took I would talk whatever She says I'm doing now she says I'm doing it now she says I'm doing now. I would say to the queen what I say to you. You can't hear it yourself but you are. But she's not if it's coming natural. I'm doing it now. I always say that. What? I'm doing it now. Yeah. That's not posh she says it's posh No it is it comes out you see. Yeah it's not she was No speaking posh. Ah she's er when you think about it and say, Well I wouldn't talk posh. I mean as I say if the queen came I would talk how I like your nan. She was nearly afraid of me. afraid of you . You weren't of afraid of me but the accent that I had at that time. You see I'd been Oxford. See you said to me, Oh cos I'm ever I I was brought up in Oxford. so pleased to meet you. D'ya know that's how Arthur was when I first met him and and he was . And when I took him out I'm telling you I was just telling Angela, my dad went you know just like that. Mm. Yeah but you see but I mean we weren't broad. I mean there's dad and his mum and Arthur we weren't we weren't broad. So Me mother's not broad like me dad. No. Me dad was broad. Mm. But I would've never I would've never said to your dad well he's saying ah he weren't too broad in my opinion like but he was broader than your mother. He was broad but he knew But er his manners mind you . well of course he did. Yes I mean that's noth that's that's nothing to do with it. But er no I don't care how. We had a lady at Dixon Mrs Brigadier . And she said to me, she was from Manchester, well she used to talk Manchester Lancashire. And she said to me she said, Mrs she said, I like to hear to talk because she said you don't put no airs on. She said you say what you've got to say and people understand you. She said and that's all that matters. She said er er now well Doris used to say erm what's this tea Angela says She what's that tea? No. this tea mum? Angela says when I'm on the phone she can hear me Stoke on Trent accent. Well I can't help I don't know when No no Yeah but when you're talking to somebody official you speak posh. Oh she doesn't she doesn't Oh hello. Oh hello. Look who's talking. Yes look who's talking. No Look who's talking. No granny well I don't and I think I know So do you. I don't. On the telephone you do . I do not. Now I will say to you, Come on June what we having for tea? But if there were somebody posh here I might say, What are we having for our tea? I might say that. Now in Lancashire there are different accents in Lancashire . says if if there were a tape record on you would say, Now what are we having for tea? What are we having for our tea? I thought about it. I've got no airs and graces. No neither would I. When we went to Leyland we would say, What we having us tea? But in Leyland they said, What we having for tea? Yeah. Well I say Can you imagine Aunty Emma being on she say, Nay. Nay she'd say yeah. D'ya know What I What are we having what what are we having for the tea. what we having what we what we having for the tea. So that Yeah. It's just something you're not doing it deliberate. No. Well I think the daft I say they say they pick us up but why I don't know. Because when you say, Away man. I know. Well you're er goes away. I know. Why d'ya except to come to you when they're say away. Daft isn't it? Yes. No David was on that tape Stay away man with laughter Stupid. someone put Stoke on Trent because that's where he's from. Mm yeah. Not from here. No. I mean it a there are accents where they are . speaks Geordie. Well he does. But it but it's er I don't care but he was but I don't know why. Because it is blunt Geordie's our David's speech. Well yeah when Michael's up he starts speaking Stoke. Yes but I mean Michael doesn't speak Geordie. I mean he's he's proper silly is David. You can hear Why I that's Stoke isn't it? Mind sometimes if it's If it's it's not done deliberate. I've noticed when , mind I do it deliberate sometimes, but ordinary I don't. It's because I'm with my I'll say duck. Mm. Well I did the other day didn't I ? It just slipped out. Yeah yeah. I mean er I never say that normally. I mean we've picked words But mum from all over the country. I've more or less lost that sense of being with Arthur. But on the odd occasion it'll slip out. Yes. See did you hear that ? You can't tell . Being. Whereas they'd say bin. I would not. No she wouldn't. She would. She'd have said, Since I've bin with Arthur. But cos that's on she says cos since I've with Arthur. No I I think all the time. I think you you talk as it comes. I do yes. Well like I do and if if I say Yeah. er Normally she'd say yeah. We shall have that, or shall we have that. Or er You might just think always Nan. You know what she's just said then? picking you up before you fall aren't they? Yes yes . Aren't they. Well I do say Yes. that. Yes. You know when she said erm than what you have. You know when she said, You do yes. Normally she'd say, You do yes. Not all the time. They do don't they? She'd say if you weren't thinking. No your mother talks your mother doesn't talk posh. She talks what she's been born to talk . She when when the tape's on or No you don't . or if she's on the phone. Mum she nan she don't normal. I don't think so. She does cos Cos she'd say . No she wouldn't. She'd say, Blah don't talk to daft June. Where's your bus. I mean Aunty Mary, well I don't given up talking to her she'd she says bus and I just let it go. Yeah well Richard does that Richard says it's not bus it's bus. It isn't where do they get the bus and bath. Bath is B A R T H . It's B A T H it's bath . I know. It's bath. It's Newcastle not Newcastle. But if they say Newcastle well alright but I wouldn't say anything . Newcas Newcastle. I wouldn't say anything because it's ignorant. Picking people up before they fall. You know what they mean and that's all that matters. And they don't say, I know. They say, I know I know. I know. I know. Yeah. Yeah well if they say that I wouldn't say I wouldn't pick them up. I know I know It's I know. picking them up before they fall. Picking people up before they fall . Oh no. Oh no. My sister says that a lot. Oh no. She'd just get a bash across the mouth if you kept picking me up. Does she mess about with your as well? Well I'll tell you what I should say I've just as much When I was down there for the weekend I was speaking their accent. Dad said. Oh well your dad used to got to Scotland for the day and when he come back he was Scotch. I know. I mean he didn't need to go anywhere . Erm when dad When he'd been home for a month. Mm. He was talking an American. When dad phoned us when I was down there he says, When you come back you can get rid of that acce you can get back to your own accent . You can drop your acc you can drop that accent. Yeah but Arthur she only takes after you for that. I can't help it though. Wherever I Because you used to to that. go I pick up the accent. It was like when I went down to Liverpool. I started speaking Oh but Geordie. Does she? Yeah. Don't she? Oh aye. But er you don't need to say, Oh aye. You say, Oh yes . And they kept on saying I know I know I know I know. And I kept You was brought up to say, Oh yes. Not, Oh aye. Oh aye I don't pass myself to tape recorder No. I know you don't pass yourself out. I think you're you're you're not passing yourself you're not speaking as you ought. Because you would never dream of saying, Oh aye. Oh aye. I would. Because Geordies say that don't they ? Now June's father would say, Oh aye. But it he'd he'd take it and forget it . Oh aye the No. And he could he would And he would say he would say waiter for water or water . He would bet it. Who? My dad. But not you. Because you've not been brought up to speak broad. Oh haven't I? No. Oh. Oh haven't I. Why haven't You haven't been you haven't been brought to speak Me dad was broad but me mother wasn't Ooh Shh. But you've been brought you've never had any slang Ooh from us. I wasn't brought up mum Granddad didn't use slang because he were Norfolk man. I wasn't brought up having Now June June'd say what granddad said,Ask'd June'd say, I asked you I asked her. Like we would say. June would say,Ask'd That's a bit of the the Norfolk in her. down there weren't you? Dorset. Dorset. And that is a bit of that. Cos er cos er my my dad used to say that. Asked. No not asked. Ask'd. Ask'd There's something else. There's another way of and An Angela'll say it. But it's not ask I mean it's it's er er What? takes after. 'Tisn't Lancashire. What? Well I can't just remember what the word is now. But I'll tell you next time I say Would? it. or, I saw. No. Saw her. I saw her. Saw her. Your mother says, I saw her. Well that's Norfolk. Well that's Norfolk. My dad used to say, I saw her. He say, I saw her. I've always said that. Yes well it's your er your Dorset in you. I've got all sorts in me. I must have all sorts in me. But because you say, I saw her, it isn't it isn't wrong. We all know what you mean. Actually I should speak some Geordie with having a Geordie mother shouldn't I? We all know what you mean. Well she were she weren't broad Geordie you see. No she's what you call as as Arthur says, A posh Geordie. Well no. She she's doesn't talk Allan at Leadgate. He talks with a Geordie accent but it's a cultured Geordie accent. Yeah. Why now what was there somebody on the television Frank was saying from Hartlepool. lived next door to us . Now honestly you could hardly tell what he says can you? Well I says to your mother one time when we'd been downtown and your passing through Ooh Roy is awful int he? Terrible. Mm. Yeah. I said I said to her, They're talking foreign language. talking real broad Yorkshire . You say, Int he, a well. Well I say that. Broad Geordie. Yeah well that's probably got that Yeah well I say, Int he. But it or if I were to be thinking I'd say, Isn't he. Or I might say, Isn't he. talking to your dad some things if if er I don't agree on something I'll say, Nay Arthur that's Aunty Emma isn't it ? I used to love, ee I used to love going, Nay. You know. What next. But my language on the platform's entirely different to what I speak Yeah but not You're not broad Yorkshire but you're not posh Charlie. Charlie Williams int it that's broad Yorkshire int it? Yes. Charlie Williams. Cos I said many a times Arthur No. You say, Thee, though. Well There you go. No you know what I mean. Granddad says, Thee . Yeah yeah he does say, Thee. Cos I've heard him say, Thee. No he doesn't say, Thee, when he might when he's fooling about with you . says, Hey thee. No he doesn't. Not not for normal talk. No granddad doesn't say, Thee. No. Thou aye Who says thee thy though thou isn't Quakers. It's er the Know I am with thee always. Yes he'll say that. But not not when he's Quakers talk not when he means you. I don't think that comes up much in conversations though does it ? I think it was James that was in a film once What? Thou though I am with three. No but I was saying that, Thou I am with thee always, that it wouldn't say Do you remember that film James was it James was in it wasn't he? when he means you. He would say, Thee come here. Did you tape that today? Well me dad might have done. You come here birdie. But er no that's what Arthur used to say,Come here birdie. Never say, Come here. He say, Come here birdie. Your dad. Some of the Geordie accents I can't understand them saying, Away man. No well they say, Away man, and expe expect child to come to them. I say come here . How can you come to you're always saying, Away. How can he But you don't say, Away. You do. You say, Away man. Away man. No you say, Away. Well, Away man . That's stupid. You say away you mean away. But you don't not if it's a Geordie child it knows to come there otherwise it gets a clip across the lug. What? If I was talking to my You say away when you mean come here. and they were behind I'd say, Come here now hurry up. Yes. You know. Yes. You know. If you break your leg don't come running here to me. What? What says. You what? If you don't break if you break your leg If you breaks your leg don't come running to me crying. If you break you leg don't come running. How could you come running if you broke your leg? if you breaks your leg don't come running to me crying. If thou breaks the leg Don't come running to me . If they breaks the leg. If they If thou breaks the the leg Don't come running to me. running to me. If thou breaks the leg don't come running to me. No. Oh dear. when he was a My dad had a problem saying broken he'd probably say, Broken. Yeah mm well he had a little bit of of er what shall we say slang if that's the word. But he wasn't he wasn't Wasn't dead rotten No. No. But we didn't I mean never Arthur never had any broad broad broad Lancashire. Arthur never heard. Because me dad didn't talk broad Lancashire. Me mother didn't because she weren't Lancashire . Mm? Never er not what you can call swear me dad you know. No. Well where did grandma come from? My mum came from Bacup. Bacup. That's Kent int it? No. Thought Bacup was in Kent . Lancashire? Lancashire int it? But there is a Bacup in Kent int there? I don't know. Yeah there is. Bacup. Bacup in Kent. Then they came to live at . Why d'ya mean Why? Where did Aunty Lilly's husband come from? Did he did he come from ? Yes he was from er . Yes. So a language all of her own when she's on the phone talking to us. Me dad came to live er me dad from Norfolk he came in shepherd boy she had a bit of Geordie . But the best one out the lot I do Stoke. What is the time please? The best accents I do out the lot of them is yours. The best I I don't talk like that any more now because people think I You do as your own I've lost me own . Just the odd word now. Just the odd word now. It comes out what you want it to come out has to come out. I've been with your dad that long I just I've been with your dad that long. Been with dad that long. You you can tell you're from Stoke on Trent. Well how come then people say, What part of Lancashire you from? Yes. Because they're ignorant . Or No they're not ignorant. Not ignorant when they say. Well they are ignorant cos I would never say which part of . Fellow said to me the other week you don't live here. I said, Oh yes I do . Stoke on Trent. It isn't. It is. That's Lancashire. I would never pick anybody up. Well I think I talk more with a Lancashire accent than I do a Stoke on Trent accent. If you can tell what you say that's all that matters isn't it ? You wait till you rewind that tape back and listen to yourself and you'll hear Stoke on Trent. I know cos Stoke on Trent you're saying Stoke. Cos mum does. Well it's not Stoke it's Stoke. It's Stoke. Stoke. Stoke. Stoke on Trent. You listen to Michael talking. You say to Michael You my brother . If you if you say to Michael, Michael where do you come from? He say Stoke on Trent. Stoke. D'ya know what our Michael says when he he's telling anybody's not there he's coming up here? Our Michael when he's telling anybody in Stoke on Trent that he's coming up here. He'll say I'm going to Durham. He doesn't say South Shields. He says I'm going to Durham. I'm going to Durham I'm going to Durham see. I'm going to Durham. That is Stoke I'm going to Durham. Yes well it is but You alright duck. But she's a right to say that because she is You alright duck? She is right to say Oh you little duck. Oh you little duck. but she doesn't say it very often. What's his name Bobby , Oh you little duck. Oh you little duck. I love accent me. She doesn't say She's really broad isn't she? Well she's Stoke. Stoke or whatever you want to say. Blaydon. I used to live at Blaydon. Blaydon. Stoke or whatever you want to say . Well that's what it's called Blaydon. Actually speaking proper Eng proper English it's Blayton ton. Blayton. Not Blaydon. I say Blaydon. Blaydon. make her own dinner aye Arthur? Mm. Well it's like Harpenden. Well there's nobody likes talk You don't you don't Aye you can. Harpenden you say Harpenden. Oh I always think about Mrs . She I I mean she were brigadier and she'd gone through all her life I bet realize she said that. What? Aye they can. What? Aye they can. Then she said Arthur say that. You just said, Aye they can What? Can what? I said if nobody like the way I talk they can lump it and you said, Aye they can. Mm. Aye. Aye aye you see? They're not threatening to Nan says, Aye, a lot. You say, Aye, a lot you do. Well I've never heard you I am hole in the ground with water water. Only the odd occasion I've heard your nan say, No. But Aunty Annie used to say, Nay, a lot . I am the great I am. Aunty Lilly used to say, Nay, didn't she ? I'm the yes I am. I'll say this if anybody wants to I say this pick fault in way I talk well I don't think to hear Well I tell you as broad as Aunty Annie. Pardon? She is. To me Aunty Annie didn't But Oh no. as broad as Aunty Annie . But if you hear her on a if you hear her on a tape recorder she is. Mm. We've two or three recordings of Aunty Annie and er You're saying she is broad on them all. You say about Richard's accent if you hear his sister she's even broader . No I don't say anything about Richard's accent. He lives down there he's Harpenden. He's southern. Alright. Well he doesn't live down there now. Well let me ex he is he's southern. So that's their talk. I mean I I don't mind place int it? But you listen to Richard and you listen to his sister and hear the difference and they're both from the same place. Well I don't know why that is . You hear the difference. When I hear Richard I can hear Aunty Mary . You get that in lots of Richard I can hear Aunty Mary . Well you can when you hear his sister. Yeah. I mean you wouldn't you wouldn't think for one minute that Aunty Mary came from . No. But she was more southern than Vic. Weren't you? Mm. Although when she stayed with us in Aug he speaks with a southern accent . Yes Uncle Billy. Well to me it When she were talking to us Aunty Mary you could hear some Yorkshire accent. You could hear the Yorkshire coming through. Yeah couldn't we? Mm. Cut glass and you could fall through window. Couldn't we? Yeah. Couldn't we. If we had Aunty Mary Well you don't You don't. say what you're saying. What? Talks posh Uncle . Mm. He pronounces er don't he? Yeah well if. Talking glass cut glass and you see first of all it was the fact that she was living amongst and Ee well living with Sally and Sally was. Sally wouldn't talk that. But Sally never really went out to work. He did. And he was Definitely talks posh. I mean was a man he was management. Yeah I know but well why haven't you got? Because I haven't Talking like your fault. No. All over the world you've been. Well I've got bits of everything . But you're still He's not rough. He's no. So why Aye? Be the day that he's ever been. Dad. I'm not. you are. Yes you are. What? Yes you are. Because turn it off a minute turn it off a minute. Off a minute. Dad. D'ya call Stockton people as Geordies? No. No. But they are aren't Big rolls of cloth in the mill. Yeah seen Arthur Arthur . Yeah. Yeah. Well our Ar we used to have to carry their own. But out Annie she was because erm ship you know and our Annie used to have to carry her own. Well she used to have to give some give somebody sixpence which were a lot of money in them days. Carry it for her. Sam would never carry it. And he would never let our Emma carry it. And all nasty things he did to her. And the doctor said, Yes. And that's what it's all about. It's been so impregnated in the child's mind that she just Well they just couldn't they couldn't fathom it because he used to did you get on alright? Well yes in a way. We didn't have a lot to do with him really . Well I kept well I I got on alright with him cos he I were a lot younger and he used to give me sixpence to go and get some ice cream so as I them would be on their own a bit you see. Well . . I thought you were wonderful giving me money and I'd be right quick and he'd say,be so long getting that. Here's another sixpence go for something else. And I thought he were wonderful cos he kept giving me money you see. And even he had like their their wedding ring was in a little purse. Well when that Joe and Annie got married Joe gave me the little purse with a threepenny bit in. Well felt a millionaire with threepenny bit. And that when our Alice got married Jim gave it me with a threepenny bit in. But when Sam got married he's had to have a sixpence in. You see he was that always had to be showing off and. But er oh he wasn't liked at all. Aunty Emma children but she miscarried didn't she? Only one she had that's all. But er two Oh she he was nasty. And er She were really good to ours one she was. And she she used to say used to say, Oh he had a watch a gold watch and he'd dangle it in front of her. Dangle it for her to play with. You know. But she just bash it out of it and it'd hit his face and of course he went mad then. But he would give her anything then but it were like the doctor said it was too late. The damage had been done. Cos he said What I say. Cos she said to the doctor she said, What's the matter with her? She not told me she's no pins sticking in her. And it she had a right talk to him and he said, Well that's it. He said,with one person? And she said, Yes. She said it's only with him. Oh he said, That's it. Oh me mother used to she was to have a sofa in front of the window. Me mother used to go in and lie down when she'd been to the work . Was it Aunt Aunty Emma that had it a bit rough? his mother. His mother. My mother and dad didn't go to Aunty Emma's wedding. Did they not? No. Because he he want he wanted to be married at nine o'clock in the morning for a start off. Me dad says, Well I can't go then. He said I can't go at nine o'clock I can't. Well poorly man then and I mean he hadn't come round till dinner. He said, No Emma I can't there's no way I can be at a wedding to give you away at nine o'clock. And er oh his mother had been every so nasty she said, Before you would get married she'd gas him. Sam. Oh it's terrible. And er so you see on the wedding er card it had on er, Mr and Mrs Shaw request the pleasure of Mrs Abbott at their daughter's wedding. So I'm told. And when me dad saw it he said, Well that's a lie for a start off. He said I don't want to request her pleasure. He says, She's caused more bother in this house he said than enough. He said, So that's a lie for a start off. So of course our Emma got it and tore it up and threw it in the fire. And then he said er, Well he said I must Aunty Emma didn't she? I'm not an Aunty any more. Well I mean she she hadn't to have one part of the house. It wasn't and hers. Mother had to have a nose in. And there were three Three names on the three names on the . Oh she was a was his mother. She had to go and she had to go and live with them he couldn't get married without. He used to mother had to be going living with them. And all this you see so me dad said, I'm not so bothered about him coming either . house then? Aunty Emma's husband. together. The three of them No three of them three of them . at it. And then er so our Emma said, Oh well if you're not don't want don't want these to come she said alright and she said she all the invitations and threw them all on the fire. So that's it then she said there'll be nobody come. So she said, There'll be there'll be me there'll be Sam Jack Jack Is that the No you wouldn't know Jack. He'd be dead before you came along. And who else? Our Annie. Well wasn't he a that were in army once ? Well that was the four of them. No that weren't that was Fred,brother. Oh. So that were four of them. Said which we . And then she said, Oh well. My mother said, Well you're not going Arthur I'm not going that's it. And she said, We can't get married at nine o'clock in the morning. Oh no he wouldn't have had me in any case. we hadn't to go. We hadn't to go even. Anyway we did get about ten year old we did go. But me mother didn't go. So she says so he said that she said, Oh what about the breakfast. Will you make a wedding breakfast for for the officers there were two officers and Sam and Emma and our Annie and Jack. About six of them. So my mother said, Oh well yes if that's what you want me to be to be a servant. I'll be I'll be I'll do that. And then Sam said, Oh well me mother will have to come. So mother were coming. Then he were having some Aunts come from er his Aunts from er Manchester. So they had to come they were la-de-das. Then er me mother said, Right . Oh well me mother said, If they're all coming right all my family's coming. They'll all come to the tea. So our Alice and Jim they didn't go to the wedding. Our Alice and Jim our Annie were best er were maid of honour so she were there. And Joe didn't go that were four. Who else? There were Sam and Harriet. They didn't go. Our John and Molly they didn't go so that were eight. So my mother had all her family spread for the tea. She said, Yes if that's where you want me, she said, I'll be there in the kitchen. It was awful. Then when they did get married they did get married. Then when they went to the photographers half past ten shut. So I don't know where they did get their photographs taken at the finish. Cos he it well I don't know. Nobody told me that bit. Did Aunty Annie used to wait then? She weren't waiting when I knew her . Yes Aunty oh yes Aunty Emma went to Street. Oh yeah. Must have retired. Oh dear no. Nobody liked him. Nobody liked Sam . Int it funny how our our lads talk about Aunty Emma. Well then our er see our Sam had How do they remember him? pneumonia. And er well they all sat up. Well I didn't because I weren't old enough like I were only young. But they all sat up with him at night and er he said er to our Emma, We're going out on Saturday night going up . And she said, No, she said, I can't go tonight she said. I always remember like I were only little but I remember these things you know. She said oh she said I it mind turn to sat with our Sam. So she so he said, Why should you sat with your Sam she says cos he has a mother and father. She said, You're not stopping. He were boss of her. And er she says, Well, she says, If the others have stopped it's my turn. He says, No turn about it. Tell them you're not stopping. But she didn't. Whatever he whatever he said was law. He was the boss. And cos Shouldn't be any bosses who should be No but everybody were all all up against him you see. And our Alice, oh our Alice she hated him. He was so nasty with her. Did you get on alright? And our Sam. Well there again you see were only young and she'd be alright with him I suppose. Loved children though mum didn't she? Oh our Emma did yeah. I mean when our lads were missing we always knew where to go. Of course. When she got married in a red wedding dress well oh dear me. Married in red you say wish you were dead our Annie says. By gum she she had some trouble on him not half. She were ever so good to the lads though. You'd and all that. Do his And then when he got a bit more money we thought he were too big for his shoes. He'd a lot going and. And then when he took he wheeled about in a wheelchair he'd say,I want to go to army Emma . And she'd wheel him from from their house right up to the station. You know where station is? Right up there and wheel him back and our Annie'd say, Yeah and I'd wheel him as well. Wheel him and let him all over her . Oh no none of them liked him. Sad really. She always had kettle on but our Emma were alright. No matter what time you walked in mum, she'd always kettle hadn't she? Oh our Emma were alright. Ooh aye. You see he was a You were just a baby. fireman and yet he wouldn't he daren't go to sleep with the light off. But brave enough to go and fight fires and but he wouldn't stop in with himself. Or he'd he'd have to have light on all the all night. Aunty Emma wasn't she? Oh yes. Our David always remembers his teas and everything and that . I were only saying to a lady this morning about ee aye our Emma used to come to Leyland with a a wad of ten shilling notes new and we'd go to er Southport wouldn't we? When they come to their holidays you know. She'd bring me dad for his holi holiday. Southport? Mm. And we used to go on Lord Street. Yes. We used to go on Lord Street and he used to be where they sold luscious cakes. And she'd say er I went there yeah. And she'd say er, Now come on let's go let's go. Yeah we all went to Southport as children. Yeah I remember. She said, Let's on in she said and er I know Where were we then? Were we at Newcastle? No. Newcastle under Lyme. I think you must have been. Yeah. Well we were at hol at holidays at their house. And children of course we Yeah well that's because And er she'd say, Now come on never mind pressuring Ernest to do any cakes let's go in . And we'd go in and then I'd say to her, Now I'll pay. No you're not paying baby. I'll pay. And she used to love taking a new ten shilling note out of and I've saved this for holiday. And of course we never took anything off her like for She were a kind person. for keeping because. Well we did a little bit because but I said, No I don't want anything Emma. She said, Listen I'm giving a little bit Peggy because, she said, I couldn't go away if I couldn't come to you. She said, And I'll give you a little bit, she said, you must have it or I won't come. So she did give but she would pay for wherever we went in a cafe. With this new note you know. I am not of that now. Oh no. I mean that's all taken away. And if you give somebody a pound coin they think your giving you two P. She were kind though weren't she Aunty Emma? Oh aye. I mean we used to go about three times four times didn't we and we oh I bet every time we went she gave him a twenty packet of number ten. Me a twenty packet of number ten. Cigarettes you know. She encouraged them to smoke and then she'd say be smoking. Ee mum if you'd have seen them cigarettes. all them cigarettes that were in that Uncle George Yeah and as well the stuff I have never seen so much stuff. Toothpastes and all sorts. Don't know what she had toothpastes for cos she'd false teeth. Well all the cigarettes but they weren't just number tens there was Benson and Hedge weren't there and all sorts. Of cigarettes piles . We went out somewhere and when we come back they were gone. They were gone weren't they? Yeah. I says to them Well what I couldn't understand was It's all them cigarettes though. was there? Emma. Oh well I think I smoked at the time. Well John yeah and our Sam calls John at times He smoked Harriet smoked cigarettes. Aye Harriet smoked cigarettes . At the time. Yeah cos they were all in there. And when I got I says to here, I'm sick of having to out all them cigarettes. I never got No. When we went there were a little carrier bag with only a tiny little carrier bag It were her give it us. What it? Oh Course they did. I thought they left it for us. Oh they left it that I was to give to to Arthur and June. Packet of sugar and and tea and what have you. And I said. Well we're not taking that home you can have it. Didn't I? Yeah. Yeah. And she Aunty Alice Hey d'ya know I never realized till last week give her some crockery or something. do you know how much she had personal money? Who? Aunty Emma. No. How much d'ya think? I'd have no idea. Forty pound. Mm? I said I never realized she'd only that bit. Forty pound it said in her will. That's all she had. Have you heard owt about that No. Oh well. Ee I said I think I'm going to write and say I don't know what you're You know what's happened the Chancellor said I'll deal with it then. Well I think we're lucky they must be keeping it a bit longer for interest of something to all out . have you? No. I wouldn't be having Well not a will for for you know somebody like that. All all her be spent in two minutes. And yet you say you had a letter didn't you again. Yes. About a month ago . So it must be coming around. Well it says everything's being sorted out . will be through before that will be. Yeah. Everything is sorted out now it says. Just waiting for some tax forms . I was saying to your mother this morning I wonder whether Prince Harry will become the Earl. No there's already been somebody be come. There's already somebody come. Oh is there somebody? Oh aye. There's a has he has he a son? Aye he's a son. Oh he has a son. Yeah. I thought he'd just a few girls. No no he must have. No he had a son cos he said on teletext that er somebody be come I think it's the twenty eighth Earl of Spencer or twentieth or something like that. Oh Yeah. Well after all Yeah. D'ya want to pick a up? No thanks nan. Sure? What? What? I would hate to be in the royal family. Hate to be in the royal family? Mhm. Well they they've got no privacy at all. Well nobody has privacy who's in public lives . I mean who erm who wants to watch their mum grieving over the dad? D'ya know what I mean? Yeah. It's ridiculous. Well she must have thought a lot of I mean who wants to get a paper and see on the front of the paper a girl or or Lady Diana crying over her father. D'ya know what I mean? It's a pity they've got nothing else better to do. I was fuming me. I was fuming. I would tell them all where to go. If I had flipping cameras round me all the time I'd tell them where to go. Cos I wouldn't I would hate it they've got no privacy . Well well she did when she was first married didn't she? Mm. And Charles . And yet soon as he died they were all there. And yet Aunty Julie Aunty Julie tell Mary and she had the audacity ooh, to say to me she says, What are you doing here? I said to her I have every right to be here he's my father. And I used to see my dad all the time. One minute you'd have been saying, Yeah you can have this hand . It's been like that dad this past fortnight. You'll be saying to him, D'ya have to have this on. I never say that. Yes you do. Now they'll feel better. I'm just doing anything I'm just doing a pattern. Started off as a flower. What? It started off as a flower. It's just turning into a pattern. You when you go back? What will happen when I go back? Eight till two. Eight till two. Oh that's not too bad is it? No. We've got bread in. Aye that's true . so all's we really need is cigarettes . Yes. In fact there's a on Lane. We just Yeah there is. to your mother's really that's all. You only need to carry the fags and milk. Aha. You what Angela? . What's she saying? Your remote control? . I don't know, where's he put it. . What remote control? Where've you put it? You mean your video one? It's there. . There. Where? .. Yeah. What's funny? What you doing? I'm not doing a thing. You're doing it. What you laughing at then? . You're waiting for what? What you waiting for ? Why don't you put a deck chair out there ? . Ooh . What? You nearly got that all down your back. Why don't you put a deck chair there? No. Better than sitting on the . No I'm okay. You nearly ripped me head off earlier. penknife. Ow. sorry. I thought it was a loose one. I forgot to leave me penknife so she ripped me head off. Will you stop it . Ah. ? You what? chairs. Oh I don't know now. that there. . No it's not. It is. Will you stop it. Eh? Will you put it away. What? Don't pull that. Why not will your head fall off? It might. Hello . Mm. Mind you I ain't . Well actually I was sorely tempted to put back. it only happens since we put clocks forward. The day we put the clocks forward it's done nowt but rained. Yeah. come back where they come from . You can't lie on that, that's granddad's coat. . It is now. . It's alright, I don't smell. I don't smell you know. Mm . Okay?. Get lost. . What are you doing?. . rip the heads off the daffodils. . She had a go at me for pulling out a You know you Just er the other week we walked from where was it? What? . and we were walking along and there's all these daffodils so I went and picked one and I give it to her. Thing to do you know . Yeah. And she says, I don't want that. That was a romantic gesture. Thank you. So I chucked it in the Tyne. And then we walked on a little bit further and there was big clumps of them everywhere they was. So I just went up, big handful, pulled 'em out, give them to her. She says, You rotten sod they were living they were. She said, how would you like it if I come along and ripped your head off. Mm. What you doing with granddad's mac? . Ee. . up there a few times with . Oh aye. I don't think they're every twelve minutes there hasn't gone an eighteen up yet . One day when we get that shed away in the back of there. Mum will you sit down for five minutes. Aye? walking around. I'm always like thi Get a chair and sit down. Aren't I love? Enjoying a healthy . I'm looking o . You're your job Richard?mower cut the grass. Cut the grass Angela. No. Get off. No what? No. It's empty. Empty? Yeah. Oh. on it? No. Probably come on the eighteen.. There's an eighteen coming up anyway. By 'eck you've gone quiet. Eh? You've gone quiet. Who? You. . That's an eighteen. No just a woman on with a white hat. No. Just a woman on with a white hat. Oh. Can I Road. Eh? They could be down Road. No they said they were going down town for some Krona. To . that er . Eh? Is that wood or is it ? Where? There. That there? Yeah. Dad's it's off that . Oh that erm two big plants are coming on aren't they? Yeah. Well there won't be another bus up yet will there? Did you see the eighteen across there? Where? In them houses. No. No I heard it. Oh. They must've missed that one. They're usually in by now. . You said get one of them chairs. Where does grandma keep the chairs now, in the outside cupboard? . Dunno . It's gonna rain in a minute. . table here love. Look. Eh?. table. . Ow ow. Mum. if you break her arm. He's hurting me. I'm not. all week. Get off. . . Eh? Dad? What? Can I? No. . You started it. I didn't, he did. Will you let go. Don't start something you're not prepared to take back. No. No no. You hurt her didn't you. No. Mm? have a stitch. No. Mum help. No. Help mum. Mum help. Richard. Ow.. She dared me. for yourself now. Who? I'm saying she can sit there and feel silly for herself now. Who's side are you on. . Mm do you know, we're gonna get wet. Oh don't be awful. Mum tell 'em. They're all ganging up on us. All ganging up on us. . You're picking on me. Ah. Have you got that body spray on? Yeah. Smelly. Mm it's awful. Ooh. oh quick.. . Hey pick that cup up. No. Five fifty from Avenue down at bottom. Or five eighteen. Well the five eighteen goes to a side street Angela? five eighteen Yeah. Oh well. . . Eh? . Just this morning. . . I don't know whether it's this weekend No I got some other . One eighty four for the two payments. Angela. What now? No you're alright, they give you bags. Are you sure? Yeah. Cos I want five pounds. Yes they give you bags. Oh it doesn't matter. Angela? What you want? You. Oh I see . What do we want special salad for? Oh. What what er Angela hang on a minute. to mind them on Wednesday . How much is how much is . How much do you how much do you want? Well normally I get five pounds. Well how much is ten pounds. So five pound a pound at forty six at ninety two a pound So that's A pound a pound. Well say a pound a pound. A pound a pound. So that's ten pounds, well you'll have enough money there won't you? Yeah. Yeah.. You'll have to carry a basket darling . Yeah you'll have some change. You'll have some change cos it's Will erm Now your mother wants hers as well so you'll have to get a basket. You give your lass the money. You want ten pounds your mother wants some It's four sixty mum for five pound. Oh ten pound'll then . Yeah. Yeah. Right. Er That's nine pound twenty. That that'll be enough will a pound bus fare won't it? Yeah. Yeah. Cos I haven't got a lot of cash. Eighty P it's not more than eighty P your bus fare is it? two buses or summat I don't know You don't need two buses. Who says two buses, it's not two buses. It's nowt to walk down No well I'm saying I don't know . Have you broke that sink? . Have you broke that What about my bus. It's bus B U S, where's your bu where's your bus. she said bus. Well . That's his, smack him. Smack him mum. He's picking me up on my bus again. Speak proper as I do. Anyway go on. Aye you've got your money haven't you. Mhm. You better . You've got your money safe have you? Come on. I was brought up po proper I was. Yeah well so was he. So was I. Go on hit him. Ow. Go on hit him mum. No Metro running. No Metro trains running. Oh heck well you'll have to go on bus. On bus yeah. Don't be picking me up. On the bus. Yes walk. . Trains are running from Newcastle anyway. But they aren't from here. Cos it said they were off between the airport and where was it, Central Told you but would you listen? That was this morning. No you wouldn't. Well . I think I'll write to Krona and say will you send a . Huh? I say I think I'll write to Krona. Saying what. And ask 'em to send a . they won't do that. They will you know. Oh no.. You what? You've got to buy it through their recommended outlets. Well if they don't sell 'em what can you can't buy 'em can you.. Perhaps they've stopped selling . but why? They had er Krona low fat. Yeah. I don't know I don't like that do you? No.. today's date . Eh? Don't forget today's date. No. . . Would have been. They've been chasing Richard all round the grass, all round the lawn . I've noticed I've no money . . Seventy eight today. Cor seventy eight. He must've been dead eighteen years. Was he was he . No we buried him didn't we on August the eleventh. Mm. . But eighteen years, so Auntie 's been dead how long? Nineteen years.. Well I wonder if they're gonna be on tomorrow? Oh 'eck you better find out hadn't you. He's gotta be back on board his ship on Monday. Well they're running buses . He's got the times six o'clock Is it a replacement service. bus re bus replacement. Oh well that'll be alright. Six o'clock it leaves central station his train. Mm He's mad isn't he. All that money to come back again. Yes well it's alright They're mad if they want to do a thing . . . no money. eh he says, then I were transferred to another one, then from another one, to another one. It's surely money for right things. It just annoys me when they're always fagging. I've had a thought. together. When he's coming back only because you said, speaking hypothetical. S say it's January the tenth you've to put that were funny because, January the tenth, April the tenth. And Angela said to me and I your grandad said that, just speaking hypothetically. Well that was only a . Yeah. As an example. Yes but is he coming home at tenth or is he gonna be It is it is still next year isn't it . He'll be on the tenth Yeah. The tenth next year, not this year . . On a Saturday. Cos they could they could do it this year you know. On a Saturday. Well ask him. . We does he mean this year or next ? No no next year. April the tenth. He who did he get it off? The wh he said in fact it's just come in for the programme or something hasn't it. They've just come in for ninety three. Er when he comes back, from this far eastern tour, Yeah? would he like to use our address? For registering. Oh I don't know? did you like that tuna Arthur? I did Eh? Did you like that tuna? I did tell him how much it was I said sixteen pound sixteen pound for Angela . What tuna? I gave you a of tuna and And thirty pound for the registrar . Oh yeah, yes ta. Now whether it will be thirty two pound if they go together maybe only be sixteen. Ah. No. We'll see what says. See what he says Yeah. coming to him and saying to her No yeah no Do you know what you're doing, have you a bag? Yeah right, oh thanks, for you. For me. Well it's not for him personally Oh I see . That's something I don't eat. . I'd rather have salmon me. . He's loves it that much it's been there heaven knows how long. Well because you're not fond of it. Well of course You see she'll eat it but We got er you know the tall tins of pink salmon mum? We haven't had one for a couple have we? Oh One twenty nine it was wasn't it? Mm. No I don't like them anything like that I can't eat. Pilchards, tuna Yeah well,them salads just taste the same. get I love salmon. . Do you know dad's salad. I I could live at it. You for that mum aren't you, salad. I can live of a salad. Now then. I eat a lot of salad. I put on it you know. Oh I don't know you've changed your mind. Where's where's that butter is that know whether it's butter or not. I've put it in the fridge. I mean the things is You mind that being on do you? Eh? Eh? You don't mind that being on, if you've got something to say No. I'll switch it off. No. me tape. What say that's personal. Well it was the way that you said if there's anything you can just . Well we'll try that. I think you've to try it and not know. Well. That's what I think. Yeah leave it for me. When was that Krona at first, I said to dad . He said,it's alright. So I said, well, put it on me bread and don't tell me. Yeah. And he did. And then we liked it so that was for ever more. Now this it says, I can't believe it's not butter. But what it is, heaven only knows. Well Well we'll try it We'll try it and see what it is. Strange isn't it. Oh I don't like to try that. Then we'll see what it is. Aye. like it now. Mm, yeah good, I like it. I'd rather have it on bread I said. Well you'll get it on bread. Hey don't you shout at me. . Yeah mind your eyes'll pop out. .. That's alright love. Yes put it on a biscuit. I wish you'd keep the fridge door closed. Well I'm gonna . No you're not, you have to close the door. . where does butter melt. . look at his face. I don't like that what Well we'll have to see on the bread. I'll have a biscuit as well. Well. we have to try won't we Arthur . Well she bought that in case that wasn't so nice. Pardon. . I can't remember last time I had best butter . Lurpak seventy nine. Must be a long time ago love isn't it since we had best butter. they they make you sick do people. Oh I must have best butter. Well Krona tastes just they can't tell the difference I mean there's nothing In fact if I can't get Krona at Presto and I can't get it at Co-op, I shall write to Kr to Pre to Krona and say I'll have a I'll have a box . Aye you wrote to e you wrote to 'em once before didn't you. So send it me the there's nowhere where you can get it here. She said . I mean we've been very Er I think they've got it at Presto on . Krona. Ah but they're dear Well I'm not bothered about that if you can get it . It can't be much dearer than forty six can it. Oh yes it can be fifty But I know when we went in Co-op the other day, last week were it there was a load So long as we can get it, that's all I'm bothered about. of Krona in because Yeah. we put some up. In fact we got another didn't we and we used it all I'll get a box of Krona.. . Arthur? No one of them one of them . No them things that's open on there. . I don't know . you don't have butter on them. You do. Do you eck. I do. Oh no You can't tell which Here silly. No. Look. Oh aye you put butter on them. Oh no love. Cheese biscuits, no do you eck. . Oh no. No. It's only a little bit, you don't bowl it on. Well erm well Well you do with Krona but not with that . Did you ring this morning? No. Somebody rang mum at half past nine. . at that time.. Somebody rang at half past nine, he was . half past nine this morning. He was . And I was half and half and by the time I you know, to come down to answer it mum, they'd gone. I haven't. I can't think who it was. It wasn't Angela's boss . . It wasn't Angela's boss cos she asked h she went down for you this mor er half past twelve . Flipping 'eck. She had to ring Darlington. Darlington give her phone number of . She had to ring , Yorkshire, they give her the phone number to . Well why didn't she Cos she wanted to ring before going . Doesn't she know 's number? She does now Yeah. cos she's got it, but when she rang he wasn't in. And then he said try it again and she rang and she asked, she said had the cheques come. Well why do they Mm. No. I thought you said she'd to cash it at Barclay. No I said it's to stay in the bank. Three days. Well that shouldn't be when it's his cheque should it. No . It's crossed. No. Cos it's crossed. Yeah. But it doesn't matter anyway cos I've give her some money and I'll give her her other money Mm. I'll give her other money on Wednesday and then I'll leave that in the bank . . No it's it's it's not nice er it's you know it's it's bland. It wo it's it's like . Well put some salt on it . No for me salt. Alright. Hey has he got ? They're not going to pay poll tax? Yes they are.. Mm. Do they? Yes. Really.. when Angela's form, I mentioned that and the woman says if you're in any kind of forces, you are exempt. When I went in with Angela's form Well they were because don't you remember one of the and forces. armies er one of the regiments er they took them to court. Aren't they? for not paying. I remember summat about it, yes. If if they're land based if you're land based. He's not land based you see all the time I think it's if you're land based. . . that lad pays it. He pays it. He does. British Marine. Yes he pays poll tax. . Yeah. to me. butter for tea. Er what am I doing, yes I want Well you want a cup of tea coming . now what you doing?to that corner. have you er have you er that's what she said. yet. . Well . . . Well you can. Well you don't know darling, you might . No. Well you wouldn't have thought comes out the Navy he will have to pay then. Oh yeah. You'll have to go and see about it then. Whatever happens er poll tax is abolished after . We've got to go in Monday about our rent. . Yeah it says you have been assessed twenty two forty seven Mm. And they've got eighteen fourteen. go off now. I don't know how they can make mistakes like that they send you a letter one minute and then on your rent book's different. see what that's like. We've got one of them. What? Oh yeah? Good aren't they? Yes. What. Separator and beater. Separator and beater Oh donkeys years. use it . Blackpool. Eh? at Blackpool. got this as well Did you get a Thirty pounds. Did you get erm one of them? No. What was it like what's yours like then? With a lid on. Wh with a lid on. Oh ours hasn't got a lid on. Er it's er I don't I microwave goes on the the Oh no this is for microwave. Oh no it's for the Oh yeah microwave. And it's a three one. And it's plastic but it cleans ever so easy other one. microwave. I don't use t'other one now. Haven't you got one for haven't you got one for the gonna give it you for microwaving if you wanted it. I d Oh yeah I'll have one. Well do you want that one there cos there's only two of you, we've a two one. microwave. What's that. mam doesn't use that. microwave. No. You'll use it won't you, cos he uses the microwave a lot. He uses the microwave practically for everything. in water. Eh? you're got to stand it in a dish in water. Yeah. And you've got to prick your eggs. Aye prick your eggs You've got to prick your eggs and you've got to stand it in a dish of water.. . Eh? He says he'll have it mum. . . . . How much water have you to use? Eh? How much water he says have you to use? What did you say? How much water have you have you to use? Cos we have these pyrex dishes, you can put it in one of them. Well you just you know . Put it in water Hey that thing you did the other day, did you did you put it What? When you did it in the microwave the other day? No I did them in er We did them in the Wait a minute. glass. Yeah but without water? No . You can't prick your egg though till it's all cooked can you? No oh yes. Boom stuff flies all over. Did you not put any water in at all? No there was no water in at all. You just stood it Well you could stand it like it it is then. Yes. . He says how long do you leave it dad? Er no more than three er a maximum of three minutes. You've to . You've to watch it for a maximum of three minutes you dad says. four of us. Now then, you see, all these things in this carrier, they've no business to be in. You always say . Eh? All them things in there that's no business to be in that carrier. And they always say I'm nattering. I don't car who's money it is. There's no reason never be without any money. but we're not are we love . all the same. Any fool can spend money . I don't mind I told Arthur tell us. And we'll lend you some but I'm never without money. You cannot be without money. post office this morning you know. silly. Cos e the other day I left her forty pound dad. That was like for her ticket as well. See he ticket was twenty four pounds. And then with her not getting any money, you know. They haven't stopped her any national insurance stamp. Dad they haven't stopped her any national insurance stamp. No not this time. How much did you say it was gonna be mum? Nine pound twenty. Is that right. Eight pound twenty It's gone down then. Well that's alright . They dropped it down again to forty one. What? Look. Forty six on mine, dropped it down. Oh well that's better still. Yeah that's better still. You see, you'll have to get that bus darling to get down there. forty one. Ee and last week when he were 'ere we paid forty six a packet didn't we ? One pound eighty change. I'll have to get some more on Wednesday if it's forty one. . That's eighty two. You know what I did though don't you? . Left my bus pass in me jacket pocket. them's careless things you'll always want your bus packet. . I don't know what you put it in somebody else's pocket for, you've got pockets of your own. Four pound twenty. Cos them pockets in that. I mean what would happened train to London. Aye. Aye. Oh yes. . Oh they've moved it up aye. You know the one outside Ask him now he's here. Yes . Dad and I have been talking. Mm. And say no if you don't want. You're sure about your poll tax aren't you. yeah because he's land based. Ah that's it. That's what he said. the marines definitely do pay. We're not interfering Richard with anything you do. It's only and suggestions. We're not interfering, we don't care what you do, you do what you want, but we think of things where very often you wouldn't. So that's all we we do and and interfering cos we're not. Right now when you come back from this far east trip, would you like to have this as your address? What as in I'm not with you. Well yet. No I will tell you this first Er when you put the banns in, you've to put yours in Oh I've told him. You've told him about this Mm. have you. Nearest to his home address. You mean because they live in a different county. What . Hertfordshire. Hertfordshire is it, oh right well . Er well we thought that You're going to have to go down there aren't you? And you're going to have to be there during the week. Because they won't open on Saturdays. So what we thought was, if you use this as your address, you can go together South Shields. Yeah together and I'm wondering whether we could put them in together if we wanted a sixteen . But er think about er and er make your mind up. Because er In other words he can give this as his address. He can give this as his address . Yes. Er but would would I have to be r actually registered here? Er Well you would be registered here then wouldn't you. This i this will be your This will be your address and you'll officially be married from this address. . Doesn't make any difference. This will be the address that they'll I mean what I what I'm saying is, when you go in to put your banns in, Mm. Erm do you have to be registered say with the council at that address? Oh no. No. Erm no you don't have to be registered with the council. Er but we shall er we shall say, this is your home address because we shall have to tell the council, but er you're not here, you're at Steve's. Mm. . It won't make any difference to our er rebate. You see it's like when . You see when when mother died, before we were married. Well no home you see, so I got Well you used my address didn't you? No you used our address. I yes I did the same thing . Well we didn't think about now. We said using their address, it wouldn't look very nice, both of you. Yeah. the same address. bother about things like that but they do. But we didn't think about it because it was so Well I was so excited . So we had to put our address. You see. So we never thought about even though it wasn't there mind. . . Yes I know I used me mam and dad's . Aye yeah that's right . But as as I say there's no reason why Anyhow, think about it but you know, I mean, plenty of time. Er er you don't That's summat else we've had to think about not being nasty are we or anything, but as soon as you get married, your marriage certificate'll have to go for housing. Because say you're living with us, that does affect us. Yeah it will. Because it did remember when Michael was at Well no No only if you turn round and say that we're giving you board. That is the only way it'll affect you. Yeah. If you turn round and say, well you know you're just putting us up until they get a place but they're not giving us any money, they c they won't take anything off you. Yeah but they do. They did did it with Michael. They did did did it with Michael. Did it with Michael. The rent went up to thirty pounds a week. You see family. You see we were on income support you see . But she's family as well you see, so she becomes an independent, once she's married, she becomes an independent then they're e they expect you to when you're on income support. I mean we're not being nasty But we can until we get a house, we can we can live with you can't we? Oh yes. Because I mean Although they might ask where you're living mightn't they. Yes but It's alright No. It won't make any difference. Yeah but I mean, even then they're not going to live with you be nothing You can't help that. Naturally it goes up. If the changing forms and It's like Angela, by time they sort it out being on income support,the Poll Tax married . Cos I mean to say, even if it is your father No been a lot easier last time. . I know. Well you don't already agreed and there were two beds there. Oh you've knocked me off now. and when they're married they're married I'm going. . Well they you won't be paying it. So it doesn't make any difference. Naturally they're not gonna come and . When we got married we didn't go in another house. But I used to pay a half to every bill. Because there was there was dad and me and there was my mother and dad. So we used to pay half to everything. And now er you're like getting more than me so I so I want er I want so much more rent and we used to pay half. And I used to pay half of the gas bills, half of the electric bill. And half to everything. And . Just half to all the bills. I paid. Then when Arthur came along, I said to me mother now there's a baby now, what now. Then . And even when me mother died, me dad still paid his half. So that you have your they're not so daft as to know that two people who are going to come and live even if Richard's away half the time. You you you still . And then listen . When you've the the night you're mar the night You're gonna you're gonna be married, you can stay here. Because about going to that place wherever you've decided to have it. . If Richard's here he can go with you. we're gonna be getting all his marbles getting ready for going to the church. . . Wherever he is wherever he is. Well who's gonna take it then Angela, your grandad can't take it. You've got to go. There'll be plenty of people here who can get it.. You can't you can't rely on anybody. There'd be a blooming puncture. We're gonna have a we're gonna have a a thing that takes us to wherever you're having call a taxi. On our we'll ring our own taxi up if there's a problem with the and we'll get that there. So that it's done. Cos grandad'll be all worked up and and and he's gonna be the best man anyway. Well there you are, you can't go on like and have folk coming might not decide they're not coming. it doesn't matter who's there and who isn't there. As long as you and Angela's there and her dad's there and grandad's there. And it doesn't matter about anybody else, because the wedding'll take place and grandad has to sign the register, dad has to sign the register and the mother can sign and that's all that matters . you can't even re re rely on anybody. you'd have been relying on to come and and collect you Newcastle yesterday, and he ain't got a car. No you can't rely on anybody Well he hasn't got one then. He's using it. Well he hasn't No. And if the lad said he couldn't borrow it. I wouldn't want to No and I wouldn't wa I wouldn't depend on it. If you depend on erm people or taxis, if they had a breakdown, well they'd send another one. . Don't they. I know . the Metro's running. Well they was they were running this morning weren't they. Aye they were. Yeah well they gave it out when we were passing bus when we went down to You know when we went downtown We were running late. There'll be a bus on though. There's a replacement service on. the buses Newcastle in a bus. Well it'll take 'em to the station. replacement service. Ere, which one goes to Newcastle ? Erm . But you don't know what time the Metro replacement is? What time is the Metro. It'll run the same time as the Metro. You see that thing on business to Cos it goes direct from station Newcastle one time Ten past six. Ten past six. ten past six cake So if I was you Richard I wouldn't leave it till last minute, I a bit sooner in case the buses are not running . We're taking the cake. We'll ring our own taxi firm and we'll ask for a . she well then you'll have to carry the mattress downstairs. You've slept on a mattress before today, you've slept on a couch before today. So th I mean, I , when you were here, Street, there were David and Michael in the living room weren't there. David and Michael in the living room, we were in our . in our living room. In the living room. And and Ike was in the our bedroom. We were in our bed-set our bed- settee in the sitting room. Eh? . You were in that little bedroom, you went up them steps . Oh you were in that little office Oh yeah. You were in there. You in there. Barbara, dad, me and Angela were in the sitting room. The children And that weren't for a day, for a night, it were for weeks and weeks on end. So we had our in the morning. Eh? . Course you are . You were three. . . Eighteen months Angela. . And she were in that bedroom with us,the there were t there were dad, me, Barbara and Angela. In in the sitting room. And there were you in the next bedroom, you and Arthur. And was Uncle Ike, in our bedroom. And then in the in the living room where we ate and everything Oh on the camp-bed were er were er and and and there were three on . Well we got by you're not gonna tell me we can't get by w . Goodness me getting by if we want to. sleep and as I say, I Auntie Mary coming. that's up to her. And if she says no, well then there's there's two beds upstairs. . you've got to know these things no good well they might . They've got to be asked. And as far as we're concerned the boy can come and stay. Well I asked Richard about and he said, No problem. Well it is absolutely ridiculous for her to come and bring all that on a train when . Yes it's absolutely ridiculous for you to bring, but you're not running the car. And they might not want to do it. They might not want to do it . You can't rely on people. I can't see Auntie saying no, but I don't think . So . I mean it's alright I mean she'd have to we've gone through it, we've had a car and we know. And if you take every chance of Right. putting somebody else out, you don't like to . It'll take all the for them to come from where they're coming from . Yeah but he'll have to bring somebody ov else over they're all coming to There you are . I know it's only a quarter of an hour away but if you have a breakdown, and Auntie Mary and she'll get all worked up. They'll get all worked up because they're supposed to be fetching her. There's all not somebody else. . I mean I know we've had a car and we know. And we've been all over the place haven't we Arthur . And then when it's been our turn to come, we broke down. I I won't forget . I gave them the afternoon and she said, Oh that was lovely Mrs . And then she came to me and she said,take four of us away and I just said, No I'm sorry he won't. And she said, Oh. Well weeks went by and then a a a few weeks after she came to me and she said,. He . spoke lovely and what we he said was true. And kind that she said, I was very disgusted, she said, with you, afterwards. And I said, Why what have I done. She said, well, she said, I asked you to take four people home and you said, No I'm sorry. She said, and I didn't expect you to say that. So I said, well did you stop to kn know we are fourteen miles. We've to go back fourteen miles, we've come fourteen and we've to go back fourteen miles. And it took all this time to get here. And we got here safe and we was thankful for that. And then we wer found out instead of sitting and listening we had to do the service. So I said, we done all that, and then we'd to go back fourteen miles. isn't always er moaning, doesn't mean to say there's nothing wrong with him. I said, I was thankful that he got here safe and I can't drive. And I was thankful that he was coming back alright. See. Wait a minute while I finish. And I said er but I'm not unkind at all. I said, it hurt the captain because we've been used to you know, ferrying everybody about, and I said, don't d say that people are unkind because they they're not taking you and carrying you about. Oh she says, well I'm sorry Mr , I never thought about it like that, you see. It's the easiest thing in the world you see as she says Well I just to well he'd done it before And I said to them, Oh captain'll take you. And then she said, when you said, well you wo they won't, I said, everyone knows because she said, by the time we has taken those people home, it would have been dark. I said and and captain can't drive in the dark. So what we would have been I mean it weren't just at the bottom of the street. And she said, oh well I am sorry Mrs , she said, I never thought about that. She said, it is the easiest thing in the world, she said, to just say, Oh well they'll take you. And when you think about it, it is. Because you're using Well your dad wouldn't mind. Bertie might, he might say, Well Yeah I mean I I did say I'm not sure. No. You know it's I I will ask. . Well you know what they say, you don't get anywhere unless you ask. Well I know that but on the other hand, we've never been ones for relying on other people. Like what Well they eh? these the stuff not coming I know, it's a damn nuisance though, there's quite a low in't it?, I mean how long did it take that washer a week, if that was under and that bit in there from the album is exactly the same equipment yeah I know, actually if it'd been different equipment I would have cancelled it and said oh sod it, but it's not, it's same equipment, so you might as well wait for it yeah, but if it hasn't come by next Tuesday Arthur you're not re-ordering, forget about it love well I'm not bothered love because we'll have the cash, we'll go and buy he said all you need is your amplifier and that didn't he? I don't think your equipments gonna come anyway No, but she said like, she said it could come today cos she says they deliver I says is there no way I said you can give me a number I said that I could get in contact, she said no, she said were're not allowed to do that no I don't want one Arthur , you going down there aren't you, no harm in down where? there weren't no more wrappers, oh aye, no she says I'm sorry she says we're not allowed to do that I need to pop that in she says er oh she says don't wait in, I says it's alright don't wait in, but I said if there's nobody in I said they don't get in did you say we're in a commune door? mm she said but isn't there a letter box outside no just for somebody to drop a card no you know, I said no, oh she said that's strange you couldn't do that everybody else would be picking your mail, if there was a letter box there, mail box no each individual box well there isn't each individual flat should have a box outside I've I've said this before mm but there isn't and then again Arthur they get vandalized mm you could have a filling that mail or, or, or something, and, and it, it'd just get vandalized around here won't it? mm I wouldn't trust anybody I was talking to that lady, paper shop you know where you used to wait for Les mm you know when Les, oh she says there's been about half a dozen people at that paint shop, sends chops and changes she said she said, she said I haven't lived there for three and a half years has she not? no, she says er I'm in a bungalow now mm she says you move from up here, didn't ya?, she says I see you up here, but, I said yeah at the time what she doing up there? she's got a bungalow up there oh she says, I'm on about the lady with the dark hair yeah, I know who you mean little mm and she do, she said she decided that, you know it was a bit, well I never change me post office, said I've had it for all these years but she said it was a lovely bungalow and she says er what did she not take you to have a look? no fair enough and er I only have to mention the time though, oh dear oh all should seen her face mm, I can imagine mm oh faces do as soon as you mention this place she says she's got a beautiful place I said yeah, but look how many stairs, I said I just couldn't climb the stairs, she said oh that's it, she says, but er, she says knowing you like I've always well she says and your husband, she even described you, she says I, I'd thought you'd move into a better area than that. Aye, well, there you are Oh dear, I told them at one point why we did, and I've had it oh you've got I have had it mentioned to me like, she says,, she said they're alright you know to what? these bungalows, okay she said they're not massive did she have one of them yeah oh she said they're not massive well no not massive she said but how many of you, she said you've a daughter ain't ya or summat, I said at the minute, she gets married next April, by heck she said doesn't time fly she says, I remember her coming and and from the paper shop aye, well she used to have a paper round I says well yeah, I says well she's twenty now, she says oh she's that old now, I said yes, gets married next April, and you know what she said what? she said you want to think about it she says okay they're not massive she says, but they're cosy and comfortable. I suppose one of them on would be alright really mm, you can't get on, in, a bungalow can ya? well you don't know it just depends what they offer ya don't know whether they'd give you one , huh accordingly to that woman well you don't have to go where you give you one if you're under sixty accordingly to that woman no it's the oh no and your mother's I mean just cos I want I, just, just cos you want out of here, I'm not gonna accept any old place why, didn't say you were bored, your mother told you to think again didn't she? what about a bungalow? yeah yeah can you have a satellite dish on a bungalow, are you allowed by Council? yeah, of course you can , can have satellite dishes with bungalows on, or bungalows with satellite dishes on oh I wished I which ever way round you want it I'm fed up with waiting but out of town, it's doing me no good all the way round there right round here some, there's a home, she'd have to take it would she? the poll tax one no it's not yes it is that's the menu for the I mean orderly yes, but the old tax ones underneath oh well it's underneath your book, that's why she forgot to take it, she wouldn't see it so that's on Saturday at three? yeah it's gorgeous out there, do you know it's Easter weekend, next weekend, the first,the papers up, cos I didn't really know when it was, it's Easter Sunday, a week this Sunday yeah I know Bank Holiday Monday on Monday yeah so if your stuff doesn't come next week you certainly won't be getting it on the following Monday no, but I could get it on the Tuesday, she said if you hadn't got it by the Tuesday, to let us know on the Wednesday aye, next week mm but I'm on about the Tuesday after, the Monday after is Easter Monday no, this coming Monday is Easter Monday it's not yes it is it's not, it's the o seventeenth no, and er, it's not the seventeenth this Monday coming well what is it this Monday coming? thirteenth well then it's Easter Monday it's not Easter Monday until the twentieth, it's on the windows I dunno Easter Sunday's on the nineteenth oh well they'll know then Easter Sunday's on the nineteenth I'm quite sure so if it didn't come on the Monday it could come on the Tuesday, by next week have you rang the bank? no no I'm not bothering well if you can just put me mind at rest now and if they'd say no I wouldn't worry so much then you don't need to worry well she ain't bothered you bothering you well you ain't gotta go out your way I don't need to go out me way he says if you just say has the money gone in, he'll tell you, yeah, and she gives you your bank account number I'm not really bothered it's Wednesday now, when, when did we go up Monday? mm well it's Wednesday now look, just even to know if I've got something there That's what I want So you can't go to your mum's then till they've rang no, not really Hello, should you have finish at two o'clock? Yes, weren't suppose to, suppose to finish till three hello there, where you been? work been to work looking like that stop winding her up, ooh have you been working hard? no no are the residents in yet? no, tomorrow why not? ah cos basically they've nothing to do oh and you say oh why grumble when you get paid for it and you say take that tape recorder to work, huh, I wouldn't dare you've er why is the language being blue it's not much the language it's the conversations oh you forgot to take that poll tax form to your boss I know you'll have to take it tomorrow he's not there It's a right nice sunny day and now you say have your cocoa well I've had mine now it's as warm as house out there you wanna see this one with location ski jacket on, I'm expecting snow any minute I don't care, your the only with an inside pocket is that yeah I put them out I dunno where I put me cigarettes and that, some of me shell suits have got new zips on have you had your dinner? oh out me padded jacket yeah oh looks don't you feed yourself in your flat? no put yourself pan of stew on, then you can dip in it now and then and don't take all that loaf cos that's all that ooh, my stomachs speaking I told you before to get some mince and put potatoes in and that, see afford, can't afford at the minute, I was just saying to dad Bri's gonna get us some shopping on his cheque book, I tell you, did I tell you about his embarrassing moment? no, what were that? yeah yeah he did at the Co-Op at the Co-Op oh yeah, aye tell you did I?, oh, he went round the Co-Op right yeah did all his shopping, bags and bags of shopping only had sixty odd quid, used his credit card to put it through, well now it all comes up, all the stuff comes up onto on display now about the credit, it goes straight through to their account see if there's money there yeah and it refused it, and it should, the woman didn't obviously didn't know what to do, she was as embarrassed as had to get the manager so by this time Brian has packed all his bags up the manager came along and says oh I don't know about it, it seems er some reason I'm glad I weren't there some reason it hasn't accepted it and Brian says it's probably cos me wages haven't gone in yet, the bank they can't be empty, so he's hoping to get that by the time they took it out he's money at the end, it's embarrassing enough, so, he's telling me, so they had to take the stuff off him ee, I would of died me cos it was all fresh cos he was gonna get meat tomorrow and the following day, so I says to him I says well why didn't you use your cheque book?, he says oh I never thought of that he says, cos it takes a few days to get it, he don't know with a cheque book yeah so he went back on the night time, got the bags how embarrassing, he did it you went in no oh I'd of died if I was in there so he was gonna do the same for me, do a bit of shopping well I said you'll get it like give you the money, so he says well I was gonna do the same but I said the only thing is when we go to the cash desk er, I said I'm gonna leave you, I said I'm not standing there don't you get paid this week? erm, I wished I did mum I tell ya, get paid next week and it's Easter I thought you were going up nan I can't can I, I'm waiting for a phone can't call waiting for a phone call cos me money hasn't gone in the bank chasing money around that's more important we're not getting it till end of month I never paid my bills for the last month not paying it till black one comes it depends, just paid electric and gas had got a deal oh aye I'm telling you and I'm telling you, not him, he's having now't say or so be tea on him, you want to stand up for yourself you, it's time you opened your mouth to our Michael, don't be afraid of him what, I never see him when he, if he does come see, he don't see him it's about time you opened your mouth it's better be calm I don't care all this I mean he's, he's got nothing now, he's right down to nothing oh I mean all the time he's been back down there and not telling me he hasn't had any cars aye of course he would of had cars why has got money huh , I've had enough with would of mind if he'd left that mini could of drove round in the mini mm rather than I tell ya cos this thing, this thing we're in now what's it like? I mean really honestly it jerks er that's all it does I noticed it the other day when you were round then I mean he came for a flying visit and he went back didn't he? he came for a flying visit and went back when I visit him a second time he didn't turn up at all send one of his lackeys popped up in the week he says, look er, he says, cos I for somebody he said if I could, if he knew somebody that could take me down he says I would leave the mini for ya mm, mm I, I said I know I would of had the mini for nothing well that was an old banger weren't it?, she always, she always gives me the little bags on the carpet, aye bags what'd ya mean there's no money she's got money all them bills we've just paid God television license is due end of month oh well you Karen? television eighty pounds, it's gone up as well what's all your rings on the table for mum? cos I took them off to peel some potatoes one of them is what you and Karen bought oh it's me shh you're the one I bought off, that other ones the one I bought off Michael that says, she say you told him what buying the ring ring, oh yeah I know yeah he took it off her finger yeah Karen I need some money she got loads, here mother they wouldn't would they?, they'd have to have gold to yours aye I know twenty seven and grey hairs I'm not surprised ma told ya years ago to get something in the bank, years ago, have to listen to me when you get on your feet you can't beat having a bob or two in the bank can ya? if, is the word you're looking for, not when I mean you, you even get interest just, if you've only a bit in at least ten haven't ya? well er I've got a tenner in the bank that counts you'll get interest on that, if it stay there, stay there, no I'll have about ten pound, one pence now two years ago we, we were gonna put more in weren't we?, nearly two years ago mm it will be I refuse to take it out because it just closes it down again and I thought I'm not touching it when did we put it in eighty nine? mm, something like that that's three years this year for a start we put fifteen pound in our post office in an investment account and forgot all about it it's still there and it's still there, that were three years ago, should be a little bit of interest on that must be I put fiver in, that must be four year ago oh yeah, I put seven quid in do you not save any money? no, I she keeps it er, she stashes it in a hiding place in our room under the mattress yeah, but what if it's in the bank you see you get interest she's daft well be honest she's always into it, either somebody wants to borrow it, her mam will borrow some to you no, er, er, it hasn't actually he's borrowed off Karen I owe her now't, well well you owe me twenty five quid alright, alright no, sorry, thirty five quid you keep adding it up no I don't I tell you it's interest it keeps going up charging interest for you, for you I've been round to bin place and back well who took the me oh oh aye it's summer out there, it's nice and warm go and get me money, go and pay me bills , got now't left, eighty quid for just gas and electric this morning cold oh aye I wear my padded jacket to me I don't care red hot out there, it was this is the only one for just fancy taking Penny in the west park for a while, I don't did you take them types back? no not yet not that good it's in thingy, I didn't want I was just checking and the I thought it was good yeah Oscar, oh it's a comedy you know yeah I know aye that's exactly what he was on about, getting interviewed on that, I mean I've see the trailer on it, they were showing them scenes, he's sick of being typecasted as a hard macho man in films, he wants to do something different family films not but to me it was, it was boring aye that was cos you're used to seeing no, I mean I like a man yeah cos he's a hard guy, he's a hard guy he still a hard man in he's still, I said it's a serious you didn't watch it I didn't watch it I thought it was good me, I enjoyed it, I thought it was funny you've gotta, you know what I mean? have you watched it? no, not yet, I've seen the beginning where he set up the and that oh did you watch all the ? no I haven't watched I've just eh? what made you watch Oscar? cos time was going on and I thought well just watch that, I knew you wanted it taped and I thought time were going on Maria and we never finished watching that did we? that was a good film that I mean I can't stand Rik what's his surname Maio? Rik Maio Rik Maio, I can't stand him like, I enjoyed it, I thought it was a good film I haven't watched it yet still on the probably not your cup of tea mum, it's daft humour, he's funny He's smashing the fridge ah! the fridge! the dragon lady! the three headed dragon he's waiting for that he's got twenty four he has I thought he was in fifties I did twenty four when I first saw him I thought he was in his fifties thirty eight in the paper thirty eight I know it was in the paper twenty four and a half inch, has it, have you got a tape measure? no well that's two foot in it? that's on the slack out, I mean when he's got it all pumped up you know it must be just standing there and his arms out here suburban commander and he's supposed to be from another planet or something or other yeah, summat like that I saw a trailer of it when I came, I thought he must of come your dad likes it cos he likes him he watched that a few good films advertised on one of those tapes, can't remember what tape it was, I'm not sure if it was time scape or something or other no it wasn't that one, there was a few I can stomach anything except that oh, er, Lost In Time that's it Rhinestone aye, that looks good now I must say sometimes they come back yeah some are timid, some are frightening eh? I'll have to seen that Lost In, Lost In Time and then after last night I completely forgot last night? yeah been drinking on Tuesday drunk humming waste of money drunk oh I tell ya, I got there, I buy a couple, Sally buys 'em because I, I give 'em tapes, I don't ask him, but he's one of these blokes unless he buys you one he'll take a funny oh get offended yes, gets dead offended, dead funny, dead nice bloke and he will buy you one whether you like it or not He wanted me to spell your name oh I know love it what? on a wrote down on his book it wasn't him get off I've got a confession mother do you have we're having a double wedding oh God Aren't we spotty? are you, are you twenty three this year? no I wish, twenty four ee, I make you a year younger I was saying to dad in bed last night Karen's twenty three this year no twenty four making her a year younger oh do you know what it is?, I always take our numbers, do the number on my age on the it never wins, so I've started taking another one twenty four and, and your dads, and your dads birthday twenty four, no twenty four well my birthdays on the twenty sixth twenty seven, last year I was on the twenty six, I was twenty six do you know about that Karen, do you know about that? what? not turning up not turning up er, did I not tell ya?, I forgot oh God no and you you keep saying she was seventeen, she was sixteen wasn't she Angela? yes I don't know you didn't believe me same age as Mike she's sixteen so she was fifteen ah I'm being recorded, ah I'm being recorded, testing one, two, three, testing it's like the, the language, like the English language of nineteen ninety up to date, you know the er tape the weirds and everything and it takes these batteries and everything and she says I'll pick them up eleven cock, o'clock on Friday eleven o'clock and you'll get twenty five pound voucher twenty five pound voucher for Marks and Spencers oh I mean you'd have all the conversation anyway in there, so oh it's eight now aren't we? oh dear me April the tenth aye, tenth of April more like, more like it'll be it's the same everywhere you go in't it?, yeah it is, it's the same everywhere you go it's erm testing, testing, one, two, three what you doing love? eh?mm she's been on the phone, they've rang Blackpool now, gonna get back to tell Brian last night what a carry on I says probably Monday so I thought well I give it time any way in case you get in to he's not in no I not he's not end of month, there's now't you can do about it insurance thing what's that? eh? insurance payment yeah, those insurance we take it out oh I haven't a thing in till her money goes in end of month she only gets paid end of month so how much are you expecting anyway? eh? how much you expecting to get? four hundred, you see I'll have to take some of that oh the licensing they sent a reminder this morning, I said they didn't need do that, I know it's last day of April, it's gone up aye, I know eighty pound if it's not one thing you know it's fortnight ago from Co-Op it's forty one P a packet, went last week it was forty six P a packet, so Richard and Angela went the other day for nan and they got me some at same time, she leant me the money, yeah, cos I was absolutely broke, gone back down again to forty one oh, I don't know what they do though like can't do anything about it David we're getting in touch with Blackpool, summat's gone wrong somewhere along the line, that's what he's waiting for a call oh ain't it the call what? I said this what? you're waiting for a call yeah, that's what I said that's why he's had the paper out, must of cost us a fortune in phone calls make you sick, first they tell you you've got money and then you found out you haven't, it's still in transit somewhere yeah he said we should of got it, it should of gone in the bank the day we got that letter should of gone in the bank the same day as that the date of that letter there at the bank as you know one minute nothing rung up this morning still not there rang bank up this morning, summat wrong somewhere and it's supposed to be done by a computer, I don't trust computers I don't, I says the first I don't know about having it back I should of said send it home send it to me address mm that way you're sure and then you put your own in bank, you know it's there you have to wait a few days for it to clear don't ya? what? the cheque I don't know David cos er, you have to wait three days for it, and then cheque's gotta clear in the bank, it's like our Mark he had a cheque put in his, he had to wait three days before it cleared went in on the Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, don't count Saturday, Sunday, Monday, cleared by Tuesday dinner time yeah, I wouldn't of touched it straight away anyway aye ready on by a computer, do you have to wait three days? what for the cheque you're gonna have to wait three days to clear in it? in your bank what?, what? this money is it a cheque or it's computer, computer transaction computer oh computer transaction oh they just type it though it's in your account already yeah, but it goes from computer to computer, but summat's gone wrong ain't it?, somewhere along the line, they've rang the bank themselves maybe he didn't believe your dad or not I don't know, she got back to him, she says, we've rang your bank and they were very helpful, they saw it so what you have to do is ring Blackpool, she says as so as soon as Blackpool ring back, she'll ring yeah it's not an actual cash transaction oh all they do is diddle some keys and it goes off to T S B and then it goes into your account, that's the way it's supposed to work they have been excited for a bit of money and end up with nowt, sending you letters that's it look's like that an all, I want to know if it's going in weekly or monthly oh God because that's only supposed to be up to this week three more weeks in April what she doing? she'll have to push that back right now hello puddy cat, hello oh you've just had something to eat ain't ya?, without throw you about oh aye I'll be sick puking it up all over carpet be still, that's a good boy, let your food go down he's a bugger, he gollops all his food and then he throws it back really that's good Monty was Timmy always sick? er full of fluff balls yeah why he's had his, his oh, that stuff went in that stuff I dunno, he's alright, happy now turning over, I can't be bothered why don't we just carry on just as fast to eat some of his tea I had to do some custard in the microwave last night, cos it might of, came out like slut ee water, blinking shambles, I ended up chucking it away I don't do mine in microwave I do it in a saucepan what, put my I just fancied I know,but I just fancied some custard you're suppose to be going up your mothers, what you doing mince for tea for? be on at Kays an all haven't ya? in case me number one son comes round starving again, I'll have a pan of stew for him to dip into, plus he left half inch in bottom so he wouldn't have to wash pan I didn't have much of that, I didn't like the look of it it wants washing that pan anyway it doesn't it's washed I tell you what you'll give 'em till next Tuesday and if it don't come by then you still, you can just cancel it save up is that all the is that all they do? mm save up and buy it, it won't cost I know, I mean when you think about it, what is it you'll have, a tape deck, amplifier, oh you have to mm tape deck, amplifier and your you're not bothered about the tuner no no I never use that one, so so three amp, amplifier I can get for about there it is a hundred and fifty how much? what amplifier, Pioneer yeah a hundred and fifty this is a hundred and fifty pounds equalizer you can get one for a hundred and thirty, that's two seventy eighty nine was the equalizer yeah, but you're talking Pioneer here yeah tape deck, well it varies, you can get one, a double one for a hundred and fifty more, or a hundred and twenty nine so your total was about four thir about four fifty roughly what we've got in here is Goodmans, Crown, Akai and Sharp but only one Sharp Sharp is a midi compact disc player them's are aye said they'll call me mm granddad's doing it Angela said you're using your mum and dads address so we can put the banns in here with it yeah I know only your mother wasn't sure she asked me on the phone oh said yeah, Richard is using your address to put the banns in here with Angela a month now, used aye to be three weeks, gotta putta your banns in for a month you can put them in two days before but you need a special licence, which is seventy eight pounds, it's a bit of useless information really what are them like? banns banns multiplication who to? the registrar office they go in a glass case at the registrar office in a you know a display, a notice board fella, fella's don't have to do it aye and that's put on and if, we say for argument sake that er she was married, we know she's not, but she could be and her banns are in and her husband gets wind that she's getting married again, you know, so he goes into the registrar office has a look, and she's already married to me and this is what it's for this is what it's oh I didn't know about that. I'm surprised dad you hadn't bought the pioneer system It's too expensive I dunno you're paying that much out, four hundred quid near or something aren't ya? three hundred and summat three hundred and seventy three hundred and seventy two I think it is three hundred and seventy nine it's that, I don't want the full system anyway, I only want are them separate? er mini hifi's I don't know whether they're separate or er you like your separates don't ya? your talking seven hundred and odd quid four, nine, nine no, with a C D I think it's seven hundred and odd quid in it? dunno, I'm just trying to find out what you want here was it the you rang up? yeah God it's ridiculous in it? nine fifty a head four, nine, nine, nine, nine nine pound fifty a head I mean you can get a dearer one a multiple yeah compact seven, seven or nine pound fifty a head twin compact disc seven, two, eight and there's a twin compact disc as well that's all inclusive that's everything that is your,play semi automatic record deck which I don't want well it's part of it really yeah I mean that comes off it, I can see that much, I just thought it was good anyway yeah sell it to Richard couldn't you? huh twins er set decks, tape to tape record, high speed dubbing and up two hours continuous playing that's high speed dubbing, twin auto tape cassette decks, got one and to play back she says long medium, F M stereo waveband, digital tuner,thi , thirty six pre stations yeah, which I don't want anyway five band stereo graphic deviser with spectrum analyzer it's a lovely little lady also a multi synchrony editing system from recording from compact disc, twin compact disc player with twenty four tracks from random memory, three way speaker system, headphones and auxil , auxiliary full functional remote control mm except turn table he said oh don't want speakers cos I've got them there no I know, but I mean I don't want a turntable, I'm not bothered about it yeah, but five hundred quid, a couple of hundred more yeah I know one seventy more and you get a twin play compact disc player from it oh aye I know what you're saying you get the tuner, you get the equaliser and you get the, okay you don't want the record deck, but you could always sell the record deck to buy new speakers oh yeah, I suppose, I suppose so Richard he couldn't, he'll probably buy the Pioneer speakers mm and the deck, so you make what say, a hundred quid there, cos brand new speakers and a brand new record deck so you'd only be paying four hundred quid for it mm which is only about, how much? dad Karen say, she's still got her she's asked Karen to be a bridesmaid a bridesmaid she said she's still got her bridesmaid, bridesmaid dress at least she'll come smart has she?, oh well, there you are then that she wore for her mum's, it's peach you don't want it peach anyway it doesn't matter you can have peach can't she? everyone has peach so one sixty, one sixty two fifty say she's only a little doll aye three eighty possibly for them mm you might as well say three eighty, it's a hundred and twenty quid more and you could sell the speakers and the deck mm I'd rather have that then I tell you is Richard's sister wearing a bridesmaid dress? yeah, of course she I thought you said they can't Yeah, travel line, and I says to her I said I'm looking at this V F M bus timetable I says the five two, one I said it goes down ? Street, I said is that, is that alright, you know sort of thing I said would I, she said yes she said it does, she said it, it runs the same route as the five, two, seven, but it runs early then it becomes five, two, seven, the five, two, ones still on, like a two seven and a two one, two seven, two one and there were yeah That's side B now and then it'll be full yes that's side B, it's not going any where on three I pressed it in aye it is, yes oh dear I suppose really if you want to eat something I'll get it in Oh yeah don't have any question about that yeah but erm I'm the same with Arthur Sunday night we listen to the er Messiah, I was going to tape it and I thought no I don't, I doubt if this tape would this machine what on this? on this aye so I erm, we watched it, anyhow Monday I went into er Smiths and asked them if it was on tape mm she said no it's not, not, I doubt it, by now she said I don't know whether it will take it, whether the, the, you know the or not what's that? Messiah Handels Messiah? yeah it's on record in't it? oh aye oh it's on ta it's on video, yeah it's on video is he? but not that, because that's no it's on the oh er, now she said the only one we had, in fact she said the only one that's listing is the one that was done in the Abbey, Westminster Abbey, with the Westminster choir and the London Philharmonic in nineteen eighty two oh she said and that's the only one that listed our Angela's after that song in the South in't she? aye is that on video? yeah it was good, when were that? er two B B C two B B C two aye I thought we watched on Sunday, what did we watch on Sunday? dunno oh me wrestle mania was on me and Angela watched films I watch me wrestler mania from ten o'clock till one how many more different strokes have you to do for your map? oh there's only two on there no, but where's the other one?, I thought there was one on last night they're on every night Friday, er, erm, er Monday to Friday five o'clock how come you forgot? I forgot to set it, I forget, did forget about 'em you see sometimes before that, a today and they were perfect oh aye not a flaw on them lend you the tapes well I'm wondering whether it's one or two of the tapes, I just can't sort out which they are somehow what tapes are they?, what's that one?what make?, it's gotta name on it what the machine? no the tape no the tape er, I tell you what we seem to be having difficulties with yes, those are the ones that seems to be the I bought some new tapes four hours off the market, two fifty each, and one of them's dead faulty in't it? oh aye yeah well I says I'm not getting no more well that's true it'll go so far and then it just switches off mm I can't really see that being the tape itself mm, makes you wonder that if you shouldn't pay the dearer price and get the proper decent tapes get decent tapes, yeah don't even, get the cheaper ones, like we had no trouble with the Memorex did we? no they were dearer, but we had no trouble with them but then again we've not with that them four with have with them four hour oh them four hour yeah, well they're lousy quality with them well they were two fifty each two fifty each yeah, I wouldn't call that cheap oh there was summat on t'other day, Sunday, and I told him and he forgot about it didn't he?, The Bluebird oh yes forget didn't he? got satellite haven't ya? yeah, anyway I think it's on again on the fifteenth, so I've written it down so I don't forget because he'll forget oh I says to him you could of taped that for your mum, I says she'll like that, he says I forgot, ee I says you tell me I'm going senile but it always seems to be something we want special, either a silly little comedy and things like that they were perfect, but anything we really want, it always seems to stop as I've taped something mm as I've taped something, cos it's spat out ain't it? yes I well er I tell you what it was, it was Samsung, if you've a little bit of tape and you end at beginning and you want it, well say you wanted to tape to test a little bit say off telly or right, you did that much and then you re-wound it back to the beginning then, it's stubborn that it won't do it, it will not re-wind yeah at what? at the beginning I mean at the beginning? yeah well that's the same now if I tape for about an hour and a half or an hour and then rewind it, it'll go mm but it will not do a little bit no, er ooh it's annoying now that tape that's in now, tt, there's a little bit at the front of that and it's been on, oh it must of been on a fortnight and it doesn't matter what you record it's still there it's still there it's same with a Samsung, I end up sometimes putting it in the Toshiba one, to re-wind it back, but I've had some funny tapes I have just lately, it's the tape that won't re-wind, because how I've noticed been the tape like, cos I've put it in the Toshiba and re-wound, but it wouldn't even re-wind in the Toshiba, so Arthur says well he says that's the tapes yeah I think I'm gonna go back to Memorex tapes again that I had, had er, never oh, we've had no trouble with the Hitachi no, no we haven't had much, no, no we haven't had trouble with the Hitachi, just the machine itself actually yeah and er, then we had a bit, but er everything in the bottom drawer there, those are all playing alright yes we're just, we're just running on five tapes I think, well only four because one of them are oh well, let's go upstairs again oh that's where I'm going shall I nip up before you? er be quick can you manage to get up? oh yes I think I can pull myself up Well fetch it in here, that's it What, just there? pardon? your man said aye we've got nothing to hide have we mum? what about that other business put it down there and it, and it doesn't go anywhere anyway cos they'd of no, but that stops anybody else it's alright there who won't be getting it's sliding what they're getting no, no they don't tell you what they're getting do they? oh no what I'm saying to you now is, I was saying to Arthur, the, the petrol money that we used to put in for petrol, it cost us five pound a week in the winter, but in the summer it cost us eight pound a week sometimes ten yeah but five pound on putting that away definitely, every week, as it's all paid petrol money, so now I've got eighty pound, eighty pound is in me, me, one of me purses and that is, it has on, there again, I mean everything, not a lot,if you'd to go in you'd see, it'd have a, it'd have erm petrol money, it's eighty pound, now I'm saving that so by the time aunty Mary comes I shall have probably a hundred pounds in that so she is coming well she said she, she wants to come and she'd like to come, but it'll be end of June, because she's going to some er Methodist day out somewhere, I don't mm, mm know where they've planned owt to go, and er, so she said it'll get end of June or even July is she , is she coming by train?, cos she told us it was better by train well I suppose she will, I don't oh know nothing after that, but anyway I said it will, I'm putting this away so I'll have a hundred pound then and if she doesn't come I says I'll have a hundred pound for yeah, yeah now if I want to go down to the sea front well I'll shall get a taxi and, and shan't be worrying where me next meals coming from because I've saved it, so, so that's, that's no worry, I was saying to Arthur if we went to Butlins well it would take all we had, because it, we couldn't go to Butlins under three hundred pounds for two of us, we couldn't go anywhere else, if we go to Blackpool, our, our said to, to, to dad, I, I would like to pop to, er I don't think we will do because, er, the hassle for your dad, but er, I'd like to go and see aunty Annie, but I don't want to go to Nelson to do it no because it'd mean I'd have to go to bank of and, and this borough and well I said I wouldn't mind spending a week at aunty Mary's me for a week and we couldn't do that well you're alright because she gi but we're not we can't go, Angela can't get herself up, if she come here, who's gonna look after Sparkie? see what I mean that's no excuse I mean Sparkie I'd come here, all the time, well Iris has a I mean well don't you think your mum I'd have it? why do you think that? I don't know him oh don't be so daft, I had him er over a year he's a little, aye I know but he's , yeah I know but it wasn't for a week was it? he's, it wasn't a minute struggle, you, you kept harping on all week he's in, in the he jumps in the window mum and well you get Shane he's a badden he jumps in the window is he he's on his best behaviour he's, he's awful but, er never made more bother with, some kids down there by the erm so honestly mum if we I mean if we but wanted a week somewhere would you have him for us with Angela? of course we would wouldn't we ? who? we'd give you the money for his food and that little Sparkie Angela and er Angela and I'll tell you what she can come anytime she wants little Sparkie yeah, of course and I mean you can get about when you, when you go but we can't so it's no good, if we put a bed in our spare room I said I'd like a break, spend a week with aunty Mary or summat in that flat, driving me I know I mean I could say well like Elsie I could say ooh well I mean she comes, she leaves him I mean nine o'clock in the morning to sign on and she doesn't get home until half past, six it's I know all day by yourself, well I couldn't do that with your dad no well, like I'd say I'd go down to post office, I say no I'll go with ya, it was raining last Thursday, I said no I'll go with ya, so I said I'll wait and see if it'll, it'll be fine, but he's not like that he's an old, I wouldn't, well well we were only talking about I wouldn't dare leave him by himself I wouldn't think of leaving your dad by himself, going out gadding about we were only thinking about it this morning and I says I wouldn't mind a break, you know, like, cos, I mean aunty Mary's always inviting us, and, and we were talking about the cat I mean there's, there's nowt no harm if, if, if you went to aunty Mary's and she definitely gave a date, a date to come, it would be nice if you went and come back fetch her back, mm come back with her, come back with her yeah, yeah oh I mean er you know, so to go before hand and fetch her here back with us what I'm saying is with Arthur says get yourself four hundred pound go to aunty Mary's, but you don't want to go to aunty Mary's do ya?, you'd rather her come here I'd rather she come here mm I've got I mean to the stage now where I don't want to run about no I mean if, he, it's alright your dad doesn't moan mm and you know that, I mean your dad well I says plenty of to Arthur I want a change from that flat I'm sick of looking at four walls the what? I like the new single decker well when you're only young I mean I like them that's it they are comfortable yeah you're only young people I'm forty eight, oh dear and it's like I said mum it's not because I don't trust Angela you mean the blue ones I'm worried aye, yes that's right she cannae get herself up in the morning if there's nobody there, can she? well I don't know, she got herself up this morning yeah, I know, but, you, you know what she's like there's no need for her to be on her own, I mean there's a bus stop right at door that's what I said that's what we said I says if she went up to your mum and dad, I said the eighteen drops her right, you know, the stop mm we'll have to see anyway plus, plus Sparkie I'll be alright with Angela have you talked about this with her? I'd give it a good hiding if it didn't behave mm have you talked about this with her before? what? what? what? what you're talking about now no no oh, it's funny, but yesterday, cos you know oh yeah he said I don't know you were in here and I were in there, in your sitting room, she were happy to make tea, she were right working she were, she were helping to make tea and, I don't know how she, how it came, but she said granddad, I thought oh something's coming now I says what?, she said if I came to stay with you, she said after Richard's you know sale, if I came to stay with you for at the weekend shall I have to go in that shall I have to go in that spare room? mm well I said that's up to you, but I said if you want a bed back in our room, you'll have to fetch it I'm not and yet she sleeps on her own at your house doesn't she? mm yeah she doesn't like it though no, she doesn't like no yeah, well, er, as you say Arthur quite when er she'll have to get used to it when Richard was staying she went in middle of us and she was, she were a lot more comfortable, than what she is when she's in her own room the thing with them, a bed with them, she'll not come in now, and never come, no reason why not, cos I know she smokes so what does she do that we haven't to know, so I says oh I says this bed isn't gonna keep being here and no An no Angela in it no so I says it's going, now as far as the, er, what they call it that fella that come to did that job do mm? as far as I I wouldn't say it was any better, I don't know whether it is or not, but I've just done one good thing, it's got the bed shifted yeah because he couldn't get to there you see so I said well it'll have to go now, well we've got it shifted and it's thrown away and, and that's the end of that, so I says now when she does decide to come and she wants to be in here, well I said she'll just have to carry a mattress in, and that'll be alright just for her to sleep on aye, yeah only there won't be a bed, but I said if she does, then she'll have to remember when she goes back home to put it back, cos I'm not lugging beds about no she'll have to get somebody to help her to carry it back, that's all I said no I said we don't do that no because we've condensation oh so he said this one I'll have to be done mm anyhow he looked all around and, very nice lad, er and then he came, he said I had to for you by the way if we ever did do that stay with aunty Mary, right, then she came back with us yeah and Angela happens to be sleeping over as she does at her job yeah where would she get the five, two, one from?, I mean she couldn't get a, on a Sunday, she'll have to have a taxi won't she? what? how'd ya mean if she's, she's sleeping over? if she was sleeping over if she was sleeping up here and she was sleeping over in home, you know how she'll, at weekends, what she calls sleeping over yeah oh she could do that she'll be there but if she wasn't sleeping over she had, say she had to as dad said she'd had go from your mum and dad's on the Sunday morning, where would she catch a bus for the Sunday morning? er, probably the five fifty from down, on Perth Avenue is it running? yeah but I thought you said there was only the five, two, one no, no no, no, five fifty goes to and she doesn't go to well it doesn't time oh that was the one we looked at yeah yeah yeah but she'll have to walk from wouldn't she?, right up Dean road and down Westow yeah, aye yeah it's about it doesn't matter it's about nine minutes to seven I think isn't it something like that mm from there I should think she'd be earning enough money to pay a taxi I should think she will on the Sunday well I think she should, she might not be able, they'll be, they'll be I should think, I mean you'd have to, you'd have to see when aunty Mary were coming on what whenever you've had to find er out for this Sunday haven't ya? oh if you want alright cos she's working this Sunday mum mm? yeah mum what? she's working this Sunday yes that's why you'd have to find out aye, we were, we were looking for one that, yeah tell her we kept looking Angela, you'll have to tell you can't get you found it on the bus didn't ya? where'd you put it? where'd you put it oh I didn't find it, it were in, in thing in thing, yeah the by drivers seat, and I just picked it up by chance really, er normally I don't bother with it, I look after 'em and I leave 'em, but I thought no I'll have one,to say I tell you what I'm not happy with that lettuce, I shall look round again for an iceberg what lettuce? that lettuce we got what's that got to do with buses that special salad , I'm just saying oh, no special salad , there were no iceberg, he didn't have an iceberg in the shop I like me iceberg because you can eat it all can't you? aye, er I don't like the round lettuce at all no and ooh aren't they dirty dad?, there're yeah real filthy have to do that three times that one I've got special salads they soon will be getting rid off yeah aye it's like and the tomatoes aren't they? yeah, and the tomatoes weren't bright, can't get no more of them nectarines, when he says keep 'em for two days cos they were hard, gets after two days not on the table chuck when, when I bake one, it was like it was bad inside mind, what you want? erm somebody's drink going cold eh? fag somebody's drinks going mine cold on the table oh she likes cold tea now I know why well I don't but erm, I can't do guess who liked cold tea do you want it? not yet not yet of course I do I tell you what mum if you're spending money at Co-Op, you can't see what you get can you? pardon? you can't anywhere you're spending money can't see what you get eh we had some er fresh stuff have the, stuff and I wish I'd remember that fella I'd had, I'd tell him off yeah yeah yeah what price is he? forty five forty five yeah, but Co-Op's dropped back down ain't it, to forty one yeah, but I've, but I mean he hasn't said he yeah, yeah I know the milks milks gone back up though hasn't it? eh, oh I don't know er, having got one er yesterday what you having? I'll just have a sandwich one, five, dad eh? one pound, five P one pound, five P, it's one sixteen down here is it? yeah oh it's gone, it's gone from ninety seven to one five cos he got me one yesterday, he went to get that stuff yesterday, cos I spent what twenty pound eighteen pence yesterday and honestly I couldn't see what I got well I should say the like er he says the toilet rolls the soft ones have dropped down, cos I get the soft Kleenex ones, everybody's complaining about and he said they'd dropped them three pound, is it twenty nine?, to two eighty nine now mm and there's nine oh do you get, have you get eighty nine some er Bovril? aye I've done your Bovril er I can't remember where I got them from, but they weren't in two dozen packets they were in dozens dozens aye aye it was a lot more weren't they? but we haven't seen that at all I know but mum I haven't seen any two dozen boxes no we haven't seen any anywhere so what I did I just got four packets of their dozens, cos he won't have anything else except Bovril no, well I don't like anything else well actually me jars going right there and I can't remember, whether I did get that from Co-Op, I think I did Co-Op, but they were in dozens, and I think Presto had some oh well the Co-Op down here have them in dozens, but they yeah Presto had some in, and they were in dozens hundred and odd, there, but you know for two packets yeah they're dearer aren't they, the yeah I can't remember how much I can't remember how much have you got can't remember if it was forty nine or fifty nine for a dozen yeah summat like that yeah yeah they're very dear I think it were forty nine for a dozen yes I think it was summat like that June ninety eight, I think it was for two dozen, what happen we didn't have much choice you couldn't get the two dozen boxes Arthur where did we get the Bovrils from? they were only in dozen boxes weren't they? er, I think it were Denmark Centre Denmark Centre Denmark Centre think so where do they have the two dozens, when we last got the two dozen box? eh? Asda Asda and Co-Op a long time ago but Asda there was the last place to have, we got er two dozen box from but that was sold out until the day when I went in for milk er dad says it's one sixteen now well will you have that Arthur? yes that enough tomato? aye, can I have some lettuce is there? yes there is some lettuce I didn't know you wanted it I, well then, I I don't want no cucumber though eh? don't want no cucumber you don't want no cucumber no I don't want none, erm, a hundred a five the ordinary the thing I was just telling you dad it was, but the there's no, there's no lettuce oh it don't matter then, does it do you want a bit of mine? there's skimmed and their semi skimmed was ninety eight, but the fresh stuff was a hundred and five and last time I get some it was ninety seven oh you could of had egg Arthur aye, go on then I'll boil one, but I didn't know Arthur wanted a salad, cos he reckons he doesn't like I'll have a salad, I'm not bothered, I'm saying I'm not that hungry so a salad would go down nicely. Where there're at least er a hundred and sixteen down here a hundred and sixteen that's did you get any headache tablets mum? no, I forgot well see I forgotten and I'd been down to Boots an all I, aunty Mary had them once, one time and said yeah what d'ya take if you've a bad head?, huh it gets a bit of a chore with different I grin and bear it oh prices all over shop my nose starts pouring of blood oh so does mine well you didn't say you wanted a salad darling I could of done that I said I'll have a owt for ya, well we could, you'll have to wait a minute now oh I will then er,here oh it's what? eggs are ya? how'd they get there? well I take them away when I've finished with them do you want a knife and fork? just a, wait a minute, no Ee, now where did I see them?, seventy two pence on Shanks on Baldwin Lane seventy two pence? yeah, is that good? mm? seventy two pence here oh they're cheaper at er what? just dad are you coming to table or yeah aye, I shall do even eventually, er the other end days days, oh aye, yeah yeah nineteen pence a pound in there oh, oh aren't you love? what? what? seems with what a shame you can sit on the there shanks usually weigh about two and a half pound oh, well that's cheaper then there that's cheaper yeah oh ee I'll tell you whose here er Presto er seventy two a pound oh for, you know a, just a little Oxo yeah, yeah, I didn't know what they were like at seventy two it just said on window on one of them shops on Baldwin Lane er, we got two of those last week didn't we? mm? where have they been? what?, what you talking about? those er shanks, that er, er nineteen a pound on Baldwin Lane probably been to Lambeth House I think well that were a long time ago, they've got some from down here, Edinburgh Road, you got one from Edinburgh Road aye I got one from Edinburgh Road, but I don't know how much there up there are, there's no price on them well ya, you know, you go round and fry this, makes your dinner oh well now that's summat else we don't do now, we don't, there's some at sixpence and some at tuppence we don't go round in a who no knows where to get into tuppence since when we've had the car we don't double back on our we just no well you can't I mean we just er get it now anybody, anybody that's daft have you got the er I tell you what we like we're not wasteful right, but, oh we can do it now because you're not thinking er, a tyres gonna want bursting can ya? no oh I don't do that anymore you put that in aye well I mean your well I mean if you're thinking of tyres gonna go, you've got to have your money in your purse like oh yeah you know there isn't gonna one go now eh, you put 'em in? yeah I would well you need them in your hand so what have you done with them? I don't know er mushy peas aye ooh they're lovely are they? only twenty four for a packet is that the down town? down town, yeah oh I'll have to have look down there then, cos we buy 'em, now where do we get 'em from now?, er Co-Op we got 'em from last time didn't we? what love? them mushy peas, well marrow fat marrow fat yeah yeah but, yeah because by the time you've paid your bus fare to well that's it aye er yeah shall I sit down to mine or shall I wait? no stand up I mean shall I eat or not no you can wait because er you can wait because it's not going to be that long yeah you can wait because er it'd, it'd be time, she'll have eaten up and then she'll say ooh I'll have another round I haven't had any mushy peas oh yeah, oh, I don't know what you do with 'em you know me I don't put on the cooker, cook 'em you just put 'em in don't act gormless, you don't know what to do with them at fifty two fifty three fifty three, well do you soak them or something? no no oh er, what you do, you just put them in a saucepan? just put them in a pan and cook 'em with water in 'em? oh yes you want some water with them otherwise they'll burn ooh listen her, she's acting as if she's now there er, she's half brain it'll be lonely no they take about twenty minutes with salt a little bit of salt, give them plenty of water so that so that's down town? down town, aye there's a nice Iceflow aye there is oh is there? mm oh I didn't know is there? yeah yeah, near where we go for the Iceflow no it's Iceland is that, Iceland? mm where it, no I thought the only Iceland yeah, no, near that butchers you know the butchers where the vets much further down you know the vets? oh no yeah where you take the animals, you come out right, and there's a butchers in't there?, cross over road, big shops on corner, it's on that block mm corner where I use to turn to work Street, where you used to live yeah on that block on that block yeah from where about, where the butchers used to be yeah, aye, it's round about there, it's either Iceflow or Iceland I'm not sure which one it is I'm sure it was Iceland but that in King Street is Iceflow in't it? what me mum says I have to wait oh yeah poor thing, it won't go cold if I have to wait for you I'll wait forever cos your eggs are not done oh they will be in a minute oh it won't be long mm oh I've just nipped it off the top of that one, that's not growing any more oh it's beautiful that, it's pink in't it? yes, but you're alright aren't you pet,the race horses them daffodils are gorgeous they're standing up again have you noticed mm yeah they were lying down the other day don't you ever put 'em in a vase mum? no, they die so quick they die in vases I had me others in a vase eh, me flowers are still lasting yeah, they are, huh got some more mince this week shan't we? yes oh them steaks we were beautiful aye over the lane ninety nine pence ninety nine ninety nine eh? yeah, but she charges five pound cos there must of been some little bits over yeah well that was five pound unclear five pound for five pound mind it's nice in it? five pound a pound, it's nice mince, yeah oh we just happened to be down town yeah they were nice were them steak puddings, I enjoyed them they were beautiful no I were gonna do, I got them for the days he says they were lovely there were four pound it's not Daves love yes it is, it's Daves butchers yes the one on the left? the one on the corner where we do the stew frying? the one on the corner , you know where the fish shop used to be oh no, I thought you said you got 'em from butchers what were they four for ninety nine pence? yeah what? aye mince pies mince pies oh well you make your own, I know you do, but they were nice I tell you who makes a nice mince pie, er Muriel from er who? who'd?, what? Edinburgh Road Muriel who were? aye down Edinburgh Road you said to down Edinburgh Road we've never gone in this place, it's a cook meat shop mm I haven't been in it since we've been here and I said ooh there, they're packed out and they had some beautiful stuff mm looks nice, no burnt or anything, and I says ee it's lovely is it, I said alright, would been down for this morning like and I says ooh come on then don't bother when you get home starting making anything I says just say, let's ask for steak pies, so I says er can we have er two steak and kidney pies please?, she said I'm sorry we don't, there isn't any kidney an all, I'm glad there isn't I didn't want, well I'd of eaten 'em like but I'd rather have them without yeah she said right, and they were forty, forty seven, well where ever you go they're fifty or fifty three for steak and kidney, steak pies and they were really nice weren't they? yeah, they were we really enjoyed them, but you see if we'd of got four they wouldn't of been so nice no but er, but tomorrow I might go down and get some again you see, cos they were really nice well you got them four for ninety nine and you enjoyed them didn't you? of them, I've had 'em before so I know they're nice Angela liked 'em didn't she? yeah yeah normally she's a pain I mean you're better to get stuff that you well if you get 'em it just so happens that how many packets of them mushy peas did you get? I just got the one just got the one oh I was gonna say cos I had one mushy peas but, they were really nice with them weren't they? we enjoyed them because aye, it was it, they were from tins, but yeah, because when I they're not as well when I open me tin of marrow fat and then I drain and I put butter in and mash, to mushy any way yeah I don't like the other peas, I love the marrow fat peas, the others are sweet though, I'm not struck on them no we got and I can't do, I can't do potatoes and mince and carrots and stuff like that because this one ere just likes potatoes and mince no I don't and the other one won't eat carrots, we end up getting oh I love carrots no, and mean end up doing separate stew mum I am for myself it's not fair that because I can't eat no well you shouldn't put carrots in, you should put 'em in a separate pan no Arthur that's how we made it where I come from yeah, but I don't like it like that, I like mince and potatoes stew where I come from is carrots, er turnips, potatoes and meat, I tell you what I haven't had, I think I'll have a change, I think I'll have some instead of mince for a change stewing beef oh no oh yes, look mum it doesn't mean does it cos he doesn't like it I can't have some stewing beef stewing beef, you like stewing beef you've got to sacrifice it before it's tender no you haven't, not in the pressure cooker, no, not, no you haven't, well do without, you don't need to have any, make your own self I will I haven't had any stewing beef for ages what do you keep looking at that for? see where it switches off well it'll switch off when it's done well I just fancy some stewing beef, you have what you like love don't you? stewing beef, you don't like stewing beef I do, but you've got to sacrifice it so, until it's tender aye, ney not in pressure cooker you haven't otherwise it ends up like bullets well you don't have to have any but I don't see why I should do without because you don't want any and chewing it and chewing it normally tender and chewing it and chewing it and chewing it and chewing it I'm gonna get myself some it's not going anywhere there's many a time I don't buy stuff mum for myself these are nice because these two are funny what are them? oh I don't buy I only buy what them likes, but as you say aye, steam steak in gravy, mm, yeah I just I just fancy a bit of stewing beef yeah well we get it through job lot all the time in, the yellow label oh I like or a shepherds pie filling, that's it I think you can get fed up with mince all the time can't you?, can you you know every night there's Angela, Angela never gets tired of mince no I know no I don't I like me mince he loves mince mince or steak right, I don't think mine are er a slice of bread please a slice of bread please, mm well that's her fault eh? I know what? I says two of them, now I'm being she already had a dinner and she went out about four o'clock for western spirit oh, it's her fault well that's what I said it's her fault, there's plenty of food in watch ya, I'm starving, when she comes in I bet she buys summat she'll take herself to mm yeah when she came up yesterday I said, we've had our dinner, I said do you want, want some dinner? of course I put it in the oven for her yeah no she said I'm alright now I've had a sandwich, so, anyhow she left it, so I left it, I said well it's there if you want, she said I'll eat it later then granddad, anyhow making the tea she said put the microwave on and we, we were having salmon we haven't had any salmon for ages have we? oh she set to work and she cleared the she had, what did she have?, meat, er chicken, potatoes, cauliflower, Yorkshire pudding aye, she said she had some chicken yeah she had, eh? having one of these eggs I don't know, you put 'em in are you having one? I'm not bothered no, not bothered, no well er no then if you want it I don't want it, I've got what I want here, oh I'm alright er, tt, she says is there a salmon left granddad?, I said yes of course there is mm and when she starts eating she can eat yeah can't she? oh aye ain't ya? ah, well I think she's going off er, either that or she's lazy, I think she's going off bacon that's mine of what? bacon bacon put bacon in and there's still some bacon in, it's usually all gone I were thinking, oh it were the day you came up with them and then you went off to, er Newcastle Newcastle, well I put, I thought you were staying to tea so I put six eggs on oh aye, yeah, alright you put what? put six eggs on didn't I?, anyhow, I'm putting, I'm putting two on mm on his salad and he eat it,I says there's an egg here Richard do you want it?, yes I'll eat it oh aye, he's yeah here is he's a big eater an all in he? mm, aye, he's got a good job to I always thought our lads were big eaters, till I come across him, flipping heck cos I don't mind what they have so long as they eat it well that's it yeah, oh I tell you dad what David said today when he come, tt, about the custard oh aye he says, I fancied, I fancied some custard last night so he said I did, I tried to make some in microwave and he says it turned out like sludge he said I'd er cement like cement he says I had to throw it all away throw it all away of course he had no recipe, although I don't make custard in micro I wouldn't know how to do it in microwave I always I always make it in microwave well I'll have to have the thingy of, of you dad we've got it in book give it to David you got it in book what you doing now? you said you wanted some I always er have you got er, have you got your knife and fork June? yes, yes has Arthur got one? yes, dad hasn't, you haven't could use knifes and forks take that back in now? no switch it off no, it's nearly to the end well take it in then it's going on the end mum, on the stool right look at my mother pinching my meat to put on yours oh, I'll take it back there we are look at that that's it, you have it she doesn't like to get stuff pinched off her does she Arthur? aye what's that? oh that's good in't it? rhubarb that's good what? plenty thanks very much what? what he's just said didn't say what he said though no, what'd ya say Arthur what's this? aye? rhubarb oh, oh look that's cake why, why'd you call it cake I dunno perhaps it knows it's gonna get eat yes, that's right well that's easy it is that's it, you'd better hurry, she want one off you, so there's a bus stop for Andrew well the next time I get something, she'll probably have her own place But mum I haven't You like a don't ya? yes please mum right, er That's in the right way . Mm. Don't like that red onion much. Eh? That red onion special salad. special salad . Mm . I took the onion out the middle. I'm surprised the about it actually. It was it was horrible. Well . to get rid of. special salad, sixty nine pence. It's a red onion . . Mm yeah a red onion. A raw onion. Only a red one. I know it won't be enough for me and Angela cos you're not a salad . How much is there? Now then can I sit down now. mum. . What's she doing Andr Arthur . . . salad I do. just er . . Oh. . Road in here. Stoke on Trent. . . Eh the lad that came, he said, He was a nice lad wasn't he? Mm. Came in, wanted to check over it. So I said yes. So he said er, Oh eh, wait a minute he said, where do you come from?where's that accent? I said, what do you mean, that accent. Well he says, you talk just like my mother. I says, Oh do I, he says yes. He said, she's she's from Manchester. Well I said Manchester's Lancashire . Oh he says, ee yes, he says, my you do. . . And then he was saying different things like he said er you know say,well w we were in . I said and and the lady said, ooh you're round here, I says,. And then I said he says he said, Ah, he says, you were Lancashire. I said and there's Yorkshire. Oh, he said, we've been to Yorkshire for our honeymoon. So oh aye have you, where. Oh she says, you wouldn't know where it was, she said, it's only a little place she said,Skipton. So she said, yes, she said, but you wouldn't know where this place was. So I said, well I don't know, I said, where was it? She said it was, oh well it were a place called erm , she says. So oh . And I don't know it? No she said, you wouldn't know it. .where did you stay in ? She said, ooh, she said, Terrace. Terrace. Oh I said, well, I said, shall I tell you something. She said yeah. Well I said, I was born in and I was also born in Terrace. . Oh, she said, well well I stopped at number two. So your dad said, well I was the boy next door but one. Ee, she says, my goodness a small world you know. And she was you wonder where it is, it's just a little village, she said. Mm. Huh. that lad came When was this all? Oh Oh . Huh. And you know people in the garage you know in Lincoln and down that way, nobody seems to have heard much of . Oh no it's only a tiny village. Yeah, they know the big places and you know like Halifax and Yeah but you say , where's that ? Ju just recently I met somebody. And He said, you're from Yorkshire aren't you, I said yes. He said, er where from... Mm. Well he said, there's Craven, he said,,or . And I said it's . He said, I knew it was from round there somewhere . And he said I think he said it was his uncle lived in . Mm. And he said, I don't retired now, but he said, for years he worked for Rolls Royce. And I said, yes . It's amazing how you come across people. Well quite honestly dad, when folk talk to me, they never get my right accent. Cos you're a foreigner. . They turn round and say to me, they never say Stoke on Trent, they turn round and say to me, what part of Yorkshire are you from? What part of Lancashire are you from? What part of Birmingham are you from. How come they can't get the right one? . my mum he's been here forty year and she's never lost never lost her accent . . I don't think . No I . You've and said that. north of Birmingham. from Birmingham. . . But most of the time it's what part of Yorkshire? What part of Lancashire? Do you think do you not think sometimes dad that some of the Stoke on the broad Stoke on Trent accent is a bit like Lancashire or Yorkshire. Mm Yeah. Yes and er Mm. What do you call them? . . No not the er . No at er Newcastle .. . he was er very near to the Lancashire accent. Mm. But me brother wasn't. Me brother was a real er Stoke on Trent. Yeah. . Alan Alan is a . A real cultured Geordie . Mm? . . Where does he get that from? . . . No. . . come back tomorrow. Mm. right away weren't he. . Hey them flowers are not doing so bad are they? No. . .. . Eh? give me a twenty five pound voucher. Yeah. want it for somewhere different from Marks and Spencers. you won't get so much for twenty five pound in Marks and Spencers . Well it's not that, what do they sell that you want. Well there's the food place isn't there. Ee I dunno. food market I'd have thought. . awful now, it's going to boot, Marks and Spencers. They used to have some nice nighties and Ah but they still Newcastle. Mm. They've got 'em but they're in Newcastle. South Shields She didn't say I had to go to South Shields. No. Shi South Shields is No . a good store . Newcastle. No. only cost thirty pence. come back, can't stop there forever. . . Yeah. . I'm not stopping eating Arthur, just because I've got this weight on me. It's not my . . Crikey, I could understand it if I ate four meals a day. . I mean dad I don't eat four meals a day. . No it doesn't cos your mother and dad don't believe No but that's it you see . Yeah. I haven't done so bad since I went have I. No. I had that bit today . I could live off that. If somebody put salad in front of me all the time, I'd just it wouldn't bother me like about salads is there . . Well normally he says a salad makes him hungry. have that salad, and do you know, ten minutes, fifteen minutes after say he was hungry. Oh aye I know. Who? Richard. salad he had here because it's three eggs. On it. throw it out because . I'm gonna let your dad or your mam put my rhubarb an cos I'll end up dropping it. . . like that. I mean once there's a space well you're alright. Yes, once you've got the first one . . . It's only a little bit. . . Flaming dustbin. I'm not. Our dad says he doesn't mind what people eat, as long as they eat it all . . Don't you dad. Say when. Yeah. Right. I'd better eat that. Well eat it. I don't turn my nose up at anything. That's true.. The man can't say I'm a fad can he mum. No. Not like some folk. . Did he tell you w he'd been to Hill Hotel. Mm. Yeah. Ground floor. Nice? I haven't seen it but Arthur says it's nice. . that'll suit me. . No just outside York . York . . . He can have a taxi. . . Eh? ? Have I what? round here. Careful mother. thank you. Hey? Are you fetching your your clothes with you? Are we heck. you think we were gonna change it.. . . . think we're gonna go think we're gonna go . Oh dear. Don't be daft. go all the way out. Well of course they do Bride and groom's . . Well. Well . by bus. Plenty of money. Use it for what it should be used for. . Yeah no we aren't. Put 'em on bus we'll never see 'em couple of hours. Ee Sunday What they gonna do though, tell taxi go away or wait outside. What . Where? No go to have your reception and he comes back at a a certain time. And they've got to be ready. long it takes If it well they say, come on, time we'll have to go. . No you'll be you'll have to get and get it written down because doesn't know what a a groomsman is. Mm. . What? Well I'm not doing it for her, she can do it herself. Oh aye. What? I says She'd decided now she's having Carmen as bridesmaid, not . Cos Carmen's on . Which is what she should have done in first place. Yeah but I mean, she's here to be isn't she ? Well you see, at the minute Karen has her own dress. So yo She talked to you Angela didn't she and you said, I don't see why you can't have pink. Karen went to a wedding and er somebody's wedding and she still has a dress. Marilyn's Marilyn's. Marilyn's it it's not right down to the ankles but it's reasonable you know and it's peach. try it on see if it still fits her. I mean she's only a little doll isn't she. said she weren't wearing why are you bothering . Size ten. Mm? Size ten Karen. Mm I suppose she will be. Karen said she w buying her own so why bother? Ah well not be able to buy her own. Eh? . Eh? Well well she should have had it by then. kindergarten. No no. The point is she's not on the doorstep mum is she, she's two hundred and fifty miles away. And that woman where we got Angela's dress from, if er Karen's peach dress does fit her, well at least Karen's there to be able to go where we got Angela's dress from. She's gonna have to come two hundred and fifty mile . No where you going? I'm going in the kitchen. Well wait till folks have had their tea. I finished. Well we'd have finished if we sat down when you did. walk away I tell you, you can't walk out in middle of sermon. . I said to Angela, eh, I said,if you go for that job you can't stop in middle of ceremony and say I have to go out granddad. You're not going straight after the reception are you dad? It just depends how dad is. It depends. And if we do we might come back when we've changed. If we haven't decided have we whether Mm? after tea. Yeah. Mm. honeymoon. with him. she's wrong. Mm? I'm sure Richard said Isle of Man. She keeps saying, Isle of Wight Isle of Wight.. Well you can't go to Isle of Wight at that time of day. . I don't know what they're doing. all that money, good Lord. . five hundred pound Arthur. .. They cannot just boot off somewhere without booking. . Yeah well aye, he's gonna find out different isn't he. He'll find out he can't he'll have to go near somewhere. He doesn't know it all. What is there at Isle of Wight that there isn't here? Palm trees. Mm? Palm trees. Oh. There's no palm trees in Isle of Wight. . Pardon? after I'd got back. There's no palm trees in the Isle of Wight. . there are. Where doe where do they think they're going to, the Canary Islands or something? palm trees at Torquay aren't there. . All down the front at Torquay. Yeah but you know what I mean dad, it's only a seaside thing isn't it? . No but I mean it's it's no better than the seaside I mean . cheaper. Well no but I do I shouldn't say . certainly not at this time of the year. If they want to be on their own, they could go book a chalet down on beach. Yeah that's an idea But I mean, the Isle of Wight if they went straight after the reception they wouldn't they wouldn't get there till Sunday . You can't think about they don't want to be on a station come here in Newcastle. . but they have to be told. say, alright but just say yes or no. they don't er be having her fainting and taking her to into Wig er Isle of M Isle of Wight hospital. It's gonna cost him enough what for cars and the wedding and what have you. And he'll find he's not so much change will he dad? . don't come cheap. And I said you want a I said you want an usher. And he looked at me gormless I know. and Angela said, an usher's to tell people where to sit. And I said you want a groomsman. And that hasn't been talked about yet. What's a groomsman. I d well he didn't tell, what's a groomsman, but his face did. Cos he didn't know. I said,people that knock at the door and say, the taxi's ready the taxi man doesn't come and do it. Ooh. I said, Richard we're not pushing and nosing but we want doing right. We don't I thought you'd mentioned that to him Arthur. Oh I have. No problem. to keep the children quiet. Well if there's no usher, I shall do it meself. Yeah you could do that mum couldn't you. I can't be doing groomsman. Oh no. You might have to take over last minute. . Well no it can't Angela ask him somebody ask him, he can't just arrive and start doing things. It's all got to be done methodically and be too nervous . Mm? He'll be too nervous. There's nowt nervous on knocking on somebody's door and saying I Are you ready? Where's the nervo er well .. Oh no he knows and that he's still shy mum. Well there's nowt there's nowt to be shy ringing somebody's bell and all he'll be ringing, he'll be ringing here. And where else will he be ringing? Wh to fetch in s his folks are coming in their car which he says they are. Anyway I'm not bothered about their But what if it's a taxi? folks so long as Angela and Arthur get there and What if it's a taxi taxi man . Does he heck. No no. No he has a have you been married? no I mean if he's booked for the day. for the wedding. Does he heck. No no er no the groomsman . No I don't remember much mum cos I was probably with me dad remember much about it either. Well No it's the t the taxi driver never gets out . Does he heck.. Well tell you what Richard's gonna find out how many taxis there needs to be doesn't he. Of course he does. whichever. He'll have to know who's coming but as I say, I'm not bothered so long as Arthur and Angela's there and and dad . Usually usually what they do, they have one taxi for the bridegroom's people and one for the bride's people. Right. That's all it and Right, so many journeys. And er y you sort of make your list of who has to go and where they've to come from, take it into the office, and they organize it. So that it works like clockwork. Well they should Angela should be doing that lot shouldn't she. Well you don't know who's coming yet so they're can't do it can they ? Oh yes, they've got them all written down Well you can't can you till they reply. If you don't know, you can't do anything. So it's best if they go off January and then they've got time to send them back haven't they. Oh yes, January at the latest. And they can all come down. got to be done properly. could knock at somebody's door and say, Commander are you ready? Well gonna have to . they don't know . They're on about erm perhaps she's got a new outfit.. For her own for her own daughter's wedding . Erm Angela's on about nipping from the army across into West Berk. If it's a nice day, it'll be much better. Mm. what's if it's pouring down with rain? running taxi and it'll take her to reception. at the reception. there. He's a professional isn't he? Who? The photographer. 's supposed to be yeah. . She said he was a professional didn't she Arthur? What's that? . Yes. Yeah. doing er layout photographs. He's doing it as a wedding present. He's not er charging them anything like. . That's a I says, What can we give them as a wedding present? he says, I'm giving me daughter, that's a wedding present. Ee. . What? You'll have to give him a present . Wedding present. No no Great. I mean you're doing the cake for a wedding present. You're not for a wedding present or are you giving here a present? . . What? Didn't she? What the we the cake as a wedding present or are you giving her a present besides. I've told her dad to sit because people might get the same thing. I was asking her if they had a a stand for a cake, she said yes . Eh? A stand. We haven't . A what? No you. No us . No the the hotel? Ah. Have they? I should think they will have. Well you'll have to find that out Yes they usually have. Well if they haven't we'll just have We didn't Well if it they haven't it doesn't matter I'll I'll just stand it on table. have a stand when we were married. I know we didn't. They didn't have a stand when they were married. It w you used your No but if they if they had one it er it serves . It was. No it weren't No it weren't No it was on thick board. Oh yes. Oh it was lovely wasn't it. And Three tier and the basket. Have you still got your pillars. Oh I've still got me pillars yes. I've got the ones that tried to eat as well. Aha. . Thought it were icing. It were lovely that cake. I'm saying I have, where are they, do you know ? I don't know where they were. I know where they were. Perhaps Nicodemus has helped hisself to 'em. They were in that top cupboard weren't they? They were in the top cupboard at one time yes. there.. I wonder it'd cost to buy those today. . It won't be worth get cake from you. Seven and six they were. Aye. I say I don't know where she's gonna get cake done yet you can't ice a i ice a cake if you haven't got one . Have you seen mum,. cake stand, it's at the back, it's on a poster. It's a big three tier cake. And t'other week I were up there and I I was just asking woman just as a matter of interest love, I said, how much . You said, you're talking above a hundred pound there. Well over a hundred pounds. Yeah . Yes they are. Yeah. Well She says in fact, you're talking nearly two hundred pound. One cake, two hundred pounds. Yeah. Yeah. Oh. Well we worked it out roughly, at about sixty pounds. Yeah. To make it. To make it, yes. Yeah. That's without decorate and icings and what have you Oh no that's the that's cake complete Yeah. apart from the ornaments. Yeah. Yeah but you're her grandparents aren't you? I mean she wouldn't get it for that cheap would she. Oh would she heck . that one outside. When what do you call 'em were here, had to pay three three sixes are eighteen, that's a hundred and eighty pound, two hundred pound . A hundred and eigh A hundred and eighty pounds. It's be. And and and if er . well he did one for Yes. They did one for somebody Even less. and they were to charged them two hundred pounds . she charged them two hundred pound yeah . Yeah. And that were only a one tier. That cake that was in the paper, there was a cake in the paper, a big square one. Yes. Hang on and it was three hundred pound. . You know, square. I'm telling you, that one that's in Co-op where cakes are, where you get your cakes from. Yeah. There's a picture of one there, I was asking woman t'other week, how much are they, she says nearly two hundred pounds. Ee. But to me it's a waste of money, nobody wants any. I've told your dad, I says,make some concoction somehow or another, a wood a wood thing and ice it, that's all you want, just the icing to look beautiful. Well I know one person as'll eat it. He loves it. Don't he. Who? Well who loves it? three tiers for three tier wedding cake for him . No but who loves it? I don't know. David. Oh aye. . He loves it. like they used to be, I don't know what to do. You're not paying two hundred pound that's a certainty but I don't know what whether to make one or not. I don't know what to do.. I know one thing I'll . Well I've told you what it is darling. Mm? You're using . I know one thing I'll not be eating at the buffet. That quiche stuff whatever it is. quiche but I don't like it. You'll have to cut down on your eggs. . I think that's the problem. I don't mind doing one in there Anyhow we'll we shall have to experiment before we start doing it. To get the recipe just right. Mm. See the fruit's dropping at the moment. Aha. But in a when you harden it, you do it upside down. And then you'd be alright. upside down. But I don't know what to do because as I say, you don't want any, I don't want any, your dad doesn't want any. No but all the other guests might like it . June reckons she doesn't li June doesn't like it. You've can't make a a wedding cake with no cherries in. Well that's one, two, three, that's four of us d didn't, that's five, Richard doesn't that's six. So why bother? Doesn't he like it either? No. Oh. Well piece of 'em but if you're only gonna be eating a piece it's not gonna be big . What's that . Sixty sixty pounds for a cake. . Educate this daughter, what's a vol au vent? I am not thick A vol au vent? Well you know what vol au vents are. I don't mum. Well it means wind in the sail. But it's a little . It's a little er Just by somebody talking I don't know. pastry. It's puff pastry round puff pastry . And you scoop the middle out and you fill it with whatever Prawns or Oh well Salad or Well. Some people put jam on them. if somebody said that to me like dad's just explained, I'd know. Well you know, you've seen them . posh names . in a lot of . No . forgotten I think. . Can I borrow this. I borrowed this one last time. . . Vol au vents are like pastry . like little cases aren't they. Mm. Little cases yeah. Yeah. You can buy them ready made. But I'm saying, you don't want any cake, I don't want any, Arthur doesn't want any, dad doesn't want any, Angela doesn't. Oh er what else, who else is there . I like wedding cake. But do you heck, you don't like you said you don't like it. I do like wedding cake but the only thing I don't like in some cakes is ch But you don't like them cherries. the peel. No you don't put peel in but you say you don't like cherries Oh I don't like glace cherries no. Well you can't make a wedding cake without glace cherries. No but you can pull them out can't you . Oh yes I'm gonna eighty pound for a cake for folk to put cherries out. say make a wood'un and ice it. And then they'll all have a shock when they don't get a piece. Or have a plain one. No you can't ice a plain one. You can't ice a plain sponge mum no can you. I mean that er A big one . at thing that was alright. It was firm. There were a recipe in for Queen's for Queen Mother's birthday cake. But it was plain . Oh the Queen Queen Mother's birthday cake. Aye that was a plain one, she must And you could put some she mustn't like fruit. And there again, she doesn't like butter-cream so w No. what do you Well it'd be unique not to have a wedding cake wouldn't it. But you can't er I'd rather have the money. You can't er fresh cream. There's really a lot of people who don't bother about wedding cakes. It's all a farce. there to see, Yeah. done on a wood wood piece, they wouldn't bother whether they got any or not. No she seems to be looking forward to Well she wa she's not looking forward to cake, she's she's looking forward to the beauty of seeing it isn't she ? Yeah. Yeah. Because er while I've had wedding cake from people and and they give you a little bit and I've said to you haven't I, well I wouldn't have bothered giving anybody this. But by when I've just had a little crumb I've said they can have the rest back. It's horrible isn't it. Mm. . It's like sawdust. yesterday I haven't for four for five years. Oh. They're getting married next year but they're not having any children for three years. Oh no. They won't have any at all if if they're sensible. But she doesn't want to say that she's not having any for five year. Cos she'll look silly if she's having one in nine months. Has she told you about Mandy? Yeah. Mm. like M like Molly John's wife, she weren't having any and then she had one and she she weren't having a any more and then another Aye last night Well I'm gonna tell you. Last night I j well David come round in afternoon and he l he'd got some tapes . So he says will you go and pick 'em up dad. So I says, aye I mean fair enough. So this one, wait at bus, she says. Well I'd just got there, it was just between quarter past and ten past and twelve were there. Well I missed it. So I'm stood standing it were twenty five to to seven before I m before I left Dock. I got five hundred, gets up to top of 's stepped off, who should be at bus stop, our Angela. What you doing here? Oh there's no meeting, I'm going up to Mandy's. Oh I says, right fair enough. No they . and walked off. Anyway she's shouting away, Dad dad dad. So I says, what? She says, hang on, I said why? I'll come with you, I said, I thought you were away to Mandy's. No I'll come with you, so she wents into town with me. And this were what would it be, about twenty to seven. . Yes it would be something like that. Yeah, so I said, I thought you were going to Mandy's. I said, anyway I said, I thought you'd fallen out with Mandy. Oh yeah, she says, but erm w w I've no sympathy. we're back friends. I says, Aye, I says, well you needn't bother fetching her to our house. to do with you. Aye, she says she were doing. Well she can't be much cop if she'd open her legs to a first date to a Dutch s sailor. That's all I've got to say. So anyway she er she got in the house and she never went out again Did she not go then? No. Oh well I said to her She said she'll see you tonight at . I said to her, Angela I said, don't you pushing your nose in asking you to adopt it. And you'll be saying yeah. No I mean she knows right from wrong she's no business to have one there has she. Well I knew where she were heading that night that day she came to our house . I mean she's only seventeen. And she were on her about and sailors and what have you and I thought, aye, I'll know where you'll end up lady and she has. I've no sympathy. no. No. No sympathy for anybody like that, they know what they're doing. They're not much cop when they can open their legs like that. And I really got angry with our Angela. I said, I don't know what you're bothering for. I said by heck you've some good friends you have. I lost me rag didn't I. Well I says to her, the way she slagged you off, I said,nowt to do with you. Ah well she says, I'm not like that dad, I can't do that to her. Well please yourself that's vicarious that's it is Yeah . But you see, as I I said to her I said, no Angela it's alright is that I said, but I said No we tried to talk her out of. she had no business to do it, she knew what she were doing and they had no business to do it. It's like abortion. Nobody saying oh what have I to do if I want an abortion. You don't have to have an abortion, there shouldn't be one there to have an abortion for should there. No. No. Anyway. get on her high horse over abortion. Oh aye. I mean be thankful she's not like that. I don't like abortions but to me it depends on the circumstances. Like an ordinary married woman or something like that, if it's a matter of life and death. No Cos there are cases aren't there where a like that and the think they're being clever. Well let them get on with it. But if there weren't any money for 'em . One parent families, there shouldn't be any one parent families. . Yes. . No. Well alright then. It won' be long before it finishes it's only Ee I tell you what Get a get a paper and write what you say most. I said what would be. First thing in the morning you say, Ooh, don't you? When you're getting slowly getting out of bed. Ooh and then you say, Oh dear oh dear. Ooh oh dearie me. And then I stand by his bed trying to crack me ankles you know I'm going Oh dear. on the wall with . She knows. And then I'm hobbling along into the bathroom. oh oh dear. oh yes. Aye yet. I should get a cup of tea now shouldn't I. It's usually me that does it. now. Aye. You get your Arthur first before you start cup of tea every morning. He does. Don't you. No. Yes you do. how he can sit there and say no. Get your teas made he doesn't get tea he gets coffee he likes coffee . Well you can put coffee in. And then er Just the same. I give him coffee. And then . Oh it got kicked into touch did that cos it too loud. Well. . That goblin. The goblin when it's ready. No it buzzes while it's on. Does it heck. Well not till it starts to do. going round when its going round. getting rid of this thing I'm not having this. Does it heck. wrong with it then. I gave it to Angela. Well there's something wrong with it them till it's running out. And then it switches off. She says it's a start she say, our teasmade and our other coffee maker with the mug. Mm. Well . And she's a she's a Jug kettle. jug kettle. Aye, she thought she hadn't got it, I says Angela I'm sure it's I'm sure your nan's got a kettle for you. Of course she has. And er and she's still got that crystal dish. Aye and Auntie Auntie Elsie's got er She said she gave me three mugs Mm. and four. So she says, er one's for Angela and one's for you. So I I said, right. Oh this . . . . And er well she gave us some towels . And she gave us these so I said, well I've given her towels, wait and give it her for next . Whatever comes on. . So she says, Right well do as you like, she says, er but there's a four and there's a three, I couldn't get two fours, so I said right. So I thought, well if they get three, that's better than none, but I'll keep the four cos there's always somebody coming here you know. And er but then I thought, no I'll give her the four . But I I'd said to Angela there were some a while back but I'd not sh shown them her. So I says, oh I says,saying what they were and she said, oh, she said, and I've got some mugs Auntie Elsie bought you and a bit after and she said,she said, there's them four mugs for Angela. as if I was stealing a mug you know. I could have cracked her. But oh she's as excited as anybody isn't she. She says she has a carrier like a like a a Christmas parcel won't it . She's getting a a carrier and putting things in for her. you don't think you want a dishcloth and you don't think you want a pan scrubber, you don't think you want which you don't I told her to get But she said set of saucepans. I mean er what else is there, oh don't just think about she says . . You're always afraid that somebody buys the same presents. Well what's it matter, they don't eat anything. Well we told her yesterday quite as young as that er you know but I mean er then as I got older I d I did live with me grandmother. When? For a bit. Wh at what age? Er ooh I figure I'd only be quite young perhaps might be about five. I can just remember m I can just picture my grandma she was. And I can just remember where she lived. I know it went up two steps. Of course and then she dies and erm I went back to me own mother you see. Why why did you with your grandmother ? I don't know my grandmother must have took to me. And er and then er of course I went back to me mother after me grandmother died, I went to me mother and er mind you when I was th young there was a lot of poverty about you know there was er no security pay and no er and you couldn't get any money from anywhere or anything like that you know and er so it used to er had to do the best you can. Me dad used to do anything kind you know or work. To well they used to call what they call them a labour man you know he'd do any sort of work. Do you mean that he didn't have a permanent job ? no he didn't have a permanent one, no not for a bit. Not for quite a while. And then erm then when er once when I was only little there was a pit strike on I think I'd only be about seven, somewhere there. And you was allowed to go and get the coal from the pit siding. Like there such as housewives have always got no coal. Of course there was no gas fires about then. no gas fires. You used to have to cook everything on your fire. You had to cook everything? On your fire. Yes there used to be a oven one side, a boiler on other and er your fire in the middle and the fire used to have er a a thing what used to come down, and you used to stand your kettle on there to boil. Or you used to stand your saucepans on there to boil. And then when you was boiling your potatoes or vegetables you you used to have tho th the iron saucepans in them days. And you used to be ab well you used to be able to over the flames of the fire on one side, and then er a saucepan on the other on the in one side with your vegetables in one side, with your potatoes in and then you used to have your oven with a for your meat. There used to be two shelves in the oven. Oh I see. And on that side, what we fireplace it used to be what we used to call a boiler, you used to fill it with water and it used to the fire used to heat it for you to take it we used to call what we used to call ladle it out into a a bowl to wash your pots with or wash your floor with or anything with. So you had to scoop it out into Yes well you used to scoop your water out with what you used to call a ladle in them days. S and er and then of course when you'd got your so much water out again you used to go and fill it up again. Fill your fill your boiler up again. Oh it used to last all day. You know and then er and then er and we'd got no gas in when I was quite little. There was no gas. You used to use oil lamps. Paraffin lamps. I've seen my mother stand them on the table, middle of the table you know, the oil lamps. And then I've seen t er me mother once had er oil lamp from the ceiling and it was round and the oil lamp used to stand in the middle. And the surround used to have nice fancy work round you know to make it so it wouldn't stand on the table cos me mother bought one of those because it used to be a bit dangerous on the table if you knocked it you see and What with the children? Er yes if you know if knocked the table any time they fall over, liable to set fire you see with the paraffin and that. And you used to have what they call a wick in it you know to light it and turn it down at night time and blow it out down the . And then in the streets, there was no electric lights in the street, they all used to be gas. And er a gent used to have er a gentleman going round with a great long stick. And er just pulling the chain in the thing what er like a big white globe they used to be. Stand high up and big white globe, and the used to little got a little door. He used to lift this door up with his stick and just put it inside and light it. And then er in the morning part, he'd come and turn them all out. That's how it was in them days. Can you tell me something about, can you describe the house where you lived? How how many rooms did they have? Oh we used to er there used to be er er two rooms downstairs and then there used to be what you used to call er the attic they used to call them in them days. Er go up another flight of stairs to another room. They used call the it used to be called the attic you see in them days. And er you used to have erm lot of old houses now. They used to have er a a what you call a front room, and then we used to call it the kitchen and then the other place where you wash your pots and the sink in and everything in, it used to be called the scullery in them days. And erm some houses used to some houses used to go up some steps and two steps and The one where I used to be and you went you used to go up two steps. And er and then there used to be some houses what er we didn't live in one of them but there used to be a lot of houses what used to be railings round, and there used to be steps and you'd go down the steps, into the And they used to c they used to live downstairs and then well of course when you're in the house in the side the room they used to have another flight of steps to come upstairs to a l a front room or a lounge or whatever you mind to call it. All them sort of houses in them days. What would be downstairs then? Pardon? It used to er be same as ordinary room you know it people used to The kitchen? was it? live in it. Yes. Oh they used to be ever so funny houses you know and in them days and The er you never used to see in the oh a lot of houses and you never used to see big windows like these. They used to have big windows, but they used to a all be them there little tiny ones like that. You'd got to clean and then er Can you can you remember your mother doing the housework? Yes. Yes Well sort of telling you that. She used to mind you in them days you there was no er fitted carpets on your floor. You used to have to scrub them. And er just the same as your table there was no er polish top tables when I was little. You used to have to scrub them. Scrub them white. And they were like that and then of course they used to be er no washing machines you used to be at these here tubs. And there used to be a rub board. You used to have to rub all your clothes and on this rub board or get a little brush and and scrub the s collar and your cuffs and then in the salt water and get all them in and then you used to have to ponch them with a ponch or a dolly peg, what used to go round like that you see. And there used to be all them sort of things. Then me mother used to do lace work. Turn a shilling or two what they call lace work. They used to In the lace market there used to be factories what used to make lace er and er a lady used to er go and take fetch so much lace out and she used to give it out to people what wanted to do it. They used to call it drawing or clipping and scalloping you see. And er lace what's got all the scallops round, well you used to have to do that. And then they used to well it used to be ever so long, yards and yards of it and then we used to what they call drawing. Th drawing you see there used to perhaps be some like that there wide and then the er then that narrow well you'd got to divide them by what they call drawing. It's just a thread and draw it out and then it they used to come apart. I used to sit and help me mother to do it. And How how much time would she spend on this work ? Oh it er oh it used to take it all depends how much they gave her to do you see. And of course then when she had done it they used to fold it up they used to just get it then and go like that you know, and just fold it up and then when it was done all done you see, they'd take it back to this here lady and then of course they used to pay you for it. It might be two or three shillings perhaps five shillings, it all depends how much your you got done. But would she say spend about two hours doing it? Ooh yes Mhm. Yes oh aye sometimes two hours or s or sometimes sit all afternoon and you know and and er a l a lot. Well all that and then there used to be what they used call er net mending but my mother used to do that. She made these er mosquito nets, people used to fetch them out and mend them. And then take them back again. But my mother never done that. Why Well cos she d she couldn't do it. Used to have to be very rather experienced in them days to do this here net mending. Mosquito net mending you know we used to do a lot in Nottingham. Of course then there's me mother,as we got older older me mother used to work at er what they used to call dressing rooms. They used to do a lot of these er mosquito nets. And li you know, er clean them and starch them and stretch them on frames and Have you ever been in a dressing room? No. Can you Well you just ought to. There's a it's a great long room then a at the top here they call what they call fans. big swing wide things used to go round when they was going. Well then there used to be frames Ooh er as long as a street the room used to be. Well when they've got this here lace, there used to be all pins at the side of this er of these er frames. And then er when These would be made of wood, would they? No they was made of steel. Ah. They used to be sharp if you wasn't careful. Didn't know how to do them. And they used to erm er get this er net or lace right what they were gonna what they after it'd been starched and everything. And they used to have to put it like that on these er pins all the way down. And then then after that, the overlooker what was there used to say, Well you you pull frame out so many pegs you see, and it used to pull out, stretch this here lace, and pull out and then they used to dowels at the bottom used to plug in to stop the frames from going back. And then they used to put this er these er wafters on you see to dry. This er lace. Well and then when it was dry, the at the ends there there used to be another long of pins that road to put the ends on. Well and then there used to be a stripper it's a a long thing like that and there and er you'd put it on. There used to be one woman one end and one woman the other, with something like something similar to the shape as a ladder. And er get and then strip this er at the side, cos a girl used to be at the front to strip all this here lace of these here pins. Then thes they used a pole this er and you used to have to behind stripping all these off lace off the pins while these here ladies was folding this er net up. On these here ladders. Like a same shape as a ladder I used to say they was . Mm. And er that's and then of course and then of course in the other place where they used to do it, they used to just pull these ladders out and these there nets was all folded up and everything ready to to do away abroad or anywhere you know. Which which firm was this? Can you remember the name? Well there used to be a dressing rooms on erm on Road there. Er now what was the dressing rooms called? And then then there used to be on Boulevard. You know where that there where they're building now? Before it got burnt and that there used to be a dressing rooms there. As well I forget the names. How many hour How long would your mother work there? Ooh she worked there for years me mother did. But but how many hours a day did she work there ? Well in them days you used to have to er work for eight till six or anything like that you see same as when I was wo first went to work. Our time was eight till six. And then Saturday mornings eight till twelve. They never used to call it overtime, that was your proper weeks work. From Monday to Saturday. There was n no Saturdays knocking off then. And you and you used to get the same money. When I went first went to work at a laundry. I used to work there eight till six and er I got four and six a week. Four and six when I went down Nottingham to work, at the box place, Henry 's I got seven and six a week. And I got paid one and six some weeks for a weekly ticket. In them days mother used to give me sixpence to spend and Mind you you could do a lot with that sixpence. We used to go to pictures. Used to get in pictures for thruppence, tuppence and thruppence. Which picture house was that? And there used to be two on the Road, one used to be called Palladium and one used to be called the Palace. They all pulled down and superma er shops built there now. But this was when you moved to wasn't it ? Yes. Can can we go back again to when you lived at the other place. At Nottingham? In in Nottingham. Can you can you can you remember the area where you lived. Can you describe Oh it were there many shops there? Oh yes there was a lot of shops round there. There was a a lot of shops on and then as across the road there used to be a Road and there used to be a lot of shops there. There used to be er a fish shop and er that used to be called 's that fish shop did. You used to go and get a penn'orth of chips and a penny fish. And you could go and get er a get a good dinner for anybody w yeah when they was poor if they had fish and chips for their dinner you see it never used to cost them all that much for for a dinner. And of course the tram cars used to run along there. And then where the ice rink is, there used to be a lot of houses and shops round there. you see then they pulled them all down and built the ice rink there. And then er where the facing the ice rink there used to be a pub called the cricketers, well that's still there. Well there used to be a lot of shops there. When there used to be all houses round there, there used to be a fish shop there as well. And then there used to be erm Mrs her name was, used to keep her little shop at bottom of the yard. And you used to go there and we used to have er anybody mashing the tea what they used to call it. She used to th she used to sell it and er hap'orth of milk for a ha'penny. Half a cupful you used to get for a ha'penny. You see round the factories round there. And er lot of shops there. And and then what we used to call . There was a little post office there and there used to be some shop on there. There was erm Mrs 's was on . And er she used to sell corned beef and er pickled onions or anything like that for people what was working round there what couldn't get home for dinner. If they didn't bring any dinner of their own. You see. And er then er then at the at bottom there used to be er a clothes shop. Well it used to be a clothes shop but what you used to call a pawn shop in them days as well. At bottom of er . And er Did did many people take stuff to to the Pardon? Did many people take stuff to the pawn shop ? Yes used to be ever such a lot. Ever such a lot of people. Perhaps you used to go and pawn the husbands suits or a anything like that till the following Saturday or Friday and fetch them out you see, and that cos there was very for people in them days, I mean they didn't get a deal of help from anywhere. And then they they used to pape lads going round selling papers you know the newspapers with no shoes and stockings on the feet. They used to be nice little lads and all going round and quiet and the they used to then the tram cars used to lo run along Road. And er and and er through the meadows there. Down through Midland Station and all down there. And it all used to leave to Trent Bridge. And then er I were telling you about the er where the marshes wasn't I. Where there used to be a great big island. Ooh it were ever such a big island there was. With a little wall round and on this island there used to be a lot of houses on and they used to be all what they call alms hous old people lived in them and that. And then er when then as far as where is there used to be erm a fountain. A water fountain and it used to have little cups all the way round as you could go and have a drink. Out of. And then er then I mean er, wasn't so big then as it is now. It and they never used to sell nothing over sixpence. And then when first opened, they never used to sell anything over five shillings. They used to be tea services, carpets, nice odd carpets and mirrors and dolls and everything. You well you used to get a lovely doll for one and eleven in the old money. Beautiful doll. And then you know where the foun the water fountain was where the marsh is, there used to every weekend there used to be a er a chip and fish stall there w and hot peas. There used to have people used to all go and get some hot peas and the fish and chips and eat them you know, as they was going home and and all like that. Was this on a Saturday did you say ? Oh yes. Fridays and Saturdays there's always always one there every week. And then there was with er where Saint Peter's church is, where is now,th there used to be a Punch and Judy show there t every week as well. And th you used kiddies used to go round there, looking at them. And then just same as these barrel organs. They used to all walk round. They didn't only stop in one place. They'd perhaps go round streets, different streets playing them and then they'd er they'd go up and play them up there you know, and and that What would they do would they s stand on a corner or or Yeah stand yeah stand anywhere and fellow with his er little monkey on and children as you know asking the gentleman all sorts of questions about his monkey, you know, and the monkey'd all dance all sorts of tricks on it you know and the kiddies used to laugh and that. And then er then where Market is where Market is there used to be er er there's a school there I don't know I think it's still there. used to be called a ragged school. I don't know why. But it used to be called a ragged school. Well it used to be er one road used to be called Meadow Flats, and then you go a little way down another road and it used to be called the bottoms. One used to be called the bottoms and one used to be called the Meadow Flats and yet they both led to the same place. You could go right along there and th and it'd land you right into the Victoria nearly. Well it used to be the Victoria Station in them days then before it come Victoria Centre. And er and it all and you used to when our Queen's grandfather was crowned king in nineteen hundred and ten, ooh they trimmed it up beautiful. All Nottingham was beautiful and along there'd got great big flags and they'd trimmed all Christmas they'd they'd sewed all Christmas things on them. Oh of course down there the bottom and that there used to be a lot of erm there used to be some lodging houses what they call lodging houses for people what's got nowhere to go you know, you used to sleep and. And it's just the same where the er marsh is now. But it used to be called Broadmarsh. Well along Broadmarsh there used to be er a lodging house there. And it used to be called 's N's lodging house. There through Broadmarsh. Cos there used to be a lot of houses under the shops along there as well. And it used to lead you up to what they called Hill, the steps, they're still there. And you can cut through there now. And er well you go further through and you can go to the erm And the the Narrowmarsh it was narrow and all, you could shake hands with one another o off the but it now is all council houses is built down there now where they only used to be ordinary little houses. Used to be ever so narrow. Called it narro and that's reason they called it Narrowmarsh. The Where there just houses there then? Just houses? Yes lots of nice houses down there. There used to be a lot of nice shops as you went through Broadmarsh as well. And er then er these two erm er Then when we used to when we was the young you used to be able to go down to Skeggie for a day on train for two and six. To go to Skeggie. Or Cleethorpes and that for the day. Your parents would take you and Mm. Er yes parents'd take you. Yeah yes the we went to we used to go down there for a day to Skeggie. And er fare's two and six for the day's trip. Er and then I'll tell you then when was in the er on Square and of course this council house as what this council house what's built now, it wasn't there then,it used to be different council house, there used to be a great big archway. And underneath this archway you used to have meat stalls and fish stalls and it used to be called the shambles. And then on the other side there used to be what they called the market. Had all these er stalls it you know er What did they sell? Oh they used to all different stalls used to sell One stall they used to sell fruit and and that and then perhaps another stall they'd sell pots and er and all like that all down on them stalls. It used to be like just like a the market as in er what's in the Victoria but it was more on open air what they call it in them days. On there. Did they have any street entertainers around the market ? Oh there used to be a lot of s er entertainment coming round the streets there used to be er gentlemen as coming round singing. And er there used to be these er like Scotch people you know, with kilts, with swords and put them on the floor and dance round the swords and. All like that and. And then there used to be the Hippodrome and the Empire. That used to be all stage you know not pictures then it used to be all stage. Well me father used to take us there. And er and then there used to be er Can you remember what you went to see? Yeah I well I I've seen . And I've seen Harry Lloyd and er Houdini what they call him you know, where he used to be all strapped in chains and get out of tanks and that. Oh I've seen I've seen all them. And then of course and then when we used to go to pictures in afternoon Saturday afternoons when we was little. It only used to be a penny. And they used to er have er a film Of course they used to be silent films and then er er had er and there used to be what they call interval. And they used to stage, well when we used to go for a penny the stage, they used to perhaps have competitions for the childrens what used to want to go on. Perhaps there used to be er erm a lot of hot cross er buns hanging down. And the children's used to be tied behind their back and them what er eat this er cross bun first, used to get a prize. And er and of course that was interval and then er and they used to come and sit down and they used to show you another film. Perhaps it might be Charlie Chaplin, a bit of a comic one or or summat like that and er What sort of prizes would the children get ? Ooh they sometimes used to get books or er they used to get some nice prizes you know, and books and er and that and er and when I was little I once went on stage for a in a skipping competition. And er I won I won a book called Kathleen's Victory. I can always remember that yeah, I won a book called And then er when we came out pictures on Saturday afternoon, there always used to be a gentleman there and he'd had a great big basket and he'd like he'd have a bag of sweets and oranges in these er basket and they used to give the children a bag of sweet and orange and they came out and see pictures for a penny. You used to get them free? You used to get them free. Yes. So er they wouldn't do that in our days would they? And we used to follow serials up in the er on Saturday afternoons you know. There used to be some nice serials for They used to be thrilling you know, er I can remember I wish they'd show them now They used to be what we used to call, The voice on the wire and then there was another serial called, Peggo the Ring. And er and then there was another voice voice called another film called, The er The Second Black Pearl, or some and them and there was the Dagger and These were all se And the grey ghost and all them we saw in serials and of course we used to follow them up go every Saturday afternoon and follow these serials up. For a penny we used to always go to pictures Saturday afternoon when we was little. What would you do Saturday morning when you were little? Well we used to er well really we never used to do anything kind of perhaps er go out and play or anything like that. Of course as we got older, me dad used to make us helpers mothers you know. We always used to As we got older we all had a little job to do. Such as what? What sort of job ? Er like such as er like er at er night time before we went, we always used to I had to go to bed early. And when we went to bed early we used to we One used to have to fill the kettle, and then the other one used to have to set the table for next morning for next morning. And er well perhaps there was one that used to do anything cos she was perhaps too young. But erm And then we weren't allowed to stay up. Not till we got older. Might be about When we start work we could stay up a little bit later. But on a Saturday nights we used to stay up when we was young. So how late did you stay up till ? Well perhaps about er ten o'clock or something because what er me father used to do. Me mother er and me father they er me mother used to go to picture and then er when the cur and then me me dad didn't like pictures so he used to always meet me mother outside and then they'd perhaps go and have a little drink together and a walk. Well me dad'd never let us stand outside pubs or anywhere you know. Wouldn't let us stand outside anywhere. So we used to go to pictures at Saturday nights. Me dad'd take us to pictures. He didn't used to come in with us but he'd take us. And we'd sit there on er a and then when it was time to come home, when me father used perhaps might be about er nine o'clock or half past, he used to come and the gentleman always used to him. Mr always used to know me dad, he used to say, Are you come for the childrens? And he says, Yes. And me dad used to say, Come on me ducks, just like that and we used to come out with him. And there used to be a sweet shop on the High Road er next to 's and er me dad'd call in He used to keep open till late then. Me dad'd call in there and buy some sweets. And he'd share them between us when we got home. But didn't to eat any that night, we'd got to save them till next day. And we'd all go to bed. And would your mother be there as well? Yes me mother'd be there yes. Oh yeah. No me mother she she did work hard well we all had to do in them days. And of course and then when we got older, when we got in us teens, we used to have to help us mother with the cleaning. You see, when we was at home. One'd have to do the bedrooms, to clean the bedrooms. And ano and the other one'd have to do the stairs. But that one as done the stairs had have to do the bedrooms the other week. And the other one'd do the stairs that week. We used to change it like that. Did you just help out on a Saturday or And er we used to all do that and then in the week in the weekday Oh only during the week. at nighttime. How many children were there? Oh there was er three three daughters. Three where there used to be me,or Mary and er May, she was the youngest, she was only a baby May and Miss er May was cos she was the youngest. But I had two brothers. Of course they didn't used to do anything. No. They didn't do any housework? No they didn't do any housework. Only the girls. And then on a Sunday morning, we used to erm get up and we used to have to do the cleaning between us. All as me mother's got to do that day was the dinners. In the morning part. And then in the afternoon we'd er We used to get ready and we used to go anywhere where we like you know, as long ann er back for tea. I used to there used to be me and my sister. We er always used to stick together. She's the not a dearly difference between us. There was me and er s and m me sister Mary. She was about er only fifteen months difference between us. What she was older than you?oh you're the eldest? No I'm older. Yes I shall be eighty one next month. And she'll as be er she'd be er about er seventy seventy nine she would be. Seven between seventy nine and eighty she'd be. And er we always used to pal out together. And people used to say, Oh you're not sisters. You don't see sisters palling out together. Said, Well we doesn't when we're one another. Did you used to enjoy one another 's company? You got on well together? Pa Yes yes yeah. And we have done all us lives. And then we she got married we still kept in touch with one another and I got married and we didn't live far from one another. We lived in the same street. But she lived higher up and I lived lower down. And I used to er very often go up to her house and she'd come down to my house and er. And that and then we'd erm we'd have cups of tea and that. And then er then when her husband died, he er we went out We used to go out together cos me husband never went out much. And er we used to go on the High Road together, shopping together, And perhaps Sunday afternoons she'd say, Oh come on Ada let's have a ride down Nottingham. I said well it's best place to go on Sunday afternoons, we don't spend any money. We'll go and have a cup of coffee, tea something like that you see. Always go and have a cup of tea. And then er and then of course when the council houses pulled dow er when the council pulled the down again, there was these houses you see. We was told to get a mortgage and that of course she she was on her own. Cos her sons had got married and she lived in a little bu flat, bungalow rather. And er and we still used to meet. We used to meet Su Monday afternoon. And we used to meet Tuesday. And then someti we meet Thursday and every Saturday afternoon we used to meet. We used to go walk round and shopping and then we'd go and have a cup of coffee and then we'd both catch a bus. I'd catch one down here, she'd catch her's up home. And er of course and then she took ill and died. She's only been dead s er six year. Ca can I go back a bit to to your childhood. Oh to me chi A A and your and your schooldays. Oh me schoold Oh well there was er Can you remember any games that you played as a child? Oh yes there used to be what they used to called er we used to call Ticky. You know scatter run and tic one another you know, and and then you used to we used to play er diabolo what you used to call them have you ever seen them. There us used to be two sticks. And there used to be like a big bobbin there and you to and they used to go like that and chuck it up and try and catch it you know, and And we used to play shuttlecock and battledore. What's that. Why er pardon why it was er You know like these tennis rackets? Yes. They're like that, and then they've got a shuttlecock the shuttlecock used to er have er like a a cork thing and then there used to be feathers round. And perhaps a little bell in the middle. And you used to er get it on this here one, chuck it up and ca keep catching it. And we used to have what they call er a stick and goos it used to I remember we used to have sti what you call stick and goos It was like a great long thing like that and you used to have a stick and it used to be on the floor and you just tap it and and hit it like that and it goes Erm there's er Where wo where would you play these games? Oh we used to play them in the streets or anywhere like that. Yes. you know we never The children wasn't any any trouble. No they play all these these play these er and everything. They used to These they used to be a round used to be round you know and not very used to hit them as you hit them with a stick you see, they used to wheel wheel round and round . Oh like a like a loop er Yeah. a round Then we then of course then used to be this er game skipping. Two one girl one end one girl another you know, turning the rope and you skipping in the middle and counting Did you sort of sing any songs or anything when you were skipping ? Ooh yeah. Ooh well they used to well they didn't used to sing a lot of songs but er they used to do a lot of you know playing about and perhaps and then they'd perhaps have a ball. You see. You'd s er a lot of them you'd sta you'd stand up against a wall and then they say, Goaler throw a ball. and you'd just hit it like that and as you hit, you'd got to run and come back again, before she got the ball to t er tap you on er you know, with the ball. And er then you'd got to be on then. Oh we used to oh play all sorts of things like that. When we was young. Whe when you were didn't it happen Mrs that when you were playing in the street one day, you were knocked over by a tram ? Yes well well I were I think I was running after me mother more than anything. Cos I was on me own and er I me ma I think me mother had gone of an errand and of course I run after her. And it it was on . First car that ever run along and it was facing a a chemist what they call . Any old people knows the chemists and it was ge there used to be a park at the side on it and all. Well I got erm and them boards underneath there's some boards underneath the tram car there was, and they s picked me up you see they so when er there was a crowd outside the chemist, I was in somebody took me inside. I can't remember who took me inside. And then er somebody told me mother and of course me mother come in then, And a policeman was there. And of course this policeman used to come and see me ever so often, but me mother never saw his co-operation. No. And er then of course when I got better It hit me all on the head and that well Then er when I went back to school they found out as I couldn't see the board properly. So the sent me to the er eye infirmary and of course the eye infirmary sent me to the blind school. And there used to be a lady named Mrs , used to come and take us. And er the corporation used to give her so many tickets to last her the week. And of course we used to have to go on tram cars to the school and Road. Was this you and and some other children that she took ? Yes. Yes there used to be her son, and there used to be me, and there used to be a a girl name Edith right, and there used to be her sister, Ethel right, and then there used to be another young girl named Clara . And then she used to take all those together and she used to have to give the conductor so many tickets each time she went. And then er we used to take us dinners to school erm whatever your mother had got to give you. If you took eggs there used to always be a lady there at dinner time what used to come round and ask you what you'd got for dinner, and then if you'd got eggs, she used to write your name on the eggs and do them for you. Oh what, and boil them? Yes. Oh. Boil them. Or if your mother had got a say she made you a meat and tater pie in a little dish, if you took this little dish with you, the lady used to er warm it up for you. They used the oven there and we used to sit and the you see. And er there was only three classes, there was er I can remember two teachers' names. There was er one named Miss , and the other one was named Mr . And er er and he was alive till not many years ago. And er and of course We've been thinking over past weeks of the little account that we have in the old testament of the life of Ruth. We've seen how she comes into the family first of all, gets er into contact with God's people. Strange way, almost a devious in some senses. See in the even out of failure, out of sin God works out his purposes. Which is a good thing because that's what he's done in our lives. That's what he's done in the life of the human race. Out of failure he's worked out his purpose. Adam sins. Seems the whole thing is gone, what is God gonna do? Destroy the lot! Cast it away from him. But God doesn't do that he brings about a programme of redemption and restoration. And one hymn writer puts it, he says Eden's painful memories tell of blessings lost twas there that fell the beauteous crown I wore, but calvary's glorious victory, a richer crown has won for me. And this is what God has done. He hasn't redeemed and restored back to what we were, but he's gone way, way beyond that, in making us his children and bringing us into a very special relationship with himself. And so we've seen how Ruth becomes involved with God's people. And she makes way back with her mother-in-law Naomi, to Bethlehem. We've seen how God provides for her, and brings again, brings her into contact with Boaz. We're coming this morning, to to the climax of th , of this whole little narrative that we have, there in that book of Ruth. The harvest has been gathered in. There's much rejoicing in Bethlehem! It's been a bumper harvest. And among all the workers there's gonna be that sense of a, a job well done. Everything is safe and secure now. There's enough food and to spare for the coming year. A satisfaction that as a community they've worked together to bring this about. You see, it wasn't everybody doing their own thing. But there they were working together as a community, there in the great communal fields, where everybody had their own plot, but working together. And Ruth and Naomi who have returned. They're able to share in the joys, they consider the great things that's happened to them. And on the night of the final reaping, there's a great harvest supper, after which the men would stay guard around the great heaps of grain which were ready to winnowed early the following morning. And for, Ruth it's gonna be a momentous night. It's gonna be the night, it's gonna be, yet another turning point in her life. She's, because she's gonna meet personally, come into contact in a far greater wa sense with a man who is going to redeem her. You see, under the old law when a married man without a family his brother was to take on the widow and raise up a family in the name and in the memory of his brother. And that was the responsibility of the first born. You remember, er, that incident in the life of Jesus when, they came to try and catch Jesus out and they use this very illustration, they said somebody's died and he's got no family, and his brother , he married his sister-in-law, and he died, no children! And then somebody else married her! And so it went on down till all the brothers in the family had married this lady and there was still no children, and then the er, they were posing the trick question to Jesus, well what's gonna happen in the resurrection? So you see it was, it was something the then as a nation, it wasn't just a, a bygone law that had been given and wasn't used, it was something that was carried out on a fa , on a regular basis. And this brother who married his late brother's wife he would also take over all that belonged to her, because, you know, all that, it was his dead brother's, he would take it all over, it would become his the land, the business the property, the mortgage, the debts they would all become the brother who now marries the th th the widow. And his aim in doing that would be to be res , fully restore all that had been his brother's, for his brother's family. It was called the right to redeem. Now, if it was impossible for any reason for the next of kin, the oldest brother to do it, then it would go down to the second or on down the line, whoever was the nearest to become the kinsman redeemer. We saw, was it last week, at our harvest festivals, we looked at the harvest time there, how God had led Ruth into contact, and into the field of Boaz, a man of great wealth! A man who also honoured God, but more important than that he was a near kinsman of Ruth, or ra or rather Naomi rather, and there also of Ruth because of Ruth's late husband. And, whilst we don't get the sense in,i as we read it in our English version, if you were reading it, evidently, in a Hebrew version, the ch , second chapter, you would find that there are four different words used in the Hebrew language to describe the relationship that Boaz had with Ruth. There was, first of all, in verse one, it's just talks, I say, in, in our bi , in our English bible depending which translation you've got, it most likely uses the word kinsman throughout. But in verse one, the word used there simply means a relative. Boaz was a relative of her husband, a man of great wealth. Now there's the introduction. He is just a relative. But as you go on into verse three, and it talks about this relationship again, er, it says he, she came to a field belonging to Boaz who was of the er family of Elimilech. It means he was one of the family. So you've got relatives that are there are, there are distant relative, they're still related to you, you wouldn't call them one of your family because th the relationship is so distant. But Boaz was not just a relation by marriage, but he was erm one of Elimelech's family. Further on down towards the end of the chapter, in verse twenty it says there, that this man is our relative, he is one of our closest relatives. And the word used there means, a very near kinsman. See the progression? A relative, one of the family, a very near kinsman. And also, in that we , in that verse the first use of the word relative is that very near kinsman, and the second use, right at the end, one of our closest relatives, it's the word that is used there that means the one who has the right to redeem. So Ruth, she's been led to one who was able to restore to her all that Elimelech had lost when he left Bethlehem. Everything that had been lost he was able to restore it to Ruth. The thing was though, that that claim could only be made by her. She would get nothing until she registers her claim. Now Ruth of course, she's a, she's a Moabite she's not a Jewess. She doesn't know all the Jewish laws, and she knows nothing about this when she comes to Bethlehem. But, she's counselled and advised by her mother-in-law, Naomi. And Naomi tells her what to do and the procedure to follow. She was a good Jewish mother, was Naomi. And you can imagine her, can't you telling Ruth just what to do, and how to go about doing it? The inheritance, her son's and her husband's inheritance it's gone! It's lost! And here she's telling Ruth, now what you've gotta do, she's she's got him, she's got her introduced to Boaz and she tells him it's a strange custom, one that's perhaps even stranger in our eyes today but there er after the party, the great harvest supper she's,the the they lie down in the barn together, they all just, they're tired it's, it's, the party's gone on into the wee hours of the morning, and there they just, they don't bother going home, they lie down there in the barn together all of them and she says to Ruth what you must do according to the custom is, you go and you lie at the feet of Boaz and wait, just wait, and wait for him to respond to you. And there she lies down discreetly at his feet,se not knowing what's gonna happen. And in the middle of the night Boaz wakes up and he turns and he startled to find this woman, lying at his feet and he says, who are you? And Ruth, she'd been primed well what to say she doesn't say a lot, but she says the right things. She says, I am Ruth, your very near relative. But what on earth is Boaz gonna do? So what! That could have been his response. What is his response gonna be? And so, she waits eagerly to hear, is she gonna be rebuffed or is she gonna be accepted? Her whole future depends on the next few moments! But then, Boaz who it, said he was honourable man, he replies, very positively he says may you be blessed by the Lord. I know you're a good woman, so don't be afraid, and I will do for you, and I will do all for you that you ask. Said, I'll redeem you. You see, that's what she, she goes you're a near relative, you're a kinsman, you're a kinsman redeemer, you can bring the restoration of our property. And he says, I'll do it for you, but there's a problem. But leave it with me. And the problem was very simple, there was a nearer kinsman. There was somebody else higher up the line than Boaz and he must first be given the opportunity to redeem Ruth. But if he's not gonna be willing, then Boaz it's his responsibility. And hurrying along on this account that we have here, Ruth, the next morning, she's given a gift by Boaz a a a, a gift of er, to to seal what has been said. A pledge that he would certainly not rest until he had fulfilled his responsibility. And Ruth, then quietly returns to Naomi there at first light, excitedly telling her of all that has been happening. And the next morning when they get up Ruth makes his way into the town, and he goes to where all the, the men sit and they talk, the city gate, and there he he searches out the nearer relative of Ruth's. And he gives him the option, he offers to him the the right to redeem. He said it's yours, and he spells out what it is. You know, on the surface it's not necessarily a good bargain. It's not necessarily a good deal. He's gonna be involved in a lot of expenses. Redemption was not a cheap process. It wasn't just something you did lightly, you had to weigh it all up and consider the cost of it. And so whilst Ruth and Naomi are resting and waiting back home Boaz is acting, and he sought out this man, he's determined now to see that Ruth and Naomi receive all that is there's by right. And so quickly he makes his way to the gate of the city as we've said, and he gets this man he sits down with the te with the te , with the ten elders who would be witnesses and the kinsman arrives. And it says in th , in, as you read through the record, as soon as he saw him he shouted with a shout that must have surprised the passers by, because , he hollered out to him he called out excitedly to him! And so this near kinsman comes and he listens quietly to what Boaz has to say. Ruth, a daughter of Naom , a daughter-in-law of Naomi the wife of Elimelech has returned. Her husband Elimelechis dead and the daughter's husband is dead. Naomi has no men in her family, her son's are all dead. There is the right to redeem her land, the property, the possessions that is hers and you as the nearest kinsman have that right to do so. Will you take it up? Will you redeem? And you can imagine the man as he listens, and he hears what is to put it crudely, on offer. There's advantages to be se , to be had certainly and at first he seems willing, the extra land would be an advantage. Well it will increase my land! It'll be easier to work, it's always easier to work more land than it is just a small plot of land. It will make me a man of of greater standing in the community, I'll be more respected, folk will have more deference towards me, I'll be a bigger land owner! But you know there's always two sides to every bargain isn't there? And the, whilst the one side was good there was the other side, and when he heard that the inheritance required that he marry Ruth, oh dear! It ceased to be such a good bargain. But, no Ruth, no land. It was as simple as that. And he says well I I'm sorry after considering it carefully I cannot go through with this transaction, I relinquish my right to redeem, lest I impair my own inheritance. That's the only reason he gives. Now it could possibly be that, he was already married, and would want the children from that marriage to receive all the land that he had, rather than it being spread out with with more children that Ruth was gonna have. It may well be that he considered that it was not the right thing for him to do, after all, he was a good Jew and why should he marry a Moabite. It wasn't the right thing to do. He may simply not have had enough money to take on the extra land and the work as required for it. Whatever the reason he has neither the spiritual character nor the material resources to redeem Ruth. And it seems that in this whole area of redemption there are three qualifications necessary for redeemer. First, the right to redeem on the ground of relationship, a stranger couldn't do it, it had to be a near kinsman. Second condition was, the willingness to redeem even to the point of sacrifice. And the third, the resources had to be there to redeem, there was a price to be paid. And we see in this little story something far, far greater than the redemption of Elimelech for Ruth and Naomi we see here a picture of your redemption and of my redemption and those three qualifications, how they are met. The right to redeem on the ground of relationship. I am his because he created me! I belong to him by the right of creation! He has the right to redeem me, because he made me! He's got the right to redeem you, because he has created you, he knew you before you were formed! Then the willingness to redeem even to the point of sacrifice. And oh, sacrifice he paid! As we're gonna be commemorating and celebrating in a few moments the sacrifice to the very point of giving his own life. We are redeemed not with silver and gold but with the precious blood of Christ. That's the price of redemption. That's the price our kinsman redeemer Jesus Christ had to pay! The price of his own blood, given himself, that is the price. And then the sor resources to redeem. There was a price to be paid, as we've seen, it was the price of himself. He gave himself. Couldn't buy our redemption. There would nobody else willing to redeem us, but he was willing to redeem us by giving himself that was the price he paid for your redemption, for my redemption. What a cost it was to him! And how Jesus Christ has fulfilled that price, that redemption cost. According to the law, going back to the narrative, the story of Ruth and Boaz according to the law, the widow she would remove the shoe of the kinsman who refused to redeem her and she would spit in his face because he had rejected, he had failed to fulfil his duty, his responsibility. In this story, however, there's no such shame because Ruth has not been rejected. The oldest, the first born if you like, the, the nearer one may have reje , may not have accepted the right to redeem her, but Ruth is not, has not been rejected because there is another kinsman waiting. And you could almost imagine Boaz hoping against hope that the other kinsman would turn down the offer and so he delighted when that happened. The shoe is removed however, as a testimony to the elders and witnesses that the near kinsman has refused his right to possess all that was Elimelech's. And Boaz is now free to fulfil all the conditions and to take Ruth as his wife. All his inheritance is gonna be restored. And in front of all the gathered company at the gate of the city he makes his declaration, he says I have bought all that belonged to Elimelech. I have belo , bought all that belonged to Mahlon. I have belonged, I have bought all that belonged to Chilion. I have bought Ruth to be my wife. He completely fulfilled all that was required of him. The law was satisfied to it's tiniest,mis , most minute detail. And in your redemption, and in my redemption Jesus Christ has satisfied the laws' tiniest demand. There on the cross he could say I've done it all! It is finished! I have redeemed you! I have bought you back! I have paid the price! You are mine! And God the father is satisfied. As he looks down and he sees it all, everything has been done. There is no area, there is no tiny minute detail of the law that has failed to be met with. God has been, the father's righteousness is totally satisfied. John the Baptist when he saw Jesus at the beginning of the earthly ministry of Jesus, he says behold the lamb of God who taketh away the sin of the world and on him was laid all of our sin all of our debt. You could argue we weren't a good bargain. We were nothing. We were just rebels. Sinners in rebellion against God! But he fil fulfils his responsibility in the right to redeem us. And he takes us, bad bargain that we are poor and miserable that we were, with nothing seemingly positive to offer, he takes us bag and baggage, he takes us with all our sin, with all our failure, with all our mistakes, he takes us with all that is,th th the clutters of our lives, he says you're mine now. I have redeemed you! I have bought you! You are my possession. I paid the price! My father's righteousness is satisfied. You belong to me. You are mine. And then you, going just one step further in the marriage relationship it's not just that he says I have taken you, and all that you have now is mine, I take your debt and I discharge it fully, your debt of holiness to God, your debt of righteousness to God, he says I take it and I pay that price in full! I discharge you, you are now free from it. It's not just a case of him taking us with all of what we had and were and us belonging to him, but he says i in taking you to myself, he says I give myself to you. You are mine, and I am yours. All that I have is yours! I've taken all that you've and to be honest there's not, there's not a, it's not worth a, it's not worth a light, it's you, I'm be getting rid of that straight away! We're clearing that out! I take all that you have and it's place and in it's place I give you all that I have and all that I am. That's the relationship. That's what Ruth the relationship that Ruth enters into with Boaz and that's the relationship that you and I have entered into with Jesus Christ he is our kinsman redeemer and he's rescued us he's taken us. Like Ruth, we were strangers, we were aliens, we were outside, we had nothing to say, well I've got some right, we had no right at all but he came and he took us and he brought us in, and he has made us, who were nothing, something. He has taken the off-scourings of this world, the apostle Paul said, those that were nothing, and he has made them into something. So what are this morning? Ruth was a foreigner, a Moabitess, a gentile! The off-scouring! Nobody would want anything to do with her! But oh, what a difference when she's marries Boaz What a difference then. Because she enters into all that Boaz has and all that he is. You and I were nothing. We're nothing, of ourselves we might have thought we had but it was of no value whatsoever, but he took us, he says, now you're something because you belong to me. Now you're precious! Now you're of value! Now you're of consequence! Because you belong to me. All that I have, and all that I am is now yours, I invest it in you, it is yours. Take it! Use it! Be part of it, enjoy it! Because I give it to you freely because you're mine you belong to me, I've redeemed you I've purchased you. What a transformation! And the name of Boaz becomes her name. She is no longer Ruth the Moabitess, she's Ruth, the wife of Boaz. He has given to us a new name we've take his name we belong to him. The country of Boaz becomes her country, she is no longer a foreigner here now she has a right to stay because of Boaz And we are citizens of a new country, of a new kingdom. The possessions of Boaz would be hers. And Jesus says, all that I have is yours. The servants of Boaz would be hers. The relationships of Boaz they're now hers. And so for us the relationships that, that he has, then become our relationships. His children become our brothers and sisters. We're part of his family. And so Ruth, the one who has gone out as a poor glean and walking behind the reapers, hoping they would treat her kindly. She is now joint heir with the owner of the fields. Something she could never have dreamt of. And you and I in our journey in life looking for what we could get , hoping to make it we've now been made joint heirs with Jesus Christ entering into his inheritance. Let's come round the Lord's table now and remember who we are. He has paid the price and we belong to him. Perhaps you could sing that little song it's in this Songs of Fellowship, it's number seventy three. Cover me. That was something that Boaz did, there when Ruth was lying at his feet. The exp , he he showed his acceptance of her by lifting his blanket and so , covering her, a blanket at his feet he covered her with and in this little song was, cover me, extend the border. And that's what he's done isn't it? He's extended the border of his garment and he's covered us. Thank you. What can I do for you today? Erm I came to see you a few weeks ago at night you know er It's just like I'm just filling up, you know, with mucus and stuff and coughing and I had er no sleep for about a week. I went on holiday, I thought Aha. it was hay fever. Yeah. And it and it actually cleared up, got better while I were on holiday. I've been back a week. u give you some anti histamines, did they make any difference at all? No. Oh dear. Right are you actually getting wheezy with this? Yes, very wheezy, yeah . Right. Do you find you cough when you run around? I've er I've only just I've only been coughing the last couple of days, but Yeah. I I mean I mean I've been up since half past three this morning, You wake in the early hours? I was Yeah. going to ask that as my next question. Yeah. Right let's have a listen because this sounds this sounds slightly different from last time. Certainly Yeah. sounds less like hay fever I must say. Yeah. Now er somewhere we have one of those,Right let's have a listen then. Just undo another Do you smoke? No. Good. What job do you do? Erm mechanic at place. Nice deep breath. Oops. Picture of something in everywhere. Hmm mm. You haven't been anywhere exotic have you? No. I've only been to Devon and Cornwall, you can't really call No you're not getting much there. And you haven't been abroad in the past six months? No. Okay, Never had Right. What you do with this is take a big breath, Yeah. put it your mouth and blow out as hard and as fast as you can. It'll make you cough probably, and keep your fingers off the s off the Sorry. scale. It's okay. Right big blast. You actually put it in your mouth. Sorry. It's alright. Oh dear, is that as hard and as fast as you can manage? Well I can I can have another try if you want. as if you're blowing out your birthday cake candle. Yeah. You remember the story bit about the big black wolf who Yeah. blow the little piggies house down. Well that's what you're blasting at. That's how you blast through one of these. Yeah, yeah. I'm sorry. Well I did tell you it'd make you cough. Yeah. Yes. Hmm. It's not very good is it? It's under four hundred. And Mm. you should be probably around six fifty. Given your build and height and age. Yeah. Now the story's much more that of late onset asthma, Yeah. Now a lot of asthmatics get it when they're fairly young. But you can get it in For the first time at any age. And Mm. it may well be allergy mediated to h pollen or dust or something like that. So it may just be a seasonal thing. But I I think the diagnosis is asthma or what ever t whatever's triggered it off. And we need to treat you along those lines. Now. The drugs of choice for asthma are inhaled drugs. Yeah. Then you can use very small doses, they go straight to the lungs, and Mm. they work without any particular side effects. And you can use inhalers like this, or you can use inhalers like this. Mm. You can use inhalers like th this puffer type. Yeah. Okay. And what I suggest we do is seeing Georgina's here we send you through to see Georgina and she can, if she's got time, we can briefly run through one or two types. See which Mm. suits you best. Yeah. Er What what what I can't understand, I can be alright, at the day, and as Yeah. soon as it comes to to night time I Yeah. can feel me eyes getting sore. Yeah. And then it comes on and by the time two or three o'clock I I'm I'm a wreck, even Yeah. even if I haven't had a shave, even the bristles, everything Yeah. seems dead sensitive . Yeah , that's right. I I Is that As Well it i Yeah. Asthma tends to flare up at various times it'll it tends Yeah. to flare up with exertion,i er and it has what's called a diurnal rhythm so the body's natural rhythms affect it. Mm. And so it tends to be worse in the early hours of the morning and you can have another blip in the sort of er middle to late afternoon as well. When your sort of body's running down anyway, you know it's it's a few hours after dinner time, it's not quite time to go home from work. It's a natural time to get tired and you can have a blip ten as well. Mhm. Er and things like sort of er midday and a late evening er usually fine, and then you have y quite a lot of asthmatics say they wake up in the night, somewhere between two to five. And Mm. it's very very common. What I think we'll do to start off with is to just put you on one inhaler and see how well you respond and if you only need it ev every now and again we don't need to do anything else. Some asthmatics need to be some On treatment on a in a regular preventative basis. Mhm. In the same way we was giving people blood pressure tablets to take every day. Whether Mm. they feel well or not. I think to start off with we'll just give you something to relive the symptoms Yeah. and see what you need, so er I mean it's been r been really bad as i You know I you know as er I don't know what to do with myself, you know Yeah. it Course no sleep at night . And walking about in Right you've only got a wheeze there's no evidence of Yeah. an f an infection, at all there. There's no crackles and it's expanding well and it peaks three eight two which is okay but it's quite down on what it should be. So you're going either Ventalin or Briconil And we're going ask Georgina to see if she's free. Okay? Right, thank you. Er and then we'll see what device cos the I mean there's there's a couple more devices apart from those, and you know different people are suited to different ones. There's no point in me giving you type A when type B's better for you. Yeah. So we'll ask her to run through and see what's what. Okay? Follow me. Right. Colleagues. Minimum wage. I propose to take composite twenty followed by motion three three four and composite twenty one. Erm, the executive are accepting all these motions but on a couple of them want to put in a speaker with a statement and er after twenty one will to put that statement to the C E C. I now call composite twenty abolition of Wages Councils South Western Region to move, G M B Scotland to second. Priority in debate to Southern and Northern regions so if all the additional speakers could come down to the front, be very much obliged. South Western region to move Chair, Conference,, Clothing and Textile. South Western Region. Moving composite twenty. This Tory government's relentless attacks on the poor of this country go on day after day. V A T on heating is the latest, and now we have rumours of V A T on food. Yet still they persist on the abolition of the Wages Councils. By stopping the Wages Councils this government, through the Employment Secretary, now it's David Hunt, and we in Wales know enough of David Hunt. They are turning their backs on the low paid workers. Taking away the protection which the Wages Councils provide is the latest step in the bullion offensive against the poorest in society. It is quite clear getting rid of the Wages Councils would result in lower wages, poor jobs, and a move away from equal pay. In nineteen ninety one, six thousand workplaces were found to be underpaying one or more workers. In nineteen ninety one, twelve thousand eight hundred and twelve workers were found to be underpaid. In nineteen ninety one, arrears totalling one and a half million pounds was due to those twelve thousand eight hundred and twelve workers. In nineteen ninety one, of those six thousand employers found to be underpaying, just seventeen were prosecuted. All were found guilty. This was the highest number of convictions in one year since the present record began in nineteen forty five. The government's response? Is to abolish the law that embarrasses the employers and gives minimum protection of low paid working people. What an appalling set of figures. But still, we have an appalling government. A government that believes we are out of recession, but is still making Britain the Taiwan of Europe. This Union needs no convincing, nor does the Labour Party, of the need to retain the Wages Council. The Labour Party must continue to reject the tax on the low paid, the young, the elderly, and needs to commit itself to a restoration of the Wages Councils, an increase in the power of the Wages Councils, and an improvement in the Wages Inspectorate, to ensure that all employers who break the minimum wages legislation be detected and prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. Conference, there are two and a half million low paid workers in Britain, covered by Wages Councils. Our own clothing and textile section are an exam pardon me. We cannot allow the protection to be taken away from them. Colleagues, I gave you twelve thousand eight hundred and twelve reasons for you not only to support by raising your hands, but by actively supporting your fellow members in their fight to retain the Wages Councils and to guard and protect their wages. I move. G M B Scotland , G M B Scotland. President, Congress. It is hardly credible that with all the economic problems facing this country, the latest Tory brainwave to aid recovery and keep growth is the abolition of the Wages Council. They wrongly believe that things can be put right by operating a framework where those on low pay can be paid even lower wages excuse me. Congress, we know that low pay never saves jobs and never will. The wages simulate growth as to put the unemployed back to work and have a high paid flexible work force. This government is intent on isolating Britain in Europe as the only country with no minimum guaranteed wages, and a producer for low cost products. In Scotland a quarter of a million of the workf workers would be affected by this Tor er, sorry, this Tory policy, mainly part-time working women and ethnic groups. We must recognize this policy for what it is, to turn Britain into the sweatshop of Europe. It is the duty of this Congress to cam to campaign and oppose this greedy Tory government and its policies at every turn. Remember, trade union and public opposition forced the re-think in the poll tax. We can do the same again. I second. Southern Region President, Congress, supporting composite twenty. Congress, Wages so Councils set minimum rates of pay in some of U K's lowest paying industries. They provide over two point five million, three quarters of whom are women with protection, industries such as clothing and textiles, shops, hairdressers, and leisure services are all protected by the Councils. Over the last few years the t Tory government has reduced the amount of wages inspectors. Each now is responsible for over thirty four thousand workers. Instead of dealing with problems of low paid and increasing the number of inspectors, the government is going to abolish them completely. Congress, as the majority of low paid workers are women, the abolition of Wages Councils is direct discrimination. Although more women are j t joining trade unions, they have to continue to work in places where their bosses are opposed to union membership. It may even be impossible to gain full recognition. Laws are needed to protect women's rates of pay and ensure they get a fair day's pay for a fair day's work. Of course, not only women are in danger of being unprotected. Millions of others will be openly exploited by unscrupulous employers. Th the economy can only suffer shortages and low productivity as a result of poverty pay. We must support the introduction of a minimum wage and fight against the abolition of Wages Councils. I urge you to please support this motion. Northern Region. Oh right, what happened to the Southern Region? Did they waive their rights? Ah You've got to have eyes in the back of your head here I'm telling ya. , Southern Region. Speaking in support of composite motion twenty. Conference, President. The Wage Councils were set up to establish legally enforceable minimum wages for employees and associated trades and prevented unfair competition . The Wage Council provided a useful basis for pay determination, especially in industries where there is little collective bargaining. The vast majority of the estimated two and a half million employees covered by the Wage Council work in the retail hot retail, hotel and catering, and textile industries. Many of these employees are women often working part-time. The scrapping of the Wage Councils will mean that millions of working people will be open to exploitation by unscrupulous employers. In the near future employers will be able to pay even lower wages and employees will no will have no legal right to challenge low pay. Many of our comrades in the hotel and catering industry work long and unsocial hours for as little as two ninety two an hour, a hundred and fourteen pound for a thirteen ho thirty nine hour week. Conference, who can survive on a hundred and fourteen pound a week? Many hotel workers don't belong to trade unions. It has always been difficult to organize hotel workers by the very nature of their industry but the time has now come for those very workers to join the G M B so that collectively we can fight the exploitation of low paid workers. Conference, I ask you to support this motion that calls for a publicity campaign to name those employers and establishments that exploit th their staff so they can make a fat profit, and to update the hotel list. If we really mean what we say we should blacklist those es establishments that refuse to recognize trade unions. After all, why we should we as trade unionists contribute to the ill-gotten gains of exploiters of human beings. Conference, please support Motion three three four Wages Councils. Lancashire to move , Lancashire Region, moving motion two three four. October the first nineteen ninety three is almost certainly the date the Wages Councils will be abolished. The abolition of the Wages Councils will not nothing less than rob two point seven million workers, mainly women workers, on minimum wage protection. Some employers will cease the opportunity as a chance to pay less and thereby making it even more difficult to make ends meet. Hotels and catering, clothing, retail, are three of the main Wages Council's industries, of which we have a large membership. The G M B currently negotiates at national level in industries as collective bargaining, but within the scope of the Wages Council. One could try and argue all the Wages Councils are doing in effect are rubber-stamping a joint motion agreed in advance between employers and unions. However, if the Wages Councils were abolished there would be no guarantee that a negotiated minimum rate would be applied. The result could be pay freezes, even pay cuts. Employers must simply abandon the national agreement altogether, or the employers may simply ban the national agreement altogether, as has happened in other industries like cotton spinning and weaving. Abolishing the Wages Councils would be a green light to sweatshops, a direct attack on the lowest paid. Wages undercutting is one of the possible results of abolition. We have already seen premium rate pay like double time for Sunday working attacked after statutory controls on them were removed in nineteen eighty six. The same attack would undoubtedly be made on basic rates when the Wages Councils are removed altogether. Employers who claim they can stand aside from com from com from competitive pressure to undercut are truly on one. The Wages Council's rates are currently used as a reference point in deciding what pay levels should be. Without it there could be a free for all and if abolition goes through the employers may well find themselves having to resort to some form of cooperative or wages club in its place. There is a place for minimum rates of pay. If there are no minimum rates of setting arrangements then standards will slip and conditions will deteriorate. Abolition of the Wages Council could seriously affect equality of pay between the sexes. A report by academics for the T U C shows there is no case for abolition. It is northing more than another attack aimed at the trade unions under the government's Trade Union Reform and Employment Rights Bill, and takes absolutely no account of the additional hardship it will impose on our members. A big proportion of them are women. Basic rates set by the Wages Councils apply equally to women and men. Over four fifths, that's two million, of these w of those who the wages c wages are protected by the Wages Councils are women and as there would seem no point in abolition unless the wages were gonna fall, then it is women who will suffer disproportionately, along with another vulnerable group, single parents. I urge Conference to condemn this uncaring cynical government's decision to abolish the Wages Council and call for the establishment of a National Wages Council. I se to set minimum rates of pay for all workers in all industries and services. I move this motion. Thanks , seconding motion three four four. I'm not gonna go over t what my colleague has said but what I do wanna know is when are the Labour Party gonna get hold of some issue and make some sort of mileage out of it, because we've got a number of sponsored MPs and we can't get 'em off the doorstep at election time, but when it comes about doing summat for us and consider the fact that it affects many many people and we talk about the links that the Labour Party and the trade union has, I think the Labour Party's already severed 'em, as far as I'm concerned. Support the motion. Composite twenty one, Minimum Wage, Lancashire Region to move , Lancashire Region. President, sisters and brothers. Moving composite twenty one Minimum Wage. Congress, if a few more voters got off their backsides last year and gone out and voted, and voted Labour, there'd be no need for this motion at all because it's Labour Party policy anyway. If ever the poor low paid need a decent wage it's now. The new jobs being created are mostly part-time, low paid, unskilled, with no promotion prospects and few employment rights. Yes, you've guessed it. The rising jobs are for women. In eleven U K regions more women than we men now have jobs. Jobs on the cheap. British Home Stores and Burtons have sacked thousands of full-time staff and replaced them with part-timers. What they call them is . You just wo get called in when it's busy and work between eight and sixteen hours. You've gotta be in the job five years opposed to two years to get protection against unfair sacking, sick pay, redundancy pay, maternity leave. If you work less than these hours you have no rights at all. The Tories encourage low pay. They're happy for Britain to be a at the bottom of the income scale with rich rewards for those on top income. It's estimated that over ten million people now earn less than the Council of Europe's decency threshold for wages. Sixty eight percent of ad adult earnings, an increase of twenty five percent since nineteen seventy nine. And at the same time the income divide between the top twenty percent of men and the bottom twenty percent is now greater than it were hundred years ago. Shame. Nearly one million people have now had to claim mean-tested benefits in order to top up low pay. Independent analysts have estimated that a minimum wage set at three pound forty an hour would add one point eight percent to the total labour costs in Britain. But wages are only one element of overall costs. In reality, it would mean just a rise of nought point two percent on overall costs. In France where minimum wage have ri risen dramatically a study found no si ni no effects on wage infl inflation or unemployment. The introduction of a national mo minimum wage set at three pound forty an hour would directly benefit four point five million workers. Seventy eight percent of these, that's three point five million, will be women. Fifty nine percent of this, that's four point five million, will be working part-time. The ex Chancellor will gain a billion pounds through National Insurance and reduced benefits. Seventy thousand'll be removed off housing benefit and twenty nine thousand from rent rebates. Forty thousand from family credit and two hundred thousand people will be means-tested benefit. Please support this composite. I move. Northern Region to second Mister President, Congress,, Northern Region, seconding composite twenty one. Congress, after fourteen years of power the Tories have are still hell bent on ruining the lives of low paid working class. More than five million full-time workers are low paid, and with the significant growth in numbers of part-time workers, the amount of low paid employees is increasing. Women in particular are concentrated at the bottom of their occupational hierarchy of the least rewarding jobs. Colleagues, of the Western economies, Britain is almost alone in having no legal minimum wage or equivalent. Surely, at a time when the U K's economy position is disastrous, even the Tory government should see that low wages are a drain on the nation's resources as they reduce industry's productivity potential. Just as investors expect a high return for their capital, we should expect working people to receive a fair return for their labour. It is well known that foreign companies such as Nissan,, Mitsibushi, all come to British, all come to Britain because British workers are amongst the lowest paid in Europe. British labour is cheap. Congress, the time has come to demand change, to demand that British workers enjoy the rights enjoyed by workers across the rest of Europe. This demand is not unreasonable. The demand is a fair day's pay for a fair day's work. A national minimum wage. Mister President, I second. Thank you. Does Liverpool wish to put in a speaker? No. Thanks very much. Colleagues, I call to put the C E C position , C E C. Congress, the C E C is asking you to support composite twenty, support motion three three four with qualification, and support composite twenty one. The Conservatives are determined to abolish the Wages Council. It's absolute disgrace. They're hell belt in, hell-bent in removing the last statutory protection against the poverty pay for workers in the U K. They will make us the only country in Europe without some minimum standards. Most of the two point five million workers affected are women. Delegates, the abolition of the Wages Council is an employment ch an employers' chapter to create sweatshops. What civilized government can really believe that the basic rate in my factory of two pounds seventy nine P per hour is too high? Could they clothe, feed and house a family on that kind of money? I don't think not. There's no economic justification for abolition. Many small employers want to keep Wages Councils. What we, we workers need is better management, not lower pay. Many more workers will be forced, by low pay, to claim benefits to make up their income, when they want to earn a decision wage. That also means we will be subsidizing bad employers through our taxes and the fiddling factory owners will undermine the decent conditions we have fought for over the years. We must continue to campaign on this issue and support taking legal action in Europe against the attack on women's pay. Motion three three four also deals with the abolition of the Wages Council and the C E C would like you to ask you to support it, but with qualification, that a national minimum wage rather than a national Wages Council is likely to be the best way to set a minimum rate of pay. To show our continuous commitment to fighting lo low pay the C E C ask you to support composite twenty, motion three three four and composite twenty one. Thank you. Thanks very much . Composite motion er twenty to the vote. All those in favour? Against? That's carried. Motion three three four. All those in favour? Against? That's carried. Composite motion twenty one. All those in favour? Against? That's carried. Colleagues, trade union Rights. There are a number of motions in this particular section. They are as follows. Composite twenty two, composite twenty three, motion three four two, motion three four three, motion three four six. Without exception the C E C are recommending you to accept them all but there is at least one where we're accepting with a qualification. Following the debate I will call to put the C E C position. I now call composite motion twenty two. Trade Union Reform and Employment Rights Bill. Yorkshire Region to move. Lancashire Region to second and colleagues if, if all the other movers and seconders and the C E C speaker would all come down to the front it would help us enormously with time Yorkshire Region to move. Is it? Okay, alright . , Lancashire Region, proposing composite motion twenty two. Congress, this legislation is th yet another attack on the workers' rights, wages and ability to organize. It is yet another attack on trade unions. It is a sick government that is proud of the fact that it's not signed up for a Social Chapter. It is even more sickening when official statistics show that one in four of all those suffering from poverty wages in Europe live and work in Britain. What does this legislation do for the low paid in Britain? I'll tell you what it does comrades, it kicks 'em right in the teeth. This legislation scraps the Wages Council. Mind you, not known for their generous pay awards, these Councils according to the government are a main obstacle to economic hope and prosperity in Britain. The G M B speaks for these workers, and we know that abolishing the Wages Council will not provide any hope or prosperity for millions of low paid workers all over Britain. The Civil Liberties Organization recently condemned the British government for violating international standards on the trade union rights. This leg legislation carries out further attacks on trade union, encouraging members of the public to sue strikers. Even Howard Davies of the C B I called this unhelpful. This legislation forces members to authorize on an annual basis their employer to deduct subs from their pay. The reason for this is very simple. It's to make it unreasonably difficult for unions to collect their subs and undermine collective organization. Again, this legislation attracts the Bridlington procedures that facilitate into the union membership disputes. The reason is obvious. It is, it is to support unions like the U D M and encourage scab unions. The only progressive things in this legislation are those demanded by European laws. On maternity rights the government has weakened the rights available to British workers and on they are resisting reorganization of cases. This legislation is nothing to do with employment rights. It is about weakening rights and are attacking trade unions. Congress, I move. Thanks President, Congress,, Yorkshire North Derbyshire Region, seconding composite twenty two. This Bill follows fr on from a series of attacks on the trade union movement and working people over the last fourteen years. These new measures will do nothing to improve industrial relations in this country. It is typical of this Tory government, a government that has not had a constructive idea all the time it has been in office, but thinks that union bashing is the only answer to the country's problems, that thinks it is the only way to unite the Tory troops. They honestly do not care, care about this country. They do not care about the unemployed. They do not care about the sick. They do not care about our future. They care about only one thing, about themselves and th that's staying in power. This is hanging on on to the reins of government and they are prepared to destroy the country in the process. The legislation is not only unnecessary but it is, it could set industrial relations back years in this country. At a time when more progressive countries are facilitating improved levels of communications between all sides of industry, this government sets out to cause disharmony and to create friction. More sensible governments place the onus on solving problems through social partnership, through improving standards, through actually encouraging training and recognizing skills. In the midst of this terrible recession this government can think of nothing better than scrapping Wages Councils and introducing more union curbs. These new measures will actively encourage unscrupulous employers to further exploit over two and a half million low paid in this country, mostly of them women. These measures make Britain an employment dumping ground, a country that pays its workers low wages and offers its workers no protection. Probably the largest attack is centred on the deduction from wages or check-off legislation. This is not unusual these days from employees while blaming the economic situation to refuse an increase in pay. But, in order to maintain the services to our members, unions will probably still have to increase rates at an annual basis. Imagine the situation where employers are now obliged to notify employee members of that rise in contribution and also reminding them that they have the right to withdraw their authorization. So not only do we have the challenge every three years to ensure that our members renew check-off but we will have in all probability through a similar process on an annual basis. What a drain on valuable time and resources. Colleagues, this composite calls for the immobilization of the union's many resources to campaign against the vicious and unnecessary legislation. It refers to G M, G M B sponsored MPs and MEPs. We demand that they defend our interests, both in Westminster and Eur European Parl Parliament, but we must realize that until the electorate of this country vote in a Labour government, as I am sure they will do in the near future, no later, we will have a w workplace campaigns, we'll have workplace campaigns to educate and inform our members. We are good at organizing and organizing we'll do. Colleagues, support this composite. Composite motion twenty three to be moved by Midlands President, Congress,, Midlands and East Coast Region, moving composite twenty three. Congress, in moving this composite I have no intention of delivering a history lesson. We're all painfully aware of our individual employment situations have changed for the worse over the past fourteen years of Tory government. As each slice of anti-trade union legislation has gone onto the statute book we've become less able to effectively represent our membership. We have witnessed the massive growth in unemployment, a huge increase in the number of part-time and home workers, many of them accepting a grotesquely low rate of pay. The decline in real earnings of all industrial workers is reflected in the growth of overtime in every industry. Twelve members of the European Community moved towards the standardization of workers' rights as contained in the Social Chapter of the Maastricht Treaty. John Major's government gallops proudly in the opposite direction. At a time when only one in five Conservative voters think that there is a need for further anti-union legislation, the government is pushing through the Trade Union Reform and Employment Rights Bill. The preceding composite has focused our attention on the effects of the forthcoming legislation. It is strange to consider that were it not for the intervention of Conservative industrialists, the proposals in this Bill could have been far worse. Lord Prior, figurehead at G E C, and former Tory Minister, argued against the government's original proposal that the employee's authorization of check-off facilities should be on a yearly basis. Such a proposal, he concluded, would be unworkable from the employer's point of view. He also indirectly supported the Bridlington Agreement by stating that employers preferred single union deals. The Tories have stopped short of making trade union membership illegal but is it legal to punish trade union members financially through selective redundancies, and as collective agreements are cancelled through offering inferior individual contracts and withholding pay rises? The Tories attempt to justify their punitive legislation by stating that industrial disputes affect economic growth. During the past twenty five years Italy has had the highest strike rate in Europe. During that same period of time Italy's average growth in industrial production has been four percent, compared to the U K's one point nine. The Tories would also that curtailing trade union rights is an important factor in attracting foreign investment. During the first eleven years of Tory government approximately twenty thousand jobs per year were created by foreign-owned companies. Compare that to the millions who joined the unemployed register. Congress, the very least we can ask of the Labour Party is for a total commitment to the repeal of all anti-trade union legislation enacted since nineteen seventy nine, and a commitment to sign the Social Chapter of the Maastricht Treaty. Only then can we begin to repair the damage caused since the Tories came to power. We can then effectively return to fighting for the improved quality of life of all our members. President, I move. Thanks very much. G M B Scotland to second, G M B Scotland to second. President, Congress,, G M B Scotland, seconding composite twenty three. In the last fifteen years we've been a country where law had little to do with Labour relations. Britain has become a country where almost every aspect of industrial relations are now covered by legal restraints. Although we should remember this discussing this motion today that the British state has never been averse or slow to use the law to subjugate working men and women. However, the reason that the contemporary attacks are different is that the shackling of trade unions was an integral part in Margaret Thatcher's economic package and if the only reason for this legislation was because it was part of a failed economic strategy then that in itself should be enough, but the real effect of anti-trade union legislation should be examined in the context of a wider social and industrial parameter, and if we take just one Act, the Employment Act of nineteen eighty, we can get some idea of the effect of Tory employment legislation. Six and seven of that Act increased the limits for unfair dismissal from twenty six weeks to two years. Section eight helped to introduce short-term contracts section nine removed the minimum basic award t for compensation for unfair dismissal. Section fourteen reduced the time period for entitlement of guaranteed payments and, perhaps worst of all, sections eleven twelve and thirteen on maternity rights affected the rights of women to return to work. Of course, this Act was followed by those of eighty two, eighty four, eighty eight, eighty nine, ninety, ninety one, ninety two and ninety three. All of them are equally vicious and vin vindictive. But we can see from the nineteen eighty Act that. despite its protestations, that it speaks in the name of individuals by shredding employment protection and undermining collectivism. This government undermines each and every worker. The truth is that acting in is isolation workers simply cannot recognize their rights against the superior powers of employers and of capital. Ultimately trade unions are the workers only social protection. There's a very succinct quote about law by Oliver Goldsmith and he puts it really into perspective and he says, laws ground the poor and rich men rule the law. It's time to get these laws off the backs of the working class. Support the composite. Does Birmingham wish to put a speaker in? No No. Thanks very much. Colleagues, motion three four two. Labour Movement Media Campaign. Midland Region to move President, Congress,, Midlands and East Coast Region. Today, we've had two examples of the media campaign. Timex in Scotland. What do we know about the Timex dispute in Scotland? I personally don't know a lot about it apart from the fact that Arthur Scargill went up there and there was a bit of excitement. But it made the national press because Arthur was up there and there was a bit of shouting and scuffling. John mentioned the Burnsall dispute. I've never heard of that one at all. But by looking at this document here, it would appear there's been more violence committed there against lawful pickets and yet that doesn't make the national press. Two examples of bias in the press. The Labour im ownership of the mass media tends to be concentrated in the hands of a few companies. Not just, not just publishing but also broadcasting in cinemas. I quote from the sixth of July nineteen eighty seven. On all three continents where Mr Murdoch rules his titles support businessmen, governments and their ambitions. It is an awesome power which threatens our democracy. It is not simply because Mr Murdoch interferes with editorial policy, which he does, but because his staff, from the moment they are employed, know what is expected of them. They know what to write and how to write, and if they do not they will be out the front door before they can pick up their hats and coats. End quote. Awesome power indeed. Labour should not get elected. Kinnock cannot be trusted. Too many U-turns. Kinnock too lightweight and a clown, slipping on the beach. Labour would do better with John Smith as a leader. Labour hold victory rally in Sheffield before election. The bias at times is obvious. At others more subtle. Television interviews. Get the politician or the industrial leader against a bi a good background, own office, bit of make up, comfortable in his own surroundings. Interview the trade union leader in the street. Traffic, unflattering angles, our knows about this a very subtle way you know what they're laughing at? You know what they're laughing at? A very subtle way of colouring people's views. Indeed, leading up the General Election, one tabloid paper said truth, not propaganda, and it ran a series of articles each day de doing features on the main Parties, to give a fair and balanced view, but also running other features claiming nothing wrong with the N H S, banking systems and other high profile problems. But then, on the day of the election, they said, we have given you all the facts but on balance advise you to v vote for John Major. Bias? What bias? There are out there people of thirty plus who have never known a Labour government, who only know what they see and read. We cannot afford to wait t a few months before the next election. We need now to get our act together. Unions put out newspapers, many put out more than one. We need an urgent review, maybe less papers but more information on rights lost and what Labour policies are for the future. Some of these thirty plus never had the rights so how do they know what have gone? Questions need answering. What is the Social Charter? Why huge job losses if we have a minimum wage? Why would a maximum forty eight, forty eight hour week lose jobs? It's up to us to inform them. Fewer, but better, papers. Bright snappy leaflets for notice boards. Lord Northcliffe once wrote, God made people read so that I could fill their brain with facts and later tell them whom to love and whom to hate and what to think. Well we need to make people think and we need to make them care. Support motion three four two. I move. Thank you . A seconder for three four two? President, Congress,, Midlands and East Coast Region, seconding motion three four two. Congress, as you know, our Union supports a free press but would like better rights of redress. Let me give you an example of the misuse of the press. The Sun published a front page lead stating that a Labour London borough had banned the teaching of Baa Baa Black Sheep as racist. This had been replaced by Baa Baa Green Sheep. This story was completely untrue and was successfully challenged in front of the Press Council. The correction was printed in a small two centimetre box hidden in well inside the paper. Other countries such as America allow papers to have a political leaning in terms of editorials etcetera. But actual stories must be balanced and if not, the correction has to be the same, must have the same prominence in the original, as the original, article. Why won't this government adopt a similar law for this country? Now, one of the successes that the media's had, if you can call it a success, is to link socialism and losers together. The trouble is, the media is able to influence the public and unfortunately influential people in the trade union and labour movements, and maybe they believe the propaganda that socialism is dead and respond accordingly. That's the media, the power of the media. What is needed from you Congress is to fight these distortions and to take back the front page headlines and make sure that the headlines are accurate, fair and truthful. I second motion three four two. Three four three Lancashire Region to move , Lancashire Region, speaking on motion three four three. The anti-trade union laws which we face in October are just another attempt by this government to wipe out socialism and break the trade union movement. We must demand that these laws be abolished because if this government has its way, the working man will have gone back one hundred years. Together with the abolition of the Wage Councils and the minimum wage, the working man will find himself at the mercy of the unscrupulous bosses. The laws have already crippled the working people throughout the U K. We watched unions being taken apart and what has the leadership done? Nothing. Get up front. Attack these laws. We will start to rebul rebuild the movement brick by brick. Only by being united will we defeat this government. promised to fight for the miners. Three hundred thousand marched in London, hundred thousand elsewhere across Britain, supported by millions. The tragedy is that didn't carry the fight through. I believe what goes around comes around, and our day will come. No more oppression, no more shackles, no more exploitation. We must start to fight back now and the G M B should be at the for forefront. I say fight the laws, fight this government, fight for the survival of socialism and the trade union movement. I move. Mister President, Congress,, Lancashire Region, seconding motion three four three. I believe, brothers and sisters, at this Conference, we must decide whether we're gonna take away from here back to our members any credibility. I don't imp intend to preach to the converted but what I do intend to say to anyone in this hall that's either indifferent or complacent or just too idle to do anything than let this motion drift by them, that if we don't get together on this issue to get the message over to our national officers and in turn the T U C, that if we don't stand and fight for the right to uphold the basic principles of what I believe to be trade unionism, that is the right to withdraw labour, the right to protect our brothers and sisters from oppressive employers, the right to command decent conditions and fair pay without fair reprisal. If we don't make a stand now then all of us in this hall will be a living, breathing testament to the betrayal of all those that have gone before us and we'll leave nothing for anybody coming in the future. As a works convenor, I work along twenty shop stewards, and I can tell this Congress that the message that they've given to me from the people from the people that have elected them, is that they're sick and tired of the perpetual bleating of the T U C about how they have to abide by the laws, when the only laws that are there are the laws that are bringing this movement down. There comes a time when natural justice supersedes any law made by any government, and that time's now. No longer the excuse of keeping low profile actions, hoping for a Labour government because if we haven't got the guts to stand up and fight the government that made these laws, then we've got no right to challenge a future Labour government that inherits 'em. Brothers and sisters, I say to you that the message that must leave this Conference is one that says to all trade unionists, we will fight any oppressive legislation used against us. All our brothers and sisters, when they need us, whatever the cost, wherever the place, we need no one to do the job for us. We won't wait any longer. We must say to our officers now, today, don't sit back and see the life blood squeezed out of our union. Show this government something, by your example, that they haven't got, and that's strong leadership. The leadership that the T U C have starved us of for over ten years. And give us back the pride and the credibility that we once took for granted as trade unionists but we allowed to slip away from us, and make us a force to be reckoned with, and send this government a message, we'll never allow anyone at Westminster to tell us how to run the G M B, we'll never allow anyone at Westminster to prevent us from protecting our brothers and sisters and we'll no never ever allow anyone at Westminster to defeat the trade union movement. I second the motion. Motion three four six Southern Region Congress, Mister President,, Southern Region, moving motion three four six. Colleagues, the de-recognition and non-recognition of trade unions in the U K has fast become the central challenge to and for the trade union movement, particularly as this government is committed to accelerating the de-recognition process. This creeping destruction of workers' rights has spread rapidly from journalists to printers, from tanker drivers to docks, telecom managers to mines, and lecturers to insurance staff. Slowly but surely the rights of trade union reps are being eroded. In some cases, incentives are being given by management to workers who disassoc disassociate themselves from the unions, leading to hostility and antagonism within the workplace between workers who have traditionally been united in furthering industrial relations. Trade union de-recognition is having effect of reducing the solidarity of workers and of reducing rights built up over a hundred years of trade union movement. And the government is proud of its achievement. In fact, it is so proud that it now boasts at a European level of the cheap U K labour costs and the lack of workers' rights. Two months ago the British government took out advertisements in regional newspapers in Germany encouraging business to come to Britain to take advantage of low labour costs compared to elsewhere in the E C. The advertisement proudly noted that the labour cost index for Britain is one hundred, compared to one seventy eight in Germany. In another publication, circulated by the D T I to foreign embassies, the government boasts and I quote, new labour laws have been introduced so that employers are now under no statutory obligation to recognize any union. Colleagues, if this government is so blatantly prepared to sell out its own workers in such a public manner, then there will surely be no limit to the steps they will be prepared to take to further reduce union power. We must fight the challenge for what it is. A direct attack on the fundamental freedoms and rights of workers to organize themselves collectively. But social dumping is but one example of the way in which the European spirit has been abused by this government. Unscrupulous employers have found new ways of sidestepping European social directives which depend on having union representatives in the workplace. By de-recognizing these representatives, employers can effectively ignore their obligations in Europe and thereby deny workers' rights accepted as basic conditions in the eleven other member states. Colleagues, union de-recognition strikes at the very heart of the trade union movement, and in preparing to face this challenge, the G M B must be at the forefront of the fight. Congress, I move. Is there a seconder for three four six? Congress, I second motion three four six. The nineteen eighty Employment Act gives the possibility to the employers through the U K to de-recognize legitimate trade unions and these trade union re representatives has to be the most damaging piece of government legislation of the last two decades. It is directed at the core of the transpor the general un er the er tee the union movement, which is unity thr throughout the workplace. It has allowed employers to drive a wedge between workers making the members of thi the, the workforce a second class citizens within their, their own workplace. It has allowed unscrupulous employers to avoid E C directives such as collective redundancies, transfers of undertakings, a range of health and safety directives. I second this motion. Thank you. Colleagues, I call to put the C E C position , Southern Region Secretary, responding on behalf of the C E C. President, Congress, the C E C is asking you to support composite twenty two, support composite twenty three, and motions three four two and three four six. We accept motion three four three with some qualifications as it begs the question actually how do we refine anti-trade union laws? We have long sought parliamentary protection against the common law and have already accepted some state interference in our rulebooks. We have, for example, welcomed laws that allows us to merge and accept transfers of engagements from other trade unions and also laws allowing political expenditure. The G M B supports a fresh approach to industrial relations' law with a completely new legislative code which brings international standards fully into the U K. President, we are totally opposed to the repressive trade union laws brought in by Tory governments over the last fourteen years. Tory governments that have said they are the champions of the individual, but have eroded the rights of individual workers over the last fourteen years. That want economic benefits of Europe for the of the business world but have denied British workers the protection of European social legislation. That abolishes Wages Councils but denies the lowest paid British workers a minimum rate of pay which the other eleven member states provide. As mentioned by the speaker of three four six about advertising in foreign newspapers, they have the audacity to advertise in foreign newspapers that cheap labour is available in Britain. They actually take pride in promoting Britain as the sweatshop of Europe. What kind of government is this? It's been mentioned by several speakers today. They're a sick cynical uncaring government that will go to any extremes to deny individual workers their rights. This was clearly illustrated just over a week ago when, by the cynical abuse of the legislative process, they introduced an amendment to the Trade Union Reform and Employment Rights Bill at the eleventh hour in the Lords. They did this to overturn the Court of Appeal ruling that found on behalf of a Daily Mail journalist and an employee of British . The judgement found that the trade unionists had been penalized for being members of a trade union. They were denied a pay rise when they refused to sign a personal contract because they wanted to be covered by the trade union collective agreement. The government's justification for this amendment was, and I quote, it was not in line with what the government expected. This is according to someone we've never heard of before and hopefully will never hear of again, a Viscount Ullswater. They're actually now infringing on our civil rights. They're infringing on our basic right to be a member of a trade union. And it was mentioned by the member of motion twenty three, they're actually now starting to look at membership of a trade union being illegal. The disgraceful action was described by Hugo Young of The Guardian as a shameful saga of a politically sick society. Congress, what is just as worrying is apparently the Parliamentary Labour Party was extremely reluctant to take any stand at all to respond to this blatant breach of I L O laws. Perhaps they should spend more time concentrating on protecting interests of workers than promoting constitutional debate within the Party. President, where do we go from here? I am pleased to report to Congress that, following a meeting with our lawyers, we're reasonably confident that there are in fact two avenues open to us to challenge the government in the Courts on the Social Chapter. We will now be considering how best to progress this challenge. We will continue to campaign vigorously with our colleagues in the trade union, and hopefully the labour movement, on all aspects of employment rights, not just through the media as asked for in three four two, but at the workplace. Despite fourteen years of trying to smash us into submission, they'll fail to break the spirit of the working people of Britain. Our members have had enough of repressive Tory employment laws that give too much power to unscrupulous employers and no protection for the workers. The British public have had enough. Trade unionists are fighting back. The General Secretary mentions some of them in his Report, and I do not apologize for mentioning it again, they're fighting back at Timex, they're fighting back at Burnsall, in my own region at Crawley we've twenty members who've been on strike for the last sixteen and a half weeks. They're fighting back in other workplaces throughout the U K. We must fully support these workers and campaign for them. The G M B will use every aven avenue open to us to ensure that British workers do not become the sweated labour of Europe. We demand the same rights, protection and civil liberties that other European workers enjoy. C E C recommends support composite twenty two, twenty three, motions three four two, three four six, motion fo three four three with the qualifications mentioned. Thank you colleagues. Thanks very much indeed er . I put the, put the Resolutions to the vote. Composite motion twenty two, all those in favour? Against? That's carried. Composite twenty three, all those in favour? Against? That's carried. Motion three four two, all those in favour? Against? That's carried. Motion three four three, all those in favour? That's carried. Er, anybody against? That's carried. Motion three four six, all those in favour? Against? That's carried. Colleagues, you'll have noted the time of the day. It's about fourteen minutes, thirteen minutes past four by my watch. Now, we were due to finish at four o'clock but I'm not suggesting we can get through all the business if we carry on. However, we've got the next composite twenty four on part-time workers which is very important, and rights of work. All these motions are associated in a way with the previous debates that we've had. I think, if we went on for another half an hour or forty five minutes, we could clear virtually everything. We would only be then left with the er Regional Reports. However important those are, I feel confident that we could get those in at the end of the week somewhere. Would you agree with me that we carry on? Thank you very much indeed. Part-time workers, composite motion twenty four, part-time and temporary workers, Yorkshire Region to move. G M B Scotland to second. Priority in debate Northern Region. If speakers could come down to the front please Colleagues, settle now please. President, Congress,, Yorkshire North Derbyshire Region,mov moving composite moving composite on part-time and temporary labour. You might find it's a little bit strange me stood up here talking to you about temporary labour, part-time workers, when you've heard what Asda's gone through and said temporary labour situations all morning. But I'm still here to ask you to support this motion on the plight of casual and temporary workers. Many of us here present today have worked for our employers for over two years so we have some protection under law. Well, it's a bit of a joke really. In many instance not even that's a consolation. The casual workers are the perfect tar target for the employ employers who to swing the d Sword of Damocles. They'll chop your heads off when they feel like it. This is how the employers see the temporary and casual worker. They'll do any job. They'll not answer back. They can move 'em about when they feel like it. And they'll put up with any conditions. They can pay 'em what they like and if they upset anybody they're down the road. Well, we all know that cos that's exactly what happens to 'em. If we carry on to let 'em do as they like, what'll happen is this section of the workforce will go in such a decline, they'll be very profitable which as we've already heard as Asda are trying it on now. When costs are so profitable why would they need full-time employees, they can just have us stood at the door any d any g at the gate any week they want, begging for a day's work. My granddad did. I'm sure some of yours did. In a lot of, a lot of situations these er employees can't go to bank, get a loan, they can't get a mortgage, building society won't listen to 'em, nobody really cares about 'em. We need to ensure that these people get some form of equal right, equal right with a s simple contract. More and more employees are using these casual workers and every one of our jobs is under threat cos if you lose your job tomorrow, you're a casual the day after. As easy as that people who have to work under these conditions, right, in the threat of w threat of labour, have real problems with the kids. You know, the normal things in life. A bit of security of employment so they can sort of sort out for an holiday. Instead what happens is they do thirteen weeks as some place and they're down road. It's no good at all. If their protection under agreement and under law was exactly the same as a full time-worker then what'd happen is simple. There'd be no need to have 'em as casuals or temporary workers. I've heard in fac er in my factory, I've heard it in other places, right, when a temporary l temporary or casual worker goes down the road, or a part-timer work's cut short, ah it's only a casual and he only expected to be here for a few weeks. Who'll tell his wife and kids that cos I don't want to. And it does matter. It matter to all of us. We can't accept these conditions for our employees so sign 'em up for the G M B and fight for their rights. Fight for a fair, the fairness, and a fair ineq quality of life. Colleagues, I move this motion. G M B Scotland to second? G M B Scotland to second Chair, delegates,, Lanarkshire two branch, clothing and textile section, seconding temporary workers. The forgotten people, or so it seems. The people who continue to be discriminated against by employers with regard to pay, holidays, redundancies, working conditions, pensions, maternity rights etcetera. Congress must fully support moves by the T U C and the Labour Party to ensure that temporary workers are treated no less favourably than full-time workers. Action is essential. Particuary particularly, sorry, in today's economic climate. Increasing numbers of people are being employed on temporary basis. Making life so much harder for th for the worker and so very much easier for the employers. For example, if there is an unexpected budgetary overshoot, the labour force can effortlessly be reduced by simply not renewing employment contracts, which is why industries are succumbing to the same ruthless logic. I urge you to support this motion for temporary workers, and let's have equal rights for all. Thank you. Northern Region , Northern Region, supporting composite twenty four. President, Congress. How would you like to have no employment rights? This is the case with most temporary workers and some part-time workers. No right to redundancy and no right to accrued holiday pay. Most will be paid less than full-time workers and be on short-term contracts, I E monthly and in some cases weekly. In my own particular section of the clothing and textiles the union fought long and hard to gain the same rights and conditions for temporary workers, and so leading to permanent employment in most cases. In the present economic climate, I feel we are taking a backward step to the bad old days. How many rights have we lost since the Tories came to power? We now have many more temporary and part-time workers, with the so-called, in commas, decent employers, who will do anything to save money. Isn't this a threat to the workers who feel their job is permanent? How many employee employers, I E British Home Stores, have paid off their full-time staff and given them part-time only employment. Timex in Scotland who sacked all their workforce, who now have no job at all. How many more will try this on in the future? We can no longer stand by and let this happen. When will we say enough is enough? Well, Congress, I say it's now. Congress, the C E C are recommending your acceptance with a statement and I call National Vice President Congress, President,, speaking on behalf of the C E C. Congress, the C E C is appalled at the increase in the use of part-time and temporary contracts by employers as a way of cost-cutting. This increase, accelerated by the recession, has meant inequality and discrimination for hundreds and thousands of workers. The growth in the labour market flexibility, as employers like to call it, has become another way of describing de-regulation of employment conditions and eroding trade union rights. Under the Tories part-time and temporary working all too often, not all too often, always,ha means low pay, poorer working conditions and few of the benefits enjoyed by full-time workers. Britain is fast becoming a sweatshop economy based on cheap labour and no investment and the Tories have proved it. John Major himself, when they put adverts in every press in Europe, come to Britain, our employees have no rights and they are cheap labour. So it's not rhetoric, it's truth. Instead of moving forward into the twenty first century, the Tories are moving backward us backwards with working conditions that would be more suited to the nineteenth century. Colleagues, since nineteen eighty one, we have stood on this platform and denounced C C T, compulsive competitive tendering, because it was the start of low paid temporary workers. Lower the hours, no holidays, doing the same amount of work in shorter hours, if you want to win the contract. Most of us, or most employees, were threatened. Well, some time ago Jack Straw was supposed to have said that under the no new er Acts, or under a Labour government, that C C T would remain because of a transfer of undertakings we didn't er need to change. This union made Jack Straw in no doubt, and the Labour Party, that on their election the compulsory element of C C T will be removed, and if they had any ideas they'd better forget 'em. Congress, not so long ago we had Panorama and I T V, and I congratulate both of 'em, for highlighting to the world the problems of temporary and low paid part-time workers, where one agent went under cover and where Panorama highlighted that temporary working conditions, not of back-street sweatshops, not of the little corner shops down the road, or th or the little needlework factories, but of E M I, one of our biggest producers in this country, that they were employing labour for one year eleven months and twenty eight days and then sacking 'em. What a disgrace for a company to behave, a company like E M I. And there's not only E M I, there's a vast number of 'em. Well, a few weeks ago, on your behalf, I attended the National Policy Forum of the Labour Party and we made it quite plain that the Labour government in its manifesto will have full employment rights for all from day one, so no one can abuse workers' rights. And you'll be pleased to know that Frank Dobson has agreed to meet us on the fourteenth of June and we will make sure, to the best of our effort, that that policy will be endorsed. Congress, the C E C is committed to negotiating full-time rights and benefits for part-time and temporary workers. We will ensure our bargaining agenda makes the employer's so-called flexibility work for G M B part-time and temporary workers and it will be full empli employment right for all from day one. Thank you. Support the composite. Thank you very much indeed . I put composite motion twenty four to the vote. All those in favour? Against? That's carried. Rights at Works, colleagues, will include motion three two three, motion three three eight, three five O, three five two, three five three, three six five. C E C are accepting, coupled with a statement and with a qualification and then I'll be asking to respond for the C E C. Motion three two three May Day Holidays. Lancashire Region to move and could the other speakers move, and seconders, additional speakers, come down to the rostrum please President, Congress. I never thought in my wildest dreams that this motion'd be on an agenda. But there again I'm not bloody surprised. The leadership we've had from the trade union movement over the last fourteen years, we've been picked off on everything. As the old Greek said, what you have you hold. Now we're likely to bloody lose it. I can't for the love of me understand the leadership of all the unions that allowed, we don't even get enough holidays of what they get on the continent, we should be asking for more, not taking them off us or putting it in October to celebrate Nelson and Trafalgar because I couldn't give a monkey for 'em. If you want your holidays, you have them in the summer time and May Day is a workers' day. It's nothing to do with politics, with the Labour Party, the Conservative or the Communist Party. It's always been a workers' day and I hope it will remain so. Is there a seconder? Er, Lancashire Region. President, Congress. In seconding the motion for keeping the May Day holiday, it is my opinion that th th g this government is having yet another go at the unions. It seems to me that we are having to fight all over again to keep many things that we have already fought for and gained in the past. We must all fight together to keep thet Motion three three eight, European Legislation, Lancashire Region to move , Lancashire Region, moving motion three three eight on European Legislation. President, Congress. Over the last few weeks certain parts of European legislation have come to the forefront of media attention. Not least, the ruling of a maximum working week of forty eight hours. This Tory government, in its infinite wisdom, has decided not to introduce this ruling until at the earliest two thousand and three. What a farce. This government should be forced to stand by its convictions, not just pick and choose rulings to follow which will fill its whilst ignoring those which will benefit the ordinary working man. Why should the government be allowed to get away with limiting the Transfer of Undertakings legislation to the private sector? Are public sector employees' rights less important than those of private sector employees? I think not. I move. That seconded? Thank you very much. Motion three five O, Employment, London Region to move President, Congress,, London Region, moving Resolution three five O. Congress, I'm sure everybody here has heard of, or had experience of, the changes taking place in the terms of our employment. No longer do we take it for granted as meaning that we get a job in a company, or an industry, with the hope and intention of learning new skills, gaining experience and becoming part of an enterprise, in turn passing on skills and giving others the benefit of our experience. In the past, this did not mean that we would not move from company to company, it most certainly did not mean that we ha that we thought we had a job for life, but it did mean that we expected a degree of permanence and improvement as part of the reward for our endeavours and labour. But that has all changed now. What we now see all too often is a variety of less secure substitutions for full-time direct employment. These come in the guise of short-term and temporary contracts, agency staff and contracting out, rolling contracts and extended trial periods, right across the employment scene. And make no mistake, although this has been introduced in a piecemeal and seemingly haphazard manner, it is in effect a well thought out policy, with the strategy coming from the Tory think-tanks and implemented with gusto by their close friends and allies in both public and private industry. And the goals of this policy are many and varied. Prime amongst them is to d to undermine nationally agreed wages and conditions, to undermine rights embodied in industrial law, to undermine trade union membership and organization. And the victims of this policy are often low paid and often women, but it's by no means confined to these groups. It is widespread and growing to the extent that the government is currently seeking to legislate for variable contracts between trade union members and non-members. But the effects and intentions of short-termism go far beyond these limits. Just think what we have struggled to build up over the years, for what we call job security. We've struggled to establish financial security so as to provide for the needs of our families and communities. Good health, good housing, good education and freedom from the fear of poverty and deprivation. And we approach this in a positive manner, so that hand in hand with stability we had job satisfaction, fulfilment and pride. But once a job becomes a series of chances with restrictions built in, all of what we struggled for becomes a thing of the past. Uncertainty replaces contentment, insecurity replaces hope. Some aspects of short-termism can be dressed up to look appealing. Well, it's better than no job at all som I hear them say. No, there can be no doubt that long-term effects will be bad for organized labour and a cruel price for many, a price not worth paying. Colleagues, short-termism must be opposed and reversed. I move. Is there a seconder for three five O? Thank you. Motion three five two, Yorkshire Region to move President, Congress , Yorkshire North Derbyshire Region, moving three five two. Contracts of Employment. A contract of employment can also consist of items other than those listed in employment statements. Works rules, custom and practice, and some terms in collective agreements can all be incorporated. The law says that once the employment contracts have been accepted by the employee, then the employer should not make changes without agreement. If employers try to give notice to change the contract without agreement then they are in fact giving notice to terminate the contract and offering a new one on different terms. If the employee refuses the change, the employee will be in breach of contract. If they try to impose it unilaterally, the employm employee would then be entitled to resign and claim constructive dismissal, or alternately, in some circumstances, take the action to a County Court. This is, of course, is where the problem starts. The employee must leave his or her employment on the chance that their case succeed. Bearing in mind that even if an employer's action amounts to constructive dismissal, this does not always mean that the dismissal will automatically be unfair. The tribunal or court could well take the view that the business needs to reorganize or terminate practices or indeed to cut costs. All of these can be viewed as valid reasons for changing a contract. To succeed with a er constructive dismissal case the proposed changes must be viewed as fundamental. Many changes are not viewed as fundamental in today's economic climate, so in theory we may seem to have the backing of the legal scheme, where in practice we have to cope with the interpretation which is weighed towards the employers and their economic arguments. Th that is why this motion calls for the C E C to introduce a rolling campaign aimed at introducing legislation which will bind companies to the status quo until new agreements are reached through consultation. A company breaking this agreement should give us the absolute right to seek compensation. New legislation is needed because employers can hide behind the smoke screens of reorganization for economic reasons, which enables them to make changes to working people's terms conditions of employment. Surely if a change is impl imposed on employees, then regardless of the su supposed economic arg argument, regardless of the employer's dictatorial attitude, we should be able to say these proposed changes will not take effect until full negotiation and agreement have been reached. Colleagues, I ask for you to support, to support this motion. I also ask you to monitor an any unilateral decision made by your employers and document any changes. Let your full-time organizer have the details. We will then be in a position to support our campaign with the facts. Colleagues, support this motion. Thanks very much colleague. Is there a seconder? President, Congress,, Yorkshire North Derbyshire Region, seconding motion three five two, Contracts of Employment. has outlined the complex legalities involved in trying to stop emp employers imposing changes to contracts of employment against the wishes of the employee. On one hand we know that the employees cannot make changes to contacts without agreements. On the other hand, we realize how difficult it is to use the law to bring these rogue employees to task. Unfortunately many employees also know how difficult it is for us to stop them simply imposing changes without agreement from the people that are affected. There are, of course, certain alternatives to using the law. Workers can refuse to accept the change and withdraw their labour. Many workers are already looking over their shoulders with four million people in reality unemployment in the United Kingdom. They do not see strike action as a real choice, and why should they? They have they have t why should they even have to contemplate taking this type of industrial action? They have kept their side of the agreement, kept their part of the contract. Colleagues, fourteen years of Tory rule has taken its toll. Many employees are using the excuse of falling sales to impose changes to previously agreed conditions, often using the excuse to impose changes to conditions that have been fought for for many years. They will sometimes attempt to justify the situation by buying out certain conditions. The workers would rather stick to the status quo but know that an industrial tribunal would rule that the employer was forced to make the changes for supposedly sound economic reasons, and moreover had sought to agree financial compensation. The motion asks the C E C to initiate a campaign aimed at changing legislation, giving workers the right to refuse to accept changes to previous agreed contracts. We must start by collating and documenting all cases, all changes, where imposed affecting G M B members. We should highlight and publicize these imposition, pass the information to our sponsored MPs, ask them to raise the issues in Parliament. Our forbearers in the trade union movement fought hard to win many of the conditions enjoyed by G M B members today. They would turn in their graves if they knew that we were allowing employees to simply give twelve weeks' notice of intent to change those conditions. We need legislation to deal with this issue, but we need legislation with teeth. We need legislation that will help us retain our hard-fought rights and conditions. Working people need to maintain their dignity. If employers can simply change conditions without fear of the law, then the law needs changing. Colleagues, support the motion and you will help people's dignity in work been stolen. Support the motion and you will hopefully be starting the campaign for fairness, a campaign for a level playing field, a campaign for justice under law. Colleagues, I second the motion. Motion three five three, London Region. President, Congress,, London Region. The saying, one law for them and another for us, goes back a long way. Probably nobody in Congress was alive when it was first said. However, the reasons for its conception are as valid today as they were whenever the saying was first coined. It is truly amazing that in a civilized country with a government staunchly committed to law and order, or so they say, that the tax payer, you Mr President, you fellow delegates, me, and my members, our members, are left to pick up a bill amounting to millions of pounds as a result of actions by certain employers, which are, without doubt, criminal, but not against the law. I'm talking, Mr President, about companies who, using the mask of the recession,their very best management and at the worst blatant fraud, by going into liquidation overnight, owing millions in unpaid wages, holiday pay, redundancy pay, P A Y E, National Insurance, pension and union contributions, not to mention V A T. There are provisions, subject to limits, for payments of these outstanding debts. We pay them. But this takes time, months in fact. The distress and hardship caused to redundant workers cannot be valued. However, that disc distress is greatly increased when these workers find that their ex-bosses opens another business with another name, just over the road or in the same premises. There are numerous examples of this mal-practice. The sewing factory in Buckinghamshire where twenty five workers arrived to find the door locked and the company in receivership, owing them a total of a hundred thousand pounds. The brand name of this factory was sold and is now being manufactured abroad, but an unsuspecting public still buys that brand, after having paid in taxes the outstanding debt. The engineering factory in Hertfordshire who conned their staff into working for three weeks without pay before finally going into receivership. The loyal workers were gobsmacked to find two months later their ex-boss had bought all his ex-machinery at the receivers' auction for next to nothing and started up in business again under another name in the same premises. Colleagues, there are many more examples of this crime which is not a crime. Go on a train without a ticket, or don't get a TV licence and the re is a substantial fine and a criminal record. Rob workers and the country of millions of pounds and get off scot-free. A tax loophole for the bosses and a tax noose for us. Congress, this motion urges a change in legislation so that, in the matter of insolvency, the employer be held liable to a much greater degree and indeed be held criminally responsible for actions involving awardance of debt liability. For the sake of all employees and re employment rights, I move. There a seconder for three five three? Is there a seconder? Formally seconded, thanks very much. Motion three six five, Single Table Pay Negotiations. Lancashire Region to move Er , Lancashire Region, moving motion three six five. Th the motion's basically saying that we want to continue er our demands for harmonization of conditions pe irrespective of what peop jobs people do er in terms of negotiating, negotiating agreements. Now the er th it the resolution does say, where appropriate, and I think that obviously it it's not inappropriate, it's not appropriate, to undermine er agreements on the basis of negotiating locally, is what the resolution actually refers to so er so I can see and I would anticipate appropriate would be where it does not undermine er national agreements. Er, I also wanted to raise the issue of er the public service section in respect to er this because there's something prob perhaps not actually tackled in the resolution but equally er important I think is that it's actually getting the resources into er er down to the br branch level and er if we took this resolution literally, er what it would actually mean would be that er in har with harmonization of agreements we would be handing over er our majority on the manual workers, public service workers to , so obviously we gotta take this resolution very seriously, but consider its implications and the relevance of the word appropriate because I don't think that we want to be er handed over to come July the first er single table bargaining where we are an absolute minority and where th th that union merge that's taking place is obviously hostile to our union. So I, I move the resolution three six five. Thanks very much . Seconder for three six five, formally seconded. I'm calling of the C E C. Whilst is coming to the rostrum, just make the point colleagues that it's nearly ten years since G C H Q and a massive demonstration is planned when that particular date occurs and we're gonna be very much involved in it. President,, C E C, Lancashire Region. Congress, the C E C accepts motions three fifty, three five three and three six five. We mis wish to make statements on motions three three eight, three five two and we have a qualification to motion three two three. Let me begin with the qualification. Motion three two three is quite right to criticize the blatantly political proposal to remove the May Day holiday which would leave the U K as one of the few civilized countries without a day to acknowledge the labour movement. However, we regret the use of the word genocide in the motion since it is quite out of proportion Hi! Gonna at least stop at Gerald's hasn't he? Oh he hasn't? He has, yeah. Oh what a pain! You got that thing on haven't you? I know , but don't worry. Just keep talking normally. Wha what, what thing? Tt! Tt! Came round Oh yeah. and he just started,bloody hell! It's erm really stuff who write er can I put the Channel four news on? I mean er . What the ra ,revelations? Mm. So he's leaving on Monday. So he's moving on Monday. Oh that's good! So Yeah. while we're all waiting with a cooked dinner he's going to have to go up Gerald's. But, they've decided that they're pleased with what Gerald's done Oh God! so he's got that job all the time now, he's working on Yeah. Sunday. Super! Er looks a erm she said, oh am I coming over to see you tonight? So she's just rang up, her car's gone completely to bits and erm Oh that's a shame! the the ignition's gone on her car and the erm So it wasn't the clutch then? No, said the No she's lost the . only fou , she got the choke on. She'd driven from Newcastle to virtually to with the choke on! So wonder it doesn't stall. I did that once. Yeah. Cos it's easily done isn't it, cos you Yeah. just forget? and it doesn't do any harm for a short distance but er She got, so she get to nearly to her friends and she realised that the she'd left the clutch on. Anyway, so it's not that. But she couldn't get the car started this morning. So hasn't she been to college today then? Yeah , she'd been to college but she couldn't get her car started, she had to get her dad to drive her in and pick her up. And erm Is she not coming tonight. Well she's not coming on Sunday is she, because of the No I said er and she said, I'm ever so sorry! I said it's okay I just erm you know, I don't I'll probably, I'm fine on my own, I've got things to do and I can watch T V and I Mm. can, and she said, oh alright then, if you're sure? And she went how are you? I'm fine. She said, you don't sound fine. I said I'm feeling fine thanks honestly! Aargh! Mm! I just don't want to be treated like, you know, object of pity or something ! You're rare because of the way Ee! Well I'm pretty damn rare that's rind here! Right. Have you heated the beans up? Ooh no. Are we having tea with this? Ooh yes! Make some tea. Is it, is this a oh no. Anyway so er that's what she said. And she said er, what about Sunday? I said, well, I really feel I can lead my own company section, I forgot Andrea was coming. She said, well alright then. She said, how about Ritzi's on Monday? I said, oh I don't think I could cope with that! I don't feel like it anyway. Well doesn't it ma , I mean when you do you'll be away with your different groups' points and he'll be Makes me angry cos it's, you know just A waste. without energy. But well erm oh no, just sort of like, and like he's being like, so considerate now! And he's like saying, how are you feeling and all that? I thought, well he could have done it Should have said er well I think you should go and phone Joe in the morning. No. But you know, I felt like saying, well, you know he could have been a bit more considerate and concerned when we were actually going out with each other! Well it's better to feel than never have felt at all isn't it? To me, he's an emotional cripple! As well as being a bloody idiot to you! That was more he said. Was it? And what did you sa , what did you just say? He's o , like your dad said all through his life the other way around . such into the shadows. Yes. You've got to miss the shadow for the po But he's just a bit irritating cos he well you know I do , I don't understand how you go through a whole relationship and everything, and then come to end of it and not even feel the slightest bit Well he probably does but he, obviously he's Horrible! . Oh well, you know er we're talking him and she says er something about I said er ooh you know, he's hardly ever cried since you got, he says,Mm! That's what he says! Course, men can't cry can they? She said, I mean, she says I'm not prejudiced here, and she says there's obvious exceptions and they're not bad but the majority of them are a waste of time! She's given up smoking and casual sex now . Well I can perhaps it's No, she says not, she says not all men but she says a lot of them have inbred to them that they can't cry and and all that. Well it's a macho thing, you know. Mm. It isn't manly to She said that. to cry. I think we shall have to start. How come bought these mini Snickers for there? American ones! Just cos you get them free,I see ! No, they weren't free for us. Just came over and asked what we wanted. Going to put them in your stocking then. That's the one . hurls it out of it wouldn't it? Or a lousy hairbrush and a can't even remember what the present was, it was enthralling! Right, these are nearly ready now, but there aren't that many actually but just leave . Mm. Get that. Did you use all the ones up love? She's cut No. them all in twice in, in two. No I, I had Maybe it might be an idea to get a deep fat fryer somewhere. You ask Steven, I I can't. Steven knows what his parents want. You always put a deep fat fryer because Well, I've got to replace that soon. They cost about fifteen pounds. Mm. Or twenty five pounds. I know it was a cheque. And gonna get Yeah but then , she's . No. It's not, supposed to be something like modern, mind, yours'll be. Do you heat them up under the er No,. No. Ah! They act as a . I think so. You'd never ! No it's just . Well I didn't know what the sort of, modus operandi is er Same as . you might as well, you see. It's cold isn't it? Right! Erm We've lost all the mats! That's my brother! Mum I can't find any mats! The little round ones. They must have been about. Look at this! I know you said. Somebody gave them to you. That's nice of her! . Yeah. You get the er the newest one Mike. Oh fine! Well that's the plan isn't it? Yes, that's the one. Hey! That's a nice . I shall have to go into the garage tomorrow and get a I've got, I was gonna put it up there actually. It'll be alright overnight won't it? I just Excuse me! Yeah, I just put a drop of this erm What time are you working tomorrow Elizabeth? Nine till one. No I'm just thinking about erm next Tuesday, I'm supposed to working, it turns out but I shall try and work it so that I can still come shopping with you, but I shall have to leave Early. well Well I've got you know and have a quick browse. If we get up early, haven't you got any lectures at all on Tuesday? No I just got a teaching thing, but it's you know Well we could get up there fairly earlyish couldn't we? Yeah. I'll see what I've got when dear Les comes. Dear Gerald. Oh don't be stupid now Elizabeth! There's a hole there. Because, I only said if you cut Don't worry, there's plenty of bits. them all in half there'd be enough to feed the street wouldn't there? I looked for one of those sandwich box things for Gerald in Sainsburys and they hadn't got one. I think they must be getting . Perhaps they've only got them in . Well do you want me to pick one up while you still go into Yeah. I'll, I'll have one, I'll come next time you do the monthly shop I'll get one, but I'll make him some biscuits. I'll make him some biscuits on Saturday afternoon I think. Well I've er I'll probably go to the other Sainsburys on Saturday ah, do you want me to see if there's one in there? Yeah. I'm glad somebody's appreciating his work. Mm. Maybe this'll be the end, the end of Christmas time. I don't want any of those beans. That, you're not getting any. I don't want any beans? Oh well, why not? I'm almost ready now. So, do you want to just do those? Yes I will if you want. Shall I pour the tea then? Well I'm sure if whether we're at that stage or not. Mm. Oh yes. Go on then. Erm well leave, leave me alone while till I can get the er Why don't you take that in with some milk? And just put it on the coffee table, but keep it away from those books. Mm. Just have a little milk shake. I'll just take the mugs through shall I? Mm. These are virtually ready now. Mm. Bring the eggs over here and I, just take that through there. Get your brother a mug. Well, is he coming down? Has he eaten? No! Well I've only got three mugs here. Oh yeah! And Moira said she, she went into your shop to have a watch strap changed. And we haven't got any ! No. And they put it on back to front and so she keeps on putting her watch on upside down, she goes and I was feeling dead sick and then it realised it was the stupid cow at the shop with Oh! Tell her to erm It's broken as well. The watch or the strap? The , the little bit which you stick the Tell her to bring it in if she's got the receipt so th Probably hasn't still I don't think. open tomorrow. Why? Well for emergencies. They've brought you a farewell present but they think it's just too big. They got nobody . Don't they? Find out tomorrow. That's a pi , well when did you find out? I knew I was going to Stafford for a few days, but I don't think, I'll be there a fortnight. Erm Aha. this was, I found out.. Did Mr tell you? No, sorry! I found out tonight sorry, no er . Hey! Don't put any chips at my lap! Thanks mum. Yeah so . Whose crinkled chips? Mum made them? Dad. And Thick aren't they? crinkle are they? Mum says erm they're thinking of investing in a deep fat fryer. Oh yeah! Quiet. Gerald's mum's got one. Borrow there's see what it's like first. Oh that's a good idea! Ta. Mum would like that. Gerald's mum's got a deep fat fryer, let you borrow that first see how th , ah, what they're like. Maybe she doesn't want to lend it me for Yeah , use it up though. Mm. What kind of sausages are these? There's a mark on this chair. Oh dear! There's bread with some butter. Is there that clothes shop dad. Yes it looks very nice. Have you got some trousers? Yes. for me. Mrs telling me, she really needs this doesn't she? Vivien's coming this weekend. Is she? That chap in there's very good as well. He were very good. Well what happened was I, I rung erm sorry! What did you say? No, it's alri , erm I was just saying about Opened. opened, you know. Well I rung up Mrs , she said well she would do them, but Vivien was coming, and Dave so she'd rather not . So I thought, ooh Brenda asked her. Oh Mrs , she said she'd be, she would do them but she'd felt absolutely terrified at the prospect because she had a a few years ago cos Gerry never had trousers with turn ups. Now he's a big boy! But she would worry about them. I mean, she would turn them up, she would worry. So I thought, well I can't really ask her. I know how she's feels, like . So I says, if we gotta get back to her cos I went to Margaret's funeral . Mm! Yes. Derek said how's Elizabeth? I said, she's alright, but it wasn't the ordeal that she thought it was going to be. He said, well she did . And what did you say then? Goodbye. Mm. So , saw today, Coleen came up to me. Mhm. And she was saying about the , she said that it was right wa , what was, it was quite bad in the car cos you right,like laughing, joking things like that. Mm. Well if it's anything . Well Steven's told his mum. Oh dear! What did she say? Erm What sh , what did he say? I can't remember. She says, how how's Elizabeth ? He said well, erm, or something about reunions and told her. And he said she was getting dead pathetic and saying, who finished with who? Why di , why did you finish? And all this. And he said he just won't Did he tell her that you finished with him? Who knows! Didn't ask. And what she say? Well, I, he did tell me but I couldn't remember,sh He will say hello to you. Mm. Did you ask him if he'd te , told his mum or did he just volunteer it? No I asked him. Is he okay? Pardon? Is he okay? Oh yeah! He's on top of the world! Well I, I'm gonna go out with somebody called Kath. Mm. It'll happen in his Ford Capri at least once a week. Yeah. So yo you don't know what time he's starting do you? Er,tomorrow. Who told you today? . Pass me the erm bread please? And what did he say? I think these chips are slightly thick dad. Alright. Er Cor! You could stop the door with here! Pass me the Flora again dad? You have to into the potatoes . There's a thing called the happy medium dad! Cor!! Mm. Mm. You better find out the train times just in case the weather turns. Yeah I will do. Aren't you gonna need the car? Mm? I need to know. I think the main part will be alright cos you'll be travelling down the A thirty four which is erm Good anyway. He's better off It's horrible! to go by train. In actual fact, that car of his being light, I mean a front wheel drive will probably be able to and being light probably be better served for getting out of difficult situations than the other cars. I'm gonna swap, Maurice, Maurice 's got a Citroen. Mm. Yeah. What's he got? Burgundy and cream one. What a two C V? Mhm. What, who does it belong to? I dunno. It belongs to her mum and dad. Her mum probably. This is good! value for money. Oh. Well I'd love to, if I get a choice I would loved to brought a brand new one. Well perhaps you will if we start to pay off . They make up an order . Oh. Ta. Didn't have much off my mum and dad. Oh! If you're running around locally and having a cheap motor now. Still have to be considered, you know. Th the , they, they slow down when there's four people in, a full load but Well, that Escort slows down when there's four people in it, full load. Well exactly. Aren't you gonna eat all of them? No. They're too thick and I've gotta my sausages. the chips are they? Mm. Because we've had to wait for them Yeah. I feel, I I was quite hungry but the feeling's gone off. Well they're nice . Do you like doorstoppers! He made an effort! I know. I was only joking! So did I. I opened the beans, cut the That's because cu cut the mushrooms up, did the sausages. Set the table which was unset, so I set it again. Ca , I'm going to make some carbonara tomorrow do you want to try some? Mm! Yeah. Ham and And we well we got, yeah we got some ham haven't you? Or are you, would you Mm. You put bacon actually well this is and sultanas nicest recipe. Bacon spaghetti, cream and Mm. and cheese. Cheese, Oh! cheese, egg. You know the one which mum had. Oh! The erm creamy one? Spaghetti one, yeah. Mm. Mm. Mm. Okay, yeah. Oh God! You haven't finished. Oh Louise absolutely reeked of garlic this morning! Who? Louise? Mm! Has she said anything to you? No. She doesn't know yet. Well she'll know by now cos Matthew's probably told half the college! But she Well didn't know. it wasn't like any secret! ? Yeah. I mean she's not gonna So what happened when you going to have the le , the lesson were you Well, I was already in and he came in and just erm I was here and he just suddenly came round that way and he sat down next to Louise and and he said how are you? I said I'm okay. You look good or something. And then that was it really. He chatted to Louise did he? Yeah. Why break the habit of the lifetime eh? Did he? What's wrong? Cracking! Maybe he didn't . Maybe. Erm, and he spoke to me later, a bit later, we had a row. God! Yeah. And then I sa , saw him at break. So he, when he came in he could of gone round that way and talked to you, or gone round that way and talked to Louise? I suppose so. It's a bit awkward though, I mean Yeah. It is really. didn't really know how to act. Well didn't like Louise tie him down? I know. Oh she stunk! She really did! She could do . You know when grandma says it gets in the pores? It does. I like garlic but not in that . I could look at that, at you all day. I mean, she keeps going through that phase. Has Catherine told you when she met Mary? Yes she has hasn't she? Mary? Mary . That's right, yeah. After granddad's funeral Mm mm? they Mary, I mean she come to the funeral and said she went up to Catherine and she said er oh this is your aunty and said, I don't you, you see That Derek's wife, yeah? Mm. So aunty Edith said I'm Mike's sister. And Mrs says this is Elizabeth's friend, Ange. My adopted friend. And Mrs erm, got in the , and said and I know who you are! And le , it turned out just because at one point Mary put erm . And it turned out that Mary was a big friend of Lisa's big si , you know, Christie? Yes. You know Mrs nephew, Peter? Well vaguely. Well Who's got the horrible children? No. No. No, they aren't. Well his wife Christine is You know that ? Mm. and his wife is a big friend of Mary . And it turns out Mm. that Mary er Mary's da , one of Mary's daughters and one of Christine's daughters, they're at the same college or something, they're big friends! Oh! Well there you go! Yep! Revolting! Not really. It's alright. Alright. The big bit goes . But they You don't have chips and sausage and that kind of thing. They se , they they, they them things I don't, I mean we don't have them much but do we really? No. I but I think, a bit, it's a bit too fatty for me. It's a bit too fatty for me actually. Anyway, I do think we should rethink the deep fat fryer. I think we should have a healthier lifestyle. Well if you re , it's actually good I think you wanna stop it really. Aha. That looks revolting! Look at the mess that's made there! You need to take the lid off. Look at that's egg. Could you bring me another knife? I wanna . Thank you. Thanks. Alright. I'm gonna . Got you one of those bone erm,one. Are they bone? Well plastic. Plastic! Oh! Plasticey . Did you have that when you were married? Mm. I feel quite sick now! I do. That's why I had an apple.. Did you fly, Fry and Laurie last night? No. Oh it was good. Never have a lesson with them! So much It only helps at lessons. No I'm only kidding! Oh yeah! Found they probably . Oh yes! That was the one! I didn't see that one . Well, it was, they had this son, this this young lad came erm Stephen Fry was playing part of the the fa Is that the hippy? No! Sorry! He asks you something and then when you start to Sorry! Sorry dad. so he was playing the father you see, and he asks his son to come into the study, and he said, but you do realise so , er that the Hugh Laurie is the son of his, you do realise that you were adopted? And he said, yes he did and . Erm some,i i , something about a pen knife wasn't it? And This is a talisman of Rabbara and things like this ! So he went, he went to . You're to go to Saffron Walden and then you're supposed to make friends and all this sort of, and he went through all this for about five minutes and this lad The wise man of the , fish! So he goes out and th and his wife comes in and she's how did he take it? He goes oh well, yes I think I think it worked cos I really I think like bugger off! I think it , like it worked, he said let the lying little sod or something ! Can I have a bit of your apple please? Not just a whole one cos I don't want one. Thank you mum. Saw the bit where, it's got like tha that where he's been, he said, I think it's because I had the, I smoked pot or something, marijuana once then I got I got busted or something and ! Yes. Oh! Could feed a large family on that chip for a week down in Ethiopia! You know that erm and of the famine in Ethiopia, and they reckon it's gonna kill even more than the one ninety eighty four did. Yes! They're all too complacent that's their trouble! The only thing is, at least the civil war is finished so er,wo once they get their distribution problem sorted out they reckon, sort of Erm, we're doing all about this in er E D S the other day and apparently from the pictures on the T V at the time everyone thought it was whole of Ethiopia that was starving, and it was only actually twenty five percent of the population. Because some of the areas are quite prosperous and they've got good farmland. They reckon have got the cows on there. No, that's the rain forest. And erm she bought in all these pictures of erm like, Ethiopia like the prosperous parts. Yes but the twenty five percent what they show, is pretty horrific wasn't it? Yeah , it was, and th erm but it's just saying it's not like that. And whe they you see, some people are trying to get the opinions of Ethiopia changed, cos like everyone seems to pity them and really, they should accept them and try and help them, but try and help them on, like equal terms. Mm. I mean, there's er Sudan who and other parts of Africa, and Bangladesh they've got er horrendous problems which are equally as bad! Yeah, because we're planning on shifting out . Well, you got your evening mapped our fairly well have you ? I'm not pessimistic about . Well they haven't. I mean, all the, all the respect Well As I say, it's it's from the to have respectability. But you know erm the, media at the time, you know there's a pic , there was a picture of the time of a baby who was starving and screaming. Yeah. Mm. Well, they would have showed a wider picture of the actual picture, and apparently they take,co , the photographers had taken a baby away from it's mother he's standing in the middle of a desert , and there's a picture of them with a baby and all these photographers photographing it ! Sounds a bit like that baby ! Yeah.! Oh he'll be splattered by a in Doncaster ! When you get a you get a dozen prisoners who are ! Mum we start Wednesday. you were pining upstairs. I wasn't pining! Yes you were. ! Oh fiddle. That's particularly dirty word! Oh God! He's gonna be quoting Fry and Laurie for the next ten weeks, like he did with Ben Elton! Is that granddad's watch? Yeah. I put a brand new strap, but the new strap was too dark for me. Too tight across the shoulders so I'm gonna have to Got me a large strap for it. You know if, that top that's too tight across the shoulders,Can I have it ? You can have it for five quid. Can't be bothered to buy anything. I owe you twenty quid. I even bought a top . Got any money? One, two Yeah, yeah , I've got the money. I owe you thirty pounds. I know. You said you didn't want it. I did not ! At the time. Do you know what though, I need to get some more money for the Devon trip in soon. I didn't say I didn't want it again. I don't want it I'm not I mean so When is that I could always that Devon trip then? February. What are you going to do there? God knows! Visit a nuclear power station and Oh that's interesting! and sewage works and things. Oh the jobbys! We did have a . Plenty of jobbys ! Yes. Did anyone fall in? No. We , it was when I went to, when I, we were doing something with maps when I was at school and they were trying to find out what, it was the, where the local rates where the money was spent for the local rates and one of projects was taken down the sewage works. Ooh it smelt! It was awful! And erm, we're gonna go but I paid, I've paid the deposit so It'll be a case of Just the I tell you what . But I er i , if you like, I can pay the thirty pounds and then that'll make us equal. Well let's have a think. Why? Do you know what she did? Yeah. Oh! She's made a big parcel up in the You don't honestly think that I couldn't help in carbonara do you? No, a bit of a stir while I just jump into work. Alright. I'll just put some of my money . This is going to be awful! Tuesday night couldn't we? And how much is with that? Only about four pounds. Er one pound . No, cos there's a pound. Bless you. Bless you. Bless you. Mm. I see. Were you, you know,we , do you on erm Were you on work, and we can work with this er, we for my dad died. Well, it came on erm it was coming on while er, you know the da , the day he died and I went into work? Mm. And it was coming on then, but I didn't think anything of it, cos I, I hadn't had, hadn't got anything to eat all day Mm. and I was upset and I thought it was just that but no, it was about two weeks before that I went down with it. I got my period due. Is that one got hole in it. Is that going to be no good? Have to be careful it hasn't gone off. That's okay. Chuck that one that over for me. Mm. Is this off? It smelt terrible didn't it? Yeah, well it would help, it needs parsley you see in it. I haven't got any, they wo , I couldn't get any fresh parsley so I thought that might just give it a bit of colour, but I've got dried parsley if you'd rather use that. Well can you chop it up? Thought I had done. Oh! Put dried parsley in next time. I told you, see! What's all in here? I want a little thing to crack into. Mm. In there. You haven't gotta separate the whites and yo yolks yet have you? Oh. Oh yo, blah blah. Beat the eggs with the cheese . It doesn't say anything about it being separate. No. Whoops! I'm not helping you do it. I'm determined to this you know. I put, well it's cos you'll be that's, that thing it'll be like prunes. You know with that that looks very creamy with the cream on it. Mm. Put it, oh yeah. So I actually had to buy the, the cheese. Oh!. Mm. Didn't she realise what a sacrifice when I asked him to make it. It smells alright. That's alright. Good! Pardon. Good. What time is Matthew gonna leave? Dunno. Presumably he's telling the girls today is he? Something? Yes. Is that to put this in? Er, well I'm not sure. I haven't made the sponge yet. Yeah, I think it's Well I'll , I'll put it in this one because if it will half smell Well I'm just trying ,co cos the cheese has got to go in there as well. I know. Just to make sure they haven't gone off. Well if that's gone off then you just have to Well it hasn't, but No it would but that one's gone It off. Yeah. So you put, you, that ones alright so you put it in there. Okay. Then you do another one and put that in there. Alright then. Heat the oil and fry the onion and garlic until soft but not browned. Add the butter and bacon and fry until crisp. Add the and simmer Right. till it has evaporated. Meanwhile Have you got that that Cup of tea here dad. cup of tea have I? Yeah it's here. It's over there. Cook the spaghetti in boiling salt water until just . Smells alright doesn't it? Then drain Yes. it with some hot water. Beat the eggs with the cheese and the parsley and season to taste with salt and pepper . Don't forget So I could actually start and do the ba , bacon actually couldn't I? Aha. Yeah. There a fair amount of parsley in there isn't there? Yeah. Yeah. It's only a small piece you know. It smells alright. Mm! You smelt it? Then beat it. Right. Two tablespoons of oil so Is it big enough? Yeah. I don't listen to what she does actually. She says it's quite nice. She said something about, she should have added or something but I can't remember what she said. What's Hello Jenny! Put two tablespoons of in. Mary, Mary, la la la la la ! Mary, la la la la la la ! Mary Do we need a salad? No. You'll need, yes well you'll need a sa We haven't got a proper salad, I shall have to start ju , shall I leave salad? Yeah. Leave salad for now love, yes. I got some gravy on. Oh yes, we can have some to mop it up, yeah. Er, now, I asked you the table set haven't I? No. Oh! Please can you set the table? Yeah. Are you going drippy then? No, I'm tired! Oh. No I Alright. So I'll save this one Where's the, where's the tray? That's already through there but it Oh! has to be set, cos your dad was using the table. Oh I see. Okay. Who are the Cadbury's Creme Eggs for? Oh! Er, I got them, Matthews cos he we , that's another one pound fifty he owes me. To give Mrs for the erm but don't tell anybody that I got them, you know. Cos To give to Mrs for doing the Yeah. Well he said can I, can you get me three erm Walnut Whips for Mrs and I'll give you money? Well they hadn't got any Walnut Whips in Sainsbury's so I bought some eggs, so . Oh! . Can I take the salt and pepper through or do you need it? Oh I'll , I need that as it goes. Throw them away. That's each So what, what we do here then Elizabeth is The garlic and the onions are done together. We'll do those until it's nice and soft as it said. Oh sorry! Erm Heat the oil and fry the onion and garlic until soft but not browned. Add butter, bacon and fry until crisp . So, see, so, I see so I've got to fry the bacon till it's what? Crisp. You've got to add the butter and the bacon and then fry them until crisp. Well how am I going to get the ba , how's, how am I going to manage to get the bacon crisp without getting the onions cra brown? Well it says add. So presumably you just have it on a low heat. I don't know. I think you'll find the bacon will cook erm brown Mhm. more quickly than your onions will. Alright. That's the right amount int Mm. it? Pardon me! Well yeah. That's on er with the spaghetti. You can start on it this year if you like Mike! Ha! Awfully sweet of her isn't it ! You know, I'm sure the bits of bacon isn't brown. It's not. This is the first one. It's not. ! The next time I'll just cook it! I don't suppose you gotta remember about all the which you should have, I mean they they just er be a, a sort of . I know. But they're Well dad being a peasant, well maybe Dad sent off some money to the erm Help the Aged hadn't you Mike? Have you? Yeah. They sent this thing through costs twelve pounds in a third world country to to have a cataract operation. Mhm. And it's, they've sent this piece of plasticey thing just to look through just the same effect as somebody who's Oh! got cataracts. Where is it? Been sent off now. But you haven't you got the plastic or anything? Yeah, the plastic's in the bin actually. But, no,we well I don't suppose they want the piece of plastic back. In which bin? Well the one in the erm In the living room? dining room. In the living room? It's the one in Dining room. dining room. Oh! Can I have a go? Not gonna make any difference to you, you're so blind ! Go on Jen! Go on! Go on! Do you want to go outside? Sling her out Elizabeth. Out you go. Sherry! Oh. She's gone out, out of her own free will. Oh they're terrible! Ooh! How awful! Just imagine it's twelve pounds Mm. . So you sent twelve pounds? Mhm. You're sure lovely! Mhm. We forgot to do it. We can't do this really till he comes in. Oh! He better not go to Cheryl's again! I think he has. I don't he er . The gammies! Mm. Does it taste alright? Yeah. Fine. And Vic sometimes puts mushrooms in his as well doesn't he? Oh! Not always. Could of done. Shall I see if we've got any? Well he doesn't always put them in. Well no , don't put out the recipe the way it is way, and then er add. Make sure that works then you can see if So much for creative cookery I should think ! Ah! Actually there's, there's enough liquid in here to stop this going brown. That's probably why you have to add the extra butter. Oh dear! My eyes! Losing my . I'm going to get cross! Ha! She said don't want everybody to . And then says Mrs . Oh! You can have the wine in . Oh. That's what I like to see, no Yeah. Then you say is that right? Oh morning Derek! You alright ? Mummy wants her baby boy home ! Still it may be unfashionable to go for the majority anyway. Have you just eaten Matthew's He's very sandwich again? Yeah. I think he did. He's perfectly clean though. Can I be , mix up the cheese and put the eggs, and put the milk. Well if it looks as though it needs a drop we can always pour a drop in can't we? I remember Ida said it needed something, but I can't remember what she said. Well I'll phone her, I can ask her if you like? No, it's okay. I know Vic has cream in his and How do you know? Well it said so on the menu, that's why. It said, the potato had some cream in it didn't it? And in the er It's ready now. Let me see it. go get some cream. Cos that's gotta be done . Is it cooked? Yeah. It tastes as though it is. See I don't want to get it too wet warm it up in a minute can't we? Mm. Mm! Is that finished? Mm. them two. Alright, I'll go upstairs then. Have you tidied your room up a bit? Yeah. Sort of. Alright. Oh it's still going. Oh God! No I'm do , making a right mess here. Yep. That's good. I've seen it down over there. That's, that's alright though. See I need a new map. I gotta come out. The amount of time I've Whoops! Can I ask a selfish question? Yeah. What's that County Down on? That's just here. And? I've got one left. Use that one. Have you got a to go with it? You want to go er so far there. I've got a dart, yeah I've got a name. Is it? To be honest with ya, I haven't got a clue. I don't know where the is. Stanwell, are they are a part? Stanwell, ask her there? No, yeah. That ought to go there. Like that one? Very quiet today. Ooh nice! Manchester, I think. Ye , well it's good. Well I thought Manchester is over No, Manchester's over there. This one is for me. Oh nearly everybody Is it? likes this one. Cos that's what, it's up the I dunno whether country int it? Towards there. I'll tell you where the next one is. It's probably along there. Part, near to that. Has anybody got any Blu-Tack? Yeah I got this. I mean not Blu-Tack, Tippex. Oh nothing. No. We never get any. Right. So that's only Terry. Yeah? Yeah, here's one I prepared earlier. It's on a bit. I'm all finished now, I can't do any more. What number's that? Erm, as you say How we doing folks? the er it's, you know Terrible! it's so . Hopefully on the Yeah fine. . Terrible! One, is the one up, did you say it was Wales? Everybody stop when you get to these two. I think so. Where have I put it all? I'm using your clip. Aye. There's no panic on. No it's not, no. I'll never get it done quickly. Not through me I'm not. That's what they said it is. Everyone just says look at he points . If we were doing that . Yes. Are we ready? Have we tried our best? I've gotta get something though. Where d'ya put er Oh I've got one , not put on. Ooh! Why haven't I got There's a few I haven't put on. I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. Go on, I didn't Stop. have anything. Stop then. Have you put your label at the top of the page? Oh no I didn't. No. Mm mm. Stop. Too late, done the test. Mm. Oh. Pass your paper one,pu , no, the other way to your right. Pass them to your right And then to the left. again. Oh! It's there then isn't it? And then to the left. Okay. Oh. And I want you to mark your colleagues' paper okay? This is gonna be fun for someone. You don't even know what you've put or something. Just with a tick and a cross. Can you Why? put the corrections in a Eh? perhaps a a Bloody hell! a bracket. Well I ain't telling you. Okay? I have no problem talking about you. Well Can you see those at the back? Yeah, I think you'll have to go round a bit. Nope. Let me take you through them. Ooh! Aberdeen. Yep. Mhm. Yeah. I'm going to go clockwise, yes? Mhm. Sterling depot. Number three, clockwise, Glasgow. Yeah. Carlisle. How many have got them all right so far? That's clockwise. Janey's got all of hers right. No, that's why I said clockwise. Sorry. Andy, will you put your line across there. What? What you got on mine? That's border of Scotland Andy. Oh right. I'll just move my border up, don't worry. Durham. Oh I see what you mean, I'm following the names clockwise, not the Yeah. dots on there. Sorry, er er Durham is next, sorry. On the right, on that picture is Bradford. Mm mm. You got that er Do you work in ? you do an extra one. What, are you ? No. Durham and Bradford. Oh God ! That's alright, I got Bradford wrong as well. The next one is Rotherham. Oh thanks. Gonna have more brackets Yeah you got in there . It's okay, I've got a photocopy of, of that one anyway. Leicester. That's good. Where's Leicester? Did you see your atlas? You got Rotherham and Durham on the, all in th the same one. Give him the benefit of the doubt will you? You crossed Rotherham out. Oh yeah. It's Durham there. Well never mind. Durham, right up Thanks. by Carlisle, near the Abbey. It's mapped out anyway now. You got Molesly twice. Mm. Thetford in the little East Anglian part of the country. Yeah. That's the big fat thing that sticks out at the side down there. Thing, right? A bit like me. Shaped a bit like me. Right. Next one down in the East Midlands is Wellingborough. How many have got them all right so far then? David. Only David. I take it you're marking David's? Yeah. Alright then. Well done David. Well you did something right at er school David. This is true. Luton. We're having companies on the . Right. We all got that one? No. No. Brentwood. Can you put in correct ple , in brackets, what the depot, the correct depot is at Collindale. Oh! What's that? I'll give that a strict mark, I think, that one . Hornsea. It's gotta be totally wrong. We're going round the M twenty five in Oh that a minute. that's wrong. The next one I've put Now, I'm going to go out to the east again with Maidstone. Hornsea Maidstone. Let's do that down there folks. Yeah, he's got them all right. Mm. More marks bit tied down to the limit now. Croydon. Okay. Heathrow, right about here. How are you doing on these, alright? Who? John? Byfleet. We're on the, near the M twenty five. Stanwell. Up just , just a little bit towards Byfleet. Now I'm going to take you to Southampton. Thanks. Yeah, I'll come, across Exeter in a minute. It's where the docks are that Ah. I'm trying to follow anyway. And then Exeter over in the west country. Off the coast line to Bristol. And in South Wales, Llandyssul. Llandyssul. Sorry, Llandyssul. I couldn't see I was so Llandyssul. far back. You get lovely don't you? Sort of, lovely, lovely little place there. Got something called the Pakistan, they don't give you a a . Don't they? They call it , but er I got told off for calling it Pakistan. Anyway,. Well they better not try telling me that . Milton, is in the Middle. Berkshire area. North. Show us where Birmingham is. After Do you Kathy the M four. we're doing well. I put, I put Nottingham. What has he got them right? I think that's right, I got Worcester. Worcester depot. Got that right That is sa ,sa south of those three, yeah. And you go up the M six vi , the M five to Birmingham. Oh oh! David! What a shame. London. Ah! Ah ah ah! I'm disappointed. Sorry. Yo , you mean you lost Birmingham somewhere? No he got Cannock and Birmingham mixed Oh! up. I tend to Easy done. er e easily done. Cannock is north of Birmingham. I had it north first, Stirling didn't I? Didn't used to be there though did it? No, not when I did it. No. Teesside. Yep. Manchester . That's a bit, er regionalist Sorry. isn't it? Are you gonna do the regional accents all the way round. Well I'll try. I like this part of the world now, I'm into this bit. I like watching She knows her way around. I like watching er All Quiet on the Western Front as well cos it all sounds And Coronation Street. Yeah. And Coronation Street as well. Ramsbottom. Nay worry . Yeah? And Belfast. I've, I've already covered Carlisle have I? Yeah. Terry rightly told me I went down the wrong I was looking for names rather than the dots. Carlisle's on the west. Surprise Surprise ! A bit harder than you thought? Yeah. We got seven there. I'm still . How many is there? I don't know. Twenty nine on there. Right. Still, seven out of twenty nine is What I'm saying is I got . Who got the highest score? Is er Does anybody wanna David. do a tot up? I must say I'm ashamed. What is mine? Oh oh! What's he doing on Are there four? David got this. One. Seven. Well mine's . Oh! He got How many's that? Is that, is that eleven? You could give him a half a mark there. Oh sorry. Write that. Is that alright then? I know I've put that on. Which one do you want ? Have you got erm Jane's Yeah, there you go. you've got Do I get a bonus point for getting everyone under the south east? A bit like I don't imagine cos you're based in London you got all the M twenty five ones . Yeah, I got the lot. How many That's right. or what was the highest score on the first one? The highest score? That's what I said. David. Twenty So? seven. Twenty seven? Well done Well done! David! Jolly good score! Next one down from twenty seven? Anybody got twenty six? Twenty one. Can David know his own roads, I don't know. Shut up ! Yeah . Twenty six? Twenty five? Have you counted them up so have you? Yeah? Twenty four? Twenty three? Twenty two? Yes I've got twenty two. Oh oh oh! Oh! Ha ha ha! Twenty one? Yeah. Oh! Three Yo! cheats. Yo! Three for twenty one. I won four games Twenty? last night. As I say Yo! Well done Justin. Purposely missing confused of The south east. I got them all wrong on purpose. Arsenal weren't down there were they? Two down the bottom. All the same Arsenal was . all the same side as the Watford Gap aren't they? I got Holland and Brussels right I mean, Holland and Brussels That's alright, I got all of them wrong as . Oh. What number, that was nineteen? I don't think that's logical thing. No. Eighteen? Ooh well done Carly. Not too bad for Mm. an indoor sales girl there. Cor! Oh that, even thought about that I'd rather have . Is fine. What was that, eighteen? Seventeen? Yeah. Oh. It's this neck of the woods I don't know. I think I'll have a . And London. It's in these neck of of the woods is it? Well my aunt got lost on, round here. Well Ca , Cannock Luton, Wolverhampton Yeah, that's where I got mixed up. and Maidstone, yeah. , do you ever go to . Don't you got to , you got Wolverhampton one of yours have you? Yeah I'm sure there is. There's some of the things you know Carly put on there. I had Cardiff didn't I? I went and put Cardiff on . Actually Manchester Don't sound so excited Carly. But a Wolverhampton's not. Erm, where were we down to? Eighteen was you saying Phil? Seventeen. Sixteen? Fifteen? For a southerner not too bad. I had something Fourteen? Thirteen? Ooh ooh! We've got lower than fifty percent now. Yeah , if it makes you feel better now they'd have only, cos Janey's was there? The rest of them still to go. I know, it's not too bad. Twelve. Ha! Ten. I had eleven. Just over half . That's okay. I'll save you going any further, I got below ten. I choose not to disclose. I make no excuses. My geography's terrible. I'd Eleven? Ten? Nine? Nope. Eight? Seven? Six? Five? Four? Also I had, put more than that. I got eight. Eight. Eight. Seven? Yeah, seven. Seven. Mm mm. Yeah, seven. Six? No. You need to look Ah yeah. you cannot talk about moving parcels around the country if you don't know where the towns are. You don't have to visit all those you didn't get Oh yeah. I think, in their own time at their own expense. That's right. Yeah. I just get my bunches of three the wrong way round because I know where they are. I think before we go. I know the Midlands is in the middle and the south is in the south and Not to your customers Might be some it isn't. Not Well your customers What's wrong? Well I know the north is in the north and the south is in the south I just don't know where the towns are that go with them. I know the numbers of the depot. No. You do need to get That's what we need to get very, very, you should have a national map in front of you. And not just you don't want just our depots, you want them in relation That's the thing you see the to their customers there. a lot of them places yo , they're not sort of like famous are they? You know Byfleet and Hornsea and They are to us. Yeah they are to us but They're extremely famous to us Justin. Manchester was a nobody until we put a depot in it. Hornsea is famous Justin. No, I don't mean that, I mean yo , it's not a popular,yo like a To start looking for Cannock Just because Byfleet on Saturday Byfleet doesn't have a premiere football team doesn't mean to say No. it's not famous. No. Aye. Cannock is famous for Tottenham. your Can I just say that the Manchester depot, actually in Manchester Yeah. Hornsea beat Tottenham. it's in Stockport. It's in Stockport. Yeah, it's not even in Manchester. I know. But you're right. So now the south east most of those depots that you're looking at Cannock isn't in Cannock. No. So, what I'm saying is they're just th , they're, they're, it's just for er The biggest place near it. the biggest place near it. Now what I'm saying is, is you ought to get very close to that geographical map because it's the logistic logistics er difficulty with getting, and you ought to know where there are mountains and where there are valleys and the fact that that, in South Wales they can't just go across country, they have to go back down the valley after the M four and up again. Cos we're driving lorries, we're not driving little, you know trial bikes that go over mountains like the Brecons and stuff, you have to But we do use the sheep in some ways don't we? That's right, that's right, we do use the sheep . But not for No. the sake of the . No, right. What what I'm saying is, you know, you can't go from Stirling to Aberdeen in a couple of minutes. That's big country up there. And so there's a big mountain range running up the middle of the country, someone thought once was the English Channel. Well that's okay cos we've got a tunnel now. Yeah, we got a tunnel now. Yeah. The English Channel, not the Pennines. But they're going where's the Pennines? Erm what I'm saying is I'd say I don't know where it is at all. I am saying to you now folks become familiar with the erm depots. Now what about the depot numbers? No idea. No. Forty nine. Not at all. Forty six. Forty nine. I'm gonna call them out. Write them onto your sheets. Aberdeen, thirty nine. Yep. And you have corrected your sheets haven't you? You've got all the right ones next to the Mandy's put them on a nice new sheet ain't ya? Yeah, well done. Aberdeen, thirty nine. Stirling, twenty six. Mm mm. Glasgow Forty five. Yeah, right. Carlisle Oh good,. forty four. Durham? Forty two. Bradford? Forty six. Forty seven. Rotherham? Thirty Twenty Twenty nine. Leicester. Forty three. Thetford. Forty one. Well done. Wellingborough? Hold on a minute, I'm still writing Thetford. thirty four. Th oh, four Four , forty one, Thetford. Hang on , hang on, you've lost me now. I'm lost. Wellingborough, twenty four. Newquay? Forty. Brentwood? Twenty eight. Close. Hornsea? Thirty three. Maidstone? Twenty eight. No. Oh no! Twenty three. Croydon? Thirty seven. Thirty seven. Well done, Dave. Byfleet. Eighteen. Stanwell? Eighteen was that? Sixteen. Yeah. Yeah. Eighteen, Stanwell, sixteen for Stanwell. Sixty? Sixty? Sixty for It's Byfleet eighteen, Stanwell sixteen. Sorry, I'm getting my tongue twisted round those. Exeter. Number, Adrian? Thirty one. Thirty one. Southampton? Nil. Twenty five. I've gone the wrong way round now haven't I? Sorry, but I'm going up it's the er Southampton's nearly up there. Bristol? Twenty on , twenty two? Well done.? Thirty two. Milton. Twenty one. Cos I'm just How come you know them all by number but you don't know where they are? I've dialled them that's why . Worcester? Twenty three. What's happened to Milton? I missed that as well? Twenty one. Twenty one. Milton. You missed that as well ain't you? Twenty one. Did I call it out? Sorry. Yeah. Milton, twenty one. My fault I think. Don't get, oh Mandy's getting her hair off here! I keep losing numbers. Oh my God! I've lost it! I've lost the country now, lost the numbers. Worcester? Twenty four? Se se , twenty seven. Birmingham? Yo! Double O five. Double O five. Cannock? Thirty four. Double O Double O Thirty five. Double O five. What was Birmingham? Double O five. Say that again. O O five. Why? Why has it funny number? Cos it one of the new places. Cos they're all funny numbers Mandy. Cos it's twice as . Ah right! Just don't worry about it. You couldn't get double O seven. Deeside. Where's Cannock? I missed that as well. Thirty four. The man in the back says so. Deeside, forty seven. Mm mm! Manchester? Forty nine. Forty nine. Forty nine. That was the last,, I should have been market trader, been shouting out that voice and That's, well He's like Chubby int he? Ramsbottom? Thirty. Belfast? Thirty five. Erm On Belfast I've been told, and and my oversight, beg your pardon, that erm I mentioned the four regional The branch that . managers. Because of the nature of that, that being across to water sorry, Phil, are you alright? It's alright. Don't worry, I did go at a pace. Because Okay. I talked about four regional managers, they were mainland U K. Er, Brian , is also a regional director for Belfast and the serving areas of Belfast as well, okay? He has sole responsibility for Belfast, but he does have regional directors going to but Brian tends to cover a general manager role and with with erm Dick ma ,. No, not Dick , who's in er Belfast? Tom, Tom . Yeah. And er himself, run the Belfast operation across all the regions. But sometimes, because he doesn't have hundreds of depots I think he's not regional, but that's my own fault. Brian is the Northern Ireland region. Well done. Do get a, er buy a map, spend some money to get one. You may have in your depot you may have in your depot a map which have pinpointed the T N T depots. Does any, has anybody seen one yet? Yeah. The big wa waterproof one which you can draw on? Yes. Yeah. They're, er, well they're not waterproof Well but they're coated aren't they? Er, so you can wipe them clean if er, you use a special pen. But, what I'm saying is, if you, salesmen particularly get one, you'll need one to get round the country your patch, but you need to get familiar with the towns up and down the country for deli , for delivery, cos your customers will talk about the area and you're talking to someone from a transport café, you haven't got a clue where the towns are. I mean, you know, where's your credibility? And write down erm it. I know north of border, nothing happens south of the border and like but, but we do deliver down here so do, do give yourself a little practise of that. Now I'm going to ask you to do another little test for me. Simple questions, ten questions, alright? Do you want ta , tidy up your little bit of paper out the way again? And there's ten questions about the conditions of carriage. Name on the top of the list. Now how many people have not seen a list of the carriage yet? Er erm Nobody. I think I have not. You haven't Paul? I don't think so. It's the of the company and fax it. I'll look in mine tomorrow. You think you have? See if I don't know by now see how you do. We won't, it's just a very casual sale. Well I'm not. Just think, use your options. This is so , you know so many days Yes. Yeah. Just use different options. Alright? Better put your name at the top of the page as well. We'll go through the answers anyway. Instead of just spouting at me, I'd just like you all to engage brain with . Do you do, I've got one wrong. Alright, just make some notes and stuff that you've got already. Right. I got lost . What happens in is you do have the people in that area in the first few weeks . . The customer is same there. The same as in C. . Finished? Pass it to your neighbour and once again. ? Well I've read a few of the , it's just a case of remembering the precise details. Cos I, I, know, I know it means roughly in common terms cos, I got a sister to interpret it. finishing her law degree. Alright. Come round the corner and that no it's not, it's pass, pass your one It's just remembering what's actually on the sheet. and then it's mine one, pass it down to Is it pass it twice? Yeah, pass it round again. T N T . Oh! No I'll do like this. Right. Well se , see what you can do just now. I can't specialize obviously. But having well a regional, a regional visits every once every how many weeks. Dunno. Just until we come through. Exactly right. Yeah I know. It's seven thirty. Did you do that? Yeah. Well they, well er, no it's feet U K national Let me just da dish this out. and it's Do you want to score that for me? centimetres for worldwide and Euro. Let's score the paper then we'll go through the er I'm sorry. I got number one. Ah? I sa I said I got number one. That's what I wrote but I thought, I didn't put that, it didn't exactly right . But still, if you , but definitely if you feel like that and it goes It's the T N T Express. I don't think it was right. It is! I could be wrong. Look! There! Oh. This is the trouble isn't it? But some are good, especially . Kathy, is it You might be buying more. Have you just got to sort of like the, these open to interpretation, or has it got to be word for word? Well we'll go through it Giving us the answers now? because, don't Yeah. Good one. do a tick and a cross if you, interpret it, interpret it the way you want to. If, if you think, hang on that doesn't sound right we'll discuss the answer as we go round and we'll have a group I've got the questions wrong here. Have another go then. There yours, take those. What's that? Give me a paper please? Mm. Yeah, that must definitely be right. It's up there? Yes. Right. Is that Well, it's a . If you're , I think there's only two wrong here. Just That's right. pick what you think is right. If it sounds right then put it up and we'll discuss anyway. Alright. Ha? Mm mm. You still add a mark if you put then, would you give us the same mark as before? Oh you've got to have that on as well? Well it's just a legal I think so That's a good idea actually Phil. Oh I'll tick that right, I don't care. That's right. Mm. Did you tick that? Mm mm. Mm mm. I give half for your number four by the way. I meant a fifteenth of the following I'd be, I, I'd be inclined to give a half. I meant the following month A half for one . but know why I did. I'm not gonna give him that , I'm gonna give you half. I'm sorry I can't give you that. Got a half of what . Got to be strict. It's not very good. Once you done the fifteenth , I bought you one. that's all What was this? going to. Definite. Well you give me one. Yeah you need, you need one. So would I . Give half for that one. There are some which is distributed, things distributed by a carrier ? Say that to me again, Phil. There are some which is to be distributed by a carrier. I'd say no, so he's right. Definition of a consignment? Yeah. Well I will accept that sort of answer. It is , the, this specific thing about it is from Yeah. one place to another thing. The one time, one load. Classified being a consignment. from one address to another if is the important thing. Yeah, plus it was The important fact was covered in that . Who's got that? I'll give you that. Oh yeah. So the , no two labels showing destination I could give people the last part , be careful in the second one. Okay let's discuss the, let's discuss the answers Yeah. Let's discuss the answers. Where's there's any discret Ooh! discrepancy, I wish I could take the dog's teeth out You should be able to know them all and put my own in. Let's see if we can clear up any discrepancy. What is the legal title of the company? Did anybody get it technically correct? It isn't just T N T. John? U K. No. Didn't get the question together. How many got the first one right? T N T Express U K John did. Ltd. Yeah. Wo oh! No , I put, I put Yeah, Janey did. carrier. Well what have you got in? You put the word the carrier? I just put carrier cos We , I understand what you're saying because yo , that's what it's used erm I'm looking, I'm from sort of like in the conditions. a legal point of view. Yeah. I understand what you mean. Danny's point is valid there because when you're reading a legal document, T, the T N T Express U K will hereafter be known as the carrier Carrier. he's put, so we wrote So really that's saying the title Yeah, the legal actually. title it does say. But I was just gonna say, it's understandable Mm. him thinking in terms and conditions of carriage. Yeah. Yo , you wouldn't have just put the carrier normally would you? That's what I'm saying, so er, just er interpretation of the question slightly misleading there. Right. No worries. What is a definition of a consignment? Now if you get these right, word for word you'll be er, I do conditions of carriage quizzes on selling skills courses and the amount of people that get this right I can count on one hand in the last three years. Who got it right? David. Word for word? What was the bit you did? Not word for word, now What did he say, please? He said, one or more items to one address. No, not comp No? No. not complete. What was the completed Andy bit? So did I Phil. That's not right. Andy's got it right. Oh! Er er, parcels, a number of package goods parcels packaged then together That's what it means and carriage but it's not the same. That's not the exact, not it either. Collect the packaged goods to be transferred from Oh I've got it. one place to another Oh stop it! consignment as agreed. No, that's not enough. What's mine No then? David is the no it's nearest one. Parc the number of parcels. that's what I put. A parcel or goods, goods or a parcel, or a number of parcels from one address to another At one time. at one time In one load. in one load in one load. That's Aha! i , those, those points are all valid. If there's I missed that. a group of parcels going in two loads it's two I put and I crossed it outside. Two loads. Consignments. Consignments. If it's going erm To different . to two different I got that one. addresses it's two consignments. That's what I meant. If it goes at different times, it's a different consignment. So in, parcel or parcels, going from one address to another at one time in one load that is a consignment. If you just say erm a group of parcels er er, in one load that's not enough cos it can be Yeah I know. part of a load. I missed out the from address to address. One address to one address. It's Yeah. quite er distinct what I di ,a what you'll be determined as. Cos some people er er may think, you know, the agreement because I have split the load you can still charge me the same price and it may not be the case. Right. Next one. What's the question ja Andy? What is the cus , sorry, what should What should the customer provide prior to the collection of a consignment? What was some of the answers there? Janey's put, name, address, from another consignment note filled out and service requirement and weight of the consignment. Yeah. So what we were looking for was something more er erm Did I answer that one? No. I didn't get round to it. Anybody get what we were looking for in the, yes you should? What should the customer provide prior to the collection of a consignment? Well obviously the delivery name and address is important and the consignments, so you didn't get that wrong but there was, what we were looking for as well a full written declaration of the nature of contents of any consignment containing dangerous infested, contaminated Aha. or fragile goods. In other words, is there anything, did anybody pick up You got that. Yeah, unusual I did. I might have given you one there, that looks good enough. Oh. Did you get that there? I did a part of it. Oh I reckon Justin's got enough cos What he's got times Time when ready, weight, number of packages, destination, and then haz Well done. Haz will do nicely for me. That's what we're really looking for, hazardous Yeah. goods. Well done. Because, how can I say Even, even I take we've, you'll see, I mean there's a, not a very good illustration of a, the hub with the yellow walls of the, the conveyer belt behind you, but you can see the fairly plain packaging that parcels come in. The more, er er sophisticated erm wholesale er distributors now know that people just pick up from stock a box don't they? And, they may have one display displayed, but if you go to somewhere like a warehouse or distribution where you go round and pick up your you can go to a garden you'll pick up a box that's illustrating a Flymo lawn mower or something and, and it'll, er they spend a lot of time and money on the packaging, but, a lot of people for pilferage reasons don't illustrate and that's good practise not to illustrate, from our point of view, what's on the package. But you must know what's in it. Just knowing the size and the weight isn't, you might, that's alright, that's only for the price what's in it is vital because if I asked the sales people from their top ten major customers what do you carry for them? Do reme , can yo , can I, can you guess at how many would say I don't know? Major customers. Half a dozen. It's a lo , I, I'd sa , they wouldn't admit it Bill, they might say something like erm oh it's electronics, but they wouldn't know specifically what electronic. Would that not cause er security problems if you put exactly what was on the box. You don't put , you shouldn't, but you should know. You should declare it. They should declare if it's hazardous, infectious, infested,i it will, what's word you used? Incestuous weren't it? Incestuous? Was that a word. Infested. Infested, contaminated Yes it is. or fragile goods. Dangerous,haz really, he should declare it, and people don't you know, unless you ask. Right. Right. Next one. What is the customer obliged to provide da to load and unload a consignment? Who di , who got the answer? Not exact. I, er I said suitable lifting or moving equipment. I'd accept that. Plant, power or labour. Moving equipment then. Yeah That's I got that one. what I said to you. Ah! I got that. Did you accept it Paul? It got one. Yeah. Yeah, you did? Yeah about lifting equipment? About power lifting equipment. Yeah I'd accept that. Cup of tea for the driver. What we actually put Cup of tea, sustenance , yeah. What we actually put is, er, it is the responsibility in the conditions of carriage. It is a responsibility. Where would you find the conditions of carriage. On the back of every erm contract out there. On the back of every contract. Because it is subject to the conditions of carriage that we accept their business and therefore we have to provide them with written information. Now, it is down to interpretation i er er and, it, on your next courses you may do a more in-depth conditions of carriage quiz which will ask you to study the conditions of carriage at night and produce a bit more detailed answer in the morning, but we're not gonna expect you to do that on this course. Erm, number five erm can you read that out for me Mandy? What, sorry, go on. Go on. When would you cube a consignment? What did you put Bill? What did Bill put? That's a very good answer then. It's one I could think of. Gets me out of trouble that one. I got one. Did anybody get that one right? No well I, I I thought when the mass I sa er is greater than the weight. You know Yes. That's right. Cos I put like I put if you're taking six foot of film it won't weigh much but it'll take a lot of room up. That's fairly accurate that. I just put if you've got Oh you're having that one are you? if you've got a load , if you It's a good point. if you've got a er More consignments on it. dead we or gross weight Yes. Well and the big package that would have meant then it go in , in a large That's correct. dimensions then you cube it. We're gonna do cubing in a minute, do a few exercises on cubing. Yes, I mean,Je Mandy said er, if we've got any consignment which exceeds one point five cubic feet per ten kilos. But you usually know don't you if It's lower than that actually but er sorry Mm mm. it isn't. I, I said, yeah a cubic foot, is se , six point six then. That's probably right, yeah. One point five per ten kilos. You can usually tell when you get used to it and we're gonna talk about visual identity in a minute, but when the mass seems greater overly large to the weight is what er Jen , sorry Mandy said, and I think that's a good er er a good er analogy there. I got if erm, if the size is greater than the weight actually. Yes. I got that. I'll accept that at this stage alright? Next question is, what's number six? Who can read it out? Er six . Can't read that word. Notional. Oh! Ha. What notional weight is used for cubing? Six point six per cubic foot. Did you get that right? I did, yes. Mm mm. Yes. What notional weight? Did anybody get that right other than, Dan? Mm. The man. I, I put one, one Janey got it right. ton per cu , well it's per cubic metre I know. Yes. because in my last job that's Three feet. how you worked it out, we didn't work with feet. We worked in metres. Getting you excited now Bill. Yeah, well he does it all the time. It's only twen , it's only twenty six point six two. Is it? Yes. I dunno, I mean, I got A metre, no , it's not a ton. And if you do a cubic metre, in my old Yeah but yo it was one, it was like one one ton per cubic metre. That's when you used to work in weight and measure though isn't it? Yeah. We do , plus a thousand They did kilos per metre squared? Yeah, if you work on , is it, is it always on cubic feet or do you actually do it on metres? Well We always wo we tend to go back to feet I must say. Yeah. But I don't know why? Unless it's Euro or international and then it's in metres. What are you refer , what are you referring to that one, that, what does that That's for loading containers? That's what you ship in . Yeah that's for international you see. Oh right. It's a different one. I didn't realize I was No. international. No. It's not the same. That's what containers do don't they? They seal containers and export it to different er ratio. But the cubic idea is the same, but it's six point six cu , kilos per cubic foot. So a metre would be about three it's a cubic metre. We'll work on that one. Gotta be nine , Nine. nine Nine. cubic metres in a metres yard. About the same sa , in ten. Mm. It's about the same. What I can't understand is Not a ton. is why we mix, why we mix the measures. Neither can I. We've got kilos for the weight, and we've got cubic feet. Mm. Mm. Mm. Mm. Terry do you wanna re-write the cu , the cubing manual? Please. Make it simpler. Maybe then I'll get it right. Make it simpler for the new babies coming in. No you didn't, you got it wrong. Oh right. Er, seven. To what extent is T N T liable for indirect or consequential loss? I'd say we were Answer? . No. Anybody get It's not. it right? Yes. Yeah. I got one of them. And a show of hands. Does everybody understand A lot of people. what consequential loss is or indirect loss? You lose the parcel but it's end up for example in the, they used a contractor at the other end because we lost the parcel but they're not responsible for that. We'll just take the blame for it. If, yeah, we don't And erm insure documents anyway. We don't er offer transit liability on documents because we only that is a flat piece of paper to us, it isn't a valuable item. We don't con , the, you know, what the arrangement is. Mm. If it's your marriage contract and you don't get married because you don't got, that's not our fault. We just cos we don't ins , it's only a piece of paper to us, you see. So documents do not get transit liability on them at all. And tenders and deadlines can be particularly sensitive to that, but you cannot offer transit liability. But even if this tape is going to record the last speech of somebody famous and it didn't get and therefore they couldn't record it, that is co , the consequence of a delay, you know, a fall of snow or our vehicle breaking down or something not being done, or missed some in human, some human error, it's not our, we don't lay, we'll give, we'll insure or offer transit liability on the value of the goods providing you've got additional full transit liability with us, but we won't for the loss of business because you didn't get it. Is that, can anybody think of a, a courier of documents, it's still the same. I think that's why super mail offers on large goods. Mm. It's better than one. Mm. Mhm. Yes. No we don't do ta , erm the conditions of ca , there's, there's a slight sort of on conditions of carriage for the same day operation but, not in that league at all. On super mail, if that item doesn't arrive in a set time Mm mm. what do you make up for, just their postage? It might be more mightn't it? The consignment or Yeah. the nearest nearest service value. If they send out a document that weighs a kilo for tapes and they sent that one, they're losing twenty It'll lose it's value rather than say if it doesn't arrive at a set time That wouldn't make any difference. then it's covered for them. It's E Just the consignments. Class E. With post, yeah. I'm talking about Yeah sorry If it, if it was like you say Yeah. if they us , if they use a contractor That's what they're, what we're saying. You might, you might get And that sort of from the policy. you might get it No. for nothing. Well er Cos but erm But they still go there now. Yeah I know, but our sort of van What would it cost? or Like carrier like the local land owner at the House of Lords can do that. I'll buy you a . Yeah but, she didn't say these are all wrong once I look at Yeah. the board. Paper. Most of them would cos they are going like far And everyone's . You've seen people see We only, we only insure I didn't say what the license is. we only insure for the intrinsic value of And is there any situation the item. That's all. Right. But you guarantee them delivery. Yep. On the piece of paper. I know but you've lost the . We give them their money back. I mean, well it'll probably arrive, it'll turn up somewhere won't it really? But se Could do. I mean send another one is what we're saying, have your money back. If you haven't got the you should be okay. Or if it arrived, if you paid for a before One customer should expect it to arrive then noon and it er I mean, same ta super mail, we wouldn't give them their money back. I think that's a bit more than that now. But if you ordered a ten thirty delivery and it arrived before noon, we would just give you the money difference the before twe , ten thirty and the before noon price, not the complete price. Unless you wanted to argue about it. But we feel that, okay, you know, it may have been a half an hour late but you got there. And therefore, we have incurred cost and therefore, but okay, it wasn't the guaranteed service. But you could argue with us, you know. And again, a commercial decision is made locally based on the strength of the account. But we don't, you've gotta be careful as you probably know Phil, the abuse can of the ca , you know, carrier, you know, can be a nice little earner if you're not careful. And, you know, erm people can intend to fail in order to claim money, revenue back, and so on. D'ya know Or damaged goods can, you know, put the foot through it to get the insurance cover on what we pay and we're liable. So you've got to be very, very, very careful. Having said that if you, there's been a court of law we'd prob , if, they'd probably erm sustainability, viability, as in a conceptual sense, and I would also like to suggest that in pushing this discussion forward we ought to bear in mind the, how shall I say it, the principles as espoused by the Department of the Environment in their planning policy guidance note three, er and in particular those spelt out in paragraph thirty three. And those if you would, for those who have not got them available, erm, we can have them copied and obtain them for you, but I suspect all of all of you sitting round the table will have P P G with you. . Anyone short of a copy of P P G three, paragraph thirty three particularly? It's the one prepared for the submission . For those tha who are not to familiar with, the initials P P G, it stands for planning policy guidance, and there are a whole series of these guidance notes produced by the Department of the Environment for the er advice guidance of, well not only the local planning authorities but anyone else who is interested in the development business, and they are expressions of, I suppose government policy, er and their attitudes towards various aspects, whether it's countryside, housing,trans or transport, and they do pro provide a useful backcloth, in fact an extremely valuable backcloth to the way in which er this matter should be considered, erm I know from the submission which North Yorkshire County Council have used they would say that the fact they haven't had regard to all this er, but I would like to carry on the discussion against that background, and could you direct your thinking at this stage about the need for a new settlement in the light of the principles spelt out in P P G three and particularly paragraph thirty three. Now then, can we proceed to Mr Brighton. Sorry, Mr Donson first? Yes, thank you. Roy Donson, House Builders' Federation. I think I'd like to start by making a few general points, er and then er it will be a matter for for others to to be somewhat more specific, I I I think I can say that the issue of a new settlement of a new settlement in Greater York is is a fairly unique situation, because we have agreement between the development industry and the County Council, and that's something of a rarity, but also we have mild support from the Department of the Environment, and as Mr Davis has already said, that is backed by public support. I think it should be remembered that that public support actually was against a requirement of one thousand nine hundred dwellings, which is not quite the proposal being put forward by the County at the moment, but it is clear that there seems to me n not to be any public or great strength of public objection to the sort of proposals that are now before you in this enquiry, and it also seems to me that the reasons behind erm that that public support are essentially because it meets the first requirement of paragraph P P G thirty three, that the alternative expansion of existing towns or villages will represent a less satisfactory method of providing land for new housing that is needed, I think that is the essence of the public support, and so first of I think you can say that that's that means that first criteria, and certainly it seems to meet the second automatically because it an expression of public preference. From the Federation's point of view, er I have substantially difficult, a difficulty, in guiding you as to where the new settlement ought to be, because in effect I would be choosing between members, and that is a certain route to my unemployment, if I were to do that, and I don't wish to be unemployed. Therefore I am not able to suggest to you, and haven't been able to in my evidence which district even a new settlement er ought to go in, but I have to say that if it were part of your deliberations that you should choose a particular district, er then it is not part of my submission that you should not choose a particular district, but my bottom line is that the policy wording should at least ensure that there is commitment to a new settlement and it is inescapable on behalf of the district planning authorities, the last thing that we would want is the possibility of going round the districts, and the last one to produce a district wide plan is the one that has to get the new settlement, that seems to be a gen , fairly unsatisfactory way of proceeding, and each one should have to consider that as part of their certification process. If I can then turn to er some of the issues that were w w w were were raised this morning, York and others, and other other others in their submission laid great store on P P G thirteen. Can I remind you that it is a draft, and it is a consultation draft, it is not Government policy. And ministerial statements have actually indicated that it's not likely to appear, as a final version, until next year at the earliest, and so it would seem to me that there's a great deal of thought to be gone into the precise wording of that P P G yet, and to rely on quotes from it wou is, is, is at best er, misleading, and I think we ought to bear in mind something that Mr Curtis mentioned this morning, that in fact the change that happened between draft P P G three and the final version, it is quite possible that the final version of P P G thirteen could be substantially different from the Can I, can I interrupt at that stage . and say, do you find nothing of P P G draft revision in P P G twelve? Yes I do find that there's a general thread,an an an and and one would expect that, what I'm what I'm guarding against is taking too much notice of precise quotes from from from P P G thirteen. I think also we ought to be guarded about too much detailed discussion of travel distances, we are talking here at most of travel distances of between six and ten miles, in keeping with the policy, erm it seems to me that erm if we we spend too much time on trying to determine whether six or ten miles distant, is is there any great significance in terms of the global environment it would be at least an unproved case, one way or the other, but also there seems to me to be a clear conflict in those who are trying to say that the new settlement proposal falls because not large enough of a site is being proposed, one way and another. It would seem to me that if you've got to prove a case that there that it is the place of last resort, and that place of last resort has got to be at least five thousand dwellings, you are in a place where there is absolute massive growth of demand, and improbably no one has been able to meet a five year supply of housing land, if you are to meet it in the term, if y if those are the criteria to meeting the terms of th of this sort of plan, and in fact what I would submit is that a new settlement solution is very much a part and parcel of a long term solution, and that's where essentially the County strategy is quite right in proposing a new settlement in the context of the greenbelt, because also greenbelt is a long term solution. We've got to look at it in those terms, and so it is not necessary in my submission for anyone to prove at the moment there is at least five thousand dwellings short, erm that that is something which ought to be considered over a much longer time period. I think that what we have to decide today, or one of the things that needs to be decided is, is the new settlement in the longer term a sensible answer given that all the all the various considerations, and that erm arguing about residual numbers, here or there has to be taken in the much longer context, I think that's what all I would like the to say at the moment on on new settlement erm because of the situation I am in of not being able to er say too much in detail about it, I shan't be making very many contributions to to this particular debate. Can I come back Mr Donson, or will that, and I take it, alright, I understand the point you are making about the long term solution and size, but if the panel were to be persuaded that to be a viable solution the settlement had, in the end, and I'm not going to define where the end is, almost certainly beyond two thousand and six, that the settlement would need to be of the order of five thousand dwellings. Do you consider it important that we take that into account now, not least because of the, although it's well beyond the plan in its entirety, where the new settlement might go, and its its acceptability in environmental terms, depends in part on how big it is, there may be some places which could easily take fifteen hundred dwellings, but could not take five thousand? That seems to me to be a consideration which may be able to address in general terms by yourselves, but depends very much on the individual proposals, and and erm is is a matter of detail of the individual proposals, I'm sure that you don't want presented here the the fine detail of of individual proposals Indeed not. but it, but it maybe, it it would seem to me if that is a consideration of yours, that might be something that you reflect upon in y in your report, but it is it is not a necessary er requirement that, er that be part and parcel of this particular E I P. Thank you. Mr Brighton. Paul Brighton, Barton Willmore Planning Partnership. Can I say first of all that er I support the general approach which has been adopted by Yorkshire County Council and the the other local authorities in the Greater York area, on the way in which they've formulated their proposals for the York greenbelt after a fairly long erm and exhausting process, the question to which I want to address my comments first of all is whether the new settlement is an appropriate and justified planning response, and what I would like to do if I may is look at some of the reasons that have been raised erm in objection to the new settlement as a strategy, erm these issues have been raised by Hambledon District, York City Council, the C P R E, Montague Evans, in their written submissions to the examination of the . First of all, erm, if we c could, erm, the question of need. The first element of need is erm the various estimates of commitments of potential land, erm and the argument is, erm, that the additional requirement can actually be met within the inner area, now we covered that at some length this morning, and refer to what we've had said on that in a bit, I don't propose to repeat it. Likewise, part of the argument also revolves around possibility that in additional land within the inner greenbelt boundary, and again you've heard our argument on that this morning, and I don't propose to to repeat that. A new point that I would make, however, in many of those arguments which relate to the impossible, or alleged availability of additional windfall sites, and land on the inner greenbelt boundary, but I think the analysis which is er carried out is a simplistic one, because it solely relates to residential land requirements, there is no erm attempt to erm bring into the equation whether there is land available for the related employment necessary for that additional residential development, whether there is land available for schools, shops, and Mr Davis's recreation uses, and so on, and all those will very considerably increase the amount of land required to be released to support residential development, wherever it is located, and that is something which I believe has not been properly taken into account. The second major issue which I believe had been used against the new settlement as a an appropriate Greater York area, is that it's inconsistent with erm current recent central government planning advice, and basically the argument is that the proposals for the new settlement are contrary to er planning policy guidance notes three and twelve, and draft er P P G thirteen, if I can deal with P P G thirteen first of all, and the observation of Mr Curtis that the new settlement is a last resort, erm now I could find no reference to that at all erm in P P G three, or even a sentiment that at planning policy er that a new settlement should be regarded erm as a policy of last resort. My believe is what P P G is inviting local authorities to do is be cautious in proposing them, they should not be regarded as a first option, or an easy option, they should be cautious in proposing them. Special circumstances are required to justify the er proposing the new settlement through the local plan structure planning process, and I believe that is exactly what has occurred over the last five years, and if I could just quickly run through paragraph thirty three of P P G three, and the your invitation for us to comment on the criteria set out there, first of all the first element, the ex the alternative must be erm seen to be a less satisfactory method of providing land for the new housing that is needed, that is the essence of what has occurred in the process which the County Council has undertaken over the last couple of years, all of the policy options available have been examined in great detail, have been subject to public consultation, public participation,d I believe clear view was that there were erm constraints operating on York which meant that not all of that additional development accommodated in the adjacent to the existing er York city villages surrounding York. The second requirement is that it should be a clear expression of local preference afforded by the local planning authorities, my I think the fact that it has been promoted by the Greater York authorities, albeit some of them have erm taken a slightly different view of late, I think that is clear expression that the local, that the new settlement proposal does have a substantial local support. The third element and the fourth element erm I I think relate more to location questions to do with the new settlement, and I propose to deal with those under the legal heading of two C, the next item is that the proposal can be considered alongside policies of restraint, and that is exactly how the proposal for the new settlement has emerged, it is a response to the er proposed greenbelt around York city, and obviously we can put in the greenbelt that there is severe erm policies of restraint operating at er on on the terms of new development. Finally, the last consideration, again I believe that to be a location question which I propose to deal with under the heading two C. So the new settlement is one element of a comprehensive approach to development employments in Greater York. I would make the point that it has taken thirty five years for us to reach this point where we have comprehensive strategy for York, we have battled with er various greenbelt boundaries in the past, I think there has never been erm a total review development plan requirements for the Greater York area, no more of its implications on possible greenbelt boundaries, we now have that and the greenbelt local plan, Southern Ryedale local plans are being progressed on the basis of that strategy, and there are other plans in the pipeline. And I think the special character and position of the York as one of this country's most important historic, historic towns fully justifies the exceptional step of new settlement. The second planning policy guidance note which erm the new settlement tracked as was the policy guidance note number twelve, and I wonder if I can grapple for a moment with the S word, sustainable. It's a word which everyone is using and it's almost like confetti. I I'm not sure that we've had a very helpful description of what sustainable means, erm I suspect people use it in different ways and ther there is no er er common usage established of what it means here, there is no dictionary definition. I've scoured the the technical professional press to find out if there is some general statement which sums up what sustainability means, and the one which I've seen most commonly referred to, I think, and the government has used it in this way, is a requirement to ensure the needs of the present generation are met in a way which does not prejudice future generations, now I do not believe that a properly conceived and located new settlement is any less sustainable in the long term that other forms of urban growth, and by properly conceived I've got to say I believe that to mean properly balanced er form of development for the new settlement, and I think I would say that new settlements have usually been proposed because continued infilling, like the the normal forms of accommodating further development requirements, infill, and peripheral development, have been determined in York context not to be sustainable, the sorts of issues which arise as a result erm of additional development in or on the edge of York and the surrounding villages, problems of additional congestion, loss of green space in towns, loss of employment opportunities and so on. And finally I can just look at erm draft planning policy guidance thirteen, it is very easy to lift one or two sentences out of either the draft planning policy note, or indeed the Ecotech report which underpins it, erm, I think if a full reading is made of that, what comes across strongly in the research is that there is a very complex relationship between urban forms and transport patterns, and indeed erm I think the advice in P P G, er draft P P G thirteen is prefaced with a note that erm, transport issues are, will be erm, there are very few general principles, if any, and local er considerations will influence the er the importance of this iss issue very considerably, what I think draft P P G thirteen does invite us to do is to more overtly look the transportation implications of alternative settlement patterns, and that's all. And at the end of the day transport matters are only one consideration which need to be taken into account in considering alternative er locations, and it may not be the most important. And finally, if we can look at erm, I think the C P R E have raised this, that erm the new settlement i er would would be inconsistent with erm regional sub-regional planning strategy. First of all if one looks at the draft advice on the erm regional plan guidance prepared by the Yorkshire and Humberside local planning authorities, they in fact advocate new settlement as an appropriate circumstances, there is not a policy which says that they are not appropriate or are inconsistent with other policy objectives, and I note in that respect that the D O E as Mr Donson said, are mildly supportive of the new settlement in the Greater York area. There is some comment has been made that a new settlement to the South or the South West of York would in some way undermine the urban regeneration erm of Leeds City Council, now I find this a surprising comment given that though people who are making that comment are also at the same time advocating much increased development allocations to, for example, Harrogate district, the main centre for which is erm, nearer than most conceivable new settlement locations to the South and South West of York. In addition I think there's some inconsistency, because within Selby district, for example, a lot of development which has been advocated in the past and is likely to be allocated in the future is in places like Selby or Sherburn in Elmet, which again are much nearer to Leeds erm than potential new settlement sites to the South and South, South West of York, and yet objection has been raised to er that particular erm element in the planning strategy for Selby, and I I can't see the reason why a new settlement should be treated in any different way to any other form of development in that sense. Now you've also invited comments on er the question of whether one settlement is appropriate, and the size of the settlement do you want, would you like to take my comment Well I was trying to stick with the size as an expression of whether the concept is one that should be pursued, and whether that influences the pursuing of the concept, can we can we leave the, the number of settlements till, till later on? Right. I think erm there is some dispute as to erm what size the new settlement must be to become what's termed an integrated and balanced community, and given the importance of this issue, and it has been with us for the last three years, ever since the new settlement was first proposed, erm I find it very surprising that North Yorkshire County Council have not undertaken any work of their own on this subject area, and have relied instead on a a residual approach to to find the new settlement size, and I must say I find that very unsatisfactory, what North Yorkshire County Council are inviting you, erm, to accept is whatever size the residual for Greater York is, you know, has been in the past I should say, proposals from the public, from the private sector have come forward,an and the County Council have used those proposals as confirmation that the new settlement of that particular size was viable, it's a sort of self fulfilling prophecy, now I think that's unacceptable, what they haven't done is the second part of the technical exercise, which is to to look at the thresholds of the various services and facilities required in the new settlement. Now I am able to say that Barton Willmore has done this work, and it has submitted as part of our submission to the E I P, and in summary what I would say is that I believe that that work demonstrates that the new settlement has to be in the order of two thousand to two thousand five hundred dwellings, to begin to achieve the environmental objectives set for the new settlement, and also social objectives which would also be important to the residents of that new settlement. Now North Yorkshire County Council er I think in their statement look to erm to existing market towns to provide what little evidence they can up to justify fourteen hundred dwellings, er I think that's again a simplistic approach because by definition the market now can seal them up wider catchment area, many of them are some distance from York, and the settlements concerned provide a service base for a number of surrounding villages, and therefore the actual specialities and services found within that particular settlement are greater than one would achieve if it did not have a large catchment area. But finally, I would like to make one comment about the er the residual approach used to define the new settlement size. I think there is a tendency erm for local authority planners to to have horizons set by the end date of the current plan period, and work, try and work in that, sort of around the real world I think, where nothing happens, or nothing is conceivable, beyond that time period, erm, this particular approach, er does not work in the case of new settlements, there is no need when having established your design size for a new settlement that it necessarily all has to be built within current plan period, and I think this sort of approach is recognized in Cambridgeshire where, in case of the A forty five new settlement, a view was taken at an early stage that a new settlement of three thousand dwellings was needed to meet long term development needs in Cambridgeshire, an area where the planning issues and problems where very similar to those of York, and the approved structure plan in policy proposed that new settlement to be designated as three thousand, of which two thousand portion would be built within the current plan period, so it seems to me that the the question of size need not be an impediment to erm designation of a new settlement if the existing requirement and need are adjudged not to require the sort of new settlement size that we are creating. Thank you. Thank you very much. Mr Brighton, erm before I turn to another speaker, your comment about the location of a new settlement, and the likely effect it would have on the West Yorkshire conurbation, er I presume from what you've said is that effectively the new settlement, if you have one, its location should be such as to serve the needs of York and Greater York, and therefore the further it is away from the West Yorkshire conurbation, or the West side of North Yorkshire, the more likely it is to fulfil that function. I think that the new settlement erm should be as close to York erm city as can be achieved, the erm question of the detailed location er I think is a matter for erm discussion on the basis of the other planning policy guidance erm criteria which I haven't explored terms of the locational criteria, what I was seeking to do in my comments was erm to counter a point which has been made er by the C P R E which refers to new settlements as an engine of growth, now that's not the purpose of this new settlement, it is a response to the needs of meeting Greater York, and I don't see any reason why that's less likely to be achieved if it's South South West of York, than anywhere else around the circumference of York. Given that planning cannot dictate that people live near to where they work, I'm not sure I've yet grasped why it is that the need to Greater York need to be met near to York,the these needs to rise from a complex pattern of people moving in and people moving out, individual decisions as to where people live in relation to where they work, what's the magic of having the new settlement near to York? And perhaps this is this goes to a wider point of what's the magic of the definition of Greater York area? That not just a question to yourself Mr Brighton, others may wish to comment later. May I answer first? Paul Paul Brighton, Barton Willmore. I think it is erm Greater York that has been seen as an area with special problems because of its er historic character, erm which we spent many hours debating at the York greenbelt local plan inquiry, and I think most participants there accepted that the er what was being protected was not just the historic core, but also the setting of York and its surrounding ring of villages, and the way which it is proposed to protect that setting and character is by a greenbelt, now it follows that if you are imposing extremely severe restrictions on new development in an area around a settlement, then you have to meet the legitimate development needs for that settlement in another location, the further away that new settlement or other policy response is located it seems to me the less likely it is to meet the er needs of that settlement, and that will give rise to erm, you know, additional pressures on the settlement you are proposing to protect and maybe those pressures could not be resisted, and I think that's why there is this requirement that erm the development which might otherwise be built on the edge of York, but which is not proposed to be so built because of the greenbelt needs to be located close, as close to York as is consistent with the original environmental objectives greenbelt objectives for the greenbelt. Can I carry on throwing pebbles into the pool? Thank you. Planning theory about the right size for towns is not good. Isn't there an argument which says if you're trying to protect York and its setting that the further you actually move the development away from it the greater the protection you afford it? I think erm there is a erm a size issue that enters into that particular consideration, erm clearly erm if you build a small new settlement very close to an existing large settlement, then the prospects for that being reasonably self contained are much reduced to that of a larger new settlement in the same location, and I would agree that the further in in general the further you move away from an existing centre then the likelihood is that that settlement will become more self contained. Can we,ca But, sorry. Go on. There is an additional aspect that erm we we must look also, I think, at the viability of the services and facilities, er, within the new settlement, if the new settlement is, for the sake of argument five hundred houses then my submission is that that really offers no long term viability for any facility or service, erm, clearly you might get a primary school if the new settlement size was of the order of eight hundred to a thousand dwellings, but you would not get any sizable retail element, and so however far that settlement was located from the main centre they would still become dependant on that centre, and that's why I think it's important to recognize that if you are to achieve the erm if you like the balance of requirements, of achieving erm a reasonable degree of self containment within the new settlement, but also meet the needs of York, it has to be a reasonable size, but located as close to York as possible Thank you Mr Brighton, I'll leave my point until later. Mr Timothy, and then Mr Brook. Paragraph thirty three Can you introduce yourself Mr Timothy, please ? Yes. This is for the sake of record, the record. Right, this is Chr , Christopher Timothy from Wood Frampton. Starting off with paragraph thirty three of P P G three,, erm you'll see in my statement that I've actually in seeking to address point A dealt with each of the conditions that P P G three er refers to, for which a new settlement should be contemplated, and you will see that I've reached a conclusion that having regarded the unique circumstances of York, the Greater York new settlement does represent an appropriate and justified policy response, you'll se also see my statement, I've taken some comfort from the fact that the good practice guide that has been published by the department of the environment, has endorsed the approach that North Yorkshire County Council has taken towards the special circumstances of the Greater York area. I don't know if this means that the North Yorkshire structure plan now has the equivalent of an Egon Ronay recommendation. The the particular point that that I wish to pick up on though was from M Mr Curtis and his reference to erm the draft P P G thirteen, and whilst I'd say that the point of the H B F that it's only a draft publication at this stage, there's in my view been too mu much over reliance on the reference in there to self containment, you see if we look at that particular paragraph, two point one two, it actually says avoid the development of small new settlements which are not to, sorry, I'll start that again, avoid the development of small new settlements which are not be likely to be well served by public transport, or which will not be largely self contained. It's not an and situation, it's an ei it's an either or situation. So by implication if you c if the new settlement is capable of being well served by public transports, then that is se a a satisfactory situation. I take in my opinion the size, scale of settlement that is being pursued by erm North Yorkshire is of sufficient size, erm my experience erm are twelve fifty to fifteen hundred new settlement is sort of of a size that can sustain a reasonable balance of community facilities, I think in looking at the new village and in the context of P P G thirteen its highway implications, we see from table one of er Mr Curtis's supplementary statement that public transport, I E bus and train, in terms of journeys to work to the Greater York area amounts to about eight percent of all journeys made, now I think if we were to follow Mr Curtis's view through and put all development on the periphery of York, if we put two hundred to the North, two hundred to the East, two hundred to the South and so on and so forth, the contribution that those, that new housing can make to improving the public transport system, will be very small, if you concentrate your developments in a new settlement, or or maybe two new settlements which is another point, erm you have a better opportunity to provide a public transport system which would not only serve that new village, but also settlements in the surroundings, and I think you will find that the percentage of people in the new village who are reliant on public transport as a means of getting to work is greater that what you find in the Greater York area at the present time. Aha. Any other comment? The only other comment I had in terms of the scale of settlement, which I think is just touching upon the next point, is that, I mean depending on the conclusions you reach as to the the amount of housing to be provided for in a new settlement, I take the point that Mr Brighton made that you've got to have a longer term perspective I think that he f that in the ten year period ninety six to two thousand and six that the new settlements to be brought forward during, erm I think it's really unrealistic to achieve more than twelve fifty, fourteen hundred houses in that period, if you say reach a conclusion there should be two thousand houses in that period in a new settlement, there might be some benefit in having two settlements, each of a capacity of say twelve fifty,f for erm twelve fifty to fifteen hundred that can have capacity for the next plan period, and in other words to assist in meeting the constraints that exist on York that are likely to exist into the future. Mhm. Thank you. Mr Brook, and then Mr Sexton. Thank you sir. Clive Brook, Clive Brook associates. I think it would be appropriate to very briefly sir preface erm not by name obviously, who I represent, the interests I represent, because otherwise my comments may be misconstrued erm by certain parties who know me well, I represent certain peripheral land owner and developer interests around York, I also represent a developer who is proposing a n new village circa fifteen hundred dwellings in the Leeds metropolitan district er to the East of Wetherby, that is relevant when I come to the location and a migration aspects, er I would preface the rest of my comments by saying I consider it is vitally important, sir, that this enquiry takes a sub-regional view, this is why my colleague from Leeds City Council I'm sure's been invited, it's why the Department of the Environment Regional Office are here, very important indeed. In terms of Greater York and its th the York greenbelt I think it's true to say that er some time ago when David Kaiserman of Manchester did research on greenbelts he came to the view, or he came up with the conclusions from his questionnaires that he sent round, and that study was done, must be ten, fifteen years ago or more, that greenbelts should endure unchanged for at least twenty years, and probably in excess of thirty, and those were the responses of county planning and other major planning authorities at that time, that view if anything has hardened, the public view would be way beyond thirty years. For a city the nature of York it is vital, in my view, that public confidence in the greenbelt it's got to endure for beyond thirty years, that is the case I would share the views to some extent of the York City in that, and which I I certainly read into ma'am, your, two of your questions, what happens beyond two thousand and six? The responses I heard to that question were most unsatisfactory, the County Council's response was, ah, well we'll have to get together again with the group of authorities, now if you look back over how long it has taken to produce this particular strategy that's exceedingly worrying, that means they'll have to get together again, even if it takes half the time or a third of the time, they'll have to get together again towards nineteen ninety seven ninety eight to be considering the strategy post two thousand and six. I put it to you that this proposal has to be considered, any new settlement proposal has to be considered within the light of a post two thousand and six strategy, in that light this new settlement proposal will not, at around fourteen hundred, satisfy the situation. If you then say, ah well it might expand to double that number or to five thousand, as was postulated, that then begs an even larger question, because in my submission you would then go back and revisit the alternatives of, for example, should you expand Tadcaster, which has not the best facilities in its town centre, er to quote but one example of er viability and sustainability of towns. You would look at Tadcaster versus a settlement of four five thousand in the Greater York area. It is a so it's a complex set of interrelationships we're looking at er on a sub-regional basis, I do believe that there is capacity, some capacity around the inner area of York, and to what extent the greenbelt enquiry er inspector will retain what I and others and certainly York City Council would believe is sufficient capacity remains to be seen, and though similar pleas were made at that enquiry I think they have to be restated here. So my answer to the question A is, I am not against a new settlement, of the right scale in the right location, but it is not a panacea, it is not an answer to all the questions, now it's being offered in terms of a balanced strategy, I say that balanced strategy as put forward does not work, certainly beyond two thousand and six, and may grind to a halt well before two thousand and six if rates of development proceed er as they have done in certain years in the past, so it's very important to look at that, can we just revisit the public acceptance of the new settlement, of course the public have accepted it and welcomed it, it has certain attractions, I support those attractions, however it's easy for the public to accept that when measured against certain sites specific proposals that were put to them when they did not know where the new settlement would be, and still do not know, when new settlement locations are put forward it will be quite a different scenario. The question of er P P G thirteen and transportation I think is vitally important, York will come into the position that Chester er where I was just at a transportation enquiry recently, it's a very similar sort of city, it's not quite the same as Cambridge, where Cambridge is leaping ahead on quite, some would say draconian transportation measures, York in the forceable future will have to look at specialist transportation measures, that's important in terms of the planning policy guidance that is out, it's also in the white paper, it may be in draft P P G thirteen, it's also in I think it's P P G twenty two, renewable energy, that we should now be looking at developments which is closer to work, that links then to the question of sustainability and viability of a new settlement, I am not aware, and and I put it guardedly in those terms, of any significant employment existing or proposed in any of the new settlement proposals. I believe it is very important to judge a new settlement in terms of viability and sustainability on the availability of some significant element of jobs, of course it will never be self contained, erm but that is a very important factor, I don't see that in the list of criteria. So I'm not opposed to a new settlement, but let's have a very sensible approach to the question of sustainability and viability, journeys to work, er okay six to ten miles is not too much, but we can do better than that. I think I'll reserve my other comments, sir, when we get on to some of the later points. Thank you very much. Mr Sexton. Tony Sexton, Connell. Er my start point is P P G twelve, which in er paragraph six point four sets out the reconciliation of the er development, er economic, social, and environmental er priorities in preceding two strategies for a structure plan. These development strategies should seek to preserve an acceptable balance of the various priorities, now in my position statement I set out the role and general advantages of new settlements as part of a development strategy in satisfying housing and employment needs of an area. In particular I think that the new settlement strategy proposed in the structure plan is of particular relevance er to the needs of Greater York, focused as it is on the historic city. Given the lack of a capacity within the city and in the settlements surrounding to absorb significant elements of major development it seems to me that it is inevitable that green fields er will have to be taken to satisfy the future development needs. The choice therefore arises between peripheral development of the urban area and the villages surrounding or alternatively the new settlement itself, the effect of peripheral development on the city has already been discussed, and I support those who consider that it would be harmful to the character and indeed to the setting of York. Equally to, I consider that significant peripheral development of the villages would be harmful to their character as well. It therefore follows that in my view, that it is consonant with the requirements of P P G three, particularly paragraph thirty three, that a new settlement should be part of the housing and employment strategy of the Greater York area, that it does not conflict, in my view, with the consultation draft of P P G thirteen which really embodies much of what has already been said in P P G three and twelve with regard to travel issues. Dealing with one or two specific points that have been raised, particularly with regard to size, in my view the balanced community which can be envisaged within a new settlement will provide for housing, employment, community services, and recreational opportunities, it will not simply be a peripheral housing estate transferred to the open countryside, in my submission I have already stated that I do believe a new settlement of up to fourteen hundred dwellings should indeed be viable, and commercially attractive to the development industry. I think a settlement of this size would be compatible with the general pattern of village development that exists in the York area, if a new settlement were significantly larger than this pattern I think there would be a high degree of risk of coalescence with the existing er communities, and would certainly threaten their identity. The other point I would make is the further that the new settlement is from York itself, then the greater would be the dependency upon the motor car, this has been born out by the paper that has been submitted by York City Council in table one where one can see that within the urban area within the O R R the travel to work by car is forty six point four percent, travel to work in the Greater York area at the moment is sixty seven point five percent, further than that I do believe it would be even greater. As there is indeed a need to reduce car dependency it therefore follows that the nearer to York that the new settlement is then the greater the benefits could result, equally to, the further that the new settlement is from York then I think the less it will have an effect in reducing the pressures for development upon York. I think those pressures will still be there and that another solution will have to be found, albeit in the middle term to reduce the further demands, continuing demands for peripheral expansion of the city. Thank you, Sir. Thank you. Mr Jewitt. Sorry. Sorry. Sorry. A couple of questions if I may please Mr Sexton. First of all you started off with a reference to P P G twelve, and I fear my pen wasn't fast enough to note down the paragraph number, perhaps you could remind me? Er, certainly, Senior Inspector, erm paragraphs six point four, and continuing into six point five. Thank you. Second point, erm, you argue that a settlement of more than, say, fifteen hundred dwellings would increase the risk of coalescence with existing settlements, but surely that depends on where it is, doesn't it? Yes, I readily accept that, er my general proposition is in er connection with the settlement pattern of York, and it is necessary clearly to have er careful regard to that existing settlement pattern, erm if I may refer to the helpful plan that has in fact been produced, I believe by the County Council, it is in fact an appendix to B two zero zero four, er this plan does actually indicate the general extent of the settlements outside the outer ring road of York. Clearly the settlement pattern at the moment does vary, many of the settlements are linear in form, many others are nucleate. But they are fairly thickly spread, fairly closely to each other, it is my view that, quite frankly, the existing settlements should be protected to the extent of no new settlement being within w one mile of the vi existing village centre. If one took that as a parameter, and applied that to the existing settlement pattern, there is indeed a high degree of risk of coalescence if in fact a new settlement were of a significant significantly larger than fourteen hundred dwellings. I understand, thank you. Michael Jewitt. Michael Jewitt, Hambledon District Council. I think at the outset I need to erm clarify Hambledon's position, erm Hambledon's position is that it objects erm to the new settlement on the basis that it's not needed and cannot be justified, and I wouldn't wish erm for the er Council's position to be interpreted as anything less than that. Turning to erm the reasons erm for the Council's erm objection with particular reference to er paragraph erm thirty three of P P G three, erm I think it's first of all, and it should be abundantly obvious to all present now that since the County Council emba and the Greater York authorities, embarked upon this strategy government guidance has changed, we believe erm government guidance now casts serious doubts erm on the erm new settlement strategy for Greater York. It's certainly true that government guidance is far more guarded erm in its support for new settlements erm the guidance has has of course been touched on but I would adem emphasize the dates of this guidance, er P P G three, housing, March nineteen ninety two, P P G twelve, development plans and regional planning guidance, February nineteen ninety two, and draft P P G thirteen, May nineteen ninety three, just looking briefly at P P G three, erm P P G, and I think it's fair to say that P P G three takes up far less welcoming stance than did the previous erm P P G erm it recognizes that new settlements are controversial, and that the scope is likely to be limited. Hambledon District Council believes that insufficient regard has been payed erm to to these issues erm in the structure plan alteration, in paragraph thirty three the P P G sets down a list of criteria erm to which local authorities er should refer erm, I'll erm refer specifically to er to three of them and I and and comeback to them as I go through erm erm what I want to say, erm the first one I draw that I would draw the panel's attention to is erm that the alternative of the expansion of existing towns or villages should represent a less satisfactory method at providing the land for housing that is needed, and it's a rhetorical question really here, erm and w we would ask that erm if there hasn't been a comparative appraisal erm of the two options, and how could there be, there's no erm district or areas been identified, how can we be certain that one option is better than another under the terms of that er criterion, erm the oth second point we would draw the panel's attention is that the proposal is a clear expression of local preference supported by the local planning authorities, and again I would emphasize there that Hambledon District Council objects, and the third one is the option of a new settlement in preference to the alternative would result in positive environmental improvements, and I'll return to that erm briefly in relation to er to Hambledon, P P G twelve erm paragraph six one four that's been referred to it, includes a check list of issues against which areas in for new development in general er need to be er considered, with particular reference for reducing the need for travel, erm amongst these issues that the P P G asked the Councils to take into account erm are that development should make full and effective use of land within existing urban areas, that developments er should consider development patterns that are closely related to public transport net networks, and in relation to housing, and that housing is located in such a way as to minimize car use for journeys to work, school, and other local facilities, P P G thirteen, and I would expect erm I would agree with what Mr Donson has said here, is that it it's draft and obviously one has to put the appropriate weight on it, but erm this reinforces and expands upon erm established government policy, reducing the need for travel, erm I don't think it's necessary for me to go into er the quotes in detail, I think that those have been er been touched on, erm, however, I would say erm that Hambledon District Council believes that the advice in draft P P G thirteen is much less supportive of new settlements, it suggests that greater weight must be given to the environmental implications of the additional traffic generated by new settlements erm this is, erm we believe, particularly important in view of the fact that a new settlement for York is unlikely to be self contained, and by its nature many of the residents will still look to York for essential services, social links, and employment, turning to the residual requirement, erm we have a concern over this, erm clearly a new settlement is intended to mop up any residual requirement which the er policy sets at fourteen hundred dwellings, we've heard evidence from York today that er the city can accommodate erm more erm houses than was originally envisaged, which brings the residual requirement to erm about the minimum size specified by the County Council as being erm about the right level erm to make a s a new settlement self supporting, however, we would point out that there is still the possibility of erm further peripheral development around York, the greenbelt local plan and Southern Ryedale local plan er have not yet been statutory adopted, the inspector hasn't reported on those, we don't know what he's going to say about sites er which were at issue, or on the need for flexibility between the inner erm boundary of the greenbelt and the city, irrespective of course of what the inspector says, erm being not yet statutory adopted the County and Ryedale will still have the opportunity to consider, reconsider there policies there, but putting that aside for the present, erm even if it is established that er the requirement for nine thousand seven hundred houses erm can't a occupied by er can be accommodated by er peripheral development, erm this doesn't it doesn't necessarily follow that the answer has to be a new settlement, we heard yesterday in erm great detail that erm environmental considerations have justified a reduction in the rate of development in other districts, erm in the county, I would point out that a relatively modest reduction erm in the inward migration to Ryedale, Selby, and York, could mop up the residual requirement, if one looks at erm the reasons for the greenbelt it is perhaps surprising that given the importance attached to maintaining its historic form and character that this is not an issue erm that's been considered. Looking specifically at our concerns with regard to erm Hambledon, erm in Hambledon the area search would erm extend to about eighty two kilometres, that's square kilometres, erm and contain six, this contains six villages, er with populations ranging from a hundred and fourteen to nine hundred and seventy one, erm proposed new settlement of fourteen hundred hou erm dwellings, er would be four times erm greater than the largest settlement in this area, Easingwold is the nearest small town, that's about the equivalent erm equivalent size in terms of number of dwellings, erm we believe that it would er dominate the existing settlement pattern in the area, and would introduce erm a dislocation erm into er a settlement pattern. And we think that it would be an excessive size er for that particular locality, and it wouldn't really fit in erm with er the path of the settlement pattern. We also have concerns about how it could erm fit in to er the countryside erm of the area er with particular reference to erm paragraph thirty three of P P G three which states that erm the net effect of any new settlement will be to enhance the environmental cause only modest environmental impact, the area in Hambledon, as Mr Wincup outlined yesterday erm is occupied essentially by the vale of York, it's an essentially flat and rolling landscape, er the intensification of agriculture's produced a very open landscape erm in that area erm there are few erm landscape elements to reduce into visibility, erm there are no significant areas of derelict land which could be, which would be reclaimed or enhanced erm by a new settlement, erm and the Council believes that it would be very difficult to assimilate a new settlement into this landscape, and it would be er visible over extensive areas, to touch on erm the point raised by erm the panel about self sufficiency and self containment erm I think it's recognized in the explanatory memorandum, erm to policy H two that a new settlement will need to maintain social and economic links with a city, erm perhaps from some, this statement is explicit that erm York will continue to exert considerable influence in terms of employment, social, and community links, erm and it's unlikely that facilities which have provided a new settlement will divert much, if an , if er any, erm of this er demand for travel. We think that the er residents of a new settlement will still look to York as the natural centre for employment, for er provision of most employment, retailing and entertainment, and if you compare it with something like er Easingwold, erm which is of a similar size, erm this has achieved a degree a degree of self containment and balance, but this has occurred through erm a long period of development and a gradual growth of erm social linkages and economic linkages, however, even with such erm a gradual growth erm it's not got a high degree of self containment, erm recent developments in er transport and changes in lifestyle have reduced this even further, and it's difficult to believe that er a proposal, such as a new settlement er which is explicitly intended to cater for the development needs of York, located only ten miles from York can achieve the same level of self containment. That's all I have to say. Thank you. Er y your use of the phrase self containment leads me to ask the question, which is that, well in my book it doesn't necessarily mean the same thing as an integrated and balanced community, but I'll put Mr Davis on notice to define what is meant by those adjectives. Er, Mr Girt, can we have erm a Leeds view? Yes, I'd like to come back er to Mr Brighton on the question of regeneration in West Yorkshire, and er settlement South West of York, some people here today would not have heard the views of Leeds and Bradford on the H one discussions yet, about er why we are objecting to the restraints in three North Yorkshire districts, Harrogate, Craven, and er to less extent perhaps, Hambledon, on migration levels, erm we we argued there Sorry. we argued there that erm scale of migration was not necessary to to be contained within Leeds and Bradford, to promote regeneration because we're s we're now, we have now exhausted all our brown field sites to the extent that we've had to take land out of our greenbelt, but there we were looking at something in the order of four thousand dwellings in three dris districts, spread over fifteen years, and we might reasonably assume that they'd come forward in a dispersed manner on a site by site basis er and be relatively small scale, certainly we would be looking at the local plans which flow from this alteration to make sure that will be the case, now a new settlement's a completely different animal, you would have to come forward quickly otherwise it would not be regarded as a success, it would it would need wide publicity, perhaps across the whole region, maybe even beyond, it would be a a major attraction to anybody thinking of moving house er from Leeds to a a location which would be accessible to them to retain their employment in Leeds, so I think we were talking about two different things entirely, more than that Mr Brighton's su suggested that fifteen hundred would not be an adequate scale, it would have to be, I think two thousand five hundred was his figure, er Mr Timothy's suggested th the same sort of thinking, and Mr Brook to, that the the settlement would have to get bigger, erm which only compounds our problem, any any settlement which grew larger and larger and inevitably would contain more employment as well as housing would become more of a threat to the regeneration of Leeds and, perhaps to a lesser extent Bradford, and it's on Thank you. I'm conscious of the time, and we may like to have a break for tea, but there are also three people who wish to contribute to the discussion. Would you like to have a break for tea now? I mean, I I ask that in the the sense that ha are your contributions going to fairly lengthy? And mine. Right, can we take Mr Cunnane and then Mr Thomas, and we'll do you after tea. Joe Cunnane, er there are five points which I want to make. First one, er relates to the point made by the Barton Willmore representative, that no account has been taken of additional land that would be needed er for the settlement, for shops, er community facilities, and other infrastructure, er and of course that land is not available, well in fact the opposite is the case if the new settlement is not provided, because the infrastructure is available within York city, and the York city document er A eight double O nine, paragraph six, makes it very clear that the city is capable of accommodating the needs within its city boundaries where that fr infrastructure is available, er to that extent there is a further argument against the settlement, and that is that the settlement would be duplicating the provision of resources outside of the city, where those resources can actually accommodate it within the city. Second point is that Barton Willmore say again a settlement of two and a half thousand is needed in order to be viable, well a settlement of two and a half thousand cannot possibly be justified under the statistics that we have heard to date, and it is ni it is noteworthy that Barton Willmore representative did not actually promote a need argument, therefore the settlement at two and a half thousand is n well the settlement at two and a half thousand is not necessary, and anything less than that is unsustainable, so therefore in my in my view that is a a further reason why it should not be contemplated as a solution. My third point is coming back to Chairman your point about the paragraph, the criterion paragraph of thirty three of P P G three, and the settlement in my view fails the first the first test, since the very city which it is supposed to relieve says that the need can be met, and I quote, within and on the edge of the urban area and villages. My fourth point is that again dealing with paragraph thirty three, it fails the second test where it should be a clear, and I would like to underline clear, expression of local preference supported by the local planning authorities, now Mr Jewitt has already made the point so I'll be very se very brief about this, but I my clients, Simon Smith's brewery in Tadcaster, two off fifty seven Thank you. Mr Thomas. Yes, Richard Thomas, Montague Evans. Er most of my points have actually dried up now, sir, in view of what Mr Cunnane has said, and also Mr Jewitt, erm I do actually, I would try to emphasize a point that the people who are proposing new settlements in this location have judiciously avoided the question of need this afternoon, well I think we we almost came to the point this morning that the shortfall was nine hundred and reducing almost on a month by month basis, er one or two quick points I would like to pick up, er in view of the erm small nature or the shortfall in housing supply that we see over the next fifteen years, I cannot accept that to avoid the new settlement option would be prejudicial to greenbelt objectives, erm the housing land supply allocations are almost there, there are plans to run through which will un almost inevitably allocate additional sites inside the inner edge of the greenbelt boundary and outside the outer edge of the greenbelt boundary, but both within Greater York, which are bound to assist in making up the shortfall of provision, and probably, if I suspect rightly, would actually exceed it, erm erm I agree with Mr Cunnane on the question of the alternative expansion of existing towns or settlements, the same point really, we're almost there anyway, the op that option is already there, it's not that it might be there, it is it is there at the moment, er it's not a clear expression of local preference, and I would also point out the option of the environmental improvements under the P P G criteria you asked us to look at, erm whether it's a thousand houses, two thousand, two and a half thousand, whether it has a bowling alley, or a ten pin bowling alley, and a B and Q, and a, probably a Tesco as well, this form of development will not sit comfortably in open countryside, almost, wherever it's put within the Greater York area, I defy anyone to produce a site where one can satisfactorily put er such a massive form of urban development and suggest it's a positive environmental improvement. Another point which hasn't been taken up, despite us being invited to is why is the Greater York area the size that it is, and this is a point that the Senior Inspector raised, er in other towns and cities, I'm thinking particularly of Exeter for example, the districts have looked at supplying their city based land supply problems on a journey to work area, now that area would be significantly greater than we're looking at here, and it seems to me in this location er where we see a potential abundance of supply beyond the strict confines of the Greater York area is a very apposite question to ask, why is the Greater York area the area that it is? Why are we relying so heavily on this arbitrary boundary? Because the result of what we're trying to achieve, particularly if one goes for the new settle settlement option, is to squeeze, as we said this morning, a gallon into a pint pot, and it it would be interesting to hear from the County why the Greater York boundary is what it is. Thank you. Thank you very much. Well, Mr Davis can mull over that while he's having his cup of tea, and then we'll come straight to Mr Sedgewick and Mr Donson after tea. Can we reconvene at twenty to four, please? Yes, could I erm, I just want to take up some points raised by the panel. Erm, indeed the first one was why should, why should the new settlement be located close to Greater York, I think the main main ans the answer to that is of course that York is the main centre in population, and employment in the county, by far. It's it's also the main area of housing demand, it's also the main area where employers want to locate around around North Yorkshire, and I think most importantly, if its development needs are not met, these can won't be satisfactorily diverted elsewhere, they will continue unresolved which would be continual pressure on the edge of the urban area, and on on the greenbelt, and if that holds the effect would of course be that the tight greenbelt would mean that economic growth in the county would be frustrated, because York is the main centre where employment growth is concentrated, and I would think, I would consider that that solution of a tight greenbelt plus not making sufficient provision for development needs elsewhere in York would be contrary to P P G three paragraph three, which I'm sure you're aware of. Well if I could just read read that, a well planned strategy for hou for land, for hous , sorry a well planned strategy for land for housing which ensures that housing is available in the areas where jobs are being being created can make a valuable contri contribution to national prosperity and economic growth, so I say I don't think we would have that erm valuable contribution if the new settlement were located away from Greater York. Now in terms of the cr the need for development, I'm sure the panel will have read all the evidence which has been put in about the long history of the varying impact studies o on development on around Greater York, and those date back of course to the February eighty nine report which I I think you'll have seen copies of. Now my my conclusion from that, and I think is a conclusion which has been supported by the public on con during the consultation exercise on the Greater York study, was that peripheral development around Greater York would have an undue impact on the historic character of the city, and that of course is the fundamental, the protection of which is of course a fundamental aim of planning around Greater York. And I think that the alternative of the new settlement is by far the best solution, provided it is mixed with some peripheral development, one can't go into a position where there is all peripheral development or all new settlement, it has to be in perfect balance, because some needs cannot of course be met by the new settlement. In terms of closeness to York, I take the general review view and I support the County Council that it is generally better if the new settlement is located closer, close to York, because that under proviso that it is well located for public and private transport. If further away the new settlement would be from York, the less likely it would be to meet the needs of Greater York, more likely to meet the needs of other areas, such as Leeds. I think the worst of all locations would be a, would be one where the new settlement would be catering for the needs of Leeds, if it were were located along the A sixty four corridor, South South South of York. In terms of sustainability, we we have done underdone undertaken the same exercise which Barton Willmore have done, and looked at all the various sources, I mean from there you should be including those published by the rural development corporation, commission I should say. We come to the different conclusion, and we we think that a settlement between, from those sources, that a new settlement between fifteen hundred to two thousand could support a reasonable range of services, and we when we look at Barton Willmore's evidence we don't see the support for their conclusion, if one reads each individual service, one fi comes to the view that a new settlement between fifteen hundred two thousand would support a reasonable range of services. Now in terms of whether it should be five thousand plus, that of course is a matter of whether there is demand, now my my conclusion, from my fairly extensive knowledge of Greater York, is that you just could not fit a new settlement that size satisfactorily into the settlement and landscape pattern of Greater York, or its immediate surrounds, I just cannot identify a location where that could be where where the roads, the public transport, the landscape, or indeed the agricultural land quality, from now onto five an area, suitably large for that type of what would be a a new town. And could I just say that I think that the issue of sustainability does also touch upon the need for the new settlement to be be located on a public transport corridor, preferably an existing public transport corridor, and I think again that argument for for s for somewhere where a rail link, preferably, could be provided, and that of course would tend to support all those factors tend to support a location on the Northern side of York rather than the Southern side of York. That's it. Can I pursue one point you've made, Mr Courcier, you say there is nowhere in the York area where a settlement of say, five thousand Five thousand dwellings. dwellings could be accommodated, given that the world is not going to stop in two thousand and six. And an assumption, and it is only an assumption at this stage, that York has a tight greenbelt, by that time statutory. Isn't it a bit short sighted to th to plan to come up against what if you're right would be a brick wall. It won't be us at the next E I P, but aren't you inventing the same problem Well I for the next panel? I think there are two points there, firstly I think that the York greenbelt should not be drawn overly tightly, it should allow for some provision for peripheral post two thousand and six, because there will be inevitably demands arising in that period, which cannot be met in the new settlement, and I disagree with the County Council on their approach on that matter. would would also be wise for any new settlement which you chief specify, that any new settlement you may recommend should also include some provision for expansion land, and my point I think is that you could not divide a settlement as big as five thousand, I think it would be reasonable to say a new settlement make with a an eventual capacity of say three and a half thousand, that might be appropriate around Greater York. You couldn't find that could you? I think one could find something of that order. I think five thousand is just too large and if if there were a need post two thousand and six for a larger, for a for further development, and Tadcaster, two of the 7 So are you saying then effectively that looking towards the post two thousand and six scenario, and bearing in mind that that review will not be let, will, is likely to take place at the most within the next five years? Yes. Erm, then it may well be for the benefit of Greater York that you might be looking at more than one settlement? Well certainly I don't think at this point there is a need for more than one settlement. No. Mm, there may be a need post two thousand and six for a further settlement, we won't know until we see, we don't know the strategic policy context in which that decision will be taken, nor nor of course exactly what sort of demographic requirements may be arising in that period. Mhm. Most certainly at this point I don't see any need for a second new settlement. No. Thank you. Mr Brighton. I just wanted er, Paul Brighton, Barton Willmore Planning Partnership. I just wanted to erm pick up on a couple of points that er people have made in the course of a and responses I think to my er opening statement. I'm sorry, people can't hear you at the back. I'm sorry, I just wanted to make a couple of points in response to erm things that people have said in relation to my opening statement, erm Mr Brook er mentioned the fact that er none of the employe none of the new settlement proposals of which he was aware, erm included an employment element, erm I just wanted to to place on record the fact that our suggested reworking of policy H two does provide for an explicit land er amount of land for employment purposes, erm as part of the new settlement location, I wanted to say that because I, I'm not invited to appear on your employment day, and I do feel that this is an important component of the the H two strategy, and clearly that employment component will be drawn from the Greater York allocation, the second point, Mr Sexton erm I believe said that in his view you could not find a site for a larger new settlement er within the or outside the Greater York er greenbelt, erm which would not result in physical coalescence with the existing villages in the area, now I'm not sure whether he was referring to any particular size of larger new settlement, but I invite you to look at the er land range at one to fifty thousand er map of the area, and you will see that the area outside the greenbelt is characterized by erm a very rural area with sporadic villages, and my believe is that there are erm sites available within that area which could accommodate a larger new settlement, the planning point is of course the larger the new settlement becomes, I think the less that that the reduced number of sites you will have available to accommodate erm that proposal, because of its scale, and the third aspect I want to comment on Mr Cunnane and Mr Thomas erm said that Barton Willmore had not made a need argument for the new settlement, well if I'm not mistaken that's what we spent most of this morning discussing under policy H one, and I don't erm I don't wish, and I don't suppose that I'd be invited to repeat the comments made by Mr Grigson this morning, I don't think there's any need for that, but that establishes in our mind very clearly there is a need for a new settlement in the range of two thousand to two thousand five hundred dwellings, erm in the period up to two thousand and six, and I won't say anything more on that. Thank you. Yes, I mean I I took your need figure to be on the basis of the suggested figure of twelve thousand seven hundred for the Greater York area. Thank you, correct. Mr Whip. I'm not, I don't think you're a resident of one of these sporadic villages, but can we have, Flexton is it? Flaxton. No, Flaxton Parish Council, George Whip. The views of Flaxton Parish Council are supported by Flaxton Village Trust. Most of my comment will be related to the methodology of selection of the site of any new settlement, and not to the question of need which we're now addressing ourselves to. But I don't think reference has been made to a document that is referred to in P P G one, namely the doc the white paper, This Common Inheritance, er D O E document, and in that there's a clear indication that this question of a new settlement erm should be considered, paragraph six point four eight reads, however well urban land is used, there will continue to be a need for building on greenfield sites, it is important that new housing on such sites is carefully placed to preserve the open countryside, and respects the quality of the landscape. Here again there are local choices to be made, one option is the creation of new villages or larger settlements which could offer opportunities for high quality design, and also relieve pressures on existing towns and villages. The government believes that this is an option which should be considered by planning authorities and local communities in the preparation of their plans. In my opinion that supports the line taken in the revised version of P P G three which I don't think dims the enthusiasm of central government for a new settlement consideration as compared with its predecessor, P P G three. The view of Flaxton is that the greenbelt should be kept tight round the urban area of York city, and it is because of that view that we think whether there is a need for a new settlement depends basically on the numbers game into which we cannot go. Mhm. Could we have a copy of that er quote from Common Inheritance? If you'd arrange with the er erm secretary later. Thank you. Er, Mr Wincup. Ken Wincup, D O E. I'm sure sir you're you're not expecting me to make a a major contribution to this particular debate, but I felt that your the, various comments have been made around the table which would make it exactly clear where the Department stands on this issue. As we say in our our paper, we use the phrase wildly supportive of the concept. those words were carefully chosen as as I'm sure sure you'd expect them to be. Our involvements st with this project started way back in nineteen eighty nine, went into a series of meetings which most recent I attended at the Greater York authorities, we learnt the full scale and extent of the housing land problems in the Greater York area, we of course have no part in the decisions which have been made by the Greater York authorities, nor in the plans they subsequently made for the York greenbelt, but clearly we remain closely interested in the outcome. We heard what Mr er Davis had to say this morning, and at at one point was very very important, we are expecting to be in possession of reports on the greenbelt local enquiry and your report er round about the same time, and indeed since they they are in control of proceedings thereafter they are in a position to make sure that they don't have to reach decisions on one until they are in possession of the other. In relation to the concept of a new settlement the Department very firmly has an open mind at a time, we've heard many statements drawing on the various P P G s, and from some of them you might have been excused for thinking that the Department had indeed turned it turned its back on the idea of a n new settlements, knowing that sort of situation we felt it appropriate before the start of this examination to sound out the residents of two Marscham Street which we did, and I'm pleased to say that they endorsed that that general position, in other words their not going to come to a conclusion whether or not they should take any part in the proceedings, whether they should intervene or seek to stop the project until much later in the day. We see we see this forum as very much the right sort of forum for either making or breaking the case for a new settlement, the one thing I do have to say, however, is that the Department wants to see this particular issue settled in the context of the alteration, and full significance of that isn't immediately apparent, it, what we don't want to see is what was envisaged in the H B F statement, where they thought that we might end up with a decision to have a new settlement in principle and then leave it open to the local plans, all four of them around the city, to then explore the possible alternative locations. That's not how we see it, sir, we see the the issue of the location of the new settlement as very much a strategic issue which should be settled in the structure plan context, and not left to local plans to decide. The words are there in in the bi in the relevant P P G but I'm sure you're you're familiar with them, er this is very much an issue which falls to be decided at the strategic level. That does of course pose one or two problems, as far as the locational aspects of the new settlement are concerned, as I understand it neither the County Council nor the relevant District Councils have mandated on the question of location, they've not yet embarked on the detailed exercise which will be necessary to identify a preferred location. But in our eyes that exercise needs to be conducted before the plan reaches its final approval. Just how that's going to be accomplished we don't know, we're not party to the discussions, we understand that the Greater York authorities do plan to meet shortly after the end of this examination, but just what further work is necessary before they then get onto the location aspects we don't know about that, all I would say is that we would expect final plan to have the general location of a new settlement embodied in in that plan before it is approved. It's obviously too early for me to judge whether in the absence of such a definition the Department seek to intervene, but in the word, in the light of what is said in the current P P G I think that must be a possibility, but for the moment, sir, we have very much have an open mind, and we obviously, like everyone else, are looking forward to your conclusions on this issue. Thank you. Thank you for putting the ball in my court. You'd better take it back again. I'm not sure whether to bat it back to you, but no I won't . Mr Grantham. Er John Grantham, C P R E, erm just coming back to the to the general questions you you asked earlier about about erm consistency with guidance and and P P G three in particular, erm in in the written evidence we we've addressed that, and I don't wish to go over that ground short of saying that that I feel the contribution from er Mr Jewitt, which was Hambledon's particularly helpful in that regard in in I think explaining erm how government guidance is different now to when to to to how it was er at the earlier deliberations of the Greater York authorities, and I feel that that's very important consideration erm, I'd I'd like to restrict my my comments just to two points, and they they both really refer to to things that were introduced by the representative from from Barton Willmore. Erm, Mr Brighton was was critical of the County Council in just using the residual method to determine the size of the new settlement, er and then in in backing up that justification erm referred to to work that is included in in Barton Willmore's proof, I've I have read this survey work quite carefully, and my understanding of it is is that erm by un undertaking a survey of settlements in the county, they have established, albeit f f f for information purposes only, a population threshold for a particular type of service, erm, in in the North Yorkshire context, erm the implication I I understand from that is is that that is being used to justify a fourteen hundred figure or or whatever it is to to achieve the level of services that would would be required for a a balanced integrated community to to use the words for the guidance. I think the the the B W the Barton Willmore analysis appears to overlook the fact, and again Mr Jewitt referred to this when he referred to Easingwold, that settlement evolves over time, and and nobody seems to be addressing the point that that fourteen hundred, fifteen hundred, two thousand houses, however many it is, won't appear over night, erm er th it would take some time for that to be to be realized erm and as part of that there's no clear view as to when the services will come along that are that are necessary to give that community the balance it it said it requires, erm, Mr Timothy from Wood Fram Frampton referred I think to a figure of twelve fifty dwellings for a viable new settlement, and there were plenty ex of of examples, quote, erm that one could look at to to see that was the case, erm I I'd be interested to know where those examples are an and what there make up erm is. Just as an aside,thi this is an issue that's currently being grappled with by Litchfield City Council, where the circumstances are erm albeit on a slightly smaller scale similar with with the historic city, and they are commissioning research on this very subject of of service pro provision in in new settlements. My second point, and it refers to again er something that Barton Willmore referred to and that's the question er an engine of growth, and it seems to to me that that that such a settlement would become an en engine of growth in in the countryside, not least because of of the it would become self fulfilling, er and it would be the obvious sort of sink hole, as Mr Thomas said, for for subsequent land allocations, I think, erm this this point has been touched upon by both the representatives from Leeds City Councils and from Cleveland, Leeds City Council appear not to want it in the Leeds York corridor for just that reason, the representative from Cleveland, who unfortunately isn't here today erm doesn't want it in the North of the county for for what I understand to be to be that same reason, erm and the Inspector at the Stone Basset erm enquiry in Oxfordshire, and I I do refer th to this in my evidence, he he drew a very similar conclusion about this when he said, and I quote, once destep once established the new town would generate a momentum of growth that would be difficult to contain, such growth, if allowed, could further harm the rural character of the countryside and the villages in this part of Oxfordshire, I think that conclusion can be applied to North Yorkshire, and I certainly haven't heard anything that would convince me that that such growth once it started could could be controlled, and indeed the the record of controlling growth against erm projected requirements in the structure plan to date has has not been good, witness earlier comments on the structure plan overshoot. I think just to conclude the the engine of growth argument, erm, has obviously been raised in relation to other new settlements, notably Cambridge and and this has been referred to already, erm the situation in Cambridge is different to York in in that the level of growth that's that's anticipated for that city is is is significantly higher, and the new settlement erm proposals there have been considered in in that regard and and just for the record C P R E have supported the the new settlement in that particular location, but it does seem to me that the returning to your basic point, that that erm if one applies those circumstances in Nor North Yorkshire it does fly in the face of of established policy in the structure plan, and the overriding er policy is is one of restraint in what is is considered to be one of the country's most sensitive environmental areas, thank you. Thank you. Er Mr Brook, and then Mr Curtis. Clive Brook, Clive Brook Associates. Er I'd just like to come back on three fairly brief points that er one of which was mentioned by Michael Courcier, two of which er relate to that, and were helpfully stimulated in discussion during the tea break, erm Michael Courcier, I think if I got him right, said, he did say we can't produce demographic forecasts for post two thousand and six but I think he was fairly guarded in saying it it wouldn't be wise or or whatever, erm I would suggest in this context, and in the context of, and I use the word emerging and I look for advice as to when emerging regional planning guidance, and when will be the end date of that regional planning guidance, I say we should be looking beyond two thousand and six, I say we can look beyond two thousand and six, and I would suggest we do it in the way of arrange, which would be highly appropriate way of doing it, not too dissimilar to road traffic forecasts, low medium and high growth, and if, to put the point simplistically, if we have arrived at a requirement figure of nine seven for Greater York for a specific period, if we were to either project that forward by five or ten years, obviously we couldn't just simply go rata, but if you took a low figure and you halved it on the basis of the make up, the demographic make up, of how the nine seven had been arrived at it would be possible to produce a range, that then relates to the question of a new settlement, and the alternatives during the period to two thousand and six, and beyond, of that new settlement, and I go back again to the greenbelt, it is vitally important to do that in the terms of a long term defined greenbelt, therefore again in that context, I would say it is highly desirable, if not necessary, to revisit the periphery of York, it has not been examined in a local plan, it has not been examined in terms of environmental impact, with all due respect to the Greater York working party their, the level of analysis of those peripheral blocks of land was fairly cursory, on a limited number of planning criteria, if a new settlement is to be assessed alongside expansion of Greater York we have to revisit it in much much greater detail. The final point is in terms of deliverability, when could any new settlement actually produce housing? A number of criteria would relate to that and we we simply, it isn't appropriate I know, sir, to go into the detail of that, but I I postulate briefly certain questions. Assuming a fair wind on major infrastructure, access, and drainage, it is unlikely that a new settlement would be producing a significant group of housings until somewhere around, at the very best, end ninety six into the of ninety seven period, in that context, what is happening in that short intervening period, assuming certain planning guidance comes forward to help that intervening period, and will that new settlement actually be built out prior to two prior to two thousand and six, will the fourteen hundred dwellings be built in that period, question mark, probably not, it will lap over, therefore in that context of a gap at the beginning, and a potential overlap at the end, it is very important again to revisit the peripheral land issue. I'll point those latter questions in the direction of Mr Davis to pick up in his concluding remarks on this discussion. As to R P G er and its birth, mid December Mr Wincup? Wincup, D O E. Perhaps. And the end date is two thousand and six, as I remember it? That's the idea, sir. Yes, thank you. There's two points in answer for you Mr Brook. Er, Mr Timothy, and then Mr Brighton. There's Mr Curtis . Sorry, sorry Mr Curtis, I'll forget. Thank you, Chair. David Curtis, York City Council. Erm, two er three points would I like, erm, picking up a couple of comments earlier, and coming back to a, I think if we use a cricketing analogy, a long hop I'd like to bowl at you Chair, and you may hit it in Mr Wincup's direction. Comment was made this morning, er earlier on by Mr Timothy about the fact that the new settlement would be likely to generate a higher usage of transport than is the norm for Greater York, if I understood him correctly, erm, knowing the public transport system in Greater York, erm, I fail to see how he could possibly come to that conclusion, because bus services in the rural part of Greater York are very poor, clearly that's partly because of the distribution of the rural population, and I fail to see that a settlement of the size being suggested would actually generate a level of usage of public transport any higher than that which ex already exists in the York in flat, and certainly no higher than exists within the exis existing urban area. The second point i is this issue about self containment, er Mr Davis accused me this morning of using some somewhat outlandish words, I think, erm, I did obviously refer to the er my vision of what a new settlement of this size proposed would be, and I I didn't in that mean to imply that I didn't in that mean to imply that I didn't expect that with the right planning that it couldn't have clearly local facilities, local school, library, etcetera, but it seemed to me quite clear that the scale proposed it would not have the higher order functions which as we've heard earlier, Greater York has been defined based on York's planning assumptions, clearly the major shopping, educational, and social facilities will continue to be provided in the city, and it will produce what is in effect dormitory settlement. The point made by Mr Bishop about employment, shopping and other land I also wish to respond to, I think one of the other participants did mention the issue of existing provision, it's been quite clear from the work of the Greater York authorities that certainly shopping terms there is an oversupply of shopping companies in and around the edge of the urban area at the present time, we have a number of major outstanding consents which have not yet been taken up. There is actually more than enough land already available to within the main urban area to provide the types of facilities that Mr Bishop was saying were not currently available. And the long hop as it were, sir, it maybe er not an appropriate time to ask about, but I think it's important to understand, certainly I would like to understand, that if this panel, this enquiry doesn't establish the location for the new settlement, Mr Wincup is implying that that should be agreed before the plan is adopted by the County Council. At what point after this panel finishes sitting then will the issue be discussed in a public forum of this type, or is Mr Wincup saying the County Council can of itself determine that issue without further public examination. Thank you. That's not a long hop, that's a googly. I think what what Mr Wincup was saying at the end of the day, is that the Inspector's report and the conclusions on the greenbelt local plan will go back to the parent authority, the originating authority, which is North Yorkshire, equally my rec report, out recommendations on this alteration go back to North Yorkshire, they have to take regard to whatever we recommend, ultimately they will take a decision on that, erm depending on the decision other things may flow from it, and I can't really speculate on what those are at the moment, but effectively the final decision as to what they accept or reject will rest with North Yorkshire. Can I suggest though that there is, using the cricket metaphor again, a long stop role fielded by the secretary of state. Alright? Mr Timothy. Jus just three brief points. Firstly responding to Mr Grantham and his reference to Litchfield, a city where I work and live, erm the situa , perhaps it's worth outlining how Litchfield came to look at the new settlement option, because it has some relevance to to York C can I just stop you there and say is it relevant? It's absolutely relevant . To, to anything we're going to consider about a new settlement around York ? Absolutely because in York, in sorry, in Litchfield you have a confirmed greenbelt right up to the boundary, they were pursuing a local plan for the Li the city of Litchfield in isolation from the rest of the district, and there they were promoting seven hundred and fifty houses to be taken out of the greenbelt. The Inspector who reported on that Litchfield city local plan said, go away, leave your Litchfield city plan and look at the options beyond the greenbelt, including erm the possibility of a new village, and I think that's that's the point here, instead of rolling back the greenbelt you should be looking beyond, you know, what is the general extent of the greenbelt to see what options are available, just coming on then to the size point, again that Mr Grantham raised, I have through erm experience both in the Cambridge situation which I referred to extensively erm in my statement, and in East Staffordshire where we are promoting a plan, er a site for a new village which is included in the deposited plan, we've looked in both the Cambridge and the er East Staffordshire situation,bo at service provision, both from speaking to the providers of those services and whether or not they need a specific facility in the settlement, and from the developers point of view, that if you've got a pot of money what can you afford to erm provide within a settlement of that size, and the conclusions we are rai er sort of reaching are a du a settlement of the order of twelve fifty dwellings can support your primary school, community centre, erm a range of shops, and so on and so forth, so what I'm saying in my submission that the an appropriate size is in the thousand fifteen hundred mark, is that were you can get a reasonable co balance of community facilities and provide the relevant infrastructure in terms of services. And it's going back to the point that Mr Curtis I think misunderstood me, that's basically that if you concentrate new growth in one location you have the ability to plan to serve that development by public transport, whereas if you spread it out to all the points of the compass, you know, two hundred houses in one direction of York, two hundred in the opposite direction would become very mor more difficult to serve than would a concentrated er chunk of development, and that's as simple as that. Not so simple, but never mind. Yes. Mr Brighton. Paul Brighton, Barton Willmore, Paul Brighton, Barton Willmore Planning Partnership. You asked, sir, a little earlier for a definition of integrated and balanced community, and erm I'm disappointed that er you didn't recall my paragraph three fifteen of my submission to you were I set out erm I thought erm My senses are dimming, having read all this material. erm, where I set out my interpretation of what that means, and I don't think it's very helpful to read that out to you, but I think you will find that it's er erm a very broad er description of what the new settlement should be seeking to achieve, now Mr erm I think has misunderstood our position on this question of erm the appropriate size for the new settlement, and I think if I'm correct he suggested that we were promoting a a size of fourteen hundred, the point I think I would make is that the larger the new settlement erm the greater the range and the quality of services and facilities that can be provided, and I think you have to distinguish between what developers say they are prepared to provide, on the one hand in a new settlement, whatever the size, the quality of the retail or recreational social facility that occupies that physical provision, and also its long term viability, and I would suggest that a larger new settlement of the size that we are suggesting, is much more likely to er attract a range of quality providers of services and facilities than a smaller new settlement, and also Mr Grantham er raised the issue of the question of the development program, and what might be expected in terms of services and erm during the development program, and of course I think that would be a matter for any specific proposal, or a ma a matter of discussion between the local planning authority concerned and the developer, and I would expect it to be something erm that was included within a section one O six agreement. Finally, erm various terms have been erm thrown around about new settlements being an engine of growth and a sinkhole for future growth, erm the only point I want to make there is that any future growth beyond the present structure plan period of two thousand and six would of course be subject to the planning system, there is no automatic erm growth erm of any new settlement that is proposed or may be proposed beyond two thousand and six, and Mr Davis has indicated that at that time a new study will be carried out on the relative merits of the alternative options that were seen at that time. Thank you. Thank you. It's alright, thank you. Er yes, Chairman, thank you. Terry Heselton, Selby District. Erm won't take up much time Chairman, because I think most of the points I want to cover have already been covered by previous speakers. Erm simply to remind you of the position of of Selby District in in that our interest in a new settlement emerged out of concern for the quality of life in existing villages in in Selby district, and concerns for the impact of future peripheral development in those villages, and not just peripheral development on the edge of York, although of course we acknowledge that as an important consideration and it is for that reason that we fully supported the County Council's proposals in relation to greenbelt, erm you asked the question earlier in relation to the P P G advice and and the six criteria, erm in fact I've already rehearsed that argument in my submission so I won't repeat it now, erm the fact that you chose to phrase the question that way I'll take as a good omen as to the way I presented my submission, but it it it's there for you to read again, the the the main point that I want to address is something that was raised by Mr Wincup yesterday, and that was the difference or not as between Selby district and Hambledon district, er M Mr Jewitt's made reference earlier to his opposition to the new settlement, and in doing so he he he mentioned the settlement pattern in Hambledon district, he'll correct me if I'm wrong, but one of small dispersed villages, well in Selby district we do have villages of that nature, but the Northern part of of Selby district is significantly deferent to Hambledon, it's characterized by much larger villages, and in fact the establishment of a new settlement wouldn't conflict with with the settlement pattern at all. I can well understand M M Mr Jewitt's concerns, erm I think the simple fact of the matter is that not a great deal of Greater York new housing demand is likely to be generated in Hambledon district, whereas in Selby district a significant amount of er demand is likely to be generated, so really by way of conclusion I I would like through you to ask Mr Mr Jewitt if his opposition to the new settlement is as a matter of principle, or whether he's really stating the case for Hambledon district, in other words, would he object to a new settlement in Selby district? I leave Mr Jewitt to answer that question. Mr Jewitt. Michael Jewitt, Hambledon District Council. Erm, I think I answered this question this morning in response to erm Miss Whitaker's erm er question to me, erm Hambledon's objection to the principle of a new settlement is based upon, erm, our interpretation of P P G three, we feel that, as I said, it would be disingenuous of us to support the principle at this stage knowing that we were unwilling to accept a new settlement in Hambledon. Erm, we wouldn't want the policy to progress so far erm as to get to the stage of looking for a specific site and for us to pull the rug underneath the County, and for other authorities to pull the rug from underneath the County at that stage, erm to answer to Mr Heselton's specific question, of course we wouldn't object to a new settlement er in Selby, but erm it doesn't erm it doesn't detract from our objection to erm the principle of the policy, the way the policy's expressed. So, putting it another way, you don't agree with the principle of a new settlement, but if it happened to be found elsewhere, other than Hambledon, you'd let it ride? That's correct, Chairman. Thank you. Satisfied, Mr Heselton? Erm, to a degree. That's the most you can hope for. Thank you very much. Erm, pursuing now, I'm going to ask whether there are any more comments on this particular part of this issue? Because I would like to move on, but I have got, I have got some outstanding questions to ask, er mainly directed at the Districts, and the County, of course. But does anyone else want to make a contribution? Or do you think we've covered enough ground? Can I, can I then come back to P P G three? There. Which one? Here. Yes, it's alright. expansion of existing towns and Why not? Well that's in the Yes. for the County. relevant to everybody else Aha. it's not specifically for the County. Mhm. We come back to in fact it's the first par , again it's the first part of thirty three, that you have looked at the question, or the possibility of expanding existing towns and villages, and as I read it, you have rejected that, er and therefore you see the only satisfactory method of providing land to meet the figures for the Greater York would be by a new settlement, this is the outstanding balance. Why? Why have you done that? Are you satisfied that you've done enough examination of your existing towns and villages to come to that conclusion? Mr Jewitt? Erm, thank you Chairman. Er Michael Jewitt, Hambledon District. Erm I cannot speak for other districts, and they are a far No, I only want you to speak for yourself. Yes. Okay. And they have a far greater proportion of the Greater York area than we do, erm as I outlined we just have three relatively modest villages, erm our, we do have a concern erm, on this, in that we don't ac , given there's a a district and an area have not be identified, we don't feel that there has been a comparative assessment of the two options, we don't dispute that they may well be harm er from peripheral development around other distric , around settlements in other districts, we acknowledged other other District Council's concerns, and indeed, these are arguments we have used ourselves on the scale of development in Hambledon, er but we don't feel that there has been a properly balanced assessment of the two options. It occurs to me, for example, that given that all we've heard this afternoon about the fact that a new settlement and again I'm playing devil's advocate, that if it were possible to build onto an existing settlement the quality of life of those who lived in the new settlement might in fact be better than if they were, to put it crudely, finding themselves in the middle of a field. What I'm really searching for is a bit more evidence from the C , all participants as to why the principle of expanding an exis existing settlement has been rejected, I well appreciate that those who lived in the settlement that was chosen would not like it, but that's not the point I'm getting at, is there nothing in this principle of building on what's there? Mr Courcier. Mr Courcier. Michael Courcier. I think that's a very good question, I think though that that has been looked at very very thoroughly by the County Council, and certainly there are only a very limited number of options available around York which would actually meet the needs of York. And one looks at the two most likely existing settlements on which you could do that to are, of course, Easingwold, to the Nor to the Northwest, and Tadcaster to the South. In terms of Easingwold, I have a client who owns about forty acres who would be delighted with that solution but erm, I don't think that Easingwold could support that level of development, if we're talking a around about two thousand dwellings, without very very substantial harm to its character and setting. This is a historic town, I I disagree with Mr Jewitt upon the emphasis he gives to that, but I do agree with him that a limit the type, the scale of growth which that solution would imply would be hurtful, would be very, extremely harmful to the town. It also must be remembered er that the transport links to Easingwold would not be good enough to support that level of development, it does not have a rail station and it does it, and the A nineteen is only a single carriageway road, and would need ld need isagree with Mr Jewitt upon re 1 Now, wouldn't necessarily suggesting that the existing settlement would have to sustain all of the addition given only what it's got at the moment. I'm sorry It could have it could have some more shopping, it could have another primary school, it could have a rail link, or some other public transport link. Michael Courcier. I fully I fully accept that, er you would obviously build in the facilities which are necessary, but the most of the settlements are limited by existing physical and other constraints, and those cannot be overcome, you cannot duel the A nineteen as far as Easingwold without very substantial harm, for example to the open countryside, even if it were physically possible and economically possible, to expand Easingwold, sorry, to expand Tadcaster to the required size, we'd need to roll back greenbelt boundaries, again contrary to P P G two. It er it, we, certainly the expansion of Tadcaster has been looked at quite thoroughly, though not only by the local authorities, but by the private sector, and the, and I think the the agreement has been that it it is not possible at the scale which is required to meet the needs of Greater York. Thank you. Would Mr Cunnane, and the District Planning Officer for the Tadcaster area, that's Selby, concur with the views expressed by Mr Courcier? Do you want to add anything to it, Mr Cunnane? I do wish to add one point. Yes. Er, Joe Cunnane, er, actually, sorry, two points, erm I represent, ha, that's not I hope that's cheating. I represent erm the the er the brewery which is located in Tadcaster, and erm I can I can er say without hesitation to this panel that erm the brewery object most strongly, or would object most strongly, to any suggestion that a level of population growth suggested woul should be accommodated. Tadcaster is a populat has a population of around six thousand at the moment, and if the s the level of increase that is proposed were su were imposed upon Tadcaster you would be talking about a fifty percent increase in the size of the town. That would be impossible to accommodate without major adverse effect up what is a historic town, almost entirely er located within a conservation area, and as Mr Curtis said, erm constrained by the greenbelt, the final point is er it is located within the A sixty four corridor and it is inevitable that it would serve the needs of Leeds rather than the needs of York if it were expanded in that way. Okay. Terry Heselton, Selby District. This is perhaps one of those rare occasions where I almost agree with Mr Cunnane. Perhaps not quite to the level of the the development that may be appropriate, but but yes, of of the three market towns in in Selby district it's acknowledged that Tadcaster would have a a less significant role than the other two market towns, if I can put it that way, and yes, there are a number of constraints in Tadcaster, not not the least of which i is an ownership constraint. Thank you. Mr Jewitt, while we pose the question about Easingwold. Michael Jewitt, Hambledon District Council. Erm, I find myself agreeing with what Mr Courcier said, er, about Hambledon, I don't think it realistic to expect existing settleme , villages within the area of search to form a nucleus for a new settlement, they're simply too small and would be swamped by any development, and also the er I stand by the statements made yesterday about the environmental quality of the settlements, about there form, settings, and characters, and I really don't think that they could form the nucleus of a new settlement. With regard to Easingwold, well of course Easingwold is at present outside the area of search, erm but again I do agree with what Mr Courcier has said, it would be a doubling the size of Easingwold, Easingwold is a small market town of high environmental quality, the existing form and pattern of development within Easingwold, erm exercise constraints over the scale of future development, the central area is of a certain size, of a certain quality, it's got a certain amount of capacity to accept further development, and I don't believe that a a erm grafting a fur further fourteen hundred houses could be fitted in to that existing infrastructure without serious harm . Thank you, very much, yes, thank you. Mr Curtis. David Curtis, York City Council. I thank you Chair, I mean, clearly I have to ask for a little bit of license on this one, in that I have to comment on things outside of my own district, erm but you will not be surprised to hear, given my evidence earlier that the City Council's view is quite clearly that there is sufficient land with, on the edge of York, the main urban area, which could accommodate this type of level of development and obviate the need for a new settlement in the structure plan period, I accept, however, of course that that is dependant upon the definition of the inner boundary of the greenbelt, if the City Council's view on that is er acceptable then Inspector, I believe there will be sufficient sites to obviate the the need for a new settlement, clearly if the Inspector takes a tighter view on the greenbelt, then there will be little land opportunity within the main urban area for this. Well I, I mean, you know, just forget your admin boundary at the moment, I mean would you concur with the views expressed about Tadcaster and Easingwold? I Just as a planner, never mind where you're working. I I would be surprised if either of those settlements could accommodate the level of development being suggested in a satisfactory way. Thank you very much. Now, Mr Smith, Ryedale. Ian Smith, Ryedale. Erm on the question of whether or not we're satisfied that we've done enough examination to reach our conclusion, we've examined our greenbelt boundaries on two occasions, firstly as part of the Greater York study, and secondly as part of the work on the Southern Ryedale local plan. The District Council has accommodated the highest proportion of Greater York growth of all the districts surrounding York over the last ten years, and therefore I think it likely that it would expected to accommodate the largest proportion of the fourteen hundred dwellings that would be accommodated in the new settlement, erm I do not think that any of the settlements or that there is sufficient land within the Southern Ryedale area to accommodate that level of development without adversely affecting character of the settlements, or compromising greenbelt objectives, as I mentioned this morning, and also I question whether or not erm whether th most of the settlements in the Southern Ryedale area have only a minimal s minimal service base anyway on which to tack any large housing growths, and I don't necessarily foresee any subsequent rise in the service base of those settlements as a result of the housing being added on to them. And thinking about your district, I mean places like Pickering and Malton are too far away to be satisfactorily considered, are they? Ian Smith, Ryedale District. Yes they're erm I mean there erm Malton's what thirty minutes drive from York, Pickering's probably forty five, up to an hour. Yes, yes. Thank you. Yes. But he hasn't said whether he accepts the settlement. He doesn't. Alright, okay. Come back to that one. Okay. Mr Frost. Lindsay Frost, er Harrogate Borough Council. Just to complete the picture on the districts around York, erm and in answer to the issue raised by er Miss Whitaker, I think the villages in erm the Harrogate sector of Greater York are all far too small to erm act as a nucleus for the size of development we're talking about here, er the largest of them, Upper Poppleton, probably has about seven hundred to eight hundred houses, and that I think would be swamped and lose its character and also possibly suffer from coalescence with the nearby York urban area, if er large amounts of additional development were tacked onto it. Er I'm also concerned that the services in er even a village that size would be erm overwhelmed by the demands of erm large scale development, but that's the largest, there are a range of other settlements which are mostly much smaller and even much less able to accommodate, or act as a nucleus for large scale development. I would like to emphasize that erm the Greater York authorities haven't lightly arrived at erm the strategy for a new settlement, er we have been driven to it by a very careful examination of the development possibilities, firstly around the edge of York, and secondly around the various villages, we know these areas erm intimately from our day to day planning work, and on two occasions, once in connection with the Greater York study, and secondly in connection with drawing detailed greenbelt boundaries we have tramped around the edges of all these settlements and looked very carefully at the possibilities for development, erm the possibilities have been taken up in the development equation, which the County Council has put in front of you, which does still include er some development around villages and around the edge of the city without harming greenbelt, but we don't really think we can go much further, and that's what has driven us to the conclusion that er a new settlement must play a part in the longer term development equation for Greater York. Thank you. Thank you. Mr Cunnane. Joe Cunnane, I'm sorry, but er Chairman, but I did actually miss probably the most important point I should have made about Tadcaster and that is that it is It's never too late. never, no, and that is that it is constrained by a very tight village envelope which has actually just been defined and statutorily approved as an alteration to the rural areas local plan erm, and th the effect of that village envelope is to limit the possible amount of development to I would say no more than three or four hundred house. Thank you. Chairman. Er Terry Heselton,Sel Selby District. Just er for clarification that that is indeed the case as Mr Cunnane says, but the erm the village envelopes were brought forward by way of an alteration to the adopted rural areas local plan which will take us up to nineteen ninety six, erm we will possibly have to look and review some of those envelopes in connection with the emerging local plan. Thank you very much. Sorry to sound a little perverse on that issue, but I, we really wanted to have a clear indication of what you felt as District Planning Officers, er an and indeed we'll hear what the County feel and in fact have pursued through this alteration, but can I again, just for clarification, and in fact it's a sort of final head count, er and again I raise this in the context of P P G three paragraph thirty three, and that is the degree of acceptability, or otherwise, by the local planning authorities, erm and I only need a nod from you, or otherwise, for the record. York, I take it, are not in favour of a new settlement? You don't have to go over the arguments, I've heard that. Ha Selby are in favour. Correct. Ryedale are in favour, in principle. Hambledon, not in favour. Either in principle, or in detailed allocation, but wouldn't object if it went somewhere else. I'm not not being rude. And Harrogate in favour. Thank you. Mr Cunnane is that up for some reason, that flag of yours? No. Now unle now unless there are any participants that want, really burning to make a comment, er I feel that we have settled, well we've had enough discussion on little A, I've got enough, well I've got enough from you in terms of your views about size of settlement, and Mr Brighton has pointed me again in the direction of his submission about er the definition of an integrated and balanced community, I would like to know, er from Mr Davis whether he concurs with that sort of interpretation, and I have a feeling that we have also had an expression, generally, that at the moment one settlement is probably appropriate, if you have to have a new settlement. Fair? Is that a fair conclusion? I did add that rider, just. Mr Davis, can you, would you like to sum up, and pick up these points, and before, I'm going to bowl you a googly here, erm you have talked about fourteen hundred, as the size for the new settlement, erm, is that the top figure, or is that a figure to which you might aim by the year two thousand and six, but may have potential for growth beyond it. Can I add that to my list? Er Peter Yes. Davis, er North Yorkshire. I want at the end erm, Chairman to give you my views of what is meant by er, an integrated and balanced community because I think that's that's quite important, but before I do that, I'd like to mop up one or two er points right at the end in response to some of the contributions that have been made, and I'll deal with them, Wincup, Curtis, Brook, er and Thomas, if that's acceptable er to you, and really as far as Mr Wincup is concerned, he's quite properly raised the issue of procedural issues about how the Greater York authorities is going to address moving towards er an agreed location, and quite clearly I've got to reaffirm again that the County Council will want to look at both the greenbelt local plan report and your panel report before er it moves erm er forward or looks at any conclusions it may be moving to in the light of those er in the light of those reports, and quite clearly, as we all know, there are a number of options. Er and I, as Mr Curtis has suggested, if Mr Shepherd who conducted the greenbelt local plan enquiry decided on massive relaxation or substantial relaxation on the inner boundary, er of the greenbelt, er and the implication being that er some of that land could be made available for housing, then yes, as a matter of principal that would cast doubt on the new settlement er strategy in terms of the in terms of the numbers, conversely, if you look at another option, if you, for example, confirmed the new settlement strategy but thought that the development requirement for Greater York really was er needed to be larger than nine thousand seven hundred dwellings, twelve thousand, thirteen thousand, and I hope not, then the County Council would need to have a look at the issue of one as opposed to two new settlements, and again we will do that, and we will not take any decisions on the basis of having one report, er but not another, and I hope er that that is helpful, I can confirm that er at the end of this month the Greater York authorities will be meeting, erm and er they will be urgently looking towards erm progress erm on this issue. So that's really a a very important underlining of what I said earlier. Moving on to to Mr Curtis, I don't want to dwell and re re er restate the the difference I had with Mr Curtis this morning, but again he did start a little bit of a red herring running by talking about the major commitment for retailing facilities, er there is a major commitment for retailing facilities in Greater York, er a degree of all provision. But the level of all provision of course is in terms of comparison goods, and in terms of large shopping malls. Erm now I I don't think anybody's suggesting that in er the Greater York new settlement we would be likely to achieve a large shopping mall anchored at both ends, one by Marks and Spencers er and the other by Fenwicks, or or or any o or bins or any other department store, so he must really understand the process and really what we talking about er er in North Yorkshire. Moving onto er to Mr Brook, erm and really this leads into Mr Thomas, Mr Brook er erm er advised us, advised you that there was a very cursory look at er er at sites during this five year exercise. Well I can tell you, sir, that is incorrect, there has not been a cursory look at sites as Mr Frost has already underlined. Er, the forty, fifty sites in and around the urban area, and in villages were looked at in detail, as Mr Frost said, by tramping around in terms of of of I think er twelve criterium, although the part of er York City Council's erm er evidence. As for long term projections er er another issue raised by erm er Mr Brook, er I think if we were to go beyond two thousand and six the debate we've had erm yesterday, er what day is Thursday, er Tuesday and Wednesday, erm and to small degree today would pale into insignificance and really er er it might boggling to to think about it, to try and erm er to draw some sense out of er demographic data for the post two thousand and six er er scenario, the uncertainty would be so great that erm that er we certainly wouldn't er er advice it. Er and then finally on Mr Thomas, er Mr Thomas erm, a number of occasions has er has referred to these sites in and around the er er urban area, if Mr Thomas would like us to show us a list of those sites, er we will look at them, we've been through it on a number of occasions, square inch almost by square inch, but I'd be very interested for Mr Thomas's list of sites in and around the urban area. Now that does bring me on to another important issue, and this is the definition of integrated er and balanced community. What does the County Council mean by an integrated er and balanced community? I wouldn't define integrated and balanced individually, I'd link them together, because to me they appear to be er a concept, that you move towards, and the concept to me is shall we say to provide a balanced population structure, which isn't biased to any one sector shall we say, it's not an elderly, it's not a retirement village there like perhaps you have in er certain parts of er er North America, and the second element of the concept is that it should provide a range of services compatible with its size, but I qualify that by saying, but not all the services that the people in that settlement require, and this brings me back to my discussion, debate with Mr Curtis. If the issue today in some people's eyes is the need for this community in Greater York to be one hundred percent self sufficient then perhaps we really ought to go pack up and er go home, er because there's no way that er a settlement that one could envisage in Greater York or perhaps anywhere else can be a hundred percent self sufficiency, self sufficient, you're not going to get a shopping mall, you'd be unlikely to get a a major touring theatre, so you cannot aim for a hundred percent self sufficiency, you aim for what is appropriate for the size of the community and particularly its relationship to existing settlements er in the general area. You aim for a reasonable provision of jobs, bearing in mind the job requirement, er within that settlement, and you aim for an appropriate range of social, recreation, and education uses, erm er within the village, so that on the basis of our proposal, as we say in N Y five, you will expect to have a primary school. Now I cannot say whether you will have a secondary school, and the reason I cannot say that er is because the education authority will, quite properly, and quite reasonably, look at the existing pattern of secondary education er in the area, and will bear in mind that secondary school children, not unreasonably, as they do now, can be expected, erm to travel, er some distance, er to a school facility, that is the real world, you cannot expect a local education authority to spend vast amounts of money erm on er a high range of facilities, which are not justified by the size, er, of the community, and all these social, recreation, er an an and education facilities appropriate to the size erm of the community, need to be expressed in a pattern of land use which is well integrated, and well designed, in other words, it's a good design concept er, and how do you do that? Well we think you do it through negotiation with developers on an agreed location, and you do it through a brief. Now that is the accepted way of doing it, and I cannot see any reason why that cannot be done, erm in Greater York, once the location for the new settlement is erm er is identified, erm so that's my definition of erm integrated and balanced community, it's a concept, you can't define, I don't think, integrated and balanced separately, you need to bind them together er into into some erm er or all er erm concept, erm now the erm the question you did pose me, sir, which er I did take a note of, but I wonder if you'd be kind enough to repeat it so I've I've a I've a got it quite clear before I respond. Well it the question was, do you see the fourteen hundred dwellings for the new settlement as being the maximum size, maximum desirable size, or do you see that being possibly continued beyond two thousand and six? I don't have any view erm er on that, if I understand your question, because I think it realistic to assume that post two thousand and six one of the options that we could be reasonably expected to consider, together with the District Council, is the possibility of a further, shall we say, how addition to, a a further phase er onto the new settlement, erm so that the new settlement erm would evolve, if that was the chosen option, and as it evolved it may well be that more of Mr David Curtis's higher level facilities er would be added. But it is an option that I certainly wouldn't want to discount at this particular er stage erm because it depends on so many er factors, it depends for example whether er the site that er has been identified for up to two thousand and six, and which is developed up to two thousand and six, has the physical capacity to expand beyond two thousand and six, and I think that that ought to be one of the considerations perhaps that we ought to look at as we move towards the identification erm er of the new settlement, conversely, it could well be that ought to be looking at a second new settlement in a different location, erm I can't give an answer, a definitive answer, what I can say is, coming back again er to Mr Brook, this sort of issue er will not be picked up in nineteen eighty eight or nineteen eighty nine, er if we are all alive and kicking in North Yorkshire and the District Councils we will be looking at it regularly, we'll be looking at it in two years time, one years time, erm erm that's the way we work in Greater York, and it's basically worked very successfully. Thank you, Chairman. There was the outstanding question about the Greater York area. Yes. Do you want to pick that one up now? Yes indeed, that Good. I think was er er erm Mr Thomas, and I think perhaps hinted on by the Senior Inspector as well, er what is, what is Greater York?to do with Sylvia, erm Indeed. erm I I think if you look back, and again we could put a another paper in on this, N Y one, which was erm sort of a background to the history of planning in Greater York, which er er we we did, which I think Malcolm Spittle wrote for the for the greenbelt, enquiry, erm and that showed that in the, well before nineteen seventy four of course, there there were four authorities involved in Greater York. They were the North Riding Authority, er the East Riding Authority, the West Riding Authority, all of which converged on the on the city of York, and as you read through the files, er you will see that even then the D O E were trying to get erm those er those predecessor authorities in the late fifties, early sixties er to come to some view about what ought to be better for Greater York, so for many years the idea of Greater York ha has been current er in one guise or another. What I see as being Greater York is an area outside the city, it's the city and an area outside the city, which is socially and economically linked erm with the main urban area, which is primarily, in terms of employment er and other services, the city, now as Mr Thomas quite reasonably suggested erm things change. We defined the Greater York area erm erm initially in the in the late seventies, erm when we first ran a Greater York exercise, we redefined the area marginally in the middle, late eighties, erm erm and the definition that we have used for the Greater York study since then er is the one that we are talking about now. Now, could argue that Greater York could be bigger or smaller, the local government commission, erm er there report is a very interesting read, I mean a number of the options that they've looked at would be a gra er a city of York going out to the ring road, erm that might be one option, there's a there there idea of of Greater York, they did harden, they did see some merit in in a Greater York unitary authority based on the Greater York planning study I think, erm whether that is going to come to pass only Mr Gummer presumably er knows, so my idea of Greater York is that it's an area which is tied socially and economically to the city, you could argue as mobility increases, as the A ni nineteen is improved up through the County that really Northallerton now is perhaps more within the sphere of influence of York than it was ten years ago, erm e it was probably to a degree influenced by York even twenty years ago, erm I don't think er there is much to be gained by debating where Greater York ought to be, the Secretary of State previously hasn't been bothered about er amending it er it seems to us to be the reasonable area, and it's a combination of five districts, erm erm erm who who who hopefully should be working together towards sorting out the er other problems of Greater York. I understood its historical evolution, what I was looking for I think, and not an answer tonight, tomorrow may be a better day, was how does the area which you have defined, for example, now relate to journey to work patterns. Hmm. Erm, what other rational is there behind this definition, the reason this matters is th you will remember the Chairman's opening remarks when we started on matter two, that it seemed from the debate we had yesterday there was room within the county for the County Council's proposed level of housing provision Mm. and therefore the question of the new settlement is inextricably bound up with where that provision is in relation to you br definition of Greater York. Mm. Erm I I don't want to press for an answer tonight yes. that may be something you want to think about, can I also remind, particularly the District Councils, those who request this morning for a different version of the H B F commitments statement. I think we'll get together, Peter Davis, with with the Districts on that particular point, as far as the previous point erm madam, erm then you can rest assured that er the County Surveyor will be rousted out of his dinner tonight er erm when I get back, with a view to er providing the information that you require. Not necessary, Tuesday will do if it's that serious. Yes, don't spoil the County Surveyors dinner, please, he might stop gritting. Thank you Mr Davis. Mr Brighton. Paul Brighton, Barton Willmore. Erm Mr Davis referred to N Y one erm in his er statement there, in the interests of saving paper I just wanted to er to state that it is included as appendix one Yes. this morning in our statement. I read that as well. Well unless there are any other issues that people want to rai any other items people want to raise on this issue, I propose we close now, resume at ten o'clock in the morning, and we will go straight into matters, well matter two C, to look at the di criteria. Thank you. Can I remind you we will not be sitting after lunch tomorrow, but what I would hope is we could probably deal with C and E in the morning,b by one o'clock. We have got a flexibility factor on Tuesday morning, but if I can avoid that I would like to do it, and I'm sure some some others would as well. See you tomorrow. to to do To build up a dictionary to see how words are used. Because you see erm say if you look at business letters, erm people say I should be very grateful if. People don't talk like that, they say I'd be grateful. they don't talk so the language changes all the time, and each time they bring out a new d dictionary they try to say erm this is the way people talk , and bring it up to date so that we're not all talking in the past. And new words as they come in and new meanings of words like people might say erm, Oh I'm I'm well pleased. or something or they'll say you know is it any good they'll say, Oh it's really wicked. And you think, Oh what does this mean? and you look it up in a dictionary wicked and you think, Oh Yeah. that doesn't sound too good. But there's a so there's another meaning comes into it and they update the dictionary like this and they they listen to the tapes and find out how people use it, and how language changes. That's all it's about. Now what were we looking at last time? Big nasty Oh that exam that I thought was probably Yeah. erm I done it. a bit difficult. I done it, I'm just trying to find it. And you did very well on the geometry didn't you? Yeah. I I got to that erm question you know you said couldn't do any the geometry do the rest. Yeah. So I got up to that one but You've been doing Venn diagrams as well? Yeah. Is that is that recent or is that the old stuff the Venn diagrams? What do you mean by recent? Have you done it in the last sort of few weeks? Oh yeah it's the last few weeks. Good. No problem with that? No. No? Been learning that in school. We we did one didn't we a lot long time ago did we do one on football? Erm who's supporting Liverpool and Everton . No we didn't never gone over the Venn diagrams . Okay. Well if if you're happy with Venn diagrams fine leave it. Erm I suppose got here a bit later you would have had more time to sort this lot out . . I can't find it anywhere. Okay. I I did do it It's a I mean no it's up to you if you say you've done it that's fine by me. Erm do you think you got it all sorted out, no problem with it? Yeah. Great. Apart from one question I think it was question nine. Right let's But have a look at that I'll try and get the paper. Hang on. Oh that was that was it wasn't it because they had erm the pentagons joined up. Is that your answer to it? No it was different one that's No that one that's a different that's a project is it? No this this is this is just a maths paper. We've got a big erm like cupboard in in the school and they've they've got loads of paper threes paper twos. So I So you helped myself to a load of paper threes and I seem to have done them all. I wiped the school clean of paper threes. That's great. So whatever sort of question comes up you will have seen something like it wouldn't you? Yeah. Well that' really great. Ah is this it ? That's it That's it. and this is your answer. my answers. I think. Ah. Is it? Okay? Hang on. Could be. I I I'll have a look at the question. No that's for that one unfortunately. Ah that be That's one two three. Right okay. Number nine, transformations. Translations and rotations and reflections. Is that the one that you had the problem with? Yeah. Okay. hang on. Hang on. Yeah that one and number ten, these parts here. Okay. Using a graph. Er where should we start? Start with number ten I think. Because graphs particularly distance and time graphs I mean both of these are very likely to come up, you'll get a translation of some sort, and you'll get a distance time graph but the the the graphs or distance against time er are useful in other problems as well. Erm yeah we'll look at that. Okay don't worry about the ones you did, if you're if you're happy with them Yeah. erm it might be an id if you can find them for next time Yeah I will yeah . So I can just have a quick check and make sure they are okay, but I'm pretty sure if you think they're right Yeah. they'll be right. So What did you make of this number ten then? I think first part to it, but then er it seemed to go downhill so to speak. So you had a formula you had a formula for calculating the value. I haven't read the question I saw V equals and I thought it was velocity. It's the value of a car. Number of miles it's travelled. Okay erm can you tell me in words what that formula means really? Erm if the car has done a lot of mileage, will you get a lot of money for it or will you get less money? You get more money. let's say the car's done no mileage at all, how much would you get for it? Nothing. You get that. You'll get nine thousand five hundred okay? If it's done a thousand miles, you'd get nine thousand five hundred and then cos of the mileage they'd take off a thousand divided by ten, so they'd take a hundred pounds off that. You only get nine thousand four hundred. Okay? Are you happy with that? Yeah. Right so I won't draw a graph, but we'll see if we can work out a sketch of a graph, roughly what it's like. Erm what's the value going to be doing? This is this is the mileage going along there, that's the number of miles that the car has done, and that's its value. As the miles get more and more and more is the value going to get bigger or get smaller? Smaller. Right so it's going to be something like I mean this isn't anything like to scale but it's going to be something like this perhaps. Okay. It starts off at some value here and it goes down until eventually when it's done a certain number of miles the car's worth nothing. Yeah? So if we can find out where those these are the important points, where it cuts that axis and where it cuts that one. So this point is where it's done no miles. How much is it worth when it's done no miles, well they give you that one anyway. It'll be nine thousand five hundred, take off N times zero over a hundred. Well don't take anything off. So it's still worth the nine thousand five hundred. got nine thousand five hundred up there. Now complete so what do they want us to do? Complete that table, plot a straight line graph and use your graph to find these values. Okay. We've got V is equal to nine thousand five hundred, that's how much it's worth, and then take away N over ten. Take away a tenth of a pound for every mile. Yeah? So when will it be worth nothing? When will it have gone right down to nothing? In other words when is when is V equal to zero? Oh we've got a an equation for V. So wherever we've got V put zero. Zero equals nine thousand five hundred minus one tenth of N. Are you happy with that? This this expression here V nine thousand five hundred minus a tenth of N that always tells us what V is worth, anywhere along here it'll give us the value of the car. Now what if what happens as N gets bigger and bigger as it's done more and more The value miles. The value goes lower. Right every time N gets bigger it means we're taking more and more of this nine thousand five hundred. So if it's done ten thousand miles, we'd take a tenth of ten thousand, we'd take a thousand pounds off this. If it had done nine thousand five hundred miles, how much would we take off?hey? Ninety five. Nine nine nine fifty yeah Okay nine hundred and fifty divided by ten. Oh that would still leave us with something left over. So the value is getting less and less and less. The value is always equal to, at any point it's always equal to nine thousand five hundred take away a tenth of the number of miles it's done. So when does the value come down to zero, well it comes down to zero when the bit we're taking away is equal to that. Yeah? So we'll just use this equation. Just say V is equal to this but we want to find out when nought is equal to it. Nine five O minus would it help if we used X instead of N? No No? Okay. Minus one tenth of N, so you've got an equation there and we want to find N. But we've got a fraction in it,so what would you what would you do? What would be the first what would be the first thing you'd want to do? Get rid of The fraction. the fraction. How could you do that? You have a go and see what what would you multiply by to get rid of the facti fraction. Or maybe maybe that isn't the first thing you want to do, if you want to do it a different way, do it whichever makes more sense to you. I wouldn't know how to go about starting, you know trying to get rid of this fraction . Okay if we got if let's let's leave the fraction there for a moment then. Just write the equation out again and let's get the we'll write it as N over ten shall we? Let's get the N over ten onto this side. So what would we need to do to make that disappear? Add it to both sides . Add add N over ten to that side and add N over ten to that side, okay if you want to tidy it up and see what it comes to. What's that going to come to? N ten. N over ten on the left yeah. and ninety five. And nine thousand five hundred. Ninety five hundred yeah. Okay. Now how could you get rid of Mm multiply ten by both sides. Exactly multiply both sides by ten. So how do you multiply by ten? The what's the quick trick for multiplying by ten? Add another nought That's it just add another nought on . Ninety five thou So it's ninety five thousand. So when the car's done ninety five thousand it's worth nothing. So we've found the other bit on our graph now. We know that up there it goes to nine thousand five hundred and along here it gets to ninety five thousand. Now where it goes negative a negative value I don't think we'd be interested in that, that means that the car's got to the point where you have to pay someone to take it away. And the more miles it's done, the more you pay them to . So it doesn't make a lot of sense after that point the graph. So now we know what's going on here what the what the graph's going to look like. We've got some others to fill in. It tells us this this isn't doing exactly what it said here right. What it says here is zero N is zero, the value is nine thousand five hundred. When N is two thousand, what's the value? Four thousand, six thousand, eight thousand okay. And you plot the graph. Erm we'll use those points as well. Now this techniques we've been using here is for you can use that for any straight line graph. What happens when the one that's going along there the the X normally in this case the number of miles. What happens when that's zero? Well that's the value. And then the other one is well what value of X would make Y zero? What number of miles would make the value zero? Then we'll get those two points and that'll give us our straight line. And when we calculate these other points they should fit on it as well. Are you happy with that? Erm. Yeah I understand it li like when you're teaching me but I don't think I I I understood you know how you were doing it. Okay. That's that's that problem. Let's do a different one. It's like the graphs you know Right. I'm not too sure on graphs. You know like Okay. This this is when when they stop and the time goes on what's the time between this that they go Right. What's the speed he's travelling at? Yeah this is the This comes in quite a lot. Spee distance time graphs and speed so let's let's have a look at er Do you want to use a different I'll just I'll just sketch them on here then you can when we get one sorted out you can draw one on there. Let's have a look. So here's a graph and we'll say the distance let's see the distance is equal to erm a constant speed let's say he's doing sixty miles an hour. Well we won't write S we'll write distance. The distance he's travelled is equal to sixty miles per hour times the number of hours, he's been travelling for okay? So he's driving along the motorway at steady sixty. Erm how far would he go in one hour? Steady sixty miles S sixty miles. How far would he go in erm half an hour? Thirty miles. And in two hours? A hundred and twenty miles. Okay. So we want to draw a picture, that's all a graph is, a picture so it's eas so we can get a good idea of what's happening and we can also read off at any time. So we'll have up here, how many miles he's going. Erm fancy breaking the speed limit. So shall we change it make it a hundred miles an hour. Okay he's doing a hundred miles an hour. Along along the bottom time if time is one of the things you're working with it just about always goes along the bottom. Yeah. So this is this is the time in hours. Up here is how far he's travelled in hundreds of miles say. One hundred, two hundred okay. And five hundred, six hundred. Now what happens when he's just starting off from home? Well the distance is equal to a hundred miles an hour, times how many hours has been travelling for? None. we've only just started off. So when time is at none, zero, we haven't started yet, how far is he he's zero, he hasn't moved anywhere . Mm. So there's one point. How far has he got after two mile after two hours? Distance equals one hundred times the time. So two two hundred miles . He's gone two hundred. So after two he's gone two hundred. Erm how far's he gone after six hu after six hours? Six hundred miles. Right so after six, three, four, five, six, he's gone six hundred. Okay now if we join those up,I've got one here it's okay. If we join, we've got three points now once we know it's a straight line, three points is enough. Two is enough really but just to be on the safe side use three and if they don't all lie in the same straight line then one of them's wrong. You don't know which one you'd have to check all of them again. So we've drawn the graph and now we don't have to keep calcul I mean this is easy it' probably easier to work it out in your head then to especially with these figures. But say the figure had been erm fo he's travelling at forty eight point three miles an hour, and you want to know how far he's gone after twenty seven minutes or something, it's a bit more awkward then so it'd be easier to look it up on a graph. Once we drew this picture. Up there is how far away from home he is in miles along there is the time he's been travelling for. that's travelling time. So without working it out, but using the graph now, how far would he be after three and a half hours? Three and a half is about there. Look up there, what do we get? Actually it comes out to four hundred cos I haven't drawn these properly come up come out to three fifty. Let's draw those in properly. One two and so on like that. Erm that was an easy one that was a nice simple one. Well now I'd like you to do one. Er. Do the hard I do the easy one you do the hard one. This time it's the distance he's travelled is given by erm What speed shall we let him go at? Twenty five miles an hour say. Twenty let's make it twenty miles an hour. This time he's a cyclist he's a racing cyclist and he's keeping up a steady twenty. So it's twenty miles an hour times the number of So the distance which is in miles is equal to twenty miles an hour times hours. Okay could you draw a graph of that? And use you're you're not going it's not going to be negative is it? No. So use all your all your paper go down quite a bit. Just leave yourself a little bit to write underneath it. You're going to need some sort of scale well. Miles per hour. So how many squares have we got up here? Roughly. twenty or so. Mm thirty. About thirty okay. Let's say let's make it erm one square going up there is ten miles. Okay so you could mark that off in ten in ten mile steps. And we want to know let's say we're interested in a a time of about ten hours or something. Okay that's fine. So along there if we have two squares is equal to one hour. Now we've got a formula, so we build up a little table. there okay something like this. A good one to start with is so if we put time along the top here. Yeah? Erm T and underneath we'll have distance. A good one to start with is what happens when the time is equal to zero? If he's been travelling for for zero hours, how far has he gone? No miles. No miles okay. Erm if he's another easy one is if he's been travelling for one hour how far has he gone? Twenty miles. Twenty miles okay. And if he's been travelling for ten hours, how far's he gone? Two hundred miles. Right okay. Now we've got three points there it's probably they they give you four here so we'll do another one erm, when he's been travelling for five hours how far's he gone? So it will be for that one it'll be One hundred. That's it yeah. Great so it's twenty miles an hour times five hours equals one hundred miles. So now we've got a table and you've got four values in, which is plenty. So if you'd like to plot those. Okay now check they all lie on a straight line. If they don't then one of them's wrong. They do. Yeah. That's a very good indication that you got everything correct. It might not be cos you might have got the formula wrong and you've got every one of them wrong but it's usually a good sign. So just join those up. And now you can ask I can sort of ask you questions on it like if he's been travelling for let's say If he's if he's covered sixty miles how long has he been riding for? So you think you can use that set square actually which helps. He's he's travelled sixty miles come down that way Three hours. He's been going for three hours. Okay erm If he's done two hundred miles, how long has he been riding for? Ten hours. Okay now looking at it the other way, you see we we had those points but we don't know what happens over here. If he'd been cycling for fourteen hours, let's say fifteen hours. If he'd been cycling for fifteen hours, you you have a look and tell me how far he would have gone. Three hundred miles. Okay now any problems with that? No. I think you understand that Yeah. very well don't you, that's all there is to it. It's use your equation to make a little table. What happens nought is a good one to go for. Now what happens when he hasn't done any time at all and time is just starting off. Where is he? Well usually usually not always but just about always he's at home he hasn't gone anywhere so how far away is he zero as well so you get zero zero goes through the origin. And then you just put the numbers in for different hours into the equation into the formula that tells you how far he's gone, work it out. So let's try another one and I'll give you some of the details and the questions that I'm going to ask on it later. Now with this one the one we've just done you don't really know how far to go I mean I might have been going to ask erm how long has he been travelling if he's been riding for a thousand hours. And you're your graph paper few metres long, or you'd have to cramp this scale up quite a bit bring it closer together. So we'll do something similar if erm the train Shall I make it very awkward? Yes. Yes. The train leaves this is an express it leaves Euston at some time, we don't know when, at some time. Okay and it doesn't stop anywhere it's going all the way up to Scotland before it stops. And it does a steady what shall we have? Sixty miles an hour, eighty. Eighty miles per hour. Right. Hello I'm sorry to mess up your tea and everything. I was explaining I got Oh no it's it's alright. so many changes in lessons and everything today Yeah. had something else that I was just doing and I thought Oh I should be at Ian's for five o'clock. I didn't look at my timetable which I've got with me. Yeah. And I got here early . It's alright he'd practically finished anyway it was alright . Hello hello hello. Oh yes nosey. Come on. late and I was early. You alright. Mm? You're a cute little thing aren't you? Come on Taff. Out you come. Cheerio Taffy. Out. See you later. Out. that way Out. Go on shoo. Thanks for the coffee thanks . Okay. It goes a steady eighty miles an hour right. Now when it's been travelling for three hours it goes through Manchester. Okay and when it's been travelling for five hours it goes through erm what's another station up there? let's say Carlisle something like that. And when it's been travelling for seven hours it gets into Glasgow. Okay. It goes it goes through Manchester and it goes through Carlisle it doesn't stop. Doesn't stop from Euston it doesn't stop till it gets into Glasgow. Now what we want to do is try and draw some sort of picture for that. Any ideas? What's happening there? What we're going to try and find out erm so instead of having these three hours and things we'll say at at three o'clock it goes through Manchester and at five o'clock it goes through Carlisle. At seven o'clock it goes through it gets into Glasgow. Right now we want to find out what time it les it left Euston. And we want to know how far is it between Carlisle and Glasgow, between Manchester and Glasgow and between Euston and Glasgow. Pretty impossible task eh? And we're going to do it with a graph. Any ideas what what could you look at that sort of question and you think this is impossible. Yeah? No chance of working any of this lot out. But they say draw a graph. That's all they's told you. A steady eighty miles an hour and where it was at these times. So We know the graph is going to look something like this. There's time and there's distance. And time seven o'clock okay? Seven o'clock when it gets into Glasgow and five o'clock when it gets into Carlisle and three o'clock when it goes through three o'clock when it goes through Manchester. Mm we don't know what what what could we put in? Could we put part of the graph in do you think? How far apart are Manchester and Carlisle going to be? Hundred and sixty miles. Right it takes two hours it's going at a steady sixty, great, so we know that's a hundred and sixty. And what about the other two Carlisle and Glasgow? A hundred and sixty. That's a hundred and sixty okay. Erm and we need some more information there but let's say we know that Euston to Manchester is a hundred and sixty as well okay? Let's say that's erm Euston to Manchester is a hundred and sixty miles, so where would Euston be on this? It'd be there. Okay so that would be at one o'clock and there's another hundred and sixty. So those mileages go up here. Now if if we start up here somewhere. Let's draw the line in first. can decide what this is. Erm From there to there let's make it er Okay that's a hundred and sixty, that's a hundred and sixty, that's a hundred and sixty That's seven o'clock and that's five o'clock, three o'clock and that's one o'clock. So that's what the graphs going to look like. Now you wouldn't get one as hard as that in an exam. But I think you could do that sort erm provided you didn't sort of panic no chance of doing this okay? What what do you think of it now? That sort of question. You still think it's What I've you know when you're like given a plain axis and I have to decide what to put on the sides I I'm sometimes a bit So is it which one goes top and which goes along? Is that okay,to work that out or not sure about that? I'm not sure Okay. Well there's an easy way to divide that. If they give you an equation like this let's say the weight you're making up a a load for a lorry and you're putting erm crates on with car engines in, and the car engine weighs erm I dunno say it weighs a hundred kilograms. Erm what will the the equation you get will be something like this, the weight is equal to a hundred times N okay where N is the number of engines that you've got on. Okay so you could work that out for well how much would it weigh if we put five engines on? Yeah? Or how much would it weigh if we put ten engines on? Now when you see the equation like that, the one that's on the left hand side. the weight equals, the one on the left hand side that equals something that you have to calculate. The weight is the one that goes up there in the Y direction. And the one that's part of the calculation goes along the X axis okay. So this one you'd mark off one two three and this they would actually use this erm if they were loading lorries they could use this sort of thing. Er so one two three Could you dr could you draw that one then? I'll cover that up again. Just draw a graph of that. Weight is equal to a hundred times the number of engines. The weight in kilograms is a hundred times the number of engines we've got. Erm whatever whatever units will fit the paper. So do do it on your graph paper okay. Turn that over. And let's say the maximum number of engines we can ever have will be up to about twenty five. So use use a bit more. Take you can take it right long to the end. You don't need to go actually to the end with your numbers but you can take your line right along there cos you might find at the last minute there's an extra one you want to put on. So I'll just give you the equation you can write the equation ion the on the graph paper. W equals a hundred times N. Where N is the number of engines and it's the weight in kilograms. Now good that's a really brilliant point on any graph to put the units in because they give marks for that, when they see your graph they want to see you've put the units on. And along there would be number of engines N. Now the maximum number of engines you you're going to have we know is going to be twenty five. So how long have you got along there roughly? Fifty. About fifty. Have you got fifty, cos you had thirty last time didn't you. Yeah that one. Okay and we can get about fifty there can we? Erm Three squares to the centimetre and we've got twenty five yeah so we'll get erm we'll get fifty on fifty squares so twenty five engines to fit along that space of fifty. One every centimetre Mm. One every centimetre okay that'll make it one every three squares. Three squares is a bit awkward to deal with. That's that's good that's the best scale for getting it very accurate, that's great. Erm it might be better to go for two squares is one engine and they'll fit on okay. So if you mark off that every every two squares is probably one engine. So you've put your marks every two squares, but you don't need to write all the numbers in you could just write say erm two, four, six, eight or you could just write five, ten, fifteen, twenty, twenty five. And that would probably be a good enough start just put five, ten. So put those in. Oh hang on hang on hang on. Yeah these are ones okay that's one, two, three, four, five. Oh I see what you mean I thought Okay No sorry I didn't make that clear erm mark every fifth put the number on every fifth one. Five, six, seven, eight, nine okay. to get so you've worked out your scale for this one that goes along the X axis. What's the biggest weight you're going to get if it was twenty five of them what would it come to? Twenty five hundred. Twenty five hundred. And how far how many have you got along there roughly? Okay sixteen times three you've got almost you can almost get fifty up there wouldn't you. If you'd have brought your scale down a bit you would Yeah. have got it on. But okay maybe we won't go to twenty five. So use the same up there. Mark every second square, and each one's a each one is a hundred kilograms. Every second square? Like Yeah. that's a hundred, two hundred Yeah. Okay. And the sec yeah be very careful when you're marking each second one because that one Oh ooh. Right it is very easy to do you just get into a nice little plodding along Yeah. and you're not thinking and the next minute you do that and your graph goes all out then. That's it. So you might think why don't I make it easy and make it one square. Because they're not one of them will be two squares and one of them bill we be one and so you need to get used to working with them like that. Okay now you need to work out a table. Ah you've got W equals a hundred times N. So we do a little thing like this. And we put N on the top right. N and W. So what values are you going to try? I mean they will normally give you them but erm what would be an obvious one to go for? N's nought. Right okay when N is nought when there's no engines what's the weight? Nothing. Right. So there's a there's a good point I mean very often you'll get this point in the origin not always though so you have to watch that. And how about when erm you've got ten engines what would that weigh? One thousand. Okay. And when you've got twenty engines . the squares. Yeah? Yeah. When you've twenty engines what will that be? Two thousand. Okay. If you use a ruler or some sort of straight edge it really does help because it's very Yeah. easy when you go right across from one end of the page to the other to be a square up or a square down. And then you can't work out why your graph seems to have a kink in it. Okay. Are they in a straight line? Mm. No. So something's gone wrong. Okay. One of those points isn't right so let's have a look check them again zero zero that's alright. Yeah. What's the next one? Ten when it's ten when we've got ten engines the weight should be one thousand. So there's ten and if you use your set square like that go along the ten and to the one thousand. That's okay. Right twenty Ah not quite on the twenty. Two thousand yeah it is it is. Right twenty two thousand. So the points seem okay what's wrong?they're not in a straight line. They should be cos it's a straight line equation. What's going wrong? What else could be wrong? The erm size Right so this this you made here when you you suddenly went up one instead of going up by two, so check the scale now. Er let's check the bottom one. Let's see how that's going. So each one of these is one engine. One so maybe you can write them all on now go along and write them on. One,Okay so that looks fine. Now what's happening up here, we're going up in hundreds. So do they go up did they all go along two squares at a time? Yeah okay. Do these all go up two squares at a time? One, two, three, four Yeah Now what's gone wrong here? Ah right down. Go on have you spotted anything yet ? Down here it's one, two, three, four, five, six Right. and then seven? And then suddenly Nine and then it goes suddenly two hundred. Right you started so you're going up in hundreds, it's two squares at a time, but only one hundred for each two squares. So you're quite happy with that, one hundred, two hundred, three hundred, four hundred, five hundred, six hundred oh I can do this standing on my head, right and you s you stop concentrating so much, and you've gone up to, so that should be a seven hundred Seven. okay. So if you'd like to correct the other's now. Sixteen hundred. Right now this one this one's going to be off our scale anyway so let's pick fifteen, N is fifteen. So go through and check them again now. Nought No engines, no weight that's okay, let's put a just leave that and put a tick on it. Now the next one ten and one thousand. Ten engines Yeah. Yeah okay so we can just sort of scrub that out or something. Fifteen fifteen hundred. Okay put that one in. Right now we'll scrub that one out, that point's rubbish now. Now try them see if it's a straight line. Right. Yeah. Okay? So the first time you did it you were pretty happy with it weren't you? Yeah. that's okay that's got that. You'd done the hard part correctly, calculating what the weight would be for so many engines. Working out your table, your table was correct nothing wrong with that. But because the scale was this funny thing of well two of them means one hundred, you're going along two at a time and it happens so often. I don't even know why I done that. You don't, nobody knows why, I've done it myself. Nobody knows why they do it but you do. You're going up two squares at a time and you're going one two three and it's usually when you get to around where I tend to do it is erm sort of eight and ten. I go one two three four five six seven eight ten twelve fourteen sixteen and I'll I'll think this graph's rubbish, oh I've got the scales wrong. It's so easy to do. So Yeah. check it when you've done your scale. I mean you've done it you think, Well I know it's right, there's no point checking it, I've just done it. I wouldn't do it deliberately wrong but it's so It was just I I was just looking at there them down there . Yeah okay. And I was thinking, Oh what's going on ? But I wanted I mean I'm glad you made the mistake because I wanted you to do it, because I wanted you to do it because as i you know you might you might get it right all the time and then do that in the exam. Mhm. Erm much better to get it wrong now and you can see Why No one knows why you do it I mean you you know you know what you should be doing, and it's not difficult it's just so boring. It's so repetitive marking your scale and people just lose concentration and I can do this you know and the next minute you you you've gone up in twos instead of ones. Happens a lot. So you've got your graph now and then they'd have a question on it and they might say, Erm what would be the weight with five engines? It now again we're picking Okay? Right now I'd like you to do this one on your own. It's a similar question. This time the weight of the lorry, it's the weight of the lorry we're interested it's a say it's a small van. Erm and the weight of the lorry is equal to eight hundred plus a hundred N. Yeah? And yeah leave it like that eight hundred plus a hundred N. It's sh shall we make shall we I'm just trying to think of making it a no I won't make it any more awkward. We'll leave it like that. Erm if you could draw a graph and use this table, N, zero, weight, whatever it comes to, erm four six eight ten. Okay? So if you can draw that one. The weight of the lorry, see the lorry weighs something itself so its total weight when it's got its load on is eight hundred plus a hundred times the number of engines on it. So you've got to do your table. calculator. Erm erm no. Right you can do that can't you. Yeah. You can do the hundreds. What you can do here,if you like is put W there. here we could have a hundred N right and then we'd add eight hundred on to each one couldn't we. I mean you can use a calculator if you like but have a go without. Okay? Okay and tell me what you're thinking as you're doing it. Ah what it is I want to find W so I can find that axis as well what Okay. that's gonna go have to go up to. Good. You know so I'll I'll do the table before I Right. do the graph. Okay good. Cos I might do a like a big graph like and and I only need a little tiny and you'll little tiny bit . Or you've done a tiny bit and you need something that's not Yeah. on your graph yeah. So Four times a hundred four hundred plus eight hundred is twelve hundred. So write write it in there what a hundred N is, four hundred. Four hundred. And what about this one erm nought? Nought times erm is nothing Yeah. plus eight hundred is eight hundred. Right. Yeah that's six hundred Right. erm eight hundred is fourteen hundred. Right. Eight hundred That looked like a one then . Yeah. Erm add eight hundred sixteen hundred thousand Okay and the question is now you you could do it just by working it out with the formula. But they say, Draw the graph and then read off, what would the weight the total weight be what is W when N equals fifteen and when N equal nine. okay? Do you want me to do it by doing the graph or Just say let's say they also want you to do I want you to do the graph er they wanted this one where it was twenty as well okay. Twenty times a hundred what would that be? Two thousand. Right okay good. There was a I ju I just looked there Yeah. I was being a bit lazy with myself then erm I just I just looked there and I was gonna double that Mm. and I I found I'd just put a hundred there instead and that's why I put two hundred It's so easy. there. Right. It's so I just easy when you're working with figures that are going up in regular steps and they all go up in regular steps and they all go up in regular steps and the next one doesn't. And you just, Wow this is easy this, add another two hundred on or Yeah. Yeah? So watch that in an exam. Cos you can you could do yeah you know you could you could this question on graphs and you come out the exam thinking, Wow great full marks on that. and you say, Well what did you get. Oh I didn't get that. Oh dear er ooh. and you find that you just slipped up on the scale or even on the calculating your table because you just, Oh this is easy this is easy. and you're not really concentrating. Yeah. Okay twenty eight hundred. Two thousand eight hundred right so. Yeah. W on the Y axis. That's it. So it's got to go up to two thousand eight hundred. Awkward? Yeah. Two square to get erm to go up in hundreds for two squares you'd want erm fifty squares wouldn't you . Yeah. Well just use one square, makes it easier. One square each. Yeah. Is twenty eight squares. It's not going to be as accurate and not going to be as easy to read it off but Yeah. if you can't fit it on your paper. Erm now is there any thing any other way you could do it? If you wanted it more accurate than that. What you can do is you could turn the graph that way up. you still have your W going up this way and you have your N going along that way. Yeah. Okay? It might work out better that way. Could you get you say this is about fifty. Could you get fifty six along there? Probably yeah. Okay okay so erm lo lose that little bit there sixteen, sixteen and thirteen? Twenty Twenty nine. twenty nine. Okay. And we're getting three squares to the centimetre so we go up there two centimetres and we get the so if we go up every two squares That three squares every centimetre? It's quite Sorry two. Two. Two you're right how did I how did I get how did I come out with three last time? Two squares every centimetre okay so we've got twenty nine so it will just fit on nicely Yeah. and we sort of get the Very little Yeah again it's not brilliant to do it this way but it will just fit on. So take that one along there. Right and then as we go along what have we got going along? That goes up to about sixteen Ooh we'll just fit twenty on. And we don't need to outside this at all cos the ones they're asking us are inside. So you'd get that one there. there's ten okay? Mm. And there's another ten and we'll just about fit it on if we go right up to the edge of the paper sort of leave one square. And you might think well where are we going to put the scale? Well we'll put it just put it the other side of the line. It's only to how us where it is. Okay so that's nought along here going up in twos I'll let you do that for for hundreds. Yeah we're going to go up to two thousand eight hundred aren't we so we're going up in Two hundreds. Each two is equal to one hundred, is that right? Yeah. So there's two squares there one hundred. Okay? Stop there a minute I know that's the way I started off. Er how are you doing on just going up in hundreds and not two hundreds? Have you checked. Yeah. About here I was I just had the urge you know Yeah. at twelve especially somewhere to go round the ten every happens to everyone they work you know ten twelve is the obvious one to go for the go eight nine ten twelve fourteen and then once you do it you don't realize you've done it and you don't stop. Yeah. Erm But a good a good way is to mark these twos out first yeah, and get them all marked. I know it's a little bit longer but then when you're going up later You don't You're not see you're not thinking in twos you're not thinking I'll go up one and up two squares and okay. So you could carry on along there. Now what's going to happen along the right hand axis we go up to twenty and so we can go along there in twos and it'll just fit on. Okay so then if you'd like to mark that out in twos. Another way of doing it of course is that as you're Hang on. Going up in twos every two You j right two sorry two squares erm is one engine. Yeah. I should have been a bit a bit clearer about that. Now as we've got nought one with a bit more room to fit in it it works a lot better. We can just look at them sort of measure them off right there's two three, four, five okay. So you're using the ruler to go along. So if you want to just go along there and mark them off. Any way that you can think of that will help to get these axes right because most of the time it's going to be this sort of thing I mean you said, Do you want me to work it you know use the graph or just work it out from this. It would be easier to work it out from this wouldn't it? Yeah. The so the equations they give you your ability to handle equations means really it would be easier for you to do it without a graph, half the time. But they want you to use the graph and that's what they're giving the marks for. the twenty okay? mark. So zero yeah zero is where ? eight hundred. Okay. So Right. and four is at? Twelve hundred. Six is at? Yeah hold on. Okay looking okay so far aren't they. Yeah. Erm so should I go on Yeah carry on with those. Fourteen. Okay? So Yeah. Ten er did we do six ? Oh no we've got Six at fourteen. Eight? Hang on eight at eight at what? Eight at Yeah. sixteen hundred. Ten? Ten eighteen. And twenty Twenty at two thousand eight hundred. Okay and they should all be in a straight line. Looks like it Yeah. I'll just and check them. Well that's lovely isn't it one beautiful straight line. You expect it to go a little bit just a tiny bit off Yeah. about half a square or so off. Erm a long ruler is a help. So when N is fifteen what's the weight? Twenty three hundred. Okay. And when N is nine what's the weight? Seventeen. Okay. Now what I'd like you to do I didn't realize it'd got that late actually. What I'd like you to do is do this question again now okay? And erm draw the graph for that work it all out yourself and another one. It's similar to that but it's very different. This is the this is the question then, W equals eight hundred minus a hundred N. There's a lorry loaded up with a lot of engines, and it goes off dropping them off and as it as you take an engine so N is the number of engines taken off. Now it's not eight hundred minus a hundred N because it starts of with erm twenty engines on already right. Let's say it starts of with just to make it a bit easier for you so it doesn't come like this let's say it starts with fifteen engines on, and what's its weight with fifteen engines on? Two thousand three hundred. Is is that right? Fifteen times a hundred plus the eight hundred yeah two thousand three hundred. Okay. So it's weight is two thousand three hundred minus a hundred N. Yeah I'd like you to draw a graph of that N is the number of engines taken off. Erm you might have you might st start thinking I don't know what he's getting on I don't know what this is all about. What's what's he mean by it what am I supposed to do. Just have a go at producing that graph and from it find out what is W when four have been taken off er when ten have been taken off and when fifteen have been taken off. Okay? You couldn't give me a few more equations just Equations I certainly could I certainly could. Oh now erm you're not at school next week do you No. want a lesson next week? I'm very happy you do one Yeah. if you want. You do? Okay erm Tuesday Wednesday right What I try to keep it the same time. what do you suggest I start to learn? Any thing I'm not sure n sure of cos I've r I've really ran the school out of paper threes . I I I think you're doing very well actually erm Is there a book I could buy or book. I wouldn't recommend this one it's just this is good for me because it's got sort of Yeah. examples in it. Erm distance and speed we haven't done distance and speed erm I've got that Lett's text book. You have have you Yeah. got that handy? Yeah I've got it here. Okay let's have a look at that I'll tell what we'll do I'll I'll suggest a couple of exercises in that for you to work through. He here could just Yeah there it is. Right I don't know where that one was that erm sheet hang on stop. No. Leave tho leave those in cos they're marking your place there I won't disturb those and let's have a a little look at this useful ones for you to do. I got that one you remember the geometry one Yeah. I did get that one. You're really brilliant at ge really brilliant at geometry I think it's great. And you're really enjoying maths now aren't you. Yeah. Yeah the the graphs it's just a question of doing a few and getting the feel of it and then we'll. So I'll give you some on erm on graphs. You're okay on trig ratios aren't you? Yeah. Here you are drawing graphs. Straight line. Erm you know what gradient is right. So if you do this formula in equations, rearranging equations erm put in standard form. exercises. Yeah under question things and they give you the answers in blue. Yeah I was looking for somewhere he doesn't. No they always give you the Okay. Solving problems. If you read through in this about equations okay. Simple linear equations you don't need to do the erm the brackets. So if you start about page fifty nine. Two point three O and check through that and just make sure that you're very happy with the stuff that they're doing. And each time you come to the exercise each time they says they say Here you are solve read through it with a bit of paper over it. Yeah. So you're not looking at the answer. Don't look at the answer. No. Look at the question and then just close the book and say right I'm going to try and solve this equation. If you get stuck, uncover one line just to see how they're starting. Don't look at the whole answer and then cover it up again and think right okay that's a start and then try and do all I mean you're not going to have the book to help you in the exam. So Yeah. try and do all of it on your own if you can. Erm if you can't check through the answers there. So you've got lots of stuff on equations all graduated and work through there some with brackets then with fractions. Formulae and equations yeah? And problems on them rearranging them and then through to these to the graphs. Now I'm not sure whether you do non-linear graphs erm don't forget to cover that side up when you're reading it. But if you go through there to all the way through to two point three three. And then in two point three three just do the linear just li linear just means it gives you a straight line. You can skip I mean you can go back to them if you finish this and you want more to do, skip the non-linear or the the not linear they call them right. Skip the not linear. Has that got anything to do with physics? Not cos like in physics we're doing these not or nor gates like. Erm You know as in not really. really. Not really no it's I mean not It's just that they say if you're doing physics sometimes you know this might help you Oh it does help a lot. you know It does help a lot. They do say that sometimes. It it really is true. Erm and then if you go onto drawing graphs from equations okay so skip that bit and just have a look at page sixty eight. Okay? Linear equations again, solving equations sixty eight, sixty nine, seventy. Have you done inequalities? Less greater then and less that. Yeah but I'm not I'm like that I'll have Okay. I have a look at it. Ok oh okay, erm I was going to say stop at two thirty five. But erm so you work through this lot. Yeah. Well I'd rather have more to do than have less to cos You're really getting through a terrific amount of stuff and you keep asking for more it's great. Really good okay. Erm so read through inequalities which is two point three five. Right now you may understand those you may think Oh I can't really get the hang of this. Doesn't matter and also two point three six work through that. Pythagoras you won't have any problem on that. No. And your trig two point three seven. Yeah. They sort of they tie together and you'll be using some equations and next time we'll give you som we'll have a look at graphs again just a quick Yeah. sort of I think you've got it now actually Yeah. it's just a question of you practise some. I think there was one question I'll I'll root it out for next time erm and I was really stunned on it I might be okay on it now. Right have a look at that again then Yeah. because there's going to be some question on graphs Yeah. there's always something on graphs. Erm what have I got here oh I know what I've got mustn't pinch our book must I. What's the date? Is it the first? Erm the first no it's the thirty first today. Thirty first leave a blank cos I forgot to ask him to sign it. Now if you like you can sign all it says is erm it just it's just telling you what it is and saying that you don't mind them typing up the words form this . Oh. They take out anything that can identify you or me erm if you know if I said sort of George or gave an address or a phone number they that would be chopped out. The tapes are erased afterwards what they do is somebody types it all up and erm then they build it all up on a computer. Yeah. How people use this and they put it in the dictionary. So if you're happy for them to use the tape okay. You just just sign there and that's cos they can't use the tapes without your permission even though they're destroyed. Erm yeah that's it. Right I'm in the middle of painting at the moment as well s I thought it'll be slack cos everyone's breaking up and everyone'll be saying forget and everyone's saying oh yes I do want a lesson. And I said in the holiday, Oh yes I do. So I I just hadn't allowed for it and er m my wife was saying I've got some finishing off as well quite a students finishing off and erm my wife said, put an advert in the paper. I said, Oh don't bother I always I always get people ringing up saying so and so's mother or father says or someone says you've been teaching them and can you take me or can you take my son or daughter and it always works like that. So my said, Ooh you know what if it doesn't you you know you'd have none for next term sort of thing I said well I've got quite a few for next term still. She said put an advert in. I'd just phoned it through and people started ringing up saying you know somebody's mother tells me and can you come and do our son because he wants to do this and Yes sure. That's my luck. Don't forget the tape recorder that would be silly. Yeah. How are we doing? That looks just about finished that okay. I'm not going to have time to get two I'll have a look through this before Erm you've got the Lett's it's a good one this. Well it's my sister's you know Yeah. she passed maths first time. Good good. Does she does she help you mush with it? Do you talk to her Yeah she she's I I hardly ever see her but when I do How old is she? Twenty Mhm okay. So I I don't really No when when you other things to talk to. Yeah. other things to talk about rather Yeah she'd get so she starts running when she see's you otherwise wouldn't she. Yeah. Right erm I think that stuff that you're doing there will be fine but particularly at this idea of a gradient think in terms of the slope of a hill which is effectively what it's measuring. You know you say, How steep is that hill? well for every hundred you go along you'd go up fifteen. Oh okay I've got some idea. Erm or they might tell you the angle. Just just think about that and just use that graph there If you wanted to work out the angle there, the tan of the angle would be that over that, but only when the scale is the same on both axes. So you can use this the tangent of the angle use your calculator What's the measurement for gradients? I isn't there one is it just a number . It's just it's just a number be because it's one length divided by another. Yeah. So it you went along erm. So if you had like metres on one side and centimetres on the other Right then your gradient Is that is that what it's Your gradient would be would come out sort of all wrong then. Mm. Yeah. So if you're saying if say it was a railway where the gradients are very not very steep at all. And they said it goes up erm ten centimetres every kilometre. virtually level. You'd think, Oh this is a big gradient. If you drew it on your graph it would be quite steep and it would look as if you were going up ten centimetres for every centimetre you went along which is almost vertical. You know so make sure the units are the same and the scale is the same so you're using the same number of squares for each one. If you want to just measure the angle and use the tan. Now usually in the exams they work it so you can't do that cos they give you a graph already drawn and they'll have sort of erm two squares is equal to one unit along the bottom but only one square equals one unit Yeah. sort of going up. So if you do just measure the angle they say, Find the gradient and erm find the the angle. and you can't just measure it. So you'll have to do that. Erm I I I think you're doing really brilliantly. Yeah. I think you're doing very well. you you can tell yourself now that you you're really Yeah. getting a feel for it what you're doing. So if you work through those chapters erm Yeah. and then go back over stuff that you've done earlier that you haven't been able to understand where you've felt, Ooh I don't know what's going on here. erm and now see if you can make sense of it. Look at what you've written and think, Oh I was just fumbling about here I didn't know where I was going. and write it out again the way is should have been. How it should have been there and Can you tell us what er what section you work in? I work at the weaving In the weaving? section, aha. And And what do you do? I'm what you call a Axminster handler Aha. which involves like when the frames comes off the weaving and they're yarn left, I strip the yarn off. Mhm. Off the, the, the weaving frames. Mhm. That's basically my, aha. It's quite spec specialized so No no, no, no. It's not specialized, no. Mhm, have you ever worked in any other factory? Aha, I worked in spooling, I've been left now two year. And how did you find that? Er, I liked the spooling but some I just don't know, some of the girls get kind of one one thing by the other I can object to, I think it was actually the atmosphere of the, the girls that worked in the department that I Mhm, mhm. just objected to. Mhm. But it was a good job. And have you worked in here for many years? Oh yes. Ca more than I care to remember. Aha. Unless it been, like I left from my kitchen. Aha, and is this your first job? Aha, aha. You left straight from the school? Yes. And er what attracted you to the job, did you know somebody that worked here? Er, no, we just like actually applied, like Saxone were, they were looking for girls then, Saxone, B M K, and this was the, the, one that And how did you do that? Did you just walk round the factories and put your name in the office? No no, we just er came down to Personnel Office and Aha. asked if there was any jobs going. Mhm. So they took a list of, they took your name? Your names. Mhm. And then sent for you. Right, erm so do you think the place has changed much in the years that you've worked here? Oh factory-wise, aye, aha. Mhm. I mean it's, it's gonna seem, it was an awfully big factory over there, it's a different factory entirely. Mhm. Mhm. More like a big shed here. That's all it is. Mhm. But you cannot expect I mean we was actually lucky there was a job there now, when it closed down. Mhm. I was lucky the factory started up again. Mhm, mhm, er so how did you find arrangements when you left to have your children, did you feel that your job was secure? Did you feel satisfied? I suppose a job more or less was always secure at that time, aha. Mhm. Because it is a kind of semi-skilled you know. It was always more or less Mhm. secure. And what happened when you came back, did you er wait until your kids were that wee bit older or did your family Well help you out? Nigel started a kind of evening shift, that you was there with your kids during the day and then your husband got them at night and you come out and worked at nights, so it Mhm. kind of works. Oh that's Well that was, mhm. And are you from ? Sorry? Are you from ? Aha, aha. And so was it, do you just travel er the bus? It's er I stayed up like, aha, in Street at the time you know. So it was quite convenient. So were there any, nowadays you know if there's any opportunities to come back part time, if you've got small children. No, there was nothing like that, no, I think there's only one girl I've ever part time. Mhm. It's started up again. Mhm. We work, to my knowledge only one girl. Mhm. Erm so do you feel that in the years that you've worked here are women just as important in the factory and make up a large part of the workforce now as they, as they've ever done? They do important jobs in the factory? Well I think actually not as, as, as many as there were the, like in the other, years ago, but that's to be expected nowadays. I would say there were more men in important jobs in here than there is Mhm. Does that ever cause any resentment if there's, you know if the, a man's a head of a section where there's a lot of women who maybe feel that you could do the job as well? No it's more petty things that's resented than actual, the actual Aha. job, it's just petty things that Mhm. like obsessed girls you know. Mhm. If one gets a better design, if one gets bobbins and the other doesn't get the, they just scrap, you know,scratch one another 's eyes out . Is there a lot of that? Oh ye you'd actually think they was making their own pay the way they carry on, I mean Aha. you've got to . It doesn't matter what job, but there's a wee bit resentment among just the girls themselves. Mhm. Mhm. Aye, and have you any nicknames for people in the factory? Oh y we used to have the Sisters. They retired a fortnight ago,, called the oh aye there are a few nicknames for them, including the Sisters. Anybody else? Erm they call me Doughnut, which I detest. Why's that? My name's and my sons get called Doughnuts so I get called Doughnut. Erm, no just to kind of or the wee one or something like this, aye,. Mhm. Mhm. Or the biggie. Oh bi aye, the big one. Mm, biggie . Aha. Mm. Yeah, what else? Oh do you do anything? Do you ever keep up with people outside work? And have you made any friends that you do things, maybe go for a drink or ? Well actually before we come here, like back here we've had weekends in Belgium. Mhm. And weekends in London. And we're booked up to go and see Cats in January, oh we've quite a few and then like, there actually spooling's quite good at organizing for er charity. Mhm. And we have nights out and things like this, for that. Mhm. Oh definitely. And what do you do, do you just put so much a week in a kitty for that? Well if we're going to be somewhere. No, we used to actually actually do that, like you had nights out, maybe Christmas and certain times of the year you had a night but that's kind of stopped here. No, it's more like just save ourselves more Mhm. or less you know. There is a girl that collects money if you want to give her it. Mhm. She collects for all the charities and her, she's a great organizer, terrific. She organizes everyone. And do you get a lot of er pay offs and things in the factories now? You get a few but not our bit, it's actually more at the picking now where all the young ones are. Mhm. There not many, there, it's just them started, Mhm. like er there's four young ones just out of spooling. Mhm. And what do you do when somebody's er having a pay off, do you do her out and the aye, the works, aha. And is that done in the work? Er no the girls take it home. Mhm. And do the quoting in their spare time. Mhm. There's a lot of work involved in that. And do they make up verses and things for it? Mhm, take her round the factory? Round the factory, aye, Mhm. aye. It's not changed. No, how about the men, do you do anything for the men? Grease and oil and you name it, mhm Really? Mhm. There was a big gi big woman once in here at the weaving, oh and she's huge, and oh she goes for the men, she does, the works on the men, and we leave it all to Magda. Aha. What was I , oh yes erm, do you find that like maybe like one section thinks they're a wee bit better than another section? Mhm. Because of the kind of job they're doing or the fact that they're getting a wee bit more pay? They do, mhm, mhm, they do. And who, who thinks they're best? Erm spooling, I would say, department thinks they're one up on everybody else. Mhm. . The cream. The cream, aha. From under the cow. And that's where I used to work in but that's the reason I left, because I thought actually some of them was getting kind of uppish. Aha. Aye. this, that, and the next thing. Mm, mm,anything else I was going to ask you, I think that was about it, was it? Aye, well I mean the social activities you used to have in the old place, were th were those any better than over here? When we started here it looked er but we'll only get actually six weeks, said you've got six weeks work, that's all . Mhm. But it's lasted about seven year, so you never can organ but once we did start I did enjoy the ones over here because over there when your kids were small you didn't go out much anyway but now that your kids are up you've got it, and personally I enjoyed the ones that started but they don't have Christmas dance, barn dances and things like this, they don't org we have to have to organize like that ourself. Mhm. But the work doesn't organize anything like that. Did those used to be big things? Mm, they used to have like big dances and thin in the Grand Hall of all places,but music was once a year, things like that but they don't have that now. Mhm. Did they used to have clubs and stuff,the Oh they have er, we can join the cricket club,like er B M K workers pay in so much and they are members of the cricket club. Mm. You can go to that? Mhm. I don't think there was really that many Mhm. down for that. Mhm. Mhm. And do you get any perks like do you get any discounts in the town, through ? Aha, they'll say you get a card like d for the jewellers, and things like that. Mhm. Jewellers,, not much mind you, but it's always helped. You don't get any cheap carpets, no? You're joking. You're joking, we get our chicken and that's it at Christmas. You get a chicken at Christmas? We get a chicken at Christmas, aha, sorry a turkey. A turkey? A turkey, we get that at Christmas. To take home? Mhm, frozen, and you've, by the time you've thawed it in forty eight hours, it's no use for Christmas time, that's what I've got against it. So you've got to actually store it till new year cos you can't, you haven't got time to thaw it out? Mhm. But that's our perks, that's it. A turkey. is it the fair holidays you get? Aha, aha. A fortnight at the fair? Fortnight at the fair. Mhm, what's your kind of favourite places for going? Well the last f four year I've been abroad. Mhm. We've been to the Canary Islands, and was er Bulgaria last year, I've been to Yugoslavia, Mhm. oh, aye,places. Mhm. Mhm. I like to try a different pace very year to see what it's like. Aha. And do a lot of people go abroad now do you think from the factory? Mhm, mhm. But you have to work damned hard to, all year round to get Aha. that fortnight, I mean it's Mhm. Mhm. impossible to like if my husband and I didn't work. Whereabouts does your husband work? He works in . Mhm, mhm. Mhm. You've to work and you've to work overtime and you be round the clock. Mhm. Mhm. You've to work to get that fortnight. And do you find that if you didn't have the overtime then you, you'd be struggling with your wage? Och,aye, because I actually dropped twenty pound coming from the spooling to the job I'm doing just now. Mhm. Dropped twenty pound, this actually me on the bottom scale Mhm. I work at just now. But is it a better job do you think? No I wouldn't say it was a, I would say it was far dirtier and Mhm. I mean before you used to have your own, your own, like the job I'm, I was started for I've got sweep all the floor, the place where we work. Mhm. I've got to do that twice a day which I didn't know we actually had to do when I started it. Mhm. Mhm. Aye. Aha, I would resent, I'd resent that. Mhm. Because I'm not kidding you, see that , I mean I've to buy big bags of it. Mhm. Mhm. Aye, I object to it. And when did you move to that job? As I say I didn't I thought the girls was plus that fact it was a lot of concentration for the spooling. Mhm. And with this in this thing now that B M K's in, every had got to be spot on. Mhm. And you could easily make a mistake with the work, you get all worked up. I used to get worked up if I made a mistake, I mean, I weave and a nervous breakdown spooling No way. Mhm. So I thought then it was time to move. Mhm, but so you're, you're quite happy in your job? I like it fine, except for this brushing, I object to all this mess it's doing and Mhm. things like that. Mhm. That's the only thing I've got against it. Mhm. But how do you feel B M K could other factories in the town, do you think it's a good, good factory to work in? Well basically I see we get less holidays than every other factory. Mm. I mean we're not allowed as many holidays as, as most of them, but then again it was starting up so we just had to take it that way. Mhm. Aye. It's either that or you'd no job, and Mhm, do you have a family? But I actually think if there's more factories opened up in and thing, I think going with the talk a lot of men, especially men would, would look for jobs elsewhere because you don like in here the men don't get paid if they're ill. I mean Mhm. you only get like, they ge the guys are on get pound a week if they're ill Aye. fifteen pound at the most, they, in other factories they ge for six month men get their full wage. Mhm. Well they don't get that in here unless you're higher up the scale like a tenter or something that's , things like that. Aye. But down the scale a bit and the, the men don't get I feel sorry for them I mean you've kids and everything. Mhm. The likes of us we've got a man behind us, but the likes of them I feel sorry for, they cannot actually afford to be sick and that's it. Yeah. Mhm. So Do you have a family? I've two boys, aha. And where do, where do they work? Er one's in the, works for himself, he's brickie, and there's one works in the glazer. He, he used to work in here Mhm. Mhm. but he started in the glazer about two months ago. Mhm, do you find that's a, a common thing that mothers and fathers'll maybe get their kids a job in where they work? Well I don't think they would actually but my, my sons are into, to trade you know. Mhm. But it closed down it's closed so Mhm. I just got him in here and then he got into , er the glazier. Mhm. so it was better conditions in there. Mhm, mhm. I mean he liked his job in here right enough but it was more money and better conditions in the glaziers so Aye. Mhm. he bought a flat do he had to go where he was getting, aye, more money, and then again as I say if he was ill he would get his pay for so long. Mhm. Mhm. It's just things like that just You have to weigh up the pros and cons. Mhm, mhm. Mhm, and you feel that youngsters nowadays have maybe less opportunity than you had yourself when you were leaving school? Och, aye,I have, aye. Mhm. Girls, it's a shame really I also find they didn't need to, they don't, didn't need to work as hard as the ones years ago. Mhm. They only will stand for the same, I don't think they're going to stand for the same conditions Mhm. that we used to have to make our own and I'm not kidding you, and was ne was a you know? Mhm. With things like that, I think the young ones that way Mhm. have kind of changed Mhm. I mean I think we're all when theirs were running about but they're Mhm. kind of calmer I think the younger ones. Mhm. I think they're a lot calmer. Do you think the young the younger generation are too lazy? No, I mean it, not lazy, I would say they're cleverer, put it that way. Aye, Mhm, more common sense than we had. Mhm, mhm. So do you ever see the town picking back up again, and getting a few more factories in the ? Mm, I'd hope so but I don't think so. So Look at at one time the and you had er well you've got Johnnie Walkers but there are not as many works in that either. Mhm. Cannot see it, no. This is what I mean. Do you think there's there's a kind of widespread feeling that nearly everybody feels like that? Aye, and they feel as though they've got to stick to the job they've got, especially at our age. Aye. Where could we get a job at our age? Mm. So you've just got to Mhm. it's that or nothing. Mhm. And unfortunately the bills comes in just the same as you've got to stick it. Right thanks very much. Alright. Have you tried it? No have you tried it? Yeah. I can't even The doorbell's not working. Push it hard. I can't hear it. Push it Oh it's gone. Yeah, you've gotta push in the middle. Go on push it hard. Ah. Hi ? Yeah. We've been to haven't we? Have you? We went to the crossing I went up to the car park and across That's handy He bought himself er a padded shirt, you know? A padded shirt like Alfred had for Christmas? Mum Robert had for Christmas. He had one for Christmas did he? Well I, I, I asked him what he wanted for Christmas Yeah? and he said get me a padded shirt, he said, Joycie's getting me one he said and I want two. Oh. So that's what I bought him. And I was looking in the yesterday and they sell them in You Can't Go Wrong for five ninety nine for Robert. Mm. Ten ninety nine he paid for his. It's a nice, nice thick one though. Yeah. Mind I saw them in tt they were the same price in erm You Can't Go Wrong and tt the place opposite Woolworths in Caerphilly Yeah. Campaign on a what do you call it and erm and funny enough I was reading the Campaign yesterday and I was looking at the er thing and they've got a sale on haven't they? Yeah. Anyway, erm we went to the Ca Polly hadn't seen them in the shops anywhere and went to Caerphilly market on Saturday morning and as we were coming from it he said look there's a shirt you want for Robert there. So I thought well in case I can't get them anywhere else the market and he said well we'll have one from here, twelve ninety nine. We goes up town the following week then to get and I forget what I was looking for, oh it was I was looking for your blouse Yeah. and erm they had this one down in the shop next to er Aye and erm they had them in the window there twelve ninety nine. Mm. And I went down, I went somewhere else there was a few places I saw them so erm I said to , I said to Robert now you know those shirts, that shirt I bought you for Christmas? And he said yeah I said I could've got two for the price of one. see that then. Padded leisure shirts five ninety nine and I read the bloody thing out yesterday. No wonder Nan can you see them Yes love. They've dug up Yes they I can't get up now mummy. I can't Oh you know padded shirts for padded shirts nine ninety nine to twelve ninety nine. Cos Ken said, first of all he couldn't find any and he said oh he said perhaps I should've bought them when I saw them, nine ninety nine. But anyway he saw this one stall and he had a look and they had three racks of them for ten ninety nine and then we found some others then, they were they were ten ninety nine but they were as thick as these other ones. They were twelve ninety nine . But erm the shop opposite er you know there's the market and there's a cake shop, opposite there by the shop, they've got a sale there. Stock clearance. By, by the, you know wallpaper Yeah Mm. and then there's a shop next to it and he's selling er stock clearance sales there and that's where he saw them, the padded shirts, there. Mm But I didn't look, I didn't stop, it was raining so bad Thursday morning and windy that I I went to the market, I cut straight through and went up and Di went to get the paper then he went . So we, we were back in here by half past eleven Thursday I didn't want to stay out in the cold. Mm. Yeah Yippee! I wanna get him another towelling dressing gown because the blue one he had on the caravan he brought home for the winter bring them home and wash them. But he would he said don't wash it I wanna wear it. So really he could do with one for down there and one for home. But the Yeah. only other one he's got is a silk one so er I was gonna go on Tuesday and have a look and they had them there before Christmas, seven ninety nine and, but it said one size now I don't know whether the one size will fit Di because the last one I had for him I sent away for and I had erm so I don't know whether them down there would fit, they were seven ninety nine, there were white and lemon and pale green that was striped I think. They had some nice thick ones in Peacocks but they were seventeen pound well sixteen ninety five and they didn't reduce them for the sale. Mm. He wouldn't let me pay that for it, he said that they had at the shop. And when we went then after Christmas the shop was closed down for the There we are! the Christmas holidays. I'll have that one. You know the mini market top of I, I usually get the bargains? Yeah. Well when Ken said about the headboard last week they were selling sheets on mini market I said pink ones and grey ones but I said not while they had the Christmas stuff in, it was before the Christmas stuff they must have taken them out you know I Mm I was thinking perhaps they'd bring them back. So Thursday we, we usually come out of Bridge Street, go round the corner and then down to the end of the , car's parked at the end of the lane. So I said wonder if they've got that headboard for Ken, you know I didn't know he had one I said we'll have a look and see how much they are. When we got there, it's all locked up. Oh that's for stocktaking they said. And we looked through the side windows and there's not a thing on the ruddy counters, it's cleared out. There's nothing there at all so there's no stock they can sell, they've shut down I expect. Mm. And the week before it was all Christmas stuff was still in there. Oh you know in, you know in Ponty? You know that great big double shop that's a mini market? They always got chairs and wicker baskets and things Mm outside. That's gone. They've got one in they've got one in like that as well haven't they? Irene had her jardiniere thing Yeah. Mm. They shut up have they? Yeah and that was a big one that was cos that went downstairs an'all. Yeah. Just gone. Mm. Mind now as you say the recession. Didn't Rhys wanna go to the match today though? He did, yes. Well he come round here he said are you ready? Robert and er Rob said aye we're going. And I said what's the matter Rhys? And Di said what's the matter, you've got a face as long as a fiddle? Everything, he said he went Oh what happened was he was going to the match Mm. and then his friends come knocking at the door, you coming out to play football Rhys? No I'm going to the football match with dad. You're gonna watch Cardiff City ? And so of course they started pulling his leg then see? And he said he said No, are you gonna watch Cardiff City lose again. That's right, twenty five nil. So Rhys says oh how did you guess but erm he come in then, he said I'm not going to the football mum. He, hmm So I said to him well alright then I said er if you're not going to the football match you can go upstairs to your bedroom and tidy your bedroom again. Well when I say again he hadn't touched it. It's a mess innit Cerys? He makes more mess in his bedroom than she does and his is because, not only is it all papers and books and toys and everything else, it's all his clothes as well. He don't put any of his clothes away and if he's looking for anything it's all fling out of drawers and on the floor, he don't care. And if I've hung his coats up once I've hung up, I've hung them up a hundred times, he's got a coat hanger on the back of the coat hook on the back of the door Well I gave him two when he stayed here to stay er to hang er on his door and he and I'm not kidding you, he's got his blue coat that he wears down the garden, you know the one with all the , he's got erm his army jacket, a grey jacket erm tt how many has he got ? I think there's another jacket that he's got and there's no room to keep them all downstairs on the hook hanging in the passage Mm. so I told him to keep them on the back of that door. You put them up on the door, they're on the floor. You pick them up again you put them back on the door, he chucks them back on the floor. Oh Robert he used to Terrible! he'd go upstairs and Shirley would have put all the clean clothes back in the wardrobe and he'd go in the wardrobe oh, no I won't wear that, no I won't wear that and half the time she found the cleanest clothes were all rolled up under the bed. Mm. Yeah. They ain't half done a lot of r er lorries and that going back and forward today over there. Yeah here didn't they? They were working up by er Well they seem to be anyway. they'd gone past the , they were working outside the you know where, as you go to B & Q? The a sort of curve toward, behind B & Q so, and they, they sort of on the slope there. this morning , we didn't have a warning yesterday I dunno erm tt I was up er David's and Eileen's when it went and their windows rattled. Yesterday? Mm. Tuesday we had hell of a bang. And er erm Eileen said then she said we never had a warning then did we? So I dunno whether it's because we've got used to it Ah. do you know what I mean? Cos I mean it's only like a siren, it's only going ooh ooh ooh innit? And you notice it. Well anyway I for half past three yesterday Anyway you definitely hear the bang. Yeah, I said it's due to go off now, I said, half past three and we waited and waited and he said well it's ten to four by me he said and I haven't heard one. Yeah it went off yesterday. It went off about erm half past three. twenty five past three He probably had the telly on so perhaps I just didn't but the last time they had er a siren on it wasn't all that load I thought. Whether it's cos the wind was blowing that way I dunno. Did you eat those Ferrero Rocher I sent up to you? Ooh she liked them didn't you? Oh Iris didn't. She had a box full for Christmas, she ate three odd one, right? Mm. She sent, they were in those little strips, she sent three in for me, she said and have you tasted these I said I don't think so, so she sent them, I'd tasted the other ones but not those white ones so she sent three of them in for us. And he he caught her the other day, she was putting them out for the birds, she don't like them but she said . So he come in here he said Iris is putting those Ferrero Rocher things out onto the, onto the birds' table he said, she don't like them. He said she said they're like . I said well what the hell's she doing Arthur, if she don't want them tell her to come, send them in here I said and give them to the kids. But that's all she sent in were those two. I said she might've sent a full packet give one to Barry, one to Rhys and one to Cerys but there was only two Mm. Oh they're nice they are. I thought they were they weren't too bad, I didn't like them I ate mine in the car. I couldn't get mine out of the packet Expensive they are that sort of thing. Ah ah ah ah Now don't be silly, get up. Get up. You've got a sweet in your mouth Cerys I can't Get up! I can't . Course you can. Oh oh. I think I can . Yes that's it, don't be silly. What sort of party did you have last week at the chapel? Alright? Yeah. Did you dance? Sing? It wasn't like a party at all. Wasn't like a party? At all. I know the one er the Girls' Brigade wasn't it you said, but you had another one last Saturday didn't you? Yeah Well what do you mean nothing like a party then? Didn't you have crisps? Mm. And cakes? And didn't they sing? Oh. I don't know why you bothered to go. I can't see singing in the party Debbie's daughter the one that comes round with her sometimes she's er she went into hospital on Tuesday er er Monday that's right, she had operation Tuesday for her tonsils, come out yesterday or she was supposed to come out yesterday. But she didn't? Well I expect she did but I saw Debbie Thursday night and she said about her and er I said er how long has she been in, she said Tuesday she had the op she said and she's due, she'll probably be coming out tomorrow Ooh tomorrow. Tomorrow? Mm. Tomorrow? Oh you mean Yesterday. Cos I was talking to Debbie Thursday. Ah so she might be so she might be coming out tomorrow Cleared out all the chest of drawers and wardrobe the other day didn't we? Yeah She's got nothing to wear now. I heard she was trying on everything to see what That's right. fitted and what didn't. Yeah. The haven't been open have they since before Christmas? them open. I know, I they haven't been open all this week. I've been, I was thinking today actually when I was walking up the road and I thought oh the is shut again. They're gonna close down aren't they? I think so. I think, I think that last erm break in has done it to death hasn't it? Er they've still got a Father Christmas outfit in there er er in one window the one next to the shop. Mm. But I've been up the road every day this week, not shopping but just out for a walk, you know? If I can get out, Mm. but most days but erm and the bar's right across the door and last week when I went out they still had er er one or two bits of Christmas stuff in the one window and some balls of er in there. Mm. But that window's completely cleared out now and it hasn't been open at all this week. No. Betty says a window in Caerphilly had been knocked in, Oh yeah? There's a board up to that. And where is the other one I saw? The wine store up the top end there, they Aye that's right. They've got erm They've got a big piece of wood they've got a board, yeah. Yeah a board up their window Yeah that's right. I did twelve. Mm. But you know it surprises me I mean I know the church is, is closed and it's been closed for a couple of years now and it looks a sight because now I don't know how many members they've got, at least a couple of them could go in there and cut all the brambles down. Mm. I mean if you belong to a church you do something to make it look tidy don't you? I mean that church isn't in such a bad state bloody fall on you all the time. You go past there and you look in that front and people have been dumping bags of rubbish over there. Yeah, they will. Little tiny white bags full with cans and odd just dump , I mean there's no respect at all lately is there? You wouldn't think of doing it years ago Mm. even if the church was And they've cut all the side, the other side , Church Street they've cut all the hedge of the church down there and dumped all the grass inside, no not the grass, the branches, inside well you'd think they'd get a blooming lorry or a van to take it all down the blooming tip wouldn't you? Mm. To ta just to make it look a bit respectable because it's a church, they're using that part of it. Yeah. absolutely terrible. I said to Nan about it the other day aye he says but they weren't supposed to cut anything down he said, they were only supposed to cut a bit off the top. Well I said that doesn't excuse the thing of, of tipping all over and putting it inside and not shifting it. It looks terrible. Nan which church Mm. was the bit that's sticking out on the path. Yes. No somebody could go in there who belonged to the church anyway, two or three of them and it wouldn't take long cutting all those brambles and things away. Tt nan do you mean the Cubs' church? Yes. Cos then they usually make fires. Well I, I don't know what's stopping some of the , they'll go up one day er there one day and they'll Why can't they leave throw something over it would be up. Nan why can't they leave just a little patch of grass for the fire? . I said to Di if you want pea sticks that's the place to go because they've got and he said oh I go now. But er you'd think they'd get a lorry or something to shift it from there. Mm. It's a fire hazard really isn't it? You know with kids today. And I tell you another thing I noticed, I cut through the car park in the lane behind Shirley's one day this week, I went through and and the back door of the old police station's open. And all the windows in the back are broken. Mm. So I expect somebody's been and er the er the door thing, you can get in the back way and in through the back door. I bet there's some people sleeping in there in the night. Someone could easily make a fire in there. I mean if they're not gonna use the building and they can't sell it, gut it. Cos they said they were gonna sell it then they changed their mind, they were gonna pull it down If they can't sell it, pull it down and put something else in. It's no good is it now? Put something else in like a flat. Shouldn't think it's very nice inside. There's room for flats I think. Mm. Even on the ground floor. There was Nan. Ah ah! Is that all you've got on the line, one tea towel? Well that's not a tea towel there, nanny cleaned her windows yesterday and er when I, I'd wiped er with a cleaning off I washed it up again and I put it out yesterday and I keep forgetting to bring it in. Tt well if somebody's desperate that they want to pinch that they're quite welcome to it. That's right. It's bits I took off the sheets is that, that I er Mm. I was gonna tack the, the end down so Nanny why didn't you remember they was up What? this morning, that Well when I drew the curtains back this morning I thought oh damn You were lucky that no one pinched them. Oh well they can have it, It isn't big enough for anything only go down the park come down to the park? There's a rugby match going on up there, there's people watching that and there's people down with kids. I need a ladder, I need a ladder. Mm. No we saw we saw the people in the park when we walked down didn't we? That way. You wasn't long then because I went Er we went erm as far as erm Level crossing Mm the crossing past the It's nice when you're walking. No not past the it's by the innit, the crossing is? Mm. one piece round here and then the other piece goes around there and it's the only thing is I think you keep on tripping over. No I , I like this I wore my hat, scarf and gloves today I'm lucky I wore it. Yes she wore them over in Ponty didn't you? Cos she said I'm hot. Ooh I walked and walked I Di, Di didn't have but the one but he come up, he said said he wants a spirit level and he wants a tape measure he'd got the spirit level he said I can't find the tape measure he said,said it was on top of the bag. I said where's your hat? And cor he says, making me hot, it was in my pocket. Well I said don't go catching cold. I goes out there and he said I dunno where that tape measure is, there's two bags here. And the tape measure's that size and it was on top of the bag. I said that's the tape measure Ooh there was a car out here last night Hazel and it was revving up then you hear a door go, and they weren't closing it's bang! Then there was voices, and then it sounded as if the boot went down and then there was the doors bang again and then it revved off and it wasn't long it came back. Well I stuck it for a long time, Di went to sleep and I got out and I had a look and I, the only thing that I could see, and it was two o'clock, half past two this morning, er the er the one side of the big house over there was full of lights, they had all the lights on and there were two cars outside with their lights on. So Mm. So every time I thought I was dropping off they'd start. the telly on here sometimes, and you're listening to telly and And all you can hear is erm Her snoring! I know it's stupid innit? Mm. That looks Aye the way they've put it it makes you think you a card and you win. Ah! Oh Oh don't! Your mother's yawning, she's making me yawn. Oh. Have you had a Mirror? No. We only have the Echo. Yeah the Echo. The Echo Mummy Ooh it's twenty past four. It is twenty past four. Well go on, try it. Yeah. There's a crack on there,, be careful. Mm. Mummy mum Yeah? Got a nice little table though in the secondhand place up the Is that the brown one? A brown Mm. I've been on to Di this long time and have one like that, then you can and put down so you can have more room, you know, when you put it out. Mm. And he said give it away. Mm. And and they had one there last week, a light one and on the s the and on each end was a little drawer. Handy for papers and magazines. Mm. Nanny what's your lucky tree? There. Ooh! and they go all shapes. Ooh There's a bit of polythene on the top love er that's it, to keep it clean. Lift the top thing off altogether, the top there you are, it'll come off with it. yeah. That one was on the top before, that one was. Ooh that one's nice, Oh yeah. What was that now? I dunno That looks like a little island with water round it. Could be. Where did you get these? Vera next door brought them back from Spain for me. Spain? Mm that one? Which one do you think is best? Erm I know spread them out What on earth is, is that? ? Which ? Oh no not until erm next week. Next week? I know it's daft, she said should've gone Christmas week and I said I'm not going down Christmas week so I went the week before. And then till the twenty third of January. Nan I've picked a nice one to go on top. Good. I've got an appointment in the hospital the second week of March and she said go down and have a blood test about three weeks before at least three weeks before. Mm. So Nan is that ? Ah. Nan that looks a nice one to go on top. It is innit? All I need is That one Nan is it awkward to get in? Yes love, it is. Mm mm. Wh I I had and it took me ages to get it all back in. And Ooh! Look what I've got. Ooh look at the finger marks on it now! There's a blue sky out there. Wonder if we'll have a nice day tomorrow again. Nanny No ooh Well I don't think you have ! I , I don't think you have ! You just wanna see I don't! How long is it since it was last, the end of October we had the washing machine wasn't it? It was November wasn't it? I dunno. Anyway, I put it in the paper,phoned in the paper and they said it'd be at least a week or fortnight before so I didn't like but it never came out in the paper. So I phoned them again and er they took it down and then I didn't see it in the paper again so when I phoned again and said why haven't you put it in she said well, of course, she said, if you pay two pounds she said two pound fifty Mm. you get pr priority. Anyway they had a, a special coupon in the Campaign this week and I said to Di I said phone this number I said and put our washing machine in, I said they're not taking no notice. So he phoned up and he had to redial two or three times before he started . And then she checked Well anyway the week after he'd phoned there was no what you call in it so he wrote it in to the damn thing and said why is it when some people puts adverts in they not only put it in once they put it in three or four times the same week Mm. this week again there's a lot of repeats in it, and he said other people that send adverts in can't even get er a look in, they don't , anyway that, after he wrote the letter it was in the following week. But as you know a woman come, we, she saw it in the Post Office in the meantime and we sold it. phoning now seen it in the paper we told them it was sold. We had three calls last week not it's, it's about a month since , wanting to know about the washing machine and we said it's sold sold er a couple of weeks ago. Anyway three people have phoned yesterday, we had two phone calls yesterday, in the morning I had one last night and there was another one this morning about the washing machine and I said sorry but I said the advert was put in the Campaign I said a month or so ago. No she said it's in this week. So anyway yesterday afternoon I was checking through it when the phone went again to ask about the washing machine and I was looking through the paper to see whether, and they'd put it in this week! Silly things. You've got sticky mitts now go and wipe your sticky mitts, go on Yes the nights are drawing out Yeah. Thank God. The mornings are still dark though. Mm. Oh shut the door! Push the handle up. That's it. Ooh. Your mother's covered him up because he's cold. Can you imagine anybody walking along with that, they'd wanna Walking along Rhys would. Oh Rhys would. Carolyn bought herself another one I think. When she brought it down the hospital she said here you are nan er mum she said, nan she said it's a present for you she said, so we did laugh. But course when I opened it up Robert said Carolyn wanted that back he said she bought for herself and I said she didn't say that Oh. So when I er went up, I took it up with me and said to Carolyn I said I said you wanted your mum to have this, said oh nan you can have it, I'll go into and get myself another one she said. Reminds of erm Mick Jagger Mm. in his mouth. Playing with a man's bare bum Your nan's being rude It's surprising how it's surprising how much stuff that collects under there isn't it? Nan have, have you had a look at those things with er you press this thing and they pull their trousers down? The moonies? Yeah. Aye you have them in a car? And all of a sudden Yeah. their trousers go down. Mm. in my bedroom. You had one in your bedroom? Hiding in the window. We're not going to have anything for tea tonight are we? Yes we are. Come on stand still. What were we gonna have? I can't even think of what to have. Oi oi oi Well I had, there's some soup in the freezer from when I put a tin, a tin of chicken soup and Di used the last of the turkey in it, and we had some and what was left I put in a dish Nan why do they make him wear the trousers like? Cos his legs are too short. trousers Wouldn't be so much fun then would it? Yeah you know trousers come down Whatever happened to she had them for years up there and, and when we cleared out the house I forget what we done with them. You only had to press his head Nan Mm. look at that, He's kissing Yeah. oi oi oi come on. He's kissing her hand. Then we jump off, whoooo! shop might be closed down after Christmas. No they've got a lot of nice er They're still there aren't they? and that there now Yeah. although they've reduced the price Mm. But he doesn't do much Every time I pass he's sitting Mm. Di said it's a biology instruction in your school, you wanna take it. Do you watch Neighbours? No I don't watch Neighbours. No, we don't. There's Cody, er I, I think it's Cody in Neighbours and er her boyf No . And her boyfriend's name is Todd Mm. well they were having a biology lesson, she'd been all about these , they'd been this biology I'll just let it run on. Something I maybe should ask you about before you start Yes. were you you born? I was born at Odness. At the back of Odness the houses were called the Westness . The Westness. Mhm. Yeah yeah. Born in nineteen twenty. Mhm. And that's a farm was it that you were born in? Well er my father worked at the farm Odness. Mhm. That was where he worked. And did you move around when No. No no no no no no. And he did the fishing too. the fishing and worked on the farm and Mhm. at nights they the lobster fishing And haddock. White fish. Was it always at night they went? at night after they were finished with their work on the farm in the daytime. Mm. And we're going to hear this . Yes just start any time Will I will I just go ahead and Aye. And is my voice is that will that be Aha. Yeah that's I'll just have a look on that check the label. that's fine. Looking back to nineteen thirty five brings back memories to us older generation of the splendid summers when the herring fishing was booming in Stronsay. No lovelier sight was ever seen than the herring drifters coming in with their catch of herring on a calm sea in the mornings. The the horse-drawn lorries going to the different curing stations where the gutter girls stood at the far end dressed in their oilskin aprons ready to start the day's work. No grumblers there believe me and to walk past them would be to hear them singing while you work. Their gutting knives flashing in time to the music. When I was about ten years old, a trip to the village from the South end was a bigger thrill than a trip to a big city would be to a present day child, later working in the village as a teenager, the dances every Saturday and Monday night was enjoyment never to be forgot. Two of the Fiddler family from Rose cottage provided music with piano and violin. No amplifiers in those days, but the old cinema rang from end to end with everyone in festive mood. There were three ice cream shops and a chip shop doing brisk trade all the time. Most of us oldies remember Mr , going his rounds with his ice cream barrel, proclaiming his wares to be the best in the world and no Summer was complete without him. On Sunday night, a visit to Sister 's rest hut to join in the hymn singing was the highlight of the week. With a small harmonium providing the lead it really was magnificent harmony. Sister will always be remembered for her words, You must be cruel to be kind. This was when she had held a poisoned finger in a bowl of very hot water but she always got good results. At the close of the fishing season, the fishing folks always sang as the boat left the Stronsay pier and to hear the song, We're no away to bide a while, always brings back memories. Stronsay fish mart in the fishing time was really a busy place with the salesmen busy selling the herring to the curing stations. This is only looking back close on fifty years. To look to look back further to the sailing boats, no doubt would be to recall an even busier village. Mhm. It would have been, Yes. The cinema was at the back of the present hotel. it was built first to show pictures, then turned into a dance hall. Musicians in nineteen thirty five was Mrs , North Cliff, the piano, and her brother Karl on violin. M C was late Danny ,. The small water boats ran between Papay and Stronsay ferrying people across. I have seen them leaving Stronsay after a dance and you would still have heard them singing when they reached Papay. Duneva was a Church of Scotland rest hut and there was a English church beside Glenfield. That church blew down in the nineteen thirty two hurricane. That right? Mhm. That's right. There was also a gut factory where the herring guts was made into fish meal. That was in the field as you turn at the Ayre of the Myres. The cement founds are still in Hunton Field. usually through the Summer, we got a visit from the Kirkwall City Pipe Band and they marched up and down the village playing, usually followed by a crowd of Bairns. Twice I can remember the Kirkwall Brass Brand pray playing in the cinema and twice I remember a circus visiting. But that was further back in nineteen twenty seven and twenty eight. I did. Mhm. No wild animals, just ponies, monkeys and dogs, but it was great thrill seeing a girl in green tights and a frilly skirt, standing on a pony's back while it galloped round the ring. I tried that later myself but fell off. Yeah green tights. That was something that stuck in my mind mm . That stuck in your mind I can remember at least six of the Stronsay women gutting the herring at that time and they stood on Moars beach. There were three in a crew, two to gut and one to pack the herring in the barrels. The drifters came in to both piers and on a Saturday night, the village was a busy place. The coal boats lay out where the old barge is now and the drifters went alongside them to get coal. The coal boats were manned by locals and the late J ,, used to work there every Summer. Needless to say there was plenty tricks played on each other and once when the summer was finished, Jimmy couldn't get his trunk to move. Some joker had it nailed to the floor. Usually Hunton and Whitehall supplied the four wheel lorries but lots of farmers from up the highlands supplied carts. Mhm. Big stock boats came from Russia and Germany for the salted Herring and it was a busy time when they were loading. It was dangerous on the roads for bairns as usually the horses with running with the carts. Stronsay hotel was a lovely house with nine bedrooms, a big public bar and a smaller lounge bar. There was a large hole hall at the back with a bar. All this was required on a Saturday night. I have seen the dyke before the village entirely filled up with men sitting there discussing the week's fishing. on a Saturdays afternoon, they all set out and walked up past Sandybank and along to the Mill Road and the back to the village along the sand. They were all dressed in Black knitted jerseys and dark trousers. Mhm. The jerseys were usually done in intricate patterns. The hotel was burnt to the ground in August nineteen thirty nine. And what the other bit of information you got any odd snippets of information you've got written down there. When Mhm just just When you were speaking of the the hulks Nana, there were five hulks there. Mhm. There was David , erm from Stramness, Jimmy from Stramness, Duncan , a cement barge and there a fifth one but I'm not right sure of that. For me my husband John Miller, was on that hulk the whole time. And they had three cargoes of coal in the Summertime, every week. They had three cargoes of coal. Between two and three hundred tonnes every time. Mm. And they start on a Monday and they had it finished by Tuesday and then they start on Wednesday and Thursday and and then they went on Friday and Saturday. And that was the finish. It was most of them was local men but a lot of the Westray men and used to come too and help out. And the Stramness men on 's boat. Was there a lot of people who came to to work here in the fishing town. Yes they came for the other islands. the West coast and that but there were folk Oh yes they came from Holm and the Kirkwall and And then the came from Westray And they came from Westray and Sanday and Edie and all that places to help out. work on the coal boats and just different things like that. They were on on the boats too. And there's the the the last cooper cooper see they'd got coopers. There were six there was eighteen crews on Moars with three in each crew. And the the last copper died two weeks ago. Eric . And he was the last cooper. That Stronsay that was left on that worked on Moars. Eric . And he gave me that information that there were eighteen crews. Just in the one curing station? On that this curing station here . Mhm. So that gives you an idea there was seventeen stations in Stronsay five in Papay. well you see and that was . And then there was all the coopers. How many is that. curing stations. is that the names of the different curing stations. That's the names of them Well Camels was the lower no the bot the one of the bottom of the station was Bert and he married a Stronsay woman. A Was he a Stronsay man? No. He was from er East coast and he married er Isa from . . He married her and they had the one down at the lifeboat slip. And then there was Camels one there. You see that house down there? Yes Well that was that was my house. oh. That white house. That's the only fishing hut that's standing in it's original position. And that was Camel's fishing hut. Camel's house. And it's Glen it was we renamed it to Glenmanor. And it's the only house now well I left it I left it five year ago but it still belongs to my son. . And there was that was Camel's and then there was 's right behind it. 's was right behind Camel's. And then at this side there was erm 's and then there was Bruce's. That's it. 's up here. And then 's in this corner here was 's. 's. And then And that was 's Aye, 's and 's is where the new house . And then they went up to the village and it the first one would been 's, 's and and 's. and 's and 's, Dan 's and 's . Up there. 's was down here and 's was down here. And then They were below here you see. And then Papa . And then Papa . Er 's was the first one and then it was er 's, and 's, and then 's and then 's and then 's. That was the five in Papa . And there was in Papa too. Yes I know. Yes. Well No no it was a Westray man that was in it. It was that was in it when first then Jimmy Jim of Whitehall had it. Well it was that shop . Yes. That shop was taken to Kirkwall and it's now Boondatoon in Old Scapa Road. Mhm. When the first well Aye one night we were speaking about this. How many would there have been, there were between five or six thousand people in Stronsay in the height of the fishing year. Yes that would be right. You see there was eighteen three times eighteen is fifty four. Fifty sixty three times eighteen. Fifteen four women on 's. Maybe there were not that quantity in every one but there would have been twelve or fourteen crews on every station. Then there was all the coopers. There'd have been ten, maybe ten coopers. Then And the coppers were they Stronsay folk that worked up at Some of them and they made them Leslie and Eric and James, Jimmy and Andrew and Jim and Georgie and Jim and them, they worked in the Wintertime you see and made the barrels. And Johnny . Made the barrels in the Wintertime, to have them ready for the Summer. Yes. Tell me about the coopers. told me names of the curing stations can you mind any of the cooperages that were in the village? Well the cooper the cooperage they would have been one at ,co 's cooperage and then there were one at 's. And that's where the men worked and they just made the barrels in there. So there was just the two Mhm. That I can Mhm. remember here well that was certainly true for the Wintertime. Yes. But they must have taken an awful lot of barrels away. Oh yes, the stock boats came just like great stacks see them coming along round . Great huge height of all the barrels built up on them. Stock boats came on the first day, they start coming away in May. Yes. And June. And then the Stevedores, there were a lot of Stevedores here belonging to Stronsay. There was Sammy and Davie and and er from Comely Bank, Willie and Jim they were all Stevedores and Andrew and They were stevedores you see a lot of . They worked at that just unloading on the boats. And then when the herring went away they had to load them again. Yeah. And er you were speaking about the gut factory. In the Wintertime they had a boat they called the Redloch and she went to Stramness and took sillocks from Stramness and took to the gut factory here in the Wintertime. And my my husband John and Peter and J their father John . Well he was old John . And Peter and Sandy and they went back and forth all the Winter with that boat. And took took the sillocks and to the factory to keep the factory going for the factory you see was up in Hunton's field and there were a lot of Stronsay men in it. Working in it. And that was something that went on all year It went on the whole year Yes with the sillocks and things. You could fairly smell it for far enough. Yes. And then the the hotel Nana was mentioning the hotel it's burnt down. Well there was in the summertime well there was a cook and a wait a waitress and a maid. And then there was a a young girl that would wash dishes and do bits of jobs. Yes. That's Nana did you see. She was just twelve when Yes twelve and thirteen. Twelve and thirteen and I was cook for four years there. And then we had shooters that came, and we'd millionaires among them. Really? Yes. And did they shoot Came in came to shoot the ducks on the island. They had their valets with them and they were here they would been maybe I saw them at the time. And my father used to take them out in the boat. Mhm. And around you know, and they would shoot out of the boat and Jock used to take them out Yes. and Johnny in their boat. And er Then there was travellers coming every week. For the they were to begin with in Stronsay. Yes. And there were travellers coming you see every week for that for that . And then that big h hall at the back of the hotel was a showroom for the travellers to show off their all their stuff. What happened in the Wintertime to the shops then when there wasn't so many folk here? Did they Well they just struggle on in the Wintertime Struggled on. there they are, the shops, that was the shops . Oh there was 's shop and they were a baker and grocer. Whereabouts was that? Well that's Hillside now. have have that house now. it's it's a private house now. And there was W P that was right alongside them. he was a grocer shop. And then there was at Bayview and he was a butcher and grocer. And was a grocer. And Maggie , Shamrock was a grocer and haberdashery. And J at Minerva was a butcher was grocer. And T D , shop at the head of the pier there, was he was a butcher, a grocer and a baker. And J was a baker. And Lizzie was a grocer. And in the summer of course as I said before there was three ice cream shops and a chip shop and then up the island there was ,, and that was all up the island. Mhm. So there was a lot of First one I mind was the first was the 's Bakery. Peter . Yes well that was Aye. . baker's there when in nineteen thirty five. Aye changed us all like. Mm January there was what they call the Jo what we always call the Joanna Thor Thorden gale. That was January nineteen thirty seven. The wind blew from the South East for about two weeks and the Joanna Thorden, a Norwegian boat, was lost off Stronsay. That was the worst sea I ever saw. As the high water mark was half up to to what we call the outer bogs at Houseby. And the driftwood was lying away up the field. Also barrels of apples and tobacco and many other useful items that had been part of the boat's cargo were strewn all along the beach. The dyke at Gripness was laid flat by the sea but the smaller boats had been pulled up afore that . Aye. Hadn't they before the . That was just I c Were the men lost off it? Well there were a boat lost yes and there were women in it mind and that and bairns. Yes. Awful Mhm. Mhm. Did the Stro was the Stronsay lifeboat on the go No no no, the Stronsay lifeboat came in er nineteen fifty two was it not, the lifeboat then? I should ken for me man was one of the crew and I was in the Was he? Yes and I was on the committee of the lifeboat. I was secretary for seven year eh. Aye he was one of the first of the crew. Mhm. I think it was nineteen fifty two it came. His father was on the first lifeboat. First lifeboat was here you see in nineteen nine. Yes it was the John Raeburn. And she was taken away then in when the war the first world war began And then And then it didn't start up till then till the second one came the Joseph Jo er The second one was John it was christened. just go to the kitchen While erm Nana's away tell me what you remember about old weddings. You were telling me that you remember them . Well I remember this wedding it was my auntie and she was she was married at Stronsay to a territorial. He was a Sanday man, Jim . And I can just er m remember it you ken it just sticks out in me mind. First of all when you come in the everybody got a drink of whisky. the mem men got whisky, that was the done thing. And where was this at? At Odness. At Odness . I was we were born at Odness you see. I was born at Odness in nineteen twelve. And it was there were two there was what they called the barn, the lofts they called it. There were two lofts and the wedding was in the one and then the home brew and the stuff was kept in the other and the food. And I just can mind standing getting married. And of course they danced on till morning. And they had home brew going the whole time. and hens cooked and cooked and potatoes and well can you mind what she wore. I can tell you what happened. She was going to have her husband was in khaki as a territorial and her and her bridesmaid was going to have khaki frocks to be some of them great velvet frocks. And in that time you see, the steamer didn't come so often. And a drifter would have come out with any soldiers that was coming home on leave and that. Well this frocks never arrived and she just had to put on an ordinary er white blouse you see and a skirt and the frocks arrived the next day and she put them back. She never kept them. She and she was just furious. Was she? Yes. Mm. But I can remember the er a big tub in the floor and everybody sitting and er paring peeling potatoes you know for this. potatoes and then they were boiled in a big boiler. Mhm. Huge old fashioned boiler with a coal fire underneath. And the hens was cooked and all just a royal feed. Then they danced on till morning, I can mind that . That was my auntie and that was the l the woman who gave me that tea set I were telling you about. Aye. And what year was this she got married? Oh I don't mind Maggie In the wart it was in the wartime you see. Well I would nineteen maybe nineteen eighteen be near the finish of the war. yes it'd been about well on for the end of the war she got married. You were born in nineteen twenty. Aye it would been about maybe nineteen seventeen or nineteen eighteen. Mhm. And what when when you say she got married,service take place ? In the b in that barn. The minister married her in the barn. Yes. And was the barn decorated up or anything? Oh yes, just oh well just the ordinary . I cannae mind much about the Cleaned and scrubbed It would have been clean but there would have been no decorating I don't think. No. up a stone stair. it was just home brew you see was . Did they get wedding presents in that time Oh yes they gave wedding presents, a lot of it was money. Five shillings you see, twenty five pence was a big wedding present in that days. Yes. And did they go anything like a wedding walk that you remember? No. Never in Stronsay. No. I never remember a wedding walk in Stronsay. Never. I never remember a wedding walk in Stronsay . No. No. No. No, they did it in Shetland and that but not in Stronsay if ever I can remember. And I'm seventy three now so. And you'd have heard it spoken about Yes I'd have heard it spoken about yes. There weren't many church weddings then you see. You just got married in the barn. Mhm. Mhm. But I always remember they got this snap of whisky, the men got a nip of whisky and the women got a glass of wine when they come in. Mhm. That was the done thing. Mhm. And tell me you were saying about harvest homes . Well they were just just held in the barns too. All held The big farmers had them in the barn. There was a muckle supper A muckle supper they called it. And and the always had maybe sh er sheaves of oats you know but I don't they were decorated and things like that. It was just similar and then they had the little hall then and the farmers women all did it, the big farmers but the women did it. No. Just in And they just had plates of hen and pork and beef and They always had a very very good meal at the here. Very good. potatoes and turnips and just all that yeah, just a big royal feed. When did that change then muckle suppers, when do you remember it changing to being in the Hall while the farmers wife ? When did that change? Well when I was It would have changed when I was well maybe my teens it would have changed I think. Around to that. But it always was in the the barns to begin with. When I mind first . Muckle suppers. who would have been invited to the muckle suppers then everybody wouldn't have been asked . Oh just just well it would just been all the ones from around that district kind of way. See there were different districts and and the Yes the workers you see, and that. So you wouldn't have gone to say er a muckle supper at the No the village ones didn't come so much to the muckle suppers. Just very few the and that . Within the village, them that was been working ion the fishing time, they would have been at what they then on the firms maybe Mhm. so something like that. And they would have been at that muckle supper. And then they would come from North Ronaldsay and that to the different to working the harvest again. It was a yes it was a big farming community. And everybody Oh I can remember there were forty between forty and fifty j what we called servant girls at the at the different in the island. And then there was men too and they had the bothies you see . Good nights in the bothies, dances and sing-songs . When me mo me mother in law, she worked when well she was at Houseby and they were she was in the bothy there. There was, that's where they stay. And I mind her saying that they had nine men once from North Ronaldsay. Mhm. And she baked every thing that they ate. Oatcakes and and and it was porridge or they got at dinner time. And then at tea time they had what their dinner was at tea time you see and it was always fish and . Mhm. At tea time. Or f or soup or whatever Or hen or hen. The main meal was at night. Mhm. And she said she baked everything for that men. Would that've been a full time then or would she have done other Oh that was a she had four or five She wouldn't have been employed then look after the men in the bothy. She was just the the aye, she just fed them . She cooked and fed them. And kept them. Mhm. And there was the beds that was there there was beds were still in that bothy and there was there were three of them must have been in the bed you see, and then there was a a board that they slipped in half up the bed and there was a a mattress or whatever on that and another three on that. There would have been six in a in a bed. Aye. So they wouldn't have been cold. Well it's s it's like the fishing girls here. There were three in each bed. In ea in each bed? Yes. Single beds? Yeah just a just a wooden bit of wood at the front and a a wooden bottom and then they had erm bed what did they call bed-sacks they call them Yes. and they got chaff from the farms you see, they were sent down before the fishing and they filled that and they lay on that. And then dumped it when they went away. And I'll tell you what they what they each curing station used to have what they call foy before they went away. Yeah, yeah. Like what we would call a part, but they called them foys Yes and they used to have dances there.. Was it just kind of like a dance? Just like a dance and they sung and they had just in each station you could hear them in Papa Stronsay we could hear them singing and dancing. Just er we lived down at the bottom of the village there. Tell me you were saying about the tell me what happened at the muckle suppers. What happened in when you came in with the har what was the Well it was just the They had the tables set you see in the hall. Just tables set and you just sat er in the Hall Do you mean in the Hall here? No I mean before the hall Odness . Oh that well it Well it was just like sitting in in the barn and this well it was a laugh. The Mhm. The band was down below and then a loft, a long wooden just like a dance hall up above and they just did that and they just they had tables set and then they removed them for the dances. Yes and they would maybe been one melo one melodeon playing for the whole evening or one fiddle. Mm. And that would fill the whole hall and everybody dancing like mad it was good. And as Nana said, amplifiers and everything. Same here. Till we got bands up and it was just a a fiddle Yes. and a m and a melodeon. Yes, nineteen thirties before they start getting a band. Yes. Yes they just had one maybe one melodeon or one fiddle, but played for the whole dance and you could hear it from end to end of the hall. Then they had dances in the schools in the South school and the Central school and school and d and the North school. There would have been dances in them. Through the Winter. Mhm. was it always the same food there? It was always well there was always hens and beef and mutton and pork and dumplings I suppose be dumplings and Just a Yes Mhm. All that different things Yes just all your plate was just and then turnips and potatoes and dishes of that boiling hot set on the table. Not so much er trifle and that till lately . No. No. Trifle and the cold kind of sweets start later on. But it would been hot stuff you see to begin with. Mhm. And they didn't have just one s black stove in the hall to begin with. Yes. They didn't have any fancy things to cook on. It was all taken up from home you see. Hot ready to put on the table. Oh it was a hard working night for all the women and the dances went on t four o'clock in the morning and a wedding nearly went on all night. It started eight o'clock sharp. And everybody was there at eight o'clock. They weren't coming dragging in twelve ad ten, eleven or twelve like what they are now. They st the dance started eight o'clock. And that was the dancing? Yes, mm. And then they'd a fancy dress at Christmas, at Hogmanay. Yes. Always a fancy dress, it was always and sausages. Generally that night. When was that when was that started? Well that was when we was before fifty five sixty year ago it was you see. Mhm. Mhm. But well I'd have been in my teens then. Mhm. And is was that over in No no it was in the drill hall. They called it the drill hall then it's now the community centre but it's the drill hall. And then the bought the drill hall and turned it into the public hall and presented it to the island. Mhm. Mhm. I was one of the ones that bought for it. Aye it was bought it and presented it to the island. Yes. And it was the public hall supplied cups and everything. Mm. Public hall . And that's No that's it that's the same hall done up. It's been done up you see, it's been altered and it's now the community centre they call it is it not Nana? Aye it's the community centre. Aye. But it was the public hall. It was g gifted to the island by the W I. Mhm. W I started in nineteen twenty four. What was that like when it started? Well it was just something similar to what it is now. Mhm. Yes. Just something similar trip to Kirkwall in the Summertime eh. In June, June trip to Kirkwall on with a boat and What were your meetings like to start with, can you remember the first meetings ? Yes grand me well I She'll mind it because she was one of the first I'm I'm not a founder member. No. I I joined in twe nineteen twenty seven. In nineteen twenty four. But I was a member then and it there were a big crowd in it and we just did. Just grand meeting you know and we had dances and it was good really good. Aye the W I sitting and it's kept going in Stronsay. We were up there last night and she won a prize. Yes you won a prize, special prize last night. It was for the programme, making up a programme, the syllabus for the whole year. Mhm. I've been a member for er fifty eight year, the W I and I'm a member in Kirkwall now . mhm. What did the men think of the W I when it first started meeting. I'll give you a poem to read. She made up a poem for the diamond diamond jubilee. Oh I see. Here. And er . Yeah, she'll read it to you. It's good. Oh they had good nights and there were always a crowd of boys there and they used to come in and pinch the . write it out like that and then my grandson erm Framed framed it for me. Last for last Christmas. Oh sorry. What did the the men think when it started up? Oh the men you see, er the men were invited certain times like for whist drives and that and the dances and they oh they all When the The called it the Silly Women Running Idle, but that was just for fun. Mm. But they were all erm delighted with it I would say. and the whist drives was always Yes they they amalgamated then this parties and that and they had the you see. And then the North end . The club Aye clubs yes, clubs. Mhm and they played darts and whist and all that kinds of things. That's very good. My goodness that's just very good. That was what I I wrote and I well I read that out to them at the at that night. That night Very good. Yes. that was last year. Yes that was the diamond jubilee. Yes. just last year you see cos nineteen twenty four it start and Stronsay was well on the first to have to start the W I. Yeah. Cos Mrs the l what they called the laird it was his wife that was the president first. She she . Aye. Yeah. And that was Stronsay there were about the first to have a diamond jubilee. Yeah. There's some just having it now and some not even still had it you see. Mhm. But you were one of the first to start. I wasn't a founder member. I was in nineteen twenty seven. So I'm about er well the one that's kept it up Mrs Cooper always going too. Yes. Has kept it up all along. And w and been a member for the whole time. And and went to it every time. Still going, there are a lot of members like oh erm Ruby from Mount Pleasant, she's a founder member. Yes. But she doesn't I don't think she goes now. No. But she was I think she was secretary and Cissy Miller of Hunton was treasurer. The one was secretary, the other was treasurer. When it start. And you were telling me the other clubs men men had They had what were they? They had Well they had a club at the South school. And they had one down here And they had one here at the Y what they call the Y M. at a hut down here. Y M C A . Well they did er they'd dance and whist and did different things like that. Just did games . And they had competitions then and they had competitions with the South End you see. North End against the South End. Same as they had the football teams. They had the South End football and football team and the North end football team and the football team. I never remember the football team. to the matches like but I remember the North End and the South End. Willie would mind the . Yes he would mind it he would been he was in it. Aye. And then they went to the different islands and I remember this for when we were at the hotel me brother and me went across, well me was on it too we were all young then. And we went across in small boats to Sanday and what a night. What a bad night. It was just really terrible I mean the first I was just scared stiff that I never couldn't enjoy the dance on Sanday I was that scared of the thought coming back . It was terrible, about twenty of us in that boat. you know it was small boats. Did you do that a lot then, back and forth ? Yes and and then when the lifeboat came, the Eday and and Sanday and them a lot of them came across for the dances, the lifeboat dances, it was really I would say the best time Yes. you know, for the people amalgamated. We had grand times. Beauti lovely dances. Robbie and then they had a boat and they went across. Jim told me they went he went and fore sixteen times one night. putting folk there and come back, and putting them and coming back and he then he did, that was four loads he would have had you see and then had to take them all back home again. It was it was good gr grand times I would say. There wouldn't have been many on the island then was there? No. No. No. No. Well if you start thinking,everyone that's in the island's nearly . For my father came from Westray well he was an incomer from Westray. When I say incomers I mean folk Yes No No. I mean, I know . Mhm. Well mother belong to Stronsay. Yes. Father came from Westray. Did she tell you anything about what life was like when she was young? Yes she used to tell us and my me gran used to tell us and She used to tell us about the you see they weren't allowed to make er malt and that. You know bre for brewing. They brewed ale you see. Ale ale was one of the things that they ate they they drank they put ale on their porridge. Yes. Because they would have likely made their butter unsalted butter. Yes. And they put ale like home-brew ale on their porridge. My gran used to always used to do that . And she used to tell us like and and things like that. And she said about the she said about this er when they made this malt. There were a man that used to come and they called him the gauger well we would likely call him the customs officer now. Yes. The excise man. Mhm. And he used to come and they could see him coming for he had to come in a cart. And they used to dig a hole and bury it. And she used to tell me about her burying it with her father you see, the sacks of malt so that he didn't find it. Oh yes. And was it a Stronsay man that was the gauger or No no he came from he would have come from Kirkwall. Mm. Mhm. And then you see there were no telephones and things then. No telephones, nothing like that. Just telegrams to begin mainly. And when the Orcadian came to Stronsay, the paper, the a man used to read he used to get the Orcadian and read the news on the pier. They tell me that yes. Oh yes. Mhm. Mhm. Everybody didn't have Orcadian like what they have now. Mhm. Tape number one Hugh final year student School of Scottish Studies. Taping Hugh my father on shipyard riveting practices. Fifteenth of November nineteen ninety. Is that picking up? Aye. It's picking up. But he says it's got this wee arrow here's got to be in the middle of this dial, you know. So er well If you want to tell me, if I was starting as a riveter boy, right, if I was wanting to start as a riveter boy, what would I do? Would I go to the yard or would somebody speak for me? Well on a lot of occasions people were spoken for. Aye. Er by their fathers and uncles and brothers that Right. who had already served their time er Mm. in a yard. Er as far as I can remember er you would start as an apprentice riveter, and you would do sort of odd jobs within a s a squad, rivet Mm. squad. Er maybe heating rivets or putting in rivets, until such times as er you were deemed fit to become a member in apprentice squad. And again apprentice squads done er lesser jobs than the the journeymen such as er riveting casings, etcetera, that were not on watertight and er filling in the odd er seams here and there that er were left out while a riveter was progressing with his job. And erm that would carry on until such times as when the foreman or whoever would deem them fit to be a squad that could carry out er a heavier job if you want put it that way, where they would progress on to heavier plates etcetera, and do watertight work. But would a a erm apprentice squad Was it known, or was it common, or was it known at all, for an apprentice squad to start off as apprentices like you start off in maybe four or five years become apprentice squad and work as a squad and do light jobs that you're talking about, would Mhm. it be known then for that squad just to go right through the gambit and become a fully fledged riveter's squad and work for their days as a squad? Or would they inevitably break up and go to work with the experienced squads? Well it would be I suppose it would be possible that that they could start their time together and work right through for years together, but invariably er that didn't happen because people were picked up and laid off as the boat progressed,er and if er Y you may get a a run for the one yard would need, say, six squads of of riveters, in a hurry. And you might get a a man that was er idle say for two or three month and the foreman would pick him up and say well, you know, can you put a squad together for tomorrow morning? Mm. And he would then go round picking up his mates and say er you know I need a holder-on, I need a rivet boy, etcetera until such time as he got a squad together, and that squad would start in the morning as a squad. Mm. But it didn't necessarily mean that they would stay together all the time the they may they may even fall out with one another. Er and one of them may decide that he was going to another job anyway, you know, and he would leave and somebody else would be brought in and what have you. So it didn't necessarily mean that you get a squad of riveters that would stayed together all the time, erm for various reasons, as I say they may have been , unfortunately some of them might even die and therefore you had to make up the squad again Mm. So in that sense er very unlikely you would get a an apprentice squad that served their time together and went right on through to retirement age or whatever. Mm. Er invariably you would find up they broke up somewhere or other. And would an an apprentice, like somebody who'd say served say five years as their time, once their time was out would it be common for them to be kept on? I don't suppose it would be thinking about it now, because they would probably have to join the queue like everybody else, would that be right? Once their time was out they lost their indenture or their indenture Mhm. would be completed so therefore became one of the market type of thing. Well unfortunately er it was the practice of shipyards for a long number of years, er to have maybe two or three squads of riveters that were kept in a yard on a sort of permanent basis, but you would invariably find that most of the squads would be sacked when the boat was launched, and taken back on again as they were needed. So again an er because of that squads were never, or very seldom, er kept together throughout their their whole working life you know And they were laid off I mean squads were laid off even before the boat was anywhere near finished. They were Oh aye aye aye. just laid off when There was keel squads and That's right . sail squads and superstructure There were squads and there were there were riveters deemed to be shell men, or riveters deemed to be er superstructure as you say, where they worked on cases etcetera. Ah most squads were on piece work but you might find that you had If it wasn't an apprentice squad, you might find that you had a squad of riveters who weren't on piece work, who simply went round doing any wee odds and ends that had Mm. been missed out here and there or Aye. whatever, Mhm. within the radius of er what would you say? A double bottom, say for instance, you you might get rivets that were missed out. An inspector would go in to inspect the the tank before it was tested and he would back come out and say, you know, there's so many rivets missing in there. Well there'd be a squad of riveters would go in and put them in before a tank was tested. So you invariably find that they weren't on piece work. They were on a make up system sort of thing where they had a wage but it wasn't the wage that the the piece work squad would have. Did they di do you think they I was going to say enjoy there but I do I don't think that'd be the right word, but d did they like or did they prefer to work piece work or was it something that they loathed or I mean there was more money to be made at it wasn't there ? Aha. But I mean it was a hell of a way to work at the same time. Well it was a system that er wasn't liked but it was operated because, in my opinion anyway, because the employers er had seen it as a way of getting more work out of you. Obviously er if er you came in in the morning and you weren't feeling to good, for whatever reason, then you couldn't slack back and say och well I'll just take my time with this. You were on piece work you got paid by the rivet sort of thing, so you had to go ahead with it. And therefore it was a system the the employer encouraged but of course er I don't think you could say that there were many people who were happy with the system. Did they see it as working themselves out a job occasionally? Oh aye aye er there was always that in the back of their mind that the the more rivets they put in per day, although it meant more money at the end of the week possibly, er it also meant that the the boat was therefore progressing or the ship was progressing that quick, that they were getting nearer the gate as the the saying went. Er and they were actually bringing on there own unemployment. So what would a a riveter have done then once they were once their job was completed they were put on the the on the street basically? Was it easier for them was it easy for them to pick up work or would they have been woul would they have to face a long time on the dole or? Well I would say that erm, in my time, er when they became unemployed, most of them could pick up a job pretty easy because I was speaking about from nineteen forty eight onwards, and of course er it was shortly after a war, there was plenty of work, and therefore most of them could pick up a job in a reasonable space of time and they wouldn't be idle too long. But I daresay, if you were speaking to some of the older men in the shipyard er who had worked in a shipyard before my time, that er a lot of riveters, a lot of tradesmen of all all kinds, found it hard to get employment once they were they were sacked you know. In fact er on many occasions they would have to move out of town to get a job. Yet they had this sort of erm this sort of feeling about them that they created themselves, that they were sort of cock of the rock, within a shipyard. Was that Mm. based purely on the money aspect or something else? Well it it it was based er basically on the fact that they could earn more money than than most tradesmen in the yard at that particular time er I would say that. They worked hard for any money they got er but basically this was the idea that they could earn more money than say a joiner or a plumber or whatever, and therefore they had a wee bit of pride in themselves . So did did they think they were doing themselves a disservice then when they, maybe when they amalgamated, or when they became part of the boilermakers, or when the boilermakers started taking in various trades to to approach the employers as a as a a black squad unit for wage rises and conditions and so on, or did they they Would they have preferred to have done it themselves do you think? As riveters? Well again going back to when I started my time etcetera. Most people negotiated their own wage. Er it wasn't like er you know the employer would meet you and discuss a wage rise for a whole yard. Most people done their own negotiating. The riveters done theirs, the the joiner done his, the plumber done his what have you. Er and that was the system and of course the thing was that with the riveters being on piece work,apart from negotiating a wage, you were negotiating what was known as a price list, and er whereas you would get X amounts of shillings or pounds for so many hundred rivets, or whatever it was, then the argument would be that that price should be upped because of the the cost of living going up, or whatever you know. So how did the work out because as far as I know the the riveter got the cash and then he divvied up the money between Mm. the squad. Well that practice did go on for a long number of years where the the riveter was the was the boss of the squad and on the Friday night, when er where it came knocking off time, he would collect the wages and he would divide that up between the squad which would be, a holder-on, a rivet boy, er maybe a putter-in, er again in my time, that was mostly a squad. Other at other times you would have er hand riveters where you had maybe two riveters and a holder-on, and er a heater as they called, a rivet boy. And again the riveter would be the th the charge of the squad, sort of thing, and he would divvie up the wages at the weekend. So how did they decide who got what? Well I couldn't just tell you honestly about that but I think the riveters decided who got what, you know. Mm. Er I never actually had any part in it but I heard tales about er the rivet boy in particular,the they would er they would give him a wage equivalent to what they thought was was a was a reasonable wage for him, because of the fact that they were on piece work, he had to see that the rivets there on time. Er in the morning he would be in before any of them, sort of thing, getting a fire lit getting the rivets heat up before they come on the job and ah the the quicker he could the the rivets heat up and passed on to the the squad, then okay the more they could put in so, if he were a good rivet boy you could maybe get a good wage, but again that was up to the squad up to the riveter. So your wages could fluctuate week in week out with not really Oh aye. having a great deal of Aha. er balance in t in terms of the amount Mhm. of the work that you done. It might just be a good week or a bad week. And maybe, dare I say it? Maybe if you were a clever rivet boy you you could get more wages . Aye aye aye. And the fact that it was divvied up in the pubs I Mm. dare say quite a lot of it must have been spent in pubs as well. Well, aye. Er they say that's where most of it went on er they would go into the pub and the riveter would tally up the the sheet for the week and say well okay, that's, you know, the holder-on gets so much and the rivet boy gets so much, and the riveter got so much, and what have you. Erm I don't know if if I'm right in saying, but I think they may have given a tip to to other people like er the chore boy, there used to be a chore boy. His job was to go back and forth to the store, from the store to the job, etcetera er up to the bin fill the bag up with chore take the bag up to the rivet boy and er the the chore was used of course was used to heat the rivets. And was this a would this be a man that would do this or would this just be a boy? On most occasions it would be a boy but I have seen men doing it. Mm and did they employ like boys from school? Or or was it did you have to be out of school? Oh no you Well again er as I say I I'm speaking in in my own time, er and in my time you were left school before you started in the yard at all, aye. Mm mm. What sort of tools Did they have tools as such? You know the way a carpenter took various, you know, trade in his tools. I dare say a Mhm. carpenter's tools are more sophisticated but they had Aye aye. tools of a sort. Well y most squads had their tools, aye. They they had er they had hamme They had Again y Even in my day you had some hand squads, as they were called, who would have their own er rivet hammers you know, and hand hammers. Well obviously they would look after them and keep them in good order, and what have you, so that there was no hold up with them trying to make a wage or whatever. Er and when it progressed to automatic tools, all these tools were kept in a store at night, and you collected them in the morning when you went back onto the job. Obviously most of them had them marked or had their name on them, so that they would have the same er the same set of tools every day. Now whether it made a lot of difference or no, I couldn't tell you, but they believed it er the set of tools they had were the best in the yard, you know, so obviously they took a wee bit of pride in them and looked after them. And do you think that the move from the hand riveting to the pneumatic tools, do you think that made the job any easier? Well I would say Not being a riveter I would think it it did make the job a bit easier for them. Erm but there again, riveting was never easy, so it it maybe took a wee bit of the the hard work out it. But erm I mean th they looked From the pictures they look fairly heavy like and I've never handled a a riveting machine but I've Mhm. handled the caulking machines, and they can be If if you're working with them for a length of time, they can get fairly heavy and laborious you know . Oh aye aye aye. Ah well er riveting machines were a a pretty heavy item to be Mm. worked with, aye, and carry about with you. Mm. Er but er they devised various ways on their own to to help them with these things, you know, they er I don't know exactly what it was called but you you would see a Maybe a riveter in below the in below the boat er doing the shell, in below the boat, and he would have a Like a hammer, a a an arm that was rigged up for him er to give him an assistance with the the machine, to hold the machine up to You know to let him work with the machine. So they devised a lot of things themselves to to give them a a a helping hand. And what sort of conditions were you working in at that time in the shipyards? Were they, you know in, general you know not just talking about riveters, but in general for the the work the workforce? I mean in terms of hours of work and tea breaks and whatever it is you had, you know. Time for the toilet and Well again er I would say conditions were were terrible as far as I was concerned, er a as far as tea breaks and what have you were concerned, you didn't have any what we would call official tea breaks, you simply took your chances and made a cup of tea and hid behind a bulkhead or whatever to to drink this, er if you got caught by the foreman or the manager or somebody, then you were more or less bagged on the spot. Er so there was no official tea break. As far as toilets were concerned er the the toilets to me were absolutely diabolical, that nobody should have been asked to use them. But there again er it was the time we lived in and you had certain Well yards had their own way of trying to keep track of when a guy was in a toilet etcetera and sometimes you would have to hand in y your er your time ticket, to the toilet attendant, and you would give him this ticket and he would say right you are,you know, and mark down your number on a book and say to you, well you've got seven minutes or something you know. So you had to be sharp. But in general conditions were pretty bad? They were. Aye aye. They were. There was no doubt about that. What kind of hours were you working? I mean you started in forty eight Er you're working forty forty five hours aye a forty five hour week. And did youse get any sort of erm protective clothing or anything that we got when I started in the yards? Oh no did you no no. Er all the clothing you had was provided by yourself, boiler suits, boots er there there was no protective clothing at all, there were no protection for your hearing, er there was no what we called leathers as such for er to save you from getting burned with scales off of the rivets, with burning machines etcetera, there weren't there was absolutely no er protective clothing at all , unless you happened to be able to buy it yourself somewhere. And would that be common? Would riveters buy protective clothing for themselves? Well they would buy Were a a breed of men, as far as I know, used to wear what they called moleskin trousers. They were er anybody that knows about moleskin, and there very heavy material er and apart from being hard-wearing, I suppose they, in the winter time, they gave them a wee bit of warmth in their legs etcetera. Er and most riveters would try and buy moleskin trousers. But again th there was no there was no clothes to be bought in the yard or issued in the yard or anything like that you simply bought them in the shops outside. Mm. Er and bought you could afford. Mm. So the the conditions were really very bad. Mm mm. Well I think we're running out of tape Mhm. so we'll need to finish there but thank you very much Hugh. You're welcome. That's good. Right if we could start again then. How many how many can you remember off hand, riveters that worked as as family riveters? Er the brothers the brothers and the as you as you said there, and the . Then there there was the the ,big Malcky and his father big Wall Wally ,Many more wait I see Big Cassie mentioned a couple at me and I can't remember. Mhm. What their names are. the there were the brothers too, Wee Woody and Abel and Jamesie . They all worked about the one squad you know. And where would the All that the families you mentioned there were they all port families? They were all port Aye. They were all families aye . Aye. And was it common for riveting squads to accumulate out of families? They were mostly made up of their families. Most of the er riveting squads were friends or cousins or all They were all Aye. kind of near related most Aye. of the riveting squads. So a boy coming up through a family that was involved in riveters would sort of more or less Aye. know that he was going to go into riveting squad? He would, aye. He would he would go in as a boy, but a rivet boy a heater as we called them. Would that not cause any animosity families working together? No I don't think it No. I was thinking maybe when the money was getting split up you know? No well it had to be a fair share out. Aye. With a riveter Two riveters and a holder-on, and then the boy got so much to the pound. Aye cos if it was like family you could lay it on to family easier than you could lay it on to somebody No. If it wasn't your family you would need to come up come up with the dosh . The dosh split out right no. Mm. Every everybody got a fair share. Mm. After after the boy The boy was paid so much to the pound then the rest was divided three ways by the two riveters and the the holder-on. Big Cassie was telling me a story about a couple of riveters that worked together, a family, brothers or cousins or something, and er she says that the guy was a riveter, he used to Maybe if the guy was on the inside holding, on the riveter on the outside this I'm sure she said they were brothers, he would shout one of them from outside you know, shout his name and the boy would look through the hole you know, and he's he would spit on him he would spit through the hole . see you had to go out and look through the rivet hole to see who was shouting in you know. There was another famous one, and all, about the and his fingers ? Mm. Aye. And the thing about Fingers was always black now with holding on to the thingummy and then putting in drifts, and hammering, your fingers was get er drift was always on a in a a pan a wee pan with oil in it, drift was always full of oil and you stuck it in the hole. Walloped it in. So sometimes I wallop it in, sometime the the other one would stick his finger through the hole, and the riveter would be dying to be hitting it back he thought it was a drift you know . Break your fingers. Mhm. See the likes of old Cassie talking there about the the She was saying that pe people survived of of that. Who all got a Co book? Anybody that had money had a book Co book . People that could afford to but somebody in the family had a Co book. So every family had a Co book? No. No. Some of them couldn't afford it. Some of them couldn't afford i You had I think you had to put something in . I think you had to kind of build up You mu You had to have so much in the Co shares to get a Co book. Before you could er A black book you could get a Co book Mhm. what they called a pink book, you'd a pink Mhm. booklet. Mhm. That they marked up your bought a load of messages, so many Aye. two or three pounds worth of messages. And you got a wee cheque. This was written in this pink book, it was full of wee cheques. And that two pound odd was writ into the This book. And that was put in for your dividend. You accumulated dividend and if your dividend had accumulated to so much you would maybe be allowed a black book. You know, they called this a black book. And you could use that for your own family. You could lay You didn't have to pay that black book every week. You could leave that to the end of the quarter You paid it every quarter. and pay it. And what sort of stuff did you get off the black book that you couldn't get the other way? Well you could go into the drapery Well department. You could go to the drapery, the hardware, the grocery, anywhere Gents clothing or anything like that. Get everything practically that you needed from a black book . with a black book. But you had to have it paid every quarter. Soon as it came to the end of the quarter You know and if it didn't be paid you at the quarter it meant you di you wouldn't get anything the following quarter. And how long did you get at the end of the quarter to pay this? A couple of days. It was usually up on a Tuesday wasn't it? If the Co was up on the Tuesday you had to have it paid for the Saturday, at least. On the Monday. A Mond A Monday or a Sa Aye well the Saturday. You know? It had to be paid before the Tuesday Mm. because that's when they tallied up. All the books was er audited. Mm. On the Tuesday the day that the Co was up. And after that your If you If you paid it The Co was up on the Tuesday, you had to have it paid Most people tried to pay it for the Thursday and that was the turn of the leaf, on the Thursday and if you paid that then you could go straight away that day and get your new quarter stuff, for the next quarter. You got until the Saturday to pay it, but if you paid it then that let you get the turn of the leaf and get more stuff for the next quarter. And most people were desperate to get stuff in them days, you know they didn't want to wait till the following week so they tried to get it paid as best they could Before the the end of the quarter . So that they could get it for the turn of the new leaf of the quarter. That new leaf didn't going into the next quarter and So the turn of the leaf didn't go into the next quarter. Although you were still in the same quarter. Mm mm. No. But it wasn't everybody that could pay it, it was very hard for some people. If you let somebody else get stuff on your book, and some of them couldn't pay it, you know, you've no means of paying it . You might pay it yourself. Sometimes the people that owned the book had to pay it for them you know. And wait to such times as they could pay it back, Mhm. you know. That was why you mostly kept your black book for your own family. Aye you didn't hand your book in you couldn't hand your book out to anyone, you know . You didn't want to hand it, but there was people in the port that handed their book out to everybody because that way they got a lot of shares. They got a lot of dividend . and accum accumulated all this dividend, and they would have a right good black book you know. Because a lot of money was going through there Aye. Aye. they would get a good dividend of it . They got the good dividend . Mhm. They got so much to the pound. So they would get When would that be paid out? It was paid out Every quarter . Every well just shortly after the the the end of the quarter maybe the following week. That the They would tell you what dividend they were paying out Mhm. that for that quarter so the I rem following week you could go up to collect your dividend. Mhm. So er I remember it half a crown to the pound, but it was more before I remember that I =mem I remember three and three and sixpence to the pound Aha. I think that was the biggest. Three and sixpence to the pound. So anybody that had a big book accumulated all this dividend Maybe three or four hundred pounds worth of stuff out . But they had to take on the worry of people that couldn't pay them. And was it common? Very common everybody in Port Glasgow Mhm. used it. And Everybody we knew used the Cooperative. Everything was bought, you bought everything. Th th In them days you hadn't got er what is commonly known now as hire purchase, nowadays, you know, that that mostly started after the war. That would've been the only way of Maybe not the only way, but the the easiest way for people to er get debt, if you want to call it that, was er to use this Co book. And of course erm for some people it became a way of living,and just For most people it was a way of living. you you mounted up a certain amount of debt, you tried to get it paid by the end of the quarter. If you were lucky enough to be able to pay it then you had the dividend that came along with that. Aye that was the people that owned the book . Er But it took people busy to get it paid, you know, and in fact there was some people that couldn't, er and it became a big worry to people . Mm and what would happen if it came to the end of the quarter and you had so much money accumulated to pay on your Co book, for stuff that you'd got over the quarter, and you just couldn't pay it? What would've happened? Or what did happen? Well the person that owned the book They would take it off your dividend. what have to pay that they would probably have dividend and they would pay that for you and you would have to pay them back. Aye. But what if the person I'm talking about I'm not talking about If you owned the book. the person who owned the book. Mhm. If the person who owned the book, regardless of who got stuff of the book Mhm. beyond that, if they had bought stuff through the Co and accumulated a debt on that book Aha. and couldn't clear it at the end of the quarter? Well they took it off your dividend. If if if it was like If you didn't have dividend enough to clear that you would lose your book. You just So you just you'd lost your book. So the debt would go then? You would? Oh no you would still have to pay that. You're liable . No no i if it was if it was the likes of a say for instance, and I owned the book, it was my black book, and I ran up a hundred pounds on it. Er and at the end of the quarter I couldn't pay that, then obviously you got no dividend on it because you still owed them that hundred pounds, but they would take the book away so you couldn't get any more. Now that was a big fright to people in them times because if you didn't live within You were desperate more. No, most people used it to get their er their er their weekly ration in But you were living on credit that was like credit to you. Mm. This book. You had no money on the Monday morning so you would be in with the book and bought your messages. You see you got you got You'd no money you just mark it up in the book. Mm. You got your messages week to week, it worked from Thursday to Thursday, right? And you got a Your week's messages every week. But the first week of the quarter you could get messages all that week which you didn't have to pay till the end of the quarter. Every other week after that you paid them at the end every week , Mhm. but that first weeks messages you didn't have to pay them till the end of the quarter, which meant that people went in and bought things that week, they never bought you know? Mm. Like f er dried fruit, chocolate biscuits, Aha. good polish and things that they couldn't really afford. That was a great week because they felt they were getting it for nothing, till it come to the end of the quarter and then they had to pay it. And So to get this You had to pay this, because when it came to the end of the quarter, you had to get your shopping out of that Cooperative, so that had to be paid. Otherwise you wouldn't get any more Co er Cooperative messages, so you had to pay that. Wh what was it common, I mean you were talking there about people would buy things that they never bought before? Aha. But was it common for everybody to do that? Most people did that it was like er A wee luxury. A wee luxury a week a of luxury you know. You you di you wouldn't maybe go over the score, but you bought things that What sort of things would you have bought? Well I would have bought maybe dried fruit and er extra coal token, you know you bought your coal tokens and your milk tokens, maybe bought an extra coal token and erm maybe went and get a dozen cakes or something like that . What was the idea what was the idea of coal tokens and milk tokens, why didn't you just buy Why didn't you just pay for the coal and the milk ? It was easier for the man that came round with the Cooperative lorry to just take tokens So you and you didn't have to deal with money. Right. You see? The the coal man didn't have to deal with money because I think some of them was dipping into their bags you know. Well I don't know about that. So that's how they they made their coal cheques. Well anyway it was coal tokens Coal tokens. I always remember. It was just easier for the the men that carried the coal. Aye and of course the likes of milk tokens it Just like now, you know, they would come round the door and leave your milk there in the morning. Aye. Well at that time you didn't leave out money so you just left a couple of tokens tokens And you weren't up. in the the milk bottle , Aye. you know and They came round that early that that was that. the coal tokens was The milk tokens were all right. Aye and of course the same with the the the coal . At that time you could you could trust people. If er if you were going out and you knew the coal man might be round that day so you just left a couple of coal tokens out at the door or whatever. And even left them with a neighbour if they were If your neighbour was going to be in. And as your granddad says, there there was a lot more trust in them days and you could leave things like that at the door, unfortunately you can't do it now. Was it common then for Did youse have a Did you your family have a Co book? Your mother and father? Aye they did although it takes me a bit of time to think about it but erm they did have a a er a black book, aye. But like that A lot of families had them and kept them just for the family. Mhm. You know, there was a lot of people had them and gave them out to neighbours or not total strangers, but people that weren't really related to them. Er and they were the kind of people that sometimes found theirself in difficulties, at the end of this quarter, as it's called, because Well it wasn't everybody that could pay it. Er people done it thinking that Och well, I've got three month to get this sorted out, you know, and then unfortunately, by the time the three months was up, they hadn't got it and Mm. it was kind of hard for them to pay it and that's were it came in that the people who actually had the black book would lose out on their dividend because their dividend would be used to pay what was owed by other people. See most people had good intentions, whenever they got a whole lot of stuff from the Cooperative, they would say I'll lay so much by every week and I'll have it at the end of the quarter. But er they would maybe lay it by for two or three weeks and then forget for two or three weeks, and then when it came to the end of the quarter they were a whole lot of weeks behind, you know, they couldn't pay it then. It was It seems a kind of I mean it seems to have gone on quite a bit that people who had a Co book would allow other people to draw off of that, would go to the shops and buy whatever they needed of the Co book. But at Mhm. the same time it seems an awful kind of dangerous way to Mhm. to run your book, doesn't it? You know, if if you didn't think you were Well you see you were trusting people . Good possibility of not getting it back you know. Aye right . You were trusting people to pay it if you had a black book . You didn't actually let them run up a big bill, you would you would go with them. Aye. And maybe somebody would come to your door and say their wee boy or their girl was making their first communion, and they were in dire straights and couldn't buy anything for them, and you would more or less have to give them your book to help them out, but you would go with them so that they didn't go over the score and get just exactly what that wain needed, you know, and just hope that they had enough money to pay you at the end of the quarter, you know. Would Was there people who would abuse Oh Aye you had to Some people would have went mad with getting them just the same as you know ? Aye. You had to watch but if people came to your door in a in a state that er you knew it was a genuine case, you would probably help them out you know. And did you have to did you have to actually When you went to the shop, say to buy some messages, or to buy whatever erm in the drapery or whatever , Mm. did you have to actually present the book, when you went Oh Aye aye aye. Could you just No you couldn't get could you just anything without that book . Without the book. Oh no no, I mean there was people went and quoted the number. Oh no they didn't allow that you had to have the book. Ah but they quoted my number mine . Aye well that was a one off, you you weren't really supposed to go without a book. Mm. Then what was what was it happened to you then? Somebody went in and quoted my number, and was it a suit they got? I don't know how that happened, really but, erm you weren't really supposed to get anything without . They're supposed to It's supposed to be written written down in the in the book. Mm. Everything that you got out the Cooperative was writ down in this book Mhm. in this black book. I think it always was Mostly always was you know. Mm. That must have been a one off. I never heard of that before really. You had to have your book. And did some people use it like er almost like in a like a money lending scheme then? Aye. You know. Mhm. Mhm. They would allow people that they thought they could trust to accumulate a lot of debt on it . Aye. Some people had maybe as many as thirty forty people on their book Aye. Mhm. But you had to take all that worry that But there was somebody wasn't going to pay you you know. There was people that actually made money from it, oh they made money. You know if if you had twenty people using your book. Then at the end of the quarter you were getting dividend for twenty people. Now if if you were getting say, in them days maybe two pound a person,well you were talking about er get quite a wee bit of money every quarter. And therefore that money would mount up. Now maybe the person that ran the book didn't really need to use all that, so at at the end of a a year, say for instance, they'd quite a bit of money lying on that that black book . Ah if if your getting three and tanner per pound for every pound that was taken out on your book, say four hundred pound, three and tanner to the pound. Quite a bit of money, then it was a lot of money. Mm mm. So i if It was up to yourself. You could take the risk and say well okay I'll try it. So how big was a how big a institution or how important a institution was the Cooperative then, here? Well everybody in this town It was the main thing in this town . bought out the Cooperative, that's for sure aye . Everybody bought more or less everything they needed . Mm. Everything. After the turn of the leaf the next day when the the the new quarter began, every shop was queued from eight 'o clock in the morning. And when you got into that shop there's maybe a counter for drapery and a counter for gents, a counter for ladies, millinery, every different kind of thing. Every counter was queued out the door. Aye. Waiting Mhm. for things at the the beginning of the quarter. That's how important it was in the port. Mhm. See there wee no big shops in this town at that time. You hadn't Woolworths or any of these big shops No. Cooperative was the shop in the town. That was the main shop. You would maybe How did the smaller shops survive then? The likes of shops that sold groceries . Ah well that that was only wee corner shops you know . It was just wee shops, apart from that. Maybe Coopers and the Maypole. Aye. Aye. Coopers and the Maypole aye . And the Buttercup that was the other three shops. What was the Buttercup? Mac McSimon McSimons and er John . It's er just another wee store like er the Maypole and Coopers. And was that . Just small grocer, nice wee shops. Now they they were We probably thought, at that time, that they were er big shops, you know? Mhm. Er because they were bigger than say Murrays. Erm They weren't much bigger than The next the next biggest shop to the was another the Cooperative was McSimons and John . No, I don't remember them. Mm. where is now. Aye. That was a great big shop, McSimons. And did they do any Did they do a trade comparable to the Cooperative? No no. No because nobody el else give out tick. See you get . You know , it had to be ready cash for all these shops, the probably did their bit when people had money, you know if you had a wee bit extra money. But mostly it was the Cooperative. And everybody in the town was in the Cooperative, you know. Everybody went to the Cooperative Guild, all the women went to the Co Cooperative Guild. What was the Cooperative Guild? Well it was just a a guild for women who could take their knitting and have a cup of tea and discuss everything that went on in the Cooperative, you know. You said what was going to happen next quarter somebody who's Well er maybe on the committee, you know, two or three on the committee. And you took to do with the things that was happening in the Cooperative. Said your piece and if you thought things weren't right. So the the Cooperative was basically run for the people . Aye it was run by the people Oh aye aye up, aye. and it had things on for children like elocution classes and Aye? Aye. Highland dancing and stuff like that. Aye. You went to the Cooperative halls for everything, like that when we were young. Where would these guild meetings be held then? Well maybe once a week on a Tuesday night, think it was a Tuesday night. My mother used to go to it. Aye. And you would have a a Co board as they called it Some of these women would be on it . which was made up of local towns people, you know, and and er I mean you didn't have to be a a notary in the town to be on this er Co board th th You know you could be one of the riveters you were talking about earlier . Old old Andy too an interest in it Old Andy was in Neil Neil father he was on that board. Mm. And his sister, Andy 's wife . Shashin, you better shout too much, that's no good I have to You don't have to Why? You can listen. If you talk nice and polite people listen to you. If you shout this is no good is it? Yes it is No Why? Because people ignore you more This is fun It's not funny No it's not funny Yes it is It's not very nice. It's very rude I know but I like to people are naughty If people are naughty then you shout but if people are not naughty then you don't shout, you talk politely. Do you understand? No You don't understand? Why don't you understand? I don't now What is your problem? I like to shout He's got no brain up here I got a brain and I got a cold You're not taking your tea properly go in yellowy like mine Black you mean Yeah Do you have to have braces then . Do you think you'll need braces then? He's alright, he's perfect I don't wanna wear them stupid braces Why? Just don't wannu, it makes me look funny Well I was gonna wear braces at one time I wanna wear the w I wanna wear the ones that Just a plain wire across your teeth? Everyone takes them out and then shows you. They've got all spit on them and they've got food stuck in and everyone takes them out and they go, oh look this is my brace It's disgusting Yeah but if I had to eat I'd take them out, then I'd put them back on You can eat with them but then you have to they go all dirty Then you have to clean them I don't want to clean them Yes, you're lazy I know . If I wore those track braces I would've had I wouldn't have been able to clean my teeth properly Can I just say something? No. Daddy, talk An animal or a living thing or person or whatever. I'd then put down the typical weight, a typical height, the main use, the usual colour tell me some key to press please? B B, thank you very much. I'll press B. And it's come up straight away with record number two which is all about spaniels and obviously I can keep on going. Something that is interesting, erm, if I keep on going and you listen, record three, not very exciting, listen to the disk drive, four, five, ok six,disk drive , ok? This computer is a pretty pathetic one basically and it can't hold very much information programme and so once it's had five records fed into it's memory it's full up which is pretty pathetic given the size of each record. But it's rec it's got those in and once it's got those five in, it then has to you get five on. So each time you want to do something it's five, displays it and so on tell it to read five but it just fills up it's memory, it's little buffer with that much. You go on through and si sorry seven is a pointer, eight is a Jack Russell which apparently is rather snappy and used for rabbiting, so I'm told, nine is Dalmatian , number ten's a labrador, golden coloured, guide dog main use and so on and then oh dear, it's finished, the programme's stopped. So I've just got ten records on this file and I say those words carefully because you've gotta distinguish between record, file and field. Ok, using that as an example,labrador, can someone please tell me what I mean by file, field and record? Ok, file is the whole collection I don't understand that All of that is one record. Ok. Each each record is a complete information about one item on the file. Ok? So we're left with fields. What does field mean? Yes? It's part of the record, good Ok, good. It's , the field is the part of each record E G shall we say, main use. Every single dog, when the record comes up, has got a field headed main use and then says something like guide dog, guard dog, rabbiting or whatever it is. Ok? So that is the way in which files are structured. We have a file er on each of you. I've got one here right in front of me. This is my file and if I look up er, in a way this is a collection of files, isn't it? but one file I've got is called ten C S, computer studies, and each record is headed with your name and as well as your name I keep a record of your form or tutor group. I keep a record of the book number that you are given, that's another record that I've written down here, and then I keep, within that record, I keep details of your marks all the way across, what I gave you for your erm attainment and effort grades progress checks, your exam marks and so on. So that is my file. That's called ten computer studies file. If I turn over I've also got my eleven scient file, the group that I teach er science to. Turn over further, there's a third file for my upper sixth physics group and so on. So, they are separate files. Each file has got, in your case, seventeen records on it, in the case of my physics group, only five because that's the number of pupils in the group, and then beneath each record it's got the main tutor group, book number various parts. Ok? So, do you understand the basic structure of a file, the records that are in it and then the fields within each record? Right. Ok. Now, how are we going to? Er, this was a read programme for this file that I've already created. What we're gonna look at is how you can create Thank you very much here, go on No, honestly, I couldn't Walking's better No, you might puke up on the way Stick you head out the window and there's puke going everywhere on the parked cars and people's faces you know, being sick and it was all green and disgustingly ukky. You actually saw it going coming out of Really? Yeah, and then we saw the man I dunno, it depends if you read the book. And then there was a bit where a man takes all his clothes off and then just jumps into the river and then there was a bit where she where she's having a bath It's cool Does she? Excuse me, it's my road Is it? Stop dropping litter on it Yeah I got to pub at ten to eleven. But they give, they usually give her a lemonade, erm, like a drink innit? Yeah pear juice, I like as well. Is it? And he walks in the room and tell me what's going on. . She had been at it. Oh, but yeah, cos so. Put the kettle on . Pretty cool out there . Is it? Mm. is dry as one does . well I've finished the kitchen out there. Finished is it? Yeah. The blind. All you've got to do is put a little on and cut the quarter er cornice around the top. That's the cornice at the top is it? Yeah. It does look nice. Yeah. Put all the doors on and all the rest of it. All the doors on the On the units that. Oh yeah. It's great, it's very nice. Course you have doors. Yeah, it come flat pack, you've got to put them all together in order. There's no problem putting doors on? No. There's no problem putting the doors on? No, cos it, eh, a, it's one of those things you already know how to do it or you don't, and he's pretty good though, I, know I can't, I've read the instructions and I put that one, that one loose in the bottom and this one Ah. but I couldn't do it, but he just knows how, he just knows which way to do it. Yeah. I think it is anyhow, they're all nice and level in. Pigs are doors to hang you know. Yeah yours look pretty smart up there now. I bet . Mm, have a look. Got to get the tiler in, just to tile yeah. In between the . It's exactly three tiles it's eighteen inches so Three . Yeah. three? I don't know. How many tiles betw between the worktop and the cupboard there love? Gail! Hang on I can't hear you. Alright don't matter, I'll have a look. How many tiles between the worktop and the cupboard? Is yours level with the top, the ceiling your cupboards? Three. Three, what is it up to the ceiling? It's about erm eight or nine inches from top of cupboard . That's how the were erm,, first one on the right hand side here and little panels. Yeah. He's got long cupboards from the window right up to the ceiling. Yeah. It's right up tight . Yeah. They're er . but olive green type of doors. No, but this looks quite nice . What,you said wasn't it? Is it this sort of colour? Yeah,mid oak, or lighter Might be . Do you like it ? Yes, she's all for it now. That's . Nice little,out for a meal . Long weekend innit? Yeah, it is if she gets into it innit? Love's sitting there, right into it she was. That only cost sixty pound, I said only, well it's better than a hundred pounds she said. That what she said? What's nice about it as well is they, if ever you did want one anywhere, can always sort of couldn't you? Yeah , he's had that before hadn't he? No, he took her over there and pick her up later on. Yeah What, you know, wouldn't mind her staying in there, she didn't mind it, so didn't wake Jo up. Nick says she had a bigger same d , same dinner as what he did, he said he's never seen a kid eat like it. She do eat bloody hell. And then while I was there she was eating a bit of chocolate cake, I mean she's right in the kitchen, she come back in and said oh my god, I said what, she said I've never seen anybody pinch a bit of chocolate cake, on a plate as fast in all my life, Ben didn't want it so she whipped his an' all like. Still got . You tell, when you see Bruce tell him it's . No, it's too sweet for me. No . It's like a funny that . What's it again is it? Which one is it now?. . I wouldn't of gone and see Our Scott woke up one Saturday night about half past about eleven o'clock it was screaming, I said what's the matter,, I thought I , but he don't never ever cry really did. I said to him just go to the toilet, I can't move . Yeah, he was in agony there, so any way carry him to the toilet, sat him on the toilet and sort of sat there with him a bit trying to make him go a wee, cos I thought perhaps he full bladder and couldn't Couldn't go yeah. anyway he went to the toilet, went a wee and I put him back in bed and he was laid there and anyway and, and he eventually dropped off, anyway I was telling my mum about it yesterday, and I didn't sort of think no more of it the next day, right, and mum I said well if ever he gets that again she said you should from the doctor she said, because, one of our boys had it she said and it was a blockage Oh. yeah, so I thought I'd have to keep him . But he was in agony and that. All day yesterday all I heard was didn't that suit you? Didn't that suit you? Oh, I get . . Oh it's so funny, cos the second time he couldn't, he came back and I think I was upstairs, and she didn't shut the door and I said all four, cos I've got to pick her up at five, he said oh, anyway he went back, after dinner he'd gone back and I said told you about it's five o'clock , he said are you on me. Oh he said you didn't, you didn't listen to what I was telling you,did you? I think it was when he come back , I didn't wait, I just couldn't see I just see, you know. think I mind says that I ask where you going now, going now or, well he's not been here. And he come in and there was a, a film on Sky weren't there?like one of erm, I can't . Oh yeah. did you have a lump in your throat? Said what when the little girl with the bag Did you watch that London's Burning last night? Yeah. That was sad weren't it? Yeah. It's a good effort, good series that innit? Yeah, it's ended now though innit? Yeah, what last in the present series? Yeah,be on next oh yeah, next week is that bloody Yeah. Beadle's About's on isn't it? Not Beadle's About, You've Been Framed next week Oh is it? Oh is it? Yeah. What a new series or I don't know, just said instead of Beadle's About. Oh He's cutting my hair today instead of tomorrow. You're not having it cut, ain't got that long has he? Oh look at it. Mm. Be easier to dry it . Will it? Yeah. Oh doesn't need to cut it does she? Yeah. What gotta cut it to thin it love. Why? So, you cut it Yeah, gotta cut it haven't you? Has she? Mm. Thin your hair without cutting it love. What like scissors, you have to, yeah, you've got like a comb Not, not scissors . What she say want it thinned out or ordinary cut or what? She probably have got thinning scissors you know. I should think so. What's the matter? Yeah,. Who's that ? Saturday. Saturday Saturday morning. Mm. I was still in bed so I was Bloody Nora. Got a problem . Didn't . there's a there's a in there out the back side and he's about that much for the our, our top of our roof. That's nice. And he's coming down on all the way through there and he landed just across there and landed, I think he very . Who over where? Him. At the back of Mary and down towards where Home Mead. Bet that was a school . was. down there weren't it? No, it was up here. No, you think about Home Mead, the school playing field is in the Home Mead, yeah. Home Mead innit? Yeah behind Home Mead innit? You . Yes. Whole playing field, the green, the grass is Yes, but he was, he was more in line with you know where Mrs lives? like , yeah. He was, I would say that he was from here, I would say he's more in line with er Mrs lives, that's the sort of back end of er Earls Court. I thought it was Magna Green. Yeah, the, the that way there, I wouldn't say that was he were, I don't think he far enough to the right, to be on the playing field. If it was he didn't . But if he was having trouble firing out Yeah, we'd go you see him pull this thing and he just says well going out again, so I don't know. Oh, didn't snap off, Saturday we was out at M F I Saturday . Were you? Well two ho till three Yeah what a relief was it? There's another one in the distance,. Oh is there? You're better not going out this sort of weather. This was er, from club? Yeah. Right then. This is the part, That's Spring and Summer Catalogue Club. Arthur! Mm? That's new Spring and Summer Catalogue Club. Sorry? My new Spring and Summer Catalogue. Spring and Summer bloody hell. . What book is that? Grattan, I don't believe it . order anything, she said, you don't have order them do you? I said oh no way , two bloody . Bloody hell. Down the Boarman they've had a three, three offers of Hamper Agency for next year. Yeah. I said, who were they love? One was Swindon weren't it and er Littlewoods. Time do you love . Saucepan . Erm, what for the school?so we ain't got to the , both together in the Yeah on, I thought it was this week but it isn't it's the seventeenth, so I rang Steve and he said I better . I said he said no, I said why you want against her, he said yeah, he said what and he said I would of got up and actually run. Mm. my mate's . Yeah. What she ought to do is, I know what I'd do is leave Anthony and Maria and they can put them down and go and see What headmistress and, and our Tracy said you should have bloody given, teachers have gone down there Yeah. I go down and say that it's not good enough. Right . Alright Arf, tara then. Got your . Cloths, chamois. Yeah, got your thing round your waist. No, that's tara then. Bye now. Bye bye Arf Yes, he should of gone then, I don't think . Try and get it sorted out now if he ain't any better I'd get . . What ? Yes. Well, can't he be moved into a different class? What if he special needs. That Michael went there did he? Well he's only gonna get worse. It's not fair on the other children is it? Cos they know he's been . He did school didn't he? Yeah, down by the shops, opposite the shops, by and that. Yeah. It's . Oh, Gail. Sorry. You were supposed to have told me. I forgot. When was it? Last week. Did he get anything? Erm, a couple of, a little thing for a little dolly for that stocking erm He got three things, oh a pastry things Oh yeah. That was one twenty five and I give him . Yeah. And . It's all like for little kids, younger kids. Like Daniel? Yeah. What sort of age three or . Did yeah? Right I suppose I've better got to do some housework Gail. Yeah, got to . They . How much were these Gail? Sixteen ninety five. They're alright They look alright. Alright, aren't they? Yeah.. Not really. the same. If I put hers Tell you how to do, see, right Gail? It's an hour . Put her foot on it when she comes in , that's her school bus, bus thirteen, do they fit her? Do they fit her? Yeah only just, that's . When she comes in keep this out right? Yeah. And when she comes in, what's that one, put her left foot on it, right? Yeah. And if, if her foot overlaps it all, take them back, cos you might be better off just getting two anyway Yeah. cos Scott's, Scott's in a two football boot, there sort of thing innit? Yeah. She's gonna wear her thick socks with them,dangling aren't they? Yeah. That's what I'd be inclined to do so on top of the telly, and say just put your foot on here a minute, now, they look quite thin now, but, that's what I was looking at, yeah, cos her feet are fat, yeah, but they, that do like that don't they? Yeah, that, yeah ,spreads out to the side anyway, don't it? Yeah, put these . Try her foot on it and if it don't, if her foot overlaps Yeah. then take them back up and get a two. Cos the thing is as well, I might be inclined to get a two anyway, because she wants it to last a little while don't she? Anyway , yeah. They're not gonna last very long not a like that is it? Is that how it was? Yeah. That was quick . Yeah . Yeah. I'm not going to do no housework today. , see mum and dad on Saturday at . Yeah.. If erm Go on. if her foot's wide, wider than that would it matter? Well yeah, cos it ought to be tight on her, across. But if her foot's wider, you'll get the bigger size it'll take it up on the length bit. Yeah. So I'd be more inclined, let me have a look at her when she comes in, send her up. Yeah see, is it, I mean sometimes Scott's foot too wide for a both sides. Mm. Yeah their trainers upstairs they still, they fit alright. Yeah. They're not tight, that's why I went for a one cos I thought it's like a trainer innit? Yeah yeah You look quite a way . Only other thing I can you do is try it on when she's asleep. That's what I do with his football boots I bought him,. I, I looking at them . Yeah. They look big enough don't they? Yeah Yeah, alright then. I'll see you later on. I'm sorry I, I nearly walked out, yeah, that's not him, not let him, that watch that, cos it is a bit It's not too bad No. It could be a lot worse. No, there's been she could say what she doing? Yeah . sort of takes it all in says oh that's a bit rude. cup of tea on there. Got this fantastic kitchen up here and he's still got Is that a bread knife? Yeah, cut me finger on . Yeah, I know. I don't know . , bionic make, bionic make yeah Ah your compost heap's gone in , ah. As you can tell I cut my finger up. Oh dear. Yeah. You didn't mind changing? No,. How did you get on at the doctor's? Alright, erm she, erm, she, he thought she had thrush, cos she like . Mm. But erm, think it's worms now. What? Worms? Yeah, they before he said that's a classic symptom, like being red sore down below Yeah. course I didn't know until I went to put the cream on her, I thought oh what's that, little bit of tissue, it moved and . Oh my god. Yeah,, so erm, I've got to get some medicine for all of us in a minute, put the prescription in, but erm, you know, she's had it really for a week like, even though she was treated for thrush Mm. , I'm on antibiotics cos I got my . Oh Quite thick my hair. Mm when did she come in from school then Hayley? Just Put in two o'clock. Yes . But come over to you in it, right in, right in the end of . Oh. . Don't like that. No. The next whiz round with the vacuum , oh dear Jackie's got her new car now, then She's got the new, what the new, new one? The blue one. I haven't seen that one yet. Geoff's put the engine in it, the other one, the white one. White one And you tape all the music as well. Well what it was, we watch erm London's Burning London's Burning. so we it was on We have to watch London's Burning, oh great. Oh yeah, watch that. That's that's what happens. Wasn't the last one was it? Yeah, yeah What, I didn't mean, I'm sure it's on again next week. No. No. No. I be funny if . Haven't actually watched Who Framed Roger Rabbit yet Yet, you ages ago, you, erm, she, oh she watched it. She watched it on video , we ain't watch, we ain't watch it on Sky. Not watched it on v No, it's on tonight, she had it on video, eight o'clock It's a good film though innit? Yeah, cos she was watching at our house one day when she come down Aha. and she had to go home before it finished. Ah. It was eight o'clock I'd tape it for her, running out of tapes. Put on my Christmas list,, put on sometimes doesn't it? Yeah. That's like erm, with that Pretty Woman, two people asked us to tape it, I thought well there's no way we can do it, cos we just taped for ourself, they'll just have to borrow it. Yeah. You know you never get them back otherwise. Long innit? Mm. What was the film on, did you watch that Memphis Belle? Yeah, I didn't think much of it. Didn't you? I thought it was good, I thought it was good. Well I thought it was a good film. I want to see that immediate family right afterwards. No, I'm not into that either. Oh, you don't want to see that? No, no, we watched erm you watch that last night? Yeah. Ah it's good weren't it,like that, that little girl's image of my n my niece. Is she? Yeah. Even that's a little. Yeah,except for her, oh got blonde hair Mm. Yeah, she, she's upstairs . That was the real weren't it? It's just Well yes, well they're actors, cos it's a real film innit? , gone with Father Christmas. Are they watching the bo , wrestling or No, no. Arthur watch it. I, I'd sit and watch it, if that's what, what was on but erm, I wouldn't put it on to watch. Erm, I got He hates it, he don't like it at all.. Yeah. he put on like I before Ghost is on I would think. No. Out on video innit? Mm There's this film like you know, when it's turn like cinema or not, Silvester Stallone, and it's called Oscar, did you ever see the preview of that? No. Well it's a comedy, you know, like, a gangster who's trying to go straight, and apparently it's, it's hilarious make. Is it? And you see that when it comes out, but, if you that. Yeah, but erm, Total Recall's come on Sky isn't it? What's that one then? Arnold Schwartzenegger. Oh is it? I'm not too . Oh I like But I haven't even shown the kids it first. Yeah. I had that on video just before we had Sky Movies. That right? Yeah. Is it that good? Oh it's . Mm. Nat liked it. Oh that Earnest film's on tonight. Oh is it tonight is it? Yeah. What is it it's not his sort of Prefer it to . He don't like American comedy at all. Oh doesn't he? No, not what's, what so Half six innit? Yeah,What's that erm National ? Yeah, he don't like that either,. That don't half grow doesn't it? I know glad it does. Yeah Saturday, did he tell you he see, he see me? No. Oh, well he was over by erm I was in bed Saturday the toilets ah? I was in bed all day Saturday. Yeah. Yeah, I . Erm yeah he was, he was working on the by the park Oh yeah. and that or a yeah, yes, we were coming back through that little lane in Berrison Way Yeah. and who should be between the back of the houses, but , he said my god, he said, you get everywhere, so I said so do you. What makes the other day, I find out that erm Demi Moore Mm. who was in Ghost is married to Bruce Willis. Is she? Yeah. I didn't know that either. Yeah,I would imagine Oh This is gonna be a year over with . I know. Well, got your tree up at home? No,. Oh . It's too early, it is Is. it's a long time innit? Yeah. Thing is this you know,too much excitement she want Jackie said to me last week she said, well it's the first of December . We never, when we were kids,about the week before. Yeah. It's horrible that, wait, about two weeks. Yeah. put up with Claire's nagging. I've got the wrapping Yeah. let alone anything Yeah. the tree, all day yesterday. So you like that Weekend at Bernie's then? Oh yeah, that,she's still on about it now went on again, went on again. Trouble is it only comes on like it sort of early hours of the morning yeah. Morning, yeah The, the only thing is, it's an excellent film. Mm. I said tell mum to watch it, but she's, I said what do you think, she said well, actor who was playing Bernie was good. When you think about it, yeah he was So what's been wrong over the weekend then you had a cold or ? I got erm, like erm, I can't remember what you call it now, it's sort of like tricky erm,, all in me Brain. confused , all in my tubes it is, and I had a temperature and that Yeah. It's alright when the What else ? When I take two and found out at the end of it there was a bit of erm Die Hard cos they're a bit at this . Long, yeah. that was nearly two hours long weren't it? Yeah. The adverts come on, I kept turning over I said for christ sake stop it How's your mum? Fine. Good. She come up the weekend but she didn't come over cos I wasn't very well, and I'd of . . No, she, she said that erm , didn't stay very long, but Well can't blame . . Is living in ? Yeah What's that with a relation innit? No, with a man. Oh with a man. Yeah, with a man. Harry. Harry. Harry . They're happy, it doesn't matter There's some women and, you know, there's quite a few, I mean, there's never ever looked at another man, do you know what I mean, and not being funny, but erm, and yet there's some of them can't live without them. No, I think I'd have one of those, it's not like being on a Cos she erm, said even he won't She can't make up her mind about What she can make herself sick . So, she's not one to play on it for not going to school though, so Hang on there, hang on , there we are. Thank you, that apple pie looks nice. Do you want a bit? Yeah. I don't know what . Only a little tiddy bit, I might be on a diet you try and get rid of it? No, want a bit Hayley? yeah. Very nice. That big? No, a bit smaller than that. That big? That bit, go on . Yeah, I'll try it. Arthur's home made pies, get down. Can you make pastry? Eh? Can you make pastry? Yeah. he reckons I make better pastry than what I . Yeah. Yeah. Hello Soph Yeah. Your own kitchen would of made a difference whatever way you done it,did your cooker shrunk? Yeah, that's it,double cooker actually , gonna try, get some flooring down for Colin's mum, just gonna put some cheap lino down for now Mm , mm. and er, get the rest of that wood before Christmas, I said and how you gonna do that, he said at weekends, I said yeah two, Mm. he said well what about rainy days? Yeah lately well he said I've got to do it. do you want a coffee? That washing is, is drying, tis innit? Got washing machine . Got a washing line? No I don't. What you do? Well I have to go down cos of the greenhouse Greenhouse? and then all back up. Oh. So in the summer You should of put all quite easy really, Yeah. of course, now I put a lot of my . Yeah, yeah. Oh that's better Sue, alright? Yeah, that looks great. No, don't, I just want you to put your foot on there a minute. Why? Take your shoe off. Why? Cos I want to, this is out of Your taping me on there aren't you? Oh, you're not suppose to say that your taping me on there aren't you?, just be, just stand up Why have I'd a . Put your foot back in there. Why mum?why doesn't, mum my foot on here. Cos I'm trying something a minute. If that was erm, a trainer, would that fit her?. Only just. Put your foot down now let me see . . Are we . Cos her foot hanging right over this side. Yeah, her toes heal of her toes though. They were . Yeah there too . Take your heal back a little fraction, that's it, ooh, yeah, only just Mum, but why do we have to. I'm just asking you, this is else, someone's trainer Who's? My friends Why? Cos she bought some trainers for her little girl, right, you know Karen? Adam's mum Yeah. yeah, well she bought some trainers for her little girl and she doesn't want to show her, she didn't know what size to get so she took of it to see what size it was, and I said well Natalie's a thirteen, that'll be a thirteen if it fits her. Mm, she didn't really want and what's a little. Didn't have a size inside it I don't know, didn't ask. So you can't do that with it mum? Yeah Put your foot on it again Thirteen ain't that. No, its to . Thirteen thirteen , I'd better take my . Say something Arf. Pardon? Say something. I don't want to say anything for, I'm reading and I don't read out er loud. Yes, well, your on there. Yeah, well in five minutes its all I'm gonna put it, cushion under my head and then you can tape me snoring . I don't , yes snoring . Well I'm so tired . You won't be snoring I know it, you never do snore. I think you use I think you snore,don't snore. You tell lies don't you? No, my doesn't snore. Well I woke myself up snoring last night. . You . Don't be silly your out the front door For Lisa oh . I have What is your spelling . In my school and I'm not learning them now . No, well I wonder what they are? There hard. There hard are they? . Oh, Nat get up and walk properly. I am. Oh Jesus, oh my god it's not is it? . . No, you can make that Oh your doing well by that, that Arf. Hello, alright?, how much is left on me thing? . Yeah. What number? One eighty eight pay for it today One eighty eight,. Oh yeah, it's getting quite cold, I reckon were in for some snow. Yeah, well were suppose to get it, oh I hope it doesn't snow yet,my son's got to come in yet. Where's he? Where is he? He's at university . Is he? And he's coming in a fortnight Saturday gone, so it mustn't snow not till he gets in , No, not yet , I'd hate for him to be stuck up there for last week in March oh yeah sixty ninety nine. yeah I'll pay for that then, alright, what is it Penny . Yeah. . Oh there's so much, I could do with Christmas at the . Yeah. hire someone. . Can you manage it like that? Yes, that's alright. Bag isn't that good. Oh, that's alright Six ninety nine please. . . There's another one there. Yeah, I was gonna say there should be another six ninety nine, seven, eight, nine, ten. Lovely, alright then. . Yes,li oh in me handbag. Oh saw it down Oh I forgot to bring it down. What's the matter with these bloody pens? . God. Neither of them do write, oh here he goes, he must of been a bit cold. Yeah. It's cold in it? It ain't cold. Thanks then Diane. only going to cross it off and use it again . You ain't got no men's slippers have you, not really? No, no. No, oh alright then, don't mind, alright, never mind, ta la Diane bye . Bye . Hello. Hey, this is my lavatory here, they have to believe work. Alright Gail? Yes m'dear. Were talking about whether we should be going out to work or not? No,. . Hello sweetheart. I feel like I can be contributed towards for I must admit that, I do feel as though I could be pulling my weight a bit, especially when Chris worries about money. Yes. Like, you know, I saw like, what really, I'd sat there, I mean like you say, I and I admit that I odds and ends that'll probably take me about an hour in total Mm. you know, I have got to get , I mean we've got to be ready at four ain't we, which means we'll have to be ready before we get there, My , got nothing in there sweetheart, didn't get any sweeties. a good afternoon out me way innit? Mm. . Yeah, go on then. What you do then? Down the shop, got Nat's Oh Penny thing, got to get her some bloody shoes, keep moaning her feet hurt, tut, new pair Where . What size does she have? thirteen and a half, and that's blinking, that's Clark's, new pair September. Oh what happened to three months' bloody growing room then, I , I, take the back, got the receipt? Growing room, yeah . I don't know,I don't think I have. Oh I've got receipt,three months They don't to September, October, it is innit? Yeah. Our Mat was moaning he's, he's got those suede boots and he was moaning the , this morning I goes don't bloody , I, I, more . trying to see,you got Christmas, you got holidays Yeah. Yeah. . Well it's so you can't do much about it can ya? No. She ain't got a pair of trainers I . Yeah, she's got like your school not there black, they're white ones, lace-up ones, they look like little pumps . They're different then to my Gail. And er, she said oh yeah, but the laces is too short, so I thought I get some other laces. Yeah, put a longer pair of laces in . Laces in, yeah Oh yeah. Say wear those, cos that's what she was gonna wear Christmas Day with her shell suit, I thought oh, ah, she ain't one for wearing trainers that, cos she won't wear trainers because her feet smell . . she won't she won't wear them. . You never guess what I didn't, forgot to get at the shop . Oh I got some on me, what you doing with my shoes? Yeah. Yeah, I got, she erm, our . . What? . What you doing? I've got What do you think of the tree then? Fine. Got yours up yet? No not yet. Seems a bit early yet Bud, I don't bother usually putting mine up till . . No, I don't either, I'm not like, not into Christmas at all yet, I can't . Nor are we. .. It's only three weeks.. It doesn't seem right, does it? It just My God I think I'm going to . That's in it? Innit though, that you people all a fucking . . , do you know what we spent, listen, listen, mummy do this, we spent a Christmas in Hungary right, their Christmases right, Christmas Eve the snowplough is out on the road clearing the snow, it was that deep, it was up in Oh that's nice. and it was windy right, he got a tree a third of the height of that on a table, they puts it up on a table, and underneath the tree they have got one present which is member of the family from each member of the family, right, that is it, one present, it maybe a box of chocolates, you know, or a box of cigars, something like that, children wake up Christmas morning they have a bag which is about that big, with a full of sweets and bits and pieces, little toy car thing and they have one big present, right, and I'll tell you what festivity over there is as well, that must , it because it's not over dark because there no big glory about it, there so much more relaxed that, well Chris he said, yeah . Yeah . Oh Dummy popped, popped Too much now in it?. Chris he It's competition. it's, the festivities gone from this, all it is, is an excuse to drink in it? Yeah, yeah but you've just been and then for us now, cos we're the parents it's a bag of shit in it Christmas? Yeah. But for the kid, this way Yeah, but who . . Yeah but would they, what I mean is that there are even for the parents What, I suppose every comes along I want that . Yeah. It's so relaxed Oh. Yeah It's so, I mean, wake up Christmas morning and they put a tray out, the first thing they do on, the last thing at night, Christmas Eve they put a big tray out and on the tray they got it's a called and they're like chocolate biscuits, they're like biscuits, right, and that gets with every member of the house, say there's ten in that house, that that gets lined round the outside of the tray, right, and then inside of that'll be now a circle of the wine, and then they have like whatever drink they got in the middle and the first thing that happens Christmas Eve morning is they get up and that gets poured and the tray goes round, if you sit down . and the tray, that's it though, that is it actual Christmas drink that goes round the room and then the presents come out I look out the window and the snow blow Yeah. and it's sort of gone in five minutes . Yeah,gets up bloody in the middle of the night. We got up at eight and I Well she need Yeah our Chris was up, our Chris was up, woke up about five o'clock and . Well Nat woke up at, half past one, she was awake then all night she kept coming in Oh Jesus Christ Oh God right putting my lot . and then er, so by half past four I just about had enough like, so five o'clock I said well for Christ sake come on open your stocking now like and waking Arthur up and he saying well I ain't , and I said come on it's five o'clock, alright, and by six o'clock we're downstairs, half past six the door I wish I could be like it, cos I'm so unorganised Christmas morning, by five o'clock I'm not even dressed. Well then by half past ten, ten o'clock I'm down and then Nat, Nat sees her And then I all morning have me dinner, Arf's done the dinner and have me Christmas dinner and then go to sleep all afternoon . Well we don't, we usually erm have a about an hour goes to sleep for an hour . I setting the alarm this year,. No, no. I wouldn't like that, that seems terrible. Mind I wouldn't mind that quarter past eight. I haven't got to wake her up all morning, but Christmas Eve No, no, they don't usually wake . I think because they don't go off to sleep so early, it's so late there going off erm. I thought our Charlie was getting our . Oh I don't put it up there, I don't even put it up. I don't know if I'm going to do it this year cos this year she's chosen, I've got four, right there's two the same which she usually has up those, like she'll hang one up, fill one up and swop them over Oh this year she chose a big one like I got for Arf last year, cos I ain't got a double of that so I'm going to have to tape it off, fill it up and then put it back on cos in case she opens mine. . Happy Christmas down the playschool. No. Mm, yeah. Yeah who is it phone. . Yeah, I told her if I . What you call fun, yeah, that's . And she said last year I'd pulled that on the furniture, and like the first year you're old enough to really wrap and there was a tap on the window and Theresa went out and she went, and come back and she went oh my God Father Christmas is out there and she said . Christmas Eve and in he come said he got the, I, he don't recognise, they don't recognise him, he got like a black he says Ho, Ho, are you all behaving yourselves , Victoria sitting there giving it yeah . I mean that's brilliant in't it, they do it every year in that, just brilliant, I reckon that's real, Mm. that is really the part in it? Mm. Imagine your Janice face I bet she isn't, I bet when she ought to like Father Christmas and they sort of Well he he Father Christmas That was Saturday weren't it? . That was the best part when Chris was in, when the girls were in the nursery weren't it,. You done it last year didn't you? You can't do it. Yeah he did, yeah, cos the girls were in the first class and he was in the nursery, yeah that's right, yeah, and they . Got hair on it Nursery . They're not knowing this , he weren't, I think that the . Don't work . . You do it, you do it, you do it Dan, this time last year he was in bloody hospital weren't he?got to blow I likes it when it's the year but I don't like the build-up to it, I don't like mm I don't like all my . No I don't, I can't stand the shopping, I can't stand the wrapping up, there's, your all the time. I wrapped a pile up last night. I did, I hate . Your, your mind is sort of like working overtime all the time innit, thinking Christ what else have I got to get, is there anything I've forgotten, that's what I don't like. Well, I remem , I remember yesterday I went out, thirteen pound it cost me, oh that's What do you want a drink? No. Yeah Do you want a drink Dan? Yeah. Yeah, here are then. . Mummy. Here. That's gone out ain't she? She's real are ya? Oh Yes it's horrible, they're, they're all horrible. Oh, er, paper in me hand Now you know why don't bother with them they're all bloody horrible. Twenty tree, show you the Christmas tree . . Oh Charlie shut her up at, at Chris's mums funeral, when we went to Chris's mum funeral, she's erm, she said something or other about, request something or other about, pointing at the I shouldn't've been there really because I didn't know her and Charlie said she felt didn't know her and erm she said oh well Rose never spoke about her, or words to that effect, Chris says the reason our mum never spoke about her cos she never showed her face in here anyway, he said when was the last time you see your mum, at that, she shut straight up like that, her face went, she'd like saying that I shouldn't've been there cos I didn't know her, I mean yet, she ain't set foot in the house for fucking year like, you know she's a horrible cow, and like when we went in the church, when we went in the crematorium er you had, she had a nice, big one up on the hill is it Arnold's? Yeah. and we went in and like the vicar greets you at the door don't he and she was like up to the vicar like, you know, she's more fucking heavier than thou . there she . . she had . As I remembered old nag, and he had his wife with her, you know,really do, if there's one people I if there's people in this world that I hate, it's got to be the religion Yeah. . Does anybody knock your doors Sunday, Saturday? Ah Jehovah Witnesses weren't it,. I thought they were Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses Was it Jehovah Witnesses or Mormons? Mormons. Mormons. Mormons. Jehovah Witnesses, . They just don't shut up do they. What erm I've seen them wandering around, this is when I'm out shopping I find out . He's just like , you know, they say . Isn't there any sort of erm church or anything like that, I'm sure there's one over there, is, do you know anybody round here that's sort of religious . . Brrrm. We usually pick, most of them keep their religion to themselves don't they for me I wouldn't know . Yeah, I don't know , I don't, I think religion's gone out the door to be honest with you, I don't think any religion with anyone really, erm, and is important in life that is used today, no, bloody don't, I . Do you . But they do nothing do they? It's just another way of er . I think the only people, right, the only people that go to church is the religious people or ones that have something to feel shameful about. They go because they need to cover some sort of guilt, I'm convinced of that now, the more people that I know I mean fib of all people fib is now turned to religion . Oops you've dropped it , no, that way now Dan that way. Have you ever heard anything so stupid in all your life, I mean she's committed all the sins under the sun . yeah, like , well actually that is the one worse sin in it? . Yeah. . And she is now going up . . . Any of you ever . That'll be like me going up there Yeah. Well it's like all these got these of life in it,come out what'll happen to her, the first thing they do is turn to God. . It's gone. Dennis Neilson and Jack, Jack the Ripper whatever his name is Peter Sutcliffe. Yeah, Myra Hindley, who's another one innit, you know, off we go, if I don't praise God and you know God it'll, he'll forgive me for all my sins, bollocks, in it? I mean it's not the likes of the normal people like me and you that go to It'll be alright like, yeah . If I go to . you might not There's another fact . no it's not yours. Oh sorry. They are, what, there,they goes up the Catholic school where your sister's kids go Oh yeah. up there, right, there's the she's on her fifth child, she's got four kids, she just about to have her fifth Oh, Christ. and they are the most rude, arrogant, well Obnoxious. yeah, him, I can't even bring myself to speak to him. . . Christ knows what she'll have . what she'll have for this though, bloody Theodore or something. . Yeah, something stupid, and they knocked on the door, do you know what I mean, the most kids it's like, it's hiya Matthew, hi aunty , they knock on the door, I want to play with Hannah, I want to play with Matthew, Mat has, Mat has got to go out and play with them, and it's my Milky Bar you can't not can I have one of your sweets Mat, my mother said I, I can have one of those sweets. Well my there's never any please, there's never any thank you, there's nothing, I mean there are aren't they,when he was saying that all he's done for her and they virtually like turned their back on them, he got out in all those winds and weather weren't it, but, we built there and he come out apparently and said I don't want you having anything else to do with my kids, Where's the pen? I mean,I don't mean that, I done the Oh there he is, in my pocket, it's in my pocket. . Yeah, that's Earl, that's it never stand her, I could never, ever tolerate her. . . No. Oh, she goes up your school now with her little girl. . She wears a brown rain mac, right, oh she yeah red and long dark grey greasy hair ,. . . And her pumps are like that, I'm,like that, and she got, she she got like this from there . . she's really fat,she's ginormous, never seen anything . Oh . Yeah, that fire, she had that bloody fire going. turned it off. Where's daddy Bye, bye. Where's Steve? Bye, bye. Where's Steve? Well I'm going now, you better watch that, you better watch that, and . Yeah. in her mini-skirt aren't you Jack? . . Where you off to? Well I . . Go and make yourself a first. Yeah. and if we do some I knew she had but our , and it . And it makes you . I bought What please . Hang on there love. I thought there . . I was red, if I'm in the red light area, she's going off, banging her . Yeah,. kinky boots, kinky boots. Got on well. Here's Brendan for you. Oh you . . . Bye bye children I'll see you all later. Bye, bye. Four o'clock then. Four o'clock, yeah. Bye, bye then. Ta la then see you later . Ta la Jack bye. You leave that alone.. I don't,. Oh dear . Got . No, I've never seen her before . could you leave my tea-bag in there a bit longer,. Yes, she likes her tea-bag really strong . Strong . do you want another coffee? Yeah, go on then, she's good . Is she, I don't know her . Yeah, she . . but she'd do anything for you,if you say like midnight one night you got her out of bed and come down . Yeah . No. Yeah, when she when she bath,. Yeah quite a laugh really. up the top . I wonder where you was going , anyone seen this bloody Avon book, don't know if they . I didn't have enough of that, mine was, not like I thought it was quite good. oh I didn't . down this week.. Yeah, I thought it was about the best one ever. Your . Yes, I thought it was Kim sat there when I first come down the stair, I didn't know, didn't know her. Never seen each other before?. No. No, I don't think she have called in here. No. No. Gone a long time . Ah? He's been gone a long time Mm, no. . I said I ain't done anything, says you've made your bed and all that mum, the bathroom's clean,. . . Who . Yeah. Oh,has she? Yeah. What's the matter, what's the matter, matter. . He's as good as gold in' he?. Lovely,lovely Eeer, who's had that? I should get her some lacy . Yeah. No, I not bother with bloody shoes or that . Well I thought if she ain't gonna wear them over, there's two weeks she ain't gonna wear them over Christmas look No. she's only got three weeks, well, three and a half weeks to go . grow out of them again . Out of them, yeah. Ah ain't that nice,. Not bad, going . Yeah, that's it. Say night night. Ah, night night pet, there's a good boy . . . Huh? Oh, ah. That's pretty in it? Oh pretty, oh. See she cut your hair alright then Gail? Yeah, it's alright in it? Thinned it out more than she cut it . Where'd you have that done? My friend done it. Oh,. One fifty . Bloody hell . She charges me , she charges me a five for me per for a perm. I always gives her like six cos I thinks well, you know she comes , yeah. Yeah, oh God this morning. Did you? I gets too hot in mine. . Oh God I do, I can't wear it. . Oh gosh, she is in't she? Anybody watch that erm,last Friday. No, I had Sky on I think Who Framed Roger Rabbit? light on, well have you ever seen that . No , oh Alison my mate was on about that. Oh, it was terrible, I'd seen it on video, it's really sad. No. . Get the saucepans out. Ah? I said here it comes, get the saucepans out. Oh. . What, what is it? . Show mummy, what is it? . I don't know if it's a sweet or a Dan say Arthur. Arthur. . Arthur . Arthur . Arthur , Arthur. Say Gail. Gail. Gail. Say Natalie. Natalie. Natalie. . Can't say Caroline, Say Caroline. . . too hard, it is innit . Caroline. Bang, bang, bang. Where's Matthew?, where's Matthew? Matthew. Matthew . . Say Matthew. Matthew. Matthew. And Katie,. where's Katie? , thanks Pat. here it's gonna snow the weekend innit? Supposed to, yeah. Yeah. Mm. Mum said did I, it was, oh no you weren't with me Nerys. I don't know who Nerys is, you all talk about Nerys and talk about, I don't know what it is about her I don't like her, very often I sort of she, to me she's sarcastic, the way, the way she's talking to you there's sarcasm there all the time, you know, like Oh lovely Dan, yeah, mind me coffee. . Put them out in the kitchen, out in the kitchen. . Yeah, she erm, she turns off er I can't tolerate that, you know, I can't Jean tell you about that . Oh was that, that girl that was here, no, I've heard about her, yeah . Yeah . She got, he got bronchitis. . . Good God you haven't heard if Karen's gone back in, no. What, who's Karen? My friend round the corner. She's not like thirty four weeks and the baby's only twenty six and she's got to stay in for a week at Southwood, then come home weekends and go back in. Oh,. Yeah, yeah and she's, yeah, and she says she's so fed cos to her there's nothing wrong with her , the baby did put on weight last week, but she said you know, what do you do in here all day . They did that with me with Hannah, right, they, when er, she had B P P done, what they call a B P P, when they do a prick of the baby Oh I don't know, she's had stuff taken from the placenta and all that's as well, yeah . That's it, that's what I had they told and they said that it might be that she's just, she's just is small for her size, but it might be that Katie taken all the goodness from Hannah Yeah. and erm, I mean they I mean they were born Good God, they reckon hers is gonna be three and a half to four pounds. . Yeah, yeah. . Five. . Yeah. Course she's worried, cos like she smokes a lot and she's say what thirty and that's her first, and they keep going on to her all the time like, I said well don't worry about it, you know. she does feel guilty perhaps she can just try and cut down a bit now. Well she has, she has, yeah, she's gone from twenty to five. Well And it is five, do you know what I mean it is like what I used to say to Rose . . ,. I mean Adam's lucky in that respect, I couldn't smoke when I was pregnant, I, it made me feel sick, I couldn't stand the smell of it, I had no urge to smoke at all, I went right off smoking, I respect, I was lucky, but I do feel sorry for these people that smoking at present cos it must be ever so hard. Yeah, I didn't smoke for the first six months and then I finished work and I was at home And you got bored. yeah, and I used to go round and see our Trace every day, and she was still smoking . and er, so I used to, I started again and then I didn't smoke until I come out of ho , when I come out, I didn't smoke Mm. for about a month, six weeks, cos I had so much on me mind . yeah, there's only three weeks between Nat and Neill Yeah, she's . yeah, yeah . Neill, he was seven pound odd so it makes you feel, sometime you think that makes you think well, it didn't affect, you know, No. but there again everybody's different aren't they? I think they have got a point, I think it might, it might , Yeah , yeah. have some effect on the baby. Well it's got to I think we've, look what it's doing to yourself Yeah, I think it must have some effect there And seeing you've got another life inside you , it must be doing something to them mustn't it? It's bound to harm, I mean I know what you said when he had all that problem, he sort of said reckon cos I smoke. You know I think you always bring the blame back don't you? Yeah. That's . Yeah. I mean if your child was born with one arm you'll still fucking blame yourself for it wouldn't you at the end of the day. Yeah , yeah It must be difficult, like I said I was lucky in the respect that I had, it never ever appealed to, to the minute I got pregnant, from the minute . Yeah. . I, I had to really stop meself. That really turned my stomach, even if, I mean I remember when I was carrying, when I was carrying the twins,and he used to go out huge things you know,and so much so that if he came home in the night, right, and I was already in bed asleep, I would be able to er, he would wake me in the bedroom cos I could smell smoke on him, but he didn't smoke, but where he'd been the pub or a night club, I smelt In the pub, yeah . He smokes now though didn't he? yeah,and I would make him there and then no matter what time of night or morning it was, strip off and go in the shower and , yeah, even in his hair, that's, that's how bad it was, I'd put his clothes downstairs in the washing basket not even in the bedroom one . I mean it was, it kept me awake it didn't matter how . You were together when you moved in though weren't you? cos I remember you moving in like thinking cor look at her with three kids , yeah. Yeah, we were, ah erm, we were together when we actually met, it was sort of on and off really . I remember Steve saying, remember called her, cor you seen that girl that lives down the road cor there . What . Yeah,. . Cor you seen her, she's ever so nice, don't know what her name is . Oh don't you embarrass me. He said so, didn't he? Yeah. God, I thought I was fat as hell when I moved up here, I felt really gross I'll tell you.. . Cos you, I, I,did I . Dan, he's after that ashtray mind. I hadn't seen you for months I didn't know you for er It was a year Yeah. That was the year we moved in in the August, well that was the following summer Following summer . so it was, even then, it was summer after that she was trying for Em, it was two years after. Was it? Yeah. How long have you lived here then Carol? Three years. Good God. Three and a half years. Yeah. It's hot darling. It's about three and a half years. . Hot. It was in the summer holidays and Matthew was going to start school, so he he's just had his fourth birthday just had his fourth birthday when he moved in here, the twins that were coming up to their second yeah Matthew like, like Gemma,Gemma yeah and by the time I knew you that weren't the summer after . because they started at nursery that summer. worked down the garage,. Yeah. Well that was before you coped out for him weren't it? Yeah, that was two years Ages . that was the second summer I'd been there when you used to come down, don't you be silly, cos he said to me, you remember Roy don't you and I said yeah,and he use to er, like if he used to come back without me, are you? Yeah, cos we was there in the August, they weren't, we moved in, in the July, there, and the girls were, Matthew was just four, cos just as we moved in our dad took Matthew to Hungary with him, it was like, it was like they were going on the following Wednesday, and he told me on the Friday, he came in on the Friday night, they planned, it was our dad, Crystal and Danielle,Crystal and Danielle,but she said even if I go out in the middle of . What's that noise? . Little what's that noise? He said that's when they put presents round and er he come in on the Friday on the Friday night and I mean I was in a right state, I mean we've been in there about seven weeks and I was like at the point of like a nervous breakdown and he said to me how do you feel about me taking Matthew from you , so I said I he said I think you need a break . Cos the girls were a little bit different sort of understand, I think Matthew suffered, Matthew was the one that, that had suffered through it, he was four, and he was old enough to understand a little bit more he knew how brushing off on him Yeah. , he was beginning to get naughty Yeah. and he knew what way, I was at a low Yeah. one thing and another and I said oh I don't know, and there are Sunday and said look about taking Matthew, why don't you let him go and I said well it's a, it's a long time, you know for Bye. and I don't know how he, you are,and in the end our cousins you, you know convince me that they'd take sort of control, you know that, if I was worried as well about or dad getting drunk, one thing or another like, you know, and said look we're going, it's not as though we're not going, we're going and we'll have him in with us and I let him go in the end cos I went down in the five weeks Oh God. Five weeks . , we went in the August and they were back by September, so he could start back well school and I'd been in, in the summer holidays and they said and I felt poor little bastard, got to start a new school, he ain't gonna know anybody Anybody, yeah. a new house, brand new house, you know, then he gets carted off to Hungary for five fucking weeks then . he was a different child when he got back, the break did do him good and, and thoroughly enjoyed it Yeah. and he did enjoy that Take your bibby off. but make me laugh even now, she said the first, the first memories I've got of new little boy that starting in he looked at this little boy, she said, so, so excited by said with this pure white hair and the said down the corridor he walked in his full uniform, the first morning say and that memory son will always stick ya, cos when I give her over that picture of the twins at Christmas, she, she looked up, she sort of looked up at me, she said I've got tears in my eyes haven't I, and I looked and like I was choked as well and I, she sort of, I said yeah you are and she said, every time I look at them it brings back those memories the first memories of this little boy Yeah that we haven't ever seen cos he looks stuck in Hungary, she said and I'll never forget she said we put a name tag on him I've been to Hungary. . And she said like I took to him instantly Yeah. said my first reaction was what you know, what a gorgeous little boy and and I Well yes, it's not like a week away is it? No, I missed him so much, that it really made me appreciate, you know. But , yeah, yeah oh walking around. all through the weekend he wasn't sleeping at night, he was up all night and he was just really yeah, he was really naughty and he was erm, I mean I had the other two erm, Oh yeah. I mean to we had to literally eat in the one day Yeah. and I mean he walked through the door, I walked through the kitchen in like you know,and the back window, the kitchen window like . Oh God, cos you had it after Mrs weren't it? after the old women. Oh fucking mess, I've never seen . Cos now, they don't do that nowadays though do they cos the go in and They bloody do. do they, I thought they had to They will with an eviction Oh eviction, yeah, of course. cos you can't refuse it, can ya? No, no. You just get what, whatever, you know, whatever they give you and that's it . I don't think Daniel's going to go to sleep. No.. Who Ann? Yeah, , oh God. . I imagine in a couple of years' time, Bud's gonna have a lot of trouble with him. Yeah. You can see it coming. . I can see it coming myself. . Mm, mm get into trouble, you know, with police knocking on the door and . Sorry? Oh thank you. That's moisturiser, cleansing and that's lotion actually pinch a bit a minute. Thanks Jack Ta. That's what I said, don't close your door a minute. Oh Are you going over the shops? No. I got to go and get some potatoes. Do you want some potatoes? Don't buy any. Just five pounds back off last week. Yeah? and I forgot to leave a note for him today and he's left me another twenty eight pound. Do you want to buy them? How much are they? How much off, off of him? What's twenty eight pound? Dunno. That's half a sack. Well I usually pay one ninety nine for a big sack. What fifty five? Yeah. Well Alright then. Oh flipping heck. I got to get Matt some sweets. Alright. And I got to get some toilet roll. Alright then. Saving me going and get them won't it? Yeah. Cos I ain't got none for tea. Yeah well Alright then. Well I just thought I'd go over now and I might as well go down the shop when I don't bloody want them. I still got bloody about fifty pounds. We gets. We got through a bag in about fivepence so it's not bad. So I got to get another one now for Christmas so Here you are. That'll last you a couple of weeks . Yeah. Well done. I've been meaning to offload those on Give us a fiver and they're yours. I've got to pay for th . I've gotta pay before Friday Yeah. So. That's it. last for a couple of weeks then. Yeah Bloody all me nails splitting. I just washed me car. And I've left a bit. I thought it looked lovely and clean. I've left a bit. I've missed a bit. Oh typical innit? Oh. It is for me anyway. Bloody missing a bit. Oh. But look that's all the black off the car. But look see me nails are splitting like a Oh yeah. Yeah I never bite my nails. No I don't bite mine. I only bite them cos I don't like them long. Alright Cynth? Alright Cynth? twenty quid's worth at her party? Yeah she said. Yeah. I wa a Walkman. Five ninety nine. Well Yeah Geoff wants a Walkman for when he walks the dogs. On the erm door of our kid's classroom, there's a list. Things they want for the Christmas party? Mhm. Yeah like I've put me name down for crisps. You got to put your name in erm Yeah. You got to put your name down against something. Yeah go on I've already done it once. It's probably on the inside the door. Yeah. You got a pen on you? I haven't got a pen. Well bloody Yeah. What's this for then? The Christmas party? For their Chris , for their party. Yeah you got bring like crisps or biscuits or something Oh we never had to do it before have we? No it's a new thing they brought out this term. Oh look. a minute. Ah no. Oh they want helpers for it as well do they? Yeah. When's that? When is it? Eighteenth. Wednesday the eighteenth. Oh I that afternoon. Yeah well yes I would think so. Hello. I'm play and it's about Scrooge. About what? Scrooge. Christmas Carol. What's that? For the Christmas play is it? Yeah Christmas Carol. Ooh. That's alright then innit? Yeah. Hello Karen. Is Nicola allowed tonight? No not tonight cos it's brownies tonight. Okay. Alright? There it is, there look. Oh look how crooked that is. Actually I might put down for a s . I might bring something else as well. One dozen sausages? Is that all they need just one dozen sausages? Yeah yeah well if they bring a dozen and that one brings a dozen and that one brings a dozen. Oh I see. Got to put down for one thing is it? Well I'm gonna put, I'm just gonna put something else on there as well. Can't do fairy cakes. No I can't do fairy cakes. Erm got sausage rolls on the list? Yeah up there look. Now then hang on a minute I've seen, I've seen them Yeah. Erm might as well do that then hadn't I? What are you doing? Crisps. What's that one dozen? six. Packet of six. the teacher. Yes mummy. She is in there. Go and get a pen for us. Can you just not bring a packet of packet of biscuits or something? Fancy biscuits ? I do the food. Are you gonna go up, come and do the food? No. I can't. Not on Wednesdays. Sorry . help prepare the food I'll put a star reserve. It's my shopping day. Hey Alright? There's not many names on there, hardly any on that one. one is it? Cos a lot of people, lot of us don't know about. Is that Luke's is it? Sue, Sue. Got a pen? Er oh dear. Oh hallo. Hallo. No I only want a pen. put on the list. Cheers. Embarrassing. I could do one dozen for them and one dozen Yeah for this one can't I then? I better not put a star on this one though had I cos Well no cos you'll be helping with them anyway won't you? She knows who my son is look. Luke. She's ever so nice though. I like her. Yeah. I don't know, when I used to go swimming with her I didn't I didn't know. You know I Yeah. She was sort of she was sort of erm a bit snobbish. Yeah Do you know what I mean? But she isn't, not really I don't think. No. Not once you get to know her. I gets on great with Yeah . Oh she's funny she is. And when our Nicky found out she was in her class. Oh it was brilliant. Cos I took Nicky in to see her first because our Nicky's one of those that erm takes a long time to get to know anybody? Mm? So I took her in so she could help her help her do something like for a while. Yeah. Er When was that? Eighteenth. Eighteenth. Right must remember that. Won't forget that will I? I'll remind you. Yeah you remind me. Yes I'll remind you. I've had so much on Yeah. in the last month, I just don't know whether I'm coming or going. Alright? Alright Deborah, alright? Right did you get on alright? Did you enjoy it? Yeah he said he liked it. He's coming to watch Sunday. Is he? Don't think he'll get a game but he's coming to watch look. What time? Well erm quarter to six. That alright? Yeah that's alright. Cos his dad has him on a mon on a morning from nine till twelve so Oh does he? Alright. Alright? But erm they was quite impressed anyway. They was impressed by his height more so than anything else. Alright you? That's done my bit now. I thought well they've got sausag . Cynthia Doesn't matter. I shan't speak to her again. I said if I've got to do a dozen sausage rolls for one I'd better do them for the others. She said there's only one, one Do you want some stuff Wendy? Oh right Lisa later on. Is it still there later on? Yeah. Alright then. Oh right. Okay. . And I'm going up to help anyway so. Bye. Bye. They said they'd more likely give you all a bit tom tomorrow. Alright okey dokey. Alright. She ain't got much left have she? She don't have much round there does she? What's that, toys? I'm not particularly interested in going round there I must admit. Those drawing books are good though aren't they? For forty nine pence. Yeah. Do you see those? Yes. I got a couple of books and a tape. I don't want anything No I don't want anything. Hello Claire. Haven't started yet. Alright. I don't, know when you see me just now I was washing the car and I missed a bit. Oh. I got a dirty bit on the back. school today. Alright? She seemed fine. Yeah. Yeah I seen her I know just now. Cos . Come out of school early yesterday cos she was sick. Mm. Mr thought it was cos it was choir practice. Alright. And I it well I don't think so cos she likes choir practice. I said well what did you have for dinner because she ran out after dinner being sick. She said oh we had meat pie so I had extra extra extra helpings. Ooh Yeah but that might not be it might it? No but there again Yeah. wouldn't have helped. She was Yeah I know. sick before because she ate one of the lads didn't fancy theirs. Set her a packed lunch this morning. Can't eat too many of them can she? He's little ain't he? Yeah our dog ate our margarine. During the night. Ate your margarine? Sam that is. Not Jake. Jake never does that. But our Sam does. He always did didn't he? Always have done. You leave it out and he'll have it. But you want to see what Jake's done. He had the saucepan. Got a sauce big saucepan that he has Sam has his food out of because erm Jake's got a big dish. I goes upstairs to go to the toilet, and I've got no carpet anywhere. It's it's just all pulled up. Wh what he does. He does it with a stone that's what, we g we got erm big stones out the back garden. Got big stones out the big garden and he, what he'd to do, put it on the ground and then he like this with his paw, see? Well he must have been doing that with the saucepan, he's pulled all the carpet up. But in our bedroom as well as the hall. cos I want a drink . Oh no. Course I had to rush to come up here haven't had time to sort it out. Has Ann gone down yet? Sorry? Has Ann gone down yet? Mum . Yeah I think she has. Yeah lovely. That's her car. That's her car at the end though innit? Yeah. She usually stands here . But my nails. Look even my bestest one. Oh yeah. They haven't got craft thing in there still have they? I don't know. I bet Luke's got a tall telling off today. Why? Cello's still in the boot. Oh. Forget to get that out of the boot this morning. Oh dear. Here you ought to see puppies. They've started walking round already. Ah! No I don't wanna see them! They've Oh they're . They are so cute. I see one the other day. A white one. Right? Yeah. And erm it hadn't got it's tail docked. They're not No. allowed to do it are they now? Well they done theirs. Certain vets'll do them. Yeah but after this month they're not allowed to do it after November. . Oh I didn't know that then. Bud didn't want them to be done anyway. . She doesn't believe in it. Yeah but it's part of their have a white one if they're all white they got to be put down. Michelle You only just got them. Yeah they're not allowed to now. Dock their tails. Well, seem funny a boxer going around with a tail won't it? Jack would love to see them but I'm not letting him. They are so cute. He'd have one. I mean you say come on then. And they comes up to the edge of the box and they're growling and barking. Yeah, here's Jan now. Cos I got her stuff in my pocket. It wasn't the, the the rose one? That she wanted it was the cocoa butter one and that's the only one I could find. And that one she has cos her . Does it? Yeah I got dry skin . That'll be alright for you. Does Phil use that soap and that Sue? Mm? Does Phil use that soap? Yeah. Does he get on better with it? Is his skin better? It's just a sort an elimination progra erm process really. Yeah. I ain't had to use that stuff in my hair again. Yeah. Haven't had to use that stuff in my hair again and I haven't had dandruff since. Haven't you? I've used it twice. That's alright then. You know how bad I were? I mean look I can even run me fingers through me hair now. You suffered for years with it didn't you? Terrible. I used to What stuff do you put on? Linium Got it from down the chemist. Yeah Yeah? Linium. It was only a little tube at one fifty five? Well sometimes I get it and sometimes I don't. You want to use it, it's brilliant. Stop . Oh That's the only cocoa butter one I had left used little bit. Oh that's alright. It's only for me hands. I Haven't got to put it anywhere personal. Alright? See I remembered look. Thank you ever so much Jack that's lovely. keep forgetting is the soap innit? didn't like the soap Oh no didn't like the soap. It's cocoa butter. Oh. Supposed to have snow the weekend aren't we? Not bloody surprised Bloody looks like it too. I've got enough It do don't it? to open a little shop at home. We do we do raspberry ripple bubble bath. And it's absolutely beautiful. You know when you put soap in and the bubbles go? This don't Well at least your Claire'll wear tights. Nat will not put anything on but ankle socks. Yet before the summer Yeah? it was just long socks. And then it was summer to put ankle socks on she wouldn't take them off then. Yeah. No Claire came out last night she's fallen over and got a hole in them with a pair of woolly tights. And Hayley come out last week with a hole in a pair of bloody tights. Mind you we got our own video when she was about that no she was younger than that. She'd just started school. About this time of year. She had a pair of great tights on. Which is on video. And she kept pulling it and making the hole go. That's what wants for Christmas, a camcorder and he thinks I'm gonna buy him one. I tell you what. They haven't half gone down in price They have haven't they? Yeah. My uncle bought one about ten year ago and all there was about was Betamax then. And he paid over a thousand pounds for it. Yes, cos they yeah, yeah. And yet you have a look at them now. Four cheapest is about four Four ninety five innit? Four seventy five? That's it. You get it about four hundred and thirty. Something like that. Yeah, yeah. But I ain't got four hundred and thirty pounds. When you think then he paid a thousand pound for a betamax one. The same with videos when they first come out wasn't it? They was hundreds and hundreds They've come right down haven't they. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It'll be the same with satellite dishes. Couple of years time Yeah Mm. So cheap. Still. All comes down eventually dunnit? I've thought about next thing they'll do is holograms next. Cos we've got television and video and satellites and that, so it'll have to be hol holograms won't it next? said years ago that you'll be able to get a C B where you've got a camera on it Yeah. so's you can see, and the port radios's now Radio yeah. erm erm phones have it now so you can see who's on the other line. On the other line yeah. Handy in it? You see the picture of it To add to all this secret code ringing and everything. Be handy wouldn't it, that would? Oh You putting There's a list down Sue, on the boards for, on the classroom Sue boards. Oh no you know do you. Done my share. Yeah we done ours. What you in? Six packets of crisps Oh and me! packet of biscuits . But I got two classes. I'm doing a dozen sausage rolls for one and a dozen sausage rolls for the other. And I'm coming to help. Oh are you? I'm not. Ah. But I'm in my element then aren't I? That's what I need. A bit of cheering up. Yeah. I was going out Friday night. I'm going out Thursday night. Saturday night That's the first time and the Saturday after. first time since the op. Is it? Wait for this. I'm going out Saturday night. Got conned into going out Saturday night. Right? And he might be doing guard duty. So I go on me own Oh god. Well I'm going out Thursday night. Alison said oh great you can get drunk. I said no I can't I'm on tablets. First time I go out for a week and I'm on tablets! good excuse good excuse. This Clean the do I go to Friday nights, Cleaneasy do. None of them are taking their husbands see but they're taking friends. So I said to our Deb, come with I? So she said yeah alright then like cos sh she haven't had a night out since she had the baby and they got . Course, she went and told Geoff she was coming and Geoff kicked up then so Geoff and Paul are coming now. But since I said Geoff's coming all the others are taking their husbands now. Ah. I don't, I don't I must admit I don't like going anywhere without Arf. I'd rather him come with me. I'm going to the country club look in Yeah. I'm not allowed anyway. in two weeks' time. So I'm going on me own to that. last time I went out . You did didn't you? You had a lot when you went out with union, weren't it? Yeah. Oh I th , he mi , he likes me going out. Tells me to go without him. home at eleven . Well he even went, Arf lets me go see strippers and everything. Don't mind. Do he? I wouldn't wanna do that anyway? Oh, so funny. Oh I would. I didn't think it was mine. I really didn't think. Oh god it was so funny. I do. Oh next time you go let me know. I want to go and see the Chippendales. It was so funny. That's what I wanna go and see. Did you watch Noel Edmunds show the other day? Ah brilliant. Oh I'd have died. I kept thinking cos I was, wasn't very well Saturday so I was lying on the settee thinking well I hope it ain't me. Don't pick me. I'm alright. I ain't on the phone. watch it in two different rooms. It's embarrassing. I reckon that programme's brilliant. It was better the week before when they had erm Henry Cooper. Oh yeah that was funny. That was He didn't know though did he? didn't twig though did he? It took ages before he twigged. And she in the blinking car She didn't have a clue did she? No, and she had to pay for the petrol. What was it the copper said about going on the Wogan show? And he said, she said in the back , if we get there she said . I liked it the week before when they did that Halloween thing Do you watch that Sue? in the pub. What's that? That Noel's house party. a load of feathers all over his face. Yeah it's good it is. They had a party, party game weren't it? They started off with custard, and had to find an apple in the custard was it? Yeah. Then it was jam and then it was feathers. Dean? I looked in the paper it's not on tonight. It's on Friday. Is that what I got to tape? Yeah I know because it said erm Cos I looked at I can't see it. It's on Saturday 's on innit? Oh no it was Thurs it was Thursday There's there's wrestling on on Friday night. It starts at eight, and it's on till ten and from ten till eleven. It's on for three hours. That'll be alright. Yeah. Is that it? Is that one alright? I'll put it on that one alright. Yeah. That's you buggered up. Did you tape Pretty Woman? Yeah. Right I'll have a borrow of that then. I was watching that yesterday wasn't I when she come to do me hair. three tapes since. Nat watched Nat watched it last night? Yeah. Just sat there with Kate and then suddenly it was erm mum what's hooker? I thought oh god. Arf what's a hooker? Oh, right, yeah. That's erm erm means prostitute. Oh. Kate said I've heard of that can't remember what it is though. Mum what's a prostitute? Arf what's prostitute? You wanna hear what Erm oh that's a hard one that. That's erm erm oh a lady that sells herself . the other, the other day we was on about, Nicola said about oh she goes like that to Luke. I said oh you can't do that otherwise he won't be able to have babies. So Nicola said but he Hallo. doesn't have babies. Women have babies. I said well it comes from a man. So Luke said well what are they like? So I said well they're like little tadpoles. And he went well I can't feel any. And I couldn't help laughing . And do you know what he said? Luke turned round, he said god mummy's laughing. I just creased up. I didn't know where to put myself when he said that. He was literally feeling. He was literally feeling himself. Feeling for his tadpoles. He was literally feeling his whatsits. I mean how do you explain that one away? Oh dear. Yeah. Well they are like little tadpoles aren't they? They didn't ask how they get from a man to a woman not that knows anyway but washing then? Er? erm Look Who's Talking. Look Who's Talking. Yeah. You've got that on tape have you? Yeah Betamax? Yeah got any sweets mummy. No I haven't got no money to get sweets. sweets. I haven't got a penny Nicola. Arf was saying for erm to Nat the other night. He said oh look I got a baby inside me Nat. She said no you can't have babies. Ladies can. Do you know how they get there? Yeah but I ain't telling you. I know. You in the car or walking? You can have a lift if you want. No no I was just asking you. lift. No it's alright my new car if you want. Go on. Have a lift in her new car. Mummy have you got any sweets now? No I haven't. Richard's got to have the cello back. to a party . I got to give you the cello. The what? Well Luke forgot to bring it. It's still in me car but Richard's got to have the cello. Have you done Mrs Neighbour? No I don't know Mrs Nei Neighbour. Right my dear? Oh that's what I would have missed then? What's that? remember rightly. round this house. I just stood on three bits when I come in. There's another bit I missed over there. Where? Over there on the floor. Ah oh. What've I got in here? Oh fuck What mum? What mum? Mm? Just what? He swore. Our mum didn't sound very well did she? Didn't did she? Did, did Harry ans was he there, no he didn't answer the phone when I rang. And she took a long time to answer it. Did she? Yeah. Unless he'd gone out to get her something or other. Oh he'd taken dog out I expect. Hadn't been out since this morning. Oh hadn't she? Now then I need two no I need one. Is there any cards left? one of your Christmas card . One? It's a children's card. Why is it for children? I probably yeah. I probably need two . Right. Nat you gotta have a bath my love it's what twenty five to nine darling. like . Two different ones. That's a lovely. Any Envelope. Any envelopes. Any envelopes with them Nat? Yep. Get you one now. Nat said her envelopes don't stick very well. Don't it? What? Yeah. Do you hear her get off the bed then? Mm. What? Lady jumped off the bed. She heard us come in. cake in the fridge Nat. I bet he don't eat it . I don't know. don't eat a lot of cake do he? He eats all my cake though. Hello Lee Hello. Better get your spellings a minute as well Nat before you go up. Is it? Yeah. Oh I know what I must do as well. Ring my mum and ask what Margaret's address is. Why? aren't you? yeah. I wrote a card for Margaret. Yeah I think I wrote those down. Well I gotta write to inform her. Put it that way. I reckon this week's gone ever so fast. Well it's only Wednesday love. No it's not Thursday tomorrow. Let's have a go at that Nat. And then you go and get your spellings. You can do them before you go up. Please. Tonight. pen? This ain't a pen it's a piece of plastic. Ooh. Now let me try and do it joined up writing like you do it. They's easy to do. Joined up writing. Monday . How do you join up a W then? I dunno. What comes next an E? Went E yeah. Oh I don't know You don't join up a W. You don't join up a W do you no. No. Pardon? How do you join up a W? Yeah well they were supposed to be in flat and then when they're cut it out you supposed, their supposed to turn it over Oh I see. Well. How do you join the W then Arf? Like went? You don't. Mummy you don't join the W . Yeah you do. You do it from the bottom. of the W Oh . E N T. I can't bear do joined up writing. I can. Went out to play with Kate . Is that your story? Wednesday we went to play with Kate. No, it says out with Kate. Out with Kate then. Out to play with Kate. Oh. Let me Hello my little darling and what do you want? He's been fed. Not having nothing else. No you're not. .I thought you'd written all your cards Arf? No about Mum does that look like No. You've got you want W like, not . Yeah. You were saying Arf? No, there's quite a few I'd forgotten there. Is there? Oh not forgotten. I put er yeah I'd forgotten few I'd picked up as well. Mrs . Oh Mrs go to Mrs . That's she, and Mrs down to Mrs , that's she. Now Mrs . What Yeah. Hurry up then love I want you to do spellings. Go and get them then. Ah! Mrs . Have you drunk all that Cinzano have you? Almost. God. I'll get there next week. I bet you can't wait till next week can you? No. Why? Cos he's gonna start drinking. Because he's gonna stop working next week for Christmas. He's not gonna work . week off. I'm gonna allow myself plenty of excuses if everybody's turning, gonna turn up who says they're going to. Well how many How many have you asked then? Oh. Hundreds Have you? Who? for Christmas Oh I don't know. . Forgotten. Now then. Mrs erm so. If we get them all in a row, we could do that one ah. Is that how you spell with? No. Yeah W I, no T H love. Oh my god now Oh yeah well you ought to ask, you ought to know how to spell with. You've done it on your spellings. I know. You'd have had that one wrong if you'd done that. Alright. Can't find a way to . Is this a note in your bag? Yes. Well thank you for telling me then Nat. Here I want you to take those felt tips and that up as well Nat. You leaves everything downstairs. Mrs . Oh. Oh shit I've another one to take out now. Anita Come on then Nat. You gonna do this? How do you spell friend. Oh I know. E I. Yeah? Are you sure? Friend. F R I E N D R I E N D. Come on then Nat. Alright I'm doing it mum. Right. What is it. One day Dale went to play with her friend. Yeah. I'm gonna write more. No you're not because you're gonna do this. Cos you need to have a bath and bed. that? Now then erm you wouldn't know erm Caroline brother's name would you? No. Haven't got a clue. Oh well. Mr and Mrs eh? Do you do what did you do her brother do you? Up California Road? Mm. Do you? Oh with all the trimmings up? We just started last . Started last month yeah. Ah. Mm. Yeah . Went up them, they. T H E Y Them. No wait wait wait. Nat! Them. Then. T H E M. Them. T H E M Oh shit. B's. T H E M E There. T H E R E With. W I T H Thank you. F No. Not fank you. Hm. Sounds like thank you . Yeah, she . It's not fank you, it's thank you. Thank you. T H A N K line Y O U. Something. S O M E T H I N G Thirty. T H E No. T H A? No. What O? No. Thirty. U? Tut. Mum I T H I Ah. T H, T H I T R. R erm T Y? Yes. What was it again? Erm T H I R T Y Good. Thousand. Thousand. F No! Thousand. T H I can't hear you. T H A No. O Oh . O U S A N D Well done love. Through. T H erm O No. R Yeah. O U what one is it, through? Yeah. G Yeah. H. H. What was it again? Oh erm T H R O U G H Right. Thought. T H O? Mm. U Mm Oh shit. L? No. Thought. Oh yes. T H T That's it. Good girl. There I wrote them all down. I know I could see you writing them anyway. But at least you're spelling them. Well you know you're writing them down aren't you? Yeah. You're still sp , that's what you gotta do in school. You've gotta write them down. Tell me some of them and Right. Let's do the ones you weren't very good at. Thirty you're not very good at. Yeah. No just give thirty now. Tell me then. T H no let me write it down. I Yeah. R Yeah T Yeah Y Good girl. T H I R T Y Right. Through. Oh Yeah well that's the ones you're not very good at. Oh. No. come back. Please. I want to copy it. T H O No. R Yeah. O Yeah U Yeah G Yeah H Good girl. And thought. T H O Yeah U Yeah G Yeah H Yeah T That's it. Good girl Nat. They're the same. Nearly the same. Yeah but it hasn't got a T on the end with an R in. Yeah hasn't got the R in, yeah. T and R. Right, what else? Thousand. Try thousand. Where is it? What love? Me pen? Oh there it is. What one was it again? Thousand. T H A No. Listen, in all the spellings you've got here, there is none A. So don't bother writing an A in any of them, cos there isn't an A in any of them. Is in thousand. There isn't. Oh there is, yeah. Bloody had you look! Ha ha ha. So there Nat. There is in sand. Sorry Nat. Yeah well I meant at the beginning of them alright? T H R? No. T H O U. Come on you had it right just then. Oh yeah. T H O U is it S? A N D. That's it. What else? Something? Yeah go on then. S O M E T H I And there's an A in thank you as well isn't there? What? And thank you's got an A in as well hasn't it? Yes. Where's thank you? I should have thought it was at the bottom Oh I ain't got a thank you on here. I got something not thank you. Right next? With. Oh. W I T What the bloody hell have we got those two over there for. H. What one next? Fair. Come on then you gotta have a bath love. Well look at that. That's supposed to be California Road. Never. You haven't done them all have you? It doesn't, no, it doesn't, those two that's all. What Arthur? What did you do wrong? I put the wrong addresses on darling. Oh. Oh and another one. Three new people that have just started with me recently. Perhaps you'd put cos that's what you done today? That's what you've been cleaning today. Tut. What a pillock. Erm no I did have more than that. Have you dropped some or Can you tell me You can do any one cos you're going to have a bath now. Going to bed. T H E R E. There. now. Yeah I thought you had. One two three four five. I can't help you Arf cos I ain't got a clue. Mrs Oh oh oh oh Mrs Could you pick your stuff up then Natalie my love. Yes. Then we've got Mrs That can go upstairs, and that one can go upstairs. That's Arf's. Do you want that love? Yeah? Yeah. Did you write it in the book or nothing? No. Gail's giving it up. And smoking I'm gonna Have you? I haven't hardly had no fags today. I've had two. Oh Nat Nat Nat I know it's still fags. I know it's still fags. Nat, don't believe her Nat. She's such a liar. You are. I ain't. I Have you still got that Have you still got that horrible on your hand? Yeah. Come here. Nat. She's smoked over forty today love. No she got , she got her thumb in her mouth look. Oh well. In that case I bet she'll go up to bed now and she'll suck it. If I can't see her. We can't er we can't give up smoking if you're gonna keep on sucking your thumb. Sorry. Yeah. We'll put that in the fridge. I bought you a nice little savoury egg. And erm No I thought I'd you know I thought to myself Yeah cos Matt said for me to come in. I thought well I don't wanna go giving it to you two as well you know. she said to me the other day, has my mummy been in? And I said well I was told she was ill so I said I won't ring her up then but I was thinking of ringing you up but will you be alright hopefully for next Friday? Next Friday is it? Yeah. That's erm my new Your new number? Oh. Yeah that's the account and that's the sort, I don't know if you wanted the sort code as well. Alright? when I've got the time. Right. And so she come back here. Rang her . Super . And erm got through to the treasury and goodness knows else and they said erm she gotta open a separate bank account of her own. joint bank account. Mine's a joint one. Was it, does it matter? Well no Oh no. Oh I was gonna say. No . And then Sue tell her to go to the giro place. And then do that for a fortnight so she still didn't have any money. And then erm erm she was all set to go out shopping you know what with Yeah. she couldn't go. And then Monday, what happened Monday? Started ringing up again to see if sort it out. Rang up the treasury again. Said I can guarantee that you'll have it in a week or so said that she got to have it Yeah. one way or the other. And rang her up . yeah we put it in the Leeds for, well they said they won't give you any money because Leeds haven't sent the cheque back. It were awful. It's not on is it? would you be half past Yeah next Friday. hopefully we can have our dinner. yeah. How's Pauline getting on, alright? Yeah, she's alright. Yeah. Yes. She's had a lot to put up with. This funny business Yeah hearts and flowers. It's a wonder she's sane innit really? Yeah. She's good as gold she is. She's so funny. She's so well we wind her up. Cos she's so, sometimes she's so slow. She's you know she don't get what you're on about for a minute. It takes a minute to sink in like. Sue and Bert come in on the Friday whenever and then open an account Yeah. So Sue and Bert come in the other day and she I know. So after dinner I said and she rang the Leeds and they said the cheque comes back here. But wh , my argument why they didn't cancel that cheque that cheque yeah. Oh no they couldn't do anything like that. So anyway she come off the phone there and I could see she was really Yeah and she said I oh she said I no more she said, I get tongue-tied so I thought well I'm gonna have a go at them myself so I had a go at them. And I said to them, here I said, her husband I said handles money and I said he knows what he's on about. I said he didn't But I I thought I had to sort of do something. And I said the Leeds have told her I said that it was you know something might come this afternoon. And she few days. Yeah. What about I said this number. Oh he said it was the wrong number he said erm and Mrs erm have have agreed to it. So I said well you tell me the number. I said you, I said I got the number, he said you've got the number? I said I've got the number in front of me. I said she was paid on a temporary form for the week Wouldn't read it. Yeah and you read the number to me I said to see if I've got it right. Yeah. and he said erm oh he said it was a digit round the wrong way. Tut. There was two digits round the wrong way. It made I mad but whether anything like that, you know. And I said to him I said sh , I said this is six weeks. Oh he said I said it's six weeks' that she's been here. Yeah. Oh he said well I haven't been handling it for six weeks I said . And erm he rang her up and it was in the bank, it was literally in the bank yesterday morning Yeah. so something, something was done quick then see Yeah. but my argument was why couldn't they have done that last Friday? Yeah. They could have done it last Friday put up with mind Yeah, you know. I said to him I said . I mean you should be paid Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I said to him I said. Just remember I said I shall get the stick for this. I mean, you know Yeah, yeah Right you gonna have a coffee Gail? Yeah go on then. Yeah. You all ready for Christmas, or no? No. No I'm getting there. I got ev , all, all me food. You haven't? Yeah. Except for me fruit and me Yeah? yeah all I gotta get is my fruit and veg. Oh dear Got me nuts. Got everything. Oh Gail! We'll send her out with a list then. Yeah. And the drink I got to go and get as well. Ah dear, dear. Yeah. You been up to Up erm ? Yeah. Yeah. What's it like? Erm the week I went it was quite quiet. There wasn't many people up there. But there's a few th , I got a few, few little things there. It's bit, you know handier than going all the way down like you know? Yeah. So I'm going again tomorrow with Alison.. I that was lovely up there. Was it? I didn't, I didn't get any meat but That Pauline said she bought something got a Bet you've lost a bit of weight haven't you? What? Erm I I haven't I haven't gained any weight. But I, I thought I would cos being in bed. Arthur was just kept bringing me up food all the time. I'm just lying there eating it. Oh you you you But I haven't put on any weight, so so that's one thing. Yeah. Lemon meringue today. Oh shut up. Oh Will it be easier er next Friday seeing how you haven't got to do the staff? Well I should think so. Should be, yeah. Oh I was thinking Maureen what about them nursery teachers. Are they coming? Are their names down there? You gotta do anything for the kids parties this year or no? Cos I think all the mothers are bringing it Yeah, yeah. Did they ask the mums? If they would do it or something? Well, unless I never heard, I don't know but erm I went down to take Natalie in on a morning, and there's just a list on the door. And you gotta put your name where you can take Oh. you can take crisps in or sausages. Yeah, yeah. I gotta go for another Christmas meal on next, next Friday. So I shall have two. Oh. Erm Down in Downend there's a pub called The Folly? Oh yeah. And two friends are, we're all going out for a a Christmas meal like, so That's alright. Shall have two Friday Er last night Arthur said oh said I think I'll work extra tomorrow he said and I'll take you out for Sunday lunch Sunday. So we're going out Sunday so that's the new Sunday lunch era. Oh that's ever so nice. Mm. And it breaks the day up. I hate Sundays. Yeah I hate Sundays. And I do. Well I don't but I enjoy going out Yeah. for lunch. Yeah. I've never done that. Well not last week but the week before we went up the Harvester. you know but erm I, I would like that. that's lovely. My mum goes out every Sunday for lunch. She don't never she never stays in. Yeah. Yeah I think lot's of people do. It don't cost so much for a Sunday dinner . No. What she said. No quite cheap That's it. I reckon they do it when Do you that Lisa next door to ? Next door to you? Don't know a Lisa. Oh that's alright then. One what hurt her leg? No? Has she hurt her leg? Was that Mrs erm I don't know. Is she like a teenager. She was she was on crutches is that her? Yeah I don't I don't know her. Why what had she done did you know? Or No I just wondered you know. Seemed such a mystery about it all. She seems to be staying with that girl that lives up in erm . Yeah she walks up with her a lot don't she? Yeah. I don't know Yeah it was that girl that erm that's why it's so strange. She accused Mr of interfering with her. He got arrested and everything. Never! And then she with withdrew the statement. And now living there or something. Living there. It seems very strange. Ooh. Yeah, Arthur cleans her windows doesn't he? Yeah. I don't know her. There's a biscuit in there Gail. No, it's alright. No eleven o'clock I'm usually starving. have a roll . That's nice salad then. I can't, I can't wait till can't wait till Christmas cos I don't stop eating. I'm eating all Don't you? From the time I get up, open our stockings eat the chocolate out of it. Till the time we go to bed. She always Oh I love it. Yeah. Well. She wanted a mountain bike. Well she wants a mountain bike but we didn't know what to do. Anyway, her dad bought her one. Oh. So we don't have to buy that. Er he's bought, he's bought her two other things which we were gonna get her so we don't have to buy her those either. Ooh. So erm I got her roller boots. I'm gonna get her a dolly which you push his left arm and his, he cries and he's teeth grow or something . She wants that. Erm I got her a couple of games. I didn't really know what to get her. Cos You don't do you? No. can't afford a lot but you know. bit of a difficult age now. Yeah. That's it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah she got her prams and her bicycles. Yeah, yeah. That's right. That's it. She wanted a new pushchair but to me she, she's too big for it. You know the pushchair's sort of so small up to her. I know, yeah. For her now, yeah. Yeah. Mind it's good how some girls are sort of stay like it Yeah. Like she loves her Cindy's. I got her a couple of Cindy things and that. Yeah. She loves her Cindy's. Or Barbie's whatever they are. I got her I got one of them dogs. Oh no. What goes Yeah that's what Nat wants. . I thought oh god. I said know you don't want that, you don't want that. Yeah. I didn't know what to buy her. And she kept on and on and on. So that's what Yeah she wants Go Go, the white one. Oh I don't know. This one's white and bit Brown and white yours yeah. Yeah. She wants just the plain white one? I said oh you're not having that. Oh. How can you be so cruel? . The funny thing was, her dad said to her right you've spent a lot of money. He goes I spent a lot of money on you this year Nat. Cos last year he wasn't working and he didn't spend a lot on her. He said ooh about two hundred pound. Well my sister's dog boxer hadn't long had puppies? Well they're three weeks old and she's selling them for two hundred and fifty pounds. So Nat thought ooh dad's spent two hundred pound. He's getting me one of Bud's puppies. I'm having a puppy, I'm having a boxer. I said you're not. You're not having a dog. You're not having a dog . She really thought she was gonna have a dog like, you know. Ah. Said no, you're not having a dog. That's when she said I'll have Go Go instead then. I reckon that's what my friend will have, a dog. She moved like into a house, you know. Well yeah. She might have one now And I bought Cassie er a you know to go with Yeah. Most of the family have got erm Nat games. Cos I didn't know what you know our mum got her a couple of games. Yeah, yeah. And erm a mirror to go in her bedroom. Cos she, she bought her this clock once to go in her bedroom. Anyway she managed she get a mirror the same. So she's got her that as well. Cos really for Nat, with Christmas she's lucky cos she gets two lots of Yeah she does. Cos off of Nick's mum as well look. So Yeah yeah she's, she got like two, two er families like. Yeah. Yeah isn't she? She was ever so good when I was bad. She was. Yeah she sent me up to bed. Cos I come in on the Friday after I picked her up from school. And I just cried. I'd had enough, you know. Yeah. Ah. So Arf rang the doctor and then Natalie said come on mum up to bed, up to bed. Ah. And she was up there playing cards with me and that. And she got herself ready for bed and you know just went to bed by herself. And she very rarely does that. You know, usually I got to go in and tuck her in and that. Just shows that she can do it Yeah. It's harder when Mm. Just, and I couldn't really say say where I hurt. I hurt all over. You know it was ooh. I was Those table-mats are lovely Gail. Are they? I mean . But they're ever so good. They're really good Quality, yeah. Sometimes But I think it's, you pay for what you, you know you have, pay for what you get now. Yeah. What you get. Yeah. Did you get your ? Yes. Wrapped them up for Nat. Who's that? Who's that I can hear? Oh it's Auntie Oh? Erm I've stopped her going as well. Going where? Over the chemist. I was only popping over chemist to get a bloody Do you want Bud to go? Do I want to go? in a minute. What's the matter sweetheart? Oh I forgot. Tut. Oh sweets. I always buy him some sweets. I forgot. I'm sorry. That's it Gail. You've had it now. Yeah. I know I forgot. Got to give mummy, money some mummy. Mummy some money. Yeah I forgot haven't paid it in yet. Alright then Yes I'm alright. Thankyou. Good. Except for my chest's killing me. Suppose I'm gonna have to ring up again. Yeah. Did it get better? No. Did it get better when you was in bed? It yeah A bit. Can't stay in bed can you? No. oh it hurt so much, all down here. You wanna give up smoking. Well I've only had two this morning. I'm not nowhere near as what I smoke I can't cos it hurts. You're gonna have to go back. Perhaps you need some of that Yeah cos he said it's all . I mean he give me antibiotics but that hasn't done nothing. Well you want to tell him that Yeah. When was that? That was last week wasn't it? Last Sunday? Yeah last Friday. It should be in you by now Gail . Yeah well I've finished them now. And it still hurts? Yeah. Hurt when you breathe Yeah. or when you straighten? When I breathe. Like in my heart, everything. All all here like. What's the matter Dan? He ain't very happy at all. I think he's bored. What's the matter? Where's your shoe? Your shoe's down there. I've gotta go and get Nat some shoes tonight after school. She got corns. Oh she hasn't. Oh they hurt. Yeah. One on each foot. I've been saying to her well you'll have to wait she's been saying her feet hurt, right? And you think oh She only had them in bloody September like. I said you can wait till after Christmas and then you can have some. Well last night I thought oh I'd better cut her toenails cos I hadn't done them for weeks like. I said oh Christ. She got one that's, on one foot like. That's the big toe Yeah. right, and it's on that one there, in between. Yeah. And on the other one it's on the big toe there. She's had them growing look. Yeah, that's what Arf said. So I'm just hoping those roller boots are gonna fit her now. Well. Yeah but you got a bigger size. Yeah. Got a one didn't I? Yeah. But I took the insole out put her foot on the insole and her foot goes over the top of it. Oh no. That's like Neil mind, with boots. So I didn't know what to do. when you get if you get hers now today. Go up tomorrow Yeah. and change them to a bigger size Size, yeah. Alison said even if you get a two they're gonna, you know bigger is better than got a one cos it was bigger than what she wears. Yeah. Dan! What's the matter? Yes. You wanna get her feet measured. If they say she's a one And I'll have to get a two look, cos she was a thirteen and a half so I bought a one. Yeah. Cos they're like trainers aren't they, roller boots? Yeah. The ones I got her. Our Neil's got bigger feet than her and then he's a one, he's in a one already but he's gotta have a two in bumper boots. Yeah she has, thirteen and a half. Yeah. But she's so wide. One of them's over a G Yeah. It's like with our Neil's is right up to C. Yeah, so course she said with the girls shoes they're slimmer look. They're hard to do them. So I thought narrow foot yeah it's like you don't have to sort of ones our Adie got is the best Yeah I got . I could get him a chain to go on his St Christopher. I got Nat's blinking camera in here. Why? I bought her a cam . Cos I wanna get some flashes but I forgot. Yeah I thought if I come down here What matter? One year new chain and I had it in that little on the tree? Mm? And he didn't know it was in there look. Ah. We've had it in the cupboard for years. turned the cupboard out. I thought oh I'll get him We got our Adie a chain, and earrings for Christmas. Yeah I got that Well keep it I don't You sure? I forgot you had it. Oh alright then. I can keep it, it's been there since Just keep it Well put it somewhere a bit safer than that. Oh Ooh. ooh Oh last night Arf Did he write on the wall? Oh. They're mad. Oh Dan! Done that. Like that but Can't you go over it with a bit of pink? Yes. Or I'll try and get it off first and then go over it. Gail you don't look very well. I'm just, I'm just fed up with it hurting. I really am. I'm going out tonight so I'm trying to be well today. You coming next Friday? Yep. Yeah. . Well you said Friday I gotta work alright? I gotta, no I gotta work up the school Friday. That's another Christmas dinner I'm having so that'll be two. no Ah Dan Oh Daniel! Put the top on. Perhaps he's a frustrated artist. Yeah that's alright Friday. Good. Sorry? Sorry Bud. Didn't give you a light. Oh well. It's nice innit? Mm. That'd suit me seeing that 's black more than navy blue. Yeah Black. That'd fit me as well Yeah I said to Carolyn you won't get your chest in that bloody bl blouse . Carolyn borrowed it has she? Yeah. She wants it she was gonna borrow it after our do Yeah but her do's moved forward so she said I'll have to borrow it before you Who wants I er I knew Yeah. And and when I rang her she said yeah bring the card over in the morning if you like. Mhm. alright then she'd put the card morning. I says I think she's a right bitch. Makes you feel like saying oh fuck it. Yeah. My daughter's asleep innit . Trace, whatever's a going on here? What? She's having like a little party. But bought her a telly so she's not having too many. So she said well I'm not telling you what I'm buying you. She said but you can have someone to sleep if you want. Next Friday night you say? Oh, tomorrow night. Dan. What's the matter, it's not like you to be crying. He's been like this since I come in. Has he? I don't think its me. I haven't done nothing to him. Come and stand on my feet like we do's. Come on. I think he was ready to go out look. Come and stand on my feet like we do. Come on. Come and stand on my feet and we walk round. Oh, why? Come on then. Well let's show Tracy. Let's show Tracy. Stand on my feet. Come on then. Come on. Come on. steady. Up on my feet. Up on your feet. . Come on then, get on them. Get on. Get on. No? What do you want then? Nothing in there darling. All gone. Ah. Ah. Ah. Nothing in there. Oh what's that? Bit of cake. You don't like cake. You don't like cake though do you? No. no no no no no. Do you want some? Do you? Yeah. Give me a kiss then. Oh what're you doing? All gone. You can play with that if you like. Bud do you want a bit of cake? Do you like Gail? That's Diana Ross isn't it? Yeah. Want the box Bud? Oh no it's Good boy. Hang on Danny. There you go. Put it in. she said fill that water up And leave it in there, yeah. Two fell in it last Oh no. I took out at night. Which one? What do you want then? Hey? Ah Dan ain't got no juice. Ah. Who's that coming in? Hark at her. Hello Cas. Look, this is what I do for And I don't only try it on the Do you iron it? Don't know what he's doing but he's Yes. Like er I've I've had it for a week. I've had antibiotics but they haven't done nothing. Yeah I know. We're all the same. Come on then. We're going out now. Get your shoes on. Just go and lock me car a minute. Right I'm going down Come on then Trace. Go and lock me car. I was gonna do look in that did you say you looked in that Argos book for darts did you, or? Yeah there was about three sets in there and they ranged from about seven ninety nine up I think. Yeah how do you know what, heavy they are like? Well the heavier the better really. Let's have a look. flunter Yeah what's er name flunter? I don't know what What it is, it was a duke When our Scott I had it. I said it's for when you've got a blunt dart and you sharpen it. Well he, if anything goes like blunt he calls it flunt. Oh So he said oh you've got have flunter. Course I went in and said that to all of them in there and they thought it was really funny. So they Yeah Reg's have got order it or something, that's what that Alison said. They don't take very long to come. About, well not long. That's the, that's the I got Oh you got that one? Yeah. Well I got Eric, that's what you played with last night, them there. That is them is it? Yeah, that's mine. And they're a tenner look. With the case. Oh well that'll do. And all that. Well you better have a flunter with them, number five. Twenty six so that's a bit heavier so that'll probably be better. You'll get tungsten precision darts engineered nickel tungsten darts with one extra set of shafts. flights and key-ring dart sharpener . So you get all that. I'm not keen on the blobby bit at the end though. What there? Yeah. To me that's thick innit? As though you're trying Yeah. I'd rather have the thinner ones. What them there? Yeah. Go for them, that's exactly the same as mine. Eric Bristow ones, yeah. They're like, they look similar to Carol's don't they? Yeah. They might very well be. I don't know what hers are. No, what was it? John Farmer's ones or something. But they're a little bit heavier them there. Yeah. But I'd go for that if I was you. Yeah. How much is a dart board , just for curiosity? You got a fourteen ninety nine, nineteen ninety nine. That's those sort of top over things innit? Yeah. And the complete lot dartboard, dart set. Bristle look, paper dartboard. In cabinet and blackboard. Inside doors includes two sets of brass darts, dart sharpener, chalk, duster and P V C mat with oche markings, nineteen ninety nine . Never. For all that? It's cheap innit? Yeah. Reckon they're for the kids really aren't they? Mm. That's alright then? Mm. Innit? Yeah. But that's a nice scoreboard there, how much is that one? That's what I'll probably get when I get the garage like that. Yeah. And I've got a dart board. You've got one have you? Yeah. Compliments of the Nag on Christmas. Oh yeah I remember. And that's the bag. There, I was gonna get Scott that one there. Nine ninety nine. Well it's alright innit? That's similar to what you got Nat is it? Yeah. But its not a great big thing like that. No. It's only a little one. I don't think that's that big though cos thats his shoulder there look. It's only Oh yeah. Well it might be Yeah that sort of thing with two pockets on and a clip going over. Yeah. Arf said to me last night oh done all the chris , got everybody's now then. I said no, I ain't got Natalie's, why not? I said oh I don't know. What're you gonna get her? Dunno. You got her boots. Yeah. What else? You got her loads of stuff. I haven't. Not a main present like. You have. Her boots was thirty quid weren't they? No. Twenty. I got her boots, I got her Oh Pen , and Oh Penny erm stable Mm. listen to this Erm two video tapes, two ponies. Erm Set of clothes haven't you? Two sets of clothes. Got her shell suit and ski pants and jumper. Socks which I got, I got them off Lisa, she ain't given me they yet. Well they're up there, it's up there. Yeah actually I could have had that the other day if I'd have thought but I didn't bother. Erm Got her a camera. Erm. Did I show you it? Her little camera You said something about it had a no you haven't shown me but you did tell me about it. I got her flashies I bought her a flashies. How much was it Gail? Two ninety nine. That ain't bad is it? For kids. That's what I'd like, a new camera Gail. I said that's what I bought her crayons and a brolly That's what I'd like, a new new camera. I wouldn't mind an Olympus Trip or Sports. Yeah Something like that. It was three ninety nine . Oh look. Ninety p. That's not bad, I thought that was quite good. Oh that's ideal isn't it cos she have a packed lunch don't she, at school? And even if, that's for everything. Ninety p. That ain't bad is it? stocking. That's ideal cos with what he do's. Yeah. Innit. It got a stop watch on it have it? Well I think that's just for your, you know, you your seconds, you push them don't you? Push it twice. Mm it looks like there's a stopwatch on it somewhere. Nice. Alright for ninety p innit? Alright to go in his stocking. Right well it was three ninety nine, not two ninety nine this. But I thought it was quite good, an extra present innit? Cos she got, I bought the flashies, yesterday. Mm. And there's your little album. What you got all that for that money? Yeah. If you give that to somebody for a present, it looks a lot dunnit? Yeah. And a album and a film. It's alright though isn't he? Mm. She'll like that. Cos it's a bit like mine, you know mine's Yeah. got a flash and that in it but and I thought well her own pictures she takes Christmas Yes. she can put in there herself. So that's why I bought the flashies. Scott photograph album. Does he? Yeah. I took, yeah, he, I got him one couple of years ago. Cos I took some photographs of Sammy, he got a picture of Sammy in there, picture of Nat. Picture of Dean. All his little mates in it. Mates, yeah. But I, I wouldn't mind a new camera. I'd like an, either an Olympus or Yeah Steve got an Olympus and erm They good? Yeah. it's so easy. Anything like this? Yes. That's what they've got. You know auto shutter. with automatic focus on them Yeah and our mum got one of them. And they takes lovely photos. Yeah I know. Or a Canon Sureshot something like that. Yeah I can't remember what else I got Nat. Yeah I though, with all what you been saying I thought you had, you got her a Barbie stuff haven't you? No. Nick's mum got her all the Barbie stuff. Oh. But you got her a bike and that? Oh I got her a chocolate factory game. Yeah. L monopoly haven't you? No. Our ma's getting her that. Oh. Oh perhaps you've been saying what other Saying what other getting yeah. So what're you gonna get her then? Well I'm gonna get her Mousetrap. Yeah. And Yeah but you're still not getting her a main thing are you? If that's what you're saying you're missing or What I could probably get her is erm that dolly just Oh yeah. That's what you were saying. With the teeth. He's up the market isn't he? I don't know. It's dearer in here what it is in Toys R Us. Yeah I know it is. And it's dearer in there than what it is John Lewis. Is it? Yeah. I tell you what that, I bought Scott's Playmobile pirate ship. That was thirty four pound out Toys R Us right? Yeah. And er in John Lewis it was twenty nine. Never. Yeah. An , Anything like with a brand name on it. Yeah. Like her Lego, Playmobile Etchasketches. Anything like that is always cheaper in John Lewis Is it? cos they got a price promise haven't they? Of course they have, yeah. And it was ever so cheap Gail. Couldn't get over it. I don't think there's any here. What? Yeah it is. That dolly with the teeth Is it? yeah, it's in the front there. Oh. Baby first something or other isn't it? Yeah. Baby first teeth or something. Baby first teeth I don't know. I can't find it in there. Thought it was in there. I'm sure I seen it, or was it, less it was only club book I seen it in. Well no, I seen it in there cos I have checked the prices with that and Toys R Us one. But it was cheaper in the Toys R Us one. And Laura's I gotta get, I haven't got Laura's yet. What are you gonna get she? Oh well I've got to get her the . Oh. I've got You wanna see her with her glasses on. She's so cute. There it is in there look. Baby's First Teeth. Thirty four eighty seven. Get her that then Gail. I wants a Oh I got her a lovely cute little teddy. Who Nat? Nat. I've wrapped it up now though. Little bulldog. Have you? Yeah. How big? Little one. Ah. Down the market. Two ninety nine. What that No it wasn't that one, erm Eastville it was. I wrapped it up or you could have seen it. Think going over Eastville. Is it a real to park. Well no, not if you go in erm I parks in . Do you fancy going down there? Oh I don't mind. Yeah. I'll have to go up our Sam's first and whinge a bit of money out of her. Oh that's alright. She owes Alan a . Yeah, why not. I gotta, I gotta do I must make a bed. What time we gonna go then? Well whenever you're well I wanna clean that oven. That cooker. So shall we have a bit of tidy round here, say if we go in about hour? Yeah, alright. Hour, hour and a half. Say about half ten eleven. Cos we got all day haven't we? Yeah. Really. Well I gotta be back for you gotta help down the school. Two yeah. But I mean And I gotta be back for three. Yeah. Why have you gotta be home for three? Oh. Yeah, alright then. That'll be enough won't it? Yeah. Cos if we get there see car. Whose car? Oh I, no I might be able to go in mine. I'll just see because I If mine's thawed out. well and yours is the same look No and mine's the same but mind the sun don't get on mine. But what I'm more worried about is is Alan's gonna go and have his hair cut. Cos his hair's got so long, it's longer than mine. Yeah. Go in mine. I don't mind. But if he, otherwise I could take mine. I don't mi . I mean I'm not worried about taking it but it's just it's just Well I'm not worried. Oh I'm not worried about taking mine. Like you say by the time the sun comes round ? Yeah. Should be alright shouldn't it? Well should be alright yeah. Perhaps I don't like let the sun get on it. I think, bet it's on there now in a minute innit? I've got lunch on. Oh I done mine. Right, I'll see you in a minute Gail. Yeah, alright then. See you later. Yeah, bye. Bye. Ta ta. sun ain't on it yet Gail. No I didn't think it was. See you in a minute. Eh? See you in a minute. Yeah alright. Bye. And don't talk stupid because it's for a it's for a special project. What? That they're collecting all different types of speech together. Oh right. So I'm allowed to record you. Okay? Yes. Good. Look you're cleaning this with erm That box. This. With this. And this. And this. And this. And this. Whoops! Bugger! All those. Let's have a look. Now this one, if yo , you can work out how it works, cos I can't work out how to get that antiperspirant to go on your body. It's a bit stupid. Like that. What did you do? Just push it up the bum. Well I couldn't work out how to do that! Oh oh. What have you done now? I pushed it right out. Push it, when you want it, just push it up there Yeah. so it comes out. And I was trying like, I was going like that for ages. Push it like that. Oh don't, oh don't waste it. Look at the state of your hands! What's wrong with them? Beautiful! They're beautiful! They are beautiful! You could do nail varnish commercials with hands like that, you really could. I really need to don't I? Anna works on a farm and in her spare time paints her nails! A shocking red colour. What's this then, bubble bath? Well read the bottle and it'll tell you? It doesn't say. Oh it's shower gel that one. It fell off when I was in the pool. This is shower Ooh! gel. This is shower gel. Oh no, they're both shower gels. That came with the last lot that I got. And that one came with this It smells nice. one. But when when erm when I unwrapped it, cos it had a bottle a , that big bottle with it as well, that little bot , where's the little bottle? Had a what bottle with it? It had a big bottle of Georgio with it. Oh right. And that little bottle was still half empty, and all the tissue paper inside really smelt heavily of perfume like it had leaked already. Oh oh. Well maybe it had gone . Oh dear. You never know. So you never know really. Oh. I was gonna get you a blow up Mr Blobby for Christmas Were you? as a joke. Yeah. Oh I'd like that. Tt. I'd find so many uses for it. Don't be stupid! I would have done. Yeah alright then. Ha ha ha! Will Mark want Christmas from me? No. A bit early to be thinking about Christmas isn't it? No it's not , it's only about eight weeks away. Yeah, but eight weeks is a long time. No it's not. Not the way my Yeah , I don't think yo , you don't have to go round and buy everybody's present out of that catalogue. I'm not. No, they're the only two things I'm getting out of there. Is it? Yeah. I'm not getting anything else. It's all kiddies stuff other than those. Oh. So I don't know what else to get. Erm I dunno, let me have a think. Yeah, well if you know There's probably if you know of a tape he wants or anything, then Yeah. I hope you can get it and I'll Right. give you the money for it. Okay then. And then you can borrow money out the bank again. Yeah. Well yeah. Yeah. Good one. It's a bit dubious voting for people that you No I can't. could be anyone. Clare's done my back with Clearasil. No. Is it itchy? Yeah. Well look at it. . You can't see anything from there Mark, you've got the Er Carole, can you sign this loan application, there's a blank application form here. Mm, it is bad lately. You wanna put some erm You wanna make sure you wash it properly. Some A loofah! I've got you a lo , You've got a back cleaner here. Yeah , I've got you loofah. Just do it Carole. Is that to take out? Oh! There's your keys. Oh great! Find a, oh. Hello. Oh yes, I meant to ring you last night, but things Sorry you're a bit late. overtook me really. Nigel and Doug. Broken his arm. Oh right. Yes,. I bet you were planning on your twenty . No I'm not . You won't frighten me with telling me Yeah cos, my mates were telling me the other day what's Gilly said? Who? Marcus . Marcus? Yeah. I know he's I'll sort him out! my little Course he won't! Very He'll bore them rigid! very , very new. Yeah, but he'll he'll bore them to death. He'll actually bore them for me. Hundred million crap jokes ! Yeah, I'll give him a try. Can he stay there? And once you make the joke, and I always tell jokes that make them laugh. Where's the delivery? See, that's a joke . Oh oh. I presume David's there next week. Who's that? He goes here there and everywhere. Marvellous! Oh well David's not like that, he's well Mark's just had a bit of luck he's just . That's three thousand pounds for a I know. new suite to be cleaned. Just er, I shall spend it. Mm. You'll do what? No I've given up on him. You must get, you must hear that new song it's really good. He's not had a chance yet. No. David Jensen's playing like it's going out of fashion ! Does David want ? What's the matter? Nothing. Oh. No that's fine. What? No, no, he's, he's alright. They got . Is the tape running? Yeah. Sorry? Doesn't go very far though does it? Oh I hope so . No. I'm fed up with it. Sorry? What colour? It's a mixture of colours. Erm it's sort of like lines, you have a bit like paint, you know that sort of erm it's like paint brush stripes. You know, and there's just short little, like brush marks. Do you know Mm mm. you have wallpaper like it sometimes. Oh well, very trendy? It's a bit like, it's the same sort of idea as that sleeping bag you've got, you know, little short dashes of paint Mm. of colour. Oh I see. And erm it's We don't have to whisper, they're not listening . But it's a bit erm Was it expensive? About er,ne , nearer two thousand than, than a thousand. Well these garish things always are. I mean, for that I could have, do a lovely one for under, a reasonable price, and they're going straight for the cord. Yeah. Comes with matching pouffe and things like that. Never mind. Mm. They'll never know. Mm. Have to be careful when you're talking about that cos Mm mm. cos you might say to Mark, oh have a listen to my recording I'll tell him! I'll tell him to his face I think his parent's sofa's not very nice. . Well they're not gonna hear. ? I doubt it. I don't lie to him especially as we've got a obviously. Who's this? Peter Sissons, that's it. I knew it was something along those lines. Ooh! Can I ask you, could you do some photocopying for me tomorrow? Yeah. I need these log sheets cos they didn't leave us any log sheets. Mm. Erm And Sarah sounds like a ship doesn't it? And we're sailing on, we're sailing on the Sarah Bell. Alright? Okay? So erm just mention obviously our connection Okay. you know. You can have that back now. Right. Thank you. Er erm Er erm, what have you used Did you get the piece on ? as well? I wouldn't bother with that one. Right. These three just be Okay? really off. I'll erm Okay. Just do that one. And yeah, do that one Oh right. and also Mm. I think they were out all day today actually. Yeah. Who's it for? Yeah. This guy, Oliver .? He's er Oh yeah , he's the one we sent a list to the other day. Yeah. And erm, he's very, he's got a house with, er somewhere with Lords but he doesn't really wanna take it's a little bit complicated Where? he's got his deposit tied up with Lords at the moment Mm. and they've got all the rest of it sorted out so it's quite easy to I have already, I, I , obviously as you know, I've got the new towns. move in quickly if we can agre , agree with Lords Mm mm mm Shall I have that one? Possibly. See if they're there? Yep. Erm Yeah. No, no, no, no, I don't think it she's a bit of shrewd old pigeon isn't she? I think we're gonna have to watch her? I'm gonna, I'm gonna phone them now anyway and see if they can at least come into you. Okay? Cos I mean, I've got a couple of people who wanna view it already. You got anybody else round? Okay. I'll, I'll give her a bell anyway and when this geezer's coming into you. Yeah. The money yesterday, it's alright rub it in! Go on! It's my, it's my birthday Monday and I'm just, my wife's taking me really? Was it? Oh thanks for telling us! Yeah I'd rather do it Monday. Perhaps you'd have let me know we could have gone for a beer. So Yeah. I mean, well Well we didn't get any better Yes we are. Yes. be in over the weekend. Alright. Okay . I'll speak to you soon. Right. Bye But is it a similar design to this one Catherine? No, they're two totally different properties. Have you, got, not got written details? One of , the things that Yeah. that I've done. Right. Hello Mr ? Hello from Alberford. Hello to you. Erm, any luck with those keys yet? Were you, sure. Right okay. If you mind that anyway, cos I may have a couple of people er that may want a few of them to, spoken to Dav , David , he's got one or two as well. Hello is that Cyndy ? Alright well yo , okay. If that's okay with you? That's fine. We'll leave it like that. Hi, it's Clare from Prudential. Alright. Hello. Erm I've had a gentleman on the phone this morning we have on our listings, I'm quite interested for him to have a look at the Er, yes possible. I mean out of the three that he saw and prefer, I must admit he did prefer forty four. Erm property sometime today. he's going away to think about it. I mean, obviously,whe whether or not he was absolutely Er, I wondered if that was possible. one hundred and ten percent serious. Erm yeah. Really? Oh that is great! Yeah but certainly the three he saw I mean I know he's going to be out sometime this afternoon, so I think any time after about six o'clock erm, he saw two before forty four and preferred forty four for the size of the . would be suitable for Right? him. I'll let you know as soon as I know. Alright Mr ? Thanks. Bye . Okay. Hello. Right. So if we said erm sort of seven o'clock? Would that be okay? Yep. Okay. His name is Oliver . Okay? And I'll send him along at seven then? That's lovely. Thank you. Bye-bye . David, Hello Gary. Hello. Would it be possible to speak to Oliver ? Right I've just spoken . Erm it's not It's Clare from the Prudential. Thank you. Oh. Well I know. Just thought I'd call you. Alright? So you could, yeah, you've got his telephone number anyway, so you can also phone him at the same time. I just said, look, you know, silly really, cos I mean, he knew I had a couple of people, erm, you know, Monday and Tuesday, before Monday and Tuesday and er you know, you got erm you need a couple of people as well, so if you don't mind coming over from , it's entirely up to you. Hello. Yeah, erm, if you could ask him to give me a call Yeah, fair enough. I mean it's the best way to do it anyway, anyway, we shouldn't have. Alright? Cheers. Bye . on ? I've managed to make him an appointment for one of the properties we were discussing earlier. Er er Yeah. And my name's Clare. Okay, thank you. Bye- bye . I went to see Sleepless in Seattle last night. It was lovely! Oh oh! Cath wants to take me to see it? What was it like? Well, it depends whether you li , it's a bit of a sort of old-fashioned weepy but it was really good. In other words Cath wants to see me crying. It was ,it was really sweet. Ah? Mm mm. Mm. That's that Good morning Prudential can I help you? Certainly. Who's calling? Yeah. Right, hold on a moment please Sarah for you. For me? Yes. Good morning, Gary speaking, can I help you? Oh right. Right. Thank you for telling us. So, your property's still available? Right. Right. Okay. You both seem with the situation in hand . So is Adam just off for a week or is it a fortnight? No, just off for a week. Oh He wasn't gonna take any. I said to him, you need it, you know just go. It's, it's okay I mean when he's away things go, actually things go a lot smoother. Sorry? Things go a lot smoother when he's not here. Mm mm. It's a shame, what yo , I think you could really do with is somebody sort of part-time who is kind of flexible on, on when they're part-time so they could fit in with the with the sort of fluctuation that the, the busyness goes in. Well I was hoping, yeah exactly. I mean, you obviously know what I want here, but I mean I was hoping that Yvonne would come across and work maybe two stroke three days a week for me even when Yeah. I needed to. But, her husband's just sta , or the boyfriend, the boyfriend's just started up a new company Mm. and that erm, that ain't gonna be possible unfortunately. Oh dear. Was erm is it Lorraine doing some work, is she doing some work for you? Is it Lorraine? Julie? I forget which, yeah, whichever one of Graham's sister's has got all those children . Oh Julie, yeah. You know, cracks in the walls. Erm, yeah she is, but she's doing, you know these calls I've been receiving. She's been doing the canvass one, canvass two, and canvass three. Oh right. Erm I got, I mean, er er, she's, she's like part-time canvassing for me at the moment. You know, everything I've got in my bottom drawer she does anyway. Yeah. Or all the ones that need sold, you know, got nice photographs of all the sold boards, and what I want her to do now is go and literally go and traipse the streets Mm mm. whereby we've sold a sold a property in those roads and erm deliver leaflets either side Yeah. and six doors up, six doors down from the one we've sold and get a coloured photograph so that's the next campaign going out. Yeah. She works for me in that side. Erm erm, she's not really, not really a typist. No. Er er so it's difficult. I mean, when, when Yvonne comes in, blimey! I mean,sh , talk about work her socks off! Erm, she's in at ten o'clock and she just does not stop until four o'clock. Mm mm. She did she did nine nine instructions for me last week. The week before that it must have been eleven, twelve. Have you seen the top drawer? No. God! Twenty thousand pounds worth of sales in the bottom drawer now. Oh that's brilliant! And there's six thousand pounds worth of financial services. That's excellent! So just over half way in a year. No, I love it to bits, but I just wish there was some assistance in the office. Yeah. It's difficult, cos I know Adam doesn't like the idea of employing secretaries he likes the idea to sort of to, to maximize by having somebody that does both. But I think there is a case for Well it's blatantly taking the piss, let's be honest, I mean, I can't muck around, I mean it's blatantly taking the piss isn't it? Yeah. I mean You know I think there is a case, especially, and not so much with the letters because there is a minimal amount of, of secretarial work, but with something like that I think you would really do with somebody who's just there basically to type and Mm. answer the phone Mm. Mm. and not have to keep stopping and starting and That's right. But I mean, it's getting to the stage now where it's gonna become counter-productive, well, for me cos it's got to such a point now where I've got exchanges going through, I've got erm sales going through, details to be typed, canvassing going out, instructions, appointments to make, the outcomes Yeah. a therefore, like Catherine's in a situation herself and she'll obviously vouch for it, I cannot get my applicants. No. If I could get my applicant, you see if, let's say we pay somebody, I dunno fifty, sixty quid a week, fifty quid a week to come and for, two mornings, three mornings, or whatever that'll then give me enough time to contact the applicants and then ma , maybe maybe two stroke three sales extra per month. Mm. Half a sale would pay Yeah. the annual salary for this so-called Yeah. part-timer. But I've got to the stage now where I, I cannot erm I cannot do any more. No. I was even, you know, obviously you can worry about sending the stuff, this canvass three out purely because the the amount of instructions I had to do last week. Mm mm. I'm, I'm glad they're coming on, we seem to be taking on more than hopefully the old, the old wages at the moment, which is encouraging. It's the erm . Right. Now it's actually at the midla down in Yule, which is the far side of erm Tulworth. Yep. Mhm. Is that gonna be suitable for you really? Okay then. Well not to worry, I'll cancel that one. Erm I'm afraid that property's now gone. Yeah. Tt. I don't have anything else that I could show you at the moment I'm afraid. That's about it. Mhm. What's your upper price limit? Eight hundred. Eight fifty. Mhm. Okay then. Well if anything comes up I'll call you. Yup. Yeah. I would be very surprised if a property on at nine fifty would be dropped much below nine hundred because, obviously they have a, they have a certain that they need to get and I I'd be surprised if they'd go sort of much below fifty pounds less a month than they've advertised it for. And if anybody wants a drink or anything er er, there's Coke behind, if anybody wants a coffee or you know, just shout. Mm. I'll get the slave outside to do that one. I can say that now cos she can't hear. Lucky. What's this then? Right. Are we gonna make a move then? I mean Erm , yeah. I'm frightened to Yeah. without, without The tape is on. It's going. It's on? Yes, yes. Oh so we've already been had. What yes. That is one month's Alright. Yes, yes. Yeah. But before the meeting can I just I'd like to give something to Chris actually. Oh dear! And I have an apology to make. This is the reason for this is it? That is right ! Nearly a year too late. I found them in my room. I must say that. Ah ah ah, that's it. And if you have with Carole So it was you all the time. it's surprising he's found them this He will but it could have been three years time before that surfaced. You're a right plonker Mark! Agree with that. Alright. Thank you. Yes, you go in by Yeah . You can say to the secretary. Right. Better make a start then. Apologies for absence for Sir who is in Fiji. Erm urgh urgh urgh! But not yet he's not. Wurgh urgh urgh! Well he's on his way to Fiji via Melbourne He's nearly there. and er, Auckland is he? Au , Why? Oh that's when I was there. Er, it's the only way you can get there apparently. So you fly to the This, this No, but why's he going? Erm To visit his brother. because his brother who likes listening to erm, erm air traf , sounds Oh part of the air waves , yes. erm finds that the Fiji air controls are the most fascinating in the world. And his brother's out there at the moment listening to the erm you know, the aircraft co Oh that's very nice. No he's on a round the world ticket, it's cost him eleven pound. And fly into New Zealand I would have thought on the Yeah. Was that the bloke who played soft ball with us last year? Er er Yes it was. yeah. Yeah. Oh yeah. He came to watch Wimbledon Y S A once How much is that costing him, a round the world ticket? Well it's only costing Eddie's brother a hundred erm one thousand one hundred pounds. Only! But it's costing Eddie about nine hundred pound, and the only way he can get there is this kind of ticket which goes with, like I say Hong Kong We , we'll erm Very nice too! How long for? How long is that? He's only , he's only going for a couple of weeks Mm. and then he's back, he's back. Erm Oh well. No he's going for over two weeks. Yeah? He'll be knackered by the time he, when he gets back. I thought he was going for three weeks. Oh. Oh he might be away for thre , cos I know he had golf at the Belfry this week, and then when he comes back he's being picked up by a car to take him to the Belfry again, cos we're entertaining there for a weekend's golf. But you can't, you can't play golf. Yeah. Tough life! It is. It is innit? Eh? I dunno whether, how he's gonna get on. At the back Yeah. whole hardly Yeah. still usable though. Yeah. Better have, have two We are gonna get new ones? Well, I dunno, can't afford it. You can fill that in can't ya? Yeah. Let's face it, don't want get to the table anyway. The head was in the way anyway. I think he'll select his course But he won't It probably, probably cracking now. So, make a start then. Right. First to obviously confirm that the A G M is for the er eleventh of er November. You've paid the money haven't you Mark? Yes. Yes I have. Cos every time you pay the money. Yeah. Right. Erm so it'll be upstairs in the Green Green Man is The deposit for the Green Man I paid it. A very Right. nice young lady behind the bar. Erm Sorry Claire. Erm, first thing I ne Oh, oh yeah ! fir , first thing I need to know is I have Cor ! I've not booked up erm Cricket next, yet erm because I wanted to come to the meeting and ask erm you know what night, and also what period? I mean, last year we went back to Wednesday nights and we booked up erm I think it was five er weeks er th , the five Wednesdays of March. Did we have two nets on? We had two nets Yeah. er, we had five weeks. Yeah. Erm as Eddie's sent this thing here, this minus seventy pound nett, that is the nett difference that is the cost erm of what it cost us to actually hire the nets less the one pound fifty er per person, er per session that was paid, so that is the nett difference because we come there. So it's a case of asking what nights. The reason say that is that I mean, Wednesday erm nights is, if you like, football nights. I know it wasn't too bad last year erm I think it's either at a Wednesday or Thursday. I know Steve asked if we could go back to Thursdays cos he can't make a Wednesday night. And er, and that's the main thing isn't it ? That's right, you Yeah. know. Well it's, it's not that I mean I'm just trying to see I see, you know. Well Cos I was thinking What? I'm thinking of you guys like with your Palace, I mean, you're gonna have some Wednesday nights coming up for promotion. Mm mm. Erm No, we'd have and jus already got it by then. Well, then you'd probably wanna go and see if they can you know No, actually Palace, to be fair Palace very rarely play on a Wednesday. They usually play Don't they? on a Tuesday. Yeah. For the time being. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Tomorrow night, I know. Yeah, I'm working this week. Oh. Yeah. Anyway, so that's the first thing, what erm you know, which, what do you wanna keep it Wednesdays and do the same as Yeah. last year or do you wanna go to Thursdays or Keep it to Wednesday. I think Thursdays is fine. Get Steve Can't be Wednesdays Are they Well Get Steve down there and Does it matter? Do you wanna fight about it? Jus th , the it didn't seem to alter too much the, the people No. who attended last year. Apart from Steve , I don't think there appeared to be anyone who turned round and said look they couldn't do it. So therefore, if we go back to Thursdays Steve Mm. can come down. And to be fair to Steve, he was absolutely crap cricketer and er is now Still is. now got a bit better. His batting For not getting it in the nets. Cos he didn't go to that's why! Well I think old Steve, he thoroughly enjoys himself Oh yeah. er , and he, he's He's on an abseiling weekend though. absolutely useless in the field and we want to, oh well Mm. bring him out of Well that's why I delayed it cos I mean he is actually keen to come, and he was very disappointed last year but obviously he pu Mm mm. puts the band before us, but er so I'll go to Thursdays then on, on er I would think so, yeah. and keep five, five erm, well, you know the Thursdays of March and two nets? Yep. Okay. We could even le We certainly need more than one net. Yeah, I don't know how well they'd get offended if we Yeah it was alright. There were quite, there were quite of times I like nets, I think nets is excellent. I think Yeah. we could have more, the more nets the better. It's, it's no extra We could go about having a quarter of an hour batting Carrying it out if you can have a quarter of an hour's batting each We can bowl from the side. We need them high up. Mm. But we, there were too many people for two nets last year to have Yeah. quarter of an hour. Well yes. Sometimes we were struggling to get ten minutes each. Though the nets were well attended. Yeah. Yeah. Cos even John and George was sort of coming from end to another. Well yeah, that's right. Yeah. Tony came round to bat for us didn't he? And Andrew 'll come this year. Yeah, I mean, obviously erm , I think we originally moved back from Thursdays to Wednesdays because on Thursdays I think erm EastEnders. there was a lot of people who couldn't make it. I think Steve was going to a first aider or something, and there was quite a few different people. On that subject, obviously next year, er bearing in mind that we've agreed as a committee to go for twelve matches on Sundays Aha. erm, we gotta bear in mind that a lot of these er younger players are now gonna be away at erm college, university whatever. Erm and that Yeah , that's true up to a point, but you've gotta remember though that that only affects the first half, or first bit of season. Cos they're all still here until the end of the season cos they don't go back . Yeah. Yeah, that's true. But obviously with twelve matches I'm not gonna be able to spread it like I did last year. Well no , you've got more at the end as opposed to the Yeah. beginning. But then er But then they're back for it. but then it clashes with Yes they are aren't they? that clashes with the erm with the football which we're trying to avoid. Well, we erm could can't we? There's not too much on the football front I don't think it does really. on Sundays in Septembers. No. Yeah. I'm gonna have to spread them out anyway and erm it could be a problem. I don't think there's many of them that go to football anyway is there? Well it's not I mean it's not necessarily going It's not is it? And it's not so much And i if you got people it's actually using the pitches. some of the taking exams as we had this year, they, they Oh, I see what you mean. the fact Well that's they couldn't play. Yeah. That's right. It was half of That was in. the season because apparently Exams. they do it more and more this year. Yeah. And we're gonna have, obviously have to avoid the two Sundays from the tour. Mm. And it does, with twelve you are and obviously I'm depending upon another team to Are we come play us this year. decided who we're gonna play with the twelve fixtures against you? Mm. Erm well gonna play them all against Sutton Partisans. That's right, yeah ! Erm They out-rank us. Yeah, I I do Well I see nothing wrong with that at all. I got a rough idea of who erm we're kind of er playing contact. Course. Cos the the bloke from the B B C doesn't want to play us now cos we're too good, I mean Well I mean, I don't Really? Is that right? want a ga Is that right? Yeah. Mm. I was gonna go This was the same youngsters that were playing two years ago. So you're gonna go one with them? Yeah. I was only gonna go one with them anyway. If erm I think you might be able to swing one. Mm. Yeah, I mean I was gonna go, one Sutton Partisans, one for the B B C Oh I think Sutton Partisans we could go two. Yeah, but a cracking place to go and play for Yeah. Yeah. only one. that, that that We're looking four. This is the thing. Yeah. But they're a really nice bunch of blokes. I know but Yeah. really it er we erm and they'll probably get two pitches or something . Pay your money for it . Mm. Yeah. The er Wi Witham second eleven I'm still gonna, gonna keep that one in. Erm got a fixture just off the press Cos we played them twice Witham didn't we? Yeah, not if not if we're going to that pub. No. They th , that could be decided, but Walton Heath Sports. What is wrong with the Robin Hood? Walton Heath Sports? Yeah, we played them once before. Who's that then? I dunno. Erm, in fact that's where Andy got his top score You've not been there before. against, Andy's top score's against Walton Heath Sports. But that's erm, that's be an away match, that's at Walton Heath near where the golf course is there. That's the guy who I work with. Erm, that is very much medium er er week, and probably more medium that medium week. Erm obviously keep the score figure,fig , figure if we can. That's alright, bring them on. Bring them up. I ke , I was keeping the two with Strenewe cos that's a nice venue Yeah. and erm That we , about the best. Well yeah, about the best I like playing Strenewe. games we play actually on a Sunday. Yeah. We want erm Tony wanted to play us, the Sunday side twice erm The Shamrocks. Yeah. Great. which is again, er I dun , one of the guys at work, another guy at work come which is quite a, well it's near Guildford, Primchet, which is quite a good quite a good side. But he knows actually what we're trying to do on a Sunday, and they either like to play us, er er once or twice and they got a reasonable ground. And I was trying to, gonna move the was gonna discuss with you first, but Croydon see, so they're actually not Croydon Rank, they're Croydon, but anyway Mm mm. you know what I mean, erm to play them on a Sunday which Mm mm. I know, I'm saying we're trying to improve the strength but we still have Mm. the Partisans who may be a little bit weaker, and certainly Croydon Rank is on a Sunday erm rather than Saturday. Cos Maybe they want to come here. the Saturday Yeah, we want somebody, you gotta remember, it's the only side that is ever so slightly weaker than the Saturday side. Yeah, I mean Er it was a waste of time on a Saturday really, I mean, I think the, I mean Andy said we could have That was alright. we could have had it all over by three o'clock. Well we're that's They're further. but it's all, it was all down to the captain It was on the other side. though really, I thought, that day. Definitely. Mm. Definitely. The captain was superb that day. Go cra , er the er What the captain? No. The ca the captain on the day was batting and batting and batting himself until he got to seventy Yeah I know ! and then he declared. Tell me all about it. Yeah. Oh yeah. Like the balls It was raining at the time. so erm Did we win though? Cos I mean our, did we win? Say no,ju , if th if this is right this will improve the er improve the strength. Now see I'm looking at this here, right, just for fitting in twelve games I mean, I'm gonna have to start the first of May. Erm so that'll include September the fourth which is my last Sunday one, September the fourth. Er, because also yo you really don't wanna play like three consecutive Sundays, but on some of you these yo we may even have to. It is difficult. Hang on, the play I was gonna May I, can I ask you a question Brian? Yeah. Why do you write on such small pieces of paper? Er, this is not I mean, just wondered really. I haven't got the things yet, I mean I have to First of May , if we get rid of the youngsters, first of May might be a bit of problem cos there's Mm. probably a cup final and they're still playing football on the first of May. Mm mm. It's the week after that that they really start playing. Yeah I know, I've got that pencilled in for something. I mean that, that early fixture we struggle on a Saturday sometimes don't we? Down at erm Yes. Yeah. erm where are they? Kinsbury. Kingsbury. Is that the erm, bank holiday? It will be. It will be. Er It will be weren't it? It's always the first Monday of the er Yeah. I've got a feeling that bank holiday won't, probably not the world's greatest Mm mm. time to start. I don't see any reason this year why you shouldn't go get another fixture on th , the Sunday in September. Yeah, mid-September. Yeah. Either the eleventh or the eight, eighteenth. After the fourth, you've got the eleventh. On the eleventh. And if , only if we're guided by football, they're playing in the morning, they'll finish, they'll, they don't play in the, in the Yeah. afternoon. Okay. Well we'll, I'll put that in. And ah See I haven't got the games around there. I think Andy's , what time, when do your lot play? I think they start on the eighteenth dunnit? Yeah. usually. Er, if you did the eleventh, the fourth or the eleventh Yeah, it might be. should be alright. Mm. And take away the one at the beginning of May I would have thought. Yeah. What time is it? Oh well, I just say, I mean a lot depends on when other teams can play us. Cos I wanna get Yeah. we wanna get decent away matches and not to er have to have too many home games. Er right, okay. I might let out tonight actually. Yeah. That's right. Anyway, the poi , the other thing is erm then obviously this re , concerns really you know, you two at the moment, but, players for next year, I mean bearing in mind we are gonna lose a few. Erm George for example, erm Mm. certainly is going. Mhm mm. Erm, and what I said about the erm We had a player who Ha? what I said about the er George didn't play a lot really. He didn't play an awful lot this year, no. No he didn't. Erm, but on the other hand we had early season, you know, from Stuart and he seemed to interest in away but I don't know why he didn't play much at the end of the season. Oh he was er, playing fa football for Eagle Star. Fa football? And five-a- side stuff. Mm mm. Well erm And he got the hots for a girl as well which didn't help. Oh well. Ah well, yeah, okay. Well what I was thinking is, I mean That'll I don't know if you Wallington Cottages are gonna That's what we're talking about now I think . if Wallington Cottages are gonna break up. But if they're not gonna break up, I mean, there are some pretty disillusioned players there. I think they Erm will stay together. Cos I was talking to Brian Yeah. We'll grab them! cos I think he's gonna be Captain next year. Is he? Yeah. Oh, well I se We'll miss their pitch for sure. He's erm, he's after the It's a damn nice pitch that! he's after, he's been after trying to Captain the side Oh. next year. Shocker! Oh that's shame cos I what about, I mean I was thinking of erm, John sa , John , you know Andrew's brother? Cos he's a really you know nice guy and Yes, as long as you keep the ball. He's in the side. Yeah I was gonna say No I think you ought to take him because then I don't have to place a man . He can't er I mean he can't What is it? do anything else other than keep wicket. Mm. Yeah. And talk the hind legs off a donkey. Er well no we've got a ni , there's no need Brian. Eh? He talks the hind legs off a donkey. Yeah. But he's boring But he's go , he's as well dead boring. but he's a good Well yeah. Like Marcus is in He, he's, he's a, he's, he's Yeah. He's a No, no, no. He's worse than Marcus. Marcus is, you can have a bit of a laugh with Marcus, but I mean er John is a bit more serious isn't he? John's serious, you can't he is dead serious all the time and it is a sometimes a great effort to get away from him ! I thought he might be good also from the erm, you know, trying to get a decent pitch and things like that. You know, I mean I know he said that the best thing, decision we ever made was not to go to erm Raynes Park because the wicket really has deteriorated on that, but he has a lot of contacts and things. And I didn't think he was that happy with Cottages, and in fact, I thought he was gonna leave anyway. He has left, really. He has left Yeah. now yeah. After that game. He is left. Yeah. Cos he came round the next week and talked to me, he had a quick chat with me for about three hours! I mean, apart from keep wicket, I mean does he bat? I mean er No. In fact he doesn't does he? I got him out first ball. I, I just thought Well er I'd add that in. depends on how they're playing I guess. Be , I used to bloody give them not-out by the umpire. Oh! Was that you? Yeah. But he walked. But he walked. And he said hello to you. That's what I mean, he's a nice gu I mean there's that many . No, no there's no room. I mean, do we want these kind of people in our team? Well I du , I mean I dunno but I just I mean Brian I know yo , you know you but, I just feel that we might Next question please? struggle next year. I know I say this every year but I, I, I just thought we might You just wanna be a pessimist Brian, you know. Yes well well I do feel we might struggle for players. But bearing in mind we're playing I mean it might more matches. yeah, it might affect us if we're gonna play that mu more matches on a Sunday as well because I don't know how many people will be prepared to turn out on both days. That's true. If we need some of the youngsters for Saturday, then are Mm mm. they gonna wanna turn out Sunday you know, or vice versa? Well the youngsters are much more flexible and much more willing to turn out both days than older folk. I'm not saying they're not willing, but they've got other drags on them. If they're at school and they're studying for exams they may not be a la , you know, possible for them to play both days. That's a fair comment. I mean Nick We'll send the boys round and nobble them. Saturdays innit? Mm mm. Mm. But erm I dunno. Let's go for a recruitment drive. I mean who have lost at the Yeah. moment? Talking about George Yeah , how many is there anybody else? How many did I say we were actually talking about Brian? How many, well, I mean, and i if you like, I mean we've lot, I mean we've lost, I mean he didn't play at all last year, but as Chris said Mm. one of the reasons which we lacked last year was er, was a, was a fast, you know, opening bowler. We lost on er, what's his name? Mm. John . Oh yeah. Erm Well Well he didn't do very much. we hired him so many times Yeah. Yeah. He didn't really play a match when we played Yeah. it. Erm I doubt, you know he'll come It's Steve what's his name as well, he never played. Well he must have once. Steve ? . Yeah I mean he's, he's given up He's given up now. he's given up er He works anyway I think Mm. so I mean Mm. He's basically kind of given up erm cricket. I dunno what the situation with Andrew is, cos I mean I heard the rumours that he was gonna for Cheam. . . Oh! plays for Spurs. . Spurs, yeah. Erm , Was he erm Whatever his name is! Whatever his name is. He plays football . I mean the rumours were that he was gonna go to Cheam, he was supposed to be Saturdays for Cheam. And how he can afford match fees or anything, cos he's never paid us a penny, I dunno, but No don't want Er him back . Yes I mean, isn't he still at school? He's gonna play snooker in a minute. He is still at school. No he's at college, no he's at college Oh no he's at college that's right. He's, he's at Epsom Art College. That's right, he is at Oh right. art college. Yes he is. So I mean I don't know if they He's at art college football . I dunno if they've got a cricket team or whatever. Blimey! So I'm saying that, you know, it's gotta be a doubt. Er Dominic who, you know again is the ideal person But it's not convenient. if he was a , always available but see you got a lot of, you got a players like Dominic Stuart, Andrew who is everyone was available we wouldn't have a problem, but No. at the end of their they're only gonna It's always right innit? if they play half the matches. I mean, Dominic played eleven. Well, Dominic would have played more but he couldn't get in the blooming team! Which was surprising. Cos some games, he ge , he did get dropped. Well I don't think he was available was he? Brian No. says. Cos he's not available regularly He was not available. is he? No, I can only think, I think there was one game where he was available, but, he was a sort of a late availability and by that time we already had Oh yeah. eleven people. Mm. But there was only, there was two or three times in all the time. Well I got it from when he had the Yeah, he, he, he Ca , Cameron's, Cameron's gone to to, to University now. Aha. Erm Mike, Mike didn't play a lot. Well he did, Michael's left the game. He didn't play. And he's, you know Erm, anyway, I mean that's a Where's Paul ? it's just a Paul will be Paul . Yeah, yeah I mean there's another great cricketer who only played a couple of times last season, was Dave . Okay. Fair enough. But you've not , you've not had people yet, why can't you er Dave ? you could encourage, what's his name? Neil . Neil, and Gary. And Jason. Do they play cricket do they? There was Jason, are you gonna try and Jason? encourage these guys? ? Jason . And Jason , we've gotta try and encourage him. I, I mean he got bags of possibility there. I could get the whole of to play with us. After playing at Colman's Hatch I think. Now,. Yeah, see I mean Oh yeah. I think Jas Yeah. Jason's always been a winner and Er , er er Yeah. I don't think he'd, he'd And you saying my team of losers Brian? It's not that. I ain't playing after that at all. Nah , but he, he do , what I mean is some people enjoy Yeah. it even when we're That's right. yeah, but I always get the impression with Jason that he wouldn't enjoy anything unless he No. He won it. unless he won it. That's right. No. Well, that's only my opinion but No I agree with you. er erm Well he had a good start didn't he? Yeah ! And er Colman's Hatch is Did indeed, yeah. slightly different. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, just things to bear in mind, right, is that we're having more fixtures next year against a higher standard of opposition, overall erm Really? and er, and we've probably got less players. Er, I just No , er, it's a fair comment. Perhaps we should advertise again in the paper. That's, d'ya remember we got Andy last time we did. Yeah. Fat bowlers, d'ya remember that? An inspired piece of Remember that was. You can actually spell game. I put on there what he's,do , what he done his er bowling. Yeah he,bo ,bowl over for twenty seven last Yeah. time I think. Twenty eight. Yeah. First ever game. First ever game. Yeah. Some of the things What in the game? to come I thought. Yeah. The , then he bo bowled Well that's right. against Yeah. What was that over he Actually he bowled against? B B C. B B C? God! Strewth! But he hadn't bowled them though He did bowl quite few actually there. Talk about under , underground Yeah. bowling. Yeah ! pathetic! It was an all-rounder that first year wasn't he? Yeah. Mm mm. Terrible! God, we had a bad team! Mm mm. Shocking! Hello! Oh don't worry about that. Right anyway ,th er next, next thing That's Andy. in my notes is that, as I said, the A G M is on the eleventh of er, of November. Now one of the criticisms that I've had er from the people who prefer to be nameless but always come to me afterwards and say oh it was a waste of time coming. The committee meetings are the la , er,, committee meetings! The A G M, the last two years people have said well there's not a great deal of point in coming along other than for a drink because er the committee's got it all sorted out, you know, beforehand as regards who's doing what. Quite right too. Erm and er, they say, you know, therefore they don't feel that they've got a voice. Erm cos They can disagree if they like. Well er If this is the case, how come they go on so blooming long! Yeah! Eh? I find that extremely difficult I soon find that Goodness me! hard to believe . Yeah. Everybody, everybody, has their say Yeah. and then we do what we want. Well, to be fair, the A G M's I've been to, they do influence some of Yeah. decisions They have not all of them Yeah. Yeah. but they Mm. er they do influence some of them. So I'd like to think that er whoever said that is er I think they're wrong. No it wasn't mine it was, it was er dunno how to say So what really are they asking? Admitting it. Admitting it! Now come on, look Admitting it! mention no name names! Well admittedly the fierce, the most fierce cricketer of all Paul who er Who's that? who didn't Oops! speak to me for er, for a day afterwards, at least one day, and just said Nobody. oh it was a complete waste of time, er was Alan . Oh. And what a great night that was! Just have to get over it. But he said the whole thing That's right. was a complete, you know Yeah but why though? Well I think that That's right. probably er But why? Yeah. it su it summarizes the particular, by the bloke. That's right. Aha. Yeah. Yeah. Who else? Come on! Still we know he's know your mate Brian so we won't say anything nasty about him. No I haven't said anything nasty. No it doesn't matter So what do they I don't, I don't work with him any more. you know Erm I don't know who they are. But I ju , I So what is it, what is it I'd just like to know. what is it they actually want then? Well I think they would like to feel that, you know, when we say right erm So they want, nominations for category , we all, eh,no no nominate Captain, Secretary whatever, that Yeah. erm Like on those they'd like, like them to come from the floor and not from another from a committee member says, yeah I sponsor Billy , and another committee member says I Yeah, but the thing is, yeah okay, yeah but yeah, but the thing is you're gonna get someone saying Mickey, Mickey Mouse or whoever it is,so , you know someone who doesn't wanna stand someone who hasn't been asked. And we've got this I don't see a embarrassment I mean of having a vote and so and so gets no first of all we decided to do this and they think well blimey Well put them in the the black box. nobody likes me, no votes for Captain. There's nothing to stop them. Our Jeff goes around and says any more nominations Yeah. there's nothing to stop them putting No, you still have No course there isn't anybody in there. to do that anyway don't you? Yeah. Course there is. Yeah. But I You know think th ,yo , I mean they said, they they feel that it's no point anyway, it's already been decided. Well, I think they're wrong really. To a degree they're probably right. Well I think they are, yeah. To a degree I mean, I think they're right. I think they're wrong. But and th , and the committee has to guide th , otherwise you'd still be there! If, if there was no guidance coming through from the committee. Well they vote the committee to er help vote run, to run and make the decisions of the club don't they? And if they don't want the committee making No it's not just that. the decisions of the club do they get another committee? Well they can cha change it. What are the club rules? Well that's what they're saying , they're not, that the committee they say, is basically is voting ourselves back in. And What? I mean, we obviously we No. No. obviously we've got to have someone like in, in erm, with regards administration, we've gotta have someone like, for example Ooh ooh! I'm se , I'll be secretary if no one else wants to do it. I'm just wondering whether we should say, you know Mm. nominations for secretary or whatever, and see if other people are willing to do it. Yeah well the committee members doesn't carry I thought that's what we did. any more vote than anybody else. No, they're not, they're not. No. Mm. It's got one vote, the same as anybody else on the floor. That's right. Yeah. What's our er Yeah. club rules say about all this? I haven't got a copy of club rules. Nor have I. Oh! You know I have. Yeah, no it's Why, why didn't you tell me this? Yeah, Jeff. I've, I'll have a look anyway. Oh is this the flaky's gonna produce it is he? Mr married man's getting Mr flaky now. If it's the club rules Don't do it. you know Cos he stands up in public. Er, er, ah , he's got a ca , copy of the club rules. You should have handed them out. That's why I was late. The policy Dave I just wondered what it said. I haven't got a clue even when it's here . Is it about A G M's and things does it? What does it say? The off , all officers of the club should be elected at the A G M, which would be held on a . Yeah. What does it say about erm pe , erm, mm mm mm mm mm mm mm, er er It's one man, one vote. Or one person, one The persons at A G M should members of the committee at the A G M. This is a question of Officers, yeah? All officers of the club should be elected at the A G M. Should be held no later than thirtieth of November each year . When's the er, sorry, when's the A G M this ye , year Dave? . Er the eleventh. One vote for each officer playing a member . Cos there's nothing in our rules Is that the book? about when the nominations have to be in. No. So they're aren't any nominations. There's nothing like there's nothing in there to say that the committee resign en-bloc and shall be allowed to so Well all it is, is is if this unless you get out in a huff. That's too easy to do. Nominations on that. The whole of the, the whole of the A G M has a say there because it's all up for grabs. Yeah. No I mean Mm mm. There's no way shouldn't Oh no, they could have a sho , er they have, they agree they've got a say but they just feel that everything is decided so what is the point? Mm mm. Erm, you know,the , it's mainly our younger players. I mean, they, they're saying that you know they,i what's the point? I mean they, and also a lot of people are shy to once as erm, someone's put up someone else and it's been seconded by two people on the committee they feel there's no point in I think it's a false argument. Mm, mm mm. Mm mm. So do I somehow. I really do. Alright. Just put a on Well it'll be , I think it'll be very interesting then this year that when asked for nominations for captain we say nothing and just see what happens. And just see what happens. Just sit there and say nothing , and just see what happens. Yeah that's right. Yeah. Yeah. Yes! I'll be, I'll be out the room . This could be Yeah . this could be the person who's moaning about the Well it could well be, yeah. That's right. Well it wasn't me. Yeah . Erm, I know There was nothing in there though so Mm. there's no way that the, the, the committee can influence the club like that. Oh no, no. Can we, can we do it on something else other than the captain though? Vice-captain. Committee secretary. Yes. Mm. No, really Well cos all the things they've said before . No we could, we could do it for all jobs cos No because we wouldn't do that anyway. we could do it for all jobs, and see, that's what I saying, I mean, we've got we've got, we'll have somebody i , in,mi , but it's up to, you know, the commi , er to the members anyway who gets all these jobs, so Anyway , can, onto the next bit. Who wants to do what next year? Well that's, that's the next thing, I mean who who's, who's Well it's go , you've got to go to A G M like that. We have. Otherwise You've got to. otherwise you could sit there, you'd have no Mm. er captain, no secretar , nothing. And not only that you've only gotta You've gotta have people if you haven't got something organized beforehand. Even if Yeah. you don't actually mention it. If you, erm, and you as president or whoever's the chairman of the night Mm mm. has got to turn round, has got to know that the, the, the positions are gonna filled. That's right. Yes. You only go in with And jus just because a fair idea. just because we've got a fair idea of you mi , Well, I wanted, basically to determine cereals, with the main ones. Sorry. The main, the two main ones there. Yeah. Different cereals, presume yours are old and er, It seems to be er, What, how, bearing in mind we're after ten er, ten horses and fifteen how many, erm, how many would you let us have, Well the maximum Certainly, Yeah. Erm, I mean, horses, probably have two horses. I think we're gonna This is good news, we can actually let you have all the cows. We've actually got quite a good er cow stock ourselves. Are you sure he give fifty notes. Yeah, he did. Yeah, effectively. Positive. Look at this. within one or two. Did he. Depends who er, need to discuss that. Yeah, I'll send him round nearer the time, I think. Well, erm, well obviously we've got some, as you know, we've got the timber all the material. Yeah. We could certainly erm, we could certainly address some of your needs in that respect, but erm, not all. Erm, so effectively, it's a, we'll be negotiating without a balancing of horses and on our part. Mhm. Erm, timber and materials, timber and materials on your part. And you don't want my cows. Er, we'll certainly be er after some of your cows, yes. But er, We could throw in quite a lot of er, extra manure. Yeah, I mean our crops actually work better with horse manure, erm, then they do with er cow manure. The thing is we gotta got a slight problem in the transport back Isle of Mann a certain number of years. Yeah, it's the same with our blokes, erm, so I mean, we're perfectly willing to help. Yeah. If you would with us on the point of transport. Yeah. That's not a problem. So rea realistically, really, erm, bearing in mind we can't satisfy your need, your full need for ten cereals and fifteen timbers. Yeah. I mean, what are we sort of, what arrangement are we working within. Well, Fingers crossed. Yeah, what, no, tell us, what's the maximum amount of timber you could theoretically give us on a good day. Well, on a good day, erm, we could give you ten. Yeah. But that's it, on a good day we could give you ten only, and we couldn't give you any more. Basically we've only got ten. Right. And we can't give you any over five horses. Are you sure? Positive. So you're saying, you've got five horses and ten Yeah. On account. And we can give you on account. Which was? I'm buying. Ah, right. Mm. Presumably you can give us, either fifteen or twenty. Ten. Yeah. We can certainly give you ten. He wants to make an offer on our cereals. Maybe we shouldn't have had them, and left our horses to five. Yeah, I mean, we, we, we couldn't, certainly couldn't give you any more than five. Right. So basically, we can give you ten for ten timber and Five cereal. And five cereal for five horses, basically. much as that. What about er, fruit and veg. five pounds Is there any chance of getting five veg and five fruit? Mm. What was the maximum number of cows you could let us have? We could let you have five. Five. Isn't there a figure higher than that? What we could do. Yeah. No. We could give you five. Give you ten sheep. We could also give you some coal. Yeah,suppose to be reporting to industries in coal power, power station,No. wool and fibres makes you yes. Eight comes to mind. No, no no. Eight horses, maximum of ten horses, maximum of five cows. Ten horses. Ten horses. Sorry, sorry, sorry Ten ten horses, ten horses that you need. We can give you a maximum of five horses. Five horses and five cows. How many cows of sheep. Oh, you said sheep. Can't spare the sheep. We don't want sheep. I still think we're falling short of what we need. Mm. Erm,you interested in our veg and fruit. Yeah. Erm, if we were willing to throw that into the pot, Mhm. Erm, would you reconsider the offers you made on the horses in the offer. How much, if we definitely decided Oh it's an attractive amount. We can. Oh, do you now. The sheep are very attractive. We can't, we can't give you, we can't give you more than five horses on I think I think sheeps out of the bargain anyway, because we're both, sounds that we both got an over supply of the sheep. Mm. I can't give you a pound. It's all I've got. Oh. But we wouldn't agree that erm, the lives the livestock is negotiable now. negotiating livestock cereals of five. The maximum we can lay is five, yeah. And apparently cereal. So you want to, in respect of us offering you sort of fruit and veg into the bargaining, is er, Make you change the horses. we can't change the horses. Can't not that we won't. We can't do, we can't What, do you only have five horses? Well no, right. But we need something to power of appeals. Yeah, but we don't need, er to society. Would be easing, so to speak in sort of units of horses or electricity. Okay, if plough the fields, if we were to supply you with erm, fruit and veg, erm, obviously that would,some of for you to plough the fields, in which case you would have more to to offer us. Mm. I mean, she coped nicely because, providing we maintain a breeding stock of horses, cows and sheep, we can perhaps help you out a little bit more on that if you could erm, help us some more on the timber. Mm. Because as well. Okay, if you're interested in it. So what what how, what could you increase the horse quantity to. I think probably be seven horses. Would you reckon eight. I really anticipated breeding two horses, to keep a breeding stock. to breed. I think think, we'd want, you know for that, we'd want to push the two, you know your offer of ten,erm, Okay, we we wouldn't settle for seven horses, then. For We've Okay, we'd be willing to up the the, be willing to up the ten to twelve. Mm. I working on the training timber directly for horses, and then talk about cereal So We'll exchange your seven horses for twelve of our timbers, and we'll throw in a quantity of barrels, I think. Barrels? Barrels. Barrels. What empty barrels, In which to store your oil, because of the heated having transported Excellent idea. Er, forget out it. I mean, I mean I'm in charge To be honest, empty barrels just take up space on the Mm. Yeah. We could possibly, could probably, er we could, say, we could probably give you fifteen All your own, Mhm. If you forget the horses for a minute. Mhm. We could give you fifteen if you want your timber to maximum. I think your your priorities obviously well, okay, it's it's pulse Horses are my life , and they're the two priorities So we, say we give you horses, Mhm. Could you give us say, fifteen in timber and and we both reduce the We still need, we still need some fruit and veg, but er, I don't see that being a problem, you know. We'd strike a bargain at erm, at twelve to timber and seventeen we're after. What about the er fruit and veg? Erm. Couple of units each of those? Yeah, we can throw in a couple of units each of those . So, let's just summarise. So you'll give us twelve timber, two materials, two veg and two fruit. Mhm. We will give you seven horses, fifteen oil Five cans. Five cans. Well let's take it or leave it. Any chance of you giving us another five units of something. And a jack-pot. Well, I'm giving you a total of er twenty-seven units. You're giving us a total of twenty-three. And we're giving you boats to transport it. We'll we'll be we'll be, we'll be willing to give you. Well, you haven't said that, yet, have you? I think transport being the problem. You could say we should agree with our sums. That's fine. But erm, we do seem to be coming out a little bit light. Okay, how many units we go after? Well, we've I would like we're basically giving you all your cow requirement and all your oil requirement. Yeah. We're getting not all our timber requirement and, not all our cereal requirement, no. We're getting So what what, if we can erm, three more timber. We can't. I don't think we can erm, talk about timber and cereal or be willing to up the Compensate with a little bit of extra veg and fruit. Would you give us all all our requirement for veg and fruit. What would you need? Or would that be impossible. Three, three of each. Three. Three of each. Yeah. No, another three of each Yeah. So you want five of each, like. And then we'll give you and seven horses. It's not really interesting Okay. Right. Okay. So let's you're getting fifteen oil, Yeah. seven horses, five cows. Mhm. We're getting five veg, five fruit, twelve timber and what's it seven So you've got a surplus of we're giving,units. Yes. Erm. manure if they're Manure? Yeah. throw in a, after a bucket load of manure. What's a bucket load? It's about as much as you can carry. Erm. Want some sheep, they're not expensive. No, we don't want sheep. Don't want sheep, do we? No. we'll have the manure. Yeah. I don't want any sheep. up to their necks. Okay, we'll take our own couple of units, couple of units. Couple of units. And we'll be alright. Right, er, we need er, we need thirteen units of pole stakes, because we've only got sixt , you've given us twenty nine units. We want sixteen units of pole stakes. Right. So you either either sell back to our sixteen units of poles and let us stay the night, or come back again tomorrow. Oh. It's an imposition. Oh, right, sorry, right. We can help you shut yourself over if you don't want to Yeah, that's basically. I believe two journeys, so we've got to come to you vice-versa, so I think Well if you've got if you've got sixteen units of space, if you come over with effectively, sixteen units of your, you know, agree to supply us with. Yeah. Erm, then you can take sixteen of our units in your boat and we'll take the surplus, which is I imagine two of our boats, erm, if we come over with all three, effectively, which is twenty-one, if you can, of ours. Making us a space to come back again. Yeah. Mm. I dont see why that's Yeah Which won't mean that sixteen units . So if we send two boats over, Mm. We then asked them to already booked. So do you have all you want, know. Erm, no, but we're ready to settle on what we've got. Same here. Mm. Where where abouts are you short? Well, obviously we would have liked a erm a lot more oil, oil, we got the oil, ain't we, the horses Yeah, the horses. But erm. So you got seven horses. Mm. Got enough to get us by. Yeah, we've got it all no problem. Yeah. Pleas pleasure doing business with you. The pleasure was ours, entirely. I'm afraid the tide has now turned, and er, this negotiation will have to come to an end. There are some friends who are a get who get drowned, whichever ones that travel, so. Thank you for your negotiation. In terms of sort of feedback, with er, in the er, provisional way, of Sort of Yeah. Okay, let's start with the objectives. What sort of things were you Hoping to get out of that negotiation? Perhaps we'll start with and then we'll ask . What was some of the things you were after from that negotiation. We knew what our were, were something like what they're they're requirements were. Okay. So you had minimums, maximums Yeah. For each item. Mm. There, and you want to ascertain their requirements. Mhm. Any other objectives Some negotiating with achieving some compromise at the end of the day. Okay, so to negotiate and achieve some sort of compromise what are your objectives? Er, what, we didn't get a discussion, what we decided was erm, because it was in negotiation Right. So I would be best to lay lay down the law straight away, what we needed, and what we didn't need. Right. Erm,we knew exac we knew what we wanted, what we got. Right. We thought that's the only thing possible, and flexible as possible. Right. Because at once, that we we intend to satisfy okay. So we could have sold, like have the cereals and the timber. So that, there was some key objectives within that, some more important issues, that concerned the others. Okay. Can I ask generally, how did you feel at the end of that negotiations. Did you both feel you got what you wanted, got more than you wanted, less than you wanted. We didn't get what we wanted, obviously. Right. Got top line maybe. Got more than the bottom line. Yeah. Yeah. So some satisfaction of the outcome. Mhm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So you were somewhere between the top and the bottom line again on this Yeah. This negotiation. There's something, there's something Sorry. Perhaps we had, or we had no idea what they had to offer. Yeah. Right, okay. So you felt you were probably nearer the top line, than than the bottom line. Perhaps not trying, probably probably knew. Because if you did, there's no top line. shot myself first. We did, we did, sort of, with only the horses, erm, so we lost out that way. Obviously they couldn't give us I mean, some of these who could be passed round to see, to get the size, but some of these, in fact the grand total does not equal by the teams needs, in courses that's why they are unsuccessful. In fact, fifteen horses, was it fifteen horses Er, yeah. Yeah. sacrifice the horses. Sorry ten horses. Ten horses available. Fifteen needed. So some of those are items you can't satisfy what you need, anyway, so it's gonna obviously have to be, somebody's got to go and satisfy some of those. But look at the negotiation you did, what were you doing well, what were some of the things that you needed most strength. We were gonna have, if both sides knew that it was mutual benefit, we would handle, say, furniture. Right. What do you think to establish that? How do you establish that? Erm, Well, the initial boundaries, Yeah. you know the openings, Well, I I suggested to so. Right. I think you're right, we were saying a little bit earlier, that. At the outset, some things are bit like a first round of a sparing match. Didn't come across like that, I think, There may well be because of that. Right. Well, let's let's have class three on the table, and the on is, erm, Yes, but we decided that we would ask them what, they could offer us first, or what they wanted, that is. Right. Before we actually Put your cards on the table. For our part we wanted to know what they wanted, first. So that was a deliberate strategy, in fact, they did it early anyway. Yeah, that's right. Okay. So it was never been an honest sort of work relationship, from the outset. So that's working well. What else? That's working well. Okay, I think you both recognise that we're gonna have to make, but we realise it then, in the case of horses there are only ten possible, Yes. And fifteen were needed. Right. So we would have have to make sacrifices in some respects. Right, so you recognised early on, that you would have to make a move for some of the stances that you wanted. So there's er, there's er an important movement, actually. Yes. Any other things, see you doing well. We actually saw alternatives to what we were after. We could sacrifice, ought to get rid of some of the horses, and the cows and, we were quite willing to throw in the sheep, because that would reduced only to cereals, Right. In the hope of perhaps pushing up the timber and the fruit and veg. Right. I mean, there were certainly elements of creativity, I think, there's was at the beginning, I heard about coal fire stations. That was me. Yes. I mean, there are plenty of options with this station, including, in fact, you could actually float the timber across, you don't actually carry it on the boat, you tie it to the back and float it across. Same with your barrels, if you want to transport barrels. Maybe get your horses to swim across. All those sort of things, that are maybe options, creative options, the ways round it, linking issues together. Maybe you find a new Any others? Strengths. Things that are working well. Right, the actually, yeah the effectual record within negotiations. Can I just check out, how do you think roles within the teams. We both erm, needed a spokesperson. Right. Chief spokesperson here, another chief spokesperson there. Yes. Any other roles you'd delegate? In fact, that was only done as I walked through the door. There was something I saw, and I don't know whether it was deliberate or not. Erm, but take this team, there was somebody feeding information into the slowest person, Mm. They were actually say, no we can't do that, or yes we can do that. Erm, that may or may not have been deliberate, but it's very important, particularly within a group, erm of people in negotiation, who were clear about roles, and when I was out on the road, I used to occasionally take the out, and I'd go and see my broker and erm, I'd say, oh we love to do fish and chip shops, we love insuring fish and chip shops. And the sort of had a blue fit, and sort of say, no we don't, and very quickly you've got to mixed message. If you're not clear about the roles, and who gonna say what, you can end up actually totally competing each other. Anything else that we Erm, no. So, save a lot of things going to areas that you might do different then. Limitations. Areas I don't know if it's a limitation, but it's certainly a weakness that I didn't trust, trust them, that's what they were saying, they surprised. So you actually found yourself not trusting what was going on. Even now, I don't know, I don't, you just said that there's stuff finance survive. It doesn't matter. No, until you said that, I still didn't, didn't trust them. Poor Tim. I'm sure you trust I'll cover you. Were you aware that you weren't trusted. Yes. Yes. in what way? A bit pushy with the horses, you know, are you sure you can't, you know. Yeah. It's this sort of thing, I, well I'm sure you said that. And get quite didn't you say, eight horses or something,fifteen. Okay, so you felt, didn't trust them, they were were aware that you weren't trusting them. How do you think that helps under negotiation. Can't do anything. Right. What would you do differently in the future? Try and get more trust in the outset. I bet you you reach a certain stage where, you realise I don't trust you, which I suppose we could have asked him outright, how many have they got , and how many we need. Yeah, I mean, it could have been done with real honesty, but Mm. But then we still wouldn't have known. Well, that's right. the specific answer or not But is it driving a business. They got what they wanted, they got. decide that. I mean, you could have asked the same about us, on a lot of things. And it maybe about a relationship that will build up with these people over a period of time and I know it's expensive as negotiation. You think about salesmen who've got ongoing relationship with their client. It maybe faithful for a long time, perhaps you build up that trust, and it's only once you've got beyond that, that you can then begin to actually influence er, negotiate with them. I think would have probably, had more, if we'd had more time and reversed all and been clearer on our roles. Right. So that when they said, are you sure you've only got x number of horses. We would have said, well, of course we have, because of, you know, we would had reasons and facts Mm. Perhaps to back that up. Albeit lies, but convincing. Right. So you reckon if you had more time to think about an overall, sort of, web, if you like, of Deceit. deceits Well, now you've put the words in my mouth,convincing lies, that is a ringer, I mean, nothing but the truth. I'm sure it matters Yeah, I think you're right, but I think you had certainly time there enabled those to be dealt with more effectively. Any other areas, didn't do so well. We really needed a bit more of an introduction. Erm, another day, when you tried to set some, and we were all dying, and we kept carry on going, but we could have said somebody would on to each other, or whatever Mm. Sort of, priorities. This perhaps ties into to that one a bit as well. It's about the rapport, it's about the introduction, it's about how we actually settle the thing from the outset. Yeah. Anything else. A little bit more when somebody said to me. Yes, You said welcome to, wherever it was you know, we thought you came to us. Yes, but that's deliberately set up, that is. To get you to work at that. We see when we're introducing negotiation. If you're giving things away, give things away of low value to you, but of high value to them. Were there any things that were given away, that might be of high value to the opposition, given away for less than nothing. Fruit and veg. Fruit and veg, might be one example. There's another one as well, and it was actually from this side, given away, but wasn't received by this side. Barrels. Yeah, the barrels, I mean, of of no value, I think to, a layman because Craftsmen are experts in making barrels from the wood of trees, you have the use of barrels, except for storing the oil, you now have a large quantity of barrels available. I think we oil,so we didn't want them. Right. We're seeping Oh, right. I think, this group but we don't want to attack it. Don't want them, it actually lowers Mm. The value to this team. Erm, I can't remember what happened at the end, if you were tempted to the barrel as well. No, we didn't. In fact, you probably needed some barrels, and I'm sure or were given away. It's gett , it's thinking about, you know, barrels, yeah, well everyone is giving them away. Perhaps your was thinking. See, we'd given away all our oil, so we didn't need any barrels, and they were aware that the oil was a storage problem. Yeah. But there wasn't normally storage problems,normally had spare,seep out of the ground in, so we'll be alright. Okay. In terms of the sort of, negotiation, were there any stages, when people were not telling you about It got a bit confusing, writing it all down. Yeah. And trying to and see who was winning it and who was losing, you know, what the score was. Right. Three more units You know, we don't eat confuse would it. Come on, see what you a bit. I don't think Certainly confused about, is how many horses Yes, that was our side. We we started off ten, aw, ten, Right, so I think, on some occasions there was some confusion, although towards the end, it was certainly quite Yeah, we do summarise where, what the mistake was. Yes. And see if there was any further room. Certainly I think there were summaries in that note Yeah, it was difficult for to be negotiating and to keep up with where we were. Mm. Right. Yes. Yeah. Because it's going along so fast. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there were a couple of occasions, when he got a cheap negotiator, other people joined in as well, and then, I don't know, you got three or four different All got views as well. I know it's something that's particularly welcome here, but it's quite important to think about seeking positions, rather than negotiation, otherwise it's set up in here. This negotiation. Space. It's very them them and us. Might be worth just thinking about that for me, actually, have a a future negotiation. When I negotiate this person, they always go and sit across the desk. Maybe they don't like that. Maybe that comes in with a hat that says, Authoritarian, disciplined type of interview. And if I did come and sit face to face across the desk, it would have a discipline. I think if you were gonna s use any other situation to this, with the quantity of information that you'd have to, to record, as we're going through, Mm. Would have to be er probably a lot lower, this would probably be a maximum, because, I felt I needed a bit of time, to just sort of, you know, pass information. Yeah. And obviously if you playing cards close to your chest, you need something like this to sort of be able, you know, Yeah, I mean, that's going, that it's actually quite powerful situations, normally er you got roles worked out, and exactly who's doing what. At times, I just take a breather, actually stop and say, yeah hang on a minute, let's just walk through and work out what's going on. Okay, any other sort of areas you'd like to think about for the future. No. Not somebody else. this morning. this morning. I think preparation is is quite important. Yeah. Erm, we tend to get it it's just an exercise, but it proved a point that even in twenty minutes we were, we'd only got through only got through to doing ideals, Right. or fall-back and realistic, we didn't get any further than that. Just making it up as we went along. You're right, erm, certainly an exercise twenty minutes, is about time, special timescale, but again a bit more time, might actually. Yeah. Well I I was doing Yeah, you gotta be the same. He used to spend hours Yeah, you end up caving in, because you think, oh, I've got a timescale, I've got to do something and actually cave in. I think, because maybe you haven't been flexible at the outset, and all you've ended up doing is scoring points off each other, Mm. for the first nineteen and a half minutes. Quite like that Then again if you're I think the only thing on that I would say is that,creativity in as a positive, erm, that that your there are loads of possibilities about how you could actually try and create situations, which would actually break down barrier, one of the barriers you had was, I'll give you one if you give me one. Yeah. You've actually got into number counting. Erm, there are other aspects about that that you could afford break that down, I know there was sheep,cows, for instance. I know the outlook. Well, we thought that. Er, you know, what could you do with it. Erm, maybe since the rams are a problem on the island, maybe you could get the horses over here, to work part of the year, and then foal, er, then you'll an agreement to have some of the foals back. I don't know, you know, erm, think about options, think about. One of the problems is when they're starting to optimistically with tunnel vision. Take those blue out there, sideways. Erm, but still getting, but we maybe getting a broader front on either focus too narrow a beam, sometimes it's too difficult to get that narrow boat to be on exactly the right spot. So keep creative can work. Yeah, it's issues, quite often as well. I remember when I was out on the road, I had a particular connection with, we had a motor bike policy, and it was an appalling risk, and it came up for renewal, and er, nobody had take it round the market, and I mean, that that was an idol threat, because nobody in their right mind would want this particular motor and we said, well not if they want to jack up the premium on it, they wanted to jack it up by about thirty or forty per cent, and and the broker was not very happy about this. But I said, alright, well we'll consider it, so long as you let us quote for the rest of the business. Erm, and if we actually get the rest of the business, we keep the motor pre premium down, at ten per cent increase, if we don't we're jacking it up by forty per cent. So, in fact, it's tying the two things together, and getting both bits of business. The motor is completely rubbish,won't be rubbish, but the profit bit is actually quite good. So it's actually sometimes thinking about, can I tie in something else to this, which may bring the whole picture, bring it all together, but be creative. Thinking things out. But perhaps one other thing, I mean, it's all useful. I don't know how many times I have to say, that we've we've been there and we know all about this. But,didn't work out. Erm, my story of this, was I I failed to recognise the role status. I at roles, and at one stage I almost did. Er, the secretary gets out of her chair, and she while I have a look, and you can hear annual negotiation, and er, and the golden rule for negotiating was er looking at your list up there, and he was a boss, he was also working as a colleague, he was even a friend. He of friends,and I thought well, when we're going into this, you know, he's obviously coming in as a colleague, because actually he was a member of the same damn union. And it was a ridiculous situation,so I went along and said er, look Jack er, we're going to go into the annual palaver, I mean, you know,very high inflation. I said, you're gonna come in at two per cent, and I'm gonna come in at twenty-two, and we both know that actually we're gonna up finish between eight and a half and nine, don't we? Which we did. I said, so so shall we actually save each other time, and we'll both come in with reasonable, reasonable, till we open our pay, you know,erm, stand-points, and he said, yeah, all right. So we, we went away, putting our package together, and we went in we sat in the either end of the table. He said, you've got er, your package for this year, as requested. I said, yes, here it is. And he said good, and here's ours, and we passed them along the table, and we wrote down two point six, I said excuse me, could I just have that back, there's a slight typing error, excuse me, sorry twenty-two per cent. And of course, we settled at eight point six two or something ridiculous. I mean, we were exactly where we said we were gonna be, but suddenly I didn't realise that he was boss. He had to show other people, that he had gone because that was what boss's did. Mm. And he had to do that every year in order to satisfy his stance his hat that he was wearing, that he was actually being the boss, and knocking the workers down, look I'm holding down, what twenty-two point on six, er and he believed that my need was that I could go back to my manager, and say, look I got him up to two point one,. Erm, we both had something to gain, but equally we had something to lose and maybe that's the sort of things, we think about to change the cost. The cost of doing that it was too high for him. safest,reputation, so he couldn't do it, he couldn't change so, I've been there. It won't always work, if you think you've Shall we begin to pass out the oppositions team. Who are you, you are,what's your name,touch of the old garden, touch of the old garden, do you. Good Okay. In terms, of sort of where we are in the course, we spent yesterday having a look at, and yes this morning, having a look at planning for England. And we spent having a look at some skills, In terms of listening terms. Getting down to specific information and in terms of negotiation. The fun part of the course tomorrow morning, it actually involves you in doing a role play, with one of your colleagues. Your colleague plays your person your trying to influence, you obviously play yourself, trying to influence them. Now we're looking for tomorrow for about a twenty minute or so role play. And if you're still going after twenty minutes or so, we'll stop you. Which doesn't really matter, because just we're just looking at a snap-shot of actually going on. So tonight you're actually to do a little bit of discussion, and tonight, tomorrow morning, discussion with your colleague, to brief them in terms of what they need to do to fulfil that role. How they actually need to play it. Erm, but we aren't going to the sort of, end of degree, that er, I say this, and then you sort of enter stage left and say this, and I respond like this, and then erm, something else happens, and then somebody comes crashing in through the door. It's er, obviously, you'll need to give them a briefing, so they can play the character, but to the end of degree, 'cos you'll need to respond to things that they say, as indeed, you'll have to back in influencing situation, back in your own department, back in your own ground. So think about, in terms of preparation, for the influencing situation, but what are some of the things you might want to do. Not that I want you to agree with your colleague, but check perhaps, particularly for a bearing yourself. What are some of the things you want to think about for tomorrow. Er, exercise? Structure. Right. Need to think about a structure. Okay. What in particular on that? How you'll introduce certain people. Right, in terms of the of the dealing with the intro. Anything else? Terms of the structure. Whether you're gonna do all the talking, or whether you're gonna write down ideas. Right Okay, so whose ideas, whose contribution. So we've got an introduction. Anything else. Terms of the structure. What you're negotiating points are, all about the See the negotiator stance. Position, if you like. Yeah. Anything else? structure. about introductions. Might need to think about what are some of the things, that I would want to have as a conclusion. Lead to that, certainly. But whereabouts do you hope to be at the end of twenty minutes, however long we've got. What other things might you want to be thinking about, in terms of preparation for this one. erm, outcomes. Right, yeah, outcomes, perhaps you're looking for. Yeah. Which is again related back back to that. I mean, a whole variety of other things from erm, put ten extra staff to erm, it could be, that actually I just open the doors, so that ne next time I could actually go back in. That's that's measurable. Some are very clearly measurable, but nevertheless measurable. Any other things that might be in terms of preparation. Anticipate what they might say. Right, there's a bit of about anticipation. Yeah. Anything else. Right. Anybody else wanting to be talking last day of term, it might be worthwhile now. Don't you think. Surely is. Difference in roles. Right. It's it's about roles. Where am I coming from? What kind of role. And not only that, but where are they coming from, and how do I signal who I am? And indeed, if I'm in a different role to what I am normally. How do I make that particularly clear? They always see me as The Boss, and I don't want to The Boss. What are some of the ways that I can actually make that clear. Anything else? Perhaps just a couple of others, you may want to think about things like Questions. Let's have a few questions up our sleeve. Maybe some avenues, that we want to explore. You might want to think about things like that. What I also want to think about the model, the positive outcomes, remember that. If, maybe I've got a negative outcome to the relationship to this one, are there any things I or positive. So maybe I'll start off, maybe memories after you are only plans, start off with some positive plans. And you'll start working round something there. So that you can think about er positive outlook is one of them. So perhaps, a host of things to think about in terms of preparation, maybe not all of those are gonna be suitable, a relevant few, preparation this evening, but perhaps, if focusing in at least some of those, might help to to give you the opportunity to persuade to influence your colleague. I think the only thing I'll say, you know, it's been a real odd situation, really,horse for your bit, you reckon how well do I know this person. The bit on the video, something to do with that bit, where she says to him, What did, what are you going to say? And what's he going to say to that. And what are you going to there. If she suddenly erm, you gonna have to, sort of, do this, I think it's ridiculous, but you know. You find a very very small group, and erm, perhaps you can do this yourself. Sounds ridiculous, but you say, oh erm, you're not gonna like this, and he's gonna say, bloody right I don't like you. So that's not good news Erm, if I can show the way of overcoming that problem, how, would you be interested, and you say, that problem's always been difficult for me, you know what can I say then, can't say, you ready to train yourself to think, you know, physically you a little bit of actually, putting yourself in their world. Remember you've got to influence them in their world, you can't just live in your own. You'll be very good, if left carrying on in their own world, for the rest of their time. Just think about it, I mean, in a real life situation, think about, ought you think about, imagine what how much do you know about, do you need to use your network, to find out what I do that but curtain across the window in case you get what is it. So how do you get neighbours as a senior employee there,you sell tickets to them. Okay, so a whole of things to think about, certainly for the role plays tomorrow but, indeed, for a situation back in the real world. Okay, well maybe we could have called it a day now. However, what we're gonna do, is usually at nine o'clock in the morning er, ready to start filming. I think, has everybody got their pair, who they're working with, The person you've been working with over the last couple of days. That's alright, we can we can swap them round, I think, if we have them play first in one group and . I think we could work We'll work something out about what what's gonna happen. Work work with your pair, erm, for now, and overnight, what we'd like you do is, obviously decide for yourself your strategy, but also if you can brief your other half, as to how they need to play that role, to get you the best opportunity of practising the skills. Now I'm not looking to people to be totally bloody minded, erm, but I'm gonna for people to sort of totally cave in, erm, with these newly acquired influencing skills, because as we've said all along, they will work on some occasions, but they're not gonna work all the time. So, you need to make your colleague work for what they get, without being totally sort of bloody minded. But actually just cave in. Looking for about twenty minutes or so. Erm,to get some feedback at the end of those. Okay. Anything else Now, just before we all er disappear, can I just quickly check what we want to do about the departure. I guess there's only six of us, who probably finish about mid-day tomorrow, erm, of which time there are various options. Erm, you can have a twelve o'clock bus, if you wanted to sort of flee your premises, with a packed lunch, or without a packed lunch, if you er, if you don't want to do that. If you want to have a lunch, and then to just shoot off afterwards, we would probably get you in the staff lunch, I should think but I'll need to check that, if not you'll have to wait till half past twelve, to have a, to have a lunch. Or erm, no, that's it, that's the various options. Mm. . I think I'm gonna have lunch at one, so Right okay, we'll put you down for twelve. So that what we did was, first of all when you filled in your initial choice and then we got a a team choice and now perhaps, what would make a lot of sense is that if we have the first few er team answers one member of this team er, and then we'll go through the others. And alright the one thing we will certainly mark is that the answer which you get does depend on the way in which you read some of the statements or some of the principles. Erm, but what I wanted us to do is to start getting some discussion going and, so that you're actually getting a bit closer to one another. Let's go through this team here. You can do it Mary, if you like. What, what did you get for the fir , or what did you reckon the first set of claims you decided wanted to be accomplished. Truth. Everybody agree with truth. Yes. Yeah. Yes. Yes. I think so. Erm and that's not just in selling, is it? I mean that's in everything. Er you get,sa instructor and they say that if a training course which is gonna start at half past eight on February the tenth, erm yeah well that's what we gotta do then you gotta start looking to the planning towards haven't you? And you gotta there, when you gotta there, and so on and so on. So he gets the first and decide what you wanna get to. But if you don't do that, any road'll get you there. And I think that's something that we'll certainly discuss tomorrow, on Thursday. If you are, what I want you to do is to, to create a, a team plan and the first thing we need to decide in that team plan is where do we wanna get? What do we wanna do? Not, we wanna increase sales because everybody wants to do that, but if we've gotta increase sales, by what? Is it five percent? Ten percent? Thirty percent? We wanna get more, you know, there's th ,thi thi this er, there is no point really in saying things like, what I'd like to do is to improve the quality of the appointments because that don't tell you anything. It has to be some solid reason. Some absolute measurable thing. Okay. Any, any customers been another customer at all? All of us. All of us. Yes I think so. I think so. Otherwise, we'd have all the I'd be, be discussing what it is. Right ! Means testing. They're sort of sales for sales sake. Yeah. Oh. I'm Erm just being awkward. I, well there's nothing wrong with that. As you know. There's nothing wrong with that. I mean we've all, we've all seen the results of any customer who's a bit of a nervous so sort haven't we? Well, that's putting that well I think we have. Dave I think. As sorts. Yeah, you dru , you draw up one aren't you? Mm mm. Yeah. That's right. Yes. I mean, it's er it's wo , that's one we refer to as the Donnis mobile cos we can use that when the American Express comes through. Erm, but the er, yes any customer know, knows when you're talking a load of nonsense. Erm thought so didn't they? True. A salesperson should never abandon hope of winning an account. Which is really great! Woo hoo! That's a good one isn't it? Well you have to something there. Does anybody, everybody think true? No. Yeah. Yeah , times change don't they? Yeah. Buyers change, companies change, attitudes change, markets change. Our Yep. Yes, they go off. What about this one? We'll ask Linda this time, when it says good plans, sell, require, retain. I put false. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think that has to be the chain. Yeah. Because it might be a good plan today Mm. But I wonder how good it is tomorrow? You know, with things changing and that, and that. Ah! Here's a nice one. Hmm. Erm Mm. right, the effective sales person puts most of his or her effort into prospecting for new accounts? False. False. True. I put true. True. Somebody else er you're prospecting rather than using your current What about your time plan this morning? The sheets, the sheets this morning proved that. Yeah. Three hours prospecting on the B L S and three hours prospecting from from nine o'clock till twelve. Yeah. That's six hours prospecting. I put true. I'm, I'm with you lads. Yeah? Er, you did er have sort of fair factual discussion then? I were only one Yeah. who put true. Right. These, put Yes, I'd have thought it was true. Erm True. I'd have thought that what is, what is I'm not saying , obviously if somebody existing based on that . That is, that is right. You have to look after your existing customers of course whether they are Well you see most of us don't do this. It doesn't say time Peter, it says effort. That's right. Effort. Yeah. Yeah, but you put, you must be putting about five hours effort of a day into prospecting accounts. Three hours, nine till twelve prospecting or cold calling whatever you wanna call it. Another two, three hours of doing But this. Yeah, but you look when you're receiving the trade from the prospecting when you receive your trade from a prospect you have this amount of trade in and this amount of prospect and your telling me if I have half trade in and half prospect, I'd like to see the difference in how much time you spent on Yeah but on each one. yeah but the thing is you don't do it, it's a You don't have a , you don't have a se se So you prospect. Yeah but if you did, yeah but it's a very difficult question. Effort and then a prospect an area where you want Yeah. to, you've got time there Yeah but you do, well you do actually measure a regular more distance. At the end of the day you do need to get business Well I put in. yeah, but there's no point in losing business for new business. That's true. But we're not saying that. But it's Yeah, but if if actually time spent prospecting. It's not time if . Yeah. Then, then Even though it's not. It's not. Well I think that's, I think you can categorize, you can say right e , the effectiveness is if you spend seventy five percent of your effort getting prospect accounts on, but you still use twenty five percent of it, to, to Yeah. Exactly. To retain existing, then you're still gonna be paying the business on and you're still gonna be able to look after er Right. the existing. You just, it's just I don't know. whether you get that one percent What d'ya think? a fortnight Sorry? it makes no What d'ya think? difference. What do I think? Yeah, but John when you say the word What d'ya think? effort you want . I think if Tom was sat there it would be ninety percent. You know? Because he, he didn't He just . really wanna be in on anything else but except business. Right. Once you shared the time. Honestly. Number six then. I'm happy to be . Maximizing sales volume is the most important task of the sales person? Oh, solely. False, you put here. I put false here . Well, I think you need to recognize that really sales volume is, it it takes us back again to the fact that any customer is better than no customer at all. We were saying, we were just saying maximizing sales as in more otherwise it's sales potential rather Yes. than Er er, er what we're, what Maximizing what we've got. what we are about, or what every sales company should be about is making money. Yeah. And, er er and just increasing sales volume, or maximizing sales volume ain't gonna do it. Ah we ought to more or less max , maximize the Yeah. sales figures Right. It's, it's maximizing the sale of the revenue and, and rising the revenue is what we talked about. Oh yes, that one. What's it called? So a resistance can be used with that and of course it indicates interest in the product? True. True. All the time that, that's what Yeah. an objection is. Mhm. And I think that's, there's something which we most of us fear. I hope not. So the resistance is diminished by stretching the novel features of a new product? Jane? Mm. What do you think? Agree. We had a I think discussion about this as well. I think we misunderstood novel features as a bad thing to be honest. Yes, we were saying we we can No, but you, we we were asking about . you can Novel features. you can overcome objections Novel is the word there. by offering the benefits of a product. Not necessarily novel though is it? No, no, that's what I'm saying novel, that's why novel's the key word. Novel . What have you got the one right wing here? Nothing at all. Yeah. But well I had , well I had er er false at first and then we had a big discussion about it. Yeah, right. We had false particularly until we, new product coming out. I would think that was false to be honest. Yeah. Er It's the novel, that did it. And well Yeah, yeah. I think what happens all the time, I understand why, if you put true you me , you you put it was that the one thing that sales people always desperately want is something new. Okay? Er,differently, that's not new. Erm, and I think that probably er, I think that's false but it's er interesting discussion. Yes. Er when a sales person closes he, though I suppose I should say, that he or she should use that closing technique which is most suited to his or her personality? This is the one we were debating. Yeah. I had true, but I got outnumbered I had true. so I put a false in that one. You got outnumbered. Right. I had true. I had true. Said false. Me and David said false. True. What, what should we be co considering the customer at any time? You see, in my view each, each customer is different. You don't close the same way with every customer. Right. So is it the fact that the that what th th th the close should be most suited to the customer Yeah. Yeah. rather than ourselves? Yeah. That'd be fair I think. Because you close with your own personality anyway don't you really? Right. I think And also , he's buying you as well as he's buying the product. Yes, I think so, I think, that is of course, I I think that erm that the close which you use Yeah. has to be geared to the customer. Er, and not your personality. And this is a nice one then isn't it? The direct close the most successful technique because it's the most honest. Don't ask us. Don't ask us. No. Pretty good was it? Yeah. We got anti That's right. That's right. What about this side? Well we got true, but I True. would say false. I would say false as well. He said true and we said true. He's , well we start off with that. Oh I'll let you off. It's an interesting one because er er, really the thing,th the sentence goes, or the, the principle works very well until you get to the word honest. Yeah. That's right. Exactly. That's what we're laughing at. Bingo! That's what we're arguing on. What the hell's honesty got to do with it? Ah I I think er The most obvious. Yes, that's right. I'm not sure that honesty's a word which I would er don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting that a salesman's dishonest, don't think that. What I am suggesting though I think is that you know, a close which is referred to as being the best of course is th the most honest is the Yeah the Well well Peter can, can't you remember Espinear formula? Yes. Where we were dru , the spi , the Espinear used to be drummed down for about five, six, seven years. That's right. So he would have known. That's right. Assuming the Actually you could have gone to the A M Express conference and heard it. I played a cowboy actually talking about Espinear close. Espinear assuming that it is question physical action judgements trapped the narrative close,and ask for the order. That's right. So How did you memorize that? Because that's the way you learnt it. Used to be in all the quizzes. That's right. Ever heard Yeah. of a Espinear close That's right. What do They all can . After you. everybody can remember what it stands for but they can't do it . That's right. Well, ask for the order it is. Yeah. That's right. They all er ask for the order It's the,i the di , they used the word honest . No. Ah sure well that,th th that's, that's what, but anyway, as long as it created discussion, that was the point of it. And good product of service will sell itself? False. No. No. No, that'll be the day won't it? False. Yeah. False that one is. A knowledge of human psychology is important when False again. selling? Now then that's Only one of the seven up here, we all said true. True. But bear in mind she's, you know, she's walked out of the That's right. So what do you think of that? I think we all feel that's true don't we? I do. Apart from the odd er fact and most of research we don't need erm, we don't need a degree in it, but some . Other people's problems. It's a Yeah I do. Cos last time I'm going, anyway. with the exact same sheet that I did to start with. You said we didn't need anything because I Social skills true last time Right. and it was We're not getting rid of that now. Social skills are relatively unimportant for a salesperson? False. I think we need certain social skills don't you? Yes. Erm, and more so on the telephone than we ought and more on the telephone than some, sometimes we do er erm face to face. A person does not buy the product but rather buy what it'll do for him or her. True. Yes, that's right. A former customer, one who no longer buys anything is of little value? False. False. Yeah. I think so. Cos he changes doesn't he? And er okay? Right, well let's generate the do , discussion and er get you all er involved in something else for three quarters of an hour. Right. I want now to show you this er film then, and there's no point in having Alright we're taking on everything. Doing far more than we can reasonably do and if you like, doing it by very definition, badly, or worse than it could have done. Right, that's one message that comes out of it. What else? Slow. No effort. Right. There's no thinking time at all is there? No. Right. Okay. No, there's no planning or nothing's diarized. Everything's all No plan. Mm. No diary. There's, there's no concentration Yeah. no concentration with the job in hand. Everything Looks like me and Jack . distracts him from what he's doing and he the distraction. The what? No plans. No details. Never saw one job through. Mm mm. He kept on doing one job . Yeah, instead of, instead of from One from the other. from start to finish he didn't just Finish one job at a time. finish one job. In which Yeah. it would one job less to do. So, this fact that there's no plan, or appeared to be no diary although there was a diary wasn't there? He had stuff wrote Yeah, down on it. Yeah, and he didn't, he didn't listen to any of the people Yeah. what the people Ha! had to say, he just just said yes, yes, all afternoon. Yeah, he just Right. kept saying yes to everything just to barge them off. He didn't listen did he? No. No, no, not at all. He had too many interruptions. Hmm. Er we said the, said ignoring the needs. Mm. Where was that? Well his secretary when he was on Yeah. the phone. Yeah. And he kept checking up. And he The guy in sort of hung up on him. the guy in the car park when he forgot to ring him back about some important business. The managing director? He kept ringing. Yeah. The managing director spoke from the car and he never followed it up . And he kept That's right. he wanted to be the decision maker, and he wanted to make the decision on every single thing himself and then he was turning round and saying to his secretary, well can't you do anything? Do I have to do everything? Whereby he, had obviously made it clear from the start Mm. he was the only one with the authority. He kept checking up on erm Not that he trusted anyone either because when they were doing the wages kept checking up on people's like erm capabilities as well instead of getting on with his own job he kept checking up on their them all as well. So he's checking up on everybody? Yeah. Even if he lets them do something. Mm. Mhm. The wages, he didn't trust her with the wages. He messed about on the calculator. That's right. You'd expect a wages clerk to be able to handle it wouldn't you? Yeah. Er, and also that er when he went into Hmm! appointment he erm he let, he let the client take over the the call because he wasn't erm prepared enough when he weren't there. Right, so when he went in to see somebody he had That's it. done no preparation at all No. had he? No. He, he didn't know why he was there did he? He wanted five percent discount didn't he? Told him, selling a million pounds worth of flour e er flour a year and he had his twenty first coming up and apparently,he starts spilling the beans Good. on how much he had really . That's right. Er He doesn't a great deal with the, the guy cos he . So when he says no plan here, so it's not only no plans in the day it filtered through to His work. Yeah. Everything. his his , everyday work as well. Yeah. Mm. He just pu , he just kept putting off important things as well. That's right. And end, end up with Er, yeah, I think, I think it's this stress that he felt he was under which led him to panic. You could just see him getting more and more het up but if he just sort of sat down and wrote things down what he'd got to do and do, try and do them in a set order. Mhm. Mm. Yeah. That Mr was a And I, I mean that was the root problem really. That's it. But Mr Mm. the director had him wrapped round his little finger for that five percent. Didn't he? Yeah. Mm. What did he say tha then? Because, he really believes, what was that bit? Well he was just telling er Mr The person was telling him or or or the ? Th , no he was telling the customer he was selling a million pounds worth of flour a year and that and I, I've got a twenty first birthday er, you know,wi , coming up, party well after that. Aha. He's not worried about that, he just Yeah. wants his five percent. Yeah. That's right. That's right. So there's no, no preparation a at all Oh no. on that er particular er interview was there? He didn't he also didn't let people know what he was doing as well. Didn't keep staff informed. Did what? Didn't keep his staff informed of what was happening. Just, just expected them to know. Didn't tell them. When he met those three people He didn't so so Yeah, he didn't tell anyone about that. he didn't, and the guy didn't ask him . But why didn't he tell anybody about ? Cos he was scared, embarrassed. He was embarrassed wasn't he? Yeah. Didn't wanna tell anybody about it cos he knew they, they they could say well can't you organize things better than that? What's the real sub total now of this guy of ours? Right, so there's He had no organization. None at all, I mean he he when he saw John Cleese on that erm computer, said what's that? He didn't know. Way behind it. He was really sort of ignorant about things like that. That's right. He was way behind with the technology. He thought he was helping everybody and doing everything for himself but he weren't, he was stopping He was just like a hindrance wasn't he ? what are we doing? Yeah. He was causing more problems. Yeah. Yeah. That's what happens. He's trying to be all things to all men isn't he? Yeah. Yeah. And doing it's not so much that you're doing everything wrong, it's just the one thing which being done right is that the other way of putting it that, the guy because he's so well organized what effect does that have on everybody else then? It snowballs doesn't it? It throws everyone out. They're like chasing their tails cos they're the ones who Yeah. They're not as stressed as he is at the end of the day because . Well it it throws everybody else around you. That's right. They Linda? Yes Linda? Cos he keeps starting something and then he shouts something else comes back and then you but you end up doing, nothing gets done. Yes. I see. What effect did it have on his private life? He sa , he missed a party and missed a sa a child's party and er what have you. He planned to go out for dinner Well he's just so organized there. he planned to go out for dinner, he's even forgot about that as well. With He his wife. but he lives with this he doesn't really make time for anything. Yes. You see, it's, it's very difficult isn't it, that that we probably spend a third of our life at work which makes it very important. Erm by, as many definitions we spend a third of our lives at work,whe where you spend the other two thirds? Bed. And and so we've got the other two thirds this between, getting to bed and and spending it with the, the, the family. And if you can't organize yourself at work then it's a ten to a penny that you can't organize the other bits either. And, and so what happens is th the whole thing just keep, it's just compounded worser , it just gets worse and worse and worse and worse. Now I'm not suggesting for one moment that anybody who has all the problems that dear Mr has there, but I think we might be able to learn something, do you? Yeah. We might be able to pack, put one or two things into some sort of order. What I want to do today, what I've been trying to do today is to spend that time looking at certain aspects of the way the business works, the way you work. You are very important people, you are running one million pound a year businesses. And also for all of us to learn something about each other. Because you're spending all day together, and we'll keep breaking you off into, in twos, into your groups so that you can learn any more about one another. And also, of course, you've got the sort of social thing between you. Well I mean you don't have to see, so this you've got this sort of social thing there. You can actually learn something else about one another by normal discussions between during the course of the conversation now. What that will enable to do, I hope, is tomorrow, to spend our time trying to put some of these things right. If, if right they need to be put. If you are already working to maximum efficiency, then great! All you will have done so far is spent the two days here , eat sandwiches, followed by , said a couple of jokes and, come to that,. Friday afternoon we could and we'll have a look at . See what Colin would make of that. Though I suspect that what we will find if we really are honest with ourselves that quite a lot of things which we see here are not always exaggerated from the point of the exercise, that we exaggerate things out of all proportion so that we can actually start looking at it and seeing . We will come back to that. In fact we'll come back that a bit later this afternoon. I want to ask you to do thought you, content, based on that. I just wanna be absolutely sure that you haven't made some terribly dramatic changes in your lifestyle which are not justified by what we've done. After ? Erm no I'd like just to go through that if I can. Erm, and then I wanna give you one last exercise before we go. Not this sort of er, this sort of thing. Erm and what I want you to do tonight please, in your teams I want you to make a list tonight, in your teams of all the things you have to do at work. Okay? Everything. Lunchtimes as well? Right. It can be, yeah we had a stop for lunch, we had to have cups of tea, we had to go to ou , out the back and have a fag cos we can't smoke in the office. Write all the things you have to do. Okay? Now, don't worry about it now when you come back to this right, you can do that in the bar if you like, that okay? Bearing in mind it's a team focus course so I'm not giving you loads of work which takes you apart from one another, what we do is you talk together, and spend time together. And at the end of last week they had a . No actually it was No, I think that They er Er er, what? They, they might now Well you know actually it's a bit boring down there now but they, they had to put my, my explanation of the price of petrol er down, there's nowhere to thing, cos th the last time I was down there I asked for a pint of bitter and this guy bought it me and said and I wanted two pound thirty or something. And I said to him, do you know what they have to do a produce a gallon of petrol? And he said no, and I explained it, er, you know, first of all you created universe and then you, then you get all these very important people, geologists and they put er satellites and find th this oil underground, and then you drill, well it's usually under the sea anyway, so you produce a, and this go on and on and on until the guy's now wondering what you're talking about and then when you get the to the end of it all you sa you say and they sell that for an eighth of a price that you charge for your bloody beer! And, you know, and, there's absolutely no justification whatsoever. And, but they, er you can't do it cos they're all so bored to death with it now. Give a brief desista , description of where you get a pint of petrol from. Well, then they charge you thirty P for it. But it costs two pounds If you find nobody wants it. Yeah. Eh? Just the fact nobody wants to do it. But he wants it to go up one percent. That's what I thought. It's like that when I do my Victor Meldrew bit it's er, doesn't go down very well. Right now look,th , right, so let's just have a look erm at mutton Jeff down there, what, what have yo , what have you decided that you, your thoughts are now, strengths weaknesses or whatever, how are you gonna change? Or can you change? Er, strengths? Well, I think the first gotta be objectives. Right. Erm using team resources erm and commanding respect and you do this by enthusiasm. Right. Erm we're very good at lot of plans, practical working, and carrying out in a specific way. Yes. And a bit of a change and again, with self- discipline we're realists but we won't look at same thing Does the self-discipline actually show itself? I mean, in those, those time things that you did, those time box, did it show the self-discipline? Yeah. I think you've got to be. I thought it did show up, but I mean it wasn't part of it's a natural part of Right, so that's great. Better for everyone. Right. Right, so I want, having all these virtues and whatever What d'ya call the whingies then? Well there has to be the odd one that'll take over Peter. Yeah . In the usual way. Erm analysing problems. We seem to be more concerned with the job in hand, i e, our own team er er and not with the other teams, but if they're struggling then do offer to give them help. Right okay. That's very, very, gracious of you. Well i it should be erm,co cooperative of ourselves Right. in order to overcome any weaknesses that we may have that don't recognize Well that we've got. Right. Now based on what we've talked about so far today can you recognize any that you probably didn't think you'd got? Yeah. Or did you now recognize something you needn't of got but now somebody else has bought you that you better do something about it? Aha. And if so, what are they? Erm, I didn't, like I say I know people who erm especially with about ourselves or anybody else. Right. So there's no real sort of company worked out, erm in such details like that? We're, we're paid to do a job to get the best for everything. Right. And your best, to do Aha. sort of concentrating if you like, on that particular effort Aha. rather than wider things. Yes. And so probably what we need to think about is how you can improve your contributions to the whole thing. That's not so you, how I perform, but how you can improve your contributions there, we might have to Yeah. er er er erm, look at that. Yeah. Erm, we also, again I mean, as you say, we always look at ourselves and say we're the best team in the company. Right. Jeff's thinking that erm but then we, we put that out and get information an d so that's er, you know A team game. team game, yeah. And get ourselves Right. and then we, enable us to go on these and get a bit of information from the . Yeah. We'd like to see some signs. Give us a bit more cooperative and then Yeah. the then, then Yeah. erm sometimes that's, that's about it but to be honest Well of course it does. Sort of wandering round with your . You'll have black eyes by then. What ab about you two? How do you know he's right? How you actually feel? Well I, well I say, we've looked at it slightly different because we've only, we've only worked together for five weeks. Right. Erm, so what we wanted to do was, we've had we're doing quite well with the ov , erm, the five weeks we've been together but we wanna make sure that you do combat erm a successful pact. Right. So we looked at two areas where we've erm we were both very weak, erm, and I don't we could even, we couldn't even see it with regards this. Right. Erm, so we've, what we, we were looking at doing is trying to create an action plan using those two areas each time to create strengths and the other will slot together Cos really in the middle the actual communication is there, but it's not constructive enough. Yes. Or perhaps, not about the right things at the time or perhaps concentrating on. But is that, in some ways, I mean you can't be too critical about yourselves, some of that is because you lack of experience within the, in Ex the company in that Ex you sell. Yeah. Chances are So I mean yo but I think that a sort of, the time we have perhaps on a could be used a lot more constructively. Well I do. You know, erm Right. really I mean we've both discussed, we both know, we've discussed things over and we've discussed a counter that, we're trying look at why all these things happen. It's really getting things done in, in a like a, I dunno, a disciplined manner, like an ordered man , so each, what to do the, we discuss what we, what we've got an action plan together and where it's fired at so it does work. Is it based on what you, well the case history's there, I think I know the, the, other than in performance, but based on that you should be able to do that. Yeah. Oh absolutely, yeah. I think it's just having a bit of erm Experience and ? just having the discipline to sit down and make sure that we e , do actually work this out and then do cover all the areas. Alright. So what I'm, what I'm sa , saying now is this, that based on what we talked about so far Mhm. is that tomorrow, when we start getting into planning, prioritizing, looking at where the new diaries and all that sort of stuff. There's, one of the things we will do before you leave tomorrow, is you will have to produce an action plan. Yes that's what Right. that's what we did. And it will be specific, it will be measurable, will be Yeah. achievable, be renewable, be . Yeah. Yes. Mm. Now, if that's the case once we've done that, okay? And we'll then type it up for ya, and you'll take it away and it will be yours. Right? I'm not asking for money or taking anything from you. You could say well, Jackie took this and you got one leg on this table shorter than the other legs and we've jammed it under there levels the table up. Now what you'll be taking is erm It's, it's erm . So what I'm saying is we need to be very, as soon as you get the stuff, that, if you wanna get anything out of this course at all, and what people do get out of the course, is the fact that by the time they leave here we've said right, that's the way we're going that's what we're gonna aim for and it is reasonable time. Mhm. Yeah. Cos they were only the real areas lacking and the I'm quite high on the complete finisher, whereby You know by your roads. you always go down the Right. road. That's okay. Alright. Jus just you. Fairly true Yeah. of perhaps my characteristics cos I tend to go in to work at eight o'clock just before I write any more in and I do have to clear everything before I even start the day. Which you don't get any assistance. I can't just sort of well I think Nor can I. I might get the odd done. Yes, I make it the other That's fine. way round, I shove everything to one side of the desk and everyone's gone home and then I start working. So, it's perhaps an area that I could instigate there. That side of things to actually get things completed. Okay. That's super. That's, that's true. That's brilliant. What about you two? Oh right! Yes. We're both er, inquisitive, and enthusiastic, strong, strong-willed, er we both top score in that source investigator. Right. Yeah. That's what I heard, pretending . That's right. That's alright. We're both, yeah we're both try and demand respect, we both try and help people with weakness as much as possible. Both , self-confident. We try and mould our ideas that we both have together what we get them from other people. That's alright. I'm impressed. I do , I, I don't , I told you that th that there ain't many, many players in this world who are, who are so so , sort of, you know started what Yeah. they did, they nick everybody else's ideas and turn them into something else so well Well like we, so we can try and e , with regards to the teams we're probably a little bit more high profile than a lot of the other teams. Yeah. At our depot, because it's just the way, just the way we are up north. A , and your reputation . Well no, er I've been there a few times. Yeah. And er so but we have divided it by the weaknesses and things like that. Are what? Planning. Right . Yes, that won't be a strength will it? No. No. Yeah. That's what we've gotta finish tomorrow. Right, well everybody's, we gotta finish tomorrow. I know. Yeah. God almighty! Er , we're not we're not all so self-disc , or disciplined about things. Right. It takes the way things go instead of just making, yeah, instead of just sitting down and getting on with it. Well one of the problems you see,i if you are perceived as one of the best, you tend to be in the top three or four or so on, you know, the, the people know who you are, but when you are perceived as being the, you know, that sort of effort you sort of find it, find it pretty difficult . And it's only the people who become, well I mean, I was gonna say sort of gold medallists and the Olympics who are good at that sort of thing because the best in the world, yeah. And they don't give them to everybody, what you do is,th the problem is that you see all that's wrong with the depot. Yeah. Now they er you know it's a bit of a bloody, bloody dowdy operation, I mean er, one of the things I try and talk to people about here Yeah. and er, I get on the courses is the fact that that is very good attendance sort of thing for you to see T N T Express has been rather than a depot. You never see a truck here. How many times does anybody see them? They're all gone by the time you get into work and they ain't back by time you go home. Do you ever see a truck? No. Have you ever seen the type of thing? No. Well, rarely. And so that this tendency you see for us to see how well our world has been, rather than the depot, and in many cases they do it Mm. they . Mm. Now, what you've got to do, the one thing you really have got to do is to, is is to start being critical of yourselves and well look, am I doing anything wrong here? But rather than have you doing something else. Mm mm. Mm. And also we, we, we need to look at strict plans as I say, because we're not particularly good, good at that. Yeah. So you'll go away and find that out? Yeah. Yeah, well you better go and ask Stuart. Yeah. And if you just think, oh well. You're talking to me , you're talking to the first one round. following a plan, and a system many, many times. Alright, what about Jane cos she's looking at us? I'm a Well er, er yeah, but it's But er, which is worse. that's right,. The one thing we are gonna do is, is aim to do is concentrate on, on obviously not now. Erm, it's, if is a bit awkward bu , you know, our, well our terms because you know how calls so Jenny gets to have them, she gets an awful lot. Alright, well th th that's that's okay. Oh yeah. Lynn does. Yeah. Yeah. What about Jack the lad? Mm mm. Er, there's, there's, there's gotta be a distraction between what you're, many of the figures made there No, that's right. erm, of the three of us. Er on the, the S E H, which is the erm, the organizer The short one. Right. We, we all came out fairly high on that one. And do you think that, that fits? Does that gel with what you see Yeah. in your company? Yeah. Erm Where you work. I think we, we, we fairly, we're fairly organized as a team now. And, as I say, we've been together for a long time and the appointment, the changeover of the appointments Can I stop you? Yes. Was the help, helping you pick up body language there? They both moved back Mm mm. together and they both move up. One knee was right over left and the other was left over right. Yeah I noticed that. Erm, I stopped doing that but she That was Peter. Peter. You got about seven hours tonight I'll tell you about it. We slept through that one last time. Oh very funny. Who gave you a ? Right go on, I'm sorry, I shouldn't have stopped you. Go on. I've slept with worse than that before Pete. Ooh! Everything's hunky-dory and I never hope I ever knock this, I don't know whether Susan wants to hear this but since we started doing the appointment side it really in our depot, it's really working. And erm I presume so. we've got a very, very Yeah. good rapport with each, you know, we can sort o , I mean the girls can sort of say what they want to me, I say what I want to them, you know, we take a joke. Oh that's nice. We got a lot of er we got very good rapport going which is a big thing. I don't think the other team in the depot have got such a, I shouldn't speak out of school but we have Ah that's okay. got such a good rapport with the outdoor sales than I've got with er, Jane and Linda. Right. Which I think goes a long way. Yeah. So what would, what would be the weakness of the team then? Er, well we wrote ta erm, a couple of weaknesses down here. Erm, the weakness of the team was erm You're not allowed to say those. Yeah, we need to brush up on, on er And I'll have these. making changes beyond ourselves. Erm Ooh God! any Ha! Well based on what That one's we need to brush change that one up on erm Yes, we need to brush up on, on analysing our problems before they get worse and getting them back into shape using our organized, organizing skills and teamwork. Right. And has Plus that go on. plus erm, we, we sort of erm we need to get together more in the night and be brief, we'd be briefing I was just gonna say, what you need, probably, is to We er i is to not meet for meeting's sake. Yeah. And one of the things we need to talk about tomorrow is how we put together a briefing Yeah. I think, and, or a de-brief, what the hell do we do with this thing. Erm, and that I would have thought would probably do it, or certainly helpful as long as you actually do it, sort of thing. One of the problems Yeah. with de-briefings is that what people do is sit down and say what shall we talk about now? That's right. Or what, on the night we have a chat with that area being on on that day Right. individually, but we don't get together enough as a team. No. Oh. Just sit down The three of us. for half an hour The three of us. That's what it takes. That's what it takes. Yeah. I agree. It's just me or Jack Yeah. her or Jack. Yeah. Well it should be the three of us more. Yes. Just that since we've come back after Christmas we haven't never have the time before er Oh well let's well to get together, all together, it's we just haven't I'm sure, ah but with respect I'm sure you have had the time, what you don't do is make the time because Yeah. Yeah. you've got too many other things That's right. to do. Exactly, exactly right. Mm. And it's, er it is one of the problems. That goes to the bottom of Yes. the pile. That's right. One of the problems you see is that Yeah. that people tend to see a meeting as having to be really, oh it's gotta be at ten to five, it's gotta You gotta say . be on a Friday Yeah. or whatever it may be. And,i , no the only reason for having Friday meetings is because it's Friday. Yeah. There ain't any, no reason for it. We a , but we are on a regular day er Just stopped them. Sales depot sales meetings so, on a regular basis now erm, including Jeff who's the general manager. All teams will go through a meeting about six, every eight weeks. We've put a lot of erm Yeah, I think that's what that, that's managers,wo , a lot of ma the managers, a lot of the customers now you know, can come depot it was said that er you know, and it's being done and everything wants starting, and so on and so on. Right. So er, we're on, now on our last You can't erm comes out each week brought up each week at erm depot meetings. Right. There's a lot of competition at the moment in between our territory team and the other territory team That's good. where Right. erm, but that's what we've had the meetings in really about is we've, we've listed our major consa , customers and then listed their's, and the two gets first one and the most revenue started, that's what we're having at the moment. Having a little competition in between us both, you know. Yeah. Well the great thing that you've And it's got going for you now of course, is you have a very, or a fairly good idea of what you're strong at and what you are weak at, or what you, one part of the weaknesses is planning things, and analysing things. That's right. Erm and so what we need to think about tomorrow, we're organizing this plan, or whatever, is how, how do we implement that. Er, and I think what you need to do, what we all need to do is when we've discussed all this stuff, talked about it, and I'm sure you'll talk about it again tonight, that what we need to do is to recognize that this has to start on Monday. Mm. Not Monday week. Mhm. Think that Not Tuesday afternoon. I think that our problem is like, that we don't sort of like get together and me , and I know what I; m doing with Jack, and Linda knows what she's doing with Jack, but me and Linda don't know what each other are doing. That's right. And I think Mm. that is, I think that's clear, I think that's er you're absolutely right. Mhm. But it comes up and I'll say, oh did I not say that? That's right. Did you? Aha. Didn't I tell you that? Aha. Didn't I tell you that? And I just And it is presumed, you know. Is it going down did you say? Yeah. Erm You presume that each other knows when really That's right. you don't. Oh tell me about it. Yeah. Right. I never worked with anybody like that but I know who you mean. Come on then! Oh. There are some places where we keep the best till last. Thanks. Serves me right for I suppose. Yes. That's right. So what, what, what are now? What are we what are we now? Erm they would ideally like to Right. I haven't said something by the way. Oh yes. Yeah. Mary's quite good coming up with new ideas and new lines of thought on various subjects Right. Okay. and I'm, supposedly the one that will carry it through. I er And do you think that's right? Yeah. Yeah I think so. And she's also good at support, supporting the team. Right. Ah erm and her loyalty to the company, so she's always saying I think you've all got that, it's just that er I don't think that yes, yeah, oh yeah. Okay, right. Ah ah, and and also a good problem solver as well. That Mary will come across with something that you use on Mm mm. various ideas. The weakness that we've identified is that because we're new we haven't learnt the game. We've gotta learn the game. Yeah. From the Yeah. type of area to I wish I could live as much in a world where none of you learnt the bloody then we can actually get on with it. But erm yes, I, I think there's the, the, there's a weakness and a strength there you see. And a, one of the reasons why Mary keeps coming out with good ideas is she don't know the game. Mm mm. And, one of the days she'll learn the game, I mean that in the nicest sense, the,th th , the game, and when she learns the game she'll stop coming out with ideas then. Mm. We'll be . A , and, and I think we all do that. The erm but most of us are when yo , when you first join something you can always see the things that you ought to be able to change. And one of the things that is happening and mortified when I first came to this company was I couldn't see a straight line through. I couldn't see who reported to who. I can't, I still don't bloody know now! But I mean I I I just couldn't, I just thought, suddenly I thought my God, you know I can change this. So It's not so much changing T N T, it was changing some influences that's effecting Mary. She's doing, spending as much time doing tea and she sees, as she is phoning prospects. Yes. I think that shows in time. Yeah. That's what, I think one of the other ones is, whilst we No it's alright to laugh, I go round picking up. That's right. Once again we Yeah I know. de-brief every now and then, it's it's not being a full de-brief. I'll tell Alison the accountant then, and she'll tell me what she's sold and how many contracts we've booked and but it's done in front of everybody else while everybody, why everybody else who's on the phone. And we don't talk about problems, who's done what, how, what problems you're having. Mm mm. And they haven't done anything in a, in a support group in that sense. But like just for you to know that, I mean,at the moment, got a slight shortage of staff and, us little Express girlies are like, we're all sort of desperate to please them well, and because we need to, if a customer rings we're always there for them and the problem is, I've got like two phones on my desk at the moment, so, I could guarantee the minute I put my phone down, if anybody else is on the phone ha,bloody phone's still ringing , I have got to answer it. There is times I've casually picked it up, dropped it on the floor and forgotten to pick it up for a while because I'm on the phone and sometimes it is quite loud in my ear. But like, looking at this is what did it, filling Well in this. Actually sitting there and saying, not realizing, a few problems that Too busy to realize I'm writing. So I've looked at it at the end of day and thought well my God! And he's looked at it and just said well look at it. Don't spend But you see the as much on the phone . th ,th again , again you see the strength of this course is that if nobody had actually given you time like, you'd have never known. No. This is it. You just get on with what you're doing. We had a secretary here a fortnight ago and said how good it'd been. So manic. It was . Oh! You wouldn't know, you see. No. And and, the, the, the strength of this particular course amazed with herself she just sort of sat about once a day chatting . But, the strength of this particular is that we now know an awful lot of about one another. Mm. But we get We're getting there faster than we think. We're getting there faster than we think. Good. Thank you for that. Right. I'm now gonna give you one last exercise then which may take rather more time than we've got. And if it doesn't, probably won't, we'll be kicking away from here about quarter five. If it does, then okay finish it off tonight. Or, do it before then. I want to give you I'm going to give each of you, yeah if you just wanna just clear up some of the bits of paper then that's alright. Yeah. Cos you can't get, an old bloke told me that. Okay, one for you and one for you. One for you. One for you. And one for you. Right, what I want you to do, and we've used the same two teams as we, we've used last time. Right? So it's from Jenny that way, and from Matt that way. Okay? All I want you to do I'll just read through this. You've just been told that you are to take over the job of manager for O A Z Company Limited. The previous job holder has resigned and left the country. They always do. And they th , they not only leave the country, they're up in space, you can't get hold of them, in fact, he's not at work. And the only key members of the department are away on leave, okay? It will be the same. And you can't get hold of any of them. Okay? So who's down to? You. You know very little about the job. Right? But understand that your new boss is the production director. Right? Mr . You've got two chief managers, Mr and Mr . And a secretary, Elma, who'll report straight into you. Ooh ooh! You've got forty minutes, that's about what you've got, it's just about thirty minutes, okay? To clear the items found on your predecess the participants for H Two will have already discovered, we are still tackling part of H One from yesterday, but, and I apologize that you will have to sit through the outstanding items of discussion. On the other hand, you will have gathered already that we are going to talk about Greater York, so I think there may be some distinct benefit and merit in you being he here to listen to that, er particular part of the topic, now the, I hope in fact that we can deal with the remainder of H One, because it it does lead quite logically into the next issue which we want to talk about, which is the new settlement in the Greater York area, er and I hope that we can get through this item by our morning break, that but whenever we do conclude on H One we will have to have a slightly longer break just to enable the seating arrangements to be sorted out properly for all participants who are involved in the discussion on the new settlement. Now can I er also suggest to you that in discussing this one outstanding item of the housing land allocations, we pursue virtually the same sort of approach that we did yesterday, er and in fact if you look at what is set down under matter One D for discussion, it says is the provision proposed for the Greater York area including the new settlement appropriate etcetera, and in fact when you look at the first item for discussion under the Greater York new settlement issue, we come straight into, does Greater York new settlement represent an appropriate and justified policy response, etcetera. So what I'm going to ask effectively that when we are talking about the Greater York element of the housing land allocation we concentrate on the question of is the level of provision enough? And we know there are various er responses to that question, and I would be looking to the districts to say whether or not they could cope with the various levels of provision that have been identified for Greater York, and it's the view of whether they can cope within their own districts, I haven't said how you can cope, I said whether you can cope, you might I will I will leave you free to make the odd comment, but I want to focus on that part of the issue, and then the natural corollary to that is, will it be necessary, or is it considered necessary in the context of this alteration to provide specific guidance within H One policy for the distribution of that er development to er at sub, what I would call sub-district level, in other words do you want a specific entry for say Ryedale or Hambledon? Has anyone got any questions on that approach? Is it clear how I'd like to play it? Er so with no more ado I will ask Mr Davis for North Yorkshire to present his opening statement, and then I'd like Mr Curtis, your moment has come Mr Curtis, er to to follow on from Mr Davis. Thank you. Peter Davis, North Yorkshire County Council, erm I'd just like to make five brief points in response to the issues that have been raised erm on One D. The first of those points is the principle of a Greater York dimension to the structure plan, erm we'll all probably be aware that in the original structure plan the Secretary of State wasn't prepared to accept a Greater York dimension in the structure plan, but did accept with the support of the district councils on the first alteration, the inclusion of a Greater York dimension. Having that Greater York dimension has certainly allowed progress to be achieved dramatically in Greater York, erm, it's led to progress towards progress towards green belt definition, and more importantly it's led towards resolution of future strategy for Greater York. Er we at the County Council think that to delete that Greater York erm dimension would take us back to the realms of uncertainty, past uncertainty, in the Greater York area, we're therefore proceeding with a Greater York dimension in policy H One at none thousand seven hundred dwellings, which equates to hundred percent migration. The second point I want to raise is the issue erm of the green belt, er which is er a constraint in Greater York erm we've made significant progress in moving towards the statutory definition of the green belt, the green belt local plan has now completed erm its public enquiry, and a lot of the deliberations in Greater York have centred around the effect on of the green belt on development potential in Greater York, so that is a main issue, I think, in response to issues, the discussion of issues in Greater York. The third point which has come out in a number erm of comments, certainly from the C P R E is the issue of overshoots in the approved structure plan in respect to Greater York, and as we made clear in paragraph eight of our er erm position statement, we accept that there has been in numeric terms in the period eighty one to ninety two something like fifteen percent overshoot in terms of completions er in that period. We would wish to stress again, with the district council's support I suspect, that that overshoot really it's to sites within the urban area, as in windfall sites in general planning terms we have seen to be acceptable er in planning terms, but we would wish to stress that part part of that approach has been a continuing resistance to development on greenfield sites on the edge of the the urban area. The fourth point, Chairman, er is the new settlement issue, and while that's due for discussion on policy H Two, that issue does shall I suggest invade policy H One, because an appropriate form of words has to be agreed in policy H One to reflect the new settlement issue and as you'll be aware the County Council is about a step by step approach towards the finalization of the new settlement erm strategy for Greater York, and then finally, a specific issue that you mentioned is the distribution of developments between the Greater York districts er within Greater York, now as you'll be aware Chairman, that has been done informally, following the original structure plan in nineteen eighty the County and the Districts got together and agreed the distribution of housing and employment land in Greater York. Following the first alteration, when the Secretary of State approved the Greater York dimension, that matter was resolved amicably between the County and the Districts erm through the er Greater York study, so the issue therefore is there a need for more guidance for the structure plan, to break down the Greater York figure to individual Greater York districts, and our view quite clearly er is the answer that the answer to that is no. Certainly it would be very difficult to introduce any statistical rational erm to the desegregation of Greater York to its district components, bearing in mind the small populations er in some of the Greater York er districts, we think that the general level of detail erm in the structure plan is appropriate, and we think to go down to any finer detail would be an inappropriate to a structure plan, and thirdly I think on that issue, er we would think that it would prejudice erm the work that District Council would want to do erm in their er local plans. So those, Chairman, are the five points er that I wanted to raise on Greater York, and obviously we will be interested to hear the response round the table today. Can I ask Mr can I ask Mr Davis to give us a bit more explanation, please, as to his rationale behind continuing resistance to the development of greenfield sites on the edge of York. Peter Davis, North Yorkshire County Council, erm I think the clear answer to that is that districts, erm and county, erm were very aware of the greenbelt constraints on greenbelt sites But erm adjacent to the urban area. Are you saying that greenfield development on the edge of York would be in the greenbelt as you have defined it in the deposited local plan. I'm talking about the the overshoot, and my comments about greenfield sites were related to period eighty one to ninety two, and it became quite clear during the eighties that the sketch plan green belt or development was at that time, through the eighties, was by and large abutting onto the urban area, that er through the eighties what everybody understood to the sketch plan green belt was tight up against er the urban area, so in resisting urban greenfield sites erm on the urban edge through the eighties the County Council were recognizing the greenbelt constraints. That isn't quite the question I asked. Unless you are telling me that the sketch greenbelt local plan is the same as the deposited greenbelt local plan Well is there land between the current edge of development in York and the inner edge of the greenbelt which is as yet undeveloped? Yes, and then that approach was taken on through the Greater York study, and in the greenbelt local plan, and the Greater York study identified a number of sites. Part A goes ninety one to ninety six, part B ninety six to two thousand and six, sites adjacent to the urban area in the Greater York study er which were acceptable for development because corporately the districts and the county did not think that those sites discharged a greenbelt function as the greenbelt local plan was progressed those sites were excluded from the greenbelt erm and yes, we did identify a number of sites which did not conflict with greenbelt objectives erm on the urban edge. Are those sites within the City of York administrative area or other districts? The the bulk of them erm I think almost without exception are erm in adjoining districts, around York, the significant contribution from York that we identified in the Greater York study, erm largely comes from from windfill windfall sites, by and large. Which districts, please. Erm the the bulk of the erm erm commitment erm or the or the sites that we identified, er would be in would be in Ryedale district, in South Ryedale . Thank you, thank you. Mr Curtis. Thank you Chair. David Curtis, York City Council. I think some of my er introductory comments might now be inspector, er understand the er sort of urban situation, erm we heard yesterday about er discussion about the similarities between different districts in North Yorkshire and the possible differences. I think everyone around the table would accept that in this situation York is unique. York's a historic city of some hundred and four thousand people, covering some two thousand nine hundred hectares, but that city itself is only part of the settlement that I think we would all regard as as York itself, that covers a larger population of some a hundred and thirty five thousand people, er contained er within the York outer ring road, and referenced to the the map submitted with my H One submission, and also the greenbelt plan which we've we've just put up on the board there, er will show you the the broader extent of the urban area. Clearly in that situation the city of York is highly constrained, it's a modern industrial city with a very tight medieval core, a historic core which is is world renowned, but a historic core which actually only covers four percent of the built area of the city itself, when we look at that wider area erm the central historic core together with the eight other conservation areas in the city and conservation areas in the remainder of the urban settlement comes to some thirteen percent of the urban area. Furthermore we have a series of major landscape features, er which are been referred to in the greenbelt local plan and elsewhere as wedges, which you'll see from the map enter into the very heart of the city itself. Some six hundred hectares of that land is actually designated as greenbelt, but in addition within that a number of those areas are er prevented from development in perpetuity we'd argue because a large part of that area has got a historic status as stray land, which is a form of common land, which means it's actually not not available for any form of development, similarly the flood planes of the river Ouse in particular is for physical development reasons er prevented from development in many areas, and those of you who were here this weekend will have no noticed the reason why, it was a flooding that took that took place on the Ouse valley, in addition to those constraints, open space within the city is at a premium erm the city falls below the Emperface standard, erm by er something like erm half a hectare per thousand population, so compared with the Emperface standard of two point four per thousand, the city reaches a quite a generous erm categorization of the recreational space we have available, only a total of two hectares per thousand, therefore, and this is very relevant to the Greater York debate, erm, really the only land for development within the city is recycled land, there are limited number of er sites which have not been developed in recent years erm which can be identified for development, and are being identified for development in our draft local plan. But the majority of of any development land in the city would be recycled, either from housing uses or industrial uses. The draft of the city wide local plan will be going to the city council in December, and prove of the consultation, but the figures some of you've seen in our evidence have been a agreed by the the local plan steering group, who sit in council members er across party, committee which has agreed the basic numbers, so the draft allocations which are in our submission, and which we have seen in the schedules yesterday, are accepted as a basis for consultation by the city council but are clearly subject to review. Turn turning then to just touch on the issues that I've, we didn't cover yesterday for York, erm you'll notice from our H One submission we have a slight difference of opinion with the County Council on the technical side of the er the calculation, we believe that the calculation, we believe that the calculation for York's need rather than three three should be a four thousand figure, taking into account the the issue of concealed households and involuntary sharing. However, that doesn't have an effect on our er ability to agree a figure of three three for the city itself, in the structure plan, because the work we've done on the local plan taking into account commitments and suitable allowances for small sites, does indicate to us that a figure of three three is achievable, but would be extremely difficult to exceed, the difference here between the four thousand and the three three does, however, have an impact on our neighbours clearly, and as was mentioned yesterday the City Council does own some some twenty nine hectares of land outside its current boundary, er located in the Ryedale District Council area, that land, some of that land has planning consent, the remainder is allocated in the draft Southern Ryedale local plan and was excluded from the greenbelt, that land it is the City Council's intention to use to meet its er requirements for affordable housing, could accommodate some seven hundred dwellings, I think it is very important for me to emphasize that that is a very clear commitment of the City Council, and therefore that land in Ryedale would not er in the majority of its case be available for open market use, we would be seeking to use it to meet er affordable housing requirements. Er the other point I would make about the the figures under H One, really is that erm the twelve thirty figures that you've seen in the tables is our best estimate at the present time, based on the site survey we've carried out. That is a very comprehensive survey, erm I wouldn't envisage any additional sites being recommended by the City Council, er at the present time, although clearly some of the sites may be suggested by by a private developers and landowners during the consultation process. It is quite possible clearly that that number could be reduced, during the consultation process on the on the local plan, I think that's an important point because of the issue of windfall that was mentioned by Mr Davis, and was raised yesterday, reference to historic trends in the city of York do show that erm we have exceeded structure plan targets by substantial amounts, I think the figure is is forty percent or or more, er the County Council could confirm that, slightly difficult calculation to do because I'm sure you'll be aware that to our eternal shame, the City Council has not to date adopted a formal local plan, with reference erm to your question on day one er as to whether or not we might calculate contribution of windfalls in the past, we have looked at the nineteen eighty seven residential land availability er study, which was agreed with the house builders, adjacent districts, and of course the County, and in the five year period of that study, by comparison with the sites that we agreed in the study, an additional four hundred and thirty dwellings came forward and were completed on sites that had not been identified in the study, now I'd I would say very clearly that that level of windfalls erm would not continue in the future and it could not be a reliable basis for erm looking at windfall contributions in the city in the future, clearly the supply of development land in the city is a is a finite resource, er given given the constraints that are current holding, and although some additional windfalls to the two hundred I'd suggested in my H One may come forward, on the other hand I suspect some of the sites suggested in the draft local plan could fall out of the equation. Just turning briefly to the issue of affordable housing, you'll see from my H One submissions the City Council has a target, er which is in the the York area housing strategy, which is currently with the D O E for its consideration, of something like a hundred and fifty dwellings a year, giving over the fifteen year period a two thousand two hundred target, how we will go about achieving that is primarily, where it's possible using land we already own, or is in ownership of housing associations, and taking into account the the seven dwellings outside the current city boundary, we believe in total they will contribute some fifteen hundred dwellings towards that two thousand two hundred target, this will leave clearly a significant shortfall, and it will therefore be necessary to to seek to negotiate, if I can use the terms of P B G 3 erm with house builders as sites come forward in in the local during the local plan period. Turning now very briefly to the H One D the Greater York issue, clearly the comments I've made about the calculations for York have a knock on effect for our position on Greater York, the Greater York figures as I understand it from the County Council are based on a one hundred percent migration assumption, if the technical difference between us er we are right then we believe clearly the Greater York figure should be increased by an appropriate amount, and the we've suggested the increased cut should be seven hundred er relating to the city itself I can't calculate with any great accuracy what the figure for the surrounding parts of Greater York might be, but it would be we suspect only another one to two hundred more on top of that, therefore that underst explains the reason why the City Council suggests that the Greater York should be increased to the ten four figure from the nine seven. The other concern in the City Council's evidence on H One er is this issue of distribution, I note Mr Davis's comments about the difficulties of subdividing the Greater York allocation between different districts, and I I do acknowledge the difficulty in relation to Harrogate, and particularly Hambledon which obviously has a very small proportion of Greater York, on the other hand both Ryedale and Selby do contain a substantial proportion of the Greater York population, er based on my calculations of their er proportion of the population of Greater York which admittedly is a somewhat crude way of of doing estimates, but in the absence of of any other projections that was really the only way to do it, my estimate is that the er compared with the nine seven target of County Council would take in the could potentially be seen to be taking a share of four thousand two hundred in Ryedale and seventeen hundred for Selby, if you base it on their existing population distribution on er part outside the city, now I'm not saying necessarily that's how the way you would do it, but I I think it's an indication that the scale of development in those two districts is quite significant in Greater York, our concern is that the policy as it currently stands does not give any real guidance as to the way in which distribution of development outside the city, but in Greater York, erm can be er should be di divided up, and I think the problem really occurs from the introduction of the new settlement into H One, erm I don't want to stray into the H Two debate Chair, but I think it's the fact that H One does include a figure for the new settlement, that the new settlement is not located within any particular district, but that all the district totals do include in effect a figure which is undetermined at this stage, that that would be absorbed by the new settlement, as I understand the policy at the moment, and I think that really does introduce a problem, erm because clearly all of the emerging districts wide local plans could be in conformity with the structure plan and not include the new settlement, I think it's er interesting to note that the the D O E's recently published a good practice guide, on development plans, did particularly highlight the situation in Greater York, as a problem, as a shortcoming of the existing plan, and if I can just quote it, it does say this, on page forty three, it would seem appropriate for broad locations of new development to be established by means of an alteration to the structure plan. So we have suggested, erm, you will see in our evidence that policy H One should be amended and their are clearly a number of ways in which that amended amendment could take place, but we would particularly suggest that erm an indication should be given as to what the proportion of each district's allocation is assumed to be going to the new settlement, if the new settlement is is agreed under the H Two discussion, thank you. Thank you very much, Mr Curtis. I mean effectively what you're saying is that York has got a capacity for about another three thousand three hundred dwellings? Yes. Over a whole range of sites. After Yes. that you're really straining, almost to get a gallon into a pint pot, never mind a quart, aren't you? David Curtis, York City Council. Yes, that is correct, sir. Does that include all land within the city boundary not included in the greenbelt? Yes. David Curtis, York City Council. Yes it does, the there is as you will see from the greenbelt plan,a apart from the issue of the fact that the the city boundary is in many areas er sort of hard up against further urban development so there's no space between the city and the parts in adjacent districts, the greenbelt boundary, as currently proposed by the County Council, erm which as you'll see from our evidence is not a boundary supported in its entirety by the City Council, means there is no further development land between the city boundary and the greenbelt. Thank you. Thank you. I think I'll ask Mr Smith from Ryedale to tell us a little more about Ryedale's problems or efforts Thank you. to cope with the pressures from York city itself, and the Greater York area. Ian Smith, Ryedale District. Erm Ryedale District, as can be seen from the table supplied by Greater York, has taken the largest proportion of the Greater York housing element over the past ten years, as regards the proposed level of future housing growth suggested for the Greater York area, the District Council supports the figure in the structure plan, the Greater York study identified a number of sites around the Greater York area which could accommodate further development without compromising greenbelt objectives or adversely affecting the character of the settlements surrounding York, and within that part of Southern Ryedale within the Greater York area the identified sites were, by and large, incorporated into the Southern Ryedale local plan, which has recently been through the public enquiry, the District Council does not believe that a larger amount of land could be identified within Southern Ryedale, without compromising greenbelt objectives. As regards the distribution of lands between the districts, erm if I can refer to Mr Curtis's comments first, the Greater York study never anticipated that the distribution of housing around the Greater York the districts would be based around the percentage of population within those districts, but purely on capacity of sites within those districts to accommodate future housing growth without compromising greenbelt objectives, Ryedale, as I've said before, has taken the largest proportion of recent housing in the Greater York area, and has identified a substantial amount of new land for housing within its Southern Ryedale local plan, what the District Council is concerned about is that within the local, Southern Ryedale local plans, this is taking a large proportion of its district wide total plans, yet the District Council from the structure plan figure given is unable to calculate the remainder of housing that should be allocated in the remainder of its district. What Ryedale is seeking is not a figure for its sector within the Greater York area, and the same with the other districts, but rather a figure for the Greater York area as a whole, and then a figure for the remainder of those parts of the districts outside the Greater York area, so you don't get a situation with my colleagues on the left where you are in the structure plan dictating the number of houses that should be allocated in, for example, two parishes. I follow the I follow the er the point, but the thing that puzzles me is that your South Ryedale local plan allocations have arisen out of the discussions on the Greater York study, yes? That is correct, yes. Where do you go post two thousand and six, for example, in obtaining a strategic view about the distribution of growth around York, and in the Greater York area. I mean, how is that going to be provided? How are you going to be given, and I'm making an assumption, of course that the present two tier planning system is still prevailing? Stick with that scenario, how, how would you anticipate, or how would you expect that strategic guidance to be given as to where development should be appropriately located to serve the needs of Greater York, what mechanism is there in place for being I it's given that guidance? Ian Smith, Ryedale District Council. Erm beyond two thousand and six, I would have thought the strategic guidance would be in locations other than peripheral expansion around the Greater York area, which I would have suggested would would more than likely be to new settlements. Can I pursue erm any fact no more without compromising greenbelt objectives, no more than that, er you said a couple of times. I th I'm not challenging that, I simply wish to be clear what you mean by it. Two questions. Does that mean no more without development in the deposited greenbelt, as in the greenbelt as defined in the deposited greenbelt local plan, or does it mean no more unless it is hard up against that greenbelt? And secondly, to which greenbelt objectives did you refer? Ian Smith, Ryedale District Council. Er to answer the first answer the first of your two questions, erm, the greenbelt as defined in the greenbelt local plan is hard up, in many respects, against the edge of the built up area, excluding allocated sites, allocations above that within the Southern Ryedale area would in fact require redrawing green in a green belt boundaries. But there is allocated land, allocated undeveloped land, between the existing urban edge and the inner edge of the greenbelt? Yes, where, sorry, Ian Smith, Ryedale District, yes, er where it was considered those allocated sites could be developed without extending development into the greenbelt. Thank you. Mr Davis, and then Mr . I'm sorry there was a second question . Oh sorry, yes. Erm the greenbelt objectives which we identify with or could be compromised by significant peripheral expansion, or the expansion of a settlement within the greenbelt, were primarily the effecting the setting of the historic city, which we and the County considered and refer to more than just the green wedges, and but involve the whole countryside, and the setting of the settlements within the greenbelt around the Greater York area, expansion of lar large urban areas into the countryside, possible coalescence of settlements. Not the historic city itself? Yes er it the first, yes, setting of the historic city . How would you describe the setting of the historic core of York. Erm, it's a city,this takes me back a few months, since the Southern Ryedale local plan enquiry, the character, special character of a city, is derives from a number of elements, there's the green wedges which centre on the strays which penetrate into the heart of the built up area, there is the encircling belt of open countryside which links those areas together, there are the numerous settlements within the greenbelt and their relationship to one another, and to the city of York. There are a number of viewpoints of the city from the ring road Yes. erm, in some of which the Minster is clearly visible, Mhm. in a setting of suburban, industrial, residential development, and some of those viewpoints on the ring road all one can see is the suburban, industrial, and residential development. Ian Smith,Ry That's what were aiming to preserve, is it? Well, Ian Smith Ryedale, I think in the majority of views across from the ring road you have a belt of open countryside before that suburban housing. What you yo were trying to achieve is the expansion of the built up area towards the ring road, and thereby having built development hard up er as it is at the moment the ring road goes through for the most part open countryside on either side of it. Yes. Thank you. Mr Davis. Very briefly, Peter Davis, North Yorkshire County Council, you raised the issue of procedures looking at the er post two thousand and six scenario within the light of er a statutory greenbelt er at that time, and I would envisage that the County Council and the Districts, if indeed we're all er in business at er er in in in the next century, would probably want to run a similar sort of exercise that they would be ran through the end of the eighties, and that is to sit down together, er and look at all the options, er that are available for Greater York, in the same way that they did it in ninety eighty nine, one additional factor at that time would be that er the greenbelt would be statutory, and it would be statutory if the County Council and ninety five percent of the district support on sites would be a tight greenbelt so the options would be looked at erm er in that context, on the comments that er Miss Whittaker, erm questions that Miss Whittaker raised, there is a paper that the County Council produced for the greenbelt local plan enquiry that I remember well as N Y Two, which set out in detail the various components, erm of the York greenbelt in addition to the historic title that the that the focus of the green belt comes across a variety of of of of matters, and if it if it is helpful to this panel that document was acceptable by and large, supported by the District, we can certainly put that in, and can circulate it round. Yes, yes please, if you would. Thank you, sir. Mr Grigson. Steven Grigson from Barton Willmore. Sir, I would want to come back I susp Can you? I will want to come back, I suspect later on. Am I on? Thank you. I want to make a limited point at this juncture, I reserve the right to come back later on, and it's become three points as a result of the discussion we've already had, my view on the contribution of the of the greenbelt to the York issue isn't just the setting of the city, it's the character of the city, and that would include the central city and the historic city, and the need to limit the physical expansion and size of the urban area because of the implications inside the historic city, and that would certainly apply to other cities with greenbelts that I'm familiar with like York, like er Oxford, which the character suffers from expansion, possibly excessive, Norwich, that considered a greenbelt, and London, if you like that didn't get its greenbelt until we had the character rather drastically altered, so I think it isn't just the setting and how you see the city from the ring road, it's actually what happens inside the core, the second point I want to make is really for clarification perhaps, er and it relates to the question of allocations between the built up area and the inner edge of the greenbelt, as I understand it all those allocations are already er included in the Ryedale local plan, and are already therefore included in the commitments that we looked at in Ryedale, I don't think there is a further reserve of spare opportunities that might be used either before or after two thousand and six, that's certainly my understanding and if anybody was was taking a different view I think that should be clear, and now I come to the one point that I was actually going to raise, erm I think it's important that in this discussion of the relations between York city and Greater York, that we get a, early on, a clear view of what the requirements are in York, not just its capacity which we've discussed so far, and a figure of three thousand three hundred seems to be a fairly common currency, but its requirements, and I want to address a particular question to the County Council, which is in my proof, so they've had as it were four weeks notice of it. And that is that in the projections of housing requirements for the City of York, not Greater York but the City of York, the County Council have a figure of four thousand four hundred households extra, but propose a provision of only three thousand three hundred dwellings extra, that's purely within York, and the question really therefore for the County Council is I had thought that their dwelling requirements, that their, sorry their their policy H One figure for York was what they thought the requirements were, but maybe it's what they think the limited capacity is, and they are foreseeing an overspill of thousand odd from the city of York into Greater York. Mr Spittle. Malcolm Spittle the figures in policy H One are quite clearly referred to as provision that will be made in particular settlements, they are not stated as the the requirement for dwellings generated by that particular settlement, erm, that is quite clearly set out in policy H One, that is the wording of the policy. If the city cannot provide mo , physically more than three thousand three hundred it would not be wise to include a figure of four thousand, five thousand, six thousand, dwellings within the city, that would be misleading and would not provide clear guidance to any local authority in the preparation of their local plan. I don't think that was the point Mr Grigson was making. Well the for clarity is that the actual projected requirements, as a series of projections produced by County Council are for four thousand three hundred households, and a projected requirement for three thousand three hundred dwellings, well quite clearly if the City of York itself cannot accommodate the requirement generated from in that city, then it must be looked at in relation to the whole of the Greater York area, and the projections of the Greater York area do take into account the er the figures generated from within the City of York, therefore, yes, they are included within the Greater York figure. Do you accept, Mr Spittle, as Mr Grigson says, the projected on a tr on a trend statistical projection, the figure of households for York city is four thousand four hundred? The figure I think that we, yes I wonder if Mrs Long could re to that particular question ? Yes. Mrs Long, North Yorkshire County Council. Wait a minute, pull the microphone towards you. Mrs Long, North Yorkshire County Council. I did the demographic projections, erm, I think the difference that, er, Mr Grigson is talking about between dwellings and households comes about within the ability of the Chelmer model to input, erm, tt, calculated dwelling requirements. Now I did it in one method and Mr Grigson did it in er in a second method, and the ability to do that changes the number of households that it would project to the er the dwellings, and cancels out, this makes judgements erm on the actual population projections based, which are estimates that have come out, I don't necessarily believe the best measured estimates have come out for York, and have adjusted some of the figures in accordance with that. Now I'd like to emphasize this as because within York area it saw a difference between the census counts to the actual base population of a growth of five point seven two percent. This is more than the change that inner London received, and I think it's quite unbelievable that York's population, base population is actually starting of from the figure of er a hundred and three, a hundred and four thousand, and I think York City Council will agree with that in any case, erm, the new major estimates for nineteen ninety two would already suggest that that population's declined by a further thousand, which I think emphasizes that these major estimates are estimates, and because of the differ the difficulties within the census for nineteen ninety one, with under enumeration, some problems may have occurred. Erm, so I'll agree with Mr Grigson that we do suggest there are more households changing their own dwellings, but it's simply because we're trying to iron out of the problems that we feel have occurred within the major estimates. What's your projection for the city? In terms of additional households, ninety one, two thousand and six, please. Erm, just one moment please four thousand two hundred. Four? Four thousand two hundred. Thank you. Mr Grigson, is that moving in the direction which you wished to get an answer to your question? Well it, it, it, it's moving a bit in that direction, I mean I knew what their prediction was cos they kindly supplied it to me, which is why I made the point, but I mean as as you know from our proof we have a higher view of the demographic requirements in York even than that, for reasons that were amply discussed in general on on day one, to do with vacant dwellings, mortality, and I think still probably a difference in migration between us on York, which is statistical rather than environmental, but I think it is important to to have that established early on that that even in the County Council's view, and with their, as it were, doubts about the statistics which they themselves use, that er there is more need generated in York, however much it is, than York itself can accommodate, and that is of course without York city's seven hundred addition for reducing concealed and sharing households which is not in the County Council's figures. Yes, er I see from the supplementary proof which you have put in the other day, I mean your calculations of York's requirements is six thousand six hundred. Yes. Yes. Yes. No doubt we will return to that. Mr Donson. Thank you. Roy Donson, House Builders' Federation. I'd like to take up some points as they've occurred this morning. Erm, the first point relates to erm affordable housing targets in York, and the consequences that that has in relation not only to York but other areas, on the on the assumption that that there is, there has to be an overspill to to adjou adjacent areas. Erm, I heard Mr Curtis say that the shortfall of affordable houses was seven hundred, he had a target of two thousand two hundred and felt they could find fifteen hundred somewhere already, so another shortfall of of seven hundred that actually contrasts with para' four one one of the one eleven should I say, four one eleven, of the York housing strategy, which has been submitted, and appendix four of the York evidence which actually says that, yes there's a two thousand two hundred target, but there would still be a shortfall of about one thousand one hundred dwellings if this land, they're talking about land that they own outside of York, is developed for affordable housing. Well there seems to be a slight mismatch there, and perhaps some of this mismatch is also a part of, with the confusion I have of the various shifting policy of York, in term in terms of their requirement, there has been in the in the not too recent recent past York were saying they had an additional requirement beyond need which they termed their concealed requirement, although it might not be a concealed dwellings, as we might otherwise describe them, of one thousand six hundred, and that has progressively come down to seven hundred as presented at this enquiry. Now it seemed to me that one thousand six hundred was initially as a result of survey work or shall we say investigation into the housing waiting list carried out by the York housing department, and I have to say that I have a certain respect for the York housing department, and they have a certain reasonable and good reputation within the region as a housing department, and so there seems to me that there is a gr a there is a potential to underestimate er the the affordable requirement that's been put to you, another point erm I'd just like perhaps to seek a little clarification from Mr Curtis, was was unfortunately I was looking something else up or my attention was diverted when he gave some figures for Ryedale and Selby, I think he said, and I'll happily stand corrected on this, that if you take away the York requirement figure from his ten thousand four hundred for Greater York, then the remainder he would apportion to Selby and Ryedale, so that Selby got four thousand two hundred, sorry, so that Ryedale got four thousand two hundred and Selby got one thousand seven hundred, erm that doesn't add up to ten thousand four hundred and I I I in total, and I I wondered where the rest was coming from, if I the point correctly. My note indicates that what Mr Curtis said was that on a pro rata to their existing Yes. population levels i in the area of Greater York, an allocation would suggest that, he wasn't advocating that, it was just a pro rata ball park estimate, and he didn't purport to make it add up to the residual requirement okay ? It's it's still one thousand two hundred dwellings short, and I don't know where there going to go. Mr Curtis. Thank you Chair. David Curtis, York City Council. There's a few issues I'd like to cover from a number of comments, I'll I'll I'm sorry. You hadn't finished? No I hadn't. Alright, hold your horses then Mr Curtis. to two points You can pick that Do you want those picked up? No? Yes, my other points about Ryedale anyway. Er yes Chair, first of all the the last point first as it were, the erm Senior Inspector is quite correct what I was doing was allocating the nine seven figure that the County had proposed in H One, er that's why it doesn't add up add up to ten four, clearly I haven't done the calculations for ten four, but on the basis that erm there are seven hundred extra dwellings going into Ryedale, I think Mr Donson can work that one out. Erm in connection with erm with reference to the York area housing strategy, again, there is a simple explanation, in that that that document was prepared before the current work on the City of York draft local plan, had progressed to a stage at which members had considered housing sites, and a number of sites in City Council ownership erm within the city, covering some four hundred dwellings have now been agreed by the City Council members as coming forward over the planned period for affordable housing, and in the case of two of those sites it actually requires sites to be taken out of use as public car parks, to bring them forward for development, and that is why the eleven hundred figure is actually reduced now to to a seven hundred. Thank you. Mr Donson, do you want to continue now? Er yes, thank you very much. Sorry, my my my other point is about about Ryedale, and and and its its and its its unde its relationship to Southern Ryedale, and erm Mr Smith said that erm as far as Ryedale Council are concerned they can't identify any more land within Southern Ryedale, well of course they would say that because was there position at the Southern Ryedale plan, but the fact of the matter is that there was a great dispute at the York greenbelt Southern Ryedale plan enquiry,revol resolving around the issue of what were the bits of the greenbelt which made up the historic character and thereby what were you left with that potentially could be developed, albeit it might be reserved as white land in the first place, but could potentially be developed, and a great deal of this land on the disputed side lay in Southern Ryedale, that in that in fact there was a view around the table not only sh not only shared by by the developers side, but erm that large parts of Osbaldwick and Huntingdon didn't fall within the definition of greenbelt as as set out by by the County Council in their N Y Two Two document, now that matter clearly has got to be something left to the Inspector and the Greenbelt Inquiry, but I think it's fair to point out that there is actually a difference of view, so it's not an absolute position, that you can't identify more land within within Southern Ryedale, and indeed, erm, not that I want to raise the Local Government Commission's head again, but of course the Local Government Commission is proposing that York be a unitary authority expanded, and once Yor , if York does become a unitary authority expanded then some of these areas will fall within their area, and they may have a different view than er the Ryedale current Ryedale district council does, and therefore I think it is a little unsafe to take just at pure se pure face value, that there is no more land within Southern Ryedale that could be developed. I think we live with the local authority set up as we have it. Mr Smith, erm, obviously you want to respond to that, but at the same time could I just press you towards your view and it's really relevant to the districts surrounding York, that we know you can live with the figures of provision as set out by the County Council in the alteration, how ar are you aware of the figures which are being proposed by other participants in the discussion for Greater York? Yes. You are? Could you comment on whether you could live with an expanded requirement, er in South Ryedale? And if you could, how would you see it being met? I suspect you've already made that answered that that question. Ian Smith, Ryedale District. Erm yea,i I'll come back on that a couple of points, erm regarding Mr Donson erm and the Southern Ryedale and York greenbelt local plan inquiry. The site that was identified or potentially identified by by the house builders in York was a site which both the County Council and the District Council considered performed a number of greenbelt functions, I think that it would be accepted that in any development plan land should only be allocated if there were some degree of certainty that it would come forward for development within the plan period, the site that was identified, there had been no objections made to the Southern Ryedale local plan so therefore there were no indications that it would have come forward for development within that plan period anyway, had it been identified, had it been allocated. Erm regarding the question of erm additional sites for housing, I erm if I can turn to erm Barton Willmore's G One Ten erm in paragraph Can I, can I just pause you there? Have you had a copy of, dare I say it, the tabulation which was produced by the panel, which summarized the various er submissions, and if I just read them to you. The H B F figure for Greater York was twelve thousand three hundred, the Barton Willmore figure was twelve thousand seven hundred, but they did break it down on a district basis, and they gave five six five o to Ryedale, and then Michael Courcier, represented by Mr Sedgewick, a much more modest figure of ten thousand six hundred, for Greater York. Ian Smith, Ryedale District. Erm, as I've said before, I have reservations about whether a much increased figure about above the County Council's er proposal could be accommodated within Ryedale District Council, and I if the figure above that is proposed I would suggest that the extra is accommodated within the new settlement, which I presume the ar argue answer you would have expected from Ryedale, erm Barton Willmore's figure is based on an assumption that they believe that within Ryedale there is a capacity to increase past building rates, I would refute that, erm the building rates in Southern Ryedale I would suggest were abnormally high, because of the development of Clifton Moor airfield, the North Western part of the Southern Ryedale district, sorry South Western part. The land there is now nearly exhausted, and I would suggest that building rates in future years are in fact likely to decrease from what were abnormally high figures in the in the past ten year period. Yep, er er yes. L coming back to your other point I mean your saying you could not physically, or you would not wish to accommodate, let me put it that way, you would not wish to accommodate anything more than is now you're you're making provision for within the South Ryedale local plan Ian Smith can I just just pursue that you said said so the if you embarked on another scenario, and you said that the only way in which extra over, that beyond the figure proposed by the County Council, would be by way of a new settlement, I'm sort of transgressing my own ground rules here, I know that Ryedale has expressed support for the principle of a new settlement, are you saying that you would be looking for a new settlement, possibly in Ryedale? Ian Smith, Ryedale District. We would be looking for a new settlement in the best location around Greater York. I thought you'd say that. Was that meaning yes or no? Yes we support the principle, but the question about whether or not it should be in Ryedale district has not been erm answered by our members, and indeed it it we consider it should have wait, I mean this is answering something that'll be discussed at later within this issue, something that should not be er assessed until after the er Well, let's put it on the shelf for the time being. But I, we're going to have to discuss when we get to H Two just how you're going through the process of actually finding a site. If, you know, finding a site for a new settlement is an acceptable way forward, but I, let's leave it on the shelf for now. Mr Curtis. Thank you, Chair. Er David Curtis, York City Council. I'd just like to comment on two or three issues that were raised earlier. Clearly we do not wish to go through the same debate that we had at the greenbelt inquiry, erm but it is very relevant erm you'll see from our submissions to the panel that er quite clearly the City Council did not agree entirely with the proposed boundary of the greenbelt, the City Council did take the view that there were certain areas of land proposed to be included in the greenbelt er which did not fulfil a greenbelt function in the Council's view, and that was clearly was discussed at the greenbelt inquiry, it was not just one site, er we clearly were not not in our er responsibility to identify a specific site outside our district, but there were a number of areas er subject to those objections, not just from ourselves, but as Mr erm Donson has said er from various objectors. The greenbelt boundary as I mentioned earlier as proposed by the County Council is very tightly drawn, excluding the sites which have been mentioned which our allocated, there is no land between the edge of the urban area and the proposed greenbelt boundary and that does seem to us, continues to seem to us er not an appropriate way forward. In terms of the I'm sorry David, I thought In terms of the definition of er what is historic York I think again an issue we went over for some length of time at the greenbelt inquiry, I would draw your attention back to my earlier comments that York is basically a modern industrial city with a very precious historic core, that historic core er represents no more than actually five percent of the built up area, that something like eighty five percent of the city was built after eighteen hundred, the view that was expressed by the County in N Y Two, in terms of the definition of the greenbelt, the Greater York greenbelt and its purposes was not accepted by the City Council, we do not accept that all of the func elements of the York greenbelt contribute towards preserving the character of the historic city, we rely on the the fact that the two comments the Senior Inspector made at this, the the green wedges and historic core itself that establish the historic character of the city, there are many parts of the edge of York which could repli be replicated in many cities, historic or otherwise around the country and finally just coming back to the issue of scale of development erm the point I should have made earlier about the house builders figures for the city of York is that the house builders did suggest a figure of four thousand for the city, erm, I'm not aware on what basis that was made, but clearly my evidence would quite clearly indicate that I believe that could not be accommodated, certainly on any known sites within the cit current city boundary, thank you Chair. Mr Sedgewick, can I just ask Mr Sedgewick to . Sedgewick, Michael Courcier, and partners. As you know from our submission, sir,n we've taken a more modest requirement for the Greater York area, and that's based to some extent upon what we think is is achievable there, we're not saying that erm the figure should not be higher, we're not saying that the H B F figure for instance should nu not be er put in there, but what we're saying is if that higher figure does go in because of the clear constraints on the provision of additional land the the higher figure may well mean that there's a need for two new settlements ra rather than just one. The approach we've taken which is set set out in our our submission in section seven, we've we believe that maybe some nine hundred additional sites could be found, this is in addition to the existing allocations, er some nine hundred additional sites could be found within Greater York, by making changes to the boundary of the greenbelt, we you do it the greenbelt is too extensive in some parts, it can be rolled back without affecting the the purpose, erm Mr Donson's already already identified those areas, if that's the case, on our figures a settlement of fourteen hundred plus nine hundred on other sites is is is quite achievable. In the longer term, if there i is a need for a for addi additional supply that can be be done by increasing the size of the segment or or using some of this additional land. Thank you. Thank you. Mr Davis. This is very brief and solely for the record, Chairman, at the York greenbelt local plan inquiry the City Council made one objection, and one objection only, in respect of sites, and that was a site that straddled the York Selby boundary, that was there only expressed concern on sites specific objection, one site in the entire plan. That's a matter of record. Thank you. Well I think, probably ought to make it clear of course that we won't have available to us the greenbelt local plan enquiry, so Well certainly not in the period during which we're going to be discussing the various submissions, er un un at the E I P, now Mr Heselton, erm in a way your comments yesterday would probably be taken that Selby could cope, or would be prepared to cope, even with additional development, now you better sa tell me whether that's true or false, and I'm thinking particularly of that element of Greater Sel , of Selby which is in Greater York. Er, yes that's that's true to a degree, Chairman. Er Terry Heselton, Selby District. Erm well in in the context of what I did say yesterday it'll come as no great surprise to anyone that like Ryedale we also accept the North Yorkshire County County figures, erm which in short we we find are based on reasonable assumptions and and and an appropriate methodology, compared to some of the more extreme interpretations and projections that have that have been put forward, if I can illustrate that point by reference to er potential building rates, that the highest figure that's been suggested is the one put forward by Mr Grigson, of Barton Willmore, I'm talking for the moment about Greater York generally, and I'll come onto the Selby aspect in a minute. That's a suggested figure of twelve thousand seven hundred, which imply a building rate of eight hundred and forty six a year, in comparison with the adopted re er rate in the in the adopted plan of six o six and an actual building rate of seven o one, er my re calculation shows that that would be a thirty nine percent increase, over the adopted plan rate, and a twenty one percent increase over the actual rate. In comparison the er the the smallest projection put forward by Mr Thomas, would actually result in a twenty one percent decrease in building rates over that approved in the adopted adopted plan, and a thirty two percent increase over the actual rate experienced since nineteen eighty one. So I don't find either of those those two alternatives acc acceptable largely on the basis of of the arguments put put forward yesterday. Mhm, yes. So coming back more specifically to Selby, and taking er Mr Curtis's ball-park figure of of seventeen hundred, erm now already we've we've got approximately eight hundred and fifty committed in terms of a hundred and eighty con er completions, five hundred and sixty permissions including conversions, and a hundred and ten dwellings identified on a site at Elvington in in the Greater York study, and there's really not a great deal more flexibility, erm, because of the greenbelt constraint. We fully support and endorse the deposit greenbelt boundaries, then I think it's inescapable that at at some point that is going to lead us to leapfrogging over the greenbelt boundary, at some stage during the the the plan period, there may well be sufficient erm commitment and identified sites to to mop up in in the short term, but by the end of of the plan period it's it's my belief that there will be a need to address this issue by bringing forward proposals for a new settlement, er which obviously Selby district er full fully supports. And you would see that as an inevitable er way forward if you want to meet the housing provision in strategic terms in Greater York. That's that's right, I mean I I I would suggest that we've arrived at that point now, and we're increasingly likely to do so, because as we've already heard York is very constrained, it's it's it's a relatively small, compact, historic city, the greenbelt boundaries are drawn fairly tightly, correctly in so in in my opinion, and there's really not much room for manoeuvre within with er in a existing settlements within the greenbelt. Thank you. Mr Donson. Er Roy Donson, House Builders' Federation. I just wanted to take up the point that's been raised again, and it keeps popping its its little head up from time to time, this issue of building rates. I would say to you that the history of North Yorkshire County is that the house house builders have built, more or less the building rate of planning policy, whatever that has been, and that is a matter of fact, and if and if and if we are in a situation where the market is being fettered, as is the policy, and it's not a policy which we are seeking to go away from specifically, and it is inevitable that the house builders will build to whatever the policy building rate is, and comparisons of one building rate with another are simply telling you what's happened in the past, not what needs to happen in the future er in terms of meeting the housing requirement, and quite clearly in any area where you are introducing a new settlement, if indeed that's the conclusion we come to, er late later on, erm and I hope we do, but if we are introducing a new settlement you are bound to skew the building rates, and the more and more you reduce the area in which you consider what the building rate effect is the more and more that it actually gets skewed, er and erm you know, quite frankly, when the developers built a new estate at the end of my particular street the building rate went up alarmingly in my area, er and er you know, we can go on forever like that, I just think it's very misleading to just deal with the judgement of building rates. Mr Thomas. Thank you. I had thought that builders built houses when they thought they thought they could sell them, I didn't realize it was part of some altruistic policy of complying with planning policy, still we learn everything every day, don't we? Erm, sir, I want to address the point, if it's the right time about the level of housing provision the Greater York area in particular, erm that we've seen round the table here that we have special circumstances applying to York, and to its surrounding area. Erm I won't dwell on York city centre and its historic core because you're all clearly aware of that, but it its setting was accepted at the greenbelt enquiry as being sufficiently important to warrant protection wider than just its physical, existing physical limits, erm the special protection was accorded also to the the special character rather was accorded also to the surrounding countryside, much of which is very attractive, and many of the typical Yorkshire small villages and hamlets that surround the area as well, er and we're clearly in a position in Greater York which is different from the position that arises in many other counties and many other districts within this county, we're in a position of grave shortage of suitable, developable land, we're in a position of high quality er character, and landscape, we're in a position where York, in particular , has extremely good transportation links, to the Leeds Bradford conurbation, where we discuss at length over the last two days there are policies for urban regeneration, subject to regional planning guidance in that area erm and we're in a position where quite clearly York is under pressure, a great deal of pressure from migrants, er because it's a it's an attractive location to live. When you put all these factors together it concerns me that nobody has been advancing the case that as with other districts, some other districts in York, it would be appropriate, even more appropriate in my view, that the migration assumption should be discounted, there are in my view special reasons why this should be the case, special reasons over and above tho those that have been applied, to the other districts, this in my view would be that the Greater York housing provision for all those reasons I've just highlighted, should be reduced, should be reduced to the seventy five percent level, in other words that would be reducing it by between a thousand and twelve hundred and fifty houses, now I won't get on to the reason that the fact that that's one reason why there's no need for a new settlement, erm but it is a reason in its own right just to protect the character and the capacity requirements and the environmental sensitivities of the Greater York area. A second factor which I'd like to raise, and please stop me, sir, if I'm not playing your ground rules here, is to get back to the original point made by Mr Davis, as to how this figure is going to be split between the districts, I think it's absolutely essential that this figure is split between the districts, and it may well be, if you decide, sir, to recommend in favour of the new settlement that you may have to leave that as a floating figure to go around the districts, at the moment it is not. I would like to have more information from the County, or anyone else from the table for that matter, how this figure's going to be split, clearly P P G requires it to be split between district, and I'd like to see it split on that basis. Thank you, sir. Thank you, Mr Thomas. Erm I I get the impression from what you're saying is that there is a distinct strategic view which should be taken about York and its role, which in a way would tend to limit the amount of housing development you should be putting in and around York. Indeed, er and And that's the way the authorities should be moving forward with their planning for the county. I think that is the case, doubly so considering the discussion yesterday where we saw, that whether some of the districts liked it or not there is going to be development in excess of the projected figures in their relevant districts over the plan period. There is slack elsewhere to effect a redistribution to the benefit of York and its Greater York area. Probably an el well certainly an element which ought to be considered within the umbrella of the R P G but lets Indeed. wait and see what comes out of that. Er I'm glad you raised the point about the distribution between the districts, and apart from your comment er I know Mr Davis is opposed to the idea, I haven't discerned a view either way from anyone else, whether they would like them or would not like them. Well it seems to me, sir, that er the new settlement is becoming a bit of a dustbin which people are throwing their unspent allocations in, and then passing it around from district to district Mhm. and Selby are the people who are prepared to take it I have it maybe it maybe, sir, you should allocate all the housing to Selby, and we can all go home. I'm I'm about to apologize to Mr Grigson, because I see from his submission he actually did distribute it by district within the er Greater York area, er yea, planning by Selby is not I think the right approach, but. Mr Cunnane, sorry, Mr Grigson, you want to come in? Well i I'm happy, I mean I was just going to make that point, sir, but I do have other points, but I'll wait . Can we have Mr Cunnane, then Mr Sedgewick, and then we will have a coffee break. Chairman. Joe Cunnane. My point is a very short one, I I simply need to put it on the record that it is erm our position that the panel should distribute the er ove York overspill, if I can call it that, as well, that the panel should address the issue of distribution, because our fear is th is th is is is the Selby problem, that Selby are embarked upon a clear strategy of er substantial growth, and we do not want to see er the Greater York overspill being unduly er dir funnelled channelled in that direction. Thank you. Mr Sedgewick. Sedgewick, Michael Courcier and partners. Our position in in the submission was that if there is not the the need to distribute York's own population around Greater York, then the argument for a separate Greater York figure disappears. The the original purpose was to to deal with problems arising within the city of York. If you feel from the discussion around the table that the u requirements of York have not been properly reflected in the the published H One figure er and that there is a need to distribute that population, and therefore there is going to be a Greater York figure. The overlap with the districts needs to be eradicated, it's a black hole at the moment, every district can pass a its surplus on to another district, and indeed it would be the last district to prepare a district wide local plan that has to meet the residue of the Greater York requirement, it may maybe a good stimulus for the districts to get on with their local plans, but that's not an planning way. What we would advocate, as indeed Mr Smith did earlier, is that there should be a a global figure for Greater York, and a reduction, in an appropriate reduction in the requirement for each district, and I believe that anticipating you might ask me what that is what that reduction should be, erm I I can say it must be related to the ca capacity, of that district within Greater York. That proposition presupposes that if you make a reduction in the district figures, then you must have an idea what the district contribution towards the Greater York figure is, er and I find it difficult to see that you can have, if you have a new settlement, if you have a new settlement the C provision for the new settlement floating in this table, erm but can I just say before we adjourn for coffee, that I really would like to have some very firm answers to the questions which are posed under issue two, er and particularly about two D and that is specific guidance on the location of the new settlement. Assuming you end up with a new settlement. Can we break for coffee? Yes. Sir announced the the end of debate one, I certainly wasn't under the impression that it had finished. Well, I've got, if you you just bear with me a moment, I still have one foot dragging in H one, but I thought we'd got to the stage where in order to try and clarify thinking on the matter we ought to progress onto H two, erm, that just let me reveal the thinking, erm that, before I do that can I just say in terms of mechanics those of you who have just joined us for the first time, could you turn your name boards round so I can see them, thank you, and when you want to come in the normal practice is to put your name board on end, so it will attract our attention. But just let me come back to the the point I want to make, it is it evident to us from what was said yesterday collectively by the District Councils, that they could live with the figure of forty one thousand two hundred, as proposed by the County Council, without a new settlement. There's a corollary to th that was is our impression, from the various views that were sp s spelt out around the table. You'll have a chance to come back on whether we have got the wrong impression on that, I mean I recall Mr Heselton's quite clearly, but let me pursue that at a stage further if if we take that as our impression of what you have said collectively, and you are asked to make provision for nine thousand seven hundred dwellings, again collectively in the Greater York area, and I'm addressing this question to the districts, what provision would you make in your districts of your district figure in the Greater York area? Mr Davis, you want to make a comment? Well I was I've looked, Peter Davis, North Yorkshire, I've just glanced down the table at certainly at the er my Greater York district colleagues, and er certainly we er are rather surprised that er you have the impression that you have the impression that er erm we could do without the erm the new settlement, quite clearly erm erm certainly Harrogate, Selby, er and Ryedale, and the County Council, believe the the new settlement is absolutely essential, erm and I think that's erm erm certainly a matter of agreement between er us and those three districts, it's absolutely essential. I think the point, I think the point we're making is that none of the districts yesterday told us that to meet their figure in H one they would need to have a new settlement, for example, I well remember Selby saying to us if we go above our H one figure we would need a new settlement, but they did not say to meet our H one figure we would need a new settlement. Mr Heselton. It's in that Sorry. context that we are ask now want to get clarification from the District Councils as to what proportion of there H one figure would be in the Greater York area. Er may may I reply, please? Mr Heselton first, yes. Thank you. Terry Heselton, Selby District. Er it yes it it's true to tell, gone on record on several occasions saying in terms of environmental capacity there's the potential within Selby district to accommodate eleven and a half thousand dwellings, however I did later qualify those comments with reference to the emerging local plan, which is the main vehicle we've we've got for identifying potential development sites and the the qualification was that was that land is not necessarily available in in the right places, to enable us to make a a reasonable distribution for development in accordance with P P G advice, so that the question of a new settlement remains an extremely attractive option for Selby District, and as I mentioned this morning, in terms of whi we would be approximately eight hundred and fifty dwelli whi we would be approximately eight hundred and fifty dwellings short, in any case, erm How much are you saying would be in the Greater York area in your district? Well I haven't suggested a a figure, I made reference and I also referred to the fact that when you then discounted completions, identified sites, and existing measurements, you would be approximately eight hundred and fifty dwellings short. Short of Mr short of Mr Curtis's figure ? If if if I be yes, Mr Curtis's ball-park figure. Mhm, so we'll we'll credit you with minus eight fifty, shall we? This probably being the best Er as as a basic starting point yes. Yes. Mr Allanby. Er David Allanby, Harrogate Borough Council. Erm first of all Chairman I would confirm that it is our view that with a provision of six thousand five hundred for Harrogate district, we don't think we'd be looking at a new settlement to serve our needs, erm, having said that, we support the Greater York strategy, and we we certainly the level of provision erm for Greater York as proposed by the County Council, er but leaving aside for one moment the issue of a new settlement, it is our view that we'll be able to accommodate the level of growth that I think is anticipated in our district, erm, within the figures, and I'm referring specifically to N Y one, and the table on the last page where there's an indication there of the sort of of er housing numbers that would would have to be accommodated within Harrogate district, and and our part of Greater York is essentially a rural character consisting of a a number of small villages, so there there we have er a total figure of two hundred dwellings to be provided within our part of Greater York, that basically represents erm existing commitments and a a yield from small sites in the future, perhaps conversions, and we'r we're quite happy with that. I think our view is that if that provision was to be any greater, then we would have significant difficulty in accommodating that provision within our part of Greater York, primarily for for greenbelt considerations, not reasons, erm any additional provision would require a rolling back of the greenbelt, er significant provision would have two implications, erm either it would mean peripheral expansion er of York into the greenbelt around York and into our district, we feel that would adversely affect the special character of York, lead to outward sprawl of the York urban area, encroachment into open countryside, and coalescence of the urban area with the villages in our district, er and we we wouldn't want to support that. The other option would be expanding the villages themselves, and we find that that would be equally harmful, so we'd be opposed to any significant additional development in our district over and above that that's that's been assumed in that table. Mhm. If I if m I summarize that, I know Harrogate have supported the principle of a new settlement within the Greater York figure, but you hadn't anticipated that it would bite on your district, if I can use that word. We er haven't er certainly been through or down the road of looking at whether there are sites within our district that that could accommodate that, that exercise is still to be done. But if I put it another way, you could meet your anticipated contribution to the Greater York figure as spelt out in the structure plan? That's right, sir. Ninety seven hundred. Thank you. Mr Jewitt. Michael Jewitt, Hambledon District. Michael Jewitt, Hambledon District Council. Erm, before we leave item one D, sir, there are two things that Hambledon would like to say both on the q questions that the Chairman asked, capacity, and also on the principal of breaking down the Greater York figure i into the constituent districts, erm, the first point, on capacity, erm, we feel that we have a very limited capacity, er to accommodate development needs advising in Greater York, you'll see from our statement that we have just two settlements an , sorry three settlements in two parishes er within the defined Greater York area, Shipton, Beningborough, and Overton. Two of these settlements have just ten and eleven dwellings respectively, erm Shipton is the only settlement of any consequence erm being two hundred and er twenty dwellings. Now, within that overall context it it really would be meaningless to identify a contribution for Hambledon in terms of Greater York, as this erm figures are so are so small. The second point being that erm if a figure was to be identified for Greater York, we'd feel that this would er unduly interfere with our duties and responsibilities as a District Council to allocate land in our district, cos in effect what it would do is direct us to making a housing allocation in one particular settlement, Shipton, we feel that's our responsibility not the County Council. Mhm. Mhm. Isn't Go on, go on. Isn't there an argument, and perhaps I am st getting now onto two, matter two, that says from Hambledon's point of view, what has just been said is compelling, is a compelling argument in favour of identifying where the new settlement should go, because that will, at the same time, identify where it should not go? Ah erm well, Chairman, I I think that this is something that's going to cut, as far as Hambledon's got concerns, is going to come up in the erm in the next debate, certainly, erm, the erm, the issue of erm whether policy should be expressed in terms of principle and criteria, or erm area and a district as being a dilemma erm to Hambledon, erm, it feels it's erm erm not being able to support the policy as defined, because ultimately the Council would object to a new settlement in Hambledon. Erm, and therefore it feels it would be disingenuous of it to support the principle at this stage, it may well lead to a situation where were encouraging the County to go down a particular route, but only to get to the very end of it for us to pull the rug from beneath the County's feet. Mm. Yes, erm we are aware of the the view that the District Council have expressed, about the new settlement, that's perfectly clear. But if I just turn your attention to the figures that are postulated in the County Council's N Y one, the tabulation in paragraph twenty on the last page, it's attributed forty dwellings due in Hambledon, more or less. My understanding of the situation in Hambledon is that there are, we're talking only small figures I realize, there are twenty commitments currently, within that area, erm clearly there are going to be some unidentified sites come forward erm, I don't wish to er critical of that figure, I would accept the figure. Sorry? I would accept that figure and Thank you. Yes. Mr Smith, Ryedale. Chairman. Ian Smith Ryedale District. I've already said this morning that the District Council does not consider that it can accommodate any further dwellings within the Southern Ryedale area without adversely affecting the character of the settlements that are already there, or compromising greenbelt objectives, erm, so therefore to meet the Greater York total, the District Council considers it essential that there is a new settlement to take that amount of housing that cannot be accommodated within the Southern Ryedale area. What figure can you accommodate in South Ryedale? Part of. Sorry, in Rye in the Ryedale part of the Greater York. If you look at table, at the County Council's M Yes. Y one, erm Is that the one you can live with? We could live with that figure, and indeed our local plan is based on on that sort of a figure, being accommodated within that area. And the York figure we take as three thousand three hundred, Mr Curtis. Dave Curtis, York City Council. Yes, sir. And ou and going back to Mr Heselton, he has said i , I've got a negative factor for him at the moment in terms of minus eight fifty, but let let me let me take the figure which is actually quoted in the County Council's table of nine fifty dwellings. Is it nine fifty, or is it something slightly higher, or something less? Er, Terry Heselton, Selby District. Erm, I believe the figure of nine fifty also includes a an allowance for windfalls windfalls. Mr Heselton, I understood you said when we started this debate that you were eight hundred and fifty short, or thereabouts, of Mr Curtis's pro-rata figure, which was four thousand two hundred. Did I misunderstand ? No, er Mr Curtis's er hypothetical figure Yes. of seventeen hundred. Mm. I beg your pardon? Yes. Which takes you back to nine fifty. Sorry, eight fifty. Eight fifty, more Yes. or less. Yes. Hypothetical. So in progressing through there, and I'm sorry we haven't done it this way, we end up in terms of the County Council figure of nine seven hundred for Greater York, possible er provision from, collectively from the districts of about fourteen hundred, fifteen hundred short. Is my arithmetic correct? Yes. Thank you. Mr Grantham. Erm And then Mr Thompson. Er I just want wanted to to pick up on your your opening remarks, sir, after coffee, that that the impression you had was that the the the districts, erm, could live with a that the County Council figures. Erm with without a new settlement erm that that was indeed the the impression that erm I was left with as well, and what what we've sought to do in in the evidence that we've we've put before you is to take the nine seven, nine thousand seven hundred figure in Greater York, and and er s based on the data supplied by the County Council to to demonstrate that that actually when one looks at outstanding commitments erm with planning permission, identified the sites er without planning permission, those those that are allocated in local plans, making suitable allowances for small sites erm windfall sites and conversion, erm the the residual figure that is left in Greater York, which I calculate to be eight thousand six hundred and thirty seven, once one has taken away completions, which I think is an agreed figure between nineteen ninety one and nineteen ninety three of one thousand and sixty three, that erm, those existing commitments, and the sites likely to come forward,ma virtually match the figure for the outstanding housing requirement, so so one is left with a view that erm from from the data that's put in front of us that there isn't a residue of that size to to accommodate, although I accept that there may well be a residue of some sort, erm and it seems to me that the established Greater York erm framework, er is is the process by which that is distributed around the counties along the lines that the discussion's proceeded this morning. In that context I think it would be helpful to us erm if we could have submitted to us a version of the table originally submitted by the H B F relating to commitments. Relating solely to the Greater York area. If you remember at the end of yesterday, Mr Donson will no doubt correct me if I'm wrong, he fige finished up, we started the day with a total guaranteed minimum of about thirty three and a half thousand, we got that up by arithmetic to thirty four point nine thousand, and I think we finished up at around thirty six thousand at the end of the day. I think it would be very helpful to the panel to know what proportion of that thirty six thousand is within the district, within the Greater York area, don't ask for that to be done now, because it may well involve some difficult arithmetic, perhaps it's tonight's homework. Is that possible Mr Donson? Roy Donson, House Builders' Federation, it's not possible by me, no, but Right. I'll I'll leave it to the Your sources your sources of supply are on the other side of the room. Indeed they are, yes. Thank you. Mr Thomas. Yes, thank you, sir. I think that the districts there possibly given the exception of Selby have taken a rather cautious approach as to what they anticipate being built in their areas within the Greater York area itself er over the next thirteen years. Er a similar cautious approach which none of them took yesterday when on examination it was found that there was more potential there than before, erm so to help with the figures I have found very helpful erm appendix eight to the er York City Council erm statement, I think it appears in both of their statements appendix eight Greater York housing provision sorry, could could I also direct you at the same time to the County Council's N Y five appendix three now the, the two make interesting comparisons because they both start of with the same H one proposal of nine thousand seven hundred dwellings, and I'll remind you there, sir, that only five thousand seven hundred of those are required by the existing population, four thousand of those are for migrants, and the two schedules go of in slightly different directions under the heading of completions, and the reason for that, sir, is that the the Greater York, the er County Council's figures, as you can see were computed in October nineteen ninety two when only seven hundred dwellings had been completed, yet six months later, under item C for the Greater York er housing provision figure, York Ci York City Council figures, the completions were one thousand and sixty three. Erm, I'll not go through the whole of this table sir, but I do want you to look at the next column, outstanding planning permissions. In October nineteen ninety two the outstanding planning permissions were three thousand three hundred and fifty, in April nineteen ninety three, there were three thousand four hundred and seventy three. In fact sir, the County Council's figures produced in another appendix, can't lay my hands on it at the moment, had put this figure in as three thousand six hundred and fifty, but the nub of those two things are, that over that six month period, we're not only seeing more houses built but we have more consented, and that hasn't affected the residue that appears in the rest of these schedules. Now the County Councils and the City Council's assessment of the capacity of the Greater York study sites are roughly the same, you can see, sir, that as things have moved forward in only a six month period, the City Council calculate there's a residual requirement of nine hundred and forty seven dwellings, only twenty five percent of the migration assumption, none hundred and forty seven dwellings left, compared to the County Council's outdated information which suggested it's one thousand three hundred and thirty five. Both of those figures, sir, exclude any windfalls whatsoever over the next thirteen years, now if that is a justification for a new settlement, I'm a disbeliever. It clearly is not the case, that, we have heard from the city this morning, and in the city alone windfalls have been progressing at the rate of eighty per annum, if it was only half that rate over the next thirteen years we would see five hundred more houses, and that excludes windfalls from the rest of the Greater York area, excluding the city of York. It is quite clear, sir, that on the existing allocations, thirteen years to go, that the figure of nine thousand seven hundred dwellings, if you want to stick by that figure, my view it should be lower because it has too much an assumption for migration in a constrained area, if you want to stick by that figure, the nine thousand seven hundred will be reached without a new settlement, of that I have no doubt whatsoever. Now, a new settlement option is a last ditch option, we're far from being the last ditch here, we're hardly the first ditch. Thank you. Thank you. Mr Grigson. Thank you, sir. Steven Grigson, Barton Willmore. I will want to come back on the same point that's just been made, but if before I get to that there are some other points that I think I should make in explanation of the lead we have given, if I may call it that, in putting forward the distribution of the Greater York total. I think it's necessary to to set the scene for that to say that in fact as between the County Council and Barton Willmore there's very little difference in what we see are the requirements for the ring around the city, we both have a figure of of six thousand and something quite small. The difference between our figures for Greater York and the County Council's figures for Greater York arise almost entirely within York City, and bi I think been established earlier this morning that some overspill, albeit the size maybe in dispute, is necessary from the city into the ring. Erm I think it's also now pretty much common ground that the capacity of York city is around three thousand three hundred, but I think in in in taking an view on that, and in taking any view o on future windfalls, it is necessary for the panel to keep in mind that historically in the nineteen eighties windfalls were coming through at a time when it was not a adopted local plan for the city of York, so to some extent anything by definition of a substantial size was likely to be a windfall, erm, but also more to the point than that definitional point, I would expect to see, and I think what Mr Curtis has said earlier on that the local plan is likely to tighten up on criteria for release of sites, both small and large, he referred to the shortage of open space, and I would expect to see a policy change in short, a policy climate change, within the city of York that would constrain past historical rates of windfall release. So that I think the situation affecting the Greater York area is that there wis there is a requirement to accommodate within the ring part of the needs of the city, and on our best estimate that er I apologize for the word overspill, but it it is descriptive, is of the order of three thousand three hundred dwellings to be accommodated in the ring which after the needs of York. I don't intend to discuss the housing, whether seven hundred acres, sorry seven l land for seven hundred houses is owned by the City of York, that's not part of our case one way or the other, but we have offered you a distribution of the Greater York provision figure between the districts, because from Barton Willmore's very extensive experience of participation in local plan work up and down the country, I think we share the view that er City of York have, that Ryedale have, my colleagues to the left and right on this side of the table have, that there does need to be a distribution, otherwise there will be at best confusion as to whether local plans comply with the structure plan, and at worst a game of of pass the parcel and everybody will be conforming, but nobody will actually be possibly meeting the figures, and that is the situation that I don't think anybody would wish to see as a result of er the outcome of of alteration number three, I mean I don't know how the County Council would would really be able to to say whether they thought a local plan conformed to the structure plan, without knowing what that distribution was, perhaps in some bottom draw manner which is not now the approved way of going about these things, so that I think there does need to be a distribution for the proper planning of York, and before coming on to our to explain our figures a little bit, I should also say, perhaps in in response to remarks Mr Thomas made earlier on about the general character of the York area and the need to to protect that, that that course is precisely what the greenbelt is for, and what it does, it isn't necessary to extend that concept across the whole of the vale of York, and therefore to seek to er discount migration outside the greenbelt. That is what the greenbelt is actually there for, and if you have it there for that purpose, as I said yesterday, the necessary corollary is that you have additional provision beyond it, and I can't resist to offer Mr Wincup some support, I'm sure one piece of evidence that he gave you about the letter from the Parish Council, he's probably already replied to that Parish Council saying, as you're in the York greenbelt have no fear, all the Selby needs will pass straight across your heads and land somewhere else. The erm point about are distribution within Greater York is that we have attempted to look at this in what I think is a a rational and realistic manner, we have looked, and you'll see this from our supplementary paper, I apologize for its lateness, but I think it's benefited from the additional thought that could be given to it, we have looked both backwards, at the present day, and forwards, we've looked backwards at past build rates, we've looked at the present day position in the sense of the population shares within Greater York, and we've looked forwards in terms of the commitment figures that are given in the N Y one paper that we've just been looking at, and taking all those things into account, and adding in what we see as the right location for a new settlement, namely Selby district, we come to the figures that are in our supplementary paper, and there is clearly a great deal of common ground between the evidence you get from looking either at past building rates or population shares, as now, or future commitments which all point towards a broadly similar distribution, we say, with the addition of a new feature namely the new settlement, so that I commend those figures to you as somebody who's actually dared to put their toe, or maybe their whole body into the water, and given you not only some numbers, but also a basis by which if you should er have a different Greater York figure in mind, a basis on which that could be rationally er approached, I would not certainly defend to the last ditch the need to put a figure of fifty dwellings into the structure plan for the Hambledon part of Greater York, there may be a cut off point beyond which you don't go, but certainly for Ryedale and Selby, with very substantial numbers there is a need to indicate what the appropriate division should be, and you could not for instance indicate what the er Ryedale non Greater York figure was, without someone telling us the, as the Chairman rightly said, having an idea of what the Ryedale Greater York figure should be, so it isn't really I think feasible to have district figures for non Greater York, and one Greater York figure, that doesn't er get away from the issue, and nor does it solve the potential for confusion. My final point, is that, and we have had it raised this morning, erm from er I think it was consultants on behalf of the C P R E that there was sufficient capacity within Greater York, and they referred to a table in their and their submission. I had a close look at that table, obviously a matter of some interest and that's the reason I return to this, as I read the table, there is a very substantial amount of double counting within it, for this reason, that all outstanding er planning permissions are included once, and there are then separate categories of allowance for all types of sites, namely large windfalls, conversions, small sites, and allocated sites, those are all put in, er or most of them are put in at thirteen years worth, that being the remainder of the plan period to two thousand and six, it will not have escaped you that if you include thirteen years worth all the existing commissions are part of that thirteen years, and so simplest approach to correct that table would simply to discount the outstanding commitments, because they're all counted again as part of the thirteen years, I do have a secondary point that the allowance for conversions is very much higher than what seems to be happening, and in what is in the tables that er Mr Thomas drew it to your attention from the York City er appendix eight, so that er on on two counts, but mainly the double counting one there is a great deal of er erm optimism, if I can call it that, in that table. Thank you. Thank you. Mr Curtis. Thank you Chair. David Curtis, York City Council. Er I merely want to comment on the erm apparent misunderstanding on my comments on windfalls earlier on, erm it has been suggested that we we're tightening down on windfalls, was the quote actually used, erm, there is no intention in the local plan to er ignore the er windfalls, to actually deal with them in a different way than had happened in the past, clearly if sites come forward which are windfalls which are suitable in environmental terms then the City Council will give, as P B G one requires, the appropriate consideration to those applications, what I was merely saying this morning was the the likelihood of such windfalls coming forward, and the scale was clearly going to be substantially less than had occurred in the past, and the the figure of eighty a eighty a year, which was for a five year period, which was quoted to me, erm clearly would not be representative of my expectation of the future. Thank you. Er Mr Spittle. Malcolm Spittle, County Council. Erm I was going to pick up on a number of points that have been raised by previous speakers, but erm Mr Grigson and Mr Curtis seem to have er dealt with a few of those, erm just with regard to the the table put in by C P R E, with their figures, I would just agree with Mr Cur er Mr Grigson that there is a very substantial degree of double counting in those figures, there is also a very substantial degree of over provision in the allowance for for conversions, er past conversion rates in Greater York have averaged something like twenty nine dwellings per year, over a fifteen year period your talking about four hundred and thirty five dwellings, which is the figure that both York City Council and ourselves have have made allowance for for conversions, that compares with a figure of a thousand dwellings referred to by the C P R E and I see no foundation for that figure, erm, as I say Mr Curtis already picked up on the point about windfalls rates by Mr Thomas, erm just turning to the difference between the tables er submitted by the County Council and York City Council on the the residue within the er Greater York area, I would accept the figure, the figures put in the tables by Mr er by Mr Curtis, I think that they have picked up the the more recent planning permissions and the completions information, and they also take on board there more recent work on erm development within the city, and I I accept that table. Thank you. Mr Smith. Ian Smith, Ryedale District. I'd like to comment on Mr Grigson's table, in particular the figure proposed for Ryedale, er his figure is based on the assumption that because Selby gets the new settlement it therefore gets a corresponding reduction in house building elsewhere in the Greater York portion of Selby. The development strategy adopted in the Greater York study never envisaged that the settlement, or the district that got the new settlement would therefore get a corresponding reduction in the amount of land it had to provide to meet the needs of the Greater York area, the strategy we use to identify sites within the Greater York area that could be developed without compromising greenbelt objectives, and that the new settlement would be added on outside that area without a reduction in that that figure. Mhm. Mr Cunnane. Er Joe Cunnane,Sa representing Sam Smith's Brewery Tadcaster. Just like to make a comment on Mr Grigson's submission erm points on erm the Greater York figure. First of all I should point out that the Nor the County Council er figure of none thousand seven hundred is actually a figure for local needs plus one hundred percent migration, and if you follow Mr Thomas's figures that leaves a residual requirement of nine hundred and forty seven dwellings without any windfalls over the next thirteen years, which is quite inconceivable, so in order to establish his point on the need for the new settlement on tha on on his figures, the Bar Mr Grigson of Barton Willmore has to up the figure for Greater York to twelve thousand seven hundred, as set out in his erm paper. The s the point I would make is that first of all I don't accept that twelve thousand seven hundred is er a tenable figure but that, probably the more important point is that there has to be a policy response, and a policy response to this issue demands that there is at least some response to the mi to the level of migration er you know my my my view has been put forward very clearly about that, but I would simply make make the point for the record that even accepting one hundred percent migration, there is no statistical case for a new settlement. Thank you. Mr Sedgewick. Sedgewick, Michael Courcier and Partners. The may maybe I just comment on that that last that last point, which as I understand it it the the justification for a new settlement is brought about solely by increasing the requirement for Greater York to twelve thousand seven hundred, going through those figures there seems to me, for instance, for both Ryedale and Selby to be more provision than could be met in a single settlement, I I think the the figures put forward by Barton Willmore are more than can be met in existing allocations and a single new settlement of a reasonable size. So I I think the new settlement remains justified even with the significantly lower figure for Greater York. Mhm. Thank you. I noted the point, erm I think to some extent we probably can now move forward to H two, in in a proper sense, but I'll ask Mr Davis er A if he wishes to give some reaction to the last few comments er and then your lead in to H two. Mr Grigson said he really . I assume Mr Grigson, as he hasn't raised his board has said all he wants to say at this stage on the points that have been made. In relation to factor . Do you want anything else on matter one, Mr Grigson. Mr Grigson, for Barton Willmore. I don't feel any need to respond on on Ryedale o or to Michael Courcier. There was one little bit of leftover, as you've given me an opportunity before I depart, and that was that erm we did discuss earlier today, under this heading the possibilities of erm their being sites on the inner edge or between the built up area, or there might become sites between the built up area and the inner edge of the greenbelt, I think the implication was they may be in Ryedale. My understanding is that A those don't exist at present within the deposit plan, but if they did at some future date, for any reason, that their function would be to be used after two thousand and six to sustain the permanence of the greenbelt. Thank you very much. Mr Davis. Yes. I think just two points. Er erm we think the nine thousand seven hundred dwellings based on one hundred percent migration for the Greater York area is the appropriate strategic approach erm for the Greater York area, the County Council does not see the need for any policy intervention in terms of migration, in respect of Greater York in the way it feels is necessary in respect of er of four other districts. Erm on a general point about the ability to find extra land, erm in and around the urban area erm of York, particularly erm on the inner edge er of the greenbelt. Having been through the six months of the greenbelt local plan enquiry, I can say quite clearly to this er examination in public, that I doubt whether there is the land available erm er around the inner edge erm erm to increase the level of of housing development in and around the city without seriously prejudicing greenbelt objectives. Thank you. Now, before you make your opening statement in the context of H two we have some extra papers to distribute. Er, Mr Donson leaving us? Yes. Mr Grigson leaving us. They both are . It would be appropriate to say something Yes. to them. Is Donson coming back? Is Grigson coming back? Grigson? I do I don't know. I don't have handy Don Donson isn't yet. Erm. Just a minute. Mr Grigson, are you retiring altogether from the fray? Yes I am, yes, sir. Thank you very much for your contribution. Thank you. Ah, Mr Brighton. Mhm. No, Mr Mr Donson's with us all this week. We've put the slightly put the cat among the pigeons. Pardon? Haven't we put the cat among the pigeons? Yes, indeed. It was all that capacity elsewhere. I know.. I mean that's more capacity than we need to . Tosh. . Do your . do your black do your white dots drop into the black hole? . . we have a . Right. It's very difficult to roll A and B together. . Mhm? I wouldn't have said. No? Alright. I know what you . Well what's one new settlement to No, two is two is a very important. Yes, I know that. a copy, a copy of these yet, Which we've nearly . Alright. Thank you. Ah. Are you ready to go tell me tell me when. Alright okay. . No. Alright. Thanks. So can we now move in the formal sense to looking at the next issue for discussion, which covers policy H two, the Greater York new settlement, and the first part of the issue which we shall address is, does the proposed Greater York new settlement represent an appropriate and justified policy response to the assessed development land requirements of the Greater York area, and I'll ask Mr Davis to make his introductory statement. Peter Davis, North Yorkshire County Council. Thank you Chairman. I'll go straight into er item two A I think the first thing the County Council would would wish to say this erm examination is that er today we are really seeing the culmination of I suspect er ten year work erm in Greater York by the Greater York authority and a particularly intensive period of work over the last five years, er by the Greater York authorities, the paper that I put round N Y five the matter two A really addresses the history and why we reached the conclusions corporately that we have and as all as we've already indicated erm progress was able to be made when the Secretary of State included a Greater York er dimension erm into the er into the structure plan in a the first alteration, erm and that enabled a body of work to be undertaken by the Greater York authority, and I think I ought to say at this point that the Greater York authority comprises of the County Council er and five District Councils, and there you have six different councils, all with an interest in the future of Greater York, sitting down together, trying to sort out the way in which the future of Greater York erm ought ought to be developed, and the means they did it did that of course was through the Greater York study, which began in nineteen eighty eight and started off immediately with a study of forty, fifty development, potential development sites, erm in and around er er Greater York which produced a report, as I said in on page three of the of N Y five, around about April nineteen eighty nine, the conclusions of which were quite clearly unacceptable to erm members of the Greater York authority, because they saw quite clearly, and they were supported by the public in this, that to continue peripheral development, which had been the pattern of development in the Greater York area, erm certainly through the sixties and seventies er was unacceptable in terms of its impact on settlements, and particularly er its impact erm on erm erm the York greenbelt which still at that stage erm had yet to be made statutory, and that was again one of the main stimuli to making progress, the need to s formally define er the York greenbelt. The Greater York authorities therefore looked for a widening of the options available, er, in Greater York, and those that have seen the Greater York study, and it is a document that we've put in to the examination will see that there was a fundamental full scale wide ranging er assessment er of all the options er open er within the er Greater York er area and they are er set out erm in pages three er and four of N Y five. The public consultation exercise that was part of that erm Greater York study, and quite clearly the Greater York study was not a statutory plan, it was an informal plan, but it was the only way really that progress could be made in the absence erm of adopted local plans in Greater York, it was essential that that document was pursued to give a framework for the preparation of district local plans er and the greenbelt local plan, and the resolution that followed the consultation and the long body of work, and I'll read it out, was that the development strategy for Greater York from ninety six to two thousand and six should be based on agreed sites within and on the periphery of the built up area, and that the residual requirement be met for the development of a new settlement or settlements located beyond the outer boundary erm of the greenbelt, a quite clearly there's a major policy implication there that a new settlement was not acceptable within the greenbelt but would have to be er outside the outer boundary of the greenbelt, and the public consultation on that er study er attracted widespread support for a new settlement strategy in Greater York, all six authorities agreed that that was the direction er that had to be taken, it also had another benefit in that it enabled work on the York greenbelt local plan erm to proceed and that has now been taken forward to the stage where the enquiry terminated in May, it's a joint enquiry in the greenbelt local plan enquiry, with a Southern Ryedale local plan enquiry in April ninety three, and we would hope that the inspectors report on that six month enquiry, when he considered all the objections to the er greenbelt proposals of the County Council, largely supported by the er District Council will be available er in the near future. The County Council also accepted as part of this oral approach that there was a need for an alteration to the structure plan, because the approved structure plan did not make provision for a new settlement as an element of approved North Yorkshire strategic policy, and we've progressed that erm alteration through to the examination er in public er today. So the current position is that there's been substantial progress er in Greater York, and I think its testimony to the willingness of the Greater York authorities to work together there that there's been such a level of agreement I think probably er never before achieved in the Greater York area as to the direction that Greater York erm er should take. We think that on balance we have er the majority of the support of the public at large within Greater York, that this is the strategic er approach that is necessary for Greater York, it's necessary to protect the greenbelt and it's necessary to protect communities and villages er in and around erm Greater York. Could I also say one thing finally, and that is the fact that we've tried to run together the alteration and the greenbelt local plan as concurrently er as possible, er it would appear that the timing erm is coming together reasonably satisfactorily erm in that we hope that the report from the greenbelt local plan enquiry, is not to er far distant, erm and we would expect, sir, that you will be reporting on the proceedings at this examination in public er in the not to distant future, well I think I did give an undertaking at the greenbelt local plan enquiry that the County Council, because the two are er interrelated to a degree, that I would expect the County Council would not wish to pursue either report er until er the other er is available, and that seems to the County Council to be entirely sensible, that the two reports, the structure plan alteration and the greenbelt local plan enquiry, erm should be looked at together. There we are, sir, that's erm er er a very brief history erm of erm er of the new settlement strategy, erm it's one clear that the County Council thinks is the appropriate way erm er for the Greater York area er to proceed. Thank you. Thank you. I noted, and we've already had the flavour of it, in to some respect today, that initially you had almost unanimity of support from the District Councils er York City have changed their view erm and equally Hambledon are very luke warm, if I put it no more than that, er on the idea of a new settlement in the sense that they probably support the principle of the new settlement, but not in Hambledon. But could you comment, and no doubt Mr Curtis will also want to amplify why York er seem to have cooled on the idea. There is a there is reference in your paper to that. Yes. Peter Davis, North Yorkshire County Council. I mean York City Council will obviously er Mr Curtis will obviously give his views on the situation, erm the particular issue that seems to have changed the mind of York City Council is the reference in P P G thirteen, transport to sizes of new settlement not being erm er desirable in in in transport terms, small scale resettlements. Now there is no definition of what's small erm erm is erm in er P P G er thirteen and perhaps Mr Curtis could help us in due course erm on an assumption that the new settlement was somewhat larger that th what the County Council is proposing, whether that would erm change the view of York City Council, I I think there is another factor again I could be corrected on this by Mr Curtis and this tended to come out in the greenbelt local plan enquiry, er and that York City Council seem progressively to place more importance on peripheral development than on the new settlement strategy Mhm. erm that is my general feeling for erm erm erm the position, York's emerging views erm at the greenbelt local plan enquiry erm weren't shared by the districts er which surround the city, or by the County Council. Strictly on P P G two terms er because of the effect er on the greenbelt, but I wouldn't want to go any further than that, that's my impression, Mr Curtis will undoubtably correct me if I'm wrong. Yes, I mean I noticed from the draft P P G thirteen that they do not define small. How small is small? Mr Curtis, do you want to Yes, thank you, Chair. come back on that? David Curtis, York City Council. Erm, clearly their is a a long history of cooperation between the authorities on Greater York, and er I think it is important to explain the development of thinking on that, and the reasons why the City Council has, I would say progressively, er reduced its er the warmth of its enthusiasm to such a state that it's actually become extremely cold now. The original dispersed development strategy ended up with a shortfall, something like two thousand dwellings, compared to the sites which had been agreed between the various authorities at the time, it's also worth noting that that was based on a dwelling target of nine thousand one hundred for Greater York, I think that's correct, over the period since actual sites which have been agreed between the authorities since then have clearly increased, so as you've seen in my appendix eight the residual requirement has now been reduced to a a level of nine hundred and forty seven. The eighty nine strategy was actually supported by four of the authorities including the County Council, but clearly, and I fully appreciate why that decision was made two districts particularly, Ryedale and Selby, felt unable to support the strategy. The City Council, faced with the view that er there was two thousand shortfall in dwellings, that clearly two of our most important neighbours in terms of their land area were unhappy with that proposal, agreed to er proceed to pursue the issue of the new settlement. In that interim period of that work the draft P P G three came out, and made it quite clear that the new settlement would have to lie without beyond the outer edge of the greenbelt, and that was a fur a further consideration. Since that time clearly we've also had a series of further er indications development government guidance on the issue, new P P G one, three, and twelve all produced in March ninety two, which made it quite clear the environmental considerations were to be given greater attention in development plans. P P G three, the revised P P G three when it came out clearly, in my opinion changes the emphasis from the draft P P G three from the draft P P G three, paragraphs thirty two and thirty three which I would emphasize should to be read together, clearly indicates that new settlements are as someone said this morning, sorry, earlier in the discussion today, an issue of last resort. This has further emphasized to ourselves with, I accept our reading of the draft of P P G thirteen, and also more work we've been doing on land in the city, and on the potential traffic implications in particular of further growth outside the ring road. All of those factors lead the City Council to the view that the current level of residual given emerging government advice, the City Council could no longer support the idea of a new settlement of something like fourteen hundred dwellings set in the countryside beyond the outer edge of the York greenbelt. It's interesting to note that actually now we've since made that decision the residual has as I've said come down to nine four seven, so if we do have a new settlement of fourteen hundred we're already ending up with a a higher level of proposed development for Greater York now, the nine seven would obviously be exceeded if we had a fourteen hundred new settlement within Greater York. The further out from York the new settlement goes the less self contained it will be, the more the tendency will be for travel into the city, which is the main service centre to be car based. The belief of the City Council is that, notwithstanding there are clearly difficult traffic problems in the city, there is more opportunity to encourage people to use other more environmentally friendly modes of travel by locating development in and on the edge of the main urban area, a view that's supported by P P G thirteen and the research document onto planning, transport and planning emis planning and transport emissions on which it was based. It's for those reasons, sir, that the City Council feels that it can no longer support the proposed proposals for new settlement, just to come to your question about the issue of scale, I am not able to define what er small is in P P G three, it's obviously been left deliberately vague, but I would draw your attention to the Ucwetec T P A study I've just referred to which makes it quite clear in their terms that to be self contained in transport terms the nearest any settlement ne really needs to be in excess of twenty thousand people. Now I could not countenance, and I'm sure none of the authorities around us could countenance a new settlement that scale in Greater York. If you compare a fourteen hundred new settlement, three thousand people with the new settlements around York, as you've seen in our papers, and some of the papers circulating, it's very similar in size to many of the expanded villages around York, which are all, virtually without exception, commuter settlements for the urban area, so the inevitable consequence of that size of new settlement, in my opinion, be it fourteen hundred, be it two thousand five hundred dwellings, it will be primarily a large housing estate set in the open countryside. On that basis the City Council is doesn't feel able to support to support that proposal. Thank you. Can we have the County Council's response to that? Mr Davis, do you want to make any comment on that? Er yes I do, erm Before I return to other people. I really don't want to hog the debate because I know there are other No it's alright, alright . But certainly one, three things I'd like to respond to erm erm mm Mr Curtis. First of all erm he justified his view on environmental considerations as as considered by the City Council, I think we would say, the County Council, that one of the main considerations that has brought us to the conclusion that we have are environmental considerations, the environment of York and its immeding immediate surroundings, the protection er of the York greenbelt, environmental considerations have been er at the most er in our minds. But if I may interrupt, how do you cope with the argument that Mr Curtis was making that if your settlement is, say, less than two and a half thousand it is no more than a large housing estate which relies on the centre of York for its functions, of service, shopping, entertainment, and therefore that the difference between that the difference between a new settlement beyond the greenbelt and peripheral development, in those terms, is no different. Well Mr Curtis of course is erm is what I would describe as using inflammatory descriptions to try and do down what's going to happen with a a new settlement, erm he seems to be convinced that what we're going to end up with er in Greater York is a development of the sort of er er character that he has described, it would be the clear intention of the local authorities to ensure that an appropriate self contained community erm er is developed, now erm there is no re Is that really feasible at that level? Can, sorry, can I I don't want to stray into item matter B . Mm, mm. if we can at this stage I just want to get the concept of Yes, yes. of the thing clear. Is it really feasible that at the sort of level that's being talked about, be it your level or the level being put forward by some of the objectors to the structure plan, the new settlement could actually hope to provide a good level of comparison shopping, for example? Well can we make it absolutely clear that no settlement, anywhere, er in North Yorkshire, or in York and Humberside probably is self contained. If you want to en try and ensure that you're going to have a self sustained community, one hundred percent, you make sure that presumably you've got a show case cinema with fifteen screens there, er a B and Q, erm a whole range of of facilities that nobody ever needs leave, erm erm erm er that new settlement, the reality of the real world of course is that all settlements to a greater or lesser degree, er have a relationship with other er larger scale settlements, now then let's look at the new settlement, fourteen hundred dwellings, we estimate that that is going to be of the order of around three thousand three hundred people, now that is sizeable, it is not small, it is larger than a number of the small market towns er in North Yorkshire, like Boroughbridge, Settle, it is a significant development erm erm and within it erm there will be a requirement er be a requirement for a a a primary school, it justifies that. Certainly we cannot provide a fully one hundred percent sustainable community, you'd be talking about some vast city to move towards that, erm the re the real world is that the the hierarchy of settlements, erm all settlements, have greater or lesser degree of facilities depending on their size, and there'll be no difference er to the new settlement, and I think to to run an argument on the basis of Mr Curtis er has run it is unfair to the concept of the new settlement. Thank you Mr Davis, I, I Well there were two other points Chairman. Yes go on. Erm, the the reference of last resort was Mr Thomas's reference erm it it is not a reference which I think you find anywhere er in government guidance, and I think what P P G thre three says is the opportunity to to pursue them will be relatively rare, we think this is a relatively rare circumstance, er in North Yorkshire, it's unique, er and it's entirely driven er by justifiable er reasons to protect the the wider environment of Greater York. The third thing, and I gu would have to say it's a bit of a red herring thrown out by Mr Curtis is the issue of traffic growth con concern on traffic growth. Could I say to you that in terms of Greater York the County Council is the highway authority, the County Surveyor advises the County Council on traffic implications as a concept, the County Councillors highway authority is satisfied with the merits er of a new settlement. I won't go any further, because I know there are other flags up rou round the room, Chairman. Ca can I say, I'm attempting to stick with two A er, I think I'll take Mr Grantham, and then we'll adjourn for lunch. But would you gentlemen who have flagged that you want to speak leave those flags up? Alright? Mr Grantham. Er, er, John Grantham, C P R E. Er, sir, at the risk of straying slightly into into two B, you, do forgive me in advance, but you raised the specific point about size, and and erm there was er one or two statements that there isn't a a clear view on size in P P G three, I think it's important to to bear in mind the interrelationship between all P P G s and as Mr Curtis said, the research that that backs them up, and I I I point you to three quotes in the statement that C P R E have put in, erm i i i paragraph four point one seven,an and s the quote that attaches to that is taken from the research that erm er backs up draft revised P P G thirteen, transport, and erm I shall quote from that on this question of size,i it is also evident that smaller settlements, those with populations of less than fifty thousand, but particularly very small settlements are characteristically less transport emissions efficient than larger settlements, I think the the erm essence of of that particular piece of research is not as Mr Davis was implying to achieve totally self contained settlements, I don't believe such a concept exists, it's actually erm a planning land use in the long term to reduce C O two emi emissions something that is essential now to government policy, I think perhaps more instructive though is is the quote that I've in included in paragraph four point one nine and that's taken from er er this book here which I perhaps should submit the whole chapter in evidence to to the panel, I've only just included one quote, it's it's I suggest one of the more interesting reads that you may have as a result of this panel, it's by Colin Ward, and it's called New Town, Home Town, it's undertaken by er, sorry includes some of the work that's been undertaken by the University of Reading, erm and er David Lock Associates, on erm er new town research, and this this is due to be published by H M S O shortly, it's unfortunate that it wasn't available in time for this E I P, but I think erm, if you'll bear with me, I will read out the quote that I put in four point one nine, because I feel that it is useful on this question of of size, we concluded that if you are interested in environmental impact, energy conser consumption, and sustainability, new settlements have to reach a certain size to be worthwhile, it's parallel to the old arguments that used to take place around self containment in new towns, we found that new settlements of much less than five thousand houses, that's about fourteen thousand people are not really worthwhile because if they are smaller than that you are simply putting a housing estate in the countryside, a phrase that that has already been put round this morning, it appears that the best minimum for a new settlement, the best minimum, is about ten thousand houses, that's that's twenty five thousand people, which as it happens is about the size of the original garden cities. Starting from the logic of sustainability, we end up with a very similar size for a new community to the one that Howard was writing about a hundred years ago. I erm think that that is quite useful research that has been undertaken for government, and it it has been carried through, er as I'm sure everybody is aware, into the U K strategy for sustainable development, the consultation period of which is just concluding, erm I won't take you any more of the panel's time to read that quote as it's written in my in my statement. Yes, I I we have read it, we have read it. Er obviously, I mean the new towns movement as conceived immediately after the war was geared to meeting London housing needs, you know, we're not comparing like with like, but I think, I take the point that you are making in terms of er sustainability. Mr Spittle Mr Spittle. to say something. Malcolm Spittle, County Councillor. I was very interested to read this quote from David Lock, erm of David Lock associates, and I just wonder how it squares from the fact that er Mr Lock associates submitted an objection to H two on the grounds they wanted a settlement of eighteen hundred dwellings to the North of York. Erm, it does seem to be something of a contradiction in terms there, and in fact Mr Lock isn't here today because his clients have subsequently withdrawn from the er E I P but er it would have been interesting to have asked him the question. On that note, I think you should you should go and refresh yourselves. Can we, can we reconvene at two o'clock, please. winding? Aha. And what do you do in winding? It's hard to ex oh it's, it's winding , it's hard to explain the machines, do you not get round and about No. to see them? We haven't been round yet so You'd really need to see them to I mean I couldn't explain it to you really. Mhm. Mhm. They're automatic now you know, Mhm. well we put the wool on and that but Mhm. it winds automatic. Yeah. And cuts off. You really need to see them to Aye, so how long have you been in here? Oh since this firm took over, well it was not B M K you know but it was taken over by the Mhm. the new man and that. Mhm. But I've been in there since the beginning. Mhm, and has it changed a lot do you think? No, not really, no. Not really? No. The job changed, the machinery's changed? No, just the same machine we had over on the other side, aye, it hasn't changed at all. Mhm. Erm I was going to ask you? Er how did you get the job at first? Was it somebody that you knew that worked in here? No, not really. That was a case, I worked in a hotel for years and years and it closed down with the new bypass and that, and just a girl beside me, she was coming for an interview, to the B M K and I came with her. Mhm. I'd have never been in. Mhm, and when was that? Oh er sixteen year, Mhm. aye, it's about sixteen year. You've been here all that time? Mhm. In the same job? Mhm, mhm. Do you enjoy it? Oh yes, aha. Do you have a lot of friends working in here? Ah well, work friends, aye, Mhm. oh aye, they're all quite friendly . And do you keep up with them after your work? No, not really, no. Not really? No. No. I'm not really some of them do, the younger ones and that a bit. Mhm. Not really. What's the kind of age of folk in your section? Well I'm the oldest. Er, fulltime, I mean the students here they don't count really. Who's the youngest? Oh it must be thirtyish. I think Caroline's about the youngest. Mhm. Aye, she must be. What else have I got here? Oh, do you have any nicknames for each other? No, not re no. No? No we don't, No. honestly. No. Not ones that you talk about anyway. No no, I'm being honest, no. Aha. No. I don't know about younger ones and that but no Aha, honest to God. Mhm. No nicknames. Mhm. I don't know what they say maybe behind your back or that but honestly I don't think, no there's nobody really got a nickname in here. Aha. Mhm, have you any worked, worked in any other factories in town? No never, no. Just this one? Mhm. Mhm. I'm not from the town. Mhm. Where is it you're from? Oh right so you have to travel in? Mhm. On the bus? Aha. Mhm er there's something else I was going to ask you but . Oh aha, within the sections is there, is there some sections you think that feel they're better than other sections because they've got like maybe more pay or they feel they've special? Oh aye, oh aye, aye, we feel that. And who's that do you think? Any department. Every department thinks they're better than the next one. Oh better? No no, oh well aye but you'll find out for yourself. No wages and that I mean it does vary from section Aha. to section. Aha. And we feel we've the heaviest , not the biggest wage, kind of thing, you ken. Aha. But I suppose there are other jobs have more responsible in that so Aha. this is what happens. Mhm, do you wear like different, can you tell by what the person's wearing, like do you wear different pinnies for different jobs? No no, wear your overalls, just wear your own. You cannot tell, aha. Mhm. And is it quite regular hours or do you work all over the time? We work shifts. Shifts you work, aha. Just the winding that works the shifts. And what hours is that? Two till se , that's six to two, two to ten, and ten to six. Mhm. But that, we're the only one that do the shifts. And how do you find that? I like the more. You'd rather have the You get used to them. Mhm. time? Oh the night shift's no bother. I don't like the back shifts. Do you think the place has changed much since the takeover? I don't think it's changed at all really. No. Mm. No. No. Er are you in a union? Aha. Mhm but it's not What for I don't know. Just for more money that's all. Aha. It's not recognized anyway. Mhm, what one is it? Carpet Union. Carpet Union. Mhm. And it's not, not everybody's in a union? No not everybody's in it, no. I suppose the ones that came from the old factory, you know were kept on and that Mhm, mhm. but new . So how many folk are working in your section? Winders there's er five fourteen winders. Fourteen. Aha. Was there any more er when you started working here? There was only two when we started here. Only two? Me and another girl. That was all, you know when it was transferred there was only the two of us. Aha. And then they sent back for the you know the, the ones that had been there before. But that worker she left, she got oh she wasn't married but she had a family. Mhm. And do you get any perks, like cheaper carpets or anything? You're joking. We get them cheaper outside. anything? No? Right that's, that's all we wanted to know. you got the name for Quickly! New what? New roundabout here so it's Yes. almost the now in operation. They could dig near, in the row below isn't it? Yeah. Oh cos they've gotta be housing dow all through there haven't they to Yes. Altering the whole layout aren't they? Can't remember what was there now actually, some of the houses I can't, either! they've pulled down ! Try that chemist shop at Kinson. What love? I'll try that chemist at Kinson on the way through to Sarah's to see whether they've got that er cod liver oil. Well I like to get the Sanatogen brand, if I can, rather than the Well you'll have to Seven Seas the one. Cos when they cos it's Well it's a better value bottle as well. Yeah. Are we going to a going to John's er, in afternoon tomorrow? Oh I'd expect so, yes. I'd expect that's that's their plan. Or they may be coming to us, I don't know. Perhaps they may come to us if they're going over to see Blanche and Tracey. Yeah. So it's thirty mile an hour all the way down to there now! Yes! They've extended the the wo haven't they? Ha. A nice load of logs on the back of that for somebody's fire isn't there? Lovely! I'd like to go to the logs. Yes. They're lovely! Well A few cars about in the car park! Yep. Do you always get this here? Well I don't get down to . There we are! I shouldn't be a minute! I'll stay here. Okay. Excuse me. Can I help you please? Six pound of granary flour please? Okay. This bag is for the granary George. No. One six five please? Had a change round? Yeah. Oh! Is that to fool the staff or fool the customers? Both, I think. Both is it? Er er er Twenty one ninety two please? One I've got the two anyway, fifty, sixty eighty, eighty five That's it! Exactly. Exactly, isn't it? That's a miracle! Cleaned me out! You worked that out didn't you? I know, I hadn't. No I hadn't! Cleaned me out completely, there are. That's what we're like! Cheerio! Okay then. Bye! Bye bye! That didn't take long. Did you take some? Ye of course! You did? Yes! Yes! Yes. Did they know? No. Two chaps just walked down through there oh I suppose they were upper fortyish they could have been older Yeah. I would I would suspect that they were identical twins. Really? Yeah. Absolutely the spitting images of each other! Oh. Even to the sort of baldness in their heads ! Yeah. You have to excuse me being gruff. Being gruff? Why? I don't feel very well. You don't feel very well? Oh well, perhaps when we come back from Sarah's have a bit of a rest. Yes but it's too late th then. Too late , yes. It's too, because it's Well too late in the evening. Yeah. That's true. Well at least put your feet up anyway. Used to be o on this road, I'm coming down through here. Yes. When Quite funny in the shop, erm it came to one pound ninety two which is the usual price Yeah. and it was exact amount of coins I had in my pocket! Good Lord! I'm very ha happy that we're going to Sarah's because quite honestly I go I've gotta get out of that ca house! Yes. The more I can do it, the be the more I we the ha ha ha ha the happier I'll be. Yes. Blimey, that's a bit restrictive then. Pardon? Bit ti er it's a bit restrictive at the moment to er, without transport isn't it? Yeah. Whoops! Notice up there says, mini recycling centre, does that mean those on little bikes go for a re-training does it? Who's that? That notice back there, mini recycling centre. Ah, I guess it's to do with cans and bottles and things, actually but I used to walk down here to the Oh ah to the market wasn't it? to the market. That's a long while ago. Christ, what's this shop in there? A furniture shop of some sort there where the used to be the Spar shop I think, many years ago wasn't it like a haven't been there for, probably about since, Morris 's day you see, and that service station. They've knocked it, flattened it down and rebuilt it by the looks of it. It seems ages since we've driven down this road. I haven't been here for ages and ages! No! Normally use the bypass when we come out at the Er er er There, where are you in? I'm on the wrong road aren't I? I don't know! Yes I am. Don't want to go to Ringwood or Woodchester do we? Not really. Can't get there, this road has taken us out of our way hasn't it? We'll have to do a little pas de deux here and turn the car around. The number of times I come off this roundabout onto the wrong road, it's It's alwa it's always the same isn't it? It's just one of my habits I think. We want the Hampreston Road. Noel Gardens, that's the gardens of the people who ran The Early Bird Gardens run now isn't it? Sorry darling? Noel Gardens up there, that's the gardens that the people who used to the run The Early Bird Garden. Oh! Maybe they run both, I'm not sure. Which way do we ge , come out of this? Near there and go up to the Hurn Airport Road Mm. from here but turn down at West Parley, take the right hand turn instead of going on to the airport Oh I see. and then go sa sa straight on down that road as it takes us down onto Castle Lane to then turn off for Sarah's. You know what? What? I feel sick. Oh! Why? I don't know, but it's horrible! Graeme, it's horrible! Yes! What's the cause of that? Very much like it was on the, the aeroplane. The aeroplane, yes. Do they use this golf course do you know? It's well laid out now isn't it? It's lovely isn't it? Yeah. Very nice! This reminds me of bringing i , coming up to Debbie's. Ah! Oh! Policeman having a little word with a sa , motorcyclist down here by the looks of it! Where? On the corner. Oh yeah. Was there an accident? I dunno. This is an ambulance here An ambulance. so it must be an accident! Looks like it doesn't it? I feel sick! Yes. That's not very It's terrible! pleasant, all the Just like on the aeroplane. Oh! And slow traffic lights to stop. I can't have the, some of the ? Well have this then. Oh yeah , No! Got through it this time. I ca don't think I've been down here before have I? Yes. Have I? Yes. It's the road from Rin er from er Ferndown. You'll know where you are in a minute. I know where we are. That's right. I think there's a footpath to walk on but you can walk the other side of the road, will that do it? Go round to the Pardon? Go round to the shopping centre. Cos we're a bit early so I'll go and see if there's a chemist shop there to get that Okay. stuff for the Cos it's just half past three now and we're er said we'd be there at four . Do you have erm, any money on you? Yes. Will you get some sa , flowers for Sarah? Some flowers? Yeah. Yes, okay. Hello. Hello. Wait. Alright? Hello, hello, hello! What is this carpentring? Ah yes! Well he Well cer I I mean I if you can Nice! call it that! What are you doing? Oh th The cat flap, er cat flap! Er this blocks in Oh! but the hole's too small. Oh dear! Oh yeah. And it was a completely different fitting to the other one so I was gonna get one the same as the old one Ooh I've got some flowers!! And it didn't so it made it easy. But Want to sit down? you know. Yeah. Oh alright. It was a bit different as it turned out. Let her box if she wants to box, Yeah. So Oh yeah! Hiya! And I, I was just coming How are you? to finish. How's you? I'm alright. And you? Thank you ever so much for the flowers? Sorry? The flowers. You're welcome. You're welcome. Seen outside? All brand newly painted, all the wood ou outside? Well I see the What? I see the door's repainted. I noticed And varnished! that. Varnished! Yes. It all looked nice before I started! Doors reso , yeah they did actually. But the whole of the outside has been painted. Yes, over the white work. Yep! I will go and have a look. No, I was too interested in what was happening at the door. Excuse me, while I go out and have a look at what happening outside. All the doors sto oh yes! Is this this chap who But fortunately Yes. Was this painted by this chap you got hold of or Yeah. He charged hundred and ninety five quid for the whole house, beams and windows, replacement That's very good! windows Do you think he'll do mine for that? No. I wouldn't take it anyway. I thought it was quite cheap. I think it's very good, a hundred and nin Oh it's very nice to help us a hundred and ninety five pound, if I could get mine done for five hundred I'd be laughing! Well he to do it because he very nearly Yeah. You'll have to excuse it being a bit cold cos we're walking around with all windows Well yes! are open. Doesn't matter anyway. Do you want to have a cup of coffee? Well yes, yes. I'm afraid. Oh yes, yes, oh we know. What a, no, no! You okay for a minute mum? Yep. We've nearly finished this. Oh we are looking posh aren't we! Oh yes of course! Graeme? Yes? Hang on to me. I think they're steep compared to ours. Yep. Do you need some help love? You'll have to excuse the washing. Oh I almost went down another step that wasn't there! I have been able to do the washing cos I haven't been able Hello lazy! to dry any. Oh that's lovely! Here's lazy bones! I haven't been able to dry the washing cos we haven't out the Oh! windows. That's alright. This is lovely! Oh it looks good doesn't it! Yes! Considering there's no yet. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's very good! Oh that's a good colour! That's a good colour of it. Nice and bright isn't it? Yeah! Absolutely! It's lovely!is lovely! I'll get the Very bright! I must show you this blind. I cannot get down there. And I have to sh make an Austrian blind. I can't get down! Come on. Making an Austrian blind for us at the moment. Aha. Keep it the colour of downstairs. Perhaps I shall be making those, so if I Should the colour in here oh lovely! same as that colour. Yes! They're lovely! So Aren't they nice! Mm! And this is the Austrian blind, and I've got They're lovely those! Mm! I've got grandma's old sewing machine which was like ours, but it worked Yeah. and now that doesn't work so Oh no! I've gotta change Well I keep meaning to ring up. Well we've got to, to have ours done. There's somebody that advertises, I think it's either in the Wimborne or the Advertiser Alma was going to get hers fixed and for the price it was gonna cost to get it fixed she, cos there's not anything really Yeah. wrong with it, it's worth buying a new one. Yeah. And what I was going to be getting for myself at some stage cos I'd like to do the rest of the curtains myself. A new one? Now I've started to think that I I am capable of it. Oh yes! Yes! Yes! Alright. I'll buy one for myself, but I don't want anything that's like, mega-expensive or highly intri No. intricate, I just want the No. to make Yeah. a stitch, I don't need Yeah. anything else. Right. There is a chap advertising, I'm sure it's the Advertiser rath or the Wimborne Journal who Mm. er, obviously freelances from home mend Yeah. yo sewing machines, any make so But you like our dado rail and everything? Yes! You've done a good job there! Looks nice dunnit? I love It looks this colour! I fell in love with it on the wall! Yeah, it's a lovely colour! It's very bright in here as well. If you've got the Anaglypta, it looked nice just white but we thought, no! Oh! It's painted on is it? Yep! Painted over it. Yeah. Looks good! But it like, doubled the work but it looks Yeah. alright. No, it's The other thing is is that if we, if it does get we can just get the paint out and Ya. go back over it. So Oh, it's, it's looks very good indeed! Looks totally different doesn't it? Absolutely! Yes! It's much nicer. Yes. My ducks collect, I bought those Well especially. Well, there you are you see, everything is there! Just want to get like Yo er a corner, corner now. You better , you better mind out Felix cos I'll paint you to match! I don't think that's Felix, that's Charlie. Is it, it's Charlie is it? Yeah, so er we want to get like a corner Yes it is Charlie laundry cupboard like just with, with a a wood one,whi whi white wood one. So if we have cupboard to go on there. Oh this one er , yeah there's your bobbin there. Ooh! And then it'll now be finished. You should be able to white on little furniture. Yes. I don't , as I say I don't want anything too big, but should be able to get one Yeah. for about seventy pounds, even the new ones that go, that just goes forwards and backwards, that's all I want it to do. Well that desk will fit in there. Yeah. When you, when you come to collect it. What you What we're going to do is, we're going to get Tony's first before we bring anything else in here. Oh! So you're gonna leave me with the dear stool then are you? No ! Charming you are! You've gotta have a lot more room than us ! I'm afraid , no I haven't I want to put a table in there! Well we'll move the stool. You wanna do it with what? That's alright. I was just saying to Saying what? Sarah that where that little desk she used as a dressing table, as I said, the desk in our will fit in there nicely, she says but I'm leaving that till we Tea or coffee ? redecorate the room and then I'll then I'll bring it over cos you've got more than we have. Erm,te tea please? Dad? Tea? Er , yes that'll do me fine thanks Sarah. Are you getting more work? Yeah, I'm That's good for you! Bu but half off and half in at in moment cos I've taken the time off but there's lots of problems, like half the team's gone off sick with pleurisy, tonsillitis and everything else! Oh dear! So I'm like half in and out just doing the things that I'd like planned to do, like go to dentist and things like Yeah. that. So That's the only reason I'm actually going ! To the dentist, yeah. I said Antony, have you ever been to see Jonathan about the photographs? No he you know I did it wrong that time? Mm mm, no, no I don't recall that. Well yeah, I did tell you Oh well you prob well that's why I'm on . Ah! Ah! No I don't recall that. Tied up at the end and Yes. they want somebody to go down so we could have but a bit but, mum cos he said well you'll have to wait a while! Ooh you are awful! I says, ooh ooh! Gary, I I am sorry! You're terrible! Well I'm sure I know. that he's wanted to know whether to destroy the negatives and things does he, yes? Well the thing is he wants me to get them done. Yeah, I Yeah. we've gotta get it done. It's like try and sit down and work out That's right! We've got yours, we haven't got anybody else's of what they actually want! Well they can't afford it now with the new poll ta , er or the cou , no the poll tax isn't it, the next one? Antony do you want a cup of tea? Yes. Graeme, I've got some, my that Yes. one again. Well I just Well I'm thinking of having them just take some of the pressure off. It's probably th they've left it on your skin. And that doesn't feel tight, it's probably over the day it's just pulling it isn't it? Hello red dog! What are you doing here? Oh that's Cha that's Charlie trying to sneak up on me was it? I do you know, I I thought it was er, Felix but No it's Charlie. Actually they're very much alike aren't they? Yeah. Oh but you know, in a way. Yeah, see the paws The paws. By the way Paws, yeah. bu , but the only other thing is Charlie's still got very much like kinky fur. Yes. The fur is very Yes. and soft. Felix is the same, but very soft. Come play with me. Sit down Graeme, I can't see! Oh I'm sorry! Do you know where the pliers are Sarah? Sorry? Do you know where the pliers are? No. Upstairs? No,you put them hidden in the Oh! Well, we're going to try and get the bedroom done now! Yes! Oh when? Then to the bathroom. Ha, ha! Don't, mind your back. Actually I think the, the bathroom looks, look really nice! It's totally different. It's super! Yeah, we've finished the bathroom. Yeah. Yeah, it's very good! Well the thing is, I mean it's like buying it as you're going ahead and just totally re-tiling it and going round. Yeah. I mean, the Anaglypta we're painting looks lovely, but as I say you can re-paint it as it goes Yeah. That's right. And then we're going to make a bi a little bit extra. I mean, it's lovely! Well it's the same as our place,a that paper is as far as I can see is jet black underneath! Oh! Which ones? The paper in our lounge and in the hall, and tha where you put that piece to cover it up, it's all black under there where it's wearing on the corners of the wall where you go round and kno it looks black, so I'm sure it's black underneath and you just Where? Th the the the paper through our house it is actually is black paper and you paint on it. The cur Really? Yes! You've got wood chip haven't you, in some places? It's Anaglypta, yes. Yes. Well it's, in the bedroom we're gonna paper it, Anaglypta and paint. Yeah. Because, what? Something, we don't wanna pa paint the walls cos there's so many like bits that are wrong with the walls but we want if we Anaglypta it, it wo Yeah. it won't show them up. You're only going out again, you won't want your ! Sorry? No, I'm talking to the cat. Oh oh! Oh you were talking to the cat? Oh! No , I'm not calling you a But, no. Erm but once you're , erm we do really it's trying to wallpaper that'll go with our bedspread, er without Yeah. being too patterned. Yeah. Can't really have it too patterned up there. No. If we really couldn't find anything for that, so what we'll like, we're gonna paint it,Anagly An Anaglypta it again Yes. then paint it a colour. And do it tha that way round. I think it really looks nice upstairs! Yeah. And the it's outside! Yep! When is he coming? Mm? When's He's he coming? No, we've had the outside He's done it! painted! Oh you've done it? Yes. That's what I went out to look at. Oh I see! Mhm. Had the whole lot done, he said it'd take about two and half Oh lovely! days Yeah. and That's what I said, a hundred and ninety pound, I said if you could do my house for that I'd be laughing! I think it's marvellous! But it's, well considering he had to re-putty all the windows, it wasn't just like he had to one I think that is very good! he had to Yeah. literally Yeah. smooth them all Well my down and go off to . Mine have got to be re-puttied as well, in places, quite a bit . Mm. So yeah, he was very good! Seemed very good Very good apparently round here! These are now having theirs done but he's done quite a number of them in this area. Yes. Good business for him I suppose. . But then we're going to do the er garden. The Yep. and get that done.. Well I've had the mower serviced. Yeah? It looks, it's come back looking like a brand new mower ! A ne ne ne new one. No, very good. No they've really cleaned it up, it looks beautiful! Good! Well it's never been serviced since the day we bought it and that must be a good ten years ago. Mm! Did you have the blades sharpened and that? Yes. Well I put new blades on actually Really, really good! er and that was one of the problems, I couldn't tighten them, I didn't have Yeah. the right equipment because, they're awkward to put on because the nuts are on the top of the on the top of the blade. Yeah. So you gotta get away and underneath and I haven't got the rer rer the socket spanners that would do it, so well I haven't got a spanner let alone a socket ones that would do it! And er Do you want a bit of lemon juice in your drink? Yes please love. Father. Yeah. So, I told them that it had new blades on but they wanted it really tight, and they wanted tightening up and that so yeah. I saved them and I put them car engine oil in ! Which was partly the reason why I wanted it serviced, it There's yours then. , moved up the car is it over? It's okay. But George Yeah, I thought it was very good with this erm the thirty six for the servicing plus your part that they That's better! I had my er, serviced yesterday. That wasn't thirty six pounds, I bet? Er, no, hundred and twenty for Ye Yes. But actually, I paid cash and it No. had everything done, it had brakes, had the lot. Whole lot! Wish I could get mine done for that! Well it's a mechanic that we use Oh. and er just did Oh! me a favour. Running. Whe then again is yo could I go to Southampton and Mm. and back in it ? Well exactly! I expect my car to be Of course it does! Oh well! Cos I'm doing about what, about three hundred fi three hundred fifty miles a week just going to work and back Oh that is what, fifteen thousand fifteen to twenty thousand a year isn't it? You do almost twenty thousand miles a year! Yeah. I know. Bits. Picks up all No. the mess now in one go. That's not bad actually Sarah, cos I mean when I come home for lunch at It is when you when I come home for lunch er, and things like that I clock up about two hundred and twenty, to two thirty, two fifty maybe a week just I do forty miles a day doing that! going to work and back. Yeah. Yeah but Sarah doesn't use a car much er Oh no. most of the time. No that's right. Do on the odd occasion but Yeah. no you just use it for that and I'm not going anywhere else No. cos once I'm parked, I'm parked. Well yeah. No I mean but there might be an earlier promotion now. Oh really? Wha what this is in the management side? Oh yeah, er well be a different one to that to start with but it'll be earlier. What's actually happened is, first of all Tracey's leaving, she's been promoted to Area Telesales Manager for Talking Pages so she's going up to Slough and Michelle will be going for that position, and one other girl and the two others that are on management development, one is now leaving cos she's like, burnt out, she doesn't want to do it any more and the other one's going into the field so it's literally just me and this other girl and Michelle, but I'm obviously just starting, but next time around it'll just be me again Di , and Dianna is good at her work Mm. but she jus just hasn't got a personality ! Yeah. Erm, she's a very aggressive person! Oh right. And manner Oh yeah. not, not even like in the right situation, she's like just aggressive all the time and nobody particularly gets on with her or likes her because of this. And, they do say that they don't feel that unless she changed her personality Mm. she probably wouldn't become a manager, because usually you think you can change and develop but I think she'll be then be able to become a manager and she'll sort of learn,but she'd have to actually change her personality for it. Would she have to change her personality or not? Shut up ! But, er, so hopefully Michelle will get this next Tracey's position, and obviously sort of in in the meantime and providing her position comes up they are bringing in a Telesales County Secretary, which wasn't gonna come in for about a year cos they wanted to sort of like, trial it, but now they've decided if that's what they want the position to do erm it'll probably happen in the next two months and they said for me to go for it from our division, so I said right, okay. Oh she won't like that ! That'll be in Southend, will it still? Mm. Good! Well it's actually just basically the team it's a new position that they've actually made within each team now, within each division which is like, you're dealing with higher accounts but a different type of account as well. Oh, jolly good! Oh very good! So Very good! It's all looking good! Sarah? Sorry! Ca can I have some sugar? Do you want sugar? Yes please. Do you normally usually have sugar! She has since Yes, in these. she's been in the hospital. , bad habit! In fact, I bought I know! I found in that chemist shop when I was looking there er, refill Nutrene. What made you start on sugar again? So those Well I I like it. so she'll be able to refill all those two Nutrene packs, what Yeah. you said, it was one in your purse to take with you and the one at, the bigger one at home. Oh erm and all Thank you. that. Lovely! Yeah, that's at home. It's a sweetener. Well I can't tell the difference. No. No, I like it. Well you used to. Mm! I love it! How's it going? Especially with Well co a cup of coffee it's going well. Well we got the bill from Mr Yeah. for Ah! Yes! for your mother's treatment at the hospital six hundred and sixty pound! Is that all? Tha that is the Well he's the arthritis man just the arthri Oh for the arthritis? The arthritis man, yes! We haven't got I was gonna say, for the other one But we haven't got his yet. That's gotta be more than that, cos that's basically what my fares cost. Well his'll be a thousand pound for the operation, being a major operation, it will be the fact that it's skull. It'll be very, very expensive. Well when I had my boob done including consultation, his was about seven hundred pound. Mm. I had my face done, and oh God, it was about five hundred pounds! Well Mr was over a thousand pound for the gall bladder operation Yeah. but I never er even knew,that one. but he won't get that now for it because they've graded them, so that if it's, it's keyhole surgery type now it's er, it's a lower figure than Because, you're not actually opening them up. That's right. Yeah. Oh! So that was the embarrassment I had to do when we went and saw er, Mr erm I had to say to him, you charge BUPA rates do you? And, he said yes I do and waved the leaflet at me, he says I know all about that but but you've got to now otherwise you you Mm! could find yourself let in for two or three hundred pound because Yeah. BUPA won't pay it. Well shall we go in the dining room? Did you know how much I'd lost? Mm? Eight pounds. Did you? Well a bit more than eight pounds actually, it was over eight pound over half a stone. Well not only have you got a bit missing, you hadn't had anything to eat for ages did you? No, I didn't have anything for five days! Five days on a fluid diet wasn't it? Mm! Most of which was water as well. Well I don't eat mu very much now do I? Well no, you don't. You miss a lot of your meals though. Yep. I measured the scar on your mum's tum last night, it's six and half inches without allowing for the the wrin you know the wrinkles of the stomach, so I should think it's a good seven inches. Eh? Ya. Big one! And I'm going to ask Mr when I see him that if he Graeme you can't! I, course I will! Oh honestly he's so nice! I wish you wouldn't ask him that! If he trained at Saint Swithin's! Honestly! Well you remember the film with Ru James Mm. says er, where the chap put a tentative mark on the stomach and he That's Doctor at Large, and Doctor at Sma , at Small isn't it? I remember that. That's right. And he sa It was very good! he berated him for being Knife happy. Yeah. Oh yeah! He just went, choo! Sarah? Like this with the Well that's the problem I had with my boob wasn't it? Oh! The doctor started work the day I went in, and she pre-warned me and I said to him, no big cuts please? And she said to him, when I got out she said oh, was he knife happy? He usually is! I said, yes thanks! Oh dear! Watched an interesting programme the other night on Q E D er, it was to do with people who have hare lips and cleft palates Mm. where th the a apparently, you know, they put them right as se when you're very young now Mm. but they have found that in a lot of cases that the bones starts growing so therefore, when you're in your late teens, twenties, maturing your bottom jaw is growing out from the rest of your jaw bone. So they had this girl which they showed er, where they had to break all the bone up under here Mm. and rewire it and pull the who That's , oh that was on telly weren't it? Sorry? That was on telly yesterday. On Q E D. Yeah but but of course this chap has been doing this research in erm Bangladesh wasn't it, I think? But, you know, some of the cleft palates you saw and they were They were terrible! Oh! Pull yo co co well you can imagine why people hid themselves away. And this chap, I mean he was oh this, it was almost sickening to look at! Mm And this th th this three surgeons go out from here and they do all their research on the various and they operate from eight o'clock at night to eight in the morning, non-stop, using three theatres, each doing a forty five minutes one, and then another one takes Cos they can't eat properly with cleft palates anyway No. can they? No. No. And this chap in pen, and it showed them drawing on his lips when he was anaesthetized where you Mm. thought he'd cut and things like this and then they showed you the chap the next day and he was completely different! He he could walk down the street without people looking and staring at him. They're amazing! Terrible for them! They're awful! Amazing , what they can do now! But, but they're saying that, ooh apart from I think the what they're really saying is that it's better to wait till in You're older. you're older and do it then Mm. because as I say, At least it stops growing. Mm. Ha! Are you enjoying yourself there? Somebody's enjoying it! I haven't got a vice, but it ha Well if you've do , If I'd known I'd have bought you a, a clamp over for you to You got that clamp! Yeah. Yeah, oh well would help, yeah. It wouldn't really hold it tight enough. That should do nice, I've got one here. Cos I've got the ones that Budgie had like that. We were going to have Gertrude this afternoon. Mhm. No the other way round And look after her. We were gonna go there for tea. No they didn't! She asked if we'd go over there for tea this afternoon! I said no, we're going to Sarah's. Oh I thought we were going to Sarah's today. And then I said we were coming to Sarah's, so she sends you her love. Yes. I'll send it back. Say hello to her. Have they heard from Cara? I don't know. I Cara's Well she has done once. Cara's due back next month. Mm? Cara's due back next month. Yeah? Yes, I didn't realize that but she's got to come back fo for an exam or something wasn't it? Yeah Mm. if it's in er I didn't think she was coming back till July when the term finished, but she's coming back in I'm sure Gertrude said March. I think it is March. Cos she hasn't applied for a green card to work, cos there's point Oh hasn't she? because she's not gonna be there long enough to do it. Oh! It can take so long to get one as well! She'd be better looking for a job, and when she gets give a Yes. job, getting it then. Yeah. I think there's no difficulty over that, in the area they are, and the hospital they're at. What's he doing? Well he's at the sa , he's got the scholarship to this erm university doing advan an advance degree in what is it?wood isn't it? Mm. I don't know! Cos that's what he's into. He's into timbers isn't he? Is he? Mm. Mm. ? I've no idea! Well I should think They reckon that's . treatments and preservation of the rain forest and all this sort of thing, I imagine. Mm. Pardon? Now turn that. Well what did Yeah so he you have to do anyway? Well our letter box is broken Yeah. we decided to get a new one, and use the new numbers. Now that the were rather dark for it, so we wouldn't be able Oh I see! to see them. And er we went to get one, and measured it and it was right size this box but Mm. the other one, but even though it opens outwards, a bit comes in and a bit comes out and so he had to chip away at the Oh I see! door so that it was around to there. Have you been working since Well we got back, not very late Yeah. well, I did on Thursday. I came in yesterday cos I had to decorate it so that er get it tiled, and get it furnished and Yeah. everything like that. Monday I've got the dentist. Ah! Mm! I'm not looking forward to it cos I know Is that Mark? Yeah. I know I've got a hole in my Ah no! I'm not looking forward to it! You can go in there and smile can you now? Mm. Your your cleared the account? Yeah. Oh that's alright. Er, well I, well I've ha well I know, I know who's turn, oh shut up! Excuse me! We've got to go and have our teeth done. Yes I know. Mine aren't gonna be any problem at the moment are they? Antony hasn't been to the dentist for about six years! Antony has got a temporary cap on one of his teeth but he's had it about twice really. Yeah, if it's Good grief! only a temporary one. It was when I was about twelve I broke the front of my tooth so I I had a temporary cap put on, and it only lasted six months and came off! Oh dear! He put another one and it's been on since then! Good So Lord! twelve years? They're only supposed to be sort of six monthly caps. Good Lord! Well even a permanent cap probably wouldn't last that long under normal Oh yeah! circumstances. I've actually got very strong teeth, they Cos er, when Deborah got Deborah got married, remember when she got married the crown came off mine Mm. and I swallowed it ! Yeah. I don't, dislike going to the dentist but but I'm terrible with dentists, hairdressers, and all these things though I work quite hard, I never really sort of Your dentist is only round the corner from where you work though isn't it? Oh yes, I know! Go for a quick I can't find an appointment. end! Is it o Get off there! One of those little clips. Oh. Well there you are you see, he'd forgotten! Did you please take You going out tonight? No. No. Still haven't met your friend opposite, Laura. No? Met her father. He's dark haired, very dark Yes. Yes. Yes. Very, very, very dark Ye hair. Yeah, that's right. Very sort of like golliwoggy hair. Mm. He's the French one. Oh i Hello darling! Mm mm! Yes he wa ,wa over there the other lunchtime as we reversed out the drive. Spoke to us. I always remember him he was alright bu but hi his mum was very sort of quite lenient, and he was really strict. Really? Mm. Laura didn't erm leave home she bought a house with Mark about three two, three years before they got married. Oh, was that them? Yes! Yeah. She didn't move in until the day she got married. Really? She she stayed there weekends but I thought that was funny! he didn't mind that, but she wasn't allowed to No. actually live there Move in. full-time until she married him. I thought that was Good Lord! really funny! Then she was free Wasn't they to leave home. in in a flat? Yeah, but it was nothing like that. So er that's them. Oh well! Oh dear! Sarah, would you make another cup of tea please? Some in the pot. Oh would you pour it for me? Does anyone else want another one? No I'm fine thank you. I wouldn't mind another one if there is one, not to worry otherwise. I But Jim, the chap who lives next door to them came over the other night to collect a pound from me as my contribution to the er, sign on the lamppost saying that this is a watch neighbourhood watch area, now it's Mm. and he I said to him, I said you got new neighbours? And he said, yes he said er that place looks lo beautiful inside! Mm. I wish ours did! It will! Ours is terrible! Well a they, I mean they, as we say they mo , had everything done in the house before they moved in That's the ideal didn't they? if you were to get a place Yeah that's before you move in Well that's that's pretty good! Pretty good! Got any letters Sarah? No. Do you want to post something through here? You've been to Oh is it? Ta open the door and show us. No I want to post something through! Sorry? Stop! What? Right, we'll christen this. Let's have a look. Oh marvellous! Look at that! It came Well done! Well done! Yeah! Well done! Much better! Well that's doubled the value of the house for a start now! Of course! Yes! Oh you! Oh it's you! Oh hello! You little come here! Haven't you got a home? Does he still live at home? Yeah. Come here! Say hello Well he can't get in and out their place can he? No. Hello! Hello pussy! Hello pussy! Hello pussy! Had something to eat The very first day he was a bit worried so have you pussy? Have you pussy? gets a bit worried. Don't you Hello. Eh? Hello. You're such a soft cat aren't you? She knows you're soft then she bites you! There it goes! Well perhaps if you erm Sarah? Hold on! Ow! Ow! Ow! Hello! Ow! How's things? Fine. Just put some lemon Yep! please? Depends what it is really . Yeah I'd love to be able to Good Lord! take that. That's a lot isn't it? Actually their things Er sorry , Liz McColgan's just knocked ten seconds off the world record! Yeah! Good Lord! That's a lot Their , their telephone is much wo louder than ours. Yeah, but it's not the same as yours now. It's not? No, cos our one like yours is broken Oh! and put away for the But our , ours builds up, it starts soft, and then gets louder, and the longer you leave it the louder and louder it gets! We've got low and high anyway Yes. Yeah. on, on that. Yeah. I can't understand ours! Does your phone you have in the bedroom ring as well? Yes. Because we've got Yes. sound down on ours. Well I've turned the one in the bedroom off for the moment cos if in the daytime if your mum's up re resting Having a rest. and then it's not disturbing her although we've been using the bottom bedroom really. Although Colin, Colin rang last night, I didn't even know he'd been! No. Well if the phone's next to me you pick it up fairly quickly after it gives it's first beep don't you? So it's Yes. But I've as I say I've got memory banks in for your number and Gertrude's number and the three Oh yes. numbers that reach me when I'm not at home and Yeah. and things like that so, and Amber and Freda so all your mum has to do is press M R and the appropriate number. The one you want. Well that's all I have to do I think. The danger number is five. Yes. Cos that's Lyndsey! They'll be calling me pretty soon and getting me on th Is that a good to actually programme that one in then? I think quite Well I don't quite honestly it's very, ee, I think somebody's going to have it. I only did it cos it was such a long number to put in all the Mm. time! I didn't put Debbie's in because, we don't ring New Zealand as much as ring Hong Kong, but but I've thought of it being a dangerous number but I'm, there it is! Yeah. Ah ! We've got loads of numbers on this phone! They're good these because if they've got display on them Yes. you can put the name in. Oh! So er say I want ring Sarah at work Yes. I put er er if I put the first letter of it, er er it's S that'll search it and it'll say Sarah work Oh I see! and then the phone number then all you've got to do is press send and it'll ring it. Oh! And then if I if I want to ring home see I'll press that that just brings up the Oh! yeah, then press that one is at home if I just press send Yeah? and then it rings it! Yeah. That's off your car is it? Yeah, this is a car, put that out the way Car phone, yeah. so tha that's all it is! Yes I see! Then you just Vodaphone or whatever it is. you just plug it in there and charge the battery up. Oh! We got one for the car, you plug it in the cigarette lighter Yes. and that fills the battery up. Great ! They're a little expensive! Bloody expensive to use as well! What are? Mobile phones. Those phones. Yes! Are they? Yeah, Cellnet phones Yeah. are. That is twenty five pound a month line rental Yes. oh it, it depends, I don't think ours, we've actually got twenty five pound at the moment, that's, I dunno, that's, that's what it normally is and it's twenty five P or thirty Ooh! five P a minute. Oh yes. So it's quite expensive. It is very expensive innit? Well I know with Arnold and Antony is Arnold's not so bad cos he uses his quite a bit er but the tendency with Antony is, when the bill comes in each month th the rental is double what the usage is most of the time. Mm. Oh we try and use ours as little as possible but still we've had high bills. Where's the love? In the drawer behind you. Well I've switched my office phone over and, well they actually wrote to me, but I've switched mine over to this er discount, if you do more than a hundred pounds worth a quarter. Is it Mercury? Mm. No, B T. Oh! Er, B T. Come on! What is it, a regular users' Yeah. phone? Yo you pay to Yeah,the they've just brought it in. you pay for the privilege then don't you? Oh dear! Well no, don't pay for any privilege, it's just that they've That's for , for Antony. that they've just discounted users. But you can't I only get it on line one because line two I just use as an a as an incoming call line, or if I'm . caught on one and I want to ring out in the other at the same time I can use it. Doug's got tha , a goo , a good system, which is another new one. It's it's part of the Star system. But he he's got a two lines on one phone Mm. and you only need a normal phone Mm. er, I suppose it's got one of those R buttons on Ah yes! but it's now erm, if the phone rings and he picks it up ah, er and he's talking to someone on the phone someone else tries to ring Yes. erm it won't be engaged, they will get a er er er, a erm voice saying erm the caller is on another call at the moment please hold the line Mm. and, you hear o this, er like three beeps and if you press the R it will hold wha , the conversation you're on You're on an you can now go and you can speak to the other people, and then you switch back Mm, it's or, hang up and then the phone will ring and you'll get the other who's Mm. there. It's quite clever. But it could be annoying to the person holding on. And they've got cos you've been answered so you start clocking up don't you, at that point? And they've got a call barring system as well, as well , I like that! Erm say, you ca , you can tap in a code Yes. and that phone will be useless, won't be able to ring out on it Yeah. or you can ha , tap another code in and it'll only make local calls and another code you can only make nationals Mm. Mm. er , calls in this country and erm another code and it, you Mm. can phone anywhere you like all over the world. Yeah. Trouble is with this quarter, with this discount I'm probably not going to get to a hundred pound at the office because I've been using it at home so much. Mm! But I now get er er er, get an itemized bill from Telecom, so I'll be able Yeah. to re-charge on the basis of what's been charged. So what happens, say if you pho , phone the dirty phone numbers? Th that'll be on. That's right! You can, you can find out. Well I only did it out of curiosity basically to to see how much er, one spent in in calls with th , like Lyndsey in Hong Kong. Yeah. And I suppose it's almost Mind you, that's pre , I've only ever known that fifty percent of your phone bill on most occasions. The only Only on unusual calls we on make are er itemized. on normal phone bills, but er the international calls international call they do. Yeah. Well it only gives you units used though Yeah. it doesn't tell you the number it went to. Mm. And this does you see, you get it with the number. Do you know all that now? It's quite interesting that where you think you've you've rung say, Freda or Amber in the evening and you've had quite a lengthy conversation in, mentally you think that Yeah. and when the bill comes in you find it was only eighty six P or something like Yeah. that. You expect it to be more like three quid or something. Yes tha that's right! And, do you know now, from from Bournemouth erm That's er er, Antony frequently used trunk calls there's some on the frequently used trunk calls Mm. erm are not for example, if you phone London from Bournemouth it's not the same band as if you phoned erm That's right. Brighton from Bournemouth That's right. There are because it's numbers there are areas Yeah. now aren't there? It's London, Bristol, Yeovil where else was it? I wasn't really looking. But not from Yes. they don't do it from Banford, for example, that's Oh! not the same exchange. No. It must be this new dish that's changed, it must be I dunno. Obviously some I was interested too that got the new phonebooks Mm. at work, and they got all the Mercury numbers in Yep! as well. Ours has got our mobile number in as well! Has it? Yeah. And it don't cost any more. No, I know! You could have one of the Oh it should have a Mercury numbers in cos all they actually do is rent a B T line and pay for it. Yes, I know , yes. So But th they they cheaper to use aren't Yes. they? Not for local, local calls cost a bloody fortune! Local Yes. calls are do Yes. about three, four times as expensive Yeah. but er Local calls are a fortune when you think Yeah. if you've got no B T lines. Yes, it's only on erm trunk calls that you really Mm. score isn't it? In fact, I think in Bournemouth you can actually make locals on Mercury now at the normal rate which is good! Well you might be able to get long distance I think it's all a bit complicated for me! I can't understand it all! Well what used to be simple and straightforward now leaves you with th wondering whether you got the right card in your pocket Mm. or something doesn't it? Mm. We haven't had a phone call so it must be good! Mustn't it? Are you going to explain this to them? No,wha why, we'll talk later on, don't worry now. Oh thank you. Mm. I was watching the ice hockey on here last night, last night, the and Czechoslovakia one and a Canadian guy scored a goal and the announcer said they'll be celebrating that in his home in Canada if they're watching, listen I bet they are! He's got seven brothers, and five sisters! I said oh ! Can you imagine! I'd like to be their mothers! I bet you would, yes! Yeah ! Big money! You might be their money when they're all at work. Yes. Be alright on your birthday! Yeah I suppose it wa , it's like Maureen's parents, both her mum and her dad are like, children of thirteen! Yes. I think, Maureen, I remember when we were about fifteen, at the last count she had forty nine first cousins! Wha Really? Let alone second cousins, but first cousins, she had Heavens! forty nine! Good grief! And they all buy each other Christmas presents! Oh dear! Oh no! Oh dear! But he couldn't! Yes. Oh, ho ho ho ho! How awful! I don't even send my cousins Christmas cards, let alone the Can you imagine it though! I mean Even if you only spent a quid, a couple of quid that's two hundred, er it's Even with the uncles, even with your aunt hundred pound isn't it! Even with your aunts and uncles Well you spend a lot money and their other Mm. halves, you're looking at forty eight? Yeah. No,mo more. There's thirteen each side Yeah. so that's twenty six Must be wonder so that's fifty two Mm. aunts and uncles Mm. But still think of the presents you're getting too ! Yeah! Yeah,yo you get out a bank loan to do it, and then you ask for it, then you ask them for money for Christmas, to pay it back off ! Can you imagine what weddings are like! Can you imagine? But er, nobody else can come the church is full of family ! But er most of them , but she's got a couple over here, I think. You'd have thought that with a family er that big they wouldn't be like with cousins. I don't,sh I don't think like more in, each kid in each family will buy each kid in every family No. their actual cousin to cousins, but the aunts and uncles of the family, they all buy each person a present. Mm. But it's still a hell of a lot of presents! Yes! Quite! Cor! Start buying after th They're co sweeping the carpet up. The mess. As long as she doesn't sweep us away! Stop it! No. Catch! No, that's the car business Antony. Bloody awful! If you say so. What do say Sarah? Yeah! Bloody! Pretty good this week but had a bad few weeks as well so not setting the world alight yet. No. But we have, but we have put up the salaries which is good Oh . and dad's been away so I've sold Peter a few cars. Did he tell you? Take advantage. I see ! One with a big engine, you see. Where's where's Bruce? Skiing. Skiing. Oh he's gone skiing! Yeah. What wi So when do they come back? Haley and Tuesday. Er, Haley, yeah. Haley in the end Got actually, flying to Ah! And that's what he likes to say anyway. Yeah. Plus he went skiing on his own at Christmas and he went down straight away. He's really good is he! At the age of I think he's eighteen now. Yes? Something you'd like? You're going to get the drill and have a go at the drilling session? Mm? He likes the drills. Oh cutie! Oh! Ah! Oh! Th , the trouble with Felix is when you're doing something he likes to be there. Oh course he does! That's right! And I was in upstairs It's interesting! and he That's wha that's what our cat does. Yeah. I'll have to wallpaper your bathroom, then paint it, I then have to touch up the door cos it's that kind of paint and I had it like, on the top of the loo, I was doing it up a bit, and the next thing I saw was Felix coming onto the back of the wind ah Oh! window and I sort of pinged the cat's tray, you know, if I shut the door and walked back in and hid the paint on the side, and on a couple of occasions he was painting that window and suddenly this cat appeared outside Oh dear! on the ledge! It's like the man who was doing putting the two new windows in. Oh God! Put the glass in and he kept coming and si sit, trying to get on the bloody windowsill and getting out! I bet! But Antony was doing it and you put her on the tumbledryer behind him, and it was so funny cos he's like this with his head going round Antony looking, every Oh! time Antony looked round he went like this to Yeah. say I'm not watching! You never look ! Oh! And his head was going back round watching. He likes to get involved. Yes. What would they do without you now, Felix, eh? Have a good , put the cat flap in. Well I suppose we ought to go Mr . Yes, I suppose we should. Mr! Where are you er Yes. Your brakes sounded a bit squeaky in your car. When you came up. Did they? Mm. Ya. It's it's almost due for a service again. Sounds like you had no brake pad in it whatsoever! They were finished and which is the main reason to have it serviced. Gotta go back to the . Actually, I've noticed that once or twice today. Yeah,we well it could be one of two things that's all. Could be a bit of dirt on the pad which squeaks, that's all. Unfortunately, brake pads nowadays, they're not allowed to put asbestos in any more. No. the sque the squeaking. Remember when we went on that caravan trip up to the and we got dirt on the brake drums at Oh! everywhere we went we screamed through town! May I understand you have a caravan on the back at the time? Yes. Yes. Oh it's horrible Oh! innit! Felix! What are you doing? Yes, and Ho the Opel. Ah! Ah! Ah! We stayed at And then we there was a chap with another with another Opel who was a bit of engineering type, so he took my wheels off and cleaned the pads for me you see. Know wha do you know what about I remember about that holiday? I just remembered the caravan, and like, we had the floods on the Valley and everything like that and you all had the caravan okay, and on the way home in that petrol station! Station Oh I know! yeah! The caravan, we'd like, made sure that nothing happened cos we were renting it, and then as we went through a petrol station, on the way home It did! it had taken five . There was a bit jutting out wasn't there and Yeah. she didn't we had to manhandle the caravan Orford otherwise, you know It's hideous towing a caravan innit? Oh! I hate it! Well tha Graeme hated Mm Abs I ne I I er Go on! It's alright once in a while, but I can't see what people see about being addicts and always towing one, it's No. Do you remember going down th the Good Lord! erm Look at that! Norwich, three, Liverpool nil! Yeah. Do you remember going down a erm, a ha a ahem The other thing I remember though thingamabob to do it? What, when we were camping? You took her down. When we were caravanning I wouldn't go Sarah. down. Sarah? When we were caravanning? Oh we Yeah. went down the slate mine. Yeah. Did we? Do you remember that? Remember we went down that slate mine? No I don't! Er, yes. Yes. Well I wouldn't go down it. You and I went. Did we? Yeah,i , it wasn't a working mine, it was an old mine and they We went into a mine? Went into the slate mine, yes! I went into a mine? Yes. Well I wouldn't do i I wouldn't do it now ! Why not? It wasn't one you went down, you went ah! Oh right! I don't see Pardon me! It's like going down a tube. Is that making you sneeze? Yeah. I remember that when we were there we went on th , it was either a boat or something? A boat? Either a boat, something like that, and, like you know. I can't remember ha half of these things! It was something like that. Or an open top thing something like that. But I remember going on it and I had those transfers on my arms ? You know, like the transfers you get Oh yeah! that the real tattoos and that. I remember I had this one on my arm and we were we , I was wearing a short sleeved t-shirt and there was some Americans sat behind and I said,ca , I can just always remember one thing Gosh! Her pa her parents letting her have a tattoo and ! Oh no ! And I was like, giggling to them and everything, and they think I've got a tattoo on my arm! Oh lovely! I dunno. It was great! I just can't remember doing that! I can't remember what it was on, but I just remember we were sat on something. Do you remember going on a boat? We did do Mi we did go on a boat. What on that caravan trip? Oh yes I know where it was! Yes we did. Yes it was down in er ah! Down in the South Wales wasn't it, where Yeah. we On our way just got into Wales and we camped on that flat land and then we went up the riv , oh we've got it on the Yeah. cinefilm haven't we? Yes. Yes. I can just remember the people being sat behind and then saying gosh, how can she have a tattoo at her age! I don't re Yes, I imagine you doing, yes! I remember going fishing? Or attempted to with a net! Cos I remember it rained and the caravan nearly came in the river. I remember that! Something sa , it was something Gat wasn't it? Er Mm, mm mm. Go gol Ghayoit Ghayoit. No. Er er er Yes it was, began with a Gha Ja Yasunsgat Ah. Ya Yasunsgat we're talking about, it's a But I do remember that. Yes you're right I'd forgotten that boat trip. But we've got that on cinefilm. the boat trip,I had a tattoo. Oh yes! I think that's lovely! But I think it's true. Actually I had the . Oh oh yo , trust you ! Oh ! Er, that was quite a good place that Yasensgat whatever it's called, wasn't it? It was I think we stayed an extra day didn't we? I honestly, can't remember Yes. the It's quite nice there. I remember staying in Basgarat Yes, I remember that. Well we stayed,we well almost a week there didn't we? Cos we went to Caernarvon Castle. That's right. I remember that much. And I remember staying by the river and going netting for collect tadpoles and that Yeah. You'll have to buy the batteries that ain't they? Mummy hasn't got to buy those she Oh we'll have to buy them out of Felix's then. You er Shall we tug at her tail? No! Antony, don't be so horrible! He doesn't mind. He doesn't but Antony doesn't mind, no! Felix minds! I'm not that cruel! There, there Yeah. Felix! Gets too long, that one. I'll move the lounge round today so it's not Oh yes. a squash. Yes. Well yo Get some space. can have a dance there now. Yeah! Very nice! Once that video's done,. It still worked alright though. That Good excuse! Beep beep beep beep! Beep beep beep beep beep! I'm really , lovely aren't they? I think it's a lovely room though, that! You're not papering your walls are you? He's papered by himself, that's true. He's getting a bit of a boring old fart! Aren't you? Eh? Boring old fart, in't you? Won't play with your daddy any more? You doing any work today? No. Good! No. I'm very glad to hear it! It's Saturday! Good! Have you been working at home? Are we going to have a Chinese meal tonight? Well that's a possibility, I No suppose. not a possibility! Is it or isn't it? Well, is it or isn't it? That's a good question! After due consideration, ya, I think so. Good! But I'll go to the other Chinese, I'm not going to Oh, not the other one, no. Well, yeah, I had a meal from there when you were hospital but What,Ho Choi's Ho Choi's yes. Well the last one we had there we thought was exce , excellent, but Ho Choi's use used to be brilliant ! But I had Yeah. one, I had a sweet and sour Hong Kong, and urgh, it was like leather! Yeah? It was awful! It was we had fried oysters in Where can we get it from? Well get it from the other Chinese. Get it from the other one. Next to Zari's Which other Chinese? Next to Zari's Oh yes. Okay. Peking Shop. Yes. Or thereabouts. What are you doing? What are you doing? Got a new toy, toy? Got a new toy, toy? Got a new toy? Mm mm. You wanted a cat toy, you better play with it! Got it! I've got it! Yes! Let me borrow your coat a minute, I jus , I don't know if he'll do it, he usually does it if you're wearing something like that coat. He wo , he won't hurt it? Don't No! worry about that. Doesn't matter. Where's she's going? Where's she gone? Yes. Oh lovely! Eh? He'll curl up in it. Here he goes. Ah! He's lovely! I think that's great! Like a hidey-hole. Oh isn't that lovely! He loves it! Look at him! You need a, you need a camera don't you? If you have a skirt on, or if you're wearing a dressing gown When sh , Sarah comes in with a long skirt on he , he goes up He goes straight up my skirt ! How lovely! I mean he he lies on the side of it and Sarah He'll sit on the back of it and I can't get up! Even with a dressing gown as well, he loves it! Oh! It's lovely! He was like that wasn't he? I shall need a new one by the winter because I've had that for four Yes, that's ri years! Yeah that's true. Is it worn out? Are you coming Yes. out? It doesn't look worn out. Are you coming out? It's it's gone past its sell by date, you see. Yeah. Yeah. Needn't be worn out, it's just the sell by date's expired. Are you coming out? Mm? Ha ! I think that's lovely! Coming out? . Oh excuse me! You're lovely, eh? Oh! Eh? Well so the outside's done then anyway, apart from the patio. You've done very well! Next month's the patio. Yes! Been lucky to get Yes. it done in this weather, too, hasn't Actually April he really? Mm! April, I think we'll be Well Yeah. Yep. Yep! That'll be a big job. Yeah. Tha it's the preparation really, that's the big job isn't it? Well, I've gotta Once yo fence it all as well. Oh yeah. Ooh! Having You know, fence it all the way around. Yeah. Having asked You are? Bruce to Yeah. do this conservatory, Bruce has gotta come in and see how the problem Yeah. Well we , it would be more than one percent inevitably. Well he's gotta get all the tiles up he's got to hasn't he? Yes. And the low tiles cos then you Mm. Well it's the hard job getting the concrete down isn't it? It is a long er , job. Well you just dig round it. Yeah. Or they can saw it off and then put the others in alongside. Yeah. But there's only really one that you're gonna have to move isn't it? The one where the fence comes they've asked to fence this end, it's that, those thin bits over Yeah. there. Yeah. Yeah we used all the old ones. Well we, we get seventy pounds to match what we've got, those . Then there's er So But but, but thing isn't on them as well. So Well there we are. After me phoning that, for those tickets for er Oh yes! Ah yes! for er two hours that day Yeah. they sold them out the next morning, they'd Yeah. sold out. And th they they've announced the next day that they're having the same concert as well! They're doing an extra Ah! day then. Ah! But I'd rather have it on the Saturday than the Sunday anyway. Yeah. Well , demand you see, they've decided that Well is Simply gonna be there at two o'clock? Yes, well said three point two million pounds in takings they've had! Yes. They're gonna, the gates open at two Not much really is it? Not really is Oh! it? they apparently don't go on stage till half past seven That's right. and yo , you're gonna be there for seven or eight hours! Yes. Take your pa , pack packed Oh yeah, yeah lunch with you. Gonna take a picnic. Erm Oh well. seven hours or more. Yes. It said in the E , the Echo I read in the Echo it's er, Friday's Echo that the first band comes on at four Mm. Simply Red don't come on till half seven Half seven Seven, yeah. But do you think they're gonna be on a for at least well maximum, probably two hours Yeah. Right. that's half nine, half nine, ten really, two till ten, eight hours. That's five and a half hours and we've got to be there at two Yeah. that's seven and a half hours ! It is a long while isn't it? Yeah. The thing with th , with getting there at two for the gate right, because you can go in and get seats, for that amount of time you want a seat. You can't take any booze in there either. No. But it's best to get a seat for that length of concert. Five Oh well! Just goes to show doesn't it? Gonna be a hot summer's day in most places. Get some of those little fold out chairs just in case we're er Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Too right! Quite! Quite a few cans of Coke and things like that, quite a few cans for relieving yourself! Oh lovely! I'll be er be pouring, pouring vodka into the Coke have a little swi a little Oh dear! smuggle it in! Well that's it, we'll take a bottle of Coke that's already got the vodka in it. Yeah. Have a lovely day! Go out and have a look at outside Yes, yes we'll do that! Have a lovely time! Well it's not till Aug Aug So July, so Well, by then you'll have the lovely we weather by then. Cor! It'll be too hot! Oh, look at that That's right. patio! Look! Look! Ah! So It looks nice doesn't it? Yes. Oh it's miles better than it was! Seeing as it all peeling and chipping. Oh super! That's right. Pity the numbers aren't straight! They're alright! They're alright! Looks better than it did did! looks very posh now! I think it's It's that super! Well you'll just have to get some Brasso out and clean them up won't you? Bit long! Well the bus peel off them, all the protection Oh I see! peeled Yeah. off. It's very nice. Very good indeed! Just gotta tie a bit of wood on the end of that bit where it's rotted. Jolly good! Good! Hello! Hello! Hello ! Hello Joyce. How are you? Oh okay thanks Graeme. Yes? How did you get on with your eye. In my own little way! Well Wha I've had a lot of troubles! Even now, you know. Are they Don't better, or getting bett Don't think I'll ever be the same again really! No. I don't. No. on both of them. Well, I had to go to Westbourne again, to the to the laser you know? Yes. And they were all haemorrhaging at the back. But now I'm I'm sent four of everything, or more local . So you got four husbands now? Oh God! No, yeah Aren't you lucky! four husbands asleep! Oh I see! Yeah, cos he's been a great help to me! He told me he would of put mum on more or less That's funny ! No, not really. No, but Kenneth's not what you call very helpful, if you know what I mean? He thinks he's better keeping out the way,she'll Well I don't know what he thinks really. He's so used to me doing everything that Does it, yeah. That is my fault, I suppose. But then I'm used to him doing all the sort of gardening and I mean, I wouldn't think of doing that, or decorating, you see. Mm. He's got a lot of matches this week, he's got he was on duty last night from six to ten, this morning he's got a match, tonight he's got a match! Yeah. One Wednesday, one Friday morning. It's either all or nothing at all down there. Yeah. Coming to the end of the season now What is it ? and they got a lot to get in, you know before they start going Where's Zara? outdoors. Sitting there! Of course they get covered mud and That's where Ken and Zara went on Saturday night. T V. Yeah. Did you know that Graeme? Sorry,yo , no? Royal bowls on T V this week. Oh is there? Every day Oh. yeah. So Erm you know need to keep him awake do I? But of course, I mean mm? Do we keep him awake do I? Well I keep threatening if he does fall asleep I'm not gonna wake him up! It's funny how he manages to keep awake! Er, when he comes off tonight just after two hours, say to him now don't drop off! I won't! I won't! Oh it's coming from Preston! It used to be in Bournemouth, they had it at Bournemouth for quite a few years. Yeah. Bu but David was playing yesterday and erm forget who he was playing, but David lost. Did you want coffee Graeme? Yes please er Oh! But of course, you know he's sitting there saying, you know all woods and ooh it's Yes that wide, or it's too short or . But he's going to watch it at his mothers I keep having a conversation ! And how have you been? Alright? Good! Thanks Hazel. Do you want Alright. any more? No thank you love. Ooh! Ooh! We've decided now that you you mustn't treat me like a chi child. Don't you feel better, feel much better? Well you know what I mean! Yeah. I thought so. Did you see, hear, see what I said? Gotta be a bit understanding Yes, I heard what you said! I'm just wondering why why Hazel , Hazel thinks you shouldn't treat me like a child! Do you Hazel? I think you should let her get on with it Graeme. The then she'll, she'll realize what she's missing! She'll miss it. Yeah? Do you know what I mean? Well I do a lot! Well I do, I do let her get on with it, but I have to make sure that she doesn't Wait, wait for it! Wait for it! overdo it you see. Yeah. And end up falling flat on her face or something like that! Yeah, perhaps it'll be a good thing actually! In fact she's just complained about what you're That's right! doing for her ! Oh! No, yeah I'll come with you , you go off and stay with Joyce, look after her for a little while and let Kenneth sort things out ! Look after me? Yes, I I think that she might appreciate . Yeah. Actually, I don't really mi mind him looking after me, he's very good! But I I don't like being treated like a child! You're not treated li Oh I'm sure we don't treat you like that! I wouldn't mind someone doing the cooking! Ha , I hear you're a good cook? Oh he loves, loves cooking! Well that's what's annoying ,I got the help ! Yeah but I don't stop her doing it if she wants to! Ann hasn't Oh Graeme! Ye Ann hasn't done a lot of cooking for a long time though, have you really? Because of the whatever you call it Well I do do Oh yes! Yeah she gets, she gets the evening I do the ones that meals and ev evening meals, things like and often a that. the lunches over weekend. So, the thing is you shouldn't be such a good cook Graeme! That's right! That's the trouble! That's what I tell everybody, when they say to me, oh no,you know, we never go out for a meal! I say well shouldn't be such a good cook! I mean, there's quite a few husbands I know that absolutely hate being out! They only like their wives' cooking! And I said, you know, well if you weren't a good cook, he'd be glad to go out and have one ! Ah, but that's no consideration for the cook then is it? Cos she would like to go out and have a meal Yeah. that somebody else has Yes, that's it! cooked, shouldn't she? That's right! Yeah. Yeah. Morning Zara! How are you? Or is it good afternoon now, isn't it? Yeah. Well, did you enjoy Saturday night? Yes! It was quite good! Good! Yeah! Good! Not bad. Had it's er, moments, but Ha! Oh! You know that bit when in the last act where they're sometimes sticking together Oh yes! and felt that that was a bit hairy! Oh! Well tha , they did that quite well I thought. Yeah! Doing it properly in that. Yeah. Didn't have an awful of trouble with that six er, six pages of dialogue which sometimes they're speaking together and sometimes they're speaking alternately. they're they're speaking alternately and er, it was Oh dear! it was very difficult! Mm. Very difficult Needs good indeed! timing doesn't Oh. it? Yes. Oh Yes. Yeah. And er, it was bit sort of not the place to learn yo , forget your lines! No way! It's a bit sort of stilted. Ah! Well there But you are! er apart from that it all went very well. The set was quite ingenious, I thought! Aha. Yeah , it was pretty good, it was Yes. The erm, bed-sit sort of on a raised bit Yeah. you know? Yeah. The sitting room was on a at the stage. Mm. But er the timing with the doors is very good, I thought! Yeah. It all went quite smoothly that bit. Well I tell I was you wa we wouldn't be my choice of play but erm i it Yeah. was quite good, in a way. Were you there when you, ee, you talking about that, there were two mistakes on that one er er doorbell went and it wasn't telephone, it should have been the telephone! Telephone. Aha. And the other one was the car coming and going. Going. It was the wrong side. It was already i i er, no it was already in the room and the car was ! Oh Right! Oh dear! Oh well we got, the timing was out was it? Actually, they they they did one car Going away. going away, but it was still and didn't come back. on the wrong si , it was on the wrong side Yeah. i it should have gone on Gone the other side of th , you know, should have come from the other side. Was it a ? No! No! No! No! , but No. it wasn't! You were meant to laugh it was a comedy, should of made it It was very good! really. Yeah. Changed too many sets. Oh! And it was, it was good! Oh I see! Mm! Emma did that. Oh that looks Altogether, I think like each it can be like Yeah, I know. what's it, McGee in a different type of play. We saw him down at Coventry. Oh erm Henry McGee. Henry McGee. Yeah. Right. Try to think back who we saw at, I know Terence A ,Terenc , Terence Alexander was one. I'm, I'm trying to think. And I can't, I can't be sure whe whether it was Patrick Cargill or er Nicholas Parsons in the other Yeah. part I know. I can't remember. Didn't like him but, you know Yes. Broadstone Estate Agents, they've been there since last . Did you find it much mu , mail? Cor! A terrific lot of mail, yes! Really? Yeah. A lot of it I can just push aside but Mm. one or two pieces I had to deal with, or bring home with me. Mm. Ring people up. That's er , we hardly ever see Lynn do you? Cos I must get to ask her, I don't know how she's getting on. She's , she's still living with Murray. Oh! Well you did say one or two things. Well I saw Murray , yeah, I did once. Said one or two things. She said yeah, she likes a new baby . Oh! She said that er Yeah. Didn't want to work, you know full-time if she can talk to her mum. Graeme, can you go round to Cara's Oh! while I'm here. But she's back talking to her mum. Not today. Oh no Yes! she wasn't! They're open. Well she won't tell her On a Monday? the truth. They are open Oh I see! on a Monday. Oh I thought they were closed on a Monday. Oh I see! I thought that they No, it's open. Oh well I'll go round then. Fix an appointment up love. Well, well put me in for I reckon she might be in fo Well they all went into Wednesday. work and I I didn't. and I Yeah. helped them I often think, was that part of the reason why I wasn't on? Yeah, he was going on a . Yeah. He was good was he? Yeah. Not bad. Oh good! . Hello love! Hello. Look at you, yeah? Yeah. How you doing, alright? Yeah. Good! Hello. Hello Neil! Hello Barbara. All the best! Yep, er yeah isn't it shocking! Yeah. Hello! Yeah. Hi! Oh, it's a just trying to sort out this business of this the offices that we're being let in the Strand Theatre that er people are moving in this week and they've got no authority to move you see. Really? This is what Ni , I spoke to Nigel about on the phone on Friday and said he could Yeah. stop it, so so he had to erm just talk to our solicitors this morning and try and get this sorted out between the two solicitors. Did you get through to him? Yes, yes, got through. Well not David it's a er, Susan got Mm. Susan. Have you read it now cos I shall have to Hello! So erm take it back? I can't do it, can you do these How have you been, alright? That a bathroom cabinet up there? so they're, you know, explain the situation to her because it's between the two solicitors to sort out now and get the writ, writ sorted out before anything could be signed to to allow them to move in. Yeah. It's a tricky situation actually because Well what do you say the the lease the ? well th the, the people who have the actual lease of the offices have gone out o er gone out of business in a sense, they're no longer operating and because, they were part of a bigger organization, that bigger organization guaranteed the rents. Now this bigger or , this other organization which wants to put th er another tenant in as in a, as a sub-let to their lease Yeah. and, I am saying that they haven't got the lease Yeah. even though they might be part and parcel of the same organization, they are not the leaseholders so they can't make the arrangements, so if they want to make the arrangement they must have the lease assigned to them first, then we will come to terms with them over land and to under le under let. Yeah. But, you know, they're just being going on as if they are i in a position to grant To do. to do! And, having said that we haven't, at this moment, approved an under-let anyway, so No. But, you know, the situation is difficult in that if the people did move in there's not a lot you can do about it because it would mean that you would have to surrender the lease, which means you've let the guarantors off the hook for paying the then and you're left without a tenant whatsoever. Erm it's, it's trying to get an amicable solution to it. Yeah. Oh. Darling, will you get me a a scone, another scone teacake Teacake. Aha. and erm and a coffee. Okay. Okay. Can you er pay, pay Ye yes. er Yep. Teacake, I don't remember ooh ah, toasted teacake, oh it's fifty five. What do you have, tea or coffee? Coffee. Coffee? Hundred and seventeen, a hundred and seventy two again isn't it? So I will pay that. What have you done to yourself that hurts? Put my back out again! Put your back out? Yeah. Oh! One seventy two. Is it? Oh right! Thank you madam. Thank you. Thank you. You oft are you? I'm off now, yes. Okay then. Mm. Yes, yes Anything yes. exciting at the office? No! Oh well, yes. Well lots of mail. Lots of mail? Lots of mail. An interesting situation which I've just explained to Ann, whereby at the weekend there's a set of offices in the Strand Theatre which the company that we're operating from there so stopped Can you manage? business Yeah. but they're part of a much bigger organization who Mm. was guaranteeing the rent, so the rent has been paid even Paid. though the office Yeah. has been vacated and they wanted to grant an under-let to another Yeah. body of people to try and reduce the rent they were paying erm but it, it's er, it's initially a difficult situation that we have said yes we don't mind you erm we don't mind granting you that, but we want to know if you will accept an assignment of the lease from the previous company cos Mm. from our point of view in nineteen ninety three, we have to deal with somebody over a revision of the rent and if the company doesn't exist it makes it very difficult! Yeah! Yeah. Quite! Yeah. You see, so these people were going to move in at the weekend so had to put a stop to that cos they had no authority to move in there until the solicitors try and get this thing sorted out. I wonder what they'll do? But it ma , it's a it leaves you this interesting situation in that if they had moved in what do you do, cancel the lease and get them out? Which means the guarantor no longer has to pay you the rent so you you don't really want to forego that either, yeah. So you really, bit of a clever stick aren't you? Yes. Yeah. Very, very . However, it'll all come out. It'll come out in the wash I guess! Right , yes. So there we are. There we are. Well thank you for your company this morning madam. Thank you, yes. And erm It was nice! Oh I enjoyed sitting Yeah. with you! Cos we weren't that busy that we were able to devote a little bit of time. Ta time. Oh good! Jolly good! It's lovely! It was very nice. Yep. So, we'll go home now. Yeah. We'll go home. Go home to a nice tough, clean house shall we? Thank you. Yeah, it's nice when you walk in Yeah. and it's all clean Lovely! and sparkling That's right, yeah. isn't it? Yeah. Look after yourself. Yes. You too. Right. See you tomorrow then She was let off yeah. she was let off lightly this morning cos there was hardly any ironing to be done you see, because I haven't worn Oh, so she had that. shirts all week really. So she can have a little bit to do That's right. Bye bye love! Yeah. See you then! Bye! Take care. See you so Bye! Bye bye Hazel. Erm things getting, getting re relative to grow up and quite honestly I can't really get ma man imagine growing up I can't at all. Well I don't remember it being any hassle for me. No I don't. My mum and dad were nice, they never used to make life hard for us and if we wanted to go out, all they wanted to know is where we were going That's right. and perhaps who we were going with, you know. Well we, we were so happy everybody Mm and we were always told if we wanted to, we could take anybody home That's right Mm but I don't remember any hassle about it at all I don't either , I don't either, I don't either, at all. We had , we had limits on what time to be back Well yes yes, you know unless yes, er it was a special occasion which they, then they'd accept that you'd be back after midnight, but Yes, that's it, that's right Mm but if you were reasonable with them they were reasonable with you, I, I can't understand young people of today We were very it's the same when, when, when our kids were young and they were quite good weren't they? Mm Well it was like Zara really I used to try and not say er, you know, to make her feel uncomfortable and that sort of thing, but I did use to draw the line when they used to be eleven and half past eleven saying goodnight and I had to get up at half past, six o'clock, seven o'clock Oh yes in the morning and go to work morning, that's right , yeah so I was started work then and I said well look I just can't do it and then I am in fact a self-employed business advisor, management consultant Mm. call me what you will. Under contract TEC come here usually one day a week to carry out these interviews erm they poke me in any corner they can find. Yes. Erm I started my business some nine years ago when I was unemployed under the Enterprise Allowance Scheme. Very much a rubber stamp exercise in those days and as a result of that only one in four of the businesses that were supported was actually surviving at the end of the first twelve months. Mm. So when the Training and Enterprise Councils were given responsibility for a new stream of scheme they said quite rightly I think that they would only support survivable businesses. They wanted to ensure that people sufficient skill and training to run their own business and that they'd done their homework. That policy appears to be paying off in as much the national survey run at the beginning of last year showed some seventy two percent of businesses were still there after eighteen months. And locally we carried out a similar exercise some six months ago which showed that eighty two percent of the businesses were still there after months. Still there, but not necessarily making a profit. Right. Okay? Yes. Right, you seem to be pretty well qualified. I hope so yes erm What made you give up education? Erm quite frankly I erm pulled out because of stress. Right. It was a doctor's instruction basically. He I I'd been to them over a a period of about two years erm with all sorts o of different problems and in the end he said, You know I can increase your drugs but that won't help. Mm. I know how to sort your problem. It's to remove you from the source of this, and that is the school you're working in. Right. So I took his advice and left. And you are actually qualified to teach the organ? Organ, piano erm harmony, theory anything to do with music basically. I mean did you progress to the organ through the piano or? Erm yes and no. It's something that I worked on er independently as it were. My father who was a er a clergyman taught me the piano from an early age and er I first became interested in the organ purely for money purposes in fact , when at the age of fifteen a local methodist church in Durham where we lived at the time said er, We need an organist. We've heard you playing the piano for the local Sunday school erm we'll pay you sixty pounds a year, which in nineteen fifty whatever it was a lot of money, provided you spend half of that having organ lessons. And I duly accept their off accepted their offer. Right. from that. Erm we pay our church organist I think twelve pounds a year. Yes it it varies from one to another I think. Mm. The Royal College of Organists wouldn't be pleased to hear . And you have you own organ do you? Or No I've go I've got access to several in Right. A cathedral organ or Yes yeah. Do you play in the cathedral yourself or ? I have done in the past, not recently. There have been other things occupying me recently . Right. Yeah. And do you find I mean you mention somewhere in here that you have one or two potential clients. That's right. Are any of those for the organ? One is yes. He's got his own organ at home erm Mm. erm but essentially now I've discussed with him, as I mentioned in my er plan, er the intention is to meet anybody who wants musical services and find out from them precisely what er they really need. He doesn't need organ lessons and I've advised him as such and he's accepted that. What he was particularly interested in is he's been taught the Yamaha method in fact Right . where his right hand, he's a very confident music reader and plays but his left hand he's merely sort of hangs there like a claw and plays the odd chord Mm. and he wants the same facility with his left as with his right. So I am proposing with him to er undertake a fairly simple but comprehensive business of reading the bass clef, using the left hand, and introducing it into the kind of music that he already plays, and at the same time getting him to play other music as well, which he seems to be very happy . Right. Erm organs are classified by the number of stops they have or something, isn't it? Erm not necessarily no but er yes that that is partly important in that if it's not there you can't use it . Mm. I mean how do they I'm just trying to remember because I remember Yeah. having a session with an organ builder right ? Right. And he was talking about one two three four stops. Have I got the right term? Yes oh yes yes. A stop a stop is a misnomer because it's in fact a starter. Right. When you draw it you allow to enter that rank of pipes . But what okay some organs have one or two keyboards Two keyboards yes. Some have four Right. that I've seen. I mean how do they categorize that? Does that relate to stops or what? No each each division is a separate erm section of the organ in fact Right. erm and in the traditional er properly made organ as it were, the pipe organ, erm each keyboard er is available to you to play from. Each keyboard has its own ranks of pipes and each sound, each rank of pipes is controlled by one stop Right. so that for instance you can have four stops on one keyboard, three on another and the three sounds that are available on this keyboard are available from those, the four sounds that are available Okay. Plus the feet pedals? Plus the pedals. And you can then also couple between keyboards so that if you want to you can play the sounds from this keyboard on the lower one by coupling the two together and making them work as a pair, but that removes the inde independency of being able to set one against the other. You make an interesting comment about your wife's experiences that ones ends up with a private practice. What does she do? She's a piano teacher. Oh right. Yes. Okay. Works from home. So she can give you her overspill work. Well yes yes . Okay. Alright. In in fact one of my one of the pupils I am proposing to work with he's one of her people who have contacted her and she's she's quite deliberately limiting the number of her days in the week she teaches to two. We have a son who still lives at home who in fact has been quite ill for a long time and erm she you know the amount the work she has done therefore has been seriously limited. She's definitely erm reduced it to two days a week. Okay okay. Er you will I think have one problem er in working for the L E A. Erm I happen to be a school aid inspector and I'm finding now quite a with er with the income tax people at the moment Mm. because I'm self-employed and you're intending to be self- employed which means you're That's right. taxed under schedule er D D and I have just done some work for Derbyshire and they have deducted twe tax at twenty five per cent and for my invoice. Erm and the difficulty is proving to some of the L E As that you're actually self-employed. So you're gonna have to if you do any work for L E As Yes. set that up right at the beginning which means going to the Inland Revenue To the Inland Revenue yes. and in our my case give a zero or or an infinite, I'm not sure which way round they'd do it erm tax coding which I find Mm. annoying cos I sort of flared up with them and said, Well quote me the law, and they can't quote you the law I mean they it's just someone who they seem to be we do it . conniving. Yes. Well they're creating law I think . Mm. Yes. another issue. Now I've been told by other people who've er erm gone down this route that I'm proposing to follow with L E As that erm there are two ways round it. Either you've got to do what you're suggesting, go in right at the start and say, It's all sorted, here's the coding, this is what you will apply, the Inland Revenue have agreed it already, you you know don't use your own system. Or you accept precisely what they do and claim it back at the end of the year. Well you hope you claim it back at the end of the year . Well you hope you claim it back. But you haven't got the use of that money in that , the government has . No of course, yes, yes. Right. On principal I don't like that idea . Now what are you going to do, I mean you you've listed out here your marketing approach. Yeah. Erm how much do you think you'll need to do that? Well quite an amount of it has been done already. Erm the the talking about the the idea with various er colleagues and contacts within the Southwell area obviously continues. It works on a continuing basis. I was talking with a erm a well she's not a colleague actually she's another piano teacher, only about two days ago while walking dogs, she's walking hers, I'm walking mine, and, Oh I see from your recent advert in the local paper you're accepting piano pupils. Yes erm Ah I don I don't want to you've advertised. Yes. No well erm this was a form of market research. Right okay. It was try trying the waters and er I merely, you know pla place placed a reference there saying erm, Was it possible? And er she said, I I have occasional requests, I'm full at the moment, erm would you mind if I passed some of my enquiries on to you as and when they occur. perfectly alright, thank you very much. those contacts exist erm I ant anticipate publicity in communicating with local schools and other institutions and things like that and there after merely maintaining some kind of a a a regular advertisement slot in the local paper that says, Yes I'm still here, because people forget . Erm perhaps operating a mail shot at the beginning of the academic year with the er er appropriate educational and other institutions. It's be the best system for this kind of thing . My wife's never ever advertised in fact. Mm. People just got to know about her. Okay. In fact as far as local education establishments are concerned, I've already had two enquiries from direct enquiries from schools saying, Are you available? I'm not available yet erm because I retired under erm health on health grounds. The authority refuses or did refuse to consider me as a supply teacher in nay capacity until six months had passed. This was a ruling the Medical Officer er instituted. But er because I've had requests I've approached them and said, Well we'll get your documents released and see see if we can speed matters up because use your experience . happens , what about the public schools around? Public schools, there are only three or four fairly close. I've written to them all. Erm I've not had any replies from any of them . Erm but I intend to er contact them again and say to them, Well you know I'm still here and should you hit problems or find that you've just lost one of your erm staff who were providing the kind of services that I do, don't forget that I'm still here. Okay. Alrighty erm I'll put it through as approved. Erm a letter will go from the powers that be here er later today I should think. It certainly should get out today. Erm back to Newark Enterprise to tell them you've been accepted . Right. The Business Plan will go back with the letter to them. I'll tell you why in a moment. Give them a ring on Friday to see er that they've got the letter. If they have then organize a date and time mutually acceptable with them to go in and sign on. When you go to sign on you will need to take with you evidence of having opened up a business bank account . . The Business Plan goes back with the letter because they will require a copy of the business plan so that they when they see you at three, six, twelve and eighteen months Right. they can compare your books and your progress against the Business Plan . and you will also need a copy if you haven't got one have complete copy of everything I've given you . So there's there's no problems. Right any questions, anything I can do to help you? Erm actually I've spoken to Ian at erm Newark TEC, and he's already arranged to see me tomorrow afternoon. Now he does tend to jump the . He's quick off quick off the mark. I shall catch him out one day. He he he actually suggested that I might like to call and see him this afternoon but I wasn't available for that so well Yes, yes. tomorrow it would have to be. Okay. Erm apart from that no, unless you've got any other suggestions from your long experience as being a self-employed person by way of guidance. Well the only thing I think you will need because you're going to go onto other people's premises and I Yeah. don't know if you've got it in here or not, it doesn't look as if you have, but you will need public liability insurance. That I'm organizing in that I have now done a little bit more research. I've contacted the Musicians' Union and the Incorporated Society of Musicians. Yeah. Erm membership of the Incorporated Society of Musicians which comes at about seventy eight pounds a year does actually include public liability Yes. and I am making I'm in the process at the moment of making application to be accepted by them . I mean you you might fall over and smash his precious organ or something Oh this is true yes. and er if he sues you er well at least you Yes. would be covered for that sort of thing or No this this is covered. with people coming into your house for instruction if they fall over the front door mat Yeah. and break a hip or something you know then Well that's already covered in fact within our house because we my wife as a Ah right, yes. teacher erm our we've already made sure that our own private Yes. insurance does cover that. Right. Which she won't want to know about. Come in. How do you do. Hello. Now then. What can we do for this young man? I to see you my chest. Your chest? Er it's, I cannot get to sleep for nothing for it. What ? And every time I cough I think that's just bringing it back on again. Right. Are you getting anything coming up though? No. No. No blood or nothing it's just er No, no phlegm? Nothing like that? green. Green stuff? Aye. Green stuff. Right. I'm not getting any sleep at all. I, I maybe fall asleep for maybe an hour or two and then I'm woken and I'm coughing all the time. And I think it's irritating my hip again you know? The Yes. Oh aye. coughing? That funny stuff you gave me you gave me? Yes. Well what I've been using is Vick and it seems to be burning. Into me but it's, I don't know if it's doing me good or bad. Now a teaspoonful in the morning. Teaspoonful at tea time. And two teaspoonsful before you go to your bed. And that'll get the inside of that sorted out for a wee while again young William. Right. Okay ? Right. Thank you. Eh? Have you got your insurance line alright? Er I don't know I, I, I don't know when it is. I think it I think it's a few months to go yet. I don't know. Got a wee while to go. Aye. It's a year one wasn't it? Oh aye. Six months to go then. Oh Six months to go eh? Right ho. Right. See you later. Cheerio now. Cheerio. So we can read that and just put the towel on the table. Right. If you'd like to tell me how many how many sixths you think there would be in a whole one. erm How many fourths would there be in a whole one? Erm How many how many halves? Halves erm two. Right two so is you shared it out between two people you get a half, one,twoth , one over two . If you shared it out between three people how many so they all got the same how many would they get? Can you show me how much they'd get? Yes. If you shared it out between three. Mm. Should I put it together first and then That's it Three. So which piece if there were just three of us, you and me and the dog sharing out a pizza how big a piece would we get. A third. A third. So share it out between three you get a third. If you share it out between four people how much would we get each? A quarter. Good a quarter. Share it out between six people? A sixth. A sixth good. Share it out between ten people? A twelfth. How about Mm Ah okay share it out between twelve people. A twelfth. Have a guess share it out between ten people. A tenth. That's it. Share it out between twenty people. A twentieth. Good er share it out between five hundred people. Or between a hundred people. A hundredth. A hundredth. Share it out between a thousand people. A thousandth. That's it. So you've got it haven't you you know that's that's all it means. All a third means is that's what you get if you share one between three so they all get the same. Er what does a sixth mean? That there are six people there are six of us could have a maybe Between six people and they're gonna get the same that's all a sixth means. And which one of those is a sixth? That's it okay. What does a twelfth mean? Erm that if there was twelve people they'd all get the same piece each. That's it that's all there is to fractions. And which one's a twelfth. That one. Well I think you're doing very well on the fractions. Okay we'll leave that for a minute and we'll have a look so you can forget all about it right then I'll ask you later when you've forgotten okay. Let's have a look at erm what you did with the the numbers then. I've done I've done the ten one . Okay. Erm now do you know any of these? You know five add five don't you. Yeah. Erm I'll turn that over erm right and I'll say a number and you tell me what number you'd have to add to it to make it up to ten. Erm seven. Erm four. Oh seven and two seven and three. Seven add three good. Erm nine add? Oh nine erm one. Good. One add? Nothing. One one add what would Oh zero. One add what would make ten Oh one add nine. That's it one add nine. We'd write a one and a zero Yes. but we'd have to add another if we only had one penny we'd have to add another nine to get ten P. you're doing well on these. Eight add? Eight add two. Good erm let's think of a hard one six add? Six add four. Good. Four add? Four add eight. Six add four. Six add four makes ten. So four add six. Good. Four add six makes ten. Erm you did eight didn't you what was that? Eight add? Eight add three er eight add two. Good eight add two. So two add what would make ten? Two add eight. Good. So have a look at the ones you've done here right. Five add five Five. Nine add one. let's see You know five add five don't you. Yeah. Nine add one you know that one that's that's not hard. So if someone says one add? Nine. you could work that one out. So you only have to learn half of these you don't have to learn all of them cos you can always switch it round. If you Just what you were doing what you worked out isn't it. So eight add two eight nine ten. It's just eight add two. So what would two add eight Two add eight. What would that come to? Ten. Yeah. Erm seven eight nine ten . Nine ten. Three. Do you think I'll tell you not to count on your fingers? Well it's better if you can do it in your head it means okay you're a bit cleverer cos you can do it in your head. But if you can't do it in your head what you going to do? You've got to use your fingers haven't you or get some pennies out and count them. Or write it down and put little dots and count up the dots or something it's a erm a lot of the Who tells you not to count on your fingers? Me headmaster or sometimes me teacher. Mm sometimes the teacher but more the headmaster. Yeah. Mm. Don't like getting into disputes into arguments with schools but in our lessons I don't mind if you count on your fingers. After a while you get when you first start the first time you ever ride a two wheeler and you have someone holding it or you have some stabilizers on till you know what you're doing. And then when you're okay when you've been riding round a bit you take them off. And you're, Ooh stabilizers. you say to the other kids, Ooh you don't need stabilizers. But when you first started when you're not quite sure what's happening you can't be expected to be perfect the first time you have a go at something can you. So use your fingers write down bits and more and more you'll be able to start doing it in your head then. Erm I reckon you could probably So if you keep practising these. You can practise them on our fingers. So if I say seven add you could go eight, nine, ten three. Three. Yeah and after a while you won't need to do that. You'll know them then and you won't need to use your fingers but while you're learning I don't see why you know why you can't use them do you. And if they say you can't at school well alright close you eyes and count, pretend there are some fingers there like that. That's good. That's very good numbers that add up to twelve okay. Erm that's that's really good again you'd only have to learn up to six add six wouldn't you. Yeah. Cos five add seven seven add five would come to twelve. Now Twenty four. add up to twenty four okay and right okay And there's thirty six there. So you had a lot of practice adding there. Now what I want you to do I want to just have a look at it now and I want you to play with it over the holiday on your own. Have you got you your pennies? Yeah I'll go and get them . Okay let's have a look at those. Okay so Right Cor! Gracious they're a weight aren't they. They really are a weight. Okay you've got a fortune in here. What have we got Can you sort out ooh just the pennies. Yeah. Okay how many have we got there roughly ? Erm two three four five six seven six seven eight nine ten eleven twelve Okay stop at twelve for a minute. And keep those that's it keep those pennies separate. Now let's put some of these back seven eight nine ten just sort out another set of twelve. eleven. Okay. Stand these up. Another set of you just sort out another set of twelve pennies then we'll . Twelve. Okay. Yeah. Twelve six seven eight eight nine ten eleven Okay that's lovely. Six seven eight nine ten eleven So how many have you got altogether? Could you do it without counting them? You've got two sets of twelve. How much would that come to. Two times twelve Could you do it by adding up on paper? Erm It was twelve add twelve wasn't it? Oh yeah. Two ti two times twelve is that the same as two add twelve? Yeah. Yeah. Two sets of twelve so we could say two times it or we could add twelve to twelve. Which which would be easier do you think? Erm me tables'd be much quicker. If you knew your twelve times or your two times up to twelve that would be quicker but if you don't I've done the answer. Oh brilliant now how did you do it? Mm used me two times table. You used your two times table good. So you had you had twelve pennies in one pile and twelve in another and you're doing twelve add twelve now you could have done counted the whole lot couldn't you? One two three four That's take ages. Or you could take a bit of a short cut say well we've already got twelve there thirteen fourteen fifteen sixteen and so on. But that's a quicker way. That's really all we're doing we're just sort of counting how many would we have if we have twelve add twelve. Now if I'd said how about if you had erm sixty add sixty do you think you could do that? Sixty er Have a have a go at that it's sixty add sixty. Now is it easier if you write you them one under the other do you think? Yeah? Yeah most people find it a lot easier if you write them one underneath the other one . Right good yeah that's correct. A hundred and twenty. Now that's much easier to do it on paper than if I say well the only way to find is let's get sixty pennies out, you count sixty I'll count another sixty then we'll see how many we've got. So it's just a quick way of doing counting really. A quick way of doing adding. When we do adding up, if we add two numbers together, we'll always get another number. Yeah? You've been doing quite a bit with things that add up to ten haven't you and you've been doing things like seven add three comes to ten and three add seven can you read my figures? Yeah. Three add seven makes ten. It always gives you another number another counting number that you could use for counting your pennies. Now these counting numbers they're okay aren't they you know where you are with those no problem. So adding is okay when we add that's no problem. Now what about when we take away? It goes a bit weird so we'll leave that for a while let's have a look at erm what happens when we're doing times. What happens when we're doing times now you did two sets of twelve didn't you? Yeah. And you did that with your two times table so because times means the same as sets of or lots of. It doesn't make any difference whether you say two times twelve, two lots of twelve, two sets of twelve, two piles of twelve does it it's all the same. So times multiplication is the fancy word for it but times is good enough. That'll always give you another counting number wouldn't it because it's the same as adding really. Say there we are you can add twelve add twelve or you can do two times Twelve. two times twelve. Okay sixty add sixty or you could do Sixty you could do six times six two sixes. You could do two times sixty . That's it two times sixty. If if you had erm eight eight add eight eight add eight add eight. Eight. How can you do it? Erm Using your tables. Three times eight. Three times eight or eight times times three doesn't matter which way you do it, it'd come to the same thing. Three times eight's better that's the the right way to do it. So really when you're doing times when you're doing your tables you're just doing adding aren't you. Adding lots of different l lots of things that are the same. So times is okay. Three times four or four times three they just give us counting numbers again. Nice numbers that are easy to work with we can count out the pennies, count on our fingers,let you. Okay you can sort those out but when we get to take aways it goes a little bit odd doesn't it. So let's see, you've got just check and see if you've got ten in that pile. Yeah. Okay so if I do ten take away seven what do you think that will come to? Ten take away seven is three. Good now how did you get it? Erm How did you work it out. Cos you did that in your head you didn't use your fingers or anything how did you do it? Er I u used like I did with the adds and Alright. and then and then I s and then in me head I did erm seven take away ten and then I worked it out and it turned out to be three. I had I had eight nine ten left in me head to make three . Mm good so if you know what adds up to make ten Ten. if you know seven add three make ten then you can work it out just in your head. Ten take away seven makes three. Okay so we can do things like that and we get counting numbers and we're quite happy with those. So it works sometimes take away but sometimes you get things like ooh let's see er I'm making a mess of this you can write it out nicely. Seven Take away take away ten . ten . So I'll say there we are you've got seven pennies there now take ten away. You can't. You can't you can't and that's what people thought for thousands of years lots of years. They thought you can't do it. But we we have these have you come across negative numbers? Directed numbers? On the number line? Erm yeah. Yeah what did you think of them? A bit confusing. They can be very confusing if you don't know what it's about. Let's say I owed you erm ten P. And I said, Oh well there we are take it If I gave you a pound Yeah. and said take that ten P out of that how much change would you give me? Erm ten pence out of a pound ninety pence. Good you're very quick on money. Now if I said you know that ten P I owe you well there you are take it out of that seven pence. And keep the change. How much more would you want? Erm three pence. Three pence. So we call it minus three. We call it minus three I still owe you Three pence. still owe you three. Okay if you try to take you've still got three to come Mm. that means. Erm we'll look at that then we'll look at the nu we'll have a look at the number line and we'll look at temperatures. Have you done do you remember looking at those. Do you ever watch the weather forecast and it says especially last or a few months ago say it'll be minus three tonight? Er no. No well it's nought zero that's the temperature where water freezes. And if it's about four it's up here the normal four. So it'd go went down one it'd go to three, went down again it'd go to two. Went down another one what would it go to? One. And then if it went down another one? Zero. And if it goes down another one? Erm It's gone below zero. You just say it's gone to minus one . Minus one. And then if it went down another one? Minus two. And another one? Minus three. Aha you've got it. Okay that's all that's all these minus numbers are about. Negative numbers, directed numbers all sorts of funny names for them and people get very confused about them but we'll sort those out we'll have a look at the number line which is a good way of doing it. So take aways sometimes they work and sometimes they give you a nice counting number and sometimes they give you this thing. Ooh what's this. Really it means we can't do it so we'll we make it up we've made up these funny numbers so that it'll always work. Cos we don't we don't like to say in maths we don't like to say we can't do it. And the same happens with sharing sometimes doesn't it erm how many have you got there let's see? Seven. Right there's twelve I'd like you to share that out between three people please. Three people. Twelve shared out between Three people. Okay we'll leave these out like that so we can see how many we're getting. That's it that's very good okay. and how many would they get each? Four pence each. They'd get four each. Twelve twelve anything it could be twelve Mm. twelve cups of tea. Right twelve shared out between they'll get four each. Now how about this one then? Okay there's three let's pretend they're pizzas say three pizzas share that out between twelve people. Er twelve people Mm. Most people say say you can't do it you can't do that can you go on. Hey with twelve people and only three pi You'd have to cut it into twelfths. Yes go on. You cut it into twelfths and then you erm Good so if we cut the first into twelfth what how many pieces would they get out of that's be twelve pieces altogether okay. And they'd get one of those each wouldn't they. Yeah. And then what would we do with so that's the first pizza that's dealt with and they got a piece like that out of the first one. What would they do out of the second pizza? Erm What would we do with that? Cut it into another twelve . Cut it into twelfths again. Give them another piece. There they are with another twelfth for you. Another twelfth. And the same for the last one brilliant. So they'd finish up with three pieces like that. Three twelfths and we know what three twelfths looks like. Three twelfths'd be one two three Two three would be? Er a fourth. A fourth a quarter. So they're going to finish u they should finish up with a quarter so again this sharing sometimes it works okay and we just get a normal counting number. Say well that's okay. And sometimes we go, ooh no we've got fractions. That doesn't matter. That's interesting isn't it. Twelve shared out between three you get four. Three shared out between twelve you get a fourth. Three between twelve you get a quarter. Or a quarter as you say. How about this one how about twelve shared out between four how many would they get each? Twelve shared out er Try those share those twelve out between four people. Mm one two three You get three pence each. You get three pence each. Cos when we shared it out between three it was like if you just stand up and have a look along there. Okay? Mm. There you are well you stand there that's a person standing there. Yeah. And the dog can stand there and then that's there's the three people and they get four each. But if you look at it from this way four people standing there they'll get three each. So twelve shared out between four they get three . Three. Right how about four shared out between twelve people? How would you do that? Four shared out between What will that come to? That's that's not going to be as easy as the last one. How would you do it then? Er Use them as pizzas maybe? Yeah brilliant and what would you do with the first one? Erm cut it into twelve. Cut it into twelve so they get one twelfth from the first one. Carry on you tell me what Another twelve another twelve from the Yeah. second one. And another twelfth for the third one and another twelfth from the fourth. So how many twelfths would they get altogether? Erm four erm Four they'd get four twelfths. Well that was three wasn't it? Yeah. And another one that's four and that would make how many how many twelfths in that? Erm three three. One two three Two three four. Four. Four. Four twelfths. So four well that's interesting isn't it? Look four shared out between twelve Between twelve. You get four twelfths . Four twelfths. That's that's just another way of writing it. That's just the same thing it's not really answer you just say four shared out between twelve. And the same here three shared out between twelve it came to three over twelve didn't it ? Yeah. And that was the way you did it first. Your idea cut it into twelfths. Brilliant and that came to the same as one quarter. And four twelfths came to the same as? One third. One third. So twelve shared out between three no problem there we get four. Three shared out between twelves it comes to ? Between twelve comes to a quarter. One fourth a quarter. That was four that's one fourth. Mm. Four shared out between twelve Between twelve. Sorry twelve shared between four ? Between four is three. But? Twelve divided by Four. Four divided by twelve That's it four shared out between twelve people Twelve comes to one third. One over three. That was four and that's one over four. This was three and that's one over three. Mm. How about this one? What would six shared out between two people give you? Shared out erm How many twos make six? Mm. Two two whats would make six? Three. Two threes are six so what we'll do is we'll say let's say how would you make six? You'd make it with two two lots of three . Three. like that two lots of three. So six shared out between two we've shared it between two people they'd get three each. So the sharing's a bit like doing the times only the other way round isn't it like doing it backwards. That's the answer now what was the question. Yeah so sh six shared out between two is? Three. Three. Have a guess at two shared out between six? Just have a guess at it. Two shared out From what was happening here. We did twelve shared out between four was three. Four shared out between twelve was one over three. Have a guess. Two. Er two shared out between six people. Here we are there's your two pi two pizzas now share that out between the six of us. Cut it into twelfths Yeah we could use twelfths we could use we definitely use no no that'd be good. Right that'll work very well. Erm let's say you and erm and who's the other girl? Natalie and And Gemma And Natalie. and Joanne. Joanne Okay well let's say you and Joanne and Jemma. You could share that one. And I'll share the other pizza with your mum and is that your auntie so Yeah. with your mum and your auntie. Okay so how many will you get when you share that with Gemma and Natalie and you? Mm How many people are there? Three Three Yeah. so you're gonna get one shared out between three which is? Three three is You just you just write it like that one over three. A third a third. So it comes to a third. Let's see if we can do it a different way. Now you suggested you had a very good idea you said we could cut it up into twelfths. Okay cut the first one up into twelve twelfths. Okay now there are six of us how many twelfths will we get there are twelve of them. Twelve twelfths out of that out of that first pizza. Mm. We didn't really need to cut it up into so many small pieces i would work but we'd get two of these each cos we've got twelve little pieces now and there are only six of us to share it out so we'd say, Oh well have er we'll we'll have two pieces each two twelfths. that'd be er a sixth. Good. That'd be a sixth. Okay so we could do that in the first place we could say one pizza there well we've got two pizzas but we'll let's just concentrate on one, share it between six people. We'll we get sixths. We'll all get one sixth that's dealt with one pizza what about the next pizza? Erm cut it up again. Exactly same with that cut it into sixths. So we get another sixth. So how many sixths would we have altogether? Erm As there are two pizzas . Two. Two sixths oh well there's one sixth for you let's find the other one. That's how much that would be your share if we shared six pizzas between two of us and it's going to be the same as I said when i said well you share with your mum and Natalie. Because two sixths is the same as? Erm fo a quarter third. A third. That one's the quarter it's the one with the corner on. Okay it's a half of a half. It takes two of those to make a half. And there's the third same as two sixths. So it doesn't matter whether we look at it as whether you'd get a third or whether you say you'd get two sixths well it doesn't matter cos it's the same size it's just it's cut into two pieces or the way you wanted to do it which was a good way with the first pizza. Cut it into twelfths . Into twelfths. And how many would you get you'd get two twelfths. Two twelfths. Right you'd get two twelfths out of the second pizza as well there's another two twelfths so you'd have four twelfths all together. So it doesn't matter which way you do it whether you get four twelfths, two sixths, or one third, they're all the same they all comes to the same thing. So four twelfths, two sixths, one s one third. If you share two between three of you which is what we've just done right? Yeah. Let's just write down here I think what we've got hey? What did we do? We shared out share out two between six. Two shared out between six is So that's one of the answers that we got. Two sixths. You did it by twelfths and we got four twelfths and the other answer we got was one third. So if we sort of put in here one one third what does it mean? Well it means just one shared out between three of you doesn't it? What does four twelfths mean? Means shared out between four of us. The the people always go under the table okay. shared it between twelve of us. That's right and how many did we share out? It goes on top of the table. A quarter four. Four when they're on top of the table it's just a number four okay. So that was four shared out between? Twelve. Twelve of us. So it doesn't these are all the same all comes to the same amount doesn't it. You get the same piece of pizza whether it's two shared out between six, four shared out between twelve or one shared out between three or twenty four shared out between a lot of people. We could maybe work it out. So we've had a look at some of the numbers now haven't we and some of the things you can do with them. Adding up that's no problem you never get any surprises do we we all get another we always get sometimes it's hard but we always finish up with another counting number. Times sets of and lots of, that's the sam it's like counting in threes or counting in let's add another three, add another three add another three. Okay or add another six. So it's a bit like counting and we keep getting the same counting numbers that we're happy with. Take away what happened there? Well sometimes it works. When doesn't it work? When do we get these funny numbers? When erm you have a lower number. Very good very mathematical. Yes yes yeah when the first number is smaller than the second one. When you try and take away more than you've got. If I say there you are there's there's two P take five P out of that. Can't do that. It's when you you tend to say first thing you say is can't do that then you think, Oh well we get the we have to do it just playing silly game we get these funny numbers. It's just a game so that we can so that they can't say there caught you out. You have to say you can't do that I'll make up a new game to play. So they make up this game with negative numbers but it works very well it's very useful. Erm we need things like that for windows and building bridges and things like that. Sharing sometimes no problem. When when do we get the problems with the sharing when does it go into fractions? Erm when you have a lower number. Right very good yes. When the number that we're sharing out when that's less than the number of people. And there's another there's a really awkward one. Do you want to go for it yes let's try it. A really awkward one you can get in sharing. Let's say if we had erm six shared out between four okay? One two three four five Six. six. Okay share it out between four mm. How many are we going to get? Well let's do it. Right give them one each to start with and then you've got two left over. Mm put them in your pocket. What are we going to do? It's awkward isn't it. Yeah. Well let's say there was Joanne and Natalie sitting there and you and me say. That's one for Joanne, one for Natalie, one for Kerry Now what would you do with the two that you've got left over? Er What could you do? If we were sitting together here and Joanne and N Natalie were sitting over there and we've got these two pennies? We could maybe if we have Joanne, Gemma, Natalie, me, you Mhm. No we've just got the four of us. Just got the four of us. Erm How about forgot about one of the pennies for a minute this one if we shared that out between two of us. How if you get one each and then you get a half share in that. Mm. So how much would you get out of this bit? What fraction would you get out of this if it was shared between two of us? A twelfth. Just just between the two of us. Erm a sixth. So it's it's one one pizza. Your mum brings the pizzas in she brings six pizzas in right great big ones. And she said Oh I thought there was supposed to be six of you here today, some didn't turn up. Okay so we've got six pizzas only four of us. So she goes round right there's a whole for you, and one for, one for you, one for you and she says, And you won't want any more will you? And everyone says, Ooh yes yes lovely pizza this yes. Oh so she's got to share it out evenly. So she could say How could she do it how would you do it? Erm If you were the mum and you brought these pizzas in and there was four people sitting there when you've got six pizzas and they all want the same size. Now we've done one each and we've got two now to share out between erm these four people. Cut it into Cut it into what size pieces would we cut it into? A twelfth. Yeah we could cut it into twelfths but there are only two people so they're gonna finish up with lots of little bits aren't they if we cut it Yeah. into twelfths. What do you Could cut it into er What could we cut it into? Oh half. Right good so we could just cut it into a half. We could say well there's our it's a half for you and a half for you and we cut the other one and they get a half each. If we if they weren't as quick as you are like that working that out what you could try is say well I've given them one each there's the four people one two three four right you've all got a whole one so you can start eating that while I sort out how I'm gonna share this out. Now this is the fifth pizza now how am I gonna share it out. Oh well there are four of them there so why not give them all and I'll cut this pizza into Erm quarters Into quarters exactly cut it into four. So there they are while you're eating that another quarter each. And what shall we do with the last pizza so that Erm cut it into half again and Cut it into? erm quarters. Quarters again yeah and give them another quarter out of this so they get they've got a whole one each and then we've got two left over. Now out of that two we'll say well share it out between the four of you take a quarter each. Out of this one take a quarter each so how many quarters would they get? Erm two quarters. Two two quarters. There's two pizzas shared out between four so they're going to get? Two quarters. I think you're doing very well on this by the we're getting through an awful lot here it's usually even with very much older children they take a lot longer to get this. So sharing out two six shared out between four what you'd normally write if you can't do fractions you'd say once remainder two wouldn't you. Mm. You'd say once and two left over. You say well what are we going to do with those two left over? Well hide them. But now we want them all shared out so instead of saying one remainder two we writ it like this now. Six divided by four is one and two left over we won't get two whole pizzas each we'll get Mm. two quarters two quarters. And what does two quarters come to? A whole? one quarter A half. is a half okay. Which is what you said earlier when you were working them out you said, Oh so they get one and a half each. one and a half. Now those I think and quite a lot of other people do are probably the most awkward ones. They're not hard once you understand what you're doing how you get it because you're sharing out but they're probably the most awkward when you've got mixed whole numbers counting numbers and fractions all in together. Erm then they get a bit awkward. So what I'd like you to do when you get some get a cardboard cutout. Yeah. okay when you get those cut out you can just play with them just get used to the sizes and the shapes and erm make sure that you ask someone. the erm Right so if someone holds up this piece and you hold up this piece to your mum and you say what sort of fraction is this? She says I don't know. You'll have to wait and ask John when he comes. Well let's work it out. How how could you work out? Erm Now this is this is the answer really what was the question. this is what we finished up with? Now what were we doing to finish up with a piece like that? We had a pizza and we were going to share it out between how many people? Erm three. Three so good you should find that three pieces just like that the same size as that would all just fit together to make a whole. Right so that must be? A quarter oh a third. A third. Nearly you were going right all the way along there. right so that must be a third okay and someone holds this up and says, What's that? A sixth. Good. And just check it to make sure. Go all the way round and make sure you need six like that. How did we get this piece. What were we doing to get that? Erm got the corner Mhm. It's a fourth a quarter. That's it it's a quarter. We were sharing it out between four so we got we we always say a quarter I think I think it's a good idea the way the Americans say a fourth cos you can it ties it up with the four shared out between four people. And you could do the same for the A twelfth. Take you all day going all round with a twelfth wouldn't it. There's a slightly quicker way. You're happy with the sixth aren't you. There's a sixth. That was shared out between six people. If there were twice as many people You'd get Just go on. two out of the s You's have to get two pieces out of every sixth you'd have to cut that down the middle . So you'd just You'd just put the sixth if you know that there's two twelfth you just like that and then the twelve and then you could count round like that Right you could you can count round any way you like and the quickest way the easiest way that you're sure works that's the best for you . Is to work out how many sixths how many twelfths are in sixth Right. and come round. Right now I want you to do a bit of adding up okay. Erm what would a third add a sixth make? A third add a sixth put three add six down and then maybe One one third just write down one third add one sixth. One third add one sixth. Now I'll tell you the tell you the trick of what goes on here. You can't when you've got the numbers just like this it doesn't seem to work out so we've got to go back to find out what it means. Erm well you could change them both into Sixths. Into sixths very good. How many sixths there? Two. And how many here? One. So right so that's brilliant so underneath that third how many sixths is it Two. Two. So you could just write two sixths instead of that and it's the same. It doesn't matter whether it's one pizza shared out between three of us or as we tried earlier two shared out between six of us. You still finish up with the same amount. One third, two sixths, four twelfths all the same thing. Add one sixth okay. So just copy that one down underneath. Er two sixths add one sixth is going to come to how many sixths would you have? Three. Three sixths okay so. You can just put your add in there as well. That's it. Equals three sixths. And three sixths makes? A half. Okay. You could put there equals a half. Three shared out between six we'd get a half. We could put ourselves in three lots of two and your mum came in with the three pizzas we'd get one between us so we get a half. Those two get one between none none for people peeping through the door though. Okay. I think we're getting very very well. What about a a very awkward take away then if you're doing so well how about this there we are. A third take away a quarter . Quarter. Er Let's see what it does come to? What do you think it comes to? Erm comes to a twelfth. Yep very good it comes to a twelfth. Now we've got to make that's what really happens that's real. This is just playing games with the numbers to see if we can get the right answer. So how are we going to get the right answer? Well any suggestion if you'd like to write it down one third take away a quarter. Mm any ideas? Erm see how many quarters we've got there. Mm have any quarters I mean you'd get one and a bit. Anything else we could try to see what're in a third? How many twelfths. That sounds like a brilliant idea. Okay and how many twelfths? Er Instead of finding out how many twelfths in a third we could find out how many twelfths in two sixths couldn't we that'd be a bit easier. Four. Four okay so underneath the one third you can write four twelfths. Just pick up my top Okay. Right mind you don't stand on it. Where's it gone? Where's it one. Patterned carpets are hard aren't they to find things in. Oh well I won't move in case I tread on. Oh you've got it. It was by the door. Right and how many twelfths in the quarter? Erm one two three. So it's four twelfths A third and third three twelfths and a fourth. That's it so it's four twelfths take away three twelfths . Three twelfths equals How many twelfths would you have left if you started off with four twelfths then you took away three twelfths? Er one. One twelfth left. And that's what we got with this. So that idea of yours change them all into twelfths it's a brilliant one. That's that's the way we do fractions that's the way you do adding up fractions or taking away fractions you change them to the same. Okay. Changed if that's one third it's four twelfths one, two, three, four . Three, four. How about this one? One th you try this one on your own. One third take away one twelfth. One third one third take away Take away one twelfth. one twelfth. Er so you take away twelve? Well what are you going to do with that one third what are you going to change that into? Erm twelfths so that'd be four twelve twelfths . Four twelfths good. That's fours twelfths and Hang on hang on you've just written a quarter you said four twelfths. Oh. Okay four twelfths take away Take away one twelfth. Take away one twelfth okay just write that down that you've got to take away the one twelfth. One twelfth erm One twelfth Right so four twelfths and then you take away one twelfth. There's the four twelfths take away one twelfth. How many twelfths do we have left? We had four took away one twelfth three. Three twelfths left. Equals three twelfths. And three twelfths is the same as? A quarter. A quarter. So we can say that many that equals a quarter. Right now have you done cancelling fractions? No. No. Cancelling fractions is when somebody ha gives you somebody says erm you say, How much pizza did you get?three twelfths. three twelfths make it a bit more simple oh well it's just the same as three three twelfths is Same as a quarter. A quarter. Okay if they said they got four twelfths. same as a third. Same as a third exactly. If they said they got six twelfths? same as a half. Very good okay try this one. A hard one nine twelfths . Twelfths same as a whole. Twelve twelfths would make a whole wouldn't it. Now nine twelfths Twelfths. What would six twelfths be? Six er erm qua a half and a sixth . A half A half good and then you'd have but we started off with nine twelfths so we'd have three other twelfths and three twelfths is the same as? A quarter. Okay so nine twelfths would be enough to make make a half out of the six twelfths. two sixths. Make a half we'd make a half out of the six twelfths and then we'd have three left over make a quarter so it'd be a half add a quarter that's what nine twelfths would come to. There's the half it'd be the same as a half add a quarter. What does a half add a quarter come to? Erm Well we usually change them into the same thing don't we if we're going to add them. So if we change them all into quarters how many quarters would there be in a half? Two. Two. Two quarters add one quarter how many quarters altogether ? So three. Three quarters three quarters. Okay I think you're doing very very well on the fractions actually how do you feel? Do you think you know what they're about don't you. Yes. You're getting the hang of it. Now you need quite a bit of practice. You're understanding them now very well erm if you don't practise them a bit well this is what happens. You next time you come to do it you'll be doing you'll remember nearly as much as we're doing today but perhaps some odd little bits you'll think, ooh now how did we do that I can't quite work out. Cos we've done a lot haven't we. We've done a lot today. So some odd bits you might think, I'm not quite sure how you work that out. Not quite sure how you do that. So you might have to try and a try and find out again. Play with the fractions. Last night mister mister does those fractions Okay now some people you mention fractions and they scream and run and, Ah no no hate fractions. and it's cos they don't understand them but you're understanding them I think very well now so you're going to like them. You get someone with a sharp knife Yeah. to cut that out. Mm. And then you can have your own fractions and you can just play with them and erm I'll give you some sums to do with your own fractions. Now we we'll have done some of them there and I don't want you to look there okay I want you to just try it I've got another book in me in me room. Quite a big book that I could use for doing me homework. With fractions okay if you like to get that and I'll Right Do you take sugar in our coffee? Er no sugar no milk. No sugar no milk okay just the coffee that's lovely she's just gone to get a book for some homework. She's just popped up to get a book for some homework. Aha right okay that's lovely. Now you haven't got any schoolbooks with you have you No. the work that you're doing at school. No because when you when you are back at school erm We bought a sheet home fractions on. Did you could you could you find it fairly quickly do you think? Yeah. Okay great. I'll write some of these out for you. Er there Aha let's have a look. Mhm. Right so you don't know you're not too sure about centimetres and millimetres hey? No. We'll look at that some time. Do you know how to multiply by ten normally? Yeah but I got a bit stuck on that one Mm it's a decimal thirty six point nine. How about this one? Fifty nine divided by ten. How many would you have left over? Oh lovely thanks very much. Okay. Erm How much how much would you have left over here? Ten er Are you any good with money? I think you are. Sixty pence sixty pence divided by ten how many tens? It's divided by ten How many ten Ps could you get out of sixty pence? Six. That was quick it's the same yeah. Now if you only had fifty nine pence Fifty nine pence. How many ten Ps could you get out of it? Er five and then nine And nine left over. Okay so that one's five remainder nine isn't it you can change that one later. Okay. What decimal fraction of the circle is shaded ? Shaded. Erm one two three four five six erm four From six whats how many what are these pieces. How many pieces to go all the way round. One two three four five six seven Three four five six seven eight nine ten Right so they're tenths. So this was so they had a pizza sort of shared it out between ten people. Okay so it's not just six that's that's shaded it's six tenths six out of ten okay. So that one'll be six six over ten. And that's a decimal fraction okay. And we'll have to change that to we'll write it as six over ten then we'll write it as point six. We'll have a look at decimals because you need to need to know what you're doing with decimals but decimals are fractions and until you I mean I think you're very happy with fractions now you're probably ready to go on to decimals. Erm we are I think do you. We'll sort them out cos they're just they're easy really. They're erm they're just fractions where the bottom is always tens or hundreds or something like that so they're easier than some of the other fractions. So we'll have a look at those. Now which of these fractions, three tenths, point five, a quarter, point two. Well you can't which is the largest? Erm I think you need to know that nought point five is five tenth five out of ten which is a half. So that's quite a big one so we don't don't bother about any of these the ones that have got tenths or decimals in we'll have a look at that. The difference between okay. Now are you supposed to be doing all of these? No this sheet's from ages ago I found it in me desk when I was tidying it and er I asked me teacher if it Mhm. was any good and she went, If you want to take it home and Mm okay cos I see I'd like to know whether you're supposed to be doing decimals and things at the moment. It doesn't matter if we do it a little bit before you do it at school because when you do it you'll understand then and you can get a lot from it you can ask I think we're doing decimals in schools at the moment . You are okay. Well we'll have a look at that then. Erm now this is this this is very tricky these are erm mm aren't they? Hey some of these John's got forty pence and Paul's got two fifths of it . Hey and a cyclists speed She bought a book for one seventy five she gets seven fives to the rest of the rest of the How would she do that then? How much would seven five come to? Seven five Ps. Seven five Ps Let's have a look at number five If she did something like this how much has she got to start to give. One seventy five One seventy five. okay. Now she's going to give five Ps. Seven five Ps. You've got a lot of really useful money here haven't you so you can you can work these out. Two three four five six seven Four five six seven. Right seven five Ps how much will that come to? Erm ten twenty thirty five. Thirty five okay. Thirty five so we better take thirty five off cos she's already got thirty five hasn't she? Mm. And how much would she have left if you took thirty five pence away away from one pound seventy five. How much would she have? Er You can just do it like a normal take away. It's thirty five From take away Forget about the pound thi seventy five take away the thirty five Seventy five take away thirty five. So she'd have one pound forty left so that's in five Ps. In five Ps thirty five. So you got one forty left how many tens would she need to make one forty? One forty erm One pound forty. Fourteen. Good yeah fourteen great. Very good okay that's good. So that's how to do that one we could have a look at that. Mm a week later than Christmas Day Do you know about angles making right angles? Mm No. You maybe you've done it but have forgotten. That's a right angle when it's like a like the corner of a square. A right angle ninety degrees. And have you done area and perimeter? How long is it all the way round something? Erm No possibly not doesn't matter. I'm not too sure. Now we'll we'll we'll concentrate on some see with maths you have to do things in certain Are we supposed to be doing maths today are we supposed to be doing English? I'm not too sure. Well we'll conc best to concentrate on the just on the fractions. Erm But you said you were gonna bring me some erm these special tables. Did I ooh well I haven't I'm sorry to say. Erm right er now definitely by the time I see you next time if not before erm I'll get them okay. If I've got to print them off from my computer and the computer's er not exactly in bits but it's just taken apart a bit at the moment so I need to put it back together again and print them off. So I'll do that very soon. Now let's sort you out some fractions. So before adding or taking away fractions okay. Before adding or taking away we get the number on the bottom to be the same right. And how do we do that? It's easy enough saying it isn't it. Okay erm I'm just trying to think what I'm doing later. I'll get those fractions those multiplication tables printed out and get you a copy in the next few days okay. The bottom's the same on both fractions. How d how do we make sure that the number on the bottom is the same? Erm How did we do it when we doing some of these back here? For example when we had erm When you were doing these tricky things. Like a third take away a quarter how did you do it? Three You put the fractions Okay so you change the fractions you change the one third and you change the one quarter into into what? Twelfths. Into twelfths in this case you change them into twelfths to see how many twelfths it would be. And erm with these you changed them both into sixths didn't you could have changed them both into twelfths and it would have work but then we'll get an answer that needs we would have got sixth twelfths well it still comes to a half. But it's just a bit more awkward to work out what six twelfths is maybe. So I'll give you some here to do. Some of them will be the same ones that we've already done so don't look at the don't look at these just try them on your own try and remember how you did them. And if you get stuck go back and have a look how you did them here. So I'm going to do erm a half add a third okay and a third add a quarter and a half take away a third okay and I'll give you another one to do How about this one. I'll leave you to sort out you're own own way of doing this. Two thirds add a quarter. Okay? I haven't told you how to d I've told you how to change one third we've looked at that haven't we and we and we've worked out sort of how many twelfths would be in it and things like that. I'll leave you to work out on your own. Don't worry if you can't do it if you can't any of these any of these exercises that I give you by the way it's not like homework it's just for you to play with them to get the do them at your own pace. So that you feel happy with it so that you, Oh yeah now I understand what he's talking about. Now I can do it myself. That's the idea cos when it's the exam I can't come in and do it for you or show you how to do it. You'll be doing it on your own so that's what I want you to do to get so you can do it on your own. Try those erm and with the with the coins what I'd like you to do now is not find out all the things that add up to twelve. Find out what numbers times what other numbers would make twelve. So can you g tell me any numbers that you could any two numbers you could multiply together to make twelve. Er erm eleven and one. Those are adding. Oh. Okay good yeah they are that's good that would add together to make twelve but how about some number times another number. One times twelve. Good okay so twelve we could have one times twelve right. Five times two. well let's see. Let's get twelve coins this is the easy way to do it I think. One two three one two three four five six seven eight nine ten how many more do we need? Er. I want twelve I've got ten there. How many more do I need three Another I've got ten Two. eleven Twelve. twelve okay so it needs another two. So there we are we've got one lot of twelve or we might be able to have two lots of what see what you can make with it for two lots. Two lots of mm. Two lots of five. Six. Okay so we could make one lot of twelve we could make two lots of six. See if you could make three lots of something. Three lots of four. Aha. Three lot of four. Okay and could you make four lots of something. You've already you're doing very good . Four lots of three. Four lots of three I haven't got time to write that down that was very quick. Good four lots of three and could you make five lots of anything? Erm No. No. You could make five lots of two but you'd two left over so it wouldn't go evenly okay. So you can't do five lots okay that was you that was trying five that didn't work so try six what will happen there. Er So you're going you got okay now we've got six lots of Twos. Two okay six lots of two. Six times two. And then you could have twelve lots of One. Twelve lots of one. Right so I think that you've done twelve right just now showed me how to do it. I want you to do the same for twenty four and you won't get it all on one line there'll be a lot of them and then try it for thirty six and when you're really happy with twenty four when you're happy with twelve and you can write all those out quite happily without looking at this try twenty four see if you know see if threes'll go fives'll go and sevens and everything else. And then try it with thirty six. And then I don't particularly want you to start yet but if you do get time or if you're just interested and you don't want to stop and you want to keep going try it with sixty. Sixty pennies put them out. Make sure you don't put them straight on the table though. Newspaper's fine cos you can slide them about or a towel like this. Now of what we've been doing today with fractions was there any of it that you're not quite sure of and you think, But could you just tell me about that bit again. Er How do you feel about it you feel fairly happy with it? Yeah. We've done a lot today you know we've done a lot of things about fractions and a lot of things about adding, subtracting,times, sharing quite a lot. So if you don't remember all of it. Don't worry and always ask me if there's something that we did last time and I start ta I start talking about it as though you know and you're if you think, Ooh I'm I'm not quite sure what he means by that. always ask me never never just let it go and think, Oh well perhaps I'll understand it later. Cos you've probably found that already with maths haven't you that once there's a little bit you don't understand they start putting more and more on that you need to know that little bit for and you you don't know it and you're getting more and more lost and then it gets a bit late then . It was only it was only that erm you know erm when you said the sixty pen pence it was the one that was the only one that I seemed to get stuck on. Okay well I'm not too bothered about adding those up. Adding up to ten fine, adding up to twelve that's good that's useful,adding up to sixty one don't bother doing that again better concentrating on these. Seeing what things'll multiply together to make twenty four thirty six and sixty. Okay.the don't look at these just try them Yeah. So it's just coming up to five to that's okay. Erm now would you like to write something for me. Yeah if you can write erm don't think of it as as homework you might like to writ it in book or something. When when I've when I've gone if you just write about what you think about the lessons. Whether it's a good idea me coming here, what are the good things, what are the bad things. What are the things that you'd like it if it was a bit different you'd like it better if it was a bit more of this and not so much of something else in it okay. Mm. Erm and I'll have a look at that and see how your how your writing's doing. Okay. Okay is that alright. Oh hi. So And don't forget to put the good things and what are the very good things. the things that could be better and the things you'd like more or less of. I think there could be more of Erm what thin would you like to do more fractions, more counting or you you think whatever it is that you'd like to do more of or is there anything you think we do too much of and we don't you don't want to do as much. Oh dear. those. Now what did you think about this lesson was it a bit boring at some time or you think, Oh or did it go too quickly No. You'd like to spend a bit more time doing things and not do so much in one go? Er it went alright really. Okay. If you think we're doing too much you can sort of say, Ooh hang on. Because I want to do as much as we can during the holiday so that when you go back you you're up there with the rest of them okay. Erm if I try and do too much you might see you might be forgetting as much as you learn mightn't you and that's why it's important for you to do these do these exercises. Okay erm if you want to call your mum I'll just Yeah. show her what you're doing there so that Okay. she'll know as well. Or you can show her okay. Hi. Hi I'll just just show you what er well Kerry'll 'll show you she knows what er what we're what you're going to do over the next day or so don't you. Yeah. We're just playing with twelve pennies and she's making patterns out of them to make multiplication tables Mhm. really. So she's trying to find out well the ones these are all one that Kerry suggested. Okay you could have one set one set of twelve. Okay that's how you could make up twelve coins one set of twelve. And then what's the next thing you tried? You tried putting them in two two sets of how many. So she tries that and what does that make? Erm two sets of six. Okay and then carry on Okay so now you've made three sets of Sets of four. Three sets of four okay and you can just turn that round and look at it that way now. You've got four sets of three . Four sets of Okay and you made six sets of Twelve. Six sets of two. Right didn't you. Erm So that's it just go along the bottom one two three four five six okay, And then you won't move those and what can you do there? That's it six sets of two. And you tried five didn't you Yeah. tried sets of five but it nearly but you two two left over so that's no good Mm. It doesn't go exactly into twelve. So five won't go. But we can find all the things that'll go into twelve. Well Kerry's going to do the same thing for twenty four. And then when she's really happy with twelve and with twenty four she's going to try thirty six all the different sets of one times another to make thirty six. Mhm. And sixty is a bit much I think but if she you know if you want to go on and you're really happy you can do anything you like with these thirty six and twenty four no problem there then go on and try sixty. You'll need a as I said put er put some paper on the or some newspaper won't scratch it. Oh she'll be in the kitchen Yeah Okay kitchen table's ideal for sorting your money out on. So try that and the fractions. Be best cut out with a sharp knife that something like a Stanley knife Yeah. rather than scissors. But just cut it out and then she'll just use the back and she'll play about with some helping to get some answers to these fractions Mhm. and then just generally play with it say, Oh I wonder what would happen if you put two thirds together, how many twelfths would that be or what about if you had a third and you wanted to take a quarter away, if you cut a quarter off it. What would you have left? A twelfth. Brilliant yes really good. She's really coming on well Mm. with the fractions. You you like them don't you cos you're understanding them now. It's all about understanding if you understand something you can like it. Yeah. But if you don't understand it and you're lost you just get to hate it you think, Oh no I can't stand that. So it's it's getting but you're coming along very well aren't you. I didn't bring the erm multiplication table that I promised either so I was late and I didn't bring that. I'll go and stand in the corner I think for being naughty. But erm I'll get that to you in the next couple of days or so. Now what did we say about the next lesson? We wanted to g get one or two in during the holiday really I think Mm. what you see the idea is to get Kerry getting as much benefit from school as possible so you're not having to pay me No. to do the lessons that Kerry is understanding it so she can. Once she's c more or less caught up doesn't have to exactly catch up just have some idea of the basic stuff that they're talking about Yeah. and then you can just when the teacher says that, you know what questions to ask at least. if you don't if you're just lost you feel daft don't you . So you don't ask and you get sort of so that you understand less and less and eventually you think, Oh I don't feel like going to school today it's fractions again. Yeah so just to get you so you understand about fractions, you know what's going on and you can ask intelligent questions and your teacher'll think, Oh she knows what she's talking about. She doesn't know how to do it but she knows what to ask and how to get there. So erm where are we bank holiday Monday next week I think you probably probably got enough to play with Tuesday. Brian has agreed to join us as Edinburgh Theatre Manager and David hopefully will be but the tape, erm for Brian's benefit is, is the first feature film that's been made available on video with an audio description built into it Mhm so it is erm something of a step forward, erm we've had material in the past which you may have seen which was recorded from the telly, a couple of years ago in nineteen ninety Mhm erm what was that woman called from America? Can't remember but people from Boston in, in Margaret No Lori Oh yeah from the Description Video Services in Boston, there's a lot of described telly in America Mhm er and we obviously are trying to push S T V and B B C into this as well, but you know and film, we're talking to film people as well erm, but this is the first er feature film that's been done so Marcus who normally from R N I B in London, I think it's my opposite number, the answer erm is quite excited about it. So You want to see it press the button you see past me? Yes I can, thanks no you can't What it is, it's a formula extract which is repeated twice, once with the soundtrack, well once without, once as, as a sort of regular broadcast Mhm then with the description on it With and without With and without, yes as they say Before and after Before and after So what happens in the finished article? Well what it is, it's going to be available as a video cassette with the soundtrack Mhm in it Mhm as a whole film, which I'm gonna want a copy It's going on sale in September I think it's going on sale in a couple of weeks Eighteenth of September, yes erm I put it on, I've suggested people put it on the Christmas list, I think it would be a good Christmas present First video movie on the description, yes released Hear My Song, twenty six pounds No three for twenty six Three for twenty six pounds, and ten pounds is a hell of a subsidized price ten pounds or three for twenty six Mm at the end of September Mm What do you think about it? I like it Right is that actually running Jane? Oh well no, it doesn't seem to be. It is running but it's not showing us anything which is interesting thing's plugged in Is that channel nine on the telly? Channel nine on the telly, mhm, there's the right one that's all in the right places don't know We're not going to see it after all It doesn't look like it strange isn't it? There must be nothing on it. Try spinning it forward a bit, might be It's a very short thing really isn't it? Mm Ah No, that's not it No it's not, it's definitely channel nine that's the video channel Ah That's not it either It isn't anything Mm It's not tuning at anything, oh Oh well, we'll, we'll tell you about it instead Sorry about that Miracles of technology Erm, it's I'll give you a selection of songs from it Erm, is it a new film? No it must be a year old or something Right Yes , it's it's comparatively new Right, because I knew nothing about it, yeah, so it seems to have been quite a reasonable picture, you know, it's quite well as a film Mhm As you probably know it's presently showing at the cinema, and is a story of an Irish tenor Joseph Locke You must've got an extra sheet than me because one of the things I was moaning about this morning erm, maybe you've got a different Do you want a copy of this? maybe you've got a different letter than the one I've got Maybe you have a that is the letter because and that is what is audio description on video, audio description and Hear My Song Oh it's that song, yes, right, I remember that one coming on other uses of audio description Yeah television, cinema, theatre Yes I've got the information sheets You've got that I got a different letter from this Right I've got a letter from cos that's the one Marcus rather than, from than this And you've got all these Yeah things, yeah? Yeah Roster and things Yeah. So I'm not quite sure what the long term connection with er talk is Right and I'm not entirely sure, Marcus did phone me and say, at one point, when he was making up the mailing list, he's had three hundred copies of that made of the extract and he was kind of you know, sniffing around for who to send them to Right erm, so you, that's when he said he would send one to me, but he's obviously sent them to, and Cath's, Cath's had one Has Cath had one? Maybe she'd pass it on to me Erm, erm I would like to think so there's one at, there is one at and there is also one erm Yes because it would of come to from that's where mine came from But I'm not sure, I, Doug has got one, Doug is my chairman, chairman of the Arts Committee erm Mhm I'm not quite sure why he's got one apart from, unless Marcus just decided to send one to him, but he's sent it to home, so I'm not quite sure what Marcus is mailing It's voluntary organization so your yeah Mhm it could be that but it would've normally come to us here you see at yes anyway Duncan Anyway Duncan phoned me on Friday about something else and said oh have we had this tape, so I said yes, and he said have you seen it and I said no not yet, and he said, erm but he thought it was quite good erm It's Cathy aye just bring Alright, hello Cath Hi there Sorry I've been to disability Scotland Oh right There's a nice swivel chair there Oh it's smashing feel particularly voluble No important Important that was lovely I haven't seen Have you not? Do you want to take your coat off? Now, can I introduce you to, I don't think you two have met. We've, we've met before at yes you have met? Yeah You have Do you want to take your coat off then? Yes I'm fine, I'll just leave it here, that's right. You sure it's alright there, do you want some coffee? Oh that would be wonderful if it's not gonna cause, oh yes that's And I should Do you get a copy of yeah And I should explain, the microphone in the middle of the table and the man over here with the tape recorder is tape recording this meeting Oh no no So everybody in the world knows you were late so I wasn't really late, it was in the wrong place. So the purpose of the, of the tape recorder is Yes is to do with the Milk and sugar Cath? development of dictionaries and the use, the use of English so we have been assured in, that, that, anything we say will be divorced from apparently all proper names and phone numbers will be bleeped out That's okay, no problem at all so we're to ignore it . What we were just saying Cath was, we was just trying to look at the, the tape that's just come from Marcus, the erm the film and Have you seen it? It won't We haven't we were just gonna look at it but Jane has a technical knock, not speaking to each other It won't show, no It's awful Is it? And now, well I said what I was just gonna say was that Doug, Doug had phoned me on Friday and said had I seen it and I said no and he said it's quite good he said it's four minutes without the description, then four minutes with it and, and I thought that doesn't concur with what Cath said to me on Thursday afternoon The technology that's not fair, the technology is good and, and very obviously gets over what it's supposed to get over, that's terrific, but wait till you see this subject matter But the actual but the actual extract as, as Cath said to me the other day, you know she felt sure and I said to her you know in a full length film they could've actually chosen a better moment Aha because and we were talking mainly, an elderly, a female elderly client group, let's be honest you know, in terms of blind you know, and just wait till you see it, it's lovely Erm and I think it's to a couple of colleagues No it's not working I think it's you know this morning when, where we all watched it for the first time together and as, as Richard said you know, I'm, I'm squeamish about going to the dentist, so, and it cos er, it's basically there's a scene in the bar where they're pulling this guy's tooth out which is, is not sort of, you know Richard you know Could of been a cataract operation, should of been Could of been, yes grateful for it. So you know that, that as you know Richard said you know good idea, could make quite a few people, so I think Marcus, if, if Marcus chose that moment he, he really Chose the wrong moment could of chose a better one, erm having said that the second part there's two parts, there's this scene in the pub and then there's this er scene on the cliff top and the second scene one's a bit better Right Oh right The thing, two things that struck me about it, one of which is that we were not talking about a separate soundtrack, the actual existing soundtrack of the film is merged with the audio description Right is what we've talked about in films and T V is erm having erm I suppose the integrity if that's the right word of the existing film or programme standing alone and then on separate soundtrack like in the theatre Mm you know, there's a description which you can choose to listen to or not Mhm with this film it will be, you know, compulsory, you won't be able to make that choice, erm and the other one, the other thing that struck me just from one of the particular extracts of, of people standing on top of this cliff, erm is, is the way that the importance of, in something like a film where it's, you know, it's done for good, you know the importance of having an actual creative writer Yes doing the writing to get over in the description cos they talk about the swirling sea Mhm there's one or two moments like that, which is possibly a different, you know, if, if, you cou cou you know, putting it on, on to tape Mhm for life, you know, Mhm it's that kind of thing, rather than I suppose to the theatre way, you know, you, you react much more spontaneously, so I thought that was an interesting thing that thing I just thought jumped off the page, do. I thought it was interesting as well that the stuff I got from the I and R V with it, was a lot about audio description and the tape and how much it cost and how wonderful this was and it was the first time it had ever been done, but there was nothing, as is always the case, there was nothing actually about what the film was about, it was full of sort of, this is the first time it's done, but nothing about sort of this is the film about, about this, this is what the story's about, you know. It's, it is very akin to that one sort of you know, well here's the audio description you better like it. I mean I suppose it is the first time, it's the only film of its type, you, you know what I'm getting at, it's exactly the same thing we, we tried very hard to avoid in the access guide, actually being able to say what instead of just saying you know Mhm the Lyceum Theatre is fully wheelchair accessible, we actually describe what the theatre, what kind of plays it shows Yes erm, you know why it's different from the Travellers which is round the corner Mhm you know, erm what the difference in the work that, that, that they do. I don't, I'm not quite sure of erm that's, I think that's a different thing. Sometimes say people say to me can you give us of the play, what's it about, cos we don't know what it's, you know about, before we come, which is fair enough, erm, that's very often sighted people don't know Mm Mm Mm quite so if blind people are trying to be on the same level terms with sighted people, then, you know, why should they get an Mhm I'm, I'm not quite sure, I mean I'd give an if there's one available Mhm for instance there's a nice one for Mhm so I gave that and there was nothing, this year the citizens have nothing at their we put people off going, so I'm not saying anything about it, not erm, I don't, I mean, I don't, I could say what the story of Major Barbara is, but then it's not in any of the printed pamphlets for sighted people, therefore, should I, what should I do Cathy I don't know No I, I don't I really don't, I think it, in it with yes it's the quality of access Exactly it's not some sort of different, erm, sort of, it shouldn't be a different scenario for Well that's what I feel, yes. and er, very often if you knew somewhat, you know, obviously modern it would, it would spoil it because you're there You would, that's right to see what it's like really and to feel what it's like and to, no I don't think we should do. Some things are very difficult to actually work out what the as well you can I mean You're right take Marilyn last year, we didn't know what was gonna happen until it happened and then it happened different every night as well I suppose if there's something in the programme then they should I think that's what I'm talking about really actually is that, I mean if you're, if you're selling a film like you know if, if It's a marketing line it is a marketing line Yes, it is a marketing line, right as saying, you know, this is a story about this and that and you look at that But then I would read it, so if I was in the theatre I would read that so I would know that Yeah before the play started Mhm so blind people should be in the same position there shouldn't they? Should, yeah, yeah Yes So I mean if there is, if there are two lines saying this is the story of That's right, yes Yes That's but then we do that at the start anyway Yes you do that but it's beforehand eh, for instance they have little flowers that tells the story of what's, what the plays about and I think it's fair enough to read that, because a sighted person would go in and pick it up Would be reading it and say what is this? That's an interesting actually side chart, I mean this is completely off the agenda and things, but erm, I just had some information up from er, from RADA and er That's the dates for everything, I see, sorry One of the things the group in Wolverhampton I think at the Theatre Royal there is, is doing both audio descriptions by sign language I think and one of the things they've, they, they do is meet in the bar Mm like half an hour before the show Mm and someone, I don't know whether it's the director, or someone actually says this play is, is the half hour, quarter of an hour, chat say, this is what the play's about Mhm you know and the precis you know and I thought that was interesting that they did that, because it's not something we'd thought of really doing, ever No, no erm programme notes yes, but not the actual sort of this is the story of two people and this happens and that happens and that also comes in Yes Mm so I was, I was interested to see that, I mean that No I didn't, I think that was right I wouldn't of thought that were right, and all Mm, the director always, I mean After show talks yes, maybe to be able to say well what do you think of that and Oh yes that's terrific, in fact it would be fun, aha but er, no but no I don't think That's assuming that blind people wouldn't understand what they're hearing on the stage I think, well you see, this is the other thing, yes that's right that's right, yes you have to tell them what to look out for kind of thing There's enough examples of that and you read, the most peculiar thing I, I think I was telling, I don't know if I was telling Iris I have a notion I had, had it in my mind to tell you and you turned up with this blind girl to do this M C with the video team Mhm the team you know are very, very important people they announce in the room we are from video such and such, you know and just looked at me, this black man explained everything to everybody else and then the guy went over and sat down and explained it all again just blind and m I thought he was gonna start saying something different Yeah but I realize the same thing, I said erm, She can hear she, she actually has heard all this before Yeah and he said oh yes of course, you know, this you don't, you think we've all moved on in things that all Yeah were all so much so it's bad enough if they gather them in the gathering them in the barrel like, the barrel bit, but not the sort of Yeah gathering you get to explain what's going to happen, first of all you done And does she take sugar? Yes Oh would you like some more? All I was gonna say that, that if that was you Oh well if there is if that was it on the agenda that I miss because of being so early bit in the wrong place what I wanted to do is say is what about the publicity can we try and make the very best of this Mhm, mhm erm you know, because I want to do something more clear that's gonna fit in with everybody else Yeah it's an ideal opportunity Yes I mean, erm I can't do anything about it erm yet because we've only just got it, I mean what, what you thinking of? There's a bar on it until the eighteenth of September isn't there? Oh is there? Is there? Yes That's when they're, that's when they're launching the full because I mentioned it in Playback because I thought er, trouble is within a and it's just a take on, so I watched what I said, but erm, we mentioned it, we, we didn't see very much about it we just said it's coming up we'll have, we'll let you in for a full details next month so Mm the other thing we might do is erm is a at the film council and see if he can help us with, I mean it is a film after all whether he's got er particular contacts Mm anything council with media or anything Mhm erm yes that would be to say you know, this is, you know, this is arrived as it were, and the tape with full things coming in, in the middle of the month and, what, what kind of thing did you have anything in mind? No, I, really just to see what, what everyone else was doing, I mean I was thinking of is a little of which she sort of goes into every door, every door in Strathclyde, what a horrible thought, but in fact you know I thought maybe try and do something there, although I don't always get on greatly well with, with the press and publicity people and the women in press and publicity are, are sort of start phrasing once, once the if she says it to me one more time I No but, I will but I mean you know, if you put that piece of dried heather and you light it Light it, yes it does yes it does See that it does, yeah I think you know, if it's not child abuse or something you know Aha you know, straight to the heart erm, you know fifteen million children abandoned in Glasgow Green there, you know, she's really terribly taken with mind Not interested I think the answer to that is, I don't think you're in the right job really is, erm quite annoying er, yes fire fighting but worth trying that, that would certainly help, but I just wondered even if you know sort of local press, I mean presumably they are in their league for doing this Well what, what I suppose we should do is find out what R N I B is doing first, that's what we should find Yes that would be good, aha and then we can maybe then think about it, okay well I'll, I'll You come back to us then and Well yeah I mean one by one, maybe if we can hit the Herald and erm The Times and The Times is always good for replying things and the News and the Scotsman Aha and erm and erm, our friend at erm Radio The Daily Record Radio Clyde as well Mhm I'm sure the local press will be interested too if you can involve them that would be a great help I would be very grateful as there will need to be more campaigning before we see the expansionable description in the theatre and that could be Presumably R and R B would of contacted the big papers but, obviously not the small local ones to help spread the news, I enclose the material Mm, ah I mean if it was the question I mean I've got that material we've got it, I mean if it was question of sending out, I mean I could do that. Well I'll check with R and R B's press office first just to check before we sort of do things, but I mean it'll be worth, would, would it be worth approaching erm Reporting Scotland and Scotland to I think so and, and Good Morning Scotland yeah all these kind of Mhm I would definitely think so and the, the free papers I mean that's the one that goes through all the doors Yes that's the one, that's right, mhm. You know everybody gets it then. Erm right what's the name of that nice man that Good Morning Scotland who Neil Neil is he still there? I think so, yes Oh, cos he did a couple of nice bits for us in the past Mhm for I was always keeping up my sleeve for sort of things we might do as opposed to R and M U have done Mhm Yeah this is, that's a sort of reference to sort of Yes get into sort of the voluntary organization Enter the cut throat staff you know a wrap through R and R B's not a hit No erm, right okay, well I'll look into that, but I think that serves a good point, right moving back to the agenda, erm, note of meeting fifth of August, erm, anything for those of you who were there, that Cath had to run away, that was one of your crises you were having Oh god that's right because you came back again Right at the end It was still it was still, erm quite good that was worth it that day Was it oh good because that location still on the go Is it? Oh good that in, yes Mm lovely location. Erm, we're, we're using the same agenda which is why conf confusion about venue on the front cos I said to my secretary she said what, what agenda do you want, so I said just the same and so she put the same venue, we tend to alter at the meeting she said yeah Yes I think it says it's Edinburgh in the front and Glasgow on the back or the other way round Mm That's why I'm late Yes, yes She was still in Glasgow, yeah Scotland, I didn't know you were having it here Well we felt like a change Yes we felt like a change why not, come to my lovely office it's lovely isn't it, you can't have it, falls apart when it's moved So, it's the same agenda, so if everybody's okay with that note, I mean most things I think come up Mhm I should say that I, I came away from the last meeting with an enormous list of things to do, and I haven't managed to do them all, but they'll emerge as we go through, erm, developments Perth, Perth if inter interrupt me Perth haven't Perth happened, it has it's pilot, on, on August the twelfth which Iris supervised Mhm mm, you seemed to of, I mean you were a bit disappointed there were less, not so many visually impaired people were there, but they, they were sort of casting the net with council No I wasn't so much disappointed as that I was disappointed that there was only five would be sponsors and that it was we had to give out Oh right about sixty headsets and I thought well who are these people we're getting, I think a lot of them were social workers, so that's fair enough Mm but erm I mean certainly the Perth people seem well pleased and Mm somewhere I think I managed to remember to bring erm, their erm, their minutes from the meeting I didn't go to last week, but you did erm, erm, no I haven't got them, erm, and they've agreed to go ahead in conjunction with I mean everything is kind of steaming up It is going that is erm the monies Well they're, they are still waiting for, for confirmation on money, but they've got quite a lot in the kitty already Mm because the, the society up in Perth, the Perth belong to a society and had this gigantic legacy and they'd agreed to spend it a miniature amount of it on audio description, so from that point of view there they, was sort of fairly well down the line with the money anyway they, they had still giving money into it erm, they were approaching the District Council weren't they? Yes The Common Good Fund and they, they had you know all I mean you know they had all feelers out for all, all the things, so there are a couple of dates which came up in the last meeting erm for further pilots and then the intention is to just go ahead from Well they, they said at that meeting they'd hoped to have their system for the next one which is the seventeenth October Oh right Mm because I didn't know whether I was going to have to bring ours up or not because I That's right, yeah because obviously the radio system was Yes used on, on, on the twelfth of August, erm So they're going to have their er infra red so they hoped to have the infra red in by then, yeah They hope to have it by then Yeah, I mean what was nice in, in a way was that er I couldn't go to the last meeting I wasn't well, I had a cold er, what was nice in a way was that David who's the general manager and the general manager from Pitlochry had come in, I mean in a way it was a classic case It was good of having sort of help set something off and then tiptoe away which has been one of my functions, that, that, that it can happen Yes Yes It sounds good and I felt quite happy especially with a bow tie on, you know, it had been, it had gone you know and in a way we sort of could almost sort of Can let go of it let go of it Mhm now, so it's, I was well pleased with that In saying that go over, erm obviously I'm all for that, but in terms of sort of holding on to what they're doing I just had written down to mention that you know, we didn't have some sort of mechanism to, to share you know Yes either up to information on what's happening all this, you know and I'll I know we'll come on to Yes absolutely that point later Mhm but we must sort of all pull in together as a situation in Scotland now that which really concerns me and I'd away because it's wonderful to have another theatre, but, erm it's just a bit maybe trying to draw up some method to do that. Is there sort of a team leader of volunteers emerged up there? Or is that, is that still theatre that's doing that? Not yet I think at the moment they're organizing it, yes Yeah, or is it the Society for the Blind or is it sort of between the two? No it's the theatre It's the theatre is it? I think Diane's organizing it all right Good, that's good it's a theatre Very good it's a theatre She can keep doing it Mm erm No it all depends whether they want to do it or not Yes sometimes it's easier if you find to pass it on to someone else Oh yes, I mean I just wouldn't of got anywhere with it Oh aye, no, no but I'm hoping to pass Glasgow onto someone else It's quite interesting that it's the theatre that's doing it, I was on a course last week in Sussex, a management course and there was Bradford theatre companies were there erm, from all the different theatres and they, they organize it and they organize the volunteers Oh really? That is the, that is the they do the training now How, do they do that through a friends group or? Yes, friends of the theatre Right it's quite interesting that they do it Yes Well it's a perfect opportunity for friends to That's difficult in the setting up stages Mm you know, it's whoever takes it on really I think that's we all, we all visualize it Ours is always I mean the closer it is to the theatre the better Yeah the contacts are and everything and I think that's much better if it can be got down to that eventually And you're getting people who are interested in the theatre Mhm Yeah Oh, right from the beginning when we talk to citizens about using their friends of the theatre I nearly fell about you know And yet I have three, I have three good friends of the theatre involved Do you, ah, mm now one of them's the chairman Yes, yes We have friends of the Lyceum involved There is historically, I mean it maybe the same at the as it is at the Lyceum that there is kind of historically a certain amount of, not exactly friction, but I mean something that has That is sort of got kind of an odd relationship between the friends Yes and the management literally Mm I suppose they see themselves as I suspect it's the same in the Yeah The sort of suffering chart Yeah Aye, aye But I think it's an ideal thing cos people who remember the friends are always interested in the theatre Yes and that's such a good start And be able to pass on the enthusiasm Yes, Mhm , yeah And we also, I mean it was also felt that you know the friends mechanism of the newsletters and get together Mhm yes you know Mhm is a way of getting erm Mhm, spread the word I don't know maybe it may just be come down to sort of the individual theatres I suppose Mhm that's the thing It was quite interesting that all of the theatres and all the theatre staff who were there knew all about audio description Yeah Really? because I spoke to them all about it Yes, mhm and it was happening in all of their theatres Mm it's just good it's interesting isn't it? that's good , mhm Yeah Mhm so, mm so anyway it's apparently it's kind a way in one of the things that Dough who was there, er with Iris on, on, on the twelfth er spotted was that one of his ex students who now works in educational technology or something equally grand in the Northern College in Dundee is one of the volunteers who have come forward Oh Mm and with her kind of background in, in writing up training package, packages and things Mm That's good he has, he's not asked her, he's nobbled her to actually get involved in helping with the compilation of the training package Training package, mm once she's sort of you know I mean obviously once she's been through the learning process herself, so Doug came away feeling quite pleased that he'd made that contact and he also sort of made one or two, he, he had one or two wise observations I think about the evening, he made one or two new contacts himself and the suggestion and things, he spoke very well about it, at our committee on our last meeting last week Oh good so eliminate er, it raves about how successful Good the system is. So that was the sort of a contact for training now. Good, manage to get the equipment back that the sighted people ran off with? No, erm, well it's, it's not just, they didn't have, it wasn't too much, there's one ear piece which has come off, but I discovered at, my last, I sent myself last week at the assembly hall to how that could happen Ah because it happened to me, you know the little soft bit? Yes Oh right I was wearing I had the, the stethoscope behind my neck and I took it off for something, I was holding it up to try and get a better and I discovered that one was missing Was missing and I thought ooh where is it Oh, all I started to look around and I put my hand up and it was lying at the back of my collar Mhm so it must come off very easily must come off very easily somehow so it, so I'm tempted , not to hand, you know, to take them all off before handing them out Yes if I'm giving a single ear piece, cos they won't be quiet, otherwise they will get lost that way Mhm very, very simple Are they terribly expensive? Shouldn't think so, I don't know, I haven't managed to contact, to find out I was just wondering whether it's something, you know, you buy a Yes Mhm probably aren't that expensive What happens about hygiene with those as well? Well in, you could clean them with stuff is You can clean them? There's, the thing is they're terribly expensive if you, if you don't exactly have any money Yeah which is what the position at the moment Aha, I see mm aha, and we will have to think about some sort of contingency fund around to, for replacements whatever that's part of the bigger discussion Mm Well, anyway, yes, sorry, that was Well Well not for me, no Oh no repairs and renewals are typical are a lot Mm What's the latest from Glasgow then? The latest from Glasgow is the system is starting up again, we're doing the first one on the twenty fourth of September erm, the Theatre Royal had, we're doing three Are these, these dates, erm sixth November, fourteenth November? Yes, sixth November, fourteenth November, what's that? And the fifth of December, that's the Theatre Royal for Witches It's sixteenth, I didn't think afterwards, I didn't bring it, wait a minute, sixth, yes, sixth is the Witches cos that's a matinee and ten thirty in the morning Ten A M Well done schools which we hope erm they all come well done that's the that's right Yes, mm Then the fifth of December is on That's all, that's oh yes the fourteen of November that's again a Saturday night, er four P M I, I should think we'd probably have good people going, Mhm Right, I haven't done anything about the at all They're trying, encouraging to Cathy to show some interest Oh yes I have which is more than I have and I laid back so that the fashion might I was coming to do all again sort of thing, you know, I mean they suddenly announced who I really I was seeing her, because I wasn't happy about the publicity, the way it had described audio description I didn't think it was good and Alex was unhappy about the way they were describing some language things, which cos they're not doing erm, and we just went in and he just said right just, erm well I've kept you some seats for a performance on the sixteenth of September, this was about the Oh aye, twenty fourth of August or something Aha, you know, since a week goes on and erm and that's it, aha, not ring me up and say hi there we're thinking of So if you hadn't happened to of gone you know Aha, so if I hadn't haven't, goodness knows, aha, so I mean we, I had a chat with Iris obviously, but it just wasn't on, with other commitments and different things, it was in the afternoon Apart from anything else, we, we don't just go to the theatre we have, we really tend to wait to be invited Mhm erm, now, and erm, anyway I refused to say anything about the until I could see physically they have rebuilt it, I mean I won't even say yes we'll do it if you do it, I'm going to say you do it and we'll give you a description, because there's no way I'm going to go into that position again, no Yeah, just to, to fill Brian in with that. They had a great deal of trouble Mm we hadn't done anything since they rebuilt the St Paul's Theatre Mm and they assured us there would be a bit incorporated for audio description, so what it was, was half of us entrance into the lighted sound box, cut off, it was a, sort of triangular, but erm, to see out the window This is good, yeah I, standing on my tiptoes I couldn't see out the window to, to look out to the stage erm, and there was a huge step up, it was about that, which was great for people's bad backs and if you got up on that, erm then you sat on top of a very high cocktail chair, in fact one of our people had to kneel on top of the high cocktail chair, to look, to see down, over the window, down to the stage and they didn't give us a sound feed which would sound familiar Yes it does because there's no sound feed and altogether, oh yes, for the second, we, we did two plays and for the second one, they didn't produce a script No so I described them how to do it, perched on our knees, looking down, no sound without a script, it was just absolutely ludicrous Yeah, it's exactly that kind of experience that I think has got me thinking about what I was saying before you came, well before we were just doing the coffee, about the idea of actually starting to draw, well I was calling contracts, but probably it's more better called agreements, about you know, the theatre will do this, we will do that and Mhm you know, maybe even have cut-off dates so that if there isn't, you know, a script by such and such a date then we will need to figure out what these dates were, but this is why got more on board Over the to give the theatre side more of The sort of he's doing more than me Yes the sort of contracts you would, you know, I mean, you, you have with producers anyway managements Mm and, and artists and things that you know, we could maybe, I don't want to make it, you know a twenty five page Mhm you know a legal document, but I mean maybe we can reach some sort of middle ground that would be a kind of guidelines and Mhm I mean once The only thing I can see there is the different venues will obviously will have different, differences to cope with that Of course, of course , yeah Well that's something we would obviously have to sort of, I mean maybe it's something where you know I mean with the there's a regularity about it now Mhm Mm, yes which I suppose it might be difficult to see what had to be arranged for that with you there's a regularity, but you know the Trone is obviously a one-offish basis, I mean we are talking a certain one of There are certain basics , there are certain basics Yeah that if they're not there we can't do You can't do it That's right Yeah and the theatre must know when you're actually going to see the, the show Yeah because you've got to arrange seats Mm, yes That's right So if the, a script there, at least when you're there Mhm erm You see the message had obviously got through because that At the latest day he just handed me script Yeah handed me it but even then that's all you need when you turn up and forget the I said script that's enough Well I don't I said, I said I'll take it, but I said that I really don't, I mean I said it's really, I said I've explained very carefully it's Iris who had all that yes, ah, but here's a script, so you see, that had at least got through That got through but I think what we need to do is go down, well Iris and I will go down there, make arrangements will go down, go down the office And talk it through and will have, have, a look Yes have, Iris can have another look, but erm, but it's incredible because I mean that's, that really was It really was it was worse than what I thought Sorry what I was gonna suggest on that in a way this is kind of preempting something else, you know, the, the bit on the agenda for it, I always put them in its back, back together when I write, erm yes, yes maybe you and I can sit down Mhm and, and kind of erm some time one afternoon or something and kind of go through these things Mhm erm or maybe I'll consider you two down, you know as the describing side Yes the theatre side and just say Yes that might in fact be practical in Yes and then sort of come up Mhm with, with a draft if you like and then we can talk it round, you know Yes just so that we can try and work it out, so that you know if we are going to, to go to new theatres like, you know, I think the New Travellers is going to be interested Yes but obviously it's pretty busy now but you know we can go to them and say this is what we found, you know Mhm as you say it's all every theatre is going to be different, but I think there is a basics Mhm there are basics We've already been along there Have you? Oh Have they? Right, well you're already ahead of me in that case the Friday night as to look at different things I mean I knew they wouldn't be The only thing is I would hope it would be, it would be very simple and basic and nice Well that's what worries me is because I don't want to put them off either, I mean if we've got to the Oh no and said this is what you do, they would of heaved us straight out the door Yes I think that's something we would have to kind of balance up is, is that kind of making Can I no, not, not telling them what to do No this is, this is what we need and this is what you need you need and Yes, yes this is what we're giving even though yeah, yeah, coming up round to Yeah and I suppose it's always going to be up for sort of negotiation, I mean I Oh have this sort of vision Yes you know of, of maybe you know a three or four page thing with maybe different, you know different sheets and, and you know sort of say well now we need to do this, can you do that or shall we bring ours you know Oh yes, that's right yes and, and sort of when can we have a script you know and you write it down and take thirty per cent of it, or whatever you know, erm, I mean the other thing that Alex has drawn er has drawn up for sign language is this sort of flow chart er, with dates and things working backwards from the event, saying you know we need this by two weeks beforehand we need it back You've got to book in yes, yes you have and, and I was wondering if that might kind of Mhm Mhm the thing, I mean again it's, it's different, but I don't think so I think If it's any consolation they totally ignore that Yeah I don't really, I don't really think it's that that's pinning people down and I think this theatre will be slightly different. Yeah Mhm Because when some plays run for two weeks But until there's erm, that's right, I and some for three weeks Yeah and you wouldn't have the opportunity to go along No and I think, I think the difficulty with that is until you know it, as one person said to Alex in front of me ah well, we, we did exactly what you required and you never brought any audience, there was no audience, do you remember that? That was really embarrassing Did he really? Now I mean that, that can happen to us, you know that can happen to us Oh yes yes ag again that's why I don't want you to be heavy cos I don't want say to say oh you know you've brought us you know, fifteen pages and we worked our way through it and then you know at the end of the day we do all of it, yeah Where's your audiences? Yes, yeah I think we'll really have to be cautious and that one That happened on Saturday Mhm I agree that there are certain things like the sound coming into the might be able to actually see that real smart Yes but I mean other than that, I, I, I'd like to be dead cautious about that, I, I still think it's early days, I know we've made a great success, but it's early days. And we can't guarantee an, an audience, we can never guarantee an audience No and there's still some theatre peo no we can't and there's still some theatre people don't want us of people That's right can you tell me, see, there, this list, are any of these please go touring to other theatres? That's helpful for us to know because maybe even would want to take one of them for instance, that's already been described Mhm Yes, that's us moving onto Edinburgh now mate Now, oh sorry aye we did get on together I thought we might Inverness Yes Yes it might, you know I've got a potential describing Inverness I met her on the train the other day, a friend of my, he says Aye asks that And Aberdeen still very gracious Yes, he would be very good in there Aberdeen still there Oh That's January, right There's Tooting well February I suppose, by the time it goes to long Well the theory was it was even cur His Majesty's Aberdeen and er Theatre Royal, but I don't have any of them confront Mhm and we also booked Tour of the Price, Arthur Miller Right Mhm So there might be some touring in the new year? And they're touring after they've After the new year, yeah been here? after, after the shows, yeah That'll be, that'll be That's good We're gonna start to send something because we're gonna have to know that in advance because the describers have to be asked if they will be will they be able to travel? Prepared to travel Them to do it yes and that, that in a way leads me on to the next party, if we're gonna have an agreement between this group or, you know, the other group Mhm bit of this group and, and the theatre, the, the next bit is, is an agreement with the describers about who's doing what Yes, yes and you know, okay, you're gonna do this show or act three of this show on the twenty third of January and it's going to, that particularly, what not, yeah, erm Still find a describer who are prepared Or if it was to travel if we were going through to Glasgow describers to Said to do it in reverse get You could perhaps get in Edinburgh if they were all busy what's it here or er whatever or even pick up notes from Edinburgh people Yes Yeah, I mean it's that kind of co-ordination, yeah, to get that, to get that, right Today a co-ordination job that is Can I tag a wee bit onto that? how about putting smaller theatre companies like communicado targeting certain Yes on the tour well we're sort of trying an experiment Iris is trying an experiment Communicado, erm seven, eighty four, one Seven, eighty four, one Yes, yes, I mean we've, we've sort of talked about it but not done very much about it, Communicado of course is based on the Lyceum which is something which is worth knowing, erm Because at the moment I mean they're going into some venues out like the Traverse, who were thinking of doing it anyway, but Yeah, yes, I mean the situation is yes we have kind of thought about it, we haven't actually done it Right that's what it comes down to Yes I mean the experiment that's coming up is, is the one week only Mhm emergence of the Oxford stage company at the moment I personally think with these smaller of the theat of the theatre companies who spend their life touring more or less Mm it would be handy for them to get Yes their own audio describer Yes, remember who would travel with them With a portable, with a radio systems plug in Yeah That would make sense That really would because I mean they, they for the preparation it's much easier if they have somebody attached to them Yeah Of course they would they know the play, they know the er act they know the whole thing I mean this, this get mentioned somewhere along the line of, of you know maybe you know, I mean God knows how you would fund a I know but you know, whether it would be something like, you know Yes the A, one of the A S Ns would of additional responsibility, it wouldn't be absolutely every performance You can give the back up team though, you can get people to hand out leaflets and that sort of thing You can get It may well be a volunteer who's willing to be within the group within, within the group, you know, or volunteer not attached to the who's not a part, yeah the company who's willing to come Mhm, yes, yes just to go along I mean you'd need to look at the touring schedules and things Yes Maybe what we should do actually is before too long because of the planning involved is actually approach Communicado Pull, pull yeah to just say you know, what are you doing sort of Mhm yeah doing next year for a tour, what touring plans have you got Mhm and see if there's any, anything in that, cos you wouldn't be looking at doing every single village hall No No but you, you could sort of Mm try them. You see there's a difference as well Mm, if they had someone with them, it wouldn't be a problem Yeah I'm sure it's like joining the circus I wouldn't of thought you'd have a problem getting involved in it That's right, I wouldn't you'd be delighted to go for mm, well it depends on the touring pattern as well because I mean something like Communicado can sort of kind of do a week here, or a fortnight somewhere Mhm another group shown can literally doing one night stands Yes around the country, then you know, did sort of think about that, I suppose Communicado can as well is there is there a pulling o off people's schedules just now, people sort of central sort of information point There isn't No That's something that we're needing That's the problem that's one of the things we're, we're trying to identify of That's what we do need, yes a way of doing that Right but I mean certainly I think it'll be worth erm Yeah looking at the Communicado the touring idea Erm, I, I did the same thing the tag as I said earlier erm I suggested to them that perhaps as they went out so much perhaps one the company would do it, they sounded quite enthusiastic Right Yes and one of the girls who I was speaking to, oh I'd like to do that, she couldn't for the, the one that we're doing No but erm I, I mean I, they obviously didn't say oh no that'll be a rotten idea, so Oh no Mm I think they might look kindly on it Yeah, oh we should explore that as, you know, erm I mean how far have do people like Communicado and erm, yes so if we went to them sort of fairly soon we'd Yes have a good idea of what they were doing next, next summer or whatever, yeah right right, otherwise Edinburgh, erm everything is in place for the festival descriptions, well everything's in place like curtain up for the Lyceum description, last weekend Yes, yes Iris and I standing in the where were you and I thought he's not, he so what's the position in the future, is it, are we going to have to go through that every time or? No, no, no, no Or that Is that in though? Now that we know I must admit I was now that we know what the problem is, we get, we're on top of it . I was seething at your sign person because I thought we have no way of doing this for about at least two months Mm why the night before, did, was I told oh you'll need an amplifier and she's going to bring in one from her home, her own one in tomorrow morning, I thought I didn't spring it in last week, anything and then that day when I discovered it still wasn't working I just couldn't believe it Oh it's I mean I said to Shaun on a Friday night we'd better decide this, otherwise there's no point in us coming through tomorrow mate, we might as well stay at home and go to the football or something Mhm so That's it now is it? That's it Yeah, put it on top of that one there Good, great Erm Have a bit of trust I have, that was my job You're alright on the night, I'm sure you've heard that expression Quite Oh yes, as they were filming at the Lyceum last week they were, it were a good programme I can tell you Anyway that, that the last thing, the only thing is of course we've missed the, the publication date for your For the season for the season Yeah which is a pity yeah, yeah Well that's of a, one of those things. The erm, we did invite Ingy to come to this meeting just to report about the festival things, but er she, when I saw her, down at the Lyceum, she was sort of doubtful, erm just because you know Yeah it's still the first one, she's got a billion things to do, we'll obviously speak to her in the autumn, erm Mm, that's good yeah there wasn't anybody at the assembly hall for the National Theatre, well I really was disappointed in that, yeah No, no blind consumers as it were so that was a disappointment that was too bad I mean and, and I mean I turned up about half an hour before the end and, and Iris really was looking a, I, I can confirm a picture of dejection Yeah That's very sad I, I, I thought it was a great pity because I mean it's er a major thing upsetting Mm One reason I was disappointed is because what it says in these minutes, Robert's people reported they'd been speaking to the R and Abbey Leisure Service in London that had been considerable interest in the Edinburgh Festival Programme and in everything Mm, yes ranging from when I went to Leeds to that seminar and there were people excited about the Festival and you know, two weeks before the Festival speaking to Jane in London, said oh we've had a lot of you know and I said well I'll get back to you in September and tell you Yes and she said well I'll be able to tell you how many enquiries we've had and so you know, you were expecting something you know Nobody's there, mm Well at the Lyceum, there was one lady from the South Mhm about Yes I remember you saying about that they, just the others are all local, so at least there was one Festival visitor proper That's good yes erm and I know they sold about five or six tickets at least next week Next week for this the Church Hill, but I don't know where they're from, I don't know if they're local people or from the Festival Aha, I wonder how One thing that, that we did spend, I mean, I don't know the Festival seems to come in an awful rush this time I suppose cos, cos Oh it does my holiday was later as usual and longer so, you know and there was a couple of other things not related to this which I'd thought of doing and it's sort of they evaporated, but erm, we did spend time talking to Ingy earlier in the year, you know, about publicity and I gave her lists of well such as things obvious things like Playback and Newsbeat Yes and Newsbeat dinner piece and I expect you did as well, erm but you know, she was, she was talking about contacts and things like Good Morning Scotland and all of the rest of it and I don't think any of that kind of happened Mm Mm er I mean I'm not sort of trying to point the finger at her, but No, because it may well be that they said oh we've covered audio description before, nothing new Yeah Yeah, that's right we were covering some this morning or something Yes Yes exactly and events overtakes things and, and, and whatnot. I tell you what I was quite disappointed as that, there was no, didn't seem to be a couple of stair up in the box office either the Lyceum I could see or there's not that there's On the day assembly hall has a, has a thing, but Yeah erm no I mean it's, it's good to see them on they were, they, the programme on, on the fourth of November will be audio described Yeah Yes Mhm for the visually impaired, you know that kind of thing somebody booking their seat will say oh Aunty Mary might be interested. Aha That was the other thing I think about the Festival programme which I think was a bit embarrassed about is the fact that all that information is in such teeny tiny writing That's right Yes, yes which is difficult for me with my Yes Difficult for anybody okay sight to read you know, my, my recently tested sight, and erm Mhm oh, er let alone anybody Most Yes he went and got glasses, yeah As a result of your training er Yeah Really, session But that's, that, that, that is the bigger thing So you know, the sight's something else, I don't I don't know, what I'm wondering is what, you know, what, you know Can do it what Ingy is gonna come back you know Yes, er in a month's time and whenever she comes Yes Mhm to, to, to a meeting for the group for next year, you know, she's gonna say well you know we tried it and nobody came That's right we're not doing it again, I don't think she will, but I mean I think we need to be sort of positive about how we are going to sort of Well I, I erm build it on put a, put a very strong piece in Playback this month about audio description and seeing that, it, you know, how disappointed it is for how, I've, I've explained how much work we've put into er, er Yeah, mm description and that if people er don't take it up Yes then it's likely to fall apart, because the volunteers are going to give up Mm That's right they'll, they'll see us, a play four times and then go along and no one comes to hear the description That's right Mm so, erm I hope that, that might make few people visit, but then as I said also in it, you can't force people to go to the theatre if they don't want to Oh you can't you, you, that's what we we're saying this morning That's right Mm you can take you know horses to water, but Horses to water, mm you can't get them to drink it Is that Yeah, but I think some works one is transport and I said this before to you Oh yes, very much, yes and this is the difficulty, I'll, I'll take this away and see what I can do with it, I mean there's that East End thing, you know, that arts erm you know Yes, one and the shop mobilities well you know Mhm and I'm just wondering if maybe, maybe we will just have to do a wee bit of work and try and get something on the go to see if somebody will Yes accompany, I don't know that I can offer transport because it's not a very easy thing you know, and we need to try and do, but Well we now have started this concert and theatre goers group in Glasgow and, and the Yes, well this is what I was going to Yes, that's the other side of the that's right They've actually started now, they've got a committee, of course I don't know how long it will take them to get going for them, but Yes, oh God you see they likely can get a grant from the Society now that they're Exactly a proper group and er I don't know how they can arrange transport, but I think that's what they're planning to do. Well it's, do you still have that It'll be worth Mm transport subsidy schemes, is that still work? Mhm Oh, oh, oh This is some well That's right, yes Mhm how does it work? Does it still Erm, you've got to go over a certain size to get a portion of the fee of paid Mm Mm Mm this is from the Arts Council? I see, that, that, it's very complicated for blind people It's complicated for anybody Anybody Absolutely ludicrous, impossible to try and organize Ah but then We've got groups of volunteers who take people to theatre as well as art Ah, ha I think the other side of the Festival as well, you mustn't lose track of, is that the Festival Yes, it's, I could of brought people through, I should of been able to the Festival also chooses its own plays, I mean the Festival choose those three plays and whether they were the best three plays to choose Mm, yes, aha you know, but you would of thought the National Theatre, but I mean it's, you know I know the Spanish play in England Yeah but you know Mhm I don't know, it's difficult to know Well I don't know, I feel quite guilty because I think maybe I could of done a bit more, but I'll certainly take it away now and I'll have a chat with some of the Mhm maybe meet Alan together rather than separately Yes cos he doesn't, you know, original Council but, but I think we should of, could look inside and I I think then could of brought a group of people Yes, I think the other side of Iris's point about the theatre and concert goers club, is quite an interesting idea Yes to, to run alongside audio description groups, you could be Mhm and this is something I could change my hands slightly about and come back and speak to you Mhm for example about, because you know one of the things that I've thought about for quite a long time is the idea of encouraging voluntary organizations, concerned with the disability to get more interested in the arts and that's obviously what Mecca is Mhm I thought of Hugh being up in Perth Mhm Yeah er with the Spastics is Mhm taking people to arts events and getting things that way Mhm so it's not a way of reaching people with a disability and, you know, that might be that kind of Mhm you're talking about, might be one way of getting I feel sure if you offer to pick people up and take them home again, you'll be, you'll be swamped you won't know what to do with them Absolutely it makes such a lot of difference that's right, yes It really does and can you blame people No I mean I've just come through there and I had a car today and a girl was telling me her father erm opened his door last week er cataract and the, the wife, the granny blind too and there, the man from the water board was just going to switch off your water, just okay if I check your taps, three hundred pounds out the house Mhm Mm now, you know, they've been watching them, they know they're a blind couple, I mean blind people feel that vulnerable that you're asking them to go Mm Yes out so you just, so maybe just, maybe, I've taken a slight hard line to say no, people have got to make a wee bit effort too, but maybe in fact Maybe they do need the encouragement to go back, because to do this to get to this stage and find we're not getting our audiences then, if that's the answer we'll just have to find the solution. Mm Is there not two separate problems that we have to find them first and then the, then worrying about getting people to the theatre Well I think we can find them through Playback in cases like that Yes, yes I mean if places like that, I mean if you set, I mean she knows this If you were to press this thing if you say in Playback there is an added night performance there will be a bus you might get a phone call, if you say there's an performance Mm you know if you're in this area or that area we'll pick you up and take you home and the phone just doesn't stop ringing Yeah, there's a bus going You got, yeah Yes so I think there's a way of getting the blind people Yeah Yes I think there is but it's, it's just this all for a transport Yes Right and what you've got to be very careful, cos you can't offer them and not come up with the goods Mhm so it's a bit trying to set up a system It's got to be consistent as well Yes Yeah Mm, but I'm, I'm sure, I'm sure we can do more there, you know, Oh yes I, I did briefly manage from I think so, of mention this of transport you'll get people to, to from art link, erm to do the escort service and they, they, they do it, I mean Oh yes what he, he's moving, he's moving actually a bit more towards the East End model in Glasgow Is he? Aha er towards actually, you know, for example he is targeting West and so on, but he's moving away from being a completely response lead Mhm so that, you know they sit in the office Right and people phone up to ask being a bit more kind of pro active about it Yes Oh I see, right and his response when, you're doing the audio description as well, you know if the Society for the Blind wants to organize, I mean I mean you can organize every kind of thing why does it have to involve us? But I mean I'm sure there's a sort of, there could be a meeting of, of the sort of ways there somewhere Mhm erm If we or organize the transport will you supply the volunteers? Yeah, I mean there could be a way of sort of coming together Mm so maybe that's another area, and that's a meeting we could set up quite easily with, well with Clare who runs it, and erm Mhm with er in Glasgow and that's Mhm whose name I can't remember neither can I er can't remember Debbie I can't remember the guy's name either It doesn't matter and brought these, the bloke, so. So Right, okay Brampton is happening is it? Mhm Jane the last one we're talking of Brampton the Lyceum Yeah Is it, what is it definite, I mean as a regular or just the one off or what? As a regular monthly thing Mhm, good, that's going to happen when, when, oh sorry I was going to, one of the, the many things that I went to away last meeting with was, was the idea of, that I've missed it this time for Playback is a list, a listings kind of mechanism, so obviously this is the first one Yeah erm, I was also going to use, erm, the erm R I B kind of format that they use for their listings you know for their leisure lists Mhm just because it's the style Yeah just go and swipe that Mm Mhm erm, so it'll be useful to have the Brampton dates Dates erm I haven't got them and this, is something I would need to The, the thing is that I've been concerned for some time when it's finally helped,f f found for next month, because because we've got three things happening on one night the twenty fourth, yes, of September Yes three, three separate, I mean, if people from sometimes come through to Edinburgh Yeah people sometimes come to Glasgow and either of them could go up to Stirling Yeah That's right Three in the one night I think is just Yeah I feel guilty, I feel guilty about the Stirling one, but when I arranged It's very silly the Stirling date with the woman from the Oxford Stage Companies in time with Robert, it was the beginning of the summer in June or something like that Yes and I suppose I should of gone off the Thursday night it's difficult, cos yeah, the Thursday night was a bad night, any other night might of been better but erm I'm worried about that because we had a very bad experience in Stirling before so Yeah we really don't need it I tried to see Liz about that last week, but that's anyway, but, but Yes to get back to the scheduling I mean that's something we obviously need to think about Mhm I've got Brampton theatre dates, I'll copy that, you can have that if you want Oh great Erm what is it a Thursday as well? No Saturday matinee Oh that's terrific That is good Mhm so that's definitely on, yes That's ideal, yes So I think that's something Just a quick to think about You see I think that's, what, what is like the They don't tie up with you No, there okay , no not at all they don't tie up with you so you're alright. Yes, so we need to sort of keep on top of that one and I'm not really sure until we do get our co-ordinator how we cope Well, well we see that's, that's why and, and I did seem to go about, I don't Iris's job, but I really wanted to raise that this time, we really have to have someone very, very quickly to protest, call it what you like Yeah but we're gonna have to have somebody Just to programme it because already it's going on, you can see that. Well Do we want somebody who will just do, cos I've got, I mean I can get somebody just to do that if that's all you want done, that could be done easily Mm in braille or print or braille and print or anything you like, put all the lists together Mm Can I say I think that's like the, the door closing and the horse gone, you know Mm Before that it's the bit before that Yeah I thought unfortunately and I know and that's how much complicated bit Yes it is and that's can I phoning round everybody keeping tabs, what are you planning over the next three months, aha That's right Would it be worth having I mean I could certainly get all those lists You know what I mean, I mean that would and that, and that still necessary that's, that's as well as that Would it be worth actually having a, having a sort of a planning meeting, say you know for the first half hour of one of these meetings, the next one say that we have, you know, a wall planner, you know, a chart and Yeah you know sort of say this is But is not, I mean it's too late at the moment because both the Citizen and It's too late and the Lyceum have organized it Yeah their dates erm so happens as far as I can see only the twenty fourth of September Is appropriate Is the one I don't know about the, the after the New Year, but that's very lucky that one Cos the other problem is Christmas is one that which is coming off Christmas yeah, aha Yeah well I don't think it matters so much in with the People on same date because people are like, more likely to go to their own local pantomime aren't they? They all go don't they, yeah Mm Oh children So there is a problem about you need to watch about children this year because, erm, because of the children at the Royal Blind School Oh yes and maybe you know from Glasgow whatever the absolutely nothing they've got it, none of the audience paid things. I remember when I first went to see Mrs came over I don't think, is Mrs still there? Yes, aha She wasn't very keen No she's not very keen this was like three years ago Yeah Ah, it's not terribly blind is it? She is not This is the children will be out of school, they might even be sighted people. Romeo and Juliet I mean it couldn't of been a better thing for school children Wonderful that Yeah, that was planned that we Yes exactly Exactly and we went to the school, we told them all about it, we phoned the school, we kept saying Not even the older children? it's going to be on, nobody, nobody, not one person. Oh no, no, but I'm sure the children didn't even get Because at least all schools have wonderful to hear about it Mm That's a shame you know, because that's the ideal isn't it, remember those wee titchy things at four That's right all my staff were crying which didn't help had to keep dragging them off to the toilet, they'd never seen blind children you see they'd all seen adults it's fine to be blind to be an adult, but these wee titchy things and there's a little boy saying, you know I was really looking forward to this, this is really exciting, totally blind ooh but I mean it was so good, because remember the letter we got from the wee boy with the drawing? That's right Is this great big painting, a mass of colours, you know, but a wonderful time, cos it's the children you need Mm the children are tomorrow's audience That's right, yes That's right, yes I'm very disappointed with that if you get the children, yes, not one thing Can you not bypass Mrs ? No you're joking No Surely you can bypass if you think Seems to be our fault if it's anything to do with the Society she doesn't want to know Of course, try Jim who'd do it He's fine, he thinks it's a good idea Oh yes he'll certainly put the information he'll maybe do a job by, by putting Wouldn't bypass by woman who went to work he wouldn't bypass her He wouldn't? No I wonder if I approached her May be a way round is the parent protected teachers Very possessive Parent, yeah Yes I might approach her Maybe that's a way round direct from I'll have a go, yes, yes Yeah cos she's all Mhm Yeah, oh yes Newspeak's rubbish, but Playback's wonderful, but I think that could be true I think I might approach her direct and see how anguished we are to get younger people interested in That's a shame because children are really the key to this It's a shame They are they are the key if you can get them going while they're at school You know, I mean, this is an organization we are quite keen to get these people as well, I mean their publicity Of course Yeah Yeah machine isn't reaching them because we don't have any contacts to send That's right so perhaps I should Ring Lucy try and get a list of contacts or something to, I mean Lucy's quite happy to do it and The information we can print Yeah, the whole lot for schools, you know We can get your lists into the braille press and the workshops, I mean Mhm that would help wouldn't it, send that Maybe, maybe maybe I could do it from the theatre, would, would help Mhm A different, a different a different approach Yeah Yes, because it's not it could be a society it's not Yeah We are, we are offering this for our fund And these were the dates That's right, yeah Yeah that'll be super And get the letter all brailled and everything so it goes down to the Absolutely That's right can braille that for you no problem Yeah and, and er she would sort of say oh and here's a theatre make a wee bit effort yes that might be the answer That's right, that might be the answer for the braille press, for the school and Yes for the workshop And it's directly from the theatre What about, what, erm and that's your braille customer Mm would it be any help for Cos I mean that's what their publicity machine is there for That's right That's right, that's that can be what about brailled easily what about the pantomime, I mean I don't like to say this but there's a society in Glasgow buying tickets for the children for pantomime Yes is there a society here like to do that? Okay, welcome to 'Influencing Skills' we we always do the fancy bits of, erm, whatever, I'll change the words this time, because I'm getting a bit bored with the way we normally do it,name. Erm, what we'd like to know for for all of our sake's really, is who we are, and where we're from, what we're doing here, how long have we been doing whatever it is that we're doing here, erm where we come from, a little bit abo about our history, and any details, usual points, that you just Er, my name's David. Perhaps I ought to explain why I've got Peter here. No Peter. Maybe not. Erm, Peter's not here, okay. Erm, Peter will be here tomorrow morning, he's unfortunately been called away to er, today, and er, but he will be joining us tomorrow morning, early. So No. He'll join us tomorrow morning, he'll join us tomorrow morning. Er, he sends his apologies rather urgent to get things sorted out. Erm, so let's explain why we can help Peter. My name is David . I'm a tutor here at er at the Manor. Er, I've been now for six and a half years, I think, at the last count, er, I know I've served just over half my sentence. So you can work it out now, how old I am Erm, what I do, is I run training courses and er, they are Management Skills Courses, they are not anything to do with insurances, because I know absolutely damn all about insurance. All that I know about insurance I have gleamed from courses such as this. Erm, because before I joined the Commercial Union I came training straight from the training centre, I worked for er, Industrial Training Board, in fact, dealing with a number of Plastics Industries. I've heard all the jokes about that. And er, I used to believe that plastics was good, before I met er, disillusioned me of this. Erm, and I worked for them for about twelve or thirteen years, I suppose, trolling around sout south of England. We had reorganisations there, you know, every time they had a reorganisation a patch got bigger, and the workload got heavier, er, and in the last ten months of my period there, I did sort of thirty five thousand miles and a job as well, so I thought, blimey I'm into mortality tables, if somebody else's car had got my name written on it, so I decided to take a change. We all make mistakes. Erm, but ac actually I thoroughly enjoy working for Commercial Union, especially if you erm, he's taking all the Erm, I'd like to to welcome you to the Industrial Training Board, I spent about four and a half years with training scheme,and I actually originated in er, engineering, so er, I've got a long track record, perhaps of training and er, an even long track record working,so I won't give you too hard a time. Er, that's really me. Who's like to to explain wh who they are and whatever. Why not , yes. Erm, I from Edinburgh branch, I'm the Assistant Manager of Services there,erm, that means I'm in charge of Personnel and Admin, erm, Personal Insurances and our Technical Services Unit. Er, been with C U for er, six and a half years as well. Erm, joined as Management Training. Went to the usual training courses and General Branch. Erm, went, decided I wanted to be on the sort of management side. Went through Section Head of various departments and became the A M S there or M P S as it was at the time. Er, about two and a half years ago, erm, before that, er, just at college, so this is my first real job selection. Right. Take a seat. One of the things I will be doing is going round is just checking out the learning goals. Now learning goals for those that that didn't actually, sort of, get round to sending the little pre-addressed form. This is a form that we asked you to complete and send down, and some people have done it, and some people hadn't. so should get er, a bonus point for that. Erm, just want to check out that this is still roughly right. Erm, it's only general filling er, and it was mainly to develop assertiveness skills and confidence in putting forward your own ideas. This any more, additional on it. No, no, that's fine. You're quite happy with that. Excellent. Excellent. Okay. Er, we'll come back, perhaps after we've been there. To tell us about the the little problem we reported on, reported on something we want to look at, we can home in on some activity. Excellent. I've got it. I've got accused of people. Okay, John, you go for it, because you're Er, John work for Management Services, I'm a Systems Analyst and been with C U for just over three years now. Before that I worked fifteen years for a international bank. Er, prior to that I was trained as an electrician. So I've done a variety of jobs, and I'm not quite sure how I ended up doing what I'm doing I got into computers by accident, just being in the wrong place at the wrong time. I don't believe that, John. No, seriously, that's true. I found out they had a computer in the bottom of the building when I worked in the bank and it started off from that. I've done everything,programme, erm, Systems Analyst, I've done it all. Good. Tried it all, so I thought I'd come here Been there, done this, Yeah, a bit like the advert on television. Great. Thanks, John. And and, and how does this sort of match up with er, of No, I mean, that's that's That's reasonable. That's fine, yeah. They have state er, in your case, clearly, contributional, concise and without rambling. Tendency to waffle occasionally. Yeah, but I'm sure, I appreciate that. No, I didn't, no, I didn't, no honestly. Er, er be able to handle questions in a comfortable way. And er, become more assertive with my dealings with others. Yeah. Yes. That's true. Whatever that means, and we'll discover those as we go along. Are you happy with those? Yes. Any additions, subtractions. No. No. Good. Thank you, John. At the back, I see a, I see a movement from Phil. I'm Phil and I work in, erm,Mar Marketing Department, down in Croydon. Been in C U for three years. Joined as an M C. Erm, effectively I I mean I work in a Direct Marketing Department, all the junk mail for the un uneducated. Erm, handling a lot of the life erm,that we do. Prior to C U I came straight from University, so, I assumed Business Data Course. Right. Have we got one of these? Er, you should have, yeah, but it'll probably arrive Friday, because I'm a late replacement. Oh, really, oh shall we make allowances for him. Shall we, it depends who else hasn't done it. Okay, look, I haven't actually had a copy. You've obviously got it there. Yep. And do you want to give us a clue about what it says. Yeah, I mean,ef effectively, much of my job is involved with erm, handling negotiations, whether it be internal departments or at agencies, or whatever. Right. And, obviously to get them to do the right job in the right, within the right timescales. Right. Erm, you need influencing and negotiation skills. within timescales and Erm, like getting to the right thing Right. in the right time, effectively. Okay. Good. And obviously they have their own priorities, so they don't necessarily, they're not necessarily geared up for that. Phil, that's strange. Yeah, I know. Why don't they, wouldn't it be easier to the other one is effectively developing confidence in handling these these situations. how do you come to Anything else. Happy with those. Mhm. Great. Thank you Phil. Can I have a go now? Well done, Rosemary. Rosemary. set up. That's er point. Right, I'm Rosemary I am a Technical Leader at Management Services in which is a a fairly new role. A Technical Leader? A Technical Leader. Yes. Erm, it's fairly interesting. Indeed. I'm, I've worked at C U on er, for for many years. I joined erm, a branch that no longer exists, from school. A branch in London, and worked on personal assurances. From there I test programme unit, joined er,as a trainee programmer, having spent five weeks here first which was er,first and last. course that was say on here. Erm, from there I've erm, worked for four years, I've taken erm, a break to have children. I've erm, returned to work contracting and in fact, at Commercial Union for the last three years. Lived all my life in the south of England. Never living north of London. And north of Watford. Never been to Watford. No. Those of course, in the south do recognize that when, there are some people in the midlands, sort of , sort of round Northampton area, who try to get in, they won't they reckon, they reckon that the Watford Gap. It is a bloody, those of us from the south, now is as Watford, Hertfordshire, sorry about that,you know, we're well happy, you stand no chance of oh dear, I've got in the eye here, you know, we declared independence years ago. Good. Thanks, Rosemary. manager sent in my objectives, but I can't remember, now. Well, he sent in erm, She. He sent in a a a er,what what's called a nomination form. Now I've extracted from the nomination form, some things, but I don't know whether you've seen them. She had discussed them with me. Do these look something like what they were? Right. Okay, if you read and through, I take the kind of pros and cons of ideas, understanding there are those very active proposals, I've got more of a selling approach with pretending ideas, you know, the candid advervisement like, you tell us negotiating Lovely wording on that one. Er, and avoid conflict situations. Which course did she go on. learning,I I'm quite sure which course that came up on, yes. There's there's one, I think that's gonna need clarifying, and that's that this course isn't about presenting, er, it it maybe about adopting a selling approach but it's not about presentation skills. Mm. Yes, fair enough. Erm, I think many of the young people especially go through, never seem to have an interlock er, together to create er, whatever it is they want to . Which maybe you are now, I don't know. Are you happy with that. Yes. Any additions, subtractions. Good. Thank you for that, Rosemary. We're running out of options here. Well done, Clare. office systems in erm, for three, four just over four years now. I haven't been in office systems for all that time. Er, prior to that, I did a degree at college from Hull. Said Hull? Mm. I could tell it Erm, the other points I will probably Oh, here we got the the lists that Connie gave me, Yes. the lists that Connie gave me, Erm, probably Yes, they are a bit varied, aren't they, yeah. Yeah. I don't know whether you've received my You know, the one my manager just sent me, but I haven't. You didn't say anything, Mary. No. No. I I want your then, Rosemary. so, have you got some? Erm, well, yes, vaguely. Vaguely. Erm, a lot of my job is going to around branches, erm, and it is charged at,that are on the new systems, and that's negotiate with the new management services and branches and what systems have been reduced and the branches that have actually kept the ones they're on to. Mhm. And that stuff, usually, so I could just delete On what. On what. Well on,I do it the right way, because I don't always feel that I am doing it the right way. Tips on negotiating er, I put brackets between er office systems, maintenance services and the accusers. Yep. You get that. No, it's just confidence, really. But er, Okay. Happy with that? Ecstatic. Yeah. Right. Thanks Clare. We've come down to the wine you can't escape any long, now. I've just driven down from Manchester and I'm slightly knackered. But er, We did notice the old just had a late night on the town. Er, we did sample of the regional wines, last night erm. Been with C U for about two years last September, er started management training, came straight from University, erm, tt several section section head erm, starting with with various instructional outside they call it process control. Erm, why that exact name, I wasn't sure. Erm, live in Manchester, my natural place is Stockport which is, a little just outside Stockport, where I've lived Erm, it's taken me years to live a bloody long time. Okay. So I mean, er, I'm I'm really stumped down on the course, because erm, you know, all all my usual but jokes seem to be here, I mean I daren't say anything about Chinese. Er, or management services. assistants are in doubt It looks like it's going to be group supply in here. If there's any reason why I can have group supply, is that you can always pick on somebody to blame it all on, of course. That's true. But we didn't pick on you, No. No. I don't know whether it's circumstantial , or maybe didn't actually send it. Oh I didn't send it, no, I presumed my er, my managers would have it's a, it's a specifically to do with appraisals, erm, persuading to think I'm entitled to five hundred pound a day, or some something like that. Don't tell me. from my point of view. Yeah. anything else? Erm, no, Okay. You've come a long way from Manchester to deal with that. I'm sure we'll develop something I'm sure we'll develop something to go Okay. group, erm, must take those up at some stage and and transfer them to the wall. One of the things I'd like to know, erm, fairly on in the course is is your asked to bring along some thought, something you were trying to influence somebody about. So it would be used then, as a a working model, if you like, er, through the course. Erm, could I ask you to just share with us briefly, er, not in great detail, but, just a few words about what it is that you want to influence somebody about. Sort of share with you, give me some clue about how we can organise the rest of the course as well. Let's let, s go . Yeah, sure. Yeah, let's go then. Erm, well, luckily my section manager is a forty-six year old woman who is erm,section like that, at the bottom of the copy of the report. Right. Erm, I like it there to be filled in by the managers older by about two years or so. Mhm. Erm, erm, I mean, she doesn't have a very strong character, but erm, on the scale of Erm, I'm sure she'll make he reckons about half an hour erm, to make sure that Right. Good. Just a couple of things I want to check out. Yeah. I think we're not going to talk about processing. Yes, erm, yeah, yeah, yeah. Appraisals, you appreciate that we're not going to talk about processing appraisals. Which is another course. Book early in the new year. There are places available. Er, collect the forms on the way out. Erm, the other aspect is that you have actually got line authority on this Phil. Yeah, that's right. Can I just check out that what you're actually talking about is influencing that. Yes. Rather than directing, be directive. You wanted to Well, it's it's this, during discussion, erm, I've got to bring her round to my point of view rather than on her point of view, and discussing the erm, Okay. Erm fine. Er, er I think this is a general point, because we'll talk in a moment about what is influencing, Yeah, and classically one of the problems is, that we get situations where, at the end of the line, you've got a line authority on somebody, you say, I hear it all, I hear it all. Now do it. Mm. Er, because I have line authority on you. I am your manager, I'm your boss. Do it. Erm, at which point influencing has somewhat become a bit of a waste of time. Yeah. It becomes just two fingers in the eye type of thing. Erm, but you're saying, you don't, you want to get it right without doing that. That's right. Fine. Okay. We'll go with that one. group you didn't, if you'd said no there, I just threw it down and said well, you'd better think of another one. Okay, thanks Tony. Let's work round, Rosemary. Right, erm, how can I explain, without being too technical. Oh, don't worry about it. Imagine aren't normally, but erm, We're, we're, I'll tell you what, we we're stuck here, every time you say something, we don't understand, Rosemary, we'll we'll get a check out. Yeah, you know,I start of all this sensibly. Sorry. I'll can I just check sensibly it might be something Aw, ah ah my dear. like the course assessor. Sorry, Rosemary. Carry on. In programming, if something's called J S P Jackson Struction Pro-level Method, and erm, I think I can introduce a slightly modified way of using it. Er, a more sensible way of using it, providing divisional good ideas. Yes. And this has been accepted by an authority of people on site, erm, presentations with management authority you know, they've all been told that they must follow union rules. Erm, are now in the process of following up to see if who has made er the switch to the new regime, and I have been approached by one project leader who has two programmers who refused to change, and has asked for help. Right. You know, so before I approach them, they've gonna have to quit the union And certainly there is a situation where you don't have line on it, line of approach on it. No direct You've just got to talk to them about J S P, which is a subject very close to my heart. First time The first time I saw this, when I was up in I thought, look at that, can't even get John Player Special round the right way. Yes, so it's it's something where you've got to try and influence somebody to to change to a new way of doing it. That's right. Good example. Erm so it's two people on that section. Er, just so that we can see which way we're working, John, can I just check out, have you the faintest idea what the hell she's talking about? Yes. Oh, excellent. In case Well, I know, I know,pleased. Kids are gonna be role playing there, and think, there's there's somebody else wants to jump in, you know, and then, because No, I've got my own views on it, now. Aw, aw, that sounds good, good. Rosemary. seriously It's it's funny he's just checking under the It's funny you should be here, John. Er,John. Probably won't come as a surprise to you, but er, I've been working on a training system. For a department within C U and er we've done this design on it, and come up with a new system, that we want to try and sell to other departments within the company. Now there is one department in particular that already have a training system in place, albeit the old volume two, but having said that, it works quite well, really. But, they're going to be made on, in fact, it's going to be pushed rather heavily they change to this new system, and they're going to have to meet some of the costs of development of the new system. Erm, what they need to be able to do is just be able to gently lead it along the right tunnel Right. To to accept it. It's not clear at the moment, whether we gonna get too much opposition, I mean,they might just sort cave in straight at the beginning and then take it on board, but er, there's definite potential there. They've they've asked for a few changes to their older system, and this new one will give them all that they want, plus a load that they don't want. And I get the impression that they're probably just quite happy to live with what they currently have, so I think it's just. That's the only problem get a and try it get influence,got to tactful about it, you know. Yes, of course. It goes without saying. I mean, one of the things that quite often comes across at various elements of this course, is that the word selling comes out. Erm, because it is a, many of the the aspects of the United Kingdom, you know, from every try making something, been trying to sell them on to you. So, let's have a, an interesting and er, tell us why other department makes life clear. Erm, well, at the moment I'm involved in a a big project, new benefits claims, erm, and so if the new claims system could echo which priorities in that department, erm, and it looks like it will be long drawn out eventually at the end of next year, nationwide and effectively it's a English processing system whereby terms coming in and they're scanned and you can see images on a screen, so there's gonna be no calls, what my, what my role in this is, gonna be to get the branches to accept the system. And So I'm gonna need to to influence them, to actually to accept the whole concept of change and, you know, all of them really. But er,That's what I would quite like to today, You gonna come back tomorrow. I'm gonna come back tomorrow. Excellent, Clare bit of fun there Fine. I I I take it a great er, challenge now, I've only ever lost three delegates, only three delegates ever walked out on course on me, so, don't, you know, don't ruin my About six, two people already had the sense not to come. on to that one. Does anybody understand vaguely what Clare's talking about heard of this example. Mm, I've heard it, yeah. You know much about it. Don't argue. No, I never. What I know is sense of others profits. Oh, So it's not only got to be done, that's the problem. Well get somebody in, Somebody who imagine they don't like it, Clare, in fact, you know. You can always fix some objections. Okay. Thanks again. market Phil. Right, well, ninety per cent of the work that I do is effectively what what we call third party mailing whereby we will take erm, an insurance brokers client list, erm, and mail them the C U product. Erm, and they will earn commission on that. Now, for more important brokers, what tends to happen is, er the Direct Marketing Manager, my boss will go out and meet these brokers, and er, effectively cost him the earth, erm. All things being equal we could probably turn one of these things around, which is basically preparing all the literature, briefing the systems people and getting it all printed up and everything in about six weeks. But we've er, other projects and er, things going on, we are dealing with like, anything up to sixteen weeks ahead of it. And of course, as I say, it costs us the earth. So, we constantly being plagued by tight deadlines erm which means that, when incurring a additional costs, from overtime work, the printers and many things like that. So what I'd like to do is erm, balance out the influence in him, prior to going out and making these negotiations erm, so that he comes back with a a suitable timescale for us to deal with it, and hasn't promised them the earth in the way of commission or er, print changes or whatever. Mm. Is that selling er,selling in terms of time. Flexing their And, and what do they get commission? Yeah. Yeah. Good. At least we did have boss, sometime it's not being good you can say, they've been good, and they say ah, it's just what Phil wants. yeah Instead of saying you know,or something. Okay. Next Erm, I had a bit difficulty coming up with a case,actually, erm, this No problems. No, no, not that. It's just that this year I have had a lot of weak influencing situations, been on a lot of projects groups and so on, and last year I needed a lot of extra staff. So maybe we would have been great to have the skills before I did it, and that's why I am on the course this Erm, the only thing that I can think of that's erm, something that I do believe and I am committed to getting changed, is er, a system in our offices, in one of our departments, but I do have erm, authority over the people that I would be talking to, so, I know at the end of the day, I could just say, do it, but I'm trying to get them to believe in changing erm, and just sort of certain benefits of it. Basically the system is our cover note book control, er, we issue cover note books to agents and it's up to us to make sure that they're all issued in sequence, as their legal documents etc, and a minute a gap comes up we have to chase them etc, it's run by erm, people quite low units and they scared of a job and tend to put it off as lose, and I want to visit and try and influence them so I can give them some help and to change it and bring it up to date, because it's er. We got it up to date recently, but it was a major job and it always slips back, so. That's really The influence is really to get the system, and keep it running. Yes. Suppose to have to Aha. Catch up yeah. Which soak up more time Mhm. Okay. As you say, it's lying but Mhm. What you're really saying, I think is, that you actually want to do it Mhm. whether they want to do it, Yes. rather than you, because your telling them. That's right, 'cos they might not do it. Well, they will, they will do it, but they won't want to do it er, you know, like committing themselves if you tell them to. No. They do that, don't they? They say, yes boss, yes. They do things like, that's a terrific idea, boss. Er, I agree with you totally. And they're shaking their head, and they're saying no, it isn't. I think they're saying one thing, and they do something else. Er, commitment, Mhm. I think perhaps er, is probably your answer. That means trying to get them commit committed in the nicest possible way. Mhm. They no longer get co committed under the old way. Okay. Thanks for that group. Er, I think they sound like a good set of people you can work with, though. I tell you, I make that point, that we we have to, to try and not vet, but to check you out, if we've got somebody that's understandable, realistic, because we have had examples on this course, where erm, with the best will in the world, and the systems are the right hand of God, erm, the projects that people have brought along, the case studies that people have brought along, won't work. Er, the most extreme case, of which I think was a project accountant on U K finance. He came along with a project which was to get to get somebody to change in a company where we bought forty per cent of it. Forty per cent is insignificant, the sixty per cent was still owned by the man and his company, and somebody in the organisation, I know this sounds fairly tall, had said go and get this company to do this, because it works for us, Commercial Union. Well, of course the guy with the sixty per cent just kept saying, you know, up yours, in the nicest possible way, you know, it may work for you, but why should I do it when I get no benefit from it, and I own sixty per cent of this outfit. Go away. Now with the best will in the world, there is no way that that fellow could get this other party to change. Would you? But he was sort of being destructive, quite a boss to go and get them to do it, and they wouldn't. Well, you never go in an unrealistic influencing situation, and er, the other one would have said, well, we've had situations where it has been very much a line type decision. Or somebody saying, yeah, I took, I want them to do it because,they're actually underlying, and er, if either of these cases, where there is lying, if you drop into line, er what we do in case studies, or working through it, I shall say stop, start again,okay. Good. Okay, group. Good stuff, well done. Thank you very much. Now we're on the road, er, let's see what other goodies we've got over here going on, oh, yes, we're checking out how well people are being briefed before they came on the course. I mean, come on,but I do understand that some of you were briefed or, or Don't worry about this now, but we would like this briefing questionnaire back before you leave on Wednesday, er, if you were a late replacement, could you just make that plain on there, er, if you weren't briefed, you've got the shortest questionnaire in the world to fill in. You get to page two, and it said, were you, and you say no and that's it. Er, if on the other hand, you can yes, then you can see a little bit further down the line, but don't worry about those now. In a in a quiet moment, er, perhaps you could fill those in and then send them back, say, before we finish on the Wednesday. One of the things that's perhaps a little difficult to say with that tape recorder running in the middle of the room, is, that this course offers, operates a sense of code of confidentiality, and I'm not sure how this is going to work. somebody else out there who's hearing every word we're saying. What er, we would normally say is that, what you say in here doesn't leave this room via Peter and myself, er, in order, sometimes, to talk about the other situations, I think perhaps we'll we'll have an agreement, with whoever's gonna pick this tape up afterwards. If at any stage, somebody wants to talk turkey, and mentions people's names, they'll indicate that and we'll switch the tape off whilst we talk about him. Yeah? Because I think it's important, that quite often in influence situations, we get down to the real nitty gritty. We actually start mentioning names. At this stage, John will say, like another department. Up to, you know, few hours where we've been together, he'll actually be prepared or at least to the rest of us, who the hell he's talking about. People will say, you know, this person, and they won't mention their names, after a few hours together, we start to get to grips with the nature of influencing, and the names start falling out. So there's a general agreement for every well there will for me, like, if at any stage you want to talk turkey. Talk people, just say, I want to talk and you can't tape, until you've like conversation. Plus the favourite one, at a certain stage is is just to leave it off. Okay. So, we've got some learning books, well done. Remember where we're going. at the moment. One of the things we need to think about, quite early on, I suppose, is er, is the nature of what we're actually talking about. What are we talking about? What's this course we're on? Influence Course. In thank you, John. influencing. Now, one of the things that I find increasing increasingly so, is the fact that words become popular, don't they? Er, words are in words. We had words of the sixties, there were words of the seventies, there were words of the eighties, words of the nineties, and we're influencing by those words, actually that's reasonably in popularity and er increasing usage, and sometime we, people actually use it and they don't know what it means. Sometimes people don't actually understand what the hell they mean, when they say it anyway. So, the first little bit of exercise we're gonna do is, I'm gonna ask you to, just work in pairs for about five minutes. Just looking at how to use a word, and I'm better gonna have a look. Work in pairs, just round the table, don't be embarrassed with, John, Clare, Phil and Ed. Just spend five minutes putting your thoughts down on paper. What are the words, what are the expressions that come to mind when you say influencing. What are things, other meanings of it. A word that coins the same message. You know. Er, try, let's try and get it home and understanding of what the word means. Whilst we're doing this exercise, we'll switch the tape off. So let's take some er, some music. What sort of things, what sort of words, come to mind when you hear the word influencing. Shoot me. swine. Now this pen doesn't spell double R R. Okay, I've got to warn you,said the spelling, keep getting office systems to try and get us some decent colouring pens, but they don't. Does that look right. It doesn't look right from up here. One of the other problems from standing close that's right. This oh sorry that's a stroke Ah I think it's got two S S's He who has the pen, has the power. Okay, Leading. Leading. The pen's doing all right in the programme. Negotiations. Negotiations. Has it got to be one word answers? Not necessarily, no. Frenzies have been Affecting a change. Affecting a change. Got that one. Yes. Affecting a change. Good. A bit strong, isn't it. No, as you say Yeah. Go for commercial C C A C A M P was an S Don't know what you mean. Coercion, Coercing. Yes. Selling. Selling, and they've been listening already. Yes. Good. Convincing. Convincing. Good Assertiveness. Assertiveness. You've been reading the programme as well. Good. Managing. Managing. Affective. Affective Right. So you want to fill in the spaces, you thought, you, having nothing at the bottom of the page, but the big gaps There's more? Proposing. Proposing. Right. Got a long one here. Bringing about a change of heart. Bringing about a change of heart. Oh when he's here. heart. I think Communicating. Communicating. How about a bit of a stupid answer. Being very revolutionary, in'ya, John. You sure this'll catch on. You sure this'll catch on Don't know. Yeah, it sounds like a good idea to me. Yes. Any more. Yeah, I got one, expressing a view, got to be the one All right. Expressing a view. Yeah. Any more. Okay. That's a pretty er comprehensive list. Actually longer than the list we've got. Erm, well done. It's about, when you look at influencing, some of these parts are component parts some of 'em are, some of them are, ancillary associated skills, which help us influence. Er, some of them are different words, for influencing on, a bit a bit of a mis-match here of mish-mash, rather of those different aspects. Er, but essentially, let's look at what we're saying. nobody's saying. You're saying that there are certain things which are, maybe words which are alternatives or part of Influencing. What might there be. What might be the alternative words to influencing or, alternative phrases Persuade. Persuade, I think is probably one, isn't it, which is a different, a different word, something that might be using in it's place. Others Affecting. Affecting. get the only one. That's it. Yes. Again. Any others? Yes. Right. Convincing. Oh yes, I was gonna say, I think convincing is is another word that goes along with the general ambience of what influencing is about. Sorry, the ghost hasn't come over from the other side of the door, it just keeps moving by itself. I think it's the wind. Er, any other words there that particularly that we would use, er you know, replacement for the word influencing. I think coercing probably Yeah, in a fairly sort of that's a bit of a coercing, isn't it, maybe in to er, dirty tricks department. Mm. But it's moving towards that end, where, do it or else. Yeah. Recognise that er, the implications of that but you're right,co coercing could be er an adve a rather negative end of influence. Erm, you're getting into sort of aspect. Er, some of the others though, one minute, I don't want to pick out all of them, but, some of the others recognise they are actually parts of influencing,wh what what might be parts of the influencing. What associated skills do we Reading listening. Yeah, er reading and listening are certainly a part, sorry, no skills which you haven't got, you gonna have a problem, in terms of influencing. To be To be brilliant. How can you influence people if you can't communicate with them one way or another. The answer is, with great difficulty. Er, the other s Sorry yeah, certainly, part of it thinking about the way on which we put together a package of ideas, and how we're going to get that across and sell that to the other party. Excellent. Any others? I think our party, I think managing is very much about organising, nothing in the directive form of management But managing a situation. If you don't manage influence, what actually happens? If you don't manage anything, what happens. control. Exact control. You've got two options basically, in your influencing to be either, your in control or your not in control. And if you're not in control, you've usually got chaos coming very shortly. Erm, for considering, is an aspect of other parts of the for you to go. I mean, the sort of things we got down are persuasion, motivated to do something, people see things as you see them, changing the way things are done, getting a view point across, solutions accepted, getting other party to accept change, you've got the words up there. Erm, getting the other party to cons consider your views. The dove-tailing of ideas into to mutual benefit which maybe also aspects of sound. It's about something, perhaps, that isn't implicit out there. It may be implied, but I don't think it's it's actually explicit up there, and I think it pond I would like to to recognise what we're going to work towards, and that is influences about choice. Without recognising that there is something needs to happen,to about recognising choice. How you're going to approach it, as well as the choice of the outcome as well. Er, and it's also about you're going to erm, take two inputs when we need to recognise you need choice and you also need flexibility as well. So one word we came down here to talk about, and hey, here's a whole lot things. It's a whole mess of things, it's a combination of those sort of things put together, that actually makes influence. Think of people that have influenced you in the past, and got you to do things, which, if you look back, and you think, that was very clever. I I wasn't even going to do that, I didn't want to do that. But they did, they got me to change, because I suppose all the words up there, and I'm gonna find three most significant ones that and change, er, because while you influence somebody to turn from what they were doing, probably not too often, but it's usually about something, when you think about the examples that you brought along, and you knew all about change. Wanting to something to do totally differently. And influencing to do it without alternatives we're gonna have when we're managers. So, there's a whole concept of things we we need to er, to remember, what influencing is about. We're gonna come back to some of the as we work through. But what I'd like to do before we progress much farther, is just to, just to think, maybe about some of the things that I've said there, some of the things that we've already spoken about. Some of the things that you probably went through when you padlocked together. But there's two questions, two questions to answer, erm, why do we need influence? That your views were on those two questions, and let's take erm, let's stick to views of why do we need influencing, first of all. Talk us through groups. Not all at once. Just one at a time. Would be helpful, you know, Ladies first. No. The first one is the erm, er,or so, when directs authority over somebody, will, we don't, we can't tell them to do it, we have to influence or persuade them to do something. Erm, obviously one needs to change peoples ideas or change the way we do things or whatever, erm two relevant position that's sort of making them believe in what they're trying to erm, propose, and getting commitment at the end. So that they mean what they're saying. Some good reasons why we need some of these skills, before we Good, er, gentlemen. erm, bringing about change of this, erm Yes. First of all change erm, You're thinking about it small change. Erm, it's first of all, I thinking about changing their, like say for example, you know, the guy speak to me about change, erm a systematic erm to see the benefits bringing about change without his image. obviously the reasons for Good. seemingly changing. Every if the reason that something's gotta change is obvious to everybody, then you don't really need to have any influence over their It usually has to be some considered opinion that you want Yes, I mean, if it's blatant and obvious, and there's only one option er, that's the bit about choice, if there's only way of doing it, and one option, then you don't have to influence people. Your driving down the road, and you carry on driving if there's no cross-roads. You gotta carry on driving down the road. Unless you want to be in the fields. you've got a problem. Good. Yes. Oh, there's some good reasons why we need this skill. Okay, so what is it all about. All of the people, including the ones that can carry on. Yes, let's do that. Let's let's ask the gentlemen to er, in fact I might do that. by the way, a fatal mistake,sexist Are they? Aye? Tell us, ladies, what was er, what was some of the things you need to consider, then. That was gentlemen. Sorry, gentlemen, you're right. Yes, one of the important things you need to have influence, is remember peoples names and what sex they are. Quite right, Rosemary. You can get yourself Right, what's this lot been given. Well, we need to know what the alternative point of view to our own is. Erm, we need to know what the position is now, and where we want to be, so, a lot of the influence is going, what change the influence is going to bring about. reaction. Erm, our own is, obviously our own reasons for wanting this change but we ought to know the needs of others to see whether they correspond. Right. Erm, we need to be convincing in challenge, otherwise the challenge,erm, we should question whether there is a need for any change, erm, if things have been done in a certain way for a certain period of time, erm, just because we want to change them, doesn't mean to say that it doesn't Right. Erm, the method that we're likely to use, or might be successful in bringing about this change, and once we've done it how it's likely to be effective. Well said, well said. But surely in that when I said let's see whether it considerations I said. I think you would agree with him, when he said er, that Fifteen all. Erm, first time, I think of some other things that would erm, would be considered in the light of influencing erm, got the power structure, it was important,approach and and you talk to your manager Yes. Feelings, personality again,approach. peoples, can affect where you, which erm, which you needed for some Mm. You need a plan of structurally approach. About deciding on important something important, like going to lunch, you know, going on holiday. That's right. And and backing, that's always important, you know, if you've got some support, Good. Two very good sets there. recognise what we've, what we've done so far, erm,but, we're actually track on what you need, I mean, what why we need it. That's what we mean, that's why we're What do you say,to consider for the to pick up many details. And well done. Both groups, for recognising this. Influence is about change. About getting things to move along, but when you start breaking down what the other aspects are about a lot of things, erm it was good influencing, recognise this and somebody will just suddenly say oh,no nothing nothing to do with influencing, And just walk off, because, you wouldn't have done, what you've just said there. In terms of consideration. Er, and they may be little things, but if you get them wrong, if you firmly recognise the power structure with people working with you, go on, who's your Yes. People of your level don't talk to people of my level, and that's changing the organisation, but it certainly used to used to be getting organisations. Erm, not recognising that there are other people involved. It's not you and your change, it's them and their changing view you are considering, as well as you. You've got to live in their world if you gonna affect that change, if you don't live in their world and only live your own, if you don't recognise, er, the problems that they're making in terms of change happens, and those are the that you are going to give into the So yes, you can think about yourself and and others, and you can think about the reasons, and you think about the priorities, about planning, about structure level. About who's it gonna be affecting. About what backing,we think this is a jargon expression,sponsor, isn't it. Who's really driving this. And if you've got big enough names, you can actually move people, quite fast. You know, if you say David in most places, it didn't have a hell of a lot of effect after all, he just came If you sort of mention, like, a name like Walls or Rennells, you got people with feet several, you know, feet off the ground. er, and moving in the right direction, a whole nest of things, when you think about, if you're going to try and influence something that are influenced, but influence is actually very varied in terms of science. If the problem you're confronted with is a ten thousand pound bit of influence, then it's worth spending a few hundred pounds in a preparation. If it's a ten p bit of influence, it's only worth spending a couple of pence on it. Get them round the wrong way, of course, and you spend ten thousand pounds worth of preparation on a ten p problem. And a ten p and people say it's money. it is, and I have to agree with them, and so would you. That, you need to recognise and think about, how big is the challenge how big is their influence. Because of the situations, some of the ones you've been on here, have got quite a consider considerable implications. Erm, in terms of putting the non-running in your department. And if you get them right, then it could be not just this time, but other times, could come along and wreck them, sometimes it's a bit like a domino queue, isn't it, you get this one fall down, knocks others down as well. So. Good step. So now we know what it is. We know why we need it. We know some of the things, er most of the things, in fact, that we need to do to think in terms of consideration. We'll come back and pick up some of them aspects as we go along. Any questions or clarification that either team want from the other team about their views? No. The question was asked me, erm, is there a hand-out on this. The answer is, if they had a particular general part of the study, but I shall stick them on the wall, er, with Blue Tac, but I shall stick the Blue Tac on the so I shall just make that point, so that if some particular person whose just taken it on, don't ask about the use of Blue Tac in his room. It's only a joke, I'll tell you about that in a minute, erm. Okay, good comment. Good set group. Shall we have a a cu cup of tea, I think you've earned a cup of tea, now. For all our, walking and talking and hard work. This erm, relates to a model, erm, called a model for developing positive Very English sounding expression. I mean, it actually has some four sections to it. And I'm gonna talk through it in terms of a positive sense, er, and the different way. What this model is really saying is that, what we actually do, er, create impressions erm, used. You can start anywhere on this model. It has four areas, I happen to have chosen to start it on the point, you could start it look at, you can see area, but, this, just look at erm, it's this way round. The, one of the things that we carried forward to do with influencing, erm memories and attitudes, if you're thinking about in the positive model, positive way, it'd say going into an situation, I've been here before, and I was successful. Erm I know what I'm doing. I have self esteem. I can carry this off. I am very positive in my views, and where I come from. Yes. Erm, I feel good, a feel good factor, er, I can I can change this situation, I can do it. There's a very positive attitude, yes. Which in itself, creates a er mood, when you look at things like plans and intentions. That says that er I know what I'm doing, because I'm positive, erm, I know where I'm going to, and as a consequence I can plan for that. I know what I want, I can plan for it. I'll get it. I can rehearse, I can be totally prepared. Er, because of them, I have a sense of purpose and I know where I'm going. So the memory has created a situation where you're looking for a planned intention was developing and I and suc suc suc and I was successful. I can actually plan and get my directions in a very positive sense. Does that make sense? Sorry, sense,do you know what I mean. So when you actually come to erm, try and influence somebody,you you're actual behaviour in there is based on sound er preparation, sound positive thoughts. So that when you're actually into a situation, your external behaviour is generating situations of positive vibes. Body language, there you go. Er, you would be persuasive, the language that you use will be in a positive sense, a positive vein. You will actually you'll hear, you'll listen because you want to find out what the other party's views are relative to where you're trying to take them. Yes. Er, you express yourself appropriately, because you will be confident and know what you're doing. Yes. And in itself, that creates in the other party, whoever it is you're trying to er to influence, their responses er, and reactions which will be positive to yours. And you will have a sense of being trusted, because of what you're doing. Er, you will be listened to, er, and that will create, and you will have influence, and that cycle will take you back into the positive memories for the next time you try and change something. Recognise. It goes round and round and round, on a big wheel. Many of these models and this is one, where you can actually go in on the, on the opposite side. It says, positive outcomes. This you have to recognise. What sort of things happen though, if you're into the negative side. Not just talking through a positive side. What happens er, here, if you're a negative? Your nervous and apprehensive about doing some Right. Into that situation. Yes. You've really run here. I've done this before, and it didn't work and I'm gonna have to do it again, and Q E D, it isn't gonna work. Because the memories and attitudes of the past are with us. Now, so you've got bad vibes coming in. What does that create in terms of what you're doing here in the plans and intentions bit, what does that getting over bad , badly You're not going to be very positive, certainly, are you. Er, no plans, er confusion, I mean, that will never do. Because if you're feeling unsure about it, that's exactly your feelings. I have been here. I don't like this. Perhaps I don't and it's falling down that trap. Er, well I'll just do and see what happens. So, when you actually come and try and do it, what happens? If you're not playing and feeling bad, what actually happens. me an answer. You come across as negative. In what sort of ways? In lack of prediction. Lack of prediction, which will be shown, how? in your body language,be structured. Right. The body language, you won't be structured. The words that you use. How many times have you heard somebody trying to convince and influence you on something, and they're using negative words. I'm printing this up, but I don't think you're going to like it. Some of you will immediately say, no I don't like it. They don't even like it, so what don't you like. They're not convinced, how on earth am I supposed to believe it. Erm, negative sense of how they expect yo , peculiarity there, that you could all, you can also flick a coin, though. Er, a very negative form of er, of behaviour, can be, you can actually get highly directive, and start telling people, erm, we've already identified that influences, not having that ability to tell, it's something that people try and do it, it's a, it's a facade, that people put up and get behind them. Erm, and say well, I don't think I'm convincing, so I'll try telling them, maybe they won't recognise that I don't have the authority to tell them, and they'll still do it. Anybody fallen for that one? No. Yeah, I have, and they say, ha ha. and they go and do it. So, the external behaviour can either be er, well I don't know to ask you to do this, but their not gonna like this, but, or you can try and tell Well,story of telling you had to do it, Yeah. Erm, if you a certain reaction as well. Things that create, well why should I do it. Right. Yes. I suspect also that it influences your attitude towards that person. Right. Because the cycle goes on, don't it. The next time you try and I've been here before, and I didn't get it last time. Didn't get last time, and I'm not going to get it this time, either. Ah, that's a bit of bad news, isn't it. So the wheel goes on. Says model for developing positive outcomes, because if it is in a positive cycle, actually the more it goes round, the more positive it gets. On the other hand, it's also like walking over the end of a plug-hole. If it's a negative cycle, it also reinforces that negative bit, I've been here before, I didn't feel comfortable, I can't do it, it won't be successful, and all because you're not. Because it's like the water getting faster and faster around the, around the plug-hole and it all becomes gentlemen, let's check out you. So if it suddenly goes the other way round yeah. Who cares. information, er, they did it on erm, one of the programmes they actually put a bucket of water actually on the equator, I don't know if you saw it. Yes. But it didn't go anywhere, just went straight down the plug- hole. Quite incredible. straddling the line. And as you say, I don't care, it's just a useless bit of information, I thought you might like to know about. It's about watching for this cycle we do this sort of thing in many aspects of our life. We build at getting better things, where if we don't actually watch it, we build at getting worse at things. Because we've been there and we we set, it's a cycle form of prophecy. Mm. I don't like this, I'm I'm no good at it. I can't do it, and when we try and do it, we're no good at it, and we can't do it. So one of the aspects we're looking for sometimes is recognising when we're in a negative cycle, how you can turn that round to a positive cycle. If we're in a positive cycle, how can we make it more positive. Yes. How about when you work to, when you're in a positive cycle to be aware of the negatives. Mm. Why do you think that Because, I mean, you could say something wonderful etc etc You could be coming round here to various attitudes and behaviours intentions, behaviours, albeit highly positive, but if you don't recognise what other people are doing, your responses, they, you may feel positive, but if they are saying er, I just don't accept this sort of thing from you. It's the sort of thing unfortunately some people say, innit. You can't have those my dear, those things don't work. That is an unusual sort of thing to say. You tend to recognise particularly in that area of other people's responses, and you keep going on, you're bulldozing, aren't you. Mm. You keep pushing something along, pushing something along, pushing Well this is, this is er,who isn't here today. Peter round here, sort of, he's losing it by now ,er, Peter got his best shirt and tie on. Dressed for the occasion, see. Er, so the cycle is is very important, yes, to recognise where you're in the positive cycle, but be aware of other peoples responses. Equal, I might add, peculiarly sometimes when you're feeling very negative, Mm. Around here, a number of people are saying,dear God, what's he talking about. And you feel working at, pick this up, you can miss those points. You see, this person's actually very positive, you won't find a fault. They keep on going on in the negative sense and the bulldozing here, has got you digging a big hole, and you eventually fall into it. And expression twenty five per cent of the hole stop digging. Erm, you know, you can find this, to actually need to work on where you're at in the cycle and why you're there, and what it means, to what you're trying to do. Do they not also need turning points, though. on that. If you do,on, if you're in a negative cycle, and you do start getting positive reactions, if you're lucky and recognise that, can they not turn the whole thing around? Absolutely. Yeah. The trick is to lo to watch for them, to be aware of them, erm,because we've we've practically, better to go around the cycle, wherever you start, you can say, I chose to start here, but you can start anywhere, the minute you go in and give positive bits, which will create positive reactions, which will give you positive memory. You don't have to start at a attitude, but yeah, if you're watching for them, and you start to see signals, you need to be aware of these, because that's really the situation, isn't it, that's why I think you to be aware of influence. You said we needed to listen, we also got to watch, hear the words, what the words mean. What they actually you can get a lot of stuff out of that. Erm, what do you think he wrote on the other side of that bit of paper in front of you. What he actually wrote is, is your views on those four stages, relative to this particular situation. This particular case study. Do you recognise any. No. Know, I don't know why I got you wrote, whether it's positive or negative. In fact, you may begin to get an inkling now, er, in terms of some of the words that you wrote down there. I'm seeing a few bright smiles here, which is, er, interesting. Yeah. What I'd like to do Is to, split up into pairs, and talk to each other about what you've written down. If it's negative, how are you going to turn it round to a positive. What can you get, where can you break that cycle. If it's a positive, how can you make it more positive, remembering our aim really is, good better better better better. Continuously improving. Erm, what I'd thought about, because at this stage we'd like to erm, perhaps start to get the feel of these little examples of application,How do these pairings sound for you. Er, I daren't give away Rosemary and John, 'cos they're the only two that can understand what the hell I'm talking about. before. The other four will agree with this one, very rapidly, but how do you two feel about that. Yes. It's a bit Yes, feel comfortable with that? Erm, I thought Damien and Phil might be able to work together. Yes. No, no way. No way. Down the pub. rock-facing. Er, er, Annette and Clare. I mean, I did try and and make a male and female split all the way round, on the basis that all team male and all female team done it earlier. But er, I have a feeling that you two might be able to work better . Is that Okay. Yes. Yes. Work in those pairs. Look at what you've written down. Think. Is that a positive sample I've got. How can I increase this positiveness if it's a negative sample. What can I do to turn it round to a positive. What action point do I need to change, if I change it. Yes. I got twenty past, er, I reckon this should take about ten minutes to a quarter of an hour, okay. Talk through each one, and try and get that sample good luck. Yes. You can tell us where we are, paid off in the year conservatory. No. pay for the conservatory, today. I says, oh she'll give me a little nod like. He says, well I'll give you little nod I want sex! She says I says yeah but I wanna help Kath out cos she's helped me out. What does she want? I dunno! I says. Oh! Has Jacqueline gone? Yeah. She seemed alright when she left. She were alright when she were with me today. Yeah. It's she never attempted to go she just wandered all round till she met me Yeah. Then I says to her eh up duck! I says, eh up! I said, what you doing right up here? She says, I'm looking for you. I says, well I picked them forms for you and everything. Yeah. I said, but I'm gonna fetch them back. I says Yeah. drop them off at our house, I said, and fetch them back like. Yeah. So, she says, oh it don't matter. She says er will you help me fill them in now? I says, can I ask you a question? She says what? I says, these forms things, I says d'ya know how to fill them in? She says Ah. no. She said, somebody's always done it for me. Annette's done them. Well, apparently, they must of done it. Cos I said Yeah. to Steve on t' phone, I says, I helped her fill all the forms in, you don't mind do you? I says, because Mm. she didn't know. I says Yeah. has she never filled them in before? Yeah. So he says no, when I've been there I've always done it. Yeah. So, I, cos I had to do talking for her and all! I says, they asked her age of kids and, that. Yeah. And she forgot. I says,and she forgot ! I says, I had to tell them they were three and one year old. Yeah. Anyway, er they were talking to her, they explained about that money Yeah. and is your Steve, he must have thought she'd come back here with me. Yeah. And he's been in contact, he's after them or summat Yeah. and he's been and gorrit, he's took his half and it's going,i cos I thought I'll come to your house and tell you in front Yeah. of Bill. Yeah. Yeah. That it were coming down and then Yeah. if she says it's not, then Yeah. Bill will say, well hang on a minute! I know it come down because Kath come over, you know. Yeah. Yeah. I thought well, I'll take pot luck and hope she's Yeah. at your house. That's Yeah. why I come straight across. Yeah. But he hadn't put He never to my house. Cos he knew his dad were there. Well, he'd seen her with me hadn't he? Mm. So he automatically thought she'll have gone home. She never left me at all! Never left me! Cos I thought well if you were me She just says, I didn't like he walks past. I says to her They're only ninety nine pence! Yeah I know. She says, I didn't feel th right about taking, I says, well when you get yourself straightened out, I says, if you pop into town and Kath's in town, you bump into her, I said take her for one of them meals. They're only ninety nine pence! Yeah but she's she's like that. Oh! I made her. First of all, I says to her I'm gonna have a sandwich. She had that little bottle of pop. Oh! Yeah, I know. Look what I found. They left it on Doug's wall, I had to tell you after cos er Oh! Right. I've had her in stitches! I forgot about that. I meant to pick it up. You've had who? Jackie? Yeah. Why? On Sunday I put some sprouts on, right and doing summat, I forgot all about the bloody things! And I burnt them. So Has she burnt sprout again! Yeah but, it was only on the bottoms of some of them so I said cut the bits off and er, I shut the door to, and Bill said, why are you shutting the door? I says, I don't want the burglar alarm, the smoke alarm going off. So I'm cutting them all off, put them in some fresh water again. Right? Yeah. And he says, I got a lot of sprouts! A o they turn me off! He were being silly ! I didn't want bloody burnt sprouts! So, and he eat it all! Did he? Mm. He eat it all. And I'm telling Jackie about this, I says, d'ya know, I says, I must be getting bloody worse! See to, the liver and bacon casserole stuff Yeah. got the cabbage, and the taters crucified! You burnt them again? I burnt the taters! She went flying upstairs! You did that! She went flying up the garden! Did she? She said, honest! Honest! I did. And anyway, I said, you put the bloody mockers on me! Did she have her tea before she went out like? Did she have summat to eat? No. No. She must have been full. She's gonna do meatballs and er hot dogs for the kids. Do two tins Oh! Yeah. you know, and she'll have some of them. Cos I says to her, I says, do you want a turkey sandwich and well, there was only like a quarter of a tin left. We only had it at half past twelve. Yeah. Cos I hung on, and hung on Unless she's took three quarters of turkey back. Has she? Yeah. I says, well you can make some sandwiches while they're you're making a dinner like. Yeah. If they ain't had nowt to eat. So she says er, do I have to go that thing tomorrow? I says, well no, not if you're gonna get that money. She says, ooh! I'll go and buy a bag of coal and some more milk. She has to if the money ain't arrived. Well that's what she'll probably do. She'll have to come back up and see me. Yeah. If she comes back up She'll get it off of Ray. Is she Give it her. er, you see, he never said owt he just says, I'm gonna put it in an envelope and get it down to her but he never said how. Yeah. He'll probably get what's his name? Who? Er tt him! Which him? Him that lived on caravan site? That's him! I don't know his name. I don't. I forgot it. I've had some bad news. Why? He says what's the date? Says the thirtieth. This is shit! So I says, what's the matter? He says, no it don't matter. So I says, come on! What's the matter? He says, I don't know if there's gonna be any money in the bank out of my wages tomorrow. Oh! And you're not gonna get no housekeeping? No. I says, nothing? He says, if wo if I can get, he's go I mean he's got to get some sleep so he says, well I'll get up about twelve or one and says, and then I'll go down there. Mm. Cos he don't want me going there cos I fell arse over tip earlier! My leg's just going like weak. Well you got that thing on your chest haven't Yeah. you? Anyway, he says er we'll not be able to manage. I says, we will. Course you will! I'll buy you a sack I jus of taters! You can have that. A sack of taters! No, I meant But bloody useless chuffing taters! The one I've got's alright. I always get reds. I've got them from down there. They're crap! I always get reds. Always get reds. I ain't stopping too long tonight cos I'm gonna definitely watch an Home, not an Home and Away, a Neighbours cos I don't know what I'm watching the bloody hell's happening! I ain't seen it. Oh! So Er Just hang on a sec. I can still hear you. Well where you going? I'm gonna put kettle on. I'm gonna have a wee. Oh! . I'm always standing on them! Yeah. Always do But did Steve seem alright? Yeah! Great! I seen him in town and er He bought me . hey up Kath! Are you alright? I wanna be. Went over the doctors for them and said, can I help? And then er Jacqueline put her head down. And then J J and shouts, I told her! I've never met J J. And just, she just put her head down and walked by. Mm. So I don't know. but, but he said he paid the way she must have worked it so that he he , cos I never saw her he just said to say are you alright? Ah. er they walked past . Hey up Kath! Are you alright? Oh! So she said she never cottoned on. Yeah,sh she could have gone with him. I dunno. She said er, didn't notice what she looked like? I said, well I couldn't see her very well. And left it at that! Ah. I thought that's one way to do. It's too cold to stand in there. Yeah. You know unfortunately Bill says you know, after you left. Cos,th sa the moment he walked in the door, I'm still awake when he come to bed. Are you? And I thought, well I'm not Don't you go to sleep at all? Yeah. I'd had about as soon as he come to bed I cuddled up to him and I got up at ten to eleven. What well are you thinking about? Erm It ain't no money and that? No! It's, that and all is chuffing cold! I bet them kids are cold com walking down that road. I hope to God nobody's acce a you know, going down the road and Yeah. somebody's mugged her or mugged,yo my mind goes wa works overtime. You think all sorts, yeah. I hope But them kids don't she apologized! She says, I'm ever so sorry for coming up at that time she says, but I did notice Maggie's light weren't on that's Yeah. why I answered you Yeah. you know. And, she says, because if your light ha hadn't of been on she were going straight home. If it hadn't of been for Steve's car breaking down and him having Mm. to jump the battery and everything Yeah. would have been alright. So, but they're alright. But Bill said they She had summat to eat. Yeah. And she had a drink and that. She had a laugh with our Arthur. He thumped her! When he thumped her I'd thought he'd seen her before. Yeah. Erm Well, you don't have to see him before do you? Not with Arthur. And then he accused her, he says, keep your hand a keep your knee off my fist! Oh! He did. Keep your knee off my fist! I says, you cheeky git! And then they were grilling Jean. And then he insulted Jean. I thought, oh great! Yeah. Is he in? I've come to find out No. your problems. Ain't got none! But has he talked to ya? Did I tell ya, I told you what he did last night? I mean stupid! What did he do? He was mad! I was not out. I told you when He was mad? Yeah. But Mm. you didn't tell me that. I told you, that's it! Oh! He were in this morning he's er had summat to eat, well he's made it obvious. Yeah. Yeah. Erm I come in, and I went upstairs to see if he were in bed or not? Mm. Cos he's getting a bo he's Cadets tonight Yeah. like Yeah. it don't matter how bad he is, off Yeah. he goes to this stupid Cadets! Anyway, I come in ah, I went int kitchen, and I thought oh, there's a loaf out of freezer, and I looked at the loaf but there's only about four sandwiches in it. I this morning, I was telling you, he come in and he says to her, how come you're still awake? I says oh! I says, I've been coughing all night. Well Mm. sort of, but I weren't coughing all night like that. So he says, get yourself back to sleep. I says, I've gotta have a wee. He says, and then you'll go downstairs for a cup of tea and then you'll he says, get back into bed! Sort of, but his tone changed. So, I says, oh by the way, I said, I just thought I'd tell you Steven's back with J J and Jackie called up last night. I thought Yeah. I'll tell you two things What's he say?say? That's all I told him and then you come in. Oh! Well she said she were gonna call and let you know how she got on. Yeah. So it's about her lass as well. Cos I said seeing as you've got to go into town tomorrow Yeah. I says, don't take your money out the house,a Yeah. because you'll need that to get back in. Yeah. And so that's what I were doing you see. Ah. I've run out of such a good dog food again! We had! I forgot to order it. Guess what the dog had? My dog's having bacon and egg and that. Guess what my dog's had? Liver. And No. them taters? No. Burnt taters and gravy. taters and gravy? A full pound full, and he's wolfed them! Will he? Oh! Chuffing hell! Oh! But, he chewed them up! No, I says to her, I says Saturday, I says er if you get stuck, I says we're supposed to be going to see his nan into Ashley House up anyway, I told Bill I says, eh! I just thought just before er, I come over, I says, just thought I says, I suppose he'll take her over there Saturday won't he? Well him doing that job for Sue Yeah. and left it and walked off in the kitchen. There you are! You said it all. Just a bit of this and bit of that. Ah. So It's better innit? But he says her has Steven told you anything? And I says only that he's gone to back to J J and I says, and that he'd had enough. So he says, well he's not married to her. He's changed his mind again? No, not like that. He says, what was it, he says, I says J J's coming back. She said, well she's daft! And I didn't tell him that he came banging on the bloody door and all that. And er what did he say? He says, oh he'll make up his we er, same us as, make up his bloody mind but he's no he's not interested Kath. He ain't interested in the least! Like he says the other week, he said You've got enough problems of your own life That's it. no bugger else's! I says to Jackie, I says, you come up and see us, I says Jack, but don't push your problems on us. No. What I was on about me ringing is, she were talking in town, I says, oh, you know we're Bi I says if ever, I were talking about you first off She told me. and did she tell you what I said? Er oh, she says er oh yeah, you've got to ring before you go up to Maggie's or something Cos Bill's on shifts. Yeah. That were it. And you'll know, if he's in bed or owt? Yeah. Yeah. I told her that. She says, well I'm gonna ring Maggie anyway, she says, to make sure he's not there, she says, cos at the moment Yeah. if he's there, she says, it's not fair on Maggie so I'll ring her first. Yeah. I'm not going if he's there. So Yeah. it must be when she's coming. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, er she come about aye, that's what I were on about, I says, d'ya know I feel right sorry for Maggie out the lot of you! So, he says she says, why what d'ya mean you feel sorry for Maggie? I said I feel sorry for Maggie, I says, cos she always ends up in the bloody middle, I says, and she whittles to death, I says, till the minute you get some money to feed them bairns, I says she'll be awake nearly all night! I says, and it's not fair on Maggie. I says, one time she thought she'd lost you and kids. Mm. I says, then she gets you back, I says, and now she'll be thinking you're never gonna come down and see her, and this, that, other! I says, she were just making arrangements to come to your house depending Mm. what shift you were on. Yeah. And, she say, oh no! She says, I won't fall out with Maggie or owt like that. I says Mhm. well she'll be thinking that, I says, that's why I feel Oh! I, I, well there are you! I says to her, I says, half past ten Monday morning. What's that for? For her to come up. Oh! Will But she see them like? Dave is But she's coming Monday? She's coming Monday. I says, if it's cloudy storming, pissing down a rain don't come down. No. She says, well what I'll do is, I'll phone you when I get my Yeah. and let us know if she's coming down or otherwise I shall have to call down there. Well, I heard you say it were either Monday or Tuesday. But at least she can get food here Leave, what what? At least she can get a bit of food, even if it's only summat Yeah. summat warm for the kids. Yeah. But he says you're not upset are you? I says, no! I'm not bloody upset. I says, what have I gotta be upset you know. He said I thought if Bill could Cos if Bill knows that I get upset over it he won't have any of them there! He wouldn't. No! So I says, what I have gotta be upset for? I says, he's gone his way, she's she's down there. I'll see her. Yeah. And I'll see him. Yeah. Er chuffing hell! But I ain't Well they're alright. I'm not bothered now. She's getting some money, and I know for a fact she getting it. She found her family allowance book. Yeah. That were first thing I said to her this morning, I says d'ya ask Yeah. Maggie? I says, did you look for it? She says, yeah, she says, she, I had a look I found it our . Yeah. And she says, soon as she gets the money she's gonna give it to me to give to yous. I think she might give you it Monday. That fiver? Yeah. I says, don't forget. She says, oh I'll not forget. Now, she were a bit upset cos I bought her dinner and that, and she were weren't too happy cos I paid her bus fare. Mm. But I were trying to get through to her. I thought she were gonna cry! She looked it didn't she? No! Cos she ran up the garden. Oh! You know sh hid round the car. I says, yeah it's you, you've put the bloody mockers on her! When did she go? She didn't wanna go. Er Didn't she? No. Er about five minutes before you did the lollipop. And she was looking across to here like, are you gonna call me in? I don't think she's wants to go home. D'ya know, that phone has non-stop rung! It gets worse! Yeah. Hello. Hello. Hello! Well D'ya know you get daft! I'll ring you back then. So ring me back. Okay? Okey-cokey. Bye . You what? Ring her back so she can ring you back? Er, she rings me up to tell me to ring her back up to ring her back Yeah. and then, she tells me to put the phone down, and she rings me back. So tha that is, mam picks phone up at other end. Oh! So But she could still pick it up. Yeah I know. Can I have this bottle Kath? What bottle? That one? It's only one I've got left. Mm. Shouldn't have fetched it. Hello! Is Sarah there? Yes please. It's Kath. Yeah. I saw you at party. That Kath. Hello! Ta duck . D'ya know, he sounds right like his dad! That was Dave's dad. I thought it were Dave! Oh! Oh Oh! I wonder if she's got her inheritance she's Hello! just talking about you to you Maggie actually Dave. I were just talking about you to Maggie then. Have you got your inheritance? Go on. Tell me! Tell me! Tell me! You we okay then. Right. What? I told you, this phone drives me nuts! Because often What's that in aid of? Eh? Well, she lives with her boyfriend's parents Yeah. and it's their phone Yeah. but they've had ten pound a week telephone stamps Yeah. but she doesn't like ringing. She likes to ring you to tell you, to do it Yeah. Well go on then. Hello!you're not gonna do nowt! You, getting yoursen a pair of boots, and you're put it int bank you said. Tell her, I want a Ferrari! Maggie wants a Ferrari. Yeah. You want them high interest ones. Yeah. I thought you were gonna spend it then ! What were that? Yep. Oh yeah! Yeah. And then you're gonna by yoursen a car? Oh smashing ! And my car? A what a? My car . Oh. Maggie says you've gotta buy an a car. An a car . What's an a car? Ne'er mind. Ne'er mind! How much d'ya get? Smashing! I'm pleased for you. Ya. Ya. Ya. Did you? Yeah. To make sure you were you. Ya. Oh! Ya. Yeah. Well I don't blame you! I would. Why? Well what's wrong with that? Ah! That's not fair. Yeah. I'll ask them. Yeah. I am, pleased for you. Course, you've got your thousand of your own. So you're rich! You can actually do what you want. You can sit there and say, I could go so and so if I want, but not bother. Well what happened with your dad? That's a fact! Did you ask him? What er, what happened? Ya. Ooh! Sounds like they had barney. Dunnit? Well she might. Yeah. Yeah. Oh! Well, so long as you're happy. I'm not on about money, so long as you're happy, yourself. Yes. That is a good idea! There's one thing, if you sleep in, you can jump int car and drive in. Yeah. Aha. Oh smashing! I like that! Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, she's got plenty of time. Yeah. I should hope you are! Yes. Oh! Yeah. I've been to our Arthur's today. He says, have you seen Sarah? I says, yeah, I told her yo told her that you wanted to see her. He says, I've got a letter here for her you know. I said, well, you could have told me that to tell her! I'm still waiting for my cake! I'll starve to death! She wants her cake. Hang on! Hang on! Cos he showed me, and then says, I'm sure that's from a bank. But that's what that's one of reasons he wanted you to go up cos he's got this letter. So now you know. Tell her I'll starve to death, cos I've not had a bit of cake! That's why I said, it looks like it's from bank. It's in a white envelope wi you know where you've got that clear plastic thingy and it's got your name and address? Well, it's one of them. Not a thing. I said it's from bank. But that's why he wants you to go up, to get your letter. Well he goes to work at half seven so if you go before that you'll be alright. Have you? Yeah. Yeah. Oh you're alright. I'm waiting for Home and Away and that so I can start the tape. And having a and having a gossip with Maggie. Oh yeah! Tha I got a message. She says, she's starved to death because she hadn't had no cake ! Say, I'm counting my calories for that bit of cake! And she says, tell her, tough! And she says, tell you, she's counting the calories for that bit of cake! Will be a bit an'all. Tell if she wants Eh? a week off she can have it. Did your mam no she didn't, the cake weren't even cut. Yeah, she did. Well, you got some. I would take well you could still take her some. Have you? What you got? Yeah. That's a good one! I like that one. Well, take her with you today. What time's the thingy? Good! It's about time you treated yoursen. Yeah. Oh! Good. Maggie's got hers bad. Maggie's right bad! She's got a funny thing on her chest and she can't breathe properly . Don't you shove them germs in this house, she's got to come here! Yeah, well tell her, she can come to my funeral next week cos I've got to do my lollipop tomorrow night! You can go to her funeral next week cos she's got to do my lollipop tomorrow night! I'm going to collect my winnings tomorrow! Yeah. So Maggie's doing lollipop. You see i my appointment's at half past two and lollipop's at half past three, well I won't be back will I? It's a two hour presentation. Well yeah, half past two us appointment's for but Steve's got to put his car int garage to have it wheel bala ba ba balanced Balanced tomorrow morning. And, then he's coming home, getting a bath, and we're getting ready and going. Yes. He no he can't, he's got to go to garage at half past nine. Northbridge. Well, it's better than five o'clock in the morning int it? Yeah. Yeah. Ye ah! Yeah. Your coffee's cold. And it has gone cold. It is cold. She's saying my coffee's gone cold. I'll left it open. Yeah. Yeah. You're gonna get married. Oh! Smashing! I should hope so! That's it. Well you do, that's true. No. Not a thing! Er, he were in all day yesterday and, then he disappeared this morning. I went to town, come back and he'd gone. So I don't know. So well, there'll be somebody before weekend! Yeah. Oh I hadn't told you he'd met anybody yesterday. Didn't I? Anyway, I'll let you finish your dusting and that and er Yeah. Cos I'm gonna see to my Gary. get watching your Home and Away. Yeah. Yes. Well I'll be in! No, I've been today. Okey-cokey. Let me know what your letter is, it might be a big massive cheque again! Bye ! Four thousand, one hundred and seventy something. Ooh! That's what she got. So, she didn't do bad did she? No. No, I thought I won't cos she And it's just an uncle that give them I'll got that for you. I'm gonna get get on that settee and I ain't moving when I've seen to her. Ooh! I've gotta have my Lemsip. Have you watched your Home and Away yet? I've watched that. Ain't much good. I ain't see any because I were with Jacqueline weren't I? Mm. Trouble is, I don't know. Boring! Cos I'm on I did er bloody fed up of watching that now! I want to see what happened, er, it finished just where he says that he'd been accused of something. Mm. Yeah. Taking money when he'd got erm he accuses him of taking a bribe when Thanks! Oh! I thought that's what you wanted to know. I know I want to know, but I'm gonna watch it in a bit! Oh! I've seen, that's where it finished! Oh! Where he were being accused. What time's Gary going? About quarter past. Mm. Well she's waiting for Home and Away to come on as well. Oh! Cos she's been out in town all morning. And I thought, ooh! Jolly good! What were you sa d'ya know, I pulled yo er wrong ones out. I pulled them out of Tuesday paper. No different to on front of there, cos they're exactly the same numbers as what's Yeah. I on know, I've seen them. the back. I don't even know if I'd like to jump them. I can't be bothered. Well I don't mind doing one card, but I hate it when I've got about seven or eight of them chuffing things! Oh! I know. They get on your nerves. Make a bloody song and dance of it! Don't half get on your nerves! It gets on my nerves anyway! I chucked them all off last week. I've gotta make the bloody bed yet! I ain't made my bed. Well you've got out of it ain't he? Well I er come in, picked all stuff up off the floor lit the fire and I think that were it. That's all I've done. And I washed the pots. Cos he hadn't washed the pots. So I washed them er went out lollipop come in, been answering phone on and off. Cos them from Thirsk they've rung twice. Why? Er, first of all to confirm that we're still going tomorrow. Oh. And I says, yeah, we'll still be there tomorrow er, same time and everything. Mhm. Then she phoned back about ten minutes later and she said wondered if we could come at eleven o'clock in the morning. Mm. And, I says no, definitely not. That's out. Mm. And I explained that Steve were taking to Car. car into garage. Mm. I says to her, I don't know how long it's gonna be int garage, I says, so she says, well can you change it to a different day then? I says, no, I says cos my husband gets three days off once a month, I says, and tomorrow Saturday, and Sunday, are the only three days. Yeah. I said, and it'll be a month before like Yeah. and he'll have changed his mind, and he'll say Yeah. oh no, if we can't go in January Yeah. I'm not going in February! Yeah. You know how he goes on. Yeah. So I told her that, and she says, oh fair enough then. So left it Mm. at half past two tomorrow. Mm. But, Jacqueline were worried to death about lollipop! You're supposed to be on lollipop, she says, what you gonna do? We're still sat in thingy at Mm. we walked out of there at twenty five past twelve and all she kept saying is, what about your lollipop? What about your lollipop? What Mm. about your lollipop? I says, what about it? Mm. She says, ain't you got no kids? I says, no, I says Mm. there int none, I says, we're alright. Mm. I says, I'm only doing morning tomorrow. Mm. And I says, I'm not doing dinner tomorrow neither! Mm. So we'll see how that goes off. Mm. She'll give you a description, when you get there, walk towards where the building, down the steps, and main reception area's in front of you. Oh and got to park in main parking lot. Oh! I must remember to tell Steve that. Mm. But, I don't know. I'm gonna have to phone our Sue Yeah. Tell Sue to phone Steve Yeah. I'm leaving Steve to phone me. Yeah. Yeah, he only shoved ten pence in to tell me about that giro. And I explained that er I'd met her in town, which I did, didn't I? Yeah. I says, and er we got it all sorted out, I says, but she doesn't get nothing till next Wednesday. Yeah. And that, straight away he come back and said that he'd got it. Well, we knew he'd got it because Yeah. they told her Well they told him yesterday didn't they? Well I don't know about that. But they told her Yeah. that he'd got a form and he was fetching it back in this afternoon and they was handing it over this afternoon. Three. Now, they told her that you see. Mm. And cos I says, well what does she do int meantime? I says, she ain't got anything! Yeah. Cos he might have said sod it! I'm not gonna give her it. Or it could be three or four days before it arrives. No, it'll be here today. Either today or tomorrow morning at the latest. Because Well what does he do? Just shove it He'll probably put it, poke it through the letter box. Ah, well she's alright then. Well when he said how much he'd got, I thought seventy six and seventy three is hundred and forty six. Yeah. Right. So he's took seventy three and he's giving her seventy three she would have earned sixty three pound on her own! That's a tenner a week they're giving for him! That book she sent back, it Yeah. were sixty three quid. Yeah. She got seventy three cos of Jonathan. Only ten pound different! Someone's at the door! Is that my babe? I don't know. It's Florence Nightingale! Hello dear! Florence Nightingale! Mm mm. Well Don't say nothing. Every other time like either he's been too late Er, you have to give it a kick! Oh! It don't shut. Oh! I'm trying duck. Er, say that again. I've always been either too late or whatever Yeah. to call Yeah. so I thought if, er, I bet you seen me dashing past thinking, she's an ignorant pig her, not calling in! I've seen you on t' bus and I've er, seen you sculting, and I thought Yeah! So Well I thought, well I better go and see her else she'll be playing around with me. Mm. Then how's Florence? Alright. How are you? Not too bad. And it's tea Oh. with still no sugar in it this time! That's right. Thank you. I were miles away! I were making a cup of tea, I'm chucking in a cup. She went, brurgh! I went Oh!! I can't stand it with sugar in. Mm. D'ya know, I got weighed on my scales other day, and I thought, I were eleven stone again. And I thought, well, I'm gonna have to do summat about this! Anyway, when I got on the scales I'm ten stone three. Kevin said They vary don't they? No that were my scales. Oh! With the home scales. So I were ten stone three. I thought well, I've only put stone on. But, I put most of that on since I moved. Have you? Since just before I moved and it triggered it off. Oh! Getting all stressed up. Yeah. To move. Do you like it where you are then? Oh yeah! I love it. Good. Have you changed your colour of your hair? It's my own colour near enough. Is all that blonde out now then? Yes. But that Yeah. that hadn't had no sun you see. Ah! It's been cut, but it's never had no sun. All this has. Yeah. And it ble sun bleaches my hair to start off with. Oh! But, you can't see no roots, and I ain't done it since way before Christmas. Aye, I know. Cos you were cutting a load out weren't you? Yeah. Ah! And I cut I've cut it twice since I've had it cut just Mm. before Christmas. I like it that colour, don't you? Mm. So Natural like. Thought you'd had it done. I know. Looks nice. I keep thinking, well shall I colour it again or shall I just go for that bit there? Ooh no! It looks nice. Have you heard off Mrs Oogypip? Who's Mrs Oogypip? Cow bag! That's before you start! So what Her. Yeah. I, I didn't get in while er I thought she were ten to four and I got a phone message off my daughter-in-law would I ring her. So I rang, and she said er, oh it don't matter now I've got somebody else. I thought well, I can't do it anyway. Where were that for? For staying in. She said, well we've got somebody to travel to it. I said, well what d'ya think I'm gonna do like? I know. Bloody crackers she is, that woman! Honestly! She's crackers! She's never asked me to go since before the big holidays. Yeah. They rang me up at eight o'clock one morning to be there Yeah. at Stainforth and then that'll be about quarter past eight Yeah. and I were still in bed Yeah. at five to eight it were! And I'd got to get up, get dressed, get out catch a bus Yeah. by time I'd of got to Stainforth, it'd been nine o'clock ready for Yeah. coming home! Yeah, But I didn't realize that once they'd said it like, you know, I just Yeah. said, oh I said, nay I've got a dentist appointment this morning. Yeah. He says, oh! He says have you got your own transport? I said, no. He said, oh! Then he must have realized that it would be too late anyway. Mm. And then when I got up and saw time, I thought oh bugger me! Yeah. Well that's a bit bloody late weren't it? Yeah! Tt! Oh! Stupid buggers! Oh! You got some new curtains missus. They're nice! Marie. Eh? Marie. You crafty pig! I were down at their house and she'd got these and she'd They were too long weren't they? she took them down. They were for our house but not hers. Mm. She took them down and that, and washed them and d'ya know, she's daft as a brush! Honest! She's daft as a brush. She come round, she says, do you like my curtains? I'm just about to put them back up. She got a blue three piece suite, a blue carpet, there's blue int curtains, and I says them curtains don't match your three piece suite, they look stupid! So she says, what d'ya mean they look stupid? I says, pure white backgrounds! I says, with them co They're not pure white. I know, it's green. Mm. And she believed me that it didn't match three piece suite or carpet and it was stupid, and that sh and she says what shall I do about them ? No! I said You've got enough cheek for another set of teeth you! Yeah. I know. Her and Gary took all the bottoms off to make tie backs Yes. Me and Gary didn't you? altered them. We did well! Yeah. Here, we haven't done this. Get the, telephone for it. But I thought it were good! Mm. Mm. What did you say? Trying to decide whether to take them down off my windows and put some poles up. Well what you gonna do? Don't know. Cos I were gonna have these off you weren't I? Aha! These metal ones? Cos I were gonna have your wooden ones weren't I? Yeah, I said I would probably get you some. Oh! Right. And I don't know whether they've got with the I don't know whether they're wide enough that way I've shoved them in. for my blinds to pull out. Yeah but my other don't come out like, long enough. Don't it? Ee oh! Cos they've got to be, I thought it would actually cos the Right, I'm gonna go and see to my little'un. blinds are five inch wide. Oh eh! Yeah. Them drop things. Yeah. Unless I put them on the outside wood. But there again, they're gonna be about, what? What? Phone me tomorrow night. Okey-cokey. So I can see your winnings. Oh yes! And they're about six inch away from my Tell you all about it. windowsill. She's won a bloody Ferrari int she? Eh? Ask Doreen for our She tells me fibs. winnings tomorrow. I told her! Not yet! A secret. She's not sure if she's gonna take the Ferrari or the Jag are you? No. I'm gonna have one of those. Oh! Well, come on. Tell me. I won another competition. You jammy ratbag! What you won? A thousand pounds worth of holiday accommodation in the U K. England. In where? In England. Yeah. And, I really had to answer these questions. Int she bloody jammy, eh? I don't know how you do it! Cos I'm clever! I must be What you gonna do with that one then? I don't know. They haven't told her that. Not seen it yet. Ah! See you Flo. I'll see to Gary. Yeah, okay then. Right. I'll see you later Maggie. Bye. Bye duck. That record player don't bloody play! Oh! That's perfect is that one innit? That one. My records nee go it it plays for a bit, then it goes brurgh! Er! Ee! Ee! Ee! Ee! Brurgh! Is that your belt? And then it goes alright. Might be your belt? No. There's something to do with the slow, fast thing. Ah! Yeah. I'm sick of it! Can't listen to my records. Gee! What time do you start in that place? About half in between half past five and quarter to six. Oh! Supposed to start at six, but we go in earlier to get stuff ready. Yeah, I've seen you going in about half fiveish. Ya. Cos I've sometimes caught bus up from other end, if I've gone our Neil's or summat. I won another competition as well! Wha what for? I won some money. Eh? I won some money. What did you win? I don't know till February. I got we Well how d'ya get these competitions like? I do them int papers and all sorts. But I were right disappointed at that thousand pounds worth of holiday accommodation! I won second prize. I got that and a midi hi-fi system. Yeah. But presentation's tomorrow. People going and collecting and I'm hoping first prize winner's there. I'll swap er, midi hi-fi system and that for her first prize. Now, you know Irene? Mm. And she's sixty five. Well you know Chris is in Africa? Well her granddaughter gets married in July. She got invitation and everything, there's no way on God's earth she can get six hundred pound. Yeah. No way! If her and Fred go it's twelve hundred quid. So I, every time it says win some Air Miles and things like that, and that Yeah. competition I entered was win a thousand pounds worth of Air Miles. And I thought, oh great! I'll enter that competition, you never know I might win it. I'll give it to Irene so she can go to Africa. Mm. And, cos it's twenty seventh of July you know, wedding. Yeah. And I thought, if I can win owt like that it'll be nice for her. Cos she's got a great grandson she's never laid eyes on. Yeah. So, I thought, I'll do that. And I won second prize which is England! Tt! So, that one must have been for abroad Yeah. and this, second prize, is for England. Yeah. And I got England. You see, first prize hasn't got, you see, because, they put your number in a draw, for the person to win the midi hi-fi system Yeah. and I got the midi hi-fi system. So I've got the Yeah. thousand pound, and that. But I've got to use mine int U K. D'ya know what Ma May did? What? Told you about her having that dish and it went funny. Satellite? Yeah. Yeah. And it were a, one of them four hundred and odd pound ones. Right? So, the bloke, the young lad that put the other one in said well you know, I'll mess about with these. Says how much would you want to get rid of it for? She says, oh I don't know. He says,wha she says, how much d'ya think it's worth? He said about a tenner. You what? Cos, there was something wrong with the receiving part of the dish. Right? Mhm. So what did she do? She give him a tenner and she give him that box with bloody channel change on! Kept Oh! She is And, and the remote the remote for it and all she were left with was the decoder. Now that don't work on its own. I know, you need another one. So I'm gonna buy it off her. Yeah. I've got that decoder in my house. You need that system for it like our Arthur's got. Like we've got. Yeah. That one and that one. I know. It's no good without the other. I know. You'd have kept it if you'd have had that. I know. Oh! And I kept saying to her, I need summat else. She said, no I don't then. She said, oh yes! She says i she rang me up later, she says ooh I remember now! I give him it wit her, with dish. Yeah. I said you dizzy swine! I said, it were hundred and odd together. She said no, that was worth hundred on its own. I said, no it isn't. Cos it's no good on its own. Yeah. D'ya know he never does this! It's a good job I always remember to pick it up innit? Well, cos er tt, oh I'm so peed off! I've left my I bet you were. or I've lost it on t' way running for bus. Yeah. So what you got to do? Cos I had to go to doctors, you see, at quarter past two. Then I were talking to our Karen to about quarter to three Yeah. and then I sa I looked in bag. I don't know what made me look in the bag, but it weren't . So I went over to thingy said oh! She's just gone to your flat to take it, she's just gone to your house to take it you. Yeah. I says, oh well I better wait here for her coming back, cos I'll probably pass her on t' way. Mm. So I waited here, I waited nearly half an hour! And didn't she come? So the woman come back mine here and I went home with it. And I thought, oh! I walked, er, you know, get on bus and come straight to after I Yeah. and then I thought well I can't cos, I've got er calculator in this bag and I haven't got it on me you see. So I went home for it. I don't know whether I put my bus pass in my pocket. Cos I come downstairs, I thought, well I'm gonna start coming downstairs and upstairs when I'm not in a hurry. Yes. What's that? To help you get in? Try and that lose some weight. So, whether I've lost my bus pass running down the stairs and then running through town, I don't know. Have you had to pay full fare then? Yeah. Eighty five pence. Oh! Urgh! And I've just paid four pigging quid! It starts today. D'ya have to go and pay again? If I've lost it, I don't know what'll happen. I'll have to pay again, yeah. I'll have to pay full fare on Sunday now, both ways. Tt! Oh! Cos tonight, I get a lift home. Yeah. On a Thursday I get a lift home, but Sunday I have to go up here and back. It's gonna cost you a fortune cos you need photographs and everything for it int it? I know. Oh! Bloody hell! Choo! I hope I ain't lost it. Well I did a quick trip to our Arthur's cos I lent him some money today. Do you know, I wish he'd get paid same week we do! He gets Yeah. paid monthly, and we get paid monthly. Yeah. And we get paid the week before he does. Oh well! And you can guarantee, he was on t' phone on Saturday, he phoned me up on Monday, he phoned me on Tuesday and said, now I remember what I wanted. I says, well I can tell you what you phoned up three times on t' row for, I says, you've no money again have you? I says, Steve gets paid this week, and you know that for a fact! I says, you're after some pennies aren't you? Yeah. He said, well are you gonna come down on Thursday and drop me fifty? I says fifty! What d'ya think I am, a multi- millionaire you? And then I took pity on him and lent him forty. Well you might know you would! I thought, I'll lend him forty. Well he gets paid next Friday so I'll Mm mm. get it back on Saturday. Only trouble is, it's me that pays four quid, you know, a quid here, quid back to lend him it, and then I've Yeah. got to pay it again to go and collect it back off him! Oh! You should get it off him. Well I'm gonna say to him in future That's fifty four quid bus fare. I'm gonna say to him in future, it's costing me four quid You know Linda ? Linda ? Yeah. Oh I know who you're on about. Yeah. It's out I never ever call her that. Yeah well that's the name anyway. And er anyway, I forgot you wouldn't know her as that. But, you see I called her that because everybody else called her that. Mm. Well Excuse me. You're not allowed in this entrance at all. There's another one just round the corner. See, this one's for kids only. For cars, if you just go to end Mm mm. it's Discount, there's a few houses then there's a gateway, back entrance into school. Okay then. Okay? Yeah. Timed that just right then. Come on Krista! She's still got Weetabix all over her top. Has she? How did you manage in this fog this morning? Weren't so bad. Better than before? Yeah. Said it's right bad up other It was end. It were this greyish thing you know, if I got, as long as I got my car warmed up it took frost,i ice off of window. Er, it weren't locked up again though were it? No. Cos you had trouble didn't you? I know. Well, you see, one car, one door unlocks all of them. Yeah. Morning! Morning! Morning! You see, you don't let your back doors or inside or outside. Oh! You have to make it Oh aye! Yeah, they are, yeah. So you see when it i when I had, I'd got one of thems done but you can't o help others out. No. It's like You having a coffee this morning? Yeah. If I'm not here, I'm int house. Yeah. Okay then. Wait! You'll get a smack you will! You, pardon? Alright. Well, you frightened him to death then! I don't, you must have been miles away this morning. Oh ! Just thinking, I'm not all there . Oh ho ! It gets going and I'm at I actually was I gonna say something.. Oh I'm always saying that. A lot of people do that a Yeah, but he does talk broad Yorkshire! It's like er who were it? Er, Charlie. Charlie er He goes none of those northeners! That's it! But Charlie's Scottish and I've saving bags of money, you know. You don't think they talk like that. Why not? You ju well You talk how you talk, and that's it. Well yous do. Yeah, but I mean they're not just you know, just well off, he are well well off ! Are they? Yep. Yeah. I just think they work. Yeah well He worked at Lincoln don't he? No, no. Yorkshire. Put it back over there. Cos when I went Cos when I went to my mother's in Lincoln he used to always say to me go on, say summat. You should have heard what they were doing to him. They were right rotten to him! You know, when Donny lost against Lincoln? Yeah. Well they were up the road from Donny and they . We always said that he had a yellow belly! Who did? He says, I'm not bothered. I don't even like football ! Cos what they Poof! He had summat to pick up, so they picked up What are they? That's what I'm all for getting er tape recorder. Tight sods! Leave the poor girl! He had to chuck in summat. Twenty five pound voucher. That's no bloody good! I want that! And twenty five quid. He's not, he's after microphone. I'll tell you what he's after. I'm after all of it. Bloody marvellous! You've got all of it! It's same as your one. It isn't. Yours don't have Sellotape all over it. That has. It's got patches on it. I had taxi driver on it this morning. Oh you did taxi driver did you? Yeah. Again! And I says to him, you're not supposed to use this entrance. What at school? Er I told him about the other one. It's a different one. They're sending a different one every bloody week! I thought, marvellous! I'm spending week after week after week. Why don't the one driving the week before tell the one the week after that they've got to go in drivers' entrance and not in bloody one! Daft! Thingamabob nearly got run over this morning! Who? You know,wi green coat? Dark hair. Sometimes she talks to you, sometimes she don't. He says she's awful sometimes. Ah! Yeah. Her. Mm. She come miles away! Is she a copper's wife? Yeah. Wait till she tells her husband she nearly got run over. That young lad coming on a bike. Yeah. That's him. It's Chris . I shouts, eh! What you doing? And she went, get back! Quick! Quick! She saying, come on. Come on. Car coming. And I'm going to car I thought you idiot! Yeah, she's was a copper's wife. Mm. I never knew that. I knew it . In a way Steven. Her hair's cut like that, she gotta have it cut. And she pushes a pushchair and she's got a little lad about ? I'll show you her anyway. But I don't think you've ever seen her cos you always come about ten to. Oh. If it's the one that I mean What? I know what I meant to ask you. Aha. Why do you come for that alarm? Cos it's his not Marie's. Well he's selling it. It was a, he bought it he's not selling that one. He's selling the Widgie He's got a Widgie a posh Widgie Yeah. Seventeen quid. Yeah, he's got a posh one which the rest of the alarm he's putting with that. He bought it for that erm er her what, the caravan? Yeah. What, did she have it on t' ? Astra. He bought it for the Astra. Yeah but, she says she bought it him for Christmas. Well he says he bought it. So I don't know who bought it. Somebody must have bought it! I were gonna take out of that too. Well he's still got Astra then? Did you know about that? He never mentioned it. He just mentioned caravan. Well Marie just said that he'd got it. Cos I says, you have seen it in passing. Have you got a house ? Ah! Maggie's still having trouble with that. Aye. Apparently, they keep getting er this erm what was it? Bill phones up says, can I speak to somebody? Right? And I says, er I'm sorry they're not available at the moment. You see, they've got a card of the fella that did the thingy so, when they put him onto this other fella he says, er, yeah, his name were Mr so and so. So, they says, well I'll tell you what we'll try and find this Mr so and so, and, we'll get in contact with you. So, he waited in for two days nothing! So, he's rang every day since and he keeps getting this person, that says er er, we'll pass your message, we'll pass your message, we'll get back to you, I'll get back to you. I says, you know what you want to do now? I says, you want to phone up and say look, I want to speak to someone in authority and I want to speak to him today! Because, if not, I'm going to see my solicitor in the morning, cos if you won't speak to me, you can speak to him instead! I says, and I bet they call you back. Well er,wha er what has done about it then? They won't ring back. But I said, just threaten with solicitors then. You can't understand anybody signing summat and not reading it can you? He can't bloody see! He's blind as a bat! Can't she see? Maggie wears glasses, but she won't outside. Nearly two hundred quid he paid for a pair of glasses and she sat on them didn't she? Yeah. Well I don't give a damn what I look like in bloody glasses. In fact,, I feel naked without bloody glasses on now. If I've got to wear them, I've gotta wear them! At the moment I haven't Has any more then? Your glasses. No. I don't put them in my bag. It is, I know, I do this just get legs out of bed and T-shirt. Right. Here are. Where's my goggles? As soon as I get my legs out of bed, that's first thing I pick up, my glasses. Oh it int. I'll tell you what it ain't exactly Yeah, I except jumpers. Yeah. That's so as you can watch it looking at telly! Yeah ! More than likely! More than likely! Don't be daft! It's always me what's And I was a young men in my prime! Can't see his blooming ! Well he's got someone to talk to his while Oh yes! he's in there ! Oh he's just I expect you'd be alright if he talked back to you. You'd know about it then ! I thought he was gonna take the rest of this off. Yeah, you blank er bits off. I've got headphones and everything so you can come back to a certain and take it Why? She said Yeah. to leave swearing and all that on. And she says to leave swearing on. She says, but if you listen to it, and then if you don't think that should be there you can go over it. You could Bloody than listen to them myself. No, Flo come I stopped her conversation half way through. Oh she's No, if I'd have cut time they wouldn't hear no conversation! It's a bit like with John and Janice. You don't hear nowt. Cos you can gather as soon as Paul gets in I think I was asleep. He's like that aren't you? He's Yeah but he sat up last night, he sat up last night we was gonna watch the ten o'clock movie on telly with me. Cos it finishes at half eleven, so I says to him, oh great! You're not working tomorrow you can watch movie wi me. He says, yeah, alright. So I got my cushions and I laid here and he got his cushions and he were laid there and he says to me, are you taping this? I says, no I'm gonna watch it. I thought he's going to sleep again. Quarter past ten, turned round, snoring away! Paul we were dreaming last night. Yeah. But sh I've been, I work out, I feel . Working outside. Is that it? Aye. In this weather. Yeah. When you get in I get int car, and it's warm so I end up switching heater and winding window down. When I get in here there's nice fire. That's it. And then it gets me. Stay in the car then! Then, he were being a pig last night. I says to him, with him breaking down other night his dinner went to dog. The night before I kept it hot, and hot, and hot, and hot, and by time we did get it at quarter to eight I says to him, oh this is horrible, this! Ooh! I had some So last night, I thought, I won't do anything till he comes in but we'd got company and er, they went outside, they were having a look at car engine and that, telling us what were wrong, you know. And, so I says to him d'ya fancy going to fish shop? So he decided he wanted chips, pie, curry, loads of scraps and bread and everything and he eat every bit of it up! Didn't you? I were hungry! I bet you get as fat as a pig! I am! So what? He's not bothered! Well he says, said to me I don't know why you're going to keep, er th to slimming thing cos you, because I can't tell no difference with you. Can you tell? You what? I can tell, yeah. That's all that counts. I can tell. Said it's a waste of bloody money going! You used to have two buck teeth but you haven't now. Oh! I don't know. Yeah. You know, before you couldn't see your thingy that Right! Where am I going? No. You're going to National Tyres on North Bridge. And they're going to balance your wheels. Oh I know. Checking and balancing. I don't know about checking and balancing, I just says balancing. I'll let you Can you get insurance to pay for it? It's four pound something a wheel there. Oh! That's dear. Is So that dear? well they says to go there, get an invoice take it into the insurance and they will send us a cheque back out. Usually, when they balance your wheels they they check the tracking. They're gonna deduct it. I phoned up put Maggie on t' phone, told her sa tell her what this bloke had said and, they said, just a minute, that they'll get in touch wi insurance and phone us back. Well they phoned back and they said, can you tell your husband to take his car to National Tyres er, that insurance has sent him, and could they give him an invoice for the insurance company. Like, we pay, give Yeah. them an invoice, he's got to take the invoice into insurance they will deduct that off the value I think The value. send us it, and they can have the rest. Yeah. And they says, check it. Well they won't give him it straight away, they'll see to you first. They always do. We haven't finished yet. But I says, that they were, I, that he weren't satisfied when it were vibrating and that. And he says, gerrit checked or summat. So he's gonna ask them what he does about the vibrating. National Tyre, I don't think they'll do bonnet. No! I dunno. But, you're going in insurance. I know. You're telling them yoursen. I'm sick of telling them! I'm sick of car! Wish we'd never heard of car dealers. Kirksandle Car Care They're no good! D'ya know, everybody we've spoke to since then, they says, why the heck didn't you say summat? You shouldn't have took it there! One fella were told they did his erm summat to his engine and it blew up didn't it? Blew up, yeah. His engine blew up! Er, Dennis, who we were talking to last night, he says, you must be absolutely mental! He says that his mate bought a car from there and, he were a undecided about this clocking this time, what's, what call it? He'd er wound the clock back thirty thou. But you know on his log book, last person that had the car he went down to see them, and they told him that it were thirty thousand over from when they sold it. Yeah, but when they got it, you don't have to ask for owt er, M O T. He went to see person who selt it. Might have got old M O T. And, they were on, more on about that. I says, ah marvellous! I says, you don't hear a word about anybody till you go. Until after. And then afterwards Well, I mean, look at me, me with my motor car I mean, it hadn't done all th as many miles . True. Mine has, mine's Actually, it's not been on t' road. I mean, you tell somebody that and they're forced to believe you are you? Well that mini, we got it from Hutchins. Guess what? Mine wants two more miles on my clock and I've done a thousand mile on my . I was looking at it other day. Chuffing hell! I I'm doing a thousand mile a week! I know, but well mine's a W registered, yours is a D! I know. It shows tha It's not much. I only go a fair way. I only do Irene's on it, and that's my lot. And it's Well I do more miles . Well you, I mean to say that I've had mine a long time and you ain't done much mileage on it. Well mine's according to my log book there's three on it. I've heard of and I've had it three year. And I ain't done, I ain't got it to a thousand yet. But, it's all ready for M O T now. Supposed to take it in for M O T. Well mine ain't been used for three month. It's your electrics innit? Yeah. Mind, usually after three years. I've had it three years. They'll get a bit of the an holiday round here sometimes, you never know, might be able to come down. Well, if you're in knock before you go and start it. Well if I come down and see Steve and Kelly ! That's right. There's a story of mine can't go away. He says, we've got in caravan. Have you? Where you going? Skegness. I shouldn't have asked should I really! It's a lovely place Skeggy! Did I just give him some money, I didn't did I? Don't know. I think so. Oh! Better give him some money. I was gonna give him cheque book and then I thought, no. I tell you summat, if I don't get one of them bags off of. No. Cos you've already told her. Er, cos she come today and she says forgot book. Eh yeah. Aye, if I don't get one of them bags she'll not no, I'll can't get no more . There's plenty of folks don't either. That's true. I know quite a few. Sarah does it. My mate she does it. Er well She did up to moving but she lived at Anthorpe and she's not mentioned it since, so I'll have to ask her if she does Avon. Cos I used to get it off of her. The cat. He's got a hump. He's quite hairy ain't he? You what? She says she's only five bags didn't she? Yeah. No! She's not allowed five bags, she's got to have an order of five bags. One for hersen, and four other people. Yes, I know. That's her Five bags and over. I thought she might have five. No, if she ain't got five bags then, the what you call it? She can't have any. I thought she said well I'm allowed five bags. No, she can't have anything. I got a sarong. Er an Avon bag actually I got er three bags with Avon. Handbag er Three? Yeah, a shopping bag that's alright I've got like a fly bag, a blue one. well mine's whi it's a yellow bag. I got, a shopping bag, that were a creamy colour with wi A's all over it. The handbag is navy blue, with white on, and it's, like little navy blue dots on it. Let's have a look, I don't think I've got that one. Er Oh! Umbrella. Yeah. I've got umbrella, a blue one. I got oh I got a what they call an'all! Erm erm I did! It's Oh ! You know when er, you're going on away or on t' beach or summat and you put your toiletries in and you can put a towel and that? Yes. Like that. Ah yes! Like you brought Caroline for her, cos she's literally to cut Paul's hair. Yeah. Sort of, with that figure It's this one int it? Yeah. Yeah. And you just draw I got her one of them. them in. What I do is, I roll a towel up and that, and put, take them down on t' beach, you know, cos I could put my purse in and that. Yeah. A bit of money. That's what I do. Er it's got handle at head int it? Yeah. Yeah. And you bought Caroline's. She can put her, her cutters in. Mm. Cos she had them in a plastic bag. Mm. It's erm Yeah! I'm looking at you! I call them a beach bag, but it's not. It's like a A toiletries bag, but it's twice toiletry bag, yes. as big though innit? With, for men. Are they for men? Yeah. Oh! Cos Steve got one and I got one. I got a blue one and he got a black one. Yeah, I got a black one. And mine keeps disappearing though. I lent it Steven and that were it! Off it went. And mine's black. You know, it sounds I spent . D'ya know, he stuck in all day Wednesday. Well it past half past ten, you think he'd be up and getting ready for work. He might be up. He don't know his dad's in this morning. He's hiding. He's always hiding. Er, what time is it? Quarter past nine? Yeah. He'll go out and get that five to ten bus or five past ten bus. Stops upstairs all the time. Cos I've upset his girlfriend! Is that Amanda? Which one? I don't know. I told him he'd better tell his friends, or his girlfriends, that when they call at our house if they don't give names, they're not talking to him! I says, cos I haven't the faintest idea who they are. I've says your Mark, I says, he always says, is that Mrs ? It's Mark. Will you ask Steven if I can talk to him please? And, there's one called Gavin, he rings up, and the girlfriend, he did have, whether it's still same one, I don't know called Sarah. Well, I says to him, I'm getting sick of these calls cos you don't know if it's for him or him. We have the same name. And er I picked it up other night, says, can I ta speak to Steven? I said, no! So she di still didn't say her name! So, she says, will you give Steven a message? I says, no! Talk to him when you see him. Well will you ask Steven to call me back? I says, no! She give me no telephone number, no name nothing! So, she said, oh! Alright, and put phone down. And I still didn't know who it were. I thought, if I keep saying no she'll say, well it's Sarah or whoever but, no chance! No name! No phone number! No nothing! Ee! It's bloody cold out there! I know. And it's foggy. Oh, it weren't bad. Just washed my eyes, I can see now. We had a struggle this morning coming out, my windows were all mucky outsi go it got, a car, van had passed me. I put my window washers on and my windows froze up! They will do. Yeah, see me come up Yeah but it didn't seem as though it were freezing though did it? coming home last night, I stopped half way home bloody needed checking the lights! Oh! Don't mention lights. Keep flashing me to say that I've got my headlights on so I, when I, I give them flash back to say no I haven't. Oh. They do that with me. When I've been taking Paul to work in the morning they've been giving me flashes and then if I, you know, flashed them back they haven't put their headlights on so I thought oh bugger yous! So I put mine on. They don't like mine. Don't like mine. Mine, my beams shines So into the cars. Mine does. He's got six lights up front. Paul, I says, your lights aren't set properly! I says, yeah but it's passed its M O T for lights. Exactly! It did! Cos mine had. He's just had to alter them hisen! Somebody, if they were wrong you'd think they'd tell you wouldn't you? They're supposed to. But there's no mention of lights! I sent mine, I took that it was out. I said give us screwdriver, I'll do it here and now. He says, why? I says, well it seems daft taking it back, to fetch it back. He said, I'm not failing you on it. I said no, but yo you've got your marks on your wall I said I can cha do it now. But this one I can do mesen. But Yeah. I mean Yeah. Dipped lights though, it's just like a guess. Not if I've got it set. We know they're wrong. Yeah. Yeah I know. Yeah, they're just like headlights mine is. I've got the same, but usually I have eight on front of car. So I says, Paul, I says, get me some spotlights. That's what's missing ont front of ours. When he crashed we've not had anything replaced. Cos, before you crash we had six lights on t' back and we had eight on t' front. Cos he's got them four headlights with Mm. the either side, then below the bumper thing, we had the fog lights and above the bumper we had two spotlights. Now, on the back I bought him some extra fog lights for back and I bought him them fog lights that goes int window. D'ya know? So if Yeah the light int window, and on bumper and fog light. He come back, we've got headlights on t' front two fog lights and we got brake lights on t' back. No fog lights, no nothing. That's all we've got! I says, to him, there's six lights missing off here. I says, they cost me over two hundred quid, I says, for the six lights! But, them at Car Care turned round and says, it's not on t' invoice. All we keep getting off them is I says, you mean to say, we're paying two and half thousand pounds worth of repairs, I says, and they're not done? And then when we went for wheel balancing told us to take it back for balancing and tracking, they turned round and says we're not doing it. Take it to another garage. We told Maggie that. So I says to Maggie, we'll phone insurance, I put her on t' phone, and she said he were, he were right clever with her! And er that's why they haven't got in contact and that. So he, took it back before and put brand new bonnet that they've put on. Didn't fit! And he says, when he gets it up to sixty mile an hour on t' motorway it's still vibrating. Yeah. So, he's gonna go int insurance this morning, tell them that er bonnet's still vibrating and they've supposed to have done it twice and that, because of er ask them where he can take to have all these repair jobs done. You know, checked over. Cos, he went in there summat to do wi headlights or summat, one were like up and down or summat. And he went in and he said they haven't even bloody welded this! They've done a tack. I says, you're alright, I said, front radiator's gonna bleeding drop off! So he's gonna see about that this morning. I says to him, take a day off work for, I says, for God's sake! So he took today off. So you were saying, he's only upstairs just now. Grandma. Steve. You got that that bag. Could you fetch my keys from upstairs please? Grandma. You've got Ta. that. Yeah. Grandma. Grandma's got that bag. Has she? Yeah. Kath's got a lot of bags hasn't she? I've got another one upstairs. Do you know, fellas, who'd have them? Oh! That's One minute, she starts collecting one thing then you start collecting another thing Christmas, he come home with one of them. That lad at work, that John what they call him? And that, and that's He give him one. And er he's got hundreds of them apparently. So he's decided he wants to collect them now. Wow! I've got Tetleys tea. Is that the I've got so then? I've got Kelloggs. Is it Kelloggs? Don't know that No don't touch them. No I won't. That was the er, last one that she'd seen they said that . Them Kelloggs. Yeah. Got a lot of them. That's like granddad. They're Walkers crisps. They're Walker crisps. Kelloggs. I don't know what that They're like grandma. one upstairs is. And er Like grandma's. I said to Maggie I says, Steve's collecting cars I says, it don't matter if it's int box or not, I says, if they're int box they're staying in a box. I says, and I'm buying him a rack for the ones not in a box. With Tetleys tea now you send away and get a like a little minibus thing. Oh. We don't get Tetleys teas though. We don't get that at all. I always used to I've just got enough for one, er one car. One car . He couldn't stop buying . He says, there's not much point in getting P G or Tetleys from one tea bag and making four Look! cups. Cos what he does, he puts a tea bag in a cup pours about that much water on takes the tea bag out and tops it right up with water so he can see bottom of cup. And then he uses same tea bag again. That's why Well that Tetley tea bags taste strong though. Hot. Hot. One tea bag does me and Paul. That's all we put int teapot, one tea bag. That's just not strong. Well that's good that Tetleys tea stuff. I'm sure you do get a a I doubt it like. Cos you never do do you? Well, no! So got wo . Get four cups. Yeah. Can I have it? What? It's been there a fortnight and I keep asking everybody if they want to try it. And I told Steve to drink it, and he says no, and wi you mentioning Tetleys and I don't Oh, he'll not drink Tetleys. You have been in my bag again! I haven't been in your bag! I can tell you haven't! I have not been in your bag! So, in that case, you've dropped it. I picked it up and it were th the er strap got the wrong way round. Tt! So it all went out? So I had to pick it all up. And how come he's good enough to go the Sea Cadets but he's not good enough to go college? Because he don't go till half past ten this morning. Oh! Changed my mind. But I know Tetleys tea bags er one tea bag does me and Paul. And I have it stronger than what this coffee is. You'll have to save it till Paul comes back for the car . I've got enough for one car for mesen. Ah! Will you save some more and then you can send for Okay. a gonna save me some Tetley tea tokens for a car. Oh thank you. Cos she has Tetleys, and we don't. Oh Right. Don't like it. Just give her that tea, it's Tetley tea. Save . D'ya know And if you don't like it you can keep the jar. Can actually, yes. Yes! That's what it says on't telly. Mm. I'm gonna buy Well what's that? I don't know whether you do with like It's not . Cos Jack does and all cos he's got one. In fact, I'm gonna get his present. Well it's not even a proper bloody jar is it? It's a plastic thing. That's what it says, if you don't like the tea, you get a free jar ! What the bloody hell can you do with that? Did I give you a diary? I can't remember if I did cos I've been picking them up. Every time I go int bank they, just leave them on t' counter, they've been there weeks and weeks. And normally, they're all gone so, and I thought, oh! I got one though. I give Maggie one for, today. Say, you ought to say oh . Where did you put your bag? It's there. Oh!. Put it back in there. Oh! Under there look. Oh! Get my key ring? Under there. Your key ring, I've just Ah! Like that. What's that say? Risking. Is that off Come off a panel. We got about twenty panels at work and on the panel there's a little plastic thing stuck on and it needs four keys and one. Wow! So now it hasn't got nowt with it? There's no keys, there's no key rings? There's no key rings. I got the last of them. Er, that were before they come in to our place. Oh yeah. D'ya know, I ke I've had them in my bag I keep forgetting to give them to anyone. Well I will. I'm never there. Got your ? Yeah. Which one? Eh? Aye, give me this . See if we can use that? No, it's that one, big'un's in my drawer. Ooh! It might be in there. Oh! If I did that with my rings, just threw them like that, he'd go absolutely apeshit! Wouldn't you? I go to work in them, and I'm pulling cables. Well you're not working for three days, you've got three days off! No I haven't. No. You've got a day off of work, a day, and a day off. Yeah. You said, you wanted some money. Wow! Yeah. I do. Are they ? Yeah. I shouldn't be taking Do you know, that's cost me for thirty nine quid! Oh! Well that makes your total to four bags of coal. Well we'll do twenty quid with that thing. Down there. Oh aye. But I, but I didn't get a meter on. I It is a meter. It's a meter. It's a . Token meter. Token meter. No. Our, our Carole's got a fifty pence meter. An old one. it can't be done. A quarter meter for the . Yeah, well as soon as they get Don't go saying this a right good crack. No alright then. And it smells. As usual. I might have to go for a recall. D'ya know you get worse you do! Would you like a cig? Hello. Go on then! Yeah. Aren't I kind to you? No. I spend all your money on you and you say no! I think he's got a cheek! Coal? That's not for me! That's to keep you warm. No it int, because I never ever light it in the morning do I? I light Sometimes it later on so it's ready for you coming in. Aargh! We ne'er sit in kitchen with Calor gas on. Well why not? I would if my kitchen . Thou would. Got the fridge in kitchen. Our fridge is in there. If I run fridge from there back into conservatory, I could put this there and sit in kitchen and shut the door. I thought the fridge were going in cubbyhole? It was. But somebody put shelves in and everything else and what have you, so it don't fit. It's all full. Ah! Ah! And then, they've just had the gas tank down the full'un. Has he got another one in as well, in there? I know. Yeah. I want another one. What? I've got three gas tanks and they were all empty over Christmas so last time he got paid, I filled two up. Where d'ya get them from? You know er Opposite Tescos. Oh yeah! , nineteen pound. Last time we got them filled we got them from down here, thirty odd quid. Yeah! Mine's twelve ninety five. Yeah. . I gi him a twenty pound note and he give me some change. For two. This is Calor gas? Yeah. Yeah. You know, Tescos? Yeah. Garage opposite. Straight across road there's a garage there. They sell them. And it's nine pound, did I say nine pound fifty a tank? That's Either nine or nine pound fifty a tank. That's where I get it from. And down here it's thirteen quid. About thirty nine quid they charged me for three. Yeah well I get so it's a pound cheaper than I, you know, others I've been going to. You wanna go here. So mine's twelve ninety five. Bloody hell! That's three quid cheaper. I'd go there if I were you. I'll take one wi you on Saturday. Yeah. Get it filled. I got twenty in my bag cos I haven't got one on other room. So this has been running a month hasn't it? I don't know. I don't know how you You got paid a month ago. I don't know how you work it. We only have it on one bar, two bar Every three bar, four. I start off with three. I sometimes have one on, then I put two on. Wait till I'm a bit cold. Oh I reverse. I start with three and then, I think, phworgh! It's getting hot in here. And turn it down to two. And then, I either leave it like that or turn it to one. See we I were, I did this morning, I put two on kept door shut. Had my breakfast int kitchen. I thought, it's warm in here. Don't spill it. What if she comes in. . Yeah. On a dinner time when I go out on a dinner time I leave it on. And I don't know why. I just leave the one bar on Mm. and then it's right warm when I come in. It's bound to be. I use it all morning. I've usually got it on when you're here all morning haven't I? Mm. Sa it saves coal. But so far, that's why I chitted at him this morning about that coal because I've been using this all morning, I've not been lighting fire till between one and three o'clock. And I have four so far it's four weeks, haven't I? That's a four, a four, a three, and a three. I need to go back. Yes. What like me? And I use the fire too. Who still haven't got that aspirin have we? No. That what? That's . It's been blowing water out. Somebody's nicking them! I want to help Like the chuffing ! So But we'll catch them. She she says,. I says, he won't cos they've been feeding him. Well th You see, they know him don't they? You see, if Bill comes over he has a go at Bill, even though he knows Bill, but because he don't see him that much he has a go at him. But at least they're , and they're not. Oh I see. Well And what we noticed, is, we've got a spring there but what and there's been a trail of coal right up our Ah ah! Oh! Oh! He's lost as much Ah! Ah! Ah! Ah, ah ah ah! Ah ah! I bought Ah ah ah! I had the two of them for Christmas and it didn't Ah! didn't even last us into New Ah! Year. Urgh! Urgh! And I says, I'm not having this! Oh! Oh! Oh! Oh! So I thought, well he knows I know. Because I let them know that I know. Oh they do! You just tell Maggie. Cos I heard Maggie so someone the someone's thieving Kath's coal. And she's going mad about it! Well we've locked the bottom half, cos Steve got a lock and we locked the bottom half. And, but the it broke. So, gonna have to buy one. Well Johnny's supposed to have had one that were a fortnight ago. And I says to Steve, I says, I can't keep affording this! I says, between the electric and that, I says, thirty nine pound a week, I says, every week, I says, is getting a bit ridiculous! Cos in that electric meter, I don't know what they've done to it! I phoned it up and says the fella had been out, you know, they change, update it Yeah. every so often, they've got these little card things well they shove them in and it clicks all these numbers up so I used to buy one token Yeah. so every fortnight I bought twenty pounds worth. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah yes ! Well, I've got to buy twenty pounds worth one week Yeah. Yeah. and ten pound week after, and ten pound week after Who is that granddad? to last me for one month, because we've got to put it on. Where is that ? I keep . Wah! And my bill, like, come in and seventy odd! Who's that granddad? I paid hundred and twenty quid on top of this for electric, and they billed me seventy odd! And er They says, that fella's coming to me, he's supposed to be coming out. And reset it to . And I says, I'll tell you what, I said, wait till this quarter's over I says, you make the bill up. Don't you ! I says, if there's owt owing to you Oh! Oh! Oh! or owt owing to me, I says, we'll do it that way and then you come ! Well I'd thought you'd winter? That's what she wanted. Look at me! What's that, after six o'clock? After seven? Yeah. It's just Half past seven? I usually only put it, put it on a bit before . After I heard that, I said It's not! I've normally got telly on in the evenings. Yeah. Things, still ! got your fridge int you? Your freezer. Yeah. . There's your lights. True. I mean, ours is, ours, ours is terrible, ours is a hundred and what? Hundred and It were hundred and ten pound seven pence. Happy birthday to you Once we got to sorted, I'm gonna take her. . And ye we've got all things outside. We've got a great big bloody spotlight outside! That lights all yard up. Well, before they put that token in it, then my bills used to come in about fifty, sixty pound. But since they put the token meter in, I've just found they're charging me nine pound for token meter as well as the meter! You know, you get charged for your meter? Cos I ca I were querying on t' bill, I says, why is it two meters? Er, because he's got to come out and read it. I says, he don't have to come out and read that at all! I says, there's nowt on it! I says, I shove cards in, I says, apart from it telling how much you've put in, I says, there's nowt to read on it! They swear black and blue, they charge you for that meter as well! I'm being charged for two meters. So it pushed bill up. Oh! I'm whacked! Ah, ha ha! As soon as, if you're gonna go gas for this when smokeless comes in At the price the coal is, I am, because if I'm buying four bags at nineteen pound for four bags . Yeah. and it's eight pound fifty a bag for smokeless, I can't afford Oh! Oh! four of them. I says to Steve, I may as well buy a ten pounds worth of anything else Ain't got radiators have you? Eh? Ain't got radiators are you? No, I'd have to have a radiator fitted and da you have to have that pump on, so I mean pump'd gone all out of Yeah. True. Clip clop! But he says we're moving. Oh you can't! He's been saying that over a year. And he's still insisting that he wants to move. He don't like it Yeah. down this area. Well don't bust it! Have you noticed Nope! I ain't put in token. That's to make me a cup of tea. Well don't what about me? Well, take back that twenty pence token. It's like my . Yeah. I were gonna say I thought it had. I weren't sure. That's to make me a cup of tea when I get home and can try it. And I can try it. Yes. Well, give me it back and you can try it then. Yeah. You can have two cups can't you? That's two cups for you and two cups for me. Right? Right? Right. Right. Have to tell Maggie that she can't do the lollipop. That's yours. I had a phone call, and you know that place I were going this afternoon? . Midi hi-fi and all that. . No. I told you I'd won one didn't I? Er Hey! I've won a midi hi-fi system and a thousand pounds worth of holiday accommodation. Oh! Well how? Well what I did, there were a competition, win a thousand pounds worth of Air Miles and I, I entered every single one of them because of Irene. You know, she's been invited to that wedding in Africa? And I thought well she's got two chances that way, either I could win, or she could win, or neither of us'll win. And I thought, if I got that I could give it to Irene and could go wedding. And er I forgot all about it, entered it last year. And I got it, of course, that says you've won second prize! Now, I've won a thousand pounds in the United Kingdom. Not abroad. And we can't go. I keep thinking it's Friday. It is Friday. Yeah. Exactly! And I'd won That's why I asked if you were babysitting last night. Anyway Ah! I'm going. Okay. Bye! Bye. He's not with it! Bye! I know. Er, bye! He's not used to having Friday off. No. Bye bye. Say tutty-bye! Tutty-bye! Bye! She always says that to her gramps in the morning. Does she? Yes. I say eh , I want a kiss! So if you kiss her on t' cheek,she's on t' lips! Is she? Has he gone? Then she'll Yeah. say, take care granddad. Watch what you're doing. Be careful. Yeah. He's supposed to have been there at half past nine! I told him that he's Ooh! Ooh! Ya! You watch, he'll get there and say I can't find it! He's never been to National Tyres. Ee! Ee! Ya! He'll come back and say it cost more than that, give me some money. It costs Ooh! Ooh! Ya! Ah ah! That's for all wheel balancing. Ee! Ee! Ya! Aargh! But, when you have it Ah! Eh, come out! You don't do that! What did she do? Pulling the curtains down ! Come on! Where's the Come on! ? Come on then. Good girl. Please! She's alright on t' chair. Please. No, but he said four pound odd's dear innit? Well it's only front that's got to be tracked. And balanced, innit? That's not bad. Well, I'm assuming it's not bad. They can balance your back wheels though don't they? I don't know. Cos I've got summat pu they used to have anyway, summat with a piece of metal on. Yeah, he has. Erm, Charlie puts them on, they took his others out and put these on to balance it. That's Oh! Cos he said, look at these out the thing! Cos he give him them to fetch a a thing or summat and she went . Whatever. Int it quiet after ? All that traffic on, right early, and then it just disappeared! Watch you don't burn yourself on that lady! Cos it's hot. Erm she I'm not a lady! What are you then? Krista. You're Krista? Oh! I thought you was a lady? I thought you was a little lady? Aren't you a little lady? Are you a little boy then? You must be a little lady! No. Daddy's a little lady. Daddy's a little boy. Daddy's a little boy. Mammy's a little lady. That mister at hospital calls you a little lady. Well he did. I'm not a lady! Oh! Ah well! A little monkey then? She's a bloody maggot! She's a maggot! Is that what you are? What are you then? Are you a little girl? No, she's not telling us. And you said that Mm. You! Can you hear him creeping now? Can't you hear him? Just heard go cos the seat's dead quiet. He's avoiding his dad like the plague! Daddy's a good boy. Yes! And why he's doing that, we don't know. Cos he says, Steve says to me, is he in? I says, no. He says, he's not in? I says, no. And a bit later on I says to him I think he's at Cadets. He says, he's not, he's in. I says, eh? He says, he's in. And he's just walked past me. I says, well you could of told me he were in. He says, he's gone and done summat. I'll tell you, he's gone and done summat. He says, he never said hello, tarrah, nothing! He says, just walked by and ran up the stairs ! I says, he's either hiding summat or he's done summat. But, he won't say nowt. Not a word. I've never even heard of it Towards Beverley, you go towards Beverley. Oh I've heard of it when er Alice has mentioned it. Mm. Er I don't think I've ever been. As I said I'm, I'm, I got them out at I think it were twenty one ninety nine or were it twenty five ninety nine?they were twenty one ninety nine or twenty five ninety now, I can't remember off the cuff. Me thing to have at the bed end you know Mm. drape Aye. And these I got our Carole for twelve ninety nine. Bloody big difference innit? He says slight seconds, well I looked at them last night and there's, I can't see nowt wrong with them. Well I, other week I got this beds er not bedspread duvet cover and he's supposed to be slight second and I can's see nowt wrong with that. Can't see nowt wrong with it. And it were nine ninety nine. and that was pillow covers, well shams Mm. well we've yeah. so yesterday when I went I got myself another drape Yes. and I got an Mm. Our 's having coffee. I, I put water in it didn't I? I put a cup in. Oh I thought that were light when I picked it up then that was quick. Well I've got a crafty Roger because he's took the cheese three times. Yes, I've got one of them. Eh now then listen to this, yesterday I'd er some beefburgers had er must've dropped out me box when I were getting me things out of the c freezer and there were this er six beefburgers and two ch chicken breasts Mm. and I thought well I'm not gonna eat them now they've been out of bag, so I thought oh I'll boil them up for dog Mm. So I boiled them in pan for the dog and I put some taters in and a few peas and carrots sort of thing and some Oxos and made him a r a right good dinner. Mm. So I took it over to Paul I said I brought this for Blackie I said, I just cooked it,it smells nice. So I told him what were in it Mm? so he says I'll give him it after. Well I said I'm not leaving me bloody pan outside Mm. so I, I went back in house and fetched him a little bowl back with me taters in, peeling taters, scraped it all in and I said I'll leave it in dish cos it's a dog doggy dish went back in house and, oh what did I come back for? Oh it were to tell him that dinner were ready and there's this cheeky little mouse sat on top dinner, and he ain't half eaten it And he, he sat there for ages off it. Er and it, it kept looking at me and I thought cheeky little bugger. Seems like every bugger's got them though. Yeah. Well it jumped up there and run down building brick on to floor and it runs, it just, it ran down into corner, there's a a wheel,thing, and the cheek well it's a a pulley wheel, and it, it were looking round the big handle at pulley wheel at me. And then it run back out, up brick and back in chicken. So I shouted to Paul to come and have a look at it and he says well the cheeky bugger. He said I bet it's that that's been, oh and then it jumped down and ran corner at g where ch caravan is, he said I bet that's what's been eating your bloody daffodil bulbs and that. Mm. So I goes in the house and fetches this trap didn't I? Put some cheese on and we set it I said to Paul I said anyway your dinner's ready when you are. So he said alright so he come in and had his dinner so he said I said we ought to be going this week for a ride out instead of last week. So he says oh I said I weren't taking you this week. I tell you what, if you're not taking me I'll take me bloody self, I said, but I'm taking your car. I thought I'm not using my diesel . So I says I tell you what I'll do, I'll take you only he can drive it. Mm. So anyway we had us dinner so he says he said it'll take thee half an hour to get ready won't it? You must be bloody joking. I said you must be bloody joking. I said you watch me, how quick I can be ready. So I run into bathroom picking me sweatshirt up as I'm running in got, had me hands and face washed out again into bedroom, got me trousers and me other jumper on and me pan knickers, I said I'm ready. He said what's your chuffing rush? Are you coughing? Yeah. I've been coughing on and off. I've put the kettle on. Is it for is for here? Yeah. Oh. Yeah. Look. Look. Look at her. Look at who? A fairy. Let's have a look. Oh int she pretty? What's her name? I bet she's no knickers on. Pretty. She, she hasn't got no knickers on now. Look you've pulled all this thing out again look. It's my book. It's my book on there. I finished them books Yeah And you told Kath that we wouldn't have to go this weekend. Don't take your coat off cos we're not stopping. No we're not stopping, are we Kath? No, gonna get some shopping. Have you told Kath that you've been a naughty girl? I'm not very naughty. She's been swearing. Have you been swearing! Oh dear me! That's naughty. Haven't you posted that bloody thing yet? You could get your Yeah I went and got it yesterday but they'd had a break in and you should've seen it they'd smashed the front door, it were all smashed in. So did you get it then or what? Well what they had to do, they give us a receipt and they're gonna send it through parcel post. That's the only thing they can do. So they had all these letters printed up, that they owe us one Aye and they're gonna send it through like that. I'll get it, I'll read it to you. And they give us a, like a cheque type thing what you've got to fill your name and address in back Yeah. and you send it off and they send you a booklet where you pick a holiday and this go-kart worth a thousand pound on the so they're having to do that you see. I meant to ask if they'd had the go-karts nicked and I forgot. So can you just use that, is it in England or abroad? Ooh I don't know yet. It said U K on mine. That's England int it? Mm yeah. They don't tell Don't U K come under England, Ireland, Scotland or Wales an'all? No? It says dear Mr and Mrs due to turnover of stocks we regret that we are that there are no mini hi-fis. We're waiting for new stocks to arrive and will forward the mini hi-fi to you as soon as stocks are delivered. Yours sincerely and they've signed it. They've had to give us one of them. And if it hasn't arrived within week, telephone number's on bottom and we've got to ring to say we haven't got it yet. Were it like a timeshare ? God you'd've laughed they were on about that as well at same time and he says to Steve what do you reckon to idea, he says it doesn't sound bad, he says what do you reckon to idea as I says no. He says oh well you're honest I says well you've got it straight away No. Look on here. left it at that. Look on here. Yeah. Int it ? I don't know . I bet my Bill somebody at work today. Yeah, cos cough can't sleep. I've been, I've been like this for three nights. I think so, upstairs and warm the bloody brandy we just, you know that brandy gives off fumes when it's been heated up? Got it at work the other night didn't it? Yeah? And he come down about three o'clock in the morning some mentholyptus and I've had it. She's had it all. I've had it all been to doctors and all sorts. I've been to the doctors, I've had that erm what do you call the bloody stuff in that purple bottle? Actifed and all sorts. Actifed I've had everything. And what's doctor give you then? Actifed You see what it is, it's stuck here. If she can get that out of here they could find out what's wrong with her, but it won't come. It's been there five, six days now. Mm. Five or six days. And in instead of it coming off it's adding on and adding on and by night time she can hardly breathe so she's cough cough cough cough cough cough cough all night. And on My Peter and they've got rotten coughs. on Friday night she were pathetic. O only word for it weren't it? Bill thought I'd died on him the other night cos I was, you know, me breathing and everything, and then all of a sudden I must've relaxed for a bit and not needed to breathe and he give me a shock he says God I thought you were dead. She frightened him half to death. I I say and we cleaned all fire and everything out this morning didn't we do well? Fire. I mean I've cleaned my fire out. I have peeled the potatoes, they're in the stew pan, and the onions and the carrots and the beef's all in the stew pan and it's had about quarter of an hour. How long's that take, about an hour? Yeah that's having dumplings in it. Ah. But the taters'll go to nowt. Yeah they go to mush and then I put more taters into it later on, about twenty minutes before I need it, but it thickens it so they'll eat it. It's the beef what were left from yesterday. Well you said you were gonna use it up didn't you? I'm not wasting it. bit of beef so We called in Little Chef and we had a meal in there, urgh yuk It were, tasted like shit. She fetched it and Rubber eggs, mm. she fetched it and put it on table Eh blooming them places are, fifty pence apiece for one flipping egg. Yeah, yeah. Two pound eighty five, it says, for bacon, sausage, egg, fried bread and tomatoes which, anywhere, that's reasonable, right? You get half a slice. So no you got a full slice she fetched it, put it on table and I looked at it and I says she says what's the matter, int everything alright? I says what's that? She says pardon? I says what's that? I says if I'd've wanted a slice of fat and I'd've want burnt tomatoes I says I would've ordered them. The tomatoes were black as though they'd forgot they were frying them, they looked like they'd stuck them on a grill and just left them there and there was about that much bacon on the bacon slice, the rest were fat, I says I'm not paying for that. Did she take it back then Oh yeah. And she fetched tomatoes back and I says here Steve you can have these tomatoes, I says they're bloody disgusting. And every so often they kept coming up, everything alright? I says it is now. Ooh you've never seen nowt like it, you know when your tomatoes are stuck on and then you shovel them off and I thought they were like that! I says even I don't cook tomatoes like that, they were disgusting. I've already done my, got all my shopping in. Yeah once you find this Nettos you wanna go because it is cheap. You, you wanna go all the time cos it's dirt cheap. Well on Sat Sunday we went ou out I spent all most of me money on bloody stuff for our Carole's and that. got a Pillows. Eh smashing pillows a pound each! Where from? From that Cabin Market. Ah we don't know where it is. Well it's up Beverley Road Going towards the bridge? We get on motorway, no it's not bridge you get on motorway and we go, go up to Beverley I'll ask Paul Thank you. Thank you. to write down directions. Yeah. But I know you go on erm m on motorway and go towards Beverley. that no bloody good is it? I borrowed it off Maggie this morning cos she said you were coming up. What's that? Coffee Kath ? Yes please. Oh Jake sod off. Yeah, chocolate. Who fetched your money? Came through post. Oh he posted it? Sweets. And you get another one on Wednesday? What do you mean, sweets? I've just give you bar of chocolate. int he? Get another one on Wednesday. Thank you very much. That was just done, I put the kettle on and just I see you coming up the road. I know I were showing her alarms and that she wanted to see how they work. Ah. Come on sunshine. Do that fire in a minute. Come on babe,. Oh is that Matthew's? What? You eating Matthew's chocolate? Just been to stupid Nettos, do you know you can't cash a cheque? Ah? Just got to counter, she started putting it through and I looked up and there were these signposts, and it says cash only. So I asked her and she'd already started ringing it through hadn't she? Yeah. Cash only. So I had to borrow it off Maggie. I says oh you're alright, Jacqueline's coming up, I'll give it back after that didn't I? Yeah. I've never heard of it. All shops normally have one of them Well I've got a Switch which, I've got a Switch card. doopher things now. She could've used Switch card but they hadn't got one of them neither. Stupid. I like the way you invited me as well. You says eh shall we go then? Still too hot. It's not too hot, it's just right. Well fair's fair I were having a coffee with you, I'm not just gonna walk out. Bugger that. Hello fat-a-lump! She's been up to his shop and John says,sh she's come up early Yeah. Mm. Well you were you saying you weren't coming till half past ten, well we'd've gone, come back and been in by then. That's what I just said, weren't it? Cos straight away we says what time, it were ten o'clock weren't it when What's his name's lending her the washing Mum Who? Right. Right. Mum. Then get your washing done. Good. Put it in the bin. And when you've finished I hope you know that that was Matthew's bar of chocolate you've just ate. Oh he halfed it. Oh did he? Yeah he give him half. Yeah but he's had one and a half then. Haven't you? What? Oh the Kit-Kats. What? Yeah What? I get them for Bill for snap. She were trying to attract your attention I'm coming. Is Jacqueline and I'm saying you're alright, she'd have left buggy at your house anyway cos you were walking, you wouldn't have had buggy with you then so you'd gotta come back this way hadn't you? What ? What is it? So you got your coal and your tokens and everything? Yeah. Are you back to normal now? Good I get the giro Wednesday Yeah. and I get my book the following Monday. Oh that's alright then innit? They should have it for cash for Monday shouldn't they? Yeah. Yeah. Pass me cup And I might go and Yes she were having a look at a lamb, seeing if it were alright for the thing and er we decided that they wouldn't be alright because where her shed thing is, it's too far away from house. I'm not getting toys. Not yet. There. Have you been a good boy for your mum? Yeah. Yeah? Mum. What? Has he been good? What about that one? Yeah. Sweets. You've had sweets! Your mum just bought you a packet of Smarties at shop each. Mm? Yeah you've had sweets. bye. Bye if you're going home. He said I've had me sweets, I'm off. Mm home. So what you been doing with yourself, owt or nowt? Washing I should imagine . Yeah washing. Is that all you've been doing ? Catching up. Oh God. Is he fetching it round to your house or I've got it, I can keep it for two week. For two week? So do everything what you've got I can, you, I can keep it for two week till Johnny wants it again, not this Wedn not this Wednesday, the following Wednesday. Does he only wash once a fortnight? Oh Right. not really wash is it,? Oh well that's once a month. Is that the dirty one? Yes, the one they call smelly. Even give me a box of soap powder. Did he? Bloody hell. Oh. Mm I, I goes to Ry I goes can I have washer so I gave him a couple of quid, three quid, for lending me it plus the spinner cos spinner don't work on washer Yeah? and he goes oh I'll give you a box of soap powder as well. Oh well that's not bad then. That were alright then wasn't it? Jolly good. He goes you can keep it till I need it again. You would Poo! Get out. Straight on tissue. Oh dear. So I did all their clothes last night and got them all dried Yeah. and I'm doing all me today. Ah well. Yeah but every time you go to the shop you wanna just keep buying an extra little bag of coal so you can stack up under your back bit, you know, so you can get them all dried. tired Joe. He slept with me last night cos of that wind. Yeah. Oh yeah weren't it windy? Yeah. Oh God. And he slept with me, he wouldn't go to sleep so I took them both downstairs, made them a drink, made them something to eat, come back to bed . That's one way to do it. Mind you that wind keeps you awake though doesn't it? It does, yeah. What you want then? I'm not gonna rock. Take their coats off Jackie then they'll feel warmer when they leave. Stewart take your coat off. What's he eating, still eating Smarties? Yes, Smarties and he's got a piece of chocolate in his hand. Come here. finished all his. Oh. Well it don't take him long does it? You can have it in a minute. Sit down. Have you seen your mum then? No. Oh. I thought all your neighbours would have phoned her up and told her. Well it shouldn't be much longer. I found out who grassed on me. Ooh er. Ray. You said it were him. He told me, he told me the other night. Of course we all tol all rang me mum and told me mum said I did it. If he hadn't a done that you'd have had your washer and everything still. Yeah. What'd he do that for? I'll be moving to Apton Road. Where's that? You are? Oh y it's nearer up here. It's erm, erm is it five streets up this way? What's it near? Er Oh it's the second street down no No it's not second, it's erm er Norwood Road it's summat beginning with a C, is Apton following that or the one after? Third or fourth one in. I don't know. Third or fourth one i you know from this end, top? Yeah. It's third or fourth one coming this way right from top. It's in between top and Regal. Oh that's not bad then is it? Two rooms aren't there? Three. No, downstairs. Oh I dunno Kath. Two rooms. I haven't had a look yet. I think it's two rooms. If it's like the one we lived in, cos when I, I lived at home with mum and dad we lived in Craigan Road and they're two rooms. But then again in Poplar Road, they're one room. Big kitchen. I'm moving to Apton Road. You're definitely swapping with that girl? Her that come round to see you and Steve? Yeah. I don't know her name but I can remember him saying it. Don't spill it. Do you know, it's a wonder he ain't fat as a pig, him. He never stops Oh I wanna play mum. What? Look. Nice. Mum bad. Yes nice. Mum mad. One way to do it. Don't you spill it kid. No. Hey look at this. I always took that off. He's made one, he's got, nearly making the other one for it. Has he got ? Hey that's not bad. She was making them for him, then he's making him some an'all. Smashing. Cos he's fed up of seeing Getting clever him int he? You chuck it at me and I'll do you over! Yeah. You can Craig, you're not getting nothing else. You've had chocolate, you've had more chocolate and you've got your pop. Hey! Hey. Stop it. You've got your pop here. Drink that pop. No Matthew'll have it. Mm. What? What pop? Yeah y well you have the bottle first. What? You don't have fizzy pop you don't, orange. When did you get Smarties? Went up to shop. We went up to the shop. Oh you got them? Yeah I were gonna say I seen you get chocolate but I didn't see you get Smarties. No I bought Smarties this morning at top shop for them Oh. cos I knew they were coming. And they went and bought some more. I went in John's shop and I goes to John have you seen Maggie? He goes oh she were in earlier on but she weren't feeling very well. Mm. probably in bed. No she says that she wanted to go to Nettos this morning so I says are you coming? Mm. I didn't ask her if she could, I just says are you coming . So he picked the Smarties up and walked out. So you had to pay. So I goes come here, and I give them to John I goes I'll take them John and I paid. Kids are like that though aren't they? Then he football Mm yeah but I'm surprised It's o that's the only trouble with shops, all sweets are always low so kids can get them. Yeah. And they know for a fact the minute your kids grab them that you've got to pay. In the bin. In the bin. In the bin. Sweets. Sweets. Oh when are you going to Nettos again Kath? Well I didn't know we were going today. It's only cos she mentioned she wanted some bread. I'd give her directions and everything. She says it's for ducks. mum! Well that's Cos she says is it soft and fresh? And I says soft and fresh, for ducks? I said it's soft and I'll do it. soft and fresh for you not for ducks. Yeah. Drink that and you can have some more. You give ducks hard bread don't you? Yeah, for the ducks! That's one way to do it say it's for ducks. He's a good boy. Ah! He's lost them under his leg. Ooh! You what? You drink that and you can have some more in a minute. Oh cough it up. Our Suzanne's having a sort out by the way maybe next week or the week after but I'm getting I'm getting, I'm getting for dog. Are you? Yeah. Is he still at coal hou No . she threw the thing in coal house, her . she said she was gonna put it in coal house. When we went to Donny on Thursday I met her and er I says how's Craig! I says how's things? Craig . She says I put dog in coal house, I couldn't believe it could I? That's it. Right you can have some in a minute when it goes flatter. Drink that. Well You don't want that babe, you drink your bottle first and then you can have some orange. You're not having fizzy pop, hurt your belly. So when you thinking of moving then? They're going in for papers Wednesday. Are you going with her? Very good. Yeah. And her husband's having these two for me with his kids. Very good. Smashing. That's what I like to hear. Pick that up for us Cos I was to ha because I had nobody to have kids, she goes, she goes fetch them down, husband'll have them. Watch Jake. I know where it is. What number? Fifteen. Fifteen, that's left hand side half way down. Oh that's not too bad then. The toilet's upstairs and bathroom. Good. You dirty chuff-bag . Bloody coffee and pop, get your hands out! There. No thank you. There. There, yes. Do you want some spaghetti in a bit? Your face is coming out in them blotches again innit? Look at his face. She's going to Nettos on Friday, Al is. Is she? Yeah. Bill prefers Nettos. Oh . But I wanna go, I've gotta get something for me freezer, me freezer's empty. Oh I went down there other day, I paid twenty quid. I've got a bloody crave for that broccoli. Urgh! No darling that's right. What do you want now? Oh I love them. On. On what? What do you want? Have they had breakfast Gill? Yeah. Well you've been fed. Now what do you want! He's had two chocolates Packet of Smarties. Packet of Smarties. Biscuits. Pop. I'll make you some dinner in a bit. It's not dinnertime. Make him wait till dinnertime else you'll cock her system up. It's alright him having breakfast and an hour later saying mum I want me dinner. Do you want this? He hasn't has he? Oh God. Oh my little dumpling's gonna take his coat off. He's busy he is. He's alright as long as he's eating. He moved cos he was sat on them. Don't you dare take his sweets, you've had yours. No you've had yours. No not one. They're Craigy's. ones. So you should be rich then? She will be now won't she? Plenty of money all to yousen. As long as she pays the bills. Well she's got her seventy odd, it should be sixty what should it be? What's that? Your money. How much do you normally get? Sixty summat. Sixty three. She should she should get sixty three so she'll get a seventy three today, were it today you got it or Saturday? Saturday. So she got it Saturday Wednesday and Monday,I bet you hadn't had that before eh ? No. All three in a week. Very nice. Aye that's not bad, nearly two hundred pound. Only with your help. Well I couldn't see you with no money. Can't we get some money from somewhere else? No we've got it we've got it from everywhere we could think of didn't we? And let's face it when they go to school they can have free school dinners and then we can get them free clothes as well can't we? Yep. Oh that's easy that one. I know how to do that one, that's a doddle. Dead easy. That's Yeah as soon as they start school write in and you apply for him, when does he go to school? Next June is it? Next September int it? No this September. No he's only three. Yeah. Next September, gotta be four. Gotta be four to go to school. Gotta be four now? Yeah. Four. Thought it were three. Four. You've got another year to suffer, you're not getting off that light, we had to. So you're gonna suffer an'all. I thought it were three when they went to school. No they, they go four and stop till they're sixteen now. You can't have the other kind cos the other kind's our Gary's. Oh! They altered it, you used to leave at fifteen didn't you? Now they lea you've got to l stay till you're sixteen. I heard they were on about moving it to eighteen. It were fourteen when my dad left school, and I were fourteen when I left cos if your I were fifteen. birthday was on the eighth of September or before, if it was in the summer holidays or up until the eighth of September, you could leave school and my birthday was the eighth of September so I left school at fourteen. Yeah. That's true. Hello my little dumpling. Where, where? Did your boots come down to your house? What boots? His boots. Yeah. Oh. I knew they were in a bag, I couldn't remember if you took them. It's third of February today. Where's me anniversary card? It's her anniversary on Thursday. Twenty six, seven? Seven. Seven, twenty seven years. pop, pop pop. Jake got up this morning I goes going down then? He goes yeah. He goes downstairs and goes up, up. Ah! Matthew up. Well that's one way to do it int it? Look at me. Dog nearly drownded herself. Is it a girl? Yeah. Nearly drowned herself, put a bowl of water down for her Fell in it? and she'd fell in it and she were having right fits. I should think she was . what's up with dog ? And she were wet through, she were laid in side of cooker Yeah? in gaps of cooker, she were laid there. What's she whining at? I picked her up and she were wet through, had to put fire on and I laid her in front of fire and I thought dog's having fits . Cos he picked it up and he gets it bad tempered doing this. Now if you'd've told us that last Thursday we'd've thought He picks her up and he's throwing her . she'd thrown it. No you've gotta look after your doggy. She's gotta keep it in kitchen. Yeah cos it ch it chews everything. Oh. Yeah. Get it shot. And it, it pooing all over, the house stank Yeah so at least in kitchen you can clean it up easy. So they have, people come down and they have looked at it have they? Yeah and they're having it. They're gonna give me fifteen on Thursday. House she's on about. No house. Oh house? Yeah. They've been before haven't they? Oh yeah she's been a couple of times to see if I'd swap. And now I've decided to swap. You're definitely moving? Yeah. Good. You're getting out of the street anyway aren't you? Cos she's got got gas central heating in house. Oh well that's even better for you. And I goes well we're smokeless and and she goes I'm not bothered she says I'll do you a swap. Mummy. Ah well. Mummy What? Well within next six week we should hear you're moving? Yeah. Cos it only takes about six week dunnit? It don't take long now does it? Yeah it's only about six week. She's coming Wednesday to to help get these down Dirty! to her house, her husband's having these and we'll go to council. Wednesday. Oh that's alright then innit? She's leaving me her she's leaving me automatic washer in for me. Is she? She having a new one? And all her carpets. What, you leaving yours and she's leaving hers? Well it's best innit really? Well carpets never fit one house to another anyway. Yeah. Cos I know mine, my living room carpet, I had it cut up for me stairs didn't I? And er the big bedroom carpet ended up in small bedroom down here. Are you alright ? You take his coat off Joe. Are you cold anybody? No I'm just, finish me coffee Do you feel cold? I'm off. I'm gonna light a fire. I'm gonna go mad and tidy up I think. It's about time I hoovered that dump. I were tidying up at half past six this morning. You just talk as you normally talk, you know? Yeah. I were with them blokes Saturday at work and er one of them said to me where are you from and I says why? He says I bet you're from Yorkshire I said well what makes you say that? He could tell by your accent couldn't he? Yeah. He says well I used to work in er er Doncaster Yeah. I said that's just down bloody road from where I, where I live like cos er I used to work for their rival, G E C well they were A E R when I worked for them. Yeah I worked at A E R yeah. Oh he said oh! Yeah it's er watch it, empty one in cupboard, it usually is, yeah. Some on the top table anyway. Oh. there it is, he's stuck it at back. My beloved son hides everything. I know he were here other day when I come up. What day was that? Don't know, can't remember. Well he hasn't said you'd been. Erm on a Wednesday or Thursday. He were in bed on Wednesday. when I come down. Yeah supposed to have been bad, it were just er a con so he didn't have to go to college. Yeah. As usual. But he come in to sussed out? Yeah. I'll tell you that later. Yeah erm yeah he come in Thursday, he'd got an headache and er Tuesday but he'd got an headache, a sore throat and I don't feel well and I don't want to go to college, you know, and all this rubbish. So I told him to take these tablets and says if he felt no better he'd better get to doctors, well he didn't even move out of bed, apart from summat to eat Yeah. and I got up on Thursday morning and the little get had pissed off, went to Cadets and everything. So on Friday he tried to pull same stunt again so I says oh no you're not, I says we're not playing at that, I says chuff that for a lark, I says what do you think you're playing at? So he didn't like it cos I made him go. It sounds a bit weird this, you know, when you carry it about? Ooh I hate it, me. I've got fire on, I left it on all dinner while I were outside . Can I have a look? Yeah, I'll show you it in a bit. Mhm exactly what I Oh God Got a What? Oh I'm, no I'm being what you call Oh yeah. Yeah, yeah I'm just finishing that tape up. She give me twenty! Twenty? How long did she think you were gonna bloody tape like? God knows . I'm only second one now, it took me about three or four days to do that. Take it down our street, that'll enlighten them. Ooh yeah. I ain't taking it down your street, you're mental. You're cracked. Well we've got a meeting this week, I'm gonna have a go at him again. I thought you'd of heard something by now. Bloody rubbish all over garden, Gilly's over back was ? He said have you seen Kevin out in street I said I'm not fucking hell would I want to see Kev for? And I hadn't been out of bath long I says don't knock on my bastard door again I said, I'll wring your neck . What did he think you were still going out with him like or what? must think I've nowt else to do and watch down street. Better things to do with me time than sit and watch the up and down street. Well that's it. You're not usually in, you're down at your mum's. Or out shopping. I've just been shopping with Maggie this morning. You have? Went to Nettos. Not bad Did you know there is it really? you can't pay by credit card or cheque. Can't you not? No. I only had about seven pound on and me bill come to about fourteen quid. Alice were having I said just lend me that twenty pound note cos you, and God knows what she thought the bill was I says I've got seven pound, I says just lend me your twenty pound note, I says you'll still have enough to pay I says and I'll give you it back when I get home, you know? Mm. Oh I'll pay for mine first and sh she'd already rung mine through till like, little dickhead. Anyway Maggie says oh bugger it she says here you are I'll pay for it so I give it her back as soon as I come home. And Alice was saying well I'd never been before, I didn't know it were that cheap. Hers only come to six pound summat. Yeah it's not bad. Yeah. I was, I got one of them big soap powders before Christmas, I'm still using that. Did you get that? Is it Je ? Yeah I got one today cos Maggie says it's alright Is it summat ? It's not bad. Well that I've got is Daz, that Daz Ultra Mm. and I've just, all I've had in washer is one nightie, a T-shirt, a jumper, three pair of trousers and a coat Mm. that's all I put in. White patches all over the bloody coat with that soap powder. I did that once with erm that bloody Comfort, I were using that. And that did it as well? And, no it were all bloody big grey streaks and that on me, it were on the sheets. Ooh heck. White cotton sheets that I'd had bought as a wedding present. Mm. Didn't mark come off? But it come all out in grey streaks all over it, I wrote to them. Erm I think they sent me money for a new pair of sheets, can't remember that long ago. Oh I haven't done nowt like that for ages. I've only done it once with crisps I had some were soggy and sour and horrible Mm. and they sent me a box back. Mm I enjoyed that. Yeah. I'm pregnant, me. I hate it. Second of March I go to hospital. Do you? Yeah. Chuffing hell. I don't really wanna go but Our Arthur's been clear clear clear. Is he alright? Yeah he's fine now. Erm oh I asked him about that when I went and he said it were nothing to worry about, it's just Just precautions or something? He said said oh he didn't know what she mentioned it for he said when did she mention it? I said first time I came. So anyway he looked back through and flicked through and he, he looked well it, it's nothing to worry about. So she frightened you half to death she's bloody mental, what's the point in saying that? I said and there's there's me panicking like I said I said I'm going grey as it is now I said without worrying about silly cows like her Yeah well trying to be a doctor. Is she a doctor or just a student? No she's a doctor, I think she's a junior like, she's under him but Do you know there's more g gaps on this tapes than on off, on off, on off. Oh dear. twenty first I got the reminder this morning. Oh. I should say can't be bothered. there's no need for due concern. every frigging month. Mind you Dr Don't you like me smellies? I'm not bothered Kath because er er as I look at it it's more for me to put in front of him when I get to him Yeah. in March. Yeah true, true. Do you know? smelly. Eh? It's smelly. Can you smell it? Yeah. Forty five P for a full bag. Nettos Yeah you know you can buy stuff to put on it when it's dried up. Yeah I know but I can't find it. I want some in mine. It's peach. Well they shrink surely, shrink a bit don't they? Yeah they dry up. Yeah. Yeah well you can buy little bottles of oil and just put a drop in Is that what it is? to freshen it up, yeah erm I've seen the little bottles. Yeah and er somebody was saying on market somewhere cheaper to get it off market erm Cos they sell it at Cleethorpes market with little pot pou pure, yeah them. Pot pourri That's them. They sell all sorts. I've got some But that basket were only half full and it cost me a quid for what were in the basket. I had mine in kitchen and I kept knocking it over every time I opened up and mine's all little bits like Morning Kath, alright? Yeah not too bad, are you? Not so bad love. Have you got any stamps? No I don't think I have, in fact I know I haven't. Are you out? Cos I've got one to post. Can you, are you going up to post office? I'm just going there and getting a pound book. May I give you twenty four pence? Have you got a you only want three Yeah So if I give you that and that can you put me a stamp on please? Oh you are kind John. Or if you want to leave them with me and then I'll, I've got to have a walk up to post office in a bit. No well I'll go there, I'll get a pound book and then it'll give me a spare stamp and I'll not run out no more. Rightio. Yous gonna use them all now aren't you? Do you only get four in it? You get four twenty four pence stamps and two tuppeny stamps, I tell you what you get. Mm but it don't matter anyway, I'll get them then. Okay ta- ta John. Usually they ring before ten past Oh. but they've had quite a good dinnertime today so I think they're letting her stop a bit longer. What time do you usually go in? About twenty past one. Yeah I usually like give them chance to get in class and get Yeah. and then I go in you see. Have you been helping out like? Yeah on a Monday afternoon, I enjoy it. I've been doing it for Yeah cos about three or four weeks. Nice int it? It is, yeah, cos they do painting and all sorts don't they? Yeah I enjoy it really Yeah. but er Have you done it with your little'un yet or is it bigger ones you do it with? No we, we're in our Lisa's class. Are you? Yeah I'm in her class right. Oh I bet she looks forward to that doesn't she? Ah yeah she loves it Yeah, pleased as punch. Yeah. Yeah. I think I might carry on next year though like i in the same class Yeah. I might carry on. Oh you can go on from year to year? Even when Yeah. your kids leave school you can go. Yeah. Oh can you? Yeah course you can. Used to be one about I think it's nice, me. fifteen years , Veronica she took bad and weather held her back Cos it gets you it's summat different. It does. They enjoy it, everybody Yeah. that has volunteered, they enjoy it. I do I love it. alright, mind you I still get a bit nervous now, I get a bit don't know why, I always You get used to it. always have done, do you know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. You get used to it though don't you? Yeah. I think you do. Well what you doing helping them paint, drawing and all that? Well I've er I've done, just done something er different every week, last week I were like er listening to them all read Yeah. on computer with them. So Have you learnt them to bake yet? No I don't cos I can't frigging bake myself so I'm hopeless. Yeah when Joyce went she were learning them to bake she says I think she got that used to baking on her own and then they all tried to dive in it you see and she were saying don't do that. Oh my God Supposed to be showing them what to do and Yeah. you know, making it get a cake each. No they haven't done well I haven't done it with them yet anyway, put it that way. Ah. Well I know er it were Wednesdays Joyce used to come in. Well I'm supposed to have Wednesday mornings that was the arrangement, Wednesday then I had to go into hospital Mm. somebody took it, you see Oh! and so I'm excited then, do you know what I mean? I were just so psyched up on Wednesday and then I had to go in on the Friday before so I didn't It's a shame you weren't helping out at Christmas, you'd've been able That's it. with costumes and everything, you'd've loved that. Oh I did I went in, I went in to help them with anyway, I went in and did that with them anyway. I think that's best bit of helping them. Mm. Their faces when they see them with costumes on Yeah it's nice int it? it's great, yeah. Well it's quarter past any road Is it? Yeah. Oh I'll just have a walk up I think. Just have a steady walk. Ta-ta She's being a little shit-arse cos she Noel Edmunds She's not she gets me woke up in middle of bloody night. I don't woke you up in middle of night, it's before No bloody midnight. You're telling big whoppers again. Well I like to tell bloody whoppers. I know you do! I'll get any bugger into trouble if I can. I know . Maggie does that. No I had kids on it other day, you'd've laughed but that tells all about it, all God knows what Mm. what have you all different things. Oh you get a twenty five pound gift voucher? Yeah. And then when you've finished doing it you just fill a book in. How long are you supposed to have it for? Just for a week. Oh. Only one week. Mm. Well it seems easier that way when you think about it dunnit? Mm it's a lot better. Well they only pratt about with mine now and again. What, your dictionary or your microphone? Nay s scanner. Scanner? Yeah I do. Oh yeah, she's got a thingy erm what is it? Who do you work for, K G B? Yeah Ca can I borrow it? Have it down our street. You got a tape recorder and frigging hell. No, no, they automatic What is it? It's a scann you know what they use on tills when your goods are going through? Oh aye. One of them. Oh I've been doing it for a long time haven't I? Well over a year haven't you? Ooh I've, yeah, I've been doing it about three years. Is it three year now? Mm. Yeah she's, she's got it plugged into phone socket on wall and when she buys these things it's got a and it goes You know them codes? dib dib Mm. Bar codes mm. Yeah and she gets points for doing it don't you, you've been saving them up haven't you? Yeah three three hundred points a month. That's what she gets. So she's saving them up for a Erm one of them Black and Decker Workmates for Fred Workmates. Yeah that's it. to save him nagging at me. Yeah, shows you how to fill it in and everything. Anyway How the hell can you fill it in, cos you can't bloody write! Well I can try hard can't I? She copies it out of book. London? Maggie comes from London, that's her real accent. Oh. Cos if you see on top it says regional accent. That means where you got it from. And you think that we're going to fill this in? No you don't fill that in,I fill that in . Well she's not having my bloody name in here is she yours? mine's down. She says I could put hers down, you says I could put yours so stop telling big whoppers again . It gives you an example how to fill it in and everything. Well yours isn't down for today. Oh No it goes further on than that, I'm on tape three. Oh I see. She's on tape two aren't you? Cos I changed it over It's er Alice's granddaughter. She can't half talk, she's only two and a half but aye and when she sets off that's it. Mind you Terry's the same. Yeah. Well I got er Craigy on it today er but he don't talk. It's er er Stephen, college? Do you know a Stephen? Stephen's mate. He come to call for Stephen this morning so I collared him while I'd got him. He's got er a video box of mine so I were him asking about it. I got John in shop. Bloody housewife. That's it. If she's on, her name, that's on that, that means I've just started tape. Well when's yours on? One before page. Oh. Oh Linda, housewife. I know. Degrading me. Why do you have to put the bloody age down? Tell them to shit. What's she put on for me? Thirty plus? Tt ooh alright. If I'd've put your real age you'd've said You put tw twenty one plus for me, mine. Yeah. What twenty plus sixty five? No, just put twenty one plus. Oh I'll put twenty one plus for you. I'm not, that's cheating! I'm not sixty five yet. You are next month. Alright then I'll put sixty four plus. So are you gonna do it? Are you gonna have a go? I'll think about it. Oh she's at it again. Do you know she says she'll do it and then she says she won't. She does that just to upset me don't you? Well I had a phone call, well it was there on Tuesday they asked me, they asked Fred asked me to ring back Wednesday morning so she rang me Oh! I know who you're on about I was just thinking who you were on about then. Who am I on about? Mrs . Yeah. She rang me at half past ten, I'd forgotten all about it till phone went and I says ooh I've lost your phone number. Do you want to take it again? And will I do Cuckoo Lane on Thursday and Friday. What this week? All day? Yeah. Well Mind you it's a, I've be I've been and had a look rou er round there this dinnertime, quarter to eleven sh er quarter to twelve she's supposed to start. Cuckoo Lane? Mm Travis You know the middle school and round there int there? there's Travis Road and Manor Road school. Travis School. Oh right up there. I'm just thinking Near church. Round near church. Near church down Cuckoo Lane. Yeah I know where you mean. I went to see where, she puts lollipop in school like and I went to see exactly she's supposed to start at quarter to twelve so I went round there for quarter to twelve about five past twelve when she , it's like yours. No kids? No bugger comes. But she's re been reported no end of times That's it. Aye cos Quarter to twelve while gone one o'clock. You what? No breaks,supposed to do. Well I'll sit in car. I might not stop If there's no kids what's the point of There's nobody comes out she says. And then it's well it's fi about five to three in afternoon. Five to three? This Travis School is a nursery school Oh you've got babbies. and you've got some er some comes, most of them comes out at half past three from this, from Travis School, and then you've got to wait while Manor comes out. Manor comes out. They don't come out, well about ten to four. Mm. Not too and I'm putting bus fares now. Yeah I would do, what is it, thirty five, forty five? No not just around there, Eh it is you know. It is after half past three. They charge you know that er bus stop at bottom of bridge? I got on bus here and he charged me thirty five P! After half past three it is Irene. Well I've only been from Don't forget, bus fares change. Make no difference. and round to church. Yeah. Hey that's only one five. bus stop in between me and you. There's only that bus stop and then it turns down you yet they charged me thirty five pence and that weren't even half past three. That were in afternoon that. So I bet that's thirty five to forty five, is it forty five after thirty five before, forty five after? Mm. Cos they charged me twenty five on Little Nipper and it's cheaper on Little Nipper than bus. But they didn't half charge. Cos I nearly died I got on bus other day and they charged me eighty five pence I looked at me clock and it were twenty past nine. See I, mind you whenever I'm late you see I can get on it for twenty pence except for first thing in morning. Well that's beside the point. That's beside the point. Oh aye I always charge them bus fares. Well that's it, I don't blame you. I don't blame you at all. I don't see why I shouldn't. I've been to Nettos this morning. Have you? Who with? Alice took us. So now Steve's got to take me to bank, mini bank, to get some money cos I've got none. What did you buy? Er I got some tinned stuff sugar, sugar's fifty one. How much is their sugar? Is it still fifty one? Fifty one. Bread's twenty five I don't buy that kind of bread. For twelve cakes it's thirty two, for twelve cakes. Beans are seventeen, tomatoes are sixteen Yeah well erm I'm on about big tins. They've dropped them Mm. you get little'uns. they've dropped them H Ps down again in thingy. Have they? Seventy seven for a four now. How much is that, twenty Where, in Kwik Save? They're all doing it, they're all buying three now, putting them in threes. Yeah. Tesco is, all that. Trouble is they're that expensive. People just keep buying the buggers. Well you see Fred will only eat H P beans so Oh we only eat H P. Well there's only Fred has them you see cos I don't like them so I only buy medium size tins to start off with. Bill only likes H P beans and I give Maggie a tin of them seventeen P beans and I says throw the tin away before he sees it and he couldn't tell the difference. And, well Fred opens them himself you see because it's only now and again he has them. Oh. See it's very rare, it's only probably once a month. Yeah I got me coffee So I don't it don't bother me. I got some of that washing powder these were all on about and a few of them had got it, automatic washing powder, it's only one ninety nine for a three point five box. And your washing comes out alright doesn't it? Maggie's has come out alright, she got it. Well now what, er it's only bloody names that's difference in bloody washing up powders That's it, cos it's all the same stuff. in washing up powders. It's all the same stuff. Aye I were reading that they did a survey on it didn't they? Yeah they're all one. They only put different names on. Yeah this one's called There's about, yeah there's about two Ooh! there's about two companies. There's Lever Brothers int there? Then there's Proctor and Gamble int there, the other one? Mm. I don't know. And they cover a multitude of them. Yeah. They don't say. I noticed, I were looking at prices, they're all different prices. I mean it's same with Marks and Sparks, you buy owt at Marks and Sparks it's only because when they have them packed, they've got to put their name on it. Yeah. You're paying for name aren't you? That's the only trouble. Because they do with potatoes, with crisps and that. When Fr when Fred worked at Higgins packets of potatoes Did they? Yes! Tt crafty bleeders aren't they? All them pre-washed potatoes that's in bags Yeah cos when we went to Cleethorpes you were on about they were Fred's taties. Yeah. Cos I, I were asking if they wanted a baked tatie and that and we stood waiting for them and you noticed on sack you had them didn't you? I didn't. Yeah you didn't want one. No And we were stood waiting, she noticed sacks and she says these are from Fred's where he used to work. He used to work at Higgins. Yeah I remember you saying that now. But er I wondered what that was then . Video. Four hour tape, one ninety nine. Where? Where? and Britannia. Mm have to get some. I prefer the four hours. I owe your Arthur one I'll have to get one, get one Aye he mentioned that. I got accused for you! did he give me a bollock did he give you a bollocking over it or He give me a bollocking over you. Tell him to , tell him to Well he didn't know it were you. He, who did he accuse? Me in first place and then somebody else. It were that Blind Fury what he give babby. Oh I went down and he says to me have you got my Blind Fury? I says no, I says you give it to erm and I'm trying to Give it to think of your lad's name and I'm saying you give it to erm tt erm oh yeah I remember, but he'd already told me off. He he says I give it to Maggie, I says you didn't give it to Maggie I says you give it to Linda's lad. Oh aye little'un, he come down he says, she's gonna give me a tape in return. I says yeah, he says I remember now, it doesn't matter. I thought thanks Get one and give it him and then I'll give you money for it. One nin one ninety nine. Mm I'll have to remember that, cos they're better than the three hours aren't they? I have to say I prefer the four hour cos I can get eight hours' taping on mine. Mm. That means I can get about three or four films on, on one tape. You're aren't you? Yeah, our Ken's is. Yeah. And me mum's is long play an'all now. What's yours? Just same as mine int it? Mm Ordinary? Yeah mine's same make as yours. Yeah I know. Mm. I got instructions off you to be able do you know I couldn't do that timer for love nor money. Well they'd never, they hadn't made a long player Amstrad did and now one or two of them are now aren't they? Sharp mine. Amstrad were first weren't they? Well I mean it's same where they've brought a double one out haven't they? Oh Bill's got it. What the double video? Yeah you can only play on them can't you? Yeah, yeah it's not compatible or summat er it's compatible with his telly when he hasn't got the Sky on and if he's got the Sky on he's got to mess about I sat watching him for days messing with it and then I says to him have you got it on your V U channel? He says what V U channel? I says your V U channel I says your video channel. I didn't know there were a video, I says get your he just tuned it on any channel, I says get your remote control for your telly I says and click Yeah you bring up the spare channel. I said downwards, I says normally it's the last channel backwards. So he clicked it all way and it come up I says now get your green line I says straight down middle and tune it in. Anyway day after I says have you done it? Well that's it it shouldn't cos they take Well they take it in to set it up I've got Tyne Tees on mine now. the other one, so we left it on that channel, channel nine I think it were. You've got what? I said I've just tuned Tyne Tees in to mine My Tyne Tees has gone funny so I can get it on video now. Mine's gone whacky it's gone stupid and spotty and fags have gone up a penny. When? Today. Again? Who said? Pru what they call it. Do you know they're supposed to only go up in budget these bloody things Yeah they are. and I, John's put his up three times since. from Kwik Save? One fifty six, they'll be one fifty seven then. Cos Fred says to me More than Conways? Yeah. Fred says to me fa fags have gone up a penny. Down in this shop they're one eighty nine for a packet of cigs. They started at one seventy seven after budget, cos what were they? One seventy four weren't they? Mm. No I don't know One seventy nine he put them up to. I buy now. Yeah one seventy nine he put them to, and then he put them up to one eighty two or summat and then they've gone up to one eighty nine I think they are. keep telling me they're putting them up a lot in the budget. They're trying to get them up to three pound a packet, that's what they're trying to do. stop people. Yeah. I think it's a load of cobblers me, it's frigging wrong. It's not fair. Innit? I'm not paying three pound a packet Well I'm not either. frigging it's trying to do working class out all frigging time. Well there's a lot of these old people never move out of house Well that's it. and that's all And they've worked all their bloody life. that's all They can't afford Yeah I think it's bloody disgusting. It's not fair. Make you sick. I've still got that irritation No she did it at doctors. I got an eyelash stuck right inside fold, and I couldn't er shift it for love nor money, it were there about two or three days before I went to doctors. So he saw it, told nurse it were right in folds down there Mm. and to get it out. And she got this ginormous magnifying glass and she nipped me face, just there. Yeah. You know that skin just underneath? Well she had some they were like right slim at end and then went like that, and she got the fat bit and went crrrk and it hurts like mad. Well she said she'd got it out but Do you know what er soothes sore eyes and that, and it's an old fashioned remedy Tea bag. Dead tea bag. cold milk. T cold cold tea. Cold tea Yeah. I thought it were a tea bag. Cold milk as well. Well you could use tea bag, cold tea. Mm. I always used to use that on babbies for, you know when they get cold and weepy eyes? Use cold tea bag or cold milk. Mm. Never tried it. It just irritates, it's not sore now, it irritates. I don't like to go and see So I keep trying to get me eyelashes and push up. eyewash things. I just use cold I've still got that on. Put it in a basin and Ooh. stick tea bag in it now, cos I mean it used to be tea didn't it, all at one time? Yeah. Stick tea bag in it now and then just keep Oh. bagging it with tea. splash it out. Mm. Yeah. Well I put me clothes out at twelve o'clock, I says to Linda if it holds out for a couple No I haven't bothered to put mine out. if it holds for a, well it's jeans, I thought well Oh. it'll get mainly dry and I can finish them off in here can't I? Which is a lot better. Have you been to that Nettos? Pardon? Have you been to that Nettos then? Yeah. Freezer's still empty. They had some of them chickens in for one pound thirty odd, you know when it's got sign up on video? Mm. Two pound eight ounces, that's all they were. I thought no wonder they're one pound thirty odd! See size only of them, little scrawny spoggies You may as well as go in garden and pick all these spoggies up, you'd get more meat on it. And they'd got some funny things but they'd got foreign names and I thought well Well it is a foreign shop. Well I know that but there is English names on a lot of stuff except certain stuff and then it's in foreign and it's I think it's er Denmark Yeah. It's Danish. It's not so bad if it's got picture, you know what's inside it then. Open it. Oh aye yeah they'd make me buy it. Eh you can't use a cheque, Access Card, nothing. Can't you? No, I had to borrow some money off Maggie this morning to pay me bill. Cos I didn't quite have enough. Mm. So I straight Probably cos they've been done that much. So you've gotta pay cash. Mm I say probably cos they've been done. Well that's stupid having a ginormous supermarket They've cut price an'all int it? Mm. Yeah. Well they're all half price virtually aren't they? Yeah. Cos what's a loaf of bread, fifty eight innit? Then you see cash they can fiddle. Yeah. They can put half down through books and other half Yeah true. in their pocket. So no matter what they do they're lumbered all way round aren't they? You see but with cheques, they can't Yeah. they've got to go through books. It would annoy me that. Ooh! Mm Cos me bill were fourteen quid. Have you lost some weight love? No I fucking haven't. And she's just complaining she's put some on, I've got a fat belly I'm like a pregnant duck. Yet you're looking as if you've lost a bit off your back. No. It's all walking she does. Up and down, up and down. Walking bloody walking I do. Yeah. I'm taping you even though you said I couldn't. Are you? Yeah. So I did it anyway cos later on you would have said well you could've taped me if you want like you always do so I did it anyway . Mind you I wouldn't say owt. No, no I've gotta talk later, well I'll talk to you when I've switched that off, talk for about five minutes and I'll stick your voice on. Cos where's your accent from? Yorkshire . I thought so. I were born and bred in Donny. Fred I know but you could've been fetched from Grand Canaries. Fred Well I haven't got Fred's voice so I can't put I was saying Fred weren't. I know he weren't, Durham weren't he? Yeah. Mm yeah. He's a Geordie. Is that the one, have I filled it in? See I've got to remember, you see a few of them I had a load of them all talking, you know when I were at school? Mm. So I just put mixed, school, male and female, mixed strangers Mm. so that'll cover for people that I don't know. I've lost me pen now. Do you know I put that pen down and everything else and it disappears. Thank you for taking time for this interview, well that's a load of crap cos I didn't give time. It's not yourn it mine. Well you're supposed to have showed it. I've showed you it! The people to be interviewed oh! Yeah but you don't! You don't! You're telling fibs. Didn't know you were getting a voucher . Who's getting a voucher? she says she gets a twenty five quid voucher. Aye she does. She ought to buy us something didn't she? Yeah. I reckon she ought to share it. Half a pair of knickers and a new bra . Oh right. Oh put your order in. She ought to share it. Yeah. Don't you put my age, just put a plus there. Twenty one. Well you're sixty four, can I put sixty four? No. Oh. Can I just put four, plus four? Twenty one plus. Twenty one plus sixty four? She's got the , she's had the on a long time oh I know that. I know what she's like So I'm allowed to put it now cos I've said it? No. aren't I? She's a bloody shit Well I told you didn't I? Yeah. I'm saying yeah I never looked at it, I automatically put it down I didn't give my consent. No you didn't Irene, I never heard you, her give you your consent. No I didn't I says I'll think Linda will you stop siding with her. I said I'll think about it didn't I? Yes you did didn't you Irene love, yes. I know her thinking. She says no you can't, I might do and then when she's ready to go out she'll say you could've taped it. I done it. Well that babby's jumper's not coming on. I've got two thirds of back and I've been doing it a month. Ooh. You're not doing very well then are you ? I keep going wrong with me cable, I keep pulling it to front instead of back. I can't do that bloody thing, it goes arsehole upwards and all over the place. What cabling? It's easy. And I've been, yeah it's easy enough but You've put me off now, do you know what I'm putting in your age? What? Thirty plus . Well that's alright. You're right. It is? Aye. Thirty plus thirty four . Thirty plus thirty four. Get lost you Question mark if, if they add them if they add them together she's gonna stab me with screwdriver now cos I put that She's crossing it out, she don't want her age, she's crossing thirty four out . I bet she changes it to twenty one or summat. Have you crossed thirty four out? Right. We'll say you're thirty plus then. Right I'm going. Okey-cokey, I'll see you later. Right I can put me feet up now. And I shall see you when I see you. Yes. So take care. Right love, tarrah. see you. See you later duck, bye. It sticks . I'll turn it off for you now then. Shall I turn it off? Yes please. Right. that baby, she's only got seven weeks left. Well you can't Cos I says what you doing still working here, you know, that's what we'd just been on about Yeah. cos she told us er Tommy said she had to pack jobs in Yeah. and er apparently she's packed that cleaning job at cleaning job at oogie erm er ooh Samantha's been at me coat again. Yeah. I know. she packed that cleaning job in at er, what do they call it? Doctors Oh yeah? she used to do at doctors or summat Mm. she packed that one in and she's packed the one in at, you know disabled school? Oh yeah. She packed that one in and she says she's still doing this for another two two week I think she says and that's erm what you call it? That'll, she's got seven weeks to go so that'll leave her five Five weeks to go. But it's er leaving it a bit short notice innit? Just for five weeks. Mm. Cos I thought, I thought I'll take it out, I finished that tape, this is a new one. Oh you're doing well then. So I put them two and a half up to press with this one and then I can turn it over and I'll be on to third side. So ready and just And I've got the dumplings done I've just gotta three dumplings. Three! When I put Three. Terry don't eat them. When I put three or four in my pan I can't get nowt in. Well you can't, there's only three dumplings for Bill. Aren't you doing none? He won't eat dumplings, if he sees dumplings in a stew he'll puke. Will he? Yeah. So I've gotta get them cooked before Terry comes home. What, take them out? Yeah. Weird! Yeah he ooh no, he don't like dumplings. Oh I'd've thought he would've done. But then again they like all different things. Mm. Jackie was about to say well I'll see you then tomorrow and before she could get the tomorrow out I says about Thursday, alright? Er who's fetching thing home? She's coming up tonight, she's getting what's his name to look after the boys and she's coming up Oh she's coming by on the, on the two fifty or the two Did you notice she says she didn't have owt and she'd left it at home? Yeah. Anyway she went to shop she bought sweets and nappies. And yeah I were gonna say she went up to shop and had nappies. Yeah I know I saw her. Cos she had er Cos I shall go for it one pound eighty odd I shall go for it mesen tomorrow, you see I've got five pound in house which Yeah. I'm giving you Yeah. and that is the other two pound I owe you, leaving me three. Yeah. Cos I knew I'd got enough to give you back, that's why I wanted to borrow it Yeah. and I thought bugger that I shall go over and get it mesen tomorrow. No let her come up with it tonight. No I mean if she don't. Oh. I shall be up for it tomorrow. Well she says she's phoning you So I thought no, you're not getting away with that one. No, don't do it again. No, definitely not. She stated today. Yes. And I thought Well I think I think she's spent all that money what she's got off already because She got her Family Allowance this morning as well. No she ain't got the Family Allowance, she says oh I was gonna leave that cos I says to her I says have you drawn your Family Allowance? She says er no then she afterwards I says well don't forget to get Kath's money she said tell her I'll phone her and I'll be up about half past six, I'll have to go and draw me money. So it's the Family Allowance she's got to draw today. So she's spent all that seventy odd quid? Yeah. It's a hell of a lot to spend in two days and the shops are shut on Sundays. She's gone and owed a telly and a video, God knows how much that cost her. Oh good God! Ha! I didn't realize it was still on. No it's nearly finished. Oh. That side of tape's nearly gone, a few more minutes and then it's finished I think. Sing a song. Oh aye yeah, I can't sing. Eh you should hear it with Irene I thought she were gonna stab me with screwdriver. Taping her earlier and she ke it's cos I kept going to put sixty four on to tt you know that thing I fill in to say who's on it? That I know Yeah. who's on it? Yeah. And er she picked screwdriver up, well she thought it were a pen and I thought God she's got a screwdriver and she's gonna stab me and I put thirty plus thirty four Yeah. and did it like that, so she scribbled thirty four out and left thirty plus. Thirty plus. I thought ooh dear me. It were funny. I thought it were funny anyway. Our Steve's got eye patch on now, he's had the doctor out. Have you been talking to him today? Yeah. Did he tell you if he's seen Stephen? He never mentioned him. Oh. I thought doesn't this take a long time just for a little tiny bit? Do you know it is, it's a little tiny but it's going on for ages and ages. Mm. It's to stop me turning tape over I'm sure I think it said five six seven eight nine ten or summat on one side and then it said six seven eight nine on other side. It sort of doubled up, or summat like that, so she crossed them all out and changed them. Ooh she's a . Why? There were two sixes and two nines Well and two eights and what have you. well still ca she can't just in ten. Well she didn't do them. Oh Somebody else did. She just picked boxes up and delivered them. Oh. So it was like Well can't they count to ten? I don't know. They didn't bleeding look it, the Well you can have half an hour in the morning and half an hour at night, that's an hour. Yeah. I got Michael to finish filling other one up today . Just talking about owt and nowt and I know but if she s she starts talking she never bloody stops. No er when Maggie's talking, if she knows it's on she always tells me when to stop it. Depends what she wants to say. Same as you, only time when you didn't know what you thought and you've got to call everybody names and everything cos you don't know what to say, you can't think of forgetting it's here. I know. Well that's your fault. No it isn't. If you'd've just switched it on when I come in it'd've been totally different. I wouldn't've known. I know but we've got telly on and everything haven't we? So? They've got background noise. You don't worry about that. Oh I always turn telly off. Why? I don't know. I don't know if it can pick voices up with telly on . Well it should pick it all up if it's a good, good enough mike. Well They've been bloody computer games in work, the chuffs. What them little hand held ones? No, on computer. In office? No in tt tur erm turbine we're building, we're building three big'uns, right? What, for abroad? Yeah. They're going to France, well one's going Thur gonna set off, start moving it Thursday, we've got most of it up. Well they've got a computer up in number two, and I went in tonight they're playing chuffing Grand Prix. I said Christ you're chuffing mad, no wonder you stop till ten o'clock. He said what you on about? I should have thought you were flogging on I says, you skiving sods . I thought you could only er do two hours? I thought. That's the impression I've been under but according to form you can do what you bloody want. I do two hours Yeah I know you do. for the simple reason You've got a long way to travel. Yes. If I didn't have so long to travel I'd do two and a half hours . Ooh. to talk to Gavin Oh is he this new one you've ? No he's foreman. Oh. permanent position. I says cos there ain't none. Why, has he already been told? Well I know you've been told different people different things. I'll go and have a word with him See what he says. chance of that. Mm yeah well I posted that one today for you. Yeah well. Oh you got ashtray quick, I haven't even got ! Well d I was gonna say it's your I've got three. Ta. So what did y she say when you told her? You ought to a told her we'd bought one. Bought one what? Timeshare. Oh no! She falls for it l hook line and sinker. Then I forget that I've been joking with her then she tells me off so I don't bother any more. She gets too serious. So what? She were on about Graham, she's seen him loads of times this week. But it's only one week. Last week. Oh. That talk I had to Johnny's not done m a blind bit of good. Waste of breath. So, but, I know that, yeah. They're getting old. But then again Irene and Fred's old and they're not like that. They argue like hell them two now, Irene and Fred. Because he's at home. No. He's done er erm tt what did she call it? Summat like a takeover bid. Now she's been having an argument with the council and while she's been arguing, you know she's got a grievance, while she's been arguing she takes her anger out on them and tells them what she thinks of them. So since Fred's been retired, he says leave it to me and, because he's that soft, nothing's done about it. Oh. And then she starts demanding to know what they're going to do and he keeps saying they're gonna write, they're gonna write, they're gonna write. She says no they're not gonna write, I'm gonna phone them. No don't you phone them, I'll phone them, she says well phone them now. So he'll phone her and she'll say and I'm still sat behind him rabbit, rabbit, rabbit, moan, moan, moan you see. So er they says to him who's that? He says it's me wife and she's as mad as hell, and they says yeah we can hear her from here and s must've said summat about writing and she starts bawling and shouting, oh summat about you've got to write I want a letter by Friday, you're not messing me about no more, you're not talking to him you're talking to me. And then she ran upstairs and grabbed the other phone and Fred had to put phone down cos she wouldn't shut up . So you see they were having a difference of opinion over that and he's saying you shouldn't, you should've left it all to me and she says I've done it for last fifty year and, you know, all this. Yes. And she says you're stupid, you don't know how to talk to them and then they start, you see Fred won't row. And same as she says, she needs a row to clear the air, so picks on him and he just ducks. Why do you have a go back at her? Well I went in and I says where's me cup? And Fred said see, I told you you'd got to tell her. I took off. I says where's me cup? She says I threw it at him. Why didn't she throw her own? That's what I says, that went an'all apparently. What about his? That went an'all. Cos I'd been there that morning Oh well. and er my cup were out, her cup, Ev's cup and Fred's cup So all four went? Aye, she were washing them or summat and he were annoying her so she threw them all. And she phoned me up and says what are you doing? I says nowt, she says good I'm coming. Every time she gets arsey now she comes down here. Oh well. I thought she were gonna stab me with screwdriver today. Which screwdriver? Yours on table. Thought bloody hell. Tormenting you know how she torments, says yeah you can do it then you can't, then you can, then you can't? Yeah. Well when she come in I asked her if we could tape so she says yeah course you can. Then she decided to be awkward, like she always is, and said I says oh it's still taping you know and I s she said summat, I can't remember what it were now but I was saying, I knew that'd happen, one minute yes then no, then I'll think about it, I says and if I didn't start it when you went out you'd be saying you could've done this and that and er so she were chittering , pretending she said I couldn't do it. She said I could and then she were messing about you see. And then I went and showed her all forms, all these form things that they've got I were letting her read it. And What form things? These that are in this bag. And I haven't seen them. Haven't you seen them? That's what I've got I don't get shown owt like that. Oh well, you know. All I do is get mike shoved under me nose. It's not under your nose! No it's under me don't tell lies. no it's under me arse farts . Anyway er it were what you write down, you're supposed to write who you've been talking to, tt what the occupation is er you, how old they are, female, male regional accent and that's, if you were born in London that's your accent you're using int it? Och aye the noo Geordies. Oh well I don't know. Aye all that jazz, and er You couldn't tell whether a Geordie's frigging Irish or Scottish. Well if I know who they are and I don't know where they come from I'll just put who they are day I were talking to them and dash it. I can't fill all answers in I only Why not? I only fill them in that I know for a fact. Cos sometimes they won't tell you. That's, well if you're going to J J's Saturday Yeah she filled tape it. about ten in. Aye a load of garbage. Yeah. Well if you've got a cross-section of I were telling you about Irene, I were filling this thing in and I put right, sixty four I were gonna put sixty four, that were it. So she didn't want sixty four putting down, she wanted twenty one plus putting down. So what I did is I writ thirty plus thirty four, adding up to sixty four and she jumped up and she's grabbing thing off table and she had hold of the screwdriver and I says to Linda thought she was gonna stab me with screwdriver and she weren't, she were looking for a pencil so she could rub it out, well she couldn't and she found this pencil and she scribbled thirty four out. So it says thirty plus now even though she's sixty four. The cheeky sod. Yeah that's exactly what she did. I couldn't stop laughing. Linda were going in hysterics. What did she have to say? Nowt much, just fetched her club money up, had a pratt about all about family and that, different things. Cos I thought oh dear Yes it has swolled Have you left it,wh what did you actually do? I slipped on scaffolding up which is that bigger machine Yeah. and all that frost we've had all last week I never slipped once Made it slippery. this morning, bit of water, and I w I found it. Mm yeah well you would. Straight on your leg again. Straight on me knee. Your knee? Oh. Yeah. So tt I'll report it tomorrow. I were gonna report it today then I got talking with gaffer I were sorting this job out Mm. the crafty sod is er off tomorrow. How come they can take time off yet you can't? He's been there longer than me. Oh. I can, I might have two holidays now, two days' holiday. Well I don't get that, me. What? All these two days' holiday and this, you've had Christmas. You get two point summat days per month worked Oh so you should've got them for January? right? Yeah. And I worked three month before Christmas so I got six point summat days For Christmas. so then I had all Christmas off. Oh! Yeah I get it now. I thought you got Christmas off like we got Christmas off. No. You gotta earn them. I'm on holiday in three weeks, this, fortnight this Friday. Yeah well two days' holiday so That's a fella's knock. Probably Shane or somebody. You can tell. Oh thank you very much. Goodbye. cold out here. It is a bit. Ta-ta. Don't look like we're watching we're watching this. What is it? I says if they lent me it erm well they might want us to watch it now and lend it to someone else. Naked Gun Two And A Half Oh yeah. so she says they were getting it but weren't watching it till eight. And I says oh Steve can't watch it at eight. Er can't watch it after you've watched it at eight,I'm getting right odd here I were gonna say. but she must've told him Why what are you getting? Nowt. Well you were gonna get a video to heck. I thought they were chuffing hard up? They are, they put a pound each. Well they can't be that chuffing hard up then. She's can't be, she had two ten pound notes in her purse this morning. Tt See I can tell knocks. Oh. Knocks. Whether it's a fella or a woman. Fellas always do a fancy knock. We just bang on door. Oh er telly's got a buzz on it and I couldn't get it off, I think I made it worse. Cos I pressed colour by accident and Oh you pratt! Well it's stupid that telly. Is it chuff! It is, it's got that many buttons on it I can't find which is which. Ooh! Well they've only got little tiny bits of writing on. Give us it here. No I've done it now. Well you said it's got a buzz on it. Well you can't use that for a buzz, you use that for a buzz don't you?for a buzz? Yes. Rubbish. What on? All of them. If you turn sound off you can hear buzz. But then again it could be that. It's video! I know it just dawned on me . You dozy sod! I just looked down, I seen it then and ah nelly. You're getting worse. I'm going senile before me time, it's Irene you've gone. Do you know one minute they're alright daft as a brush, and next minute they can't get on with er other people. Oh why worry I can't get on . You never do. Why should I? Cos they're women. They're not my age group. Linda's your age group, Maggie's your Oh I've, who? age group, Linda. She's younger than me. Is she? Thirty four, thirty five. She don't bloody look it. Well she is, she's thirty four or thirty five. Maggie's only forty two, she's only three years old no hang on six years older than me you're two she's three and a half years older than you. Her birthday's in September you'll be nearer before She's a bloody woman! She's still your age. They want fellas that's different ages. I know they're all old bogies, bogies. I noticed. Irene's alright. Irene gets to be a pain in arse. She's a good lass, I like her. And you like her. Nobody's saying that. She gets to be a pain in arse though. Yeah I know. She shoves her nose in when it's not wanted. Then she don't like it when I snap at her. So You want that on don't you? What is it, Roaring Thunder? I don't know. Well I don't, you t Michael Douglas. Shooting people. Ah. Looked like a It's supposed to be good er tomorrow Ah look at bleeding time. Yes I know. They're always doing that Yeah well cos if that'd be Johnny, he'd stop up. Mm. Then pick on for it . Yeah but they bought a brand new video. She says he was still up at quarter past and didn't get up for work until seven this morning, that's what he said in note anyway, summat about he didn't fetch her a cup of tea up this morning cos he didn't get up till seven. Well that's his chuffing fault. I know. I went to bed at half, well between ten and eleven past I know. Only time I go later is on a weekend when I I don't have to go in. I know you don't. I were on about that today, I can't remember who I talked to. Were it Irene or Maggie? We were on about Saturdays, having Saturdays to oursen finally you know, instead of having to go here there and everywhere not bothered about afternoon, I meant night times and that Yeah. and er she says yeah it's about time and I think it were Irene, about time. And we were on about it and working it out. That's what I says to her, like on Friday when you come in by the time we've got yo got you summat to eat and a bath and your petrol and everything ready for the next week filled your car up, that we could call in then but like if we have Saturday night you can either go to bed,sleep on floor or do virtually what you want cos you don't have to go on Sunday if you don't want. True. Only times that I've got to go is Monday to Friday you've got to go. Oh aye there were an enquiry today Why? Why I weren't there Sunday. It were you day off! I says hey, I says Friday were my day off. He says you come in Saturday. I says so? I want a bit of extra money for car. He says why were y weren't you in Sunday? I said I didn't want to. I says there'll be a few more I don't want to either, alright? He says no it isn't. I says tough. Oh dear. He says I'm a granddad I says you look it as well. He said what do you mean by that? I says you're showing your age now granddad. So that's what we've called him all day. Granddad? Granddad. Do you know, it dawned on me, I went in shop this morning for some stamps and he didn't have any and I were gonna go to garage you only get er four stamps in them books now. For a quid? Yeah and two one P stamps or summat or two P stamps or summat Aye you might as well And er I says ooh never mind. And he conned me into posting his mail! It's only just dawned on me, he conned me into posting his mail. Don't you charge him? No. You oughta charge him with spice or summat. No I'm charging for spice when I go in But you owe me a penny Spanish. for going shopping for you. Yeah he'd got some letters, apparently he were going to Post Office later for stamps and everything and er got this letter and seeings I'd only got three he give me his, give me twenty four pence for a stamp so I walked to Post Office, I thought well I don't want no penny or tuppeny stamps. Well that's true. They're no good cos you leave them laying about and they get lost. Yes mine did. What your penny and tuppeny stamp? Yeah. Or your full stamps? I used your stamps on card. I know you did. Stephen left some laying about and I used his an'all. And then when you wanted them I give you mine. Didn't I? Well Mm. Oh going back and get these sweaty socks off. Yeah I know they smell. Aye. Do you know why they smell? Why? It's, you know with heat from fire? Yeah. Well when you first come in they didn't smell, it's only last five minutes. I've always had sweaty feet ever since you married me so don't start. I'm not starting I'm just saying that's when they smell most when you get near fire. What's she doing in shower with a bleeding towel? She hasn't got a towel has she? It's a flannel. It weren't earlier, it were a flaming towel. Mm. You should stop that, I'm going in bath. I know. I'm gonna have a right good wash and I know it's too close but I'm still getting a good wash. Yes and I wonder what that sounds like. Rubbish. Now I don't know where microphone is. Rubbish. Rubbish. Rubbish. Rubbish. I want the Walkman. I know you want one. Irene she were after it today She's not having it, it's mine. It's not You can you can give me it. it's that it's that lady's, she gets it back on Friday. No she doesn't. She's not having it back, not at all, at all , at all . You got him on the C B or something dad says and er he says she won't be up cos gotta take her to the doctors or something Mm. No I'm buggered. Where's me anniversary card I haven't got any money yet love. You're a tight fisted sod Bill, an anniversary card. make sure I've got a bloody card for birthdays and everything. Her birthday's coming up soon. Yeah about Yeah get me a card, it's Thursday, don't forget. Thursday don't forget. No. Thursday. Or she'll hit you. Has your Da has your Dawn seen that video? What video's that? You have, yeah . You took your video back? Yeah, but one of my videos is out oh what video's that that you've got? Naked Gun Two And A Half. Oh! Ha have you seen ? No. It is hilarious, I seen it, Mary's got a pirate and it's er anyhow I re it weren't a brilliant recording like but it's, you know, it's watchable and it's fantastic. Oh. Oh. Do what? cough. Do you know that bit in that er Top Gun where he, where they hit them air brakes sort of thing and the plane was going like that? Yeah. Well it, it shows come on I'm gonna hit the brake, he's got a chuffing accelerator pedal, a clutch and a bloody brake pedal there and he's banging like this and it's brake's not working prop it's, it's funny, but there was a bloody tent there as well er where the Charlie Sheen is like an indian, and he's in this tent and this bloke calls to thingybob and he presses this bloody doorbell on it on this tent, it's funny, I tell you it is funny when you wa er when you actually watch it. . He's bought some cheap and nasty medicine for about thirty five pence got rid of. Yeah she's been on about it. His dad spent a bloody fortune on all different stuff for me. Yeah she just went out yesterday into pharmacy he says right er she told him what she'd got he says right, he give her some Benolin stuff Oh for ? No for, it was for Sharon so Oh has she got it an'all? Oh yeah she's getting it, it's all round Steve's got it, coldsores and all into his eyes, he's got eye infection. Oh it's I know I went down to see him, he's got a really everybody's dying aren't they? I'm not. I've still got it only, I've got the immunity system inside me now. I've had it. I must be good I've been round your mum every day but I haven't got it. Oh. You know when I'm gonna get it? Two weeks on Friday. Why what happens then? I'm on holiday. Hmm. Oh that'll be alright then, don't wanna get it before. Yeah two weeks on Friday. Never fail I always get a day or two before holiday starts. What's that Mutant like, any good? It's alright. Ah well I ain't, I ain't bothered getting any videos recently, I just haven't. I thought What's it like at that shop then? Greens Paki now innit? Is it a Paki who's got it now? Yeah they took it over. that time he took this fridge and you kept asking him if he were selling it cos w it were empty weren't it, and he says no it's a load of rubbish. Well he did, he sold it. Oh. Paki shop, the Pakis are everywhere now aren't they? Yeah. But at least they put stock in the bloody shops don't they? You can get summat can't you? Yeah. Yeah. It's not they're loaded. Urgh oh that's bad! No February tenth, poll tax. Oh. I'm not, mine's paid. Yeah. Oh we, I'm gonna go erm I'm going to It said something in paper today on Friday. they've sent said fifty odd thousand out but if people go in and make arrangements Yeah. it can stop them going to court or if they go in and pay it off they don't go to court. Yeah. Well I'm making arrangements to pay mine er but when I get paid on Friday it were going through, gotta pay him twenty five pounds and then fifteen pounds every fortnight thereafter and it'll take seven months to pay but that's all he can get off us. Mm well that's not bad. And me rent's all off now. All because I got a, I got a job, you know, I got that security job and everything Yeah. the rent went up, right? And by the time I finished that job, I worked for about two month and I were four hundred pound in rent arrears. Yeah but you've got all that sorted now. Oh yeah. I only owe about six quid. You haven't done bad. No. Haven't done bad at all. Mm have you not been working then? Yeah I'm working in Oh. Went back yesterday, tomorrow I'll carry on, Thursday I might have a lay in Yeah I heard it were a right frigging had an argument with Chinese bloke What didn't they pay him then or what? I don't know what w er what had gone off, Mark put, Mark had parked his ca right, he went in his shop he, Chinese is part of a shop of three Yeah? right? And there's a Paki shop and another shop and round there there's a wall Yeah. and cars park in there, you know? Yeah. Anybody that goes to the shops? Yeah but it's a public Yeah. for the public. Right, Mark come in, pulled his car up nea er right near the Chinese but more chinky er more Yeah. thingy like. We were parked Chinese like, you know, waiting cos they normally wave to us if there's any things comes Yeah. and Mark, Mark pulled in, went to Ch went to the Paki shop, come out and started talking to us. Anyway tapped on window for told me to come in and says will you tell your mate to move his car. Yeah. He says pardon? Says what, it's a public place this is isn't, this, this, this area is ours you know Yeah. that's right he says this is Mark, he says come in here a minute, says will you move your car and he says no I won't move my car, he says this is a public area and my car is parked there I've been, been into the shop and I'm talking to my mates. Yeah. Says you will move your car now this is our property you know, the Chinese. Yeah. And he says, he says er he says I will not move my car and I don't get told anything, you know, I'm not doing nothing for you, you don't belong in this country and all this stuff you're bloody Chinese, you know. He says you don't belong in this country, he says you're a bloody Chinese, get back to bloody your own country, you don't tell me what to do in my own bloody country and all this lot. Oh bloody hell you don't say nothing like that. Anyway he, he says, he says right he says Tony, he says to Tony, Chinese boy says do you wanna keep your job he says no, keep your fucking job. Mm. Towed his car off and they, you know, they, they've got a car like and Yeah. er it were this mechanic who lives in who's, who knows a good mate of Tony's and he's told Tony Tony told him like and he says right, he said leave the car to me. Tt. He hasn't, they haven't paid him for this car yet Yeah? to be done, they owe the er owe the bill Mm. they're trying to haggle with him now Mm. but he doesn't take, he don't mess about and they'll lob the car back. Mm. if you were alright, we've not seen anything of you. Yeah. Fine. Going up to chinky er chinky, going to ch chippy in a bit. Well, one o'clock. the chips'll be fresh then Bill. Why's that? Oh. Well they've not warmed them up. If I'd known you was coming I would have done that bit of chicken. I've got some sausage rolls here. I needed some change so I got two sausage rolls, I'm gonna wire them up on microwave in a bit right? Er mixed with some beans and Er got bread Bill. Oh aye . Oh what's, what's the difference between a penis and a works bonus? I don't know. The wife don't mind blowing the works bonus. I were told that other day. I like that one. Do you wanna hear another one? Steve'll like that one. Yeah. Yeah. Er why d why do women parachutists wear jockstraps? To stop them whistling on the way down. Tt told that one as well and why, why do oh what's other one? Why why don't blind people parachute? Don't know. Scares the shit out of guide dogs. Cos I read these in a paper and I thought hey these are very good ones here, I thought I'll get them, I'll remember them. You get worse. It's like our Albert, he tells that many jokes I can never remember half of what he tells me. He told me one twice I still can't remember the bleeder. He's pillock brained, your father, yesterday. There he is with the car, drives straight into the garage and the aerial goes ping! So he's waiting for you to come up and have a look at it. the aerial off the car hasn't he? Snapped it? Mm. Well if he's snapped it the aerial I don't know whereabouts it's snapped. though innit? probably snapped it and If Steve's going to have electric aerial he'll be doing the same thing. He never ever puts them down. Or is it his C B aerial? The C B one says I've only just let you have it! He's forgot it's there . He's not had much sleep though, poor sod. You've got a spare bedroom you know. He won't sleep in it cos I won't sleep in it. What's up with you why? It's still got everything chucked on it. Well It was emptying but it's started filling up again. Yeah. Now we got our drier other day, it come through. Ah did it? Yeah. We can dry dry now, I just leave it, I leave both doors shut and it keeps kitchen warm. Yeah they do. Yes. But you've gotta watch the con mind you it won't make no difference, condensation, will it? Yeah they don't half make kitchen warm though. Mm. I used to have one but he got fed up of me using it so he cut plug off Ah and we ended up selling it . How's your hoover now then? Working so so. It's the moment. Mind you er Yeah well at least it's it's working better than it was. Yeah well next thing is a new hoover. So are you doing the one o'clock or not bothering? No can't be bothered to do owt to be honest. That's just how I feel. Can't wait for me holidays. You going to stay for Tom's thing? No I'm going to Where? Or Or I'm going to Rome innit, Rome? Yeah. cos it's somewhere I'll wait for me gold card to come through and then I can go somewhere hot. That should be here before then shouldn't it? Yeah . Got a holiday. Oh yeah that thing might come so I'll keep a check out in case I see a Yeah, parcel post coming in. big parcel post. midi hi-fi system. Yeah she's won in everything. You won it? Yeah. I won a gold card worth a thousand pound Mm. and er Ah well you're alright. That's , hasn't had much of a rest today so Has he been out all day then? No, he'll be out went out at ten to seven but over a sort of I've been up since seven, I've not really sat down all day. Oh! Quarter of these? Yes please. Oh I haven't had none of them for ages packets of them. That's what everyone says, oh I used to have those. Yeah erm Alice at school, she give me one but hers weren't called them and I said they were called Imps Mm. and these were called summat else but they was exactly the same. Oh I want a bottle of pop have you any in fridge, no? What bottles? No. Oh I'll have a bottle of milk then. Well it's cold Yeah. Orange Bet you're ready for shutting aren't you? What? Thought you said about you're ready for shutting. Forgot what I said then You're cracking up. Oh look at that, I'm gonna be a pig. Mm that's what I've cos I've not been very busy I've been picking, you know like a few peanuts there's chocolate peanuts, there's He's mending car, he's been working all day and now he's mending car it conked out other day conked out other day and he thought it were points, he changed points and I says to him have you changed plugs? He went I knew there were summat now he's changing plugs. What, in the dark? He's got one of them clip-on Oh. oogifibs Oh a couple of them. to do with it. Well that's what I, that's what I've been doing. Nibbling? Nibbling, that's the worse thing I can do. I know. I were just like that when I were at home on me own at night, John used to play dominoes on a Friday night, the kids were in bed I'd be in and out of kitchen Yeah I did picking. too but this one, he hasn't been on nights. Three twenty three please. I've got three I haven't got the twenty but I've got the three Ta. I've just informed him that he can work longer if he wants, I thought smart move. Have you got a bag I can put these into oh there's one over here. I thought I don't see enough of him now,till half past seven and then he says home all day like he was before . I think I prefer that actually. Do you? I do, yeah. Tarrah. Yeah that's true. You can't win no matter what you do. Ta-ta. I know, it's just that I remembered picking milk up this morning to make Maggie a drink, and there didn't seem a lot so I thought I must remember a new bottle isn't there? No. There never is is there? So when I see it cos I thought I have Alice and them, so I and in the room and I fridge. Oh dear . I wonder where my torch has gone, as if I didn't know like. It were on windowsill in corner. You know using it. Yeah. Shan't worry about it That's not the point, he knows damn well it's me snap. There's your spare light up here. I know, I wondered why you'd left it on table. That were mine. Where? In car. Oh and it fell out of your pocket? Yeah. Ah I just wondered, shall I turn this light off? Er yes. Why did you fill this up and leave it on table? I don't know to be honest. It were sat I took it to work one day Oh. and used it. Oh I wondered, Mm oh I thought light were in there then, It is a bit dark innit? You've been to shop, did you get ? Ooh! Me memory don't work any more, it's shut down for Christmas. Where is me pen? There's always a pen in me bag. Do you know, you could've filled that in, I could've shoved it in post box. I know. You'll end up with about a dozen letters on mantel again cos I always forget to post things. Well I'll post that tomorrow. Well there's no rush. Aye you can, yeah. Well usually if there's not a stamp wanted, is there a stamp wanted? No. Yeah usually if there's no stamp wanted I get one of lasses while I'm at work, they'll drop it off for me. I always say will you do me a favour and they shove it in box. Erm ah ? No, shower. shower? Why do you want your hair washing? No. I'm gonna have a proper bath later. See you later. Well I says to her, I says what,do won't they have a big gap? But some of these tapes are funny. Why's that? Well you know where they're working outside all time? And traffic. Traffic and all sorts, see I were talking to Joyce this morning Mm. and, I meant to listen to it but I forgot Oh. and there were buses and lorries and, quite a lot of the tapes, they've got buses and lorries and all sorts, with working outside. With you being a lollipop lady it's bound to happen innit? Mm. Haven't you thought of going back to doctors? Haven't you thought it costs three pound bloody sixty a prescription? Yeah, and he always writes me out a couple and I ain't got the money. Tt. He never decides to leave me one thing. How did Whereabouts did you say your mum were born? Me mum? Yeah. Durham. And your dad was born here? No. Scotland. Scotland? So I'm er I've got Durham, Scottish er me grandparents come from Lee Lancs Lee Lancs? Yeah, me mum always said Lee Lancs Mm. Or was she born in Lee Lancs? Anyway they were born one place and moved one place and then they come to after I were born. Well let's hope they can try and decipher my bloody dialect, because I my granddad yeah, yeah but my granddad, he's Scotch my other granddad was a German, me grandma were Jewish and I were born in London so let them fathom that out. Favom Mm Yeah I just write where you were born, where your cos it says regional accent, I'm assuming that means Kensington I were born, London. I just put London. Yeah well it's London anyway. It's easier. It's like your Billy he Where did you put Billy was born? Hong Kong. No. He was. It says regional accent, well he's Yorkshire int he? He's a Chinese He's a Chinese what? Ah it's, I've got one to fill in, I must remember, Nadine's. She's Turkish isn't she? She's Turkish yeah, they come to London. Ah. Cos the accent she's got is London. Is it? Yeah. Doesn't sound like mine. Yeah but there's different parts of London, you all sound different don't you? Mm. Cos don't forget there's people who's moved from Donny and had their kids in London Mm. and they sound different. Our Billy don't sound like Steve and Gary does he? Where they're proper Yorkshire-ified, our Billy's like a posh sort of Yorkshire. Well he were born in Hong Kong weren't he? Yeah but he g er came here at fifteen bloody months old didn't he? He were talking. Only mum and dad. Couldn't say much more. Ah there she is. Who's that? Nadine. Oh. There's a bit on bottom please write their first name are there any people mentioned above who's first language is not English and that's Nadine Yeah. cos she talks both. Does she? Yeah. I've heard her talking to her dad. Oh. And I s that's when I says to her where do you come from? She says me dad's Turkish. I remember when we stopped out in Bahrain at er How do you spell Turkish? T U R K I S H I mean they You missed summat. T U R K K I I missed I again, I tell you I'm rubbish at spelling, me. Mm they originate from Turkey and then they moved to London. But when we stopped in Bahrain out in Hong Kong, well when we got into Hong Kong, you get this little tiny cup it's about an eighth of the size of that bloody thing, and it's thick and it's horrible, their coffee. What is it? Coffee. We stopped at the airport and they says who wants coffee or who wants tea? And you thought they're coming round with bloody kiddy's toy cups. But it w it was thick, it were bloody rank it was. You've never tasted coffee like it. Thick coffee. I've heard about that before. Oh it's horrible. I like making me own coffee, at least I know I can drink it. Aye. Yeah. I'm hoping that washing dries. It'll dry, the sun's out anyway innit? It's going in again, it saw me put socks out. Don't say it's going in again! Do you know it's never failed me yet, I put socks out Yeah. and it always ends up going right, so they don't dry, right funny so it don't d or it rains. That's why I thought I'll get the stupid things out this morning and then them, they'll all be dried by tomorrow. I can't remember if I've been in bathroom and picked them up, Steve's getting a sod with him getting bath every night Mm. he's er just dropping them. Did I tell you, had Gary paid for his er insurance on that, that er tt if anything happens to him going over to France, he's insured Oh yeah. twenty one quid, Well how long how long's he going, for a week or a fortnight? Fortnight. Fortnight? Yeah. When's he go, May? Sixteenth or nineteenth, somewhere around there. Comes back in June? No? Oh I dunno, he comes back when he feels like it. End of May, beginning of June. Yeah. I've got summat for your Gary. For his ear? No, oh no. Erm he bought that car off Steven didn't he? Yeah. I found instructions. Ah. And I think, I know where they are, I think they're on bed. Oh. Cos I got them out and I thought I must take them downstairs and give them to Maggie for her to give them to Gary. Right. twisted round then gonna say something Oh. Thought while I'm thinking about it I'll do it. You what ? Just saying I'm a stupid bugger. What you done now? I checked Steven's bedroom for washing Mm. But you left round, I've, I have checked bathroom, I took it out of bathroom and guess what, I didn't check? What? Our bedroom. That's on pile in bedroom. I thought ooh! Aren't I . Yeah that belongs to that car. Ah. He played with it once, it's stuck on top of the bloody cupboard like everything else he buys. He's saving it for his kids, that's what he says. Mm. Or he'll end up giving it away as a present, there's nowt wrong with box, car, nothing. He'll save it for his own. Well that's it. If he gets gotta get a bird first. Ah Your Gary's happy as he is, he's enjoying life. He is. That's the mistake Steven's made girlfriends. Mm. Knowing he can't afford them with him being in college Yeah. and then he's just gone mad, I think they've gone to his head. Did I tell you they call him Juan now? Yeah that's a new one innit? Yeah. Be alright if one of the birds turn up here and you say oh hello Florence, oh no I'm not Florence I'm Zebedee. Yeah. You know? Yeah that's true. I'm wondering what that thing is on Maureen's wall, have you seen it? No, ain't been looking. It looks it flaps about, if you look at Maureen's wall near drainpipe you can see this thing flapping all over. I keep meaning to Whereabouts are you looking? You know drainpipe Yeah you've got that little window, then drainpipe? Yeah. At side of drainpipe. You can see it flapping about, you watch in a sec it starts flapping. Can you see it? Mm don't know what that is. I don't know. I keep meaning to see if it's a vent or summat or a piece of plastic. Might have put one in. They've put it in the sun whatever it is. Unless it's that cooker thing, I think her cooker's there. She's got one of them oogies them erm tt fan things. Oh it might be an extractor. That's it. Yeah. She's got one of them. Mm and that's about right place where it is, I wonder if it's that. I dunno but I like her curtains. Yeah they're nice aren't they? Oh. I didn't like them when she first put them up Oh. but they're alright now. Flo's trying to con me. Why? She wants me rails, these metal rails that I've got. She mentioned that the other day didn't she? Yeah. She wanted them so I says to her if she wanted them I was after wooden ones Mm. now I says, now I've seen some wooden ones in her house, I said Yeah. if she wants to swap I'll swap her. Yeah. The crafty bugger says to me, what did she say, they're fourteen pound summat I think she says, these wooden ones Ah, I dunno. and er I says well I thought you'd got some. Now Mm. I'm sure I've seen one in her house Yeah. and she says no, she says one I've got's only a thin one, you want that thicker one, you know with these being thick Yeah. she says so I thought if I buy you one she says you give me them two, I says whoa hang on a minute, I says I've got two windows Yeah. not one window, I says I'm not giving you two for one. Two for one, that's bloody daft. I says and at that price why don't you buy them yourself Yeah. you know? And she says well I thought if I buy you one you can buy other one, I says go and naff off. Well that's daft innit? I says I don't, I says when am I gonna be able to go to town I says and afford fifteen quid for another bloody rail? I says you When you've already got some up. Yeah! She wants me to take them down and swap them for one. Steve'll go mad. Yeah. Bloody would an'all. I thought you crafty sod. She wants them to extend to eight feet, well these don't extend to eight feet, they extend to seven. Oh. And I thought no I'm not, Steve's just cleaned them up. Yeah. He spent about two hours in with them. Have you seen what he's done to ends of them, they've gone silvery, he's rubbed and rubbed and rubbed Rubbed too bloody hard . and he's rubbed all colour off it. They've got silver ends on them ones. I said I says can't you rub harder on other piece. He ain't done them ones yet. He's done these ones. Well they, are they not silvery then? Well he washed this one first and then he went over there and er then it dawned on him that the ends pull off Ah! on ends, so he took the two ends off, cleaned the rails and he was sat on settee watching telly rubbing away and rubbing away and I says hey you gonna put them ends back on? And he'd been rubbing for that long they'd gone that colour. Like my Steven with my new non-stick pans. I remember. He took all the black off. He scrubbed and scrubbed till it all come off didn't he? Mm. How old were he then, about thirteen? No he were younger than that. I can remember that, he come over and told me. How did you get them all black mum, I said they're bloody new ones . Not now. Mm. I want a new frying pan. I keep using me best pan. I ain't got no best pans, I've had my pa most of my pans, they've all near enough come from either Embassy cigarette coupons or Number Six coupons, and I've still got them and I've had some of them twenty bloody years, all them pans. Have you? You know when we saved them Berkeley packets? Yeah. Can you remember what we saved them for? Marion asked me other day what we were saving them for, I said well we saved them oh I remember! We saved them, they were on about cameras and that and then we found out inserts inside it that you got it with that didn't you? Well it was, it was, yeah yeah. Yeah. I've still got stacks of them in kitchen. I think I threw all mine away. Oh we did send for something but I can't remember what. She got one. You know like we got? What did I send off to get Gary them radio earphones? Regal. Oh. You know them that we got to send off for that, I got head bag and you got that? Yeah. Well I s I were saying to Irene, I says did you ever get one? Mm. She says yeah I'm sure we did Mm. I says well if you don't smoke them I says me and Maggie'll get them for you Yeah. I says she'll get Gary to collect them at work and that I says Yeah. and I'll ask you know Yeah. Dave and them to save for me again Yeah. I says and get yoursen summat. Anyway er she rooted about in drawers yesterday and er She find it? she found this booklet and it were like a cheque book Mm. it's got the picture on but it's a cheque Yeah? please send me one blah blah whatever it is. Anyway I were looking and I looked and I looked and I looked and I says well what cigarettes do you use for it? Cos it didn't but same Yeah, yeah. all prizes were the same but it didn't Yeah, yeah. Bloody cigar packets. I said ooh we can't help you with them, I says I haven't the faintest idea of anybody that smokes them. Not cigars. Cos she says don't you? I says no I says I don't know anybody at all. So I couldn't help her there at all. Well I give Gary them ra that radio earphones, he's got it in upstairs in the box on top of all the other bloody boxes. Do you just keep collecting it? Well. Wouldn't bother. I banged my finger on Mm. Didn't half hurt. Thought bloody hell. It's a bus. A bus. A bus. My little'un said bus er our Cr Yeah Craigy were on about a bus, a bus and erm little'un said bus. Oh, she And then our Craigy said erm Home and Away nan Home and Away nan. Did he? Mm. Chuffing hell. Thought ooh bloody hell. His speech is getting a lot better. It's not clear though Kath. And he, he'd shout and I thought that were that Brian now. Where? I don't know. Can't see where they've gone. Oh it looks like him. What the crippled Brian? He's looking at your house. Crippled Brian? He's looking at your house. Or is he looking at the bus? He's looking at the bus. He walked up here, walked to your house, looked at the bus I don't know where'd he come from And do you know that's only trouble with these nets I'm gonna have a wee Bill's bloody worse, he stands there, he looks out the bloody window as much as any bugger. He has he's just parked car, walked up here, looked at bus and walked back again. Is it Brian? No, this one's driving a car. He were looking at that bus. He might be another one of them from the er from the council. Yeah, well it's, they've done nowt but look at it for last three month. I like his registration . Well he parked car there Mm. walked up there right to your house, eyed bus up and then walked back again. Yeah because what they did they they've done it a few a times though different people, look and see how far it is before it's a blind spot. Your Bill nearly hit it other week he were telling me. I dunno but like er say the d a driver's coming this way, he wants to see how far down the road it is before it's a blind spot again. And if they're from the council or whatever, or whoever does the roads or whatever they'll probably get in contact with him again. I should imagine they are from the council. That weren't too bad that one. Oh That was only a oner. It sounded better. have a real good do. Wouldn't mind if I could just bloody bring it up. And it won't? No it won't shift. Mm. Bloody come up one way or the other. Oh I could fancy a nice horse. I like leg. I don't want corned beef, that's, that, I don't want that. I like leg. You like leg? Yeah. Mm. I'm just debating whether to run in that kitchen and put that kettle on again, what do you reckon? Well I checked, you're alright, you're safe. That's alright then . I checked cupboard. I'm not going in cupboard everything's on top . I'm gonna have to go and get some more milk. Some miluk Yeah, I'll nip this afternoon and get some. I got strawberry or raspberry, I've got one of them. Normally I er put a banana and a strawberry together to give it a different taste. Oh yeah, pocket money. It's increased. What about last week's? Yeah I owe you a penny now. I know you do, that's next week's. Have to save a penny. Yeah that's next week. Yeah I put it in me pocket last night and I thought right I'll give her her two P and I bet your life she says what about other one. fifty pence the other week. gets a fifty pence but she don't like a fifty pence, she likes it all in change. So she's got loads. Yeah so she's got a lot of money. Anyway she left twelve pence on the floor and Gary says whose is this money, said you leave it there, it's for Enid's no nobody touch this chuffing twelve pence. She left twelve pence on floor and what? She left twelve pence on the floor and Bill put it in the cubby hole in the fireplace and Gary says whose is this money and Arthur was going to pick it up an'all, he says leave that he says that's for Enid's money. Her twelve P. Well there are. Twelve P. Mm. What's sh what's Billy do, take her to shop? He gives no Bill gives him fifty P, fifty P to, for whenever he sees her Yeah. and then he, he goes and buys her Smarties and crispies. That's what I says to Mm does he do that on the way out? Mm. Unless Bill's gone to the shop and he brings them for her. Ooh. So how far have we got now? Not far to go. Have to change tape. Ooh. It'll have more coughs and splutters and er traffic and everything on this side. Well never mind. Oh gawld. Well it's bound to be hot I've just made it. Mm. I'm alright doing it in pencil. You've gotta go over it all. Oh I don't know. I've gotta ring anyway, nine sixteen You've gotta d twenties thirties, forties. Is that the eldest is the forties? No Irene's the eldest the crafty bleeder. That's what I'm looking for, I'm hoping she's rubbed it out in pencil. She scribbled it out. She doesn't, she didn't mind taping or owt, she were pretending that Yeah. she said cos she were talking, she knew tape were still running and she were pretending to say that she didn't say I could do it but she did Mm. erm what she were arguing with me about is her age. Now she's sixty four Yeah. so she didn't want me to put sixty four down, but that's cheating Mm. cos if you know the age you're supposed to put the age down Mm. cos some people'll tell you and some people won't. So I put sixty four down so well I didn't put sixty four, I put thirty plus thirty four Yeah, sixty four. so that made sixty four. So she jumped up, grabbed the pencil and everything, she got a screwdriver first,I thought she were gonna stab me with screwdriver and she were looking for a pencil erm but luckily she's rubbed it out with thingy so You're putting it back in. I'm putting it back in. . So there. Now it's back again, it says thirty plus thirty four. She wanted me to put twenty one! Bloody hell. I says get lost, I says that's cheating. I'm sixteen I am. I put your age in. Forty seven. You cheeky cow! Forty seven, I'm not that old. It's a good job I put forty two then innit? Oh that's being generous. Have you already turned forty three? I were born in forty seven. You work it out. I'm twenty eight. I thought you were forty well it were your birthday in September weren't it? You're forty four this year? Am I? I dunno. I have to work out how old Bill is, Bill's Fifty, that's three year. Sixty, seventy, eighty, ninety, that's forty three forty four this year. Forty four then this year. If your birthday er I keep getting mixed up, it's your anniversary in February and it's your birthday in September. That's it. So I'll have to change yours to forty three, I put forty two. Well one year ain't gonna make no difference. I forgot you've already had your birthday. Mm. Oh I'll just put a plus sign at it. No, no pluses! That'll make me bloody double it! I can try hard can't I? Plus one then. Plus one. No I'll leave it at forty two. I'm, got you only had your birthday three month ago. Or somewhere around there. I'm thinking it's your birthday tomorrow, and it's not it's your anniversary tomorrow. Mm. September eighth. That's right. And February the sixth. Yeah. So you'll have a right good anniversary tomorrow cos nobody'll be in. bed. Yeah more than likely. I had a good anniversary. How do you work that out? Well I kept me own present, I stayed in bed half a day didn't I ? Mm. You swore on my machine. Did I say knickers or a worser word? No. It were goo that's good compared to some of them. I says to her when she were leaving it, I says to her there's people that swear and that. She says it don't matter. And there's Fs and there's Bs. Oh well they ain't got Fs and Bs on It's Linda that Fs and Bs'd. Steve swore. Er and there's somebody else somebody else swearing. If you rub out all the swear words you'll have n no bloody tapes left will you? Oh no it's not bad, I think it were er the first swear word I remember that went, went on it were wait a minute tape two, tape one ain't got none on that I know of. Oh. Tape two has tape three has. Tape two and tape three. And this is tape four int it? Mm. There's a lot of people won't let you do it. Won't they? No. I think they think you've got to have a conversation where you Yeah. talk about all what you talk about Yeah. but I don't, I stop it when you get there. Yeah. If they don't want No but that's personal innit? Yeah. So I don't. I'd've filled all twenty up now if they 'd 've all let me. Mm. But you can't be doing that can you? No. If they got five tapes off everybody by the Christ they'll have some listening to do won't they? Mm. Cos what's four tapes? When I've finished this one I'll have one side left ninety minutes a tape, that's an Three hours. hour and half, that's three, that's six hours. How do you work that out? Well I taped six hours. Ninety minutes a tape, that makes six. Oh yeah. Do you know what I've just noticed? What's that? Cough. Er Er watch that light, cough. Well you just said cough and it went off. I were watching it, every time you cough it starts flashing. Dinky! Steve keeps saying he were he says I'm having that tape recorder, I says you're not she's coming to take it back. I'm gonna tell her I'm having that tape recorder, I says you're not, she's coming back for it on Friday. It's only a cheapo anyway innit? I know, we've got that one. We've got four Walkmans in here like it, there's one at top there, I think that's same as this one. That one's a radio thingy, the one Steven's got's a, a radio thingy, this one isn't. But what he likes about it is microphone. What's that one? That's what my brother's son did to his father. bloody having them then is he? I paid fi fifteen bleeding quid for that and I sai cos this year, I didn't know he'd done this cos he sits it like that Mm. or clips it like that and you can't tell Mm. anyway he give it to his father and, well I'd already bought the other one I'd Mm cos I says if he looks after it I'll buy him one with radio on as well Yeah. so I just paid that one with radio. But I wish he'd stop nicking my bleeding torch, he's getting a swine for that. I only got it back, you know when I got it back? When he moved out. No when batteries are dead. Oh. I get all me torches back when battery's dead. I got one with a big chunky battery, it should've lasted about six month to a year Yeah. a right good'un it were, our Arthur give me torch and I had to buy a battery, I paid about three pound odd for this battery Tell you what I bet he had it under the blankets reading his books. He did. You've got it. Exactly. I wondered what that was? It's something clanging round in your washing machine. It'll be zip on his erm tracksuit. I found jacket, did I tell you? No. I got jacket and bottom. And some underwear. I can't stick that. I like that. I can't stick it. I like it if I do it with bacon and sausage. Ooh no. I got your Billy yesterday and I says oh do us a favour I says will you say owt, anything, just Yeah. tell us about breathing, no you're not getting my voice on that thing he says, I, I don't like hearing me voice and everything, and he threw it on the settee . Oh we had a right laugh about it . Couldn't stop laughing. Me and your mam did one this morning, I had about twenty minutes left on it and she helped me finish it off Yeah. so I could swap tapes over. Oh very good. Very good. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, what's yeah mean ? Yeah I don't know. Yeah. Yeah, yeah and all that, bloody hell. What have you been doing? Have you been to your mam's? Yeah I've been to me mam's, I've just had a cup of coffee and some fairy bun summat or other and ate these fairy buns. The crafty get, she didn't give me one. I've been over and she didn't give me one. Yet she comes in here and eats me cakes and biscuits. She had toast and tea this morning. Bloody hell. I stood in kitchen and I smothered this slice of toast and butter were just literally running off it and it were Running off it. all soggy and floppy Oh God. but we had to do that with her having a sore throat. Yeah. God. Mm. Shoes want polishing Kath. I know, Steven's nicked all polish and I had another one, you know one of them with sponges on? Yeah. And he snapped sponge off end. sat and got going like that Ooh. Couldn't stop laughing. What's J J doing anyway? Gone to her mam's? No she's going somewhere we went to Donny other day all money we've been getting like, when I first, she, when I first, before we got that giro for me Yeah. and J J, she got one week's money didn't she? Mm. So I went and I give her that That that you got. sixty two Yeah. right? Out of that other money Your seventy odd? Yeah. Then I got my seventy odd and she got another week's money and we just put it all together and we split it down the middle said right there's your half, there's mine Mm. erm she says er right do what you want with yours, I'll do what I want with mine. Anyhow I went out and I got this baby nest shawl thing Oh for baby? Yeah. Yeah. Thirty quid. You what! Thirty quid it's gorgeous, I looked at it she picked this one up, white, and I says don't like it Is that the one in I says tight get, only eight quid. is that the one in pushchair where their feet are all covered up and No it's a baby shawl thing, you know, where you carry, to come out of hospital in Oh yeah. Like w a qu quilt thing with a zip. You know what I mean? And it's got like a hood thing. And you can put them in pushch er pram, sorry Yeah. Yeah. Well I got one of them and it's pure silk, pale green and white and with all lacy I thought I like it. Are you keeping that for all of them now? Yeah. That's your special one? Yeah that cost us thirty quid. Good God. And er I says are you going out? She says what on? I says that. Says no that's your money, you buy whatever you want for baby, I'll buy she bought her one for eight quid and I says let's have a look at your one, yours are only eight quid I says, well how much were yours? I says thirty, she went you paid thirty quid for that I says yeah. She says you Ah. Bloody hell. So anyway I went to Index cos I want I want and a watch I'm looking for a watch cos, and I thought oh aye I come to rings, I thought well I owe her a ring so I thought oh better half eternity ring they're cheap anyway. yeah. And anyhow twenty nine ninety nine so I bought her one. I says here don't say I don't buy you nowt. Says it's me birthday on twenty seventh of February, I want a watch. Anyway she says which one do you want? I says that one, sixty four er er pound something Bloody hell! and, oh it's gorgeous, great big, you know Did she get it? No she's buying it for me birthday. She'll have no money by then. So, oh she will, she's got some in When's baby due? April Ah. April, May time. Shame you couldn't have it for your birthday. I know. I'm having me watch for me birthday anyway so You're having your watch? Yeah, for me birthday. And er Oh. says that one should last me just over a year, that one should. Well she bought me one last year Sixty pound for a year! Yeah. Bloody hell! And the one cost me twenty quid and that lasted me just over a year. I was Stephen's last him about six week. If it starts going funny he takes the back off to have a look, no matter how much you pay for it. Mm. He dismantles the lot, he's stupid. I've got more straps and bloody cordless watches, everything, all over the place. Yeah. Cos Wayne give him one, he paid seventy quid for it and he dismantled that one in three week of having it. Tt yeah it's in Index. Have you got Index book? Yeah it's in cupboard. I'll show you it. I'll show that ring I got her as well. in cupboard. My beloved's been in this cupboard and messed it all up. I've got Sarah coming down this afternoon You have? Yeah she slept in for work again. Ha! She's gonna get sack her by time she's finished. Mm well She's more at home than she is at work. that one. Did I tell you she got her inheritance? Inheritance? Yeah she twenty one other week and And how much she get? Four and a half thousand. Four and a half thousand pounds! Did she? Yeah. She's chuffed to death. Only thing she weren't chuffed about is she couldn't cash cheque, it had to go all through bank and everything. Yeah it would have done, yeah. Thirty three. Mm that's the one I got her. That one. Oh you got her mine. I were looking at that one Yeah, thirty three quid. so I can take that middle'un off and get it to match. Yeah. That's what I were gonna do. Yeah I got her that one, over there. It's nice that. Thirty Thirty three quid. Er twenty nine ninety nine. Twenty nine ninety nine. Yeah. Is it real gold? Yeah it's real gold and diamond. Nine carat gold. Diamond set. Good God. Yeah diamonds and sapphires it, it's got half, half er Half eternity. eternity, that's right. One two three three of one, four of other. Yeah. Oh it's nice that. And then I thought well it's, it's got, it says diamonds and sapphire, I thought they can't be real but it says, you know If it says diamonds they're real. Yeah they're real. It's only cos they're chips Yeah. diamond chips, they'll be little tiny ones Yeah. smack in middle are they? Yeah they are. Yeah I thought they are er smaller than that. Ah there they are, there. Yeah. That's a diamond and sapphire just a bit bigger than yours Yeah. that one. Aha. It's nice that, But it looks nice, yeah, I bought her that one. There it is, I think that's it, twenty six, twenty six, twenty six, twenty si yeah that's it. See that? Yeah. That's erm erm er er Sarah's engagement ring. Sar Sarah's engagement ring? Yeah she got engaged. Twenty six. Couldn't remember if I told you. Thirty four quid. Mm very nice. Cos I says thirty odd quid, she says yeah they're on special Mm. cos they're knock-down prices aren't they? Yeah. And er she says that she didn't want summat expensive when she could be buying summat for kitchen, you know, like a microwave or summat like that. Yeah. So I don't blame her really. I've buggered me alarm clock up. I got mad because How did you do that? it wouldn't set so I hit it and you know buttons? I went like that on top and I said bloody work! And all buttons went inside. Oh! Steve looked at it, he said I think you'd better go to shop and buy yoursen a new one. I don't know. Sometimes they've got some in that book, they're in them leaflets. I would have picked that one as well Like Steve's. That one? Yeah. Yeah I that one as well. There were that one and this other one but I like this other one because it's like that. there. It might be on one of them leaflet things, you know they make the leaflets? Yeah. Not in there. Might be on that. But they've got some nice things in there. Yeah they have. I were looking for an alarm clock, I thought I better have a new one else I'm gonna start sleeping in for work. Mm. But they're usually cheap in here but I want one that Yeah. plays music, I can't hear an alarm clock. It's got to Be a radio alarm clock? Yeah. Yeah. Otherwise I can't get up. Cos Steve always had to wake me up for work yeah. and er then he decided to buy me a radio alarm for Christmas. Mhm. And it worked, I've heard it ever since till I hit it. Haven't you done owt like this, things like this? Can't you have them sort of thing? Oh aye yeah we've got a toaster and one of them Bra er Breville toaster things and ? Er I got rid of that thing. Did you? Yeah. I've got me microwave now though. Oh cos ain't you got one summat like this? Eh? Didn't she have a two ring burner or summat like that? Yeah she had a two ring cooker thing, yeah. She got rid of it? Yeah. Ah. I thought you weren't supposed to have one of them? You're not. But you can have microwave? You can have microwave, yeah. Can't you have a deep fat fryer and things like that? No it's a fire hazard. Oh. Oh that's not a fire hazard, you can have it? Yeah. Yeah. They're cheaper in here I know. Mm. My It's with condensation of fat and everything er with them just decorating all rooms and that it's Ah. so you can have microwaves, toaster, kettle Yeah. and things like that and that's about it. Yeah. Oh I were just wondering. Can't find clocks. Can't find bugger all. Oh so they'll be round here somewhere then won't they? Yeah, radio alarm clocks. I just wondered how much they are cos that one that er just disintegrated on me, I got it from Britannia. It's rubbish. It's never worked proper Yeah. it sort of played about two or three minutes of music and then it went crrrkkkkkk for a few minutes, that's why I kept hitting it. And then music, if you hit it, music come back on. Oh well Stupid it were. Have to have a proper look later, I can't find it. Ah found one. I says I can't find them, I found them. Here we are what's that one, number four, number four digital clock, mains operated, fast time, alarm set, snooze feature, battery back-up four ninety five. Not bad That's not bad at all that. No. Seven ninety nine. Six ninety five. Six ninety five and a six fifty. Very good. Look. Yeah. Yeah. I might have that little'un. Yeah. You can stick batteries in it, I prefer them with batteries. At least if battery goes out You mean if electric goes off? Yeah if electric goes off. Mm. That was supposed to be battery back-up system, the one I threw on floor. Cos I dismantled it and threw it on floor . Tt I got right mad. It's a good job I've got two. So I shall have one of them I think. Yeah. Yeah. There you are. I'll turn this tape off now, let you listen to yoursen. Oh God I'll have this one Ted. Looks a good'un, futuristic one Mm. Steve likes them. You buying this duck? Yeah please. I've got, I, I had a rough idea of what he'd got and what he hadn't now. Ah. I'm getting there. I'm doing well so far, I haven't fetched one back have I? No. That must be good. It is. See a few of them, you know right at beginning where it shows you preface? Yeah. That's where it's jumped, not on the film itself. Yeah you know why, it's, it's because of cont continuous rewinding. You always get damage at front of tape. Best thing to do is just cut it off. Ah we will do later cos Well or yeah. he uses cuts it all off and gets rid of it. Yeah it's erm any damage on tape, nine out of ten times i is the first foot it's because when they wind them back i it, it's a jag tight innit? complete jag all the time when they wind them back. Yeah. Aye well that doesn't bother us. No. Ta-ta. Ta-ta love. shorts and so I thought right, clean or mucky, you're in the wash. So , thought I'll get them all washed and put back in bedroom before he notices they're missing. So that's what I did. Now what we're on about yeah as I were on about, that er what I do is, with days like this, cos you can never guarantee if they're gonna be dry, wet or what, so I watch to see if it rains, if it don't they're virtually dry when I fetch them in. So that's what I've been doing. I don't know whose T-shirt's whose. That one's mine. So that's what I've been doing. I fetch them all in, stick them on clothes horse, they're all round fire while I'm on lollipop and then nip to shop and when I come in within half an hour they were bone dry. Easy. That's one way to do it innit? Fetch them in at half past three. But if they're dry I just fold them up and put them away anyway. I'm just transferring socks. So, how come you managed to sleep in again? I didn't sleep in, I were up . You were up? breakfast and cup of coffee, I just didn't You didn't? I didn't fe I felt wide awake but I was tired Yeah. So you thought nah I'm not going, I'm stopping at home. Third time that's been in the washer since Christmas day. And that's only cos last twice I've thinked of it. Where is his lordship anyway? I haven't the foggiest idea. I don't keep track any more, I let him get on with it. It's easier. How come Dave's home? What? How come Dave's home? I thought you says he were working on them mate's car? Which one? Mate's car. Oh he's finished doing, they've finished doing that one. Oh. Yeah when did they finish that? Monday I think, he's got ano the bloke's been sacked an'all, he's got another one to do. Ah well that's not too bad. It keeps him from getting bored. Dunnit? Yeah. Socks. Oh I'm doing well, I've got one odd sock so far. Brill. Stephen Oh he's gone back to J J. I told you he went back to J J did I? Yeah. he'll make his chuffing mind up. Oh aye it don't bother me. Hey? I give up on them. I give up on them all. I sent him to doctors. He come in, his eye's right out here, and it's streaming with water and he says he's been to hospital, they dripped some water in it, washed it out must be mine that, what do you reckon? It is. Oh. I can never tell cos he pinches them all. If it's a T- shirt it's his. So he says. Anyway it was streaming with water so er I told him to get down to doctors, he asked if, that's why I said oh Stephen's been back. It must've been while I was stood up there. And he's er what you called it? Er went to nurse so I lent him bike. It's a bit dangerous driving round if his eyes are like that. Well mine's got a visor and everything on it. One of them comes right down there. So Just airing these off. That's what they're like when I fetch them in,it's not bad is it? No they're dry. So I just air them off. What you been doing all day? On knock? No. Not a thing? Not gobbing, nowt? No. You're having a right lazy day? Mm. Bet you get fed up with that job don't you? Yeah, I don't like it Oh It were nice Monday cos she come round hygiene on time Yeah. she goes, she started being a cocky little bitch, she's only fucking nineteen Yeah. she started being a cocky little bitch, and she wears make- up, really plasters it on Oh yeah. and she started gobbing, I says oh go and take your fucking make-up off you tart. So she took me off hygiene. Stupid cow, she Is she a supervisor a chargehand or summat? Chargehand. At that age? And do I give a fuck? No. No I bet you don't, I wouldn't neither. Cor. I quite liked it where I were yesterday cos he were alright, him. Are you in mucky end or other end? In between. In between? Well that says a right lot that does . All I know there's a mucky end and another end. Aye Oh well that's not bad. I just needed a day's recovery. They'll say every time she's on days she doesn't turn up. I rang up. Have you rung up already? Yeah. Can't say owt if you Tt. What you tell them? Slept in? Told them I had migraine. Tt. I'm running out of fucking excuses now, I'm going to write book out. You'll have to remember what you've used. Your grandma's dead four times. Poor old grandma . I'm a rotten bastard aren't I? No. Everybody does it. You're not on your own. I tell you summat I'm getting fed up because every time I don't feel absolutely great, and I go over there and say will you stand in for me, I don't feel well, I don't want to. It was an arrangement we had I, I wouldn't phone in cos you have to wait three weeks for your wages if I phone in. So I says I wouldn't phone in, I'd let you know and you could do it and I'll pay you myself, I don't mind, you know, losing a day's pay. I said I'll pay you mysen. So er she says yeah fair enough then she won't have to wait three week, cos it's only me that's losing, not her. Yeah. Anyway she's been going out on and off for quite a while now. So I thought well I don't have to wait three weeks for mine so next time I don't feel great I'm gonna call in and take a couple of days off. According to them I have had four weeks off in ten years. That's it. That's all I've had off. No I'm lying, four weeks in nine years. Why's she looking at excuses not to do it like? Er apparently they phone her up or summat and ask her if she'll go and stand in for other people and she turned round and says if I can't have this school I'm not doing any. That's what she's been doing. So they've not, yeah, they've not phoned her up for God knows how long. Irene's been doing it. Cos Irene says give me a ring I says no, I says that's it, I said I've already made the arrangement once and it backfired I says so I'm not doing it no more. I says when I'm not feeling well or slept in I says I'm gonna phone police station, I'm gonna go from there, see what they say. Let them find somebody. I says I'm not messing about no more. Do you know everybody's had flu and God knows what and I can't catch it. I thought I had it again other day, I felt bleeding awful. I had that at Christmas which made me bad all over Christmas right ? And everybody , I says marvellous cos I can have some time off,, it's not fair. I'm not having that, that's cheating. If they can have some time off I can have some time off, fair's fair. It dries right quick, it just takes that chill off Kath you've got alarms all over the bleeding place, what are you up to? I ain't done nowt. You div! Look have you seen this one? No you're on front of cover. No she hasn't seen that one. Well I don't believe you! Oh alright then. It must be on back. I've seen her ugly face somewhere, I don't know where. It might be on that one you had upstairs. Did you do your mum's car then? Yeah. What were wrong with it? Nowt. I was just checking it over before test. Eh? Just checking it over for test. Just testing it over for test. Are you deaf? Yeah. No. We try hard. I hear you're going on holiday with your mum and dad? Am I? Get rid of Do you know summat? What? I just wish you'd talk instead of just sitting there sometimes. I'm reading. He never talks when he reads. What? Talk to me. Yeah. Do you know summat? Yeah. I could slap you sometimes. You do anyway. Talk to me! Why are you going on holiday and leaving Sarah behind? Cos it's Sarah's idea that. How come it's her idea? She wants a bit of peace and quiet. So you've got to go? Yeah. Tt. I know. Isn't it awful? Aye she get rid of me tomorrow cos she's going to work she says. If she gets up . She got up this morning. Oh aye you said you did didn't you? But she said I hate that place, I'm not going. And stayed in bed. I made her a cup of coffee, she went to sleep. Hey now for the past three mornings I've got up out of bed, I've made you a cup of tea every morning and breakfast on a tray, so don't you come complaining to me. Only cos you beat me up. Pardon? Only cos you beat me up. What! It's me who's brought your breakfast to you. Yeah. But if I'd've, if I'd've been up I'd've got it. You don't bloody well have to. It takes me half an hour to kick you out of bed. Well Answer that one. Do you want a cig? Don't give him one, he smokes too much. You smoke too much, do you want a cig? Go on then. I'll be kind to you. Why are you picking on me? We're not picking on you we're just trying to get a conversation going here like, but it's very hard when you just sit there and say nothing. No ta Oops. Always picking on me, always beating me up. Oh God. No it's alright I'll go if you want. I quite enjoy it. You're a sado-masochist you. You know I love you, what more do you want? Breakfast in bed every day. Have you got any more car jobs to do? Not yet. Erm back brakes but Well if it don't stop you How old's your mum and dad? He don't know neither. They're in their forties anyway I think. That's what I said Well we come to that conclusion didn't we? Me dad's think me dad's forty seven. Me mum's about forty three, forty four. Oh. I thought your mum were older than your dad. No. Your mum looks worn and knackered. She always does. Ah but you know what she does though? You tell her what she does when she works nights, next day when she comes home in morning. Well it just depends if it's market day she goes to market stays up till two or three in afternoon and then goes to sleep for six about six hours. What time does she go to work? Half nine at night. Bloody hell that's a long day. I know. It's gonna er be even worse when she's going, working in Thorne. She's moving to Thorne or summat. Ooh how's she gonna get there? Got a car. Can she drive? Yeah. Oh I thought she went on bus. No. Does your dad drive? Mm, everyone up wall. Er yo your car she's using then? No she's got her own. Oh you've got a car and a pick-up? And a bike. And a bike? Yeah. Well me dad's on about getting rid of car for summat else but I don't know yet. He hasn't made his mind up. Me mum's on about getting rid of hers and getting a Volvo. I've told her to get an Astra they're better. A little'un? Yeah. Same as mine but a new car. No. with the same front but it's this long. She don't want a big'un does she? No she doesn't like driving big cars. Why's she want a Volvo, it's ginormous! Oh you can get small ones. Can you? Yeah. Oh. nowt to do with him,Metro. Why? Mm? Why? Cos er they rot. Tommy's next door a little red light keeps coming on. A little red light. A little red light as though he's got no oil but he has. It might be his erm tt oil filter's blocked or summat. Mm. They're prone for that,little red lights. Oil filter Mine is an'all. Have you got a little red light ? Yeah, it keeps flickering on and off. On me dad's van, that's a pick-up, when she's Yeah. been running for about half an hour or so, you know when you come to a junction flicking on and off. I thought you were a mechanic. I am. Well get rid of your little red light then! I've done it now . It'd cost a lot of money. What, to get rid of a little red light? Yeah. Well I would do, I'd walk back for , me. I'd say it's not on now. Well me dad's needs an oil pump on it. Er and he won't pay out for it cos he's a bit tight. Er there's mine needs a few bits and bobs I can't do it though cos I haven't got enough money. Me mum's me mum's is alright, it's just me dad g keeps saying oh there's these noises and I'll, and I'll go in it and there's no noise. But it's His ears are getting old. I know. He's supposed to be getting a hearing aid or summat. Soon as soon as he starts talking about cars yap yap yap yap yap yap he doesn't stop. Don't worry love it's nice to hear you talk, you carry on. You're picking on me. I'm not picking on you. You're picking on me again. Picking on me again. You carry on. No I'll be quiet now. quiet. You come to see me and sit there and say nowt. What you been doing? Nowt. help me! Oh dear . Where you been? At home. Well you've got a right interesting life, you've got . I know. Cars, home and done owt. Mm. Is that it? Full stop? Just about. Should go pub. I can't afford it. Should save up and take Sarah on holiday. I've gotta get a job first. Thought you'd got one. Sort of. Sort of. I keep asking them but they're not ready yet. I was just telling Sarah Steve's written for another one Is it? It's a bit nearer then int it? Sugar. Sugar plants Sugar Oh fixing machinery? Yeah. be alright . Doing owt else but that he wouldn't know what he's doing. Stick owt electrical in his hand and he's cracked it. Our erm Michelle come round Tracey's sister Yeah? erm with an application form Where is it? It's in house. Oh er. ? Yeah? She come round this afternoon. Is that for you or for her? It's for her. Well that's Optic Fibres. Who else is oh she's getting Bovril one an'all. Is she? Yeah. Who's Bovril? Potty Avril,sh she's gone in head. Oh I thought you said Bovril . I did, we all call her Bovril. Oh, where's Optic Fibres. Shaw Lane industrial estate. It's just behind that Is it? Oh my God! Who'd have believed, I were at other night right? It were getting on late and I says and er were there, oh we'll walk you home Sarah said alright then says come on let's go through woods. Well anyway it gets half way through this wood I couldn't see couple of yards in front of me When it were foggy? they starts running off! Well I crapped mesen me, I started running back towards road and they're going Sarah, Sarah come back. So I carried on walking and they start going through this bleeding wood, well they had me climbing over three fence things, all like them metal you know like them metal fences at wood? Climbing over them, I nearly cut mesen in half. park. Oh yeah we walked past park cos he asked me if I wanted to go on swings and it led up to his back gate, well, you've never seen me put a sigh of relief on me face, I went Is it a longer or a shorter? It's shorter but it's scarier. Scarier? They're on about putting a road round back of there. Around back of the gardens. I tell you something if they put lights up down here I reckon it'd make it even more scary though you know, I don't know why. Scary. I hate that road. Just think there could be dead bodies in You know what it made me think of? What? Parts of flipping Evil Dead, and they're going ooh there's a house Oh I couldn't walk through a wood on a night time. No way. We found a tramp in wood once. Dead? No. He were under these covers and erm Well you were then . we walked up we, we thought oh what's this? Lifted cover and there were this fella underneath. And erm we ran off, I were, we were about sixteen or seventeen and er we kept chucking bricks at him. He, he was going piss off, piss off. So you know Dallas? He chucked this bit of glass, it cut him so we ran over here. And erm I don't know who it was, he set fire to his quilt so he come running after us. He'd, he'd escaped from one of the prisons. Eh? He'd escaped from one of the prisons . Well no wonder you were chucking bricks at him, I would have done an'all . We didn't know until we got out to woods. Didn't you think he were dead? No. When you first found him? I don't know. He had this suitcase. threw it. It stunk. Er he'd escaped from Leeds or summat. What did he do? I don't know. You'd've been alright if it'd've been a mass murderer slept for years . You never that one again. It were right funny though. I bet he didn't think it was. If you'd've known then what you knew after you wouldn't've thought it were funny,you'd've not been chucking nowt you'd've been off . Bloody hell. Well we come out of woods and someone had phoned police up or something escaped from Leeds. Did they get him? He should of bloody stayed We're going soon cos I'm starving. Aren't you hungry? A little bit. A little bit, I bet you're starving really aren't you? Yeah. He tells fibs an'all . Well a little bit means a lot. Tell me darling, what have you really had to eat today while I've been away? While you've been away? Had erm a chopped piece of raw carrot that's about it. Are you on a diet? No. wait for Cos I always wait for him if I have a meal that's why. I'm ever so considerate. Did I tell you Steve's car conked out last week, again? The Capri? Yeah. Points. No. Points? Yeah he had to put new points in. Last night he had to put new plugs in, they were brand new before he crashed it weren't they? It's probably cos Could've been. They refused point blank and he had to take it to another garage. Did you send another bill? Yeah. No i I phoned insurance up and told them what they'd said, cos I got Maggie to phone, it were Maggie that said, they told Maggie that they were gonna put a second hand wheel on and everything instead of a brand new one so she told insurance about it . They went mad, they told us that we'd got to take it to National Tyres, took it there, twenty three pound fifty it cost us. What's that for, tracking? Tracking and balancing it, none of it were done. They had to do the lot so they give us an invoice, we took it in to insurance and they're gonna write a cheque, deduct it off that thing Mm. and send us the cheque back. Cos they should've done it. Send you cheque back? Yeah. That twenty three pound odd what we had to pay, they said we should pay nothing. Oh you're gonna pay Anything to do with the crash, we don't pay nothing for it. So everything that we've got to pay out we invoice them Mm. they deduct it and send us it. And that's what we've been doing. Oh. So it weren't bad, especially the money back. pulling their hair out once they get cheque. You what? They'll be pulling their hair out once It's their own fault. Yeah. They should've made arrangements, we phoned up, asked them if we could take it in. That were on Tuesday we phoned up. What's the matter ? You going on holiday? No. I wish I were. Will you take me then will you? Eh what? Took you to Scotland didn't I? Yeah. That were last year, we're in nineteen ninety two now. Where you going? Greece? Don't know yet. We were on about going weren't we? Yeah. Go camping. Haven't got a tent. There's a trailer tent in garden. Camping with you! You've gotta be joking. There's a bed each. You can either have a double bed or you can have a double bed each. We'll have a double bed each. Yeah. Tell me then. What? I said shall we tell you, I never said we were gonna tell you. Oh No leave him in suspense. No. Shall we? No. Sod him. Do you wanna have a listen then? Mm. Go on then. Here listen to this Dave Apple pie? Yeah. Yeah, it figures. I says bollocks John. pie. writing letters upsetting today. What, that new one? Yeah. No? No. Not yet, washing first. Well go like that then. Ah I just wondered. They want washing first. I can see that, they're dirty. Oh, do you wear them or summat? Yeah. Ah went in to where John were working cos I wanted to borrow a spanner, he said I could just murder a cig and his, his mate said ah I could as well. buy your own bastard. He said I could murder a roll up I said could you? I said buy them. we don't buy them for him. John looked at me I says I says I've got enough bloody debt without keeping pair of you twats in cigs. John just laughed. He says you meant it didn't you? I says yes I did, I am not supplying cigs to him. He says why? I said I don't get them bloody back If he can't afford to smoke he should not smoke. If he can afford to smoke he should buy them himself. Shouldn't he? Mm. See this time, weren't I clever? Yes. I thought no I thought I'll reason I've got a big box I thought two weeks, cracked it. Ah . Let me just go and get me erm bleeding thieving little twat. He knows it's me s snap for work and if there's none left I go with bloody out. Well Did you give him his book? Yeah. He's got it? Yeah. Alright how much was it? One pound twenty one pound I were supposed to tape twenty. I want eighty pence off him. No you want it off me, that's the whole idea of it. No. Yes! Er no. That's the whole idea these for me. These were one pound five Whoo expensive Five, six I want er eighty pence. How much were ? Thirty I think. That big'un? Oh I don't know sixty, seventy, I don't know. I want one pound twenty off him. They're cheap I don't care it's me snap, that's what annoys me. There's all that. I know. It might boil Oh it's boiled. Sorry I'm miles away. Got Dave. Eh? Got Dave. Oh what's he say? No he didn't know cos Sarah says not to tell him till we've done it. Why, has he been down? He come to pick Sarah up. Has she been down? She didn't go to work today. The idle sod. Oh I'll tell you later why she's not been sort of I'll tell you in a bit. Yeah er I told her all about it so she did some for me right? And she says to get Dave when he comes in, I says yeah but I'm supposed to tell people about it. She says no don't tell him she says you told me, just do it she says and then when we stop it you can tell him. Well he were killing his sides a laughing. We were talking about cars and holidays and his mum and dad, ta, and I ke I says to Sarah shall I tell him? Give me that plate. Erm I'll have these. Yeah. Well I thought you'd've ate them before now. I thought I'd've got them for me bleeding snap. Won't fit! What do you mean don't fit? What's up with plastic bag like? Oh I never think of putting them in that. Anyway it takes more. Eh? More stuff to put in. Oh! What, what sorry? Dirty sod. What about cheese and tomato? Alright. Oh that. cutting knife Did you tell him about car? About conking out? Mini. Oh no. Why not? Cos we were messing about. What he say when he er heard himself? He were killing his sides a laughing. Cos I, I says to Sarah go on we'll have a listen to it and we stopped it anyway I says I'll t I'll take it off if you want, he says no leave it. He says you crafty pair of sods he says, Sarah knew all about that didn't she? I says yeah I says she told me to do it, I says and then let you listen to it. He says nah leave it, he says any case he says this thing you get he says now you've got my voice he says do I get some of it ? I says no you don't. No I get t tape recorder. You and that tape recorder! I get the Walkman, I get the Walkman, I do. You can't have it. Why not? Cos it don't belong to us. No but I'll, if I say it on every tape she might get the hint. It don't belong to her. Dunnit? No does it heck. It belongs to that company, that Alright, when company hear it I might get the bleeding tape they're not frigging hard up. All you want that tape for is cos it's got a microphone innit? Yours ain't got a microphone. Mine int as good. I thought yours were same make. Ah that's got a radio on It's got a radio on, yeah. Yeah. I'll buy you one. It depends where I can spend voucher, I'll buy you one with voucher, how's that? So I'm not having that one then? No it's not yours, it's got to go back on Friday. How many have you done? This is five. Out of what, ten? Twenty. Chuffing hell fire. Well if they say no it's no that's it, there's not a lot you can do about it. Oh well I know that. Once they say no that's it. There's only you know people that come like and that that I have never said no to. They were on once. Apart from that Are you hungry? Bloody hell. No I'm just doing this jam sarnie to er make things happy. Alright? You daft sod , course I'm bleeding hungry. Well your tea's nearly ready, that's why I asked you. What, what mood you in? Me? Alright. Been shop and I treat you to summat. Ooh I just thought of summat you What? What have I done now? done four hundred and sixty nine on that tank of petrol. That's short. What? It was five hundred and odd last time. Bloody hell. It were. No it weren't. It were. Where's that envelope? It says five hundred and twenty summat on it. Yeah. It weren't thirty odd quid don't go in. It does when I chuffing empty it and fill it up. I've got your petrol money for tomorrow anyhow. Cos you've got enough for today, tomorrow haven't you? I've got enough for tomorrow to get me there, get me home Yeah but then straight to garage. it's Thursday tomorrow. I don't finish early do I? Oh. Oh I'll have to give you a fiver. Stick a fiver in. I'll give you your pocket money and then you stick a fiver in and I'll give it you back. I said then I'll give you it back. Yeah. Mm? And then we'll fiddle instead. Where you going? Put these in ro I'm coming back, don't worry. Wouldn't pissing leave you. What you doing? I see Maggie's been. Why? Went out to empty my bloody ashtray. Urgh. that's mine. I've been doing that. Well why ain't you emptied the chuff? Mm no I couldn't be bothered. I usually empty them but I've been busy. Thank you for posting me letter. You're welcome. I'll do it again tomorrow for you. Yeah! I've got a letter to do and I keep forgetting to do it. What's that? It's just to that medical thing to say I don't want to. It's not what I thought. It's not what I thought at all. No it's a It's not I thought it were one of them, you know when you go in hospital and you're off work and that? Mm yeah. I thought it were one of them, watch what you're doing, I thought it were one of them but it's not. It's not. Snot snot. No. No it's not Oh aye so dropping it. Yeah. I've had a go, I've had a new mate today. Ooh you've got one for yourself? Yeah, foreman. Oh. ask him you got owt to do? Yeah I've got plenty Do you want all this? Yeah get it whacked on. see Sarah? don't forget to switch it off. I won't. Ooh he's got all his fucking life that bugger, that's what this is. I know. Who's he supposed to know like. He's erm Clapton. So how come you were working with gaffer? Cos I wanted three hands and I only had two. Ain't you been outside like today then? Yeah, all outside. All of you? Flipping hell. Well not all of them but There were an accident at top road today. Anybody hurt? Yeah. Who? A young lass. She were, she'd got a scooter bit similar to mine and she er were coming home and it were one of women from school actually one of women from school. She picked four kids up and you know right at end here where it's that criss-cross? Well whether she never saw her indicating or owt but she pulled straight out at end straight into her crushed her legs. Bike's perfect, nowt wrong with bike. But lass is right bad. They had a motorcycle cop er one of them Range Rover thingies erm an ambulance and somebody went and fetched a man. She only lives in Hatfield. And her that, I were watching, that hit her you'll never guess what she did? What? She must've left her statement, walked over to her car and she checked the car before she checked the four kids. I were watching her do it. I thought bloody hell you'd check your kids first. Maggie only stopped about an hour this morning, she's not feeling well. She hasn't got rid of it. Bill told her to stop in bed this morning and he'd w he'd get her up when he come in at two o'clock this afternoon. She wouldn't. Cos you get pissed off of Only she's coughing that bad it's keeping him awake. And that's why he says to sleep and then if she couldn't get to sleep she could like sit up tonight so he could get some sleep instead. What I want to know Fair enough not stop in bed but er stay in house, light fire and stay in that little twat getting up in middle of night. I know that by clock in kitchen. It uses about twenty pence during night, not forty. It's not Eric Clapton is it? I don't know who it is. Doesn't look like him. I've seen him before. I've heard name before but I don't know who he is cos I weren't watching it, I were upstairs, I've only just come Hey guess what! What? I got to bottom of washing basket. And he can't spoil it. Why? Have you in his bedroom? Yeah. I went in and got it all. Got me torch and me pen. You got them? Mhm. Were where it? Same place it usually is Where? Cadet uniform. Anyway I were, I were talking to that lady and er she were on about you, and she says about putting your name How? cos you're never here. Anyway I get a twenty five pound voucher for doing it. Ooh. Mm. But what I thought if you're going to leave and you're going in bed and breakfast, I've got that sandwich toaster, cos get your breakfast, bed and breakfast right? Mm. And then you get your dinner at college Mm. and then I thought well er tt if you get this sandwich toaster I'll give you sandwich toaster, you can get egg, beans and all, bacon and all this crap and er we'll go from there. Mm. Mm. Mm. Mm. Mm. oh shit . Go in cupboard and get me another. Oh Yeah. Oh look at that, I'm all wet. This is lovely ain't it? Oh They're full, they're empty. I know cos I looked. I know but you've not been thinking of me. Pardon? You've not been thinking. Can't say Ah. all like me Walkman Where is it? In your bag with your kit! It is in me bag and with me kit now. I know I've seen it. Where did you get it from? On top of wardrobe. You're a thieving little get. My Walkman he's got Braddock Do you know why? Hey whoa whoa! I paid you four ninety nine for Braddock Yeah but he took Yeah but I'm honest. Yeah but what he did take my Walkman for though? Because you went in our bedroom and nicked my torch, my torch which is on that table. No I took that And do you know what you did? You nicked my bestest pen and nacked it. It int your pen now I'll have you know. I'll have you know I've got a full frigging set of it. I'll have you know I'll have me Parker back. What Parker? That's the bestest pen. What Parker? I remember you getting a pen and saying oh mam the ink's run out on it. You can have it. And nicked my pen. Yeah hang on hang on, hang on, hang on no no no, I have every Parker in this house except for two sets. One's yours Well that one and one's me dad's. And every other The blue one's your dad's, the black one's mine. and every other Parker in this house belongs to me. Fair enough. Well why do they keep disappearing then? Why do you nick mine. Why do you nick my black one? And nack it. It's not nacked it's just that I've lost seven pens like. They're in garage, I've seen them. And they keep going. Aye and they keep going. And like er what is it,victor book were nineteen ninet It's not victor book there, you can pick it up any time you want. nineteen ninety two. Are you gonna stop home or what? And what, see it's gonna be the same as it is now never in. Ten o'clock, eleven o'clock, do what you want. Can't you space it? Space what? Aren't your girlfriends good enough for that? College ten o'clock, eleven o'clock forget it. Oh aye college until eleven o'clock at night, nah! Mm mm mm mm mm mm It finishes about You're at college right? Aye. At sixteen years old don't you think ten o'clock is good enough? No. Why? Cos I've got a life to lead and my life don't start till about ten . Don't when you think you're seventeen, eleven o'clock good enough? You're seventeen in nine weeks' time. It isn't nine weeks. It's only February. Your birthday's in May third week in May. Oh that reminds me, remind, Aunty Margaret, it's her anniversary. March, April, May Eight and a half weeks. And it's not good enough for Eight ten o'clock to eleven. eight and a half weeks, two month How old's your girlfriend? Thirteen. Don't you think she's supposed to be in cos if she were my daughter I'd slap her fucking daft. She is in. In what? What? In house, in bungalow I mean. At what time? When she gets there . About half nine, quarter to ten. Yeah! What ? She catches quarter nine bus to get there for half nine, quarter to ten. Well you could be home for ten. Get out of it! If her dad's erm a cop well I don't give a monkey's shit, I work for the cops. He is a cop and he's always on sick . He's not much of a cop then is he? He is he cops a right lot Did I tell you about accident at top tonight? No, he cops a right lot of money. Where do they live? No I'm not having that. What? I'm not having that. I'll smack her me bleeding sen. You won't touch her . I chuffing will. You can touch Emma, No or Sarah. Who? Or Sarah . Sarah's gone hasn't she? Sarah's the ex girlfriend, I don't know where she is. What happened to all these girlfriends and this person that had phoned up on Stephen phoned up er it's Wednesday right, and Stephen phoned up Tuesday and twenty five to eleven and says can I talk to Stephen, says hang on a minute who is it? He says Steve I says oh eh up cock are you alright? Right? Aye anyway I says seeing's it's you I'll go and tell him and I come upstairs so I come downstairs and I says he's asleep, he says the idle get. Well it's he's, he gets up at six in the morning and I get up at about five o'clock and I go to bed later than him anyway normally, so it must be Yeah. I'm still trying to find the conclusion, are you leaving or aren't you? I can get you to stay you know. How? I can. Go on then. It's not funny. Well how can you get me to stay? Do you want to? Look how can you get me to stay? You've got two weeks left haven't you? Yeah. Do you want to stay or don't you? That's what I wanna know. What you got in your hand, you? Batteries! You've nicked the fucking batteries you. And two tapes. Do you know all these five tapes and everything, I never swore on these till I talk to you. I forgot the tapes. You nicked the friggers. I'll tell that lady when she come. She's two tapes short cos me son nicked them, he walked off with them. What you on about? I could've walked off with one to eleven there. You just may do before she comes for them. Nah. Don't think Oh we're being kind, you're not, you nicked two and pissed off with them. Don't need that many tapes. But I want me Dirty Dancing tape back. And I'm gonna get Top Gun You see I can't understand you What? cos you say you love me do you or don't you? Yeah. Yeah . What's to laugh at, I've got a deep voice? Yeah . Do you or don't you? That's what yobbos say,yeah No don't mess. Are you stopping here or not? You see I say are you stopping here or are you not, does your dad? Does he heck. He will do. He will do. If I know. Costs a fortune in bus fares from town you know. We could move. What,into town ? We could move. Into town? Nah. Oh don't be silly Steven. Do you know it costs thirty five pence from Bentley into town I know. and thirty five pence from Bessacarr into town. What's Bessacarr got to do with it? It costs us at least eighty five pence and we don't live as far, well we don't don't live that far. Who's in Bessacarr? Mark. Mark who? Run upstairs on your windowsill, in the corner, cos I've seen it Stephen , go and get his number and while I'm thinking about it, go on. Yeah I've got it, Just go and get it. Yeah she told Christie that I were going with her. Mm. Oh I only just put number seven in there, surely. You what? I think I've mixed these buggers up. I'm supposed to be on tape number six. I'll have to t try that number seven. Yeah so I got all me bits Ah that's what I said, did you get ? Yeah. He only had fifty in the bloody shop, I thought oh good at least we've got ours. Oh he's never got any though has he? No,Was your tape any good when you got further into the film? Or did you take it back? I took that one back. It'd, I'd got this weird line on it one eighty nine I got this weird on it Yeah. and er I tried getting it off, anyway I thought I can't be bothered messing about with it Yeah. so I er what you call it, I took it back and I says er there's summat wrong with this one, I says it's got a line or whatever it is, I says I can't get it off. So he says oh well fair enough then. He says just put it over there he says and get yoursen another one so I picked that one up Mm. we sat and watched it last night. What was it? What's it called? It's there I got that one. He says sometimes they do get rogue tapes or summat. , who's in it? I can't see the bloody thing without me glasses. He's a good actor. Oh. No Christie's got with me. Cos you didn't go to town? Apparently Alice had told her that I were going to town with them Yeah. but Sarah, as I says, I were sick last night yeah. after me tea. Oh. I were alright till I had me tea Yeah. and I'd got a bit of an headache, well I took two tablets and it had gone before Steve come in and er I had me tea and I w I went like that and I thought God almighty! Yeah. And Steve says you got a pain? I says yeah, he says I've got one there an'all, he says I've had it on and off all day. Anyway about we had tea about what, half seven? I think it were about half past seven, and then about an hour after it started. He never said. Cos you had the other didn't you? Yeah. But that were nowt to do with it twenty four hours later. It should've been first thing in morning if that would happen. Mm. Mm. Yeah it were after I'd had summat to eat. Anyway I says to Alice it's not fair getting in somebody's car feeling the way I feel I says and puking in car. Yeah. So she says no so I says so I'll Mm. Oh my. Has he gone to college or is he in bed? He went about twenty to nine. I heard kettle and I thought he's still in house, him. Which normally he's took off Yeah. Yeah. Anyway he come up he says there's a cup of coffee there for you mum, and walked out. I thought bloody hell. Ooh. Very good. So I thought Oh Oh you should've heard him other day, all Parker pens that are in this house are his he says Oh great. and that pen that he broke weren't mine it were his. I says oh yeah, I says have you got the rest of them with it like? Yeah. And he says oh no, I says no I says it's a full set so keep your bleeding hands off, he says well all rest in house are mine. Oh my. Got to add your name to that one. No, I can leave your name off that. I am on number six, I s I thought I were. Reason they're mixed up he, he must've been in there messing about with them. Did you not mark them? Which ones you've been on? It's there, what it is it's on these pages Oh. like this one that's playing now is side Yeah. A on number six tape Yeah. but I've just took number five out and put it back in box, cos it tells you number five, number three Oh. and it tells you which one you're doing. It's just that Stephen's been rooting about in boxes. He's been nosy. He were that nosey he's nicked all pens, everything. I haven't got a pen! Tt. I've been filling it in It's like our house. I've been filling it in in pencil. Well it don't matter as long as have to go over it. So I don't usually fill it straight away anyway till I'm finished and but I always put the date like today's date. Well I can't see one either. No, can't even see a pencil. He's got an answer from that sugar place. Who we talking about? Did I tell you Steve No. wrote off for another job in ? No. Oh well i somewhere ne I thought it were Scunthorpe but it's not Scunthorpe it's Newark it's up Oh yeah. Yeah? And er it's summat sugar, I don't know what it is but it's electrician's job and he asked me to post that, when did I post that? Were it Monday? Did I post all them letters on Monday? I dunno they've been up there Oh I know I've started accumulating again. I always do, I always get about three or four letters and then end up posting them. It's cos I can't be arsed to go for one stamp. That's all it is. I know there's two up there but one's free. Mm. And I even forget to post the free ones. Do you? Oh it's summat about erm yeah it is you know erm where you vote for them union things I meant to ask you if they'd got a stamp I doubt it. I got a letter from my er phantom writer Mm. sent this home yesterday Mm. and it goes apple pies or, great big line, wrapped round I think it's bread pudding. Oh he wants something else now does he? Yeah apple pie or and a circle round bread pudding. I says he gets bleeding worse him. Please, it says please Helen were just er me and Helen were just talking about our bread pudding yesterday when she come round. Cos she does them bread and butter ones Yeah. nah I can't lose eight pou eight pound in fourteen days Oh. Oh it's give you breakfast for fourteen days. Yeah it's been in paper that. It's yesterday's. Yeah. Yeah. Tt talking about that Yeah I know, I've got to get numbers as well, I ain't done them yet. I'll do them when you're erm cos I meant to do them and I forgot all about it. He's you know not talking to me now. Why? Cos of the other He no it's summat entirely different, cos I says he were being sarcastic and keep your mouth shut if you can't speak normal. Oh. What was it? We watched that last night don't matter we watched that last night and he were chittering away about summat, I weren't taking a lot of notice Mm. and then it finished and he always turns video off but he never turns telly off, so I turned the telly off Mm. and he says you're not telling me you're coming to bed are you?says well that's what you normally do on a night time, he says oh so you're not sleeping on settee? I says if you can't think of nowt better to say just shut your mouth. Yeah. He says it every time I fall asleep on settee. Every time. Mm. Well Bill won't let me fall asleep on the settee. Well I says to him, I says if you were that interested I says while I'm watching I says why don't you come and see, I says, give us a shake Mm. but he never does. And I thought no, I'm not playing. So he wouldn't give me a kiss and he wouldn't say goodnight so I thought nah I'm not bothered. He were tired anyway, minute his head hit pillow he started chuffing snoring. Him and that snoring, it's driving me nuts. I must be driving Bill nuts with my snoring. Cos I don't normally snore unless I get a cold but when I get a cold I fucking I s wake myself up! I snore when I get a cold. And I'm getting it. Can you tell? Yeah. Slowly, but I'm getting it. That side of me's it's this side of me now. You've like half cleared? Er all that side's alright and I'm getting me eye's starting here and this one nostril. Mm. I were telling you about that sugar place, we're doing it again. Yeah go on. Erm I only posted it, I'm sure I posted it Monday Yeah. cos he filled it in at weekend and I posted it Monday or Tuesday, one of them two Well it's nearer anyway innit? Anyway er he's got a reply this morning. What's it say? I don't know. I've got to wait till half past seven tonight. Oh. No I haven't I've got to wait till half past five, it's Friday int it? Friday innit? He got two six one this week. What's that make it in four weeks? One thousand one hundred. That's not bad. That's not bad at all cos you thought it might've been about nine hundred with them other two didn't you? Oh no, they've gone now. Oh. This is start of a new one. Oh. Get there at end of twenty eighth. Well Bill's just been on his s er tt supposed to be going over to see to Sue's laying her paving slabs and everything Tomorrow? Yeah tomorrow. so he says but I don't know what to do he says cos if there's a job you know, if there's any overtime, cos there ain't been none but if there's any overtime he says I don't know what to do I said bloody do the overtime, let her hang about. Aye he mentioned it yesterday, working on Yeah. Saturdays and that. Yeah. He says he don't know yet with it being like his first complete week but he says if there's overtime he says what shall I do? I says bloody do it, I says she can wait till Sunday. Aye. But it'll be they'll nick them, they'll nick them, you know cos they can still nick them once they're laid! Well have you been reading in paper, what were I reading? I'd read something about slabs Nicked nicked a full street. Slabs or something, yeah. No a street. Oh. Erm Steve fetched Star as well yesterday and I'm sure it said they'd nicked a full street in this one. That Sun is getting ridiculous. They get their teeth into summat and they do about ten pages on it. Mm. So, and I'm sure it's this one, they nicked a street You know you park ? Yeah. They nicked a full pavement. I were reading Well they've got a bloody cheek then int they, to do a full street? Yeah. I don't know if it's erm tt a con cos it seems a bit unbelievable, nicking a street. Yeah but let's face it, if you're gonna do a street so they think oh well we're gonna get a new pavements down, you know, Yeah. wouldn't you? But they don't. Cos it's all about Paddy Ashdown int it? Oh who's bloody interested? I picked it up, I says to Steve who's Paddy Ashdown? He says you and your politics, I says that's right, me and my politics I says I don't think a lot of notice of them, me . Oh It don't matter what you read about, what you say, they're gonna do what they want anyway. Course they are. Yeah there's about just a minute Too much. Too much? You're not kidding er page nine so far Nine pages of same person. Surely to God they can find summat better to write about? Like this woman who's won two million, eighty odd er how old is she? She's knocking on, she were on the other day Sixty two. yeah. She's comfy for life now, she can afford a operation on her hip. Where is it? Do you know it annoys me, I know I've read it. They nicked whole street, and I only read it last night. Hmm. It annoys me when I can't find it . Ooh God we're gonna start now, I can feel it. What, your cough or your run? No me runny nose. Wouldn't mind if it were both bloody sides but it's only one. Mm. I can't find it. and then you can have it. I'll find it. I'll do what I usually do. Ah there's pencil! We have a pencil! Makes a bloody change. No pen? No. No cards neither by looks of it. Been alright if you'd come up because you can't claim it can you, after four o'clock. No. Mind you I need thousands. I want Saturday paper, I get that on time anyway so it don't matter. If I ever won If. If? I'd er oh I've got one out of pool numbers. Wow How many numbers? There's quite a few actually. Two, four, six, eight, ten, eleven. Monday Tuesday and Wednesday I didn't get any on one card. I've got two and it's Friday today . Yeah. It's summat to do. Do you know I've had a blue pen, I've had a black pen and now I'm down to a bloody pencil. Be a bloody crayon next. Oh you'll not find a crayon in this house. Mm. Everything, if it writes it's his for college. Mm. Cos that's what he'll a done gone out and then come and pinched It's not bad but he don't use them till they've run out he just uses them and leaves them laying about and come and takes some more. I'm gonna get a little packet of felt tips. I had a tin full of them. Just for our Craigy, I had an orange one and er another colour one and the orange one ran out the other day and he went potty. Did he? Yeah cos he, it was a different colour to his pen. So I've gotta get a little packet of felt tips. Oh. lots of pencils or something. I couldn't get them any closer. I've done it again. What darling? Broked it? Yeah you know what I've done, it's that er thing there well before I had it I used to put them on floor at side of ashtray, and now I leave it on settee and you know when I put me legs up, you know when you move over and watching telly? Yeah. You end up sitting on it. And I'm sure that's what's doing it. It's about five I've done in in two days. I'm not going to Nettos today I'll make do just go down the bottom. And I can't get these papers tight on these, they're stupid. This one broke altogether this has. Completely snapped it. Mm. Tt I was meant to bring you over a couple of chocolate biscuits and fifty pence for you to give to Craig cos he's bound to want something. To give to Craig? Yeah Oh! Yeah. I've got to collar him over weekend to see what he's doing. Mm. I think he'll be a lot better anyway. Well he likes it better there. And he were always chirpy. Yeah. I don't think I heard him whinge once. And he left your fridge alone. Mm. And I bet he's been down to see ducks. He would of done. Yeah well I don't know about yet I think it's too Steve might be taking him to see his nan on Saturday cos he knows Bill's going Saturday. That's if he's got any money, I dunno. I couldn't get over it. I still can't believe it actually. But she phoned up once at our house is Steve there? I says yeah and then I heard, I didn't hear what she said and I heard him say look if you want me to have him it's got to be legal. But by all accounts she's phoned up to the house four times. Yeah he says that there were a right slanging match going off in town. But I couldn't stop laughing, me . Has he phoned up since he's gone? No. I were gonna say how was he doing. No he ain't phoned up. I tried phoning him yesterday but there were no answer and then I thought oh bugger it, forget it. He'll a took bairn out cos they'll of gone for extra funds, social and got, they'll be doing that at moment won't they? He wou he would've been down there. takes him, to that green with Avenue Road yeah. Just as the bus goes into town Yeah, I know where you mean. you've got fields well he goes and takes a ball or something and throws it and tires him out a bit. That should cheer them all up, down there. Gets on alright with the landlady and that, no problem. Cos I went down there one day and I says where is he?got him she's giving him some cake and milk. But they all treat him good. Well he sleeps with them doesn't he? Yeah. Mm. No well what they've got is they've got that little settee thing that two seater Oh yeah. so he can either sleep in bed with his dad and J J or but they make him up a bed on that. But they will give him a bed if he's got him right, right? Mm. Cos they, they normally the others When does he get to know then? I don't know it's all gotta go through. He went to that thing didn't he? He's done it all right. He's done it right up till now anyway. And that were the mistake he made last time. Yeah. So it's all going be right anyway. Well actually she's wrote the letter she's signed everything and everything so Yeah. he can't say he's doing it wrong. No. Wonder if her mother's been. No idea, bloody twisted. She knows she can come up, he knows he can come down and that's it, I don't wanna know anything else. That's it. Still nosey though aren't they? Yeah as long as i nothing else is happening. Mm. He says she's, no way she'd move to Hampton Road. Well I ain't seen her since erm I haven't. And she ain't phoned possibly Wednesday, well I told her I were going up Thursday or Friday so I might nip up this aft Mm. I'll go get me cigs from Kwik Save Yeah. so Mm. I watched him fetch me coal this morning and made sure he filled the bleeding bag. Mm. I still had to buy three. I got about two left in bunker Yeah. and I bought three and I thought there should be five cos I didn't have a fire on Sunday at all and twice this week I haven't lit it till fi you know them four buckets Yeah. that I had in there? Well that were two days ago. Yesterday I said that to you, cos I says oh who's been good and filled them No it were day before, you said it Wednesday. I said I had. Was it? Oh. We didn't go in there yesterday did we? I can't remember. Cos I come back to your house. Yeah, where's me fags gone? You've just had them they're in your coat pocket. Oh I'm looking in here, I'm not looking in there. No I've still got one of them left haven't touched the coal since. So you can say from Wednesday till today there's all coal that was in the bunker plus what they put on top. Sh I should have at least half a bunker left. Put that in the fire. Mm. Yeah if he gets an interview for this job he's taking day off to do it. I don't blame him. He says he is now because April's coming up. Yeah. That's area innit? Newark. Other side of Yeah Newark it's not far. It's not that far. Cos that's, we go to Newark then Grantham going down south to me mum's we go all that way. Well it says Newark on front. I says Scunnie but it's not Scunnie is it? No it's past Scunnie past Scunnie. I thought it were on past Worksop. I dunno. I know it's past Scunnie. Flo didn't call last night. She said she would. Maybe she's poorly. Everybody you talk to is poorly. I spoke to her on Wednesday, she seemed alright, never mentioned she were poorly. Mm. I were talking to her for about half an hour. And I says are you still working tomorrow? She says yeah she says I'll pop in for a quick cuppa. Cos I boiled kettle at quarter to five cos normally she gets here about five Mm. and I boiled it about quarter to five and I thought She didn't come. She didn't come, no. Maybe she missed bus. She's always doing that. I thought ooh. Well I think Sarah's gone to work, sounds like it cos she hasn't phoned and said owt. Mm. I got up at ten past eight. I seen curtains open when I got up. Well I looked at the clock, it said twenty to eight, I thought sod it I ain't getting up. What time did you finally go to bed? About ha quarter past Oh you only got up for a coffee? No I didn't even get up for that, I come downstairs, I made myself an orange juice he Vicked me back and me front again I tried to get back to sleep. It took ages. You look like I looked yesterday. You look terrible. Well I feel a lot better. It's just if I lay down. I had that, like a tickle, it starts off Yeah. a tickle and you cough cough cough cough cough. No this is still phlegm. Oh mine's not it's a tickle. Cos I can cough, you can't. I can cough but it's not coming nowhere. It's not doing anything? It just won't get up there. It gets up to about there and it just won't come. And then you choke? Yeah. What time's Bill home today, half past twelve? No he'll be home before that today cos they leave at half eleven, they clock off at half eleven now. He'll be home between twelve and half past then. No he'll be home about five to twelve. It only takes him twenty five minutes? Well i if his mate comes in, like he's got a good mate, so if his mate comes in he releases his mate early so if he releases him early, he could be er it takes him about thirty five to forty minutes. But like he might come in say twenty past eleven something Mm. like that cos Bill goes early to release them on Fridays cos that way they can go shopping with their missus and everything. Oh tha so it's only half a day's ever? On Fridays. Is it only a thirty odd hour week? Steve's is. Thirty nine. Thirty eight hour thirty eight hours a week Bill's. Well if Steve goes for this interview he's working till, he'll not be in till half past eight because he says all that week he can gain four hours work because erm he's found out you don't have to finish after two hours, you can work as much you like, finish at ten o'clock at night if you want. Yeah but he don't wanna knacker himself out does he? Well I says to him I says well make sure, well it's five past eight he'd get in instead of five past seven Mm. cos all this week Yeah but I've done well with his tea. I've been putting it out just as he's walked in, I said I'm getting good me at this tea. He says aye you wait till I change shifts. Mm. just talk about Oh Erm no little lad come for Avon money and everything from Alice but Mm. he didn't, he give me it on Wednesday night and I should've give her it yesterday morning but she didn't get it till last night. And she didn't fetch money till this morning, she didn't have her purse on her. Oh I've got to get a birthday card for our Shaz, I've gotta get a birthday card for our Steve. Darren and Sharon's . Not far. You what, say it again? Not far, I've gotta get a birthday ca er tt that's you and birthday cards! Yeah. Our Darren and Sharon's arguing again. Sarah's seen Sharon in town she says how's things and she went and she says where's Darren, haven't seen him for three days. Tt. I thought bloody hell they're at it again. They were alright up to Christmas. But then again I seen them Yeah. last week, they went past me in car, they were pipping and they were both together, she were driving. Mm. He's been a good lad, he's not been driving. Good. Shane's bought himself another car. What kind's he got this time? A Metro. And he's a bi big lad for a Metro int he? Mm. Mm. Paid six hundred. That's not too bad then. There's a nice little car up here, that Chevrolet thing I don't know who's selling it like, dunno how much it is even but it's a nice little car. Two tone brown, have you seen it? On front? Yeah just going up I think that's er Ruby's. Colin's Ruby. Oh you mean out front here? Yeah. I thought you meant on High Street, I've seen No. no I've not seen that one then. Well he's not bothered at moment, Gary, is he? No he's more bothered about France. I'm pleased he's not bloody bothered anyway. While we get all these icy roads. Well that's it. Ooh! Well I haven't got a frozen chip and I haven't got a tatie in the house. I've got some frozen chips. I ain't. I have. Have you seen size of joints of meat down there? I ain't been down there for about three weeks since I've been going there. I got a chicken from there other day, I went for a joint of pork I thought oh I'll have a couple of them joints, fetch a couple back and er I says it's not Christmas now you know. He says what you on about? I says look at size of these! You know that ginormous one I had? Yeah. Yeah. Well they're all still that size. I don't know how much they are. But you That one that we both bought the same size? Yeah well these are bigger. Oh. It's like a top of top of a leg,i it's a lot bigger. But Oh it's no good to me that size. I thought well I'll pop down. Be alright getting one in for Easter. Oh aye that size. But then again they're not bothered. They don't like por well Bill don't like pork. I'm not buying Steven an Easter egg. When is it? I don't know. It's in April. If I've got money they'll have one, if I ain't got money they can all do without. Well I'm giving him a tenner. I thought why spend it all on chocolate because usually I buy about six or seven quid's worth of eggs, a mixture of eggs Mm. and he ends up with Creme Eggs and then proper eggs and that and I thought that's just a waste of money at his age cos when Easter comes up, four weeks after he's seventeen. Yeah. Do you know I calculate, I went on to him other night and I says you've only nine week then I turned round and says no you haven't you've got eight and a half weeks and he hasn't he's got twelve and a half . No. Till he's seventeen. It were a nice age for me, seventeen. You were married then weren't you? Not dead on seven wait a minute were I sixt I thought you got married when you were sixteen? I can't remember Kath. I were born in forty seven No. then I were married in sixty five I weren't fifteen! Forty seven, forty eight, forty nine, fifty, fifty one, fifty two, fifty three, fifty four, fifty five, fifty six, fifty seven, fifty eight and when did you get married again? Sixty five. Sixty five. Forty eight, forty nine, fifty, fifty one, fifty two, fifty three, fifty four, fifty five, fifty six, fifty seven, fifty eight, fifty nine, sixty, sixty one, sixty two sixty two you were fifteen Well I had Billy at eighteen. That's sixty four. He were born in nineteen sixty four weren't he? No I weren't married until six he, Billy were born in sixty six. Sixty six. That makes you nineteen. No that's right cos he were born in er Hong Kong. you had him when you were eighteen, he were born in June and you was nineteen in September weren't you? In September yeah. Yeah. And it were sixty five you got married then? Sixty five I got married, I had Bill in sixty six February I got married sixty six, June, I had him. So what's that? A year and two months. Sixteen month you'd been married. Yeah. Sixteen months. That's a year and four month. Yeah. Sixteen month you'd been married. Sorry. Do you want another cuppa? Yeah Have you been picking? Yeah. Have you just done that? Yeah. I thought I were seeing things, blood. Urgh first bit Yeah I did that on the car the other day. first bit of blood I've seen all . Cough it up. It's all we've been doing innit? Yeah. I'm surprised I haven't had any of it till now. You've done well. I've done ever so well. But me luck don't hold out forever does it? No. I ain't got that horrible tightness it me chest now thank God. Well that's what worri were upsetting you most weren't it? Yeah. I'm bleeding well glad. I know! I was gonna wash me hair today if I felt better. Hmm! No wash. Well you've got some colour at least this morning you did have. It's blown me brains out that. That's one way to do it. Have you seen Steve's fancy glasses? Come from work. Weird aren't they . Wide int they? They're them safety glasses. Yeah Bill's got a pair but he's got a bi a little bit of plastic on the side of it. It is it's there. Oh yeah, he's got some. Yeah. I says they're only sun glasses. Yeah just Mirage or summat they're called. Mm. Cos we were messing about with them other day when he fetched them in. Cos I says put them on and let's have a look he looked right stupid he did. Hmm. Thought bloody hell. And I've gotta get some cornflakes today, my Gary must've used the last few this morning. Ooh Look at this carpet, it's a bloody disgrace. Mine's terrible. I can't be bothered. No I can't be bothered. When I feel better It's the thought of shampooing it that I can't be bothered about. when I feel better it'll get done feel like this. Ah. I've gone down to one egg in me freezer I've got w I've got one. I dunno why I've got one though. I know why I've got one. I don't. Other night we had bacon and egg and I didn't fancy it very much so I just had two slices of bacon and one egg and made a couple of sandwiches out of it. Oh. But Steve always has two eggs. Cos I thought bloody hell. Enjoyed their tea last night. the big garden peas with the steak and chips and I done them two fried eggs each. Toby enjoyed that? Yeah. Gary enjoyed it. Did Bill go to sleep? Yeah for a little while. Not when I How many cards did you get in end? About six Six or seven. Six or seven. Did you get one off Steve? Yeah. Oh you got one this time? He were the first person to send one. Did he post it? Or bring it? He brought it. He brought it. He sent that one with all the roses over. Oh yeah I've seen that, it's nice that one. I meant to ask him if he'd decided if he were getting married or not and I forgot all about it. He'll make up his mind. I was that busy trying to convince him that he had to er go to doctors cos I says what did they actually do? He says they lifted his eyelid up and just poured water in it and when they finished he says that he says Wasn't out. it was still there, it hadn't done Yeah. he says and then they didn't do nowt else. I says you can't see like that you'll be walking in I says go on, get down to nurse. And I convinced him to go to nurse, that's why he was so long. I thought well he's better off going to nurse and then she'll get that magnifying glass and have a look. It wouldn't've surprised me that that he could feel were an eyelash like mine was. I said that, but it is a mess though innit? It is a mess. All this side of his face were puffing up with it weren't it? Mm. I noticed the minute he come in. And all his eye's crusted. It's gone crusty on top. He's got some stuff to put in it though hasn't he? Yeah. Did they give him owt down at doctors? He never said. Oh. See I were that busy I never even noticed him come back cos I thought I'll leave back door unlocked and he come in and he put me hat and me keys down there, cos I noticed Yeah. cos I walked in somebody walked in with me don't know, and I says oh Stephen's been. I know somebody walked in with me. I can't remember who. No I'd been to shop. Oh it was Sarah. Mm. Cos I went to shops for milk. And she wanted to borrow a couple of videos. So I lent her them. Cos she says you wouldn't lend me none when I lived at Arthur's, I says no because every time I lent one at our Arthur's he swore black and blue it were his. He was a swine for that. complained how he says I've got one of his and I hadn't got it, it's Linda that had got it. What's she doing with his tapes? She went up with little lad and he were watching it and he says I wouldn't mind this, well Arthur says I'd al he'd already taped it off telly and so he says I'll tell you what you can have it if you give me a blank tape back. Yeah? So he give it little lad. Anyway because I were there with them you see he thought it were me that had got it and I says I haven't got it. Mm. And then he said it were you that had got it, I says Maggie hasn't been. Cheeky sod! Yeah. Well somebody's been he says, I says it were Linda, I says with little'un, I says you give it young'un, he says I did didn't I? Cheeky sod blaming me. Well he remembers you and Irene Yeah. if I hadn't've said Linda Mm. he would've said Irene next. Mm. Cos you're only two that usually goes up with me. How long's it been since I've been there? Oh God two year? Fucking years. Is it two year? If not more. It's a couple a year ago. Mm. Before you went on diet. Yeah my earrings turned up I can't find cap. There it is. I'm going to go to our Albert's on Saturday. Mm so I shall get up and go. I'm going to get me pennies back. Oh yeah. Well they belong to Access card. So I'll put it with it, that's hundred and forty. My coalman turned up at twenty past eight this morning! I looked at it was twenty past eight cos he pulled up as I drew my curtains. Yeah at twenty past eight! Cos when he knocked on door and I thought oh I wonder if it's that parcel midi hi-fi system I'm Yeah. waiting for er that's what I thought it were. Yeah. And I opened door and he says coal love I says you're early aren't you ? I says I'll have three. We still haven't heard nowt about that bloody coal. We ain't have we? Not a thing and they said January, it's February now. What date is it today, seventh? Yeah. Yeah I were gonna write that in on this one I Oh look she's getting her coal right up there Her what? She's getting her coal and the board's right up here They do that. walk. They're crackers. Straight outside her house. Be alright, start off with a pen and end up with a pencil . Never mind. I it writes. I'm gonna sort my food cupboard out, see what I've gotta get Yeah. But you got extra didn't you though? Yeah cos me freezer's empty innit? I've only got a couple of loaves. I know you said you were extra and then going to freezer shop or summat. Yeah but I ain't got the extra cos they've ate it. The more you get the more they eat? That's one way to do it. Oh by the way if you see Jackie say yours made one glove for Matthew and he's half way through the next one. Oh has he gone on to Matthew's now? He's finished Craigy's, Craigy's got his. Oh I didn't see them finished I only seen one. Well the other one looked identical to that one. Well it's bound to do int it ? Yeah. And now he's do he's done one for Matthew and he's half way through the other one. I wonder if she hasn't been down because she don't know if you know or not. She'll know. Gonna say she should do It makes Unless she's got a guilty conscience. Thinks you might get on at her. No. I'll not get on at her. I know you won't. She's daft as a brush when she starts thinking like that. Yeah. Cos Matthew? August, September December, January, February six er eighteen month old. Cos if you say, if you talk to her, say we all thought you were coming down on Thursday. He did he said while I were there. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Say it's nowt to do with us. You know, you could still come up. Mm. Mind you I've told her that before. I know but you know how she is. Yeah well she can come up. As long as she comes first to make sure Oh she'll tell me about it. Well thingy has her baby in A er er April. Yeah beginning of April. How long's she got? Eight weeks or six weeks? About six weeks I think. She have it middle? Well you get first week off about six, seven week off don't you? I hope it's a girl. I ain't bothered what it is I don't think. I hope it's a girl. Helen said that yesterday. What exactly the same? She says Stephen could do with a little girl cos he's Yeah. That's exactly what I were thinking. I thought well he's got a couple of kids so he could do with a little girl. It'd be spoilt rotten. That'll keep him on his toes. All his attitudes will change. Don't matter what it is as long as it's alright. Course it'll be, it'll be alright. Because the baby was only a w Well she walked she walked by me in town and if I didn't know her better I wouldn't know she were pregnant. I couldn't tell at all. Mm. Whether it were coat she had on or not She's hippy though. She is hippy cos I mean before she was never no hips. I never noticed. Mm. She is hippy now. Oh bloody hell. I ain't seen her for about two months. Is it that long? December Yeah. it were December, yeah. Well you've heard her on phone, she's phoned you quite a few times. Oh yeah she phones up and that. I'll get your cup of tea for you. You had a good day? Yeah. Good. You'd think you'd emigrated. He's like this all the time so Yeah he's I know I've heard him. Shut up It's er insurance, they wanna put up your insurance. And me bloody petrol gauge has been on half way along Scunnie Road. It's been what? Oh yeah? little pump comes on, Yeah. pump. anyway probably get about three miles out er two or three miles of it before it runs out. She's going on fumes. Yeah. Steve's keeps doing that now. Since he's worked down there, it never used to do it before. First time I've had it, well second time innit What on fumes? Yeah. Oh. Oh oh What you been today,? Driving. Oh. Digging out. six o'clock to nine o'clock else to dig out. Mm. Could've left it until Saturday Are you working tomorrow? No. only one bloke there. He got one other day. We thought it were a new card or summat and it's not. How many cards have you had? I had loads but since I ain't had none. We've only ever had that one. You got it same time as I got that one, that's last year's card that we've got. Ooh. It's a load of rubbish. It'll start the fire off later. Yeah she's gonna forward that this aft she says. I'll phone you from town, I says don't forget I'm on lollipop. Yeah. She's packing up I'm sure. Mm. ? Me? Oh I gave Lloyd the coupons to give to Tommy, I hope he don't bloody forget. Well if we win a quarter of a mill you wanna take it out of his house. If anybody does forg if anybody can forget it's Lloyd . Me jeans dry? No I've not long put them out on the line. I think we ought to ask for a pay increase, not from him, from the job cos he comes home scruffy this is the cleanest that he's come home so far. Steve comes home scruffy from this place. Oh yeah but yesterday and the day before he took his glasses off and he was like a black and white minstrel. Wait till the bloody summer comes and the dust starts blowing. Are they sun glasses or your proper ones, your new ones? Proper ones. They're new ones? No. Gotta get them mended cos the erm whatsit's got in here screw hole Oh I've been meaning to ask and I keep forgetting. I can't, need wear them all the time, gotta I never take them off now . Do I? Well you don't look right without them now. I never take them off, And then you've got them other ones, the white ones ain't you? What you use for reading. Reading glasses. Yeah. Are you supposed to have two different pair like? He's got two pairs. One's long distance and reading. said yeah he said we can do some long distance ones. Go on I'll have them ones. have the two like oh they're weird them, Joan got some of them hasn't she? And she Bifocals innit? They drove her nuts. Took nearly a fortnight to realize that like that, she were like Noddy. next week now. Nice. Thank you. Have you got me a pressie? No I ain't got you a pressie. I got myself a pressie actually and I ain't bloody ate it yet. I might eat the bugger now, look at that, I bet it's gone soft. Been in pocket since nine o'clock. Not for long, dog's seen it. No you can't have it. He's gonna eat the paper instead. Get off ! Swine. If his lordship comes up Kath, our Bill Billy, yeah? Yeah. Tell him we're not ill. We're not on C B. Oh. Well he come up last Friday but you weren't in. Weren't we? No. I knew you'd gone No we'd gone to Nettos Oh. I knew you'd gone to bank but Maggie never said you were going to Nettos tell him where you were. went down there till late. It were about twoish. Think it were about two. Yeah cos we're always back for then. Oh well I'm gonna watch me Home and Away and nip downstair But you want to see Steve get some money cos we're going down. Save you ge getting the bike out and wasting petrol. Oh alright then. I want hundred. An hundred Conway Red, Conway Red. What about baccy? I've got er You've got his baccy? I've gotta get another one but I can get that from anyway, that's A hundred Conway Reds. Yeah. What's that then? Cigarettes. They don't sell them. They do. They do them, that's where she gets them What, Nettos? We're not going to Nettos today. Who ain't? We ain't. Why? Cos I wanna go down there to get some frozen stuff instead. We always go in Nettos . So there. I'll go down It's cheaper for dog food. We're going to Nettos. It is, it's a lot cheaper. Well she a lot cheaper and she fills the bloody basket up. She never does up there. You can't down there. You can't afford it up there. It's gone. What's gone? Where's me ashtray gone out the hole? Where's the ashtray gone out the hole Bill? What? You're the only one you don't use them. Get stuffed. You only use them when Kath's here. Yeah I know I like being posh then. that bloody last night Blame me! It was you, you were sitting there. I know, well I couldn't get up to get an ashtray could I? Did you wanna get up and get an ashtray? We've still got two big tins, them ginormous ones so you'll only need four of them forty five P ones. What er he charges er is it fifty four or summat like that for them Fifty five. fifty five for them little Bill. And that a lot better dog food, that er what he had and he woofs it all doesn't he? That forty five P stuff from Nettos. No. Yeah. Yeah it's a lot cheaper there. Forty four. Well whatever it was, I know it was in the forties. But that stuff up there, Rufus, it stinks vile. Oh our Mike prefers his dry stuff. And his bones. Won't bloody have it no more. Bones and his I thought he'd gone off it but I got wrong bag. Mm. There's three different kinds, one with stuff weren't it? a right lot of cereal Yeah. er there's one that the dog has Yeah. and there's this other one, well I went in shop, well I always get him to deliver it Yeah. and I went in shop I said a sack of dog food I said German Shepherd and got it home and I thought this looks different, it were ginormous chunk things in it and he were going ptew, ptew and they were all over garden What was it? I don't know what it were, it were like great big bits of gristle or whatever it is but it were hard. You know when you stew it Yeah. and it soft it wouldn't soften up, it stayed hard and they were all over garden. He didn't want that. So I went in and told them and they'd given me wrong sack. You know why I've gotta go Nettos cos he likes his Angel layer cake from there. I don't. It's cheap there. You eat it! You ate it all! Well it's not my fault. Only a little bloody thing as it was. Yeah but you still ate it all. Well not, somebody else could've ate it, there was a piece in the fridge for three days. Who ate it? I did cos I thought well if nobody else was eating it, I might as well eat it. Cos you have that one, Gary likes his apple pies. I like apple pies an'all. Yeah well you're not having both, you get one. And I must get some Sweetex. I know you must. You didn't listen to me when I keep telling you. Well I've got to get some. That's cheaper from the chemist. Is it? If you get it round er Hatfield, you buy two you get one free. Aye I've seen it on shelf, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I've seen it. That's Donny? No round Hatfield. Hatfield. Doctor's surgery. Cos it, I think it were one pound thirty nine or one pound forty six, something like that not dear, anyway er to buy two and then you get the third one free. I bought two Radox and got a free one. Never even had a bloody bath in it. Well we all know who uses it don't we? Oh not me. Our Gary. I don't get to use it in our house neither. Put it on windowsill and I think ooh on a Friday I like using it, I think I'll go and get a bath and you pick box up, it's empty. Always. I like the green one. Pine. In the green box. Pine, yeah. That's nice that one. That pink one's horrible. It's with Steve getting a bath every day and Stephen, both of them's nicked it. Mm. Well I've done another load of washing if you wanted to count how many units I've used. You still doing that? more money. Oh. It was nine point seven yesterday. I'm doing well. On a Sunday and a Saturday, Saturday's me worst day he reckons. Well Saturday is your worst day cos we have telly on till twelve o'clock at night. Yeah, we have telly on and I er I'm cooking and doing things in the kitchen, there's more cups of teas and everything. And Saturdays I use thirteen point something weren't it? Yeah. So it averages out about eleven units. A day? A day. Is that including your heater? Everything. Er n what heater? When we put the immersion on it were only that thirteen weren't it? Yeah well that bugger. I've had It's alright for ha put it on for half hour maybe, you know, but you forget it If we've got no coal. you forget it and it stays on four bloody days. Yeah. And that's no good. Costs too much that. Mm. What I'll do is get a little light run down then you can see Yeah. if light's on then you can tell oh immersion's on. And turn it off. Instead of going upstairs all the bloody time to look. Yeah ours is in airing , you've got to bend down and look at it to see if light's on. It's stupid. Olwen has hers on for half an hour of a morning, Joe puts it on at half eight and dead on nine o'clock that immersion's turned off. Yeah that's okay like when summer time comes and you don't want a fire Yeah. cos you're saving on the coal then we're you know Yeah. Didn't you tell him? What? coalman in street. Oh now she even had him on on something didn't you? That Ken fella the coalman. The different coalman. He were parked up there well every coalman I've pulled him about this coke stuff and I'd seen him other day and I pulled him, explained that I were going over on April first Mm. how much it is and he starts at five pound a bag. Oh we'll have his then. We'll find out Yeah Ken he's called. What day was it? Er today. Friday weren't it? Can't remember what day it was. I mean if we tried one bag of that for a fiver. cos a man called and I caught him instead. Mm. So it's in a minute I should see him Can we afford a bag this week? At a fiver! Well we pay that for the other coal. You pay five twenty five for that bloody Well we could just get one bag and that coke. and see if it It's not April yet. You can see what it looks like. See what it's like. You've got to remember, you know when your fire's lit? I don't want to see what it looks like. You know when your fire's lit? Yeah . Once it's lit with that stuff you're supposed to shut your bottom all tight. Waste of time with ours, it wants bloody cementing in. Well it wants a new grate. Well it's not the grate, it's the I think when we've cemented it together it wants a bigger fireplace for that Yeah. for that boiler Eighteen inch. I think that is an eighteen Well that's a fourteen inch grate, fire a fourteen inch grate but you've got the gap all round it like so I thought eighteen inch. I went to bloke there didn't I? Yeah. At er Wingfield Road and I said to them, I mentioned to them fourteen inch that way. He says that's what you want but I said yeah but there ain't no bloody fit I reckon it ought to be them on legs maybe. Yeah, could be. You know Have you tried a sixteen? Wonder if we've still got ours. I'll have a root in garage cos ours, you know when we had ours ripped out, Steve stuffs everything in garage and shed, and it had legs on, I'll have a look, that's a sixteen inch. See if I can find it. Cos you're an eighteen inch aren't you? Yeah we went from sixteen to eighteen. What's that? What's that? Fourteen or sixteen? It's only little, it's little compared to Kath's. Mine's ginormous. We can put a bucket on and it fills ours up, she can put a bucket on and it's flat. Can't you? Costs a fortune. I just got me coal and I was looking solvent and I've only got so many weeks and I've got to empty the stupid thing again. I shouldn't bother I should just carry on chucking a bit on here and there same as everybody does, I can't see many buggers go for that bloody eight pound a bag. Ooh I can't. They'll all be buying briquettes. Briquettes. They're called briquettes. Briquettes. Yeah briquettes. Yeah, five pound a bag. It ranges from five to eight pound fifty. Briquettes who's are they, briquettes? It looks like coal. Er Thruppenny bits. How much how much did I tell you them briquettes were? I can't remember Bill. But he, that other bloke, he said they were briquettes for eight pound thirty didn't he? Yeah. Yeah coalman. yeah I told you a couple of weeks ago. Geoff were telling me I can remember you telling her. Oh yeah. coalman? I don't know, all I know is Geoff was on about getting briquettes he said which were ever so cheap. I asked him er about them and he says his mate always uses them and he says they're right good. Yeah, they burn like hell do they? Yeah. Erm If you've got any left in top you use it to light again. Yeah Geoff was saying something, bloody hell make it last longer cos I was telling you I says ooh not Coalite it's briquettes he said Yeah. but I don't know if that was five pound a bag, I think that was cheaper than five pound a bag. Ooh. Cos every time I spot a coalman I pull them. Pour that in there Bill, Stop smoking then. I haven't hardly smoked at all today. Told you last night smoked like hell yesterday afternoon, she coughed her bloody heart up last night. Yeah. She's done the same again now. You better sleep down here I tell you. You won't let me ! I will. I think he's tired . That's the only thing wrong with Nettos, they don't sell cigs and baccy and stuff do they? I've never noticed. It weren't no cheaper if they did were it? Garage is as cheap as anybody here for fags. I reckon they must be buying them knocked off. Well everybody else is four forty six for half ounce of Old Virginia. Her's is one forty two innit? Yeah has always been cheaper. How come the garage sells it cheaper? Well they buy it in bulk don't they? Gateways must do, places like that but Well theirs are cheap. Only one Yeah but I paid for mine. yeah, not as cheap as garage. It were. Course the garage has gone up then. All cigs in garage has gone up. Have they? They went up other week didn't they? Yeah all fags went up. I haven't been there for oh I'm always going down there for petrol now. You went to for your petrol. Well I've gotta fill tank up again now. Yeah. Yeah. It don't last for long. Oh dear . I did well, I had hundred pound in me purse last night till Steve says can I have me pocket money and can I have me petrol and can I have this and I paid for coal and I've got forty. I thought God I haven't even got shopping yet. Then Access arrived, I thought bloody hell. Why don't you come to Nettos with us Kath? I didn't fetch money for it. He's gotta go and get the money first. I only want cigs and Oh. I didn't see any of that in there. I got mine on Monday didn't I? Oh yeah. Didn't she get flabbergasted? She couldn't believe it. She had a panic. Whatsername took us to right, Alice and Kath didn't realize that you couldn't write a cheque, did you? No. So she says give us your twenty quid, cos she only had a few bits didn't she? Yeah. She didn there would've been enough change in that and Kath was gonna go straight to the bank and get her some money back, right? Anyway, oh no let me get me mine first! And she got right flummoxed didn't she? I says here Kath So I got it off Maggie and I went and got yours back, fetched it back over didn't I? Mm. I've never heard of not being able to pay by, you can't, it was cheque, Access, nowt. Well it says on there, big notices that shows you Oh I've never noticed. that's why they keep the price low. I didn't notice that before. Cos every cheque they get and gotta put in it costs them money. Oh. So just cash and it's like a cash and carry innit? It is yeah. Cheap er cheaper stuff. Well them dog biscuits, they're only a pound. One forty six I paid Ninety nine pence wasn't they, for him? Where did I get them other ones from then? Gateways, one forty six. Well I got me shopping and it cost me forty summat one. No it's not Gateways , them two tins,no . One forty six them other things, and he don't like them. Well he's not that struck on them. Well he's got two choices, he can either eat them or starve. Well he ate them mix the gravy in with the meat steak You always say that and er and you don't. What? Starve. No. He'll never starve. Just some egg chips and beans he'll be He sleeps all day now though. You what? He sleeps all day now doesn't he? Yeah. Sleeps all day sleeps all bloody night, worse than a cat. Well he came upstairs this morning, got on the bed and he went flop! And his head went straight across me chest, I thought oh, oh it's made me chesty. He didn't wanna move his bloody head. Mm. It's alright in the winter he keeps your back warm. When he gets out of bed he's straight up. Yeah? Yeah. Oh. It's alright, he'll sleep with you next week won't he? Yeah. And then starts getting used to me coming back on days nex week after then. Yeah and then he growls cos he don't want him to get into bed. He don't does he? Yeah, when he's ready for coming upstairs to bed he growls, he don't wanna move. bed you see, get used to it, and when I come in in the morning and try and chuck him off well he normally comes down like but when I bloody go to go to bed with you, that'll be it cos he'll be straight there again. He runs up the stairs quicker than what Bill can get up there. Does he? Yeah. To fight for the space. I never see him move so fast, the other night or the other week weren't it? Yeah. I was at the wardrobe, I'd just took me trousers off and the bloody door flew open and I turned round, he was on the bed! That bloody quick he But he's go to sleep that quick though don't he? Oh he pretends to. You can tell when he's awake, his ears are straight up listening to everything you say. But he's never I think I'll go fishing Sunday. Are you? That'll be nice cos we haven't been for a bit have we? I'm not going if you come up. ? We're going fishing. Fishing. Whereabouts we going? Where am I going? Where are we going? Where am I going? Well you'd have to ask me if you can go yet! I'm going anyway. No you're not supposed to say that. I'll tell you. I'm going. You can bloody go . Mm. Is it still fishing season like? Eh? Is it still fishing season? Of course it's still fishing season. Oh. It's only February Half past three Sunday then. licence yet, fishing. No they ran out hadn't they? Not yet. Ran out of what? in March and one for an hour. Oh yeah. Cos I were looking at Steve's. Trent Yorkshire. You know twin rivers? Yeah. When bailiff comes round you've gotta pay for fishing. Yes er a pound is it or what? Pound fifty I think it is. Day ticket? Yeah. Mm. Because somebody else has took over. Where do you go, twin rivers Crowle? Scunnie Road. Yeah, Crowle roundabout? Yeah. bloody cars parked there all the time, early in the morning they're parked there. Yeah? Where it says cars on that bloody little green bit Yeah. there. They've made a er when you go down Gainsborough Road innit? Yeah. Like a car parking space. Yeah a few get there. Ooh I don't know. Gotta get there early to bloody get your, you couldn't bloody park your car there I shouldn't think. Mm. He's been up. Yeah I've seen at six o'clock in the morning going there, fishing nights. There's a lot, we went night fishing and it were packed there were loads. Well it must be doing well then. What's your bread situation if they've got any? Eh? What's your bread situation if they've got any? Ah if they've got any just fetch us a couple. Cos I when I went, not last time the time before, they only had that thirty nine P and I wouldn't pay it. yeah. Oh I'll wait till you come back. Oh I ain't going yet. I'll wait till you come back. Your cupboard looks like my drawers. Our drawers look like that an'all. Get that fag out your mouth, you're choking me. Bill. I'm tr I'm smoking all your fumes here. They don't sell taties in Nettos do they ? Yeah. I found veg. Found what? Of course they do, yeah cos we bought them onions and carrots didn't we? bloody sweet papers . If they cough once They're yours. they're mine. How come ? Cos them Lockets you pick them up and take one out the packet and all the paper's all they're not stuck to them. Oh they just come out? Yeah. I bet you didn't buy a paper today either did you not? No I'll get one when I go down the road. Where's the light bill? I dunno. all the light bills. the light things what you pay the light bills with. I know what you mean. ? Yeah, every fortnight. Oh I didn't know you could. Yeah. There's more bloody letters here for Steven than any bugger else's. Yeah, make sure they're stuck all in one place. No not at the moment. I accumulate all his mail together. to know where he is before he gets all his mail. He should be hearing something soon shouldn't he? Probably. Last one, December the twenty seventh. December the twenty seventh? That's a spare one. That's an old one when you that's December twenty seventh today's date. put it down, can't find it. I put that er I couldn't find that cheque book for love nor money. You found it in the end? No I wanted two didn't I? I could only find one, so In the briefcase weren't it? No I looked, that were empty. Oh. So anyway I cancelled that one and I got another one this morning. They sent me another out and I thought oh right, but if I find it I've to let them know, either give them it back or Yeah. tell them I've found it and they'll take the cancel thing off and You can use it. I can use it but I've gotta find it first but they'll keep sending me one till I've found the other. Talking to Joan this morning. Is she alright? She just wondered if we were going down. I says I've already told you about it, she says yeah I know she says but you're going for some petrol tonight, I just wondered if you were coming up for an hour tonight. Says yeah alright I says we'll call in for an hour. And she says oh well you're not coming tomorrow, she says how about us coming to your house tomorrow? I says well it's up to you. they're sensitive aren't they Right before we er kick off the lecture erm we'll have a lecture on Wednesday right hopefully we'll finish the course then on Wednesday, we're running over a touch behind Will that be the last one? Yes, that will be the last one . We may finish today but I don't think so erm Now I was talking to your Doctor who was wondering whether we might want to go out for a few beers at some point going home for Christmas or possibly after the exams Both so are you all going home fairly sharpish? Oh yeah tomorrow night Right in that case its probably a better idea if we go out after the exams, if you want, I mean, don't you don't have to Yeah right, well in that case erm we'll put a notice up or something erm around the exam period and let you know when we we will go out and we'll try sneak a few beers in after your exams but before the start of the second semester so erm We'll have to try figure out a time when you're all available. Right Okay, so on Friday we were looking at erm a model of agricultural supply and response that incorporated erm, a notion that farmers take some time er to react to changes in er in prices erm due to psychological acquiring fixed factors and so on and so forth. Although hypothesis as a useful er sort of description of how farmers might erm adjust their supply it's a very simple one alright. If you recall, we said that the desired level of output S R T simply function of last year's prices alright or more im ,or alternatively right, you make erm the planting decisions on the basis right of current prices right, so when that supply comes onto the market in say a years time it's now a crop right. That supply will be determined by, not current market prices but prices of a year ago when you made the planting decisions right. Now if you do recall your first year notes, this is the relationship underlines a cobweb model, right that prices were based on erm or supply decisions were based on prices at planting right and we showed you that cobweb model erm farmers make systematic errors right cos they never appreciate the cycle there is a cycle to prices, right so they're making systematic errors right cos prices are high this year as a result erm erm of plant a lot so that when the supply comes on the market next year right, prices are very low and you would thought farmers would er, would learn but prices fluctuated right. So we may want to introduce a more sophisticated mechanism for determining what the desired level of supply is and what we'll do is that we'll say this is actually a special case of a much more general, er more s sophisticated . Right what we're going to do is to introduce the idea of expectations right, cos what this equation's really saying right is that farmers expect price prevailing in T minus one alright to prevails in S T right so that's what we're , right, in their ex their expectation of prices in T, right are based on er current prices in sort of T minus one okay and that, that is what we would call erm expectations alright. But what we're going to do, that's gonna be a special case in a more general formulation that we're going to look at now which is the adapted expectation hypothesis. Right this basically it's too simplistic, right we know that farmers are more intelligent than the cobweb model suggests that they are, let's try erm increase the sophistication of their, their supply response. But we'll do that using adaptive expectations okay right. All the adaptive expectations model says is that farmers supply, right, S T is some function of the expected price right, erm. When the supply comes onto the market, right so this thing here is the expectation of price in P T, when the supply comes onto the market right and that expectation is formed at T minus one, right so at the beginning of the year farmers make some forecast or some expectation of prices when the crop will come onto the market in T, right and then they form that expectation or that prediction, right, at the beginning of the period, or at the end of the last one, T minus one. right. Let's call that equation one seven er in actual fact what we'll do is that we'll put a random random error term on the end as well just to say that this is, rule is not perfect and there will be some fluctuations around it. Okay Now expect ,farmer's expectations of prices are assumed to be revised, right, each year, farmers revise their own expectations of future prices so that makes some sense. You wouldn't expect them to forecast the same price all the years, right. Now expectations model implies that the revision in expectations, right, year on year alright, is proportional right, to the error last year, right, the difference between actual and forecasted last year right, if they were way out if their forecast was way out for last year, right, they'll revise their expectations for, for the next year okay. So symbolically the expectation at T minus one prices at T minus the expectation of T minus two in prices at T minus one i.e. revision in expectations or how our expectations change from one year to a next is dependent upon gamma into the actual price,T minus one minus farmer's expectations of it okay. So the revision of expectations year on year, alright is some function, alright, proportionate to the er, the difference between their forecast for prices of P T minus one to track it from what actually occurred okay. Now we can just rearrange that expression to get the expectation of prices for the period T, right all we're doing is that we're adding P T minus two, P T minus one to both sides, alright and we'll get gamma into P T minus one erm, plus open brackets mi minus gamma into expectation at T minus two of prices at T minus one okay. So we're just rearranging the first expression, okay, and getting this one right so now we've got er a decision rule to obtain a, farmers will form their expectation of prices say next year, in T right, on the basis of last year's price, last year's actual price and last year's, the expectation of last year's actual price okay. Right,so as you'll probably agree alright, gamma scribble here right, plays an important role in this model and gamma is the co-efficient of expectations, the expectations co-efficient. Now,when gamma equals zero then what does this model imply unde under different conditions?, alright. If gamma equals zero right what happens here? The expectation for next year's exactly the same as what we expected last year, alright just turned, propped out okay. Essentially there are no revisions no revisions in expectations if if gamma equals zero right, this right hand side top here completely disappears and if you wanted t just leave the error turning then then any changes in expectations there's no systematic behaviour. But like I, I omitted that just for simplicity, right. So when gamma equals zero there's no revision to expectation. When gamma equals one what happens now? When gamma equals one this turn here drops out alright, so expected price for next year exactly the same as the current price, T minus one alright. Right. Scribble that and poverty is er that case is called naive expectations alright. Where gamma equals one we have naive expectations so, d'you think that what that implies in the top equation, right the revision to expectations and gamma equals one is the whole of the difference between actual predicted last year okay. So here you have no revision under naive expectations we have four right Now the the closer that our expectations come to gamma, lies to one the more weight farmers attach to last years price relative to prices in T minus two, T minus three, T minus four right. When gamma equals one all the weight is given to last year's price all the weight is given to last year's price okay right, so past history, all past history is ignored apart from the price at T minus one right and the closer that gamma is our expectations co-efficient, closer gamma is to one, the more weight be attached to last year's price, relative to the previous history of prices okay right. If we play about with this expectations model right this is the erm, this describes the expectation of prices in T it can also use the same as a decision rule alright to find out what prices would expectation of prices were, right in in P T minus one, okay T minus one, right here. What we now want in T minus one was, cos that was the actual price what we don't know what was the expectation of prices in T minus one. Well we can use the same decision rule and just change the subscripts by one, so you've got gamma into P T minus two right, plus one minus gamma the expectation of T minus three, prices T minus two okay, and we could substitute right, the right hand side here, right, into the expec , into that expectation up there. We then have to er, determine the expected value of T minus three and the price of T minus two and we then use the same rule substitute it in there, right, we could repeat, repeatedly substitute into the expected value, right in that manner like we did in, in the er,the symmetry between adaptive expectations and partial adjustment type offices . But we just repeat, repeatedly substitute into this unobservable term right. I mean we come out with erm an equation that look like so expected price and T is a function right it's the sum of gamma into one minus gamma into J into P T minus one minus J and J goes to infinity. But we just repeatedly substitute back er for that unobservable expectation right. So again we find out that erm, the expected price in T minus one, sorry in T, is a function of all previous prices all previous prices, okay and it won't surprise you to find out that the weight giving to to treating the historical prices right becomes geometrically in exactly the same way as the adapted, as the partial adjustment er co-efficient or the partial adjustment model implied alright. So the way it's given erm t to previous prices decline geometrically right. Trouble is you've got a bit of a problem at the moment right, if we want to find out what the expected price in T is, right, this derivation tells us that it's a weighted sum of all previous prices right. We won't be able to estimate that, that model right, simply because we don't have all the previous prices alright. We cannot use this expression up here either, because we've got an unobservable variable in there, we've got the expectation of which we don't know alright, we don't know what that is, what number that is through time, so the analysis could reach an impasse here, right, this,nice little theory,nice hypothesis about how people form expectations but it it's not tractable, it's intractable, right we can't use it. However we can apply something that will trick known as the quoick transformation right, that will enable us right, to convert what is an infinite stream of previous prices into something that we can estimate, right, just has a very few number of parameters right. Now right, those parameters that we that we will learn will get this model in the end which contains only observable variables, only those, so it will contain prices, actual prices and actual supply alright. There's no ex expectations in there, no unobservables. Now, what I was gonna do now was go through this quoick transformation right, you're not gonna be asked t to produce it in an exam or anything like that, but the reason why I'm doing it now is that you will need it for your er, your Q M exam not er your exam, your project right, cos there is a similar applicat , it's quite a commonly used tool you'll find er, where wherever we have a, erm, an expression with an infinite number of erm possibilities or an in infinite number of arguments. So you can go, go to sleep if you want for the next minute to erm but because you will need to know this quoick transformation for your Q M project, you do want, may just want to note it down. So this is a digression just gonna whizz through it very quickly, we don't really need to er,spend much time on it. Let's think of the general model right. Y T alright, is a of constant alpha plus beta into erm X T plus lander X T Y is one that's lander squared, X T minus two plus lander cubed, X T minus three and so on and so on into infinity. Alright, so let's call that equation er A okay. Right, similarly at time T minus one we have Y, Y T minus one equals alpha plus beta X T minus one plus lander plus lander X T minus two, plus lander squared X T minus three plus X T minus four infinity again we call that B and that's just the same equation but we just erm shifted the subscripts and right, this explains why in T, this ex explains why in T minus one right, all the subscripts have just been just been changed. Right, well if we multiply both sides, we multiply both sides of B right, by this co-efficient lander alright, we get right,lander by T minus one,lander erm right then what we do is that we get beta into lander X T minus one plus lander squared, X T minus two lander cubed, X T minus three,and lander to four X T minus four and so on and so s so on until infinity right. No notice, right with these are exactly the same as those now alright so what we're going to do is we're going to subtract right, if we subtract from a, subtract b from a all those terms that run off into infinity, we're gonna drop out, okay. Alright, so if we tr subtract B from A everything drops out apart from the following, so you have Y T minus lander Y T minus one plus B minus A, right equals alpha into Y minus lander plus beta X T okay. If you just rearrange that in terms of Y T we get so we just add Y T minus one to both sides and so we get Y T into alpha into one minus plus beta X T plus lander Y T minus one right, that's it. Okay. So you too would assume quoick transformation we've got a geometric progression in here that goes off to infinity alright which is equivalent to that, that little thing alright, we've got three parameters here this one, that one and that one, alright, so we converted what is an infinite stream into a finite stream using this er,quoick transformation. Right,so that's the digression over and done with it's pretty fascinating stuff okay, you'll you'll need that in the in erm in your Q M project if you have to apply one to a particular problem. Anyway so applying the quoick transformation back to er supply response, we apply this quoick transformation to equation seven alright. We get the following supply response model right, apply that quoick transformation to seven, yields S T equals alpha gamma plus beta gamma P T minus one plus, open brackets, one minus gamma, close brackets, beta S T minus one alright, plus U T minus open brackets, one minus gamma U T minus one okay. Right, so this is if we incorporate expectations in our model of supply response alright, so instead of saying that the the desired level of supply instead of saying that, we say it's actually this right, if we actually incorporate expectations specifically alright, then we get a supply response model alright, like this and our hypothesis, y'know cos we don't know how expectations are formed, right, economics can't tell us anything about how expectations are formed are they rational, are they naive, are they adaptive, who knows, nobody knows alright. But nevertheless it seems like a reasonable hypothesis the that that er expectations about future prices are revised in proportion, er the errors in expectations in the previous period, alright. If we incorporate that hypothesis we get a supply response model of that form right, notice that we've only got observable variables, S T, P T minus one, S T minus one, we've only got observable variables in there alright. So we can estimate this model although we've got a couple of problems that we'll come to later on, but nevertheless it's essentially estimatable. Now the reason why we've gone through all these horrible equations right, and looked at the adaptive expectations model and the partial adjustment model is because both of these two things are incorporated into single res erm a single supply response model that was developed by Nerlove Nur Nerlove in nineteen fifty eight old model but very very popular, right. This Nerlove supply response model that incorporates both adaptive expectations and the partial adjustment hypothesis alright, has been applied so that five hundred, right, different commodities throughout the world right. So it's the, the most widely used supply response model in the entire universe, alright, and as a result of it's popularity you have to learn it as well. Right, as you can imagine things might get a little bit nasty, we're incorporating two er, two hypothesis and although very simple produce algebra that er, that's a bit nasty. But never mind never mind. Now this Nerlove supply response model alright was introduced by Mark Nerlove in nineteen fifty eight right in a heart breaking book called the dynamics right of supply right erm estimation of farmers response to price okay. John Watkins University Press I think there's a copy in the library erm, you may want to have a little look at it, but so what we're going do is we incorporate both these two hypothesis into a model supply response okay. We'll er do these just crack handle and then we'll show what information we can obtain alright from from this model and there's an example on a sheet of paper just to er run it home right. Okay. Let's start, start from the top let's suppose that the desired level of output right, in any period S star T right, is simply a function of the expected value of the price so we're using our par our well that's just a general, a general statement right. Decide supply you subfunction beta of expected prices, right in T, supply in T is based on the expectation of what the price will be, in T right. How are expectations formulated, right, it says nothing about how expectations are formulated just says that private supply will be dependent upon expected prices alright. Well let's assume deducted expectations model is a reasonable model of expectations formation right call that equation number one right, so our adaptive expectations model is E T minus one, so that's E T right, minus E T minus two into P T minus one right, so that equals gamma into P T minus one, minus E T minus two P T minus one right so that's the same expression as we had before, right that's the our ad our adapted expectations model, that's, that's how we're assuming that expectations are generated right, or revised right so, we're incorporating expectations into this model but we also want to incorporate the fact that farmers take some time to respond to changes in price alright. Adjustment is not complete, it's partial alright, so we're going to say that supply adjusts in the following manner, right, according to the partial adjustment hypothesis alright, so changes in actual supply alright, will be delta of the difference between the desired level of output for T, right and the actual level of input T minus one alright, plus er alright, so that was just our partial adjustment model that we looked at last week, right, we'll call that equation three okay right. What we're going to do now is combine both of these hypotheses right into our supply response model, alright and we come out with the following. Now, it may look a little nasty but don't worry it simplifies very easily. So we combine those two hypothes hypotheses right, we get S T equals alpha delta gamma plus open brackets open the second set of brackets one minus delta close brackets open brackets, one minus gamma close brackets into S T minus one minus open brackets, one minus delta one minus gamma into S T minus two right,plus beta, delta, gamma into P T minus one plus E T minus open brackets, one minus gamma times E T minus one, right. U T was just that random error term that we looked at. Right. Now, looks pretty horrendous alright, but if we bum data on S T, S T minus one, S T minus two and P T minus one, all actual variables, if we bung those into the microfit and ask them to form the regression, it would do, right, it would just you'd get S T equals A plus B that's T minus one plus C A T minus two plus D A T minus one alright, and B T So before we we'll call that equation four right, so although it looks nasty alright it's fairly straightforward, it's all, all we're doing is, we'd be asking the computer to regress S T on constant like how you would yourself T minus one to like values T minus two and like prices okay. Right. So it would actually be very straightforward to do this, although not a couple of problems in this model that we ought to just say something about alright, the specification of four does present a couple of problems right. The first thing and these are statistical problems that we won't spend too much time on them but just make sure they are our error term in this equation, right, is no longer a random error term it's dependent on it's value in the previous period right, cos B T actually represents U T minus sumfunction of E T minus one right. So first problem is one of serial correlation in this model right, if we estimated this model and things were as we thought they were this hypothes , these hypotheses were working and farmers were behaving erm, as we thought they might do, right, this model will automatically use serial correlation right. So if you didn't get serial correlation and you estimated a model like this you'd be a bit curious and wonder why right. Secondly,we've got erm model , we've got a dependent variable a dependent variable, right, S T minus one right, will be correlated with the error term, right, so the dependent variable will be correlated with the errors alright. Because S T minus one right will be contained in the information up here. Right. Now because of these two problems we violate er a couple of assumptions of ordinary lease squares right, and as a result, the upshot of this is that we get biased estimates of our parameters A B C and D,right, they will be biased and also they won't have the minimum variants property right, they won't be the best estimators you, the statistics you talk about blue estimates, best linear and biased alright. So if for any one of those parameters, let's just say B right, let's just say that's the true distribution of the parameter B what you'll you estimate O L S and you'll get alright, you'll get biased estimates, this is what you would get from the computer, alright so we'd be biased cos the, the true value is over here but not only that, is that, instead of having a nice peak distribution, distribution would be quite flat, alright we'd we wouldn't have the minimum variants property alright. So that there is a measure of the bias and the flat distribution is a measure of er erm the fact that we don't have an estimator that's got this minimum variants property right. So effectively what would happen all our T ratios right would be very small cos the standard area would be very large, but don't worry too much about these ecometric problems what I want you to do is to appreciate that estimating a supply response model right, can cause problems unless we do something about it. Right, I think we'll, we'll leave it there for today, we'll finish off er this tomorrow. No, no Er, just to appreciate, erm what, what what it comprises, yes, so adaptive expectations what does that imply partial adjustment, what does that imply. What can we get out of it and we'll do that tomorrow, we'll derive y'know estimates of expectations, co-efficients and and elasticities and it's those sorts of things that you might be asked to in an exam but, you won't need to derive anything in your exams Erm,I haven't, probably better to see Is he in there now? He should be there now, yes he should. Right, so I'll see you all on er, on Wednesday. Apart from that they could've sat on a wall and done exactly the same thing, she was in the street. She was going ment she's mental. When you moving then? Not till week. First week Yeah well no I just wanna, it's, it's not is it, I mean Well is it all decorated in there now or No it's all done in there but it's just gotta be decorated and like clean and extension or kitchen or I've never seen, do you know the bathroom, right? Well it's the tiniest toilet I've ever seen in my life. It's no it's not a, it's not a normal like, it's not a I don't think I've ever seen the bathroom there. an average size er well it was all there right and it was all tiled right, very plain, yellow and black wasn't it? I couldn't handle it, I thought no he's gonna make me make do with this I thought, and then he's and I did didn't I?he'd gone along and Well what is the what colour's the toilet ? It's just a white like normal, like a normal like if it was a council house. Yeah but it's old fashioned bathroom suite isn't it? Yes but, yeah but it's a little little toilet, he won't get his arse on there I could just about get mine on it. And the bath It's real old fashioned cos you know the flush, when you pull a flush water comes up about that far from the top. Yeah you've got there's some If you had a shit in it your arse was nearly in the water like. Serious. It's a little tiny toilet. It's a bidet as well then? Yeah. It's a bidet as well. Yeah, posh. I dunno I'm not having that. I want one of those corner ones anyway. Is it a big bathroom then, or? No. It will be once the place, cos that's where the extension's going, right across there. Mine's tiny my bathroom is. I've got a small bathroom small You've got the toilet, sink and the bath. You don't really need a big bathroom do you? Oh I dunno, if you see a big bathroom it's nice. It's nice to have a big bathroom It is lovely, oh it would be nice. Yeah. It is if you see it. It's lovely like to have plenty of cupboard space for all your towels and all that. Like in mine I've got a cur er a wicker unit thing that I stack towels on and whatever right? But you've got that, the toilet and the bath and that's it That's me Lyn mine's exactly the same. You just cannot get nothing else Mm in there. Well most of them are aren't they? And They're basic. Gonna have a shower, most of them have a bath and that's it. in our house if one of you's in the bathroom in the bath like if Russell's in the bath I go and sit on the toilet and talk to him and the dog's in there as well and you can't move. No well that's like we are, Gordon's in the shower, I'm on the toilet, the kids are both in the bloody sh in the bathroom with us. You can't go nowhere man. No I know. We er well I mean there's only the two of us Don't do that! Not fair is it? No it isn't. Well I He do wait now until he gets up and he gets in the bed. Who? Sean doesn't he? And I've never seen a photograph, you a little boy. Oh no? No! Well just look at Hayley Who's he look like ? just look at Hayley. He's not, he's I can't, he's, I don't think he's like me. He He is Oh expressions he got of mine Oh He's wild. he's he's hard, he's had me crying, he's And I have smacked him really hard when he'd nearly had me crying right? Don't hurt. Well He don't. Sometimes he does but y get on well. bu but he's he's erm active, He's like you Hayley he is. Oh he's exactly like me. Steve, I always said to Steven if we have a kid I said I hope it looks like me I said but I hope it got your temperament come out exactly wrong. He got my eyes, not my colouring but he's fairly blinky isn't he, watching the telly, well I am anyway and I love them when they're naughty, I do I love them. Oh he's a bastard! I do, I love them, except my nephew he's ruined right and he's been, all this week he's Oh it's my fault he's like he is. and he wasn't gonna go football tomorrow but he's gotta go cos if he don't go he's letting the team go because things he was saying to my mother last week, well you wouldn't believe it. Honest to God when he comes out with it he's disgusting. With Sean now like what he do, he says fuck and he goes Yeah. And he will say erm he won't say he comes up and he says you're nothing but a ba stard and I say, what! He says ba he says I didn't say it, says I didn't say the word and then he sa he calls my niece he'll say to her, he she's getting boobs now like, she's twelve, and he goes Ah! It's it's horrible at that age, innit? let's grab your tits,right yeah and he really Ah! takes the mick out of her and I started him I bet she's ever so embarrassed. Yeah. I started it cos I started teasing her cos she's big chested for her age, right, she's gonna follow my sister cos my sister's got big boobs and I started, but of course he just carries it on and on and on now. Well I dunno who I followed. He goes and on and on and on about it now. I dunno where I got it from, it's from erm Look at her mam, she's got a bra on ain't she, and he's oh! the ol the sisters innit? It's gotta be. What was it like in Pill pill is that. Oh I said She you bastard . I said I said oh I said I can't wait to lose this guts and those two were sitting there while I dressed and I said oh my guts and oh how I hate them, I said but if I lost them I mean Your boobs would look too big. Oh God they'd look macha I'd have to strap them under my arms! No but the trouble is when I go on a diet the first place I I don't lost it off my boobs. lost it is my boobs. I haven't got big boobs though. Oh in saying that, yeah when I when I had the baby The first place I lose it is my bust. I lost about four inches And I can't afford to lose it there. so that wasn't so bad. I haven't got a very big bust, I haven't got a small bust but I haven't got an ultra big bust. Oh I hate them I do. I think if I had a bigger bust my guts wouldn't look so big. First thing a man looks at doesn't he? He doesn't look at your face they're like that looking at her, well I hate that. You should see this piece that co this, this girl that comes into the long black hair she goes, she got like and she's she's small right, and s really skinny and she got massive like that and they all take the piss out of her Ah! she always goes out the pub crying. Well Russell was saying in work like right Oh that's terrible innit? Ah yeah! They're massive though, they're really huge But there again if she's trying her they've got a girl that works there right and her name her name is Linda and they run this big machine and it's really long and he said if she's at the top machine he can't see down the other end of the machine cos her boobs are in the way and he's got I said you don't ask her can sh he said yeah well he said I've gotta ask her can she move out the way, he said if she sits on the table her boobs are resting on the table, I said oh I'd crack up. He said me and the boys we're standing all day watching her when she's bending down putting box in a sack Dirty c cows. though haven't you? Dirty bastards men are. Aye I suppose you have gotta look. As long as you don't touch I suppose. It's horrible window shopping innit? Gordon says it's not natural if you don't erm if you don't look. Oh I get, I get As long as he don't touch. Oh I don't know. Well come off it Hayley, if there was a man now bloody sitting there with his bloody With a massive knob down to his leg one ball hanging out like like I mean you couldn't help looking at it all the time Oh no it wouldn't turn me on if their bollocks were hanging out No it wouldn't turn me on but you couldn't help looking could you? Now be honest. No but it wouldn't turn me on. No it wouldn't turn me on Well I tell you what I went to see have you seen the Chippendales? Bollocks doesn't turn me on. I went to see the Chippendales well I've never seen anything like it in my life. Oh a big dick, aye. They didn't have big dicks. No crossed conversation going on by here. Well I went to see the Chippendales right and I've never seen there's seventeen Oh I don't call them men I don't. No but they were a on no they're not really but they were absolutely They're not men, rubbish. gorgeous. I've never seen seventeen lovely men in all my life. Oh aye. Where was that? We went to to see them. A gang of us went from the Yeah but I mean they can afford to, it's just like women or It was crazy. they spend most of their time don't they, I mean It was wild. treating their skin and their hair and they they're on show, they've gotta be Well what a bloody er the Officer and the Gentleman, they all come out in these white suits, and I mean they're handsome right? And they had white, the whole lot like, and they stripped off right down to a white G-string, then they turned all the lights off and dropped them and by the time they'd put the lights black on, back on, I can't speak now, they'd had, they had a black one on so they, what they must have had, they well they do, they have loads of them on, they just peel them off like one after another never actually see them naked. I'd love to have a look mind cos I bet they're all, you know, small. Oh I bet they are. Yeah but it's not the size it's what they can do with it innit? Well one of them, there's a bed on the stage right? This is all being taped now but it , no Deb I couldn't handle a little skingy one. Oh no! They had a bed on the stage and they had red satin sheets on it Couldn't with one. and what he'd done to this pillow was no one 's business. I'd've loved to have been that pillow, I really would er things he was doing to this pillow it was Did it turn you on then? When you was watching it like? Oh well I was l oh yeah he was you couldn't cos he was handsome, you couldn't, you couldn't just you know he was wild he was. Things like that don't turn me on see. Well I'd never seen them, I don't say it turned you on but it made you I don't like handsome, handsome I mean it pretty men I don't. Tt I don't. I don't like Well they all look bloody fairies. I don't like men that handsome then that they think this sounds awful bigheaded, they are prettier than me. They love themselves. Oh yeah I know what you mean Do you know what I mean? I've been out with, I've been out with loads but I, they're nowhere like that. right, and I mean they, they're talking to you right and all the time they're like this themselves like. Oh I fucking I tell you what do you know a boy from called Dan ? Yes. Well I went out with him once, right, and I fucking hate him cos he always thought he was so lovely that no woman was good enough for him. Mm. Went to that party last week, to that tt remember I said to you know that guy in that farm, Richard?? Oh Do you know him then? Well I don't know him but He's a right pillock. used to have all them er barn dances every . Yeah well i it's a brand new spanking house right. He's got a big well it's a brand new farm What's it like? Do what? Oh it's fab the house is fabulous Mm really it is. Well he, he bought all them fields didn't he? Just bought the farm and But he's, yeah but he's a right prick. He is just But I, I don't know him to talk to he is just a right prick, right? I said to Russell I'll go upstairs and have a look at the bedrooms and I've got this thing that if it's a nice house I'd go and have a look at the bedrooms, he said well why? I said So I said to this Richard, I said excuse me I said but your phone's not working downstairs I said have you got one upstairs? You nosy cow! Yeah! He said yeah, he said it's in my bedroom. So I'm walking up the stairs and he's walking up behind me, and all I can hear is Russell saying watch yourself cos he had his hands on me watch yourself. went to have a look in his bedrooms like and I they're all done out in pine, every bedroom is done out in pine. The old thatch you know, the well it's not, it's like tongue and groove now innit? There was one pink, one cream one blue and white, and that's four bedrooms, they were absolutely gorgeous bedrooms. They were lovely. So I said can I use your phone in that one? But he is a pillock, he's I mean she, Catherine right his cous Russell's cousin she's really pretty, she's rea she's got a lovely skinny figure, everything and he's just a pillock, there's no other word for him. But he got money. Well that's it innit? You can't blame them can you? No. I don't blame her cos he's loaded. Well has she grown to love him cos of his money? Well she hasn't got much choice It can be done. has she? I mean But, yeah, she did have a choice but I mean sh you do with people with money. I don't know, I, I Yeah I suppose so. You do, they gr they you see them in a different light. Well her mother was saying, they got engaged and, you know, there was drinks and her mother was saying oh the wedding's gonna be in February, it's gonna be a quick wedding and all this so I was talking to her, I said Cath I said when are you are getting married then? She said I, she said I'm not getting married. So I think her mother's gonna be in for a bit of a shock because they all think that they're gonna get married so quick, I think she just wanted to get that ring on her finger so she can reap the ackers and I think she's gonna do a runner. Which I don't blame her there again, if he's stupid enough to If he can't see it, aye. I mean a lot of people He had a helicopter in the garden an'all. I said to Russell I'd love to go in that helicopter he said Lyn you're pissed. I said I don't care I'd still go up in it Oh. I would, I'd helicopter was it? Well I take it it must have been, yeah, there was a helicopter in the garden and somebody said he'd flown friends in in the afternoon, so I don't know. God! Rich bastard. But I says how can they make money now, how can they make money out of that? Where's he making it, he must have had money he didn't just buy those fields and make money and have a big house like that. he just bought that field and that, that farm, all, all the barns were there to start with. It was an old house there and that's what she said, it was derelict, they knocked it down and rebuilt the new one. But it was an, a really old decrepit house there. So what work does he do? He's a farmer. But how can he make money like that? Cos they get money off the government don't they, farmers? Because like Oh they should there must have been some money there first. Yeah there had to be, yeah. a farmer a fa how the farmer makes his money, it's all like people going to university and how they get grants well farmers get grants grants Ah well I worked for one didn't I in Farm money like. and they knocked the old farmhouse, they had a house and the farmhouse, they had a farmhouse you know and farm , Chris his name is, Chris and Liz Elizabeth her name is, she's having a baby she's having a baby now, her baby's due in er Oh no I worked for another one but her name's not Liz it's Alison, but I don't like working for her and that's why I've stopped, I said to Sandra I'm not fucking scrubbing for somebody younger than me. No I don't blame you I wouldn't either I'm not doing it. no I wouldn't. Sorry. Cos er San Sandra agreed in the end she said oh I said you can do it on your own, you can have the nine quid if you like yourself I said but I'm not coming with you I said for three hours working for somebody who's twenty five. Well Liz is younger than me, Liz is only twenty one I mean Yeah and she doesn't do any ironing, nothing. No she, she doesn't do a thing I mean to cook a Sunday dinner she doesn't know what it is. I don't mind if they're older and like they've got a profession and all that but I mean Yeah that's it, I mean it's That's just fucking lazy. Russell's two cousins I don't know, I don't know if you know him It's just mm yeah it is and that's what I don't like. erm her father, Russell's cousin's I'm not lazy. father always had a shop on the , Mervyn his name was, it was like a grocery shop Oh yeah Yeah well yeah. Mervyn and Georgina, well it's Alice the er mother and I mean they had two stunning looking girls right, but they've both married, they're both involved with rich farmers. Liz married a farmer from when they got married, just before they got married it was her birthday and he bought her a Porsche. Well I mean One of them must have been , loads of make-up? Yeah! That's it. And the one, the one lives in er Yeah that's it,got a daughter. She doesn't, well that's the one who's just married now to that guy Richard with that big farm. It's not the one that comes They are tarts, they are I'm not being horrible it's not the one who drives but they are. Mm. you know the one who drives that Porsche Porsche yes? used to go with . No, no that's her sister. That's her sister is it? That's her sister, yeah. Well I went to school with Barry and when we all went to a party over and was there, What school did you go? The Gwindy You didn't go there? Yeah I went to Gwindy I did, yeah. Yeah well I was only in Gwindy for three years, then I went to Lewis Girls because I lived this end of I had to go to I loved Gwindy school. And Gordon was in Gwindy school weren't you? Yeah I loved Gwindy school I did. I hated it when I had to leave there school But you, so you know them then? You know the girl well you know th you know Catherine then? Yeah. The one who used to go out with Barry . They just, they were always make-up you know? Have you seen them with their make-up off? Grrr rough they are dogs . Well I haven't seen them with make-up off . Real dogs. Cos we er did a job for once, But that must be awful I al I've always thought for a, a woman who wears really loads of make-up Well and then they sleep with a fella right, honestly And they wake up and it's terrible. Well I mean that fella must And they look around and think tt oh God. Liz the one who's married to the farmer from right? The night before she got married we went over the house to take all her presents over Mm? Chris , is that his name? He's er like a landscape gardener. He's got a big farm in but he's like a land but Barry is a landscape gardener as well isn't he? a coalman, a landscape gardener you name it. Yeah he does anything doesn't he? Yeah. But erm I went to see Liz the night before she got married and actually she had no make-up on right but she looked prettier without it, like Catherine I should imagine Catherine does look a right tart. That's nice. I got it from my mother for Christmas. It's nice. But Elizabeth's not, Elizabeth is quite a nice person And a necklace and earrings and but Catherine is the one who's really tarty. That's the one who's just got engaged to this guy who's got the big Well that's No put those crisps in your pocket. You going out tomorrow are you? Oh I don't know Do you go out on a Saturday now? No I don't do I? It's not that I t I my friend come cos I do have her little boy now straight from school, she pays for him to have a taxi from Endrodenny down to my house and I do have him until she finishes work and she said oh coming out tomorrow? I said oh yeah! I mean I wouldn't've minded if she said come up the house like and she mentioned Cardiff but I've gone so fat I don't wanna go! Oh don't be so stupid woman . Honestly that's what I think, I just don't wanna You always look smart Yes she does. I, yeah but I d I no I, I'm fat and I don't wanna go. And that's how I feel. Cos then she said oh Sandra are you coming? I thought no there's Alison like that, there's Sandra like that I thought oh no. Can't handle it. I've got to find my keys now to get in. I don't know, I'll see how I feel. Oh well How is Donna getting on anyway these days? I haven't seen her for bloody ages. Oh she's alright. She courting now? No she wanna bloody leave it alone for a bit, I mean she's a disaster man! Fucking disaster. Why what's she do? What don't she do. Ah she's Lyn she's er got it all wrong I think, she thinks she wins men's affections like by sleeping with them all. Oh. She's just, that's just pulling their mind you I did say to her the last straw was Christmas day, can you imagine like, I mean me and him didn't have to, I didn't have to stay in and cook dinner, I done it cos she was there we'd all be together, she didn't fucking come home. Where'd she go then? Slept with this boy down this place, she woke up she didn't even know where she was. Well that's, you know come on! Well where was she then? In some hotel somewhere? No in a house in she couldn't even remember, she got so pissed up Christmas morning, she missed Christmas dinner I said come home and have Christmas dinner We could've gone round my mother's dinner. Yeah. But we said oh we'll stay cos Donna'll be on her own Yeah. And you you couldn't go down his mother's and leave Donna like can you? She didn't come home anyway. Mind you I was glad cos I got hell of a temper that I kept myself alright cos I was gonna swing for her like. I don't like Christmas dinner anyway. And we sat there, it was boring wasn't it? Me, him and the baby like. Yeah but you've gotta do it haven't you? I always I hate it. enjoy Christmas dinner I do. Oh I hate it, anyway I, I Oh I love it I do. I hate veg cos, since Donna she said oh just try it, my mother ne never made me eat it like. I think it's foul. Oh I always enjoy a Christmas dinner me. Oh I like sprouts and Roast parsnips and sprouts. Brussel sprouts! Urgh! Well that's why now I'm glad when I'm come on this diet that I can fill his Plate with veg. plate plate with loads of veg can't I? And he do like it so it, it's not so bad then. But she come home Christmas night then didn't she? No cos we was my friend Pat said to me oh she said, cos everyone have always come up to my house Christmas night, I've always had the mess and that, she said oh she said, cos we've got a house now come down to me, I said oh great, I can clean up and every Boxing morning it's always been the same hangover, fucking Yeah, yeah it's terrible innit? clean up all the shit. And it was great, we went down there and she, and Donna come you know? That was great so we went down there didn't we? And er Donna walked in about nine-ish wasn't it? Half past nine Something like that. She didn't ? She, no she, cos she'd s what, he'd done his business pel pissed off and left her in this house and she didn't even know. Ooh! Whose house was it? His friend's, but I mean she couldn't even remember nothing about it. She said she woke up, well this girl woked her up, his sister Oh that's terrible innit? So I said it was in Penrhos oh it's a nice place,, I know when she told me and she said yeah, and she said erm she said they weren't so bad to me she said when I told them who I was living with. She said I live with Hayley. you live with Hayley do you? Oh and they said oh well you'd better go now She didn't even know who he was then? She just went and Oh she knew the bloke, she'd be she'd been out with him a few times before right, he's, he's not a bad bloke but like I said like I said erm but he's respect for her I said to her No, I mean the first the first night sh we run her down to meet him right, me and him, I said oh go on Donna, said he's a nice bloke, he's not nice looking in fact he's nothing, you know, nice looking at all but he's a nice bloke, he got a, you know, bit of money and all that. I said well just tr I said you know it's a couple of nights out and that. Gets up in the morning I sees this pair of red shoes, I thought oh you stupid cow. Not only that she's bringing them back to my house, you know what I mean? Not Penrhos like, they're all like that. Yeah but you don't need that anyway do you? You No. Well that's it, it's when we moved down to the house Yeah. I, I don't wanna chuck her out or nothing. you can't really see But she's making and they pay rent and it's their own room and she can do what she likes in that own room. But there again it's your four walls innit? Well this is it innit? But I mean I can't say to her like, chuck her out, but I mean she's making no effort to save. For a start, right, erm all her clothes then right and I mean loads of them are ones they're really horrible like but she just hangs them here, I thought well you can't wear them, you know, all horrible, you don't wear them fold them, put them away cos when I ironed all my clothes and they were mach squashed, and like all his clothes there's a wardrobe in the wall and a double one a and the three of us can hang clothes in there. Oh and plus she was wearing all mine. You know she's as good as gold and all that but I mean Yeah but it comes to a point sometimes, I mean I even noticed then like when they're wearing all your clothes right? And I don't go out that much, but then she wears them to the garage, to work! I mean I go off cleaning in a pair of tracksuit bottoms and her er Well you don't wear good clothes to work. No! No. But then she start putting my erm blouses on like, cos she probably seen somebody come in nice thinking oh dress up tomorrow and then I, in case he comes in and I used to think shit that had been in the wardrobe, alright I don't wear them but I mean they're still nice Yeah. int they you know? Tt and er I mean the I don't think I could handle somebody living with me like that. and the thing is Lyn the thing that er used to piss me off was she used to wear my knickers and I can't stand that. I, I hate it. Oh I no I wouldn't like that. Oh I wouldn't like that either. No. No. And I hate it, and no matter what I done Oh that's a cheek though, going in your drawer for your knickers. Hasn't she got any of her own? Ah well well no well she had but they're all and horrible. And I mean he'll tell you right So she's going somewhere nice, she'll go in your drawer when I die for a pair of nice pair of kni knickers. nice knickers. Oh I'd pr I wouldn't have that, I'm sorry. Oh I'd crack her. I wouldn't have that at all. And I mean a point when I was with her, right? I'd always buy like, I always have done, buy two pair of knickers or two pairs of knickers a week, I always have done right? And er she'd say erm tt what do you want all those knickers for? I'd say well as time goes on you throw old ones out don't you? Out, yeah I do as well. Yeah. So I mean in the wash You go through your drawer and you sort the old ones out and you think oh right er And she used to say like what you chucking them out for! And I used to say oh they're gone. Oh I'll have them! And I used to say ooh like, you know, but then then I'd think I used to see like, I used to say, well I said to you didn't I? If you get in the bath, I always do it right, take your knickers off I wash them, put them on the radiator. I used to do that, I used to get up in the morning and they were fucking gone, she had them on her fucking arse. Oh never! Oh my God! Do you like that colour? It's alright, yeah. Ah I see, I'm going mum. The sides have Good boy. the sides have erm Good boy! Two pockets. Well leave it on then for goodness sake. use a bloody tape up. Like this it was is it? Yeah. There it is,that's a bottom look. Try that one on then Gordon. this now. Yes. What do you do on that? Well whatever you see there look, you've gotta copy all the Fs across there, all the Fs is across there, all the T then you copy happy all along there look Mm. It's learning how to write Sean. What are you making Kirsty? What are you making Kirst? Summer bargains you just What do you ? aqua. Oh I I'm making And try and tie it inside now like I said, see the tassels inside? You've gotta pull it up look from the waist that's it Mum I'm slipping. What do you mean you're slipping? This pen ain't any good, it's slipping. What's slipping? That rubber part thing? Well every t I, I I I can't hold it tidy, it hurts my hand. Well take it off there then, you haven't gotta write with that. What's it for? Well it's for younger children I suppose, like Kirsty, to learn, to show them how to hold a pencil tidy. Put it straight up the front then. got a zip . Get up! Yeah? Nothing wrong with that. I dunno whether I prefer the green, I don't know. Go and have a look in the mirror upstairs Gordon, you're better off. In my room . up bed. Yeah. If you don't want it Kirsty'll have it cos Kirsty wants don't you Kirst? Kirsty always wants Kirsty always has something. Well you just said you didn't want it! I said I do want it but I don't like the game. Well that's a bit simple Irish Sean, you either want it or you don't want it. It helps you to r learn to write tidy. Oh I learned. Trouble is you're too lazy. You're too lazy to be bothered. I'm lazy That's the trouble. What are you making Kirst? Making it purple? No I'm taking them, that out. Thirty five pounds this is Taking it back out. these coats are, thirty five ninety nine. Pardon? Have you got a ? Go over there and get the tea towel off the floor This one? Kirsty make sure you put all them back in there tidy please. tell you a true story, right,tell you a story there's nobody you've ever seen and that's one thing that Right well I never have either. Gospel truth, gospel truth I talked to I er wrote to them yeah, and I told them I don't want that that's out that is. Lovebites are out. Mm. I mean that. That is one thing I, I, I don't know why I just lovebites out. I don't like lovebites though, I always think about cancer I do, when you have lovebites, because you're sucking the blood like The blood an'all, you're drawing all the blood to the surface. Well it's not doing any good though is it, be honest. I don't think it is. But I don't I don't think it affects You don't think at the time though sometimes do you? I don't think so don't think so. I don't think it affects Now it'll be on my mind now Well I don't think Oh I always think about that. I don't think, I honestly don't think that, I don't think it's, it affect in any way but it's, it's just something that I I don't like it's just something that er Do you know I'd feel embarr after eight years of being married right this year and if Russell done that to me now I feel embarrassed in front of my mother, now, and then I've been married Yeah. I would as well though. Well I would, I wouldn't like it. I would as well because you know what you've been doing. Yeah, I wouldn't like it. I mean they know you do it anyway but Mm mm yeah. Yeah but I wouldn't like it. That's bloody nonsense. to actually see them on your neck. That's nonsense! Ah! Ah no! And I wouldn't do it to Russell when Russell's going to his mother's because I'd No I, I die of embarrassment I would. Aye . I'd say I didn't do it. You wouldn't would you? Would you honest? Yeah I'd say I didn't do it, I'd say I didn't do it. I would I'd say I didn't do it . That's t t tell me something don't do you think your mother and father don't do it now then? Well no I don't say that Oh I don't like to think of them doing it now like. but I, I No I Yeah but she, no but look, but seriously No I know. Oh no. do you think that they don't do it like? Well they're bound to aren't they? I think they do it once a month perhaps. Hey how do you know they don't do it every night ? They cut, cut the afternoons out . No but we joke but, but being honest you, you've gotta look at life man. Yeah I know but that's not the point is it? It doesn't matter my sweetheart. I mean what's with respect, what's your mum and dad now? Fifty four, fifty five? Aye my mum's fifty five, my dad's Well that's sixty two. Dad's sixty two? No he's not. No he's not! My dad's sixty one. Is he? I didn't realize Peter was that age. Superb. I said fifty four, fifty five I d I think my mum's older than that as well, I think my mum's older, I don't know, Tom I honestly don't know how old they are. N no but alright alright I don't think of things forget about it but it doesn't matter mind. If she, your sex, your sex life doesn't, it doesn't go well it doesn't. No I know that but I still wouldn't like my mother to see It doesn't go. my neck covered in lovebites. Or my father. But I mean if I see if I see my daughter I, I go do you know what I say to her? Christ you had a tight shirt on last night, and that's how I do, that's how I just say to her. Well I do man, for Christ sake man. I mean I, I tell you straight I talks to my girls Yeah well I do, I don't, it's not that I don't talk to them about it but I mean I'm pretty open with my mother and father but I still wouldn't like my mother to see big lovebites all over my neck, I don't think it's I don't think it looks nice anyway. No I don't. Tell you what it does, it, it says something I, I never in, in my time er like I, I, I've never wanted lovebites like. I can't say I've never had them cos I have, but I Gordon don't like them I hadn't thought about it at the time I think once he had one off me on his neck and erm he went mad and he was trying to cover it up and that cos I mean over the club, and he goes there on a Saturday afternoon, he gets some stick over there. You know what the boys are like innit? Yeah. I do but I mean that's alright isn't it? But not only that he just don't like having them anyway. There's nothing there's nothing wrong with them. No I know that but I mean Did, did you conceive? Tom I'm going back years ago now. I know that darling, I was, alright my sweetheart. Perhaps I did! I done it to I done it to Russell one night messing around and he told the girls in work I'd been away for the weekend and he'd had somebody else there honest to God he did! Well. It's a good job I know him. Cos they were all taking the mick out of him and he said oh she didn't do it he said she was away for the weekend, I had somebody else there . No, no Deb. You sure? Mm. What? Yes we're fine now. That door's Goodnight. locked innit? That's all done love. Oh lovely, thanks. Ta-ta Goodnight. Ta-ta Tom. Goodnight. Don't lose track keep track cos I tell you what I was I gotta be honest with you I'm a bit bashful now if you want me let me know. I tell you something else as well, if you want me to take you out any time you want me to take you out and, and I mean this honestly if you don't want sex you won't have to have it Oh! Oh thanks Tom. Goodnight. Ta-ta Tom. Goodnight. Goodnight, God bless. Goodnight. Ta-ta. It's still on. Turn it off now. N no leave it on I gotta use the bloody tapes up. Oh I couldn't use it up with the kids you know. Ooh! Ooh you've got him saying that. It's , they don't know who he is. But we've all been saying goodnight Tom. Aye but they don't know what Tom is, it could be Tom, Dick or bloody Harry. Couldn't it ? Ooh God. Hayley you're awful quiet tonight love. Oh I tell y I know I, I'm not well myself, I'm not well You're not yourself. Is she Lyn she's not herself is she? Yeah I'm not and I tell you honest it's, it is frightening me a bit. Why, what's the matter? She's got these pains in her back. Terrible Turn this off I'm not having this. I'm just Leave it on you dopey cow. Oh no, stop it. Nobody knows who we, who we are man for Christ sake. What, you've only had them since you started taking those tablets? I've never had these pains before. Like that. And they're in your back? But I think it must be , I got up when he went to work, half past seven and I haven't sat down I haven't even sat down then to eat because I You know what I had haven't sat down since half past seven What you do is, cos this morning. I, right when I took them, I was taking And I can't stop working. I used to take them every day and I was like that right, and then what I used to do on a Sunday I wouldn't take one cos I used to think right I like my Sunday dinner and I will never give up my Sunday dinner when I'm dieting right Oh no. I'll always have my Sunday dinner Oh I tell you what so on a Sunday I used to say right I'm not gonna take my tablets today because it's a waste of a tablet if you're gonna eat like that, and on a Sunday I used to be absolutely exhausted because you take them all the time and they keep you going and then when you stop taking them they've just, you wind down When you stop taking them altogether now do you mean? and I yeah I went two months and he give me right, they're called they're yellow like round tablets they are, like an aspirin but they're yellow right? Yeah. He give me them, I took them for three days, right, I didn't come down for a fortnight and Russell'll tell you that, I was high as a kite. Even my heart was racing and I was frightened This is what I'm getting all the time yeah. Your heart's racing as well is it? And when I'm sleeping right Your heart's going boom boom boom faster? Yeah and has palpitati funny, and not only that right, my eyes seem as if they're going like that. Yeah, I Terrible. I can't sleep. you, honestly I wouldn't take them Hayle. Stop them. Oh Hayley not doing you no good love. They're not doing any good. Surely to God you can lose it some other way than bloody doing that? Come to slimming club with me on Tuesday. It's no good Lyn, no, what I'll do is is exercise. I enjoy it, I always used to run. But honestly this slimming club I go to, honestly it's really good. I mean I lost weight on it last year. You've got thin legs, it's only here Hayle you've gotta lose it. She, exactly Yeah. I'm, I'm like that. I'm all look, that's all fat. I haven't got fat legs really, I mean I put stockings on and a short skirt and I put something long on and from the back Russell said you look skinny he says, when you turn round and you see that Yeah. Yeah. We've all got that though Lyn, I mean come off it. it's all, I'm all, I'm all here. Yeah but not on That's not fat! Yeah but to er you haven't though Deb. Mine is and it's lazy fat, that's what it is. Yeah. But it's not only that, I'm not lazy or nothing Sit ups you want to do. it's the exercise I should do. Yeah but it's so boring exercising. I haven't exercise like cos I haven't I haven't hardly I've just er doing everything like, and I've been working hard but Yeah but you're on cloud nine. Yeah I am. And when I took those I didn't come down for a, and that frightened me, I said to Russell I will never ever take speed because it's if, I was er we were in the pub right on a Sunday morning and I was there but I wasn't there, I was somewhere else. And people were just saying to me what's the matter? I've taken speed as powder right and erm it had an effect like these ones. It's a thirty have a look on the bottle if they're thirty Thirty mils yeah. They're thirty mils, they're the strongest ones see. Yeah. You can get twenty five. Get fifteen too isn't there, sometimes you can Yeah. You can get erm a red and a grey one I think that's the fifteen, then you can get a yellow and a grey one, that's the twenty five. And the all yellow ones are the thirty. Are the thirty. Yeah. Perhaps I'm going a bit too strong see. Cos I mean for someone like me, I was saying that like, before I used to say to you I wouldn't eat all day, right? But then, when I le left you and went to work I'd eat those pasties and crisps and then perhaps I'm still hungry, sometimes I'd go and have a Chinese all at the wrong time, that's what all that is innit? When I lost And then lying on it. when I lost my weight with slimming we were try I was losing two pounds a week and I weren't starving, I was still drinking and it come off and I lost, I lost about I think it was about eighteen pounds, it was over a stone. I s I was still only down to sort of eleven stone, but if I get to like ten stone Yeah. something but I'm not a small person. I mean like you're quite small framed aren't you so, if you went up to ten stone you'd look huge Yeah. but ten stone something I used to be eleven stone. and I look quite slim because I'm not a small person. I used to be eleven stone, when I was eighteen, nineteen I was eleven stone Hayle. And that's honest to God. Never well you must've looked big Deb cos you're small. Oh I was massive man I had a double chin an'all. My arms were massive. I don't remem remember you like that. I never remember you like that. No well I wasn't. I moved to from Nelson and that's when I was big. And how did you lose all your weight then? You just lost it? I went on an egg diet with the girls in work Egg diet? I thought Yes. they were fattening. No it wasn't just eggs though it was erm like salads and there was steak, you could have one meal a day, right, but it was eggs for your breakfast, eggs for your dinner, your lunch Now I love eggs but I thought eggs and then it was salad binded you. They do. They do bind you But you'd have to take something to make you but the thing is you can you eat fruit in between see Hayle so you're having you know,you your roughage. Yeah your roughage with that yeah. Oh I see. As well like in between. When I went to slimming I used to get I tell you what I lost a stone and half in two weeks I used to have erm by sticking to that. I'd get up in the morning I'd have my two pieces of wholemeal bread toasted with a scraping of marmalade on, right, and my butter cos I like that. For my dinner then I'd have er jacket potato with tuna then about four o'clock I would have an apple and an orange and maybe a Mars Bar cos right. And then before eight o'clock then I would make myself a big meal, I'd have a, a huge salad I'd do tinned potatoes cos they were, on this diet tinned potatoes aren't fattening Aren't they? No they're not. No so I'd have tinned potatoes I don't like them I don't like I'd have tuna fish, I'd have ham, everything because you can eat as much meat you could sit down and eat cabbage, swedes, runner beans, cauliflower, peas every vegetable That's what I'm doing for him now. But I don't like veg I don't. and that's not counted in your, in your calories, you can just eat that, it's all free so you can eat as much as you like of that. Cos if I was really hungry I used to go upstairs, I'd get all the frozen veg out, I'd cook a bit of everything It's not so bad I'd slam a pork chop under the grill and I'd just eat that. And it used to fill me up and I'd Yeah. that's nothing then, I could eat as much as that as I liked. And bacon's not fattening grilled on this diet, you can eat as much bacon as you like as long as you cut the fat off and grill it. That's on this Slimming World diet is it? It's marvellous yeah, I lost weight on it. What we'll have to do Hayley right, when she starts now she'll have to tell us what she's eating every day I've got a book in the house. Yeah. and then we can do the same. I've got a book in the house. And we can always Well I'll have a new book now when I go, right, and you can have my old one. Thing is it is healthier and I mean this tablet lark now more I'm thinking about it, right Oh Hayley it's not doing you any good at all. it w I, it can't be, I, Hayley I tell you what, have a word with my mother because my mother's done it for years, always taken tablets, and I reckon this is half her problem now cos she's got to her old age she's on the change, and these things have affected her throughout her life now. Cos my mother has taken slimming tablets, I can remember a kid, being a kid and my mother always used to take slimming tablets to lose weight. She's done it all her life and She stopped me in town funny enough erm oh a good couple of weeks ago like, she says to me oh have you heard, cos I was saying about oh we'd seen something in the shop, it was ever so nice, I said oh I'm too fat for that she said ooh have you seen, she must be erm infat you know bloody infatuated with dieting My mother's infatuated with dieting. Yeah. Yeah. Hi. Hiya. No I shouldn't think The girls bought you a bottle each look you can either take them home or you can have one No? Do you want something, a soft drink before you go? No look. Is it cold Never. Freezing. Is it? Absolutely bitter. You don't realize when you're in here you see do you? No and it don't look it does it? No. Mind I've been cold all night and I'm cold now. It's Oh it'll be bloody in the house. Russell home? He's in bed I expect. I You should make him sleep on your side and then when you come in he should move over. I've never seen him like this though, I've never se he hasn't shaved for about four days. That's not like him, he shaves every other day. Why? He's just not well, he's just really not well with this flu Oh. we've had it, went, he went back to the doctors today and she said it could take up to six to eight weeks to get out your system. He hasn't been back to work since Christmas. He'd''ve had really, well this is the he goes back on Monday and he've had a month off been off for a month. How you managing then, money-wise? We're not. Just innit? He'll get sick won't he? The thing is I haven't got a television licence. Oh aye he gets sick but he don't get You should be wondering why Yeah but he'll get tax back won't he? We haven't got a television licence we haven't. I'm just waiting for a man to knock my door and say well, you know, cos you can fined a lot don't you? Got your own telly? Yeah. Where'd you get it from? Asdas years and years ago. Years ago this was when it was Carfours And you've never had a visit? No. Oh perhaps when i when it was Carfour Yeah. Perhaps Why what what ? Well no I just wondered if you've had your own telly and you've just got it private you know, I mean they wouldn't have no records We've had it for years. Well Russell bought it when he was at home in his mother's house. And then we, when we got married we took it to our house. I mean it is a bit, well The only way they check now is if you go hire. About ten years? Yeah. If you've just bought it from a shop and you've had it years Yeah. Anyway now they spot check. Yeah but they can can't they? They can ch they can do you without having your telly on now, they can still If you've got a telly in the house without having a licence. And I mean it's, it's a lot of money innit? and it's without havi without having a telly on. I've got erm the other night, right, and next door And you can stop them from coming in as well if you've got debts like, yeah. Yeah it says, I read the thing and it says I haven't gotta let them in unless they've got a warrant so the first time they come they wouldn't have a warrant, surely, so they're gonna have to go away and get a warrant and in that time then I'd have to get a licence wouldn't I? Well you could answer the door now and you say well I don't know love, I'm only the cleaner, they won't be back. Yeah well that's it. So the other night my, the girl next door to us, her husband does painting and he'd just got himself a new van I said fucking hell I said to him sometimes I said there's a van outside I wanna know who it is , is that still on? Oh no Oh fucking hell! Who turned it off? Dunno it just went click. You bloody liars. Did didn't it Lyn? You swear on there now. You can swear on there! You can say fucking Ooh Ooh. Oh no Deb that's the seat It was me. My mother said erm Christmas Eve wasn't time and a half, it was an ordinary night. Oh But it's still not enough, for heaven's sake. No I know that she said it's not enough. I mean like I said on a Friday we get thirteen seventy five till twelve o'clock. Christmas Eve till half past eleven. I know. So you get paid till half past twelve Christmas Eve look, so it's thirteen seventy five till twelve that we normally get paid on a Friday. Ain't it disgusting? We don't pay enough in the club man. They only pay So you mean Christmas Eve they paid you normal time? Yeah, normal time for Christmas Eve right. I won't work any time Boxing night was time and half and New Year's Eve was time and half. Now I ask you Everywhere else is double time. Well that's it fifty quid last New Year's Eve didn't we? Yeah but you know why don't you? Because they paid us extra because nobody else worked with us, it was only me and you and my mother. So remember the committee said oh we'll pay you extra? That's why. Yeah but there was more of you so the more of you that works they're not gonna pay you are they? That's it. I said d do you know what I, I was the only So she's better off Yeah but how stupid can they be because I mean the less of you are you, I mean you can't serve as many as it's, it's stupid innit? I mean They're not taking as much They're not taking as much No but not only that and people get pissed off don't they? So they buy double usually don't they, well I would. If I thought oh bollocks I'm not standing here again. Yeah but they get served in the end see, by the end of the night they get served don't they, you know? Cos they, you know Yeah but not only that I mean, if they get paid double time everywhere else why should we be any bloody different? They don't get paid double time at the Oh cos it's a con right. On er New Year's Eve. She buys them presents. Oh my God! Ev well I don't know about this year mind but every Christmas I worked there she never paid us double time for anything over Christmas, she was always bought us a present. Christmas Eve And what was it the present? Well one, one year Russell had Was it something good like or? he had aftershave and I had erm perfume I did. Christmas Eve and New Year's Eve are two double time cos he wanted me to work and I wouldn't cos it wasn't double time. Oh. Well do you know, out of all the girls who work New Year's Eve right, I told them on the night, oh I said we'll get about forty pound for tonight won't I, because it's double time and I was the only one who complained about it when I had my pay. Nobody else because, no but I said, I had a shock on the Sunday and that's How much did you have then, time and half? I get thirty pound twenty five pence. For New Year's Eve. Yeah for New Year's Eve. I started at half past six and I worked until two o'clock in the morning. And I got thirty pound twenty five for it. Half past six, half past seven, half past eight, half past nine, half past ten, half past eleven, half past twelve, half past one you're talking seven and a half hours. Seven and a, it's a full shift innit? But not only that I mean it's New Year's Eve, everybody else is bloody getting drunk and enjoying themselves and you're stuck doing the bloody bar. Yeah cos no fucking no one wants to do it do they? Yeah well then next year they'll have no one to do it will they? I'm not doing it next year, I said that. They won't have anybody doing it. No but mother said she's gonna sort it all out before Christmas comes because she said otherwise I'm not gonna get the bar staff to work. Mm. Cos I told her I'm not working. And like, now, it's not fair is it? And I'm not working next year anyway cos I've done it for two years on the run and I'm not doing it next year. I've done it five, this is the first time in five years I've had New Year's Eve off. And I was determined, and your mother was I'd done it for four years on the trot. looking at me as if hey erm and all this like you know she was looking as if In a way I think Gwynn had one too many New Year's Eve. Because Never! honestly now I told her Yeah as long as one No, no listen, listen, listen now right, last year when we both worked Hayley what was it like? The committee were in there, they had all their special seats there, their drinks ready right, and they said right girls, you ready now to start? And all of a sudden they unlock them doors out there and they come running Oh that's true, yeah. in here Pair of us had panic attacks didn't we? I had a panic attack, I told her, I said I'm shaking all over. And I thought if I go from behind this bar now I'll never go back behind it now. So I calmed down see and I was alright after about ten minutes. But this year it was much better because they'd let them all in because it was raining weren't it? So they couldn't leave them all standing outside. Bloody stupid anyway. So when they walked in here it was packed in there and it was full in the bar. Even if they'd let them in let them get their seats and said look the bar is not open. Well that's what they should do every year because do you know what it was much better this year. They do it in the Labour Club, you can go in there Within ten, fifteen right minutes we'd serne served everybody by that bar this year. Now what was it like last year, all night long we slogged didn't we? They let them stood out there in all that rain didn't they? Yeah. I mean in most clubs I mean they come in, they have a game of cards They let you in but the bar's not open. don't they, get their tables and that? They're too fucking old man, the commi you've got all this down and I've just slagged them off. Who? They might use this against us. What are you on about you who's gonna use it against us, the club? I'm paranoid now. You dopey cow. Well she, like I say next year, if they're not paying double time she's gonna get no one to work is she? Well that's why she said she's gotta sort it out The thing is see Betty right I mean Olive by here, she's not is she? And Stan on the end. They d haven't got a clue see have they now Bet? No that's it . You like bacon crisps you That's all bacon . No I tell you why I chucked them is because they're a better make aren't they, K P? I like the Dragon though I do. They're not bad really, they, no but I mean you do get a few damp ones now and again don't you? They go off Oh aye. Have you tried Asda onion rings? And you know what No I haven't Oh they repeat on you don't they? Oh I love them you know Oh I love the Chipsticks I do, the salt and vinegar chipsticks, I love them. Oh what's those ones Oh and I do. Mm. Oh strong as hell. I can have a bloody big bag in front of me watching the telly and eat the whole bag it's Yeah. Salt and vinegar chipsticks. I love them. I do that with those prawn Skips is it? Those prawn things? Oh I, I like them but I prefer the crisp ones. But I ate myself silly on them last night and made myself feel sick so I'll never eat them again now. What's those ones we've got, Skips? And don't you feel guilty after, you sit there and think Yeah, yeah but I, I ate What's that crinkly crisp we've got ? Oh you like them, I'm not fussed on them, you know those big chip potatoes with the, the ridges in erm Crinkly ones. Jackets Oh I know I know them. ones, he likes them, I don't but that's Yeah that's they're too hard for me. They're like a Yeah, and me. Too much like hard work. Well have I got time for another drink an'all? Has she love? Do you mind? aye. I wouldn't mind one either. Well have one I'll have to pay for mine I haven't got any in. What? Now Gordon, will listen to this tape now tomorrow right and he'll say to me I have, I've got three left so you can have one of mine. Ah I'll have one of Hayley's Deb, you can pour this and he'll say to me it's You stupid cow Bet. alright, What you having Lyn? Lyn. , cider please. It's only cos I'm not going out tomorrow night this is. Aren't you? No I haven't been out since Boxing night! wh what are you doing there? Getting packet of crisps. Carry on now, they are for us. I just Yeah you can make me some, I don't know what I, I don't want anything but I dunno all I've eaten in the last week and one day is salads Yeah well that's Oh you're on a diet as well are you? Oh I, well the thing is he I can't cook chips Lyn if I'm doing it, it's not fair is it? No. I mean he got to anyway. So if you diet he's gotta diet? Me and him'd sit and eat from half past six I'm very lucky till we went to bed. I'm very lucky er I don't cook. Russell does all the cooking, I never cook. Does he? and I said right so I had gammon pineapple peas and chips right? I enjoy it though Lyn I do. Well I don't like cooking, I do the washing up mind. I mean I go out I enjoy cooking. I'd cook anything. and clean up the mess after him. He just cooks and Oh I do that as well. Oh I enjoy it though, I've gotta be honest. gone to bed right, say you've gone half past ten, eleven gone to sleep woke up about two starving and gone out and cooked We have,that's how bad, that's why I have to t er have those tablets. What do you do, go downstairs and cook Oh I bed and go to sleep. We wake up and Well we go to bed about half past ten, eleven, go to sleep we wake up We talk about food. she'll go down And then you go down and make food do you? I go down, yeah. No matter what time it is? No and eat chips. two plates packed with stuff right I know we, I've done that. Well what I do is like put it on a tray, right what we do is in the night right and if you'd stayed up late I'd put cheese Do you want anything dad? Soft drink or something or out and crackers out and Then I'll do like, if I've got bread rolls I'll do them and we'll go upstairs, we'll take drinks up with us and we'll eat that, and then the next morning we wake up and the bedroom's stinking of pickles and things like that you know? Disgusting. I mean one Friday I come, I left here about ten to one I went in the house and I went to bed and I was starving and Gordon says oh I'm hungry I, so I went out straight down the stairs, come back up with a bloody big tray cups of teas now when I, after drinking down here, pasties now what I'd taken home what I didn't sell here, crisps, sandwiches and a after I'd ate it I felt so guilty. You couldn't go back to sleep then. I couldn't go back to sleep, but I felt so guilty about what I'd eaten. Ooh I know. Like say last week me and Russell never got up before, oh my mother and father come to the house right and it was quarter past ten and we were still in bed and my father put the milk cos the, my milkman leaves my milk by the gate because, with the dog, he always used to leave the gate open so I used to let the dog out in the morning and the dog would go out so I said don't put the milk by the door, leave it just, put it over the gate cos I like the gate left shut. So that's what he does and my father come in, put the milk by the door, knocked the door and me and Russell were still in bed fast asleep. I mean we'd been up Did they knock you up then? No she left us still. And waking up about a quarter past ten, go downstairs and make tea and toast takes the paper up, I take Freeman's catalogue put the, the wireless on and he's looking through the paper and I'm looking through Freeman's catalogue saying oh this'll look nice in the summer like, yeah yeah I know, and we were in bed . Turn over then and go back to sleep for an hour and thought oh I've gotta get up now the dog's whining to go out, then we get up then when the dog starts whining to go out. God I haven't bloody done that for years. We've done it a I said to Russell, I'm really gonna miss you when you go back to work on Monday I'll have no snuggle in bed in the morning. He goes at half past five and I won't know what to do. W how long have he been off? God he goes early doesn't he? A month. Oh you'll ge start getting fed up now. Aye but I don't see, I don't, I don't mind him, no, you know You don't? So you you don't like really being on your own then ? Well I should say that but when he's at work he works shifts but I I am on Yeah but you're not used to him being home all the time are you Lyn, I mean for a long period of time like. Yeah I'm on my own, like when he's afternoons Like I am. he goes Oh D Deb I tell you what it must be amazing. He been out of work since September the sixth. Because you, you bicker,yo you see Four months now. Yeah I don't say we don't row, I don't say we don't argue and get on each other 's nerves, we do, but when he goes back to work now for a couple of days it'll take me three or four days to settle down into not having him there. Oh y yeah that do, you I mean when he's nights right, I'm on my own, I mean I love it, I have a bath Oh I don't like it when he's nights. I paint my nails, I do what I wa I can do what I wanna do. Like if I sit there painting my nails he'll say what started that? What are you doing that for now? Dog don't like the smell of that like, but how you are Yeah I know. you know, but I'm there on my own I can pot do my hair, do what I wanna do go up the stairs, have a bath, you know, just do what I, drop my clothes where I wanna drop them and everything. But I mean I do get used to being on my own and then like I mean I say he's there like the, the other morni he went down his mother's and he didn't come back till three o'clock so he's not there constantly all the time. No. We can't sleep in the door. Well it's Well it's like open house is it eh? Oh d i er I dunno whether it's Fucking terrible, next door it's not that, it's, it's next door but not only that I mean friends, my friends I mean But it's mostly next door, What they do then, they're in and out are they? It's all borrowing! I couldn't stand that see. I mean I can't in, I like to shut my door, I mean I don't mind people coming to visit me but I couldn't stand people in and out, in and out my house all day, that would crack me up. Well My sister moved from cos of that. I never knew until I mo when I moved to Penrhyn and my mother said you won't like it now she said, she said they make you she said Oh yeah. and when I first moved up there I thought oh yeah, what's happening, yeah. What's going on here, yeah. I don't have it. There was kids in my door It's quiet though where I live though. It's quiet where I live but they're, they're nosy. They know your business even though you think they don't, they do cos I tell you Oh well it's, I think it's like that wherever you live though. Do you know Maggie who works in the paper shop? Glasses? Yeah. She lives next door but one to me Never! My mother and father know when me and Russell have had a row on Saturday night right, before I even my mother knows before we know it if you know what I mean then. Mm. My mother has rung me on a Sunday morning and said oh you had a row last night and I'd say how do you know oh your father went to paper shop this morning. Oh need you ask. One night right Russell always look on the bright side of life bright side of life I was drawing and I read and and I played with toys and I read this game Who'd you play with in school then? and I played with David. Did you? Yeah on the news today bomb went off in London. I got Never! not far from ten Downing Street. Don't. It's ridiculous. Sean will you stop it. Ah ah ah I don't think There's one there. Oh they're off! And he didn't wanna go to bed so I put him up. I could hear him running across the landing and messing about. What's that? I could hear him running across the landing I said, and messing about. But they went asleep after anyway. Well I cleaned all the windows Gordon, right? Want to get All out? Yeah. All the back, right? Yeah. Outside as well. Window like? Yes. And cleaned the windows up the side . Having a brain storm or what? And erm well I thought, I'd well I'll do my nets and put them up you see Gordon, cos then it'll be finished with wouldn't it? So I ironed this big net here,Gordon. What's that? I ironed my big net here and it meant to go up in the window there. But it's a little bit too long there, so you know them nails that are in you know the nails, they're already in the window? Ah. I tried to pull them out but I couldn't. What for? To, to put them nails up up a little bit on the window that's all. Only about an inch see, that's all the Maybe I should er Is it safe to go out alone? only popping out then. So I just then you can pull them nails out. Do you want any potatoes? Roast potatoes? Ah! Go on, chuck another . And erm I got my ironing out the way and then I can go to my mother then, and start to paint, paint the bathroom tomorrow. Alright. And you see Windows are looking bright today! Not for me, go and have a lay down. It's called Ironweed. I well it hasn't long started. It didn't start till ten past ten. Who's cat ? So He said do you want a pint? I said, no I don't bother. I gotta let him go anyway. He's . You should have made him buy you a bloody pint! Ah! Ah, but I didn't want one did I? Especially with him now, you get him work. Does that mean all them outings? No, I haven't got any more of them. ! Johnny fixes them. Well you an hour aren't you now? They're hopeless anyway! . That's what they look like. How much do you get a pint over there now then? It's twenty five pence off innit? Twenty pence. Oh Wayne told me it was twenty five pence off a pint. Oh Wa Wa , Wayne ? Wayne . And he said, all they did, they gotta pay a pound to go in. You mean you gotta pay a pound as well? No, I asked him, he said he's a member. Is he? I didn't think about that. So he's a member of the Comrades as well then? Ah? He's a member of the Comrades and in the social. I know , aye. Well you got a foreigner there . My mother had a complaint today, your family's old feller but she said, whenever you get a better she's always goes and sees somebody else. My mother turned round and said, well you should, you tell her, you should say to her look, I'm next! Serve me! Lucy and your mother comes to take the mickey don't she? Yeah well No, well tell it to your mother. No cos then Stuart like, it's up to Yeah. the cleaner to sort that out. Complaints like. sort it out. But he did go up to my mother and say, like, you know. Well your mother should have said yo , you . My mother said, you wanna see Alison and tell her look, I am next! You know, say what you told me, it's no good telling me! Reg, oh Reggie it is. Yeah? The one with the bald head. I wish they could have on one I hear. Mm. It's nearly midnight innit? Mm. See Was is it a foul then? I think it's silly to go over there, then they don't play bingo do they? They spe spending it all on the snooker or whatever. What did you have to do with it? Ah! Well that , just the command you get here . See the baby's teeth? There are four down the bottom now, four up the top. Yeah. All in front there. Either that way I bet they're didn't it? That's like his dad. And he's . Ain't he? Yeah, but no colour. Do you feel better now? Mm. Are you getting ? Oh! Gordon went over the club like last night. To pay his contributions and then go shaping up. Fi four pound it Mm. for the year. And he, had a glass of squash he was drinking all night. He was in by ten, mind, time he'd played Elsie and shouted at, flyer a line twenty six pound. Never! So see, I told her I was working him well didn't I? She said you can have it and do what you want with it! But Gordon, he wants jeans badly they're all splitting! She just said well get him some, get a pair of jeans out of it. Nice of her. He said he wanted two for a flyer for a hundred pound wages! So he kept saying, oh don't bother going out tonight go after next Saturday for an hour like. He said, oh no I'll take his line and I haven't got the money to Oh! pay out the way. I went and got last night and I'm saying to him, now give me your numbers. And Pam was se , serving you should see her numbers now. And then I got another two and I was sa said some numbers in it, and Pam said, no they're not the ones they've put down she said. I were too late anyway, she took it. Those numbers come out! The ones you had put down? Mm. Bet she was off then. Mm! . Oh! Have you paid for your tickets now? No. Let me pay for our tickets now then. Then pay . No. Well I think a they are. Yeah. The fire, central heating's on er down there. Was Alec there? No. Is he still shaving or Aye. What did dad say about what I did with Alec? What I said about him saying he's not changed any? Dunno. And he was going I know you don't mind Sheila he said, I'm gonna go, I'm going to Spain for holiday. And when you going? Beginning of June. I says, oh aye! A great feller, I think, he said Oh! It'll be alright she said. Got her tickets, I'm coming he said she'll be, everything's paid. And I said, what you on about?, he said if I do , if I don't pay out two hundred and odd pound now that left for our tickets he said, I've only hundred and odd come in, he said you can have a drink on the rest! If get out tonight. He said,o I hope you're not thinking of away so I can have these tickets he said? Because, he said I'm not looking. He said she's gonna give you six hundred pounds worth of tickets, you give her six hundred pound cheque. Yeah? Well, he said well we haven't had it. Who is he? Aye, he's gonna, go for nothing. Dunno what he was thinking of Val said. Talking a load of rubbish! Go round the again car again and throw them to the kids. Perhaps they'll get a . Will you? Mm! Now looks as if it's in her hair there the way things No cos I got his Sean's jumper! she had erm,e , Sean bought it round there and I picked that one cos the other one was same as the one he already had. And I get it green for her now. And I get it green for when she stands up in class. She was sitting there tonight she had to buy one of them bar. What? . And Mandy was round there. She's seen him and went in with the electric bill and he, he bought hundred and sixty pound in stamps. What, is she taking in the night dressing gown is she? Because she said erm cos Chris is living there now he's gonna show us what he can do she said. She said, he got his stereo on his stereo on upstairs on and off. Like she's been innit? What? I said, well why didn't you get up . She don't know where she put it then? I said, oh th fifteen pound a fortnight. Well she said, well I worked out about ninety pound at the end of the quarter like. She said, well mine, she said would be further than sixty pound at the end, a hundred and twenty at the end of the quarter, but she said oh this time it's gonna be about a hundred sixty so it's crippling me living here! So she said, how much will I be putting in a fortnight she said in a electric cooker? Well it's about time her daughter paid it! Give towards innit? Mandy won't be living at home now. He's on the dole, lucky if he's gets thirty pound a week. And Mandy gets thirty four pound a week, one year's benefit, and she'll get the family allowance set now. But she's on about forty pound a week . And sh she don't take nothing off them, she buys all the food! He's only on invalidity, Graham is! And that Carole gets eighteen pound for herself. Not invalidity. Sixty pounds week. So she's on eighteen pound, they'll owe say eighty pound a week rent. Won't she get a job? Oh mam! But she's already in so bloody pain you know, like sick. then I found a bloody job! And I cal , I called Alec yesterday morning like and asked, you know I said to him there's only one and I said it's the last one down there like. Soon the place should go back to normal. No he said leave it a at sixty five pence. So of course, when we did Are you in it then? Aye. We're in it every day now and Tommy was on like last night when I went in, Tommy was on to now say it. You know, like it should be back to normal because Well it was back to normal. Way to back to normal weeks ago. Oh aye! That's right, aye. I, oh well. But there's still a few a few more. Aye. Can't bloody keep any boilers there. Nah. already then? Penny? Penny. So give me your twenty pound eleven now. And ma , mark it off your card so I know where I am. Right? And if you give me dad's five pound well I can mark his off and then you can tell him then, I'll leave your card here and you can say you've paid and you owe me five pound. He knows he's gotta give it to you then. I've gotta have it now to sort the bloody money out! Gotta pen. Drawer. I ain't got five pound. Ah? I haven't got five pound on me. How much you got? Te twenty. Two twenties. There's mine. Your father's given you there. Ah, oh it what? I'll give you twenty now. Right. Date today, fourteenth? Mm. There are a month later the twenty eighth . Fourteen the first ninety two. Twenty pound off you owe ten pound. Then Carole'll give me five pound a week now look, and then you finish in two weeks love and then you can order covers or whatever you wanna order. Mm. I don't owe anything. coat now, I'm gonna start paying for it Friday. And what's gonna pay, five pound? Or one fifty is it? Yeah. I'll leave dad's card you . Four ninety nine like he owes. Well I'll see him anyway definitely when he comes back. Yeah. I know. asking him then? What? Yeah. I saw this right, on a You said that one today. Yeah. And the green one there. I'll get er too much sleep. Are we going? No. Don't you fancy going up today? Not if I know the same . I know. I'm sorry! Dad's pretty keen. Yeah. Do you want that on? Yes. Well it said three wrong. Well you got that right didn't you? Got that right. Mm. Is he coming down, he'll be down shortly. Can I take that? I think we're going out the movies. Are you? Aye. He just the essay then. So you didn't ask her to go. No I didn't.. Is she playing tonight? Yeah. Did you play er whatsername? Aye. Yeah. The edge. It's that that little he couldn't find it. He couldn't find it. Is that my mummy? And when this is going, turn round the other way. No no! No, no, no, no! I know! That's enough! No Ah! no, no, no! Whereabouts, why would I put them there? Oh he's put it off! Ah! so what do you wanna with it? Put it up li come up like that. I've seen that. I know that. Well it was. There you are. Very good! There are you. Thank you. Do you think I should ? Yeah. Hang on! We wanted to ride in those. Yeah. Yeah well I'll tell you what's wrong with them. Ah! Dad! Didn't even know how to do this! Oi! Oi! That's no way to talk Sean! No, I I er, said no way, like I was gonna say Like you do this morning? you've lost your shoe. That's better. He was gonna tell you this morning he said look at me with daddy! And slept alright didn't you? Yeah. Are you sleeping with us then? I think she er woke up about what ti time did Kirsty wake up? I couldn't tell you what it is. You know what it is. You wake up any any time last week at all? . Oh! What's that? No I hope he didn't. I er Kirsty went to sleep. I couldn't ow! Look she's hitting me! You slept in there didn't you? Yes I did. Who told you? No, nobody I just, just I can you Patrick if he was out there? Where? He's coming to play with me. Need someone to play with. Oh yeah. It's up to there. I dunno . Have you got a Ah, you fix that up for me Sean would you? Thursday or Friday or Thursday's better for us to go and then nanny took it apart . Yeah! It's good! Because there's a lot of different parts u , I need to go there. That's in the bathroom. I know you're gonna I know you're gonna Cos you I need I know you're gonna put it on my chair. What's that? Do you want it to work? Yeah. What has he put on the Oh! I dunno. Oh no! Why are you sending to it with that? I dunno. We've got plenty of them in your box. And did you wanna go that way? Did you? In the middle? You know what they are there don't you? What? There are some withdrawal symptoms though don't he? I've been Yeah. sleeping in bed. I know you do. Good girl aren't you? What's on your head Kirsty? . Yeah, you've got something there! Well never mind, it'll come out. Must have put your hair in did you? It looks just right for a helicopter man. There you are! I told you there should be one there. Only thing is, he hasn't got nothing on his head! But you got plenty haven't you? I know! Put this on him! I've got the, where's Kirsty? as well! Yeah. There's those coats Gordon, there's several of them after those coats that er I gotta take them for . What are they jackets or coats on Thursdays? Yeah yo one o , one of the red coats Talking about that one er er in there there's one's there. No, no, no one is a red woollen coat you know, with the buttons up to the top. And something else she said she, oh! Oh, the pink jacket anorak Like the one I bought for Kirsty. don't fit she says she says we'll have it. And I pu , I got a Oh dad the wheel on ! He's then moved it over a bit. Want anything else then Sean? I haven't stuck the gears on. You can move them anyway you want to Sean, it's up to you to do that to work them. So you're fast And even then a lot of this stuff to get on and off. It's only part of the Lego this Sean and make a look holding the stick. I haven't stuck that as well have I Sean. Well I know how to put it on anyway. It tips, so you can put these on. Well, I didn't stick it all because My, my book's come off so that you could play with it isn't it? It looks good! So stick these back on. Mm. Oops! Come stick with me. Alright. That's this one. Is there two books in her hand? Lovely, lovely tractor! Is there two books in her hand? So Sean's got the . And I put them in back of her hood cos she couldn't hold my hand. So he put them Yes. in her hood and Sean watched her bringing Well you just pay for that. And they never fell out. You had to read it use Sean's library book. Yeah, they used to mine. The Cooper Family Lived On It's Own . We've got two of those! Have you? They were disturbing at the top . And there was Nebbins. Nebbins was Mr Cooper's only horse. Nebbins was Mr Cooper's only horse who worked very hard, pulled the plough and the hay cart, and his, all the other jobs that a horse had to do on a farm. Nebbins was happy! He had lived with the Coopers nearly all his life and all Coopers like him, especially Tom . There's Tom look! Kirsty. See Tom with the apple there. Tommy came to the barn every day after Nebbins work was finished and always brought him an apple, or a lump of sugar. Great brother Jim gave him fresh water and plenty of oats. One day a terrible thing happened! And Mr Cooper and Nebbins were returning from the field Like that! Now they've picking hands look! Mm! You can put them on the and now it stings my hand cos I cos Never mind. Never mind. I caught , I caught took my hand to those cats. Dad bought your bike down here. I didn't even feel like Only that you've not been on his bike or yesterday. I thought perhaps, you'd bring your bike down. I got a little purse! I know! That's lovely that. I only just taken his bike for him cos it went a bit rusty cos out the back and er couldn't find then could we? I only once then we lost it again, lost the somewhere, it's up the hill somewhere but I don't know where. Well I bought you a couple isn't it? Yeah. I it's up the hill somewhere but I can't find it. Oh dad! The tractor is here come and see! Of course Nebbins had never seen a tractor before, he wondered what it was. When they reached the farmyard there it stood, a great shiny red thing with big wheels at the back and little wheels in front. And what a fuss everyone was making about it! Tommy was climbing all over it! And Jim was giving it a drink of water. Why he was the one who had always bought Nebbins a drink when he came home. Today, no one paid any attention to Nebbins, not even Tommy! Old Nebbins felt hurt and slowly set off towards . What, well is Nebbins the tractor? No! The horse! Ah! That Nebbins heard Mr Cooper and the tractor returning from the field. Jim and Tommy were with him. Mr Cooper drove it straight into the barn and stopped next to Nebbins I can't fit the gear in now! I told you it was hard didn't I? Mm. Have to take it out. You shouldn't of take him off see Sean. How dreadful thought Nebbins! Let's see if I can do it for you. Mr Cooper and the boys rushed over . No, you've glued it all up. Now No I haven't glued this er gear bits on there. Oh that, yeah! Cos it fell off all the time. Cos it, if erm if that If you could pull that off you can put it on . Oh, I'll keep them on. Will you see if I can put it on too Sean? No I don't want them to be there. How dreadful! Nebbins kicking his knees out! Mr Cooper and boys rushed over to calm him. At last they were closing the barn door hearing Mr Cooper say Jim I could You know the entrance to the ? The ? aha. There. Oh aye. Do you want anything? When you was up at Teddys thought a bit little and it was, it was achanical . Quite big isn't it? It's not achanical , it's mechanical. Mechanical because it's it's it's erm when it's things need kind of things like that. It looks mechanical don't it? I I it looks like a little mechanical You know what mechanical, and I think he's on a train. You know why they can't put more carriages on a train? Why? Platforms not long enough. But it's not stopping you see! No. Well you You don't stop there but er Yeah! But only certain times. Oh! But they nowadays they have a full coming over. They can't stop, that's it. Not big enough er Go along the line it was in the paper about that. It Yes. was in the paper about the other car coming along that one. No they announced it. You see, because the two two quarters there look they overlap! And yet, years ago they used to be long, long trains. I it's the new, new Ah! But that's a new station, new platform see. Yeah. is a longer one. I mean they could have gone, look how long Aberech station, er platform is. Be, be massive innit! It's massive! Can't they extend it? That's what I'm doing now ripping it all out. Ooh! That's what you've been doing. Oh! That's good! Oh! Because when people come to catch our train at twenty five to five i i it's announcing us that train. Yeah. I've gotta be there now. Don't stop at the . Let me go and wash my hands first. Grandpa. Loo I'm the only one who done it yesterday! Grandpa , look at my train! I'll be there now. Let Grandpa wash his hands first. Cos Is that the tea on? ga , I'm collecting because, and stuff like this. I'll go and make a cup of tea. And when are the diggers going on the road? Oh ! And they dig a packet up. He, and he Have you had breakfast? come here, trailer and track. Yeah. And he says the Queen don't wanna Yeah, I've had breakfast. carry it on here What about ? so, he carries it on the trailer like that What did you want for breakfast ? on the road when they wanna go to another Er building sites, and they finished the other building sites. What did she have for breakfast Gordon? Kirsty had Weetabix. And this is a Yes. rescue helicopter. And what did you have Sean? Is that a helicopter or a plane? Helicopter. Helicopter. Do you like do you? It was quite good that helicopter Gordon. Yeah. What did you have for breakfast Sean? You had toast didn't you? Did you have toast for breakfast? You going out ? And there's so much little things on it! Are you going out with me today? Yeah. With me? Yeah? Are you sure? Yeah. And Kirsty? Nan. After breakfast? Yeah. Nan? My chocolate sponge. Yeah. Nan? What love? I'm glad you're coming with me cos it's so much little stuff on They are. No I'm not doing it Sean. I'll get it when we come back. And not doing it he or with you because he wouldn't even let, alright then. I didn't glue them all there, I just glued some of it Some of it. so that when it er, come apart you would have some of it together and some of it would bond together so that you could do it yourself then. Yeah. Anyway Alright? anyway dad I well you started fixing this didn't you, on Christmas day? And, when you come home you said mum did did you fix this? And and mummy said no. And then when you come in I was fixing it weren't I? Yeah. I fixed Yeah. it! Yeah. There was one piece I couldn't fix on. And I, I don't whether Clever boy! didn't I? Yeah. And when I come back you put it on yourself! Good boy! And I said you're a good boy didn't I? You haven't got a flat bit there. It's on your tape. On the tape it is. Nanny put it away for you. On the tape for me. Oh! I got you ! What time did you start last night then to work? Te te , ten o'clock. Ten o'clock? Well about that. Dad! Look ee I made a little one! You want this? And a mechanical helicopter? Do you want tea Gordon? Oh aye. I'll have a cup. Yeah , I'll have a cup of tea mum please? Is that your bag there? Where? What do you carry in it? Money? No. I've got loads of money! You could have sat on this then! No Sean. Yeah I'm coming out now. I was watch him how to do it. You could stand on that. I dunno how to put You'd break it if you stand on that wouldn't you? Why don't you go and put it on the table love, over there. There? You want tea Gordon, yeah? And you won't get it on here. I'll have a cup please, aye. Ah! Mm. Will mine Ma, do you want him to do that down here love? Ah, he's taking it all up. How many's there? How many down there? Three fellers. It's not many. Three! Three's a lot! Kirsty don't like her dummy no more now! She don't. No. She told me that last week! Good girly, Kirst! Is this three? One, two, three. Good boy! A stray 'copter. Brrr! Brrr! I like that! What's that er over there? Is that it? Where? No, that's Sean and Kirsty's. I mean in the they didn't really like that. Took it back up didn't they? Oh cos Wherever they are. Down there? Are you? Oh I got it! See Manchester United won again yesterday. Did they? Yeah! Go back up to One nil against Everton. Liverpool won too. Two one they did weren't they? I said it's three. Here's a big one. The game's off. And Pontypool beat Swansea! Better be good. Eh? Hello Rene. Hiya! Alright nan? Hiya! A helicopter! And er we haven't had it, we haven't received it yet. You haven't been out again mum? That's a lot slower. Ah ! I went the , if I could have a cosy bag like you. Well I told you you'd have to order it. Don't you order at all? Ooh! Ta darling. In a pin shop. I told you didn't I? I was ordering it when Becky told me, and then Becky and she said Yeah , but well you've gotta go the shop and tell her. Mum, can I have the telly on ? The Yeah. I remember what it done with me. The batteries . Anywhere'll sell batteries. Yeah. But you do come in Oh. and I told you could always pop in. You got Woolworths here? Oh yes! Bu to give you all a hand with it wouldn't it? Wool shop? Because you'd have to go and see whoever's in charge. No, they have them in stock and th they said last week. No! They haven't got any as I Oh! already told you! This, nan? Hello. Do you like ? I haven't got something I haven't Would they like this? Ah! We'll . I don't think they've tasted it before. Granddad. Do you like these? It's number three a motorbike. I put washing out on. Why? What The what ? This Ah! th this this num num na this number This one three, motorbike crashed the car. The things I pop on the back And, and he got a book. She got it. Oh. Daddy, have you? If she wants one get it on here. I'll have to buy one before then. What? I can see the whole of the time That's what? Goodness me! That's what? Let him Oh they'll be giant! Give him one of them. I gotta make you for them. I got two er and then a big one for me. And I got . Have you finished? Look i You're not finished yet. it's the grapes with pips in them. Yeah. Yeah. I'm taking the pips out. Let him go. What? They'll be teasing us in the club mother won't they? I oh yes they will. I know, but the only thing is they'll be very, very special! Right. Can I move that tea cup a bit? I was just gonna see What about ? Big sink over there. Could we go out there? Ah? I haven't sent over the card yet. That's green. A sympathy card I asked Debbie yesterday. I don't know whether to go out. But one thing I do fi you get a sympathy card I gotta go to the funeral isn't it? No. You should post it Course not. already so that they If you post this you don't, but don't give it back. What Right? like this? post it or give it her. Well you could do. Well it's better than making it all up. No, it doesn't matter about after the funeral we got . That's alright then, that's what I'm saying, aye. Erm, oh they're beautiful! Well if you posted it tomorrow look, she would have it wouldn't she? Yeah. Yeah. She'd have it Tuesday. I dunno. I could have got her one up the road this morning. She'll wait three days. You should have gone to get it down there. I forgot to get one yesterday. I don't think I got one. . When he . I know. I remember you saying. Oh ! Hasn't got erm I expect he'd be . I didn't have any, yeah! Say, I've gotta change the . I could give it to her if I'd had it. And I'd scraped the cooker I had it there. Isn't it, oh no, I paid her that Like one pound thirty he says. Cos they were said, he just come in nanny, he said he's got the change. One pound twenty he said, innit? Thirty. No! One pound twenty I think. One pound thirty then he told me. Oh! I only give him one pound twenty. I got one pound twenty but er, in change but she said, like how much is a bet here and she said one pound thirty. pound twenty. Hello! How are you? I got people the wrong way! Yes. A purse. Oh give me that. That's off her dress. Off your dress. That's to go with her dress. Oh these are . And then you are Oh Gordon, oh Suzanne phoning last night. And Jimmy? Oh! Oh! Oh! Oh! She said Ha! Ha! they sent us a parcel before Christmas three weeks before Christmas, and they were ringing se , because he knew with overseas or anything . So, she said that er Oh oh, oh! Ha! Ha! La ! can we enquire about it. But if you remember the last time they sent us a parcel er It's hardly worth you having anything at all o obviously it's out innit? they took out loads of things. They take a lot of things out see. Do they? Yeah! Yeah! Yeah! They open it. And when we went to Germany they would say, you know, she said you had our parcel and I said yes, and I said did you have ? I said no! Couple of things Bill wasn't it? About three things they said that was in the parcel we never had. Where's my ? They haven't come in yet. Oh God! Bring my trousers woman, if anything! got to got that Casanova that, exactly like it. He's, he's worse than all the kids! No! You got a la I know, I can see it. Right there. What are you gonna do about it do you know? There. He's been on those hasn't he? A little bit. Yeah. What? Look nan! Oh yeah! What is it? Look! Oh I know. Look at that. Oh that's great! Yes! The motorbike bashed into it and when he bashed into him he crashed When you woke up frightened there? crashed into him What? When you woke up . and and cardboard Well I didn't wanna go. and then his saddle come off and Ah? then the rescue helicopter and that just one Daddy'll stay there or wait till I come home. If you're lucky. I've got your father there. I tell you what He's gone off I told you What's that? They didn't go out cos I said he could . Brrr! Brrr! Yeah? That's, yes that's Brrr! Oh yeah! He can't go out anyway. Did you two block yes, an accident. Ah well! That's when I'm having my batteries. Yeah . Jump But on her face she could get a Oh! She is a bit. and she said er Can she mum? Yeah I don't mind. I li , I can't look at any of them shops she said. Nan ! What's the They looking at shops they're not . Nan! Ooh I say! There's grading in all shops like? Yeah! Nan! But apart Nan! from that, what love? What's that? What is it? Let me see. Oh gosh! Erm I'll attend the funeral anyway we Tuesday. What you got in there? Nothing. Anyway, I'll do that Something in the ,measure. Orange for you. A Pear for you. And half the grapes. Well why didn't she tell them And the rest is I am a bit hot. never told mum did she? How do you know that? Show me. And some juice! Yeah , cos it was you with erm well it must have been some years ago. Mm! Hee! What day she was here? Tuesday. I was coming from the road, I met Lil. Lil who? Lil er next door to me. Oh! I said well I don't see you very often. She said no I'm in work. And said I wonder what's the matter the next house next to me, she said I wi I I wondered if Penny come and live there, you know, from where she is now er Yeah. I said, I dunno Lil, I I heard it was gonna go up for sale. Is that Olly's house? Yeah. And she said, do you know her nan? She calls her nan don't she? Yeah. Mrs er , Mrs ? Yeah. She's nice lady int she? Yeah. They think she got cancer in the breast. Oh! At her age? They're sending her down tomorrow. Erm, I said, Miss Ah no! stayed up here, Mrs, er doctor I said to her, till the mother comes along. And the nearest She got will they? That's right then is it? That Yes they will! Oh I don't believe it! How old is she? About ninety two. Oh well. And she said, she said to her mother last week she went up to see her and she said to me she said, out of the blue it come she said tell me, how is Rene getting on? Ah! Ah! What you done? And then she said, I said oh she's alright she's still living next to me. Oh! And she said and what about Betty ? Oh she said, she's still there nan. I'm a mechanic. I'm not doing it because of that, I'm doing it because I prefer to do it, but it isn't that, it's just the fact that I won't be here tomorrow to go and No. water the flowers. If I'd have known earlier I could have done it. But I, I didn't . No I'll er Well Bill can give , he can give it me to give her. I must fill it out. You jump What is it cancer, is it cancer research is it? Well anything I expect. I expect it will be cancer cos her mother died of that as well. And her father so I could have done that. Did you enjoy your telly last night? What did we watch last night? Oh I watched a er I couldn't get over you and Debbie said there's nothing on telly tonight see. It was Dustin Hoffman. I watched that er Marathon I turned it off Marathon Man? because I didn't watch that. Watched the darts I've seen it before. I did. Oh! It was good! I I watched the darts in the afternoon. Yes! Weren't it Good! good? Great, the darts! I didn't, I didn't see the darts in the afternoon I saw it last night. Brilliant weren't it? Oh this is wonderful! And I turned over and I just caught the end of that film. And McBrady he had two chances to go and Mum! he could have gone. Yes. Mum! Mum Yes. where's the box? Couldn't finish. Couldn't , yeah. At the back. I I enjoyed the Marathon Man. The box that that I really enjoyed it! come in? With the helicopter in? Yeah. I seen it before that one. The Marathon Man. Yes, I have too. I have too. Ooh I love it! Yes! And The Boys from Brazil was on in the evening. I watched that. I taped that as well. Oh I didn't see that. It's a great one that! Gregory Peck. Gregory Peck! Oh! Because er I quite enjoyed that film. James Mason as well weren't it? Yeah. I watched it to end of er, darts then golf come on and I turned off then look so I Go and get a box for that. What I done, I taped it back like that. Mhm. Gosh! They'd had a match though didn't it? Mm. Oh! It's, bloody hell! Longest er Yeah! longest thing though weren't it? I really enjoyed it! And I was late back and I was goes oh my gosh! I wa really got into, I hadn't seen a this good! Oh aye it was good! Only a bit in that and he told me, and she kept that . Oh aye, that's it. And I just know that even and off. I don't wanna know the answer. Ah! And I turned over and I just caught the last bit there. I've watched them all through the week see. But Steve Davis and er Have you? I've watched them all through the week. Steve Davis and Stephen Hendry. That was close that. I think , oh I missed that. I Just caught the end of it. I really enjoyed it! I I just caught the last frame. You just caught ye , ah. Oh I do enjoy er er darts. But that wasn't darts. I'm sure I miss it too. What it is, when you got snooker on and just snooker you're quite content to watch it, but when you got darts on one side and snooker on the other side darts is such a faster game Mm. Faster than snooker. Of course it is. An and er, I mean, I love snooker but when there's a choice of darts and snooker I always watch the darts because it's faster, it's more counting. They reckon that er, er er er oh is it, er the whole family go there, children and all, you know! It used to be fifty thousand innit, the prize? But it's gone down to twenty eight Twenty eight it's gone down to. twenty eight now innit? Twenty eight thousand so that's Mind you, that's better than nothing innit? I think there's about No. thousand in the I was about to say I er eight thousand difference in er first and second wasn't it? Bill I was thinking I wonder is your black tie over my mother's? I bet it's up there. And the last time you wore it was with that mac, remember that mac? The long trench coat? Do you remember? Was it I remember. I remember. Ned's , Ned's funeral? Was it? That's the last time you wore it. Oh! Oh! Eleven years ago! Wayne's? Wayne's I never got. Pouring with rain wasn't it? Remember? Aye. I haven't had a lend of it since then have I? You've got one of your own! The very last one cos that means you had a loan of it from me. No, you've still got the same one you have. Don't have one of them do you? Oh yeah he has. You got the same one. No, you got the lend of the one, he had a lend of the one you give to Nicholas. Well that's our tie Mrs! Have you looked all up upstairs then have you? Everywhere. And then, I always put it on hanger I can tell you. Bloody awful! I can't find my bloody, oh! He I couldn't have worked out where my black is! I had to give him a bloody week! I always put on hanger, every time I put it away. He don't, but I do. Bet you had a lend of that didn't you? No! No he hasn't had a lend of your tie! Nobody has! I know they haven't, so that's the only thing I can think of is over there on er that Have they yet? Mm mm. That Someone ill is there? Yeah. I kno , I know I can make it separate like this in a corner. All in there. Yeah. Like that? Well I went on the Had quite a bit recently . not coming on it. I didn't see it. Was it good? No! I didn't see it. Betty's seen it and she told me about it. What? Said she enjoyed watching . I got a machine with nothing on it. Not, I out of the machine I think it is. Oh! Which you could fit in an helicopter. Yeah! Well I think it must go there. But most of it is damn well dry. Cos cos I've never had it Helicopter before have you? any Lego. But, you know police station I had? And there was helicopters in that weren't there? Yeah. But I accidentally broke it! Well where's all the parts that fell apart? You could bring them down and we co keep that here for now that helicopter And paper. and you know on that Robin Hood one Mhm. I could sit. Have you? You know, like I done with the house I put different parts for there Yeah. You done that with your Mm. Robin Hood Lego? That's good! Awful quiet Kirst. She is quiet today ain't she? Haven't come round yet And have you? And that there ain't much parts on the police station. Ain't there? Well all the, all the helicopters, the big parts I've definitely lost. I bet they're up there in, in one of your boxes somewhere. Are you alright na nan? When I, I erm was calling out the first , right? I can remember on erm the other day I I accidentally dropped the helicopter on the floor and it, I couldn't find that The part to it. th well I could find the part to it. I could have fixed it, but but I couldn't find the thing ? like snake thing. The , the it is of of, well, well you got one now haven't you, the best one? If it's the same then he copies it er Is it that one, the helicopter? What? Put the helicopters in your other one? That's it, in there. You like school lately? Yes. Do you like school? Oh there you are then. You, keep the paper, don't lose the paper! You do, do you? What's your teachers name? Perhaps you can make it up on your own. Th the Do you know your what's in all the parts there? I don't know. What's that for? Ain't the same parts from the two helicopter ain't they? No. Plenty in this one. Anyway,i it Don't know. didn't haven't just er They changed all the teachers round now because When er Have they? he had this Sean's teacher was taken ill this in weren't she? Oh! I didn't know. down the bottom there. So they moved the teachers all round now. Like that. Oh! One, Mrs , Mrs don't have the Go in there. class one now. Oh! There's another teacher looking after Oh I think that Oh! one's just Alright. empty. Alright. Pick all the, all the bits in your plastic bag. I don't mean that I meant You got a nice case and you don't bring it up with anything in! You carry it all in plastic bags! What? Your case! What? Why don't you bring down your case we brought you? Is it much better? Yes! Oh! You can put all your Lego in that case. Mm. Yeah. You didn't think of that did you? Saves you carrying it in the bag. your school bag! And you carry it in plastic bags! And you bought a nice little case there. And you got a nice box. Case is the word Sean. innit? Sean, you can put all your Lego in that. Did you see that then? No I didn't see that. I'll show you. I'll show you. Like a It's like er sliding. a see-saw. Wee! Woo! Look at that! Well that's a way to clean ma. Look at that! Well I don't see . Alright. Er that's how they go and helicopter heli helicopters don't go, wee! They go, they go, brrr! Mm! Then they'll be going after me. I, oh I'm not putting it Well take them back there. Shall we go Sean and get some Sean. I haven't been, this is, where does that go? Well you'll leave Are you coming? Because we're now gonna wipe over that now? This is hot. Who wears this hat? Would you like that to go with your ? I know. You tells me. Do You? You told me. You told me about six times! Oh well, I told you another time then! I'll make it seven! Only manage Tuesday Bill, you'll you'll have to have half day will you? Aye. Buying two er three, er four, five six, seven Eight. eight How many fools on the you trading Yeah I go , I got one. for ? You know what they said? That's one twenty there. And if it's one thirty give him that as well. Alright then? One twenty . all round here. I'll have to cha , change it. Look gramps! Ain't that good? Yes. Are you doing it properly boy? Yeah. Oh well take that look. A man building Mind the other piece there. You haven't any Kirst have you? All do you wanna do, look, the fans li like this. Ah! watch it. All in there. We'll have it on telly in about fifteen minutes. They're all in there ain't they? Right. Ah! What was that? Oh I put on a pound too. Until I put in a . Oh ! I forgot it was there now look, those eighty twos. I thought about running it back a while. What? Then take it back it's only twenty. Aye. Aye. , is it? Wasn't checking was she? Well I'll see if there's any more. And pay her back so it'll make up the up to one thirty. Dad! I got Nan! Oh! where's the red Pass me a paper over dad. Sunday paper there. Well, the I'll show you when you come out. Have a glance through this and all. Have you seen Alf? Oh I have! Yeah. Have you got it all still? That one please? Can I have it? Ah! Yeah. What's that one there? No! Dinner first. Yeah, I'll finish this first. I asked you to take all that in. If you're good. Oh! I thought What are you I thought we'd have a Smartie one. Oh I, I didn't have no Smarties to put on it. Oh! And you didn't have any here. I would have bought some if . Oh! Alright then ? Alright, yeah. Er Well I haven't been so I wonder what it is like? Not this one What's that? I'm doing this one. My batteries for my front door bell. Oh yeah! It's two pound a year for the . Well I said, said it again! That was a long time ago! Bought that, weren't it, the last battery you had? Well I just put the last one in. What do you want? From Woolworths. So I took the price off it when I give it back to Woolworths, er to er Linda's. Linda's Da da da da da da! Oh dear ! Da! So I wonder how much it's gone up? It's two pound eighty nine. You are Oh let's give your mother some . What? I reckon Right. One twenty and put ten pence back innit? Ooh! Ooh! Ooh! ha! Have you got did you say? Yeah. Yeah. He said one thirty see, she thought it Oh! Oh! Oh no! One twenty. Dad! It's they're always mucking about. Nanny. Change around. What? Look! Ooh! You watch this nan. Three. Nana, turn it around. Hold the and No. bounce it along. I haven't got thirty. I found You we the three! It's silly! I was, granddad! all the threes and your And then you give it What? Did you see the score draws on here yesterday? Thirteen! I dunno. I had Thirteen score draws. And I pulled them and it went wrong. That's mine , that. I know! Look nan! Look! Mistake anyway. What? I'll pull it down. If I'd had another one with a couple of Look! I'm gonna keep it there and er Ooh! I I, If I'd another one with a couple of I I've done na , I know, I've done nanny's when she comes I'll leave it. I'll do it then. Okay ! Who forgot to clear the table I had four please? on my Yeah. own. Oh mind the this is hot. getting to know you. Some roast potatoes and your . Right? Oh good! I like yeah! Oh! Roast potatoes! I want more roast, yeah. Yeah. Oh! And she smelled to me and she's I want that putting there. Bit o , bit of a for a walk and he You dropped it. wa walked back to the van and she can smell all the cows' Who's getting that one ? Aye. muck! Oh! Ah! She didn't like it did she? She didn't like the smell! She didn't like the smell of it! Didn't you like the smell of the cows Kirst? No! I didn't! Wah! Did you like the smell of the cows? Ah ah, she didn't. Didn't she? No. No. That's . I, and What did you say there? Did you like Fish Called Wanda? Yeah, it's okay. Try answering it. Is it well worth watching? Yeah I suppose so. What's that? A Fish Called Wanda. Fish Called Wanda. Any good Gordon? Er, I dunno. Sean your dinner! It's on the Oh! table darling! Oh! ask a silly question . I was born on central Island as I said. What's the name of the of the The house Er the house was Greenspot. It was down near the centre of the island down past er mill dam. Ah. Mhm. And was that ? Aye. Mhm. What size was it? About seven and a half acres. Oh that's not very big. No. Were there many in your family Two. That size of croft would never be enough to keep you living. Keep the family. Well it kept us and er when we were the school holidays my brother and me used to to gather whelks and and that. The Summer holidays and even even in the Christmas holidays we were . . Well er ten or twelve year old. Yeah. When were you born? Nineteen twenty two. So what what kind of livestock did you have on that size of croft? Oh Can you remember. Oh two ca and four calves and a horse. One horse. One horse? Aye and joined with the next-door neighbour er for cultivating the land. Mm. Did you have anything at that time? No I never at Greenspot let me say. I don't believe So that must have died generation. Oh there were there were a lot of houses but ere we didn't have any. We used to some of us other boys we'd go down to the banks and the Winter time. Oh aye . Where you involved in it? Aye, the gathering . Used to take a a basket with your bottle with tea and that in it to my father when we was . What was it like . Oh it was great month of June. See we Summer days then compared with what we get nowadays. Everybody says that so it must be true. When you went to the kelp, how long do you remember that ? Oh I don't know really what time the really started. I think it started school. And what age were you when you left Fourteen. Ready to walk land when I were fifteen. But like, when you were a young boy growing up would the kelp workers could they make as much money . Er not really, the main source of income on the croft er when I was was er we keeping hens. Aye. Tell me about that. Oh I couldn't rightly tell you what the number of hens would be that er maybe within maybe er thirty dozen eggs in the week or so. Mhm. And that was that's just your your croft. Mm mhm mhm. Aye with used just the grain that was grown on the croft and brought in a lot of the feed. We used to wheel it home then on the push-bike. The feed for the shop and we the box of eggs on the push-bike. And that brought in th that was your main source on income ? Aye. Mhm. When did that start? Was that on the go when you were growing up o did it start Aye just when I was growing up it started aye, maybe when or maybe when I was about er ten year old or something. . Oh quite a lot. Well like all the the ground was all cultivated and you had the had like all the Summertime you had to fence the the hens off the the cultivated land. What kind of hens did you have? It was usually wine dots, some leghorns, Rhode Island Reds. Oh Aye and there was the all the the tatties boiled tatties and chopped it up for the hens. That was my mother sometimes er mix it up with er with the bought hen feed and gathering nettles and er boiling nettles and that to mix it up with. Oh. Mhm. And gathering chickweed out of the neep the chickens and that for green feed when they needed and they were confined in a small small space where there was no green grass to feed them on. Oh I see. You used to go up with a with a sack or something and gather the chickweed er out of the tattie and neep . So you reared your own . Mhm. Oh yeah, flock of hens. Sit on maybe thirteen or fourteen eggs. Mhm. Was that hens . Oh no hens. And they used to and they if you had er good er breeding stock and that the the neighbours would come to you for a sitting on eggs. Coze eggs a dozen eggs or . Would this erm croft specialize in that? Did you w did you specialize more than most folk or were you just average ? Oh no no, just average. All the peedie crofts throughout did that. More the peedie crofts Aye And was it much did you get for you know Oh I just I just couldn't tell you really what Usually. Aye usually Mhm. Well there was you would er buy your errands and they was marked down in a book at the shop. You put up your eggs and marked it down and then they was er cleared then at the end of the year. And some years you'd probably maybe get a few pounds back and sometimes you would er maybe have to pay a few pounds. And your Aye. But Aye. Mm . I see but you didn't actually get the money for them. No actually no. Mhm. But us there was there was mainly was also er living was er the eggs paid for what you bought for the shop. And for their own er feed. Aye. Mhm. You bought that for the shop did you Mhm. Aye aye. And you didn't have to No you just marked it down and cleared it up at the end of the year. What kind of accommodation and and equipment and that did you need for the hen did you just big henhouse Just the the usual size for a henhouse, er six by eight feet. Er And how many hens would that hold? Oh you'd maybe hold er thirty in it. Mhm. Thirty hens in the six by eight house. Aye over those aye. about the same size. And roof with er like st flag stone roofs. Where they easy to keep hens? Mm. Were they did they need a lot of attention ? Well they needed a lot but they especially if they were in a confined space. But what we found was that the heavier breeds, the wine dots and the Rhode Island Reds, they didn't need such a high fence as what the leghorns or any of the lighter breeds needed. Used to if the wire and that you'd try and get a hold of them and clip their wings to stop the flying out. Did they all follow or not? Oh they tried to aye. That must have been an awful lot of hens then . Oh aye. And now, where did they go then? The usually go to the the egg packing station . I think most of the of the crofters here I think maybe had a better . But nobody much into the the egg packing station. Mhm. And when did that all fold up? Oh it folded up after the war. Mm. Something I've heard it said before, I don't know if this is true in North Ronaldsay that that gale in nineteen thirty two had something to do with it . Mhm aye it had something to do with it lot of lot of henhouses and that blown away. And aye certainly i think it did er start to go down after that. And Do you remember that night? Oh aye I did. Tell me what you remember of it. I remember me getting up about three o'clock in the morning I heard the wind and I got up to look at the stack yard and start to put er bits of pit props and that into the nets and and and the wind was getting that strong the pit props was going flying over me head and I gave it up and made for and it's certainly not a very high door at Greenspot but or a very big door but it took me all my time to get the door closed. Mm. Mm. Was it the worst wind you've seen? Oh aye. It was more wind than what was the hurricane after to the North East. Aye. Was that the next year? Aye. Mhm. Aye mhm, there were more damage done on North Ronaldsay with the nineteen fifty two. What direction wind was it? South West. Is that your worst . Mhm. Aye. And what damage did the wind do to your croft? Well er it blew down er two of the henhouses and er I was working at Cruisbruk then. And they got reckon they were They had a lot of henhouses then they were working a lot hens and there were five or six henhouses all blown to bits and the hens scattered about everywhere. All the stacks blown down. Were there hens all dead? Aye a lot of them. Aye. . There were quite a lot of loss right enough. I was just gonna say There were a there were a bit of fund for it I think. Aye. There were some there were one or two on the island here who got a bit for the that er damage with the storm. Storm damage. Mhm but there wasn't very many. Were they the ones that really bad? Mhm. Aye. What's erm what what's most affected . Oh I think we were one of the worst hit was Cruisbruk was aye. It was up on a height suppose. Aye. But it was during the night you see, the the nineteen fifty three one was started wayward nine or ten o'clock. It was more in the daytime. And did that do damage Aye it did a lot of damage the dykes and that. But not so much I think er with a lot of henhouses and that they were better battened down I think after the first year. But the hens eased off here for the the start of the the cultivate ley the land. They were growing ley and corn. More hay and that. So they didn't have much er of their of their feed for the hens. And they buy it all in, there was no pay in it. And then there was not much gro cereals grown here and then the mill stopped. Nobody working in the mill for they'd not much to do in the mill. Aye. And did the money . Well er the money was not you had to buy the and the there were nothing in it unless you went into choosing a a big system like the battery system. Aye. But there was a lot of them they used to work with er the oil lamps and that out in the henhouses. the hens eggs, they feed at night. Oh right . Aye. Mhm. But they light the lanterns henhouse might be about four or five o'clock and you maybe leave it in the henhouse maybe till nine or ten at night. Hens got extra feed and you got more eggs. And that worked? Mhm. Oh it certainly worked. But there would have been a lot of work for you boys Oh aye. hens who were once the oats were so were sown they had to they were closed down and that. And when we had a down near the banks dyke and it was fenced round and we used to carry the hens down there at night in a sack on your back. Oh. Mhm. Or maybe a a lot in a sack wheel them down on a wheelbarrow or something. And what what was the reason for this? We shift them down to the so they couldn't get onto the cultivated land. And then they left the then for the the younger birds . Give them a better chance. If you'd the old hens closed in with them they the young birds would have no chance. The old hens would eat all the feed. Mhm. Aye. Catch them with a dog and clip their wings. So you were what what were you doing at . Were you growing a lot of crops ? Well er grown in just in rotation you know working the land every five or six year rotation er and er you had not very much hay. And er then you see the then and . Oh aye, did all the cutting with scythes. Really. Mhm. Aye. We never had a we never had a reaper on on Greenspot. It it was all cut with a scythe until er well I started I go to Holland to work when I was fourteen and my brother Charlie he got away and my father and mother was left they were home. And they they failed then you see with cutting the crop with a scythe and they hired then a tractor and binder to cut the crop. Did did it take a while to cut crop this size? Oh it took a while. You would er it would all depend. you see if it was a fine stand crop you could cut quite a bit but if it was all raffled it took a while. Well they they were all no well you could maybe aye they help aye but er usually they had as much as they could do themselves you see. Cos any spare the men or that they were usually away for a har taking up a harvest. Earning a few pounds. work when I was fifteen, and I was away then for a while and then after the war when I come back I was working at at Cruisbruk. And then er working with them the tractor and binder did the cutting and that and we did the cutting and the leading . And Sydney at Antabruk. What was it like when you went into service at at . What were the conditions like? The conditions was not great. You got er twelve pound for six months work. Did you get your board and You got your Aye. Mhm. You just had the twelve pound for pocket money. You got your board and lodgings you see. And what did that Well er you at Holland I usually stayed home at night. I got Aye. Mhm . Aye but er some of the other boys that were there they used to stay at. They you see. And and er the the wages get up two years every half a year. Fourteen pound for the firs er twelve pound for the first half and fourteen for the second. And what did a day consist of roughly then? What time were you up in the mornings? Well er when I started then I was usually up about seven. And we worked from eight o'clock in the morning till eight at night. . With break for We'd start we'd do the cattle feed the cattle in the morning and then we were in for breakfast and then er be out then and er dinner then was usually about half past twelve and you started again on at two. And then in for your tea at six and then after you had your tea cattle. Aye. You finished about eight o'clock at night, you had about twelve hours so you're working more or less except for the wasn't very long.. Were you responsible for the horse or were you a cattle man? Well er I was a cattleman to start with and then it was the horse. Was that a progression up then. Mhm. Mhm. Why was that the case? Well I don't know, he usually usually had the one horse man and er a chap in the working . And er if it suited then if you a young chap when they first started for a year or so you'd be working with the cattle and himself, the boss, would be working the horse with a horseman. And then you get getting neeps and getting and onto the ploughing and than. And then er himself then would er be doing the cattle. Mhm. . No no he was just the tenant the firm were Holland. Ran Jimmy 's the name. He belonged to the mainland of Orkney. No he . Aye. From Evay, I think his brother was in Walkerhouse in Evay. Oh. Aye. And then when he left er Holland in nineteen thirty nine, he went to the Glebe in Birsay. What size ? Oh it was about three hundred acres. Glebe at Birsay then was about sixty acres. Mm. And what kind of food did you get? Oh the growth of the ground as they said. What was it your breakfast consisted of? Well er sometimes it might be porridge but it was usually just er the and maybe er boiled eggs and er oatcakes and and your dinner'd probably be tatties and pork or something of that kind. Mush the same at teatime. But you were well enough fed? Oh aye, well enough fed. Was there a difference in the conditions at different firms in Oh aye certainly there was. Right enough. You were better fed at some firms or others. And . They were fairly good. Aye. Mhm. And what kind of holidays did you get then you worked at Holland for how long? Two and a half year. Mhm. One holidays One week in the year. And you worked every Saturday and every second Sunday. There were no half days on Saturday or day off on Saturday. And you worked every second Sunday as a cattle look after the cattle every second Sunday. In the Summertime you didn't have so much to do on a Sunday. horse to water and things of that kind. But you couldn't really do very much . And the funny thing was even if it should be a rainy day. and we were maybe hanging around at Holland and not doing very much, the boss never thought of doing the threshing till after we for tea. Then we go out and thresh after tea time. And what did that consist of what did you used to thresh with? We'd thresh with a mill and engine. one chap feeding the mill and one the other chap then giving him the and the other chap was working below taking away the straw and looking after the grain. Was that a hand mill at that time. No at Holland there was a hand-mill Greenspot. Just a small er Tiny metal mill and a handle on every side you turned. maybe before I was ten year old, turning the handle of the wap mill as they called it. And there was the like for the corn and that we used to what we called hammling it was done with a flail. Ah . Did you you used the flail? Mhm. Mhm. Oh aye, we used the flail. . Oh it wa I've never seen one I've never seen it being used. No. It look can't imagine . It was alright, I didn't mind working the flail and the two could work the flail together. one standing opposite other one. And one was striking one time and the other one the other. Mhm. Oh right. Aye. Mhm. Was it efficient, does it work fine? Oh aye it worked fine. And I've seen when getting corn er just right er dressed for the mill, I've seen us er doing with a spade and that and a tub. Cup a bag or corn into the tub a big wooden tub and get a sharp spade and keep chobbing with a spade in the tub. That's what they call chapping corn. You just made the corn . In fact you made it too for seed if you did. The corn was too for seed it didn't go down. Er there come any rain, it just all come to the top. What sort of mill did you use the mill for did you put grain through the mill Mhm for for oats for oatmeal. And and lot of the oats and the corn they was roughly ground for the . That was feeding the pigs or the . But w as I said we did because we didn't have a pig. But we used to put the oats to the mill and the and the corn for getting it bruised for feeding the horse and the cattle. Was it quite a sophisticated mill Mhm. Mhm. Aye. They got a new engine in the mill er the start of the war I think. Cos an oil engine was in it for a while and then they put a new diesel engine in I think it would be nineteen thirty nine or something. . It was Mr that was the laird there. Mr oh yes I remember him and the wife died but I didn't mind er Willie aye, well i didn't mind him. And Mrs she was the laird for quite a while a while after the war. She was laird. Did she stay here at that time? No she only stayed for a few weeks in Summer So who was the factor here? It was er a James in Kirkwall. But he didn't live here? No no he just came up to collect the rent. And Oh it was alright. Was it quite fair . Oh aye he was fair you see the the rents on Ronaldsay was never very high, in fact the the rents in North Ronaldsay they're before nineteen hundred I don't think. No them's just the on the if there'd not been any change to the croft and that there'd still the old rent. No they seemed to be fairer than some of the lairds was. When I heard the stories about quite a tyrant Oh the s, aye well they they were more the bailiffs and that. Aye they were Aye. It was when the when the laird was out in India and that and the factor was stationed on the island. Yeah. Aye. No no well I don't think so. it was that was there at Howar there were a man . Yes. Mm. Who was at Howar in your time? s that came from Westray. Oh . No no there's nobody in it now. Mhm. Was Howar one of the big It was the it was the biggest next to to Holland. Thank goodness, aye. And then the next biggest then well Howar would've been somewhere about sixty acre and Kilbest was roughly about the same I think. And the next biggest then I think was about thirty six acres or so. There were a few of the houses about thirty six or forty acres. And a lot of the others then may thirteen or fourteen acres. Some of them down to six and seven. So Holland was by far the biggest. Mhm. Was it quite a good going farm? Oh aye. Mhm. Good land and that? Oh aye, a lot of good land on it. Gets a bit of sea-gusting somewhat but a lot of good land on Holland. And was it m mixed farming or what kind of farming Oh aye, mixed mixed farming, aye. Mhm. They worked at Holland worked with the hens and pigs, when I was there and the cattle. Usually just store cattle. Howar they used to work a lot with finishing the cattle sell them for . Take them out . Do you remember things like the wild white clover. Can you remember was that before Aye that was started afore I mind much about it. But er I mean it always er gained there was just a few working with it and they saw the improvement it was making and then everybody for the wild white clover. And did you was that . Aye, oh aye. Did it make a big difference. Mhm. It certainly made a big difference. What do you mean just in the the quality of the cattle or in the Well the aye, the quality of the cattle cos it gave you a better grass, better feeding before that you see they bought some clover. But it wasn't like the long white er the wild white clover but it did only did maybe a year or two. It was only a a grass seed and they used to grow their own grass seed and just bought the clover seed. And there was not a great lot of the clover seeded about until they started with this wild white clover. A lot of them worked with er coltsfoot it stayed in, it didn't go out with the sea-gusting.. Well what . Oh it was shorthorn and Aberdeen Angus mainly . And that's what you had at Holland? Aye mhm. Aye well there were some of the no there were no there were no at er Holland. Er there were at Howar when I was there. But it was just the shorthorn and the Aberdeen Angus that was at Holland. And do you remember You must remember sort of changes in the chemicals that were you know, that was used on the land in the in the time that you were . Oh aye. When you started, what kind of fertilizers did you use? There weren't used much first I started just seaweed and dung. And very little artificial manure. If they were short of ware or something they'd maybe put on sulphur or ammonia and super phosphate and potash and then they started then with slag. slag on it maybe er five or six years you get a heavy dose of slag. And that certainly helped land. And it made better grass. And who did you buy that . They usually some of them would just order it through the vil the merchants, through the shops here. And some of them would take it maybe themselves just or in Kirkwall. Did they come up sometimes selling Aye there some as come up travelling for seeds and for manure. And did it make a big difference? Oh aye it you see but er if you did put artificial manure on you see . Oh it worked all right, there was very little manure used when I was a boy you used ware. And you used to when you got home from school follow the plough and furring the the ware into the into the furrow. And it was Putting it right in and Aye, and if it was very dry you had to tramp it down with your feet. Some er furred at the front of the plough and some furred er behind the plough. It spread the ware . Was the ware better than dung? Oh dung was was best I think but er ware . Oh aye, mhm. Always something to do. And if you'd nothing to do then Eh? Oh aye, we'd have had in the process mind. You maybe deserved it. Aye. the sheep ? I think it was twenty I think. Well er the sheep they were usually only the ewes, when they the lamb so they were usually on tethers just on bits of grass . Then you had to flitt them every day when the wool started to get loose on them you had to the tether would get in a and you had to clear their tethers. Did you do anything with the wool at that time? Oh it was just sold we were getting as much for the wool then as for . Aye she used to Did she? Aye she used to aye she used to . What did she use it for For socks mainly and jerseys. Oh she used to make a lot of the clothes. And she used to I mean her making the jackets and that for us. Buy the dungaree and make a dungaree jacket. Took a pattern off an old dungaree coat or something like that. Was that . Aye that's common with some of them aye. They used to make the their own oilskins. Did they? Aye brought the cotton and my mother used to make oilskins they were I think it was . When I was a boy. But er afore she married she used to make oilskin coats and then er They painted them with er raw linseed oil. She used to they were made of cotton,cotton aye. And sewed on the sewing machine and then painted them all with raw linseed oil but raw linseed oil took a long while to dry but they soft. And if they were in a hurry they would maybe paint them all with what they called paint oil which was the boiled linseed oil. It certainly dried quicker but the oilskin got very hard and it was no time till it when you were walking. And did Aye aye. Mhm. all that material and stuff did they bought that or send for it or Oh they sent for the cotton or whatever to make the oilskins. The shop didn't sell that then? Aye the shop Aye. But they sent the wool away to Jedburgh for blankets. Aye. Mhm. Aye if you wanted like wool away and you got . And they used I think they used to do that with blankets. For blankets they would send so much wool away and you got blankets. Mhm. Oh aye. Mhm. Oh yeah. Mhm. It was where the last weaving loom was until well he was there at Upperbreck . And then er he got er well the land up at Holland . And he tramped back and forth to the loom. built a house there and got a house there. The laird I think er they did the work and the laird provided the roof and the all the woodwork I think. And he wove? Aye. He had the weaving loom I think at the whether he ever had it set up at the I couldn't say. But he certainly had it at the at the I think, it probably maybe still there, I couldn't say. What kind of cloth did he make? Blankets mainly I think. Well I just couldn't really say. Mainly blankets but they were awful heavy and blankets. There's some of them blankets I think'll be here on North Ronaldsay yet I think. Is it that wouldn't have been North Ronaldsay . Aye. It was I think it was . Mhm. Mhm. No. It was stopped a while afore I mind. Mm. I tell you something I wanted to ask you,Horseman's Society, was that . Never in my time but I've heard it spoken about here. Aye had the Horseman's word some of the older heard the Horseman's word but that was afore me time. No. No. What about farmers unions, did you ever have that conditions that you were working in . Oh no there were there were no unions no. Oh no. No never any any union at all. You were taken on as a boy and er you got a boy's wages but you were expected to do as much work as a man. You couldn't maybe do the ploughing and that but if you were out spreading dung you or neeps you'd to just the same as the men and the the man may man might be getting maybe about twenty pound in the half a year and the boys maybe only getting twelve or something like that. You How long did it take you to work up to getting a full man's wage? Well it'd be about two pound every half a year. So you had to wait Aye. Mhm mhm. Where did you go after Holland? Well I was er twice in Birsay at 's well after he left Holland. And then I was at Crantit. And then I was back at Holland for another four and a half year. And then I was four and a half year in Sanday. And then I was back here then and I worked er at Antabruk for a year and then I work at Cruisbruk and Sydney was at Antabruk then . What was it like at Holland when you came things changed a lot? Well er it was only I'd been a wee while at er Birsay and a wee while at Crantit till I were back at Holland but it was a different farm I was in then it was a bit different. . I was in er Holland. No no. No no. Same name but no connection but the same name. Originally aye. Mhm. And had changed a lot in that time then? It changed a lot basically the with the food and everything. different? Well the the idea of farming was much the same but he certainly was not very much of a farmer. Mm and was his treatment any different. Slightly but then him and me didn't get on. He never wanted me there in the first place. Oh. Well that's . Aye. Mhm. That must have gone on a lot Oh aye. Aye and then he'd leave. In fact he and then Craigie from Rowsay was in it for a while. And he away to Dale in and then the the s took it on and they've been in it since. And it's changed they out-winter the beasts there now, it used to be that the beasts was in all the time in Winter. when I was a boy of fifteen you were expected to to half acre of neeps in the day. Did what to do expect you to get on with and They expect you to get on They tell you what to do and you had to make the best. It must have been a long day for a boy of that age. It was long day you know. Oh maybe Aye. And what what was school like when you you were going to school ? It wasn't so bad er Greenspot was not very far from the school. . And it wasn't so bad. Firstly we had Robbie for a teacher and he certainly was awkward. Was he ? Aye. Did he . Aye. Who was the first teacher ? When I started it was with Ivy , and she were married in North Ronaldsay with the brother of Sydney, Roy . And she was the first teacher and there was Mi Mr who was the head teacher. And er Ivy got married and she stopped the teaching and died just that same year and then there was the a change for the both teachers. Robbie come as the head teacher and er there was a Miss that was er the pupil teacher. Aye. I never had , he was never my teacher for I was I was with a pupil teacher. Until he died and then I was just . And was it two teachers in the school. Aye, mhm. . There were thirty. so maybe but usually thirty. And what sort of things did you do in the in the . What do you remember. Oh I couldn't tell you very much about it. I can't mind . playing. Mhm. Played and and things of that kind. Tell me what is? Well they were usually a line of kids standing along the wall or something and one set out in the middle of the field and then you had to touch them and then you'd be back to the wall and they had to do it. You changed places one of them catch them . Aye. Mhm. Mhm. Aye and mind the lasses they used to play a lot with instead of marbles they were working with . The boys didn't play with No That's funny isn't it The boys was trying to play football or something of that kind. Or if the ground was kind of wet we used to er make slide then and skate along on it and if the ground got dry we would get a old bucket or something and run round to the tap at the tank at the back of the school and get a a lot of water wet till you could slip on it. And that Tell me about Rob Robbie this this teacher Was it Robbie ? It was Robbie Aye. What sort of teaching did he give then? Well he just well he gave us er algebra and geome geometry and maths and that we were no use. and he certainly had not much patience and we had never seen this afore. If you made mistakes you got the strap you didn't even get the strap just for mischief, you got it for for mistakes and that. Aye. Oh every day nearly. Depending on the mood he was in. Ah he was here for what twenty two from thirty two to thirty nine. Mhm. He'd away just at the start of the war. I was left school afore he left. I was when he left. I to the school after I was fourteen just for a wee while. Aye. And I wouldn't let him give me the strap then. What were you Eh? I wou I wouldn't hold out my hand I was fourteen. Really? Mm. If he gave me a shagging I tried my best to get me heel of my boot down on the stair, something of that kind . When you when you were a young boy I was gonna ask get off the island manage to get I was never away off the island until er I started to work at Holland. The first the first half a year that I was Holland I I don't think I was away for a holiday, but then the the next Summer then I was away . Just for er a few days. For the plane was started here then you see. What did you think to it? It was alright we were got a flip on the when the plane first was just started here, well all the schoolboys and that was er called out on Saturdays to gather the loose stones . Gather them in buckets or baskets and cup then in . And we all got a flip on Ronaldsay for our trouble. Was that Mhm. What was it like? Oh it was fine yeah. What was the plane like? Oh we enjoyed it. Was it were there many seats? Aye just was five or six I think. It was the we used er to go into Kirkwall with mainly. The old repeat planes. Oh but he was alright as a pilot. he did some of the flying himself but he had other pilots. I forget, was one of them and I forget the names now.. And what did you think plane someone who'd never been away from Aye. You weren't frightened? Oh no. No. Well was there mus much going back and fore in the boat . Not really that many there were maybe the the holiday trip to Kirkwall maybe just for the day into Kirkwall. My father was maybe in once or twice when I was a boy and he was maybe buying a horse and that but he was very seldom out of the island that I mind. And I don't think I can't mind my mother away at all. i don't think she was ever away for a holiday. Never away . Well she was in her younger days but after she married Aye after I was born I can't mind her being away. You know. My father was not often, maybe once or twice would for buying a horse or change a horse or something of that kind. He went into Kirkwall. Mhm. Mhm. What happened when you were . Did did you Sometimes aye, some of the drovers come out you see and . Mhm. Aye. Steamers were only used once a fortnight, if there was weather. Sometimes you'd maybe not get a steamer for maybe maybe six weeks if the wind was to the South East. getting er low on sugar and stuff er landed here with a plane.. It must have been a big difference when the plane was . Mhm. Do you remember that as being a Oh aye, aye well you see they had they had the mail service here before the war. To North Ronaldsay. And then er it was stop Hello Chris We play games on it though. No Has anyone got a ? I don't think it's, I mean Good communication though. Mm. Try A two see if A two's on it. Yeah absolutely nothing at all. what sort of resistance on that lot? Christina go to your lecture tomorrow Say again? ten o'clock drive down to North Shields with all speed. What's this ? All speed Then you don't need to miss your lecture. Oh no, right. Shame, bad luck Chris. Can you drive over with either Christina or Edward? Yeah Where was that man that wanted Is he willing to pay for them? Oh yeah whooo! Hurray ! Oh well done Lily. Oh I just wanted to ask you how to work the machine but it's done now. Oh right. Good. Oceans and climate, it's not currents it's oceans and climate. Who? We're missing out currents. I might have to steal some more paper later on Mm! but I'll give it you back. Can I switch the lights on? Yeah. The highly productive waters off once supported one of the most bountiful fisheries in the world but in nineteen eighty three the which produced the fish failed and the fishery crashed. Deprived of the which they the marine iguanas of the Galapagos starved to death. Arid equatorial islands were transformed by rainfall but their sea bird populations disappeared. had returned The climatic perturbations known as alminio seemed to occur every two to ten years. The nineteen eighty two to three event was one of the most severe on record and its affects were felt around the world. Large parts of Africa, India and Australia were ravished by drought while the west coast of the Americas was lashed by storms and torrential rain. The nineteen eighty two to three event was also the most comprehensibly observed so far. The changing patterns of sea surface temperature were recorded by satellite mounted sensors and they showed a region of unusually warm water travelling across the Pacific. But why did this happen? At the time a number of instrumented buoys were moored along the equator and were sending back information about the wind and sea conditions. In addition, large numbers of drifter buoys were launched into the ocean off Peru and for several months they were tracked via the Argos satellite as they drifted with the surface currents. You can see the paths of the drifter buoys looking like comet tails thin arrows centred on the equator show wind direction while the thicker arrows show current direction. Watch the buoy drifting westwards just north of the equator, as it approaches one of the moorings it suddenly changes direction with the current. Normally we'd expect these buoys to move west in the south equatorial current under the influence of the south easterly trade winds but during alminio winds become weak and westerly and buoys putting off the coast of Peru seemed to wander about aimlessly. Other buoys previously moving westwards now changed direction. So it seems that the weakening of the trade winds allowed more surface water normally piled up in the western Pacific to flow back eastwards across the ocean. But it's not as simple as that. Sea surface temperature affects processes in the atmosphere ocean and atmosphere form one system. Our work proceeds by trying to model this ocean atmosphere system and initially we made these models to develop an understanding but it turned out that the models worked pretty well to make predictions. Now in order to make a prediction of what say what's going to happen this year I would have to know the state of the system of the ocean and the atmosphere on January first and in order to do that in an ideal world I would have a tremendous amount of data about the ocean and about the atmosphere and be able to put it into this model but this data, by and large, doesn't exist. What we do have are some relatively scanty observations of the surface movements over the tropical Pacific based on volunteer observers on merchant ships. We need the winds everywhere and we rely on people in Florida state to take these very sparse observations and turn them into a map which covers the whole surface of the tropical Pacific. We then take those kind of and use it in an ocean to create the state of the ocean. Now we have the ocean and the atmosphere and we can go and we go forward and, in a good year, if we're lucky, the way the model evolves with the ocean driving the atmosphere and the atmosphere driving the ocean, mimics what happens in the real world and so we can make a prediction. Predictions have value of course because these are things which affect climate and affect people's lives, but also making a prediction is a way of trying to verify whether the understanding that we think we have about how the system works can actually be translated into equations which are put on a computer, and then when you let this go it in fact s does indeed do what the real world does. With increasing success at modelling changes in the tropical oceans, oceanographers are now aiming to predict global changes in the world ocean circulation experiment, W O C E for short. In this experiment we would be making measurements of the entire world ocean looking at essentially a snapshot view of the behaviour of the ocean during a five year period. Crucial to these observations are satellites, satellites have the ability to make measurements at least of the surface layer of the ocean on a nearly daily basis. Also the observations in all parts of the global ocean from ships, from moorings, from drifters on the surface of the ocean and floats in the interior of the ocean. This data set, coupled with extensive satellite observations, will give us for the first time a essentially a snapshot view of the behaviour of the ocean. Understanding how the global ocean works is important if we're to forecast climatic change. Pollution of our planet may already be warming the atmosphere and there's rising concern about what will happen at the poles. The polar regions of the ocean play a very crucial role in the global climate system. It's in these areas that the ocean heat is lost or vented to the atmosphere as this heat vent was carried into the ocean in the lower latitudes. In polar regions, as the heat is lost to the atmosphere the surface water naturally gets denser and it sinks and it spreads at some level in the ocean into the rest of the world ocean. Even under the equator if you go deep enough you'll enter water masses that were formed in the polar regions. This has an effect of cooling the deep waters of the world ocean and it also has an important climatic effect in removing excess C O two from the atmosphere. The north Atlantic in particular is important in removing excess er carbon dioxide from the atmosphere. Perhaps half of the carbon dioxide introduced to the atmosphere has been removed by the ocean, primarily occurring in the northern hemisphere in the production of north Atlantic deep water. The southern hemisphere polar region may play a smaller role in carbon dioxide balance but it is primarily responsible for cooling the deep ocean. Until the advent of satellites in the nineteen seventies we knew very little about the sea ice cover around Antarctica other than the northern fringes. The satellites revealed a rather remarkable feature in the Antarctic sea ice in that there are persistent open water areas even in the middle of winter when the area should be frozen over, the atmosphere is cold enough to freeze the ocean and yet, in these areas, the ice does not form. These are called poleniers There are two kinds of poleniers one occurs along the coastline of Antarctica and is essentially formed as the strong winds blowing off Antarctica just remove the ice exposing the ocean, and the ice forms in this now exposed ocean very rapidly and then it's removed by the wind. Within these coastal poleniers an enormous amount of sea ice could form and then is removed to the north dumping enormous amounts of salt into the shelf water making it very dense and setting up the stage for the deep sinking associated with Antarctic . The ocean er poleniers were also revealed by the satellite images and these were even more remarkable and perhaps more unexpected. In these areas the surface water is convected deep into the ocean and deep water then comes up to replace it. Now the, the elongated convection cells which carry the heat of the deep ocean into the surface layer and prevent the formation of ice. These are called sensible heat poleniers in that they're maintained by the sensible heat of the ocean. The most remarkable of the ocean or sensible heat occurred in the mid nineteen seventies, what's referred to as the Widdell polenier An area of about three hundred thousand square kilometres was ice free for each winter for three consecutive years. The amount of ocean heat that was lost to the atmosphere during the Widdell polenier events in the mid nineteen seventies was absolutely enormous. We have temperature measurements before the polenier event and we have temperature measurements of the ocean after. The ocean cooled by about one degree down to depths of three thousand metres, an enormous amount of heat was extracted from the ocean. However, although the polenier event is associated with cooling of the ocean, it may not have had a very large impact on the carbon dioxide balance. The speed of the overturning does not allow er an equilibrium to be reached between the ocean and the atmosphere C O two content, and this is probably true throughout the southern ocean. It appears that the main extraction of excess C O two of the atmosphere is accomplished in the northern hemisphere, associated with the north Atlantic deep water. And then the southern ocean's primary role in a global climate system is to very significantly cool the ocean. So how fast do the deep water masses carry heat and carbon dioxide through the oceans? Fall out from nuclear explosions has provided useful for water masses especially as the radio active nucleons are effectively time coded. Another group of artificial substances which can be used to track water masses are the fluoro fluorocarbons, C F Cs or freons for short. Water collected from the deep ocean contains gases dissolved in it when it was last at the surface and the relative proportion of these gases depends on their solubilities and their concentrations in the atmosphere. Denise has used a ratio of two C F Cs, freon eleven and freon twelve, to work out where water several kilometres deep in the ocean was last at the surface. The concentrations of freon eleven and freon twelve dissolved in surface waters have both increased dramatically since nineteen fifty but not by the same amount and so measuring their ratio in a sea water sample will tell us how old the water is. This equipment can measure freon concentrations down to just a few parts per trillion. Bubbling inert gas through the sample removes the freons which are condensed in a cooled coil. When all the C F C gas has been collected the cooling flask around this coil is replaced with one containing boiling water. The volatile freons quickly evaporate and are analyzed by a gas chromatograph. These twin peaks on the chromatograph are directly in proportion to the amount of freon eleven and freon twelve in the water sample. If we analyze lots of water samples taken at different depths at the same we can then plot a graph of concentration versus depth and get a profile that looks something like this. This profile is for samples that I just north of South Georgia in the south Atlantic in nineteen eighty six. The red line represents freon eleven and the green line freon twelve. There are high concentrations in the top fifteen inches, but when we get below the next layer, the concentrations become very much less and the ratio of the two concentrations doesn't change very much. As we go deeper, there is a slight variation at three thousand metres which we know corresponds to Antarctic intermediate water. As we go even deeper to five thousand metres the concentrations begin to right again and the ratio begins to change. If we now look at the curve which shows the freon ratios in surface water and look for a ratio of two, and lining this up with the nought degree curve because we're working with Antarctic water which of course is very cold, we can see that a ratio of two corresponds to the year nineteen fifty nine. These samples were collected in nineteen eighty six so we can calculate that the water is seventeen years old. Now we know that Antarctic bottom water is formed here in the Webber Sea and the samples that I've been talking about were taken here in the South Georgia basin, so we can see that it has taken seventeen years for the water to travel from here to here. It's not just water sinking into the deep ocean that carries information about conditions on the surface. The tiny alga cochilicus amenianarxia multiplies in the spring forming enormous milky blues. On death their placed as aggregate and rain down onto the sea floor where they dissolve if the water is deep enough. But scientists at the university of Bristol have discovered that, even where sediments contain no skeletal remains, two rather special organic are being preserved molecular fossils if you like. They're very similar except that one has an extra double bond. How we stumbled on this was that when we grew some of these algae at Plymouth with our colleagues there, we found that when we grew them at one temperature then these two molecules were present in a certain ratio but when we changed the water temperature then the er ratio changed. So we, we then wondered could this actually be a sort of thermometer for the water temperature? And we were absolutely amazed when, in going round the ocean floors, we found that indeed these molecules in the sediments showed a, a relationship to the surface temperatures above them at the present day. And what we've done now, and with colleagues from Germany, is to take cores off north west Africa, say about twenty metres down into the sediment, we sample them in the lab here and took the small amounts of sediment and examined them for these long chain compounds and we were extremely excited to see that as we went down this core, back through the last few hundred thousand years, we could see our signal on sea surface temperature oscillating about roughly in the same way that er has been found with other methods of getting at the past history of the climate. For example, where the last ice age was taking place in Europe, then you can see the signal of the lower temperatures in the oceans off north west Africa in the form of this sediment signal. Well so much for the sea surface temperatures of the past, but we've been looking at our records of the compounds in the sediments even more carefully and what we've seen in there are molecular fingerprints which do not match those of the marine organisms. So where are they coming from? Well we've fortunately been able to track them down to the waxes which er occur on land so what we're seeing here is a, an input from the land carried on the dusts which are blown in the winds from the Sahara and other regions out into the Atlantic Ocean. So this indeed looks a very exciting new development for us. But anyway, the whole problem we face now is how to do more samples because we're only looking at intercourse in the cores of, say, a thousand or two thousand year spacing, we've got to get down to a few hundred year spacing to really see some of the changes in climate that we know have gone on. How are we gonna do this? Well the only way we can see is to turn to the, to the physicists and the computer experts and to remove the chemical steps from our analytical scheme and use the speed and precision of the newer types of maschotrometer We already use auto-samplers for gas chromatography but now we need to bypass chemical steps. One device we are testing is an advanced maschotrometer system with three small maschotrometers coupled together in a series. This device should give us a single analysis in about five minutes rather than ninety as at present as we don't need to separate the mixtures, we can do the analysis directly. Really detailed molecular records at a spacing of a hundred years or less will be necessary to predict the climate change in the future and we'll really need that information if we're going to live safely on this planet. Now geologists have a maxim that the present is the key to the past but what we need to do is to use the past to predict the future. In the tropical oceans reef building corals have been responding to climatic changes for hundreds of years. They act as living tape recorders of the past. When we five and a half years of life of the coral from Isabella Island in the Galapagos the remarkable thing about this coral record is that it represents nearly three hundred and eighty years of continuous coral growth. Now corals grow under the sea but we didn't collect this particular specimen there. This specimen came from a reef that was uplifted virtually overnight in nineteen fifty four during volcanic eruption. This photograph taken several years before the uplift shows the dark oceans to the left and the grey volcanic land to the right. The has a small beach. This photograph, taken several years after the uplift, shows the beach now one kilometre from the present day shore line. This uplift brought with it many large colonies of corals one of which, this massive colony of , we sampled and brought back to the lab. So what can we learn about the oceans from this coral slab? If we look at them carefully we see a faint band in it but we can't count the bands this way, we can see them much better with X- rays. We placed the coral slabs on film, illuminated with them with X-rays and when we develop the film you see band patterns like this. The alternating light and dark bands form as coral growth responds to seasonal changes in the water temperature and cloud cover. Each band here represents one year we can age the, the coral by counting its bands just as trees can be banded by counting . We know very precisely the age at the top of the coral when it was uplifted and died and what we've done is counted these bands back through hundreds of years, back to the time when the coral first started growing and that was in the year fifteen eighty three. Now in the bottom part of this coral, the bands are quite widely spaced and are very regular. Now corals are very sensitive to changes in water temperature and these regular bands tell us that the water temperatures didn't change very much. Now if we look forward through time we see regular bands like this occurring through the mid sixteen hundred to sixteen forty, on up into sixteen sixty sixteen eighty still broad regular bands, conditions very conducive to coral growth, and in the early seventeen hundreds on up into the mid seventeen hundreds one can see a remarkable change in the character of the growth bands. If you look carefully at this level you'll see two dark bands and in between the growth . At this point the coral was extremely stressed, in fact large parts of this colony died at that time. This tells us water temperatures were changing and we believe this represents a major almenial event which occurred in the year seventeen forty seven. Well so far we've just been looking at the record of growth bands in this coral skeleton, but we can acquire a great deal of additional information by sampling the skeleton, and we sample the skeleton using a small drill and we can analyze the, the powders that we collect for the stabilized of oxygen. The oxygen isotonic ratios of the coral tell us the water temperature at the time the coral was growing. Now remember this coral is from the western side of Isabella Island and at this location water temperatures are primarily controlled by the of cold, deep water as the trade winds blow from east to west across the islands. If you look at the oxygen results and plot them against the year of coral growth we see cooler water temperatures and hence stronger trade winds during the little ice age prior to nineteen hundred. The coolest water temperatures occur near seventeen hundred and eighteen hundred A D which also correspond to periods of . The period between eighteen sixty and nineteen hundred is especially important. This was a time of very rapid warming at the end of a little ice age and if we can understand how the climate changed at this time, we're much better able to predict future climatic perturbations as the earth warms up due to the addition of greenhouse gases. A rise in sea surface temperature will lead to an increase in the frequency and severity of tropical hurricanes. Parts of the world now outside the hurricane belt may soon experience their destructive power. There will be more almenial events in the Pacific. Climatic perturbations in general will become more frequent and more severe. There will be more floods and more droughts. All these inter-related events result from the powerful coupling between ocean and atmosphere which controls our climate. We've got a hearing coming up on the sixteenth of July in Yeah. in Norwich or wherever it is. Erm we've sent all the paperworks down to er an agent there and we've still not heard from the other solicitors as to what this erm Mm. thing is but I'm pretty sure I can identify it Yeah. from the stuff that's now been introduced to us. Cos there is there appears to have been a display kitchen at some stage. So I gathered after Mr and Mrs were . Yeah. Erm just track the letter down where he said that. between February and March nineteen ninety. Two five eight nine seven two in which exactly er the amount that was Yeah. . Now I can't identify what these numbers mean but I think it relates to Mm. erm a display kitchen. It it says display account . Yeah. Erm creative cuisine, kitchen-wise . But i this was actually addressed to erm the Mansfield address. Yeah. So maybe that's why it's not come to light before. Erm I presume that the s are right in saying that this this relates to the display account at at Newark . Mhm. Yeah. I mean I dunno whether you whether you you may want to Well well I I as I er as both myself and my wife understood it, everything had been paid and then obviously when we got the letter saying we owed this amount of money it didn't come to light till Mr and Mrs came to see you and said yeah. Yeah. But they discrepancies on their side as well with credits owed and all. I mean I had nothing at all to do with t' business except I went in partnership with me wife and that. Right. So er obviously I didn't know anything about the money owed or we would've endeavoured to pay it off straight away when we went to the bank er originally when it went when it folded. Right. Erm there's two points really. First of all you've got to be satisfied that that actually relates to the unit that was at at Newark. Mm. And as I say the curiosity is that it it was actually addressed to Mansfield. Erm I don't represent Mr and Mrs as you know, although they've been in to give us a witness statement. Mm. Erm you're fairly Are you're fairly confident that they're not telling us a porky about this? Well I honestly don't know. We've had erm I wouldn't say a fall out but er we're on frosty terms to say the least. Right. This is doing me no good at all whereas it seems to be all me and my wife it's but like we went to court, Mr and Mrs who were equally involved in it Sure. are not, you know, haven't been petitioned or anything. Don't worry, I've told the solicitors that are appearing for us on the sixteenth of July that that's the situation, that the have not joined in all of the partners Mm. joined in too and that they they really ought to be invited to put the s in the frame as well. Erm so I think this hearing on the sixteenth of July will be quite useful in trying to be able to i identify that this display unit relates to Newark and not to Mansfield. Yeah. Assuming for the moment that is right then obviously that sum is is outstanding Yeah. er and to avoid racking up costs which is a thing that worries me That that's what I come to see ya yeah. erm I think that some sort of offer ought to be made. Now we we've got these suggestions that you have problems with late the later deliveries from Mm. which created inconvenience at the least and expense in you having to buy units from elsewhere customs. Er if we're doing the job properly as I said to you before we really need the invoices for various Mm. customers and how much it's actually cost you to put the jobs right. Erm but taking a very broad approach to it it may be that we can suggest to the receivers of that erm taking the inconvenience, the extra cost and so on, roughly say half of that account erm Mm. can be wiped out. Er and and just going through my mind at the moment Is that like settling out of court cos that's On yes I would settle for that. Oh yes. As you know I mean I'm only a working man Yeah. wi not an extortionate amount of wages and we've just had this two hundred pound for the to be transferred to Mansfield. Sorry what's that? Erm well I bought in two hundred pound on account for my cost to you and then Oh yes I'm sorry, yeah that's right Had a letter Yeah this weekend for another two hundred pound for if I get it right is it to fetch it over to Mansfield or their newsagents over in Norwich and Yeah yeah obviously you don't want to pay us to travel over there No So erm I'm just throwing this out as an idea that we perhaps we offer one half of this amount here Yeah. erm each side to pay its own costs Yeah. and we get the s to pay half of the half. Yeah. Well if worst comes to worst and they don't accept that Aha. speaking on my own for my own personal point of view erm if they if they insist they want this full amount Yeah. would it be possible for me to pay my half of that and the s pay the other half because I'm not i it it's really started to worry me and concern me a lot I'm now I'm sure that's right and includes a lot of interest as well That's right yeah building up every day really. I mean The object as far as I'm concerned is to try and kill it as quickly Yeah. as we can cos of the cost side erm I'm not happy about the way they've drawn up the writ because it doesn't say precisely wh it doesn't say what that invoice says it's only No. because we've done some digging around that we've actually got that information Mm. it doesn't say it it was at Newark erm and I think you've got reasonable prospects of knocking it back because of the problems you had with towards the end. So I think you know erm we've got no proof they were labelled deliveries or customers complaints or Er I mean the interest is one thousand one hundred quid so Yeah. we're talking about three six aren't you at the end of the day that's what they're trying to apply for. Erm I'll start on the basis that we offer one two fifty. Yeah. What I want to do is clear that with Mr and Mrs as well pay half of that Yeah. I think So does that sound okay to you? It sounds very good yeah But you're saying anywhere between those two figures personally you will pay half of the two thousand five hundred and eighty nine Just to finish it off yeah. I mean if they insist they want all that I mean I'll if they insist they want the interest as well then I'm in er a bit of a spot Yeah. Okay leave it with me. I'll er telephone them possibly I'll telephone them tomorrow and see whether we can sort something out. Thanks a lot them Mr . Okay I'll be in touch . I feel a little bit better at least. Yeah. Thank you anyway. Alright. Cheerio then . Ta-ta. Er shall I pop in tomorrow with the two hundred pound for Norwich then? Er yes if you wouldn't mind. Okay then. It may be that we don't have to use all of that. Obviously you'll get a refund if I can solve Yeah. this fairly quickly. Okay then Mr . Thanks a lot. Alright. Cheerio. Bye. Good evening . Good evening. awful busy today. Oh. Murder? Well and what can I do for you young lady? Erm well actually what I wanted was a repeat of my prescription, but I wondered why the last time I had one I got sixty instead of a hundred that I got before ? I wondered if there was a reason, if they were trying to put me off it or not but It's down here as a hundred. No I only got sixty. I haven't got the bottle with me because I was away. I only got sixty and I didn't get any the last time. have sixty but I didn't get any the last time. When was that? No. I've had a prescription since then Doctor . Let's see what they've been doing to you . It finishes tomorrow and it was for fifteen days . Tt. It's not gonna tell me . ? It doesn't like you at all. Oh dear. I'm not here . You're invisible. Oh gee thanks . You're invisible. No just a wee bit off not invisible completely thank you. Ah. According to t according to this you're invisible. . Tt. Stupid machine. Can't be doing with that way down there. That should it's found you at last. It's found me. Oh so I am at last. here. After all these years I'm definitely Still alive. here. Still alive. That's given me all sorts of things has it ? I don't know why. I don't why it's changed. I don't know why it's changed at all. Look there's one that's not in there. The last one I got is not in there. Well I don't know why it's been changed because Well I, that's really the only reason I came up was because I wondered if they wanted to take me off it, you know if you wanted to change it, because i it isn't working. Cos see if I miss one my toes are absolutely giving me gyp. ? Yes I have. Mm. Now see the ? Mhm. W does it matter if I don't take three a day? No. That's alright. Cos that's why I didn't get any when I got my last prescription because I'd been trying to just sort of even take one As long as you're at bedtime. as long as you're comfortable with That's alright then. That's fine. okay by me. Oh and can I have as well? I've only got a week's supply of that left so Well nobody thanks you for doing without that. Er no. My hands and my feet don't certainly . Oh dear. Nobody else suffers? Erm Only yourself? only me. Yes. Exactly. Nobody else? And grossly so. Here we are then. Right. Thank you. Right. Thanking you and have a nice Easter. Okay. I will. And you're on call? . Oh I will. Oh you're obviously on call. Right. I hope I don't have to call you out then . fingers crossed. I've got my fingers crossed. For a quiet time. Yeah. Right. Okay now. Thanks very much. Bye. What about hero in a ? Heroes in a . Yes! Are they? Oh I know somebody who wants some black boots, I might see some black Pull them off, pull, pull! Ooh I think I'd better go lock up my garage before it gets too dark. Ah. Yes. We're not worried are we? Ah no Come on wriggle bottom. Do they call you wriggle bottom at school? No. Oh ooh Kate! He was being silly. Well! You'll give me, I'll give you, I'll give you I'm gonna tickle you. I'm gonna tickle you under the arm. I'll give you a tickle Don't hit me again please, ooh don't. His front door's got one of those spy holes Oh yeah. Oh what's that I've never looked, I mean I've never looked, I've never looked through one and i i it's funny really cos you look through and the door,th the door that was near to there looks absolutely miles away, you're going through, going through a Yeah. Like a type thing? Yeah i it's n th that door looks miles away but I mean in actual fact it's not very far, ever such a strange Has he got the ? Yeah, three more. I mean two more. Oh so it's like in the back of three then ? Well I don't really know what it , not really Was it nicer than ? No but I mean well if he's got three other flats But it's funny I don't know really. I don't know, I'm sure it'll be four really. Well perhaps it's the shape of the if they go in threes and the other three perhaps approach from a different stairs and it comes up, you know the type I mean? Yeah he's got two To make, to make a to make an even number six or something Stop it now stop or she'll get burnt won't she? She's So anyway they want you know, a washing machine, I said a washing machine . well it's either that or the launderette and I mean that's, that's quite costly isn't it? I mean Well to buy very much else I think a washing machine I thought they'd got one actually I mean she uses her father's and th th they've been using . I said well I should get in as quick as possible It's a cooker and erm A cooker in there is there? No See last week they were electric one. Yeah I know. He, he chewed it all up. Out, out . I'm not gonna it on the floor. Would you like the dog? It could come and live down at your house? No thanks. Yeah. Right, hands up who wants the doggy down at your house. Three, three of us. go in the garden. Do you wanna go and live down in Katie's bedroom? Oh yes he'd love that Look yes he, wag your tail. Who's a good doggy? Ah! Wag your tail, yeah see He said yes. I'll provide the biscuits every week. Hold me up. Oh no I can't Katie, I can't, you're too heavy. Up you get, ooh you're a big lump now, you are getting a big girl. I like Well I don't What time did people start coming round this morning? I mean I looked out and thought well Sometimes er it irritates me when they come. such funny people Ah look where you've put it, poor doggy! Watch out Ben! Watch out, whoops. No we have to be quick doggy Yes the raft,the lifeboat all on the boat Yes, yes I think he is a bit of a Oh poor doggy Come on, give it to mummy. That's Give him a smack bottom, I love you oh Katie There's a crocodile coming, quick, quick quick, quick climb up on the boat, quick. All on the boat hurray Hurray. How about looking after your dog? Just just put it out of your mind Yes I think I'll have to go outside and get some stuff out. Dolly want to come with you. I don't want dolly out there. Don't you let that poor dolly go out in I don't want dolly out there. I don't want that doll in my car. She, she won't like it. You stop with me dolly. What's dolly's name? It's raining. What's dolly's name? Not dolly, what's it's name? Oh I don't think she's got a name Dolly It's dolly. I think it's Sarah. her real name is Sarah. Is it? Sarah? Oh that's a funny name. That's a very funny name. Has the carpet man been yet When is he coming? No on Tu on Tuesday. Oh it's Tuesday. Tomorrow. What time's he coming? Well in the morning. Ooh Well it'll be done by dinner time then. I hope so. We've taken the carpet out already. Oh my darling that will look nice won't it? And you've taken all the furniture out? Yes. Good. And I, and we took out. Did you? What did you take what did you take out, tell me? A, a small one. Ah yes Did you? Oh A a and I, and I, and it was very heavy and we both had to take it out. They did as well Now let me think if I can think what it was. Erm a stool for the organ. No, bigger than that. Er It was a real big a ch a chair? No. Scary Er a light? Er a t a t er else, let me think what else Scary boots. Scary boots? Don't Well yes, give me a clue. What's it begin with? It begin with K. Cupboard. Scary boots. Curtains. Oh er er er I'll tell you,i i it little door at the bottom er er er a small little gap like a drawer Oh yeah thing to put a table mat in and a drawer at the top. A sideboard. Yes like the half, the ha the half unit, you know we've got a The half unit. double unit and we've got a A half unit and they and, and they both carried that out together. Did you carry that? Yes that's very good. Oh you're so helpful now aren't you? I don't know how you manage to sit on anybody's knee But we had a job to get the tall one with the glass doors cos we had to turn it on its side cos it wouldn't go through the door, it stuck, what a performance doing that Have the spots gone? Yes I told them to, yes that one's going, that one's going, no more to come after this. And they're going really got, I've got more. Where? There. Are there? Oh they'll soon go stop You watch your legs Katie, they're lethal. Well at the moment they've got free fitting on all carpets is their latest offer but I don't know whether they've I know. cut the pri well not cut the price but when I, I Doesn't matter if I'd like something a bit l l like that and er he wants it all No. Well I would think that's probably the best idea Yeah I mean get the hall but he can't get the er you know Yeah, yeah if it's if it's thirty Well to go this week then cos they've got free fitting. Well I suppose They say free fitting, they'll most likely underlay, cos they're so clever aren't they? Well I still reckon it comes to ar I, I think, I still think they're good, good value Yeah. cos I think I think that it's swings and roundabouts Yeah. it comes to about the same Yeah. for what, the kind of, the, the carpet that you're going for. I'd tell him to go and ask at the gas sh offices for any erm shop-soiled Well he he's supposed to know gas fitters. some time, the thing in the shop, you know what I mean? Not you, it's that it's, it's been on show. Mm. Well you No no, don't put the nuts in your mouth, remember what daddy told you about the nuts in there. No, they're dirty ones Ben, put them back They could make you very very poorly. Yes bad nuts are terrible. Daddy, daddy What love? When can we go and get a ? It's in the garage? Oh yes. You want to go with me to the, the garage. Now what are you going to do in the garage? I'm just gonna sort one or two boxes out. And these have got to capture the gremlins if they run out. Yeah. Now no running outside cos it's too wet. I don't No we don't go out no we only go on the, no only gonna open the garage doors. Three or four minutes then because it's the Turtles today isn't it? You want to be home in time to watch that and no you're alright, you have about ten minutes with Nanny look after dolly. If you want to. Have your coat on then Put your coat on then cos it's a bit Leave dolly then about ten minutes. I wanna take her No, no you can't take dolly, she has to, well you can't go then. She must stay inside. No If you drop her she'll get dirty. What if she gets dirty, then you'll not be able to take her to bed Or you might somewhere and lose her. I won't, I won't get her dirty. No, no you leave no Sit her on a chair in the hall. That's it, she can watch for you coming through the door. What's this in her hair? Oh Katie! I didn't put it in her Oh! What's that? Cos I can't get her hair washed and clean now, look you've put some of that nasty stuff in. I, I I didn't do it. I tried to get some of the Blu-Tak off. Or Ben didn't do it. Well somebody's done it, it must have been the gremlins. I bought some Blu-Tak the other day Oh you bought some? Yeah. Oh Adrian could have got you some . Oh What? well I've never got any, I saw it in this shop Ooh! Ah! so I thought ooh I bet I never You'll have to get some want any now I've got some Yeah, can you pick it out? No. It's horrible stuff this isn't it? Where's your coat Ben? I wonder what the erm well I've take my tables out Ben Ben! Do you want to sit golly next, do you want to sit golly next to dolly? Yes that's a good Yes that's a good idea sit them together in the hall. that's a good idea. Golly sit next to dolly. Yeah. They'll look after each other. Good golly miss dolly You ready? Gremlin time! Oh yeah Left right, left right Just a minute. You excite them a bit too much Derek you know. Well I'm just make sure you behave your alright but just go a bit steady out the front there. Right they they've now. Oh that's growing. Yes. Is that have you done a side or? Yes. So that's Well that's it, I'm getting a bit Fed up with it Well not fed up but No, no I know well ready to get on with the next bit. We yes that's right. Yes I think this is, this is gonna be far too long er from what, in the end to Well I, I think that might be a better fault than it too short if you know what I mean. Oh yes, perhaps probably is. I think, I bet, I think you could wear it or put a belt round and make it into a it might not be, you can tuck it under, you know, put, like a blouse effect. I think it's better than too short anyway. Well I mean I've got to er alter this because I I've got to do a dropped sl sleeve but I couldn't Oh yes, what did you undo it, no way could I undo about that much No, and it's, it's a pat wh when you've undone it, as well, it's a pattern to pick Oh you can't pick the that's it. It's not as if you've got a couple of plain rows you can No there's not anything you can I mean at that point I would either do that, you know er change it or that would have been it Oh , yes. I couldn't fiddle No that's the couldn't fiddle with that so at least you, you know, you're not going to toss it aside if you change the pattern. No that's true. That's right and I thought well likes Well that shouldn't be er too likes the short sleeves anyway, been shocked if I'd got sleeves Is it going to oh it's a short sleeve one. Mind you Oh is that one with the and you have buttons down. I might erm I might see what the sleeve's like, I might er er wait and see how much wool I've got Do it three quarter sleeve. Yes I want to get the neckline done. At least if I do a dropped shoulder I might do the neckline before I do the sleeves, and then it once you've done the sleeve it's finished, you know what I mean? Yes that's a good idea. I feel done a bit of sewing up on the shoulders and then it's well on the way. Ooh this morning I thought blimey it's darker than ever this morning. Yes I thought it was really Ooh well I didn't really want to get out of bed and, well I don't have to when I'm not going to school I, I can have well No you don't have to rush. I mean ten minutes extra, but ten minutes seems like Well it's a lot I know. seems like an hour and a half when it's at that time I know. in the morning. And then I thought oh I really ought to get out of bed now otherwise it will be a rush and it was pitch dark as anything. It was An and e everybody else was, well Adrian's always sleepy, but both Ben and Katie were still asleep and I thought well It's unusual isn't it for them? I'll just leave them I thought well there's no real need for them to be up No I'm talking about quarter past seven, at this time, well there's no real need for them to be up now it's just that if they get, they like to have a a little bit of a play time. Ju well you know, I mean they can't get up to much but Yeah I know if you've got to hurry them up too much then it doesn't always go down too well but well in the end I went in to their bedroom and actually they were awake, they were just laying sort of a bit sleepily on the bed together on Katie's, both on Katie's bed. And they were, they were okay though but er it was dark. Well it,very good I hate the fog, you know, Mm well, Derek having to travel in it. It wasn't, I can't think whether it was foggy or not first thing, it was a little bit. Well it wasn't too bad, no, a little bit, nothing very much. I can't really remember. Just thought oh blimey, I mean he gets there Well it must st still be dark mustn't it? But, yeah cos I can never see what he's doing to you know and I think oh standing out Yes and cold and, well the damp I should think is bit rawified . is not very nice. Well he's not back too late today though is he? No. Er it's Monday's the worst, you know Mm it's the early. And it's after the weekend it seems a bit of a Yeah. bind to get up. Well when it's so early, yeah. I think in summer I mean Well i it's a lot to do with the, the how light it is, I always get up a lot more easily I think when it's, it's not dark. You don't mind getting up. Think you wake, well you wake don't you, as well, if the curtains I did get up but ooh I felt real, felt a bit yukkified , thought oh crikey knitting didn't inspire me and oh dear . Did you go to Andrew's this morning? No er, er no he came yeah I mean did he take you this, I should say, did he take you this morning? And I, yes he came and so he says I've got the keys to the flat he said, you don't want to come and look at it do you? And I knew he wanted me to. He wanted you to go, yeah. Yeah but I know what he means when he says he can't and I said to him I said ooh I feel a bit out of sorts this morning, sort of I don't know how you must feel having to go to work. I said do you get fed up? He said yeah . I thought he must do. Mm. Well perhaps, is there anything he can titivate doing in the flat see Well he's got it, he's, he said ooh I can soon I mean I know that's not very Not really. really very interesting but perhaps just for a start it might Well I think yes mm Have they got a bed and all sort of thing? Yes. Yes. I mean I said to him oh er what he's really got to get really is a cooker erm cos I said to him, I, I said to him if you really want to try and move in next week then you haven't got another week's money to pay for that, you know That's right. I mean forty something pound, well that's Well he can , yeah forty pounds towards your gas cooker isn't it? That's right, cos they're not paying on the other one then are they? That's right. If he's not paying till next week, next Not until Monday, I said to him I should move, get moved in this week. I said you can move in er you know I mean she's he said well would like a fridge and a little freezer on the top so I said well you can move in without that because you've got that fridge there it's just the gas cooker really I Mm. Oh he said oh I'd like to give it all a good he wants to clean it there's always something on the floor, it's like a erm lino, it's probably but all bigger squared Mm. I mean you could clean that up and it'd be alright. Is that all through? Yes. Mm. Same all through but he wants he wants, he wants carpet down. He said oh I don't mind cleaning he said but, he's like Derek, I mean I, ooh I can soon clean well he's a good, you know, cleaner I mean the bath, whenever he, blimey if ever he cleans the bath it looks ten times better than when I I do it. So that perhaps will interest him for a little while. Well I think, I said aren't you excited? He said yes I said well Did he tell you that Mandy had lived there before? Oh well yes, oh yes I knew she lived there before, but he didn't say with another No, I dunno why I said it at the dinner table yesterday really that was silly of me really. No I, well I just thought I don't know why I don't know why my reaction was what it was but I, I thought she'd never been very open with it No and I didn't want anybody to well it's just that Andrew had to you know, he, he, didn't, he d didn't said it, didn't say it in any very, you know, he said it very Matter of fact. Yes very, you know, so I mean I'm not to know that he'd not already told somebody else. No that's ri oh no. Erm i it was stupid of me yesterday, it was a bit silly. Not really, well I was stupid to Well I, I didn't comment like I did probably, I didn't mean it or anything. Well it's Mick really, you I don't want any No you know Well I don't think anybody No I don't suppose they would. Cos he, he, well he said she only lived there for two months. oh he said it, it was, he said it's a really funny thing er Mandy lived there, it's the same flat, she lived there ten years ago. I said he said yes sh with, with her, when she was first married, but she only lived there a couple of months. That was a bit quick. Have you had enough? said he found a gremlin. Ooh I don't, tell him to keep it there then, and I don't believe him anyway. Close the front door Katie. I have. Oh are you, no I meant, are you going out or staying in? Going out. Oh well I meant close it Close it when you're through it. because then I needn't get up. Don't run down the steps . Oh God what have I done here? Well Yeah. Well I think you see on that, as I'd sort of said to you before Yeah. made the same silly mistake I made before, go the wrong way. Think I've learnt it and just keep making the sa yes cos she'd crossed out divorced on that passport form That's right. I signed. She hadn't lived there very long though had she? No she said er, I didn't, I mean I didn't f I mean I never ask him anything No I never, you know, sort of asked anything after that, I just see what he tells me sort of thing . That's right. You don't really know whether he wants you to or not do you? Well becau well that, I thought well he'll te you know, he did say it very matter of factly I know, I, it's funny erm doesn't it? Mm. If she's, well I mean I knew she'd sort of had a relationship and Well maybe he thought well that's, somebody, that'll s that'll s that's that fact out, maybe he thought I d Yeah you know, cos I No. I mean thirty she is So she married quite young then, cos that'd have been Yeah about twenty wouldn't it? Yeah No. Ah but she perhaps is isn't she? And I mean she's so sort of closed about everything really, I mean he's not the sort of you know Well you don't get much said ooh, she's ever so excited she's ever so excited that she's back round, you know, that way as well. Yeah, she likes living there. Well I suppose home and He's not terribly keen on it though. Well no, actually what she said, said something to me, I can't remember what he said now and I said oh I said it's a start for you. He didn't say he wasn't keen, didn't say as much as that No, not, no, no he ju I just can't think how he put it now but I said ooh it's a start Well for you I said and I should think I said it's your, your own erm That's right the first time really been together in your very own place I said I should think you really, you know Mm. I said to And they've started to get a few things together haven't they? So they quite nice. I said yes well we'll have to pop round and see you when you've settled in. like it,now but it's alright where you've been but it belongs to someone else doesn't it? I mean at least that That's right. I mean if he wants to put a shelf up or That's right. you know, or remove some And he can, I he can without any qualms. That's right . And I said well you'll have an interest to keep it clean I mean I'm sure you just do it out of necessity when it's not your furniture. I thought erm Mick had spoken more about it, doing all her kitchen and everything than ever he'd Done before. done before but, but Yeah. in, in a way that I know there's nothing there is there? I felt a bit you know, er you can't sort of, do you see what I mean? I mean I think Mm. Derek said to me don't you think he'll ever go and live with her, I said no. I think they would have done by now perhaps would you not? I don't know. I said no you see she's she's a perfectionist, I mean being a perfectionist being halfhearted erm, you can't help it sort of thing, I suppose that, you know Well I know that from Adrian, it preve Yeah. it prevents him doing anything I know. C it's awful I know. Because I mean I've, I mean I know we're moving on the dining room but you don't know what I've had because he's wanted to do this, he's wanted to have the paper I know. but I knew Sheila that he wouldn't get done so in the end I said to him look we've so really it could have perhaps done with, I suppose if we'd been sensible it could, because it needed, the gas fire needs to come out, it does need a lot of, still really needs a lot of things doing to it. Mm. But it never But I found in order to get the thing moving You've gotta start you know, so I'm, I mean I, I, you know, I know that, and I know he hasn't got the time so Yeah. if we'd have started de it'd have been another six months, no disrespect to Adrian but, you know, I, I just know the history of how it would have progressed . Yeah I know that, I know, I know. I know because I, I mean you see I know I'm like that and I know I, I I have to look away sometimes with Derek And I know he's, he's having to, to comp I know he's started making a personal compromise I want a wee wee And I want to do a poo. Oh well Well you come upstairs with mummy. Yeah and Katie can go downstairs. Yeah, alright? Ooh my sweetheart No and I don't think he ever will my darling. He will. He won't. He will. No he won't He will. setting out to trick you. He, he's got, he's got to granny in, in the garage. Oh you don't believe him do you ? He's a monkey for Dolly's laying down. Oh she's alright, not too cold is she? No cos she's got her big skirt on. Oh that'll keep her legs warm won't it. Yeah. legs warm that dolly doll. Finished. You finished ? You going back out? I, I Go and ask Grandpa, oh you've done a little bit of a poo poo Oh! Where? I don't think it's too bad. It were a little windy-pop weren't it? And i and a, and a, and it, Well, well she was, she was standing outside, I mean I looked at her this morning and I've loo so I've sort of looked at her, and I was going to speak to her and then this fella walked up and I thought, I, I mean I couldn't gauge whether, and I mean my, I, I was thinking what I was going to say anyway, I was going to say er you know sa is it Paula so you perhaps don't remember me but I, I, and then I was going to say I'm Adrian, Adrian Just a minute mummy's talking to me. Look I'm talking to daddy, I've not seen him ye for a while. You know and I said I, I'm Margaret you know, Adrian from the City Council was you know I, er sort of thing like that, I was trying to think how I was going to say it Probably to speak to you first see if she recognized you. Well I just thought to say hello, not because I want to No, no to her but if I so I can say hello to some people, you know if only because er little girl, the little girl in Miss 's class now I, I to me that yes. that she, what is her name, Charlotte? Charlotte, yeah. Yeah well I think it is them, cos I'm sure I heard her say Charlotte. It's a special edition Escort five thousand two hundred So what's that, the S that, that's the The special edition. like what we've got now? Yeah. Five thousand two hundred? Yeah. Is this part exchange though? Pl on top of part exchange, yeah. So he's giving me five thousand three hundred part exchange so the car, that car, cost ten thousand five hundred. Yeah. Oh so he'll give you five thousand three hundred? That's not Yeah too bad then is it? No, that's a special edition Sierra That's a much bigger car is it? It's not much bigger it's No? it's like a foot bigger than a ni erm about four inches I'm just thinking about getting it getting it in the drive . measured the drive but it's only, it wouldn't make any appreciable difference. Or I can go for a brand new what I've had before, you know not the special edition So how much is that? Well that's five thousand eight hundred. To pay? Mm. So how much do you owe on that other one now? Three thousand one hundred. So I've done the sums roughly it comes to a hundred and ninety pounds per month repayment. Which is what do we pay now? About a hundred and twenty five. But worrying about the odd hundreds, for every hundred pounds extra or less it er affects the payment by two pound a month. Well yes, no, I mean yes the odd hundred. So in other words that Er just I think it for that sa it's four er er that's fourteen pound a month , the difference Er yeah. between that? Well ca I mean can we afford that extra though? That's another fifty pou seventy five a month. Do we, did we ascer ever ascertain when that other loan finished? That other eighty pound loan. No, no. As to whether you've got much longer on that or not. Have you not got the paperwork of that anywhere? Well not if it's not easy to get to. It's in the personal loans. Oh God. Talk about March eighty nine. What, it was taken out? Yeah. For how long? Five years? No I think three or four. March eighty nine, well that's three, coming up to three years then in I think it's four years. Oh that's a blow . Are you sure though Adrian? Because Yes. Sure it's three ye sure it's I think it's four years at least. March eighty nine. I've got the statements but I've not got the original paper. Well it's certainly, well so that's ninety, ninety one, ninety two I wouldn't have thought it would be four years Adrian, they only ever do it three years or five years d don't they? No. Oh you can have it anything you like? Yeah. And how much was it, eighty pounds? What, we pay a month? Mm. Eighty three pound thirty nine. Oh no yes. Well I'm just thinking it could be three years cos I'm thinking what I borrowed what did I borrow, fifteen hundred? Oh it'll have it three thousand two hundred was the loan. Three thousand Oh I think it's, I think that's five years. Oh what a blow. Three thousand was it? Blimey that got up didn't it? Oh well. Yeah so we're in a lot better state of affairs than er well I must get on. So when, when's this kind of deal open to? There isn't a you haven't got to have it, this car sort of this, these specials, when are they Erm when have you got to, have you got to make a decision on those sort of No not really it's just that Quickly I mean the car's sounding pretty ropy at the minute, needs a new exhaust. No I meant this, this, these this off well not offer but what, what deal he's offering you now here Well you don't know, it depends on the car trade doesn't it? If it picks up then In March time the new engine is coming out on the Escort. I mean the Sierra, it's a good offer on the Sierra but it's, it's like the basic engine and I do like a car that you know, you can put your foot down and it What's that an eighteen hundred then? It's a six No six sixteen hundred Escort er engine in a Sierra which is a heavy car so it's Oh it's not gonna go so fast then is it? No. If you want to put your foot down then I wouldn't have thought that was the car you wanted. I'd have thought you perhaps wanted to go Another sixteen well or a Sierra with a bigger engine but then it's getting more expensive isn't it? Mm. Well why don't we, I mean at the moment the children are still you know it's not as if we've got vast amounts of extra luggage if you go on holiday and if so you just have to have the roof rack on. I mean they've got, we've got past the having to have the pushchairs in the boot now Yeah. erm stage perhaps go for something like that for another couple of years and then yes, I mean when they're getting a bit bigger and they They're not really and they take a suitcase each Yeah when we go on holiday I think perhaps another Escort. Then then go for that one perhaps. Mm. That's just gut feeling. Perhaps if we, if I went to a Sie Sierra it'd perhaps be nice to get one when I can afford one with the power to match the the size. Yeah. I think you might be disappointed in that Mm. because if you're expecting it to perform like, I mean it's not gonna perform like that if it's the sixteen hundred in a heavier body car is it? It's g you know,i if you, if you want it to respond well I mean as well that i if you say that's a bit ropy that other one Yeah. you'll probably find a new car Well the only thing you realize how two colours, well it's that, it's like a What? metallic er blue mauve Oh. er or a orrible burgundy. Yeah. Yeah there's some nice new features and that on a standard Have they got automatic windows? adjustable steering columns, seat height up and down, automatic front windows, car alarm radio data er radio And what's that mean? It means, it's the new system where as you're driving along, whatever you're listening to it automatically interrupts to tell you of any urgent road delays. It's a special signal or you tune in, not to a certain frequency, but to Radio One and then wherever you go in the country it, it tunes in to the best transmitter. Oh. That's clever. That's, that's, yeah that's the special edition which is the one er just, you know, to try and help you sell better and that's the, that's the other possibility, the What's, is that the ordinary That's the ordinary sort of what you've got brand new specification. Have they all got these funny spoiler things Yeah. on the back? And that's like an old specification tarted up to sell a few extra cars. One point three engine then. That, so it's not Well he said it were one point six but that says one point three and I really do sh well I want a one point six. And what's that one? Five eight? Five thousand eight hundred. There we are sensible, family minded. Integral roof rack. And believe it or not it fits on, it'll fit on the drive. Would it? It's only it's a bit of an optical illusion isn't it? When they, looks hugely long Well here's the specification, length, Escort four two six eight so it's about two point three, sorry two hundred and thirty millimetres longer, so it's less than a foot centimetres, less than a foot less than a foot longer. Oh I don't, no Ooh well, I'll go to Central, see what they say. The, I mean the other thing, have I, have I said that the new engine Well you said that there'll be a new engine in March in Escorts. Mm, what, to have one of the new ones? yeah more powerful, aluminium Do they automatically come now wh having unleaded petrol or do you still have to Yes Ooh I must look out when my M O T's due. I don't know whether it's February or March. Cos I'm a bit worried about that er Yes What we've got two ? Yeah we've got two. Oh have we? Yeah. We've got two darling. I had one at school. Or buy two brand new Fiestas. What I'd really like for us to have, and this is some time in the future, is one nice sort of saloon type car for best For best ? for best, yeah Yes. and then a little, a little runaround, well like one of these erm four wheel drive Daihatsus Yeah, and then a Fiesta? No two. Oh. Two, two Well you could drive a four wheel drive Daihatsu,great across those country roads. Oh well I going across those country roads Can make it sort of drive up mountains and things Get stuck in what's name wood. So I will go to Central, see what they say. Well do you want, would you like to come and look some time with me? Yes if you want me to. What's this about the gas? It's the service statement. Let's just take your coat and hat, ooh N no he's gotta read it. They've gotta read it. He's got to read it, right. Yeah. Now listen to what we're going to do now, we're going to mummy'll get you some dinner in a minute, are you hungry? Yeah. What are we having? What would you like? Would you like a boiled egg and soldiers? Yeah. And then a little while after dinner ooh, mummy's going to Morning Hello. carpets? Yes Thank you. come in. Dining room isn't it love? Yes. Just round here. Sorry. Erm can you take it,take it round to the in there as well. And then, I don't know what you're going to do here but we are going to have a new hall and stair carpet Yeah Well I mean I don't know what you think is best, I mean er within this year we're going to have a new hall and stair carpet as well. Yeah so the door strip has to go in there? So when the door shuts you don't see it. So yeah, what I'm saying is if, if we do have to have a little gap Oh right. at the minute because we're going to be having a new one here anyway. Yes. Alright. And then the other thing that you've maybe got to do is I've spoken to er your office this morning because our card actually has expired, it expired a year ago this is how we're going to pay Yeah? erm and er in the meantime, we had some lino down on the kitchen last year and they keep saying they're going to send a new one and they haven't and they haven't. So could you phone up er your office because I cleared the fact that we can pay with this card cos I thought you might look at this and say well look it's expired. Right. So if you could phone up them and Yeah. And you've already had a word with them? And I've already spoken to Right. erm because we've got, I mean we've already paid two hundred Yes I'll sort that out. Okay so if I, and then if, how long is it going to, to take you to do that? I only wondered because I've got to go out later, I need to get somebody else to come in and, and be here but if I think it's only going to be about that. Should take about three quarters of an hour? Right. Can I get you a tea or coffee? some tea if that's alright. Katie Yeah? Do you like the carpet? Yeah. Have you had a look? Yeah. Looks very nice in there actually, I'll tell dad Hello, can I speak to Adrian please? It's Maggie, is that Eva? Hello, just to tell you they've finished and gone now so I'm well within my time schedule. Looks very nice. Yes, yeah. No cos it, it was straightforward I think and doesn't look to be too much wasted, you, you know they leave all that so I'll just it a quick, a quick, really a very quick hoover but I can't get to the bit where the waste carpet is but er yes it looks nice I think. And there was no problem with the card and everything. Okay then? No, no okay then, I'll see you later. Yes. Well I think it's better if I don't say anything really, but try to be there as soon as you can. Okay? Mm Well right okay then right, bye . Now then we'll have to go to Nana's in about ten minutes Katie. Right. Over to you Oh sorry Do you want to put that on the full screen? Right so here we've got er the criteria surrounding P L C. I'm gonna start in reverse order. I ain't gonna start with the strengths we're starting with the the threats basically to to that s er . Basically it's in the news at the moment and it's er very prelavent to the criteria surrounding the company at the moment. So reading down there number one threat, the shareholders. And most of you are probably aware that last year the the company tried to renege on their P L C P L C status and buy out existing shareholders erm and the furore surrounding that erm the price that they were trying to repurchase the shares from the existing shareholders er caused a lot of discontentment er surrounding that scenario. So the actual shareholders themselves, I think there's about forty one thousand of them,in total are quite a big threat to basically the the management of the company at the moment with regards to the direction of the company and the actual opportunities er for the future expansion and development of products and various market segments etcetera. Sorry Oh terribly sorry. I didn't think we'd started. I won't repeat it Can you can you say that again? Right d developing the angle on the shareholders is the non-executive directors. Erm within the last two or three months I think they've appointed three or four non-executive directors. Erm the main difference between a non-executive director and a director basically is that the directors are added to by the shareholders and are re-elected at the annual general meetings. These people are basically independent to the company but they are appointed basically by the directors of the company in a capacity and basically er another safeguard or a check on the actual management what you would call management er governance of the company. And it was one of the critici criticisms that came out of the er I think it was one of the annual general meetings non-executive directors in there to oversee er basically as another control against Mister himself I suppose really at the end of the day. That's what they're trying to aim at. Moving down there, market barriers. Er and that basically erm entails the fact that there's er a lot more er competition basically coming from Eastern Europe. It's not just er a case of er North America dominating the computer scene there erm er tariffs and trade barriers and what have you erm in various non E non E E C countries which i compose quite a stumbling block for future and expansion in various developing countries. Especially the Pan-Eastern Europe er Pan-Eastern Pacific area. Which is quite a fast developing and growing area at the moment. Overseas competition basically there again is I mean er erm okay I mean I B M I mean they're collapsing day by day and companies like I C L and what have you. And basically it's it's the actual thrust of overseas competition basically. Not necessarily Eastern Europe but also from the Pacific Basin again there. So we're looking on Global terms here erm basically and also within the E E C so basically to get market penetration. You can't just sort of think think about North America get it in isolation, you gotta look basically as E er Euro P L C market place. The economic climate obviously the present economic climate in the U K, E E C and the world is not exac exactly er assisting in any shape or form with regards to the development or growth or even stability. Erm so basically it's not just er a threat to the the actual market in general it's an even more acute threat to individual places within that market. As er competition becomes even more fierce and er competitive and yeah well the threat of threat to the the weaknesses which are connected to some of the threats actually . Right okay we'll work form the top down actually. Alan there quite a big weakness within the company. Erm by the city in the city institutions of London he's seen as quite a a robust character but they don't quite see eye to eye on the issues of the company. Public relations well as I've already outlined there the actual fiasco surrounding the proposed er share repurchase there was a public relations nightmare form beginning to end. And also with regards to product development and actual er image of the company there, the relations side is quite weak. Financial performance that is basically the financial strength or weakness of at the present. Obviously it's losing market share price competition impinging right down to the bottom line left right and centre. It's actual product range is very fragmented. Erm basically leading down there the products and corporate strategy there they're having difficulty identifying what their product range . Who who their individual competit competitors are within those product lines. So they haven't actually gotta formed a corporate strategy on the actual prod product development. Financial individual erm competition within each market segment . Opportunities. Right here we go yeah number one opportunity satellite T V. And that nost that is not necessarily just based within the U K. It's it's it's the thing that's er keeping them going in various aspects but obviously, definitely on the European scale there er satellite television is an area which I would be very very surprised if they did not er develop a hell of a lot more. Infrastructure, that's related to the actual infrastructure of the er microelectronics, electronics and computer software market within the U K as as a rule. Erm basically as a new market opportunities come he's gotta develop er and adapt to those any new opportunities that do arise. Be it new products, new competition and new markets that do arise. And I mean the actual the U K market those in those areas is quite developed and has got quite a reputation but obviously it has got to be able to develop develop and adapt accordingly over time. Market demographics yeah. Erm basically it's er like the collapse of I B M makes a the total world market, things like that. And that's gonna create opportunities but also er the possibilities of joint ventures be it on a U K, Europe or the world basis er joint ventures will I mean a lot more cooperation between er th the large players with regards to product development what have you. Rath rather than competing against each other to develop basically their products have gotta be ab able to work with each others machines. sort of exchange technology research and development. And that basically that amounts to standardiz standardization of products. So basically I B M P Cs and things like this like that. We can actually er use various actual computer equipment er open systems er recently new development as well which basically a lot of companies have been inputting their share resources to develop this area. Er the market we're looking at there the Pan-Pacific basin there especially showing a market at the moment. till the end of the decade er I think it's number one d er developing market so that's the place that you want to get into. The last they have actually got some strengths. Erm number one strength Alan erm although he doesn't see to eye T eye eye to eye with er a lot of the city institutions and a lot of the shareholders erm he he does know his business erm and he has quite a strong character, very forceful and . So he's er in quite a strong position with regards to the actual corporate governance and strategy of the company there which is . The management staff, good quality staff, very high highly technical expertise etcetera so they've got staff there. Non-executive directors, that is a strength erm it's also a threat but it is also a strength but basically it's acting as a sort of yardstick to control or actually guide the actual management right down from board level right down the company there. Research and development. Well I'm only gonna a month ago they did actually er officially announce the launch of a product there it's the pen writing pad personal organizer there. So basically it's like a little computer there and it reads your handwriting basically on your little electropad there. like a glorified er filofax. Two hundred and ninety nine plus VAT is the retail value . Erm which is points up a weakness there on the public relations side there I mean going back to their post share repurchase they said that they'd got no new products in the pipeline, no research and development really sort of throwing anything up in the near future . Two or three months after that he's got a new product out they're trying to keep it slightly quiet and saying that it's not a world beater and sort of er go back to their more in innovative . But there again that's the shareholders er don't see you know like to get a bit more er information and good public relations for the company. And as a general outline it's a strength of the company U K P L C the actual computer market within the U K has worldwide reputation for its quality, technical expertise and it has already got a good er holding in various companies all around the world. A being on a telecommunications base and the actual software associated with that as well. Erm thank you any questions? Could you leave it on the the er projector there Right yeah. thank you. Right anybody like to make any comments on that? It was quite long. Pardon. It was quite long. Quite long quite long yes but I don't worry about the length the content at the moment. thought gone into that isn't there? Yeah. Er one observation I would like to make is that you actually got certain items appearing in er more than one place. Erm that tends to be unusual but in this particular case it is very relevant. And the the fact that you've got Alan there in the strengths and weaknesses is without Alan may struggle significantly because it's it's his management style, his vision which drives a company on. But the the weaknesses is that er he because he's a P L C then he's got to erm kowtow to the system to the er the city and therefore erm that is always going to be seen as a problem for him as am individual. He's gone part of the way along the r road by doing what you've just been describing non-executive directors but erm it could be a weakness if he's seen as a er erm a business man and cavalier as opposed to somebody who fits in with the style that the city's always looking for. Yeah? Any other comments? Alright well let's leave that one for the moment. Erm thank you very much Brian and the team well done. Next group Now I'm sorry I haven't brought an acetate. You haven't you're gonna draw right okay. No oh just Did you want a pen then to write on the board or not? Erm There's a pen there. There's lots of them There's lots of them okay well Erm it's entirely up to you if you want to write up you can. There's a pen I think in the white box behind you. But if you want to talk straight that's okay. Yeah right okay I'll talk unless anyone wants me to erm put them on the Right. board. We've chosen er British Rail for our slot as opposed to Waterstones. And I'll go through some strengths that we feel they have and the monopoly obviously is one of the er major strengths. Intercity gives them a very good image if your journey was on time but it's definitely there as a a positive thing. Erm straight into the city centres of most major cities so you er if you travel by train you're there in the centre if that's where you want to be. Erm with the electrification we feel that it's a very clean and green way of travel. Erm bulk movement of materials and the national network it has. We opportunities are privatization but we've also said that is a threat. Er specialist trains would be an opportunity we felt and the history of er trains to emphasize that. The communication that they now have with electrification. Franchises and train leasing we think are opportunities but still possibly underneath the er umbrella of British Rail. Weaknesses, inflexibility of working practises. The image erm particularly on the time keeping of trains. Aging rolling stock particularly in the Southeast. Overcrowding on certain trains. Poor safety record. Erm vulnerabilit erm vulnerable infrastructure and poor customer relations. The catering we feel could do with erm er improvement. I know they've had several attempts at that but we still don't think they've got it right. And we think er in some cases it's very expensive. And not happy about the structure of pricing for travel whether you have a single or return or s erm a saver they er they don't seem to make sense in many cases. Erm the weakness is er government requirements often inhibit . Er threats,again as I said privatization, lack of funds,road haulage,safety erm again bad. open profits making lines will survive we feel that's a threat. And er because of that then the price is out of the range for a lot of people to travel by train. And coaches long distance travel are coming in so that again is a threat to the erm using British Rail. And the economic climate which we think is obviously a weakness . And those are what we've thought out for British Rail . Thank you very much. Thank you. . Any questions on that any comments? Yes I don't agree with the poor safety record, in in in my view and I think it's supported by fact that rail is the safest way to travel anywhere any time. Erm this is quoted funnil finny enough by air travel,that without question rail is the safest way to travel and in fact to me that's a strength not a weakness. M my my view of that was that's the one I'd a question mark against Yeah. cos I don't think it's the problem of a erm a safety record I think it's the perceived Right. safety record Yeah. it's the perceived safety record yeah because in fact the statistics show it to be very very good indeed. Yeah. Erm and it's a bit like timekeeping I mean they they've got their own system now for evaluating how good they are at time keeping and I think the erm the figure they try and hit is about ninety five percent isn't it of trains arriving on time. I think it's the image that so many trains are late. Yes It's the image that Yeah Well that's the problem. That's the problem. Again if you think about how many people actually provide their goods on time to their customers ninety five percent of the time or provide the goods and provide them on time that record is their record is very good. It's the perceived But Gordon haven't haven't Yeah yeah. British Rail shifted the goal posts on time. Yes. Right. Because they couldn't meet c couldn't meet what they were previously doing they have altered it in such a way as to make it easy to achieve. They've just added time on to all the journeys. Yes. But they've they've been doing that since er last century. Yeah but you gotta remember these are that these are being posed on basically They'd be setting their own goals, targets and what have you. Yeah. And they're having these X billions to finance er capital investment cos cos they're not a private company. I mean the furore about actually leasing trains has taken several years to develop erm And you just have to look at at the moment now and he doesn't know if he's sinking or swimming basically. Er a complete dead loss about which way to go and turn basically. Yeah yeah. Erm you go back onto the performance guidelines that have been basically imposed citizens charter really at the end of the day. Well yeah I mean But a lot of I mean I mean there's no sort of set- up and strategy for rail as a sort of within an integrated transport policy phone call from er John Prescott who er Tories in in transport. there's no sort of like ten year corporate strategy for British Rail. You were gonna make a point there. Well I was gonna come back on this record of safety. I mean one of the points we made there was that the infrastructure is vulnerable. I mean just because it might be safer to travel on the train doesn't from the fact that the incidence of where people gain access to the rails and there are near misses either to the drivers or the people on level crossings or everything else. They're all added in just because they don't have an accident doesn't might go for making it the safest infrastructure perhaps. So safety is a thing which is can't just be said Oh it's it's safer to to go by train than it is to cross the road. It's getting worse. It depends if you're in the right place at the wrong time or the wrong place at the right time. I mean y you you take a situation of stuff getting dropped from bridges ont in front of trains. You know quite apart from the fact that you get a situation where somebody sets fire to the infrastructure and it closes down the whole of the East coast main line like it did two days ago . It's vulnerable. but nevertheless its er its safety record is still a damn site better than the roads. What did you say about the cost ? Yes well the thing is that the erm we feel What it's the structure for the a for the average person. If you're if you're say a family with small children yes you can get all sorts of con concessions. If you're a student you can get concessions. If you're an old age pensioner you can get get concessions but for the average person who who isn't one of those no chance. Well the the situation is also that it's confusing in terms of Apex, Supersavers, Savers, Nonsavers er you can't travel on these trains at certain times, you've got to plan your journey three months ahead if you want to get the maximum savings and all the rest of it. You know i it's Yeah you wanna have subsidies yo that you get on foreign rails you know you get Well that that's one of the arguments for remaining under government funding. next to nothing can't you over in some countries . So it's confusing or overcomplex Yes yes it is yes that's right it is. Yeah. Yes I mean we can understand that if you're gonna get a cheaper ticket you'll have to book well ahead and obviously they've got to to try and ease the the overcrowding on some trains. There's one other point The sa the same applies for pricing virtually to anything else if if you're going to take the maximum advantage of flying by air you either have to book it well in advance through a package or whatever or whatever or else you'd have to go along and sit in a bucket shop hoping that somebody's gonna Yeah that's right. turn up with an empty seat. It's not as not as simple as that though. I mean if you walk into the station on a day wanting to get on a train there are still several different fares you can pay. is different from the cost per mile down South on tickets as well. there's no standard thing over the Southeast market cos they've got a captive market. Why does it cost me ten pounds fifty return from Darlington but if I take a single to Darlin to Darlington from York it costs me ten quid. Yeah that's right. I mean anomalies and there's different prices if you go from Cardiff to Bristol it'll cost you X amount if you go Bristol to Cardiff it costs you something different. They wanna get their act straight. So it's the over-complexity of pricing. Yes. Yeah. I I had er a return ticket from York to Gloucester and I was fortunate enough to get a lift back so I went into the station to ask if I could get a refund on the other half of the return and they said Sure you owe us four pounds. Because the price of a single was almost the same as the price of the return but to get a refund you have to pay an administration charge which when you add it all up comes to me owing them four pounds. And then they tried to take and I said Well thank you very much I won't have a refund after all. and they tried to take the bloody ticket off me. Oh I'm surprised they didn't charge you for the cost of a single journey. Right okay any more points ? Erm another strength I think erm and this is once again point of view but it it literally is er is the track itself track access. You y if you set out on a train under normal circumstances you're confident that you're going to arrive in London at At some point soon. As my daughter did on Sunday in two and a half hours. And er on the other hand you can get in your car and you can get down to suddenly find they've got the the road up or E G as we did coming down to York today there's driving his his er surface lifter down the road and and er you're stuck in a traffic jam for a wee while er It can still happen on the train now now you're guaranteed you're you're stuck on electric all you need is one fault at Northallerton two days ago and you close the East coast main line completely. it's more it's more Everybody who was on those trains it's more unlikely. Yes but on the trains you're stuck. Now in the car you can say Oh sod this I'll back-dive and double, drive this way, down there and you you skip it. When you go and buy your ticket and you're setting off on that day Mm. erm you're warned in advance of any delays aren't you. wonderful wonderful last Easter weekend back from Glasgow we were warned there was gonna be delays and we were fortunate we were one of the groups who came back fairly early. There were other people who started back at midday from Glasgow and got to York at midnight to find all the loos had been closed and things like that. When it happens with a train it's it's one hundred percent you're absolutely stuck with the thing. you know if you've ever been stuck in this you know you've got an appointment somewhere you know the the frustration's incredible. The sa the same thing can happen with air travel. blooming airport overnight. Or else you can be on the way back from from from Europe and suddenly find, Oh I'm sorry that plane's not leaving tonight Mister would you mind going and spending the night in the holiday hotel in so and so and so and so. Ah you spent the night in a Holiday Inn great on a train you're stuck on the train. It doesn't make The same thing could happen if you walked out of here this afternoon there there could be a bomb s threat between A and B wherever you're going and you can't even get round a bomb threat on a train than I would in an aeroplane Robert. Okay I think we'll as I thought we could actually start the discussion Well who's gonna who's gonna be using the erm Erm right er can we make a start ladies and gentlemen. Erm good day er my name is Philip er I am the quality controller for the proposed Water Company. Er and I'd like to introduce you briefly to the company. Erm as the result of a a board of directors decision taken on er March twenty second nineteen ninety three it was proposed that a a new public liability holding company named the Water Company be formed er from the capitali er capitalization of assets currently surplus to requirements of the founding company namely . Er the York based company will be a wholly owned subsidiary of limited. Er trading is er expected to commence within the with the naming of the company at an opening ceremony at the registered office headquarters in York. The ceremony to be held on the twenty fourth of April nineteen ninety three. Er it is proposed that the Water Company er be formed with the express intention of capturing eight point five percent of the United Kingdom bottled water market. Er this being gradually achieved over a three year phased expansion period. Erm in year one growth is expected to be within a targeted range up to two and a half percent. In year two er up to six percent and in year three eight percent of the United Kingdom bottled water market. The founding company is being use surplus existing production, manufacturing sales, distribution and transportation capacities in the United Kingdom currently operated by limited. Er to that end now er I would like to hand you over to progressively to my colleagues. Er and the first gentleman I'd like to call on er is Mister Anthony who is our Marketing Director to give us a market overview and assessment of the product opportunity. Okay. Thank you very much. Right now good afternoon ladies and gentlemen. And as my colleague has already stated we're a new company and we aim to capture eight percent of the er U K bottled water market. Erm the way we've er determined this is through research by a market intelligence unit er which has been aided by retail market intelligence and utilized er as the basis of our research and our calculations. Er we've used this to analyze the consumer preferences and purchasing questions indicated erm through through this research. And they indicate there that there are excellent opportunities opening up in the United Kingdom bottled water market across the full range of available products commonly consumed and specifically identified friendly product ranges. The total available market consists of thirty percent of the total population of the United Kingdom. But this market is expanding at a rate of at least five percent and predictions and calculations show that this is far in e in excess of this base rate. The two ranges the firstly still water and secondly bottled s sorry the two ranges are firstly still water and secondly sparkling water. Both ranges will be produced using both high quality Yorkshire Pennine water and good quality ergonomically practical using the York er using a good quality ergonomically practical co containers using the own brand label. It is our aim to exploit this growing market the full range of resources and materials and systems that are available er as previously mentioned by my colleague. Erm our marketing has been targeted on a geographical basis er on three main areas. The London region, Yorkshire and in Scotland. Again erm all of this information erm provided er backs up our er our plan.Further market research based upon information has refined our target area groupings by socio and ec economic group, age and sex. Where these key indicators illustrate the most favourable conditions er we are going to base our main advertising campaign and I'll now hand you over to my colleague . Er thank you Tony for that most illuminating insight into the bottled water market. Erm and I should now like to introduce er Thomas , Director of Public Relations, who will talk us through 's product brands and competition followed by a detailed review of where our product fits into the market and it's U S P. I wanna Right the products erm the product brands and opportunities erm. The main competitors are are Perrier Water with te twenty four percent of the market, Highland Spring with six percent, Well's Soft Drinks own label er twenty eight percent, Nestle four percent, er Coca-cola Schweppes four percent, Evian fifteen percent. And there are forty other companies erm which have eighteen percent of the market. Er Okay other com competitors we've we see are er all companies which sell mineral water. Erm to include ourselves. Erm people like Tizer, people like Coca-cola. Now these are huge companies with vast volume of sales in the flavoured er drinks market. Now we see ourselves entering into this market not immediately but in the not too distant future. Er our intention would be to direct our advertising towards the natural fresh qualities of the product and the powerful lobby of the Greens. However the flavoured water is not our first priority. At a later stage erm in our program we would also be looking at larger containers of erm of water er something like well in our third year erm five litre canisters. Now another very another and very important er competitor is the water boards. Erm and they have problems with er the quality of water and the sa standards not re reaching the sort of specifications er the pu public not trusting the er product and and consequently looking for alternatives. Er seasonal shortages erm the droughts of recent years particularly in the Southeast have made supplies of good drinking water less than secure. Erm and er that's where erm records show us that er wa bottled water is . Erm as it happens this is the area where a spring of mineral water here for er for us to exploit. Erm fluor fluoridation erm er this is a particular prob problem for many people who don't like additives to water. Erm and spring water produced within the regulations of the E C would be pure of any additives. Our market we see our market as being national. would give us their backing and channels of distribution er we shall be in correct in direct competition with our competitors in the a areas which we consider to be most profitable. We shall place our advertising where it will be most cost effective. And we shall continue to update our sales strategy as we see the the market develop. Our product our product is first class Yorkshire spring water obtained from the springs rising from the Pennines bottled in Yorkshire to comply with erm U K national mineral water regulations E C directive. Er we shall be producing it in three hundred and thirty C C bottles to meet the demand for mixer drinks and a small bottle for trade market. will be produced in both still and sparkling excuse me as per bottle. We shall be producing in Tetrapak and for s er for machine vending and supermarket shelves. In litre bottles er both still and s sparkling for use in bars and in and in a house where there's regular use. In two in two litre containers still only in this case to cater for those people generally er generally needing a larger supply available in the home, in caravans etcetera. All these will be competitively competitively priced erm alongside market leaders in price for quality. Whilst we recommend a retail price for all sizes as with all similar product on the market it will be up to the vendor to adjust for the prices the margins that they require. Our unique proposition is bottled in blue glass erm the unique proposition er bottled in blue glass to ref reflect the clean cut image which is different to our competitors. And also using the distribution of of deliveries to the door daily we can also use the sales staff to as assist us in distribution. Okay right pretty encouraging view of approach to the bottled water market and to the anticipated stance therein. Er I hope that now that Anne who is our very capable financial director will enlighten us with a breakdown of costs and an insight into targets with attendant indicators of relative volumes. Right erm I'm not sure actually whether you're going to be able to see this because . Erm my initial talk is on the actual breakdown of the costing for this exercise. Erm I've broken down the costing into each of the sizes we will produce, the thirty three millilitres, the one litre and the two litre sizes. I've also broken the smaller ones down into the cost for the still and the carbonated water. Erm the actual percentage of the ingredients used over the first year erm is about five percent for water, twenty three point six percent for the bottle, I'll explain that later that's quite high, the cap is four percent, one percent for the gassing,erm one percent for the case, two point seven percent for labour, four percent for transport, a general overhead would be about seventeen point one percent. Erm we've made a provision for interest payable on the loan on the assumption that we may have to borrow money on an overdraft basis. And we've made er that's erm accounts for about one point six percent of the total cost. For the advertising which is the biggest erm amount we have to spend on is actually forty percent. The advertising's actually larger than other products are currently spent on their advertising but w we feel that with the launch of a new product and trying to catch eight and a half percent of the mar market over erm three years that we do need to spend heavily in the department so like I say that's forty percent. But that's only in the first year, in the second year erm the percentage will reduce quite rapidly and we're only spending half the second and third years. Erm back to the bottles. Now we had quite a problem trying to obtain erm a bottle size the two litre size at a reasonable price when we set out on this er thing. So it's costing us approximately twenty pence for each bottle and that's very high, that's a very high quality bottle. We've just been in discussions with the manufacturers and we actually but we're hoping to get a discount on that in the near future so we're hoping the cost of that will come down. The contribution erm made by each of these products after we've used an average sales price erm is seven and a half pence roughly for the smallest size, erm about eighteen pence average for the one litre size and eleven twelve percent twelve pence sorry for the large size. Erm the large size is really a relatively it it's a smaller percentage of the market so we've had to price it as far down as we can that's why our contribution for the large size is not as large as the Erm the overhead the sorry the capital costs erm will be a total of two hundred and ninety thousand which is two hundred for factory extensions, eighty thousand for plant and ten perc ten thousand for the gasser. Erm the pricing of the product. We priced it at a wholesaler price, a retailer price and a con the price of a consumer. Erm the small bottles will be b er be between thirty two and thirty five pence to the consumer. The market average is about thirty one pence but we feel that we can cos we're proc producing such a high quality product that we can raise the price above that. For the one litre size the average price is about sixty seven pence. Whereas the market size is it it varies considerably. We've found that own brands are from thirty five pence up to the top quality brands are something like eighty five pence and we feel we've hit the market in the middle there. So we're quite happy with that price. Erm the two litre size now like I say once again we're having erm problems with getting erm an economical er cost for the bottle of this so our price is actually slightly higher than the other market price. Once again the market price erm for this size is from fifty three pence for own brand sizes up to about eighty pence for up sorry eighty two pence for erm the top quality products. Unfortunately we're gonna have to market ours at about eighty two pence, but we feel this is quite reasonable considering that the vast the biggest sales of this two litre size would be from the milk floats and would delivered to the door. So we feel that's quite reasonable. And the market the market size really for in year one is two and a half percent which is fourteen and a half million litres of water. Year two is six percent which is thirty four point eight million litres of water. Year three eight and a half percent of the market which is forty nine point three million litres of w water. Erm we feel quite confident that we can reach these targets. Erm and that's the product analysis erm from my part of the the team. Thank you. Thank you Anne for that very detailed and realistic view of the potential available to the company er I'd now like to call on Tom again er to give us a highlighted familiarization of the advertising and promotional campaign Water intend to pursue Right our adverti advertising and commercial campaign. Er to reach our target objectives we ha we need a very strong sell to the trade. Including a large and sustained advertising campaign. Now initially er starting er starting May er for suppliers to be the adverts for from the beginning of the summer holidays and then looking forward to the Christmas trade. Right well first of all the first thing we can probably do is broadsheet to the trade introducing product and incentives. And it would be something along these lines. This is the the front of the broadsheet which would go to the trade. And followed by er the message inside. Okay which says, er intr introducing our new product range of spring water available from May the first ready for the summer trade. And then it goes into the details of erm the various sizes which we have. In three hundred and thirty C C bottles, er the still will be in gold top and the sparkling in silver. And as for your customer a mark of quality mixer. In Tetrapak for the machine vendors and those with who prefer this in er this environment friendly pack er package. In litre bottles to cater for everyday use in the house, the restaurant, the pub, the club. In two litre bottles for the heavier users of fresh spring water. Trade incentives, one case free for every ten purchased in the in introductory period which we've foreseen as four weeks. And fifty pence per case rebate for orders during er introductory period as well. We shall be delighted to receive your order by telephone or when our representative visits you. There will be heavy T V, post and press advertising commencing in June. There will also be the opportunity for your customers to save bottle tops for or pu or purchase heavily discounted quality goods. Okay. We at the at the initia erm the initial opening as well we've we would er er offer an invitation to the press and the media to attend our launch meeting er from from this we would hopefully get some advertising in as much as apply to erm and er hope t to get X amount of the market. That generally works. We shall have a four work sell-in to the trade via representatives er they will have funds available to purchase shelf facings in supermarkets, cash and carries if necessary. We re we require a hundred percent distribution in all of our direct customers by the end of week four. All major outlets to be visited by week one. Major outlets being cash and carries, erm supermarkets, wholesalers etcetera. In the medium term advertising in trade magazines to cater for information of the launch getting to the indirect trade. That's the people that we don't call on erm with our representatives. We would we would like to build distribution in the in in this market with the use of specialized agency teams. Er we're we're aware of the costs and the effort er and that effort may have to er be delayed. Erm in the long term that is er six weeks onwards er we would go into T V, press, posters and sampling in the store. Right. Er advertising as I said T V, poster sites and press and point of sale. And we will see er our advertising al in all the media media er going along these lines. So that would be for example poster sites and that for example would be er point of sale. A show-card if you like. And if you notice what we're trying to do is with our er illustration here er is to reflect the the gentility if you like of the Yorkshire hills and Yorkshire dales and we have a logo of our own which appears in the corner of the screen. And can I also add that that follows on with the pictures if you like on the bottl on the label in the bottle. We're also considering and will do our leaflet drops erm giving money money off value er value perceived er gifts. And what I mean by that is for example er a pan like that we can buy for a quid which happens to be a . Er with a perceived value of something like ten or twelve pounds but er that can be self financing with the profit on the bottles that the bottle tops that we ask for. For example if we make say for example five pence on the bottle and we or for cap er one of these for twenty bottle tops, that's a quid which is paid for. So that's self financing. Erm in store we're thinking in terms of purchased shelf facings. If they if the er store is not gonna us enough enough facings then we will be prepared to purchase them. Just a note for you. Er T V costs are thirty seconds of on all channels costs approximately two hundred and ten thousand pounds. To make the film would cost you something like a hundred and twenty thousand pounds. Er if you want to go local erm say on towns it would cost you perhaps forty three thousand pounds for thirty seconds. However spots can be purchased for seven seconds and a pro pro rata charge is made. Er full page newspaper in nationa national dailies is averaging about erm twenty thousand. Although the telegraph costs twenty seven thousand pounds for a full page and twenty thousand. As I said er trade incentive incentives fifty pence per for every ten purchased introductory or er order only. Erm advertising ex expenditure will be heavy and varied and will change as our three year er plan evolves. Our needs of the cam campaign are perceived. We er we intend to break into profit in year three when we should have recuperated our expenditure. Right the ima the image we're seeing is freshness, cleanliness and health. Erm have agreed that we can take over two of their sponsored events er which is golf and tennis and it would be something like erm golf promotion. Now you might that will get us on T V and it it is also self financing as well in as much as you set up the promotion, the T V companies but it off you. So it doesn't cost you anything in . And both these events are in keeping with the image we're seeking and as I said self financing. Pe the fees are paid by the T V companies to cover this event. Our advertising budget two and a half percent of the market the first year. We're gonna make a loss of one one million one hundred and seventy seven thousand with an advertising spend of two and a half million. Erm the second year six percent. We will in actual fact make a profit in the second year erm although that's gonna be against the fi first year loss. And the third year eight perc eight and a half percent of the market we should in fact of two million two er thirty hundred and thirty four erm thousand pounds. Er note we're flexible in our advertising budgets against make a profit in year three. Erm I personally feel although some members of me team don't agree er with the with the heavy a advertising expenditure we've got, we can probably do better than two and a half the first year certainly erm and maybe ten percent of the market in the end of the at the end of the day. Right. Advertising where it goes. These are preliminary er first year er two by thirty second spots half a million quid but that's national. Erm a thousand poster sites at say five hundred pounds per site would cost half a million. And national dailies five dailies would cost you about four hundred thousand pounds. leaves about one point million pounds one point one million pounds to cover intr introductory incentive leaflets, buying shelf space, added value goods, money off incentives, point of purchase. But the budget will be continually scrutinized er and adjusted to er suit the situation that we're in at that stage. Er thanks Tom that was really quite dynamic and breathtaking and I think you'll all agree. Er now some more practical and down to earth aspects er Michael director of development will run through the critical path analysis for the new factory extension. Ah yes I thought that would er take you by surprise I noticed the sharp intakes of breath there erm but even now we're thinking in terms of expansion. Thank you very much Philip. My brief was to do a C P A for the factory extension. Erm and also decide the dependence, draw up the network, decide the critical path and decide what action could be taken to reduce the overall project by three days. On the C P A on the C P A of the factory extension what we've done we have ordered the digger which is taking a duration of seven days. So the digger will arrive on site . We will continue to from two three we will continue to dig the foundations in the mean time we hope the concrete the concrete will be arriving on site to complete those footings. At the same time it is my belief that while we were do doing the footings we can also the concrete to fall in line where we will erm put the main floor in. Erm during the course of the footings and flooring taking place, bricks have been ordered to come in where the walls are being built together with the joinery. You'll see a dotted line coming off on er ordering the bricks it comes in here er to er the roof structure. Now at the same time as ordering the bricks I'm taking on myself to order the tiles for the roof at the same time. Thank you Michael for that exciting view of the forthcoming plans for the expansion to cope with this new vibrant market. Erm now it's my spot er and it's a quality promise. We at Water undertake to supply each and every cherished customer with a product that is clear, cool and healthy to drink, free from contaminants and eminently potable. It will be maintained within the requirements of W S D eighty oblique seven seven eight and all new MAFF directives. MAFF being spelt M A double F capitals. Erm er by continuous process control so that we can say this is water. Erm now for the moment we've all been waiting for er what this means in terms of er profit loss and cash flow and Anne will once again enlighten us I do realize out of time this so erm I'd like to just g erm go through the profit loss for one year quite quickly. Erm as you can see the sales in the first two are expected to be four point nine almost five million pounds. Erm the cost of sales is two and a half million pounds which gives us a gross profit of almost two and a half million pounds. You'll notice on the overhead cost the big cost is the advertising which is two and a half million pounds and that unfortunately takes us into a a net loss at the end of the year of one point almost two million pounds. Erm I've now set out the budget details for the three years. Erm I've also erm put down the side of year one the actual percent of the cost for each of them. As you can see once again the advertising is a problem in year one which takes up forty percent of our actual cost of the total product. In year two this actually drops down to twelve point six percent and in year three down to nine five percent. Erm year one once again we said we'll make a loss of one point almost two million. In year two we're expecting to make a profit of one point five million. You'll also notice that we put a provision in there of half a million for expansion of packing cos we believe that we may need this erm with the production of the o you for the carry on. Thanks Anne that sounds wonderful. Erm so it's okay Mike to you to summarize er all of this for us. Fine okay thanks Philip. Well erm in complete summary I'd just like to go through three points again. A the product. The product is a very pure natural water from an underground spring with with a clean taste, high in calcium and low in nitrates. It has undergone two stringent two years of stringent tests and is produced in two forms a carbonated and a still version. The competitive edge. Water is committed to the development of effective competition and has been instrumental in many changes. Competition in the British market for water today is a reality with some forty plus rivals complet competing for a share in this growth area. We believe that the quality of our product together with doorstep deliveries, our unique selling proposition is highly valued by our customers. These arrangements are part of a wide ranging package of service s standards drawn up under the campaign banner of a commitment to customers. Which marks the latest development in the company's long standing programme of customer care. We further believe that in carrying out these arrangements we enhance the company's reputation, its quality of product, flexibility and responsibility within the market place, together with its personal service and image. Future development. The company has always had a substantial research and development program and it will continue to develop s its businesses within the U K and take advantage of any appropriate profitable opportunities to extend operations. Expansion by way of export to the E E C is envisaged within the next twelve months. Market research has shown us that people are far more health conscious and far more sensible about what they drink. If you don't want an alcoholic drink, mineral water is an acceptable alternative. Young people especially just take it for granted and order it automatically. So move over Perrier you've got a new Yorkshire rival. At that point I just want to stand up again because I think I've put very little into this altogether because I wasn't here. I'd just like to thank the fellow colleagues of my team for the effort and I regard er a very worthwhile and creditable performance. Thank you one and all. Right okay now who's got some questions? Ah right well who wants to fire first then? Go on Mike you had your hand up first didn't you. Right erm the thing that disturbs me actually is this advertising budget so could you can you tell us erm what the timing of this advertising is in terms of Yeah can you turn that over please. Range er of information that you're gonna put out to that person so that he can bring in o other customers to your arms. I mean you know a lot of people don't have the orange juices and the eggs and everything else that do cos they milk delivered day. How are they going to be able to join your network of doorstep deliveries. Well I mean the most of them will obviously go to the cash and er to the er supermarkets and pick it up. But they're going to be cut out from the two litre bottle range er if they've got a bad back or these sort of situations. Oh yeah right well I mean we could leave that to our representatives if you like erm to erm to cater for those those milkmen erm in the same way as the milkmen. You know we'll always be and continually be looking for a er fresh outlets erm to sell our product. That's a great benefit of doing it sort of erm nationally. The intention was that we should set out to count the big sales first. We want the turnover we want the the input and and then er having succeeded hopefully by year three when we've er as we've maintained making a profit we will then look at some of the marginal sales as we would call them to er some of the smaller people. That obviously entails er a a great deal more overhead in terms of distribution. Most of the market seems concentrated in the er initially in the two litre area for er to the centre of our sales would be in in that area. And er over a period diversify into er different markets. Do you not see any problems with the clergy using the name ? Oh we we've already spoken to the Archbishop Do you have to pay any fee for using the name? Yes we've er spoken to the council as well and we've er received all the authorities which are necessary from the York council and er everybody is happy on that. Ah we we we know somebody up there. When you the title you're talking about Pennine water a link between the two. Yes well the reason for that was the erm the name is to do with the way we commercially market the product. Er we're targeting three particular areas. We're targeting the area around London, the area in Yorkshire obviously and in Scotland because the er socio ec and economic roots provide er the right kind of market for our product. And er is a very well known er place indeed and we feel that people throughout the country indeed throughout the world can identify with . And it will also aid the tourist industry in York by providing people with a focus to using the material we have here they can identify with it and it may increase the er the trade er in York. You say that you know your main one of your main targets is the London area. Do you see any problems trying to push a Yorkshire product in the London area? Well there are a lot of people from York shire in London. And the marketing shown that people who buy this product are mainly the young women in socio and ec economic groups A and B and er a lot of er women like to be like Yorkshire women That that that that kind of also like to point out that Highland Spring is is erm a national product. The highland springs are seen as natural but to me the Pennines a rather grimy image. They've not got a fresh spring image. Oh well that's you Er in addition to which er the the the problems that Perrier had erm er I've forgotten exactly how long it is ago now but probably er two or three years ago er when they had er contamination through Have you got a slogan at all? Pardon? Have you got a slogan? We don't particularly need one I don't think. Spring water from the Pennines that's a good the T V adverts thirty seconds is a long time Yeah right. Ah yeah but I think you er misunderstood what we were saying. Thirty seconds is to produce a film that's a long time we did talk about seven second slots as well Yes. which we can flash on . So you'll be using Oh yeah I mean we're only talking about a couple of initially er large erm thirty second spots if you like. They're too expensive you know for the sort of profit we're going to to go into too much of that. The the intention of the film is to sort of er create er the the the backdrop to this product. In other words er pictures of er springs emerging from er Pennine moorland er backdrops etcetera etcetera they're just to give you the backdrop. To which Tom says the the essential punch will come from the er seven second advert. Mm. Bearing in mind that there's something like forty companies chasing about eighteen percent of this market, do you honestly feel that your advertising revenue is going to go down as quickly as feel if you want to try and keep ahead of the the pack and keep up with the leaders. Well the there are only really three main competitors so are are people in in the market . And er we intend to er capitalize er on our and indeed er makers of Highland Spring Water their market share is reducing and we intend to capture that portion. aren't they. We did also point out er the advertising budget would be reviewed . er if we go in front of the of our objectives then we're on there's obviously more money to spend. is quite high bearing in mind the fact the national average . How are you doing, are you You're gonna you're saying you've got a problem with the cost of the bottles these are the blue ones? no these are the large ones. The large ones The two litre size because of course the two litre is not well it it's erm we just had problems with erm finding somebody who would give us a er good quality bottle. The the small bottles are glass though. Are they reusable or recyclable. Well actually most people have most people want them for souvenirs. Cos that's where that one came from. say sort of environmentally friendly and Yes we we envisaged that that bottle it it it has a certain sort of cache about it so we we we expected that that er a lot of sales for that eventually would go through the on trade and er obviously if it's on trade then er the thing is automatically re-collectable and recyclable. Well there is a problem with recycling blue glass because of the colour. Well not recycling bringing it back into the thing, washing it and and refilling. It may not help the advertising use blue but green. Well there actually is a s spring water bottle actually producing already so We actually think that that blue bottle will stand out when there's no other As long as it's not next to to er Domestos Can I just ask a couple of questions before we finalize before lunch. First of all can I talk about the erm how you're going to execute your advertising campaign. Because you're talking about a national launch er with a national campaign er developing one image. Er with one T V commercial and yet you've said that your initial thrust will be erm in three areas. First of all London, second Yorkshire and third Scotland. How you attack those markets can be different in the sense that in er London the penetration of erm er mineral water into the target market is very high and therefore it's already an accepted practice. Whereas in Yorkshire the penetration and usage is very low perhaps the lowest in the country erm where there is still very much a heritage of, Well what's wrong with what's in t' tap lad? Erm and so the approach has to be quite different. And Scotland where there is a very strong national heritage and how are you going to push Yorkshire water into an area where there is a high heritage of water? Can you do that with one advertising campaign or do you plan ? Well initially we we're we're going to we're going to go nationally but very quickly we're gonna see where erm our strengths and weaknesses are erm and we know already where the erm the large market is and once we've had a couple of T V spots to make it known nationally erm in the end of course we're gonna have to erm probably concentrate on those areas which erm er which'll give us the best return. not only which er erm one of the big strategies of ours is using er and we think we can get into a considerable number of homes with leaflet drops etcetera erm er by using that er arrow. Okay. Well one one of our key key er marketing er tools is the markets we're actually aiming for and I er agree with you we are going to diversify and it is an on ongoing campaign but er our s the er targeting's based on the socioeconomic group er of the population and the differential er of purchasers is going to be fairly minimal because those will be very similar people throughout the entire country. Erm so I take I understand your point we are aware of it and we think our campaign will take take er those factors into account. And diversification will er occur somewhere . Okay. I think we all talked about flexibility and you know that's what it's all about really . What consumer research have you done to er enable you to charge a premium price for your water? Is it of a higher quality and accepted by consumers? Well the er water quality is e exceedingly high and Technically you said that already but what about er sort of consumer appreciation? Well the er consumer appreciation outlined er again that's divided into two areas and it's based on the socioeconomic groups and the purchasing patterns of the members of the public. Right. And er there are two distinct markets. One for bottled water and er the the the the large No I'm not I'm not interested in the socio groups what I'm saying is what research have you done to confirm that the Well we have done research actual taste of the water is right for your target market. Well we have done research by sampling tests inside Right. er supermarkets etcetera er from time to time. Erm and those people who have been asked the specific question, Would you pay a premium price for this water as against that which you're drinking? said yes. Fine thank you. And the last question I want to raise with you is that erm how do you feel about your initial problem on pricing? You're talking about er three thirty mil going out at a premium price, erm your one litre at an economy price and your two litre back at a premium price. Do you think that variation in pricing strategy will be er contrary to what you're trying to do in terms of your image projection for the brand? It could be. It could be. Right how do you er plan to address that issue? In effect although although the water is the same product it's there is a slight difference in the marketing of each one of them. Right. The small bottle once again is is the attractiveness of the bottle and we've found that to be very attractive and people are were very willing to pay a premium price for something like that cos as Thomas said people are buying those bottles to keep them erm initially. So we feel that we can actually get away with a premium price on that. The biggest market is the one litre size. That's a vast erm that takes up a vast erm proportion of the market. It's also the highest proportion of our oi erm production for these reasons and of course it has the greatest return pocket in that. So we really need to keep that into a price competitive with other erm er competitors. Erm the two litre size is we i the vast majority of the market there is going to be on the doorstep and we feel that we could get away with a premium price because of that. But I understand your concerns that it may affect the erm . Right. Okay. Not long before the end of term now, pooh looking forward to er, going home to get some real food inside you I dare say, as opposed to the gruel you've been getting in hall. Right. Okay let's just er pick up from where we er left off last week. Cast your minds back, last week we were looking at the relationship between price elasticity of demand and marginal revenue, and what that relationship could tell us about er prices and total revenue in an industry. If you remember I used the example of agriculture, right, where it is generally observed that agricultural products have a price inelastic demand, okay. So that any changes in output.. right.. lead forget that diagram it doesn't really show what I am about to say, but er when we have a price inelastic demand.. changes in output.. lead to changes in price, but the changes in output are overcompensated changes in price, so . let's just do the diagram like that. Okay. In that sorry, in agriculture when there was a good harvest, prices would fall more than proportionately to the change in quantity. As a result total revenues would be lower in the industry in years of good harvest, and when there is a very poor harvest prices rocket through the roof because of the inelastic demand and therefore the change in price is much greater than the change in quantity er.. consumed on on the market. Right and that was the result we generally observe in agriculture in that, for example, if you have ever been down to er the West the West of England where there is a number of apple growers you will find that when there is a very big harvest, right, apples just left to rot on trees, right, simply because it is not worth farmers harvesting er those apples because they won't get er price to cover their average vanable costs. Right. Prices are so low in the market because there is such a bumper crop that it is simply not worth them harvesting, as a result it is rational for them er just to leave the apples um, pears and what have you on, on the trees. Right. However, in a very poor harvest year, right, prices rise very dramatically and as a result total income of the industry ri rises. However, as I said before erm if you are the farmer or the grower, the apple grower whose crop has been completely decimated you won't be able to er benefit from the very high, high prices if you have got very little output right, so your as an individual your income may be very low, right, in bad years, right, but on average when we look at the industry as a whole, industry incomes will be very very very large. Right. . What I want to come on to now is just to talk about nonlinearity, and still with reference to demand elasticities. So far we have just been using linear demand curves, with a linear demand curve the slope is constant, however, elasticity varies everywhere along its length. Now with a nonlinear demand curve, right, that same relationship doesn't hold. With a nonlinear demand curve it is the slope that changes along the curve's length, but the elasticity in some special cases, right, can remain constant. Right. Now I just want to look at a simple class of demand function, right, which we could write, if I can get a pen that works we write the demand function as P equals A over Q to the beta. Right. Now this is a special class of nonlinear demand curve right because this implies constant elastic constant elasticity alright. Now to prove that result we just note again the elasticity formula D Q D P so if we differentiate that expression on the demand curve we'll have we'll have D P D Q Okay, and that equals . minus beta A Q to the minus beta minus one. Right simply because we can rewrite this top expression as AQ to the minus beta. Right so if we differentiate our demand function we get that alright, nothing that for our elasticity we want one over D P D Q okay, so our elasticity you could write as one over minus beta A Q to the minus beta plus one right, times our price quantity ratio which if we now just substitute in the price, so that we have got A Q to the minus beta, right over Q , right, that equals A Q to the minus beta minus one over minus beta A Q minus beta to the minus one right which cancels to give us minus one over beta. Right, so our elasticity in this function, right, is simply minus one over beta, right. Now if we note that beta is a constant then that implies that our elasticity is going to be a constant. Right, so it doesn't matter where we are on this nonlinear demand curve, right, elasticity will always be the same. and in empirical sorry and in in empirical work we tend to use these nonlinear demand functions simply because they have this nice property that they have constant elasticity, and it makes subsequent calculations considerably easier, and you may think in actual fact that linear demand curves are quite restrictive. We may not expect consumer behaviour, right, to be the same at all prices and quantities basically but er, nevertheless, you will probably see more linear demand curves than nonlinear ones because they are somewhat simpler. Right. What I want to look at now, a new sub-heading, and it's the relationship,right, between total, average and marginal functions As you may be aware that economists are obsessed with the concept of the margin and there's a neat relationship a couple of relationships embedded, alright, er embedded in this relationship between total marginal and average functions that is applicable to all total marginal and average functions whether we whether we be looking at marginal cost, marginal revenue, marginal products, right, the same relationship will hold for all of them. To explore what these relationships are let's just use the example of total product, right, so we will be looking at total product curves , right, T P Okay and lets assume that our total product right, is simply a function labour and capital. Now in order to to look at this relationship between labour and capital and output total product simultaneously we need to draw a 3 D diagram, alright, but because my diagrams are bad enough in 2 D what we are going to do is we are going to constrain one of these factors, right, so what we will do is we will pick a level of ou a level of capital input , right, and we will see what happens to total product as we vary labour. Right, so we are going to assume effectively that K is our fixed factor of production and L is our variable factor . Okay. right so if you er draw a make sure you have got at least half a page, right, you are going to be drawing two quite familiar diagrams , right, you er, first of all just draw a normal total product curve, what we are going to do, because we are looking at a fixed level of output, sorry fixed level of capital what we are going to be analysing is the relationships between the total product of labour, the average product of labour, and the marginal product of labour, right, for a given level of capital okay, so the total product curve just tells us what happens to output as we increase the level of our variable factor labour keeping capital fixed at some constant constant level Right, so as we increase the labour ou er input by one unit the change in total product, right, is going to be given by the marginal product, right, so so quite simply the marginal products of labour. As we change labour by one unit what's the effect on total product or output well that effect is measured by our marginal product. As a result marginal product is simply a slope right, the slope of the total product labour function Okay,let's define average product of labour as simply total product of labour divided by the amount of labour we are actually using alright, an average product to be measured by slope of a cord, right, from the origin total product curve er to the particular point on the total product curve. Right, so if we just the origin of the particular point on that curve the slope of that the origin to denote the average product of labour. Let's just have a look at what happens as we increase the lab , the labour output. First of all let's have a look at the relationship between total product and marginal product making a diagram we can see the total product rises up to L 3 units As a result that implies a marginal product positive throughout the range to O L 3 . If we now look at what happens to total product between O and O L 1 units of labour and we can see total product rising at an increasing rate, right, which implies our marginal product positive but increases over that range O to L L 1 right, between the the range O L 1 and O L 3 , right, the total product is rising but at a decreasing rate a decreasing rate that implies that the marginal product is still positive, right, but falling . There is a between L 1 and L 3 units of labour total product is rising but at a decreasing rate that therefore implies that a marginal product of labour between those two imput levels is positive but but falling notice that total product curve peaks at L 3 right, so it's maximum at L 3 units of labour of that curve at that particular point zero, therefore, the marginal product labour is zero . If we add more labour beyond L L 3 units, the total product is falling the total product is falling and the slope of the curve is negative what's the slope of the curve it's the marginal product, therefore, the marginal product of labour is also negative beyond L 3 units of labour . Let's now look at the relationship between total product and average product O K the slope of a ray from the origin , alright, along the curve rises all the way to L 2 units , right, so the slope of the cord, ray rather, the slope of ray from the origin rises, right, to O 2 sorry to O L 2 units of labour as a result the margin, sorry the average product of labour is also rising over that range . At er L 2 units of labour the slope of the ray from the origin right, is tangent to our total product curve. At L 2 the slope of a, the ray from the origin is actually tangent , I'm sorry, the the ray is actually tangent and therefore the slope of that ray is the same as the slope of the total product curve at that point. As a result, marginal product which is the slope of the total product curve and average product must be the same at L 2 units of labour . Beyond L 2 units of labour the slope of the ray from the origin on the total product curve starts to fall . Right, as a result average products must fall beyond O L 2 units of labour . Okay, it follows therefore that at L 2 units of labour the average product is at a maximum. Right. Rising prior to that, falling after therefore the average product is at a maximum for L 2 units of labour . Okay, so that's what you learn in micro economics this year and which should be fairly familiar to you ask now is why that is the case. Why do we get this, these relationships in particular, right, why does the marginal product curve intersect the average product curve at the average product curve's maximum? This relationship isn't just common to product relationships it's the same in cost revenue relationships as well Okay, so so what that diagram is saying in symbolic terms is that if the slope of the ideal product of labour curve, right, if D L P D A P L by D L positive, then the marginal product of labour must be greater than the average product of labour . Right, and if the slope of that average product curve, right is negative that implies the marginal product of labour is less than it's average product hence if the slope of the average product curve is zero that implies therefore the marginal product equals the average product of labour. so let's show why that is why that is the case . What we are going to do is differentiate the average product function the average product, right, is the quotient of total product right, and the the amount of labour actually used and as a result if you want to differentiate it you can use a quotient rule of differentiation. Right, general notation, right, D Y D X equals V D U D X. V squared minus U D V D X all over . That's our quotient rule so let's apply that to this particular particular problem. Right, what we are going to do is let's say that Y equals er total product labour X equals labour U, right, equals sorry Y is the average product let Y equal the average product of labour X labour input, U equals total product of labour, right, V er equals L as well Okay,, right, so differentiating the average product curve and average product function in respect to labour , alright, we get L times D T P right, by D L minus Q P L all over L squared . Let's rewrite that slightly differently and just say l over L open brackets into D T P L over D L minus T P over L , alright, what's that in economic terms, well that's simply , right, marginal product of labour in the brackets, right, minus the average product of labour , okay, so if if the marginal product of labour here is greater than the average product right, the righthand side is going to be positive right, therefore, average product is going to be positive okay,the marginal product is greater than the average product ah change the slope of the average product curve is going to be er positive therefore average product itself is positive and rising let's write that down as the marginal product of labour is greater than the average product of labour that implies changing slope of the er average product curve right, is positive implying that average product is positive itself and rising Okay, if the marginal product of labour, right, is less than the average product right, that implies the slope of the average product curve is positive therefore the average product itself, right, is positive and falling sorry right, so we can rewrite that somewhat succinctly , using the following D A P L over D L, right, is greater than equal to or less than zero if D T P L over D L, right, is greater than, equal to, less than right T P L over L the average product . Yep er well you read it just go along the top the line here, alright, the slope of the average product curve, right, will be positive, right, greater than zero if the marginal product, right, is greater than the average product, right, the slope of the average product curve will equal zero, right, if the marginal product equals the average product and the slope of the er the average product curve will be negative, right, if the marginal product is less than er average product Okay,now that result holds, right, for all erm for all marginal relationships Okay, so if we are looking at a marginal marginal cost curve , right, we have got that's our marginal cost , that's our average cost we, we're intersecting here when in the case it is a minimum so marginal costs cuts through average costs at its minimum value we are looking at average revenue and marginal revenue average revenue function marginal revenue function This is our total revenue function and the same relationship is embodied there, but, notice that between the average and the average revenue and marginal revenue functions, right, don't intersect simply because we have got a linear relationship here right, average revenue is always above marginal revenue in this particular case. Right, but, nevertheless, the same relationship is embodied in that righto, I think what we will do is er leave it there before we start partial derivatives. See you next week. Last night driving down this bit, it's terrible! Ah, we was we was talking about going about somewhere but er, we changed our mind in the end, cos it was er It was a bit damp. just a bit, bit aye. Oh! Hi. It's alright if you're It's alright. . But he didn't come. Yeah. Are you still coming to see him? Oh enjoy your . Cos I am. I think everybody's going home then. Then I'll pick you up tonight. Right! See you tonight then. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Bye! Right. Alright? Yeah I'll go and get some Tunes. Ah! Got some ? First thing. I got them yesterday. I've got . They're mine. What flavour do you want? Strawberry. Strawberry. Strawberry! They don't do strawberry. Well you know, the red ones. Oh, the cherry. Ah well! I've got cooking last today. Mm. That's the best way really. Except for it's dead hot still if you're not careful, if you've been cooking it in the over or something Yeah I know. and you li , it's a bit late you have to wait longer but apart from that like, when we're on the bus it's hot or so it has had to be set, it'll probably still be runny a bit. Yeah well mum's picking me up, so I know. You're alright. Mm. I'll be in the front tonight. Well say. They won't, I was thinking about it, probably not. And don't pull that funny face! I'm not pulling a funny face! You got netball today Clare? Are you doing netball in erm, games? Yeah So are we. We were lucky last week cos half of us have got netball, half of us have got hockey, but last week because it was raining it was too bad for the hockey people to go out cos they co , with it being dark as well so we, we just stayed inside. We did it inside and then had to go outside cos it was raining. Oh and it Well are you gonna take the today? . Black? Yeah, black. Well we got the shower in. Oh, I hadn't thought of it . Are you all back tomorrow now then? Apart from them. She'll turn it on when she wants to. I bet you it, oh! I bet it's only, I can take that? Not here no. Well you want if only in that , if I can play it back. I can play it back at home. Is it on a tape? Yeah, it goes onto a tape. Where's the tape? I ain't telling you! No, just just say, say where you're wearing the tape. Mm. If I can, if I could catch the tape. Is that yours? It's in the Walkman. Oh! That is why I'm not meant to see anyone with it. I wondered why yo were carrying that. You didn't notice it erm Pardon me! On Friday. on Friday, erm erm you didn't notice it be , when I was wearing it under yo , got you on tape, this one on Monday erm when you came down at dinner time, when you came charging into the common room. Right. Stuck in my earhole! Really! I went, ho! Yes. It's er! I wondered what it was, it was whistling in my earhole! Never mind. do without this. Hey Kathleen, have you saved that ? No. Have you shown it to Jenni? They don't, no, Jenni doesn't know about it. So don't tell her! what to say? Not a lot. Maybe sh ,!! Nothing! Just talking about what we're gonna do on Saturday. Yes! Lorna. Lorna get on with your work! So wha , what time are you co you have to sort out Get on with your work. whe , when you get in. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. I can't believe this is my work today! Has everybody got one ? Right. We're not are we? Let you know? What for? Well, come on, while she's recording . It don't bother me! I reckon she is recording actually. Well we'll soon find out won't we? Is that why you're not saying anything? Yeah. Okay? They just want to know Why do they wanna know how teenagers are like? It's not, it's all ages. Is it? Oh. All over the country. Who's it for? Is it for ? We might be able to hear it. It's not , it's for a research com , thing. Oh and research for Newsround! Yeah. Did yours ask about ? Why? Yeah. In Nottingham? No, cos they're doing it for all, they're all doing for all over different places anyway. Mhm. Some people have got a real bad Nottingham accent. Some people have. Sort of I mean Is that right? Like me? I got a Derbyshire accent, okay? And I've got nothing! I've got loads o accents altogether. No you cos, you know,yo Cos you're going to real effort are you ? What do you think of that? No, I I Do you think it looks alright without the paws? Yes. What about that one? Do they look about the same? No, because one's a lot wider than the other two at the moment. How many tapes has she gave you? A lot. Oh ! Oh! A lot? Why don't you play one now? They're taking them all back anyway. We're just doing all this talking so you can ! How many of the ta , tapes have you got? Sh , it doesn't, just as many as I can. It doesn't matter. Will I do one for you? Oh! No, you have to give me it. What? Ah ! I can't no, cos I won't do it anyway, I'm doing it for ma cos I Is this got some, I got some people coming round tonight so I was gonna do it anyway. Well, we've got a baby in our house. That's just the point! No, you ought to go to a party and do one. Cos that'd be ! I went to her house ! That was a party! A well anyway it's got, I've got cos it's gotta be with me anyway on it, cos I've gotta be in the conversation somewhere he said. Well I could pretend to be you. What? No, cos because they know. Er, I've got a cold. Well I didn't have a cold when she came to see me ! Cos you didn't have to face up to that , that's why! Think of me like a ladybird! Oh I'm cold! Just imagine you with ! No I don't believe It's on in a moment. She's losing her ! Excuse me! Oh alright . Do you reckon, think she does? I think it's a bit forced! Lorna! Kathleen's laughing! It's not is it? Don't Kathleen! Cos you, well she's nasty thing ! Kathleen, you gotta take photos? You what? You gotta take photos? Are you allowed to keep it? It's not bad! No! it's me that conversation there! Well , You won't the conversation. Oh come on! I want you put it on because I want my voice to be on it. Kathleen?? What? No. Loads of . I've got you in the common room I think anyway. Just shove it on now look listen to the talk. Is that why you , you and Lorna were nudging each other? I know! Just put Yeah. when we know. When we was talking to you. Sh , I wasn't doing earlier. Kathleen ! Talk like, when you know it's on! Aha. That's why I'm not doing it What's your ? when you think it's on. Then afterwards you gotta tell us. Alright. You gotta teach John his lesson! You've got to! Alright ! I will No afterwards she's going to switch it on in the common room. Yeah. I'll switch it on where I want! She's already taped a bit in the common room. Can't hear much on it though sa , cos there's too much background noise it stupid place! What the common room? Go on switch it on now? It's been on. Well The Oh! common room's My name's Michelle. You wouldn't believe In the common room or something like that. Yeah, cos the common room won't work will it Kathleen? Yes it did. Your lot was dead Your bit was alright cos you ke loud! Yeah, you keep screaming into it that's why! You go,! Well le , I said let me rewind it and play it. Will yo , can you hear it through the earphones? No. Oh right! In the common room. I can only hear it at home really, this thing she's He really loves, he loves you! given me. A , is there a all, bit And I go, ooh, you got all tarted up didn't you Amanda? And you goes, no I didn't! All I did was brush my hair! And all that was on it. Oh! Was that in the kitchen? Yeah ! Had No. it on in the kitchen then at home? Which kit , no. Oh! Good! No! Jolly good! You did? No I didn't. I did. You didn't! I pressed record. You didn't cos the tape was at the beginning of the tape. Ah ah! I, it weren't, it was at the beginning! Ah ah! No it wasn't. I mean, I wonder Wrong side! how many times you got Lorna? Ah! This Oh yeah, that's a point. They'll probably Oh hey! Do me a favour? die listening to her! I'm sure we'd have some fun and get John on it will you? We already have. Thank you! When Lorna was You have? doing your erm Can you play it? cookery lesson. I don't know. I wanted to wake up It's on a different tape. So Kathleen says. I'll see what i What did he say? I don't know. My mum listened Kathleen! mum listened to it. Cos I said, she didn't quite cos I said, I mean it was She we nicked off with it so it could be anything. It was in your cooking weren't it? In erm, that one of Cooking? I haven't got her for cooking. No! I'm not gonna let him in Vegetarian. the garden! I don't do cooking. No. I was just trying to make conversation . Why do you wanna know when he turns up? Erm Blackmail him with Can you something. yeah, just let her borrow it. Right? Please! Well! I've already asked! Please! Let her borrow it. Oh great! I'll think about it. No. Not tonight, tomorrow. I've got a tape recorder Listen! We can get it round your home tonight could we? I've got a tape recorder. Oh bloody Nora! But I will tomorrow. I can't. I will Yeah. Oh Kathleen! Can I just borrow it please? Your . ! Yo!! Just don't tell anyone! I won't! If I've done my babysitting What? this Monday and Tuesday. No, don't tell anyone about it. Here, come with me. I'll might be babysitting, but now I'm not sure. Put it on in front, put it Kathleen. I'm not sure. I want my voice to be in there. Look. We don't want to see how you speak! Urgh! Urgh! Can she borrow it on Monday? No! I won't have it on Monday. Well I'll do it. So it's too late. I've got a tape recorder anyway. Just a normal tape recorder. She's different kind that you record on anyway. And mine's is the , the one, the tape cos she just records the whole room. Erm use that. I think Jane was trying to earwig our conversation. You've done it. Use that. Use that and take it there Ain't you ever seen that? and use that and er I'll tell you later. And I'll tell you what to say to John later! No! Tell me! Well no ! Ah! Kathleen, have you ever seen my deodorant? Jamie? Cos you just No. lend me your ruler? I wanna borrow it to measure my thing back here. Oh I've seen it a couple of times, yeah. Does she mind the children? Not recently though. No it's gone. Kathleen, your a pal! No, no It's getting dead disgusting you know! Like to stay off. Jamie don't throw it! Can I get a It's dangerous! Don't throw! I'm sure I'm dying! Anyone who else who needs Oh good! Lovely! help just come to a bi , is there anyone else? Going that . Mm mm. Don't work. Lorna get on with it! Something like that. Just dump you in it! Mm. Thank you very much Kathleen! Hey! That's what I need! Where do you get that from? I'm only using . . I haven't got . Cos that's from a moon or the sun. Looks like the sun and then dark colour blue to do the moon. If you want. It's up to you. Yeah. Carry on Lorna. Cos it's your thing anyway. Well Amanda's . Right, this weekend You're meant to test it on us. What sort? What sort do you want? I dunno! Your clever aren't you? Oh trust her! I dunno. Ow! Hang on. Lorna, look at Carl . Oh, I thought he was offering a lift. No thank you. I wan , I want to la , I want to live for a bit longer. Kathleen, is that a bi , about right for a cube. It's staring right at you. Sewing cubes together. I mean Ask her. I think it might be a bit long actually. Okay, shorten it now. I don't know. Ask her. Let's have a look. Right. Erm Look. Yeah I know, but i , it might be better,as go Yeah. and ask her. Mrs 's the expert! Not bloody me! Yeah ! So Wurgh! I found this easy. But what you doing we you were doing the other thing on that. Yeah, but I'm just finishing that. Why don't you open you mi , you'll never get anywhere! Then again, I haven't done anything either, so Yes you have. You cut all that. I did that at home two weeks ago. I didn't do anything Kathleen. last week either. I'm sorry! Jamie! I thought . It'll all be tangling up underneath! Don't crash again. again. Lorna! What? Lorna! Lorna! Is it not Yeah. Dead sure! in three pieces Mm. You sure Amanda knows what she's doing What's he saying? do you? I don't know. He's not. I'll bet! It is. I've seen it on the floor anyway. Oh! Ha! What's he's on with that? This sounds like an interesting conversation! Right. There. Your tension's too, er you doing it your tension's wrong. It is all wonky like. It's . Well done. Amanda! Just putting this in pocket. Use different machines. This one I we I use this one. Actually I know, but, urgh! Disgusting machine! This machine's stupid! I can never get it to work properly. I've told you, I've, well I've never used this machine, machine before have I? Ooh! Lorna's ! Try it on a different piece cos you've got like a se , a a seam there anyway. Oh Jesus! I'm going to do that. Sew it on that bit. Anyway, when? Saturday. Dunno. Lorna, are you coming? If you, oh shit I've just ripped it! I laugh if she caught it in the But, well I've twisted it, I've er fixed it. You've got it all tangled up now! Mm. Well I'll go on. You're gonna ha Oh this machine is really pissing me off! Erm Lor you're gonna bo , you're gonna wreck that bloody machine let alone the mate I don't care! Look at that! It's not even sewing properly now! Oh shit! Shall I go on another machine? Right people! Just so you know how much time you've got left, Lorna, I would like you off that table please! I do not like anyone ! They're not designed for human bodies so that's small machines only! Small machines! You've got about five minutes Lorna is small! working time, then I want you all clearing up please. Five minutes. Can I remind you too that you've got till half term. I'm not going away. So you better start shifting yourself some of you! How long is for half term? Oh right. About time. You've got,you haven't got any time, you haven't got any time to do anything now anyway! Look! So it's a bit late now! This What you doing numbers or letters? I'm doing numbers. I've Well I could be . That's not true , that int and you know it int! I can get all this simple That's yours Lorna. The the one's That nice! How you gonna do the number two though? Cos can't use that doing that, well you can use a a ruler but it's not very easy. I don't know. Erm Number one. It , what number are you doing up to, twenty? Yeah. How far could she count now? Probably probably could count up to twenty for all I care! Well that's a bit stupid isn't it? Going to help to develop her things if she can already do it! It's Hey! a bit of a waste of time! Why are you walking about Kathleen? Cos I'm fed up! We've got nearly fa , fifteen minutes left! She said five minutes. Yeah, and then you pack up. No, she said ten minutes of packing up. Do you? There are fifteen minutes left. I'm gonna sort this out anyway. She did that thing. She did that fu , that clock thing with the cat on didn't she? Wonderful! What ! I must go round to her house and watch that film. You did! She told me not to come round she did! Probably cos cos anyone likes her any more. That's a load of crap that is! Don't like What? That she can count to twenty or that she can't? Sa , is that the same? Or That is. Has she been recording cos I wanted my voice to be in there! Are you recording that stupid thing at the moment. She better not be! Alright, yeah. You're alright. You're alright Amanda, it's recording. What? Sh , er she didn't hear you ! Amanda just called you a super piss head! Why? Don't worry about it. Because I say so! Why? She's in one of her moods! Right deci , decide how you're gonna do that then. Yeah, well I'm . Is it? Amanda! She's always pissed off with me for some reason! She said That's why she comes up to me and grabs hold of my shirt! When you getting rid of the stupid thing? Ain't telling you! Please? Next Monday anyway. Next Monday after Before then. Kathleen? Does Kelly know about it? Who? Kelly ? Don't say anything. I dunno. Don't say anything Why, why , why have you got a then? Because I'm doing a research thing. I don't know! For who? This erm, something to do with the English language people. Have you got to tape all people's voices? They want to know how they want to know how it's spoken and that. What? What, on tape? Do different they want to know how the English language is spoken and that. That'll be interesting!! Precisely ! What I was thinking when she asked me, but, never mind! Lorna! Have you got She wanted to know how it actually goes. Interesting about it at Lorna's house. Has she given you some tapes? Yeah. You sure? This sounds really weird! Shut up! I don't want everyone knowing about it! Fourteen. She said it's . Oh! I can't walk! Hello Lorna! See! I thought she said pack away and she didn't! We got fifteen minutes yet ! Oh no Lorna! Are you going in fifteen minutes? No, we got nearly five now. Oh you ! Look at that she's scoffed a Picnic bar, now she's scoffing a bloody Crunchie ! Oh I love Crunchies! They're gorgeous! And she's scoffed them all in this lesson! I'm putting No the buttons in. Hide! You can't You use buttons. Look she's in front of you. Lorna! I think laughing when they coffee. Excuse me! What you eating Lorna? Nothing ! Come on! Hand it Come on! over! Hand it over! Hand over your grub! Go on Lorna. I won't tell them. Lorna. Blackmail! Do us a favour? Lorna! Go on, please? Do us a favour Angela, can you pass me that bag that's on the floor by your feet? Yeah. Which one? That plastic bag. Amanda! That one? No. Pardon? Amanda! Ow! That nearly hit me! Who's Kathleen? We got a . We ge , we always get done in this lesson don't we? Me? Kay told her. Kay. She's going on the machine. We won't need that any more You've got a nice one. this lesson. Yeah, I've nearly done. Well I know you've grabbed it from inside my bag. Oh! Do me a favour? Mm? Amanda! Wind it up. my . What? It's alright Wind it up. I've got a bad back as well. Roll what up? I've I've got a bad leg! got a bad knee! I wonder where I got that from? I've got a bad er I've got a bad, my pain , every time I move well this side really hurts! I know what it is though. What? We're a bit too young! Well I don't know. So it's not got a pain down that one ? Yeah ! Too much school work! I just got my bad it just comes and it just hurt, it feels like it's going click but it's not going click. Yeah. Okay! Right ! Sound like an old fogey! She is one isn't she ! Aren't you? Lorna? Your older than me! You must be crippled! Oh God! I'm older than her ! Oh! When's your birthday? How old are you now? Oh, I'm eighteen. How old are you now ? On your birthday. How old are you now? No , fifteen. Then you're older than me. Well my birthday Yo you're fifteen in December? Yeah. Oh, she is older than me! Ah! That means she's the cripple of our group! Yeah. Yours is the twentieth of September innit? I'm not gonna call you . Oh you're one day younger than Michelle. You're a month older than me. And I'm about,yo younger than all of you. Yeah. You're on the fifteenth, sixteenth of October cos my mum's birthday is sixteenth of October. Oh I know! That's right. There's something about the sixteenth in your house. Mm. Something about the month of September in our house. Well both my and my dad. You better make sure you don't swear on that thing actually. It is recording because Can I remember you that you're supposed to be working on this for a minimum a minimum of four weeks for about three quarters of an hour a week minimum time! And hopefully you're putting in more than that. What? Has it been going this lesson? And then maybe you've been thinking of putting double that Yeah, some o you're on it. Pardon? When is it recording? During the . Have you been In where? recording in this lesson? Wendy was saying, is it recording? Is it recording? That bit? Yeah ! Where was that? Which bit? Just have to just have to remember. And it's got Can you What? remember? Oh is that where you've recorded? I don't know. I don't know when she did that. And I go Ah no! That is Oh God ! What ? Oh yeah! That was Now she's gonna go and die of embarrassment and not come anywhere near me for the rest of the week! Oh that's, that's a good idea actually! Get rid of that one! Who else can we get rid of? Amanda! Amanda! Hi Sonia! Hi! What are you doing? Is that a jigsaw ? That could be that one. It is, it's gonna be one of those pot things you pick them out of. Says it's not a jigsaw, but it is. Are you going to have them little pins ? Oh, use that up! Who else has got their work needs putting away in a large drawer? Ah urgh! Ah! What did you just call me? A bitch! Amanda! I think I got it. You got it! You got it! I think. Amanda! Oh well done! Oi! You got him calling me a bitch. And you got him calling me filthy! You having a Polo Kelly? Er,. Yeah? Yeah. There you go. Watch Erm it! She'll walk through the door and we're, we're chomping away. We have to get . Has Claire got a ? Let's see what you've got. You had to leave this till the last. If you ask me, it looks like a load of picture of heads all over the bloody place! What is that? F eight. Well it's, it's between F seven and F eight. The when do you go on holidays then? Now it's the end of the chapter. Where are you? Oh! Don't ask! Good idea! B? Mm, yes. Which question? Four? I gotta see. How many questions have you done today three? Yes ! Yes. I've done one, two, three, four five, six Cos I'm on second Matthew chapter. I'm on my seventh question. Oh you're jammy! I'll have one. I was gonna ask you next. Don't worry. Are you sure? Mm. I'm sure. As soon as that packet has gone No , now has it gone? That was so funny! What? That's right. I've done two! I can't do one of them. Right. Let me do this one na Where's the twenty five quid voucher? What? Where's the twenty five quid voucher? Marks. Marks! Twenty five quid! Alright for some! I know. What's that? She got this voucher for Christmas, twenty five quid! From Marks and Spencers. Who from? One of my aunties. All my aunties And I and I got erm I didn't get any credit off of my grandmo , off my grandma for Christmas. She just normally just gives us a fiver each for Christmas I didn't get any from my gran. and birthday. My gran don't buy me at Christmas. She give me three quid for my birthday. Well, one gran that lives alone we get five pound an for each birthday, we normally get five pound for a birthday and then she buys us a present for Christmas or a gift voucher. We got a fiver off her this Christmas. And then I got twenty, I couldn't believe it when I, when I got twenty quid off my other grandma, she normally gives us a fiver. My grandad gave us The most she's ever given us was a tenner she gave us one ga ga , for going away. But last Christmas my grandad gave me eight quid Well she went away this and ma my brother ten and Christmas at home. My dad's mum, she lives , one here and one's in . So we got more money and then mum and dad were and me and my brother are supposed to have . Mm. When my mum and dad discussed they decided to give me and my brother twenty five pound each and have And then twenty pound theirself . Yeah. But my aunty and uncle gave my cousins fifteen pounds each and have theirs to themselves. And my mum and dad thought of giving us that and my mum's just lost her job. They couldn't have given it Yeah. When she told me What did you get from your mum and dad. So I Me? Not a lot. So I got twenty five quid from my grandad cos he make . Eight? Yeah. And from my grandma, erm from my grandma, gran I got erm twenty pound, no, five pounds cos she's like got forty I know. nephews. Yeah, well the one I got, I go , one I got five pound off she lives alone and she's in that flat and everything. Yeah. Are you, er, this year was the most I got off my grandma and that as well. My dad bought me these bought me a micro , bought me a twenty five pair of erm pyjamas from Marks cos I saw them. What were they like? I can't explain it really, it was just that they got a big massive . Yeah. I don't like the The nightshirts? You can get them in other shops as well. I think they must have there and I don't like huge cut, I like the tiny one you can get . She bought me a mug. She bought Yeah. me a key ring, which is one of the Forever Friends ones. Oh yeah. She bought me, a necklace,. I've got one like that. Erm, didn't want to say, so it was something like a key or something. Yeah. Erm It's got nothing on it. We got erm, got erm she bought me some Maltesers and she bought me a chocolate orange as well. Well my gran And er had a and she's not even my aunt, she's dad's friend. Well my my erm gran had a friend over, she came to see, she came for Christmas dinner. My gran had forgotten about coming over, you know and so we rem , reminded her wasn't Christmas eve, the day before Christmas eve,tha you know, to see if she was still coming. couldn't remember. Yeah. And she goes erm, she goes ooh, I didn't know I was invited! Like she always does! But erm it is,sh but her friend er, still when she came she bought us this,was this big erm it was like that big, by about that big of Harlequin sweets for us all. Hey! You know Roger? Yeah, I know, I didn't think she se , she didn't realise that you know that she was seeing this Is the same Roger that was on the erm ? Not that I, not that I know of, no. What? Well, at first I didn't realise Lorna was going out with Roger. Then Lorna said that it,i So what,? as far as I can make out it's a different Roger to what she knows. It's not Roger the lodger in her case. I think i Ro Roger that Yes. sent her it's a different Roger, but I don't know. I found out. Wha , who is it, is it? I'm not saying. I've found Oh! out. I found out from Andy, he came back with him Sunday night, no Monday. Is it Roger the lodger? Cos is he, he re he really Yeah. from what he said. Oh! I asked in front of the whole class, and you get out Lorna. And it is. It wasn't Yeah. If it, if it pissed him off, he's with an old hag it I'm not saying! must be! I'm not saying. Don't worry, I'm not gonna tell Lorna anything. Look if you were in a lecture would you like someone coming up,coming up to you , and you go, oi! Are you going out with Amanda's little mate, Lorna? I still thi , I still Who's about, who's about seven years younger than you! I still think it is, cos I'm not sure, but I must be. The way she just said that. Yeah. I think it a , it is isn't it? I told you, I'm not saying. We won't say anything. I bet it is! I'm not saying! You didn't, you didn't need to tell! I'm not. And we're not gonna say anything. And, cos of Would he really go up to Lorna and tell him that there is that paper cos Lorna won't No, you're , you're gonna go up to Lorna and you're gonna say, Lorna, you're going out with Roger ! Yeah, well she knows that. Yeah, I know, but the point is we've gotta say that to Lorna She's not any more anyway, so it doesn't really matter. Yeah but Why isn't she? It sounds better coming from Ah? He, oh. Apparently he's not going out any more. Yeah. I mean, Roger and Lorna. Why? Oh right! That's wha , that's who I thought you were talking, I thought you were talking about them. About who? Roger and Lorna. Who is? Well why did you want, oh shut up! I'm getting sick of this! She's got more sweets! Ah? Oh they're for, they're for break. Yeah! We believe you! That's why you,, don't worry. What are they? Oh! I'll try and get one. Turkish delight is it? No. Oh. Fudge. Oh! Yeah. I know. We got a massive box of them left over from Christmas. Yeah ! Tell me! I don't know. Yes you do! I don't! You do! I don't! You do! I don't! Amanda, who are you going out with? Mm? Who are you going out with? . Kelly knows about it! I think. About what? I'm talking to Kathleen . No! Ha? What? What you going on about? Nothing. What were you going on about? I am talking to Kathleen, not you! Talk to Kathleen then, not me! Hello. Still not talking to you! Kelly, will you just talk No! Don't think so. I don't know. he's shaved them both round! She's gone in to have words with him. Shall I go and get the answer? Is that one two one? Yeah. Cos it's one over two, and then it's back over one from Oh. that one. I've done them now then. Thank goodness! Oh I did my one different. I did mine, one two one two on this. Right. Hang on! Two, over one Two over one. Tt! I think I've just scrubbed one out that's right. Over Two, over one. Oh I think this is . You did? Well sort of, cos Kelly did it. Watch how you done it, I've got another lesson to finish so . Yeah. What have you got? A over Is that your dribble? Yeah. Is it? Urgh! Can we turn over? Yep. It's not bad. Well no I think, just slightly maybe. Erm er twenty past, oh! We might get are we doing last nine or not? What? Are we doing last nine? No? Right then. Where are they? We've finished. If we ain't doing last nine. Come on, let's have a look. Let's see what it's like from our ex What? Are we doing them or not? I've done that. What? The eight? I know. Stuff that! If it's easy I might know. Gotta finish this . Why? I can't be bothered with that just there. Cock it up then. He'll go after them and You're not allowed though. as well as me. Yeah, cos I did them on my, on my own at home. Cos I've that and that, and this ones goes Don't you remember? You don't have to do graphs. It didn't matter. I did that I did that by myself, you know, off the other thing, one. I know that. But you don't have to take the . What? On that one? I don't know. Well what did you make that? She said we're allowed. You said you're allowed? No, you're not allowed cos they've signed all the papers. What, who's they signed all the papers? I don't know. Apparently, there's all these papers in the top class for maths. Oh well! I'd stay in the top class cos you got I wouldn't I haven't, but I'd, I'll stay in it. You got a better chance of getting better marks anyway. You can get just as good marks if from . I know, but yo might as well just stay put here. Might you? Yeah, well stay put here. Er th , I doubt if you can le you can leave anyway because erm we're way ahead of them. We are. Yeah. They're only on Y two. Yeah. You won't be able to go in. Well, it's not good unless go back . I know, but you still wouldn't Okay. If I drop off school for erm no? No. What ? Mm. They won't let you do it anyway. They'll just make you do it in here. Well I'll go in get the next, next week's maths class. That's okay, I'll . Yeah. Do you know when I went out to the maths thing I was waiting for , I was there and I was heard about these forgotten a calculator! Oh! Oh! What are you doing in an exam and you've forgotten a calculator, eh? Go next door and borrow one. Well he bought in the batteries for himself. Well, she could have just said oh well you can borrow some they're on sh shelf in the maths room. She kept them in the other day because she sa , erm or something need to keep the, we think it was them anyway with Mrs kept one group in cos erm, she said that someone had nicked off with her pen or something and it was underneath the desk, it had rolled off the desk! Oh God! Sat them in for the whole of the break and one group of her, hers I think. Well, most of the break anyway. Yeah. Till they gave it back. And no one dare admit that it was on floor cos she'd think they'd put it there. And someone did and she goes, oh we , but why didn't no one tell me? And that lot! Who put it there? Like this. She Oh! was having a right go at them! Nobody put it there, it fell off! Is that Helen's class? I don't know. It was done er, when it was mi Mrs or Mrs . Not gonna be thinking, David concen He'll like that. they're taking a lot Ah? of concentration over there because of that erm thing out. I mean, it's only going up on the wall with those three others. Oh God! Look at that one! There's only three people's up there Look at that one! already. The one with the like The bottom one. Yeah, is that Jenni's? Oh! Is one of those yours? No wa , the bottom one's Jenni's? But what a surprise! Surprise! Surprise! Oh I bet that one was up first! No it wasn't. Why? Glynis, hers was up and then Jenni's went up. Oh! Glynis up? That, the red one is hers. Mrs 's. It's not. Oh well, who is it? It's Laura's. Oh. It's Laura's, and then Jenni's is up. Laura's? No, you're not telling me that she did that! Just by doing two maths . Yeah maybe. Just joining the points up, and she's put extra ones inside. Why? Ow! What was that? It hit my finger! finger ! Hit my finger ! Ah! You made it go wonky and it didn't then! If you'd have said, I will move you sort of like went Kathleen? I went, yeah? And you flicked it ! At me! Could have said move! Well you yo you moved it and just missed David. Ah! Do it again with something else. May say you can What time is dad coming back? Normal time I expect. So having dinner then? Yeah. What you trying to do? I've put some two new, you hook them on. I've put two hooks in on that side and there's that one across there. Oh right. Why? Really so that I've got more lines up there, not like, when they're I've got plenty of lines you see. Yeah. But erm but I thought I'd made a mistake somewhere. Why have you? Cos I, well I doubt if it would go alternate. But it's there to there, to there, to there to there I took it to there didn't I? That's what I did. But I could make that one back as I had it. Oh I'll leave you I'll leave you to it then. Looks a bit grey! Mm, I know. See what you mean about your dumplings being crispy. Oh yeah, yeah. He's gotta find out about her being pregnant Yeah. before he goes. Want some herbs in these so This table's a long way this way isn't it? Wanted a bit more spice in it, yeah. Mm. Ah! Oh yeah, this is where it finally gets him. Some mushrooms and onions in it wi with a bit of herbs and a Mind you, I don't get very long to do it in. No. Is there any more gravy? No. No. Must have dried it up. Oh! Is it too hot? Yeah. Yeah. Could you bring me a drink please Susan? Just a bit! Yeah. Thanks. Oh that one is very high up. Mm. Coke? Yes please? Could you do me one? Well with it being sort of half warm and She had one Coke. Half a one! There's half a can in there still. Half a can? Where's that off? Who had the can? In the car. I passed it back to them but it's Oh mum. some in it on there. Well, pass me the can through Susan. What? Pass me the can. Oh ! I don't feel like watching this. Did you bring your list in? Mhm. And check it? Mhm. A lot? No, well not a lot. Are you at Sorry! no you're watching football tonight aren't you dad. Mhm. Can you pass me, my drink over please dad? Just, mum's there. Mum. Mhm. And, probably got visitors as well. Why? Who? Brendan. Brendan's Is it? probably coming down to Who's Brendan? I think so, I don't think he's bringing anybody with him. What, to watch the football? Oh! You're watching it here? Yeah cos they want to take erm, the beer as well. Well, it's one way to get rid of it. That's right. Can't have a jolly time without your mates. Mm. Brendan from up the road? Kirsten and Hannah's Grandad. See the A four five's, er three's been closed yesterday Mm. tonight. Well There's been an accident, I'm sure, on the motorway. Cos of an accident. Mm. Just re-opened it at twenty to six. Well they did, I didn't know there'd be another one. There was one yesterday or the day before. Well I'm not we , well did they was that one in the fog last night? What? Might well have been. A crash? There was a bad one at Ne , near Newark in the fog. Well that was tea time yesterday. That was the, was the driver seven car pile up or something, or more. Fourteen cars wasn't it? Mm. Maybe it was, I'm not sure. Mum, I told you you needed some more erm gravy. I don't know why sh , hadn't have been so dry to begin with. It didn't have any liquid in it. That's why your dumplings Water. And you rinsed? Mm. Well you can't have had much in it. It said half a pint. Yeah, but when we have a pint and a half o er, pound and a half of mince so you should have a three quarters of a pint. Another quarter. That's probably why. Ya. She realises now! Well as long as it was cooked. Mm. Cooked alright. Mm. Do you want an ice cream after? Yes I do think Yes thanks it's cooked and but it doesn't taste as good and it Mix it in with the your I don't know. potato it's gorgeous! I mean we've got to see it's a wonder they haven't been on to us cos they've stopped the er Probably haven't found out and stopped it yet. Well he said I'd pass it on. Mum you Who'd you go and see, the Well you go upstairs to the bank. Bank, yeah. That's what I thought. And then I I, I handed it to the lad, he said I'll pass it on. Oh. Mum So we could go, I'm watching Have they had th that. Can if we wanted to. Yeah. Well put an indoor aerial on it so you can Can I have it my room? Well no. No! In mine? No. You've all got decent No. ones. No, we'll put it downstairs cos when we want to watch Home and Away we can watch it. We all got our own ones. Right. I'll get I went I didn't re realise it was Wednesday when we realised Police cap. it closed. I'll go tomorrow. Can go and move your chair up . It's a police outfit in then the hat. Yes. That's . Outfit. I know. And that side there's Yeah. there's one. Give it to him. Yeah I know but Mum, I know Lydia's pastry was cooked. Oh did you? I know cos we were breaking bits off it cos it had gone over the edge. Mm. And and we were sa , er, we were eating it. Right, we'll do that on the way back from taking the that back there. Is it alright? Apart from being dry. I know. Well he wouldn't He's just put down Sophie . Oh. Podged! You can say that again. Well say that again. Oh! And you've nearly finished. Well, I've got just a mouthful and you've got loads left Susan. I know! Pardon me! Oh. Not today. Had Oh! it yesterday and Tuesday. Mary's got mum to write a letter cos she doesn't want to do games cos of her leg. I I, mum! I did games and my knee hurt! No, erm, Mary's hurt her foot. Yeah, well I know. You were let off a couple of times before . We were doing health and fitness i , on Tuesday and my knee hurt! She's only limping on it at certain times cos she came rushing into my bedroom last night and you weren't limping then! I was! Ow! Don't you hit me! Alright then! Ooh! Which door's open? Oh the Back door back door. and the garage door. Both? Ooh! No wonder it's cold! It's . Are you ever planning on giving me my clip back by any chance Susan? Susan! Oh! I might be. Ooh! You might be might you? Yes. When I've finished with it! Aha! Ooh! Ah! Ooh! Hush! Susan! Little Susan! What do you want now? Creep! Creep! Creep! You should have ta taped Mark yesterday. What? Should have taped Mark yesterday. Why should I? Cos er they, she, he said that I didn't have it on me. I know. He said that he heard something like and mum and dad said he saw you and he said, hope she's gonna tape it. How does Urgh! how does he know? Cos I told him. Precisely! And I told you not tell anyone and you weren't going to Mary! And I You told nearly all, all the third year about it! I did not! Most of them know and I said how? And it's from Go and see Mark. you! From you! I told Mark, Fay, Lydia Yeah well telling Mark's like telling the whole school! He's got a And you weren't meant to tell anybody! He's got a gob big as a wa , bigger than a whale! I'll tell Mr for you. No! I have. Told him last Friday. And what did he say? He goes, oh! Wanted to know why, why it would . Mary it's none of your business to go and tell him! He's not your head of year ! It's got nothing to do with you apart from yo i , it's one of your teachers! Well Kathleen, you should have gone and told him. I didn't have to go and tell him. As long as I told a teacher I was alright. Did you tell a teacher? Yeah! Who? I'm not telling you! Cos it's none of your business! Tell whichever one I want! And I tried to keep away from Claire and I have! Yeah! She hasn't said anything. Oh yeah, to Claire that's alright. I keep my gob shut to Claire and er Yeah! Makes a change! And yo , shout it out to everything el , everybody else! I, I even everybo cos she even, she says, oh I know you're hiding something from me! When you're not there, you know Yeah. Well just say no. I go no I'm not. And it would nearly it cos I go if I am, it's none of your business! He says, okay then, what? I go er nothing! I went oh ! Yeah, well yo I I'll, I'll tell her on Friday anyway. But I mean, I was gonna tell her Yeah, tell her on Saturday. No! I'll tell her on Friday. No, Saturday cos then then yo you Oh shu haven't got the tapes or anything have you? Well, so I won't, I won't give them to her. No, no, can I say something though. Kathleen's got something really, really exciting to tell you Don't say anything! Just leave it. Ee ee ee! You trying to break your neck or something? No! Oh! Don't move that! Can you do this? Yeah, but I've got a bad knee remember haven't I? Oh yeah! Oh Yes! Ha! Ha! This is you. Ooh! Yeah, let's run around! Oh! Oh! She wants to get all her knee ! Yeah, she came into my room running and then turned around and went out hopping! Ooh my foot hur hur hurts! Mum my bin's here. Oh right. Oh right! Where? Can't see for all these covers. Ghost train in here. Ow! Ow! Ow! What did you do? Susan just punched me! Well pack it in both of you! Oh! My my toe hurts there where she kicked Now Mary it back! it's not good to stick one finger up! I've got se erm how many, eight fingers, two thumbs Ow! Urgh! You're gross! But why? I've got You know what Mary did to me? Yeah. Right. Claire bent my toe back and it hurt, she does this. Then wanted it, it hurts! Oh don't worry about it! But I don't care do I? I'm not making a big fuss like Mary! Mary go and get a drink if you're go carry on Yeah, or hold your breath for fifteen to thirty minutes! Pardon me. Oh! When that changes to twenty seven I'm not gonna hold my breath now. See how long she can do it for. I can do it for one minute twenty seconds. Yeah, it's not good to hold your breath for too long, mind. Oh! About thirty five seconds. And now she's way of breath! Yeah. Oh! I think I'm going to have It's just that Tunes . I don't mind as long as I could get rid of my cold. Something to get rid of my cold. No holding your nose. Oh! Oh! Oh oh! Mm mm! . What were those funny noises for? I was going to do, so you can do that because you've put in here. Well at least I did that's, there's more in there. You did about the same actually. Get off! Ooh! Look it's mop head! Ooh! Have you got anything for my cold? That I can take? Not really no. Ooh that's a rubbish! Why? I want to get rid of it. And I don't know what to take. I mean I've put some Vicks on my chest last night and it felt as if it was burning! Burning me! Mum, Susan wants you. What? Have we got any apples? Has she got any apples? Yep. Can I have one please? Yeah, find it yourself love. Mary! what colour? Oh se , er red, she won't be able to eat erm, eating them I want another one. Which one do you want? Oh. The smaller one. Mm. No the bigger one. Alright. Give it to her. Catch! Neeow! Good catch aren't I? Ow! This bin's still her mum. Yeah it's Mary's! I know it's no It's not. It is your bin Mary! Oh! Sorry! My old bin. Well Mum. The bin, oh! The bin is here! I know! Well er, there's Mary's bin! Oh right. Her, there you go. Are you getting out? I put the other two pound with the money. Alright. So I'll put the five in the . Go Susan! Okay. You might as well move . No, you can see Paul, look Claire! I know! He's coming Claire can se into the middle tonight then. Alright. It's easy for Susan in the middle tonight actually. Cos there's Claire He has Claire to himself doesn't she? And there's them on that side. And your dad'll dry you. All ready. Hi! Come in and wait. Come in for five minutes, she's not had her tea yet! Come on! Just shut it! Make it stay shut. Come on! Doolally! It's shut! You int got all day! Christine's sitting out in the car! Oh! Is it cold out Kathleen? She's got Yeah. Is it? Fairly, anyway. Oh! Depends on how you're going at the drive at. Oh! Oh you're tired Kathleen? I've been bone idle can't keep my But french fries Yeah, me too. Pat eat some and Well eat up it erm he scoffed. No I don't want it. You have it. Cos I was sort of like listening to my music and it was, I think it was about half eight, nine o'clock cos I'd only got some homework done for ne , to do for next Tuesday, so I thought I'll leave it Yeah. cos it's gonna be an assessment piece so Oh God! so I left it and I was sort of like, falling asleep so I thought oh right, and so I turned off my music, went to sleep, then woke up again and Ah! She did that didn't you? You woke up! I went to bed at eight and then woke up at nine. And then I was coughing for ages then mum goes oh you, I go oh, I feel terrible! She goes what after all your coughing all the way through the night? She, she did yesterday, yeah! I, I woke up go on! Ooh! Barbara's down there int it? I've been er I mean, I don't always know that I'm coughing all the Cough, cough, cough you go, yeah. time, cos like when I went to Joanie You like do it often yourself don't you? I could do it , yeah, cos like my first night I didn't realise I was coughing so much but erm, her mum heard me, she said in the morning but Yeah. did I want a drink so Hiya! I've been doing what she's been doing, I think, all night. Coughing? Oh! I'm fed up with it! Did you come to play with that? Yeah! He's, yeah, that's my birthday present! I thought you were just going to make it Christmas presents? No, no, no, no no I had a coffee maker for Christmas, you know Yeah. and I took it back. Why? Well, it's such a bloody palaver! Was that that one, that were at, it were showing in Asda? Was that the sort they were showing Asda one day? I don't know. No, she wants a bag. A cappuccino type one? It was a cappuccino one, but it was fifty quid it was! And er Hold on a bit. And er, I said erm well it's too much of a palaver, and it would e , it would e , it co it hadn't got enough to ke , you have to keep filling it up Urgh! to do the milk, and I said oh! I'd sooner have summat else than use that. And get an ordinary filter coffee like mine Yeah! sort of thing. Yeah! So erm anyway er he bought, he ordered me a tumble dryer so that come yes er er Tuesday when he was off. So er he'll feel better on Sunday so er So you're not going to church Sunday? Right. And she's not staying tonight cos she's full of cold and she weren't very good when she come home yesterday er They're all full of cold aren't they so evening so erm she said by the time she's gone all you know, all day she's had enough so she's not stopping now. I dunno , I mean you might depends on the heat I don't fancy going all the way out there anyway. Well, if you did, if you did Yeah. Pete won't be home on Sunday then will he? Well he wi ee, hopefully he's coming home late Saturday night. Oh! Yeah, he sho , he erm, they're running late Oh cos he was a three day Yeah. session that Yeah. , yeah. It is a shorter session. They're running late so they're hoping they're gonna work extra time each night. They don't finish till half past nine the earliest, any night! Er, and there are extra, at least an hour on every night he said, so er To finish on Saturday. To finish on, they've got to finish Saturday no matter what, yes. Bet they'll be go be going into the early hours of Sunday morning ! He said, honestly! It's absolutely Ooh! Of course then it's shame for them. Yeah, but he rung somebody yesterday, the chap's asking to pick him up last rather Mm. than first so he could see Claire with her not being very well mid-morning and er he said er Well it's er on the way out as well. I'm really looking forward to this, are you Pete? He re you know, he is, yeah. They're all the same. He says i it's such long days this is the trouble! You know, so erm he'll be glad to be home I think. So you put your dryer in the garage? Yes. Yeah. Put it in the er near the far door I've put it. So you can spent it out? He's put, put a new er socket in on Tuesday. Oh another so Well then we ain't gotta traipse wires across so you can put it in Oh! Cos it was up in the side, yeah. Yeah. There's one at the back of the free , double one at the back of the freezer, so he's put it right this side so it's just up above it there. Oh! Mine stays permanently inside just have to Well tha ,thi that's what this is, yeah. But I do switch And have you got it off because it's so wet in there! Oh aye, yeah! Er, I've put a cloth on the top of it cos we'd only put it in on the Tuesday and it was wet through on the top! Cos it was just dripping off, cos it's a tin roof, aluminium roof! And when it, when it gets mild, it just pours straight off! You know what you would, I would suggest you did? You know the instead of just putting a cloth straight on it Yes. you know the strawb the tomato boxes? Tomato boxes? You know? Them cardboard things with handle on? No? The wooden ones. Oh yeah! You know the ones that you you know Yeah. like I have in my garage with the bits on edge to Yeah! Yeah! stack them up? We well one or two of those on top of it, turned Yeah. Yeah. so that they're standing with a gap On the And then your cloth on so that the cloth isn't sitting on the top because it'll rust it, if it's wet. Will it? Yeah. Oh right! Where would I get one of them Cos it won't dry on top from? Round the be , erm round Out the greengrocers? Ask them if they've got some wooden What a tomato box? the old toma type tomato boxes. Oh! Alright. I'll do that then. And put we well one or two on Yeah! Just Just to leave lift it off because So i if it's sitting on the top and the top doesn't get that hot. Ah! The top doesn't get Right. hot so that, not enough to dry So it won't be enough to dry it out. Oh yeah. Oh right! Oh we'll do that then. It might be better er, have you stood it on so , if it's damp in the garage on the floor? Yes. On some wood. Yes, I got some Right. wood er, things and the pipes To lift it on? and I thought he can put that on something so that's not resting on the floor as well, cos that's where the wet's on the Yeah. floor. Cos your pipes should be I think you have to be really, your pipes should be levels, should go I drape my pipe over it if I do it, or hang it up at the back. Oh dear! Shouldn't it be on the floor? Oh! Cos it has to do that. You really want it on level. Do you? It's easier if it's on the level ah side up cos it should I've never had mine on the floor. It should go out of a window Yeah. or high up but if you've got a little hook Oh! on it you Yes. know how you is there a metal erm thing to hold it on on Yeah. Yeah. to the back? Yeah. Well that's, what I do is I use that metal that you can hang it with and just hang it onto a little hook so it's up and over and out of the way. And that's how it should be is it? Well Pete didn't Should be sho know that. And Well we didn't, we didn't put it like that. Should have just No. laid it straight on, flat on the floor. Well I, I wouldn't lay it on the floor cos i , cos it'll just er it tends to hold the condensation in it. Does it? Oh right! Okay? Oh we'll look into that and ! Blow up! Well my, my, my , well mine's just had enough I was just filling my bowl in the lounge cos somebody said to me to get water in the lounge in a bowl see if it could help me with my breathing, you know. Cos you got your gas fire on. Well I ain't got my gas fire, no, she's Well if your gas fire's on it shouldn't No, central heating. Course, this morning yesterday while he was at home, I said to him the bathroom radiator's just not quite warm enough Pete can you adjust it? He's touched it, and he's took it off out in the kitchen altogether, the kitchen's ! I said Why didn't you just turn the knob? Oh yeah! It's like, it's like He said I think the one balances you know since he's added that one in the ra in the kitchen Mm. Since he's added that one it's sent the system completely to put! Kaput! It maybe wants it's like mine, cos all upstairs wants balancing. Balancing, well we rang round , we rang what's his name? Roger. We done everything what you're supposed to do, Roger and he said it could take days and days for you to get it right! Does the bottom one want did the top want bleeding or the bottom one want bleeding again? No, we've tried all the bleeding business, and he said it's, the trouble is it's the bathroom and toilet, you moment you turn that slightly off it just cuts the ba er, kitchen off straight away. Cos they, it's ran off that one,i it joins over the, yeah. When one turns off? And it just sets it off. Well I would er, I mean I'd have the bathroom slightly cooler then and all ! Well , I think that's what we're gonna be doing. He'll have to i He'll to have another go! You used to have a, just a I did , last night and no ! Oh! I'm useless! You'll have to get, you'll have to get practising if they're going It weren't that cold to wear this morning though No. it's alright. So Well I mean all our be , all our bedroom ones are only just on and they're red hot! Ah. I've got my appointment through for the hospital, they rang me on Monday. Oh, when? Yeah, they've sent my letter, twenty eighth I've got to go. Mum's gonna go with me, I'm not going to work cos I've gotta go That's a Tuesday isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. I've Yeah. he, the day he goes to Birmingham it is. And I rang them and see if I could cancel it for the Monday and he only, the doctor doesn't sit on the Monday, so I've got What time is it on the Tuesday? Er well, my appointment with him is quarter past eleven, but I've gotta go at least an hour before to go and have a chest X-ray to whether it's clear and It's clear and Yeah. Or, so he can see it when I go and see him. Oh God! So I've told them I'm not coming to work that day. Well, get yourself so , I mean if you've think got to get yourself sorted Well I've got, I I'm going to take a , see if he can do something about this cough, cos it's driving me mad! Wet through all the time! Mm! I'm literally wet through in the night, I was! Just even I've been for a wee! It's the it's the sudden Yeah, and I, I I'm the sure I've pulled my back with it because my back does really ache. You ni not pull your stomach muscles? Well, I'd done that there, and that had gone by the time I went to the hospital and I thought brilliant! Great! Er, you know, I'm alright, and I've done my back now and I'm sure it's with coughing cos every time I cough now it really hurts! Yeah. So Better let you go hadn't I? See you tonight. I came up on the pools! All one pound and five P ! Oh! Oh! God! I thought you were gonna tell me you'd won a fortune ! I wish I had! End all our worries! I wish it had been a few more noughts on it ! Hiya! You alright? One pou , it wasn't Yes, alright. even worth sending the cheque for! I know! Put price on it. Er see, are you alright? Yeah. See you tonight then. Okay. Tara then! Thanks! Cheers! Bye! Ah! Ooh! That's with doing no,. You know, that's not meant for parking! Mm mm. Yeah. Your mum won't won't wha know what to do with herself now she's got the dryer. No more washing hanging around! Lovely! You don't your, use yours that often. No, but I hang it in the garage which is Yeah. the same as hanging it outside. Jackie will have to put hers in the er over the radiators didn't she Claire? And a clothes horse, so she had it in her lounge. Yeah. But I mean, being in the garages it's just hanging it outside. But I finish them off in the er in it. Yeah. I'll go and pop in here a minute. Take you Is it your dad's birthday after your mum's isn't it? Yeah. Cos you , it is what, the beginning of Feb February. er, February. I know there's only about a week between them isn't there? Fortnight. Fortnight between them. It's like Stuart and I, there's only te Oh! ten days, nine days between us. Yes. Got your ingredients for food? Oh shit! I've gotta ring mum. Tell mum no meat. No meat? I'm not allowed to get meat and stuff. Why? Cos we're vegetarians! Ah that's it, that's good! She's already put it on my . Is this another ? Yeah. Yo well but what? Amanda stinks! Oh right Amanda. I'm not having Why? like that ! Who don't you like, Kathleen? I don't, Samantha . I don't know, well I probably wouldn't know. I've got Amanda's shoes here. Erm oh it's that stall! Erm beefy beef! Oh God! Yeah, you don't. Oh thank you! Vegetarian meals, erm it's over here. Oh yeah. Saturday. It's that. Yeah, right. We've got speaking next week, and we've got erm listening We've got listening at we've got listening tomorrow. Ooh shit! Oh my God! With you. Lorna! Come on! What do you want? Lorna! What are they? What are they? Lor , where's Lorna gone? Oh she's gone down there? What? She's gotta go, er find phone her mum. Why? She's gotta go tell her mum that she doesn't me , she doesn't want any meat on the erm pizza cos it's meant to be a vegetarian. Yeah, that's what was talking about. I know you've got Thursday off. You got plenty done and that's what . Pardon? How did you know? Fine. Agreed? Right. Here. That's Nicki's. In here? Ah, but you don't have to do it.? Erm Oh! Well it's No I don't wanna bite your head off. No it's That is that I don't mind. Yeah. They're the ones that look sweet to begin with. I can't smell this very well. Well I put this on yesterday and I could smell it! Well, my mum put this on last night for me. She came in with ? ? If you walk past you'll find out. Be They'll probably make All looking at once! They'll probably make her erm do the erm go and e ask permission, but she said she'd asked permission. Has she gone in? Are they letting her through? She's by the . Mm! You're not allowed. She's gotta have permission, permission. Yeah, but still there. Aren't you allowed? Erm a, Miss , Mr or Mr the new deputy. Ask the new deputy. No I bloody won't! What will he say? All he does is moan! Mr is busy. Or Mr is too busy. Well go in on there. Still we , are you still there for that? Lorna! Lorna wait! Lorna! Lorna! You see are you going to take that . don't make me, don't, then then ask Mr . Go on ask Mr . I will then. Come on let's the new deputy. Yes. That's who he , each time ask Mr to come up to him. Alright. Finish your paperwork! Oh come Lorna! I don't think she's asking for you because they'll say Mr, Mr and that he'll see me. I've got a moment now and overtime's gonna go down to something. I'll phone up and then we ought to get you something. It's alright. Have you phoned? Yeah. Well we'll wait outside. No, Lorna wait here. Ah! Did you phone? No it's not. Did you phone? That's nice. I was sure about Oh you idiot! that's right. She just didn't think! John was there ! John I said please! Lorna. tickling her while I was talking to on the phone! You know how ticklish I am. Yeah. Who was tickling you when you were on the phone? John. John when I phoned her up. Oh right! And it's a right pain when I'm on the phone to her ! Crazy! And you had to phone Well I can smell something now. And I didn't phone her up last night. Wanted to know what you doing about that, and there's John, and it wasn't my fault! Stay here! Stay here! Shouldn't be so mad! He was Really? jumping around while I was talking to her on the phone, I was getting so pissed the phone. Oh well! I wonder what happened? I sa , I said is John there? You just take things lightly, you change the subject so they said who is John? Like that. And you go, and you go and you go, for the Oh right. cardigan, and they go, who is John? Just some of your friends ? And he's got a car! Yeah, that was something I said! And they fool you And you think oh thanks! You're so nice! But they wasn't on the phone you know, when you got there. It wasn't Claire, it was me. Cos he came up to me and goes Carl wants to know if you could Oh I tell you he wants to me her! No. Er, oh! I'm going John Yeah. Yeah, you might get him off me. I goes John erm Couldn't . he goes what? He goes wants Michelle like? I goes, erm She's very nice! Well put it this way she's nothing like Mick. Erm, he goes, oh good! I goes erm she's got a crooked nose like Kathleen! So she's really nice! And what did he say? Only joking ! He goes, he si he goes well, well he says anything different, it's completely to Kathleen I'll come! But if you said I don't want him to come. He's gonna be a , you know that! Shh! Get on with your work! Hey Manda! Yeah, come on. Me. She said what? Oi! He wo , he won't want to come on his own he No, no, watch me! Carl won't come on his own. No well he's coming with Johnny , he's driving us there. Oh right. ! Yeah. Somebody else is driving. Cos, I don't want Carl going up . I mean it! I wonder where's gone? Right. Lorna says if Carl comes she's not coming. I'm not gonna go outside. I'm not. Look well get it, go in the toilets or we're gonna get done if we don't go somewhere! Urgh! It stinks in here! I've got my essay. Oh I dunno. I need the loo! Oh God! Oh here we go! This is where she does, starts brushing her hair! Are you seeing him at dinner time? What? Are you seeing him at dinner time? No. Friday. No. In fact, Johnny's not picking me up from school again tonight. If Carl comes, I'm not. At half past. If Carl comes, I'm not. I mean that! No. Ah ah! He's not coming. If he does Does I'll tell you. then just I don't mean walk. erm. Ow! John's coming cos he said he'll drive us. Well we're going to, we, oh I don't know. Yes! Cos John You went home, you said to John John, you coming to the cinema with us? How, how And he goes, oh yeah! he goes and he goes you'll I'm coming by yesterday, and he goes oh by the way I'm coming to the cinema on Saturday with you, I said, you what! And you went, what! And she's saying, what the heck are doing outside the cinema, he goes I've been invited to come with you you lot. Yeah , and you said that you'll, he said Lorna to go to the cinema. He said he'll stay on my And he goes , he goes are you Okay. are you babysitting? Oh right. He said that you'll say that I'm his sister. Oh right. Anyway Cos I'm eighteen. He goes,a and he says he doesn't know how your gonna get in. And it's a fifteen. And anyway you'll think, you'll think erm oh I've forgotten now. Gone out . Who put that up in the paper? Not me! Wasn't likely to be any of us. Right now. Write mine down. Yeah, come on we'll have one. You're a bloody pair of nutters these! I'll have yeah, that's right. Amanda! Where did I put my bag around school? Come on Amanda! Stinge! Let's have one. ! I've only got half. I haven't got any! Oh! Oh! This is the last one. I bet! it's the last one. If you want I'll cut you it in half otherwise. Would you? So John's coming? And what about Carl? Yeah. No. She doesn't want Carl to come so let's go, we have to go outside cos Mrs is gonna kill us! What? I'm ringing, I want to ring mum. Well go in then cos no one 's on the phone. If we get done, your dead! Then I was on the phone in na lower school. Do want a Oh forget that! There's more than one phone in there! Yeah, but they all said the same thing don't they? Alright, yeah. We're bound to get caught cos somebody's outside there. Why? Don't normally. Well depends if there's a group. So, we'll soon find out before. What we got next? Oh shit! I've got science! I've gotta go to the common room and get my bag, are you coming? Yeah. Who you got? I dunno. I like them. I've got Mr . Yeah. Oh I've got Chemical patterns. Get off! All I know is . You've got a chance then. So have you! I haven't. Oh God! The lessons yesterday were so boring! I know! But you can't get We had to do things off the board. I've gotta go get my Ooh! If I come back you're on the phone. We had No. to, going on about Oh I missed it. irons all through the lesson! Yeah. Who have you got, you got Doctor ? Yeah. Yeah, we had that last term. Yeah! Eh! Eh! Eh! Last month. Mm. We ain't in . Maria! If you just Me as well. you can just wait until you get in we'll you will definitely fall asleep . They've got him now! We've have him, we've had him ever since the beginning of term! Oh no! But you, you've got a you don't do biology class do you? You do chemistry. Well that's great fun! You do chemistry don't you? Mm. Instead. Where we going? I didn't notice Amanda. Oh! You recording then, who, our conversations ? No! What? Well Where's the actual tape? I ta er Close shave, that one! Hang on! Oh! A what? A close shave. My What? mum was just about to go out to get meat! Ooh ooh! And I go mum goes, I was just out the door! Oh God! I'm going, yeah,defini , thanks! I've just saved myself! She goes, why? She goes, did I put meat on that erm list? And she goes, yeah. Well I said, don't get it! Please! Whatever you do, do not get it! Don't get it! Just, don't buy She goes, why? meat! Cos I'm I goes vegetarian. well it's a vegetarian dish mum and I've actually turned vegetarian, she goes, ooh shit! I know! I go, yeah I know but just don't get it,right ! She goes alright I'll take it out for you. Oh Lorna, where is your cooking stuff? You'll need My mum's bringing it in. Paul's going away. Why does She does she calls it She always does that. feeble. That's like when you don't erm She can't do a job so you've got some training Research. well I can't. Well I don't know I'm not into food. Have you lost those? Yeah, I have to Why does everyone think I'm food! It's just, I was like that on Monday No, I was doing it, I was doing it in as well. cos you gotta do about na why people go to vegetarianism, you see. Is that good? . They think I'm a complete vegetarian now. Oh right! The only thing is though, if I decided to become vegetarian and I wouldn't be able to, see mum goes, you'll get what I'm meat! Eat the vegetables. But I've read that book. Yeah. You go and have your dinner. Can you get me nice one? Yeah, I will. And have one for yourself. Yeah. I will. Okay. And I read that book and erm Marie, erm said said that they've got new ones so that so that, excuse me,she'd been talking about I'd just made myself a pie I couldn't eat any of it! No? After reading that book. I couldn't eat anything Oh come on! at all! Pretty boring! Where we going? So so bring two vegetables, not one. Ah? You can't go out! Oh! Oi! Where you going? off. And then he was going on about how he was gonna get into it and then he,I told him what, it didn't come out or something. Yeah, well she reckoned it's on it lovely actually. Did she? Cos I wasn't there . Bastard! Ooh ah! Mm mm! Ooh! Ha! Are you still com smiles. you still coming on Saturday? Not if Carl's coming. No , it's just the way she's sitting! Oh my God! Oh it's fell out! I'm having it. Oh Michelle yo you, it'll be your decision to say whether Carl's coming cos it's you he wants to see. Well you actually laughed the other day you said Oh is he coming on Saturday? No, you came to my house! But it's you he wants to see. Well how can I, how can I put him out like that. You won't ! You, sitting near to you is she? Oh well she says cos if he's coming, she No. isn't, so erm we'll have to make him come won't we? Ah! Not really! I don't care if you don't want me! of course. I don't want Carl on your Are you sure? too . Oh God! Why won't he flipping talk to me! She's getting desperate here! Yeah ! You know I wouldn't cos you're going down the shops. Ah! She won't go down the shop with you. You can go on your own you know. Ah! We won't go down the village with her either! Ha! Ha! I might go down tomorrow actually. Go on your own. She eats this! She won't eat chicken. Fucking hell! Oh! Do you wanna bet? Yeah she can. Oh! on your birthday. No. Erm I'm saving it for Monday. is it stew for eighty five P? Why did you want one? No. Why not? No. No, how do you like your meat, organic? No Paul , I can't anyway because of my back. Oh that's alright then. Paul! I haven't! Fucking hell!would you? You'd have to get . Mm ! Dead what? She thought you was erm Jason Priestley. Urgh! Urgh! And who did , you? No, Lorna got them He's gross! got them mixed up. Absolute gross! That's Luke Perry. Luke Perry. Oh my Yeah. God! Luke Perry, for once I'm looking at my face. Well, here we are then. Calm down will you! Gotta go. Oh my God! , I don't know where she is! Come on! She's probably gone down. It won't be long oh! It'll be okay, honest. Don't worry. Oh it'll be okay. You never come! Come on please! I don't like going to the shops! Will you? I'm going to Oh! dinner. Well I'm sta , oh I, I wan I want to go to Why do you want a healthy dinner. want a healthy school dinner? Oh meat! Oh! Very healthy! Urgh! Have you tried their ? Yeah. Oh come on, please! I beg to you! Please! Looks like . Yeah I know. It probably is. Mm! Alright then, I'm going. Please! Get off! Move over! Oh my God! Come on! Well! Ow! You can take my hand. Good! Not meant to do that. Get off! Look tell me! Tell you what? What? Tell you what? You know this. Erm Well I look so white! I don't know what to say. Mm. Yeah. Do you Mm! I really like that. Don't be ! I don't care! Mm. Like now. Here's our one. Hello! Hello! Eh! Have you read that? He's not reading it. It's Christopher and erm you thought boy scouts weren't sexy. boy scouts. You know that one on playgroup? Oh yeah. He is sexy. He's alright. Not too bad. The one with long hair?? What a Yeah. tart! God! Constance has got a skirt like that and her boobs are just like hanging out! I swear! But not that I was looking or anything like that! No! He's probably glued to the set! I wasn't ! Well I'm gonna go out with Keanu Reeves again. Yeah I to , there was a film on telly with him last er night. Did you watch it? I don't know what it was. Is that sexy? I think, They were in a rock band something like that. Ow! Michelle! Yeah, you stick your hand up. Did you watch Helen knows. Guess what we were doing last night. Ah homework! That was it ! Yeah! Let's see your homework. Right Jenni. Go on please! I don't want it. You haven't got it. Do you want it? I want it. Alright then. That damn Paul's looking at our homework! Whoop! Ah, that's really funny! Erm could be nice about it. No! Why not indeed? Oh Paul! No I weren't, I wasn't being horrible or anything, if you don't Oh Paul! want to show me. What? Fine. Oh Lorna! Oh Paul! That was quite funny! Ben's going to Go and get off Ben ! You got What did you get? Box of chocolates ! So he can eat it himself! Mm. Well, share them around. I'll show you it later shall I? She hasn't , she hasn't even got them out of the bo , out the out of the bag yet. I don't blame her ! No, I mean I gave them to her and she didn't Yeah. like Yep. Yep. look at them! She just put them straight into her bag! Paul! Paul! Paul! I've eaten half of them! Have you? Give me one? No . She don't . Go on, I wanna strawberry one. Alright Paul. No! It's You might find that pretty hard actually. And Joe has come into school with a . Joe's a fat bitch! Paul's Can I have a, an orange one now?have one now? You! Yeah ! I've eaten it. I've eaten the lot. Can I have a caramel one then? We've eaten the lot! Don't lie! I am being serious Paul! We actually Don't lie! pigged the lot ! Get off ! If I have a look then, cos I don't Oh Christ ! Well she's had some. Get off and I'll give you Cos the wrappers are one! Ah, I'll give you an orange one later! Women! You can see I'm starving, you won't even give me one mingy blooming So am I! chocolate! I've gotta make sure that a , my dad's not gonna need it. I know ! You what? For erm they're coming in. Oh right. So I gotta make sure that he isn't going. I'll have to watch out with Robert and that lot because telling it to Mr , he's worried, is it a story and all that lot. I went, what? All in his dinner. Very interesting! I need to get a phone in . What? So it'll look beautiful in your room! Exactly! Where did that one go? No er, he's bringing the . Is that yours? No it's Joe's ! If it's Joe's I'm getting a piece of paper so I can write down the homework. Do you wanna sit in, no, do you wanna sit in there and then nobody can use it. I mustn't be caught doing it More like she'll just take it home! I know . I always know. No I've got most pieces already. Shh! Give it to me! Oh yeah! Have you got, you've got, have you got his pe pe pe pencils already marked? Any what? Have you got your pencil set marked? I was gonna say take out one pencil and then ! Come on! You come down the shops. I don't down. Right ,re right, Thing is, she's got her new pencil case. Oh! Michelle took one of mine! What happened to her hand? Has she burnt it? Oh that? Put, I was ho putting this in. You really piss me off! Oh! I was putting your bag away. Now now! Ah dear! Look! Oh! Kiss it better! Send it back to that , What do you think, think I am? Jenni, you said to me you hadn't got any money! I haven't. gonna sharpen my pencils. But he money, yet you says . I know. Mm! Not bad. Your card. Michelle you owe me thirty five P. What?! Christ! She just made up so you give her some money! That car she bought me ! No. Can you give some money cos I need to go and get the baby one pound . What can we give Je Jenni instead of the bumps? Charlotte, last week . She'll never give me it back. She never does! In the morning. Let's go for dinner . We have conversations over dinner in our house. Oh will you come to the village with me, please? No! I'll finish in a minute. I'll come if I get No! Oh you're a bitch! Michelle what are you gonna get me? No, not the village down there, the No! shops! I don't wanna go down the shop! Michelle! I'm not going! Shut up! I want to go! I want somebody to come Well go then. with me. Go on your own and shut up! I'll go by myself! Well We'll shut up! We'll see you later Michelle ! Anyway, I'm starved! My brother's cos I wanna go ! Go in that one, up over there. No your mean! She won't get interested. Come the shop, please? I don't want to. I won't tell you that . Alright. Bollocks! Did you know it was like a hundred and ten. Yeah ! Yeah. Michelle. You went down Oh we've lost it. the village with Elkie Yeah. on No, she wanted me to come on Tuesday! Yes but you went down, went down the village with me No one give me on Wednesday That's it. Now you want to get up there, well tough luck! I don't want to go down the village, I want to go down the shops. They're still arguing. Oh! The shop! Guess what's she done? Who? The bitch! Who? Who? I haven't done anything. Took my letter off me said she'll come back for it at dinner time because she wanted my bag, I mean like well I, I hadn't said that. I just hope she does. She'll be in the staff room. That Ben is looking for you. Just there. Right. Are you coming? Going on the next bus. You know, when you go, when you get Are you going for dinner? called. Yes. Anything else? Shaun's back from Benidorm. Very scruffy! Can you hear me? T S and M. T S then M. Erm ,T S and M ! Oh! Alright. You got thirty quid? Yeah. No? What just leave it here then, or have seen it? No , I've had, no I've go , I had to go over to shit! I've gotta make sure I've got everything now. This is where it's going to get tricky cos I've gotta remember what I've got. Chocolate got chocolate. That's cooking chocolate. How much is here? Five hundred Hundred and fifty grams. Hundred and fifty, hundred and fifty hundred and twenty five and leave so twenty five grams I've gotta take out. Yeah, that's alright. Right? That's that. Double cream, double cream. Three tablespoons of brandy. Oh! Ho! Brandy! Yeah, get on with it! Erm two egg whi , eggs. A few Egg. Oh! Oh they've gave me three! In case one broke I suppose. No, one No. for that. Pizza. Does that have one? Nope! Maybe not. One egg. Yes. Oh yes. Three eggs. Grated chocolate. That comes out of that, that's why you still Yeah. got more. Well that's the smallest Right. one you can get anyway, that hundred and fifty. And erm tomatoes Tomato one small tomato, right, they've got me two small tomatoes. Yeah well , go on! Just get on with it! Onion. Just check that they've got onions in. Yeah. Cheese. We got two lots of cheese here. Oh this is great! No, what's that? Cheese. Oh not it's not. It didn't look like cheese. Urgh! Urgh! Urgh! Urgh! Baking powder. Like that. All I need was a blooming all I need was five point nought point five baking powder about a teaspoon Nought point five what? That's what I want to say ! It's nought point five . Did you mention , it don't say there. I think you've got everything. Just about. There's my red pe , I says that didn't say it on the list but I just wrote it on and need milk one red pepper ! Hide the brandy everybody! Mm? She said don't hide the brandy. Oh! Perhaps not. Don't, hide the brandy or someone Yes I know. will nick it! Come on then. Do you think we should put this somewhere else? No, just leave it. Oh we've got it straight after haven't we? Yeah. Better have one then. Oh never mind! We'll do that picture ! Straight after registration we're doing it? Well I'm not. I've got a, I've got I am. geography. Yeah, I know. You got geography today and maths . Geography's alright. Oh no! You're too small. You've had the . Feeding them twice they are, twice. That big ones. Not too small. What was that? You were going to run and er jump were you? I I stopped. You missed it! Didn't, ah but I touched that one. You didn't even touch it! I did! Alright. Look! I'm not . Come on! Hello Lorna. Yes, I haven't told you. I'm really close to you now. Hey? Why? I can work out by the height of where the hand was on my back that it was Lorna ! I'll hit you later. Not pretty, not difficult is it? Ooh! Yeah! Well, considering down Down there is the back. But,down the back. But I thought it was anyway. Yeah! No , Nova! Does she know your coming tonight? Yeah, she invited me. She invited One, two, three Ah! Poor you Helen! Cos I . Er er ah! Not gonna go . Very loyal! You leave me just because I'm eating an egg sandwich! No, but I'm gonna be the one who won't eat that. Is there one for me? Shall I tell you something? O only a mean! Er only! I'll tell you something even worse than No, because I thought . What's the, what's the ? Don't blame you! Thanks! Where's gone? Pardon? She's erm Where's ? She had to go food. Got the wrong thing then?. Making it next week. That's right. Oh!. It's massive! When's the ? Erm Mm. Going to shops? Mm. I like your hair like that Caroline. I've been doing, it doesn't curl back. Try hair spray. . Hair spray. Not mine. Everyone's at business studies. Ever so boring! I'm not going wac Ah oh! You won't have put it out like that. Yeah , I know. Just had a sharp pain go right down the bottom of my leg! Oh, don't worry about it! Urgh! Er er er! Geography all afternoon! Ah! Ooh! Don't slap me! What you got? What have you got afternoon? Fatty legs they are! Oh lucky you! What you got? I've got fatty legs! Cooking. Oh yeah. You got cooking? I've got cooking. We know what you're doing. What? I've got cooking! Nothing? No. Oh shit! Gotta make sure she's got the book what I had last week. Were you here last week. Yeah. I think so. Yeah, because you tried to beat me up behind Mrs ! Oh yeah, I remember. It's hardly like in front of her is it? No. Yeah! It nearly were! She er, she was standing next to her. And, and she went thump! She didn't notice? Thump! Thump! Ah well, it's not surprising is it? She really hurt! She didn't comment on it. She can't control any of her lessons. No, she does when . I'm going I'm going ! I would have thought you'd be making pie today. Yeah, I was thinking about that but it's gotta be vegetarian and haven't got the meat. It doesn't make it You know all that meat fat and stuff in a meat pie! Oh! Hey! That'll make a nice furry dying steak then wouldn't it? Oh! Nice and furry ! And don't forget to keep the eyes in! Make a good What ? no, you've gotta toast the eyes. Toast them? Oh yeah! I forgot about those. Or grill them. Or grill them, yeah. Fry them. Erm make sure they're still the right Put them on top of my pizza don't you think? Yeah. And, stick the cocktail sticks out! The ears! What am I going to do about the ears? Cut them off and then stick them back on as soon as they're cooked. Grate them up as like er, topping. Yeah. Grate the ears up like a I'll chop it off the rest Get off! of it. Pardon me! Ah! Got a bit close to him as well as. Erm, what else was I going to make? Snake pie. But I couldn't But I couldn't find any but I couldn't find any erm snakes, so What's that? Nothing. Button. Is it? Tell me. No, it's just something. It's a walkman. Yeah, it's part of a Walkman. It's so she can hear er, it's about erm teachers knowing but we're spying. What you mean you just Cos you know you have Yeah, she's right. earphones on Yeah. then in Oh what's it for? so if you swi , you read It's only my Walkman but you see she nicked my Walkman and left this and th i er I'm keeping clipped on here so I know where it is, cos if it's in my bag I'll lose it. That rubbish! It's part of mu , it's part of my mum's Walkman so I like that part. Yeah, that's probably why you nicked off with it, cos it, it was clipped on to my Walk , er the Walkman when I came to your house. I know, and I I, I asked you if I could borrow it and you went, er and th you didn't Yeah, but you shouldn't have taken it off. Well! Don't worry about it though do we? No. You don't. Oh God! But really I don't like that cos it's funny ends. Well leave it. The way it's got grated ends. Eh! That's grated chocolate. I won't need just all of it, so Oh! No don't say you're gonna we I wonder if I can eat it. I was you go and have your teeth out here. She's gonna eat, but she's gonna eat cooking chocolate without it being cooked. Then cook it later, then eat it when it's Yeah. cooked. Because otherwise it's gross! Urgh! You'll be sick! Oh I think it's revolting! Yeah. I thought it'd have something eat it. Your joking! Well erm hello! You're back? You took your time! Yeah! You took your time! You see everything and everyone! Everyone! Urgh! E e e everything! No, escallops. I had escallop on . I wouldn't let you have one don't you? Oh I, Is Michelle here? Do you know I hate this cooking! Oh! Right. I've finished . You re you don't say Michelle! Oh don't! Thanks. Right, can you show me it? Hi! No. Hi! Alright then show me yours! Have a look! Press the button . I've got you. Is it on? Sorry that's er, only place I could grab you! Have you seen Michelle drinking Babycham? Babycham! Who's this? Babycham ! After this . Got one bottle of Babycham. One bottle! It's gorgeous! I love Babycham! She got pissed on one bottle! that's why I like Babycham. Oh she won't , she's gonna tell you she had loads of drinks How many? before. Oh! About seven! Pissed on Cokes! No! Yeah. Yeah. What were you pissed on then? I've asked him anyway what was Yeah, dunnit. the special . No, right! Mrs said said that Yeah? Said that? Go on! Carry on! Do you actually want to go? I was Lorna. only going on the bus though. Oh the toilets. Everybody's coming out again apart from er bumps she can't have the bumps. Move around Lorna! What do you think? Bloody hell Oh! cos she got pissed on Babycham! Oi! What's our maths ? Ah! You shit! Michelle! What happened? Are you ? Ah ! Hello! What is it? Oh oh oh oh! Kathleen? Kathleen what is it? That's what you get from the microphone. It's something off, it's just the attachment that goes from ma , my mum's Walkman and she nicked off with it when it was at when we were at her house and if I lo , if I keep it anywhere else I'll lose it so I've clipped it on to there so I know where it is. Hello! I'm Michelle. How are you! Hello! It's Michelle! Look! Just That was all it flaming Paul! was! That was all it really was. Ah well it's died now . Go on! Make the things come on. I didn't mean to be an idiot! What you got? I think you came off worse there! I hate that! Give us that , eh, give us that book it's his! Recording . No! Can you just record it? Fuck Why? off! Cos I wanna say, actually Behind. John it's me here. Later. You've gotta be joking! Give me loads of paper. I don't know what you're staring at! I'll finish this book and Who's staring at? see what I want. Eh? Good! Yes. Sit next to her. Don't worry about me! No! No, you just No! can't ask her for them. I'm sorry. Jenni , have you had any chocolates yet? I've already had them. No I'm alright. Give him the boot! Eh? Fatty! No! They're on Fat! top of the board Ah! on the They're on top of Jenni's. Oh God! They've Oh I'll take it back again. We'll have them back! Jenni's. Paul, she's giving you i , your orders about what you said. Get off my hair! I think we ought to get on top of Jenni. Yeah? No thanks! Er you're obviously dressed up as a a I said you! You! She's talking Who me? about you. Me? Yes. She said you! I said you ! Right! Fine ! Go on then, do you wanna sit on my knee then! No ! Em! Women! Do you wanna sit on his knee? Yes! He wants to Go on. sit on your knee ! No, you want to sit on his but you don't worry about that. I wondered why you were sitting there. Oh! Fuck me! Guess what everybody! What? It's Jenni's birthday! It's Jenni's birthday! Yeah. Go on, you shout it . Why? Seconds , go on do it again. It's Jenni's birthday today! How thrilling! And Emma's. Ah! The others get the bumps. Sing happy birthday! Nobody's even took any notice of it. Happy birthday to you happy birthday to you happy birthday dear Jenni Happy birthday to you! We got then enough Jenni. That's right ! Wicked to her aren't we? Isn't that fair? I'm not going to get ! give her the bumps ! The burmps ! Yeah! Give her the burmps ! No. Give her the burmps . Come Yeah! on everyone. No, oh oh oh oh oh! . Go on Ah! hold What was Angela cooking? She was going to make . Oh. Hello. Hiya! Where Lorna was cooking pizza and this chocolate and brandy mousse or something. I thought it might be good actually. Well Pete was telling me that. All I remembered is, they got, it's chocolate and it's got brandy in it, cos she was gonna put, I think it says three teaspoons What would ? Oh I didn't know that. Yeah. What's she doing? I don't know. Ha! She was gonna and she kept saying about Was it chocolate mousse Sorry? then was it? She came, just gonna tell you that she's gonna put erm more brandy in than what it should have in. I bet you , I bet she does. We , you know about Lorna. Take her three years . We got carried away. Er, she is here somewhere. She is. That . Yeah, but she dumped you. Right. Pardon? Because we can cook oven chips. That's a bit stupid! And that's actually Yeah? I know. It's stupid. And kind of chips. Yeah. No, I mean, oven chips you can just put them on the tray and bung them in the oven. I know they could, but it's still . Yeah. Because it says put them in individual glasses but er er Let's have a look. we didn't have them glasses then in the Ooh very nice! It would have been, it would have been lovely if it it looks, a bit silly in that bowl. wrong Caroline in that dish. Yeah. Yeah. If you'd have done it something else that would have looked really nice! I know, but my mum said But that looks nice and Yeah! In fact , I've forgotten the eggs in, but I broke them. Supposed to have eggs in but I forgot them, but you don't cook it. It's only an egg white Ah! you don't And er, yes, but my mum don't like eggs in it where you don't cook it so I, so I left them out. Fair enough. It tastes nice. So you deliberately did it? No. Did it on I bet it's because A mistake? you couldn't be bothered to take the egg yolk out of the egg white? Yeah! How did you guess? I knew it! You can't fool me Lorna! I know. Did you put shouldn't be in it. it would have been anyway. Do you Yes it help? I can make it, egg white mixed with egg yolk that goes nice. Yeah. Erm You don't really . Just help me. Oh right. Cos I'm behind. Can you pat those back a bit. Angela, what's yours like? I'm not making it. Kathleen? Are you still depressed? Oh, can I have a look? Kathleen? No. Cos it's in my bag and yo You still depressed? No. I don't fancy that. I've, I've piled one on top of the other and I've just ta , like the last two What? What have you made? Vegetable casserole. . How; s it taste? It's o very nice! Who wants ? I asked Nicola and she couldn't remember so There you are. There's a bit. What is this? It's just biscuits. It tastes like brandy snaps. Yeah I know. It's got ginger biscuits in but I forgot to put the ginger in them. Well it tastes quite snappy anyway. Yeah. Well I'll just put that down. It tastes a bit of erm Do you want me to put these in here Lorna? Mm? Do you want me to put your erm dishes in here? Sort it out first. I've gotta go I've gotta go straight from here to babysitting. Oh yeah, you've what are you gonna do with this? I'll carry it. Just keep it in there. And if they find out that I've had cookery, I'm dead! ! Wait for me to clear the sink up or I'll get I will. killed! Listen! Yeah! Lorna, I've stacked your I've placed your pizza on top of the erm what do you call it? Ah! What? I placed it on top of the bowl. Oh you didn't. You know, ee ah!! No I haven't. I was go , thinking about doing it the other way to see what you'd say, but then I thought, no! I would kill you! I'll tell you what I said Yeah? shall I tell you what, we have to do with the baking table which I'll tell you about after. I don't think I'd be in very good you know, in your good books if I did that? I'm gonna see if they've saved me any. I've hidden the brandy underneath. Have you? Why? Urgh! Your recipe's all sticky! Urgh! Everywhere's all sticky! All where? All over here. Where's your tea towel? Where's ? She's down there. What about a cherry treat? after. Put it the right way up then Kathleen? What? The right way. What do you mean? I was looking to see which way was the cleanest actually. Oh! What is it? Doesn't matter, they both look about the same so That is er clean, except I've wiped my hands on it. It wouldn't be very clean then would it? You don't worry about it. What was Amanda planning on doing? Nothing. She said to me, she said, my mum and, my dad's just lost his so Lorna what do you know reckoned, you gonna get drunk? Yeah. She said oh, even though I don't even like brandy. She'll drink it. Oh ah. Right erm, yeah mm pissed out my brains!16 Fine. And she reckons that er we haven't got anything con considering. They went over all, while they were doing this work and he gave us a sheet last week, we were doing all the questions this week and he went over all the questions with us! So I mean, he always does and then we just have to write it up. I'm going to eat that when I do Careful! babysitting. I like how the peppers have gone into it. Yeah, looks nice! Cos that, cos that fresh cheese on top cos I burnt it nearly. And then just cook the cheese and grill it. Well, looks alright. It looks a lot nice. Oh it is. There's cheese and there's Yeah I know. tomatoes and erm mushrooms. Come on then. Where you putting it? Out over here. I've eaten a bit in middle. Fine. Well just get on with it! Oh thank you Lorna! What's that? Oh! What's that? What? Is that here? Yes I know. It's very nice! What you made it? With a bit of help. Come on. You made it all really. No I didn't. I di , I told you. Made what? Didn't make it. I didn't do any of it. Who did them up? what? Well, my sister's textiles work. ! Ooh ooh, ooh ooh ! Ooh ooh ooh ooh ! I don't think I could, I'd go up that erm I did alright and I wouldn't say I've done well. They'd look better with the egg white in Forget them there. cos the egg white would have fluffed it up and it'd more It have fluffed it up a bit. like a mousse. Yeah, it's not a mousse at all. Chautier Didn't look like that in the exam. It's a French dish. Yeah, we just had it's what she's eaten cos I haven't had not time to get it done! Well it's going to be eaten whatever way it's gonna be cooked. Oh yeah. No Erm doubt of that. Just don't We're all just walking and everything and get into school tomorrow. Hi Kathleen! I have my there for Kathleen. Mm mm, mm mm! And I might have a little bit. I think it's going to get busy. I've bloody well just drinking it! I di I did erm three tablespoons in cos it's flaky pastry. Are you sure? Not teaspoons? And I've got , no, no tablespoons. I've got Ooh wo! I didn't look at, er, for that size Pie. thing? Yeah. And I put, put four! I'm not going there, come on . I put four, then put Don't touch this one. another one in again. Ooh yeah! There were five tablespoons in there! Two really big and I drunk one as well! I said be the whole lot of it! No , I've still got that much out a bottle. But that and chocolate is the only thing that's in there! I mean it's Yeah. because you put five tablespoons it'll probably come up to that height! And then I put three in with brandy. Yeah. Right. No it's No it's not, it's Emma? Yeah. Emma. She wants to know your name. Yeah. But they were nice. Oh they'll do well. They were lovely! That's enough pizza for my tea. You should work in a bakery . No, but she said that you you'd you know. Don't they like come on. Kathleen? Do you want some free drinks? Oh well Cos I'm getting cokes. Right, shove this one in the bag. And this one I'm wearing. Well wi , when do think he'll phone up? I don't know. If at all! You know on Saturday, er it was when I was thinking how about a, you know, cos we were thinking of going shopping in the afternoon Ah? cos if John's taking, taking you he'll probably give you a lift back or something if you you're there. But see Mm mm. if erm you know, if we go a bit later, say like about seven o'clock or something to the cinema. Depending on when the showings are. What do you think? Well you could go early but But th then you see I'm babysitting. Oh yeah. Ooh! You're babysitting about three aren't you? I dunno. Well if you are then we won't ma , you won't make it to it at all because I don't I will ask her if I'm babysitting as well on Saturday. Say that you'd like to know. Nothing. Do you want one? Ooh yeah. What is it? Ooh nice! Yeah. I'm going home now. I've gotta use the, otherwise you won't forget swimming. The bell's gonna go in a minute. No it's not. It's got about five minutes actually. So, I need the loo. So do I cos I'm on. Well Did you hear my teacher say about the book? Yeah. If I can make the and he's . And I had to say that they'll do it at Brownies . So? And the pack ran down the sides. Don't worry about it. And I . Oh it's you I'm talking then is it? Mm, no. What are they gonna do when it's your turn be in those exams next year? Yes. Oh God! Die! Yeah. Blackmail somebody else to do it for you. It's, oh God! Those ones or , aren't too bad though cos they're only marks. The other ones are Oh come on! Mm. Cos I just thought Lorna you know if Ca Carl wants to come Yeah. you'll definitely, you definitely get a lift back. Wouldn't you? I would anyway cos John said, oh I'll give you a lift home. Yeah I know, it doesn't mean to say he'll give you a lift back to your house! Oh God! I've got all the chocolate all over me! You didn't tell me that. Don't worry about it. Wipe your mouth. I've got the Sorry? I was thinking of wearing my white jeans, a shi and my black t-shirt and my red jacket. Well I'm wearing mine Or blue jeans white ta , shirt, black top underneath and my red jacket. Cos I want to wear my red jacket. Do you think I should or not? Erm over an eighteen, but not just cos of that. But not cos of that? Oh! But not just cos of that. Cos I'll have, I've gotta wear it anyway. Well that's partly why, cos if I don't wear them, mum'll kill me! Why? Cos they're,cos waste of money if you don't wear it. Just, I'm taking it on holiday with me. Well I'm gonna put some and jeans and then my Naff on top. or my red one. Well if you co if you come to my house before hand I'll do your make up and that for you. Eh? Oh! Too late. It's not half three. Oh well, that was just a waste of break. Are you coughing better? Yep. You going early today? Just leave this one in. Early? No. Here are! Are you early today? Gonna be a bit. Do you want your gloves and stuff? Don't really need them. Why? Cos it's not raining. I'll go and get them! Wait a minute. You get your scarf on. What do you want? Claire! What do you want? Just the gloves and the scarf. It's only Mum , the scarf ! Ow! Not your hat? No. You gone off it now? No. Just don't want it. Oh! Cheers then. Mind how you go. See you later. See you, Ta-ta. It's really hurting me. Again is it? Can I have a look at it? Ouch ! That flaming hurts! Ow! Oh! Oh! Oh! Oh! Ta-ta. Get your coat on and just stick a drop of that stuff in. I don't bloody ! It's in there! Blooming ears! These blooming ears they make more trouble than they're wor , erm, than they're worth! Is it this one in particular? No. It's been bleeding up again. Ow ! Ooh that stings! I know. Cos I can see it bleeding. Why are they doing that? Is it because she wears do you think? Shouldn't be. Cos you wear them don't you? Get your coat on! Right, we'll perhaps change them when you come home. Why? And put the thick ones in. No! These are better than the thick ones! Why are they? Yeah and the thick ones really hurt me! Perhaps The thick ones really, really hurt me! Yeah but look that ones, they're digging in aren't they? Loosen it a bit then. Are you playing about with them at school? No! Get fed up with this one! Well don't play about , don't play about with any of them! Cos your hands get er, dirty aren't they? Come on! Cos Christine will be waiting. Put your coat back on. What's the weather like Kathleen? Quite nice. Is it sunny? Yeah. And cold. Is it? Mm. Right. She's ha , she's been sneezing and got runny nose haven't you? Yeah. All this clobber you always have to take to school, I'm not kidding! Oh it's not hot! Oh! Oh be careful with it then. Put your bag in if it'll go in as well while you're at it. Yeah it will. Plenty Morning! of room. Morning Christine. How are you feeling? Yes,we do. What's this you're on about? Did you get your tapes in? Oh yeah! The students . Oh! Ah, like they did before? Like the si , like playschool did. Yeah. Playschool did one didn't they? Well we're doing it this one. Oh are you? Oh! Aha. With the whole community . Oh! Everybody! What was that for? Chris's idea that was. There was some in with me different now. They just, they just did it to raise some funds, I can't remember why they did it. Well Cos they were just twenty one last year. Oh were they? How long ago was that then? Four years. Four years ago, she must have been here. She's nearly eight this year. There are then! I can't remember it. Mind you, you never went to that playschool so Well no Right! See you tonight. Yeah. Good luck! Tarrah. Can you nip in the shops I wanna get something I can suck cos it do Alright. it doesn't stop me from I'll stop in the shops . Oh you, Mary! Will you get me one? I haven't got any money to get you anything. What do you want Mary? He said, cos you caught me, that she was going away this morning but I'm not really bothered, I'm not. No. I didn't I mean I know I've been married to him for thir twenty five year but didn't know her all that. Never had a lot to do with her. Well if he's not there you can't! Well that's just it, int it. So Erm I was going to ask for a couple of hours off and then he says, oh don't bother! Yeah. Er, my brother-in-law's not going. And in fact, one of my brother's isn't going anyway, you know, it's not Thanks. And they only go in and . Right! What have you got? Fruit gums, that's all they had. Weren't there any er What? throat pastilles or anything? No. Or Tunes or something? Mm. They have Tunes. Yeah but, they've only got them in that flavour, I don't like cherry. I, I already had . Well I think so many people have got colds That's right. now Yeah but she had them last night! Oh! Well I didn't see them. Oh well. There was the Saw the blackcurrant and the cherry next to each other and then mint and honey I sa behind them. I saw the cherry and the honey. But I don't like them. Yeah. The mint one behind honey, and the blackcurrant Oh I didn't was next to the cherry. Didn't see the blackcurrants. You really want honey and glycerine. Then Urgh! Ah! Yeah, because er, the glycerine soothes the the honey soothes the throat. They've gritted. That's grit on there. I makes a change. It wasn't gritted last night round here. Could have been done this morning. See it's nearly all finished. Put the fog lights on. I think we need them this morning. Just a bit. It's getting a bit thick up here. If it's thick here it'll it'll be really thick at East Leek. Mind you, this is getting . I know but it even when it's not foggy here it's foggy at East Leek. Yeah, that's right. Brian said they'd they closed the motorway. hasn't got fog lights on there. No. That's, oh. Thought they'd closed it between . War fog warning lights and, between twenty twenty four and twenty five. Yeah, they've definitely got fog warning lights. That's ridiculous that is! Yeah! What's wrong? Er , a village blacksmith has had his been told by the council to close down because he lives in a greenbelt area. And wisht! Traditionalist country and they're er Well I can't see why, what difference being a blacksmith in a greenbelt makes, it's sho it's not exactly . ! Oh God! Oh dear! Oh, I hope it lifts this fog today and we have a bit of sun. Ha! Which I don't think we are. I hope so. Mind you, yesterday morning was a lot clearer than this. So if you've got a violin lesson this morning seeing as Susan didn't have her flute lesson this week. Didn't she? No! We they never turned up on Wednesday! He said he was coming on Wednesday. I know! I know. Why Mr never came, because, he came, he started going to school, I heard this at recorders, he didn't, he didn't get up till late cos he didn't hear it, he he was driving to school and he started a little, little but he went home. He, he didn't feel well. Oh, he he didn't feel well. And so, he phoned when he got home and Mr was in and and then when Mr came out he told Miss to mind the class cos he didn't get up till late. Hey! What about Bunny being ill? I know. Blooming heart attack on Saturday night! No he didn't! He did! He did. He had a heart attack Saturday mo , what was it He's in hospital. Saturday morning at work, he's he's, hospital. Should be coming out today. Didn't din didn't the man that came to collect the pools last night tell you? He didn't even come! Oh! I'm sure he did cos he came to us. Unless he knocked on your front door and you didn't hear. Didn't even tell somebody at the door! Oh! Well he certainly came, cos he came to us. And er Oh well. Yeah, Bunny's got, had a heart attack. After bloody, he was at work on Saturday morning! And don't what he actually does though. Anyway Come on! Did you get any ? Pardon Did you get any pools done tonight because it was nine o'clock when I went to bed and . It was nine o'clock when he came to us. Er, because he was half an hour later than normal. Cos I er, I when I went to the door in our and Bunny and er, it wasn't it was an elder gentleman says, ah! Where's Bunny? He said he had heart attack on Saturday. I said, oh! That's why he wasn't in the pub then on Sunday. Did they say they were gonna have the review of erm Freddie on there? Cos they were talking about doing reviews and they mentioned Freddie. It only comes out today so how can they have a review straight away? Well they can because er they've, they've had a preview of it. Yeah, but they don't do it, they do it on, er Th the day it comes out but they, all the er No, it's normally after. the media men Yeah. get erm a preview of it so that i , er the day it comes out they can do a review on it. Okay? Yeah. Yeah. That's what they do. Who's going on Saturday then? Dunno. There's loads of us going. Well loads of us talked about going so we'll a just have to see. Well I wo wouldn't to watch it again. You what? I don't want to . Oh it's D registration. Where's dad at? I don't know. But some pantomime has been called off because Snow White I know. is pregnant. It's not quite as thick as it was the other day when it was just er constant, whereas this really went in patches. You went from the very thick to nothing and then . This fog's moving. Couldn't see the lights the other day. I know, when we were coming back from Lorna's I mean there there was like in patches. Yeah. Swirly. There's some muck on this road! All this! There is? It's this farmer and his tractor! You know when he leaves here go off and Ah well! Oh well! What time was your violin lesson this morning then? I don't know. You don't know? She never knows! Do you just go and check they're in? Oh dear ! I wanted to stay in bed this morning. We haven't seen the bus have we? No. It's probably behind us. There's no one standing there so it's getting caught up in that traffic jam at the bridge I would have thought they're all queuing to get on the bridge in the morning. Yeah. That bus ahead of this car if you get out and you go and turn right instead in the middle of the road. Oh the bus is coming The bus must have in. Yeah. They've had one bus over by the look of it with the Yeah. Ooh! What, Freddie? Yeah. In three D? It's not all in three D, there's only about twenty minutes of it. It said to gi get get three D, er red and green glasses. I wonder if they'll give us them, you know. They'll have to give us them won't they, when they I remember once watching a film in three D and getting the red and green, green glasses. The whole of the film was in three D. Ah no, this is Can't remember what we went to now. God that bus! Sorry! Going right over. Yeah. Pardon? Where's the sun? We won't see any. I'll be surprised if we get any at East Leek. That bus is overtaking us . Women drivers! Not while he's that'll be silly. Yeah! She's babysitting Wednesday, Thursday, Friday an Sat , er so then some Saturdays and Sundays. What, will it be just for a short period cos it wasn't nine o clock? No she went straight from school. It to ,i she's babysitting the these that go to college that have got college classes so she Oh right. goes straight from school. And do they feed her?? Don't know. Oh I know she had her cooking with her today, so she had a pizza and a, a chocolate mousse thing in, she'd been cooking Oh that's alright. with her. What, was that at school? Yeah. So she to she'd, she'd cooked it in, cooking yesterday so Oh well! We're nearly there girls, we're nearly there. Right. Oh! Urgh! You got a . Where are they going? She's got a ro Bye! Oh come on! Hold on. Can you hold that please? What you bloody doing here? Nothing! They want it today. No, what? I don't want to i well it didn't look like it's on. And yet after your expression, Probably not. ha, I think it will be. Even like This way. Er! Go and phone Shirley, let her know. She's not likely to though. Too late now, I just Yes it is. Come on let's walk round. Are you gonna buy a new one? Ha! Nope. Fuck it! I'll get another one next year. Ha ha! Ah! She hopes! She hopes! I hope! Yeah! Yeah, it'll be better next though cos erm Carl won't be wanting to sit in cos, er Carl won't have a portable coloured T V next year. Ooh! Anyway, I'm going to save up to, I was supposed to be saving up , those gates are locked. I know. Let's walk round this way then. I've gotta, I've gotta try begin to lose some . Oh and past that horrible stink! I'm supposed to be saving up till Why are they? Up till I don't know, cos somebody a hundred quid. hasn't opened them, that's why! Aye, I hadn't thought of that! Supposed to be saving up to a hundred quid! I can't, and I've gotta see Why have you gotta sa , oh for your French No. ? Yeah. But no, it's Yes, but Well but no! Yeah, cos I gotta save up because fifty pound of it'll go to my mum to ma , erm mum's birthday present Oh yeah. Fifty pound'll go to the fre exchange cos she's giving me a hundred. Walk round. Yeah? So I got a hundred and fifty pound to go there. And th erm, I've got one of them, that other fifty pound'll go on Carl's present. Oh right. Okay. We'll have to walk back round you know. I know Cos we but we I haven't done this year, I get a better present than I've ever got. Oh! Ha ha. So it'll probably be a black and white television You say that now, but what about when you haven't no And well, when I get there when you haven't got no money! Er I'll borrow this. I a , I really am gonna save up. But when I get my new job, I don't know. Right! It's John's , John's just saying I'm starting tomorrow and I'm so nervous! Oh what you do , where is it at? And what you doing? the bakers, I've gotta serve customers and things . I applied for a job and three people turned John just said me down cos they said they only wan , they wanted full-time and not, you know, not just sort of Saturday or part-time. I'm like er, er I said, you know, after school, they don't want just after school or Saturday cos I, cos it's full-time. I don't know if I'm working Sunday now. If I'm not working Sunday I shall see if you're off. Where's erm Ah! Lorna. She's Ah! got her little friend with her! Taking a shine to him. We'll see about that! He says but, a reliable with you, I'll, get off with me then. He's, yeah that's it ! Do you call her reliable ! Reliable ? And she's meant to be here. Me too. ! Where is she? A reliable fourteen year old girl. Nothing but Did you draw a little picture? No. Oh it's not you then. Ah ah ah ! They won't get anything until six months later anyway cos I didn't. Oh yeah! Just because just because you didn't, they're not! They won't. They maybe heard the rumours about you! Ooh yeah! See someone's opened the gates now. Eh? Right erm I so I'm babysitting Danielle all tonight when I get home. Someone who If you wanna car. No, she was really sick of it. Yeah. But one o'clock until two o'clock feeds. Are you coming, are we going shopping tomorrow or not? I don't know. Two o'clock feeds I was thinking about going later on, you know, to the cinema, see what Amanda says. Two o'clock feed and then Thought it was a three o'clock feed. Yeah. It's two to three. And then four Oh Lorna! Six o'clock in the morning After school? Yeah, I've gotta go after school Well how are you gonna really go home do it at two o'clock then? In the morning. Ah! Right. Run home, get changed wait, have a bath then go up to they'll pick me up to go babysitting over there. Well how do you plan to stay up till that early? And then That early! and then I've gotta go over there That was, that was stupid! for one in the morning gotta come back, feed Danielle Let's go across there. Don't go in the common room, I can't be arsed. And then erm I'm cold! gotta make four o'clock Yeah, that's right we'll go in this side. I've got to provide the the six o'clock feed. So you go again there? No, you're not yo When do you go to sleep? I'm not! She never does! I'm going, and then I'm going to bed and getting up at er, eight o'clock. Oh right! Ha! See! I can just that working. Yeah, for the time at night and today The time plan, the one I don't work for ! and I get paid Come about midnight put the time plan. No, I always get up an well, most of the time she sleeps to a time plan. Why does she have to be fed at that time? Co It's because I'm babysitting, while some of you people are in bed. And I'm staying round, and I wake up if I'm staying round if Danielle wakes and they'll bring her over, I'll you see and picking her up Sunday night. And that means Carl's gotta stay in all tomorrow How come? from school! So I'll keep Danielle. Oh! Does she have a car? No, in I mean she's got a Hi Lorna! Hi! Gotta stay the night. And he's staying tonight to keep Danielle. Until you get back? Until I get back at one ! But otherwise he's not allowed out? So he's not allowed out and John's coming to him at home. Oh, I thought he'd be with Amanda? Er, yeah, but he's coming round as well. With Amanda? No! Turn round. And so that means erm he come in he come in and Danielle was lying across my arm like that and he What today? No,yester Last night? last night, yeah. And he went John did? Lorna? Yeah? Sorry! What days do you baby-sit? Monday? No. Tuesday? No. Wednesday,Tues , Wednesday, Tuesday, Thursday,Friday and Saturday. and sometimes Saturday. And sometimes Sunday. Are you on the school bus tonight? Yes. The right one? Yeah. The right one ! Not working next week. Watch out! Here comes Amanda! Oh oh! Who is it? Well you'll forward to Sunday dinner . Bread please. Where's the mo li unlikely place they'll find us. Not in the toilets! Up there. No, go outside. Oh oh! I'm only joking! She's Yeah. here. She just gets on my nerves. I was thinking about wearing my red jacket on Saturday. Look! I'm filthy! I dropped all that What do you think about me wearing my red jacket on Saturday? Walk round. What, that one you wore with my, uniform dress you mean? Yeah. Maybe not actually. I like that. Urgh! That'll make you look older and I'm going to look like a bloody prat! Not if you come to my house, you'll be alright. Don't put too much make up on or else it'll look dead false! Ah ah! Yeah but I look dead false anyway! Ah ah ah! I've got your sister's Tunes where it goes, urgh! urgh! Oh thank you Susan. Can I have one of these? They're not that high. Oh, Lorna? Eh? Lorna? Yeah? Erm what you have to do is you have to get your sister to do it for you. Sarah, can I have your mask? Thank you! A mask? Yeah ! No, no Okay. it's okay I'm just borrowing your body to get into the cinema and then you can disappear! Yeah! I'm a spirit! Chum! Urgh! Hurry up! There's something wrong with my sister you know. Why? Because you know she had Danielle and was in a pretty bad mood for two weeks now Yeah? she's still bleeding. She's still what? Bleeding. Oh er! I wouldn't. Was sh , was it early or late? It was late. By two Yeah, but it was,i i was sitting differently though wasn't it? Yeah. So But the doctor says that it should be just a normal period after you've had it, but it'll be faster flow. Has she been bleeding for a two week period? Yeah! Yeah! I don't think, it's not Mm, she should go and see a doctor. very fast now is it? I don't know. Well and she left her knickers in the bloody sink and bloody disgusting! Got people calling round, and th I walked in the bathroom and went mm mm urgh! And walked back out again ! Urgh! Urgh! Urgh! I go, mum! Tell Sarah to move her bloody knickers! Bloody being the operative word! Yeah ! And she goes,Sarah ! Er, I think it's a bit cold actually. She goes,Sarah ! Well, just a bit of a like oh, has the bell gone? Oh oh oh! And then Sarah comes Don't know. Mr 's there! Get a move on! Oh oh! Oh! Oh Woops! shit! And then Sarah comes, she's running in what? Can you move them bloody knickers! Oh mum! I have got Danielle in my arms! So mum and Sarah's got, I chucked it off . Helen! Helen! Helen! Has bell gone? I dunno.? Any, oh! If she can't hear it Well any if you shout Helen,I was shouting Helen! Helen! Oh! ! Oh! You can't, you can't get round there. And there was you lot shouting, Helen! Helen! Has it gone? No. It hasn't . Well we walked back down and everybody was in the erm class. Class. There were er, Mr and we sort of walked in and we thought like they were we're thinking, oh fu shit! Yoo hoo! Yoo hoo! Anybody down there! I dunno. I daren't look! Do you want to go Yo we've got that English thing today haven't we? Yep! Oh shit! Oh no! I haven't bought my book! Oh Helen! Oh shock horror! What is? I ca like that. I can't side. Yeah, I suppose in a bit. In a way. So that means we'll see the knife go actually into her stomach! Urgh! Urgh! Urgh! They say that erm, this one's the best one they've ever done! Yeah. Well they save the best for the le la for last but I don't think so. The first one was best. We'll soon see when we've seen it won't we? Then we'll have nightmares! Go at midnight! Hey! Go at midnight ! That won't be nightmares, it'll be morning- mares! Mares! Go home, hi mum! Ha ah! Ha ah da! And go to sleep Ah ! Ah ! Ah ! What now? I think that was quite interesting having it on at midnight exactly. Yeah! Ooh! Ooh aargh! You went? No I didn't er It makes you jump, I can tell you that! How do you know? No, not this one. The Freddies' Oh! all the Freddies'. I know! I've seen it They make you jump, and jump out! I've seen this . I've seen all the way up. Alright. They jump out at you! Oh, I told you about watching about erm Freddie four in the early morni , hours of the morning,didn't I ? And that bloody Yeah, and they're walking around. Was I we , where are the crisps? Oh! Somewhere in there, oh right. Chuck over a cushion. Ow! Splat! What was that ! What was that? Yeah! Help! I'd laugh if someone was dressed up as Freddie you know! And they come from behind the screen! Er er er er er er er! Ah ! I'd just ru run out the cinema twice as fast as I went in ! We didn't watch it at the cinema. We were watching this at home. That so sounds like an, an owl. Ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh! La la la la la la! No. No! It sounds like the trumps! Sounds more like a bloody dog! Oh don't try Lorna! I used to do that . One person trying to make owls is enough! Ooh! Oh! Cold! Er! It was Jenny's birthday the other da , yeah I told you didn't I? Oh! Mm mm. Mm mm. I can't do it anymore. Good! I used to be able to do it, I forgot how do my fingers go now. Oh don't try! I'm cold, are you? Are you cold? No. Ha. I am! Not any more! Freezing! You know when I first I don't wanna make your got out which do you think, that shoe there, or that shoe? I dunno. It depends whether you want people to see the laces or not. Yeah, but what do you think? But I wouldn't walk around with them like that! Why? Cos they look odd ! I've been walking round with them like this all day. Oh well, it just shows how much I, notice I take doesn't it? Oh yeah ! What do you not really ? No? Shit! Oh! It's my nose! Sean's so angry he's gonna kill me now! I've gotta try hand it on for over a year then I went to live again. Yeah. Really? Move away quick ! That's the only problem you get out of that. Let's face it! Yeah, I suppose. Ah,bu I'd take you with me. Well thank you. Of course. I'd probably er What about John? He could bloody stay for all I care! No, he he could take us somewhere. Yeah! And leave us. No, we'll nick off in his car. Leave the our old house. And we'll have the car. And you know how to drive don't you? Aha. Ooh yeah! You said you drove your mum's car before. Yeah, but I don't remember doing that do I? Yeah well you still drive! I was only little! I could have been Well never mind I don't know how I managed to turn the corner without bumping into something! I don't how blooming I don't even know how the blooming gears work! You're not the only one ! I didn't change them Oh yeah. I just went up. I think that's probably why I've you know, bothered. Oh. If I get Carl, I think Carl would do cos he knows how to drive a car. Oh I don't want to end up dead you know. No, he does, he can drive dead good! Ha ah! He's had lessons since he was six. Oh! From John? My dad's been teaching him? Oh. I'm going I told you they said Janice would give me lessons didn't I? Didn't I Have you tell you? you've seen Carl drive! Yes I know. That's why ! Hi! Hi! Hi! Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Right, yeah , go on. I'm a, I'm not Get Ah! Bad foot. What you doing? Lorna! It's our ! if I'm any relation today I am ! Oh my God ! Oh well it's sort of to both of you, but only kidding! Oh! In fact, I'm going to Power! Ow! Just kidding! Ah! Oh no! My little foot! I haven't the foggiest idea, but it's bloody cold! Ow! Ow! Has bell gone? Not today. No. That's alright. Ow! Ooh! Get upstairs quick! No, it's alright Nova. Take a rain cheque on that. I got one shoe o They So you're doing trade at the moment in er agricultural economics I think Bob has asked you to prepare some data on er wheat and cotton trade. Before we come on to to look at that, can somebody tell me what's happened to world trade say in the last century, what are the major trends in world trade? Right O K yeah, that's the first thing to note, yeah world trade has increased dramatically any other features?what's happened to the composition of world trade? Manufacturers has had an increase trade Right O K yeah that's the other major erm feature is that agriculture's share of world trade has declined and manufacturing er share of world trade has increased and I've got some er some numbers here erm so it says before the first world war agriculture's share of world trade was over fifty percent, today it is less than fourteen percent okay, so agriculture's share in world trade is declining and has been declining er essentially over the the last sort of seventy years or so. Right, okay any other features about world trade, it's been growing in volume, er, composition has changed,anything else how about the prices of agricultural goods?are there any characteristics? as quickly as the manufacture of goods Right okay yeah the produ there in actual fact they're, they're relati , yep, you, you're correct in that they they may well have risen, right, over that period erm but relative to manufacturing prices they have fallen erm let's just see if there might be some data in there er erm I thought I had some. I thought I had some information here on prices I can't seem to find it no no, can't find it, never,never mind I've got some figures here that looks at erm the growth in in trade,er it's quoting, it says between nineteen eighty and nineteen eighty nine the volume of agricultural trade grew by twenty six percent alright,however that was that represented one third of the growth in manufacturers so agricultural trade is rising but it's rising much less rapidly than manufacturers here are the prices, at the same time, so between nineteen eighty and nineteen eighty nine er food export prices fell the prices actually fell from eleven percent,t , by eleven percent whereas the unit value of manufactured exports, so essentially the prices of manufactured exports rose on average by twenty percent okay so over the, over that period agricultural prices were actually falling in real terms but if we widen erm s the window that we're looking at, erm,agricultural prices probably haven't fallen er say over the post war period or if we er go back to the beginning of the century, agricultural prices probably haven't fallen erm but relative to manufacturing they certainly have okay. So what can account for er this changing composition of trade? Why, for example are as manufactured trade increasing in importance?. Can this be just because er incomes have risen ? tt right, yeah, incomes have risen throughout the world and that impacts both on the demand for agricultural products and also the demand for manufactured products but what do we know about demand elasticities for those two products, income elasticities what's the income elasticity of manufactured goods? Greater than one less than one. Yeah, that's right income, income elastic manufactured goods,as a result manufactured erm sectors will be growth sectors simply bec , because as income per capita rises, people spend proportionately more of their increased income on manufactured goods and as a result we witness a marked increase in trade in manufactures. We would only need to witness a marked increase in trade and there will certainly be an increase in demand why do you think trade has increased?and trade isn't a necessary condition it's just that trade has tended to grow at the same time as erm as demand is growing. Why might trade be growing? Because of transport Okay, yeah better transport technology a hundred and fifty years ago it was impossible t erm, to transport meat across the Atlantic it's er, very straightforward now so the advent of different types of, er, transport technology and improved transport technology erm, has made tr , facilitated trade okay. Any other reasons? The increase in trade in manufactured goods has taken a particular form of trade. There was intra industry trade, yeah good so what is intra industry trade? Yep, its as, yeah, the simultaneous import and export of a similar good, or the good of as , of the same industry. Right so we could think of erm, cars for example erm, you know we both export cars and import cars. okay Why do you think that intra industry trade has risen, say over the last fifty years? Then why aren't we self sufficient in car production? People want more choice unclear Right That's right. As people get wealthier right, one of the, they not only demand more goods, but they demand a wider variety of what is essentially or what can be classified as the same good. clearly a Skoda is markly different from a Jaguar right, but as far as, er, classifying trade goes, they'll both go under automobiles right okay. One of the main reasons why intra industry trade has risen, right, is not only that consumers want to purchase different varieties and different qualities of the same good erm that it , it's very easy to differentiate the product in manufactured goods right. We've only got to put a go faster stripe on a Skoda and chan , change the wheels and we've got a different product we've got a diff , yes, we've got a fast skip as opposed to a slow one,alright. So because we can differentiate manufactured products very easily, and because consumers want differentiated products, alright get increase in demand for manufactured goods right. The reason why trade has risen, one reason is because, erm, transport costs have declined in real terms and secondly w , why can you think of anything else that may have increased trade in manufac manufactured goods? Better technology in production. mm Okay, so what, what are you er, hitting on about there Adrian? Better use of machinery and tractor and erm farmers are at risk of I know that manufacturers who could have to progress these capital to get better returns . That's right, I mean we, we've got decreasing erm, oh sorry, increasing returns to stay off decreasing costs. Right now with manufacturing er in manufacturing, there are economies of scale, huge economies of scale this is why we find look at cars again that Toyota plant in Derby produces all the Toyota Corollas or whatever for the whole world, it's not just for the U K market alright. So cars produced in Derby are exported back to Japan , right cos all the , all the er production of that one car, is focused in one plant, why is that the case? It's because there are economies of scale, alright, now if there are gains to be had from specialisation right, and consumers want specialised products and the best thing to do is to, erm, focus production in a single location right, for lots of different variants of this product right. So we see massive car plants right. Why are they so large, because their economies of scale to be reaped right companies are trying to erm, to accrue those economies of scale right, cos if they don't, they'll go out of business, because their competitors alright will produce, erm, a superior or a lower price product okay. So that's been very important, economies of scale are very important in the erm, the growth of manufacturing trade, which is essentially an increase in intra ,in intra industry trade, as, as opposed to inter industry trade which is erm the simultaneous import and export of er products from different industries like produce capital goods, so cars and in return you will import erm food products but the majority of the increase in world trade has come from this intra industry variety. Can I just turn over let's look at th the other side of that coin, right, because it has all the explanations er as to why agriculture, agricultural trade has declined in relative terms right. Let's just think about well first of all the incoming elasticity argument right, manufactures greater than one agriculture less than one right, that's one reason why agriculture is a declining sector right, it's also a declining sector in world trade for the same reason that it has got a low income elasticity whereas manufacturing had a high income elasticity now, consumers like variety in food just as much as they like variety in manufactured goods alright, but what's the problem with agricultural goods?they're essentially homogenous alright wheat is wheat sugar is sugar. Now although we can differentiate the products er agricultural products, we can only do that at the very final stage in processing,by and large, where there's much less scope after product differentiation right, at the er the raw material erm level, which is where most agricultural trade continues er, most trade in agricultural products is in the raw commodity, not the refined commodity the refining, there might be the processing and the manufacturing, tend to occur in the country of consumption and not in the country of production a number of complicated, erm political reasons erm alright, but the but because there isn't the scope for product differentiation alright, we haven't witnessed an increase in intra industry trade in agricultural goods whereas we have done for manufactured goods because there is scope for intra industry trade er yeah scope for product differentiation. Okay what about economies of scale? Are there economies of scale in agriculture? Are they in to the same extent, or lesser extent than manufacturing? experience the optimistic small That's right, I mean why di why have we got the structure of agriculture as we have, you know why why do we still have an atomistical industry right, it's not just a, a freak of nature, there are economic laws, erm,and opinion that s , that structure the industry and it's because you just don't get economies of scale staying in agriculture. If you did get economies of scale then we wouldn't see small, erm,small independent producers right we, we'd see a, an increase in the concentration of the industry, like we have witnessed in virtually every other sector Not like the population grows faster than the food so mhm the population would demand more manufactures because food can't keep up Say that again,Marthus Marthus said that food production cannot keep up with the population increase Right mhm And so the population increase would they wouldn't be able to. That's right, that's what you said in in you saying that populations were going, growing geometrically agricultural production was going arithmetically, as a result a population crash is inevitable, alright, but we know that isn't true right, because what, when Marthus was writing, erm, Marthus was writing just before in the agricultural revolution in the U K so agricultural technology hadn't improved very much in sort of five hundred years right, but in the next hundred years agricultural production, erm, or productivity grows far faster than erm,than population. Marthus didn't actually foresee this erm, this leap in from technology and as a result he was basing his predictions on past trends so if past trends had continued would have been, he w , he would been correct but because erm, agriculturalists started to erm, use technology and at that time it was a very sort of low technology, but nevertheless it would, would've production dramatically you know, you don't think of drainage as being particularly high tech but it can increase the, the yield on a crop sort of four or five times and so si simple drainage systems would be introduced erm ro rotations were being introduced, again rotations you think of being fairly straightforward but erm prior to the agricultural revolution rotations weren't used rotations can improve the fertility of the soil and er yields as well right okay, so agriculture produces a homogenous product, by and large and er as there isn't the scope, the product differentiation, and there isn't the scope for specialisation because we'd need a farm the size of Europe to feed the world with,w with wheat. Now clearly it makes no sense you might be up to producing the Toyota Corollas in a three hundred acre plant, erm, near Derby right but we can't employ the same techniques in production er when we're making agricultural why not well essentially we're using land, we're using land intensively alright and there comes a point when, erm you reach dis-economies of scale and start er accruing dis-economies of scale in agricultural production and that scale of plant is very, very small but after about well it depends what type of production er what type of product you're making but, you know, there aren't many farms over five thousand hectares, now five thousand hectares is a huge farm, it's massive alright but it still only produces a fraction of, say U K output cos there's several million hectares of erm but the reason why you don't see these very large farms is that you just don't reap the economies of scale alright, because essentially we need land erm and you're farm gets so big that it would take you half the day to drive your combine harvester over to the, the other side of th your farm just to erm, to harvest the, the wheat right. Hasn't there been a move into much larger farms now? Oh yes, there ha , I mean there are economies of scale in agriculture, it's just that they're, the scope of them er, is less than er the scope in manufacturing so I mean, farms used to be a lot smaller and throughout this century, this last century we've witnessed an increase in farm size alright, but the I think the optimal, the optimal farm size is erm, I think it's about three hundred hectares okay, er erm, with three hundred hectares you'll produce a, a pretty squit proportion of erm total output but farms used to be sort of one, two, three, ten hectares in size as we've gone through the farms have amalgamated and increased in size and that's primarily due to economies of scale , but there are a great deal of economies to be reached, once you've got a combine harvester, once you've got big machinery alright. You can't really improve your productivity much beyond that. So if you just look at this the arguments for er manufactured, or the increase in manufacturing er trade alright are exactly the opposite to erm, that explain the decrease in erm, the relative decrease in agricultural trade okay. Any other one other factor that might be important in, er explaining this relative change composition of trade between agriculture and manufacturing?something that's in the news at the moment mm yes get us at a much more er er effective role in reducing tariffs on manufactured goods than it has on agricultural goods and it's only in this last round of G A T T talks, the Uruguay round that agriculture has been brought into the frame alright. Prior to erm Uruguay round negotiations, agriculture was always excluded from the negotiations right, whereas manufactured goods have been in there from the start, and as a result we've seen a reduction in tariffs right, on manufactured goods that's not to say that erm,protectionism on manufactured goods has fallen, it has in certain cases but not in all cases. What's happened is that policy makers 've shifted the emphasis instead of protecting tariffs they're protected using long long tariff barriers right which are a lot more invisible to er, to G A T T don't come under erm G A T T regulations, what those tariffs do nevertheless, tariffs have, have come down in manufactured goods right, erm, since the second world war when G A T T was er, was established. But because agriculture hasn't been in G A T T or up until recently hasn't been in G A T T agricultural protectionism has grown throughout that period right. Why might protectionism diminish trade? Increases confidence Okay,wh what do you mean there Helen? Erm, Okay so that will inhibit consumption consumption essentially That's right, this is the, this is the effect. Whether ther there's a there's a t two pronged effect the first of which is that high tariffs consumption because prices are higher and therefore consumption will fall and secondly, if high prices are also charged farmers to domestic farmers right then they'll increase their output. Now if they increase their output alright that will displace imports alright, so protectionism leads to self sufficiency and by and large self sufficiency is protectionism's raison d'etre, that's why it's there right it's to increase domestic output of this particular product . Does anybody know why agriculture wasn't in erm the G A T T it's never,t discussed in the G A T T why it hasn't er included in like manufacturing is reason why that is? Too political Yes, you're right. What do you, what do you mean by that Adrian? That's right it's a poli politically sensitive erm er, sort of industry right not only is there the element of strategic there's a strategic dimension right which political importance right, erm and also er,s an electoral, specifically electoral dimension. There's also this thing which is called agricultural fundamentalism right and the most developing c , most developed countries, most of the population live in urban areas and the they see erm er rural areas as being sort of the backbone of society, sort of the salt of the earth type of element in society that although they don't participate in themselves would like to maintain right and so even consumers may well be would not want see erm agriculture obliterated from er, from their country right because they like the products that erm that agriculture produces and they think that you can of erm destroying of the agricultural industry would, would pose an unacceptable burden on the fabric of rural society and as a result are quite happy to see protectionism er fo , for that industry. Now whether that's true or not I don't know. I think erm the tide is changing to a certain degree er on that point, but agricultural fundamentalism as it's called erm,tt is quite an important er aspect is political erm is political motivation for a support or for protectionism okay. Erm right so because trade in er trade in agricultural goods has fallen, one one of the reason for that is because there's been a lot protectionism on er agricultural goods the other side of that coin is that protectionism in manufactured goods has has fallen okay. Right why should we be bothered about protectionism y'know why is G A T so important presumably there must be gainers as well as losers from protectionism so the gainers and the losers domestic farmers gainers or losers? Gainers Good, they're the gainers. Domestic consumers right losers okay tax payers? Losers Yep, losers Sorry Yeah, it depends, yeah it depends wh what type of system of support you actually employ er some systems of support burden tax payers other him er. The general say the tax payers er also lost erm third country exporters? Losers Yep they're losers, big losers erm third country importers? No they they'll probably benefit in actual fact right there are som there are third countries don't all suffer right exported third country you will suffer but if you're an importing third country you will benefit right. Now agricultural erm one of the reasons why agriculture hasn't been included in the G A T T is because governments right from all sorts of countries have said hands up why agricultural policy, this is a domestic policy, it's got nothing to do with international trade, right there's no international dimension to it right, you can't come in here and t tell us that we're erm disbanding these protectionist measures right. It's a domestic policy, hands off right and this was one of the arguments one of those potent arguments that they've used in the last forty years right but it's incredibly naive because any domestic policy will have an international dimension I remember the about European Community right but it wasn't for the operation of the common agricultural policy countries in the European Community would be net importers of agricultural goods as we were ten years ago bec because er of protectionism we've now increased our self sufficiency to the point where were a net exporter of agricultural goods what implications has th does that have for international trade? Well if we're producing more of our own goods, we are importing less of somebody elses alright and if we actually become a net exporter then we've erm closing down the markets of third country exporters right so not only do we er consume less of er New Zealand lamb than we might do otherwise, right. Because we're er a net exporter of lamb we're also u erm try enter into the, the markets where New Zealand is er, is exported to Australia alright. So domestic policies will always have an international dimension to them alright, there are a large number of beneficiaries and losers erm to this policy er to protectionism alright. Now just to give you some numbers erm on er who gains and who loses right erm right for the world as a whole right, erm the study conducted by right nineteen eighty nine I looked at the cost of some benefits from agricultural support alright, in nineteen eighty six to nineteen eighty seven in just one year one crop year alright. Now it says on average for, and then essentially we looked at the three main support of erm protectionist powers, like the E E C, U S A and Japan right, and they said that on average alright for every one dollar benefit alright for every one dollar benefit, one agricultural support,right it actually costs right one one fifty dollars of the general statistics in order to give a pounds worth of support to domestic farmers, we er have to find one pounds fifty right. With any protectionism, right, when you, when you, when you protect something that you're doing, you're erm, you're introducing a distortion a distortion in the system which leads to a misallocation of resources alright. That is effectively we're paying this extra fifty pence right resource misallocation we there is always what's called a dead weight loss right to intervention, right it's an inefficiency loss or an efficiency loss, due to the fact that we're asking t , in this case farmers, right to using, use resources but farmers aren't the most efficient people in resources but in to erm, high tech computer companies, alright and if we gave pounds worth of support to a high tech computer company they would be able to produce more value as a result of that pound er than if we gave one pound to a farmer, simply because erm that, sort of the high tech industries are more productive, they're more efficient. Agriculture isn't particularly efficient economic sense technically efficient but not efficient. Right, so let's just get back to some numbers erm looking at the European Community right, the producer benefits alright, the European Community common agricultural policy produces benefits thirty three point three billion dollars presumably yes, billion dollars. Thirty three billion dollars of support goes to erm er European farmers, right. Consumers a thirty two point six billion dollars right, this is every year, this is nineteen eighty six, eighty seven right. So consumers foot the bill right, to the extent of thirty two point six billion dollars. Yeah, into consumers in terms of higher product prices Right why consumers pay er in the European Community, it's because we paying them two or three times more for our food than we would do if we purchased it on the world market erm . However tax payers are also involved right. Net cost to tax payers is fifteen point six billion, right. Although we do erm get some revenues from er import tariffs, as agriculture is increased its production and we've become more self sufficient, right, we're importing less, right so we get smaller and smaller tariffs right and tax payers pay erm y'know your V A T for example,where do you think your V A T's going? Seventy per cent of it is going into farmer's pockets, right, even on goods like m m manufactured goods, we pay V A T on er manufactured goods and that V A T pays for our contribution to the European Community and most of that contribution, about seventy per cent of it, goes to farmers tt erm, right so the next economic costs to European Community right are fourteen point nine billion alright that's the size of the dead weight loss that's the inefficiency right, of agricultural support right, losing fifteen billion dollars a year, right, just going down the er, the Swanny okay Just a couple of point just before we er before we close. What effect does agricultural support have on world prices? Does it increase world prices? Reduce world prices? Make them more stable or more volatile? Well t , in general, I mean there are some types of support, er more susceptible to but in general . Reduces Yeah, it reduces world prices, why why does it do that? Erm it allows domestic farmers to produce their so they go on to the world market and they've got everybody else these things That's right. That's right you know, we as consumers hav , consuming more of our own products, more of our own agricultural products, therefore we're importing less right. As a result, supply supply is increasing right in the face of re falling demand, right demand falling off because prices have are high. Simple supply and demand right now but this is the demand who say European Community as is the supply term erm what we call excess demand occurred rest of the world. Are we slap a tax on, tariff on there that reduces consumption right, what with world prices, world prices they used to be here they're now down here alright. Effec essentially supply we we've got over s , over supply and that brings down agricultural prices, erm and so wor world prices tend to be a lot lower than they would would have been in the absence of support. Now just to give you some figures I mean same tariff that's the world price supplied the rest of the world, in fact the tariff on it show them that the operation of a a tariff can affect erm world prices and just to give you some idea erm ah, can we just you know when we were talking about the net economic costs well they're within the European Community, those costs. We can add also to the fact that fifteen billion dollars a year right, is lost by er third country exporters, alright so we still add another fifteen on there per year that is erm errr oh yes, same study again erm suggest that in nineteen eighty six, eighty seven the year they look looking at, over forty percent, right of support to U S farmers, forty percent, nearly half of all support to U S farmers, quote merely offset the losses created by policies of other industrialised countries alright so nearly half of the support given to farmers in the U S alright we t to get them to stand still in in er in numerative terms, right. Because the European Community have been heavily heavily subsidising its farmers right, they were having in order farmers were too successful, we've had wine lakes, we had erm er butter mountains, we had to get rid of that, that was subsidised on the world market, as a result of that world market prices would come down right and that induced the agricultural government sorry the er American government to support its agriculture right and these chaps estimate that nearly half of the support given to the U S farmers merely offset their losses caused by essentially European Community and Japan subsidising their farmers. Prices are also made a lot more volatile right simply because the world market becomes a residual market, instead of everybody buying and selling through the world market right, if virtually everybody becomes self sufficient, the world market becomes a bit of a misnomer right, there isn't such a thing as a world market in that in that particular case it it may just be a few very small countries trade on the world market, it becomes very small market and therefore prone to supply erm fluctuations in any one country and as we know, supply fluctuations on inelastic demand causes price volatility. So prices have tend to have fallen on world markets for agricultural goods because of support right, and they've also become a lot more volatile and that, and that is the er the source of the international frustration with erm the common agricultural policy and this is why we've got agriculture er being introduced into the G A T T. Not only does it impose huge costs on domestic tax payers and consumers, it also in incurs erm a large cost on third country exporters, right now if you think that most of those countries may well be developing countries and agricultural output is their only source of foreign exchange erm then er the policies of the rich countries in the West are erm a actively erm hindering the development prospects of developing countries alright and that may not be the desired intention. Okay, thanks very much. And Carla miss I called your name I did miss Carla, you haven't called my name Carla Carla, Carla oh you were here last week when yeah Carla yeah I'm slowly getting to know names, it's the twenty seventh? yeah Yeah okay, rightio then, well last week we used our bodies last week d'ya remember what we did?, can you put your bag down please, take your jackets off, what do you think this is?, come on,nobody else here in the room okay, so last week we we did if you remember, erm, now this week we're going to do some sound tracks can I borrow this? gonna make some sound machines alright I can't I can't obviously we've got to work together on all, are you listening to me?, on all the different parts of the body, you want them all to come alive, okay, so, this week as I say we're gonna concentrate on sound, sound, sound, sound, you've got to play on sound that is the painting, I mean the, the pictures do you, alright that's fine, at the same doesn't matter we've still got to work on different things, yeah, okay?, erm, so, as I say we're going to make a sound machine in different groups, now to give you an example, what I what you to do is be , I'm going to give you a situation, give, choose a profession, okay, let's say we are in hospital, now I want you each and everyone of you in this group think of the situation, think of a sound that one might hear in a hospital, everyone to themselves just think of a sound, could be a patient screaming, it could be a heart machine, it could be, er exactly, could be that, could be absolutely anything, it could sirens, it could be anything, okay, for everyone I want you to have the sound in your head okay, everyone's got a sound in their head? Yeah just an example, now when I come round and tap you, I want you to make your sound and will you keep on making that sound repeatedly until I clap like that and tell you to stop, okay, so if I tap you go on you make your sound and you carry on and on and on, I'm gonna keep on taping different people's make their sound and then we're gonna see what it feels like you're in hospital, okay, now it doesn't matter if somebody's got the same sound as somebody else, it's no big deal, alright, because eventually they'll all blend into each other, but as soon as I've tapped you, make your sound, alright patients, come on where's the machines?okay, stop, now when did it start becoming out of hand?, at one stage we didn't really know where we were to, once, once I say ten people, okay, and that was also due to the fact that we had perhaps too many erm patients moaning, alright, it was good in one respect because why, it made obvious that we were in a, a hospital well something like , but erm when you're in smaller groups and you're making your sound machines, obviously it's much easier to to control and to make the overall sound more realistic, don't you think?, so, mm, what we're going to do is we're going to get into different groups, into groups of four, five, no big deal, you're welcome to only if you want to, and, you're going to, each group is going to choose er a profession, okay, you can be brick layers, you can be er musicians, er you can be er gardener, I mean absolutely you can be factory workers, you can be absolutely anything, and what you're going to do is you're going to choose, each person will choose a sound which is represented of that particular person, er profession, okay, and you'll going to make your sounds simultaneously so that as for the audience who are simply listening to you can just close our eyes cos we won't, you won't be acting you'll be making these sounds and using, we'll close our eyes and we'll know exactly where we are, okay, and then after that once we've done that just, before you choose your profession to know what this is going to lead onto, after that we're going to put movements to that profession, so when, if you were in a factory going er putting bottles on, on top top of bottles, you would have the movements going and you would have the sound going and I want you to build up, up, the sound machine which becomes the movement machine as well , so you're almost robotic so you, shh, shh, or whatever, however your sound, and each person does their thing in the factory or where ever they are and we will be able to see from listening and looking at the movements and obviously remember just because you're not an example it doesn't mean you can't talk, there might be for instance there would be a doctor going stand back, stand back, you know, er, in, in the you can use voices, but also obviously very, very effective to have sound voices, shh, shh, to create that part of it, have instruments, but this is how they actually started lay down sound tracks for movies, people specialize that it came to make the amazing sounds, okay, and then after that, er, this is another thing it leads to is there's going to be a break down in your sound machine, okay, there's gonna be a break down in your, in your entire robotic machine, movement in our machine, and that break down could be due to some of the workers going off and getting some of them erm you know, one, er part of the machine breaking down on the whole, sound changes, the movement changes and we're going to watch how this robotic machine changes as it breaks down, it could be sound shut down it could be it could be anything you choose, but I want it anyway, leave it to you so all you do is choose a profession, think of something that is, comes to life to you, in movement and in sound, okay, so let's get into groups of, see how many they are, one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, eighteen, nineteen, twenty, okay let's get into groups of four then, okay is that right, one, two, three, four, one, oh five, four, five, just get your group into a work in, I thank you if you don't get Vanessa into groups yourself I'll put you in groups come on into your groups please come on then quickly er can I see people not working properly? miss we've only got three you've got three what you got, can you work in your three? yes, we can okay, would you like to have one more? we can work in the three you'd like to work in the three?one more just simply because it's, it gives you more sound impulse okay is it going to be difficult to get one of them I don't know cos there're all together yes, okay, you three go and make your sound, means that you have okay each one of you have to be louder and also it also means that you can make, one person can make more than one sound, okay, work it like, just you can substitute for the other two I told you we walked off with the, with er Fel Felicity I didn't walk of with Felicity I walked off with Sookey well Sookey still come round well you don't want to join us, the rides so, it's it's your fault my fault? yeah, your fault half past three, I could of gone out even more then oh yeah ow ow what? they came look, they came this way, they didn't go, they didn't go the long way round, I believe ya, they came this way up here I know that's it it's Sarah noisy down here Amanda with them cars. If I fall I'm dragging you down with me no hi Flit, Felicity, hello, can you hear me? pardon oh sorry I just feel you were we're not always happier oh stop squabbling it's a nice, to nice a day to squabble nice? yes I'm soaking wet and you call it nice and it's dismal, oh it's raining and I call it nice I call it rotten weather Joanne I'll be singing, it's raining, it's raining no, not particularly cos it's not raining I don't know what I'm talking about don't worry not me not me huh, got it, oh yeah I did do it actually oh look at that dog, oh you thought it was gonna be a big alsatian didn't you? what's your, what's your book called? you know where you were?, I hope you do cos I've just lost your page mm, mm my shoulders hurting me your shoes? no my shoulder er which one?which one? my right one, this one did you bang it? no, just does, I slept funny or something ee I found out yesterday that black tee shirt I was wearing has stained me black oh where my tee shirt was it was black how?, how? how? I dunno the dye just come out oh cos the raining the raining, it was raining yesterday yeah and the dye had all come off there's Ben, there's Ben, there's Li , there's Ellen's lover boy so about ten o'clock in the evening I had to go and have a bath to get all this black stuff off me, it was horrible what colours your bath? it's grey oh so the bath, your baths grey yeah? so ba no, no, no no the water was grey because I got all this black stuff what colours your bath? white ah same as mine, the waters all grey, ah apparently black are you still black? no I had to get mum to do my back because I couldn't see my back ah and I had black all over my back, it was really horrible, and all my hands were black as well, and the how the the tee shirt didn't touch your hand no, no, no, but we've got your tee shirt, if you go like that yeah I sometimes go like that yeah its rubbed off on my hand I sometimes go like that yeah I don't it just rubbed off on my hand I just leave my tee shirt alone, basically ooh the where'd you get your tee shirt from? the and I have to go all the rude one to me I dunno I haven't yet cos Jo got a picture of my head when I was sleeping and a close up there's Jasmine where? where? there oh yeah speaking to she's normally talking to someone when I come in she's not with me, she's like over there going, hi yeah, she always says that why, are you a bit pissed off with her? no not, no hi hi I've got a stomach ache I've found my French homework at last I've got a stomach ache oh just I've got my shoulder, my stomach er, I'm in the wars today yeah okay my foot hurts bye bye J O N E S Jones Jones Who weren't here on Friday? no me, I was here two, two exclamation marks and two for Mr erm I wouldn't like to be doing this Carla can I have one? what? chewing gum I suppose so Right, all the noise is coming from this I don't care stop it, get on with your work you're gonna loose some of your break, understand erm, I have I have been round here and I've asked everybody and you've told me you've got your work sheets, now get a grip of yourself, get yourself sorted out all I'm getting is a load of racket from you lot your first language isn't English is it? mm? your first language isn't English is it?what's it? how'd ya do that? well, my second name goes sort of like erm okay, I ain't got, I ain't got much money though you can get brilliant bargains on food you know that? yeah, but I don't want to stuff myself with junk I know we're just saying McDonalds junk, but Marsha I'm going along to the chip shop and I'm going to McDonalds and get a drink, na, I'm gonna have to stay, how much, how much the chips?, sixty P and how much is milk shake?, one pound, that's one pound sixty and then money for sweets after school why is it important that the thighs are strong and light? I'm gonna get in trouble because you've been shouting away what, what have I been shouting? why does it get you in trouble?, just because no cos he said we've gotta be quiet oh oh please no you cannot use nothing have you seen what he's, what else he's put on that Mr Bond what? go and see Douglas yeah let's have a look at that Mr Bond thing yeah, hang on a minute you know I stood and asked who's got to do on a machine?, and everybody said they've got them, they've got a mark folder and they've got I don't see that why don't you just co-operate? so we can get the show off the ground were working I hate that teacher now who hasn't got the human machine working? one, two, for about the fifth time three you're not loud enough Sarah I can't hear you four, five, six oh and I've if anyone's close to what? finishing with the human machine working? how can a thigh bone erm be strong and light at the same time?, not in the bloody well he said that how can the thigh bone yeah be strong and light at the same time cos it's hollow I know that oh yeah yeah I've got that see yeah cos I'm cos your dunce she doesn't you don't know that I know and Sarah goes to me I think he's quite flattered, and I went in your dreams okay why they're stronger and why they're light no why there strong because they need to be, they need to be held up, the bones need to be held up and because they won't break so easily and erm, they're light because you don't want to drag down to the floor do you?basically if you've finished that, people are waiting for it who is?, can't she wait? no you do your work I am doing my work, god what? fold them up and what's mean? I've got scratched, oh no it's hot I've got scratched, but you know, I've got you put lipstick on? no, does it look like I've got lipstick on? I never knew you know, never work it before right who their machine? not me, I'm doing this one still tough luck no it's not touch luck no that was question six was homework oh six was homework you not you weren't allowed to take the sheet home who's got Tippex? me a piece of scaffolding oh thanks for asking and bone, a bone er, I don't wanna keep my jacket on where am I gonna put this? put the er, how the human puts the no we shouldn't actually who him? yeah Douglas says, let's, Douglas says let's have a look at Mr Bond, let's have a look at Mr Bond click your fingers at me I click your fingers at me if I want to why are you, on your feet and over there cos I need to and not there I'm looking at Mr Bond Mr Bond looking at what? Mr Bond what's that gotta do with the lesson? erm nothing much, okay, okay yes sir she's not here sit down and stay there well what if you have to get to machine, you're gonna have to get to move no one 's to answer your stupid questions Let's have a look, I don't know, I think he, I think he likes her though, but I don't know whether he wants to go out with her or not But does he, does he fancier her?, no I don't, I dunno cos I don't really know her, I don't really know her and all this, I was gonna say something, but I don't really know him, so I was gonna ask him does he fancy Sukey I sit next to him in my erm F T you should ask him if fancies her yeah have Papya sitting next to me as well so Papya will go blurting up to Sukey, going yeah Carla goes, Carla she told and before erm Papya goes any further she's gonna go Carla why did you say it? now you've made me forget what I was gonna say now it was a, yeah, yeah, you see the on her face who Sukey?, she goes to me, he I doubt, doubt if he'd fancy me, but she's just like, she's all going I doubt if he fancy me and do you think he does? yeah she goes, she, she, should see the grin on her face you see the grin on her face when erm, when you say when you go and she goes, no you stop him and there's a big grin on her face I doubt if many use to see her no I doubt if many people are gonna come in today, wow, what's that?blinking car and we started early, we started late it feels weird no it doesn't any more yeah it does, it feels weird, but we walking to school with no one around yeah, it's better though cos you think, you can hear yourself think yes this is right, all this noise and thinking about, looking at me there's no one on the roads alright, that's what erm, well a car when we had erm about Alice and all that yeah erm, well, the, the roads are empty on the Sundays but I er I got a lift erm school every time that happened not ever erm, I, I kept seeing people on the roads though yeah because there was quite a few people going to it yeah I've never ever like this never ever seen it like this it doesn't look up to about say the middle of the trees yeah near the leaves, it looks like, give, this is some sort of quarry or something, you know when they it's like an archway over the trees yeah huh, that dog better not bite me you know no, I hope it's already eaten yeah, it is is that one suppose to have a muzzle? no it's massive, oh what they called? not the Great Danes no, I dunno, great big fluffy tail and massive and fat and they're big erm a rottweiler yeah that's it, this, she's got three rottweiler's now and three? yeah, one died so only got three now and he walks and that cos he's quite, he's, he's quite little, he looks like yeah, he looks like he's taken them for protection cos he's like and no one will come near with them cos they're like, really if they'd see ya yeah so what and there's, I'm, I'm glad about that cos they were quite yeah come in to our classroom and stay who is? for the French lesson you know oh there's that, that new girl what new girl? the new girl oh yeah it's Wednesday erm does she know about coming to school? another car, huh, does she know about coming to school erm late? I've no idea, er Sukey's gonna slap her up probably look no one 's gonna end up getting left out anyway no that's true cos there's, there's eight, there's eight of us now is there? yeah who? hi huh? why? but I'm not late well I don't know how to fill out the register that's alright then no well it's not freezing no, but it what they doing here?, oh they came are we allowed to go in there? yeah yeah I see where? eight, five gotta sign this no there yeah I know pens running out, pen was running out all yesterday I've got one ah thank you I'm not going yet I'm just walking around pardon walking like this we have to wait here and see coming in from their lessons just so that we can go off and go to Geography is, is it, is it just the second year that has erm, perhaps it not where we going? I don't know who's got their tutor homework? what tutor homework? T P homework what's that? drawing you can do it, in it? I have done it, oh I haven't, I haven't brung it in well well he knows I've done it anyway done maths? homework no I done your maths? I've done, I've done Mr my erm, my erm, that homework last term and he's gone and lost it you done your maths? what? maths? no have you? due today I know but I haven't done it, have you? yesterday I wasn't here when it was given out so I didn't know what it was what er erm, what was your answer? mine? what did you get in the, in the table assess yesterday? answer? yeah, eleven oh, you've got one as well what did you get in the table assess yesterday? what did you get in the table assess yesterday? table assess twenty eight, erm twenty eight, eighteen twenty eight eighteen I, I didn't do mine, I yeah yeah, bye yeah, bye I got twenty out of twenty why have you got it? I got twenty out of twenty mm, cos listen to what I mean, Ollie goes, I was sitting next to Ollie yeah and she looks at my thingy, yeah, and she goes that's what, you've missed out three, so I sat there writing all the nec numbers, yeah, and miss goes the other table and I'm like oh come on Carla hurry up and do the numbers inside, and I missed, I just couldn't, I couldn't catch up ah, ha yeah yeah yeah anytime yeah Sarah you need six,eight, four, erm no cos the six was, yes Do you like, erm Chung Chew Ying we don't know her she's she's very quite that's why she not really shut up what? apart from the way she does it, she goes she goes to him, she goes alright she lives in she's alright, she's nice in a way to talk to her I came up to her and started talking to her, yeah, and then Marsha goes to Gemma like that, it's like listen that's when I came over to you two if you, if you've got and then you two started whispering so I went somewhere else, so I was whispering in class if you, if you are gonna do your world experience what would you like to do? what would you wanna do? what? I'd like to go and work in the Old Bailey with a barrister you can you know cos I know I know, I know my sister Jenny did that well my sister had a go, she knows people you see, like Jenny's I thought, wouldn't it be good though if they, if what they did is on that day we went they pick everyone who wanted like the jobs yeah yeah and if lots of people wanted to study law, they'd all bring them to like a lawyer, say yeah be your partner on that day? no, er, ah, yeah, if we go to the yeah, same place and everything I dunno if we're gonna be, oh Miss didn't say I'm I think all the classes go to the same place yeah , no, he said separate he said separate different employers yeah, cos if you are, erm yeah the whole years doing it I know, it would be no point it would be like the whole year was getting I know, but it wouldn't be any point if someone wanted to be like a dustman a doctor and they got into a nursery place it's all worth the experience though I know, but it still wouldn't be any point, huh, if they, cos the thing is if you go to all those lectures and then, because you're allowed to go to an employer of what you wanna be, you see they talk to you about it and they, and then you go on the computers oh this I'll be so and you work on the computers what you're gonna be and then it'll be silly if they brought you to a nursery afterwards if you wanted to be a nurse, you mean nursery no, it isn't Felicity wanted it, Felicity wants teacher yeah she at school she already is in school, I mean you know for teaching like what,really stupid, for work experience they just gave you places to go I don't think they do cos you might not even wanna be that person yeah, but it has to have something it has to have something with what you wanna do yeah, and that, if not like I once read a book where this girl she wanted to be a doctor and they brought her to a nursery for work experience cos my sister, yeah, she wants to be responsible, she wants to be a scientist yeah yeah, she wants to be with the science lab, yeah yeah she worked in a lab for a week and but then you, then, it's that, it's, when you're at work experience it's then when you really find out what it's like yeah so then you can decide whether to do it or not but, it's only for a day, so you don't really know it's not, he said two weeks of work experience two years no, no, not now, but in the sixth form you spend two weeks yeah in work experience,then you know really how it is and what, but if you didn't wanna do it, then, oh god, be a lot of and like you decide it doesn't really matter because yeah I know, but if you took like all your A levels for the, to be a scientist and then no you wanted to be like you take yours what do you wanna be and that? I've sa I've always wanted to be a barrister I want to be something here I want to be something in law yeah or in a film film so I'm gonna study, I'm gonna do theatre study so yeah and what do you wanna do Carla? something in law, what do you wanna do? be a journalist what? journalism oh yeah, journalist tell you why you can, you can do that, you know you can go into journalist, erm a newspaper probably I tell you what I like about send them to the Guardian I tell you what I like or something like that you know about law and the film business cos there's loads of jobs to choose from,ba and you've still got to do the same thing they won't send you to anything like The Sun or the Daily Mirror I don't think they, they will The Sun? something like that come on The Sun yeah, fun yeah, no, but that's still a paper though isn't it? yeah, but I doubt The Sun come all got it no, right there're probably thinking, maybe the Evening Standard I doubt, I doubt them two something like Evening Standard or perhaps it would be a good The Times or The Guardian yeah something interesting like that but not, not posh ones I'd like to see a media oh I'd like to read the studies journalist where or they go and critic on films I'd like to d'ya know when they go and er watch films something like Barry Norman, that'd be wicked job no I don't like that sort of job what do you wanna do go to places like you know the alternative, do you wanna be er inside journalist or an outside one? what's the difference? like I want er insides when they work in the studios, outsides when they go like studios to Beirut it depends it depends really I don't know about going there cos they're quite dangerous sometimes yeah yeah I, I think I'd like to do I hate to be someone like you know, you know that Cooke Report thing yeah yeah oh yeah he got beaten the camera man got beaten up who? yeah, didn't you see it? on Watchdog, the lady yeah erm, we've never seen and they say this woman big crooks yeah, and the woman she got her dogs chain and she hit her over the back, she's got all bruises, she told us after when when her report and oh I hate to have to work , I hate lawn mowers like that they're annoying get an electrical one, they're much more chea , they're much more better, er shh, shh you're done you don't have to spend all day mowing the lawn with the, the pair of scissors we might be moving again d'ya know that? oh why, she get you in more trouble or something? yeah, she nearly tried to knock my mum off her bike what in her car you mum? yeah really when's this? er, erm, Marsha? yeah we take that off Carla I can't Carla rewind it, rewind it I can't, stop it, it's on I can't pardon yeah when you got on the bus, yeah yeah put your head phones on and listen to it You know if you've, erm do you know if you've erm recorded it, if you're like speaking if you like in a group do you put all their names down?, or just put a group? I'd put all their names down yes same here cos it, cos it like takes up half the tape anyway and it's, it might be the same people speaking again your friends yeah, probably, I'd just go and the names are, I thought it was like I was like half through the tape, yeah, and I thought, and I was like, I had one name to go I was like one, I was like half way through the tape and I had, I only had one name to go the, the university isn't going to tell anybody are they? no, right think it's like confidential want me to wipe it off, I'm not gonna don't wipe it off I'm not gonna tell her you have that yeah I will and this is like I had er half a side left, yeah yeah I had one name left and lucky it was on the back and just talking and talking and talking, it's erm, it was in my bag, and it did, it did pick up I have to check through my tapes cos I'm not sure if they, if I've used it all up I've like got to last sentence and it was cut, and it was like really lovely of mine, half of mine cut half off people's conversation ah, no, did you turn over? no I just left it cos it might, I don't know it might of been side B, I think it was, side B was I've only done blinking one tape, I wanna do three at least yeah so I'm gonna start talking at home stop my sister shouting at me probably I take it up to this, yes so we have to try and be really polite you see and she helps us like you are and, and see how your my sister will shout at me shut up you little cow mum goes, don't you swear at her no swearing thank you, and it's like she hates swearing, it's like, not even swearing cows and animals my mum told me to wipe some of it, some of it off cos I couldn't her shout, I, I, I caught her shouting at my sister, she got really angry with my sister wipe it off, tt I'm not, I'm not wiping it off cos I mean, they insist talking with us, it's, er, that's what we talk about it, cos we usually talk about that, erm, what's happening what, boys? no, I have yeah, erm, I've got a lot, I have it's about her, the reason why she's moving all this stuff oh leave it all cos nobody's going to know what it's about ah stink bomb urgh I hate that stuff you think, nobody's going to know what it's about anyway it's gonna be confidential, and they don't know who's, who's on the tape do they?, really no, not really ev even if you write down their name oh, who the person you're talking about yeah not and even the person you're not talking about and you got well say Kate was talking and you were talking, and you wrote their names down, they won't know who's who yeah you see hold on, I was speaking to erm Sukey and Marsha and in between master with Mr yes they were no the grotty old one with the with Sarah how? cos I had a conversation with yeah, but I mean, if, it's just a group I've just walked to school for fucking nuffink I haven't got a lesson I've just got second lesson off it ain't funny you've got first and second lesson, ha, ha oh bloody hell everyone finds it funny, I don't are you going to stay at school or go home? no, by the time I've get home I'll have to walk back to school again where you live? stay home no Marsha what's her name again? now I won't be able to get my cigarettes no, erm, that, what she told us was her surname that's her name though no, that's how they, she told me that, that's how yeah, I know that's her name they call it in erm but her names erm or something they, that's not she doesn't say that yeah, but she told Hayley that they call her name was can't they call her and that's how it's a lot easier yeah that'll be what's her surname? only say erm, only say their surname in erm in India because there's so many people with the name there, but there ain't in our class ah, are you sure she's from India? yeah she doesn't look it at all but she is she looks Chinesey ah, but when we asked her where she's from she said India she was born in India no, they're both Indian make a wish, make a wish erm, erm don't tell us, just make a wish and blow it I don't anybody take it, hold a wish and blow it oh god where is it? got it? oh got it, oh yeah I have make a wish, blow it look at handsome prince come riding pass and sweep you off your feet, is it? just by guess, yeah oh this takes the piss man, I bet you there's no one in school with a cigarette in his arm still have ten minutes to she's bad what? right near my feet and she went yeah oh god, I'm not half awake today, I'm not normally this quiet Excuse me, excuse me everybody don't you think she should enter in this competition, to be a model for yeah oh yeah don't she?, shouldn't she? yeah I told you there weren't no school a modelling agency, for a year, a one contract she'll beat Kate anyway a year, a one year modelling contract with a league premier sounds good to you don't it?, you can buy me cigarettes every day I'm only joking, oh I wanna cigarette, who can I ponce off?, don't, that's what I'd say yeah, don't that's my motto, no chance, alright then I smoke drugs instead, no not really I don't smoke drugs any more only when you bother, yes you do no I don't you do, you told me you did no I don't I don't no, she doesn't really I don't I drink she doesn't she drinks yeah she smokes cigarettes, but she doesn't smoke drugs she in other words it's just as bad good it's just as bad you know my sister smokes drugs, I lied, my sister smokes drugs, she won't even touch a cigarette, but she loves her diamond white you know what's diamond white? it's a alcohol drink, she loves it this a don't know ask her about, she was calling me Sharon on the train cos I was wearing a skirt, she's going oh Sharon, she was drunk you're gonna enter aren't you Jasmine? she should shouldn't she? yeah exactly enter it shouldn't she? ask her mum first she'd, she'd beat them now, age yeah why don't you at thirteen? exactly Kate must model, she'd beat her at I'll speak to my mum cos my mum doesn't want me bloody stripping yeah, but you can just try it, they're not going to make you strip yeah that's what my mum said just the mirror she said I don't want you stripping, I says I ain't gonna strip yeah, but they're not gonna, if they say it then they don't make you strip she goes I'll do porno's look's like you went and like all the clothes and I suppose you call this rust colour, shoe size five six bloody hell I'm five seven no, I'm, I suppose so I don't think so you can't be I am, cos last time I measured myself in you can't be, I'm five seven she's as tall as you yes, she is as tall as you, she's five seven who's fag? mine, with hair all over it, my hair for my brush alright, maybe next time alright I'll see you later must, erm, stand back to back a minute see you,around anyway no stand, stand, stand back to back, oh I think she's taller Jasmine's taller oh that's not fair you're five eight you're five eight, you stand, you st I don't think same size as my mum I don't think so somehow cos my mums five eight and my mums erm quite tall she's not five eight your mum, you said your mum's five eight yeah she's not five eight no way you saying she's five eight, Jasmine er, yes she's about five seven, six my mum's five eight who is five eight? my mum's, no she isn't, well how would, how tall are you? she's about five six, five six I don't know what I am she, you're more, you're more than five six and a half measure yourself now no, when you get home, with a tape measure I know what I am, I'm five four you're five three I'm five foot then no you're about five two, five three, who's taller?, who's taller? you she must be about five two wait, hold on, stand, stand with your legs together both of you Hayley your feet are there yeah she's taller a little bit yeah, but look Hayley's feet, you're about five two right, that's it both of you stand on the stuff here we have, we did stop leaning on me I know I am five four how tall do you reckon I am Marsh? I'd say about five six five six and a half yeah she's five seven who's five seven? Jasmine did you measure yourself? no so how does she know she's five seven cos this la , the girl out there said she's five seven, so she she thinks, she thinks she's five seven she's, she's got Jasmine's taller than my mum my mum you see my mum, yeah yes see my mum, five eight, my mum's taller than her, yeah, my mum's five eight, not five seven my mum's five six so she's taller, and she's taller, she's taller than my mum by about how much taller? I dunno the best thing to do is measure yourself if I'm five eight five seven oh yeah I'm five seven and a half doesn't matter well I'm five three, you're much more, it means you're taller than me You could do it if I was taller, yeah If you were taller cos all, you've got the right body yeah erm, you're pretty enough and it's like, taller I don't know about it actually no Sukey long hair yeah, but, but you could of done it I, no way you could of seriously because they want, they don't want models like that erm yeah, but I need to be a bit skinnier and a bit taller yeah, if you loose, if you were taller and skinnier no, if you were taller you would get erm and skinnier because you would shape, you would shape out yes that's true you would shape more but she's, she's as skinny as well has it er, yeah yeah cos it's like erm, it's like, her, her calves and her shins are like same size as her thighs yeah she doesn't know she's all one size, best thing about being a bit podgy yeah, at least she has oh you it's due for about a bit more then oh no often what you getting? erm, my usual, hamburger yeah I'm not that hungry I'll get a happy meal, but not in a, not in a box, a medium drink hap happy meal are more expensive than getting yeah it separate is it? yeah and I'm going to get a medium fries, I don't like small fries, I'll get a cheese burger I think oh you know those small fries you get those little weeny erm little fries yeah it's like they count them out and go that's a small one yeah put it in the small pile and they get all the lanky ones yeah yeah in the larger yeah I remember when they use, they didn't use to be a medium small and large yeah and the large one was the just the red packet I remember I used to pick off all the sesame seeds of the bun so did I and erm I used to pick it off and leave the bun and eat the hamburger and my dad used to eat the burger Can you think of any, erm names for a bar, it's got nuts and raisins in it? A what? my homework is yeah, my homework is er what? design erm two bars, toffee bars yeah with you know nuts and raisins summat like that yes my first one was oat bar, yeah yes a bar of raisins, muesli and oats, called oat bar yes and then my one was a bar with nuts, oh I thought of a nice name nuts on 'em and yeah nature bar nature? yeah why nature? well a natural bar then no mum what's that noise? it's downstairs, a burglar alarm or something who's? I dunno must look and see tt I wonder where the other two are? they're probably snogging listen to me yeah, you know what I done yeah what? I was hiding behind, I was hiding behind a tree and ready to jump out and flash my torch and my going aargh, yeah yes they were, they were ha , I thought they, they, they were over there and they were looking for, there wasn't like taking yeah, yeah and they were like standing there, I thought they were looking, I shined the torch on them and they, still was there snogging snogging I think, er she's going home now probably, a bar with nuts and raisins called raisin natural bar I'm sorry about loo loosing the keys mum, mum tt the noise has gone the noise has come back by the way hello, hello I'm gonna get in trouble mummy, mummy yes have they found them? I dunno, I don't think so tt, Tina weren't looking no I know, but she's just worried about this find them? no they've gotta turn up mum says What?, what? mum says they've gotta turn up they're gonna turn up? yeah did you take them with you? yeah, I what? what you got in there? little toy, whatever you, choose aargh No it's my plate ah tut, tut, tut, I'm doing the tour not you, cos here we have the plate I bought for Paula correction not Carla, Paula, there you go, with a P, you're P, which she probably don't like anyway with the nuts in yeah I do which is mine with lunch tomorrow and a which has I thought he smoked no, they, they oh I know them, they'll all bloody wicked they are three different flavours I know she was, she, you did know that she was recording didn't you? oh shut up Paula recording what?, oh well I er hello, who's calling please?, oh yeah, hold on oh let's have a bite of your yorks no, it's for my lunch tomorrow you see don't lie just don't give her any I am I'm not eating it today, I am, I'm not eating oh ya, bull shit yeah bollocks bollocks you wanker you stirring little woman you are I know let's have a bite of your flake no oh go on, I'm hungry please no what? she won't give me a bit of her flake she wants my flake oh that's not fair tt, huh no what? no don't walk away no, don't walk away no how are you? fine don't you put me don't eat that sweet either that's I don't care I don't want your poxy yorky, I've got a bike up there I can go and take it then pass it and nick it huh, oh lend me, I know you're recording me so what? okay, if you lend me that, I'll give you your Caroline you nicked my Caroline no, no, she thought it was hers and she wanted me to you bitch not re no, no, listen, listen, no listen, listen, listen, it's not, wait a minute, no, right, it was up there, we thought it was hers but it wasn't hers, so I took the wrong one and you didn't it's not her thought it's my fault okay listen listen, listen, a bar with raisins, muesli and oats called oat bar yeah, that's my design, a bar with nuts and raisins what can that be called?, mum goes nature bar erm, mum goes nature bar what? mum goes, yeah, listen, a bar with raisins, muesli and, and oats, called oat bar yeah yeah and this is my other idea, a bar with nuts and raisins call it, it's good for you mum goes mum, mum goes natural bar call it, it is good for you, natural bar natural bar you caught one?, you got one? ah, yeah I did Paula what? what shall I call it? what?, the new nut, new nuts and raisins I, mines got a in it by the way, beer belly ooh and fluff will you stop , they're smart they are I wish you take that horrible noise, I don't like it, you understand, in the house okay, cos Sonny's coming round, and it gets horrible through my ears and gives me a headache pierces her head I beg your pardon I said it pierces your head that's what I did oh pierce yeah, yeah what's that noise outside?, that alarm was that was an alarm oh it's a car a car alarm? well I wouldn't Excuse me, excuse me, I'm recording here can you not kiss around please, mummy Yeah so you've, have you put the potatoes away? Already done hurry yes shh, the potatoes where've you been?, where she been? she's been out and Tina has been watching over her oh, she's been playing with computers? yes, yes right, and who was And Mark and a boy called Mark Haringey or whatever his name is and a boy called Mark yes Mark eh and guess where he works, guess where we have to change, the bushes huh,what, I'm sulking yes so I can hang around to whoever I want to hang around with what about the larking up like that, don't you think that's a bit much? what? your sister telling your brother and that exactly that's disgusting mum yes darling I need help oh darling can I go to the toilet, I've got, I've got other things to do oh fine I don't like helping this time of night, sorry, it's half past ten in the morning, so what nutty nut, I've got it nutty nut no fruity nut no, it hasn't got fruit in it, it's nutty nut it's, it's fruits, nuts and raisins, raisins are fruit fruity nut er no, cos that looks like fruit and nut, erm nutty nuts, nutty fruit, nutty bar, nutty, nutty raisin bar thing, ah, erm, a, a design from Carla my voice sounds weird you know I think, I dunno does mice have, nut, nutty b , nutty nut it's got more than it's got more than nu , it's got more nuts in it no, yeah, but tt, nutty fruit fruit and nut fruit and nut can't copy you going Hampton Court as well on Sunday? mm, mm you going what?, what ya say? going to Hampton Court we're going Hampton Court who is? me and mummy and Paula we are, me and mummy and so you have to feed yourself yeah when?, what day? Sunday Sunday Sunday? my holiday without oh oh god darn, it's not eleven yet is it? no no it's only twenty five past ten oh god, darn yes nutty nut, er nutty fruit yeah nutty fruit nutty nutty raisins nutty fruit, fruity nut well something that has nutty nut, I think nutty nut nutty I think natural bar sounds good natural bar but I think that should be for the oats one you think so? yeah okay natural bar natural bar, so let's just copy how'd ya spell nut, natural? N A T R A Paula, Paula natural yes N A T R I A L ? no,N A T U R hold on, hold on N A T U R A L I think U R how do you know what English people like?, urgh what's this called?tt, I think nutty nut, nutty, fruit and nut, oh, nutty fruit, nutty fruit, nutty nut fruits too much though so I'll leave my homework there,are my pens any where?my ooh, ooh, ugly man, ooh they're gross oh yeah huh, I've gotta go to bed now gotta pack tomorrow Friday yeah I can stay out even later got a worm in the bushes lovey eh? I swept I was in the butchers you see the fl how wet the floor was Doctor 's obviously a more frugal character than me because he had this room and the radiator was turned off. I have turned it on and it is doing its little best but our guests from the south are obviously I'll, I'll sequins, it sounds like Come Dancing . Oh I don't know I'm sure say anything rude. No honest. Do they? some voices aren't allowed to er appear. Are you still in here? It it's okay carry on it's alright I'm, I Right. Okay I'm sorry I haven't had level three supervision groups before so this is a whole new experience for me Well we're very high powered you know Chris has given me my instructions so Oh no I'm supposed to first say is th are you finding the course okay and to ask you about your projects. So course okay so far? supervisor. So Mike have you got your project sorted out? Well it's more or less in hand, yeah. What what you're doing? Yeah With Stewart? yeah. So is it just a continuation of what you've done anyway? Well more or less but he weren't amused at any of the results so Oh I see right. I've got to start again . That's rotten. So are y are you just do No it's quite fair actually. are you just doing are you just doing one er sorry j er are you just doing one project a t a two term project? Yeah. Right so you're s you're sorted out. Charles what are you doing? Er I'm doing something on wild salmon. Oh right. Who, who are you er with? Er with Gordon. ? Yeah. Oh right, so what are you, tell us about it, what are you going to do? Erm well Alex and I are both doing it but Alex has got his own rivers so he's doing it on his own sort of thing Alex and er I'm I'm, think I'm doing mine more sort of related to er the eggs. Right. So where Well sort of looking in that, that s er on the Tyne. Oh right. So I mean is this eggs that are put in by the, I mean I Er yeah I think it will have something to do with that, yeah. I've sort of er I've So are you just doing a lit is it, is it a two term project as well? Yeah. And you're just starting a research? Yeah. Right. I've started that, I've gotta, just gotta I went and played on the computers yesterday. You went what? And played on the computers yesterday Oh right, oh right. Have you all, by the way have you all tried this C D rom thing Mm in the library? It's quite fun. It's quite fun, have you tried that? Yeah that's what I tried yesterday. Has anyone got anything useful out of it yet? No it's Yeah I know but they're not exactly over run with them are they? in the library or down here we have to do Have you got to be more specific with your requests? I haven't tried it. Well probably but it do it s I mean it, you either put in I, I mean I most, most You're doing most of the things that I've done have been on Atlantic salmon and you put in Atlantic salmon and you get seven thousand eight hundred Yeah. and forty abstracts out Right forget that. And you narrow it down and you get zero. Oh right, right. Right, so you've got to play about with the system a bit more? I think so I think so. Right. ASFA I think it's more helpful I think than C D rom isn't it? What's the difference between ASFA and C D rom? It's spelt different. No but ASFA is just on the scientific end Erm okay first things first, can I just have your full name please? Sarah Is that ? erm and your date of birth please . And your address? Yeah. And are you on the phone there? No. Okay just so I can assess whether I can give you reduced cost advice under the legal aid system, are you working at all at the moment? Do you receive income support? Okay,what we'll do then is get you to sign this form here, we call it a green form fairly obviously from its colour and that means that I can do up to erm about eighty six pounds worth of er a bit more depending on on what we have to do, and you don't have to pay us anything towards that. I take it as you are on income support you've got no savings at all. no. Okay could you sign that for me please down the bottom there. Right what can we do for you? I was advised by a policeman custody advice. Okay. Er can you give me the name of the father of the child? Alan Alan? And his address? . ? . And the child's name? Ricky. R I C K I? Y. Okay. No middle name? Alan. . And his date of birth? Er and does he suffer from any serious illness or disability? No. Right er custody no longer exists, it's called something else. Erm what you apply for if if it goes to court is what's called a residence order, and what you would probably know as access Yeah. is known as contact. Okay all the rules changed er =bout about a year ago now. S are you having problems at the moment with with the father? Well erm when I was living with him Yeah. he assaulted me a f few times and the last time he did it I involved the police and he was in court last Thursday and he was found guilty of assault. And that's the only time I've seen him since Boxing Day last year. Convicted last Thursday? Yeah. What happened to him, do you know? Erm got fined a hundred and ninety six pounds and has got to pay me fifty pound compensation. Apart from that you separated in December ninety two. Mm Erm did you say Boxing Day? Yeah. That's the last time he saw Ricky as well. He's never been in contact. Erm are you expecting a problem from him? that's why I was advised to come and do this? Right, what are you expecting to happen? Well he doesn't know where I live at the but it came up in court that he was going to take me to court for access, making it out as though it was my fault that he hadn't seen Ricky, I was stopping him from seeing Ricky when it's his own fault. I've been told by numerous friends of his that he doesn't want anything to do with Ricky at all, that he's said . Why do you think that he said said to court he was gonna go for ? I don't know it's just I think he's trying to make me out as a bad mother Did he ever use any violence on the child towards the child? Well he's hit me while I've had my kid in my arms and quite a few times. He's never actually gone to harm Ricky. Does he work? No. Have the Child Support Agency had an interview with you yet?because from April this year er they are pursuing all absent fathers for maintenance. Yeah. Even if he is not working they will want er I think it's two pounds twenty a week out of him. last I knew it was five pence a year. Yes it's it's all changed . But the Child Support Agency deal with that and courts don't deal with maintenance these days . Mm . He he has said if I do go for maintenance he'll deny that Ricky's his. There's nobody else it can be is there? . Okay this is erm an application for full legal aid so that we can deal with an application for residence. Can you just sign that for me down the bottom there? I have to say I'm a little doubtful as to whether legal aid will be granted because the courts now take the view that if there's no contest between you and him as to who's going to look after the child, then they won't make a court order. They will only make a court order if there are major problems. Erm for instance if he's asking for the child to go to live with him and you oppose that then then court would make a decision as to where the child s should live. Er in terms of contact they will also make a decision giving days and times of contact if it can't be worked out between the two of you. Mm. Er but otherwise it won't interfere. It'll leave it to you er both to make any arrangements on contact. I take it from what you say that you don't want him to see the child? Well? No not really because he's he's a heavy drinker Aha. and when he's been drinking he's very violent. And I definitely don't want him to have him at weekends because that's when he's at his worst. He plays football as well. He's got a daughter from a previous relationship and he used to have her at weekends and he used to leave her all the time so he could go and play football and go out drinking. the name of that child? Rachel. Rachel what? Okay. There's two things we can do. We can either that's the wrong way to phrase it. We can either do nothing erm and just wait and see whether he com comes back to you and says I want access contact to er to Ricky, erm in which case we can then do something about it. Erm or we can make application for legal aid to go to court for a residence and contact order now. The disadvantage of doing that to my mind is it simply prompts him into doing something. Mm. It may be that what he's said in court is purely something to get back at you and he doesn't really mean it. Well I was advised to do this because m my Dad's a policeman Yeah. and he thinks because I've he's pleaded had to plead guilty in court Yeah. That's he's gonna come back at me cos like I've got one over him Right. and he thinks he's gonna come back at me somehow. I think on balance I mi I my advice is that we do nothing, just wait and see if whether he contacts you at all. Mm. Erm firstly because as I say it may prompt him into doing something if we write to him saying you're making an application to court yourself. Erm he may then decide well I'm gonna do something about it. Erm and secondly because a court won't interfere if th if er there's no need to. Mm. No need to protect the child. You have all the rights as a mother. You have what's called parental responsibility. Erm he has nothing at all because he's never been married to you. So the only way in which he can have any rights at all to Ricky apart from you agreeing, is to go to court himself, erm and I'm inclined just to say lets see what he does. If he does make an application to court then at that stage we can er we can oppose his application. Mm. Erm it may be that what he said in court was purely bluff. Er I what I don't want to do is to prompt him into Yeah. taking some action himself. Now if he does come round and creates a nuisance He doesn't know where I live. Well The only way he can contact me is through my grandma or my Mum . Mm well if he finds out where you are, or even if he visits relatives and starts making threats saying he's gonna get you or he's er assault you, or he's gonna hurt the child, anything like that, then er the first thing obviously is to contact the police to warn him off and secondly contact me, cos we'll then be able to apply for an injunction to stop him coming anywhere near you. Mm. that stage hasn't been reached you see because you've not seen him since Boxing Day. Apart from last year Right so I think really I've said about everything I need to say. er you follow the follow my argument. Yeah. Erm I think we'll just wait and see what he does. If he starts creating harassment for you let us know and we'll stop him. Okay then. Okay. Right thanks . Thank you very much. Bye. Bye. Bye. erm right I'm new to the area and I'm sort of wanting to move into the Garden City great take a seat, is it still as cold out there as it looks? Absolutely freezing out there Oh yuk oh horrible horrible. Okay so you're looking for a house or well I'm actually I'd like something cottagey if at all possible but erm I'm quite open minded at the moment erm I'm so new to the area I'm actually in Brookmans Park at the moment right but my house is on the market Okay has that been on there long? it's been on for about the past month and what sort of response are you getting on that? not too bad had a couple of people round in the last week and one seems quite keen all fairly encouraging then yeah, you know quite hopeful so what I as I say what I'm really looking for is I've got a preference for older properties but you know try not to pin myself down to too much at the moment, I've got about a hundred and thirty to spend so ideally I'd like a cottage old style but I do need three bedrooms O K, right erm ideally would like something in villages O K but something on the outskirts of the Garden City might be O K perhaps on the northern side right O K that's fine um I've heard the west side's nice yeah west side is very popular and it tends to be the area where we get the older properties as well so that's encouraging that would suit me then wouldn't it? O K, with erm other than the three bedrooms do you have any particular requirements, do you need a garage or anything like that? A garage would be nice and as we've got two cars so although a garage is vital if we as long as we can get them off the road that would be an advantage and with regard to the three bedrooms do you actually need three bedrooms or if a a two bedroomed cottage came up with perhaps an extra room downstairs or something would that be okay? erm yes it should be okay perhaps you know if obviously if one bedroom a box room wouldn't be any good to us but that would be consider that yep it's just that some of the cottages tend to be a bit smaller so that it might well be that we can get you something where there's a perhaps ground floor extension or whatever okay. Do you need to be or have access to the railway station or to the main roads or anything like that? It's an advantage but with cars it's not really a problem so that's fine okay, smashing. What sort of timescale are you looking at to move, really just waiting to get a buyer on yours or well yes as soon as things get moving there then we would be ready really so hopefully in the next month or so Good, okay well let's take some details from you and what I'll do is I'll register your details onto our mailing list so that erm, anything that's coming onto the market you'll get a phone call on straight away to let you know but also I'll then check and see what we've got that might suit your requirements at the moment. So what's the name please? erm, it's erm okay and what's your address erm it's and the postcode there is? okay is there a home telephone number for you? erm yes it's erm would be okay and is there a day-time telephone number a work telephone number? yes you could probably ring me at work yep that's more convenient so that's okay any extension on that or do we come straight through to you? that'll come direct that's smashing okay. Now you just said you've got your own property to sell and that's on the market at the moment okay, erm have you had any advice on mortgage and what we should be able to obtain on the mortgage side of things? er yes we have actually but erm is that from your own building society or well we were actually going to be going through the Halifax but have you got any other suggestions? Yes erm, we've actually linked with a firm of independent mortgage brokers erm so rather than being tied to a particular building society as most estate agents are erm what they will do is they'll shop around and tell you which lenders are offering the best terms and particularly good schemes at any one time erm, it's literally free information they simply phone you up and say get some idea of what your salary is and what your requirements are and then they'll send through some information for you. Can I ask our adviser just to give you a free phone call? Yeah, erm it certainly wouldn't do any harm, erm I'd rather not be rung at work if that's alright no that's alright we try and keep it confidential so they work evenings they'll contact you, is there yeah right well you know any time after sort of six, six thirty you should be able to catch me then okay and is there a particular evening that's best for you? erm, no most evenings it doesn't really matter no that's fine, okay, smashing. Right, well as I say I've got your details here so what I'll do is if you bear with me I'll go and a have a look through the drawers and see what we've got available. Okay? Do you just have the one office or No , no we've got another office at Knebworth which is a village approximately six miles north of here, what I will also be doing automatically is passing your details through to the office so that as you're looking for character property and village property they'll be particularly appropriate okay, but also to make life easier we actually carry their details here so anything that they've got available I'll be able to give to you now Oh fine okay then give me a ring if anything new comes in I'll give you a ring if anything new comes in Well thanks very much indeed Thanks Okay, thank you bye bye Yeah erm the other er aspect of any discussion of Vienna is the er, is discussion of the congress system itself. Erm whether that was a a, a er a success or failure. Erm the general response to this is that it was a failure. There's an even more er perhaps er pertinent er point on this that er that did it did the congress system actually exist in any meaningful way. Again erm perhaps we ought to refer one, one of the still rather good stuff on this is from er, is from Thompson's book. And indeed I see one. Thompson Nicking books eh ? Yes there's there's a rather good I was recommending Thompson's book er last week. Erm it does have a rather good section on the congress system. And I'll, I will endeavour in, in a second to er find it. I would say that erm We could perhaps describe the congress system as a partial success. A partial success. It helped to keep the peace. So in that sense again in the language of of the old old ten sixty six and all that it was a good thing. However you see a tendency in erm after eighteen eighteen to be perhaps more serving, to be serving the interests of the er er east European powers. And then it became perhaps a troublesome er entity. Of course they had a problem at the outset that being all the powers had agreed on the need for joint intervention say er vis a vis France. In eighteen, between eighteen fifteen and eighteen eighteen er the great powers did intervene in France. They had an army of occupation in some of France's north eastern departments. France was on in a sense France was on probation in eighteen fifteen to eighteen eighteen. Erm and and and we could take it back to the hundred days episode when the great powers have all er decided to er er to prevent Napoleon from making a comeback in France. But the great powers had agreed upon the principle of joint intervention. But of course as far as Britain was concerned, this could only be intervention against France. And what you tend to see happen is not so much joint intervention after eighteen er fifteen or eighteen eighteen. You tend to see individual intervention. Erm Austria in Italy. France in Spain. Russia in Greece. And of course, ironically the western powers Britain involves herself in Portugal. Britain involves herself in Greece. So Britain intervenes as well. Even though she was hostile to intervention erm you know erm by by say er France in Spain or whatever. Yeah? So we get a strange paradoxical situation developing. So is it like, somebody could erm I mean work against France in that situation ? In that well yeah I mean in a sense er that's right because if you think about it, in eighteen in eighteen fifteen er the great powers stayed in existence mainly because of a fear of a of of fear of France. Yeah? Erm and er that's what, that was the cement which held them together. When when that's no longer perhaps valid, then the powers have got their erm, have got, have got their own interests to pursue. Erm It all gets mixed up of course because there's, there's there's erm erm Russia which is seen as a power, you know the reactionary power. A power which is concerned with the threat of revolution in Europe. Russia intervenes to help revolutionaries in Greece. So it's ironic, you know, you do get this paradox. But wasn't that cos er it was only Turkey's revolt though? Well yeah but it was still, it was, I mean don't forget and it it it's perhaps a point you know, erm a valid point. The Greek revolts which had been going on since the early eighteen twenties. The Greek revolt was seen by European liberals who in a sense might be having a hard time of it in in, in those years. The Greek revolt was seen as a symbolic er event as well as just an anti Turkish er erm uprising. Erm and that's why you do get erm er European liberals going over to Greece to support the er er the Greek revolutionaries. Yeah but Russia didn't case Russia intervened as a pro-liberal thing. It's like No. But nevertheless the intervention was there. Yes so And I mean it was er I accept that it's hardly that that Russia perhaps was intervening in the interests of er of of erm of of of of er Russian policy in that area. But erm but the fact of the matter was,which whichever way you look at it, Russia was supporting essentially a liberal nationalist revolt. Couldn't you say that about the British in Portugal? Yeah but Britain Britain ideologically at least well I'm I'm not sure about that. I mean er Britain, Britain was er er er Britain's concerns out there were to maintain British influence in the area. Yeah? Erm it so happened that that the group that that Britain was supporting perhaps were constitutionalists although Canning was almost erm was always rather scathing about how liberal they were and how constitutionalist they were. So is it almost like this thing which is like by by chance? . Possibly so, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Erm Okay so that's er that's some of the erm er major aspects of er of of the congress system. By the way, just getting back to these interventions. Erm er the intervention of France in Spain. Er France interv intervened in Spain initially to put down a liberal revolt. Ironically because you know French public opinion was very hostile to that intervention. Ironically in many respects the French intervention paved the way for the success of the liberals in Spain. It's a strange you know. It it it it's it is paradoxical. By the eighteen twenties perhaps the congress had become somewhat er divisive. Possibly it was increasing tension between the great powers, the congress system. Was that in ? I'm suggesting that by perhaps the eighteen twenties the congress system was becoming somewhat divisive. Yeah erm course the other problem the congress system had I suppose a te a a technical problem. There was no bureaucratic machinery erm er to support it. There was no kind of permanent congress house like you know, or congress building. Er and of course obviously there was no congress army. Perhaps it was over-ambitious. And again I I suppose though its main problem was the the the misunderstandings or the er different interpretations er that the great powers had. Notably of course between Britain and the other powers. Couple of other points about the erm er er about the er Vienna settlement in general. Let me erm, let me refer to erm the holy alliance erm people I'm sure will come across this in their in their reading. The holy alliance. It was established in September eighteen fifteen. Erm it Sorry. When was it established? September eighteen fifteen. It it it came from an initiative by Tzar Alexander. It was signed erm er it was signed er first by Austria, Prussia and Russia. And in a sense the holy alliance came to be seen as representing their interests. ie anti-liberalism anti-nationalism. Why it was called the holy alliance was because erm er the signatories agreed that they would er, that they would rule their states and treat er er policy erm er according to christian principles. They would, they would rule their states and conduct policy according to christian principles. Interestingly all erm er most of the European powers came to sign this erm It wasn't, it wasn't as ex . It wasn't exclusive like the quadruple alliance of eighteen fifteen. There's a couple of points er er perhaps worth making about it. Er Britain didn't sign it. Britain refused to sign it. It would seem that Tzar Alexander was sincere in in his er in his notions of christian brotherhood and principles. Erm it's been er it's been suggested as well that in some extent it reflects the religious revival in Europe that that that that was taking place. Erm I think you know it's was one of the cliches of history that er that that intellectual movements developed counter-intellectual movements and even while one intellectual movement is fading out like the er er it's counter is rising. And if we can put this into simplistic erm er er nay almost Mickey Mouse terms that the enlightenment was based upon rationalism. Erm er er cosmopolitan attitudes and such like and in the enlightenment was a strong very very strong element of of opposition to religion erm and traditional religious beliefs. Ironically erm er er erm even towards the end of the eighteenth century you see some of the revival of religion. And and and romanticism which is seen as the as the movement which replaces the enlightenment in a sense. There's a very strong religious tinge er er to this and it's argued that the holy alliance is perhaps an expression of of a significant religious revival that's going on erm in Europe in the early nineteenth century. Erm amongst intellectuals er Er there's one there've been suggestions made about the holy alliance. Britain was very suspicious of it. Because of course erm ah well which European leader could not sign the holy alliance? For a very obvious reason. Don't forget that the holy alliance erm enjoined it's signatories to to to conduct their affairs on christian principles. Oh Turkey Erm obviously the, presumably the Sultan of Turkey as a, as erm as a Muslim could not be expected to sign the holy alliance. And there was a suspicion in Britain that it was all a bit of a plot to er to kind of isolate Turkey. And sort of exclude Turkey from European er consideration. It it would be, in a sense it was leading to a kind of psychological isolation of Turkey. And there was this view in Britain that maybe it was some kind of Russian er you know that it was a Russian manoeuvre. A tsarist manoeuvre to isolate Turkey. Erm Metternich interestingly Metternich er later regarded the er holy alliance as meaningless. Metternich said that he signed it to please the Tsar. Erm and yet perhaps erm it's . Perhaps it was important erm because as as as erm, as I'm I'm fond of saying that in history perhaps what you believe is more important than what actually happened. And the holy alliance became part of, in a sense, liberal demonology. To European liberals the holy alliance was a sinister plot directed against the liberals. Okay. So er a few other little aspects of the er of of er the congr of of of the holy all of of of the er Vienna settlement which is sometimes underplayed. Er the Vienna settlements er contained other elements. For instance it agreed to abolish the slave trade. At the Vienna settlement the great powers, all the great powers agreed to take no further part in the slave trade. They agreed to abolish it. Erm various trade agreements were made. Er the river Danube was largely erm erm er largely became a kind of er free trade river. You know it was bombing through all these different boundar er different boundaries. There was the freeing up of trade on the Danube. Erm So there were try er we we might describe some of the elements in the Vienna settlement as confidence building measures. Erm attempts at international a a greater international economic co- operation. So maybe we shouldn't be er er so quick as to er just er erm dismiss er the Vienna settlement entirely. Right I'll be back in a tick. Just want to say a couple of Right. Erm if you check with the er, if you check with the erm handout on you know er the the topic areas. Erm what we've been dealing with on Vienna is dealt with in section forty six reaction and revolution in Europe. What I'll erm, what I'll do next week on this is a rather problematic topic this one erm it's in the general section. And there's an overlap with with question twenty six, French history eighteen fifteen to seventy one. Erm er I'll try to deal with the erm it's it's very very difficult to separate these topics out and and teach that one as a topic in, in a sense. What I'll do next week erm we'll perhaps through concentrating on France we'll do a quick gallop through Europe eighteen erm about eighteen fifteen to forty eight. And I'll focus in on the eighteen thirty and forty eight revolutions. But that will involve erm erm er France. Now erm more to the point and I'll erm I'm reminding myself here. I haven't set any essays on Napoleon have I? No. Erm Didn't you? Oh No? No. You said you weren't going to. Well why on earth should I say that. I dunno. It's, I thought it was odd when you said it . It's a major topic. It's question twenty four on the old er topic list. I will, I'll set essays on Napoleon on erm on er on next time we meet on Monday. Erm And let me remind everybody because I don't intend erm erm er waiting for for people to cough up on this so I would like to remind people to get, it it's the thirteenth today. So I want, I'd like everybody's erm payment for the conference thing next week if poss. How much is it? How much is what? No the rail, I'll check that out today or tomorrow and I'll be able to say, to say on Monday. But I'll let, let's imagine for the moment that it's still that six fifty. So we're looking at we're looking at nine fifty. Let's call it ten quid. if the rail fare's gone up as I expect it may well have done. So do you want the rail fare money next week as well? Erm Might as well. No I don't need the rail, I don't the rail money in er Cos I presume if you pay the seven quid you'll be more or less committed then to paying the I'll I'll get the rail money a bit later than . Is it a Wednesday? Erm It's a Thursday. It's Thursday the nineteenth of March. Normal time. What about five o'clock? About fiveish. No, come on Peter. No you're not supposed to have that. Come on. Give that to mummy. Thank you. Thank you. Oh and you've got a pen too! Oh right. Come on. No you be good boy. No look. Here you are, look. Play with your rattle. There, you play with your rattle. There! There, don't you want that? You play with that. Be a good boy. Mummy's just getting your banana ready. Alright, won't be a minute. Alright poppet. Mummy's coming. There! Alright? Come on. Alright? Give mum her paper back. banana? There. Yummy yummy yummy. Yummy yummy yummy. That nice? Is that nice? There, you like banana. Yeah. You do. You like it. Oh dear. Nasty. Mummy get your medicine. Come on Peter. Peter! Come on. Be a good boy. Ooh Yeah. Come on then. Here you are. Peter. Peter! Come on. Peter. I'll just switch that television off and you might pay some attention. Come on. Come on. Mm yummy! Is that nice? That nice? Yeah. Come on then, good boy. Here you are, Peter. Yes. I know. Yes. Ooh. Here you are then. Here you are. Mm yummy. Mm. What are you saying eh? What are you saying? Mm? Their electric bill was sky high. I didn't . It was on Well it might have been the the gas bill because er you know what she's like with the central heating. Yeah. Both. Yeah. I think he used to pay all the Yeah, I think he did. Out of the business. through the business. Yeah. And now, now they've come to realize that he's only on a wage, he's on a bloody good wage and all. Mm yeah. Right? And they have grandad's money. That buys all the bloody food. Well it's his pension isn't it? Yeah. All he lives on is his personal pension. What, from the gas board? Yeah. That's what he lives on. And if he ever wants to buy anything Yeah. Mm. So basically I reckon they're gonna be in the shit. Because er no mum was saying er they should be out enjoying theirselves, not having to stay in paying all this. Well I mean it's their decision wasn't it? Yeah. They Now they've come to realize what it's like. Well I know she had to pay her poll tax didn't she? Down at Yeah. Barnet. Yeah that was a month's wages, nearly. Well a good part of it anyway. She can't clear much money. I reckon she must get home, take home about eighty quid a week or something. About hundred quid a week. Yeah well no that's not bad money for a woman Yeah. working er what she's doing. Yeah. Just started and all. Not very good wages are they? No I know. In there. Poor wages. Poor payers I mean. Yeah. Oh well they'll just have to steady down won't they? And I can see it in a year I I'll give it, give dad er about eighteen months Yeah. and he'll be wanting to leave Avenue Panels Yeah. It'll come too much. Then he'll wanna form a partnership. Well you're not gonna I don't think, no No. No I wouldn't No. I'm happy as I am. No cos I'll have to see what it's like down the road. If it's got room for expansion which I'm hoping then, I would say yeah because dad's got a good reputation. Yeah but what could he do? I mean what's he gonna be like in a couple of years time? He might say oh he Don't know. But he's not bad at spraying. He's a good sprayer. Oh but that's the whole reason he stopped, because he couldn't That's right. cope with it. The only thing the old man could do was spray. He couldn't every time he undid bolts like and if they were tight, he couldn't do them. Cos you've got to and he can't use his fingers and if he has to it right? And ea each knock he used, used to be in agony. Like if he was hitting something and he accidentally hit his ha his thumb or his finger he used to be in agony for I mean it used to hurt him for the rest of the day. Mm. You know? Mm. Whereas if I hit me hand you know, okay it hurts but it's gone in five minutes. If I keep, keep hitting it like I did the other day when my brother was there me thumb and that, oh boy! I mean it was Yeah. swollen. Yeah. I remember that. You showed it me. Yeah. That's cos I kept hitting it, bloody . But I could, I can hack the pain. Yeah. And that's the difference you see, it was gone day but dad's is not. If he'd have kept hitting it like I h I hit mine no way. Yeah I know. He's I mean he, he just wouldn't be able to er contribute enough. I don't think. He wouldn't be able to you know, okay he'd probably potter about on a restoration job but I mean that's not They're good payers, restoration jobs. Well yeah, but I mean it's not providing half the business is it? Res restoration job you're talking er if you actually work on a vehicle a week, talking five hundred quid a week. Yeah. So I mean I I just couldn't I mean that's two grand a month. see him being able to do the work. No but then you've gotta guarantee that you've got restoration jobs. That's it. Yeah. They've got to be guaranteed work like one after the other. Think they're just gonna have to cut back. Oh yeah. They probably will do cos I mean your mum'd save a lot of money if she found a l job locally where she didn't have to travel. Yeah. Oh yeah. Go on the bus. I mean it must, well she must spend ten quid a week on bus fares. Oh easily. Easily I'd say. Yeah. But she's got all that way to walk. That's why she ought to learn to drive. If she drove she'd save money that way. Okay you've got to fork out insurance and er petrol. It'd be a lot cheaper. But in that sense she can use the car on her own. She can go out shopping. Well she could take the . Dad doesn't use it does he? That's it yeah, the useless bloody thing. Can you imagine him letting her use it? He'd have a fit. You'd love 's motor. His granny Brilliant. What? John 's granny. Yeah. Oh, top of the range weren't it? Oh! Did you phone up that garage? Yeah. Yeah? It's er four speed gearbox. It's got a broken er ignition it's broken in two. But they imagine that would be er replaced. Erm dunno what the mileage is like. Rust's supposed to be not too bad. Er that's about it really. Mm. He didn't know much about it. The bloke I spoke to. Really? Must be a fairly new garage cos I've never heard of them before. I've never seen them advertised before. No I haven't. I dunno. Er I'll go and do this stuff and er You gonna pop down the shop for me then? Yeah. Yeah I'll take Do you want dumplings? Yeah, can do. You've got steak and kidney. Ugh. Oh great! What are you having? oh no, I just pick out the kidneys. Do you? Well give me the kidney then. Yeah. You should make some pies out of it or something. Steak and kidney pie. Can't you smell it? Smell it. Kidney. Not really. Thursday used to be a good night in the paper for motors. Look at it, there's here. No it's Friday. Friday night paper Friday now is it? yeah, er for cars. Dad said he's given us er some phone numbers. Well he hasn't given me them, they're at work. What for? People who deal with motors. Yeah. So I might get er What did you tell him what we're after? Yeah. What did he say, what do you want one of them for? No. Didn't he? I want a, I want a station waggon but it'll have to be a Ford, personally. Mm. But if a cheap, real cheap motor comes along, a Peugeot or something, I'll buy it. If it's the right price. Well Peugeot I mean you're talking a hell of a lot for spares. Yeah I know so, that's the problem you see. Fords Yeah. I get twenty five percent discount. So But you know 's Peugeot That's why I want a Ford. Yeah. Peugeot. The heat surge grill thing in the car had broken and you couldn't just buy a n individual switch you er had to buy the whole thing and it was Yeah. over fifty quid. Oh yeah I'm not surprised. For a bit of plastic. Yeah. Yeah but I get a good I get a good say that again. I get a good discount with er Renault Peugeot. ? Yeah. Yeah Renaults I get a very good discount. Who gives you that then,Somervilles No no, I get it up . somewhere like that. They're a main discounters. Oh yeah I remember your dad saying. No I don't deal with er Somervilles. He gets more discount than . Yeah. Yeah they phoned up last week. Or at the beginning of this week. Mm. You haven't used us for a while. I said no, I ain't had no motors in of your type. Oh what'd she say? Says oh that's fair enough then innit? I said yeah. How's business? Said oh it's doing alright thanks. I said how's your business? Oh pretty quiet. I said oh that's good then innit? Yeah? They're alright. Most of the people are alright. Yeah. I suppose they have to check up on Make sure you're still alive Yeah. Escort estate seventy quid. Seventy quid? Oh that'll be real crap. Oh an old one . Yeah. Er spare, short tax no M O T. Mini automatic here. That's what mum wants. Your mum's got hasn't she? So Yeah. She'd probably have some lessons but she can't afford it. Oh here's some better prices I said I'd sit with her. There's a Sierra here, eighty three. Twelve months' M O T, taxed, very good condition. Good reason for sale. Seven hundred and eighty quid. Mm. Sierra two litre ghia. Nineteen eighty three. Two months' tax, M O T. Got condition. Mm. Sounds ominous. Yeah. One thousand three hundred and fifty. Yeah respray . Dad said if you go looking for a motor got a magnet at work, take that with you. Yeah, good idea innit? Yeah well . That's the only problem with buying it, well I suppose it's any, dodgy any secondhand car really isn't it? Oh yeah yeah. If it's more than a few years old. Cortina two litre G L auto. Ten months' M O T, excellent all round condition. Any trial. Four hundred and ninety five pound. No, bugger all in here. Do you have a look at mother and baby? Nothing? No. Always the bloody same. No, there's not even anything in erm appliances, anything like that. No? Yeah. Oh I'll go and do this stuff. Did you get a bill in today? No. Didn't get any post. No, no bills? Good. No post. Good. No post is good news. As far as I'm concerned. Yeah . It's always bloody bills. Pardon? Shut the door. No, it's, it's not that cold. Do you wanna cup of tea or d'y we have it when you come back? Yeah you could have a go. I won't be a long. Right. Okay. So how was Ron at work? Was he alright? Yeah. So how many days do you owe him for? Paid him. You've paid him? What with? Is he going on Saturday night? Yeah. Is Tracey going? No. Why? Er she can go if she gets a babysitter. Ah! Oh dear. Do you think she wants to go? More than likely, yeah. Rob's not gonna He's going, definitely. He said I don't go out very often been out. I says yeah I says I'm in the same boat. I said I don't go out very often. It's nice when you do get out. How old's their little boy? Two? Three? Three I think. Yeah. Yeah. Er I said er Lisa'd like to go out but er she don't feel like it these days. We haven't been out together for ages. No. Well the last time we went out together was Yeah. And that was with Ann and John wasn't it? Yeah. Mm. Yeah and I went to that No, if you were feeling okay and wanted to go out we'd go out on Saturday night somewhere. Let's go out for a nice meal somewhere. We can't afford a meal. Well this is it . Could afford a few drinks but not a meal. No. Meal we can get at home. I know. It's nice to have somebody else to cook it. Oh yeah I know it is. I'm not this drink at the moment anyway. You don't want to do anything at the moment. No I'm sorry. put the ironing away yet. Done it all and still sits in the chair . Oh dear. It's getting it up the stairs isn't it? I think I've got to go into tomorrow. ? Yeah, in the high street. Yeah. I've gotta go down. bank ? Yeah. get some . Oh we need some bread as well. Get some bread? Are you alright for the morning? Yeah. No notes. No? Yeah well we got that lasagne I was going to do that for you today but Well I'll have to have some of your money then. So I can get some. Yeah. Otherwise cos I won't get any till dinner time you see. Mm. you were gonna have that lasagne anyway. Cos I would have done that for you today but Yeah. I didn't know what time you were coming home. Neither did I. We were gonna put it in the oven and just leave it there but it would Yeah. have dried up. Yeah. That's why I phoned up. So I had a couple of the beefburgers. Eh? I had a couple of the beefburgers. You had a couple? You've had some already? Yeah, I had some for my lunch. Oh. alright. You know like the ones your mum and dad had last few Yeah those ones. Quite nice. Not sure what meat they used in them. I don't know where my . here. It's a spare one. Oh, Anne was telling me she said er she went out last night and mum turned round and said to her now don't you be late home cos it's cold out there. Now you're not gonna be late home.. Oh is Clifford bring the wood round tomorrow? Yeah. What, in the morning or ? Where are you, where do you want it putting? Behind the shed. What the one that's up? Yeah. Yeah yes, alright. But away from the fence. Away from the fence? Okay. So I can get that other one up . Ooh. Suppose I ought to tell him that shouldn't I?be out and unlock the gate. Yeah. I should be in in the morning. Yeah? I suppose I'll stop here Saturday night. Anne wants to see if she can have Peter over the weekend sometime. She's gonna have a word with Kenny . Saturday. Yeah but if he's gonna come Saturday I mean we can hang on painting we? But if he's not gonna come I'll, we'll do it anyway. Yeah. Be nice if he could . Paddy was saying that all the club members were getting ten pound. Saturday night. Yeah? Yeah. So he must be doing well mustn't he? Unless there's something funny. Dunno. Cos she's wondering if he's gonna give her any spending money. He can buy me a bloody beer. Yeah. She said if he gives her fiver she'll throw it back in his face and say that's not enough . No. Yesterday. And I think she intends on having quite a few drinks. Oh no. You'll probably end up having to carry her home . Well her mum sent me so No it will say on the the actual you know the bottom bit on the other side. What bank, what clearing bank is it? Midland Bank. Yeah. Midland Bank no charge. As I say you'll probably be able to pay in at the Nat West cos you have got an account with them. wake up with wet dreams every morning . Oh dear, poor boy. Or wake up with a stalker Well you're just have to be patient won't you? Yeah I'm patient alright. I mean it's not very nice The only way to be. it's not very nice being pregnant actually. No,. I know I feel it with a belly. Well yeah you can feel the belly but you haven't got the actual feelings . Yeah. No I'm not designed to be pregnant I'm not. You're what sorry? Not designed to be pregnant. Yeah alright. All I know is I've lost me socks. on the stairs. The bottom of the stairs. They're not, I just looked. And your jumper, where you left them. Ooh. Oh Ooh. Have I got a clean jumper? Sorry? Yeah there's a clean one. That's something clean then. Thank you. Is that shirt not clean Oh actually no, I'll have that back. Oh! put on a clean pair clean pair of jeans. Yeah right. I'll erm I'll sling that lot over the stairs. It's heavy you know, carrying washing. Yeah. well take it in two piles like, you know what I mean? Oh no, then you've got to go up Take, take the stairs twice. That's three times. well take half of it down take half of it down I'm not going upstairs now. No, alright then. But when you go up to get Peter take some up with you. Right. Right? That saves you a journey dunnit? Yeah all up again. So each time you go up, take a bit with you. Yes sir. Suppose you ate all your peanuts last night? Yeah. That's probably why I want to go for a dump now. I'm busting to go. You're lucky, I haven't been for three days . Here. No . I don't know, it saves on toilet paper dunnit? It's when you feel it bunging up inside you. All you've gotta do is to sit on the bog and go oooaaah I don't think it would make any difference. I've tried that quite a few times, so fart. Yeah, I know. It was that cabbage. I thought I'd give us a bit of cabbage last night. Getting our roughage. thought the cauliflower would but no, not really. Oh well, gonna get the sack I am. Yeah well I mean boss ringing up, chasing after you. Yeah. Well he's al he's normally late anyway so Mm. dunnit? Ooh. Do you think I ought to put that teddy in his cot? Yeah. Well I've moved that mobile up the stairs down one. Yeah? So it can be used. So, I stripped the bed yesterday. Yeah I know. Yeah. He's totally wrecked it. Yeah I know. He'll probably wreck it again. Mm. He just fiddles around don't he? Wakes up Sorry? He wakes up and fiddles around doesn't he? Yeah. Well he moves around. It's quite funny actually. Ooh. Oh go away. Think I'll open the window. Good dear. Bit of fresh air didn't hurt anybody. Specially with that flying around. Oh dear. smell peanuts I think. Mm. Ooh. Ooh Yeah at least mine's only peanuts. Yours is everything. I know . Ooh. Lift your leg like a bloody dog. Disgusting. Still bloody well recording. Yeah. I think I'll have to abandon it with you around. Why? Why, ain't I supposed to mention it's recording or anything? You're supposed to be normal. I am normal. Open the window when you've finished. You listening? Er, so that's it really isn't it? Yeah. Do that insurance claim of mine. Get some money back. I was thinking about getting two sets of overalls. You might as well. One in the wash, one on. Yeah. all that Tippex Is this Tippex? Yeah What I've done is I've got extra extra large Mm. and er I've asked for the er extra length one. It's a tall length. Yeah. Right? Cos what I thought, if I had a bigger you can always turn, you can always turn them up for us sew them and all that. But at least I'd get the right size then. Yeah. Come on, let's have a look at you then. How are you? Are you better? Eh? Shall mummy wipe your face? Oh dear. Nasty cough. Nasty cough. Oh dear. Come on, let mummy wipe your face. There. Oh you want some of this do you? Here you are then. Here you are, you play with that then. No you can't have the whole roll. No, not the whole roll. No just that. How boring . Yeah. I know. Are you playing with that? Are you playing with the telephone? Eh? Are you? You on the telephone? Eh? Peter. Yeah. Eh. Are you playing with that? Yeah. Yeah? You are. What do you fancy for your breakfast? Bit of toast? Eh? Do you want some toast and marmite? Toast and marmite? Yeah. Oh. What are you saying ? Eh? Are you talking to mummy? Are you talking to me? Are you? Are you? Yes. Yes? What are you saying? What did you say? Say mum. Peter Peter mum mum say mum mum mum mum say mum say mum say mum Peter We'll go and get your medicine shall we?drop of medicine? That's your foot. Yeah it's your foot. Mummy go and get your medicine. There you are. Yeah, your medicine. You like this don't you? Mm. Yeah. Mm. There you go. Good boy. Oh dear. Bless you. Bless you. Oh dear. No no no no no no no. Yeah. There you go. Lovely. Shall we wipe your nose? You don't like that. No. all over your face, everywhere. Whoo! Yeah. Mm. Come on then. What's that? Is that a rabbit? It's a snail isn't it? A snail. You've got the wrong one. ? You can't be doing that, no. Here you are then. Peter. Mm. Lovely. No, you're not gonna have it. You're not quite big enough yet. No, cos you'll just throw it everywhere. And I'd rather you eat it than make a mess of it eh? You can have the bowl when it's empty. Yeah? oi. You can have the bowl when it's empty. Which I doubt very much. Here you are then. Snail. Peter. Good boy. Snail. Yeah. Snail that goes oh so slow. Peter! Good boy. Ooh! Oh you're quite enjoying this this morning aren't you? Decided against the toast. bit of Weetabix. Here you are then. Here you are. Mm. Mummy hasn't had her breakfast yet. Yeah. There, is that good? That good? Ooh let's wipe your nose again. Ugh! Alright. I'm only wiping your nose. You noisy monkey. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Come on. Your mummy's got a cough too. We're a right pair aren't we? Yes, we are. We are. Yes. Ooh. Mm. Yes. Mm. Yes come on Peter. Peter. Been a good boy, you've nearly eaten it all. Here you are. Come on. One more spoonful. Come on. Peter. Peter! Good boy. Mm. Open wide, there. Yeah. Here you are then. Yes, very good. We're gonna have to wash your face. I think we will. I think it's filthy. What were you doing last night in bed, eh? Peter. Come on. Good boy. There. Nearly finished. Nearly finished. Oh dear. Oh dear. Oh dear. There. Come on. Come on. Alright, we'll leave that then shall we? Shall we leave that? Or do you want some more? Try again. No you don't want it. Alright then. Mummy go and get your milk then. Alright? Mummy get your milk. He liked that. There you are. You gonna hold it? Are you gonna hold it? I doubt it. No . You like mummy to hold it don't you? Oh you old boozer. Ah. Let's wipe your face. Come on. Good boy. There you are. Do you want some more? I think you'd rather be playing with everything wouldn't you? Yeah. Alright then? Where are you going? Eh? Are you after that snail again? Are you? Are you after the snail? Ooh. Oh you're comical. Did you slip, right? You want to get up again? Well you have to get yourself up. Can you get yourself up? Oh pardon! Where you going ? Hey where you going? Hey where you going? You don't know. You're making a mess on mummy's nice clean floor. Yes. You don't care though do you? Hey? Hey? You don't care? Come on then, you hold mummy's hand. Eh? Now where are you going? Come on then. Come on. Ooh way up! Whoo! Come on, you have to go forward. Go forward. Whoo! Oh dear!hold your hands up . Come on. One two three four. One two three four. You wanna go backwards now don't you? What are you doing? Oh dear! You're funny. Are you funny? I think you are, aren't you? Eh? Now what are you gonna do? Eh? Now what are you gonna do? Yeah. You used to really like them, you did. When you were little. Eh? You did. So you managed to get everything done? Yeah, I paid the er . Mm. Er for er .. yeah. Erm given him twenty quid. That was right wasn't it? Dunno, yeah. Where, where is it? In there. in there? Thank you. was it twenty or twenty five? I think it was just twenty wasn't it? Ooh I don't know . I'd like some money. How much money you got left? What are you smiling at? Have you got something to tell me? The tape recorder's on! Don't slap your leg . All the dust came out. You've got some clean jeans. No don't cos it's him! Yeah I'll put some clean jeans on. I've done all the dusty work. Looked a right state going in I tell you. I bet you did. Still your painting It's done. Apparently the er dust, filler dust Yeah. that er when you breathe it down right, it goes in your lungs, it doesn't shift. It stays there. Mm. It doesn't go. It'll stay there for the rest of your life. That's why a lot of people suffer illnesses. Mm. Yeah, did you wear a mask? Yeah, oh yeah yeah. Always have done. Yeah. Every now and then I never used to. Always wear a mask. That might be one reason why I suffer a bit of asthma now. Aggravation. It might be, yeah. You never know. Yeah with the dust Yeah. You ain't half looking at me ain't you? So what else did they have to say? Did they ask how Peter was or not? Yeah, they asked er how you were. Mm? And er asked me when it was due. And I said er er Peter was born in Ju June and the next one's due in July the tenth. And Tish went bloody hell! Went bloody hell! as if poor girl! I went yeah, poor girl. You are giving me a look ain't you babe? Eh? You are. He's getting all excited. Let me go and make you a cup of tea. Yeah, cheers. Do you want the fire on? Sorry? I'll get the fire going. Whee! Amuse your son. Yeah, I am. Oh me tits! Ow! You're not after my glasses are you? Oh no. Ow! Me nipple. Ah! You're hurting me mate. Once upon a time there were three bears. Mama bear, papa bear, baby bear. They all went for a walk down the woods. They did, yeah. Alright old Goldilocks she stumbled across the house. Whoops, oh look, there's a house. Oh yeah . Ooh they've got some soup on the table. Yeah. So she ate all the soup Actually it was porridge. Alright, porridge then. Whatever. Yeah he don't mind. He don't care. Ow! No, he don't care. squeezing me nipples. Ain't you babe, eh? Oh you've got a little cross-eyed you are. His left eye? Yeah. Mm. It looks slightly Yeah. But like said when she tested him, she said it's erm Just a weak eye. Ah! Ah! He uses it. If it's er a proper squint are you listening? If it's a proper squint they don't use it. They don't seem to use it. Yeah. Yeah, he likes up nose. Pick your nose mate. Ow! Ow. That hurt. He'll soon be howling. Let me get to him. He loves it. I don't. So. You're not the one who's being chucked up in the air. You'll give me a heart attack. What's your daddy doing to you? You liked that didn't you. No, don't do it. Eh? He was chewing his toes this morning. You're getting a bit big to stand on daddy. He was, he was chewing his toes. Was he? Yeah. Good. You were chewing your toes were you? Yeah cos he was going blah blah. He was screwing his face up but he was still doing it. No. No. No. No! Battle of wits this is. I think you're gonna lose. No. No. He's laughing. He thinks it's a game you see . No you cannot have me glasses. Two-eyed git. Eh? No. No. Well if you take them off and then they won't be out will they? There, that fooled you. He's staring at me now. Now he's trying to grab them . He's trying to grab you. Didn't you mate, eh? Didn't you? Just be thankful you haven't got longer hair, I'm telling you. Yeah. There's method in my madness. Do you erm have we got another bill in yet? What electric? No we've had a bill from the council. That bill. Oh we've got a bill you see. Yeah . Let's have a look then. It's twenty one pounds. It doesn't say when it's supposed to be paid by so I think we might forget it for now. Don't you? Bags of rubbish from the ga there weren't no bags of rubbish in the garden. No there wasn't. No I know. I think, well we'll hang on to it and then they can send us a reminder can't they? Yeah. It's normally thirty days. It doesn't say anything on there. No they don't. That's what I was looking at. No. Might get the business to pay for it. was it? No. They're tricky bastards, they really are. I don't like them. The council are a nuisance. They are really. What can you do? Your brother's brought the wood. Oh he has has he? Yeah. How much? A fiver. how much was how much was there there? Oh it's quite a bit. I haven't you know cos it wasn't very nice when he brought it. He was gonna stack it over this side. Yeah? But I said no, cos we don't it yet. I said we want it behind the shed. But whether they've actually put it behind the shed or what I don't know. Well I hope they have. I'd better go and have a look. Well that's where you told me to tell him to put it, behind the shed. I said the back of the shed. At the back? The other side, not behind. No yeah you said the back. Yeah. And away from the fence. I dunno. Away from the fence! Yeah I'm sure it's alright. You shouldn't take him out there. He's alright, only for a quick second. Alright. Is that alright, where it is? Not much. Sorry? not much. It's pretty good wood though I think. I think your brother wa he was slightly worried about the amount he could take in his car. Thought he said something about the suspension. Oh what! Gonna say I shall tell him, don't seem much there mate. Mm oh. Pop down myself. Probably . I could get that in my boot. I didn't look. You know I just sort of Yeah. At that particular point he was whingeing away so How's the dinner? I don't know. I'll go and check. That Dave's a funny old chap isn't he? Yeah. Didn't say much. Didn't he? No. Mm, I think we're warm enough now. Just burnt me finger. Do you wanna put him in his walker? Yeah. Please. No it's not all ? Yeah it's not all done. This is your daddy's. Mummy's gonna do yours next. Expectant look on his face . I think you'd be Yeah. minus your lunch if er somebody had his way. I won't switch the oven off just in case. Try a bit from the middle first can you? It's hot. Is that alright? I'll switch the oven off then. Oh do you want any bread or is that alright? Yeah, do us some bread. New loaf. How many slices? Just one. Oh. I'll stick to one. Oh. You can have the crust. No thanks. Oh. Alright. Best bit of the bread. Oh it's massive. Do you pick these loaves or do they feel sorry for you when they give them to you? Feel sorry for me. bread there. Oh I see that. I'm surprised I'm allowed to touch the loaf. I am. It's fresh anyway. It's really fresh isn't it? Is that alright? Examining it! Is it alright? Oh I can't cut bread. You know me dear. You should be able to. What do you mean? Used to have er fresh loaves all the time. When? When you lived with the old man. Well it used to last a day if that, and I never used to cut any of it. He used to eat it all. What a loaf of bread a day? Yeah I know. Shit. It was only at weekends. Yeah he used to have a whole loaf on a Saturday. Oh my Peter. He's smiling. Yeah a whole loaf he used to eat, himself. No. No. Come on. This way round. Good boy. Mummy get your lunch. You've got stew and dumpling. No, not you. I don't know what you've got for your dinner. That's a point, I haven't done any I haven't got anything out. That's a point. Didn't you? Sausages? Mm. Yeah. If you want eggs you'll have to go and get some from Ann. Yeah I know cos this morning. We've gotta get some eggs haven't we? Yeah. I'll pop up and get them. Oh alright. Alright, come on then bustle, let's get Burgers. What? Get a couple of burgers out. You can cook them from frozen. They won't take long to defrost. Alright. Okay. Okay dear. Whatever you say. Oh a bit of kidney. Ugh. So are you coming straight home tonight? Yeah. I didn't know whether you might stop off at the pub or something. I didn't Eh? didn't know whether you might stop off at the pub. Come on you. Oh. out tomorrow aren't I? Yeah, true. Some people have got their washing out you know. Eh? Some people have got their washing out. Yeah, it'll dry. It's not raining. That's it. It goes like this and then it'll cloud over and rain. I thought about it then I thought no, it's not worth it. Better wait until the dries first. Put it out . Yeah. Mm. Hello poppet. You laughing at? Gotta pen? Yeah, yeah. That's a bill. Oh don't worry about that. Peter. Excuse me. Pardon. Did that taste alright, that lasagne? Yeah. Oh shut up . If we had a microwave it wouldn't be, would it? That's Oh god. We'd probably blow round the edges when I put in the freezer . Come to think of it, yeah Yeah. Somebody there I think might like a bit of that. You like lasagne don't you boy? Ooh. Yeah . Yeah, he's had a really good sleep actually. He went to sleep about half eleven. Yeah? Mm. He nearly managed to sit himself up Melvin. He sort of pulled backwards and hit that chair, got off that chair. And he was sort of he managed to get his legs round but he just couldn't quite get his body up to sit up. Come over here. Come over here mate. Here here boy. Woof woof. He's not a dog. So I don't think it'll be long before his crawling forwards. No, it won't take long. Bless his little cotton socks. Yeah that's you. slap your legs didn't you. Kick . Ooh. Mm left the window open. Dunno what I fancy for my lunch. Didn't have my breakfast till about ten o'clock. I didn't. What's been happening on here then? What? Neighbours. Oh you didn't see it did you? Oh erm Marie's had er a letter from her supposed parents. And there at her house now. With them. Mm. Because they'd already warned, they've already warned her about you know sort of con people and you know Yeah. people just sort of out to get a quick buck. So Alright baby, do you wanna drop of milk? Eh? No you have to wait for your lunch. Ooh! Mummy's just got a broken neck. He's ever so thirsty. I think it might be the medicine he's on. But I practically filled that this morning. Come on then. Ah! So is Robin at work today or not? What? Is Robin at work today or not? Alright. Yeah. Well I dunno. Mm? Mm. red nose. No you're not drinking mummy's tea. You don't like my tea, it's got no sugar in it. Come to think of it, has daddy's got any sugar in it? I don't know. You'll have to try it . Having a bit of trouble? What? He looked like a cow chewing a piece of grass. There. Here you are, give us your plate love. Erm beefburger, sausage Egg bacon chips beans Well if you have bacon now you won't be able to have it at the weekend. Well alright, okay. Mushrooms. Right okay. We've got some mushrooms. Got some mushies. Legal ones I hope. Did you want mushrooms with it? Yes please. Good. And beefburger. I mean do you want beans? Beefburgers and sausages. Do you want eggs with it? Yeah. And egg. And chips. God. I don't know whether my brain can cope with all this. Aha. Oh yeah we've got a good few mushrooms there. Ah. Oh dear. Such is life. I feel so tired yet I've done nothing. I went over the shop this afternoon. That was an effort. Sorry? Take him Yeah well I wasn't gonna leave him here was I? Yeah. Bung him in the cot thing. He'd be alright. No, I wouldn't do that. No I wouldn't do that. I wouldn't. No I'd never be able to forgive myself if anything happened would I? Eh? Oh is it. Mm. So was the record in the charts? Yeah, he's released it. Oh no! The old Alice Cooper song. Postman Pat . Oh dear. Oh I dunno. ? Oh I don't think there is any. Haven't had time. What have you been doing Melvin? I ain't talking cos you've got that bloody thing on. Well, you just won't have to talk to me then will you? Eh? I think we're gonna have to put these vegetables up on a up higher. Yeah. Cos I'm having a job bending down. Put them on the washing machine. That's a good idea. Then they'll all shake off when it spins . We'll have potatoes the kitchen. Different. Do you mind if I sit down and drink my tea?start tea. Course you can sit down. Well I didn't know whether you were starving starving starving. I'm always bloody starving. get rid of Why don't you like them? I do. awkward sometimes. Oh god. So ? Yeah. No I mean he didn't want his erm milk at tea time. Oh yeah. He nearly weeed all over me. Did he? He nearly got me this afternoon. You have to watch him. I know you do. didn't get me. Get anywhere else? His own nappy. He went He's been watching his old man. He's quite funny. Did he flick it? Cos he normally flicks it. No, no he scraped along with his right ball. Oh no, he's quite funny. But you can usually tell when he's going to. Cos it sort of slightly old boy he was going . slightly swells. Yeah. Was he? You can just see at the end you know at the end, it fills like a, a little little splodge of wee. Oh look! That's brilliant. Have you seen one of them? No. Oh god, how many's he got? Oh no, he's gotta be joking! I didn't realize you could still, you could buy them. Yeah. Mm. Love it. Oh you've got cats now. ? Yeah. Yeah. they? No. Did er Pin. Mm I don't know where the pins are. Trying to think. Well I can give you a nappy pin. Eh? A nappy pin be alright? Yeah, that'll do. I only wanna The other thing he likes, he loves that kitchen roll. Yeah I know. He shreds it. Have you seen him when he does it? So intense. Yeah the old motor's alright. Yeah it's just conking out. Keep the choke out all the time. Oh dear. I see why you get tired sitting here. Why? The fire. You want to swap seats I sit over there. Yeah. No I feel tired anyway. If I sat there at night Yeah. Oh dear. I ought to get some vegetables today I suppose. Microphone's on here. Yeah I know. Attached permanently by a nappy pin. Yeah. Mm. try and get the Is your dad coming up? No. Oh. So your mum's got her wish then? Yeah well they're going down south Yeah. Chelmsford Hooray. That's unusual. asking, she said oh what about erm grandma? Does she take an interest in what we're doing like the decorating and stuff? No. Nothing. She, she hasn't even offered any help? I said no. I said too interested in their own. The only thing she offers is sort of help with Peter but that's because she wants Peter. Not because she wants to help us. I thought she was supposed to have him at the beginning of this month. Twenty eight isn't it? Yeah. the end of this month. Yeah. beginning or the end. I don't know. It depends on Diane you see. And Louise. Well can you imagine what's gonna happen? Don't really want him to go. It's be chaotic round there. Yeah. Well no even his mum, you know they can't cope with two. brother will let Jade go. He probably won't let Jade go cos of the dog. Mum can have the baby and Ann can have Peter. they'll both have both. They can share. One has him Friday and Saturday and one has him Sunday and Monday. That means they'll have to communicate. Well communicate don't they?to talk. I'm not having them stuff up my plans. Well Sharne'll have them. Sharon can have them. It'd be easier if Sharne did. Wouldn't it? I don't mind. Why should , why shouldn't Annie and me mum? It's different cos we wanna go away. No Ann would have him the whole time. Yeah well Your mum wouldn't. No I know. Have him for Thursday night. Thursday night Friday night Saturday night Sunday night, four nights. Mm. three in the morning or something when we get there. Wherever we're gonna go. I hate you and your travelling plans because they all get I ain't travelling any plans. Not making, I'm not making any You are. Three o'clock in the bloody morning. Well it's the best time to go. and I'll drive. You can drive. I know. Saves messing around with bloody road traffic. Oh well when you're planning to go there won't be that much road traffic. So, yeah . Get out. Open the window. Mm. Cornwall. Yeah I've noticed. I can't remember. I've, I've been to Cornwall but I was so small. It's great down there. really loved it. Oh I remember, yeah, when you went. Yeah that's right. Mm. That's why you slept in a field? Yeah. Woke up the next morning . We knew it it was a long way down but . Bloody right at the top we were. like that. Mm. Oh god. Yeah. He said shit, glad I never drove the car down there. We'd have never got it back out. Junior's awake. Ooh. Mm, won't be long. How many weeks am I now? Twenty four? Twenty three? Mm, must be. Twenty four weeks. You're nearly there. half way. Yeah. Soon be viable. Yeah. Twenty six weeks aren't I? Twenty eight. No it's twenty six, twenty eight is six months. Twenty eight. You have abortion up to twenty eight weeks don't you? Yeah but it's viable. The foetus is viable at twenty six weeks. Yeah?abortion. No, they wouldn't do it. No . Unless there's some medical reason, serious medical reason, they wouldn't do it. Wouldn't have it done at this stage anyway. No. No it would be awful. Be so traumatic for them cos you can actually feel the baby moving Yeah, that's what I mean. from inside you. There's obviously reasons why. Yeah. Mm gosh, we're early this morning. Yeah, I've gotta don't wanna be there all day. Oh yeah. Have you left a lighter behind? No. Oh you're not Yes. Got me keys? What keys? Oh your car keys. I suppose they're in my coat pocket. Or your coat pockets dear. Ta. See you later. medicine. Oh you What? The tape was on my Oh I can hear it. You normally move your head away from me. got any medicine or not. Pardon? Playing with your feet? Are you? What shall we have for your breakfast today? Yeah what do you fancy? You'll make a mess whatever you have won't you? Here you are, have a drink. Here you are. Have a drink. Oh come here. Snotty nose. Alright? Better get you something to play with then. Then we'll see what we can rustle up for breakfast. Right? Ooh look at this? Yeah. Something for you to make a lot of noise with. Your favourite. Erm Where you going ? Hey? Toast and marmite be alright for you? Eh? Oh you're coming back now are you ? Oh go on then. Alright? Mummy's got it all under control. Yeah, toast and marmite. You're supposed to eat them. You're not supposed to play with them. That's it. Bit hard that bit? Try that one. Pardon. Try that bit. Or don't you want to? Here you are, there's a piece there. Let mummy give it to you. That's noisy. Ah. Mm. No mummy doesn't want it. No. You can have yours. That's it, you can do it. Go on then. Eat up. Eat up. What's that? A car with a noisy exhaust pipe. Yeah, car. Eat that piece. No that piece is better. That's the crust babby so that's a bit hard. Mm, bit hard. Yeah? Come on look, have a piece of this then. Ta. Ta. Peter. Ta. Here you are then. Mm you've got fluff and everything on that one. Oh lovely. No, where are you going? No, come on. Sit back. No you're not moving anywhere. Mm ta. Ta. Ta. Good boy. Thank you. Thank you. Mm. Oh! Breaking the bread now, alright. Here you are. Oh you've put the plate upside down, alright. Wheey up! Oh dear. What a mess. All the crumbs, oh dear. a bath after all this. Let's look what the postman's brought us. Shall we? Thanks for the birthday present. Was it alright? Yeah. I didn't know whether it would be but I thought, well you could go down and change it. Yeah. Yeah it's alright. Jade loved it. I thought she might you know? Yeah we did sort of point p sort of pr pressing, but She needs Yeah. Yeah. She liked the noise it made. Cos got it up on the side and he hadn't showed her and he was just pressing oh what's that I was dying to open it to see what noise it made but you should have opened it. No I didn't try. No Did nanny and granddad come up and see her? Quarter past eight. and she was in bed. It's pathetic , they know she goes to bed about half past seven. Yeah. So they said where is she then? Well she's in bed. We'd kept her up till quarter to eight and she was knackered. You'd never think they had children of their own. No. No we couldn't get earlier. But they ain't got no commitments I mean what were they doing ? Till ten past eight. They have fish and chips Friday nights for christ sake. Fish and chips they have. So she ain't gotta . Fish and chips they have. Oh, I dunno. Yeah. No,jeans didn't come. I ordered them again but they didn't come. No I didn't think they would actually. bought her a music . . It's a musical box but it . Funny stuff. Yeah. And it's all hedgehogs and stuff like that. Oh I know, yeah. And it's got primrose well it's on it's about that big I'd say. Yeah. But I mean the best thing is the tin it come in. . I said oh I love the tin. I think that's lovely. She'd be better off going somewhere like the Early Learning Centre and getting a damn good toy. Yeah. it's your nanny and granddad, yeah. Is it next weekend they're going down ? yeah. I mean it's not is it? Yeah. Has he said anything to them or not? No. put them all across the garden. I said do you want me to go and let them out for you? You're kidding! Well I'd better go wreck me car. Yeah well glad she liked it. Alright then love Ta ta. That was Auntie Diane. A bit of amber nectar would be nice. Gonna have plenty of that tonight. Getting your room ready we are, yeah. Here you are, look. Getting your room ready. Yeah. great when you start talking won't it, eh? Eh? Won't it be great? Ooh! Is that better is it? No. Here we got. Wheey up. Gave the car oil a change. Yeah. Yeah right blacker than a black man. Yeah black! Was it? Really thin as well. Really thin. Might improve the performance a bit Yeah but I dunno how much I got in there cos I only just put so much in there so I'll check it on Monday. Yeah right. But it sounds a bit better. Tuck a tuck tuck a tick. So what can we buy you with that money? Eh? You need some vests don't you? Eh? Ooh you're standing up pretty good aren't you mate? Yeah. He hasn't got any socks on remember. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. So what's that insurance thing for then? Oh that's the life insurance. For me and you. So we've got to read it and sign it and we have to say that we understand it and we've received it basically. Yeah. So your balance up mate. Oh he does sometimes. When he wants to. He suddenly goes for it, you know? Sort of stands up really straight and rigid. Yeah. Guess who was er trying to escape from his cot this morning? He was? Well you know he'd, he'd obviously gone backwards. He was on his front when I looked at him. And he was making a tunnel. When I got in it looked like a tortoise. His head sticking out from underneath the blankets. At least with him going backwards he can't can't Good little folder innit? Yeah. He won't er stay out of his covers. He'll erm aren't they? Think he'll probably have some more teeth through. You listening? Yeah. Got to read all this? Well Sorry? So er that paint didn't cover the skirting board very well. It didn't? Crap. Absolute crap. You might just as well you might just as well have undercoated and put ordinary gloss on it. Oh dear oh dear. What are you doing down there? I launched myself. What are you doing down there buddy? back of my head. Didn't hurt That was a silly thing to do. No! That was a silly thing to do weren't it, eh? Goo goo goo goo He's lightning mate, I tell you. Nothing's safe with him, he's so quick. There. Okay okay. forty grand. Is that inflation linked? Yeah. So you'll be worth quite a bit dead? In a few years time. I'm worth more dead than alive. Come on mummy go and get your lunch now. But this is the insurance. This ain't the er pension? No. So if I you get forty grand now Yeah. and you get a pension. Oh. Alright poppet. What are you whingeing for? You . No daddy, he won't know that. Ah! Guess what. The company will pay the greater of the sum insured or the total sale value of the units remaining allocated to the account and the account will cease on the death or earlier permanent disability of Melvin or the death or earlier permanent disability of Lisa . Ha ha ha. Ha ha ha ha. So it applies to one of us. Yeah. I knew that. Well that's alright. I didn't. Right, what can I do to kill you? Well at least we know that we'll be alright if one of us does happen to die. Yeah. We'll both be financially secure. The government won't look after us. No. It should really. Erm You may pay all them flaming taxes and you get stuff all out of it. I know. Erm, what was I gonna say? Haven't got a clue. You ain't told me yet. Oh yes, what do you fancy for your lunch? What do you fancy for your lunch? Food. Bit of bread and butter. Bread and butter? Drop of bread and dripping. Oy oi oi. Oh you mum and dad er popped round last night to see Louise. Guess what time they went round. About nine, ten o'clock? Quarter past eight. She was in bed. She normally goes to bed about half past seven. They said that's the earliest they could get up there. I said that's a load of rubbish I said cos they have fish and chips on a Friday night. Yeah. So she didn't have to cook. Ah they would have had to wash up the plates and the knives and forks. But she's just one of those women who don't like leaving stuff around, you know what I mean? Once they've had something they've gotta do it before they go, can you believe. She's a right pain in the arse at times, me mum. That's why they don't go anywhere you see. Yeah that's why they don't come and visit us or visit his brother very often. So why did they want to see Louise for then? It was her birthday. Oh yeah. should have gone soon as they got out of work. Yeah. And they could have got the fish and chips on the way back couldn't they? Yeah. What gets me Peter! Hello. Hello. When's your birthday mate? June. Tough get no money. forget his . By the time he's about twelve or something I'll go when's your birthday mate? Yeah. June, July, something like that. Alright. I'm looking for some smokes to smoke. They're underneath that bag. There we go mate. He sticks his tongue a lot when he's sort of gets excited or he's doing something. Looks quite funny. I know. Wheey up! There's that point to point racing on today. Wheey up! Wheey up. Wheey up. Yeah. Point to point today. Point to point? Yeah. What's that? Horseracing. Yeah? What's that about then? It's at er I don't know much about them. Horseracing. Amateur. Well no, it's not but it's they don't get paid a great deal. here, eh? Yeah . Yeah Saw er this snazzy little guard in . About twelve quid. Mm. Fireguard. We're gonna need one with him. Yeah, it won't go round there though. No. Erm what I'm thinking of doing is disconnecting the pipe there, and running it through that way. And then it'll be on. Then what we've gotta do is drill through the holes, drill through there Mm. or just have it there as it is. Yeah. It's quite easily done. All I've gotta do is just disconnect the cable. And you just turn the gas off for five minutes it's got nothing pilot light . You know, anything like that. Could do that couldn't we? Yeah. Make su yeah I think I'll do that this weekend. Put that down on my list. Your front teeth are growing well mate. Yeah. They really are. He might have some top ones before long. So all them hassles what you're gonna get in the future when they they're gonna fall out in a few years time. May get a quid if you're lucky. Put that in your piggy bank. Did you find his bank book? No. find it you know? Mm. I haven't really looked for it. oi! Want to sit on the floor mate? Ah! Can I have the please? Oh I had a look at that Sierra that had a front-ender. Cor there's some work on it. Needs er both its headlamp units, needs an indicator unit, a bonnet front wing bumper Mm? number plate grill bonnet catch Yeah. What it needs. It's a lot of work. Oh an a repair to the inner wing. Who's it for? Er Private job or his name is. , you know where you used to live?road, next road up. Which goes across ? , that's it. Adrian ? Yeah. Lee . Lee? Oh Lee!forgot about him. I should have said something He wouldn't know me. No? Adrian and Steven those two may do but Lee was just that little bit younger. Oh and a new rad. radiator. yeah. I'll get you lunch now. Ally and everybody, they were pushing this bloody mini up, is it yours? Go the other way it's easier The gear weren't in first said I ain't give you a hand, standing eating chips Oh you had chips then you came home and you had bloody as well. Did I? Spilt them all over the floor oh it wasn't you it was Chris You don't do it, yeah, stupid father, he didn't know what he was doing, didn't, then you sat there and fell asleep Did I? Yes No I didn't you did yeah, I was watching that erm It's Your Pry Affair on oh yeah then I watched a film on did you record it? No, Inner Space it's called and it's like a, a can you remember? Yeah it's a space, putting his against this bloke yeah thing yeah well this one that was on last night it was like a of that yeah so I mean take the that was on early, so I watched that and then I watched Educating Rita, yeah it's still bloody raining mm, come on then bloody Sunday innit , the microwave then off the allotment can they? no, makes them think they might come up do you want some porridge, mummy do you some porridge? Yuck wallpaper paint, yeah alright then It looks great in that room Does it? it's so bright Be lovely I know dear now it's all dry , it looks great won't it all yeah that colour there, it's all white, it's great good it had better be, yeah, lovely, your room, yes, you've been thoroughly spoilt in there sorry well what's he saying with you? you're rude No, poor little thing You were you were well gone, is that dirty? Yeah Er, tut, erm, I'll a, I'll do the ironing today, I might as well get it all out the way Yeah, is that other stuff dry? Yeah It is, really yeah , yeah, mummy's going to do your porridge Are you going to do any washing? Well there is some there to do, yeah Put the fire on in here for a little while well there's only not a great deal, I mean there's a load in there already done, I think, is it done? No it's not that it's the colour yeah that's done there's the stuff on the floor and there's that on the floor, there's a couple of loads there Loads? Yeah there's the blacks under there Oh is there? There's black upstairs and there's black upstairs, that have to be put in Do the quilt and the whites first Yeah so I, I'll get his breakfast first Yes I'll have our breakfast and promptly threw it all up Did I put any money in there? No What, must have spent spent them last night No, you didn't put any money anywhere, cos I was sitting over there Ah I ain't got no money for you babe, oh I know what I did, I had to count twenty pence worth of co er coppers on me What you gave them to the barmaid? I gave them to the barman, I went one pound, two, four, six, eight How much was a pint, oh cos it was a pub wasn't it? One forty four It wasn't a club that was er, one forty four for Newcastle Oh what you had bottle? Yeah, I started on Yorkshire, then I had Er, it's not worth drinking I had one pint of er normal Yorkshire, my bitter's stronger than that yeah, it's not worth drinking and then I had another pint of Yorkshire, but the draught one Better? it was a bit better, still not very nice No then er, after that we were upstairs and I stayed on Newcastle mm so there's quite a lot of people there then was there? Packed Oh that's good did they charged to go or not? No Oh so it was like a free party type Oh yeah it was erm, yeah and then they er invite you just, some people Yes, it's good then? makes the people into going Yeah was Megan there? Oh yeah, yeah, huh, still with Dave though and er cos I wanted to go to bed and er, by the time we got rid of one lot of people another lot all came through though Oh cos he came home yesterday, did he? yesterday, and when he was coming home yesterday, he was er, spoken to John on the way to the car Yeah and er there was a, a, erm a car, a car had hit a barrier earlier on in the day mm or about five minutes earlier on the motorway and they drove over a part of the barrier, and they got a blow out didn't they? oh no They said they'd changed the wheel in about three minutes flat , I said well it wasn't Friday the thirteenth was it? Yeah Did you send my regards to him? Yeah, yeah, asked how you were Mm I said what he say oh my god Melvin he was going both of them going, how's your missus, some people didn't even know that you were pregnant again some people, no I said she's alright, she's out here like that, ah, yeah, that's it, no more, I said three I haven't slept for two years Hark at your daddy Oh, it was quite funny Oh yeah, a lot of people didn't know you were pregnant again well no, I mean I can conceive it quite well oh yeah poor they just look at me and say oh you know she hasn't lost any weight from the last one Yeah no I mean, quite funny it was well erm, I'll see if this one's a boy, probably in a couple of years we might try for a girl, I don't know No wait wait sorry yeah wait for your body to get back to normal that'll be nice, nice to fit in some clothes Yeah Oh well well I don't know how long this thing will last What thing? oh I think I've put too much milk in this Yes Elaine was there Yeah er Rob was there was Tracy? No all the others were there, Dean, Marg, er all the others Clive? Who? Clive Oh yeah Clive yeah, he's been ill Oh has he? Yeah What's been the matter? I don't know he's some flu or something, he's been in bed for four days Oh god yeah We'll put that in the fridge and see what that turns out like oh what? I like that no, he was never a fat boy No, but he had a bit of a gut on him, a bit broad, but he was as skinny as hell he was well I can remember him skinny from school, I can, what was you saying you don't know what'll last? Ah? What you mean? He said you were gonna give him something but you didn't know how long, long it'll last when I was in the kitchen you said I'll put this on but I don't know how long it'll last no Don't you want a drop more? Come on, cold isn't it, that's what's wrong is it cold? You looking at mummy's t-shirt oh god, you oh dear, shall mummy give you your medicine, now he, he can do it Did he put it down? Yes Can he eat oh he, he likes to mess about a little bit first yeah, well it's no good you like this don't you? Gazunti mate mummy give you a drop of it I think, yeah, can your mother have some? Come on then go on eat this, do you want more there? He come running down the street where's mm, he licks are you licking your lips? Daryl was handing out the tenners I said where's my fucking, where's my tenner Oh yeah Juliet there I suppose Oh yeah prancing around well she come over us last did she? Yeah Where she live then? Up this way, down Cromwell Road yeah up there still lives with her parents don't she? Yeah then Darren went home It's a funny strange couple They are aren't they? Yeah yeah for years he I don't know, about eighty four with a oh yeah, sorry You've got a big tongue you have pop it out, pop that up are you, see teddy bear, see the teddy bear Ha press the button then he tries to do it with one finger but he's just not quite strong enough Yeah, aaargh Oh, oh, oh, you made him jump Oh poor thing You left the mat then Oh got the, got the Oliver pout there ain't we? Oh dear Peter got smiles,, definitely an Oliver pout he's got, yeah What? Er er, er, alright mummy's going to see if your porridge is, cooled down a bit, oh you just do it, put you out to grass I think Want a no thank you you stink ooh porridge Go upstairs and paint that room in a minute, give it two coats today it's too hot too hot mate Paint won't be dry will it if we start papering it? Mm Paint won't be dry enough if we start wallpapering it here are, sorry darling, oops sorry couldn't poison you could we? Ah This is really quite sweet this Yeah mm do you like porridge? yesterday No you left him a note didn't you? Yeah I know I left him a note, I just wondered if you did see No, I don't know what it, he didn't bang on the doors, I was hoovering at the time Is that nice? Mm, is it? Well he must have think got a lot of good customer here Yes had me up having four or five pints a day you know Mm, oh he'll have a pint a day really, the next will have a pint that's two, I'll have a pint that's three, you, four Peter now where you going? Can you eat your breakfast first before you go on your little walk about here I am, poppet oop mm must make sure that motor got a wing mm, mm just wondering what to have next come on sit back He wants the dish Oop, come on sit back, please sit back oh you think you're very clever aren't you? Where you going, ah? Keep there, go on sit back, sit back, good boy, ah, yeah, look, come on, come on sit back, well you're finished with your breakfast then, here you are, here you are here you are, Peter, I know you like doing your acrobatic, come on he knows to sit down to eat this breakfast, I can have an contortionist here are, quite like this, here it is this disgusting baby food you get, ugh Sure we need this rain don't we? Yeah, we do, the gardens do, come on, please poppet come on I can't wait to start on that Spitfire this week No Oh yeah she wants it this month don't she? Yeah Er? that one side together Yeah, Peter, Peter, oh dear mummy feels pretty rough this morning Do you? Mm Peter oh this child come on likes this don't you? Mm come on then, oh you're going that way now are you? Here you are, wonder if your aunty will come round today Who? I wonder if Aunty Ann will come round today er if not, suppose we could go round and see her if she's about, getting withdrawal symptoms, won't she? Come on, er Peter come on mummy's dropping porridge everywhere, have you had enough now? Ah? Come on I've got to wipe your face, oops Ah have you had enough, you've eat quite a lot haven't you? You want some more, shall we try you with a little bit more? Sit paint innit? oh whoopy, here you are, Peter, good boy Aren't there Grand Prix on? No mummy will most surprised if you eat all this come on then, have you had enough? I think you might have here you are, oh yeah, blimey, what you trying to do? Are you? What you trying to do? Mummy's leg, yes is that better daddy? Is that better? Mm, alright, thanks Mm, how does your head feel now? A lot better Good eighteen minutes past ten and you're still eating your breakfast Well that's on bloody telly today excuse me of guinness records It's alright you've got plenty to do Sorry? You've got plenty to do Oh yeah mm that costs a lot that mm, wanna watch Love Two tonight You wanna watch Love Two, why? Just want to. Oh there's that new Carla Lane thing on, it's Screaming, sounds pretty good What channel? Er B B C one I think Yeah, a new Carla Lane comedy Yeah Give it a go, watch European again I suppose Listen here darling there's a man in er that means I can't watch er Maigret Why? if we watch the that's alright I don't really like Maigret anyway No it's a bit too er good for words you know what I mean? with Roger Daltry pin machines on tonight, never heard of it, oh it's David Bowie's group, that's it, ah I'll record that Erm, they don't show any more musical telly these days Mm, you're attacking mummy now are you? What time's that on? Eleven forty Oh dear mummy will be well in bed by then where you going? Well look at this daddy he's eaten a whole bowlful of it yeah Whoops someone must have been hungry, or you must like it normally have a job to get one Weetabix down him, come on then one more spoonful Yeah I think I'm gonna change some of my videos What do you mean? oh alright, what about me if I want a film? What? What about me if I want a film? Well the bloke still brings them round there's some good films coming out Ah? There's some good films coming out Yeah I think My yeah , yeah that's what I mean, you can have My Left Foot is on Oh no we'll have er the videos that we're gonna watch you know I've got twenty odd videos there and we're not using any of them, apart from what's on the top, we're gradually filling these up No, I think that's on in the week, My Left Foot Yeah it's erm well I like watching some of these but I don't know I don't know whether you'd like that or not, you might do, he got er, er, an Oscar for it, Daniel Day Lewis Yeah, we've got all those videos there love and not got a thing on them no, the music ones they can stay, they'd be alright in the future Yeah but maybe doesn't really interest me you gonna get dressed or something or Ah? Gonna get dressed? you make me feel cold sitting there with no t-shirt on, er oh big bowlful of breakfast you'll go pop, you do it yourself? Yeah so he don't get his knees cold Yeah so he can play on the floor Yeah They did it, they did it Who? I didn't do it No where's his clothes then daddy? Er? So where's his clothes? I don't know, bring any down Oh, give him the sack or what down here sexy Pardon? they're usually down here No they're not no come on we'll have the lid off that thank you, you can go down, mummy can get you some clothes to wear oh What? Boo want your dummy to suck do you? You don't wanna give him any of that, throw it all over him yeah, this is what your going to wear today, yep er oh I didn't bring any socks did I? I your mother's useless she is, she's er come on porridge chops ooh, that's a wet one innit? Oh dear is it worth it? Oh dear we are in trouble that you again, won't I? never dry No they wouldn't would they, when the weather cheers up ah mate? Sorry got some money in there, OK oh do your ballerina bit, we'll have to wash your face, yeah it's filthy, filthy face, breakfast face oh that's that new twins isn't it? Yeah What, what ah ha Come on no where you going, trying to stand up, no don't you try to pull this off, trying to make this one come undone wow, oh yes teddy, dad you're like in Ooh we, well he's so fine, fine, fine, fine, fine, fine, so fine ya, ya, ya, ya, ya, he's so fine girl you ever wanna meet oh, oh, oh, oh,yo, oh, oh, oh, dance then rrrrrp petite the finest girl you ever wanna meet try for, die for it's all fine she's really sweet the finest girl you ever wanna meet die for, so sweet, oh, oh, right oh, oh, oh, oh,oh, oh, oh, oh Look at this Reap petit the finest girl what in here let me night, bless mummy and dad die for, sweet for she's got what it takes, she's everything that the boy really rate, oh cutie, my tooty fruity, my heart, my love she's oh, oh right, she's got just what it takes, she's got what it takes and with a boogy, really, really rates, oh, oh, oh, oh, yo, oh, oh, oh rrrrrp petit the finest girl you ever wanna meet rrrrp petit the finest girl you ever wanna meet rrrrp petit the finest girl you ever wanna meet What you doing? Oh look at that weather In for the day that is Da That's your face you have a bath tonight, you want those feet, go on then go and get them, go get them Floyd going backwards, you said forward, got to get it forward, one, two, three, four one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four Shall mummy go and find you some socks? Oh, just about go to the loo What you doing? What you doing? Ah? Do you want a drop more milk, eh? Yeah, do you want any breakfast? No, that'll do for now thanks love yeah is that a brunch? Have a breakfast for lunch sort of thing Oh I'll see how I am, I'll get him some socks, watch him ugh yeah and waste him Oh Just had to go to the toilet didn't I? No Yeah, right that's oh yeah I wanted to see see the jump, you didn't put his teddies up last night Yeah, I know Oh I didn't realise he's alright Is he OK? Yeah what, that mobile up in there can't we? What mobile? That teddy bear one that can go there Yeah , you looking at daddy's feet, I'll get his erm, his cot in here now Yeah, do you wanna find that beef and that oh yeah what would you like to slot that in? I've forgotten the bowl, ugh, oh dear oh dear yeah are we regurgitating mate? Yeah it does a bit don't it? Hello, thank you, er, er, er, er ah there teddy Water's in the tank? Sorry oh, erm ah There we are then boy I got you, you doing now? That's something different for you ain't it? Ah? Come on then, way up Right, I'm going upstairs now OK paint with the doors, OK? In fact I'm taller than the doors Oh alright Where are you going? Too long Too long, I said it would be That's a shame You make a tea? Yeah Come on then, you can't sit back there, ooh oh you wanna stand up then, come on then, come on ooh, go on then, we'll go and see daddy, come on then come on then, come on then, come on move it move it, come on move your foot, over there I think come on then, come on, oh rrrm, rrrm, rrrm, rrrm, rrrm, who's that? Say daddy Oh hello come on then, rrrm, rrrm, run what you doing mate? Ah? come on, he don't like to swing his legs very much he does the whole body Mind the flower behind you Yeah, it's alright I'm giving up now anyway Who's a clever boy, ah, who's a clever boy? You are ain't you mate clever boy Oh, er, he wants some medicine are you clever boy ain't you? Oh you're kicking baby, he really clings on here now, don't he? Yeah Shall I give you a drop of medicine? Way up, here would you like to in the steriliser please he's ooh it's turn on tap right it's your medicine the spoon's on the towel, oh Oh dad is incompetent tastes like custard, Does it? don't it? Yeah oh yeah Are you sticking your tongue out at daddy are you? Yes here I am lift him, so erm yeah so you just do a grey and the green Well I can first yeah cos as I say got enough Enough what? Erm rooms through there Oh room above above the Yes, so what I'll do is I should think you will have What I'll do darling is that all the tiles will come through about there I mean if you did to the edge of the bath I'll leave that gap there and I'll crossed out six, eight tiles there, OK? Yeah, fine and then er when you do grab a we'll put something there, what most of the tiles on Yeah, fine say about eight tiles Yeah over the area Oh, good idea, oh if anybody asks, I thought I know put cupboard there Yeah another way, you might have to rip off three or four whatever, four or five maybe Well, yeah better than not being able to afford to do it at the moment, Yeah hello baby, you'll go floppy backwards, you will, shake your head at me oh right mm ah Has he had a wash? Sorry, no, you OK? Who's coming? What are you doing? Me? No Peter, no, no, come this way come and see mummy, come on, come on come on come on, what you shaking your head for, you not gonna come? Peter come on you do your acrobatics this way Can you hear what they're saying? No conception where and when was it? Here are mine, don't put them in your mouth why, are they I didn't see that, sorry oh useless the things they on here ooh, what have you got Peter, mummy's got it now ha, ha, ha, ha you're not bothered then, don't bother him, put it back on the bottle Right no I think I can go over there now, thank you, here are look what about this? Pardon? I mean that was really, really turn that didn't you, you went to the other side and turn it over your come on then foot's to, yeah a bit of an adjustment I think you need you're funny, you are, come on then come on then, right, hold that, you'll finish off the carpet anyway, here are then, ta, ta where you gone? Where you gone? Come on you can roll over, here are, come on you can roll over you gonna sit up? Sit up then, you sit up? Go on then sit up no, you sit up, go on then, oh I did, pulled his arm see what he does, the old tongue hanging out, what you doing? His legs are getting a lot stronger now Yeah cos when you, he, he flexes them, you trying to change his nap , bend his knee or something you can't No no, oh dear Ha, his new noise obviously, your new noise? Debbie's boys aren't you? No You're also on the move Yeah take for that now, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes Peter, yes, yes Quite a strong lad when he grabs a thing, he really goes it really, don't you? Ah? Very intent he is what's your dad doing? Is he pulling faces at you? How are you are you getting bored now are you? Sorry Oh I well you've had more sleep than I have oh sometimes did you have? Ah not gonna have to many, I'll take it nice and steady, yeah I bet you I had a Yorkshire, can't even get a I had a Yorkshire at half past seven then I had another one at eight Yeah, are you listening to him I had another at ten to eight yeah are you listening to him and then I had another one at half past eight, that was three, I had another pint at about another three more Yeah, we know we've been there before haven't we? We have, who's we were? What pissed? Ah? when I was first pregnant, cos I didn't realize I was pregnant Yeah, you might end up seeing he might No I don't think so ah no not in front of me thank you let him take them off Oh god, oh disgusting creature, don't go near him either poo, mm, nice and smell erm boy, you wait until you get a whiff of it feet, don't he? Yeah Cos every move we see him go who his one? no, oh, I won't be able to go outside though will I? I'll do it What go up a ladder? Have me hand outside Mm Ha, ha, thank you Peter, oh that's the biggest ice cream to His mother buys him ice cream Yeah I'd expect Tracy would want one , don't you queue up Do you want one dear? Do you want one? Yeah Dinner's at two ninety nine Pass I don't want it down there That was quick , never mind she did Yeah Two ice creams Yeah, get you a small one and all babe I'm going to bed now Aaagh I wouldn't touch those Peter, oh no aaagh, aaagh god put them away he's gotten your feet tickled Yeah Oh, ho pervert you What do you mean pervert? Oh He's He's I think he's trying to eat your toes Errup Yeah Oh dear oh er imagine that ah You don't really want to stuff that in your gob mate Yeah, he would, I suppose he's been eating his own toes all day Yeah you've had a look upstairs? Yeah What you reckon? Alright it's alright Testing, testing, one, two, three, four,sorry? You OK then, I'll put this in the bedroom then, not that it's not really draughty Only a bit, that wants a wash don't it, you can have a bath The packets there, what's that for? Oh How are you? Oh a lot better today Come on then come, do you like doing it? Bouncing on my leg and then he gets up on he holds himself on the sofa Ooh aren't you clever? Aren't you clever? Oh you are, you are clever, But him, he said oh well And he said oh no I told him if I I ain't never get anything else for, when I go on holiday, but I said I don't even think we're never going on holiday, mind you, Yeah anyhow but I'm ever so pleased that she got her So who needs It's alright, could I I mean you know you've Yeah had her there, when she said when Charles makes an old man, she said about erm, burning his and so that, mum had asked so I said the next best thing I said is ring Sarah and she said she'd already sent a gift, no have a conversation with her, is Lorraine coming today, no she said Terry's decorating never said where I said well Yeah and er, so she said you know so I said I thank you oh they are, they're going to France Yeah, I ain't said anything to her though She ain't worth saying anything is she? Aye So is this Yeah But er, oh she said I she said she ain't seen him since oh well before Christmas Really? then she said they've been down at the this time of year Yeah, do you want some tea? Yeah, why not. He needed that Come on then let's have a look at you, we don't want a do we? Oh he's alright. yeah, er that'll be nice to have you suck your dummy, don't we, ah? Yeah mummy was poorly last night I was only sick Yeah about ten past one, well I had indigestion all night and I could feel it, and we'd had our tea and I thought oh I don't know, but I went to bed feeling alright and suddenly I woke up I thought oh my god I'm gonna be sick, I come running down stairs, but you know I was, I was sick but I know I hadn't finished and I'd sat down and I was sick three times. Went to bed about two I'm standing like said I overslept Yeah yeah so we didn't get up till late this morning I was thinking of going round the time, but I shall go this afternoon, it's Did you feel alright this morning? Yeah not too bad, a bit sort of groggy I think cos I was up Yeah, right Rupert oh you shuffle round the pains in the back of me head and down me shoulders No he's tried to ain't he? Yeah I remember I had such a strain one, I just couldn't find it quick enough Oh it's just horrible right yeah, they'll miserable them aren't they? Yeah, it's good, sit and watch the television down here I don't know Oh I say I know my two and goodness and she's never rung up and said anything about the shirts and trousers, but it wouldn't hurt would it? No And daddy's been busy on your mum then has he darling? Yeah in that new room, oh you don't want to shake your head, even I Yeah We'll get everything sorted out this week, we'll, we'll move him at the weekend Lovely Yeah Aren't you lucky? You'll have a big room all on your own, yes, a nice big room Yeah, it's lovely. The, sod of a paper though, it's horrible paper that Disney, I didn't know how he got it up, it's, it's only thin What, thin? I thought it would be Yeah If I'd No, no, but yeah it was, it was awful paper, but I mean you'd got it up as long as you don't look too closely, it's got it's own, some of have Can grandma have a look? Can gran have a look? Yes Shall we go and have a look? some of the joins have got to be touched up yet. I'll tell you what they've got in erm erm lovely swingtop bins in PoundStretchers, er with Disney on for Oh yeah It's got deep red or green right I wondered if it and it Oh right. let's go and have a look then, shall we? You'll have to take more and more film of him, then it's lovely when you look back on it Yeah and I'll have Judy do it. Has he Yeah Oh good I think it's erm I wasn't sure about it at the time No It looks nice jumper, did you have a bit of a hot flush? A bit warm this morning Not been able to er yeah and I went to see the old chap, cos he's got the election Oh were they? I thought Oh alright then pet, mummy's finished now, do his fit him? They're a little bit big Oh well I've brought, I've got, there was a size under that Yeah, but but he's, he's got a chubby foot yeah, no they're a little bit big so, yeah they look nice though, he likes a bath Good, oh So I've put the in, in his baby walk and he's sort of he were ever so good and I was told about all these and he told me about Thomas the Tank engine, everywhere we went Ah absolutely crazed on Thomas the Tank really? Cos then it's something that's done him good and it's learnt him to talk cos he's had Thomas erm yeah without putting it on. Oh, well perhaps we'll get him some of Thomas the Tank for his birthday then, if we've forgotten it, biscuit Did you go swimming on Thursday? Friday Yeah I've not seen them before No Nearly I said to her did they in there mind, I've bought you some chicken portions so when you're here next week you've got chicken portions You're a happy little soul. Has he lost a bit of weight? Yeah, I have, of course he didn't really eat last week, especially really for him, ain't you? In fact it'll help him chest wise won't it? Yeah, he's a lot better, you can't hear it now. Yeah, we've found something he likes for breakfast it's called Quakerwake, it's erm porridge with little bits of food in it Oh lovely. he eats a big bowlful. It's good for him. He likes that. What you doing, cutting down a bit on his milk? Yeah, I do him cows milk during the day, he has er two bottles of that cows milk and then he has a, a big bottle of formula milk at night, so I brought him it, erm, a lunch box with a flask in, I said, look this flask you suck it like a straw, so get him to take that everywhere with him cos then he can have that, then he, cos you said you wanted to get him off the bottles, cos you put the straw in that Yeah yeah time they've been round the floor and picked up again they're not that good are they? No cos the health visitor, she, cos I asked her about sterilizing, and, and she said with all teats they should be sterilized no matter what age they are Mm so, they're so, they've got all nooks and crannies in them, you can get all sorts in them yeah apparently it's only sixty P I think it was Thomas the Tank, all Thomas books and you can get crayons to do with it Yeah so he had that out, he just crayoning a bit now Oh is he? Mm That's good I don't know whether I want Except I Let's zip your suit up dear And when we spend so I thought as soon as I can get to see her I'll see if she'll give Jim my, I thought an aran cardigan Mm cardigan mm, I've got mum a nice cardigan and Lucy said it fits him lovely, but she was saving all the blue clothes Amy's three tomorrow, so she'll give them to her tomorrow, she so had the party in So what's that I say to Lee didn't you, you take on having her it's alright when it's your own at the time because well it's, it's different, when there's another one there, I mean it, it wears you out so Thank you for them, thank you for Ooh you are funny you are funny, yeah. Couldn't believe any difference of him from Christmas when he didn't say anything to know to know, we don't say, had to talk to him through the Christmas presents it was lovely. I wonder if, if that I'd put that out with them two tapes and take to Julie to put them on a big tape for you. Pat rung up and wanted me to fetch the dressing table on Tuesday night I said yeah alright I'll do Wednes but I forgot I was going out with the girls Wednesday so I went out Tuesday and she wouldn't let me have it, cos Tuesdays they're not working in the kitchen Really? Oh god wouldn't take her five minutes, so she sat so I thought, I can help you lift them outside, no Tuesday night is my night in the kitchen. I only got inside the front door cos it's Tuesday night her night in the kitchen, so I went back home and he didn't half swear at me, he said you bloody well go again you want your head tested, I could have cried I thought oh well cos I didn't feel like rushing around I was telling them so she said I said to her how much the old front so I said put it down me she stuck it outside Well, you, oh yeah but, you know, it's and that a week before it happened, what's happened to her, cos she don't hear from her, and she said you know, I, it's been twenty five years since my mum died Anne, she said and if I didn't make a life, would have come to me No she said and now I'm finishing school I still need them sometimes for a meal and then I'm going out in the W R V S shop, something like that in the chain, yeah then you don't need people why nobody's going to buy Sometimes you felt like saying Yeah , yeah, well not if you ask, I mean if you ask somebody to come and help you I think it would have took us oh no, no, and don't come too early she said She's really gone funny ain't she? She is unsettled. I think if she hadn't gone away at Christmas she would have gone round the bend would have been somebody a counsellor or something. I mean he fancied having a day off to the anniversary of them dying, she had a day off then like she did at Christmas and then, then a different one dies, really think one of that didn't she? Really I mean she had plenty of warning it happening to her yeah couldn't tell Pat Yeah yeah I mean, she weren't that good with her when she was alive No I think it's guilty, that's what that is Yeah, that's it Yeah. There's er, there's an organisation with erm, er voluntary, where they go and they talk to her Cruse Cruse, yeah Mrs went to and then she began to open up didn't she? Yeah But you see she ain't a person you could say that to Ida is she? No I mean when, when, when she was home she could have spent the evening with us when all the children were there and joined in but she wouldn't, she cleared out back and that's how Julie heard Yeah, yeah. Well if she gets funny again just turn around and say Pat well I think you need some help. I think Grace and come in that day and she sat up the table with the boys and had a dish of she said, I've got Jack's and mine dinner cooking she said we've got 'tatoe's with crust round today Oh yeah now I'm having time with her. I mean she loves it with the kids Yeah I found a frame now I ain't got and I've got a frame big enough for Joseph Oh yeah shame, I still have a frame No, I daren't tell her Are you busy? It is a lovely ball, are you busy? Ah are you busy? Yeah, I think you are, had a stick of rock, yeah, aren't you lucky. Don't forget April the first that's Uncle Tom's birthday, I knew that one, I never thought to say that, but No, I, I knew it was some time but I just I remembered Louise's birthday because Louise's birthday was the Friday the thirteenth And was she two? No Louise she was, oh no two, six And how is she? She's alright yeah, well I, I bought her a book but it's one of these, it's like a talking book a Disney one, it's got like a keyboard down the side and you press certain pads and it makes a noise and I thought oh rather than just getting an ordinary book, I thought that would be quite good Yeah Yeah, but it's erm Did she have a party or anything? No, no Different what a party makes There there's a good boy I was pleased that Sarah was trying to like that in a way because I think my lens you know, know what we're going through don't she? Yeah She you couldn't hold a conversation she said with her, said yes or no, of course that baffled Lynsey, cos Lynsey and Pat, you know they got talkative at first Pat told me Bloody cheek, she on the phone cos we only speak once a week, well I don't think and that, so Charles is very much like that on the phone, you can't get a conversation out of him Well it's in the it's when you go in there, you spend awful lot of funds sort of thing that's how much you feel Yeah , yeah, you know used to phone up and you used to think well what have you phoned up for,cos you end up talking Yeah and talking and she said if they didn't phone they would never know they were alive, oh well. Oh One thing she won't be remembered for no it's not Well at least we say hello We'd better get, what some of the old dears are up to Oh yeah, I'll go and see what she's doing Playing with the bairn Yeah he's oh when I phoned up you, Got a phone, you going to play with your own phone He likes that one nan, what if you, pick up the phone and dial and start talking to somebody he sits there and he's in fits of laughter, he loves it. I thought it was Ben yesterday afternoon I dropped Lynsey's thing in with Ben down there and it's Jack, I like John, I like to speak to John, so I said John I think it's Tommy for you, but then he said no it's Jack, and he said you know I'm having a clear out and he promised him a tin Might be from one of the holidays Scarborough That's that's your Yeah, when I come back, we that the swimming pool was being filled up in the Yeah I expect it is warmer than Oh yeah Oh yeah, mummy jacuzzi's, trouble is you get in there and you don't want to get out I think we're gonna put erm erm the carpet, yeah put old carpet in his room, I don't want to, but yeah, yeah Erm, Joe's gone to Luton Oh yeah, I think so. Er, erm a Vax machine he said no if you want one, I'll get one and then he said Julie's work with Obart, works with the computers and works for Obart, like all the machines or something, when he comes in I said have you bought my hoover? Bought a Vax, they said no they're a con don't worry, he said with a little bit of luck you'll get one that'll be free, you'll have to give a report on it once a month, then about after nine months they give it to you if they thought if I had to pay for it I thought something like that would be quite handy to have Yeah I'd like my pink carpet up this year, cos after we had it down the electricity come and it's a bit bobbly this part, once you've got your Yeah Otherwise it's still wear it yeah, it does they will won't they? it's not they'll have a go, they'll have a go at anything now, she was just a she was walking round Saturday you know, I said look be careful cos you won't get your head through the door No, but I think it's worth knowing yeah Is that your room done all upstairs nice and trendy? Yeah nice and clean innit? Yeah, yeah, yeah we was erm That fire man has he came to do the gas fire yet then? No not yet But ain't it a in the paper yesterday, and the couple I know they've got three children, but I can't see how they can move they took out a mortgage from six years ago, about six years ago, sixty four thousand and they owe seventy three now but I, he says he didn't, I mean, since she's had the chop, but between having the first and then having the twins, the second, she went back to work then at the Building Society, so she's got a cheaper mortgage, so why didn't they pay some off then? They've been with the mortgage didn't they? stupid innit? He's got a company car so he don't have that with that no oh my darling we're going to see dad now. You're gonna see, go to bed one night so John see you. I ain't seen that Smithy this week well he did love his Christmas one She ain't chucking up this time, he said Yeah I will That's hope the holiday does us good that's the washing machine Is that going round? Yes. Some babies sit in front of them and go asleep Oh Oh yeah What were you after? Do you want them? Yeah Alright? Got a lot of lights, good job we're not Yeah Peter Peter Peter, daddy hit you on the nut did he? Ah ooh you want that bit of bread do you, ooh. Ooh you want the remote control do you, ooh, tough titty no, thank you Peter Are you going to eat your get away from here, I can't see for the flaming Oh yeah, yeah sorry You've got some mate, don't worry Mm, lovely bread mm, mm, mm Mum thinks the decoration it's lovely, she said tell him you've done a really good job, shush See that Peter yeah, she thinks it's great good boy Yeah, he's feeling a lot better today as well er? feeding much better today Oh was he? Yeah I'll suspect get it by the time they go Oh that's clever,me that Yeah say about badge's Well at least they're doing something about it yeah for once for the environment, Yeah I come home a little bit earlier tonight yeah get that room finished now I've wallpapered right it'll take a while try and get the border thing across Mm We got it Well done later yeah I think for now. Please Oh yeah Seen this kid Sorry seen this kid What's he doing? look, quickly what? Peter, you don't shift he was sucking it, he was doing something else, he go oh yeah, he'd got wire mesh, cos I laughed at him he pulled it away and hit his head Getting the cheeky side out of him now yeah it is Well mate you a cheeky little bugger are you?great ain't you? to you Ta Where the ear plug? Hurt me arm Who the cat? Tough Why couldn't they come on Friday? What you got me then? don't go in the cupboard and er were twenty nine, ninety nine but reduced to nineteen What happened to my shirt I was supposed to be getting You said you didn't want it There By the time you went to work yeah I'm not paying twenty quid for a shirt so you can wear to work what shirt, like this, warm I thought you meant the, the mustard shirt yeah Your suppose to chew it, yeah your supposed to chew it, alright I'll save for it I won't ruin it cos they've covered anyway, these aren't ruined. I only got, I only ruined me other one cos when, when it, getting ruined, yeah get No I was gonna ask you for a lift down town, but er Probably wet actually sorry on the floor ain't it? don't know that's a sat on the bench, leg up yeah I I'm tired, he's just playing, here you are He No but he had the raffle off of er Did he?probably knocked that off No, he'd have a job to knock it off, it was left to er the word real thing yeah I know. I put the washing out but it isn't dried really it's ok, it's not as bad as it is now I'll be about upstairs Come on He isn't in there Yeah Oh is it that, that thing tonight? Oh yeah Done already come on then come on you've got your favourite here, apricot It was alright for twenty quid But I can't wear it if you get on your diet aaaah you get back to what you were get your figure, diet and we can start going out together love you I love you too alright love There he is, there's dad mm got a ain't he? Oh he very well at home Who are them blokes bloody make a living then? Don't know. who support the families they do, don't they mm you know what some people like yeah and that, a lot of his old staff like Charles, or Debbie things like that the're all I'm paying them Mm the're buying out of me yeah he gets a company yeah so that makes it a bit worth while I suppose yeah oh why they no I know, they have to wait that's it, got to be quite left in the shop today weren't we? I don't particularly want to fork out a no I know our one's just as good Yeah, the only other place we've got Josephine's immersion put that one on the market I suppose the thing is though, he'll be walking and the other one still be in the pram, get that one out again Ow, oh, oh, you've got all mummy's hair in your fingers, you do pull he's laughing at you yeah, great fun, shall mummy start pulling your hair like that, your evil, you really are, you know, on me, wish how much is that with the how much is that's two hundred pounds I'm pretty sure we're gonna get a hundred and fifty quid for it. Er, we will, have you seen the What yeah faded already He's not invite sunshine hello names like sunshine either oh that's nice, and it's bloody raining yeah, if it is sunny, I was gonna chuck curtains in there so I mean it looks like it's gonna, five year old Is it? You can buy new covers for it but it'll cost you about eighty quid Oh stuff that Glad I wasn't out in it Now what saying with that, that'll be used again when he is actually walking and doesn't need a pram and the other one's still toddelling toddelling or whatever yeah yeah , this is like a buggy baby thing yeah, the buggy obviously can stay up there, what I'm saying when he's yeah whatever age, he want Peter he want, don't wanna be three, three years old he'll still, he needs the buggy, then we can get that one back out again, you won't need a double one then will you? No or whatever age, four, five, whatever yeah oh Oh give us paper What you looking at? the Adams family's on Come on you can go and sit back in there for two minutes, your just up to mischief out here, yeah, go on that's what you want don't, play with Oh yeah World In Action eight thirty Anglia The Homeless People Oh is that? yeah, part two ain't it? Righty-o, I'm just going to get the washing in, shall I leave it out there until tomorrow? I said I suppose he has just say Yeah has he got no brains on him? well his sort a, a regular time you know, you know from a, he'll be here fairly early it rain rain like sometimes it wasn't until about nine o'clock you know yeah mm, quite with it, you know, here's your tea oh cheers erm, I think your bread for tea who? give them your bread, toast I'll cut it, look at the state of that oh I can't cut, will you, if you see yesterday it was so squashy this bread, I couldn't cut it, I'd have a go I know , yours lasted a week but look yes, alright, I, you'll have to ban me from cutting your loaf, you'll have to do it, you will. I never was very good with bread mm I wasn't you what sorry? I never was very good cutting bread there you go Oh it was still warm when I picked it up well yes, squashy yeah it's very difficult to cut, I thought I did excellent, well actually probably not oh make you another tea? what I do, I make that curry, I can freeze that yeah yeah why a traditional English dinner tonight oh you were, like what? chop and chips oh god, there's one pork chop in there you can have I think, that's have a look chop and chips see what I can find, I've got these out of Budgen's cos they were fifty nine P. cor that's cheap Yeah, that's what I thought, see what the're like, there's one porky chop, is there any in here do you know or not? steak, a curry erm what about a pie? do you want a pie? No, means I'll have to make it, er soon get one out, in the week, can't we? Sorry darling don't look as if there's any chops no we haven't just a lone pork chop, erm, I can do you oh I'm gonna need some cider, sausage meat and pork casserole no chops? no one, one pork chop, a lone pork chop Get some pork chop's then. yeah Where from though? Do you want er pork and sausage meat casserole? yeah A bit more enthusiasm please yeah thank you right, oh dear, oh, got crushed no I don't know whether Ann will go to this week, cos she's a, a bit pre-occupied with her holiday things, so she probably won't. I don't know what he's got on special, so say you've got oh yeah I think so one of them you got anything special offer this week mate not that I've got any money to buy anything oh I haven't turned the grill right off yeah, fine oh, yeah ooh there's a flower here somewhere? which one, probably a daffodil actually I don't know yeah I think so they've shut, shut up since the rain haven't they? yeah what they all did mm well we should of been out there watering them mm beforehand plenty of other things to do do you want me to write your mother's day card? You mm, or are you gonna write erm? Suppose I'll have to put them both with a five can always buy her a plant or some or a box of chocolate's, oh sorry Melvin brought you these, forgot you were on a diet anything oh oh dear I should think you could send every female relative possible a mother's day card yeah it's ridiculous very with my mothers yeah I know, but I mean they've got things like to my god mother, have they? to my sister and things like that mine just says happy mothers day mm it's ridiculous that's what my brother wants it's father's day mm come to think of it I don't think I bought me dad one for father's day yes you did got him a card and a pair of socks did we? mm, what time was it, in June? oh I'd better get one for her then. my first, take to market oh yeah how long they last? yeah not very long cos mine never well yours are different were they? Oh yeah those are different ones aren't they? yeah, cost a pound mm yeah what the kids like? Oh went on them, that was with them yesterday, Aaron he went off the other one's called Peter? sorry the other one's called Peter? I didn't see him oh, the old boy oh, I think this is the older boy fancy got a boy called Peter well their youngest one was one that run off? no Aaron was the one that run off oh I think Peter was at erm play school because they go to play school two afternoon's a week oh yeah mm, so then I saw her last Tuesday or whenever she told me oh mm, oh yeah, I think he's over two oh yeah yeah cos er, yeah he must be two and a half, cos er play school won't accept them er Stella left er, when he was six month's old yeah Are you gonna have any paste or not? no oh I'm gonna switch this, turn the grill off it is off no I said I haven't switched the grill off fully oh you said oh, alright see waste of gas no not much get that like your mother's I don't think so, do you? three bills, my money's flaming well that'll teach them won't it? Now they've got the bloody nerve to charge us half when we live there I don't think she'd dare say anything to me about it. No, no need to charge us half yeah we weren't even having the bloody gas heater on during the day no, we're allowed to light a coal fire weren't we? Yeah, that was it She's having fun then going out into a home next, that'll be his fault yeah I bet his took most of it, yeah oh that dad's down Dover all the time yeah, and your mother having the central heating on mother with the central heating on cooking everybody central heating was the gas fire, they but she now don't, definitely don't no simply no unless it's, it's literally off oh that wouldn't be switched on yet no not yet See these socks that she bought for Jade mum did yeah gave them to Jade gave them to Jade? these little girl socks postman pat the're boys I know, that's a bit more girlie but not much the're boys ones I know so she said will they fit Peter, I said oh yeah He's got enough socks yeah, mm, always nice to have some more, ridiculous in it? It must be love, love, love latest in the charts is it? yeah oh god the group's not even together any more, it's weird oh all in different groups but I know there's a, a LP or something that's been brought out yeah, combination album yeah because I saw it advertised in Woolworth's yesterday I did yeah yeah oh oh bloody washing's not gonna dry, oh how was the fire last night, we forgot about it didn't we? Yeah shit that was in your house dear what it see how easily put off you can be how easily distracted you can be I was wall papering with that no it wasn't oh it's lovely and dry, lovely there you go take them no leave them in here for now yeah, never get done you cheeky sod, never get's done, bloody hell actually they've dried up quite well, they seemed to of dried up we'll see, they've been outside a little while, so the're not being, quite wet still I know though, well it was very damp yesterday wasn't it, so? Yeah I'll put this bean bag in back in his cover Put a load of socks and pants, a lot of socks and pants ah, that's a I don't know whether to put them outside or not better try I don't, don't know perhaps I know, but, it's sort of on the mind don't they? That's it er give us something and I'll put it in well try to put it in might get in there Is that all I have to do? Joanne, none of this dry you said? it's like trying to put a quart in a pint pot gonna dry them, it's dry, manage to get it in, it's awful The chair shouldn't take up much room oh my that'll be perhaps that one can dry, all shirts I'll see how the weather goes I mean I might hang it out I don't know. What after me doing all that? Oh dear, I do feel sorry for you having to do all that I did all that and you're gonna hang it out on the line. Well I said I might, I said I haven't, I've not decided yet miss that one shut up what, getting tinky on me? I'm not getting tinky on you good Melvin It's me did you bring your dish down? yeah Are you sure? No, I believe you ok, if you don't believe me I believe you, I just, asked that's why you said are you sure? I know what you're like Jade stop it What? What? you didn't have to bit on my knee I was, I was hungry no, I said have some toast and told you ah I wasn't having some toast oh god, mm, mm, mm get out of it what yeah, highlight of my morning get my rod out your rod? mm ooh that beer smells it does, you made a new lot didn't you? yeah that yeah don't normally stays up like that doesn't it? No well, well, would it mm, sorry, I still haven't got any elastic, I meant to get some elastic for that bloody trousers, oh oh I've got to order dad some trainers I think, I might have a bath should think so an all , your fault not mine you , I'd better send that off to Ben er? I send that to Ben, oh if I do it now you can post it for me couldn't you? Yeah, if you hurry up You haven't been a toilet yet, in teach of habit I'd try to go before I kept going to the public one's oh, oh Tiny , I'd thought you'd finished I don't mind paying ninety nine P for these, because they, so much goes towards charity charity yeah, but then you pay about three quid my, I told you that mother's day one was one ninety nine get double what? nothing,ah, ah, ah, ya yeah I'll finish off that wall papering tonight I do you spell village? I think I've spelt village wrong V, I, double L, A, G, E I've put villiage oh there's obviously a word oh silly woman yeah Well where's the sunshine?mm oh I suppose I'll have erm, doing. When? Thing is, I was take John motor back up weren't I? Came about half ten, so I don't know what time I went down the Rave's, be that time. I suppose that's the only time he could go, you know get ready get ready, yeah, I was gonna say something to you well couldn't of been that important erm no it couldn't of been that important come on then I can't think what oh, I don't know I was gonna say got to go oh, I've forgotten, you know my brain leaves me at the most important time, don't forget to post that will you? no he's birthday yesterday oh I see, our electric one again, our gas was telephone bill, it's all paid as well, yeah Did you put down my fuel bill for last month? No, did you write a cheque out? Yeah it would of gone down then good, that's this month's one, have I got that Oh no, I had receipts on it You had them then , yeah in an envelope, yeah, now if you write a cheque out for us, it goes down my dear , yeah when will I get my wages? Er, yeah being your secretary ha, ha oh do you want me to post that letter? To that, that company er, yeah you can do I think it'll have to go down to the post office, I've write to Diane now don't forget to cross out the er proprietor proprietor no problem, do that then,and then I'll er, I'll hoover up , and go and have a bath Er? popped in to see Peter? Yeah, he's lying flat on his front, yeah, that's how he was asleep last night was it? That's how he was his leg was sticking out of er cover's last night, that's, tucked his leg back in got everything? yeah good feel for a round thing small round thing yeah, small round thing at the moment. You probably told me last night but I can't remember, I was just off Well you tell a bloke you won't get it while you're until the end of next week, cos I'm doing a bloke's spitfire, I ain't pissing around doing a flaming grill yeah you know, your problem then innit? I'd put phone down oh dear done a few panels yeah I shall rub it down tomorrow, it really cheesed me right off, I thought thanks a lot dad, I, I need a guide yeah book, I haven't got one, yeah I've got an I C I guide book yeah but it's not compatible, virtually the same but, but, the, the coat, primers and the, it's all, they're all called different, it's all different yeah you know haven't they got a coloured book then? Oh look , that's Roger yes Roger driving that Yes, they're closing that I told you it would yeah Roger's been on telly they'll make er they'll make er what's names out of that, er Units units out of that yeah good job I did leave weren't it? yeah I knew it would close yeah it was so obvious, cos they weren't spending no money on it, the place was in a right state yeah eh you like that don't you? I put a wing on that car Did you? yep It hasn't gone two yet, you haven't? You haven't me phew, what's that cooking? Oh sorry Can't you smell it? Can't you smell it? no, they have got, I mean I would of finished it if I didn't have to mess around with that car yeah ah? You should of finished it then No, well I had to do the car first didn't I? Yeah I'd considered buying it and all that, you know it don't take five minutes you know, and I took it for a test drive yeah er just down Water Road and back up again, and I talked to them, er, I see, I phone you and Stuart come in this morning yeah done a financial and er my er, this afternoon I had a guy come in with a Capri, bloody welding that thing needs doing, I don't think he'll get it done, so I was, I was nearly half an hour yeah oh thank you, I don't think I'll get that, too much for it and I got the guy I went out to see Lee he came in yeah I said to him, my missus knows you I don't know him this is bad as but er, who she then? I said er Lisa , so Alan , oh yeah, Charlie, I said that's right, yeah No, he started off with only small you know yeah, so anyway erm, he bought the car in to tell me that, garage down here, five hundred and forty eight pound labour right and that was put on another wing, save repairing the wing, put a new on, so what I did with mine is, I put on a new wing, right, and reduced the labour by sixty five quid to four hundred and five, I make plenty on the parts yeah I will, see he probably hasn't got as good as discount as me, so yeah five hundred and for , so have you got the job? He want's us to do it, apparently he's been recommended to me, I yeah oh yeah, my that's good yeah it is so er that's a sprayed bonnet, a brand new bonnet, spraying it yeah with primer on, spraying inside and the outside, taking off both the wings and bump bit where the bonnet goes on to the slam pan, gotta take the er the wings out, I mean the, the lights out anyway. yeah We'll take them out and throw them away and that's all within the maker of the er, of the wings, er take them out, throw them away, er take the bumper off, throw that away, right, get a new number plate, a new bumper right cos the bumper's got to come off anyway with the wings yeah there's no extra labour, I normally charge about a hundred and thirty pound for each wing, that's two hundred and sixty er eighty pound for the bonnet, well about a hundred pound for the bonnet, that's three hundred and sixty then er, forty five quid for the slam pan, that's it cut it all away, be off and done, about three days work what they charge for four hundred and thirty quid, he said bloody hell, so what I said to him is, I know you're gonna need a car, what I'll do is er, I'll get to work, I'll put it, I'll bring the car, you bring the car in beginning of the month, next month, right, said I won't be able to guarantee that I'll get it done in a week cos I've got other work booked in, but I'll have it in here which means I'll be able to do work to your car, right, and it's better me being able to do that, then it, it's sitting out outside your house and nobody touching it for a couple of weeks, now, I might have it for a couple of weeks, see and I'll be able to do it in my own leisurely time then yeah yeah, I work on these other cars and I'll be able to do that in the meantime he, what did he say about that? Yeah he says oh that's great, yeah that's fine, so I'll have to get it in soon because I won't be able to get him in till about for six months, yeah oh dear, a, alright for ha plus I'm gonna send the bill off to Angie yeah so hopefully she'll give me a cheque next week he doesn't get frightened so easily now does he? No Yeah ooh, yeah, ooh, ooh, ooh ah baby, good boy, a peep bows oh oh, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow wow , wow, wow, wow, wow, yeah, ah, ah, ah Had a go with the toilet door I yeah, you done a bit today, you haven't worn out the bed have you? yes great, painting your bed she's painting yeah, your mother mate, I oh dear, that fire is getting a bit cold now ain't it? yeah, it's nice a day then yeah or whatever Right, bit of muck weren't it? Bath tomorrow, leave you one tonight yeah Ooh Gonna get you ready for bed? Yep ah, yeah oh, you're right come on then big wey good night then Peter hand paper some more paper this afternoon done it, oh yeah, oh yeah, oh yeah, tell daddy what you did this afternoon the carpet Some people Yeah, we're gonna see the doctor tomorrow, yeah, mum's got to have a check up, yeah no, no point in it really New pot yeah, we'll have to be there about two minutes four why's that? so that I can be wee'd and weighed, if that's alright yeah Hurray, oh, er, no poo I don't believe it, hurray, done loads of them today haven't you? Well I won't lose much money on this Sierra about a hundred quid Yeah I can believe it , there, there, well she said, they've taken their teeth oh yeah but, no, it's a bit of dark room, it'll be alright once I've done this yeah what I'll probably do is take you out for a little while so you can go up and see Annie and all that, next week, not only a and that'll enable me to get on doing what I've got to do with spitfire and everything,spit spitfire's fine, I'll get that in I'll erm, erm I'd get insurance hadn't I? Yeah, well you can drive the Yugo for a little while until I get that done, I'll drive the Sierra, if you want Yeah well I've got to check my insurance as well, let them know paying through the business, company will get tax relief on that see, cos I am the boss, not like er I'm an employer, different. Come on you, ooh, come on, he loves watching his dad what,oh look at these oh dear, come here ooh, these are hard shape ain't they boy? Never mind Are they? Yeah, it's not worth getting some, no send them through , 'jama's What's this here? I know I've looked what? yeah, what the prices of them? They're one point eight G L Estate F reg, four thousand, two hundred, that's A B C D E, five year's difference, done four thousand, two hundred, two, eight hundred quid, well actually it's, our cars worth over a grand if I'd sprayed it up and put it on the market Ooh Peter, stop kicking I'd get about twelve hundred for it, thirteen hundred Paid them for it yet? Go on, into here, mum I'll go and make your bot, bot If you had your own cat as they're very territorial animals, I mean if they could see them off. Oh yeah. And they wouldn't come in onto to a property. A cat will make . Yeah. Don't get them out of there . No, occasionally you get them in the garden but chase them off. No. There was something, you know . Aha! Is that all it is? I thought it was later that! Yeah, I thought it was! How many more of those blank tapes you gotta go through? Have you recorded Diane yet? Er oh yeah. Yeah Diane and . Only done her once? Yeah yeah. Did she know? Mhm? Why shouldn't she know? Well she was . It isn't fair. Half the time I keep forgetting to switch it on! By the time to get it, switch it on, you think oh, it's gonna be too obvious! Can't it. Get Ann. now really. What? Sorry? Want a drink? Hello love ! Ha ! The tape people are collecting on Friday. Yeah. What do you think of this club? Oh cos I'm going up to the doctors as you know. I shan't be long there. Why? Got the .. Oh. Er and then I'm meeting Diane at your mum's. Oh yeah. Yeah ! Then she's gonna bring me home. And then I thought, oh I've gotta go down to the town haven't I? Said I'd perhaps leave Peter there with them while I go shopping. Perhaps you can run me back? Taking, taking mum with you? Well it's nice of Diane though, to offer to . When they bring that other car back, what we'll have to do to park Yeah. Okay. Yeah? is like he doesn't bother to reverse up, so he's got stuck doing that! Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Probably. You know where the Orion is? It's there. Yeah. The Sierra's that side of the well he's put the Sierra furthest away trying to get you to go round here. Leave the Sierra out here and go round this way . Aha. You're right actually. But, because of you were running late you see, it harasses . Twenty to five ! ! he didn't buy any stuff for your . Oh, I suppose I better go and do that ironing!. Have you dusted round here? Yeah! . That bloke little dairy bloke died ! No. No, it's ma , makes his job a bit easier down here, more worthwhile I should say. Mm. And a bit of fun. And he got an Astra. This bloke's Astra cos that's our late night . Mm. The Astra. .Yeah that's the only way I can see it trying to use those and have them back on Friday.. Yeah. No. They've opened next door.. . The old boy with the Capri van service thing whoever he is! Has he? Yeah, he's in hospital. What's the matter with him? Well I told you, he was taken away! Well, yeah, Michelle told me. What did they take him away for, because he's gone? Yeah, that's it. . Yeah they are. Cos you were saying about that Golf. ? No there'll be two. Ever since erm mum died, that was the start. He's lonely! I think, it's better in the house. No. no. I said oh I was so cross! I said how would they like to be like that, all the time! Yeah. I said they won't bloody lock you up!a dog like that! It's not a natural dog. They can't handle it. No. It's a pet. A family . Definitely! ! Is it? Knee high! Running about! It must be bored stiff! Oh yeah, it's only knee high! I've never seen it. Terrible ! I saw it once. That's when it jumped up cos the owner came out to give it some grub. Jesus,! Yeah. . Disgusting! Is she taking him out again? Yeah. Terrible! That's why I was . About a dog. But it's not fair to the animal, to keep it! I mean why do they It ain't! bother to keep it? Ay? What number was that place ? Yeah. They was having a complaint . Yeah. Complain . Better they won't do anything ! Yeah. Well, in that case I'm gonna do something about it love that Cos I ain't having no dog there yapping all,a , while I'm out there! Go round and see them. People like that ain't got no brains anyway! I think it's a bit too much really! I mean i , if it was more content it wo , would be better. Ooh yeah, if the If it had been out for a walk or you know? Or Yeah. was allowed to go inside. . One died ay? I wonder how long that one lives? Dunno. bloody dog! Oh! Oh, anyway Come on away! Leave your mum in peace! Talk to me, here are talk to me. Here are, what's this? Oh and I've got the ain't I? Yeah you sit playing there. Oh dear! Go in, and while you're on the phone. Got a . Oh, that's good! That's pleased me! Why do I get off the train oh yeah ! Yeah, and you'll I've gotta pick Ben up from casualty. I think they're up here! No it's not! rich!. What? He'll be rich when you get home! Hi mum! Is dad there? Oh alright, he's not gonna like this very much but I've gotta Ben I know, in there ! to casualty! Yeah! Don't shout! He's erm now he's been . . You should learn ! Yeah, they told me to phone you up,, they gotta bring him in. I know. He's not gonna wanna do it though is he? Ah! Yeah. It's okay then, I'm, I'm at Ah, ah! my next door neighbours. Ah! Okay? Ah! Ah! Ah! I ,. I can get pregnant. cut Ah! his head open! Well not in . Mm,cut their heads a bit open. He managed before and yet each of the , I had to take him Did he? to hospital and he had to have a stitch. Here are then. You doing the shape? Yes. My nice shapes. Otherwise they might pressure me all the time . Yeah don't you think? Oh that's not bad is it? No, oh, oh, oh, not not so bad! No. No, don't get that one, it's a red one that goes in there. That, red ah Red hole. It can go in there. That goes like that. You . Ah. Oh alright, okay when you're ready. In there. Okay. Goes in there. I ,I I ,I ,Er, what about that one now? That one goes in number two, doesn't it? Okay thanks! Er Where's number two? They were all in they were all on the side! Which one's number two? in the morning. I went out to bring the washing in and he'd got them in his mouth! That's two in, something goes in there. Number one. No. Okay. That's a red one. Right thanks! Bye! Red one. Yeah, in there. Number two. Right come on! Granddad will be up here Ah! Ah! Ah! Yeah. Yeah. Hopefully I should be having a car soon. I know. Come on! You gotta go in Granpy's car. Okay! Okay! You gotta take, you can't take him with you. No, sorry! In Gran In Granddad's car? Come round another day and play with it. . Thanks. It's alright . I hope you get on alright? . Oh! You'll grow up, and one . Right. I should be having a car soon anyway. Aha. . . See you! I hope you get on alright! Car. Want a hand with those seats? I, I took them straight round. Ha!.are you?. Ay er! There we are! Good luck! You didn't have a very long sleep did you? He goes, well can you give us the er Estimate back. estimate back? So you know. I says er yeah alright then. So I went looking for it and couldn't find it! He says, can you post it to us? I says, yeah alright then. And I'll post it to him. Stuff it! Mm. They're going it! That's why they want that! Oh! I were fuming!, ready to punch him I was! We started arguing! Hah! Ha! I think he was quite shocked actually! You don't want one of them . That's it. , well the job's worth more than ninety quid, I said, I don't do it for ninety quid! Go and shove it! Mm. I says, apart from which, mine was the lowest quote! And you knock me down even further! Ha , have we got that letter of ? No. Oh! Well it'll been in on the table. .Now then get you change! Have a wee in a pot. There. Yeah, finish off while you're doing a . Okay. Went to my dad's workshop. Yeah. how to seal bits properly. It's on a slant for some reason! Bulky. Mm. Everything else looks perfect, just slant it's different to what it was before. Put it down like that, it goes like that. So you've got to pull it on just before put the seal on. funny like to see how he did it. Mm. Like that way. this morning! Yeah? Mm!as good as what he took to bed. Mummy warmed up the porridge, and so did Peter. Got it in his hair, all over his face! Did he? Yeah. And when I went and got him up this morning his legs were out the bottom of the cot again! And ! Urgh!! Which means the same leg's hanging round. And he got one arm out of his jamas ! Like Yeah? he'd done it! Yeah. Didn't you? Mm. So we've been up for some time cos the arms are wet where he'd been sucking it! Hadn't it? I saw him this morning and he were doing press up! . Ah! Bit of crust for you boy! Oh, mummy needed that! Yeah, nice sandwich! Woh! Lovely!scrambled eggs and bread. Has he? He eat a whole dish full! Oh I know! Decided not to your little help. Little podger! Well I need to be doing more! Oh yeah. Well he did about three laps of the lounge this morning. Didn't you? Oh lovely! Yeah, that girl was saying, apparently there used to be glass in front of that there there used to be a glass cabinet attached to the wall there. Oh! Yeah! ? Dunno, I mean there's been nothing like that in here. Said it was all gone when we came in! She said, well they must of took it all out! You can tell there was something there. Yeah. I think well we knew there was something there because erm I think you can tell. She said well he took it for the glass. The council. Yeah. They're all bastards ! Yeah. Bunch of plankers! Aha ha! Yeah, they've stripped this house! Yeah. Whatever's left here, they've stripped it! Well they didn't take the gas fire did they? No, that's cos it's old clapped out thing! Yeah. I see it's been disconnected as though somebody was gonna take it. They always disconnect them. Mm. Like they did to my house, that was disconnected. Yeah I know, but if it's council, but they got that Gas board gas board . Yeah. Yep give them a fiver. So he's gonna leave the gas fire. Hey! There were glass up there ay? Yeah. Bet it looked quite nice! Yeah. Did you tell her how we're getting on? Yeah.. Oh!mummy! You finish it off! Is there ? Mhm mm! Yeah Yeah Yeah! I am ! Mum mummy I want yeah,No, no ! No, no! Mm. Nana! Mum They really wanted the damn work on that car! Does it? Yeah. No, it's just something! Yeah. I can pick them up pretty cheap anyway. Sorry? Pick them up pretty cheap. Oh right! Oh! Did you get your ? I, I'm . I'm gonna find out how much rear seat belts are. Yeah. Brand new ones. I think you can get them pretty cheap, can't you? Should be able to. They're not like er a front one are they? Yeah. Cos they've gotta be pretty , definitely need them. For kids. That seat in there, does that fit facing the driver or facing the front of the passenger rear? Facing front. Ba! They do. Go on the front seat. Oh just keep fitted in the back. Yeah, that's where it needs fitting. Oh yeah, I won't fit it in the front! No! Yeah I know! So we can sit in the front then. Yeah. Oh ah!oh ah! Ah! You haven't got the wallpaper? Sorry? Have you got the wallpaper? Gonna have a go at it? Yeah. No. Are you gonna try and get the plumbers out? No I'm not. Oh! . I got some . Have you actually wallpapered now then? Er yeah, we've nearly finished. Oh great! Yeah, it's brilliant! Good! Have you made it look nice! Er no Cos it's up like patterned on the on like, two walls and then we've got like like a balloon different balloon erm wallpaper Yeah. And some of it's gone up alright, but he put a couple of strips up last night and it all bubbled and then he I heard him this morning shwooh! And ripped it off the wall ! Yeah, well if it bubbles , it's only air, you could prick it with a stick! Yeah but, no you see the wallpaper actually stretched! Oh has it? So I think when it How, how does he get on wallpapering, alright? Alright , yeah! I don't seem to worry about things . He did it once before Oh! You know,? And it won't go round the corners! So I said well you don't go round corners! Oh, no, no it won't stick properly! Oh,! So I haven't and it putting down properly, it will go round corners! Rather than catching it! But I mean, no, he's done alright! But er I mean I'm not you know, there to criticise him I know, If I can bloody do it so that's that! Yeah. Otherwise you'll find you'll do it yourself ! Well I did all the paint work. Yeah. All the glossing and that and er he's done the wallpapering. Mm. So, that was good! Listening to them, I mean, they're so frightened . Shall have get some more shouldn't we? Well let's have a walk up.. Oh yeah. You're doing the splits young man! Oh yeah! Shall I go and sit him there, by the fire or He'd go out without the ! Well yeah , that's true enough with him ! So that's true enough! Ha ! We, we made a will last night. Did da , did Melvin tell you? He said something about a will! Oh, there's my car keys! Had the . I must have threw them away again! Oh! Do you often throw them away then? Yeah ! If I , I'll throw them away! Cos I sort of tend to collect the sweety papers in the same pocket. Aha. It empties the pocket and I thought the car keys were in there, my car keys. Oh. And erm thrown, thrown them away, out of my pocket! And I didn't think of looking there! Had my car keys in there. Silly mummy! Yeah! She's scatty! Silly! Ay? Scatty batty! Can I have that then? I bought that along with me, just in case they were gonna . I thought if it makes it growl only . just a seat belt Oh not much! So you still see the midwife one week, and one come with ? Yeah , or it's up to you, you can use see that doctor all the time if you like. And then they just leave it to you. Do they? Say, do you wanna see the doctor or the Yeah. midwife? They al they do it alternate at our place. Oh do they? Yeah, one visit it's the midwife, so next it's the doctor. Yeah. Yeah. They weigh you every time? Oh yeah. Yeah, then you've gotta . Are you alright? And take you to Well you've got four or five after the last time ! Wha ha ! Oh you've gotta And ! to our ante-natal and I mean, they all get on. It's good when you get on. Yeah, you know. And you doing it and sometimes I have to say, I'm sorry about this but I've, I've, I've,I've gotta go to the ! But Yeah, and says and don't worry about that. you'll do it it all in one go! My blood pressure's right down! Because I you know? Yeah. Yeah , that's alright then. Yeah, that was alright. So in the end though, I thought I'd daren't change in public! Go round ! He said oi did you back on with it he says! Peeking round like that! Oh no! I said alright, you don't need to rub it in I said, I know! And I said I can't wait to go on a diet,! Oh alright then and shut up! He said I, he said I didn't offend you did I? I said, no, she'd know if you've offended , he said, cos I'm sure you'd say something! He said, oh, you'd probably hit me! Yeah. So I said, yeah, that's right! Did you ? Oh! Yeah. Oh let's go and Hello! sit in there. Sit on a proper chair! Yeah ! What does Kevin do? Ah? What does Kevin do? What does he do? What do you mean, work wise or What does he do at home? Oh he, well he potters around and goes slowly! Like a bloody tortoise! I told you I sat round there once and it took him an hour a whole hour, and I'm, I'm not exaggerating to fit or to put up half a sheet of wallpaper! And it wasn't the full length of the wall because they got a dado rail it was half. It took an hour! One sheet? One sheet! I was getting so frustrated! I was gonna say, Kevin, do you want me to do that? I'll do it! I'll put it up! I was at eight months pregnant at the time. You were? Yeah. When was that? Last year! Look dear! Can't you remember that one? Yeah. It really did. It took him ages! Think I remember you telling me. Yeah. It'll take him about three weeks to do the decorating in that house! I mean, What wallpapering you mean? said. Yeah, wallpapering. The border, well I dunno about the bor . Yeah, and she did see rather surprised that I'd finished one wall! Bloody hell Melvin! I know! Yeah, well I didn't know what to say! Just get on with it. Yeah. You know as quick as you can but do it as neat as you can. Yeah. You know? I'm just a bit pissed off with the way the wallpaper's hanging! It appears to be the white stuff. The plain one. Cos it's I was good up to around the window. Brilliant there! From there it goes fucking shitty! Then it goes good again! So Weird! . I'm changing paste anyway. I'm gonna try a different paste. I should definitely take the paste down. I know. But I go for them cos of the bright yellow packaging! Er, that was Solvite. Solvite. Solvite. What you gonna have, the Polycell? I had Polycell for this, yeah. Yeah. Try the Do it well with Polycell! Then it's buy again! Ah! Might make that. Yeah I know! Got to get some. Mm. Plenty of time for that. Is preparation work boring? Yep. Hell of a lot! Oh! More than that one! As plaster goes I don't dare! I reckon . Oh well! It won't. What needs doing in the toilet downstairs to the ceiling? You asked him to leave your on the Put wood, put woodwork in there. Oh, yeah. Right, the paint need coming off. Been painted a lot! I know! Peeling paint. Peeling You need to chip it the corner. off? Yeah. Scrape that off. I think it might need burning off because if you leave it on it's gonna be a bit oddish! I don't know if I artex, artex wood? I don't know. No.. If I could artex the wood, it's a lot easier cos all you've gotta do is just scrape it and leave it. Scrape all the loose bits off. I don't know what that wood's, the wood's there for anyway! It's part of the stairs! Oh is it? Yeah. Part of the stairs. houses aren't they? Put up quick! Oh I'll have a toilet in there. There's no room in there. You'll be , cos there's no television so there's no gonna need all these sockets! All these sockets are added. It has been wallpapered. Since. In here it has anyway. Yeah. Just upstairs I think. That's if it had any sockets upstairs! I'd like to know where they were. Ones that they took out. That a bit knotted! Can't . This is gonna be a hard room to decorate! Wallpaper's gonna be stuck! I would just paint over it. No. I'll wallpaper it. Oh!gonna need an ambulance,get bashed about! To wallpaper it! I don't mind if you don't! Yeah, I don't mind this painted. If the er what's gonna get damaged wallpaper wise? Well, if somebody walks round with a pen or a pencil, or crayons. That won't be just si , it's gonna be about a year or so's time! Yeah I know! So, I mean, what's the point of you know making it look really, really nice and you know, all you could is just slap a coat of paint over it! Honestly, I think you'd be silly to decorate it! Yeah, you reckon? Yeah I really do. Do it when they're older? Yeah. Then when we can choose you know? I'm painting the woodwork though! Oh yeah, woodwork painted! You know, change that to white. You know, frames and skirting boards. Oh yeah, do all the woodwork and that, but just paint, literally paint over the walls. I mean it'll be fresher cos the paper's not bad is it? No, not really. Then er really I think it'll be the best thing, you know, just in case you do get crayon and felt tip over the walls and that! And then you haven't ruined wallpaper that you've gone out and bought especially. Decorating that room though! Oh yeah, decorate that and the hall. Do that one next. Yeah. But I mean, this is gonna be like the family room so, I mean, it is gonna get knocked about a bit! Yeah, that's gonna be our room! Yeah. You've done to there. Well at the moment it's a dry room come tool room Nellie the Elephant wooh ooh! Want a cup of tea? No thank you dear, I've just had one. Okay then. So how's John now? Ay? How's John now? Got a shocking cold! Oh has he? if anything, without in it. Eh ah! Yeah, who is it? It's Nellie the Elephant! Do you usually read upside down? Oh oh yes! Anyway! ain't got the farm baby animals on the farm. They were so the cabbages at Haven't ? at the er airport place. Oh the airport! When we went to go to Alabama. They've made it so lovely. Yeah! And when there was yes, she said and all over the place Texas like it. Oh dear! So I miss him, do you? Yeah. He was a big old Yeah. Oh yeah. at the side. I didn't know, thought it had been so built up. Oh! And that's the square in New Orleans, typical American innit? Yeah. They were dancers in a shopping centre. Oh really! They were all gingerbreads weren't they? Different countries. Oh yeah. Who's that? That's us. Ah ha ha ! And every and then every instrument on there every quarter of an hour the instruments all played! Really! It were lovely! Ooh sorry! Have we lost it? Go for a different picture shall we? All the albino crocodile. Yeah they bite! Yeah. They bite at erm alligators? Alligator. Alligators. And they take them five in a nest and they were all er males, of course. And they are every time we went . white. Ooh! Ooh are they lions? That one. Ooh, a deer! A baby deer! And on the ta they only ta erm and then they won't let you photograph them, and so you have you have to just do it and Well I suppose they'd charge you wouldn't they? That's what they're probably doing. That's Chicago. The streets of Chicago. City. Yeah. And that was the fall at Clear Water Bay. And over here was the sea Mm. and it showed the dolphins were swimming Oh really! You could see all the dolphins out? Oh yeah. Ooh! Ooh! Aren't we taking any notice of you? I'm very sorry! I know! Yeah! Aren't we taking any notice of you? Well I'm very sorry sir! Let's find your pussy cat . Nice pussy cat somewhere. Got to have a lot of pussy cats . Ah look! There's pussy cats. Look! There's a pussy cat! And Sammy. Yeah. And a guinea pig! Oh God ! I thought that were quite nice. Yeah. Little baldy! Eh eh eh ee! Oh that's nice! They'd taken off their ties haven't they? Yeah. Honestly! The butcher said to mum, now we feel ever so fed up! Who's cuts your hair? It is lovely? A young butcher. Oh yeah! I said Mandy! Thank you very much, ha ! I say! Oh Derek ! That must of the Sunday Christmas is, wouldn't it? Yeah. He looks don't he, Mark? Yeah. And that was his American suit weren't it? Yeah. Er ay! His too big trousers! Ee ee ee! You're trying to grab the bottle aren't you? Yeah. Blimey look at the size! You can see, sort of Yeah. can't you? Is that the colour he chose? Yeah. He looks, sort of ghastly don't he? Yeah. Ee ee ee eh! Oh ! The open! Hello daddy! Hi! That one must of been the day the boys come up from school Yeah. mustn't it? Yeah. Yes oh yeah, there's the bag there and all that. Ooh yeah. Ah that's nice, that one! Reading the paper. Yeah! Aren't you? We got you reading the paper! Yeah, we have. Ooh ooh! That's when you talk to him and he looks up you see and he goes Yeah. Ahhh! If he hadn't of picked his drink up that would of been good! Yeah, that'd of been lovely! Yeah. Cos I let him play with it. Kangaroo. Kangaroo. See he looks ghastly in there don't he? Yeah! Er er er er! And you see Lyndsey just ready to jump up cos he pinched her bottom, Alan. Weren't interested in Peter and me. Yeah, tries to get out. Oh that's pretty innit? I just did, it's ever so pretty today, it's really now. I just used them up because I wanted to make the camera to have a new film in for dad. Oh. Cos the daffodils are coming all down here now, Are they? , so he cut it. Don't chew it! You don't wanna chew it! Yeah, don't chew it! It's not nice to chew! Look at the pictures instead. Look, a pussy cat! Let's see what's on the next page. Ooh bunny rabbit, look! A doggy! Seen the solicitor? Yeah. Woof woof! Woof woof! Where's Er the doggy then? Woof woof! Here are, do you wanna have a look? Woof woof! Daddy Yeah. quite busy then? Woof woof! You and Peter. Is that nice? Woof woof! All down the front of her! Did he? Woof woof! He tried. What's that there? So she was driving was she? Yeah, she had a red she's got a red Sierra? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah seen her. I told her! There's a pussy cat! And the pussy cat goes!! meow! Meow! What's a pussy cat do? Mewow! And look, this is the donkey! And the donkey goes ee or, ee or, ee or, ee or! I bet he thinks, silly old woman don't you? Well, I suppose you . Here's Sammy look! Meow! Meow! And what's this? Woof woof woof! Woof woof woof! It does. Woof woof woof! Like Toby does. Woof! Woof! Ay? Woof woof! Ooh, I'd better go back to work hadn't I? Where's this then? America? Yeah. Yeah, that was the swimming pool at Clear Water. Some upside down ones in here. I didn't notice, just looked at them. They were, they were all upside fir And that How much do I owe you Anne? Eleven pound and sixteen Oh bloody hell! pence. Sand in here ! That's everything? Mm? That's for the lemonade and that? Oh no, I ain't thought about it? Erm, one ninety nine plus vat, I think, yeah . Leave it till I see you cos I I've left it in my coat pocket. Five seven Not bad! Eleven pound Big ones aren't they? Yeah. How much you want? Do you want more money out for him? I should get with daddy's cheque Yeah. I expect! Cor! Three, four , five, that's ten. Actually that ten P is going in a pot. Eleven pound they got ten Ain't got no money on me! Fifty P. It's at work! Can I owe you sixty P ! Oh terrible! I shan't be able to go to work this afternoon, now I know that! Thank you. Ooh! Well I can give you loads of coppers? Ooh ah! Oh dear! I told the butcher I wouldn't be going next week. Yeah. They said if you had over twenty five pounds worth of meat you know, money wise he would deliver it free. Oh yeah. That means you'll have to pay yourself next week, I won't be here. Ooh, I thought I'd got someone else to give me some money! Do you know what they've got on next week or not? has gone on the blink again! Oh no! And you can't just go and buy one can you? Or get it delivered? Oh, it's such a bloody fuss! Do you know what I told Co-op to stuff it! And the electricity board come, no one come until next week! I'm having this afternoon if he'd have come here. Yeah. I used to feel it had. Oh. I daren't leave them that, dare I? You lost your book! pinched You ain't got many half of them! Yeah, I did. They're nice aren't they? Yeah, it is nice. Blub, blub blub! Yeah. Don't you? Ay? We were coming to see you last night, and then all day so he said it weren't fair to go anywhere like he was. Mm. He, you go down town.. Come on. oi! Well I feel uncomfortable so I don't I think it was, she was want you going though! Yeah,and talk to somebody can't you ! Yeah. Can't you? Yeah! Yeah! Yeah! ? No Yeah! It's at home. Yeah! Boo boo, boo boo boo! Is lunch ready? No, it's not! No, you don't seem to go straight up about that, ain't I? Oh, about my freezer? Doo doo doo dee doo doo doo doo! Doo doo doo! Doo doo doo doo doo doo boo boo bee! Do you like that? Ay? They're lovely! Wedding bells to do this one. How's the, how's the decorating? Still going? Oh yeah, it's finished! Ooh that's lovely! It's all been done. So when you moving? You're not ready for Tim to do your other big ceiling are you? No, I think Mel No , I'm gonna do it. He's gonna do it. that's alright then. Erm And I found out I can artex alright now, so I'm gonna do it. I do , well I don't blame you! Any Just do the any you do yourself get . is better innit? Yeah. Nope, finished? We'll probably go, if he comes from the station, I will come round. Bye bye darling! Say, see you! Thanks for the book! We're gonna go and see about, see if Currys have got the thing in. Oh. Gotta send him and Tim down to fetch it. And they'll have my old one in and give me the extra bread for it. What? Did you wanna come with me? Get your kit then! Get your coat! Get your coat! Yeah! Bet you're a good boy aren't you? Do you want your coat on? Go on! It's here. .Nan's gone to dinner with a parson today, for a bowl of soup and dry bread roll! Hooray! At nan's! At nan's, yeah. Very nice! And they had a lovely dinner yesterday, roast lamb, she said yesterday! Ooh, and trifle for dessert! Mm. And Robert sees her now, and he waves to her. Oh does he? Yeah. Yeah cos she thought he were quite shy, but she said now he acknowledges her and that so she's quite pleased. Yep, oh yeah! And he he's always the first one that'll eat up his dinner and got his hand up ready for seconds! Oh right,yeah ! So bye bye now! Bye bye! Bye bye! Mummy's gonna leave you! Mummy's gonna leave you! Yeah! She's not is she! She won't do that! Oh Mickey's here. Okay? Ahhh! When I saw it, I thought that were horrible! feet ain't it? Mm, they're alright. So. They're not black, black are they? No, No. they're, sort of They're better. Mine were great big bla , black ones! Not like those type. Yeah, we had those. Sixty P a pound! Really! How much? Was it? Sixty no, sorry, sixty nine P a pound! God that's cheap! Was that in Higham In Higham yeah. That's quite a nice little fruit shop innit? Yeah. Next to Robin's Not bad. I liked that way you'd had your car , I tell him he done you down! Get it from Robin did you? Yeah. That bloke probably took it for a ride he said. No he ain't! It's alright. Well Melvin did some work for them. , that's twenty. Sorry! Shaun used to work with him. Yeah I know, yeah. on the lorries, didn't they? It's worth it. He was going to work for fifteen hundred weren't he? Wouldn't pay that for him. You see , now he does work for them, so I mean, if he ripped him off, yeah, he can get with that, yeah. type of thing,just now. Ohhh! So you see your sister-in-law over there then? No. Oh yeah! She didn't say hello! But John said, when she's stupid enough to be trying to sell that house and who'd buy that thing, stuck up the end of that road? Not many people would! Well then, when they went there it were, it were grass fields all round them, weren't it? Out the back Oh yeah. and round her. And John said to her, and that's what were happening, they were building. No they're not! They said, not they're not! We're gonna have green fields around us! Well I knew they were building there years ago! And by time they be bought signed the contract and moved in, they was out to plotting the garden weren't they? You could but you can't tell them can you, anything no? They knows it all! They'll find it harder to sell. They'll find it hard to sell they will. Well in any case they're gonna lose money on it, cos they won't get Cor yeah! sixty nine, nine seven five on it, what they give for it will they? Is that what they give for it, sixty nine thou ? sixty nine thousand! What! I wouldn't pay that! Not up there! I'd move to nicer areas for that! I bet you there is! This house is bigger than theirs! Is it? Ain't you ever been in it? No! It's horrible! Mm. Cos you, where your lounge is you got a window and it's up up there. it's up there! And it's the same, about Definitely don't like that! that depth, and it's along there. That's all the like the window you got in one area. And the, and then the next door,Close, is a, a detached house. So yo ,yo , you got no light much in it. And tha , that's sort of, it's a, Yeah. window sill on there, say, and then this comes down and they got French windows at the bottom. And the kitchen, you ain't got a kitchen door, to get from out your kitchen, to outside! Have you? No. How do you go outside? You gotta come through your carpet way and through your French windows or out your front door, ain't you? Yeah. You haven't got a How back door! haven't they? No! No! They ain't, have they? I've never see,the back door. No. Wouldn't work! No back door. I would imagine i ,i , if they went to look at it for fire and, or anything like that you'd be in the wrong cos you couldn't get out the kitchen. Yeah, go out the back door. You think about it, it's never, I mean we had to have a special fire door put on cos our we go through to our garage. Yeah. Special fire door and a special seal round it. You need a door to get out the back, don't you ay? Don't wanna use the French doors! can you? I know. Don't wanna use the French doors all the time wouldn't you? No. They do! Assuming it's cold. Well in tha , in any case as well i it's if you've got any rubbish to take outside Yeah! you gotta Yeah. take it through your house don't you? Yeah. You know, your kitchen waste? Yeah. Bugger that! Well the . No, this house is bigger than theirs! Lot bigger. And we ain't got no room. No! The only thing they've got is a Oh well it makes this house tidy and junky! Yeah. The only thing they've got Beg your pardon ! No! No, but once you get yourselves decorating and you've put your things out anyway That's it. you're gonna be so much better ain't you? Yeah. I mean, you've got so much Yeah but, we decided stuff . we decided we gotta get a u ,u ,u ,er a bedroom units A one. Mm. So we'll, we'll survive with what we've got we'll get bedroom units a little later on. Probably get one for the little room, probably get er I think you gotta put I dunno. cupboards up there once they're painted. Get one down here as well. That's it. Once they're painted your cupboards will be able to put stuff in them and that won't they? Oh yeah. You know, you can organise them. Yeah. Well we're taking the cupboard in our room I think we're probably taking that out. Gonna take it out because then we can move the bed over to that wall. Yeah. So we can arrange the furniture decently in the room. Maybe have to get a fitted fitted unit down the side. Fitted one. Yeah. That's what we want. Bye darling! Bet he thinks See you Ann! Yeah. Bye, see you Bye! Ann! Thanks a lot! Don't let me forget that you know Yeah. before I go. Ta ta! . Yeah. Ta ta! Bye! How are you alright? Yeah fine,. Ay! Hey hey! Ah! Ah! What's the matter with you? Ah! Eh! Er ah ah ! You're a good lad ain't you mate? Annie's been spoiling you again has she? Ay? Annie been spoiling you?at work. Eh! Er two to three litres. Yeah. Got a can ain't we? More like that . Did she? You can tell . in between weren't it? The big units Oh so what time are they due, about two ? Yeah it fell down the side there. I'm sorry!tried that! No! It's only water! I knew something was gonna happen. You, stop laughing! You may laugh ! What? Black one. No, I haven't seen one. Ah! Ah Ahhh! Ahhh! He's tired. He's tired. . Ian know he owes that or what? . I'm go , I'm gonna be . Oh yeah! Anne saying I'm tidy, ha! You can Yeah, and you didn't want me to do it. Yeah, it was . . Ah! Yeah but that's the sort of thing my mother would come out with! And mean it! Oh she'd mean it, yeah! Come on buddy, lets take you up the path ay? Ay? Come on then. Going for a little walkies! Come on then! Go for a walkies! Wrote a letter to er Presentation Media. Yeah, yeah you told me. Told them. Yeah, you told me yeah . And I had come round! That old ! Yeah. Turn round and sold the . You did. What? Ohhh, I was stupid I was! What was he saying then? He, he come in about that quote for nine for remember Mr Yeah. the brake tip job? Yeah. Erm he come in about that so we wrote a letter saying that I won't do the job for ninety pound, but I'll stick to the original He can have . That's right, yeah. Yeah. Two hundred and thirty quid. Yeah. And er so he comes round and he says er why won't you do it for ninety quid? I said, so I've seen the job and I says er and I don't think it's worth doing for ninety quid. I'll do it for a hundred and thirty quid no more! If you don't like it, fuck off! Yeah. I were fuming I was! I'm standing there the silly bloke, he stood near where the gas equipment was and I was standing there both hands clenched ready for him to start saying something! Yeah. I was, cos I was gonna have him! I was! He were a right wanker! Cor you! And er, he turned round er he was very polite I must admit kept his cool and Well cos had to be didn't he? Yeah. Bigger than me! Yeah. Big bloke! Yeah. He was very big bloke! That wouldn't of worried you! Oh no way! So anyway erm he turned round and said er well quote like that and you're legally bind to do it. I says, no I'm not! Cos I ain't signed anything! No ! He says this is a binding contract. I says no it ain't I says I ain't signed anything! He says, that was done over the phone! I said Yeah. to you on the phone that I had not seen the job and that I said yes alright knowing I hadn't seen the job, also that you knew that I hadn't seen it and if I didn't agree with it, then I was gonna change it, and I've changed it! Yeah. Then he started on he started tutting, the old , I jus sa I just carried on working, I just slammed the Citreon on cranked that up and er he started going on about oh this is the price and everything. I just turned round and says mine was the cheapest price anyway! I noticed the other quote was over two hundred flaming quid, and you've knocked me down! I said fuck off out of here! Yeah. It's quite good that that chap had actually showed you the right quote weren't it? Yeah, cos yeah. Yeah. And that, anyway, he then says er er er er he said, he said something like I weren't really listening. Yeah. I says I'll Gods our original er our authorisation. I says, yeah, and I couldn't find it could it? I says oh, it must be at home! Anyway er I said he says, well can you post it to us? I said, yeah alright I'll post it to you. So he wanted it back. Yeah. So er gets into work today no, yesterday afternoon and he says, have you found it? I says, yeah, I've found it. He says er well I'll come along and pick it up. I says, yeah, that's fine! So he came along this morning and picked it up! Banged on the door. I could see who it was through the plastic bit. Open up the door and he said hello I went Werh er er! And he says er what do you say, he said er that's good innit having a big knocker there? He says er anybody or anything he says er you can't let them in can you, well they won't, they can't come in can they? I didn't answer him! I found the letter and he went. Yeah. And that's it. So what's he gonna do about that then? Well he can't do a thing about it! I know. He knows he can't ! He's got the car! You know perhaps he could of on. That's insurance company. Well they're such pigs aren't they! Ahhh! Yeah, well tha , they've dropped themselves right in it now! They have! In actual fact, what you wanna do now is to er perhaps have a little er letter writing to Avon. Yeah. Tell them what you think of them. And er let them yeah let Yeah do. them know what sort of, how have behaved. Yeah. Yeah. Can I do it? So complete with threats! And er just tell them that er the way they've behaved, that you thought the way to I mean though innit? Well You thought the way they behaved was er despicable! Well, it's the way he spoke on the phone in the first place! Yeah. Er when he wanted to knock it down. Yeah. You know, I was only been working there a week, well two weeks! Yeah. Something like that. Yeah but you must complain to Avon though! Cos Avon's a big insurance company. And I've done I know, I've had I've done lots of work for them in the last couple And I've done work for them of years. already! Yep. Separate from Quadling Yeah yeah. That's right. Now, and he come their assessor Yeah. looked at the car, and said do it! Yeah. Well No hassle whatsoever! That's right, yeah. Right, well if give me their address, then we can get a letter. Yeah you've got address. Yeah, it's at at er That's it, Wentworth. Wentworth. Oh right. Yeah. Oh well, you know you can draft a letter up Oh I will! Yeah, just say that you were very She'll love me! disappointed with the way their agents, i.e. Quadling er have been behaving! Dealing , yeah. And er er also mention the fact that er er you know for a fact or, or, you know that er the other quotes that er put in a bill, put in a bill for a er about a hundred pound more than what I did, or whatever, whatever Mm. it was! And er they'll know this and er Oh yeah! then, then just tell them the facts you know? Yeah. And also mention that er this bloke came round and issued a offered er int , er intimidation and threats! Legal threats as well! Yeah, and some days you need to . Yeah. And er you know put it down in writing because that way Avon will then se see and the , hang on! What's Quadling playing at here! We're not having that! Yeah. We're not having this! Yeah. And also state that over the years er your father used to run the business done hundreds of jobs for Avon Insurance at, and er also you yourself have done jobs for Avon Insurance before who have never ever had any trouble whatever so ever! Like er you know, with any of the work we've done No. er it's always been er guaranteed i.e. if a customer was not satisfied, then one hundred percent we will rectify whatever it is they're not satisfied with. Mm. We always maintain that our word is our bond all of our work. And then to be treated er as out and out er criminals, like this Quadling had done with us is just beyond all bounds of having reasonable Mm. business sense! Yeah. But wha but when he'd said, turned round and said, oh it's a legal contract! I'd tell him It's not! to fuck off! Not over the phone. Spoken as in but it's you know You've gotta sign something. I know. But that's intimidation that is, threats That's right. at you. Okay, yes I agreed for the er the price but I said that I haven't seen the work. I hadn't seen Okay. the job. I've, I've quoted for the job. That's right. I says okay I'll agree to it but I wanna se , I haven't seen it, so how do I know? Yeah. You know that's what I said to him on the phone! Oh we'll remember that! By the way, I've told you I got charged er fifteen pounds did I? Oh I told you Mel, did I? Yeah. And ten pounds from the bank! Cos I was twenty five pence overdrawn! So I wrote a stinking letter to them! A one of the one of the sentences,, how dare you authorise the withdrawal of fifteen pounds from account without prior notification! Or at least having the decency and good manners to at least let me know what you'd done! Yeah! And er, anyway I got this terrific letter back! You should, well granddad was there about half an hour reading it! It was er one foolscap plus of, of words you know, explaining what, what they'd done and all this and why they'd done it ! They credited you? And yeah, they've gone and re-credited me for the fifteen pound! Yeah! Yeah. Great! Bit over the top innit? Fifteen quid for twenty five pence! Well then, no, what it is they've charged for each Yeah. cheque that you Yeah. you do about a quarter. I wouldn't of minded, like I said to the bloke er if he, if I'd been er a hundred pounds overdrawn or fifty quid overdrawn or something like that, I wouldn't of minded so much because I knew Yeah. that I would be overdrawn. Mm. And I'd know that I'd incurred that expense. But er but a mere twenty pe pence! I thought, it's an insult my flipping intelligence! Yeah. That's right. But it was , you know. Well anyway I got this lovely letter back! Oh well! So letter and er and evening compiling it has er gained me my fifteen pound back! Yeah. No it doesn't hurt to write a few letters. Old bloke came round today. Oh David! Yes. Cor he did half stink of booze! Oh it's Yeah, apparently he had a row with his Mrs ex-Mrs wife. Yeah. He had a row with his new wife . So why did he come round and see you? Dunno. Start again on booze! Bought a Volvo, T reg forty quid! Did he? Well if, if he's got an M O T on it he'll be able to run it until the M O T runs out November. runs out. Oh well he can run until then, then and just take it out to and leave it there. He's done it up. Has he? He's doing it up. Yeah. And what are they doing about it, nothing! I reckon it ought to be compulsory that. Like a car needs to go in for the M O T, you've gotta Mm, you've gotta have your eyes tested. for your eyes. Yeah. In Germany you have to carry, if you wear glasses, you have to carry a spare pair of glasses with you! Yeah. I had to do this in Adelaide you know, when I went for my D S V license. I had loads of dots in front of me you know, in this machine Colour blind. and er yeah, I had to er tell them what numbers were what er letters Mm. numbers rather were coming, coming up, you know? And I just ran through them, you know, it was no problem to me. But I can image yo ,yo , you can stand You'd fail. doing it. So and er ooh I had they did er this old butterfly thing as well, the old psychology bit as well , you know. What does that look like? You know ! A blob of ink squashed together what else! You know? Yeah. And er how old? That was the first time I had to cough for anybody that was, as well. . I didn't particularly like that idea. Just testing for a hernia, I told I hadn't got one! Yeah. Ha! It's like that er truck driver that came into your place when er you and er that bloke that used to there. And a he came in there and er for his glasses and er old was having a headache actually everything Oh yeah. and he, he was a er said he was nearly enough, near enough blind! Mm! And here he is driving trucks around the countryside! Did he? Yeah. And he persisted as well! Yeah, he didn't need glasses for driving! You know er! The old, old ones are the worst, I tell you! Yeah. Well anybody over forty years old it ought to be, it ought to be compulsory! Mm. Yeah. It's like, I remember nan don't need glasses! Yeah. She should be wearing glasses. Yeah. Well what, I'll never forget this chap do up on Avenue Road he were like that! He'd been driving for sixty years, you've never had an accident. Yeah, I mean, his vision was absolutely appalling! Yeah. I said, well you shouldn't be driving! Yeah. See even with glasses on! Yeah. No, my driving's alright ma ! But he can't hear nothing about ! No, he can't actually no! Except get the cops in. It's a privilege . I'll always maintain that people with glasses know they've got something wrong with their eyes so the chances are if they're wearing glasses then they can see properly! Yeah. It's the guy that hasn't got glasses, that's the guy you've gotta worry about. Yeah. That's right. What's the time? Any idea? Five to nine. Oh right. Red Dwarf on in a minute. Yeah. Mhm. Ooh! Excuse me! Ah ah! That wasn't now. Fucking ! . He's ain't he? Don't take it seriously? Right then no we don't no, no, no Just say it quietly so that the people can get the joke It's not very nice It's funny it's not very nice it's funny though No it's not you're right It's about as good as your erm Everybody in the ward was laughing about erm, what you call it? erm, what, Only Fools and Horses Oh yeah That was on was it? If anything he seemed to be a bit more brightly yesterday overall weren't he? Mm Did you not take it away with you on your weekend away? No going up erm Oh anything could happen to him Yeah that's interesting conversation possibly Yeah interesting recording bits half way up Snowdon Mm, that was delicious Mm, it was It just imagine doing this in the weather that we had, God, up to here, wind and rain Right whose pears are those Paul? Those are nice, I want some pears Tea or coffee mother? Coffee mother Tea or coffee father? Both Nothing thanks Nothing right Do you want a cup of tea Philip? Tea please Did you hear about the Scout Club? What? Makes oh no Who's had a mixture of tea and coffee, you? Yeah, Scout Club, it's delicious Oh God Oh that was weren't it? Have ya, have that er maybe tried it, it's really nice Hot or cold? Hot Sugared and milked? sug sugared and milked, yeah Ooh Paula, Paula make them mixed Yes love Tony wants Tea and coffee mixed tea, coffee mixed With milk and sugar milk and sugar, it's lovely You've all got You know Winding your mum up You know at the camp, it's going, are you going again this year, the one you went to up the road? Which one up the road? Up on the, on the main road at that big house you went When? when was it last year or the year before? Oh I don't remember Oh we k we went to have a look at them in in the Oh, that's not up the road it's Hertford Hertford Hertford Yeah it's down the road, it's not up the road at all, it's down the road, it's miles away, up the road It didn't seem miles away with a big house Tell you what walk it and you'll find that There's no big houses I thought there was a big house in the grounds Where was it Tony the one near Woodbridge that one? Yeah Yeah the one in er Oh we went past the farm up to it, there's a farm on the left Tiny ho farm shop Oh I don't where you got the water from? up the ground, that grounds and a big house Oh there's a what you call it at the end, the old folks' retirement home isn't there Oh somebody's formed a country residence If you boil up that chicken carcass we'll have some of grandma's soup Ah with suet dumplings But we'll have some carrots I'll send Tony to the shops and some leeks You can get those out the guinea pigs cage Well I'll sent Tony to the shops he can buy get the car they wouldn't of eaten all the carrots yet It's, they're closed today It's not Thursday it's not closed today Mum, mum says there is Wednesday Wednesday it's closed Well what day is it today? Thursday Sunday Yes Oh it's Thursday oh good I'll tell Ton I send you to the shop, you get a frozen packet of Yeah stew vegetables and you just shove those in and that's it Oh I don't I get fresh carrots and leeks and You should do, you should do, yeah get something like that Tony Yeah, but then it saves you getting all the bits and That's a proper job though isn't it mother? Do it that And way, yeah, but if he gets fresh, a bit of fresh some fresh leeks and fresh It's alright you won't get vegetables in, in no I don't How about going to They're even worse Don't swing on your chair you'll break your neck The trouble is during the week, a lot of little shops only have what's been left over from the weekend and their vegetables, cos that's what happens at ours Mm, yeah and then on the Friday You get a fresh lot in a fresh lot in If you get When did you get that vase? Or when did we get that vase? That was from erm Sharon Was it? Sharon it's very nice innit? Er You're not eating again are you? God I just fancy a biscuit Tony your tea, coffee here Sha er is Sharon still going around Is that tea and coffee? there, there isn't enough milk in it Oh these are nice Are they? Mm What are they? Bites Bites Computer biscuits Mm, they're ever so nice What are they made of? Caramel Mm are they They're horrible They're caramel they're horrible Oh they're beautiful, I like, do you like them Tony? You could hold tiles on a wall with these things Cor, very poor No just get a packet of stew vegetables Yeah a packet of It looks more like tea now, it looked like coffee before what's it called suet What? a packet of suet, and then I can make Soup soup, chicken soup Ooh packet of suet Don't you like Don't you like suet puddings don't you like dumplings? I like dumplings but I don't like fat I'll skim the fat off Better watch that Paul you'll pull all your fillings out First of all boil it and then let it they're horrible Safeway Bites, best before the ninth of May Are you going tonight? I'll go tonight Well I'll go with you nine, two oh, right, am I going on my own this afternoon? Anybody come with me to the hospital I'll come with you and I'll go tomorrow You're alright, you can go tonight with Paula Let's have a look at the packet I'll go with ya Well have you got a lot of homework to do? Ton cos otherwise I'll well I, you're fresh for your homework now aren't ya? Yeah, alright Well if Tony's going tonight you'll get more done with his mum, I'll come with you this afternoon If you want to, it's up to you We can all go this afternoon, we can all go tonight, makes no difference Well, you know I'm going to Mavis, in the soup, loop the loop All you have to do is put the chicken carcass in and leave it Yeah and then when you come in I can put the er I can make, skim it off put the vegetables in being as you've got, being as you're getting in er thingy vegetables You're not drinking tea and coffee mixed Why not? Oh my God What's wrong with that Paula Have you ever had tea and coffee in the vending machine? No, but what's wrong with it? What's wrong with it? Out the vending machine it's not proper tea to start with That's gonna spill if you're not careful Out of the vending machine out, out of a vending machine it's revolting It's not proper tea to start with it's it's coffee. Somebody was asking about this new Instant tea instant tea It's supposed to be brilliant innit? What's it made out of or what? Oh no, they wouldn't do that Not much What's it taste like Tony? Horrible Nice, he's, he's put too much tea in I'll tell you something it will replace Teabags Yeah No it will you can taste it It will not, it's too expensive It's not nice, it's not nice But the price will come down it's too expensive that's your opinion Remember when teabags came out? People said they'd never, never catch on, teabags Do you know those Oxo Granules Daft way of having a cup of tea just got used to it those are far more expensive then buying Oxos Only at the moment they are, in time they won't be, Paul stop swinging and they, they, they Remember what we were talking about this morning how things have changed in service in shops Yeah and that, it'll all happen Oh it'll happen You in time In your old age you'll be making yourself an instant cup of tea Look at coffee, how many people have They sell stamps don't they? Right I wouldn't be at all surprised but you've got to find the place there it could be at the other end a mile away couldn't it? Yeah The size of that place Yes, I don't know where it is Oh father says it's er so far away from one end to the other See they use their, that, their room as a bedroom don't they? They use that room as a bedroom, I'm not with you That one there Which one? that room there with the window this one, look Chance to have a look, there Yeah there's a as a bedroom? yeah, you've got all the camp beds Ah they might have somebody to stay with them, have somebody to stay with them the only trouble this we need days and days and days and months or rain it's lovely but it's not doing us any good this Its too dry really, there's going to be a real water shortage still Yes a real calamity too because once the things dry up, the trouble is the, the water gets seen this lady What she dresses in some of the strangest things, sometimes she dresses in sailor's uniforms and big white Really? coats on, yeah she walks all over the place Where does she live? I think it's I think but I could be wrong And does she carry her clothes about with her or does she Just like that she walks and walks and, nights, morning any time of the day you can see her, no paths, you know what the roads are like all on her own. There used to be er, a lady that used to come in the cinema when I worked there, and she had a in fact not much bigger than that Yeah er, a shopping basket Yeah and she had all her clothes in it there Oh God look at the width of this thing she could always look at the width of it, God, ah, oh that lorry, get past it. She was always clean, you couldn't fault her for cleanliness, but I'm sure she must of either washed her clothes in the toilets, you know, wash basin in the toilets because that was the only thing she had was one bag and she used to, er, her pension book was in and er erm This is ridiculous this, this shouldn't be on the road. He should wait you know to ask Yeah but, how can he? If the width of it I know, it's dreadful that they're just too big for roads and this is a main road Well this is what the grumble about don't they? Who? in Northern this is the erm Oh the farmers, this is ridiculous this is the Northern you can't pass these Well it's the width of it Mm It's erm, oh God Well do you think that lady sleeps out? No I think she lay, I think it's I think, I've never seen her, there's a rumour you know how you get stories about people Yeah like this I mean there's Yeah We have a lot of oddities well she, she will, literally walks miles, she'll walk, you see her the other side of Stowmarket, seven miles, six, seven, eight, ten miles away It's madness all weathers all weathers it's as well They like it, they like that sort of a life Oh rumour has it that her husband was in the forces Yeah now this is an old rumour and er, he was an officer, er I think in the RAF and he had erm an accident his plane crashed and he died and this is why she dresses in military uniform all the time sort, you know she went a little bit deranged Yeah and that but sur she never got over it the shock of it never got over the shock of it though and yet you see these days they would give her treatment for that Well if she, er, er, no, at the beginning they would of given her treatment or something Oh she isn't that old Oh No I thought you meant during the war No, she's only in top twenties, early thirties Really? Yeah, that's all she is Oh I thought you meant No, no Oh Super jet, sixteen hundred, eighteen, Amazon, do we need things that big? Mind you see, when you think about it you see look at the size it's enormous some people they only live for their partner don't they and a thing like that get a Yes, yeah her husband getting killed is the end of the world and there's, there's nothing else sort of thing and they just it's very sad really, I mean if you're a young person you can quickly pull yourself together and realize that Mm, mm life goes on Yeah which you've got to do Yes I mean the way I'd look at it, would look at it if something of happened to John, well I still go and you've got to sort of well Yeah there's, there's nothing you can do about it when No you've had your life, smile and but that's it when me mum died everybody said oh your dad I'll be dead in, within a year, two years, he'll give up, he's got nothing you know Yeah he lived ten, twelve years was it after? Yeah No it wasn't, no ten years There's a, the person that took that words was your Moira Oh yeah, well she went a bit she went a bit over the top didn't she? Yeah With remorse Yeah It was unnatural and yet she was always treated as one of the, the family, but it's silly because you've done what you can when they're living. I mean Margaret next door to me she went over the top when she was all her sister's energy and thinking her sister should, I mean she had a sister living with her and her sister had her own family with her, er a Mongol son, well I'm afraid Margaret shouldn't of taken that attitude because she said ooh everywhere I go now there's only me, now that's being selfish, because she had three children and she shouldn't really of expected all her sisters to keep coming, they were living with her, you know never leave her alone Did she ever get over it? Well she when I left And was she getting over it with her, was she getting better? Well not really because she was still demanding Coping with that husband not being there too much of her relations Oh yes that's why Alice eventually said she'd buy our house after all that time and said, and said well she'd be right next door to her Yes but you're not fair to your own family which is even your own family gets first priority Oh yes I mean I wouldn't, wouldn't expect, I would expect Paula to you know you're the first priority and I support yes, but not Take over not demand all that Demand, yeah you know, you understand what I mean? I do, yeah Yeah and she used to say well, well I mean oh well they haven't got, they'll be able to have their holidays together and all this, oh yeah fair enough, it's their life no I think Margaret can be a little bit she really did But it did You see the trouble is with Margaret her husband had always done everything for her, she went out to work and he brought the, he more or less did his work, did overtime, everything and still managed to look after the boys How many children, was it three children you said? Three boys Three lads Yeah the eldest boy when his father died was eighteen Yeah the next one was sixteen Mm and the young boy was about thirte no he wasn't, yeah about thirteen yeah something like that Eighteen, eighteen, sixteen and thirteen Yeah well how did they take it then the lads? Well the eldest lad was alright, but the middle lad he became a bit of a problem Sixteen year old by er, mind you they'd always been children that had had to fend for themselves a lot, the only sad thing Mm, mm that their own Margaret used to be working she worked nights as well Come on get a move on you know he's gonna cause chaos this guy, he's gonna pull in front of this lorry, watch Mm, she worked and she worked night shift as well, you know they had to do alternative shifts, so consequently sort of kept the house and the family going sort of thing The day to day jobs, yeah everything, the cooking, the lot Yeah I mean Margaret used to come in and everything was done for her, I mean she never had to do a thing well that hit her terribly you see. Did she carry on working? Well she went on sick leave for a long time Yeah and er I don't think that was a good idea because she was lonely without all the Yeah, if you go, if you can get back to work Yeah you get into, it can help to get your mind off it during the day or alright at night you might be very lonely And she was at the cemetery every day with Ah, yeah, yeah flowers and Yeah I mean she had a picture of him on the headstone and oh, thought she went over the top I'm afraid and she get loads of support because then that Clifford was very popular and er his was yeah and er the men were very good. There was one man he used to come every week just to do see if there were any jobs that wanted doing and er he'd spend, you know, a day there you know doing anything she wants doing that she couldn't manage herself Right, did he work Clifford? He worked for the Electricity Board Electricity Board? What putting the correct Maintenance Maintenance on the Yeah on the faults on the but he was, the men that he worked with his friends were really good, you see and his sister, the youngest sister, Alice who she had, had the Mongol lad Yes well Clifford and her, her husband Yeah had grown up together Yeah now he took it very bad like as much as Margaret Yes because his best friend and he, and really Alice was supporting him as well as Margaret Mm through the crisis and she had a lot on her hands because he went to pieces and he had no other friend he had How did he go to pieces, when you say he went to pieces? He, he What did he do? Well he, his own idea was he'd lost his friend Yes he'd lost Yeah he'd lost everything Yes I can see that, but he was lonely how did he go to pieces? Oh well his health suffered and Did he stop working or Yeah really? Yeah, oh it really knocked him for a burton, you see his, you see Clifford and him, with this boy that's had their, their, his son that was well Clifford would always integrate him in with his own family Yes If Clifford had, had er Alice husband went out yes the boys used to go out Yeah you know what I mean, football and things like that, he was always included in it. In a way he he was one of, you know One of the family he was one of the family Mm it was, it was very sad really Just shows you that, but death can be Oh yes death can show erm, people's dependency on each other Oh yes. that can really show it, can't it? Well they were, they were really dependent on, I mean on each other, they were a unit even though they were two families in a way Mm I mean it was only Margaret's sister, you see Margaret came from a large family, so there was always Plenty of people around plenty of people around Mm and unfortunately it was only about eight months before that she lost her mother, only her mother was the dominant feature of the family you see she kept them all together I wonder what would of happened if she hadn't of died when she did Yeah and Clifford had, had died, I wonder how he'd of taken it then, perhaps sh you know they lost that Yeah the mother the helmsman as it were Yeah they lost everything really, but the father you see, he, he was pushed in the background, the old man Poor chap I mean the old man was well in his seventies and he, he was secondary, you see he never even er, he, he didn't even come to the funeral, Clifford's funeral and Margaret was very bitter about that. And why was that? Why didn't he come, was he ill? I don't know Could of been I don't know but he could of been ill, he could, it could of been that he couldn't take any more you know that but Margaret was terri terribly bitter about him Margaret not coming, but he could, he couldn't stand it Yes you see funerals er, everybody likes a wedding don't they? Yeah Everybody loves weddings, dressing up, meeting and that, funerals, yeah alright we all get together again at funerals and the, after the coffin's gone in the ground and all that, that really high emotion point or once it's gone behind the erm curtains to be burnt, once you've gone through that there's that sort of erm Limbo limbo yeah, you're coming together again in the house or whatever you have, a reception, and you need to go through that to come to terms with it or you can, you can need to go through that, but some people can't take the pressure emotional pressure of, you know, all the, hour, two hours, three, four hours before that it just, they It, well then just can't take it, and I don't know how they cope with it afterwards they cope, I mean as far as they were concerned, as far as they were concerned they'd never seen such, the crematorium was packed, the people was all lined outside Yeah very popular chap and the, the he was very, very popular and they, and they Well you know when erm Scott erm died Yeah er, all, all his mates all his mates and Paul and myself went up there didn't we? Yeah and, that was, it was it was it was like a football match crowd Yeah it was solid and it was all sort of, his age, fifteen, sixteen, seventeen, eighteen year olds and all vowing they're never gonna sniff whatever again, you know all making these Let's hope they don't pledges but you see with him you see, they, it was packed, the house before the wake was packed, because Margaret kept coming over when he was all dressed up in a suit and everything, I didn't, she asked me if, once to go, I just said no I would prefer to remember Yeah Clifford as he was, cos John had been in the hospital I think the day before he died Was it a heart attack, heart? Yeah it was, it, well what happened is, was, that he on Sun on the Sunday gone swimming with the boys in the morning Mm, mm and then they'd got us playing foot football in the main park and they came back He wasn't well that's right, no and Clifford, no Clifford said, the lads to each other are we going out again dad you know cos oh Margaret was in, yes, and there was some other boys, the boy across the road was eating something and the boys said and Clifford said do you mind if I just sit in the chair and be quiet for just a few minutes and he just sat in the chair and had his heart attack He must of been feeling unwell then Did, he was feeling a bit groggy, I suppose Arthur thought he was tired Yeah and er he said the lad across the road, the hardware shop, he did first aid so he started on him, on the, Clifford resuscitation with the Oh had he actually collapsed from his heart attack? Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, and then and Margaret called for the ambulance, I heard the slop and I heard, and then they put the dog out right away and I said, that's unusual of them, it was one of those tiny little miniatures you see What, they put it out where? Out in the back? Oh they put it outside in the garden Yeah and I said oh there's Benjy, there must be something, you know, I thought it was one of the kids that had jumped or something because the little one had always climbing and jumping off the wall, breaking his leg you know the weak one, and the next minute saw the ambulance outside, but he must of been, it must of been too massive to be able to do anything cos he wasn't breathing that bit you see Oh, it been gone too, stop breathing too long, yeah you could only go so, yeah and poor chap and say so they put him on a life support did they? Yeah from how long was he on the life support? er, er, something about he, in hospital about eight weeks Eight weeks on a life support? Yeah, he was on it some time and Charles and they'd put him back on the ward becau when John last saw him, cos he, John was visiting er, used to be having treatment or something at at the time Mm for something, I, I think he was going for his skin Yeah and he used to pop in you see Mm, mm but it was waste of time because he, he, he didn't know, he wasn't Clifford, well that's what he said to me, it's not Clifford you know It's just a body there then it's just a body there So he's on the life support right to the end Yes and the funny thing was I was he on that life support right till the end? Yeah, no, he was back on the wards Did, they took him, taken him off the life support? Yeah Could he talk and, no No No Oh the funny thing was about that was Margaret was with him That's his wife? Yeah Yeah now erm as well as much as she could she was never in the house and the day that he died she didn't get there on time Oh God Oh she wasn't well you can guarantee that can't ya? Yeah Sod's law she'd gone out, she'd just slipped out with Alice for something Maybe that sort of hit her as well I think Oh I think so you know after being in there all the time, but I mean, you, there's nothing you can do you can sit with somebody Ah that's it, maybe that starts to explain a bit more round the clock yeah how, why she took it so badly Oh she did she if I'd only been there when he died, I'd of hold his hands, blah, blah, oh God, poor lass She never did poor lass But she couldn't really what's er, er she couldn't of done any more No and she er she couldn't sort of feel guilty about it No, no I mean because she spent every, every bit of the time with him. But she, she won't see it like that will she? Well I told her that I get, I said to her look Margaret you could of been, you could of closed your eyes and he could of happened but it does happen non Mm, mm, you don't and you've not got to have any recre you know Recrimination recriminations about it because well it's maybe meant that way anyway you've taken enough, you, you've taken enough yourself haven't you? Mm, mm But I mean there was er, they were so kind to them in the hospital if there would of been any sign of distress they would of, you know, usually anyway you don't usually have distress at the end you're usually at peace aren't you? Oh that's what it looks like whether you are or not oh, oh Oh you might not oh look at this Union Jack and the oh my God Where? There Oh yeah, oh somebody oh the what you call it? The erm British Legion Oh yeah British Legion, was your father in the British Legion? No, use, use, used to go to the club, Legion club Was your father ever in the army? No he's down the pit Oh yes of course he was down the pit have have you heard how Johnny is lately? No I've heard nothing, no Is it, the wedding according to Les yeah Oh but I don't know when, where, how, what or whatever I, it's up to him, ha, he's no longer How old is Arthur? Is he older than you? He's older than me oh he's a lot older, he's about fifty Johnny Is he? Yeah, hold on what am I, yeah he's coming up to fifty yeah, forty nine Is it, he was always good looking lad though your Johnny well I reckon he was, I reckon your father was really good looking don't you? My dad? Yeah Oh I take after him an'all in that Yeah I think your father was a good looking man Yeah, handsome sod my God yes it was erm bit of blow that when me dad went Yeah but you see when you smoke all your damn life what do you expect? The ironic thing is you can't And he couldn't stop it, I, I never get over when the doctor said to him if I were you I wouldn't smoke, it'll do you good not to smoke, so he didn't, and he stopped it Yeah just like that crazy after what, forty odd years of smoking he stopped it just like that, and then when the doctor said when he'd been, after he'd got the results back, you know, all the, all the ones they do at the hospital then Aye obviously it was no good he, you could smoke like a chimney it made no damn difference the state his insides were Yeah his lungs were then Oh and when he said er, you know he said you know well, er, you like a cigarette the doctor said, yeah, and my dad was so proud of this, you wanna cigarette yeah, you can smoke if you're, there you are and he said it, it wasn't the cigarettes God it wasn't the cigarettes John always says the doctor says he's got er he's got He's got to stop he's gonna take it Yeah, yeah you see and he's stopped No he's got it, no but he's gonna, start again if everything, they told him that it, he, he had no chance he said Yeah, I don't blame him he said er I don't blame him at all I'd die I think Yeah that's it mind you the trouble is it's alright in saying that but you see I've got a bad chest, Philip's got a bad chest All God's children got a bad chest and the trouble is, no What? that the trouble is it affects us you see We're alright Yeah I know we're go round with masks on can't you? Oh aye, yeah Eh up, we've gotta Ooh the house is, smells no Oh aye, it might you don't, you don't know what you're missing Ooh, I, don't you start again with No thanks Oh exactly I don't like Park Drive good for you, keeps the moths out the house But surely the taste it's horrible, ah, well I think it's horrible It keeps the moths out I can't stand going in a, you see, that's one of things I would never go out to dos for cos I Because of the smoke I couldn't stand the smoke he used There Okay? Oh he's alright, he is,who's gonna come looking? Honestly Arthur there's, there, I'll have those, give me those back draw the curtains round Oh he's going in the toilet, they're better, that's a nicer colour Yes, give me those were you never a Girl Guide? I'm embarrassed. I'm not embarrassed. I am. Why? Well the nurse is here I think they see a lot, they see everything the nurse's mother What is it, if you've got it, flaunt He's, he's, what do you call it? Pardon? he's alright, it's okay yeah, it's alright, completely, I wouldn't do it if it was illegal, don't worry The only thing is Philip's gonna have to be careful well somebody'll have to drive him there about what? about getting home movies he's a great fan yeah, might be an idea though, well we'll see what's, what happens with the nothing to be ashamed of yourself Oh God, no Go on what's that nothing's happening I suppose they could send me out tomorrow oh God That's what I said to ya, I said this, tomorrow possibly Yeah cos if they've got everything under control they'd want it, what else can they do? It's all under control now It might be rest they might think It might be they might keep you in for a longer rest I don't think they will though, because they've given me that already Oh this is the second bite this is it Oh I see I've had the first one Oh think I could wait another forty eight hours while you wait results of that one you see Yes I'm off all me pills now All of them? Well except the pills they give you in these places just to keep you quiet You er can give ya, so that you can sleep Let's have a, let's have a look at your list, see what you've er stop, stop Alright getting on, getting on Well if you were going to come for me you've got to drive and that and he's still not up yet today, so I, I have to get Arthur to draw some money Yeah and I think it might be better if he hasn't maybe if, if he's he would yes when he's suggested you go back to bed Because they cou they have to No I say, shh, shh There's a possibility There's a possibility that's a possibility they'll, they'll come and visit if I go back with Philip and yes because they'll see to it Yeah see to your visiting We can bring you back at home or if they insist that you go back in an ambulance, you may, they may not put you back home you know, have you thought of that? They might put you into Southwold I know, I mean, I mean it's the same thing isn't it? Yeah, but they might do that Oh well, if they put you in Southwold I'm alright I doubt it I doubt it, but they might do that Yes, if they put him into Southwold I'm alright you're not, you're not gonna be in here much longer, that's a fact isn't it? Mm No So that's a fact have you seen the weather out there, it's gorgeous ain't it? did you watch it yesterday? Some of it yeah I saw a bit of it brilliant man Brilliant I thought he only last one lap didn't he? Yeah, why I didn't see that, I only saw one bit of it, tiny bit Red one last Yeah, the British lad, the English lad, Aussies, they're all the same these Aussies The conversation no I think the more sensible idea is to get he's on soundings Is he also adding sugar to him I tell you what he does need, see a doctor Ah he does need to see a doctor I don't mean erm what's his name, cos he's abroad isn't he? erm what's the guy's name? Mm he wants to see a doctor, otherwise he's just gonna, he's not gonna get any better is he? Neither of them are gonna get better, I mean you've been in here all this time and he hasn't been up yet Yeah so, the biggest one is to get him yeah and to get that yeah he drove me over yeah, I know Yeah, that's a point innit? I needn't of brought her I mean, yeah, but how can I go out without the car that's the trouble, but many car drivers It's not been out the house other than last night How, but you, they're, they've done all the shopping Yes I know they have, yeah I mean they've done all the shopping and how can I manage without the car? Well you won't be able to well what? how's that, has it got rockets on the back? I don't know I think it's a sensible idea Wings on it for get in his house, see what happens, get that yeah he's still, he's still got his antibiotics to finish Yeah Mm he finishes them on Monday and if he's no better by then, cos nobody Well he will be he's gonna be, he is better now than he was cos them antibiotics are working Yeah well give them till he's finished the antibiotics Yeah, well, what but, but I'm saying is it's not the antibiotics it isn't the It's just not the that he wants something to, he wants something he wants , he wants somebody looking at him and saying well there's something, something going on that leg all the time like a pain or something like it he wants, he wants X-ray or something like that just to see what on earth it's like in there He's like , he's, he's like, he's like, he wants to be in here Well not this place but somewhere Yeah, well, you see, but if he, the thing is, if he, he, he seems as if he is carrying a weight, a terrible weight all the time Well that, what are antibiotics gonna do? Nothing at all Mm, mm about that you see the, the doctor doesn't, the doctor that came out doesn't know his case and, well I don't think and I think to have it, say watch Mr , Mr you, if he's not here, he's not here and you've got to do something I can't, he can't, Could he I can't see see you can't You can't go and see it's too far away Well it's, they've plenty of people here so you've got, yeah and if, the longer it goes on, the more I mean if possible that he can't be any better mi yeah, it's a possibility but until somebody actually says no, you don't know when he went to Liverpool the guy there did nothing for you did he? it was a waste of time it was a waste of a journey for Philip and it was too much for him Well, he, it's not that far away and it's, if he's in here and they can see to him, fair enough, or they might be able to point him in a different direction, a better direction So it's, you've got to see somebody Yeah It's just to get can't go on like this Oh no crazy to getting worse, he's been going oh He hasn't as a matter of fact it's just bed and yeah can get in I thought what's that digging in until I realized what it was Oh all the time you've been Yeah He doesn't need to see, see a dermatologist Who? Well one of those or other a lum lumbatologist no, no, yeah cos all he's doing is just lying there He's just lying eating but it It's ten o'clock this morning before they report on what? On what Arthur's doing What's that? wind bag Who's the wind bag? Blow out You're the wind bag It's not in, you've lost it, there you are it's in that one can't find it? Cup of tea dear? Yes please One sugar? Er one please Two? Er one please One, sorry What's that? Don't be a Rodney and spend what, that's Archer isn't it? No, the other one Brian, a cup of tea? Lang lingo that looks like Jeffrey Archer Rodney's Jeffrey's, Jeffrey Archer, Jeffrey, don't be a Rodney and spend Jeffrey on a cat and bob, it's the Daily Mirror as well It's a new language Rodney's a plonker, yeah oh God, good though ain't it? is that what you're doing? I don't know Is it a side line what's No, no a bit of a side line on that No this is just to do with a Yeah a, a Rodney, yeah a Rodney don't be a Rodney it says, don't be a Rodney it says and spend a Jeffrey on a cat and bob, don't be a plonker and spend two thousand pounds that's what he played, paid to the prostitutes, do you remember? Yeah, just because you looked a nice girl was it?on a cat and bob, somebody who gives you lots of promises and it's load of crap bimbo Bimbo why? Why? The favours, in lieu of favours given Indeed, Oh I Oh You know you can just have, I look as if I'm mm, it's good though ain't it? It's good, it's the longest has it stopped, is it still splitting ah? Oh it is Yeah it is Did you hear about that chap he did What's that? he did, James Watana, he did a one four seven break on TV the fastest ever Yeah and his father was shot out in erm is it Bangkok Tha out Thailand way Yeah and killed, his father's a gambler out there somebody came to settle up bang and he was playing thinking he'd just been wounded and in fact he'd been shot and killed, poor chap Is he still playing in Well if he don't he don't get the pennies does he? Don't do it you don't get paid Last chance by a clever time share At these prices at these prices, low season you can go for nine hundred and ninety five pounds mm There you are there's your mobility chair for you That's the one, yeah Oh, aye, that's the five forward gears, one reverse exact one Mary and I have talked about getting a twin one For what toy boy? No we were thinking of getting so we can travel together Sharing between you where would you have him then? No, share Monday, Wednesday, Friday, she'd have him Tuesday, Thursday and weekends cos I said to her what you gonna do when you get home if you can't drive? Oh she said I'm gonna get one of those er chair, chairs that you see them Mary I told her to buy a car you see and she said, she said no, I'll buy a chair then we can drive on the seat I said I, I'll have to start having lessons How to do wheelies in the how to do wheelies she'll have to give me a mile start oh I say Who is it then? I guess that thing Wind bag It's hot in here You feel, with your fur coat I know, I'm gonna put it, take it off on and like nothing on earth Mm mm honestly it's all sex in these papers your eyes have lit up Mm don't like these papers really No, I know, keep the, keep the, you've read it four times now but you hmm Ooh thought he was dead oh I tell you who keeps young Cliff Richard doesn't he? Mm He never seems to age Who's that? He's not married that's why Yeah He has a doesn't smoke, doesn't drink not married Oh I say Jimmy White Well yeah but there's only one missing oh no You must be joking They don't know who you are it's like er Jeremy Beadle Jeremy Beadle, is it heck, is it heck Course it is It's not Of course it is, I mean in your house and taking over oh can I pass you please? Can you get past? I don't like her it's a terrible non event How's your glasses? Can you squeeze through? I can now I've left a gap a yard wide for ya Oh dear, that's Oh I better had, put these back on again Yeah as Philip says you're stupid wearing those or something because Yeah they're your new ones so Are they a different prescription Yeah than those? Oh, oh well It may of been when between there But Philip says you shouldn't of got that Oh no, it's a different pres different strength he said, well, well I said well he keeps You look better in them mind you yeah those are better suit you Mm they make you make you look sort of intelligent sort of oh they're more expensive aren't they? What is it, your eyes have altered the strength of your lenses haven't they? They've all, I could do with glasses. I thought you used to wear them at one time For reading yeah, I could do now I think for distance Yeah if I look at things like that, it's all, er yes because you, when Paula, when did Paula stop wearing glasses? I'd never seen Paula in, in glasses, ever, other than in photographs Oh not a liable I don't think she had no it's just for close work Mm it is Paula glasses as soon as she went to another well she wore glasses when she was in her pram In her pram? Yeah she had she had little tiny, little gold ones Yeah that were tied on with a ribbon Ah and she was Have you got a photograph of that in the pram with glasses on? and, no she had Could, we could have that blown up she had them a few month's old didn't she? Yeah and we could send it anonymously to primary school but no, she had them er then and he spent a lot of time did Paula with her glasses you needn't worry Did she have operations to Oh yeah or just a squint she had the two, the first one wasn't put right, you know they had to get the exact one Mm, mm They get weaker and weaker before they'll do it, weaken the What they do is So it will So it will, if one wasn't was pulling to yes Yeah, yeah So they weakened the strong one And the only, the only way you can do that, you can't string the muscle up So they weakened the strong one They have to the root and the stronger one Yeah what they hand them down here do they? So they a bit Monty Pythonish swing But she, she had to have two because the, the first one they did it wasn't, it wasn't exactly what they wanted Mm so she had to go back in and have it done again God so, she was very good wasn't she? Because you see then erm until they take the bandages off Mm they don't know If it's worked or not, if it's been a success or not and it's an ordeal for a young child Mm What we did with, we bought her a little guitar so that she can play it and have a bit of music and something to do Yeah, yeah and she had, we bought her this little Ukelele type of thing and the second time she had it done it was very unfortunate because I was on you know that big no, I don't, but there's been that many they were all down with it Yeah and they wouldn't let her out of hospital but they closed the ward and they wouldn't let any Only those that were in could stop in And only them but nobody could visit So sort of isolation it was Yeah Yeah and it So how long was she in for then? Be about a week A week extra but used to come up Poor up She took, she took them a walk to see the flowers in the garden and In the hospital, yeah they dressed up as nurses and help the nurses Oh that'll be good won't it? Yeah Yeah Oh yeah the nurses were kind to them Were good to them yeah, and they cleaned the ward and they, cos everybody went oh they were spotless they were all fit Yeah they were all fit, just keep them Yeah keep them occupied and then of course erm because, because she just had the operation you see they didn't think it was advisable Pardon? Because she just had the operation Yeah they didn't think it was advisable that she came home Mm I'm not cheating out Oh no I'm not cheating out But you but I've been wanting, I've been quietly thinking, the trouble is, you see it isn't just the argument that drives you pot you wouldn't nip home, Paula to go with you to bring her dear Arthur back Why? I do that Well is he going to walk back? if I'm driving the Metro The only thing, other thing is, that Arthur could take the in his car Yeah and then they could bring the Metro over, if I go and do some shopping on my way out now at Asda Yeah and then could bring it another day, or Bring back, that's right, either way it's gotta go hasn't it? It, perhaps it's a bit much to try and get it all done to er today No, if you took us in your car, you could come for, if you took us in the Metro today, oh No, say it, go on say it No, you've still got to get back to your place To get back to my to your house in it Well either way we've got to do that, two cars have gotta go, it's gotta involve two cars either way, no matter when you do it It's got to involve two cars at some time whether you do it start, middle or end, it makes no difference And then they come for him, and then, you come for him in your car yeah Yeah, when are they likely to tell you about your biopsy then? They don't rush No I'm not The best thing you could do is ask at the if I go and ask now You go and ask them if there's any news Do you wanna ask? cos they only told me bits, they all came round this morning and er, we were having a laugh actually, it was Was this big Mr it was him we were laughing this morning oh God he were er, he were er, they said they, he haven't got, he said you no need for painkillers he was that surprised, he was that surprised the way, of the way he did it, he got brutally treated with with his telling him now how he did, how he did it yeah, yeah, and they, they say he was brutal with you? I said, I said, I said I was all prepared he was suggesting there was a beautiful big orange over there, it was, he found out that neither of us, non, oh God and he I told him ambition's a good thing and what are you take another sample from you please ? And he, and this young doctor said, yeah he says the only samples I take oh God all fruits so he needn't of been right you see, he could of, he oh dear Yeah if you follow that, that sister right, see what she says and whether it's gonna be, I'll get it on tape if I can, for posterity Spoken to John , what's happening about his biopsy? Oh that I don't know you'll have to see staff nurse You don't know John I know what you're gonna ask me and I don't know You don't know, we're just trying to work out when he's going home or and things like that Erm, not before the weekend by the sound of it Right they haven't yet said anything certainly that we're aware of Right he, he realizes I mean he's quite a lot better himself Yeah he's now cut out all his morphine Yeah just on erm a couple of odd painkillers mm, mm erm, and, and seems a lot better generally so, you know, just a question of waiting until somebody comes will it be today? I don't know, I can't tell you really He's, he's talking now Mr done another Biop biopsy on Tuesday biopsy on Tuesday, and it can take up to a week He said two, forty eight hours just now Yeah, yeah said I will know within forty eight hours and we thought we Tuesday you see Yeah Thursday afternoon How, erm, are still here for the moment, I mean Oh yeah, here, here for a while, yeah because, you know, you will see a couple of doctors wandering around and sitting at the desk I mean he may know Oh and not divulge the information to you I was gonna say he may know when it's likely to come Right, oh we're just trying to work out, you know, car here and getting bodies Yeah here there and Yes everywhere, things like that, so, well I'll hang on a bit then Okay okay, yeah, thanks a lot, ta She said she doesn't know hold on, hold on, just a moment, she doesn't know, but a biopsy can take a week, a week to come through, she wouldn't expect you out before the weekend Exactly Why? Hold on, this is what you wouldn't, expects, this is only expects, this may not be, you might be walking out tomorrow morning He's she hasn't, she hasn't got the results through yet, but they maybe through and the doc says no already, but they haven't told her okay? Yeah So, erm, she said oh you are erm on a few drugs, but there anti-inflammatory drugs that you're on Yeah okay, I think that's for your stomach, erm You're getting all excited, getting everybody else No, no no, no I said to her if we could just know, cos er, moving bodies and cars and so on, she probably understands but she said as soon as you see a doctor out here, speak to them and, and then we can erm, but they may know somebody They may not but I say, I said to her that you, you'd said that you had the biopsy within, you'd know the results within forty eight hours, but she said oh no they could take a week oh stop rushing us then We've had the word, nobody's being rushed I know, I don't he's, he's like this, he's got to get on, get everything done, that's what I said to you the other day, leave and I can get myself sorted, because I know him, he doesn't, he doesn't wait But he's not gonna be in that much longer are ya? No No, but he but it's still, I mean, even if I don't, even if I don't come out tomorrow, I'd come out on Saturday If you come out on Saturday night, the best idea for me to do is to get Philip home This afternoon, yeah No not this afternoon This is what we've been saying Oh not this afternoon So what, what we could do He wants us to call no Well, well, no no, it's not that, listen, listen now, now listen to Santa now, listen to Santa, if you went home, if you went, listen to me now if you went home the day before Philip goes to get everything ready for him so you haven't No, I'm taking, no it's not that, he's got to go home and be settled Well that's what I'm saying that's what I'm saying, if you go then the following day we'll bring Philip and then by which time you most probably got news about the old codger here do what, it just seems easier for you that's all If I get, it'll take the twenty four hours to settle in,don't you think so Arthur? erm, he'll rush us out now, we can't No we won't, we'll stay here Listen, right, we'll sort it yes you are He's not, he can't do, he's got nothing to do with this actually, he's got nothing to do with it I can't he's in the hands of these people here, who tell him what to do and what not to do He's really, you, you know, he's no he won't No, I don't say a dicky bird to Oh It's nothing to do with him that's a change, that's a change No Oh you're getting better no he'd, he's got to do as he's told and he knows that and that's it and at the moment she says we don't know so we don't know, but we know that sooner or later it's I'm not we know it's sooner or later It's gonna be pretty imminent Shh, let's shut up about it I'm not to read shut up I'm not to read shut up shut up Yeah we'll make our minds up That means she'll make her mind up and tell us, yeah we'll make our minds up, the royal we My husband and I I might see somebody tonight, I might not Oh you'll see somebody Er Arthur What? my husband and I Are forever rowing no, my husband and I No, we've come, we've come to the agreement that what ah, we will make up our minds Yes We will We will My husband and I will decide I, God Well stop bossing You'll be okay Alright, we'll get off and have a visitor's night yeah, but he's gonna do it, he is gonna do it, he's gonna do it And he's he is gonna, yeah he's so busy I did tell her that about two days he's so busy doing other people's jobs, he can't Well he's so busy about to do it and getting himself ready to do it, that he is gonna do it though This morning he was playing erm, zombies, he had a double sleeping bag, two sleeping bags and made a, an enormous, erm, a double bed out of it and he was inside it Yeah I'm a zombie, and I said get it off your head lad, I'm a zombie, who, who, walked downstairs so, there's a big plant there and, it's ever so large mind ya, sent it flying, I'm a zombie bang He had it flying then? He looked at me gone out, absolutely gone out and I clouted him and he's what's the matter? And there's this thing scattered all over the place coming home at fifteen and he's still playing at zombies hmm, oh God But he, I mean, he has because it's hard to, and he can't settle down to it He's got a lot of everything to do ain't he? Poor Paul I mean the mm crosswords Cleaning out that garage, honestly I mean that it's, I've never seen anything like it, he must of that day Yeah he must of done Arthur, he moved and pulled everything, he's ever such a good boy, he's says to ya, I don't know why he says but I can eat as much as I can, said I never get fat, I said I know why you don't get fat you use half your energy up in your jobs That's right every bit of energy he uses Yeah, it's his jaw, a jaw tongue I think jaws and tongues use up more energy than anything else Yeah, I do Are you ready then? Yeah, better put me coat on No Oh ready, ready for this, this crossword I put me coat on we're not going anywhere, that was Scilly,nineteen down, stop cease Stop cease fifteen down, state, state for example, say, fifteen across, we're doing well here aren't we? Fifteen across machine gun from the er faster I haven't scored any yet from the er faster perhaps all the things to visit right Yeah that's er, you what? Are your bowels alright? Yeah Have they had to give you an enema? No That's sun hat, anagram of sun hat, we're doing well here, N, S, I, G, N S places U, H, A, T right we're doing well here father, were doing well, four down, I get it here, double S oh no it's upset isn't it? oh what I think I was moving Oh I see I was waiting for the ambulance the ambulance just came oh good Don't, the only thing yeah and see what happens but I mean as I say Yes alright yeah that's what I'm saying is at the moment the thing is you I don't want you rushing backwards and forwards like a bloody yo-yo I don't think you no I think it's actually I think it's actually green when they can't visit, he's going to have to come and visit and that's when yeah to get in the car to go to the hospital Yeah I think that's his one yeah He goes to pieces, he's lost all confidence ain't he, in himself and he's getting worse and you try to tell him but Ah, it's beaten me, only a couple Take it with you Charlie No I'll let you do it, I, I've pointed you in the right direction Yeah after he's organized and bossed and He hasn't done that at all you are amazing or organizing and bossing I'm in a different, I'm on a different planet to this one no, And whatever you do, whatever you do don't forget to get get two of them No, I'll get get two four-pinters who said that? Paul, he's Paul will tell you anything he's the class monitor you see, that's what it is I said oh I Yeah, aye, he's alright I said right, I said to I don't bother to all the I said oh dear Paul Tony told his risque joke at dinner didn't he? Oh just after finish eating On this, on this bleeper? No it's not on this Oh I hope not he wouldn't of told it if it gone on this it's only that one isn't it? Oh no, no, he told that one, he told some weird ones that go on and on and on and on and the end is Oh yeah No punch line there's nothing to it, it's aargh When, when Pat and Ann was at Notre Dame, Pat used to sell, tell stuff oh and they went on and on and on Yeah and they got boring in the end cos they went on, you know about a bit too, you've got to stop Mm, well it's supposed, they're designed to do that aren't they, so at the end of it you're ready to throttle them, when you got the punch line it's on telly Oh my goodness Is that on telly? Yeah How the dickens you've been listening to It's alright, don't worry, don't worry I can't understand a word he says he gets there in the end Oh, oh well that's then We're not asking anybody I know no wonder he was bright Yes is he pardon? yeah, with us, sorry, there we are it's still on doctor's Leave him don't, let him do what he wants to do I thought he might want to go out there for a little while She's, he's been round there Oh things are happening the goldfish, seen the size of those fish? They're worth a bit when they're like that aren't they? Yeah Alive Oh yes Those in that pond are the erm oh aye, there's fish in it they're that size yeah you know the other night you were on about the fish that you had for your tea Mm about that size, there's a few less today, have you noticed? Yeah, had fish for tea Yeah, had goldfish the other night, goldfish and there's been some very good compliments flying round this place as far as the service is, the meals are prepared Oh yes it is good stuff It is good stuff is it? Oh yeah, by the way he's got to stay until after Sunday lunch Oh aye, yeah, you're gonna have your whisk haven't ya? We'll bring you out after Sunday, I'll tell, we'll tell them that we'll bring them out this Sunday and take him in next Saturday He says, he er in a bottle Really? So you finished it off We, we had the er the what? This always comes in the the bottle does? Yeah Ah does it? Ah Have to water it down when they get to him that's why, that's why he's in So who, who has the drop of the hard stuff in here then? Everybody Everybody like they've had in the corner, he likes it does he? Oh yes what happens if it runs out, have they got another bottle that's I've, I've no idea You'll have to find out won't you? You're allowed one and one only, do they not come back for seconds do they? it's er normal Get down the pub say when I've got a terrible stammer oh dear Oh, bet, bet you spill a lot though when you drink it don't ya, right down your throat it goes I've never known anywhere where they do that Oh yeah, mm, the thing these days I live in the past I do You do, I'm afraid you do I'm afraid I do you never know there's me look at it here You should of seen them this morning, Paula was lined up with her pills and then he stood next to her with his pills and erm the first time I've taken a pill for years and years and she said, my taste and my smell The taste trying to get my taste back and my smell back yeah, but it came back the other day didn't it? Yeah but it, no don't know, no it's horrid innit? it's all catarrh she says It's all er doesn't sound like it does it? No you don't sound as if you've got No she says I do, the doc Yeah, catarrh I tell you, I tell you what it was I'll have a Polo, give us a Polo I tell you what is good for catarrh Arthur is Have you got any grapes? No You've got, I can see bowls of 'em Yes There are, look at that, it's a hospital Polo there's a bit already been taken out of it Yeah, he's already eaten some Have you, er have you seen that Polo advert on the er, on the telly? On a The Polo advert, when Polos were first invented Mm the Polo on each mint on the hole Mm was laboriously knocked out, chipped out chipped out, aye and of course we had a machine doing all that work, it was no longer done by hand it was done by machine Knocked out by machine yeah, and he, the hand, the hand as a chisel Mm revolving it, two hands doing the first job just changed to a machine a, a machine, yeah Mm, that was to the bits in the middle, don't tell you that do you think that's true? Must have got machines to do it round like that mm, how'd they do it? Hell of a skilful job that, to carve Polo on each Polo mm I can't do this, it's too hard, it's tart, four letters What for, what Tart Yeah, but what's the clue? Tart Tart four letters Four letters No, can't have that, pie, cake what, is there any letters been there? No, no I'll give you one with a three letter one, first letter R, clue, rank could it be row, rank, row Oh what's that I was thinking of rank like, officer's and things like that Yeah couldn't be a row could it? Couldn't be what? A row R O W ranks, the rank of something R O W ain't it, row? No not R O W is it? Yeah it is now, yeah oh Tart savoury food item, first one D last one T, six altogether, savory food item D and the last one was? Was T and there's six altogether Six altogether renowned, famed if you're renowned ain't it? Sorry, have you got it? No Give you another one, standard, four, first one is I no, they're too hard aren't they? Much too hard How'd you spell occasional? No it's too many letters occasional I think of that It's not cartoon here, can me dad borrow the racing page? And a fiver and a fiver, no, he must of put a bet on, borrowed the paper and borrowed the money to put the bet on same day dry cleaning service, you can pick it up at two minutes to midnight madam hmm can't come to terms with it Be that concentrating, it's too much effort to concentrate, yeah Paul's thinking about his homework He's probably done something you don't know, you haven't seen Yeah, I mustn't put the lad down Yeah, he's been working all day Paul Yeah, he was doing a bit of drama this morning wasn't he? I don't know A zombie A zombie, yeah oh he said show me how to carve the chicken He said show me how to carve, actually I bet he'd make a good chef He made the gravy, Paul? and he made the gravy and he He can make gravy he said there's fat on this gravy and So Tony came along and said no it's not it's oil, fat is oil, when is oil fat, when it's, oh God He's quite good you know, Paul He's what? He's a good cook, he knows what he's doing Yeah, yeah, he's, he's, have you ever had one of his pizzas? Had it, I You know one of his that he makes? No I haven't had a pizza You want him to get you to make a pizza, you know how you buy these pizzas, nothing to them, brilliant pizza Mm get him to make you pizza, brilliant, I'm not joking what have the He cooks really nice yeah oh yeah, it'll take him all day to get ready for it, psyching himself up, mentally prepare himself to get into the kitchen yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah but he does he gets on with it Cooking? No anything, he get, he's like Paula he gets on with it True, true I mean he doesn't stand and dither and think, that's not yeah, he can't he, he can't stand and dither, he moves around a lot and doesn't think if only he could stand and dither and think No, you shouldn't talk Paul Oh come on he's Oh he's a good kid Paul yeah but, she's the one I spoke to the other day, she says you're a character Did she? Yeah, she said he's a right character isn't he? She said she, she liked his erm pyjama bottoms look at that how far we are from the rain, right across the middle Yeah, oh yeah he said it's like a spring like day he's saying in the South East finest Southern over Scotland tonight and what is it here? Lovely tomorrow, erm, two or three tonight That's nice Yeah Certainly is Did they give you the results? Yeah I'll ask her, she's the one I spoke to before Oh they're talking about medication Yeah, they're up to their eyes in there They're up to their eyes in it, you can't ask them while they're, they're it's not fair going home on the Sun Saturday, he said well looking forward to Where, where d'ya leave it, it's not at home is it? Is it at home? I don't know if it, whether he has got it at home Or a hostel whether he's decided to and now he's too ill to be able to, to look after himself Yeah, so yeah, poor old sod It could be anything Yeah I know you can be any age from fifty onwards Yeah, that's what we was saying wasn't it? Yeah, exactly that. Yeah, there's enough people coming to see me Oh yes I know what I mean to say is They're all the same yeah on his own Yeah Yeah How much time do you both say lad with the glasses, was it a big lad? No, he used to work for or was that Wallie the one with the big lad with the glasses? There was one of them a big with glasses Oh yeah that was Wallie That was Wallie, Bob was the oh yes, yes, yeah, remember Bob yeah He was another, I had no bother really, no family almost servant type you know, he tied himself to you and you feel he couldn't do you enough for you Mm, mm, yeah, but I, but the lad he was the, he was a Communist who worked for you lived round the corner to us Oh yeah What was, what was he called? Erm you mean what was his first name? Norman, Norman Not Norman Norman erm he was a red hot red wasn't he? Yeah Red hot red Slimmish chap and quite, quite cuddly wife I never saw the cuddly wife She was a, she was a nurse I never saw her there's a sister We, we, we I did over Christmas, I did some Carlton and Alfy down there no, no that's where I met, I had a Christmas holiday job, couple of days worked for him, I was lugging these vices up You were working for me? Yeah Oh no it wouldn't be Norman would it No, no, the name Nor the name Norman doesn't ring a bell No yeah he was a red Frank Frank Frankie was a little man A little man he was it Frank? Oh he had a family, he had a family It's on is when you get a click at the end. No, doesn't fit on it's stopped recording change the change the tape so a su but going back to that she was so convinced that it was gonna be a heck of a job that she would save us time by taking all the clothes out putting them somewhere else and I said it'll take us three minutes Ten minutes time on with two people Just go and see what he wants. Oh some of that. What do you want drink? Yes, please yeah. There you are. Your wish is my command. Okay then. Lovely! Thanks very much. Is that enough? Do you Yeah. want a bit more? No I'll be alright there thank you. Okay then. Do you want that a bit closer Yep. for you. Yeah, over there. Okay? Yep, thanks. Ah. If you need anything just give us a shout, alright? Everything is so cheap there. Big job, I mean that job on the on the phones was ! Oh your oh your extension? Yeah. Yeah. You like don't you? It's looks very good. Those, you know your little pieces of wood that hold the glass Yeah. to stop Yeah. them s sliding forward they want, they want staining, yeah. Yeah , alright. That's all. It looks it looks passable dunnit? It certainly gives daylight in doesn't it? Mm. Yeah. I Yeah has it been too obvious? In fact it's an improvement rather than an alteration, it's you've actually improved it haven't you? But you will let me have my tablets before I go? Yes, definitely. Would you? Thanks a lot. Can't to you how much to take. No she's er she's so she's so keen at not letting go of a discussion she comes back, she's like a terrier! She worries it and worries it and Yeah. and gets it by the throat and worries it! It must be very frustrating to try and sort something out with her! it's all apologies. out before we've absolutely abominable! Has she always been like this or is Yeah. it always? Yeah, oh! Come back to it and back to it and back to it! She if you've only had to have an you can't just say ooh watch your and er every time we've away you take four times as much as it, it's possible to wear! Sounds very familiar this does! Yeah. Did you never get to the stage where you to took stuff out or Oh yeah definitely! I had to do that. No He had erm you know whe when you go in a caravan and yo you you you're towing weight aren't you? Yeah. So you've got to watch what you take and if it's not necessary you don't take it if you've got any sense but if you're gonna take everything on the assumption ju just in case, the just in case , just in cases you know, don't work all these the fail-safes ten times over you're overloaded, ah but you're so much unnecessary weight it all comes back unused, untouched. And with Paula loading the caravan she would be putting stuff in, I would say why are we taking that? Will you have enough? And I with that you'd have one hell of a row over something daft but it was di got this idea in her mind so I can see now where it's come from. Oh aye, you ought to meet her mum! Oh beautiful! Anyway so yes, she's at the bungalow she'll be back tonight. What's happening with Philip I don't know whether Philip will be able I think what we'll have to do is one of us will have to drive the Metro Yeah. er the other one of us will erm take the one of the other cars and put Philip in that and drive him there. And then you know, we've got a car there that we come back in otherwise we won't be able to come back. How's Paul today? Mm. Is he Pardon? How's Paul? Paul? The lad Paul . Oh he's a he says until the likes of . But he's doped up to the eyeballs and he's in you know, painkillers. Painkillers, yeah. Yeah. Oh. He doesn't know what's coming to him. Have you seen any doctors this morning? Yeah, I've seen the lot. Mr ? yes. Ooh! five hundred, five hundred I could only say he wasn't, five o'clock last night he was no so he went to the one doctor, so to the erm what's gonna happen when they when he, when they can go down the doctors that's first of all go into this and after ten, twenty four hours doing this kind of thing for forty eight hours up. So you can't you can't rush this? I it has got to go A hundred eighty five . it's got to So if it's got to take forty eight you would of thought you'd have you'd have known today then? Does he expect it to be, the results I think today? Oh yeah. They would expect them today? Yep. Oh yes he's think it's very . They can do anything but it's that one. This one? That's the one. Yeah. I will do that. Tha that's your drug sheet. They've come to wake this gaffer up. Who's gaffer? This lad nearest to you? No I didn't mean my gaffer, no the other one. Oh the other one is your gaffer. When you say you're not feeling so good is it sort of headache-ish feeling Aye off it? Just feeling off it, yeah. Yeah, there's a bit of that going around you know, you could have just that. I'm continually dra drained my I seem to get tired,or out of sorts Mm. my eyes nuisance. What do you mean? It feels, feels it, I feel as if I've got something in my eye all the time. Like sand? Yeah. Like a like a rough yes,. When was the last time you went to the optician? Just before you came here I think. Over two years ago then? Yeah. I'm due to go. I think you need to go. Yeah. Oh I do need to go now I mean . Yeah but if you tol if you told the optician that they might might be able to do something about it. If you don't tell him it though and you assume he's gonna to pick it up just by looking at your eyes he's not going to or she's not going to pick it up. Yes. Have you got an optician down here? Has brother? Yeah. Philip? Philip's been going but I don't know how to get to it. Go home this afternoon? You're not. And he give me all the jollop ready? Take this, take this, do this, do that, you can fucking kiss is better! Always seeking attention! ! I see. You know, seeking attention. Yeah. I delegate these in here The chatterbox do it. Find out. I would of thought they'd have come and said to you, you know, as soon they got the results say the news is this. Did they do that when the first biopsy report through? No, not not How did yo how did you find out? When they were prattling while they were prattling. You listened in? Yeah. So nobody actually came along to you? No, they were see they were talking, when no, when they prattle you're in tune with the prattle you not outside the prattle in precluded completely. So they're all prattling away? Yeah. And you prattle along with the prattlers? Yeah. So ah well! I'll pop back I'll have a look . But i it's funny how what happens now? Does this lump remain in me? Or take it out? Well this is what you need to talk to them about isn't it? Things like that. What if it's gone? What was that? That you will have it? Is it It's in you isn't it? Is it,i i is it, does it irritate you? Does it itch at you? Does is gnaw at you? It just sli slightly gnaws at times. Like your ear. That's slightly That's slightly Yeah slightly gnaws at you. Feel a slight irritation. I should I say. I better find these. I think I can you see but it's Yeah. been there all the time. Yeah. See Haven't they given you any any cream for your skin? They have. But have they given you any cream that you can't get other than through a doctor? Oh yeah. Cos i is it pre by prescription or di All by prescription. Ah well then. Yeah it's only to keep the itching under control. Mhm. I mean, that's all doctors know I mean when it itches it itches and I scratch it and then I cre cream out and put on. Mm. I mean I asked for cream when I came here. And she couldn't give you any stronger than a certain level could she? No, she couldn't give me erm the the, the one Won't give you Betnovate will they? They won't give me Betnovate cos Is that on pre is the from the doctors that's on prescription. i the lower one down to that. Yeah. They will give you Betnovate if it's, if it's absolutely necessary. But this one will do. Has, has Betnovate got steroids in it? Oh aye. I think that's the reason. Oh dinners are starting being brought round dad. Wouldn't say no! What have you got? Hydrocortisone cream. Does does it do any good? No. Oh. Tony used to find, you know when he wears erm he used to have problems with yo he still has Yes he did. still has, didn't he? He used to find that er They cha he changed it. change it every so often if Yeah. you kept going u with it it seemed to lose its strength. Yeah. Or it seemed to lose its beneficial influ influence on your skin. Yeah. The old chap in the corner's got them. Has he got ? Is it, is it the man that? Granddad in the corner. That granddad? No that granddad. Not really, I never get a holiday in the summer! Never get a holiday! Never get a holiday. That was the granddad that was over there when you first came in. Is that the old guy who's That was the ol he was that chap was in that bed when I came in. Oh. And that's his wife that runs round after him. No, it's a different one then. Eh up! Salad is it? Is that for you, no? Looks a good meal this. I've forgotten what I've ordered. Steak and chips I think. An eight ounce steak chips side salad mushrooms Yes please! Can't I tempt you with you that? Mm? Can't I tempt you with Oh aye that? Yeah. Yeah, mm?a nice mixed What? grill. A mixed grill. Mm. Well, what we're having for a dinner for lunch I think we're having bacon and eggs and sausage and things like that. A, a, a grill, a real good grill. Ee! There you are! Here you are! Here's the food wagon. Can they remember what you've my mother used to Mm. A smooth walk, have you noticed how she just glides across, there you are! What have you got then? Side salad Turkey with mushrooms. And chips. I'll just do this crossword. I'll do your crossword for you. I tell you what Yep. they make a good chip. Ha! Nice chips are they? Bearable, attend . Have you finished with that? Excuse my back No, I'm doing this! and, and I'll forgive your ignorance! I was doing that. Oh . Oh! Can I sit on the bed? Yeah. Not a am I allowed? It's a bit of lump there. That's Oh ! These are quite lumpy. Oh ! Mm? There we are. Do you want a chip? No, you're alright I wouldn't no wouldn't take a A dying man's chip! A dying man's chip ! Would you give your last chip or is it, would you give your last Rolo to me? It looks, it looks good that! It is good. How are you getting on with him? Taste bud stuff. I could smell something last night er But your breath smells you realize that don't you? No does it? Mm. Oh. That's We we now whether that's a good sign or whether a bad sign I don't know. Don't know could be. I'll have to have a Mm? I'll have a I dunno what she says is what it is apparently it's right across, right through is erm A blockage inside. a blockage yeah it goes right across you, you've got you've got catarrh and I'm thinking you can only have catarrh if you've got a, you know if you had a real bad cold and or the flu or something but she said it's all in there. I've gotta keep taking these things one a day. Yeah, yesterday I could smell things first time for ages and ages! But it's been doing that you see, it's coming at it's come and gone. And when it's come it's usually been a case of you can smell something horrible like erm you know when they're emptying the slurries out in the pig farms. But usually no can't smell anything there. Does it smell then? Mm? Does it smell good? No. No, oh cos I can't smell anything. The food tastes like to erm cardboard! You know it's all it's all just one taste Mm. it's like a flat taste. Yet last night I could taste erm er the food we had for tea last night and it's lovely when you can taste. Yeah. You just don't realize that, but when it dri drifts away from you. Cor! You're enjoying this aren't you? Yeah. Ten more of them I might be . I dunno. What on earth are you doing? Taking the skin off? You've done well. There you are. Can't eat it properly Can't you? The skin. The skin off the tomato? Nobody came , no. Some did, save me going to bed! Peel the skin, put the skin . Ooh a bit of roughage does you good then. Maybe you should eat that knowing your complaint! I thi I think he's coming up here. It looks good. It tastes good. By golly it does you good! That's got in there those got those at seven . You know, when you've hit the drains at the bottom. Oh yes! Yeah. the er the manhole Mhm. and digging stuff out of there then after he'd gone the whole with all the dairy round it it was sprouting with er . Seeds just go down there. Say it was sewage farms that's that's what they have you've got a drip on the end of your nose. Oh. When I Oh, you've got a bit of a cold haven't you? Been and payed the poll tax. The poll tax, oh. Cos I got told this afternoon he haven't made a very good job of this cleaning up ! I understand is he took some of his out out of their storage, shouldn't be shifted I said not worth really. What do you mean? I said and er sat and he said I'll see to it. So he we came along dug the tomato plants up and took them home? Somebody come over. I dunno, on the one side down a bit so he wasn't so noticeable and round the other side there's ! Oh. Supposed to be good for your back found it very strong though. What's supposed to be good for you? This. It's got iron in it hasn't it? Something like that, plenty of iron. That's why it's a green colour it's got iron in it. Mm, yeah. It's not perfect for me. I hear you didn't have er, you didn't enjoy your liver the other day? Ox liver or something is that right? It was so It was foul? Pity that cos lamb's liver's beautiful isn't it? Yeah. Gorgeous. Well I've never seen anybody carve erm a tomato before. This, this noo noo nouveau cuisine. You'd never think we could eat could eat proper food. Oh proper! Possibly there's one Bet the queen doesn't do that! What do you want to do? No, I'll go back home and get some bacon and sausage and eggs, see to myself. And I've gotta go in and do the budget and get the budget today. Got to sort that out. Gotta find this two and a half percent that has dropped us in it! You know he's given us all seven and half Yeah. and there's a two and half percent short fall that we've gotta fight so I'm gonna se see where I can get it from. See which courses they can put round what and squeeze a bit of money out of it. Good job they didn't give us more than seven and a half percent isn't it? Mm. I think we'd have been right up the creek without the paddle! It's very good at the actually oh! Or they're pun they're pouring money into the countryside now forty five million, he's going in for these developments er to create a better countryside just announced this week. I wonder why? I wonder why? It's the most considerate and caring government we've ev we've ever had over this last fortnight! And it isn't at all, cos he knows possibly the other way and they won't get in. Right. For how many years have we been told it's tax payers' money do you remember Maggie and the tax payers' money, it's like this animal somewhere called the tax payer but it came out of the wall as if we weren't one of them and that we had to look after the tax payers' money. What are they doing with my money now? They're bribing people left, right and centre with it! I object to that! Mind you, I suppose if the others were in they'd do exactly the same thing wouldn't they? Yeah. I don't think you should be allowed to tinker around with the with things like this say within six months of a general election and that's why they should have fixed term appointments. This is why I know them, it's loads of people to get to decision but do er this representation isn't it? Proportional representation. cross section. Yeah,prov provided you don't get like you have in Israel at the moment where you got ve ve very minor parties the religious Mm. parties that take about three, four percent of the vote but they have got far more sway over the government than their vote really. No, they haven't! It shows. Definitely! Well they're holding the government Israel there. yes, but it's the rest of the government the centre that doesn't happen. Well i it is, they're building on the West Bank Yes. in, in wha what is Jordan really, not what was Jordan, what is Jordan they call it now, they call it the occupied territories it seems to clean it up if you call it that. But these they've erm the religious parties you've got build there, you know we've got to expand Israel this is our homeland and if you don't do this we're not going to support you. Mm. And the Americans are saying if you build that we pull out our our, our aid to you. It's, it's a bit like in Northern Ireland where you've got your the religious erm influence they've got somebody like Ian Paisley the strength of that man and his group Yeah. phenomenal! That a don't you want your lettuce? Finished all? Thank you, thanks a lot. Sweet is on its way. No real need for them, you know, they're bloody What's for pud do you know? Yep there's er a you select them. Oh it's a the trolley comes round is it and you choose? Mm. The cheese trolley and the sweet trolley and the gateaux trolley! No? Mm? I think I'll, I'll go after you've had your sweet anyway cos otherwise mm, once I've had my dinner two be about three o'clock before I can get in to do this budget. So I'll go after you've had your pud. I'll have a word with the doctor. Pardon? I'll have a word with the doctor. He's there now I think. Is it, now with the two nurses there? A physio by the looks of it. Time to go home time to go home . Alright darling? Yes. Alright. You could still be in Monday couldn't you? Pardon? You could still be in Monday. Could be, but I hope not. I know you are. I don't think they'll send you out today. I think the earliest you can go, be out now is tomorrow at the earliest! Did they send you out on people out Saturdays and Sundays? Yeah. But this biopsy lab does it work through the weekend? No. So i Tonight for sweet Ice cream fruit cocktail jelly and ice cream or apple. I'll have jelly and ice cream. There's rice pudding. What are you going for? Jelly and ice Ooh yes! cream. Wow! Rice pudding thank you. Bit of rice pud? Thank you. Jelly and ice cream. For you, what would you like? Do you get erm do you get a balloon with it jelly Mm. and ice cream? And a cracker? Mm, and a cracker. I mean a cra Christmas cracker, you know jelly and ice cream, Christmas party. You can have cheese and biscuits. Oh Golly! What more do you want? I want going home! You'll enjoy it, what do you want? What would you like John? Er, I'll have erm yellow jelly ice cream and a bit of . Yellow jelly. That'll do for me. You ready. What? What? You got another spoon? That looks good! Looks good aye, yeah! It's alright that. You know at least the erm Should have had Paul here. That's a good idea these these little tubs. Mm. Why's that? They're it's a portion. Aye, yes. Guarantee the same portion every time. That's roughage you see. That's your roughage. Put ten ton of that stuff down you! So they're orderlies are they that I think so, yeah. So I reckon tonight you're gonna get mother and Paula round. Paula's a lot better he slept first time last night right through without Mm mm. getting up and coughing and wheezing and all the rest of it and they actually slept very well last night. I think she down to five a day now five today is it? Mm. What did she start on, was it nine or eight? Whatever it was. You know she's doing the count down little red things she's got that she swallows she's down to five, I think it's five. I think Tony's made up his mind for which he's, school he's he's going to go to. He's got written . But the, well we should have the forms in completed today and in the post today but I think he'll go to Northgate. Which one's that one? The one close to here? The one down the road here. Mm. I was impressed with his how he didn't disregard one you know Yeah. you know out of hand, he didn't do it Yeah. out of hand. He, he balanced the strengths of one against another Yeah. and what I was a really impressed with he, he balanced the, the human, what he felt were the human strengths of the school what it felt like you know, what the people were like in it and erm I think that's made his decision more difficult because he hasn't just gone on the ec the academic side of it he looked at the, the all round aspects of it. Still and where wo where would get most, most support. That's it, and where is he likely to feel most comfortable. Mm. You know, which one is more like him. Mm. You know yo you can be in the best place in the world but if yo if you don't fit in, if you don't feel right there you're not going to flourish are you? No. And once he makes this decision he he can't after a year or two say well no that was wrong, I won't I'll er I'll change now because he's only got two years there. So he's, he's really got to get it right from the word go. But whether he will I hope he chooses right for him. But it will be his decision. Where he's going? Yeah. He says, you know, what do you think and I say well look it's up to you and I put the question back to him and say well what do you think? And that gets him talking then. You've really enjoyed that haven't you? You've had jelly, ice cream and and fruit, fruit cocktail. What's for tea, have you any idea? Wha have you chosen it? Yeah, I've chosen pudding. You've got That's not bad. Yeah ! Don't they have a wine list with your menu? No. So ideally when you come out is Sunday afternoon innit? Is it two o'clock? I'm not bothered! Get you a wee dram! Go and see this He might go up there now. Just nurses now. Mm. They could be on their dinner. Having their dinner. thing about Well I'll find out. And I, I'll ask, if they don't, they don't know. I can but ask. Enjoyable. What do you say? Do you want me to ask for you? Okay. Yep, okay I'll only be a minute. Are you being seen to? No, erm just Mr is there any news about his biopsy? No, but Mr did, did tell him this morning. Yes, just wondered if there's come No. through this morning. Haven't got Nothing at all? Yes, no, not yet. When is he likely to be home then? Could be any time now, we're just waiting tha Mr explained to him this morning, you know, why it, it ta takes so long Yeah. cos it's It's, yeah explained that to me, just wondering Yeah. if there's any chance. Okay then, thanks a lot. Hopefully later on. Right thank you. I will come and you know, er let you know. Thank you. Did you get the , no? No news. No news? Nope, no news no. Hopefully today she said. Right. Hopefully. Yes. So when you're And what is what does hoping mean? Would that mean tomorrow or ? Now, is hopefully, today. Oh! Hopefully today, that's all she said. She said Mr explained everything that's all there was, you know there was nothing else. Mm. And I said maybe you'd had heard between Mr Mm. and but no. Never mind! Never mind! Never mind! I think it'll be oh it's dinner time now they'll all be on their dinner, they'll all be on their lunch won't they? Oh yeah, you can go and see coming back about four o'clock. Mm, yeah. So the, the earliest you'll be home is tomorrow afternoon isn't it? I would say, yeah. The earliest. If not it'll be Sunday. But if, if do if you don't get it through this afternoon it won't be Sunday will it? It won't be Sunday, home Er Monday. be Monday afternoon Tuesday. Yeah. I think that's what it'll be. Anyway, better get off, okay? Yes, thanks for coming. Yeah, and er tonight no idea? Most likely Paul and mother. Might get the lads, you might get a pack of cards again and a did they leave you their cards? Yeah. Better give me a game gonna thrash you whenever I could of thrashed at whatever! Course you could of done! Can you bring in the, do you need the erm big board? No, the crib board? The crib board. Mind you, you could use a piece of paper and erm Yeah. what do you call it? A pen. Can't you? Do you wanna quick game? Give No. you a quick game. You sure? Give you a quick I don't thrashing at crib! First to sixty on the back of there. Go on! Get your cards out. Ex expect to be thrashed! Right now can we go and sit down? Coming down there? Right, ready? I'm a demon at this! Okay? Fives two up a bit the volume is like on this way you put that up, oh we where's the gear stick don't wanna get that turning with the gear stick. You okay, right? Yep. It'll be okay. Yep, well Alright? That's oh ah well this is the last visit. Oh we'll be seeing him tomorrow. I mean at to hospital. Oh yeah. Oh won't we visit him in hospital tomorrow morning? No, no . We've gotta get over to the bungalow Move his furniture. and rearrange the furniture in the bedroom to the way he wants it. Yeah. So that's gonna take a bit of Lifting, yeah. lifting and the best thing the to do is to do it when your grandma's not there. Otherwise not that grandpa. Well, I think what'll happen tomorrow is one of two things, either your mum and grandpa will go to the hospital and pick grandpa up Yeah. oh, must find this seat belt ca can't find it won't go in it's flashing at me saying I haven't got my seat belt, but I have or and we'll go off to Southwold Yeah. and get the bedroom sorted out. Yeah. And we'll take with us whether it'll be yourself and me, or Tony and me or All three of us. you sa the three of us but whoever it is it'll be with Philip as well Aha. so and we'll go in the Metro. Alright yeah. Yeah? Yeah. Your mum drives down to Ipswich. Leicester picks up the picks up grandpa Yeah. and takes him from the hospital up to Southwold. Where is sh yeah. So we we're there With a bottle of wine. Can we just take that, take that spare cassette? Yep. Otherwise it's gonna fly all over the place! Keep hold of it. Erm, we're there we're sorting that out the other thing is you see grandma will have to go shopping tomorrow. Oh yeah. Take them out er So you'll ha she'll have to get this her supplies in her provisions. Her milk, yeah. The milk and the milk and the milk. And the other . Yeah. And then o over to the bungalow, now she'll either do that she'll do the shopping before we go off to the bungalow, maybe we'll pop down to Asda and Yeah. and get it there then go back back home swap cars, pick up the Metro and drive over to Southwold. If we do that we can only ta I can only take one other passenger along with your grandma and Philip so that could mean either yourself or Tony being at home Oh staying at home oh yeah! or going down into Ipswich with your mum and coming up with grandpa. Yeah. Has mum told Anne or or hasn't she? Told who? Anne. No, she's gonna phone Felic up in New Zealand Oh flipping New Zealand! tonight because ten o'clock tonight here Is ten o'clock is New Zealand in the morning. I know , yeah. So if ten o'clock here is at night, it's ten o'clock in New Zealand excuse me! Is that earlier or In the morning. They're So twelve hours in front of us exactly aren't we? Ten Really? ten o'clock, ten o'clock Exactly! Oh! Ten o'clock at night, ten o'clock in the morning. So Felicity's just waking up oh! Lucky old thing! So Felicity now, well yes, they'll just be getting getting up. And she's just getting up ! or opening her eyes. Oh lucky old So her! your mum's gonna phone Felic Yeah. and she'll phone Anne she'll most likely phone Joan and the rest of them. Yeah. To le that the end is not nigh he's gone it's postponed He's tricked us again, yeah. He's tricked us again. Stop That playing with that! Do you hear that? The champagne's going on top of him! That Champagne's gro growing what? It's gonna be poured over him! Poured over him? Yeah. I don't think he'd appreciate that! Poured down him, yeah but not over him. Christ I've been up and down this road this week! Get to this hospital with your eyes shut now! Not far off. What a way to spend your holiday eh? Oh it's a good end to the holiday. Oh yeah, couldn't of been a better end! This news is brilliant! Yeah. So he might get his wall built but he might have to wait a year before he starts it. We can give him a hand as well. Yeah but Like mixing cement I don't think he'll be making it this year Paul. No it's just tha he won't be but he might be doing light jobs like say putting, putting up pictures in about two months er er He was within a a whisker of death! Do you, he was as close to death if he hadn't have gone in se to Ipswich and seen the specialist at the time he did er Yeah. another day or two and that would have been it! Really? He was as close to death as that! He was in pain when he'd just got here. Yeah, his body would have just couldn't have taken much more! Yeah. I mean he's made about fifty percent recovery in hospital hasn't he? Well when when the doctor saw him on a fortnight ago this Friday today, a fortnight ago today the doctor phoned the ward and said have you got a bed I've got a man here who's be who is between myself and my curry dinner time and you could be saving two people's lives my life cos he was so hungry Mhm. and your grandpa's cos he was so poorly. You know, when people pull out in front of you on the road It's annoying. they you brake Why do they do that? I don't know why do it then and then drive slowly! If they're gonna drive so slowly why do they He's even on the wrong side make these of the road! crazy manoeuvres to nip in front of you and then drive like a snail! I think we've got mum to thank as well for erm convincing the doctor to send him into Southwold. Well I think when your mum went Yeah. to see the family G P in Southwold I think that got things moving because I don't they would have done anything, they'd have just accepted that this is the end, you know, he's gonna die in agony. And when because the family doctor really know whe anything that was happening but was holding on the phone over the phone, oh he's got a pain you know. Those painkillers you've ar aren't good enough. Not, could you come out and have a look at the chap! I think you just assume that if you give somebody painkillers and they don't work, oh that's it! That's the end of the story. Bye bye to this world! Yeah. They failed to realize that you need it's your own body Yeah. it's your own body and you have got some say in what happens to it, or what doesn't happen to it. Aha. And if you're not satisfied with what is happening or not happening you should say something but grandma insists that she mustn't upset People mustn't upset the doctors Better to be ill. ooh if you upset the doctors when you're ill, when you're really ill they won't let you into hospital! Tha that's her attitude! Seventeenth century. I don't know what century it is but it's it's a crazy attitude! Yeah. Don't, don't upset them, don't say anything, don't ! Well this thing about this car Yeah. it's been going on now for what? This new car it's going on now for seven weeks Put your foot down and say I want that car whe if you don't, if you don't do it now we'll just change company! If you said that maybe they'd get it the next day wouldn't they? Well I don't know whether they'd get it but they don't want to upset people, the fact that they've been really inconvenienced by not having it doesn't seem to come into their thinking. The only people they don't want to upset are the people at the garage the fact that somebody isn't doing their job properly somebody's sitting on a form somewhere Oh yeah. not making a decision Like me. and they're allowed to get away with that sort of gently what was it his cosy middle job could ta you know where you don't make a decision where you everything around you is nice and cosy here if provided you don't make a decision nothing will happen! And if nothing happens it's even cosier! And so it goes on and on and until somebody gives them a kick up the backside they'll continue like that forever and ever amen and a day! Oh yeah. I, though remember erm And that's what your grandma doesn't want to upset people like that She won't in jobs she won't complain in a restaurant in jobs like that . will she? No! And if if the soup was cold she'd complain after it tell everyone how bad it was but she won't Well er I thi maybe, maybe well maybe that's why. that's typical of Britain! Yeah. We accept things. We shouldn't. That's where the Americans score over us Yeah. they speak out, they're clear what they want, what they don't want mind you they go over the top a little bit at times. With the yahoos and the screams and the what's happening over there? See it? It's a breakdown I think. Oh ! Sunday. Oh we'll have a game of crib tonight. I don't like crib! Well what do you fancy playing then? We'd played Chase the Maker last night that was brilliant! I had three attempts at trying to clear get all the hearts right, just keep . just lose. Yeah. Well he beat me at dinner at erm Oh aye. at crib. We had a game of crib at dinner. What's happening here? What's happening? Er Seven and half tons is it weight limit? Mm. Is this the new thing? They're trying to relieve the congestion on this Norwich Road Trying to stop these things? by trying to stop, yes. Well they can't stop that one cos the bakery's here. They can't stop the lorries coming over to the bakery cos the bakery's just on the road can they? Well they'll try. They'll have What do they do? Do they have a chain of people or a conveyer belt going across the football fields? No , they'll let everyone With bread on it! They'll let everyone but the lorries. Everyone but them. Or special I mean lorries will have with them and sa and say oh yes you can go and use this road. You have to pay for half of the upkeep of the roads. I wish they'd put more of the stuff on to the Why, why they didn't leave on to the rails. that erm other entrance open, I'll never know! The old Norwich Road entrance? Yeah why didn't they leave it open? Because you'd have got a queue of traffic here, you'd have had a terrible junction Ah yeah! here. You would of. Just back up there. Oh, this car could do with a car wash as well couldn't it? We're not going into a car wash. Oh! If you want Yeah. I'll give you a bucket warm water, warm soapy water and a good sponge Urgh! plenty of ho warm soapy water I dunno you keep the doing car wash! You can be the car wash. I don't want to. You can be mister automatic himself. That's a flipping joke though we cleaned everything! The Wisht! We didn't! You look at the back! It cleaned everything but the erm ro a the round number plate if it had if it had gone round to there again it would have done it. It wasn't the number plate, is was the whole of the back there, it didn't really clean the back. Oh yeah. There's a Christmas tree there. What? See it? Yeah. Yeah, I saw one in The lights on that car like a Christmas tree. I saw one erm I saw an actual Christmas tree up in erm you know the library when you come out in the road to library onto the main road? Which library? In the Ipswich library Yeah which on that road the he library road And you come out onto the main road? Yeah. The one runs across the the Crumpalls yeah. oh,Crumpalls Road, yes. Bury Street , yeah. Erm there's a shop erm that's right up when you come out at the library th on the er, pelican crossing I know where you mean but I can't Well there's a shop there's still got a Christmas I can't picture the shop. tree in it. A shop did? Yeah, still had a Christmas tree in his window ! Ever tell you about the erm a house Nottingham No. When I when I was learning to drive it was oh, right at the August, September time Yeah. and this house facing the the part of Nottingham they call the forest it's it's not Nottingham Forest but it's called the forest, it's where they have the goose fair each year. And it was one of a a long row of of Victorian I suppose semi er, semis or terraced, big houses, like these here bit Erm like those Yeah. okay? But I don't thi like these are detached or semi it was more like that, that's it, like that there Oh yeah. long rows, but they're semis as well aren't they? Anyway it was the type of house you looked into it and you expected to see cobwebs you know, sort of fustiness sor Yeah. erm as if a window had never been opened for years and years and years that type of a house. Yeah. It had the feel of it this little garden you know, the doors, the paintwork everything about it it gave you that feel. Ah home okay? And Yeah. erm I was driving past it learning to drive, concentrating like mad and the driving instructor er, said to me, and it was only the second what, second, third, fourth lesson, it was early on in the Yeah. lesson he said to me just look at Christmas in that house! And I'm concentrating on the road Yeah. and the traffic and it's Nottingham and it's a busy place he said look at that ! Like a fool I looked! And what happened? Nothing happened, but Oh yeah. I should never have looked and he should never really have said just look at that, oh aye! Feel right silly! Well well for years after it Yeah. when I drove past that Oh you used to I used to look in there and there was the Christmas tree and the Christmas decorations and they're always up right through the year they never took them down! So they're the first up with the Christmas tree decorations each year. The last down. And the last down. Oh ! Twenty to eight. Did Tony tell you his purple knight joke? Yes! Yeah. Indigo, red. What was indigo? Oh no, what the other one, the black knight? That's right. The black knight, I told you Oh no. I told you that in Spain No. I think when we were walking down you know in co in Compesso Yep. And walking along that erm early one morning erm that the they have a channel those one way channels Oh the erm Yeah,wha what are aqueducts. those things? Aqueducts, yeah went over water. Well it took me about er ten minutes to tell it, it just took ages and And what was his reaction at the end of that? Don't know Did he thump you? he did he got ! Black knight, black knight I was nearly at Pardon? What's he, black knight,black . Who does he know? Daren't say that to him! Who is pipping for? I dunno maybe his hor his horn is stuck! He had a bit of a cold this morning. Oh did he? Yeah. His eyes were a bit watery, runny nose I hope it doesn't start, if he gets home and starts with the flu ha! No, That's all he'll need! Poor chap! I hope he doesn't because erm the people on chemotherapy in that ward Mm. if they get a cold, they'll be in trouble! That's right. They erm They they've gotta be erm Pretty healthy. Yeah, we were talking to erm Yeah, try and keep it down, chemotherapy. we were talking to Ted the other day Yeah. and he says he Oh he's back? yeah, he says the main ingredient for the chemotherapy is periwinkle. What part of the periwinkle? One of the main, that's one of yeah and it's poison! Which part of the periwinkle? Dunno, I think it's the er, the sort of thing, I'm not sure? The what? I expect it's the petals and The petals? I'm not sure. Really? It's part of the flower. How much periwinkle have we got round our back door? A lot. A lot! Are you They've got periwinkle? Yeah that's what he said. The flower periwinkle? Yeah. Not winkles the No the periwinkle. the mollusc? That little tiny blue flower. Ah !bum bum bum bum bum bum bum bum We're doing well here! Doesn't take us long in the evening. Strange that isn't it? Traffic moves along smoother. Cor! There seems to be as much traffic Yeah. you see it always seems to re move more smoothly in the evening. It's a Friday tonight Pardon? It's Friday today so everyone's sort of relaxed and good. Ready for the weekend. Yeah. Maybe, maybe not. Some of the people are lucky you've got half term now. Half term skiing. Yeah, a lot of people have in our school do that summer. Really? Have you got Yeah. plenty going? Yeah. A and on the skiing trip, no fourth years allowed to go in that. Why's that? Let's, just a minute let get this He's er got stopped here. You've got the ma erm course maths coursework and it's gonna take place. Oh, and because it's going to gi go in to your Yeah then it'll coursework time coursework time? Yeah. It'll be si ski trip will be when we have our maths' coursework so the there was about ten fourth years going they're really annoyed! But the thing is we're going to Edale when we've got our maths coursework. Right. I want . interesting . They'll let you do a activity, this has been going for years but they won't let you. What, does everybody go on the Edale visit as well? There's about two people who don't usually. Well and maybe that's the reason why. What? Because you'll be going on two visits one to to the skiing and one to the Edale No, the reason why is cos it clashes with the coursework. But the time, the sessions of your coursework you mean? Yeah. Think so. Oi, imagine living in one of those houses there you'd be woken up all night by ambulances sw blaring away! I don't think they blare away as they come into the hospital. They only they only put the sirens on erm when they want to cle clear a way through traffic. Yeah. But if there's no need to er, make a loud noise Yeah but it gets them they don't especially they don't put er any sirens on. And if a patient's really ill they try to keep it as smooth and fast a ride as possible. I think if i if they they So they don't frighten them, you know, if you're lying there you're having a heart attack or you just had one the last thing you want to hear is sort of the noise of the siren, the panicking noise of a siren. Nee na nee na nee na nee na nee na na . Well this is the last time this hospital we hope. Oh yeah. Your mum'll do the rounds tomorrow the the visits tomorrow pick him up. The packing. That packing and the picking and the The, the portering, pick, pack, porter! Bet he's looking forward to it as well isn't he? There's a little bit of alliteration for you. Eh? Pick, pack, porter! Have you taken your seat belt off? Yeah. If we have an accident the insurance is null and void! Did you know that? No? Yeah. Suppose so! What do you mean suppose so! It's true so Shall I take this tape with me? Mm, yeah. Oh! Oh no, let's put this off. Lock it. I'll turn this off now. It's halfway through You're turning it on again. it's got put my on. Take it still no! Oh ! How you feeling then, okay? Alright. How's your cold? Is it a bit better? Still a bit rough? No, it Little bit it's alright. a bit in the eyes a bit A bit in the eyes, yeah. Yeah, you're a bit wet in the eyes. you're alright. Seems to be brighter in here for some reason. It what? It's brighter in here. Brighter? It's She hasn't three lights on tonight. And she hasn't got two, that means it's the first time I've seen those three lights on. Never noticed. Never noticed. Right so So I've had some more of brandy in those. Ooh my God! If You I put the kettle we can do it. It didn't quite hit the fan it didn't quite! Aye, well erm Paula will be coming here I think in the morning. Ha, yeah! I'll be taking the Metro mum's. We'll do your bedroom for you okay? Sort that out. Why, has she got it all in hand has she? No. No, not at all. But she says she hasn't . What she and she's done right. So I'll do that so in the i I it doesn't really matter now. But if he'll get it done, he'll get it done the next it's one less thing. But I don't happen anyway. So they When's she going to do it? Don't know yet. We haven't I left them to sort things like that out. She wants, she wanted me tonight to do your packing for you. Do my what? Your packing. Packing my clothes. Yes. Yeah. I think she showed us how to do No she said I'm not doing that. I said Paula can do that when she comes tomorrow. Yeah. Bring a bag with her. And there's no I'll come I'll do it for him! All I, all I want is a carrier bag. That's it. Yeah. But she said no I'd better come tomorrow with Paula as well. Paula said yeah, Paula said er I think I could I could , you know. Mm. But I'd nothing. So she's going to Southwold to Philip the Metro and me. Now but Paula Paul will come with us or Tony or whatever Paul and Tony can come with Paula okay? I have a feeling you'll have one of these two, yeah. Well the best thing to do when they're to come here I mean, they might be ready for coming here before you're off to er Southwold. Well it's gonna take you longer, it's gonna take them longer It is. to come here pick Yes. up your stuff Mm. sort yourself out, say cheerio and the rest of it here Yeah. all on, all on here I suppose really, cheerio, cheerio and the rest Actually, yeah. of it and then get up the A twelve Mm. so it's gonna take you Time. it's gonna take longer, by the time I leave Southwold In other words you're you're leaving you're both leaving together. If we leave about together. Cos I don't think . You're leaving out together. We'll, we'll get down at Southwold It takes us about forty minutes to get there Yeah. It'll take It'll take about by the time we've had our third cup of tea yo you might be leaving here. Oh yes, that's right. I dunno. No, we should be leaving it we er It takes ha about twenty minutes, half an hour to get here. Yeah, and you should get up you should get home in twenty minutes and er than I do. No, it only takes me about forty minute, no hold on! Er forty min Forty five minutes. Forty minutes plus five minutes. Well it'll take twenty minutes to get here and it'll take about forty minutes to get the other way. Yeah. And you've got all the shenanigans of here. Well you got your pyjamas, you got your glasses, you got I'll come and take Got your Polo, you got your six o'clock in the morning they wake me up time! You, you Just be patient! Be patient! You ? A mu and do as your told! he said he says, he says can we do it tonight? He looked at the clock Who said that? The doctor. He said would you like to get home, he said I'm sure you would?well no he said as far as he was concerned he could leave us Yeah. and then it'll be till Tuesday he's already got some even though they gotta be sent out to the firm Mm. whereas he's gotta he says just one round here so they could make decisions for you . Mm. And yes he says Oh Matt hasn't made his decision then? Oh no! I told mother he had! Oh well that's alright. She thought Oh God! Well you play along with that then right? Mm. Okay? The big the big . And when er when er when he finds out he'll then decide when he wants to see me again Right. as a as an outpatient. How will you get here? Will they expect you to drive down? Or will it be by Oh aye but to tell you some truth Oh! News about the car as well Listen, did you tell Anne ? Yeah. I was going to tell her you know half with mother and up, up there Today? No,to to tomorrow, tenth of August. Mm. Tell Paula to come in and get me here, get me here Mm. drive me to your place and she Mm. and you No you're not ready for that, you've sat in here for two weeks! Mind you, just the majority of Yes. Takes it out of you. I couldn't I say I couldn't eat. Oh you couldn't no it's no good. Na no couldn't of done that! News about the car! Aye, good! He had a phone call back from the garage Yeah. today second week in March. Aye. Oh he went, he went to tell him he's got his . You're saying I won't that's right. Did I tell you earlier what I thi what I think it is, is these quotas, these monthly quotas Yeah. Well what you do is Philip says oh yeah, here you go but he's, on Monday he's going to phone up the mobility people Yeah. yeah, but is that the D H S S? No. Well is it separate Mm. departments completely? And er, he's going to phone them up Monday and see what's happening. Well I think . It's He's being too When did he when did he choose the car? He didn't say. But when he did say yes I'll have that one and so on and that January. January? Early January or late January? Middle. Middle of January, that's what I'm sa that's two, six, eight weeks it's going to take! That's rotten innit! Eight weeks. Why? It's But is is that usual though, so they usually take a form up for this mobility thing? He can have that . Oh it don't look too bad, it's three out. These rooms they only have a certain Because there's I wish you'd shut up about you and your royalty! Say what? Royalty! If it was royalty Just because he might be royalty. If he was royalty he'd have it done in a day! Yeah. and do a good job! Royalty don't apply for ! I dunno, they just because that's ! Anyway er, so that's what's happening there. Said about a fortnight you might, you might have this new erm this new car. I believe it when I see it! That's right! What colour was it that he chose? Silver. Metallic silver is it? It's only metallic silver, grey. Have you seen it boy? Ah ah. No? Have you seen it? No but I know what colour, I've seen I've seen Nissan Micras in that colour. Is it a dark metallic silver? No, it's light metallic silver, it's whitey Oh it's not like that or something. it's not like that Paul's pointing to Like that? is it? No. No, no it's darker. Yeah. Anything like that there? Yeah, maybe . I can take the truth! Yeah. As you can see it's starting So she's flapping tonight packing everything up? Yep. Making a list of what's She won't sleep tonight. she's making a list of she's First thing she said was I'll have to get my Some milk! How many? Four pints of milk! I had to get four pints of milk, you know oh honestly But I wonder if she's going to write a list and do her shopping. We had Well noticed! I think have somebody had er half suggested it and then said oh no, that's a daft idea! She'd have taken it! She'd have followed the hunt and . Somebody had been shopping with her now. So it's Paul Paula's erm How much? back there. All she wants is a tease! What is she like in some er Some milk Bread. Bread and got some sausages bit of erm boiled ham which you can pick up on the way through Yeah. you can pick up that at the er . Well we had the ham we've had that tonight she's bought that. When? Has she? Yeah. When? The thing is, Paula said I can't see what she really wants to shop for because just before she came to us Paula took her up to Safeways Safeways in Carlton Colville and she said she did an enormous shop Yeah don't bother shopping took it all took it Have you have you seen na nan pay for it? Yeah, yeah. Have you seen them? The there's not room in it! I know, well she's gonna fill that up again. I'm going to I'm going to put the put another big sink out because that's And jus just, just for the shopping? Sorry? Just for the four pints of milk each Yeah. week? Yeah. Or each each weekend. Yeah. Each weekend? It's Well every other day! It's every other day, four pints? There's delivered from the milkman I swa Per day? a day Yeah. and then at least three, four pints so we've Per week? so we should see some milk shouldn't we? You're doing well then keep them your farmers happy! When we went to Sue's it's all drunk That's fourteen, twenty six Eh, I've been there I've been there and there and there's eight nine pints sitting around! There's that, and there's never anything really, only the only thing is the milk puddings see you get this pudding she makes . Yeah. She must have shares in Daisy! Yeah ! She's, she's pi she'd buy her own . No, the only the only, the only milk that gets turned out is when she makes drinks, milky drinks she puts too much in the pan be be because she make them! Yeah she put four pints in does she? No she puts enough for four in Yeah. it isn't, there's hardly enough Yeah, this is it. there's hardly enough for two in and then she has to do another two only, only she can't pour it in after it's . We we had a great thing tonight at tea didn't we? What did we What? have tonight, at tea? What was that? Oh oh , yeah. No on the table. Oh but . Oh but the what? Fin finished his meal. Everything! Everything! It's the novelty. Everything, he did yeah. And he pointed it out, this brother ooh look he's finished, he's eaten everything! And he'd left more on his plate and Aye that's right. Philip had all these bits so so Philip got all got all the bits and and eat them and Paul got all his bits so we had six clean plates!thing, not a thing thrown away. Right. How about that? Why did you have? Ah! Chicken, ham and leek pie With sweetcorn. sweetcorn, broccoli Nice potatoes,. they looked, they're this Scallop. scallop scallop, yeah with the skin on. Mm, fried big chips! Erm I think that was it. Oh yeah. We had four Oh no, it was in, in that, that roll! four or five scallops That mi that chicken roll. and a chicken roll perhaps she'd actually made these er bread pudding. Oh well, after it No we had rice pudding after it, Tony had his ri hates rice pudding, so had cold rice pudding! I had that, it was lovely that, Paul had it hot. Never had cold rice pudding. I didn't think he'd like that! Lovely! It's really refreshing! Oh it's disgusting! Beautiful! It's like ! Gorgeous! looks like it as well! Put some ketchup on, tomato ketchup, oh ho! Oh, ho, ho, ho, ho, ho, ho, ho, ho, ho, ho ! Stir it up, stir it up, oh oh ! Better than jam! Well it's one thing I mean it's right here haven't I? Oh , it's been different! If nothing else it's been different! Mm. Different start to the year. It's start of the year int it? Yeah. Only just! Ah dear! You look tired again. You look full of a I cold. I haven't slept all day. All day? No it's You're too excited! Yeah, I want to get out, it's yo you need to get out . Mm, gets into you. Didn't get any, much sleep last night. You didn't? No. I should of brought you a drop of the hard stuff then ah, and got you No, no. I think a bottle of . Ah just ask, just ask him for a drop of He had a doctor in this morning? He was sitting down then all of sudden he had this bottle of scotch and he told bring some whisky down . Oh God! He I think he's . He's forty five or sixty five? that's the last one, look, last one that's good. What about erm these little going away gift do you want them do you wanna get some choccies for them or Yes. Just get a box of these ones. Yeah! Well you Pa Paula thought you know, if you come back when you're erm what do you call it? Your outpatients visit Yeah. er it's when you're gonna bring it then? It's up to you. If you said tonight, you know, what you want to bring for them Yeah. or whether you want to leave it until as an out patient. See if we can get it tomorrow some time. Yeah. or the . This one? Yeah. Or maybe just ask the er the chap with the arm round her. Could do,. Right. Oh! I can smell food. I ain't spoke to John today, he's been asleep or else ignoring me! Oh he's been asleep, yes! Right. I told her . You have to take that off don't you? That'll come off with my milk. You take that back with you a souvenir! Get a hacksaw ! Off what? Off that. Ooh could do a bit swapping with some of those couldn't you? Yeah, it's all mixed up. I think they'll know me by now. So what else has happened? Erm nothing much. What's happened today? Paula went into school this afternoon well today. Yeah. I know, her mother's been She's Yeah. had a cha had a chat with Mary Who, who's had a chat with Mary? Mother. Oh her mother. Mary came back. And er had a good talk and erm She might, mother will know how much mother's business nobody know, I don't patronize, I don't think any . She just she just feels, she doesn't think! And that chap, you know the chap that's doing the doors in Paula's school? Oh yeah. He was in today they weren't Paula was just saying he was in there doing, doing the doors, whatever doing the doors meant you know whether he's actually putting them on or he's ba is he, is he just putting them straight into the existing Yes. framework? Ah well he'll he's not helped putting the doors in then. He was doing that . Got the budgie today. Whether sh , oh my God! I thought we we were bo we were go I thought we were gonna do better this year than last year cos we got more children but it's like wo working,. It's the time, the time . Tight as a duck's backside! Where money is. Yeah. You've got to talk about something intellectual for a change! Fifteen Let's talk about nearly quarter past. bang! Bang! Cos he'll be self-employed. Yeah. Course, that's the only way he can get I suppose the only the balance to that is to say And you have how many new firms wo who started in seventy nine and how many new firms have started in nineteen ninety? With all this with all his persons and the self same Well that's collared it. Yeah. It is as opposed to quality. What, new starts new starts Yeah yeah he's willing to start and er whether it's a firm or an individual. I mean I can see a typical lot of people at a time Mm. you know, I mean if if you were self-employed like that if you don't keep up the standard and Oh yes! you're on That's it! keep your standard Yeah. and you soon get in arrears you know! Yeah. I mean I used to have a good go at keeping up your standard in my but er Just making su have to keep it up. Yes. And you had to keep up with their er thinking tactics. Mm. And er I was pe I was paying I was still paying er five years after I'd finished! What for And I mean everybody? Pardon? For yourself or for all the others? Mm mm should of tried to you know, my collective one Bu for the last forty years. Yeah. and either pay it all in one I asked if I could pay it do so much, you know so much a year And they allowed did they? years, yeah. Well the income tax is fairly easy it's the VAT that you've got to watch they're Ah. the ones, the va VAT! Her Majesty's Customs and Excise and Yeah VAT people. Apparently they've got more power than most organizations or, you know Yeah? Yeah! The VAT. I always thought it was the income tax but no. No! The income tax The VAT and about they come and get it wherever they want. Yeah. And they can go through your books like that! Yeah. And walk in and expect to see them all in order. Mm. Right, any more there? And if you're not And if they and you if, if they get you on erm and they don't they don't bet it's a than they are . Sorry? But it's just VAT, it's a, just a tax return to them isn't it, VAT? Whether you've got accountants doing it or not. Do you like his curly hair father? I dunno. Innit smart? Yeah. He's real smart! Yeah it's nice. I'm glad someone does ! Very smart. Ha ! I'm gonna sleep tonight. You think you will do you? Yeah. Want us to go now? No, you're alright. Are you sure? If you wanna get You can tell us to go if you want. but you must do. Can you get a box tonight? Yeah, I'll find some I, I've got one at home I think somewhere I'll have a look. Yeah but not to not to cos you No no not a Glenfiddich? No, it's only wine that I want. Well I'll get a bottle of wine in as well. Okay? No, just a glass. You need a glass. No, well one for the nurses okay? And, and And wo a wo and one for the erm alcohol one. I mean we can wait but they won't mind which is which. Yeah I'll ask which one it is. And then I'll keep the other one. Course ! Did you finish your crossword after? No, I ju I just had a look at that I couldn't do anything. You haven't done any more! Oh you have, you have! It's difficult that is! You have. It's difficult. Twenty one across they'll make you livid something I N G S oh no, it's not I N G S it's Twenty two across try that cos we got half of that. Wat waterways, US . This gets in the way. I know. That happened Well why don't you get a top and trim? . It's just erm his trip happened a few days ago this was I caught it on a door handle managed and carried on walking! Sort of green sort ? It's gonna be more now! Yeah. Sort of green sort can't get that one. Right don't know if these are ready but fifteen across prints it phonetic no, it doesn't go. Anyway, you're best not to do it No. because er you'll have to get mother settled No, we'll be, oh God! But you're having Yeah. well I know you've been good. Yeah. I'll have my own bed tomorrow. Last night I slept on the floor. Poor lad having to sleep on the floor! Mm. You know, he's so uncomfortable he's up at the crack of the dawn because that floor is really getting into him! The crack of dawn, half past ten crack of dawn! Which floor are you sleeping on? The little sitting room but I can't stand that ! It creaks That and it's really rough! You're stupid you are! So I just sleep on the floor. You're stupid! Well I'm not, well I know I shouldn't. Good looking so refined! Then there's Paul! Got it! Got it, got it, got it! Alright young man? Hello there Hello. Alright? Fine thanks. Six down,good looking kip so refined ride a bicycle beginning with p? A what? Ride a bicycle beginning Pedal. with Pedal. Pedal. Well done Paul! What have you wrote. Cycler or cycle ! Pedal. Then, that's a D twenty three across lowest point N=nadir isn't it? Nadir,N A D I R . It's a madder. It is. Technical drawings ooh you should know that Sketch. one father! Technical drawings with ten letters, second one is an L? Ten Not plan? It's Ooh no! Te ten letters. Yeah. Sketch, no N. Te technical drawing? I can't think of that! Yeah, it says, technical drawings. Ooh no! Do you know? It won't come to me. But there is a word? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It'll come when you're not thinking of it. I can see it. I can see the cabinet you keep them in you don't say technical drawing cabinets you say Tech drawing. What that's ? Pull slow pull Da ee der Mm. That and that, yeah. Da Says something to her face ! Mm mm ! Oh! What's that, who wears? Protective wear ? Helmet! A Could be, but protective wear A helmet. It Yeah. just says protective wear. Try and get that one. Well that's a helmet! Try and get Co could be anything! Could be gloves! try and get twenty acro twenty across. Yeah, well this this is the name. Fluctuate . I thought that was veer but doesn't really make sense does it but you can fit it in there's now, what do you say? Twenty four across perform a surgery Ooh. now if helmet is right M is the first letter of perform surgery. I thought it'd be snicker-snack! That would be operate. Right it's operate helmet is wrong. Overa overall! The, no! Over or no, overalls Pro protective wear er what do you call it? Those Armour Gauntlet. Gauntlet Armour! no. Armour! A M O U R . A R M O U R , protective wear, armour. That's it! Ah! Mm mm. It's made a mess of everything! Most likely alter that one again! Er er urgh! Er ! letter Near enough. Stitched sewn Oh aye that's Mm. sixteen. Menaces ? Yeah. We're nearly there you know, we're nearly there! Menaces? Only a couple to get. Well where's well where's erm where's this testicle drawing? Testicle drawing ! Oh you, now you've got a few letters in there L that's an I think L A R and L. Ten . That's a R A N C E. That's if is that an L? It's an L? Yeah. Is it R A N C E, a R A N C E looks like a R A N C E, R A N C E . So that's why it's fun actually doing the clues as we are. What? A lot better than than on your own. What? Crosswords are. Seem easy but Well that's I N G S rings erm Are you sure? Yeah. It's plural you see. Ah yeah. Might help you with sixteen down now. Te tele-rings . Tele-rings . Clearings, no. Cle cla cli Mm. Mm,. Ah! Sixteen down Ah, he's stuck! Menaces menaces? Paul. Menaces Dennis's Dennis's the menaces! Annoying erm Onerous ? Ah thank you very much . Eat them up ca take the box. What, you're gonna start getting rid of everything are you? Yes. You don't have sweets like, just eat your supply. Don't wanna take them back with you? No I'll take them back tomorrow. Cravats. Type. Small particle ? Atom. Atom. Yes. Ah, wrong! A particle? Yes, yes, yeah alright. Er Do you want a er Mint. Oh yes, we'll have one of those a fruit pastille. Take a few with you. Pass them round, fruit pastilles. Years since I've had one of these. Have a mix. No mm no,. Doesn't cravat have an E at the end? No. Have you written to everybody you wanted to write to? No. Written one! Has it been posted? I'm lying here Ha! I haven't John he wants to talk with me. The answer's wrong. Is it over there? Put those in the Anything else? are you sure? You can take those with you Every single one? Ah no, but then last night to jump out the bed to find out. I can't, I can't see if . Especially at the toilet light. It's interesting! What? When you chu push the light on it goes darker. Well don't do that because it'll wear the Exactly! battery out! Yeah, but that light's not for the light . That's what it's for. It's like that it's in the dark so when you push that but there aren't many batteries left so What you gotta do is like that. That Eh? light push push that at night then Yep. But it's erm er the light just takes away the inner tube and the batteries Tony said he was a manager so he got that as a freebie so is that it? Where did you get that from? Out of the day room. Well take it back. Cheerio dear! Goodnight Brian Thanks. Goodnight Well I John! shan't see you again. Oh! Where you going? I'm going. Are you, going home? Oh bless your heart that's great! I'm going tonight. So just behave yourself when you get home! Yeah. Yeah, right. Well they can't do any they can't do anything for me I'm an I'm an awkward sod! Oh are you I, I gathered that! No I didn't mean that, I'm only joking ! , yeah. Bye bye, see you tomorrow. Bye! Bye! Right would you like a ? Yes please. Just one please? Just one? Yes please. Got a pair of socks? Got a pair of socks. Yes, I've got a pair of socks. Underwear? No. You've no underwear? I'm waiting for Terry come down Ah! Right. Tea please? Do you take sugar? Please, yeah no not too sweet. Just wondering how long it'll take you to read that paper Brian Eh? I was just wondering how long you're gonna take to read that paper. Oh! You sort of read a couple of bits then doze off and then ! Eh,yesterday. I know ! I'll read a bit . I tell you the learners . Int you Brian, you enjoy guessing it all? That's right, yeah. That's his story and he's sticking to it anyway! Yeah. I think I'll try one of those tonight malted mi milk. Yeah certainly any sugar? See if it'll make me . How many, one, two? One, no, one and a half I'll be awkward! One and half. Just cussed! He's awkward isn't he? I dunno really, I ain't saying nothing! I'm not saying nothing! One and a half sugar. One and a half yeah. That's only a half a one to start with! That'll do! hello. Hey? and buy something. Yes not to worry. Did you say you have to have So what's that for what tablets have you got to have? I don't know. No. No idea. Alright? Thanks a lot. That's a bit hot you know, okay? Oh Don't want you to burn yourself. No we want you we want you to . Seen what's on the cup on the mug? The other way up. Rear right. Oh yes! I went to the making sure they move us around one square. So there's nothing you want tomorrow other than your the bottles? That's not drawings is it, just drawing? No, it's a, an R in it, it's about drawings. Mm. No, it's an L like the letters. Well change that L. That's right. What's the L Nobody's gonna look at it anyway! Number sixteen is something like gleam rings or no ? Plead means a place rings R A N C E what about R A N C E at the end? No space. No spaces, no. Something R A N C E like tolerance see is a Mhm. What on earth's up? Pamphlet there's only two letters missing out of pamphlet, two out of out of five we've got three first one, the middle one, the last one. I reckon that's tart where is it? Which one? T A R T. T, what about that letter? A R Oh no, can't be that. We'll have to make a word Pamphlet. up there. Pamphlet. Make a word up erm T, oh no that's difficult without a T. Mm. The T's us usually followed by a vowel. Mm. T E T and that. T and taste taught You must capitulate the word so yeah, surrender's right. Where's it say ? Trying to capitulate . Well if I only wanted to know the crossword and every single one is What time do you want her in the morning? If you name a time just so as As soon as you can troops together. Okay. Now that doesn't mean eight Eight o'clock does it? No, any No. time after ten o'clock. Any time after ten. Yeah. Right did you hear that Paul? Sure. Any time after to ten. Oh. So she leaves about ten she'll be here some time after ten won't she? That'll mean that gives you plenty of time to get up and get moving And it won't take long the to move those wardrobes, only about twenty minutes. Oh it'll take us a couple of minutes! It won't take twenty minutes! How many wardrobes are there? Two. Two? Yeah. And I say if you get on your hands and knees Get behind them and push them. and just pull and push on the bottom Mm. Well what I was gonna do is just sort of Yeah. nudge them round. Yeah. Pardon? One person one end and one the other at the other end one in the middle and then Ar are they joined together? No. They're separate? Mm. Well that's a doddle that! No probs! Easy! Do you want the er re re-wiring ? And you're not bothered if we go in front of the light switch No. at all? You hear that? Mm and I'm pretty sure I'm pretty sure there's, that there's a electric light points behind. Sockets on the wall? Yeah. Yeah. And you want your bed head so it loo looks towards Philip's room? Yeah. So you can see the lighthouse? Well there's no difference top and bottom of that bed I don't think. Int there? Oh. You have it either way? Yeah, I think you can . But you will be able to watch the lighthouse. Is there any Yes, Is the is there anything else you want in there? No. You don't want Christmas decorations or anything? No. And television brought in? No. Television. you know portable television. I usually have with television. Could lo could loan you our portable couldn't we? Oh yes, if you could. We've not used it yet ! I thought you had. Well but I have. they have it was on one night. Yeah. You get up in the morning and it's erm what do you call it? It's a radio put the radio on. Should be able to set the telly shouldn't you? You'd be able to get those timer switches on the . Yeah. I'm not so addicted to a television as to need that, oh far from it. Aye yeah, not bad! Maybe you'll just want it What's that then? Pardon? What is it? Malted er Malted milk? Yeah the Horlicks. Ovaltine. Horlicks. I thought you were gonna be an Ovaltiney again! No. No, course not. Here in the morning te tell, tell Paula to bring a couple of a couple of carrier bags and that's all I'll need. Yeah. That's all she was gonna do, that's all she was Yeah, she was. gonna bring. That's, that's . Right. Haven't got a jacket have you? No. Mind you, the car will be warm. I couldn't . The car will be warm if she parks down in the door and he comes up Yeah. Right? She'll be so parked down there Right. I think she'll want to come up. Oh no, she'll wanna come up and say goodbye. So you want we want whisky Don't make a note of that. one No, you don't, just the one o one will do. No, no whisky, one No buy a erm It's like a hotel isn't it? What else for you was it? Two, two empty carrier bags. Any preferred sign or name size? Yes. Asda? An empty carrier, the Gateway and the er Gateway and Asda. and the er Asda one. Do you want left handed ones or right handed ones? Well it's It's a good job the nurses there can listen . She's nice she is. Whisky, wine I'm just gonna put you a new bag on cos that one's has leaked . Whisky, wine, carriers what else? Erm I dunno ! Is there anything else? No. You don't want any Socks? Ah, better bring in socks. Right. You've got your erm And I mean bedroom slippers? Got bedroom slippers so Do you wanna put shoes on? No! I got a pair of shoes here. You've got a pair of shoes here have you? No. No, you don't need them. When I came the ambulance you see. Ah yeah. So we get your you got your you got them you don't need underwear you got your shirt, you've got a pullover, you've got trousers I it's, it's my shirt trousers so that's it then! Yeah, they're my trousers. Oh I don't need that, I thought we were gonna have a long, a long list. Whisky, wine. Needn't something to do with lovely. Keep you warm. If nothing else it keeps me warm. It looks like you've got some bla some, some stuff here for you. What's that? All that stuff I brought bring that back with you. Bring what ah? Bring that back with you there. Shall we take it back now? How many bottles are there? No, won't take it now we'll take it tomorrow. You might be grateful of that. What have you, tins as well? One, two, three, four, five, six, seven Seven tins and three bottles six . Fetch another carrier bag. Shall we take them back now? No. Three, three carrier bags then. Oh, what am I doing! Three carriers, whisky and wine right, got it! You can ta take that back in this bag. Nah! No. Can I take it . Fill them up. What a thought! He had an accident in bed, yeah. Oh Because That's a more evil thought still! Yeah. Oh that's a . So there's nothing else is there? No. What a man! Done very well! It doesn't taste bad this. Try it? Na no thanks. I can't taste anything again today it's gone. Oh! Smells gone and ev can you smell it? Does it smell? Can you smell anything? Taste it. Oh that's erm malt. There's something there. No, I don't like Just taste it. that much! No thanks dad. I don't like that. No, I don't like that! I don't like that! I don't like that! Don't like hot milk? You don't like hot milk? No. That's that's how you . Must have been an Ovaltiney! An Ovaltiney! He, he mixed it with hot milk? Ha does you good! It's good for you! See at least once during the day you have a milky coffee and that's a pint of milk . Mm. And then cereals in the morning, that's another pint. You see. That's the two pints gone. Yeah. That's why the necessity for a full pint. That's why you end up with nine pints is it? Why don't you just get another two pints, why not have three Ah pints a day? because she about three pints, the pints a day the third pint cost you thirty five P and right, a four-pinter cost you a pound and two pence a pound and two pence, now work that out. Twenty seven P. Twenty seven and a half P. Mm. You save seven and a half P a pint. You save seven and a half P a pint ! That's not bad! Four pints you save thirty P, you see you've nearly the cost of your Yeah. Yeah, your third pint. Yeah but then that's taking You see yo in petrol by going to the shops That's right. and time Yeah. Er, you like the milkman the milkman I mean absolutely stupid I thought because he kept putting milk up it was thirty P when we went there first Mm, yeah and now it's thirty five. now it's thirty five or thirty six I mean they put it up for the er crisis Do you know di it didn't come down again it, it went up tuppence for the crisis. What crisis? There were a crisis! Which crisis? The oil crisis. We haven't had an oil crisis! We have! When the we Have we? when the Gulf war was on. There wasn't an oil crisis! Yeah there was. It's a heck of a it's, it's thirty four pence a gallon it was. It wasn't a crisis! in fact it costs The oil excuse! and they're laughing at Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, yeah, yeah! What they what they should do the, the milk I'd say your first pint cost you twenty six thirty six Yeah. all other pints will cost you thirty. Mm. Did you know that the people who sell the milk, the dairies that sell a bring it round to you did you know, not many people know this! Did you know Did you know it's about twenty P . No. That they are allowed to sell it to shops to shops cheaper than they are allowed to sell it to you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There's a minimum charge they can sell it to yo individual customers Yeah. but they can sell it to shops, a crate of it to shops cheaper than than they can sell it so that means And then the shops, the shop bu the shop sells it the same price as the No, no the shop could use it then as a as a loss leader he could make say, a penny on it an ge so if he buys it at, you're buying what, thirty five? I think they can buy it at twenty eight. Right. So if he sells it thirty, just, he won't even cover his overheads on that but it means instead of having it delivered you go down to Joe's shop get it for thirty P save yourself five P. Yeah. Now isn't that crazy? Yeah. Now, the regulations that control that, that decide that are absolutely barmy! Yeah. Because they're encouraging the people who are providing the business to go out of business. Yeah. Yeah! Aren't they? Yeah. Yeah. Then actual consequence of it Why not have three pints every other day? Because I object to paying that much for milk! Yeah. Even it, even if you Have four e i if every four if days. if the shop, milk shop was across the road to afford that delivery price No. Yeah. Er right? Because the . Mm. You should start your own milk round. So do you ever, do you have any delivered? Yeah, two pints a day. At thirty five P a pint? Mm. Well that's Because if there's any And you get your er price and you get your other milk from the supermarket Yes. when you go shopping? Yeah. You should get one a day then there's six pints of milk. Get two two a day and it leaves er four pounds ninety. But it's when you're built up to nine pints it makes you Why don't you get say, two four-pinters on a Monday or whenever you go shopping Will you shut up! And yo and then you get you get, keep your own because if there's any time she can't walk down to the bottom we've always She's got got a contact. Ah. She can put a little note in there and say she wants some a taties and some, some bread and then it's delivered. Oh he delivers those as well does he? Yeah. Ah? He delivers those as well? Yeah. So you're paying for a service really aren't you? Yeah. Mm. You're not just paying for milk. You're paying for the two things you're paying for the opportunity No! you're paying for the opportu by that chap coming round Yeah. and doing that you're paying for the opportunity of having erm other services Yeah. like bread Yeah. I think you may yoghurt like if you left a note for the postman he'd drop it through the door Oh it's like that is it? Yeah. Right. Fish and chips! Well , quite often than not er Don't Paul! there'd be post post will come in the afternoon Yeah. and you dive down to the post box and pushes it in. Mm leave him a little note. I think we'd better go Paul. Yeah. You're getting a bit restless. I think he ca I think he came tonight for a game of cards that's all he came No. for! Truth is known if the truth is Time for a game of pontoon? No. Pontoon? Yeah. Which is pontoon? Twenty ones. Ah alright,some time. That just . Twenty ones, unless you're playing for a pair of notes. Well we play, we play for millions of pounds! Once ah, and a he ended up owing me fifty seven ! You don't go pennies, you go sort of ten thousand pound or half a million on this one now! I'll buy one for half a million pounds! And then it's er And if the stakes look right, right how much do I owe you? Fourteen million! Right Ah I'll have the next card for fourteen million! It's a three. Oh surely not! Twenty eight million ! Oh, has it stopped yet? I don't know. Oh have you turned it off. No. It, it goes click and it's stopped. Right, do you want us to take anything No. tonight? What's that? The books? Yeah, which book? Has it stopped? No, right don't do that again! The books That bag. Liquorice Allsorts. They'll be gone . Mints. It's a pity nobody ever brought yo brought you grapes cos I like grapes. Do you like grapes? you're moaning now! Sherbet le these are the ones I got him! Yeah I got him them ones! Yeah. One Did he give you those? I was told to get you all stu tangy stuff. Yeah. Tangy drinks, tangy I was looking for these and you got drunk and eat them! Oh never mind! You can leave those there. Do you want those leaving? You want the books going Yeah, the books and the cards, the get well Yeah. what else? Well your glasses case you don't want them going do you? Er, yeah might as well then the glasses in there. Oh your glasses are in there, right. And the and the clock, won't you need a clock for tomorrow? You can jus just jump Oh you've got that one haven't you? out of bed and You can get up at six o'clock in the morning see what time it is can't you? I shall be up at six o'clock in the morning, they wake me up at six o'clock in the morning! They don't wake you up at six o'clock dad! Yeah they do! Six o'clock? Yeah! Yeah, they get up at six! Every everybody? Every morning at six o'clock! Good morning Mr ! Are you awake? You hope it isn't! No, go away! Do you want ! Then five minutes afterwards they come and put this in your mouth suck this Oh, what's that, thermometer? Thermometer. Yeah. And five minutes after that. no, I half an hour after this, an hour after that. Cup of tea. Cup of tea. Ooh, I'd want a cup of tea right as right away, ooh ooh! fast asleep again then. At six o'clock in the morning. The then, then er Oh then breakfast eh? out, out again Straight. straight to bed Yeah. make sure you and er So what time do they, do you have your breakfast then? Eight o'clock. Eight o'clock you get a bit of Give it a lick. Get off yo get it off your beard. That's it! So you get your breakfast when, eight o'clock? Yeah. That's not bad. And then you get a cup of tea at ten. Really they say cos eight o'clock, any time after eight o'clock and they start making the beds and make you comfortable but they've already had three goes at making . So you want this lot shifting now? Yep. Okay Paul ? And a Now. and one, two, three. Three carrier bags. Three carriers. No I do n't. Thre whisky, wine, three carriers we'll sort that out. Okay Paul? Are you ready? That can go in the er in the one. Yeah. Just that one? Right. Yeah it's recording. Er ooh ooh ooh ooh ooh!did say is he recording? Is he recording? Yeah. What the machine? Or whatever if the machine records . Oh! Really? Strange thing! Just one car is it there? Why is there no parking there? Ambulances being able to get in and out. Oh it's . Well that's a hopefully that's our last visit. Hopefully. Hopefully Ah! that's the last major thing that happens to him. It's a tight bend that! Just a bit! Isn't it? Mm mm mm mm . I wonder how many patients they get like him who are just lucky? Do you think he was lucky? I think he was very lucky! I don't think he was lucky! He was fortunate. He was fortunate in that he had the right doctor at the right time in the right so hospital But he didn't have the right expertise around him. Oh yeah! He hadn't had those how they Do you think if he'd been sent into hospital earlier he wouldn't have been in such a It would have depended on which hospital he'd have been sent to. Really? Erm if he'd have stayed at Southwold Hospital he would have died! They couldn't have coped with it, no! What they've done with him there is remarkable! The skill the level of skill Do you want to go to the wine merchants? No, I think I've got some at at home Paul. stopped, being stopped by the police find a bottle like whisky! Oh! If you haven't got a bottle of whisky at home or I'm sure your mum can get one on the way in way in tomorrow can't she? Yeah, we've definitely got a bottle of wine. Have you? Have you got a cold starting? No I haven't I just sneeze sneezed. Everything I do Er er . I don't know how you can be so tired when you only get up at half past ten in the morning! Pardon? I just look tired for some reason. .Mm mm mm mm mm mm mm . What do you want to do tomorrow? Do you want to come over to the bungalow and sort this bedroom out or I'd like to go to the hospital I'd rather go to the hospital. You want to go to the hospital? Yeah. Okay. Well we'll see what Tony wants to do. If you both wa if you both would rather go to the hospital you can't do that. Oh Flip a coin. One of you will have to come with me. Flip a coin and see who gets to go. Flick a coin? What if Tony doesn't wanna go anywhere? Pardon? What if Tony doesn't wanna go anywhere? You get Philip to help decide. has to have pick a cushion off, off the floor. Really? Yeah. And . No. Well it will be upstairs cos there's a pillow up no, no, hey listen he complained because he had to step over the pillow, that's it! And I says it's Will you blow your nose you're going to give yourself a real bad chest! A really bad chest! Aha, yeah I haven't got a hankie hankie. Well at your age you should have a hankie with you, you shouldn't have to be told! It should be there. But you don't have to be told to put your socks on do you? No. No. Well, we'll see what see what Tony says. Then if you both want to go to the hospital you can't somebody will have to be either graciously accept to go over and get the bedroom sorted Or? or ungraciously have to toss a coin! That's a Oh it's the red button on that recorder Yeah. but black the orange light's shining on the red button made it look black. Have a look at it. Don't press it but just have a look. Oh, this light here. Oh yeah! See it? Yeah. It's like if you, if you look at the on that Mm. and then you look at the normal lights Mm. they look really yellow, they look, don't look as yellow as these lights. Because the lights are Ultra violet er they're Ultra violet? Yeah, that's the colour of the light. And Whi a bluey white? No, it's the actual, the colour of the light is ultra violet and the colour of the those normal lights, I think they're red or something. But isn't ultra violet blue? A blue light? Erm, erm not . But the lights aren't blue. They've got a blue hue to them, a blue tinge to them but the lights aren't blue lights are they? Yeah. No they're violet. Does it still look like a runway to you then? No, not any more. I used to be down a straight road here. Pardon? I used to be down a straight road.. Everything that I do The other night when we came back the streets were deserted. What night you come back? The night of the F A cup replay. Was it? So people who'd either gone to the football or Watching it or listening to it on the or watching it on the radio or television. Was it on, I think it was on Sky or something It was Sky, it was on Sky. Sky T V so they were either watching it on their own or being very neighbourly with their neighbours or listening to it on the radio or as you say, up in Liverpool. Rather not go there! Pardon? I'd rather not go to Liverpool ! It is a pity though winning two one, being being up two one and then Were they ? Yeah! And then losing three two. That's a pity. Yeah. So who scored? If only, if only! I think Des Allan, Yeah but erm he was going out with erm Nathan's sister. Who? The Was he? Yeah. For how long? I don't know how long it was. Said they were going out it's just that that was ages ago though . Pardon? It was ages ago.. Pardon? I just remember. this nuisance right. Say that again! I remember about. Did you know that if a man Jumps off, I know. jumps off the top of Big Ben Yeah, I know. wearing a tweed jacket he he'll hit the ground in eight and a half seconds! Did you know that this one? Not many people know that! That if you jumped off Big Ben wearing a s sto sto sto sto sto sto a wearing a wearing a leather jacket Mm! your top speed would be two hundred and seventy two miles an hour! Not many people know that! That's right. Nah it's right innit! Ha! You know the fastest speed of one is two hundred and forty miles an hour something like that. It's thirty, it accelerates at thirty two feet per second Yeah. per second But it can only reach doesn't it? a certain speed but in fact Oh yes! as you Yeah. fall you slow down because you ca there's more, there's more air friction towards the ground. Yeah, so if as you're falling from a great height. Yeah. Okay if the theory is, if you dropped a feather and a penny at the same time from the same height the theory is that they both should reach the ground Equally, equal time. at the same time but the feather there's a lot more of but in fact they don't the surface area to . Yeah, so if to collect the air there's a on it tends to float down a bit. Just hold on to your seat belt I've got somebody right up our backside! Oh he's dropped back a bit. I thought we were going to have a visitor in the boot. He's right He's still there. right up behind us. Hit your fog light then. Well never mind. He's trying to get a bit closer. He just got a lot closer than that. Blimey A lot closer than that that's he's a Ford and at a guess is it Ford? Ford Escort or something. No it's not. , it was a Ford. It wasn't a Ford it was Japanese It is a Ford Granada. I, I read I read the, I saw the . It's a funny shaped Ford Granada that Paul! I thought we were going to have a visitor coming in through the back door. This door. Yeah he was close I don't know why. He was very close! Here we go! It's a nuisance that, isn't it that? And you don't actually know it's going off do you? It's only happened, you know when the windscreen went all the bubbles appeared Yeah. on in, in, in the laminates alright well when they took the windscreen out and replaced it with this one it's only since then that repair Really ? that this has started to creak and crackle. And one good crack with the back of your hand sorts it out for a couple of minutes. What's in the bottom ? Pardon? It's in the back there whatever it is that's bouncing around. Ah it's this tape. Pardon? It's this tape. Shove! Beep, boo! Faster and faster. Nice to be in the speed limit . Did you see Tomorrow's World? I saw bits of it, I was talking with your grandpa today about that. The bullet. Pardon? The bullet the fastest bullet. They they were experimenting to erm reproduce a space what it's like in space when erm debris since the space shuttle and then er Oh that's why I came up wasn't it? You know You know and they were they were erm firing this bullet at seven kilometres a second Yes. that's the speed and she's tearing into about erm five five strips of sheet metal . That's the bullet? Yeah i it's all done with hydrogen gas cylinder compressing the bullet. The most Those powerful gun in the world so it was shot by compression rather than explosion No , no no it's an explosion Yes. sent this little erm sort of tube sort of cylinder through er the hydrogen gas and then Explain it again you've lost me already. There was a it's gunpowder Yep. that shot this Why was there gunpowder? in the end, the gun was a the gun was about It was an actual gun? Yeah but it's it's not a An ord hand gun A rifle? No! A gu a gun about erm forty metres long. Forty metres! Yeah, it's a gun. So it was a gun that was only, you'd only find it in a building? It isn't an, an actual gun that you'd see Oh no! somewhere? No, it's the only one of its kind! So it's ju it's purely No it's experimental? Yeah. And they were er and the gunpowder when, when it was ignited this It exploded. yeah, it's the bullet moved away from it no, no, not the bullet! The, there was a erm send it down right, and that got sent down this They shot a cylinder away? Yeah. A solid cylinder? Yeah. And this, and this cylinder But a cylinder is empty! Yeah, oh it's you know I mean a er A ce it was cylindrical but it was solid? Yeah. Yeah. And it shot it went down shot it through this barrel and inside was hydrogen gas and as it went through But it, but as it went when it went through, through the gas, yeah? it erm the gas just pushed very hard So the cylinder fixed tightly inside the barrel like just as if No! it was Yeah. a bullet? Yeah. And then this hits a plate and on that plate Now what hits the plate? The gas or the bullet? The both at the same time I think Okay. the er What's the point in putting the hydrogen gas I'll explain that. Go on. Okay. And then on this plate there's a, there's an actual bullet no a and it, it, it looks like a bullet, I don't kno I don't know what it is and it's like that if you hit something Yep. if you hit something twice as big to what you're hitting it'll go twice as fast as it does with a snooker ball. But a snooker ball isn't twice as big, you know when a snooker ball hits something the other ball goes away quicker than the ball that's hit it yeah? It gains, it gains momentum. Yeah. So it, it ga it went twice as quick as that ball's going. Mhm. And then this went down the barrel and you know, hit whatever it wanted to hit and each shot cost a thousand pounds! In setting each one of them, to get it all ready cost a thousand pounds! But they they, that wasn't accurate because it has to go up, to have fifteen kilometres a second. And they've only got it to seven? Yeah. But they do that, they reckon it won't take long. Do they think they can get it up to fifteen? Yeah. And what's the purpose of it? To try erm make a material that withstand if it was hitting it. At fifteen kilometres a second? Yeah. Because of the danger of space things in space being hit by debris and the the debris is travelling at fifteen kilometres a second? Yeah. Yeah? erm a flake of paint hit a spaceship windscreen and it cracked it, just a flake of paint! A flake of paint? Yeah. No metal attached to it? No, just a flake of paint. Just a flake of paint. Is, is, yes it's, it's, that's doing it. So how much junk, garbage, rubbish I know whatever is up there. I know. Is it in one particular area or is it just scattered No it's anywhere. That's stupid isn't it? Oh it is. Why don't they collect it together then? Well it's just like the ends of space rockets you know. Mi you know the really old Russian ones,when they I remember when they shot the rockets up and then the bits of them just get left behind in space. This is crazy! It's waiting for an accident to happen! Yeah. Because if one of, not just a flake of paint if something bigger than that Yeah, and when a piece of a rocket or and when tho when that a bolt or a nut or something and when that hit whatever it hit it would really damage it wouldn't it? and when that hits whatever it hit that's gonna explode and that's gonna send . Oh my God! So, are the plans afoot to collect this rubbish? No, just tha I don't think they're gonna Are we go ar are we going to have dustbin men orbiting the world? Yeah ! Ha? Yeah. Waiting for a Christmas tip! That's a thought isn't it? Yeah. Maybe there's an industry in the fu er, for the future there Paul? Seriously! Refuse collection Have to have some . Orbital Cleaning Services! Refuse refuse collection of the world world out of this world, we're out of this world! We're Di did grandpa say he could drive back? Oh, said he could drive back, I don't think he might be able to but I do He I think it would erm that would set him back Paul that really would. Oh yeah! Don't play around I think with that! he's in high spirits isn't he? That he's coming out. Well it's good that! It's Yeah. it's important he's feeling he wants to do things. And what's this about a light switch? When the wardrobes are moved it could be that they will hide the wall light switch and he's not bothered about that one little bit! Because it doesn't, as he says he doesn't use the main light in the room he uses the bedside lights okay? Aha. And if he really needs Good! to put it on he can just put his hand behind it. Ha,dark. He just doesn't want it on! So i it doesn't come into it that! Okay? Aha. Right . It's such a small room that one. Pardon? It's such a small room. Small room? Mm. Yep. Out tomorrow! Hasn't he done well? He's been very lucky! That's right he . Pardon? He he's the only person out of that in that whole Ward Mm. the only patient that probably hasn't got cancer he's the only one. But the others that have got the cancers I think you'll find that what they're doing with them ar a lot of those cancers will be cured. Oh yeah! No, all they have to do once they've found one new cure for cancer Yes. the they'll have it for everything! Cos they're all generally the same cancer so Well, if you find a universal cure for something that's what it Yeah, I mean means! No, if they find one cure for it. If they find a cure for say, lung cancer they'll just have to chase just a tiny bit and they will do cancer. I don't know. Cos all cancer is your cells erm Ah but that's the simplistic I know. side of it, er all it is is that That's all it, yeah. It's what triggers it and what causes it to keep triggering and moving that and Mm. going out of control. What and if we can find out what it is that does that You go to people and say and then antidote and then find that sort of thing. and then find what it's what we can do to stop it triggering and carrying that reaction on and on and on and on or turning it back. If that makes that happen that way what makes it go the opposite way? You know, what makes it reduce? In safety, that is. Cos you might find you give somebody something erm which counteracts that Yeah. but then because it's going into the body it's also counteracting so many other things that you don't want it to counteract. What lu like chemotherapy? Yeah. Mm. Ah! Right, come on then. Can you bring in all those things out of the back? Aha . Please? The sweets, the books the lot, everything he's just given us. Go and shut that door. That's it. Don't leave anything behind. Have you got the lot? Yep. Three carriers, whisky and wine that was it. And wild, wild women! Close the door properly. Three carriers bottle of whisky bottle of wine. Bottle of whisky? Bottle of wine. Here's his sweets. And what do you want? They're his thankyous. ? He's getting ready. You saw didn't you? Leave them! He's given them to us that's why! Oh! No I'm not. Well he's no once I'm home. Whisky? Whisky, wine erm Why whisky? Well he, he asked the nurse and the nurse said obviously said we don't care for anything like, we do it for the good of you. And he said said yes Not for long! I know you do it for the good of us but I still like to to buy you something as a thank you. Well I'll get So she said well and he said whisky? And she said, oh no not that much, you know not, not that, no, no I want to, says well oh no, how about wine? We like wine. So he said yeah, alright wine and then he said and whisky. So, I'll see I'll see what I've got down here in here. Well I'll give you the money for it. No you won't! Yes I will! It's our thank you as well. Don't be daft! I'm not being daft it's a fact! It's our thank you as well. Oh. What was he like tonight? Erm he's cold Tired? yeah, he was a bit tired. Cold? No, his cold from this morning, he had a drippy nose remember? Oh yeah you said so. Yeah. Er, his eyes were a bit full, you know, you know when somebody's Yeah. sickening for a cold erm What did the nurse say about that ? God, they're not worried about that! They've got all his tablets sorted for him for coming home. You know, what he'll have Are they ? dosage, frequency so on. And he has to contact the doctor? Erm he didn't say that that'll all be no doubt he'll have all sorts of notes and that er When is he able to come out? Any, any time after ten o'clock he said. Ooh. Any time after ten. Better get up early then. No, he said don't break your necks he said any time after ten. I said, about eleven? Yeah whatever time. He said but whatever you do don't come before ten. Well Okay? Aha! Is Paula upstairs? Yeah? Any time after ten. Okay? Erm three carrier bags That's what he wants? Yep. He hasn't packed anything tonight? Well I didn't bring he didn't sleep last night he said. Why not? I don't know! Just didn't sleep last night. And three carrier bags bottle of whisky bottle of wine. For the They're the gifts they're the thankyous. Okay? For the thingy? Oh he said, he said he just, he's just gonna leave them. I think the wine will definitely go to the nurses and the whisky will go to whoever wants to have a drink of whisky. So it'll be never know, you might get some happy doctors! Erm what else? Did he suggest that or did you ask him? He asked the nurse. She said wine, he, she suggested whisky and oh no not that much then, oh no you're worth more than that, you know the usual thing to But did you suggest it to him did he want to bring, take anything in or Yeah. oh yeah. Erm his, his cold looks as though it's settling in his eyes Mm. you know it's what else? Erm we didn't play cards he was a bit he was okay but he was obviously he's finding it hard at times. How do you mean hard ? Staying with it you know, he's tired. Mm. Don't look, there's no need to look like that! He was just I'm just a bit. he was tired, he's got this cold coming on but he said you can be in here so long but after a while you feel as though you've got to come out, you need to get out! You know he, and he's at that point now Mm. where he needs to get out. Which is fair enough. Angela rang me. What Alright, yeah? Has er Tony phoned? Cos he said he'd phone back. No. Angela rang er anything happening. Yeah. I said well things are happening I said but quite honestly Yeah. and er she said she was she said had we talked to Dick and Joan or not? Yeah. I said, Angela we just haven't had the time. Have you explained? What What? why? I said er that we would do it this weekend. Oh! Right. So we've got tomorrow, but she said till Tuesday Yeah okay right. and then I said I'd give her a ring. Yeah. I rang up er Gareth Yes. He wants he'll send us a er a rough erm sponsorship form cos I said we could do it on the computer you know, the Oh that's what I didn't bring back from school! Computer for Tony. And he said I'll have to. Mm. And also he said could he have a news sheet Mm. cos he says they're going round all the schools Mm. and er I said ooh well I said we need furniture because we're adopting the school and and Mm. you know and I said that so I put that on, he said and what you actually want them to collect Mhm. and he said we're aiming for five thousand. Pounds? Yeah. And all the schools that they go into Yes. they're going to er Which schools are the is it the high schools they're getting into in the Midlands? yeah. What about the pri they won't be do going into the primaries will they? You was sat there ! Erm now, so he said erm that's what they're aiming for this thing that they want them to do on May the eighteenth plus a sponsorship walk on the sixth of June Yeah. plus all the schools that they're going to between and what do we want them to collect so they can do all and that. Is this a realistic target he's setting at five thousand? Oh well he seems to. I said could we do anything? He thinks they'll be able to I said could we do anything? Yeah. So re I explained about father and he said you know, we must get together. Mhm. Er Tony won't be able to come tomorrow he's got to do his homework. Right. You're joking? Yeah, said he was going to do his homework. I think that's a So he's not gonna welcome grandpa There might be too much going on tomorrow, I think it's getting There just might be too many people there. Yeah. Yeah. Getting Well we've got to we've gotta go there sort this bedroom out. I'd like to go and see him, I'd like, ah I know, say goodbye. To who? Everyone. Doesn't matter. Oh, just like to say goodbye! Doesn't matter Paul, they say i i I'd like to. in a place like that Paul people are coming and going all the time. Yes, just like to say goodbye. Anybody in particular there? Well let's hope we don't have to go back! Er no. See if we got that bottle of whisky got a bottle of Bells. Unopened? Yeah. Yeah? Erm yeah he's okay, he was he's in good spirits. He's looking to getting out of the hospit looking forward to a, a change What's that of of scenery and so on. I was thinking you know he's go I don't know how long he's gonna be cooped up in that bedroom Mm. you know, how long Mm. and getting up and that would it be worthwhile buying him I suggested that. Buying him one? Not ge you know just Suggested that I erm To whom? he don't want one. To whom? To both of them. When? Er the other night after we'd got that one mm. What was their reaction? Mm. No. Really? Yeah. your mum doesn't she? Yeah. That's a simple one she said. Just get her one of them . That's what I was thinking. But did he say anything? No. No. The only thing is he's gonna find being a lot of tensions there. Yeah. Once the erm initial ecstasy of being home has is over. Er Why? I don't know how long that'll take for it to be over, whether five minutes or fi . or ten hours. Pardon? . From them you know ma that she's got over the ecstasy of, yes he's coming home? She's not looking forward to it? . No? Right. and now he'll have to change his ways and he'll have to take her shopping . She's been saying that? And what and surely you didn't just say nothing to that? Didn't you tell her that was a bit unfair? I can't can I ? You can tell her, I'm afraid that's what you need to do! Mhm. No, no, no, the longer you the longer you let something like that ride . Ah well no that's staying longer and she's going to come here to tell well you know the reality! Yep. there . Yeah but what I'm saying is when she says things like that I think you've got to be clear and honest with her. The thing is they won't be going shopping, they won't be doing anything for a long time and she's And it, it isn't a personal thing on his part it's no not going shopping or driving her here there and everywhere because he he, he, he er er he doesn't want to it's just that he's incap he will be incapable of doing it. Sh surely she understands that? She does, and then it just fades into the background she will have to go if she needs to get bread and milk and things tomorrow I'll have to take her . Come on let's ring up Aunty Felicity. Why? Well, in New Zealand. Call New Zealand. We we, we, we'll waffle. waffle. Waffle. Potato, you can make out of potatoes Right dad. And I can is it like a crisp? Or is it thicker? Ah oh no! No. You know like mashed potato? Yeah. You know, you know when you're on I'm I'm ringing Aunty Felicity make those toasties? I'm ringing er Yeah. You know the toasties? New Zealand. If you make them you can make a waffle with mashed potato So it's fried potato. instead of bread gril yeah, grilled it, fry it type of potato. Right, it's fried potato. Grilled, fried have waffles They are erm I wo I wouldn't call it he Paul. I wouldn't call it healthy eating. No. You know, it's alright but if you just eat waffles, it's like just eating chips! yeah. Yeah. Sooner or later you're gonna say that's not healthy eating. I phoned up er, what do call her, Ann? Okay? Yeah. You phoned And up Ann? Paula? Paula? Paula? Paul, shush! You phoned up Ann, Paula? Phoned up Ann, yeah she in Joan? so I left a message. Joan? I rang Joan yesterday. Rang her up today. No, you can give her a ring later. There's no rush for that one now. Is this, is this New Zealand. New Zealand. Yes it Whe where's the number? O One one O . Shush shush! eight, four Is that one? One Gooday sport! What's the name of the family? Eh what time is it though? Ah, well you Ma! won't it takes ages Ma! to get through! I just got a long continuance tone. Press it out. What there what time is it in New Zealand? Twelve hours Gooday cobber! What time is it now? Twenty five to ten, it's twenty five to ten there but in the morning. Oh. So Felicity's just got up. Oh it's morning? She's just up. Is it ringing? No. Let me try it. They'll be a way of doing your blocks. Yeah. Course it's morning there isn't it? O one O just gets you out of the country. New Zealand. Is New Zealand six, four? Hello cobber! Have you got, have you got some ? No, you got some ?. O one O one O! O one O Yeah got that. Is it nineteen next? Where's your nineteen in there? In that list? Have you got a nineteen? Well it's Auckland , oh maybe that's a comma? Sorry, you have dialled incorrectly! It's telling me O one O there's a in there is Auckland, which is there. Auckland, yeah. So it's not ? No. That's why. O one O You know the you know what this is? nine nine then it'll be the area code won't it? . Scrub out that one. Say good news, that should be over the phone . It's ringing! There we are round the other side of the world! Chin up! Hello Pat, it's Paula is Felicity around? You can tell her it's good news, don't worry her! Is it clear? I said it, I said it's good news and she rushed off, he comes out tomorrow if er I said, I said I shouted as your friend ran off,I shouted tell her it's good news ! Er ee he comes out tomorrow, he's had two biopsies to doubly check and From different parts of the and lump. the different parts of the lump and today he was told that the second biopsy was clear it's not malignant As was the first. and it is a case of it's, it's problems from the radiation treatment It's a reaction to it. it's a reaction and it's caused that er, but it's not malignant he's literally turned the corner oh, Monday, Tuesday Similar to his . Monday, Tuesday, he started getting better and, and he's steadily got better and better and better, he's very, very tired, he's not well he's very tired but er it's oh yes, yeah! It's not malignant and he's coming home, so we've got to pick him up tomorrow morning and he's smashing! No er, we didn't Sh think he would but he's done it! She can celebrate in whisky! Right so you can celebrate he said With whisky! have a whisky! Yeah. I is it ten o'clock in the morning? Twenty five to. Ask her if she's enjoying it? What's the weather like? What's the Twenty to eleven. What's the weather like? Oh my word! An and what, and what's it really? It's so nice? It is here. Yeah. . Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But while we're talking here we'll be letting Felicity Yeah. be late won't it? Mm. Slightly it's got to be. It can't be instant. Oh lovely! Oh well, oh well done! It's the other side of the world! I it th this is easier to get than Romania! , it's the ideal thing! Oh I'm glad you're enjoying it. Anyway, it's very, very good news, he's turned the corner I've hit him over the head with the newspaper! Yeah. Yeah, yeah. In between yeah, here's Alice, he sh here she is she'll come and talk to you across the world be go be going be going back tomorrow I, she she's hobbling through! Hobbling through. The old woman! Yeah er, no since he's been in, he th is, here she is . Talk to Australia now gran. New Zealand. Are you having a good time? New Zealand, yeah. Shut up Shut up ! Is it? Have you got yourself an ice cream parlour? Not yet! Line them up! Line them up! Line them up! Here si sit down! Oh he keeps looking at me. Here's Arthur . Oh! Here's Arthur! Hello, here's Arthur. Hello there! How are you? Right across the world, fine! Yeah. Comfortable. Yeah. Yeah, and New Zealand is smashing! Yeah, he's a, he's an old fraud isn't he? Really? Yeah, he's an old fraud! Nothing more than ol bloody, old bugger! Can I have a No, ah so that's right I've sworn into, I've sworn into the Pacific how about that! Did you have a good flight? Did you have a good flight? Comfortable Yeah. Great lovely! Right then. Well yeah, well Okay then? Yeah, I'll see you, go back to bed! Right. Enjoy yourself. Oh no,! Oh I know you have a I've I know I a I know I haven't got you up. At the moment? What time is it with you? Erm it's ju twenty to ten. Twenty to Twenty to ten at night? Yep. You're ready for bed? No I We've lived that day! No, oh you've had it ! Hey, must of ee ee,wha what's it like? Is oh you would love it! Oh alright, in that case I'll stay up! Oh but i we never pay the bills! Right, I'll see you Fliss, I'll see you love! Okay, right thanks bye! Bye! Yeah, will do, thanks, bye! Right bye! Bye! Bye! It's a clear line isn't it? God innit clear? Int it clear! All tho All the way by satellite! somebody in New Zealand! I swore in the Pacific! How about that! Ooh! That's by satellite that is! I thought I was talking somebody in Brilliant. You when the when they say it's better in than er phoning up down the road Yeah. It's right. Mm. it's right. Good old B T! I'm gonna Oh that smells good! This is for them tomorrow for dinner. Does she know? You can say that! Have you told ha you? Yeah. Oh is that that steak I got the other night? It's clear on Is it all in there? Pardon? All the steak in there? Mm, they'll Swap enjoy that! tomorrow? No! Grandma's having this tomorrow. You'll enjoy this grandma won't you? What? This steak and onions? Have you smelt it? It's for you tomorrow! Oh! I said, I think we should leave it home and have it tomorrow. I think you should as well. Paula leave it at home! Aye, leave it at home Paula! Aye. Yeah I like that! He likes that! Yeah. Yo your mother won't like that! Shh! No, leave it at home. Will you will your grandma like that? No you'll hate it won't you?you'll throw it in the bin and grandma can throw it away ! I think we'll have a celebration tonight, now Yeah. Can't! Oh I can! Ah we can! Ah oh, what shall we have? Let's have a Excellent! look erm Er erm, eeny meeny miney mo! Brurgh, that one. No, not that one. Shut your eyes and point. Hold on, there's a nice whisky somewhere! Paula, they haven't ! How about a vodka? Cor! I know where there's a whisky! It's up in the sideboard . Has it been opened cos we're going to need one for the That's it. Lou's got my other bottle of whisky. Can you put that away for me love? Let it cool down first. No, the oven's Oh, let it cool down first. And you always turn this off, this whisky Paul! My feet are killing me! Oh, your feet are killing you! Well you shouldn't have ironed! No I shouldn't of got no sympathy for you at all! None at all! You got a Glenfiddich. A Glenfiddich. I'll have that Jim Beam that'll do. The Glenfiddich's been opened as well. That's open. It never has? It has. Oh I'll have to take that tomorrow. Do you want a Glenfiddich now? No, I'll have the Jim Beam thanks. It's foul stuff, it gets in your mouth! Haven't you ever noticed that? What ? Whisky gets right in your mouth! Oh how original! Ho! Ho! Ho! Ho! Ho! Can I have a little bit? No. Just at the bottom of the bottle? No. That's a wonderful you know, when you think of it it is wonderful! What whisky? What you on about? No, being able to talk to somebody. Oh! I thought you were on about your husband coming out of hospital! Whe whe whe whe whe when did father, grandpa said Was there a pause? and they're pouring it in there say well how much do you want? The go he goes Bu bu wha wha wha wo wo whe whe whe whe oh when! You stammer and they go and pour it! Mm, you won't like this Paul! It isn't a nice one actually. Can't I have a tiny bit? No! Just a drop. No you're too young! Half a tumbler? No, you're too young! Can I have a You can ask as much as you like and the answer will be no! Mum, can I have a You know when you're fortunate we're giving them Can I have Do you know you were fortunate when you're given wine! That's about a . Excuse me! No, it's not fortunate, not wine! When you give them wine. No! I I'm sorry! I, I, I can't get in! Sorry! We we didn't reali eh are your shoes filthy Paul? No. No. Take them off! Look at the carpet! It's just been moved backwards and forwards! It's just the Oh is it the pile? It's the pile of it, yeah. Is that how it goes? It's that long. It's a how it goes. a deep pile. It's like that. Over here will do the same. It's not, I don't think Can I Can I have Advocaat then dad? Yes. Yeah, you can have one. Ooh an Advocaat's enough! What do you want then mother? What would you like? Would you like some of that brandy? Medicinal? Cor you Mhm. Do you want some medicinal? I'll get you some medicinal. Are you,are we allowing for this or Oh, you're always allowed medicinal. You be careful! Medicinal. Not with the egg shell in it, no! Do you want straight brandy ? Or Kirschberry Kirschberry You want the Kirschberry one? It's nice that Kirschberry one! It's nice, yeah. I'll have a drop of that actually. A wee drop! A drop of Kirsch. Aye! I'll be like Geor Geo George's mother one year and his mo and his mother was in her seventies he came in says to daddy ho gosh ! So John says well take a bit with some gin so George took it And she drank it and drank it! so E'er. so she sa she It'll do you good! Put hairs on your chest! She never, she never drank alcohol at all Oh yeah! so Ha! George I've met these people before! you know Oh no! she was marvellous Yeah. Yeah, yeah Only on doctor's orders George thought Don't sa and you know, George it you see so she said that brandy was very nice I think I'll have another glass Got a bit of a kick to it! but er so he said so he poured her another one and she said I want another glass George so he said and by time she'd drunk about six glasses She'd be flat on her back! she was i she was shouting Yeah. so he said they put her to bed and he said it was best Christmas they ever ! Nice quiet Christmas ! That's quite good ! So that was George's Get your own mother legless and That's it. put her in the bedroom and then enjoy the rest of Christmas! He said then he, we could carry on with the serious stuff ! And what was that? The whisky? Well it's Don't drink it too quick! I'm not I'm just taking a sip And he said another glass George that was real good! Well that time that I got cayleyed I didn't realise I When did you get You want to cayleyed Well when We're recording now Yeah she's very exhausting, ain't she? She's an old lady though Oh Arthur it's not that It is, yes, that's making it worse she's an old lady Could you have her to live with you? No she'd drive me up the wall I know I've said that and you said oh no I could cope with your mum and I thought I could, I thought I could I really thought I could but oh God I'd be okay if I could You'll never have any life you know could go deaf, if I could go selectively deaf, then I'll be alright You'll never have any life of your own would you? Well that's fair enough I never said she, she, I mean, I think, I blame myself as well I think I was on edge, but everything, everything she questions, you know, like she can't be nice, says no you're not having anything oh she says No I think that's just showing interest, that's the questioning that's just showing interest But then she'll ask you three times again, three times Yeah, that's, that's when it's hard she asks you the same thing again and again and a few minutes later, then half an hour later, then, then you think have you listened I've told you that, I mean today she was asking, she, she was standing there while I loaded the dishwasher she says I've got to learn how to do it haven't I? I thought oh go away What learn how to and that's how you do it She hasn't got one No but She's not going to get one really, really she with her she had to learn Oh I see, yeah, ah, go, she's just, she's just got to have something to do Yeah, but anything she does takes her such a long time, I mean like the ironing like Well yeah but she is seven seventy isn't she has it always taken her or has it? Yes It's always taken twice, three times the length of time as anybody else? but then she'll go upstairs and come down but then she'll go upstairs and come down Bit of exercise keeping herself fit I wonder if Philip was or wasn't Pardon? I wonder if Philip was or wasn't You wonder if Philip was what? purely that he was really just Oh I think it was psychological that if it was he's in a bad way int he? Erm, well what your mum and dad said to me is that he gets very worried, het up, really tensed about doing things, that's going, you know, things that are gonna happen, like just driving down to a different place, er and he get's himse himself so het up , so worried, he makes himself ill, I think that's what's happened And as soon as he got home the pressure was off The pressure was off and he was fine and he was he was his normal self and that's what happens each time Yeah cos if it was as bad as he said it was, I mean he would only stand up for one or two hours at a time, whereas he'd been up since nine, he was still sitting up at one o'clock when I arrived there Yeah, he made a miraculous recovery today and I think that seems to point or to confirm what your, what your mum and dad was saying Well that sort of problem will only get worse Yeah I'm afraid so, I think it's compounded by the fact that your, what your dad says sums it up beautifully about your mum, I was talking to him about, you know, what does she, what she's got in her life other than what she ever had other than a home, working and so on, has she got any hobbies at home or does she do anything is there anything that takes her mind off things Yeah, but she still has Philip and he says no she hasn't, she, her hobby is Philip but as soon as Philip can't do what she wants him to do I E run to the door Then she turns on him then she turns on him then she turns on him, yes I mean I hate the way she stands behind somebody mouths and Mimics mimics them and that, oh I hate that, I hate that as I say a few times I thought to myself I do not like You are my mother Yeah the Germans are out are they? Must get better a few people are walking about very, very how many miles have we done? What's the tachometer? Seven four three We've done seventeen thousand We've got seventeen thousand Seventeen hundred forty three miles this month Since when? This month, we did one thousand in January, one thousand and four in January I, er, shows you, that's in this month? In this month, mind you we've used this one most Today she was saying, hadn't Tony decided which school he was going to and then she started which school should he go to, will you have to pay? Well won't it take him a lot longer than going to Cramley? And, and I thought we had this conversation two weeks ago With her Yes about when he was deciding Mm well why and why not, oh shut up I don't Do you know when we came back from last year when Jimmy and Anna Yeah yeah and we went round, you know we went round the with them Yeah went to Coventry Mm yeah, when we came back, did we see your mum and dad and Philip when we came back from that? Yes Did we talk about where we'd been and what we'd done, what we'd seen and what had happened? In Romania? No here Yeah Yeah Why? Well today we were behind a G registration Jag and I turned to Paul and I said oh maybe that's one of the Jaguars we saw being built in Coventry and I said no, no, no, corrected myself, I said couldn't of been G reg because it would have to of been H reg wouldn't it? And then she said oh, have you seen Jaguars being made? I thought yeah, last year, don't you remember? No, why did you go to Cadburys? And then it was oh we didn't, you know, you had a free sample at Cadburys, oh, I said we got a free sample from Jaguar, we got some walnut veneer which is, I suppose, half Cadburys no, oh I said well do do don't you remember we went to Massey Fergusons as well did you arrange it yourself? Oh God I thought ya, ya, ya, ya, ya She's partly dementia She could be, actually she could be going Yeah started to go Senile She could be Yeah but if she is she's She's a bit young for that though No, but if she is, she's, she's been going that way a long time. Oh we're horrible No I think the mother-in-law jokes are right she's a cracker hope it isn't too busy in here Oh well pop over one night after school just one night this week and that's it, just pop over and You'll end up shopping then No I won't It will you'll end up going shopping she had her chance today Well do, do you want me to put a five pound bet on that? Eh? Will you bet me? I reckon Philip will be capable don't you? No, yes, but I think you'll end up going shopping just to get out the house Yeah maybe father'll say take her out, take her out Take her out, take her out yeah get rid of her Okay, let's see if we can find a parking spot, here, it'll do nicely, or there or there, no there's not one there No there isn't one in there, there's one up here Do that one, bit worried about that computer in the back you know Yes, I think I'd of taken it back There we are There we are Right, let's away, I think we're just I wanted to get a cardigan for school the other day and cos I want to come out of thick woollies now it is March Yeah Have a look in here and see if they've got any Pardon? I want a cardigan for school Yeah you just said have they got a sale on? Nothing there Mm no what you looking for, what type? Just a plain cardigan man's Plain colour a couple of man's, I've got a black and white man Light to mid weight Yeah, but erm It looks as though you're gonna be a bit unlucky, wait a minute, oh no, no I'm a wanderer, do, do, do, do no that's your lot Paula I wonder if they've got any more of those decent knives, those Kitchen Devils We've got two, erm, we don't need any more How much are these now? Well what It isn't a case of wanting them they're such good knives you don't get them at that price, too often right can we just have a look at the price of microwaves, while we're here pardon? If you want one prefer one with conventional oven Oh sure, no she doesn't need one, she won't be able to use it ninety four pounds That's all she wants, here you are Ah it's got a cheap, cheap interior, no it's too But that's an oven as well Sanyo, it's even buy British Have you found anything? A Wrangler T-shirt for Paul T-shirts, what for Paul? I wonder if he'll have one of those? Blue he wants, doesn't he? Medium Well if he doesn't like it Tony'll wear it get one of, Paula get one of those, one of these made in Sri Lanka I'm only getting one Oh get, get this, too, doesn't matter, oh Tony'll wear it Tony won't wear it with Wrangler on the front He will I will if he doesn't They're the wrong size for you Medium bring it back, I wouldn't get a white one Why not? Because he, Paul gets them filthy There are, one of these large Medium I'll have one as well for that price reduced to clear, what's that? Have you got any more of your compact discs? No the, they're the cheap ones, what you looking for? Them oh this handy box, oh yes are they the same price as before? They were cheaper before weren't they? I thought they were, but could be wrong, how many do you want? A couple of just one? Two just right for boxes though Mm He'd wear his Where what was? all starts now Oh the your shopping starts here What do we need? Binliners you're okay for erm, what you call it? Clingfilm Yeah might as but no, use that erm bottle stuff we've got, we dilute, it's supposed to be good stuff, you're suppose to get the same quality out of it as, out of that and it's cheaper we okay for glasses? Yeah, I bought some the other day Yeah, I know you did, but, we okay Mm have you seen this? An old, it looks like an old style take it on to the Antiques Road Show Should of bought the gas bottle Have you got one that's running out? I thought you said it was no, I said it was running out, have you one that's run out then? Pardon I thought that was the second one So erm, if we run out, we run out Which whisky did you get? Bells What, bottle of Bells, ah, oh you go Two, two bottles of wine Did you get it from here? No from that From where? you know those shops near Oh near the hospital, yeah, and you got parked in there? If you go behind the bank Why wants some Here we are, what do you need? What shampoo? Wash and Go Tissues, box of tissues Don't lean on it make you go to sleep no I'm not leaning, you rotten devil It looks like a bomb has hit it here I don't think we need anything else out of here do we? No No Oh white pardon? White they can see it, but there's two different types we'll try that one though how much is this? Two and five God that brings back memories let's seal it, now you want some goats cheese with that, that's what you'll need, lying on the beach at midnight going to sleep in your sleeping bag, with a bottle of that and your goats cheese We're going away in October by the way Are we? Where we going to? We're going to go down to the travel agents Famous last words and we're gonna he'll be back in hospital and we're gonna say, where's the cheapest place you can go Here are Paula, it's better stuff I don't think they're all that keen on that one It's good for you and we're gonna say where's the cheapest place you can go? They'll say home And we're having a week We'll have a week at home then, cheapest place you can go, I tell you where you can go that's really good, your mum's, have a week with your mother nervous wreck by the sea But we are Do we need washing powder? No What about erm, oven top cleaner? Got it, yeah oh because with a bit of luck Tony wants to know ah I think he might find he will be Are we alright for, yeah Yes we're alright, er salt, are we okay for salt? I don't know I haven't bought any recently Are you pleased that he's chosen er Northgate? Which one were you hoping to choose? Facilities Northgate, I thought the people at Stowmarket at Stow Utland were on the par with the others, you know you can get, you can easily be convinced that the place is good because of it Well this is it because of the look of it, when in fact that's only part of it it depends whether he's gonna be motivated there, they mo it's not gonna need much motivation but if people are interested in you for what you are like, like they have been, yeah, and he's experienced all, he's been somebody special there hasn't he? Yeah Yeah, and if he becomes just an auto run it could just knock him back a bit, one of the crowd, you know, just another one Do you think that's likely to happen? Er, I hope I don't think I don't think it will, but I'm sure it wouldn't do at the other two places Ah, so which one were you hoping he'd gone for? I was hop I hadn't, I hadn't really made up my mind that's plenty biscuits Paula, yeah it's plent don't get, biscuit mania, Easter eggs, God Oh, do you want a Cadbury's Creme Egg? No I don't when is Easter, it's late isn't it? It's ages, ages April, it's another six weeks yet isn't it? Yeah What you looking for? Anything special? What do you want? Pardon? What do you want? Oh let's have a Crunchie you Nothing oh dear erm No Northgate no I think it's the speciality is that, in him and how he reacts with people, it isn't you know just what he's good at or not good at You don't think he'll be er Don't think he'll what? you know got enough to go to university, things like that to of been top dog all your school life, it might do you good not to be Yeah, but it depends what, how it takes, what form it takes if he's if it's sort of their others are of similar ability, okay, but if it's because, if people don't take any notice of him because of Oh yeah, mm, mm no just because of they're that type, they don't take any notice of anybody Yeah, yeah but you think that, that'll happen at Northgate? you know, don't take an interest in them as people Think that could happen at Northgate? I think that could happen anywhere, but but It does have implications mind you for Paul, cos where's Paul gonna go? No it doesn't, he, he doesn't have to follow his brother's footsteps No he's got to be his own person he's got to be himself, for, yeah selfish it's been easier for us for transport problem, if Paul decides to go somewhere else I think you've got to give 'em them freedom to do it, freedom of choice Oh where Nathan goes Really, so Paul is in, hasn't got freedom then? He's been with him since primary school, it'll be nice to go to, cos they're going off to America when they've finished Is that right? Is that what Paul said? Paul's gonna bum around for a year I reckon Good, it'll do him good I think, I think he needs to do it No I just think he needs to do it Oh he might never settle down He, he just might grow up a little bit cotton wool, Tony oh yes, which ones I don't know which ones they like There's, there's one of these beef and tomato I think, I seem to recognize that Yeah it might as you say with Paul but I'd be more worried about Paul bombing around every year than Tony I'd be more worried about Tony, cos I don't think Tony's as well wise as Paul is, in some ways really for both of them it wouldn't do them any harm you know because look, they're, they're, they're not typical lads in many ways which I they're not typical lads in many ways are they? I'd rather they'd university than before you know I rather did it before because if you do it after that's when the job situation becomes a bit of problem, look at John, look what's happening there You can't blame John, he didn't want a job, he can't turn round now and say he's got the wrong degree, he didn't want a job Don't know, I've never spoken to him at all, don't know He didn't want a job that's what he had said he wanted to have time out he didn't want a job he could get a job when he wanted to, he can't now turn round and blame it on The degree the degree Oh God do you want some toast then? No I'm gonna get some healthy bread any blackcurrant pies? I've not got them down love Why is it that you have everything but, there you are, there you are they're cheap too aren't they? Yeah Shall I get two lots? yes, yeah have you much bread in the freezer Paula? Tony wanted to know what Paula have you much bread in the freezer? waffles, what are these? Doughnut waffles It's the way they're made, no that's we'll, that is heart attack time, that is That's not waffle love that, that's not no, erm Paula you can get them in the frozen food section love Yeah I know you can I've seen them down there have a big bone through that, have they, looks as if that's been boned There's your bone Oh there's your bone, what about that one leg, boneless, four fifty nine I'll just have pies Actually a lot of the convenience stuff's been eaten and the Fair enough they needed eating Yeah Oh most of it's gone Pardon, most of it's gone who's been eating it? Well I know somebody's left it behind, do you want it? That's right Yeah you're welcome that's it de, de, umbrella Pancake day Don't forget I ate a lot of them, but they've gone off, they'd really had These are seventy nine Which? These look, well, these look a better bunch, get one of those, I'll get one of these One of these? Yeah well get one of those, I'll get, one of these, they look pretty good , mm lovely bunch of grapes those, oh yes, oh yes what are these plums? They're a bit hard aren't they? They are really they're well do you want some that are a bit hard? No Do you want any salad? pardon? Paula What? do you want any salad? Young gifted and black, do, do, do are we okay for potatoes? Yeah we're alright Ah, do you want any swede? Swede? Not swede, parsnips sorry, miles away there, parsnips do you want any? Pardon? No Anything else? Carrots Any umbrellas to buy today umbrellas, singing do a do, do, a is that it? Yes, apples They look nice these Cox's The skin on them, they don't eat them beautiful apples though Paula right what frozen stuff do we want? It's a bit really have they got the, the other pies that we have, this is it how about one with ham in it? Yeah Haven't got it have they? Is that okay? They're the potato waffles Yeah that she was talking about Go on, let him try one Which is cheaper? The four or the fourteen? The four Well I don't know they may not be, won't pay five pounds eight, fours, twelve maybe cheaper by about thirty P a box if you do it that way. What we having for tea? Tonight? Yeah Have that ham Oh the you know what's gonna happen Every time I don't yeah we buy ham We're okay for ice cream Yeah What about veg, frozen veg? Yeah Yes we're okay or yes we want some? No we're okay Is there anything else or is that it? We ain't got one in the fridge What's that? in the freezer Blackcurrant torte, blackcurrant torte, have we ever had one before? No Do you want an apple bar? They're nice that, with a bit of cream, that'll do Paula Paula come on now this one's free That'll keep us going biscuits, I go to the end Here I'll take them I'll do the tins is that it Paula? I'll do these bottles as well then oops That's a hundred and six pounds, eighty one Ooh I just said is that all we've got? You don't get much It soon goes a hundred and six pounds, God Ten Air Miles, we'll get to Paris one day There's two of us One of us, we won't get that How far is Paris? From Gatwick? I dunno maybe three hundred miles Three hundred miles? How many have you got so far? Dunno Thank you You're in the way Paula A lot of money for what we've got Just check that, make sure you've got no doubles going through no Anything? We got, we got quite a lot of meat Yeah, even so a hundred and six pounds is a lot of money, when did you last come shopping? Our three pound, fifty Yeah how much did those two boxes cost? Haven't got that far yet two ninety nine each Three pounds each, six pounds Fifteen pound on T-shirts Ah, yeah, yeah, so, you take that off, you take the six off for those boxes that's a hundred, take fifteen off for the t-shirts, you're talking eighty five pounds then. You know, you know you carry forward, you know say I've got, I've got about now, about six thousand carry forward as me trigger money Mm, mm can I put that in next year's budget? Yeah, because it's money for you to spend I don't want to put it in me deposit you see, I want to put it in my next year's commitment Whatever money's left over that's not been committed by you, if they find that they've got fifteen hundred say, that's not been committed by you at the end of the financial year, that will automatically go into deposit Well I want to commit, I reckon the, the change over I'm having in is gonna cost me about four thousand And were you getting that four thousand from last year's, this year's money? This year's, no this year's trigger money This year's trigger this year's trigger money Ah so I just want to carry that over Yeah earmarked for alterations to Pauline's guttering Yeah and then I'll only have to carry forward of about three thousand, plus me twelve thousand deposit So they'll have fifteen thousand on deposit Mm Ooh I reckon I'll be using some of that, I'm, I'm gonna use I've got less than you But, hold on and now, I've got more expensive staff than you. Yeah, but, er, I've got six thousand carried forward from last year, okay you've got twelve they've got six Pass it over yeah, see what I mean, and this year, the budget Which? I've got this year it's all accounted for, I can't take anything out of it Well I think I'm in a position and, and put it to and put it into a deposit, you know this, this building I want, at the back, there's, there's nothing there, pardon? Oh I should of shown you me car you would of been impressed Well, yeah, there's plenty of time, I don't think sort of, it's not a magic one is it? Is it gonna fly? Oh, there's one corner of it sticking up Oh no that wants er, just put it on the seats Well just, I put it under here as well bring them back if it's sticking up Oh I am gonna do hold on, let's put this box in first, let's get this out, right You don't want heavy things do ya? No No these are heavy that's light the rest I'll have to these are heavy there are, all that lot'll have to go onto the seats, mind your fingers can you go down there, open that door no you'll have to come this side, I'll have to pass them through to you okay on the floor Paula might be bet the heavier stuff, then if it does fall off it's not going to make a mess This one? see that's gonna, see what I mean, as we go along that'll fall on the floor that, you'll have it all over the place, put it away okay, get some petrol now on the way last year, weren't it? Yes, that's because of the floor area And your numbers of, and, what you, how many kids have you got? At the moment? January number Sixty seven Yeah you see I've only got fifty two and I've got eight hundred quid less than you Crazy innit? Yeah, but I've still got three but the implication, the big your biggest charge on the school is the staff Yeah that's why it's crazy you see it, oh, it doesn't make sense that so much emphasis is put on floor area if er less emphasis is put on floor area and more on children three, top of the scale you see Er, yeah, but there's a heck of an I'm gonna be really pushed because it, the biggest cost us teachers and the number of teachers you need is governed by the number of Children children you have Except the twenty five, fifty two in two classes I'm not, I'm not saying that you should have any is not good I, I don't think you should have any less money, I'm saying that we should have more, we are, we're losing out Yeah you're not gaining it's No it's us that are losing out we're better than you there should be more emphasis on, on number of children that was lucky, it's on this side isn't it? My side Your side the erm cap, petrol cap are we paying by Access? Mm Oh I thought that was your, that was one of the teachers at the course there The trigger on that gun went at fifteen pounds, er just about sixteen, I've got the card here okay Have you got mine? no I've got my own Oh I, I've just put mine thank you it's cooling down a bit now, it's been a gorgeous day though, that sun Mother thinks it was you five o'clock she see driving along, yes it's light now Thank you When do the clocks go, alter? March thank you thanks a lot, thanks Oh I know what you can have, you can have waffles and that can't ya? Can have what? Those waffles and With the ham, yeah Mm, please Tony he wanted to try them know what they're he can try them now Yeah that's what we'll have for tea waffles and ham and can have a bottle of wine,I'm still on my antibiotics When do you come off your antibiotics? Tomorrow Tomorrow, you finish them tomorrow, completely? Bet you're pleased with that? Can I have a Yeah pot of tea? How do you feel now, how's that? Oh it's still tight Really, are you gonna carry on taking the those red bombers How many am I down to? that he's given you? What am I down to, eight Tuesday, eight, seven Seven six, five, four left then Oh you've had today's? Yeah So it's three tomorrow you know we've got away with this winter Oh another, I can't remember such a good winter Yeah we had, er that cold snap before Christmas and was it November? Yeah, but we haven't And we've had one or two cold snaps, little cold snaps Yes, but we haven't had any frost, ice hadn't real we've had the frost of we have Yeah, but there's been, I think there's been one warning when we haven't had the bad weather, we haven't had the fogs that it was icy going to school we haven't had the fogs that other people have had They've had it worse in other parts of the country we've done very well for escaping it, the only trouble is we haven't got the rain and now, this, this coming summer I dread to think what's gonna happen, look how dry those fields are, just look at it if we get a wind up, if we, a wind starts to blow it'll move a lot of this, it will just lift it up into the air, we'll get clouds of soil blowing all over the place. We won't, we won't have snow drifts we'll have soil, soil drifts, as daft as that, God where is all this traffic coming from? Oh, yo, yo, yo, yo if he pulls up he's, he's a goner, ah, pull off there, the bus got off, has he? Yeah Now right up his backside Father was very quiet though you know. Was it because he was tired? Oh washed out he very quickly got tired, you remember in hospital, he quickly got tired and if he laid down he quickly seemed to get his energy back, he'd come back and be You think it is the beginning of the erm God I hope not but it is a reaction obviously er to the radiation treatment but But it's the amount of tiredness that is cu you know he's showing and, and his speed into tiredness and then his recovery from it, that's unusual that he could be He's on tablets that are, er what's it, what were they called? Erm Well he's on six lots isn't he? Yeah, well one lot of tablets were, was, they weren't for relaxing tablets but they were called er What? I can't remember What, designed to do what then? Relax To relax him Mm, relax and that will be to slow him down though Ah, yeah, maybe He's on relaxants Looks as though Ipswich have won Hmm all the scarfs are flying not necessarily Well they usually don't fly when, when they've got beaten, let's see what's on there we are That's division three division three this West Brom nil One week, what he wants to do is to change it round Nil Nil seven away, scored seven away four, three he said down here didn't he that lad? Yes So what's, when you say he's when you say he's got erm, he's going to Saint Paul's as a pupil? Choir school, he voice He must have a good voice then Yeah he he's blossomed since you've been there she, she wanted him to, the psychologist saw him cos he was Oh do you think Anna would of, I hope she's doing something like this I hope she's doing something Pardon? I hope she's doing something If she's er if she's sorted a village out, that'll be great Mm say, sort out erm a school We said a village with a school in it With a school, yeah we could be asking too much you know Mm with that I don't think so You don't think so? No, she'll thrive on it, well if she can't do it then we can't do it That's right No and I don't think you'll get away doing it any other way, mm, not with all the new, if these new restrictions are coming in, I must Yeah ring up tomorrow What about the Hungarians, you know that thing about the I'm going to ring up tomorrow Who you going to ring Romanian Relief? Southampton, Southampton Is it only office hours? Mm Does er we need to know things like that and if you I still question whether we'll go Why? if there are problems If these are the problems Mm or not Oh have you got that on? Mm, doesn't matter If there are the problems of taxes and taxes? Mm That's why I don't, well if the Hungarians are gonna charge is it two thousand pounds or something? Mm If they go and charge that we we can't afford that Well no you get it back supposedly Yeah, but if you get it back in funds well that's no use to you is it? Who's gonna take two thousand pounds worth of pounds out of Hungary? Who? I don't know yet Nobody in their right mind, do you remember that, were you there when that guy from Kuwait Mm, mm tried to change Mm his foreign and done it, done it all legally at the hotel and so on Yeah and the state he was in and they didn't want to know did they? They more or less called him a fool when he tried to change back into whatever it was our current whatever it was and if that's the case erm Hungar Hungarians are holding on to this two thousand pound, it's surety isn't it? Mm You'd be stoned dead and it's if they're taxing on the border well, well that's what it is but if you can get into Romania Into Romania as well you're being double blowed I can't see that honestly I just, I just I can can't see them I can seeing it as an import so they're taxing imports Mm, yeah I think I wouldn't of thought they'd be so thick skinned as to turn away help, that so much help, I just can't see it They've had, not just from Britain they've had help, they've had it from all over Europe and it's still Yeah, but it's still going in, the media's involved in it as well, I would of thought people like Anneke Rice would of picked that up Are you going to try her again Yeah, I'm trying to get this ready for tomorrow, I'm just Well it's, it's gonna be very late there, you'll be getting her out of bed if you're not careful I know she says it doesn't mind, she, she doesn't mind it doesn't matter, but oh dear, there's a piece here in the newspaper did you see that? Yeah Mrs have you heard of her? I read it Have you heard of her? No No I don't, she's obviously been before or been involved with it before What time does Tony want picking up? About twenty past the same route Same as Paul Mm Right mm wonder which way this paper's going to go, on the election, there's a piece here about title that that's no way to treat a lady no, I think it's all to do with, yeah it looks like An Access card had been found at a meeting of the Liberal Democrats for Eastern Region contracts, and, M S Sue Sutton, who was a candidate for South West Hampstead they've found, and the paper says the grey haired woman who to collect the card but did Ms Sutton gracefully rise from her seat to hand it to her, no, she tossed it over the rim of the platform onto the floor below leaving the poor woman to scrabble around for several minutes looking for it and the, and the punch line is a little later an embarrassed Ms Sutton is contesting Cambridgeshire South West for the Lib Dems at the general election, apologised for her cavalier behaviour, let us hope she learnt from the experience yeah Mm now what on earth has that got to do with a policy of a political party, the way somebody handles a lost Access card I wonder, mm? No way or the Open University Yeah but the Open University ones cover all of the material and they're what I actually wrote the lectures from erm but there's six of them which is why the o the only advantage of the other one is that it's one not six and so but I mean the material is all covered text of which there are three copies of most of them in the library one on short loan and one on sort of a general loan so you Yeah. What's the other one like? The Tha that's quite good for, for the biological stuff, it doesn't really contain much sort of useful for the last three or four lectures, it doesn't contain much on sort of ocean circulation and the physics, you know but it covers the biology interactions quite well. And also it's quite useful for the Right then we, we'll leave some of the physics and stuff that we've been doing behind now and just spend one lecture looking at some chemistry which I know will be equally popular. Oh good. Most of the ninety two naturally occurring elements, that's leaving aside the, the elements that have been created artificially in particle accelerators and things, have been found in sea water and it's quite likely that those that haven't yet been recorded from sea water will be recorded as our analeti er as our analytical techniques get better. So basically you can consider sea water as being a solution containing salts of all of the naturally occurring elements. Can you just copy that down. Would I, would I do that to you? Mhm You will probably be relieved to hear that you're not expected to memorize that table and to regurgitate it in the exam. What you should be aware of though is which elements are the most common in sea water and you'll not be too surprised to learn that sodium and chlorine, as in sodium chloride, as in common salt are in fact the two most elements in sea water followed by magnesium, sulphur and calcium. Now there is inherently a problem in carrying out any chemical analysis of sea water and that is the fact that sea water contains lots of lumpy bits. These particles, this particular matter is generally given the sort of generic term seston some of those particles are mineral particles some of them are colloidal aggregates as the iron tends, iron, iron, ions tend to come together to form colloids in solution and some of them are particles of biological origin. So there are a whole range of different origins to these particles but they're all floating around in the sea water. So if you come to try and analyze sea water you first of all have to separate the er aqueous base and those things in solution from this particular material. For no real reason other than tradition samples are normally passed through a forty five mu sieve or membrane filter. Is that seston or sestron Seston T O N So sea water analysis then is carried out on the water which passes through the forty five mu filter. Typically in the open ocean situation sea water contains thirty fives parts per thousand of salt, usually expressed as that symbol, sometimes you'll see it written as parts per thousand P P T and what that means is that there are thirty five grams of salt per kilogram of water and that's usually given the symbol S and is referred to as the salinity. We can divide the components of sea water into three erm categories firstly those things which we can consider to be major constituents these are substances which are present are concentrations greater than one part per million. So if you look down your table you've got your concentrations here in parts per million and you can see that everything above fluorine would be a major constituent and everything below it would be a minor constituent. Major constituents account for ninety nine point nine percent of the material dissolved. Minor or the trace constituents then are present in concentrations less than one part per million they obviously count for less than point one percent of the total salts They are useful as chemical tracers of particular waters. If we know a water has a particular site of, of origin then we can often use minor trace constituents as a marker of that water to follow its fate and its path through the ocean, okay? So minor constituents are often useful as chemical tracers. Our third category then is substances which are, are nutrients, and this is nutrients in the widest sense. These cut across the major and minor boundaries in that some of them are in concentrations greater and some lesser one part per million. These are substances which have biological significance. The principal ones are nitrogen, which is present as nitrate, nitrite and various oxides of nitrogen phosphorous which is present as phosphate silica present as silicate which requires silica? And carbon present as carbonate which is used in skeletal material or as carbonate or C O two or H C O three minus which are all used as substrates for photosynthesis. Because these are biologically active compounds, they don't follow the simple chemical processes of the other elements in the water, their concentration at any given time or place is a function of the biological activity and history of the water. So for example in a region of high productivity you may find very low concentrations of carbonate because it's been stripped out and converted to skeletal material being used in photosynthesis. Substances whose concentrations are not affected by biological activity you'll often see described as bio-unlimited compounds so you might come across that in your reading. Right? So that's substances whose abundance is not influenced by biological activity, okay? So that's the opposite if you like of those nutrients. In addition to salts, ocean water contains dissolved gases. All of the gases present in the atmosphere are also present in surface waters. That occurs simply by physical processes, primarily gas being trapped as bubbles under the action of breaking waves. Carbon dioxide is the most soluble of the gases because as it dissolves it doesn't just go through a physical solution it goes through a chemical conversion such that carbon dioxide dissolving in water forms carbonic acid which, in water will dissociate into a hydrogen iron and a hydrogen bicarbonate iron which can further dissociate this is why I've got a nice wide blackboard and you've only got a piece of A four paper so you end up with a carbonate iron two hydrogen ions This system is a dynamic equilibrium. If you put more C O two into the system the concentrations of all of these go up, if you take carbonate out, for example for conversion to skelet skeletal material, it will pull material in this direction through the, through the s through those equations. The actual point of the equilibrium, where the balance occurs on each of these, is a product of temperature and pressure. Topically this system is extremely important. If you measure the atmospheric rise in carbon dioxide due to fossil fuel burning, you'll see that it's only about one half of that predicted if all of the coal and oil that had been burnt since the industrial revolution had gone into the atmosphere, we would probably have er an increase in C O two double what we can actually measure. The rest has entered this system and has been absorbed by the oceans. Okay? So we know that so far about fifty percent of our anthropogenic C O two has been locked away in this system in the ocean. And at the moment there is considerable er research effort being directed to try and work out just how much more carbon dioxide the ocean will continue to absorb. What does anthropogenic mean? From human sources. For example can we continue burning fossil fuel and will half of it continue to be absorbed by the ocean or is the ocean reaching saturation such that these equilibrium terms are being reached and future increases in C O two will be reflected in atmospheric build up, and it's only atmospheric C O two that contributes to the greenhouse effect. So the exact er nature of this balance and how waters between contact with the atmosphere are being mixed into the deep sea, cos remember this equilibrium can only be occurring in surface waters cos only they are in contact with the gas phase how that turnover of deep water's occurring affects just how much capacity we've got for absorbing C O two in the oceans and therefore mitigating the greenhouse effect. How can we work that out? What's that? How can you work that out? Well that's what they're trying to do at the moment by measuring rates of turnover of deep to surface waters Mhm which is actually poorly understood, we'll talk a bit more about that in the next lecture. Okay? But you can see if this lot gets converted to carbonate and then that water then gets mixed down to the deep water, it will be replaced at the surface with water which has a low carbonate concentration which will suck more C O two out of the atmosphere. So it's quite critical as to how that rate is turning It's then oxygen surface waters are saturated, in fact they're often super-saturated with oxygen. In part this is the result of photosynthesis which is pumping oxygen into solution but again primarily it's down to the physical saturation due to breaking waves and air bubbles being mixed in to the system. Below the photic zone oxygen is consumed by biological activity so immediat from immediately below the photic zone you tend to see a decrease in oxygen with depth reaching a minima somewhere between five hundred and a thousand metres depth Re reaching a what? Reaching a minimum. Below about a thousand metres oxygen concentrations are fairly static down to the a minimum between five hundred and a thousand metres depth so they're fairly static. That's in the open ocean in enclosed basins, for example the Black Sea, many fjords and sea lochs, the deep waters are not renewed by water masses moving in from other areas in the way that they are in the open ocean and there anoxia can occur in the deep waters, that is the oxygen can be completely removed by biological activity particularly in degradation processes of organic matter, bacterial respiration so anoxic conditions can occur in isolated deep basins but low oxygen concentrations are actually very rare in the open ocean. Why is that? Why is it erm well yeah er le less of a level of oxygen at erm medium depth Yeah? now surely it's far more difficult to get oxygen down deep? Yeah. It's because that's the sort of trace you get with an oxygen minimum around eight hundred metres. The photic zone is, this is percent saturation of oxygen fully saturated and what we're seeing here is oxygen being utilized by respiration. In general biological activity decr decreases with, with increase in depth so you see er respiration using up this material. But when you start getting down here you've got low biological activity Yeah but sh sh but you've also got water masses which are being moved in which are rich in oxygen. The reason they're rich in oxygen is because they were formed at the polar regions, alright? Where, because the water is very cold, it will absorb an awful lot of oxygen. We'll look, we'll actually look at the processes of deep water formation tomorrow, so you'll actually see how the waters are formed, but the reason why this is high is basically the act of A, low biological activity removing it and B, the fact that the source waters have not come from below, they've come in horizontally from an area where they were formed which was very rich in oxygen. Now if you start analyzing the composition of sea salt, or the salt in, in sea water, what you find is that there is a remarkable constancy in the ratio of one element to the other. No matter where you go in the world ocean you find that although the total salinity may vary, the actual ratio of say silicon no that's , let's say potassium to aluminium is the same er so there is a constancy of composition there is a constant ratio between the elements. That constancy of composition relationship breaks down in enclosed seas and bays for example where er addition processes, I E er salts which have been eroded from river water, may alter the composition. So may, you may have a bay for example that's in an area where all the rivers draining into it are rich in copper because they're running over rocks which are copper. So in enclosed areas like that this breaks down but in the open ocean system you've got this very strong constant ratio. Other areas where it may break down are areas of high biological activity for example tropical reef flats very high biological activity there, very high demand for calcium carbonate to build all those coral skeletons, so carbonate will be stripped out. And waters passing through the earth's crust at hydrothermal vents etcetera will also have undergone chemical changes so again pool waters being emitted will vary in their composition. So how do we actually go about measuring this thing called salinity? Well if the definition of salinity is the amount of salt dissolved in a particular volume of water, perhaps the logical way to do it is simply to take a volume of water and evaporate it and weigh the amount of salt that's left so that might be the simplest approach. There are however problems with that approach of how much do you dry the salts, for example. Depending the amount of drying concerned actually alters the composition of some salts. For example magnesium chloride holds water within its crystal lattice and if you dry it that water comes out, but as it comes out it also strips out the chlorine as hydrogen chloride gas for example. So that would be one salt whose actual nature and therefore weight and therefore your measurement of salinity will vary depending on the degree of drying. Carbonates will combust at relatively low temperatures so if you dry your water in an oven you may find you're actually burning off some of the carbonates. So that would be another source of error. Well our constancy of composition gives us a way round some of these problems. If we can establish through very careful analysis what the ratio are between certain elements and each other then that ratio also holds between any given element and total salinity, yes? Yes. Yes. So by measuring just one substance we can work out the overall total salinity. The substance that's most frequently measured is actual the chl is actually the chlorine content and the salinity is one point eight zero six five five times the chlorine concentration. Chlorine is relatively easy to measure I'm sure you'll all of done it at A level chemistry titration, silver nitrate? Yeah? To establish the concentration of chlorine in a solution. And that was the technique that was really used up until the sixties for the determination of salinity. Whole research cruises where water samples were being taken at many depths, every sample that came back was titrated on board ship to get the silver nitrate to establish the chlorinity and hence the salinity. These days we can do it much easier and we do it electrically, so we can use a relationship between conductivity which has to be er compensated for temperature and pressure at which you're doing your readings, and that gives us a measure of our chlorinity and then that gives us a measure back to our salinity. And modern salinometers will automatically compensate for the temperature and pressure and do this conversion so you can get a direct read out from an electrical instrument of the salinity. But one must still be wary the fact that although we've got this nice electric gadget, that we drop the probe into a bucket of water and it gives us er a salinity it is still entirely dependent on this ratio and this ratio is based on the constancy of composition which is very good for open ocean waters but breaks down in coastal waters where erosional processes, where fresh water additions and the sediment loads of the rivers may actually alter this ratio, okay? So although we've got a device we must use it with care when working in coastal waters. Another way of measuring salinity is optically. This is an this is er another this is a good one for use in the field, it can be quite accurate it's, it's certainly a very easy one to use in the field cos all you need is a thing that looks a bit like a telescope about four inches long and what tha the principle it's working on here is the fact that ref the refracted index of water changes as you dissolve salts in it. So what it really is is a fr refractometer okay? It's measuring a refractive index of the solution but, and giving you a read out in terms of salinity, okay. So a useful field technique. Do you have to sieve it first? Sorry? Presumably you sieve it first? Well again all of these things should be done on water that's been passed through a filter to separate the water from the sestron yeah. However again, in the field that's frequently not and you do literally drop your probe in a bucket. As the actress said to the bishop. Exactly, I was just thinking the same thing. Well that's the sort of composition which immediately begs the question where do these salts come from and where do they go to? So sources and sinks of salts. What do you think the most obvious source is? Yeah. Weathering of rocks by rain water, by frost, by chemical action which is then leaked into rivers and carried from rivers into However some salts are very abundant in river water but are very rare in crustal rocks. In particular chlorine the most dominant element in sea water it's quite common in river water but is extremely rare in the rocks that form the earth's crust. So the simple weathering model will not explain our distribution of chlorine. Chlorine is an example of an element that is being recycled continually. The chlorine we detect in the rivers has actually come from the ocean. The chlorine is picked up as aerosols droplets containing salt for example from breaking waves taken up by the atmosphere, carried over the land, rained down again, gets into the rivers and ends up back in the sea. So chlorine is continually going through this cycle. Ocean to aerosol into the atmosphere, carried over, deposited as rain, leaks back through the river system into the sea. Looking in ballpark figures, river water is about three hundred times more dilute than sea water. How do you in the first place? I'll come to that in a second. Ah right. Sea water though contains proportionately less hydrogen carbonate silicate and calcium than river water. So river water is greater than sea water, proportionately, for those elements. Okay? Which implies that these must be precipitated in some way out of the marine environment. They're obviously being continually carried in from the river water but are being taken out of the system somewhere in the marine environment. Looking at that list would anybody like to suggest what sort of processes those substances are all involved in? Biolo biological. skeletal. Yeah, biological. Diatoms calcium hydrogen carbonate skeletal material these things are probably ending up predominantly as deep sea sediments pelagic sediments, yeah, remember? Diatomic oozes regularian oozes and so on? So that's a sink for some material. Let's come back to our chlorine then and think about well if it's not being weathered out of the rocks, what's its ultimate source? And the simple answer is it would appear that it's volcanic in origin. Volcanoes emit very large concentr very large amounts of hydrochloric acid as a gas H C L gas and earlier in the earth's history volcanic activity was much, much more widespread than it is now and during this period vast amounts of H C L were emitted. This is highly soluble, so it is immediately washed from the atmosphere by rain into solution. And since then this chlorine has been continually recycled through the hydrosphere. Sorry One of the other tables you've got shows you a comparison between the elements which are present in crustal rock and in the sea and from that you can see which ones are a good reflection, I E whi which elements have been transferred to the sea by direct weathering, and which of them are undergoing other processes, either other sources or other sinks. So for example you can see chlorine the percentage of chlorine in solution expressed as a, a per centimetre solution is something like twenty four thousand but its percentage in crustal rock is nought point nought one three so there's this big excess of chlorine to explain. Now arguments such as that in terms of composition of the sea relative to the composition of crustal rock imply a steady state system or over a long term and if over the long term the rate of addition of material to the sea is equalled by the rate of removal. If there's a continual turnover of material we can actually calculate its residence time, that is the average length of time a particular molecule of substance X spends in the ocean. And that would be calculated as the total amount dissolved in the ocean divided by its rate either of addition or removal so if we're assuming steady state the two will be the same, whichever is easiest to ma measure and that would normally be expressed in years Sorry, what does R T stand for again? Residence time. So w w what rate of addition or removal addition or removal? Yeah, right. Ei either the rate of addition or the rate of removal cos if we're assuming a steady state the two will be the same and it's just a question of for some substances it might be easier to measure th the rate of addition, for others it might be easier to measure the rate of removal. You should get the same answer if you did them both. Mhm. There are some residences, residence times, we'll note that the units are actually millions of years. Chlorine has a residence time of infinity, that's because it's being recycled round all the time so it's in the system forever,. Very low residence time for hydrogen carbonate biologically active, and an intermediate time for things like sodium and potassium which are common in crustal rock and are also commonly being deposited through sedimentation and so on. In general there's a good correlation between a substance's residence time and its concentration. The more important it is in sea water, the longer its residence time. The principal removal mech mechanisms for salts are inorganic precipitation a chemical reaction between the dissolved substance and a particle, such that it then becomes part of the particle and obviously for biologically mediated substances biological processes such as skeleton formation or conversion to biological tissue. just want to look at the carbonate system in a bit more detail. Calcium carbonate is teetering on the brink of solubility in sea water. The surface oceans are actually super-saturated with calcium carbonate so there's a lot in solution, there's more in solution than in theory is possible, in super-saturated condition and in addition there's a lot floating around in the solid form in biological material. Spontaneous precipitation from surface waters is actually fairly rare because most of the carbonate a ions are weakly bound up with magnesium ions in surface waters. So it's the presence of magnesium ions in surface sea waters that helps keep the calcium carbonate from precipitating. Sorry, what's bound up with ? The carbonate is bound up with magnesium ions, weakly. Very weakly but it is sufficient to pr prevent them pairing with calcium ions to form precipitate. What's that ? Er two plus and two minus. Now as th this weak bou bonding's overcome by biological processes to actually produce solid calcium carbonate in skeletons, now as that skeletal material sinks down through the water column, it moves out of the region of super-saturation and begins to dissolve. The region where it begins to dissolve is known as the lysochine okay? So that's the region where calcium carbonate is no longer super-saturated and so that skeletal material, as it floated down through the water column, would begin to dissolve. If you go deeper through the water column you'll come to a depth where all of the calcium carbonate has dissolved and that's known as the carbonate compensation depth, or C C D the carbonate compensation depth. These are, are not single depths, they're, they're more regions and the actual depth where the two regions occur varies around the ocean. The depth of the lysochine is basically controlled by water chemistry.. the P H and the concentration of carbonate in the water. The C C D is controlled both by the water chemistry, the P H and carbonate concentration, and by the rate of supply. So below an area with a very high biological activity, where there's a very large amount of calcium carbonate raining down , the C C D will be deeper because it will take that much longer for this material that's rained down to actually dissolve. Yeah? So, okay? So the C C D will be deeper under biologi biologically productive regions. ? Yeah. So the C C D will be deeper under regions with high biological productivity. And if you remember your distributions of deep sea sediments you will recall that calcium carbonate based deposits are rare in deep waters because it's all dissolved but are more common under regions where there is a high productivity because the C C D will have been depressed. So you can get calcium carbonate deposits for example, on the top of isolated sea mounts or mid-ocean ridges. The carbonate system is also important in the control of sea water P H. Typically sea water is alkaline around about eight plus or minus nought point two P H units and P H is defined as the negative log of the concentration of hydrogen ions. Variations in PH away from this are typically controlled by the equilibrium we've already seen between the hydrogen bicarbonate ion and carbonate and H plus. So this equilibrium is the principal mechanism for maintaining sea water P H. If it shifts that way you get a greater liberation of, of ion, of H plus ions which moves the P H down, making it more acid. How much chemistry can you remember? Equilibrium constants? If K is the equilibrium constant for that reaction then we can actually redefine our terms such that the concentration of hydrogen ions will be K multiplied by the concentration of hydrogen bicarbonate ions over the concentration of bicarbonate ions. In practice it's very difficult to measure the P H of sea water. Because there are so many substances in there an and the relative concentrations of many of these ion species are dependent on equilibrium reactions such as this, it makes it very difficult to measure using the traditional approaches. One way round that is to actually measure the alkalinity of the water. Alkalinity is not a measure of how alkaline a solution is, it is therefore a stupid name but it's the one the chemists give it. Alkalinity is defined as the amount of hydrogen ions required to neutralize the negative charge on the anions, I'll go through it again Roly in the solution. Okay? So that is the amount of hydrogen ions required to neutralize the char the negative charge on the anions. And therefore it can be found very easily, very directly, simply by titration. And having measured the alkalinity you can simply convert back to work out the concentrations of the carbonate and bicarbonate ions and from that you can calculate the P H using that relationship. Okay? So in practice it's easier to measure the alkalinity and then back-calculate to get that and hence the P H than to actually try and measure the P H directly from sea water. Are you sure you wouldn't physics? Right just to finish off I just wanna look at actual vertical distributions of elements in the ocean. We can actually characterize three types of distribution. Firstly those substances which increase relatively rapidly with depth and then become constant and this group are usually referred to as the bio-limiting element or a bi having a bio-limiting distribution. Substances which are required nutrients, micro-nutrients, copper and zinc are required as micro-nutrients by plant cells for example, would show distributions like this de decreased levels in surface waters where er in the photic zone biological activity is high they'll be continually stripped out of the water column there in the concentrations then increase as biological activity decreases and then becomes constant with depth. We then have a group of substances which are bio-unlimiting this is concentration and that's depth barium, bromine, chlorine iron magnesium, potassium,, sodium, sulphate will all be examples of bio-unlimiting substances. And of course because this is biological oceanography it's not as simple as that there is a third category which is bio-intermediate. These show some decrease in surface waters but not as severe as the bio- limiting substances calcium, barium carbon would be examples of bio-intermediate substances. Why doesn't it tail off at the bottom then if it equals out at depth? I thought you said with the bio- limiting it, it evened out at depth as a concentration Well it is, this is the concentration across here, this is depth. So that's a constant concentration. Yeah? Everybody happy? Follow all of that? Good. Do deep sea circulation tomorrow. Radium radium That's a washing powder. That's right, no that's Radion Ra radium microbes sea water . Keeps all the fishes clean. Keeps them sparkling white You've, you've got you've got a video which is scheduled for one thirty because you've got something else at two o'clock, but you can have it now if you prefer to have it now rather than one thirty Hello. Learning difficulties are often associated with behavioural or emotional problems, but how are they linked and why? Today on Ideas on Action, Polytechnic lecturers Bob Brooks and Rod Smart will help us answer those questions. I visited Bob Brooks at home, to ask why learning difficulties can create emotional problems. You have to look at the way in which children learn, and the principle vehicle through which children learn is associated with visual symbols, and later with the written word. Now if children are unable to interpret the visual symbols and the written word, in order to make sense of them, there's bound to be some reaction which will show itself in a sort of behavioural response which appears to be different from the responses we would receive from children who are able to interpret these words and symbols. Could you give me an example? Let's suppose you show a child a picture of a cow, and you indicate to the child that that animal is known as a cow. Now if the child cannot interpret and relate the symbols to the animal, then he's left wondering what the symbols mean, he can't relate the symbols to understanding that a cow is spelt verbally as C O W, and he's left quite mystified, and he doesn't know what we're talking about. In turn, we press our point and say, ‘But it's a cow, and this is a very simple word, and you ought to be able to understand it.’ So we begin to put pressure on the child, and the child reacts because he can't appreciate what we're trying to get across to him, and so we get a sort of stalemate situation, where the teacher, be it a professional teacher or a parent, is pressurizing the child to understand something which appears quite simplistic, and the child is responding quite deadly, because he cannot focus, he cannot conceptualize, what is to us a very simple concept. How would this manifest itself in behavioural terms? Well when we say anything to a child, we look for a response. When we offer a child a symbol, we expect a response. Now if the child doesn't understand the symbol, their behaviour can react in one of two directions. One it can go towards the withdrawal end of the spectrum, so that the child shuts up, withdraws, isolates himself and puts the lid on. Or at the other end, we get a reaction which is entirely aggressive, because the child is trying to grapple with something he doesn't understand, he doesn't get a sense of caring feeling from the person trying to teach him, so he reacts aggressively. And of course you can get the whole admixture in between total withdrawal and total aggression. How do teachers learn to distinguish between behaviour problems associated with learning difficulties and behaviour problems linked to a different set of disorders? Well, teachers can use school facilities to eliminate the possibility that a child has sight or hearing defects, or other physical or mental problems. Then, says Bob Brooks, teachers must observe the quality of the child's classroom response. The teacher in the first school classroom particularly has got to look out, they've got to be aware, does the child give any overt sign of recognition? If I can give you an example. We're all as teachers and parents familiar with a child gaining some new piece of information and all of a sudden their face lights up, their eyes become bright and they say, ‘Ah! I see.’ And we know they've learnt something, they've understood it and they've got it for life. Now when that sort of‘I see’ response is missing from the child, then I think we've got to think in terms of ‘Is this child able to understand the verbal and visual symbols we're offering?’ Sorting learning difficulties from behaviour problems can seem difficult for teachers and parents, but education specialist Rod Smart says the two may really be inseparable. I've worked with children in various settings, mainly in secondary school, and in recent years I've worked with students, so when I try to make that sort of categorization I find it very difficult. It's the classic chicken and the egg problem, that if you try and identify something starting one area, and using that as a sort of causal factor for another area of behaviour, I'm not sure whether, in the majority of cases, you can satisfactorily identify one as being the cause and the other being the result of that causal factor. And in many ways I don't think it's important, and I, I think that in the majority of our children with those kinds of difficulties you find the two in association, and you can't work on one without working on the other. I mean both in the experience of, that I've had and research that I've looked at, there seems to be in terms of positive results, kind of strategy that are being used are strategies that, that both improve learning performance and improve emotional conditions for the child. So I, I would be very reticent to suggest any programme that is specifically in one direction or the other. When you look at any remedial teacher, whatever their inclinations might be, when you actually observe work it's quite clear they're, they're always working on both an emotional level and on a learning level. Distinguishing between behaviour problems and learning difficulties is finally a matter of emphasis. Rod Smart. I think you might find a situation quite clearly where you would find a child behaving in such a way in the classroom that it was being disruptive to himself, disruptive to teachers, disruptive to, to his classmates, and therefore the, the first move must be in a direction of rearranging that behaviour so that there could develop a situation in which you might do something about the learning difficulty. On the other side of the coin you might find a child who is experiencing such difficulties in his learning that the first line of attack must be in, in terms of perhaps producing just an improvement of his base level of learning, so that the next step can be taken. So I think it, it is a question of emphasis. But I think before very long you are in fact working in both directions. To make the task of parents and teachers even harder, adolescents can aggravate the problem of detecting and solving behaviour problems associated with learning difficulties. Rod Smart reports. Identification of what might be called a transient problem, compared with, with a deep-seated long-term problem, is perhaps not always apparent. Undoubtedly adolescence is the one which raises numerous transient problems in terms of puberty particularly, in terms of physical change, where adolescents become very worried about their, their body image, about the changes that are happening to them physically. And in the majority of those cases, that is a transient problem, and teacher assistance needs to be at a level of, of general support to get them over that period. The longer term help is something that I don't think teachers can do on their own, I don't think even somebody like a, a specialist school counsellor can do on their own, which is the time at which the availability of agency help needs to be, become apparent. And I think, I mean the kind of situations I would think of as in that would be, just to take it from my own experience, of children who become quite experienced. Very often, puberty for example, that depression will become more enhanced, so it might present itself as a problem that seems to be rising out of puberty, but as time goes on and through school help that doesn't seem to be resolving that problem, I think that's the point at which the specialist within the school, the teacher within the school, must think about, ‘This doesn't seem to be resolving itself. I need to look elsewhere,’ and the referral processes that go on would be through the G P or, or through the school psychological services where longer term help might be necessary. And, just quickly, I can think of two or three examples of children who in fact became very suicidal through their depression. And they certainly needed more help than the school could give. But it's very difficult for parents in those situations perhaps to accept the, the deep-seated nature of their children's problems, especially if it's, it's somewhere connected with the kind of defective relationships they're having within their own homes. Parents and teachers can always turn for help with learning and behaviour problems to their school psychologist, or to the East Sussex Dyslexia Association. But Bob Brooks has another suggestion for parents. I think the only response you can make to any child who's facing a challenge is that you care, that you will be patient, that you will go on and on and on. So often teachers and parents set limits. If nothing happens by such and such a time, then we shall have to do something else. They very often don't know what the something else is going to be, but we tend to put time limits on what children should do and when they should do it. With any disturbed child, we have to be patient and we have to learn to wait. And I think there's one important strategy which many teachers are apprehensive of using. This is what I call the strategy of non-decision, the decision that we will do nothing, that we won't harass the child, that we will give the child time to relax and move at his own pace, rather than determining the pace that we feel the child ought to be following. And based on his own experience, Rod Smart thinks that parent-teacher cooperation plays a vital part in solving behaviour problems. I worked for three years as a school counsellor in South Brompton, and the majority of the children who came my way were children who had some degree of behavioural difficulty or emotional disturbance. And although my initial work was with the individual child, I found that in a large number of cases, the parental interest was of a high order and, and the children's willingness to involve parents in their behavioural difficulties was also of a high order, so I found myself working not just within the school, not just with the child, but in a parent-child situation. And there it didn't materialize as much as an advice service as a way of working together to solve the child's problems. I'd rather take that approach, and what I would suggest is that, wherever possible, teachers should think about involving parents in the kinds of difficulties that the child is having in school, and thereby becomes a team effort rather than parents working one direction and perhaps teachers working in another. What else can parents do? Well, Bob Brooks says that patient support is one of the best helps that parents can offer to children with learning difficulties. In this society of ours, many children are led to confusion by the complexity of the life in which they're placed. And I think for the dyslexic child, for the disturbed child generally, we need to offer an atmosphere which is calm. I think the thing that I would say to parents: ‘You may be anxious, you may be concerned. Try not to convey your anxiety and concern to the children. If you can care for them, show them that you love them. Very often these things will at least ease, if not heal.’ Many thanks to Bob Brooks and Rod Smart. Next week on Ideas in Action, we'll start Christmas early, with a new two-part series on Yuletide tales. Until then, good-bye. Hello. This is the first of a series of programmes in which we're going to look at the computer and its impact on our lives. In this programme I'm going to sketch in a bit of the background, by way of introduction, and in later weeks, various colleagues of mine, concerned with all aspects of the computing world, will be helping me build up the over-all picture. Details of individual programmes are given as usual in the Radio Times. I suppose that we each of us are born with our own primitive computers: two hands and ten fingers. Which of us do not find it convenient on occasions to count on our fingers? Walk into a room where there's a group of people, and ask, which want tea, and which want coffee. The natural and, and instinctive way of arriving at the totals, is to use the fingers to count. On one hand for tea, and on the other hand for coffee. The difficulty arises, of course, when you run out of fingers, or try to take milk and sugar into account. This is a primitive but thoroughly respectable bit of computing. Of course when we think and talk about computers, we generally have in mind something much more formal and more scientific than our own hands. A box with knobs and buttons to press, which does a lot of calculations rather quickly. But at a fundamental level there's really little difference between you and I struggling to count on our fingers, and the most modern and sophisticated piece of computing wizardry. In both cases there's a facility for storing data, for performing operations according to some sort of program, and for telling the operator the results. The difference lies in the capacity for providing or performing all these functions. So if computers are really that ordinary and familiar, what's so special about them? Well I think it's really three things. First of all they have enormous and very efficient and reliable memories for retaining simple bits of information. And since complicated situations or statements can very easily be broken down into a set of simple statements, this in effect means that computers can store complex pieces of information too. Secondly, computers can do sums and manipulations with this information very rapidly. Here again, only very simple operations are possible. But since more complicated instructions can always be broken down into a collection of simple steps, this doesn't matter either. Millions of bits of information can be processed at a rate of millions of steps per second. In a recent B B C 2 programme on computing, the presenter commented on the huge capacity of computers such as those used by the Meteorological Office to predict the weather. The one used in London can handle fifty million pieces of information in one second, and it still takes minutes to produce a forecast for a few days ahead. As a comparison, he pointed out that if the entire population of China were set the same task, it would take them more than four hours to complete it. Of course, this is not even really a realistic option, because you'd still have the impossible communication problem of getting the information out to the individuals involved in the first place, and then getting the answers back again and coordinating them to make some sort of over-all sense. The third feature of the modern computer is that it is now much more accessible to the layman. Whereas historically it was expensive, rare, and available only to the privileged few, mainly mathematicians and scientists, now anyone can own and use one. Look at any newspaper or magazine, and you'll see advertisements for personal computers. There are now over a hundred makes of micro-computer for sale in the United Kingdom, and several thriving magazines entirely devoted to these devices. What cost hundreds of thousands of pounds in the nineteen-fifties, and occupied a large building, now only costs a hundred or two, and is not much larger than a typewriter. Even the methods of getting information in and out of a computer have changed beyond recognition. The reels of punch-paper tape and the boxes of cards are often replaced by ordinary cassette tapes. The language that the layman has to learn is not the original machine code or even the more modern FORTRAN or PASCAL, which is used by scientists, but is generally BASIC, which, as its name denotes, is a very straightforward set of instructions in simple English. When you want the computer to list what instructions it has received, you type LIST on the keyboard. And the instructions are displayed on a monitor, rather like on a television set. Let's have a look more closely at some of the changes that have taken place in the past few decades. When talking about computers, we use the word ‘hardware’ to describe the actual machine and its accessories, and ‘software’to describe the actual programs that are written and devised to operate using the hardware. When computers, as we understand them in a modern sense, first came into use in the early nineteen-fifties, they were huge, expensive and unreliable. The basic circuits used electronic valves, and the heat generated was itself a great problem. The electrical power consumed and the heat that had to be dissipated by elaborate cooling systems made them expensive and inconvenient to run. Parts were always going wrong, and half the time computers were out of action as technicians laboriously tried to find and remedy faults. Quite apart from all this, computers took up an awful lot of space. They needed their own buildings. All computers operate on a very simple and fundamental principle. Basically they can add or subtract, and anything more complicated than this has to be achieved by breaking down the more elaborate procedures down to a sometimes large number of successive steps. For example multiplication can be reduced to an appropriate number of additions, and so on. In principle this may appear to be a very cumbersome activity, but in practice it's not. Because you can use a particular sort of algebra, based on the so-called binary system, which greatly shortens and simplifies problems, which might at first sight seem terribly long and complicated. The early computer programmer and user had to learn to speak the language of the computer, machine code, and had to learn how to put these simple instructions, often in very tedious forms, into the computer. The language had to be learnt and used with great accuracy, because there was very little tolerance for error. If a mistake was made, the program didn't work. And probably very little information was fed back to the operator as to the cause of the error. I went on a computer training course in the mid-nineteen-fifties. After a week in the classroom, those of us who were regarded as having mastered the principles were allowed to run a very simple and short program on the London University computer, provided it was passed by one of our instructors. So what has happened in the three decades that have passed? Electronic valves gave way to transistors, and these have been replaced by the silicon chip, literally a thin slice of silicon, on which miniature electrical circuits can be created. Whole circuits are reduced to small slivers of material, measuring a few millimetres across, and the number of components and whole circuits that can be put on each chip is increasing each year. In the early nineteen-sixties, each chip consisted of about ten electrical components, and was equivalent to one logic circuit. By nineteen-seventy, a thousand components were being squeezed onto a single chip. In nineteen-seventy-five, a hundred thousand. And now it's possible to put the equivalent of a million components on one single chip. And progress hasn't stopped even yet. It's estimated that by nineteen-ninety, there will be something like a hundred million components on a single chip. And the chip will still only be the size of a centimetre or two. And all this has happened with costs going down rather than up. The reason for this is quite straightforward. As techniques improve, the number of components that can be put onto each prototype chip increases. The first chip can represent hundreds of thousands, if not millions of pounds, of investment and effort. But having got one working chip, the next thousand or even million, can be reproduced very cheaply indeed. Not only have the basic building blocks of the computer become smaller and cheaper, and hence more readily available to a greater number of people, the language of the computer has become much more accessible to the lay person. First of all, new languages were developed for the scientist and engineer who did not want to learn basic code. FORTRAN, PASCAL, ALGOL are examples that I've already mentioned, and will be familiar to science students. These were used by the computer operator to write programs for his or her particular purpose. As a preliminary, the computer memory was fed with a large set of instructions for translating the program into machine code. A bit like getting the computer to swallow a dictionary and a book of grammar, before you started speaking to it. As more and more uses were found for computers in business and commerce, as well as in science and engineering, even easier languages were developed for lay use. And as I've mentioned already, the most common now used is the BASIC language, which sound like a rather halting English. And it won't be long before even more colloquial and everyday languages will be the norm rather than the exception. The effort, and to a great extent, the cost, has moved from producing hardware to developing software. Programs for use by accountants, shopkeepers, doctors and even housewives. In nineteen-fifty-five, about eighty percent of the capital cost of a computer lay in its hardware, with the other twenty percent being invested in software programs to perform particular tasks. Now the reverse is true. A company might spend ten thousand pounds on a computer, but they would then spend sixty thousand pounds on the associated software to make it work. At the moment computers are increasing in speed by an average factor of ten per annum, and the number of computers in use in the Western world is increasing by about twenty-five percent per year. If we assume that the number of professional programmers, these are people who are competent to use and develop software, is roughly proportional to the number of commercial computers in operation, this means that if the trend continues, in ten years time, there will be a need for roughly a hundred times as many computer programmers than we've got as present. I'm not quite sure how many we've got in Britain. But if we take a guess that there are thirty thousand, this means that in nineteen-ninety, three million people, or something like a tenth of the entire working population, will be engaged in writing materials for computers. Of course this calculation has to be taken with a pinch of salt. There will only be that number of computers if the range of applications and uses increases a hundredfold too. But even if my estimate is significantly wrong, computing remains a growth area, and one in which, notwithstanding economic recessions, the outlook looks bright. Don't put your daughter on the stage, Mrs Worthington, send her to be trained as a computer programmer. Well, that's all that we have time for today. In the next few weeks, I shall be looking at all aspects of the computer world. Until next week, good-bye. Hello. Computers are used increasingly for commercial purposes. Not just by large companies, but also by quite small organizations. Delia Venables runs the Micro-computer Advisory Service based in Lewes. Delia, have we reached a stage where not just big organizations but also quite small firms ought to each have their own computer? Well not the very small firm yet, I would say. If it only takes you an hour or two a week to run your administration, then you don't yet need a computer. But probably at the stage where somebody is spending two or three hours a day erm processing invoices, trying to get cash in, erm looking at the stock control, then that's the point where they could very well consider a small computer now. And what sort of price are we talking about when people say they ought to have a computer? Hundreds of thousands, or, or much less these days? Well you've probably seen in erm the newspapers you can now buy small computers for one hundred or two hundred pounds, but they're not really what we're talking about, because the very smallest computers of this sort, like the Sinclair and the B B C computer, don't have any sort of storage for the data. Or, at most, they allow you to plug in your own cassette tape-recorder, but that's a very slow and not very erm professional way of looking after for example your customer records. So in order to have something that enables you to keep records of two or three hundred customers, and then of course to be able to print out some sort of lists or invoices at the end of it, you would need to pay, probably even now, a couple of thousand pounds, and very often of course more. So your rule of thumb, for starting, is that if somebody's spending more than two or three hours a day, perhaps, on accounts or stock-taking or whatever, then it might be worth checking out the possibility of using a computer. Yes indeed. Because once you've got a computer running for your main application then you can always find other things to do with it which may help you to improve your business. What you need are different programs. And you can buy the programs as off-the-shelf, packaged programs for relatively little money, perhaps a hundred or two hundred pounds a packaged program, so you might pay perhaps two or three hundred pounds for a stock control program, two or three hundred pounds for an invoicing or sales ledger program. This obviously adds on to the cost of your basic computer but if you are a small business it isn't an enormous amount. The sort of computer we're talking about would have two floppy disc units. And so, depending on what you want to do on nine o'clock on Monday morning, you would take out the required floppy disc, put it in your computer, take out your data disc, which you would also have kept, put that in the second floppy disc unit, and you'd be ready to run that particular application. And how much experience is, do operators need to work one of these things? An ordinary little firm that has operated perfectly cheerfully with a clerk and a few assistants over the years, is it actually a practical proposition to install the computer and perhaps train one or two of the workers to use it? Very much a practical proposition, but I think you do have to be fairly keen and interested. erm What you can't do is take somebody who really the very idea of computers, and turn them into a successful computer operator, because they will make mistakes, and having made mistakes they will be terrified and won't want to do it again. But somebody that likes experimenting and that, is aware of all the possibilities that are opening with computers, will in fact learn very quickly. erm Anybody that's well-organized, good at clerical operations, preferably can type a little bit even though, if only perhaps with a few fingers, erm would make a perfectly computer operator for a small firm. And we've talked about the packages and the software. You said they each cost a few hundred pounds. Have you any idea, and as an estimate perhaps, what the total amount of a typical collection of software packages would be, compared with the actual cost of the computer? Well, if you're talking about the smallest sort of business, and you've spent maybe two thousand pounds on your actual computer, complete with a printer and the floppy discs I've been talking about, then you might expect to spend another five hundred to a thousand pounds on a basic set of software. If you buy slightly larger computers with more storage erm and more facilities, then you will tend to pay more for the software. For example if you spent four thousand pounds on the hardware, then you could well spend fifteen hundred or two thousand pounds on the software. And so on. Let's have a look at some of the applications. You mentioned accounts. What are the advantages of actually using a computer to keep accounts as opposed to a gentleman sitting on a tall stool with a quill pen? Well I think gentlemen on tall stools with quill pens are becoming increasingly hard to find, and to pay a living wage to. erm And a lot of the time this gentleman would have been sorting through the data, finding out who owed how much money, writing them polite letters, and this is the sort of thing you can do very quickly with a computer. You still have to put the data in once, you have to enter the invoice, but once it's entered, it will be there to be accessed in all sorts of different ways, and at the end of the month, a business would very often want to send out statements. Well it might just take a couple of hours to print out a complete set of statements for two hundred customers. And it can be done on the morning after the end of the previous month, whereas manually our gentleman on the tall stool might have spent at least a week preparing it, and getting them out, and that's a week that you haven't got your money in. What about erm order processing and so on? Does that have an advantage to put on computer? Well, this is a slightly more complicated application, where you're not just selling for example straight from stock, but you take orders from customers, and then you would have to manufacture, perhaps to buy in, to assemble, some sort of goods for sending out. And so the systems become a little more complicated in that you have to keep records of your customers, of your orders, of your stock, and to some extent, of how your own production, or your assembly, is getting along. I think for a very small company this perhaps might be more complicated in computing terms than would be worthwhile, but as soon as you're getting to the point of many orders in a week, then it can be exceedingly useful to be able to ask the computer to tell you for example what are all the outstanding orders, what are all the overdue orders, what is the stock position bearing in mind that some stock is committed for certain orders, what orders have we got with suppliers to us which are still outstanding, and questions of this sort, can make your business much more efficient. And we talked a little bit earlier about word-processing. Presumably the great advantage of word-processing, if, if you have the sort of decent printer that you mentioned, is that you could send what appear to be rather personal letters to a whole lot of people rather rapidly erm putting in, for example, at a very elementary level, their individual name, but also coupling together relevant paragraphs erm which would be appropriate to them. Yes. This is the sort of thing Reader's Digest have done for years, of course, on great enormous computers. They would have lists of all the people that had bought books from them or might have bought books from them in the past, categorized by where they live, the age of the person, the sex, the special interests, the past purchases, and then they would send out special books erm special letters, if they had a new doggie book coming out they might select all the ladies over fifty-five who had bought doggie books in the past. What Reader's Digest with its enormous great computers have been doing for at least ten years, now people with small computers and a word-processing package can do for themselves, and certainly they would be selecting from their customer lists particular people to send particular advertising to and special letters. And we've talked mainly about small companies, small firms of one kind and another. Presumably all this applies equally well to, to shops because I suppose you could link up the cash registers to some sort of stock control, so that you could almost keep a running total of what you, you have in stock as you erm punch the appropriate numbers up on the, on the till? Yes, this is what big shops, particularly in America, have now been doing for a few years, in that the till that takes your order as it were is also a computer terminal on line to large computers somewhere else, and every time your tin of baked bins is checked out by the girl on the till, it is adjusting the stocks on its large computer and saying, ‘Hey, we're going to run out of baked beans at approximately ten o'clock tomorrow morning. We must put in an order tonight.’ That sort of application hasn't yet reached the small shops where really the proprietor of the shop himself is only too well aware of when the baked beans is running out. But it is coming, and certainly some of the medium-sized shops, perhaps with a couple of two or three outlets but under the same management, where it's not quite so easy to see when you're running out of baked beans, are already beginning to take advantage of some of these retailing computers. Delia, you yourself run an advisory service. What sort of general advice would you offer people who wanted to check out the possibility of using a computer in their own operation? Well you have to have some idea of what you want to do with it. And that really means which operations, in your own business, are taking quite a lot of time, and therefore costing you money. And the sort of operations of course that are capable of being put on a computer. So that first of all we would have to look at how much time people spend preparing invoices, sending out statements, producing age debtors lists and that sort of thing. Quite often people don't need a computer, what they need is a slightly different manual system, and I tell them that quite often, they're very, very pleased, they think they've saved themselves two or three thousand pounds at least. But if you do find an area where you could save a key person several hours a day, then that is real money saved where he could be using his special expertise in his business to get more business, and then one would have to look more closely at erm the particular application, particular jobs that he's doing and that could be put on the computer. This might be things we've talked about, stock control, sales ledger and so forth. Having decided on that general application, then it's a question of shopping around amongst all the different computers that are on the market, and there are hundreds, to find the ones where the ready-made programs most nearly match the needs of that particular business. It really isn't these days just the hardware, the, the box of electronic magic tricks that matter. It is the programs that have been written, and these packaged programs have got to be fairly close to your business in order not to be very frustrating and more bother than they are worth. The software is the key to finding the right computer these days. And do you normally buy the software from the same person that sells you the computer? Well that's extremely advisable, because if you have a problem in the middle of your morning's run of sending out invoices, you may not know whether it's a software problem in the programs, or a hardware, hardware problem in the actual electronics. It's much better to be able to have one telephone number of somebody to ring up and say, ‘Hey, the screen's gone blank and I don't know what to do next,’ and have somebody, initially over the telephone, giving you advice, helping you to get round the problem, or, if necessary, sending round a service engineer quite smartly. But what you don't want is a series of conversations with two or three different people all of whom really want you to go away and are just trying to pass the buck to someone else. And it's quite possible to arrange for demonstrations of suitable equipment to be given to you, is it? Oh yes. Any company that's trying to sell computers is only too pleased to give demonstrations, and either you would go to their showroom, where they've got it all set up, erm or they would bring the, the equipment in to you. In fact there's advantages both ways round. If you go to their showroom, you can get a feel for how they, the supplier, run their business and whether they're efficient and whether they've got erm good people in their organization. Of course if they come to you then you get a feel of how the equipment is going to feel in your office, and that can be useful too. And what about maintenance? Is that ever a problem? Yes, it can be a problem. You certainly don't want your computer grinding to a halt in the middle of your important statement run. And you have to have a maintenance contract. If you're a serious user you simply can't do without it, and this can be expensive. It's likely to be several hundred pounds a year even for the cheapest computers, at least ten percent of the cost of the computer a year, and it starts straight away. I don't really understand how computer suppliers seem to get away with this, because with most things you have a year's guarantee, and then you start your maintenance contract. But it's almost universal, with small computers, that you start your maintenance contract within days, or weeks, at most, of getting it installed. And so you can really consider that your first year's cost is not just the cost of the computer but it's also this extra few hundred pounds for your maintenance contract. And lastly, Delia, do you see the movement towards more and more computerization continuing in the future? Yes, but I think there's no need to buy computers just to be clever or to be well ahead of your neighbours or your other business friends. Computers can also get in the way, and if they're not running properly they can be frustrating. So I think caution is erm very important in buying a computer, and if you wait a couple of months erm you won't have done any harm, because something newer and more beautiful is always on the way. So don't rush at it. Well thank you very much, Delia. That's all that we have time for today. Next week, Erin Sloman will be back again, talking about ways of teaching people computing. Partly in the questioner's mind, erm could be answered by reference to language problems, I mean, a technical or professional qualifications may be equivalent, and may be awfully good, but if one expert and qualified person can't talk the language of the country he wants to work in, that's going to be a barrier on its own, and I reckon that is often the bigger barrier between the easy movement of qualified people from one of our countries to another, than the lack of qualifications, or disagreement about qualifications themselves. erm I think that must often be the case. The next question comes from Mr Len Reed, of The Crescent, Morescombe, who asks: ‘Do the British take sport less seriously than other European countries, and is the idea of the amateur sportsman, or artist, for that matter, essentially English?’ Geoffrey. Well thank you, I, I'll leave to Norbert the handling of the artist's side of this, but as to the amateur sportsman, I know this is a very familiar and accepted notion among us, that the British don't take sport seriously enough, but I wonder if it's not one of the many self-delusions that we suffer from. erm After all, sport, sport in every country was amateur until some time about the middle of this century. If you look at the people who went in for the Olympic Games, right up to the Second World War, erm you would call them amateurs. I suppose that in a few countries like Nazi Germany in nineteen-thirty-six the erm the nation's amateur champions were given a special backing because of the force of nationalism erm national focus of attention on them at that date, but it, it still was, they were amateurs still meeting on equal ground. It's only since the Second World War I think that a few nations, especially the, the, the highly socialist ones with a strong erm directed policy of sports, in sports and education, have begun to put an amount of effort into sports training which the less socialistic and less state concentrated countries like our own have found a, a bit offensive. Now, whose fault is that but our own? It's, I, recur here to something I said in the broadcast I did earlier in this series, that a British national characteristic which distinguishes us very much from every Continental country, is our erm phobia about committing money and means to the state to spend for our common good. Now the complaint about sports is simply that other countries put more central and local government money into sport and into facilities, into training, into stadia and so on that we do. We could do exactly the same with sport, like we could do it with art and theatre and music and, and a hell of a lot of other things, but it's unfortunately a part of our national political tradition that a large number of us feel some reluctance about doing this. Do other countries have the same distinction between amateur and professional that we do? Yes I think so. And, and, and lets remember that the first big shock that British sportsmen got, the first shaking of the earth which intimated that we weren't so hot at these things as we used to be was in professional sport, it was in football, it was when the Hungarians beat England in nineteen-fifty-six, and the Hungarian army officer Elista Pushkas became erm a world figure because he'd led the team that had humbled British football might. Well, they were professionals as far as I know, it wasn't a matter there of professionals beating amateurs. erm As for the distinction between the amateur and the professional, no, I think, I think that we've got stuck with this amateur business, partly because it's related to the idea of the English gentleman, which is only slowly fading. erm I don't think he exists as much as he used Norbert wants something. Well I, I absolutely agree with that. I, I think in fact there's still an assumption that the real sportsman, the real artist, the real human being is the amateur of each sort, and not the professional. There's a kind of shyness about trusting the professional in this country. erm If you can call somebody an expert, that means you're being rude to him. erm erm Brian calls us experts at the beginning of the programme erm everyone listening knows we can't all be experts of course on all these things, we're just sort of amateurishly trying to be sensible on these questions. erm I think the problem about sport and art in this country very often is that the amateur is over-regarded and the professional's under-regarded, and as Geoffrey rightly said, erm underfinanced on a national level. erm There's a kind of assumption that if something, if somebody does something on a Sunday afternoon, for lack of better, something better to do or because it's raining and golf is therefore, therefore off, that he therefore does it in a truer, sincerer way than a man who might be doing it as his career, for his income, to keep his family alive and so on. I honestly think that it's time the English got off this notion, which after all has nothing to do with the original meaning of the word ‘amateur’, which means having a passion for something, erm got off this notion that the amateur, the gentleman, as Geoffrey said, is necessarily more truly engaged with the activity than somebody else. Of course we're very wedded to this notion. It goes right across into politics and administration, doesn't it? Yes, to a certain extent. Certainly we rely on erm unsalaried voluntary justices of the peace. Very few erm Continental countries would consider entrusting the administration of justice erm to erm people who took an afternoon or a day off work every week or so and went in to sit on the Bench. But it does seem to be = another example of the way in which we look to the amateur, to somebody who depends, for example, on the, very often on the legal briefing of the Clerk of the Court, erm to counterbalance that with his common sense. We do put a very high premium on common sense, I think, and that certainly is a national characteristic. mhm It just occurred to me that our Civil Service, in its higher reaches, is also notoriously recruited very largely from the ranks of people who studied Latin and Greek at universities. That is still to some extent, erm though less true, I daresay, than it once was, but the mystique, I think, survives, does it not, Anne will tell us, in Whitehall, that these people bring erm who, who are essentially amateurs in matters of political science, sociology, international relations and diplomacy, bring a gentleman amateur's omnicompetent wisdom. Certainly there's a very strong feeling that common sense is not something erm that can be trained by a training in political science and that it's valuable. I think we have to be a little bit careful about this because, of course, erm the feeling is not that once they've been in the job for a little while that they are still amateurs, it's merely that we don't require them to know a great deal about what they're going to do before they start. But I think most people would recognize the very considerable professionalism that they acquire on the job. Where we have a different point of view is the point of view that says that a general education which will train the mind erm and expand capacity for judgement and so on, erm is perhaps more important than an exact knowledge of erm some particular political science theory. mhm What sort of a general education is A level in this country, do you think? It's obviously more specialized than some of the education erm at comparable level in other countries, both in France and in Germany erm they take erm as their eighteen-plus exam erm an exam which covers a rather wider field, erm so in that sense, oddly, we specialize early, which is an interesting comparison. Well we do seem to be still wedded to some form of British amateurism, I think, the panel would agree with me there. Mrs Connie Bunker of Hassex Road,Herspear Point wants to know, ‘Are the health and social service provisions in different countries similar to those in Britain, and is there a move towards uniformity between the countries in the E E C?’ Gosh. I think there's a great deal of disparity between the countries of Western Europe erm in the way in which health and social security provisions are organized and erm provided. erm There seems on the whole to be general agreement throughout Western Europe about the kinds of things that ought to be covered by health and social security system _ industrial accidents, sickness, provision for old age and so on— and all the countries of the European Community, for example , have some kind of system that provide these sorts of benefits. And in all Western European countries the state is increasingly involved in trying to ensure that the system works, proper standards are met, that facilities are reasonably equally spread over the country and so on. But it is very difficult to make comparisons. We can for example say that in West Germany erm a worker who's paid contributions for forty-five years gets an old-age pension that amounts to about seventy-five percent of what he was taking home in take-home pay before he retired, and obviously this looks a much better deal than the British old age pensioner gets. But we need to know a lot more about for example his housing costs, his rent and rate rebates that he may be entitled to and so on, before we can really say erm that we can make a proper comparison erm and different countries have different priorities. In France there's long been a high priority on keeping the birth rate up, so there are very high maternity grants and family allowances, especially if you've got three or more children. But some of the comparisons we can do produce quite interesting facts. erm The proportion of the total economic activity of the country, the G D P that is spent on social security and health care, is much higher in West Germany and in France than in Britain. erm On social security and health together it's about ten percentage points higher in West Germany erm and about six percentage points higher in France than in the U K And I must say I do wonder why in West Germany erm you've got half as many again doctors per hundred thousand of the population of the U K and only about two-thirds as many nurses, which does suggest, you know, differences in national approaches to things like health care. And of course you get differences in organization as well. erm In some countries they're run through the state and in others through insurance associations or insurance groups, so that you get this kind of difference. And I can't see any moves towards uniformity, I'm really not aware that there are any pressures in Europe towards a common system. I, I wonder why the questioner was interested in the uniformity business. Is it that she, she's, she's, she's wondering what will happen to her family or children if they go abroad, or is she thinking that each country in the Community, perhaps having some special erm excellence of its own, ought to be shedding this example among the others so that we all raise ourselves to a common, higher level? If that's what she's thinking of, then I guess that we all very much wish it could happen. That if our health service and social security system has got any special advantages erm left, which it may still have, erm then perhaps erm our friends in the Community could learn a bit from them. It sounds as if we could learn a great deal from Germany and Holland about, in the health service, erm because their systems by now by all statistical tests of mortality and illness and so on, seem to be doing a better job than ours. Although in terms of expense they are of course more expensive, and therefore this also erm is something one, one has to consider. It is a question of priorities and what people, you think it's worth paying for. And the Germans for example are at the moment very concerned, and indeed the French too, very concerned to try and keep costs down, because they have been erm going too fast. National food, drink, sport and erm other habits must also be relevant to the understanding of this problem. I think that's true. And in so far as it, as the question arises erm of what kind of, of provisions erm are you going to find if you go abroad, erm then I think we can say that within the European Community, erm citizens of one member state are entitled to what the citizens of the member state in which they happen to be staying are entitled to. erm So that if you erm visit France, for example, erm you will find yourself being reimbursed for the same amount of your medical cost as a French citizen would have had reimbursed to him. erm In some cases this can cause difficulty and some self-employed people who have erm tried to erm get the necessary documentations to claim this, have found that they're not covered in some countries of the European Community erm because the general national erm insurance schemes there don't erm apply to self-employed people. So that erm although you're entitled to what a native of that country would get, so long as you're in the European Community, even that can vary. Thank you. We talked earlier about amateur British people and we talked about amateur British magistrates and I'm a, an amateur British magistrate, but the question that I'm going to put next was put by a colleague of mine, who has preferred to remain anonymous, and that is, it's proposed to fine motorists on the spot for minor offencmes in this country in the near future, and the question is, ‘Does this system apply in other European countries, and is it a good system?’ Norbert, you look as if you've got views on this. Well, I know it applies in some European countries. erm I can't roll them off and I don't know if it applies in all of them, but it happened to me in Italy that erm I was fined on the spot. The offence was grievous and innocent, I drove the wrong way round a roundabout, which sounds appalling but there was not a single other car in sight to, in a sense to steer by so to speak, erm but there was one policeman, and he stopped me, and he fined me, and I had to search for my purse, which I had well hidden, this being Italy, erm underneath all the bedding and the tents and the cooking pots, found it in due course, presented him very shakily with these thousand lire or whatever it was he wanted, and, and this is really the point, drove off very shakily too. A, that I was upset, I don't like being fined, but it's also I don't like being told off by anybody, you know, it's a sort of basic child reaction. erm And I think this is a serious point. erm I think in a way to, as many a parent knows, to act instantly, cause some pain, and then let the matter drop, is a very good system in some senses, but is it, is it a good thing to have happening in the middle of traffic? erm I suggest that on the whole something might be gained if this was tried here. erm We park appallingly carelessly, some of us do it intentionally very often, some of us do it innocently or probably ignorantly, and perhaps to be fined on the spot would be a way of saving an awful lot of paperwork, an awful lot of time, and perhaps reminding people that they shouldn't be doing these things although I'm always slightly worried, this is in a sense another problem, I'm slightly worried by, by the inequity that six pounds or whatever it is will mean a lot to one person and hardly anything at all to another, and you do see some cars mis-parking again and again, and I'm not sure that erm the instant penalty would make much difference there. erm How does one in any case fine a motorist who isn't standing by his car or sitting in it? erm I would, if the question is shall we try it, if that is implied, I would say it's worth trying in a very moderate way, it may require the police and the police representatives so to speak, the wardens if they're going to be empowered to do this kind of thing, I think it's going to force them to become very, very diplomatic and civilized in the way they handle it, but we of course too will have to learn to respond in a civilized manner. It isn't only Italy in which it applies. My husband got fined in Germany erm for crossing a road on foot erm when the green man erm to enable, that said that the pedestrian crossing was clear wasn't showing. There was a red light up, and he was stopped by a policeman as he reached the opposite pavement and duly asked for the appropriate number of marks. erm I sometimes feel erm that erm in fact = it would be a good idea when I see people doing things which I regard as immediately dangerous, but I think it might make considerable difficulties for the relationship between the police and the motoring public which erm are already at times very strained, and I'm not sure, for some of the reasons erm that Norbert has suggested, that it's erm necessarily a very erm happy system. On the other hand I suspect that you as a magistrate have, have views about the amount of time that it takes up erm in your court, dealing with what must seem to you erm fairly erm minor offenses, and I wonder what you feel about it. Oh well that's really turning it round, isn't it? erm My feeling is that it would work very well provided there was a, a safeguard, and that is that if you wanted to argue you could. And that you, if you wanted to go through appropriate court procedures and disagree with the official then that was up to you. In other words you essentially had the choice on the spot of saying, ‘Yes, I certainly did it, and here's my fiver or whatever it is,’ or ‘No I don't agree with you and I would like to go through the proper judicial procedures.’ Well there is a kind of motoring offence and it's really a parking offence which we're all familiar with, about which there is no doubt whatever, and it's when one is parked on a double yellow line. Now, that is a bloody nuisance to everybody erm who is trying to go along the street, which is of such a narrowness or difficulty, that it has been marked with double yellow lines in order to, to facilitate the flow of traffic. And all kinds of reasons are conventionally winked at by our good-natured policemen and traffic wardens. erm One pretends that one's wife is going into the shop just for ten, you know for just three minutes, or that there is a baker's van delivering stuff at nine, nine o'clock in the morning. But in, in the United States I've noticed, the laws about the yellow lines are much better observed and the traffic circulates better. I can see that erm to introduce into this country on-the-spot fining, such as is known in some Continental countries, erm might sour relations in an unfortunate way between the executors of the law and the victims. What would be more satisfactory would be the introduction of the American towaway system, in which great lorries with grabs and hooks come round, and without any ado whatever, whoosh the car away from where it is illegally and improperly parked. That's a great satisfaction to everybody, it goes to a car pound, and then you have to go there and pay your sixty dollars or whatever it is to get it out. There's no souring of relations because there's no argument possible. erm The penalty is fixed, it's redeeming your car from the pound, and the traffic is enabled to go through the street in the way that the planners of the traffic system had intended. I, I absolutely agree with Geoffrey on this. I, I think we perhaps as amateur drivers and amateur policemen and amateur wardens and whatever, we don't take the double yellow lines half seriously enough, erm and I think parking generally is, is something we're very bad at and I'm an occasional sinner in this respect too, but it, it did strike me the other day, erm paying a fifteen pound fine for parking on a single yellow line on a Sunday afternoon but I hadn't noticed a sign that said I shouldn't, erm paying that fifteen pound fine in other words not having paid the six pound instant fine, I remember thinking that, really there's, there was no way of talking back, and I had in fact attempted an explanation as to why I'd done it, and explained the reasons why I thought this really was very overlookable on the side of the law, erm I don't suppose they paid much attention to it, I don't imagine giving it a moment's thought at all. At any rate the effect was the same as if I hadn't written at all. So in a sense there was a kind of instant, automatic, mechanical, ‘I'm the big man, you're the offending person in this respect’ feeling about it, it was a one-way system anyway. And as I say, if it was done in a very civilized way by people who'd perhaps learnt to smile or somehow turn this, what must be a minor offence, into a minor occasion, erm I think it, it might actually ease relationships. Thank you. Another question is more in connection with the Common Market. Mrs Judy Robinson, from Fermor , wants to know ‘Will the change in the French Presidency alter the balance of power in the E E C?’ Geoffrey. Boy. erm I'm not sure that Anne, erm with her special knowledge of French politics, wouldn't be better at this than me, but these thoughts come through a historian's head. First, that the change in the government of a particular country erm can never work that much change that quickly in its policies and relations with its neighbours because they are determined by its economy, by its history, by its geography and so on. erm An awful lot of elements in the equation are fixed already. And, and, erm just as the changing headmastership of, of a, a big school never alters the character of the school for years and years because it's like a ship which has got momentum going through the water, you can't suddenly change a thing with so many passengers, erm so many tonnes and so on. Secondly, erm we have a change from erm a so-called conservative president to a, a so-called socialist one. erm He's limited in lots of ways. First of all, he's got a general election coming up and we don't know what its result's going to be and it may disappoint him, he may find that the Parliament he has to work with is not going to be of the same cast of mind as himself. Secondly, erm think of the world of ‘Yes, Minister’, it must be so, or even more so in France perhaps, erm there's this huge French administration which has done things in much the same way through the decades and I suppose won't easily be changed from doing them. Thirdly, there are some settled lines of foreign policy which he has already said he's no intention of changing. erm I've been a little bit appalled by the levity with which some of our extreme, extremist politicians recently have spoken about abrogating this or that international obligation entered by the country if a general election returns them to power, as if a, a self-respecting state can do that in a state system. Well Monsieur Mitterrand has already made it clear that in some important respects I think particularly of defence, erm that, that's he not going to rush into any changes. So I, if there are going to be changes in French erm France's relations with its neighbours within the E E C, erm I don't see that they can be very quick, and I don't see that they can ultimately be all that large. I agree absolutely with what Geoffrey has said. I think one can point to another fact which is that Monsieur Mitterand comes from a political party erm which resembles that of his predecessor in being pro-European. Neither the erm of the two other major parties are, but both the Socialists and erm President erm ex-President Giscard's party erm were committed to the idea of European integration. So that in that sense the fundamental orientation is likely to change even less erm than one, than might have been the case if there'd been a more radical change. Obviously personal relationships erm enter into erm balances of power. erm Monsieur Mitterand's relationship with erm Chancellor Schmidt for example is certainly not yet anything like as close erm as Chancellor Schmidt's relationship with ex-President Giscard was, but they are both socialists, erm they do have a certain amount in common, and I see no reason why they shouldn't quite quickly build another erm relationship erm that would be quite similar to what happened before. On certain specific issues there may be changes of emphasis. Monsieur Mitterand has already said that he's going to seek to drive a harder bargain with Britain over fishing limits even than President Giscard was trying to do, and I think our negotiators must expect a rather tough time as far as fisheries are concerned. But those are very minor matters, and in the long term, I think, as Geoffrey has said, erm the changes will not be very large or very important. Why do we always argue about fishing rights and seem to have very little argument about oil? This is partly because fishing rights erm were written in erm to the, to the European Community system erm as part of in a sense the agricultural policy, erm because they were regarded as part of food policy, and it was thought that you must have, if you're going to have a common agricultural policy, and that was one of the important points erm of the negotiations for setting up the European Community, then a common fisheries policy went alongside with that. Whereas there isn't erm such clear provisions for a common energy policy erm and there aren't the same arrangements written into the agreement erm about for example sharing energy resources. At the time when the agreements were written, I don't think anybody foresaw the extent to, of North Sea oil. In so far as they did see a coming energy source they thought it would be atomic energy, and they wrote the treaty that's called the Euratom Treaty to cover this, but it didn't cover oil, and that is perhaps why it's been a much less contentious subject. It's been dealt with in a different way and not erm with an attempt to arrive at a common policy about it. Well thank you very much, Anne, Geoffrey and Norbert. Unfortunately, that's all that we've got time for today. If we've not answered your question in this programme, I shall be writing to you directly during the next few days. This is the end of our current series from the University. Hopefully we shall be back in the autumn with more news and views to share with you. But until then, good-bye. Hello. In our programmes in the current series about computers, we've talked about all sorts of applications, in business, in science and in industry. We've recognized that the computer revolution is truly with us and is here to stay. But what about using how to use them? Is it easy? Is it possible for the ordinary man in the street to become confident and competent in handling a computer system, whether it be in his office or in his home? Erin Sloman is Reader in Artificial Intelligence in the University, and has already contributed a programme earlier in this series. Erin, how easy is it for the ordinary person to learn how to compute? I think that at the moment it is not easy for ordinary people to learn to compute on most of the existing computing systems. There are several different reasons for this. But let me say that I think it's not in principle difficult. It is possible now to design computing systems which have much better languages than the ones that are readily available, and much more helpful programs on them, which enable the user to have a kind of dialogue in the way that you would with a person that you're trying to communicate with, whereas, at the moment, you can't have that sort of dialogue. You've got to be very precise, very clear, you've got to stick rigidly to rules, and these rules are quite unfamiliar to most people, and therefore it's not easy. erm Let me refer to an advertisement which erm some listeners may have seen in the Radio Times in the last couple of weeks. This advertises a new home computer and makes a claim which I regard as quite outrageous. It effectively says that these computers understand English. Now, that's just not true. The language that most of the home computers are used with is BASIC, and although there are a few words in that language which look like English words, like ‘If’ and ‘Let’and ‘Go to’and perhaps some others depending on the dialect of BASIC that you have, these words do not work in the way that ordinary English speakers are used to. Let me give one little example. If a mother says to a child, as he's going out, ‘If it rains, put your coat on,’ she doesn't mean, ‘Test now whether it is raining, and if it is, then put your coat on, if not, don't bother, and then forget about that instruction.’ What she means is that this instruction should be borne in mind if at any time it starts raining. Now, you can't say that kind of thing using ‘If’ in most computer languages, even though they do have an ‘If’. When that instruction is obeyed in a computing system, it usually means ‘Test right now.’ And this is one of many ways in which ordinary communication between people depends on our having a very powerful memory, having the ability to look out for situations that we've been warned about, and to take action in accordance with instructions that we've been given previously and have stored up. Whereas you can't do that sort of thing with erm most computer systems. There are all sorts of other ways in which it is hard to learn to use existing languages. Many features of these languages which derive from the historical accident that computers were first used mainly for manipulating numbers. So the languages have been derived for convenience of mathematical calculations and most people are not very good at mathematics, and they find the kind of symbolism used unnatural and unfriendly. There is no reason why computers shouldn't be natural and friendly, it's just that it takes a lot more memory in the computer to have all the complex rules of an ordinary language, and also it's much harder to write the programs that tell the computer how to understand a natural language. On the whole, people use language in a, in a rather sloppy form, it's ambiguous, they, they know what they mean, other people know what they mean but they put in all sorts of inferences by the way in which it's phrased or erm the way in which the words string together or past experience of the person. Now, to what extent could one move in that direction using a computer, which is a rather precise and definite sort of object that wants to know exactly what it has to do and how it has to do it? What you've called the sloppiness of English is actually part of its power. It means that, depending on the context, I can communicate something subtly different from what I intended before without us first having to go through the rigmarole of defining new terminology to extend the language. And this depends on our having very powerful and general rules in our minds for relating what is said to the broader context. Now, if we can do it, and it's not magic, then there must be some reasons we can do it, some rules we're following, and those rules can in principle be put into computers. There are in fact people trying to do this sort of thing. Last time we talked I mentioned work in artificial intelligence, and this is one of the areas in which work is being done. And right now there are computing systems in which, with which you can have a conversation, and you can use relatively sloppy English, and, like a person, if the computer doesn't know exactly what you mean, because your words are ambiguous, it will offer you several alternative interpretations erm if it has formed some, and then have a dialogue with you about which one you meant. Alternatively it'll ask you to rephrase it in some other way. Now, designing systems like that requires computers with big memories, much, much bigger than the ones that you can buy in your shop round the corner at the moment, and the programs are quite complicated, it's quite difficult to do this sort of thing, but in principle there's no reason why it shouldn't happen, and that would make computers much easier to learn to use. You talked a lot about computers being more friendly in the future than in the past. What did you have in mind particularly? Well, there are a variety of different aspects of friendliness. One I've already mentioned, namely, if you type something that the computer doesn't understand, it shouldn't just say, ‘I don't understand, Error number three hundred and twenty-two’, or something like that. It should make some effort to understand. It should try to work out what sort of thing you were trying to say, and maybe be able to work out in, in a general way what you mean, but just need one extra piece of information to disambiguate what you'd said. That would be a kind of friendliness. But there are other kinds of friendliness too. For instance, another very common language that people use is PASCAL, there's a growing, almost a cult in favour of it. Now, in some ways it is much better than BASIC. It is a more powerful language. It's easier to express complex ideas in PASCAL. But it is very unfriendly in a way which erm has to do with the type of interaction you've got to have. In BASIC you can type in an instruction and it gets obeyed immediately. With PASCAL, you have to prepare a whole program, and then you have to tell the computer to digest it, that's called ‘compiling it’, and then possibly it has to link in with other programs, and then you can run the program. And this is quite a lengthy procedure, and you might have made mistakes at all sorts of different point. A friendly system is one where as you talk you are being understood, and you can get some sort of response. There are other kinds of friendliness too. For instance, at Sussex University we have developed a system called Pop Eleven, which, like BASIC, is fully interactive, like PASCAL, has structures which enable you to do complex things. But it also has built in a Help facility, teaching aids, so that if at some point in the middle of developing your program you forget something, you can ask the system erm to tell you for instance how to use one of its facilities, and you can get onto the screen some information about that, and then carry on where you were, and you can switch easily between different modes. We've attempted to design a system which is friendly in that it takes account of the different needs that a person will have at different times while trying to communicate with a computer. Well these are just some of the ways in which computers can be made more friendly. Of course at the moment they're very unfriendly in that you have to learn to type. erm In principle it should be possible to be able to speak into a microphone, or to write on a pad, with a pencil, and the computer would be connected to the microphone or the pad and would take in and interpret what you've done, without having to learn this rather clumsy method of putting things in one letter at a time. At the moment, you can get adaptors for computers to cope with some form of speech or at least a limited range of verbal instructions erm and in fact Apple computers and others have little packages which allow about thirty well-defined verbal instructions to, to go in. Presumably that's just the tip of the iceberg. Yes. In principle, though I think it's very difficult, as I understand it right now, you've got to go through a rather unfriendly session of training the computer to respond to your voice, and if you say something in a slightly different way later on it may not recognize it as the word that you had previously trained it on. But, as you say, this is the tip of the iceberg. Things are moving and I'm hopeful that these problems will be solved. I've just been up to the Wembley exhibition of word processor, and one of the things I noticed there was the increasing number of processors and packages which I think you would describe as friendly or at least semi-friendly to, to help people. Packages which checked your spelling, for example, in something you've put on and very politely suggested that you may or may not have got a word quite correctly spelt that you had intended perhaps spelt one way, it came out as another way, and there must be an awful lot of work going on in this area. Yes, that is an important aspect of friendliness. People often, in communicating with one another, say something slightly different from what they intended to say, and the other person will make allowances, using the context. And there are these spelling-corrector programs, which will in many cases know what you meant, even though you have erm made a mistake. They have to have a lot of rules built in. For instance erm if you're communicating via a typewriter, there are various common mistakes which can arise out of the fact that two keys are close together, and so you've hit one key when you meant the other, and knowing that can help the computer to work out what you intended. And that illustrates what I meant by saying that you need quite complex systems. There are many such little rules that are needed in order to have a good spelling corrector, that will not make some correction that is not the one you intended. At the moment, as far as I know, there is on the market no computer that really can have a large memory and is also within the price range for the ordinary primary school or home, but if these new falling prices of memory do come as quickly as some people are predicting, then that could make a huge difference. What I'm worried about at the moment is that large numbers of people are buying computers, especially some of the cheaper ones, and my prediction is that after a few weeks, they get put into cupboards, and aren't used, because they are so unfriendly, so hard to use, whereas in principle computers could be very powerful and useful devices in the home. The new packages you mentioned will certainly help. And are you confident that the friendly brand of computer is coming fairly soon, or is there resistance to it amongst the professionals? There is some professional resistance, in the sense that people who've done a lot of work on programming get used to certain sorts of languages, and if you make proposals about teaching some new way of dealing with computers, they throw up their hands in horror, and object that this is going to be inefficient, or it's not going to prepare people adequately for what goes on in industry, or whatever. Now, it may well be, that these objections will just be overridden by the market. If the new, friendlier systems do come onto the market, and if they're bought as presents and so on, and they get into the homes and they get into the schools, then people will just learn to use them, and it's the existing professionals who may have to change their habits to accommodate. But that's optimistic. I think there, there is a lot of inertia in the system, a lot of resistance, especially if people have learnt something complex and put a lot of effort into it, and have written lots of programs using the existing languages. They're very reluctant to change. I've experienced that myself, so I have some sympathy for that reaction. Thank you very much, Erin. That's all that we have time for today. Next week the series finishes with a panel discussion about the ways in which society of the future will be affected by the computer revolution. Incidentally, those listeners who are involved in management, and who are wondering whether microprocessors could contribute to their business, might like to know that there's a one-day seminar going to be run at the University on June the twenty-ninth on this subject. The seminar is called ‘Product Enhancement Using New Technology’, and as I understand it, the aim of the seminar is to give technical and non-technical managers a clearer understanding of what microprocessors can and can't do. If you would like further details, contact Sandra Jones, in Engineering and Applied Sciences at the University, or get in touch with me, and I will pass on your enquiry. Until next week then, good-bye. Good evening from the University of Sussex. Tonight we're going to take a look at two aspects of education and I have with me Stephen Ball, who's been carrying out research into the different between streamed and mixed ability classes in comprehensive schools, and Sandy Grassy, who co-ordinates the many links between the science side of the university and schools. Stephen, let's start with you. Tell me about your findings. Well what this has involved me in has been a long study of a single school. I spent two and a half years working with a single comprehensive school looking at the change in that school from a system of streamed teaching to a system of mixed ability teaching. Because of the way that erm the school changed over from having a system of streaming in its first three years, to a system where mixed ability was introduced year by year from the first to the third year, I was able to follow two groups of pupils through the school — one lot of pupils in their streamed classes, and then another lot following them on in their mixed ability classes — and try and discover something about the differences in their experience of school in the two different modes, in the streamed and in the mixed ability classes. What were your general conclusions? I think the general point would be really a favourable impression of mixed ability teaching. There's a lot of worry, I know, among parents and also advisers, Local Authority people, about mixed ability teaching, about its impact on standards. I think the one clear thing to come out from my study is that erm with very careful preparation and with adequate thought about teaching methods that a school can successfully go over to mixed ability teaching without any necessary impact on the standards of performance of the pupils, and this has really been justified recently in the O level results of pupils who have now been through the mixed ability system and finished their O levels in the school. And they've performed well — in some areas better than the streamed pupils did previously. What about the brighter children? Don't they suffer? Again, this is certainly a worry that is often talked about in terms of mixed ability teaching. The school was aware of this and specifically created a post of responsibility for the brighter child and gave this to a senior member of the staff, and that member of the staff was responsible for looking at the effects of mixed ability teaching on specifically identified brighter pupils, and I don't think the school would say that erm they totally solve the problem of what to do with the brighter children, but I think it's a problem which exists even in streamed classes because the sort of pupil we're talking about are pupils who are exceptional in their own right. We're not talking about whole groups of pupils who previously have been in top streams, we're talking about half a dozen, ten individuals in any one year group and they are equally as difficult to deal with in the streamed situation. And in some ways mixed ability, with its orientation towards individual approaches to learning, provides the possibility of focusing more on those children more than even was possible in the streamed situation. So I think the school is in the position of wanting to think more about the problem of the brighter child, but they certainly were not unaware of it and were attempting to deal with it. Isn't your conclusion based on rather a small sample just being two classes from one single school? That's right, although the examination results were taken for each cohort. I looked at one, well in fact two classes in each year group in detail, because I really wanted to focus very closely on how the pupils experience the school in the different modes of erm grouping. What has happened previously in a lot of educational research is that large samples have been taken. We know something numerically about different systems, but we know little about them experientially, we know little about what it feels like, what the impact is upon individuals in the two different systems, and I really wanted to swing to the other type of research and look in more detail at how different pupils would respond to the streamed situation, not simply in terms of their performance measured in tests, but in terms of their attitudes to school, their attitudes to their life outside of school, their involvement in erm sub-cultural groups or in youth clubs, this kind of thing. So it really necessitated small samples of pupils who I got to know fairly well, rather than a large sample. Did the children know that they were being studied, and did the teachers know that they were taking part in such an experiment? Yes, they knew my role in the school, both the teachers and the pupils. I think obviously the younger pupils didn't grasp it very clearly. I normally explain to them that I was writing a book about the school and they certainly understood that. The teachers were in on my research from the beginning, erm I originally gained the co-operation of the headmaster — he allowed me to come into the school — and then I found the teachers enormously co-operative, in fact, far more cooperative than I had a really had a right to expect. They would ask me into their classes to watch them teach; they gave me time for interviews; they allowed me into staff meetings and departmental meetings and I at various points in my research I erm attempted to feed back to them some of the material that I was coming up with, and we would have meetings to discuss this and I would erm use those meetings then to refine my ideas. From the viewpoint of this being and objective experiment, I would be a little bit worried about everyone knowing the nature of the experiment you had in mind, because, as you probably know, in industrial studies there's a well-known effect, I think it's called the Hawthorn effect, which merely by studying a group of people you change their behaviour and their output, simply because they know that you're taking an interest in them and they've got some idea of your expectations. Are you sure this didn't happen in your study? Well I was certainly aware of this. I think it is adequately dealt with as problem because of the really the length and the depth of my involvement with the school. I was there, as I said, for two and a half years, so it would have been difficult for the teachers to respond to my presence in an artificial way because I was there for such a long time. Really I think I am able to demonstrate in the written account of the research that I am presenting a very real account of their teaching and their problems, as well as their successes. erm sometimes I was able to observe lessons that went wrong and were very difficult for the teachers, as well as the lessons that were successful, so I don't really think it emerged as problem at the end. So you're really in favour of mixed ability teaching in comprehensive schools? I would be, yes. I think the advantages outweigh the disadvantages. I mean perhaps the point I haven't brought out, which was another enormous effect from the mixed ability teaching, or the mixed ability grouping, was the improvement in the pupils erm behaviour. One of the problems with the streamed situation was that those pupils who found themselves in the bottom streams, who found that they were perhaps not regarded so highly, or so positively by their teachers, tended to respond with misbehaviour in their classes with occasionally vandalism around the school and a generally a negative attitude towards the school and their teachers in general. And the immediate effect of the mixed ability grouping was to eradicate behavioural problems of that kind almost entirely. There were no longer groups of pupils in any one class who were against the school and were erm wanting to disrupt the teaching of their erm of their teachers, and really problems were reduced to individuals in teach class, one or two pupils, which erm didn't present the same massive problem to teachers as the bottom streamed groups had done previously. So this was a very positive outcome which the teachers, not unexpectedly, were very pleased about, this improvement in the behaviour of pupils. Does it require a special sort of teacher, one with particular gifts, to do this satisfactorily? I think it makes a lot of demands upon the teacher. It's not something that is done easily or lightly. Some of the newly qualified teachers, perhaps, found some difficulties initially in coping with the wide range of abilities the mixed ability classes presented them with, and in some ways the school was not well provided with in-service support for mixed ability teaching and had to do a lot of their own work in terms of the appropriate methods to choose, the appropriate resources, the appropriate materials to develop. So not every teacher was one hundred per cent successful with mixed ability teaching, but I don't think one can ever expect that with a new method and I think now that the system has been running for a number of years in the school that it's possible for each department to support new members of staff and introduce them to the appropriate methods and approaches to mixed ability classes. What proportion of comprehensive schools now have mixed ability teaching? Well it's a difficult question to ask in a answer in a way because, because the pattern of grouping differs enormously from school to school. There are still very few schools that have mixed ability groups in all of their first three years, but more and more school are introducing some mixed ability group in their first three years, and about thirty per cent have mixed ability grouping in their first year now. Something around fifteen per cent have mixed ability in the first three years. Beyond that there are very few. When the C S Es/O Levels arrive at the beginning of the fourth year most schools decide to separate out their pupils into different groups, although in the school I was studying in and in one or two other schools, it's possible to parallel C S E examinations with the existing O Level examinations and therefore to continue to teach the pupils in mixed ability groups, and that happened in English in the school I was studying, and in other schools it has happened in other subjects. Presumably the case for streaming gets stronger as you go higher up in a school? Certainly the constraints of examinations make it more and more difficult to cope with the range of abilities in the mixed ability class. I think this hits different subjects in different ways. It happens perhaps sooner in the languages and in science than it does, say, in History or English or geography, and certainly language teachers find much more difficulty in teaching mixed ability classes. And one tends to find that languages — French/German — are the first to abandon mixed ability, usually in the second year, sometimes the third year of a comprehensive school. Is it government policy to move in the direction of mixed ability classes? I don't think one could say policy, no. erm I think the move in this direction is a drift really. There's been no guidance from the government, but they don't certainly they certainly don't seem to be against mixed ability teaching. There's been a recent H M Is report, which has asked some questions about mixed ability teaching and expressed some worries about those teachers who perhaps don't have the adequate support and preparation for mixed ability teaching, but they're certainly not against it, or the H M Is are certainly not against mixed ability teaching. What research in this area needs to be done now? Well I think really what one must look for now is more detailed research on what actually goes on in mixed ability classrooms. Really we know still know very little about what teachers actually do in the classroom, and it's all very well standing back in university and saying teachers should do this and should do that, but in order to be able to offer guidance I think we really need to do more research in mixed ability classrooms to discover how teachers are at the moment dealing with the situation and where we might offer them more support, and that's the direction I'd like to see research go in, rather than more erm of the grandiose large-scale quantitative studies, which collect lots of figures and statistics — I'd like to see a lot more studies in actual classrooms looking at actual teachers teaching. erm looking at what they do and how we can improve that. Do you have any plans yourself for more research in this area? Well I hope to look more at mixed ability teaching. Really it's a problem of erm time and resources. The difficulties are that one has to spend a lot of time sitting in the classroom working with the teacher, or observing the teacher, and it's difficult to find that time when one is teaching at university. So often the push is in the opposite direction to doing research which doesn't involve one in long-term contact with the schools, and this of course is one of the reasons why this type of research isn't so often done, but I hope to do some more work in classrooms, yes. One last question. How does being in a mixed ability class affect the social development of children? Well that was of the interesting things to come out of the study, erm something which was totally unexpected as far as I was concerned, and that was it seemed that the pupils in the mixed ability classes developed more slowly socially than the pupils in the streamed classes. This was manifested in a number of ways, particularly in that pupils still in their second year in the mixed ability classes would be talking about playing with their friends and generally their attitudes towards the teenage culture of pop music and magazines and fashions and discotheques didn't seem to develop so quickly as it had in the streamed situation, and I think really this comes from the problem of those pupils in the streamed situation — in the bottom streams in particular— who found that they wanted alternatives to school when they were in an inferior position in the school. They were devalued, if you like, by finding themselves in the bottom streams and so they tended to look for out of school things, alternatives to school, from which to gain their satisfactions, and they would look to the pop media, to fashion, to football, to these kinds of things. And in the mixed ability situation this certainly did not happen in the same way. So the children, in a sense, remained children longer in the mixed ability situation, and again this was something that the teachers found very pleasing in that the pupils were remaining erm involved in the school much more and much longer in the mixed ability situation. Sandy, you have the rather impressive title of Coordinator of Educational Activities for the Science Area. What sort of activities are these? Could you give me an example? Well as example of the kind of thing that we've just finished doing is we've run a course for local school teachers from East and West Sussex on using electronics in schools. We wanted very much erm to help teachers to work from circuit diagrams and to build the electronics, and then, as we said, at least to worry about why it didn't work and try several tests before giving up completely. We ran this kind of course by asking the teachers at the beginning of the course to select some device they'd like to make, that they'd seen the circuit of in a in a school magazine school science review magazine, and then build that. We would teach the electronics necessary to devise the tests and how it worked and things like that, and sure enough by the end of the time some of them had built devices, well all sorts of devices. Yes. Is this done during the evenings, or during holidays, or weekends? This is done on Saturdays and Wednesday evenings — all day Saturday and a Wednesday evening, on a fortnightly basis. And it's open to any teacher, any science teacher, to apply to come on this course? Any science teacher to apply to come on the course. That sounds a very good scheme. What about erm the chemistry area, the School of Molecular Sciences, do they do similar things? The way that they get involved is that they try to back up some of the school teaching in the sixth form chemistry. They take groups of school children in to look at experiments and techniques that are far too complicated perhaps, expensive perhaps, or even dangerous, to run in a school — like X-ray crystallography and infra-red spectrometry. A group of children will come in from a school, with their sixth form science teacher, and go round the chemistry laboratories for an afternoon looking at techniques like this. Yes. Are they actually allowed to operate the machinery, or No, this is they can not get their hands on it. They But they see it working? They see it working and often they are given a print out of the results at the end of a spectrum or something like that that they can take back to the school with them and analyze. Yes. This is for sixth formers and teachers. Do you do anything for children lower down in the school? Yes, we do. We offer lecture service erm for children at a lower level in the school. This is quite important because when a child in the third form the kids are making up their mind whether to do science or not. They know about science from television and from their school teacher, and any other source of information to them is really beneficial to let them make a sensible decision. For instance, we offer topics like ‘How small a thing can you see?’ or ‘Exploring the solar system’, or ‘How small can you make things?’. These are lectures that are pitched directly at their level erm with the knowledge that they have round about the third year in schools, so that they can see some of the problems that physics tackles. We have, for instance, one lecture on how you tell how Napoleon died. There's a technique in nuclear physics, called neutron activation, which allows you to measure quantities of trace very small quantities of particular elements in materials and it's been applied to looking at the concentration of arsenic in Napoleon's hair, and you find that there are particular periods in his life when he got dosed with arsenic_ one's not quite sure how — and at those particular times he was erm very ill; it correlates very well with the historical evidence. Of course all of this took place on St Helena, when one cynically feels that the British would rather get rid of Napoleon. This kind of erm usage of nuclear physics is often of a lot of interest and understandable to a child in the third form. Supposing a school wanted a talk on a particular topic, could they just write in and erm contact you and ask you whether you could provide a lecturer on that subject? Oh yes. We certainly feel that this is a possibility. In fact, we would rather do it that way. To start the exchange we have to suggest a list of possible topics, but we also feel confident that we could should be able to lecture on any topic, any scientific topic, to, for instance, third form children certainly. Tell me about the one day schools for school teachers that you run. The one day schools that we run for school teachers in the South East of England, a larger catchment area than the East and West Sussex — in fact it goes up towards London and it includes London — it goes out towards Kent and Portsmouth. These are lectures lecture courses which happen on one day and which are really designed to cover something of interest to sixth form science teachers, usually sixth form physics teachers. For instance, plasma physics, space research, superconductivity, astronomy, topics like that. erm the format for these is one of four lectures, in which we revise in the first lecture ideas that are round about sixth form level and then in two lectures following that we take the teacher through, very quickly, the kind of coverage that we give to the topic in the university. And then at the end we will run a single lecture, a kind of gee whizz lecture, something that shows the applications of the ideas we've been working on during the day to some particularly unusual branch of physics. You haven't actually mentioned biologists or applied scientists. Are they involved in these schemes at all? The biologists and applied scientists are involved in the schemes in that they also are part of the resource that one would consider in the university to give talks to school children. The biologists and the applied scientists have done this, have offered lectures to school children, mostly in response to requests that have come in to them for specific lectures. They don't offer erm a list of lectures at the moment. Thank you. And the activities you describe are separate from those laid on, for example, by the British Association for Young Scientists, which also hold meetings Oh yes. They are definitely separate. Those are large one day meetings for school children at fourth form level or so. These are completely separate from them. And I believe there are also courses laid on erm in the educational development building for teachers by the educational area? Yes, these are for the in-service B Ed. and various other courses like that, yes, and some of them have a scientific aspect to them and we're involved in those as well. Thank you Sandy and Stephen. Next week is the last programme in this series. We shall be taking a look at the Media Services Unit at the university that has provided the technical services for producing these programmes, and also we shall be talking about the response to the programmes themselves. Until next week, then. Goodnight. Hello. This is the second in two programmes in which I talk to Professor Nuttall about Shakespeare and his plays. I find it amazing that Shakespeare's still as popular as ever, and I started by asking Tony why this was the case. Why, after all these years, people still seem to be able to find something new to say about him. Speaking as an old university hack who's been teaching courses in this place since nineteen sixty two, the Shakespeare course is the one thing which is utterly and deeply different every time I teach it. Trying to stop short of bardolotry, but it really is astonishing. I get the feeling that I begin to know my way around, to know at least most of the chess moves of it. With Shakespeare almost every time that I read more than forty lines, I see something I'd never seen before, which is demonstrably there. erm he does seem to me to be me the best — I mean all this common opinion is true — he is a writer of indefinite richness and it is amazing, but the case. I've nothing to add really . One does, quite genuinely find more all the time. Do you think it was the case that when Shakespeare was actually writing these plays he had any real concept of the richness of his producing, or was this all superstructure which has been put there by various university professors since? Well I think it's not a superstructure that's been put there because, I mean, for example when you get a particular idea there are often other questions you can ask to check whether it's really present, to see whether the thing is alluded to at the appropriate point later in the plot and that sort of thing. And erm again and again you find that it is, that the thing you half suspected is mentioned by a character later, and when I find that I'm strongly inclined to suppose that Shakespeare has put it there. The question whether he was conscious of all these layers when writing seems to me unanswerable. I have no doubt that he was very, very intelligent in the ordinary meaning of the word. For example I think he probably had a very high I Q for what that's worth. Ever since Ben Jonson people have thought of him piping native woodnotes wild and not being terribly educated. Education isn't the same thing as intelligence. He had lot of intelligence and not all that much education. I think he was conscious of a great deal probably, but at the same time many writers will tell you that they find when they've finished a poem or a play things in it, demonstrably in it, systematically and intelligently present with real relations, which they don't remember writing. This is why you often get writers saying ‘Don't ask me, look again at the poem’ or ‘Trust the tale, not the teller’. And the marvellous thing in Plato of Socrates, when he'd been told by the Delphic Oracle that he was the wisest of men, he started off like a sort of good poperian scientist trying to falsify this and he went round finding people wiser than himself and he went to various people and they weren't any wiser, and then he thought ‘Oh, the poets, they're marvellous people, they know so much’, and he went to them and he found that the hadn't a clue what they'd written. And he concluded, quite soberly, that they must have been visited by muse. It seems to me a very reasonable conclusion. I mean you can re-dress it up in Freudian terms and say their unconscious did it, which is really a very similar thing to say. I mean the unconscious becomes a sort of god in that case. erm so what I'm saying is my guess is, and it's no more than that, that Shakespeare was probably conscious of a lot of it, but there's also probably an area that came from a very rich and active unconscious. But all that's just guessing, I mean we've no way of testing it. To what extent do you think that the creation of all these, as it were, structures on Shakespeare is a useful exercise, or do you think it's a little bit like sort of medieval philosophy and taking a little a long, long way? Well it's like medieval philosophy in that it's not utilitarian. To me the justification really depends on the fact that I view Shakespeare as a terminal good. That is to say I think that a world without Shakespeare in it would be a world substantially impoverished. I think Shakespeare is a good complex thing in the universe. That I take as a sort of axiom, as given to start with, in this argument. Then it follows from that that understanding Shakespeare and keeping the understanding of Shakespeare alive is also a good because if, for example, this great, rich and wonderful thing were simply there in the world and no-one could see him and no-one could understand him, and no-one was any longer thinking or talking about him, that also would be a secondary impoverishment. And erm I don't feel any shame, therefore, about going on with it. Really what I was saying is I think probably came over, but I will rephrase it. I'm sorry . There's a sense to which, to put it in current terms Yes. when I say ‘I am cold’ I may just mean I am cold and it may not be a statement about my view of myself with regard to society and my particular stage of middle age crisis and so on and so forth, although, you know, given a certain number of intelligent people they could no doubt build an enormous emphasis on Yes, well the simple straightforward statement ‘I am cold’ and I just wondered whether, you know, extrapolating backwards whether we're doing the same disservice to Shakespeare. You're talking to the wrong man on this. I'm not in sympathy with you, you see. You're putting the point about over-reading Shakespeare. You'd find lots of academics erm at the Shakespeare Conference in Stratford who would agree with you that there is far too much over-reading of Shakespeare. I tend to think it's rather hard to over-read Shakespeare, simply because of the experience of finding that my reading fell short on many occasions. It is very easy to read him wrong and to make mistakes, and there are, of course, occasions when he does offer a brutal simplicity, which it would be ridiculous to try and develop. I myself, for example, tend to be an old-fashioned Coleridge and psychologistic critic, you know, I look for motives in Shakespearean characters, in ways which Elsie Knights told us we shouldn't do, and I do this because I think Shakespeare encourages us to make inferences and to think about them in that way. However, if you take characters like Lysander and Demetrius in A Midsummer-Night's Dream, it's obvious , even to me, that it would be ridiculous to try and look for complex psychology and motivation in them, you know. There are cases where you can over-read, sure, but by and large over-reading is not the main vice of Shakespearean criticism. If anything, we went the other way after erm how many children had Lady Macbeth, and we under-read. We decided that Shakespeare's plays were mere patterns of imagery, without human beings in them, and by a strange act of critical abnegation, deliberately blinded ourselves to all sorts of psychological insights, which the Victorians had been able to see and are now being seen again. One of your major interests has been that of the relationship of allegory to Yes. Shakespearean plays of one kind and another. Could you tell me a little bit about that? Well, my interest in allegory really began at quite a different point. I was initially troubled by a philosophical problem. Can I explain that, or try to ? Yes. I was struck by the fact that in one of the dialogues of Plato, Plato gets very worried about the notion of beauty, because he thinks beauty is something which is beautiful. He also thinks beauty is that in virtue of which we call beautiful things beautiful. Now if the beautiful things are beautiful, and if beauty itself is beautiful, what of the beauty in respect of which both beauty and the beautiful things are beautiful? Is that also beautiful? Sorry, this is pretty mind-blowing, but he has got himself into difficulties because he things that beauty is not, so to speak, a logical construction that allows us to talk about particular objects in the world, he thinks it is itself a sort of spiritual thing. He thinks it is itself something beautiful that sort of swims down into our world and is incarnated in particular objects, and then he wonders about that because his own way of forming universals means that he'd have to do it all again and again and again in an infinite regress, so he has a problem, basically, about calling beauty itself beautiful. Now meanwhile — not meanwhile, but quite a lot later — in early medieval allegory, you find that the allegorical poet has a quite ordinary technical problem when he's writing about things like mercy and cruelty. He wants to show the relation of mercy and cruelty and of course they conflict, so he writes a poem in which there's a battle and there's a character called Cruelty, who comes and fights against a character called Mercy. Now Cruelty is going to be called as cruel because that's the way allegorical poetry works. Mercy is going to be shown as merciful, so as soon as they start to fight Mercy starts trying to forgive Cruelty and Cruelty easily wins. Mercy wants to say, of course, that Cruelty in this god-governed universe is going to be defeated by Mercy, so he's got a technical problem. His technical problem again arises basically from the fact that he calls Cruelty cruel. Most modern philosophers would say it was nonsense to say that Cruelty was cruel and only call people cruel or particular things. So there they both are, Plato with a metaphysical problem, the poet with a technical problem. Because of their habit of referring to universals with adjectives derived from the universal, calling Beauty beautiful, calling Cruelty cruel. When I looked at all this stuff, it came to me that it was very interesting that they thought of Beauty as beautiful and Cruelty as cruel. It meant, in fact, that they were thinking of abstractions in quite a different way from the way we think of them. erm the technical word for this is that for them universals are self-predicating — that sounds very and intelligible. It means in effect that they had a quasi-sensuous way of seeing abstractions. They saw abstractions as in some warm and coloured, and the sort of things to which you could appropriately apply quite vivid adjectives. Now that in turns means that the poetry of the period, and the allegorical poetry of the period especially, is not as F R Levis would probably have assumed, to be divided into cold intellectual abstractions and warm sensuous particulars, there is a sense in which the very abstractions have a sensuous property, perhaps through a philosophical mistake, but nevertheless it was the way their minds were build. You can see their minds were build that way because of the problems they get into both philosophically and technically. Therefore, I decided that I had the clue to something that had long baffled me, that whereas Levis's strict division of the world into sensuous particulars and more intellectual abstractions — I hope I'm being fair to him, I'm caricaturing and shortening _ whereas this was applicable to the modern period, it probably wasn't to the period I decided, I think, roughly before the eighteenth century, and with this in mind I then turned to the mysterious last plays of Shakespeare that we've been talking about earlier and tried to see whether the sense one gets in those plays of love, for example, not as simply a logical construction for talking about the way people behave in relation to each other , but as some kind of spiritual entity existing prior to the human subjects in the play, whether that sense could be in some degree confirmed and explained by an investigation of the general use of universals in the period and earlier. This approach could be explored with other sorts of literature. Yes, indeed. The bible, for example, I would have thought was a Yes, it could. One thing that I had to say, frankly, at the beginning of my book on allegory was that The Tempest was not the necessary base of that book. It was, in fact, just a peculiarly rich and extended example, and the kind of thing I was doing was in principle applicable to great numbers of texts. That was why, when you first asked me about this, I turned the whole question round and said ‘You have to begin from the philosophical problem’, but indeed it could be applied in many places. Let me pick up a few points which occur to me arising out of what you've just been saying. First of all beauty, which is a word which is used by all sorts of philosophers. I remember erm wasn't it Eyre that made great mileage of saying that just because there's a word for beauty doesn't mean to say that there's such a thing as beauty. Yes, well Eyre there stands as a sort of a paradigmatic modern philosopher, and when I was saying earlier that it was just a logical construction to help you to talk about particular things, and I think Eyre would go along with that. He is in fact opposing himself to the view that I was trying to get out of the older writers, namely that beauty is the name of some sort of spiritual being. As a non-philosopher I always used to find that slightly depressing statement that of Eyre's about beauty, and it seemed to me that one could immediately follow that by saying just because there's a word for it maybe you have it because you like it and you want to use it and isn't that self-validating in a sense . Well, erm it may not be quite as depressing as you think. Someone who says there is not actual entity separate from the world called beauty could still be a chap who believed that the word beautiful had a vivid and important use. He would simply say it refers to all those aspects of things which make them beautiful considered in some, and that, if you think of that as a sort of mental object for a moment, is a very rich one. erm it doesn't, for example, necessarily imply that statements about beauty are merely subjective, or are delusory or are soft headed, or maybe that Eyre would want to say that on another occasion . I mean Eyre can be very depressing, you know, I'd go along with that all the way. That's all that we have time for today. Until next week then, goodbye. Good evening from the University of Sussex. Tonight we're going to take a look at the work of the Institute of Development Studies, which is based at the university. This is a national centre concerned with Third World development and with the relationships between rich and poor countries. To tell us about their work I have with me the Director, Richard Jolly, two of the permanent fellows of the Institute, Dudley Sears and Carlos Fortin, and a visiting fellow Beana Aguwa. Beana let me start by asking you what is the Institute of Development Studies. The Institute is a national institute concerned with research and teaching in the area of the development studies. We were founded in nineteen sixty six. We grew very rapidly until the last five years or so, since when we've levelled off in size, but erm the range of our activities in various countries abroad and indeed in Britain, has continued to grow. What do you actually mean by development? Well if you asked me that ten or fifteen years ago I think I could have given a rather easy answer erm namely that development studies was concerned with the problems of countries in Africa, Asia and Latin America, and how they could erm accelerate their economic, social and political development to provide better living standards for all their population. So do you deal only with under-developed countries? Well that's why I said ten or fifteen years ago it would have been easy to give an answer. Increasingly, as we've been studying the problems of developing countries, two major changes have been occurring; one in our own thinking that in many ways problems of developing countries are linked in extricably with things that are going on in Britain or Europe or other parts of the so-called industrial world, and secondly that as we've been studying developing countries, we've been finding that more and more problems in Britain and other industrial countries begin to look like some of the same problems that we've been used to in developing countries. Indeed, people begin to talk about under-developed Britain, or under-developing Britain, so that we now don't see this sharp division between British problems as a developed country, and developing countries' problems in Zambia, or Chile, or wherever, or India. Rather we see they are related sets of problems, needing in part national solutions and in part international changes. Do you do most of your work by travelling overseas, or is it done at Sussex? There's a great range really. We have some erm members of staff who are permanently working in different countries at any one time — probably five/six people from the Institute. During any year most staff members of the Institute will spend a few weeks, if not two or three months, in erm some developing country, or perhaps several, and of course we're also heavily involved in international agencies. But we ourselves see a close link between this operational experience and involvement and the research work which, for the most part, does take place erm here in Sussex. Carlos, you're in charge of the Study Programme. What does that involved? Well the Institute has a large teaching study and training programme, which is essentially centered around what we call a study seminar. We have about seven or eight of those every year. They bring together some twenty to twenty-five people, mostly from Third World countries, but including some aid administrators from Britain and other developed countries, and they stay together for between four and six weeks, working together in a wide range of different topics and with various objectives. We have some that are very specific, in the sense that they are intended to provide certain particular skills or techniques. For instance at the moment we are running one on statistical techniques for Third World officials. Other are much broader. The one before this one, co-incidentally, was a very broad one, which was an attempt at assessing the results of Five, which of course took place in Manila in May/June, and right after that, with the participation of some of the people who had been, in Five we tried to assess what impact, if any, their conference is going to make for the future of the world economic system. So we have a wide range of them. The purpose is not to is not to train in the sense of imparting knowledge to people who don't have it, but rather to put whatever experience they have into context, on which we can have something to contribute. Are these study programmes open to people from any country? That's right. So individuals, say, from Russia or Communist Block countries could come if they wished to? They certainly could. The study programme is essentially erm addressed towards erm Third World countries, and it is supported by British technical assistance, and therefore a number of the participants, a large number, are funded by technical assistance funds. Those of course would have to qualify according to the rules of technical assistance and British aid, but in principle the study seminars are certainly open and we normally have people from countries other than the Third World ones. Do you run programmes similar to that overseas,Beana , or just at Sussex? Well we're the study seminars can take place either at Sussex or overseas, and in fact our present policy is to try and increase the number that actually take place in the Third World, because we feel that that has a number of advantages. How do you know whether they are successful or not? That's a very big question, and in fact we're trying now to with the co-operation of the British Counsel, who act as a recruiting agent for our purposes, erm to conduct a survey, a sort of customer survey, of the kind of acceptance our problem has had. We've just conducted a very primary review, and we found that the interest and the demand for these seminars has been pretty constant since at least the early seventies, therefore we feel that we are we seem to be fulfilling a need of Third World governments and agencies. Not only governmental, but private and voluntary agencies too. In addition, a number of people who have gone through our study seminars keep in touch with us and tell us that they are using some of the things they've learned here to be exposed here for their own work, but it's very difficult to tell. I mean we hope we're doing the right thing, and as I say the response we're getting seems to indicate that, but we have not erm followed through each of we have a large number of participants every year, you see, in the order of about erm a hundred and fifty each year, so very difficult for you to try and follow through the fate of each of them. Thank you. Dudley, you've been involved with the Institute right from the beginning, since it was founded, and you're very heavily involved in its research programme. I wonder if you could give us some idea of the sort of topics that people are engaged in? There's a very wide range of erm topics. Most of the are concerned with what helps or does not help development overseas in the way of local policies. For example in the health field there's been quite a lot of research at the Institute and, of course in the field, on the effects of different kinds of health policies. Should a government, which doesn't have much in the way of financial resources and technical resources, should it go for erm a big teaching hospital in the capital, for example, or should it put its priorities rather on the rural area, on smaller scale, more preventive medicine? That sort of choice is erm open to governments and erm research can throw some light on the implications of one route or another. Other fields that we've been working on particularly are the educational field and the content and scale of education, it's link with the unemployment problem and it would take too long really to list the whole range. I could perhaps mention titles only: technology, choice of technology and the link with the again the unemployment problem; fields like rural development planning and erm the associated questions of rural industrialization of the balance between town and country, of migration from the country to the town and it's implications for both country and town. And of course another erm field is the effect of erm British and other rich country policies in aid and trade on countries overseas and what sort of policies are helpful to development — in a broad sense, not just to economic growth, but to social, political, as well as economic development of erm of overseas countries. I know you've just recently come back from Uganda. Are the economic prospects for Uganda quite bright? Well that is a very difficult one for anybody who erm has to try and sort out the ideological, tribal, personal rivalries in Uganda and to answer the question of whether these are going to get in the way of some sort of erm coherent government policy and political stability. Perhaps I should just say a word about that that operation since you've raised it, because it is one type of job that we do, that is taking part in a rather large group, in this case sponsored by the Commonwealth Secretariat at the request of the government of Uganda after the fall of erm of Amin, to assess the rehabilitation needs of the country and to suggest what policies should be priority policies for their point of view and what contribution could be made by other countries through aid and erm other ways of technical assistance and fellowships for training and so forth, to help in this rehabilitation. Do you think that the prospects of of erm economic erm future for Uganda are bright? Is it a rich country in resources? They have, yes, they have potentially erm they have potentially the natural resources for quite erm a lot of development. erm potentially, in a rich soil, in a wide range of erm crops, of course, coffee, cotton, tea, especially have been export earners in the past, but also they produce sugar and erm basic foodstuffs. And in addition to that, of course, they have copper, and coming up on the future horizon cobalt, and erm the possibilities of developing tourism on quite a big scale, as they were beginning to do in the nineteen sixties before Amin Amin took over. Beana, you're a visiting research fellow. Where do you come from? India. From India. And I understand that your special interest is the role of women. Yes, that's right. Just in India, or in the world as a whole? I'm interested in the role of women all over the world, particularly in terms of what effect development strategies have had on women's position, not merely in India but in other parts of the world as well, because I feel that there are a lot of common experiences which impinge on the problem as it relates to India. mhm. Could you give me some idea of what you've found out, or what you feel on the subject. Well one of the aspects that I have been looking at is erm the impact of technical change on women's position in the rural areas, and particularly as it concerns women who belong to landless households, or women who belong to small peasant cultivator households. And in looking at the experience not merely of Asia, but also of Africa, what becomes increasingly apparent is that most development strategies have tended _ particularly when we look at technical change — erm have tended to bypass women, or in many cases one also notes that the impact of technical change has been detrimental to poor women, and examples of this can be found, for instance, in terms of adoption of certain kinds of technique, like mechanisation of rice processing in parts of Asia, where one finds that there has been a large scale displacement of landless women. Similarly, one can find examples where in the African context, women are the primary producers in agriculture and this non-recognition of this fact has often led to the incongruous situation where strategies erm for change modernisation programmes have erm been directed to me and this erm has meant often the kind of bias in extension services, in training services, has meant that the target group, that is the women towards whom you should really be aiming those programmes, has not have not benefited, and this obviously has detrimental effects on your potential for increasing a casual output and for solving problems of increasing erm productivity and income for these women. The whole idea behind the I D S sounds perhaps at first as if its a little bit like an old missionary organization which has been set up to help the natives. erm is that element there? Aren't people like yourselves being a little bit presumptuous and perhaps even arrogant in feeling that you can help people solve their problems in the rest of the world. I would hope not. Not in the sense that the practical outcome of research on problems in developing countries would not, we hope, be positive. We hope very much it will be useful, but as I tried to stress at the beginning, we very much see the problems of developing countries, which we in the Institute are working on, as part of the problems of what's going wrong in the world at the moment, in which we in Britain very much have a stake too. Now I personally believe that most erm policy makers in Britain, and indeed in most other industrial countries, don't really believe the Third World matters to them at all. You see our most recent budget was largely constructed even neglecting what was happening in other industrial countries. It certainly gave virtually no attention to the impact of erm issues from developing countries, and yet within a matter of weeks we've had the energy problem bringing home directly to the reality of policy in Britain the need to understand and to establish new forms of economic relationships with developing countries. Its why I say because of this that we have a stake in terms of our own enlightened self-interest in understanding better developing countries. I might just say one other thing, though, that I think it's a great mistake to see the I D S, which as I said is a national institute at Sussex, as somehow just a British institution on its own looking at these problems. We have links with other with the university of Sussex, but with other institutions in Britain. Equally, and in some respects more important, we have a lot of links with other institutions, equivalent institutions, in other countries, other rich countries and particularly other developing countries. So I would see it as something of a network, internationally, to try and provide research and study related to how all countries can move better to take account of the never greater level of inter-dependence within the world economy. And we have a stake in that. We also have a sort of partnership with other institutions in understanding better our stake in it and other people's stake in it. But isn't there a sense in which people in other countries really have to help themselves, at least in the first instance? I remember visiting a year or two ago a project in Mexico, where an American organization had moved in and made a careful study, decided that the ideal thing for the local people to do would be to raise chickens, so they put fences up, supplied them with goodness knows how many hundred thousand chickens; within a year they'd killed the chickens, pulled the fences down and used them to cook the chickens and they were back exactly where they were. Now isn't this a the sort of problem that you run into if you try and impose aid from outside? Of course, and if you go back to the answer Beana was giving, even within a country if you try if we try and solve other people's problems, one is very likely, if not always, to end up with those sorts of difficulties. People have got to be involved in solving themselves the problems themselves. But if it's a world problem, if there are international dimensions to our problems in Britain, or to Kenya's problems in Kenya, or to Mexico's Mexican problems in Mexico, then somehow we've got to have international groups looking at the international aspects of those problems. That's particularly what the I D S is now concerned with. Is there a danger in actually introducing too much western technology into countries? I remember, again a few years ago, visiting India and buying one or two beautifully carved tables, which had obviously been carved by an individual spending quite a lot of time doing it, and I was impressed at that stage, rather naively perhaps, that if in fact I'd bought a plain table, an uncarved one, it would have cost me about ten times as much, for the simple reason that that would require a milling machine which was not normally available, and such was the erm economy that it was cheaper for people to do this. Now in a sense erm the question I'm asking is by introducing lots of modern machinery, you could perhaps kill a particular trade or craftsmanship in a whole group of people which may, in fact, be their key for erm future survival mhm. Yes. economically. This may be the thing that the world as a whole would want to buy from them at economic rates. But erm I'm sure you should not look on the Institute as a sort of vehicle for introducing western technology. On the contrary, it draws attention to the dangers of introducing western technology outside, and even in the west it's a good illustration this of the extent to which or work in countries overseas has relevance for Britain, because we have done a great deal of work on the implications for the unemployment problem of having technology which requires too much capital, which has a very ratio of capital to labour. Well that also is a problem in this country as well. We clearly need to look very carefully at the implications of many new technologies for jobs in this country. The context is different, especially for an exporter of manufactures like Britain, but there's a basic common question which arises at the root of the problems of erm technology choice in Africa, in Asia, Latin America and in a European country like Britain. Basically everything we all agree at the Institute the question of improving the lot of the Third World is the responsibility of Third Worlders, and in fact a number of us would add that in very many cases, certainly not in all, it would not be achieved through slow incremental technical change, but would require in some cases very major social structural changes that in some cases erm will only be brought about very major social upheaval erm and there all we can do is add to perhaps the element of increasing consciousness and awareness of the problems, which furthermore is a two way street, I mean when we have this study activities we learn as much from the people who attend the seminars as we tell them. Now the one thing that I think is important is that one cannot look at the problems of any given society in the world in isolation from the rest of the world as a whole, and in particular, in the case of underdeveloped countries, their problems are very much linked to the situations that take place in the developed countries. I was co-ordinating operational activities in the Institute, an international project on commodities last year, and I had to visit a number of research institutes in Asia, erm in Africa and in the Americas, where they were conducting studies on the commodities they produced. Now I was I wouldn't say surprised because the matter is already well know, but I found an additional piece of evidence for the proposition that while they knew a lot about what happened to their commodities in their countries — how it was produced, how it was distributed internally and how it was sold internationally — they generally didn't have very much information as to what happened afterwards. In other words, they didn't know. They didn't have any control, certainly, and not even very much knowledge as to how the commodity — and I'm talking about cotton, rubber, tea, copper, bauxite, coco, sugar, coffee and so on— what happened to it when it enters the market of a developed country. Now that's the kind of information that is absolutely vital for them to understand, in fact for us — I mean I myself am from the Third World — to understand what the problems are, but which can only be achieved with centres in the developed countries that are prepared to make this into a working programme erm for the benefit of both, because in very many cases improving erm the lot of the Third World on the question of revenue from commodities will also improve their position, or the British or the American, or the European consumer, by eliminating intermediaries and so on and so forth. So that's a good case in which I think an Institute of this kind can perform a very useful role which doesn't have any paternalistic undertones at all, because it will learn as much as it will teach, so to speak. We read lot in recent days and weeks about refugees, mainly Vietnamese refugees. Although it's a problem which has existed for a long, long time, do you do any work in connection with refugees? Yes, we are erm particularly interested in academic refugees from the Third World. The case of the Vietnamese refugees has highlighted a very broad problem, but within it, of course, there are number of differences and have been particularly involved in the question of people from universities and institutes in the Third World are uprooted and whose work is interrupted by political upheaval. We've held two conferences on on erm Third World refugees of an academic kind and made proposals, some of which have had very concrete results in the form of aid from the British government to some of these groups. We've also held a conference of a more general kind on the situation of refugees in the United Kingdom, in which a report was produced, that particularly highlighted the legal situation of the refugees, that had quite an impact among international organizations like United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees, which has served as basis for a number of proposals to change the present legal regime of refugees in the UK. There are many groups in the area who are committed to development. Do you do anything that's relevant to them. I think we do a lot that's relevant to local groups and, as a local boy born in Hove if I may say so, I hope erm I bear in mind local groups. I think a lot of our research writing, directly and indirectly, provides very much the material which these groups are using — U N groups, church groups erm the Friend Centre, other local groups that are either studying development or promoting better attitudes in Britain and policies towards it. I think I should mention we have perhaps the best library collection in Britain on developing country material, and if there is someone with a specialist need, they would be welcome to use our library. And then our own facilities, as Carlos has already mentioned, have been used for conferences of Third World First and other development groups occasionally have met in the Institute, and of course erm our own staff and students, and indeed sometimes Third Worlders spending a period at the Institute have given local talks and participated in local meetings. Perhaps I might just take the chance to say that if there is a local group that would like to hospitality to people from developing countries that are at the Institute, we always welcome that sort of opportunity and invitation. Thank you very much. Next week we shall be taking another look at education, and in particular comprehensive schools. I shall be talking to Stephen Ball and others about their studies of the effectiveness of this approach to education. Until next week, goodnight. Hello. One of the benefits of being at a university is the range of lectures that are put on each week on topics ranging from Chinese ceramics to nuclear power stations. One lecture I recently attended and very much enjoyed was given by Doctor Norman Vance on the subject of ‘Moralistic Females and Victorian Discontents’. Norman, how did you get interested in this as a theme? I suspect that it started when I would read my grandmother's Sunday School prizes and my father's Sunday School prizes as a small boy. A lot of these were books written by moralistic females; books which erm reflected various kinds of Victorian ideas, and much later on when I did some research in Oxford on Victorian literature I found a way of putting these two sorts of things together. Who are the moralistic females you have in mind? The moralistic female I was particularly thinking of was George Eliot, because Nietzsche, the German writer, actually complained that she was a particularly moralistic female, but I was also thinking of people like Mrs Henry Wood and Amy Le Fevre and a few others like that. Why would a lady choose a nom de plume such as George Eliot? Well, she was actually called Marian Evans and was looking for a masculine name to writer under. Why exactly she chose George Eliot I can't actually think, but it's as good name as any I suppose. Was it a symbol of her discontent as a Victorian lady? I suppose there was an element of that in it. I think also there was the sense that the sorts of books that a lady was expected to write were perhaps rather different from the sorts of books that a gentleman is required to write, and George Eliot had already made a name for herself as a writer of erm considerable independence of mind who, I think, wanted to be regarded as a writer, rather than as a lady novelist. Some lady novelists were rather silly, and she herself had written a rather scathing article about silly lady novelists. So how would George Eliot compare with, say, a lady novelist like Jane Austen? I think that she had a broader ranger of interest than Jane Austen. Jane Austen rather prides herself on writing on things with a fairly restricted area of interest, whereas George Eliot, on the other hand, I think is interested to write about all sorts of things. She ranges historically as far back as the Florence of Savonarola's time in Romola, and geographically she actually encompasses themes such as Judaism in her last novel Daniel Deronda, and that, I think, you know, takes her both chronologically and geographically well beyond Jane Austen's range of interest. In what sense is George Eliot is moralistic? Well I'm not really sure that she is. This was an unkind remark made about her by somebody who disliked her attitude. She is certainly very concerned with moral themes, but I don't think that she's moralistic in the sense of hectoringly preaching at erm at an audience to do such a and not to do other certain other kinds of things. I think that the adjective moralistic is really an unkind way of protesting at the fact that she seems to continue to be interested in moral themes which are often associated with Christianity, even if she has got rid of actual orthodox commitment to Christianity itself. In other words, you are saying that the morality to be found in George Eliot's novels is quite different from the more conventional Christian morality that's found in other novels of that period. I don't think that's quite what I was trying to suggest. I was trying to suggest that instead of actually definitely writing novels with a very straightforward moral theme, the theme of the novel being that you must do this or terrible things will happen, instead of doing that erm she is anxious to write novels which show you moral possibilities, that somebody or other may actually get into difficulty because they fail to understand something about somebody else and I think that these novels are intended to tell people more about themselves that erm they might otherwise realize. So to that extent they certainly explore moral issues; I think in a way that is not inconsistent with traditional Christian morality, but there is not attempt, I think, to thrust specific moral propositions erm, you know, down the throat of the reader erm in a way that more moralistic novels perhaps might do. The other half of your title is ‘Victorian Discontents’. In what sense were these female writers discontents? Well, I think George Eliot in particular was discontented with the traditional frames of belief that she encountered in her time. She wrote an article about evangelical Christianity, in which she complained bitterly about a particular writer, a Doctor Cumming, who she said was not merely intellectually dishonest in attempting, by slipper means, to reconcile traditional Christian belief with certain new kinds of discovery in archaeology and so on, but he was also lacking in charity and the way which he hammered everybody who didn't subscribe to his particular form of religious believe didn't seem to her to be anything to do with the true spirit of Christianity, so she was discontented with that form of Victorian religion. Do you think that the novels that George Eliot wrote stand in their own right today? I think so. erm it seems to me that they are among the most important, most serious, novels that have ever been written anywhere. Which ones would you recommend to somebody who'd never read any before? Well, erm I think the first novel of George Eliot that I read was Adam Bede, and I think that that's actually quite a good starting point. It's her first full-scale novel, and I think there's a lot to be said for it. It's a simple story about village life, which nevertheless erm makes a lot of serious moral points. A much longer, but I think much more rewarding novel in the end, is Middlemarch. It is a very long novel; on the other hand it seems to be one of the best novels ever written, and I would strongly recommend somebody who has perhaps read a little George Eliot to go on to that. Do you think that women write different books from men? I think that they probably do. erm it's difficult to erm be sure of this. It's the sort of question that a man and a woman might very well give different answers to, but it seems to me that there are different sorts of things that erm some women tend to notice, different sorts of ideas that tend to assume prominence in the imaginations of some women, and erm to that extent I think that George Eliot's sympathy for other people, including people that she doesn't actually agree with, is perhaps a characteristic that one might tend to find more in a women novelist than in a male novelist, although I'm not sure that one can be absolutely dogmatic and say that one would never find a male novelist who could write the way that George Eliot does. You say that these books stand in their own right, and are important perhaps in the historical context of the development of the novel, but do they constitute what I'd call a good read? Yes, I think so. erm there are times, perhaps, when one feels this is a little bit dull and wants to skip on for a page or two, but I suspect that that is the case with most novels that one would want to read nowadays. erm I think that, you know, some bits of the book are actually funny; some bits of it erm are touching; some bits are exciting, and these are the elements, I would have thought, of a good read in any age. Could you give me an example of any nice passage in Adam Bede or Middlemarch to whet our appetites? I think my one of my favourite passages in Adam Bede might be the description near the beginning of the novel of the methodist preacher, Diner, addressing a meeting of villagers and instead of giving you the entire speech, word for word, George Eliot gives you a little bit of what she said and then describes the manner in which she said it, and the manner in which it was actually received. That seems to me to be a very moving description of somebody who is preaching to people, not from any sense of superiority, but rather from a sense of human concern and caring about the people that she is addressing, and this makes the way in which George Eliot writes about her very different from the way in which other methodist preachers have been described either as ranters, erm or as people who are so caught up in what they are saying themselves that the fail to make any pay any attention to the people that they are addressing. So that, I think, is one of my favourite moments in Adam Bede. How does the treatment of women in her books compare with the treatment of women, say, in books by Hardy. Is she more sympathetic to the woman's position in society? Difficult to say. erm in many ways I think she is. One strange thing about her books is that they nearly all tend to be set a little bit back in the past, so that the position of the women that she is describing and the society in which she is describing them isn't quite what's actually going on a the time she's writing. erm she is, on the whole, very sympathetic to most of the people that she writes about. I think one of my difficulties with Adam Bede is that she begins to lose interest a little bit in the figure of the beautiful, but not actually very bright, village girl, whose seduction is an important part of the story, and by the end of the book we feel that she's actually bored with Hettie, isn't really concerned any longer to explore Hettie's own sufferings as the other woman who has been badly treated by the rascally gentleman. So, she can, I think, have certain failures of sympathy for female characters. On the other hand, I think she is much less inclined to make her women examples of some particular sociological or historical development, which I think is Hardy's temptation all the time. So many of Hardy's girls are people who've had a little bit of education, and who are somehow or other caught between traditional ways and modern ways, and I think one has the feeling that Hardy is more interested in the sociologically transitional status of the people he's writing about than he is interested in them as people. I don't think George Eliot tends to make that sort of mistake. Switching, if I may, from Victorian novelists to more contemporary novelists, who do you think are good novelists of today? I think erm my two, or perhaps three, favourite novelists for today would be William Golding, Graham Greene and Iris Murdoch, and it seems to me that at least part of their importance is that they are really concerned with moral themes, as George Eliot was, even though, like George Eliot, they are shy about forcing a particular moral down the throat of a reader. Would The Spire by William Golding be a good example of what you had in mind? Yes, I would I would think so. erm The Spire is erm a symbol that has a lot of meanings attached to it, and it's finally a book not about the building of a spire, but about a particular obsession in an individual human being, about the ideas that a man might have about ways of doing great things, which might actually be ideas that are rooted in some sort of self-deception. This, it seems to me, is a them that is of abiding significance, because we all of us do things for the wrong reasons, and yet it's all rather magnificently tied up with the attempt to build a glorious spire to a medieval cathedral. My last question is simply this. Supposing that I were to ask you to recommend a good, modern book to read, and I don't mean good in the sense of morally uplifting, but perhaps more in the sense of exciting or interesting reading. What would you suggest? I think a book that I have recently read and greatly enjoyed was, in fact, Graham Greene's The Honorary Consul, which is now available in paperback. That seemed to me to be a very good read, a serious book. It's got spies in it, so that it's got certain contemporary interest, but erm that did seem to me to be a very fine and very moving novel, which I'd strongly recommend. Thank you very much, Norman. Next week I shall be talking to Professor Max Clews all about computers and the human mind. Are we about to be taken over by the machine? Until next week, goodbye. Hello. This is another programme in our series from the university, in which we share with you news and views concerning activities that are going on here. In these programmes we're talking with people in the community who have particular contacts with us, and Graham Mayhew, who is my guest today, is a particularly good example of somebody who has contact with us at all sorts of different levels. Graham, I want to start by asking you about you being mayor. You look far too young to be a mayor, but you've just finished being Mayor of Lewes. Yes, I was the youngest ever Mayor of Lewes by a clear ten years. I'm the only one who's ever been mayor in his twenties, and I think that came about probably because the family had been in the town since the beginning of the century erm and I'd been involved in local politics since about eight or nine, taking numbers on polling stations and so on, and so when I got elected to the Council I think one or two people at any rate felt that it was quite natural that I should have the opportunity fairly soon. And so you were the youngest ever Mayor of Lewes? Yes. The previous youngest was thirty eight when he took over, and I was twenty eight. Well that's, as you say, a record by ten years. Did you actually enjoy being Mayor? Oh yes, I mean it's tremendous fun, actually, because it's one of those jobs which you can make more or less whatever you want out of. And providing you're sort of enthusiastic enough and you actually put the time in and the effort, then people respond. What are the things that you introduced that were different from previous mayors? Last year was the centenary of the Borough Charters, so on the one hand I was trying to restore the traditions of the thing — erm we tried to reintroduce some of the pomp and ceremonial — and then on the other hand I felt that the mayoralty often didn't seem terribly relevant to people of my generation, and so I tried to involve a lot of young people in various activities and the offshoot of that has been a Youth Advisory Committee which I've set up, which at the moment is in the process of trying to negotiate with the County Council for some premises to try and increase the sort of Youth Club type evening provision in the town. Well my son, Andrew, was involved with some of these discussions, so what I didn't learn first hand myself I learned second hand from him. I think that's an absolutely excellent idea to involve younger people. Do you regard your efforts in that direction as being successful? Well, it's really too early to say. I think it's been successful in trying to break down barriers a bit. I think at least some of the representatives — the head boy and girl and deputy head boy of Priory School, and some of the people from Ringmer School and so on— at least have contact now on a fairly regular basis with local councillors, local council officials and so on . I think it enables the young people that have been coming to those meetings to find out too the problems that Councillors and Local Authorities have in actually trying to carry out the sort of things they want. For example on the building that we're talking about shifting, first of all we've got to find a site for the thing, then we've got to get planning permission, then we've got to get the actual permission of the owner of the land, then we've got to make sure that erm electricity's laid on, that there's water laid on, that there's some sort of toilet or other facilities and so on, and when you add all that up it's quite a complicated sort of series of bureaucratic procedures you've got to go through and it's not a question of, you know, of people saying to us as Councillors well, you know, do this for us and we can magic it out in six months out of thin air _ there's an awful lot of paperwork that's got to be gone through and an awful lot of people to see and an awful lot of red tape, really, to get through first — I mean just to make sure that the thing's safe and complies with health and safety standards — and that's something which you have to get across to young people and if they're involved in the actual discussions on this and involved in the organisation, they begin to see the complexities and they're less inclined, I think, to automatically assume that erm people aren't on their side and don't want to listen. And of course Lewes is a small enough town that it's possible for ordinary people to be involved in central activities like Council activities and so on. Yes, I think it's a small enough town for people to get to know who their representatives are, to get to know each other, to get to know who runs which societies and organizations in the town, and that creates a sort of area of communal feeling that you don't get in a place that's, say, five or six times as big. You know, Lewes is about the right sort of size for that, people don't get too much on top of each other, but at least they can find their way around. I know that you're an historian by profession. Did this allow you to reintroduce, rediscover old traditions in Lewes that had been lost? Yes, I mean I run a series for one of the local newspapers on past Lewes mayors and the amount of work that I had to do for that meant that I picked up all sorts of pieces of information about what other mayors had tried in the past, and things that had been successful and things that had been disasters, and as it was the centenary I went to a lot of trouble to look up exactly what had happened a hundred years ago and to try and recreate the ceremonial connected with that, and then when we elected erm two people honourary freeman of the town I got in all of the other mayors from Sussex, asked them to come along with their robes and mace bearers and so on, and we had this very sort of grand ceremonial procession in the Assembly Hall, which was sort of packed out with about four hundred people. My only regret on that particular occasion now is that I didn't organise properly getting it videotaped, because it would have been a nice thing to keep, but as far as I could I kept to the traditions of mayoral ceremonial on those sorts of occasions. Lewes has only had a mayor or two for a hundred years, and so its ceremonial is somewhat new, but one was able to draw on the traditions in places like Rye, where it goes back to the thirteenth/fourteenth centuries, and erm I used some of the phraseologies out of sixteenth century Rye documents and so on in my Lewes mayoralty on these sorts of ceremonial occasions, and introduced some of the ceremonial which I knew was authentic to mayoralties elsewhere in Sussex. And I think it sort of paid off in making people feel in the town during the year that they had a mayor, that the ceremonial actually meant something and related to them, and certainly I still find tremendous numbers of people who sort of come along and invite you to things — people who before would have probably said ‘Oh it's a waste of money’, and I think we did quite a lot to change that attitude. Why is it that mayors only existed in Lewes for a hundred years seeing it's such an old town? Primarily because the town's basically of Saxon foundation. It's sort of grid iron pattern streets on the south side of the High Street; on the north side that's all disrupted by the castle and, as far as one can tell, when the town and the area around it, the Rape of Lewes, was ceded to William De Warren, most of the local powers of the Town Council such as it was were taken away and subverted and the town became a minorial borough and although it sent Members of Parliament to Westminster from the end of the thirteenth century, it only had a very sort of ramshackle corporation, because the lords of the manor of Lewes kept control fairly tightly on what the town was actually allowed to do and on its internal freedoms. Although there was a sort of medieval corporation, it didn't have a Royal Charter and so in the end of the seventeenth century it was somewhat subverted, and really there was no proper town government to speak of until the beginning of the nineteenth century with the Borough Commissioners and then later on with the Mayor and Corporation which was set up in eighteen eighty one. Well you've obviously studied your local history very closely, and I believe you actually run local history classes, don't you? Yes, I've got four going at the moment, actually . It's rather ludicrous really. I've got one in Battle on Tudor Battle, all about the dissolution of Battle Abbey and erm what happened to the town afterwards; one on Elizabethan Rye, which is erm was notable because it was the largest place in Sussex at the time, a very important port, a lot of trade for London went through Rye, and there's a lot of stuff relating to piracy and erm warfare. For example, in fifteen fifty seven/eight, when Queen Mary lost Calais to the French, the income of the town corporation doubled in that year from three hundred pounds to six hundred, and that's entirely because they pulled in awful lot of French boats and then charged them all a lot of ransom money before they sent them back to France. So that sort of thing's quite fun. erm I've got courses in Eastbourne and erm a course in Brighton, on medieval stained glass in fact. I've always enjoyed teaching _ it's something which I feel is very important for someone who's an historian. I don't like just doing research without communicating it, and I think if you've got an interest and you can communicate it well to people, then it stimulates their enjoyment and of course in a time when there's going to have to be more and more leisure I think that's very important. And you're doing these courses under the gist of the Centre for Continuing Education at the university? Yes, that's right. I mean the second main paymaster of myself, you know, is the university, in fact, and erm without them I don't suppose I could have sort of financed the extra side of sort of clothing and everything else for my mayoralty. And do I understand that there's a day school planned in the near future? Yes, I've got a day school on December the fourth. It's a Saturday. It's all day from ten o'clock to about five. We're going to be looking at Lewes in the period during the late middle ages, early modern period, when it had an unchartered corporation, how the town was governed and so on. We're going to be looking at the contrast between that and places like Rye, which did have a chartered corporation, and we're going to be looking at sort of trade, at the effects of epidemics on the town, erm and so on. I think it should be great fun. And you don't have to have a history degree to come along to one of these things? No, we don't expect any background knowledge at all. And details can be got from the Centre for Continuing Education at the university. I'm sure if anyone wrote in they would be sent an appropriate form. That's right, yes. How much does it cost? I think it's six pounds fifty for the erm for the day. They have to buy their own lunch in the university refectory, but that's an experience in itself, so anybody who wants to come and play student for the day, it's great fun. Well that's sounds something to recommend for that December Saturday. Looking at other aspects of your life and work, you're official history activities are with the East Sussex Record Office at Pelham House. That's right, yes. I run the search room there, which means that erm people come into Pelham House, they usually meet me at a desk and the end of a telephone, and I put them onto the documents that they want to look at and I make sure that they're ordered up from where they're kept in one of the various repositories and strong rooms that we've got. Then I produce them for them and erm if they need any help reading them and so on I give them that. And are most of the documents in Sussex now kept in the East Sussex Record Office? Well the two Record Offices for Sussex — there's the East Sussex one, under the East Sussex County Council in Lewes, and the West Sussex Record Office at Chichester. An increasing number of official documents are being kept at Record Offices. All of the Parish Registers for the various East Sussex parishes are now held, with one exception, at Lewes. erm all of the Local Authority records, as far as we've been able to get them in, are held there. We're trying at the moment to get in non-conformist church records, or at least to get copies of them if the churches don't want to let us have them, because they're quite important for the nineteenth century history of East Sussex, and erm really any help that we can get from the general public who've got old documents relating to their properties, minutes of any organisation that they've been involved in, or that used to exist and that's now collapsed, anything like that that can add to the history of the county we're always very grateful to receive. And again, the Record Office is something that lay folk can just come in an look up books and ask questions if they wish to? Yes, it's open Mondays to Fridays, from quarter to nine through to quarter to five, and anyone can just walk in and we'll do our best to help them produce whatever it is they want to see, providing we've got it and we can find it. Well I've actually spent some hours in the Record Office, I don't think while you've been there, erm doing a bit of ancestor hunting, so I am familiar with your work and activities. Yes, well anybody can come in and trace their family, so long as they know that they came from Sussex at some point and they've got something to work on, they've got some idea of which town or which village they came from, then usually the Parish Registers and things like the Census Returns over the last hundred years are usually able to help them. One other contact that I think you have with us is that you sing in the Meeting House Choir. Well, yes. I haven't actually managed to make it yet this term because of all the teaching preparation I've been doing, but erm I've done that for the last two years and erm it's been quite an important activity because it enabled me, after I came back down to Lewes, to help to get to know a few people in the university and to sort of expand my contacts, and the Meeting House is one of those places which is open to the general public on Sundays for religious worship. There's a Catholic service at half past ten and an inter-denominational one at half past eleven. There is a choir which produces things — various medieval and erm renaissance and eighteenth century anthems and so on, and they do a Christmas carol service and so on — and it's really quite I find it quite nice to come to, because it doesn't have the sort of narrow denominationalism that many of the local churches have. You've got experience of being at two other universities. You did your undergraduate work at York and then you did a doctorate at Oxford. How do you find Sussex compares with those two? Well, it's difficult really. erm architecturally I suppose it doesn't compare with a medieval university. I liked York very much, because it was set round a lake and it was the first one I went to, but I must say of the other modern universities that I know I would say that Sussex was erm was the other best one that I've been to and the one that I felt most comfortable and happy. Thank you very much, Graham. Next week we shall have another member of the local community as our guest. Until next week, then, goodbye. Hello. This is another in our series from the university, in which I shall be discovering from people in the wider community what they know about us and what the points of contact are between the university and them. This week I have with me Meg Braga, a friend, and a lady of many interests and talents who is thoroughly involved in the local community. Meg, I think the first time I met you was when you brought a party of visitors from the British Council here, is that right? Yes, that was some time ago when I was working as a hostess with the British Council and used to collect meet VIPs at the station and bring them here to the university. And that was when the university was very much on the British Council circuit. Do you think that still happens? I imagine it must do, yes. It's an absolutely fascinating thing to do, because they always have so much to offer — the people who are visiting from abroad — you learn an awful lot about them. Another point of contact that I know that you have, actually, is through the Brighton Festival Chorus. mhm. The Brighton Festival Chorus rehearses here, doesn't it, at the university? Yes, we have done since the beginning, about erm twelve/thirteen years ago. And Lazlo Heltai , who used to be the Director of Music at the university, still is the Director of the Brighton Festival Chorus. Yes, he's our conductor. Absolutely marvellous person. We're very, very fortunate, I think, in being able to use the university facilities here because they really are ideal. We've been to most of the lecture theatres. At the moment we're in the biology lecture theatre and it's tremendous fun to be able to come all together like this. It's an ideal place too for those who come from Brighton and Lewes and the surrounding areas. Tell me about the Brighton Festival Chorus itself. I'm not sure that people know very much about it. How long has it been going I think it was sixty nine that we started. I think Lazlo introduced this, to us, very refreshing sort of sound that he wanted to achieve and we were able at the beginning to quite take people by surprise with this what was described as a young, fresh sound, and we did quite a number of recordings. Then, fortunately, the middle of the seventies, we were able to link up with the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra, and now, in fact, most of our concerts are done in London with the Royal Phil. at the Royal Festival Hall. It grew originally out of the actual Brighton Festival. That's right, yes, and we still do one, perhaps two, concerts a year in Brighton at the Festival, but then we were able to develop from there, which has been a tremendous erm thrill for everybody. And it's certainly been marvellous to come and listen to it, as I have been one of your loyal supporters over many years. Yes, I know, mhm. And it's been marvellous to keep going. You've been abroad quite a lot, haven't you, with the chorus. Is it have you got any great trips lined up now — Athens? . Well our lovely trip was to Athens last year, yes, erm when we did the Britten's War Requiem beneath the Acropolis in the old amphitheatre there and that was an experience that we'll all remember, and then previously we went to Lisbon, which was very exciting — it was a completely different sort of experience. Of course at the university you do your rehearsals, but the contact is greater than that. There must be quite a number of members from the university who are in the chorus. Oh yes, that's right. I mean there's a strong Music Department here and we have a number of music students who come into the chorus for the while that they're in the university — they often sing in the university choir, I think, as well and play in the orchestra, or perhaps the Meeting House Choir, and a number of members of faculty, I think, as well sing with us. Is it possible for students to sing with you, or are they here for too short a time? No, I'm sure that they that so long as they pass the audition they are always welcome. We're very glad of them. Another point of contact is the New Sussex Opera Group. You are now one of the committee member and the certainly put on productions in Lewes, but also at the Gardner Centre. Here again, there must be a fair number of university people that are involved in one way and another? Yes, I think that's inevitable to some extent. The academic, intellectual types also have a cultural background and are interested in aspects of the arts, and erm we are very fortunate, I think, also in that people are able to give more time than perhaps business people, and so a number of the members of the committee are university people and we are able to use the Gardner Arts Centre, which has become quite an exciting area, in that it's open to experimental production, so therefore we attract a lot of the London critics. What's the next production that you have lined up for? Well that's quite soon. That's the Threepenny Opera, Bertolt Brecht. And when's that going to be on? That's the last week in November, the twentieth, that week. And that's not really opera, it's theatre, musical theatre, and we're experimenting quite considerably with the theatre in that case and doing it almost in the round. Oh, that's very interesting. So there'll be a change round of the the staging and seating and so on. Yes, yes, yes. It's interesting how, although the Gardner Centre was built as a theatre that was very flexible in terms of seating, it's not used all that often, is it? No, no, but I think that the present producer has seen it's potential and is going to explore it much more fully. mhm. Who is the producer of the ? Peter Reynolds this time. Yes. mhm. We employ a number of professional producers and this time Peter — he's a very experienced drama teacher — and he is working with Julian Elloway, who is a local musician. Oh Julian, of course, was at Sussex. That's right. Again and again we find this link. Yes. And what are you actually doing? I know you've got some responsibility with this opera. Well I'm not on stage this time, I'm going to have a go with the costumes. Oh, well something to look forward to. Another point of contact I know that you have is erm through the Town Gown Club. This is an organization that listeners may not realize, which meets probably a couple of times a term, and which members of the university and people outside community meet, have some supper together, perhaps, and actually hear some talks, either from people inside the university or outside, about topics of current interest. We've got one coming up this term given by John Maynard-Smith about whether Darwin is still true in this day and age or not. You've come to a number of those I guess? Yes, I have over the years. I think it's a very useful point of contact, because there are areas in which there are obviously differences, different styles of life, different ways of life, different erm time commitments, and it's very good that this something that tries to bridge the gap. It's very helpful for both sides of the community, I'm sure, to have contact like this and I think that the programme is usually very well devised in that you do have something either of mutual interest or one area and then the other area so that we can be informed about erm what's going on in the other section of the community. I know you're also very much involved with social work generally. What are you actually doing at the moment? Well, I help in general areas in Lewes within the community. The thing that's really helped enormously recently has been the Phoenix Centre and the development of the Phoenix Centre, and there's room there for a lot of volunteers to work in various capacities. Also the project that has hit the news quite a bit recently is the talking newspaper for the blind. Our present mayoress of Lewes, Mavis Askew, who's done a sterling work as secretary of this new association, and that's a very worthwhile project, and I believe she works in the library here. Do you find any of my colleagues involved in that? I'm sorry to say I don't, no, but I very rarely find anybody from the university, with one exception — Homeless in Sussex, I think there are two or three people there. But I don't know quite why it is — maybe that's one area where I do find there's a bit of segregation, or maybe it's just that people don't have the time available, but it's a different sector of the community who are working with the basic things like helping the old and the infirm more, just being able to give cups of coffee to people, or chatting to them, or visiting them, or whatever. Well that's an awful shame that we're not involved in that. I may be completely wrong. I mean this is just the areas that I've touched on, and again it's in many cases it's only fringe. When we were talking just now before the programme started I think you said that you weren't sure that you'd had a great deal of contact with the university one way or another, but surely you've been surrounded by university people? mhm. You've lived in Brighton and you've lived in Kingston, and now you live in Lewes. All these areas are absolutely fully of university types and you can scarcely help but bump into them all the time. mhm. How do you think they're fitted in generally? My personal observations I can make a comment on, for example, the cultural area. I think that what happens in a place like erm Kingston, or a place like Lewes from my observation is that the general aspirations, the pretensions, change. Lewes and Kingston area are very different from Brighton where everything is very commercially based and rather materialistic. I think perhaps it's the influence of the university that makes a town like Lewes perhaps erm the aspirations may be more intellectual or cultural. You notice more book shops. Generally the whole level changes. Can you see any disadvantages of the university being here? I don't have enough contact to be able to say the disadvantages. I think in a community one does come across practical snags, like for example the differences become very marked between the businessman who goes off at eight in the morning and comes back at six, week in week out, year in year out, with perhaps sort of three or four weeks holiday, and the university men who appear to be around an awful lot of the time and appear to have a lot of holiday. Probably both sides are not well enough informed about what's going on on the other side. One doesn't realize that there's a lot of research to be done or ruminating time, or whatever, and so that can be an area of misunderstanding or it can build up unfortunate prejudices. I think, actually, from the university point of view it's a job which is very ill-defined in terms of time. It's very difficult to reduce it. Some people reduce it to a sort of nine to five or a nine to six type job, but I think many of us feel it's so totally open-ended we're never quite sure when we ought to start and we're never quite sure when we ought to finish. And of course we only spend a minority of our time actually teaching. The rest of the time we are supposed to be thinking these big thoughts mhm. and doing the research mhm. and so on, so I'm not surprised that people have these ideas about us. erm yes, to some extent. It's easier for someone who has a timetable laid out for them very clearly during the day. They don't have to make those initial decisions of how to plan their time and their work. As a university member, I think the thing I would most like to have happen is to be accepted as an ordinary person in the place I live and the people I meet with. Do you think there are features associated with university types of the kind that I'm worried about? They do tend to be labelled, yes. I mean I'm speaking of someone whose work is of a different kind, and they do tend to be labelled probably because they seem to be around a lot, and obviously have some political influence on the area. I don't know how far people can be integrated, because to the businessman it appears that the businessman is dealing with the nitty gritty of life and the responsibilities of every day life and the university man is someone who is detached from them, maybe the ivory tower sort of pictures still holds true. I think that probably is true to some extent. Do you have any sort of tangible suggestions as to ways in which university people could actually become more part of the community? Well is there any point in anybody trying to be what they're not? I think you've just got to live the way of life as you find it. I'm not suggesting for a moment that university people aren't as integrated as anyone else. I think one of the fallacies erm that you touched on is this question of political bias. I am sure that the wider world think of us as all being terribly left wing, whereas in fact we're awfully liberal and conservative and with a spectrum distribution of political allegiances which I suspect are very little different from the community as a whole. Yes, I'm sure what you say is true and, knowing as many people as we are privileged and glad to know, I agree with you that there is a wide spectrum, but it's always the case that the vociferous ones are the ones that set the tone, and often in wrong light. Thank you very much, Meg, for talking to me. Perhaps I should say a little bit more about the Phoenix Centre for the benefit of those of you who are unfamiliar with Lewes. It's actually a multi-purpose building, located in the centre of town, and used for all sorts of purposes, for all sections of the community. It's run by the Social Services Department, but it also relies heavily on contributions and voluntary help from local people. Next week I shall be talking with Graham Mayhew, who has recently completed a period in office as Mayor of Lewes. Well, that's all that we have time for today. Until next week, then, goodbye. Hello. Today I have with me two ladies who have embarked on a career in science. Pam Murphy has recently enrolled as a postgraduate student in experimental physics, and Carol Wallis, having got a degree and a postgraduate degree at Cambridge, and taught in various places, is now working as a Research Fellow in biochemistry at the university. It does seem to me that there are still relatively few women who become professional scientists, and today I hope that you two ladies will help me explore perhaps some of the reasons why this is the case. But first, Pam, how did you get into physics in the first place? My father's a physicist and my mum's a science teacher, and although at school I was interested in all things, most subjects, erm I think maths and physics came particularly easily to me. Since I was becoming a scientist they encouraged me Yes. to do that. And, Carol, did you have the advantage of that sort of background too? My mother, too, was a science teacher and I was good at science, and I always continued with that line because partly of the family background and partly of my own interests. So what came first, your own interests or your family's encouragement to go into science I wonder? Very difficult to decide. I think the two go along together. Did you find this difficult to do at school? Did you go to the sort of school where it was made easy to go into science, or did you go to the sort of school where nice girls did the arts or something quite different? No, in my school it was very easy to go into science. I went to a co-educational school and I was not aware of any pressure for girls to go into arts and boys into science. I found it very easy to go into the science sixth and nobody suggested that it wasn't a ladylike thing to do. And how about you, Pam, were you fortunate at school too? Oh yes, erm I went to a comprehensive co-educational school and found exactly the same thing. Let's move on a little bit to university, perhaps. Did you find that at Oxford, Pam, there were many other girls doing physics? No, there I started to notice that there were a lot more men than women in the lectures erm And did that make it harder for you to do physics? Not at all, no. By that time I'd really stopped noticing whether people are male or female and just got on with the physics. mhm. How about at Cambridge? Did you have a feeling that you were alone? There are rather more women, I think, that go into chemistry on the whole, aren't there, than perhaps physics, and certainly engineering. Yes, and of course biology. I was doing zoology and botany as well as biochemistry and chemistry. Oh yes. And there were a fair number, though of course the numbers of women at Cambridge are, or at that time were, very low. I mean now there are more mixed colleges. mhm. The proportions are different, but I think when I was there there was one woman to every eleven men, so that even in the arts subjects there were a lot more men than women. But it certainly never bothered me, or didn't make any difference to one's work. Certainly statistically, then, many more men on science. mhm. Do you think there are any disadvantages? The apparatus is built for people over six foot tall . I can't reach most of it . That's pretty fair, yes. I haven't come across any disadvantages yet. So you don't think you're going to have any problems in your career by having sort of the men getting the juicier jobs or dominating you in any sense? I hope not. I don't think so. Well you, of course, Carol, are a little bit further down the line. You've got rather more experience than Pam and you have taught at — it was Queen Elizabeth College you taught at? Yes, that's right. And in the States as well? erm no, I was doing research in the States. You did research in the States. mhm. You've done some teaching at Sussex. How do you feel about your career as a chemist or biochemist, as a woman as well? Well I don't think that it's primarily being a woman that affected my career. What affected my career was having children, which immediately means that you can't devote the amount of time to your career as you can if you don't have other responsibilities, and the reason that I'm now a Research Fellow here, and I work part-time — only eighty per cent of the time — is because of trying to tie in one's responsibilities as a mother with those as a scientist, and this has obvious effects. At the present time jobs are not easy to come by, and if you're on permanent, or rather short-term contracts renewed all the time this makes a difference to where you can get to compared with a man with the equivalent training. But I think that being a woman never affected what I was doing, it was having children which did that. And that's an obvious erm fact of life, if you like, that you really can't get round in any practical way. No, I think that all women in all jobs, and particularly in professional jobs, have this problem that at a time when you should be doing your perhaps your most original work, building up your reputation, then you're also tied up with problems of looking after children. But unless you hand them over to somebody else completely, which most people don't feel is a very satisfactory arrangement, you're left with that problem. There's no way round it. I have been able to continue doing research, which I enjoy very much, and I think it's worked out very well. And presumably there are rewards in having children anyway, as a women, quite apart from Oh yes. the other effects. Yes, I mean it would be nice if it was possible, you know, after having taken time out, or some time out, over a period to be able to get back into a more permanent career structure, but maybe in the future this'll come. Yes. At the moment there are difficulties for everybody. Do you think you say there are difficulties for everyone, are you aware of any way in which erm men make it difficult for you, as a women, in a career sense? Not really, no. I've always found the men that I've worked with either it has made no difference that I was a woman so far as I was aware, or else they've been very helpful. I mean I've certainly been very much helped in the time at Sussex when I've been working part time by the men that I've worked with mhm. in making it possible for me to do part-time research. What sort of physics are you actually going to do. What sort of research project are you going to do, Pam? I'm going to look at what happens to helium at low temperatures, and in particular I'm going to see what it does when it's stuck onto carbon, which it will do very readily. So it's really something at very low temperatures, and it's a bit of fundamental physics research. Are there theories which describe what might happen? Yes, there are theories at to what happens at well the temperature's in fact just about as low as you can get. What, just a fraction of a degree above absolute zero? Yes, yes, that sort of thing. And we have a very large low temperature group in physics at the university, don't we? It's one of the major places of low temperature research in the country. Yes, that's why I came here . And that's why you came here, indeed. How about your particular research interests, Carol? Well at the moment I'm working on the mechanism action of vitamin B twelve dependent enzymes. In fact the enzyme that I work with is a bacterial enzyme. It's simpler to obtain large amounts of it and one hopes that if one finds out something of the mechanism through this enzyme one would be able to apply it to other enzymes dependent upon the same coenzyme. This will have an application ultimately, perhaps, to treatment of anaemia in people, although I know you're working large on bacteria? Not not directly. The treatment of anaemia is more concerned with the uptake of the co-ential vitamin than what it does when it gets to it's site of action. Let's talk about what you ladies to when you're not actually being scientists. I've labelled you very strongly a scientist. Pam, you used to do a lot of rowing, didn't you, at Oxford? Yes, coxing. Did you, where did you cox? Well in my second year I coxed one of the women's university boats against well underneath the famous Sue Brown. That took up an awful lot of time in my second year, although it was good fun. We raced against Cambridge at Henley. Did you? Yes. Did you win? No, we lost. Oh well, never mind. . But it was worth it. And I also know that you spent a summer on rather a long walk. In fact, you walked from Lands End to John O'Groats. Now why did you do that? Well, I went with a friend from university and we both enjoyed walking and in particular we enjoyed walking from one place to another place, and last summer was the only last long break either of us would ever really have and erm How long did it take you? we spent it walking. Ten weeks. Ten weeks. And where did you stay? We carried a tent, which we used mostly. We stayed in a few bed and breakfasts when we thought we needed a wash, and a few youth hostels. Did you find it very difficult? Did you find you feet were covered with blisters? erm not blisters, no. My feet just got battered. They I think they got about twenty per cent bigger . Did you discover a lot of Britain you didn't think existed? Oh, yes. Scotland in particular was beautiful. We saw herds of stags and although we never actually walked for a day when we didn't see anyone else, there was a week of walking when we only saw one other person for every day. You just got the feeling of such complete isolation and wilderness. It's beautiful. mhm. And, Carol, I suppose your spare time activities are largely taken up with your family these days? Yes, yes, they are. I'm hoping to get them walking. How old are your children now? Well the elder is thirteen at the end of the week, and the younger one is ten. And erm are they going to become are they boys or girls? They're both girls. Now are they going to be chemists? Well I think they both have a scientific sort of mind. The elder one is particularly interested in science and I shouldn't be at all surprised if they don't become scientists mhm. although I wouldn't push them into it. I think this is something which everybody has to work out for themselves. I'd encourage them. mhm. Well I think you two ladies are very fortunate, and you obviously have come from homes that have encouraged you very much, and have come from schools that have encouraged you very much. erm but I would say, on the whole, my guess is that there are many girls that perhaps could go into science and could make contributions to science but don't do so simply because their families don't understand it and the schools don't support them. Do you think that's fair? It's so hard to say when all along the line I've been encouraged. mhm. Of course I can only say from my own experience. Yes and one can imagine that it might be like that, but of course the women that we meet at university are those who have become scientists very often. I think it's true to say that, certainly at my school, about the age of fourteen of fifteen the girls suddenly decide that they can't do maths and there's no way that they could understand anything scientific, but that, I think, is a lot deeper than just encouragement at school anyway. Maths is absolutely the fundamental stumbling block, isn't it, in a sense? If you can do maths you can probably do most of the rest Yes. I feel and people get very emotional about maths. They suddenly, whether they're boys or girls, they suddenly decide sometime in their teens perhaps they can't do it. It's not because it's the tool of, well, physics anyway and engineering, it's because you have to think in a way that is probably entirely foreign to you. It's not like reading a story, which you have been doing because you're a child and you read children's stories in which you have people and things, it's about entirely abstract ideas and And it's whole new language which is unfamiliar, perhaps? Yes, and a whole new way of thinking about doing abstract things with abstract ideas, which probably at that age you suddenly realize it is abstract and, help, you suddenly can't do it any more. And so far as I can tell, you know, from looking at my children's schooling, the girls seem to be good at maths in the early stages. On the whole the girls are ahead of the boys, so this is a change that occurs in the teens. Well maybe they will follow their mother into chemistry or biochemistry too. Thank you very much erm Pamela and Carol. That's all that we have time for on this subject today. Next week we're going to start a new twelve part series on opportunities in education, in which we shall be looking at various aspects of schools today. Do we have too much education? Are we teaching the right subjects in the right way at the right time? Could parents do more to help their children in school? These are some of the issues that we shall be exploring. For details of the series look in the Radio Times or get a list of the programmes, either from Radio Brighton or by writing to me, Doctor Brian Smith at the Physics Building in the university. I hope that you'll join us next week. Goodbye. university this term, at least so far as the community is concerned, is our Open Day on Saturday June the fourteenth. On that day, everyone and anyone is invited to visit the campus to see what we do here. One of the features of the day will be a series of mini-lectures on just about every conceivable subject, and during the next few Ideas in Action programmes, I shall be talking to some of the lecturers about their topics and, hopefully, whetting your appetites sufficiently to want to join us on June the fourteenth to hear more. I have with me today Ian Miles, who's a Senior Fellow in the Science Policy Research Unit and an expert in unemployment, that is to say you're not unemployed yourself, but you study people who are. I have done, yes. Welcome, Ian. First of all, is high unemployment here to stay do you think? This is a topic which, of course, generates considerable argument and passion. My own belief is that we have had a sea change in the nature of employment in Britain and in other western societies. Certainly, some unemployment now is a result of depressed demand. erm there are a lot of social needs that remain unmet, and meeting those needs would generate more employment, but in many areas of the economy I don't think there's so much need for work as there has been in the past, especially as we're applying new technologies that increase productivity dramatically. We can be producing the same quantity of electronics goods, of many household appliances and so on, with many fewer workers than have been used in past. So I think there's a change in the amount of work that's going to be required in our society. Whether this means high unemployment depends partly on how this work is distributed; whether we keep the same working hours that we've had in the past, for example, whether we work for as many years. If we do keep up our past patterns then I think that inevitably means high unemployment is here to stay. We tend to talk about unemployment in terms of purely economic factors; mhm. what it does to our economy, whether people can afford this that and the other, but surely it has quite a considerable social impact on people's lives being unemployed? Yes. This is, in fact, exactly the topic that I'm going to be addressing in my lecture on the Open Day. I've been doing research that's been inspired by the work of Marie Hoader, who's Emeritus Professor at the university, a social psychologist, and she had researched unemployment back in the nineteen thirties; she studied an Austrian village called Mariental , where practically everybody was unemployed, and late in the nineteen seventies as our group began raising questions about the future of work, she engaged in a review of the research between the thirties and the seventies to see if things had changed. Now the economic circumstances of unemployed people we know have changed a lot. erm we have a welfare state, which erm ensures that very few people are living at absolute poverty — you do have shoes to wear, you do have some sort of food to eat — which wasn't necessarily the case in the nineteen thirties — and people have had different education and training, their lives are very different. So you'd expect there to be a big change in the social impacts of unemployment. In fact, she found in her review that there seemed to be a great of continuity, that again and again over these forty years researchers were reporting similar sorts of social and psychological impacts of unemployment. It was having the same sorts of mainly damaging effects on people's personal lives and on their family lives and so on, and in research that I carried out in Brighton erm over the past three or four years we were looking at these effects — how they were affecting unemployed people in Brighton — and trying to explain them. If it isn't just the money problems of unemployment, what is it? Let's have a look at some of the features that are associated with being unemployed. First of all, presumably, you lose your normal time structure of having to go off and do something on a regular basis. Yes, that's right. That's a very important feature of being unemployed. erm employed people have a regular activity erm on a daily basis, and that activity is carried out with a time structure, so that the hours of the day are different from each other, the days of the week are marked out as being different from each other , the weeks are marked out by being different from each other as well , and also you're situated in time in a different way — you're on some sort of career, you can see some way in which your life is progressing. erm and this tends to disappear when you're unemployed. Although people sometimes think of unemployment as having lots of leisure, in fact leisure only has its real meaning when it's set against work. For unemployed people the free time becomes rather like an empty desert with very, very few oases, and one of the results of our research was to find that, well first of all that unemployed people tend to describe their time in very negative ways, as being empty, as having nothing to do, little activity and so on in it. Those people that had found ways of structuring their time, of organising themselves round routines, or having particular sorts of appointments to make _ and this could take many forms, like, for example, just getting up early in the morning to play a sport game, for example , or arranging to meet other people at particular times _ those people that had got some sort of time structure in their lives and some sorts of regular activities to carry out in their lives erm tended to be a lot less severely affected by unemployment than those people that didn't have these sorts of activities, this sort of time structure. Presumably another effect is that when people work, assuming they enjoy what they're doing, they're doing something which they regard as being reasonably important. Yes. Good work, that is to say, is work that you do because you actually see the point of it and you actually get some pleasure and personal benefit by doing it. Yes. erm I think that's another important thing. In fact, Marie Hoader tried to account for the negative consequences of unemployment in terms of five things that employment provides in our society, five sorts of experience that more and more, as we are industrialized and as more and more people are involved in working in employment, erm have come to be important and provided via employment, and we talked of two of those earlier — one's activity and one was time structure — and you've just raised the issue of feeling that you're contributing to society in some way, that you're part of a collective purpose, that you're not just drawing things out, you're also doing something useful with your time. And the other two things I could mention at this point is that erm this activity, this useful time-structured activity, brings you into contact with other people. It takes you out of your home, out of your immediate family environment and brings you into contact with a much broader range of people, and it provides you with a sort of status. And although we often hear about different jobs being of different sorts of status, they're on a ladder of status, its for unemployed people the situation is very often as if you've actually been kicked off this ladder and this is what people say when they describe being unemployed as being on the scrap heap and so on, it's as if you've been expelled from this particular world where erm people respect you for having a job and know that you're contributing. And we found that all five of these sorts of experiences were expressed much more by the employed people we interviewed than by the unemployed people. We asked people ‘Do you meet a broad range of other people in your daily life?’ erm ‘Do you feel that your time is structured, that you have erm things to do at different times of the day?’and so on. For each of these five areas, employed people would always say ‘Yes, I have a lot of this’ and unemployed people would usually say ‘No, I have very little of this’. The lack of status issue, I think, is very important. Many unemployed people are actually quite invisible in the sense of one of the things that happens when you're unemployed is that you're not actually being taken out of your home environment so much, and unemployed people spend a lot more of their time at home than erm do employed people. There's another piece of research looking at unemployed people around the whole country, which was titled ‘Out of sight and at home’. We asked people to keep a diary of what they were doing and to fill in this diary every half an hour, saying where they were, who they were with and what they were doing, and we were able to see erm first of all that the range of people that you meet decreases when you're unemployed, that you're actually spending more time alone, less time with friends and other people. I think at any particular moment in the day we found that half or more of the unemployed people that we were able to interview were at home at that point in the day erm which is much, much more spent indoors and mhm. out of sight than for employed people. And a lot of the contacts, the social contacts, that were being made by unemployed people weren't very positive ones. They were the sorts of contacts that you have when you're signing on at the Employment Benefits Office, when you're going to a job interview erm and often these are very negative because the experience of signing on isn't a very pleasant experience at all; most job interviews, unfortunately, end with a rejection erm so a lot of these non-routine contacts were quite negatives ones for people. And it's hard, very often, for unemployed people to erm maintain their previous range of social contacts. You feel that you're a bit of burden on your friends, perhaps, because you can't go to the pub and buy a round of drinks, because you're bit of a drag on a lot of activities which involve spending some sort of money. I realize I'm sort of giving a very, very negative impression, and I don't want to give the suggestion either that being unemployed has to be always bad, that all unemployed people are having a totally horrible time all of the time and are feeling very depressed all of the time — that's not the case — but I'm afraid that is more like the average erm situation, the typical situation, than otherwise. People who are erm bright and optimistic about unemployment are really talking about exceptional cases. Ian, I wish we could go on talking endlessly about this because I find the subject quite fascinating and we haven't really talked about the details of your research. I wonder if we could just finish with a very brief comment from you in a positive sense as to what would be your advice to somebody that's unemployed? Speaking as someone with a job I've got to be very careful about giving advice to people who are in a much worse situation than myself, but from the research we did erm it is clear that it's very important erm not just to sink in and dwell on your problems, not just to erm stay at home, not meeting other people, not engaging in activities. In fact, the one thing that erm showed a very high relationship with being depressed was actually sitting watching more television. The more television you watch the more depressed you seem to be . It's important to erm find activities that can bring you into contact with other people and give you a time structure and a sense of status and erm self-esteem. From the research it's clear that there isn't one golden road to these sorts of things. We found all sorts of different ways that different people were achieving these experiences. For some people it would be sports, especially team sports activities. For some people it would be cultural activities. Quite a lot of the young people that were coping erm better with being unemployed were involved in things like erm playing in rock groups, or being involved in erm theatre groups and things like that. People who were involved in voluntary work, or community work, or with the unemployed workers' centre, were also sort of being taken out of themselves more, and these things are important in and of themselves. I think they're also important in terms of not losing your links with the wider society. If you do lose those links then you're much less likely to be able to find a job in the future because still most jobs are actually found through personal contacts of one sort or another. erm but you're also going to know that you're contributing to the society erm and that even if some people in the newspapers and some politicians are dismissing unemployed people and saying that they're scroungers, that that isn't the case for you, that you are erm making a positive input into society, probably a much more positive input than a lot of those people that are critical of erm unemployed people. Ian, thank you very much indeed. We look forward to hearing more from you on the fourteenth of June erm but next week my subject will be based on another lecture topic, quite a different one. John Farrant will be talking about the development of Brighton over the past three hundred years and how patterns of trade and commerce have tended to repeat themselves. Maybe we've got some thing to learn here for the nineteen eighties. Join us next Sunday for another Ideas in Action programme. Until then, goodbye. Earlier this week I received a letter from the headmaster of the Cardinal Newman School in Hove. Commenting on our current series on education, he said ‘I think that the series is an excellent idea’, but he then went on to say ‘It does seem to me rather odd that such a series should have such a heavy university representation and so little input from the teachers’. Well Mr. Feeley, now's your chance. How do you think schools ought to be? Well I think that schools ought to be open. I think that we should have access to the schools for everyone who is interested in education, and I think that includes teachers, so that is why I was very grateful to receive your invitation today, and I think the series is good, but I think that why we want an open society within our schools is because everyone has got a tremendous interest in education until people begin to surround it with jargon or to build walls and barriers which create a closed society. I think that what we're really looking for is a stimulating, exciting involvement of parents, of students, of teachers, of everyone who has an interest in the success of a school, and I think for some years at Cardinal Newman we have been trying to create this open society, which gives access at all levels to all the children and to their parents, and we don't want to close the society in any shape or form. And that is why I think this sort of discussion, this sort of involvement of a wide range of people can create an excellent school and I think that it is the input of the wisdom and the care that we're seeking. Well that, of course, is an excellent advert for Cardinal Newman School. erm Juliette Hunting is a teacher and also a governor of the school. Is it such as a good school as that? Are you such an open society. I mean do you, for example, gives girls a fair chance in your school? Yes, I think we actually positively discriminate to encourage girls to take advantage of this open school. We have almost as many girls as boys in the first year in the sixth form, for instance, which I think is a measure of this success. And are you actually training girls to be girls, or are you training them to be people. We're training girls to be people , as we're training boys to be people. . But don't you find that it's an uphill struggle. Don't you have all sorts of cultural traditions you've got to fight against. I mean girls, their places are in the home aren't they, really? I think that the schools have to fight this image, but I would say that the girls themselves more recently are also changing their ideas of themselves and we are making progress. Ann English is the head of the English Department at the school. This school is an open school, Ann, but is it open after hours? I mean don't you shut your doors and four o'clock and keep people out? . Sometimes I wish we did, but our school, in fact, is open five/six days a week and very often there are activities going on well into the evening. For example, study. Pupils who have had perhaps difficulty in studying at home can stay in our school library until quarter to six. The advance learning unit is open for them to stay on after school and study there as well, and it's also open for all sorts of activities every night of the week. There's are club, creative writing club, a literary club, a book club, as well as two drama workshops — one producing smaller plays with a small group of sixth formers and others concerned in the major school production. As well as being open for activity with the pupils, we're also open for visitors. We like having people into the school, both during hours and after hours. Recently we've had Danny Apsey, the poet, come to talk to a group and next week we're having Ted Hughes, who's going to come and read his poems to us. Nan Ron from the erm London Centre for Dance, he's been and given master classes, and all that kind of activity is going on, which I think makes a very lively and exhilarating school. I'm not a parent of children at your school. However, if I actually wanted to come along and learn some English — I did ‘O’ level English, I enjoyed it immensely, but then I did science in the sixth for and went on to a science career — can I come and study English at your school? Yes, I'd be delighted if you would. I think that we have been, for some considerable time, very interested in having open access to courses for parents and for people who are not of the considered normal age group, and I think that is one aspect of the closed society, and I think we should break free from it. I think we should encourage more people of mature years, may I suggest that, to join the school in a learning capacity and join it during the day if we can. If I may broaden it away from erm the Cardinal Newman School and think probably of a lot of East Sussex Comprehensive Schools, I think we have all been, in the schools, in the last few years, working hard to establish this openness, and I think that the closed concept of the school, the school that locks children out at break or locks children out at dinner time, which only allows parents to come in for a phoney Open Day when there are a few children there, they are things largely, I think, of the past and they are the closed society. I think the closed society is also one in which you have the Grammar School, the Independent School set up, and really they are based upon fear, that if you have an open society academic standards will fall. Over-emphasis on differences leads to the segregation of wealthy children in private schools. It was a philosophy that I think led to the eleven plus. It's the cause of the divisive broad band streaming which I think some comprehensives have been persuaded to use, and I'm forced to say how can a child really value himself or herself if they are placed in the bottom band of such a school throughout the time when they are at that comprehensive? On the other hand, I think there's arguments the opposite way. If you have a completely loose system, if you have complete mixed ability, you're merely going to cause confusion and I would think there's also a likelihood that you will be unfair to your gifted or your talented children. So in a way, what my teachers here and what we are arguing about is that we want a school which cares for individual children, which rejects both extremes that I've mentioned. I think it argues for open access to individual programmes of learning. These can perhaps be achieved by setting in individual subjects. It's a plea which we suggest should make the timetable serve the child and not the reverse, and so what we're doing is we're saying to children erm ‘Yes, you are of the same worth, you are of equal value, you should have the same care, love attention and the same resources’. I think the inadequate yardstick of ‘O’ level is often applied to us to see whether schools that practice this sort of establishment are in fact succeeding, and they are succeeding again and again and again by getting better results than the Grammar Schools did, but by much more important criteria, by the criteria of teaching skills and values. I think they really excel. But are we being realistic? It's all very well in theory, but in practice does it work? Surely children do have different abilities. They are at very different stages. They have very different capacities for study and for education. Surely in a sense you're unfair, for example, to the gifted children by putting them through this mode. If I could just come in here, there are many opportunities for them to express their individual talents. For example, we have withdrawal groups for music, not that their ordinary subjects are disrupted in this way, but it can be so organized on the timetable that they are withdrawn at a different period each week, and getting together, for example , to play in the school orchestra erm is of terrific value. Similarly, children who are gifted perhaps in dance are taken out for a master class and so on. And then with writing, too, they have the opportunity to develop those talents, perhaps in addition to their own erm school writing. They can write at home, they can write after school, they can read it to each other and I think this is tremendous benefit where they're open with each other too and can discuss round the table and evaluate their own work. I think that's a good step towards excellence. Juliette, it seems to me that openness must be represented not just in the way a school carries out its activities, but also the way it's run, the way it's governed. Do you have openness in your governors? Yes, we have a parent governor, a teacher governor and a student governor and I think it's worth saying that our student governor was elected by thirteen hundred out of our sixteen hundred children this year. And I'd also like to come back on this of closed schools in that if we look only at chronological age, which puts a limit on ‘O’ levels, we are shutting doors, because many students — and I see this in the sixth form — are not ready for these examinations at the prescribed age. There's a difference between chronological age and developmental age and we at Cardinal Newman, and many other schools, have this open access sixth form where the children can mix or the students can take courses, not only ‘O’ levels, but there is a wide range of subjects. I would like to ask you a slightly different question. For many years I was a governor of Port Slade School and Comprehensive College and I thought that was a very impressive school, as I am sure you would agree. What I found, though, was that what appeared to be a very good erm system from an ideal point of view was actually terribly hard to cope with so far as the teachers were concerned. It's a very demanding thing. I mean teaching is a demanding job, isn't it. Now how can you cope as teachers with a school in which you are almost on call to all the population twenty four hours of the day, which is, it seems to me, what you're saying? With difficulty, but I think it is fair to say as well it has got great compensations, because if you build walls, if you're hiding, if you're pretending, if you're always subscribing parents and stopping them from coming in you make problems; parents worry and suspect that there are problems behind those closed doors, and I think this is why we have established fifteen different parent teacher groups which meet regularly in different parts of Sussex, from Seaford to Shoreham, to Hove, to Brighton, and in small groups of ten/fifteen/twenty they'll sit down with a teacher and they don't just do fund raising they thrash out the different aspects of their children's education and then they come in and meet in a main committee and I think it is this involvement that enables the parents and the teachers to work very closely together. I think, too, if you know your students, if you meet them outside the classroom in activities, then it makes life in the classroom as well. There is a tremendous spin-off from one to the other. You see them much more as people, you know their interests much more than if they are just there listening to the lesson and so in a way this open access to the teacher, I think, although at times it does give extra pressure in the long run I think it's tremendously beneficial. This series is really about schools, but I think I ought to close by giving you and opportunity of saying something about universities if you want to. . What do you want to say? I think I would say about universities that they are in this country offering a uniquely good service to our children. What a tragedy it is that so many of our talented sixth formers, who really would do well in your universities, who are dying to get there, who queue, fight, struggle, work hard to get there, who have tremendous talents, are denied access, not because of lack of ability but perhaps because people don't realize what a great wealth of talent there is. If I can give one example: everyone knows there is a shortage of doctors. In the last decade at Cardinal Newman School, and I am sure any comprehensive school head could give a similar figure, we must have had six or seven very talented youngsters who got grade As/Bs at ‘A’ level have tried to get into medicine and only a small number have got in. I think they would have made excellent doctors, now they are not doctors. In the same way, we can point to every single course _there have been people who are highly qualified, excellent youngsters — and that is where I fear that the universities are not always given the opportunity to get these talented children in the numbers that I think they deserve. Well thank you very much ladies and gentlemen. That's all that we have time for this week. Next week we're going to take this discussion a bit further. Professor Ron Dore will be talking about the boundaries of education — do we teach the right subjects to the right people at the right time? And of course at the end of this series we have a listeners' forum, and you will have an opportunity of putting your questions to a panel of speakers from the university and from outside the university. Until next week, then, goodnight. Thank you very much indeed. Thank you. Hello. As I promised you last week, this is going to be a second look at that very British of institutions, the Magistrates' Court. I recently found myself speaking to Geoffrey Norman, the Secretary of the Magistrates' Association, about court procedures. As you probably know, about ninety eight per cent of all criminal cases are dealt with by magistrates' court, which is a truly remarkable figure, and I think you have to think about it twice when it's first said. I think the other feature of the system is — and I think people generally don't realize what a remarkable it is — we're just about the only country in the world that has this system, and we are remarkably successful in involving ordinary members of the community in the administration of justice, both in our lay magistrates system and in our jury system. And erm I think generally people don't realize how quite unique that is. erm one thing, of course, which is also not erm very readily understood, is the involvement of the legal person, the Clerk to the Justices, in the system, so that with the three Justices you'll having sitting you'll have sitting below them the legally qualified Clerk, and I suppose it's this particular feature of the system which is difficult for people abroad to comprehend _ how a legally qualified person can be sitting there without dominating the proceedings. I think these days, with Magistrates properly trained, that the position is that the Clerk is not seen to dominate the proceedings. erm people who were in court, say, twenty/thirty/forty years ago perhaps did see scenes where the Clerk was over involved and appeared to be running things, but you don't see that these days. The Chairman will take control on behalf of this two colleagues, and the Court will be seen to be run by the Magistrates, and the Clerk will be there as their legal adviser on procedure and any legal points that arise. So a Court would consist of three Magistrates, one of whom sits in the centre and acts as Chairman That's right. a Court Clerk, who is legally trained and can advise Magistrates about matters of law, but who doesn't take part in the actual decision of the Magistrates? No. The decision, both as to the facts and the law, is for the Justices alone, so it's unlike a judge and jury trial where the judge deals with the law and the jury deal with the facts. In the Magistrates' Court the decision as to verdict and sentence is entirely for the Justices acting on the advice of their Clerk, and of course it is erm true to say that generally speaking Justices will follow the advice of their Clerk, but they don't have to. The decision finally is theirs and they take full responsibility for that decision, and may erm in exceptional circumstances not follow the advice of their Clerk. We seem to have two layers, two levels. There's the Magistrates' Court and then above it there's the Crown Court. Is there any contact between the two? How can there be consistency, perhaps, between Judge and Jury and the magistrate system? Again, it's a very interesting feature of our system and not widely understood I don't think that magistrates are also judges of the Crown Court under the legislation setting up the Crown Court and magistrates do sit in the Crown Court, but these days there's considerable contact between the magistracy and the Crown Court. There will be a liaison judge in the Crown Court who will see it as part of his function to liaise with the lay magistrate and to meet them and to discuss erm such matters as erm sentencing principles with them. And erm oh for many years now there's been a great interest in consistency in sentencing. For example, the Magistrates' Association produce suggestions for these many road traffic cases you've spoken about, which list about fifty odd of the common road traffic offences and make suggestions as to the penalties that might be adopted throughout England and Wales. Now that's an effort in consistency. It doesn't lay down rigid guidelines to be followed, it just suggests erm penalties for average offences committed by first offenders of average means, and it provides a starting point for magistrates to think about. And then of course they exercise their discretion on the actual facts of the case when fixing the sentence. Let's get back to courts just for a moment. What percentage of people actually plead guilty to charges against them? I don't know the actual percentage erm but it's pretty high. I'm afraid you'd have to look up that figure. It is available, of course, in the statistics. It's probably something like eighty or ninety per cent perhaps. I would suggest that it's probably in that region, yes. What happens if somebody wants to plead not guilty? Does it cost them at lot more money? Not at all. It needn't cost them erm any more at all. erm they can conduct the case themselves They don't have to have a solicitor to represent them? No, indeed, and in many cases people erm if the case is relatively straightforward, an ordinary moating case, they do perfectly well doing it themselves because the Court would assist them with the procedure, the Clerk of the Court would assist them with the procedure, and every effort would be made to assist an unrepresented defendant with the procedure as it goes along. If he can't afford a Solicitor and he feels he ought to be represented by a Solicitor, he may apply for Legal Aid, and of course it's public money concerned so I suppose in an ideal society everybody would be legally assisted who wanted to be, but obviously we can't afford that as a country, so that erm generally erm his application would be judged according to certain criteria erm which would suggest perhaps he needed to be represented. Certainly if a legal if a custodian sentence was likely you'd get legal aid. A person who had difficulty with the English language would get legal aid. If there were difficult legal points to be resolved he would get legal aid. So there are two tests basically; one the means test — can he afford it or not, and two the interest of justice test — is it in the interest of justice that this person should be legally aided, and any doubt on that is resolved in the defendant's favour. I think some people rather suspect that magistrates take the side of the police in cases. Is there any basis for that do you imagine? Well of course erm the basis used to be that many courts erm had written above them ‘Police Court’ and I think some of the older courts where this was sort of carved in stone may still have this above them, but Magistrates have gone to great lengths erm in recent times to emphasise this is not a police court, this is a magistrates' court. The police appear before the court as witnesses, of course, in many cases, but their status before the court is just like any other erm witness and they have no greater standing before the court, and their evidence is judged by Magistrates on the same basis as that of any other witness. How do Magistrates decide what penalty to impose? You say they've got some sort of guidance, perhaps through the Magistrates' Association, or maybe through some local starting point tariff if I could put it that way. How do they actually decide in the end what penalty to impose, assuming a person's found guilty of course? Yes. The first consideration, I think, is how serious the offence is and there will be some offences which are so serious that custody may be the only proper sentence. In that type of case erm perhaps the Court will not pay too much regard to the defendant's personal circumstances because they're not going to make that much difference, but if it's not that serious a case the other main consideration that comes into play is the defendant's own personal circumstance. So the first choice really is between erm a sentence which is not an individualized one and one which can be individualized in justice and all the circumstance of the case. And of course what very often happens these days, with such a high level of unemployment, is if it's a fine that's decided upon — and I think something like in three-quarters of the cases dealt with by Magistrates do end up with a fine — that it has to be scaled down because of the erm poor circumstance, poor financial circumstance in which the defendant is. So you may start off by saying well two hundred pounds fits this case according to it's seriousness, but you find that the defendant couldn't possibly afford to pay that and realistically, say, only a fifty pound fine can be imposed. Sometimes that's not quite understood by the public. They just look at the report in the paper and say how on earth was this man fined fifty pounds for this offence. So in those circumstances it is very often wise for a court to explain — look, normally, you'd have got erm two hundred pounds for this offence, but because of your poor financial circumstances erm we're imposing a fine of fifty pounds in your case. We're always reading that prisons are far too overcrowded these days. Do you think magistrates send too many people to prison? No, that is a complete myth, actually. I haven't met the type of Magistrate who enjoys sending anybody to prison. erm Magistrates only send people to prison because they feel the circumstances of the case justify it and erm I think in the public mind erm the criticism is more often the reverse, that Magistrates are too soft, and I've heard Lord Hailsham say more than once that if we do pay a price for the lay magistrate system it is leniency because what happens, and the difference between the lay magistrate system and the stipendiary system or the Crown Court system is that Magistrates do sit in threes, and what that tends to do is lead to compromises in sentence because discussion between three people irons out extreme views and you do tend to end up with a very well considered compromise view, which probably does tend to be more lenient than a sentence imposed by any one person who might himself take a very serious view of the circumstances. Over the years some penalties have been done away with and others have been introduced. Would you like to see any new type of penalty introduced? I think yes. I think the one type of penalty we lack is something between full custody and non-custody. We have far too great a gap between these two states which I think all magistrates are very conscious of and which all defendants are very conscious of, and particularly from the public point of view again erm the present alternatives to custody are seen by members of the public as soft options, are seen as a let off. I think we do have room in our system for some semi-custodial measure. Sort of weekend prisons? The Magistrates' Association put forward day imprisonment. The All Party Penal Affairs Group of the House of Commons and others have put forward weekend imprisonment. Something like that. I mean perhaps it could take the form of Adult Attendance Centres, but erm we need something which is seen to be punitive but which falls sort of full deprivation of erm liberty. You are Secretary of the Magistrates Association and you have something like twenty five thousand members out of a total of something like twenty seven thousand Magistrates. That's correct. And you obviously believe in the system? Oh, indeed, yes. I think that erm it's a very healthy system. I think erm I think it's a very desirable object to involve members of the community in the erm administration of justice. I think our discussion here has come a full circle really. I believe that we achieve this very successfully, and when you bear in mind the pressure under which the Magistracy have been in recent times, with erm industrial action, demonstrations, which have brought them to the forefront of the attention, I think it's a remarkably achievement that the Magistrates have come through this with the public in general terms satisfied with the performance of Magistrates in the discharge of these very onerous functions. And you believe that it will survive into the future? Well I certainly hope so, yes. Thank you very much Mr. Norman. Thank you. Well that concludes our look at Magistrates' Courts. Next Sunday we shall be bringing you the last Ideas in Action programme before Christmas. It'll have a special winter flavour and feature Amos Chatfield as he talks about Christmases past and his boyhood encounter with the ghost of Stanmer Woods. Join us next week. Until then, goodbye. Court rise I'm sorry for the five minute delay most of you, I had to seek out about a administrative matter, an administrative matter, nothing to do with the evidence or the place for Mr you had told us earlier in the week about several situations, as the management company . In nineteen eighty seven and into nineteen eighty eight was there any other management company apart from dealing with projects? No there wasn't and at that time I think owned developments and also that's correct were some of the directors of P L C also directors of developments? they were indeed and also of yes yes, would you wait there please I've heard of tactics Mr but but it's a bit hard to stay awake well of course it is I mean er, it's er, it's essential really, it, keeps you Mr have I got it right that you er do all the estimates for the management the budgets? Yes that's correct that correct what sort of time scale was it?, er, a, a block of er flats or apartments er that are going to be built on the site er, when were the estimates made?, or when were they made in nineteen eighty seven? they're usually made between six and eight months before the first person would move in so what stage of er building would be reached when the estimates are made? er the building er effectively would have only just commenced at that stage what you're considering a, a four month's building or a of that kind? no the, the building plan was normally about ten months ten months, I see so somebody might move in before the building was complete er, there was, there was a criteria to meet before anyone was er permitted to move in it well obviously the whole block might not have been completed in its entirety before somebody moved in just to get the general picture, let me an exact period, let's get estimates because we have no idea, er, so estimates might be made or the management costs, four months or six months would you say before anybody moved in? er six to eight months six to eight and again of course it's hard to say but er, when would the brochure, the sales brochure for that development be printed and available the sales brochure would normally be available for the day that this, the show flat was open on site, er and again roughly when would that be in with the building? that, that would roughly be er three or four months into the building or six months before first occupation yes, forgive me Mr if I want to ask somebody some questions about the brochure and er the layout and so on and I find out Counsel hasn't, I gather from Mr that Mr would be the person I ought to ask, is that right? my Lord that would be great, yeah I'm sorry I'm not sure about that my Lord oh, is that what Mr said, I'm not stopping you asking this witness at all, I don't want, you mention the brochures and I don't want to ask him questions, the kind I want to ask, er, with which they're not asked by Counsel, I shouldn't ask at this stage anyway, but by all means ask Mr about it, I just thought Mr said, when I tried, asked him about it, very understandably, Mr the man, cos you are totally free to ask about it of course my Lord these are the matters I would like to explore at time very well thank you can I go back to where we were yes, Mr I'm sorry what's wrong? the juror in the back row has asked if the witness could speak up if I may give you a word of advice, you may think it's rude, but when Mr is asking questions try not to turn down towards him, if you try and face across the jury, that's what carries the voice if you're looking at them, if you turn to your left, a bit of your head goes down a bit, it's only natural, you're not as used to courts as Mr is, er, he, he, your, it, your voice smothers, it's not a question of shouting it's just looking in the right direction, yes Mr go on now Mr what I'm asking you about is the space see how I'm speaking out so try and speak up like this so the jury can hear . The brochure is published, printed and published about four months into the building, is that right or not? that would be approximately correct, yes and again as an approximation that is when the show flat is available, the public are coming on site to view the brochure is usually prepared for the show flat opening, yes yes and what, and I'm, I'm talking about nineteen eighty seven, before eighty seven what was the time schedule, I know it will vary, from development to development for the final sales so to speak, how long will it take?, I appreciate it varies it will vary depending upon the number of flats in the block, but gener obviously generally you're looking at an eighteen month's sales period yes so will this be right, that somebody towards the end of the sale period er might be looking at a brochure that was printed at least eighteen months ago and maybe longer? not generally towards the end of the sale period because you would be looking at er the brochure or the costs been put together eight months before the first flat was sold, erm a new brochure following a new estimate probably would have been prepared after about twenty months, that is to say er that would have been prepared before the last people entered the er flats are you saying, I want to clear my mind, that in the course of the sale period from first to a different, second additional brochure might be introduced, is that what your saying? the brochure may well have been updated during the sales period may well, well what was the company's policy, to update in the sales period or to use the same brochure? it depends on the length of the sales period well what was the criteria used, whether to have a second edition or not? er, if the, if the, er service charge costs had gone up in the meantime, obviously after you reached the end of the first accounting period you have some accounts to go on and you have a much better idea of what the costs are actually going to be well I wo wonder if you could forgive me address the question if you can, what was the criterion or what was the basis on which a decision is made, whether they have a second additional brochure or, or not? it's not a second edition of the brochure it's just an updating of the figures that are included within the brochure well can we look please at one brochure, er take er C thirty one,C page thirty one it actually begins at twenty nine I want to ask you one or two questions about this, have you got page twenty nine? I have do you know the site at er ? yes I do on page thirty one that rather grand building shown on the left hand side, is that ? I don't know is that building anywhere near the site? I don't know but I thought you knew the site I know the site, I don't know that building do you know the lake on the right? I do not there's is a, no lake near the development is there? I don't know but, how many times have you been there? once I see well er, when you talk about updating er on page thirty one we have there set up at er Mr service charges, service co service parking costs, total and then personal costs total, estimated weekly total, are you saying the rest of the brochure was to remain unchanged and that portion of it would be changed? that the portion relating to the service and apartment costs would be updated certainly, erm well in other words that means reprinting that page doesn't it?, page thirty one it would or sticking on top of it er loosely er amendment that's correct well what course was adopted by if it needed updating? I think the page was usually re-printed as I recall but you were the person who actually worked out the, what costs would go in this document weren't you? we supplied the figures no not we, you people who worked for yes, through me, yes but you were the person at most directly responsible for the provision of these figures is that correct right? correct thank you and you would accept wouldn't you, that if we have a brochure, let us say printed for next January, January nineteen ninety four alright, and I came along as a retired person in the Spring of nineteen ninety five or indeed the Summer of nineteen ninety five, fifteen, sixteen, seventeen, eighteen months later, those brochure figures will inevitably be out of date in the sense of being inaccurate wouldn't they? those, those brochure figures are updated each, first of September now no, not now, I'll come to now, I'm asking you about then oh I'm sorry I thought you was talking about ninety four, ninety five no, no, I was giving you an example to what would happen on the time scale, but let me go back to January nineteen eighty seven, if the brochure was printed in January nineteen eighty seven if the brochure was printed in January nineteen eighty seven and I went to buy in March, April, May nineteen eighty eight, the figures in the service charges would be out of date they would be, yes but the brochure would still be on the desk so to speak of the sales office as far as I'm aware, yes you said you now update once a year, is that right, every September? that's correct when was that policy implemented by the company? erm I recall that would have been probably nineteen eighty nine a year after the article yes am I to understand from that answer Mr , that at some stage after the Daily Telegraph article there was a review in the about er what should be published in the brochures about service charges yeah, there was a continuous review at all times on such matters what, no doubt but it slightly avoids the answer, was there a specific review about updating service charges after the Telegraph article? I can't say that it was linked to the Telegraph article, obviously this matter well when did it take place? this decision to update once a year as I recall nineteen eighty nine who took that decision? I think it was a decision that was er suggested by by our board now er limited company's don't really make suggestions, who from the make the suggestion? myself ah, thank you you made the suggestion, to whom did you make that suggestion? I can't recall well would it be to Mr ? I'd be speculating if I said yes, I can't recall well who would you need to make the suggestion that the brochure should be updated once a year, to whom would you normally make that suggestion, if it needs to be made? it would be the matter that would have been raised at our board meeting and relayed on to does Mr sit on the board of he was a member of the board, but he didn't usually attend the meetings and what is your present position now in terms of? I'm managing director of managing director, who's your chairman? er there is no chairman following the er management buy out the position is, still remains open I, I understand, but you were a director in nineteen eighty nine? yes well who was the senior director at in nineteen eighty nine, er, er apart of course Mr who was a member of your board in nineteen eighty nine if I recall there was a divisional structure which er comprised of a number of companies within the division and there was a managing director of that division who would have reported back to the board who, who was that managing director? I believe that would of been Mr Mr but you must have therefore suggested it to them then that er the service charges needed to be updated once a year as I recall that would be correct, yes now what gave the reason for that so we can all follow it quite clearly see if I've got this right, was the reason for the updating of the service charges once a year in the brochure, the fact that if you didn't update the brochure might mislead a prospective purchaser? no, the brochure would not necessary have been out of date, it depended when the first occupation was, if er the first occupation was in July or August it may not have been necessary to update the brochure on Sept on the first of September that one, but you see you've introduced a policy of updating once a year mm and that policy hadn't existed before well the brochures became, were dated each year, the service charge, a date was put on the service charges each year, that's not to say they were,th they automatically changed, it depends on how long the scheme had been open I wonder if we can get to the point of my question, it may be my fault but I will try again, the reason I am suggesting to you was the decision was made to update the service charges once a year was because if you didn't update the, the existing brochure might mislead, is that right or not? er the existing brochure might become out of date depending on how long the scheme had been open I didn't ask you about out of date, I said might mislead a prospective purchaser that is the reason isn't it why you would update? we would update so that we would have current figures in the brochure, yes er, but, the logical consequence of that is if you didn't have current figures the existing brochure if used might mislead it is possible but that was the purpose of updating wasn't it?isn't it? Mr the purpose of updating is so that you have current information, yes and avoid misleading the prospective purchaser about the service charge yes thank you, got that. It therefore follows as night follows day that before you started updating your brochures anyway, there was always a risk that the brochures that were on site might be out of date and therefore I'm not suggesting deliberately, but innocently, might mislead an elderly purchaser, because the figures were out of date, that's right isn't it? but it was also stated very clearly that the brochures were based on a budget figure, it was an estimate and it would be er the subject of an adjustment at a later stage you see Lord is here very splendidly to argue the case and at the moment I'd like you to address the question, I'll ask it again, the question is, I think it's a simple one, it follows from your answer about why the brochures had to be updated, but when there was a time when they were not updated before nineteen eighty nine, there was a risk wasn't there that with the brochures printing service charges towards the end of the sales period someone might have been mislead by the brochure? that's right isn't it? I, I don't believe that to be the case because further information was provided to the er legal representatives of the prospective purchase indicating very clearly that the brochures were an estimate, or the costs in the brochures were an estimate or the cost in the brochures were an estimate and therefore it would be subject to adjustment you mean a solicitor's letter to another solicitor during the conveyancing period yes that's what you mean? yes indeed but if the elderly pensioner doesn't read all the solicitor's correspondence or the solicitor doesn't communicate every fact of the correspondence but relies solely on the brochure they're carrying in their pocket or their handbag the brochure taken in isolation might mislead might it not? I, I don't ever believe that the brochure should be taken in isolation I see, let's look at page thirty one please are there hidden costs, do you see that? yes whose wording is this? are there hidden costs, the answer to this is definitely no, whose wording? the wording of the company or the person who put the brochure together yeah, it's not the wording of a company cos companies can't write, it's only human beings that can write, which human being is responsible for this wording? the wording would have been put together by sales and marketing people in conjunction with their agent Mr you see various people are giving evidence, and Mr wants to ask the right person, certain questions, namely the person who er devised those words and er you are er somebody in a very important position er and er he's trying to get it from you, and as he's pointed out to you a company can't sit down and produce in some corporate way a phrase someone or two human beings or more have got to do it and he wants to know if you can help us er who, who that was, that's, that's all you see, he doesn't want to ask you about it, no doubt er, er in the same way as he'd want to ask a person that actually devised a word, d'ya see? I understand now try and help him yes I, I would suggest that I, I don't know the particular individual who put the words together, but you would have to ask Mr the marketing director for that information thank you is Mr sitting in this court room? is he and you think he is the person from best able to say whose work is in this brochure? yes I do did you have anything to do with the wording? no nothing at all in fairness Mr that is what Mr said I understand earlier on I do understand that yeah but I, I'm just making sure with this witness oh course what the position is oh , we don't want to lose him before explore it, of course do explore it with him, that's what he said you'll have to ask Mr about it yes and I've just verified that this witness agrees on that matter and that he has nothing to do with it, is that right? correct but what you have to do with it is the compilation of the figures that go into the little table under so what would it cost, those are your figures aren't they? the figures er relating to the service and er maintenance and management costs yes you mean the first half of the table? the first half, yes you're responsible for those? well not even the freehold security, that was agreed, that's the decision of the er P L C board and as to what level that will be at, we are responsible for the, the service and management costs so is this right? not, should we try avoiding we and talk about I cos it, if it's we it might be somebody else you see yeah you probably understand that, is it you who's responsible for the seven pound thirty five figure? I am, yes and equally responsible on that one for eleven pounds, five P that's correct and for the fourteen pounds, seventy correct I am grateful now will you turn to page seventy eight in the centre This is you know is the brochure for er Westcliff on Sea correct and on page seventy eight there is one of those tables, it follows from your previous answer, that you would be responsible for the figures of six pounds, thirty five at the top, nine pounds, fifty five and twelve pounds, seventy that's correct I'm sorry page Mr you said it page seventy eight I was looking at something else, thank you very much yes and you say P L C, somebody at P L C will be responsible for the freehold security that's correct they remain constant though don't they? for the first twenty one years yes yes, that isn't variable?, no, er now can we look Mr at the print below the table, costs, questions and answers we find that many people considering purchasing a apartment have similar questions can I ask you this, would you personally ever deal with people who were considering purchasing a apartment? er, only on occasions, normally er it would be dealt with by the sales and marketing people why, that's what I thought, but would you on occasion have dealt with people who wished to buying or considering buying? only if there was a particular question relating to er the management of the scheme the management the management of the development yes what, I simply don't know, if had an on-going site, where the public was going in would you visit it, in the normal course of your business? I would tend not to until the scheme was actually in management and running up and running yes so you intend to deal more with people who already bought and were in that's correct is that fair? that's fair, yes yes it says we would like to take this opportunity to answer some of the questions you might have and then the question comes will the management charges greatly increase?did you have any part to play in the posing of this question in the brochure? no but did you know it was there? yes but come as not surprisingly I assume you have read the relevant brochures that's correct read the answer the answer is no have appointed the U K's leading management specialist, management services Limited for several reasons, the firstly because of their profession and caring attitude to the management of housing , secondly, because time has shown, the management charges rise at a rate either slightly below or in the level of inflation , did you have any responsibility at all for that sentence? and secondly the time I didn't write that sentence but I was asked if, er, that was a reasonable, er if it was reasonable for that statement to be made, and I agreed it was when were you asked that question and by whom? I was asked that question by Mr erm prior to the production of the first brochure with that statement in it when was that statement first incorporated into the brochure?, what year approximately? I would have said er nineteen eighty five or nineteen eighty six, but cannot recall precisely something in that time? yes er is this fair?, was it Mr idea that it should be incorporated into the brochure or somebody elses? it was Mr that posed the question to me and I understood that it was his idea and who would take the decision as to whether it should go in the brochure?on your understanding that would have been a decision of Mr but you were consulted? I was did you have the power of vetoing it if you wanted? yes if you thought it had yes you did? yes so it required your sanction and approval, that was the position? yes be it nineteen eighty five or nineteen eighty six, it may not matter, did you know previous to that in February nineteen eighty seven, he as chairman had given instructions that this brochure should be withdrawn, did you know that? I was aware of that, yes aware of it at the time, at or about the time when the instruction was given I can't recall as to the exact time when I learned of that instruction, but I was aware that the instruction had been given well not exact, obviously, I'm not saying you remembered if it was a Tuesday morning or a Wednesday afternoon, but he gave you instructions according to Mr in February nineteen eighty seven, would it be about that time that you learnt of the instructions? it would have been about that time, yes, or soon after by the spring of nineteen eighty seven? yes were you aware of the reason why the instruction was given?to withdraw it it, it may have been because I had raised some concerns, concerning that particular er statement ah you had raised that concern, when and with whom? I don't recall precisely with whom, but I raised the concerns towards the end of nineteen eighty six or at, or at the beginning, beginning of nineteen eighty seven and what were your concerns? my concerns is, my concerns were at the time that we, we might not be able to continue with that statement because it might become inaccurate yes and might therefore mislead if it, if we continued to keep it in, yes because it might mislead a purchaser well I, I anticipated that the management charges would rise over and above inflation and I suggested we should, should not continue with that statement and the reason for that was because if left in it might mislead a prospective purchaser correct thank you so within either a year or maybe something approaching two years of the existence of the brochures with those words in you raise the concern, that it might be misleading if left in yes with whom did you voice that concern? I've already stated I do not recall er the person I voiced that concern with at the time but to whom would you normally address that concern in the normal course of your business? it would have been a matter that I may have raised at our board meeting, again, again, that would have been passed on I understand erm Mr because you realize in the short time that wording has been in the brochure, that it would not be possible to keep the management charges at the level of inflation or below it there were pressures coming on the company which would mean that we could not continue to do that when you known exact reasons why, but the conclusion was you couldn't keep the management charges at a rate of the level of or below inflation I came to that conclusion at that time right. Were you present when Mr gave evidence in this court? for most of the time, yes were you present when he defined for the benefit of my Lord and the jury, what was meant by management charges in that sentence yes I think he gave a figure of one pound, fifty nine was what was referred to by the phrase management charges in that sentence I recall that figure, yes is he right that that is what it intended to be referred to? yes he is well can you explain please as the man who devised these charges and assessed them and work them out how by some process of reason anybody reading that sentence gets the clue that when it says management charges will rise at a rate below the level of inflation, it refers to one pound fifty nine, how can you understand that? you, you could not work out that it was one pound fifty nine, you could, you could assume that it was a proportion of that six pound thirty five well, why, why do you assume that? because it's talking purely about management charges, a, the cost of the service being provided by now Mr look at the wording at the top, service, apartment costs, well that means the cost of running the apartment doesn't it?, apartment costs yes, and then it says ordinary management services no, no hold, hold a moment, the first line apart from cost, that's plain English isn't it? yes what the apartment costs, right correct all maintenance, warden and management services six pounds, thirty five, right correct , look at the sentence below, will the management charges greatly increase, the answers no because time has shown the management charges rise at a rate below the level of inflation I suggest it to you to the ordinary person, they would think that the management charges there meant the costs that are listed above see I knew what I understood by it and that was that it was management oh charges well you had the advantage of inside information, I'm talking about the ordinary punter, if you forgive the expression, the ordinary customer you realize don't you that there's no clue in that sentence that management charges is limited to a small element of the six pounds thirty five I agree that in hindsight it could have been clearer well that's very kind of you that's another basis on which it might, albeit innocently, had mislead a prospective purchaser, correct? it, conceivably entirely inn innocently, yes it could yeah, I'm not suggesting it was done wickedly, and deliberately, I'm suggesting with hindsight it's sloppy and, and uncomfortably misleading, you follow the point don't you? as I said it could have been worded better yes, well I expect you'd say that worded better in the interests of a vulnerable section of society to take this er correct? Like normal people have their computers set up so that they print out. Before I went out, I You muck it up. I printed out On purpose. I printed out. Didn't I? Yes I know but from Wor Works. No I didn't print out from Works, I printed out from Diary. I went into Diary and I printed out my appointments for next week. And I didn't get funny numbers and silly squiggles, cos I used a reasonable package and not WordPerfect. So what is your problem young lady? Oh there's no problem with me. Did you want to print, did you want to print something? Yes she's she's . Yeah I'm writing a letter to mothers I'm writing a letter to mum and I just wanted it to be . She can read it from the screen, she doesn't need it printed out . Yeah but she wants to I'll write a letter to Chris And other people. Yes. Right. Well Chris. Not to other people. Right. So, would we like to try printing something out from WordPerfect? Save that now Sarah. finished. No but you save it before you finish. Can I just finish my sentence please, Right. so I know what I'm talking about? Yes. have I got to finish my sentence? How did your lesson go? I don't know. I haven't had time to think yet, I've only just got back in on the phone and sorting out the printer. It was alright it wasn't, I wasn't I wasn't looking forward to it much, it was better than expected. I managed to c to cover virtually the complete G C S E chemistry course in an hour and a half. And, actually it was more than an hour and a half. It was an hour and a half plus about ten minutes cos those C ninety tapes are about five minutes too long on each side. Erm I'm afraid dinner's gonna be a little later than I anticipated cos that chicken is quite big isn't it? Mm. Also we seem to be awfully short of knives. We are. I think they must in the van. I don't think so. I noticed there were very few there yesterday. I haven't got anything to do the vegetables with. There were some not too long ago but ? Well I think they're in the van John actually, or you've used them to stir paint with and other things. Could be. Secretary. Is that how you spell secretarial? Yeah. Yeah? Ooh! I was going secre . Two more to go. John. Right. Okay. Would you like to save that? Do you know how, do you know how to save it? No. How do you save it Sue? Well I I do F ten but er that may be set up differently you see. Everything has been changed. I would try F ten. Just press F ten? Yeah. Mhm. If you don't know what to do right. Right. Now this is set up differently cos this is set up very sensibly, so that you can fill in who wrote it, when, what date and what it's about, and when you try and find it later it's easier to find instead of scrapping through lots of files that don't have a long document . Yes and also take long long time if you do the sort of volume of work that I have to do. Now that's true. Okay. So the date document name. What do you want to call it? If you press N N? N for name, it'll let you type in the docu document name. Erm what do you want to call it? Mumsy. Letter to mum. Mum. Mumsy. Call it mumsy then. Is that how you say it? Mumsy? Well it's your word, you spell it the way you want . No that's fine. M U M S Y. That's fine. Mumsy. Right. Erm document type . Oh so if you press enter it'll come down one line. Enter. That big key on the side. Or return. That one? Yeah. And delete, delete to get rid of the S M. That's it, that's delete, that one's backspace. Right. And then if you put your initials. My initials. Without the full stops. So that's it. Shall I do it in capitals? If you, if you wish. How about S L P? Why does everyone want me to put L in? It's really I only want you to cos it'll make it up to three. That's fine. Enter. And then T for author. S L P. Enter. You can guess who the typist is. S L P. And what's the subject? S for subject. Letter. Lett letter. . Letter. Erm Okay . And K for key words. What are the key words? What are, what's the main point of the letter, what's it about? Love. Okay. Luv L U V, or L A V as the young lady over here says. L O V E. I said love. Did you love? Enter. wicked woman and enter yes. Thank you. What does abstract mean? Now enter again. Oh. Now document to be saved, C S U mark Sarah dot mum , okay? Now enter again. Don't blame me if this ridiculous replace existing ? Yes. press Y? Yeah. Yeah. Saving . And now try and print it. Now do you know how to print? Shift F seven. Shift F seven. Shift, shift F seven. Hold down shift and keep it down and press F seven. And let's try and print one page. Right switch the printer on. Cos we're just going to practice. Switch your printer on. black button at the side. Right. Mhm. Now press. I don't like these high technology things . Then guess one for page. Hang on, it's two for page actually. One is document press. Oh two okay yes. P for page. Some of us use numbers and that's probably why the printer prints out in numbers. Whereas I use letters. Right And what have you got? Right. in a code. got lots of exciting stuff there. So what sort of printer do you think you're talking to? I checked it, it says it's A dumb one. printing to that one. Right hold down shift F one. Hold down the shift and press F one. I just did. Oh do you want me to hold You have to exit from that first if you want to Alright we'll, we'll use the do a different thing. Pardon? F seven. Will that do? With shift or not? F. No, just F seven on its own. Save document ? Yes. Save document ? No. No. Cos you've already saved it. Right. You might as m exit WordPerfect ? No. Right. I don't know if we're going to be able to print anything here, but let's have erm F one for help. As it says up here,press F one for help . Press F one again. And these are your function keys and what they do so if you ever need to know what to do, F one F one, and it tells all you need to know. What do we want to do? Set up . So shift and F one should give us set up, so first of all press enter to exit help. Now shift and F one. Right do we want to set up the mouse to display the environment, or what? I think it's environment. Never know with this. Try E for environment. Erm units of measure, alternate keyboards . No I don't think it's this do you? No. Okay so No it isn't. escape. Sue might know but she's not telling us. Erm It's set up printer. Right where, where is, where does that come under mouse, display, environment, initial settings, keyboard layout, location of files. So we're in the wrong set up. So escape from this and we'll go into initial set up I think. F sev F one F one. Shift F Oh okay. Go on. Okay which one do you think it is? Try F one F one again and we'll get Shift and F one? It's, no. No just F one F one. It isn't that. F one. Right, and that tells us It's shift F seven. Right shift F seven gives us print. Okay. Right okay. So Yes but it tells you all the facilities of print. So F seven. So esc so enter to escape from help Enter to escape from that first. cos we're in help. And now shift F seven. Sh shift Oh. F seven. I haven't she pressed shift there we are. Right. Then just Now you're trying to save a document now. You didn't do what you thought you were doing. It said, save document, and it had a Y there, meaning it was going to do that if you pressed enter. You pressed enter. It doesn't on yours it does all this, before you can get into print. Does it? Yes it does John. Isn't it a swine? So what you just put there is nothing. Enter. You delete it. Just press enter there. Right. Document to be saved ? I, document to be saved, I normally just do F ten. Right. But when you do shift F seven for print on this it comes up with all this This is a this is a sidetrack. Jus just press enter and get out of this. Error. Access denied that's alright. Erm escape. Now try shift F se hold down shift and press F seven. And what did we want to do select printer looks like a good idea. It's It's, it's selected a Panasonic Okay try that. K X P Eleven Twenty Four. Okay so press S. I B M Proprinter X Twenty Four . Now you've got your num-lock on. With the num-lock on every time you try and go to the cursor keys, arrow keys, you put peculiar numbers in instead. So take num-lock off. Go up one. And press enter and we'll now select an I B M Proprinter. That's done that and now print page. Just P. Put P. Put, put your, your printer on. Switch your printer on. Well it's not working very well. Okay. Well this morning I dropped in my briefcase there, copies of things that I printed out, all lovely. Well what's gone wrong then? We didn't do anything. Did we? No. I've done, did nothing different to what I normally do when I When I normally do it, and it didn't do what it normally does. I haven't touched anything. Have I? No. No. Do you want to have a go? Well I'll just do a little trick. If you'd like to get into, if you move over that way. Now if you'd like to get into the print menu again. Remembering how you did it, with a little help from your friend over here. And set it back to a, to a Panasonic K X P Eleven Twenty Four, which will be on the list. And Sue will tell you how to do it. And I'll set this up so it thinks it's a Panasonic K X P Eleven Twenty Four. Won't I? Shift F seven. Yeah. What's it say? It says creation date, document name , document summary in other words. Enter. Document to be saved ? Okay just press enter. Access denied . Access denied . Escape. Oh. Erm Do F seven. Shift as well? No. Save document yes or no ? Yeah. Enter enter enter. What does it say now? Document summary . Okay? Do try and print it again. We're trying to sort it out. Shift F seven four to resume printing. Shift F seven four. Right. So let's cancel the print job we've got in. Should we? Yeah. Star is all jobs. All jobs, just enter S. Cancel jobs. Cancel which jobs ? Star. Three. Cancel all the jobs ? Yes. Now they should all be cancelled. And select printer. Panasonic K X P Eleven Twenty Four and enter. Okay. Print page, P. Am I too heavy? No no. No. And we've got that document in at the moment. We don't want that. So, we'll use the big . Exit WordPerfect ? Yes. Cancel print jobs ? Yes. So that's just got out of WordPerfect. We'll have to get back into WordPerfect and load your file. And print it. W P. F five. If you do end it should go down to the end. Do you know the file number? No. Right well let's start Wait a minute, wait a minute. Now just don't get snappy. Pardon? Don't get snappy. I hadn't noticed that I was. Did you think it was me getting snappy? So if you can try and explain to Sarah what you're doing, she'll know how to do it next time. I don't know myself . Ah well. So. The file extension, the one, one which I saw was dot mum. So if you set file mask and look for files ending dot mum it should pull it out. It's nice and warm on that. Mm . Sit in the chair. Sit on the chair. Mother. Sit on the chair . Mum. Well what? The file . Why don't you sit on the chair and do it? Come on. Can I stick the telly on mum ? You've created a used directory. You know I sometimes find with some of my students it is very counterproductive to have their mother in on the lessons. You know they get all ratty sometimes. Yeah yeah I know you find it hard to believe but they do. Have you found that file yet? No. Would you like me to find it? Have you got any idea what you called it? Sarah. Why don't you use Ferret, and find any files written today. So if you come out of WordPerfect. Well it might If you boo has that been booted up with that in? how do you mean? No. The computer's switched on when that's pressed in. Cos I haven't checked your No no no. rubbishy thing for viruses. No. Okay. Right. No save, get out of WordPerfect. It's rubbish WordPerfect. Isn't it? Right. You just enter. Jus just Ferret and it'll tell you what to do. Make sure you're in C colon backslash. Are you? No. Well it doesn't make a lot of difference, but er it might be an idea to be in C colon backslash. And then what do you do? Set a floppy disk . Do I just do C colon? C D space backslash enter. And your prompt now says, check that your prompt is C colon backslash. Set a floppy so it can be written to in drive A. Ferret needs to know the date a file was written . So you now type F three will do instead of typing Ferret. No sorry. Yeah type Ferret. And then today's date, which is Backslash. No. Space. Space. Today's date, which is? O nine. O nine. O nine slash No not backslash, slash. O nine slash O four slash ninety three. And that should find all files written today. It'll pull out quite a lot of erm . Now just say no. It's in the instructions there, say no to all these. But if a file comes up that looks like Sarah's file, and you fancy copying it to that floppy you can say yes and it'll copy it on there. Okay. And the other thing is were you running from the hard drive or from that floppy?cos I didn't want the tape-recorder travelling. people are like. Right you don't want that one. Or that. Or that. Have you got the right date ? Well hang on don't get rid of that what's on the screen. W P fifty one. Well press F three. Is it the ninth of the fourth? Did you check the date? Is it the ninth of the fourth ninety three today? Friday April the ninth. Which is the ninth of the fourth eighty three in English format. Okay. I wonder if it does it in American format. It's always worked before. Right it's going to do it ninth of the fourth ninety three. Okay,mirror file ? No. You could sit down if you want. I prefer this cos it makes my back ache. Okay. Mirror back ? No. And it's off through the directories now. Works ini . No. Works Alarm . No. Anything in Works . No. P F M . No. These are all my diary files, P F M. So that's another no. Anything in P F M Oh wait a minute perhaps it was on the A drive. Perhaps it was. It's not P F M. Not that. Or that. Or that. No. Saying no. try the A drive is that okay? Well I'll try the A drive. Erm I don't know how Ferret works on the A drive. Oh I've used it on the A drive before. Is there a copy of Ferret on that? I don't know. I don't know on that . Oh okay I've got an idea how to use Ferret I think. Carry on. Right. So if you change to the A drive. Erm just A colon. Oh. Right and now if you type, I don't know where Ferret is. Erm try, try, try Ferret and today's date. Ferret space today's date and see if it can find anything. Right erm version of Ferret okay. So let it go. Let's look it up on C drive. Erm no we don't want that so just keep saying no. Or you can do control and C and it'll finish it off. Hold down control, press C, and that interrupts the batch file. Right I will have a little look, do you want to have a little look? I'll have a look. On the A drive D I R. Oh dear.? No backslash I'm sorry slash I'm sorry about that. D I R slash S, which gives you sub-directories. Yeah. Erm slash O minus D. That one should be O not zero. Slash order minus D, which is reverse date order. Okay. Erm slash P. So it'll pause and show it on the screen. Okay see what that finds. Anything written today? You're just looking for a date of today. No Not there. nothing on there. Okay. Nothing there, they're all twenty firsts. ?No nothing on there. . Anything there on the mon There's one, Sarah mum. That's the one. So you are in C S U done that. Hang on, hang on. You are on the A drive. That's why we couldn't find it on C drive. Ah yeah that, sorry about that And it's in C S U large and it's Yes. called Sarah dot mum. Yeah. So press any key to continue just to finish that out. Finish that off. And then, if Sarah'd like to go back into WordPerfect, you find her file which is in A colon backslash C S U backslash large Sarah dot mum. Okay? So if you'd like to move out of the seat, Sarah can come and find her own file. You don't W P from there. Do we? You're still on the A drive. No that's what I want I'm tired now. I can tell that, you were tired before. Mm so am I, my eyes are killing me. Right F five. What does that do? Tell her what it does. Brings up your list of files. All the files that you've got on the A drive. Ah. Which is the floppy disk which is in there. We weren't working on the hard drive. Right if you have a look at what has come up on the screen, on the screen. You got C S U. So if you end right backslash'll take away those stars. Type in large. Hang on can I just interrupt here? You're on the C drive. Oh Oops. Sorry. Erm get out of that. Okay. Right. Okay let's get out of that. Now hang on you're, you're there. I'm not. Yes you're in the current directory. Erm I'm on the C drive. Yes well go up to the parent. Right now And again. where the, where the, where it is, where the cursor is at the moment, press delete to get rid of the C. And then type A to replace it. And now press enter and you'll get a directory of what's on the A, there it is, the A drive's chuntering away. Right. Now you want to go into the C S U directory, which is highlighted. So you just press enter. So you just press enter. I say return sometimes Mm. And again. Ah okay. You have to do everything twice in this. Ah well. Now you want to bring your cursor down till it points to March. And enter. Any intelligent word processor you could type M and it would whiz down to the March. Right. Now Now we have to press enter again. Yeah. I, well yeah okay. And now There we are Sarah. you've got one called Sarah dot mum. And that's the back Which you and you've given it an extra name of mumsy S L P. Right and you can load that file. You've also got a back-up file called Sarah dot P K shriek. Which it saves just in case we had any accidents, and lost any of our files anywhere. So if you'd like to bring it down to mumsy sleep. With the cursor key. That's it and, and enter And then enter. To load that file. But that doesn't load it, that just has a look doesn't it? That just looks. Now that tells you that's, is that the right one? Is it Yes. a letter? Yes. Right okay. So escape. Es escape. To get you out of that. Now R for retrieve. retrieve your file. There. And now you can try and print it. Can you remember can you remember the Remember how to print things? finished it. Oh haven't you? Doesn't matter we'll just try, we'll just do a little right okay right okay. We're testing the printer at the moment. What do we do to print? We press F one F one. F one. F one. F one. And then up there And press to see which one to print. F seven. Right. No shift F seven. Right. Top one is control, the next one is alt That's your control key and that one is shift. Yeah. which you mustn't touch unless you're very sure of what you're doing. Okay. The control key. So so that, that one is print F seven. So first of all enter to get out of help, and remember that you want Cos you're in help. shift F seven. So you press shift F seven and And you press two for page. No P for page even. I do two. So we'll get into We've got lots of letters. We've got lots of letters. We'll get into the Print set-up. print set-up. Right. F seven. And again. No. Oh. Okay try. And again. Okay and again. Enter. And again. Oh yes. Yeah good girl. Erm Ooh ah I've just So what are we doing? I don't know but I'm getting pretty fed up with this. Okay well we're supposed to be getting into selecting the printer. You seem to be looking for a file, and you should be selecting I'm, it's a very, I'm not used to this set-up here and I, I'm There's very little difference in what you're doing now. Well there is a fair bit John because I don't seem to have all this round about way at work to be honest with you. Well. You don't do it properly at work. Well I'm used to it now. So that's the way I like it. Okay. Retrieve. And that's right. Right. Now F seven. you want to set up the printer. Okay? Right now press Select printer. Is that what you mean? Right so press S for select printer. And we're on an H P Laserjet Two D for some reason. Well that's the one I've got at work you see. Right Right so which is this is not an H P Laserjet Two D. That's not a laser printer. It's picking up its printer driver from your disk which you had in which Yeah. is why we're having a lot of problems with this. Alright okay. So if we set your disk. Now before you do anything, if we set set it to pick up the Panasonic K X P Eleven Twenty Four Mhm. from there, Mm. it'll muck up your disk for work. And when you try and print out on your H P Laserjet Two D Oh that's right. You will get rubbish coming out like this. That's right. So what I suggest is that we We copy it. copy that file that we've got loaded. So don't bother about selecting printer. Let's leave Leave it on the Laserjet. the printer there, as it is. And we'll escape from that okay? We'll escape from that, and we won't do anything. We've got the file ready now. So let's save it. On the C drive. Okay? Yeah. And then we'll print it from the C drive with WordPerfect loaded from the C drive. Cos when you loaded this you were in the A drive. Yeah okay. Okay. So save your file I'm glad you know . Save your file again. Okay. Right so F seven F seven or I do F ten. Right. One document named mumsy yes? F ten again? No just enter. No just enter. It's asking you for a type. S L P. Enter. Enter. Just enter. Document to be saved as ? Now don't save it yet. Saved. Now delete that, delete that A. Not a backspace delete but a delete. And C. And enter. Well that was quick it saved it on the C drive. That's very quickly it went on to the hard Now. Right yeah. disk that's in there. Yeah. So come out of WordPerfect now. F seven. Save document ? No. Save document ? No. Exit WordPerfect ? Yes. You said no. You have to read what's at the bottom. So do F seven again. Okay and read what's at the bottom. Okay save document ? No. Okay. And we come out of WordPerfect now. So. Yes. You want to exit WordPerfect. Y. Y for yes and why not? And that comes out of that. Now we take that floppy out. Yes. And change to the C drive so if you type C col C D. C colon. Oh. C colon. On the next line or Just no C colon. No just there. All one line. Shift that's two dots. Oh right. That one's two dots Right. Enter. Enter. We're on the C drive. C D C D backslash. C D. C D backslash. Backslash. No. Backslash is bottom left. No backslash that's that. Oh right yeah. Okay? And enter. Enter. And now have a look at your prompt, and we're on the C drive, and we're in the root directory. . I do, I know I sends tingles down your spine. Now if you'd like to type If you jus just carry on don't, don't mind us this often happens. Yeah. If you, if you 'd like to type W P, for we're perfect. Or something like that. Yeah enter. And enter. You never know what'll happen. Beach ball beach ball Now what's the date? Please check date. It is, if it is wrong hold down and press C. Hold down control and press . Now is the date correct? Yes. Okay just press enter or space or any key. And off it'll go and you're in WordPerfect. Right. Now we've gone to a blue screen. Right. So you load your file. F one F one. F one F one. And which of those will load your F seven. File for you? F five. F five sorry. F five. Shift or no shift? Just F five. Well first of all, first of all you're in you're Press enter to s exit help. Right. Now F five. It gives you a list of files. This time . Enter. Now it's going to give you a list of the files in C C. colon Right yeah. backslash C S U. Which is what you want. Go down to large. Yeah. Yeah. Down to large. See if she's in and Enter. and sorry no and retrieve. If you enter You'll just get to look at the document you can't work Oh right on it or anything. So R for retrieve. Oh I know because there's more to, there's files in it. And you have to come into it. There you go. Right go down to mum. Go down to mum. Now R. R. Now end. And now you can And now F one F one to see how you print. And what do you use to print? Erm shh enter to get out of help. Okay Yes. well first of all before you get there Well shh shush let her speak. Enter to get out of help. Yes. And then shift and F seven. Good girl. Excellent. And then you go to pa Two. Two. Page two. Oh page sorry yes. Much easier to remember than two. the figures. Ooh. And we're still not printing. I would think that your rubbishy version of WordPerfect is thinking it's an H P Laserjet. Yeah. Right. So if you'd like to get out, of come out of Word oh first of all I think I'd better go and check the chicken now. reset, let's select printer. So F one F one to tell us what we use to select the printer. Do you know my hot. Which is the Mm so's mine actually. Shift F seven. So enter to get out of help. Shift F seven. And select printer. And select printer. Because this has all been mucked up too. This Right. also thinks it's an H P Laserjet Two D now. So let's set that. Bring it down a bit to a Panasonic K X P Eleven Twenty Four Yeah. and enter. Right it should now page and now if you try and page it might work. I don't know.. Ah there we are. Now it's all because somebody has been messing about with . Wasn't me. All that messing about getting the printer to change was, came from not knowing where you are. That's enough of that. Yeah. So that works. As long as we know now that it works. That works. Erm I want to finish off the letter now anyway. The formatting looks a bit erm a bit silly doesn't it? So we'd better, we'd better sort that out a bit. Erm first of all we'll get this ready for head of the form. So we'll just use the line feed one at a time. Until it comes up to the next page. And we want that, there's the head of the page. We want that just about on the black line. Right. At the bottom of the black . So just there. Right. And we put that in cos otherwise that'll come down and get jammed in the printer head. Right. Now at the moment it's still got its headed form set, up here somewhere. So switch the printer off. And when you switch the printer back on, wherever it is when it's switched on, it thinks that's the head of the form. That's the top of the piece of paper. Right. So switch it on again now. And next time you print it should think it's a K X P Eleven Twenty Four and it should think it's at head of form and print everything out beautifully. So I can finish off the, I want to finish off the letter now. Now on that letter how was it printing out? You've got margins set at looks like one point three inches on the left and one inch on the Yeah. That's okay. Erm have you put tabs in here or spaces? Erm If you do F eleven it'll show all the characters. It shows you what you've got here. You've got hard returns, soft returns soft returns so you've got spaces in here. Erm did you want your spaces in? I mean some of them have got spaces and some of them haven't. Well it was like a new paragraph but I didn't leave a line. new paragraphs. Oh okay. So if you go down to where you've got new paragraphs, and just do enter. blank line if you'd like to go down and first of all F eleven to gen to get rid of these codes. Yeah. And then you've got it back the way it was. You can just come down to everywhere you want a new Using this cursor? Yeah using that. Or that one or the mouse. Now home. Erm now What have you got there? Have you got spaces? Take out that. to there. Er don't take it to the I. Leave it to the . Leave it set hard against the left. Don't bring it over to the first character, leave it exactly where it is. Because Why? otherwise you'll put a few spaces then a new line and this will go . Right so you just press enter. Okay. And the bring it down. Mhm. Sue's version at work is set up very unprofessionally. Mhm . Erm now right, now see what you did. End will take you to the end of that line. If you press delete, Right. . Now what you did silly thing . You where there and you pressed enter. What that does it puts a blank line in, immediately before that word. You want the blank line there Oh right yeah. before the other Okay. Right. Okay . Okay. And if you press end, it should take you to the end of the line Alright okay I'll just finish it off. Take your time. You can do a preview of it. What do you mean? Erm can you remember how to do print? Yeah. What was that? Erm N no F seven shift Or was it shi F seven. Shift F seven, good. Okay shift F seven. And now Select printer. view view document. V. No don't select printer Oh. cos we've had problems with that V for view document. That's what your letter's going to look like when it's printed. Alright yeah. So you've got nearly a page there so you could Yeah, yeah. put another paragraph or something in. Yeah. And then it'll be ready for printing out. Alright. So if you escape, you'll, actually, while you're in there, if you want to have a look at two hundred percent. Try two for two hundred percent. You can read it a bit more easily. Oh. if you escape. Erm after that,dear mum , okay escape again. Back into your document, and we'll go up a bit. Dear mum, end. And put another new line in there. you should have a new line. What enter? Yeah. Right. Okay. And now get down to the end of the document. Alright. You can do it quickly with page down page down. Right. Erm And I use that one to go onto a new line don't I? Right. Erm Yeah. Mhm. Erm Now, do you want a blank line? Yeah. So another new line, another enter. Oh right. These, these two keys produce exactly the same effect. Okay yeah. They both enter new lines. Right. Erm Now do you mind if I read this or not? Would you rather I didn't read it? No I don't mind, no I don't mind. Okay. I'll show you how to spell check it. Just gen general gossip really We're just going to spell check it now. Just finishing off. We've had a preview to see what it looks like. It fits on the page. As well, is it two words or one? Two words. Two words. Well it's my day off tomorrow from cooking. I know I was just gonna quickly do this and I'll come and help with your dinner. So enter enter. I think it's quickly done itself actually. It u usually does. erm ooh gone too far there. Erm Try tab it's much quicker. Where's tab? Oh. Tab tab tab. I think Sarah would pick this up quite quickly you know. I think she would pick it up ver is picking it up quite quickly Yes. Erm and would do very well at it if it was a sensible package and not the rubbishy WordPerfect. Yes it isn't it really John. No . I mean I'm fairly used to what I've got at work now. Because I virtually use all the same functions, all the time you know. Yeah. capital Xs. It's alright leave that. you're going to write Sarah? Yeah . Okay so let's Bring it back to the top. just spell check the whole document. So F one F one. And where's it tell you about spell checking? Erm I can't even see. Oh sorry F two. Right. It's control F two. Okay so it's F, it's the top one of the four. Which, and this one tells you how to interpret them. So, and they're all in different colours as well. So it's control and F two. So first of all have, read, read the instructions on the screen. Press enter to help. Control and F two. Right. Mm. And now again the instructions are on the bottom line. You've told it to spell check. Do you want to spell check one word, a page, the whole document or what? The page. No. We'll do the whole document. Oh right. So D D for document. Right now forty two A . Okay ignore that. Skip. Ignore numbers. It's skip on that John it's not ignore. So I just press two? Right well hang on there was a little difference of opinion there. Ignore numbers will ignore all numbers throughout the document, and in case there are any others in there. Skip will just skip what we were ignoring. So skip again. Skip. It's saying Sussex isn't a word that I know about. Oh right. It's not in its dictionary. It doesn't mean it's spelt incorrectly. Did you put the words in? No. Oh. And press two again? Yeah. Yeah. And again. And it'll find the next So skip again for ninth. It's Right now it's suggesting words. Oh it's, oh yeah. I got it wrong. Right so which do you think it should be? A. A. Okay so if you type A, it will put weird in. Now Hastings, what are you going to do with that? Erm nothing, cos it's right. Yeah skip. Right coursework? I think you can put it as one word if you like. It probably wants it hyphenated but we'll just say skip, if you're happy with the spelling. Halt. Okay yeah. Yeah that's right. is right. That's right. No . Got a hyphen? Yeah it hasn't, didn't have a hyphen but argue that's okay. Now how do you spell keyboard? Let it suggest, oh it's not suggesting anything. Well isn't that weird? It hasn't got any suggestion for keyboard. Right so we'll have to come back to keyboard and you can change it, I think. Can you edit? Four. Yes. So you just move your cursor along. after that O and before the R. How do you spell keyboarding then? It's got an A in. Before between the O and the R. Oh of course it's A isn't it? And again or do I put A And again. and then put A. And you have to insert it before where you've got the cursor. So put the A in before the R. But you don't want a capital. Backspace. Backspace delete. Okay. keyboarding wrong. Exit when finished. You know it's a very helpful thing, it doesn't tell what exit is. So you're stuck there for life unless a young lady from the audience can help us out here? Oh you just Exit it says. Press exit. We've finished editing we want to get back in F seven. Okay. No. You've got your F eleven up have you? No. No it's still going. It does that in spell checking. Now I . Okay. So you can skip that now. And it's, it's checked the lot. Mm. So independence was right. Yeah. Okay? And it's found, it's found most of your spelling errors and it's counted the words for you. There were four hundred and fifty three. God it's like an essay. an essay. Now one of the things it didn't do, was it didn't pick any of your grammatical errors out. Mm. Erm what it counts as a spelling error is if the word isn't in the dictionary, it's a spelling error. Now if you use T H E I R when you should be using T H E R E, Oh yeah. it doesn't throw it out as a spelling error cos it counts it Oh right because it's a recognized word. Yeah. But you can get grammar checkers which would check that and throw it out and say that's not right. So any key to continue. And you do have a T H E R E or something up there. So if you go, if you page up several times to get to the start of the document. Page up? Which is that one Oh sorry. Okay page up. Now somewhere, I think near the beginning there was a there. So it's not in that lot so page down to the next one. Erm right,when there are , is that correct? No. No. So put your cursor on the I. Get rid of the I R. Oh. Okay that was a space. So backspace delete to get rid of the space you've just put in. Use your cursor to come along. That's it. And delete. Oh. Then go along one and . Alright and bring the cursor down. Now there was an aren't somewhere that you had. Erm or a can't. The aren't was okay . Haven't. Haven't. There. Right okay. So Right. And that looks okay so page up to the start of the document. And now save it. Because you've now got it the way you want it. Oh right yeah. You've, you've just checked it all. So you can save that. Remember how to save? No. F one F one. F one yeah. F one F one. And now where's save in that lot? Erm F ten. Now, so, but you're still in . Enter I can En you're in help so. never remember that. Okay now then N long document name sti still mumsy. Enter. So enter yeah. Still S L P. save it on that? Yes. Now what you're trying to do, is overwrite the old version that we had. Mhm. It says, replace this one, you've already got one called that, do you want to write this on top of it? In this case we do. But sometimes Yeah. you might not. So if you just press, if, if you if you pressed enter, it's got the no highlighted, so it wouldn't automatically replace it. Cos it's trying to be safe. Mm. The default, the thing it'll do if you don't select something is no. Mm. So you have to change that deliberately by typing a Y. Right. So press Y. So save it say Y and it'll save it. So that's saved now. If we mess up the printing we've still got that, and we can come back to it Right. and try and print again. Okay. So now you can turn the printer on. It's on. Is it on? Right excellent. And try printing it. Right. Remember how to print? Erm no. F seven. That's very Shift F seven. Good right. Right set And this time we'll printer. we'll have a preview first. That, just have a look to see if it looks okay. And we're on, let's have a look at the full page. Three. That looks fine. That looks okay doesn't it? Right Okay so escape, Escape. to get out of the preview. And then we want to print full document. So one. Or F F is easier to remember for full document. P for page, D for disk, C for control . was in here. Well what? I don't know. Feet? Feet? What was what was wrong with your little bit of WordPerfect ? Oh it's n cos it's not like at work where things don't go wrong at work for me any more. Pardon? You were saying that the problem you, the big problem you had at work was with your printer drivers. No not any more I don't. It's the same problem you had there. Not any more I don't. Well. Cos you know about avoiding changing printers. So the problem was caused with bringing a disk from one machine to another Mhm. I know. with a different driver on it yeah. But apart from that, apart from the printing, let's forget about the printing aspect. How did you get on with the rest of it? What did you think of it?complained last time. No but if, if I if I talk by myself it's going to So sound really false, isn't it? Yes. how did you get on with the word processing this afternoon then Sarah? Who suggested that you that you should have a go? Mother. What did she sugg how did she, how did she suggest it? Erm well she said, would you like to go on the computer? and I said, fine, okay. So she showed me her bits and bobs and things like that . The hardware, the keyboard and things. Yeah. How to turn it on. Yeah. What else did she show you? Erm basically how it works. Erm How does it work? How, how do you turn it on? Erm by the switch by the telly. So how many switches to switch it on? I didn't go I didn't go through a proper sort of instructive thing. I honestly didn't I just brought it up. Oh I'll let it be known that your mother is a very good instructress. She's good at teaching people all sorts of things, nice and calm and patient. Not like some who are shouting, shift F seven, and shut up and, you know the sort of person. She's not like that at all. She's lovely. Make a good tutor. There's Elaine Paige I didn't, I didn't do any on telly. There's Elaine Paige. I didn't do anything really John. I just brought up the files. And went really straight into Sarah typing. So you set up WordPerfect so she, with a blank screen for Sarah to type on. And a new document. Did you set, did you choose the document name? Erm yes I did. I thought that I'd created a new directory but I didn't. You used. Thank you you were on the, you were on A drive. So you typed, you, you, you set it up. And nobody noticed that it said A colon and not C colon. Cos nobody ever reads the bottom line with the poor computer Well I do. trying to talk to you and tell you something. I do it's just that I People are just interested in shouting at it aren't they? No I was just simply just not noticing much on the screen really. Right. Sarah just wanted to type a little letter. Mm. I didn't actually feel in the mood to show her Ah well . bits and all. Answer that question. Well I thought I was going to have the computer here for the whole time of Sarah's stay you see. Well one of these days. So I thought that there was plenty of time as this is my first day off from work. Tonight? This is I didn't want to be thrust straight into it. Tonight I'm going to transfer WordPerfect, from that one, from the three eight six, to the X T, so you'll be able to find it. Okay. So when you started typing, how did you put the address in? Oh that was a bit of fun wasn't it? I thought that would be a bit of fun. How did I do ? How did you put the address The address. In? Forty Getting across to the right-hand side. Erm I moved the cursor. Mhm. Yeah she did a load of indents to start with. Oh yes and then I done, I did er I put forty two A north and then I went to put street and I wrote it in, typed it in, but it went underneath forty two A. And I thought ooh so That was clever. I shouted mum. You set up, set an indent then. No but the street was in the wrong Or a hanging paragraph? was not on the same line. No but it was, was it immediately below the forty two? Yes. Mm. So you set up some sort of indent. If you press F four. Right if you're doing something, just doing a straight bit of text which Mm. was just straight typing Mm. and then you suddenly want to indent, which is say come in five s five spaces Yeah. five space Yeah. bars to set it in. Mm. If you press F four, from the margin,F function F four key. Yeah. It sets in automatically five spaces. Yeah. Right. And it wraps round. Right. So it gets to the end of the line and it will come back and adjust itself and go under the the Yeah. The the first line Yeah. indent. Mm. All the way down until you don't want it any more. Mm. And then you put a return in at the end of that and it goes back to the margin again. Okay. It's clever that. What do you think of the little hearts every time you put an enter? I wondered what was going on. By, by the end of the time when I er did the address I had about ten hearts all over the screen . Well with most word processors So I did F eleven and, and revealed the codes and deleted it all. Very good. Mm hard software and s I showed her that. Yes we tried that. and software. Hard return and soft returns. Hard return soft return. Yeah. Well well with most word processors, you don't use return, you just keep typing and it automatically says well I won't fit this . It wraps round that's the expression. Wrap round. Mhm. And that set up still most word processors won't show when you've got a new line character. When you press enter it stores a character in your file. It says right get on to a new line. Most of them don't show it but you can set it to show it. So I've set that one to show it. Okay. Oh stop squeezing my fat Squeezing your fat what? I'm not. Thigh. I'm just stroking. Can you make it clear Hip. for the tape, that it was not I what squeezed your thigh. Fat or otherwise. It was her there. It was I. So a lot of problems just getting the address in. Not really. Oh no . Oh no. Well let's say let's say was it quicker was it would it have been, quicker writing the address by hand? Oh yeah it wa it wasn't a big thing that was a major mistake. It's alright, it's alright. Not getting it right first time . It's all about learning basically isn't it? Exactly. You learn by mistakes that's It's all learning yeah. Right I did . In every aspect of life. That's right. Life is learning. Learning is life. Life means learning. Once you got started Life is hassle. Life is problems. When opportunities, opportunities. And once you got started typing the main part of the letter, you were alright then? Mm. Just about. I just whip whipped away. Took about an hour and a quarter to do but there you go. Actually. Can you remember how many words you did? Four hundred and fifty three. I did show you how to do. How did you find out? You tried to catch me out there didn't you? You said, how many words did you do? Four hundred and fifty three. No. Pardon? I did show Sarah how to do the backspace to delete, when she made a mistake, instead of Mm. Instead of leaving it. Well not only instead of leaving it but using, she wasn't quite sure she was pressing delete and It did no I had an E on the er Delete does work. the cursor I had an E on the Delete does work if you use It deletes. the cursor key in fact. Delete will delete whatever character is at the cursor at the moment. Backspace delete, or backspace one and then delete. Onto the character. Oh yeah. Right. I'm going out now. Cos I remember you saying on the X T that the delete key wouldn't work. backspace delete. What, are you going to the offie? Yeah I just want to get some orange juice. I'll come with you. Is that alright? It's fine. Can you take this home so you can finish off the tape? Preferably talking about WordPerfect. Or something structured. We've only got about three minutes to go on that. And it's half nine now. So what did you think of the, the session altogether? What did you think of having two I think two tutors at one time Well did you think that worked? No probably it didn't, I mean Right. you see the thing is confusing because you've got two people bringing in the ideas , Yeah well you see John's got about twenty five years' experience with computers on me. I'm, I'm still a novice Sarah. No I'm just saying it's harder for me, it was harder to have two people tutoring me because I, you were coming in with suggestions that you know already, you weren't, like then John was coming in I know, I know, yes I'm sure, I'm sure but you kno that's right. But in actual fact I think that for preliminary erm instruction I'm, I would be better. Because I wouldn't confuse Sarah with a lot of technicality. What was the main point But in your session? Me? Mm. The session that you started with Sarah, what was the main Oh because I didn't tell her enough about the keyboard and, and the Why did it all go wrong? Why was it wrong when I came in? Well because I always feel that you want to No before I came in it was wrong. You couldn't print No it wasn't. you couldn't print Oh I see what you so mean oh you're talking about I thought you meant How, why, why had that why had that gone wrong? What do you mean, why had it, what do you mean, why had it gone wrong? What, what had caused it? Why wasn't it printing? Oh because I was on th I misread it all. And it Okay cos it, cos it started Drive off on an A drive. Yeah. And it was picking up printer drivers from the A drive. Mm. Not a very intelligent package. A load of rubbish. I mean I er I mean I had a lot of trouble what do you think of it compared to Microsoft's Word? today. Sort of when I first started using it at work Mm. I was always getting it O K, I'll go from there, the effect of the course is a team focus course for T N T Express. Erm, right, what I would like you to do, and what we've agreed is that, just introduce your partner. O K, and I'd like you to be able to tell me not only something about him, her, but also obviously the three things that you don't currently know. Now where will we begin. We'll begin with er, John, come on, we're all laughing at you. Shall I stand, I don't have to stand do I? No you don't. Jenny ,, she's worked for Express for three and half months, and she previously worked for A N C, er, on their pallet service in Sheffield and South Yorkshire area. Er, she's got quite tough at T N T, being quite new to it, but er, she's got it even harder because she has to work with me, but er, she doing very well with B M A system. Er, she's been at the, well something I didn't know, she's been at the depot the shortest time of all our indoor, but she's the first one to get the first day to , percent,, so that's good. Well done. The second thing I didn't know, she er, she worked eighteen, she worked for eighteen months in London, arrived there for a holiday, and er, from being eighteen, so sh , this now will explain why she's quite mature as I said she's still very young, and that. Er, we have the largest territory in , in the depot, it , very like in all ages, in existing customers, and customer base. The problem of the assault course of whether she's actually fitted in in three months, anyhow that's what we ought to write that in, but er, she travels , she travels most weekends playing hockey for Yorkshire, and has done that for four years, and she's all over, where were you?, Wrexham, she was at Wrexham not so long back, like, so she's er, quite a sporty type, er She's a good sporty model. Coupe. She was quietly , in a place called Peddeston, she's chucked a travel ticket, it's a bit much for her to do, big tough training and that sort of thing, but hopefully she'll pass her test in the near future, and all she needs to be able to do is get her rise so she can afford to make up. Right, that's it, brief and exciting. Right that's lovely. So, er, quite an hockey player eh? That's excellent, so what about playing for the country, good chance? Not that good. Not that good, right, alright. Well done, that's it, right, O K. Go on Matt. O K, erm, David , age fifty one, he's been with T N T since his , erm, Dave's hobbies, he goes to car rallies, and he's very involved with politics, he also likes going down the pub and playing darts and having an . He's been married thirty years, he's got three children, erm, Nick who's twenty six, Caroline who's twenty two, and Christopher, fourteen. Er, three things I didn't know about Dave. Dave used to be the Chairman of the Young Conservatives at thirty two, er, he was also a local councillor in nineteen seventy-five to nineteen seventy-eight in his home town of , erm, and he used to be Rotarian, for two years, he goes to raise money for charities. Right, Erm, his son Nick, he's a computer programmer for I C L, but I believe it's now changed it's name to D two B. Caroline's at Essex University taking a Master's Degree in Art, and Christopher's still at school. Previously to T N T Dave was in the steel industry, and he worked in that for thirty years er, doing , and one or two other things, one of which was G K N, that's it. How long have you been in , Dave? Er, June That's right, yes, yes. Have you settled in? Yes, thank you. I think it was a bit strange, I think at first wasn't it? Yes yes, that's right. yes, but we had problems making it. That's right, but you were a councillor for instance Dave? Yes. Right. So that's the sort of political thing. That's right, yes. Good, yes. So why, why did you stop doing that? Did you get, is that because you moved away? Did erm, what was it four years? Well when you're elected as a councillor, you've got provision for three years, that's right, I got re-elected after three years, after three months there they changed their minds and decided to put er, a labour council in, so I mean. Right, yes You can't really understand why they'd do that can you? They all, they all think it's so unfair, don't they, that's right, yes, oh well at least you've stood again and, and, and on your feet, that's alright, O K. The only chance I'd got of staying on, er, a couple of people don't know this, it's quite vital sometimes to become what they call an alderman. That's right. But to qualify for that you've had, you've actually got to be a councillor for six years, so I got half way there, That's right. Yes Of course you could have become Lord Mayor then if you'd been an alderman? No, you can become the mayor The mayor, not the Lord Mayor, that's , that's right, no. Not a lot to that. That's right, yes, And build more houses, more council houses. That's right Yes, I think it does something really nasty, you know, you could have got in again and just been sort of whiter than white just doesn't work with the er, Er, I think the reason, the main reason we've got that tower was before castle lets up. No, I mean that's very stupid isn't it, I mean I mean, you'd need to do something really awful,, but if you did something really awful like , for being good, but having said that erm, you could have got elected again. Erm, yes. Yes Erm, Mary do you want to tell us about Mark? This is Mark , erm, three things I didn't know about Mark. But this is one I learnt yesterday Ah that's alright, let's here this. Good,, Mark asked me how old he was, and I said about twenty nine. Right It was meant to be thirty six. I didn't know, I'd have said thirty five. He signed for Liverpool when he was sixteen years old, and he was going to be a footballer. Right, thank you. A season Oh right And he did train, he actually trained for five years, and instead of holiday he got , and something he'd like to have done is learnt to compete in the Whitbread Round the World. Oh right. He'd like to have a go at that. He's married to Amanda, he's got two boys, Bryan and Daniel, two, four and Natalie at six. He's a Kate Bush fan, not domestic at all, he needs ironing lessons, and we've worked five w , we've worked for five weeks together to go over territory, and before he joined er, a large part of his career was in contract services and projects and business development in ex-army . Right, yes. Yes, you didn't fancy moving from Liverpool then, and apply to some other second-rate football centre then? Why I er, said that was because twenty years ago we weren't a second-rate football team. Oh, I'd forgotten that, yes, it's this sort of tendency that Liverpool's always been good, but I remember . Go on Roy tell us about Jane. Er, well this is Jane , erm, my colleague, we both work for the depot. Erm, Jane's been with us now for eight months, and this is her, how many? the sixth outfit she's worked in. She recently changed erm, to come and work for me on the Warwickshire area about four weeks ago. We are in fact top of the charts so we're quite pleased with the progress we've made within those four weeks. Erm, some strange things that I didn't know about Jane, erm Steady One is she's very interested in the occult, erm, she actually practices tarot card readings, and what she calls the crystal oracle, and she gave me a brief explanation, which is throwing a load of rocks up a cloth er, but I'm not going to push me I'm not going to push me luck on , I don't fancy finding little problems so early in the morning. She does a lot of horse riding, erm, she hasn't got her own horse any more, but she uses a local stable and gets to ride once, once a week or once a fortnight. Erm, she's lived most of her life in the Cambridge and Northampton area but she's spent six months down in Plymouth, and erm, her previous job before working for T N T was she actually helped set up a baby unit in a private nursery, but claimed she only prefers other people's children. Erm, once she walked into W H Smith's and saw her father, the only difference was that he was on the front page of a magazine so she got quite a shock because she didn't expect to see him. Erm, and that's about it really, erm, she lives in at the minute, and this was a gentleman called in the sky. Ski. Oh sorry,in skiside, yes. Well, oh go on. And she's a Sagittarius, which I'm sure has some links with the occult somewhere It certainly has some links with something if she's a Sagittarian, she's so bloody pedantic. Er, right, why was your dad on the front of a magazine, is it embarrassing or can you tell us? No, it was just a business magazine. Ah, damn, right, O K. , It wasn't anything , it wasn't the top shelf or anything. Ah, it's dreadful isn't it, ah , Yes, it does seem bad news does. Come on Jane, who're you going to tell us about? Sorry, erm, about Jack Jack? good old Jack. Right, he's an outdoor sales manager, he's been with T N T eleven years, erm, previous to being with T N T he was on , two sales for seven years, and previous to that he sold diaries, business cards, business gifts. Erm, he's married to Margaret, and they have one daughter Jane, erm,, Jack actually sets up all the, all of our equipment and everything for us. Right. Erm, Jack does gamble, erm, with his, with the dogs but he, but he also breeds them as well, and he goes to the dogs two or three times a week. Erm, and he also used to own a , and all. Right, so there are some things you didn't know about him. Yes. I didn't know that either, some of the other things were good, right. Ah, that's good, right. , Right, yes,, David, come on, tell us about Matt. Right, this is Matt . He hates being called Matthew, his actual real name is Arthur Matthew , and if you put those initials down A M D, it sounds like a transport company . Yes. He's a bill sales, how long have we been in the indoor sales, or territory four, nine, one, in Manchester depot, which covers the Greater Stockport area. He started at T N T in nineteen eight-eight, he's now twenty two years of age. He started off at Ramsbottom depot, er, a few things I didn't know about him. I knew he was very, very keen on football, but he tells me he's also keen on fishing, cricket and baseball. And also I knew he'd booked a holiday to go to Antigua, but me being totally ignorant about cricket, didn't realise he was going to watch the Antigua versus England test match in April, so that's where he's off to in April. Erm, Actually, he could probably get a game. , We had to start again He's single, and lives at home with his parents. He has two sisters. Erm, one thing some people do know that are in this room, and others don't, and he's quite embarrassed about this, on the way home from the conference, Matthew and I had a very, very bad accident, on the motorway and we're both very, very lucky to have survived actually, erm, but erm, unfortunately during the course, well after the accident, Matthew was breathalysed and found to be over the limit and he's in court actually in the Birmingham area on the twenty second of February, and we're hoping that he gets off with a very light sentence, but er, we're both very, very lucky to be here today. Yes, and erm, I'm very sorry about it, er, because if they'd breathalysed me I would have failed as well. Yes, And I think that perhaps we've all learned a lesson from it, plus the fact that you've er, had to climb out of an horrendous accident, but the fact that if you are still drinking at half past four in the morning, the last thing you should do at nine o'clock in the morning is get in the car and drive the damn thing. People never used to , years ago, why did it happen like that now? It's crazy. I, I, I'm, I am absolutely mortified, because, I have to say I think that erm, I got in the car, I don't have very far to drive from the N E C, erm, twenty minutes and I'm home, but I go on the M 1 motorway and er, and I never gave it very much thought, and on Monday when I was told Dave, what had happened, erm, there but for the grace of God. Is that a fair comment? Yes And er, I also hope that the, the Brummie magistrates whoever they are, are er, decent to you, I doubt if they will be if that's any consolation, but er, whatever happens, let's hope it comes out good, and we're delighted that you both survived. Erm, but of course that , but it was a bad accident wasn't it? My car was a total write-off. That's right, yes, it was a blow-out though wasn't it, I mean you didn't hit anything? It was blow-out , on the driver's side, and erm, well we just lost it, the wheel was snatched out of his hand when the tyre went and the next thing we just slammed into the barrier and then got catapulted into a concrete wall, That's right, yes, Actually it was lucky that we went right over all three lanes of the motorway, there was a lot of people behind us, but luckily they saw the tyres , and they backed off, but we could have finished up in a real That's right. In a real mess. Well Yes, everybody drinks , that time in the morning going to work, and you know yourself that you're , that you're not really here. That's right . I drove back Friday afternoon, three and half hours,, after conference. So you didn't stay for the evening? No Oh right. I mean it's crazy, why don't they have the conference time at ten o'clock in the morning, and have the conference and everybody go home at a decent time, it's silly. Well erm, I think it's going to certainly erm, create one or two thoughts, and I think we have to recognise that Yes, erm, you can come down the night before conference can't we so, Aye, we could have loads of young people together, and you could get loads of old people together er, , Anyone, anyone Or of, of mixed age group, let's put it like that, er, I only mention it because things are going to fall over and go to bed, erm, and everyone else stays up again. You know, and if it is just the way it happens, particularly when you get a er, an envelope with says here you are, have free drinks, you know that some people, they don't drink at all so they can go to somebody else and say here you are. Er, it's a shame because er, to be honest I thought it was an excellent conference It was Good about everything, good salesmen, erm, but I think we do have to take er, Jack's thoughts on that, that really perhaps we are begging the question when we, just forget ourselves and keep going till three, four o'clock in the morning whatever it is, and then we'll get in the car and drive home. O K, done that bit, erm, come on Jane, tell me about Roy. Right, this is Roy , he's twenty nine years old, he's been with T N T for fifteen months. He doesn't want to cover the Warwickshire area, and he's hoping soon perhaps to get promoted to senior executive. Good. In his spare time, this it what I didn't know, he's an avid , which I am also, so we'll be swopping games in the near future. Erm, he gave his job up when he was twenty two years old to tour the States for six months. And when he came back he got a job in Marks and Spencer's on the shop floor. Erm, something else I didn't know, he's in the theatre, his favourite is musical Yes, musical Yes, show my ignorance. Les Misérables, and he's in love with a woman called Lindsey , who played , in that particular play. Roy said he would be in joint forces on the territory probably at the beginning of this quarter, erm, so far so good. Well you made him sound really, really boring. Why? And this really exciting life he's had, and you made it sound very boring. They didn't know, Jane asked him well done. We'd best come over here now I think, hadn't we. Linda come on tell us about whoever. I'm introducing Jane , who works with us on the same telephone team with Jack. Erm, she's worked with us, she's worked with T N T three and half years. Erm, she covers the Durham, Gateshead and Bishop Auckland area, the reason being is that I look after our certain areas, and Jane looks after certain areas, and we both make appointments for Jack. Cor! Jack's , , so we have certain days, Right. So like one week, I'll take three days out of that week, and Jane only has two. The following week Jane has three, and I have two. Right. But it doesn't work out like that most of the time No, I was just going to say, that sounds like a wonderful idea until you try it. I go, I go in her days, and she goes in on mine, but never mind. Jane has erm, one sister and two brothers. Her sister's got two, two kids, erm, one boy, one girl. Erm, unfortunately one of them's in hospital at the moment. Erm, Jane's twenty six, and before that used to be a hairdresser, as you can tell. Erm, I found out today, that I didn't realise she'd actually passed a c , a beautician's course, so I don't know why she's taught me out of all, hasn't taught me how to go on. Erm, has recently been teaching a little girl that lives next-door. She actually lives on a farm sorry, erm, a little girl next-door to ride. Erm, and has recently been going to dress-making classes, but she nothing to anybody at work. Erm, and she's just getting a new car, erm, unfortunately about two year ago, she had an accident in a Nova, well, her mam was driving, and they haven't had a car for two years, so she's just recently getting an Orion, erm, one point eight, diesel, all the body kit, and very, very nice. Erm, she keeps going cruising for babes, as she keeps saying. Erm, unfortunately lately she's erm, stopped drinking because I think she had a drink problem, no she's just being trying quite to cut down,no she's being really good It's a good job we're recording all this. for posterity . And that's it really. Alright, yes, O K. Right, who, who've we got left, Mark, you better tell us about Mary right. This is Mary , she's twenty four years old, she's the indoor sales partnership with me, for Oxfordshire, Bucks and Berkshire, at Bracknell. Previously she used to work for British Telecom in tele-marketing. She's married with two little girls. She's married to Graham, her husband, and he trains race horses and he had a winner last weekend. yes Three things I didn't know about her, one, she's painted a kid's playroom in primary colours, red, yellow, blue and green, that's gloss on walls etcetera. She used to sing at parties and school discos when she was ten years old, and wishes she'd made a record. And she'd like to take part in the advanced driving course so she can spin other people's cars instead of mine, and pass them. That's amazing, well done, yes, O K. Right, go on, you tell us about John. Yes, here's John , and he's worked for Express for nearly four years. Erm, before that he was the northern sales rep. for a large controls company, he is an amateur , erm, he lives with his wife and eighteen month old son and his wife's expecting another child next month. Erm, three things I didn't know about John before, he was very mo , modest in pointing out that he was the top salesman twice before last year's award, he was very quick to tell me that. Erm, when John was sixteen he had an offer to turn professional at snook , snooker, it's obviously a misspent youth there, and also , Erm, I'm not sure if this is wind up or not, but John informs me that his middle name is Russell, and his dad wanted to call him Jack Russell , His mum made him some instead, and I'll pour it on you after you said that one. Is that it, you were going really well then, I was looking forward to some more about that actually? He got the dog and he called it That's right, that bit. There's only one thing more I've got to say about John, he's the worst, he's renowned for being the worst in the country, but he, er, got a bit of encouragement from John Mills and Chris Ackland and he's now doing , so that's a good achievement. Oh, yes. They asked me if I wanted me P forty five framed or unframed. So how can you view the fact that somebody else is er, typing, or doing a transcript of er, what we're actually saying on this tape, we should explain what grotting is, it's most probably you know something that you do on a computer screen rather than if you look it up in the dictionary, what grotting actually means. It's not something that we do two hundred times a week, but most of us would like to try. Erm, it's and it's you Jack now I think? Yes, Linda, Linda , indoor sales in Durham, erm, Linda's been with the company for seven years. She came across erm, T N T in the Overnight days, erm, and I've had the pleasure of working with Linda right the way through the seven years, through Overnight, and Express. Erm, she's twenty six years of age, erm, she came from a company called Mail Com. who was a major customer of T N T,Express unfortunately, erm, it's a promotion company. Linda, has always in the seven years I've known her, spent fortunes on clothes and make-up as you can see. And she's married, she's been married for two and half years to Glen. Her clever husband built a conservatory for myself on my house last year, the year before. It's never stopped raining, you realise. She's got no children, she was telling me last night in bed, there's none on the way either. , it's interesting what some people say when you're in bed. Erm, I wasn't aware that Linda, erm, was a good cook, she's been tell me she's a good cook, I wasn't aware of that, because in one her drawers there's normally half a tea cake, a scone or whatever you like. She's, eats junk food, nothing else you cannot , it, but we've er, got a little van pulls up called Grumpy Manor, every morning, and she's first down the stairs to get two or three sandwiches or what have you. Phone in one hand, and sandwich in the other, that's Linda, but she tells me she's a good cook, and erm, she's also told me there's only, she's only ever been with one guy in her life, Oh God , find hard to believe but , No, no, no, no. But erm, that's Linda, and er, as I say I've known her for seven years, you can have a bit of fun, she can take a joke, she's got a good sense of humour, and nice to work with, and she's nice to work with. That's right, good, O K, so now we know more about one another. It's nice to know that junk food doesn't just put weight on, you know on, on everybody else, I don't know, you eat junk food, and there you are as skinny as a rake, it's not on sometimes, but there you are. O K, so now we know something about one another. What I would like to do now is to just pass round the, the agenda for, for the , for these two days. Er, I'd like you to have a look at this, erm, er, then I'll, I'll just talk you through it. Erm, if I could just pass those around. Cheers, A coach's pulled up, have I got enough for them? Erm, the point perhaps of, of, of the thing is, it's called the Team Focus, and hopefully for that very reason what we're trying to do is to look at the way in which you can improve your performance together if you like, erm, and it would be very interesting to see what Jack and Linda can contribute to this in that, people who've worked together for sort of six or seven years, erm, ought to be able to show us something. So that'll be quite interesting, I'll be interested in seeing all your contributions to this. Erm, what we have to do is to look at, if you like, the way in which A, we can improve what we do erm, and see if we can't get more out of the two of you than we do currently, I'm sure you'll enjoy what we're doing. Erm, the programme if you like, you will know that er, those of you who've been here before is that, that, certainly when I'm running the course, there is an agenda and that's what we actually do, erm, now on this occasion, I think, I will try and cover as much of the agenda as I can, because frankly this is, it is a good course. If anybody comes to say, and you tend to sort of say well what do you really want to talk about, er, and do that. Erm, I'm on this occasion I'll keep as close to this as I can possibly go. Does anybody want to make any comments about this? I, I would normally say to you now, right what's your objectives for the two days, but to be honest if we do that, er, I don't think it helps very much, erm, but if anybody wants to make any comments about any specific part of it, er, then I'll try and just talk you through it. So if you sort of see something then say what the hell's that all about, er, I'll try and talk you through it, and take away any fears that there may be. Is everybody O K with that? O K. You'll see at the er, towards the end it talks about personal action plan, erm, really it's much more a team action plan than a personal one. Erm, I want us to get to a stage by the time you leave tomorrow afternoon, where we actually have and you have agreed a plan for your team. Erm, now I will give you as much help as I can with that, but not the actual subject of it, erm, you can determine what the objective is yourselves. Erm, and then we'll sort of talk it through and make sure we've got it right, and we'll get it typed up for you, erm, and make sure you take a copy of it away with you. Er, and I will also say one thing, and that is when you take it away with you I keep a copy of it, and that's our little secret, O K it doesn't go anywhere else. Right, so nobody else will see that. It's something for us to discuss, that's what I'm saying, so , so if you commit yourself to something and balls up , erm, the general manager doesn't get a copy of it, and nobody else does, just you and me. O K, I want to before we, we go any further, to let us have a look at something that is on this agenda which is called commercial awareness. Now we have in the room here a tremendous amount of experience, of people who've been in the industry, people who've worked with this company for many, many years, and we've also got people with us who have not been with us very long, and I'd you to know we may have covered certain aspects of this on sales skills courses just to talk through what the point of the exercise is, I E what we do for a living. I've only been in the industry, I've only been with this company for two and half years, and when I joined and had a look at what the industry was about, there were thirty express overnight carriers. The sort of prices which people charged and I've been speaking with Jack only this morning, the sort of prices people charged, started way, way, way down, and then went way, way, way up. And we, by our very definition were always, I suppose, going to be in inverted commas, the most expensive. I E we charged more than most of the others. Today there are twenty eight national overnight, express carriers, because two of them stopped trading. One, Federal Express just decided it wouldn't do it any more, and other other one Elan, a couple of weeks ago, or last week or whatever it was, decided it couldn't afford to do it any more. And what I think it would be helpful for us to talk about is where we sit in this business, just for half an hour, where does T N T sit in the industry? Now you're much closer to the pointed end than I am, I don't sell anything, I'm just a cost, and if you don't make a profit I get fired don't I? They'll say we can't afford you, so it's in my interest really that you make a profit. Erm, but I'd just like, like you to take a look at the, the sort of commercial awareness bit, and, and to look at what we're looking for. What sort of business are we looking for as a, as a group, as a company? You're all out there doing it, on a daily basis. It's quality traffic with a, a. Yes, go on Sorry, quality traffic with a, with er, a good rate. Right, so we're actually looking for Jack, is parcels, yes And we're looking for parcels, quality traffic being I'll do the talking today Parcels,parcels , right sorry. We're looking for parcels, at the right price yes Right, so we're looking at the right price as well, O K, and what else are we looking for? It has to break Certain capacities, store, yes, and iron premiums. Right, and now we're looking very much more aren't we, at overnight, next day business. And so, very the onus would be would they not, the three things that we're looking for most of the time. Although I joined the company only two and half years ago, the contracts which we had then had a two day, three day price on them. O K. We've still got some now. Yes, but, but it's We don't encourage it do we? Most of the, what has happened I think, over the last two and half years, that I'm aware of, erm, is basically happening a long time before that, I, I can't say yes or no. But, during the course of the recession I think what happened was that most companies stopped keeping stocks didn't they? And so if you went out and you bought er, I don't know, we've, if, a microwave, as you left the store with your microwave, the salesman calls his supplier and says, I need a microwave, because he only keeps three now, whereas even up to three or four years ago, he would have several in the back store, now he doesn't keep them. And one of the things that's happened in our business I think, erm, is that, is the fact that during the recession people stopped keeping stocks and now they do need a fairly quick delivery of, of their products. And that's helped. One of the things we were talking about earlier this morning was, from our point of view anyway, what a super January we had. Is that a fair comment for everybody? I mean you may not have that much to compare it with, but certainly in my experience, is that January if I took people round the in January, erm, you sort of made excuses for it. You know, it's a nice quiet time of the year, we're up to peak and busy up till Christmas, but in January we are a bit quiet, and this year it hasn't been a bit quiet. Not in the hub anyway. Erm, we've found that you know, the parcels are still flying through, and so from that point of view, er,ther , there's a lot of strength isn't there? One of things that we'll never be though is, I think perhaps I can use the, I don't want to use the word cheap because that's not right, but we'll never be less expensive than the others will we? And why not? Well it can if you believe in quality. yes. If you're thinking this is what this company's all about, then you can't cut your costs, because you can't give quality if you reduce costs. No, I, I, I've only got this company to compare with you see, so there are others who've worked for other companies in, in the industry. I can't compare with the other companies in the industry. And I would like to think that other companies in the industry have a training suite like this, and I wonder if they do? , If they saw the state of you, you're going to get pay day. I don't think it's got a staff room. Well er, that's alright, I, I wouldn't , I look at the things which we do very well, erm, and a lot of people say A lot of people see T N T, even though they're expensive, they are what most people ex , appreciate they're a little bit exclusive as well, with the service that they offer, the image they portray. Yes, a lot of people think they can't afford T N T. Yes, you get that, you're always getting an, an impression, that I don't need that quality of service, but what they're really trying to say is I don't want to pay that price. Right, then, is that fairly common? Well I don't know. You can also get the ones when, a lot of them, like some companies if they, depending how much business they've got, some companies actually think that, they might have only got fifty pound a week, a hundred pound a week, as they haven't got young businesses, do you get me? You know what I mean? I think the bigger it is, I think the bigger Yes, that's right, yes, Yes, right. The one who did Captain , walked down the road all the action ones. You know? Oh my business . Because they're not going up er, come the last in team. Now that's interesting, you were going to say? I think there's a lot of the co , er, the smaller companies feel that way, but the bigger companies have tried the smaller ones, and I think we, we're not likely to lose the bigger ones as easy as lose the small ones. They need T N T the big accounts, back-up service in the offices, and so on and so on. Erm, but the small accounts, yes, and they frighten T N T off, too expensive T N T, before they even look at the price. Even when you've been in a You know, I think we've that nobody keeps us We've had a name over the years that we're an expensive carrier, and it's just sort of keep going and educating them that we've come down in the market or, Even when you're ringing them, you know somebody that's got two parcels a week, they're sort of thinking, why are you ringing me. Do you know what I mean, why are you wasting a phone call? Well, they may well have only two parcels a week, but you know yourself, them two parcels a week is more important to you than, you know what I mean. I tell you what if we had every company that sent their two parcels a week, if we carried them all we'd be doing well wouldn't we? But that, that, that's right, because I'm sure there is that attitude isn't there? Yes, there is. Yes, thank you for that, because that helps, helps us in here. There, there is this thought then out there from a lot of people that they really ain't big enough for us. We are very big and therefore we're only looking for big business, is that, is that fair comment? Mm, that's right. It, it's also a chain, from what you're going on about, people regarding the service, I mean everyone's had a bit, not just the erm, it, it's the purchase managers more than the er, people who pay our premiums, they are just in time and we stood up to be shot at if we don't pay the service, or put a big ones maybe, they'll have half a carton of raw material left for that machine, so they'll order an item for tomorrow morning, well they're not to blame for the service, T N T's to blame for the service if we don't get it erm, Yes Get it to them, so. So that service puts a bit of pressure on operations and so on, does it? I mean we've got to pay for good, the way, the way that the business is at the moment, because everyone's going next day now, no-one wants three day, That's right. You know, I mean we revert a lot of trade here to next day, so the quality of service has got to be good or we lose them. And we've educated them to go onto next day, and if we're not performing we lose them. Right, so the interesting thing from, we've got a lot of experience there, we've got some people in the room who've got a lot of experience in the industry and in business, is that one of the reasons why we're looking for parcels, if you like, is because of that. That if you like, er, and I've used this example before but I'll use it again, it was quite interesting I think anyway, is that one of the examples we used on one of courses, is that somebody calls into the depot and says, I need help, I've got to get this delivered by tomorrow and collections or you or whoever takes the call, is very excited because this person says it's three hundred and fifty kilos and I need it today, it's Durham, we'll use Durham, we're starting from here, in Durham tomorrow morning. And everybody gets very excited, because three hundred and fifty kilos in Durham tomorrow morning sounds like a good pay day. And then what happens when the guy turns up for it, is that's it's alright, that's the wheel there Eh, it's dropped off And it's got a right there, and the , , it must be carriage free,, said to these fell on Superman. Well they had to do,, and everybody's got here that he's a, he's engaged, and there, and I mean I know I've used doing my scribble, but here's a little spout here like that and it's got a tap on it, and that's what it is. And of course our guy turns up doesn't he, and he's seen vino, and all he's got to do now is load it doesn't he? And when he gets it on, the, the C and D truck it sets off, what happens when he stops at the first set of traffic lights? or turns out? It cuts through the back doors. Well that , that's what I'm saying is that, I think what we have to start doing and I'm not suggesting you're not doing, but I just want to talk about this in, before we practically kick off on the course proper, I think what, I mean that comes off, and then the oil starts dripping out of it, and the minute the oil starts dripping out, then we become quite a good artist aren't we? So when this oil starts dripping out of here Not in here now Where does it all soak up into? In the waste truck. That's after the wheel , pollution. Well that's right, even with help from upstairs, I mean, if it had four wheels on right,alright. It shouldn't have. It's not completely true, what I'm saying is that, and then what happens of course, you get over to the hub with, with, with the sales virgins who've just joined the company Virgins! And you say, today we're, tonight we're talking you over to the hub and we're going to show you all this, and I take them and get over there about ten o'clock, and we go along there to, to look at the, the slats and the trays and there are all these masters flying around being terribly excited about this, terrific noises, and they say, God this is great, but how many parcels will go through tonight? And you say, oh about sixty thousand so it's best not to look. I bet sixty thousand, and you know what people in this particular bar, and they say what did you say was being good, how many people work here? And you say oh, about ninety eight, that's why I've been seen for, and you say come with me. And you go back to light a sandbag, and there they all are, and they're all a bit hot, it's about,it's like Hades , and there's fork-lift trucks flying everywhere and you've got pretty girls who in, in, in the team when you get down there and they start showing off, that's alright, don't mind that, and, and you've got all these fork- lift trucks flying everywhere, and you've got men carrying rolls of carpet and you've got, you know, all this yes, those of you who've seen the customer care film they Oh yes They're certainly the classic lamp-post. Yes, I can't believe it. Erm, you know you can't blinking hear, and I, the thing is, it's alright for us to laugh in these four walls because , until what you think, is what we're really trying to do. And I think one of the things that we hopefully might be able to think about, and might be able, not learn, because you know it already, you don't need to learn it, is how we can increase our contribution to what the depot doing, by perhaps having a really close look at what we're actually carrying. Three hundred and fifty kilos for tomorrow morning, is very exciting, until you realise that oil is the last thing on God's earth we ought to be carrying. And we are the last people on God's earth, then we'd be carrying it. The checkout's a lovely example this morning you talking about those pallets that were going to Euro , something, Delivering pallets to Germany,, with a trailer. Eighteen,hours. There's a man putting twenty pallets on the truck, three hundred and sixty quid to Germany. I mean we couldn't move from one end of the hub to the other for that, and they are the people who are excellent at doing that sort of business aren't they? You know, it's not even a is it, it's not even what we want to do. I've got some figures which you might find quite interesting. Some of you may have seen a bit of these before or similar ones, but it doesn't matter, because it's worth looking at again. That every month what it is issued, is some statistics which talk about a s , sort of service analysis for the company. Now we get to look at these every month, and I want them to keep them to talk to them, to classes about it every month, and so this one, alright it goes back about, but it doesn't matter, because what it does, I hope any way, is gives us some thoughts. Let me just show you what it says, just get it straight,right that's the service analysis for September nineteen ninety-two, alright so we're going back a few months. Can you see by the way? Right, O K. Now what it does, he's said right, in September this is what we moved, and then what it does is divides it by four, O K, this is what we did therefore in a week. Now what is actually talked about, he splits down into two, he splits it down into Express, which is next day, not , all next day, and general which is two day and three day. And in September ninety two, if I took you back to sort of September ninety one figures were quite different, well in September ninety two, eighty nine percent of our business was next day. And therefore by definition eleven percent was two day, three day. And then he got on to explain what the items were, seventy five percent of the items went next day, and ninety thousand went, I'm sorry, and er, and twenty five percent went two day, three day, and if you divide one into the other, what it means is that two point one consignments two me , sorry, two point one items per consignment went Express, and six items per consignment, general. And with this go, I've just got to go on through this, the average weight of an consignment Express, or on next day is twenty eight kilos, and if you're talking about two day, three day, it was ninety nine kilos. So there there's a pattern. The good stuff is here, where you're talking about sixty six percent of you trailer as being Express, you're talking about the consignments on a trailer, the items on a trailer, and then that, the revenue per trailer, why do you want to move it next day? More money. Because you make four times as much money don't you? Erm, that is what's happened to the business isn't it. Now some of you, if you've only been with the company a few months or whatever it was, may not have noticed too much of a change, er, but I've noticed a bit of a ch , I've noticed a tremendous change in two and half months, two and a half years, and there's some people in the room who must have noticed tremendous changes. Tremendous changes over the years, in fact I mean you can remember Overnight,, or you know before, before overnight actually existed. And so we've got away haven't we, from the the being a carrier, if you like, to the stage where we now transport parcels really. Is that a fair comment? I think it's from being a haulier to being a parcel carrier now, Peter. A haulier? We were a haulier's. Right, yes. , can I just speak for a minute. Bill always used to say, I remember talking to Bill one night at er, at a conference, and his ambition was to walk into every depot at nine o'clock on a morning, and not see a parcel. I mean, I'm going back well into the haulier days then, three days. End of Side One. Yes I mean you think the others would learn, but obviously not. It's like six, six foot frames of ten kilos next day. There are only two carriers that'll take that on. I've been staggered now. It doesn't even make commercial sense, and I think that's the, the worst part. You can make an assessment of the commercial , Yes Bring back the express so , it doesn't sort of highlight it, because they don't have tiers of borrowed storage all over the place. You know. Yes, I mean we all pay our electricity bills you know what it costs don't you? Yes You know what it costs to run, switch the lights on, you know what it costs to run a conveyor belt for goodness sake, and yet it, and if, if you, if you lose money on, on shifting one parcel, I know if you shift a hundred thousand you might make something, but the chances are high that you won't, and, and I mean there are people shifting more parcels than us, I know that, they can't make any money out of it. I mean it just appalled me I think that we are all of us, if you like to a degree, tarred with the same brush aren't we? So that when you introduce yourself, you are seen as a haulier, was the phrase you used, er, and we, we'd all need to spend an awful lot of time and an awful lot of effort into raising ourselves above that image, I mean there's nothing wrong with being a haulier, all I'm saying is that we have to raise ourselves above that image. O K, I just wanted us to, to do that erm, because erm, one of the things that I suspect when you're getting down to doing your plan tomorrow, is that with the best will in the world, even though I say but this is for sales course, one of things you will want objectively to look at is either your revenue or your trading base or something, er, I just wanted to carry that through. This course is about teams, it's about teams of people, erm, and we have in the room one team, two teams, three teams, four teams and one the right we have a team of three. And I wondered if perhaps we could look before we go any further at why teams work. Again without being boring, when I first joined the company telesales people made telephone calls and made appointments, and the outdoor went out and did it. We used to have twenty five appointments to make a week. Twenty five appointments a week, I, I don't think I knew the figure, er, Linda, but if that's the, the figure I'm not a bit surprised. And during the sort of formative weeks or months of my joining the company the B M S was introduced, and the rules were that the telesales people will now become sales people, and that was one of my briefs if you like, that what you are going to get in front of you Peter is a, is a load of people who are currently working what's called telesales and what they actually do is make appointments. What you've got to do now is make them into salesmen, forgive me again for using the phrase salesmen, I appreciate that all of you are not men. And And some of the people couldn't take it could they? Some of the people who had suddenly become saleswomen , they had to go, because they couldn't cope with that. They were pretty good at making appointments but they couldn't cope with sales, and there's been a tremendous change in that over the last two years. And the other thing that's happened of course, is that the tw , the, the indoor and the outdoor have had to start spending more time working together and think together, and indeed being measured together, because you're now measured as a team aren't you? yes You're given a target as a team, and you're measured as a team. Let me try and give you an example. One of the first questions you get asked of anybody when they first come on a training course here, er, certainly a sort of foundation course, is that somebody writes up on the board there T N T, and says what does that stand for? Trans-Nationwide Transporters. Thomas Transport. Before I came here, I thought that T N T was something you make bombs with. And I knew what it stood for, now what it does stand for Tri Nitro Toluene, it's what you make bombs out of. And if you like, that bit is short for nitrogen, what's nitrogen? It's a gas. It's a gas, where is it? Where is it? Yes, where would you find some then? In the earth. Yes, it's all round us now isn't it? Right, breathe it in, breath it out. Very harmless gas and in fact you could do with and leave nitrogen where it is, and it won't do anything. Where would you find this thing, toluene? What's that, where do you get toluene, do you know? Alright, toluene comes out of the ground, it comes out as oil. It is actually distilled from oil, and it's a fairly heavy liquid, and it's, to be honest not inert, but it doesn't do much. If you filled this room up with toluene it would stop here for the rest of its days, something like that, you know what I mean. And yet, if you join those two inert things together in the right ratios they go off with a very big bang. And it's called apart from a chemical reaction, but it measured by something called synergy. Now synergy is where two and two becomes five. Where what you do is take something, that is capable of doing that, and you take something that's capable of doing that, and you join them together, and between them you get so much more than they could do individually. There are examples all the time, of a, I'm not going to use football as an example or a team as an example in football, and if you suddenly get a new member to the hockey team or a new member to the football team, or whatever and the whole team is transformed just by this one extra person, this one person joining in. The reason why Mansell if you like, can drive a similar car to some other man and make it go that much faster, is he adds something to it, to the mixture. And this is what I want us to do during our two days together. I want us to learn something more about one another. I want to us to get, in the nicest possible sense, closer to one another. I want us to learn what we're good at, and what we ain't very good at. What we can't do, and what we can do, and see between you, if you can't determine a specific plan of action which is going to improve that which you do. I've taken over the last few months when we've done our sales training here, talking to certainly on advanced sales skills courses and so on, I've tried to bring an air of realism to their world. When you get people on to a sort of Noddy Goes Selling course, which is the first one you come on, you are expected to believe that when you leave here anybody who doesn't use T N T Express would be absolutely crazy, and that everybody you're going to talk to is going to bite your arm off as long as you stay with your boyfriend. But that's part of the occupation, that's part of the, part of the, part of business that we're in. When you get a bit more wool on your back you know it doesn't work like that does it? And what I would like us to do is to be able when we leave here tomorrow, to say that by what we've learned about one another, and by what we've actually decided, that we can probably improve what we're doing by something between five and ten percent. Not doubling it, not trebling it, but to improve it by something like five or ten percent, and then the next time we go to a sales conference, you'll be the ones winning the prizes, instead of the people who've to be winning the prizes, because you'll not have to improve it by much to win the prizes do you? If you look at, as you did at the conference the teams that were winning prizes, they weren't that much better than you were they? It's not worth winning the prizes, but they weren't that much better than you. They were just that bit better than you. And they're that bit better than you because they're able to organise themselves and they do more in day and do it longer and so and so forth. What we're going to do is we're going to plan it. Does that suit everybody? yes Does that sound like a good idea for a couple of days? yes I can promise you the phone won't ring, well it might ring but we won't answer it. And er, nobody will phone you and say that you've got to be here, there and everywhere. Nobody will try anything on the desk in front of you, and say I need that now. Well I might, but I mean that would be part of the game. What we've got for the first time I suspect, since any of you joined this company and you take the experience over there as well, is that the time you spend two days together, and actually find out what it is that makes you go and I don't suppose that happens often,, dropped you off the boat together for more than two hours at a time. And probably even less than that, now I think of it, two hours that's quite a long time isn't it Peter? That's right, it doesn't work like that. So that's what we're going to be doing. O K, something different, in one sense. That brings us to quarter past ten, I suspect that there's, tea and coffee's out there then, and if it is, I think we'll have the break just a bit earlier, and then we can get into it when . Right, well that tea and coffee have actually turned up, what's happening here now? Erm, it's now quarter past ten, so we'll be back in at half past? Yes O K. Tape turned off. Time taken like Euroexpress isn't it, finding out whether they've used it, No they don't. There's another thing what we'd have all said when we got , you'd have said it over the years yourself, erm, well just ring in and we'll give you the price, you know, and if we kind of touch up to contract or flat rate or whatever is the way to get ahead, or you get whatever, ring Linda, or ring Jane and she says right, and we've said that for years, And she's getting them to ring you, you know And you cannae get away from it, you get a lot of business from them things. That's right, yes. Right so what we're saying really, I, I know we've got three other people to come to but what comes out of the first one is, alright, you're saying you've got an organised day, and I'm sure you have, and I don't have any problem as such. One of the things that you're saying is wrong, not so much an organised day, one of things which causes us a problem, and that's the major one Er, er, one of the things that Not causes a problem But every day is different We could improve on a little bit was er, the time spent on incoming calls and queries which is hard to get away from. Absolutely, so what else does it show you? That, I mean, the, the appointments what Jane and Linda do make me, I'll be honest, they're quality appointments, not all of them but I would sixty, seventy percent of them are good quality appointments. Right. And there's been a lot of them lately. We've, I don't know if everyone's worked the same system, but we're back on the old appointment system. Yes Which d , which works in Durham depot but it might not work in or Milton or wherever, but it works in Durham depot right, so that's the way we're working together now, Jane and Linda who work And you've all shared haven't you? Yes, three years on, Linda's earned her badge, and the following week that's three years on Jane's badge, and two on Linda's you know, so that's the way it's worked, it's worked very well. That's right, well that's takes up a good deal of time. Yes, but sometimes it doesn't work like that you know, sometimes I'm having to go in Jane's area, I mean like, for instance, we got a phone call last week about the alarm. We were straight in there ringing people, you know have you got any problems, listening you know to this and that, and the next morning we were in ringing, and Jack would ring in, and we'd say, look at know you're at Gateshead, but can you go to Newton Aycliffe? That's right. Which is totally the wrong, but if we didn't go there we wouldn't get it. who wouldn't to that. So maybe that afternoon he'd only get two calls done, but at least we gain more business out of it. Super, so we, we need to recognise don't we that it's a very immediate business. It's sales driven, O K, we're not going to say that nobody else is important, we need all the other members of the, the company, but it is sales driven, O K, it's what it's made of. It's very immediate, we need to be able often to change tack at a, a half a day's notice, sometimes a minute's notice, sometimes half a day, so there's that little problem as well. One of the points you're making there which is an excellent one, and a very strong point, is the fact that you get a lot of incoming calls which we encourage, Yes, that's right. It's part of the company's image, We're not saying that you don't like that. You may say that we, we'd like to do away with the incoming calls but, to a degree, it encouraging them, so what else does it show Jack, or is that the two main points? Well, er, it shows three hours erm, every morning cold calling. Cold calling? Cold calling, Right, Yes, and that's obviously where she's getting, we're getting new business from. Yes It's a must really isn't it? Erm, the break down's good, customer care, B M S obviously, erm, a few hours spent, and erm, mailshots, an hour spent or so on mailshots. But er, I cannae really fault the two girls I've worked with But I, we're not trying to, no, no I know how busy they are when I come off the road off a night, and I know busy because they are before I go out on a morning, and erm, it seems like they're never likely to get stuck from time to time though. Don't get me wrong on this, this is not in any way, shape or form meant to be a criticism, what we're trying to do here is to sit down and say that by tomorrow night, can we organise ourselves any better. If we can't, then O K, then that's no problem, but can we organise ourselves any better. And if we can, we're only looking to improve ourselves by five percent we're not looking to improve, or increase double sales next week are we? What we're trying to do is say look, you are senior people in this company because although you've only been here a short period of time, but you're still very senior people. And in the depots, when you are in the depot, people are cutting them, and if that's the case, we, all of you, just remember , what we did, right just being as critical as we can of one another, to alter the way in which behave, but it's not meant in any way, shape or form to be a criticism. Thank you for your honesty there. Is, is, is that four or is that I, I, I think this must be the hardest business to plan around in the market place Peter, because at the end of the day you're chasing business, you, you're looking for business and if I've got an account, I'll be honest with you, if I've got an account tomorrow or, that rings in and it's in for sort of Friday, yes, and that should be there, and I'm out of the area Friday, I'll go across and get that business, I'd go out of my area and get that business, That's right. And, and it's hard to plan around it. You can try if you, if you make yourself but if you're trying to stick to a Yes, we're going to see as part, as part of our time together, we're going to see a couple of films and you're going to enjoy those I'm sure. Erm, they're called the unorganised manager, erm, and the one, there are in fact four in the series, but we only see two of them. The first one is called Damnation. Erm, and it shows a very unorganised person, the second one is called Salvation, by then of course the person is very much better organised as a team. And one thing we will learn from it I think, if we're honest with ourselves, and we put, and try and save up and have a piece on the end there, but the one thing I think we will perhaps come to, and the one conclusion we may come to, is the fact that whilst we, we do live in this world and I absolutely agree that if somebody says, look I need to see a new as well, I need to see you now, or I need to see you tomorrow, that'll be difficult, O K, and that's the immediacy of the business. The fact that if somebody's got parcels they want moving, they haven't got parcels they want moving next Monday, they've got parcels that want moving today. It's results orientated. Absolutely. So what we need to do is to recognise that as a witness of that, of the way in which we work, because it is. We ain't going to have an organised workload, we are not computer operators, what we are is salesmen. Right, very busy. So that's what we do, it's got to be recognise that as a, as a strength and a weakness in what we do, we can get quite a lot out of this club today. What, what about you then, er, you two, Roy and Jane. Well, it It's really , to say that you, the very obvious thing is that there's only a sort of a certain amount of quality hours in a day whereby selling is perhaps better. Right, what are they? Well, obviously nine until ten, ten until eleven, eleven until twelve. Right, so you've got sort of nine to midday ? Yes, alright, yes, I mean I haven't done it like that, I've got to analyse it through green, when I actually was aware that I was stopping doing my B M S and had to do something else for whatever reason. I think the main thing is there's about six hours sort of realistically speaking of really good quality hours to be on your B M S set during the day, and just to sort of add up the hours that you are actually on the phone making outgoing calls, sort of brings it home to you. I mean one day, I mean I was in a customer care meeting for three hours on Monday , so obviously I lost some there, but you know, that particular day I was on a, just on the phone personally on my B M S for just over three hours, and just looking at the other things that I had to deal with. You know, I was on the phone to a customer for fifteen to twenty minutes because they'd had a bad experience and I was actually making an appointment for Roy to go in and that twenty minutes is a long time, and I think really if anything, it's just brought to me really,, how little time sometimes, it's not always the case, it does vary, that, depending on the incoming calls, depending if you've got got through the emerging paperwork for whatever reason, how little quality time perhaps you do actually spend on the phone, making outgoing calls to sell. just added it up and sort of like if you take twenty, if you take an hour as being seven days, erm,twe ,twe , twenty one hours, and what have you got the total there, three, eight, eleven, eleven and a half hours selling out of the whole of that, actual selling on your B M S, well they'll give the things that we both disagree are important, and then you do get chance to do the selling what we're predominately; It, it's organising yourself really, it's not easy. That here's this discussion with you before I know some of you, but the very nature of the salesman, doesn't lend himself very well to being organised. If, if you like the characteristics which you will show most of, and we'll do a little team characteristics test a bit later this morning, but the characteristics which you will show most of are one, that you are fairly gregarious person, you like being the, the salesman is a, a loner and be quite a lot more to life, so you're fairly gregarious people, and even though there are degrees of it, you're all fairly extrovert people as well, and those two characteristics don't lend themselves very well to being organised. Now if you are an extrovert and gregarious person like Jane and a Sagittarian, then perhaps we have something going for us, but it's very, very unusual, for people to be organised and sales orientated. It doesn't happen very often. If you, if you wait for a report from a salesman, you can wait for a very long time, the only piece of paper he really likes filling in is called an expense sheet. And, and most of the other bits of paper are very, very, very different. We, we do find it as a, as a group very difficult to organise ourselves and for us to have some time to sit down together and feed off one another and talk about it so this is quite, that's quite hopeful, and I think that does show erm, something the same as er, I'm sure Jack would say the same thing, like here we are, you know, we've got all the incoming calls, we've got all the other stuff to do, and what we're actually doing when we're trying to make appointments and so on is we, we fit it in, because we're half way through Even though you got to, you've to do those things, they're an important facet of the job itself Well yes, they've got to be done. yes, they've got to be done. Peter, can I just say one thing, I've er, erm, Jane don't get me wrong I'm not nit-picking right, but obviously erm, it must be er, the ideal time to cold call, nine to twelve, because Jane's got cold calling down and Linda, from nine to twelve. But surely general managers should use a little bit of initiative within, in the planning as well. He's put, he's put a customer care meeting on from nine o'clock till twelve, I would have wanted one thirty for one and half hours. No it's eight to eleven. Sorry It's eight to eleven. Some of them were yes, eight to eleven you get out there and sit down in your choice time Well it was really meant to go on from eight till half nine, ten o'clock which wasn't quite so bad. Yes, I mean, And it doesn't happen very often, it was more a one-off, but it was also very necessary, because of the different types of jobs, it, it wasn't just sales people sitting in there, it's was people different departments, cab drivers from outside and we had, yes, We had the engineers up, but we had everyone, but ours started at one thirty Yes, we had drivers that had to do sort of timed deliveries or whatever in the morning, and they, so basically that was the time. I think, I think it's a good point though so I mean, all I, all I'm saying is we've all had drivers there, and depot managers and operations managers and the the people but you would be the one that got it wrong at the end of the week if you didn't You see the problem again is that, is the same as it is for anybody, next week is just planning, as it were, you know, this is what it's about, why did the general management not sit down and say, oh that's peak time to have them out we cannot have all them indoors in there from, that's a full morning. I wasn't going to finish until now, I'm on this No exactly, exactly Alright, no, we've got er, I don't a bit down game, that's wrong, you know your territory, do you just have one territory, Jack? Yes, no we have two. Yes you have you have a territory each, yes, because it's er, er, it's we, we've got quite a large territory, haven't we? We're like, we account for probably over nearly forty percent of revenue from the depot this Well you drive to Hull before you start with. Well I, I no, I'd never get anywhere local actually, just send me to Grimsby or somewhere like that, but no, I've got , but Derbyshire, all of Derbyshire. Are they sort of civilised there? Yes, yes, and then Barnsley, so I can still get a bit of a rough . Oh Barnsley, , But because we, we sort of account for just our territory, it's core territory, and our territory accounts for forty percent of revenue, there's an awful lot of accounts registered, so Jenny doesn't get any, hardly any time at all to actually go off and , and do any cold calling or anything like that, it's all B M S. Yes Right, so A lot of the time you know, it, it's good in one respect that they're all in , you know and that sort of thing, so if any leads come they sort of come together, you know that sort of thing, but it means that, quite a lot like,routine on B M S. It does, that's right. But also you can get, you know you, you sometimes you can fall lucky and get quite a lot of prices from cold calling as much as reviewing this one little, renewing every, every six weeks and trying to think of something to say that you haven't said before, like I hadn't told you or Pete, you know, things like that. But as far as aim is with, on a typical day, say if I get out of the depot at quarter to nine, if you like, and look at today's string, I go to Derby. Er, it takes me an hour to get there, if I'm lucky now at roadworks and charging time in one day, is like an hour to patch, then you're out on to the patch, in between appointments running about because Derby's quite a big area, er, again if you've got to cover an appointment in Matlock and you're in Derby in the morning you're talking a good forty five minute run to get there. Er, then back to depot in forty five minutes because you work your way back up you know, towards, back towards the depot, you're talking three hours forty five minutes, and exactly half your time is just spent on the road. You know, if, it depends on what area you cover, Manchester might be a bit more condensed. It doesn't, What, what we will prove to ourselves if we want to is it doesn't matter where you work, the amount of time that a salesmen spends driving about in his car is almost exactly the same regardless of where he works. That if you work in the big city you might only have seven miles between calls but it still takes you three quarters of an hour. yes Er, and, and it, one, one of the things which I hope that we can agree upon is that the is, is that one of the things we can do by organising our time better is get an extra sales call in a day. Mm We can do it, and if you do, I don't know, say five calls a day, let us say because I'm not making any rules, erm, if you could six calls day, without any doubt it would increase your sales by twenty percent, it'd be good that. And one of the things that we do need to look at is, that is almost every salesman that I've ever measured and almost every bit of research I've ever seen, suggested that every salesman in the world, spends at least a third of his time driving about in his car. And you don't have to improve that by much, that's what I'm saying, you know, cutting down on your lunch time, don't do it, but er, and I take the point that you, you made Jenny which is an excellent one, that here we are, we've got this great swath of companies that , this great swath of companies, and the amount of time that we can actually spend er, doing cold calls or other things that we'd like to do, er, is governed by something else. And there's no way that we are going to be in a position to change your world, but we're going to be able to change it slightly, not change it totally,. Yes, I mean, just say going back to , I've actually got a map now included in the diary, and a picture of where I live and where the depot is, and so I change my journey by day, and quartered it down. Quartered it, it's in four quarters. A bit like the buzzard, that's right, yes. And we do sort of on each day, sort of Nuneaton, We do one a day. Right, yes, it is important you see isn't it?, because one of things that happens also I think is, is that we tend to see a motorway and we tend to see a call one side it, and a call the other side, and work on the assumption that we can actually get across the motorway there, or under the motorway there, but sometimes you can't can you? And so you're, er, have actually, you're at or whatever, erm, it would be nice to think, and I'm not exactly sure, my geography's not that good at that particular part, but you, you sort of tend to look at it, and say, right if he's in and out, and it's ten o'clock and somebody says they can see him at eleven, you know, and there's this tendency, to say, well erm, O K. Yes? We've all done that one, haven't we? It's the subject what the indoor sales didn't take, it's to do with the geography. Jack let me tell you, I'll tell you a story shall I? On the first foundation course that people do in this company, the one thing that I do, is I give them a map of the United Kingdom, and it's got thirty dots on it. Oh yes And it is, I put up on the screen there where the depots are so they know what they're looking for, and I say, now what I want you to is tell me where the depots are. You know the depots where you are. It's absolutely terrifying. It is. I mean it's no wonder they can't find their way out of London. Where shall we go . It's no wonder you can't find a sales rep. on their way round Birmingham because they don't even know where bloody Birmingham is some of them. And, and Yes And er, it's absolutely terrifying that, you know, the, the geography, they know where is, but er, But Birmingham. Please can we not use . Oh yes, yes you know where you work in the Derbyshire Peaks, I had a guide here a few weeks ago, and I kept it, it's upstairs, and it actually put the English Channel going up there, the Peak District. I said, there's been a lot of flooding in Norwich. Well that's right Particularly the Pennines. But erm, it's, it's terrifying, and when we get, as and Jack's made a good point and, and it is a good one, that perhaps if we spent only half a day when somebody joins the depot and said to them, this is the geography of our depot, and this is where everywhere is, and this is how you get from one side of it to the other. I know there's a motorway running down the middle but you can't over or under it, for thirty miles there, so if you've got to get across there, you have to do this, come all out, you know, and that is an hour's run. And I wonder, if our world would improve if we did that. I think a lot of it is a case of pressure Peter, you know if the girls want to make twenty five appointments that week, if they've got an appointment, yes, I'll have it in, regardless of where it was, they would. That wouldn't bother me, honestly. Is that er, It's the targets, you don't want to be in a position where you can't pick and choose. Exactly and once you get that appointment on the phone that you wanted, erm, they'll look at the day, you'll take it regardless. Yes, you see the thing is one appointment can cock up your whole system, because if it like you said, if one, if a customer does happen to call in and say, look I need somebody in here desperately, when do you want it, when it's smack in the middle, it's not the other side of the world, but you know he's in Nuneaton or something, well you still have to go out and see him . , right, I've got to see him, that's right, right,that's right, and yet you see, if this guy desperately needs to see you and you say, I can't be there until five o'clock, he'd still see you at five o'clock. Yes he might do,he might say that, he might not But what we do, because we are the people we are,, and er, it happens every time, we've got salesmen, and I'm talking about salesmen, who will get over to see somebody and get something signed up, they called you or whatever it was, Whatever that one was, and, and coming rushing out of the place waiving your hand, and nothing ever happens, the guy never sends is. You know, but we're ever so excited it because we've sold some, or we get him a , and we get excited by this, and he knows we're after that. Go on that's it, see that, we've got an appointment, you know, well I know he's in, I know he's in Birmingham at ten, well he'll make it to Stafford by half past, half past or quarter to eleven, won't he, he'll do that? Over the top of Birmingham, round here round there, oh he'll do that easy. Could have done it in , couldn't he? And, and if you're right, it's pressure all the time, isn't it? We ain't got time to think about it, I haven't got time for all that. I've got a classic on the T V in a few, in perhaps a hour's time. I haven't got time to plan it, I'd better get on with it. I've got to laugh. Sometimes you're called in that many times in the, I mean, they put the phone down y , on you, do you know what I mean, and it's actually getting to speak to the person is just a total shock. That's right, that's right. I mean I actually had somebody last Friday, they told me what to do, a four letter word, they told me what to do, and put the phone down. yes, right, yes. That was our depot that. , no she did, she I didn't even say who I was, she just knew the way I spoke she said you're from T N T aren't you? I've got two words to say to you, and she said them and put the phone down. She said are you going to leave, she said. yes, yes, that's right. She I said, we may not ring them back Come, come back to the appointments and I'll ask you girls from here, I think what we've got to do in our depot and I mean everybody's doing it, but what, erm, I've asked Jane and er, Linda to do is, try and get the appointments, I know it's hard to, to A M or P M. Yes, Yes, It's always it's timed appointments what beats you. You've got to be over there for eleven o'clock and you've had it after that to get anywhere else yes, yes,, that's right. You need to time it, and I really You see it becomes tougher, you see it becomes tougher,, it becomes tougher the more successful you become. Yes You see when you first start, you've only got three appointments anyway, so you can do one at ten o'clock and one at four can't you? Because you know exactly what you've got. But as you become more successful and you know you, you're team are more successful, you know then that you could in fact, if you like, get doing er, a sales interview every hour an half during the day, every hour sometimes. Er, and you start pressurising yourself all day, and it's the old story, I haven't got time for planning, I'd better get on with it. And er, and, and hopefully we'll discuss it, I'll take down, what's his name? To be fair, you start cramming calls in, you start thinking, oh I can do that one, Yes, because it's, it's what is it, I know er, exactly what you do, you can't, you know I do, I mean I do that when I erm,y , you're so excited about getting a gain on the appointment and you think, why he's got about five in there, and then you think there's a big space between them, but you think, no I'm not going onto next week because you might not be interested then, but you do, you end up putting it down so they, so it's still in their mind and that's the, the way I work and it's probably wrong, it's probably wrong, I mean I don't That's right, it's different for different people over there, I mean Mark over there who hasn't been with the company very long erm, I mean, my existing calls I mean I, I know them sort of to, to drink with more or less you know, but I know them, I mean I can sit and have a conversation, I know their hobbies and what have you, Right. Sit down and they, they swear to me when they're talking to me and what have you, you know, but we can go into them without appointments, you know, we can work them in between. yes, that's right. Where if you're fairly new, you don't know them people, you might be thinking you have to have a timed appointment to go in with, where you'll save a lot of time by just building up, and working on your existing like that. That's a case of, it happens in all walks of life, isn't it? The guy who's been in the business or been in the same patch or whatever it is for a long time, That's where you begin That's right, that's how you become very successful, erm, and you become very successful because of the fact that the people know you are there to solve their problems. You are known as the team . Yes, I was just going to say you can do that with, like if you go, it takes you a long time to do it with prospects, they know you over the years, so you can just walk in. Oh yes, I used to be known in, in, in, in my area as the kitchen man, you know, and sort of, people used to talk in the pubs and they'd say, oh well you know, my missus wants a new kitchen. Why don't you talk to people in the streets , you're the parcels man ain't you? Yes, they all know him, you all know Johnny don't you? Part of, part of the furniture , yes what do you want, there's no problem with parcels , and so again it becomes far less difficult to discuss erm, a business conversation, and sometimes it's a conversation about football, and they're all a load of complete , because that's part of, er, that's one of the joys of er, er, having been doing something for long enough to have got known within the, within the patch. What have you got Mary, er, what does yours show? Right, since I've taken over my territory the first thing I've seen, I've got to educate my customers as in paperwork. Right. They ring me up and say,, all we have is ten boxes to go, er, to all those different places, here's all the addresses, thanks love, bye. Right, And they leave me to sign the post, the paperwork, run up and down the stairs, doing this, that and the other, talking to, my things across here are training sessions, incoming, tea card collection because my collections are usually like they're a part-timer, and phone calls from reception, oh, you can take it. Right, yes, I can, problems and queries, paperwork, customer are sending out paperwork at the end of the day, and like faxing the appointments, contracts, fill out the appointments forms, etcetera, so you've got all these bits done. Right, yes. So I'm spending just exactly as much time on incoming and tea card collections, as erm, as I am on my training. It's frightening I think, what we're doing. I'm the same, erm, I spend as much as time driving as I do sitting in stock Tell me about it. And there's another And it's frightening, but I, I mean, I know from my days at British Telecom, I'd say I was on that phone, really Oh yes, of course you are Three and half hours, but looking at the time log, and it'll say I was on there for an hour actually speaking on the phone. Yes, that's right, because after that you might, you are , because you can't really, Yes, because you didn't realise And that's what makes, that's how it is, that's the only, only step I had on the way you know what you're doing. You go that's where it rose, and that rose six . I've been on the phone since nine o'clock this morning , That's right, now,y , you know very well, some of you again, forgive me if I'm repeating something we've talked about before, but we've actually used this as an example, haven't we? That it's almost impossible for the human brain to concentrate for more than ten minutes of time on any Yes. Because what it does, it just gets fed up of doing it, yes, and you just And so what it does after the first ten minutes, it says, look I've had enough of this, what's the grey haired old bugger on about now, oh , And often you forget, and your brain flies off somewhere to do something else, I fancied that bird last night, God the beer's rough in that bloody hotel, I wonder what that, I wonder how they're doing up at the depot? Hey, I wonder if that call's come through? And so on, and all these things happen. If things don't give way before tomorrow I'm going to have to , it's bloody half past seven when I get home, and I want to be in the pub you see, but whatever, all these things happen. God I haven't done filling in these expense accounts, I haven't done me course, I haven't got the. Look that will happen to everybody in this room and everybody outside. It's not an exact ten minutes, it's not an exact six hundred seconds, but what it is, is round about that period of time, after about ten minutes, what you do is you switch off and you go and do something else. Now in this room I see it happening all the time, and if you're doing something important, then I can bring you back into it can't I? Jane , oh Jane's , she said that because I haven't got enough time, only I haven't , I'm not listening to what he's saying, oh, this is important, and then you go off again. That's alright I hope, if you can cope with that but, if, if I would be a just a little bit upset if all thirteen of you went off together or eleven of you. If you all disappeared together that would be, that is a fair criticism of the training department , but if it's just the fact that all you're doing is switching off then that's O K because you can't help it anyway. Now, it happens in your working day. Unfortunately it happens at seventy, and eighty, and ninety mile an hour of motorway, you just switch off don't you? You don't even think about it. Oh nothing happens until the red lights go on do they? Until you realise,, God am I here? Yes, that's right, I mean it's that most of you, most of you can, most of you can arrive at work in the morning and if somebody says what the traffic's like you wouldn't know, because you don't know how you got there. , That's the car actually doing that, is it Yes, well this paper How many of you have read a chapter of a book, and when you got to the end of it, thought what the hell was that about? Yes Yes Yes, because you're thinking about other things. You're doing something else. Now it happens all the time, and there is absolutely no way at all with the best will in the world, and I'm sure that we all mean it, that we get on the phones at nine o'clock, and we get on the phones at eleven o'clock, you just don't work like that. That what happens after the first ten minutes, you have to go and do something else, then what happens, you physically get up and do, but you will do something else. Now that's just observing people who are stationary, if you observed the outdoor salesman, then the same thing happens. Of course it happens, it happens within ten minutes of the start of the sales interview. You switch off, the guy says something to you, you don't even hear it. Yes Now the tragedy is of course, is it's happening the other side of the table as well isn't it? You're saying something really amateur dramatic, he don't even hear it, he's somewhere else. And it's the reason why often, salesmen will come in and they'll say, this guy's visiting on this day of the week, and he sited that He never said that at all. You heard him say it, I never said that. I wonder how many letters we get in the course of a month,Chris and Chris , Colin , Andrew , I wonder how many letters they get in the course of a month, which start of with the famous words, your salesman said because this is what they go out to say. It's not that he didn't say it, but he was somewhere else at the time, and he just heard the bit of it, he heard the back end of it. It's also making clear isn't it, as well? And then you say, oh I'll ring before them before ten thirty, but you don't say ring But it costs you more than that, that's right They say oh right, Or they, that's right, and then of course there's the jargon isn't there? You know, all the preening that you do, we all have our preening, it's not as though, it's you that's that's wallpapering. I'm not going to go into that, but what I'm saying is we need to recognise this, because if you do recognise it, it makes life that much easier, does that. That will suit you, or it ain't happening, it can't. What else have you got, have you finished your course because you were making appointments on that? yes What did you do? Erm, switched off Well we've all done that. Well we were talking about timing for people, you're the same time in your car as you are in That's right, yes That's right, it's, we jumped onto I spend four hours, just under four hours a day seeing customers, you know, out of a nine or ten hour day, I find that frightening. I wonder how much time out of that four hours is actually spent selling. One hour. Yes yes It's got to happen. I bet it's less. I bet it's less, yes. I've broke mine down to some of the actual presentations in , and most of the time is, is either raising fact finding, or problem solving. Look how much time you actually sit in the reception for them. Twenty five minutes, That's right. You know, I'm three hours With the best will in the world, but you, do you see where we're working, what's against that total, yes, yes. With the best will in the world, it doesn't matter how organised we are, we can improve it a bit. But we can't improve it, not unless we know where the problems are, and some of the problems are caused by the, by the very nature of the business, and that's a problem area. The very nature of the business says you can't have a nine till five job or whatever it is, you don't work, I don't think It's also standards, like the poor receptionist, she says, you know like yesterday, she's trying to put a call through,, and it didn't get through, she says I've got to try and answer that phone within four rings. That's right. And she's got five holding, and she's absolutely panic- stricken, you might just oh right, buzz,you know That's right. And you know, oh, it's work, but what do you do? With what do you do? Well, er it's not what you can't, you've got to Exactly And I, and I think that in, in most depots there ain't that much fat is there? Well some people that are like me, but there ain't that much fat, that says right, we can now afford to, you know, that person's er, er, you know got a lot of free time, there ain't any of them any more is there? No And , and so what we've got to do is organise ourselves so that we spend more of our time, ensure, actually doing the things which actually do what the business does. And what the business does, is what? What does T N T Express do? It delivers parcels It delivers parcels and guarantees overnight. What we have to do is start looking at all the things that make that possible and try and do something else for all the things that don't help you fill it. Now that is, it's easy from here, to pick a case, sat here and try and undo it, but that's what we're going to talk about during our time. Right, thanks for that, we'll, we'll come back to that. What does the likelihood be? Perhaps first off, I could give you all, er, you've all filled in one of these evaluation sheets before on a course haven't you? Yes Right, so if I can give each of you one of these because that's what I want to use these So just put the, the course name in Team Focus, your own name, if you know what that is, the date is the The tenth. The tenth of February, and where it says objectives, if you have any specific objectives then you can write those in but I should have worked out how to do this I should think now. Your wedding is the happiest day of your life no? Well, what is it then? Getting married is something that most Scottish women do at least once in their lives, and most Scottish men, which means that most of us have planned a wedding and that's what we're talking about tonight, weddings. Where you have them, who comes, what you wear, what you do, what it costs, and what you think about it later. Now, if like me you've yet to attempt this big production number you could pick up a few tips here, after all, we've a number of professionals in this hundred, hoteliers, dressmakers, cake makers, photographers, and video makers, registrars, ministers, but above all, we have a lot ex-brides here, and let's start off by finding how many we have. Have you been a bride? Button one for yes, and button two for no. And, in this hundred we have sixty nine er ex-brides thirty one still to make the leap. Now wo er erm, I can't ask you whether it was the happiest day of your life because only sixty nine of you would know. We well was it? It's the only day, really in a women's life where everybody at her and she's made to feel like the most special person on this earth, so I'd highly recommend it. Was that your experience? Yes it was, yeah. You're the only person there wearing the ball gown, you're the only person there getting their photograph taken a hundred times over so you're made to feel the most special person on the earth and I think that makes it worth it for a lot of them. Did you like it so much you you'd you'd you'd do you would do it again? Possibly not, no ! But it worked? I mean, for you that big day, cos I mean it is, it's a, it's a nerve wracking occasion isn't it? Yeah, it's it's it's the build up to it as well, there's a lot of excitement, I mean, most people it takes about six months to build up to the big day, and then finally it's there and it all happens and, I think that makes it a lot , exciting for a lot of women. Now, was that the the experience of the, of the other sixty eight of you ex-wives? Yes? I think a lot of people get carried away with the occasion and it's actually supposed to be a very romantic day, and, you know, that's what it was for me. So it was everything you hoped it would be? Yes. But I think people do get carried away with traditions and the occasion and this grand affair and really, it could be a very small low-key affair, but it's, it's meant to be a very romantic special day for two people. Yes? Behind you. I I think erm i it seems very sad if we can single out one day to be the most important in our lives. Mm. And it's a very special thing if you're going to join forces with another person, and good luck to you, but I think erm it seems that, there maybe down forever after that , if it's the most important day! Er, have you been a bride? Yes I have. I've actually been a bride twice actually ! Aha. Erm and, and very enjoyable days they were, but erm I think if I were to plan a big party, or an anniversary or something like that, and I'd hope those would be jolly enjoyable days too. Mhm. Yes? I would like to get married all over again, to to the same person I might add, but so that I could actually enjoy it more this time because it's in , so much of a blur when you get married the first time that you're caught up with it and you don't really see what happens, I would like to get married all over again. What did you do? Well I was actually married in England because I'm E , I'm English, but one of guys, erm, for instance, he wore a kilt and he showed all the English what he wore under the kilt and I missed it! That, so I don't know what a man wears under his kilt ! I, oh I can't believe that ! Well, I haven't been married but I have, did recently graduate, and that was a very important day for me Yeah. and, personally, I'd much rather have er, people looking at me for what I achieved er, rather than just looking pretty on a day, I think that's more important to me. Sian you're a florist Yes. now, er supposing weddings disappeared would that affect your business? Weddings are a very important part, and a part that er, we all enjoy but erm we, I wouldn't say it was the major part of a florist's business, there's quite a few other aspects. As a florist you're dealing with most important days in peoples' lives, very often new babies, weddings, funerals, erm but no, I wouldn't say if weddings disappeared we'd all be you know, in a terrible mess as a professionals, but it's a very important part and an enjoyable part. Fiona, what about you? It's the same for us really, it's not the main part of the business Well you better say what your business is. in cake decorating and associated things, people have cakes for all occasions and erm wedding cake's only one of them. But erm again, it's it's good fun, kind of a good laugh with the wedding cake, at least with a wedding cake you're spending money and you're getting fed and everybody's getting a bit of it! And do you do a er,do as far as the cake goes, I mean er, is there a variety in er in the option? Oh certainly! Yes, yes. I mean you we, we have made, you know, black wedding cakes for people that feel, something like that, we've even made divorce cakes, so you don't have to get married to have one! What, what, what, what's a divorce cake look like? Mm. We had a bo , a broken heart A broken heart, aha. with sort of a trail of red blood coming out the middle! Oh! Roberta if weddings disappeared a large part of your business wou would go wouldn't it? Again, I think, like the rest erm Mhm. we evolved from the general fashion side, which is still as important to us, but the reason that we did probably evolve in in the the wedding side is because of th the need for us, it wasn't us who pushed it from our end, more and more brides came to us, so therefore we grew. Mm. Sort of My wedding wasn't an ordinary wedding, I was married on top of Arthur's Seat and erm You were married on top of Arthur's Seat Yes, at sunrise on Christmas Eve four years ago and, it was important for us to do exactly what we wanted because erm it was a second wedding for both of us and it was also erm we wanted to have something that represented sort of the aspirations of love and so, sunrise erm, and on the top of a hill did that for us. And, if you can find a minister that's willing to go wherever you want to go! In Scotland you can, can do almost anything. Aren't you a minister yourself? Yes. So have you, have you performed any un unconventional weddings? Yes, erm well I I've not done a wedding in a church actually yet, but then I've only done three weddings, and, but the most interesting one was in a Brock in Glenelg and erm, that was quite exciting because the couple really thought about the service and they had selected that sight because it meant something to them, and involved the whole community and thereabout, and it was great! Mm. Do you mind if I ask you about, about your own wedding o on the top of Arthur's Seat on Christmas Eve four Mhm. well Christmas eve was it? Yes, Christmas eve, well Did you have many guests at sunrise? Well we, we had about sixty erm, people that trudged up to the top of the hill including erm, one who didn't know there was a wedding, he was a runner, and then he and he had tagged the top of Arthur's Seat and was astonished to see a crowd there. What do you wear to a mountain top wedding in the middle of winter? Well you wear an anorak and a woollen skirt and walking shoes. Is that the most unusual wedding we have in this hundred tonight? I mean, has e ,ye yes, yes it seems so, yes! No ones, no ones gonna do anything crazier than that! You touched on church weddings, now lots and lots of people do get married in church, although many of them aren't er aren't necessarily church-goers, now Chrissie, can I, can I pick on you? You perfo yo as a Church of Scotland minister Aha. you perform weddings? Yup! If people aren't church-goers do you, will you still give them a church wedding? Yes. Why? Cos not all ministers will will they? Well I think it gives them a link with the church, erm and they don't just come in and say oh yes, turn up on Saturday and you'll get married, there's some meeting before that Mhm. so that we don't all meet as strangers on the day. We found that a lot of young couples that because you don't go to church on a regular basis but erm, to go along with their parents' wishes too, rather than going through a big church wedding in a church, they go to a hotel and they have the erm, wedding ceremony and the reception all in the hotel, and are married by a minister. And that So there had to be Yes. A minister will go out to a ho hotel. Yeah. Have you done that Chrissie? Have you ever Yeah I have. Erm, I don't like it er, not for particularly any religious reason but for the fact that the church is purpose-built for weddings and a lot of hotels aren't, so you get the girl with the ball gown, spent hundreds on it, and she's squeezed up sometimes and nobody can see her! But erm I prefer to marry in the church. Angela? We were married at home, and one of the reasons why is because we bought a very old house about three years ago and on the top floor it has a, a large room which used to be the ballroom, and we did a little research and we found that the last wedding that we know of in the house took place in seventeen fifty eight, when apparently it was very common in Scotland to get married at home, it was more uncommon to go to church. Mm. We did some more research and we found out that in return for doing this you had to pay the minister a fine, so we found a minister who was very excited by the idea of marrying us in a seventeen century house, and in fact, on the morning of the wedding he was more worried about what he was wearing than what I was! And erm, it wa , at the reception afterwards we actually paid him the fine er, a contribution to a a, a fund his church had for a painting they wanted to buy. They pay the minister a fine? Yes. But it's not convention of course, to pay the minister anything is it? I mean, Church of Scotland Ministers don't get paid. No. Er, it's different in other churches I think. Some, I think some people sometimes give a gift,I've never, I don't think I've had a gift ! Mhm. I'd been, a few weeks ago I'd been to a wedding, and it was the most boring ceremony I ever been in all my life! I get married about eleven years ago, it was four of us, me and my, the groom and two witnesses. It was a special day but every day of my life it's a special so it's nothing, I would not do it again, you know, just to but er, I think most of the time the wedding in here is much more geared for how the bride look like and photographer, it is all the time for four hours, how you stand, it's nothing normal,noth nothing natural, nothing Mhm. nothing happy, you ju just to stand there, you can't laugh properly and you can't do this, and you can't do this, it's worse So you think people are forced into conventional modes because they fe It was awful! How often do we, we really feel that the bride and groom are the people who make the choice? Mm. Is it not the parents Mm. who are inclined to impose their choice on the bride and groom in a lot of cases? Is, was that your experience? Not me personally but I have known a few people who've wanted perhaps, a very quiet wedding, just in a registry office, and finished up with a large church wedding. Mm. You talk about Brides' magazines, or any of the other magazines that are there, it's all set out, it's all hyped up and, I think a lot of people feel they ha , really have to get married in that way. Hannah? I was just going to say that being a photographer, we find that more and more people come with their mothers instead of the fiance whenever they're going to get married, and it is all the time, the mother has a big say in it you know, instead of the couple. Well now, there must be some mothers here who er Any mothers who've married off their daughters in this dictatorial way, saying you must have this dress! You must allow No. to spend seven thousand pounds on you! Yes? Expectations just went too far! For instance, I mean er my boyfriend,excuse me, I've been er living with him for years, and I have a child. Now I was at a wedding a little while back and all they were asking me was are you gonna be the next one? Are you gonna be the next one? It's like, I've already been asked, and I've refused, and I want to know why is it people put so much pressure on you to get married? For instance, in the hospital they were calling me Mrs, because er the stigma er, is so much, and I mean er, I even get called a single parent and I'm not! I have a very stable relationship, and also with my child, and I know that it would be very difficult for us to split up, but I don't see why a bit of paper or a lovely ball gown, or a nice cake, will make it any better for me at all? You're not No! I just But what about the child? Th er, well for instance er, the child has took his name, I mean er you know But why can he take his name when he's your child and you haven't different names? It doesn't matter because I I love him so much? What about the child though? Well why should I have a pretty dress and a cake when it's the love that's there and not a piece of paper or a special day! Up there. Er I have a great sympathy for for that lady. I think I will be a very unconventional mother, and having two daughters of my own I am appalled by the cost that this is going to erm involve! Ah, if you're to believe the press that it costs about seven thousand pounds for a wedding, an average cost for a wedding Mhm. I would far rather say, if I had the seven thousand pounds, say to both my daughters there you are dears, there's the seven thousand pounds you decide how much of that you want for your wedding what is left over you keep, and it would be interesting to find out how much they then spent on their photographers, and on their cake, and the, the wedding cars etcetera. I would just to say, I think women, women are such victims of the fashion industry and I think there's a lot more hype surrounding th the bride than there is surrounding the groom and er I think erm, you know th a lot more thought needs to go into the whole thing, there's so much pressure on young people, particularly girls and there's sa , so much idealism around the whole thing erm, and and there's a lot of alternatives to marriage, you know, and this is discounted as th , the woman over there said, about being referred to as Mrs, particularly when you're over a certain age if you're not married. Have you had a wedding? No. No. I've managed to avoid it! Mm mm. I think it depends very much on the age of the people getting married Mhm. young people very commonly are escorted by their mothers and the thing is, the politics of the family and showing themselves to their friends, but more and more we're dealing with people Now you're a caterer? I'm a caterer. Yep. probably my age and, even a bit older, thirty, forty, getting married, sometimes a second time, and they say this is our party Mm. and they are not influenced, I don't think, by a large amount of hype and fashion. And there, as someone else said, erm earlier, organizing their party, the day of their life which happens to be also their wedding day, and those sort of parties are far more fun to work at than the far more stilted family affairs that do happen for younger people. With regards about the lady that you've the relationship, a stable relationship, not being married another lady pointed out, but what about the child? Maybe get married and maybe not work out, then divorce, so what happens to the child then? Mm. I don't think it's any different. I think we've, we've said quite a bit about erm previously about the symbolism of, of a wedding, if Mm. it's a special day to you, you know getting married on the top of Arthur's Seat or whatever, but what about for the majority of people who who have a church wedding and the symbolism there that just goes unstated. This whole thing of the bride being, well often not, but frogmarched down the aisle and being transferred from being her father's property to being her husband's property and that being taken by, by taking his name! You know, there's a lot of symbolism that really has been lost, people don't think about in the wedding service, but is underlying, you know, until fa fairly recently a lot of people promised to obey, erm, look at Prince Andrew and that when he got married, you know, erm, the Duchess of York actually promised to obey him That was her choice presumably. and what does that say for, what does say for women erm, and for the status of women in this country? Well, in her case, presumably, she wanted to say she would obey him and and subsequently perhaps she has, and he's very happy with that, but that's a fairly cynical view isn't it, the the the bride's a kind of ceremonial heifer, who's had in lace, in lace? I mean doesn't that But that, there is a lot of a symbolism there that people don't seem to look at Mm. anymore, you know because it's the nice ceremony and because it's it's a do. Yes? Er, I vividly remember my, my wedding day, and the bit I remember most is actually waiting to go into church with my father, and I remember being particularly moved at that time thinking that that was the end of one era and about to become part of another and I didn't feel that I was being owned somebody and about to be owned by anyone else in the slightest! Mm. I think when you talk about symbolism of a wedding, in actual fact, what does a wedding say? It says, very little about the practicalities of life. If people are going to prepare to spend the rest of their lives together, they should be discussing much more important things than concepts, like forever, they should be discussing, what happens if it's splits up? Which it statistically now, is quite often going to do. But surely, sitting down working out the legality of it, working out sensible practical things is a much more sensible way of proving you love somebody, and that you're you're genuine about it! But you're not sensible when you're in love! You're not sensible when you're in love! Well maybe you should be sensible! ! Maybe that's why so many children are products of broken, broken ! homes now! When you're go into a marriage Mhm. go into a wedding, you go in believing that it is forever that's it! That's right! You take your vows, you commit yourself! But it usual , but nowadays it quite often But that's why so many babies isn't forever and people don't think often enough That's statistics, I mean there's well maybe statistics are . But if you have a wedding day, you are going in there saying I'm going to live with this person for the rest of my life. Oh! Yeah. And you firmly believe that at the time! Up there. Yeah? Er, I would like to know how much of the the, the, the thing about the bridal magazines and the whole idea of, of a wedding is portrayed and the media has an influence on a a young girl wanting to get married rather than the actual you know,th th , you know how much sh she knows the person, or loves the person, maybe it's the, the whole image of the wedding that takes over, you know, erm rather than the, the, the practicalities. Well Moira, were you over influenced by the media, wanting to have that No. big day? I lived with my husband for er, three and a half years, and I knew him for a good number of years before then, so we made a joint decision after that period of time that we were, wanted to commit ourselves Mm. and we looked on it more as a party and a family gathering and showing everybody else that we were now committed and we're going to spend the rest of our lives together. Well there's been some scepticism about the symbolism of, of weddings there's also some scepticism about the reality of making that vow forever, er, which I personally have sympathy with cos I don't see how you can say you're going to do anything forever, but I suppose if you've made a vow you've got to stick with it. Is it possible to have a wedding ceremony that er, that dodges those rather difficult bits? I mean, Chrissie, are you allowed to have a wedding ceremony tha tha which says erm I'll love you for as long as I can possibly manage? I've heard erm people saying, I think it was in America erm, as, as long as you both shall love instead of as long as you both shall live. Yes. If you get married in a registry office, which I did, you don't say an , in England, you don't say anything other than that you take this chap to be your husband, and you interpret that to be as you wish. So that's, entirely up to the pair of you. I think that these inflated ideas perhaps come with the old language of the church, and if you're going to do that well then, all hail to you and er presumably you mean it if you've gone there. There are people who come from from different cultures amongst this hundred who might want to say something about erm, wedding ceremonies. I got married twenty three years ago in China, well, we just invite er, invited er our friends, and er former school mates to ma , to my home and we didn't make any vow, er we just gave a banquet to the friends, and er, in China people now can get married in many ways and er some foreigners have come to China to get married in a traditional Chinese way, and they have to er, carry their bride in a sedan chair. And their bride has to wear er, all in red and er the bridegroo er groom has to wear a long costume with a red big flowers in front i aha and then they get married and there's erm band, the Chinese traditional band with drums and trumpets blowing all the time and er, all the guests have a very nice time. And in China, usually, erm wedding is an important event in the family and an , when I got married I think my parents-in-law wo erm felt erm more excited than my husband and I ! Well that's,tha I mean tha that's, a pretty interesting description of er of a different kind of wedding, which is another one er another Well optional variation that you might well I got married in want to choose? Yes? Bu I meet a erm, a different oh, tribe in Saherli but I got married in England with my, though we make , this, I'd say, this man to be my wife forever, but when I got home, back home in Ingeria you know, we did it in a, a different way. We have er, my parents sat down with a the group of the family there Mm. you know, there's no vow there, but all we do is join hands together, share blessings to both of us, and no vow, we never make any vow but they made a blessing for us. The marriage will be successful and this one it is . There. Well I'd,, I come from Lebanon and I get married in here and I said the vows but I didn't understand, at that time I wasn't speaking English so Oh! Oh! Oh yeah! That's one to remember, I didn't understand what I was saying! Yes? But in Lebanon we don't have vows, they have like kind of contract, and if the if they broke the contract it's the bride and groo , the groom have to pay that amount of money for the the bride, even if it was her fault. It happens in my country, when you break the marriage, I mean in my town, when you break th the marriage this sort of money will be paid wi then. Whe when you're to make Mm. a er, but want to, want to do a wedding you pay a certain er amount of money then, then when you break the wedding you refund the money to your husband. Yes, this is, this is, this er Who's picking up Laura's point which is that you get all the contractual arrangements er er done, but I mean it doesn't mean you can't have the ritual, be it dressed with, you know, er a long But red dress with my my complaint is that mostly pom-poms for the groom or it's, it's the pomp and circumstance and and the fluffy lace and everybody being really happy and I know people think about it, but it's not seen as that, it's seen as a a, a family society thing, it's not two people sitting Mm. down and saying right, we're gonna buy a house, we're gonna have kids, have we thought about how many kids we're gonna have? Have we thought about whether we want to have kids at all? Maybe those are the questions we should asking, rather than you know, do you take this man for your husband. Mhm. When you come from a big family, as I do, erm yo you can have any size of wedding as long as the right people are there, anybody gets excluded it's er to be horrendous! Mm. Starts with you know, I haven't been invited why I'm and if you've got a big family, you really have to do it properly and it, it's gonna cost! Well a variety of views and I think the only generalization I can make about weddings is that you can't generalize about weddings, some people think they're wonderful, some people are sceptical, people have done their own er variations on weddings. I haven't really asked you very many questions so I'll, I'll ask you a question which sets us up for a programme we might do in the next series, having discussed the wedding, next the honeymoon! Here's the question. Is a honeymoon a good way to start a marriage? Button one for yes, and button two for no. You don't have to have had one to be able to comment on this. And, seventy seven people say yes, and twenty three people say no, and aren't you fascinated to know why they voted that way? You'll have to watch the next series. From us, here, goodnight. Testing, testing, testing. Alright okay. What did, what did anybody do? Did you do the migration? No I think the mi yes, no one did the migration one apart from the Dean, he did a famine, er essay. Well I think what we'll have a look at is this er,mi migration essay. Erm, what I'll also do, we'll only sort of talk for about twenty five minutes, about the essay, and then we'll look at sh writing short answers er, for the exam, Erm, sorry, when are we having a tutorial next term? Erm, I don't think we will be. We won't. I think this is our last tutorial for this semester Right. for development or integrational trade. You may well have an ex erm, One with another one. a tutorial with you know, somebody else for health or banking or you know, whatever. Yes, cos if you think about it, we've had two banking, we've had two everything. Two, we haven't had two banking have we? We've got two of everything or we've got two of everything to come. We've got two management. So that means that, okay, supposing we have a tutorial, does that mean we haven't got anything next term until the exams start? Mhm. Some lecturers, perhaps have some lectures, you know for You may, you may have lec the lectures are supposed to finish at the end of this term, but if, you know, a lecturer has been ill or hasn't managed to get through the stuff erm, you may have some lectures next term, but er They said that at, someone from third year last year er, she said that Professor is having an extra lecture you know, telling what's on the exam those things. Well, if he tells you, he's er, he's in the min minority . Er, he may, he may be, you'll have to, to ask him, but generally speaking he does have er Yes, yes. You'd think he'd er, target to finish early this term. Yes, well, we'll just ask you to lecture us Yes, yes, that's right, I mean he should, you know, the lecturer should say this is the last lecture of term. The last lecture of the semester. Now, what they try and do is finish at the end of this term, so you've got from now on until, mid- January to, to revise erm, but you may have Or if you do you may, you may, you may have the er, er, you may have some lectures, and possibly some tutorials next term, although I doubt it. It just depends on how behind people are. Okay. Erm, so the title of er, this migration essay, is something I, what are the factors, erm, so in your opinion, no, not the right one, I've got it here Can somebody, can someone what factors influence rural urb urban migration decisions in L D Cs, and how can they effect the level of unemployment? Ah, right, okay, so what factors influence rural urban migration, er, in L D Cs and how can these affect the level of urban unemployment? Okay. So, what factors do influence migration in developing countries? We took, categorize into economic and non-economic? It does seem a sensible way to approach things, possibly. What er, what sort of factors are important? , differences of income. Differences of income. Okay, income differentials, yes, so presumably the larger the differential between urban and rural wages, the er, the more, or the greater the incentive. Education. Why, why education, I mean Because, erm, the greater the education, er, supposedly increases your chance of getting a job, opens up more opportunities up for you, so erm, you know, if there's only a certain number of jobs, the one with the most education is more likely to get it. Okay. Erm, and all Wait, wait a second, can we leave education. What about you know, if, if someone is relatively well educated, and they come from an urban, urban rural area, why don't they get a job in the rural area using those qualifications? Cos there isn't any. Right okay, that's the er, that's the er long and short of it, by and large, there, there isn't erm, employment, er, there are very few erm, administrative type, type jobs. Also to add to that is that erm, we know that a great of, basically agriculture's sort of under-employed, there's a lot of under-employment in agriculture. And erm, so, the, there's more opportunity to actually improve your situation by being in an urban area, erm, by migrating even internationally to improve your situation. Basically people are maximizing their situations in agriculture. They're born into maximum situations. Right so they're In the majority of cases, I would say there's probably a few there. okay, so the, there, what you're saying is that the, the rural wage is a sub a subsistence wage, which is im by definition, sort the minimum wage you require to live on and er, there are possibilities of much higher incomes else elsewhere, so the,the subsistence wage itself may well act as quite er, strong sort of push factor out of the rural areas, let alone erm, high wages in er, er, the urban areas. Cost of migration. Okay, what's, what do you mean by that? Well, erm, there is a cost involved in moving from, physically moving from one to the other, and also when you have to weigh up er, costs of moving your family or the risks involved and things like that, so that's all involved in that. Erm, and for some people, well for the whole of the rural economy, it's harder to, or they're in a, a lesser income situation, and it's also availability of credit, or access to funds is much, you know, people have less savings, and so forth, because they don't save. They employ it, and put it back into the land, if they do make anything. Okay. So, so, you know, for a lot of, I wouldn't say a lot, but there is a, a group in the population that are basically concerned with just surviving in agriculture, and wouldn't even consider, even if they are, say have got a high IQ or something, they just physically can't migrate because of the cost. Okay, yes, that's fine. True. Did, anything else? Do they automatically get jobs if they move? Nope. Okay, so the probability of getting a job is going to be quite important. Erm, the amount of information available determines, on the probability of thereby you can reverse it round, and say the amount of unemployment. So like we know, we can, we see on television, the rates of unemployment say in France and Germany, and so forth, so that influences our decision to up say to Liverpool or Edinburgh somewhere, and influences our decision to migrate. Now, it's a bit different, because normally we apply to a job in Glasgow, we might get it or we might not, but, you look at, we've got more of, of information, but, in less developed countries, that information is, even if it were collected, sometimes it's not even collected, erm, it's not widely available, so people's perceptions or hearsay from people who've gone before, is the information, and that's often erm, wrong. And even if it was close to being right, say the unemployment is say, twenty percent, it doesn't account for like under-employment in the, in the informal sector and things like that So is, is lack of information, or lack of relevant information, is that why we get this apparent paradox of erm, people migrating from rural to urban areas, despite there is in actual fact, twenty or thirty percent unemployment in the urban areas, and the migrants have very little chance of ever getting a job? Is that is that a reason? Yes. Yes, does that carry much weight do you think? Don't know. Well there's one school of thought, says yes, that is why we get this apparent paradox of people migrating, right, when we actually have very high unemployment. You know, what are you migrating for? Well it's to get a job, to improve your living standards. Alright, and perhaps the reason why people are migrating when there is very high unemployment is because they don't realize that there is such high unemployment. But that sort of view has been, has been challenged in more, in more recent years with empirical studies saying erm, er, sort of rural labour forces is quite likely to migrate, or some parts of the rural labour force are quite likely to migrate right, and it is rational to migrate, even in the presence of very high unemployment. But, the, what are they measuring? How is unemployment measured, they're measuring it in the formal sector, and you can actually live by being employed in the informal sector, which is often not recorded. Okay. So, so, I believe it's alright to say well people will migrate in the presence of, it's rational for a person to migrate in the presence of, of high unemployment if high unemployment only refers to the formal sector, but it's not rational if it implies that it refers to informal and formal. Well could it be, well, it still could be? Can I just ask a question? Mm. Right, you said that the reason is, there's lack of information so, that's why people migrate, because they don't realize they're not going to get a job. And the counter-arguments to this is that there isn't lack of information, people know they're not going to get a job, but they're still better off to move, so that's a rubbish theory. Is that what you're saying? Mm, that's right, I mean that's what, sort of people like Harrison sort of were saying, is that, it, it's still rational to move, even in the presence of very high, very high unemployment. Okay. Why? Why, why is that the case, well, tell me, why might people, why might you move to a, if you were a rural labourer, why might you move to erm, to an urban area where you knew there were some jobs? Because they're most likely to get social support if anybody's going get anything. How, how do you mean Nadine? Well if, if they start introducing measures to help the people out who are, if you're in an urban area like in a slum, they're more likely to help those people first. Be it I don't, I don't know be it, the expected interesting theory. is about the expected wage, and he says that people erm, base their decision, a rational mind would base his decision on erm, probability of getting a job times the erm, urban wage rate, equals the expected rate, wage rate, and he's saying that, because urban wage rates are so much higher, erm, that unemployment rate can also be quite high, and the expected gains can still be positive. Mm, that's right, because what's, what are Harrison's doing? They're summing expected income over all future periods They're, yes, they're, they're making a present value of Mm, so they're, you're doing a present value expression. So although erm, current rates of unemployment are very high, you may be prepared to erm, to, to accept unemployment in the short term, you know, because a year down the line, you may well be able to get employment. You know, if, particularly so, if you're only on a subsistence wage in the first place. You know, if not, you know, if you're very, very poor in a, in a rural area, you may think, well look, there's, there's this chance, no matter how, how slim of me getting a, sort of proper job in the urban area, thus you may well take that chance. You could, you may, what you may feel confident in er, your employment prospects, you know, if you're the, the most able in the village or, you know, in your little sort of, social environment Tribe. Tribe, or whatever . You know, you may, you may be the best, and therefore think, think you have a, or have a high opinion of yourself, and therefore try your luck, you know, if somebody must be getting those jobs it could be me. Erm, rather than, so people may, may make rational decisions and this is what Harrison were taking about is that, erm, it still may be rational to move, even though there's very high unemployment, alright, simply because people may accept a period of erm, of unemployment if it means that they, in the long run, obtain a, a relatively high paid job. Erm, we can do a little design round here. Time on this axis, and wages rates, rural wage or against urban wages. Now this is saying that that's the wage rate in er in a rural centre. So if we just add up over sort of the time horizon of this person, this person's life, right, his expected wage in agriculture, right, it's going to be this, this, this area here. Alright,if erm, if we now so this is going to be his sort of, his opportunity cost right, his wage rate in the rural sense is going to, to opportunity cost, and the sum of the opportunity cost over time right, is going to be the present, you know if we discount that by some er, if we turn it into a present, a present value, right, the present value of that sum there, right, will determine life times income in agriculture. Right if we oh, ah right, let's not discount it, right, now let's just explain this again. This is the wage rate in agriculture, right, now if we discount, sorry I've made a cock-up of this, that's erm, that's not discounted, right, if we discounted, it's going to look Why just discount it and then? Well it's just that, you know, a pound, or a hundred pounds today, is not the same as a hundred pounds in a year's time, or two, two years' time. Right. So that would be opportunity cost? That's right, yes, that's right, so, in actual fact, this area here, right, is going to be the discounted sum of all future rural incomes. Alright, now if we look at the, the rural instead of the urban wage rate, right, up here alright, now let's just say that it takes that amount of time before this individual gets a job in the urban area, alright, now if we discount alright the erm, the rural, the urban wages right, that's all this Why have you just discounted it to there? Sorry? Why have you discounted it to W R? Well it's, well, er, there's no need why that should be the case, it could be, you know, it could look something like that. But, up in the, there the migrant's decision making process will be, is this area here right, is that area there, greater than that area there. Alright, so this is the discounted sum in er, in non-agriculture, in the urban area, and this is the value, the discounted sum in agriculture. Now, clearly on the, on the way I've drawn this diagram it is. Right, but that's going to depend on right, not only the wage differential, now if the wage differential is very large it's likely that this discounted sum is going to, you know, be larger than that. But it also depends on the time it takes to get the job. I mean if we got a job somewhere out here then it clearly wouldn't be. So it's this, it's the time taken to get this erm, er, to get the job's going to be important. Now if we think of W U as being er, the expected value of the urban wage, and that equals the probability of getting a job, multiplied by the actual urban wages, alright then this probability of getting a job is going to be important as well. And that's it then, scruffy diagram, but what more have we got? An urban wage, a rural wage, right, we discount those wages over time, right and that area there, shading the area in the blue sort of box, then this it's erm, it's going to be rational for this er, migrant, this person to become a migrant. Even though, I mean this doesn't say anything about unemployment levels, levels of unemployment. Unem the level of unemployment is subsumed between, well, within the time it takes to get a job, and also the probability of, of getting a job. Alright. So this sort of, even that's just what the Harrison model erm, tells us, right, so that's, unemployment rates are, are virtually erm, unimportant in the migrant's decision. Unemployment rates now, it's because they may well be, if they're acting rationally, discount over a very large, long period of time. Okay just er, just to ask, is this erm, migration, it, does it cause a problem? I mean I thought that migration was the er, would be the cure of all ills, in that, you know, we've got wage differentials here in this, in this hypothetical economy. Surely if you migrate that increases the supply of labour, it reduces the supply of labour in the rural sector, it increases the supply of labour in er, the urban sector, unless wage, wage rates should equalize? No. What, what, why don't, why doesn't, why don't wage rates equalize? Because erm, the urban sector is normally considered to be capital intensive a sector, and the rural area in L D Cs are considered more labour intensive, and so erm, obviously when you get an influx of labour, and changes to the capital to labour ratio Mhm erm, and you would see er, a shift in capital to, to agriculture as the return on capital in urban falls, mhm and this would, you would think, because there's a shift back of capital to agriculture you'd get a rise in agricultural wage rates because that changes the capital to labour ratio again and so this would counteract the movement. However, there is a problem, capital is not perfectly mobile, like you can apply a new machine into, well maybe you could cos that's . Whatever, you can't apply the urban type of capital back onto the land, so it's okay to say this would work if capital was completely and perfectly mobile, but it isn't so, you don't get that and you don't get balanced growth of that. Because er, everything shifts in the wrong direction. That's right, I mean, in order to eq equalize wages between sector, labour and also capital has to be perfectly mobile. Now, if it's not, we know that labour isn't, isn't perfectly mobile, it appeared, migration would seem to suggest it's, it's pretty mobile geographically, but it may not be particularly mobile occupationally. So that these people go to the urban areas to get the jobs, they're not trained erm, for these jobs right and as a result, these wages rates still, may still be maintained despite the fact there are lots of people who are quite happy to take wages erm, in, take up jobs in the urban sectors, it's the fact that sort of, employers don't want them, because they don't have the requisite skills. Also, where, what are the erm, what're the highest paid jobs in the urban sector? They are essentially in developing countries. They are essentially government jobs. Right. Now, er, without wishing to generalize too much, bribery, corruption, you know, it's not what you know, it's who you know, are very important factors in er, in employment in developing countries. And as a result they are It's much nicer to say patronage, you promise to say patronage. Ah, patronage, okay, that's er, a nice euphemism to see the Then you don't like slander people. That's right, in that erm, you're, the probability of you getting a well paid job is greatly enhanced, if not guaranteed if you know er, the people who are employing you. And this sort of thing goes, is, is rife in developing countries. I mean the old boy network is pretty bad in this country, but er, it's similar sorts of things go on in developing countries, and because there's much less of an industrial sector there, the government sector itself, erm, plays a very important role in, in employment. Now, was it you Lyn who had some statistics some saying er, what proportion Fine I've got,I've got to use stat statistics to Well it works, erm, there were some Yes. I can't remember if it was you or somebody else, had er, some data as to how many of the er, jobs in urban areas where the government I put erm, studies by Helen and Tate, nineteen eighty three, found public sector employment averaged forty four percent of non-agricultural employment in twenty L D Cs and in extreme cases were Tanzania and Zambia, were as high as seventy eight and eighty one percent respectively. And I think he quote those, or they didn't quote them in much, as much detail as I did in the lectures. I'd got these figures down, but I hadn't really got anything against them, he just quickly went through the percentages so yes. Okay, so And developed countries averaged twenty four percent, so it's twice as much as developed countries. Right, so given sort of erm, public and semi-public institutions, right, represent a large proportion of the non- agricultural erm, employment opportunities, and as a result, alright, the rates of pay in the, in the civil service, essentially, are going to, going to determine erm, the urban, the urban wage rate. Now if those, erm, wages in the civil service are set, not through sort of market process, but sort of through institutional er, constraints, you know, it's unlikely there's going to be sort of er, union power erm, in these sorts of jobs, but nevertheless, civil servants tend to do quite well at giving themselves pay increases Conservative government. and er, and as a result, you know, institutes, the wages in government bodies tend to be quite high, and because gov government bodies represent such a large proportion of er, non- agricultural employment they, they represent a much more sort of, a much more potent influence than they would do in a, in a developed country where the government sector is much, much smaller. Erm okay what was the importance of implication of er, Harrison model? There was one policy implication. That, what was it, that erm people still move. Obviously, we that right, people will still move if unemployment's high, but if you try, if the government tries and gets rid of unem urban unemployment, say people have moved because of it, so there's unemployment there to start with because of the reasons we've discussed earlier, so then the government said okay, well let's get rid of the unemployment that has occurred already, by erm, either, at the same wage rate trying to well yes, the same, they'll keep wage rates the same, but erm, increase, you know, make the public sector bigger or, or do something to create urban jobs, and basically all it will do is, encourage more migrants because they'll see the probability of getting a job will increase so the expected wage will increase so you'll get migration on top of what's already occurring. And, erm, you won't solve anything. That's right, so, if you want to try and erm, minimize urban unemployment, right, or it's futile to try and minimize urban unemployment by erm, er, establishing employment er, job creation schemes in urban areas, because that will increase the probability of getting a job if you're a migrant. Right, so there are these government job creation schemes, alright. Now, because it's typically observed in the Harrison model shows this under certain circumstances to be the case, that, erm, a sort of erm, migration elasticity with respect to income differentials, right, is much greater than the erm, The rate of unemployment, the level of unemployment That's right, yes, yes, that's right, because erm, there's a gre there's a higher elasticity of migration inelasticity in respect to income differentials than there is to unemployment, any job creation schemes will lead to more migration, rather than, rather than less, so how, how best to get round the problem? If job creation schemes aren't in urban areas, are the best way to get round them, isn't it, if we can show, quite simply, that job creation schemes lead to more migration, which lead to more unemployment. The policy's self repeating, what policies might ? A policy of cross-training,for all areas. Okay, yeah, so, what might those, what form might those policies take, what might they be? on it . Yes, population controls, that's right, that's one, I mean, one reason, one way of getting rid of the migration is to, is to, is to limit population growth. Where's the population growth highest? It's at its highest in rural areas, this is what's being done. Erm, population control is always focused out in the rural areas,the most difficult place to do it, because populations are dispersed, er, that's where population growth, right, is the highest. Any other? Making incentives to actually raise the wage rates in the, in the rural areas so, sort of to, to increase production or, and through, through farming. To improve their situation, Right, yeah improve their wages through farming and perhaps That's right, put more infrastructure in so that then the farmers can send their children to school rather than work on the land. yeah, that's right, what we want to try and do is to improve the erm, the returns to, to agriculture which is the main form of er, sort of income in rural areas. I mean if you do things like that while improving infrastructure, erm, setting up credit, government credit facilities, er, so, so, so we can lend, we could lend money to small farms. Increase in information about unem unemployment itself, that is a, that is a problem, people have this misapprehensions about the probability of getting a job You could also erm, start to recognize the benefit of the rural sector, and one reason why they were discriminating, L D Cs tended to want to ignore that and sort of shun it, because it's not sort of a glamorous image they were trying to hope for in the urban sector, and, so, if they did help them, say give them units, like the repair men, units to work in, and they put them in really totally crappy accommodation, and up not where you need it, and not where people pass by with their motors and things, they, they'd put them somewhere up on a hill, overlooking a city, so erm, to encourage the informal sector by erm, sort of on a par with the formal sector because erm, their inter- reacting, inter-relating now, like they're providing cheap inputs for the formal industries and, and the formal industries are pro providing clientele all for the informal sector, and so it's all inter-linked and, and it's there now. It's not going to disappear, cos it's quite a large part of urban areas. They could do that. Yes, we want to try and improve resource allocation in the economy and one way of doing that is not necessarily subsidizing agricultural production, but remove the taxes on agricultural growth. Alright, and effectively what's, what's happening is that the government sectors in erm, in developing countries are very highly subsidized. Right, they're overmanned, alright, they have very high wages, alright, er, that is one of the major courses of er, causes of resource mis-allocation, it's this very large, very inefficient government sector. And er, one way to, to get people to stay on the land is to introduce some sort of, what we might call market disciplines, if that wasn't such a dirty word, er, into the government, the government sector where there are clear inefficiencies. Okay, right, erm it's nearly time to go, but before we do, can I just give you some bits and pieces, you, you may well have copies of last year's exam paper, but if you haven't, this is for development and integration of trade er, have a look at those sorts of essays you're being asked to do. But also, look as those er, those short answers, now it's important that you answer the short answer questions well alright, because it's, it's a lot easier to get good marks on a short answer question, providing you do it well, than it is on a long answer question. Alright, erm, but most people don't, don't ans don't answer short answer questions very well at all, and that's why they get low, low marks for them. Always re bear in mind, that whenever you do a short answer question, right, you've only got fifteen minutes to do it in. Right, there, there isn't a great deal that you can get in, in fifteen minutes. But what, what you must have, right, is a definition of erm, the er, sort of thing that you're asked to write about. I mean, factor price equalization, intra-industry measuring intra-industry trade, optimal intervention, reciprocal dumping, they're all jargon, bits of jargon effect effectively, so you must, you must have a definition. Right now, although the determinals in industrial specialization within countries, alright, now although you can't really define that, you might be able to say something about industrial specialization. You know it's fairly obvious what it is, but with most of these will, will require, require a definition. Right, so you must put a definition, a definition in there. An example of it in use, and you must have ex what I'm saying, it's very important to have empirical erm, examples in your essays, right, because they will also be required in the short answer questions as well. Right, you know, what is an example of erm, reciprocal dumping? Right now you may, erm,don't know anything in particular, but I know that the European Community and the United, United States are always trying to out, erm, beat each other in terms of subsidies on food products, so put, put that in. Reciprocal dumping, erm, you know, one very good example would be agricultural trade between European Community and erm, and America. Alright, if it's a, so you, you've got to have a definition, alright, you must have a, an example of it in, in action. Any form of empirical evidence is useful, alright, erm sometimes you know, you're asked, you know, what is the effective protection, or define, or write brief a brief essay on effective protection, right you'll, you'll want to say something there about how it's measured. Now what essentially, what you're doing, is that you're writing an essay in very, very condensed form, so it's just, I mean you still, still must have the same recipe in there when you write a short answer, right, but you just have to be very, very brief, so you know,para paragraph on definition, you know, paragraph of examples, right, erm, paragraph on some sort of explanation or erm, how it's, how it's measured erm, has it been a contentious issue erm, what are the problems with this er, with this concept erm, right, you've got to get those sort of things in there, like you would in an essay, if you were asked to write an essay on reciprocal dumping you'd, you'd have all those things in there, right, but you only need to write a sentence, a sentence about them. You know, nobody's expecting three or four sides, right, you've got quarter of an hour, not erm, you know, if, if you can write a side a half you, you'll be doing much better than most people, alright, so you're just thinking about a side really, depending on how big your handwriting is. But you must have, you know, don't ramble on about the same thing, right, cos, for, for, for any more than a couple of sentences, cos then, you know, you c start entering into sort of diminishing marginal returns very, very quickly on these short answer questions, what you want to, do is sort of say a sentence about as much as you can rather than go into in depth discussion about erm, any particular aspect. Alright, so it's a bit of er, a sort of blunderbuss type of approach that you've got, that you've got to use. Get a definition in, get an application in, get empirical evidence in, get measurement problems in erm, get sort of contentious issues type of, or criticisms in erm, don't draw, don't do diagrams as they're probably, the only, the only principal difference between this and an essay, you just haven't got the time, right, so don't be tempted, unless you can do a very quick diagram that sum, sums it up. Alright, I don't recommend doing diagrams cos you spend five, five ten minutes drawing the diagram and explaining you know, what the curves are on it, erm, so you don't really need to draw, draw diagrams in these short answer questions. Again that's only a general principle. Occasionally you might be, but erm, if I can, if you look at er, the erm, the European Community's erm, short answers, right, they've actually given you an except there, a dia diagram, right. Question, question one,question two, alright. It's a pretty complicated diagram, I wouldn't expect you to draw that in fifteen minutes, and explain the, the If they give you a diagram like that, can you just talk about the lines, you don't have to say what they are? No, that's right, yes. Basically, you could say like with gains or something, gains are A, B, C. Yes That's right, I reckon that's, that's the way that it will be assu it will be assumed that, yes everything on there is known about that, just specific areas. Alright, but you know, you've got so little time, you know, fifteen minutes is very, very short period of time, so whatever you say Not wanting to induce panicking . What I do recommend you do is er, you know, use these short answers in your, in your revision, and sort of, you know, revise on say interim district trade, and then just write a question in fifteen minutes, and you realize that you can't really write very much, and it's good discipline, because once you've made the mistake, you know, of writing, you know, two paragraphs on some aspect of it, you realize you haven't got any time to, to do anything else. You won't, hopefully you won't make that mistake again, so, short, sweet, crisp answers to these erm, these short answer questions. Don't bother doing diagrams, get a sentence in on everything you know, right although it's not Well, that doesn't sound very sophisticated to say, these are the questions when you just write everything you know about a particular issue. But they are, you do straight out what you can think up about it. Yes, that's essentially, essentially it. Apart from the essays write anyway for thirty minutes Not quite the same approach there, but I mean, it's not, not everything you know, but write something about everything you know about Alright the short answers. A, a sentence on everything you can, think of that, that relates to it, but if you do,do practise them, it's only just to, to talk about it, it's difficult to know what you can write in fifteen minutes. Right, I'm here vir virtually throughout the vacation, erm, I'll be here until the beginning of next term, so if you are having problems of any sort, or want me to run through something with you, just er, feel free to disturb me. Sorry, sorry It's alright, so come along and see me, if you have any problems, it's much better you talk it over with me before the problem gets out of hand. Alright, so, come and see me as soon as the problems start to emerge, and I can probably tell you that you're, you're wasting time and energy worrying about it, so we're going to sit and so, er, come and see me before you know, if you are having any problems, just come along. Okay, don't forget to have a few days break over Christmas, don't work all the time, have a jolly good time. See you next year. Yes, bye Come in, come in, come in Jon. Morning. Good morning. Is it? Oh aye. I was laying a heavy carpet yesterday, and my Oh right. my chest's full of st It's er gunge. . Was it a s this time of the month already? Aye.. Good? I dunno er are you taking blood cos I've Doctor to see this afternoon. Er it's immaterial to me I mean I'm, I'm, I'm totally unprejudiced. I mean if maybe it'd be better if he does it Jon because he Oh I was Aye. I was thinki no I'm no being facetious. No no no no no no no It's just I'm just thinking. He'll, cos he'll see the results then, Aye. and there's less chance of them getting lost because if we send it over to Monkland and it comes back here, it goes to Doctor , you know how he's all over the place, and he's doing it all day, seeing clinic. as he's got Strathclyde, and he's got er Aye. Stonehouse as well. May be better if he does it this afternoon pal Well that's for, you know for, for the sake of getting the, the, the stuff all in the right place at the right Aye time. Aye aye. But urine test, absolutely fine, no problem there at all young Jon. That's smashing. Got a wee bit of reaction to the Sulfasalazine and the penicillin, mind. Oh right, aye. Er normally thirst. Right. I'm drinking water and and tea That's okay. That's alright. Anything. Coffee. Anything at all. But that's about the most I had. I started off at the s at the start I was er I was getting mouth ulcers, and then well I didn't get them to the severity that I got them with the sulfasalazine That's Er funny, cos sulfasala I've been s I've certainly been using it for years and years and years with different folk fo er for something completely different. Aha. I mean it didn't come for, come out for arthritis. Arthritis , no. It came out for something else. And I've used it oh, for about thirty odd years. I never found anybody with any trouble ever having any trouble with it. And yet when folk got it for their arthritis, okay? Yeah There's no trouble with er with the Sulfasalazine Aye. So there should be no problem. Yeah, that's right. Renal problems and er I was having bowel problems ulcers in my mouth. Mhm. That's right. And I was quite amazed. Eh? Oh aye. I was quite amazed. But er if you . said you know? Aye. But er I was away for a week there, I only came back on Saturday. Good, good Er did you get to? I was away up er Nunkton Kildray it's between Invergordon and Paine It's not my part of the world at all, It's beautiful don't know it , I don't know it , is it? Oh. Oh, right. Right aye. Oh So my w Jessie and I had a wee break. Peace and quiet? Aye,we we've been having a lot of trouble with the people next door, and er Mhm. it, it's really quite amazing. Oh . I can believe it. Erm trouble with neighbours is Well it's not unusual in . I hardly think that I'm able to run about banging doors at four o'clock in the morning. It's I'm up a I haven't seen you too often . I'm up against the six footer, and a five foot ten wife Aha. er and you know. having a that's what it's . That's right, that's right. Thanks . Okay. , Jon. Right. Bye. When I said that spike went up his trouser leg and shouted and up and at them ! Ee I've Well got, I've got a market research to fill in there. Right. Come in with my little white . Don't come in this door! Come in the next door. Turn it off! Tu turn it off? Why? Are you frightened you will er swear? shit. Did I get you? Eh? Normally I wouldn't. Are you gonna ? Oh he is! It's dreadful rain! Ah? What's wrong? I even got you did I? I ain't saying it again! Is my dinner ? Er well it's it's in the oven! Well you don't wanna you start. Go in and get it. Everything I say! Heard yo me calling you. No. Yeah. There's still some flames coming out you know. Yeah. Yes there is. It don't does it? It's gonna get worser . That's that's either gonna get worser or it's gonna die down but I think it's gonna get worser . Why does she keep that fire engine? There is int there? Mm. She was right about that summat in her life. Don't matter does it? Look at that little dog. Look at them bushes. Mm,. She's like an old washer women,! Then we'll go with little doggy. Yeah, I think, well that could be a doggy there. Mm. Aye. Could be a dog. I didn't know she had a dog, I thought it was a kit cat she had. No, a wee baby Andrew calls it a rat dog! A what? A rat dog. Ah! That's cruel! Mm. Ooh now it's a . Ooh! Yeah ! It's cold int it? Mhm. There he is again Mrs . Ooh! Get some insurance. It's very dramatic isn't it? Very. You're not quite sure about these old . Ah! What? I thought of something. 's coming down. Them people have already had an earbashing! Has David gone ? I don't know where's he gone, he just disappeared? Yeah it's going down. It isn't. Mm mm. Oh! They hate it when they've lost their dog. There's a little dog, look! Oh that's a cat! Seriously, is that the cat? Yeah, that Look! I mean they're running. It doesn't matter if she got a fag out or not but it still could easily go onto the carpet Yeah. couldn't it? What? What? They're on the way squire ! Yeah. They're not are they dad? No. Not with not with Especially, now no one them. That's why you've gotta go smokeless for. Yeah. And they're not changing theirs then. And you get twice as much bloody soot! You never do? You do. Oh crikey! What? Look at the flames! Can you see the flames? That's either getting worser or better int it? Mrs and now she'll just have a burn out. She couldn't coming to me. She never does . Disgusting! Shut up yourself! I'm trying to watch this! Shut up! No, I can't do your homework! You could do my homework please! ! You know when you shouted earlier when we were changing the room round? Soon as you said you can't do it he were gone for dust! He flew upstairs ! ? Mrs . Is it? Oh I know them. Erm, thingy's chimney's on fire they said. Is it? She said looks like it's on fire. Look! Everybody goes running! Ha ha! Is it? There's all sparks coming out of it! And flames! Can you see? Come here Kimmy! Kimmy come here! It doesn't matter if she'd got a fire guard or not, but it still could easily get onto the Yeah. carpet couldn't it? What? What? They're on their way squire ! Yeah. They're not safe these houses are they dad? No. Not with, not with that Especially now no one has looked at them. That's why you've gotta go smokeless for. Yeah. And they're not changing anything. And you get twice as much bloody soot! You never do? You do. Oh crikey! What? Look at the flames! Can you see the flames? That's either getting worser or better int it? Mrs and now she's just gonna go burn out!. She come through talking to me. There's the doggy look! Oh aye! Here's the dog. All wrapped up with him, it's a wonder she don't . Ah! You know, like da dad yesterday Mm. It's only a little whippet. Mind you, she were close to that big dog though weren't she? Oh aye! She use to ride on that big dog's back. Look! There's flames coming over . She's gone upstairs ! You can't be too careful, I mean look what . Yeah. Now could They'll have to go up into the attic. Cos it's well alight innit Dave? Yeah I think so. There's no fire in that man said . And it's took all the fire out of it he there ain't no fire in that bottom one. They won't be long coming will they love? No. That fire's it keeps going in a making it go to Look! Look! This flames out I think there. It seems to be dying down dunnit? No. Ha! Mind you, every time you say that there's more comes out of it. There's most flames coming out of it just before you called them. Yeah. And he said to me you better ring for the fire engine cos it's . What? What? I think it's died down now. It'll cost them twenty five quid that. Look! I never had no fire in did I? I had a . Mam. Your idea of no fire is absolute . There was no fire, were there Dave? No. Up at Mrs 's. You're not gonna them are you? Wonder if she'll stop it? They'll have to come now won't they Dave? make sure it's out. It's out now. It's not! Are you sure. Not. Still smo coming up. Pauline's Eh? mum Pauline's mum had two in less Two more fires? in less than three months weren't it? Did she? Yeah! Pauline moved out and she moved back in again though didn't she? Yeah, look! It's still going. Where? None coming out of it now. No. Oh! There. It's still look! There's the dog. It's still going. Is fire coming off it? How long does it take them to die out? Hours. Even if there's no erm Even after there's no sparks coming out i the fireman will have to see to it now. Yeah, but even if there's no sparks coming out of it, there could still be a Inside. Inside. inside. The chimney. Our one were out but they still see to it didn't they? Yeah. It will die out over there and the flames were coming through the bricks weren't it mam? Taking their time! Mind you, they're getting too many hoax calls aren't they? It's still flaring look Dave, int it Dave? Look! You can still li you can see the flames. You can still see the flames coming. It didn't . They've had the little girl in there. Well mam, if the chimney gets any worser then all we gotta do is Mam. Mrs 's still going int it? Really ! I can smell chips. Must be something at the top of that chimney. Chips! See it's going out now look, but there's still some more. Might be that car that went David must have gone with Brian. Must be. He's warmer in there. I'm gonna watch Emmerdale Farm. It's not on yet. I know. It's only It's in ten to. Yeah. Ten to. There's a house by that . Because they, they keep coming up fucking they don't do nothing! That's just you. That is! That's another you! There's still some more flame. Ah! But are you gonna yell at my mum, dad for making a big ? But it's gone down now innit Dave? But they can ma can make sure because if you make another fire it could move in couldn't it Dave? Mhm. Where's th the fire engine? It's on its way mum, and if it's o they What? say it's on its way, it's on its way! Don't really have sirens on just for a chimney fire. They do! They don't. They do in case it co gets out of hand. Oh! So if it's goes,der der der der ! You can hear it. Mind you, you don't know where they're coming from though do you? Still flames coming. There's still flames, look! Well it's not. Well when you're stood there you can see the flames. It's more sparks that are coming out. messing a mess! Making a mess, mother! Not messing a mess. But, but Look at Mrs sa Mrs 's, it was well alight and he'd had to go all in the attic of Mrs 's didn't they Dave? Else he didn't know what done, until Davey went and told her. I think it's gone down now don't you? Yeah. You've had no need to ring for them have you? Mind you, by the time they get here it's they've probably gone out anyway! They still at it look. Look! It's still going innit Dave? There's occasional sparks now and then so it must be still going. have you seen mum and dad there ? No, not yet ! What's she say dad? It's still coming out of this. Dad? They couldn't miss,she was running in, she says, they're coming! They're coming ! Is Emma getting excited. Oh! Well it's still coming out Yeah. innit Dave? Yeah. Now if they say don't, tell them not to bother. It could get going again. And it could come up again couldn't it dad? Well alight so Mm. Have they gone in? It's still some more coming out ain't there Dave? What did she say Dad? Here it comes! It's coming! Ha ! D'ya know this could happen on a nice night like instead of freezing like this ! They're here look! You couldn't stop them now could you? No. Where? Can't you hear them? Here they are. Here they come! Everyone's just getting excited ! There's still some coming out though Dave. There's still some coming out look, int there Dave? Look at these! ! Oh dear! I'm glad I, I'm not going up the chimney! Look who started it? I don't believe I said that ! You don't believe you said that ! Good one! They've got to go up to check it now haven't they Dave? Oh aye Well the they'll check it. the invisible firemen cos I can't see them! Look! Don't knock my They probably have got lost. I think you'd better with this. Ah? If you keep it well away. Yeah! Probably coming that end. Probably got stuck down there. They are, they're coming this way. I think they're coming. That way. They're coming up tha from down there. Cos I can hear them coming. They're here! Told you! Want any of that There they are. There they are. out the way. It's down here! Ah yeah! Oh ! God! They won't get little Emma will they? Little Emma's a pest! She'll get in the way won't she dad? Here they are ri Ian's waving them now look. But can they seem him! Well did you see me? Oh I hate those blue flashing lights! It's not out. They've got to go up. Where's Mrs ? She's missing all this! Haven't they Dave? Cos our one were out when they come. Oh! Do they have to keep those flashing lights going! They've gotta check it haven't they Dave? I bet they don't. They will. Well I I think they will, I don't know. They will, they'll have to check it. They checked our one when it were out didn't they? Yeah. I can't see now! Mind you, there was an occasional sparks I reckon they will. They'll have to check it won't they Dave? Yeah. See look! There's still some sparks coming out. Still some sparks, yep. That fireman can see them can't he Dave? You're right u yeah They will. there's still some more. Come on Lesley! Where are you? You're usually here when something happens. Ah! They're probably out but it's in the erm houses that they're are erm, looking through windows. There's his dad. Going to seventeen. They're gonna check it aren't they Dave? Well It could be, it could be erm it could right in the middle couldn't it dad? Yeah. They know don't they Dave? The firemen, don't they? They'll check it. They are, they're going now. That's better, I can see now. There! There's occasional sparks coming through. They've still got some sparks coming out though they've got no . They'll go and have a look on top and have look there. Yeah. Yeah. Send Yeah. in. Are they? you might be able to see. Watch a car coming round the green! Was there was one car, that way? It looked as if he were turning his head all the way round ! Them firemen knows when it's alight don't they Dave? Twenty. I think they're gonna go up. Are they? Yeah. Yeah. Going up, if they could see. Yeah. They're going home. No. Yes. Yeah, going up. They're going up. They're getting up. They're going up. Oh! How exciting ! Ooh! Ooh! And Mrs still hasn't come out! But you yeah, well, mind you, she's not very well though is she? No. No. Her back hurts her. No one else out. They're going up, look Dave! Yes. They'll probably can see something we can't see won't they? They can see the roof. Yeah that's Mm. cos they know what they're doing. Even if they say it's out No. I don't believe they could ge It might not be out. I don't believe they could get lost coming round here not with all the back fields on fire. No. All that time. Oh! They're putting a sheet up so I don't know if they're gonna do summat. Probably gonna clean it for her, eh? Did they clean ours? Yeah. Well Putting a sheet up anyway. Look! See! See Spark. those sparks. Yeah. Take no notice of her mother then when it's No. out will they? Oh! John's out through the window! Oh aye. They'll wonder who went and got the fire engine won't they? Possibly. And Cos they won't turn the lights off. Look at that! Still sparks coming out of it. Yeah, they'll not turn the lights out until the till i make sure it's out and everything. Oh we he said it's out, but it's not is it Dave? You don't know though now. It could be or it couldn't. Why chuck salt on a ? Why not ju water on it? Cos that will be Oh! And you put salt You see if you put on a fire. if you put er water on Oh! They're taking that. But look! It's er It's still alight though. Ooh!me going up there! Ooh! Yeah you've got to write your name then haven't you? Yeah! Write your name. What's your name? Excuse me a minute can I just ? And here we go! Then what? Enter. Suppose so. That is it. Oh! This is nice and easy isn't it? Is that enter then, yeah? Yeah. Oh! Oh good! You're on your way are you? I am. We're well away! Good! This is nice and easy! I want a chair. I'm not using one of them! Okay. That's it. How are we getting on? very well. Look! Look! Look! Oh I can't get rid of that now! Can you ah can you copy to me? Oh! Erm Oh! The nought's got a dot in the middle! Not any more. And I didn't put it over there. Where's the erm comma? Just down there. No it's not. Yes it is! Oh yes it is. Do not argue! Er I want the co oh! I dunno! What are you doing? I'm not getting far. in capitals. Actually what? Yeah. Supposed to leave a space Emma! Shut up! Slant your address. Mind you if she was erm she weren't in love with a poor man, then yeah, but no I don't think she is. Mind you had his other girlfriend didn't he? He packs his girlfriend in then went with Jane, but he was still going out with a girlfriend if you know what I mean. He went, she was pestering him. Mind you, I don't know And he asked Jane to go down to sort her out but Jane's scared of a fight. Jane's scared of offending her. I know. Mind you, I'd feel now she'd mucking up. Yeah. Well her mother's gone and mucked up everybody's life. I don't think it was her mother to tell you the truth. I think it was erm him. Mm. Mind you well going, going erm getting her best friend's husband and lived next door to them as well! Mind you, if erm someone erm thought of erm if you're on your own and a man says to you I'm married but I don't like it can I come and live with you? I would say no! And you sort of like him and Make no difference. Well mind you, she's thick anyway, so She'd have to be with that hair! Oh! And I, I really wouldn't believe that her friend couldn't see what was going on? They used to have walks didn't they, all together with the dogs? They were like sisters. Well she should have known. Mind you when she says erm, when Jane says th she went on holiday with them and her mother and father's and that's when they split up. But I think it could have been over him. It could have started years back you know but who's to say. He mind you but old men don't they? Mm. Don't they just. Mind you got out. Yeah. He'd done the right thing. Yeah. Jane's done sort of a good thing by getting out, but she's gonna have to be an idiot A Yeah. Even worse! Yeah ! Yeah. I can't undersa I can't understand how comes she's got involved with the first ma guy to come along? I mean, in school You can't really call him a man. He were wet behind the ears! Alien! Looks like an alien ! Believe me, with that body and that head he does look like an alien! Mind you if she thinks she likes him then go for it! But in fifty years' time we could be saying well did Jane pick the right one? And their marriage has lasted. But th then again we could be saying we sa we told you so! In fifty years time I could be married. But I doubt that very much! Urgh! Some things will be better if you're married. Oh there's quite a few. I don't think Jane's got any erm brains when it comes to men. She's got no brains at all. She's got no brain! I mean in school right Mm mm. the simplest test you could ever do she failed! She got three! Erm just because I got ten, if you got ten, you passed if you got under ten you're a drip that's what said. Mm, so she's a drip. And she was saying to me, she says, I wish I were brainy like you! No. She says I'm brainy, I'm brainy! Well we all can't be born with brains can we? Well your one ma one erm that er example Got some , I've got some brains somewhere they just keep falling to sleep! And I doubt if your brain would fall asleep Tracey! But it could be true your brain might be asleep after mind you if you went too erm mouthy at work tomorrow shut your mouth then your brains would be working! Yes but she's not coming in tomorrow is she? Shit! Well no. Mind you, it we it was quiet today. Very quiet! Er very, very quiet ! I can't believe how much I got done! Well the letters were going alright but when it came to that the The menu. party oh! The menu I can do, I've do that's fine but, Well my typewriter my typewriter were going funny it really was. But when I pressed O it turned out W but you know as we're typing and all of a sudden you've pressed O, and then I say I press W I got W up but no O. as if I'm Every time I sticking. every time I pressed a key the ribbon kept flying up! It's either the correction button going or you need a new one. No, the ribbon's alright. It's the correction button then. Cos you put the ribbon in didn't you? No. You had a oh! You had this one didn't you? Yeah. Now I'm gonna put S I. Changed over. Mm. But I think those bigger ones, that ones they had to have today, is better than the ones you're on. Even though I can't find that button to take the other ones off. Oh I know! I couldn't find that one. I pressed every button I could find and I still couldn't find it. No I couldn't. I kept getting percentages. I didn't want a percent ! I wanted the other one. Mind you, if they give us a manual. Mm mm. I wonder if Jane used one? Mm. Now she was where we were and that office junior turned up she would have gone for there and I prob bet she will probably be quite She would of. Mind you, I could go for it anyway if I wanted to. But who wants to work in a solicitors? Be fun! Yeah but they treat you as a skivvy. Oh do they? Make make make coffee, make tea, coffee, general duties General dogsbody more like it ! Probably. Yes but where does general dogsbody lead? Mm. The front door mostly ! Oh aye. Oh well like she said today, there's no guarantee of getting a job at the end. No. But in some cases there are. Now there's us working working, taking everything in, working slowly taking everything in piece by piece we could end up with a job at the end of it cos we know what we're doing. Cor! Do you think so? Like she said to that new girl take your time learn it, get to know it properly she said you learn what was it? Well actually she said erm what did she say now? If you do it properly first time around you'll know it all the time. Mm, mm mm. But then she's taking it here, do it! But I think tomorrow I'm gonna take it in and tell her I can't do it. I was thinking about saying that ! Well you shouldn't lie to her. The books haven't come in yet. You should tell her that you can't do it. I suppose you're right. Mind you get in early while ev before everybody else gets there and we'll ask if she can explain it to you. .They stopped when Annette went through the right? Mhm. Then he stopped. And she went at around one o'clock. And it was two o'clock when they stopped talking, they stopped having their break! I've had, one! No it was two o'clock when they stopped talking. They started their break at one o'clock and finished at two. Well they were still working when we left. Yeah, because th they keep nattering and they don't get nothing done and then it after then, but we've gone. But it's ridiculous! What do you call that one with the big, Mary is it? I don't know. Seen her today. She has finally stopped saying she's got, she's had office experience. And she About she actually says that about No. Jaws. No! Oh I mean, you are talking about Jaws? Yes ! I'm talking about Jaws. She hasn't said, since we said that off that time, she hasn't said anything about her office experience. And she hasn't mentioned the incident with the erm copying machine. Mm. Well anybody knows she actually int cos there was nobody in there to, to see what she were doing with it. No. Suppose, I suppose if erm Pat or erm Annette wanted to find out what really happened they'd ask Dianne and Dianne would tell them cos they, they get to find out the truth then and she was lo lo lying. But it was a bit of a coincidence when she walked out that day and er she didn't come for a week! She didn't come back for two days. For a week! A week? Yeah! She didn't come back all week. I had flu! She didn't have flu! She said, I think she were gonna wonder what, what they're gonna do to her for for the copy machine. Yes! Mind you, they're well suited! They're both big! And bulky! Urgh! No. . If she'd have got done the pho photocopier machine she would have got, she would have got all she deserves! She would have! Just cos she's erm worked in an office before doesn't doesn't mean to say she she knows everything like she implies! Well look at me, I've worked in an office before but, do I know everything? I don't know, do you? No! Enough to run the photocopying machine ! Well you're one up on me cos I don't! I know how a basic computer works I think. Yeah, I don't, I don't think I'll forget about that. I can type. I can type. Mind you, you get . We'll put the flags out when she leaves! I'm just frightened that, in the She'll What about ! Erm no! No way! I couldn't do that. But I keep ra every time I close my eyes I keep wondering if she's gonna pop up with the same er We started there on the twenty sixth of December, November No! When we, in the, in the , in the the erm It wasn't the twenty sixth of December We because tha when we first started there on the course itself, typists first time we got into the erm it was the twenty sixth of erm of December. It wasn't because Christmas Day was on the twenty fifth of December! Course ! It's the, the, er what was it now? Twenty It was the week before. Twenty something. Wasn't twenty, it was erm It was twenty something. Erm twe twenty nineteenth. Nineteenth! Nineteenth or so something like that. So from that day from Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday, those four days we have there Jaws kept saying, but I haven't worked i but I have had office experience Yeah. and I have had office experience. I've worked in an office before! If she's worked in an office before how come she's there? And learning to type? And er, she hasn't had any qualifications. No. And her husband's eight years older than her! Oh! She keeps saying that every time, she keeps saying that! I know, that's the new one int it? Husband's eight years older than I feel sorry for the poor man! No you should feel I've sorry for her! Yesterday ye yeah, yesterday someone came in saying sorry I'm late there was an accident. And she started on about it! She's like that! You meet many people like that. Sh and she really, and she makes me laugh when she said, talking to someone and when they start working again she turns round to the next person at the other side of her! She's got no need to talk about other people. She should talk about herself! Mind you I think she owns the place myself. Ha! Like when the boss is around she goes ooh! She's as bad as me and you ! Ah! Not quite. You could both the the building shake! Er Did she give up smo did she say she gave up smoking? Yes. Well I think it was her. My mum gave up smoking. Stupid to start anyway! Yeah. I mean, what does it do for you apart from Give you bad breath, make your clothes smell awful! taking your money. Takes your money. Well fo for that much money you can easily just say, look I'm going away. Yeah. No, I wonder why? Er, a certain Canadian! Yeah Mind you, I suppose you'll go off with the Italians. One Italian. Well, they've got the right kind of equipment! Yes ! That's a new one, equipment! Oh! A few days ago it was the right body, but equipment! Well I don't mind if he's got all of these! Oh well it's just the luck of the draw there. Mm. So I like Canadians you like Italians. And don't forget the little Canadian. Oh! Oh little? Mm. You can't call that little! Ooh! We've got muscles on his eyelids! Little Canadian! What about his brother? Tiny Canadian? Well he's a only a little bit, he's only two hundred and thirty four pounds. Only! Mm mm! Not very big. Big enough. Mind you you've only gotta look at Jane's boyfriend and he's about two pound weakling! I wouldn't go that far. No. Neither would I. I noticed! That's right! Would she never go for likes of erm Matthew ? No. She goes for the ones who erm think she, they can protect her, but when it comes to the crunch she'd have to be the one that protects them. She's good at protecting ! Oh! Well she did That's right. when his ex-girlfriend came around! She'd let him he'd be . Pretending she were a dog! She's no need to pretend! Well she does look like a Rottweiler a bit don't she ? Oh! Get out! I like Rottweilers. They look like Shaun. How about the chihuahua ? Now that's Shaun! No! I pulled them. Shaun? Yeah. Do you know something? I don't know why but Hit Man look tons better in clothes than he does out of them. He does! I've told you that's because he's erm leggings or whatever they call them th they wear but the Leggings tights. stretch yes Yes well tights we'll call them they stretch out. Mm. They make him look fat. Now they're all he wears. Urgh! Well, I don't know what he's trying to hide ! Or trying to erm save but who wants to wear them kind of trousers? Oh I don't know I used to boyfriend. Oh I can see Emma wear, wear did wear them. He's grown out of them though ain't he? He's grown out of it. He's grown out of it. Andy said he wanted some of them. Oh! Oh! They're awful! I think it was him, or was it David? It were one of the two. They are absolutely awful! You don't need to tell me! I've it's yo it's not like we was ? Can't see ! You move onto the His legs. I always start at the back so there's nothing else. Er now whenever I 've me I honestly wish he would go under a sunlamp and melt! And melt! He is pathetic! Underline pathetic! Mind you I suppose his head is erm smaller than his shoulders so that makes him like like a, sort of normal person. A wimp! Ah! Did you see that ? Yes. Coming back. Mm. Er what about that line he came out with? Something about don't go with the zero when you can go with the ero ! Ero ! Oh! If he's an ero I'd rather stick with the zero! I'd rather stick with Superman! Even though he does fly around in funny tights! Wears his undies on the outside! Now I have seen Martin and they are fifteen well built Mm mm? Mm. Just the right kind of shape Fine! to go with his body which is also well built. Well I thought Shaun was gonna show his legs but no he didn't. I don't think he will, not with the erm heavy bandaging he has on his leg. Should wrap it round his face! Would What be an improvement! Oh! Shut up! I used to like that ! Well you were the one who said you wanted to marry him! I've quickly changed my mind about that! Mm. Very quickly! Mm! I suppose it'd be alright if you find the right person. Yeah. But after a time the right person could tie you down. The right person sometimes turns out to be the wrong kind of person. I'm glad I've got two to choose from. Oh yeah ! Are you quite sure it's two? Yes. Quite sure. Oh! I had three last time. Well just depends don't it? If them two turn out to be Creeps! unavailable is available and any offers No way! I might just take him on it! No way! Why? He's too big! Yeah, but he's the right kind of height. Cute and cuddly, yeah but muscle-wise I know he's got muscles bigger than muscles ! I think he's bigger than Arnold Schwarzanegger myself! He's just a big friendly giant that's all. I don't think yo I think you may be right but I don't think I could keep up with the different kind of hairstyles! I didn't know he changes hairstyles every day. Mm! Mm! It looks the same to me, until he's had it cut back a bit. I think it looks alright when it's cut back. Mm mm. Well I like it over to the side. I like it like that, it looked cuter like that. Mm. Mind you, I think I'll have my hair shaved off. Wrestle mania, see. Where he took on Hulk Hogan for the championship round? No. Way before that. In the ultimate, while he were there. Ooh! Dead cute! Mind you, he isn't the sort of he wasn't the wrestlers that I liked. If you know what I mean it was wrestling in those funny kind of shorts. No it wasn't. I remember last year his jacket now that was nice! Ah! And he looked good in that jacket. I've seen him in a proper leather jacket. A proper, proper leather jacket! Have you? Yeah. I, do you know something? When he's in clothes when he, not wearing his wrestling tights, or trunks whatever he calls them Shorts. he looks smaller. Oh he don't, he looks bigger. No! He looks smaller. You know height-wise but muscle-wise Muscle-wise bigger. more wider Yeah. which, you should be in shorts. You know that stripy T-shirt I've got the Mm. black and white one? He wears one exactly like that. Oh you, what you mean when he finds erm Yeah. Yeah. And a leather jacket. Mm. They're probably wearing those awful ! Oh yeah. I bet they're all wearing them boots! Oh! I've, them yellow ones with the black Christ! Urgh! They are awful! It's like bananas going bad! Oh my God! Mind you, it can only happen in America. Yeah. And Wrestle Mania si seven no now that was funny! Yeah. Ah yeah! That's ding ding, ding! Oh! Where did she find that dress? Oh God! She must have borrowed it off Derby! Oh! They were awful! Yes. Not, it was erm, a sequined one. Yeah. And it was awful! Low cut thin straps fairly short I am almost positive she borrowed that off Barbie! Mm. Or could she have got it off one of those star dogs! Mm! She could have! Mm. I wonder if they're going to go out this year? this year. Mhm. Er where they've just held the erm Superbowl. Ah! Football! I hate that trash! Yeah. American football. Mm. I can't understand it. Oh I can. Yo se you erm Erm there are a lot of touch downs. If you get the ball in ! it's a bit like rugby. It's a cross between rugby and football. I don't know. Now if you can understand rugby or football then you can understand I'll stick, I'll stick , I'll stick to wrestling can understand that better. Oh yeah! Get in Er the the ring, ding ding, start fighting down, you're dead and that's it! Yeah well I know all the wrestling. And I also get rugby. Mhm. I know what a wrist lock is I know what an arm lock is, I know what a head lock is. Yes Tracey! We all know what you know what it is. I also know what his mum's like. Ah!? Big. Daft. Big He's daft! I don't know. Big! Mm mm. Yeah. Can't wait till they come back over here. Ha! Well I can. Oh ! Maybe, next time we'll get to meet them close up. I got really, fairly close up this time. If you say you want to meet them close up That as well. Yes I do. You never know what could happen. Yeah. They're gonna take one look at you and run the other way! That is not funny! Sorry! Anyway, who's to say I couldn't be erm the next Mrs Hitler, or the next Mrs Genetic? Or both at the same time ? Ooh no! I get too tired! No, I shall settle just for one person. Mind you, you could let your thoughts wonder a bit. Well they do wonder ! Wonder why you're stuck over here and they're over there. Mm. Wondering why they never write back. I've come to the cil er, conclusion that Americans don't know how to write. Th they know how to make everything bigger than anyone else. And go over the top. But they do not know how to put pen to paper! Mm. It's nearly three years since I started writing, I haven't got It can't be! Nearly three years! No two. One Yeah , nearly two years. No. Eighty nine ninety one, ninety two. Two years. Two years this August. Crikey! I didn't think that was so long! I have written in two years and not one reply back. Not one reply back! Probably I don't know if it's my writing or what ! Probably is. It could be you know. Even when I typed it. There's got to be a reason that they have not replied. Yeah. They just don't know how good erm ways I'm gonna Oh no! I'll send them a photo next time then they might reply. Yes they will definitely No one with pictures please! Or send them one of Jaws! Oh! Then they'll have to reply. I'll send them one of Jane. Oh no! I don't wanna scare them. Put Jaws and Jane together. They'd not know the difference. I mean Jabber Jaws. Mm! That's what I mean! Mm. Mind you if Jabber Jaws and Mrs T over there,talking,you wouldn't be able to stop them ! They'd find They could have a talking competition. they'd find any of the conversation under the sun to talk about! Mm. And then every so often it's I've had office experience and my husband's this, and husband's that and my brother-in-law can do this, and my brother-in-law can do that! Yeah. Oh and I've stopped this and I've stopped that! Oh! Haven't you e have you heard her? And don't forget my husband's eight years older than Shh! Well I suppose it's better than being twenty years younger or whatever. Or even fifty years. Might even got married cos somebody older I don't know if it was fifty I don't know. I know someone in the States has married an eighty year old and she was only eighteen! Urgh! Yeah? Yeah. He was eighty and she was eighteen. But he was eighty, she was eighteen, not he was eighteen and she was eighty ? I said he was eighty! Nearly eighty one. And she'd just turned eighteen. Silly that! Well of course it is! How long do you think they'd have together! Mind you, do you know that if you'd marry somebody erm years older than er and that, she says, well if I die she'd have the money. But also sa That's it int it? also said that when that person, if she married somebody, say fifty years older than her, that they died and didn't leave her to pay. Then she'd be laughing! But, she doesn't want children. Well she's just a number anyway, whether you stick together. Yeah. Mind, don't take it too far when you've got when you go in er, an eighteen year old married an eighty one year old now that is going too far! What about someone twelve years younger? Mind you, I suppose it's better than being fifty odd years older int it? Mm. Well, look at Tom and Marjorie they were she was eight years younger than him. But thank God it didn't last! No I won't hear of it . If he'd of married her, she'd be er pancake. As he said in that advert, she's pancake! Pancake? Yeah. Hit by a steam roller ! Oh! four people. Yeah. Do you know I if you ask Andrea about it, anything she'll probably go on for ages, and ages, and ages, and ages! Well yeah, even when we probably don't though. She lives on her own now! Oh yeah! Brand new, this year. Well mind you, I like and my dad says is your mum twenty one again? And he goes no, she's thirty four ! Oh! And Beryl phoned my dad. She doesn't tell you everything about does she? No. Mind you, kids don't anyway do they? No. Well Brett doesn't. I still can't get over being over the edge. Course you can! I can't. I can't think hitting him but I don't think I could put him over the edge. Er er er, I can't remember him throwing him over the edge. Mind you, that's my violent temper. Mm mm. We all know what your violent temper's like! Mm mm! Make a good wrestler. Oh shut up about wrestling again! Mm. It's my favourite sport! It's not your favourite sport it's the hunky wrestlers themselves,that's your favourite sport ! Only two! Er two and half-ish! About two and a half-ish. Three-ish. Why's that? Well the You can't be than six. Er, you love . Mm. Oh ! I wonder how we're gonna games. I haven't got rid of this one er bloody yet. Sorry I can't do these they're off. Goodbye. I honestly believe I will cough up. That's if we get a typewriter I will be gone! I will just fall apart! Nothing to worry about. I'll be a bag of nerves! Mind you, what am I saying! I hated the exams at school I didn't think I'd have to go all through them again. I didn't think I'd passed. Well hopefully they'll pass them round the table. But I came out with an O level! Do you? Do you think you'll pass your R S A one? It all depends I, er, it's fifty fifty. I know it and I've passed then I'll say yes, I can do it. If I haven't done it I and er You don't need bu but cos you haven't done it, you don't know if you'd pass it or or not do you? And if you get in We don't know anything about if you go into the room sit down in front of the typewriter and the exam begins, and you do it you could pass easy, well I've done it and I've passed! No need to worry about then you get on to your R S A two ! Mind you, once you get to the know the typewriter and that I mean you know what you're doing and you've done your R S A one. And it stops breaking down with you. And you stop swearing at it! Ah! One mistake! I'd like to see that silly next to us on the computer going into an exam and the machine won't work for her properly. But I'd probably end up breaking it! Even worse! Probably head-butt it! Mm. But Or like yesterday when you you stupid machine! He looked at you as if to say Jees! She can swear! I wasn't swearing! Just said I know! stupid machine. I know. He did, he did look at you though. Mm. Oh your face though ! Although I were really mad . It caught me with my hand I were going so well and all of a sudden And there's you thinking well I'm on the other side of this book, well past you Tracey and you had to start all over again! Oh I know! But you wanted a bit of lesson didn't you? Erm, I probably would have done because I made lots of mistakes and I couldn't be bothered to go back and check them ! Oh. Yeah. I think I might get another se seat tomorrow. You're not having my seat! There's no way I'm sitting next to Oh have you got Fat face! It's not that bad. No, she never does. Mm. No. Mm mm. Nothing interesting up there. Conversation-wise or Well it depends All depends who turns up tomorrow. Mhm. I think Dianne said she was gonna be in but she won't erm Well if I turned up Well, there should be, it's bound to be when you starting a, you know, big exam int it? Somebody in the erm exam wouldn't it? She could do it when no one 's here. But they could of easily just said, well, come in Monday, Tuesday, off Wednesday, and Thursday and Friday instead of having all them days off. They should go in a separate room for the exams though. And the per people who are not doing exams still can can erm, do their work. Oh I know. Now it's not fair on those others that are in the other room doing their exams there, and they're just making all that noise from the typewriters in the other room. And you're walking straight through. Anyone! And you're walking through, yeah! It's not fair on them! They should have had erm you know,yo yo , there's another, there's another erm like another office at the top of us stay Mm. there. And there's er, steps going up. They should have erm right up the top up there they should have had that for an exam room. Mm. I don't think that the whole office isn't big enough. Should have it should have separate room for the computers and for the typewriters and for the Y T S students. They have that, when I up there, the other place I was at, you know and that judge thing, and I'll have it all to Yeah. myself. Er you had erm a room for, you had erm it were like school. You had er a class for a class for postage right? Then you had ee, you had, the white classrooms then you had er, a class with all yo with your compu computers Computers. computers a classroom for your typewriters Mm. and you took turns at using it, each one. Mm. And even though it was like a classroom situation they didn't treat you like children. And they like the computer teacher he wo he se he taught us from the very beginning step by step, or even how to plu plu push the plug in. Well everybody knows how to just push the plug in, but he ta Well what do I have to contribute? Anything. Anything. Normal day conversation. Normal day conversation? Yeah. Is this part of your er, course at college? No. No,i it's er a survey. I, I think they want to find out exactly how words were used Yes. twenty years ago, and then compare it with what words are used today. So you need people of my particular age group. No. It don't matter what age gro any, anybody. Yeah. It's just normal everyday conversation. But surely the fact that somebody's of a different generation will erm th th they would have a different No. No. Well no. method of talking wouldn't they? No,i i you see even you use di words different now than than twe twenty years ago. Oh yes! I, I accept that, yes. Yeah. Cos yo you should learn as you go shouldn't you really? Yeah. Exactly! Yeah. And I need your age as well. My age? Yes. Er, it's Twenty one! Yes. I'll accept that. But, a little bit more. Fifty and er the na do you want the name in full? No, just one name. Peter. Peter means rock, firm as! Er pa! What are you pa-ing at? Well this int it? Yeah. And here ends this morning's party political broadcast! Ah! Ha! Well what's this week? It's explain it. I've explained it. Then I shall I tell you it's spoken English. You'll probably read in the dictionary probably says at University, just . Yeah. English language, it's the first time . So how words are used in ordinary, everyday conversation . Yeah. Mm. Yeah. But people talk er relevant to the erm to their position in society don't they? Yeah. I mean so that er er the different stage of society you, you your conversation changes. You adopt adapt cheers then! So have you got to fill the tape? Twenty. Twenty different people? No, just twenty You've gotta have tapes. It's, she says you can do as many as you want. Yeah. So I've only got, I've only got one done. Have you? Mm. So all this is gonna be analyzed by them then? Have you done both sides? Yeah. It's gonna go down on computer. I could take that tape to some of the houses I go to, but every other word they use is an F word! It doesn't matter. Well I bet, on that first tape all she got, er we there's an awful lot of F words on it! What are you looking at me for? Ha! The man standing in the middle of the room will remain anonymous. We got the fire engine on as well! I thought you were stopping? Not that I really wanna stop! Except when it comes to girls! Can't get anything! Which is quite true. Should be able to. Good looking young man like this! I don't think there's anybody daft enough! Not bright either! Mm? for that you know? What? Yeah, they couldn't really make me. Ooh er! Right David, thank you very much. I hope you've got him on there. I think that is really sort of er interesting. You mean bowling? Enjoy green bowling, yeah. That appeals to me, it does. You and unemployed used to go and on a course there for unemployed do, and do that as well. Whereabouts is that? Er Warren Er Warren . They have an indoor green bowling do they? They have a big roll a big mat up . Go on. Has it still got it? Don't know. Been ages since the last time, it were about two year I . This is where? Warren Newcut Warren Newcut Just up the road. You know where you go into that school to the green building on that side So a whe whe where is it, off the broadway? Yeah. Just off broadway, you go, you get a gap between two houses Yeah. and that goes into a school I'm with you, yeah. and, just on there there's a green building Yeah. like er left. on the left, and it's do that's the one in Newcut Ah! I'll give it a look. And they And er yeah they have golf . Ah but you have to pay for it. I know. I'm trying to avoid the excess cost. I don't think it's very dear. Yeah, but it's I'll have a Yeah but you gotta you gotta buy your own er bowls haven't you? No. Do they lend you bowls? Yeah, well if you're gonna be any good at it you've gotta get your own aren't you? Yeah. Well something else I've seen at a car boot. Balls. Yeah. Wanna new telly now. Telly. I know David he, he, he i it's er How much did you pay for telly? Five hundred. You bought it? If I get you one cheaper will you wa would you want it? I dunno. Might do. Gotta see it first . But David were on about er how to start off in bowls. Yeah. And he sh he, he said i it's the most relaxing pastime you could ever have. Yeah. But he says, it's no need to be expensive but he said, don't go out and buy a set of bowls and then hope that you're gonna like it. He says, go a few times Mm. and to where you can hire balls Yeah. and, and play he said, and then try it for a, but he said you've got to do it a few times Yeah. and then a if you're gonna use if you're think you're gonna be reasonable Mhm. then no reason why then you shouldn't buy your own balls. That's right. I mean that But you should that applies to most things Yeah. dunnit? He said but what you must do is try it, if you can Yeah. and vary the er weight of the bowls Yes. wha what you're hiring. Yeah. Jus just vary the weight. Yeah. Are you leaving that here? That's . Is there er It applies to most things though, I mean, don't it David, in life? Yeah. Same as sex, you gotta try that a few times and then find out if you like it! Yeah. True. I should have got that on tape shouldn't I? It's on! Is it on? Yeah ! Is it? I'll have an inch. Do you want a nut? Got one thanks. Do you want a brazil nut? Do you? Do you? Ah! I made it last Friday. Oh God ! Oh! This is alright, I think. Go on and open them windows. What's up? Mind, I won't in I don't like sport. What? Eh! You know what you got in your pocket Yo you don't like nuts? No. Not really, he'll, he'll just mess about with it! He eats chocolate, a chocolate He'll eat one. Oh my goodness! erm but he don't eat peanuts. Salted nuts he'll have. Oh my God! Well I did ask! After. Mm. I've never had it before. He knows what he wants . Oh! Here ages! Oh! I'll go in the bedroom. Mm. Don't be stupid! Here. In there! Have I gotta get it? Yeah. Have I? Have you got Tracey's? Is it alright to pin it on something? Look at that bit of paper . then? I don't know. Oh look, because of that David! Oi! I've in here. Oh have you? Probably will. Are you nearly finished now love? Yes you have. Enjoying myself. Aye. Alright then. Do you want one Dave? Oi! Yes Margaret. I don't want any. Thank you Margaret! Do you want a ? No. Ain't seen Carol all week have you Margaret? I'm fed up with her! Telling me off! Yeah. Well I couldn't be doing with that! And you know, well I'm afraid I'd have to hit you! She does have them over sometimes. She slept in them since. Er let's hope tonight. But we're still wrong. Got a one. You know that, my work is every . Yeah. That what? Just didn't ran up. Well let's go on that one, let's try that one. At the door ! Timmy! Come on in Tracey! Thank you. Let's see Oh! What week is the sixteenth of November? Don't know. I don't know. Hey everyone! Dad we're what about? Excuse me ! Out! Out! Do you think yours ? I can't find this at all! Twenty sixth of October. What? Twenty sixth of October, what, what week would that be? Well let's go back, one, two, three Just done it. five one, two, three Da I,sa I'll tell you how to work it out Dave. six, seven That one. Here! eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve, thirteen. One, two, three four, five, six, seven, eight, nine Fifty two, fifty one. ten, eleven, twelve, thirteen Fifty one, fifty, forty nine fifty one on here. forty nine, forty eight, forty seven, forty six Please can we play down here? Yes. forty five Get out! forty four, forty three, twenty sixth of October. Forty three. Thirteen weeks back. They don't tally though. There's thirteen and three back from that one. I make four quid. There's nowhere near four quid on there! Oh no. That's from one. Oh God! Two quid. Right? Yeah. Well I've got a one fifty and a nothing. No. Which week? Twenty you can't say it's thirteenth weeks back Dave because we, there's this week as well. Well that, and that's eighteen. Right. That's sixteen. Just hang on. A nine an an and an eleven. Right. So that's four, three, two no that's gone into week five. It's twenty fifth. That's four, three, two, one. Fifty two, fifty one, fifty forty nine, forty eight, forty seven, forty six, forty five,forty four, and forty three. I don't know any of the except on there, and that, that were and tha that's, that's before er October. Before? That's way before October. Well that's last year's! What you on about? That's last year's you're on, looking at! We're onto this one here Dave. Down here! Yeah. Thirty eight, thirty nine, forty,for forty two, forty Oh! Twenty sixth of October. Yeah, you've got no payment, that's right. What about the one before? What? That's there. So the week before then It's alright Davey take them to court! No, there's no pay They don't, they don't tally. They don't tally. There's no payment week before. What's that? Twenty sixth a Just no payment. Oh? What's that if it's a no payment? Nineteenth of October, that's week forty two. Yeah that then doesn't tally with that one. Twenty sixth of the tenth, here we are! The sho there's no payment. Well what's that? Scotch mist? Yeah, but we'll have a look on other one, that's for dark. Have a look at your beginning of your book, that's on you're looking at! Dad! Dad! Dad! That'll be Yeah. that one then won't it? Mm. And what's that one? Forty one, forty two You had me going this morning! It's this one, it's over there. this time. Yeah. That's the one. Yeah. Yeah, she shouldn't make a payment. Eh? She didn't make a payment. Well what's that? I know! And the two! Five pound and two pounds. There look. Is he here? Who? Mike? No. He's on holiday this week. Oh I'll ring him first thing Monday morning then. What's wrong? And get him to sort that out once and for all! Well they can sort it out. I mean that's I'll tell him to take us ge er, all three of us to court! Me, Tracey, and Amanda! Yeah, but according to this there's a payment been put in and she ain't paid it. See Yeah. Exactly! Yeah, but if you say anything. It's all going off then Margaret int they? They got to be. I don't want to say it! Cos I don't What? mi er to be quite honest I don't believe it! What? Is she paying and you not putting it in? Ah! Get up Dave! I mark it every time! I know you do! Only if you don't And I watch her now taking the books after you! Yeah! So, they've got that wrong! But she i if they say she's made a payment, she must have made a payment. No. All except, I can see, you know when they've been asking for this money? I don't know Dave. I honestly don't No! know. See you don't! Yo you can't know! See just, she you said something about going in and ask her, and you said they put it down with that money that went missing and so they didn't put it down until paid it, but we didn't pay it. Yeah because they'd no knocked off somebody else as well. They definitely had knocked off somebody else er i what it i So they've knocked it off from everybody? Yeah. Something like that weren't it? Yeah. Well I paid you didn't I? Yeah it makes up that money that were missing. Well I paid when there was a . Cos that was the erm Oh! Yeah I know. went she got the books back. And did that. See a all all I've done is put down here what what you've paid in my book. Mm? I mean, according to this, somebody's checked this. It's not Mike. I don't think it were Mike. It definitely weren't me that checked it. Is it that silly cow in the office? Can't see in front of her nose! I mean, all I did were leave book and ask them to check it. He come out last week didn't he? Yeah. He come out to che check your book didn't he? And he says, he said I, he said I'll send it back with er, a note to say I've checked it. Tick, tick, tick! Yeah. But it's something wrong somewhere Margaret. Somewhere,som something wrong somewhere so we'll have him out on Monday. But he said the balance correct and I can't get it correct with what you've got in your book. What? And what do you say it is? I make it the Cos I've got not as much as it No er it's more. It's forty one more in your book and loans, than she does according to that book. Well how much does your say? Eh? How much is yours then? I mean all I can do is when Dave gives me money write it in here that's all I Yes. can do. That's all she does. And I check it after her. And I write in here. Yeah, but how much, how much did you have there altogether? According to that about hundred and fifty quid in all. What? According to what? In that. No. Hundred and forty three. How else ? See the this th the there's got to be summat wrong. But if you, if you add all them up, and then add up all what there is in there there's summat wrong. Mm. What, what balance is it in, on that bit of paper Dave? Got last week's payment out of here? Thirty six ninety eight I've got. Oh! Who's this? Mm mm. Thirty eight thirty six Tracey? thirty six ninety eight on dock. And Linda. Mm. Forget Linda. Yeah but ow! No one paid me last week. They get Tracey and, and Linda. No. One of them didn't. No, one of them paid you didn't No. she? Oh! Just Linda? had the book. Just Linda? Right. Tracey! Ju jus jus jus ju I'll tell yo Tracey I'll tell you what Look! Dave! Dave! Yeah but what you got on dock for Tracey? Thirty five ninety eight. Well there's thirty six ninety eight on this. Yeah. Exactly! Right! Right! What you got, what you got on er Look shut up! Just let me explain! What you got on er Ha! Look! loans? Look! Just pu just tell me what you've got Well on loans! Dave I'm just trying to tell you! Right! You know the two pound what I know that. What you got on What er what you got on loans for her? What Linda paid last week. What you got for her? You know the two pound what Linda Yeah. paid me last week, that went onto Tracey's. No it didn't. It did! Because I've just had a look here. It shouldn't have. It shouldn't have. Yeah! But I mean What you got on loan Do I ever know who's whose in these this house here? Yeah! Course you do! Well you marked it in Linda's book! Didn't mark it. You marked it in in Linda's book. I know! But, on here I've marked it on Tracey's What you got for Tracey on loans? So you got a two pound transfer? And what you got on Tracey on loans? Off Tracey's onto Linda's? Eh? What you got for Tracey on loans? Hundred and eight pounds eighty five. Then that's wrong here. How much is that, hundred and seven? Hundred and nine. Yeah! Yeah! This is what I'm just saying Dave! Right. But if I added The two pound if I add these up,th th there's, they're, they're, they're different again. That is right, that's docks. Yeah. That's right. But when yo when, when you come onto these See! oh that's Graham's. Don't know how to do we? Don't let him tell him does he? Are you up and paid Yeah. for these? Exactly! The two pound what was given so I'll ask them to transfer that onto your whose ever book next week I mean, if I add all them up right? What? I add all them up. Yeah. Whose is this one? Tracey's. Right. Add that up. Then add the two together it didn't tally with that. No. But can I ask you something? Can I take Linda's book in to have the total? Get your book. See I've there's two pounds I've cleared that. Cos I never o know who's who in here! So how much is it altogether? Well all it is, all it matters with me Hundred and forty quid according to that innit? all it is with me Yeah. I mean, he's paid me two pound, right, last week But that was cos that were well, didn't it? Didn't you? You Well I paid me two pounds. and one o Yeah. I paid you. Well I've put it onto Tracey's. Okay. It should be just under a hundred pound. Er, there were two pound payment put through Wanna get that the, the video? er and all it wants is doing is transferring off. What are you looking for Tracey? No. It's over there. All they'll do is put a local transfer erm, thing in. So it sho still should only be the two pound out. I put it in the back of the red thing. But what i should actual fact be, one should be owing two pound more than what it says and the other one should be owing two pound less. Yeah but Sue got it Sue got all the tried er everything I could to, to get it to to tally. Linda. Yeah. And then Hundred and one I think. Hundred and eleven. Eh? Don't know what it should be. Er Hundred and forty six on this. What? On whose? Tracey's. According to this lot. I haven't checked, no you've just said Linda before. No,bu er on Tracey's together, is hundred and forty six, forty three Oh no! on this. How much? Hundred and forty six eighty three. Hundred and forty four eighty three. But then I put two pounds, which should have been off Linda's. Cos you didn't pay me owt off You can have that. I should have real ah? You can have that. I should have realized when I'd taken Tracey's book in. Right. I'd put it just down here, I marked it down here when I were here last last week. I marked it as Tracey's but I were taking Tracey's book in weren't I? So I So I picked Tracey's book up. get a letter from the girl there then. Mm. Yeah I know. What about? To say I haven't paid, but I have! Well no you'll not get, cos I'll take this in and say, look, can you just transfer two pound off Linda's onto this. I mean, all it, all it means Off of Tracey's onto there. Yeah. All it means to me is one owes two pound more than other one. No, no it but if it'd be, it'd be understandable if we were identical twins but we're not! But we're not! Yeah but I mean I don't I just you're just names to me, do you know what I, I mean, I still don't know who, which one you are, now even though you said. Who are you? Linda ! Eh? She's Linda. Yeah, I know. But I mean That's Tracey, this is Linda. I dunno, I always think that one is Linda and that one's She's e she's Ivy's daughter. I know. Yes! And that one's Ivy's daughter! I know! But i if you put yourself in my position and all you do is call God forbid it if ever I put myself in your position! No but You know what I mean ! God almighty! Yes. Have you got Tracey's middle name on there? On their books? Tracey Anne? Yeah. Then you can't get really stuck can you? Yeah, but I still don't know who Tracey Anne is there! That one's You don't Linda now. Yeah. Yeah. Mine's just plain Linda. I'll try and remember. Ah? Hers is just plain Linda. When we get some money we'll get name tags! Yeah. Linda, Tracey's got a middle name. And Linda ain't. And I'm blonder Yeah but she's blacker. but to me. Yeah. Dark hair. Tracey hasn't Well I just know that Tracey and Linda and I don't know who's Tracey and Linda. You know who Brian and David is? Yeah, because they're I dunno. Brian ! No, I know, I don't mean owt, owt wrong but I just can't remember these two names, I don't know why, there's something I've never been able to, cos I've always said to you ain't I? Margaret don't punish yourself! Even these two get mixed up with us. I know. Yeah. Yeah. But it's very, very I ain't sometimes I check and ask Tracey for Linda. I don't know why it is but probably because they're always together. I think this is what it is. And, I mean, even when I say make a cup of tea Who are you now? I'll even ask them! Don't I? It's because a there's summat. I don't know why! But I'll get yo that two quid transferred. Would you get mixed up with her? Oh chuff me! That's, I bet that's some sports thing. It's a load of shite that paper! To be perfectly honest! Yeah, I'll get you your two pounds knocked off o er From Linda. Tracey's onto Linda. Listening Linda? Yeah I'll cha Yeah I, no I know, I know where I got it. And I'll just put a note in. But I mean, that were a simple mista I mean you made a payment of two quid didn't you? Yeah that saves you making a payment don't it? No, well I mean, it weren't as though I hadn't put a payment in it were just that it probably was this taking Tracey's book and I marked it onto Tracey's, er, Tracey's book. Here he goes look! And How do you know? Eh? But that will be in together or not? Do you think you can get me something didn't he? Must be in there. I mean I have put a payment in,i it's not as though I didn't, I mean that was quite easy mistake to make, to me. But erm I mean, I don't know about other. Cos normally they both pay anyway don't you? I think I might have to er change the wallpaper. Oh! Don't you Dave? Who'll come out? Mike. Ah? When did you pay in? Last Wednesday. Last Wednesday? No, he's Eh? been on holiday this week. No! Last week Week la week past. week last Wednesday. He said to Tracey, are you not paying? were they? I said, what have you come for? He said is Tracey in? I said, yeah. What do you want her for? He said can I have a word with her? Don't worry about me! I said no. Mother! Dad. Don't worry about me! No. And he said, is Tracey in the kitchen? Yeah but he's probably done tha knows who's anyway ! I mean, I doubt if he'll know who's Brian and who's Dave to be perfectly honest. Well, there you are then. Eh? off me. That's why they're always going up to him. Mind you, he and Uncle Brian they are identical twins people can find out who they are but, well they can't find out who we are can they? Don't think it matters at work. Oh your tea's here. Yeah. you can make make it right next time with Tracey's and Linda's anyway, if they hadn't done it in office because I can put two pound what Tracey paid onto Linda's anyway, it'll still balance it out won't it? Do you know No. what I mean? No! It will, yeah! No cos Ta Linda'll be a way behind then. No. Er say, I mean they normally give me three pounds don't they? It's, it's, it's, it's th th the mix up has come on, in that book it's Yeah. not on their cards. Oh no, it's not on the cards. But I'll pay as the erm Well I'll tell you summat No that that were my mistake that. I'm not having owt to do with this! No that were my mistake, which er, is a genuine mistake, I mean sh you paid me two quid, as I say, I don't know who's whose now And then you that was Linda now. Tracey didn't pay that did she? No. Tracey didn't pay. But I took Li Tracey's book in and probably I've seen the Tracey and marked it down there you see on Tracey's instead of Linda's, which, I mean that's a genuine mistake int it? Well, who put that Well he doesn't on card? Ha? parcels haven't been marked. What's that? Er, woman that he were to go to Mr . a woman? Mm. Where? Him who er were getting engaged to? Called David, I think they call him. Mm. Or is that guy from He lived down Station Road. Ah! Station Road, course he lived Yeah. down Station Road. He used to baby-sit for her. Oh! We heard today they were supposed to have been getting engaged to er a seventy year old woman! Who? Ernie? Mm. No, Gwen. Don't live round that though. No, she No she li lives at er Doncaster way. She don't live at Doncaster! She's supposed to live down Station Road in Hatfield. That one he's supposed to be engaged lives her sister. Mm. No, that we that were one of them. That's it! That were one of them. No, the other one who's, who's supposed to have a That's her! a son called David. That one what's got the car? He used to go babysitting for her. Do you want a nut, anybody? Nut's, no. Ernie's just bought Let's have a nut then. Ernie bought her a car. She hadn't got one He's supposed to have been a with Provincial. Who? Ernie. Well they're an insurance company aren't they? And he's supposed to have got four thousand pound from them. Two lots of two thousand pound. And the solicitor wants to know where it is. He wants every single penny accounted for before he starts doing anything. But she's that we He had er, fourteen and a half thousand pound once in a building society four year ago there's nine hundred pound left in his bu er, building society account! They want to know where that is. She, The solicitor, nobody else, just the solicitor. Er he's got some insurance policies one's for eleven hundred pound right? And they're gonna pay that. And that's gotta go straight direct to the solicitor. Also, he's supposed to have had an insurance policies but General Accident said it's only for a year and he took it out in seventy seven to nineteen seventy eight. But he's still got the policy life insurance on it. He was insured with the Co-op. He was insured with the Co-op. Oh that were a that'll be bound to come. So that's I don't know. Yeah, he won't pay Mrs insurance money out yet will he? No, he, he, he, he's gotta pay it to the solicitor. It all gotta go to them? It's all got to go to solicitor. And that fourteen thousand five hundred pound every single penny's got to be accounted for. Well who's gonna know about that then? The bank. Building society he put it in. The solicitors who gave him the court order for them to release all the details on that. And even that car he bought the Who? the solicitor can take it off him The solicitor wants to know why And he'd bought a car had he? Yeah. For a boy. Bought a car for a boy. Who's, the one who's supposed to have been getting engaged to son, and they call him David. No! He weren't engaged to her, she's a married woman. He used to go babysitting for her. He used to go babysitting, he's bought her a ring and everything. Yeah! But she's got a husband. That one's he's supposed to be getting married to live at Wellingdon And she's seventy year old er and Yeah! She's actually Mrs 's sister. I don't know. It's all mixed up and jumbled. I dunno. I'm not bothered. Fog's coming in. He lives at Bath though. I don't know. Honestly I don't know, I mean Who's he reckoned to be? Roxy Music. And he works at the ? Oh stop analyzing! All I know is Cyril's got his bird that's all I know! Ha! Well they had a they've had a bill for er bird seed Where from? Don't know. From some from somewhere three days after he died! Well I don't know where it were from because Ernie used to get his seed from our shop. In Staythorpe. Yeah. And it weren't Brian that sent it. Well he's got it, he's, he's got his, he's got erm a bill and the solicitor has told him that under no circumstances must I pay it. Don't pay it! Under no circumstances must I pay it! Yeah I know! Well I don't think you're daft enough! They must be nice them nuts. Dad! He's eating them! It's alright, it's still going. Are you switched it off? Yeah. dark. Yeah. What? Dark. It's for Linda. I'll let you read it in a minute. If I can find it. Now stop it! Dad! No you don't! You'll have to put it down soon madam! Is the heating on? I don't think i I don't think I could wear a dress like that! Probably cos it's all the peanuts you had! Ah! Don't be cruel! What's this for? Market research. Then you get . I'm recording you on that tape machine I think. It's for erm tt everyday conversation. Everyday's conversation. What, me and your dad shouting at each other! Yeah. Eh! I might well have got that onto another tape and then every time she says something you just say look what you're doing ! That'll do! No more now. No more! Come off it Dave! Come off it! Well that's not really working. What? Margaret's not in the . I wonder if Terence'll come today, do that outside wall. Yeah. They've got to fill it up a bit. Get your feet off your ask her for it then! Ask her! Ask her! Hang on! Do you know how much these are a bag? No. Really foggy! Dunno. He's not bothered as long as eats them! It int half coming in! Do you know how much? Sixty five pence! Six ? So Margaret we all enjoyed eating them! About another hour and you'll not be able to see Corky's fence. I'll be glad when our Brighton's off. Here! Be entrusted to get him on time. Er do you want some advice? What? Get done as quick as you can. I've only got two more to do. Yeah. It's coming in look. Christ! Every time Margaret then moves in well, here goes ! Oh aye. Yeah, you're done. He wants to get in there. What he nor what he normally does is he, he grabs it off of you, and go run away with it. And you,cos there ain't one in Yeah. there. Cos he want more and more and more. I'm just but he needs it. That's enough. Every week. Every, he wouldn't eat them. He would! He likes them. They're quite er moreish . Don't give him no more Margaret. He like nuts and raisins as well don't you Timmy? He, no he won't be. Plenty of salt in, in them. Yeah but don't give him no more. Why? He's had enough now. Come on! Eh! Eh! Timmy! And he'll be straight in, they'll be blowing him, and blowing him up! Aye. That's enough now. That's enough! Tha eh! Eh! Come here! It's Margaret, having trouble with it! That's enough now! You know, come on! He ate, he ate salty nuts as well didn't he? Now you know . That's enough now! Ah! Ah! I wouldn't,no not you. No! Erm, Timmy! No! Eh, this, Don't growl at me! Ask her! You're not having no more! Tim! Come on then! Ask her! Nah! Aargh! Aargh! Aargh! Ow! That's a good, He's a hungry little dog Margaret ain't he? Mm. I said no No! more! He said bull! I said no more to you! Ask her then! Ask her for what? He went, he'd been a, he'd been . He's asking you? He's asking you now! He asking you! He asks. Er, there's Marion going to work on bus gets to outside my dad's club crash! Back of bus. I jumped out my skin nearly! Er, summat had ran into back of bus, I don't know what it'd done to, whatever behind us but it didn't hurt bus. No, it's got a great big steel girder at the back! Eh! Out! You! ! We've nearly had Margaret's nuts. I bought them just for the bag though. Have they got salt on? No. They're just brazil nuts. That's it now! No more! And you don't have any choice. Well what had hit bus? Don't know. I didn't get out to see. Did driver get out? Mm. You could have just turned round and had a look. You were fit to weren't you? Somebody had bumped into Craig's car. Where, in Scotland? No! Coming out of his road end. And he said, come out of his driveway, turning into Rosebury and somebody forgot to stop! Coming out of Rosebury straight into his side of car! Serve him right! The insurance, insurance will pay for that won't they? I heard this one. Just give him a dead eye. Hey! Hey! Oh That's enough! Tim! ? Yeah. You! Get and get leathers! I know he went mad up town. Go and get You get leathers! Leave him! Come here. Go and off Margaret, go on. They say they don't like this, used to like nuts. You're not too fussy are you? They let him come and he won't get any biscuits. All gone now. All gone now. All gone now Tim. All gone now. She ain't got any more now. You've damn well eaten all my nuts! He wants your . Do you? You can't have a cigarette. . Pardon me! I burped. Are you not at work yet? Monday. Monday. Monday. But Well that's bad innit? He's had tonsillitis! Oh! He were poorly when I seen him. I know. How am I supposed to stay in? Look at it! Eh? Oh aye! You're supposed to stay in if you go if you suffer with asthma or I know. owt like that. Ooh it is coming in now! Can't see them trees up there now look. Oh no! We've had enough people ! Ah? We've already had one of those. We've already one ain't we Dave? It were useless! You got some ? I know I've got some Tunes that are good. Sweeties Timmy! Here. Our Neil has them. Eh? Our Neil. I like Pot Noodle, but I don't like that sa rubbish! Eh? I like Pot Noodles, but I don't like that rubbish! What, sweet and sour? Chicken. It's sweet and sour. I hate chicken! She always looks, she doesn't use this erm No! No, give me one of them. Cos he'll be jumping all over it! Rolling all over it. I shall have a Tune and get on my way! I shall play my tune! Oh don't, we don't want the weather . You won't,and all. No! If my number's up, my number's up! No. Margaret when you go and,last week when you out of here. It were . Yeah but it were down now Monday. Oh! It was around here! Hampton Road. Ooh er! I don't know. There were a couple of ambulan ah Ambulance and er, paramedics. Yeah. Somebody said a kid got knocked down. It weren't on Broadway itself. It turned down one of side streets. And, I nearly got up to Beachfield cos Carole said ooh it looks as though it's going down Hampton! And I never ca I couldn't catch it up. God! It went full belt didn't it Dave? Yeah. Ah? down there. Well apparently there's an old man down there Who got asthma. that's got asthma, and he often goes into or dia he's a ba diabetic or summat and goes into comas. She told me his name, I don't know. And you know erm Hilary ? You know George , that used to do fridges? I dunno. There were Gill that, Gillian, Hilary, and Lynn three lasses with long hair at school? Come off Grange. Gi er Gillian's got right blonde hair. But they all had plaits right long hair, all of them. I know Trevor used to see them. No. Wi Willie , that's all I know. No they we who got into trouble ? Yeah. No. Were they cousins or summat? No. Well er she, she works at Midland Bank in ta in Thorne. She's about thirty eight maybe. Oh! I've seen her. If I remember rightly Call her Hilary, she's darker now. She lives on Menson Drive. Her husband's just collapsed and died! Forty one! Oh he looks nice don't he? Who? Purple Rain. Ya? Do you not know who I mean? No. I think I know cos I se I think there is a, a, a, erm er Eh! That bungalow is erm, empty where your mam, next door to your where mama used to live. It is empty. They're knocking down . An old man and woman lived there didn't they? Yeah. Who had a garage built onto the side. Mm. And er, the last time I saw them they had a Morris Minor a gol Morri er a blue Morris A blue one. Minor car. Cos he er, Does Mr still live there down there? Do you know who I mean? No. Dan ? Don't know. Don't know who you mean. Where your mum lived he just lived down the corner. I didn't know any of them. I didn't even know them who, who lived next door to her at the side of . All I knew is my mother talked about her that's all, and she, she, my mother knew her but, I didn't. I didn't, Who the hell's that? Prince. Prince. He looks nice though don't he Margaret? I don't know. Not as good as Michael Jackson is he? You reckon he's any good? He's rubbish! Oh a brilliant dancer! He isn't! Oh! Ooh he is! He's just , you love doing it! On er Oh! Barrymore Barrymore. Did you see that young lad? Yeah. I thought he were brilliant that little lad! before Michael Jackson did. More practical him living Well he won't go short of a of his erm, tt thingie will he? No. Oh yeah! No I don't like him. I do. He's tries to look like Michael Jackson don't he? Well he di he did a video a and it's a wonder it weren't banned! Who? Prince. Oh the thing wi With his trousers ? Did he? Oh yeah! I've seen one oh it might have been Michael Jackson Michael Jackson. having it off with Sheena Easton? Nah! Having it off with Michael's, er Michael's . Oh dear! Why, didn't you see it? Right I'm going. Are you? Yes. Yes. Right. Byes ee bye! See you! Yeah. Come on, what's wrong with it? Well it's a good letter but your spelling mistake. Ha! What you should do is erm The spelling mistakes only occurred when I was shouted. Yeah. Don't worry! I'll put it right. Well do it at work then if you make a mistake just ru ru rub it out. We're not, we'll not be allowed to. How do you know? Mhm. Well do it when erm Pam's not there. That's an idea! Do it on Wednesday. Mm. No, Thursday. At work. Friday. Why Friday? No I can't do it Friday cos I wanna send it off Friday. I'm hoping to get a reply Mind you , we won't be going up into, up into to thing until later. Will we? Yes, but I want to send it from town. You know, er, we finish work go into the post office and get the reply stamp from there and stamp it and post it Mm mm. and it goes from town then. Quicker! Mhm. Cos it'll go into the sorting office and straight Yeah. But then again, I suppose I could do it without the though. Yeah, well you could but mind you, you'll have to do it anyway. Mind you, you could leave it till Monday, next Monday and post it. No I want to get it off as soon as I can. Don't forget it's in April. And then not long it's not long till April, then we've gotta gotta get visas and everything. Work permits. Mm mm. And erm green card. Green card. The backing. The backing. Mhm. The packing. The packing, the backing ! The persuading! The wardrobe. We gotta Wardrobe. have new wardrobes. We'll want a complete new wardrobe. By the time we get there it should should be warmed up in April. Oh I hope so. It's freezing over here! Mm mm. So we Got to get the connection. Make er, we'll have to make a list out. And then we've gotta get phone numbers. The Yeah. international dialling codes. But first you've got to get permission. Permission? Permission. Oh! So we'll have to write to erm we'll have to write to the erm Yeah, I know where you can write to, yeah. Yeah. Gotta get permission from there and then passports. That's the important part ! Passports, visas and and all this lot. Yeah. And erm I've got to have my hair done. Your face done! With a bit of plastic surgery here and there this you know! Plastic surgery. Don't need plastic surgery. I'm a perfectly beautiful plastic surgery is not needed. But in your case it's well needed. Yeah ! Oh! Tt. Oh! But first, we've got to finish work. Mhm. It really gave, gives erm jabber jaws something to talk about wouldn't it? Jaws three! Well it could give her something to talk about but she'll be more worried office experience and how old she is, and all this lot! Ah! There's something very, very important that you forgot to say. What? And you got your hair done, and you got wardrobe and then you got all this lot and that there's one other thing. What? You've got to get one very special on your side . I said that! Make arrangements, and get people on your side. Well you said that. Oh yeah! And I thought of something else as well. And besides, if it's all rigged like they say you do it'll already be arranged for us. Music! We need the music. Ah! No wait. Well sort that out, later. Mm. The jewellery. I want jewellery! I would think of erm having er pearl necklace. So that I can take it off and if she gets in my way you can smack her with it! Oh no! Diamonds. A thick diamond will do that better. Cos you see it cuts. Mm mm. And she needs her face rearranging. She needs everything rearranging. Well mind you, what you could really do is just erm, sort of erm have a hammer necklace. Hammer? Hammer necklace. Say it's, new fashion jewellery and every time she gets out of hand just bash her one! Mm mm! That's an idea ! Yeah, well I'm brainy. I come up with all these ideas! There's something else we have to arrange. What? Where to stay. Well If you're thinking what I'm thinking you better think again! Alright, I'll think again. We'll have to stay in an hotel. Of course you could stay in an hotel! Oh! Now which one can we stay in? So many to choose from! Yeah but it's , is, you don't know where you're going first. Hilton. Er yeah bu Hilton, yeah! But where is the Hilton? You know, I'm not sort of er And we've never to so we don't know. No. Ah! It's Hollywood. It would be expensive over there, Hollywood! Well I don't really want to go to Hollywood. Yo well you'll have to if that's, if you're touring. Yeah. Maybe. And don't forget Mind you, there's people you'd miss over here. Yeah. Family. Friends. What friends? Tell you there's one person I wouldn't miss. Who's that then? Jane. I don't think Jane'd miss Jane ! I don't think Jane can see Jane. So we're really going to do it then? We're really going to take If the plunge? Probably, yeah. If we get accepted. Yeah. Be exciting! Very! And think of all the publicity. Mm mm! Getting recognised in the street! Er probably. The big welcome home we'd get if we came over here. Especially if we came to Sheffield. If we were there. Yeah! Home, a sort of home ground as it were. Mm mm. We'd be Bryan Adams. The attendants! Nobody could be Bryan Adams! But Bryan Adams could. Well oh yeah! Mm. So but there's one thing ambition and it's to smash that silly cow in the face! B I C T I will personally do Well le ge well why don't we just use both fists? We could sort her out together. But you're forgetting one thing. Double You're forgetting one thing. What? She wants what I wanted. Please! Don't ever tell anybody you fancy Like I was saying, don't ever say you liked him! If you tell anybody Well you did once. if you tell anybody I will deny you are my sister! I will deny everything! Deny everything. But it's true, I did like him. But honestly don't know what you see in him. Dunno what anybody can see in him! He is awful! I noticed that when the camera got onto him ! You know that he is, you know what they say cameras pick up things. I've been on camera. I'm going to be on camera. I've been on camera and it is nerve-wracking! Even if it was in front of the school it was nerve-wracking. Cos I made There's one thing I don't like and that's having my photo taken. And it will be hard when we have to photos Photo sessions! And just think of all those cra cameras! I know. I always crack the mirrors I look in! And all them people saying ah! She's beautiful! But she's not. Well I mean but In her own way ! Well put it this way Go on then. a dog's better looking than she is so you're in with a chance! Well she's just called Sherry. And don't forget, our dog used to be called Sherry! That's another thing I'm gonna get her on! Mm. Oh! We had a dog once called Sherry! Mm. Yeah, as long as I look like her. Ah don't! But she was better looking than you! Ah don't! I like Sherry! I have just insulted of the dog world. Yes you have. I apologize. Thank you very much. Why are you accepted ? Don't forget, our brothers are dogs! And er we've got a little dog. A little pooch. Little pooch! He's so cute! Ah! Sleepy. So Yeah . So you got I think, I think maybe I would refuse to go, if I go in front of a T V camera. Especially if we were doing an interview. Ah! And don't forget the talk shows we'd be on! Ah no! Do you think we could do you think we could forget about this plan of ours for stardom? I know I'd, I know I would freeze. I'm not doing it for stardom. We could make movies! No thank you. You're right though that's when I would freeze. Starring role with Tom short Cruise. Bloody hell! No way! He's too horrible. Mind you co could be even worser What could be even worse? Acting with Tom Cruise. What could be even worse than that? Acting with Dolf Lundgren! Oh! Gees! Sylvester Stallone? You're getting worser! Arnold Schwarzanegger? Ooh! No. ? Or, Macauley Calkin? Now I wouldn't mind that. Macauley Calkin. He'd teach you a few tricks! Yeah. I could boss him around because he's only young! You could boss him around. Yes. But I don't think I'm big. Mm mm. Look in the mirror? Oh very funny! Well if you think that then you go on your own! Wherever you want! Oh no! Don't want to do it on my own. Well just leave me and stop ma teasing me then! I'll stop teasing you. Promise? Promise. Really, really promise? Really, really promise. Oh! Alright then. Cor! I sound like the cheese advert don't I? Oh! Alright then! There's one difference in the you won't be kissing erm Veroni Veronica Dribblethwaite! Or her! Do you know, you know when we're talking about moving to America and Mm. be in films, well I'm very nervous , we haven't, we haven't even been accepted yet. America, yes. Canada . I wanna try white water rapids. Ah! You don't? I do! I don't know why. It looks interesting. It may sound interesting but it's very dangerous. Don't forget there's all those rocks and the water is cold. Alright then, I'll send Sherry down there. I'd rather throw her off the Empire State Building! One better take her parachute jumping and forgo forget to give her the parachute. That's even better. Mind you you don't want the ground splattered with horrible things like that though. No. So that sleep on it. Yeah. Well I'm gonna think about what I'm gonna put in that letter. Mm. I think it could do with changing. Mind you my new wardrobe would be bright colours. So would mine. And not dull colours. No, not dull. Not brown horrible shirts! I think I might change my hair colour as well every week! Oh no! Not dyed, wigs. You know, one week go out with red the next week go out with pink, pink, bright pink or even blonde. Don't you dare! No I won't. You can go out with any other colour hairstyle, any other colour hair you want, but don't you dare go out with blonde! No. I won't go out with blonde. Cos everybody'd be thinking you were me. Mind you, does it matter? Everybody says we're the same anyway! Yeah. Well I'll erm think about it. I'll tell you what after we've sorted her out we'll sort it out. Him! Who thinks he's erm It! The right word for him! Oh I hate that name anyway. It'd be a daft name to live with anyway for the rest of your life! Mm. Now, who'd want to be called Ellen? Ellen? Yeah. Sounds like lemon! Shortened! But Urgh! No way! Well there's one really name I'd like to be called and no, it's not, it doesn't begin with A. I wasn't gonna say A. A a Er I won't say it . Mm. Better not do! I won't say it. Right. I know I would get a bit excited if if I was on T V. Lyndsey. Lyndsey. Especially Lyndsey. James and James. D'ya know for kids, they're the only kids that can show, that can make me go bright red! Yeah. I know what Lyndsey had wanted to do. Autograph of a favourite record. I wouldn't be meeting the wrestlers though. You might be meeting er, the wrestlers but I won't. Why, what will you be doing? Oh I'll think of something! Something cheery and nice. Well if you're on the same bill as him, well could always just ask him. Or even take her over. No, ask her over. No. Oh no because she'd tell everybody you were used to be in with prat face, prat face ! I don't think I can do that. Do that sheet properly at work. What sheet? That what she gave us to do. Oh you mean on the erm Background . background . We are making Yes. That one. I'm dreading this term when that assessor Assessor. comes in! You're not the only one! She scared me witless when she said that on Thursday about coming in Assessor. but he, no one 's expecting him and . Yeah but he does,sh you don't. You get told in advance. That's alright then. Didn't you hear her on Friday when she talked to us? When oh yeah! Yeah I remember that. What she says was is erm I think I'll try to do put some more to this letter. What she said was last time the assessor came in Mm. they thought he only wanted to see two people. He's gonna change his mind and No. Three. What, what they thought is that all the ones that He tells, he tells us tha that he's going to see two No! but when he gets It's not like that, no! What they thought is because he's assessing them and she's, they're assessing us while he's assessing them. If you know what I mean? Alright! Now, they thought it was only gonna be two because there's only two assessing people, right? Yeah. But it turned out to be three and she was put in this an awkward position and she doesn't know what to do, the poor girl who got picked! Mm. They a they'll have the other two, they got told in advance but this one, she never. And that's all that happened. But she says you do,sh that you do get told. But I'm taking no exam! The R S A One exam! Oh I know! Oh! Mind you if you say it's doing,yo er, started erm writing to somebody you really like and you've gotta get it perfect. Mm. Well that'll be that'll, that will really be hard won't it? Why? I don't know. Did she say you can use a dictionary? Yeah. Well that'll be da that's daft in your case! Why is it? Cos you ask me how to spell them! Only because I can't be bothered to look in the dictionary sometimes. Ho! No? How long have we got till July? February, March, April, May, June, July. Not long! Six months till July. Well it isn't long when you're in the old . That's five now. Well I'm not counting this month. But it is really six though int it? Cos it's the beginning of the month. Oh! Seems like a lifetime! Doesn't it? Seems it, but it's not. Half a year. I'll tell you what I'm gonna get What? that leather outfit. Mm. It is nice. No leave it. I don't you know I might get one myself. And I want outfits to have the skirts and the jackets. Yeah. Mind you, I don't like the top that goes with it. You know, what she were wearing in the book? Yeah. Don't like that. Yeah. It was gi the wrong kind of top. But the skirt and the jacket were alright. Yeah. But I don't li like leather. No. It looks awful white! Now black. Yeah, but not white. I think you look weird in whi white leather, people! What you doing? Looking for a word. What kind of word? One that I thought wrong but I think I've got it right. Replied? Mhm. Doesn't Mm, I've forgotten how to spell it now! R E P L Y . I E D . Yeah. I think. Is it? I E D ? Correct. Oh I did leave my I out. Yes! Sorry! Do you wear high heels or flat shoes? Fairly high. How big is fairly high? Two inches? Three? Three's too high for me. Or, two and a half. Well it ain't bad though. Well there's only two mistakes in it Linda. Yeah but I haven't really looked at it properly, so No. The mistakes are there in the words Well when I, when I re-do it I'll write it out as I type it and I'll let you see it. Okay. First. Can I see the other one? That you won't let me see! No! Why not! I said not! Great! So if I wrote a letter and wouldn't let you see it, how would you feel? I wouldn't feel anything cos I'm not really bothered! What if it's about you as well? Well if you write something about me you write something about me! And if I don't let you see it, I'm dead? Yeah. You're clever! Very, very clever! Well you think you are! Well, if you think, you think! Do you know that's ? Is it? Well I've not too bothered if you found everything. No. Who? As long as you got on well. Really get into rather than I wouldn't take all that much notice of it. Would you? No. It's funny, in a bit, in a way. Yeah. Yo yo it was sort of like he got he got hit on the got run over Knocked down. Oh! Didn't get run over. Run over, he actually went down though. So do you still want ? He's, he's dead! You di you didn't really expect him er the way they did it, it wasn't like well you didn't believe he was an angel did you? Really? Until the end. I didn't think he was anyway! No I didn't. Until the end. That's what got me. Mind you the title was a bit funny because it didn't Almost an Angel but if he died and he went to heaven, then he must have been an angel but came back down, he's still an angel. Yeah, but an angel on probation, don't forget. Oh the funniest part about it was when he set these people's thing . round and round without knowing. Yeah. With his sha electric shaver. Oh! Was it his electric shaver? Yeah. Mm. But with no battery. I don't know. I suppose that it was filmed where it was so that she'll be in it. Probably. She's his wife int she? Mm mm. Mind you Don Johnson and Melanie Griffi Griffith are alright, are man and wife but they're not in every film together are they? No. Mind you, Tom Cruise is. Yeah. I know he's married his wife's supposed to be in all his films int she? She can't act! I know. She cannot act! I don't think marrying the husband's gonna do much good. Mm. I'd like to hear her voice though, she's supposed to be speaking Iri Irish but I'd like to hear her voice. Australian, American,Irish accent ! Yeah. Bit of everything. Mind you, we can't act either. No. Now the best film I've ever seen him in is when he gets killed at the end! Or, even better at the beginning! The beginning's much better! Mm. We can hardly speak . No. Can't help. Mind you, his movie career is going downhill a bit. Yeah. He's Born on the Fourth of July. Started going down. Yeah. Well, anybody could see that the stupid bu er the way they've he was made up to look like a forty year old and he still looked like a twenty year old! Yeah. And nobody can imagine him like that in twenty years time. Was Born on the Fourth of July after Top Gun? I don't know. Or was it after Cocktail? I think it was after Cocktail. No, it were before! It weren't, it was after! It were after. Now Cocktail would have been a, been a bit dull if he hadn't have been in it! Yep. Still like it when she's in Babysitting . That's a good film. Mind you don't mind going i in the mornings to work but in the middle of the day No. Don't think you No, but if you go in the middle you've got a chance to wake up. Well I prefer to be in the mornings so You have to get early don't you? Well you do anyway so it don't really matter. But you've got some time to wake up haven't you? Proba yeah but well we haven't got all that long to go now. November. Mm. Never know, you might have a full time job by then. Yeah. No but We might even be in America before then. Well maybe, if only! But, next year will be fine. It'll be alright by me. And when would you like to make debut then? Oh! Next year probably. What about this year? While the fuel's still hot. Probably this year. Because I am I am beginning to think maybe they could be be erm game feature of the . I hope I'll I'll wait this year. I hope summat ha happens here. It'll be great timing! But Wrestle Mania's the biggest one here. Hulk. I bet he would. I bet he's . How about four months? Or when everything's settled. No. Better get in while it's hot. Yes, but you've gotta wait for your visas and all that lot, remember, like you said. Yeah I know. And there's another thing one tiny, tiny thing you forgot with all your plans. What's that? How are we gonna get you up in the air? Easy. Put me in an aeroplane! Yes! Alright then. Your fear of flying is over! Right? Yeah. But I am still going to sit right at the back of the aeroplane away from you! And I still remember what you did to me in the car. I won't be air sick! I can still remember what you did to me in the car. It wasn't my fault, had a big breakfast. Well if you we if you knew you were gonna be sick you could have made it a bit more a different colour than that! Urgh! Urgh! What's wrong with fiery red ? Thank heavens it didn't go on my purple top! Ah dear. I do like eggs and bacon for breakfast! Urgh! Did you have to mention meat! Ooh! There's nothing wrong with bacon. If you happen to like bacon. Well I don't. Oh I'll not talk about meat! Thank you. Talk about Sherry instead. But I mean Let's talk about meat! Come here! What for? Aren't you funny? You're very, very funny! Very, very funny ! You're very ugly! What were you saying? Or what you don't say? Dunno. I dunno, I forgot. Come on! What were you gonna say? What? Supposing we was over there in America for the beginning of July I couldn't go. Why? Oh Linda! Mind you, I suppose There's plenty of concerts to go to. Yeah, but this'll be my first concert. So! Go and see in concert. .Guns and Roses. Guns and Roses I'm sorry ! I know you can't stand Guns and Roses. Neither can I. I'd go and see a Guns and Roses concert. I wouldn't. And take some concrete with me. I wouldn't. And do them a nice pair of shoes to walk in . No. Can't be so mean to animals can you? No. Yeah but none of them none of them have had a brilliant album out. Go for Bryan Adams or Yeah. You can get to go see Bryan Adams in concert. June. I'll go over in June. Besides, I want my exams done first. Oh we'll have them before won't we? Are you quite sure about that? Nope! Well then ! Monday, third of February Martin's birthday. And you're not over there to say, hello! No. I'm sure there's plenty of others. Mm? Plenty of others. Suppose so. But this is, is a special birthday. Just cos he's reaching thirty. Ah! And he'll be twenty two in May. Nineteen seventy five. Twenty five, that sounded right,seventy five ! Well he looks seventy five! Yeah ! We'll be twenty four. And I'll be twenty one! In your dreams! Seventy one more like! Ah funny! Yeah. Sorry! You're only a baby! Get stuffed! Put it this way if I'm only baby, how come people younger than me have already got a family? I know. You've gotta put that down to it. I was your baby at twenty one. Yeah. Well stop calling me a baby! Just because I'm youngest. Not talking to you any more! Are you not? Just don't feel like it now! Don't talk to me any more then! The only time you can talk to me, you can, when we've got the tickets and we're going. Oh! And erm Eh! That's an idea! If I do my exam well before you You can tell me what to expect . No. I could change my hairstyle And yeah! You can go in as me! I could! Yeah. You could do it for me! But I'm not cheating. I think they'll know the difference though. How do you know? You're shorter than me ! Not all that short! Nice int it? Thickest and sho and short. I'll tell you who wouldn't call me short? Who? A dwarf! Ah! I know. Tom Cruise. I'm about six feet ta taller than he is! I'll let you get back with your letter. Oh! There's something else. Poor thing! Me. Softy! Who's this boxing match against anyway? Sorry? Who's this boxing match against? Who? Mam, they're both coloured! This guy here. Him in the red trunks? Mm. Oh! He's that and he's run up and down. These ref referees erm, fighters have funny names don't they? Do you know what Tracey wanted me earlier for? She was writing, she wanted me to look at it. Oh! I dunno. Wrestle Mania? No! There's a bad hinge on there! Which one's Lennox Lewis? Which one's Lennox? That one. Wearing black. That one. In the black. Oh! I thought you meant something else then. What's a slipstream? Dad? Get down! That's a slipstream ! Hey dad! What about that other on holiday jumping? Watch this! I bet that was seafood. Nothing? I don't where I've put the thing. What you looking for? My pen. Which one? My white one. You had it . There it is, on the table behind the red folder. Up to get changed. Yeah. Oh! Pocket's all wet! Mm? Pocket's all wet! and dry it. The inside's dry! You know what I mean? Well that's er dry but oh it doesn't matter. I'll put these on. Prefer my own jeans. Now what you doing? Eh? I have to push it out. Well, before you get carried away remember there's lots to do! At least I get tha get out of them. Anything, interesting been on? No. Oh! Shit! Don't start! I'm not starting ! Just laughing! You will do when we get to come Erm when we're . Yeah! Yeah! Yes. Carry on. I'm going! your mind again. What? You've changed your mind? Yes, I've changed my mind about that. Well if you er, change it But put it this way Oh yes! We could win a trip to the Grammy's in New York. We could we could erm rub shoulders with erm Amy Grant could spend the evening with her then. You you liar! He did. You liar! Honest! You liar! And then it said, and you, you might get to see Prince with his erm . I'd rather see our dog kill our Brian! Well, not kill our Brian sort of You did. You did Brian, I sa honest. But I'd rather be there . Never visit the se er, awards like that is he? He goes and he goes if you live in New York we'll take you to the erm he said then we'll we'll let you fly around the city for a while ! Yes, but then the trouble Didn't mean it like! You didn't mean it? Are you joking? No I'm not! The erm, thing about the erm The trip, but the er flight? About the flight round er New York, I was only joking. Oh I'm . He's so nice! Nice face. Yeah. Yeah. Nice face. Which way round? I don't know. It's your . Did you see anything in here? Yes, you showed me everything in there. No, Tracey, show me. I'm gonna get a proper conditioner for my hair cos it don't look! How can you make sha conditioner ? Have you really chickened out? Definitely chickened out! Look at that time my dad did that lady over there and left me on the phone and told me to stay there and I was like that. And Yeah, but what about me? Mind you, I've had more erm appeara more erm You've had more experience of erm, cameras than I have. Why? Just because I've been in front of a camcorder! I wouldn't say I've had experience in movies. That's the trouble with though she didn't stop every time to get ready for the next scene. All she did was say carry on as normal. No, he did that. Ah! I suppose if you get, when you get there everything'll be alright. But it was your idea of erm entrances that got me a bit scared. From the top more from the top. Top. Yeah, but just sa say, if you come from th the top you, you're like a a waist thing round you and if you fall off that'll catch you. So what do you think? About the entrance? Can I have a ? You could come down on the the first half and I can jump and that's like Wrestle Mania. Mm. Mm. But our feet will come down like that. Put it this way Trace I am more petrified than about this than you are. That would be a nightmare! Will it? Rod Stewart on the ooh! Notices for you, first of all those of you who are on the Committee . Any er ideas you've got you've got, please pass on to the Committee member Thursday dinner time. The only other er notice I've got for you is that tomorrow I forgot to put it on the notices tomorrow we've got a lot of visitors in school there's about er thirty five of them coming over who are likely to be joining us in the lower sixth next September er lessons with the lower sixth to find out what erm what lessons are like you know okay. Now do welcome them, do make them feel at home, especially those of you who are new to the place you will know and remember what it's like when you first come into a strange building that feels like home. Okay, so erm do them and then if they're lost on practical things like they don't know where the toilet is will you help them. and er Thank you the only is that you will have seen organised generally supported that although I think we could support it a lot better than we have. So er think about that and remember It's a different format Mr Dexter this time, we're not having maths we're having a ten minute and that will be followed by a concert . It's a completely different format, so you might might like to come to that okay. Erm this morning we have er another visitor and who actually was a teacher and works at at a very senior position er heading er very interesting projects to technical location educations and I would like to er introduce you to Mr Good morning everybody. It's about er ten years ago nearly that I er stopped being a teacher and when I was a teacher er up having to do assemblies er it was always something that I did with great reluctance and er was er pleased if I could get other people to do it er it seems rather odd then er that I've actually said yes coming to do er an assembly here today and it's perhaps a sign of mental instability on my part. Er what is necessary for me to also convey to you is that the theme that I was given today was one of forgiveness . Er the only difference between the situation now and the situation when I was a teacher is that there are a lot of Christians in this room per square metre than there would have been in a school where I taught and that applies to where I work now er because er the number of Christians who are around me in in the workplace are actually even smaller I guess and er that may be something that er you will need to recognise is an unusual feature of your school life and that er as you leave school so you're going to go into very different environments where people behave very differently. When a colleague discovered that I was coming here to do this er she saw it as laughable and she also saw it as something that I would prefer to keep quiet from my colleagues and tried a bit of moral blackmail on me as well to say I'm going to tell them about that if you don't them about this sort of thing. Er to contact when you're talking about forgiveness er well that was just the end you know that point. Life isn't always like that for me and there are times when I do have Christians around me when I am on Sundays and on Sundays I'm often involved in my own church with er preaching appointments and for me when I'm preaching the the good news that is the heart of is actually one of forgiveness. I know from my own life of faith that my thoughts, my words and my often fail to match up to the Christian ideal there is much that I do that hurts other people and there is much that I do that does not reflect Christ. The Christians good news is that guilt and shame that I have of such behaviour is actually taken away from me. I don't deserve that forgiveness, but the God who loves me who has actually died on the cross for me has actually taken all of that away and more than that has made me new, has actually raised me as a new life with him. I've been lifted out of my selfishness. Now you think that because I am I am forgiven and I preach forgiveness that I would be pretty good as up people, but that's part of my human failure and I must admit that I've given plenty of opportunity to practice at home and at work er the opportunity to forgive, but it doesn't come easily and certainly it isn't a strong feature of the non-Christian world in which I work and which you will be working soon. Forgiveness is not a strong feature of life. You've been brought up in a television age and you've been particularly been brought up in an age of card cartoons and soap operas and in all of those you would er expect to see good being oppressed that's part of the plot in every cartoon there is a plot in every soap opera, that the good the good people actually end up in difficult situations and the way that results in the cartoons and in the soap operas is usually find revenge or punishment. Let me give an example Dirty Den got his comeuppance in Eastenders erm the Road Runner always er wants er always manages to get that crafty bull er to the follies of his own tracks. It's all to do with revenge and punishment rather than with forgiveness. The only trouble with storylines like that is that life is for more complicated er we may want to see justice be done, we may want to see virtue being rewarded, we may want to see er all of those things happen, but when we make mistakes when we make mistakes, when we are not virtuous, we actually end up not being too keen, but justice should be applied straight away. We actually want mercy, we want forgiveness, we want leniency. I've got on the tape here a song which is by Manny Fryer he used to sing in Steel Ice Band er now I know that that's sort of very old hat, I'm sorry, but I sort of live in the past and er this er I I believe also that these days so that er you know I can sort of justify that but this is a song that er she has sung which er reminds us that each of us has the potential to commit the crime I'll try not to play it fast forward, let's see how we go. .consider today and it's two things. I'm inviting you to consider how far a Christian should go in forgiving and to how far a Christian organisation like this school should go, in showing forgiveness er I just want to kick you off with one or two points on each of those. That I On the first point about us and our own showing of forgiveness. Jesus himself has things to say, for example his disciples asked him how many times should I forgive somebody else. I was actually looking at you before I came in, but just come out here for a second There are two ways I can hurt you. Actually there's probably probably three ways that I can hurt you. One way I can hurt you is physically all right? And another way I can hurt you is er mentally and the third way I can hurt you is by combining the two together. All right? But I think that basically there's either two or three ways that each one of us has the ability to hurt somebody else. You've been doing it to each other all the time but if I were to hurt you or if anybody else here were to hurt you physically or mentally how many times would you forgive them? If they did it once, would you forgive them? Yes. Yeah, probably. If they did the same thing again to you? Maybe. Maybe. and the third time? Er it's very hard to keep on forgiving somebody for hurting you in the same way over and over again and in this particular example, three times and that's it. Just just all right. Don't more than three times all right thank you very much for your help there. There is another question, how many times do I forgive somebody. Should it be as many as seven times and Jesus had replied both no, no you should be able to forgive forgive them seven times, it should be seventy times in other words stop thinking about counting and just get on with the forgiving. And in the prayer that Jesus he says that we should say God please forgive us as we forgive others. So how far do you actually want God to forgive you up to three times and then no more you know it's it's that kind of er question that we're asking and that we that I feel that is something we should be thinking about that how far should a Christian go in forgiving. It's er all this is a fascinating theory or is it a question in real life. I invite you to think about just how far you should go in forgiving others in daily living, whether it's in here or outside. Another on the second point about how far a Christian organisation like this school should go in showing forgiveness. You may be familiar with those sorts of stories which say my convent life was hell with the Sisters of Mercy er that kind of story about er church organisations that absolute not to show er Christian qualities in the way that they are organised is quite true that often Christian organisations do find it hard to show forgiveness. So should a school like this one equip for the realities of unforgiveness of the world outside, or should it be much more generous in the way it shows forgiveness and can a school be organised so that it does actually reflect Christ's teaching on forgiveness. Is this the impossible. I'll be interested to hear what the teachers have to think about that and like you. Can we just end with a a short story about the job that I used to do before I did this one. When I went to the first meeting I had been appointed to the job, I went to the first meeting and there in front of me were lots of people who were managing their own schools and they were organising how to spend money that they had been allocated. all sorts of managing business and they had to work together and to hold group organisations. The person whom I was going to take over the job from said to me at the end of the meeting well what do you think of that meeting and I must admit I the answer and luckily somebody else instructed with some other business and I felt I got off the hook here but in fact that got dealt with very quickly and he came back to me and said well what did you think of the meeting and I had to say to him just one word,was the way I put it. Because everybody in that meeting was thinking about blaming other people they were actually trying to say it's not my fault that thing come in, it's not my fault that things are like this, it's somebody else's fault in a different organisation. It's not us, it's them. and then I had to work with these people and I knew that that was the kind of way that they were operating and I had to teach them by the way I worked but in fact it was okay to admit that we do make mistakes. We have to admit that each one of us could fail in what we were supposed to be doing and in fact then we could work together, that we could forgive each other and that we could support each other in our work. In my present job I still try to keep that going. We do need to be able to show forgiveness in all the things that we do but it isn't easy and Jesus devotion to is a great challenge to us as to just how far we can go. So in your groups now I appreciate it and I have asked . Erm I'd like you to be considering those two points. First how far a Christian should go in showing forgiveness and second how far a Christian organisation like this school should go in showing forgiveness. Thanks for your patience. That was very kind of you Sir James erm . Particular example, remember this is all confidential I I'm told so er er it won't go any further than this room. got anything all the time So do you think it's something to do with maturity perhaps a child, a child is this wha what do you mean by forgiving? You can forgive or punish at the same time can't you, you can punish somebody and say that is wrong and yet you forgive them, that is you don't hold it against them but you later on. they may get they get sort of get a bad name and perhaps not No. No. You also have to think of the effect it has on other people, how er if you just let people get away with it, it doesn't mean you hate them, loathe them and damn them but er you've got to make them realise that for other people, for everybody. What do you think er Graham. what the parents you know . one-to-one Yes . Martina? really. How then, how then? Christians are supposed to forgive, but what if say it's the mother of somebody who had a child that's been murdered or if somebody has been raped you cannot say that they should forgive you cos they were a Christian. There's a lot of talk about forgiving or forgetting isn't there, some people say I can forgive but I can never forget. Er you might think about some of these parents who have children murdered in the how much do you think revenge comes into it? is it? It's not that they're in rehabilitation, it's just like seeing that person is locked away in the prime of their lives revenge . Is this revenge or is this just the stopping other people from suffering really? Shut up Anyway they ask about school say, but I don't think schools have the authority really to do anything either way about er forgiveness. It's like if you fall out with a teacher on the first day of term, if that teacher You haven't that chapter for the rest of the year and say the teacher probably thinks well this child and I think forgiveness is not always An ideal forgive thine enemy always remember Well next time I'll kick you Okay number one. Yes, yes, yes. Number one then please spell the word Romeo, Romeo. Number two spell the word Juliet Number three spell the word Capulet, Capulet. Number four spell the word Montague, Montague Number five spell the word Tybaot, Tybaot Number six spell Benbolio, Benbolio Number seven Balthasar, Balthasar Number eight spell the word Escales, Escales, the Prince of Rome. Number nine spell the word Mercutio, Mercutio Number ten spell the word Paris Number eleven is worth two marks I want you to spell Friar and Lawrence. You get a mark for each. Friar and Lawrence, Friar and Lawrence. Next one, Mantua, Mantua. When Romeo went to Mantua then Verona, Verona The last one is Apothecary, Apothecary, the man who sells Romeo the poison. Apothecary. Okay, swap books then. Right, we'll go through them then erm and I would like to put your hands up tell me how to spell them. So number one Romeo, can someone spell Romeo for me please. R O M E O R O M E O that's right. Number two, Juliet. J U L I E T Good,J U L I E T Number three Capulet. C A P U L E T C A P U L E T . Four, Montague. M O N T A G U E M O N T A G U E . Next one, Tybaot T Y B A O T T Y B A O T Now Benbolio. B E N B O L I O B E N B O L I O Next one, Balthasar B A L T H A S A R Good B A L T H A S A R Er Escales, Prince, Prince of Rome. Paul. E S C A L E S E S C A L E S Mercutio M E R C U T I O Good M E R C U T I O Paris. P A R I S P A R I S Now Fryer and Lawrence two marks. Craig. F R I A R Yeah. L A W R E N C E Good F R I A R L A W R E N C E Mantua M A N T U A M A N T U A Verona. V E R O N A V E R O N A and Apothecary, Lisa. A P O T H E C A R Y Excellent. A P O T H E C A R Y fifteen and pass then back please. Right anyone less than ten? No, got eleven? Twelve? Thirteen? Well John was absent wasn't he, so he didn't have any test. Fourteen? Not bad. Fifteen? Excellent, well done, let's have a round of applause. Right, we'll do a quick quick true or false. Then we'll do some . No you don't have to write the answers, I'll just ask them you orally. So true or false. duel. True. Romeo left a suicide note? True. True. Capulet? True. True. The nurse had a daughter named Susan? True. True, good. Erm Lady to murder Romeo in exile? True. True, good. Lady Montague dies of grief at Romeo's banishment? True. True, yeah. The Prince sentences death at the end of the play? False. False, good. Er Friar Lawrence was a Dominican monk? False. False. Can anyone tell me Friar Lawrence tell me what sort of a monk he was? He wasn't Dominican was he. Franciscan. He was Franciscan, yes Erm going to church on Sunday? And Shakespeare didn't existing story. True. Yes. Very good. Erm yeah, Romeo and Juliet was not completely his idea, it came from a sort of long poem which he read about two lovers and then he turned it into a play. So he got the basic idea from a poem, but obviously the play he wrote himself. Right, now let's do a bit of hot seating hey, where one of you will sit on a chair and pretend to be one of the characters and then the others will ask a question. So someone might be Friar Lawrence, someone might be Romeo . So let's have about six different characters, before we do it I'd like you need drafting books, just to think of a few questions that you would ask the characters. So let's have the obvious two, Romeo and Juliet. Now which other four do you think were the key if you had to pick out six major ones, yeah. Friar Lawrence. Yeah, well Friar Lawrence because he's quite important to the plot. Who else do think is important? Paris. Do you think Paris is that important? Would anyone like to argue with her and say it's not that much you know an important character. Sorry I lost Cos you don't hear much of him, he's just like the person you were planning to marry him, you don't hear much of him till started. Yes, go on were you gonna answer that? He's not much of a character, he's sort of a cardboard character isn't he, he's just the other man, the man that they want to marry Juliet. He's we don't really get to know him as a person. So let's see if there's anyone a bit more meatier and we get to know their character a bit more. The nurse. Yes, we want the nurse. She's a good character in it. Who else? Five and six. Stephen? Capulet. Capulet. Can anyone think of a better one maybe? Tybaot. Yes, Tybaot would be a good one, because he's full of aggression isn't he. Well he does get killed off in that doesn't he. Mercutio. Mercutio's a good one, yes. but he's not really in it that much is he. Erm anybody else, people like Balthasar, but they're only small characters aren't they. Montague we don't see much of, Rosalind we don't see at all. She might be , but I think there's six of the better ones. So think of a question for each of them then and write then down what you might ask them. So in your drafting books please. Any volunteers on this table any of the six? It's not easy is it. Right two more minutes and then we'll start. Right let's make a start then. Right can we have Romeo on the chair please thank you. Right, this is Romeo then, Romeo Erm does anyone want to ask questions then to Romeo, what yeah. What did you feel when you heard about I was surprised and I couldn couldn't believe what happened, I was saying gutted. My heart was split in two. I felt a rush of Wh wh this outrage . Thank you, thank you Romeo, right. If you loved Rosalind so much, how . My love for Rosalind was nothing compared to Juliet when I saw her beautiful dazzling Right do you think you Would you have got together with Rosalind if you never met Juliet, would you have actually got together with Rosalind? I felt, I felt, I never even thought of I mean I I never felt nothing for Rosalind no interest or anything. Just infatuation was it? Yeah? Yeah Juliet was like a teenage queen or was it puppy love? Couldn't you see that I loved her when I s the moment I saw her, I just, I just I threw myself to her, I wanted to give her anything, even my life. Anyone got any questions about his fight with Tybaot and killing Paris and that side of any, Lisa? Do you regret between Tybaot and I just wanted to s revenge for it was supposed to be a fight for me, but I was really angry when he killed my friend so I wanted to revenge Tybaot and suddenly I killed him. Erm about Paris after you killed him why did you Juliet? Good question Yes. Well I thought was a very decent man, even if I killed him. Erm he didn't even very much but as soon as he came between me and Juliet, he just I'm lucky I killed him. I just grabbed I just granted granted his wish and I Thank you very much Romeo. Juliet. Sorry about that. Right, any questions for Juliet then? Daniel? Did you ever feel for Tybaot's death? Of course I did he was my cousin. Of course I feel for him. But I was upset Romeo banished Why did you Well when my parents were Romeo and I have left my wealth, my family and it was . Anyway . Abigail? Did you always have faith that Romeo would come back for you? Yes I did, I Paul? Well at first but it wouldn't work got to Romeo on time, so no I don't. just like Paris. Well it was terrible, just think I was already married and your parents come up to you and say oh, you've got to marry someone else. How would you feel? Erm Catherine? Why do you think Romeo Well then my parents would have to accept it wouldn't they, they would have to have face face face up to the fact that I wasn't already married. Right, erm Erm when you went to what would you have resorted to if you didn't know I would have killed myself. Okay well Matthew? Did you really think there was a nightingale Well no, I knew it was a lark, but I didn't want Romeo to go. Excellent, well done. Right Friar Lawrence then please. Well, in a way it wasn't dangerous I'd say, it was a very worked plan and it would have worked if the letter had got there, so I know it was going to work and I would not say it was dangerous. Okay Pardon? No, I wouldn't say because in a way I've saved her life. She's just that if she didn't take that potion of mine she would have killed herself anyway. So I did save her life. Okay, er What was your thought of Friar Lawrence couldn't get the letter to Romeo? Well when, when Friar Lawrence returned when he was meant to be giving the letter to Romeo, I was just devastated, I did I just didn't know what to do so all I could do was rush down to the graveyard and try and stop Romeo, by the time I was there it was too late. Right, thank you. Thanks very much. Mercutio then. Do you hate Romeo coming between you and Tybaot when you were fighting? No, I don't hate Romeo, but he was my friend and he just wanted to keep the peace. I may he may I may have died in the end but still, you know he wanted to keep the peace and wanted to be his friend. Right, Abigail? after Well Romeo was although he wanted to keep the peace, he was a chicken so I had to stick up for him cos I don I don't like people doing that to my friends. He says Romeo was a chicken. Do you agree with that? Why do you think, I mean in the fight didn't he. Well that doesn't necessarily mean he's chicken does it? It sometimes takes more courage to say no, I don't want to you than to get into the fight yeah. Right, Lisa? that Romeo was in love with Juliet so . Right yes but even if, even if Romeo took marriage, the fact doesn't always mean you're chicken does it just say let's talk about it instead. Catherine? Why do you think Romeo Well erm cos I like playing jokes and everything. I think they just thought I'm the type of person who'd go too far and you know do a joke like that, but I'm not. Okay, last question. Mercutio, why do you always act so foolish? I just want to live life to the full you know, enjoy myself, go round, you know. Right, thank you very much Mercutio. Tybaot. angry, aggressive Tybaot.. What do you get out of I like it, it gives you a lot of fun and pleasure. It's like you like do ballet dancing, I do fighting. Ballet dancing Right erm, Eva? Why should you Pardon? Why do you Why did you go out of the way to kill Romeo? Cos I felt like it. Yeah, he killed Romeo because he was in the opposite house, he was an enemy Mm wasn't he Montague really. Yeah. Mark? Why when Mercutio assaulted you did you try to fight the enemy instead of Mercutio? Cos I Why? Cos I do, gets on my nerves. Can you remember when there was a bit of scuffle between Tybaot and Romeo earlier on? Once, once. Well yeah and because he talked to the He didn't like the way Romeo gate crashed the Yeah I know. When Romeo said something to you, could you forgive Romeo? I don't think so, cos I've never liked him ever, even if he did get married to Juliet. Okay, thank you very much Tybaot. The last one the nurse please. Right, go on. Why weren't erm everyone and the father and mother were calling Juliet, Juliet instead of when Juliet's did you just sort of Romeo? Yes. Why? Well because I thought Paris was better for her, cos Romeo's just a going killing people and especially her cousin. I know how much her cousin means to her. Thank you. Jane? At the beginning of the play when you was dead set on erm getting married and was sort of arranging it, why, why su such a change of heart. Well cos of what Romeo did and anyway I didn't know about how much Paris wants to marry her. What means Well what would you expect when, when one of your loved ones died, you'd be very hurt and upset. Romeo was I mean Juliet was like a child to me. Juliet would still be alive. Could you repeat that please. Would you ever, would you ever Juliet alive? No, she was like a child to me. Okay, thank you and Catherine? Weren't you scared that you were being Well yes I would be. Last question What do you think of Romeo taking Juliet away from you? Well happiness then what I can give her. Okay, thank you very much. Some excellent questions raised there. Very good good way. Now I was looking through some brochures about erm productions of Romeo and Juliet, I haven't found one yet that's on before May. I want to try and get one before May before the exam, but there is a superb production on i the summer, it's on June and July and it's at an open-air theatre erm in Lincolnshire and what people do is they go and take a picnic and you sort of take your rug and sit there and cos it it'll be hot in the summer it would be really nice and you watch it outdoors and it's in this big stately home which is in it's own grounds and there's gift shops and restaurants and bars and obviously won't go in the bars but you know there's lo it's beautiful and like a big stately home you can wander round the gardens for a bit and then go and watch the performance and if it rains then there's a canopy you can pull the canopy over like at Wimbledon and you know it's a really nice day. Now I said Mr Nichol I'd to take you to that erm but the only thing is it's after the so I don't know how you feel if you'd if you would rather see a performance before the exam, or you would rather see that one after the exam, or two. The thing is I mean if there's only a handful of you want to go, we can maybe get the mini bus and I could just take ten of you. If you didn't all want to go, you know you don't have to go, but then I could just take maybe ten or fifteen of you, but how many will be interested in going to the one in the summer in this lovely out-door theatre? Right, hands down. How many would want to go to one before May before the exam? Right, and how many would want to go to both? Oh excellent, right. Okay. So I'll try and get something sorted before May, if not then we'll go to the one in July, it'll be red it should be red hot in July and it's a really nice day and if we make a day of it, then we can take a picnic and you know it's very so pleasant. We went with the sixth formers las last summer we went to see The Tempest and it's such a beautiful place you know, it's you're outdoors but it's quite weird the way they do it, because you're like in a canopy but the actual stage it outdoors, so you're covered but you get a bit cold and you need to take woollies and things, it can get a bit cold out there, but it should be nice in the summer. So we'll definitely get, get something. But it wouldn't be cheap the tickets, it's quite an expensive place to go to, but it would be well worth it, as it would be a good production. Okay. Examination paper. Our councils are drawn from society on the bring that into modern day life erm our councils are drawn from all sections of society the Sanhedrin purely represent representatives of the Jewish Community their elders, their leaders, their priests, their religious lay people, all were represented on this highest authority this council. What kind of people what you expect to see on the local council in Nottingham? er well respected people councils. Yeah, but what kind of people, what kind of people give their give me some of the different types of people Well. What, pardon? Wealthy people. Wealthy people. Wealthy? Do you reckon? Do you reckon? Middle aged people. Middle aged people. Yes. People from different levels of society. Men. Do you mean what do you mean by different levels of society oh men oh right, sorry I was a bit slow on that one, just, just It, it tends to be men, yeah, it's more men No I don't think so. let's get out of this conversation. What were you saying Matthew? Yeah, give me some examples. a communal Right. A manager. Yeah. And a shop floor worker. A shop floor worker good, yeah. Skilled, semi-skilled, non-skilled workers see the different levels of of livelihood that you see to be measured on sort of thing and er therefore you've gotta good way of representing this society as a whole haven't you. The decisions that have to be made generally speaking. Local councils do help to direct communities and that's what the Sanhedrin were hoping that they could do too, they advised their communities. There are also there for very serious reasons too, sorry were you going to say something Jacqueline? Sorry I couldn't quite get that. shop floor. Not many people from the shop floor. Well, I mean you may be right I can't be I'm not I'm not absolutely certain myself but er it would be nice to think that we were represented at a local authority level, yeah, by different cross-sections of our community. You can't all be company directors, some of us are gonna have to be shop floor workers aren't we. People making decisions for you at that level, but the point I'm trying to make is our society's much more complicated and much more sophisticated now in the way that arrangements are made, the decision making for the community. You do have you have local government and you have different political parties represented within that local government structure as well. We've also got you know that kind of a your national government what not that higher level. Er you've got people who were representing the community that's as far as law and order is concerned er making decisions. Our society's very complex in that that erm in that sense, the effect that you feel is break the law erm you know if you want certain services, we're supposed to have a structure in our society which is which is catered for, which caters for all eventualities. Now it's a system you go through if you break the law, you know we have an education system which is organised for us by our local community who builds the school, who runs the school, who's on the governors of those schools. The structures are there for the individual to respond to the community and in a helpful way sometimes. Sometimes if you've made a mistake and the parallel I'm drawing is with the Jewish community in Jesus time. He would he'd been identified as a character that was at least stirring up trouble, but gradually this filtered through to the authorities. So what they did was they sent people out to listen to him, you've got evidence of that as early on as Chapter One and Chapter Two. Early suggested people was just checking him out, finding out what's going on they'd send the feelers out. Erm and when it was established that there was something serious here to to question, they went and arrested him. The authorities arrested him so he got that kind of and erm and then they started to ask him questions. Now the authority of the community was carried by the Sanhedrin they brought him to what is what they accepted as a trial erm they'd assessed that something was going against their structures, and as I've already said religious life was the most important thing he'd broken it seems a religious law and the council the court the gathering together of the seventy members of the Sanhedrin were going to in a serious sort of way check this out, check this accusation out. right so it was kind of it was a religious accusation. What was the accusation Andrew? What were the religious leaders worried about? That they gathered together their Sanhedrin, their court and they brought him to it. Jesus was gonna was gonna take take over their power. I think that's an implication of what they were accusing him of, but were they bringing him to trial for. You come to trial and you've been accused of something, what were they accusing him of? Jesus was claiming to be the Messiah. Claiming to be the Messiah. Anything else they accused him of, that's the key point, that was the key issue. Blasphemy. Blasphemy, claiming to be God. The same sort of thing isn't it, you know this is this is the technical description for what it was. Yes? tear down the temple Tearing down the temple and re-building it in three days. Extraordinary claims that were were being made by Jesus. So he was brought to trial so they could test out this, this whole situation, get to the bottom of it and the, the high priest Kiathas was the central figure in organising the troops. Yes? What is she for? Because er I was I was trying I was told yesterday that I didn't do Who told you that? Mr sir Right, would you do your religious studies er work in this lesson because I know nothing about that and er neither does Mrs Chester, so I will check that with Mr later. I'm sure that he has not said to you that you can do work other than your religious studies at the moment, so that's what you should be doing but you say he has and we will check it later. Thank you. Could we just read this little passage then and er can we share the reading. I'll start it off and then if you don't mind. Let me just point out to you that last year if you remember they asked you to describe the the passage where Jesus is crucified, that's 1521 to 31 and I guess they won't do that again this year, but they're likely to pick on a significant passage, significant section then you're asked to relate it relate the passage at the end of Mark's Gospel where Jesus is crucified. Well it could be the Jewish trial, it could be the Roman trial. You need to be very familiar with the text, you can't learn it word-for-word for goodness sake, but you certainly are able to identify all the key issues and key aspects of it and that's what you're looking out for, so you could re-tell the story again, you can re-tell the story again yourself accurately, identifying all the key points. I'll start and then someone else can pick up. I'll read the first two verses. Right then Jesus was taken to the High Priest's house where all the chief priests, the Elders and the Teachers of the Law were gathering. Peter followed from a distance and went into the Court Guard of the High Priest's house. There he sat down with the guards keeping himself warm by the fire. Read on for me David will you David The Chief Priest and the whole council tried to find some evidence against Jesus in order to put him to death. They could not find any. Many witnesses told lies against Jesus against Jesus not even they however could make their stories agree. Thank you. Just hold it there. There are some very important bits that we need to be making a a note of there, and many witnesses told lies against Jesus, but their stories didn't agree, they tried to find some evidence against him in order to put him to death Mark tells us, but they couldn't find any. Right, the story's building up to a sort of crescendo erm the the Sanhedrin was saying he heard him say I will tear down this temple which men have made and after three days I will build one that is not made by men with our hindsight, with our knowledge of what went on. We're living after the event aren't we. We know what he was saying there, the three days gives it away the death on the Friday and the Resurrection on the Sunday, right. We know what he's talking about. Put yourself in the in the shoes of the Sanhedrin, they didn't know what he was talking about, they're probably talking literally. You know and if you'd seen the size of the temple there were thinking well, come on, and the trouble that they'd gone through over their history to establish er a capital city with a temple as the main feature, they were not happy about him saying that. Right. But what Jesus was referring to was not the material kingdom, but the spiritual kingdom. Can you imagine taking all those thousands of years trying to get your people together and then somebody saying well I'm gonna destroy your capital city and rebuild it. Read on for us Paul please. and questioned Jesus as to the accusation . Jesus kept quiet and would not say a word and again the High Priest questioned him. Are you the Messiah the Son of the Blessed God? Just hold it there Paul. Quite important isn't it. So the High Priest brings it all together and says what's your answer. You're here, you're on trial, you can see him being accused of all sorts of things, defend yourself, job your opportunity to clarify in front of us, we represent the people. Tell us, what is this all about? You know simple language, they wanted to know where he was coming from, but Jesus it says would not say a word in answer to any of those accusations, but then the High Priest says are you the Messiah, the Son of the Blessed God. Read on for us Lena sixty two. Hold it there Lena. What is your decision because these couple of verses erm are essential to our understanding of what happens next. We need to understand the position of the Sanhedrin, Jesus is really representing great changes in their tradition great a great revolution really and we know that what he was doing was was sort of getting Christianity to grow out of Judaism, but it meant that Judaism had to move to one side. Jesus was saying it's a fulfilment of all the Old Testament prophecy that referred to becoming a Messiah. He even uses words which come from the Old Testament Book of Daniel and they recognised that and here they've got this pathetic looking individual in front of them threatening to destroy the temple, threatening to this, that and the other and here you've got this power Sanhedrin who can't recognise him really as the Messiah and yet there's a ring of truth about some of things that he's talking about. The one in particular I'm referring to you will see we'd all see the Son of Man,they they'd recognised that reference to himself Son of Man, they'd recognised that because that comes out of the Old Testament Book of Daniel doesn't it, the Son of Man seated on the right hand of the Almighty coming with the clouds of heaven. It's a sort of reference to the way the Messiah will come and rescue and save God's people. So there's a ring of truth in what Jesus is saying here. I would guess that some of the Sanhedrin were confused. Some of them would be outraged We certainly know that one of them was convinced by Jesus, Joseph of Arimathea was a member of the Sanhedrin and you know that, that later on we're told of Joseph of Arimathea, but what did he do Michael do you know, does anybody know what Joseph of Arimathea did? Yes? He offered his so there you have some insight into the members of the Sanhedrin, Joseph of Arimathea northern areas of er Judaea, Arimathea is and don't forget worried, worried Jerusalem now, this, this group together Yes Matthew. What did he do? He er what I was just gonna say, he offered his tomb, his burying place to Jesus after he'd died, it's not the action of a man who totally rejected Jesus claims to be the Messiah. So he tells you that there was some, some sympathy towards Jesus through this on the Sanhedrin. Just read on for us James please when you've finished yawning. It's a bit hot there in the sun isn't it. Sending you to sleep is it? Mm. On you go James, good lad. some of them, some of them began to spit on Jesus and they blind folded him . Thank you very much. Now I just want to explain something to you that you can that you can put down in your notes in any way that you like, that you can understand best yourself. You were not there, I was not there Saint Mark or the person who wrote this Gospel was not there Someone has recorded this for us looking back on it. We know that Saint Mark we know that the Gospel writer recorded all this information about thirty years after the death of Jesus. This had happened thirty years previously. We know that he'd tried to gather all his sources of information together as best he possibly could and he wrote his Gospel very quickly. It's a it's a brief and abrupt account of the events of Jesus life. But he wasn't there he was gathering information together about the incident. His number one source of information is Peter Mark the Gospel writer has an intention, he has a purpose within this Gospel. He has a duty, his Christian duty that he's adopted to communicate this so that other Christians can understand what was happening to Jesus. and there's so much of the kind of change in the last few chapters leading up to this which suddenly got Jesus being spat at Saint Mark is telling us that Jesus has now been condemned. Look at the change. Go back a few chapters, visit Jesus in Kaburdian and Galilee. Go and see the reaction of the people who witnessed him cure the blind man Blind Bartiamaus or Bethsiedum Go and check out what the woman who with a haemorrhage had to say about him. Here we've got him being spat at and condemned to death. Now Saint Marcus had to put all that lot together to make it look right and make it make sense, with hindsight, bringing all the important pieces together. What he's saying to us here is that that there is a reason that Jesus had been condemned and that those who had the authority to do so had carried out their work. They've done it swiftly as possibly, too quick to be just. He was taken out of the garden at put on trial, all the others were gathered together swiftly Normally a Jewish trial would take much longer than this. I think it looks like he wanted to get the thing over and done with before the Sabbath. But Mark has to put all the package together. and it's extraordinary to notice to make a note of the fact that from being a defender of the people, a popular character, Jesus now is hitting rock bottom. From now on you'll see him taking a part. He'll be ridiculed, he'll be mocked, he'll be scourged, you know something reserved for the people who were really being taught a lesson. You're being totally stripped of all your honour your credibility can you see that contrast that Mark is introducing us to. Jesus is absolutely hitting the floor this, rock bottom. He's heading towards death, he's in the clutches of the authorities and probably the common people taking a few steps back. Even his closest friends are going whoa, hold on, can't take the Sanhedrin on, hold on, look at the temple, look at the temple guards, look at this it's too much for me. Can't Jesus . We've seen him do it before, but he doesn't, doesn't say a word. Probably that knocked Peter back a little bit, we'll read on a little bit later but Peter fully abandons Jesus let's face it. He's not the guy he said he was. You know Jesus has been the leader who'd been taken away from his group, very clever tactical ploy. Jesus had come to Jerusalem, the capital of Judaism to take on the religious authorities and at this point in time in this Gospel it looks like he's lost, gonna be dead in a couple of days. It looks like he's lost and Mark paints a very clear picture of the suffering, the the insults the mockery. He can't, he can't be treated much, much worse, he's not even guilty of anything except good. He does this deliberately to show that you too as a Christian will hit the floor. People will mock you, they'll, they'll hit you, they'll slap you, they'll accuse you of things that you you're not guilty of they may even kill you. And he's setting the scene for the Resurrection he's setting the setting the scene for his triumph out of despair. A lot of things are yet to happen from where we've just left off the story. Hello Mr I've just sent them back, they said they were coming looking for their guitar lessons. Whether that's true or not I've got to follow up there's no one here for them. I've sent them back to both in their trainers. They're er approaching your room now. Right, I've spoken to both of them first thing this morning about their trainers. I'll keep an eye out for them and have a word with them. Thanks Okay, hopefully you've had a chance to make, to make notes on that. I was I was looking at the syllabus last night and I was working out how much we've got to do yet and where we are an and I really do feel confident that no matter where you are in your course work situation, that if w if we planned the thing right and we sort it out between now and the summer,tha that we could well get a good few Grade A's in here and obviously work it well. I think to the top end, then those of you who were struggling around with D syndrome at moment, you know let's get you pushed in there. Erm cos it's possible. Erm here they are now. Children, would you like to wave at them. Erm I have a sneaking suspicion that, that the area in they focus on and it it's the obvious was to think about it is Resurrection. That's just the kind of gut feeling that I have. If you wanna know anything about Christianity Yes come in gentlemen. no blazer. No maths lesson unless you get up there pretty quick now. You, why haven't you got your change shoes on? Guiseppe, do see my problem? Everybody's doing it now. Bring your note in the morning about this and wear your shoes tomorrow morning. Erm it's pretty obvious really you wanna know anything about Christianity, you don't know it, let's put it this way, you don't know anything about Christianity unless you know something about Resurrection. Okay, make sure you spell it right. But that that's a little thought that I have, a gut feeling you know an instinct erm that might be an area that could be chosen concentrated on this year. Erm we'll look at that again, that's enough on that. Any comments please any thoughts on anything anybody wants to say at this point? No? Right, that's the Jewish trial. The thing to remember is your last little note is that it seems to be that they're accusing him of blasphemy as it was said. They were accusing him of claiming to be God. Right, they're accusing him to be claiming to be God and they actually say they actually say their decision is that he's guilty and should be put to death, they've condemned him to death. That's as far as their authority goes. Can't kill him themselves. Why can't they kill him themselves Matthew? Because? Why haven't they got the authority. Pardon? Why didn't the Romans have to do it? government. Absolutely right. You allow a certain amount of control to a group of people whose country you're occupying. The Romans were occupying the Jews country. They wanted to keep them happy, they let them carry on with their religion, it didn't interest them but when it comes down to serious things like killing erm political agitators, the Romans wanted to deal with that themselves. You can you understand that? Right we're talking about the way you control the country, and the way you control the people. The Romans were very good at that, ultimately they just they were just a powerful military force, but they were also very clever about the way they they kept their influence in various countries. What I want you to look for in the next little passage that we look at is the way that the Sanhedrin present their case to Pontius Pilate. What did they accuse him of in front of Pontius Pilate, that's what we're looking for in the Roman trial next to come. Is it a religious accusation or is it a political accusation. We'll leave it at that and we'll pick it up again next time because we've done enough on that. Could you get out th the stuff be careful of the recording equipment there but er. What stuff? Just under that, under there. Chapter eleven question please. Just different voices, so you know if you Hello Mum Not all odd stuff. Hello, Mum. Erm it's for it 's it's in order that, that in the nineties we have a historical record, I think I'm I think I'm saying this right, there is a historical record of the kind of words that are being introduced into the into our language into our vocabulary like for example i.e. Like what ya, you old cockney sparrow. Yes, well that only, only from the point of view that they're being used so often, that they're also almost becoming well can you think of any words that, that are that are that have been introduced recently into our vocabulary that have that have that have been acceptable in common language? You know that you wouldn't expect to see there normally, I mean the one I'm always on about is when everybody says you know that, that the thing is the thing is bad you know and when you say it's that, it's actually good. Wicked confusing isn't it. Perhaps they're changing the language round back to front. Right, so when you're You know you've sensitive to popular culture haven't you to understand that. You know without thinking about it . Whe when they're actually describing something like homework oh that's cool, they don't really mean it as good, or do they? Right, the Chapter questions. Use sellotape. Right you've done the answers to question one Dominic, excellent, well done, you're one of the best students in the class . Well you see you don't even know what chapter, I mean you know re rewind that recording, I'm sure it'll there'll be evidence on that on how many times I said Chapter eleven, question . Notts County Football Club are by far the greatest team the world has ever seen. It's not all their bedrooms as well. Lena put your clothes back on. You know like for example if I said come on chaps thank you, erm what you're actually doing then is confessing to me that you haven't finish off Chapter ten questions. That's enough of that, hang on. Let me ask these questions then we'll like agree. We'll take it from here, I think I'd like to carry on Chapter eleven. The reason for that is of course that this is significant to the syllabus that we're doing, you know Chapter eleven is the beginning of Jesus coming into Jerusalem in his final final weeks. You're on Chapter eleven you see she's carrying on, getting on with it. Perhaps if you perhaps if you hang on a minute, erm well Jacqueline want wants me to answer one question for her. me to answer one question by the time I answer those three questions, where is everybody gonna be up to. Right, we'll begin we'll begin on Chapter eleven all right there's a compromise, the last question on Chapter ten. Sir We'll come back to that, we'll come back to that. two meanings. Yeah. Yes, I suppose so . Climax, a kind of climax of his mission, yeah. Yeah. Christians have hindsight, you're looking at it, you're looking at it two thousand years later and you can see him riding into Jerusalem on a donkey, knowing that he's going to a victory . Describe the events Describe the events. Right, okay, erm the last question Chapter ten, the Leader. This healing miracle restored a blind man's sight. Jesus had come to restore mankind's sight symbolism. Erm as with many, many parts of the Gospel you're expected you're expected to be able to look more deeply than on the surface. Jesus had so much to communicate to people in such a small amount of time as we've realised yes you can look upon the miracle of the cure of the blind man's sight. I think this, this one refers to Blind doesn't it. Yes. Well Blind that particular incident is actually packed with information. Mark tells us so much about who Jesus is and what he's come for just by showing us that one miracle but what I'm suggesting to you here is that you can look for greater meaning in it, further symbolism. Bartiamaus insisted he wanted his sight back. No Often when we ask someone do you understand, can you see what I mean, okay. That kind of symbolism is often used isn't it. You know our eyes are very important to us,what he says,get a bit frustrated with you, you've not understood what they're tr trying to explain, they say come on, open your eyes will you, it's there, it's in front of you. All right? You're just on the approaches to Jerusalem, you're just coming in to Jerusalem right? I think this happened in when did it happen this in between and Jericho, somewhere around that region, where was it Jericho. Jericho. He's on his way to Jerusalem where people will refuse to see they will refuse to see what Jesus means. Their eyes are open and yet they won't see. if you look at the cure of erm th the Blind Man of Bethsiedum which happened a little earlier, a similar thing happens when Jesus cures his sight, he can't see at first and Jesus has to do some more work on him with spit, spittle and er you know the , but there's something behind that it's not just a er a nature miracle, sorry a healing miracle overcoming physical ailments, that's spectacular in itself but the can take something else on board here without the attitude of people and their willingness to accept who Jesus was and what his details of participant Bartiamaus had been given the vision he'd been given was more than just his eyesight. Okay? Because of his experience, he'd been taken further into God's Kingdom, he'd been given that vision into God's Kingdom, now that's more than just been given your eyesight, cos there's a lot of people will see, who have their eyesight intact, but refuse to have the vision that was necessary to accept Jesus, new kingdom. Yes Jacqueline? Sorry, again? The one where that's the Bethsiedum one isn't it? That's the Bethsiedum one yeah. That's not in Chapter ten? No it's not, I did say it's somewhere earlier on in the Gospel, but you weren't listening to me. the teacher or they maybe look stupid on the recording machine, that's all right. Right, Chapter Eleven then. Ten minutes later. I wanted to point this out at this point, you know if we just studied that particular area in the Gospel the Jewish trial. We've gone back er a few days now, Jesus is actually arriving in Jerusalem and the, the heading that's given in in the Good News Gospel here is the answer to that question isn't it Matthew? What is that answer Matthew? Erm. A sign of a good teacher that you know ask a student a question, point out to him that he's not been paying attention. I do my You know who you were talking to. Anyway, the answer to question one of Chapter Eleven is contained in the title of that Chapter. What is it Matthew? sir. So, how is the beginning of this Chapter described. It's described as a triumph, it's described as a victory. We have Jesus arriving having won something. It's interesting to wonder what he's won. Having read what you've just done. Right what does this suggest about his arrival? Thank you. It suggests that he was extremely popular with the people if you read the passage. As they approached Jerusalem near the towns of and they came to the of olives, Jesus have decided ahead. These instructions go to the village there ahead of you, as soon you get there you'll find a colt tied up that's never been ridden, right, a donkey. Untie it, bring it here and if someone asks you why you're doing that, tell them that the master needs it and we'll send it back at once. So they went found a found a colt in the street, tied it to the door of the houses, there was tying it, some of the by-standers asked them what are you doing, untying that colt. They answered just as Jesus had told them and the men let them go. They brought the colt to Jesus the animals and Jesus got on. Many people spread their on the road, while others put branches in the fields and spread them on the road. The people who were in front and those who followed behind began to shout Praise God, God bless him,name of the Lord, God bless the coming Kingdom of King David our Father, Praise God. These are the affirmations that were being made as Jesus trotted in Jerusalem with this little donkey, his followers gathered all around him looking from the heights of the walls of Jerusalem, there must have been one or two curious, astonished, worried eyes, the Sanhedrin, the Chief Elders, She has but I've not had time to er assess her yet. I'm going to inform erm a friend of mine who might be able to do that for us. on the er It certainly will cost them an awful lot of money, hundreds. Religious Studies would be very interested to hear all this No comments. Erm Where was I? . there; s a lot of significance with . That's right,th the Jews thank you James, you were listening. You know a fervent Jew would always want to get to the centre of their faith, visit there. In fact it was, it was it was required of them to get to Jerusalem at the time of the Passover for example. Erm it's important that you understand that Jerusalem was very close to the hearts of every Jew. This was where Jesus was going, because he knew that to take to take something over and let's face it Jesus was looking to take over take something over to fulfil something and he was hoping to fulfil Judaism to take it over, to fulfil it, he had to go to where it mattered. If you wanna take this country over, go to the Houses of Parliament. Thank you, thank you very much. Steady boys, steady on. Find your way out. Er well you one or two wise guys who have dropped in one or two interesting comments, but you know they'll just cut those out. Come in, come in, come in. nice to see you. Well what can we do for you today? Oh, I've a infection in my gum Dr . In your gum? Up here. Yeah. tablets and noticed that, I don't know,. Let's have a look and see what they've done to you. Aye, the Sofradex not doing very much for that is it? No, I've never taken them, I've just, I stopped taking them. Aye, I don't think they're doing very much, do you. You see I've had it here, I take it quite often, I take Right. sores, Dr gave me these to clear them, and it does clear them up. Eventually. Eventually, Right . but I was getting bacteria and germ, you know, Mhm. and I'd rather so I so I put a description in, asked for a description yesterday, Right. cos that would give the rest of my Right. my things. So she said it wouldn't be done till tomorrow morning, but I need something, Right. And I've been up till, I've been paining me all night Doctor , Aye. I'm just wondering if it's my teeth or that it's just my blood that's doing it . I think I think it might be s the the teeth, it'd be worth getting the er dentist to have a wee look at your your plate, Mhm. because there might be a wee rough It seems to be catching up here. Aye, might be a wee rough bit in It was all rubbing, and really painful all night Dr . And will I take these Sofradex? Yes, yes, keep on with those just now. And I was going to take them, I was going to take them, and I said, Oh I'd better, I'd better see Dr first . Aye, get Daktarin erm gel and put that on Mhm. three times a day between meals. Do I just spread it on my plate, you know? Aye, just a wee drop on your A wee drop, on on your finger and just cotton bud it and rub it ? and and rub it round top of your plate, just put straight from Awfully painful. Oh aye because you're right into the flesh. It is. Right into the flesh. Do I take these as they're prescribed here Doctor ? Yes, aye, two fou one or two four times a day. Yes, one four times a day. Fine, yeah, aye . Just take, just take, I was gonna take them, I says,I couldn't stand the pain any longer, Yeah. it really was, put me off food and everything Dr . Aye, oh yes, when you can't, when you can't eat it's not much fun. Here we are now. And how's, how's young Dr doing, is he? Dr , is he doing alright ? haven't seen him, it's Dr I think that's attended me the last time. Aye. I haven't seen him, I think I've doc seen Dr once. It was a wee, it's it was last year when you saw him I think, Dr No. , was it not? No because I got my gallbladder out in January. Aye. It's it was before So that that you'd seen him. Aye. Seen that much That looks like Dr . Ah I seen . That's right. Aye, it was November, November. the last time you saw Dr Oh it was Aye, well I seen him, He came up to see me when I was in , Mhm. when I was in getting my gall bladder removed. It's turned you into a human being yet? Oh No. Will I just pout the gel on or Yes. can I? Just just put the gel, don't don't wash your mouth out with anything. No, I was using some, I was washing with a mouthwash in the morning. No, Oraldene. no. No? No. Leave it, leave it alone, Leave it? leave it alone. Use your Yes, aye, just use your gel and your your er Sofradex tablets, yeah sofradex tablets, just take what's in the just take what's . I seen Dr , Monday, he was a clinic for before I went beck, a week on Friday for injections. Again? Again. Absolutely. In the bin. That's the best place for it. took him two reactions, Aha. to get platelet, to get platelets, two reactions . I must have screamed. Away and yourself. Right Thanks very much Doctor, thank you. Bye Mrs , cheerio now. do you think it'd be a good idea if you started doing some revising I went oh yeah I'll have a think about it and I sort of like walked out the door and went yeah I've thought about it . going to me all my comments on my thing were really good. Mine weren't bad. Apart from given you a B yeah on why it's just hanging in, must try a lot lot harder, gives me a B and then erm someone gave me a C someone gave me a C and said oh yeah gave me a C yeah and said coasting. gave me a C yeah and said improved greatly from the last showed much better in his work and really trying hard and gave me a C. yeah, I got f I got, my total marks I could've got was fifty eight and I got fifty four and she gave me a C and she said must improve your marks. And he goes Bloody hell. he goes nah there must be something wrong with this she go he goes I can't, I don't think we can complain about that can we? He's good about that. He goes, he goes he goes, he goes He doesn't just look at the mark. I think we'll scrap cos you missed a week I went She averaged practically all of my marks for some unknown reason. What do you mean? The total amount of marks possible was two hundred and five and I got a hundred and nineteen or something I don't know and , and goes yes I had to average five of his marks because he was absent. Take averages of the classes. Yeah but how comes for five? I didn't miss five pieces of work, that's impossible. Don't complain. No I just, I just couldn't work out how he averaged five marks. I only missed two preps. That is strange. In fact I only missed one prep. Then he goes to me Alistair ex extra curricula and he go erm hockey, cross and rugby and he goes mm how about a bit of culture? I go er what do you mean? He goes pottery? He said that Julian And I go sorry, and he goes makes a jolly good Christmas gift and I go I can't do it and he goes how about music he said erm how about music, are you musically minded? And I go and he goes no I didn't think so. You've done it! Fucking hell mate. What you on about? Oh he goes to me, he goes to me Jimmy what, he goes, cos I, you know all that extra curricula bit yeah? Yeah. I put going down to the English Centre and using the computer quiet period. Bollocks. and he goes what are you using the quiet, what are you using the erm computers for in your quiet periods? I said well I'm not very good on computers and I've got loads of coursework so I thought if I go down there and type out different pieces of work it would get me familiarized with them Oh you're such a bullshitter . and he, and he goes, he goes oh that's a very good idea, he goes don't make it I haven't got got a and he goes no neither have I Yeah it's yours. he goes and he goes It's been recording since you lot have been talking. I don't mind. I've got nothing to hide. I don't care either. Can you turn Down? Down or up? Down. I'm not bothered either erm and he goes he goes, he goes I haven't got the best handwriting and by the looks of things neither has Mr it's completely changed from the first three weekly you had. He goes you haven't got a new R S teacher have you ? I went nah. Er nah! Nah! And he goes to me, he goes to me so have you thought about my, my suggestion of pottery, I went yeah, and I threw it out the window. Cos it was actually quite safe the way you walked in here. It's, it's a really safe bloke actually. You walked in and you goes Melissa and Rupert goes ooh !and I could see Rupert and then you go, I go Rupert I go She scares me that woman. Spanish and he goes, he knew what I was talking about so all of a sudden he goes ah so tell me a bit about this erm this Melissa so I said You're kidding! so I said erm Oh you git! so I said to him erm You can't discuss my l bloody life So I said erm she's Spanish and he goes ah! Spanish are nice w nice girls Oh you git! so he goes oh if she's at and he goes ah right, right Oh you're such a so I had to make conversation then I said erm so how are the old Colts B doing and he goes er had a bit of a junior You made conversation with him! junior Colts, sorry junior Colts, and he said erm ah had a bit of a roll at the beginning and then towards the end now we've sort of lost loads in a row so I said, he said alright I said about the same with us then I was, so I said it's cold and he said mm yes it is rather. What did he say? He goes to me, he goes to me he goes, I don't actually he goes if there's one good thing about your three weekly Jimmy there's never any Ds on it but there's never ever blooming As either why not ? So I goes, I went Oh my God! well sir tt I think that er I don't think many teachers like marking my work and he goes oh why's that? I said cos it's not very good and he starts going yes well I think we'd better try and get a few As on there hadn't we and I got good end of term report. He goes Alistair, what is happening? The two main subjects that are really gonna matter, maths and English, one says you can't stop mucking around Is that English? and you ask daft stupid questions Is er yeah, and then he goes he gave me poor result. then maths and he goes but maths he says you're half asleep all the time, I mean you're not doing any work at all. So I said well sir I find maths really boring and I walk into this classroom and it's all painted the same with this blackboard in front and I just find it boring, he goes yes guess who he was taught by at rugby? Your favourite maths teacher he was taught by . Serious? Bloody hell. Is he any good at maths? No I would say he's crap. I thought he might be. Oh shut up! I sat, I'm, I'm sa I'm si I'm sitting there yeah and he goes he goes well most expensive oi oi I'm sitting there yeah and he and he, I've got all these marks yeah and he goes oh well that's roughly about seventy percent oh that's about sixty that's about fifty and he goes yes well there's, there's nothing to worry about, there's no great alarm bells ringing yet. He said there were warning bells for me. And he said, he said, he said it's n he said, he goes to me, he looks at it for about five minutes and goes it'll do, it'll do. So I went thanks sir and he goes, he goes Price per ton. he goes who else is in your neck of the woods, I went It's what he said to me. I was gonna say Alistair but then I thought he's in the loo so I can't. Anyway so he goes is James there and I went yeah and he goes mm, so I went I think so, I'd better go and get him hadn't I But I walk in yeah and he goes he goes hold on, now you're Alistair, and I go yeah, and he goes I think I've just given your three weekly to Jimmy. And he go I go no I don't think so. And he goes well James came and said, he goes ah so Jimmy found him and he and James goes ooh no Alistair found me. Melissa phoned in prep. No. Prep, again! In prep. I knew that cos Lewis picked it up. Lewis picked it up? Lewis, yeah. Did Lewis speak to you? Lou he told me. He said I've got a bit of news for you No he came over to the study, he came over to the study and he said er he comes in and he goes He told me. Melissa Rupert goes ooh shit! Oh you're in here . Yeah. Oh it was really funny Oh sorry aren't I allowed to be Garfield. Yeah yeah yeah Oh it's not Captain Pugwash any more Al. What is it? Garfield. He's a little fat sweet thing in he? Oh sh Have you seen his slippers? He's got good slippers. No I'm talking about They've got massive eyes on the front of them like out here. can't feel anything anyway you tit. What's wrong with it. It's dead innit?and I can't feel it. It's dead innit Jimmy we're being recorded on a linguistics tape. Are we? Yeah. This looks really good this little thing. It's called be free. Hello in there ah ah ah oh Jim oh oh oh There's widespread bullying. Ah ah ah ah ah! Oh shut up. tickle ah He doesn't tickle that side . That sounds really bad on the tape when you beat him up. Ah ah ah ah! I wasn't beating him up I was tickling him. No it doesn't tickle it hurts . No do No not again. I've got bad indigestion. You lying git. Indigestion . That's what you get when you're an old bastard. Or trapped wind, whatever you wanna call it. farts. Oh no that's not recording is it? Yes it is. It's been recording since you came in. just swear? I can't remember, did you? Eh soon find out. It doesn't matter it's been recording for ages. So what, where's this page and a half that you said Oh please can I just have a look No ! To see how well it's copied out the book. Do as your big brother tells you. Why? What for? You might wanna, you've never written that much in your life. Ah ah ah Don't swear! Cameron don't poke him with long poles. Bet that bleeding hurt. Get lost I'm trying to do my chemistry prep. You are stupid! Cameron you really shouldn't poke your poles up his bottom. Thanks Jim. Why do you? No I don't. Oh bollocks I can't write that it's a bit of the old incest. That's disgusting, Just let me have a quick look Have you two got the same prep? Yeah. We have most things, we have most things the same. Yeah cos they're all in the same set, cos they're, cos they're bo cos all of them are thick. And what are you in Jimmy? I'm in the sets above them. So he should be in the set below us. Ah that really hurt that I'm in set free for French. Set free. Three! Set three for science. Spelt F R E E. Jimmy you're on a linguistic I'm in, I'm in, I'm in, I'm in I'm in are you? I'm in the same set, I'm in the same set for him as maths. M A F S . And history. And history. That's alright that one. What else am I in? Begun with an H. Turn up the music a bit. First of all you tell me to turn it down and then you tell me to turn it up. another bit of music for about two minutes. I'll have to get up tonight fucking loads of work to do. You always have loads of work Hey that's my job, leave him alone. How's it going Garf? Garf? Garfield. Oh. Oh yeah he does look a bit like Garfield. Do you wanna sod off! Is that, whose, is that yours Alistair? What? The speaking into a banana . What's he on? A monkey talking to a banana. Why do you think it's rude Nick? Yes. A monkey talking to the banana He's speaking to it what he's doing with that. Oi I need that . So do I. It's my sheet. It's the telephone James. Oh shut up. Yeah at twenty past. Yeah he's supposed to be in bed by Oh I'd better go. Yes I think you'd better. Right okay. I'll see you later mate. See you. Yeah but don't forget to try again . And tell her to pick me up at ten thirty. Not ten thirty, twelve thirty. Ten thirty? You gonna skive lessons? Truancy. Truancy. Yeah. Whose is the other one? See we're not nought percent, the other one Whose is the other one? Thanks Nick. Oh my God! I haven't seen that one before That was house, last year. He was off his face a bit. Christmas celebration. Pissed as a fart. You're not meant to do that, it's not meant to be like that. Right see you, bye. Well it is now innit? What's that? Linguistics. Yeah! Do they give you headphones as well? Do you get to keep them? Oh yeah! No but wants to know if you get to keep all the tapes cos he want to them all. I know. He's gonna He's gonna chief them. Chief 'em he's gonna chaff 'em all. He's going to take them without you're knowing. Mm. James. Spastic. More reactive metals are more abundant in the earth's crust as one can see by looking at the grass. I can't think what else to write. Oh hold on. I've just been doing the wrong question. I called it question one it's question six, oopsy, seven. Using the table two, where's that? Thanks James, here we are. I've done that. and try to explain why gold is more expensive than silver. Gold is the Well she'd just be calling back about now. abundant. My little friend. Gold is the least abundant I need that . and Why ? least reactive Oh no. Aluminium is more expensive than iron. Please could you refrain from using such a Aluminium is more expensive than iron as it is disrupting my mind patterns. Yeah? because it Oh mate! is take it down Hertford. harder I'll take it round Simon extract and get the Which is worse product out. copper is more expensive than aluminium. Oi will you give me the question sheet, I need it! No, wait. Buy your own. It is mine! are not the only factors that affect the price of metals other factors might be important. Is that the last question? No. We've got chemistry. We haven't got chemistry till the afternoon. I know. I know. I don't know why I'm doing it. easily found Right on. They'll get bust and erm He'll sit on them. Well no but if I do bust 'em Whether or not they are easily found Can you buy them again? or easily What? ex Oh cos I wanna get some headphones cos extracted earphones just sort of pl go on the outside of your ear whereas the er headphones actually go inside your ears. It saves battery power that's all. Cos you How can you save battery power? No cos you, you only have to have it on volume three to get the same amount of noise out instead of volume two. So if you're playing rave and you have it on volume two really really Easily extracted I've gotta get a new pair of headphones I don't know, I was listening to one of my headphones, alright I pulled it out And it broke. and like a little speaker bit stayed inside my ear and the outer bit came out and I don't know what happened cos they were alright before. It is easily obtained. Have you seen Mark 's erm earphones? Headphones. Like in gold, they're sort of I mean they're not real gold, gold plated on the outside. Question nine. Imagine a world in which gold and silver were cheap but iron and aluminium were rare, what advantages would there be making a car from gold instead of iron and saucepans from silver instead of aluminium. Well he's got two Walkmans himself, his mum's got one, his brother's got one. They're all like really flush gits. reactive, reactive and Who? turn it down, and it's on volume one or something. This doesn't make sense. I can't be bothered to do this. I'm doing question ten tomorrow. Hit all the lights, let's have some light in this room. This is such a massive room, there's so many lights. It's freezing as well. Absolutely freezing. Freezing freezing freezing freezing bloody hell it's cold. It is freezing cold and here we are in lessons ready to get completely bored by our headmaster Mr Jimmy Yes thank you Jimmy. Go on chuck it on someone's head, go on. Shall I chuck it? Yeah. Just chuck it. Go on jump down and get it. ! Disgusting. How dare you. It wasn't me. God you lot are awful. Yes sir. You sure? Yeah po Yeah I've just been through there. I'll just check again. liar. He's lying. Eh? Sir it's locked. It's a good thing he made you check wasn't it? That man who was shouting was Mr a complete and utter headcase. Sir can you chuck the keys up and unlock it. And then keep the keys. I wouldn't trust him with the keys. I wouldn't trust him with anything. I wouldn't trust him Yeah go on sir. I wouldn't sir. I'll guess. it's the big one, the big . Oh I've got the I can see it fr Er that one there. Got you. That's not the big one sir. Yeah. Cheers. Which one is it? The one with the big teeth. It's the one with the big teeth. Got it. Yeah. This Julian person we're referring to is, is a complete and utter crimple Complete and utter. And he's a bit ooh Julian, Julian, Julian, Roberto hairdresser, that kind of Sir I've done it. Sir mind your eyes sir. Well caught sir. ! Ollie what have you done to the back of your jacket? think I might stop now as there's too, recording's gonna be getting a bit difficult. Oh no! What? Something's going on. What? I think I've got the wrong battery. What am I like? Dunno. We are now in the studies What's this? Oh no, lots of work. How horrible. Right. What's going on? Maths project on drugs. Right. Now the formula is either a half or minus one times minus two or or it's a half N minus one times N minus two over two. Have you got a pen? And it's for one of the regions it's a closed one. Which regions? What is it? Half Lines to closed regions? Are you talking about regions? No, half N minus one. Half brackets N minus one. Yeah. Times N minus two What are you doing? And I'm not sure if it's over two or not. You are a sad bastard . Thank you. this? Leave it. What's it doing? Recording what we're saying, linguistics thing for Norway. Really? So is it recording me? yeah. Yes. It's recording you personally You see this thing did you buy this separately or did it come in the Walkman? We were lent them. Lent them? Yeah. By who? Norwegian government. No b university. These or the Walkmans as well? Both. Does the Walkman have to be a special type? No to record that. But I mean like could you plug that into a normal Walkman? Don't know. had a record button. Yeah you can. But it has to have a record button? Yeah. Yeah. That's got a record button. I can see, I can see it's got a record button. Yeah I just thought I'd point it out to you. I know you did. Can we listen to this? Can we wind it back and listen to it? No! No recorded lots of conversations. Ru can I borrow some of your erm , just a little bit? No. Why? Cos I need it. The bastard. Have you got any Ji ple er Ru please! No. Please! That's all I've got till the end of term. Please! No. Please. If I bring you in a bottle of concentrate? No. You do know what he just said? A bottle. I'll bring you in a bottle of concentrate. Concentrate of what? Floor cleaner. Ah listen right, our cleaner upstairs yeah you know sh that these cleaners the new ones we've got are really good yeah? Yeah. The cleaner upstairs, she asked me to find out what kind of cakes everybody liked cos she's buying every single person an individual, like you know, a single cake for everybody. Not like a big one to share like she's buying everybody a cake each. It's fucking brilliant. The one who's down here as well? Shit they didn't record that did they? It doesn't matter. Well I said a rude word. Well no it doesn't matter er Anonymity guaranteed. it doesn't matter Anonymity Pissing hell! Anona anona anonymity That's the one. Yeah. is guaranteed so it doesn't really matter. And then just use bits of the tapes. So they won't use I should imagine. they won't use the bit where we say fuck fuck fuck Fuck. she, she's brilliant so we're gonna ask if she can be, well we've asked, she's coming to our house dinner you know ask that bloke. Well what, what are you gonna do, go up and ask the bloke oh can you buy me a cake ? Well no but he's not our cleaner. No that's what cleaner, she's Oh right. Yeah. Cos she's down here quite a lot of the time. Yeah. Yeah but she's only down here to get things from the cleaning cupboard and stuff. I've seen, I've seen her sweeping. She swept earlier on today! She sweeps everywhere continually, she always sleeping, sweeping isn't she? I know er she sweeps in the hearth at lunchtime I know and first thing in the morning. I know th they're brilliant she's She's really good. And they're really friendly as well aren't they? I know. They're always saying hello She's, she's, she's really friendly right. driving past in that little Rascal van That, that woman yeah she's upstairs and you go up there in the morning and she's on her hands and knees on your carpet sweeping your carpet cos she hasn't got a hoover. Oh we get a hoover. But she's on your cheapos Have you worked out or not? No she said she Well can I just lift this up and just like speak into it? Yeah it's recording you know it's sensitive, don't cos that sounds really bad. Oh I see the level thing comes up. If you shout does it go even oh it does just about go higher. Yeah Wow! No go and have some more scintillating conversation with Ross. Go and speak to Ross. Oh you fucking reek of onion as well. Don't you like onion? No. Do you know what Charlie said to him tonight? No what did he, what did he say? Yeah he's gonna take him to the master. Charlie is gonna take James to the master. Yes. But you could you could bug someone probably like say that was covered up you could talk to them and make, they wouldn't even realize they were being Shut up will you. Sorry I thought that was quite Could you, could you plug this into like a dictaphone? Yeah. Yeah as long as it's got a recording Well of course dictaphones have always got records on them, that's why they're called dictaphones. Oh sorry. Yeah cos you dictate into them. Oh be quiet! Oh be quiet and will it pick it up as well if you do that? If I do that. Yes it can pick it up. Yeah it picks everything up. Look. that's brilliant. Shit I've gotta get one of these. if you pick another button it tells you how much battery power you've got left. Look. Look that's how much battery power I've got left. You've got loads basically. Yeah. He's got four packets of batteries. And about ten tapes. Hang on a minute. have you seen the tapes as well? What all supplied by the Norwegian government? Have you seen the tapes? Have you seen these tapes? Well of course I have. Brilliant tapes. Shit! C D recording type. What and they're all supplied by the Norwegian government? streamlined as well all rounded at the edge. Yeah that's, they're new cases here though are, well no have you seen the cases here they're even more, they're even more than that. I know. You know you said these were all by the, are you, when are you going to Norway? Are you going with like No. Is he going to Norway! They're being sent to Norway cos they are, they are I said when is he going to Norway not is he going I'm not going to Norway. The lady came here on, on, when was it? Thursday Well what, what how come, why, well who did she talk to? Anyone in No it was offered, it was offered around and me and said yeah we'd do it. It's a linguistic thing to find out how upper class exclusive We're, we're known as upper class teenagers. Oh, oh we're upper class school children are we now? Oh that's fantastic ! No you're not. You can try. That's exactly what he sounds like when it's played back. What? When I talk on it. When I talk on it . He listens, he listens to it afterwards and he goes no I can't understand, well now I can, now I can understand why they take the piss out of me for my voice . Oh shut up. Don't, it's so sensitive I promise. Look the recording level is Yeah so, so then who did she offer it round to? Charlie ch ch Mr came and said, Charlie, came and said erm Charlie ? Yeah Yeah the bald one. The, what the bald, fat coot? Came and said okay who wants to do this and me and said yeah we'd do it. The little cunt who made me parade in front of him at eight thirty in the morning so I erm That's the one. Pardon me. We'll probably, you'll probably have someone like Mr listening to this tape. Good, fuck off Mr No just take, just take them back. oh it was brilliant. ah he was so class, he was brilliant. He's so He's, he's he's so much better than Mr Shit that's good. Can we listen back to it please, can we just listen to it and we'll go back to the same place? can't cos I have to take it out and Oh just quick! No cos I have to plug in earphones. No you don't. Yes I do. Can't you plug it into the stereo? No. Yeah but I just don't want to have to take it out What the fuck's this? Just leave, Ben just leave it. marked on the Is this so you can make do they let you keep the stuff at the end? Oh right on! That'd be quite good. Don't cos I swear when it, I did that and it sounds deafening cos th look how high the recording level is. But it's always that high even when I'm speaking now it's going that high. No but recording level here is on ten, I'm not sure I'll turn it down. Right it's low. oh it is. You could put it like, like that couldn't you? No cos I don't like you. How long have you got it for? Till Friday. Till Friday, is that all? Mm. This Friday? Next week. Next week. When did you get it? Thursday. Yesterday? I haven't done one tape, this is my first tape and the first side. Oh she's gonna be pleased with you No How many tapes did she give you? Ten. Do you have to give them all back? No! Come on No. We're upper class teenagers Ben. So? Not young louts. well one of us is a young lout, we won't say who. Give me one please. Can I have one please? No. Thank you. Just cos it's your birthday I might as well give you one I suppose It's my birthday but I didn't tell anyone cos I don't want a cold bath. I almost got away with it until saw two letters Ah these taste disgusting, what are they? Pear drops. I love them. That's something you take when you're feeling ill. You're not kidding. No well you don't have to take them when you're ill, you're allowed to take them when you're feeling alright an'all. Am I? Yeah. There's no point in staring at it, it's not gonna say hello. Hello! It might do. Hey did you see the helicopter ? I know. Fucking low. No it was low Wonder if they realize that upper class teenagers like us say fuck rather a lot. Did they realize do you think? They realize now. Go on Jimmy, what's your comment on this? Oh fuck We could listen to these all at the end. conversation. Actually you should like After you finish your first tape can we rewind it and so we can all listen to it and then rewind it back so they don't You should so they don't know we've done it. well you should copy these tapes no listen right you should copy these cos when you're like older you're gonna want to erm listen to what you used to say and like what it used to be like and you've got about ten tapes that you don't wanna use? No but just one tape see, I mean one and then when you're older you'll have a tape of what you used to sound like. Why do Nor why do Norwegian people To know how we speak. But wh what do they care? Norwegian, can they speak English? Yeah. Suppose they can. But why do they want them, I mean what are they gonna use it for? I don't know. I think I've just spelt friends wrong haven't I? How do you spell friend? No that's right. That's it. No it's E I. Friend, friends. Friend friends? Friends, occupation age fifteen that? Is that me? Well how comes you've got me down there already? It's what I have to do. Oh go away otherwise you'll be on the tape. Fuck off we don't want you on the tape. They don't wanna know that we have upper class children like you here. Au revoir. Or sprechen as they say in Norway Shut up Ben. Norwegians They'll probably send some bloke over to do you over. as well. You can soon go and ask them cos some git's gonna be coming over and hitting you for taking the What the hell's he doing? Being very drunk, that's what he's doing. Why's he dressed as a clown? He's not he's dressed as Father Christmas! Father Christmas! Well why's he got on like a big thing round his neck, a ruff. It's a beard you idiot . It's not a fucking beard, that's not what a beard l if he could ever grow a beard like that I'd bloody give him Yeah. A blow job. you've still got this poster, What poster? Which poster? Shut up. do you know why she did it? I went erm excuse me can you clean something please, like this yeah and she kind of went you little shit, I'm gonna get my husband to come and break your legs No Ben, please. You're just ruining it I promise, I won't ruin it I promise. Read that. No no I just wanna Oh is it? You can have Piers, not literally, I mean just on the tape. Well you can have him on the tape which is on top of the table . Do you mind! Well why don't you go and sit down there? Cos it's more comfortable here. I said why don't you go and sit down there. Oh I am sitting down here thank you very Yes! Ah! Ah ah ah. There it is, I found it. What, the problem page? Yeah. You are That's what you need . Oh read 'em out, give them a laugh, they probably don't get Sky in Sweden or Norway. No. Let me find a good one. Yeah please let him read them out. Go on. Otherwise it's stupid. There's no point in me doing it I mean if I could just hear Ben going ah ah ah You've squashed my shoe! Get out! Yeah. Out. Listen to this I think you should feature a special one off page on different types of masturbation techniques for men, most of us learn from our experiments, what do you think? I spent many sleepless nights tossing and turning I'm gonna do my chemistry. Haven't you finished? In the early nineteen eighties the recession in industrialized countries caused the price of aluminium to fall so the Jamaicans not need to mine I'm not doing any maths I can't concentrate on maths. as quickly as normal. because the need for it was not as great. Ben shut up, you can't sing. That's right. Are you in a squeak society? Mhm I'm in three squeak societies, four squeak societies. Ben That's embarrassing. Oh no not that one. We can't have a squeak in this room. Get out. I'm not a fucking squeak I'm just in a choir. Yeah, precisely . Ah that just shows your ignorance dunnit really? Yeah I'm a member of that one. Shows my ignorance. Yeah if you weren't ignorant you'd know there's four parts to a choir and not just one section. With a laugh like that you've gotta be. Oh you're so funny. Sorry it's your sorry it's your birthday I shouldn't say anything. It's alright I know I take the piss out of you every other day of the year but today I will not from now on. You have been. You never take the piss out of me. You'd better start then I suppose. My boyfriend and I have been going out for six weeks and everything is wonderful but it takes me honestly two hours to reach orgasm. I often find myself bonking into unconsciousness before I can come Unconsciousness! I think she's joking . You stupid sod. Who you talking to ? See you later Mark, get your hair cut while you're there. Poofter You nineteen quid. No listen, listen you've gotta listen to this my girlfriend and I have sex whenever we can and really enjoy it oral sex but we have heard that sexually transmitted diseases can be passed on by drinking each other 's juices from oral sex, is this true ? drinking juice from oral sex the glass gets in the way, the carton falls over and bent straws So stupid. Now I'm going to do some work. See you later Yeah see you later. Gotta make sure Grub hasn't nicked anything he's a dodgy little geezer. Dodgy little geezer. I'm not a dodgy little geezer. Yeah! I'm not a dodgy k Shut up . How much more of this tape? Oh I haven't got much to go now. Okay What? Nothing. listen to this,I'm becoming increasingly aware that my landlady's been making sexual passes at me, I didn't take them seriously until she climbed in the shower with me Oh no! Mm la la la la I'm bored, bored bored bored. Chemistry, physics, Spanish. Chemistry none, physics none Spanish none. Have you stopped that blinking tape yet? No. Haven't got much to go though. Thought we were doing the other side. You can give me a few at a time if you like. I've only got two left. Oh have you? Hard luck. That one Read it. and that one. Read it. Actually not that top one. Ben do you mind erm breaking the study every time you sit down? I haven't broken the fucking furniture. Yes you have. Is this today's paper? What? Today's paper. Rupert. Is it over here? Oh hold on I've got it. No you haven't. Yes I have. This is awful about these kids. Yeah. So bad. Imagine being one of their parents. Are we still working on those jobby,jobs today in physics? No watch the video. Oh yeah Oh we could tape, tape 's lesson. Yeah! And then if he asks you what you're doing just say it's for like, you know, a project we're supposed to be doing. No cos it's meant to be normal conversation. Well it will be a conversation, it'll be a lesson, we have conversations in lessons. And they'll be able to experience what you say to each other whilst you're having lessons in England. No it's not very practical. Yeah all you here is practical. Practical. Practical. Well fair enough, but it's not very practical therefore who's marking his work? alright, who's marking his work, Steve 's work, er Mr Mr what are you doing? Ah! Oh my God No listen to this one No wait wait wait wait, go on. I've been dating a wonderful chick for two years now but she's just too frigid, sex is out of the question so one night I masturbated and pulled too hard on the sensitive part of my penis, now the tissues around the foreskin are swollen and septic but I'm too distressed and embarrassed to see a doctor and my f girlfriend wants nothing to do with me, I find it hard to urinate what can I do ? Well I don't know what you're doing now Commit suicide quick. You know how they say they were driving home to erm Who? you know this erm erm minibus crash? Oh yeah. Erm most were dozing as the minibus headed home in the small hours from the ni the school's prom concert at the Royal Albert Hall in London, the impact as the Ford Transit driven by the teacher Emma Fry thirty five, ploughed into the back of a stationary motorway maintenance lorry Mm? And that's, that's what they did, they hit a stationary I know but do you know what, do know what I reckon do you know what I reckon happened? What? I reckon the teacher fell asleep at the wheel. No. Why? Oh it could easily be. It's like obvious. The three survivors were pulled clear as the er in the, in the moment before the vehicle exploded into a ball of flame . He gave me a fucking bad ticket the bastard. He gave me one too you know. Yeah but I got more than you. What did you get? Shit I, I was on the wrong prep and bad mark What d'ya get? Three out of twenty. And he gave me a bad ticket, bastard. Who's that, Rupert? I got one. Charlie got kicked in the door as well. Same day I kicked in the door. Yeah I thought you kicked the door because you did that? No. No he just walked through the door and the panel fell I walked in the door and the fucking panel fell out. Literally walked through the door? Yeah . Well no, Well you know when you walk through the door out there you put your foot like that and go well Rupert went like that and but his foot went straight through They're such cheapskates you know they put the same panel back on. Yeah on the other side. They've just put a new piece of wood on the back. But wouldn't it just be cheaper to buy the new, new, just buy a new, just buy a new panel Well it wouldn't be cheaper. No they just put chipboard behind it so it stays there. It's just 's such a cheapskate. This school is so cheap! We have like, we have hundreds of crap facilities rather than just a few good ones. And we can't even get a decent piece of grub round this place now. We can't even,and the worse thing is we can't even get a decent piece of grub round this place any more. We can't even get a decent piece of grub. No it sounds like you're meant to be doing . No look speak normally because speak normally Speak normally Biggest ever bag. It's fucking massive yeah the bag's big but what you get inside is exactly the same. nice to have a little bit of your concentrate. No ! Please. No it's mine, it's all mine. Rain Man was on tonight. I know. Actually I tell you one good thing about being in this choir yeah, I'm in this little choir tonight,choir yeah, So's casual sex. which is only about which is only, which is only about like eight or nine people yeah? Oh so you're the creme de la choir. and we've got to, we've got to sing for the master Creme de la and his, and his friends and that yeah and erm so we're all, we don't have to go to supper and we're getting, we're all getting His friends? pizza from Pizzahut. His friends, he hasn't got any friends. Well okay then, acquaintances. Well it's not my fault he's a bastard. We all get in there and he goes sit down please did you see about half the people sat down before he I know. And then everyone stood up again. It was well funny. He goes now you may sit down please . Did he? Did he say now? Did you hear him at chapel? He goes it's not funny, you can't take the piss out of all those poor people that died. I'm not I'm taking the piss out the way he said it. There's a difference. Oh sure it's still disrespectful. No it's not. No it isn't . Yes it is. No it's not disrespectful to how he said something. It's not. It's just the way he speaks, he's, he was trying to put across a really serious point. He was trying to put across a serious point. Yes, yeah he was trying to put across a serious point but he didn't really succeed cos everybody just takes the piss out of his voice. That's just the way he speaks though. No I, I didn't I didn't take the piss out of him, I listened, I actually Okay, okay, okay Listen, listen, listen I'm not taking the piss out of the point cos I know the point's very serious but I'm taking the piss out of the way he said it cos I think he sounded stupid but that doesn't mean I have any disrespect for erm Innocent little children. Yeah, quite. Very sad. Well they're not so much children actually they were about eighteen. twelve. Twelve. We're talking about the people who died in the first world war. taking the piss out of them. I thought you were talking about this morning. No I was taking the piss out of when you were in the remembrance service when No we're not talking about today! Oh. Oh you stupid It is! It's not. It is . They died so we could live. Yeah I know all that but I'm not taking the piss out of that cos obviously the way he said it! Probably shagging some camel or something. Shagging some why would they be shagging a camel ? Not but they might be shagging camels and then all the camels got they say the British were shagging penguins Let me just put this on pause for a bit. Hello. Computers are used in all walks of life, although so far in our series of programmes we've largely been looking at scientific applications. Today, however, we're going to examine quite a different area — how computers can help librarians to make better use of their stock. Peter Stone is a librarian at the university. Peter, how useful have you found the computer in our library? Well first of all I suppose one should say that we don't just use one computer, we, like lots of other libraries, have got access to a large number of computers, and indeed you'll find these computers being used elsewhere for the same sort of way. Probably most people have seen displays of Prestel, even in television rental shops, which is a system running through the Post Office network accessing large amounts of mainly factual information — things like telephone directories, like timetables, like oh a lot of business information. That's very effective if you're dealing with factual information which is changing fairly rapidly, and I think we'll see quite a growth of that in the next few years, but libraries aren't just stores of factual information; they store a large number of books and articles and they need access to that too, and probably the most typical external use of a computer in libraries and in a university library, academic library, these days is to access the huge stores of information on scientific publishing. There's one gigantic computer in California, which has got access to a hundred databases there called the stores of information, compiled mainly by the publishers of journals. It's got thirty million articles in it, when you can find information, pull out articles relevant to your needs, by looking for authors, looking for words in the text and you can look at the summary of the article very quickly. In both Prestel and those sorts of things as you use the system you pay, and you pay for the telecommunications costs, you pay for the computer costs, and you pay for the information that you receive. And that sort of worldwide sharing of information, I am sure, is going to grow. However, my own interest, perhaps, is more in what a library, a typical library not just a university library, can do with its own computer, and most of our most of our readers, most of the people who use libraries expect to find books in those libraries and expect to find them when they want them, and our interests have been angled very much towards improving that sort of service. So there's a sense in which you use a computer for all sorts of different purposes. You use the computer when books are issued, for example? Yes, I'm sure most people by now are quite familiar with the use of computers in this way. In fact, in about 1971 there was a sudden spate of development in this area, and both the University Library and what was then Brighton Public Library and West Sussex all were innovators in those days, using computer-based lending systems, which used little cards with lots of little holes in them and — I am sure they are familiar to lots of people — in the last few years you'll have seen those holes replaced by sort of zebra stripes erm what are called bar codes in the trade, and those bar codes you'll also see on your groceries all over the place. That's an interesting problem, the way we communicate erm a computer is not the way we necessarily think of it. You can only distinguish your library card from that of a book by the difference in the thickness of one line. It's just a thick line for humans and a thin line for books, possibly, but it works and we haven't had any problems. So when you actually are checking out a book, the librarian runs a little light pen, is it, over the code, so that it That's it. Well, there again, there's a compromise. We all know how to use pens — we were taught how to use a pen in primary school — but the computer can't read our writing yet, so we use something which looks like a pen, but it's reading something which doesn't look like letter of the alphabet and words, but which it can understand and understand very quickly and very accurately indeed. And presumably the advantage of using a computer for that is much greater than the mere saving of time in a library and taking out a card and putting it in a wallet or erm a card folder or something like that, because you can retain in your computer a lot of information about what books are in the library and what books are out with lenders and so on. Right. That information is only part of the very large store of information that we need to retain in our own local computer, which contains records about erm it's about a hundred and fifty thousand of our four hundred and fifty thousand different books at this moment. Going back on what I said earlier on, East Sussex County Library, for example, keep their records of books, their catalogue, on a system which is run from the British Library and the Polytechnic draws that sort of information from a co-operative, which was originally based in Birmingham. We've chosen to go it alone, but the net result is the same, that the computer store of information includes information on the authors and the titles of the books and, of course, now includes information on the books that are being borrowed, who's got them, when they're coming back, how many other copies we've got, whether we've got copies on order and all of that, all in one central store of information, a central store which can be shared by everyone using the library. mhm And I suppose in the old days if you actually wanted to know which books were popular and which books were not used at all, you had to a library and to painstakingly look through the shelves, perhaps, and look at the date stamps or something like that, whereas now presumably it's just a question of pressing a few buttons and the information comes. Well, right. In the old days we simply couldn't afford to do that. We're not dealing with a thousand items, we're dealing with four hundred and fifty thousand items, and for anyone to go and collect that information on a larger scale, even sampling it would have been almost unthinkable. Now the computer can collect this sort of information as people borrow the books, as a sort of by-product, if you like. The book is lent, it needs to be know when it's gone out, when it's due back, but the computer clock up one — that bit of information adds to other bits of information, all within the central store. We know what the price of the book was. We had to pay for it, so we had to send off a bill and therefore it knows what the price is. We have to put a shelf mark on the books so that we can shelve the book, but that tells us quite a lot about the subject, and if you start putting those three things together the librarian, as manager of his library, can start to put all this information together — in fact, the computer digests it for him — to give him an overview of how effective his operation is, when he should be buying extra copies, when perhaps he should be thinking of not buying quite so much, or being a little more selective. But the reader gains as well, because he sees it from a different angle. Most of our users come into the library looking for a very specific book. About eighty per cent of the users are students and they've normally been told to read this, or read that, or read the other, and if they now use one of our computer terminals, which has got a little video screen on the top and a little keyboard, they can look up the books, they can look them up by title, by the title of the book as well as by the traditional author approach, and when they've found it the computer tells them how many copies are in the library, or whether they're all on loan. It's all drawing information from this same central store of information erm it's a way of sharing information amongst a lot of different people for a lot of different reasons, information which previously would have been separated and almost impossible to put together without a great deal of effort. Let's harp back to what you were saying earlier about information storage on a very large scale. You mentioned the explosion of information, particularly in the science area where there are thousands, literally thousands, of publications and scientists producing more information, more data, every day and pumping into these things. Do you think it's going to ultimately change the whole notion of publishing. Do you think that perhaps in due course publishing will move into an area in which you wouldn't actually ever print anything, you would actually put it into a machine? Well, yes, it's very interesting, but I'm not sure it's working in the same direction as almost implied by your question of implying that there was almost too much. One of the more fascinating changes has been the introduction of word processing equipment, whereby someone who types his article can just send off something like a floppy disk to his publisher, and without much intervention it appears as the printed article. The publisher, traditionally, needs to sell at least a thousand copies of that to be worth even advertising it, but this means that you can print an extra copy whenever you want and this then implies perhaps and even larger and larger growth and more and more specialised information, which only computers can manage, and one hesitates to work out where the end of all this is. The human race is producing so much information — it isn't factual information, we're not just looking at price movements of stocks and shares, but in the scientific community it's very much to do with ideas and how that person can get across his ideas, his concepts to people to half a world away. That's a very complicated question. And you mentioned, then, how a floppy disk — that's a sort of disk storage device — can be used to get a book printed, is this being used at all in practice, or is it just a daydream? Oh, yes, indeed, a close friend of mine has been working on the history of a very large British company and he's just seen the proofs produced from the printers from the typescript which was typed in his own office, and apart from the fact that their computers can change the typefaces and improve the whole thing, the work has not had to be re-keyboarded, as they would say, re-typed in at all. It does save things very considerably. It's part of the this way in which the computer can turn information over and over again for a different need. I saw in publishing a very nice example of that, not the word processing, but at John Wylies, who are a very big scientific publishers in Chichester, where they had a computer system which the editors — he's the person who deals with the author, puts the book together — set about ordering the book; the orders and that information went into the computer, when the thing was printed it went into the warehouse and the computer then organised the storage of all of these things in the warehouse. Orders came in, and that helped the warehouse people unpack the boxes and despatch them; the information got fed back to the editor to tell him what the sales were, and it was a continuous process and all of the people tended to see the computer as working very much for them, rather than for the other department next door. And presumably if you wanted to revise a book at all, and you had the book on your floppy disk or in your computer in some for, you could again use your word processor to bring it up to date in a revised version. Well that's that is I think everyone who's ever worked on computers, editing or word processors, has been very fascinated by the change of attitude that they've had, that somehow it isn't finished. It's never finished. Previously you could ask someone to type up first draft, second draft, maybe a third draft, but how far can you drive your secretary, and now they can be wholly in charge of this — they can change the layout of it as much as the words within it; they can ask colleagues to come in and comment and even add a little bit. Could you revised paragraph ten, Fred? That sort of thing goes on continuously. The thing is moulded under your eyes. And a recent book which has been very popular in the university, Goedel Esher Bach, which is on some of the aspects of artificial intelligence and ideas, has in its preface got a quite a long article on how the author actually organized all of the processes, right through to the final printing of that book, and indeed even wrote the programs for formatting the text, and it had obviously been very stimulating for him. He could organize the final output of everything that he had thought, right from the beginning through to end. Well, thank you very much, Peter, that's most interesting. That's all that we have time for today. Next week I shall be talking to Delia Venables. Hello. This is another programme in our series from the university, in which we share with you news and views concerning activities that are going on here. During the coming weeks, as I told you in our last programme, we are going to talk with people from outside the university who have contacts with us. I recently spoke to Chris Cooper, who's director of the South East Arts Association. I asked him when he first became aware of the university. Well I became aware of the University of Sussex when the Gardener Centre first opened I think, because at that time I was working at the Arts Council of Great Britain and it was erm an innovative scheme which attracted a great deal of national interest, and we were naturally invited down to have a look at it, both the design and the programme that was being planned for the opening season at that time. I therefore became very clearly aware of the potential that the university held for the whole of the East Sussex area. The Gardener Centre was in fact the first Arts Centre associated with the university? Well I'm not sure that it was exactly the first, but it was one of the early ones, that's true. And you're now Director of South East Arts, having left the Arts Council. How long have you been the new director? I've been down here six months now. What area does the region actually cover? We cover the whole of Kent, the whole of East Sussex, and the whole of Surrey. And so what happens to the other part of Sussex, does that belong to a different region? West Sussex belongs to Southern Arts Association, who operate erm to the west of us, right the way through to Dorset. How about Brighton? Is that a hot area so far as the arts are concerned? Yes, very hot. I mean it's an enormous resource in terms of talented people, facilities, interesting ideas that we use as a bank to fuel other parts of the region which are less active. There's far more interesting activity taking place in Brighton than there is in any other single borough area of the whole of the South East region, and that's reflected in the amount of money which we give to activities in the Brighton area. You, of course, have your headquarters in Tunbridge Wells, isn't that rather a long way to have much contact with Brighton? It's equidistant between the excitements of Brighton and the challenges of Gillingham, Chatham and the Medway towns, so strategically it's well suited to us. You say that Brighton could in fact contribute to the other parts of the region. In what way could this be possible? Well it's certainly clear that some of the companies, for instance Cliffhanger, which have grown in Brighton and developed Brighton as a base, are not just immensely popular within Brighton, but also very popular when we take them out on tour, or when they offer their services to other venues in other parts of East Sussex or Kent, and this is equally true of some of the community orientated groups, some of the musicians and artists who live and work primarily in Brighton erm their talent is readily appreciable throughout the region and therefore it's part of our tactics to talk to artists who are operating in the Brighton area and see whether they're willing or interested in taking some of their work out to other parts of the region. You say you have contact with many of the people in the region, do you have any contact with Radio Brighton just out of interest? Yes, yes. I think the association had in the early a very close working relationship with Radio Brighton and we certainly keep contact with Radio Medway, Radio Brighton and all the other television and radio companies which are active within the region. I don't think our contact is halfway strong enough, but the proposal to handle that is something that we we're working on a the moment. Bob Gunnell, of course, is an was and has been for some time a very supportive member of South East Arts and active in many of its committees. Yes, he's always jumping on me to tell me to do more for local radio and get South East Arts and South East Arts clients more regularly in contact with local radio, and I must admit on the latter case I do think that many of our clients do spend a great deal of time and erm want to be active with local radio. In fact, at the Gardener Centre a few months after I took after we did a workshop which Radio Brighton took part in and came up and gave a class in terms of how to make the most out of your local radio station, and that kind of thing we really need to develop even further. How do you see the Gardener Centre fitting into the South East Arts region? What can it offer the region? Well it's a very important resource. It's very difficult, and I think that people involved in the Gardener Centre have, ever since its inception, found it quite difficult to work how quite how it fits into the overall Brighton scene, and I find it fascinating to look at the nature of facilities which exist in central Brighton and try and work out in one's own mind how best he facility of the Gardener fits in with that. It's complicated by its geographical positioning. There may, indeed, be positive aspects to the slight detachment of the Gardener Centre from the central hubbub, which we've yet to work out how fully to utilize. I know that the Arts Centre, which I was very much involved with in erm Berkshire in Southfield Park, it, too, was situated slightly out of the centre of the town, with large ground area around it and it was a problem trying to work out how to capitalize on that considerable asset. It turned out to be erm used more fully as a family centre, where families would come and spend half a day, than it did the casual pop-in arts centre, which the old arts laboratories or the more conventional arts centre perhaps were directed towards. And it may be that the Gardener Centre has a broader community function than previously realized, in that it might be a marvellous place for families and kids and mums and dads, as they did on the recent Gardener Open Day, to come up and spend some time in casual appreciation of the arts instead of what, traditionally, a university campus is supposed to do, which is a serious and intensive look at experimental and avant garde work. The siting of the Gardener may not be appropriate to that. We made a very definite decision some years ago to make the Gardener Centre look towards the community as a whole, rather than just make it a university toy, or part of the formal academic programme. I think it's worked on the whole, although sometimes we have reservations. Certainly, it's the strongest point of contact between town and gown. That becomes very clear in any survey we've ever done. mhm I'm interested about your comments erm that it could be used to do more in terms of families. Do you have any further thoughts on that? Well, we've talked ourselves about the consequences about of that role on the catering operation which is available. The families we who've used our arts centres in other parts of the country have been influenced erm not just by the quality of art work on display, but also by the fact they can get decent beer and erm good, cheap food erm and the children and the other parts of the family have got plenty of other activities to to to take an interest in and I think it would need the university to think seriously about developing the social side of the Gardener Centre in those terms, and that's why it was deeply disappointing to find the university pulling back on their subsidy for the Gardener Centre as that really can't help anybody find the most appropriate role for the building. It's marvellous that the Brighton Corporation came in, but nevertheless the building to perform a function which is going to be useful for the community as a whole has got to be properly funded. I think many of us would sympathise with that view. erm I would have to say in the university's defence, as you would imagine I would say Yes, I can see the Vice Chancellor banging on the wall as I speak. . But there you are. that it comes in the context of massive university cuts, but I don't think it's worth pursuing that very much further. No, but the point is that to in all our cases to provide a community resource which is going to be of genuine use to artists and the general public, erm one has to take care that the standards of work and the standards of community facilities are as high as they possibly can be if you want to attract maximum usage, and what we will be trying to do in circumstances like this encourage as many people to come up to the Gardener at weekends during the summer and have as enjoyable a time as possible. I take your point. Do you think there are other ways in which perhaps the Gardener Centre could fit more into the Brighton community? No, I think probably over the years every avenue, other than perhaps this one, has been exploited to the full. I mean in the periods that I've been coming down and coming over, and it's been a fairly regular basis, I should imagine every manager and director or university employee has put forward every conceivable way in which that particular building could be used. I would have thought that most things have been tried by now and I would not imagine that there are many other avenues to be followed. The fact is that the building, whilst it claims to be flexible, is fairly inflexible. I think I've sat is those auditorium seats in the same format for quite a few years now. They haven't been moved for quite a long time, and it's funny how buildings which claim to have extraordinary flexibility sometimes turn out to be really quite rigid. And the fact is that with the money available erm the Gardener Centre I should think it's not possible to use it in the kind of flexible way in which it was planned in the first years. We've talked a lot about the Gardener Centre, but of course the university is a much bigger place than just the Gardener Centre. What sort of contact do you have with other members of the university or other departments in the university? Well as an association, we naturally get ourselves involved with many other aspects of the university activities in that erm both the students are applicants of ours and come and talk to us about projects which they may like to see emerge, and other departments of the university, the music department etc., sometimes find that our knowledge of the area, or certain aspects of some of the schemes that we're operating, coincide with what they're trying to do and it turns out to be that campuses like this are often useful places for residencies and artists will come and take up residency in a university for a period of time, and that's often been exploited by the Association. And of course I suppose there are many members of the university who serve on your panels and committees and activities? Yes, there's always been a genuine interest in the Arts Association as a point where the university, those people involved in the university, can hear about what's taking place in the arts and also participate in some aspects of the advisory panels. That's always been very useful to us. There are, of course, other universities in the region. There's the University of Kent and the University of Surrey. Do you have similar contacts with them? Yes, each of them is well represented in terms of erm members of the University showing an interest in the arts work in their area, and several of them have members erm who serve on our advisory panel, as indeed Sussex does. They don't all have the same erm facilities as Sussex, nor indeed the same tradition of town and gown relationships, but nevertheless within the university there are several groups of people wanting to develop ideas of literature festivals or performance arts events, which we try and encourage because erm we have very little money within the Arts Association and have to maximise whatever facilities and people that we can lay our hands on. My last question is more of a personal one. How are you enjoying being director of this Association? Well I'm enjoying it myself very much indeed. I like the region a great deal and erm am enjoying the stimulating atmosphere which I've come into. I'm very well aware that the director before me built a very stable platform on which we can operate, and that we're lucky to have a region that's so rich in talent, erm in artistic talent, and in enthusiasm. erm I'm very much aware that the challenges are ahead of us, both in terms of erm dealing with a difficult financial situation, which has been the pattern now for three or four years, but also in entering certain fields and approaches to arts activity that perhaps require more of the central staff than previously. If we're going to go in and make a positive impact in certain parts of the region, erm then both my staff and myself and our colleagues who are working in the arts in the region have got to pull even harder together to make sure that we can make the partnership between us bureaucrats and the artist really be as effective as possible for the broadest range of the community. Well, thank you very much, Chris. Next week we shall be talking to another member of the outside community about their view of the university and Hello. Continuing our series on computing, this week we move from the more technical aspects of their working to consider ways in which they affect our routine and everyday lives. A couple of years ago I had a fascinating conversation with Professor Max Clues on just this subject. Max was Professor of Artificial Intelligence in the university, but sadly, since the recording was made, has died. However, what he had to say is still thoroughly relevant today. When I was talking to him I asked him what changes he saw taking place in the computing world. Well, I think we all know the answer to that — it's called micros — chips with everything. And we're seeing a situation in which computers are now moving out of the sort of Delphic Oracle there where they were behind glass doors and you could go and look at them and there were huge whirring wheels and whatnot. They are moving out onto people's desks and almost into Woolworths. I think Currys are now into the micro marketing game and that, I think, says a lot about availability. What that means is that there's a whole new way of thinking about what sorts of tasks can people actually use computers to do so the offices of the future may well have no typewriters, but just micro computers tied into an information system, and that presents, I think, great problems for people. Yes, I think people think of computers as being devices that calculate things essentially. You're saying that this is not necessarily the case. Certainly not, and I think that that's one of the things that causes people to be to switch off when you mention computers and think ‘oh, I can't understand that’ because their experience at school perhaps was that they couldn't understand mathematics anyway. The important thing to recognize, really, is that anyone can program a computer, and I do mean program it. erm we have developed over in the university, in the arts area especially, for arts undergraduates who don't have mathematical or scientific training, ways of giving them erm training in computer programming, and they come out really both full of fun about it and with a lot more confidence than they could possibly have imagined they would have when they began. So you don't need a degree in mathematics to run a computer? No, I think it's well known, actually, amongst the computing fraternity, that the best programmers are actually housewives, because basically it's a question of housekeeping. Well that's very impressive and encouraging obviously to any housewives who may be listening. But it seems to me this is an absolute revolution. I mean you're talking about having computers in the offices and perhaps in the home, now this must have great impact on the future education needs of people who are going to use these devices, surely? Yes, that's quite right. erm I saw in the newspaper, as I am sure you probably did, last week that the government has just devoted, I think, nine million pounds over the next few years to develop curricula and methods of training teachers in schools, and I think it's tremendously important that that doesn't become merely a bit more science of one form or another. One of the things that we need to be clear about is that erm computers are not unlike us. In many ways they have processes that are like us. For example, the basic idea, one might say, is that computers follow procedures. Now in an office, or in doing some work in a school, you follow a procedure. The teacher tells you what to do, or the manager tells you what he wants done, and it's logical and it involves manipulating information, bringing files together, bringing tax together, working it all out, and it's not calculation _ you're manipulating information. Now, if you can be reasonably precise, erm careful, about what the procedure to be followed is, you've just written a program. Now in fact what that means for me is that actually we're all programmers — we always have been — but we haven't been used to explaining it in quite the way that computers need us to explain it, and of course that goes back to this question of understanding English that we were talking about last time. So it's really a question of improving English as a language, rather than mathematics or algebra. Yes, I think that the crucial thing that's emerging, especially from the area of artificial intelligence, is that we're beginning to understand that what the name of the game is getting people to express their intentions, and for a long time we've been, as it were, stuck in languages that don't really help you to do that and we're really beginning to understand now that erm what people are doing when they program indeed, I mean as it were the ace programmers, are expressing their intention for whatever's to be done in the task the computer's to perform clearly. And we all know people who are actually very good at telling you how to do something. They are just very good at communicating their intentions. And if we look at it from that standpoint I think we can begin to see, perhaps, that actually we're all programmers, some of us less clear about it than others. One of the exciting things about the erm introduction of this into schools is that we might actually begin to get, from a very early age, erm children clear about that the need to communicate their intentions, and that that's what actually that's what mathematics and similar formal systems has always been about. Even I mean the the English teacher will know that, that what he's trying to do is to get a student to write his intentions clearly, to make his points clearly, to have a goal in writing his essay, what is it he's trying to say. All those things are absolutely clear to us. We haven't, I think, hitherto seen that they're really a part of programming. I see. Do you think that there will be a great development in perhaps new subjects in schools? I know that they do have computer science courses at both O level and A level, do you think these will be the basis of the future courses, or are we looking for an entirely new development, something quite new and quite different, that stands as a subject in his own right? I think so. I remember a colleague of mine, who actually wasn't erm terribly enamoured of computers, who had a book called ‘Thinking Goes to School’ I think. Now in his case he was erm thinking mostly of toys and puzzles and problems to be done in the classroom. I think that the computer presents exactly that challenge and amongst the sorts of things I'm thinking of is that erm it's one thing to play with a computer toy, a game of some sort — we've all seen them in the bar and elsewhere — it's another thing entirely to devise your own game, to program your own rules in and then to bring your friend along and have them challenge it. Now in order to do that, you've really got to understand what a game is erm how you organise, for example, looking at the board, if it is a board game; how you're going to represent that in a program. Now these are very challenging ideas. They are not actually all that difficult, as we've been finding in the teaching that we've been doing where indeed we have students who take a ten week course, sort of once a week, and by about week six they're already beginning to do that, they're beginning to work out their own problems erm puzzles and games and little language understanding programs and that's commonplace, actually. That was done as long ago as ten years ago in America. Twelve year olds were doing that kind of task on a computer. What's happened is, of course, that as the costs have fallen and the micros have come in through the door so they're very much smaller, erm it all becomes possible for the whole of society and not for a tiny elite. I think that the use of the word ‘language’ can be a little bit confusing to some people that have never actually done any computing. erm perhaps you could expand on this a little bit. We think of the spoken language, the written language, what in practice do you mean by ‘language’, is it an instruction you type on a keyboard, or what in terms of a computer? Well at the moment that's true. At the moment erm the way that we use computers is, of course, to use a keyboard, but I was talking to some people today who've now developed and you can buy it, erm a system on which you can write on what you want to say, so that as long as you print fairly clearly you don't have to learn any new typing skills. The question that's behind that, however, of course, is what is the language itself, what are the words; are they English words, or are they some other kind of words? Well increasingly, of course, they are English words and that's because, increasingly, we are getting closer and closer to erm expressing intention, and the thing about language, you see, is that it was designed by nature to be a vehicle for intention, and that's what we all secretly know, but in fact we've never been helped to think about it. One of the things I again would like to see in schools is that sort of approach, which brings out what language is really about, and I think that that's an exciting and possibly quite unexpected outcome of bringing computers into schools, but it will require that we don't simply think of it as being ‘oh, let's have a micro in the science lab’; it is going to be as the government seems to recognise, a step involving curriculum design, involving helping teachers _ really, really helping them in a strongly supportive way — to do something which is, I would say, revolutionary. So, if it is a revolution, and I have no doubt it is, how do we stand in this country compared with the United States, Europe, Japan, perhaps Russia. Are we do we stand any chance of being in the forefront of this revolution? Oh, that's a difficult one to answer, isn't it? erm I think that we're unique in this country, possibly, especially Sussex and one or two other places, in having erm a mixture of artificial intelligence, psychology, erm microelectronics. I'm thinking actually of here in the university itself, we've got three different groups in those areas that are now collaborating, and I think we've got a good chance of _ especially in the area of schools curricula — but also in the area, I think, of helping business people, and I'm thinking now of senior management, who might be your and my age, Brian, for whom computers didn't exist when we went through university or college, erm who've probably more or less given up any hope of understanding it and understanding the computer boffins who have taken over — almost taken over the company at times, one suspects. What I'd like to do is to help them to see that they don't need to give up on the computer, that they can actually be the master of it, although of course I don't I'm not suggesting that they become programmers — that would be to abdicate their function in another way — but certainly they can understand it, and I think of course it keeps coming back to this issue over and over again, an issue about education. What we've got is a tremendous gap in what people need to know in society, in all areas of society, to handle this computer revolution. So a big issue about whether how well we're placed with regard to America and Japan and so on is how well placed are we to bring about this educational step, and I think we're probably about as well placed as anybody else, certainly we haven't made some of the mistakes that other people have made, we haven't had a very big investment in what's often called computer assisted instruction, which I think is rather limited. I think it's much more important that we instruct the computer and not have the computer instruct us. If we can learn to be programmers _ indeed we already are — but if we can learn to instruct the computer, then we'll retain our dignity and our responsibility in matters rather than really abdicating it in ways that I don't myself favour. So what you're really saying is that the computers of the kind you're describing are for the ordinary person. They're for the child in school; they're for the housewife; they're for the businessman of the future, and an ordinary competent businessman has the capability and the possibility of actually learning how these devices work and using them, rather than just leaving it to the boffin, the scientist, the computer expert. That's right, and until he does that, until he does, as it were, grasp the mettle and begin to express his purposes, his procedures, directly to the computer, he will always be at the risk that what gets expressed is not what he quite wanted, just a little bit different, he and he alone, is the person who knows what the company purposes are. I mean otherwise he shouldn't be the Managing Director, he shouldn't be the Chairman of the Board. So it gets back to a question of confidence again? That's right, and I think that erm, yes, there's a notion that I find useful in talking to students that we all have a comfort zone, there are all things that we know about, that we know how to do and if anything comes up — I mean in business it might be accountancy, we don't all know how to handle figures, and so that's an area that we've hived off in that area and we all know that when we do that we are, as it were, giving up a bit; we're saying ‘well, I can't manage I just don't have I can't do that, it's not for me’. Now confidence is, I think the key to success. Everyone knows that, it goes back a long way. erm what we don't know, perhaps, is how to create confidence is what is obviously a technological revolution, an expanding area, something entirely new. At the university here we have got two or three groups in which we do know how to do that and especially the work that I'm associated with, again the arts undergraduates, we have developed over a period now of something like six years, ways of giving them confidence, and it's amazing to see what happens. When you give them confidence they suddenly take off. I mean I am constantly being confronted with students who do things that I don't actually understand, and they're my own students, and actually that's quite nice, I like that. And this confidence is available for everyone and hopefully will be in the future — the housewife, the businessman and so forth? Yes, and we at the university are, I think, really I say ‘I think’, my own purpose here at the university is to export what we've got as quickly as we can to the local community, and indeed nationally too. Thank you very much, Max. That's all that we have time for today. Next week I shall be talking with Peter Stone about how computers are Hello. Do you have young children? I was recently talking to the mother of a four year old boy about his progress at learning his letters, when I realized just how responsible and vulnerable she felt about his lack of progress, and that started me thinking about the educational process and the pressures that we put on ourselves and our children to succeed. Should children be encouraged to learn before they go to school? What role can parents play once their children are in class? And do we take ourselves and our responsibilities so seriously that our worries are transmitted to our offspring? I recently put some of these questions to Joanna Turner, who's a psychologist who's special interest is the development of young children. I started by asking her what stage she thought formal education should commence. As you know, at the moment it starts at five, but perhaps, ideally, it could start younger, but obviously there are financial considerations as well. Perhaps development of nursery education on a much greater scale, bigger scale than has hitherto been the case Well, be careful what you're committing me to saying. I mean you asked me about formal education, and immediately we're talking about nursery education. Now I don't want, necessarily, to equate the two of them. I do think some formal education could start sooner, but I wouldn't want you or the listeners to think that nursery education and formal education are one and the same. What is the difference, basically? Well I think one of the advantages of a nursery schooling is certainly a considerable amount of social interaction for the children, which very often they won't be obtaining, either if they're living in high rise flats, or at the other end of the social spectrum if they're parents are living in large houses with large gardens and no other children within the vicinity. So I think it has a social function, as well as a formal educational function. Do you think that the social function comes before the formal function, or do you think they both go together? I think it would depend on the child. For some children they are more socially deprived, and yet they may be getting considerable ‘education’ in inverted commas within their home environment. For other children they probably are getting enough social interaction, there may be plenty of children around, but educationally, in terms of the sort of basics for education they may be extremely deprived. I think there are many functions that it serves. Do children develop at roughly the same rate? Can you say that all three year olds are roughly the same? You can say that three year olds are more like other three year olds than, say, thirty year olds would be like other thirty year olds, and the younger the child the more true that is, so that would be much more true at age a year, assuming that there aren't any physical defects or mental defects, than say at three. So by three, yes, there is some variation, but they are certainly there is less variation than you would get at the end of the secondary school or university. And are there quite specific stages that one can recognise perhaps as a developmental psychologist which take place at roughly particular times in a child's development? Very broadly. Could you give me some idea of what these might be in the very early years perhaps? Perhaps I could, but whether I should is a different point. I feel that once parents begin to become too aware of norms, they worry, and therefore unless a child is grossly out of sync, if you like, with their peers, I wouldn't say it would matter, but yes, one would expect a three year old to be talking at one extreme. If there is no speech by three, indeed if there is no speech earlier than that, it might be very important to check that the child is not deaf. I think also you would expect children who are really quite young, well before the first year, to be showing social interest in other adults around, and if they're not it might be worth checking that there isn't some problem with the child. But generally speaking I'm not very happy about norms. Oh well we won't press you on that particular point then. There's been a lot of publicity recently about parents teaching their own children, rather formal things. There have been one or two stories about youngsters who've become reached a very high level in mathematics, for example. Are you in favour of parents teaching their own children? Well can I come to that in a minute, because you said something I'd like to pick up. You said the child may not be developing in the way the parent expects the child to develop, and I think that it's very important for parents to check out their expectations. If they are expecting something that they haven't got, it may well be that their expectation is wrong. What is important is the child that they have in front of them, and to learn to understand that child. It's not it's brother or sister, or their brother or sister, it is unique, and it's pattern of development, although of course it will be broadly similar to other children, exactly like no other child, and in a sense I would feel that the parental job is to judge very carefully the needs and the developmental cycle of their own child, and then stimulate to the extent that that child needs. Now having said that, of course, I've almost answered the other question, that I just do not believe there are any rules. I mean maybe you're thinking of the sort of publicized cases of a nine year old, I believe it was, who's got A levels in mathematics. I would not want to say that I could criticise that parent, because I don't know the background of it. I would very much hope that other parents would not feel that they ought to be doing to the same thing, unless their circumstances were very similar. If you have a child who appears to show a talent at one thing, then of course it's natural to let the child do what it enjoys doing, but that might be the very moment for saying well what is this child not talented at and ensuring that this child gets some experience of the kind of world that it not part of its own talents, so I would feel, from my own point of view and as a psychologist, that if you have a child who is very talented in mathematics, then fine, it's going to be quite good at mathematics one would assume, now's the time to say well is it as equally talented in music? Are there other things that could develop? Has it got erm a wide social relationship with other children? So that at the end of the day one has a much more rounded individual with of course specific talents. I'm not for holding back children. I think parental anxieties are something with which one must have great sympathy because very often the anxiety is not so much an anxiety about the child, it's an anxiety about the parent. If they have had difficulty in school they will worry that their child is having difficulty in school. Now of course it may be that the child has caught a worry about schooling from the parent, but I think that's the first thing to sort out — is this really a problem in the child, or is it a problem in the parent's mind? And secondly, I mean obviously parents are more worried if they feel that their child is not doing as well as somebody else's child, and we're back to this question of expectation again — where did they get the expectation that this other child is, as it were, some sort of norm that they ought to be living up to , and parents should talk to teachers and to other people who know their child and have got experience of their child as against other children to find out really whether their worries are truly grounded, or whether they are just groundless. I think to come back to an earlier question of what should you teach them, and what is normal, is that ideally a child wants to grow up in an environment where his or her parents enjoy here, where the relationship is enjoyable on both sides and not shot through with anxiety about how well this child is developing, providing the development is within the normal range. If the child has a special skill or the parent has a special interest and they enjoy together exchanging this skill or interest, like teaching a child to swim very young, teaching it to play or listen to music, or play very simple rhythmic sounds, then as long as it is done within a relationship that is, above all, a loving relationship, great. But if it's done as a way of accelerating the child's development, in order, as it were, to give it the edge over its peers, that doesn't seem to me to suggest a relationship in which parent and child are enjoying each other ; it is much more a relationship in which the child is being prepared for competition with its peers and this, I feel, probably is going to turn out badly, because almost inevitably the child will not reach the levels that the parent has build up in fantasy in its own mind. How do you feel about parents teaching children how to read? I think it comes to the same thing. If the parent feels they know a system that they have heard or read is successful, and if they try it out on the child and the child obviously enjoys it, if it becomes part of a game, then I can't see any harm in it, but I think the parent has to be scrupulously honest as to whether the child is enjoying it. If there's any hint that the child isn't enjoying it then I don't think it should happen. If parents really want to help their children, with reading specifically, I feel that Margaret Donaldson, who is and educational psychologist in Edinburgh, is correct when she points out that one of the greatest difficulties children have when they go to school is that many of them don't understand what kind of activity reading is. For instance, they don't understand, as she quotes in her book, what somebody is doing when they're reading a newspaper, or what it means when the postman looks at a envelope. Now if parents, through playing games with their children that are based on words, could alert the child to the fact that print is a convention and that we can translate print into reality, obviously not as abstract as that, but just get the child used to knowing what print is, knowing what reading is, so that perhaps when they go to school they may well know this is a skill that they don't have, like they don't know, perhaps, how to ride a bike, they may not know how to swim, they certainly don't know how to drive a car, but they do know what sort of a thing driving a car is. In that way, I think they'd be much more prepared for learning the skill than if they go completely unprepared and see children looking at books and saying things and it makes no sense to them. My last question is is really again about making children do things, as opposed to encouraging or helping them to do things. You say that so far as you're concerned, it's all right for children to learn if in fact they're enjoying it and if in fact they want to and they're not being coerced. Surely that makes the transition between home and school a rather traumatic one? Having worked and been around the Brighton first schools for many years, I would very much hope that the transition is not traumatic. Certainly, the most of the infant teachers I know take great pains to make sure that it is not traumatic and that the move from home to school is as easy as possible. Now having said that, often the trauma, which goes back to my original remark, is the sheer number of children, the sort of social impact that a reception class can have. Now if a parent can have introduced the child via nursery school to that amount of other children, then I think there should be very little trauma, but that isn't to say that as the child gets older they don't have to do things. But if a child has to do something because they can understand the end a which they're aiming, in the way that a footballer has to train, or a boxer has to train, then it becomes easier to do the equivalent of training. One of the difficulties is that the end state is so far removed from the average child that it is very difficult for them to see why they have to learn to read, but if they can realize that if they learn to read in those houses where they have it they'll be able to read the Radio Times and know what the television programmes are, that at least is motivating. I mean reading as to be put in a context and a context that is, in fact, enjoyable to the child, not something that just happens at school that they have to do, hence one they go to school the value of parents hearing the children read, because then the parent is also involved and one doesn't get this split between home and school. Well thank you very much, Jo. Next week we're going to look at another facet of education — should girls be treated in school any differently from boys? Dorothy Jerome and Carol Dyhouse will be providing some of the answers. Hello. This is the second programme in a short series in which we're taking a look at trends in science and engineering, particularly in the way that subjects are taught and opportunities for subsequent employment. Today it's the turn of chemistry, and I have with me Ken Sedden, who's a lecturer in chemistry at the university. Ken, the chemistry I did at school was full of test tubes and horrid smells, has it changed very much? Not in the slightest. The song may have changed, but the smell remains the same . And do children really do the same chemistry that I did twenty years ago? No, I think we understand the subject a little better now and therefore the theory has changed, but some of the practical remains very similar. The way we interpret it changes with time. It always used to be the case that one never did chemistry until the secondary school level. Has it gone further back into the primary schools? Not that I know of. Chemistry is very much an advanced subject. You need to have certain groundings in physics before you can even begin to appreciate chemistry. Now I'm interested in you saying that chemistry is really physics. Is that really the case? Now, I didn't say that at all. That's sounds like a physicist's interpretation of what a chemist is saying . Physics, on the contrary, depends very much on chemistry, as chemistry depends on physics. As you well know, there are certain basic rules which govern both subjects. To understand chemistry at all you've got to have some idea of optics, for example, because you're actually looking at the reactions happening and you've got to appreciate what you see. In the chemistry I did you seem to me to be terribly empirical, you had an inorganic substance and you had to learn absolute by heart what it did if you put it in water and you heated it and you did this that and the other. Is that the same, or is there more in underlying, understanding and theory this time. There is underlying, understanding and theory to this, but of course if you want to read French literature, you've got to learn the vocabulary; if you want to do chemistry you've got to know the elements and what order they come in, and there's always a certain amount of learning with any subject. If you do physics I'm sure you've got to learn the laws of Newton. And are there any more elements that have been discovered, for example? There are some being found, but not stable ones erm we know all the elements which are going to be stable on the planet earth as we know it. The ones that are being found are the very, very heavy ones which have very short lifetimes? Extremely short. I mean so short that it would be difficult to conceive of. We're not used to thinking in those terms. Now you, I understand, are an inorganic chemist. That's right. Now what can possibly be new in inorganic chemistry? . I mean surely that is a subject that's been around for a hundred years? It has certainly been around for a hundred years, and it is probably the most vital of aspect of life as we know it today. Almost anything that is going to be done in the future concerned with energy storage, energy conversion erm any new technology, is based on inorganic chemistry. The whole of the microchip industry for making computers is based on the chemistry of silicon. It's difficult to imagine a more modern field of endeavour than the microtechnology involved with microcomputers, yet that is based upon inorganic chemistry. Now you mentioned the importance of inorganic chemistry in energy conversion. Could you give me an example of that? Yes, well the whole of the nuclear power industry, for example, is based on uranium, plutonium. Inorganic chemistry, as you know, is a study of the chemistry of all the elements except carbon. The whole of our modern energy industry is based, therefore, round inorganic chemistry, and there's a lot of new inorganic chemistry to be discovered. There's another example, I believe, and that is that there are schemes whereby water can be split up into its components, hydrogen and oxygen, and hydrogen actually used as a fuel in various ways. Absolutely. Of course this is something for the future, the whole concept of hydrogen economy is well developed. When the economics become right, when the petrol dries up, then the possibly of moving over from a gas based, petrol based, economy to hydrogen economy is a very real one, and of course again this is an exciting branch of inorganic chemistry which many people are looking at. Where would you get the energy to actually split the water into hydrogen and oxygen? From the sunlight, and that's where the inorganic chemistry comes in. Inorganic compounds are used to absorb the sunlight and then pass it on to water. They act as a sort of relay system. What a sort of catalyst? Exactly, exactly. What would you do with the hydrogen when you've got it? Hydrogen you can think of very much as a fuel in the manner of north sea gas and it's got a high calorific value, it burns well and, despite rumours, it's actually a very safe fuel as well. And could you use hydrogen to run cars, for example? Absolutely. There are prototype cars running off hydrogen, as well prototype aeroplanes. And would, in fact, hydrogen have any advantages over conventional hydrocarbons as a fuel? The advantage of changing to hydrogen would be an economic advantage. Once you've got a system based on a particular form of fuel, such as petrol or gas, there has to be strong incentive to change it if it works well. The incentive would be purely economic. Once the change has been made, then many advantages, of course, would be found for hydrogen economy. And how far are we off such a possibility? With the price of oil falling, then probably a long way. As soon as the price of oil starts to go up again, then I'm sure that it would be looked at in a far more serious manner. Well, perhaps so much for inorganic chemistry erm there's a whole subject of organic chemistry. Absolutely. Now, what's happening in organic chemistry at the moment? Well, you're sitting looking very smart here in a suit, which I suspect is made out of organic fibres and the tie, which I suspect is made out or artificial organic fibres, and the shirt looks remarkably artificial too. In other words, most people are now walking around wearing organic chemicals. A lot of the food they eat isn't natural food, but in fact is synthetic organic food. The whole medical profession is based on drugs, and the drugs are all made artificially. All this is organic chemistry again. So, again, organic chemistry is a booming industry, of which many, many people are being employed. And have there been any specific breakthroughs in organic chemistry you can put your fingers on in recent years? There are no outstanding flashes in organic chemistry, things move step by step, and the way they've moved over the past thirty or forty years is quite apparent if anybody looks round their home. The number of pollums , plastics, medicines,has just been quite fantastic, but not the sudden flash of light, but the slow progress of a lot of people working together. You mentioned just now about artificial foods, if I can put it that way. Right. There's a lot of people who are very concerned about this. They're part of a back-to-nature campaign, and I suppose nature is equally organic in a way Absolutely. except it's as you find it, rather than being produced artificially. Right. Do you have any thoughts as to whether it's a good or a bad thing that food is produced artificially, as it were? If we look to the future, then it's going to be absolutely essential that food be produced artificially, because the planet isn't going to be able to support the population which it's going to have on it. There are good points and bad points about artificial food production, but then there's good points and bad points about natural food production too. Used sensibly and carefully then I'm all in favour of artificial food production. And are you in favour of, for example , using artificial fertilizers on to grow crops? Absolutely. I mean there's no question that that is the best way to do it. Do you think there is not a danger in going too far too fast in developing these chemical compounds? People are often worried about spraying crops, for example. And quite rightly so too, but remember there's a natural compound that's simply been synthesised in nature. All we would like to do in the lab is make that same compound in a different way, and many of the compounds which are used are the same as those found in nature, the only difference is they've been prepared in a test tube instead of being prepared in a plant. But isn't nature a very delicate balance between various forces and various processes, and by people, not like yourself, but perhaps more industrially based people producing vast quantities of a given compound and spreading it almost indiscriminately, couldn't that erm seriously upset the balance of nature in a particular resource? Absolutely, and that's whey we've got international agencies looking at exactly these things. But how do you actually know, without a great deal of investigation and a great deal of control? Aren't there enormous commercial pressures to use these compounds? There will be, certainly, and it's necessary that there be pressures to keep things under control. But a great deal of research and money needs to be invested when a new product and a completely new chemical comes on the market, and there's been many examples in the past of things being released. I mean the famous case of the Thalidomide erm is obviously in everybody's mind. Yes, of course, that's a very startling example of a drug which wasn't properly checked through before it was used on a mass basis. Do you see any future in more careful controls on drugs, particularly drugs used to cure human ailments? There has to always be a control and that control will necessarily involve experiments on animals and the animal pressure groups are doing more harm than they can ever conceivably imagine by trying to control experiments on animals, because if they don't experiment on animals a human somewhere is going to die. What about experiments on humans? Do you think these are allowable, as it were, from a moral point of view? There always, with a new product, has to be the first experiment on a human, otherwise a new drug wouldn't come on the market. If people are made aware of the risks and volunteer, then that's seems to be their own free choice, and if that is what they wish to do, then that it seen to be a perfectly fair about going of course it would be completely immoral to test a drug on somebody who wasn't aware of what was going on. mhm Where do you see the frontiers of chemistry at the moment? What's happening? The frontiers of chemistry lie in many directions erm the frontiers of chemistry, of course, meet the frontiers of physics and the frontiers of biology. The energy crisis which we're in at the moment, and which will, although it's temporarily abating if we judge the prices on the oil market, will not go away, is one of the most important areas in which chemistry can contribute. At the moment our whole economy is based on natural found hydrocarbons — oil, petrol — as these begin to run out, then we've got to find a way of making these or substitutes for them, and this is what chemistry is all about, making new compounds or making old compounds in new ways. So the whole of the planet's energy existence depends upon research chemistry. There are advances, as we've already talked about, in the microelectronics industry, because as computers become smaller and smaller, then they approach molecular dimensions and gain the realm of molecular reactions is the realm of chemistry, so physics and chemistry there intertwine absolutely inescapably. In bio-chemistry drug design, using enzymes to produce, for example, methanol or efanol — huge advances again going on here. But chemistry, remember, is the science of everything around you and you can't stop, therefore, advances in that field. It's so fundamentally important. Do you see chemistry as being almost the centre of science? Well I, naturally, being a chemist , would say it's the centre of science, but quite seriously it is an extremely important area. Chemistry and physics together are an unbeatable combination. As a chemist, is there anything that you would really like to know, something you'd really like to discover, something that if you knew you could feel you could do a whole lot more chemistry? There's no end to the number of things which any chemist would like to know. I think from my own personal preference I would very much like to have an understanding of what happens at the interface between solids and liquids, because this affects so many different branches of chemistry and physics _ the understanding of what happens at interfaces will govern the understanding of what makes things stick together, what makes catalysis occur, the nature of rocks even. It all boils down to interfaces, and I think that it is one of the more difficult areas of chemistry to work in and there's a lot of room for advancement there. Lastly, is chemistry a good subject for a school child to think of going into? It, in the nineteen eighties and nineteen nineties, must be one of the best subjects they could ever conceive of going into because the whole of the future of modern civilization depends on chemistry. So you think there'll actually be jobs for chemists in the future. Absolutely. No question. And what's the best training for a chemist? The best training for a chemist is at school to take maths, physics and chemistry. If his leaning is towards the physical side, or his leaning towards to biological side, to take chemistry, biology and physics, to take those subjects in the sixth form at A level, and then come straight to university and develop his inclinations in the way that he is here to do. Well thank you very much, Ken. That's all that we have time for today. Next week I shall be talking about physics, and I shall be asking similar questions to Professor Ken Smith. Until next week then. Hello. A few years ago Flanders and Swan wrote a patriotic song for this country. It went ‘the English, the English, the English are best, I don't give you tuppence for all of the rest’. In a few short verses not only did that celebrated pair dispose of our continental neighbours, but they also made it clear that the Irish, the Scots and the Welsh were suspect too. That, of course, is not playing the game. In fact it's quite positively going too far. I have with me Professor Geoffrey Best, who I hope will help me do the decent thing by our partners. Geoffrey, discussions about the Common Market, for example, tend to be carried out using rational arguments based on economics and legal principles, but don't you think that at the deepest level international relations depend on national characteristics? Of course they do, and no treaty between two countries, or between one country and a group of others can hold together, unless in those countries there's a general disposition to maintain the treaty and play fair by it. Take us and Europe now, isn't it odd that, after two world wars, in which our men who died, our nations sacrificed themselves in fighting what was thought to be the great German danger, we now find ourselves at least as much hostile to our allies in both of those wars — the French — as we do to the Germans, and if one could measure this sort of thing it might well be that in the British public at large you would find more sympathy towards the Germans than the French. Now I offer that as a little illustration of the difficulties of saying that there are deep national dispositions between one nation and another, which exist inside in some sort of permanent, rock-like way. And presumably the reasons for these suspicions and degrees of mistrust lie in history? I mean, for example, the French, my impression is that we actually offended De Gaulle quite considerably during the war in terms of his pride as a Frenchman Oh yes. and in a sense he remembered this post-war and, being very instrumental in post-war political affairs, erm regarded the English with some degree of suspicion. Is that right? Certainly, but then De Gaulle was only the most recent of a line of French national leaders, going back at least as far as Joan of Arc, who have seen in the English, through most of the centuries, their main enemy, whereas of course we didn't come across Germany internationally at all until within the last ninety years. I believe that they certainly exist because history has given to each contemporary people a cast of mind, a set of habits and attitudes in their conduct of their own affairs, in the state of their minds, in their attitudes towards others, which make them individual and peculiar. I think history has done this, and by history I mean everything which has worked through history to produce that result — geography, climate, agriculture, economics. I bundle all that together under history. When national characteristics were talked about a hundred years ago, in the great days of Darwinism and eugenics and so on, it was a pseudo-scientific talk erm implying that there was some blood or racial characteristics which marked one people off from another, and this lay at the bottom of all that talk about Anglo-Saxon racial superiority, which erm led plenty of people in this country to suppose that erm the white peoples of Northern Europe and North America had some characteristics which made them superior to coloured people, and all kind of bogus scientific arguments followed from that. Well by now it's perfectly clear that the suggestion that these characteristics rest in the blood and in race is wrong, but there remains this enormous field of characteristic garnered from a long historical process. The British have been alone on their island for over a thousand years, without successful invasion. That fact, and the fact of being in the island, separated from the land wars which every other country in Europe has had to cope with, have produced in the British by now a different state of mind about politics, about the state, about the military, and about foreigners. In what way to they differ? Well, if you're a Frenchman or a German, a Swede, an Italian, anyone in the Balkans, your culture has been created over centuries of invasions or struggles to resist invasion, it's as simple as that. World War two was only a recent example of what had been an historical constant. Every other nation on the continent got overrun by the axis powers in World War two, as nations had been overrun, or partly overrun, in wars for centuries past. Once again, the British were not. In Britain the defence of the country has been left for centuries to a Navy which did its work out of sight. The most that the British knew about armies was that intermittently over four or five centuries they got together in a sort of militia or Home Guard in case the enemy arrived, and the necessity of a state to run the affairs of the country for the country's salvation, was never so present to the British mind as it always has been to the minds of most continental people. So that's the difference perhaps at the political and miliary level, what are the differences perhaps at a more social level? Ah well, when one thinks one sees these differences, and I believe that they are real. Let's take Germany for a start. After World War two, a lot of people hoped that the we'll call them the less agreeable characteristics of the German mind, would be changed by the traumatic experiences of the second total defeat in twenty years, physical destruction, national humiliation, embarrassment at having been made the collaborators of nazism and so on. If anything should have shaken up a national psyche for the Germans it was World War two and what it did to them. Have those things changed? I used to think they had done. When I heard reports of the changing physical shape of German women, that they were becoming a different breed of women we'd been told from the old, rather heavy, erm motherly plain sort of woman who characterised Germany womanhood before the Second World War, well now we read that their shape and their weight and so on corresponds much more to French or British and American norms. German young people recently have shown a more revolutionary and radical sort of behaviour than one would have dreamt possible in the old Germany, but in this morning's paper I read of the results of erm a public opinion poll recently conducted by the German government about neo-nazism in Germany, showing what seems to be a rather alarming quantity of surviving interest in sympathy for old nazism. I often hear from friends in the military business, because that's near my own sort of work, that the German part of NATO is the only really big and solid part of NATO, as if that military tradition has revived, found itself again. I cannot venture to say whether the shake-up which we thought World War two might have given to Germany has done it. The Continental idea of the Briton, which had a lot of truth in it, was that he was a phlegmatic, rather unemotional, certainly undemonstrative erm creature of a northern climate. The French elaborated a lot of wonderful nonsense in the nineteenth century about the climate pauses of the British character, they said that because we all lived in the fog we were incapable of clear and distinct ideas, a sort of bogus science that you as a scientist would see through more quickly than people like me. Well, Britain is the country which ought to have had the proletarian revolution before any other. Marx thought it ought to. I mean it was the firs industrial country. It never had it. There is something in the British political culture, and I call this a national characteristic once it gets deep into a culture, which has made British politics consistently less violent than others. It's not because there isn't class war in Britain, there's obviously a very great deal of class war, but it's a kind of cold class war which doesn't erupt into the violences which have characterised French, Italian, Russian, Balkan, Spanish politics. That links to a question I'd very much like to put to you, Geoffrey, and that is the British concept of doing the decent thing — I have the impression that that is almost the uniquely British concept. If you meet people from other countries, they understand what you mean if you say to do the legal thing, or the just thing, or the right thing, in certain ways, but it seems to me to be a slightly soggy, but nevertheless very important, British concept of doing the decent thing, which may be just, may be legal, may not be either of those two, but the British man has a very clear sense of what it entails. That's very important and very true. It's directly connected with the speculations I was just making about possible changes in the British character . I very much hope I'm wrong. Orwell, you remember, that great Englishman who knew so much about our national character and wrote about it, some of his best essays characterised decency as a British peculiarity. It's a rather vague term, as you say. It meant something like to do with fair play and here one sees the sport fixation of the British, perhaps, mixed up in its roots. It's something to do with gentlemanliness and the idea of the English gentleman, which has become a very influential one, not just in Britain, but it's been admired and copied in many other countries and this is an historical product. It's something to do with an extraordinary oddity in British history, compared to world history generally. Our production of an incorrupt public service. There are few indications that that marvellous high level of incorruptibility has been cracking a little bit, aren't there? But still I have no doubt at all it remains erm at the top of the international league and is much admired elsewhere. Only in a few countries in Northern Europe, ours among them, is an incorrupt public service normal. Are the British as bad and the French as good at sex as they claim to be? . I don't know. Now you're getting into national characteristics of a most particular and private kind. Certainly, the British attitude towards sex has excited a great deal of continental mirth for a long time, especially Latin mirth, I think. Think of all those comedies which run for years in London with titles like ‘No Sex Please, We're British’ and all that. There is some difference here. Is it not a British peculiarity, this combination of public prudery with extreme puriance, extreme interest in sex and devious at that, and which fills the newspapers whenever public events give them an opportunity. If we get into sexual behaviour, you'll have to ask Kinsey and his followers, not G. Best. And lastly, Geoffrey, is it fair to lump the English, the Scots, the Irish and the Welsh together in one compartment and call them British? I remember that song that you mentioned that you quoted at the beginning of the programme ‘Look into the Irish, the Welsh and the Scot, you'll find he's a stinker as likely as not’ is how it went on . It has been legitimate. The British Empire and Commonwealth — it meant British, because it was run jointly by people from each of those countries, and they all got something out of it. The Scots, in particular, got a hell of a lot out the Empire, proportionately the Scots had many more positions of influence and profit in the Empire than we did, and I think Scottish nationalism had it's economic roots in the last twenty/thirty years from a realization that the Empire's over, and that great outlet for Scottish energy, education and ambition was closed, therefore the Scots are shut up in the island as they used not to be. I was in Scotland for twelve years and was once congratulating myself and my friends a the University of Edinburgh on being, as I thought, so cosmopolitan. Here we were, Englishmen in Edinburgh, marvellous. People from all over the world in this great eighteenth century city, very cosmopolitan. ‘No it's not’, said a Scots Nationalist friend one day — very rude to me —‘it's not cosmopolitan, it's colonial’, and he had been looking at me and thinking ‘here's one of those damned Englishmen sponging on the Scots, making a good thing out of them’. The Scots and the Welsh and the Irish have clearly retained very strong national cultural characteristics, which have made it necessary for the student who wants to make accurate distinctions to say ‘British does mean something, and it's something to do with the Briton overseas’. In proportion as we have lost that overseas extension of our power, I think the national differences within the British Isles are bound to show more, because they've lost the great common ground of shared activity they used to have. Thank you very much, Geoffrey. Next week I shall be talking with Tony Nuttall about Shakespeare and the reasons why he's still regarded by many people as the greatest playwright of all time. Until next week, then, goodbye. Hello. In just under a month's time, Saturday June the fourteenth to be precise, the university will be holding its Silver Jubilee Open Day. On that occasion we hope that as many people as possible will take the opportunity to visit us. One of the features of that day will be a series of mini- lecturers on just about every conceivable subject, and during the next few Ideas In Action programmes I shall be talking to some of the lecturers about their topics, hopefully whetting your appetites sufficiently to want to join us on that day to hear more. John Hag is a lecturer in mathematics and a statistician. On the lighter side of his subject, he's made a study of gambling habits from a statistical view point, and during the Open Day he'll be giving a lecture entitled ‘Horse and Football Pools — Why you should Expect to Lose’. John, it sounds like a mugs' game to me. Why should people gamble if they're bound to lose? Well people are not bound to lose, because some people do finish up ahead, but most people should expect to lose for the simple reason that bookies have got to make a living somehow, and therefore the odds that they offer to entice people to go in are such as to expect the bookie to make a profit, but that doesn't mean to say that I am against the idea of people going in for gambling. I know that a very large number of people get a great deal of pleasure and fun out of gambling. Some people make a living out of it — I don't — and I've absolutely nothing against that. Let's have a look at the statistics of the matter. Maybe football pools would be a good starter here. Well football pools are a splendid started because recently somebody has won just over nine hundred thousand pounds, and it's interesting to note that he did this without exercising too much skill, as I'm sure he'd be the first to admit, because he enters the same numbers every week. I heard him talking on the radio, in which he said he'd tried several methods of winning on the football pools and in the end decided that the easiest thing to do was to put in the same numbers each week and so he was not exercising any skill in deciding whether one pair of teams were likely to enter into a score draw than another pair, but he just trusted that, say, number thirty seven would turn up as a score draw this week. mhm Does it make any sense to put in the same numbers _ does it add to the attraction from a statistical point of view, the likelihood to win? That's a very interesting questions, very difficult to answer shortly. Let me say why. There are fifty five different numbers at the moment on the football pools, and if people made an investigation of the frequency with which certain matches were selected, then they'd find that certain numbers were selected far more frequently and others selected far less frequently than other numbers. Now if you knew which numbers were selected less frequently than others, and you kept that information to yourself and you bet on those numbers that were selected less frequently, then unless there's any special reason why those numbers should produce fewer score draws than other numbers, you're giving yourself an advantage because on the weeks in which those numbers produce score draws there are fewer people who'll have them down as their numbers, and so there's more money around for those few people who have them down, including you, and so if you win, then you'd expect to win more money. So you are essentially assuming that there's no skill in football pools, that it's essentially a random process and sometimes some teams win and sometimes they don't, but there's no overall skill in it. It's a question of just choosing and what you are saying is that you can increase you payback, if I could put it that way, by choosing numbers which are for whatever reason less popular with some people, simply because the payback is larger on those days. Broadly that. I wouldn't go so far as to say there's no skill, because if you do have skill in identifying draws, then you'll increase your chances of winning by using your skill in identifying those draws, but how much you win depends very heavily on how many draws there are and how many other people choose those same draws. So if there's one draw, for example, or one match which looks as though it stands out as an absolutely surefire score draw, and everybody puts it down, and it comes up as a score draw, then nobody gains anything. You'd gain if you avoided putting that down as a score draw, especially of course if it didn't turn out to be a score draw. Is there any point in paying out a lot of money each week. I mean do you do better if you put in on a large stake as opposed to a small stake? The more money you invest, the greater your chances of wining, but when you enter football pools you should be quite aware that the total amount of stake money that's returned to you in prizes is rather small. Of every hundred pounds that's invested, round about forty pounds goes straight to the government in betting duty, round about thirty pounds goes to the football pools in expenses, commissions and profits, leaving round about thirty pounds to be returned in prizes, and so you can see that your rate of return on football pools is extremely small, but on the other hand a very large number of people do enter the football pools, and when they win they can win considerable sums of money and it can make absolute rational economic sense to go in for football pools because you are giving yourself a chance, no matter how small, of winning a sum of money that you wouldn't expect to come across in any other way of your life. And the sort of payback, as it were, if you are lucky, is rather larger than the payback, say, in horse racing? Ah, well. I mean given that you've got a, oh I don't know, a pound you're going to spend a week in gambling entertainment, if I could put it that way, you'd do better to go in for the pools, because if you did have a win you might have a big one, than to put it on a horse — am I right? Well, for a pound you have a much better chance of a big win on the football pools than on horses, but that's purely because of the odds offered. As I have said, if you invest a pound, then on sheer rational expectations you should expect on average to get back thirty pence. If you invested a pound on a horse, then the amount of money you'd expect to get back would depend on the odds that that horse was offered at, but if you confined yourself to horses that had a reasonable chance of winning, say, the sort of horses that tend to be offered at odds of, say, six or seven to one or better, then your average rate of return might be nearer ninety per cent than thirty per cent, so putting it one way betting a pound a week on the horses is a slower way of losing your money than betting a pound a week on football pools, but football pools gives you a much greater chance of winning an absolutely astonishing sum of money. Let's talk about horse racing, but before we do so, one last question about football pools and that is that some people have systems — they come up with a whole range of numbers and combinations of things — does that make any sense at all? It makes sense in what I said earlier about if you can identify numbers that are very seldom chosen, because when those numbers do come up then you're one of a small minority of winners and therefore your stake is larger. The system ought to be to attempt to guess, or find out by other means, the numbers that other people are less likely to put down. But of course this is self-defeating. If a large number of people start doing this and start second at each other, you don't know what land your in. Indeed . Right, horse racing. Now the rather depressing side of football pools as you only get twenty eight pounds in the hundred pounds back in an overall figure. Is that similarly true for horse racing, or does more money come back to the punter? It depends on your tactics in horse racing. If you decided that you're really only interested in long priced horses because you wanted win a large sum of money, so you only started looking at horses that were offered at fifty to one or longer odds than that, then if you look at the statistics then you'll find that the rate of return on such bets is even lower than the rate of return that we've quoted on football pools, but on the other hand if you look at horses which are offered, say, at odds-on or at very low odds, evens, two to one and things like that, then the rate of return is pretty close to a hundred per cent of your money. You're never going to get extremely rich by betting on horses at very low odds, unless you bet very large stakes, but on the other hand if you do bet frequently at horses that are two to one or two to one on, or something like that, then the statistics demonstrate that you can, over a season, just about break even, or you tend to just about break even. That's very interesting. What you're saying, essentially, is that if you just automatically put a bet on every outsider with long odds, say twenty to one or something, through an entire season, you're going to end up by losing money overall. You'll perhaps only say if you put out a thousand pounds, you'll possibly get what three hundred pounds back or something like that? Well, I don't have up-to-date figures because I haven't had the time to compile them, but I do know — I know it's twelve years ago, but — in nineteen seventy three if you look at horses that were offered at precisely fifty to one, then you'd find that there were five hundred and thirty horses offered at those odds during the whole of that season. Four of them won. Now you can work out for yourselves that if you'd been betting a pound on each of those horses you'd have finished up substantially down. On the other hand, if you went to the other end of the scale and in that same season you looked at all horses that were offered at precisely two to one on, then you'll find that there were twenty two horses which were offered at those odds and fifteen of them won. Now twenty two is not a large number, certainly not large enough for any statistical reliability to be placed on the result, but the fact remains that if you had bet on every single horse in that season at two to one on, and had bet the same amount, then you'd have finished ahead. So, your advice for the gambler that actually wants to make money is to go for horses which have very low odds against them? I wouldn't care to offer advice to gamblers, because I'm sure that people who bet on horses do things other than purely look at the odds the horse if offered at. What people are doing when they're gambling on horses is placing their assessment of the horse's chance of winning against the odds offered by the bookie. If the bookie appears to be offering unfavourable odds, then a gambler will tend not to bet, whereas if the bookie appears to have made a mistake by offering, say, odds of five to one on a horse that you think is a sure thing, then you'll place your money there. So you will exercise some skill. I'm taking here about pure, blind betting of someone who is not attempting to exercise any skill but is just looking at the odds offered by the bookies, and pointing out — and I'll have a table to demonstrate this in the talk I give at the Open Day — the way in which the rate of return on bets made in this way decreases steadily the longer the odds are offered. If horses are offered at very short odds, odds-on, then the statistics demonstrate that overall you could do quite well by betting on them. If they're offered at very long odds, the statistics demonstrate even more clearly although the odds are long they're not long enough to make the be fair. I mean those horses offered at fifty to one could have been offered at a hundred to one and still the bookies would have finished up ahead, but of course those people those few people who'd at fifty to one would have one twice as much. Finally, John, does it make a difference how popular a horse race is and how many horses there are in a race as to the odds against winning or the odds in favour of winning? Yes it does. Horses on which large sums of money are bet, such as the Grand National or the Derby, they are horses that the bookies pay a great deal of attention to and the overround that they calculate — they offer odds in such a way that you can't, by judiciously placing your bets, guarantee to win, and the overround is erm a thing that you can calculate which expresses, if you like, the average percentage in favour of the bookie on that race. Now this overround tends to be larger in fields with a large number of runners, and also tends to be larger in these popular races, so that at times when there's lots of money around the bookies, of course, and we expect them to do this, are very careful to make sure that the odds are well in their favour, because on these races where there's lots of money staked their risk is higher. John, I look forward to learning more about where to place my small bets on June the fourteenth. Thank you very much. Thank you. Next week we shall be taking a look at quite a different subject. Margaret Ducar will be talking about sexism in language and we'll be talking about how words used to refer to women and men reflect the inner quality between them, and also how the use of language by men and women in their everyday lives is related to the power differences between them. Join us next Sunday. Until then, goodbye. Hello. Continuing our serious on disasters, today we're going to talk about immunology — one of the ways in which the body defends itself against disease. I recently spoke to Professor John Newsome-Davis about this complex but interesting subject. I started by asking him ‘What is immunology?’? The body has a defence system that protects it against outside invaders. When a bacteria or a virus gets into us we have blood cells that attack the foreigner. These blood cells can release antibodies, which are specific for the target, home onto it like a guided missile, and kill it. And the immune system normally functions to protect us in this way, and is regulated in such a manner that it does not attack bits of oneself, but only legitimate foreign targets, and thereby is our ally. And what goes wrong? Well, perhaps all body systems occasionally go wrong, and this is true also of the immune system. There seems to be in some patients a failure of recognition of self, and as a consequence the immune system turns inwards and begins to attack selected targets within the body, and when this happens disease may arise. You gave examples in your talk about something called miocenia gravis, or M G as you call it. What is this? Miocenia gravis is a disease that has interested doctors, and laymen for that matter, for a very long time. It's a disease that's characterised by fatiguable muscle weakness. At the beginning of exercise strength is often good, and then it steadily declines with increasing effort and, in severe cases, patients are weak all the time; they can't see properly; they see double; their eyelids droop; they can't hold their heads up; they can't chew; they can't swallow; their arms and legs are weak; they can't peg out the clothes on the washing line; they can't walk upstairs, and in really severe cases they can't even breathe — unless they're supported on life support machines they would die. So at its worst it is a seriously and life-threatening paralysing disease, but in its minor forms not really a great deal of trouble, although upsetting enough for the patients who have it. Is this a new disease, something we've discovered recently, or has it been around for a long time? It's, I am sure, been around for a very long time. Indeed, there's an excellent description in the seventeenth century by the physician Thomas Willis of an honest and prudent woman, as he describes her, who erm, after much hasty speaking will become mute as a fish, and one might even fancifully look further back and wonder whether this fatiguable weakness wasn't something that erm that the Old Testament character, Samson, had. You may remember that Samson was a man of enormous strength and then, following a liaison with Delila and her cutting off his hair, he was reported to have become as weak as a child — and yet there was an occasion, which led to his death, when he brought the whole temple down by pulling the pillars against which he was propped. Now that kind of burst of strength would just be feasible for a miocenic. You might then wonder what the cutting of the hair had to do with it — well, one of the features of auto-immune diseases is that they cluster within individuals and sometimes within an individual's family, and the reasons for that are that the immune responses that we have we inherit with our genes. Now one of the auto-immune diseases that has been recognised is erm unusual baldness — it's called alopecia. It isn't the ordinary baldness that we're all familiar with and see around us, but this is a different kind. It may affect very young people and they may lose all their hair, and I have at least two patients with miocencia who are bald in this way, and this type of baldness is believed to be auto-immune, so I think that one could, perhaps, jokingly suggest that Samson may also have had alopecia and it wasn't Delila who cut off his hair, but his auto-antibodies that destroyed the hair making process, and all that makes poor Delila something of a victim of history and perhaps we should be springing to her defence. It's something that goes wrong at the nerve muscle junctions? In miocenia gravis that's true. The problem is at the junction between nerve and muscle. When we want to make a muscle contract the brain sends a nerve impulse through the spinal chord, into the peripheral nerves and out along those nerves to the muscle and each individual muscle fibre has a single junction, a nerve muscle junction, where the nerve makes contact with the muscle, and that is the site at which the stimulus leads to muscle contraction. The process of transmitting the signal from the nerve to the muscle can be described quite simply. There is, in fact, a narrow separation between the two and the way in which that separating bridge, if you like, is crossed is that the nerve terminal secrets a chemical. When a nerve impulse gets there this chemical is released by the nerve terminal, crosses the narrow cleft and reacts with special receptors on the muscle side of the junction, which, when they're stimulated by this chemical, lead to muscle contraction. Is the paralysis the same sort of paralysis you might get if you were bitten by a snake, for example? Well that's an interesting erm parallel really. There is, indeed, a snake — the Formosan banded krait — that gives you a type of instant miocencia, and the discovery that the venom of this animal contains a toxin that can do this has, indirectly, led to the elucidation of the mechanism behind miocenia gravis. It turns out that the component in the venom of this snake that has such an effect binds to the muscle receptor on human muscle and other animals' muscles, and it binds there much more tightly than the natural chemical transmitter, which is called estialcodine , thereby preventing the transmission of the nerve impulse to the muscle and gives the victim instant miocenia and presumably a nice meal for the snake in due time. Now the important thing about the toxin is not so much that it can paralyse its victim, but that biologists can use it, and they can use it because it's possible to label the toxin radioactively and then employ this to look at the distribution of receptors in patients with miocenia and characterise the receptors in other ways. So do you actually allow snakes to bite human beings to No, I'm glad to say that we don't do that. What erm happens is that we obtain the toxin from erm from the from a serpentarium. The people who care for these snakes are very clever at milking them and getting the venom from the animal safely, and this is then purified biochemically and erm sent to us as a dried product in a stoppered bottle and the snakes are a thousand miles away, I'm glad to say. Oh that that doesn't make it quite so exciting. Miocenia gravis, presumably, is not a very common disease in its own right — is it linked to other more common diseases, cancer, anything like that? Miocenia gravis is not so very common. The incidence is probably around six per hundred thousand in the population and erm that would mean that there are several thousand cases in the United Kingdom at any one time. It does, interestingly, erm, as I think I mentioned earlier, it does associate with other auto-immune diseases and thus one can have somebody with miocenia gravis who may themselves have over active thyroid, which is an auto-immune disease, or may have other members of the family with the same disorder. So, they can miocenia gravis can association erm with other diseases, but as far as cancer is concerned it doesn't in the ordinary sense associate with cancer. It's erm true that a gland in the chest, called the thymus glad, that we know is very important controlling immune development in young people, is abnormal in miocenia. In young miocenics the glad may be very over active when it should have become atrophied, and in some patients, not very many, there may be a benign tumour of the gland and erm but we don't think that that tumour does itself provoke the immune response, but there is a distant and rare cousin of miocenia gravis, the lampodetonmiocenic syndrome, where cancer does play a bigger part. How about multiple sclerosis? One of the reasons for studying miocenia gravis, where the disease processes are beginning to be understood more clearly, is the hope that this might elucidate diseases that are presently more obscure, like multiple sclerosis. Yet the advances in multiple sclerosis in the last few years have been very encouraging. It's now become clear that immunological factors are certainly involved. We know that the immune system in that disease produces immunoglobulins (which are antibodies, in the spinal fluid, which is the fluid surrounding the brain and spinal chord)product antibodies there in the way that normal people do not, and there's evidence too that around the areas of damaged insulation in the central nervous system, which is the characteristic abnormality or lesion in this condition, there are cells that are known to be committed to making antibody, or to aiding the production of antibody. So there is evidence that the immune system is caught up in the pathological process, but whether it's truly an auto-immune disease is not so clear. There is quite good evidence that some external agent, possibly a virus, but that's certainly not proven, but some external factor is important in precipitating the disease. And maybe the external factor interacts with the immune system and the immune system acting, over zealously as it were, not only responds to the invader, but leads to a bystander damage of the nervous system in the process. It's possible that the increased understanding that we now have of miocenia gravis will help us to understand more about diseases such as multiple sclerosis which are, unhappily, much more common than miocenia gravis. You've been kind enough to answer my rather specific questions. I wonder if I could just take a step back in conclusion and ask you a couple of rather broader questions, more general questions. The first is immunology — how has it really changed in the last, perhaps, decade or so? Has it changed radically as a subject and as an activity? I think the change in immunology and the advances in the last decade have been truly remarkable. I think science has always been characterised by periods when particular subjects have had an enormous outburst of activity, and we're seeing that with erm immunology at the present time. It's led to our understanding a number of diseases about which we were quite unclear in the past. I've talked about miocenia gravis; there is it's rarer cousin, the syndrome, which sometimes associates with carcinoma of the lung, and we have shown that this too is an auto-immune disease in which the lung cancer seems to precipitate the immune system into making an antibody against it, the tumour, and the because the tumour has on its surface the same thing as the nerve terminal, the antibody also binds to the nerve terminal and causes trouble there. It's beginning to help us to understand multiple sclerosis, and there are a number of hormonal or endocrine diseases, such as thyrotoxicosis, underactive thyroid disease, juvenile onset diabetes, rheumatoid arthritis, which are all immunological disorders and erm in which the advances of immunology have contributed to understanding. Because the treatments are so specific does that mean to say the possibility of side effects are smaller. One of the concerns that people have these days is the side effects of treatments — you cure the particular disease, but you create other problems which then go on and on. Yes. That that that is a just criticism and it has been made of immunological treatment. I think that perhaps perhaps it's not all together just. It's certainly true that the methods of treatment that we use in miocenia gravis at the moment are not specific. In other words, although they suppress the aberrant antibody, they suppress other antibody production too and also the production of blood cells, yet they seem to have a greater effect on the abnormal antibody than they do on normal ones and in quite large numbers of patients that have been treated in this way the side effects are really relatively slight. But occasional misfortunes do occur and that's unavoidable, although one must keep in mind that patients with severe forms of this disease who are untreated used to died, now they do not. The treatment that we have available controls the illness and that means that the outlook in miocenia gravis and similar disorders is very much better than it used to be. But, yes, we should be looking ahead. We should be looking at ways of being more selective about treatment, and I think one of the reasons for wishing to study miocenia gravis in such detail is to be able to get so inside the mechanism of production of the disease that we can in fact simply turn off the miocenia disease process and leave the rest of the immune system just as it was. Thank you very much, John. That's all that we have time for today. Because of the Sussex Charity Auction Appeal, there will not be a Hello. This programme is all about poetry. Professor Laurence Learner is an English scholar at the university, but he's also well known for his verse, and it's about his verse I want to talk to him today. Larry, how long have you been writing poetry? Well I suppose more or less all my life. I think if you asked that question to any poet he'd probably give that answer. It so happens that I can remember the firsts serious poem that I wrote and published, which was actually when I was in my mid-twenties. That still makes a good thirty years. How do you decide about a subject. Does it just come over you — I must write a poem about this? Well that is the traditional idea of inspiration, isn't it? In fact, no, I don't think that is so. I think it's almost like asking somebody the question how do you decide what you're interested in, or how do you decide what's worrying you or upsetting you, or pleasing you. I mean these things are niggling and if you write poems you would write a poem about it. But in fact I do have very mechanical ways. I mean I do happen to belong to a group of poets and we set one another subjects regularly. We don't always write on them; sometimes you find that if somebody tells you to write a poem about windows you end up writing a poem about aeroplanes or whatever, and I actually like being told to do something from the outside because you'll discover almost immediately whether that's really something you want to write about or not. The other possible way of answering your question is to think in terms of having a large project in which you would write a whole series of poems that would add up into a book, which as it happens I have just done, since I have just published a book of poems which are all retellings of bible stories, and there the subjects quite clearly came from the outside, though I mean unless they latch onto something inside you they won't make poems. How do you set about it? Do you sit down with a blank sheet of paper and think ‘I'm going to write a poem on the subject of windows, or bible stories’? There is of course a famous poem by Mallarme on exactly that subject about how awful this white, virgin sheet of paper is. I don't think I really know the answer to that question. Although I would have kept all the notes and drafts and I could, therefore, reconstruct how a poem is written, it's my experience that once it's been written it's very hard for me to imagine back to the time when it wasn't written. I spend a lot of time gloomily thinking I couldn't possibly write about that, and then eventually I do it. Do you go through many different versions? Less than I used to. I used to fill pages and pages to produce a very short poem. I think I now know sooner if it's not going to be any good, you know. I'm speaking personally; every other person would answer differently. It is necessary to have a lot of different stages, so that you're coming to it fresh each time, and I used to find when I was younger that that would mean putting it aside for several days. Now I find if you put it aside for an hour or two and do something else you can already come to it fresh. But you can actually sit down and write several poems to order? Well, it depends what you mean to order. I mean I could sit down and write a piece of doggerel about what we're doing now that rhymed and was comic and so on. I could do that to order; that wouldn't be something I would dream of publishing. It would be highly unlikely that it would turn out to be very interesting. I mean when I wrote this book of bible poems in fact it took me a very long time and I started all sorts of subjects which I didn't finish, so, no, you have to be obedient to whether the poem intends to get written or not. Are there any rules for writing poetry in the sense that does it have to rhyme, does it have to have a rhythm, does it have to have a particular for to be recognised and accepted as a piece of poetry as opposed, perhaps, to a piece of prose? Well I mean you can't have rules without a police force, can you, and since there's no poets' union from which you could be expelled, clearly whether there are any rules depends entirely on the poets themselves and their readers, and everybody knows that until about the end of the nineteenth century almost all poetry was written in regular metre and regular patterns and, except for blank verse, in regular rhyme, and that this is no longer so and now you would either be deliberately old fashioned or you would have some special purpose, I think, if you wrote your poems in traditional rhyming schemes. You could almost say there's a kind of rule that says you ought to write in fairly free verse nowadays and that you're making a kind of statement if you don't. I mean in fact I write in reasonably free verse, but there are all sorts of purposes, especially satiric purposes, for which rhyme is still very important. Am I right in supposing that one essential quality of poetry is that it is meant to be read aloud? Well, yes, I believe that. I mean there are a lot of people who will say that no longer applies to modern poetry because it is so complex and difficult and needs brooding on very carefully. It is actually my experience that even the most difficult and complex modern poem, especially if you have read it beforehand, comes to life quite magically when it's read alone. Larry, that is a cue, perhaps, for you to read us one of your poems. Yes, right oh. I'll start by reading a very simple poem, which is called ‘To Sarah Burge’. Sarah Burge was a Barnardo child, who was photographed in eighteen eighty three — in fact we've just passed the centenary, I realize, of this occasion — at eight years old, and I've seen the photograph and it was, of course, used for fund raising purposes, but I wrote a poem to this obviously long dead girl. ‘You are wondering why the man has disappeared under a black hood. What will he do to my face you're asking? Will he tear out my eyes; will he lock up my lips; will he tangle my hair; what will he squirt at me; why was I chosen? You were asking it then, you look out at us asking it now. Well, I will tell you. When you're lips tighten with growing he will plump them out; when you're eyes go hard and adult he will keep them dewy; when you're hair turns grey he will paint it black; he will wipe off rouge and years; push your teeth back in; erase your wrinkles. Sixty years from now you will bless him. He dead, and you dying, he gave you the kiss of life.’ Thank you very much. Can you remember how you chose that subject? Oh well that's easy, because I saw the photograph. You saw the photograph? I saw it I actually saw it at an exhibition of Victorian photographs Yes. and I was very moved by the photograph and I ended up writing a poem to this little girl, and indeed one thing I can say, perhaps with some pride, is that Doctor Barnardos know about this poem, and somehow who was writing a history Barnardo children actually asked to use it in her book. It's absolutely delightful. So it's re-inserted itself into the real world, you could say. That's very satisfying. Have you got another one you can read to us? Well I thought I might accompany it with another equally short poem, which is also about a child. The difference being that this time the child is inside and not outside, and the poet is remembering his own childhood. The poem is called ‘Implications’. ‘The implications of sunlight are everywhere. Scarlet petals; the brushed grey of the rocks; all those greens, quietly rioting. The hot streets where a child walks and I follow, forty years behind. He notices nothing. Turns past the familiar names. The mountain, the sea in its lap, the sun on the stark rock, hibiscus, poinsettia, tear fibres that ache with disuse. I long for his unwashed eyes. I look up. The same air, the same scarlet announcements, the huge sea flecked with sunlight, the same insistent mountain, the same child climbing slowly, the years like rocks above him in the ubiquitous sun.’ Perhaps I should have said at the beginning, although I hope it's obvious, that the speaker of this poem is, of course, coming back to the town where he was born. Can you remember the circumstances under which you wrote this poem? Well that's another easy one — in fact, though, this wasn't in my mind. We picked two poems on which it's very easy for me to answer that kind of question because of course I did go back to the town where I was born , and erm wrote actually quite a lot of poems — well a lot, a lot for me would be four or five in that situation — of which this is probably the most successful and this one I've put in a book. Is there a therapeutic element about your poetry? You mean therapeutic for me or for the reader? No, for you. Well that would imply that I was in a pretty bad way and normally wouldn't do No, I don't think so, not necessarily, not in the more general sense of the word therapeutic. Well. I just wondered whether it was important for you to get it out; apart from any artistic creation, it did something important for yourself? That's actually very difficult. I mean I don't write for therapeutic purposes in the sense that you might imagine, you know, someone in a mental hospital would paint or do pottery or conceivably write in order to relieve the inner tensions. I mean I guess I've got as many inner tensions as most of us, but I don't think of it in that way. I mean I've been doing it for such a long time now it's important to me to go on doing it, but then that might be rather like it's important for you to go on doing physics, isn't it? That you would feel that something had gone wrong if you were no longer able to do any physics. But whether it's therapeutic for the reader is not for me to say. I would hope, obviously, that I wrote poems that could sometimes speak to the reader's condition, and it would be too grandiose to say helped him to sort out his own feelings, but at least helped him to get a feeling of recognition and, if the poem is successful, you know, some kind of satisfaction that the feeling has been turned into that permanent form. I suppose there's a sense in which poetry can only be shared with other people if there is some common experience, maybe at a deeper level some collective unconscious, otherwise I wouldn't be able to respond to your poetry? Well you don't necessarily have to bring the collective unconscious, do you? I mean most people's poems are on widespread human experiences. We've all — take these two poems, we've all been children; most people have been in love; we're all we all think about our death; we all think about our parents; we all like stories and we all like stories that seem, you know, to deal with some primal central human experience, so I don't think you have to say anything more than what we all know already, that we all have a great deal in common with one another. Do you have a feeling that poetry is taken more seriously these days than it was, perhaps, erm twenty or thirty years ago? Are the great members of the public more likely to respond to poetry and recognise it as a serious endeavour? I mean there are so many ways to take you question, isn't it — one way is to simply look at the sales of poetry books; well I have no idea, but my guess is that those perhaps haven't changed very much. Well what, of course, has happened in the last generation or two is the growth of poetry readings. That is to say there's hardly a well known poet in England now who doesn't go round reading his work on various public occasions. The only ones who don't are those who don't want to like Philip Larkin, and there is a sense in which poems have — probably since I started writing — have been lifted off the page much more in the absolutely literal sense, that people are used to hearing them and can read them afterwards. Larry, thank you very much indeed. I would love to talk to you over a much longer period, but I'm afraid that's all that we have time for today. Next week is the last programme in our current series and Peter Townsend will be talking about thermo-luminescence, which is a new technique in physics for dating pottery. Until next Sunday, then, goodbye. Hello. A couple of months ago, an economist, Professor Ken Balding of the University of Colorado, gave a talk at the university on the subject ‘How do things go from bad to better?’ It seemed to me that this would be an interesting and upbeat note on which to finish our current serious on the theme of disasters, so I asked him what he meant by human betterment. What do we mean by things getting better rather than worse? Then, if we ever find out what we mean by it, how do we do it? That's a hundred year project. And what we mean by it is a little vague, but that's really important. That's is the erm the real world often is very vague, and it's a great mistake to be clear about it, but on the other hand it means something. All human beings make evaluations all the time. It occupies a good deal of our conversation, you know, ‘How are you?’, ‘What did you think of the play last night?’, ‘Are you having a good meeting?’, you know, and then of course all decisions involve human evaluations because a decision is a choice among alternative images of the future really and we evaluate these and pick out what we think is the best, obviously. What economists call the theory of maximising behaviour, which is just flossy way of saying it. We are making these evaluations all the time about ourselves, our own health, our economic status and of our families, our community, our county and the world as a whole — we make evaluations about this — and these aren't all the same, of course. One of the problems is that erm different human beings make different evaluations. The man who's just won an election usually thinks things have gone from to better and the man who's lost it thinks they have gone from bad to worse. On the other hand, though, we do in society have erm all sorts of erm apparatuses and institutions, not necessarily for reconciling different evaluations, but for co-ordinating them I would say. And then the other thing is I sometimes call preachments, such as the moral order essentially. There's every erm every one of us lives in culture or sub-culture which criticises our own evaluations and, as I said, if you belong to a motor cycle gang and you don't like motor cycles you won't last very long . Either you get out or you'd be pushed out. And if you're a professor, well you have to like studying and you have to like reading and you have to like teaching and all these other things. If you don't, you'll soon be out on your ear, so that they are all subjects of these persuasions, these moral persuasions, and then the overall society tends to criticize the values of the different sub-cultures within it, you see, and the Russians are rather nasty to the Baptists and we're rather nasty to the Communists. And then these overall evaluations change too, so you have a long evolutionary process here, you see, the working out of human evaluations, and while you won't get you won't get total agreement that the you will erm some sort of co-ordination and the particularly I argue that while there's an area sort of in the middle, as it were, where you can get away with all sorts of things, you see, there are cliffs . You will find some sort of agreement that erm well a nuclear war will take us very much to the worse, there's no question about it — war nearly always does. And that erm a depression, the great depression was really everybody would agree it was a movement from bad to worse. What you say is very plausible, but how do you actually decide that one state of the system is better than another state? Well I mean what is your criterion? We are doing this all the time. Yes. And if somebody says ‘Well, are you feeling better today than you did yesterday?’ you'll give them some sort of answer. If you're ill and somebody says are you getting better, you say ‘Well, no, I feel worse today’. Supposing — let me stop you here — supposing you have a hundred people Yes sir. and you want to say now are they in a better state today than they were yesterday. That's right. How do you actually decide that in some reasonable way? Do you say ‘Hands up all those that feel that they are better today than they were yesterday, or do you apply some perhaps more objective criteria of describing that? Well, you see what you're talking about is subjective reality. This is a very large part of it. If you have a hundred people, as you say, well you can do all sorts of things; you can take a vote, or you can argue it out,until you come to some kind of consensus. I spent some time in Japan. I've always been fascinated working in Japan, because you don't take any parts, that erm they would just argue it out until somebody says well this is what we should do and everyone says ‘Yes, that's right, that's what we should do’ you see, so that erm there are all sorts of ways of doing this. That's to solve a problem. How do you actually decide whether a state of a system, or a group of people is better than one stage than another. I mean do you sort of maximise the good of all, or do you use a criterion of everyone thinking that they themselves are happy, or is it some other means? Well, there is a kind of waiting process here, that is in political life particularly, some people are more important than others in their political views and opinions and certainly depending on the nature of the society. You may have erm an absolute dictatorship, in which the values of the dictator are that and nobody asks anybody else anything about it. He or she just makes the evaluations and makes the decisions and that's that. This is rather unstable, and it usually comes to an end in a funeral. Funerals are very valuable politically, and then you usually get a kind of a shake down, you get some kind of group — in the Communist countries it's the polit bureau . They make the basic decisions. On the other hand, you can have something like the gang of four in China that creates such tensions and anxieties in the society and so many people get to feel that things have gone from bad to worse, that you get a shake up and change in the regime. It's hard for any government to persist unless there are considerable numbers of people who regard it as legitimate, but legitimacy changes also, and if you make erm drastic mistakes you won't be re-elected like President Hoover . So you're saying essentially that the only ultimate way of deciding that state a. is better than state b. is the people themselves vote that this is the has in some appropriate way, or not the case. Or persuade or influence, or as I say even vote with their pocket books. Ford Motor Company produced an Edsul years ago, and nobody liked it and so nobody bought it and so it soon went out of production. You haven't got to think of this in terms of finding the answer for all time, because the answer changes all the time, but what you have is a continued process of approximate answers, but it isn't chaos. It's meaningful and you may not, as I say, come out with any single and simple answer, in fact my own view really is that there's large area over which it doesn't matter very much. One of the things I'm arguing really is what you might call the ultimate goodness, you see the thing goodness I just define as what goes up when you decide things are getting better and what goes down when things are getting worse . This is related to all sorts of secondary goods, what I call the virtues and vices really. Things like, well, riches and justice and freedom and large things like peace and large things like that you see, or just erm personal characteristics and subordinate good is something which when it goes up things get better and bad or an evil or a vice is something when it goes up things get worse. You certainly all agree if there's an increase in crime, or cheating, or violence in the society, that these things are bad and as these things increase things change for the worse. Another very important principle also is that these erm the relationship between the ultimate good — G I call it — and these subordinate ones is non-linear as a mathematician would say, that is that nearly every virtue becomes a vice if you have too much of it, you see. One you can be thrifty, which is certainly a virtue, but to be a skinflint is a vice and this is true even of riches, even of economic development. You can get too rich and beyond rich, you know, you're worse off getting richer. Most people thinks that's a very long way off, but in the case of something like health then erm we certainly agree health is good for a very long way. mhm On the other hand we got into a discussion yesterday as to whether the medical profession isn't devoting too much of its energy just to keeping people alive who really ought to be dead. So I mean perhaps they'd be better off dead, just keeping them alive in a state of sickness or in coma or something of this sort — there was a great discussion about this and that erm you see not even life is the ultimate good in a sense, you see, at some point death is better. Death is a very good idea, otherwise you wouldn't have any babies. I mean death is the price we pay for life, and at some point or other it's very desirable to depart from this world certainly. What you're really saying is that a society which is perhaps stable, certainly better, is one in which there's a fair degree of moderation and a fair degree of evenness in terms of Well spread of erm assets and Well it depends a little on it depends a little on the level, particularly with the impact of erm science on production in society, you see. We've also been able to have a great deal more equality. The level of equality in society is very closely related to it's level of productivity. I was in China a few years ago and was fascinated to discover there was one bicycle for every thirty Chinese, and you see they're not going to be distributed very equally are they? You can't have a thirtieth of a bicycle . You might be able to have half a bicycle if you share it with somebody else, but there is not way of having a thirtieth of a bicycles. So that bicycles in China are distributed very unequally. I mean the people in the city the people in Peking have them, and the people out in the country don't. Even more striking with automobiles — there was, I don't know, just a few thousand automobiles in China, and only the very very rich, who are the bureaucrats and the you see have them. They drive around with chauffeurs erm most people from Peking drive bicycles and most people in the country walk. So, on the whole, although you're not a physicist, clearly by your remarks you think that technology and progress in that sense is a good thing, rather than a bad thing. Yes. More bicycles for more people. Up to a point you see. Well when I come back to England today, as I do nearly every summer, it seems a fantastically rich and happier country than the one I grew up in. I grew up in Liverpool, you see, back in the twenties, and the filth and the smoke and the poverty, I mean the grinding poverty, especially among the Irish in Liverpool, you don't see that today. I mean the health of the country is enormously improved; the health of children is enormously improved. I do think it is scandalous thing neglecting your educational system and you're going to pay for this for a hundred years, because riches just come by learning, that's all. That's all it comes by is human learning, and you're neglecting that, you say, that is you aren't developing a learning society and you're going to pay for this and pay for this and pay for this, you see, and your children will pay for it, your grandchildren will pay for it, you see, just what you're doing to the educational system, what you're doing to the universities and you're so far behind from what erm most other modern countries are. I mean it is you're even below Turkey, you know. Below Turkey ? Yes, and a proportion of people don't have education. Yet learning is the only way that things get better. This is my view, you see. It is that you have to learn how to get rich and how to get peaceful and how to be, you know, how to have a good life How to be happy? How to be happy — you have to learn how to do it. And, lastly, how do things go from bad to better? Well, really by human learning. Yes. And by learning of erm mature values. Learning how to love — you see a lot of it depends on benevolence, as I say, there's caring for other people, you see, developing a sense of community, you see, it is avoiding the sort of things we get into in Northern Ireland, erm Cyprus, Lebanon, where you get these absolutely nightmarish cultures of violence that just go on generation after generation and are utterly useless. I mean they don't they just make everybody worse off. How do you develop what we call positive sum games, in theory, things which make everybody better off. I remember the corcus race in Alice in Wonderland, where Alice says everybody is one so everybody must have prizes. That's what you look for, you see, you look for corcus races really and while conflict is perfectly real, and no question of that, but it tremendously easily becomes pathological and gets out of hand and a good deal of social organization consists really and how do you erm in a sense how do you keep people and societies from falling over these cliffs? Partly is the developing realistic images of the future, a realistic image of the world and erm cultivating the right quantities of the right virtues. That's about what it is. Life is a corcus race, with prizes for all. That's right. Thank you very much, Professor Balding . That's all that we have time for today. The next programme will be on Sunday afternoon Hello. Continuing our short series on what is happening in education, today we're going to take a look at the impact microcomputers are making on the classroom. Dudley Ward is a mathematician at the university, and someone who is particularly interested in the teaching of maths at school level. Dudley, tell us about the revolution in school teaching caused by microcomputers. Well I think the revolution is still coming. I think teachers are naturally suspicious of new ideas, and rightly so. They've seen lots of fashions come and go, so they're suspicious of microcomputers in many ways and the changes are happening so fast, I think many are sort of waiting to see what's going to happen before they commit themselves. Talking about it as a revolution in the wider world, and how it impacts on classrooms, there has, of course, been a tremendously increased interest in using micros in schools in the last three years. In East Sussex two or three years ago there was probably only one or two primary schools, say, with a microcomputer, and most secondary schools probably had one Commodore Pet computer. Now I would be surprised if there were more than one or two primary schools which haven't got a microcomputer and of the secondary schools they've probably got seven or eight of varying sorts. I can understand using microcomputers in secondary schools, that makes a certain amount of sense, but is there any sense in using computers in primary schools? I think there's a lot of sense. Firstly, when one thinks about using computers in schools, one tends to think of technology, and you think of people with white coats and dials and sort of science and technology and so forth, whereas I think in schools the big interest is in using a microcomputer as a teaching aid and as a support to other services and other ways of doing things, so it is just as relevant in a primary school as a secondary school. Also, primary schools are more adaptable erm they haven't got the constraints; they haven't got the syllabuses to get through; they haven't got exams at the end of the year; they haven't got to the sort of subject departmentalization that you get in a secondary school. So that if you say to a primary teacher ‘Here's a new toy, here's a new idea, why not try it?’ then they've got the opportunity to do so without sort of dramatically changing things. You put a microcomputer into a primary classroom and it seems to fit. The normal activity you'll find in a primary classroom is groups of children all doing different things scattered round the room. There'll be a group making pots out of clay or out of plasticine; there'll be a group doing sums; there'll be a group working with the microcomputer, and that can be incorporated in to the group work pattern, and it can also be incorporated into the sort of topic and project work that a primary school does. They're not quite so committed to doing maths in the morning and English in the afternoon, whereas in a secondary school it is quite difficult to bring in something as that's going to have such a dramatic effect as a micro without sort of the ripples actually perturbing things to a destructive degree. Can I just say from a practical point of view, primary classes are fairly static sort of places, you've got the teacher in the class all day, and if they say well let's have a micro in our classroom today that can be done, whereas a secondary teacher tends to wander round the school with a load of books under one arm and a bag of equipment under the other arm, and they've also got to carry a micro round or move a micro from one classroom to another — it's physically difficult, so in practice the primary teachers seem to find it easier to fit in with micros. But do you find that children really understand what they're doing at all in any sensible way? Well they understand what they're doing in the same way as they understand what they're doing when they're watching a video. They're using a machine to do something. When they switch the television on they don't understand what's happening, and the same is true with a micro. You see I think there's a confusion between teaching computer science and computer studies and learning about computers and using micros in education. Teaching about computers is important, both technically and from the role they're going to have in the children's lives, but as I have said before the main interest, from an educational point of view, is using it as one would use a video tape or an overhead projector or a blackboard and a piece of chalk. So it's not so much a device to study in its own right, it's a teaching aid in other words, a classroom aid. Yes, that's right, and I think the software, that is the programs and material that's being produced to use with these machines, are becoming more sophisticated from the point of view of being made and more technically satisfactory, and therefore they're simpler to use. So all the technical stuff's going on inside the machine, and the user is spared the problems of knowing how to work it. Perhaps only three or four keys on the typewriter keyboard that the computer will have need to be pressed at all, and if a child presses the wrong one it doesn't all stop and funny, you know, impersonal messages come up on the screen saying he's done something wrong, it just ignores them and waits for one of the correct responses. One of the difficulties, it seems to me, that exists in schools today is that the teacher has to cope with a fairly large class, and one possible advantage of having a fair number of microcomputers mhm available is that kids would be able to progress and their own level and independent of each other, and take the pressure of the teacher slightly. Is that right? Yes. I think it can work that way, but I think many of us have a horror of a future picture of thirty kids sitting at thirty terminals, you know, pressing keys without any personal interaction with the teacher or with each other. So, providing you say yes there will be occasions when the machine can take over some sort of part of the teacher's role, then fair enough, yes, but I think one of the interesting ways in which computers are used at the present time, particularly again in the primary school, is as orchestrators of group work. You have three or four children sitting round the computer discussing, arguing, planning, working with the machine, and the machine is, as I say, co-ordinating their activities. Maybe recording what they're doing, leading them, and the teacher can come in at appropriate moments to help it along. So, yes, it can help the teacher, like a potter's wheel can help the teacher, or like a blackboard and a piece of chalk can help the teacher. And certainly at the level of or two machines per school we're not quite in the league of having each child it it's own cell yet. No, no, thank God. I don't think it'll come. What I would like to see, perhaps, is for every department in a secondary school to have a machine — every class, of course, to have a machine — and that's happening. Your history department or geography department may say well if we had a micro we'd be able to do such and such and they'll think about that in competition with other needs — textbooks or whatever _ so you'll see departments using them, as I say, in the same way that we'd use other sophisticated aids. One criticism that was levelled at calculators when they were widely available was that kids would start using them and really wouldn't understand basic arithmetic. Could one make a similar accusation of microcomputers? Well you could certainly say they could use them without understanding electronics, but that's probably a good thing. I think a lot of people are put off computing by the thought that it's very technical and very difficult to get into, and I think in some ways it still is and there's a sort of group of experts who rather jealously guard their knowledge, so in that sense, yes, they could short cut and remove skills that perhaps people should have. My son, who's in his teens, can't do long division, simply because he wasn't paying attention, presumably, at school, and he's always used a calculator since. Yes. Well I I think that's fair enough. I don't expect he could use a slide rule either, and you and I might think that using a slide rule would be one of the marks of an educated man, but I think things move on. Long division's pretty boring; I think what I would like every child to know is the fact that long division is just repeated subtraction and all the methods long division do is to formalize that repeated subtracted. Well they know that, and if there's a machine that'll do the job, and if, when they've pressed the right buttons they can look at the answer and say ‘Yes, three point four's about right’ and so on, then that's good enough for me. I mean can you solve square roots by hand? Not without my acabus — does he mean abacus Yes, well you see I remember learning how to solve square roots by the long division method, and I don't know whether there was a method for cube roots, but I suspect there was, but I never got on to that. I suspect the teachers are not quite so enthusiastic some of them. That's right, and they resist the revolution, as it were, and I think rightly so. They've seen teaching machines come and go. They've seen language labs, which are great, more or less mould away for lack of resources to keep them in working order, and they see micros coming in at a time when everything else is being cut. They want new apparatus for their labs; they want new textbooks and new books in the library, and they find they're having to compete with bits for microcomputers and they say well what about a good book, isn't that better? So I think they're right to be suspicious, and it's right for those people who feel they have a role it's up to them to make it appear interesting and to show them the relevance. It's not the answer to all education's problems, of course. But there's a sense in which the teachers themselves are going to have to learn new skills, both in terms of the sheer mechanics of handling these devices, but also in sort of learning how to use them best in their actual teaching. Yes, and I think that second bit is the important part. Honestly, I don't think it matters knowing how to program, or knowing how to make the machines actually work. I think some teachers will do that for interest's sake, and good because probably teachers are probably the best people to design the software and the programs that the machines use. No, it's knowing how to get the most out of it, the sort of simulation programs, the programs which lead children to think and to plan and to use these well is another skill. But teachers are very enthusiastic. They flock along to in-service courses. They give up their weekends and their evenings and so on. This university, for example, runs courses for teachers to learn how to handle the micro? Indeed, we've been running courses for several years now, both for primary and secondary level, to help those teachers who are particularly enthusiastic, and also to form a sort of resource for them. One of the things we've been doing this year is to actually have a club once a week, a sort of club night, when teachers can come it — this is particularly primary teachers — and use our machinery, look at our programs, go through our library and meet each other, so that the people who have got some expertise can then go back to the school and sort of spread their information and their enthusiasm in their schools. That's the sort of role that we are trying to perform. And that club could be joined by any teacher? This year we've restricted it to primary, partly because we felt that's where the enthusiasm was, and partly, if people won't mind me saying so, to keep out the computer science specialists — we felt that, you know, we didn't want a club for boffins or for the experts, we wanted a club and we felt that if we started at the primary end, where there wasn't a lot of expertise, we would probably be of more use. We're thinking of extending it next year to cover secondary. Many schools in East and West Sussex belong and erm we get a regular attendance each Monday night. So if there's any teacher who's listening to this programme who would like details of it, by writing in to you, Dudley Ward, at the university? Oh yes, we'd send them an application form and tell them what we do. Well I'm sure there'll be one or two respondents to that. Lastly, Dudley, what's going to be the future? More microcomputers, more use of them? Can you see the future at all? No, I mean two years ago I think we would have made wrong predictions about what's happening now. I could make a few inspired guesses that the machinery will get, not so much cheaper, although it is getting a bit cheaper, but you'll get more for the same money — rather like calculators _ they haven't actually got very much cheaper in the last two or three years, but you get more for your fiver. More memory. More memory and more functions and more ability to store more information and so on, yes. So I see that. I see bigger screens. It's quite a problem in a classroom — to have even a twenty six inch colour screen is not good enough. Big, flat, colour screens, that would be nice. Easy connections between machinery, so that you can just plug into a socket. So there's going to be a shift towards easier to handle equipment, more friendly to the user. That sounds a good point at which to finish. User friendliness. Thank you very much, Dudley. That's all that we have time for today. Next week The component parts of the multiplier have been agreed as four years for the period up to the age of nineteen when he leaves school and thirteen years thereafter Mrs doctor and Mr Paul's headmaster agree that Paul needs an enabler at school during school hours, that is classroom hours, an enabler is in effect a classroom assistant who works with him on a one to one basis to ensure that he can participate in lessons. It is right to say that I have heard from Mrs Paul's classroom assistant during the last academic year, she appears virtually to have acted as an enabler, but she was by no means dedicated to Paul as a one to one enabler and of course the extent of the attention of which she had to give to Paul detracted from her ability to give attention to other pupils. Mr the headmaster has recently applied to Paul's present local authority London Borough of Merton for a classroom assistant for Paul for thirty hours per week he does not know whether he will get that or a lesser number of hours or none at all, he was repeatedly, in my view quite rightly, extremely reluctant to express any view about what the outcome of his application maybe, but, rather force time is to which we have to guess, his guess was that ten hours might be afforded but he was at pains to emphasize that that was pure guess work. He was however er reasonably clear as to the speed at which local authorities tend to deal with these matters, he said that it always takes a long time and getting any answer out of the local authority might well take somewhere between six months and up to two years, he thought that perhaps eighteen months was a reasonable guess before he would actually manage to get somebody if Paul were to move as er, it maybe well occur to here or a different local authority then of course the application would just go back to square one and that would lead to more delay. Mrs proposes that there should be such a classroom assistant or an enabler for twenty hours per week that would almost cover the full classroom week of twenty five hours. Mr for the defendant effectively accepts that, but says that having regard to Mr er undoubted success in regard to provision of one to one assistance in relation to other children, some of whom are less disabled than Paul, that I should try and look to local authority will provide thirty hours assistance or thereabouts after say eighteen months and that therefore in this regard the defendant should pay for only one and a half years of er enabler's time. I think that that is over optimistic, I cannot be confident that there will be any local authority provision at all, it seems to me that this particular provision is really vital to Paul's education and I think it right to ensure that it is available. In addition to classroom support Mrs says that Paul needs general support for three hours per evening in relation to his er social well being in his leisure activities three hours per evening for the four evenings a week which he spends at school, in relation to this I think it right to bear in mind Mr evidence about the school, being a special school of course has generous staffing levels, staffing levels which would make the mouth of any head teacher of any other school water I suspect. There are ninety nine pupils, the total staff is one hundred, of course that does not for a moment mean that er, there is one member of staff attendant on each pupil at all times, and I don't for a moment suggest that. Of the ninety nine pupils, seventy five are boarders, the suffer varying degrees, degrees of disability, something like nine or ten of them are roughly in Paul's category of disablement, although he is the most severely disabled. There are nineteen full-time care staff of whom eleven are on duty in the evenings and Mr has asked for a further eleven full-time care staff, he hopes in due course to be able to have seventeen such staff on duty at any one time. In these circumstances in my judgment there is entirely adequate support for Paul of the sort that Mrs envisaged and indeed I am inclined to the view that one to one dedicated support for him out of classroom hours may not be desirable and might well tend at least to come between him and his fellow pupils so if one turns to Mrs schedule one on page forty seven, papers before me, I think that the appropriate arithmetic is to provide for twenty hours per week at seven pounds per hour for thirty seven school weeks, that is an enabler for the school period, I confess that I find it much easier to deal with Mrs schedules on page forty seven by treating schedule one as having to do with the, the school period, schedule two having to deal with the home periods and schedule three with parental care, as it is actually set out on page forty seven, and I confess that during the case I kept confusing myself about this point, schedule one deals not only with school but also, rather confusingly, with an enabler at home and I think it easier to confine that schedule to er school time. The result of the calculation that er I think appropriate is that one finds twenty hours a week, seven pounds an hour, thirty seven weeks a year comes out I hope at five thousand, one hundred and eighty pounds, to that should be added four hundred and forty five pounds national insurance contributions and I have left the advertising fees at the same amount two hundred pounds. That means five thousand eight hundred and twenty five pounds which one multiplies by four, giving a total under that schedule of twenty three thousand, three hundred pounds, I regret to say that it is of course inherent in the judgment that I have to deliver that there is a good deal of what I might call rather boring arithmetic, I'm sorry about that, but it is unavoidable. Going on to er schedule two, and first of all the weekends, it is not common ground that care of twenty four, four, twenty four hours should be provided, that gives a weekly figure, a yearly figure for er of seven thousand, one hundred and four pounds, multiplying that by four one gets twenty eight thousand, four hundred and sixteen pounds. In the same schedule I accept Mrs suggestions for the school holidays and the rates that she gives so that one has seven thousand, eight hundred and fifty two pounds fifty times four which equals thirty one thousand, four hundred and ten pounds. I do not however accept that in addition to the hours of care which she provides at home during the school holidays that there should also be an enabler for twenty hours per week as she suggests that would mean that the number of hours of care, and I appreciate of course, that there is some artificiality in dealing with this in pure terms of numbers of hours of care, but nevertheless it provides a sort of common denominator, which can give some indication, that would mean no less than ninety hours of boarding and care per week fifty during the week erm and twenty during the weekend and a further twenty for the enabler, I think that that er is too great and I make no allowance for an enabler at home. Next in schedule three there is provision to compensate Mr and Mrs for the extra work involved in caring for Paul, it is agreed that er since they are in the special position of course of being Paul's carers they are, not er, I mean no disrespect to nursing but they're not erm it is agreed that there should a deduction of twenty five percent, that would give an annual figure of two thousand, six hundred and thirty one times four will amount to ten thousand five hundred and twenty four pounds, adding these figures together, future care during schooling comes if my addition has been accurate to ninety three thousand, six hundred and fifty pounds in total. Turning to care for Paul after the age of nineteen the approach of Mrs is very much at variance with the approach of Mrs , both agree that Paul will require a resident carer present, twenty four hours a day. Mrs thinks that that is best provided by two carers living in the house, each on duty for half the week, such carers being directly employed by the , by contrast Mrs says that an agency should provide a carer all the time from its available pool, she envisages that in practice three or four carers would share the work, they differ over the full number of hours care to be provided by hired carers, Mrs envisages seventeen hours a day in total, Mrs ten hours, again I emphasize that the artificiality of the working in precise number of hours, where you have somebody actually living in the house all the time and available to er carry out active care at any time, but of course carers are not always having to do things which might be described as active care. The advantages and disadvantages of each proposal have been canvassed helpfully by Counsel, I have to say that I prefer the approach of Mrs , she had in my view more experience and more relevant experience than Mrs was able to bring to bear. Her scheme of things in my judgment is likely to offer better continuity of care and thus more rapport between Paul and his carers and a better opportunity for one carer to hand on the necessary skills with Paul's equipment to any successor. These advantages appear to me to outweigh the disadvantages identified by Mr of there being more outsiders in the family household, possibly homesick and unhappy carers who are not living in their own homes, but at the establishment and the trouble and worry to the of what would be not infrequent, recruitment of new carers for Mrs , I hope perhaps a trifle pessimistically thought that on average carers would not spend more than about a year of course, some longer, some shorter, because such carers necessarily had to be fairly young, fit, strong people and the stresses and strains of the er the whole business she thought would lead to reasonably rapid turnover, not the emergence of long-term carers who might stay for a number of years, er, as I say I'd rather hoped that she may be unduly pessimistic about that, but, that, I accept what she says about it. I think that agency care by its nature is likely to be more impersonal, is likely to involve a greater turnover of staff and would be considerably less satisfactory for Paul. I also think that Mrs somewhat underestimated the formal hours required, I have noted from the er, the B M A documents setting out the charges to be expected to be levied by agencies in relation to nurses that extra hours will be charged per hour and I can foresee that if an agency contracts to provide ten hours formal care that er, it might be that with a number of carers they would find themselves very, very frequently putting in for extra hours of care. For those reasons as I, have I, hoped made plain, it seems to me that the general scheme provided by Mrs is the one that ought to be adopted, however in my view when Mrs also makes provision for a second carer for some three hours a day that is well over egging the pudding, if I may adopt a phrase used by Mr at one stage during the case , I feel sure that in practice the two resident carers would not simply say well I'm on duty from eight am on Monday till twelve midday on Thursday and I shall do nothing during the rest of the week, I think that living in the household for, at least periods of months and hopefully, well rather more than that, they would work things out in a way in which they in fact helped each other very considerably. In addition Mrs scheme at page forty three provides for a further twenty eight hours a week to be provided in some other way, that it is suggested is parental care, but it seems to me that it would either be parental care or hired care. That I think recognizes a possibility, by no means a probability, but a possibility that Paul might move away from home and the more real possibility that in due course that Mr and Mrs might be unable to bear their part further as carers. To allow for those contingencies I think it right to allow the commercial rate for the twenty eight hours per week in inverted commas, parental care, rather than a discounted rate. Accordingly this is schedules on page forty three, they overlap in numbers for their schedules three and four, erm come out at er the first of schedule three, thirty five thousand, six hundred and eighty six pounds seventeen per annum times thirteen and seven thousand, two hundred and eighty pounds per annum times thirteen as I er hope is correct arithmetically, but I invite correction in due course, adding all the figures for future care together, one gets to a figure of six hundred and fifty two thousand pounds, two, sorry, sixty hundred and fifty two, two, one zero, from that an agreed sum of thirty nine thousand, six hundred and ninety one pounds for disability living allowance, Paul's to be deducted leaving six hundred and twelve thousand, five hundred and nineteen pounds. That finding effectively determines the agreed figures on which damages relating to the provision of suitable accommodation in turn, it is agreed that if two carers are to live in the household, that suitable new accommodation for the plaintiff can be acquired for two hundred and seventeen thousand, five hundred pounds, the house in which he at present lives will fe fetch eighty two thousand, five hundred pounds, a difference of a hundred and thirty five thousand pounds. It is further agreed that the approach adopted by the court of appeal in the case of and incorporate of nineteen eighty nine, one queens bench page eight hundred and seventy eight, is that which I should adopt, er the person which seeks to persuade me that the percentage which I should apply should be four point five percent rather than the two percent used in that case by the court of appeal, he argues partly on the basis of er, evidence by Mr an architect who er, with the greatest respect to him, whilst I feel quite sure his architectural abilities are of the highest quality, I feel that as an economist he is perhaps er not more reliable than any other economist, er but er, Mr argues that er, recent falls in house prices show that houses are not the risk free inflation proof investments which the court of appeal assumed when and was decided. It seems to me when deciding that case, the court of appeal were as Mr suggests taking a long-term view, I of course bear in mind the well known aphorism of Lord about er what happens in the long term, but er,my own view is, that in fact, a house should not actually be built as an investment at all it is something to live in, to make a home in, it is not something to make money out of, I very much regret the fact that er over recent years that view seems to have become somewhat old fashioned . In so far as the house does represent a large capital asset, and it undoubtedly does, I am quite clear that in the long term, house prices are likely, generally to rise with inflation, indeed I would think must do so or perhaps to rise rather more quickly than inflation if there is a rising population and as there has been for very, very ma many years have passed,that, in the passed a decreasing occupancy rate. I suspect that the proposition that broadly the price of housing will rise at least as fast as inflation could only be falsified if some pestilence almost on the scale of the black death were to occur so that supply vastly exceeded demand or significantly exceeded demand. I think that whether as er Mr submits and is a guideline case and to be adapted to changing conditions or whether it is a case which lays down a bounding rate, that it is a case which I should follow and that the reasoning leading to the adoption of two percent as the appropriate percentage to be applied still applies today, thus the calculation is one hundred and thirty five thousand pounds times two percent, is two thousand, seven hundred pounds times seventeen, is forty five thousand, nine hundred pounds, to this there is to be added a cost of conversion, thirty two thousand, four hundred and seventy two pounds less the enhancement in value thereby created of twelve thousand, five hundred pounds that is a figure of nineteen thousand, nine hundred and seventy two. Further figures have been agreed, three thousand pounds, eight hundred and fifty po fifty five pounds and fourteen hundred and twenty five pounds for additional costs of moving, maintenance and insurance respectively. I am not persuaded that any further calculation relating to enhancement of value such as that adopted by Mr in case is required. The figures which I have given, I hope, add up to a total for new accommodation of seventy one thousand, one hundred and fifty two pounds. There remain three further issues, one relates to the cost of conversion of future transport. It is agreed that an appropriate vehicle for the transport of the plaintiff in the future is a vehicle called a Nissan Serena, the plaintiff claims for a cost of conversion of such a vehicle at six thousand, two hundred pounds, it would need to be renewed of course from time to time and allowances made for that, the defendant says that a firm called can convert the same vehicle for less than the tenth of the price, six hundred pounds, Mr says that such advantages, if any, of the conversion for which the plaintiff claims are so minimal that it cannot possibly be right to spend ten times the money on achieving them. That argument would I think be very persuasive if I were able to be confident that the levels of conversion is one which would be an adequate and proper one, it is relatively new, there is nothing wrong with that, it is not apparently been a conversion which has been put into practice, except in the last year because have only started conversion when the Nissan Serena was brought out. Not very many sub-conversions have yet been done as I understand it and my source of information about the levels of conversion is solely from Mrs , called on behalf of the defendants and her real source of information is simply one family whom she has talked to on the telephone about it, who find the levels conversion of their Nissan Serena perfectly satisfactory for their twenty year old daughter. I do not think that that evidence second and third hand as it is, is really enough for me to be confident that the conversion will answer. I think it right to bear in mind the evidence of Mr a solicitor now specializing in re-habilitation work who is himself alas wheelchair bound, erm, he has directly relevant experience and he expressed the view that er two ramps leading up to the vehicle from the rear could be unsafe and were in his view generally less satisfactory than the platform with which the conversion equips the Nissan Serena, in those circumstances it seems to me I really have no choice but to er adopt the alternative of the conversion and er there is an agreed figure of thirty nine thousand, eight hundred and sixty six pounds in relation to that. The next matter is this, that it is known that unfortunately the plaintiff will require an operation in due course to correct a I'm not sure whether deformity is quite the right word, mm, mm but it is close enough of the foot. That operation as I understand it is certainly either available on the National Health or er likely to be available on the national health I have not understood that it is the sort of operation which will for any reason suddenly need to be done and I bear in mind that the plaintiff has had already an operation on his hip done on the National Health, it seems to me on the probabilities that there is a very strong probability that that operation will be done on the National Health and not done privately and for that reason it does not seem to me right to include any sum in relation to that in the damages. There are of course the court of protection costs which are to be calculated and are not a source of disagreement. The last matter relates to some possible supposed uncertainty about the plaintiff's further education at school, as I have already noted it is expected that the plaintiff will remain at school until he is nineteen, he has been there now for three years. It is clear to me from Mr evidence that er he regards school as entirely appropriate for the plaintiff. Mr and Mrs are as I understand it entirely satisfied with that school. The only fear is that the local authority who would retain responsibility for Paul's schooling, after normal school leaving age, if he remains a child with a statement of special educational needs, might possibly say that they would no longer pay for him being at school. I think it is absolutely plain that there is no possibility, that any local authority wherever Paul were living would find it possible to that he should cease to be a statement in child, it is quite clear, I think, that he is bound to remain a child with a statement of special educational needs, in those circumstances any local authority would have the statutory duty to provide for his education, either at or somewhere else and in practice it seems to me there is no reasonable possibility of his being moved from after he has spent, will it be probably more than four years there perhaps five years there, that I think is not a possibility which has to be catered for. In those circumstances it does not seem to me right to leave open, whether the court has power to do so I'm doubtful, but in any event it does not seem to me right to leave open a question of whether there should be some damages to provide for the possibility that er Paul may have to leave school, nor do I think that it is a situation in which any contingency award should be made in respect of that. To summarize the total award is thus made up in this way there are agreed items as shown on the er schedule of the plaintiff's submissions which come to three hundred and fifty two thousand, five hundred and ninety six pounds, I hope that figure is right er, I have to confess that I have not added it up and er the copy that I have, the five and the nine could be mistaken for other figures, but I hope that there the right figures to that must be added first the general damages a calculation which like all by other calculations need to be carefully checked, I would er calculate the interest on general damages to date would be five thousand, two hundred and seven pounds future care totals six hundred and twelve thousand, five hundred and seventeen pounds suitable accommodation, seventy one thousand, one hundred and fifty two pounds, transport costs thirty nine thousand, eight hundred and sixty six pounds, that makes a total of one million, two hundred and six thousand, three hundred and thirty eight pounds that is the amount which I would be minding to award, I understand that the parties in the light of that would wish to have further discussions about the matter For the total I counted two pounds different from his Lordship, I erm I came to two pounds difference about something yes, the future care erm, I think it's in the future care, I rather think that perhaps the future care ought to have been five hundred and nineteen, not five hundred and seventeen that's why I come to two pounds separate er yes er six thousand one, one, nine you're, you're absolutely right , I'm afraid in, in erm I, I,re remember seeing that discrepancy and I'm not quite sure why it didn't get into my notes your Lordship's findings were to the age of nineteen a total of nine, three, six, five, O. From the age of nineteen, six, five, two, two, one, O and from the sum of those two figures yes you deducted three, nine, six, nine, one, and so whatever it is should end in nine at least yes because it's one taken away from yes yes I think it should be six, twelve, five, one, nine yes, so we altered it? yeah, you're absolutely right, obviously so sorry so one, two O although that is the only error I've made in these figures I, not myself I haven't done precise cal computation of interest, but, erm the rough one indicate that it is something in the region of five thousand, two hundred but I quite agree with his Lordship's figure of five, two, O, seven, total one is one, two, one, six, three, four, O yes my lord various er matters arise under that, we would ask er at this stage erm not for a judgement, two reasons, but for an adjournment, the first reason is the court of protection costs will have to be calculated yes and the second reason is that we wish, we wish to take professional advice from experienced accountants on the merits or demerits of the structured settlement yes to which one might add this additional gloss, erm recently there have been under a statutory instrument which regulates er, the ca computation of court of protection costs in the event of the structure in a way differently from the traditional one and the defendants would wish to argue yes er that if the structure is to be offered, accepted and approved then court of protection costs should be lower than it would be, if the lump sum order was eventually made I see and one, my, letting myself yes to say that in fairness to them, so what we would respectfully submit is that your Lordship having assessed the damages and erm, together with interest other than court of protection costs that the figure which we had mentioned and, and adjourn the matter for consideration of a structured settlement erm and that's the first figure erm, that, the, the second thing, is that there is money in court er we would ask for a direction of the balance of the money, the balance over and above the money in court which is an extra three hundred and six thousand, three hundred and forty pounds at the present stage be brought into court within a reasonable time which we would note is fourteen days, maybe the defendant would ask longer, we haven't discussed it. It's, it's four fourteen days yes certainly the first thing that we, we, we would respect is and suggest and this is a course which has been offered erm, erm, in order of other cases, er, we should ask that the er because of the adjournment necessary for investigation, the, the money will attract interest and we would ask for an order that the erm, the plaintiff is entitled to interest at the special account rate on any lump sum hereafter ordered to be paid, now what that means is that if at the end of the day the instruction say goes off and the conventional lump sum order is made, we are entitled to interest on the whole of that lump sum, if on the other hand a structured settlement is put into position and er part is either applied to the purchase of the annuities, in the commercial way to try and settle it or taken it back by the health authority, in consideration for self funding structured settlement, then we would only get the interest on the actual cash we have been kept yes a simple example if the contingency sum was to be six hundred thousand pounds, the balance were go to the structure, er we would have the er interest on the six hundred thousand pounds contingency sum only er yeah the purpose of this double arrangement is to try and arrange something of advantage to both parties erm yes and we, we would ask of that, but the next point and erm, is this my Lord erm at the moment erm the negotiations are erm proceeding in relation to the house, about which we have heard evidence, er, we could not properly buy it until it had been investigated by the court of protection and there was approval of that, and er it will be necessary for er consideration to be given as to how it should be purchased, in practical terms, firstly your Lordship has erm awarded a figure of seventy one thousand pounds, then there is the eighty thousand pounds on the existing house which takes one up to a hundred and fifty or thereabouts, and one sees that the special damages and interest thereon comes to something over fifty two thousand pounds to which these er parents will be entitled in the normal way, and if they were to apply, they might do and apply, that would go a long way to purchasing it and the court of protection, if it approved that might take the view that it would be fair to take something out of the notional aspect of damages for loss of earnings, because after all the plaintiff would have spent his earnings for housing and so on in the future, that, that is the sort of problems that now have to be tackled er what, what we would respect and suggest is er simply that there is liberty to apply erm. The sort of applications which we might wish to make in the future would be for an example that an interim payment be made out of the money in court or that the money be transferred to the public trust office, we don't know how we should proceed yet, but if we are at liberty to apply generally yes simply to put the matter into effect, and cover it, that apply to erm er, er how would one would at liberty to apply in relation to monies required for purchase of new accommodation my Lord is, I would respect that they are at liberty to apply generally generally oh well well cos what yeah we, we can then come back to the court, erm as, as other orders which we would seek and we would seek an order for costs, erm clearly yes after today and erm er, we, and that there are various other erm we ways in which the parties should be protected, erm, which I haven't had a chance to look at today clearly the costs of investigating, the proper costs of investigating any structured settlement would have to be dealt with on a later occasion, that it is somehow awarded, instead of protected that the plaintiff gives the defendant notice, seven day's notice before instructing any account on to advise on the structured settlement, so if the defendant thinks the plaintiff is being wholly unreasonable they can come back to court, quite at liberty to apply and get, make his point of the directions on the therefore within these context these are the sort of orders which, on the behalf of the plaintiff I can see and I would respectively suggest that we go away, draw them up and hand them in toy our Lordship and come back later in the day if we have difficult er difficulty in agreeing how so well no, erm, Mr Your learned friend very fairly set the sort of orders one would expect in the case of this sort, erm, can I only add one thing which erm there is still a, failing erm his right there should have been an adjournment this morning that the question of a structured settlement could be investigated, all these people who have indeed, it must be from the plaintiff's point of view as well, desirable that those investigations be erm carried out, with the greatest, greatest speed possible, obviously it takes time to er instruct the and so on and erm, it seemed er to me that it would be appropriate to include some of the I happen to discuss with my friend, erm providing for the matter to be brought back not later than a certain time well if,if both parties have liberty to apply that would really cover that wouldn't it?, I mean if, if you felt that if there were any, it's unlikely I think but you felt that there were any dragging of the feet in relation to the structured settlement you could come back and ask the court to make orders limiting time for further discussions or whatever you thought appropriate well certainly one could do that, but it, it, it would preferably if my suspicions if er imposing perhaps not the right word, er define er at the outset we erm the time limits that er are envisaged for the obtaining of magistrate licence or than that I'm I'm rather reluctant to do that because I have absolutely no basis for knowing how long negotiations of this sort are likely to take, erm and if I say well er that such negotiations must be completed by oh no an arbitrary date I mean I'm not saying that negotiations should be completed by a certain date, but that the matter should come back to court by a certain date so that there is therefore er er is a time, an incentive for the well what sort of time are you suggesting? well I haven't discussed this with my learned friend, but it seems to me a date sometime next term would be appropriate, er which would give another term,or so for the plaintiff side to investigate these matters oh the timetable which I as well will, will erm, would be about two months, the first step has to be taken by the defendant because we don't know yet whether they are prepared to oppose the structure, and if so, what sort of structure they would be prepared to oppose, erm, if and when, er a formal offer of structure came through, I would have little doubt that we could instruct accountants and get a response within a matter of weeks, sometimes one has to if they're doing an commercial structure within a week or so because the offer is only open for ten days yeah erm the the order which one, one I concern, maybe we can discuss if to, if, if the defendants were prepared to undertake to erm provide any as to instruct within twenty eight days from today, the matter should be list on and this convention on a Friday, Friday in about two or two and a half month's time from now, which will take us in the next term, I, I beg a suggestion I, er are you both in effect asking me to adjourn to a date which in a moment will agree on yes but that be the way my Lord I think so yes, erm if I can just say this I understand on the structures that a letter has been, er, an offer has been made by a letter erm of the structure and obviously there would be and that, that was done I think some time ago, erm and it might be my Lord how to what sort of structure is, but, but, erm I think from our side, erm we, we've taken the first step and we're going to yeah and, and therefore all potentially I think we'll be very much in the plaintiff's court, although should we, should we look at say the first Friday after the middle of January, something of that sort, I, I haven't got a calendar on my desk at the moment I'm afraid, but erm my Lord if we draft an order for your approval we can do the dates yes alright the only thing I will say certainly we let erm is that we can't move until we know what sort of structure is being offered, the general offer of structure is to take advice because we, we could then but unless we know what is forthcoming we don't yes well it would be very helpful if you'd like to draft an order, erm as I understand it Mr there's nothing which Mrs has asked for which you er contend I should er no my Lord er I, I should refuse him no, certainly not and er I await for liberty to apply for further to to fall out over anything yes then, then er, then, then, then we can come back yes, very well, thank you very much, well I better advised that all these take with me,thank you both very much for the first year of business or your first year of assessment, you made five hundred pounds profit from your business, is that what you've got in mind? Yeah. You might have bought capital things, a van, tools etcetera, which might, just for example, cost you five thousand pounds. Now in the in the first year of business, you'd be allowed capital allowances on that which is m may well er varies i in the proportion, but just say just say it's er ten percent, five hundred pounds, actually will you make that four hundred. And you get a ten percent capital allowance. For cars it's actually quarter, twenty five percent on the reducing balance. So in that first year, at ten percent, you'd be given a capital allowance of five hundred pounds, to be set against a profit of four hundred pounds. So therefore you'd have no liability but you'd have unused capital allowances to be carried forward to the next year. Now that wouldn't affect your pension at all. No. At that stage. And, because you'd made a loss, you could, out of your taxed pension, introduce a couple of hundred pounds into the business as a capital in introduction, to keep the business running, and it wouldn't affect the profit figures at all. Is that right? Yes . Well thank you . Would I actually get a tax refund You could . on your loss, if you make a loss . Or if, if that had been yes,i if you'd actually if you'd actually made a minus there, ignoring capital allowances, you'd just made a loss of four hundred pounds, then that loss would be for a year of assessment, and in that year of assessment, it could be set against your salary or pensions for that year a as if it was a personal allowance. So it would be worth running a small slightly unprofitable or non profit making business, to keep your tax bill down . Well, well yes, because People do. People do For a year or so. Oh yes, this is what the big business people, why they run far why one of the big business people used to buy farms. He got the pleasure of farming, and the losses were merely set off against er This is what used to upset the farmer down the road who, who was a genuine farmer. a genuine farmer. Now then, I've made, oh er before I go into the capital gains , er capital allowances you can claim a proportion of the capital allowances on a reducing balance, so er if a car for example costs you five thousand pounds, you'd actually be allowed twenty five percent in the first year, the twenty five percent would be reduced from five thousand, and in the next year you'd get twenty five percent off your balance until the five thousand pounds had been allowed against your profits. So it er could pay you in the first year of business to incur any capital that you could afford, because you can either get it against your first year's profits, or by not using the capital allowances, it's available for subsequent years' profit. Now then onto the capital, capital gains . Could I just say , if you're thinking about going into small business, for heaven's sake use the small business advice bureau. Oh yes, every time. Yes. They are wonderful. . I mean you're entitle you've got three interviews free. Yeah. And you only start paying after you, after the third one. Right. And erm a lot of them are retired business men, or, or people still, people in business who give their time freely to it. Very good. Yeah. And they are, they really work . Yeah. One of the other items of expenditure that could be in this er what did I say, five thousand pounds could be the your outgoings of your home, because you've used the spare room as an office. Or a garage as a workshop or a, a workshop as a workshop. And you can claim that proportion of your total outgoing. But if you've used a, a room at home, then you have to watch the capital gains situation, because if it's your residence, then for capital gains purposes when you sell it, it's exempt from income tax. But if you've used er part of it as a business, then that part isn't your residence. So when, if, if you were to come to sell your residence, they would knock off that proportion of the total er er which could in fact give rise to a small capital gain depending on how the er how you sold, because you might sell it at a loss. But if you've made up the gain at all, then since it's residential property, it's exempt. But that part of it which is used in your business wouldn't be exempt, and could give rise to a gain. It's bound to be small, if it's a small part of your house. And in all, in most of those cases it will be covered by the individual exemption of five thousand eight hundred per annum anyway. There's no real I mean you'd have to be in a real big way of a business and use a large proportion of your house for the gain on that proportion to exceed five thousand eight hundred. So in most cases, you can ignore it. But nevertheless, we have to say that it's so. And furthermore, with the council tax, you could come up against the question of business rating for that . The other thing is you can claim an allowance for using your room against your tax, that's one of the things you can do of course. As I say, a proportion of the, of your total outgoings which er related to that room, can be claimed as a business expense. Erm, wife's wages for answering the telephone. The phone of course is, is an allowed expense. What if you don't use it full time? I mean are you allowed to claim for Well it, it's that proportion of business use. I mean, you're only using it one day a week. Yes, yes. If, if you've got er a room, the re the tax inspector will say well, what proportion of the total would you say that room is? And if it's a quarter, And you What? and if you used it one day a week. Well, it's a er seventh of a quarter, if you . And that proportion is then allowed as a business expense. These people, young people often, who do some childminding, if they take in children, Right. is their house being used as a sort of business ? It could be. It could be yes. They could alter their tax status. Oh yeah, yes. If, if you're s setting up in business as a childminder, not doing it as a, for a friend, for just nominal expense. If you're attracting custom as a childminder, you really would be in business. And could then claim Pardon? If you've got more than two, you are anyway. You are anyway yes. You, you really are, yes. You, you've co you've commercially organized yourself, therefore you're in business. In which case you could claim the proportion of the house on expenses. Both the house expenses, the, the room and also provision of food and cleaning things for the presum for because of the involvement with children. You could be providing meals for them, I dare say they do do they, with child ? Mhm. Yeah. In which case, they'd go down as well. . But it is this facility of er of you determining that an expense is, is generally for the business, therefore it can be claimed, so If you, if you go over the fifteen thousand turnover, Right. how important or desirable is it to use an accountant? Er not at all, I wouldn't think. If you're rel if you're reasonably intelligent, no. Because all, all an accountant will do, is work on the information you give him. And he'll put it into a nice neat accountancy type form. But he can only, he can only do it on your information. If you're fully aware of all the implications of the tax and what er allowances you can claim, then super. If you're not absolutely up to date, Oh yes. your accountant is. The accountant will then earn his keep. That's right. But in most small businesses it really isn't worth their while having accountants in. Just keeping good accurate records. That's right, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. If, if your, if your total turnover was sixteen thousand, then the inspector of taxes would want from you an account which shows how your fifteen thou sixteen thousand has been arrived at, who's paid you this money because he looks at those and he checks their accounts to see they've received it obviously, that's what it is, and wh how is your five thousand pounds made up. And if y if of the five thousand pounds, for an extreme example, four thousand pounds of car expenses, he'd ask you in and say hello, what sort of car have you got then? You know. But if it's a reasonable amount, say five hundred pounds, he would merely look at it and say fair enough. Not worth challenging. Unless you . If you've got four thousand pound car expenses, he might question where you're paying the car expenses to . Oh indeed yes. Yeah. And whether you should be paying tax on it. That's right. Oh yes, yeah. Cos this is where the revenue gets its information about all sorts of tax . I mean if you're a builder and you receive sixteen thousand, of, of that there's a thousand pounds from Joe Bloggs builder whatnot, then the er the tax inspector will make a note, and pass on a little note to Joe Bloggs' file that, yeah he paid Bill Smith a thousand pounds, and i that then should appear in his accounts, and if it doesn't, then he's a ripe subject for being investigated. So this is the thing you have to have to bear in mind. This is happening all the time. Obviously you'd expect the revenue to do this, wouldn't you? Er the b the more you do in cash really, the more the tax inspectors look at it. Oh well, yes. Because the, you've no means of, of proving have you that I mean y er the best system would never be able to discover that er your figure of fifteen thousand pounds cash taken selling ice cream was genuine. Except that you do work on proportions. Ye oh yes. There is there is, yeah. Yeah. I mean if you're doing something like selling ice cream, Yeah, there is, there is yeah. they have a lot of people which they say, you should make from . You should be making within, within that range, within that, And if you're not, they want to know why you're not. But it's only if it's materially out. If y you know if you're content to, to pocket five hundred pounds, they'll never be able to discover it in fifteen thousand. If you made er if you pocketed ten thousand, of course, it'd stand out a mile. Because you've not, you're not er in the same relative position as the next . Anyway, I think I've dealt with that er er have I? Is that, is that good enough? Yeah. But taking your point about er, you know you've got, you've incurred these expenses anyway, therefore at the end of the day, you're not that much better off than er As I say,well if you do go into business on your own, be extremely careful if you are thinking of I wonder if I could go back to that point that er a couple of you raised this morning, about the transfer assets into the wife's name. You raised it, didn't you, Bob? Yes. And I, I must admit, it left me somewhat confused. And can I b make it quite clear, that if you transfer assets into your wife's name, it has to be a pucker transfer into her name. You can't retain control of it at all. And therefore it has to be a separate account. But what John was saying this morning, and I think it wasn't with respect it didn't come over clearly to me, as clearly to me as I would have liked, and I was determined to point was, what John was saying, the transfer of that, if that's capital, the transfer of that capital should be made into the wife's account. The income from it is then the wife's, therefore, if it happens to be three four four five, it is completely free of tax, whereas left with the husband would be taxed. But then what he then went on to say was, that since only the wife would be able to spend from that account, then put the money after it had been dealt with for the wife's tax purposes, into a joint account, on which both could draw. Knowing full well that a half would be the husband's, which would be taxable, the other half would also be the wife's, and would therefore be taxable if she'd already absorbed her three four four five. You don't need the separate account, you just You don't need a separate to sign that's all. Yeah. Mm. If she gives you authority to sign on . It was this separate account that confused me. Er it did me. Yeah. I mean I Yeah. it got me,, I, I didn't say any more, but er I, I'm sure it was because he realized that if it was a sole account, you wouldn't normally be able t a husband and wife wouldn't be able to draw on it freely, but as you say, you could. Yeah,authority to sign. She just gives you authority to sign. It has to be a genuine transfer of an asset. It has to be in her name. Yeah. Erm mm. Okay, I, I, I'm glad, I, I'm glad I was confused on that point, because if I hadn't been, I might not have have er I think he was worried about his ability to get his motorbike out. To get his motorbike out of his wife's Yes, it was used in connection with that wasn't it? Er Well, I'm going to leave it that we're very very early, I hope I hope you don't mind. I don't think you do, but er I really we've, we've Check that. Okay that's on. We er when you . Right okay. Forty three. That's it on now then. Yes. Well that's when I first started farming. Mhm. After I left the council, I worked for the council for ten years and then I stopped the council in nineteen forty six for I I telled you that afore have I. That's right. Yes. I couldn't leave them you see with the war on. Mhm. Well then in later years t baling came to be a great fashion in Orkney here. Mhm. And er J and W in Kirkwall started to bale hay in Orkney but it didn't pay for you to take to Kirkwall everyday to go to since the war. And if it was bad weather he'd to take them home again. So he asking me if I would do it. So he gave me a baler and I did all of Ork around about Birsay and Sanday and round the area here and baled their hay to them. And then he bought another baler and he worked with two balers. But there was no balers in Orkney then at all, that was the first balers that came here. Aha. So was that first baler belong to this chap in Kirkwall? J and W . Oh right? He was the agent you see for for International Balers. I see . And he was going to start old Charlie , a very old man. The grandfather of the people that has it now. And he wanted to help me to get under way you see but I wasn't long started farming . Mm. So then he bought another baler. Well then people started to get balers of their own and er d I didn't er get so much work. But I did the whole of Orkney for a while I did everything that could be done. And then later on combining started. And er for the and then at Rendall took on two new combines from Ma from the Massey Ferguson company that was them days. And of course they didn't hire with them. But the man who lived at in Rendall, he was going to retire. So I bought his combine from him. So I hired it out to people and work night and day when the weather was bonny, combining their barley and that. And then I bought another one and then I bought a third one so that I had three combines but there were no other combines on Orkney at all. That was the first of the combines. But what date it was I couldn't tell you but if you like to mind when when they first started. Aye. I think it'd been about nineteen sixty maybe but I'm not sure. Mhm. So And the and then the the council, they used to cut the roads with scythes you ken, cut the weeds on the roads. and I worked for the council so he spoke to me one day and he said, Will you cut the roads with a tractor and a mower. I says, Yes I'll cut them. So he in the paper then asking farmers, anybody had a tractor and a mower if they cut a certain section of the road. Well he didn't get much satisfaction with that for some people wouldn't do it. So I said, I'll cut all the roads in the West Mainland if you want. So they took me on and the to cut all the roads from Kirkland right to West Mainland right out into Kirkwall and . That's the end you see. Some other body did the East Mainland. And I cut the whole roads in three weeks time with a mower. And I oh it's you see three weeks to cut the Isle of Orkney mind. I wonder how long it takes them now to cut the roads. And they paid me sixteen and six an hour for the tractor and a mower and myself. And I started in the morning at eight o'clock and I didn't stop till midnight. I did sixteen hours every day, six days a week. I didn't cut on a Sunday. For I had to stay at home and look after me farm for . But me wife was good then you see and so was my son and they both worked the farm you see. And looked after it and I went to do this job for. It was . Mhm. Was it? So what happened afore the machinery came in? Did they actually have folk with scythes? Scythes. Aha all cut with scythes long ago. I mind it all cut with scythes. The the verges? Yes. The road verges ? Yes. See the road verges wasn't the same long ago, it was ditches. Mm. On the roads. But as i told you before, when the council started preparing for Hitler, in when I went on the council work in nineteen thirty six I had to fill the ditches in there. And make verges on the roads. And they widened the roads and tarmacadamed them. Well they only started tarmacadam in nineteen thirty six. That's the first they started in Orkney. It was the road was still there he had to do it and they were put there by the government. To be a road surveyor and a travelling foreman. And Peter was a super foreman. But he was coming for doing the borders Peebles and Selkirk down that and Roxburgh. And they were a they were you see. Mhm. At the job. Mhm. And they took me on in nineteen thirty six to help them you see. For I was looking for a job I was newly married in nineteen thirty six make a pound or two. Mhm. I see. So how did they work it with the scythes? Was the council chaps employed Council men put out with scythes. Yeah. And a lorry you see to cut the road verges. Mhm. Well they found they could do it far better with a tractor and a mower. Mhm. And then you see the the council I did that for nineteen years. And then I stopped farming in nineteen seventy cut it till sixty nine. Well the council started then and they took on machines of their own. Which they work on the same system as a as a rotovator. And it cuts up the grass in wee bits and instead of er making the roads better it makes them worse. For it cuts up the grass like farmyard manure, it chops it up you see and it rots quick and makes the grass grow quicker. But when I cut the roads it was cut with a finger mower. And it lay flat and it rotted the grass out. And it only needed to be cut once a year. Now when they cuts the roads every week if there was a watch as you go by, you see them cutting the whole time with a tractor. The council. How do you like to hear what it's costing now. The old fashioned way was the best way to do it. Mhm. And when they cut it with scythes, did they gather it? No no they left it lying . They just left it lying. Yes I rot it out you see. Yeah. To rot out the grass. Mhm. See anybody who cuts their garden with a mower, if you drag the grass off, it doesn't grow so quick. Mhm. But if you let it lie it manures it you see. Mhm. Till you put it down on a on a field. Mhm. And that's what's happening with the council you see. They cut it and chop it up. Mhm. And makes it s small. Mm. Well it rots quick. That's right. Mhm. So when you had your combines, did you did you go round the neighbouring peedie farms Yes they used to book for cutting you see. I used to go and cut their barley to them and I bought a thing for drying the barley too. Oh. A great big Leicester thing. That blowed the moisture out of it. Oh right. If you'd anything to put in it you'd blowed the a the dampness out you see and dried it. Oh. What they called a moisture extractor. I bought it from . Mhm. A very powerful thing. You couldn't stand in front of it there was that much power in it. Oh right. And was it mostly the bigger farms that wanted you Anybody who wanted combining I did it. Aha. Was it mostly the bigger farms or did the peedie ones Oh the peedie ones did it four or five or six acre you cut the and bag it the barley to them put it in the er the bagger on the machine you see. Mhm. But in latter days they came with a tank and they put it out and put it in a trailer you see but I just worked with bags when it was the first of it. Oh right. But you can't get bags now except plastic ones it was all jute bags then. I worked every day there was weather. Mhm. If it was a bonny day you worked on till sometimes three in the morning they were doing the . Mhm. You would work any hours to suit the weather you see. Mhm. Yeah. And it's never hurt me hard work. It must have been quite a spectacle though when the first combine came Oh folk folk came form far and near to see it. Is that right? Oh yeah. On a bonny day . Ah. It would be quite a unusual thing at first. Oh it was the first that ever started in Orkney, nobody ever thought You see before they used to cut their crop and set it in stokes. Then you used to build it in a stack and then you used to take it in the barn and thresh it. Going with a combine it's all done in one operation you see. The the barley's in the bag. Mhm. Then you do the it. Mhm. And three great big bins from from the they called them and I had three bins in my shed that I stored the barley in and I put the moisture extractor into them and it blew It had wee in it and it blew all the moisture out. And when you brought it for your cattle like the highland parkway making whisky. Mm. It fermented you see the cattle was for it. Oh. It fermented and made it very sweet. And it made your dairy cows milk awful good. Oh right. Mhm. We worked with dairy as well, seventy two dairy cows. Mhm. Right. I suppose the milking machines coming in would have been another They come in in nineteen forty seven , I started dairy in nineteen forty seven. I shifted to this farm in nineteen forty three but I d worked on the council in nineteen forty six. And then I start dairy work. Well dairy cows. Mhm. And bought a milking machine. Mm. used to start to work with the farmers you see but I didn't . Mhm. And put it in bulk tanks you ken taking milk away down in a tank I mean we used to take it away in cans. Mhm. Ten gallon cans. On a lorry. Mhm. Take it into Kirkwall. Mhm. Mhm. Mm. A big change from the from the milking by hand . Oh same as always. Yes You know I never milked by hand it was always the machine. Yeah . Do you mind seeing folk doing on the Oh yes er when I was at home as a wee boy everybody milked by hand and give their calves the milk then to drink. Mhm. But then later to suckle their calves, it's less work. Mhm. Everything their doing now is always making less work and that's why there's so much unemployed. Mm. They're cutting labour you see. Mhm. And there's no It doesn't help any for anything's so expensive to buy, the machinery. Mhm. like a combine now's about thirty or forty thousand. Mhm. Well that's a lot of wages. Mhm. And they's only used a s short time of the year. Mm. But it's only used in the bonny weather you see. I see. Tractors are used for the twelve months you see but not a combine. Mhm. More worthwhile getting a tractor right enough. Yeah. Yeah. That's true. And then i when I was was about the trout fishing in the loch here. Well my gra my great grandfather came from Sanday with his wife and a wee daughter. And my grandfather married the daughter and he came to . Harray Loch and the Stenness Loch were fishing. With the tourist trade so they always kept boats you see. Mhm. So we worked with boats those lochs for four generations. And my mother came from the farm along the shore and they were in the same position they worked with boats too. And you hired them out to the tourist trade. But in them days there wasn't many tourists came to Orkney for they didn't have transport, no cars. But latterly you see there's an awful lot of folks coming and buses on tours and that and the tourist trade on the Loch here's busy you know. There's more folk working don't make so much money on it. Mhm. Did your father do that when you were peedie farmers ? And my grandfather and my great grandfather. All did and so did my mother's side, they came from the farm up the L up the Loch I mean, that's where my mother came from.. Mhm. What sort of folk was it then? Was it gentry folk coming up for their holidays ? Yes they came for for their holidays. Mhm. And no they come from all the world and hire boats that people would make . All over the continent and all over the States and that. Mhm. Aye show you people you'll see in the Loch not last July but the July came to the States. Mhm. I can show you photographs of them in the Loch here. Mhm. Yeah. So when you first started hiring out boats was it where did you get your boats from was it Well I mean, they were handed down for generations. our forebears had boats see and you either bought new ones or repaired the ones that was there. Mm. But my family done that for four generations. Yeah. On the Harray Loch and the Stenness Loch. That's some while. It was a while ago. Yeah. That's some while. Were your boats made by a local boat builder? Well somebody built them at the boat builders in Orkney built some . Mhm. They used to they they started boat building in Finstown where the the builders is now you ken, what do you call them. Aye builders, what do you call them? Erm Well that's where they started boat building there. Yeah. At that big shed. I see. What do they call that place now? Erm has the dolphins, that it? Yes. Yeah. Well that's where they started building boats at . Something I can't remember what it is. Yeah. Yeah. I see so that was originally where the boat builders was. And they came with a and started there. Mm. was the name. And the same firm's working in Ayrshire yet. Descendant of them making making boats in Ayrshire. But I get people to the fishing here asking if the boat's built there. By . And all grand boats. They built awful bonny boats. But there a that builds boats some of them you're in the builds boats. Mhm. Right. And I suppose they would be wooden boats would they Aye, timber boats but now they're making fibreglass ones but they're not so good in the loch for the the water runs up them quicker they're so smooth. bodies are made in in planks you see and there's a rib in it. And it keeps the water from running up them so quick. Mhm. In windy weather. When you get strong winds here in the sometimes in the Summer. You get gale force winds sometimes. Mm. Did you fish much yourself then? Oh yes I always went fishing as a wee boy, me and my brother. Mm. We used to catch a lot of fish and it was always in them days you used to catch the trout in the Summer and you used to dry them on the on the dykes and hang them on the line like you could see haddocks and that drying. You've seen that on South Ronaldsay you know. Mhm. Mhm. We used to dry the trout here. I suppose trout would be your fish of the Summer rather than er Well get it Aye it was only trout you get in in the Harry Loch you see. You'd get a chance salmon. Mm. Yeah. What about Stenness, do you ever get the sea fish coming . Well it used to be the Stenness Loch was very good till they built the barriers. The barriers spoilt it. Is that right? Yes when the barriers wasn't there you see, the water came right out through Hoy and went right out at . And kept Stromness and Kirkwall clear of sewerage. Now you see it's blocked and good now is at . Or Mm or er Hoy. Mm. So it made the Stenness Loch polluted for the as pollution comes in the Stenness Loch and it f spoilt the fishing here. Since the barriers was built. That's my experience of the happening in my time. Mm. Do you mind actually, what would you ever get sea fish in Stenness Loch then ? Oh it's sea trout you get there. Come from the sea. Would you ever get like or sillocks . Oh yes you get sillocks. Mm. And Stenness it's sea is salt you see. Mhm. Would you get a mixture, would you ever get the freshwater fish as well as the sea fish ? Oh yes you get them too. They come through to the Aha. Must be kind of it's kind of unusual really Yeah both the sea and the Well when i was a wee boy the loch had never looked it before the barriers was built When I was going to school Well I was born I started a co school at nineteen eighteen. Well there was a air station at Howtown at er Stenness then for sea planes landing in the loch. That was during the the first war. And seen gillies going out for the Stenness Hotel s with sailing boats, I've seen eight leaving there in the morning I went to school. All on Stenness, they never went to Harray for there were plenty of fish in Stenness you see. But now you can fish Stenness all dy and you'll never see a fish. The sewage has spoilt it whether you can't come it it's all dirty. Yeah. Yeah. Mhm. Would that be where the local the local sort of gentry tourists stayed then at the Stenness Hotel ? there wasn't there's no other hotels, one at the but there's very few hotels then. Mhm. It was it was called Hotel then. Mhm. built it and he built he had the Kirkwall Hotel, the Stenness Hotel and the Stromness Hotel and an hotel in in Shetland. Mm. And the hotels he put up, he bought them in Glasgow, there'd be an exhibition hotel made of wood, built in Glasgow. He took two of them up here and took them in sections and built one in Stenness and another in . And this man came from the Highlands of Scotland. I remember him finding going to the school. His son took over the Kirkwall Hotel when he grew up. And his grandson did couldn't manage the hotels at all and him he went away he lived in Vancouver and Canada a while. And I don't know if he's living or dead . That was three I remember. Er. So did they just keep the hotel open all year for these visitors? No but they didn't use it for they didn't have a license then, they only got a license after the war you see. Oh I see. And the same the Kirkwall Hotel was kept open and the Stromness Hotel but the Stenness Hotel was closed. For they'd no work you see and the staff there was paid off. For I remember it all shut up. Mm. They'd no They'd no electric or nothing there you see and they'd water through a well. Mhm. But then the got the electric and the county water but the Sten the Kirkwall Hotel and the Stromness Hotel and the Stenness Hotel was all connected with the man's own private phone. He had his own private phone. For he quarrelled with the telephone people and he put another wire on the other side of the road to himself.. Good grief. He didn't th he didn't have a public phone that was a private phone he had. Mm. I remember the school. Mm. Heavens. So the Stenness Hotel has been up for a while then. It was up nineteen five I think for tourists or nineteen three somewhere ni Just after the turn of the century. Heaven sakes. But I think it was built maybe in er in the er nineteen eighty or early eight maybe nineteen ninety five or thereabout but it took a while while they got it erected. And they came from Glasgow. In sections. And they added onto it and made it bigger since. Mhm. But the last the first part of it that was built went on fire not long ago. Mhm. And it was rebuilt, that's the only part burnt out. And it built of timber. Which would be why it was such a terrible blaze, it ripped the roof right off . Yes. Yes it was all timber. Aye. I remember I remember first war starting. Oh I see. So did this fella keep visitors right up through the year or was it just the Summer Not in Stenness. Not in Stenness. But in you see travellers and that came up to Stromness and the Kirkwall Hotel. Mhm. And then he used the Stenness Hotel for visitors but there's not you got some. See in them days of the old steam boats and they came from er from Leith and Aberdeen. Mm. And then they had to walk. No cars you see. I remember people walking . Mm. pony and gig. Mm. Yeah. Would did the local folk get employment there? Oh yeah, that's what I'm saying, there's eight people used to go up I've seen eight people leaving the Stenness Hotel crofters were around go round gillying for for the Stenness Hotel. I've seen eight boat leaving there with sails on them. I see. When I was going to school. How big would these boats be? How many folk would they carry? Two folk and the gilly. There was two folk one each end of the boat and the gilly in the middle. They boats were anything from ten to twelve feet. That's the size the boats were boats you see. Mhm. Yeah. That's a making some of them fourteen feet long now. Mhm. And I suppose er l some of the lasses would have gotten work as Oh they all got work making food you see waitresses . and whatever Yeah. And chamber maids. Mhm. All the local people you see there's nobody goes to work now there's nobody to work. Mm. the houses, there's nobody. Yeah. There used to be big families I've seen down at there were six girls there. We'd have plenty of work for them you see. Mhm. And did did anybody ever hire out like ponies and gigs for this Yes everybody nearly had a pony and gig then. Mhm. Now then you see the motor cars came. Mhm. My father had a pony and gig. Every family nearly had it. Mhm. Right. And my father used to gilly in the Summertime. And my brother and my grandfather used to and my great grandfather they all took helped on the loch you see. Mm. Did you do that too? Oh yes I did it not long ago. I used to I gillied here. Mhm. Would that have been a kind of enjoyable job? Well if you were interested. Mhm. Mhm. The first pay they got was two the the first I remember people gillying for the Stenness Hotel, their pay was two and six and a gill of whisky. That was the days pay. Two and six. That wasn't much money. No. No no. Would that be straight from the folk that At they gillied for? Yes the or from the chap at the Hotel? No they they were paid from the people that employed them. Mhm. And they give them a gill of whisky that was supposed to be for their lunch you see. For their lunch? Yes. A gill of whisky's not much. And it was good whisky they got was too new made you see. Mm. Mm. Mm. Yes. And there were a woman in Stromness at a White Horse there were a garage in Stromness they call the White Hors. Well there were a woman that used to have have that and they called her Maggie and she used to serve drinks there, whisky and that was before Stromness was voted dry you see. After the last war you see it was voted dry. Did you know that? It was voted completely dray and the people who wanted to drink had to go to to Finstown. Well Maggie at this place they called the White Horse and it was two er two pence for a nip. And they used to heap the glasses . And she always gave them good measure and did an awful trade. But then they voted Stromness dry you see. There was no drink in Stromness of any kind. Was that just after the second war or just afore it? The first war. Oh the first war. Ah right Right and they didn't get a license back to the second war. Mhm. I remember Stromness dry for I was I used to drive a car then I used to pick up folk and take them to the Pomona and take them back again. But I used to do work for customer down the garage there he used to have two cars to hire and I drove one in my spare time. Oh right. I see. So was Stromness voted dry after the first war then or afore it? After . After the first war I think it was. Oh I see. And there was a big distillery in Stromness you see. Ah. I can't remember the people that'd be in records, there used to be a distillery there. I've heard of that right enough. Cos there Yeah. was a bottle of of whisky from that distillery went for a huge p price at one of the big Yeah. auctions South. Aye. I and I can't mind forgotten. I can't minded there. Mhm. Right. I see. The man was heard of him. I don't know he's the same s in South Ronaldsay or not would he be different s? No idea. Would it be the same a draper in South Ronaldsay is it not. Used to be. That's right. Yes that's right . Are they there yet? No. Er well not the same folk. Oh different ones. The shop's still there, Yeah. it's kind of it's it's calls itself the Treasure Chest now. Well that man bought the distillery in Stromness and broke it up and sold the timber out of it. Grand timber in it you see. Aye. It was a big place. Mhm. I see. And I can't remember what they called the whisky. They shipped it South you see. Shame though you know. Yeah. Mm. Stromness must have had a big temperance movement then. Yes. And the herring fishing in Stromness they used to walk with the boats right across the pier. They would walk over the boats, the herring boats, herring fishing. And then it stopped and they went to Stronsay then. Mhm. But Stronsay fishing from the herring fishing. You've seen old photos of that. Yes. Mm. Quite amazing the number of peedie boats just available. I'll show you a photo here in the water right up at the c the cathedral. You ever seen it? No. I'll show you a photo of that. Oh brilliant. Is that just with a high flood? No there was no houses there. Oh I see. Oh right. Back road wasn't there. Ah right. Oh yes I'd like to see that. That'd be great. . See folk well maybe bairns plying in boats right up to the cathedral. You'll not mind it like that though do you? No but I mind it Well the power station, I mind it no road there. Great Western road. Mhm. I mind no road there. For I worked at the council they were trying to make a road there then. dumping rubbish in that end you ken driving the council lorries. Mhm. They built the council garage with built for the when Scott came here. Mm. And he built a new house at and they call it Scott's House yet. Mhm. And they call the road Scott's Road. Is that finished? No it's a wee while to go yet. They call it Scott's Road you see. Mm. He's a marvellous man, he came to Orkney to improve the Orkney roads. That's about him and Peter , they're two men who could do it. Mhm. They understood what they were doing. Mhm. Mm. Well there must have been a lot of roads. You know that they did improve Well they made an awful lot of new roads since you see. Yeah. Well if it was a narrow road then they made it twice as wide. Mhm. I mean you could hardly pass two buses on it then. Mhm. And the road here was just grassy road grass road in the middle of it. Mhm. Now it's a having buses on it. Mhm. Since the war Orkney's changed terrible. Mhm. Mm. Yes the amount of machinery and changes in farming and everything it's all just Yeah. all the all over really. Mm. Mm. What about going right back again, what was what relation of i of yours was the the had something to do with breeding horses is that right? My gran my father Ah. start the what they call they what did you say the name of it again? Horse breeding Central Horse Breeding Society. Yeah. And then when he gave it up when his wife died, he stopped it then and they changed it into the West Mainland Horse Breeding Society. Mhm. Mhm. And they used to wh Why they used to work this breeding you see, they used to ad well some people in the South stallions they wanted to travel to Orkney to make money and advertise them. Mhm. And they used to call a meeting and this horse breeding society would have called a meeting you know the ones that looked after choosing the horse they were gonna select for this certain season you see. They started in April and they travelled on till July. Oh. And was it his job to take the stallion round Well the man travelled round the man travelled round with a pony, riding a pony and the stallion walking alongside you see. And er they like I told you before they used a whole a crafty in Kirkwall. That's where the Phoenix is standing right now there was great big piece there and they held a crafty there in the very first early in April. And all the people that had stallions South been left in Orkney all Winter somebody had kept them. They all paraded in there. On a certain day. And I used to get in when I was a young boy and see them when I started working on a farm I always to see them. It was awful interesting to see bonny horse. Mhm. Mhm. And then you see they when the crafty was by they used to set out the next day, some maybe taken for the West Mainland and some taken for and some were . And they went round on their rounds and they called along every eleven days. Why every eleven days? Well that's when your when your mare came in season. Ah. And then when you put her in foal,served her with a stallion. Mhm. When they served her with a stallion you see, it was three weeks elapsed then before she if you didn't go and foal with that service it was three weeks elapsed afore you game again. But if she took the stallion at the end of that three weeks, he came back in another eleven days in case er she wasn't settled you see. I see. Mm. And is that when they would say that you know, they had so many good foals the year before or Well you see then er say a man owned two stallions here, and he'd two grooms travelling. Well er they they took so much money when the end of that when they stopped travelling the horse when they was finished the season, they went round all the farms and collected what they call the fairways money. Which maybe be two pound for every mare. Or three pound. At the end when the mare proved in foal, you'd pay another three or maybe four pound. Well they went round then the spring and collected all that from the farmers but the men that travelled the stallion went to the house first to see the mare was in foal. For some farmers would say their mare wasn't in foal you see. And the grooms went round to make sure she was in foal before he took the money. And they would collected maybe maybe a hundred and fifty pound for the season for travelling round. Mhm. Mm. And was that their main wage was that how they got paid ? Well that's that's that's groom what they call the groom, then he had another job he did in the Winter, he out in the council with the roads or any kind of job like that. Mm. But he usually travelled the stallion for three month. Mm. Well they started in April. April, May, June and July you see. Mhm. And some travelled the horse walking it, but some rode a pony. But in later years they got a gig and it was far easier on the pony you see with a big heavy man riding a pony is awful tiresome on the pony you see. Mhm. Mhm. And would commitments in a recent task. . Rights of way are an important part of our heritage the road network should not be allowed to degenerate further. All is a Labour activity by all people do things cost, unless of course special clothing and then awfully difficult and making it people's education and general health. We feel it's very important that our rights of way network should be maintained and improved where possible which is why we are proposing an issue thank you. I'd like . Thank you Mr Chairman I would agree that there was two or three on the question of . We will outside the erm the supporting it if it wasn't for the fact that we understand that the officers would have a great deal of difficulty spending that money. Erm these are not schemes which you can cut out with an A B or a C solution. Every one is different, everyone has its own pattern of possible rat runs and they take a great deal of er er hesitation, a great deal of divided effort as near as life as possible in the first instance. Erm to prevent that in fact erm we understand these people a great so er that is one of the reasons why we . The second reason just if I could point erm we only learnt this morning of the landscape design erm where we understood that savings were being made by the four members of staff organisation. We understand that because of lack of work they will now only give two of those records and what people are saying and obviously really good. Finally,cutback period erm especially the fire so trouble erm er gladly we'd like to apologise for his momentarily outburst because of . you never er not in fact the Committee, we do in the eyes of when majority . and that's what we're talking about because the reason why that wonderful piece of work didn't go through priority to set up . Now if we go back to two years ago on the question of whether or not we should accept erm almost don't think you'll get any reply the professional advice of an officer, two years ago or so we had the professional advice of an officer, we were looking at yearly report of the er inspector and . strong of er the er a number of firemen of the first er out . And what was the action of the majority party then, over and it was to receive the report. That's what it was. We might have said no but that's what it was because of pressure put on this side . erm erm concentration put on of where pumping into us, there came back a further report on how one would win that and as I remember it, the professional advise was we should have twenty but Charles and his I nearly said men but progress erm. They suggested ten. Now I think if you look back on this report famous report that didn't through. That started because I think Charles saw that they were eventually going had to give way to twenty additional fire fighters and they were looking for safety within the service . Now if you're a majority party you can instruct officers to come up with a specially paid reduction pol you pay for the policy, so you can then structure the system or look at the service and come up with a reduction, come up with an expansion . or come up with a whole so whole position. They need to know that they can give you your professional, their professional attention they will not make it compulsively, the majority party of what went wrong this is you were no longer the majority party . Chairman, I have followed your information and can I direct er Councillor to item three point four on item four today whereas if we see that asks that the full year effect of those er financial fire fighters are concerned, we wanted to an additional ten and that was the position that . ten and if you can discuss the fire ten later on. That's what the Inspector says we should do. Council asking Mrs and Mr erm arrangements save you then making no comment and going back . Sorry Yeah. Mr . I think you are asking him to worry about . Erm thank you gentlemen, we were asked by Mr of the Conservative budget that if the budget of er cuts and that really considering. If that money in that it does come into the policy and the guideline here and I erm he accused us of putting out er press releases talk about council tax and this may be popular with . Well I strange erm accusation yes we will be, we would keep the council tax down if I am that that would be a popular message to give out and so having accepted our below er the guideline figures they did take this into consideration but we have a budget that has elements of growth in industry. It does er include a past policy and the Planning Department includes two hundred and forty thousand for erm various statutory fire which seem so any fire growth over and above our list are based on the judgement panel that we are . That was . ever important . and our growth is offset by savings and they are not budget, they are not cuts in services, they are savings which of efficiency, erm they would would should and would happen erm in any case. The particular ones, substantial one is erm down two major schemes. Er this will not cut in any budget erm as as can be seen from our sheet. I'd like to erm two constant er budget, we feel that reinstatement of the capital design staff salaries is important if not because . Design work cannot be turned on and off er it is er feel flowing continuous process and we must be particularly must be er as well as practical work in the future. I hardly dare mention traffic calming but it does seem to be the flavour of of the month at the moment but to see that the existing work doubled by and I know it's going to cost the county erm this but if you don't want to talk about the children and their crime it is er traffic calming it certainly is a and I do believe I think what we've all to pay for this erm that we will perhaps it will have to come from somewhere and again of the Council Planning Department as we we do erm continue . We are multiplication work and there isn't should be tackled and we were very that we cannot do this without and therefore we accept the grant grant fifty thousand in these four counties planning service which I would say servicing. erm District Council to erm support the er service and we will come back into the thirty thousand council. So we are putting towards will happen anyway does and I . Now Mr . I'd like to say this is not going to be a very anyway. Have another fire service erm we have the Labour mix and budgets. We want back to basics. this year I'll quickly run through one or two of the er various aspects of er Mr commented on money being thrown at the problem. I think produce need to increase cash across the whole of the County very very . point of order, the point that I made make it on this side is that we are not against the expenditure . Richard made a very and I wish he had the confidence about our proposals. Here, here. Robert said that we to spend money said the opposite so doubtful Oh they'll spend the money don't worry. . budget our priority for our manifesto. That spend a proper sum of money on we spent a lot more but we don't District Councils hundred thousand each. That about thirty traffic if that be proposed use the money for, we do not . We will also provide money for public transport start the way. We would hope to make large contributions each years and we would hope deliberate non standing this year for an increase year's . We are able to achieve all of this and priorities in other areas such as the nursery education. And yet we are not which Conservative because at the end of the day you will be an S S A which is expenditure or ie . Thank you Mr . Mr if you wish to speak. Chairman . Mr I think that all that can be said, has been said Chairman and I think that prudence is the leadership today.. Mr Just to say a few words fire as usual he didn't actually those those to erm . The Conservatives are inconsistent, I mean that when they wrote the policy, when they were looking at the guidelines this erm I can't remember off hand what it was on page fifty. Erm the Conservative thirty three million and the Policy Committee is that Labour was actually sort of lowest. Erm in terms of Community budget so this Environment Committee and Conservatives gone down to below sort of seventy two million so we are not actually getting any sort of . Conservative actually being down to the traffic calming . I know it varies, erm we are rather identical we are actually very close together and erm hope that with the erm C C County what Labour's put forward to the basic budget er . it do. It is the sort of sensible budget. but in it's balance erm mix and match. But it is traffic calming, passenger transport, town sentiments. I mean I can tell you . . provide something on doing erm etc., and we call it we call it but what it is actually doing, it has halved the traffic, that's what its about, giving us the back pedestrian, back but the traffic still come through. is that traffic calming or is it town centre enhancement because it happens to be in the middle of the towns. There are connections passenger transport is one way of calming a number of cars that you've got erm on on our roads. Now I suggest Chairman that there are number of on your paper which probably the Committee could really of this stage I think the sort of important ones. Labour is what the Policy Committee wants. It was asked for and arranged to be put erm forward. Erm if the Liberals wants they want to stop seventy two point six er million but they seem to do rather than go to seventy three point three which is what they want to reach, what they want to look at originally. Er for the Policy Committee erm Committee. If you want to stop at seventy three point six million erm pounds we're quite happy to erm and I suggest Chairman if if we don't get the the main er growth savings through at the next few minutes of voting that perhaps a rather longer lunch erm maybe there would be some . Thanks for your. Everyone's agreed certain amount of er common er take resolutions numbers one, three, four, five, seven and eight. . Take resolutions numbers number, one, three, four, five, seven and eight. Those in favour. . . for a vote on papers item number two, resolution three. Those in favour. Those against. I move on to Labour motion one six. Those in favour. Those against fourteen. Erm move on to Conservative motion number two. Paper one all those in favour. . Those against. one, four five, sixteen. number six. All those in favour. six. Those against. . Thank you. We now move on to Liberal Democrat motion number two. Those in favour. Two, three, four, five, six, seven. Those against. One, two, three, four, five . One . Twenty the fact to resolution number six. Those in favour. . Those against. . Excuse me Mr Chairman motion the erm . I was Mr Chairman as all the budget process have been perhaps so perhaps some budget Direct Committee when in fact . to to take on item number five. Thank you. Before going to item five, can I just ask items. General item two straight after number five back to the budget which allow us a couple of petitioners who have been so far. yes. We will therefore planning to present the petition. Thank you Chairman erm take this opportunity to the Committee to sub Committee erm back early erm year three. What we are asking Eventually when all of the information is gathered in, we're asking you to quite simply reject this . The vast majority of the organisations all of the Civic organisation in the area are strongly opposed to it. vast majority of the population five mile radius of the proposed site are against it. Your County Chairman has received your personal letters rejecting this planning application o of a maximum two point six represents fifteen thousand residents object to it. Planning has had some two and a half thousand letters of objection to it. Members of the Detailed Planning has objected to it grounds. nineteen thousand three hundred people have objected to it on petition . Nobody seriously wants this installation. This is an installation that this County is not required to have one waste from four Counties. Initially, I would stress initially the reference side of has to be ten per cent of the the authorisation the best thing since sliced bread. showing you the reality ten per cent the rest comes from all over the country. You will see photographs behind you showing medical waste international lorries going into which is a whole year's circle. Bringing stuff into the . Residents not prepared to tolerate . We are facing initially something like a hundred and twenty tons of acid gasses from this plant. The local whole year . The current Royal Commission report indicates that this type of er, this likely to be on average twenty times the current legal limits within a year to two years we will be looking at receiving it which is ten times plant producing two hundred fold the legal limits dialysis. We in a world complementary medical evidence showing it does state in effect that the have our local populations. Even in this country where advances be in minimal amounts of impurities that can go through simply not the population prepared to allow this to happen to us. Surely in this day and age the all we hear governments consultation documents, even your own consultation documents has been put out to the er future towning plans. People must be allowed say in the development of their own environment. This is what we are here for, it's what your Council is here for. Your care and our representatives to look after the interests of the population within your area. Not blue circle, we have to have allegiance to them . H M I P which your officers show er or hold up to advise you technically, never get turned down on authorisations submitted to them. Er the Daily Telegraph recently made this item clear. We are asking you for your protection, everything is well documented and clear. Devastating environmental public house er disaster for the population. When you consider the full planning application, please turn it down. I would take the opportunity to present a petition to the County Council containing over six thousand signatures strongly object to this development and asking you to use all of your powers to protect this. Chairman er first of all erm local is not erm having said that my straight run at the moment, erm future the decision of the erm Council Golfing Application . Yes er er made an important point, er the application is not in front of the Committee most important that will be says anything that would prejudge consideration of that application. When it comes to really assist those who er of the so I I would be grateful if members would remember that this item is on the agenda because first of all petition received and secondly because there is no explanation in that not the time to discuss whether this application should be . Given the constraints of the Chairman a question . Chairman on a point of order . . . Erm can we just refer to the general item paper as you will see they are not set out to be resolutions will committee er by the County Councils er paragraphs three one to three three set out the latest position on the planning application. Erm essentially we we are sticking sticking to more information about environmental environmental issues expect er er within the ne next few months. Therefore we will get a statement to reporting to the sub Committee on this particular application until probably . Er section four sets out the background of public concern to the amount of and the number of of er latest objection which we have received . As the petitioner pointed out two and a half thousand erm letters of objection. Erm just to refer you to the last sentence, paragraph four three, er to to assure members of the Committee that those er representation whether the erm application . Section four four onwards talks about erm the affecting the environmental and makes a point that will be we as officers have been with people on this and that is quite unusual er at this stage of the process. Erm we have also asked for information from er the Action Committee and if necessary erm satisfy the used, we will commission because we value our four. And turning finally to Section four background to the first half of this motion er relating to consultations. certainly prior to the nineteen ninety two legislation erm in relation to what was er the was er required application but as you see since nineteen ninety two legislation, that petition was changed erm and in terms of the resolutions, we suggest that recognise the people concerned Hertfordshire and that they are taking into account the applications erm that we continue to work basically with H M I pollution aspects and that we respond to the Department of the Environment er expressing our concerns er er erm way in which er consultation has changed and in fact us. call Mr . Er,th thank you Chairman erm I not aware of the very great public concern erm in the neighbourhood members Committee of the Council of our main endeavours in relation er to the which I believe has now been received. Well I'm a little bit concerned, however, that er the letters I had er reflect a rather exaggerated view about we will say yeah or nay or may. Er to to an application with nature a and I I wondered if the, if this gentleman regular planning er could describe how exactly the responsibility for all this application er which splits down between ourselves er inspector of pollution and indeed the Secretary of State. Thank you. Mr . Mr Chairman er Mr Chairman . Frank . Erm as far as er premises concerned that will be the responsibility of H M I . Er premises of this size er this er erm integrated bridges control research and my opinion County Council relation society. In terms of the planning petition erm as you know this er application has been referred to the Secretary of State and he has informed us that he wants us to carry through erm and consider a consideration of this and make a a recommendation er of it. At that stage he will either indicate that he wishes to application in the local term action before he will authorise the County Council to take the decision on it. Erm if we having considered all the information, both on the planning side and on the pollution side have been agreed er with the application. We have proved if er having considered all the erm information if we are not happy with it we can produce . If we refuse it of course it will be our acceptance to the to submit an appeal which would then er ought to be by Secretary of State. Er it it take a view on that er appeal he will take into account the er development plan forces which were in force at the time. And at at the moment of those who are ponses in the County Structure Planning and District Planning erm which have no specific proposals relating to er consideration funds. Erm and possibly in terms of emerging waste level which of course is due to be er reported . Thank you Mr . Yes Mr Chairman, erm I shall move the obvious suggested resolution with amendments which I wish to be circulated in the last . Erm and er I I I I'm planning to accept the Labour amendments and the Conservative addition to them. Er Er this motion is not an attempt to preempt applications Mr Chairman come before us that's Mr said time is indicating for the first time that er September might possibly be months. Er I was very conscious that we must be careful, say do nothing and certainly to accept no resolution which might even appear we don't have a on planning application and this is . Erm from the content of the post bags in the past three months members of this Committee are well aware of the anxieties of the people but the circle, building waste incinerator on the golden edge first of the City . The volume of the testing matters which have received my . Erm the variety of the words which protestors have to stress their anxieties, erm have shown er this is not an orchestrated campaign, although it is er very well organised . Most people have been worried that this incinerator would be too close to the school in which their children are taught. Their homes, shops, their community centre and centres and to the place in which they work. Protests have come not only from all over the but themselves considerable numbers and from further afield, I think Wolverhampton was my . I have been impressed by the variety of the protesting letters, almost without exception. People have written sincere, angry and occasionally abusive letters. Erm I take all the motions, first to try to assure these people that we shall, we are that will be taken and I hope that that er has been achieved. Erm and also because I saw no early prospect of the application coming reports. Erm I turn to the last paragraph motion Mr Chairman. When an application is enforced Community is proposed then positive measures should be taken to advise residents of the proposals. That raises matters principle because under the present law it is a public very large vehicle which has to be alert . I hope that the last part in my motion now translated it was suggesting a resolution by officers with the amendments regards was further Department of the Environment who actually prevent such a situation . Erm and our our next resolution in motion with the . Thank you Mr Chairman . Is your resolution formally accepted? That's formally accepted. Mr . Chairman erm I'd start erm by for the Labour Group motion committee like people also who erm have actually sort of written to us letters repeat what they said but the vast vast majority that erm have expressed the genuine concerns of the people who have left work . Er a pity too and er also the villages erm in the in the area erm which I know very well and my and the Letchworth er Letchworth itself. Erm I only want to say it is very important that we must do nothing to sort of prejudice the outcome of the consideration of the planning application environment cases sub committee, erm at a later erm stage. Erm this week the three routes fully abrupt committee have in fact sent a letter in their joint names to the press in North Hertfordshire er trying to say erm what the position is at the moment. Er say that the application has not yet been considered. Erm that it it it will be erm that by law the County Council must consider any planning application which is made erm to it for a particular site. We don't use sites, we don't make planning applications, applicants do but we have to consider that we can't say we don't like it, go elsewhere . We do have to consider it. We are also not allowed to take into account records of . We have to look at the application er on its merits in the particular erm circumstances and I'll tell you something which we will certainly have to do erm and I I will say, I will say this in sort of due respect erm, because we are grateful to them that we can see. Er I to the campaign which is taking place. Erm perhaps also say how urgent a lot of people but perhaps there ought to be sort of changes in planning law er changes indeed which erm this Council has sent messages to government about erm er previously. Erm Chairman just amends the er motions put forward by essential to accept. I in number one we did want to replace the word by erm reassures them because we that just for the strength of this. Erm we are reassuring everyone who has written to us in the that all of the will be taking it fully into consideration when the money application is is considered. In relation to erm the second erm erm motion erm we did want to add at the end that Her Majesty's Inspector of Pollution incessantly environment . erm etc. Not only having gone to higher standards of were but also looking to account a motion which has already been passed by the Environment Committee on the fourteenth of September nineteen ninety three and what I was basically saying was that erm incinerator should come to That's Life that the current E E C proposals on erm that that and I know that's not a rule but in fact when Her Majesty's Inspectorate of Pollution is actually considering this want to draw their attention to a motion which in some cases were saying that we would expect the highest possible standards if those developments were to go ahead with the . So if we we just want to make that erm clear erm number three er we wouldn't like to add a fourth erm motion and the Labour resolutions it is erm it's actually end of it should be, consideration should be given . There is a reason for this Chairman is that erm I think erm many of us and I am sure we would be deserved by recent articles in the Daily Telegraph er particularly the one that appeared last week which erm referred, I can see in the report, that it referred to a report which is very critical of the work of Her Majesty's Inspectorate of erm Pollution. Er that certainly alarmed me because erm I certainly . H M I P erm there which job we were doing. What we thought, all of us it's going to actually this report item which is and I think therefore because we certainly haven't had time . discuss this with officers, the same came up over the weekend. Erm that we consideration of be given by independent Technical Advisor on environmental damage. Erm er the costing involves we will just say we ought to be for the first fortnight. We would also consider the resolution . Thank you . Mr . Thank you very much Mr Chairman thank you very much for giving me a chance to speak this afternoon. There is just one observation I wish to make to the Committee this afternoon and it actually goes about the whole issue of the planning aspect of what's gone on. There was indeed information given to Labour on this but that application proceeded by the Council and I think some of the officers have omitted that in the last few weeks. It's just one word of warning that we actually strengthen the application received to the future to make sure again. Mr . question alone I don't know whether the officers would want to respond to that last comment first. is that that the consultation is a problem the legislation which takes away the requirement for several developments to to promote valuable time and be advertised prior to the application so the first most people knew about this application was after this this opportunity prior to that to discuss it with the development before it was submitted. Could I just follow on what Mr was saying earlier when he introduced the he he referred to that er are no references to incinerators in the structural plan. Would this planning application be regarded as a of the . As far as this Planning Application is concerned . The Planning Policy which applies purely to the and the in case the sub Committee have already er discussed with etc etc for this. As far as the other aspect is concerned, that there is no something that would have to be dealt with on its merits taking account of the arguments for and against. As I said you mention it may be something which is out of our field and we'll have to make sure that the arguments for and against the problems the problem . O K. Mr . The question erm we are told that we have got to take into account the actions of er true to me that the er reference site, therefore, we must carry on as er . I think we are looking at the advantages and disadvantages of erm various types of problems that might occur. Really one of the things at the examples of where it's happened in the past. I would expect er I would expect the to actually provide us with the small details of of and not necessarily same . . That's very kind of you Chairman . Thank you. Chairman er case reports to the letter, the joint er er that's on our er under the names of these three departments . I think that's very useful. I think a number of us were becoming very concerned indeed that this was eventually becoming a political area and this this is dealt with in this way . very very important issue considering most of the issue er the environmental interest . Er that started with show that we are whatever our issue and obviously resolve er a very for the benefit of of . Er I will er be taking up with Oliver the question of report erm since it is a critical report er er like take the place of Oliver to ask the government what their views are er on the performance and the truth is . I think that will be of better use this time er Frankly some of the other things that have been going on weeks. Er I don't think er erm difficulty of er amendments that would be made er in a couple of words here and there er the people very specific at what we are attempting to achieve problem with that. I thought Chairman that er Mr is saying that er they would consider any consult with the Union on some of the statements that have been made and I quite er the item D is in fact necessary that er I I I gave no arguments, it should be given consideration if it is come to that and er it will come back presumably to form a proposition of deal with it then. Er Brian has already confirmed that er he will support the Conservative resolution which in effect recognises that some of the changes in government regulation over the past er decade has not always turned out for the best er this County in particular order er other asked the Secretary of State to re to relieve some of the pressures that generates in that area and it's for that reason er to move the resolution er that asks that the consideration be and the reinstatement of the general er er development order which would have the er and earlier for the planning application on the basis of er being mainly on friendly . Thank you erm I think that's all I'm concerned with except to say that I wrote er to a little church spelling what it is today er really into consideration on its this proposition so that we can ensure all of the issues with er our requirements. . Does anyone wish to any further comments? Right I propose to go through and go through one of our Green. So the first one to start resolution number one. same time . Would it be possible to report that as unanimous? . I wish now to move on to item two. That's a couple of petitions to be made to . We were asked petition. Mr Chairman residents of there was recommended to, however, if transport which has caused the residents to draw . How many points we consider the transport as inappropriate in and effectiveness. We also because County Council to address and introducing traffic calming measures such as er costings or . and as a result of this petition the public and association. first and I am sure we can afford transport spending school . Thank you for listening to me er petition. Thank you very much. comments approach . Well now we go to Mr . thank you situation are appointed jointly by the County Council and the County and effectively these consultations and of that er appointment and the following the last Committee we agreed with the er detail and of the and we also agreed that we would not go ahead with the which until we have seen the result of the consultation and therefore there still outstanding as whether we wish to action the not. The report deal deals with a fair detail and concentration and then on page four this the erm main results of the different elements of the result and though grouping them into those had high levels of sport er to those that were where now the officers and a I think that if you could see that er er there was a considerable census for those from the officer part of the . The erm the views coming back from the consultant were obviously er so follow occasions but not dramatically so. So that there will be general consensus whilst they do represent a reasonable view of the people . The erm main issue that are not reinforced that we are trying to determine an overall strategy that will last for the next ten or fifteen years. We are not talking about a a package of measures which we go and try to do tomorrow. It is absolutely clear and I want to make it clear that we may not be doing anything tomorrow or the next day, we'll all be, we'll all be try to understand and determine is how we will deal with the issues in as and if traffic develops over the next ten years or so and that strategy will then form the basis under which we will try to resist city area that we did not see there. That's the key point ought to go across . On the general the City and District Council met er and erm agreed to in fact upon consideration to the joint meeting er a joint Committee . On Tuesday the eighth of February as I understand it that meeting then will report to a Council meeting of the Council, so I would not wish to put forward the suggested resolutions that are on the order paper, er I think I would want to suggest to you ladies and gentlemen for decisions today to whether you wish or not and then I would suggest that the appropriate decision is to await the of the City additional Council and therefore bring this matter forward to our Committee on March the twenty ninth. The only one other point I do want to say is is on . It has become apparent on some of the issues, some of the comments that we made that was if I could call it the you'll know what we're talking about and I don't if we are talking about the there was there was a point somewhere where talked about ing an increase or short of journey time along the ring road and this has been taken as I understand to be that we are setting out an increase of speed er traffic on the sections of road to a junction and that's totally in force and it was either. Well the accident was was that if you look at the junctions along that section of road and carried out qualifications junction, you could release, reduce delays from junctions and effect of your making your total journey in a shorter time making that route slightly more attractive. We would go through a great deal of trouble to ensure that the between junctions did not suffer for be and any proposals that we agreed, you agreed to make fact the existing services . I just thought it was worthwhile making that point as it is made to be very . Mr Thank you for . Erm only support it. This saga since this recession has been a sorry tale. It was beginning with the disasters on one way systems and then of course a panic decision to do further research into the so called traffic problems of St Albans. The very work of the Consultants in associated with the road construction industry. Nothing particularly wrong with that but that does show where they are coming from when they are looking into being with as I call it the so called traffic problems of St Albans. And then there was a consultation exercise,consultation exercise which will . Relevant groups of Consultant, those in the for some reason are not despite the fact that the abortive scheme. Would it involve belonging to the residents who were Residents Association but was worth that. There were the City questions, you asked if traffic jam. It mostly comes up to you with a clipboard and says 'Do you mind sitting in traffic jams, yes or no'. . What is amazing is that two didn't seem to like that. . And then look at the conflicting interest, whereby the Consultants did their own report and didn't research into it. and I think we must recognise that it is only that many of the questions and questionnaire had they been displayed of what they wanted to propose. And then there was the attempt not to issue a questionnaire to every household but to reserve the questionnaires in the Town Hall for four week days Saturdays to will honour the people who didn't actually have Friday who were at home perhaps walk in to the City Centre you might be able to pick one of these up and then there was the problem distrib in distributing the questionnaire because despite of the assurance given to the consultants they were nevertheless distributed amongst the numerous St Albans and believe you me even those likely people who did go to the press do sometimes for every that we having suddenly fully congressed to see whether perhaps there might be a consultation questionnaire lurking within it. And then there was the farcical, farcical final report I I used to take will be the first to endorse and interpreting those statistics at least in my case course, but I blush what these Consultants have done, let's give you a few examples, sixty five per cent, you see on page three think that changes are necessary, they were asked 'do you think changes are necessary to meet the fifteen transportation problems and to be needs? ' Well a little more , in future ask travels for the earliest make changes and deal with the future and again this is remarkable that only sixty five per cent absolutely endorse that but our potentials in the , if you look at the next examples, forty four we are told here were in favour of the strategy and thirty six per cent opposed. That's it, we can majority vote on that sort of basis. Well you will find for instance that three times as many people will strongly oppose and was strongly in favour, something omitted from the report in front of me and there are eight per cent there that were indifferent. to your Council did I knock on the door and say standing for the Liberal Democrats, they said well we're not sure it's the way we are going to vote for you, we may vote for somebody else. I don't put them down as a . I put them down as a 'No', eight per cent couldn't bring themselves to support this strategy, they are 'Nos'. Madam if you add thirty six to eight what do you get. You get forty four, forty four in favour, forty four and that doesn't take into account that the Consultants in the overall strategy so Madam would question, is this difficult to get . There's always to say them up will they against more buses and public transportation. Yes. We are asking questions . Do you believe that sin is bad and that virtue is good. Do you believe the people should be faithful for their wives etc., etc., Is anybody timing this rigmarole please? Does anybody care Chairman . . I am sorry to be concerned, I don't know what he wants to pour something down my throat and this is . perfectly clear Chairman, if you have . That is perfectly relevant, we saw what you felt when you were briefed with the reference on the twenty second of December. Unfortunately view, and I'm sorry that we don't have . On page five again this is the persistence, the forty per cent in favour, thirty per cent against. That again is not sixty per cent of those again I would suggest that that part of the report is misleading. The Consultants at least have to recognise, they couldn't fix that the closure of was strongly opposed but it was a mystery to all of us except obviously Mr on the December how they were unable to nevertheless, to accept a little dissimilar rejection of part of my and the associated increased in the despite the fact that seven different people are of the same several different people same margin Mr but not . did the Consultant have difficulty here I suggest but if one giver of strategy is demolished by public consultation then that's fortunate but in the second demolish then your whole strategy tumbles down . This strategy does not have public support. I if you don't like the sound of it Mrs then I'm sorry for you but this is what democracy is all about and it is about time you listened to what people have to say. Now I'm disappointed to see here before us a motion of group which report saying that he should receive the report. It is perfectly clear to me and fellow Councillors that a report which is so badly and which so badly uses statistics, cannot be received because it is not of sufficient quality for this County Council and support the District Council to use it. I don't therefore, at the earliest possible to reject this whole exercise book and to start a proper consultation strategy of proper transportation strategy for the City of St Albans. Thank you Mr Mr . I usually to start by saying Chairman, have you followed that? Erm I don't think I have been down to that I think I've sh erm wired the whole damn out of my mind because er it's a long time since I heard such garbage in this chamber, it's fortunate for us Chairman that Mr isn't a member of the Environment Committee because if that's the kind of contribution that he's prepared to make on these occasions we would could well do without it. Here, here. Here, here. Chairman the St Albans traffic issue, the erm bus for quite a long period of time but throughout that period of time Chairman the County Council's decision has been absolutely clear. We believe that St Albans er has a traffic problem facing it in recent years, two or three year's ago at the height of activity er the problems facing it were were more obvious and along with that situation er there's no question about that and one might be forgetting to thinking the problem and not the way it hasn't, it will return now, we know it will be return and therefore we should be firm in our resolve and at some point in time in the future that problem must be addressed sensibly for the good of the people of St Albans. It has also been our our position of this County Council Chairman that we will never seek to impose a solution on St Albans, we felt that it's our duty to highlight the problems we to give them our expertise er as part of the leading part of our Authorities Committee in this country. Er and seek good qualified er Consultants to carry out the work which could be deliberated on by the various Committees of the County Council and the District and that work has been done and I think if I saw anything Chairman from the meeting on the twenty second of December at St Albans, it was that form very first time three political parties took up the policy and they started to address particular issues er er er we believe less measures partaken. Over the period of action five to ten years. Now I I I don't think there's any doubt about this Chairman that that particular group bears er comment from us er er part of the er Conservative resolutions made wants to acknowledge the fact that for the first time all parties, members of the parties haven't started to look in detail at these St Albans and many aspect, many aspects of the Consultants' strategy of starting to appeal. There are relevant stair er Chairman which you can look out of place at the present moment of time but they will need to be addressed at some point in time in the future and therefore one could be forgiven for wanting to prioritise various but in general terms, the strategy that has been er looked at is the progress of St Albans in general, there may be small elements of it and some of these have already touched upon but in general that is no sound strategy er which over a period of time and in the process of that it will be essential to monitor erm the effect of some of the changes as you go forward to see in fact whether the other elements of strategy that were erm put in to that er work were in fact still necessary and whether they should be have some . So all in all er the survey approved says . in in coming to grips with this issue we have realised how particular they are met er and a number of members will prevent from getting to that meeting to to put their views on the table and for this reason er they decided to defer that. Er the Director of Transportation recognises that, it was said that he's happy to to await the outcome of liberations by that er District Council and that's what the Conservative group has suggested that we do but if he wants you to recognise that every policy has to be accepted, the way in which they have performed time and decided to be addressed by my members of of all parties and therefore I urge you to support the Conservative resolutions I now put forward. Thank you for secondly I was that the decision now is left to the the District Council er have you not discuss some parts of elements er could be addressed in the short term. Er I really can't accept that er general questionnaire responded to sixty five per cent twelve per cent of sixty five per cent of you will recognise and agree that changes were needed that are existing now erm and so there must be evidence as and when the erm district erm district erm . So I cannot accept that . Mr . try and be er er er as positive as I always am but er all well know. However I must start by saying that er the County Council are giving so many people the hundred and twenty nine thousand people who signed contingence. Erm er that problem did seem to be appealing in the shape of a tachograph. Questions of this switched on and some of them how to do. First thing is to make sure that you get an opportunity to discuss it and I agree other people who actually res responded in seem to collect the fee and I am not paid to to collect the fee to try to make it very difficult for people to respond but nevertheless the numbers that we, I think in terms of other areas, other areas, the response that we got it is a bit ironic though to sit here in the afternoon having listened in the morning to a lovely discussion which was agonising three hundred, five hundred thousand for on traffic calming. Er then to er put er against the background as the District Council last last week were being told our budget will cost us er to er accidents and of course what this exercise would cost us, three hundred and fifty thousand is the amount very close that some of you just want to spend on the doing traffic calming over the next year year. So I mean is certainly makes sense on the background and very calmly by er Mr saying very positive so I can't hold my hand up and pick out particular in which they, some of them er never change opposition District Council that their negative response if you like but there were, there were some positive responses but only I have to say this for something like four er proposed paper and one of those in which er lots of in which relevance and er businesses in the area could have er the thing that er response was er this this partic particular phrase would seem to be saying trouble erm er identified. . and it isn't like that one at all but nevertheless there there is a way to adopt something like four strategy. This is, this is why I find it very sad I mean having gone to erm Meeting for our my apology for this. to get known response long before the County er desider er decide, consider what good will come . That's to start with if you look at the you will find that erm and then you've had that sort of what er local people that is now part and policy. Thank you very much.. proposing. Now what do I find oh oh dear we now say no great. no to the Railway Group but this particular Council it isn't the type of bits and say no to that. I want to see er the this rubbish dump but this isn't the time to do it and as the Conservatives said, we should wait on er to see what the Council er wants to do and I take that on board. And certainly I would, above all else, above all else, I would like to say to people whose, how comes jeopardised by the group. The areas through are the safe was only built fifteen years ago, right the way through . I'd like to say they relax our agreement, but apart from that the Government has is the way the total response of the City and District Council and it's had a chance, this Committee, to look at it and move forward. That's the right approach and I suggest to this Committee that if you take the Liberal Democrat Conservative resolution that will be not a bad . Thank you Mr I now Er thank you Chairman erm I should say as I live er St Albans and I actually er live . Erm on what they report does is is the ringway. I don't think it is. No I don't think . Erm and these are the fairly brief er Chairman I think, I am sorry for disappointing Mr because because erm I main properties but erm we are basically I think sort of more or less agreed parties that we actually want this . Er the reason want referring because hasn't commenced it's considered er view and the last thing we want is to be in business actually doing is enclosing on St Albans and anything that St Albans doesn't actually want. I mean I think you all learnt from the one way system and the fiasco erm of that was actually there. Erm on the other hand if it's if anyone who doesn't think that St Albans hasn't got a traffic problem erm well they probably live in a . . Erm but there there are sort of problems erm there. We want to get views of St Albans District Council am I told erm that last Thursday evening in the snow, er Counc St Albans Council came through first er to erm agree it. Er but but but not not right. Er I am sorry this Mr means the tone of his Here, here. it sounds as if he was launching a little democrat er campaign for for the District Council Elections in May that's what it sounded . . Erm I do think Charles we need some serious approach er er and deal with this problem. It's a very complex actually . There are sort of costs in that respect that that come out of this erm business report er and on the late sides erm we would actually support the motion that's been moved by er Charles and Jane but there is a policy of response and that doesn't mean to say that they will accept all of it but there may be some good elements er er within it but we need to actually refer it. The end of the I wanted to do Chairman apart from well that er we can support erm the third motion. Is I think we probably do need as Mr suggested to move number one suggested resolutions, erm now if the Liberal Democrats won places in and if they'd rather have the work noted proceed to proceed by something sinister. It might take just a decision for St Albans oldest of the country by having changed the word received to . So if we would like further consultation apparently it was noted in view of the test carry out what we could do erm in fact the questionnaires have the response, I do share some of Mr 's er er worries that erm I think we ought to get out of the way and say to number one that this er . . Yeah well Mr Chairman I would formally like to motions my when the study one and the problems of this having to despite that the District Council have six and it's much further I again I think specification of erm what we do need despite what we should not need this time, this time later. er er another er er anoth another Committee because I would like to accept the if we could do something then modern conditions. So erm I I I've got them in the back of of what type of strategy you should . I think it would be fair to say we should not, at this moment in time, take any decision on on the matter . . Taking votes on the first . number one to take up the work of the . Agreed. take the Conservative resolutions against a to afterwards taking . . Right thank you very much. . .. That's it, that is it . We've waited at St Albans. what you'd have to do . reception . . . . was for us. . I would now like to move back to er defer lunch. . . circulate paper from erm a new motion in terms of the environment motions erm defers more than that I don't really say We had about two hours on on it this morning. Needless to say there has been er Come in! my son, Doctor. Oh. What've you been doing to this poor soul? Has she been bad to you? He did trying to get off the drink. Oh right. Aha. He got two week ones then he got a four week one. But he fell back on it on Saturday there. Aye. So it's bad with his nerves and everything. What's happened to your nerves dear? Sleeping all day and then at night time house. What's making you sleep all day pal? Do you think it's the drink that's doing that? Aye it must be . Looking at one you know. Let's get you sorted out. Er what age are you now, David, sixteen? No, twenty four. Are you! Already? Twenty four. How'd you get as old as that, eh? Fifty was it fifty two? Fifty two. You're in , aren't you? Aye. Now, do you want to go and see the specialist about this drink problem, David? I mean I can help you a certain, a certain amount, Mm. but I mean er there is, there is a, a clinic, a special clinic f for fellows that have got trouble with drink. Would you like to go and see the specialist? He was going to the A A meetings Mhm. and he was doing alright till then but his pal came back again, but I've chased him now, Aye. so he's trying hard again. He says he's going to start going to his meeting again. Aye. I'm too nervous, I cannae go out the house without control . We can soon stop your nerves and that, that's an easy bit. That's the easy bit. We'll try this for a couple of weeks and see how things do. If this isn't enough then we'll get in touch with the specialist. Aha. Right? Come back and see me in, what, a fortnight today? Aye. Right. Okay. Now one in the morning, one at teatime, and two at bedtime. Here we are David, and I've got, er now you've some special tablets to get your system boosted up again. I've given you some other special ones to take during the day just to settle your nerves Aye. and take an extra dose at night to try and get you into a sleep so we can get you back into sleeping rather than up prowling about during the night, cos it does no good at all. He got a big pellet in his leg Doctor and he went for X-rays, up to Monklands, wasn't it? Aye. Aye. And he, he was drunk and he got into the back of his leg with his glass and he got it out, it was a great big steel Right. thing. Do you know . Oh it should, it should come alright. Wh when was that David? Well I was I was me leg for a bit too But I went up to Monklands and Taken X-rays. X-rays. Aha. And did they did they take it out for you? No they No No No they It's still there? I took it out the other night? You took it out the other night, right? Let's have a wee look and see what it's like. Oh aye. Aye are you gonna take the ? Oh aye right, the right. That feels okay here and now all right. Keep it, keep it clean outside and inside, you don't need to, if you want to go swimming or anything, fine no problem at all. like that Doctor. You as well did you? Aye . There you are David. We'll see you in a couple of weeks again and see how you're doing. I'll have to come up I'll have to come up and see your Right . We'll get, I'll give you it just now. Er it away, I might use it Ah. in my sitting room. It's an eight week, is it an eight week one you get? No it's thir Is it a thirteen? Thirteen weeks. No, twenty six weeks,. Twenty six is it? Twenty six. Aye. Six months or something. Six months. What was on your last line, can you remember? He never Just, just Listen Doctor, I wonder if you could I'm eating seven boxes of chocolate a week. Mhm. It started with the grandwean, you know, when she's and I'm taking a bit, and then I seem to get addicted to it, and I'm buying seven boxes. What's caus David says it's a lack of vitamins, No no Is it no? No no Do you think it'll do any harm? Yes. Oh my God. Through time it will. Will it? Yes. You could well get sugar Oh. That's about a year ago now. Let's see if we can do something to, to help you . Are you in ? Aye that's right. Aha. . Eighty one? Eighty one. There you are, you get started on that, and see Oh good if that can keep things under control. Right. Thanks Doctor. Right, okay now. Cheerio. Cheerio just now. I'd like to welcome you all, and thank you very much for coming on time. This is our fifth session and it's The Gifts of the Spirit. If we could just pray together. God you are mother and father to us all. Be with us as we pray. Pour out your spirit upon your people, and grant us a new vision of your glory, a new experience of your power, a new faithfulness to your word, a new consecration to your service, that your love may grow among us, and your kingdom come. Through Christ, our Lord, amen . If you remember at the last two sessions we've talked about signs and symbols. And particularly over the last session we talked about the symbolic actions that make up the actual point of confirmation, the confirming of the sacrament, of the sacrament of confirmation. And you had some work to do at home on that. It was the Can You Remember?section and there were some missing words to fill in. So if we could just check that we've all got this right. God speaks to us in many ways. In the beauty of a sunset or a flower in the power of the sea in the kindness of people we know. God also speaks to us in the seven sacraments the special symbols of God's love and care. And on the day of confirmation I will be confirmed by the bishop. The special symbol of confirmation has four parts. And they are the laying on of hands, the anointing with the oil of Chrism, the signing with the cross the words, be sealed with the gift of the Holy Spirit. And when the bishop says the words, you reply Amen . And it's very important to finish off with amen and to actually do it in a very convincing way. If the bishop can't hear you or if you forget to say it, he will ask you you are saying yes to all that the spirit will give you? What we want to do now is to actually erm do a er a guided scripture meditation with you. I don't know whether any of you have ever prayed in this way before but it is a silent way of praying. And I will actually draw or paint a word picture for you to put you in the scene. What I want to make sure first of all is that erm you understand what has gone on before the scene that we actually want to find ourselves in. And we're actually going to think about the evening of Good Friday. So we've actually had Maundy Thursday and the last supper. Jesus has been through the agony in the garden he's been arrested he's been abandoned by his apostles he's been through a trial and he has actually been through the crucifixion and he's been buried in the tomb. So I'll close the curtains and the room now will be quite dark. I just want to you to get yourselves comfortable during this time. We have to be silent, we have to be still. At the end of the meditation, towards the end of the meditation, I'll ask you three questions and I'll leave some time of silence between each question. And I want you to think about the question that I ask you but I don't want you to speak out the answers. If you can just close your eyes and picture the upper room. This is the same room where Jesus a few hours earlier had celebrated the last supper. The room is quite dark. There are one or two little oil lamps which are flickering. But even in the gloom you can make out the apostles' faces. Have a look at them. They look tired and worn out. They talk quietly amongst themselves sometimes finding it hard to speak. Some of them are near to tears. There's a sudden noise outside in the street. Immediately they stop talking and look anxiously at the door. Very quietly one gets up and goes noiselessly to check the bolt's on the door. Everyone is very tense. Can you imagine what they are feeling? What are they remembering? What are they saying? If you'd like to open your eyes and if you would like to list your response on a piece of paper for me. The questions I asked were are what are they feeling? What are they remembering? And what are they saying? For the feelings you've used words like frightened nervous worried sad anxious curious shocked numb guilty confused. What are they remembering? You've used words like death last supper good times sad times, the past couple of days all that Jesus had said and done their betrayal their cowardice. And what are they saying? They're asking what the noise could be who it could be were the guards coming for them? They're asking each other did they know what was going to happen? How long were they going to be there? Would Jesus actually be raised from the dead? All of these things are pretty negative. They were feeling lost and all alone. I'd really like to erm tell you the brief story of the events which lead on from Good Friday to Pentecost Day. On the night of Good Friday, the apostles must have felt a painful sense of loss. It was not just that they had lost a friend through death, but the death that Jesus had suffered was long and cruel, and above all it was unjust. The apostles had hoped that Jesus would have been the one to set the people free. Only a week earlier on Palm Sunday, it seemed possible that Jesus could have led a rebellion against the hated Romans. Much as they admired him and loved him, he seemed to have let them down. But they too had let him down. One of their friends, Judas, had betrayed him. But then hadn't they all? Only John had had the courage to stay close to Jesus throughout the terrible events of Thursday night and Friday. Perhaps none felt it more than Peter, who boasted that he would never leave Jesus. Friday night, Saturday and Sunday were a nightmare. They were terrified that the Jewish authorities would come for them and that they would suffer the same fate as Jesus. On Sunday morning their confusion and bewilderment increased. Some of the women who were followers of Jesus had returned from the tomb where Jesus had been buried, saying that it was empty, that they had been told in a vision that Jesus had risen from the dead. On Sunday evening nearly all the apostles were together in the upper room where Jesus appeared to them. Now they knew that the women had been right, Jesus had indeed risen from the dead. During the next forty days Jesus often appeared to his friends. He reminded them of all the things that he'd said and done and he prepared them for their mission in the world. Forty days after the resurrection, Jesus took his friends to a hill top outside Jerusalem. This was the last time they saw him. He gave them his last instructions, and then he was taken from their sight . I have an exercise for you now. It's called a word match. And there are twenty four words at the bottom of the page and we have Good Friday, we have Easter Day and we have Ascension Day. And there are eight words that need to be fitted in to each day. Eight words that you think would be most suitably des that would most suitably describe the feelings of the apostles on Good Friday, on Easter Day, and on Ascension Day. If you can just work spend the next couple of minutes working through that. You can work on your own or you can work in pairs. Right let's see what we have for Good Friday. We have end sorrow, death, shame, guilt, despair, confusion, gloom. For Easter Day we have joy, amazement, life, beginning, waiting, resurrection, hope, and wonder. And for the Ascension Day we have leaving, promise, command, glory, peace, question, waiting, expectation. We see there with Good Friday all the words are, they're negative words aren't they? Whereas Easter Day and Ascension Day, the words seem full of hope for the future. New life. Okay, if we want to finish there and erm have a short break. You can have a drink and erm a biscuit. And during the second half, Jim will lead the second half. And in that we're actually going to look at erm the actual what Jesus promised with erm with the coming of the Holy Spirit, and what the Holy Spirit can actually do for us. It's erm now we're doing this you know so that the Holy Spirit, as you er remember is the third person in the trinity that we call God. Erm and we're looking at his role in, and I use the word advisedly, his erm in our lives. And er again just to you know recall some of that to you know the some of the ways that we think about that will be developed in this section. You know some of the ways we think about the Holy Spirit and some of the ways in which the Holy Spirit helps us. It's more than help actually, it's an empowering. Er what we can do with the Holy Spirit is more than we can do on our own. What we can do with the Holy Spirit is something that we cannot do on our own. And er, you know just briefly, that's what this er section is about. Er we've got this thing called Command and Promise haven't we? Mhm. Right. Do you want to give them out then Peter while I'm In order to fill this in, this little er section you have to look at the er the chapter that they recommend you, er Saint Matthew's Gospel chapter twenty eight. Would you, you two share? Okay. Right. Twenty eight, right to the very end of Matthew's Gospel. You have to read that in order to er Okay Peter if you, there and on to the next page right to the end. Same for y for you, if you if you want to take that for yourself, twenty eight, on to the next page . Twenty eight . Erm . Have you read it? Okay. You'll, you'll have noticed that er in reading that that it's, it's the part er on er Zeffirelli's erm Jesus of Nazareth that erm that is actually what we saw on the film is actually what's written here. Er and these, these little exercises er are meant to give you erm they're memory aids really, they're not meant to be homework, they're simply so as er you know like if you, you want to remember er a difficult name you can sometimes do a funny thing with it you know to, to remember it you know. Well the these exercises are erm designed so as that you will remember. So you've seen the film, you look at the er the scripture and now you should er fill that Command and Promise in. Erm it says er before Jesus ascended in to heaven, He gave a final command which was? Look at Matthew's Gospel . And the command is in four parts erm and you're expected to write in what those four parts are. Er so can you remember from what you've just read what the, what the command is? Anybody er wants to shout, that will help all of us . Right, good. Can you read it out, the bit that you feel that's er think you're, you've got the most difficult one there. I think you've er you know . That's right, that's the first part of the command. Er now these, you know you can actually write that in, go on, if you want. That, that's the top one. Erm you know perhaps in, in years to come you're looking over this work just to, to check on it, you the the these'll, these'll be a help to you. Any offers on the er the last er three parts of that? Last three parts of the erm the command. Well we have Go to Galilee , and now we're looking at er erm at er at the other parts of that command. Yes, go on. Right, Tara's helped us there by, they're the last three parts of the command. Go therefore, make disciples of all nations . You'll find them at the very end of, of chapter twenty eight. You should find it it's actually written in the last sort of four, five lines there. Yeah that's it, that's the part there. Go therefore, make disciples of all nations, baptise them in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit . That's the first part. Teach them to observe all the commands I give you . Tara's also read the, the promise that comes in the last of that section. Jesus also made a great promise, what was it? What was it Tara? And I will be with you always . That's right. And in my translation here it's got And know that I am with you always, yes to the end of time . You could always fill this in at a later date, there's Aha . no need to hurry it if you're rushing it too much. It's important just to know where it is, that's all. Erm to save you er searching through your Bible, I think I'll read this next bit out . Much earlier at the last supper Jesus had promised that when he returned to God, he would ask for a gift to be sent to his friends . In John chapter fourteen it tells us what that gift is. Don't worry about finding it. No it's, it might, might be in here later on you know. I shall ask the Father and He will give you another advocate to be with you forever. That spirit of truth whom the world can never receive since it neither sees, know or nor knows Him. But you know Him because He is with you, He is in you. I will not leave you orphans . He says. Okay so that's that particular part. So just to recap again we have to try and link Ascension Day to Pentecost. Because all of these ha all of these events are happening fairly rapidly. And the whole thing is accomplished within fifty days. After the first meeting with Jesus in the garden, Easter Sunday, there comes a period of forty days. And in that time Jesus appears to er people who will be what he calls his witnesses. People who will say to other people I know Jesus I know that he loves us, I know that he forgives us, I know that he is risen from the dead, and that the good news is that we will also rise from our own deaths. The big fear that all humankind has is that when you die, that's the end of it. Jesus' resurrection means that we will not die, not in the sense of eternal death. We will move through a period now that we call death, but we will not die in the sense of annihilation. Jesus' death and resurrection means exactly that. So let's just er to put it in context again, we saw that on the day of the ascension Jesus instructed his friends to go on proclaiming the good news throughout the world to help others become disciples, and bring to them, and bring them to membership of the church through baptism. Jesus knew however, that before they would be ready to undertake this work they needed power, they needed a special power. The apostles didn't have the understanding or the courage to do this by themselves. When Jesus had returned to his Father the apostles did as he had told them and returned to the city. Once more they felt lost and afraid. When Jesus, when, while Jesus had been with them they had had the confidence. Now they were not sure what to do. For ten days they hid in the upper room. Then on Pentecost Sunday, Pentecost Day, ten days after the Ascension and fifty days after then resurrection, the apostles had an experience which not only changed them but changed the whole history of the world. You see man from the very beginning, man and woman has been afraid. And the thing, the biggest thing that we've been afraid of is death and the things that lead to death like sickness and like infirmity like weakness. These are the things that make us afraid, and we build ourselves secure places so as that we can't or don't have any need to be afraid. What Jesus is saying is, you don't have to be afraid of death any more. I've, I've been through death and I've conquered death. Pentecost. You see it's one thing for Jesus to say that it's another for us to believe it and accept it. I mean I can tell you that there's water in the pipe if you're thirsty, but you need to go to the pipe with a glass and turn the tap on in order to er not to be thirsty any more, in order to receive the water. There is something you have to do in order to receive the gift. Even if it's only stretching out your hand to receive the gift, it's something yo you all of us have to do. Er but in order to stretch out our hands, in order to turn the tap on er sometimes that takes courage er because s people might be laughing at us. They'll say, oh there's no water in that tap, you know. And you say, well there is, I know there is. And er sometimes it takes a bit of courage to walk over to the tap when everybody's saying there'll be no water, and for you to turn that tap on. Of course when everybody finds that there is water, there's all sorts of excuses then. Oh yeah, somebody must have been there, you must have put it in yourself, you must have done. People give you that sort of excuse. Er right. Er can I read just through this Pentecost er with you. Erm When Pentecost Day came around they had all met in one room . Notice there immediately, when we're frightened we like to have other people around us. We don't like to be on our own . It's harder to be frightened on your own. They'd all met in one room. When suddenly they heard what sounded like a powerful wind from heaven, the noise of which filled the entire house in which they were sitting. And something appeared to them which seemed like tongues of fire. These separated and came to rest on the head of each of them. They were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in foreign tongues as the Spirit gave them the gift of speech. Now there were devout men living in Jerusalem from every nation under heaven, and at this sound they all assembled . Evidently the sound that has been heard in the upper room is not just in the upper room but it's er it's audible within the whole district. These guys come to the sound. Each one bewildered to hear men speaking in his own language. They were amazed and astonished. Surely, they said, all these men speaking are Galileans. How does it happen that each of us hears them in his own native language? Parthians, Medes, Aramites, people from Mesopotamia, Judaens,Capodoceans and Asian, Phrygia and , Egypt, and the parts of Libya around Syrene, as well as visitors from Rome, Jews and Proselytes alike, Cretans and Arabs. We hear them preaching in our own language about the marvels of God. Everyone was amazed and unable to explain it, and they asked one another what it all meant . Can you imagine that, you know just using your imagination again to slip back to those er these things hadn't been experienced. You know I mean it's difficult to erm to grasp. It's rather like you know you know one remembers the feeding of the five thousand. these were extraordinary occurrences, they weren't you know things that were daily available. But for our need at this moment, we have to look at what the Holy Spirit is doing. So the Holy Spirit and the symbol that was er found most useful by the Holy Spirit, was fire. Just as you look at the candle flame there burning, erm it's a symbol. I mean it's actually giving light out, but er there's one over there if anybody Yeah. can't see it. The er it's actually giving light out, but if you were to try and grasp that light in your hand, you couldn't. You know you can't feel, you can't grab hold of light in your hand. And you can't actually grab hold of wind er in your hand either. You know I mean if you try and grab the wind all you you're left with is a clenched fist. But those symbols of fire and of wind are useful because when we say God is in us, when we say the Holy Spirit is in us, we can't actually grab anything and say you know we can't actually put it on a video and say, that little bit to the right of my heart is the Holy Spirit. You can't do that . The Holy Spirit is erm is not visible in, in the same way that wind isn't visible. And yet the, to say that the wind doesn't exist because you can't see it would be erm would be pretty dangerous if you were standing on a cliff and saying there's no wind around here, and there's a howling gale blowing you off and into the water. Erm so some of the things that we can look at with wind for example of the er you know the power and the the destructive nature of wind, the cooling nature of wind, the refreshing nature of wind, the disturbing nature of wind. Erm you know when you're th we were just talking about the upper room, and erm and the great wind that was noise that was felt. There aren't many people who aren't afraid when there's a lot of wind about. Most people on a very windy day, and we had a couple you know in the winter there didn't we, and storms wind storms, and there aren't many people who say, you know in the middle of that storm, oh I feel quite comfortable, I'm quite happy with this. You know I mean you're wondering whether it's going to blow the chimney pot off or all sorts of things. But having said that, if you're standing er at the seafront after a hot day or something and there's a cool er breeze coming in off the sea, the same thing is er is a pleasing thing. It's hard to define. Fire too is a similar thing. It can be warming or destroying, it can be purifying, life-giving. It can symbolize enthusiasm, you're on fire with love, you know and er you know the, the power that's generated by fire. Okay. The thing that's suggested just to sort of er bring that round to you to you know rather than just have me speaking, is to suggest that er if I start a sentence er perhaps you know people could join in with the finish of that sentence, you know. So if I say, the Holy Spirit is the one who gives us . What would you say? How would you finish that sentence? The Holy Spirit is the one, there's no right answer to this let me say. It can be anything that you feel you know. The Holy Spirit out of all that we've been speaking about and listening to you can give us the end of the sentence . Hope. Hope. The Holy Spirit is the one who gives us hope. Mega. I mean this generation needs hope. The Holy Spirit is one who gives us? Strength. Strength. Yes, indeed. The Holy Spirit is one who gives us? Comfort. Yes. True. The comforter. Erm any more? The Holy Spirit is the one who gives us? Protection. Protection . They're some of the things that you can think out and er work out you know, that's, that's what we've been trying to do. We've got a thing called The Changed Man, er little handout. And you're asked to complete this work in pairs if it's easier. working in pairs. Getting a bit short of time. Yeah I think it might be if you could just actually talk through it really rather than asking them to do it. It might be as well . Oh right, yes. Now let me just work through this with you so as er wh you know it's unfortunate there's such a lot in these things that er Mm. y you tend to run short of time so Then Peter stood up with the other eleven apostles and in a loud voice began to speak to the crowd . This is after Pentecost now. This is after he's filled with the Holy Spirit. Fellow Jews, and all of you who live in Jerusalem, listen to me and let me tell you what this means. This is what the prophet Job spoke about . This was a prophet in the old writings of the Jews and er one of their, one of the people who they looked to for wisdom. And what he said, prophesying about the future, saying what would happen in the future in this case. I will pour out my spirit on everyone. Your sons and your daughters shall proclaim my message . The Holy Spirit has been poured out and it's enlivened man. It's rather like er I had a plant the other day, a marigold, and it had been there for about two weeks and it was a lovely plant, and er I noticed it beginning to droop and I thought, oh well it's finished now, it's in a pot. And then I poured some water on it, and it's lasted a further two weeks. It took on a a whole new lease of life. Erm when the spirit is poured out on us, our life changes too, and from being mortal we become immortal. Listen to these words. Jesus of Nazareth was a man whose divine authority was clearly proven to you by all the miracles and wonders which God performed through him. This Jesus you handed over to be crucified, but God raised him from death, setting him free from its power. God has raised this very Jesus from death, and we are all witnesses to this fact. What you see and hear is His gift of the Holy Spirit which He has poured out on us. All the people of Israel then are to know for sure that this Jesus, whom you crucified, is the one that, that God has made Lord and Messiah. When the people heard this, they were deeply troubled and said to Peter and the other apostles, what shall we do? Peter said to them, each of you must turn away from sin, and be baptised in the name of Jesus Christ, and you shall receive the gift of his Holy Spirit . So we've got column one and we have the picture of the cock in the background crowing. as if it wasn't bad enough there was there was there's the cock crowing in the background, and in column two we have the picture of Peter er smiling and confident, welcoming just like the Spirit that imbues him really. I think it's fairly erm straightforward isn't it? In, in column one we may think er bewildered, fearful hiding, weak, afraid, are words that might describe Peter's state of mind, his emotions. After the coming of the Holy Spirit we might say that he is strong, sure, courageous, confident, powerful leader. A changed man. Just like to, we should have had a little bit of discussion there but we're moving quickly. In our day and age, can you think of someone who has been so full of the Spirit that he's had the courage to to preach even when his own life was at stake? Someone who's had the courage who knowing that what they were saying was upsetting powerful people, still taking that risk and saying what they felt to be true and just? Can you think of anybody?? Erm Martin Luther King? Martin Luther King. Absolutely. Romero. Romero. Archbishop Romero, he was a bishop in El Salvador and er he was an archbishop and erm he was shot because he opposed the people who were in power. And we can think of other people like Mother Theresa too, in the face of so much er you know what people have said to her is, you know, don't you think that er what you're doing is just a drop in the ocean? You know you've got a million people and you're just looking after a thousand, maybe more. And she has got the courage to look at that million people, which takes courage, and look at the thousand which she is helping and saying, no love is never wasted. You know it's er it's it's a mystery force, and what I do for one in some way affects the million. That takes courage, to actually think in those terms. Okay we'll move on to the seven gifts of the Holy Spirit. We've got a thing there I think with them on have you? Ah. Oh sorry. They have now. They have now. Right . The dove there is representing the Holy Spirit traditionally and from the dove are seven channels. Seven is, in Jewish thought and in Christian thought for that matter, is a perfect number. It's er it's not meant to encompass all of the gifts that the Spirit gives us. Er it's simply meant to say that any gift that the Holy Spirit gives you is a perfect thing, and it's erm that seven there it's erm it's just trying to bring that idea across. Notwithstanding that, there are seven things that we can talk about er when we say gifts of the Spirit. Erm we might say for example er that all of these gifts, you've heard of the word grace? Er sanctifying grace natural grace, you know now they're it's all, it's all help from God but clever thinkers have decided to split them up into various things, just like the way I mean for example er there's so many different things made from oil, you know er like erm turpentine er petrol, diesel. It's all oil, plastics. It is in fact all oil, but for trying to understand the thing it's better to try and break it down if we can, and that's what's being done here. So wisdom is a gift of the Holy Spirit and that particular thing is to er help us to judge in the way that God does. Erm what is the way that God judges? I think He judges with mercy, you know erm it's erm perhaps sometimes when we're asked to be in a situation where we have to give an opinion, then it should be, if we have wisdom er a merciful erm balance. To help us to understand. The gift of understanding is to help us to understand all that God has told us. Which is a lot isn't it really, once we come down to it,you know we've had a two solid hours of what God has been trying to teach us today. Right judgment is to help us to know what to do in difficult situations. These are things that when you're confirmed you will have the ability to reach into. You will have the erm When you're confirmed there'll be a difference in you that isn't there now. You will have the ability to turn the tap on. At the moment in a way, you don't have that ability to turn the tap on. Erm but after you're confirmed, you will have er you know the ability to say, yes Lord I want to have wisdom, I want to have right judgment. Courage. The courage of Peter er after his denial is something that was given him by the Holy Spirit. But Peter had to accept it. And Peper Peter had to accept it not just once you know and then he was a changed man. He was a changed man, but he also, there were times when he failed again, when Peter failed again. And if you read the scriptures, you'll discover those where er he, you know er he was with Paul on one occasion, and er he'd been eating with Gentiles and er then some Jews came up who believed that eating with er non-Jews even though they were followers of Jesus was wrong. And er and and Peter because of his fear of the Jews says, okay I, I won't do that any more, I'll go and, I'll just go and sit with the Jews. And Paul comes up to him and says, you're totally wrong, out of order here Peter, erm you know what, what you know I mean you're afraid, that's, that's your problem. And er and, and Peter says, you're right, er I was wrong to do that. You know so you have to reach out on a daily basis for these gifts. You know so when you're confirmed, it won't be, okay I'm on the boat now, it will be making use of those gifts, whatever they may be, and they'll be uniquely your own in each one, the mix'll be uni uniquely you know, to the person, you'll have to make use of it on a daily basis, not just simply, okay I'm on the boat. Erm I think that's about it really. Okay. We can er Right. I'm sure that we'll, we'll touch on those again To actually finish erm To actually finish with erm our prayer. Just put your papers down for a couple of minutes please. Jesus said I shall ask the Father and He will give you another advocate to be with you for ever. Let's pray in the silence of our hearts that God will send the Holy Spirit to fill us with promised gifts. Perhaps there is one gift you feel you need very specially. Without getting your papers out, can you remember erm finish with. Day by day These things I pray. To see you more clearly, to love you more dearly, to follow you more nearly. May God bless us and keep us. May God send us His Holy Spirit and make us courageous followers of Jesus Christ our Lord . Amen . Thank you. There's just one more handout that I need er to give you. If you fill this in at home. Erm have you all got the date when we're meeting again? Yes. Yeah. Can you all remember? Now I'm not sure whether it's Saturday . Twenty first? Yeah. Yes. So there's two Sundays off. Right. There's Easter Sunday and the Sunday after that because some of you may well be off on holiday. So we're meeting back here on the twenty fifth of April at two thirty. Okay. Erm we've also, there's also a bit of homework in there, do you remember that was given out erm one of the early sessions, and you will be expected to have erm thought quite a lot about that and to have worked through that. If I could also ask those of you who haven't decided on a confirmation name, I think really by the time we meet again you should. So I mean I won't take them now if you have thought erm and if y if you have er decided on a name I won't erm make a note of it now, erm but if you can all remember that that we definitely need the confirmation names sorted out. Also I do need the name of your sponsor and their address and also I would like to see if possible by then any erm baptismal certificates that we haven't seen. Have you got a got a problem with it or? okay. Erm the problem being that if, if erm if it is from another parish erm the priests in that parish can really be very slow in erm supplying you with erm a copy of it. Erm so if erm she doesn't leave it any later than Monday, if she gets in touch with the parish priests would be very grateful. Erm we'll talk some more too about the away day at the next session. Erm really what er I wanted to do was erm to sort out the, the person who is actually going to the Chrism mass. Erm so Catherine you said you didn't think you'd go, you could go. I can't. And Kate you can't go. Can you go Fay? Yeah. So we've got Fay. And you're, you don't think that I'm I'm not sure. So I'll find out for next week. No. That's no good because the mass is on Thursday. It's Thursday Which Thursday ? this Thursday coming. Are you around or did you say you thought you were going away? I thought, we are going away to Wales. You don't know when? No. Right. Ben what about you? Er I'm not sure. You're not sure, so you haven't right okay. And what about you Tara? I'm going, I am going away. So you're going away. So Fay it looks as though it's down to you. Alright, so would you like to do that for us? I explained quite quite well I think didn't I on erm Friday when I saw you, what was involved. Erm if I just give your name to Liz she'll, she'll probably get in touch with your mum. Erm but she may well pick you up about eleven o'clock. starts at half eleven, alright Fay? And then you will be coming to evening mass won't you? Because we'll need you to process. Erm so you're definitely away? Are you, are you definitely away Catherine or are you, is it just the day that you're going out? Will you get mass ? Yeah I, I don't know . I'll get in touch, I'll give her a ring, because we actually, we were looking erm out of the twelve of you altogether we were looking for six of you to actually have your feet washed on Maundy Thursday evening at the, at the, the mass at the service on Maundy Thursday evening. What happens is o you know, you know that erm twelve people have their feet washed er during that erm service, and erm what we wanted was six confirmation ca er candidates to actually have their feet washed on the sanctuary erm by Father and then to ask those six to then go down into the congregation and wash the feet of one other person each making twelve altogether. Really sort of as a sign of service erm to, to community. Erm it doesn't look really as though out of, certainly out of this six that we're going to get three. But you may be around mightn't you? And you may be around Yeah. Peter anyway. Erm are you around on may be around. that? Right. And Tara you're, when are you going away? Well we're going away erm on the Friday morning . Ah right okay. Well We might be able to come to the mass but I'm not sure. Alright I'll, I'll, I think it's probably better if, but Kate you're away definitely. Okay. Well I'll, I'll give your parents a ring then. It's probably you know better me to do that and make certain erm But if, if, if you were here, would anybody be prepared to do that? To actually have their feet washed and then go down and wash somebody else's? It's nothing to be bothered about really you know it it's a good thing to do. It's only a, it's only a token. Yes it's not erm you do have to sort of take your sock and shoe off, but only of one foot. And you'll just have a, some water you know poured on top and then you'll have a towel to wipe your feet. You won't be involved in that Fay really cos you'll be part of the erm procession with the oils you see. But erm what we would like is for any of you who are actually here at that time to attend that mass and to be involved in some way, to do some sort of erm service. So okay. Think about it anyway, and I'll try and get in touch with your mums and dads erm It's not because we can't get anybody else,it's because we want to involve you . But er Yes it is. Be be because you know it, it really is, it's erm er it is sort of really we see it as sort of part of the confirmation programme really and your involvement in it, and it's all sort of quite erm special to confirmation so it would be nice if you could be involved. Alright. But I'll This is a fax I want you to send to Ian in Aiden Mouth and it reads as follows good afternoon Ian, at long last I've been able to get down to this memo of yours, dated the thirtieth alt can you please let me know the actual deliveries' figures in the first part of this memo. You have shown four, inverted commas, delivery Aiden Mouth close inverted commas one hundred, sorry, one thousand, one hundred and ninety two kilos, stop, I think there should be fourteen ninety two kilos, please confirm I am correct as soon as possible, otherwise I agree with all your other figures in this memo, best regards, Sam This is a memo to Caroline at Aiden Mouth Good evening Caroline, can I refer you to Aiden Mouth, invoice number A four hundred which is linked to invoice number one, nine, O, seven, six, paragraph invoice where total is one, sorry, seventeen thousand, one hundred and six kilos, of which Aran A R A N contributes twelve thousand, eight hundred and ninety two kilos, which is seventy five point three seven percent of the total weight, stop, in your invoice number A four hundred you have charged us the full charges, whereas we are only liable for seventy five point three seven percent of the New Zealand to U K charges, dash, am I not correct, question mark. Paragraph, earlier reply will be, be appreciated as I want to finalize the Aran price for the units as soon as possible, best regards, Sam. Good morning er Sam here is Carol there please? Can you hold on a minute? Thank you very much Okay Good morning Good morning Carol, how are you this morning? Well a bit wet and windy Oh, well it's dry and very cold and er and bright periods Is it? er but no doubt we'll have a few showers I'm sure Yeah, we've had really heavy rain this end and it's beginning to dry up, but it's still very strong winds Yeah we've been told to prepare for frost tonight Yeah, it wouldn't surprise me because it's quite, quite cold here Well I believe it's snowing in Coventry That wouldn't surprise me one bit Mm, anyway what can we do for you? Well I tell you what I'm on about, er, Penn Eagle, er, it the code, the A F P number is Yes if you may or may not remember we were able to buy the D U S from Holland on it Yeah yeah I think we did yeah Yeah , does that mean er whenever I send out the application fee of two hundred and fifty pounds some months ago, er did we get that back or do we get it back? No you don't get that back That's that's all part of the administration procedures that's what I thought, I wasn't quite sure, I just wanted I'd been sort of going through various things, and I want I'd wanted to make absolutely sure No because erm, I mean, you've paid a hundred and forty pounds in the post Correct out of seven hundred pounds for testing each year Yeah, that's fine, I just wanted to confirm that that was okay That's okay It's one of those things that sort of sort of puts a little query in your mind and You have a blind sometimes don't you? And I, er,un unfortunately I have too many of them but someday you'll be old too Carol, so I'm getting that way now Well that's grand, and okay Have a nice Easter Thank you ver and the same to yourself, yes indeed, thank you very much indeed Bye bye Bye bye Good morning Sam speaking, er, is Phillip there please? Just a moment Thank you Morning Good morning Phillip sorry I didn't get back to you sooner That's alright, just about the group conference Yeah I'm not flying up, I'm driving up Alright, okay erm, I can be there two days, two and a half days beforehand Ah right, you're doing a wee tour That's right Right erm and as far as, erm menus and everything is concerned Right don't worry about something for me I'll have what anybody else has Ooh right, okay, well there'll be another one going out to you for the, I think the Saturday night er hotel Don't worry about it, I'll just have what er, what's going Er, oh yes well I think it, I think bearing in mind the size of the hotels, I think probably it would be a help if there was something sort of decided, but I, I know, I'm, I'm a wee bit sort of, possibly like yourself, er I might order something now and then not look forward to it that particular night Yeah wished I'd booked something else, er but I'm leaving it sort of, you know, sort of three, four days maybe before we depart Right so er, I'll be in touch er Phillip no doubt, er once you get the second menu there'll be another one coming along I think Yeah er from the other hotel, I've been promised that anyway. Right, fine. Er, how are things there today? They're a little bit faded today, we're all in today, which makes it a little bit easier. Ah right, right. How's trade? Still going along, still going along Good, good but er ground still wet is it? We've had a lot, a nice drop of rain Right nice drop of rain Yeah erm, you know which is, we've had more rain in the last fortnight than we have for about in the last three years. Good God, yes I know it's been very, very heavy here too, there were certain areas over here certainly needed a bit of rain, but now there's certainly didn't need it at all Yeah but it's erm, och it's ticking along the trade you know, but er if, it's bitterly cold here, I don't know what it's like with you at the moment? It's not particularly warm Sam Yeah erm, I, I think it, because it has been warm, then you feel it when it becomes cold again, don't you? Yes that, I think that's possibly true, er, I was talking to Cambridge there about oh fifteen, twenty minutes ago and they said it was raining with them, and then they'd been talking over to somebody over in Coventry and it's, it's snowing there and it wouldn't surprise me one bit, because it, as I say it's bitterly cold here, while it's dry at the moment, it's bitterly cold Yeah so there we are, nothing else strange or startling? I don't think so, I don't think so Good, okay, okay Phillip, er Can you can you transfer me to Ruby or are you on your I can, yes just one second Thank you hold on a wee second here, just one second, where's Ruby's number? Here we are, okay, cutting off now. Cheers Hello Phillip Yep suddenly remembered er Ruby's off today Okay is there anybody else? No it's okay, it'll wait till tomorrow Okay, fine Okay then all the best Thank you, thanks for ringing, bye Bye. Pat I wonder could you, send the following letters to the various Scandinavian sea testing trial grounds. First is to Finland and it is to Penti P E N T I , and it reads as follows dear Penti, at the moment I am looking for information on the cost for officially trialing grasses and clovers in your country, stop. The agricultural grasses we are considering entering, will be Italian rye grass, hybrid rye grass, white clover and in the amenity section,and slender creeping red . Paragraph at the same time can you inform me if, apart from your national list trials, do you have a recommended list similar to that operating in the United Kingdom, question mark, paragraph, as far as the agricultural seeds are concerned I take it that you operate a distinctness, comma, uniformity and stability trial as well as the value for cultivation and usage trial, question mark paragraph, can you inform me how long your official trials last, and what weights of seeds are required for these trials paragraph, I look forward to hearing from you in the near future, kindest regards, yours sincerely For the Norwegian trials people will you send it to Kare K A R E, space capital O, stop,and for the Swedish people will you send it to Edvard E D V A R D Pat you could also send the same letter to doctor of the Ministero M I N I S T E R O Dell' capital D E L L apostrophe, capital A G R I C O L D U R A Spise, small E, Spise Delle D E L L E space Foreste F O R E S T E in Italy, you have the address I'm, I think, but if you haven't let me know. This is a fax to Neville in Aiden Mouth, the heading capital B, capital S, five seven, five O. Good morning Neville, many thanks for your memo of the sixth inst and I've duly noted your comments, stop. I think a lot of the companies who have got or are in the process of getting certified are working with consultants already stop. Do you know some people well enough in some of these other seed companies to approach them and find out with whom they are dealing with or do UKKASTA that's capital U, K, capital K, capital A, capital S, capital T, capital A have a recognized list of consultants? Paragraph, this is quite a major job, as I am sure you will appreciate it and I think a consultant is very likely a must for us, bearing in mind our various units. Paragraph, I look forward to receiving your comments, best regards This is a fax to Limited, the attention of David ,, heading Air Freight Charges for Aaron, ex Ireland, message reads as follows. Good morning David, I'm enclosing three pages of a fax which I have just received from Teagasc capital T E A G A S C which is self explanatory stop, I hope you can make it all out, comma, if not please come back to me, full stop, paragraph, it would be a help if you could get your shipping agents to provide us with the rates they would have charged paragraph, many thanks and best regards, Sam. This is an internal memo to Ian of B S H Haven Mouth, with a copy to Ann . Heading, nineteen ninety one and nineteen ninety two harvest, certified is aaron, white, clover, ex-challenge seeds, New Zealand, underline I am sending you copies of correspondence which I have sent to Phillip, comma, Roger, comma, Oliver and Joe, which I hope is self explanatory, paragraph. I have not done your allocation acts of nineteen ninety one harvest as I am not absolutely sure of all the movements of that allocation, maybe you could detail this out for me as it will greatly help when I'm eventually charging oblique crediting you. Paragraph, as far as the nineteen ninety two harvest and seed is concerned I list below all the allocations for the various units including your own. Paragraph, I would appreciate it if you could let me know when each unit has uplifted their allocation. Stop, as you can see I have warned them to let Haven Mouth know well in advance of the collection period for all the obvious reasons. Stop, then drop down a line and put a heading in the middle of the page originally, and underline that, and then out to the right, allocated, underline, then next line, left hand side. B S H Haven Mouth under originally put fifteen thousand kilos, under allocated put er thirteen thousand, eight hundred and fifty kilos, next line B S H Swinderby, three thousand kilos, two thousand, seven hundred and fifty kilos. B S H Warrington, five thousand kilos, four thousand, six hundred kilos, Germinal Ireland Limited, one thousand kilos, nine hundred and fifty kilos. S McLaus Limited, two thousand kilos, one thousand, eight hundred and fifty kilos. Paragraph, of course this seed is still in Christchurch New Zealand and it is not our intention to bring any forward to the U K at this time. Stop, end of memo. This is a fax to OSEVA, capital O, capital S, capital E, capital V, capital A of Czechoslovakia and it is for the attention of Dipling capital D I P L stop capital I N G stop Josef J O S E F and the heading is your fax of the twelfth instant. The message then is, good afternoon, many thanks for your prompt reply stop. What you've said in your first paragraph is absolutely correct, stop. I have duly noted what you have said in your second and third paragraphs and I fully appreciate what you are saying, stop. Your Mr may have explained the position to Joe of Samuel McCauls Limited when he was over in Northern Ireland last September, but Joe did not inform me of your company's position. Stop, we will of course continue to put the varieties into unofficial trials, bracket and will pay the fees in full close brackets, in good faith on the understanding that when the varieties are to go into U K official trials, the position of your company will have been resolved and you will then be in a position to offer us the excrusive , exclusive rights at that time. Stop, do please inform me when you have been privatized and my, may I wish you a smooth change over. Stop, kindest regards. Fax to N , heading duchess brown top,in U S A underline. Some time Neville I would appreciate it if you could let me have what tonnages we received, ex the nineteen ninety one harvest which we have with exceed and seed research of Oregan stop, end of fax. Good afternoon, erm I wonder if it's possible to book a table for high tea on er Tuesday the twenty first, that's er Easter Tuesday Right, Tuesday, twenty first Mm that's okay, what time sir? Erm, what time do you serve it up to? Erm, high tea's from five until seven Five until seven Aha I would say probably about half past six Alright, for how many? Er for five For five and the name is? That's lovely we'll see you on Easter Tuesday That's great thank you very much indeed Okay, much obliged bye bye Bye bye Bye This is a fax to Teagasc T E A G A S C see in er for the attention of Doctor Vincent and head it air freight charges on Aaron. Good morning Vincent, I'm enclosing copies of faxes received this morning from New Zealand, and certainly the rate quoted is more realistic, then drop down a line and put eighteen by two point nine five pounds, oblique kilo, equals fifty three pounds, ten pence, next line documentation, twenty pounds, next line customs clearance etcetera, thirteen New Zealand dollars, I'd say Irish pounds, three point three, O, O equals nine pounds approximately and total it up, eighty two pounds, ten pence which is approximately a third less as you see David suggests you lean heavily on Air Lingus and point out at the same time that Challenge Seeds have no intention of paying this exorbitant rate, also what is a consolidation rate? It seems to cover a multitude of sins. Look forward to hearing from you, best regards, Sam. Hello Sam I, I want to talk to you about er the conversation I had with Alec yesterday, he seems to be inundated with having to get details about on his er, all his paperwork and so on, and he seems to be inundated and he sounded a bit low, quite frankly, to me yesterday on the phone that he was getting inundated with all this Mm, mm work. I said I'm quite sure there must be something that could be done computer-wise Right but he sort of pooh-poohed it and sort of said well you know, we're getting a bit to old for all this modern sophistication of computers and so on, well I said well quite frankly I am not totally in agreement with you, because as you probably know Clyde was looking into a program which will could alleviate a lot Yes I know, I know of the work, that I do, but I yes it's on the would tell you right here and now, er I'm still retaining my bible you know the book Yeah, yes, yes that I have downstairs, because it's, if it was to be computerized, it would be a massive great bloody great volume Yes and I would be carrying this around and it just wouldn't be feasible Quite, right so he said that apparently whenever he came back to B S H he was told by Neville roughly about eighteen hundred acres would be sort of his target Target, right and it's, it's multiplied by about three or four times that you see Oh right, right, right so consequently he's getting inundated, he really is apparently under pressure Mm, mm, right so this is why I raised the very conversation about it Right, right and er, I said well look I'll have a word with the erm, with and see if he can think of anything that might Yes alleviate the point all things in mind that are possible on er, on er, on er computer, and he said that he hadn't much time to think about it and said well look, maybe over Easter Mm put down on a piece of paper what essentials you want done Right and what things that you're liable to get asked Right, mm, mm so he's going to do that, so I said well look, do you mind if I had a wee sort of prelim talk with him Right see if, if it's a possibility Right What he's looking for is certified numbers, field numbers That sort of all this sort of information right, well the, the, well there's good news on that front because in our, in the actual new version of the seeds package which we have now Yeah erm developed and it's gonna be released in the next few months Right there is er, a very complex and detailed er section for a oh and indeed keeping the history of fields and so on Right oh I see in that and I know Alec has seen the previous version of this package Right and er it was certainly er then, a very primitive Yeah, yeah erm package and it has been developed now to quite, quite a high level of sophistication Oh good Now that certainly should cater for all his requirements, the only problem that Alec will have to go through now, is that actually get all this information Yes, right keyed into the system Yeah, yeah erm and since the volume has increased quite dramatically Yeah he's heavenly gonna need outside help to do this Well that's when I said to him, I said have you any outside help, and he said well really, no It's just him it's him I, you see that, that, that, initially he is gonna have a problem You see he's so Yeah and then he's coming back to this mass of work He has to get it done and er, and, and, he feels look, well I'm caring with it now but some time Mm four eyes, as he calls it, is gonna get Uptight about it, yeah No, no, he, he'll, well, no Alec is going to get uptight about it Yes, yeah and the last person I want to see leaving is Alec Would be Alec absolutely cos I I think what he needs to do er is to say right, well there's a problem here, go to Netherlands Alec, they need help here to get things set up That's right because I'm ab I'm absolutely convinced having seen the package Yeah erm Sam, it does produce er you know tremendous information Yeah and it's easily updated because er from what I've seen now you can actually key in sort of the acreage and then update the crop inspecting reports Right and each time you go out and look at the crop update Right that very, very easily Oh I see and print out a variety of reports on that Yeah and then erm it will as you go along, as the crops are actually growing in the fields, you can change the yield on it so as Oh, aye as, as it gets near to the harvest you can come to Yeah, yeah quite a close estimate of what the Estimate, yes, yes the harvest is gonna be Oh that's excellent because er I said, he said oh I don't want to be lugged with a big computer sort of thing and so on, so I said well you might, you might be able to get It's a little portable thing that can Yeah go out with you and you, you can push a button and it'll come up with a standard form That's and click on the informat information that you've got already on it and whenever you come back home, or not, into work, you plug it into the master and it it boots in That, that is certainly, you know, it, that can be, and, and it's something which we'll probably look at a wee longer term Well what, what sort of made me say that was because er across the crevy well at least all these travel ones are Yes all these little little manual things, yeah hand held terminals, yeah and they go out Yeah and they can do all the measurements and the trial grounds and so on Right and then come back in Right and push it into the big and download it into the system Yeah Yes that, that's certainly something which I know computer applications Well are now currently looking at must do erm, but the one other area which I'm sure Alec would find useful for as well, this new thing, er it's trying to find as many benefits for them Yes that's right as possible to make it easier for them to set it up, is that we're hoping to develop within the next er few months in fact, a certification form Oh system yes so in fact what will happen is, they will have all the details about the fields and so on Yeah and then they will be able to generate all the certification forms for the Ministry Right so Alice, er what do you call, Alec at the present I wonder does Alec time, he does all that manually I wonder does Alec been told about this? I don't think he may have been told about that, now he himself if he knew about that, that might be sufficient digging him over this hill That's right, correct because at the other side of the hill he can see well, life's gonna be a lot easier You know Alec er , Alec comes up and informs me and I always say well Alec how are things, urgh, do you want the good news or bad news first sort of thing Yes, so it's not easy, yeah. No well that's alright, maybe if, er you are talking to him, I don't know whether you do talk to him Well I don't, Alec's probably er one person who I don't speak to a lot really Yeah, right because er If you are Yes and you get talking about always see if I am Aye mention that, yes Aye, aye mention that and say that you Yeah you have Mm possibly something that's coming along in the Yeah pipeline that would alleviate his problem. I think it's always the problem Sam where people have used a manual based system for so long Yeah, that's right and that the new technology coming in, there is, in the early stages of a lot of to you work put in to actually set up the system Yeah but once they've gone through that pain barrier Yeah and got it set up and running Yes things then start to taper down again Right, okay er, but there is a very steep learning curve Yes to go through right and a lot of people do fight against it, and I, I can understand it er, it's so different to me Yeah, well he sort of said oh we're, we're a bit old for this or something, I don't know what Alec is, I thought he was only early forties or something I think he's probably mid, mid, mid late, mid late forties probably could be forty something, mid forties mid late forties, yeah I thought it was rather strange er I admit, but I, I sort of, I think I've got him round Yes that he's going to sit down Right over the, over the, over the holiday period holidays and look at it and just, is it all you have to do is jot down what you want from the terminal Yeah or what information you want on this thing and what generally information is asked of you Mm, mm from maybe Neville or me or somebody No cos I mean, that's what prompted all this cos I was getting some information from my right ninety one harvest So that's it, okay Well he should have that all on the system That's grand okay Okay Sam thank you very much indeed Pleasure Is that two O three one N? Zanussi two O three one N is correct a Zanussi two O three one N with a remote control I tell you what you can find out about them is Well I, I, what I'll do is I write off to them, and say what I do is, can't remember where, where we bought it, I think it was Comet There's no er, no you don't Comet they're chosen they're terrific er No, well they're closing down for the, all the more reason they must have a big stock big stock Well right, well then, how long has, how long has that been going? Er, that's a good question, four or five years, more Must be more four years and er, er, oh it must be ten next, ten been here eight We had it fixed, we had it fixed before Christmas Mm, mm and it just went and we had to get these guys who, who did the washing machine Right they were somewhere out in the North Road Mm, mm on the North Road Aha but they came out collected the set, we managed to borrow a set from elsewhere Mm, mm and it was bloody and erm This was at Christmas? this right at just oh god you know? Yeah Couldn't of happened at a worse time Worse time and erm they had it back within a week and it cost twenty eight quid Oh that wasn't too bad and they gave a list of what they did Yeah that wasn't bad was it? and they cleaned it and everything Yeah and, we must say it was very warm Yeah, right, oh that's good. I mean, most is labour and we have to when you think er A call out today a call out is twenty quid twenty quid it's thirty quid here That's right Some fella told me that only a couple of weeks ago, but the greatest rip off of them all, have you heard the greatest rip off about Betty and the, and the roof? Oh yes she did Oh she told me, I, I felt sorry but er I told her before, I said he was a con I knew, it's so easy I said er, you wanna make sure like er Get a price get a price before he climbs up er is thirty quid okay? Well he climbed up on the roof and he came down again and whatever he done, there was nothing wrong with the roof for a start That's right and then he charged it and er she if, she know, she couldn't do anything but pay him Mm, mm och oh she was conned but when he came, he came back for the money he came back she told them that, that's mine, she told them that I didn't think much of this and I thought it was a rip off and he had the nerve to say that is the first time I've ever been said about it the first time ever he, all he did, he kind of Cemented something No, no he, he unstuck er a drain and then said he did something on the roof Mm, mm there was nothing wrong with the roof, the roof was all heavy fixed, for Mm, oh well we all learn by our mistakes Yeah, I tell you, even Ian now is very about paying bills and, and Barry I say hit the roof when he heard that one Oh these people that I don't have people that call at the door, I want somebody I get them That's something, that's something I must He did a couple of things on the roof that's something, but this thing reaches publicity stage, which it could in a couple of weeks time, appear in a paper, you'd have all sorts of weirdos What, what's this? cold calling, once they've put the house on the market as such they start the advertising of the house Yeah, yeah, yeah Are they going to advertise it or are they not? Er are It's in the Irish Times like on the property section I know that, but there are ways on a Friday there are ways of doing that they don't do that, you know there's a thing I well they may just put it, a photograph of it in their offices, they may not put it in the paper Mm and then your man also told me, he said, this is something you have to watch them, John says they've already paid that for doing all the advertising Mm, mm and I said well why did you pay them before they, the job had been done Yeah oh that's the way we did it and we got it something off, this guy also said which some auctioneers like who are highly recognized Mm you can do a deal Mm, mm whereas they will work on a lower percentage of the house sale Mm, mm than what is tendered Mm, mm and you can do a package deal as such, but you incorporate all the advertising they do, but you'll have to get in there and kind of knock a deal out Mm, right you don't say I want my house sold full stop, cos they'll make you that Well we have , yes that's right, they could do it er, and you say, you said you have to watch them Er what you're saying then is that the house then is being, gonna be put up It's gonna be put on the market, but that Aye doesn't mean it's gonna be sold, after,af supp supposedly after Easter Oh that is when the so called, which is another point I don't agree with, the so called tide comes in, that people are more interested in buying houses Well that actually is true Yeah well that is The general it is true but Yes Yeah in this particular area you sell a house any time Er I, well in this particular area well if people have money if the people have money Well they do, look, the rich people can buy a house any time they want Mm, mm and the rich will buy a house in this area, like you have Embassy people Mm who, who buy, have fixed up staff in Dublin, where did they fix them up around here, I mean er, so many different Embassies are understaffed Well you see somebody who's who's if, if they buy it they're going to say well they have to do this one Yeah, yeah, yeah want to make that all different there, the kitchen all in one and the utility room have They also want to sell their own house as well probably Well if they had a house to sell if they're moving Yeah there'd be people come along It's more likely you'll get somebody that's Well you'll get people coming along surely out of curiosity And you get the one And they're the ones you need to watch and you get the walkers as well saying I'll give you er No, if it's strictly by Oh yes only view by appointment only and it happened the first That doesn't cover, see after the first night they don't give appointments to any I know the time, you've got people who stay, who stay I understand this, the selling of the house will not take place here at all, it'll be taken away from the house No it's the appointments to view , we're talking about and also there be no auctioning out furniture in the house or any other Oh yes, yes No, no , no but they'll, they'll have to people that view it they know that, people to come to see the house you can, you can state the time to go what somebody comes to that, tomorrow and knocks at that door and says look I've been sent here by you say good bye, good night, good luck nothing has been said to me, I know nothing about this And you have to be firm and not let anybody in Once you have let anybody in they'd chop you up and put you in their next stew Oh aye certainly yes oh I can believe that, that's quite true, but you get a lot of deal, I mean even that, when we were selling our house, there were people a lot of people Oh knew, knew the minute walking, walking in, that they were only just coming in just to see Yeah how the live Yeah, but in fact, in Betty's case you can see the difference in Betty's, in Betty's That's why I don't want to have any placards out there, no way Aye, cos we even had people where, where, where the placard you see, people'll say oh that house, I wonder if they'll let us have a look at it now as they're passing And they annoy you and they come in and, and, at your meal times Yeah and had one on New Year's Eve or Christmas Eve or something, they came in, a couple were passing, well they were only on holidays and they were looking, well our house is different I mean They don't, they don't think of, they think of themselves Oh God some people But I mean that some people actually do drive around in area I dunno whether I know for a fact that people have actually got the wind that this pub is going to be on sale, on sale Yeah even before we have mentioned it well I know that's, that's Well you remember when mummy was, when mummy was alive there was a man came to the door and said if you're ever selling let me know Oh they always do that yeah let me know yeah, you can't totter a bit without them being on it, they're like vultures sitting on a rail there, looking at you Mm Darling you, darling you weren't in the house the time when she, this man wasn't very well on, she saw him up at her window and she saw he wasn't very well on the other side of the road and she sent down to ask him to come in and she gave him a cup of tea and everything and she was talking She was on her own? Yes, she was on her own and she was talking to well she thought it was a bit peculiar then, luckily she either got Mr or She's always doing that somebody else to come and apparently he escaped out of a prison somewhere, she's Yeah, she was always doing it And, well mummy thought she was doing a good she was desperate and she'd be walking and she helped him , cos he wasn't well and they, then they send for an ambulance and at the the man, he wasn't really well you'll be walking down the street Yeah I know, I've heard that Yes and they sent for er Mr sent for an ambulance and all, but he refused to get into it, once he heard the ambulance was coming he was all Once he saw the fellows with white coats , that's why he ran so he was aye sure she had another, she, she allowed er another fel Oh she had a prince here no, she had another fellow used the garden to plant take and he used to come up pissed out of his mind at night Oh that was the fellow who that was oh he used to leave her cabbages and things at her back door Oh he was terrific, he had green fingers oh yeah then he got worse and worse, he got worse and worse, he got worse and worse and then he just disappeared You see, before that, that land behind us, before it was all built on, it used to be plots and you know the man coming up with the Oh yeah, yeah, yeah you know, throw something over the wall to you, but that was many, many years ago. do you remember we took your mum down the That was during the war years No I, I was only a baby then, I wouldn't remember that but the clock stopped Yeah the clock were there I was only a baby Little baby all around er look and up round that way, and she couldn't get it over Oh yes she said I never thought I You couldn't get it over? would see this again Yeah, yeah but she said also that er, she's made, she couldn't get it over, I couldn't get it over the houses myself Aye, they were there's no recognition at all, once the , nursery sold their land Oh the that's right I remember we did business with them all the houses went up, now these were respectable houses Mm, mm but then on top of that a whole exploded and the people, the people said hello, hello, there's no way I'm gonna have a breed of No exactly little travellers coming over my wall, so they all sold up and got out Yeah now there are some very nice houses there, but the security system, you're constantly at it Yeah at night these guys are constantly repairing his car and that's what I said originally Yes I said did they breed them like flies up there? That's right, that's right Er when you have ten in a family they wanna half of them are, from one day to the next They're not interested anyway There's daddy er, daddy nearly knocked out she nearly knocked down a woman, a child in er Who's having tea? Summer Hill, up around the back end of I'd love a cup of tea er in the centre of the city Right Excuse me and er all these lolling around he was raving, you know daddy ah look after your children, keep them off the streets blah, blah, blah Yeah, yeah ah shut, they're easily got she says What did she say George? That's what she said that, they're easily got Oh my God. Well I remember a doctor and a rich man saying to me, I'm gonna get out of this place, it's just like a yeah, I remember I did Oh I mean, I, the best one I heard we were up in Ann and myself er Is that my cup? I think that's yours isn't it? Rochers town, we were only a short way and we went to this house, we were only young coppers, and we had this friend call on us and we looked out, he was going back into the car and he looked down the street and he said, my God there's an awful lot of children around here, they must do nothing but screw all the time oh, at the top of his voice, and all these neighbours turned I think so and there was another one across the way and she was deteriorating, she was getting nervous right there, see if I had to be brought away you know Yeah she was a kind of an early person in the mist with all these horrible little snotty kids Oh God See if that's warm enough that looks like mushroom soup What about coffee or, or, another coffee for you Sam? I'm okay Yes I have I have worked Yes is that hot? Is that water? Yes it is Well then I'll have another cup I was just wondering is it hot enough? sit down and relax for God's sake I'm alright, I'm quite happy just to walk around I've been sitting, sitting down Do you take sugar? No, no, thank you Now, I think, I put Now then a little of this water so anyway I go into this doctor and I erm please and and all, and I ain't been feeling well and all and this no I don't like them at all he says, now my doctor had been given me this one Why should you sit on the hard one? Cos I like a firm seat and then she go and get all the three different inhalers, one for two blows in the morning twice in the morning and the evening Are you still standing a lot no? I'm going on a diet, I'm gonna start a low fat diet We're eating a biscuit the picture's hanging crookedly no the thing is, if you're standing a lot Slight that's right, that's it it's very bad for your varicose veins Yes, well done Okay Do you get, do you get erm breathless going up and down stairs? Yes Yes he does, he just can't get up properly I don't have to get I don't have to get up and down stairs, No I was going I was going to to a friend's husband's funeral Oh yes, yes, yes and if the, the hill up to the chapel it's in Down Patrick and it's on the very top of the hill and it's it's deep that The one that's really deep and You were running he's out , oh you ran up and I thought he was going to die when I got into the go like this No, but it was such to see sense it was so er, no he shouldn't do it it was so erm steep and it took him half the service to get over, just, well then in the equity I am not fit, I'm gonna lose weight and do exercise I know exercise, that was a year ago it's all very well joking about I walk out I'm not joking about it I walk out to the bus, I get on the bus at the end of Care Street, I walk right along Care Street, right up Dawsons Street, brisk walk and then I'm walking around the garage, I don't do that much walking now, the bloody car, but I take a walk at lunchtime and I walk down to the bar, walking, if you walk, that would be total couple of miles a day that's why I'm thin and slim and you're fat and la, la, la, la You're, you're You're, you're probably one of these you burn horrible types that can eat and eat and don't put on an ounce No, no it's affecting me now, I can't eat that much, because if I, like, I eat I've put on, I'm twelve stone I'm twelve stone I used to be ten stone, er all my life I was ten stone seven, eleven stone But since he's been up here, he's been eating me out of house and home and he doesn't pay for it That's because you cook for him I'm not going to cook any more, I'm going to dry rye biscuit now and lettuce very little I go and buy stuff in town and I leave her money in various places, to find it, but she doesn't find it You don't find it then ? One of these days I'm going to tell them A treasure hunt He looks like Dracula now in this When you go and fall into somebody's arms I won't be around to hold it Hold that cup up in the air You want to tell them, bring the tourist around show them the spot The spot? where you spilled your blood he did a good job on it, good job she was saying upstairs sitting in the bed saying don't get a, don't get a doctor Oh ya if you get the doctor out, so I had to ring you, once you had said yes, what's it, what's the hell with her She was annoyed, she said why didn't you get here earlier? Yeah now you're here, I said I have to put up with this If he keep going about nervous because of what do you mean, you can't say, I'm practically alright there's Anyway nothing wrong with me I've no doctor at the moment What? No doctor Why? Doctor has been given a big job in Trinity He says he's given up his practice, well he's not, he's still I'll just have to leave the country quickly There you are He hasn't given up the practice but he's, he's still a partner and he does a large weekend duty for us all Surely, surely he's transferred his patients to somebody else? Yes he has, to a lady doctor And where, where is it? Doctor Penny but he said you may not always get her, you probably get or doctor or Yes doctor they're in the, the three of them There a whole lot, you don't get he's still the head of the, the practice I know but you're still but he's, he's the more that has all the qualifications, he has more than any of the others Och eh they all have qualifications Oh I know the others have and they've all been at medicine for years, they've had that Listen for a guy I don't know and he did, he does I know you never liked him, but that's if he He didn't like you, he didn't like you, he didn't take to you at all had no time for you Would anybody like salmon Mar erm No I'm okay here, no I Would you like a salmon? Oh I certainly would So would I I'll tell you I'll do I'll say, say, we're, we're not as fussy as you We've only got, we've only got, what's our sal what's our fish then Well it's tuna then It's lovely Tuna, I love tuna fish Can you have a tuna sandwich there love, if you can get hold of one there's corned beef and tomato Tuna You're not sure of No Oh it does look as if Just say when you want your I'll do it would you like a salm ? No, no, not for me thanks Do you want a coffee Margaret? Yes please Bill, Bill Do you want one of these Well I'm using the lid so it's alright, well give me, give me, there should be another one. Hello, what's that, you been, have you been writing letters? Aye. That for me, thanks very much, that's nice, oh can I have that as well Natalie? Well now, what have you been doing to your eyes? She's been screaming all ear. Eh. Eh. in my ear. Your ear? What, is that that ear sore? Is it? No. No? It's this one. Is it the other one? Let's have a wee look in with my torch . . No. Sit on your Gran's knee. Come on sweet. No. Just a min just Come on he's gonna look in my eye. No, no. Look. Natalie, Look. it's gonna look in my eye. Look Oh look, this is where we're getting . Oh look Natalie. Behave, come on . Natalie look, look. Oh Look, it's just a wee light . Look at the wee light. Look it's just a wee light. It's not, it's not gonna be sore for sit up. Come up and sit on your Gran's knee for a wee while. Oh Jamie, Jamie. That's it, just a wee while, we're not, we're not gonna you. That's a wee girl. That's it. Yeah, you've got a very , that's it. All done. That's it. It's all done. You were crying, you were just getting on weren't you, you were just getting on? You were just getting on? You were just getting on, weren't you? You were just getting on. She thought I was coming up with my eye. Aha. What about your Grannie , we'll give your Gran some nice medicine or some nasty medicine? No. No? Would you like some nice medicine? No. Would you not? Gran. Your Gran, right. What's your Gran's name? Will we give her nice medicine or nasty medicine? Nasty medicine? Oh thank you very much Natalie, her eyes Yes, aye, it's the same. I think she's got trouble with her sinus in here, and it's blocked the tube Aye. here and here and that's where the trouble's coming from. Just see just see wee black things in my eye. Yes. Wee black yeah . Wee black things, that's right. That's right. Oh she was screaming this morning. Ear drum instead of being straight up and down like that, it's pushed a way out, Ah. it's stretched , squeezing it from the inside. And her mummy and daddy's away at work, and I said, If I leave it till Hey are they? Making lots of pennies for you? Well they now. Oh aye. He was made redundant . Now then. One two three, she's what, she's four now? Four. I see the . That's the bad one, he's always in a bad mood isn't he? He's That one . No. Can you see Thomas? Where's Thomas the Tank? No, that's That's not Thomas the Tank Engine at all, you're just kidding me on. No, No. no. I cannae see it either. Where is he? Come on, no,. Look, here, can you see this, look, one two three, up you go. Oh yes at the very top. Right at the top, look, right at the Natalie. top, look. Nat , that's him . Yeah, that's Thomas, you silly thing. That's the wee cookie. Who's a silly? Who's a silly ? Right thanks very much . Right, okay, right. I'll come and tickle you again. No. Oh, Say, Bye. Come on, And here I come to get you. Right, okay Mrs . Hello. This is the last in our series of programmes about computers. During the last couple of months we've talked about every possible aspect and application; in science, in industry, in commerce and at a home; both of computers and of microprocessors. Today, and in conclusion, we're going to have a more general look at society of the future and ask question such as‘How different will it be because of these devices?’. And to help me provide some answers, I have with me Dick Grimsdale, who is Professor and Dean of the School of Engineering and Applied Sciences at the university; Joe Turner, who is a Developmental Psychologist; and Peter Dauber, who is a Physicist and colleague of mine. Peter, I'd like to start with you. When we were walking over here this morning, I was suggesting to you that in fact computers, really, were numeric devices — they did arithmetic _ and I'm not sure you actually agreed with me. Well I felt that although, obviously, computers do do arithmetic and they do it very quickly, to me probably the more important aspects are the fact that one has a visual display on the computer screen which can convey information without numbers in a more rapid way to most people. Although most people are numerate, I think that they respond quicker to this visual display. You can put a histogram on the machine, without actually having the numbers there, and this conveys information, I think, visually very rapidly. And do you think that's really going to be an application, as it were, that will appeal more to the lay person rather than person that uses a computer for business or professionally one way or another? Well I think to both. I think both in the lay person, as you say, it will be more immediately obvious what a computer's doing if you have a visual display, but even in the scientific approaches then I think the ability to present graphical information rapidly and change erm the function that you're looking at is also very important and, for instance in the teaching that we do here, then one of the things that we're very keen on is using computes to show graphically sort of functions that you meet in mathematics and physics. I think we must be careful to be sure that we're talking about a particular group in society in a sense, because you've used words like ‘graphical’ and ‘functions’and so forth and that seems to me to be limiting the section of society that we're talking about — perhaps, what are we talking about, one in ten, one in four, certainly not more than that? What about the lay person, the man or woman in the street or in the home, will they actually use computers in a graphical sense? Well I think that we've seen the erm tremendous growth in word processors, and this is erm an area which I feel will develop enormously, and it really would be quite possible for nearly every home to have a word processor within it. That is a form of typewriter, whereby it's possible to generate a letter and, unlike an ordinary typewriter, if you make a mistake it is very easy to make the corrections because the word processor gives you the opportunity to have a look at the letter on a television screen before it is finally typed on paper. But will the paper be necessary? Because what it will be possible to do quite easily is to connect these word processors to the telephone system and transmit erm the letter from one place to the other. Also, it will be possible to transmit instructions concerning money. It will be possible to make purchases remotely with the use of these systems. It's perhaps being talked of rather jocularly that erm the supermarket will be able to present the latest price list on the screen, but that really is quite possible, it could almost happen almost happen overnight. It does require, however, a certain amount of erm investment. Everyone will have to buy one of these machines and erm at the moment we might have to pay perhaps about a hundred pounds, but perhaps later these will become very, very cheap indeed and just will become part of the television set. Are you looking forward to this age, Jo? Yes, I mean this is what interests me most, I think, the sheer convenience of it. I think it will affect working women, or in fact anybody working, both directly and indirectly, and in fact the whole public indirectly, in that that sort of facility, to be able to shop, as it were, at home, will be extremely convenient and so will a facility that reminds you when things are due — a sort of, you know, household secretary really that can keep a check. I think there is a problem in that, I mean, as you know, at the university now we could actually send our mail, and we do have this facility on certain displays and you just put in mail and you see if there's any waiting for you. In fact we don't use it. We haven't even got a system, as far as I understand it, that's compatible, so that it's possible for me to send my reading lists to, for instance, so they can be picked up by the library. And that is just in one institution. I think we'll have to think very carefully that our systems are compatible so that one home can send mail to another and that I would like. This is one of the difficulties, getting everyone to agree on erm standards for transmission and standard formats for erm for letters and erm the like. I mean if we don't have compatible systems, then it's not going to make a lot of it will make a difference, but not going to make as much difference, but I think if we do it could it really could be revolutionary. I did also say indirectly. I think the problem here is that others, obviously banks and other industries, will be using computers and there will be a tendency then for people, when things go wrong or when they don't understand, to become further removed from the technology. Like at the moment where people don't understand television sets, or can't repair them. There will be a tendency, when everything comes from the computer, you hear it already, ‘oh it was the computer’, and that, I think, we want to try to change as quickly as possible. It's always the programmer — it's very, very seldom the computer — and if I could just go on for a minute, I feel it's essential that young children, particularly in the primary schools, get used to using hardware and programing, so that they will see the computer as part of their normal lives, like reading and writing and anything else they use. I wonder whether we are actually going to have that sort of society? All these things are technically possible now, essentially, but do we actually want these things to happen? It seems to me that they all have implications so far as people's lives are concerned — their activities, their rewarding work, in a sense. What will they do, other than sit at home and press buttons and send messages to each other? What will happen to all the postmen? What will happen to all the people that perhaps do what we regard a slightly mechanical work, but nevertheless get a rewarding activity out of it. The acceptance, I think, will be by the general public. If the general public like the scheme then it will take off. If they don't, it will never happen. I think that people will actually decide for themselves. If the system is good, it's attractive. If it gives them some real advantages, then it will get used. I don't think we will get a totally computer-based society by any means. I don't think the society I don't think people will want this, but there could be certain things which could be quite convenient. I find erm the erm money dispensers at a bank very convenient. There are one or two things like that I think people will find very useful. Other things people will reject. I remember a very difficult erm problem I had when I erm was ordering some goods from a mail order firm and I kept on getting letters back after replies to mine, from the computer, and these letters were totally unconnected with my letter and I found this very very frustrating. Now this is bad management and it mustn't happen. If this is the way it is going to go the public will reject it, so it's got to be done in a very humane and very human way. It's got to be done with a great deal of sensitivity and intelligence if these systems are going to take off. I mean isn't it really using a computer is merely a facilitator, like using a car is a simple way of transport, and therefore whether or not it facilitates is nothing to do with the system itself, it's to do with the way in which it's used. I mean we may not like heavy lorries thundering along, whereas we do like ambulances, and computer use is precisely the same. I mean the ability to use computers is with us, how we use them is really up to us. I don't think we could imagine a society without them now. I mean it's like imagining one without the wheel or something. Yes, yes, you've triggered off another thought by talking about transport. Computers and improvements in communication erm can reduce the requirements for transport. They can reduce the need for computing. We see many people going from Brighton to London every day and erm one might ask whether that's entirely necessary. We could see the growth of cottage industries again, with people working either in their homes or close to their homes, with very good communication facilities between them. That is, I think, another great benefit that could be reaped from these developments. But on the other hand, we can write to people, we can telephone them, or we can go and see them. I personally prefer to go to see them, at least the people that I like to see. Are we not creating the sort of society in which people will be stuck in their little boxes, very remotely from each other, communicating through messages and lacking all personal warmth and communication? No, I think that erm you'll be relieved of a lot of duties that took a lot of time and this will give you more leisure time to have your personal contacts and sport and other pleasure activities. I think it could be beneficial in this sense and not, as you say It'll give you more space and more time to do these things, yes. Yes, I was going to say there is one problem. We've been talking about them as facilitators and the need for compatibility, I think there's also a need for every system to have a back-up of some kind, either of power or maybe a manual back-up, which in fact we were talking about the other evening. There is nothing more annoying than a computer system that works beautifully, say, in a library, and then one goes in at nine thirty in the morning and you can't get books out because the power has gone off, and if we are sure to go on having a society with industrial disputes, we want a system that is not capable of being completely ruined by one small section of workers deciding not to work on a particular day, and so I think while we're putting them in, while we want to put them in in a way which that is compatible, we also need to think of having a kind of fail-safe system, particularly in the sort of more serious applications such as medicine and transport and so on, whereby we can't be held to ransom by very a small group of people, or indeed by just some technical fault, such as a power failure or something of this kind. mhm Because that is the real negative side of it, if it doesn't work. Do you think women are at a disadvantage so far as this computer age is concerned? Is it a sexist thing, a computer? Well, whenever women are at a disadvantage it is usually because somebody has put them there. It doesn't just happen in nature, and I don't really see why women should be at a disadvantage, unless it follows in the tail of many of the other disadvantages, which are actually made by society and culture, not by biology. And perhaps very, very lastly, what sort of time scale are we looking for? Are we looking for the year two thousand, or are we looking for a hundred years later than that, or what?— the sort of age we have been describing in this programme? I'm thinking of a time scale of about ten years ahead. Only about ten years? So if we were sitting round this table in ten years time, we would actually be talking about what was commonplace, not what was coming at some distant and far off point? Yes, I'm surprised to hear the ten years. If would have thought we should have had it two years ago, if we'd got moving, but we haven't. Well that's really quite remarkable. Thank you very much, Jo, Peter and Dick, and that's all that we have time for today. Next week is the last programme from the current batch of Ideas in Action, and also happens to be our hundredth programme. To celebrate the centenary, we shall be having a lighthearted look at the university, and also some of the programmes that we have presented so far — the bits that went right, and some of the bits that went wrong. We hope that you'll join us next week. Until then, goodbye. Today we have two parts to our programme. First, I shall be continuing our series on computers, and we'll be dealing with microprocessors. Secondly, I shall be talking with Colin Thompson and John Drury about some of the implications of Vatican Two and the forthcoming visit of the Pope. First then, continuing our series of programmes on applications of computers, today we're going to look at the so-called microprocessor, and to help me do this I have Doctor Fred Halsall and Doctor Paul Lister, who are engineers and specialists in this particular area. Fred, what is a microprocessor? It certainly isn't different from a microcomputer. It has lots of similar properties to a larger computer, in so much that it has a similar, what is referred to as a central processing unit, and in some instances similar peripheral devices, but if one can imagine that for certain applications where these have been collectively gathered together in erm the ultimate setting on a single integrated circuit, then one has a microcomputer, comprised of a microprocessor, some memory and some appropriate interfacing devices to the outside world. I'm still not entirely clear what a microprocessor is. Is it actually a computer that does things, as opposed to a computer that you do things to? I suppose, strictly speaking, the term is a truncation of a micro-electronic central processing unit, where the central processing unit is the heart of a computer, the thing that crunches the numbers and so on. And a microprocessor, therefore, in the traditional meaning of that term is a single chip that performs that function. The evolution of integrated circuit technology has been such that you've been progressively able to put more and more transistors down on a single integrated circuit, and so a microprocessor has got more and more powerful with the passage of time. Early microprocessors ten years ago were erm nothing much more than the calculator type of erm performance. Now we have microprocessor single integrated circuit processing units that are comparable with traditional mainframe computers in their power, but a microprocessor needs memory circuits and I O circuits to form a complete computer. Yes, I think this is what's tended to happen is people call the system, i.e. the central processing unit — which is really the microprocessor, the memory and the interface circuits — as a microprocessor, when really it should be called a microcomputer. I think this is generally true, isn't it? Indeed, yes. People have wrongly called it a microprocessor, when that really should be restricted to the processing unit itself rather than the complete microcomputer. To add to the confusion, perhaps, really, I think it's important to distinguish between single chip microcomputers and the sort of microcomputers that erm people imagine have keyboards and screens and things, personal computers, which are often called microcomputers and quite rightly. They are a rather different animal, as far as the sorts of applications are concerned, from single chip microcomputers — a single integrated circuit that has all the features, including the processor, of a computer that can be made very cheaply and embodied particularly in things like low cost domestic goods. Yes, I'm glad you mentioned that because all sorts of modern washing machines, for example, claim to have their own built-in computer. Are they serious? Is there really a little computer in such a device? Absolutely, yes. One of the major application areas of micro-electronic technology is in the use of single chip microcomputers, particularly to replace timing functions in domestic goods. One of the rather elaborate and erm potentially unreliable components in a washing machine is the controller. Ask anyone with a washing machine . It's an electro-mechanical device, with contacts and so on that tend to corrode and all the rest of it, and that sort of thing can be very conveniently replaced by a small microcomputer. Isn't the problem that you have to replace the whole unit if something goes wrong? Yes, if one separates the controlling element, i.e. the timing, the sort of electro-mechanical aspect of it from the controlled interfaced circuits, i.e. the motors and the drive electronics that go with that, i.e. one compares the reliability of the let's assume the single chip microcomputer replacing the electro-mechanical conventional timer, then the reliability is n times better. You not only get reliability with microcontrollers, single chip microcomputers, but you get potentially a lot more flexibility. So that in, for example, something like a washing machine, the scope for adding many more different types of programme — temperature programme, water saving erm programmes and so on — is greatly enhanced, without significantly altering the hardware. Another example of that, in fact, is erm the traditional teleprinter. Of course in local industry here we're very strong, or were very strong in the traditional electromechanical teleprinter field, and erm they have now moved into microelectronic solutions for such things and indeed, again, they're very strong in local industry here, and they're finding that the flexibility offered by using a microcomputer, not to mention the reliability and so on, is again greatly enhanced by the use the microcomputer rather than traditional movement of keys through bars and so on through to the heads, say, of the device. Another application that I believe has started, but hasn't got very far yet, is the use of these devices in cars. Is that something that's going to be more important in the future? I think so. There's a tremendous potential for cars, particularly for fuel economy and emission control. There are already cars available mhm that use microcomputers to control the erm ignition and fuel injection systems. Honda have just recently produced a motorbike that erm is microcomputer controlled. There's also things like head up displays for cars. Sorry, what do you mean ‘head up’ displays? Well this is the situation where you would ideally you don't want to have to look down at a speedometer. Oh, I see. I might add, very briefly, I mean this is a spin off of the traditional aircraft situation, where they're being used Military aircraft and so on. military aircraft as head up displays In an aircraft, of course, that's very much the situation where you can't afford to look down , Oh, I see. Particularly if you're flying under radar, along the ground, you haven't really got time to erm avert the eyes from the occasional tree. Displays of that sort is the future for cars. There's some very elaborate schemes proposed for reducing the amount of wiring in a car. The wiring harness traditionally is very, very time consuming The wiring harness is quite an expensive item in car and obviously manufacturers of cars are very anxious to reduce the cost as much as possible. The general idea is that erm you could replace the many wires that feed power to lights, horns and things of that sort by a single wire that just provides power to everything, along which you would send signals which would be decoded by micro-electronic components within the lamp unit to decide whether that should draw power or not draw power, and so you can replace the harness, effectively, with a single thick wire. Here we're talking, of course, about a number of linked systems, quite a number probably. mhm I suppose in the limit you might have ten, twelve, such systems in a car alone. I've certainly seen it sort of as a viable alternative for larger vehicles, you know, buses and this sort of thing. I think in some ways that particular example illustrates a characteristic of microcomputer systems in general, and that is that from a technological point of view what we're talking about is an extremely sophisticated approach to the problem, but the objective is very clear; that you come down to perhaps maybe a quarter or an eighth the amount of copper in the wiring harness. The effect Adding the complexity or letting the complexity be in silicone, which is very inexpensive and readily controlled and so on. Absolutely. And if this reduces the cost of several pieces of wire, well you know that's the way to go. Yes. Let's just move for a minute or two into wider applications, in industry. Microprocessors, these are the sort of devices which are used to operate lathes and do all sorts of tooling operations which historically were performed by people in assembly lines. Is that right? And presumably there's virtually no end to what these devices can do in a much more reliable way than perhaps human beings can do? One is maybe getting away slightly from microprocessors or microcomputers. erm certainly numerically controlled machine tools, they've been with us for a number of years now and there's no doubt about it that micro-electronics is having an influence, or advances in micro-electronics are having a way in which they are implemented, but I feel applications of that type it requires quite a large amount of flexibility in being able to program it to set up one machine, program it differently to set up another machine, say, or to produce one component and another component and so on, so that I think there one is thinking and looking at a more sophisticated type of computer than, say, a simple microcomputer that we've been talking about earlier. I think there's no doubt in the long term, anything frankly repetitive can be done perhaps automatically be a micro-electronic system. I think there's certainly a lot of activity concerned with doing some of the rather more creative thing with micro-electronic systems, and the time will come, I'm sure, when quite a lot of the skills that are normally exercised by people will be exercised by machines. I think the fundamental problem about the micro-electronic revolution is one of recognising that the whole skill base of the workforce is shifting and needs to shift. Our problem with society is how do we cope with that? How do we turn the people who would do semi-skilled jobs on machines into people who can programme numerically-controlled machines to perform that job more effectively and with much greater levels of productivity. I think in general terms, we were having a discussion only the other day, and thinking of possible applications of one form of another of microprocessors, only very generally I might add, but if we thought of an application which would save paying someone's salary on a weekly or monthly basis, then that would be attractive for obvious reasons, you know, that the sort of when one totals up wages and salaries over a full year then that's a significant saving to be made and therefore it justifies the initial investment cost in whatever the system might be. So I think inevitably that steps taken to try to reduce manpower as much as one can, unfortunately, and as Paul says I think the problem is trying to or adapting to the new situation. Well I'm sure that that's the way that things are going. I'm not quite sure what's going to happen to all the people that are unemployed because of this, but that I suppose is material for another programme. I gather you gentlemen have written a book ‘Microprocessor Fundamentals’. Is this a book that could be read, as it were, by the layman at all , or is it a complicated technical book. It arose, actually, the book, from a course in fact erm for current practicising engineers that we ran here at Sussex and indeed are still running, and engineers from many walks of life, different sort of areas of interest, have attended and I think found a lot of benefit from attending the course, so suppose it's aim primarily was someone with a background knowledge of engineering in its broadest sense, but Probably the ideal candidate for reading our book would be someone who would perhaps be involved in the manufacturer of erm products and, having recognised that washing machines are involved with microprocessors, are anxious to see if they can get any insight into the role that microprocessors can play And the design of the product. Yes, yes. in similar sorts of products. But it's written for the non-microprocessor specialist to try to show him the way to erm exploit these things. Yes, that's true, and also of course biased towards student population as well. Thank you very much Fred and Paul. And now for the second part of our programme. Religion unites or divides, and convictions still run very deep, but in recent years religious differences don't seem to have figured large in British life, except of course in Northern Ireland, and the disputes and controversies associated with the Reformation have largely been forgotten. Even so, I suspect that the visit of Pope next month wouldn't have been possible even a couple of decades ago. I recently talked with Colin Thompson and John Drury about the state of religion in Britain today. I started by asking ‘What sort of religion do the British favour?’. The kind of religion that people like in this country is to do, I think, with their sense of identity as being British people and following British habits and customs. The things that work — harvest festivals, Armistice Sunday, pancakes on Shrove Tuesday, all the details about who sits where at weddings and how you do that kind of thing — things which I suppose the more strictly religious people might regard as rather to one side of the central questions. Does it matter? Well sometimes I think it does and sometimes I think it doesn't. It depends what kind of mood I'm in. John, in terms of theology, are British people interested in theology at all? I think they can be interested when somebody speaks out in terms that they can understand. The Bishop of Woolwich, John Robinson, did this some time ago with ‘Honest to God’ and Don Cupitt, I think, is doing it at the moment too with his book ‘Taking Leave of God’. They can be interested on the central questions, if the central questions are sent in a framework that they do understand, and perhaps it's best when it's done by somebody who is bold, not afraid of being amateurish, not afraid of being controversial, because theology erm is a world that can mean obfuscation. Harold Wilson taught is that, and I think that was very much an Englishman's view that this is a lot of obfuscation. But if we can get through that and cut through, I think it does get a lot of interest. What's been happening in theology in recent years? It seems to me that lot of it's been dominated by various sort of rather obscure sounding Germans. Yes, the Germans have always had gigantic and very refined apparatus and have done a vast amount of hard work. The English have always been a little lighter on their feet, a little more amateurish, but the thing that has been happening, I think, is without a doubt the relativization of religion. erm that's a clumsy, and perhaps you might say a rather German way of putting it, but seeing religion as one of the things people do, one of the things that we can understand now that we're good at understanding history — we can understand how society works, we can understand that a person is interested in religion for psychological reasons because he is a certain kind of person, comes from a certain kind of family, and so from all sorts of angles religion is being understood and the cost is that it's not such an absolute thing as before. It's not something, as it were, that dropped out of the sky, that God dropped down. It's not just that, it's something that people make, like they make cakes or clubs, or anything else, and this is the interesting thing in religion at the moment, the relativization which scares people, of course, who want it to be an absolute authority which they can just debase themselves before. On the other hand, it certainly makes it more accessible. It's something you can understand and do and is part of human life. It sounds to me as if that sort of religion has nothing to do with God. Is that a sort of follow-up of the God is dead school of theology of about ten or twenty years ago? No, I don't think so, because I think the God is dead school of theology is well and truly dead. I think it's a question of understanding and perceiving what the meaning of the concept of God is outside a very narrow churchy kind of view. I think people in the British churches, and probably outside them, twenty or thirty years ago lived in a rather secure world and they understood that God was on the whole on the side of the British Empire and the missionaries as they went out to civilize other places, and that was true also of the other European forms of God. These days, as John has said, it's much more broken down than that. We have to come to terms with the fact that people's experience of God differs enormously and the way they talk about God differs enormously, and in order for us to understand even what we mean we've got to listen to them. There's a great deal of theological thinking of a very different kind going on outside Europe in the Third World, in Latin America and Africa, in India — the place where we used to think we sent our understanding of God for the heathen to be converted to it, and we're beginning to have to listen to those places and to receive what they have to give us, rather than thinking that it's all settled in our patch of the world. Is that the so-called liberation theology? Well liberation theology is one version of it that in certain parts of the world, particularly where there is great economic and political oppression, where people get locked up in prisons for believing and thinking differently, and where there is very real persecution of the poor, and those who erm have different ideas. The church has had to decide whether it's going to be on the side of the rich, the landowners, the establishment, who are a very small minority, or the poor, and generally speaking over the last fifteen or twenty years in Latin America it's opted to be on the side of the poor and underprivileged, and theology has grown out of that terribly real situation, not something you learn from books, but something you do because you don't have enough food in your belly, you can't provide for your family, the father's been locked up, and that kind of theology, that kind of understanding of God, is really rather alien, I think, still to the kind of concerns most Europeans will have because they don't face those very extreme conditions. It sounds to me that the sort of the theology that you're describing, Colin, and you described just now, John, is very much a theology in which religion is, as it were, getting out of the churches and into the homes and daily activities and concerns of ordinary people. Yes, I think it's becoming practical. People want to know it's cash value, they want to know what it does erm what it's worth in very practical terms. One event that seems to me to be very important is Vatican Two. A lot of discussion about religious matters seems to be pegged, to some extent, on what happened at Vatican Two. Is it as important as I suggest? Well I can only really, I suppose, talk from the point of view of Britain and Spain, which is the European country I know best. It seems to me that you get these big moments in the life of the church, as you do in the life of any institution, historically speaking, and it takes a long time for you to discover what the effect of them is going to be. Like the Council of Trent in the sixteenth century, nobody quite knew what all its decrees meant until they started putting them into practice, and a lot of them, and I suspect a lot of Vatican Twos, need to be interpreted. You've got, in fact, to work out what their proper significance is, but there's no doubt that it's seen as a kind of turning point, and although it was a Roman Catholic Council, its effect has been marked on all aspects of Christian life in Europe and, well, through the world. It erm I suppose released a great deal of pressure that seemed to have been building up. Perhaps erm pressure coming from local communities and ordinary people, rather than theologians at the top, and pressure released in order to allow for greater freedom, variety, flexibility, more open approach to other Christians and other religions, and to try to get rid of some of the obstacles that the past seems to place in our way. Now, it's not clear to me at the moment that that is going to be the direction, say, of the Roman Catholic Church, because we seem to have a much more conservative Pope and there are conservative movements growing up in all the churches, you've only got to look at Reagan's America and the way you find counterparts to that kind of religious conservatism in all the European countries. So I think it's a bit of an open question at the moment. Yes, Vatican Two, has been very significant, but nobody can quite see at the moment which direction it's going to leave us going in. Historically, religion mattered very much at a national level. People used to fight each other over religion. Does this happen in any sense these days, do you think, or is religion supsuned by politics and economics and other facts of life? I'm afraid it still does happen that there is fanaticism, which is fanaticism is, as I understand it, self-righteousness with a strong religious dimension, and it does happen and I've spoken of forces that erode it, but they can also exacerbate it, irritate it, into stronger activity, and of course we erm in the United Kingdom don't have to look very far to see that happening, and it is, I think, a very great threat. Nations have their own particular characteristics. Britain is mhm basically by constitution a protestant nation, erm most of Europe is Catholic. Is this going to, in fact, affect relationships between Britain and Europe in the future? I wouldn't have thought to any great degree. One of the I'm sure one of the results of Britain's closer links with Europe is that there is greater contact between churches speaking different languages across these Catholic/Protestant boundaries. I erm occasionally meet in this country and abroad the kind of Christian people that suppose it would have been quite difficult for me to have met before Britain came into Europe. There wouldn't have been those sort of opportunities. I would have thought that in many ways the divisions which exist in this country and in Europe over religious matters are not largely to do with our past. They are not to do with whether we're Catholic or Protestant, they're more to do with whether we're open or closed sort of people, whether we are willing to risk new ideas and the challenge of our old ones, or whether we want to scuttle away into our little corners and keep what we've got. I think those are the sorts of differences I observe and they're not to do with whether I'm a protestant or a Catholic, but what kind of human being I am almost. Yes, if I can just interject something here which I think is rather striking, when one used to go on holiday on the Continent, going to church was at the same time a bewildering an exciting experience because you couldn't understand what was going on. Roman Catholic services were in Latin, in somewhere like Brittany there was a very strong local way of doing it. Likewise in Italy. Now when one goes, there tends to be a sameness which can be a bit of a let down, that you find much the same kind of thing as you would find in a church in Brighton or Lewes going on in Naples, and I don't know quite how long this will last. I rather hope that local cuisine, local flavours, will reassert themselves. This is a minor thing, but in view of what erm Colin was saying about religion and nationality I think it's something that will matter. It might reassert itself. Yes, and I do hope that at the same time that we've been talking about how relatively practical religion has become, that we shall remember the mystery which it witnesses to. That's one of the things, I think, that the Roman Catholics who hanker after the old Latin Mass and its ritual miss the most, and I sympathize with them in the sense that there isn't a great deal of mystery about most of the worship in most of our churches any more, and whilst it's very right and proper for us to be very busy on practical matters, we mustn't forget that there are very mysterious questions about our purpose here, about death and life, which aren't answered simply by doing things and being very busy — in fact, that may be a form of escapism — we need both, and I would hope that there will be room again in Christianity in Europe for worship to become something which speaks to the things I find mysterious, and in that respect I think the interest in spirituality and religious experience, in mysticism, in all those sort of areas about one's personal religious life, and a lot of it not very orthodox or traditional. I think the interest that people have in those areas show that there is that hunger for a deep personal kind of faith, which they don't usually find when they worship in the churches. In other words, religion is still very important. Yes, certainly, because I think that it gives depth to life. It connects with the depth that we know is there. Thank you very much, Colin and John. That's all that we have time for today. Next week I shall be looking at applications of computers Hello. Today in our series on education we shall be talking about the handicapped. I have with me Eric Huton, who is particularly interested in the problems of children with special educational needs. Eric let's start by defining our terms. When you talk about children with special educational needs, do you mean handicapped children? Well I think the short answer to that, Brian, is yes we do, but it's an interesting time at which to ask that question because there have been recently some changes in the erm statutory provision for the education of what was previously called handicapped children. The previous act was in nineteen seventy, and indeed it was called ‘The Handicapped Children Act’, but this year, in fact at the end of this year, there was a new act passed ‘The Education Act of Nineteen Eighty One’, which refers to children with special educational needs, so we're really dealing with the same group, but describing them somewhat differently. And we're talking about children. That means, presumably, younger than eighteen/nineteen — what? Yes, well the new act, in fact, extends the previous provisions up to the age of nineteen, and also takes provision back before erm school age. And when we're talking about handicaps or disabilities, we're talking about people perhaps who are physically disabled and also perhaps mentally disabled Well, yes, I think you could say physically, mentally and emotionally. The Act actually says that we're concerned with children who have learning difficulties, which calls for special education provision, and to be more specific they refer to children who have greater difficulty in learning than the majority of children of that age, or disabilities which prevent or hinder them making use of the educational facilities generally provided. The Act was passed at the end of last year. What different is it going to make to education? Well, quite a number of changes have been introduced and perhaps we can deal with this in turn. But what I would like to say before we look at those is that the Act was actually based upon a report — the government set up a committee to look into special education several years ago, and this reported about two years ago. It's known popularly as the Warnock Report. Mary Warnock was the chairman of the committee. Perhaps I could take about the philosophy which is behind Warnock? The notion that you have a group of children that you can categorize, say like partially sighted, or maladjusted, or educationally subnormal, and that they should have a special education, is one that's been increasingly challenged over the years and I think the Warnock Report actually moves considerably away from that notion and says no, we don't want to separate off a particular group because they appear to have a single erm or even a multiple disability, what we want to do is to look at the needs of each individual child and ask what is it about that particular child that makes the achievement of education objectives more difficult than another child. Now they, in this report, point to the main aims of the education as being understanding of the world around one and also the ability to operate independently, or as independently as possible within that world. What about assessment? mhm It seems to me that this is crucial. There are some children that obviously have problems. mhm And these are clear and obvious to anyone. Yes. I have a child who, a number of years ago, we as parents got very worried about him mhm and sought advice, and we were told in fact that we were unlikely to get this because the headmaster of the particular school which he attended mhm didn't believe in educational psychologists, inverted commas . mhm Yes. This must be a problem, surely? Yes, indeed it is, and the Act is really very specific on that. erm I would suggest that anybody who's really erm concerned in the way you were can either approach their local Education Authority and ask them for some kind of information on this. One of the problems is at this very stage that the act is so new off the statute book that authorities, at the moment, under all the other pressures they're having to meet, are only just beginning to put together their new policies. Some are further ahead than others, but what will probably be expected of most authorities is some sort of erm perhaps a handbook or certainly some advice to parents about the implications of the new Act. But in essence what the government say is that erm the parents' rights as far as the, what is now called the statement — each authority must have a statement about children with special needs. These statements don't simply classify a child as falling into a particular group. They're more like a profile, and they will specify the kind of disabilities that the child has, the kind of progress that has been made, the kind of barriers that appear to be hindering the child from making progress. Now parents have a right, now, to see these statements, to see a lot of the records on which the statements are based. They also have a right to ask for an interview, usually with an educational psychologist who is, in most cases, responsible for advising the local Education Authority advisors on special education about particular children. erm not only that, but erm whereas in the past it's tended to be at the prerogative of the education people, as it were, the teachers and the heads and the educational psychologists, to make the initial moves in categorization or making a statement, now the parents have a right to ask for an assessment, so perhaps in your case to your question it would have been yes, you could have in fact have erm initiated the moves. Also, I should say that erm the District Health Authorities now also have the right to initiate this, and of course they are more likely to be in contact with children who are under erm school age, and so it's going to imply that the different services within the Local Authorities are going to have to work quite closely together on this one and what you should have, by the time a statement is prepared, is a very detailed profile of a particular child and one in which the parent has been consulted and various other people have been consulted. And I would say that in this respect, too, there is another point in the Act that each child now must be related in some way to what is called a responsible person. This is mainly because erm there are so many diverse services that might help in the erm general support and education of a special child that integration is necessary and that really one person should be keeping an eye on things, as it were. And this'll either be the head teacher of a school, or perhaps one of the governors of the school. So the changes appear to be, from what you are saying, first of all towards integrating children with special needs in the educational system, rather than by separating off perhaps just a very small number, a recognition perhaps that special needs extend on a broader base mhm than has hitherto been accepted, involving the parents more mhm in the sense of Yes. bringing them into the picture Yes. giving them rights of approach, as it were Yes. and sharing the problem. Perhaps we didn't really deal with the integrational question in any detail. I mean this has been a debating point in special education for a long time. It is whether children with special needs should attend a special school, and of course the argument from this point of view is that a special school can have staff specially trained to deal with that kind of child, the sort of resources that they need, the protective environment that's necessary for certain disabilities, and of course there are many special schools around — we've got one here in Brighton for the deaf, for instance— there are a number of examples that one can point to. Now the opposing argument to that is that if you create a special environment during the educational phase of a child's life, then what happens after that for his I mean how far have you then separated them off from the sort of life that they will have to lead thereafter. Now of course from the special school point of view they will say well many efforts are made to attempt to bring community life into the school and to have children erm or give them experiences in the community, so that you provide both a sheltered environment and also the opportunity to learn in the wider community, and this debate is something of a dilemma erm I don't know that any body can give a definite answer to it. The new act picks up the Warnock comments that really the majority of children can probably be erm accommodated in ordinary schools, but there will always be a need for special schools, and in fact they do mention some proportions. They say that if you take one in five children, that's twenty per cent of children, that probably eighteen per cent of children with special needs can be dealt with in ordinary schools and that there would still be need for special facilities for the remaining two per cent. But this what the act says on this particular point — it's interesting to see because it really does come down on the side of integration. It says that subject to certain conditions, these children shall be educated in an ordinary school, but erm the special conditions are the views of the parents — so once again, parents will be consulted about it. The second one is that there is proper provision erm available for erm the particular disabilities which the children have within the ordinary school, that the other children in the school also receive proper provision — you can see what's in the mind of the drafters of the bill there, that if you have some children who could potentially be disruptive, then they might in fact make it very difficult to educate children without these special handicaps. And finally , and this is something of a nebulous point, taking into account the most efficient use of resources. So what you really have from the government is a set of guidelines, and it will now be up to each Local Education Authority to interpret those guidelines and to make their own provision. The thing that worries some people is that as it's come at this particular time that some of the things that might have been done five years ago by Local Education Authorities to improve their whole education for children with special needs may now, either through other competing financial pressures, or through inertia or whatever, the whole spirit of Warnock could be lost, and I think it's a thing that, you know, one will have to keep a careful eye on. It's all very new, Eric, mhm and it's not clear how it's going to be implemented mhm and I'm sure that there must be listeners who are very interested in this, perhaps as parents, or perhaps being involved in education, is there any book or booklet they can get hold of to learn a bit more about the subject? Well, yes, there is a very cheap little booklet that the Department of Education and Science erm produced not long after the Warnock Report first came out. It's actually a summary of the Warnock Report and it's called ‘Meeting Special Educational Needs’. It costs eighty five p, and you can get it from any of the H M S O — Her Majesty's Stationery Office — or you could order it, I should think, from most bookshops, and that'll give you a pretty good overview of what Warnock is trying to do, and then, of course if anybody's interested enough in comparing that with the Act, you'll see the kind of things that were in the Warnock Report haven't actually come through in the act. Well, thank you very much, Eric. I'm afraid that's all that we've got time for today. Next week I shall be talking with Paul Yates about education and ethnic minorities. Until then, goodbye. The East Sussex region is interesting because it has a very high retired population and it also has quite a long of young people, particularly in the Brighton area, and a relatively small workforce, rather low in industry, certainly in the primary industries, erm service occupations are perhaps almost the mainstay of the local populace — now how would an area such as that rate in your chart as to needs? I think this illustrates in a very nice way what has recently been described as a new erm family circle. You see we used to think of the generations of man twenty five year intervals three, we really ought to be thinking of four. We've got children into young adulthood,depends ; we've got the young mature; we've got the old mature; we've got the elderly. Now one of the problems is that they no longer perhaps group together in self-supportive units. They're living independent parallel lives, as it were, and you need to take into account housing erm and I imagine that this is a if you take the elderly, for example , one major concern is the number of old people, particularly widowed women who live alone — increasingly can't cope, they go into care, private nursing homes if they've got the wherewithal, geriatric hospitals. Some of them are capable, if they live in sheltered accommodation or with a family, of looking after themselves. I think we need to get back to this kind of supportive system — that's one sort of problem. I think the second sort of problem, that you referred to, you have these quite sharp contrasts between the sort of Gatwick erm Crawley area spreading out, where you've got a young population erm and the coast, where you've got an ageing population — how does the county allocate its resources and how does it above all, having built schools in Gatwick in Crawley, then convert them to teenage centres and so on. It's flexibility, as well as actual provision of services, that seems to me to be a major problem. But do you feel it ought to be a free market erm situation, at least to the extent that anyone can move into any area they wish to provided they could find a place to live? erm I think the housing market is one thing. I think that the services that go with it are quite another. For example, many parts of the country, the South West, to some extent this area, are now finding that the benefits that they had to the rates system of people moving in after retirement after ten, fifteen, twenty years before disadvantages erm people need special hospital treatment, people need special types of accommodation and erm these are not the things that will be provided, as one of my speakers talking about hospital services said, by the private sector. It's the expensive side of medicine, you see, that the public will pick up the bill for, so you've got to try and have a balance between these things. And I think this is behind I made some adverse comment about the Prime Minister's comment about the burden of the old — to be fair, I think one of the problems she probably had in mind was the fact not of the immediate peak of elderly people, but the peak in the twenty/twenties where the full impact of the erm pension scheme that we've got will hit with a considerably older population — can we afford it? My view is that we've got forty years to think about it and we can surely think ahead. You are a geographer, and you're talking in planning terms. You're talking about all sorts of geography that I didn't study at school. Is that the way that modern geography is going? Yes, indeed, we like to think of geography which is a subject which is concerned with environmental problems in their widest sense, with the problems of society, how people live and work, have their leisure and recreation and we're concerned with our own country, we're concerned with distant parts of the world. Those are the traditional things that geographers are concerned with. I think that the skills and interest we develop in our young graduates these days are very much wider ranging and they're reflected into the great variety of jobs into which you go, and erm frequently in talking to young people about geography I'm at pains to say well we're really rather a useless subject, but we do give insights into a lot of sorts of problems and erm these lead in many directions. And do you think that the planners in this country take the geography of the country sufficiently seriously? Oh yes indeed. I think so for two reasons, because erm what was it that one planner said, that planning is the art of which geography is the science. That's probably overstating it, but certainly in its regional and local aspects we do deal with many environmental problems the geographers are familiar with. We deal with allocation erm, spatial allocation of resources, which geographers are interested in, and of course we have erm particularly in the nineteen sixties and seventies, when planners were being very actively recruited, we erm did see a great many geographers go into planning, both at national level and, indeed, also in local offices, so you'll find many geographers there. And do you think that geographers can make a unique contribution to the planning? I don't like to speak of uniqueness and if you think of what they do erm many of them will be concerned in the research side. erm planning is a team exercise, they have their own input to make. Development planning in the third world is a team exercise. Nobody has the monopoly of wisdom and it's important, it seems to me, that you have economists keeping an eye on the economics of the situation, sociologists looking after the cultural and individual choice sides, psychologists, people's appraisal of their environment, geographers saying this sort of development is more appropriate there because of environmental conditions than there, and so on. Hello. Last week we were talking about food and fuel in third world countries. To a great extent shortages are caused by population expansion and in the nineteen sixties the example everyone quoted was China. China was expanding at such a rate that some experts were predicting that by the year two thousand the world would be dominated by Chinese people, both numerically and in their demand for resources. Professor Dick Laughton is a geographer from Liverpool, who's made a special study of the relationship between people and planning. He had this to say about China today. If we take a dramatic example, erm that of China, here is a country which has managed to develop along a particular line. Quite restrictive, but having gone through a phase of ambivalence about what population they could accommodate, one view was that there was no real problem, another view in the fifties it should be cut back. Since Mao they've definitely taken the view that they should stabilize their population numbers as soon as possible, and they now have the most restrictive policies in relation to families, deferral of marriage, penalties for those couples that in the towns have more than one child erm and this is leading to a dramatic reduction in crude birthrate. But of course the children that were born yesterday, fifteen years ago, are already there as the parents for tomorrow, so their population will continue to grow in very large numbers, but will begin to tail off. And in a way, what they then have to be prepared for is people who are living into adult life because health for children is better — and this is true of many parts of the world, not only Latin America, but also Africa — and you're going to have to find more jobs. On a global scale the estimate is that between now and the end of the century — this is international labour organization — one thousand eight hundred million new jobs, as against a present world population of four and a half million. This is tremendous. And that is a very large increase in the number of jobs. A very large increase, and of course some of them are living longer — instead of three or four per cent over what we call retirement age there will be perhaps six, as now in China, there may be eight, into the next century ten. It will age. So they have some of the same kind of problems that we have, but in a rather different form. What I'm trying to say is that it's providing for people already here that I think should be a major item of population policy, and doing it not in a massive world sense, or even a country, but in particular areas as well. So we ought to concentrate on what's happening in Britain, and to some extent ignore what's going on in the rest of the world? I wouldn't say that. I think that erm we have a great role to play in international agencies, in people going out to the developing world to teach through education, to perhaps change attitudes in rural development where, as we know, greater prosperity tends to influence people to have fewer children, and since many of the reasons for having large families is to ensure survival, so that the agricultural plot is taken over, the family continues to work, the active group can field the older group, there is less need for that now. quick to see this point. A much greater chance of survival, largely due to better medical care? Indeed yes, the medical revolution. And therefore the problems change from survival to that of occupation activity and so on? Yes. I wouldn't underestimate the problems of famine, but this is largely a question of mild distribution, and I think we're learning to cope with it better than fifty years ago. Before we start talking about Britain in some detail, erm just to conclude talking about the world as a whole, do estimates suggest that the world population may stabilize at a particular level at some point in the future? This is practically impossible to predict. In the past, the main method of predicting population has been to extend the present curve. You take birthrate, you take death rate, you take the structure of the population, you try to estimate how many parents there will be tomorrow and push them forward. Now there is a much greater tendency to say if we were able to reduce family size to replacement level, zero population growth, for the developing world about two and a half children per family, by the year two thousand what would the situation look like? Two thousand and twenty five, two thousand and fifty, where would things begin to stabilize? And the main projections that have been work out by erm population council, United Nations and people like this, suggest a series of alternatives, which I referred to earlier. This is the range of possibilities. Let's have a look at erm the United Kingdom how. What's happening to the population in this country? Well, it's been a story of ups and downs. erm if you go back to the nineteen thirties, for example, depression, love on the dole, deferral of marriage, potential husbands killed in the first World War, low birthrate, small families, below the level that would replace the population in future, and many of the Wartime and late War reports erm the Royal Commission on population, which reported in forty nine, suggested that population may stagnate, round about forty million plus, even decline to about thirty million. But of course all that has changed for three reasons. erm first of all we have had a post-War baby boom, a small one, and then a big one in the late fifties to the late seventies, peaking in nineteen sixty four, when in nineteen sixty four — I forget the figure — about nine hundred and sixty thousand babies were born in Great Britain. The second reason is immigration, where we gained on balance about half a million people and they of course were mostly young, they had their families here, so that they gave the impression of having very high birthrates. We've subsequently discovered that this is by no means necessarily true. West Indian families, for example, now in the seventies and early eighties are probably smaller than the equivalent British families — Indian and Pakistani a bit bigger. So their numbers will continue to grow as a new element in the population. Now of course we have on balance a loss of migration again. The third reason is people are living longer, so we'll have more older people. But of course since that boom in the sixties we've had the seventies' economic depression, uncertainty about the future, the problem of the bomb, changed family attitudes, better contraception erm a great drop, and in fact a population a birth fall rather, of something like a third between nineteen sixty four and nineteen sixty seven. A dramatic fall in numbers. What's the population in Britain at the moment? In the United Kingdom about fifty six million, in Britain fifty four and a half. And how do you expect this to change by the end of the century? To grow slowly. most estimates, but it depends on your point of departure. But most of the population forecasts from the Office of Population Censuses and Surveys suggests probably going to about fifty eight million by the early twenty-first century or the turn of the century, but the structure will be different. There will be fewer young people, many more of working age. In the short term, up to nineteen eighty six, more of retirement age. In the medium term, more over seventy fives, the elderly — or shall we call them old, no the elderly — erm and when the people of course were born in or around nineteen sixty four are sixty in the twenty twenties and twenty thirties, a lot of older people again. And what about the distribution of people within England, for example? Well this of course erm depends on two factors. It depends on the local growth rate, which is partly a function of family size, but one of the great features has been that the high fertility areas, with the exception perhaps of Northern Ireland, which is a rather special case, these tended to have become closer together. The birthrates of Liverpool, with its big Catholic tradition, are much closer to those of the South East than they were twenty years ago. erm the second factor, of course, is migration, and we know that there are lot of people still moving away from areas of relative decline, they're moving into the countryside, parts of Wales, Scotland. They're retiring to various parts of the country, down here onto the Sussex coast and on the whole coast into the South West — to the pleasant places if they can afford to do it, and they're leaving the inner city and leaving behind there a lot of young families, often single parent families and older people, and of course the kind of provision you have to make, the Social Services, the needs of these communities differ quite widely. And it's my view, you see, that this ought to be more central to our planning and thinking about these things in allocating erm what are admittedly scarce resources. So you think that resources ought to be allocated on the basis of need of particularly populations, and an analysis of the spread of within the age groups, rather than on just on a sort of so much per head uniform way. I would like to see national attitudes in relation to the proper and careful use of public resources brought more closely in relationship to local need. I think the classic example of this is the rate and the rate support system and all the sort of public services — care of the elderly, schools for the young — would come from this. It's a bit hard, it seems to me, where you have areas with a favourable population structure erm who are not willing to back up those with an unfavourable, with a lot of elderly people who perhaps need greater aid. The problem is, of course, that we the irony is that we are now in a period where we have a much bigger potential workforce who we are not employing as we might. You say as we might, what is the opportunities of employing the workforce? Well we merge here on difficult ground, and I'm not erm competent. The points I'm making, I should add, are not particularly political points, erm I get a little worried when I hear the sharp division between productive and unproductive occupations. I've long been unproductive. I'm an academic, but I take the view that it's probably better to let the peak birthrate come into universities and higher education in nineteen eighty two and nineteen eighty three, rather than to cut back on universities. If they don't get in, they may find work, they may not. There is probably as big, almost a call on the goal as they are in higher education. This is just one example. erm a second example — let me give an illustration from Liverpool. We've had a lot of inner area money. We've cleaned up a lot of parts of our city. We've laid out some quite attractive open spaces. That comes from outside funding from central government. The inner cities have a problem — we say it's a good thing. If the local authority wants to pay one man to keep one of those areas clean and tidy, it's a sin. It's extravagant Local Authority expenditure. Now I'm putting it very simplistically and very starkly, but it does seem to me that we need to get a better balance about how we look at these things and to realize that if we've got an efficient industry we will have a declining industrial workforce, what are the rest going to do? They're going to work in leisure industries, in caring services, in education, all those things that go with what we think as a good life, and indeed, coming back to the third world, that's the very kind of thing that we need in African villages and India — agriculturalists, erm teachers, health workers and so on. How do you regulate population in a democratic society? To a certain extent there's an attempt in East Sussex to regulate, in terms of their county plan, people by linking it to housing, on the basis that if you don't build the houses people can't migrate into area. Well you can, of course, regulate population if you live in a totally command economy. If you plan everything, and you provide a bit of this and bit of that, and you help the people to go with it. That, I think, is not, and would never be, acceptable in this country. So that erm you then have the problem of whether you respond to pressure on land for housing erm through the private sector. You can do it to some extent through the public sector, but one of the worrying things I find about the present situation with this growth of generations, the clamp down on building — less than a hundred thousand houses, I think, completed in the U K last year — my estimate is that we should be building about two hundred and fifty thousand. What do you do, for example, with the situation in Hove, where the houses are built for one kind of clientele — big houses, servants — divide them up into flats? Do they go to the people that need them, or the people that can afford to pay Hove prices that come down from London? So you've got these problems of balance, and it may be that in these situations Local Authorities have got to take a higher role in providing for their own people, as it were. They are very complex problems and I don't pretend I've got the answers. erm I think we ought to be aware of the implications of what is happening to our population locally, regionally, nationally, globally. And lastly, are you an optimist or a pessimist so far as the future's concerned? I think I've always been an optimist. Thank you very much Professor Dick Laughton. Next week, Peter Simpson will be talking about education and chemistry _ what is happening in schools and universities today. Professor Teething-Smith is the Director of the Office of Health Economics at London. I suppose, Professor Smith, that medicine's been around just about as long as people have been around? Yes, that's right. It's only recently that they've been doing more good than harm and it's therefore ironic that people have tended to give so much publicity in the last twenty or thirty years to the things that have gone wrong, to the disasters which sometimes do happen with medicines, because really medicines now, as compared with thirty or forty years ago, are doing a tremendous amount of good. What about the safeguards concerning medicine? What about people's worries that medicine may actually do them harm? Well looking at it carefully, as I have done, it's surprising that if you take the whole of the last forty years and look across the world there are really only about eight major what you can call disasters — I call the calamities, because they are not really disasters — that have occurred with medicines. And these are things like thalidomide, that of course everybody knows about, and of course, tragic and terrible as it was, the fact is that it affected just four hundred and fifty children. Even that is a higher number than with most of the other so-called disasters. There was one in America, for example, where a hundred people died because a sulphalidomide preparation was wrongly formulated, erm and the biggest disaster that has happened in this country was in fact with asthma aerosols, where they were misused. They weren't inherently toxic or dangerous, but they were misused, and instead of calling for an ambulance people would have another squirt of the inhaler down their throat and the result was that they unfortunately died. There was a peak of deaths, which you can see quite clearly, which occurred during this period. And that misuse of the aerosol sprays is probably responsible for about three thousand five hundred deaths, but I think you've got to put that into perspective, first of all against the six thousand people who are killed on the roads every year in Britain, and you've also got to set it against our estimate that there are more than a quarter of a million people alive today who would have died in childhood if it hadn't been specifically for the advantage of being able to take medicines, anti-biotics generally in their childhood to keep them alive. They would be dead today and they are walking around. So if we can look at the relatively small numbers, albeit, I mean, tragic numbers of people who have been harmed or died, we do have to set it into perspective against risks in other walks of life and against the enormous benefits that medicines have done. You mentioned one or two of the calamities; in fact, you mentioned that there are probably eight calamities in recent fairly recent time. Are any of these calamities which need not have occurred, or where they all acts which were very unfortunate but occurred with basically goodwill all round as it were? Well the interesting thing which is happening is that we're getting better at preventing these things happening. I couldn't swear that a thalidomide sort of accident will never happen again, but the chance of it happening are much less. Now this is really because of better science, and again a lot of people say well we've got government regulations, which will make medicines much safer. Now government regulations help — they stop cheap, bad medicines being imported from abroad — but really, as far as the improvement of safety is concerned, it's more with the pharmaceutical manufacturers doing more thorough tests on the medicines, taking more care. It now takes about twelve years from the development of a new chemical to the marketing of it as a medicine, so that twelve years is used in testing it — first of all on animals and then on human volunteers and finally on patients. So there's this enormously long testing period now takes place and that cuts down the risk of their being disasters or catastrophes. In this controlled clinical trial, presumably it is important to test drugs on patients themselves and presumably the important feature, as you mentioned, is that they are volunteers, rather than people who are buying it, the medicines, in good faith with the expectation they've already been tested? That's right. Nowadays if you're testing a medicine you have to tell the patient. The doctor has to be perfectly frank with the patient and say this is a new medicine — I'm trying it — erm I think it will do you good, but we can't be sure until we've tested it. So nobody gets used as guinea pig without knowing it, that certainly is true. But the other thing, which is even more important, is the need to follow up medicines after they have been marketed, because generally speaking the disasters which have occurred erm have occurred once the medicine has been in use and they are terribly rare things. We're talking about a risk of, for example, one in ten thousand people. Now you can't possibly test a medicine on ten thousand people before you start to sell it, so that sort of risk, as rare a risk as that, will only be picked up when the medicine has actually been in use and on the market and been properly prescribed for some years, and what we are doing now, and what is particularly interesting, is to start to use computers to pick up these adverse reactions so that we know much more quickly in future if a medicine is doing any harm and we can either stop prescribing it for the people who are going to suffer from it, and that's the most likely thing, or else take it off the market altogether if it's if we don't if we can't pick out the people who might be at risk. I suppose it is the long term effects which need this particularly study. I'm thinking, for example, it's not a medicine as such, but I'm thinking of the birth control pill, which presumably has a possible effect in its particular form over a period perhaps twenty years, rather than five years, on a person. That's right. And the birth control pill is an interesting example because it brings out the controversy and misunderstanding which there can be, because for many many years there was a great deal of talk about the risks from the birth control pill. Now two things have happened — one is that better, safer pills have been introduced, but secondly a lot of the scares which there were of five or ten years ago, have been shown to be quite unjustified, so we now know that using the more modern of the oral contraceptives erm there's really very little risk indeed. So this is an example of both scaremongering having been laid to rest and also modern scientific technology having produced safer medicines. You mentioned that there is follow up testing taking place. What form does this take? This is simply watching the patient who has been given the medicines. Now at the moment every doctor has in his desk a supply of what I call yellow cards, obviously because they're yellow, which he's asked to fill in if he thinks that a medicine which he has prescribed may have caused some nasty effect, for example to give the patient headaches, or to make them giddy, or to make them sick, or perhaps even something more serious than that. If the doctor suspects that the medicine has caused an affect like that, he's asked to fill in a card and to send it in. Now one of the problems is that doctors are rather reluctant to do that because it's very difficult for them to be sure that a particular headache or a particular skin rash has been caused by one of the medicines which the patient was taking, so the doctors are not very good at filling in the yellow cards and these are not a very good way of reporting adverse reactions, and to get over that we are starting now to use computers. We're giving two and a half thousand doctors computers on their desk, where they can tap in to the computer anything which happens to the patient which they suspect might be related to the medicine and also put in to the computer, of course, the medicines which the patient is taking, so that these records, covering about five million patients altogether, will be all centrally brought together in order to give very early warning of any harm which medicines are doing, so that's a very important development. And you in the Office of Health Economics handle this information? No, no, erm this is being done at the University of Surrey. We're only watching this with interest, we're not directly involved ourselves. Thinking a little bit more about medicines, there are still some very old fashioned medicines around the place. I think I can still go to the chemist and buy a bottle of Kaolin and Morphia. Now is that really a very wise thing to do? Is it something hanging over from the past? Well there are two schools of thought. One is, of course, that an old and tried medicine which has been on use for perhaps a hundred/a hundred and fifty/two hundred years is really a very safe medicine and you won't come to much harm by buying it and taking it. erm the other view, of course, is that medicine should have become much more scientific and that these almost old wives remedies should have been disgraced and discontinued. I think that both points of view have some truth in them. I think there is a case for old medicines, but I think that doctors are sometimes too conservative and the public are sometimes too conservative getting advice from their mother-in-law or from granny erm and going and buying a granny's remedy, whereas in fact there's something modern available which would be much more effective and perhaps much safer. Do you that think we use to much medicine too often these days? Well I think again there's two answers to it. I mean sometimes medicines are certainly prescribed and bought when they aren't needed. On the other hand, there's — setting off against that — there's also evidence that doctors are sometimes too reluctant to use medicines, often because they aren't familiar with them. You need an awful lot of persuading to get doctors to start to use a new medicine and a classic example was of the treatment of depression, where the pharmaceutical manufacturers started to produce tablets which were very effective in stopping depression, not just feeling a bit blue but actual serious clinical depression where the person's sat in the corner and stared at the wall and did nothing — I mean really serious depression — doctors took a long time to realize that there was an effective treatment for that and to start to prescribe it, and in fact actually doctors in Britain are rather good in that we prescribe many more effective treatments for depression, we diagnose it more often, and this we believe in our office that this is one of the reasons why the suicide rate has gone down in Britain quite dramatically in the last few years, because depression, which is obviously one of the main causes of suicide, is being effectively treated. But, as I say, doctors are slow to start using that so that, whereas sometimes they are overenthusiastic and use too many medicines, at other times they are too slow and too reluctant to start to use new innovations. It seems to me that there ought to be to edges to a campaign to make medicines safer. One comes from perhaps the pharmaceutical and the medical profession side, and it seems to me the other side is really the public side. So many of us keep so many medicines on our shelves for donkeys years in the hope that we might find a pill that will suit us at some time. Surely this in itself must be dangerous? Yes, I think that everybody recognizes that you should use the medicine that the doctor prescribes in the way he prescribes it and when you've finished the treatment you should put it down the lavatory or get rid of it in some other safe way, but not keep it so that you can try it yourself again a bit later on and perhaps get confused and when you've got boils on your neck take something which was meant for ingrowing toe nails or something like that. You shouldn't keep old remnants of medicines in the medicine cupboard. And finally, Professor Smith, are you happy with the controls which exist these days about medicines and their use and prescriptions? Well they're getting stricter all the time and the big danger is, of course, that the restrictions are too strict. You stop the discovery of new medicines and treatments for heart disease, for cancer, for things like multiple sclerosis and Parkinson's Diseases — the diseases for which we don't yet have treatments — that you slow down progress too much if you get too many restrictions. I think the balance is pretty good at the moment, but restrictions are getting tighter all the time. Professor Smith, thank you very much. Was genuine he added at this time that er the further information was that the occupants of the flat at were frightened of . H h he had, what did he say? He thought they were frightened or the telephonist or or what? Er my Lord, the added bit of information that was, that erm was then passed to me was that when the man rang the police station the information that he gave to the telephonist included the fact that the occupants of the flat were frightened . Right right. said he went to the police station but it follows that you were were at home which . I was at home er up until that point. Were you on duty at home or off duty at home? I was off duty, but on call. On making those further enquiries you've just told us about at the police station. Did you er, were you satisfied the operation should continue as discussed with Assistant Chief Officer . I also met the police station er Sergeant and and after discussing further the matters with him erm then I was happy an armed operation was er was necessary. Superintendent if any other information had come to light over the next few hours would you have reconsidered the matter? Depending on the information, yes erm. So without really putting it more bluntly er, was there always the option to call this off? There was always the option to call this off er to the very last moment when erm I gave the order for the officers to go in. Was there at some time then, a briefing for the officers who were going to go into the flat? Yes,it was five fifteen A M of the following morning, at . Who conducted the briefing? Sergeant mainly er gave the briefing and after going through the formality of giving er the officers the deb the information that had been received er our intention erm a method by which we going to follow this through erm and other information such as radio call signs. erm I then asked er additional questions to see what the up to the minute information was at that time. at that meeting were you satisfied the operation should continue? Yes I I was erm the additional information that was available to me at this time, er Sergeant the er having left me the previous night er had actually, had gone to the premises erm, gone to the flats erm and had er put himself in the area of the flat and was able to tell me that he had heard voices, two male voices coming from within the flat. Did you yourself take part in the operation to go in with the guns? In other words did you the flat? Er, no er that only armed officers actually erm would go into the flat. So you were not. . What was your role during the search? I was the commander and er I was erm in a control vehicle, a police vehicle, er was parked nearby to the flat. And what is that vehicle called, is it only. Well it is the, it's the control vehicle er which contains myself and my tactical advisor er Sergeant . Yes. And we were in radio contact with the firearms team. The same consideration given Superintendent to the question of medical facilities. Yes we were actually erm, the position of the control vehicle was erm in front of an ambulance that we had asked to to be there and the crew were briefed as to what we were doing and and what injuries possibly could arise. Did you for the operation? I did so, yes. Do you remember the approximate time of that. I think it was about six A M. And did you in due course, go to the flat? Yes I did. When did you go to the flat? Er it was a short time after, having given the order for the officers to enter the flat, erm maybe three or four minutes after that erm, having received the information that the flat was secure, it was safe to enter er I then went up to the flat. Did Sergeant accompany you to the flat? No he did not. Sergeant? yes. On arriving at the flat did you speak to Mr ? Yes er it would be more accurate to say he spoke to me. He he was very excitable, excitable and he was angry erm he was shouting at me er that he'd been spreadeagled naked er on the floor, guns had been pointed at him and his front door had been smashed down and his er his family, his wife and children had been frightened. Pausing there Superintendent. When you first saw Mr was he wearing anything upon the lower part of his body? He had his trousers on. Was he still handcuffed or were the handcuffs off? He was not handcuffed. Did you say anything to him? Yes I did er I sh I won't say the exact words but they were words to the effect that er that I was sorry, that I understood and appreciated that er erm his family would have been terrified by the experience. Erm that we had no alternative to do what we did er that C I D officers would speak to him and I believe that he would better understand er wh why we have done what we did er and I assured him that the damage to his door will would be repaired. Did you speak to er Mrs at all? I did not, no. how long had you been in the police force? Er thirty two years. So could you . When you rang what did you know about the occupiers of the flat. That is how many there were and who they were? I knew that er Mr er lived there and probably his wife, er maybe nothing more. Sorry, but maybe nothing more. Did you know any more or didn't you know any more? Well I I've answered that way sir, cos I can't be sure. Well let me put it plainly, did you or did you not know that there were two children or three children indeed in that flat? I at no time, erm until after the incident, knew that. Did you make any enquiries and if so what enquiries, to try to find out who the occupiers ? Only from a record that would have been available at the police station or from officers knowledge. Well what did those enquiries reveal? That Mr er did live at the flat erm with his wife, there may have been children but we didn't know for certain and that the previous night two male persons appeared to have been there. So when Assistant Chief Constable told the jury yesterday I would have discussed the question of who were the occupiers before giving my authority that was, do you remember that . That was presumably then that we think Lawrence was there, it's flat, we think his wife's there. There may be children. That . If I think that yes. Now this sort of er I don't want to use the word raid. This sort of operation needs to be authorised and doesn't it? Not just the arming of the officers, that needs one authorisation but on forcible entry needs another authorisation doesn't it? Erm no sir. So you made the decision that there'd be a forcible entry to this flat, is that right? Yes sir. At six in the morning. Yes sir. But you say that that decision and the reasons for it were never er, and the authority for it, the reasons for it, were never reduced to . Er, the only authority that was given was the authority to arm the officers by Mr which he would have put in to writing, er he was aware as to the method of entry to the of the flat but that no authority, no written authority was given for that. What my solicitors finding from a letter let me tell you why I ask. There was a police complaints authority investigation into all of this. That is correct. The letter which has just been found refers to something like called a police operational order authorising the raid, saying that had disappeared by the time the police complaints authority started looking for it. Have you any idea what that refers to? Yes I have er it would refer to the operational order. Erm the, it refers to an operational order er, an operational order is not a document that actually authorises police officers to do something. It it sets out erm what the information is, er what the intention is, the method that we would follow er any communications, any administration. It's a, it's a briefing document so that er all those involved are, that all those that are involved on the operation erm, are as well informed as is possible. Erm, I'm at a lost on this. You're being asked erm you told us you rang up the Assistant Chief Constable who gave you the authority to carry out the armed operation. Yes my Lord. Now at that stage you were doing it on the telephone were you? That's correct my Lord. So you didn't have a letter there and then and asked something about was it put into writing. No no no er Well that, sorry I I I've lost it, so let's . A Mr yesterday, he was just authorising the use of firearms and he said that was put into writing and we've got that form but that only authorises the issue of firearms er the practicality, the authorising and the carrying out of the raid isn't covered by that document. It's covered by the document this officer's . And when does the authority to issue the firearms, when's that signed? Er it was er well it said,I think . Lord would it help if,the issue of firearms authorisation which was signed by Assistant Chief Constable I really wanted to know when it was done. The verbal authoris authorisation was given at seven fifty P M on the fourth of December and there was a subsequent tactical, the tactical advisor Sergeant spoke to the Assistant Chief Constable at eight fifteen. Both those times are recorded, I've got copies for the jury. But I'm I I I'm not sure what relevance it is, I mean is this some procedure that it's got to be reduced into writing? My Lord if I can help. I think what what point is being made is er albeit from assistance from should have been referred is that an operation will always have been drawn up. It's a very simple matter and it it, there's no so even if the jury are about to hear it from the witness. Which like the breaching order in effect. It just sets out the information with any further suggestions. Sergeant will give evidence as to why he supported it afterwards. there's no legal . No right then, the we know this er isn't an issue that the Assistant Chief Constable said you can go ahead with this operation. Well I I I'm not sure what what document is now being referred to. Some document that erm was produced and lost at some point or. My Lord, I think the case is being made if I may say so sir, to give the jury the impression that the police just document. The police destroyed the document in question, they'll tell you why they have destroyed it . There was here some enquiry and the that enquiry as a matter of public policy I understand the documents aren't to be available, even if they assist the police, or if they assist the other side. But my Lord. It's simply something that we're all bound by. My Lord yes, Yes well then I'm not sure,wh what is this document Mr ? As er the officer was saying it's a briefing document prepared before the raid, therefore of course it's not covered by public interest immunity. The reason I'm in it is that document, as the officer says, sets out the information given as the offer as the officer put it. That is the information on which the police were acting when they decided it was reasonable to take this action. Right. I just wanted to know what that information was, that's all. But if the document doesn't exist, it doesn't exist unless you can remember what the information was on that document but I would imagine . Only that it would have contained the information er as I've detailed already. Now would you, I think it must be right that you were at the at five fifteen in the morning conducted by Sergeant . Yes sir. Broadly were the policemen being told they were dealing with a hostage situation, or a harbouring situation? I'm not actually sure that either er was mentioned erm, what they would have been told er was that there was an escaped prisoner there er who was armed and our intention was to arrest him. Now I do not actually recall er us going into detail about the harbouring er and I certainly don't recall erm that we were talking about a hostage situation. Well it's just that it's the Chief Constable's case that when er er sorry when was got from his bed he was told that he was being arrested for harbouring and escapee Lawrence . Have you any idea which ever officer said that formed the impression that it was a harbouring situation? No er that is a matter for the officer er to answer. The only other thing is this. The armed police went into the flat and you and Sergeant stayed in the control vehicle. Yes sir. Some time subsequently you yourself went to the flat. Yes sir. Did any other police officers go into the flat in, to your knowledge, go into the flat in that interval. I mean after the armed police officers but before you? It's quick like quite likely that C I D officers almost certainly, C I D officers would have gone before me. So when Mr said that the firearms office majority of language, when the firearms officer said wait for the C I D and then some other policemen arrived and then you, that may well be right because from what you say it may well be that the C I D did get to the flat after the officers but before ? That's right. Great. My Lord I have no real examination to do, does your Lordship have any questions? Er and where would the se . You were in a car, the control car. Yes my Lord. How far away from the flat? Initially probably about er three hundred yards er in a in a side junction erm, but as, once the ins once the operation had commenced erm we moved up onto the car park actually on, below the flats. And erm, where were the C I D officers whilst the armed officers went in? I'm not actually sure erm. Well would they be close at hand? They would have been close at hand my Lord erm I just don't know, it may be that, I think they were probably in a vehicle also close at hand ready to . Yes. Yes, thank you erm Mr . My Lord I call er Sergeant . Take the book in your hand and repeat after . I swear by Almighty God. I swear by Almighty God. That the evidence I shall give. That the evidence I shall give. Shall be the truth. Shall be the truth. The whole truth. The whole truth. And nothing but the truth. And nothing but the truth. Thank you. Sergeant tell where you currently live. I live in er a province of in Spain my Lord. And er retired from the police force now? I have yes. I thought it was exclusively terrible criminals that live in that part of the world. Perhaps I've been watching too much television yes. Wh when did you retire Sergeant ? I retired in er September last year, nineteen ninety two. And in December of nineteen eighty eight, er what was your rank and where were you positioned? I was a Sergeant at er police headquarters and my duties amongst er others was as a senior tactical advisor for the police force on firearms matters. My Lord, first of all can I just ask whether you could tell the jury something about the training of firearms officers? Yes. Initially er all firearms officers by the nature of the duties, are volunteers. They receive no extra remuneration whatsoever for their duties although at some times of course it can be quite dangerous. Er, applications are accepted from all officers who have completed a two year period of probation and no applications are considered whilst an officer is in his probation. First and foremost erm there is an assessment of those officers by their immediate supervisors and er a then ensues whereby er suitable officers are s selected to come for a two day assessment at er police headquarters. Just pausing there , I think it will become relevant. What is the purpose of that assessment by the police? The assessment by the police is to eliminate erm any officer that er has psychopathic tendencies or er on the other side of the coin, to eliminate those officers that erm might be so timid that they wouldn't be able to perform the duties should it be necessary for them to fire a weapon. You eliminate those who are too timid or those you think are too aggressive. Precisely my Lord. So Mr it would perhaps be right to think then that you're looking for cover for the firearms unit? Certainly not no, certainly not. And after they've that psychological assessment. Is there any other assessment of their capabilities? Yes er a physical assessment er takes place, they're given er a medical, eyesight, hearing tests and going on from that er er a one day assessment in the actual use of firearms takes place before they are actually selected to er attend a preliminary course of two weeks duration. And what does the preliminary two week course involve? It involves all aspects of erm the law in relation to firearms, their issue, their use er great emphasis placed on er section three of the criminal law act in respect of the use of reasonable force. Their actual ability to fire a weapon, a hand gun in this case. Their ability to react to given situations using slide and a film projector images and er a written examination at the er end of it, plus a full classification shoot whereby they have to reach a certain standard erm of ability in order to er pass the two week course. Mr I assume it's are they free to go out and use firearms? No erm they are then authorised and issued with an authorisation card following the successful completion of the course to carry a firearm on police duties if required er, the authorisation is issued by either the Chief Constable or er his deputy and that would enable the officer if required to go an armoury at one of the police stations and produce his card and be issued with a weapon if necessary. That card er contains information er regarding er the law and er instructions to the officer in addition each officer receives er a set amount of training per month. At the time of this incident the incident was carried out by a group of officers who were called the operational support unit. Those officers were especially selected from erm the firearms officers we had available at that time and they were responsible for all firearms operations within the county. They've trained in addition to the once a month or even twice a month, they've trained whenever their duties allowed. Mr in December nineteen eighty eight, how long had you been a firearms officer, or tactical advisor? I an authorised officer in nineteen sixty eight, so it'd have been twenty years and er from there I became er an instructor in nineteen eighty four er having successfully completed a number of national run courses on firearms, firearms tactics at the national school of firearms er which are in the metropolitan district and er Lancashire and West Yorkshire. And just finally on the Mr are you able to put an approximate number, er figure to the number of such operations you've been involved in? Hundreds. Could you tell us what your role was in the operation to go into ? Yes er my role was the tactical advisor on this operation and in doing that . What were the name what does tactical advisor mean? It meant because of my experience and my knowledge I was erm able to advise the Superintendent in charge, Mr , on the various options that were available to him and also erm advise him whether he was considering other options, whether they would be safe or otherwise. Do you remember at what time you were contacted approximately? I think about eight o'clock in the evening at home. Did you then go to ? Yes I did. And did you go to the planning question at all before the operation? Yes I did. And when was that? I recollect about half past ten that evening on the fourth. And er what was in the flat? It wasn't my intention originally to go to the flat, it was my intention to reconnoitre the area in order that I could supply the officers who were going to do the actual operation with up to date information as to erm the methods of getting in to the block of flats because they had a coded key door erm and to acquaint myself of the actual physical erm presence of lifts, stairways and that sort of thing. As it was er quite late on a Sunday evening I did in fact take the opportunity to listen at the door of the flat in question. And what did you hear anything? Yes, I heard two men speaking and the possibility of either another man or a woman also in the premises. And as a result of that reconnoitre, where did you then go? I then returned back to the er police station where I commenced to write the operational order in respect of the incident. And is the operational order er the document that is being referred to be the plaintiff's council. Yes it is. And what would you put in that document? The document is basically a briefing document in order that every piece of information erm that is available to the police is then able to be passed on to the officers who are actually going to do the job. So they they are fully aware of the implications and er fully aware of exactly what is required of them. Sergeant before I take you on to deal with the briefing itself, I just want to go back and ask you one thing. The jury twenty years in time and with the information you had from Superintendent , did you consider that instead of mounting a an operation like that, you should simply surround the flat or be with . Did you consider that? Yes it was considered. Er in fact it was put to me as as an option by Superintendent that this could be, if this could be done er at the time er if I recall one of the reasons erm that we weren't able to do it in such a way was that there are numerous exits to the block of flats and each exit would have had to be covered by at least two armed officers we only only had in the region of twenty five officers available to us at that time in the police who were authorised to be armed and to maintain such a surveillance, erm not only would be very costly in the terms of the number of officers. There would have to be changes of shifts, er and the likelihood that the operation to erm, the surveillance operation would be compromised as a result. How long do firearms officers spend on such a surveillance shift? The minimum amount of time that is necessary er in an operation such as this when the operation is finished the officers are then allowed to go home, that's the end of their shift because erm there's a great deal of adrenalin flows on an operation like this. On a surveillance operation we are looking at, I wouldn't like to see an officer who is armed, more than six hours in that position. His ability to A function as a surveillance office and B to function as a armed officer after being maybe in the er in a vehicle for that length of time er is both dangerous to the public and dangerous to him. Yes there are four exits and entrances to this block of flats with two officers on each entrance, that's eight officers to start with. Presumably you have a command post? Yes. So that's within six hours you would have worked your way through more than half of your compliment of armed officers? Correct. That's ignoring sickness, holiday and everything else? Yes. And do we understand from your reference, that it's your policy that armed officers should do that job and then get home, get out of the way and relax a bit? Yes, that is correct erm in my experience er both being erm on armed incidents er the adrenalin flow is tremendous, the officers are erm concentrating one hundred and fifty percent on their task in hand and it is very tiring work. It's a constant threat of danger and after debrief which takes place in the police station, erm relaxation is necessary erm, we have the availability of er stress counselling as well and a period of about two hours normally elapses before the officers is er reasonably able to er function as a normal police officer again and because of this er it has been decided that the officer's duties for that day er will be terminated. They're not like junior house doctors who do a ninety two hour week just work until they drop? They often do ninety two hours a week but erm wouldn't do ninety two hours a week on an operation, certainly not. Well let's move on now to try to the briefing. Did you conduct the briefing? Yes, in conjunction with Superintendent . And when did you conduct it? Er the briefing was held at er the briefing room at at five fifteen A M on the . And who selected the officers for the operation? The officers for the operation were selected by their commander erm the inspector in charge of the operational support unit. I would ask him on authorisation from er the Assistant Chief Constable, I would ask him for a number of officers. And how many did you ask for in this case? Six armed officers, but I would also require other members of the operational support unit to support those officers in a non-armed role. Yes and at the briefing, just tell us first of all what you said about the objective of the operation. The objective of the operation was to arrest Mr with the proviso that it was to be done with the safety of the public to be paramount and that the safety of the police officers and Mr was also to be considered. But the main objective was to search the house to see if Mr was there. On on a briefing for an operation do you have to give further recommendation to advise on instructions about the use of guns or is that part and parcel of training? No er at er briefing, officers are again reminded of their responsibilities within the law, as to reasonable force and even when the officer issuing firearms, which is not myself, er an officer of inspector rank issues the firearms, er arms to the individual officers, they are again reminded of their responsibilities within the criminal law. Were the officers to be equipped with radios? Yes. And would the radios be used once they were in the flat? That would be a decision of the officer in charge of the actual operation erm that was actually going into the flat but it was normal practice that radios would be switched off. And who was, who was the officer who would lead them into the flat? The officer erm lead them into the flat was Sergeant . Sergeant? . Have you ever worked with Sergeant before ? Yes I have. Do you have confidence in him to conduct this operation? Yes I did. What was the decision as to how you would physically enter the flat? The police force at that time were in possession of what is known as an automatic door opener. This piece of er equipment was er purchased some short time before in order that er we could enter, heavily secured doors er with a minimum amount of noise in order to er gain entry to premises where there was a possible armed incident taking place, or a possible hostage situation. Do we understand from that that you wish to gain entry without alerting the occupants? That is the intention yes. And does that have a bearing on the time that you conduct such operations? It is a medical fact that the body is at its lowest ebb between three and six in the morning and the ability to react, the ability to think when one is being woken up in the early hours of the morning erm are a consideration that we take into account when we have to mount an operation inside a premises. Er, if the person er is sitting watching the television and er has been awake for several hours then we are at a disadvantage. In addition to the firearms that tell us about and the door opener, was any other equipment issued to the officers? Yes the officers excuse me, the officers would be issued with a ballistic shield, this is a piece of equipment that is erm bullet proof to certain weapons and enables officers to er enter rooms er through doorways safely, even if shots are fired towards them from inside the room. And could you just briefly describe the er the dimensions and the look of that? It's about six feet in height and just about shoulder width, er it's coloured black and it has a bullet proof glass window of about six inches by four inches which enables the er officer behind the shield to manoeuvre it in the correct position. Do firearms officers have any training in first aid? Yes all firearms officers are trained first aiders and er carry St. Johns ambulance certificates. Is there anything about the preparation of this operation that caused you to dissatisfaction? No, none at all. After you conducted the briefing, where did you go? I went with er Superintendent to er where we positioned ourselves in a control vehicle and er I remained there until I heard from the firearms team inside the house that all occupants of the house had been found and were secured. Mr it's been suggested from my plaintiff that it took ten to fifteen minutes to enter and secure the flat by the firearms officers. Do you have any observation on that time scale? I would say from the point where I was told on the radio that the officers were entering the premises to the point where I was told everybody was secured, could not be more than four five minutes. That was my recollection. Mr thank you very much if you wait there . Yes it only took four or five minutes until you were told the occupants were secure but then it er everybody waited for the C I D to arrive. Do you, do you know how long that took? C I D were actually backed in the building. They weren't in the actual flat at that time er their role was to er prevent members of the public whilst the armed officers were at the scene erm from entering the corridors at either end of the block of flats. Did you go to the flat with er I do apologise Mr when he went ? I did, I did go to the er the flat shortly after Mr . I didn't go inside the premises, I just er went there to remove er the er automatic door opener. And how long had elapsed between the armed officers going in and Mr leaving flats? No no more than five minutes I would say. So that was almost instan instantaneous with the message? Yes er erm my instructions are that all persons are accounted for in the premises and er once they've been accounted for er then it was safe for other officers, i.e the C I D or Superintendent to go to that yes and they would not have been allowed in had I not received instructions that the house was secure and all persons accounted for. Just briefly as I asked Mr were you saying harbouring situation, or are you saying hostage situation or are you saying neither? They were considered, both of them considered, both of them considered erm but it is my recollection that erm been the inference that Mr had made the telephone calls himself. That might have been an inference, I don't, it seems, it was there it was it was said by somebody er as a matter of course or whatever and it might well have been that erm certainly it would have been mentioned at the briefing that there was er a woman in the house, Mrs possibly and the likelihood of children, er was possibly also mentioned but there was no definite intelligence as to er the having any children. Yes, but you'd been to the flat at about ten thirty in the evening before was there anything you heard or seen at the flat to indicate it might be a hostage situation? No. The only other relates to that visit to the flat. It wasn't suggested to Mr when he gave evidence that there was another man at the flat that night, I am told that if it had been his answer would have been an unequivocal no. Isn't it possible that you mistook the two or possibly three voices you heard, for in fact Mr and Mrs and . There is that possibility but as I was aware . believed to the T V. No there was def there were definitely er er voices that were er there and there, not erm voices from the television. My Lord I have no re-examination. Does your Lordship have any questions? No. Well convenient time to take lunch. Yes members of the jury we will resume at two o'clock, erm because I have other duties later on this afternoon we'll have to finish at four o'clock today, it may help you to know that, it may help council to know that as well. My Lord I call Sergeant . Just erm before you do and so that we can all follow where we're getting to erm what witnesses are you going to call? Then we know, we shall know how we're getting on. My Lord yes, er there's just, we're now dealing with the officers that went into the flat and conducted the operation and then there's one W P C who comes after that to give some evidence but then that's it . I see so we've got the five officers who went into the flat now coming one after the other My Lord yes . plus the W P C. My Lord yes, if I could there was a fifth officer that erm had authorised nothing and wasn't . No it's alright I I just thought it helps me and the jury to know what where we are in the evidence. Good. Take the book. Thank you. I swear by Almighty God. I swear by Almighty God. That the evidence I shall give. That the evidence I shall give. Shall be the truth. Shall be the truth. The whole truth. The whole truth. And nothing but the truth. And nothing but the truth. Now could you give your current name, rank and station? Sure er it's John currently a police sergeant stationed at . And in December of nineteen eighty eight, what was your rank in your job? Er in December nineteen eighty eight er I was a police constable, I was stationed at I was er a firearms instructor in the operations department and also a tactical advisor. And when did you first become a firearms officer? Er I first commenced training er as a firearms officer in nineteen eighty. And when did you become a tactical advisor? In nineteen eighty eight, having er attended all of the national courses. Now if you, if there's a firearms officer a full time job or are there other ordinary police duties as well as. At the time er when I was a firearms instructor er that was the job that I did every day I went to work either firearms training or firearms operations. And er Mr have you ever had to shoot a suspect? No I haven't, no. Now were you involved in an operation to enter and search the flat known as in December of eighty eight? Yes that is correct. And were your involvement the decision to carry out the search or was your involvement the operational search? It was the actual operation that I was involved in. And when did you first become involved in the operation? I would have gone to police headquarters that morning around about four A M and er from there onwards to where the briefing was. Sergeant carried out the briefing. He did yes, that's correct. And were you issued with a weapon? Yes I was. A and what sort of weapon? A revolver Smith and Weston revolver. Are you familiar with that sort of gun? Yes I am. And ordinarily how would you carry that gun about your person? Prior to and immediately after the operation, the weapon would be holstered erm and secured by means of a strap across er the hammer of the weapon. Is there any way the gun could then go off in that ? No not at all no it's a safety feature. What was your role to be in this operation? Technically I was er the team leader of the operation er and therefore in charge of the actual execution. Have you been a team leader before? Yes I have yes. Are there any rules about pointing guns, loaded guns at people? Yes there are certain considerations that obviously we take er we take into effect. And what are they? Well obviously the fact that we er are carrying a firearm and that firearm is loaded erm has to be borne in mind at all times. Without over dramatising the fact that firearm, coupled with myself could easily kill somebody so we have to make sure that every single time we draw the weapon er there is a need, there is a justification for it er and as soon as that need and justification stops, so would we put the weapon away. Do er firearms officers carry any special firearms card? Yes we do, yes. Do you have the card with you? Yes I have. The card that we're issued with. Mr we will show the jury in in just a moment but could you just tell us first of all what the card says, in general terms. Yes sure, the card itself er is authorisation that is signed by er an officer of at least the rank of Assistant Chief Constable and er it's a firearms authorisation that enables us or as an individual,to be issued with a firearm that is named on this card, er for that particular type of weapon er if if we go to a firearms operation. And is there anything else on the er the rear of the card? Yes sure, on the rear er if I could read it out. Certainly. Please read the notes below carefully. The law section three of the criminal law act nineteen sixty seven reads a person may use such force as is reasonable in the circumstances in the prevention of crime or in effecting or assisting in the lawful arrest of offenders or suspected offenders or of persons unlawfully at large. And then it goes on a strict reminder. A firearm is to be used only as a last resort. Other methods must have been tried and failed, or must because of the circumstances, be unlikely to succeed if tried. For example. A firearm may be used when it is apparent that the police cannot achieve their lawful purpose of preventing loss or further loss of life by any other means. Wherever practicable an oral warning is to be used before a firearm is used. And lastly we to individual responsibility. The responsibility for the use of the firearm is an individual decision, which may have to be justified in legal proceedings. Remember the law and remember your training. Yes and er Mr do firearms officers carry such a document all the time? Yes yes we do yes. Lord I wonder whether the jury could er look at that or whether it would be more convenient for them to look at it later. They can look at it now get it out of the way. Er I I'm not quite sure of the relevance of this. It shows that this officer was authorised to carry a gun and erm that's not in dispute. My Lord It it it's not the sort of thing when the gas man calls that the man is being having a gun pointed at him he says wait a minute can I see your card please. No my Lord the idea was simply to show the jury that the police are a reminder. Oh yes, right please. Yes well there we are. Have have a look at it members of the jury it's part of the part of the history as it were. Mr again about guns, what is the your general policy on and dealing with guns in the presence of children? Well we would never point a firearm at a child, erm there would be no cause to, no need to. And in your mind at the time, Mr , what was the object of the operation? The the object of the operation really was to to obviously apprehend er because at that time we believed that he was er a danger to the public and other people. Yes. Yes does anyone want to saying anything about the card? Er yes sir it does not seem to have a photograph of the officer who it just has his name. I was just wondering should it not have a photograph? Yes certainly. No certainly no I well what about it? Er yes my Lord, er in conjunction with the card er we have a warrant card which is individually issued to er a respective officer with his name, his rank er and also a photograph. Now that's the one the public can and ought to ask to see. That that's correct yes. When you knock at the door at night, you make sure a policeman and not something else. That is correct my Lord yes, I have that So got a special pass because you're a firearms officer which is essentially deals with your authorisation to have a gun and reminds you of the law. That is correct. But also because you're a police officer as well, you've got the usual warrant card. That that's correct yes. It carries your photograph. Yes. And it's the sort of the card the jury may well have seen on television in dramas . Well er er as I observe the authorisation card is of general interest to us but it's not the sort of thing you're going to produce to a member of the public. No it's certainly not my Lord no. It's really a record simply that you have been given the authority. That is correct my Lord yes. And it, would it be fair to say Mr that it is a form of control within the police force? Of course yes. And when you actually go and draw the arms do you produce your card then? Yes I do my Lord yes. Yes I see well thank you. Thanks very much. Mr in due course did you go to the flat? I did indeed yes. And can you tell the jury exactly what time did you arrive at the flat? We would ari have arrived at the block of flats prior to six o'clock but not many minutes prior to and then from there er we made our way up to that floor by the stairs as opposed to the lift. And how many officers were to go into the flat? Six of us in total. And had you decided in advance where you would go once you got in? Yes we had, yes. That was part of the briefing. And who took that decision? The decision to exactly where we were going and was taken, a joint decision by Sergeant and myself. A and before we go into what happened once got in the flat, just tell us now who was to go where in the first instance. The the officers involved in the actual armed execution o of the the operation. P C would have been the first man into the flat and he was carrying the shield that has been mentioned earlier. The second person into the flat and immediately very, very close behind to P C was myself and the third person into the flat would have been P C . Was he carrying a shield? He was carrying a shield as well. The fourth person would have been P C The fifth person P C and the last person forming part of the firearms team er would have been P C . Er and put us out of our er how many ballistic shields did you take into that flat? Into the flat itself, two. Are you sure you didn't take three or four or five? I have to say that I know for definite that the force at that time only possessed two shields, er we kept one shield in the South of the county at and one shield North of the county and and hence that is why I went to the headquarters in the morning. And again before we come on to the entry. I'd like to ask you what you were wearing? Every single officer involved in that operation from an armed point of view, er was wearing a beret with a silver badge on the front of the black beret. Would you have, do you have a beret like that . I do . Could you please get . Sure. Right, this is my er the original beret but this is a beret that every single officer would have been wearing on his head and then er in relation to the actual uniform that the officer would be wearing er we wear jumpsuits. They're all identical, all the same and hence erm that'd be the the kit we were wearing there. Thank you. And then lastly, over the top of that jumpsuit er we would wear our ballistic armour and this is identical to the armour that we would have worn that day. Erm my Lo my Lord again, if the jury wish to in due course. Mr how did you gain entry to the flat? A er one of the officers er used a door opener which is Which officer was that? Er P C er used the door opener which is a hydraulic system er it's a jack type principal that when activated er forces the frame apart at the side but at the same time should exert pressure onto the door and then er knock should knock it in very quickly. And w would that be the talk about the door but once you had the door off. Yes. Who went into the flat first? Well you say it should open it very quickly, what happened on this occasion? Er my Lord I'm afraid it didn't. Erm. Can you tell . It was a good it was a good question in that case. Yes tell the jury then tell the jury what happened with the the door opener. Er yes, the door opener in fact was was put on wrongly erm by unfortunately P C and er as the pressure started to exert outwards erm it then found that there was no resistance and consequently all the pressure was being put outwards er and as such then the machine started to to make a noise erm which then we had to switch it off, turn it round, back on again and eventually gained access. Mr how much time did you lose by having to switch the machine round? Whilst at the time, it it seemed an eternity, it was literally seconds, er very, very quickly because we were aware of the noise that at that time in the morning seemed to be er echoing everywhere. And do you erm thought it at least very possible that there was someone with a gun the other side of the door. That is correct my Lord, definitely. Yes. Just before I deal with how you get in just tell the jury what is your a approach in terms of the timing of the events. Once you'd got access, what do you do? We have to work as quickly and as safely as we possibly can and we can't afford to spend five minutes er searching a house, let alone a flat. We have to get in as quickly and as quietly a we possibly can and then once in try and secure the place from any possible threat that might be in there. Let's take it from the point where you have essentially broke the door down. Who went in first? P C . He's with the shield. Yes that's correct yes. And who followed him? I did And what was your position in relation to him? Er,immediately at very, very close behind him. To such a degree that I had hold of P C . And it, I'm sure the jury would get the it's rather an obvious question but why is that? That's because hopefully the ballistic shield will give us a certain amount of er bullet proof cover and if I can get as close behind that shield er as I possibly can it it's got to be safer from my point of view and from P C point of view. Where did P C and you go? We moved er straight along the corridor to the rear main bedroom. Now to what extent did you know the layout inside? My Lord at the briefing that we attended er there was a sketch plan drawn up on the er the dry wipe board in the briefing room. Not to the degree of er detail that is on the map, but a rough idea of what we be encountering. which room you were aiming for. Yes definitely yes. I appreciate Mr it's now five years ago but how long did it take from when the door went down to you getting to the main bedroom? Seconds, two or three seconds. A and then what did either you or P C do? Er, P C opened the bedroom door he I can't recall which way the door opened, whether it was to the left or to the right, but er P C knocked the door back erm flat against the wall. Just pau pause a moment it why did he do that? Er it's something that we're trained in to ensure that there is nobody hiding behind the door. If we only opened a door partly er there is room for somebody to hide behind it and then when we go into the room then we would encounter problems. He slammed the door open. That is correct. And how far did he go into the room at all? To begin with there was a pause at the door, but a pause of perhaps I don't know, one or two seconds at the most. Just to quickly assess that we weren't going forward to erm a horrible situation where er one of us or somebody else is going to be injured, so there would have been a very, very quick check to see who or what was in the room. And ha by this time had you or P C said anything? No, not until the until we opened the door, gave that quick check and then I saw a figure or figures in the bed. Er and when you saw the figure or figures did you say anything then? Yes I did, yes. What did you say? I said armed police, put your hands up. A and did you say it in the voice you've just used now to me? No er certainly not er I shouted my Lord. Did you shout very loud? Very loud, yes. A and again,but why did you shout armed police, was there any particular reason for using those ? Well firstly we need to it it's part of our training. Every single operation we go on whether we are in uniform or in plain clothes er and we are carrying a firearm, we need to identify ourselves as police officers. Because if we don't we then run the risk of being injured ourselves erm somebody alleging that they didn't realise they were police officers and therefore shot at us because they thought we were invading their territory or something. Did you upset him? Definitely yes. Mr is it possible that in fact the on this occasion you forgot to shout armed police? No I know that is definitely not the case. As you shouted armed police where were your hands? Certainly er by then perhaps I forgot to mention as we went through the front door my weapon was already out of the holster and by the time we'd got the bedroom door my weapon would already have been under er my eye level, hence literally aiming the weapon and from there the gun was out, my arm was out, whether I still had hold of P C I I can't recall. You shouted armed police and was there any immediate response. Yes there was yes. And what was that response? Er the, the man in the bed put his hands up. Er, the woman put her hands up as well and then we started to move away from the door, er across the room er to avoid being stuck as a silhouette in the doorway. Mr what was the, what was the lighting conditions when you shouted armed police? There were no lights on er in the the bedroom itself. Certainly not as bright as here, er sufficient light for me to be able to see that there were people in there and to differentiate between a man and a woman but er at that time not enough to to be able to clearly define anybody. Did you try to switch the light on? I did yes yes. Were you successful? To begin with er I couldn't find the light switch because my, my gaze was directed er at the people in the bed but then er I asked the man in the bed, where was the light switch and er he helped me back towards the area where the switch was and we eventually succeeded in getting the light on. By the time the light was on, where was the man that had been in the bed? He was still in the bed with his hands up. When you got the light on what did you do or say? The exact words, er I can't recall but er I talked the man out of the bed, still with his hands up and he took a few steps away from the bed. Pause there. Did the man have any pyjamas on? No he didn't no. Did he have anything on? No he didn't. As you your way talked him out of the bed, did he talk to you? He did, but exactly what was said I I can't recall I I was just concerned at that time to er to get the man safely down onto the floor and secure him. W w were you concerned to secure the lady in the bed? No. So he got away from the bed, he had his hands up. What did you say to him then, you were talking him down? Yes, er he took a couple of steps away from the bed, er then I told him to lower himself down onto his knees and then eventually lower himself down onto his chest, down onto his front. Pause there a minute. At that stage in the operation. In addition to yourself, how many other officers were in the room? Just myself and P C . Had the others still not not come into the room? No. Are you about that? Absolutely no doubt, that that wasn't part of the plan. It didn't happen because there was no need for anybody to come into the room. What did you then do? Er, once the, the man was down on the floor er he placed his hands into the small of his back. I told him that I was going to come forward er and handcuff him and then, then something along the lines of er not to move er and then once he was down on the floor, erm I holstered the weapon into my own holster. Can I just say that's something that we don't normally do. We would normally prefer to put er the individuals officers firearms ho ?id You don't want him to grab your gun? No but on this occasion we didn't have a spare holster to put the weapon into. You'd better explain why that is. That was because P C firearm, his revolver was still in the holster because he was carrying the shield and it was only as er I started to move forward that P C er came up to the the doorway to cover me whilst I went forward. Did you call P C ? Yes, yes I did. He came to cover you and what weapon was he carrying? Er, he was carrying a shotgun and his revolver was in the holster, hence there there was no spare holster. You holstered your gun and then what did you do? I then went forward to the man on the floor er, handcuffed him and stepped back. Did he say anything to you as you went up to him? He did but once again I I can't recall exactly what was said. Did you say anything to him? Er yes, erm I told him to calm down because he was quite excitable and to just stay there and somebody would explain what it was all about. Did you arrest ? I did yes. Did you tell him you were arresting him? Yes I did, yes. When did you arrest him? In the meantime, as I recall, er I I asked him who he was and I asked his wife who he was because he had asked what we were doing in his house and when he said his house, I thought then for the first time that perhaps this wasn't who er we had on the floor. But I have to say that at that time I still didn't know, I had a good idea,that it wasn't the man we were looking for but therefore he was still arrested and he was arrested on sus well for harbouring an escapee. I i if you can remember, can you tell us the words you used throughout the or the gist of the words? The gist of the words were, you're under arrest for harbouring an escapee and he replied along the lines of you've gotta be joking mate. Was he still naked? Yes whether he was naked at the time of the arrest or or just er, what, what I'm getting at is er that I put some trousers on Mr . Was that after you took the handcuffs on or before? Yes after the handcuffs were put on, yes. And again why did you put trousers on him? Well,Mr er er Mr er wife was in the room, there was a child in the room, erm which at the time I didn't even realise there were two children but er there was one child in the room and er really for decency more than anything. There seemed little point in er a wife and a child sitting looking at their husband/father er with no clothes on. I mean it's. Did you have to assist to get his trouser on? Yes, that's right yes. He still stayed on the floor, he was still handcuffed. But er we found a pair of jeans er and having made sure that the jeans were empty of anything, er we sort of shuffled himself into the jeans a he lay down and we pulled, I I pulled the jeans up. By the time you had arrested him or put his trousers on. How many people were in the room? There would still have been er P C with the shield and P C with the shotgun. Giving you cover? That's right yes. Did you point the gun or shove a gun into the back of Mr head? No, definitely no. W why are you so certain? Because the only time I approached the the man was when my revolver was the holster and the holster was done up. As a matter of police practice, firearms practice what would you say about a police officer who stuck the gun at any at the back of someone's neck? Well it's against all training that we receive, there is no need for it it is just something that we would not do. Not only because of the risk and the safety factor er of the gun going off, because of er a movement by that person on the floor, but so there's no getting around it that, should a firearm be discharged against a solid object in as much as er the barrel is right up against an individual, and the trigger is pulled. There's a very, very good chance that the person using a firearm will, will suffer injury because the barrel could well explode. So that's something that we we're all aware of. Did you see P C shove a gun into the back of Mr head? No I did not, no. Did you see P C do that? No certainly not. After you had arrested him and got his trousers on what did you do? I then had a responsibility as the team leader to ensure that the rest of the house was secure and that none of the other units were having any problems. I hadn't heard any shouting so therefore I didn't believe that anybody else was having any problems. Did you go anywhere? I started to walk a way out of the main bedroom and I heard P C say words to the effect of get down and I turned round to see what was going on and the man was trying to roll over to get up or that's what I thought, erm not kicking or or fighting or anything but just to me it looked as though he was going to get up and I went back and with my hands just pushed down onto him and said stay there, it will all be explained er and then walked away. Did you then leave that room? Sorry. Did you leave the room? I did indeed yes. And who did you leave in the room?which officers did you leave in? Er P C and P C . And where did you go? Er, I then went back er back down the passageway er into the lounge, checked the kitchen checked that the rest of the firearms officers were were okay. Now when you went in you were carrying out a plan with you very close behind going down to the bedroom. Yes my Lord yes. Er, what was the plan about the others for all you knew who you believed was there, might have been somewhere else in the flat. Yes my Lord er as soon as we went to the main bedroom which was the back bedroom at the same time as as that bedroom door opened, so the second team consisting of er P C P C would have gone into the second smaller bedroom and at the same time as we went in er P C and P C job er was to cover our backs in case of anybody in er the kitchen or the living area, the living room area. And after leaving the main bedroom did you learn that the rest of the flat was secured ? Yes I did, yes. By secure what do you mean? I mean that er all possibly threats had been secured by use of handcuffs and that there was no likelihood of anybody hiding er in the premises or certainly nobody in the premises with a firearm. And when you arrived at that conclusion, what did you do ? I then got straight onto the radio to Sergeant and Superintendent and informed them that the flat was secure er one person er arrested er and requested C I D and their presence. Now again I but give us as to the length of time that elapsed between flying the door door breaker and you radioing ? Very few minutes, perhaps three or four minutes at the absolute outside. Was there anything about the way that you carried out the operation in the flat that caused you dissatisfaction? It was a shame about the er the door opener not working correctly subsequently er I discovered the incident with the the other team going into the other bedroom and er a young girl being in the bed that was missed and erm. Just pause there what do think about that girl being tipped out of the bed? Well, it was something that shouldn't have happened and it's very regrettable, without a doubt, very regrettable. Mr wait there there'll be some more questions. Of course. Getting back to the briefing if you would Sergeant. There's a plan, rough plan of the flat. That's correct. And at that briefing who were you given to understand in the flat? I was given to believe that would have been in the flat also we thought that st was going to be in there possibly a wife and it wasn't said whether there were any children. We didn't know whether there were going to be any children. When you say a wife, you mean Mrs there wasn't any suggestion that Lawrence had taken his own wife? No, no not at all. You had a plan of the flat. Yes. Looking at it there's one master bedroom. That's correct yes. Who did you expect to be in the master bedroom of the three? There was mention made that we thought, or somebody thought, was in that bedroom. Now what, pray, were the grounds for that. I have to say I have no idea. Because you see all that we've heard is that gentlemen just before Mr he listened at the door before but of course the front door is nowhere near the master bedroom. They couldn't have come from that. But the best you can say that the jury there was some information that be in the master bedroom you don't know where . I'm sorry I don't. I have to put it this way but there aren't any alternative. Was there any by chance, any information that Mr wasn't only sharing his flat with Mr but was also sharing his wife with Mr ? I hadn't heard that, no. Right. Okay, yeah right. So you can see what you go into the master bedroom there's a man and a woman in bed, isn't it obvious in a second that it's not that it's Mr and Mrs ? At that time no, no I'm afraid not. Thank you very much for supporting the evening, nice to see so many faces, as I said especially on a summer evening like today. We didn't really get an Indian summer right on the Erm, just to give you something of my credentials for being here, er the name is, is Lewis . Erm I took a degree in textiles in the late fifties and I've specialized in the design, development and manufacture of knitted outer-wear ever since. A number of companies throughout the country,er Derbyshire , been in Scotland with a company called in the er in er in the border country. and in varied places. the Courtauld, one of the big Courtauld companies in the late sixties, early sixties. And then ten years ago I started my own company er started in a very small way to begin with. Just two machines, four people and gradually that got up to a reasonable size er i it grew on the back of companies like ,,, manufacturing what I call the coordinated look cos knitwear was utilized for bringing other things together. I mean you see it today, don't you? In the nice shops, you see a nice er woven skirt, woven, nice blouse, the knitwear brings it all together. That's how we built our company, and we did maximize from the hundred and thirty girls from three years ago. Erm but I put the company into liquidation at that point, because of the problems we were all having in industry, and started again about a year, two years ago. Now we're back to six people again and they're all working for me in a very small way. Again working with the same sort of people, but in a very small and for our own as well. So that's the nature of the world to day, you have to move with the times, it's going to be a but er this is how we survive. It's one of the reasons we're doing this as well, because it gets our products out of the people directly. So that's er I mean you probably know we do, I do a talk erm I call it a story rather than a talk, and I say I hope it's interesting as a story. It's about the craft of knitwear and how it's developed from hand-knitting into the modern production units there are today. And what influenced that er development. The sort of things briefly are, obviously demand, the machine development, new materials new yarns, fashion and design. They're the elements that have changed what knitwear is from what it was. So erm in to start the, the talk or the story by asking er ladies here, if they know where the, or the know where knitwear started as a craft, the actual first knitted fabric started? Anybody any ideas? Wales. Wales is an interesting one, sorry? Ireland. Ireland, there's another. any more? What about Nottinghamshire? What about Nottinghamshire, yeah Er no, I'm talking about before that. Oh. I'm talking about really when it started. Lancashire. Yeah, it's amazing we're all thinking about the U K aren't we? Babylon. Would you believe, yes,. Actually it started in Arabia. Which is amazing isn't it? I was in, I was in the industry for thirty years before I realized or find out that it's an Arabian craft. And the evidence for this was found, the very first fabric or the earliest fab was found, in Spain, on the pillow of the tomb of one of the great Moorish lords. It had survived because it had got a metallic thread running through it. And so the pillow shape was there and it, and the knitted there. And that was something like er two hundred A D. And we know . And we know that from that it went back to B C, we can trace it back to B C from Arabia. But it's in having said that it's an interesting fact that the knitted fabric as such we know, is a warm sort of comfortable fabric and it's obviously used in where I call the, the cold climes, and that, that's why it's developed in the very areas we've been talking about. It developed in the northern er northern hemisphere, so Scotland, Ireland, the Yorkshire coast, anywhere where there was er outside er employment like the fishermen or places like er Yorkshire,all those areas have got their own knitted . So it was developed by the ladies of the day for the men to do their work and they developed their special patterns like Arran stitches, which I'm going to show you now, like Fair Isle stitches. They were developed at that time as a useful product for the, for the menfolk. There's the Arran, we all know the classic Arran, there's hundreds of them, and there's a more modern one but that's the traditional one there. And that's a traditional one that's been made for in a modern, modern colour. I mean they didn't have them in those colours in those days, that was the true Arran. In black wool, navy or this sort of colour. Always knitted in oil. So that it er er push off the water, kept the water at bay. But that was er what was n knitted by the ladies and you can see, if you look at the patterns, what they did, once they'd learnt their basic skills, were to copy the things they could see. So what you see there, that Arran, if you all,actually a net, the knitting , so their husbands were fishermen and that's a net. And the cables that you see running down the sides, they're the ropes. So they copied the things that the men could, they could see themselves and may be using. One of the gruesome factors about this particular stitch in the Arran is that every family had its own pattern and the reason for that was often the menfolk were lost at sea and the only way they could identify them was through the pattern. Gruesome but true fact of life. So there's the Arran, er still up into Scotland, still on these Highlands Scotland we have the Fair Isle. That's two or three years ago. I'll always keep it because it shows the original sort of colours that Fair Isles were made in. These are earthy colours. Very nice, subtle. Very fashionable about a year and a half ago again, because all these things come round again don't they? Arrans and the Fair Isles, all come back. Although a traditional pattern they do come back. In fact I did one for, for erm one on for two years I think to ab about the same as that, just in pretty colours, but it went on and on. Cos it's fashionable at the time. Now er the things that of course was er was only different skill using colours and patterns but y y you understand that the Fair Isles were developed on pins, and you notice the patterns were always small and I think you know the practical reasons for that. Because you can't have a long float on the back. Impractical for a man cos he push his fingers through the So that's why the patterns were always small. Interesting little about the garment. And traditional patterns from the Ganzies or the Guernseys. Now that's a modern version, again I made that for a couple of years ago but the tradition there was you knitted on hands and you ladies will probably know, four pins, no seams, all on the circular, right up to the neck and then the cast on the sleeve there and again, no seams. Circular and that was cast on so there was no rough seams to work on, and the same with the collar. So you could wear them under the heavy o oil skin or whatever else they wore on top, and it looked a very comfortable garment, apart from the waterproof. And again you see the patterns are traditional baskets, er , ladders. Anything to do with the, the ladies could see and translate. Right? So just one more of the traditional ones and the historical ones. There's a Fair Isle but that's a Norwegian because this was happening in Norway, Iceland, everything that, in the cold climes where they've got a nice woollen spun yarn. That's a Fair Isle again, but can you see the Icelandic coast which they're very famous for. You've probably seen some of these that are brushed, they get a very heavy brushing on them make almost into coats. They look like goats and they're beautifully made garments and very warm. That's the Icelandic so there's some of the historical things that ladies had learned to do with their hands knitted on pins of various er calibres or d degrees, gauges as I call them. Broomsticks through to little, little pins. Er and they developed these skills, as I said earlier, basically for their husbands for use in inclement weather and gradually as they obviously got to m make more and more they got these to trade. So they traded them just as we traded with the wool and we're talking twelfth century thirteenth century, fourteenth century. And guilds were formed so that they could trade these garments around the country and eventually around Europe. We became very famous for exporting wool er woollen clothes and knitwear. By this time gloves were being made, hands were er hats were being made, scarves were getting made, all on hand knit. No, you know happens doesn't it? It gets hard work and er someone comes along and says well can we do it a bit quicker? First machine comes along and a man of the cloth, as some ladies here know, from Nottingham, the Reverend William Lindel designed a knitting machine, the first machine. Fourteen eighty five. A and this first machine, sorry fifteen eighty five not fourteen eighty, fifteen eighty five, fifteen eighty five erm and the reason it was important I mean it's well before the industrial revolution, two hundred years before the industrial revolution so he was really a man well ahead of his time. Did it for his wife actually because she was fed up of knitting stockings. Because what I'm talking about now, the knitting product then was hose. If you think of the Elizabethan era, even the men wore hose didn't they? Can you imagine the ruffs here and there was the poofy trousers and the, and the tights. Now this, this was very popular and, and very much in fashion. Very difficult to knit . So this gentleman designed a machine and I've got a picture of the machine here, which you can see. Nottinghamshire carpenter. Yeah,s so it's a Nottingham a Nottinghamshire invention by the Reverend William Lee. That's one of the original frames, it was fourteen, fifteen eighty five mind. This is taken a a few years later. But that's one of the original types of machine that he actually used. It's still working today, or one of them's still working today. Looks like a hand loom really doesn't it? It, but er the difference this is that we've got a piece of fabric coming of there with a weight holding it down. And the knitting elements are along there. Now I won't go into the technicalities of, of the knitting element but it it's, to say this, that, that needle, four hundred years ago, is still being used today. So is the innovation I mean there are other knitting needles but there is still this type of what we call burns needles being used today. And, and er basically it shows just how, how far ahead he was. And the other thing of course was that one movement, which took about one second, right and you wouldn't have a loom , one movement of this machine where the needles go up, take the yarn, knitted a hundred stitches, two hundred stitches,what whatever number of stitches were on that particular piece of fabric, the width. As you know when you go across on stitch , so one second would increase er by a hundredfold. So productivity increased tremendously, and therefore it was going to be a success. Having said that, in order to get into production, or even to use it, you can't just set up in those days any more than you can today, now you need planning permission to , you need . So he had to go to Queen Elizabeth, the court, to ask for a charter. Ask for a charter to use the machine. And she flatly refused. Because it wouldn't knit silk. Now silk was the product of the day for the, for the royal household you see. It wouldn't knit silk, she wasn't going to have it. Now that was her excuse but there is some evidence to say that she'd got a big investment in weaving machine and I think she was a little bit worried er that these might take over from. So you see the commercial aspects were still in there in those days as they are today. Anyway, Reverend William Lee, his son and his brother, went over to France to see if Henry, King Henry of France could help him er but before he could get through to the court there King Henry died and then William Lee died without seeing his machine come to any sort of commercial fruition. But his son and his brother came back to this country, early in the seventeenth century, about sixteen five sixteen six. By sixteen ten there were three thousand of his machines all around the country. So that's how quickly they caught on. Hinckley was the first area, for some reason Godalming in Surrey had er er some. But mainly in the midlands, Hinckley, Leicester, Nottingham. Hose, stocking hose was being made in mass production and the craft of knitting, obviously, began to lose it's, it's sway. The traditional areas still maintained fortunately, cos it didn't affect the knitted outer-wear at this stage, so all the areas we talked about in the north of Yorkshire moor and Scotland, fortunately there's more of a skill to maintain there. but gradually the knitting craft, the guilds and the productition pro production from these cottage crafts began to die down because these machines are, anyway that's the history of it, that's how the first machines came to light. And for the next two or three hundred years it was very slow progress in terms of technical development although the industrial revolution came along as we all know. Er and therefore more and more people used machines and went into factories as opposed to being in cottages and we all know about this sort of thing. But it really didn't affect a lot of the traditional things that we were doing in knitwear. So the hose was still knitted on these machines. Bigger machines were developed etcetera. But the real innovation, the real changes after the Second World War. Cos up until then all the natural fibres were still being used, wool was being used for outer-wear, cotton was being used for underwear, cotton lisle. Do you remember the lisle stocking?cotton lisle was stocking, utility stockings, still I mean I I was working for the company er, in Leicester, called making cotton lisles for twelve years, fifteen years ago. And was still making his woolly still are, specialist . So you know, these traditions die hard but I m but things had to change and they changed really after the Second World War. and it's fairly obvious, people had been without, people here that remember the war, my father You know, there was seven years of going without, and going without for lots of things, basic things, basic clothing, food and that what whatever. And yet we were seeing seeing the film from the Americans where the film stars of the day with their twin sets and fully fashion stockings and the pearls and what have you. So obviously when the war finished there was tremendous demand. There's demand from the ladies of this and the men to some extent, and mainly the ladies for basic products and the fashion products that would lift the spirits a little bit. So this had an effect. It had an effect on the retail sector, the retail areas of the country erm the obvious thing is the chain store. Someone had to respond to this demand, the small little shop in the village couldn't do it, even the big Co-ops couldn't do it. Erm the, the stores like John Lewis and Debenhams, yet they were stores, they were general stores weren't they? Where you get everything so the knitwear or the clothing side more specialized, only had a section. So the chain stores took up the challenge. We have to produce dozens, hundreds of dozens, thousand of dozens of this product that the ladies wanted. And they came to the manufacturers and they said look we, there's no good producing fifty dozen a week on a machine it's not Marks and Spencers wouldn't take anyone on as a supplier unless you could produce at least two hundred dozen a week on one site. Two hundred dozen that was when I first started in the industry in the sort of la early sixties. Dr so we had to respond to that, and we responded in a number of ways. The British responded by being the best at one particular product type, made on a particular machine. Now this looks sort of different from the machine I showed you where they, you know the machine, but in fact it's the direct development of it, it's called the fully-fashioned pro and it's, and this area's famous for fully-fashioned knitwear. But the fully-fashioned frame knitting machine, the British made the best in the world. Made them in Leicester, Nottingham, Scotland and then the products that made from them were made in this country, Nottingham, Leicester and Scotland. Fully-fashioned knitwear, now I think you all know what I mean by that then. There's a fully, basic classic fully-fashioned look, right? It's, it's really stocking stitch cos it came from the stocking machine didn't it? That is a stocking machine that we've turned into an outer-wear machine. That machine I think has sixteen heads, and we did, did have them up to thirty two heads. When I say a head, that one unit there is like the man was sitting at making one stocking at a time. This makes one panel at a time, but there are sixteen so through one twelve minute cycle, in twelve minutes sixteen garments were produced. Or sixteen parts of garment, and one man would run two of those machines. He'd be t running one there and turn round and running the other one. And I mean there's s there was a company, it's still going in Mansfield today, that er it w c making twenty thousand dozens, per week, for Marks and Spencers alone, in the heydays of, only about eight years ago and we down a little bit. That's what we were good at. So we were good at the mass produced area for Marks and Spencers making nice wool garments like that. And the acrylics because the acrylic yarns had to be developed, new yarns had to be developed apart from machinery we had to develop yarns that would meet the demand. You couldn't produce enough wool, you couldn't produce enough cotton. Something had to be produced so the acrylics were produced in . I'll come back, come back to that in a mo but that's a classic fully-fashioned garment. Erm another one just showing what we call a fashion shoulder instead of a . But they're different, the thing about the fully-fashioned is that it is shaped. You see what I mean by shape? It, there is no waste to that product, it is knitted and when we come to a part where you want it to be narrow, the machine shapes it. And that's what the old fully-fashioned stocking used to be. They used to shape and give it a seam down the back. But that is a shaped garment and therefore it's ideal for expensive fibres. Lambs wool, cashmere, and that's why Scotland specialize in that area. Cos they had the, the expensive yarns and they produced them on these machines with very little waste. So that's what the British manufactured the machines and the product. What was happening in Europe whilst this was happening cos that's after the war they had their own development and they developed a different type of machine called a flat machine. Now that looks a very simple sort of thing, it's quite large, a man stands about that high. So you get about five or six garments in width across there. The difference here is that it's a ribbed fabric. Now I don't know whether any of you see the little hand machines you can now buy? Japanese versions of this like the Singer. Well that's the sort of fabric it produces. Show you the fabric. That is a jacquard right? Marks and Spencers' garment again. Jackline in the, you have to do something with the comb when it's not showing so you've , what's happened to the white? The white's gone to the back hasn't it? And the ribbed fabric on the back. So it's floated and knitted it on the back. So takes it up and knits it on the back. Two things about that. It means it's got to be heavier cos it's not a single fabric, so it's ideal for heavier chunky knits. Coarser gauges and of course knitting some of the more specialist yarns like Channel which in particular. So that's what flat machines do, they knit, these particular Jacquard and, and that's what the continentals were good at, it, cos they look, I mean they were far more, we're so conservative in this country, little better now obviously we do more nowad you know we're talking about just after the war the Italians and the French were into colour, not garish colour, subtle lovely colours. But these machines could do that. Our, our machine made a nice classical knitwear, these made the more specialized things like this. Right? So that is a Jacquard, and that's an electronic Jacquard, means you can do all sorts of different patterns now, where it used to be limited it's unlimited now. Any number of colours virtually, any number of patterns. I mean you get so busy, in fact I think it's probably gone to the extent where it's gone too busy. It gets so you can recognize one of those straight away. And they've been trendy the last two or three seasons, they've been back with the classics haven't they? Especially in recession cos ladies think better to have a nice navy cardigan I can wear with this hat . One of these I only wear once and everyone's seen But that's what the flat machines do and that's the machine that I invested in, very expensive, very versatile, they also knit, today they will also knit the Arran stitching. I mean they'll knit this Arran and . They'll knit that on these machines so they'll stitch transfer, they'll cable, they'll, they'll do base. That machine is very very versatile. That's what the continentals were doing and are still doing. The Japanese are now taking over the manufacture of the machines as you can imagine, and so that's the end of it for the, the Swiss and the Germans in the terms of the market because they just can't compete. Erm again mean time that the Americans er the Americans much more production, they've been producing all this time anyway cos they've got high productivity, need it for two hundred million people. So they worked on er what were called circking machines. I'm afraid it's very, that's not very good ladies but might just get an idea to er the type of machines. You can see the man standing there so you get an idea of the size of the machine. There's the man there. And there's the machine circking machine. If I stood here the machine would go to that wall and the same that way and then round, in diameter. So that's the size of the machine. They were initially developed er from a, a salt machine again like the, the other ones called the Griswald a little hand, salt machine you used to turn like that and make salt. People realized, the Americans in particular realized that the finer the knit, like for underwear, the longer it takes to get, it doesn't tie your knitting on and So the finer it is the more time or expense it is to knit it. So they developed this circular idea because that machine revolves. In one revolution, whatever number of cones are on there there's a feeder for, so if there's a hundred feeders in one revolution it knits a hundred courses. A hundred courses not one, like we do on the fully- fashioned but one hundred courses in one revolution. And it goes at sixty revolutions to the minute. And it's going so quick the fabric comes down there so quickly you can't actually see it to examine it, it's coming down. Now the quality obviously is not as good as either the flat or fully-fashioned and that's why the Americans have a reputation for not but that's the reason, productivity. If you like to think that we started discuss discuss this discussion by saying there was a demand after the war, you can see now that we met it in, over and over again cos these machines were all over America. Not only that, in the Far East where we've got hands by the, the thousand compared to ours, they've got these machines as well. So not only have they got the cheap labour, they've got the cheap and highly effective machinery. So in terms of demand er it's beaten it hasn't it? I mean everyone's got want them, basically. The only reason now, looking at the way knitwear is going or any products going, the only way now that we can get the latest is if we design er oh er design new ideas that are want something fresh or fashion takes over. They're the two other areas, so I've talked about machines, er design and fashion is the next major element. The stores have the effect on the purse to produce that, get them to you and now you, you've got really as much as you want. The only thing if it's a bargain or if it looks nice or you need something new. What you need now, not what you would want you want, it's now what you want. Erm so you're back to this design element now and that's the major factor. Er fashion and design, well if, from a design point of view erm we all work the same way, no matter who in knitwear, who you work, whether it's Marks and Spencers or whether it's Jack Vere or whether it's John Smedley or erm Finks across the road there. Whatever very highly er design orientated, all sold in the same place. Twice a year we all start there, we manufacturers go, the designer, the designers go with the buyers from the stores, with the designers from the fashion houses. You go to one place and that place is called Petite Forlarty and that's in Florence. Not in France, I used to think well the French just starts in Florence and it starts there because the Italians determine the colour. It all starts with colour. Not fabrics, not colour. Petite Forlarty which is a castle in the middle, just on the outskirts of Florence er and e for some reason I mean the c the Italians have been colourists for yonks. Before we were knitting these, before Reverend William Lee was designing his machine, the Italians were design er pain er tt dyeing silk. They were the best silk producers in the world. They were colourists then and good fabrics in the fourteenth fifteenth century. So they've kept that tradition so we go there for the colours, and they provide a palette each year, er that's the ninety one ninety two. That's the ninety three ninety four. Now there looks like there's a lot of colours there. Well there is because it's both the mens and ladies palette and basically er that's the wool Ivere Versace International Wool Secretary, working with Petite Forlarty But they determine the colours, in effect every design house then sells its colours from there. But you find eventually there's perhaps two or three colours that becomes strong through the year. But it's usually not them that make up just like that, it's you ladies. Cos at the end of the day you just pick the ones you like from your boat,you you're gradually, the, the colours come through for you through your magazines and what have you, and you pick the ones you like. But there is that sort of broad choice. And they are very good spinners as well, and I buy a lot of Italian yarns and people say to me why? I mean the British manufacture them, why, why do you buy Italian yarns? Well for a number of reasons, that's one of them that's one spinner and one yarn, and he offers me all of those colours, ex stock, in sort of ten days delivery and er one carton at a time, if I wanted. Now as a small design house with a small manufacturer that's ideal for me, I couldn't work any other way. Comparing it with my friends who I've worked with for years, who are most expensive sort of fair enough. Known him for years, worked with him for years. That's the colour palette which is very limited Mm. you see. That's two or three different yarns, because it's the same colour palette. And I've got to have three hundred kilos. Because they're geared to Marks and Spencers, now there's the advert for them they work with, with mass production, that's where it goes wrong because we've lost our individuality and so I go to the Italians in order to get the sort of yarns they offer me, now they're the sort of yarns they offer me. Look at that. Beautiful. been a shipment. And they're all ex stock and the update I every season, and I mean every season, that's three seasons a year. They also provide us with, and my designers love this I mean they g go over there and they come back and they plaster these things all over, all over their design rooms and it looks like a Paris design house. But they, they give them ideas. These are the, these are the fibre producers, yarn producers they give the young designers ideas of how to put these fabrics together. A lot of them are not practical but it, you know it gives them creative ideas. But it's important that they get abroad and see these because they also imbibe a lot of feeling from just walking around these places and seeing what the ladies are wearing so it's very important for them to go to those places . So that's the designer element and we get together with the people like M and S, whoever it is and meet there and decide the colours and we're going to do that, that and that and you come back and your team works together to produce certain ideas for a range. But that's where it all starts from. So that's the design element, the other element, of courses, is, is fashion. Now your fashion is a thing you can't put your finger on really isn't it? But I mean in terms of knitwear over the last few years I can give you one or two examples which I think you'll readily er understand. Er for instance erm films used to affect the design and fashion a lot in . Not so much now because it's mainly the youngsters that go there. T what is it today? It's television isn't it? And the big, one of the big things that affected us in the last few years was er Dallas. And why? Because of the padded shoulders. And we been millions of padded shoulders into knitwear. In some ways, okay it's been overdone now, but in some ways some garments would look super . And let's face it knitwear is an unstructured fabric so it needs something to hold it together. And er small pads I mean that's a, that's a pad you can take Yes. Right. So I mean you mid winter wool but you can see without, it would not have the structure would it? No. Now as a matter of interest ladies, I sell that at twen twenty nine pounds,seventy nine ninety nine. That gives you an idea of the mark-up that the retailers put on the garment, which I don't blame them for, they've got their problems, I've got mine. . So that's padded shoulders the important thing in the last two years, everything has to be in, as I say it's not true to say everything but quite a lot of things have been in, so both those are, are the . Right, Marks and Spencers both of those. So even M and S has got into the fashions market. Er but these er the quite fashionable, all long-line. And it's still going on for another season. No the, we're moving about a bit now, there'll be an element of long-line but there is er I know a lot of ladies will be relieved to know, there is a shorter length coming back in. You'll find, you'll find a whole of shorter lengths having, having been, having been to Nottingham . So then anyway, I've got one other little story about er fashion before I finish, before I conclude this . Er if there are any questions afterwards I'll be pleased to try and answer them. Erm I w we suggest that while you're having your coffee and refreshments if you can push some of the chairs back get those rails out into the middle there and you can have a look. Please feel free to try anything on, no obligations. As you know erm we, we take the money here we don't charge you for the talk but we give ten percent back to your W I so it's a self funding situation. So er keep that in mind when you're looking and buying. Erm, now the other little story in fashion of course is the, is er Princess Diana. Now of course she's had a tremendous effect on, on fashion knitwear ever since she's been involved with before. But our knitwear in particular, erm she effected us by the little jumper she wore er with Charlie before she got engaged. You remember? The little sheep. Do you remember that? Red with white sheep on? Hand knitted. See? So we're back full circle, hand knitted. Caused a tremendous demand for hand knitted products, now she payed three hundred and something pounds for that. I'm not saying it was worth that but she payed . Hundred percent nice wool, hand knitted for her specially. But it created a demand, and we manufacturers, well come on lads, can't you make these? We want to sell these at under fifty pounds. Which means you've got to make it for about twelve or fourteen. But you know we rose to the challenge and now there's almost anything we can do er on the machines that I bought. So here are just two examples, two or three here that I did, will see that we did . Now you know in the old days, how I mean the knitting machine has done what we did by hand, well under fifty pound, I think that one sold at twenty nine and that's five. So I mean in the shop I, I did sell for the National Trust once but I s I sold them the . You know the ? Er no not, not National Trust, R S P B that was it,. National Trust So in conclusion in conclusion ladies I think we've met the challenge of the industrialist in terms of making and from you the demand. Where do we go from there? We can only by hope but er you know, with creating new ideas, keeping the quality good, so you know you feel right with prices your pocket and er therefore we will survive. And I hope you found the talk informative, interesting. Before or after? Is it after cos I'll a Er it doesn't matter it doesn't matter. No it doesn't matter . I'm I'm actually I have to go back to a house. Wee boys are with the scouts so I'll visit them in the week. Erm Oh no no . through this quite quick? No not too quickly. Erm I wasn't to see the Coronation Street finishes at half past twenty five past. So it's just about the right time Aha. Right. How's the House sitting alright eh? Oh better let her get away to Coronation Street. Okay. Now do you ever buy stamps though to give to other people? To give to other people? No. Mhm. No. So you're not a giver. Mm. And I think it's safe to say you're working. Mhm. Full time. Mhm. And you are a doctor. And let me see if it's in this list. Mm A what? Doctor. Yeah. Er Do you have a stamp collection now or have you ever collected stamps? Yes you have. Er How old were you when you started collecting stamps? Oh well eight Down memory lane. Eight. Eight. Why did you first start collecting stamps? What made you begin your collection? Because I liked the look of them. That's it. Right. I liked the look of them. Any other reason for No? No. No. Right. Could you have a look at this little card, the first of many I have to say. Still thinking of when you first started collecting, which of these types of stamps and other items were in your stamp collection? Er eight. Or are in your stamp collection. Eight. Number eight, aha. Would you like to read it out ? Er would you like to read out what number ten. number eight says? The very first time was Aha. A column of commonwealth stamps. Right. Which is number eight fine. Any others? My first collection Mhm. First started collecting which of these types of stamps were you interested in . Now they don't tell me what to say? Er do these stamps and other items form part of a current collection that you still have today? Yes. Right. Since you first started collecting stamps, has there been any definite period when you lost interest in stamp collecting Yes. That then came back to you Mm. Why did you decide to take up stamp collecting again? For relaxation. Mhm. Any other reasons that brought you back to your hobby? No. No. Er can I check again whether you have a collection now which you have bought stamps for or items for during the past twelve months? Yes. What are your main reasons for keeping a stamp collection these days? A main reason. Main reason. Mhm. Er for recreation, relaxation. . Of course there's no wonder. Are there any other reasons occurs to you which explain why you keep them? I mean there doesn't have top be and the other would be, something to do. Something to do . A hobby. Right. Do you think your collection will increase in value by more than the rate of inflation in the foreseeable future? Er Good question. Mm. Oh gee whiz. Er yeah, I think it probably will. Okay. Different collectors collect stamps for different reason reasons, do you do any of these statements give you a good description of why why you collect? Two. Aha. I occasionally buy an item to add to my own stamp collection but I'm not committed to keeping it complete. Do you think you're going to be heard? Yes. Oh is it quite sensitive is it? Very. Right . . You see, sometimes you turn these over, it puts ideas into your head, you see you're not supposed to see the next card . Oh I see. Aye right. Right. The idea of that er Adult photographs. Please now think about the sort of stamps and other philatelic products you collect yourself. This photo shows examples of ten sorts of British and foreign stamps and related products. Which do you collect these days? Oh this is to do. It is. Right. Oh no this thing here. . Right. What do you collect these days? One. Right. Number one, British definitives. Right. And number six, foreign definitives. Mhm. That's it. right. And how committed are you to British definitive stamps? Do you collect a wide range of them, some of them, or just a few of them? Er I'd say a wide range. Okay. And What types of British definitive stamps do you collect these days? Er the current issues in mint condition, current issues in used condition or back issues? Current used. And from the cards, Er can you tell me roughly how much you have spent on British definitives in the last year if anything? And it's which of the expenditure bands would you be in? Not the amount, just the number along side there. Number four. zero, four. Right. Now fo form definitive stamps. How committed are you to form definitives? Do you collect a wide range of them, some of them or just a few of them? Few. And the types of i current issues in mint condition, current issues in used condition Current used. Right and again,How much would you spend on them in a year? Probably five. Five. Right,Some people collect stamps from a particular part of the sheet from which the stamps are taken. Do you collect stamps in this way? Yes. Er they're talking about things I hadn't heard of. Gutter pairs, blocks, cylinder blocks, traffic lights, Yes block,blocks. O sheets. Mm. No. No. I collect anything . I don't restrict myself at all. Which if any of the types of stamp books and other stamps Sorry other stamp related products listed, do you collect yourself nowadays? Oh. None of those. None at all? None of those. Right. Apart from the stamps and products you collect, do you ever buy any of the publications and other things to do with stamp collecting on card seven? Mhm. Yeah. Right which? Erm twelve first then You'd want about No no it's which of er Which ones Aha. The magazines. Which do you buy? Aha. Magazines. Number one, A one. Right number one. that's it Right thank you. C five. Stamp albums. Aha. And D seven. Right now okay . And again, from the card, This one? Er aha. In a year, how much have you spent on philatelic magazines? On magazines Aha well Probably times a year about six pounds. What band is that ? That's er two. And on tweezer , magnifying glasses,accessories and stamp albums . Yes it says it's on stamp albums. The total? The total er four. Right. Do you collect stamps which follow particular themes or areas, or do you collect all sorts of subjects? All sorts of subjects. Okay. Which of the statements on card nine, best describe how you organize you s own stamp collection? Number two. Okay. Can you remind me whether you ever buy stamps or any other stamp related products to give to another collector as a gift did you say? No. Right. That's very good. That saves some questions. I'd now like to talk about places where stamps can be bought, whether for your own collection or to give as gifts. Firstly have you heard of the British Philatelic Bureau? Yes. Please now think of the different places you have bought any stamps and related products, either for your own collection or as gifts for collectors. Firstly, which of the sources on card fourteen, erm have you ever used to but such stamps and products?at any time ever? Er . Post Office. Main counter and at the philatelic counter as well. Right. Any place else? Er single purchases in the B P B in Edinburgh. Mhm. Number eight. Right. Purchased at particular shops. Other associates, oh yes. Oxfam. Right. And which have you used during the last year? Er The main counter, Mhm. the dealer number eight, Mhm. and Oxfam. Right. On the card, how often have you used or received items from the main counter during the last year, choosing from fifteen? Less often. Right. And at the main counter, er of the total amount you've spent in the last year, both on your own stamp collection and on gifts to other collectors,which you don't do,how much have you spent at the main counter? Er Between Do I have to use this again ? Er No it's not. It's Of the total amount you've spent in the last year, both on your own , how much have you spent at the main It doesn't ask you how much you spent anywhere. Mm. Don't quite understand that . Don't understand at all. No. No the answer to the question is almost er all or most of the total, about half, or less than half the total. A half of which total? I don't know. Exactly. And I didn't have any bother with this the other night. Maybe it's me who's who's . Oh the total amount you have spent in the last year. They must mean, on stamps. Right. How much of the total amount that you have spent, was spent at the main counter? Was it almost er All or or most of the total amount you spent in the last year, about half or less than half the total? That's the meaning, it's what you spent on stamps in the last year. Er a what the total Aha. How much of the total was spent at the main counter. How much spent at the main counter? Aha. Er All or most of the total, or the half of less than half the total amount you spent? About about one twenty. No, what what the meaning of If you can think of how much you spent, Mhm. what proportion of what you've spent Aha. Has been spent Oh what proportion of that? Erm at the main counter. All or most of the total, about half or less than half the to Less. Less than half. Less than half. Right. Er sorry I'm No it's okay No it's confused it's Aye. Erm and at the B P B in Edinburgh on single purchases. How much? Again, less, the same proportion. Less than half? Less than half. Yes. Sorry I should also have asked er from from the card. Er about philatelic collections and counter. Er how often have you used that in the last year? You don't use that now? don't use it. B P B Purchases at a shop now. Er how much of the money you've spent, what proportion, all, most of the total, about half or less than half the total have you spent at a shop . About about half. Right. And at Oxfam ? Oxfam. The amount? Only about half again. Yeah Er If you could think about your experience of buying stamps of buying stamps and other items, to collect from the main counter of your Post Office. Using card sixteen, how much difficulty if any do you have in finding the items you want to buy from the main Post Office? Mm. Never have any problem. Never? Never. No. And at the philatelic counter? Have you ever had any problems? No. Never? Not had any problems. And single purchases from the B P B. No no problem really. It was quite straight forward. Okay. And eighteen. tape sorry. .Right,During the past twelve months, have you ever bought any first day covers for new British issues either for yourself or other collectors? No. Now I'd like to discuss stamps more generally. The Royal Mail produces about nine British special stamp issues a year. Do you think that this is too many special issues, too few Yes. or about the right number? too many. And why do you think there are too many? Er What are your reasons for saying there are too many? Probably because the value of the stamps will not hold as you know, time goes on. A lot of the special issues Devalues stamps. Yeah. You've obviously been told that before hen they've got at you . Erm Thinking now of all the different British philatelic and stamp related products that are currently on offer, how would you normally get to hear about them? Er How would I get to hear about them? Mhm. I tend to get to hear about them from seeing the Post Office. Right. Mm Post Office. Post Office counter. Right, there's a list of all the other ways, in which you can get to hear of them. Er any of these get to hear, Magazines. Aha. Post Offices. Right. That's it. Right. Okay. . There was er she said, Blue Peter, and they should have put it in because they've got it in for the kids. It's true, Blue Peter are always telling you there's a new issue coming out. Er E here have you seen or heard any advertising for British special stamp issues? In in philatelic magazines. Er special advertising? No it isn't no no It's not special but it's just Where have you see or heard any advertising for British special stamp issues? There there was some on television. Right. And the stamp magazines and at the Post Office itself. Right. And Have you seen or heard British special stamp issues, being advertised through any other sources shown on this card? That's have we covered number eight? Posters in Post Offices ? Number eight? Aha well that's I put that down already Yeah. for a a spontaneous answer to that. Any others? No. No. Now Would you say that seeing the T V adverts for special issues has made you a lot more likely to buy them, No. made you a little more likely to buy or No. made no difference? Mhm. Right. And Have you seen or heard other articles or features about British special issues in any of the sources shown? Sorry wrong card. No. None there. Aha. Oh Blue Peter's on this. Oh so it is. And have you seen anything I don't see Blue Peter Alright so you tend to be at work. Aha. I used to enjoy it when Alistair was a wee boy but you grow out of it That's right. you get away from it. . Aha. Erm Well not really no. No. Right. That's fine. Okay. Not those. Have you seen any special stamp issues produced by other countries? Yes. How do you think the British special stamp er program compares to that of other similar programs from other countries? Is it better, worse or about the same? I think it's slightly better quality. Better. British is better. On this card. What is the main way in which British special issue stamps are better? The designs are better. Right. Well which which there would It's design that's number three. The designs are generally better, right. In what other ways are they better? Number nine. Better quality printing . The quality. Right. Is that it? That's . Fine. Which of these magazines if any, connected to stamp collecting and philately in general, do you know of? Do I know if? Yes know of. Well two three four. Right. And Which magazines do you ever read? Three. And Do you read all all or most issues of Stamp Magazine? No. Right. No code for . Have you ever of heard of the Stamp Bug Club? No. This is a young collectors club run by Royal Mail. Mm.. Er If you're a member you get a pack of information, an annual special issue calendar and albums. Every two months you also receive Stamp Bug News, a topical magazine for club members. It costs three pounds to join for two years, or five pounds to join for five years. Does the idea of joining the Stamp Bug Club, interest you a lot, interest you a little or not really interest you at all? Not at all. Not at all. Why are you not interested? I'm not interested because it doesn't fit doesn't cover the type of collecting I do. Okay. . Afraid not. Er Do you belong to any other clubs or British associations to do with stamp collecting? No. Not now. Right. Which of the other items on this list if any, have you collected in the last year? Nine, Aha. Thirteen, Aha. That it? Just the last year. Old when they say old antiquarian books And maps. quite what they mean by old antiquarian? I don't know. No idea. . Okay. Back to card Using card , tell me how you have spent in total during the last twelve months on your collection of models, toys, cars, trains, boats etcetera. Again it's just a band. Zero zero. Right. And old phonographic records? Two. Right. So you've got something in common with Gordon after all. He collects records. Well I don't actively collect them, I just have them around. He must have a c a collection of thousands thousands of records. Mm. To me it's a very boring hobby because you can't listen to them, what can you do with them? Thousands and thousands of records. stamps. I mean w with stamps at least you can look at them and you know go over them and and aye but I'm now going to read out a number of interests. For each one I'd like you to tell me how interested you are in it by choosing an answer from card twenty four. Collecting stamps? How Fairly interested. Okay. Home computing? Not interested. Not at all. Fashion and clothes? Not interested . Watching sport? Not interested. Participating in sport? Not interested. Not not at all. Photography? Vaguely interested. Books? Very interested.. Oh good good good. Erm card or board games? No. Crosswords or crossword pu Puzzles or crosswords? No. Not at all. Wines? Mm er mm. Not very. Not very. Cookery? Very interested. Do it yourself? Fairly interested. And gardening. You need the truth don't know Och yes. Not very. Not very. Okay. Not when you you've got It's different when you have the time though. It's a a dif different thing altogether when you've got time to do that really. Then you can do it when you like. Mm. When you're working and you're busy and you've got to do it I mean like this last week because of playing golf mainly, and putting weedkiller down, the grass is this high and Mhm. just haven't the time to do it. And when I have the time it's been wet. You must have noticed our grass at the front on your way in then. I didn't notice No I didn't. No honestly I didn't. It's a nice green colour. Yes well there you go. A nice green colour just about four inches long. more in places. Aye well mine must be. Er Have you passed on your interest in stamps to children or grandchildren ? No. Oh Oh. Or encouraged No. any other children to start a stamp collection? Not not not children. There's a medical condition that I have, I can't see dust either. Oh what a relief there's somebody like me . Er Partial-sightedness You haven't passed it on to any children at all? Not not to children but to several adults. But it's no children. No children no . Er In which ways do you think Royal Mail could encourage more children to get involved in stamp collecting? No prompting please. Do you like milk? No thanks Jean, just as it comes. You can speak you know. Yes you can join in the conversation. Course you can. Yeah. They won't they won't hear. They will hear. They won't Are you suggesting that Jean has nothing interesting to say? No I'm the tape recorder the tape recorder won't hear a thing she says. Oh right. Even if she does shout at me. the tape recorder might discover new words. Oh I very much doubt that Jean. Okay, how do you think the Royal Mail could encourage mor children to get involved? . Thank you Jean. He can's think of any way that doesn't involve I honestly can't think of er any way that they could do that. Right. It's it's a thing or not Usually they get a teacher at school, that's what gets them started. Yeah. If you could please now think of all the products available to stamp collectors. Which of these items do you think have been produced by Royal Mail mainly for collectors collectors rather than for the public at large? One The . Mm. four, five, Presentation packs, first day covers , Yearly prestige stamp books . Year book. Yeah. All the issues . Can you think of any other products or services connected with stamp collecting, which you feel should be introduced by Royal Mail? Margaret did a good piece of work today. What did she do? Went to the Clydesdale Bank, took two brollies Did they phone to say Two lots of and Yes. two They've they left a message. Aha and two . Mm. So that was very very good. Yes the had all No. these things there . That's alright. somebody to pick them up. I'd now like your help more directly. Can you fill in this page yourself. It's nothing fancy You just put a wee circle around the answer you want to give to each statement. Oh good. Yes. Well you can I've got a wee boy at the scouts and he should be in about half past eight. As long as I'm not I said, Are you sure it's not going to be too late, cos I'll be forty five minutes. He said, No that's quite alright. So Oh good, that's good. How many have you still to get. I've still got plen Well er that will be two boys, a lady giver, cos you have to find people who give stamps as well as. Oh yes. Now that's quite difficult I would think. And a male collector. So that's me got four and I've got another five to do and I had a telephone call from field controller in Edinburgh last night and I really do think I don't know how I managed to keep my tongue still. Comments like, I suggest instead of wasting time on leads, I suggest you try knocking on doors. That is the only way you will find them. I said, Well Anne Avril and I knocked on eighty five doors on Thursday evening before we got one contact. I said i can go out and walk the streets for hours and find no one. Right. I says, I have to follow up leads. Yes but I'm not interested in you following up leads, I'm interested in nine interviews. I said, Well I think it'll be a miracle if I get nine interviews because the quota is far too tight. I don't understand what you mean by tight. I says, Well right The area's not Right away I said, I have three people to find for working class areas who collect stamps, who are interested in stamps. I said, People generally have more to do with their money. And of course what defeated me was knows this fellow that is an ambulance driver and he's classed as working class. And he stays in a four-bedroomed detached house. But his wife's a school teacher and that's why. Yes well . So you're not going to get that like I mean that that was a one in a million shot, finding Yes. him. I would say so. And I w was telling Bill about him and as Bill said it's a waste driving an ambulance. He d actually designs stamps and first day covers. Does he? A work of art Jean. Absolute work of art. You just couldn't believe what the man has done. Mm. It shows. shows the people who go to the Aha. the church. Yeah. What's her name again? I don't know. She teaches in . Aye she's she's she does the lot. Very nice person. She's a very nice person. just been lectured to. Your mother was there. It says here,I write a lot of letters to other people. Then it, How exactly? Well do you? Do they mean, I write I don't write a lot of letters. I dictate a lot of letters to a lot of people. Tomorrow I will sign ultimately twenty odd Do they want me to sit Aye I think they must it must be talking about dictating as well. down and sit writing long hand? No. No I think they'll mean it's number of stamps . Cos I rarely ever do that. I think it's they look for the number of stamps used rather if it's what you Ah well good. Aha. Okay. I would say that. Even though you don't physically write them. Even dictating them I think you should count that as writing. Do you count that? I think so though . Oh. Oh well. I think so. Right If you want to change it you just put a stroke through it. Just put a stroke through that one. And circle the one you you want to circle. So I agree strongly yes. Mhm. Ah write a few letters to the hospital forty forty . Oh aye. They said to Bill on the telephone. I've been knocking on doors the other night there. I went along to you know the council houses in there ? Yes Some of the answers I got. Big girl was just about to close a door and she opened a big smile and she said, Ah I just remembered my daddy collects stamps. I said, Oh great. She says, Aha, every morning, he's a postman. Three doors along a great big strapping lad. Er I would say a sixteen or seventeen. I said, er none of your pals collect stamps no? And he says, None of my pals are like that. What sort of answer Okay. There was no answer to that. Do you know your full postcode? Which one? Here. Yeah. Could you give me your full postcode please? . . . And when you write your address down, do you quote your full postcode, always sometimes or only when asked? If I were to ask you for your address, what would you do? Only when asked. Only when asked. Right. You want to write as little as possible on them. I'd like to end with a few more general questions about you and your leisure time. First, which of these daily newspapers do you ever read or look at?book there they are. Mhm. Yes I'm afraid so, Bill. I I I read the times. Mhm. The Independent. Mhm. The Glasgow Herald, I read that . I like the Dependent it's a We buy it won't buy anything else. Yeah. That's it. And it is independent cos you get news from throughout the land. And which do you regularly? By regularly I mean at least four times a week. The Herald. I need to write and tell them it's not the Glasgow Herald any more. Believe you me it's it's progress getting . Er Oh aye. Or or getting a Scottish newspaper on the list . Yes. If you could just turn over to the next card now Bill. Which of these Sunday papers do you ever read Two. or look at? Aha. And . Er right yes fine. And again,Which do you read regularly? By regularly I mean att least twice a month. Both of them. Right. Next card please. Which if any of these magazines do you read or look at on a regular basis? By which I mean at least one out of every two issues. great list of magazines Regular basis? Aha, one out of every two issues. That's pretty regular. Have you seen the list? No. Radio Times, T V Times , T V Times. What's On T V, T V Quick, And then and then Women's Weeklies You see women have been asked this as well. Aye I know. Er Women's Weeklies, Women's Monthlies and then other magazines. Where where are the men's magazines? Yeah, that's a good question, where are they indeed? There isn't a man's magazine in the whole thing. There's not. Gardener's World. That is very strange. You know sometimes don't read magazines on a regular basis . So is none of them you read them then Mm. on a regular basis, Bill? Right that's fine. Bella, Woman's Weekly,, Woman's Own,. Er Chat, Mine, . I mean as far as Good Food, Woman's Own , Me. A magazine called Me. Family Circle. Never heard of it. Prima, never heard of that one. Essentials. Yes Mhm. Not not on a regulars Yeah. Er just they have Bella as .. Actually that's not a bad magazine, Bella. . Er I've just got these pictures of the Where the where I used to see the Bella magazines wasn't in Southern we went with Bill's father. And occasionally if I was looking for a magazine to buy, it would get a lot of i good information in it too. Okay if you'd like to go to the next card Bill. Are you a paid up member of any of the following organizations.? The A A. The A A. Is that the only one. That's the only one. You're in the National Breakdown No it's not on the list. it's er National Trust . That's not first. The A A, R A C, English Heritage, Overseas Association, Conservative Party, Labour Party and the Lib Dems. Thinking now of television and video watching. How on how many days a week do you usually watch television?. Every day now. Yeah . Every day And on a typical day when you watch, for how many hours do you usually watch T V? Including videos but you videos so it's T V. Two. Right. go to card thirty. Using this card, could you tell me how much of your T V watching time is spent watching B B C One? Get the news About half. Yeah. Er B B C Two? The other half. Right you don't watch I T V or Channel Four? . Okay now turning to the radio. On how many days a week do you usually listen to the radio? Seven days. Yeah. On a typical day when you listen, for how many hours do you listen to the radio? Quarter to seven till eight o'clock. That's all he does eight to quarter to eight No. You don't listen in the car? Eight o'clock yeah. Oh yes. What is the total then? That's about two and a quarter. Er two or three Is it nearer two or nearer three? Nearer two. And still on card thirty. Using card thirty again, could you tell me how much of your radio listening time is spent tuned to B B C Radio One? None. Radio Two? Most. Radio Three? Hardly any. Er Radio Four? Radio Four, none. Classic F M? Less than that. Right. Virgin Radio? I haven't found it yet . I'd forgotten about it until this came in. Er any local B B C station? I try not to. Right, so hardly any. No. Hardly any. Any local commercial station? No. Any other radio station? What other radio station ? Well i isn't if you'd asked me last August when we bought the I would have said probably Radio Brittany or Radio Rouane Oh right. or something like that because we couldn't get anything else . Yeah. Er have you ever bought goods through the post by mail order? Er no . I never either I'd have said too. But I sent to for . So I suppose that's mail order You know you've got to Oh aye. We never buy anything. . You're probably to . Right. buy things through the post. Right. And you're a doctor. General Practitioner. Er and I think we're safe to say that you're married and Two adults in the household. One collector? One collector. I depends what you mean by collector One sufferer. One sufferer. Can I twenty six. Twenty five. Twenty five. Oh sorry. Twenty five. Twenty five's old enough I suppose. I know well stupid brat. Still not happy in . Oh aye it's okay. Oh did I tell you she was thinking of going to do a chiropody certificate. She phoned her careers office today, they're sending her the information free, you're thinking . Yes I know. I didn't know that. doing that, at College. Where's ? Erm be far side it's right keep going out and out. Oh. I mean that used to be a college in I but colleges. Oh right that's. Erm that's probably why get into. They're changing places. Mhm. Well she's quite enjoying it. Is it full time ? But er Aha. Mm. But as far as that er I got the information for the athletes foot and then I checked with Bill here. Mhm. But he hadn't heard of There's another thing which Amanda suggested I try. Another Er Three percent compound . I'm sure but no one 's ever heard of it. Mhm. It's a . Exactly so. However I try it and I went in the shop and . I got an awful funny feeling that shoes. Cos it's a fungus could it not spread from my shoes? Erm your socks. Quite. Why don't you get something to wipe them with or something. I don't know. . No idea. So how much is the course, did she say? How's she paying it is she just leaving school Erm well she's she's a grant because she's never had a grant before. Are they still getting grants? Mhm. Oh I thought they'd stopped all these. . Amanda just back from Tenerife But just you on holiday. Twenty six Mhm. erm and she paid for the holiday, but she has an allergy. She's got she mustn't eat anything with preservatives. Well that's Mhm. not easy. So somebody had told her to apply and she would get a grant, to help towards her special diet. So she applied and she got five hundred and fifty pounds. So whether that's an annual thing or not I don't know. Aha. But it's to help it's cos she's a student, and it's to help towards a special diet. Was she working? No she's at college. But was she working before she Er no. She was unemployed for how long ? She was unemployed. They've got most most times I think you'll have to be unemployed for six months. Aha. But she had been working er er as a pay for this. Mhm. On do you know like the Buses or the Aye right. continental equivalent and she was on them. Mhm. Er but it wasn't steady employment. Mhm. S . Aye. needs to pay for it. Aha. I don't know how much it'll cost. But then if she could get set nights. Friday night, Saturday night, then she could pay for it. Aha. Aha. The National Health couldn't train her? She doesn't work for them Of course she doesn't work for them now.. Er no. But privately private private Mhm. Aye but the Health Service What a very stupid question, of course it'll be private. They're taking patients in. . So that's how she got her contract of employment, her probationary period's over. Mhm. So she's signed that So I mean if she can get set nights, she won't get in this term anyway I presume all the places will have gone. Mhm. But she wants to do erm oh God,reflexology, that's just three hundred pounds. Just I mean she . But it's just three hundred pound. resolves aromatherapy and Well you see she wants to do the whole lot er cos it's all She said, Feet are the only part of the human body she can tolerate. In strangers. And and folk . spent a lot of money on reflexology to see if it would help her sleep. She's still not sleeping at nights. Mhm. tried absolutely everything. Is she alright during the day or is she absolutely haggard ? Tired. Kn knackered. Because she's got a stressful job. Mm. Margaret Thatcher never slept much either. No. apply for Prime Minister. Er She's er . She's not . Mm. She's . It's really all in her mind but . And she's given up her one night a week in the W which Er social science. Mm. Said that sh she hasn't been eating and she Mhm. went under . Erm but to get into the social work department she'll still have to do the that that Mm. Och aye. I know. Er . Aha. But she's another two years. for social workers. She's having trouble with it. Sh I think she sees a lot of women who have been social workers. Erm a drop out centre drop in centre? Drop centre. It's not for drop outs, it's for drug addicts and Glasgow. But there's been a few hairy things, stabbings and it was getting a wee bit dodgy so she's given that up. really bad for drug addicts and Oh right. A sort of wild west country. .And she's got to look after the budget as well. Ah.. Aye. Ronnie he's still looking for a job . Is he? It's two months now, I think they're starting to get a wee bit worried. What was he doing? A chartered accountant. In the insolvency department of his office too. I mean the one department you would have thought would have been enough. ? Oh I wish. Good start. Margaret . Any whatsit worth their salt any what do you call it What is he? Chartered accountant worth their salt would certainly not be working for any health service or trust hospital. Why is that Dr Oh right. Mhm. Erm he'd dead against it. I just don't er . She's so sick.. Yes I got this pile of papers on the Wednesday. Aha. Er go and design an endoscopy suite. You've to design you're making one ? Who said this? Ray . and for your next trick, Ray. No it wasn't quite as bad as that, Ray er what do you call it had already done it . I had to quote . I had to look through all the rest and take what I wanted. Well that's quite essential cos you you should know what's Oh I see right, fair enough. I was raging. papers a lot. Aye I had to look through the whole lot of them. And get back to the designs and see what could be improved upon and what have you. Then that very night I got a phone call from this woman. This dietician saying that the architect w wants to know all about endoscop what it involves, so that it gives him an idea as to what is about. So I thought, What are you asking me for? I said, If the architect wants to know, he can come and look and see for himself. I says, I only work part time you know. She said, Oh I take it you don't know anything about this. I said, No, how should I? She said, Dr was supposed to speak to you about it. I said, Well he's never mentioned it. Mm. I said, Well you should have high regard asking for yours. Well it's just the architect She said, Well it doesn't matter, if he hasn't said to you. Well I said she said,surprised. I said, Oh, I'm not surprised,. . . I felt like saying, I've got a bloody big pile of rubbish here that I have to go over so I've put in for overtime. Why not. I apologi I was raging. I thought, Right this could take seconds. Mhm. If I just knew where he was prepared to stand and then could just sort of do the things round about. Mhm. So I paged him. And he How big how big is the room? Oh it's big. Mm. Well biggish. It's about that width from there Aha. to there and oh square sort of to here, like a four Mm. bedded bay. Oh there's four beds in it? I only know about the room. There would have been, it's a ward. At the moment they're redesigning Oh I see aha. one of the infectious diseases wards. So of course we were there, the geriatrics in there Infectious disease ward? Aye well it's over in that unit. Mhm. It's geriatrics I think . Right. We've only got the one infectious diseases ward. Oh God. So I was saying, I paged him, . I said Aye. I said, it's me, I said, can you come over? Over where? I said, Oh guess where. I said, I'm on ward one or two, I don't know which one it is. So you you So I said, are you coming over, I said, this could take minutes if I knew where exactly So you were going to stand. Now In casualty day unit is to open It's all to be opened up, they're building a new day unit and whether the day unit has access Why are they doing this? to the main building. Why are they doing it? Why? Aha. Och i don't know why they're moving it down there, it's already got a day unit on fifteen. Mhm. Och I don't know. I don't know what's going on in the hospital. I don't bother to find out. So he didn't come over. No I'm not coming over. He said, Just think of the place as four walls. Bare walls. I said, There's bloody windows, the whole length of one wall. Mhm. Just So forget about the windows. Forget No forget about the windows. You can't forget about the windows.. Oh aye, they can be bricked up. no sunshine in again. Oh no, they'll I suggested they leave the window ledge and just left sort of a window that deep along Mhm. for some light, Mhm. Anyway. I was raging. Well I'm not coming over. Just like that. I thought, you cheeky piggy. I said, Oh well, right. and shoved the phone down. . So I thought, Right, this is it. So I get the back of something and I scribbled, Cupboards here, cupboards here, cupboards here, cupboards here and I thought, Right I'll see off duty. I was supposed to be off at four, this was six so I thought,two hours overtime. Right, quite right cos you have to work for two So that was that. So I got home . Aha. Aha. Now i if his computer er had been up and running, erm you know I might be able to design something. Anyway so and then of course Oh that was another thing, I said to him, No you'll want to sit somewhere you'll want I don't want a desk in there, I'm not having my desk in there. I said, Oh yes, and if you think for one minute I'm taking pathology forms to your room, I said, you must have had . Is it far away ? I said, You'll need to have a desk in there . Is it far away? Hey? Far away? His room? Aye. Oh I've no idea but it's certainly more than that room and I'm not . So I said, you'll need something you'll need somewhere knees under. .So the nest day I s As I say I slammed the phone down Hey, he used to be your good friend this Oh I was raging at him. Oh crawl crawl the next day. Mm. He was supposed to go down well he did go to a meeting, but in he comes first of all. Good morning. I thought, Hmm. And then he . But Jenny, she was in hysterics, she said, My God,I see a lot of folk get the cold shoulder, but that took a bit of beating. Erm I'm sorry about yesterday, but I just couldn't come. I said, Oh really. . And that . Well maybe. . So I said, Here it is. No he came back he came back after he had been at the meeting. I said,. Oh you should have done it all. I said, Indeed I have not,the top. Mm. Oh you hadn't time to look at the rest. I said, Well I haven't time to look at the rest. What's the rest? All this other pile of stuff I never even looked at . So you don't know what's No I this wee drawing. That was it. Mm. I said, Oh thank you very much . Mm. I thought, Oh aye. I said, Then tell me, I said, I don't understand these terms. What the blazes is this? A trolley loading bay? I said, What in heaven's name are we having? A trolley loading bay? And then it's got these rooms, it's like an eight-bedded eight-trolleyed bit. Mhm. Only it's got this separate bit for trolley loading it's got written on it. I thought, What the hell is that? I said, Why don't you just knock the flaming wall down. That's in case the roof falls in. I thought, Oh don't tell me any more . Mm. Oh and I just hope he's remembering that I don't want to be the sister in there. You don't want Want to be the sister. You don't? No. I don't want anything to do with the patients . . Well what what would you be then? Well I'm not I'm not being a sister in the er endoscopy room. I'll do the scopes. Aha. I'll do the bits that I'm involved in now. Aha. But I'm being I'm not admitting the patient or anything after Will you not lose money by doing that? Well I don't care. I'm not doing it. I don't know anything about ward work, I don't know anything about the forms, I don't know anything Well obviously you get R T Why didn't you need this in your work. Theatre? Mm. I haven't been in wards for about twenty two years. Oh. And I have I'm completely out of touch. I don't know anything . Each of course you'd be about seventeen years . Well. . Right. Anyway I haven't about any of the newfangled ideas . Ah fair enough I didn't know about that .. So I'd have no idea. The only thing I know and . And I'll just take an F grade or whatever. Mhm. An F grade. Other than that I'm gonna do two nights.. Aye well some of the night shift have been done away. I am told. . Mm. Well from what Jeannette and Margaret have been saying, we think probably what'll happen is a lot of the the girls who do just do nights, a lot of them for pin money . Mm. Suddenly gonna have a staff shortage. Oh this is . Mhm. Alison gets six pound thirty odd. An hour. Mhm. Well this is nights. Mhm. The the twelve hours twenty four hours . Mm. Oh it is. But she gets . Mhm. Aye. Ah well see how it goes. Because I mean this is just the start of the trust I mean, nothing'll change next year. By next year they'll probably issue new contracts and Mhm. . I mean I'm just anyway. Mm mhm. I'm so valuable to him. gonna go downhill. Because he'd the di You're the Medical Director. Yes I know that. Mhm. You said that. since you w went on the ward that's been Yeah. you thinking how you used to talk to it was great wasn't it? Oh it's still fine. Mm. Oh we still get on fine. Mhm. It was just I thought what they hell do you think he's on here? Mhm. Hey? Who does he think he's talking to? Get this want it tomorrow. Yeah. Wait a minute. I'm not a designer, I'm a nurse piss off. I should have said. I'd forgotten . And do you believe it, they wanted it the next day. I thought, Aye I thought, Alright, come again. You Where was it you said he said?? Not many houses in I must have passed his house when I was up there . There's only about They haven't got numbers. No. Tell me about it. I know. Alright. house was looking for. Erm Is it a big old house is it . No I don't think so, I get the impression new house. It's a bungalow . Is one of the new 'uns then? Aha aye it is. Yes . What did I do with the car keys? Ten They were sitting on top of your bag outside. Aye I know. There were about ten . Ten twelve new bungalows . Well I think I don't think it's all that It's not a recent bungalow by the sounds of it cos he's had to have new plumbing Mhm. or a new luxury bathroom suite . Aha. it gives me the idea that it's not.. You must have put them in your bag. Aye likely. No I put them in my pocket. Aye erm Och no we got on fine . I was very I was very surprised. I expected to to be like a village. Mm. But it's not. I've never been. It's not. I was most surprised.. And what is it like? It's one street. You come down a steep hill from . On the left hand side is the golf course and then there was Mhm. two, four, six, big old houses. Mm. And then on the left hand side the old houses continue and the female I interviewed er I reckoned there had been a house there that had been knocked down, and they built a wee bungalow. Mhm. And then on the other side, that's where the wee bungalows start. Mm. And there are about ten . They're not big. There's nothing I would say a lo of land ? No. Because the sounds of it, it's quite a big garden he's got. Mm. Where where was it that anaesthetist stayed that you and I mean, I don't know erm Maybe you went to a an afternoon cocktail party or something. A late lunch at Dr 's. That was . Oh . Maybe that's what I was thinking the big house was. both begin with D. Mhm. Well that's enormous I mean, his garage detached house. Yeah.. Well straight road. Mm no. It's not the best it's not the best of roads though. No there's . Mm. Aye well. Hope it's a happy day tomorrow. .old ladies section outing on Sunday. before Sunday. We're going would you believe it to . Oh mhm. That's nice. exciting stuff. That's alright. I've never been to You're jo I have been to . I lost my good watch last year in . How could I forget that. Oh whereabouts is the golf course then? It's up the bank I think. You know when where it's signposted , I think it's Oh no I think erm we went to for lunch before . Er what's the name of the place? . Oh. don't be silly .. Aha. Hotel. Aye. And then we went on to and parked at the start of and walked up one side and back down the other side and that's as much as I saw of it. I . Oh no is it a golf club possibly. Er before you get to hotels. in the bottom out the bottom Aha. the other end I think they go and round to the right . I thought it was on the right hand side as you went into village. Obviously it's not. Och I might be wrong. Could be wrong . The food is supposed to be good. So that's always something. Mm. East Kilbride has a lovely golf course. Nice golf house.. Mm. And erm . One day we were up at Dunfermline. Oh right. my hand. Pulled a muscle or something. And I could only play nine holes and I had to Oh dear. give up. But I knew I was going to East Kilbride I thought, This is stupid, it's only gonna make it worse. So I don't know. I took two and on Tuesday and it's been fine since so God knows what's gone wrong. . But er because of that I decided to go into Dunfermline and have a wee wander round. Mhm. . Mhm. It's really nice. I've never been there before. Nice new shopping centre and Marks and Sparks and . Oh. Oh that's the ? Aye and the . Oh and who took the wrong road going across. And Sheila had to start giving me direction. I said, No Sheila, I said, I know where I'm going, it's all right. So of course she didn't like to say. We're two thirds of the way along I thought, Sheila, I said, I'm heading for the wrong bridge. I'm heading for the Forth road instead of the bridge. I said, Well I'm not I mean . didn't know where we were going. Mhm. Er cos it's not actually Dunfermline, the golf club it's at er . . You know where is. It's three miles out of Dunfermline as you leave the town and go towards Bridge. Anyway it took us an hour and twenty minutes to get there, it took us forty minutes to get home. That's the difference. Er it's much much longer going Bridge. Er What was I going to say? No. No. For once no. Oh no, it doesn't matter. No it was just that as I say, I went off to town. But I realized I was most surprised. spend a day Oh aye, that's what I was going to say, that was the first time I've actually been through . Oh right. mhm.. No . No but not a lot. Then we carried on out that road. And some person had very kindly turned round the sign for the A nine nine four or whatever it was . Oh no. And that's where we went round. However we stopped and got good directions. Mhm. Mm. And we found it eventually and it was beautiful day too. Started off wet and I thought, Oh is this going to be miserable? Mm. it was cold certainly but the sun shone. So phones last night but the reception was very bad. Where is he? No idea. I was only hearing one word in five. Obviously too far away. Aha. He'll be using his mobile phone again. The only time that works on the long distances is if there's high pressure. The signal must travel better . Yeah. In good weather. Erm . He went to look at the window sill and there was this think it's about time You did something about these . I thought, Away you go. No no my conscience . I did that washing yesterday. And I did that er . But it's doing all this lot . I mean the bottom bit's easy to do it's fun but the cushions and that Oh right . But from a dis if I could just get a good you know one of these really warm days. Aha. Take them out outside and do them. It's be no bother. Yeah. And you really have to see them before and after. I mean Aha. you can't really see what's been done, but I know it's been done. All the black corners have all been taken off. But this here,reading newspapers and you get a lot Mm mm mm. . Oh well,my goodness me in a carpet . Mm. Carpet's alright. I know. That carpet that that this house has been the ba best advert for that carpet ever. Mhm. . Since I got it. I mean the first two the first two or three nights after and that's like the sleeping death because it's it'd been so long since I had a complete nights sleep. Mhm. . Aye it's three month short of seventeenth birthday. Oh oh is she. Aye Bill was talking about driver's licence. And all the kids all round about here seem to be quite upset by it as well. But I'd forgotten that you know, when we were wee kids,and you used to take them that night you know . Oh that's right. Of course. You forget about. Aye We tended to think of Sandy as a liability because he had been so over the past years. Especially married. We kept forgetting, he wasn't always like that. Mhm. You know, he used to go everywhere with us in the car. Mhm. So you'll be able to go to sea now. Will you not? No. Why not. . Oh. It's a tiny little ship it's a wee poky thing . Oh dear. Ah. Now you've got the chance to go you'll have to get a decent sized boat now. Aye. Cos I wouldn't worry about the cats cos I'm sure one of our neighbours would look after them. Och aye. makes it look quite big but it's it's not like. Oh right, it's one of the new Mm. thingummajiggeries is it. You can't really see it. Erm . . Erm And here is a bit with deck. Mhm. There's a hole straight down into the sea. Oh. Where they drop the the Oh. Little submarine. remote remote vehicle. I see. Okay. Aha. And this is a crane thing is it. Yeah, that's where find the er stores and stuff under. Oh. She's nice , she's quite good. And well Ian he's into computers and things like that, I mean the technology The bridge, behind the bridge just unbelievable, I think it's Mhm. got four or five computers. Er taking data from whatever. Mhm. lot more the the the job they have, it's a a very long it runs from just off the coast of er Norway right down Mhm. to Great Yarmouth and then across to . So and the foods good. Oh that's Tremendous. sticker. There there and there. He's inherited I believe. Is he quite liking it? It's a job, that's all. Mm. I think it's too much of the from the you know the contractors. They tell them what to do. Mhm. And sometimes he doesn't like it. Needles to say i if they want them to do anything . Mhm. Mhm. . Mm. head office. Because there was no H P Sauce. All the condiments were unheard of brands. . Er yeah, they actually wanted Baxter's this and Colman's that Oh. and Heinz this. Aha. Petty. Mhm. Really petty. quite a lot of work in er phone calls over the past two weeks. operators. Mm. a lot of work was done. Mhm. . He was offered a good job on a ship called the and she's purpose built for the North sea after Aha. the Alpha Piper. Mhm. And she is . Oh. Oh it's the most weird looking thing. Mhm. And all sorts of safety equipment on it. Er fire hoses and things. Mhm. And it would have been good because it was per The only thing was he would have had to have gone up to and do a survival course. Oh right. You know like taking you up high and dropping into You know . Aha. Aha. Yes.. But I had a funny feeling possibly he's not wanting to do it anyway. doesn't know it but er the lady who er in charge of personnel for . And the course which is a helicopter landing officer. Mhm. It's . And they don't have enough people with that so Mhm. you do the courses in . Mhm. . I don't know if he'll mind . But the second mate's the same, they're all straight from navigation college and No Mm. Well they they've got the theory. Aha. Mhm you know. Mm. I think I told you, the first . I don't know what this one this one's being called. Danish bacon. See the people who own the ship are Danish. . And i the the lady who runs the personnel department, it's her husband who on the ship. Mhm. Mhm. Sinbad, what on earth are you wanting? Mm? What is it? Is it teatime? Is it teatime? Anyway I was suppose I'd better get back. Mhm. I took pork out at lunch time. Mm? Any more holidays in the offing? Me? Well I'm off on Tuesday and . I think I am. And then I'm off next week. Oh aye I'm off next week Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday . Oh give us a shout and we'll go for lunch then. Oh. No I'm not off Wednesday. I'm off Monday, Tuesday and if we get a doctor in, I'll do the scopes I'll be in on Thursday. So I might just have Monday Tuesday Monday Tuesday. Mhm. If not, then Monday Tuesday Thursday Monday Tuesday Thursday off. And the Monday Tuesday. Monday Tuesday six,, that's eight days, nine days ten eleven twelve,th thirteen, twelve days I might have taken this year already. Mhm. Is this you having to take these days? No. No. Is it your own choice. So it counts as holidays. Well weekdays. Mhm. Yeah. Cos Ray's away. And I don't see why I should . No . I don't know what to do. I just don't Ah well maybe a week Tuesday, if you remember if I remember. Or What date is it. Nineteen, twenty, twenty one, twenty two, twenty ninth of June. . Well I'll phone you anyway. Aye erm Just in case something comes up and I've got to go in or. . Aye I believe you. I know I should have phoned all that housework to do. told you about erm how he's . Cafe dinner it was great . Oh aye. June the twenty ninth. Oh no. And of course Margaret's home again in July for a week. Niece's wedding. Mhm. Mind you it's daft. Imagine paying eight hundred pounds return for a day. Mind you I suppose it breaks. I mean that's between April and October she's due back. Aha. home for a week. Oh Nicola's applied for her social work course. Has she? Mhm. Nicola that's Yes . That's her daughter. The one who's in working in a distillery.. And she's a son Alistair . Aye, he's building . Mm. he was Mm. . Aye he's not . Well what they drop I d I don't know, but you could have applied Mhm. for a job as what was it,. Control room staff for the police. Right. Mhm. But that was too much responsibility . Somebody's life might depend on him getting information. For the giving it out to Aha. information somebody might die because he'd been too slow, or there's been a delay in transmission, or there's been a fault in the transmission and he's not prepared to take that responsibility. Mm. It's very annoying. Yeah. Is he married? Married and divorced he married oh less than a year . Oh of course that's right that's right. Aye that's right,. We were supposed to go to the wedding, my father died. Mhm. So there's still not any divorce through yet although Margaret Now if she's going to take him to solicitors. That would be . Ah but no no. I think she . Erm och I remember she wasn't I don't know. I think . Aye no no. I don't think you can do that now anyway. No right. Is he going to be up there sort of permanent now? I think he's put in for a . He put in for five. as long as it's not Bosnia. Oh he would apply for there. Oh dear. Oh aye he applied to go to the Gulf. they need them over here. . before they go. Erm he put in for Cyprus I think but then everybody puts in for Cyprus . Erm . Or Germany. Och I don't know, he put in for something else. Mhm. But I mean he's been up there how long? About two years? Oh yeah. But he likes it up there. Mm. It's doing this he doesn't come back here for leave, he'd rather stay up there. Does he go away hill walking and. Aye Yeah. Mhm. No I've given it up, we can play it now we've got that . Er no I haven't Oh golfing. Oh great. That's why he to get golf clubs. Knowing his luck he'll get hit in the nose with a golf ball. Oh God, Aye. Break it again. Mm. Oh and he met this girl, they went for a weekend to Aviemore. Mhm. Camping but they ran out of money so he wouldn't be able to see her till payday. So that that was I mean he just had been paid so it was Aha. about four weeks I don't know whether how would that went down when he phoned her and told her . Aye. He's twenty one. Pardon? Twenty two in January. He's just twenty one. Wait I think Ah it doesn't matter it doesn't matter. Twenty two. Oh no twenty two. . And happy as ever. How long is she in now? Sometime this eight, nine, ten years. And as as it goes one she gets more and more permanent . But she's she's still well I think she'd daft. She's in at the hostel at least an hour before she starts. She likes to sit and cup of coffee. And when the shift's over, she sits another . So she's hardly in the house and she'll be back again. You know . Wait how long's this stint of night duty? Well that was at well that was last time it it's normally seven or eight nights. Mhm. On the trot. And then you get two or three days off. Mhm. And the it's early. Oh that's her back on to days Yes aha. Mhm. But she seems to be doing night shift a lot recently. Mhm. Probably cos of staff shortages. Or somebody's not there . Jeannette will you fi will you take night shift for .. She likes being Well we've got X-ray staff . Mhm. But that is . I can never remember I can never remember. Erm four years. Oh has she . seem all that long ago It it was if they're married two years. Mind you we've got loads of staff nurses as well and they're not all made up to. Aye. Ah right. I couldn't tell you what . I'm sure it was a almost two years. Eighteen months. She got she qualified July or August. Well she she sat her finals. Mhm. And she started right away. On the ward. Mhm. And that was the that would be a year . That'll be like four years this August. . Very unusually for anybody to stay in that work for four years. Mhm. Usually after a couple of years, Mhm. But Jeannette seems to think everything will be very . Oh I mean if she likes it, that's fine. Oh she does. she does. Well that's okay. Mm. Mhm. She's acting up. . You tell him, she said, Well why should I tell him? Aye. Apparently he's he's quite good tempered . Oh Who's Brian? Jane's son. Oh right. Er and she's not I think there's a few I'm not sure. And apparently the man was a bit doolally pardon me . So he she always to . But they changed their mind. Once she was qualified. They thought they would go abroad. Mhm. So that's gone by the wayside.. Oh really. Mhm. . Mm. Terraces? There's no terraces . Mhm. . John former associate of the Krays, we were offered details of his criminal record for four hundred pounds. Rodney , general secretary of Britain's largest trades union, secrets of his credit card and bank account are on sale for two hundred pounds. Sarah , someone who jealously guards her privacy, we bought some of her secrets too, and everyone's personal details can be bought. Tonight Panorama asks, how save are your secrets? Personal information about us, once typed on record cards or stuffed into filing cabinets is now kept on computer, information which once even the bank manager or doctor couldn't find is now accessible to thousands through a computer keyboard, and everyday this information is routinely sold, to employers investigating potential and current employees, to companies investigating competitors and customers, and to anyone willing to pay in a trade which grows, uncontrolled, daily. Literally dozens of companies in Britain deal in personal data. Earlier this year one of them approached us. Robert said he could reveal the secrets of people's credit card and bank accounts, health and criminal records, national insurance and tax details, and ex-directory telephone numbers. So we decided to test these claims. Nowadays there's an enormous amount of information about us kept in computers, and there are laws which certainly sound as though they should stop it falling into unauthorized hands. Despite this there is a growing market in the sale of personal data, as companies and employers try to find out the details of our personal lives. But how do they do it? To find out four people all well known in their fields agreed to let us find the details of their financial, health, police, and other records. The results of our investigation are deeply disturbing, no individual in the country can be sure that their secrets are safe, banks and other data holders seem powerless to stop the growth in this trade and the Government is unwilling to crack down on it. We started our investigation by asking Robert to come and see us, we prepared for his visit by hiding a camera in this umbrella, which lay on top of a brief case. Financial superstore. Settled down with a cup of tea Robert explained how easy it was to roam the databases of Britain collecting details of people's private lives. There's not a great deal of danger of detection is there? No, no there's not I mean I've been doing this for fifteen years, and quite simply is, if you like, I've been up the ladder, the contacts that were I've had were relatively junior fifteen years ago Yeah. are reasonably senior, and the great thing is once they do you one favour that's it, and it's better because rather than have, for example a junior police officer, who has no idea of covering his tracks Mm, mm. the people that I deal with are are D T Is and stuff like that Yeah, yeah. and they make sure they every time they do something like this there pension's on the line, there job's on the line Quite, quite. they make sure that they cover their tracks completely None of their yeah, yeah. absolutely no chance of detection. Right, right. We told that we had to do some preliminary research for possible television programmes. He said that he who gives a service is worthy of his hire One of the subjects of our investigation was high profile leader of the low paid, Rodney , head of the trades union UNISON you won't move over and let a labour government introduce a national minimum wage. His salary is a matter of public record, but we wanted to discover the truth about his bank account. We are interested in, you know, in his finances Mhm. and how much he has in the bank, you know, how he stands with his credit card, so on and so forth. Erm we don't know where he banks, but we do know his home address. That's alright . Erm so I just, that's the first, I mean, how easy is this going to be do you think, and Reasonably easy, and reasonably inexpensive. To pick up his bank and credit card details and to check them out, assuming we've got a current address, Yeah. erm we're talking under two hundred pounds. Right, okay. And so how long does it take? Anywhere between three and five days. And indeed, within the week was on the phone with the details of 's bank balance. A few days later he came to the office to give his report in person. Right that one. This lot, I say it's amazing isn't it? These are all balances as at what day was yesterday? Either Wednesday evening. He's just got one account at Midland has he? Yep. Yeah. This is a copy of the letter they sent, if you'd like to look at it in your own time and tell whether the information in it is correct. Bank correct, sort code I wouldn't know I assume it is, balance is er correct, er the cards, erm I mean the information's correct apart from er saying it's a Barclay Card but in principle yeah I mean all that is correct. Seeing it there, the n the y name of your bank, the fact that amount that's in the account, the the er gon details of your credit card, what's your response to that? I am just appalled that it's so easy, obviously, to get into these er accounts and and the health records as well, er I mean there really bright here, Mr has no criminal record, I don't know where they went for that, it's true, it's nice to have it er made public but er where did they go to to get that information? Police records? Erm er it's er it's obviously annoying for me personally, er but the worst thing about it is that it can be done at the drop of a hat, you say, I want information on X. and they say, Yes we can provide. And they do provide, er er h I mean I know we want an open society, but that's ridiculous. 's bank in Catford was just one of 's targets, we do not know exactly how he managed to penetrate their security, but he was undoubtedly helped by the fact that his main business is debt collecting, and he numbers most of the big banks among his clients. This gives him an unrivalled knowledge of the way in which banks operate, and contacts inside them. I mean it's, a case of, er if you like a back scratching exercise, I've got one contact down bank, which for no real upfront money or anything else Mm. I've helped develop his department into the best collections department in Britain, as far as the the banks are concerned Yeah, in terms of the response rate yeah that he gets yeah, yeah . He's got he's got an excellent department, and he's kept it within the bank's old fashioned, nineteenth century guidelines. Yeah, yeah. And I mean the everybody, everybody in the debt collection industry talks of this department. I've done it for a number of smaller companies and charged a fortune for it Yeah, yeah. But this guy I haven't cos this guy can get me a great deal of information Yeah. and also supplies me a great deal of work. This back scratching may include taking data directly from the banks computer, but more often it provides details of the bank's systems, which makes it easier for the enquiry agent to embark on the well timed impersonation. The best time of day would be between twelve noon and three thirty or four o'clock, this is a time when the manager is generally out having one of his long lunches, er the assistant manager would probably return to the bank about round about two, two thirty, and the situation in the bank er between these times would be that there would be only a handful of staff, usually junior staff on duty who are more susceptible to passing information than the senior staff. And it's not just a problem for the bank's branches, it's a similar one for the credit card companies at Southend. They know about the unauthorized release of personal data, they have procedures to try and protect data, but there is a commercial imperative to keep customers happy when they have a problem with their credit card. What you do not want to be told is erm sorry you've got to come down in person to our offices, they're in Southend by the way, erm please bring along your passport certificate, D N A chart, and chit signed by erm the spiritual leaders of at least three merger major world religions. What you want is to be able to answer a few sensible questions uniquely identifying you, the trouble is there's probably a repertoire of only ten of those questions, you're going to get asked three or four of them, but those questions, your date of birth, your telephone number, the er address of your bank and so on and so forth, if you're a private detective you can get those, you can have them on a sheet of paper and you can pretend to be whoever you like. Incredibly, impersonation of this sort to get hold of data is not a criminal offense, in this country there is no law as such which makes it illegal to steal information, and the main piece of legislation, the Data Protection Act contains a massive loophole, it only applies to the holders of information not to third parties trying to get their hands on it. Under the act the holder of information has to disclose the type of information they hold, where they've got it from, and who they intend to disclose it to. This is the entry for one of the big banks, they're entitled to disclose information to a whole host of organizations, like debt collecting companies, credit reference agencies, private detectives, and so on. A disclosure of data under the act is only unauthorized if they knowingly give it to someone who is not entitled to it. There's not a lot the act can do in terms for example of prosecuting people who use deception, it may just be possible I've been advised, but it's extremely difficult from an evidential and other point of view to do that. The act really sets out to control the computer users who have information on all of us, or on individuals generally, and their servants or agents, their employees and so on, it doesn't set out to control these third parties. The computer misuses act sounds like another law which might help, it's enforced at this police unit in London, but it too seems powerless to stop outsiders impersonating or bribing their way to get hold of personal data. The computer misuse act is aimed at criminal activity, it was primarily aimed at people who either hack into other computers or misuse the computers that are in front of them. It did not aim for the situation that we've been discussing, where people are trying to get the information. Now because of course we now have more computers in society than we ever did before, and we don't have lots of paper files before us inevi invariably, the information is being held upon the computer. So we ourselves as members of the public erm we don't have the formal protection in law, probably, that we should have. It is aimed either at the external hacker of which there are far fewer than press reports suggest or at the employee who though they have legitimate access legitimate lim limited access to a computer, nevertheless go beyond that authorization, but in order for the act to be successful, in order to get a successful prosecution, the prosecution have got to show that the access was unauthorized, and in the absence of clear codes of conduct, clear on-screen messages, that can be quite tricky. So, there is no the two acts that people might think have some roll in stopping this do not Do not actually provide the protection that people think. So is there any sort of protection in the law? No. Banks don't like to admit that there employees let secrets escape from their computers, which is possibly why none of the individual banks were willing to appear in this programme. Privately they know it happens. But it's not just financial details which are for sale, you can buy virtually anyone's employment details, as we found out. Bing bong. Darling, I'm home. Naomi is an actor, known for her part in the Lenny Henry show. Have a nice day at the office, dear. Hello parks and gardens yeah, I'd like to report a missing flower bed. Claudette. Like many in her profession, her work is intermittent, and with her permission, in August we asked Robert to try to get hold of her employment details. Saying it with flowers. quickly obliged. He told us that, at the time was unemployed, and within a few days he even gave the date and place where she signed on for unemployment benefit. I don't know when when you got this, at that time it was correct that I was no longer working, that I'd finished working for as it says here er Bill theatrical company on the fourth of September. That's correct then is it ? That's absolutely correct, yes. Er as is my tax reference number and my national insurance number . Both of those numbers are correct? Absolutely correct. God erm Now subsequent to erm us getting that letter, they told us that you er you'd signed on. Is that correct? Yes. They told us within three days of your signing on. My Go what within three days? They what they knew after I'd had my fresh claim interview or something like that? Mm. But how it's so sh how? Basically what happens when you start signing on is you go into a national unemployment computer, and that national unemployment computer will pick up, as long as you've got the date of birth and the national insurance number, you can pick up when a person started signing o and where they're signing, you then check with the local office to see what address they're claiming from and what their claiming for and everything else. also managed to gain access to yet another computer, he got her ex-directory telephone number. Worrying for her, and the twenty percent of the population who are ex-directory. Like many people, some years ago was troubled by nuisance telephone calls. Everybody gets phone calls like that, unfortunately occasionally, but it kind of I went through a phase of it happening to me so I therefore had to change my phone number because it was er it was really unpleasant being woken er up by these calls. And how long has that particular number been your ex-directory number? Er probably about three years, and I've had no dodgy calls. There are private inquiry agents who offer the service of getting hold of people's ex-directory telephone numbers. How are they able to do that? Right, erm that's something that I don't really think I should erm reply to even though we are aware of the situation and are taking steps to identify the problem and put a stop to it. But it is something that you recognize as a problem? Oh yes, yes, obviously we need to keep our data secure. Well it's a threat to your personal safety. Absolutely, I mean I feel more so about my phone number and address, my phone number particularly erm you know money's money and so what, but when it's when it's your personal safety I think I think it's appalling. The an ex-directory number is available to lots of other people, erm you if you were ex-directory yourself would give your ex- directory number to friends, family, maybe work colleagues, maybe er er you might fill in forms, mailshots and you may put your phone number down on that, salesmen. So you think that the number of instances where it's your s your security that fails are really relatively small when people get hold of ex-directory numbers. Yes I do, I think it's very tightly controlled within B T. Do you think it's at all possible that anybody who has this number, like presumably your agent has it or friends have it, is it at all possible anyone would have given it out to somebody? No because everybody who has it is aware of the fact that you know they've se known that I've changed my number before and they know why. If a B T employee did disclose information against all their training and against the rules that we've got in place in B T, then we would obviously take that very seriously indeed and erm dismissal would no doubt follow if it was found that th the person had disclosed information. We've got the see if you can get us this number, and nine times out of ten he comes back and says here it is, and on the tenth occasion he'll come back and say, Too risky. The risk which a B T employee runs for unauthorized disclosure is a criminal prosecution. The same sanction is also meant to protect criminal records in the police national computer, but even here it's not a sufficient deterrent. Is this sort of out of the question, or No, we can pick up on a a criminal record if he's got it. Right I mean I don't want to sort of pry into how you do your business that the in the the getting of that information that's that is relatively straightforward, is it? Yes it is it's literally frightening a police contact, erm that simple Yep, I see. it's relatively straightforward, his own computer will give access to it. Right. To test this claim we set on John . Well we want that. Tim's got it. I've got it. Tim, Tim. Thanks very much Mr Shaun you want wine, you want wine. No, no, no, no. Well it's not mine never drink when I'm working. Once an associate of criminals such as the Krays and Richardsons, he has a number of convictions for violent crime. But now living in South London he hasn't been behind bars for ten years. Just finished. Good on ya. There you see a man that works in Peckham, you don't see many of them. You agreed that we could try for the purposes of this program to find out what we could about your criminal record and also about your health records. Yes. Things that are not available to the public generally. Well I was shocked when I heard that that that that yours whi yours you yours would attempt to you got my permission, yes but, I'd be highly surprised if if you got them. 's criminal record, along with five million others, is stored here on the police national computer, based at Hendon. In these data banks are also vehicle details, fingerprint descriptions, and a vast amount of other information. This can be accessed within seconds by police officers across the country. The senior police officer with overall responsibility for data protection is John . It is most important that the people have confidence in the way in which police handle this data. Why do you think it's important it does remain confidential though, I mean why why shouldn't all this be, you know, in the public domain anyway? Well now, there's a question which raises the whole problem of privacy. Erm that in fact one of the odd points here is that when a person is convicted, that information is public, but nevertheless as the years go by and indeed er this has been recognized in for instance the rehabilitation of offenders act, it becomes private information and if someone's looking for a job the fact that he was convicted of an offence many years ago should not be er er relevant. Hold on one moment and I'll just check for you. And to keep this sort of information confidential, those operating the P N C have to follow a detailed compliance manual. Every enquiry and who made it is logged, and there are regular spot checks, but still information seeps out. But their have been failings of the system haven't there, I mean there have been occasions Oh I I would be it would be nonsense to say that there hasn't been failings of the system, sometimes through the carelessness of an officer, sometimes, certainly in the initial stage, because of their lack of awareness of the er provisions of the act. But I think that has now been tightened up and indeed the log of which I speak, and the audit manual has indeed increased the awareness of officers, increased their care in the handling of personal data, and the number of complaints is in fact reducing. These measures may make getting information off the P N C more difficult, but they do not make it impossible. More than one and a half thousand local police stations have online access to the computer. When we prepared for our next visit to , the secret camera was hidden in a jacket, the lens behind a badge in the buttonhole. Relaxed and expansive in his office, explained how he used a local policeman to obtain details from 's criminal record on the police national computer. So is that off the the P N C ultimately or all from his local? No that's that's off the the P N C it I mean it's obviously through his local police station but it's off the the the national computer. Right. But our guy very I mean basically what happened is our guy waited till a senior officer went into the the screen Mm. erm when he was asked about and stood over his shoulder and trying to take mental notes . Yeah, yes. If there's a lot there, hard to take the note I suppose Yeah. I mean it's cos it's not of course as we know, it's not a secret that he has one, it's just a question of exactly what it is, it's the Yeah. erm. That's it. I don't know, I mean these are definitely the sentences. What we were told about that your criminal record is that you had convictions for armed robbery and aggravated assault, is that out of the record that you were aware of is that correct? Yes, yes, I'm that is correct, yes, but th th this is just amazing to me, that er this th this can happen, you know what I mean? But there are companies who advertise in Yellow Pages that they will do investigations on behalf of employers of future employees. And when you talk to them they will say we can find out whether they've got a criminal record or not, how can they offer that service in the public domain without having access to your computer? The service which is provided by those people is in fact questionable, and indeed we ourselves would be interested in how in fact they obtain that information. But it wasn't only criminal records we were interested in, we said we wanted 's medical records too. His health record, for someone that does this sort of work, his health is terrible. Without the knowledge of 's G P, obtained information from his medical files. There's a reference there to you being referred by her to Greenwich district Hospital. Yes. Erm for a certain treatment in October ninety two and ag also more recently, is that correct? yes, that's that's that's that's that's correct, yes . That's correct, and that the further down, I mean it says that er there is a er it says that the reason you've had been the reason you've been sent for this treatment is because of er a particular condition you've got. Yes. Yeah, that's correct? Yes,straight. And the la I think the last paragraph which is er refers to some advice that has been given to you. Advised by his doctor to give up,straight,to give up smoking Yes. and give up drink yes that's right yes. So all of that information matches ? Aye yeah that's that that that I mean I've went to that doctor and and it's like a doctor's surgery surely is should be sacrament yo you shouldn't, know what I mean? Medical confidentiality you're you're just sitting there with bloody a private conversation we that I went for treatment with my doctor, and and the recommendations that she's given me in, well well what's the point er what er what's going on? Now why I mean do you think it matters that these things are so that these things are so, that these things which we thought were in, you know private to you, and not available to other people so easily, why do you think it matters that they actually are apparently in return for mo payment, are available to anyone? It's scandalous, scandalous, that means that people in this country have got no privacy at all. None whatsoever, they can can't even have a confidentiality with a practitioner. If that's the day they'll be telling me they can get documentation now from priests in the confessional, that'll be the next bloody thing you'll be telling me, I can't under you know what I mean, what's it all about? Although 's G P herself did not release the health records, getting hold of such data seems to be an easy task for the private investigator. At the beginning of September we asked Robert to investigate our fourth target, Sarah . And I don't know whether her health records will be of relevance or not really, erm it's much more likely the health records of her daughter who's called Flora. Right. Erm and Flora she's called. Mhm. Erm would be of, you know, could be of relevance. Okay. Yeah? No problem. It should have been a problem because the personal details of Flora are meant to be secret, under the terms of a high court injunction granted in the middle of last month, Sarah is not allowed to discuss anything about her daughter with anyone, other than her legal and medical advisors. They have information about daugh about my daughter which I do not, I cannot imagine how they have obtained it, I am absolutely appalled. I spent the past nine and a half years doing everything I can to keep everything about my daughter secret. They have the name and address of the school she goes to,I, goodness, this is monstrous. I had my daughter treated under an assumed name until she was five, to try and prevent the press from finding out things about her, and they have the secret name that I used for here in here. It is believed that this surname is used by her mother to divert attention from her. The names of my G Ps and their address, when I was last seen, or when Flora I suppose their talking about Flora,Flora was last seen, by our G P. Outrageous, this is wicked, it's monstrous, but I'm absolutely appalled, now I'm not allowed to speak about her because that's going to be harmful to her, but any Tom, Dick, or Harry can get information which they have no right to about her and about me, about anybody else, and can flog it. seems to have got most of his information about Sarah from the data held at her local Family Health Services Authority in Bristol, registered under the data protection act, it holds a large amount of information on patients within its area including the name and address of a patient's doctor. One day in September, Flora's doctor received a call from someone who claimed to be from the Family Health Services Authority, asking for details from his files, suspicious, he gave nothing away. I then rang the Family Health Authority er myself, and they'd never heard of the person and had no trace of of the name I gave them. Erm told me that they had a lot of or a lot a number of people ringing purporting to be someone asking for information, and they like to keep a log of these bogus phone calls, I then rang the patients mother and and told her what had happened as quickly as I could. What is the thing about this that concerns you most of all? The implications for my daughter's safety and security, and and mine and the rest of my family's, because there have been a number of occasions over the years when I've had to turn to the police because of my anxiety about that when there's been a lot of attention from the media and when the press have published our address and so on erm and we've had I've had specific death threats particularly against my daughter on one occasion. So it's that is very alarming to think that erm somebody putting it about or happy to make available to others information about my domestic arrangements and my habits. And of course the pro the information about Flora is the is the thing which concerns me most. Er, anything else? Erm, yes there is one other thing about the program, er which you might be interested in. Mhm. The program's about you. Erm it's about how people sell personal data er for money to other people erm and erm you're quite er you will be quite a substantial part of the program. Hmm. Naming us? Yes, that's right. I just wondered what your response to it was, seeing as er what you're doing is getting information to which you're not entitled, and selling it for money to other people. Ah, I'm sorry I can't comment. Thanks. Well don't you think that it's really rather improper for you to be doing this? After all people are entitled to some secrecy aren't they, about their You don't feel that there's any need at all to give any explanation of your behaviour? You don't think that an explanation is due here? This information after all should have received confidential and does belong to other people, doesn't it? What I thinks embarrassing is that And you're just stealing it you're just stealing it so that you can make money aren't you? Do people have a right to have their health records confidential do they not? Have you got nothing to say what so ever? 'Fraid not, no. Robert is not alone in selling personal information from data banks. Many companies, using only the most casual euphemisms, offer these services, so we spent a day on the phone talking to detective agencies listed in Yellow Pages, asking them what they had to offer. We said we were a research company thinking of vetting a future employee. Before they came we removed all trace of our connection to television, rearranged the office furniture a bit, and hid a camera in a bankers box. The bank enquiry line If they're clean. Okay. Yeah. To obtain overdraft facility, current bank balance, and comments on how the account has been run, Yeah. that would cost you fifty pounds for that. Right. Plus V A T. Right we can supply bank information for instance we can supply you with the balance, erm we should be able to let you know what sort of standing orders there are, erm but that would be charged at an extra rate because Yeah. we would have to find out Yeah. about the bank and that's not easy. It's a grey area, and everything that we do is totally ethical and professional, but obviously what were talking about is obtaining information. Yeah. There is a hell of a lot of information er at at mm the Fraud Squad Yeah. I E associates and that sort of thing Yeah, yeah. which I can have checked, you know what I mean Yeah, yeah. you throw the name Bill Boggins into that Yeah. and it'll come up that he's and that's probably the sort of person your going to get somebody who's is a smell about rather than Yeah. do you know what I mean? Yeah. And so that's why erm you know we we only use certain contacts who we know are very reliable Yeah, yeah. erm and in a position really where where they wouldn't be challenged Right. but of course they they want to be paid quite well I Sure. hasten to add. To ascertain s criminal record hundred pounds, to ascertain that. If it's got a full criminal record if their known er that could be it could be as cheap as fifty pounds, for a criminal record I can't make any guarantees on that Right. Because the there's only one way of obtaining somebody's criminal record and that's getting a police officer to do it. To do the enquiring? Yes. Right. Basically we have erm access. Not official access, but we do have access. Yeah. I know people in this sort of line of business who will sit here and tell you all sorts of crap. Here, here. Excuse me er anyway it's bu really there's no, we haven't got a crystal ball you know. Yeah. Yeah. It's about grey matter and tr and and a bit of, you know, ducking and diving and a bit of erm cun and it's it's who you know and not what you know I mean really, excuse me one moment. He's a good lad. Yesterday we got five tracing agents to come into our office, all of them offered to get details of people's bank accounts, Mm. details several cases details from the er the police national computer, er for sale at prices varying from sort of fifty pounds to a hundred and fifty pounds Mhm. and we've just rung these people up from the Yellow Pages, I mean this does suggest doesn't it that there's quite a f quite a a big market out there for this stuff ? Well it may well suggest it, I mean I have no no reason to doubt the statement you've made or even statements made in newspapers, they've added to my concern from my own investigations. What I cannot do is go around and do a full enquiry to find out what the position is, an enquiry indeed might be difficult, because you may have found these people but actually pinning down er to who does it and what actually happens may be more difficult. It is not clear why it should be that difficult, routinely, every day, enquiry agents are used to discover details of employees and customers financial, health, and criminal records. Very, very large solicitors firms, insurance companies, and very large multinationals, these were just some of the customers of which the private detectives who visited us boasted. And they will never be short of custom until the government acts. We asked the Home Office to appear in this program, but they refused, instead they sent us a letter full of encouraging noises about how seriously they took the question of data protection. However, serious action to close the loopholes in the law will have to wait on the parliamentary timetable and the European legislation, until then, with more and more companies wanting to know the truth about their employees, competitors and suppliers, and with more and more information being put onto computers, the trade in personal data looks set to thrive. In the security world everything is a compromise, as there are no absolutes erm you want an absolutely secure health service, don't have a health service, don't let ever give any information out, erm if you fall ill away from your home er you're called into a hospital, you would like the thought that er the hospital can ring up your doctor and get information about you fairly quickly you don't want to have a whole bureaucratic erm apparatus saying no that information isn't available. It sounds as though it's going to go on forever then. It could well go on forever unless one of two things happens, unless everybody guards themselves against giving information away, which as a matter of practice many will do, and many probably won't, or secondly that some legislation is brought about to make this an offence, and to treat it seriously. There seems little doubt that legislation would reduce the extent to which confidential personal data is sold. But as those who want the information get more cunning, we may find that our personal privacy has been eroded forever. My own feeling is that er er as against someone who is er reasonably determined and reasonably methodical there is very little privacy, there is more privacy if you are extremely rich and can afford to have bank accounts in Liechtenstein and can afford to hire lawyers to prevent stories about you appearing in the newspapers, but for th for the majority of us erm there is very little privacy. Okay then, welcome to everyone, and er hopefully a few minutes but if it does Yes, I realise God of power and love, be with us during our meeting. Look kindly on the tasks we have begun and assist us in our further undertakings. Give us the wisdom, through the help of the Holy Spirit, to realize our aims as a pastoral council, to understand what is needed, to find a means of achieving our end, and to do so with sens sensitivity for the feelings and opinions of our fellow parishioners. Guide us oh God with your love as we await the coming of your son and give us all grace to welcome him into our hearts as his mother welcomed him in Bethlehem, and we ask her help as we pray. Hail Mary Jesus, Holy Mary Mother of God, pray for us sinners . Amen . Thanks ever so much. Is that anything important? Well, it was somebody who wanted to know if her treasurer man was here? And it was a young fellow who lives up Lane so I felt quite comfortable in saying I didn't think they had any young fellas who lived in Lane. I haven't received any apologies. I know is due to come. She said to me earlier today she was coming. Who else is missing then?? And , yes. The minutes of the last meeting, the twentieth, the nineteenth of October, which is quite a long time ago, did anyone have any particular comments? There's no comments on the minutes? . Fine, next item. Just to get you into the mood perhaps, is it possible to have a report back on the visit to ? Those who were down there. haven't come prepared with, with any notes. I did, you'll have to forgive me, I mean I think for the sake of those who were not at the meeting erm what we should really say is that actually said that he wanted to hear what kind of a parish we are so that he could attempt to match the, the incoming priest with you know the need of the parish. That was actually what he said, and he did then go on to say that you know he is one of a group of people who I think they call themselves the appointments committee and that their job, where appointments are concerned, is crisis management. So, I mean having said, you know, that he was interested to hear what kind of parish, I mean it was, it was obvious that it would also depend on who was available. That was the general feeling but he did, he gave us about an hour and a half. You know, we had a long time really just to kind of toss out . Erm, we'd had a meeting prior to going so we had a fair idea of you know, we kind of got together and shared some thoughts before we, before we went. I don't know if anyone wants to put anything into the pool of things that, points that we raised and er or a general feeling that they had after that meeting. Did he have any questions about our parish, or did he just listen to what information was being given? Yes, he certainly did ask questions about our parish. He did ask questions yes What? Can you remember anything ? What was important in his mind, that's the thing. Mass attendance, erm, mentioned the hospital, he asked me what the hospital was like you know, whether it was acute or, or whatever erm He noted there were the two schools? Yes, he asked about the schools in the parish as well, and about the situation in and . And how it really fitted together, if they fitted together. But he did say there was a possibility that and could in time be made into a parish of their own. Did he have any comments on our erm constitution, having seen it ? He did, he just can you just go through it with a fine toothcomb if you wanted it proved . He asked about parish organizations as well, didn't he? Yes, erm I think, well,that many questions. I mean we, we did most of the talking I think really Well he, he was Sounds like you He wanted we had to tell him you know basically. And what he did was he wrote down quite a number of things. Oh yes? I mean, he had to once or twice correct the emphasis of what he was saying. But erm, what He did say that with the mass attendance at around about nine hundred that we would only get one priest One priest, yes. Ideally we would have two but, nine hundred practising, one priest. But he said he was going to ask for two. Yes. The other thing we were tussling over was the erm the exact wording of collaborative ministry and the things Whether it was on banding it down and he said we would be happy about that Down yes and we said no, we wouldn't that would be incorrect we wouldn't be happy I think was what we Did you ask him what the point of that was, was it a technicality ? He said it was to prevent the priest being mixed up, it was an opportunity to a new priest to come in and sort of if it had become he could establish groups. Not all parish councils are. I was told that the last thing a parish priest coming in would want would be to take place before he It would, he did say, any sensible priest wouldn't want them to stand out, I think those were the words he used, immediately anyway. But in some parishes it er had been useful for them to stand out because the parish council was made up of people who had grown old with parish priests and er it was a chance to make a new start. Particularly I mean you do get parishes where the parish priest has been there for the last thirty years or something like that. He's had feels like it I think what he really wanted was an outline of the parish. What we were expecting and erm he wanted to know, to a large extent, how we felt about all the erm things that are going on in the parish. I think as much as anything he was testing our mood on whether or not, whether we were going to be helpful or . Really, I mean I think i cos he'd obviously done no preparation at all really for the meeting. I doubt if he'd, I mean if he'd looked at the constitution it was only a constitution, it was oh yes, that's their constitution. I mean he hadn't a clue what it, what was written in it. No, I mean he didn't know we were an elected body, did he? That's pretty basic, isn't it? And he kept saying things like well, you will make them welcome, won't you? He did actually, he made a comment about receiving the parish magazine and that th you know his awareness that the parish had been kept fully aware of the, the erm situation with the you know, he was, he was kind of very conscious of that, that erm, you that the parish were aware and that we all understood the situation and he commented on the generosity of the , which he said not all religious orders have been so generous in the past. Erm, but he also thought it was quite nice that they were, and good that they were, as generous, or have been as generous as they have. Can I make some comment about the meeting because something arise from that meeting which was in er important information for me, namely that the diocese are anticipating that will remain to look after , I gather. I mean, I think that came through the meeting. I think they're probably grateful Could I just raise one quick issue which I was going to mention under any other business but I'd like to get it out of the way, and that is er the departure. Er, if staying, I'm trying to make arrangements for to stay locally and most likely will be leaving round about Easter, so when it comes to the departure it will be myself . I would be very grateful if the departure could be as low key I actually, I actually would request that at this stage, very early on, and quite seriously. But I think, I think, most parishioners and certainly th everyone on the parish council are very aware of both my feelings and the and er clearly it will be important to mark it and I'm sure we would wish to work together in doing so. Well, we thought a nice service of thanksgiving actually. Thank you. Very low key, very low key Erm, but I think you, I mean I do actually seriously Yes, alright Yes, Father put that forward and to get it out of the way . Is there anything else we need to say about the ? One thing that he did make very clear at the end was that if we thought of other things that he should know about, or it would be helpful for him to know about, we should contact him, so he's left it very open for us to have an ongoing contact which I thought . I felt on the whole it was quite positive. I mean obviously on the whole he can't guarantee what sort of priest we're going to get, but the whole meeting was quite positive. Do you feel it will be appropriate for, to do a bit of a write up, about that,wh what can be said Yes Yes Yes as a follow up to the statement that was made on the evening, on the Sunday evening when you gave your explanation when made the point about the visit for a weekend away, or a day away, and to involve the parishioners. And the announcement that we were having that visit. Actually actually did go in the newsletter so the parish were aware that in the newsletter We did ask him about you know what arrangements were normal in his diocese for er handover . He said that it is er a matter between the incoming and outgoing priests, so He also interestingly asked us if we'd have any objections to another religious order. quite what he wrote down at the end Because he said, he wrote down something like you would be quite happy, happy to, to have another religious order here, which is not at all what had been said. What had been said was we would be open to the poss I can't remember now the exact words he used, but We wouldn't object. we wouldn't object yes, it was very you know, the emphasis was very different and just as the you know the emphasis on, on the handover erm, he wrote down that we would be happy to stand down and in fact what we said was we We would be prepared to. we would like to continue and be prepared to serve and help the new parish priest. However, we recognized you know that stand down. Well, we didn't quite say that, but we don't really want to. in order of to help him out Mhm, he did actually say that he thought it was highly unlikely Unlikely yes but of course when religious orders come in they usually want to be in the inner city and, and wouldn't exactly qualify We will serve the diocese and man in power as much as possible can if possible Is, who would er who would write that, was it you yourself would you be happy to try and draft something? It might be quite a difficult thing to draft. It is. Er, because clearly there are some points you wouldn't want to be too specific about. Don't know if we could hold them to, to it. On the other hand the point, for example, that one priest is, is a very distinct possibility, is something which could be expressed in some way I would have thought. What about ? I think it's quite er a possibility, or probability, that he will stay. Erm, actually that was mentioned at the open meeting, wasn't it? This will go in the parish magazine, will it? Yes. And the Bishop sees the parish magazine? Yes. So therefore it will give you the opportunity of destroying the Well, if I draft something and then let look at it cos she made notes? Yes, yes Yes it was, we did stress that I'm trying to think of a or two you see Mhm Or more Can we then turn to the er reflection item with feedback on day. I didn't see this as being primarily er a, a reflection on the day as such, although they haven't actually had the opportunity to sort of mull it over. And I think such an opportunity might be helpful, to actually mull it over. But I have a feeling it might be easier to mull it over at the next meeting. Don't know whether people might be in agreement with that. It's not a very mulling it over evening, is it, with this? But the longer we leave it, the harder it will be to Erm, can we not just toss some thoughts Yes around about it, like whether we liked it or not, whether he was, it was a good thing to have had it, we should have been better not to have had it with the situation at the time, you know, that kind of mulling over might be I think it helped us to get to know her, apart from anything else. I think it helped us to get to know one another better. I know a lot of us have done terms for a long term, but to be together closely and observe each other reacting and doing things it gives a better idea of how people think, being in this together. Yes. Yes, I have to say I enjoyed it far more than I expected. I actually enjoyed it. I found it er inspiring in a way . The only thing that I did find was that the, getting to grips with the issues er th was certainly as difficult, possibly more difficult, than I realized. Erm, I felt very much that er without 's very skilful erm chairing of the last session that it would have been, it could have been, yes, very, I mean, a very inconclusive day. I actually do think what we've got down in the third session is an enormous help from the point of view of our future review. But er that was, that was very much er clutching at things that might have been at the last moment. I certainly enjoyed it. And so did I. There was certainly a lot of pressure during the day Yes. Well we had to discuss on the way home in the car that it would be better to have parish council meetings during the day rather than the evening. Because we were so much more awake and alert, I certainly was. You all seem to be very alert in the evening I don't know, not always It helped not having the accompaniment. I think it's louder, do you agree? but not a lot Well, they've soundproofed the room, we can turn it up now jukebox in the hallway? Take the fuse out so we can't hear it Absolutely Does anyone, would anyone offer a more critical appraisal of the day? I think we were a bit woolly really I think th the difficulty with that kind of day is that unless you've decided what the outcome's going to be before you start, you're not actually going together are you? You know, so, I mean, in a way, it's more for a new parish council coming together erm you know, perhaps one of the, the most important things we have to learn is that it's, it is difficult to be very specific because you know we're not an action committee. We are, we are about trying,u understanding each other, trying to understand the parish, understand what the parish is, is looking for. Erm, and if we decide that we're going to just kind of, as a result of a day like that, do three things or something like that, you know, erm I'm not sure that that's helpful but No, I think maybe We should maybe have concentrated on getting to know each other and another time try to focus on things perhaps, I don't know, I just I think the whole field is, is quite complex when you ponder on it. I think there's a danger, if we keep surveying a wide range over a long term, you end up by not moving forward very quickly in a particular direction. Now, I know it is sometimes bad to be very narrow in your outlook but I think it was a good idea to focus on , we consider as a pretty high priority and make as much progress as we can, without forgetting other things and try and teach ourselves to do something within a fairly short space of time. Is that not a ? Because when you do that then that encourages you to, oh yes, well we can, you know, that went quite well but we ought to have done that and that and then you immediately, you, you're eager to do other things and people get used to splitting up and tackling things in a focused way. You were making a good point there. That is what happens in sub-committees, isn't it? We get down to the nitty-gritty there really. Well, that's, yes and to some extent I think even the general meeting has to be fairly focused. I mean I personally think that we've, that with that third session, looking at things, certain topics have come out Yes that we need to focus on, so we've highlighted what to move forward on those those issues. Yes. some of them are already actioned there Like, like which Well, we've also already had a report to the magazine. Yes Is this an appropriate time to erm ? It might be, yes Yes, okay. Because I, I've received a letter erm from a parishioner, if I can find it, er which I have photocopied for everyone, which I think was a direct response to the fact that there was something in the magazine and perhaps a direct response to other meetings and to a general feeling as well. Erm, because it might, it might be helpful you know to see how. Sorry? That's not our parish That's Is this the only response we've had to that article? It's the only response I know of, yes, I don't know, had anybody heard? Has anybody had a There are general sort of comments that they don't really know what the parish council does and they're not very sure, erm, sort of it, it was mainly through the children's card thing, perhaps a little bit of money that their child, you know didn't me meet any recognition but wouldn't it have been nice to know exactly what the picture had been for, and sort of the nitty- gritty doesn't necessarily get filtered through. You know, we're not direct enough in what we say is actually happening with parish council money. Again, this is, it depends on the sort of person, doesn't it? The sort of person who's ready to pick nits or the sort of person who's, what I think erm it does tie in erm er what you've just said with one of the points that made at the P P C day, that the P P C now has no representatives' organizations or parish organizations. I mean, there are parish organizations represented here but not a very large number But not official but they're not the representatives, and this does have some bearing I think on er remark with regard to erm where does the parish council P P C actually fit in? One of the areas erm that I think we specifically try to fasten on are, is, is actually in the gaps. We've said well let's not look at the parish organizations, specifically, because those are covering areas that we don't need to look at. We're trying to look to the gaps, and I wonder if we are, as you suggest in the comments that you've received perhaps losing, we're not perhaps sufficiently direct in addressing the parish organizations which are after all the core of a parish. I mean, those, if the members of the parish organizations are going to read what's in the parish magazine with the greatest interest The, the point of the change in our constitution was actually to er move strictly away from all parish organizations having a right to representative here, and just a small number have elected . I mean, we consciously have moved the constitution away from. Basically, because it's felt that the parish council shouldn't be interfering with those organizations, that is, their operation Yes erm, and the direction of the parish council should be more in terms of defining strategy and so on. I'm a bit worried at some of what is saying here erm, which seems to me like wanting to er create bureaucratic structure within a parish that, charts, positioning of everyone and they should know therefore, I just don't think is, that's my personal view, I don't think it's the right approach at all to a parish. Yes, you've got to have a certain degree of structure in it and that happens I think through the parish council in a number of the key areas, but you have got to retain a degree of flexibility, otherwise you will just stifle initiative, you'll stifle growing issues that happen. I mean, in the parish over the erm what five to ten years, the things that have grown are in their own , the , various other support groups and so on. Now I'm not necessarily thinking that that would've happened if the parish council said, we will set up a group. Yes to do it don't necessarily think that that type of event happens Yes, I, I, I, I'd agree. I wonder if we should have that poster on sort of permanent display there to show the links that P P C have with different organizations, and also the sub-committees that people have brought in, because actually the C W L congress is a bit odd, as is actually on the sub-committee And I, on the P P C day you know actually said that the people at the had asked you what goes on at They did ask me if they but erm I can im I can't imagine that hasn't told th the of the C W L , has she? No? Well, it doesn't sort of impinge on the Sunday School or isn't likely to Cos she's very much involved in it and er it is a good system. I used it in Germany. Does it matter if they're not erm, if they don't know of each other 's existence? Presumably if, if people can't get to Sunday School, you would hear about it and do something about it No, to be honest, I wouldn't, I wouldn't say there was No, I didn't mean there was I think to be quite honest, if they're not interested enough to try to get to classes I think Yes well I, I certainly in this parish, I cannot see how people couldn't manage to get to classes If they really wanted to if they wanted to, yes. And the s frankly er I think the same as er er the comment on where our talents lie. If anybody has a talent, then they should offer it. You can't go around pushing people to do things that they don't want to do. If they offer then that's fine. I'm afraid you'll find that a volunteer force is much better than a pressed one. I think each group works on their own behalf, don't they, to encourage others to join their group? Do you Yes think that person would, would be or not? I'd be much more impressed by some positive suggestions of what we might do cos I th you know, months ago I was browbeaten outside church over a lot of similar issues and I said then, you know I think the comment about the is quite extraordinary actually. But nothing ever positive, nothing ever positive, is ever said. It's always destructive and critical. Couple of points though about this erm, how the parish council is recognized within the organization because it's important and that did our day as well and, I suppose in a way it's the one, one or so positive things out of this that we kind of latch on to, that the communication part is important and erm there may be others that feel the same way that we're not actually communicating what it is that we're doing, so, so maybe And what they're meant to do for us. we can look at involvement with the organizations. I mean, you can do that in various ways, by inviting them all to come along, you know, have a Saturday down at , invite them to come along as representatives of the organizations and talk with the parish council suggest a surgery Whatever it might be. When I first asked wh how many replies we'd had er I was quite pleased that we haven't had many because it, it shows that people read it, or may not have read it those, those read it thought yes, this is, this is, I've got nothing to object to, nothing to er to write and complain about, or nothing to take issue with, so anyway I, I find that encouraging. Do you think we ought to make our mission more erm, we ought to have a mission the parish council Like why we're here? Well, there's something similar to that on the poster, isn't there, that we do Yes, but I think there is something to be said for communicating this in a different way. I don't think, I mean, it's probably to say as we are ourselves struggling, for example with the issue of general welcoming. I mean th I, I, I feel that's actually quite crucial I actually think we shouldn't take too much notice of the letter. I don't No, no but I mean,th there're so many issues that we are trying to get to grips with we have to actually communicate it to people and say well this is But it's how to do it that's the problem. Yes Yeah Yeah But I don't think we ought to be too dismayed about one letter like this. I'd agree Yeah, but I do think there are some Yes, there are some issues there, yes I think a point that comes over very much is the one about the structure and when I talk to people and listen to what they say, they're still in the very traditional which I must say I certainly in that a parish council is it, and everybody else is linked in at lower levels. Now this is people's traditional expectation and they still have it, whereas we're of the mind that instead of this er you've very cleverly got in this circle and the last day that I suddenly realized that we're all equal and moving around in a reasonably organized manner but still we're rather loose, whereas the traditional view is a parish councillor says it and everybody does the rest, with a few er renegades and revolutionaries at varying parts in your parish. Now, we have to get over to people this changed idea, and it hasn't been got over because nobody that I've listened to, or talked to, knows, in fact people say, what does the parish council do? I never hear anything about them. So, first of all, the method of dealing with things in such a changed manner has to be put over to people and I think the links, which were traditional, which no longer apply, have to be and it must be a link going out in directions like this. Now, you can have it by the written word and the spoken word, but I think the links we must continually have all the time are personal links, talking to people. It's no good us saying oh well, nobody writes about that article, because a vast majority of people, that's all they know about it, if they've read that article at all, and not everybody reads the parish magazine. You stand a better chance if you put something with the Sunday and even then that might not be completely enough to reach down to the crevices, but I think some method, and that's why I suggested surgeries actually, was that we have to talk regularly to people face to face and once you're in a room with people then it goes, doesn't it? And we can find out all sorts of things. We can find out far easier what is really required, and they can begin to realize that we're not just a set of photographs at back of church with names underneath, that we're actually person who are thinking of speaking . The links are, to my mind, not close enough, and they're not the right type of thing for this changed situation which we've got. That's the feelings I get. Cos if people won't read the parish magazine, then I don't think they'll come along to the Well, I I wouldn't subscribe to that. I think because people are n sorry, sorry, people are notoriously hesitant at coming forward. We're the exceptions. I say that without hesitation. We're willing to come forward and talk and try and do things. The vast majority of people, if you've run any organization of any type, you will know very well people need leading, er and it's not a matter of brainwashing, it's explaining what is available, what are the possible goals. Now people will listen to you and they'll have had, had their own personal goals but they feel not worthy of expressing it anyway because they think, well I've had this idea, I'm probably up the creek, and they never say anything. But then they suddenly listen to what you say and they think, well that's funny, I was thinking about that when I was saying my prayers the other day. I thought that too. So I'm always reaching down to people, and I don't mean down as being inferior, reaching out to people is a better phrase, and I, I never give up about people wanting to partake. If you're in an organization and you're leader, you, you have to encourage them. With certain organizations you've got to get a whip out occasionally, but this is not that type of situation. But i you have, I'm sure to go to people and not be at all surprised if some people you can never raise the enthusiasm, because that's human nature, and you accept human nature as it is, but if you're positive and encourage and lead without being coercive to a high degree, I think you get more responses. I'm glad you've made reference actually to that picture of the circles because I, I erm I came up with that after we'd had the parish day and i you know, observing who was there on the parish day and then trying to see how, how we reach people and, and, and who were missing and how important was it that everybody should be there on parish day, and wasn't it that people who are involved should be there on parish day because that's a point at which erm you know parish council can meet those very people. Erm, I would be happy, I mean, I purposely, I put some lines in just because I was thinking that way at the time, but I'd be very happy if other people would scribble it out, change it, throw it back at me, you know, I would like to see I suppose, just to see if we can erm, if that, because, because I have to say that although you know part of reading 's letter, erm, I feel it's, it, it feels destructive and it feels very critical. That's right. And it feel like it's telling us we're not, we're not doing anything right. At the same time I think others, or the points she raises, erm, you know are good points and I don't think that we should just my personal feeling is that we shouldn't just shelve it. I'm sure she's not the only person who feels like this. I think I feel like it myself in fact. A lot of the points she raises I would raise myself, I would see as areas that we, we can be tackling, but how we tackle them, you know, I, I, again, I would endorse what said erm, we'll go back to and say right, now, you've highlighted some issues, now, how do we do it in practice? And we actually tackle it. But I'm not sure that that is the right response. I think that is one of the problems. We are still feeling our way ourselves and I think that's very important and I think it's, there's er actually, I have to say er I detect in 's letter because I am quite sure that a year ago she would have questioned the parish council's existence, and indeed she's being, erm, to my perception, highly critical of er the fact that the parish council has even dared to sort of taste the oxygen outside their own homes. And, and I think what is actually happening at the moment in, in the parish is that there is some perception, there is a perception, that something is, that things are changing and that the parish council is of importance. Did you say starting, you did say starting? I did, but possibly too strong a word, but certainly I think erm, I think the struggle in the last couple of years with regard to the parish council, has been to, to actually introduce it to people's perception as of anything but importance. And I, I actually tend to subscribe to the view, you know, that if we did have a surgery in it would be a non-event. And certainly it would have been, it would have been in the past. I think it would only become an event if parish councils do something which people took exception to and say that it's But I mean There're always people that'll criticize though, aren't there? But there are ve but Yes. there are very few people that will actually come along and say, well done. Yes. But you don't expect that. Well, no, no you don't expect it but that's a fact of life. It's a fact of life, yes One of the, one of the things that I mean the is cards. Now these are, cards are typed right going on to the sub-committee. Now if the parish council had said look, we're going to use these, people would actually say why should we, and I think that's a debate. You know, it is something very specific. But I do actually, I do actually think it's fair enough to say that the parish council can be, and should be, more clear, more direct in telling people what it's doing. And I think it can afford to be now, because I don't, I don't agree with you . The parish council has not been here as long as the parish. It's not been It's not been as far as the parish is concerned Not ours, no. But this is a traditional thing which is happening Well, I traditionally in most Catholic parishes, the only person who's it, is the priest. The priest yes But where they've gone on to have parish councils, you've had the typical triangular structure and when I talk to people and listen to what they say, they, they don't express it to me as such, but the felling you get over is that's the sort of structure they're used to, because the structure of the church is built in anyway, and the whole structure of the church This is only a reflection of larger areas of the church above, that's if I may use that phrase, which is happening. Not necessarily the but certainly from below the top it's happening all over the world, it's, it's er upsetting everybody, they don't know whether they're coming or going. It's certainly down to our level. What of course you're saying here, it comes out here in 's letter, er, the structure, because er you said earlier that you realize now that we're looking, we're filling in the, in the gaps if you like of the local organizations. Well, you see, here's a typical example here of the way is thinking she says, could there have been er could there not be more contact and cooperation er, if I am in a group providing music, which she is, there's every chance that the readers will have no knowledge of our intentions prior to our arriving in church, but why don't the music people tell ? That was one of my thoughts, where's the cooperation in that? Well, who's going to say that? Where's the communication? Well, somebody did say it I thought it would be, you know it would only Either, either, either, either the parish council can say it in any form that they wish, or they can instruct me to say it. Well, I think the point is And if it's for the parish council, I'm very happy to do so. Yeah, that's right. But the point is that if, if musicians go to service, they know there's enough readers and if the musicians decide to take on part of that reading one service, surely it's only courtesy for the musicians to say to the readers, whose lists are published months in advance, terribly sorry but we're gonna do this this time, and do you mind stepping down? I mean that's, that's only courtesy. It's commonsense Yeah but I must admit it's up to each person that organizes it to say that, great, we don't need the collectors. And somebody said to me at the last children's mass, thank you, you're the only one that tells us we're not needed. This is the regular men who do the collecting. So, yes, I think it sounds commonsense but No, no But it's not our job to people, is it? No, I'm not The men collect it and know that of the children doing it, you would think that they'd have noticed over the years, that at the end of each month it says, on the readers' list it says children and I think that Some things are taken as read and they're not actually said. I think it I must say when I read that in 's letter, I didn't read that specific erm comment, I read something, something much much wider really, that, that really I felt that what she was saying was you know that when, when there is a group, then readers er musicians, everybody else reflect together and come together before they actually, you know, they don't all operate the same but they come together and they reflect together on what the, the theme is, or you know, what was the main point of the readings. Erm I, I somehow felt that that's what she was feeling that there was something like that lacking. Erm Well, we recognized that two three years ago but it hasn't been filled yet So we're aware that there is a gap, yes Is it not something that erm the literature group coming out of the erm the course have begun to tackle, you know, the idea that there should be some kind of coordinating personal body or something that erm er has agreed, as a result of those new meetings, to coordinate music, and that means again filling gaps. Oh, I see. Erm But she's not a committee on her own is she? She's not, no. She's one person. Yes, yes, but I mean one person can very often do things Better than, yes better than others Anyway, we're going to talk about coordinating readers and musicians so they can double do it if they wish. You know, as not I see It may well be that they're doing it, with er other ways of doing it and er that's, that's discussion, but I do actually think that there is sometimes something to be said, and I think a group can say it more easily than individual, is if you want something done, do it, but don't come along and complain. You know, and I feel, I do feel very angry, I mean th th the family that she's referring to who can't, who have difficulty hav getting transport for Sunday morning, they're not parishioners, but are actually in the parish, and they know perfectly well that if they ask they will get transport, and indeed in the past they have asked, and they have got transport. You know, I mean people play funny buggers here, and excuse my language and I, I mean, we could all go along and say what we want and what our needs are but that's not what we're talking about. That's not what parish councils about either, is it? That's what a parish is about. There are times when people are in need, and that's fine, but the problem in this parish is not the people in need not being supplied, the problem is that people are, are simply receiving what they wish to receive and not actually making very much contribution. Now, we may well argue, we're supposed to encourage them, we've actually got to make them, create the conditions in which people are encouraged to come forward and take part. how to get on to the parish council the other day so I thought was quite formative step yes Yes People are recognizing us you did touch earlier on about welcoming which is at the forefront of my mind all the time. Er, I mustn't be guilty of commercials but in the last council meeting of the night, again the subject came up of how we could welcome people coming to mass and this is nothing to do with a request council at all and er we ended up, and I think it's fair to say what we decided er here, that people would individually they didn't know approach them. Er, I thought personally that was a bit too but I'm forever trying to organize Well, no, it is a start. did it a year ago Yes and it lasted about a week I know not everybody thinks this is the, what welcoming is about, but be aware that somebody in the parish knows also of the problem and they themselves are trying to feel their way forward to er some s partial solution. It's, it's just a thing I thought I'd mention here. You know, this is what I would expect every group in the parish to do, to tackle areas where I think it could be organized easily Yes And this may well be something which we should be saying to the priest Yes, yes to the parish, organization you know you are You know, I think it's very interesting th that you know that has raised this point that you know why couldn't the parish council come to us? You know, because I think we as parish council would have thought that we were interfering if we suggested that we should go to observe somebody's group meeting. You know, that's, that's something that we've been very careful about. We've been very careful not to be seen to be interfering or for anybody to think that we were going to tell groups how they would run their groups, because the groups are fairly autonomous and they pre-existed parish councils er, but a you know this is almost a direct invitation and we could actually respond to this in terms of an invitation and ask other groups if they would be interested in our respon in our going to, to visit them, rather than a surgery where maybe we'd sit here and nobody would turn up. Erm, you know, that we, that we've been invited to reach out and why not respond? Yes, that that's a good way of doing it. I think that's an excellent suggestion. It is, yes. And to er voice our own concerns which obviously coincide with parish organizations So how do we, how do we tackle that? Is that something that the logistics of it is worked out in and then but, but everybody takes part in it, the whole parish council somehow takes part in it? Would anybody have er an objection to taking part in an activity? I think , if we do, we would need to properly structure how we what our objective was, are we just explaining what parish council is about, offering to listen The item or the issue for discussion this afternoon is Is there a need for an A fifty nine, A sixty one, Harrogate relief road? . Er and I have to remind you that the panel has to be concerned primarily with the need. Erm but we'll see how you go in presenting your cases. But I don't really want you to stray into detail which is not necessarily within our remit to er to consider. I propose that Mr will make the opening statement and then I'll turn to Mr and then Mr are you speaking on behalf of the Residents' Association? Thank you. Er and then if you will come in after Mr . I might say that the members of the panel have actually read all your submissions, so don't feel obliged to go through them word for word in the same way as for example, you might be presenting a proof at a planning enquiry. I want really if if if if you would, to point up the major issues, the major points as you see them. Mr sorry Mr ? Right er thank you sir. Perhaps if I start by saying that er I have er produced a one page summary which wasn't with my er initial statements, which I passed to Mr and to Mr , but if I could er pass copies of that to yourself and to the panel. Wh whilst that's being done, can I just add that don't feel inhibited ab I want you to make your best case, but I mean you know, if if you can make it in five minutes instead of half an hour then nothing will be lost in that. And the other thing is that once we actually get into the discussion session, if you want to ask a question or make a point, then if you just put your name board up on end then I c I'll see whether you want you know, who wants to speak. And would you also please make sure you give your name at the time you speak and who you represent because the the the matter is being recorded and we want to make sure we know who has said what at what time. Mr . Right thank you. Perhaps sir if I just just refer to er it's about a page if read out the er the the summary of my statement. Since the decision of the County Council in March nineteen eighty one, to promote a Harrogate and Knaresborough southern bypass, the Council have investigated ways of improving the flow of traffic through the two communities. Initially the Council investigated traffic management measures to complement the southern bypass. Er improvement schemes and measures were identified and have been implemented over a period of time. There are still others yet to to complete. The Council however concluded that the scope for improving traffic flows in the two communities, even with a southern bypass, was limited. And the solution lay in the provision of further relief roads. Route options for relief roads to the west of Harrogate and to the north of Harrogate and Knaresborough, were assessed. Public consultation on the need for A sixty one and A fifty nine relief roads, and on specific routes, has been undertaken. These showed substantial public support for the need for the relief roads, and the preferred routes which have subsequently been selected. The A fifty nine and A sixty one both for part of the primary network which is a national network designated by the Department of Transport for the movement of long distance traffic, including the movement of heavy commercial vehicles. In recognition of the problems caused as a result of these routes passing through the urban areas of Harrogate and Knaresborough, the County Council has designated both roads as key routes for improvement in both the structure plan and the T P P which is the Transport Policy and Programs document of the County Council. Traffic flows on both routes are in excess of twenty thousand vehicles a day, giving rise to severe problems of congestion at peak times, a high degree of severance of both communities, and major road safety problems. The northern relief road would reduce traffic flows by between twenty and thirty percent on the A fifty nine through Harrogate and Knaresborough. The western relief road would reduce traffic flows on the A sixty one by thirty percent to the north and south of the town centre. Measures to increase further the transfer of traffic to the relief roads will be investigated as scheme design progresses. There will be substantial road safety benefits as a result of the transfer of traffic to the relief roads with anticipated savings of twenty nine injury accidents per a per annum on the A fifty nine and seventeen per annum on the A sixty one. The relief roads both offer substantial savings in journey times and together with the road safety benefits, represent and excellent rate of return as measured by the Department of Transport's eco economic assessment program . It is accepted that there will be environmental costs as a result of the construction of the relief roads and these have been the subject of extensive investigations. These costs have been weighed against the environmental, traffic, road safety and economic benefits of the scheme using the Department of Transport's manual of environmental appraisal for public consultation. Based on these assessments, the proposals have the support of not only the County Council and the Borough Council, but also the general public. Both relief roads have been included as a firm commitment in the County Council's forward capital program, with a planned start of construction for the northern relief road and Killinghall bypass in nineteen ninety eight. And the western relief road in the year two thousand. The individual schemes will need to be taken through the statutory planning process which will give the opportunity for further debate on the details of the route, construction standards and landscaping measures. Thank you Mr . Mr ? Thank you sir. Er I'd like to make two statements if if I may, it's easier for me. The first one on behalf of Parish Council and then the second one on behalf of Residents' Association. First of all for Parish Council. Taken in conjunction the written statement and the key diagram indicate an intention to construct an A fifty nine relief road, passing to the north of Harrogate and Knaresborough. The Parish Council refer to this as an outer northern relief road. The specific route being investigated by the County Council is a modification of the blue route put forward in a consultation exercise at the beginning of nineteen seventy nine. The Parish Council do not consider that there is any alternative outer northern route which would produce a significantly better balance of costs and benefits. Taking the blue route as an example, an outer northern route would achieve limited traffic benefits on the A fifty nine and A six six one. The figures produced by the County Surveyor in a September nineteen ninety one committee report, show anticipated traffic changes at six points on these roads as they pass through Harrogate and Knaresborough. These are reductions of seventeen percent, nineteen percent, twenty eight percent, twenty three percent, ten percent and thirteen percent. Reductions of this scale are unlikely to bring significant environmental benefit. The County Council's own environmental consultants reported that outer northern routes passed through a mixture of urban fringe landscape north of Harrogate, and some of the highest quality countryside around the two towns, along the Nidd Gorge. The impact of the routes on the wider landscape is emphasized as for western routes, by varying landforms exposing many distant views. There would appear to by no unobtrusive way of crossing the River Nidd. O M two, subsequently to become the blue route, offers a less damaging solution than O M one which would cut through the heart of the Nidd Gorge, creating a major environmental conflict. As with the western routes, few properties would be directly affected by routes. Intrusion would be a more general lessening of landscape quality over a wide area. The parish council are broadly in agreement with the consultants findings, The parish council do not consider that the calculated economic benefit of an outer northern route, outweighs the net environmental harm. It is recognized that the construction of an outer northern route was favoured by the respondents to an nineteen ninety one consultation exercise. However such an exercise should not outweigh the main planning issues. In addition, the leaflet on which the public response was based, did not adequately highlight the difference in effectiveness between an outer northern route and the other routes on which views were sought. At an early stage the County Council rejected all the inner northern routes, despite the recommendation of the County Surveyor and the County Planning Officer, I have at this point said that the Harrogate Borough Council erm h had also recommended that the inner northern routes be retained for investigation. I said that in my summary. Erm I now accept that that was a misreading of Harrogate District Council's resolution which was rather more ambiguous than I have represented it here. An inner northern route would have been about twice as successful in relieving traffic on existing roads and would have produced fifty five percent more economic benefits. The County Council's environmental consultants had said of the inner northern routes, rather than damaging an irrepr irreplaceable sensitive landscape as could happen with the other routes, the inner northern route could be seen as a means of improving the landscape. In the light of the advice from their own officers and consultants, the Council decision to reject all inner northern routes, throws doubt on the decision making process which led them to support an outer northern route. There has been no technical report which attempts to weigh the economic and environmental costs and benefits of the various options and certainly no technical report which concluded by recommending in favour of an outer northern route. The Parish Council consider that it would be unsafe and unwise to afford an outer northern route the degree of commitment which would be implied by its inclusion in the structure plan. Accordingly, the Parish Council requests the panel to recommend that policy T seven and the key diagram be amended to exclude the provision of an A fifty nine relief road to the north of Knaresborough. I'll now go on with my statement for panel residents. Yes please. Thank you. Taken in conjunction with the written statement and key diagram,tak taken in conjunction the re the written statement and key diagram indicate an intention to construct an A sixty one relief road to the west of Harrogate. The County Council have investigated several routes to the west of Harrogate. According to the County Council's published figures, the most successful of these would only succeed in releasing reducing traffic flows on the A sixty one by thirty one percent. A reduction of this scale would be likely to achieve only slight environmental relief. The scale of relief that would actually be achieved by a western route is queried on a number of grounds. If these doubts are justified, the eventual scale of relief may be even less than the slight relief implied by the County Council's projection. The County Council's environmental consultants reported that western routes pass through some of the most attractive countryside around Harrogate. The ridge and valley nature of the landform to the west of Harrogate would make all routes difficult to integrate visually. All the routes would therefore be prominent in the landscape creating a lesser or greater degree of visual intrusion across a wide area. In time, with large scale mounding and excess extensive planting, routes could be integrated to a certain extent, but where valleys are crossed at right angles by bridges or embankments, the visual result will always be alien to the landscape. It is the ridge and valley nature of the landform around Harrogate that the draft local plan considers so important to maintain because of its contribution to the special landscape character of Harrogate. The Residents' Association are broadly in agreement with these findings, however they consider that the western routes have other environmental disadvantages which are detailed in my full statement and its appendices. The Residents' Association do not consider that the calculated economic benefit of a western relief road outweighs the net environmental harm. It is recognized that the construction of a western relief road was favoured by the respondents to a nineteen ninety one consultation exercise. However such an exercise should not outweigh the main planning issues. The consultation leaflet was slanted in a way er which moved the response towards support for the proposed relief roads. Moreover it is unlikely that respondents would have either the time or experience to make a thorough appraisal of the information presented in the leaflet. In particular most people will be unused to the assessing the impact of percentage changes in traffic on existing roads or of weighing them against the environmental costs of the new road. Er I would also point out that erm even though there was a respectable response to the public consultation exercise, I think the number of respondents in total only represented something like seventeen percent of the number of households in the Harrogate and Knaresborough area. When the County Planning Committee considered the western relief road on the third of March nineteen ninety two, they resolved that a western relief road for Harrogate was environmentally unacceptable, that the Harrogate and Knaresborough southern bypass used in conjunction with the proposed A one motorway should be seen as the preferred route for north bound traffic originating to the south of Harrogate, and that the ultimate selection and implementation of a relief road for Harrogate and Knaresborough should be part of a package of measures for solving the problem of urban congestion and improving the quality of the urban environment. The committee's subsequent decision to include policy T seven in the structure plan, appears to have been taken without debate and without formal recognition that it's inclusion conflicted with their earlier er decision. Er the Residents' Association erm feel that this examination in public is not the right forum to erm answer a question which has never properly been asked erm at the County Council. Erm and and they do not consider that the full testing and evaluation erm o of the environmental harm as against the claimed highway benefit, has properly taken place. The association er also consider that it would be unsafe and unwise to afford er a relief road a western relief road, the degree of commitment which would be implied by its inclusion in the structure plan. According they request the panel to recommend that policy T seven and the key diagram be amended to exclude the provision of an A sixty one relief road to the west of Harrogate. Thank you. Thank you Mr . Mr I'll I'll be as brief as I can because some of the ground I'll be covering will be the same as Mr 's. Erm first of all the one we would er make is the question of the need for it as a bypass or as a through traffic route. The southern bypass and the A fifty nine link to the A one already supply that, as recommended in fact by the County Planning Committee to the Highways and Transport Committee in May ninety two. And we've brought additional evidence to support that today. Not forsaking that, even if we have a subsequent northern relief road, there would be a second choice for them to use the A sixty one continuing to Ripon. It would also be our contention that there should not be an attempt to direct traffic er in a northerly direction onto the A sixty one itself, beyond Killinghall because it is a particularly hazardous road with considerable bends on and I would be inclined to think it was far safer to direct them to the A one via the A fifty nine and southern bypass. And make them journey from Killinghall towards Ripon. The N Y C C in their assessment do not we believe have taken into account the severe environmental damage which any western relief road would impose on the landscape. And I hope we can come into that . On the question of the figures, we have some doubts of the assessments made which were done prior of course to the actual opening of the southern bypass and therefore what would happen when it did happen. Er thirdly we believe that if in fact this western relief opens, there will be considerably more pressure on some of the existing roads which are not designed to take it, particularly the B six one six two. Which would in fact join this er western relief road and which is already heavily congested, it's the main part of one of our presentations to you. Or the environmental damage . There does not appear to have been an account taken of the of the factors that may reduce traffic on the A sixty one er and ways of ameliorating the current problems on the road which are not just a question of the volumes, but in fact the timescale it takes in fact to clear that road in the mornings. And we're really primarily talking of the morning problems or the e the evening problems. And as far as we know there's no been no account been taken that er the subsequent development that is likely to take place on any of these roads, which is clearly implied in some of that statements, of the consequent traffic that that would generate in itself. And there appears appears to be no evidence of er these figures in their in their presentation. Er that concludes ours at this moment Mr . Thank you Mr . Mr , do you want to say anything at this stage ? Yes just er just a few brief words chairman. David , Harrogate Borough Council. Erm I think if I could start by explaining the Borough Council's position on this matter and that's that the Borough Council is committed to the concept of an orbital road system around Harrogate and Knaresborough and that should be as part of a balanced transportation package for the area. Notwithstanding that position, the Council clearly had a number of reservations about the design, alignment and environmental impact of of a western relief road and we've asked the County Council to pursue its proposals for a western relief road on the basis of a single carriageway all-purpose road, and to give further consideration to ways in which environmental concerns can be ameliorated. We feel that er the A fifty nine A sixty one Harrogate relief road schemes are properly included in the structure plan alteration, as they do accord with the advice contained in P P G's twelve and and draft P P G thirteen. And the Borough Council considers that the need for the new roads has been fully justified as set out in the County Council's assessment. The Borough Council's case on the needs issue can be summarized by erm the following points. Firstly erm there is significant traffic and environmental problems er being experienced along the A fifty nine and the A sixty one routes in Harrogate and Knaresborough. These high volumes of traffic pass through densely built up areas often of high environmental quality and this results in congestion, delay and road safety problems. Importantly they also adversely affect levels of amenity in both residential and commercial areas. The scope of tackling these problems, along the existing routes is extremely limited due to physical and and environmental constraints. Particularly the existence of conservation areas, listed buildings and the impositions of the stray act. And the Borough Council as agents for the County Council has done what they can to to offset problems and the scope for further measures is limited. We feel that the prospect is for for worsening conditions, particularly in view of the level of traffic growth predicted. The real solution therefore is to constri construct an orbital relief road system so as to reduce traffic flows in the towns and to provide scope for implementation of a balanced package of transportation measures within the urban area. And finally erm I'd like to emphasize that the case for relief roads in in and around Harrogate and Knaresborough is not development led. Nor is it the case that large scale development will inevitably follow erm construction of those roads. Simply that erm the new roads will remove the constraint of erm access, poor access from sites which may otherwise be suitable for development in in planning terms. Thank you chairman. Thank you. Mr , just a just a general point. Er in your fuller statement you talk about the A fifty nine as being the only major trans-Pennine route to North Yorkshire. I think to a certain extent that might be literally true, but the northern part of the county, you've got linkages into the A sixty six haven't you, Scotch Corner and to the west and you've also got linkages here into the Wharfe Valley and up through to Skipton again and further south you can link into the M sixty two can't you, as trans-pennine . How do you see the A fifty nine functioning as a strategic erm east west route across the county. For example linking York, Harrogate and beyond? Well in terms of er in terms of that particular corridor, clearly that is the the major er route across the county between York, across to Scarborough on the east coast, York, Harrogate and across to Lancashire. Er clearly there are other routes further south but er er in terms of traffic er going to and from east west axis in in North Yorkshire, that is the er major route. Erm the emphasis really on that has been highlighted in the Department of Transport's own recent consultation document earlier this year where they looked at er trans-pennine routes right from from Derbyshire up to the er the A sixty six er looking at ways to relieve the pressure on the M sixty two where traffic flows have been in have increased dramatically over the last few years. There are already proposals er to widen sections of the M sixty two to four lanes. Er the Department's consultants identified that that wouldn't be sufficient to cope with traffic flows on the M sixty two er and indeed suggested as as an option er that traffic a new a new route could be created er along from the M sixty five at , the A fifty six and A fifty nine to Skipton, er and then pointed a red arrow in the direction of the A fifty nine across to the A one. And further further discussions of with them have er has b it's clear that that is er or the proposal improvement of the A fifty nine. Now the County Council is concerned about that in terms of a major improvement of the A fifty nine, er from an environmental point of view particularly through the national park. Yeah. So the A fifty nine well let me put it let me put another question, does the A sixty one serve a similar function to the A fifty nine? If by definition of what you've said, the A fifty nine is a major cross county link, does the A sixty one serve the same function? Well clearly it serves a different function from the from the A fifty nine erm in terms of er its role, then er it is a different role, I would accept that in that there are other parallel routes er more closely at hand, clearly the A one which is to be improved to to motorway standard. Er so it is a different role than the A fifty nine, it is a different er competing routes if you like, but nevertheless it's still a key er l strategic link in the County Council's or in the North Yorkshire's highway network and has been identified as such, both in the structure plan er and also in er the transport policies and program document which is reviewed annually by the County Council. Er it is it has got problems as has already been referred to earlier in that it has a very poor accident record as well as well as passing through Harrogate, it has a a poor accident record to the north of Harrogate. Er we would like to see that improved, indeed part of the proposals for er these schemes before us today, we have taken the opportunity for Killinghall of extending that original close in bypass to bypass sections indeed some of the poorest sections of the A sixty one, to the north of Killinghall where we have a very bad accident record, those will be bypassed by the continuation of this scheme north of Killinghall. Er we're just recently started the construction of the Ripon bypass which is the other er problem on the A sixty one on in North Yorkshire. So completion of this scheme, the western relief road would complete er the improvements, together with improvements between Killinghall and er and Ripon w would improve complete the improvance of the A sixty one as a key strategic in the County's network Yes. to complement the A one. Can for the purpose of continuing the discussion, can we concentrate I think on the A fifty nine corr otherwise we shall get slightly cross threaded here. Can we concentrate on the A fifty nine? Can I ask if everyone sitting around the table has now or has had access to plan policy guidance note number twelve? Yes. A copy is coming at the relevant bit er for those who don't have it. I should say that the markings on the copy you're receiving are mine, they were not made in the context of this discussion. The reason I draw attention to this guidance is that it draws what I think is a crucial distinction for our purposes here today, between the need to assess at the structure plan level the need for a road proposal and in paragraph five thirty one, a clear statement there that consideration of environmental impacts in relation to where the road goes, is a matter for the local plan. That said, I appreciate the force of the points Mr has been making. Can I ask Mr , leaving aside the question of where it is, do you accept that there is a need for an improvement of the A fifty nine? Yes. I'm sorry I have to ask you to say who you are before you speak. Oh sorry. Otherwise our records will get a bit confused. George . The answer to your question is, yes I do accept that there is a need for an improvement to A fifty nine. Do you think that improvement could be made along the line of the existing road? No. Thank you. May I expound on my answer? Er Don't don't feel constrained to yes or no. Right. This is your this is your big chance. I I think that er what has been known as an inner northern bypass, that is a road which passes between Harrogate and Knaresborough, could act as a very effective relief road for the A fifty nine. I believe it would meet the need which Mr has quite properly identified. The reason that Scotton Parish Council are opposed to a road of the type shown in the key diagram, is that they do not consider and I do not consider that a road in that position, going to the north of Knaresborough, could effectively meet that need to relieve the A fifty nine. Could I ask you why not? Certainly. Because there are two elements which make the A fifty nine through Harrogate and Knaresborough such a busy road, one is local traffic, either having a destination in Harrogate or Knaresborough, or going between various parts of Harrogate and Knaresborough. That's one component. The other component is genuinely bypassable traffic which has both its origin and destination outside the Harrogate and Knaresborough area. Now that genuinely bypassable traffic is a minority of the total traffic on the A fifty nine system. If you build a relief road which is fairly tightly in to the built up area, that relief road will cater for both the long distance bypassable traffic and the local traffic. This was shown in the County Council's own analyses in nineteen ninety and nineteen ninety one which showed that an inner northern bypass would be very successful. Er in relieving er existing congestion on the A fifty nine. If one built a road a lot further out which is the case with the road shown in the structure plan key diagram, use of that road would represent a major diversion for local traffic, which would therefore be much less likely to use it. And again this isn't my opinion, it is something that is demonstrated by the traffic predictions which have been produced by the County Council. They show that er an outer northern route, through Harrogate itself, on most stretches of road, would take less than twenty percent of traffic from the existing road. It is true that on other parts of the A fifty nine system, particularly through Knaresborough, er the new road the outer northern bypass could take closer to thirty percent off the existing A fifty nine, but the traffic flows on that part of the A fifty nine are very much lower, so there is much less need, much less environmental need for a bypass there er a relief road I should say, there in the first place. So in summary, I m in my view, the reason why an outer northern bypass is much less successful in relieving the A fifty nine, is that it would be unattractive to the local traffic. You mean local traffic that wishes to get into the centre of Harrogate or into Knaresborough. Local traffic I use the term local traffic to mean traffic that's coming outside from outside Harrogate and Knaresborough and having a destination anywhere in Harrogate and Knaresborough, traffic which has an origin in Harrogate and Knaresborough and is going to a destination outside or traffic which has an origin and destination within Harrogate and Knaresborough. I call all that sort of traffic, local traffic, and I think that the outer northern route is less well equipped to deal with those kinds of traffic. Thank you Mr . Mr can I come back to you and in light of what Mr has said, Mm. your A fifty nine relief road proposal pursues two functions doesn't it? One is to try and pick up bypassable traffic and take it away from Harrogate and Knaresborough. Traffic which is Yes that's correct. essentially going east west or west east It has no has no business in has no business in the urban area. And you also see the other function of the relief road as a means of distributing local traffic er around the fringe of Harrogate er and trying to push it onto other radials to get into the town centre. As part of In other words, distribute that traffic around the network. Now that element of traffic as I read your figures, is is quite a considerable proportion of the well you're talking about roughly twenty thousand P C Us a day? Well talked about in excess of twenty thousand vehicles a day on each of the two roads. Yes vehicles vehicles vehicles In excess of twenty thousand yes. Are you talking about vehicles or P C yes, we tend not to use P C Us as much as well a few years ago. Well well that just shows you . What is a vehicle then? Anyway doesn't matter. We're talking about in excess of twenty thousand vehicles so you've still got erm a considerable proportion, somewhere of the order of at least two thirds, which It depends which relief road we're talking about, but I think I would accept I mean I can accept the point that er Mr is making about er the relative er benefits in terms of traffic relief afforded by either an inner northern route or an outer northern route. And he's quite correct in pointing those out and I wouldn't disagree with him on on that score. Erm we and that's one reason why we've brought along the plan which shows the different traf traffic effects. Er of the on the northern route and on indeed the western route. Erm it is quite clear from that that because the inner routes er are much closer in er to the urban area, they do pick up more of the local movements between Harrogate and Knaresborough er than does the outer route. Yeah. Erm you know having said that, that clearly is is one factor, it's an important factor in assessing the schemes but it is one factor and a number of other things such as the impact clearly of the routes themselves. And the public response to those routes. Er now I I would expect, I don't know whether it's worth talking about the general principle that we're talking about different routes here and as i understand, the purpose today was to talk about the need for relief roads and I would expect at some future date, at a public enquiry when er I'm defending er the outer blue er the outer northern route, to defend why that was chosen as opposed to an inner northern route and not rely upon the key diagram in the structure plan and the stars that are shown on there. Er to be the to be the route. No. I'm try I'm I I I I'm trying to stay with need and purpose. Right. Right. But you have defined the route in a particular way on the key diagram, when there was an alternative way of defining it. And I think in the context of what P P G twelve says, it is right for this examination, to consider the proposal as you have presented it to us. And the need for that as opposed to the alternative. In that context, how does an outer northern relief road impact differently in terms of traffic relief on Knaresborough as opposed to an inner Northern relief road? Erm well the the the detailed figures are shown on the diagram there. I haven't presented those in my in my statements Sorry read those. No right well we'll have to go up and have a look at them. I mean if in terms of the statement in the structure plan, it is simply the policy doesn't relate to an outer northern relief road. Erm it's only the the reason it's on the diagram it it simply reflects the fact in fact w w w we were overtaken almost by events in terms of the structure plan policy in that the County Council had move on to t had undertaken public consultation, and it had determined a preferred route. Er and it was felt appropriate at the time that that should be indicated on the T the key diagram to be to be helpful more than nothing else. We have on most of our bypass schemes in fact a all the other bypass schemes shown on the key diagram simply show them by a star on the diagram. In fact the Ripon bypass is actually shown on the other s on the on the other side of Ripon the bypass is actually er located. So I don't think the stars on the diagram itself are as I see it are particularly important. I mean if it is helpful and Mr and I did have this discussion in the pre-meeting that we had, er certainly if you wish to recommend that the d that the stars on the the diagram were to be changed er just simply to show one star instead of a route, then I for one would be quite happy with that. If that satisfied Mr . It's simply the reason it was done that way was to reflect a County Council decision which had been taken fairly recent times on the route of an outer as opposed to an inner. But there's a lot if we were going to talk about the m relative merits of the inner and outer today, I think er there's quite a lot in addition to the er the traffic effects within Knaresborough which we would have to go into er er because I mean, in fact we've and that is why I didn't include in certainly in my statement, er any defence er in any great detail of choosing an outer route as opposed to an inner route. I'm quite happy to go into that, we have all the information here, we can do it but it would take some time I suspect. I think we have two alternatives. Either we pursue the need for the blue route as opposed to any other route to the north of Harrogate, or the County Council puts on record, I E in a letter to the panel, that it proposes to amend the key diagram. If it proposes to amend the key diagram such that it does not indicate that the County Council intends to construct a blue route, which is what the key diagram indicates to me at the moment, then the ball game becomes very different. But as the key diagram stands at the moment, because it goes north of Knaresborough in its indication of where the route proposal will be, I think if that i key diagram is to remain, it is right for the examination to consider what the need for that route is as opposed to a route or any other route which goes between Harrogate and Knaresborough. The choice is yours. The w the western is is shown by a single star It's described in the policy as A fifty nine, sixty one relief road I think the difference there is that we're talking about we're not talking inners and outers there, we're talking about or certainly in terms of the consultation that we've undertaken on the western route, it's been different variations of a western route, there isn't an equivalent of a of an inner route for the for the western side. Mm. Er and so the the dia the stars on the the diagram for the western relief road er aren't indicative of er of a particular line or particular option. Because here we have looked at four options for the western highway and th and those stars could indicate any of those four options so I think They could indeed but they do indicate a western relief road. Oh yes clearly yes. Excuse us one moment. Mr , you want to come in? Yes please sir. And do you want to come in Mr as well? shown over there that we haven't seen. Alright, just a minute, Mr first. Er the the interests of of my two clients are quite different erm and and it would be very helpful to me if the A fifty nine and A erm s sixty one could be treated separately. As far as Scotton Parish Council are concerned, I have confirmed my instructions from them and they would be more than satisfied if the County Council would agree to amend the key diagram to indicate er a n what is at present shown as a series of stars around the north of of Harrogate, by a single star, that would satisfy Scotton Parish Council. I believe the issues about the western road are different but but I can say that as far as the northern route is concerned, Scotton Parish Council would be more than happy if i the notation on the key diagram could be changed to a single star. Thank you for thank Mr , Mr can we leave your point on one side while while we address the A fifty nine. Mr do you want to have a ten minute break while you consider this question of whether you would be prepared to advise the panel that you would be a you would accept an amendment to the key diagram to show one star or what ever it is you have used on the key diagram to indicate A fifty nine relief road proposal? Yes I'd be grateful for that chairman if that could be arranged thank you. Yes we will come back at five to three. Have you have you been able to come to a conclusion about the A fifty nine? Yes chairman, that er we er would be prepared, the County Council would be prepared to put in a statement to the effect that er it would be w prepared to amend the key diagram to reflect a a single er star on the diagram er to reflect the A fifty nine relief road. Er similarly we feel it would be more appropriate if that were to be the case er perhaps should point out there are other schemes where we have shown a series of of lines stars on the key diagram, it's not just on the Harrogate. Er also there is at York. But er given the er the position in terms of there is a policy statement in the structure plan which refers to the A sixty one and A fifty nine relief roads, er if it's going to be helpful then e as well as the er A fifty nine, then it would be appropriate to show the western relief road rather than a series of er of arrows, to similarly show that I think we'd have to show that as two st two er stars or arrows rather than one because we would need to er indicate both to the north and south of the A fifty nine. But what I'd suggest is that we're actually er will prepare today, this afternoon, an amended version er of that diagram which we can then er er pass to Mr and Mr for comment. Can you Beg you pardon Can you refer me to the part of the key diagram which shows the scheme for York to which you referred a moment ago? It's the existing approved er structure plan which shows Ah. York and in fact the southern bypass for Harrogate and Knaresborough was shown in that fashion. York from the one I'm looking at is a series of triangles. Yes. That's correct yeah. As does Harrogate Knaresborough southern bypass. That's right yes. It's the same way that we've shown the northern and western in the alteration. I don't therefore understand what you're saying about the single star. Single triangle rather than star . Single triangle. It seems to me that the indication you have given on the key diagram to alteration number three for Harrogate Knaresborough is exactly the same as for example the indication given for York and for Harrogate Knaresborough southern on the approved key diagram. What's the change you're offering? Well it was to be helpful to the er to Mr and Scotton Parish Council that what what I was saying was, we weren't relying on the key diagram to justify at some future date, it being an outer northern relief road, that decision would have to be defended at future enquiry. If it's to be helpful if if Mr is saying on behalf of the Parish Council that by showing it in this way on the key diagram, he feels is prejudicing or the Parish Council's position is prejudiced at some future date, then it's to be helpful to that that the County Council is saying it is prepared to show it simply as a an arrow and similarly for consistency it would seem to make sense to show the western in the same fashion. Can can we stick just with the A fifty nine for the time being? Er you would indicate somewhere in the Harrogate Knaresborough are on the key diagram, a solid black triangle to illustrate an A fifty nine Harrogate Knaresborough relief road? That's correct. There would be I think in total there would be three black arrows. Er one between the A sixty one and the A fifty nine to the to the east of the A sixty one. This is where the difficulty when we have A sixty north and south and A fifty nine east and west. But between the A sixty one erm running north of Harrogate Mm is that the Killinghall section? The Killinghall section. Between there and the A fifty nine to the east, we would have one single er arrow or triangle and then we would have another arrow or triangle between the A sixty one and the A fifty nine to the west of Harrogate and similarly another arrow between the A fifty nine and the A sixty one south of the A fifty nine, down to A sixty one south of Harrogate. C can we s sorry to keep coming back to this one but I want to leave the A sixty one for the time being. Erm what we would like and I'm taking you at taking your statement er as you made it. Er with regard to the A fifty nine and the representation with a single black triangle somewhere in the northern vicinity of Harrogate, Knaresborough, somewhere in that vicinity on the key Yes. diagram. Er we could you let us have a letter to that effect, address it to the panel secretary and really as soon as possible. Certainly sir. Tomorrow morning. Can I be sure that I'm interpreting this correctly. In saying that the County Council is not committed to a road which goes north or Knaresborough. No no I we're not saying that at all, that's a different proposition entirely er certainly the County Council is at this moment in time committed to an outer northern relief road, I don't think there's any question of that. Er what we as I was putting was suggesting was in terms of the key diagram and the structure plan we would show it as a single arrow. And we would defend that er er de or we would debate that as I understand it as where it should be debated at er the next stage of the planning process which will be an enquiry into a a planning application. And that this structure plan was merely indicating the policy of building a relief road and the key diagram was merely indicative as as I understand that is its purpose, not to show routes, but indicative of a location whereabouts in the County is this does this polic policy relate to. And that's what we are we will be relying upon with er with this change. I think the general feeling of the panel is that if you are committed to a route north of Knaresborough, then we think it's sufficiently a enough a strategic matter for us to continue the discussion on on it. Its functions would be different its nee therefore the need for it would be different. As I understood er Mr 's position, he would have been on behalf of the Parish Council who are the only er people who are concerned about this as I understand, who raised an objection at this er at this stage they they would have been quite happy with the proposition that I've put forward on behalf of the County Council. Mr your comment please. George . The reason the Parish Council objected to the structure plan was that they considered that the structure plan itself was beginning to represent a statutory commitment a statutory commitment to a road to the north of Knaresborough. Now if Mr is saying that outside the context of the structure plan entirely which is all I took him to be saying, that the members of North Yorkshire County Council are still determined to build a road to the north of of erm Knaresborough. of Knaresborough, that that doesn't seem to be a a a matter that concerns the structure plan greatly because there are County Council elections, there are new County Councils, the reason I am here today is to avoid any sort of statutory commitment in the structure plan. And that's what I want to avoid today and that's my sole objective. My question was to Mr was designed to throw light on that point. And the answer was the County Council is committed or not prepared to be uncommitted to a road north of Knaresborough. It seems to me there is a tenable argument which says that whether the road the relief road is north or south of Knaresborough, is a strategic matter. wouldn't indicate that would it er so the A fifty nine relief that the structure plan policy is indicating. There are various ways about that as there are with many road schemes er where there are structure plan policies for a particular scheme and there are arrows on key diagrams, there are many ways of getting from A to B er they are not er in terms of outer and inner, they are going from the same A to B. They they start and finish at the same locations, it is just a different way of getting from A to B. Which quite properly as I understand it would be a matter for debate er either at the local plan or if a planning application is made er earlier than that er then at a at a planning enquiry into the specific road proposal. But nevertheless, you may have different ways of getting from A to B but those different routes may in actual fact give a different set of benefits or perform different functions or not necessarily meet all the needs as you're setting out to meet. They always do in major highway schemes, nearly all options for major highway schemes have certainly have all have different environmental impacts affect er all the factors that we've looked at differently on all our schemes. Er er traffic effects are different, economic effects, effects on agriculture, effects on greenbelt land etcetera etcetera, they all have d depending on which route you take, a different impact. And that's the case with inner and outer, They are perhaps more fundamentally different er in some respects that than than other options for an outer where they go for example on the western where they're totally outside, I would accept that. But the way that the the structure plan is is er is indicating the policy, it is it is silent on that. If we amend particularly if we amend the the way the diagram is er is indicating it. Can I can I ask you a question and then direct the next one to Mr ? When you say the County Council is committed to the northern or the outer relief road route, do you mean committed or do you mean that that is their preferred option. That is their preferred option which I am instructed er to to pursue. They have got to the stage having gone through the consultation, having done the assessments, looked at the alternatives, have declared that as their preferred route which er the next stage would then be as I say, the planning process. There is and the County Council has indicated that if circumstances change, er then it can look at this again. So in terms of commitment er County Councils can always look at the the route, it can always change its mind. Er it may indeed deed have to change to change its mind if if a future planning enquiry er Yeah. A future inspector recommends it is the wrong route. So situations are reviewed and we do look at monitored traffic flows for example, we do look at our justifications and if there are reasons for a change we can go back, so it's not irreversible by any means, that is the current committed preferred route however and I didn't want to give an indication that by changing the diagram we were saying everything's opened up again, cos clearly we've reached a stage that the County Council's declared it's a preferred route and that's Yes. declared for people who are buying houses and etcetera and it has a certain statutory status but it but it can be looked at again clearly. Yes it's a preference. Now Mr , in the light of what Mr has said, do you understand that if the structure plan key diagram was amended in that way, it will still yo leave you and your clients open to challenge, or you would have a better chance of challenging er the er preferred option of the County Councils at the next stage, which is either through the local plan channel or through the er the the planning application stage for the highway? Yes, that's our objective. We have always tried at every stage to to erm avoid a commitment of any kind to an outer northern route. We know that we will have further battles in the future to fight but erm we wanted to avoid any statutory commitment in the structure plan and we will be happy if we achieve that today. Thank you. Before we leave this Mr , can I please ask you if you accept what Mr has said in paragraph three of his statement B three double O two, the statement on behalf of the Parish Council? Could you tell me so that I can find the statement. Your statement on behalf of the Parish Council, your summary Summary yes. paragraph three. On behalf of Scotton. Thank you. Oh I don't a I don't agree with paragraph three no. I don't accept the assertions that it would achieve limited traffic benefits or indeed would would be unlikely to bring significant environmental relief. I certainly I I think the percentages there are er er are accurate er taken from the the diagrams, but I wouldn't accept the er the follow on, the conclusions which are are drawn in that paragraph, clearly. You accept the percentages though do you? I accept that those those percentages are ones taken from a particular report er showing the changes at certain points on the on the A fifty nine. We've actually summarized that as Mr has said in his proof as being showing reliefs of between twenty and thirty percent. Er er er and those er those are particular points in the network where er particular figures have been obtained. One of the objectives that the County Council has actually set when it declared the when it approved the outer route was to instruct the County Surveyor to seek ways and means of trying to increase the relief to Harrogate and Knaresborough er with an outer northern relief road. And that's work which we will need to do in the future, these percentages erm have ob have been obtained from our forecast based upon basically the the the the status quo if you like, in a free choice. Clearly as we build a package of measures er within the urban areas, then we'll be looking for schemes that will encourage use of the outer northern relief road and w attempting to increase the er the flow of traffic on that route. But even having said that, er it is still performing in my view or would perform an extremely valuable er service in terms of taking out the A fifty nine through traffic. As you'll see from the diagram, in the year of opening in nineteen ninety nine, on the central section of the l outer northern relief road there are eight thousand vehicles a day using that that road, that's eight thousand vehicles a day that won't be wouldn't be passing through Knaresborough and through Harrogate. And I think that is significant. So can we come back then to er asking you for written confirmation of the Certainly sir. indication of the A fifty nine relief by a single triangle and er let us have that in writing. Certainly sir. Yeah. Thank you. Mr . Can I say that I hope Mr or or whoever writes for the County Council wouldn't use the form of words, but erm although I am instructed by my clients that they would be satisfied with the change to a single triangle, erm I don't think that they would be satisfied if you in making that change, you accompanied by a form of words which said the County Council are still committed to building an outer. Thank you. That is in practice the the position. Is it not? What Mr said to us. Can we do anything in this structure plan forum to to change that position. I what I have come here today to do is is in the matters that we're discussing, to to take out any commitment to an outer northern. I do not think that we can achieve more in this forum. If there is more to be achieved in this forum, then I think my clients would like to fight for it because we we do believe that we would we do believe that logic and technical sense stands against the proposal that's in the structure plan at the moment. Well at the moment Mr is not in a position to how shall I put it, withdraw his authority's commitment or preferred option, they have they have made that decision and short of him convening a memb a meeting of the highways committee between now and whenever, you wo there's no way in which he would be in a position to withdraw that. The only way in which er you could get how shall I put it, another view on the issue, would be to continue the debate here on whether or not the outer northern fulfils the functions and the needs which it pr claims to do compared with the inner routes between Knaresborough and Harrogate. Are you offering me that as an option chairman? I'm suggesting if you want to pursue that, I'm prepared to listen to it yes. May I I do not need an adjournment but may I back away from the microphone to take instruction? Yes. The Mr Er George , the my clients instruction is not phrased very legally, but it's, let's go for it, so we would sir like to pursue the issue of er our contention is that the outer er northern r route as shown in the structure plan key diagram as it is at present does not meet the need for traffic relief of the A fifty nine A sixty one corridor. Do you want to expand on that. Yes. give your name again Mr ? George . My expansion is crystallized in paragraph three of the summary statement on behalf of the Parish Council. That is that the County Surveyor chose in September nineteen ninety one to show reductions at six points on the existing road network. That choice of six points is not mine, it was the County Surveyor's choice. The reductions at those six points are the figures I have given in paragraph three, seventeen percent, nineteen percent, twenty eight percent, twenty three percent, ten percent and thirteen percent. They are very low levels of reduction. If one uses the criteria in the Department of Transports manual of environmental appraisal, to which the County Council themselves have referred, most of those levels of reduction don't even erm fall at the level where you would normally evaluate their environmental impact. I should say that the figures of seventeen percent, nineteen percent, twenty eight percent and twenty three percent, the first four figures, are figures on the A fifty nine. The smaller reductions are on the part of the A fifty nine through Harrogate where the flows are much bigger. The reductions, the bigger percentage reductions of twenty eight percent and twenty three percent are in the section closer to Knaresborough where in fact the flows are substantially smaller, er are quite a bit under twenty thousand. I could actually give you the exact figures er or or Mr but I won't give them at at the moment of the top of my head. But those big percentage reductions are taking place at a point on the network where the southern bypass has already reduced the flows, so th those parts of the network would be much less in need of relief. The ten percent and thirteen percent figures which are very low indeed re relate to the A six six one which following the opening of the southern bypass and er the Sainsbury er I don't know whether it's a hypermarket or a supermarket on Wetherby Road, has very now has very high traffic flows which are comparable to flows on the A fifty nine. The outer northern rel relief road does nothing to to reduce those flows or nothing significant to reduce those flows on Wetherby Road. An inner relief road, the one favoured by Scotton Parish Council would be much more successful. And and the final thing that that that I ought to say is is that i if i it has a hangover to what's going to be said later today. If an inner northern relief road were built, it could take some of the traffic which the western relief road is catered to deal with. Mr the percentages which you have quoted, are they taken from the figures which the County Surveyors has proposed in his table two, attached to his paper? Yeah I just want to be clear on wh No! No? No. Er may I tell you where they are taken from ? Yes yes please. Thank you. If you would turn to my full submission on behalf of Scotton Parish Council. And if you would turn to appendix three to that submission. Yes. Appendix three er contains two pages taken from the County Surveyors report of the sixth of September nineteen ninety one. It's the first of those pages I would direct you to Thank you. The the page which is number three. That's right and it's the table in the top half . And it it immediately precedes paragraph three point four. Thank you. Yeah. I think the question follows Mr , why is County Council supporting a proposal which compared with the o other options before it, provides least relief? The the debate about the inner and and outer is is a little more complicated than that. I find myself in some difficulty in that the statement I have prepared does not debate the merits of the inner and outer routes, but merely the question of is there a need for a relief road er and what are the benefits that the particular relief road er that we are currently promoting which is the outer northern, whether that is is sufficient to demonstrate that it is meeting a need. I think we're getting into very difficult or er waters when we start talking about the relative comparison with other routes which I haven't er myself included in my statement any reference to. Clearly if I had been aware that we were going to be talking about the merits of other routes, then I would have prepared a different statement. But having said that, given that we do need to go on and talk about it, I will do my my best to give that information er that I have. Clearly the diagram the the the table in Mr 's proof where he refers to the traffic figures,th those are taken indeed from our own er committee report er to members which set out er the relief at various points, six points on the highway network, for the outer route compared er with the inner routes. And you'll see from that that er and I accept that er the outer route, the relief is approximately half to the A fifty nine at If you look at the A fifty nine, Knaresborough Road, Harrogate, er there is a relief of five thousand vehicles for the er outer blue route as opposed to nine thousand five hundred er for the inner northern routes. Er now clearly if the if the members had si had been simply the highways committee had been deciding the preferred route simply on the basis of which gives the greatest traffic relief then on that basis they would have chosen an inner northern. Er there are other factors. Er we included to members the information on traffic flows, we also included the information which you have a copy of in my statement Mhm. which gives a very comprehensive assessment er of er the i in terms of the Department of Transport's own manual of environmental appraisal, sets out er information on all the routes that we that were put to the public as part of the consultation we did in nineteen ninety one. Can you direct us to the table please? Is this your appendix B? Appendix B sir yes. Yes. Thank you So these are all factors in here which er the the Well first of all the general public was provided with a a synopsis of this if I can put it that way in that the en original consultation leaflet included er extracts from this, summaries of it er in the leaflet, er and that set out clearly the differing traffic effects of the outer northern relief road compared with the inner. It also set out the er as you'll see from here Well if you look at the detailed information that er was available at the exhibitions, you'll see that it runs through er the effect of the routes on first of all all the vehicle travellers, gives the time savings, vehicle operating cost savings, value accident savings for each of the options. Erm Can I stop you there is You've already explained that the inner routes have a significantly better performance in terms of diverting traffic than the outer one. What's the position with regard to accidents? If you look at the first page of the appendix B, er the outer route was was called was the blue route so if you look down Yes at the bottom of that page, you'll see that the blue route and there are two sets of figures, that is based upon high and lows you see at the top which are high and low traffic forecasts. Yes. Yeah. Er for high traffic forecast there would be the blue route would save and this is a thirty year thirty year assessment period which is a standard assessment period for major road schemes, twenty four fatalities under high traffic growth conditions, twenty fatalities under low traffic growth. Two hundred and eighty serious the these are reductions, two hundred and eighty re er r serious injury accidents would be reduced on the A fifty nine, two thirty with low growth. Seven hundred and ninety six er less slight injury accidents on the A fifty nine, six hundred and fifty three with low growth. That compares with the figures you'll see for the inner routes erm which are higher er because of the er greater transfer of traffic from existing roads. So again, the inner route performs better. Performs better yes. Thank you. And in terms of vehicle operating costs savings, if I just go back to the top of that page, the inner routes again perform well not not so not so well or better? Which? Do they perform better? Er in actual fa in actual fact not so not so well in that er there are there are negative benefits er as you'll see in some and less negative on the blue route. Yeah. Mr . That that is not my interpretation of the table. Erm I I I I will apologize if I am wrong but my interpretation of the table is that erm could you say chairman wh which of three rows of We're dealing with the the top part of the table all vehicle travellers, Yes yes. which of the three rows were you talking about? I was just looking at vehicle operating cost savings. Ah the middle one. Yes. Then Can I can It it it seems to me sir that that erm the the the that some of the inner routes at least the the red route performs better on on operating cost savings than the blue route. Yes. Are we misreading this table Mr ? Red performs better than blue? Not er not my understanding, the the and I think there is a we may have hit on the perhaps the only the only error in the whole, all the figures in this table, there should be a minus clearly in front of the three point six seven in that table. But you'll see on the vehicle operating cost savings, that they're all negative but the blue route is less negative that purple, orange, red and pink and therefore erm is marginally better in terms of vehicle operating cost savings. But on the other two criteria, either side of vehicle operating cost, time savings and Yes it's better on the inner routes yes. accident savings, red is better than blue? Yes. Er red is better than blue yes. I'd accept that yeah. Are there any major groupings of this table Mr where blue is better than red? Well I think what you've got to be careful of and it's always a difficulty when you're looking at er benefits and dis-benefits of major road schemes, you'll see that we go into a tremendous amount of or collect a tremendous amount of information about the different impacts. Some can be quantified in numeric terms and can be looked at objectively, others are subjective. Erm and those are the ones which are described er qualitatively put it that way. Now it is very difficult, clearly to compare qualitatively er one route with another but if you take an example, the effect on greenbelt land, which should you look towards the back, it's just one that springs to mind but there there are no doubt er there will be others which we can go into. Er you will see that on in group four which is the top Unfortunately these aren't page numbers in this er pa they don't have page numbers in this manual. But under group four, under the effect impact on policies, erm is that the right one? Yeah designation of greenbelt,authority of Harrogate Borough Council, approximate land-take erm you'll see that for the blue route, that affects one point four hectares of greenbelt land, whereas for the inner routes, purple affects seventeen point six hectares, orange, twenty point two, red twenty point five and pink twenty point eight. The other er aspect perhaps is if and again on the consultation leaflet and in the manual, effect on houses demolished. Er there are no houses demolished with the blue route, er there are eight houses demolished with the purple route, six with the orange route, six with the red route, and two with the pink route. The other clear major factor was that a result of public consultation er and clearly this was an important consideration when members came to choose the route, that seventy percent of those consulted favoured the outer northern route, the blue route. And they were given the information on on traffic relief er in the leaflet in more detail at the exhibition. And so they were aware when that er that view was expressed of the differing effects. Would you accept that there is an element of us all preferring something that is further away from us than something that is nearer to. I hesitate to use words Well I mean that is one of the other factors of course Is there an element of that in it? Well well clearly that is that is er that is one of the the the elements nevertheless, something that is to be ignored lightly. The other factor probably the way to look at that more objectively is to see how many houses are in proximity to each of the routes which is a standard way again in the departments own er manual of environmental appraisal, of doing that and that is the information which is contained find it er which is a way of looking at noise effects. Er and you'll see that in group two, the impact of the various routes on occupiers, residential occupiers, you'll see that for the blue route and that this is where we have the number of properties demolished by the different routes, on the top line, er in terms of noise effects adjacent to new road, number of houses within a given distance, a centre line, nought to fifty metres there are are only five properties within nought to fifty metres of the blue route whereas there are thirty on the purple, twenty er on the orange,less on the red, four and five on the pink. And so we have again you know, set that information out in the in in the document. Er number of premises adjacent it's similar . But if you look at some of the other factors, for example just within all the other routes, score better than the blue route. I mean, number of premises experiencing experience at least halving of the present traffic. Er That reflects the the traffic forecast that we talked about earlier. I think we r we we accepted in in the County Surveyors report to members, er it was clearly pointed out that the traffic benefits of the inner routes are greater than the outer route. And that I'm not disputing that. And that's to that's clearly summarized on the last page of your appendix B isn't it? It is but then er there are many schemes that er we have that don't have as good a rate of return as the the blue route, that is an extremely healthy economic rate of return for the outer northern blue route. So although it is not as good as the inner routes it is nevertheless an extremely robust scheme in the department of transports terms. So why Because it does take out a significant volume of traffic out of Harrogate and Knaresborough. It's not as much as as the other two but it's still a significant amount. So why at the end of the day does the County Council feel that the blue route is preferable to the others? Because in reaching its decision it takes account not only of the technical merits in terms of traffic relief but also, the wider impact er the other factors in terms of the route and also public opinion. If that were not the case then we wouldn't have er public consultation exercise and ask for people's views in terms of which routes they support. And in this case it was an overwhelming support for the blue route. It wasn't a marginal decision, the the sum total of the inner routes er represent thirty percent of those er expressing a view whereas the one outer route attracted seventy percent of the response in favour. And clearly that had a significant effect on the discussion. And yet on the face of it, the inner route seemed to offer a better way of meeting the need than performing the functions that you seek for the relief road to perform in that part of Harrogate Knaresborough. Yes. Can you identify any particular factor apart from public opinion which indicate may not be as helpful in this sort of circumstance as in others. Any particular factor Well apart from that, on which the County Council placed a great deal of weight. Because on the evidence before us it seems to me it's hard to understand why they went that way. I've stolen Mr 's thunder I think. I find it I find I must say I find it difficult to understand why you find it difficult to understand that they they chose that particular route. I'll go through it if you like. Clearly clearly there are o there are there are clear reasons in my view why that route was chosen but there are As I say I find th somewhat at a disadvantage because I haven't come prepared to talk about the relative merits in great detail of the two routes. The the information certainly there in that t in the manual erm there are other factors. Clearly er my recollection at the time there was great concern and it can and it's it's it's arguably reflected in the public response, about creating a new road passing between Harrogate and Knaresborough. seen as a vital green wedge between Harrogate and Knaresborough, it's designated as greenbelt land, there was a tremendous amount of concern er about passing through there. L some of that land is at the present time is used for the golf course, there was an impact of all those routes on on the golf course. There was major concern about that. But perhaps more than that was the concern about this e affecting this precious area of land between Harrogate and Knaresborough. And that came out as a as a as a certainly many people mentioned that to me at the exhibitions that I attended. Er there was a worry that well first of all the effect just the the appearance of the road passing through that area, clearly obviously concerns about development but that can be on on any route that can happen. Er and that can be resisted. Er but but simply the fact it was passing through this area of land that was regarded by locals as being sacred and separating the two communities. But if I'm if I act as devil's advocate, the fact that that inner route would pass through the greenbelt does not necessarily diminish the purpose of the greenbelt. Which is to keep or prevent coalescence I think er probably ask Mr to comment on that. Surely the the primary purpose of the greenbelt in this location is to prevent coalescence between Harrogate and Knaresborough. Or does he believe that is a route is put through there then that would increase development pressures in that sector of the district and the greenbelt notation would then run the risk of having to be reviewed. I shouldn't put words in your mouth, Thank you chairman, David , Harrogate Borough Council. Er yes I this this is a very very sensitive part of the what is the West Riding greenbelt, the outer edge of the West Riding greenbelt. It does have a its prime function is erm protecting the coalescence of Harrogate and Knaresborough and and protecting their special character. Erm I don't necessarily think that a road running through that area would increase development pressures and basically because it is greenbelt, it's not going to development pressure. Very much however depends on the alignment of the road. I think if the road was drawn very closely in to the greenbelt edge then that could have an effect on development pressures and it could lead to pressures for erm some er amendment the greenbelt boundary in in the future erm of plan making processes. What are the Borough Council's views about relative preference to inner and outer ? One of the erm I mean I think it has to be said that we erm I support everything that er Chris has said about the the effect of traffic relief. There is much greater traffic relief provided by the inner relief road er I think our gen Is that a good thing? I sorry? Is that a good thing? In itself in providing a greater degree of traffic relief Yes it I mean it is a good thing, it is a plus point. But I think erm the general point that was made really has to be considered alongside other considerations, is is the the key consideration. Erm our view was that there are erm problems associated with er an inner relief road and one of one of those problems was the amount of traffic that would pass through End at Knaresborough, there was a lot of concern as we spelt out to members in our er committee report that erm traffic erm along Forest Lane Head towards Knaresborough along the A existing A fifty nine corridor, would actually increase over the do nothing situation. Is that a matter which could be overcome by detailed position? Or not? Er I don't know if I can answer that I suspect not . Sorry does it I put my question very badly, does it make any difference to traffic through this particular part or Knaresborough where the relief road is? If it were If if it was an inner relief road Yeah. Yes. No I don't think it really makes an difference on the detailed alignment of an inner relief road, I think it's basically the perception of motorists using er the system in that part of Harrogate and Knaresborough that it would be quicker to use the existing A fifty nine through Knaresborough than you go along one of the radial routes onto er the inner relief road. So it might The inner relief road, whichever alignment if I read you right, would actually push more traffic back onto the A fifty nine in Knaresborough. Along a section of the A fifty nine yes Along a section. Yes. A along Forest Lane Head, really the the bit that passes through the countryside between Harrogate and Knaresborough. Yes. Mr ? Thank you. Yes I'd like to m make a it's an important point about End. It it does indeed do what Mr said, but there are two other roads into Knaresborough from the Harrogate directi one from the Harrogate direction and one from the south east. What the inner northern roads do is encourage people to go into Knaresborough via Bond End but there is a considerable compensating decrease on the other two roads into Knaresborough from the Harrogate direction. So if if one takes all three roads into Knaresborough, it does not have it does not increase traffic. It what it tends to do is to encourage more traffic to come into Knaresborough on the main road as opposed to the two secondary roads. The second point to make again, is that where the A fifty nine comes into Knaresborough at Bond End, it is not as busy as it is e on other parts of its length. Yes I I don't really want to respond to that other than to say that Bond End is d it's still an extremely important consideration, it's in the conservation area, it's an important part of Knaresborough and it was obviously something that members had in mind when they they made their decision on on the relative merits. But do you and or your members place greater weight on the impact on that particular part of Knaresborough as opposed to the impact on Knaresborough and Harrogate generally? I don't know if I can answer that to be absolutely honest I I mean I really feel that erm that would be reading too much into the decision that that our members took at that time. Your own view? No my my own view and it's I I don't know if I've come to a view on the relative weight of those sorts of considerations er I I'd need to think about it some more before I could come to a view on that. There are other considerations which which come into play, for example the golf course between between Harrogate and Knaresborough. Erm now that the inner relief road options would have required some relocation of the of the golf course, would certainly have disrupted erm the golf course and that was undoubtedly a a consideration. Certainly something that the public erm referred to in their consultation response. Just to go back a stage, to a comment you made there, you you did say that the inner relief road on one of the routes, on one of those routes, would in fact enable environmental benefits to be felt elsewhere in the town, simply because you're getting a better distribution of the traffic. I mean there there are some dis-benefits but do the benefits that arise from an inner route, outweigh those dis-benefits. I mean has that been examined. I it's not been examined sir, no. It hasn't been examined. Mr do you want to raise anything else? Very little. Because most of what I have said is fair m most of the case that I wish to put er has come out in the discussion that there has just been. It is also contained in my submission. I will summarize it as follows. The I believe that there is a need for traffic relief to the A fifty nine and to the A six six one. An inner northern relief road That is that is the Wetherby Harrogate road isn't it. It is yes. Thank you. The inner An inner northern bypass would provide that relief, it would be twice as successful in providing relief as an outer northern route. It is true that if one searches on can find some aspects in which the outer northern route is preferable to the inner northern route. Mr has mentioned the number of houses that would require demolition and the amount of greenbelt that would be taken. About those two things I would say that the number of houses requiring demolition is very small, and as has been observed already, a road is not an inappropriate use in the greenbelt. We also have one overall environmental assessment of the impact of the inner relief roads. Not one of the little piece picking a little piece out, but an overall assessment and this was produced for the County Council by their environmental consultants and was specifically referred to in the County Surveyor and I think County Planning Officer's joint report, and that er assessment said, rather than damaging an an irreplaceable, sensitive landscape as could happen with the other routes, the inner northern route could be seen as a means of improving the landscape. So it is not simply that the inner northern route gives far greater traffic relief than the outer northern and therefore far more effectively meets the need, but also on environmental criteria, the Council's own consultants appear to have found that at least in its effect on the landscape that it is preferable. That quote just just so we have it for record, that quote is taken from eight point nine, paragraph eight point nine of your full submission. I'll just check. Page twelve. Yes. Thank you very much Mr , Mr would you like to come back? Just er just briefly sir if I may. Erm clearly in terms of er the relative merits of the of the different routes for an A fifty nine relief road, there are advantages in in in traffic terms er of the inner northern relief roads. Er I think er the important point to remember is that all of these er benefits and dis-benefits were I don't have the Thank you. Well just just to reiterate, I mean we we would still like to have that letter from you confirming that. Mr Chairman if I could just erm David , Harrogate Borough Council. If I could just pick up on one point erm and that was related to the the two different types of inner relief road that that was proposed. One set had possible links into Harrogate and the others didn't. And they actually provide different levels of traffic relief. And certainly it was the case as my understanding of it anyway, is that those l er those routes that had links into Harrogate provided far greater relief than those that didn't have links. Yes. And that when you look to compare the the merits of those er without links and the outer northern, there's not that much difference. Our concern as Borough Council was with the er inner relief road options that that had links into the urban area. We're very concerned about the environmental effects of those links into Harrogate. Most of which would come onto erm the A fifty nine through the urban area, through residential areas or or in fact onto the stray. Sorry Mr but just to pursue that point . Those links into Harrogate nevertheless are required are they not in order for the relief road to function. They certainly would be required for an inner relief road erm to function effec as effectively as has been suggested at this E I P. I think what you're saying is we're not comparing like with like. Mr . Yes two two points. First of all, I think that it it's difficult to be sure of this because of the way in which the County Council prepared their the evidence on which I relayed relied and like Mr I didn't come here prepared to talks in detail about the inner northern. But to the best of my knowledge, the figures I have quoted on the inner northern are without links. It becomes I I do touch on this at one point in my submission, it becomes even better if it has links. I think it's twice as effective without links and it becomes even better with links. That's the first point. The se Yeah carry on sorry, the second one. Right. The second point is about the public consultation exercise. I must choose my words with care as well that my clients and I think that there was very much an effect of people wanting to have a relief road, but also wanting to have it as far away from themselves a as they could have it. One could use various pejorative terms to describe that which I won't but but my clients felt very strongly that there are not very many people living in Scotton and it was an easy option to say let's push the road further away. What I think the public did not appreciate and I do not think would have appreciated clearly from the consultation leaflet, was quite how big a difference there was between the level of relief afforded by the inner relief roads and the outer relief roads, and in that context, I think that to say that the outer relief roads afford relief of between twenty and thirty percent is a little misleading in two respects. And I don't mean to employ it's in any way dishonest. A little misleading in two respects, on is I think the average person doesn't realize that it's very hard to perceive very much of a difference when there's only a twenty to thirty percent reduction. And secondly erm the way the e the quote was made in the leaflet, doesn't point out the fact that in the part of the road where it's busiest, the part of the A fifty nine where it's busiest and on the A six six one, that the reduction is in fact less than twenty percent. Thank you. Finally and then I'd like to go to the A sixty one, er a point of information Mr , the standard that you are talking about for eit any of these routes, is it dual two lane or single two lane? We haven't made that er decision as yet. The You haven't made a No. public consultation was on the basis of a dual carriageway and it Yes. clearly said that in the Right. in the information so we had to we had to assume one for the purpose of public consultation but we said that the final decision on standards would be taken er in another time. Yeah. Clearly when we make a planning application we have to er finalize that. Thank you can can we now move to the A sixty one? You've been very patient Mr . interested in that conversation. Er Mr can I just pursue the general theme? As I see it, you have talked about the A sixty one er and the idea of having a western relief road would remove something like seven thousand vehicles from the existing A sixty one. Have I read your comments correctly? Something of that order. That's right, seventy seven thousand which is thirty percent of Yes yes. Seven thousand out of The actual flows on the bypass are higher than that Well in certain locations but for reasons which go into No no no no can I no no yes just let just let me pursue pursue the the thing the way I would like to at the moment. Erm that seven thousand e those seven thousand vehicles, is that the through traffic element on the present day A sixty one? Or in oth can I put it another way? In fact what is the through traffic element on the existing A sixty one? Right. Er the A sixty one, it varies whether you're looking at the A sixty one south or the A sixty one north as to what percentage and what flow er is through traffic and also between which e elements or which radials we're talking about because there's A sixty one to A sixty one, there's also A sixty one to A fifty nine which is also through traffic . Yes. Yeah yeah yeah. Er but based upon the surveys that we conducted in er nineteen eighty nine which is the basis of the traffic forecasts, er on and that is just twelve hour two way flows, we have a total flow on the A sixty one north er entering Harrogate of sixteen thousand three hundred vehicles. Now of that, fifty four percent was heading for Harrogate and Knaresborough. Yes. Erm So that's roughly nine thousand ten thousand vehicles. Er that's right roughly roughly of that order Yeah well W eight thousand eight hundred I can give you the precise figure was local traffic headed for Harrogate and Knaresborough. Erm thirty three percent of that figure was heading South and was through traffic. Er eleven percent er was heading west on the A fifty nine. So Which is traffic coming down the A sixty one and heading west on the A fifty nine. Er north Coming from the north? It's coming from the north yes. Coming from the north yes. Yeah. But at the moment that doesn't use the A sixty one, it uses the the B road that comes through Killinghall to join Yes yes yes. turning off somewhere Killinghall In in the centre of Killinghall yes yes . In the centre of Killinghall yeah. Erm so that was er that was eleven percent but the total through traffic observed on the A sixty one north was er seven thousand five hundred a day. Mhm. So this is why clearly, some of that would be taken out of Harrogate Yes. and some of it is taken out of Killinghall. Yes. Er because the traffic clearly isn't carrying on down through but nevertheless is through traffic. Mm. Which is the relief road does resolves Yeah yeah yeah yeah. Erm So but the residual element which would carry on south through Harrogate is Yes? just remind me again, is how much? Eleven was it eleven? Well the the or residual element er if you take out the I haven't got this figure actually to in this little table I've got here but if you bear with me one moment. Did you say twenty three percent? Thirty three percent of er Thirty three percent of sixteen thousand three hundred was five thousand four hundred yes. Roughly five thousand . Give or take yes. Coming from the Leeds direction? Right again that's slightly complicated in that we have two roads coming from the Leeds direction and the Mhm. surveys were undertaken on both of those, the A sixty f five eight and the A sixty one. Which is the A six five eight? The A six six five eight if you look at the the bottom of the two roads, it's the one on the left which is going on down off the plan. The A six five eight to Leeds. The A sixty one is is heading due south. Yeah this is the one that goes down to Poole isn't it. Yes that's right. Yes. Yeah. Mhm. Erm if you look at the A six five eight, then er seventy five percent of that traffic is heading into Harrogate and Knaresborough. Erm seventeen percent is headed north through traffic. Erm a fairly low percentage, three percent er travelling East, and just one percent are travelling west. Mhm. So there's just over two thousand vehicles. Er there's an ei total flow of eight thousand two hundred, now six thousand one hundred and fifty of that is local traffic, two thousand and fifty is passing through. Sorry could you repeat the figure for through traffic? Two thousand and fifty vehicles. Thank you. This is in a twelve hour so for a daily flow we've This was a surveying period about twenty percent for to these for a full day. So am I am I right in thinking that the western relief road is catering for a north south through traffic element, but its primary purpose is to provide relief to the main e the present A sixty one which runs through the centre of Harrogate and again would seek to distribute traffic around the network and bring it in on other radial roads from the West for example? Well it's got two two purposes Yeah. rather than I think differentiate the sort of primary. I think the pr if there has to be a primary purpose it is a actually to take out the traffic which doesn't belong in Harrogate Yes. or Knaresborough at all, which is the primary both routes are part of the primary route network, the national network er and feel it's not appropriate for for that traffic to be passing through the urban area. Now that element there was an element if you're making a note of figures, we didn't do the A sixty one south in case you No yeah we missed out some traffic through traffic. Erm there's the A sixty one south again where there is another two thousand three hundred vehicles heading in which is totally through Yes. Harrogate on the A six from the A sixty one. But clearly the it forms two purposes, one is to remove the er the through traffic but also it it forms a purpose of redistribution of the traffic such that er there are er benefits er of getting er traffic off the A sixty one which for example is headed for the for the northern part of Harrogate and that that can come in from the South, it can go up to the A fifty nine and then come back into the northern part of Harrogate without having to pass through the centre of Harrogate. And that's a sort of fairly normal function of a of any bypass is to particularly of a larger er urban area as opposed to say a village or a small town is to have connecti connections in er to the to the larger urban area at a number of points. Just to spread the traffic Yeah. and to provide benefits er for that local traffic as well as for the through traffic. Yeah, so you'd anticipate some coming in on the A fifty nine, if you went that far north, Yes. erm and other traffic would come in from on the B six one six two. That is the only other other connection, yes. And that yes. there and perhaps coming on to the Residents' Association point that made in their proof, that our forecasts actually show that on balance, er er there would be an increase in flow in fact on the on that route as it approaches the A sixty one. That what you get in terms of the the effect is that some traffic er will go out to use er the western relief road, to head north or south, and will no longer use the road to get into Harrogate. Er particular there is er a commercial business area at Harlow c court er located on the the western fringe er which clearly at the moment, a lot of our traffic will have to use Road to get into Harrogate and to access to the A sixty one. Now a significant part of that traffic will in the future or with such a road, er make use of that and would no longer have to use Road. Er there are major plans as well as I understand it, Mr can confirm, for extension of that or expansion of that area, already agreed in the local plan. And clearly that would be of benefit er to Road in terms of relieving the pressure from that traffic. There is a plus in that there is extra traffic c would come in and use Road to gain access to Harrogate. But it's a question of pluses and minuses. The figures that we've produced show that on balance er it it's about a neutral effect on Road er through the residential area because of this er reductions due to traffic going out to join the relief road rather than joining the A sixty one. Have you evaluated the relative costs and benefits of an eastern relief road as opposed to the western relief road? I'm playing devil's advocate again. It seems to me that given that you have a southern bypass, there could be an argument for saying, if we had a northern inner relief road, that northern inner relief road together with a southern bypass, could perform some of the functions of the western relief road. Yes we're back to the inner inner northern routes aren't we? Erm Have you evaluated this option ? We did we did evaluate that option er as part of the er early assessments, I don't have the results today. Er but certainly it wasn't as effective er as a western relief road. Er it is er significantly further er via a southern bypass and an inner relief road than it is via a western relief road. And it wasn't as effective but other than that I can't I don't have the sort of the detailed information to er to refer to. When you say it wasn't as effective, in what what sense wasn't it as effective. I mean wasn't was it less attractive It was less attractive to traffic. to say the through traffic element erm erm didn't didn't function as well in terms of distributing traffic around the network which wanted to access. It didn't er it is a difficult for me because I don't have the figures er but er Mr er my assistant who er er did do the detailed work, er tells me that it didn't provide as much traffic relief to the A sixty one as did a western relief. I'm quite happy for Mr to comment direct if he wishes. Sir, Alan , North Yorkshire County Council. Er during the stages er we did look at ways of er providing relief to the A sixty one erm by er using the southern bypass and then any of the inner northern routes. And in doing so we looked at er other routes than shown on that plan there in order to encourage traffic to use those options. Er by effectively where we've got the er combination of colours joining on to the southern bypass, we looked at moving that in a westerly direction to encourage that movement. Er I honestly can't remember what the the breakdown on the figures are but er even by moving that inner route direction er we were unable er within the traffic model to actually er encourage so much re as much relief on the A sixty one what the actual figures were I haven't got them to hand sir at the moment. But we did look at that as er as an option. Can you remember for example, given the the levels of relief you are advocating are acceptable on the blue route, how such roads such a link as an alternative to the western link would perform. Yeah I I ca I haven't got the to hand. I don't think I'm sorry I don't think we'd like to er comment on that without er I think further notice and having having a look at the figures. I you have not said it would not meet the Department of Transports criteria for financial support for example. No. I don't have that er information to be able to er to give you today. Mr do you want to Terry , Harlow and Ash Residents' Association. Er two points at this stage. Erm coming back to an original comment made by Mr . As part of the er western relief road you said that the A sixty one north of Killinghall has in fact a very poor accident record. Er and you actually acknowledged my comments about the hairpin bends and the crossroads. And is is not a fact that in fact the Killinghall bypass and the Ripon bypass, in fact does nothing to in fact i er alleviate those particular problems over about a seven mile stretch. And is it not therefore necessary if you're going to justify this western relief road and quote your own words, as a key link to the north, that will there have to do further work in order to make that road acceptable. Otherwise you will be increasing the accident risks by directing traffic in that way. And finally, surely at this present moment, only four miles east of Harrogate and about three miles east of Ripon the A s A one is at this very moment in time being lifted to an acceptable standard A motorway standard at this stage and not in the year two thousand which is what you're talking about for this road. And finally Mr chairman on this point, we did in fact do some checking to see the sense of using what the county planning committee had recommended to the H er Highways and Transport Committee that they should regard the six five eight, A five nine one as the correct link to the A one. Six of our residents took part in a driving exercise and we demonstrated that clearly and this is for your benefit we'll give it to you, although it's three miles longer to the point where the A sixty one joins the A one, even with the present state of the A one, it is ten minutes quicker to go via the A six five eight, A fifty nine, A one route. It is much easier and it's much safer and it strikes me to to be making the case for a western relief road to provide the relief north to the A one, has already been achieved on the six five eight. Er that's my first point on that, the second point on the same issue of the financial case justification. In the original case that was put forward, the basis of the economical assessment and its traffic flows, was on the western relief road being the first to be built. The case in fact that was put forward by the North Yorkshire County Council Highways and Traffic committee was in fact that the need as so clearly expressed by Mr is that it is the A fifty nine that needs the relief more than anything else an therefore the proposal is that the northern relief road be it an inner or an outer, be built first. Particularly because in your own words, the accident relief it will . Have you therefore reassessed the western relief road's benefits on the base that y you will have now at that point in time both a southern A fifty nine, A one link and a southern northern link, if you want it for the A sixty one north of Harrogate. Now have these figures been reassessed at all? Thank you Mr chairman. The A six five eight includes the i in your terminology includes the the er recently opened southern relief road doesn't it? I'm sorry Mr chairman I w The A six five eight is the is also Is the southern bypass. inclusive of the southern bypass. Is the southern bypass. Yes. Yes. Erm that's the diagram. Yes. There's some more information on the back which I'd like to come to later. That's the actual diagram of the timetables. Does he want one I haven't I haven't I haven't Perhaps while Mr is studying er that piece of paper, I could ask Mr a question? You said at the beginning of the debate on this matter, you supported an orbital relief road system. Can I ask why? Yes chairman, David , Harrogate Borough Council. Erm the question of the need for or the need for an orbital route has been put to our members on a number of occasions. er most recently in nineteen ninety, nineteen ninety one. The main reason is obviously as I said earlier in my in my erm summary of my statement, to reduce congestion, reduce delays, to reduce accidents and to give scope for environmental improvements within the urban area. If you don't have the full orbital system then you don't get the full scale of relief that we're seeking. But you have less roads and therefore less environmental damage where those roads pass. Certainly it's the case that there's a a down side if you like with providing the new roads through what is mostly open countryside. We in com in coming to a view on the principle of an orbital system, looked at erm those issues in very general terms and clearly erm we'll will through the process of either a planning application or the local plan and i would say at this point that we we already have er a member commitment to include the preferred option of the County Council within the local plan as we move forward to our consultation draft next year, we would obviously look more rigorously at the the pros and cons of er particular road schemes. But you think the environmental benefits of the western relief road outweigh its dis-benefits? The environmental benefits taken together with the reductions in congestion and traffic and accidents, outweigh the environmental dis-benefits, yes. Thank you. If I could add there, subject to the proviso that erm I mentioned earlier that the western relief road is pursued on the basis of a single carriageway road. Thank you. Mr ? Yes thank you chairman. Er in fact I have now, Mr has found the er the report which has actually got the traffic assessment e that we've just been referring to which is er no western relief road but with in an inner northern road. And in fact that showed no relief to the A sixty one at all in that it was quicker for traffic to actually pass er through on the A sixty one going to the to the traffic model and the all the assumptions built into it, er than it was to use a southern bypass er out to the inner northern route and then back to the A sixty one south of Killinghall. And so we didn't actually get any relief to the A sixty one in that particular test. Now clearly that you know this is a the the model that we have is a daily one, it is a twelve hour model. Er but we could have run assessments at peak times compared to off peak times probably got slightly different effects at peak times. Er I would accept that. Er but in the way that we assessed er all of these options and which again is fairly normal for you know, major relief road bypasses, er it was indicating er that it wouldn't provide any relief to the A sixty one. And I'm not saying that's the reason but clearly that is er factor and and certainly some of the points we were making about distribution of traffic er on the western side of harrogate er clearly that wouldn't have had the benefits of providing that that connection on the western side, it would have concentrated all connections between Harrogate and Knaresborough and given rise to more concentrated local traffic effects in that area than would be the case er with an outer western er relief road. Mr first, then Mr Sorry. All I wanted to know sir was which page Mr was on, I I'll comment later I just want to know which page it is please. I've got the We're not on a page. Oh . Right. Yes. Er it's a plan rather than a page. Right. Mr before you that one was a question that but could you pick up the questions which Mr raised. Yeah certainly sir. The er the first point as i understand is is with regard to use of the the A six five eight, A fifty nine, A one as opposed to the er using a western relief road, that being er a more appropriate route. In fact erm we have clearly in terms of the of the southern bypass is in place er and and also the A one, er there are two other schemes we do have in place so in terms of doing travel times and seeing er which is the quickest route we have to to some extent er Well we rely upon the traffic model. But there are two factors er that come into play, one is the A one motorway proposals, er the other is the Ripon bypass which is currently under construction as well which we're also reviewing. a blockage a significant blockage on the A sixty one increase journey times or reduce journey times on the A sixty one as opposed to southern bypass and A one. But we did recognize that in opening the southern bypass, it would have an effect on traffic pattern. Er the work that I've referred to earlier in terms of the through traffic, was assessed before the southern bypass was open er and so we did put in place er a traffic automatic traffic counters on a number of key routes er to see whether on opening of the southern bypass, the actual effects er where the same as we were modelling cos clearly we were concerned that we didn't want to be er basing our assessments of of of of further relief roads on a false premise. Er and so we did we did we did look at the traffic flows and monitor them. We monitored them for a period of about twelve months before we reported to members on the outcome. Er and that er in my view anyway demonstrated that we'd got it about right in terms of our assessment of the effects of the Southern Bypass. Er there was very little effect on the A sixty one through the centre of Harrogate or to the north of Harrogate, the sorts of traffic flows that we had prior the southern bypass are still there. There hasn't been a switch from the A using the A sixty one er to get across to the A one using the southern bypass, that just hasn't happened in practice. There's a very small difference of two and a half percent which Mr refers to in his proof as being a change er in the figures which I would accept. Indeed I've included as you'll know in table two to my statement, er the effects of the of the southern bypass. There is a very small change on the A sixty one of two and a half percent. That really is within the er the grounds for error in any traffic count. Er indeed nationally there has been in the last twelve months, a three percent er reduction in traffic flows in any event. Erm so that response to using the southern bypass the A one, certainly some traffic might find that heading north will find that attractive. But it hasn't been reflected in traffic flows on the A sixty one to date. And some of the traffic of course isn't heading A one north of the A sixty one. There is quite a lot of local traffic er I say local, is heading for the area you know, north of Harrogate er erm to er to the Dales, er to Ripon er and points between Harrogate er and the A one to the north. Er on on the question of the A sixty one itself erm and the remaining sections that need to be improved, which again will make it more attractive compared with the A one. There the Ripon bypass which is under construction, I mentioned. The Killinghall bypass er does bypass some of the severe bends of at the southern ends. I accept that there are then still there is still a section er of six or seven miles between that improvement and Ripon. Er there is a scheme in fact on our reserve list of of major schemes for that section of road. This is the bit going past isn't it. Yeah. Well the bit just past Ripley no will be bypassed by the by the Killinghall er section. Mm. As you'll see from the Yeah. erm well no actually that's It's not the line on the green dots because that's a er er an older plan, but is in fact it's shown better on the er the aerial photograph where you can see the the currently preferred or the preferred route for the northern outer northern route, er and the link up to the A sixty one to the north. You can see that that now is quite a substantial length of new road er which in fact er does bypass the Ripley roundabout er and goes some distance to the north on the A sixty one where it rejoins. Er but the major capitol programme but has not yet been included arrows, E Mr 's second question related to the question of whether rows, E Yes we have. Er and that showed er in fact when we reported to members in July of this year, we were seeking from them er an indication as to the priority of the phasing because prior to that and in fact it's reflected in the structure plan, we simply have a a scheme for A fifty nine, A sixty one relief roads, they're not broken down into the two schemes. Er as the schemes progressed forward in the programme, we need to break those down into manageable packages er to progress them sensibly through the the various stages. Er and erm we did for that er report er as indeed in fact we had earlier in any event, we'd looked at them separately, we haven't simply put in an orbital route, we had assessed in the traffic model er as separate schemes. Er and we found at that earlier stage, they acted largely independently. Er the the one had very little effect on the other. The A fifty nine relief road had very little effect on traffic flows on the A sixty one through Harrogate and vice versa, the A the western relief has very little effect on traffic flows on the A sixty one through Harrogate. And vice versa, the A the western relief has very little effect on the A fifty nine. Er we did that exercise again er to advise members on which had priority, so we did assessments with a southern bypass clearly already there, with a northern relief road in place, assessed that against the situation with no western relief road. And similarly for the western er and that er report was used to er to advise members on priorities. But there was still you know a substantial It was more or less the same case as we had before in terms of the traffic relief that each afforded and the economic rates of return. We weren't getting er traffic which would otherwise be on the western relief road going along the southern bypass and then round the northern bypass to get back to the A sixty one. Clearly it it wouldn't do that, it's twenty two kilometres further than actually staying on the A sixty one through the centre of Harrogate. We would have great difficulty persuading traffic to do it. Your northern road was the blue route was it? She said, feeling like a terrier attacking a bone . That's right. Yes yes. You didn't do a similar assignment for the inner route north? Well cl clearly not in July of this year because No. as far as the committee was concerned there is they've taken a decision on the preferred route, but we did as I've just referred to in the earlier work, er we did assess that erm and that showed again er that the traffic wouldn't transfer from the A sixty one onto a southern bypass and a inner northern relief road. Well Mr sorry I'd just like to comment on this this matter Name name please. George . Speaking this time for Residents' Association. I'd like to comment on this matter of the relationship between the western relief road and a possible inner northern relief road. I have tried to e ascertain which particular diagram in this report Mr was quote quoting from. I think I I've found the report er the particular map. If I have,e I have to say that I don't think that the particular version of the inner northern route had its junction with the southern bypass moved to the west. Which would obviously be a necessary change to make if it was going to relieve the western bypass. That's my understanding but it is based on shuffling t right. So so I think there could be some improvement there. M more importantly, the technique which is used for predicting traffic flows which the County Council ha have used. U uses what is called an all or nothing assignment. Which means that it assigns all the traffic to the shortest route. Er the cheapest route I should say, it's an amalgam of erm travel time and cost. Now if it so happened that the A sixty one was seen as a marginally shorter route, then the model would have sent all the through traffic along the A s sixty one and none along around the bypass. It wouldn't have taken as Mr has pointed out, any cognizance of the fact that there's difference for different times of the day, nor would it have taken any account of the fact that people would perceive the travel times and travel costs in different ways. That brings me onto another point which is made in the panel's submission that people have talked all the time about the limits of traffic management on the A sixty one as if the objective of traffic management was to get through Harrogate quicker. Now that's not what we are suggesting. If you made it a little more difficult for through traffic to go through Harrogate, that would encourage traffic to divert to whichever relief road that you had and it would achieve an environmental objective at relatively little cost. What I'm suggesting is that it ought to be possible to design an inner northern relief road with an appropriate junction and with appropriate traffic managements in the centre of Harrogate so that you can encourage a significant proportion of the traffic that would otherwise have used the western relief road to divert to the southern bypass and inner relief road. I cannot prove that but I do not think that the tests which have been carried out by the County Council refute that possibility. Any comment Mr ? Mr is is correct in in saying that er the diagram doesn't show er shows it on that line which clearly was the line was the comment point for all the inner routes at that time, but as Mr said. we did actually try as part of those tests although not reflected in that particular figure, er moving it to see whether we could encourage that er a different effect. Er er and and and that wasn't the case. I think I think I go back to this point about I think in concept anyway I'm not happy about er a proposition that er that function is performed or I can see the disadvantages significant disadvantages in having the traffic er for both the A sixty one er and the A fifty nine c and its links into Harrogate and Knaresborough, concentrated on that er on on inner northern line. I can see real problems er on the A fifty nine for example of traffic coming back into Harrogate or into Knaresborough er from that er from that junction on the A fifty nine. It's far better in my view to have a f a more balanced er distribution of the traffic er that you achieve by having er a separate route for the A sixty one to the west. Because it does mean then that that traffic er on the western side of Harrogate can get out to the western relief road as there's no need then to go on the urban roads in Harrogate. And that wouldn't be the case er with er with some of the er with with the option that's being put forward. I'm not asking for a lesson on highway modelling particularly at half past four in the afternoon but what's your reaction to what Mr said about the way in which your model would perform in other words on an all or nothing basis, when it's shorter it all goes that way? Regardless of how much ongoing that way. Yeah. Or perceptions of how much time it takes Right. actually change. Again in any traffic model there are pluses and minuses, the simplistic assumption is and it's it's a common techniques used in in in in traffic models er for for schemes of this type er that you do use all or nothing. there are other techniques. Er traffic is spread around er in that the area is divided into a number of zones, so when you talk about er shortest route and all traffic being assigned, then certainly in terms of the a lot of the local traffic and the through traffic in terms of where it's loaded into the model, each individual journey between A and B between each zone A and each zone B is loaded onto its shortest point. But there are a lot of A to Bs loaded onto the the network. Er and therefore the the overall effect is a more of spreading the traffic than simply it all appearing on one route. Having said that in the case of a of a a of a through movement, I accept that we are loading at at the traffic in at the A sixty one if you like and it's coming out at the A sixty one north. And therefore there can be a more marked effect as a result of this this all or nothing technique. Er clearly when we have got that situation, we don't just simply put the numbers in and press the button and you get the answer out at the end, er the people who er did this for us at the time, er are professional er transportation consultants er and given that the key er one of the key outputs from this model was the effect of a er a bypass, then this is something that we looked at in in some detail as well as er the actual effects that the model was putting out. Now you know, having said that I accept that if we did a peak hour model and an off peak model we would have shown different effects. it's a more broad brush appro approach. That we that we have to look at these at this stage of the scheme. Mr . George ,s sorry. I I want to say er t two things. I think Chris and I are are in agreement e about the technical issues here. Erm I'm simply saying that there is a possibility of a an inner relief road taking some of the traffic, an inner northern relief road, taking some of the traffic that might otherwise have remained on the A sixty one. And not a technical matter but a policy matter, I think that the probabilities of it doing that could be er increased by traffic calming measures on the A sixty one to make it take longer to go through Harrogate that way. However what I want to emphasize is that Residents' Association's case is not does not rely on an inner northern route acting as a an alternative to a western rel route. The main part of Residents' Association case is that the amount of relief afforded by any western relief road, does not justify the environmental damage which that road will cause. I respect er the view that was put to me in the extract from P P G twelve, but i nevertheless think that this is a matter of principle because it doesn't apply to a particular res western route, it applies to all the western routes. It is the Association that all the western routes cause severe environmental damage. Mr Terry ,Residents' Association. Er two points, one comes onto environment for Mr who says that they are seeking for the environmental benefits to the A sixty one and relates something to the percentages. Erm I don't understand and all of that but what we quickly did, we assessed the seven thousand er and the actual environmental benefit means instead of a vehicle every three point five seconds on the A sixty one, there'll only be one every four point eight seconds. And I would like to ask and if you know anything about the the topography of Harrogate, the second er most attractive feature of this town after the Nidd Gorge is in fact . A volcanic crag with a superb wo wood face to is with many footpaths through it. The present road and I don't want to get into the detail of it but relate it to environmental costs against the so called benefits, would in fact cut right through there with a viaduct and it would actually start of on something like a twenty seven foot emba er a twenty seven foot high embankment and with a fifty four deep cutting. And what I would like to ask in in this environmental age that we live in, for a benefit to the people on the A sixty one, for a vehicle every four point eight seconds instead of every three point five seconds, using your own figures, how can you justify and quantify the cost of the environmental damage that will be done to what is regarded as the finest visual attractive side of Harrogate. Valley,Beck,Crag and right next to in fact in this particular line, I have to say this, next to Gardens which is a both an international and national recognized er facility in this er in our envir in our town which attracts many many visitors. And would be seriously undermined by any proposed road that will come in on the western side. And I just don't know Mr chairman how they quantify that kind of benefit in traffic flows on the A sixty one which is what they're trying to claim, against the environmental impact,. Notwithstanding we do not believe as we've already said that flows of traffic justify and coming if I may er before Mr answers to give him time to think about it, to the figures from Mr . He quotes that in fact the accuracy of their predictions and forecasts would suggest that they are. And I again don't understand these figures because I take from table two and I see the A sixty one er reading going from twenty four thousand to nineteen thousand on the opening of the bypass. I also find that he's been quoting some twelve hour figures and the only ones I have, you may have them er Mr chairman, are from the H and T C report in July of last year where they forecasted four thousand nine hundred on the A six five eight and achieve eight thousa for nineteen ninety six and achieved eight thousand one hundred now. A sixty percent increase of traffic on the A six five eight. Those don't seem to correspond with suggestion of the tight close proximity of your figures. In fact, finally on the actually opening of the complete phase the er the increase on the six five eight was on the completion at that lower section, was in fact a sixty percent increase from six thousand to nine thousand. Mr are you going to pick up the first point and then Mr . Cer certainly chairman, David , Harrogate Borough Council. Clearly it's it's very difficult to er to be very specific about this sort of thing. After a after all what we're talking about is is what er a subjective assessment. Erm our members and the County members have come to a a a judgement and a decision based on all that information, all the information that you you have just mentioned to this E I P. We we've looked at the implication of a r a western route. We've looked at the benefits that would accrue from providing traffic relief along the A sixty one corridor. W that has all been quantified as as best it can through all the various reports and very detailed information that's been provided for for members. And they've come to a judgement on those issues and their judgement is that erm they s should support the principle of a western route. I can't really say any more as to how they themselves have come to come to their particular judgement, but that is the judgement of the members. Mr chairman? Yes Mr . Terry ,. I take it that you're not disputing then that the change in the traffic flows that I've indicated would actually what would be achieved? Well I don't dispute, I've no information myself. I'm not I don't necessarily want to dispute them erm all I would say is that we have to look at the implications don't just look at the change in the traffic flows and take them as a as a point, you have to look at the implications of those changes in traffic flows. My understanding is that change of traffic flows along the A sixty one, through Harrogate and Knaresborough will or through Harrogate anyway, will allow significant improvements to the environment to be to be attained through for example erm pedestrian er refuges on on the roads through i er allowing er pedestrian er priority areas. We can look at erm increased public transport, use of cyclist lanes, that sort of thing. So th there is plenty of scope erm to look at improvements for pedestrian cyclists and the im environments in general. Very difficult to quantify them at this stage but certainly it's it's my advice that er there will be distinct improvements in the environment. Are you Sorry, Terry ,Residents' Association. Erm are you saying then that erm you have actually quantified and and related that in some way to the the damage which has been evident through all of the statements from Harrogate Borough Council, to in fact the N Y C C and acknowledged by the N Y C of the environmental impact that this will have. Er that all of that has actually been quantified in financial terms to be expressed against the simple value of the gains that you're talking about. And if I may Mr chairman, something that's happened in the last few days, that's er evident that er the been the first satellite survey in this country ever which is now beginning to show to the nation, just in fact the damage that roads have been doing and that there's in fact now some suggestion from government that they may be rethinking some elements of these roads, because the environmental impact has not really been taken into account as effectively before. No I'm saying precisely the opposite, David , Harrogate Borough Council. It's very difficult to quantify those sorts of effects and er to members and the decision makers have to come to a judgement as best they can, given the information that's before them. I take the point Mr , I don't think you're going to get a different answer from Mr on this one. Mr do you want to come back on Mr 's comment about traffic flows ? Yes. On the traffic flows, yes yes. I mean I just if I can just add to that er last debate about the the the the effects in terms of er vehicles every so many minutes or seconds. Er clearly what we're saying is that that there would be a thirty percent reduction on the A sixty one either side of the town centre. That i is a significant reduction in traffic flows. Erm one of the points that hasn't been mentioned in terms of the benefits discussed earlier is that the forecasts are that n because of the horrendous accident record of the A sixty one, that transfer of thirty percent of the traffic onto a high standard, modern and much safer road, will result in a reduction in between seven hundred and a thousand people er being injured on the A sixty one during the thirty year er lifespan of the western relief road. That is the forecast in the papers. That is a substantial benefit er to the community. And that includes our estimate based on current statistics, between fourteen and seventeen fatalities. Just on the on on the figures er Sir in terms of table two er that Mr refers to, the er the figures for the A sixty one, I think there perhaps is some confusion here. You'll see that we have attached a diagram er which shows the location of the traffic counts that Mr I think is referring to in table two. Here is a diagram that shows the locations and you'll see that on the A sixty one, we have three er permanent traffic counters recording traffic flows. Er five, six and seven. Five is to the north of Killinghall and you'll see from the table attached, table two that er prior to the opening of the phase one of the bypasses, it was opened in two phases between the A sixty one and the six six one in the southern half was opened first. And then the the final bypass was completed. You'll see that at point five er there was very little change on the in the A sixty one flow er following the opening of the bypass this is some months er afterwards. Erm at point six which is in the centre of Harrogate, again you'll see there was virtually er no change in five hundred vehicles a day in twenty one thousand. Er and the point that er Mr 's referring to as point seven, which is the A sixty one . Now the reason for the five thousand reduction there is that there is traffic or there was traffic that previously er came up the A sixty one but then went along Follyfoot Road which is the road you'll see on the plan which parallels the southern bypass, and that is why up that very short section er there was this reduction er which was heading for points to the east, which clearly went on then to the southern bypass. But in terms of the effect of a western relief road, it's clearly is more critical is the the flows in the centre of Harrogate and to the north. As to whether of this longer distance traffic was being diverted around the southern bypass. The other point on the increase in the A six five eight six five eight fl is at point thirteen, er yes there has there was an increase of three thousand vehicles a day, er on that road with the opening of the Southern bypass. That clearly has proved to be attractive from other routes outside this immediate area with the opening of the southern bypass. So sorry I'm looking at the wrong the wr that is the southern bypass. Yes the flow sorry, point thirteen and fourteen, thirteen is on the southern bypass, I thought Mr was referring to another flow which No no. we don't have in this table, it's on the A six five eight. You were referring to tw sorry you were referring to twelve hour flows which Mm. part of the documentation I received, so I presume you're extracting it from the H and T report of the second of July nineteen ninety two. Ninety three rather. Which is the only twelve hour You actually quoted the eight thousand figure earlier on. Er it was something that you brought in into the discussion so I About the through traffic er element No. I was talking about twelve hour because the surveys that we did in eighty nine were Yeah. twelve hour base and were were So that's in figures I was quoting sorry. So in in response you said that they they were for accuracy and I pointed out to you that that at site thirteen there was a sixty percent error from your forecast for three years hence, nineteen ninety six and what is in fact being achieved at this very moment in time. So it quite clearly there's traffic going on to there that doesn't with what you're saying. Er yes we with the the the prediction, phase one we didn't predict the partial opening of the bypass clearly before we did it, that was just how it happened in practice. The the forecast of there was nine thousand on the er bypass when it was completed fully to the A fifty nine. So it's not the six thousand figure, that that's not really relevant as I see it to the debate about the forecast because that was simply a partial opening the bypass. Mr chairman, er Terry again from . Er Mr has referred to site number five which was the A six one north of Killinghall and because we've already had this discussion, I would presume the inner relief road would have dramatically changed those figures there. The inner relief road would have changed the figures. Erm I'm not sure Well it's north of Killinghall and therefore travelling in towards the town seeking to go round is what you're saying. If you had the inner relief road those figures would in fact therefore change quite dramatically in the same way that the A sixty one figures have changed. Well the fact that we had certainly at point six which is in the centre of the urban area which is where we clearly we're mainly concerned about is where most of the accidents for example are happening. Erm the effect was that that er on on on on the assessment we did at the time, that it wouldn't have affected flows on the A sixty one in the centre of Harrogate. That was the assessment that we that we did, it didn't show any effect on that er on the A sixty one critical part through the urban area. I think the point that Mr is making if I read him correctly is that is you had an inner relief road,in fact it would siphon off traffic from the A sixty one going south from say the Killinghall bypass or relief road. And wouldn't w and could be redistributed round the network. That's the point isn't it Mr ? It is indeed Mr . I I I thought we'd covered that one actually Mr . I'm sorry. Yeah, it's alright. Er before you come in Mr , erm I don't know how many more points you want to raise on this to erm we have another session which starts at five thirty. So Mr and then Mr . Thank you. George ,Residents. I want to start by emphasizing again that er I consider that the amount of traffic relief afforded to the A sixty one would be relatively low. Given that it's relatively low, the small adjustments that I'm about to talk about assume greater significance. The County Council has always said that the western relief road would produce a reduction of thirty one percent in the amount of traffic on the A sixty one immediately north and south of the town centre. However, what I have done is to use detailed assignment printouts given to me by the County Council, it's erm these things here, to look at the changes in traffic flow along the whole length of the A sixty one between its southern junction with a proposed western relief road and its northern junction with a western relief road. And I have averaged out the changes over all the various sections of the A sixty one. And I calculate that the average change over the whole length of the A sixty one is a little lower at twenty seven percent, it's not a lot though, it's a little lower at twenty seven percent. If we then take the effect which the southern bypass appears to have had, on the A sixty one, a two and a half percent reduction, we are then down to something marginally under twenty five percent. I do not intend these figures to be taken as strictly accurate estimates, clearly they can't be. They simply give some indication of the level of relief. In other words if there's nothing wrong with the modelling technique, even then the level of re relief is perhaps something closer to twenty five percent over the A sixty one as a whole. I would like to in that context, I would like to ask both Mr and Mr as question. In section six of my submission on behalf of Residents I refer to the environmental impact of traffic flow changes on existing roads. And I draw on the same manual of environmental appraisal that erm Mr has mentioned in in his evidence, the Department of Transport's manual. It in many instances it isn't specific about levels of traffic reduction which are significant. But it does mention them in at least two contexts, one is when you're measuring noise when it says that changes of twenty five percent should be recorded. I accept that. it's very clear, that's right at the bottom end of what they think should be recorded and until this recent manual p was published, it changes that low were not recorded. Secondly it says that for pedestrian severance, that changes have to be of the degree of thirty percent before they become s significant. Now I have had er quite a lot of experience in the environmental analysis of er road proposals and their effect on existing roads. On the basis of that experience, I think that the western relief road doesn't achieve very much environmental relief to existing roads. But I wouldn't expect you to take my word for it, that's why I'm drawing on the Department's manual which confirms my own experience. Which seems to indicate that there is a bottom level of something like twenty five to thirty percent before the amount of environmental relief begins to be even slight. That's my reason for saying that I don't think the western relief road gives very much environmental relief to the A sixty one. Would both Mr and Mr like to comment on that. Who wants to bat first. Mr . I'm very much aware I've not been saying my name each time I've been speaking but probably too late now. Erm well the the first point probably to make is that this er the manual that er Mr refers to was only published in June of this year er and clearly in terms of the information that er has been put in the statement , that was based upon the previous way of assessing the impact. Having said that, as Mr 's pointed out, in fact the new manual if anything er emphasizes the benefits more than it did previously because as you said, previously it required a fifty percent reduction in traffic to register a one decibel change in noise levels which was s perceived to be significant. Er it's now in this latest manual that's just been published, is saying twenty five percent and clearly er the road achieves that so there is significant benefit as a result er in in that measure of of noise. And that's I'm sure to be welcomed. Er whether it's er slight moderate or substantial er i is er I say is irrelevant but there certainly is significant benefit as a result of er of thirty percent reduction. Er in terms of pedestrian severance again, the new manual er refers to thirty percent and I would certainly argue that er in the significant areas of pedestrian movement we have er we're getting er reductions of that er magnitude. Er I think er it's easy to talk about taking off two and a half percent here and there, I could probably put forward a number of reasons why it could add on two and a half percent, five percent to the figures and indeed I'd be very disappointed if at the end of the day, we didn't achieve er greater reductions because once you get out long distance through traffic, er whose prime purpose is to move from A to B as quickly as possible, once you do that it gives you the opportunity then of bringing in the sorts of measures to improve pedestrian safety, er to slow traffic down, introduce traffic calming, which you can't do on primary routes. But that this would no longer be a primary route that status would be on the new road. We would therefore be able to bring in other measures which we haven't modelled so far er but that is also the guidance that you should bring in, not only nowadays you should not only look to build a bypass, you should look to complementary measures within the urban area. And certainly the County Council is committed to this transport package approach er and will be coming forward with measures in Harrogate to make sure that the benefits of the bypass are maximized. So as I say I would expect to see these percentages significantly increased erm. I think er that's probably all I want to say. Thank you. Mr do you want to pick up a point ? Yes chairman I've not not really got an awful lot to add to that. Erm I think the key point there that that Chris brought out was that it does allow the opportunity for further traffic restraint measures in the town centre. And it's a very and these are historic this is a h historic town centre. Very important to get the through traffic e and the traffic that's no right to be in the town centre, out of the town centre so that you can in incorporate these new measures. Just George , just to respond to the two points that have just been made. I haven't made any adjustments to the figures to to get them lower. The change from thirty one percent to twenty seven percent was just a calculation by using all the information not taking specific points on the network. In fact there are changes considerably lower than that o actually in the town centre. In front of me I can see one link in the town centre where the improvement would only be twenty one percent. The second point that I want to make is I'm not denying that the western relief road would bring some improvement and if the western relief road did not damage did not cause serious environmental damage, I would not be arguing against it. I am arguing against it because on the one hand it brings about environmental improvements in the town centre which according to the latest published government information which as as Mr has has himself said,i is stricter th th than we had published previously. Even according to that it only brings about a slight improvement and yet, the new road causes b in in the words of the County Planning Officer, erm the Borough Council's own officers and the County Council's own environmental consultants, causes severe environmental damage. That's the equation that I'm setting I'm setting up. Severe damage from the new road against slight benefits on the existing road. Thank you Mr , a point which you've made consistently persistently for the last hour. Mr are these two concluding point because I I would like to Er they they are they are er er with our conclusions at the end. Erm the North Yorkshire County Council have made great play and we didn't know it was coming in until we got that information, upon the public consultation document. In the consultation document that was first put out to the public in nineteen ninety one, the public was only offered the yellow route. Simple statement of fact, it's there in document as part of your evidence. It wasn't a question of alternative routes, the grey routes were wiped out said were not going to be considered. it is the yellow route and it is to provide a bypass. The second document that came out as a consultation document, simply led with the evidence that you've pe that you achieve by simply suggesting to people there was only a yellow route. For maybe just a momentary at this moment Mr chairman at this time of day, it's rather like the carpet salesman saying to the lady, which one do you want, red, blue or green, not whether you want one or not. And I'm actually paraphrasing the chief executive of of North Yorkshire County Council there, Mr when on the two tier government. And I have to say that cos Mr can't answer that, that is how the western community of Harrogate felt when they saw the way that this public consultation document was led. And I don't want to wish to ask for them to answer that, that's just the view of the whole of our community, and it did prompt us and it's not on your records, over a thousand signatures were obtained proposing in fact what I'm about to conclude with. on the en on the er environmental issue and the er assessments that have been made, we didn't raise the question of development, H B C did. They say it's not development led but if I can actually quote from all of these documents very very quickly. Five one, new roads will remove constraints of poor excess on sites which may otherwise be acceptable in planning terms. Five summary, relieve the pressure for development on more environmentally sensitive sites elsewhere. I would actually ask the Harrogate Borough Council, where are these more environmentally sensitive sites in Harrogate than the Valley, the Beck and the Crag? Two two three, the new highway schemes may provide major development opportunities and for the two thousand and six town plan, the county will allocate sites which could benefit from new road access. Therefore what we are recognizing is that there would be developments on these roads Mr chairman, I would ask in fact in their assessments of their traffic flows and the environmental impact, has any of that element been taken into account? Besides just the impact environmentally of the road, and besides the traffic flows you could get, the generation of traffic that these roads in fact will bring with them development. Er I'll do my conclusion at the en very end if want in my summation. I think we've got there unless Mr wants to make a response. Erm yes I will I will chairman just very briefly. Erm it has to be said that er new roads do o open up opportunities for development. We erm we've been discussing all last week the amount of housing that has to be accommodated in Harrogate District and in North Yorkshire as as a whole. We will have to find erm sites for that new housing. If a new road is propo proposed we have to look at the opportunities provided by that ro road. What we're not saying is that the the development er the road is development led. Or the need for the road is development led. We're simply saying is the new road does open up op opportunities within the urban area e even, for the release of sites which are constrained by poor access and via the amount of traffic passing along existing road corridors. Er there are two examples along the western route corridor of sites which I do refer to in in the statement, Hildebrand Barracks at , an army camp which er is expected to be vacated in the near future, and Queen Ethelbergers which has been vacant now for for almost two years. Erm finding new uses for those built areas is very difficult because of the constraints of access. The western route if provided along that corridor would help in that situation and would mean that er other sites which are perhaps open countryside, don't have to be developed. Thank you chairman. Thank you. Mr would you like to sum up. Yes Mr . Er Terry ,Residents' Association. We believe from the evidence that's been presented today that in fact the justification of a western relief road as a means of a primary route north along the A sixty one to the A one has not been made. We are doubtful that the benefits of the inner distribution onto other roads and into particular the B six one six two which is the only access onto the western relief road as currently proposed between the A fifty nine and sixty one would generate further problems, onto a road which is only a two lane B road compared to an A l A road Sorry and A three lane road, that the environmental damage far outweighs in fact the so called benefits that are being claimed which nobody's disputed is only a vehicle every four point eight seconds instead of every three point five seconds. For the devastation of the western side of the town. So it our recommendation that it is premature at this pro frozen moment of time particularly with the additional thoughts of the inner northern relief road to be considering in a structure plan a western relief road. And at at at this point in time we do not t think it's appropriate that be be added in this amendment to the structure plan Mr chairman. Thank you Mr . Mr are you anything you feel applies to respond on or you feel you've stated your case? I think er I think the the points er in terms of the of the initial statement and summary of the position covers er most of the points that have been made. And perhaps er what has come out that perhaps is not reflected either in my initial statement or in the summary is this point about maximizing the benefits of the relief roads er through complementary measures within the urban area. Clearly that is very important and will be pursued. Er on the envi environmental aspect, I think it's worth emphasizing because clearly this is the major concern of both Scotton and er the Residents' Association and er that the County Council has and perhaps to some extent I think it's certainly the public consultations or the exercises I've been involved in at this stage in a major scheme has done far more work in trying to assess those effects than is normally the case at this stage in a ma major highway scheme. Er the County Council has employed specialist consultants in terms of landscape impact, in terms of ecological effects, in terms of archaeology, in terms of agriculture. All that work has been done in addition to the the traffic studies. Er we haven't spent a lot of time talking about some of those things today but it's all been done. That information was made available in summary form to the public in the leaflets, in more detail at the exhibitions. Er many members of the public took advantage of the offer of the more detailed appraisal er and indeed came in to look at the detailed consultants reports. They were all made available to members er of both the County Council and the Borough Council when they were making their decisions and they were fully aware of the impact these proposals would have. That's not to lessen the fact that there will be an impact, clearly there will be. It's this difficult balancing exercise between those effects and the benefits of the road. Er simply in terms of the impact, there is a lot more work to be done on that and we would do that in t in developing the scheme and bringing it forward to the next stage, to mitigate the adverse effects er that come about as a result of er construction of new roads. Thank you. Thank you very much. Can I remind you on once more about the please. Can I just one one final point there is e I did notice in my proof there was in in in typing there was one line I don't know if you noticed there was one line that was missed off the bottom of one of the pages, and if I can er either give that to you. Can you give it to the panel secretary? Yes I will do yes. Can I say from the panel's point of view, thank you very much gentlemen for your contribution this afternoon. And Mr for his attendance. And contributions. Thank you. Thank you Mr . Hello Jack, Hello Jack, aha, what's the matter? Jean never put any thing away, she always says I'm going to do it, she's for ever saying oh what? I've put it all away, from a she took out, she said I've put them away oh she never does any thing does she? Mum that was Rach, I, I have to be at her house at seven o'clock, Thursday In the morning? evening next Thursday next Thursday yeah er at three fifty, oh can't I go up with shut up and no alright, okay alright, I was only asking what's that? okay, I was only asking where you going ice skating? Plymouth Pavilion yeah how are you going to get back? er, will dad pick me up? what from Plymouth Pavilion? no from Christo Christo Christo Christo oh god he, he won't like that tough when? Thursday what time? I dunno time yet god it'll be hellish late I know because daddy works late you see and I very much daddy would want to go all the way over to Christo well that, what, he works late, how am I supposed to get out there then? well I'll shall have to take you out there won't I? Christo in that car in the dark he can't work late, I can't get you over there in that car. Don't do that, look its stuck right up now look I had to turn it off why? earlier on cos of that Rupert because Rupert was shrieking like a medlo maniac its like can I go to youth club next week? carrier bag, no why not? your going to Plymouth Pavilion next week oh yeah , the week after I don't know yes I'm going too I don't know yes I can huh oh god what you sleeping?, I would ah, it gets to the point where I you making coffee Jessica? no, yeah I'll make one though I'll have one as well please yeah they still haven't caught him have you seen this thing , see in the paper, that they publish a picture Take a Break, and he looked just like this, they, oh it was er, a wrong picture or something it looked just like this poor bloke and a pale wrote in from this town saying oh I know him what did she say? I don't know, something about youth club, probably if I make you a cup of coffee oh sod oh no oh hello, alright Well then how's school Kate? I don't know yet I want that erm I think it was more like, I don't know if its worth, if you know what I mean what the way she dresses or the way she acts? both really, er and the way she yeah, she you put butter in that? you don't no, you just put water in it no that's horrible what, you are just strange you didn't oh my god My mum just has black coffee okay?, got sugar in, any one, my mum can have the one with Brian written on it though good in it?. Right, did erm, do they have sugar? Not that I know of you don't? no you don't have sugar? no, no have you got a teaspoon? oh my mum literally has had here, you put the milk in we didn't argue today, oh yes we did, first thing in the morning Yeah I'm an expert on fish here I'm starving I'm not I'm peckish don't do that what?, when do they do that Thursday? yeah around there what about I don't know, it could be Friday, but erm what's that then? what when I got back? yeah well what time are we getting back? I dunno, it depends, could be about six I think what later than that? if I get back on Friday I won't be going to no, too tired yeah right shall we go and sit down? What this no I wanna go down town this afternoon, but I've got no one to go down with, I don't want to go by myself go down with Jo no she's sleeping at Sarah's ah pardon me if I, if I sleep some one else's house she flips and don't speak to me for three days, but she goes off you know, I don't mind that at all, but its just the fact that she's so hypercritical mm why don't you say something to her? oh she probably doesn't realize she's doing it oh yeah, and end up not speaking to her for a month Mm every one goes on my side now because they realize that she's pathetic Jess erm, how is thingy me bob? mum where's this coffee? oh its on the side do what? its out on the side no you got a problem? no yeah, yeah, no . Oh can I buy some more why not? no why not? like what? that top your wearing which top? underneath one for a quid oh god, I haven't had that fifty P back yet either no way your not getting it back you said I've got fifty P for that bag no its a pound, a pound or nothing you said fifty P for that bag and I'll give you a quid right if you don't want it for a pound I'll have it back have it back okay your the one who's loosing out on fifty P, you said fifty P, I'll give you a quid and I want my change back, god well Jessica I forked out a fiver for your birthday which I couldn't afford how would you like to be a thousand pound overdrawn? so I'll pay you back do I? how would you like to be a thousand pound overdrawn?, you wouldn't like that would you?would you? alright then, keep the stupid money thank you little with an evil face you then looks like you've got a nest on your head that wasn't funny why, I only said she's got a nest on her head and she's being horrible she slammed the door so, she gets in a mood easily oh well, that film was brilliant weren't it? oh my god I let it slipped today did you? I go, I found a wallet from a cinema , she goes what you've found a wallet from a cinema? and she goes what and she goes, she goes oh that can't be true, she goes, she goes that can't be true your just making up a load of bull cos you never went to the cinema, I thought oh or not, cos she'll think I'm lying, I was but you know, I wasn't I was telling the truth but I had to lie any way cos otherwise she would be more annoyed, I was going, I, say I go, I when, when, when we went to meet Terry and Paul from the cinema, eh and she went, she went oh but how did you loose it in there?, I goes what?, she said how did you loose it in there?, I goes what?, oh don't worry, I was pretending not to hear what she was saying cos she misses it after a while, thought pardon me, pardon me huh, huh some one went, don't because it makes a noise, put it down, no, because it makes such a noise when you pick it up pardon me what was I gonna say?, what was I saying?, so any way don't ask me so listen yeah erm to this oh yes so I wanted a fiver out of it, who ever handed it in must of taken a fiver and gone off with it out of what? my wallet you didn't leave it in there or any thing I did well then I dropped it out of my pocket, it must of done what a fiver on its own, not your wallet just a fiver no my wallet and some one handed it in and they'd taken a fiver out of it, they'd gone, oh, oh where not you know where did eh, where did erm where did you hand it, where did they hand it in?, how did you get it back? cos I went over to the cinema, I said my lost her wallet, she'd left it here, have, is, did any one handed in a wallet?, they went yes passed that over, there's a fiver missing oh, I didn't know you've lost it when did you go back to the cinema? I must of told Jo instead of you I think when did you go back to the cinema then? my dad went down there after work, last night aha, he probably took it out himself mm oh my god, that's not funny. no oh sugar that's on my school jumper, look at the state of that well come here and I'll sponge it off no really, really its alright take it off try, I won't mind tomorrow cos it all got muddy in hockey today any way oh no that's what, I've got cross country tomorrow, first lesson I don't want cross country ah Tracy , right, you know Tracy drew on my face yeah right, she was squashing me, she was squashing me right here oh good grief and do you know what she had the nerve to say afterwards?, I'm sorry love did I hurt you? I take it you and Tracy not getting on, are you or not?no, a bit and a bit not, are you ever getting on? mm, mm just some tea oh well I didn't think any thing on this page that would be that would be doubt when he gives them to thingy me bob I'll have erm I'll na I'll get back from the book cos it says men, men, men, men oh lovely, I go er a big box of chocolates, I think and I'll stuff them, like Rolo, no, I don't want any thing, oh I like those heart socks ah them one's them socks, oh I'll have that actually that's what I said its men, but I mean I'll have that one about, by the time you've read this another twenty two children would of died in the third world, aargh boo hoo how sad no comment dead and alive Jason London, who the hell's Jason London? I don't know one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, Neighbours going live, East Enders Jason Donovan and Madonna nothing much here er just see what this valentine thing oh my god, valentine's day extravaganza mm who's that card from?, oh god, how, how that card from?,who's that card from?, right, rule one, open your card as soon as possible at rise, place and spend as little time as possible studying the cover, it should be crap is that what it says? yeah all of those cards are puppies, kittens, hearts, flowers, and cottage, so look inside immediately. No forgery get in there girl it could be this genuine article your face lit up, ooh If there is a name signed inside the card you've got a ninety per cent chance of, its a hoax, no one signs their name in front of a card. Yes scheming bitches sign the boys names in cards to try and wind up you, but what does the bas got swear words in it no yeah,have a house valentiner and is eerie admits it huh right, then you've got that you done it you've got a card who ever said obviously fancies his socks of you pardon me,as you don't know who it is, follow shoot up and down oh haven't made a very good job of it, god that's rude, oh I had one of them, not last year Andrew who, or ? oops sorry look at them bulls look at them bulls yeah, huh, suck erm right ring girl, call me, your alone ring girl, call me, your alone oh look here I am, don't cry places to pull oh, if you want to meet that fellow he's scientifically timed and twisted and listed in order of ?ability in the pages you most likely to find them. Rave, club, disco, dance, any where that involves shaking your thing fang thing fang fang fang school party, introduce to your friends, the my mate fancy you technic, almost any where of the questions if the following are mentioned, I shrink, karioke contest camping, bus stop, work bus stop fun fair, you conclude in the kennels, you can meet your boy friend almost any where, but he thinks, you, lets see him dancing could, foot not got a date oh there you go ah you alright? ah my, aargh I've just wrecked it not funny, its not to me, its broken it, oh yeah, pick up any of those on valentines day, if some one can send you any of that stuff, what would you get sent? er a Gizmo yeah, any five things, like right, I put one, you put one, right doesn't matter if there the same, but, thing, right first of all Gi first of all that secondly survival kit laid with shampoo conditioners and and pineapple , secondly those earrings, no, no, that straw thirdly the art of kissing and how to give people hugs yeah thirdly the art on how to give people hugs fourthly er two sloppy love albums, approximately something like erm what, is that a cake in there? yeah, teeny weeny I love you cake teeny weeny I love you cake er red or dead main England bag erm, that teddy Gizmo mm I'd have that lovely feeling six sense I'll have them leggings yeah and I'll have them leggings and then I'll have every thing I'll have every thing actually yeah oh and I like that straw Andrew showed me how and I fancy that no I never I wonder if teach me that oh never go never guess what Jo did oh, I've just seen the word David , I have just seen the word David never guess what Jo did what? she phoned up Ben about Caroline going out with and she goes erm, she goes erm Ben does Lewis like Jessica? What did Ben say? this is , well this is it right, she's in the canteen, she's, and she's going right and putting on this really stupid laugh, right, and I said what's wrong?, she goes, she goes, she goes, she goes, right she, and iffy, this how bad she, she was faking , you know like this she goes, she goes, no, no hang on I'm reading it she goes ah I just hate I asked Ben if Lewis likes you and then, er all I got from his brother all the way home is do you like Lewis Jess?, Jess I could of killed her seriously mm, hang on I just want to read this oh my gosh oh my god my dad right, what star sign are you? oh god Aquarius Aquarius ages ago, lucky date February the fourteenth, were having on February the fourteenth that's valentines nothing yes it did what? yes it did Tony said no, yeah Tony said no, Jamie finished with Neil and I got my flowers no, that's my lucky day you pratt, not yours, mhm yeah aha does, it wasn't your lucky day cos your why was sulking no Jo was sulking down my ear, half the night, oh, oh right you know those hairy things, alright she, she still goes she does it all the time, no one else who has oh what was?, my lucky day was February the fifteenth, what was on tha ,tha , that, that was on Saturday when Jo was round erm, we had erm, erm that what?oh yeah just gets up to you about ten hours, right, next week in, from the heart. Are you gonna watch Top of The Pops? No, I'm gonna go upstairs in a minute, I might go into Rupert's room and watch it my room mm, alright, shall we take this up and listen to it? no don't listen to it, you have to just keep it running now all the time? yes, its been rewound about five times to tape over Rupert's swearing, you just have to leave it now huh play, play, play it back when the tapes finished alright that's the best thing to do in it?, otherwise it will just be all jumpy er, how long have we got, oh about, not even half way through the tape yet, shall we go upstairs for a bit? yeah if you like?, shall we take it with us? or I'll put it in the sitting room yes let's see, I'm sure you meant to put it Oh sorry Jack oh Jack Write down when it started oh excuse me see I've got Jessica and Kate talking in the kitchen supposed to do I just put general conversation in the evening yes, put that in the evening so that's when it is in it? and just start another tape tomorrow er, are we doing side one of that yet? no, you said you've turned it over no I, I haven't right I haven't you told me you turned it over no I didn't, I didn't mean that, I didn't mean that I turned it over I'm not gonna false out bloody conversation just for the sake of it don't make me laugh mm you, I want, I want just keep it, people will be saying things aren't they? what, er mum, its your responsibility if you want to turn it off, turn it off don't keep saying shh, you can't do it, I don't care, what you say your nagged at by your children you going to chinese tomorrow then? mm, mm erm, number one is my most all time favourite record Stay have you heard it? yeah do you like it? oh its alright oh its lovely why don't you buy it then, buy yourself some records its not, its not them, its paying the mortgage with every thing else with it isn't it?its not one of those stupid er what's this pillock, er, oh, oh he's the most hideous looking man in the world who is it? Michael Bolton look at that, look at that nose and that hair what does he, what, what does he sing to then? what does he sing usually? ah oh I love Madness some of them they've done this before haven't they? its been released mum eh? its re-released, best aren't they? you used to love Madness I still do yes I've been there, is this really music is it? This bloke at was selling them, dodgy tickets and those people with dogs out and guns outside mm, urgh, this is it, this is lovely I know this I think she looks like Jackie what I'm just think this is so funny why? what that tape? its all most weird that group she used to be in I know I used to like erm Talk like an Egyptian no er The Bangles no, yeah, no Bananarama oh did she? mm is this, is that then? what she called? ? oh yeah she's married to Dave Stewart wouldn't you liked to be in a pop group and appear on Top of The Pops? no, its pointless, can't sing, can't play a thing, I wouldn't be much good would I? well they can't sing that's not a bad lot of singing is it? its not lying it is have they? yeah, oh I didn't know that print it first unless they've changed the format oh this is like knowing you put N T V in almost, can't see the words yet mm, no its which so far has been absolute so far all he said is not to no, he comes with Nigel who's that your with?, hello, alright?, well no because I've got a back ache, oh how was your day?, well the Skipton Building Society are a pain in the arse are you not going to say a bloody word for the rest of the evening, he's gonna sit with his hand on his neck and I shall shoot him football so did I, I just about chuck the I hate it, I hate television no I don't I mean that I hate football are you talking about football on television cos all you can hear is ooh ah that's right I can't bear it, I really can't no its not the game I object to no its the urgh I should turn it off now because I'm not going to say any thing mum stop keep saying turn it off, turn it off now look its wobbly because your voice is getting louder well you do it sticky old bag , turn it off babe no you do it, its your responsibility, your the one earning the vouchers you are . I was in the dam bath alright then I'll, I'll get the twenty five pound vouchers you, er saying it is my idea, shall I? You got a pound? Why? ch I mean in change no where though yes no You've got to go cross country running today? Mm What? she's got to go running this morning oh no oh god why? I'm not doing it Yes you are got to do it I'll walk it, its the last one why don't you just get the crisps and the whole school doing it banana and, do you want all this stuff? I thought she was having a school lunch well I mean if its, if its there alright give it to Jessica oh, I, I need fifty P in change though for her, I just haven't got the change, to do with I'll take it out of my pound then when? when you came back with my yeah, but then you'll only have fifty P for lunch and that's not enough no you give me a pound for my lunch out of there that's it I know what, I'll swop that for a pound coin, yeah, and you give me back the pound coin and plus that fifty P, yeah? well it, if you have got a pound are you picking Jessica yeah will you pick Jessica up today? no, I start at half past three oh do you? mm I think so why did you take it?, its mummy's I didn't realise its all gone, so ah, yeah the tape, its half of it Just clip it on like that. That's what you're supposed to do. Yeah. You should wear it all the time like that. Yes. Yeah I ought to. It's still lunch time isn't it? That's alright. This is listen to it he's just so funny ! But I only go out once a week! Oh yeah! Well I don't go out at all! I get some work No, don't matter. I bet Matthew had a a good go at that blasted job as well. Poor old Matt! Has he applied for the same thing? No! It's only business. So it must be regard this? Yeah. But he he works hard you know! He really does! It's not fair really. And I bet it was his hair that put them off. Did he not have it cut? Yeah. Yeah, but you know how peculiar a lot of people are! Urgh! There is spaghetti in there! You're not saying very much. No, I'm not am I? Sorry! I'll start speaking in a minute. it's tidy shouldn't be that . Ah ah ! Do my ironing tonight. I don't have to go shopping but I was, I was sa knew though cos they were just like me at right age. Bearing in mind there was three of the blasted ! Rupert! Oh Christ! Dad must have said something to him about it. What? Dad must have told him off for Oh yes he did! Now that you mention it, he did. I bet he created absolute hell! Well according to He said didn't he? them he's got a . I'm glad he does! I'm glad. He needs, he needs er needs I dunno. How can he be so disorganized? What, what ? Haven't worn that red dress through at dinnertime I'll make tracks. Yeah, I've gotta go up the bank. I think so that one with the silver coloured beard. Who's he? Dunno. Alan. You mix these do you? Yeah. You never used to. I said it was disgusting! I haven't seen it! Why don't you take . That one! Oh I did see it! But it's absolutely But is it this one? horrible! Urgh! Where do you get that In th from? Well I got it from Peter. Actually, on, it makes me looks hellish here! I can imagine! You feel it. Urgh! Don't! Urgh! No I haven't seen it. I knew you'd absolutely hate it! I haven't seen it, so! Well I went to erm Exeter three times to try to find something to wear. What did you want something to wear for? Oh, for erm Brian's Christmas do. Oh yeah! And our do. I knew you wouldn't like it! I don't know why I showed it you for! Well ac actually on it's, looks absolutely horrible and just thought it looked really nice and I was , didn't feel comfortable in it all night! You know how you buy things and you hate them Yeah. don't you? You hate them. I mean I hated it really! Who bought it? You did, yeah. Yeah, but I couldn't be bothered to go all the way back there and change it again! So I'll keep that . You looked horrible! Well I didn't, I looked sort of reminiscent of Bet in Coronation Street, Jean told me wo one of my friends at work. I thought Christ! That's really heartened me now! She's going I bet that she looked a state ! Yeah, she looked a state but she looked she's got two dogs and all her shoes have got rather attractive, as she says, V-shaped in the back of her shoe by these dogs and she comes in and she goes look! The new shoe! And I she told me that she can I come out and play Cherry and things like that, she's so funny! We have such a laugh if she works there. If Moira's about she goes absolutely loopy then at Gwen! And we're together co she's singing erm that that song, you know that, that really groovy, that ah ah, ah ah ah, ha ha ha like that one goes. And we si and we sing it upstairs and she goes wandering up the stairs and we hide in the airing cupboard ! It's so funny! It really is hilarious! One more It really is! And we go er,tha that's it,! Oh we've got it down to absolute fine art now! And we can now slap our knees as well! Like this. Really good! this morning innit? But she is You what? She is lovely! In fact we got Yeah. Thank you. a car seat a week ago, it was an absolute, I could not stop laughing it was so funny! What her house? Yeah. There's no control! No. . All these people have tried out for the new series. Eh? All these people I know will be trying out for the new series. I know! Oh it's . I know. She phoned them up. Is this all dry? I dunno. No just washing machine. Oh I dunno, it's the tumble dryer as well isn't it? It's a joke! She has to have the busy You what? You what? I can't hear what you're saying! I miss . We do alright on our own don't we? I know. I'm dubious about the spook! When he hits the light . If Pippa got home from the alright Yeah I'm here here all day. It tastes horrible! It's quite tasty! No, it's alright! Don't bloody spit in it or I'll slaughter you! I probably won't! Well, don't have it then! Oh it smells alright. Gonna feel dirty with all this ironing in in't it? Put in a bowl or put it in a plastic Best thing to do i is that mug in there, the er big mug? Big mug? No, in the, in the cupboard! Don't get bloody stroppy! Why do I wanna put it in the big mug for? I don't wanna drink it! Well look, cos the sooner I've found it then! I'm glad I bought those tights when I did. I'll stick your tights out as well. Oh have you? Are they alright? Yeah. Fine, thanks. There's one pair of them that's got a hole in it though. On the toe? No. Oh no, On the knee. I just got a pair with a hole in the toe. What about ? Urgh! Can you get rid of that meat. It's alright look, in that light! It doesn't! Yes it is! It's alright in that light as soon as I put it on the line it looks peculiar! It's alright in this light, look! No it's not! Look at it! It's completely ruined! Oh! God I haven't got many bloody skirts or anything! Well I don't understand what it is don't know why you really needed it! You didn't have a tissue up it did you? No! You had a tissue up that! No! Oh! You had a tissue up it, in there! In the sleeve. That's what it is! It's a tissue. Look! Oh! Oh! What a, blast! There. Cos you do agree with me it is? I suppose it means buying you one now doesn't it? yeah. I told you when you emptied the pockets Yes mum! to there. But that isn't pockets! It's the sleeve. Yeah, but I get the bla bloody blame for it then! And I get the nightmare! Come on! Well you know, look! Well I And that's the only sweatshirt I've got! Look! Haven't got any jumpers! The tissue, look what you've done to it! I know what I've done to it! I've got one jumper, one sweatshirt! I'll get it off if you'll shut up! Well! Well, it's your bloody fault! Is it? And I get the what have you done to you know I'm not very good at bloody washing anyway! Your mother behind you. You what? I just love saying it again ! I know! Ooh! I feel really as if I ought to start flying through this awful mess! Want to get it all sorted out. Just eat something! Sit down mum! Read the paper! No I don't want to eat anything! Well read the paper! Bop! Shall I turn that tape off? Oh yeah! Better had. What have you bloody done to it? You felt alright before. Eh? You felt alright when you went. Oh quarter to two! You felt alright when you left? Yes! Just er Just car sickness is it? Yeah but she never had it before ! No, I never have! been to the pub! Well I ain't been all that well recently. She's been in the pub! She ain't been in the pub Been in the pub boozing! drinking has she? Singing it was! All She all that booze! Only had Was she? four pints! It was about four pints of . She was well into her drink with us so you couldn't stand up! Yeah, go on, you know! You see all our She could don't know she could stopped of seen some of us! Ah ah! So worried about Carl! Cheerio! Alright then! I'll see you later! I wanna go out here. I've done my I just couldn't stop! Ah ah! Oh no, she enjoyed it Ah, I am sorry! so much! Oh no! She Come on in and and change all your clothes. There you are then! And you can Oh, no no no! Right then, I'll see you ! Just wash . Er, disinfectant smell . Alright. You rotten! Brilliant that was! You rotten! Alright You're rotten! Wash the duvet out. Ooh no! Ooh God it's freezing! Isn't it sad though? They only tell you about that bit. Yes! I think there's erm a lot of bugs Well it's awful! going round aren't there? Oh that's Horri ooh and it just stank and it's a bit greasy and It is very heavy! It is! Yeah! I think it's Yeah! very greasy! I thought as soon as I looked at it. I mean I daren't say anything That's right ,! Your steak is greasy! But it's greasy It is! isn't it? It's all the er fat floating on top! It's horrible! Urgh! God! If that's not greasy! I said I've been out here for about twenty minutes I better go back in. What's the time? Three nearly quarter past three. Blimey, you're a bit early today! Who me? Yeah! That's alright, yeah. It's a very sensitive microphone. It's not picked up this. Gosh, look at this! Yeah! I, can I come here isn't it? I wasn't gonna say got to take the money then haven't you? Yeah. Poor old Arthur! I'm very, very, sorry about that! Poor old Arthur! Yeah , I just got , when she said this morning I thought oh I didn't want him to pass on . Cos Tuesday, he was really bad on Tuesday weren't he? They got the erm do you watch last night then?? What for Arthur? Yeah. Oh! He really is grumpy though isn't he? Lawrence , Lawrence is this the skirt that Lawrence bought with it? Oh God it's ever such a high waist! Isn't it? Ah. But is it is it detachable round Yeah! there? Yeah! Yeah. Oh! I haven't tried it. Oh it's nice! Well I've still got my stomach to lose I've Oh it's very slimming though isn't it? Er maybe, Oh it'll look really good with that!slimming! I went into New Look and they had some lovely things in there this morning! I was very tempted to buy a pair of trousers. I I saw a pair, a baby , twenty five reduced to I think it was ten ninety nine and it's in my size. It's really long Yeah. you know when, I've always wanted one but I thought no I haven't got the money just now. Well I saw a pair of trousers in there and they were about erm four pounds fifty and shirt which was one pound fifty! So you could make a really nice outfit I said that for what? Six six seventy. You can get something for four ninety nine. Whereas you can't Is that all? Yeah. Cor! It's just having the money isn't it? And th Yeah. and the effort to try it on. Well aren't you going to say anything then? Twinkle? Come along! Yes I say, Yes! If we get there. Well I bet they fed up today? I bet they do! want to know make up today! Said they're all wearing to the party we gotta go somewhere. It mightn't be a bit windy for her? And it's hot. Yeah she had a big she had a big coat on she had a big coat Why? on and erm shut in that car just wondering i , the heat might have got to her I wonder? You know, if you're shut in the car Was it a big coat? I think they said they're gonna chuck it in the bin! Chuck her coat in the bin? Yeah! They'd put it in the boot of the car and she said chuck it! I don't know if they've done it ! Unless, unless of course they take it home and wash it and bring it back again they might . She's crazy! She told them to chuck it! I bet she's getting upset now isn't she? Yeah. Seven. Well, well it was his didn't she ? Didn't she? Oh yeah! Yeah. You're not, are you? I am! I'm proper ! Yeah I am! Bloody I am sometimes! Why, why what makes you say that? Because I I think when you play back that tape I am really on tape! Where were you born then? Histon. Were you? Mm. The same area as you. You were born up there? Well no, Cirencester, also then. There'll be enough of clashing of dishes ! It's a shame about Arthur though isn't it? I'm very sad about that! He took so long though didn't he? Yeah and It's terrible! He knew th I kept thinking Poor old Arthur! about him last night. I'll toast . So boiled eggs for these God! I couldn't believe it! Boiled eggs or scrambled eggs it's up to you. Oh my God! Boiled eggs are a nightmare! Yeah, cos unlike Scrambled eggs. the staff that's ! Scrambled's worse beca Scrambled's alright. Let's do a scrambled egg. Right. Oh! It's my go. It's out there. What's wrong with Vera then? Dunno! What's wrong with Vera? She's having Sunday off. It's not again actually, she's got a cold again. And another one coming out in a cold. Do you know last er, Saturday Emma found er Helen in the staff and I had about fifteen hundred ! What? But I I mean she was noted It's alright, nobody knows anything about us or anything she's perfectly She was working in the er cupboard so I just pu I just put in the key because when Barbara come in she didn't lock it you see. I wa I usually and then lock it and th and when there was visitors she opened up and she left the front door wide open and in there rummaging around! What doing? And what was she doing? Well I don't know. I don't know if she was just wandering around, but, you know and erm I went up to, went and got the keys and then went and locked the door again. Yeah. Dodgy! Mm. I always felt . I did bring it er with those cutlets. So go on then! No, no you can go through! No go in and talk to them! Hello! Ooh hello! Hiya Trudy! Hello! Hello Connie! How are Hello. you? How are dear? Well, I'm in better once, I've been very, very poorly indeed! You enjoyed it I hope? But very Is your hearing aid on? No, I'm looking for my two daughters. They're supposed to have But they won't be appeared. Erm it's rabi what is it today, Friday? Friday. Well didn't one come yesterday? Yes. Connie! Yeah , and erm the other one was supposed to come Thursday. One's coming tomorrow. And then there's another one coming Saturday. Yeah, tomorrow. Hello! Take take Hello Lily! Hello And then you're going away for the weekend? Yes. Yes. I'm going away for the weekend. Sorry? Yeah. Yes. You getting one of your good home? So I sit here and wait? You sit here and wai ooh they're not coming today! No. No. And er, you know those I've got two other bags,yo Yeah, your two handbags. They're upstairs in the tower. Alright. And they got the cough, the be er sweets in. Right okay. I'll go and try and sort that out for you then, alright? What dear? I'll sort that out for you! Right. Okay? I keep coughing like that. Oh alright then. Are you in charge or Yes Mary? Th the fire,the those feet are catching in that it's not being used you might just as well switch it off. The little fire over there? Yes. Alright then. See I meet other people's Mm. er children. Alright? Yes. Okay. You got sweets is it? Would you know she got a box of tissues by her bed. Alright . You don't? No, no, no! It's not you. No. Alright. Yeah. A box of tissues near by the bed. I'll go and have a look in a minute, okay? If you don't mi , only I bought a box she hasn't got any I just wonder I I'll get some more. I see, yes! She does ask for some sometimes. She says can I have a tissue so And she hasn't got a box by her bed cos I bought her some the other day and she doesn't know. Right ! Okay. What's, what's the joke? You can hear a joke and see the funny side can't you? Only I asked her just now Yeah. said where's your tissues? Yeah. I don't know. And I just wondered are they by her bed that's all. Right ! Sorry, I've been laughing in the kitchen you see, that's what it is! That's alright. It's not No. you! No, alright Right, I've just gotta turn this off here. Only I just thought, you know, is she getting any then I'll Yeah. I think I'll bring, get some Yeah. more. I'll go and have a look now, okay? If you don't mind. Right. You alright Ivy? Eh? You alright? No , I can't breathe! Your alright. Ooh Christ, ain't you cold! Eh? Oh dear! I know I've been working. I know! You alright? No I'm not! I can't breathe! I'll have a word with Fiona. Turn that Will you? Thank Yep! down you. Yeah, I've turned it off Trudy. Did you? Oh bless you love! Yep! I don't think that we need it on . Are you alright Mary? Mm. I turned it off for you. Yeah, just a bit You alright? Yes dear! Thank you. Good! I'm not here for the weekend now. Ya I thought you was gonna say I'm not here! I am here! But I'm not! No I'm not here for the weekend so I'll Go see you all on are you go gonna be away are you fo for a day or whatever? Well, it's my break. Yeah. You need Yeah. it dear! Oh I do don't I? Yes you do. I do work very hard! You deserve it do you? I do! Yes you do! Well we hope you enjoy it! Thank you very much Trudy! Been nice won't it for you? Yeah! So I'll be back on Monday. Okay dear. Alright? I'll see you We'll miss you! Yes! Ah will you? Yes, course we will! Ah! That's nice ! That's very nice! Alright Olive? Alright dear? Okay, I'll see you on Monday. Ooh ooh ooh! And you're co Am I cold? Ooh no! Everyone thinks I'm cold. Oh, what's this? Dear, dear! What's this? Something to This? Oh this is Cherry's! to hear with or No, it's just Cherry's I'm borrowing it for a while. Oh I see! Well Yeah. Okay? Yeah. Can you see Fiona. Okay, I'll go and get Fiona. Fiona! Ivy wants to see you. Ivy ? Yeah. What about? Shall I stop it? Or shall I Yes. last night, did you enjoy it? Yeah it was really good! Mm mm. Is bathroom in a mess? Dunno. What's the date today? Twenty second no! Yeah, the twenty second. Well how I'm supposed to sleep with him playing music that loud I really don't! Sounds like it's in my bedroom! Right. Eh? Bad was it? Ow! Ow! Ow! Ow! Ow! Oh I'm so tired Matthew ! I really am exhausted! So am I. Are you still erm going to Bristol on Monday? Dunno. No? I dunno. Doubt it, why? I just wondered. Why? I just wondered! What's he gone to Bicktons for? Well erm he's got to get references for this er Rupert, turn it down a bit please ! Get references for this er trip Oh yeah! to er Australia. Do you think it's gone cold? Bet that bathroom's in a hell of a mess innit? No. Were you frightened trying to get in? Not at all. You weren't scared or anything? No! I'd have been terrified somebody was gonna come out and jump on me! I was a bit worried when we were trying it on with the passes. Rupert! Rupert ! What? Don't have to shout ! Well I was worried about you not hearing me! There's some che there's some tea down here. I would have been very concerned that some great big hairy bouncer would come leaping out at me! Anyway, it was a bit weird cos we had to go with parties cos they're all they're all black and they're all about six and a half feet tall you know! And they don't take any crap from anyone,I tell you ! Don't they? Oh oh oh! I said , I said we've been doing boundaries for the trial park today and they ran out of passes and gave us these and said they'd be alright. And he goes, er I'm not sure ah, and he nearly let us in there and then but he had to go and see somebody else and he said tell them to go away! So we had to go away ! That was the first attempt? That's the first time and then we and then we were still around the back and we darted up over these banks Ha! and into these trees and where we were up there no one could see us and we could see the place, so we would see all the gaps in the fences. So we planned out our next move and went just went down and did it! Oh God! Next to the ! Sounds li like the S A S! Finally did it then? Mm. Took us about ten minutes. Well you're very brave! I wouldn't do it! I'd be frightened to death! See and all that screaming and all that aggravation could have been avoided if you'd have known you were going to get in. Well I mean that's him isn't it? Noisy for that reason. Well Dad and Sophie told him exactly what, what he was like and everything thought oh my God! Gonna be trouble here! So a big argument was there? What? Was there a big argument was there? I'll say! He went berserk! What, all because he couldn't go out? Yep! It's just because he couldn't go out anywhere, he couldn't erm he couldn't do what he wanted! Pathetic behaviour that is innit? Mm! It's embarrassing isn't it? He nearly stamped his feet! Now I want to know the truth about this coat business,I won't say anything to him don't worry ! Just tell me. Mum, he swapped it with Neil! I don't know anything else! Just look at you, you're ! Yeah but he turned round and you went I didn't notice him do it! Cor! It's a nice coat isn't it? It's alright. Quite hideous colours though innit? You're really suspicious aren't you? You really are! Well that was the bit, he went ah ha ha! Like that after yo I know he did cos that had, listen if you were lying to me, I don't wa I don't like being lied to because I Lying to you! I believe everything everybody, everybody I'm not lying to you! say! Even if I was I'm not gonna go and blurt out something that I'm not supposed to, but that's not the case anyway! But if it was, I'm not going to am I? He swaps his coat with Neil. Just sad! Yes, but are you telling me the abs absolute and utter truth? I'm sure you are. Oh well I've told you it three times now! I'm sure you are. Have I got some socks? Just think, I am, I am your mother. I know you are mother! I don't know whether there are any or not. It's alright I can see some from here. I feel so cold! I must go and do some work! You alright for tonight? weekend. Brian isn't gonna come home until half past three this afternoon. Why? Eh? Why? Well he's just working isn't he? Never seems to stop does he? Not really. You in that raft race? What? You in that raft race? I dunno. I dunno . I am! There's me Jodie, Karen and Jo. was down in thing with Tim I hope you realize ? Ah, I dunno. It's a make your own raft. I know. You gotta do it? Go on! It'll be a hellish laugh! I know. Oh if Melanie will go Good morning! I know ! And If I get wet I'll scream! I know. Ah ah ah ah! And I'll say go on get up you're wet! Yeah. Extremely damp or something. I wanna do the team. A team? With that do it , seven of us or something. Yeah. But, you can be there of course, can't Yeah. you? Richard's doing it. Yeah. So is James . Gimp! Yeah, Clara's doing it. Yeah, I'll do ! Always the way to go . What I said. That thing's on. Is it on? Yeah. Oh good! Is it alright? Yeah. Just that the last twenty minutes . Erm cut this. Are you sure that's oh it's . It's a miniature tin! Oh well. Oh well! You'll starve! Have some bread and butter and all then! I haven't got much. You should know he doesn't have so much. Go shopping again. Erm, what am I coming out here for? Well I'm going to squash this little doggy in a minute if he's not careful! Timmy! Sit down! Good boy! Ah! Ah! Ah! Ah! Ah! Head down! Come on, head down! No love, don't make him do tricks! Head down! He's tired! He's been down the railway station today! Sounded like there was wasn't he? Now he's got his Shapes. Ha? Wanna Shape? I eat one of them when I was little, a charcoal one! I eat tho one of those things there. I've only brown bread you don't mind do you? No, I like brown bread. One or two pieces? Two please? Three, do you want a three? No, two please? Oh yes,for Easter. What? Gotta do themes for Easter. You can Easter? Yeah. I don't get Easter off ga cos more money. I'm not speaking to you again! Do you get Easter eggs? Yeah, Smartie one I do. It Well that's the only thing, I have to go with my mum cos I haven't for ages! So like cam Easter's sorted out. Yeah, like her eggs but Oh! Sue knows what's the Yeah. It's boring! It is now isn't it? Mm. It's alright, and it's really boring but it's really brilliant flavours as well. I don't like the Indian music! I hate Indian music! The reason is is because you can't even right, it's the only thing I like I like . I love it too! Yeah. But you can't dance at all cos you're just so packed aren't you? Mm. Headbangers do it like that. Mm. I love dance music! I just, mm cos nobody else likes to dance . Oh, that's alright. Cos you always listen, everyone, everyone at like headbanging just gets you used to music. Jo. Oh my God it's splitting innit? Don't look much at all. Except they've all had something. Ah? Mm! Ah ah! Very nice! Oh Jack go away! I don't mean to be horrible or anything but he really gets on my nerves! It is Rudolph Nuryev. Which is the only sport that I know. I'll just turn that round. No, eleven ninety nine. No, eleven fo , eleven fifty. Sharp. No, eleven forty nine. They only have them in this colour though. I like that colour. I might get one that colour. But, in fact, I don't like the purple ones. I like Mhm. black or white. Mm. Don't want the same colour. More like a creamy white it is innit? Mm. It's not dead white. I hate dead white things! Same as my Aran jumper. Mm. The wool in this No, honestly do. I would have to have something other the seat otherwise it'll Yeah. be really uncomfortable. Ugly little cow in't she? You're telling me ! Oh there's Mel ! Oh there's, Mel! I did that the first excuse and Lee, yeah, yeah office! He's been told to go to the office so many times it like yeah, yeah, alright! I'm going! I'm going! Well you know erm you know Charlotte? Mm. Well I don't like her! Yeah, you know me and Jo not friends with her any more after Mm. what she said. Mm. Well right, we really stuck up for her when she was in that fight and everything! And erm and Miss asked why we weren't friends any more and we goes well she lied and you know, she splits up most people by doing that cos they were trying to tell us the truth and we wouldn't listen. And so we would lo waste all our friends just cos she was lying! Mm. Don't like people like that! And so she's got it in for us now, really badly! And she's trying make us be friendly with her! Alright! Me and Claire from , yeah? Yeah. Oh Kirsty now, they're all great friends aren't they, ah? Mm. And then Claire got a bag and winged it round her head, chucked her on the floor and goes school, she goes I hate it! She goes you bitch! Then she goes then she goes erm she goes I hate school! And ran off! Mm. Who said this? Erm Claire. And then she came back er, just before lunchtime I think and then they tried to, they sat Kirsty and and Claire down, and they told them to make up and talk to each other and in the end they started having a fight! They just sat down, you know said er right speak! I don't wanna speak to her! You know, they told me, and the they were on, and they were like they really expected them to just make up and they started having a fight! You can imagine can't you? And then kind of Mm. making up and they just start hitting each other and that ! Me and Jo were well split up last night! It was so funny right, she'd have a go and I just sat there and yeah! Mm mm mm mm! I thought you know. Jo is actually speaking to me now. What's she like Jo? She's alright once you're there but if yo i mm mm if she doesn't like then that's it! Ooh I know. Now she's friendly with Melanie. Mm! Well she don't get either. I wouldn't make good friends with Kelly. Mm. Don't wanna I won't be friends with her. Why not? Cos she uses you. Mm mm. Right, cos she used me and Jo. She used to go down so she wouldn't get beat up, and she used me to go . Jo? . Wonder what they're saying about us? Mm. Gonna borrow some of my clothes for tonight? Yeah. What would be funny if we meet up I'm gonna fall flat on my bum! I go Getting along! La da da da la la ! I saw this gay! Go whoosh! I saw this Oh right! Right! I saw this gay with this girl called Christine down in erm Courtney Park, yeah? Getting on and she started showing off right, she started going er er everything! Da na na she was doing it to Matt like that! I talked, I goes it's not funny I goes goes er he worked in or something , showing off! Mm. She goes I wasn't! I was only mucking about! Yeah, and you fall flat on your face! Ah! Tonight's gonna be excellent! I can't wait! Wicked! Yes, you get some really slaggy girls there! Never mind. Erm What have you got I like your earrings! Like your teeth! Erm Oh yeah, you know! Alright. So be here, wear the cross, yeah? And mum said to take it off cos it's prejudice! It's only a cross! And mum said, take that off! It's prejudice! Oh! And a funny thing cos like we're gonna be with like Steven and Matt, bloody guzzle ! Ah! Yeah ! All go mm mm ! Never mind! You can get some really Mm. Tell Mm. them to keep away from him Yeah. and me. They can be right tarts together they'll be, stand there going , mm! Right, come on then! Mm mm! Yeah. Try Ben in a minute again, yeah? Yeah. No I'll Oh no! phone him at four o'clock. Another hour. Where's the nearest phone box? Down town?there? Has she go has she gone swimming instead tonight? When am I sleeping at your house? Erm wha what's that day th it doesn't really matter. Bit, excuse me. Erm what was I gonna say? Oh that's it, erm you don't mind sleeping on the camp bed tonight do you? Cos one of my sisters No it's alright. . You sure? It's quite comfy. Yeah, I like, I remember in it last time. Sl slept like a log! And Ben co I mean, Ben! I think was Jack was having me out! Oi! Ooh! Yeah. Isn't he a lovely doggy! Mm, he is yeah. All my chickens got killed ! Your chickens? You know the chickens we had don't you? Yeah. They all died ! How ? Don't laugh! Ah! But Give them a funeral? No! Couldn't find them, a dog bit their heads off! Er dogs, not ours the sheepdogs down the road. Coming in like one went Monda one, one went Sunday, one went Monday, one went and two on Tues one went Tuesday and no! One on Monday, one on Sunday, one on Monday and this Tuesday, and then two went missing Wednesday. Ah! What was I gonna say? You know those erm dogs down the road from me, that farm? Mm. Are they still there? Yeah. That's the ones that killed the chickens. They, they, are they ones, yeah? Yeah. Cos I can remember when Sarah and erm Sarah , was it Sarah ? Sarah . Mm. Sarah Yeah, right. Yeah. And they couldn't sticks Yeah. and walk past! I like Sarah , she's really pretty isn't she? Yeah. Whoops! Urgh! Morning ratty! Eh? You got a photo. Have I? Have you bleached the back of your hair? No. You look absolutely shattered! I know. What time did you get in? Dunno, about half eight. In the morning? Oh yeah, I was there! Was that when you got in then? I thought that's, that's when you got up? No, it's when I got in. Er urgh! Good? Yeah, very good! What music did they play? Eh? What music did they play? Heavy rock. Play. No, you Yeah. know, what song did they play Loads! You're not coming in! Ha ! Yeah. Your name's not down you're not coming in ! Not down, you're not coming in ! Knock, knock it looks like! Press record down and it works. and I'll have a look. Sometimes I think Can you take those plates out please and I'll put the cups down . I went Sunday. Sunday. Right. It's mostly these two. I think I can do that. Can you just move up Do I? Yeah. Oh you do! Right, well will he? it now! Right, beans on toast. I bet you didn't do it? Did you? Right. That's alright like that isn't it? No it's not! Oh I didn't kno I thought I didn't either! Whoops! We can then stop before the Well I dunno that's what's er Jo did with Dad! What did he do then? Dad! He Dad, it finishes at erm all his stuff on there. It finishes at nine are we walking back or are you picking us up? Oh, he's gone Sorry! deaf! It finishes at nine, are we walking back or are you picking us up? Dunno I'll think about it! What time does it start? Erm er well everyone gets there for half six but it doesn't exactly start till seven. You skate round the . Has Melanie got some skates? No, you can, you can hire them there? Don't say Melanie! Sorry? She doesn't like being called Melanie! Just call her Melly. Or Mel! smelly! Smelly! Smelly! Is that your name though Smelly Mel! Melanie? Is it Melanie really? Yeah. Ah! Oh dear! Alright then Melanie! I won't Melanie again, Melanie! Dad, call her Mel. Erm, yes. Ha! Why don't you like being called that? Why? Because the only time my mother calls me Melanie is when I'm in trouble! Oh right! I see ! A girl from my office is like that as well. But she doesn't get called Melanie because Everyone calls me Jessica don't they? Mm. Jess. Jess. Mm. Oh no your nickname, your your abbreviated name is Jec No, well it's not! Daisy . No it's not! Don't ever call me Yes it is! that! Don't ever call me that! Because when she was little she couldn't say Jessica her name was Jessica, it was abbreviated to Jec! And it's a bit of problem when you're shouting Jec! The dog turns round! The dog's name. Jec! Oh he did then! Oh prat! Prat! Don't call him a prat! Jack! Prat! Prat! Prat! He responds! Jack the prat! Jack the prat is a brat! He was very much black. It's not very nice! And that was that! Cos he was black. Where you going tonight Che? Out. That's a really good answer that is! And twenty five pounds worth of Marks and Spencer vouchers for nothing for that. I want you. Get a nice shirt. Eh? Get a nice shirt for that Marks's. I'll get you a shirt with this! You can have it I'm only joking! No I don't mind! No you won't! Can I get something? No. To buy yourself something. Erm I want you to take it to work with you. I won't be allowed to. You jus you jus just sort of general conversation at coffee time! Anything like that. No! No! Won't be allowed. Bottle of wine Cherry. Right. Everything's confidential. You don't even get lunchtime let alone coffee time! Listen! Listen! Listen! Everything's protected by law with it and everything. Nobody's gonna say anything or do anything It's confidential. Yeah, but when the when we're talking we're quite often talking about people and Yeah well talk about people! Nobody knows who they are! I just don't think I'll be allowed to do it. blow on it! Well I'm course they will! You suddenly got a tape machine stuck on No, be discreet! your desk! No,no not when you've got people sat there and you're interviewing them, of course you can't do that! Just the general staff! You know, just sort of general I wouldn't do it! I can't stick a tape machine on my desk and leave it running. No turn it off when you got yo go on leave it! Er and when nobody is there I can't just put a tape machine on the desk and leave it running! Well I I well I shall continue wearing it then. Fine! I shall come in there then they won't know then will they? Well I tell you the reason why I don't If she's I I'll tape, tape her alright? Hey Gail and him are arranging their next date? Who? Gail and Danny are arranging their date! Yeah, and I'm sure people wanna Oh well, cos he phones her up then. Coming in today. Is she? Come over to her And we to see her Came over and was there just now got to do some shopping or something. Yeah. What in Newton Abbot? Yeah. And li get his get his own or very small in that big secondhand book shop. Mm. Oh yeah! What's it called? And critically No. erm I know anyway. Yeah. And they were coming in to see this book shop. And the lady was And and they would have been ideal you Ha! see! They got a red thumb! Actually, actually when he gets together properly. Yeah. Where does Gail work now then? Torquay still. How's she getting on with Barry over there? She doesn't like it? I know she's listened to you go over there! Shame! I mean I cope. Spoke to Pat? I should of. Still it looks like make us a fresh one. I'll do mine. Mum! Mm? It's rude to talk when you're eating so why have you got the tape machine running ? Right, well you just keep ! Mum! Mm. Put the on there. In my what? In there. Ready? I can't swallow that whole! Take that like that. Ready? Mm. But it's gone out. Er, make me feel an idiot! I thought, you either do it, so you do it to here and I bet he fell for it did he ? Yep! We do that anyway at work. That was quite good actually weren't it? I told her that. Mm Mm. And that that was him. Don't know love. Yes please. Is that chocolate pudding? Yes it is. I know I'm doing it . Redca redcu redcurrants, redcurrants, cherry, lemon, vanilla, apricot, strawberry, banana. This is the ice cream. Banana! Yeah. Yeah. What will you have, banana? Cherry please. I haven't got a banana in have I? Straw you want strawberry? Yes please. Mum? What do you want? Cherry. Mum! Yeah. David was always getting picked on at school! Ah! That's strawberry and cherry. And the he goes and he goes erm, he goes coloured, coloured, coloured! And goes when I was born I was black and my grandfather's black so I'm black and get called I'm black and I'm black but you and you're Oh I've read that! Yeah. When you're born, listen! Listen! Listen! When you're born you're pink or something Oh yeah, when you're born you're pink and black, you're white green and when the erm what was it? and and your hair is the colour of and you dye your hair. And you colour your . Good that innit? Yeah. I haven't got any milk. It's not It's huge! I don't why I pay other people! Aye you! Cor! My mum is pretty ! I don't know who took you know. It really upsets me! My mum is so naive sometimes, it's unbelievable! I know! If you go on calling me Or oh oh oh oh! Sarah's got no ears! My mum just pulls her down like that and it stays there! What did you do? You didn't hear that! The water. In the waterfall! What do you want?lemon, blackcurrant and apple Well I'll have to do loads of erm Blackcurrant. Cor! Well that's right then, they're gone. We'll have to, I'll have to get . Doesn't matter. The washing machine on. Oh a little tiny bit left do you want me to mix a bit of lemon? Have you got enough? Yeah. Mm , do. Oh God! Why do you mean you couldn't stop laughing? What? When I came in there you couldn't stop laughing. Oh yeah ! Oh no, okay Yep! No I went. Oh! What do you mean ? But no, the kids had stopped laughing they all say she's trying to tell me off!! What else you gonna do? Or is it you both said be nice didn't you? Oh yeah you gotta get erm Oh is it? What did I say? What was Hawaiian so in Hawaiian pizza. Mm. He's goes oh I had Hawaiian pizza and he goes did you have pie and pizza? And he just laughed, goes no Hawaiian pizza and he just cracked up all the way through ! And all the way back he just couldn't stop laughing! Oh God! Mm mm. Oh my tie's just broken. There's nothing broken Okay. in that! Righto! Ha ! Dad don't be horrible! Dad how do you eat yoghurt with our fingers or just straight through our tails! It's the only, well you'll Yeah. have to have what's left. Oh! Can I have that? Press that. Oh! Your tongue is big enough to clean the pot out without you using anything else. Big enough? Down your back. Urgh! It's down the a V shape it's a tail. Oh! looks like th that thing you got left other day. Nursery School. ? Mm. Does that mean we're gonna go by peace then? No! Of course you can't! Don't give me enough at all! .You walking to Mel's? No we're gonna go Oh, walk up. Dad shall we walk up? And then you bring us back or do you want us to walk back or what? Sorry? What? Are we we are we walking back or are you giving us a lift? What do you want to do? Walk? Walk. If you're together I don't mind. But, it's alright. Yeah. As long as you come straight home! I know! Finishes at nine so, you know So you'll be back by ten past. Ha! Ha ha! Half past! The way we walk! Hee hee . Can Darren go? Yeah yo all the way down that way, all the way down the hill through the town Fifteen minutes maximum I'll give you! It'll take us longer, I'm sorry! It will! I haven't booked Thank you. Mm. Ah, this piece is nice! Don't do that again! Get off! When we went to the movies the other day everyone's white looking we screen ! Urgh! Mel. ! Do you not like, do you not eat peas? No. No. I don't like them. I won't eat it! she'd say. I have seen it. I bet that's the white. Another e maroon one! I've got I bet, I bet it'll have maroon with yellow and pink stripes going up the side. Oh! Can you imagine that! Where shall I that bowls? Anywhere. Come on Jack, be a good boy ! And you can What? Does your mum do them? Sort of. I can't Dad, I can't work it very well can I? No. That's your excuse. Rubbish! Leave it for you mum. I can work it look! I got my name down for pink and blue. Should of brought me them to see the I ain't going round with them, have you seem them? As long as you don't Melanie. Pardon? Thank you! Mel, sorry! You wanted to go to Silverlands. Yeah. Every week? Mm. Yep! We go up there. I'll leave that plate out. Ha ! Throw out the rubbish. Mm. What? I'll leave that Sorry? Just thinking. Why? I'll go and put my clothes out . I'm a good girl! Where's my Is that how long it takes you to get home then by taxi or by car? Yeah. So you go by taxi then? Yeah. Ten times That's right. by taxi every week. Me. Well if not, my next door nei my next door neighbour gives me a lift up. Go and give mum a shout please Je? What? Can you give mum a shout for me? Mum ! Jessica! That's not what I meant! You said it! Doesn't matter she's ! She's a It's gross! Who from? My dad can hear you shouting ! Mum! I could have done that myself! Don't do it again! Right! I've got the film . What film is it? Don't want then do we? Once you've made Mum! a correction. One. What time's Rupert's thingy? Just a minute I just wanna . Going the library? What? Is it in the library? I'm not sure actually. I keep asking them but they don't have a clue is what she said. These people are so ! No that's terrible! But it isn't! Yes! He's only just ! Where's the pins . Mm. But it might not be thirty two so don't ask No. again will you? Perhaps it was . Mum, what's the difference between these pink ones and the normal ones? Dunno really! Nice is it? What pink? I bought some this morning. I just went into the kitchen then . God! Dog! Come on then! Come on then, in you come! Jack! In you come! Stand there and you can er er cold ! I think it's just a different kind of brochure. Sorry? I thought it was a different kind of brochure that's all. What's ? Are you in here? Very good! . Want some coffee? Erm please? Can I have it white though mum? Sorry? Can I have it white though? White. White coffee? Yeah. I always do white coffee! No you don't you do something like that browny colour. What? More milk in you mean? Yeah. A lot more milk, about half. I bet you're absolutely delighted it's half term aren't you? Not really. No? Not really. Aren't you? School's alright, it's the lessons that are sad! Sorry? School's alright it's just the lessons ! Don't look very big do they? Don't worry about them. I'll . You'll be on your own. Yeah! It'll be you can't do this, you can't do that! I won't do anything! What's Beth doing this week? She's gone off to erm Isle of Wight. What? She's going back to the Isle of Wight. She's not is she? Mm. What, all week? Yeah. Oh no! When is she going? Today. Eh? Today. She's not! What are you going to do all week? Nothing I can do really! Have to have Jo over then won't you? Eh? I suppose! You gotta have Jo down haven't you? No, don't worry they just just gets on my nerves that's all. What? Gets on my nerves that's all. Why? Just does. In what way? Just does! Sorry! Well speak Jessica! Is that beetroot nice? Don't know. What's wrong with it? Why aren't you using a spoon?! I'll spoon it in! Don't be funny! I think you've run out haven't you? Yeah. Kay? Yeah, we haven't got any Ronson. I haven't got any. I won't be able to get any. What a disaster! They've already been today. Erm what's similar? Oh God! I don't know! Erm da da da da da. Rothmans got an R on the end! Ah yes, Liam ! Yeah I The number threes are quite popular. Is it? Okay. One sixty nine. We'll go for those then. And . Yeah, thank you. That'll do. One sixty nine then please? One sixty one alright? Yeah. And those two look! Yep! Yeah? Not bad! Seven pound nine change. That's lovely! Thanks ever so Sorry about that! mu , that's okay! Don't worry! I'm sure I can manage! Thanks a lot then! Bye! Jack! I can't hold it's killing my back you'll have to take him! Yeah. Bad dog! She's gonna mi miss the train in a minute! Really? Yeah, it's ten to ten and she's Has she gone? she's buying a paper. I hope she hasn't cos I've her bag here! Sit! Now, hang on a minute! Sit! Is the train there? No, not yet. God! Nearly bloody killed me that dog! I'm gonna sit down. You nearly killed me, pulling! He pulls! No! He really pulled me hard! I saw Sophie then. Is the Sit down! right platform? Yes. She's just going completely bonkers woman! No cos come on then! Over here with him Je! Please don't pull! Hey!! Oh he wants a good run. He's had one this morning! Where's she gone now? Where's she gone? she'll be up there. Sure we're on the right platform? Think so. He shot me down the Spar shop at about ninety five miles an hour! My back! Hopefully, I think it's late anyway. Ah ! Shall we have a sit down in a minute then? Oh fine! Je! Erm, when the er train comes he's gotta go over because he won't like it. Been up here before! No but he's i it's slightly altered since then. Oh right. then? I've had to buy some really horrible ones! Mm! Loads of chocolate! Oh that's for us on Saturday night. Oh! Good God! I know. How much were they ? Dunno. Didn't ask. now? Yeah. Nearly killed me that dog! I haven't erm taken him for absolutely ages! He's so cuddly ain't he? Mm. I took him to the Spar shop ! I must write up all my Mm. he's not Good dog! A good dog! Now sit down and just calm He's been down! he's been to the station before. Yes, but he hasn't been for ages has he? And he's been wrestling with this alsatian See if Jack goes towards the puppy and he bowled the puppy over ! Jack's . No just stop him. Oh for go Je! Jessica! You just get him over excited! Stop being stop getting him Look you've got the neurotic! For goodness sake! Cor that was a proper macho man I could tell! Would he be on ? Probably will hands . Yeah. Calm down now. Good boy! Calm down. Oh this one's only everyone Sit! said to me this morning. Lie down! Stay! Good! Stay! I can't hear what he's saying! Well Nothing. I love going on a nice train journey! I wish I was coming with you. I know. Just sit and and you don't have Five hours? Oh I'd love it! I would love So would I. it! That's already now. Oh it's packed this train innit? Oh it's a policeman! Oh no! Oh no! Sit down! Lie down! No. Don't harass him all the time Jessica you make him neurotic! Get all that for bloody I owe that back rent don't I? Here it comes. It's late. No it's on time isn't it? Five . Oh no it's not, everybody's moving! No it's the wrong one! It's the wrong one! It's going into another statwell so that little . I used to go to primary school in this on a train. We did once didn't we? Yeah! Look at that! Why's he going here ? It's fascinating or he's fascinated! He's fascinated though! Mm. We might see you at Easter then? Possibly. That's my one isn't it? Oh and I just found that . What is it? Found it in the Post Office. What is it? Ten P off. Oh! That's it. No. Oh no he's He's very good! He's very Oh well good! He's a good boy! He's ! Yeah, all fluffy and good aren't you? Tongue hanging out! Got lovely bright eyes! Looking very well these days! Masters again, yeah. What do you mean masters? Mastered to get into the race. Just gave it some thought, give it some thought and initiative and you're in! I bet, I bet he's scared I walked down this ledge , walked down the stage and there's for security guards. You cannot walk past them if you're going in that way. So we had to go past this little shed which is right up right up this stupid grass earthy bank right over the side so we could see quickly how to get in. Went right round the bottom of this field, looked round the bank and there was just a bloody great hole in the gate massive! Walked through there and got to the simulator took our jackets off, pretended we'd already been in walked straight past and we were right on site! We wasn't aware it was there. Well I thought, saved us twenty quid! So all ? We were going , we were in! We're in! We're in! Pretty good! So all that row then was for absolutely nothing at all wasn't it really? Eh? All that And I used my old pass to go on stage anyhow so Have you got to pass for the stage then? Yeah. I used an What old one. So those but Fantasia passes are very similar, I just turned mine turned mine round she saw it and went she showed me a blank yellow so I didn't thought it perhaps a different pass but it wasn't just turned it round on her. I bet your friends a will be sick then, won't they? I just think that when you're up there it's like the stage is a huge platform going out into the crowd, a long one! And there must have been about ten thousand there last time. They had one of those gyroscopes you can go in and you can spin round. Oh yeah! They had one of those in there but I didn't have a go on it though, it was about three quid to go on! Those lasers lasers that the . Velcro walls? No, they didn't have that there. A huge octopus,octopus -ish, had these massive tentacles that's going right the way across the ceiling! Video screens. Very good! They're all gonna be pissed on Friday cos we got in for nothing! Why is your voice so quiet? Cos the washing machine out there it's . What sort of smoke from the machine? Hiss! Oh it's ? No ! What hissing? Proper smoke machine. Oh! Mum! I've got to write to Bicksons. Mm. Ask them to write me a reference so I got form to fill in to send off for something but I've gotta write something. And I've gotta to, I've gotta say something to them. Yeah, well? And I dunno who I'm writing to either. Well, put the Principal. What should I say? What do you think I should say? Ask to write me a ah I know who I'll ask, alright.. Well cos said that this guy said that 's the guy in so I could Well then you I can have to send him a stamped envelope with the address of the guy and putting on it. He'll be more inclined to do it then won't he? Oh what , what inside in the Inside the letter that you're writing to him. I think that that would probably be quite a good idea wouldn't it, really? Yes? You must be exhausted? Why don't you go to sleep? this stuff haven't I? I've got things to do. I suppose we could just ignore it. It's a waste of a day isn't it, really? I'd rather be extremely tired. Saw Zac last night. What did erm, he say? That's why, I said I, I said I'd heard about you in the papers and the just said oh yeah! Was he embarrassed? No. Wouldn't you be? A bit, yeah. I'd be very embarrassed! See you've got that thing going whilst my voice is going. It's alright. I took it down to the Spar shop as well. Did you? And erm I took it to the park with Jack and he kept pulling and I said bloody dog! And and then er I took it to the station as well, but I couldn't get many other voices, they were a bit garbled but it works really well! It is such a good machine that! The mike on that is so good! What's he barking about? Where is he? Jack! Shut up! He's got his hackles up! Look! Why is he always barking? Just for . Speak to me . So erm did Dad say anything else then? About the trip? Not really. He just told you off for being a pain, I bet! Did he? Telling me to take my earring out to have my passport photos done. And take my earring out when I go to have an interview. If they don't love me for what I am that's just tough shit! Yeah, but I mean if it, if it erm if it means that that it might spoil your entry into it, it's such a sa small thing isn't it? Really? Eh? They would employ if it was just such a small thing. No pudding thank you! Could I have a yoghurt today instead of tomorrow? I really No! feel like one! No. Too expensive! What? I was gonna offer you a drink then if you said yes. I'll make mine if I had to! One of those old ones maybe, not the Tesco ones. Mm. Oh thanks. Oh he's just eaten my toast out of my hand this dog! naughty boy! Naughty boy! You should get more of the . Aha! I can't help it after that. Where's your ? Bring your down. Go back up again. Where did Poppa go? Oh dear! I'm so tired! You, I thought you are you just start getting the shakes by the window again weren't you? He'll be going to centre of erm dog standing out there. Let's have a look. I'll have that small coffee. it's up there look. Can you see it? Where? There? Where is it? It's there look! You're not gonna be able to do it again are you? Is he up there yet Jessica? Rupert, you still owe me two cigarettes! Yeah, I'm going to give you those now! Great! Would you? Cos I haven't got very many Ah, I'm so tired! Can't keep awake today! Feel awful! I think I'm going to have to give my job up . Why? Because my back is getting terribly bad! Can't you just say your back's , just have a rest for a while? That's the sa I can't! I can't go a week with no money! Oh, what you gonna do then? I'll have to work won't we? I mean unless you Don't be silly ! I don't know what to do really but just finding it very tiring! Here she comes again! Eh? That dog's the dog's in now look! It's a shame! A shame! Come on Popper dog! No! No! No! You've been out twice this morning. I like that jacket there, it's nice isn't it? Yeah it's . Do you dance then a at these things? Wha what a sort of jumping dance? What do you mean jumping? Ah, ha ha ha ha! Like that. Proper , proper dancing. Proper dancing? Is it, is it sort of is it a certain raving dance then or what is it? Well not particularly. It's just when music's being played like that keep going and one point don't you, really? What? I dunno really. Show me. No ! Why ? Why not? I'm aching all over. See all that bolshy all that silly bolshiness was totally unnecessary wasn't it? I tell you all those Fantasia Security blokes are a bunch of prats, all of them!they're all so stubborn! Well er Why? In what way? Just go up on the stage and just start just talking to people and suddenly they, get back! Get back! Get off! Get off! Why was they saying were they saying it to you then ? Said it to loads of people! Go on, get off! Get out the way! You know? Anybody from Cornwall there? Yeah, who? Neil was there, Chris was there, Wayne was there, a few others. I thought, I thought that Matthew was No he's not there, he's skint! God he's spent he's spent all his grant hasn't he? God! He's gonna get into some awful trouble isn't he? Mm. I mean, he's nearly as as overdrawn as Sophie and she's, she's nearly completed her course! I know! He just hasn't got a clue though! He doesn't care yo hasn't got a clue! He must be worried about it though? Surely he must be worried? Well I was talking to him about it, I said I reckon you've spent the you've spent quite a bit now so you might as well just go another get final . Three years! Three year course! I know ! And he can't he usually works in the Bistro in Padsdown, he couldn't work in there to repay it! Because when he's in there his wage packets are like minus fifteen pounds when he's in there! Why? Because he spends it all! So really he's got to get a job which is gonna pay the majority of it off. But I'll be down at dad's till ti till September. Come up here, then up to Heathrow Airport. When are you going to dad's? No oh not for ages yet? And you going to Bristol on Monday? I want to go with Matthew. Is Matthew going then is he? Yeah? T, Q To do, erm What's the date today? It's a dear sir isn't it, obviously? Have you what's the date? And she said well, I'm see that I've twenty second er I'm sending him that, mum, to do my reference cos they've gotta they've gotta have that. Well do you think I should write to God! Shut up! Eh? What do you think I should say to the Principal? Erm dear sir Erm and I'll put erm at present I am oh! Dunno what to write! No listen! Would you be erm dear sir would you be I, no! I wo was at Bicktons Oh he knows that! such and su , no he doesn't! He won't remember you until you i explain who you are! Alright. I know. I was at Bicktons which which year was that? That was the nineteen ninety year wasn't it? Mum! Was it? Is there any water for a bath mum? studying Mum? I don't know. for Have you had one Rupert? I expect so, yeah. Yes, loads! When did you have one? About, hour and a half a go, two hours ago. You don't like Rupert's coat mum? Don't cough at him! What is it? What's happened about Rupert's coat? Come on! You may as well tell me ! Come on! What's happened to it? Nothing. Come on Rupert! Nothing! Tell me please! Swapped my coat with Neil! And you're lying! I'm not lying! Don't lie! Bicktons study for an N C A What is it? Tell me! He swapped it with Neil! You're lying! I'm not! Get down here! He's not! Get here! Go have a bath Matt! If I was you. Matthew! I was at What? Something's up, you wouldn't do that! He looked at you and coughed at you, there's something going on! I didn't! I'm coughing anyway, don't get silly! just don't worry about it! Here are Rupert's jacket, cos he likes my jacket alright? Look,I was at Bicktons studying for an N C A two summers ago , but like ju , it doesn't really matter it's just irrelevant really. An N C A two summers ago? Well what shall I write then? Two years ago wasn't it? Two years ago. And I was at Bicktons studying for an N C A two years ago. An a I am I am , at present I am applying for a job on the Yo , you're not applying for a job you are applying to to erm go to Australia To, hang on! I was at Bicktons studying for N C A two years ago . I am oh! Ah, this is crap! Mum help me out Oh! will you! I haven't slept! What I wa is it? Read it out again! I was at Bicktons studying for N C A two years ago . I am hoping to Hang on! I am hoping to go hoping to go to to Australia. Australia, through in in S September with the whoever it is through the I A B A. Through the I A B A programme . I need a reference Hang on. You can't put I need Would you be kind enough Would you be kind enough to complete the reference for me? And send it to to provide me with a reference. Would you be kind enough to provide Provide me with a reference with a reference ? Yeah? And send it to the given stamped envelope. And send it in the pre-paid envelope to provide me with the reference,would you be kind enough to provide me with a reference and send it via oh my God! And se I just I just dunno what And send it in the pre-paid envelope. I don't know what he'll think of this ! And send it i send it in the pre-paid envelope? Envelope. in the pre paid envelope . What, to the address given, yeah? No! Cos it's erm, the pre-paid envelope is where it's going isn't it ? Pre-pa , that's it isn't it? That's all I Yeah. have to write? Yours faithfully yours sincerely or faithfully? Faithfully's nicer isn't it? Faithfully? God answer me! I ! Christ! Oh well that'll do! Yours faithfully Rupert . Look! This is ridiculous! The twentieth was on the Thursday Friday Twenty first yesterday. Saturday I need er, Bicktons address now. Where's Matthew's letter? Yeah, that's right! He went to work on the Friday wi Tape three B and I shall get my Would you like your Twenty five there of vouchers. Which I shall enjoy spending won't I? Aye! So say something Brian for God's sake! Where's the paper ? Just put on Japanese . Oh Joe! Look at his little sides! Oh my Sugar? Mummy? Yes please. Do you know every time I put a pen anywhere in this house they just disappear! Here's one. . Oh thank you. Sit down! Okay, three B and over to you! How do you ? Two sugars is it mum? Yeah. The tape's Mum! going. this thing. Oh are you? Ooh! I'm coming! I'm going! Aha. Mm. Is that seaweed ? Okay. Erm what's the date today? Twenty third. Bo bo bo bo, bo bo bo bo bo, bo bo bo bo . Will you say something Mel and then I can write your name down there. Erm anyway, we're going in Newton Abbot, in Newton Abbot choose our for the model. Thank you! Are we? Yeah. Well not in Newton Abbot actually but I won't To choose our own clothes? Mm mm. And then buy them? No. Can we keep them if we got them? Ha, no ! You go in and choose an evening wear Oh, I'll take Laura Ashley then! Ha? Take Laura Ashley. Go in one Laura Ashley's a bit sort of sort of, more mum's age stuff innit? It's not Well that dress Sophie's got in there is lovely! Sorry? That dress Sophie's got in there is lovely! Oh yeah! No, they gotta choose from sa Miss Selfridges, New Look, Dorothy Perkins Top Girl Yeah. Mm all them shops. What's this for? Modelling we're doing at school. Oh! Get a proper hairstylist in. When you doing it? March. No. Sadly, it's not! Hey, you know on Friday was there a ? Didn't go. Cos we never get told any more. Yeah, so we've got three weeks to rehearse everything! Oh, but you dunno how we're walking down yet do we? Yeah, think that out. We don't know how we're gonna stand. Mm. And erm another thing is that, we got the dress rehearsal the night before the show! We need longer than that! Won't we? Need about ninety dress rehearsals! Not that many! How about if your clothes and fall flat on your face! I'll run down it! Yeah! You're the one who's practising there Me and, did you see me and Sarah we went up and we went back down again. No. No, cos we were sitting down down by yourself cos it was the last, it's the last one people out. Everyone was walking, you just holding on your like a weren't you? Yeah. Thing tho , but that one where they had to knock people out I reckon the least you looked mm, the more casual you look, you get in. I had to walk normally. Cos yo Mm, so did I. Well ran down the bottom bit! Sarah, Sarah wanted you she had her arm like this . Yeah. They seem to have Do you erm don't you keep any erm No. No. You don't what I'm going to say! Clothes. Clothes. What about changes then? Oh yeah. Mm mm. Just some clothes, yeah? Yeah. You don't? No. Oh that's a bit of a ! I wanna know what they're gonna do for shoes and that, cos not many of us have got many shoes. Yeah! Yeah. I'm not likely for you to do it. E everybody knows that! Thanks mum! Why isn't there isn't any knives! Can you get me one They're in the dishwasher. I would have thought they would have given you erm something don't you? No, the problem is they'll be all but then they'll be secondhand shoes. Sorry? They'd be secondhand shoes because they've been worn for three days. Yeah. That's right. The shoes would have been secondhand so there's a chance they won't let us have them. When is it again? March. Twenty fifth, isn't it? I think! Yeah. I am going to be in the front seat! Oh no you're not! I'll speak to you. My mum wants a front seat as well! There'll be a great big clamour I sho I should think for those seats! I think it's hilarious! But you're very loud, they'll all going shh! I won't laugh I promise! No, you'll, look you be better I'll be really serious. So you would like to do? I was, I did wanna do that when I was about five. You did , didn't wanna do it you Je? No. Well I can't really with black teeth anyway can I? Well, you don't have black teeth by the time everything's finished! Erm what about these trips and plays erm what are you painting? Erm yeah, I've got to put it under there and then with the twenty . Have you got a clean have you got clean underwear? No. Well why don't you it'll be blooming ! It's a long time! It's only three days. It's not! It's four days. Three nights Je. It's very good isn't it? I need a . Sorry? He and I go . You don't have to . I'm not! tomorrow. I've got my ! Do you want or Marmite on Mel? I'll just have butter. Sorry? Just have butter please? Marmite? No, I'll just have butter. Plain. Can I have it plain please, with Plain? butter. Have it with marmalade on. Sure? Yeah. with some chicken. with chicken. Our chicken got killed! Yeah! Oh! I won't eat chicken now!. Chicken's . That's cos I told them . Do you know who Jamie is? You know Joe friend? Is that her brother? Ah! He's tired! Up here. Hey! What? My dog's not he'll get onto the table! He doesn't get on the table! He goes on to my lap. Unless he's really tired. Oh that's Jack's towel. Oh! He takes it out into the so I put it out Mm, yeah. so he can't get up onto the There's a hole in Matt's stuff! I didn't realize it was half term this week. Didn't you? No! Just gonna make it a lot easier with her . Oh yeah. Very kind of them! Yeah, but Steve said it just used to . It's always better having somebody though isn't it? Than them on on their own. Yeah. Better write those times down I suppose. I didn't have to pay mine back at well I can't afford anything really ! Don't know what to do about it, do you? What shall we do? Well to go I'll have se I'm not gonna not gonna ignore it, I'm gonna Where did you go last night then? Nowhere really. Nowhere! I was with a After that he went out! didn't go up there. Came home early didn't you? Up ah yeah. With Anne. With Anne? I felt terrible cos when he said he had one or two Did you? Yes. Who bought that? Me. What happened to that ? I think they're all er aren't they? Cooking on Sunday morning! Who is? I like that! Are we allowed to ? This time we will . I did go. Yeah, I knew I I re Up there you didn't no. Yeah. Mum,whe where's ? Down by the front door. Oi! Matthew don't do that! Well! Well then! If you had to do them when you you were Come on! as well! Well I didn't . You were using Can I have a look at yours? Just don't worry I'll be . I won't get anything cos you . I've already got one. They're animals ! Yeah! I've been wanting to get out . Like me, I always Ah! Oh you've started to spit already ! But that was . Yeah. Now he's started to take them. Then you , come here! Is this thing on? Hello! Are you on? Yes I You two could buy a pint of milk each today I think. If I buy any more bloody milk I shall go bonkers! Well yeah, I I'll have cereal this morning then if I do! Yeah, course you will! Cos I was gonna have it night and in the morning, no point Mum, yeah! buying milk Mum, I don't want that one then she goes back on the three,goes, yeah? Well, it'll be easiest won't it? Be easier wouldn't Yeah. it? Save me buying twice So have that one. So like, one is Yeah. I'll buy a pint of milk but I want some of that! Well go on then! As long as you buy the milk, I don't mind you having cereal. It just gets on my nerves having to buy a pint like Got cereal? Not . Don't know how the cereal's going don't bloody And you thinks of his mum! Well I just don't how it pint of milk every time then isn't it? Rupert does, I think tend to get through a hell of a lot of milk. Yeah, it's like having two lots of Rupert gets through all the milk! cereal! Every night! Yeah. And then has a glass, I mean, the number of times he , I mean I think he's the only one who drinks milk by the glassful! Should of got to sat here! Oh ! , it's nothing serious! By mistake! Don't you . I was looking at some last night and they had erm privately owned cottages or Mm. or whatever and they were a hundred pounds a week or Mm. is it but you see you could er pay for them on the ferry then On the ferry there. don't you? That's the only thing. Oh yeah. If you could work it out and see how much it would be Yeah. and see if it's any Yeah. cheaper because food's no erm problem I'll be taking loads with me anyway, which we would do anyway. We'd be on anyway Yeah. erm and it's then hardly anything on food. Well food's not that expensive out there. It's, it's the same as here isn't it, really? Yeah but I mean the fruit and veg out there, that was Mm. rea I mean that was cheaper wasn't it? Seemed to be anyway somewhat. Well they do it by the kilo which works out cheaper. The price per pound was the same, I think. I worked it out. But I dunno! I just thought that it seemed to be, you know? Anyway, we don't eat much when we're in heat anyway do you? The hot weather it doesn't, they don't really do mashed potatoes and Yeah. like Carol's doing and those revolting French sausages! Went into the supermarket and it said and it said pour, not it said erm pour le animal, well any fool would have thought that was poor the animals, and Carol said that looks nice, we'll,we'll have a pile of that! I said you read the sign on it ? Did you have them? No, she didn't buy it! Oh my God there's so much horse meat which puts me right off! I would never eat their meat out there anyway cos I think pony in it Shit! so I'd rather Mum! Well I'm not . I know. We'd flying through Hamburg. That's what I was saying, you're sort of middle of August Fifteenth of August. Well that's a sa , yeah, so round about then Yeah. there so we'd have we'd be going out , coming back . Yeah? Yeah, ask. What do we do ? Be sensible about this! Go on then! What do you want to say? What? Where? That bloke was so mean weren't he? That er er I'll put on there now. .gonna do some work Should have nabbed him the park though! after a week. Sophie's very shortly hadn't I? isn't it? Very tiny! Can I have a drink please mum? Stretchy cheese! Can I have a drink Ah! please mum? Stretching ! Oh! Oh! What do you want Jessica? Erm, lemon please? Well, fizzy lemon. Right, I'll go see one. Did you want one? Ooh, yes please. I can't understand that bit, below a certain amount . Shall I do those drinks then mum? Go round Sylvia's next week? Me? Yeah. Are you going? Mm. Going shopping. Oh! Oh look at that hanging Tuesday. off of it! Tuesday? It's always a bit loose. More clothes? Mm. Don't believe you! I really don't! Ooh! Ooh! Well why does it to me? Your wardrobe's practically the size It's only . of my bedroom! Yeah. The amount of clothes you've got ! What? Strange! Extraordinary isn't it? What's extraordinary? You are! Just lift these up. I had that last night it was really light! What do you say? What do you say? . Hup! Hup! Hup! Oh God ! Merci! Thank you. One thing's popped the sort of Dad look it's fizzing on top, look! as well. Oh! Try it and . I just turned it off. It's fizzing up!look! All this smoke coming out! Can you see that? What is? Mm. Can you see that look, all the little bits of tomorrow. Well, I can't just Oh yours as well! Look, can you see out of here, watch! I've postdated it, I mean you know Oh! What? Lemonade up my nose! Have you got everything but socks and knickers now haven't you? Did you ask Rupert if you could use his rucksack? No! He's not here. I haven't got anything else for her to take except that enormous thing! Look! Dunno what he's gonna say. I'll who Ru ? Yeah. It's tough isn't it? What if he wants to go Bristol or or something? Yeah. You know what he's like about There's must be something else you can taking off! Oh it's all in there now! Well it doesn't, that's not the point is it? I mean you've done it, you haven't even said you didn't say to mum or I! I did! She did! She asked, she asked Mum told me! me and I thought it might be alright, but on second thoughts Where's that little blue case? Did I chuck that away? I must have done? Blue case? The little weeny blue suitcase? Is it in your room under your, under your, mum? Is it on your wardrobe or under your wardrobe or something? since Christmas! You have to all you can do today is drop me off in, near the memorial in Chudleigh cos I got Yeah? Yeah, cos I gotta and se Oh , are you not going home? No, cos I gotta go and see a friend about something so Right. Oh my God! Yeah. It might not be a frantically good i idea if you know how peculiar he is! Yeah, he nicked my stuff to Cornwall! What's that? Lemonade. Oh Jessica! Squeeze the cloth out first! You've made yourself soaking wet, look at you! What? That's alright. Looks as if you've wee'd yourself! all over the Oh ! table! Look at him! Look at him in ooh! ooh! Under the table! Ha ha, ha ha! And he comes back Come on! look at him! Look at him all spiky! Ah ah ah! Shut up! A pussy cat. He's looking out the window now. My pussy cat bites back! Dogs and will turn round and hit it! It'll go schoom ! I'm not erm cutting No! the hedge quickly enough Down! growing up. My cat scares dogs! Down! Get off! Eh? My cat scares the dogs. I'm not surprised! We got four lovely He'd be scared if he was Put your leg down! I got er , approached. Mm mm. We've got four local dogs and they Lay down! and all the dogs don't like my cat! This one Lie down! Oh don't! He just dribbled all over me! That'll do! Yeah. Absolutely massive! No it's That one not, it's quite small that one! It's not! I'm not taking that ! Well you'll have to take something cos you can't take one! Well I wouldn't, Jack's dribbling on me! He's got a runny nose! Yuk! Come here! Look sit down and stay there! He's stiffened his lead. Come here! He's going down. Lie down! Does erm your m mum do baking? Does she? Yeah. She's a caterer, yep. Oh is she? Yeah. In what way? She works for a pub. Where's that? I thought she worked in a building society? Must have got the wrong person. Oh! It's the wrong person mum! Which pub's that? Royal Oak in Ideford. Oh the Royal, oh with that ghastly man who's Mm. drunk all the time! How does she get on with him? She's always trying to sober him up ! Sorry? She's always trying to sober him up! Oh horrible! Always drunk isn't he? He's a sweet old man though. Is he? Gets me nice birthday presents! Does he? Mm. Oh that's nice! He got me a ring a few years ago. Oh that's nice! I lost it though. I got my How's about dad? What does he do? A A man. He's the er, an an A A man? Yeah. Oh! And my mum's a postwoman in the mornings. Is she? Yeah ! Good for her! So it's out at half past five, in at nine I quite fancy being a postwoman! Out at twelve in the mor out at twelve in the afternoon, back at four then back out at seven. What, what, oh! Eveni what, sort of sorting or Out erm well, mum, in the morning she works as a postwoman and then the rest of the day she works as a, in the pub so Oh I see! and erm and it's really frantic though! Cos in the afternoon she does catering from the pub and then the evening she just works behind the bar. Oh! It's boring over there though because like it gets pretty boring! It is a bit boring over that way isn't it? Mm. There's nobody, oh it's just dismal! I hate going over there! Mm. . Packer is it, Packham isn't it you live? Hackham. Hulkham? Hackham. Hackham? Yeah. Bet it's I bet it's boring there isn't it? Six houses! Oh God! Jessica would absolutely freak if I suggested No I wouldn't! we live out there! Wouldn't you? Well it's , it's about it's about ten minute walk to Chudleigh isn't it? Love it! I'm never in! Mm mm ! I don't think I'd like to go in there! And it's about a five minute up to Holdam market on a Sunday isn't it? It's nice there! Is it? Yes! I know Her mum works in the erm Royal Oak at Ideford! Oh yeah! Yeah. She does er catering there with that drunken old devil! He er What John isn't it? Yeah. He was really horrible to one of Matthew's friends! He's sarcastic to everybody! Yeah! He said he was really drunk and he really hurt his feelings! He my friends we never go over there! Ha ha ! I think Matthew er told him to bugger off I think. Do you want that last bit? Can't eat any more! Split it in half. Don't want any more of that! Mm mm! . Go on you have it! Good! Thank you. He comes over ours at Christmas and he does my head in cos he keeps on kicking me at the dinner table! He's like a big kid! Can imagine! I mean he never used to do, I mean he never even used to do food there! The best you could expect was a doorstep sandwich! Yeah! Do you remember that? Except my mum does it now though. Yeah? What sort of thing does she do? Ploughmans, soup erm sandwiches makes she General pub food? Yeah. Yeah. She does toasted sandwiches, sandwiches Mm. prawn cocktails oh! Everything, she does. And John would be lost without her at the moment there! Sorry? Mum, I mean John would be lost without my mum at the moment! Mm. Oops! And my mum got seven Valentine's cards this year, I was really upset cos I didn't get any! Sorry? My mum got seven Valentine's cards this year and I didn't get any,I didn't even Nobody got any this year She got seven did she? did they, at school? I didn't get one! No. Ah, no I wasn't in a very good mood ! I didn't get any either! Mm! I go I thought dad bought you one. Must have been for Gail then. I bought dad one. He didn't buy me one! Why not? Well I didn't even realize what day it was! When's erm Friday. pancake day? Oh! Tuesday it's next Tuesday. Ooh! Next Tuesday. Mum do pancakes! I think we're gonna have to come home a bit early next Tuesday to make pan pancakes. No wo no one cooked pancakes apart from dad. He flips them and they go high! I just That's next Tuesday? It's in March! Yeah, well it's changed isn't it? It's ne not this Tuesday but next Tuesday. Yeah. It will be in March the second, third. No, March the th oh yeah it'll be March the third or March the tenth. Cos it's the day after we go back. Tuesday. It's the day we come back Mm. to school. Oh God! Do you go back on a Tuesday do you? Mm. Yeah. Oh that's rather But why? rather odd that! It's a baker's day. Oh! Oh! Ha ah! Ha! Ha! Ha ! Extra day off,ha ah ! Daddy, how long do you get off at half term? Sorry? How long do you get off at half term? Nothing. Mummy, how long do you get off at half term? Nothing! I don't get Ha ah ah ah! anything paid at all! Nothing! But that's gonna No. change I think from the with the we've got a staff meeting on the twelfth I think it is and we're gonna get such a bomb! I don't think you'll realize it! Finish that off? No. Do you want that one? No. You're bound to. Hello! We want just a week's paid holiday! You know, for his senior staff Jackie! who've been there more than my boy! We reckon we're Mm. ! just entitled to You ! have Lug hole! something, you know? Yeah. Mum, Jack's dribbling! Oh Jack, stop dribbling for Christ's Oi! sake! If you Go on! dribble then go outside! Go on! Go on! Go on! That's horrible all the over the ooh that's revolting!now! Urgh! Look! The dog! Is the, the cat the cat back there? It was. Oh it's gone now. Oh Mm! This all looks very nice! Can I have one of your biscuits mum? Yes, help yourselves. They still warm? Mind that cake! No. Mind the oven! Here are! Do you want another biscuit? Yep. They're really lovely! Help yourself. Mm. Erm, is Rupert back? Whe where's Rupert going today? Oh God! Jessica I do think that that I know, but when's he back? Not for hours! Oh God! Have to put i in that case. No, I'm not! Oh ! Find something else to put it in. Well your school bag's down Jessica! there by the erm No it's not cos I just put it upstairs! upstairs. And the black You're not taking that much stuff Jessica! ! Did you put any And the black erm take those two! duffel that erm Stacey gave you. Tha that's alright! That's it. Take both and take those two. The black Jessica. To put the school ba books Yes. in. Take your school stuff home It's alright! Oh yeah, I know what to do you know! and use those two. What? Had a fight over a stick! In the park? I mean a stick about this long! You know really hard! You know, not just you know end of it . In, in they go it's Ha! Ha! Hello! Hello! This thing's is going all erm frayed look! What? Oh the this iron's fraying on the end for some reason. Let me lo oh the lead? Mm. I'll put a bit I thought it had always been like that. No! Oh, put it through there. You put a new piece on didn't you? Put a lead on it, yeah. Yeah. So how could it all be like that? Cos I cut the end and everything to thread in there,. I don't know what to do. Look for a job I'd say. I do that every day anyway mum. Haven't heard from the council yet have you? No. It is still February mum. Yeah. I keep forgetting. You might as well go down there because you, you just might see something down there. I always go down. Every day I go down! And I He's got no intention of getting a job has he, at all? Really No he ne he never ever goes down! I bet he doesn't get up till about, well it's eleven now I'll give him another hour and a half! It's crap isn't it? No, not really! Crap weather! It's crazy! It isn't raining is it? Just, it's not cold. When it's raining that I find depressing! Don't you? Yeah. Especially if you've got nothing to do. Is Curly working or not? No. He hasn't had a job for ages has he? A no. Well there's no point in him working cos he just loses his I jus I can't believe that that can be true! I mean Annie, Annie works twenty four hours a we , Annie works twenty four hours a week in this shop right and the , she claims family credit as well and i i ,we if Adrian works all the benefits go under he has to Yeah but yo earn something like two hundred quid a week to to match what they're getting now! It isn't like that! It is! Well yeah, er okay I can accept that but I think mentally Yeah. you know, I think I mean, I mean he even to going back to college doing a couple of A levels wouldn't alter his benefit. I mean, do something, you know! Yeah. I could not live like that! No I couldn't. I'd go mad! Especially out there over that shop in Kings Dainton. He's got his car, he's got Jamie so he's not that bad! He's got his son and er Yeah but it's not mentally stimulating is it? It's not! Er. At least he's quite happy well I'll tell you that. Alright for six months but when it, it gets starting to think oh my God! You know, I've done absolutely nothing with my life full stop! I think I'll go up town in a minute I think. Go to Gateways for me if you want while you're there? Eh? Go down to Gateways for me. And get what? Erm I want a jar of pickle I'll write it all down. And not on an envelope! I'm running out of them. Well that's can you pay for a stamp for that for me please? Why haven't you got one then? No! Gotta send it. Found this huge piece of paper the other . Did you? Just gonna see how much money I've got. Nor normal pickle? Mum! Well, the proper . Just normal sort of pickle? Yeah. Loaf of bread. Brown, yeah? Mm. And, half a pound of cheese. Half a pound of cheese? Cheese, cheddar. Will that be already weighed up into a box will it? Well no,the they weigh it for you. Ah yeah! Oh! There's a stamp there. Hello! You coming down town? Are you? As long as you don't whinge when I tie you up, alright? And What? half a dozen apples if they're cheap Six apples. in the shop. Yeah. Cheapest you can get. Well I don't wanna get hideous sick cox's, I'll get something decent! You won't go and spend fifty nine pence a pound on an apple cos I shall kill you if you do that! Well I shall only spend a pound twenty four. Get rejects from Dorset, wormed apples from Somerset! Well which shop shall I get them from then? Eh? You got a stamp there! I know, I've given to you! It's alright. And twenty . I shouldn't think you'd need all that. Most of it's just . Where do I get the apples from? Erm the shop in Market Walk. And make sure he doesn't poo everywhere! Oh mum! What do I do if he does? You know! Pick it up in a bag Yeah. and put it in the bin. No it won't! He's alright this morning. Don't you dare let him crap anywhere! Wa walk him back round the parked cars. You're not allowed to poo in public places! though in't it? And they're It's not acceptable! not buying . You're not going to pieces of paper are you? Cos I would of thought, you would of thought that that was absolutely awful! Well it is awful but I don't know what you can do about it! Pick it up! He didn't like it? No, he's miserable but he can ge , he used to go ra ra ra and make noises . Do you know what Rupert did to him once? Down the Co-op? He tied him to some trolleys! Trolley. Frightened the living daylights out of him! He ran away and th we he thought they were chasing him! That's absolutely horrific that is! Trying to get away from a trolley and it's getting his back feet! Ha ha ah ah! Now well, ha ah ah ah! He had a poo as well. Where did he poo? In the park. You should pick it up! No, no one saw anyway! They've got doggy bins and everything! I would of thought you of all people would have done that you know! I can understand him not doing it cos he's a bit ignorant but not you Matthew! Well I do it sometimes but I think that's terrible of you! Ah, ha ha ha!thirty six. There's no way they can tell it's . I suppose there's nothing on television this afternoon sit down. telly down . Don't you think he looks better after being o on that food now? I haven't noticed any difference. Oh I have! Yeah. His coat looks much better. He's always had a good coat though. Well, not when he was ill you know that business. It's a blooming shame! I like those those little dogs, those little tiny . Battery's going off. Is it? Bad old one. It's flashing anyway. Yeah but isn't that with er the voices? It is isn't it? If I speak loudly does it flash even more? Yeah. That's right. Oi! Been down the job centre then? No! Nothing at all? Not really. I bet you that it's all grotty. Well . Where's Rupert? Over with Lee. Is this usual is it? I would have thought I've washed and ironed every single one of your T-shirts there! Yeah? I thought that It's cold out there today! Is it? Freezing! I thought that you were thinking of making a trip to Bristol? Can't afford it this week. Not now anyway. Was gonna go and see Sophie next week but I can't afford that really either. And she can't afford anything for freebies definitely! Freebies? Well I mean any sort of food or anything. She's said I'm welcome to come up. Yes I know, I know you're welcome to come up! But she hasn't got many sort of major I don't expect anything off her apart from somewhere to sleep don't I? Oh would you starve? Starve? Expecting to cook me food! Well I should hope she would! Typical man! Expecting her to cook for you food! Well if I'm there and I'm a guest if she cooked for her and Martin she can't just ignore me! Can she? I don't think she very cooks for Martin he's a Yes she does! She loves to say she doesn't just cos he thinks like that but she does! She's really adamant about not having children! Bloody hell is she says that now I hope, I mean I she'll grow up! it's horrible! She sa ab she said no way! Like that. Well of course she will! No, I know I mean I can't see her just she's old enough now to sort of have thought it out really, isn't she? Don't you think? Yeah, but she will but she'll have right up until she's about thirty I expect. Thirty five you know. It's only a isn't it? I hope somebody does! I don't wanna be an ancient granny! Nobody e , nobody has any girlfriends, nothing do they ? You're desperate to be a granny aren't you? I'd love to be a granny, I really would! I would always be there for baby ! I'd love it! But she's, they're absolutely adamant about it, you know. It's just, cos she that er she's going to be everybody's favourite aunt! No chance! She isn't half a boring person in't she? No I can understand her not having, not wanting kids for a few years but, can't you? Oh I can understand that! Oh yes! That's her problem! But I mean What a tie down that is! It's a It's a tie down. I know! Don't, don't have to tell me that! I expect one's not that bad. Ha, ah ah ! Ha, ah ah ! You've got one anyway, ah ha! Look vacuum! The dough it's the dough boy! Ah ha, he's jumped through the ring . Eh, ah ah ah ! Oh he's speaking to pussy. Don't, don't let him go out there he'll go berserk! You can wave it on the wall. She caught sight of the puppy somewhere. Don't whisper at him! Don't! Woof! Don't! Not there anyway. Oh he's going bare, bare . Ah! He looked horrible! I tell you what he looked like Under those a bil , one of those . It suits mm, yeah he does! Doesn't he? His top bit goes furry or It's horrible! Yeah it's horrible! Makes him look really unattractive! He sees another dog . I know, sometimes his hackles come up with another dog don't they? Yeah, but he looks really scared they go, the whole back goes right up and he looks . It's horrible!isn't he? Ha! Oh he's got bloody . Ha! Ha! Ha!won't it? Ah? No he's dirty! He's not, he's ! Shall I get Jessica today mum? She's away in't she? Oh yeah! Having a wonderful time Naval Club. Why in't she at school? Half term. Do you wear this T-shirt? Which one is it? What is it? This, it was blue, I think, blue at one stage. Yeah. Oh no. I think I might have this as well. Oh no he's dug up all the leaves! At least I pay for it! You didn't! I bought it! Bullshit! I got it out of my Foster's tokens years ago! ! Mum, look at the size of his shoulders! Look, this bit here look! Bloody huge! He's a monster! He was lying on his back last night like that with his feet, you know how he does Yeah. with his legs wide open Yeah. and we measured his rib cage height of his rib cage down to here, and it one foot five inches! He's got a chest Yeah ! It's ! It's ridiculous! Well he's just mongey isn't he? He's got A what? a mongey , a mongrel! Oh weird! He's got a big front and a miniature Look watch! back end. Mum look! So, too big Jack! But I think he's I don't think he's misformed at all. Misformed? That's not quite the way to say it ! Deformed. Deformed. Misformed ! He is! You think he's deformed don't you? No, I don't think he's deformed! Of course he's not deformed! He's lovely! Very, very actually I think. Did you see him dive yesterday? The bit where he like jumping on the lake they've cut away a bit of the platform so the only way you can do it is jump onto this bit of wood then fly, and literally he was like that, just going in mid air and landed right in the water! He's nuts! Blinking ! Bit cold for that innit? No, it was gorgeous yesterday wasn't it? Yeah. And it's very You and Brian were loving it! Brian said not too much today Matt,I thought bloody hell what do you think I am! Telling me to walk across! Is that what he said ? Yeah. He's worse that I am ! Both of you, you're both saps! Don't let him go in the water it's too cold! That's rubbish! Dogs don't feel that! At night see he can't leave him alone he sits there and he goes or something like that and jumps on him and gives him a I can't keep my hands off that dog! Ah ah ah! Yeah I'm terrible ! He's worse than I am really! What's the fish for? For tonight? Yeah. What is it? Mackerel. Is he, he's not even awake and it's twenty past twelve! I got up late today ten past ten I felt guilty! I shan't go up there cos he Unless he's pissed off right something like that. Eh? When he lied down like that and he was pissed off Yeah. not relaxed he's just Most peculiar. Yeah, like an S shape there. What's the matter? Yeah like then? This house stinks doesn't it? Ah that stinks! That I think it's still got it stinks! He waits for me to er go to bed now. I've only gotta mention, yeah I've gotta got to mention bed I'm going to bed now. Oh! Do you want to go to bed? And he goes and he's up in the bed, on the bed in a flash! He likes it. He soon comes into my old room cos he's gonna be straight up on the bed, right. Yeah , he likes, likes climbing on the bed. Makes him feel a bit comfy. Most dogs aren't allowed on beds. Most dogs aren't, some dogs aren't even allowed upstairs! Most dogs aren't allowed up upstairs. He's allowed to go wherever he wants do whatever he likes. Too right! So they should! Shouldn't they? Yeah I mean dog hairs rise anyway so What do you mean, rise? The hair it rises upstairs. I mean I, you know friends said it was, oh God I wouldn't allow mine upstairs because of all the dog hairs! Oh well they go up there anyway. So, but I don't know what it is, right, it's only a few bloody hairs! He's actually allowed to do whatever he likes. Gets his own way as well. Do you want a drink mum? No thanks. Good! Ah he must be ill, he's in the bed! Eh?not ill! What's he in the bed for then? Just, well he fancies going to bed! Lazy shit! He's only just got up! Matthew! Oh he's looking, a really fed up face on! What's the matter? Looks like he ain't got any front feet! I didn't know he had all those blankets how long's he had those for ? Keep him warm underneath. He's got a huge radiator there. Keep him comfy! It's a nice little place he's got there though isn't it? Yeah. Mum! What? It's a nice little place he's got there. Yeah. Look hang on a minute dog! Joking! Cor! Always used to say that didn't we? He didn't realize how easy it is. Well mind you we are very lucky No, I used to say that we didn't oh why can't we get one? Don't be so stupid Matthew! How would it get any exercise? Yeah, but we didn't realize that half the family was going to end up on the dole did we? Even if we did you'd still keep it. Of course we would! I did it didn't I? For ages! I used to Yeah I was working, I was take him out every single day! Lunch times. Two o'clock and I always used to leave work and take him out for an hour. I used to even give up my lunch hours so that I could come home and take the dog out! I used to blast round Courtney Park with him. I wouldn't go that far! He used to have a a little box there didn't he? Do you remember he used those little box he had? Mm. Do you remember wi the first night we had him? Oh God! What? Nearly drove me up the wall! Why did he? All night! I had to sit and hold on my lap like a baby! Three nights that went on for! Are these yours? Matthew? I've been coughing all night! Did you hear me? What a sight for sore eyes! Urgh! I know. His back,look at his back leg, look ! Er! Ooh ! He's so long in the isn't he, like that? Ooh isn't it, yes! Amazing! It is, like an eel! Giant flat eel! I'm dying for a cig! Have you got a light Matt? Well I'm gonna be asking for my alarm clock back off Brian, right? Haven't you ? Tell Brian to buy himself an alarm clock cos I want it back! Oh you unpleasant little rat! Guilt settling in, I want my alarm clock! Hey, did you say you lend , lend the one then. Can't you ? Here are mate! No, you haven't got any have you? He has! Have you got some? Yeah! First one today, notice the time! Leave it as late as possible! Nearly burnt your hair then mum! Honestly! Why have you lot got so much? Why is there so much ironing to do? Jack you lightweight, get up! Oh sick! The place is smoky ! Gross! Yeah, you're gonna have one in a minute I've been up for ages! So I'm allowed to have one. Your hair looks . Oh I'm reading that a minute Ru! You can have it I just wanna read it! Why? What do you wanna read it for there's nothing on it! Shut up or I'll keep it! There's no need to keep the bloody door open Rupert! Going to work today mum? No it's my day off! No. It's my day off today. Always have a day off Tuesdays. And all day Sunday . Listen we've got to write some letters to the poll tax people. I'll write my own letter! Well, I just hope we can Your problem's yours, and mine's mine mum isn't really ! Yeah, well I'm just saying you all have to write You've paid yours have you? half but we can't afford to pay even half though! I was gonna say, isn't, they can't do anything on them at all! They can't do anything can they! They can't put me in prison! Well phone them up! You've gotta get in contact with them don't just ignore it! Gotta phone them up and say Cos Rupert phoned them up you see. You've got to tell them! Oh shut up! What do you mean shut up? Oh don't start! Please, in front of the Don't tell me to shut up! I'm just telling you! You go, you've gotta tell them! Don't turn round and say I can't afford that! You gotta phone them up! Stop shouting! Shut the door if you're going to shout! Urgh! Can we shut the door? And bring those dishes down! Alright. Thank you! Instead of staying in bed all day! It's like a ball with eyes! A what? A ball! Go away ! Mummy made his bed! I make his bed once a week to give it a good puff up in the sheets. It's true though isn't it? I mean I can't give them anything cos I haven't got anything! Yeah but yo , it is best to erm phone them up. Yeah, I'm going to , I'm gonna write to them. It's no good writing! Phone them up! They don't want No I'll write to them! that letter! You know your social security I'll say look ? I'm prepared to pay but I'll have to do it, just let me do it a bit a week. Should you have any queries on this notice you should contact the community charges this section . Yeah contact them! Write to them! No, ring them! What if you haven't got a phone? Hell's that noise? Washing machine. It's broken is it? No! Doesn't do that! It's just not balanced. Have you got pegs ? Sorry? Pegs Oh I wouldn't need a , I wasn't there! Would I really ? Hey? Bloody hell! They gave you these as well? Mm! Why two lots? I don't know. Iowa ones these are! What? These are I Iowa. Aewa ! A E R, see cos it can't be Iowa! Iowa! No it can't be! If it's R, if it's A E R! Mum , it's Japanese! It's not English! Aewa ,Aewa . That's such a thick way of spelling it anyway. Iowa. Iewa , that's how you say it! Can't believe that there's more ironing here! It's ridiculous! We ought to go down the tip later on again. Yeah. I haven't got any money though. Anything at all! Got a quid or something haven't you? I haven't! I haven't got a pound even! Let's go down there! When? I can, might be able to stretch a pound! I haven't got, I have not got No! Listen! I said I might be able to stretch a pound! What you? Have you? Not for you! For me! We'll go down there though shall we? Yeah. Say look, this one's bro , broken I know i Ask Rupert , he'll take you down. Yeah. He'd like to. I dunno why, he can get himself a telly down there! Well ask him! Ask him if he will wants to come down in a minute. I've gotta finish this off though. It's good innit? Listen! It's crap! What ? It's rubbish! You like carrying me home I know you do! Wish I had a car or a motorbike! If I had a bike, yeah it'd be alright. Well What are they doing about this tax rebate then? Oh , dad keeps going on about it, I'll say that! So it's dad over this weekend, try and talk me out of buying a bike! Said dad, look I'm going to get one and that's the end of it! Said yes, but you can get a pushbike! I said look what if I'm a mile and a half from college I'm not doing that every day! If you er, also I wanna come home or something and you're not Yeah, I'm not gonna keep driving all the way over there! That's it! He says oh get a bus! I'm not waiting There's no bus! I know! He doesn't seem to understand! Well there is but I mean it'll take forever to get there! It's hassle innit? Have to go into Exeter and then A bus to Exeter and then E , oh I'm not hassling around with that! I don't like motorbikes mind, I'd be very much against that! I know you don't but I mean that's not the point is it? The point is I want one! I'm a good rider so our fox. He's tired! He shouldn't be! Why not? Cos the day's only just begun! Tired! Well leave him alone Matthew! Look how compact he is look! Leave him alone to have a little sleep. He's so compact. It's, it's only because his bed looks comfortable. I think. Starting to get miserable when he's not out though isn't he? Think you're well back now and it shits on when we go to bed and he's ! Your bedroom needs erm attention some Yeah. time this week. Looks really horrible! Today? Do it in a minute. you do. I'll tidy it up, then I'll have some lunch and then we'll go down yeah? Mum? Yeah, if you want. It's all over my back! It's not. It's bloody ! Last night Where? well it started a bit now it's hurting. Whereabouts? Right in the middle. What have you done on it? Dunno. I was riding that bike yesterday and it was alright but I si slipped doing that. Oh it's co cos you've been doing that I expect. He's awake!! Where's the old Shake and Vac mum? Oh I dunno! Erm in the bedroom? Is it in there? How much time have you got to fill up on? Well not much this morning I don't think. What different have you gotta do a, a tape a day or something? I've gotta Oh for God's sake! As long as I've done two tapes minimum Yeah. Oh no you didn't tape me making a silly noise did you? I'm . Yeah. Hello! What funny noise? Just doing this. Is it on? Yeah! So I er shall I make an effort to be But no, I've not gotta Yeah I hope I can get it chest of drawers, even if it's rough I'll paint it. Paint it? Yes! I'm looking forward to this ! I really am! does it ? Who? She was in something on . Is it ? Right then! I've done erm I don't know where that smell is in that but it's all horrible! Trudy's first. I know. Time to get dressed. Anything. What are you gonna have for dinner tomorrow night ? Alright then Roy? Yeah fine! What's for pudding? Rice today. Rice pudding is it? Yeah. Yeah, it's nice! Yeah, it does look nice! Cherry is there any sheets in there? No. sheets to the bedroom. I put them down there so you can Oh fine! Cos they're One of them had erm all over it! Had what? ? Mm. Been blowing his nose in, in the toilet. Well he must have done it. , yeah! It isn't used. But it's just really horrible! No, well just put it on its own. Well down there near the washing machine and I'll Yeah. check it. Erm yeah. Leave it and see if he It's not our job though! Roy! Ooh! We haven't got any of that Happy Chef cooking margarine. Happy You ain't? Shopper. No, it's not, it's chef! Oh sorry! Happy Chef! Well the other's alright that's er what's that called? This get the that. What? What that, urgh! Yeah I know! Which one's that? It was er ooh it's that lumpy stuff! Oh yes he did didn't he? Yeah. It went all lumpy in the thing! Mm. Now there's another packet over there. Yeah, horrible that! They wanted just carrots! They've got no pickle! Yeah they have. Don't I? Oh! Can't believe that! No pickle! Is this ? She said we we're wasted in there! Yeah. She got an order changed. Have we got any crisps too? Cos she's very, so I said you don't want anything at all? She said no. I'll get glass. What is ? Just go and get a plain That's on innit? Oh is it? Battery, that's on innit? Nobody will, nobody will speak Cherry any more! Er Out the way please? You liar! It's okay Sara. It's Vicki ! There's a dog in this one ! Oh well! I filled this. Well we can't all be li like you thinking Cherry. I can't he , I I I don't agree with that at all! I can't help that! Got the rest of that anyway. Why did you do that? People start having conversations! Got nothing to talk about! Lorraine did! You have to say how now brown cow! No you don't! No, that's not the idea. Erm Lorraine did it for me and er to analyze it, honestly if you can hear that Moira it's classic! Funny! Well I've been on a ship and I'm not very well! Brian's roaring with laughter listening to this! And there's Ivy How did she do it? swearing! What's this for? Oh that, that's Brian's What, whose is this? money. Oh Oh! from Eddie. Right, battery that's what I was trying Eddie. to get over. Has he gone Brian? Yeah. Probably, just as well so Ooh mind your head on that cupboard. Alright dear. Have you sorted what Anne said about the food? Have you phoned him up or anything or is he He's coming up on this. He's coming back is he? Oh that's alright then. He's really you know. Well he's not wi with British Medical. Yeah, he's not convinced you er we should be giving them . No I'm not! Well dunno why he said that! Oh! Right, how you doing there? I'm just so ho hot! Well open the window! Look! You ! I've got a lovely bunch of coconuts ! Go on !he say. I'll just have to . Vicki, ah you didn't ! ? No. She's gonna Yeah, I think she can Yeah! I get We should be paid for that! I get erm She should for that! twenty five quid for doing it. Oh yes! No one fucking likes it! I told you ! I thought you said you'd got a ! Why is it when every anyone you know has a tape recorder they immediately clam up? Don't they? They do. They do! They go , ooh! Is it going? Yeah. Are these trays being I'm not a to speak! Ah shut up! She's a devil! Just said that she wasn't , it's do , it doesn't matter about that ! All it's, oh it's shocking! They're covering you out there It's just general conversation ! No we keep on woman! Leave it alone! It's not there ! What are we doing about these trays then? Anything? Yeah, you've already answered Cherry ! Why are they ? Roy! What? This cream do you want it tomorrow? Put it away? I'm using the both of right? That's right! Oh yeah. Ya. What about these carrot things? Roy? What? No, I'll get . Just get the bag you know, over there. Eh? It goes in the sink . Cream,. I'm sure I've too much. Those there do they want cream? And those there? Those have gotta be scrubbed . Scrubbed? Oh, it's in a minute is it? ! You should hear what I've got it from the boys! Gone off it. It's really horrible, but but Leave it, leave it on you so I left it on . Oh I'm never quite sure how to right, it's probably stuck on one. Right. Urgh! That looks like something horrible! She's got a ! What are you doing with the tape? I'm gonna turn it off! ! Go on just turn it off ! No, she doesn't want it . She don't want it? No. Right I'll just . Oh my God ! I've got something Roy ! It must be something for her to change They like . Erm, it's just a ju general, you know, it's really funny! Hilarious! Listen to it. Is that all the jam left I've got for tea? Yes. No jam? You know th cos the lemon's No. nearly all gone. I'm draining the bottle. Eh? No more lemon out there in the stores. No orange. No orange! No! There hasn't been any orange since Monday! No marg Eh? No . Any ? Er, not much . Olive! Just thinking, what am I working here for ! ! Well even I have! then I'm off Wednesday, Thursday so I'm thinking of doing Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday no, Sunday, Monday, Tuesday Tuesday. then I'm off Wednesday Wednesday and Thursday, you should be on Friday but I'm gonna do instead. Right? That's alright innit? Yeah. Then I should be off, so it's working Thursday again. Yes! I should be off Tuesday, Wednesday That's right, yeah! I'm just off Wednesday and then I come in Thursday, then I'm off Yeah. Friday. Right! Yeah. I must remember. Enjoy your work then! Yes! Yes! As long as I don't turn up in my holiday as well! Course, you'll be here Friday morning. Yeah. For , yeah. For the innit? Then I'll be on my own in the afternoon there as well. That's right! I'm off Wednesday, then I have Thursday, work Thursday, then I'm off Friday. Right! ! Away for a dirty weekend! Ooh! She doesn't mean that! Yes she does! No she doesn't! Oh yes she does! I can't get Right my love, we'll start getting the dinner through don't you? Yeah. Can I borrow it a minute for You wanna borrow it do you? Just , can I get more in? Alright. Nearly dinner time! Mm mm. Nearly dinner time Connie! She'll be up in a minute. Going into dinner now? What dear? Going into dinner? I'm coming in, yes. Are you coming down Right. with your friend? Oh you did? Where's Connie's friend? Is it Connie's friend? Yeah I should think Yeah. so. Typical! Well she don't need that But, all of it? does she? No. You come with me then my darling I'll take you! And I'll wait for you come back. Up! No I'm alright. That's a girl! Ah! Alright? You hold my arm. That's it! Thank you! Alright Connie, I've got you! Oh! Sa that's it my love! You catch hold of his hand as well. Give me your hand. That's Alright lovely! Alright Connie? That's my darling! Mary do you want me to take that erm It's heavy! If you could get hold of it. Now look, you see there's there's two women sitting there swinging their feet, there could be an accident! That's why it's Who's that? Well the two that were sitting they've gone out now. Have they? But there could be an accident! Mm! I'm No , there could be couldn't there? not prepared to fi face it! No! Now, is there anybody in there? Yes there's somebody in there. Oh! Oh right! Well I'll take Mabel in as well. Well the other one's free innit? Yeah down by the bathroom. Oh yes, I'll go down there. Yeah, there's another one now if you're waiting Daphne. Okay then? Oh you're waiting for there are you? Come on Mary! Thank you kindly! I won't keep you waiting. Don't run! Thank you. I'm trotting, not running! You're trotting! Trotting. Oh! Ooh so Ooh! sorry dear! Sorry! Running into you now! Now you see those two women there, now watch them they swing their legs at times, there could be an accident there! Mm. It happens all the So you don't know what they're called? No. No. Erm There you are! Anyway, leave it there, we won't pack it away. No. We have it on again later. I hope so. Cos er Yeah. generally everybody likes it but you see you got Course they do! and their, their feet are going like this! Yeah. Okay then. Bernard's there. Bernard's gotta come out. Bernard, right. What are you doing your neck! Neck. Shall go and get Bernard then! Cherry wants Can you? I know. Hello Bernard! Hello ! Alright? Yes . Up to dinner now. Up to dinner. Up to dinner . Mhm. Alright? Ah! Okay? You feeling better? No . No? Up you go! That's it! Okay? Now don't you leave me ! I won't leave you don't worry! We'll go up in the lift, alright? Yes . There we are! Oh I feel bad ! You feel bad? What's the matter? Ah! I don't know ! You don't know? Right. Don't let go of me darling ! Pardon? Don't let go of me ! No, it's alright Bernard. I'll fall down . It's okay! Yo just hold onto your frame. Yep! Uh! Over the top. Okay? It's raining! Eh ? It's raining. Raining, mm . Mm. Never mind ! No. Right I'll open the door. Okay? That's it! Take it slowly! I'll go and do the lift for you alright? You've had a hair cut haven't you? Yes Yeah. Very nice! Good ! Yeah. That's it! Right turn it a little bit! Right! Oh I'll sit here a minute ! Mm! I must sit here a minute . You wanna sit there a minute. Alright Oh! and wait for the lift to come. Okay? What is this ? This? This is Cherry's. Eh ? I'm looking after it for Cherry. Oh! That's all. So it doesn't get damaged. What is it er for hearing? No, it's like a Walkman. You know, you can put tapes in it and listen to music and Oh yes! Oh, is it? and you can record things and mm Oh look, here's the lift! Yeah. Up you get! Yeah, they're quite good really. You've got him have you? Yep! Hello little sweetheart! Ooh! Good job I got hold of your trousers then Bernard! Yes. Something might have happened! It would have happened! It di di di di di di did! Oh yeah it did, didn't it? Mm! Still I got this little girl with me! Yeah. You got a nice little Eh? girl haven't you? What's her name? Lorraine. Lorraine. Mm. Yeah. Ooh I was waiting for ! Mm mm! Nobody up there yet! Ooh he he he came out of she's been running round behind me must of thought she was . Ooh er! I thought she must be coming down in a moment. I'll send it up. Ooh that's odd! Once I saw the I've lost my way! Oh sorry dear! Oh oh! Alright? Go and see the ladies now can't you? That's it! That's it. That's . Slowly Bern! Eh? Hello Bernard! Hello my ducks! Ah! Alright? Yes. You're a real roly-poly aren't you? A pardon? You're a real roly-poly! You're a fine one to talk! What did he say? He said, you're a real roly-poly did you hear him ? Is that an insult or a compliment? I thought it was a compliment. It is? Yeah. Well I wouldn't call me a roly That's Vera's new name now roly-poly ! Well! Well! Never mind Bernard No! eh? That's all in good fun! Yeah , I know. I know you didn't mean it in offensively. No. No, not offensively! You're not an offensive person are you? Your trousers are falling down though! Are they? That's alright. I'm going to the right place now. Hang on Trudy! Oh! I see! Look at his little fat ! Fat , yes! Right! That's it, yeah. Perhaps Lorraine will give you your . Okay, I'll just put Bernard in a minute. Hello Barbara! Hello! Oh are you bringing Bernard? I'm bringing Bernard. That's your privilege today then? Oh yep! Thank you my dear! Alright? There we are. Oh dear! What? Looks as if he might have Yep! them in. Oh he might. I doubt it though ! Oh there's no chair there is there? No chair there. Thank you my dear. Okay? No, there's no chair. That's it. Right! It's getting a bit late to clear up with the sun. Yeah. Alright. You're not strong enough to push him I am! Are you gonna fight with me? Do you want a fight ? If you like! Yeah ! What I want is something to eat, now! Do you? Mm. Oh off to the kitchen then? Go on then! We saw oh, we saw you playing in the pa in police precinct yesterday. In the police what ? Was it the police precinct? What with policemen? Yeah. No ! It was outside anyway in the car. I saw you didn't I? Yeah. Yeah, I waved at you all. Yeah. Yeah. Oh dear! No I wasn't playing with any policeman erm going to see where you go have you? Oh where did you see that young lady? Yes, when we were in, in the car with Mm. That's the thing isn't it? Playing were you playing there or were you yo yo yo , or you Well the policeman just erm at er, in the poli I was wal er police precinct, you know near those the Court. Now the , now th , you know where that is? Austins? No. Oh yes, I know Austins! Back of Austins. Oh yes, I Yes. know it. The back of Austins. Oh yeah! Near Woolworths do you mean? No I was walking down Charles Street Sorry Mary? Never,ne never used to call it that? You were in the police car? She'd have been a lovely ! No I was I was walking down town. Mhm. And you met her? And they were in the car going up. Tha that's what it was. Were they going Sorry? Were they going in the car? They were! Yeah! I don't know! Too many women in here aren't there? Look at them all! But I got my change back this Yes. morning. Yes, Moira Yeah. said. It is le left on the shelf evidently there's only one single man! Yeah, that's or something. right! Yes. So it's alright now thank you. Good! Only I was trying to get the right money today, see so to Yeah. er, I will try and push you to see if I've got the right money, you know. Mhm. Get That's right. getting the cook , cookery stuff Yeah. Okay then. Sorry? I'm gonna tuck those in. Tuck it in. Is that better? Yeah. Oh yeah, yeah! I wore right down the front just Oh did you? Yeah! Oh Violet! I can't help it! No I know you can't. If you tuck that in there. Okay? Thank you. You alright then Mabel? Right! Get some dinner then! I knew she'd leave the wrapping on! Right! Are you ready then girls? She still got that thing all over her? Connie's a bit daft in't she sometimes! She's stuck. Erm Who did Mabel? and erm young Oh! and Cathy. And Wi , er Winnie 's gotta have her dinner up there today. Five. Four! Four. Four. Edie don't want her dinner. Right. So I'll do Tom and Renee Oh good! That's good! shall I? Er Thomas is just going. well you can do Oh is he gone? Yeah Yeah. I've got it here. If you do Winnie for me along here. Right. Yeah, that's natural, yeah. Have you got a dry one for er Mary? Ooh yes! Give that one to Mary. Give that one to Mary. Yeah, okay love. Yeah. So that's Mary and Lilian. Mary's done. I think this one of the last of them now. Shall I Move down to Okay, I'll just take Winnie's down. I'll come back up. all that. sort it out again. Right. Are you taking er Mrs Winnie. now? Oh! Yeah. Shall I take it for her. . She won't be long. Thank you. About these last night though don't you? Here we are! There you are. Thank you love. Okay. Looks nice don't it? Very nice! Does don't it? Mm! I'll bring your pudding in later on. Yeah ,. Okay? Thank you. better not eat all of that . Yeah, there's quite a lot there isn't there? Yeah there is. Just see how you get on. Will you bring me a spoon when you bring my pudding Sorry? A spoon? Right, okay. I'll eat I'll eat this with a spoon thank you. Right okay then. You can cut Mabel's up if you like my love? Alright. I can't ! I'll cut it up for you shall I Mabel? Please? going to bed now. One without the carrot there. Yes! One We haven't got one without the carrots. We haven't got the . Well alright. Alright? Thank you. What shall we do then cut them up for you? Erm You hair looks very nice doesn't it, now! What dear? Your hair looks very nice! Does it feel better? A lot, yes. Yeah. There we are. She'll be getting into bed alright.. Bit better isn't it? That will do thank you. Alright. There you are. Who was it . Yeah I know, you see it's the wrong kind of tree innit, in a shop like that? Should thank be leaving Friday. Yeah. I think we're all having a shock with those extra You what? It's the whole bread you see innit? Yeah. Yeah. Oh that looks nice! Yeah that's nice! Mm! Oh yeah! Chinese have this! Chi the Chinese ! What you? It's good for them! They don't realize that, the vitamins. Yeah. Makes all those starving countries that's all they get is rice! Finished! Nothing else! Mm. Handful of rice! Dreadful in't it? Yeah I know. But they don't help theirself these third countries! I mean they have children like rabbits don't they? That's right Roy! You know! They don't help theirself! That's what they wanna be educating isn't it? Educating them , aye. What do you tell them! Winnie goes in there they said Yeah, she's gone. Oh! Well they've taken it down. That's it. Right we'll stop this now. Yeah. Can we use that now? Yes yo er no you can't cos it's for Not again! Now just just relax Moira! You're getting too uptight about it ! I'm not ! I shall play it back to Brian! He'll say dunno who that is ! You can tell Brian that yo I won't be speaking Go on, say! if you tell Brian! Well that's alright. I won't be speaking! What you can tell Brian She's being rude to you Brian! No I'm not being rude to Brian ! I feel sorry for Brian ! What ! I'm really hurt by that! Well that's the last bloody time I go out with you anywhere! What a miserable old thing! I don't mean it Cherry! Yes you do! You've just said it, bloody ! No I don't! Edie, Vi, Lilian Salt and vinegar! ! It was so funny Fiona was saying that Brian was out there the other night and he said that, she said where's Kathleen? Like this, you see looking for and I said she's gone on a bike ride! I That was me! I knew she'd gone on ! Did he laugh? He laughed, he did ! She went out with me. Sorry! Oh! Oh Christ now! Gladys! Edith! Shh! Eddy, Edith, Muriel Vi Richard, Kathleen Winnie and Tom. Two mugs for Winnie and Tom. No mugs for Winnie and Tom? Right! One, two, I'm not that bad am I? You're very Course not! good Cherry! Am I? You're very good! You don't need that! I do! You wouldn't miss me if I wasn't here! I'd find out! Course we won't ! we would ! If I wasn't here you'd be all, it would be horrible! ! Wee ! It's a shame innit? I'll take that job then if I was offered it. I'll blooming well take it! Who did that? I don't know. It's the . I'd laugh if it was! No! I wouldn't ! got a face like a brick in this picture ! She'll wanna go up in a minute I know that! Isn't she a waitress then? Yes! You didn't know! Turning taps on. Pardon? how much do you want? Yeah, that's lovely Roy! And there's your Yeah that's lovely Roy! Erm It is though, heating the What ? Is it heating the buns? Have you noticed Roy? ! What's up with this Have you noticed? salad? He doesn't mind! No staff room or loo or anything I think we're at least entitled to the odd bun! Hey! This one's got no no erm icing on it? No, they're plain ones. Oh! Do you want cream ones? or afternoon? Connie's quiet isn't she? Who? Connie. She's probably found out the erm what room they're in. We've got erm plates out. I'll put that in a soup bowl. Shall I do anything ? What's in here? It's er two bottles of beer. Oh look your dog is here! Cup of tea Brian? Oh what can I do? Right ! Oh I know what I haven't done, I think I've forgotten to the lock the . a bit bigger er Moira. Pardon? Lot bigger than this one. Yes! Do you wanna Do you wanna big'un? a big one? Yeah, I agree Roy. you do not mind my taking this method of answering your letter and I hope that you, I did not put you to too much trouble to locate a recorder to listen to the tape, I am just too lazy to write it all down and think that what I have to say I can put it better in words than what I can on paper, I'll let you do that part. The first questions that you brought up was, if possible I would be very grateful to you for a brief description of the two raids to Gdynia Pole ninth of October in Colesfield tenth of October nineteen forty three. To go back to the Gdynia one on the ninth of October nineteen forty three, I have to state that when our crew arrived in England we went to er through school at Bovingdon for a couple of weeks then we were assigned to the Ninety Second Bomb Group and they wanna be sure we fit in. At that time the navigator and bombardier starting going on missions because evidently they were short so by the time the Gdynia mission came around the bombardier and the, and the er navigator had missions under their belt so this was to be my first mission. I flew as co-pilot, we had a veteran pilot who would be Aeroplane Commander, the rest of the crew was green or also on their first mission. So that on er if you look at the crew picture this is the crew that flew the first mission to Gdynia, Poland except kneeling the second man from the left is , he did not go, I flew the co-pilot position. The trip to Gdynia, Poland to me was a remarkable one by the Eighth Airforce because of the distance involved and the location of the target that was hit in the daytime. I feel sure that the German Luftwaffe must have looked at it especially the leaders, and saw where the Eighth Airforce hit and seeing what we did and gave them some thought and consideration, actually with our Bomb Group going in we had no fighter attacks on the way in over the target, we had flack but we did not have air opposition, then on the way back we crossed the Danish peninsula and I think of course by this time the Luftwaffe knew we were coming back that way, and they had the fighters up there and this was our first time being on this mission that we saw air to air combat with the fighters against the flying fortress and in our ammunition, in our guns there, every fifth bullet was a tracer and it was amazing to me that as the German fighters came in it looked like just a hail of tracers going out but they were able to get in there knock down a B Seventeen and leave, it seemed, unscathed untouched it almost seemed impossible to me that a fighter could go through that many bullets and escape unharmed. Evidently I did not see fighters go down that day but I know they did but this was a first realization as if there was somebody up there to kill me and I guess this is the point at which you realize that you are going to kill them before they kill you and all of a sudden we are in combat all our lives and we take a complete change in outlook from everything because up to now everything had been practise and training just for this except we did not have that realization that they are there to kill us, who's gonna be killed first? I sent you the articles that I had in my scrapbook from Colesfield on October tenth, I am looking now at the ones from Gdynia, Poland, on October ninth and its headlines Port Libs hit Poland and Prussia with vast damage caused by wrecker raid on four targets deep in the East, Gdynia, Danzig, German plane plants are blasting great weekend blitz, Bremen and Hanover get it again . Underneath that I have another article to which was kicked out sometime later but I have it in here, it says, raid on Gdynia would surprise to Nazis to say refugees in Sweden tell how the non Germans cheered in the streets but the two refugees eye witnesses to the American Bombing Attack on Gdynia, October ninth, reported here that the raid caught the Germans by surprise and that non German workers stood in the streets and cheered amid terrific destruction. The refugees provided this picture of the attack which occurred with deepest thrust yet made into Europe by Britain based American bombers. The Germans thought Danzig might be bombed but not Gdynia, since the latter is a Polish City. Germans were confidently walking in the streets when the alarm sounded but they didn't take it seriously and failed to go to air raid shelters. They came as a lightning surprise to them when two hundred American planes came over the city clearly visible in the cloudless sky, the Italians kept separating in two camps because of fascist and non- fascist fleet ran around frantically trying to get fog machines working, trying to obscure the target but the fog prevented warships in the harbour for putting up an effective anti-aircraft barrage. The bombers came in from two different sides of the harbour and from the direction and . Five small war warships and one larger vessels were wrecked by the bomb hits on a dry dock. Three coal boats and three tugboats were sunk. The biggest coal crane and unloading machinery as well as six were damaged. The terrific bomb blast shattered every window in Gdynia. Headquarters for the Gestapo and police were wrecked. The Germans announced only one hundred and eighty casualties but there were at least twelve hundred German military personnel and six hundred civilians including one hundred and twenty Poles. So this was quite a mission which I believe has not been adequately covered in the history and was a forerunner of things to come and like I say we got through that mission without any damage, our gunners got to shoot at the first German fighters and we were an experienced crew with one mission under our belt. The next day we went to Colesfield. Now the mission to Colesfield was with the crew that you have pictures, have the picture of, as you look at the picture from left to right standing in the back is or I should say ,,, and his home town was Louisiana, he was a waste gunner. The second man from the left to the right is his home was , the third man was a gunner and his name is his home town was Stirling Nebraska and he was the oldest man on the crew. The fourth man in is from New York City, he was the gunner and engineer of the crew, he is now deceased. The fifth man is , he was a gunner and armourer and flew in the and the man furthest on the right standing is from Chualar C H U A L A R California, he was a waste gunner for two waste gunners on the each end of the standing group. Kneeling, left to right, of course there's myself and I was from New Orleans, Louisiana at that time. Second man in is and he was from Sanco Texas er he only flew a few missions with me, in training I'd had another co-pilot and er I had checked the co-pilot I had when the crew was organized out, so he could go back through and come as er as a Plane Commander with a crew. joined us just as we were ready to go overseas, he had just come out of er Flight School and of course his heart was set on being a fighter pilot and here he became a co-pilot so he was a very disappointed man and he did not stand up well in combat so there weren't too many missions, about five and I bounced him off the crew and wouldn't fly with him any more and got then other co-pilots to fly with me from our Squadron. And the third man kneeling , the navigator who was from Milford M I L F O R D , Utah, and the last man is and he was from Dekalb,D E K A L B , Illinois. Now the thing about this crew and the crews that you were talking about from the Hundredth Bomb Group, the, I guess the most famous crew from the Hundred Bomb Group is with the Roses Rivetus Now our crews were at the same time. and myself or as he was better known, came through B Seventeen Transition School at in Florida together and where the crews were formed so that the names in the Army of course are worked alphabetically, so everybody on my crew is trained with everybody on crew and their last name is just ahead erm in the alphabetic in the class that they were in, so that my navigator came from the same school, the same navigation class as . The same way with the bombardier waste gunner, radio operators, engineers and all the gunners, so that our crews were all buddy-buddy. crew and my crew were buddy-buddy from the minute we were formed, right on through, I guess you might say the rest of our lives here, even though we have not gotten together since the war but I have talked to on the phone one time when I was in New York City. The er other thing about our crew was that er one time there, I guess after was the only one that got back and they, they had to get him back on flying service. He flew to our base, the reason there all of his crew members to visit with all of my crew members. Then one time after we've had a rough mission and trying to get back on flying status an'all, we flew over to your Hundredth Bomb Group field and this did the there with crew. Once again each man visited with his own buddies that they'd gone through training with here in the States, so we feel very much attached to the Hundredth Bomb Group and . Of course this picture was taken at Tennessee, right before we went overseas to start our bombing missions so that the aeroplane behind us course doesn't have a name,was one that was used for training. So when we got overseas course we flew with the Ninety Second Bomb Group the Three Two Six Squadron and er all we were pretty well into our missions, I would say about six, seven, eight. When a new plane came in and they assigned it to our crew, it being the principle crew and we got to name it and we named our plane Skyscraper, I do have some later pictures but er it taken in front of the plane of the crew that I was flying with at that time and the ground crew in front of Skyscraper. But this is the crew and the picture that flew to Colesfield on the tenth of October of forty three and we had nothing out of the ordinary to report about that mission and that was the Gdynia Mission the day before, it certainly stands out on our minds because of the length of it and then of course the next one on the fourteenth of October to Schweinfurt which changed our lives. I don't know if you have the book by is the history of the Ninety Second Group and in case you don't have it I would just bring in about these two missions. On October ninth, the Ninety Second Group participated in the Eighth Airforce's longest mission to assault the harbour area at Gdynia, Poland on the western side of the Danzig, twenty one aircraft led by took off at eight hundred hours and twenty returned ten and a half hours later. The aircraft by Second Lieutenant failed to return, victim of savage enemy fighter attacks. The following mission to Colesfield on October tenth but Ninety Two Ninety Second planes leading the Division. excuse me failure to combat when Commanding Officer directed the attack flying . Twenty aircraft was despatched and sixteen attacked. covered the town in returning crews claimed it wiped out. Photographs made after the attack on the German Naval Base at Gdynia showed the five hundred and fifty foot liner Stuttgart burning fiercely, three other ships in the harbour were left burning and dock railway yards and workshops hit. That was directly . I was just checking here in from the book by and I was looking at the chapter here on Roses Rivetus and er and it was on the mission to Munster here that er Third Combat Mission once a day for three days' running was to Munster it was this ill-fated mission that made the reputation as the bloody Hundredth and of course this is the one that he only came back from. They also see that on page hundred and ninety nine, they have a picture here of crew of Rivetus and I was just getting about these names to mind, his radio operator's name was , mine was . Nobody must have been his bombardier, mine was and my navigator was and I see his would have been . His flight engineer must have been mine was . That was very interesting and I thought a good write up of and the things that he did, there to survive the World War Two and of course I go back to when the crews were formed and we flew together training at Pyo Texas and at er Dallasburgh, Tennessee and then from there went overseas, we went to er Scotville, Illinois and picked up new planes in Petermover and it was, we went to Stagen area. Now it was there that we became separated, I developed a very bad throat and could not fly, just before we were ready to leave for overseas as in his crew and the other crews that were there went on whereas I got held back and of course the way I feel about it is that that week that I got held back, saved my life. I hope this little titbit of news about the crews that were formed and especially the ones of Rivetus because that is what you're writing about, since he was the only one back from the Hundredth Bomb Group but how well we knew him in training since the two crews trained together and of course the flying part of it and myself have coordinated our flying with our co-pilots, we used to, just the two of us go up, and we would actually fly a circle around one plane over another, so one plane was and the other plane would fly circles around it and keeping up with it and this calls for close teamwork between the pilot and the co-pilot because as you're keen and went into view and and then of course we switched roles and I would become the leader and he'd fly circles around me, training with his co-pilot. Then of course the there were area combat missions, area missions but these had nothing to do er with the work training I think that and I did and in developing of our crews so that we were able to survive and of course er our mission that we thought that would probably be the same as was on the fourteenth when we went to Schweinfurt and we made it back and not only that but we got back to England, we'd manage on about the third pass to get in to this one field and there was another plane trying to get in and they went up and bailed out and after we were eating our supper here they brought the men in the fields er where they, on the bombers' field where they had landed the never got in so they went up and set the plane on automatic pilot and bailed out because they couldn't land the plane but we managed to take them out and I think there was the extra good flying training and I did together that made us able to survive the savage attacks that we had, he had it on the Munster mission, I had it on the Schweinfurt mission. So now that's about all I have on these two missions for you and I hope this will be of some help and er be only too glad to hear from you. You can continue on with this tape. Go on I tell you what why don't you flip it over and start on the other side, even though it says this side done, this is an old tape from a seismograph and er we were afraid to use it in our work but I think the sound's alright on it, you flip it over and where it says this side down, put that side up and use the other half of the tape and let me hear your comments back. Because if you will have a had to get a recorder to listen to this side so you might as well put something on the other side and send it to me but of course there is no rush and in return you'd be showing you take off anything or any part that you care to use. Hello,we welcome to the five o'clock news. And today we'll be starting with erm Dannii Minogue, Belinda Carlisle. The news I said. Erm bye bye. Moni Moni. Moni Moni. Right well welcome to Atlantic two five two. Today we'll be meeting Dannii Minogue. Dannii Minogue. And Dannii's not in at the moment so we'll just have some music now. . hear it though. They can if . What? What do you mean, what? What about Colin? I haven't got him singing it. But they're good! Some of them are good. Some of them are crap. Most of them I'm going shut up in! When are you playing at the Grove? Be two of you shouldn't it? Dunno if we are. No? Did Debby go and watch you, like in the end? I haven't asked her since the first time. Well then Fred said she is after but you got another girl. Aye. I phoned Debby to get Steven 's phone number to get him to leave out the microphone and the amplifier and then he brought up the microphone and didn't bring up the amplifier. Cos he didn't think we wanted one. So, like we couldn't Do you Steven,? No, he's a total wanker! But I Aye. Steven he's a bit thick! Steven who? Who? The big one or blonde haired Steven Steven. one. Steven . Big one, yeah. Big one. Didn't tell you Fat wee face for the geezer He reminds me of , no it's not him, he reminds me of Brian. Bu aye, he remind me of Brian actually. Michael reminds me of Brian. Michael ? Maybe he's . Try and get somebody . Total dick, like! He breaks up with Michael and I go round cu , I I'll give them the car and get the amplifier, and he goes what amplifier? And I went fuck you, wanker ! Right. And they're keep us waiting for an hour. He's even, but I told him but I'm glad . Well it wasn't very funny, you know ! I'm sure Rick had to run into the car cos they were gonna beat his fuck in! Yes! He told me ! Who was shitting it? But like And you know, I would have come over here and come and play at giving you a beating or something like that. At least he was gonna get out of the car jump ! Do you re remember when I into your house and you told my dad? Did he? Er, someone up and asked Aye. you? Why all the At least you find somebody, somebody shitting themselves ! It was funny though! They took the the, his petrol cap off and everything! Just gonna chuck a match down it. Fucking amusing ! Fuck! That would have been amusing! Stephen Yeah ! would have been dead! Yo oh oh ! I mean it was really, I watched it! Oh! That prick he's good at making us laugh. He reminds me of gay Peter . Yeah. I thought he was ? No, that's Stephen . I'm sorry! No it's not, it's That guy's a right tit! A total You know pillock! and he all he took was, like it was funny he got accepted into Oxford decided he was gonna buy him a bottle of champagne. Great! Brilliant! And when he leaves ! That'll make you die going to Oxford then. I know. Stephen 's got a date. Yeah. Worse things could happen. Not even ? Yeah! An and that ! Fucking went and arrested him! He was pretty shitting himself! He wasn't gonna go so he wasn't! school. Well it's good! He kept going round the corner. Going down to see her. Fucking hell! I swear you have a screw loose cos he was playing oh well,. I don't know where he was. Aye, he was lost on it. You opened up there. Och! I wo never , the people just walked in the door like. I didn't know who. The best was when the both men . Thanks a Jud! The way I the, the girl with the short hair. And then I went upstairs and she followed me. The one with the vertical eyebrows? Hey you! No, not him. Erm,. Oh! Which one, in security? And What? Security? Security. Security officer. Which one? You probably didn't see him actually, he was hanging around upstairs. Aye, perhaps I saw him like, cos I was upstairs like. I dunno. Oh! And see, she was in a bolshie mood . He said, I if I were you! No ! He wanted her to follow upstairs for you. Go out with me? Good though innit! then he let her go ! Oh right! Had a li , definitely didn't leave the door open. Hello. Hello there! Hello. I'm okay. How you feeling? Hello. Okay. How are you? Alright? How are you? Okay. You started early? Oh? Mm. Did you have a nice time? Yeah, it was fair enough. Was there many people there? Well, there was a good crowd. Pretty good crowd, yeah. Right. Mm pretty good! Morning! Morning. Doo doo doo . band see? Aye. Was it better value? I dunno er It's on. What's this? It's a ta Would anyone like a wine gum? No thanks love. Stephen? I was . Want one? Stephen, are you working in the morning? No, not tonight. Doo da da da da da da . So you'll getting up in the morning ? Yep. Oh dear me ! So if you've to be half past nine there, what time do you need up at? Right! Bye! Bye! See you! Are you giving me a lift or will I arrange to come over in the office? Aye. Sure is that. Well I'll go over to , okay? Well , we didn't know what you'd planned for tomorrow! And I might be going . Well, you're not having any choice! Oh, am I not? Avenue now. I'll be running you to work petal. What time did we say? Is your coffee alright? Dad, do you want your other Yes. Are you sure? Quite surely. Wine gum. Stephen's . Well I was just co I want the head and er sticking a bolt in it! That thing left off, you know,! Dee dee dee, dee dee . What did you have to eat? Er bake or something like that it's called. And salad. And then stuffed carrot. It was quite nice! And er then there was cheesecake and or chocolate meringue. What's chocolate meringue like? Er, it wasn't nothing, I tell you! Didn't think so. And raspberry or a raspberry mousse, that was quite nice! Stephen, you'll have to have words with Graham this morning. And it's . Right. Anyway, I'll give you a lift in. Erm well what time you leaving? Can I have a lift? Leaving at quarter to nine. What's the latest you can wake me up like. Mm? What's the la , latest you can wake me up? Er, about quarter to ten then I'm away then. Aye. Wake me up about half eight. Right. Alright? Wake you up at half eight? Aye. Make sure you're up at Aye. What's the joke? Did Colin come? Yeah. There. Alright. In the bath. wine gum. Bloody hell! Unless he's improved, normally out like . Stephen, you don't want to leave all over the kitchen like that, it's really . Linda knows what it is, but I'm just not saying anything about it. What? Linda was here like when mum told me. Oh yeah! Your so right ! What do you think Brian'll say? He was pretty hurt Chris. Honest? The only way I see how do you Oh yeah! admit it? Yeah. Oh definitely! Th , not ? Aye, I'm glad you're thinking along the lines cos I think Chris and Dave they did, but erm had to be persuading. I think Paul could to sing better. toilet on the right too. You better let me in or I'll . This one? I have heard of it er even went to the concert like. I can't remember what it sounds like. I was sitting, I dunno just mucking about yesterday and I just and really dead boring I don't wanna hear this Stephen! Pardon? Dirty bastard! and like, just started to feel sick and then er Ah that's gross! Did it break? It hits Go on. And er,jus playing so that I was trying to like erm or P A B, or P A E B as th ,. Erm and I just suddenly flipped and I can't But not the remember the very song. At the very start of the song. Couldn't remember the start. Second song, first first or the second side. Well that's what it could be. It is. First song of the side. Oh, the first song of the second side, but how did you know? Cos I say what songs we're singing. No it's erm it jus , just the last bit, but like Oh fuck! a few bars on the end. , I do I don't listen to that. Well I, I listened to it and it's so gonna be fucking Yeah, I know that. And like Yeah. It's always a that never moves. Like miles better and like Don't suppose you can pick that up? You ever heard Godfrey? Heard of him. Haven't heard him. What? Erm I gathered he was fucking tonight? What? Your God blessed. Yeah! Yeah , every time he goes, he says God bless you!fuck! And is he? Definitely heavier than fuck! I dunno, you know. Well there's a quite a lot of soul . just the heavy stuff. It's this great record! Got a job on Wednesday Tuesday. .drum machine. Bit like . And Derek's been replaced by a machine ! No it's not . No it's not that I was just getting together to play a bit of recording stuff. You know the kind of stuff, I think you can do it . Oh! Do you know your man er the guy that comes in here with the ginger hair. Mark! Mark. Mark. Know him, yeah? Well him and his mates are getting together and I think Aha ha! Are they? Yeah, with there. talk about yesterday, he was talking about giving up. What's he doing? No, it was true yesterday. Aha. his mate says it's his birthday and his dad paid for a recording session somewhere. Eh? For a hired a studio for three hours. Och! Sod off! Yeah? And he said they've made Having a laugh! as much stuff as possible, all these guitars! Well your man, your man, the guitars . Ah! Fuck! Er er Where did he get them from? Ah, he just scrounged them off of me. Just and all these and a couple of a key sixes their playing. Have they got any songs organised or anything? No, no. That's normal. just all er Madness. Just old stuff er We should have kept it on hold. He should have kept the studio in time for some And have a practice of some sort. Yeah. Like when they're having Not, not , no not their own stuff. I mean, stuff that they your cover versions and stuff, you know, and all that. Oh I know but, if I was getting studio time there's no way I'd be going through the You wanna do your own stuff. fucking covers! That's stupid! It really is! I think we'd be better ourselves, like! Never heard this. Yeah I I dunno. Ah! Wouldn't you know like! Ah! Fuck you would! I fucking would now! You wouldn't like, cos you know and saying, saying there if you would like. But I wouldn't! Then you know what, ah seriously I couldn't Cos everybody else did. I wanted to. You would have I say been the only one who wouldn't go. I'd say yeah I would. I would and all, you know. Ha! No one else. Like, don't tell me that I tried to get a . I didn't think you'd gone out . They got a small, really small casing. You should have I'm gonna have to go in and get me a a double bass like. It's . Got this double bass and he's talking about like . He didn't push,your weight on it. They reckon they've got about four songs down recorded and mixed in four hours! No way! they'll be lucky to get one done. And they'll be something like a hundred quid for a single. Well Mark says they've got twenty songs prepared like. Twenty? Yeah. Twenty? In four hours? No way! No , three. Three hours? Fuck that! We got what? One. You know why? When I told them that you's got about three and mixed up We did three in six hours, and we were alright at the time. Cos we all knew what we were doing. Well! Three in six hours? Mm. Wow! It's a lot, lot longer than you think Steve. I mean I I knew it'd be longer, but it doesn't take fucking, takes three hours to do one song! Well it didn't. I mean I I had the guitar stuff done within an hour but it getting all vocals over-dubbed and doubling everything up and then, it took forever to mix it together. But we did it really good! You had to it all yourself or Alright, we're in a forty odd track studio ! Wah! I didn't wanna to do anything, you know. No! The guy did it know what I mean, but just takes a hell of a lot longer to mix like. He ended up costing me something good more like! It was twenty five to ten or something. But we wouldn't have done it unless we needed it copied down. Couldn't get it . That's the only reason why we did it. Mm. See you heard Ghost Devils? Feargal . no time, he records in his bedroom, I swear to God, it sounds best blooming recording! I swear to God! They were playing hymns. I come round one time. Yeah! Oh yeah, I heard that. Sisters of Mercy, come in and fucking helpless! Better than I heard the quality in . I swear to God! Ah! But you got black playing for their G C S E pa er, practical. No? Ah! But I kno It's great! you know what I did yesterday? Shit ! He's sat in there and we all listened to them and insulted them basically! We should sa , say, someone should sit them down and poin , point out the facts to you, like fucking wise up! Sell your instruments and get a job or something! Fuck! You think they'd be a bit better than they are. Mm. Did they take passports up to, up to Oh God! That's the most horrible thing Steve that thing! What,or something? He had a crappy Hemworth guitar and stuck white sticky paper all over it so it would look like Eddie Van Halen! He came down on his knees to do a solo really because he can't actually play to back me up! Fucking joke ! And everyone thought he was posing but it was actually who did it. He's a fucking sad bastard! Sweets. Bastard! You let . And I said really. What ? You read my fan letter again? Yeah he is, he's falling to bits! I always did. That noi , that Neil just annoys so Yeah. what's, do you want to come Ya. to bed like?and he goes ner! And he goes who's flying ! Right, and then holding me up and put a jab then in then go ner er er er! Dicky was all part of this was he? Whose are these? Okay. Oh thanks ! We've got three hundred watt amps rustled up to the Who does? Us. Where the fuck did you get those from? Well, gonna use 's, and then er Oh! Three hundred You. That's right. I thought you meant, ah, three hundred! Oh no. Er mm mm. You should see this fucking drum machine! You should see the size! You put a wee on the drums and practically e eighteen on the bass drums and the snares, so you just go woo! And the three amp will do what like? With the reverb on the amp as well as the one on the drum machines I'll say God damn heavy! Seriously! And the sound, you know you can get them to programme all every conceivable drum para, you know, every . Stuff you couldn't do as a drummer because you would have to follow the snare drum at the same time Yeah. as well as the cymbals and shit. I haven't heard go good drummers tonight. Well that's a fucking good drum I should think! The double bass'll be going like a, seriously like a machine gun. Heavier than a machine gun! Jesus! Chris, Chris , you know my friend, and Chris must have been quite new at this, you know that song that like when the double bass and then Yes. just that for the one part of the riff right? And he was going at double the speed, I'm not joking! It wa , it was going Brilliant! We got there and there was a, you know, the two like this are going, I was going Fine! Has he got a double bass like?drums like? No, no, just a pedal. Just a pedal. Ah fuck! I swear to God it was unbelievable! Peter was going mm mm mm mm ah! God! I hate that fucking record! It's sick! What's wrong with that? It goes on and on and on! ! Bitch! The last dog in ! She looks like a stupid bitch too! She is! Stupid bitch! Did you go out last night? No, Thursday night. Oh! I went up the barns last night. Who with, Michael? Says you that's been ! No, I'm quite serious here. And what did he do? Go and jumps someone. Lose himself or something. Oh Christ! Lose himself! Yo , ah well, you know. You know how it is with the two er two parts of the Her as well? It's not . No sorry! Two riffs, two parts of the song. I didn't wanna do the song ! I also tried the jump shot which was hilarious and ! Jump in the air and basically when I tried what he was doing, I mean, it turned out he'll tell me what it was. She was leaning over talking to him and saying something sort of like I've never been so embarrassed in my life ! I thought, oh ! My life, I'm going oh well that didn't work! Why what did you do? I said that I'm he says er I said to her Dave here told me I should jump you! , was he driving as well? He was unconscious, that's why ! Yeah, I was talking to Stuart Oh! and him and Mickey were having sort of bird jumping competition, right? So Stuart was going first, and er he would pick on this, you know, supposedly he talking to this girl sprawled out and she was pissed out of her mind! You know, semi-conscious! Er he works up to this ! Would you like me to help you outside? She immediately sobered up a lot! She's given him on right between the legs! And then only, gently rolled off the seat that she was sitting on and tried to crawl the way back ! That's what I was doing, cos right 's the only one that deserves it! Yeah. Seriously! That's his line like, he walks up to you, would you like me to help you outside ? Oh! So she just like kick him one. Kelly. Yeah. Her. Fuck sake! I thought that would help. Yeah. Ah no, he asked tha , we're all just pissed as farts basically ! And was Paddy . You know ? I almost put his eye down, had his eye bro down the last time I was out with my dog. Seriously, I was . What we doing? someone's eye out ! He's coming up to, and 's is sitting on the stairs looking, and he was going like this and er, oh fucking hell cos she ! Did you look to see anything? Fucking white sitting across his eyelid ! Oh shit! Sorry! If he hadn't had his eye closed, seriously, you know where your eyes bu sort of Yeah. Yeah. it's a big today. Yeah. It's great! Well, what about Michael went on his arms during and absolutely wrecked his arm! What were these? Coach? Coach. I thought he'd never get the band off the road. This is shit! That is only one word! They all went down to the park before hand cos nobody finished the . And lay in the bus and went down to the park . heard his that er bottle came A bottle? a bottle. Oh aye. Why? And he went fucking drank it! He always He al like drinking methylated spirits! Oh I swear to God! It hit Feargal . Yes! He hit him? Oh! He did, yeah. It really is I thought it wa he'll tell me if it's nothing like the taste of and er alcohol. no wonder It tastes fuel. You ask him. he wants to get into a fight with er he said he's gonna hit, hit Feargal It tastes like drinking petrol now! Cos it's almost like petrol. onto the bus. Feargal just turns round and Ah well I got there first! Yeah ! That dodgy, he didn't have to say that! After th ,a , remember he was out having his twenty first birthday party? I think it was either that and there was at least twelve He didn't invite . Are you listening there? No! He hadn't been drinking regularly and it's probably . He couldn't remember a single ! That's it. Then thought I was trying to . You know, like you get the, you get the always one don't you? Ah you da la, la la la da lee . You know, I mean just oh Just awful! kicking and then they go,oi! Oi! Oi! Ah fuck! Oh God dynamite ! I'm sure it's fucking his! Ah! No, they like to split this bottle of tequila between them and they're both fucking wrecked! And we've noticed a bit unconscious. Unfortunately Kelly . Then Michael and me did a lot of singing. Ha! It is fucking easy like if he had . Bing! Bastard ! Hey! You'll soon change Oh quelle bastardo! Aye. Just pull that . Maybe we should change that shop to Bastardo Comics! Yeah. Why? Why not ? For that Well I reason. well I went down to the park had to a act,went on again ! Okay, start again we'd hate to waste it! collapses. with an adventure playground sort of thing. Drunk I think. Well, well actually screws up that's what happens! Ah ah ah ah ah! Yes! Think about it ! No, there was this thing, you know with tyres? Yeah. Mo gets up on the top of them stands right up the top, spreads around there's ! I want to ! Jesus Christ ! All the way to the top! No fucking Yeah. that's the . Yeah. They're only from walking across the wee bridge going, the boat going Oh! Oh God! Have you ever used one of those grip master things? No. No. Some wanker in our school paid ten quid for one of those. I heard about some guy came up What is it? after being down there and he had one and he was talking to his mates when and he was going do think this'll do me any good? No you fucking waz! I said it'll help his Definitely , why don't you get better at playing guitar, like fucking ! Oh! One of those exercise things. for er they are It has, it's like, it's like It's got stupid it's got it's got a bar in the middle right All you do , you don't actually Right. spri spring, er two springs at the bottom and just a flat bar and it has four keys with springs on the top and like, you just go Just do this . Right, one of those. They're definitely supposed to help your guitar playing. Helps you Like I can't squeeze round Just with your fingers I can't squeeze just on the individual rhythm got I got Yeah, what? I can't squeeze there . For the extra rhythm! When you're and like having a toss. Mm. It'll be fucking ! ! Stupid shit! Oh God! Advice from the master you're fucking useless! It's true! I mean, like it's so ! Or things Squeeze! it's like, half a er it's only about that much of a, a guitar neck. Yes, that's . And sort of like,th the handle going like this here. I swear to God the strings ! Ah! Jesus! No way! You could buy a packet of strings, right? Cut them up the, and then Well how many, how many frets are there? Just use ! It said it one of the guitar magazines I use my all the time before,before winding up for a gig , and all this sees for wrecking one of the guitars! Well why not? It's not just . All, all of these companies to them and said if you endorse this we'll give you . Yeah alright. Probably uses it to light the fire with! They send him a free one every six months! I need to scrape the scale off my . Oh yeah! Oh! It's not one of those It's only got , I mean, it's only got about five frets on it, so you . Diddle it! Diddle it! He's so stupid! I seriously can't wait for Tuesday. To have this blast like! I haven't played with anyone for like since months ago! It's over six months! You should have the . Pardon! Well I've not forgotten all about it. You got a playing. Out of sight, you know, what I mean,anyway. Are you gonna try and get it do down the ? No I'll wait here today. You fucking out here!. Well, anything else? Well surely not. You know that . Yeah. It's like in first like. Oh God! Oh this place that you where you wouldn't get a handbag stolen and all that. Oh yeah. Yeah. This fucking er. Alright. . . No, but the sister split up with her. I bet you shit yourself when your mum and dad weren't there! Yeah! Hey? Cunt! You just suit yourself! Oh, he was telling me, he said hey!? Start. He's still in the door. Looks pretty sore like. Big lot of nice stitches. What? Big lot nice of stitches. Mm. Don't get upset. Do you know what you look like? What? Sometimes ! For your . Do I? I hate them . I bet they went, ooh! Ooh! It's another one. It's another one. They weren't getting any business. People stopped giving it to them. Are you sure? I didn't even know that. Is it closed? Oh aye. It's pa It is open. I'd I knew it was open, I've never been in it. There was one of the fellers that we were in town and . In Belfast. Some place called the Kennedy Centre. I er know about that. Here are Rick! Try to stop him falling down the road. What? Just stop him falling down the road. Just thought I'd . Whoop! Oh! I'll take the others as well. Can you stick tomato sauce actually. Do you wanna chip Rick? Er, no, no thanks. What time is er Jenny in at? Oh! She's not in today? No. Jenny? Is Jenny in? She's been in and away again . Oh! Right, at half four. She can't go tonight can she? I believe she's caught on smoking. She got in big, big trouble if they see her like she's Oh was that alright? What school does she go to? Wallace is it? Wallace, yeah. And she was caught smoking? Ask her. But I couldn't thought. Cos I caught Nathan smoking. Where? Where ? Oh I try not to smoke around him, you know, but erm Mike had left this on the floor on, in the ashtray I remember doing that other time as well as me. and it pulled over and the next thing I saw this smoke puffing, Nathan was sitting Choking to death! Probably dead , you know and his nappy stinking and he was blowing it! Bit of smoke, that's why he was going woo ha, like that, and he was coughing and spluttering now, like I was a I was like smoking round him. dunno whether he learnt his lesson now. Oh God! Aye! Made him sick! Shouldn't be like that! I know! That's fucking I know! Like, it's a bit ridiculous but I like Well you didn't have to do that because er, well she sa And he set it as a, as an example as an example so Think I'd get a better example like . Hello. Hello son. Is it alright if I borrow one of your son's ties? No. No. Thank you very much! Why did you ever ask? Don't you let him take it. I'll give him I'll give him one of mine. What? Which one, which one . Because I'm going out with people from work tonight and seeing as I'm so it'll look a bit off. Oh you want something different? Aye. What are doing with the people you work with then? He probably wouldn't understand it, Timmy. One of the girls I work with is getting married and has got married today and Oh it's the disco is it? Aye. And where is the disco? Er, some erm hotel out at the airport. How you going to get there? Well somebody, some of the, one of the guys that I works with coming to pick me up. Do you want his purple one, is that what you're looking for? Oh well I thought he had a Here's a purple one. sort of like maroony one with purple bits on it. Aye, that's what I'm talking about. Go and get that. Aye. Er, the purply one? Here it is. Aye, that's the one.. It's covered in disgusting bits! What about that? He won't let me near it. Used to Walter's tie. Aye What is? that's a cracker! I've heard it's It's too thick. That was why, why he didn't wear that. I know that. Some day you'll, somebody go out in a fight and you'll get that . Some day. Are you there? Yeah. What? After you've finished painting. I don't know where his purple tie is. You never, did you? Yeah. It's where he started.. Oh well. You don't have a purple tie in there Iain? Oh no! Or is it? Ah! Don't hang it on the back of his door! Just a little bit in the corner. Those . No, but they look good. No, don't worry about it. Yeah, I'll get it collected. They're funny looking aren't they, though? I got a picture of one if you want it Jonny. What? I got a picture of one if you want it. That's the one . It's not on the back of his door? Sorry? It's not on the back of his door Jonny? No. Perhaps he'll wear it. But he probably has got it. It's like goldy bits. That's the only tie I've got, I think of his. Aye. Tha , that one'll do quite nicely. Will it? Right. Thanks a lot. I'll just try it on just for a se , for a second if you don't mind. No, course not. No. But Jonny . But they're tomorrow night. What do you want in here? We're looking for a tie. We've found it. You've found it? Aye, I'm trying to put it back on this rail. Aye. Ah! What am I here for? Remind me if I can help you. You could look in the drawers now. Oh I've done that. . Just take it downstairs. Got enough clothes ain't he? That's it. Take them downstairs. A bit posh . Er, oh yes! Definitely posh! Have them . That's right. Mind if I just use your room? You don't want a leather tie? Which is the narrowest. No. Right. I wonder whether he ever wore that? What? I said, I wonder if he ever wore it? That's when we were into er leather and cardigans and pink jumpers and stuff. Really cool, eh? Can't be cool. What? You can't get . I know. Is Clare going? No. Ah, that's a cracker! That does you alright then. Definitely. taken off. Are you gonna keep it? Oh definite! Probably won't loosen the tie again. Where's dad? I think he's outside. Are you? Yeah. Do you think he'll tell me he's he's worried about how they look? A spare time job? Thought it was pretty good like. I'm sure, it's illegal. Sure it is. Well I co , quite sure it's illegal. It's a, it's a sort of thing they could do. And it, and I And I think he meant to do it. I have. When I had to do that trip on my own. Even if it was your they're saying it belonged to yourself. I know. But I told you didn't I? Did I swear once? Have you not noticed that my life has changed? And you'll be able to swear. What? You know, you'll have to sort of be on your best behaviour! I don't, I keep on forgetting about it and like I'm just talking normal like. Because, they want they just, just want people talking normal like. It'll be interesting though. It'll be, it's not the one Have you found out why they wa , they want them? Or Well just tell you why? Yes. For a Longmans English Spoken Language Dictionary, Dictionary. Who said that? Ha? I've got all the leaflets over the house if you wanna, if you wanna see them. Aye. Bring it over some time. Yeah, ask them yo , you ought to bring one over. Oh I see ja , what did you think it was for? Who's actually doing it? It's erm, some research company in Northern Ireland. Richard said it was Boots. Boots? Or Marks and Sparks or something like that. Aye, I'm getting a, I'm a getting a token from Marks and Sparks because Oh no, no , no, no, no! He actually thinks it's Marks and Sparks that are doing it. Oh no! I thought it was a marketing ploy. No, it's erm the woman who's doing it ha also does a lot of research for Marks and Spencers you see so See, you didn't explain it to him very well. No I didn't. Well I was, I was a bit Or he wasn't listening very hard. I was a bit confused at the start too, but then once you read Ah! But now you ca once I read all the leaflets now you're crystal clear? Aye, I'm crystal clear. Right. So it's for a marketing company who are are helping . I thought it was actually for a marketing company who are studying the language of young people to use in commercials. Well no, it wasn't young people. It's supposed to be anything like there's two Sorry! there's four people in Northern Ireland doing it. And er, and there's two young people and two older Two people. oh really old people on it then? Yeah, old people. Forty three year olds or thereabouts? Yeah. Yeah. And they get Yeah. So there you go. Oh yeah. Good man! You see, again Ricky told me that you were doing, doing this sort of thing. Oh well,. forty sides of forty five minutes then it's ready. She's just keep wondering why's he away to the loo again! That's it! What's he smoking? That's wha that's what it'll be. Well I'll have to tell I'll tell them that you're head then young teachers and just go out and join a class of tutors . Why? Have you talked to the actual class? They gotta do it with one hand in their pocket. No, cos I'll be sitting like you said, so then they'll be just like everyone going, what the hell are you doing? And I'll be . Once one person try and do it, like that's it in school like. It's totally ruined like that. Well people will forget anyway. Aye. But they wouldn't forget for like, the first day and then Och! They don't People wouldn't run around sort of being suspicious of you all the time. No! But like di , people will be finding out at different do you see what I mean? Cos they Oh aye. Hey! Have you just heard ? Yeah, that sort of thing. They do their worst. You get those people Where is it ? Why? Because I know won't. Rubbish! Da da, da da da . What time are you going up? Well we're supposed to be going at seven and and I'm kinda rushing about. Oh is every body there? Ah? Are they all there? No, just me and Mandy. Oh right. See they said they weren't going down until half past Mhm. and kinda wanted to go down early. Early. Get in. But er . Alright. Okay? Aye. Well I'm going I've got twenty five quid which I wasn't expecting to get. I'm gonna need it this week and or next Saturday cos I'm in in the morning, and I'm getting I think I'm gonna get boots as well. Boots? Aye. What type? Erm like biker boots. Mm mm! What do you mean? Mm mm! Nothing. Have you What? thought where you're going if you're only gonna have drink? What do you mean? Mm mm! Nothing! Do you want me to run with you? Yeah. Are you sure? Aha . What do you mean? Mm mm! Nothing like. No. Why? Mm. You don't like them? I do like them! Course I like them. Right. Mm mm mhm, ah ha! Christ! I better go. No. Yes. Right. Okay? And I'll speak to you tomorrow. Okey dokey. Okay? Are you going out tonight? Yeah, I'm going to a wedding thing so Behave yourself. Tut! Pardon? You heard! And don't think about putting the phone there. What? Don't think about putting the phone down will you? You're lucky I didn't! Am I? Okay? Aye. Right. I'll ring you around er, two something. About what? Oh that's a secret. Look,tell me now! No, I have to go. No ! Yes! Tell me! No. Just tell me what it's about . From your mum and dad or from work? No, from somewhere else. Who? Another source. Who? No, I have to go. Tell me who! Your granddad. No. Who. Look! I just have to go. Okay. Fine! Cheerio! Right, see you . Bye! Bye . Alright Stephen? Good God! Alright. How are you? Alright. Good. What's that for? Oh! It's in my pocket. What? Yeah. You look alright. Are you? What you got on here? Oh we it was er, do you know where Karen lives? Have you been to Karen's house before? Colin and his dad are in the same flipping outfit! Go to the same place! That's nice of you. I should come out and ask if he's See, there can't be that much difference . Hey! . I'll have it. Can I have one of those ? You know I really like you! That's right boy! You keep er, the way he se keeps talking about him like you used to Have you never seen him? he's er, no. Shame! Gonna leave that on tonight? No, I'll jus , I'll stop it there. Some of you drink tonight, I've gotta drive. Yeah, I'll drink. Aha. There's the road here. Is it here? Aha. Will you drink tonight then? You're drinking anyway. And you're driving and you're fucked! Can't fucking drive! Drinking. No, I'll have one, er one pint. Just that pint. No I can't stand to watch it. I'm trying not to really drink. Chi chi chi, chi chi, chi chi chi chi chi chi chi chi chi. Try not to make a comparison. That's her. Aye. She's very dumpy. Well don't you say that! ? Yeah. Well maybe we could learn to play with you. You'll have to , I mean have a . Is Mark going out as yet? I thought that was her. Very happy is that what you meant? I meant . Anyway, I'm happy. Oh dear! Oh dear a copper! Oh, catch them. Oh! I dare you man! Alright, I'm a police cars, we haven't got our seat belts on they're advertising so much. Well you do need to if you have them in them in the back now. So!for there. You know bridge? I was walking across from suddenly being squashed under one and I had four guys in the car and they were all giving me defence. One of them had to stick up for me . Driver got a hundred quid and Some of this!. No I was a , it was when I was going to work, in was in the afternoon like. What's that? It's alright. I'll be careful. You'll end up like that! Speaking to you! What? I haven't got any money, like . What the fuck! You'll be fucking, I'm sure you would ! Erm This one for the bikes. Yes? That one there. On her bike. What? What? Isn't, isn't that the one back there before the bridge on the other side? Where? Next, you know they race to the top of there like well I reckon it's the one just past it. Are you sure? Got the wrong fucking side then have we? I think, I thought it was. Cos is it, is it down this way? What? Oh aye, I told him not to. Colin, did you get boots? Ah? Did you get boots? No. I'm gonna be able to get mine Saturday. I thought that man . They live next door to me. Is that true? Yeah. Aha. Moira and Mary Anne. They live next door to me. Janice and, I don't know where she lives . I couldn't smile and she didn't know . That's what Adrian said this morning. Sorry! Right. Listen! I've got directions to this place. Aye, I know where it is come on up here. No, we're there. Alright here. Stephen knows the man. He phoned the so he did. Oh Christ! I had no seat belt on here. There isn't one There isn't one anyway. Oh! Right I know . But which end? Are you coming in? A little. See erm Did you see them? er Margot she's not going did you know? Aye. I saw her in the , disappointing, you know. Yeah! Do you know would have happened, but you know would have happened, right, erm Bernard do you mind if I smoke? Aye. Do you really? Only if you use an ashtray . What? Oh! Said if you use the ashtray, can you roll the Haven't got one. window down? Ought to be sat there. That's what, that's what I thought. Aha. There we are, I think I've got it. You'll be like, do you want one? No I've got one. I've got one. Bernard do you want a cigarette. Only after one I've had. Thank you. Well give me one of them now? Have you a wee Yeah. light? Yeah. That's better. Give me one of those . A what? Would you like one. Let me try one of those. Jackie's Do you want one? gonna be your mate. Anyway. Erm, she said that, what happened was, Margot said to me erm today she says er oh I've got something to tell you! And I says what is it? And she said, you know er Three and a half thousand pound, I walked into the bank and took it out. I know. Something like that there. But, she turned round and she said erm, how do you roll the window down here Bernard? They electric windows? Right, oh! Up a wee bit Bernard love. Some more at the back. Ah! The motors are fucked! I've got like. Oh I've got it! Oh I've got it. Plenty of room Bernard. Fuck you! Where is that? I've got it. What one there? I suppose it's the back ones then. That's it. Och! It'll ruin the hair! Don't worry about it. It'll ruin the hair. Oh what! I saw Robin,looks, looks very well look! No I can't. Here are. No matter which way they'll be sure to watch. Don't worry! Na ah ah ah! If they can, we can. We'll just have to tell everybody, she goes, right the way down and straight over the top of them . Right over, bloody dancing around right. These look really nice. Oh when was that? Ah, you look lovely! I think it's go back just then. No, so erm Margot, she said er, oh I've got something to tell you! And I said what's that then? But this is what made me a, a wee bit suspicious, right because, we work in the office, and she said oh Karen! She said, you know erm, I can't get any money out from the bank. And I said, why's that then? She said that, ah, because they've put on minus three thousand pound wha , a loan that she had. And I said, oh was that right? I says that much, it's the only that I'm not really into going to to discos and things, and she says and anyway Well that's what I'm on about, she's not gonna be at this one. What? Yeah, that's right. I don't care if a ba , it bounces. Well Yeah. it won't bounce. She got herself in big trouble! Well it won't bounce because she got that money saved th , she got that money for her loan. She had but I forgot er, she forgot to give me erm, money from the money club. It's her money and she forgot . You may get it off from her. Yeah. Keep hounding her. But erm But anyway but anyway She'll sell me something . She does not! Ooh! It's just a motorbike. But anyway But anyway Right! Have to get that in So anyway. Mhm. So this is, what got me a bit suspicious right, well I speaking to her and all and I said, well you know, this is it and, you know she said she knows George is, is meant to be coming up and I said look and I says and I'm gonna go down onto the floor here, and just as I was to go onto the floor there was a phone call right, and it was Alice. You took the call Stephen. And it was Alice, right, and as I was going out to the door, she said to Alice, Alice must have said to her, are we going tonight? And here was Margot it's, it's been called off, or it's called off. To, to Alice? It was called off, there was the , she said it's been called off. And that's what she said. So, I don't know. So is she going somewhere else? I would say so. And, oh, unless George, er he was erm he was coming up so I felt a plonker! He was there tonight? Aye. What? He was there tonight. Oh was he? Ah! Well then that's it then. That is it then. Look super don't they? Oh he's lovely! Look at that there! I bet you is wife's delighted he's having an affair! Ha! Bad! Is he married, seriously? Certainly is. You're looking He is. very well . She'll be wise enough . And wee Bernard's looking well too. And Andrea. Well thank you ! You're all gorgeous so you are! I feel like a real slut! Yeah I know. I do ! I'm not joking ! Ah, I don't wanna know. You know what Aye. our Colin Twenty past eleven. What? Twenty past eleven. What? Is she sure! Bernard! Keep both fucking hands on the wheel, right! That fucking hurt I've gotta say! Colin's Colin's nervous so he is. Bernard don't! What? Is that nice ? Bernard for heaven's sake! You does, and he does. Well actually Bernard, Get me a fag in a minute. Now Bernard, if you really want to have a wee drink tonight love, I'll drive home. Aye, you'll be alright Like, you know! It's no problem ! Thanks. I'll drive, sure I will. Never park . Then, I'm gonna get home alive this time. Who's in tonight? Who's the black guy following Colin? What? Who's the black guy in front of, that's no mate of . Are you taking this? Aye. But I'll go down or something. Och! I think we have. Really. Well he's , he's no , he ge that's not a full time job like, but I mean, it used to be one, but Well I think they have to use, you know, he's do , he's, he's in, he's in . Not very good. Can't be like. I don't know. Twelve fifty ! See it's twelve fifty a go like! Och! It's . Twelve fifty? Ten minutes. Stephen? That is so dear that! Well I must admit Norman 's the best. I still don't think That's fair enough. Och! He is, he's really, really good! He's something like this, there my brother. If my brother He's brilliant , like! And if he can pass My brother has a . if he can get me through my test, he can get anybody through! Aye, he can. He's good! Och! He's really brilliant Bernard! Not like he's just, I'm in the . It's you that told me about him wasn't it? He doesn't like that. He does! And like, he's really, really good! I thought I'd fail . He of , no you're okay, you're okay cos you'll get through and all. What? There's there. the people live there? Erm nearly four years. No! Just over three years. Three years in February. And just over four years in October. I can't believe it the way they've got that house. How long have you known him for? A year. He's the only other guy who's . Do you think Margot? Aye. Yeah. Well I don't know her really well, but I know her to speak now. Sitting with George. Och, she is, she's with but did you remember Christmas? I think , I think you and Joanne were fucking about. Do you know we used to have a real laugh, because you ever remember the time that erm You he had a mohican? Yeah. And then Do you know about those things? Yeah! I knew him when he had a mohican. I knew and I knew him when He was sort of saying . I know, like he's I put his on like, he he used to really make me laugh, like some of the things he'd come out with, like He are so funny! Did you ever remember with him with his ha , with his hair extensions? Yeah. He used to find them all round the place ! He used to go out into my garden and say oh he's, oh he's tonight, it would be er, one of his hair extensions ! Oh but he's a good la , he's really quietened down and all now,now. Och! He was so funny! You got a ma , er, a kid now. I don't think So, he got married We got packed all round us. Eh! See the girl he got married to now, she's really lovely! She's , she is. I haven't seen him for e he was coming to the shop now and again, so he was. That Yeah. . Yeah he ? What? What? Some people . Who? What happened ? Oh he had a, he had a very good use Ended up . she's good at that. That guy come into the house. Into the shop. I don't, he comes in, not all the time now, but he would come in now and again. And really funny, eh? Not , I got on, got on really well with him. Well he said . But he's always, he's always making really funny comments and you see, when he's drunk he is well funny, like he is now. I remember, you know er Michelle that works up in the Body Shop? You know that thing about her father ? Well aye, I know Bernard ! Do you know the thing about her father like, er ta er of all the stolen meat in his shop, did you ever hear about that? Right, would you,me , well obviously you remember that then, he had stolen meat, right, in his shop, well Michelle was round my patio right, one summer, it must be about maybe three years ago. We were sitting on our patio having a drink one Sunday and who That's where, all the meat's gonna be. Right. And we were sitting having a wee drink you know like. , yeah well. Was there? Yes. Ticked off the intruders. What happened? Alright John? Fucking doing his ! Something that Sandra told me. Ah! Ah! So, er, we were having a drink, you know, and er this is after her father got done for er stealing you know, for hauling stolen meat, and we were sitting and all and Christopher was , and Michelle said, oh, and you know the way she gets on Bernard, like, oh you're gonna have to come round to my house and we'll have a really lovely barbecue and all, and there was steaks. And here's Chrissie fucking he says, aye he says, and he says where are you fucking getting the meat from, from the back of a lorry! Right! Are you sure! She bursting into tears and ran off home ! Where you getting the meat, from the back of lorry ! Fuck she was right, but that was Christopher like, you know, like he is just, ah he's just so funny! And then there's that Some of the things he says! I know like he is, but she's, but that's but look Er sh at least she was amused. but you you know He said something about it. you know what er you know , you know, you know er, Michelle tonight Bernard? Fucking dick! Here, do you know what she's doing for the Body Shop now? She's a merchandiser for Northern Ireland. Och! You're . I swear to God! Cos a I I've got the contracts right in the Body Shop, we got Karen she used to work in Superdrug, and she came in there the other day and I'm saying, och, do you know Michelle ? She said, och I do she said. I says, what was she doing down in the shop the other day? He says oh Karen she's er merchandising now for Northern Ireland. She's thick! Thick! Och! Oh I love You go her really! ! That's right. Do you remember that day, Bernard, she come in the shop and he he here he is with a wee Pot Noodle and, and it's going all over the floor ! She says, hi Bernard! You didn't go out with her Bernard? Fuck off! No. She is the one with the . Alright, thousands of . Just concentrate! I think it's an ashtray you know. Oh, will park here. Sorry Bernard! Ooh ooh! Stupid dick of the first degree! Where is Margot going on holiday th th this year? she isn't having one. No I don't think, I don't so. Go down. Margot makes That's in one of them photos, we're at that bar. I didn't know you were coming down. We wasn't er going anywhere else Bernard except for that, that and the supermarket I don't think you go on holiday . and a stray alsatian dog ! True! That's what the photographs consisted of! The supermarket. I've got some supermarket, and er, a bar , and this alsatian dog that Margot wanted to er take it through customs to look after it. there. She won't even bought a rabbit! That's where she was pulled there one night. Aye. Aye, that young feller. Says, that'll be the day erm I says that really well and she says actually Bernard, she says I remember . Oh no! Did you get that too ! I got it coming back from the church as well! Like a confessional in her. the finer points! Have you heard of this? It's like In her hair. And her She puts conditioner in her hair and her wet Finer points. she was twenty five minutes late, that's what it was, she said Oh yeah. och, do you know I was five minutes late, but that was different I was twenty five minutes late, I I didn't even ask her why, cos I knew we'd in the door like as I'm walking through it. She obviously thi thinks she can tell you the story, you know, and she says er I put on conditioner on my hair, and Sarah That's right. went up, fucking cos she said! So we had go through my own and my wedding dress down to her dress, she put on her wedding dress That's right. And down. And the chauffeur drove me down in the car and sat beside the car waiting on me. You know what she'd hate to see now them fucking neighbours out there! I had to sit there because Ah , see she told me I sat actually sitting talking and drinking and the er in the house, that's where her wedding dress was and the chauffeur sitting beside and I think he went away laughing. That's right. That's right. Aye. Yeah. Ah. I heard that . And her uncle with me beside you and whole wedding and the minister was saying, sit down and don't he he brought her up the aisle, I don't know whether her father's coming back or something, and he says no I'm not sitting like, he says no I'm not moving back and he stood there for the whole wedding like,back. Like they I got it as well. was fucking every night but I don't think she wants to. Oh I he that Did you break it off then? I think it is, probably that . So did I. Did you not hear that one Stephen? No what did she say? Right, she was in the swimming suit right, and she diving off the board or off the side or something. Not falling off Anyway th one of the legs dropped between the bars and she was drowning, so she had to break her two legs! Ah fuck! Stuck down behind the bars and Yeah. she couldn't get out and nobody could And she was drowning she had to break her leg! She was drowning so she had to Ah! break her legs to get out of them! She had to break both her legs. Gees, those bars at the edge of there you can't bloody ge get your fingers through never mind your Honestly your legs trapped! I pissed myself when heard that! Ah! Ah fuck ! Honestly! What's she like? But she's not a bad person like, she's She's a cunt! Well I dunno, but like she's not really . I reckon she's a cunt! but she's co , you know, she's not a bad person, but she just tells such really Waltered. A Walter maybe, you know like? But she's what's happened you know. You know like,i it's just sort tha , I know that, but I know that story tonight was a fib you know Of course. about er, the erm one you know like, because you i , it just wouldn't happen! You know like she's she just wanted to be the daughter like. You know if yo Ah that was the one there was two painters or something Och! Remember that day? and Oh please Bernard! Oh God! Slide down the ladders and all. And she had to go out, but no Bernard now you forgot this bit here, she was, er house, the decorators were painting her house at three o'clock in the morning ! Aye,tha that's what it was. That's what it was. They were painting her house at three o'clock in the morning right, and Margot Who? bu , well listen now, this is how the story I'm sure she . goes right. And er, Margot was behind the and they were painting her house and somebody fell and she had to go and give them artificial respiration or something didn't she? Ah. Three o'clock in the morning! Oh God! And it's our, and it's his fault for like I think she got expelled from if I can remember. And then I would say so. if that would be she won't Do you know admit it. Do you know whe we, we were talking about qualifications, right? That's right, and was she in th the army? She was in the Metropolitan Police and the army! That's where I remember her from! She done us for skating up the fucking Hill! Ach! No. Swear to God! Definitely! I knew whenever I saw her, first time I was in the shop that I recognized her from somewhere. Ach! No well And another I'll tell you She was with somebody. She was with, you know you know that fucking cunt of a policeman! He always in that the wee hut half way up he Aye. erm ? Who was that? She wasn't in our police though. She was in the Metropolitan Police, and then she was in the army o , I think she was in the army over here as well then. Jesus man! She wasn't in the police over here. Mm. Oh fuck! She lives in ja What? Some of the stories they're just so funny! What is, what is wrong with her, like? I mean Er, she's a Walter Mitty! But tha that is just it, you know. every time. I reckon that it's just . I fucking had the hump if I just I know fucking said that! Karen goes after it, yeah. And tomorrow night and she just said, fucking said I know. Yes, I know. Me and Bernard, if me and Bernard want to go, she di now was she, foot like that they're under the table, when you see his feet, his ! And then he has to get up and go! So I'm kicking him under the table ! But the, er Bernard you must admit the best one of all was the, the full works of the Encyclo Brittannia falling on her head! But what about the one all daughters oh what was it? What one? Erm about the fucking boxer and Whitney Oh Whitney Houston ! ! Oh that is the best ! That's the phone call to that there Whitney Houston Ah that's it. . She says Do you know what I was doing to you today? Right, do you remember when I was saying to you right, and you said to me, what is it you want? What is it you want? Well I was trying to draw your attention, right she had pieces of pink paper right that was mi , and on the desk, on our side and on it it had a fe , erm it was she'd she had received some er goods or something like that there, it was on a piece of pink paper and the signature on it was Houston ! I swear to God! And I started waving to you Where was this? Well we were on the shop floor right, and I turned round, I said, do you remember I kept saying to you, Colin! Colin! And I said, and you were saying to me, what is it that you want? What is it that you want? And here's me, fuck I wish you'd keep your fucking trap shut so I can tell him what it is ! And that's what I was gonna say to you, like. Wha why is the ? Whitney Houston ha , you remember like Whitney ? No, see you call her we call her Houston so we do. I said she calls herself Margarite . But we Hers is Her three uncles were professional boxers Boxers. So, and and was the And goes what do you call them, fucking Whitney Houston! So you see he used to be a boxer years ago, in the fifties wasn't it? Whitney . Whitney right, and he was a wee small boxer and he used to hits them and going like that then! Well Do you know, and he was a wee wee tiny wee er boxer and, I was sitting up erm on lunchtime with her one time Will somebody . Down the airport. Where? Near the airport will be fine. Where the, down here? And we, I was sitting up having my break with her one day, right, and your man erm er Frank Bruno and the other feller, that big Mike Tyson were fighting right, and we were sitting watching it right, and erm, Paul was sitting there and all and Margot turned round and says you know, she said it's desperate Karen! I says, what's wrong? And she says well you see if Frank Bruno wasn't sort of and stuff like he'd be a better boxer. Not exactly that, but I says do you know very much about boxing? Do I know a lot about boxing she said? Sarky bitch! She says my uncles were professional boxers right! And I was holding myself back,tha tha , Paul was looking and trying to make me laugh! And then we went down on the floor and he went over to Bernard and he says, och! Have you told Bernard the story and he turned round and he said, who the fuck was it that you told her brother I've seen Jason ! Aye. He's the best ever Oh, but she was telling me that down in Belfast everybody took, they used to say to her, fuck off Margot! Stop fucking telling lies! Do you remember Bernard, he said that ? Nobody believed her like! Oh God! It was just, och it's so funny! Some of the things she comes out with I could tell you. And what about, do you remember the day, Bernard, she was coming to work? I think she'll tell you them , did he tell you? Ah? She was co , she told Oh yeah. she co told me she was coming to work one day, right, and you know the way she has to go past York Street Police Station? Well, the next thing right, the bus was flagged down right,as he was going past York Street Police Station , and, a policeman come out and says, hey you mu , he stopped the bus man, the police waved the bus down, like, me and Margot were sitting on the bus going to work like , and they went in the bus and said is Margot Mar Margot on the bus? And here's Margot, yes I'm here! Like that right, and she walked down the bus and this, the policeman said to the bus driver, oh you'll have to hang on a wee minute because I have to speak to this woman here. So Margot got off the bus and the policeman says, now you have to really vigilant today Margot there's a lot of bombs in Lisburn Right ! And Margot went thanks very much,and got back on the bus. And the policeman waved the bus on again ! Oh, and bu by the way Margot was about half an hour late for work that morning and that was the story that we got. She said, a bus was flagged down by about seven, six policeman she claimed. That is not the worst! It's not the worst. That is what she said. But how much of it . I haven't heard her say that like. It'll be the first time somebody fucking kick in the head ! Ah honestly! Heard it what about the best, when he husband stood on her feet and pulled her hair out of it! Forgot about that. I don't even know that, I could just see him. But she must be a very insecure person. Where you going! Go back ! ! Oh! Where you going ! I'll go up here like. That's the army bit. Fuckers just used it as well same as us ! I thought you were going through the fucking the bollard! I thought what th , I thought what the fuck is he doing! Fucking gonna get shot to tell you too good for I R A! But anyway erm she told me she's staying with her mum and hyped up and , is that tape going? Well no, I didn't get that there now. Don't move! Right. She's typed up and then said she's hyped up because her sister works for the R S P C A, and she's That's right. no money and she said she'd got, she'd got a loan from the bank to pay her mummy for her That's right. house, because she says Paying that was not . But you know,, the best of it is like that erm you know, that's why I don't think that Margot It's about three and half thousand pound ain't it? Yeah. But Margot , but Margot tells me that she's loaded. And she's a ring on her finger that's worth what is it, Bernard, five grand or something? Oh aye. You know, so, I don't know. And then i , but the best of it was the other day we She's living near . the, the best, well the best of it was she was saying to us that er her uncle owns half of Gleneagles Hotel. Aye. But, aye do you remember that Bernard ? And her uncle and I know, her uncle owns half of his partners have their own golf courses and everything. I know, like play like they were given . Because I was joking I'd said to her erm about er, you know my daddy right is er you know,th right, you know mum and daddy lived in Edinburgh and I was saying that my daddy was about the fees in erm Gleneagles, my daddy's er, a member of Gleneagles Do I go right here towards this? Yes. and I said, you know, like it's really, really expensive, my daddy was complaining about how much the fees are, like they're really expens , so Margot says och! Well you should have said, she said,because my uncle owns half of Gleneagles ! What's she fucking It's the old ! Have you seen what Gleneagles is like? Fuck! It is, it is a trust! I think it's up there. Bernard, it's not up there! Bernard I think it's up that lane you just come down. It's up a wee lane so it is, you have to go. Yeah. Is that where you're going? It's up that I think it's up that lane. It's up that lane. Just turn right You know. at Templepatrick What? Where's your directions? Here. Right, and Templepatrick and then sign for Antrim then R T on left. Is that down the road? No. Er Follow the signs for Templepatrick and then the sign for Antrim. That's that back there. Templepatrick next, across the lights. Was it? I think it's on just here. Here's the sign anyway,Templepa watch the lorry! Where is it? Said some fucking bollocks! Aha. They said like nine o'clock. What time is Gill driving round? Do you think that's wise? You can tell there's three guys ! Oh! I know! I bet you Gary'll come down looking like fucking Pete ! Hold on. Hold on. Bastard! Fucking that, what's happened to your arm? There. Up that way. I think we should go back Bernard. Yeah? What's that? . We are, we're coming to a house. I know. It's not on, like. It is. And look where Bernard said there's an . You're not supposed to say there's no there Excuse me, do you know where James and Petra's wedding reception is? I'm sure it is Bernard. Well that takes you to Antrim. Well it's not up the other way. road down there. It is the other way like. It's just that we went down there . Well this for people round here. Where are these people from? Ask that man there. Turn it down. See, you went, you went er fucking bananas again! Excuse me! Can you tell me where's the Nardy Hotel is? Aye, you've passed it. . Turn right there, just there that road Thank you. and er straight ahead. Turn Right. right up there? Aye. Turn right, second See! I told you! Well if you want to go on down just right. Go right down to, er through the arch Through the arch. and that brings you up onto the main Belfast road Yeah. turn right two Yeah. miles along that you come past the , right, on your right hand side there. So , I take my first right here. No! No. Er you go to the arch I know where the arch is. Ah! Dead on. If you go down Road there, I know they're getting confused, if you go just straight up below the arch onto the main road to Belfast and Antrim, turn right up the top of the road a bit, and it's your first er it's building on the Two mile up. three mile up on your right across the road. On the right. Cheers love! I know where it is. Right. Fine. Yeah! Thanks a lot. Thank you. Thank you! Bye! Now Bye! See, I told you it was that, you know it's He did not, he said Well he's just said, he said the wrong way Yeah but we could still go this way. Yeah. I know where the arch is so keep going. Pull over in here? Where you going? No, I this morning. Move out the way. You know where the arch is? Then, turn right at the arch road, it's up here. That leads you in the arch. Well we know where we're going now. Aye aye yeah ! Been that pub. But er, we haven't even have gone through the arch yet. The arch is right there. Gonna turn right? Yep. Then three miles down the road on your left. After the arch he said. Yeah, this is it, turn right here. Turn right here? No. No, under the arch. Right, here we go. Have we gone too far then? No. Go right here. I know where we are! I know where we are! ? No, I know where it is now! Right. And it's up here and then it's a wee turning on the er on the left. On the right. O left. Right! The man said up on the right ! Two miles up the road on the right, you can't miss it. No. It's a big fucking room! A big house! A big building, hotel he said. fucking room, house, house hotel ! I remember that. It's up here. Motorbike, is it th No it's not this one. Very similar to a Linberg what do you call that top of the old one er top of the . Must be my he thought it was made up like. Ah. Yeah,we wes double western. Oh erm O one. O one. What's that for? Well you can't,to move o , and gone to the left an O one. O one ee Is that O one? That's O one. It's there. Aye. Simon's in his house. A way down and another Oh! Excuse me. Oh! That's not it Bernard. That's someone's house. Fucking awful big house haven't they? I nearly wasn't gonna come tonight when I re , found out I wasn't gonna Gary wasn't coming to give us some like. He's nearly as bad as Margot. Bernard, she maybe hasn't has on it. Hey. Gary, always there. I know like. Said he'd be back in six weeks. I know, ah. Six weeks? But he's not sure, it depends on whether he gets the money or not like. He hasn't got any money for it yet like, but then He'll probably swim over like! He has been going . Mm. No I thought he had like Oh God ! with them and all, it must be so harping on and on about it like. Maybe it's just a big step . I'm just going to pull over here and then You know what er, killed me? All the people he goes to meet for dinner and tea. the sign. And last week when he brought in, he brought in pâté for his toast like. Smack! Fucking so sophisticated like! They're not bothered. Oh you're such a bitch! What? You're such a bitch! I'm not usually, but seeing people like that Gary and Margot just fucking kill me! Hang on a bit. Here you are. Here it is. It's it. That's erm . On the left. No. On the left! Do you know the way, your fucking left! What? See how they're getting . Aye. But where is he? What will he say? Probably getting fucked stupid right now! they do. You, you imagine what she'll do. What's wrong with you? What's This? Ah Coline, you have to get out and show your boot. Show your ring. Show your your worm, where is it? What? My what? Your worm ! Sorry ? Your worm. Show my worm, oh aye! Oh it's there Oh aye! somewhere. You never told me anything. It was lovely! It was . Mm. Did you keep it? What? Oh yes, aha.. Er, tomorrow, these are all gonna be Alright mate. changed and we we used to make canoes A what? He, he was gonna have them skinned. What? Paddy Skinned. was these natives and the chief native ge guy goes in tomorrow, tomorrow morning we're gonna skin you and use you to make canoes but you have one last wish tonight. Paddy, the Irishman goes well your native girls like and I'll take them round the back. So, he gets them up and he's and er Me first. Well whatever you do whatever they do to Yeah. native girls and then Paddy goes to like what do yous have for like alcohol over here? And the chief goes like well I'll have a and Paddy the Irish man goes can I have a fork? And the guy gives him a fork, and he goes does that mean my fucking ! I've heard it before . I knew part of it. It was a good . It was, aye. Well, well let him think your is going to work. Fucking, it's all there. All you got was the house, aye? If you could sell we won't tell him. Yeah. Christine's mum. Yeah? Getting really bad er I didn't . Good for you! Give me some more. See the big fucking homes More. here! As long as you're round about there all the whole house is central locked. That's fucking daft! That's what your like if you get up in the morning? No, it's alright. As long as I could well I do know ho how to work it like before I go to bed and . What about, if it's just got a and a it? Yeah, I thought it would be her. Half a bottle of conditioner like, does it good. Her expensive, really expensive stuff she got on her hair. Oh! Erm But do you? Don't try to walk in Dublin! An extra large . It's just at the mall. It came this morning. In fact , they are handy when I go to the out there. Oh well that's the place. Ah ho. Sit in the back! Karen listening too. Do yous wanna hear this What is it or not? ? or not? What did you actually say? Turn that music off just so I'm going to tell you something. I was in, in Belfast on Thursday night and you know Corn Market? Aha. You know the bandstand in Corn Market? Yeah. Me and Neil were working through Corn Market and these two birds were standing in the bandstand full blinding drunk! Couldn't even stand! And was sta , and these young fellers were all shouting , screaming at them, ooh ah! Get your clothes off to these girls. And they didn't, this is at half seven, they're out shopping, everybody walks through, right. And when they started to shout these people out shopping, cos everybody stopped to see what the fellers screaming about. The next thing was one of lift, right, her shirt right up, she had a black, like silk bra on and pushes her tits together and the next thing was waves her bra about! And shapes her tits. But everybo , everybody could see! Half seven, broad daylight and all, everybody stopping! All the shops, cos like, cos they heard all the noise! Everybody! It was unbelievable! And they were all, all these people were going that's a bloody disgrace! But nobody Ah ah. was minding on, cos everybody the next thing was, the next one takes her top and takes it off her shoulder Oh lovely! and get her bra strap down. And the next thing, why and she whips her boobs for everybody to see, and they're all, yeah! Yo! All these big fellers about shouting , you know they was having a ball! And everybody was I'm not joking, there must have been a couple of hundred people that either they're shopping or watching, you know if they could. Next thing the cop parade and th they're for the cop cops didn't do anything. They fell out of the band fuck er, they were walking like this! It was fucking Yeah. hilarious! Starkers! Absolutely starkers! Just messing around. I just walk, without even seeing them like. An and they came to look after them. Oh well, you're engaged to be married. And they won't even . Were they ugly? Ah! Gross! Really ugly? Yeah. You know that, like, police girl in something about last week? Ah! Oh! Lovely! Oh! She's gorgeous! That's what she like. Was she really nice though Bernard? Ah. What? Did you ever go out with her? Did I, what? Did you ever have sex with her? Got to her bra, I think. Nothing like I've got with you Karen. No! If you're . Oh brother! What was that, er Colin? Would you? I don't want to say that. Erm, hopefully the . What? Looks like a fight. See if you'll fight him for No you have to. No, don't want it to get it out of hand. You saying I gave you some? No I did not! David has just ejaculated on the back seat! I certainly have not! I wasn't Will you shut them up! Bastard! Bernard, you have got Bernard, I thought you were gonna such a you were gonna look after me? I am. Erm I love you! Erm Make him say it! Erm, what was I going to say now? I don't fucking know ! You were interested in the same thing. Fucking hell! He, he loves me! What a wonderful woman! I know. You are all woman! I know, very you just love me so much! I could be arrested!in the back you know! David does nah Er I was David doesn't know where with the right sex you know! He just never No I wor does cos he always looking out the window. No because no but I Colin, let me say it. Well anyway Bernard, you've got such a country accent at times. It's Belfast. No it's not. Not bleeding Belfast! Shut your fucking book! Bernard, aren't you going to ask me? We are . And we're gonna throw you out and then see how much money we can get for you? What guy were you telling me? Er, the bald one. Oh well Is this mine? That wasn't very nice! I was just keeping it for wee Jonathan. No you ha , no you It is. It's no! I'm keeping it for him, like. He didn't know. It's me! Liar! Karen . Yes he did. He said we could borrow it like. Who's that? Oh ha , hang on! Hang on! Hang on! Look! There's a space. How kind! I won't get I'm gonna get in there. Oh. I like that car. I feel sick. Don't! What ? All I have left I didn't say that! Couldn't talk, like that ! He's worse! No. I would have said if you were gonna sit . This Emmanuelle, have you been playing Emmanuelle movies? Look! See! She has got a No I am not! movies. Back. Back. Okay. My wee friend. oh my God! I'll drive to Bernard, do you go up my way first? About tha tha What? Bernard. What do you say? Pretty wee house Bernard. What way, Bernard? What way do you think? Bernard said the hotel. I know. Right now Bernard, you're stupid! Aye, I know. And I didn't tell you now to make , probably that. Oh Bernard , not my house in as well! If you die I can keep the house all to myself can't I? No I only if your half dead.. Tha that's where we play tenpin. Shush! Alright. Are you ready Bernard? Yeah. . Alright? Yeah. If you say we can do the right , alright? Ha ha. I would do it. Yeah. Yeah. I . I know. Tell me! No! Tell me! Karen can't keep her hands out of your I swear to fuck! Karen! Fucking hell! I'm in love with her. I have to I have to fucking sleep around! Oh ! I get very jealous Bernard. I had a er . Are you faithful Bernard? Yeah. You bloody better be! Oh! I believe you Bernard. I hate those D J's and that, I'd rather die than put records on and get into their clothes! There are three paper, be careful! Alright, get in Are you? the front seat just have a good look round here. I've got it. Is that a, er a new one? Look out for a big, for a big girl. I can hardly believe it! Do you reckon Margot will be there? What? Do you reckon Margot will be there? Definitely not. Yeah like probably shocked everybody in the whole of West Belfast! An I R A suspect! Down her doorstep going Nee hee hee hee hee hee hee! What happened then? Like her mother is back in. I know. Big fucker! Look where you're going! Road. Road. Road. Road. Go on, drive, up this road now. Road. Have you got all money to go there tonight? . Ow! going to lose their job. I knew. Okay, I'll get you another. two, four What do you not like? six six, eight, ten, Oh fuck. You dickhead I was gonna you dickhead you dickhead. Nor do I. You dickhead get a drink. Aye well my wish come true. Pray for my wish to come true, I need eleven P, have you got eleven P? quid. No P. Have you got a quid in change? No. Pat have you got eleven P? I don't Stephen and if I did I definitely would lend it to you. Johnny old pal have you got eleven P ? I lent Gavin my money. Oh well. Mm? Sinead old pal have you got eleven P? No I haven't got anything. what do you call it? The Wizard of Oz. Oh no that's Dorothy sorry. No that's Dorothy, isn't it, the one that goes we were strolling along on moonlight bay, so you could hear the clouds singing you stole my heart moonlight bay. On moonlight baby Oh God ye gods. Aye well you can get the safest Is it? Aye. peanut butter and strawberry jam. Yes. Well it's Stephen's favourite Mm? Urgh. You can tell, you can tell most people tomorrow, just don't tell be in. Who's your boss? So it is. Wh what's doing now? The only people that know are you, him,and Claire. So let's keep it that way folks. Okay Danny Danny don't forget that Oh for god's sake Danny What do you look like? Let's just tell you what you look like, you came to me for a job you wouldn't get it. Well don't come in with the coat tomorrow please or after Easter. Right. was very impressive. I can tell you definitely be pissed off today. Oh it was definitely a cracker, did you hear that one? What? Colin says to him Jesus! For sakes! For fuck's sake Why? Och don't talk balls. In where? Well what can he say like? We, we didn't we didn't tell him to Don't say that wasn't funny. Did you go to er ? Yeah. You are going? Yeah. Are you not? Okay hang on. If you're not going I'm not going like. whenever I have my mind made up I'm as stubborn, stubborn as a mule like. Did he do it yesterday? Did he do it yesterday as well? Oh, You know the only two songs I haven't heard that er that I know exist of theirs are Prince and . They're on the one the one E P is it? Have you got it on tape? Yeah. Have you got it on tape? You coming tomorrow, no? Dee Dee Dee, Would you do me a favour? Get a record I just rea I mean I knew that I had heard of it then I realized . I mean that just like. Oh Kevin's gonna kill me you can't play it, you can't play it! Why can you not play it? Shall I get off at your house? I'll only be sitting in the coffee shop till five past five anyway like so Alright No they're gonna give me the record How long will it take you to walk into town, ten minutes, fifteen minutes? are you going to France tomorrow? No. Definitely? Well I'll have to check it out first. Why don't you just go in, sign on and then go out again? I know it sounds quite tempting. Oh excuse me. Oh you're a fat bastard oh you're a fat bastard oh you're a fat bastard, oh you fat bastard It's just play playing it without using, without strumming the strings. Can you do it? Can you do it? The left hand have you got a minute? Which hand's left and which hand's right? That's right. That's right. It's right hand fretting sir. sorry. Thanks. Sorry right hand fretting, has to be with the three fingers. Yeah I know. Ah sorry. Well I'll go er Willis Avenue. straight up past the Fire station. Do you like Flotsam and Jetsam What? Flotsam and Jetsam. Never heard of them. Dunno, sometimes it sounds a bit oper-ish opera-ish on it. But like I fits in quite well. your lawn looks quite it's quite nice suppose your gardener does it. Well he'll be pissed off all over it with football boots on. Yeah he will. No I'll be alright here thanks. Burp great. It's not really a burp is it? It's sort of more like a urgh urgh Is that the only two that I haven't heard Oh you off school today? What? You off school today? Half term. Oh last day last day Yeah, yeah. What did he do to his head? Why?looked really good. Where's the rest of them? Out back behind the wall somewhere. We get off, when do we get off school? We get off on Wednesday so we do. It's Thursday. Thursday, Oh well Shut up. Thursday. or did you, did you wait the bus and it went ? Did you have a good day off school then? Yes he did He just stayed around here and slagged me off, no? Oh well it was quite easy to do. Oh See next year, about this time next year, Yeah. around Easter time erm would yous be able to take some person just to come and sit in your shop for a week out of our school? Who? you see and they're asking for people who could ref who could, you know, give references to cos like put all these, all, down on these different things that you want like you know, say you want but then a lot of people just put down small business and management, something like that. You'll end up with some real wanker like. Ah no then, no. I don't mind if it's yous guys. Oh it wouldn't be me cos I'm, I'm doing it this year and I only thought of it too late Yeah. and I'd already put my other form in like to er I, and I was raging cos like I could've got and sat in here for a fucking week Well you still can if you want like . No I have to go and, have to go to this No some other people were saying about that, you know, ah that they, you know that they were gonna put in for it but they wouldn't let them cos it was shop, you know, blah blah blah. But I mean yes certainly if it was y if it was you coming down but I don't want It won't be me. plonker that I don't know. It wouldn't be me. No, no, that's alright You've not talked to me all day and then it's that sort of thing. Well I could probably get somebody who would be into comics like and then that would maybe start you talking and then like, but he could still be an old wanker sure As long as What's this? Who's this? I don't know who it is. Someone called Raoul You mean Raoul as in Raoul? Friend of Johnny's? Yeah. No, don't think so. Is Raoul English or something? Er no I just think his dad is and they've just picked it up from their dad, you know. It's not the Rhythm guitarist the bass player oh my goodness . Oh they've got a drummer as well a vocalist as well. Oh They must have a a lead guitarist or somebody who fancies themselves as a lead Yes and a drummer. look at But I don't know who it was, erm just some guy come in and said to us do you mind sticking that up for us, no not at all. Sure thing. You're not gonna ? play in Johnny's group? No, well like I haven't learnt it, I can't play I can play up to a certain bit in the start and then I can play the rest of it like, it's just one I can't get it's just real annoying, I have the at the right pitch and I just No I can get the but I mean I can't go , I can go like and go and that's it. I need to go Yeah. Why? Just asking. One of the just those questions you ask people like. What do you eat for breakfast Pat? Like it's one of those questions you ask people. What year were you born? That's another question. No I had Sugar Puffs right? Do you eat Sugar Puffs? Yeah. I used to eat those all the time, my mum won't buy them any more. I remember Gary, Gary it was one of the first it was when he Sugar Puffs? started working and he got one of his first pay packets he went out and bought a box of Sugar Puffs one of the big five hundred gramme ones. Why? I don't know. Cos he loved them like? Aye well I dunno but anyway I'd love to I hate I'd love to know why they call them Sugar Puffs. five hundred in a packet right Gee Pat and he had about four bowlfuls and he was oh tucking into his fifth when he went blurgh and he never fucking ate them again I know but I'd love to know why they call them Sugar Puffs Cos they're puffed up. cos they're all honey, I know but they're honey. Yeah but Honey monster. Bollocks there's honey on it, don't talk shit it's pure sugar Pure fattening Sixty nine. sixty one. Sixty one? Sixty nine. What are we talking about? Oh yes sixty two yes. Sixty two, no more than sixty. Sixty two You must be really dedicated in this shop. ninety two even Yeah! Yeah! How embarrassing You're the same a you're just, you're younger than That's what I said Paul the first time the first time you told me your age I went That's what I said, you know that? I went no you're not, I thought you were taking the piss out of me when you said it. No I'm not Yes you do, you look you look younger. Oh you're so youthful Paul. Oh I know He looks like Ronnie, Here are the other two songs I can't play or I haven't heard. and The Prince. They're covers like. Oh What? Oh tonight? Aye. I'm going driving tonight. Why? Killer. Or any shop you, any comic Oh it's brilliant! I thought you were ? Ah well, in tomorrow like but I'm just going in till twenty past nine and then sign my name off and going home. And I wouldn't even go in because I don't think my dad's making me go in except she kept me,and all behind because we didn't do our homework and she said right see me tomorrow, Why? There's no difference is there? It's grammar school, why? Bye guys. Cheerio. See you. Bye. Cheers. Yo. See you. See you. Bye. Bye now Bye Bye now. Oh by the way, I don't think she'll ever go out with you if she's any taste at all. How long have they been in here for Paul? Oh Jesus Oh Christ. Contact grab! Grab! If you can play it,contact grab take the number down. Guns and Roses? Where? Oh I didn't see that, Joint lead guitar! Is that the one where they go in the one with What did yous get him one for? Da er Father's Day present or something? Aye. Yep. And I was upstairs see so I sat and I watched them. Hundred and two minutes each tape and I sat and watched them yesterday. Three of them. Red Dwarf. Got all the Red Dwarf tapes. Oh whenever Blake Seven's out too How much was it? I was standing there and I was going I had the two pound in my pocket like but there's no way I was giving her two pound so Bitch bastard. Yeah, seen that and then for there's this thing treating people who'd ruined this guy's marriage Did you tape it? Yeah. the apocalypse and all the people atheists and one where ah the Christians, Christians over there please well I'm sorry to tell you but the jews were right Er do you remember the one where ? No, he'd gone up to the traffic lights and this cyclist sort of like cycled up, jumped off his bike and wheeled it round the corner so he Yeah, he jumps out I like the one car park Yeah he got trapped in a car park and he couldn't get out for ages and ages and then as he got out he crashed into another car. Ah that's, that's it there. Well did you see the one where he's getting changed What's that? he was getting changed in the car and he put a brick on the pedal and all Yes, yes he was going to work and he put the brick on the pedal while he's jumped in the back pulling on his trousers and st st steering with And cleaning his teeth steering with his foot. He gets into the back seat and he's got his feet over the fr the front seat steering with his foot Ah that's the same one he's making a lunch or something in, in the park Yeah. The bit where he's on the beach he's just down to the beach Yeah. and there's this guy sitting sitting beside him, you know sunbathing and stuff, and er he doesn't know what to do Oh the teacher told us this one. he sticks, he sticks the, the Trunks. the trunks on top of his trousers, unbuttons himself and pulls them down, and he gets, he's er really, really awkward the way he does it and all the rest of it and gets, he finally gets his trousers off, pulls up his er trunks and your man gets up, pulls off his towel, gets out his white stick and Oh he, he went swimming one time and that was pretty good I can't remember what that bit was, I think he just stood on top Yes he crawled, crawled to the edge of the Oh that's right and then this wee kid got up and jumped off didn't he? Do you know that bit where he was ha looking over the diving board and stuff? That was Jonathan to a T. We went swimming with Jonathan the other night and he got up on the top board and sort of and he was sort of like hanging on to the bar like this looking over Oh god, that's like. and he couldn't do it and the worse thing was everybody in the pool had gone go on What, what happened was Robert, Rob and me shouted, Robert and me were there and who was it, Helen was there I think as well, his ex girlfriend we were going go on Jon, go on jump and everybody in the pool started it go on Jonathan and he couldn't do it, he was so totally embarrassed and all the rest of it, he had to get down and everybody was boo boo, chicken, chicken Oh he felt so wet. I felt so sorry for him. Can you do it? Mm? No Fuck, no way. I can't fucking I went off the second board and I had to get out cos I felt sick. And like I'm not afraid of the water like. I used to dive off the first board Yes. and then I hurt my back I di I dive off the first board but I couldn't even jump or drop off the second board. there was one time I dove in and I hurt my back, I sort of like keeled over, kicked well Oh I know what you mean you went in like that and your back, your, your legs went like that there? Yeah. Ooh! But I've jumped off the second one, I haven't dived off the second one. No way. I got up, I remember like I'd just I'd just learnt to dive off the first one like I was running down like, yes! And I got up with the intention of diving off the second one and I went no! Jumped off it. Pete Petey right? I'm not joking, his leg his legs were about that wide right? He wore those new shorts Yeah. right? So he's walking about, the shorts are this wide the rest of it's like this here he runs into the water and he's into the water like Him and Bobby used to God love him. dive off Petey and Bobbie used to dive off the top board like Aye. head first. Yes. He's a total wanker . Total wanker I mean there's Jody and all those like and they're a real dipstick, they have balls but that wee kid is just so unbelievably stupid like, he was just like Who? Petey I know. You just flip on your back like and you get these jocks that get up there, big and they think they are so cool and then Big fat massive hairy chest, hairy chest, tiny swimming trunks Yeah. that is my seat by the way, erm hairy chest, bit of a sun tan, they've bee they were away last summer hanging over the oh like totally over, that's why he doesn't need to wear t too many swimming trunks cos you can't see anything anyway runs along splash, doesn't even make it, make it round, he just and goes like this and then, and then lands in the water like that. Well this guy's jumped off the second board and done a belly flop Ooh fuck! Ooh and he he got up and he was totally, totally red. It was totally red oh ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, and everybody in the whole pool heard it just go everybody was going ooh! Oh fuck! It was totally wild That pool that pool would be really good if it wasn't for the water. Why what's wrong with the water? It's shitty. Ah it's fucking chlorinated to fuck. Is it? there'll be dickheads and I know it's right but that's a laugh I think. You just you just watch them and all and you just I thought they were in every pool like, you can m even do it yourself without thinking about it if you want some people I don't start thinking about it cos I fart under the water Well I'd, I,buy your poster I I'm going down south next week and I intend Oh Paul we don't wanna hear your problems, buy the poster. Credit? You'll be off work, I'll be off work when you get your test. Aye of course if I get the test . Don't, don't be going fuck mad and taking Ah I've no intention of going fuck mad. You know what happened on Sunday? cos there is so many people get their licence, bang they're out the door, in the car Bang bash it five minutes down the road, bang bang on Sunday, Sunday morning I was up Was it that guy that crashed before? Yeah. It wasn't his fault this time, I mean, I'm serious, it was, it was not his fault I can't believe this . Ah yeah Alright. He's staying at my house. He's staying at my house. Staying after at my house. You can't stay? Can I not? No. I'm away till Richard's coming down for me. my daddy goes erm where will you be so I can in touch with you by phone laughing cos they were shouting at me and then he said to me and then I told him it wasn't and he goes so why do you go Kill that. What? Ah don't! What did that wee fly ever do to you? Erm how much were your boots? What? Your boots. Forty two. What? Why? Cos they're lovely and I have a pair. You can get better ones like from Have you heard from home? Eh? No. So she wouldn't have died then? In reality No she didn't die. Oh aye but th they were in Vietnam right, and er Was she er was she er good was she? No. it doesn't matter . Hey she was right, and she was in the bushes in Vietnam and she took hold of these prisoners right I didn't know women were allowed to go. and er just at the very end all you could see was her and your man, the hologram and he'd just been killed about five minutes earlier. So he could have saved himself but he didn't want to. The hologram? Aye. And did he not save himself then? No. Did he die? But then how can go on. Cos he's still he's still a hologram. Hologram. So that's how he died then? Aye. Well it's funny Remember he tried to stab his wife I cried my eyes out at that! at the very start of last night there was this guy water skiing big massive fat woman right, and she was just walking about this conference, you know where she's not supposed to be, and all these shoulders stab her right? And then Shoulders? Soldiers, right, stab her and they're all dying and then you see the head like it's just all dressed up in these things and it's Arnie underneath it and he takes the head off and it closes up again and he goes chew this or something blows up and then Arnie gets No there's a scene in Terminator, he's like wood and metal, in this new Terminator Yeah it is absolutely brilliant the way they do it. What was that what was that Well you'd run a mile Oh aye. That one er under the water The Little Mermaid no. it is fucking brilliant,in a monkey suit. Oh a cartoon? Aye. Aye Oh yes , yes! Cape Man or something, oh what did you call it? I, I was watching, I was watching Did you ever see ? I fucking love that Do you? the cu the music is totally shit but I love We were talking about it one day walking down the road walked up to this woman, went I fucking hate Crap. No it's good , do you watch that? On I T V. Oh is it a big long serial thing? No. No. Oh that's a load of shit. Don't you like it ? fucking English. I know George if you've got any food then we'll, we'll put it on or whatever is happening then, then then by the time I get something to eat Give me a lift teacher, oh Jesus Christ. Hi! You can't. I saw him driving the other day, tell you that? Yes. You told me he couldn't drive cos he was traffic lights. Did you tell me that? It was more like, he says He already said he could see red and green. How the fuck does he know we can see red and green? Exactly. What's red to you and what's red to me is a different thing. Oh look there's Keg Where? Over there, at the , you can't see her she is behind that pillar and she's wearing a peach jumper and oh Jesus Christ! and turn round I swear to God. I'll give you matches whatever if you give me a light I'll give you a sweetie. matches The er that's one of your bro or er how many of your brothers and sisters will be at home now? Aye. That's alright, but I thought, I was sort of thinking if we're all going round your house, we could bring it round to your house. Well you can bring it round to my house Sound. Will that be Hi. Working hard? Yes. Ah ah ah! Don't get cross now. This is your father speaking now so don't get cross. What? Right, one two Who the hell's that? That's Kink, that singing is Kink. I never list I've never listened to the tape Who's that? Totally Kink. Jon you dirty git What? You got mud all over the bed, come and look at it What? See all this mud, it came off your shoe. Don't put your feet on your bed again. I didn't. Where did all this shit come from then? Do you think I do shits in my sleep that size. spontaneous, it's just the same as any. It's just tape it and then some wanker sits and tries to work it out. That's his job,sits and works out for a living. Burt Reynolds was on Donahue last night. And then I watched Prisoner Cell Block H is it a whole series of them? I've only ever seen one before right, I watched it last night and it's the same fucking one . I was totally pissed off. Is it, is it all the same? I saw one of those and it was about some punk in New York and it was McCloud? Oh totally fucking What? McCloud, you ever seen that? I think I have, I've probably seen them all like. Hi. Hello. What you doing man? Tidying the shop, oh look you've put all things up. Wow! So how's you? Ah alright. Off school thank fuck. I'm off for cos I have got no work experience cos and she couldn't get me work experience in June and now everybody else is in work experience I get the week off. So that's pretty hot, So where's Rick got to? Oh he's gone to the library to see I'll have to get Great stuff. So what's the trick to the solo on there? I don't know like, some of it's just real hard, most of it's just easy anyway it goes in the big diddly diddly diddly bit at the end, just stuff's no problem but er once it starts and get the medium stuff done as well And there's the bit so that when he gets up three of my frets on the bottom string that you can't bend up, I don't know what's wrong. And you hit it and it bends up and it just dies and I've been sitting like, I mean I, I definitely don't think that it is anything with the way I hold it in like cos I've been sitting going and I just, just hit it and it goes ee, it just dies so you can't bend, that's on too. Och it might be I dunno it might be with you bending it that there's a bump on that string. Yeah on the, that's a thought, I think Yeah. But th it's something wrong with It looks real good with That's what I thought, I thought you know fuck looks like a bloody comic shop for a change. That's why I stuck all the posters here think the back issues loosening up a bit it was getting pretty tight. Nine hundred series. Well okay Anyway I thought they'd ring here but couple of people, some, two women I thought it was Belfast Station New window display and everything. The big guns and the big guns I found a use for the fucking thing. That looks good actually I thought you'd be practising like mad on your day off. No. I was playing last night Gotta learn this album I used to have ages and ages ago fucking . I was really annoyed last night, I was getting really There was all this like down tuning and up tuning like all over the place That looks like Bart Simpson's dad Mm yeah. got the hair Probably What is it? Going to tonight. Are you? I thought you'd given that up. No, back on again. just started, aye. ah swimming on Monday nights and I'm doing training another three times a week I'd love to do th I'm really unfit, I mean like totally unfit. Sitting here I've got a pot belly and no fucking muscles That's what Robert wants then, to do a bit of training and start like getting I'm not like overly fat or anything, I'm the right weight for what I'm, for my height like but I've just got a pot belly They've got a spare room in my mum's flat so I just took it over and put a weights bench in and, what else, a rowing machine and I started to do some weights I never knew you had all those. Have you ? I've had those for years. Expensive! sort of like what happened is that Robert was sort of like, the three of us sort of chipped in and bought it between us and stuff like that you know, so that all three of us would get the benefit of it Yeah but er I was the only one that ever used it and I used it about once or twice and then, like like, I used it for about Hi there. six months Steve. About eight o'clock he says be down, be in for eight o'clock. Right. after Easter cos I got people have most go in work experience and I didn't get a place after Easter like. You dog! revision but it's fucking Aye he's a bastard so he is What are you doing? physics A C theory A bitch. the worst like Yeah A C theory sucks some of the questions You haven't done any mag magnetic stuff ha have you? Or er We've got, you know the All the worst stuff comes at the start of next year electro-magnetic induction, electron physics,stuff, all the shitty stuff I think course but Oh aye eighty five points. We've done er eighty, eighty something points I think, we've done the fucking I know but er that's what I mean, we get all the, a lot of them, about four of them topics worth, we're being given the equivalent of one of the topics you may be do next year you know. You know you can get and circular motion and stuff all and AC, you know, it's that big. Next year, year's topic will be nuclear, nuclear physics, it's fucking massive,it's about a hundred topics Seriously next year boy you're gonna get one major awakening, you think this year's bad for physics, wait to you start next year. I, I, I understand all the work like and I'm sitting in class and I'm doing fine fuck all and then I come in and get a test like and he cracks up Fucking Who is? Me. He come in laughing one day, look at this Paul, look at this and he shows me this big long letter that this teacher had wrote on. Erm you see we were given this test, right, it was on gravity or something Hiya Hello and freaked out, right, er we did the test on Friday, right and he wasn't in on the Monday Yeah yeah. we were going yo he's not in , came in the Tuesday the reason I was off yesterday was cos I was so fucked off with your test , but he didn't say fucked off Yeah. Erm erm and then he was going spare and he says these are the worst I've ever received in all the years I've been teaching, right? And he went the next ones had better be better, right,the next ones were worse totally disastrous. Well I'm, aye he just hit the roof, I got fucking twenty five or something. All of my test marks like Paul eighty, seventy two er fifty six, forty three thirty three, thirty three, twenty five as well eh? No chance. I would rather even kill myself, and I do mean kill myself than do You're wearing your T-shirt? No I haven't seen this for a while yet had this one on for a few days. Yeah we were out last night. Yeah. at least twenty people. Oh right you got chips, I thought you got I thought you got gravy and a burger All donations will be accepted. Fuck Where? No Never. take your ticket back sensible people would like. No I'm not sensible, I'm even I'm even less sensible than people who didn't take a ticket back. Hasn't he lost it ? Yeah. I lost Where you there? Him and Gary, over the fence. Was it you went over the fence with Gary? I remember seeing you inside. Well like I, I was with Gary, Gary No I went off in the car with They climbed over the fence. Posers. No he, he lost the ticket. Oh I lost the ticket Gary definitely got the like. Remember he walked out the lost. What? Remember he waltzed out in the ? Everybody was laughing. Who said I had a chip? I got a pasty I had a pasty so I did. Well I just, I just get my pay and then I go and fucking blow it all. Aye sure they are nice now fuck off. It's alright Steve, we'll just start now, just turn it down and then Oh right . This is quite a scandal. Aye, scandalous Put them back down and There's no way they would fit my record player. You've already got it. I haven't got it. You bought that the other day. You bought that and But I didn't buy it. That's right, I did buy it but I forgot to collect it, that was what Think so? Well it's a ninety nine P pack. Aye. singles. . How are you? Fine, thank you. I've got a Find your headache, but Surviving? I feel a lot better. Oh well. I went for a walk out this morning but I just couldn't stand it. No. it's no good I'm gonna have to go out for a breath of fresh air. I'm better going do you? But I've got to be honest with you you know. No So he says I'm going out I said oh I feel I'm going out for half an hour that's all. Yeah I can't see the pleasure you know. So you seem a lot better Got a lot of washing to do lie down Yeah he'd like that. Yeah, he'd like that. I know but I thought So I've bit busy with other things anyway. I thought what I'd do was I'd have a bath, I thought I'd put all the back in the fridge Yeah. and I've gotta put that erm on tonight as well. Yeah. So that might be as well. Yeah. See I don't feel as I did last night but it's still there, you know I just take some more tablets like, you know. Yeah. But er Nearly getting rid of it but I've really cracked it and it's bloody awful! It does No oh aye, it does. Really cold, really, it's horrible! We didn't do him any good at all. Telling me he got six points for a driving convic for er speeding conviction Halfords I should think Oh right! When he got erm Oh Smell it. See if it smells alright Got any Oh We have to that's why Aye Mm Too much I got your er table things. They do them in packs of fifty but in Oh a split pack I got sixty. That should be enough, shouldn't it? Oh Or did I get seventy? I think I got seventy just to be sure. I thought sixty Oh alright. That's alright. was enough so I got seventy Oh right. cos there's only fifty Yeah. So I got seventy. As I said, they do, they must do them themselves and sell Oh right. They've got a well in that shop. Oh have they? Yeah. It's all bricked up. What else you've been doing? Oh I've done a bit of drawing. you wanna get your hair cut while you're there Yeah. Yeah, I ought to go and get changed Yeah, well don't stand about Yeah, that's alight. I'll get Oh yes. changed. I'll just leave them ticking over then? Yeah. I won't be long. Yeah, okay. Just go and get myself changed. Yeah, I mean you see works' vans all over the place regular. Yeah. Naughty boys! I never thought about that. ha oh. Not if they keep his licence. No. Speeding. Dangerous driving. Dangerous driving cos he made the old woman give over and overtook somewhere totally stupid and probably find he had no brake. He was slowing down anyway! What are we gonna do? It's spitting and spotting innit? Yeah. Fancy having another cup of tea? Yeah. That's if you look at it, like, you only get two chances at speeding now. Mm. Which is harder than it used to be. Must've been four then wasn't it? Yeah. Three points Like you get four gos. Yeah, that'd be right. Get one more go than you used to now you get one left. Tightened up on that, haven't they? Mm. Don't half your er insurance now, don't it? You get Yep. a speeding doesn't, never did anyway, bother them. No. Not unless you had a dangerous driving or something with it. But er losing your licence always has bothered them, hadn't it? Mm. That's always cost you. is there? A very old Granada Mm. way back Aye. Ah, yes it is Yeah. Yeah. Probably buy Hundred quid. Hundred quid Yeah. Aye. And he had a dangerous driving or a speeding I think it is Mm. horrendous insurance bill He says I can't afford scrap. Cost him more. Cost him about six or seven hundred quid a year. Cheaper to buy a blimming er cheaper to insure a car wouldn't it? Mm. Oh no matter what he gets, it's always over five hundred quid cos he's he's Yeah. lost his licence in the past and you know, when he was a kid like Mm. and all that Takes a long while before they forget about that, doesn't it? Yeah. Making himself an extra five hundred pound a year for er having been a naughty boy when he was a teenager. Mm. That's what it's about now, innit? Yeah. It's all the He is actually quite sane now though. Yeah, well it's like this fellow that got done for speeding. When did he get done? Er Thur no Wednesday. sat there watching them catch him up he didn't see them before they got him stopped like. Saw them catch him up coming along with all their blue lights thinking . They'd been in er garage at bottom. Mm. Aye. We'd had a little car before he got there. He said are you speaking to the no, no,around town he says, I don't mind doing a bit more, you know, out and about not much about they just sat in the traffic, you know. Mm but erm so had it been a Foxhalls, something about a minute no, he said only for about a mile, that was it. I said oh, about forty seconds and he sort of looked. I says well, at sixty you do a mile in a minute. So I said if it's only for a mile it's going to be well less than a minute at eighty, presuming you were doing more than thereabouts and er that was it. But the car, he'd er he says oh that was funny he says, I blew past him, popped into fourth, I blew past him real easy going up the . Come out at Foxhalls at forty, I think he did. He can come through Foxhall like and he, he'd had to speed up he says and then he says he didn't carry on, like. He hadn't been doing and er reckon he and er think I'm and that was it so right Been driving since he was nineteen two or three months ago, I think it was. I remember him saying once before I don't, I don't know what and er he says it's only a fortnight ago since you know . You get done for, pulled up for speeding or parking or something and you can pay your own fine . So I went home, anybody gonna pay me fine? He says I am gonna cop it off me mother cop it of his mother. You're always going too fast! I told you before! He says me dad al me dad was always speeding he, he used to go mad! Mm. slow down. Yeah obviously watching wasn't, wasn't watching his mirror very hard. He hadn't seen copper trying to get him caught up, I wonder how much he was using mirror when he was overtaking people? Mm, yeah. Whether he was just watching what was coming from the front. Mm saw him coming have to get it cos Neil's mum was cross about it. Oh well he was only just finding out what the rules were. There was a gang of us chatting with him. I come up with six points. That made his day. He says have I got a fixed penalty? I says only got a pink form if you've got a fixed penalty. Know somebody who got one, like. No, only a bloke I've never seen one had one. Yeah, that'd be Richard. Mm only he's got to take his licence and insurance in. As to what happens now he says I've to go to Magistrate's Court so it's just beginning to sink in that it's gonna cost him some brass and it's going to be serious. One of them there was of the opinion who could quite easily lose his licence for it. Like he got done What he do? Run a Chief Constable over? No! No, he got done for speeding. He was over the, over the limit and had a small quantity of drugs with it. Don't think he'd actually taken them but he had as a Mm. possession. They did him about eight hundred pounds in motoring offences Aye. Phew! Speeding while slightly over the limit it was. Him having speed having, having speed . Oh god! Mm Where's today? Dunno. He started to come over, didn't he? Yeah. they don't come any worse get a cup of tea in between, weren't we? Mm. I don't think it would've bothered us when it was spitting and spotting if we'd actually been out there, would it, it's just setting off in it. Aye, yeah. Blue sky! I can see a bit of blue up there. today? No if you were off to do something and being mucked around for the day, innit? Mm Took my a long while ago. Not surprised to see them now. Only ran out a month ago! Just as well so late I've been waiting for to come. I got some here come in this morning she says, they ran out beginning of September last year. We hadn't thought about it. I thought I was late. Mine have been in, oh, I don't know! A good month! Innit? A slightly bigger like a fish box Or what? Lobster pots making a smell. yeah, don't, I know name when it come up like that. Anyway we can sort the problem because you'll take them back a won't you?put them outside your house, creating a smell they were playing up. Pretty fair stack of them I should think, wasn't there? Mhm. Don't know if the son's got out yet. Been doing time. Aye. I don't know They didn't catch him He had an argument with a kid, two or three years ago Aye. and er they set off in hot pursuit. It was in back of a pick-up. Driving through with a shotgun shooting the guy Still in the back of a pick-up shooting over the roof, like? Yeah. Oh! They didn't get him for that one? Blimming good job! No, they just got him for beating somebody. Bloody good job. You'd think after that one they'd have thrown the keys away for that. Mm. The kid hadn't done much Get an extra two years for missing. the kid hadn't done much, I mean it was nowt serious . You know I had a moving traffic accident Yeah wasn't trucking there, you know or owt like that. No sense of humour. Got brought a pushbike wheel the other day. Can you get the cogs off that? Why? Well they go a lot better on that bike of mine. I don't think so. Oh pity. So what you've done to bend the wheel? I haven't. The gaffer knocked somebody off their pushbike, had to buy him a new wheel and some compensation Scrounge the wheel! How do you get them off? He says you go to a pushbike shop and get special tools. Ring spanner things with the Mm. keys on the outside pumps and things on it to I wouldn't bother. A new set of back cogs for bike's only about seven quid. A brand new set and they come with the ra with the, erm free wheel and everything all in like, just screw them on. Go to a pushbike shop they whip them off and whip them on for you you buy, you know, if you go out and buy one then just take wheel with you they'll stick them straight on. Mm that fellow don't go to the police. Lucky to get away with having to buy him a wheel compensation Unusual innit. It's very expensive that's why it's unusual. Sixty nine ninety nine. is that all right? It is done isn't It? why have you got that on your head. What's it doing take it off. Oh yeah. take it off Mm. take it off I don't like it, take it off What? What's wrong with you? What? What? He's bloody mad, he's potty, off his rocker. Where did you get it? Get what? The thing. Well why Well why do you need it, why do you need a towel? Why do you need a towel. Why er why game. Mum and Dad's got it. Come on Mum. Go get in the blooming bath. Why? I'll rewi rewind that actually heard what you say, you must be very naughty and nasty thing to be to your son. I can't have a sweet then. Well you're not give me a sweet an all. Should give me a sweet you know. You should. You're gonna turn it off because I wanna tear you off a strip about something. Me? Yeah. Why? What are we talking about? Mum what's Hamlet about? Pardon? What's Hamlet about? Hamlet? Yes. I don't know much about Shakespeare, the only play I've seen is Romeo and Juliet and A Midsummer Night's Dream. to er see Rome and Juliet. Mm. And I think I need to make it up. When is I dunno. Well you better find out then. What do ya mean I alw I'm only saying it cos I got Well no if you can go. You give me the money for it? If it's within reason as I assume it will be. Five Pounds. That's okay. W would it make much difference for you lending me the money. Not a lot. Well there's a quite a bit of difference between five and fifty isn't there and the one thing is for your educational needs and the other I'm so convinced about. Well Yeah. I thought a computer No, but I know that you're dying to have a computer, and if money was no object, then we probably wouldn't hesitate in lending it to you, but really and truly at this moment things are tight and we can't afford to commit ourselves with things unless it's absolutely necessary. Well And that's it, I mean I've made it as plain as I can. That is it and I hate it when you keep on and on nagging. I won't go and see Romeo and Juliet. Well don't go, it's not my fault if you don't pass your exams. All right. Did you watch that animated version that you recorded. Yeah. Does it give you the gist of the story? It,half an hour long. Well I think it's longer than half an hour. They probably should an hour at the most. Given you er erm The film is about hour and five minutes. You can probably have a video of it as long of another version. Well it's does help to see different versions because you see that different people interpret the Why do you Mm? Well it depends on the people who are producing or directing or whatever, so it's all got different ways of doing it. When I was studying I went to Open Air Theatre and I saw a version there on Christopher er what's his name that chubby fellow with the glasses Christopher Biggins that's it. He was playing Puck and when I went to see the Company doing it well they had a completely different way of doing it, they wo they did it really like er a dec you know the the mechanical play, I don't know if you know A Midsummer Night's Dream. They did it in a completely slapstick farce way you know th the men who were dressed up women they balloons and had rosy red cheeks and wigs and things, it was quite different. How they Well that's it, when Shakespeare wrote a play and the text has survived and , but the way of of joshing the people on the way they do it is different every generation and even most of the people in the same generation would would have a different way of doing it. Okay. There's a comedienne erm she apparently was born in Wales. Mhm. Two Ton Tessie O'Shea that's her. Two Ton Tessie? She yeah, that's her her nickname, cos she was quite big and she played the nurse in Romeo and Juliet in the season on Stratford on Avon and she did it using a Welsh accent because she thought Shakespeare, having coming from quite near the Welsh Border Country might well have had might well have had a Welsh nurse. So it didn't matter that Romeo and Juliet is set in Italy. Mm. She did it as she would have thought Shakespeare would have known people and things, you know, she did it like that. Mm. And I remember Amanda seeing a video of Romeo and Juliet And what struck me was that the costumes were all sort of like you see portraits of Elizabethan dress. Now I don't what Italy and those Middle Ages would have been like, that the sort of clothes that were worn. Mhm. But the clothing in that film struck me very much as being like Elizabethan dress. Yeah, I mean now plays of Shakespeare and they're wearing modern dress like those worn at Richard the Third or something and they're wearing well either First or Second World War uniforms. Yes. It was very different then. Yeah, well it's just different directors have different things they want to emphasise in a play and if they want to bring something home or they think that using a certain well like say the way the people are dressed and everything will will have more of an impact, you know will One thing I was wondering about you know they they talk about erm in Shakespeare's works is the language the words he uses, the the sort of poetry of it and the symbolism that's used. Erm do they talk about that at all in your English Literature Yes. Do they show you how you can learn about this, there's a book you know the book I bought you it's got notes in it. Does that help with it? I suppose Pardon? Well you should do. And what about I bought some revision books and things study aids or something for Amanda for her English literature Well I bought them for Amanda and she was doing Romeo and Juliet. So if you look in those you may find there's some help there. Yeah. Come in, good morning. Hello, well what's your mum been doing to you this morning ? . Well she's just after the Freeze her, freeze her tongue. having the flu, near a fortnight ago now, she's on these pills and she's as bad as ever, and not sleeping again. She's finished them now, she She's finished those . Let's have a look and see what you've one to your your poor old inside. Dearie me. Driving your mother up the wall? Are you? Has your mum been bad to you? No? Have a wee look at your nose first. better. Throat now. stick your tongue right the way out now . Yes. Have you got any swollen glands in your neck? Yes, they're up. Okay? Mm It's It's taking awful long Doctor,. Oh well it's, she's got sinus after this flu. It's er just what's been happening to a lot of folk, sinus trouble. Do you like nice medicine or do you prefer those? Don't know. You're not bothered ? She'll say that and then give you the horrible stuff. in a bottle. Er I can put it in, in a bottle or I can give you tablets. In tablets. You prefer tablets alright then. Now this is this quite a common thing after the flu to get a problem. Most times it's both but it's mainly the the left hand side with Jenny. The skin from here's swollen right Mhm. across and it's touching that hole in the middle and she's getting all blocked up and the stuff's running all the way down the back of your throat, that right? And you're coughing all night, keeping everybody awake? Aye, she doesn't bother but us in the next room, ah,bother us . Oh right, right, just so it's just mum and dad we're . Oh I need some money. I want to believe it. Now one of these in the morning and one at tea time. Twice a day, for the next week. One, two, three, four. Tell your mum she could be kinder to you, she's got to for even though she's already. Right oh, okay, bye Mrs , Right cheerio now. up and call me now A little music as well we have on the show we have a video from Elvis to give away in the second half of the programme and star guest this afternoon is Mary Whitehouse. Oh ho ho Steeley Dan and erm reeling reeling out the thingummybobs. Hello that's a nice way to start it isn't it? Good morning good afternoon whatever you like to call O never mind you know the number. Now er we're going to start this morning talking about animals. More specifically why we're so cruel to them. Britain must be an animal erm a country of animal abusers looking at the statistics. Why do we hate animals so much? If you have a view on that O nine O four six four one six four one and I'd like to hear from you all you have to do is pick up the phone and give me a f a call now sorry. Did Karen say to somebody on that thing did I hear her say, What are you on? She looked at me and said that when I walked in this morning. What are you on? I didn't like to tell her is was Phylisan but there we are. Anyway erm we've been hearing on this programme recently of course that er people are against hunting against fishing er they say it's cruel. But they are willing quite willing apparently to give and receive pets as presents and millions of them end up getting abused neglected and destroyed. Every year we see that doleful little puppy on the television screen and every year thousands of people give pets for Christmas. The R S P C A have to pick up the pieces and they've launched a campaign to try and stop it and joining me now is Alan. Is this Alan Oritt, Alan? Correct yeah. OK you're the Superintendent for the north east of England that covers this area too. I'm the Chief Superintendent that covers the the north east of England yes. OK. So you're the big boss are you? One of them. One of them. Have you er polished your brass today got it all ready to talk to me I hope you have. Now sorry Alan I've got to turn you up a bit you don't mind do you? No not at all. It won't hurt there we are that's nice OK. Now Alan, first of all er have we learned anything do you think over the years or do we seem to be getting worse? Sadly the things seem to be getting worse. Er we the Society try our very best to get over the message to people just before Christmas. Please don't give a pet for Christmas. But unfortunately er it seems to fall on many deaf ears and we the Society as other many charities who deal with animals are left to pick up the pieces. Why is it it seems to me also, and I may be totally wrong here, but it seems people who are least likely to look after themselves are the ones who want to have animals? I mean you see them walking around particularly people who go for the big dogs, you see them walking around with a big thick necks, the tattoos, the er the boots and the jeans rolled up. Well I think that's a little bit to do with a bit of macho image. Erm and er perhaps it's the owners wanting to look rather big. Unfortunately they don't think before they get the pet that you've got to look after it. It takes But an an time it takes money. Another thing is of course it's all pets it isn't just dogs and cats. That's right yes. I mean people have er er budgie or er er er another sort of bird and they think it doesn't need any looking after. That's right. Er just before Christmas you see people think that buying a Christmas present er that's easy. Once you've er got over the newness of it the the the thing can be put in away in a drawer can be put back in it's box. But with an animal it's for life. Er you've got to look after it. You've got to devote a lot of time to the care and attention that it requires. I I heard the other day what I thought was one of the best advertisements not to have an animal for Christmas very emotive, er I think it was for the R S P C A, and I I'm told I don't think you've heard it but it b basically it's it's er the sound of a er well it's a human pretending to be a dog really and saying you know, Well this is nice my my er family have taken me to the vet, I didn't think I was ill but never mind. Oh here comes a nice man with er an injection. Ah perhaps they're going to give me some vitamins. Yes. And it goes on and on like this until the voice is erm, I can't feel anything any more. Yes it's it's it was one of the er advertisements or programmes that went out on radio er again this is why I've been trying to get over to people the sad things that have to happen to animals. Erm we hate putting animals to sleep. In fact it was the Society's policy now that we won't put animals to sleep unless there is an extreme er cause for that the sick, diseased. Erm and we're attempting to try to get over to people please please think before you get a pet. Why is it that in the north of England, particularly in this region of the north of England, we seem to be worse than anywhere else? I I don't think you are. Now I've spent seventeen years in Hartlepool and yes that er They hate monkeys in Hartlepool did you know that? Found a honkey they monkey I wasn't going to say anything the Kirkham Hotel. they hung it. Er yes and there's one hanging behind their door. Er the thing is that the people in the northeast yes er there is a lot more work done up there by the Society but you know since I've been down in Horsham I have found that the northeast is not alone. There are many other areas in the country where animals are seriously abused. The northeast isn't the only place. Mm. Ok thank you very much indeed er Chief Superintendent. And Pa Pat I don't think I don't hold out any hope at all that people will pay any attention they will go they'll see a little puppy somewhere they'll say, Oh that's lovely we'll buy that for Tommy er, and then Tommy will abuse it totally and er they'll say, Well the dog was a a waste of time it didn't work properly and er didn't know how to er how to look after itself. May I just say that the majority of people will care for their animals but it is those people who buy, we have s er cases where erm people will turn up on Christmas day and say to their elderly relative, We bought you a puppy. The elderly relative hadn't didn't want a puppy. Never ever wanted a puppy because it makes them a captive person Mm. they've got to look after something. And this is where the Society is called in er to look after that puppy. Or just after Christmas usually between Christmas and New Year. We're called to waste ground, behind pet shops, a any place to pick up boxes of unwanted puppies, kittens that have obviously been er planned for selling to people er before Christmas. Good Alan thank you very much indeed. You're very welcome. Let er let's hope it'll mm won't be like that er mm this er this year. Now he says deep intake of breath don't have a puppy for Christmas. Do as I do have turkey instead. I'm playing this one because I like it. It's a little a little fresh Cajun music from New Orleans from the and I can say that er that's why I'm playing it really. O nine O four six four one six four one any calls about dogs or er any other sort of animal you want to give us a ring call us now. which er er probably rude I dunno it's just . Er B B C radio York you are not in the South of France but as it is persistently snowing around the county at the moment I thought you know a little French flavour. Was it the Beaujolais Nouveau wasn't it this week was it? Everybody seems to be nodding around here I thought it was Thursday it was wasn't it? Could anybody bring us a bottle down here you know because that would be nice wouldn't it on a on a cool Saturday afternoon here as we sit overlooking the grand metropolis of York. It would be nice to have just a little swig of the erm of the new grape. Has anybody tasted it? I haven't tasted it anybody taste give me a call. I cos quite frankly I have never heard such an exciting R S P C A man as that last one so I don't expect to get much response to that. Er so let's talk about the, can't hear can he he's not up in this area? No he doesn't know does he? Er stuff it. Ah anyway so erm I don't think anybody's bothered about er fish and chips arrived have they? Everybody's in there. Thing about this programme it is so it is so crucial to everything that goes on at Radio York while it is happening, they eat in the other room that's how much er interest there is they eat in the other room. Tour buses around York. Should they be banned? Should we get rid of them? Is York a big enough city to have them? You know the open topped buses where they go round they hold up the traffic. I know the tourists are very important to York but for goodness sake it isn't a huge city can't they walk round? Why can't they walk round? I think if we got rid of all those open topped tour buses in York, traffic would be a lot easier. What do you think? Give me a call you know the number O nine O four six four one six four one. You can ring now. You can ring about anything you want actually. Anything you feel like you can ring I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm really you know. Shame of the Killer oh no I don't think we'll do that er look through the Sun see if there's anything interesting erm in there I've got nothing in the Ewbank . Boxer Chris Ewbank worth around eight million is moaning that he's got no money. What has he done with his money? What has got he didn't give me any. Oh he's bought a big house has he? OK. Usual sort of sex, drugs, rock and roll as you get in the papers on a Saturday as well. Or is he the best dress man too? Chris Ewbank is the best dressed man. That'll upset Jonathan Ross he always thought he was. Er O nine O four six four one six four one. Anybody who can hum by the way the er theme to the television programme Ivanhoe and I would be interested to hear from you as well. Now as the United Nations doesn't have enough on its plate dealing with the problems on earth and obviously they're er they're there at the forefront of everything that happens . Action is being demanded to track down possible visitors from outer space and this is serious. A small group demonstrators have staged a protest outside the U N Headquarters in New York calling for an end to what they say is a cover up over the existence of U F Os. One of the organizers, Michael Luckman, says President Clinton is scared to acknowledge that superior beings do exist. The United States er government is afraid as are other governments to admit er to their people that there is a higher form of life. Obviously if the U F Os touch down that would mean they would be charge and not Bill Clinton at the White House. Okay well er I I figure that there must be quite a number of er extraterrestrials around around North Yorkshire and I thought it would be quite nice actually if er if there are any extraterrestrials listening at the moment they could ring in and we could have a chat. So if erm if if you yeah yes E T E T phoned when what do you want? I'm not even speaking to you because of that flipping letter. I mean I just noticed it I read, sorry Karen walked into the studio totally uninvited through a red light. That's a particular no no I mean you know for goodness sake can't we av can't we actually ob observe studio discipline? What you doing? Just shutting that up a bit. That's my knob if I want it open I'll leave it open. Don't flatter yourself. There we are you see. Just smutty mind haven't you really. Er the individual responsible for this this is your letter from the er director of er the Officers of the Director General's broadcasting Principle Assistant Dalek to the Director General. Get Bert on the phone I want a word with him now. Come on you lot you know where he is get him on the phone I want to talk to him. The individual responsible for this unacceptable behaviour shall remain nameless protect his listening and viewing ratings suffice it to say that his name suggests that he is capable of making a big splash. Is this the sort of person that's running the B B C? I don't believe he wrote this. Erm Likes to spout a lot and is never happier than when he is chewing up all the small fry in the world . This is . The D G joins me in wishing you every success in your future career. You're destined for big things obviously. I wondered whether you were erm I wonder whether you were for the bullet or not? No it's you. Oh it's me I see. Is traffic ready? Yes. Are you sure? Honest. Oh good. We're not going to make a cockup like we did last week are we? We're going to do it nicely nicely Yes. sort of flow into it. Professionally. Professionally all right. Actually I've I I I'm I can't do it now but at the next the next traffic I'm going to liven it up a bit for you. Okay. So it's it's going to be nice but er you will enjoy it okay so if you hang on you're not very loud there actually you talk a bit louder cos Talk a bit louder like that? Is that better? Could you talk a bit butcher as well for goodness sake I mean it's a yes Butcher oh I'm sorry oh dear. It's an important it's an important bit this traffic because there's snow falling all over the county there are going to be people erm in all sorts of er er problems . It's stopped now. What? It's stopped now. It has it ? Was snowing yes. I wonder if anybody would like to ring in and talk to you? Well, I don't imagine they would for one moment I doubt it no. Anybody want to talk this fe where are you at the moment by the way I know Me? you're not here I mea are are you in London or where ? No I'm in Leeds. Are you? Yeah. Tell me they keep you in a garage locked away is that right. That's about the size of the place yeah. Okay we can't do this I don't like it you know talking to the on the programme we don't like it at all. memo could you not mention the producer quite so much nobody out there knows who he is. I'm going to actually tell everybody who everybody is later so there'll be no trouble. Right, now stand by because I'm going to give you a big build up Right. and I've got a and then oh this my paper here hold on. B B C Radio York oh no hang on sorry I got that wrong. I I start You do the jingle first. Do I put no I do a time check. All right then. Okay I go like this don't butt in Okay. It's twenty seven minutes past twelve, B B C Radio York the station that's always first for travel. We're looking at the roads er for North Yorkshire this Saturday afternoon. On the A one in the Bedale area there's still a mobile lane closure in operation on the north bound carriageway. That's between Bedale and Catterick at the moment and slight delays are possible there. Also on the A one in the Leeming area the inside lane of the south bound carriageway's closed at Holby Grange for emergency gas repair works and delays are likely as a result there. In Selby there's a demonstration taking place this afternoon it starts at half past one and will go via Barlby Road and Scott Road and some traffic delay delays are likely as a result. Also in York today traffic near to the Knavesmire could be slow due to an event taking place there. In the Ripon area weekend roadworks mean the Road will be closed as it passes under the A one bridge delays are likely as a result. At Stockton on Forest Stockton main bridge over the A sixty four is closed for resurfacing work through to six o'clock on Monday morning. And finally in the Thirsk area there are no further reports of snow on the high ground there but some moorland routes may still be a little slippery. Danny Savage A A Roadwatch. Oh very nice Danny very nice. This is were I pull this up and go . I'm not supposed to talk over the singing bit am I? No. Yeah. I'm sor Danny I am sorry. Okay next time, an hour's time . All right? Bye Yeah it'll be good. Okay. Bye bye. Bye bye. Danny Savage with the er the traffic. Now the the trains the twelve twenty eight Aberdeen isn't going to leave until twelve fifty four er let's have a look anything else er Liverpool twelve thirty eight Middlesborough Edge Hill er no leaves on the line but you know you don't you never know the er er er I don't understand that the thirteen eighteen what's that? What does Sar Scarborough I suppose that is? Gla go ge gar ge ga has the computer gone mad? Yeah I'm sorry but the computer's gone mad. Stay at home in front of the fire and listen to Radio York. Ha ha. Oh that was slick. Okay now er Garth Brookes my favourite country singer at the moment and er your chance to win this Elvis video okay you have to ring in we're giving this away first you have to ring in and tell me and tell me the next word no I can't do that I can't no I can't do it's too easy okay. All right tell me er complete the sentence of this of this particular hit song that Elvis er had and it's difficult all right. There were three words in the don't ring yet there were three words in the title I'll give you two you have got to give me the last one. It is difficult it is difficult I know all right? O nine O four six four one six four one this is it. Ready? The Hawaiian wedding Okay no y you can't have got . There are three wo don't answer them yet. Don't let the them ring for a bit. The Hawaiian wedding now there's a word there missing I wonder if I wonder if you can erm if you can guess that if you are the most entertaining winner you will get this Elvis video. Aha. Garth Brookes We Shall Be Free I love it I love it I love it. O K O nine six four one six four one very few calls out there at the moment I mean er. Noel is there hello Noel how are you? Hello I'm fine thank you. What are you on here for? Because er because I was invited on to speak about current educational issues Oh that's good I couldn't you see it's very difficult for me you know I have to look up there I can never distinguish one one one call from another. Right. Do you have a tit do you want me to your a title do you have er? I'm Press Officer for North Yorkshire National Union of Teachers. Yeah. Yo you're very lucky actually Noel that this is not erm a quiz show. Shall I tell you for why? Why? I'll tell you why cos the B B C there's a directive just gone out I've just been informed the B B C for quiz show hosts on the B B C to treat their guests with a little more civility. Can you believe it? How much more flipping civil can you get. Have you heard these quiz sho I mean they're all on radio four aren't they? All the quiz show yeah basically ? Well rad radio one as well. Mm Where do you live anyway? In Leeds. Oh good. Mm it's freezing outside isn't. It certainly is yes. What are we talk oh education we're talking about education right yep. Okay let me do the prog right er Noel that's a funny name Noel by the way isn't it? It's erm appropriate for the time of the year nearly . Mm It's like pulse but not. Oh oh er yes. Is that how you pronounce it? Erm it it is pronounce to Not the Noel y yeah okay. Anyway right so erm head teachers in the area have been complaining their schools are not tidy not cleaned sufficiently. Yes. Why? I mean why why are our children going to school in in pig sties? Well I think it's er down to the competitive tendering process where the County Council has had to put out the cleaning contracts for schools to tender. There were problems a few years ago when it first started with th the initial contract which was was won by the the County's own direct service organization and now it seems we're having a repeat of of those problems. Er with the new contracts that started in September erm basically it seems that some teachers are having to do bits of cleaning themselves to keep their their classroom up to up to scratch up to the standards they ought they ought to be. Erm we're hearing reports that parts of schools having to to be closed or th threatened to be closed because they're not sufficiently hygienic for pupils or teachers to work in. Oh how disgusting. And er That is isn't that disgusting? It certainly is yes . That is disgusting yes. So all these a lot of these firms are not up to the job why do why don't you sack them people are not up to the job why don't they get sacked? Well there are monitoring systems which are meant to be in place a and which may be er are not are not effective enough erm. I mean I've heard representatives for County Council th this week saying that er as far as they were concerned th the standards weren't sufficiently low yet for them t to take action. But basically th every time the contract comes up for renewal, what will happen for a company to attempt to win the contract it's got to cut the hours of its employees and its also got to try and c cut the costs erm by cutting pay and that's the way that's the way contracts are won in this situation and as long as that keeps happening then the situation's going to get steadily worse. What are we going I mean we we've heard also I'm changing the subject now because that was the the sort of political answer I'd expect and er I suppose until I get somebody else come on and say he's talking absolute whatever er I mean I think it is down to the people who live and work with the school. I think if you all make a mess you should be severely reprimanded quite frankly expect other people to come round and pick up your mess. Well that's something that a as a teacher we're erm in my school we're constantly saying t to the pupils I mean if they ha they have a they have a certain responsibility t to tidy up after them and t to try and keep their work area tidy that's not the same as er as cleaning at the end of the day as sweeping up all all the dust and and so on. What about this mum's army of teachers is this going to come to fruition as some point or not? I don't I don't believe it is erm at the mo well earlier this week a report was published by the National Commission on Education which was er an independent erm Commission that was set up erm and they they've said that basically what we need to be doing is t if we're trying to raise standards is to keep the idea of having an all graduate profess profession followed up by high quality for train training for teachers once they've actually started work. The problem there is that graduates are so terribly boring and uninteresting people basically aren't they that they find it difficult to impart their er You would? I would yes. You're a graduate. I am yes. Yeah I thought so anyway. Er I would have thought that graduates find it more difficult to impart knowledge to people than anybody else. No I'd I'd I don't I don't believe that that's the case erm Karen come to the studio please. Karen come to the studio please. Karen co sorry I just want to do something go on. Yeah so okay I'm I'm I'm I don't think that's the case. I'm I'm winding you up a little bit but no I mean there's a little method in this . When are the teachers going to stop being political animals and get down to teaching rather than try to score points off the Government? Oh we're Cos anybody can score points off them I mean it's simple. We we well we'd love to be able to get get on with our job and er wi with far less interference than we receive at the moment but er when government insists on er on interfering to the extent it does an and there have been well I've been reading recently so something like five hundred new powers the Education Secretary has given himself in the in over the last last few years. Well he's not going to be there for ever. Decisions are made decisions are made erm there that we and we have to live with the consequences of them. If they affect education then it's our responsibility to speak up about them. You see I I think er er probably one of the best erm Ministers of er of er Education that er has been for quite some considerable time and I bet you throw your hands up in horror when I say this you will totally disagree and I'm talking here cos his name's just slipped out of my mind . Who was tha who was that oh for goodness sake tall thin gaunt looking man, always had to have about fifteen spoonfuls of sugar in his coffee whenever I met him? S Sir Keith Joseph? Er you knew you see Sir Keith Joseph. Now I I remember talking to him for hours once on a programme about education and this was when he first said what we want is teachers to be accountable. And I'm a great believer in everybody should be accountable right? Yes. We well I've no objections to that to that at all. No none of you do now but when he first suggested it everyone was up in arms and he poor old soul I remembered he said, I've had enough change I I believe in this I I've I've tried I'm too old now and out he walked. Is there a chocolate machine in the building? And off he went. He was addicted to chocolate. I I I think erm a lot of teachers would now look back on those days with er a certain fondness now bearing in mind what's what's happened since and the the the succession of education secretaries we've had since since then I mean had the only one in recent years who I would say has attempted a genuine dialogue with the teachers and tried to do something constructive is John McGregor. So when, and I would agree with you again, so when are the teachers going to be accountable, when is somebody who is a bad teacher and heck there are quite a few of them, you know it only takes a couple in every school to make it difficult for the rest, going to be got rid of you know you are not up to the mark out. There there are systems in place in schools already for that and there always have been. You jest with me now come on we're we're we're being serious Noel if you are a teacher it is almost impossible to sack you. Almost totally impossible. That's simply not true. There there are disciplinary procedures in in all schools erm which are there to be used. Why are they never used then? Are all teachers too good to be sacked because it is it is as rare as erm teeth in chickens. I think it's I think it's very easy to er to ex exaggerate the problem to take one anecdotal evidence of of one about one or two cases and maybe about one or two people and say this is a major problem in every school. Let me put it this way to you Noel I don't think it is. Let me put it to you this way you know as well as I do people who really ought to be doing something else other than teaching. You know that as well as I do and those people don't seem to be given the encouragement to move on to another profession. I I Some are some are promoted to head teachers I know and I knew you were going to say that. I wasn't going to say that no . Erm no I I honestly don't think that er that the the problem is as big as as big as you you say it is and I I think the the structures are there to deal with that and if if people had you know if people used them then they would they would work and they from time to time that they are used and you know it it is not impossible to get rid of rid of a teacher in in the way you are suggesting. Okay Noel thank you for your er your time and being a good sport this afternoon and I hear you have a little one you had better go back and sort things out. That's right. Okay. Okay thanks. Thanks a lot Noel bye bye. Noel from the er N U T. Erm I don't know what this is serious point actually if if you fancy yourself as one of these so called mums and I think it is a little patronizing the er title of a mums' army of teachers, if you think that maybe you could do that and you'd be interested in doing that and you think it's quite a good idea I'd be interested in hearing from you, all right? O nine O four serious talk O nine O four six four one six four one erm if you'd like to do that give me a call. Now where is er where is Rita where are you Rit all right my love all right where's Rita I've got I've got yellow I've got red I've got blue I've got green. What number is Rita on give me a number because I haven't got white? Twenty four Okay right if I put that down there Rita hi. Hi. How are you? I'm fine thanks . Hang on let me do that again that's good that isn't it? Makes a little noise click click click click. Can I have a chip does anybody hi Rita Hi. Lovely Rita meter Oh don't please. I hate that isn't it awful to be obvious. Well that's what everybody sings to me when them and they meet me for the first time or get introduced to me. Oh they don't. Where are you calling from we're very loud with callers today I know I'm not the most exciting thing on radio but you know there must be some callers out there somewhere? Where am I. I'm at a little place called Ellenthorpe. Ellenthorpe. Is the weather as bad as people keep telling me because it was Okay when I drove in this morning. No it's not it's it's quite mild, there's no frost on the ground it's all gone. So what's this about snow at Thirsk? Well they can keep it we don't want it. Bit strange in Thirsk anyway I thought. I think there'd probably somebody with expanded polystyrene ceiling that's been pulled out. Probably. Yeah it's it's actually it's not too bad it's a bit misty it's a bid hazy erm slight wind but it's not bad. It's not? No it's not bad No Okay. I've just got to get something do you mind? No go and get your chips or whatever. No I've got I've got I wanted t It's all right my hubby can wait for his lunch I aren't bothered. Jolly well ought to as well. Er I wanted to talk to Jim Bowen you see about this quiz show host ought to be a a little nicer than they are and apparently his answer machine is on at home. Well I must admit James I've threatened to put mine on. Have you? Well Karen said that if I won the competition she'd ring back. Mm and then you thought, Oh God I've done it now . But I had to speak to you you see and I dialled you while you actually said on the air that anyone that won had to speak to you and said to Karen look if you ring back I'll put the answer phone on . I know I thought that was good because then everybody puts the phone down you see and they all think they're going to be terribly clever. Yes I think it depends on what kind of a message you actually have on your recorder to start off with. Is your's rude. No it just says that it's basically to the effect of that the answering machine is quite reliable I I and if you leave a message it will be dealt with and people do leave a message, whereas before when it just said I'm sorry I'm not available they didn't they just put the phone down. I usually leave a message saying I'm having sex at the moment ring back in about three seconds. And do they? Sometimes sometimes they never ring back at all ever. I should've just say you're bragging. Yes you're right, you been speaking to my wife? Well yeah we'll probably use the same supermarket I don't know. So listen I wan er er so is there any snow out there at all anywhere? No no hon There's not. Any chips out there ? Well to be honest Ja I can't see that far normally from where I live I can see the White Horse bank but it's shrouded in mist at the moment erm no I can't see so I couldn't tell you whether there there is snow up there or not. Okay. I also I I also erm er what was I going to say I would take the disc but I can't find a way of getting into this machine actually it's broken erm . It sounds about par for the B B C. Young Danny, the big boss now weekend said er take a disc take a disc and I said yeah well it's knackered er erm. What? Sorry. I'm doing that talking to you look for Jim Bowen's mobile phone number so I thought we'd give him a ring that'll surprise him wont it? Yeah. Okay er Can the B B C afford these phone calls? I don't think so no I don't think so at all that's why they don't call anybody back. Oh well you can call me back. Erm oh hang on just a minute can you hang on there? Yeah Well hubby's waiting I'll I'll get to you in a minute. for his lunch but it doesn't really matter. No stuff that who cares? Er hungry. He well so am I. Actually I was hoping someone's going to bring in some er some some Nouveau Beaujolais Nouveau cos a new one came out on Thursday. Is there nobody round here listening that can erm that could bring in some Beaujolais Nouv no no little Off Licence that will do this free publicity on the B B C to come in a say, Look I'm an odd bin or something like that ? I I thought the B B C I thought the B B C couldn't advertise then? No the B B C can't. But you can? Well. You're the exception to the rule I suppose? Yes you wait till you get severely beaten and then you say I'm very sorry I didn't mean to do that. Hang on hang on I've got Rachael from er from Guide Friday Buses. Oh golly hang on just a minute . I think I think I think you've probably stirred a hornets nest up with that. Hang on just a minute. Er Rachael? Rachael? Hello. Is that you Rachael? Yes it is. God I've I've been in love with you ever since I met you all those where are you at the moment? I'm actually in the office in Tower Street over looking Are you? Clifford's Tower. Why don't you wonder over here? There isn't actually a bus in oh yes there is a bus in sight. Why don't you wonder over here and bring a bottle of wine and we'll share it over the next hour of the show. Oh I can't I've got things to do in the office, a busy company here. I never did like those open topped buses. Well unclear So I'll be back to you. at the moment I can see about half well a dozen people sat on one of the buses. Can you? Yes. No wonder there's no traffic moving out there today. There is traffic moving, it's moving quite freely apart from the cars going into the car park just behind Clifford's Tower. Is that right? That's right yeah. There's never any spaces behind Clifford's Tower so I don't know how you're just telling me fibs aren't you? Well they're all they're all queuing up to go in there so I not sure. I just don't understand all these buses with the open tops it's freezing out there and all these tourists look they could walk Rachael. Well are tourists They could walk, why don't they walk? It's a seven kilometre tour. It takes an hour and a lot of people don't want to walk around the city they'd like the option of going around on the bus. What did the Minister of Health say the other day? Obesity obesity and lack of exercise. and that's what you're encouraging Rachael . Not encouraging lack of exercise we're encouraging an informative tour around the city with a qualified guide. You still got that beautiful blonde hair? We're not on the air are we? No no no we're not on the air. Heaven forbid I wouldn't talk to you like this if we were on the air would I ? Anyway so go on. Right. What were we talking about? So you don't mind Talking about the buses. Yeah. So I mean I think it'd great Guide Friday you run around little flag in the air, I've seen them in London and you can do that and and and people get so fit. Not that you need to be any fitter than you are. Well they are fit cos they get on and off at any of the stops they go along to the attraction that they want to do. Yeah I walk from my front door to my car as well and people say that's not enough exercise. Well the a there's the Barbican Centre for the exercise perhaps they should encourage the tourists there then. Mm Forgetting all about oh dear I've got a frog when I go on the air I'll clear that. Er can you hang on a minute? Yes certainly. I just got a we commercial breaks call you back in a minute don't go away yet. Rita? Rita? Oi Rita where's Rita gone. You cut her off well get her back on. Get her back on or she's not having this I'm sorry about that hang on just a minute block your ears I'm just going to spin round again okay hang on oops er are you their Rachael are you there? I'm here yes. Oh you are okay fine good got you. I can't open me thing here. the the er music blowing machine. There's a problem hang on. are you do you ever go in for karaoke and stuff stuff like that? No I don't. Yeah all right never mind about the photo give me your teddy I don't care about that. Er Rachael Yeah. Yeah what are you doing this evening? I'm going to Seaham this evening. Seaham who? Seaham up in er County Durham. Oh I know yeah I know Seaham yeah. What were are you doing? I thought I want it on the C Ds. Oh right sorry. I should think so. Playing with me knobs. Look hang on I've got one queu are you all right there Rachael? Hello. Do you get fed up with people saying, Are you really like that one in Coronation Street? No I don't actually cos I'm nothing like her . Erm You look similar. Well that's er that's a insult. It's not. It is. Yeah. I thought when we did we did that programme out to lunch in the summer and you came along and we talked all about buses and er your organization and I I I was very nice to you actually. You were very pleasant. And didn't say you know, It's flipping these tour buses in York that cos all the other people trouble because you can't get anywhere they clog the roads up. Well that's really not our problem I mean that's to do with the deregularization of er bus companies allowing any anybody to start up a bus company. Oh that's a bit political Rachael isn't it a bit political I wasn't expecting that featured the last er three years some of the other companies have only been here since last year and the year before so I mean we're a national tour operator experienced in running open topped tours around cities. Could you hang on just a minute don't go away just stay there hold on. Ah Rita. Yes James. Good. Sorry about that Still here. What? I said I'm still here. You had to go off and make his nosh didn't you? No I didn't he's in the kitchen being a very very domesticated husby and he's making own nosh. He's not is he? Yeah he is oh heck I've got to get the news in haven't I that worries me. Well don't worry if you ask him nicely he might even make you a bacon sandwich. Would he? What's his name? Alan. Alan. Make us a bacon sandwich. What? Just a minute he wants to know what you said. I don't think I dare. Anyway Hawaiian Wedding. Song. Oh well done what a difficult competition yeah. Thank you James. Now just could you sing it first. Could I what? Sing it. James you've got a licence to go on the air haven't you? Doesn't matter. It does cos if I sing if I sing you The B B C have got to give everybody a fair crack of the whip. Now come on James you were saying you were short on callers the few that you've got you don't want to get rid of. Yes Karen all right I'm building up to that for goodness sake . Oh James no James you want some listeners I'm sorry love . What about Hound dog? Hound yeah well you know that hound dog whines? Yes. That's good to what I sing like. What about Don't Be do you know the words to Don't Be Cruel. Come here a minute Karen. Come here you said you do come here she's a bit of a singer is Karen. I know yes I know she is . Anything to get er to be a star . I've heard her at Christmas time. How come? Well she I think it was Karen that did something for Children in Need last year and she sang on the air. Children in Need, people in greed. No. Come here. James you were once a child. I was never a child I was born bald. Ooh gawd heaven help us . Hound dog Don't hound dog. Hound dog. Go go on one two three four. Woof woof. Come on Karen sing it. It's undignified, karaoke it's not You ain't you ain't nothing but a Hound dog. What's the next line? Crying all the time. Crying all the time You ain't nothing but a hound dog. Yes. Crying all the time. That's good Okay. You ain't never caught a rabbit and you ain't no friend of mine. She knew it all the time. Yes she did she's good . Yeah. Okay well the only thing about this is and we're going to send this to you and er you take it out and get Rita's address. Thanks. That's Okay. Bye. Bye. Er it's karaoke video as well. So you do need a karaoke machine. Well it's all right because my daughter's got one her music cassette thing whatever. Mm. Mm so we can do it on that. Oh. And have a good laugh and think of you. I think I might ring Nina I've just found her home phone number in my book . Have you. Yeah. Why do you want to ring her, James . I don't know I just thought about it be quite funny . I thought you were ring James er Bowen . Jim Bowen I am I am I've got a number I'm going to ring him in minute. You are? Yeah. Okay go and make me a bacon sandwich Yeah. and I'll see you later. Okay then. All right darling it's been lovely. I bet you can't find to come and pick it up. No I can't. No. Oh See you later. Bye James. Bye bye. Okay let's er let's go back where are you Rachael? Hello I'm in Tower Street. I know you're in Tower Street I'm just being facetious really. Any way . Hound dog can you do Hound Dog no don't don't be cruel how does that go? Sorry? Sing Don't be cruel . I'm not singing at all. Why not? Because I can't sing. Oh hang on the ex-directory number's ringing. That's the boss he'll be complaining. So there's no chance of getting rid of all these coaches and getting people to walk round the er the guided tours and stuff like that? Er well that would defeat the whole object of offering the open topped tours if people were actually walking. Well it would defeat you making a few bob . There is actually there is actually walking tours around the city for those people who wish to opt for Mm. for a walking tour. So there is the option of doing both the walking tour or the bus tour. Okay hang on just a minute. Er Danny? He's the bo he's what they call the editor of the programme. Right. Okay just in case you're wondering who I'm talking t Danny anything else you want me to ask her? He cos he are you sure we've done this erm everything all right? Okay right sing along with me Rachael. Are you ready? I'm not singing. You're not singing. You're not singing? No. Hooray. Oh no I didn't. Oh here we go. I want you to sing along with this it's very good you'll enjoy this all right. Everybody at home join in as well here we go. Robin Hood riding through the glen. Rachael? Hello. Come on. Sing I'm not singing honestly. Show that this guide I can't sing I'd embarrass myself . Yeah but nobody can sing I deter anybody who'd every wanted to get on one of the buses . No you wouldn't they'll all come on and say where's that girl that sings Robin Hood. I don't think they would. Are you not going to do this? I'm not I'm sorry I'm not singing. Are you not? Okay right do a little dance for me go on. I've got people in the office, I can't dance. You've got people in the office? Yeah. Customers? Er got two guides, a guide and a driver to tell you the truth. Okay could you let me talk to the driver? Yes certainly. Put the driver on I want to talk to the driver. Robin Hood Robin I like that it's great. Haven't got another record queued up . Hello. Hi who are you? Julie. Are you a driver? Don't sound so surprised, that's really sexist. Why? The way you said that. Just because I'm a female. I didn't say that. I just said are you a driver? Yeah I am. Oh I mean you just sound so young to be a driver that's what I was going to say. Well I am. You are young? I am. You are young. I am. Yes you are young. Yes. Yeah. You are also a woman. I am yes . Yeah yeah yes yeah. You're not that blonde one I've noticed driving around and nearly swerved to have a better look at the other day are you? Well no that just might have been Rachael you were just been talking to. No she does she says she she wouldn't be allowed to drive she says scatter brain you wouldn't let her drive would you? . Mm? No I can't say anything can I? Is she your boss? Sort of yes. Do you get well paid for this job? No. You don't well you don't deserve to get well paid because Not for all the hassle we get. for all the time that we have to sit behind you when we're trying to drive around blowing our horns going get out the way . Well ninety per cent of the time you shouldn't be where we are cos it's no cars. Absolute rubbish. Unless you're a taxi. Don't they know who I am? What do you mean I shouldn't be there? Oh I'm really sorry. What sort of car do you drive round in? What would you think I drive round in? I'll I'll make a point in looking out for ya. I've got I've got a huge a huge turbo Bentley with a great big whale stuck on the front. Oh right. And Andy written down the back if you want to scratch it. Oh well no I won't do that I'll just drive round at five mile an hour in front of ya. You do that anyway. Oh no no be fair it's fifteen usually. Is it? Er all these people gawping at everything. I if I was a building the last thing I would want would be people gawping at me. Well where does all the revenue come from into York? Int I don well not from you lot does it? No but it comes from the tourists that come on our bus. Does it? Oh ho yes. Oh there you're being serious with me now. I've just Me? I've just got to find a record here hang on. I I've got okay. Er right. It's probably news time fairly soon. Probably. Yeah I when are you dri are you driving this afternoon? I am. Is this sort of you know yes no interlude here? Was that you? No it wasn't. That was you. You want to get yourself some dinner. I know I'm so they they eat you see they've eaten fish and chips and it goes through the air conditioning and it comes into the studio you all you can smell is fish and chips. And is makes your stomach rumble. It does. That is sad. Okay. That is so sad. All right. We all feel sorry for you. I'm going now. Are you? I've got to go listen it's been lovely t talk to talk talking to you if you could pop in with a bottle of I wanted to try the new Beaujo If anybody's got it and they come over, just ring the ring the door bell. I'll go to blue hang on I'll just go to blue hang on a minute there don't go away. Hello? Hello blue. Hello. Alan. Yes. Alan . That's him yes. My fan at B B C headquarters. That's right yes. Oh I see Karen's fan. Well yes I well I like to think I'm a fan everybody's fan. You do? Yes. Yes well we all like to live in little dream worlds don't we? Yes. Listen I I'm going to come back and talk to you in more lengths Yes. after the news. Forward to it James. What? I look forward to it. Oh you look forward to it yes I'm I'm good I'm glad about that. Have you got the er have you got the wine there or not? Yes of course. Well why don't you bring it over here? Well we can't I'm afraid we're always too drunk to drive. You're too dru it's one o'clock in the afternoon you can't be drunk. Well we are we've got all this wine to ship. I thought you might like to send somebody over in the van and pick a bottle or two up and you can have a party in the studio after your show. You do sound a bit per per per erm ber ber paralysed slightly don't you? Yeah okay we'll come back and talk to you in a moment don't go away. Okay. And er we'll send somebody over to well maybe who knows. Er right Mary Whitehouse to come we'll be talking about sex and the Buddha of Suburbia and er whatever else sort of takes her fancy and we are going to liven up the traffic I think at er round about one twenty five and find out what's happening there. Now do I do it over the music across the north I do it over the music Okay right here we go . Across North Yorkshire and around the world this is Radio York from the B B C. Health workers from North Yorkshire join a day of action in London to protest at the Government's health policies. Almost eighty people have been killed in a toy factory fire in China and site workers from Middlebrook Mushrooms marched through Selby to mark the first anniversary of their dispute. B B C news at one o'clock I'm Claire Frisby. Thousands of health workers are marching through the centre of London in protest at the Government's health reforms. Later they will hold a rally in Trafalgar Square. Stuart Flinders has this report. Coaches and specially chartered trains brought the protesters from Scotland Yorkshire and all parts Locally moderate on the Wolds and the Pennines but some heavy falls on the North York Moors and the northern Pennine hills. It's going to be cold today with maximum temperatures only four degrees celsius but six degrees celsius on the coast. B B C news and weather for North Yorkshire at five past one. B B C Radio York. We're here until two and erm now look oh yes Alan can you hang your phone up Alan we'll call you back sorry about that. O nine O four six four one six four one. Stuart how's it going? Fabulously. All those women you've got out there. Yes you do. No I don't. You're trying very hard with . they don't belong to me either of them. Don't they? No Just send one of them in here and then I'll see if I can er I don't mind really I'll see if I can which one would like me to chat up for you I suppose really that's basically it. All right I'll try for you I'll try for you I'll see if I can O nine O four six four one six four one. Is there enough sex on television? Er and should we ban the tour buses from the centre of York or anything else you want to talk about give us a call now. We could do with a call anybody there anyone's near a phone just pick it up and ring me all right just ring now I'll give erm we'll give a million pounds to the first caller fingers crossed. Okay you're absolutely right er we did play that at the beginning of the programme we had a little trouble with our C D what happened there Stuart it went off the air didn't it? Oh I see I see so you plugged it in? Oh that's good if I if I kick the er if I kick the erm plug myself I could have plugged it back in. Oh good well I must remember that next time it's always good to know how to do these technical things. I didn't think you wanted to be bored by that again and Alan's back on there so er where are you there you are right. Am I ah sorry am I Alan ah yes I'm sorry yes I who do you want to be that's the thing who do you want to be? For a moment but no Yeah. My friend Mike with the big house hasn't phoned in yet has he either he usually phones in the last part of the programme. Yeah he's probably drinking his Beaujolais now I should think. You think so? Yeah. Yeah he's a very you know it's funny I know it's the worst time to do a phone in actually because people are doing other oh I've got me foot caught in the whatsit but erm I thought I thought we'd get loads of people on saying I'd been very rude saying that this was er er er nation of animal haters and abusers. Erm are you talking to Perhaps they didn't understand what I meant. me James? What? Are you talking to me? I don't mind really it's er er you know six of one I thought you might be talking to somebody else in the studio. No no I thou I'll I'll talk to you if you want. All right I've just been making some notes here. Yes? Erm just just recap you don't mind if I take note while your talking do you? No I'll go and talk to the wall. Ah ah no Who are those people back to dogs that in North Korea you know they don't just last till Christmas unclear No the keep A family of four will make them last right through to the new year. They do I mean they have to because meat's rationed in North Korea you know. You're absolutely right you're absolutely right and and I think That's that's nonsense about Hawaii You melt the bones down into stock. The at Hawaiian What? weddings. Coy? Have you ever been to one? A Hawaiian wedding? Yes. No I haven't been a Hawaiian wedding. Well they pie it's awful. Oh pie. Pie. I thought you said coy you know. Yeah. Like apple pie or rhubarb pie. Apple pie? Erm. You know apple pie. I'm just looking Chocolate pie. This er Sorry we're being a bit this is too too surreal for the B B C you're going to get on the line. They don't understand. Hang on just a minute don't go away I want you back stay there Alan. All right? Are you listening to me? Yes I am I'm all ears . Stay sit stay. They call be Clark Gable go on. . Jim? Hello. Hi how's Pickering? Have you got any snow? Not yet. No? promised some. You're promised some? promised some this year. Oh gosh not too much I hope . er Sunday yes tomorrow. Going to be er quite a a lot on the Moors so they reckon. Well I'm going to keep off the Moors then. I don't blame you. I'm not going anywhere near the Moors. Australia soon. Australia? Yeah. Who? Me. What for? Well I'm going for the winter. You're going to you're flying south for the winter? I am yep. That's quite nice actually. I'm going to get away from it all. I wish I was doing that to be honest with you. I think everybody should . That's my attitude you know anybody who who can go go. Do you know I was in Birmingham yesterday. Was you? Yeah I was in Birmingham yesterday there's a call believe it or not there's an actual person ringing in. That's right. Sorry I was in Birmingham and I went you know where the er repertory theatre is? Yep. Cross the road from Central. Yeah. And if you go round the back through the I C erm whatever it is the I C A. Yep. All the canals have been done it's wonderful. Oh so they've told me. Yeah I haven't been behind there lately. Do you know that Birmingham have more cana has more canals than Venice? Yes that's right. Well I went to Venice er some years ago and I thought it was a dirty hole. Did you? Oh I did I I mean I didn't do round where the er sightseers went I went the places where you're not supposed to see. Aha. You know? You disgu I do that hang on just a minute don't go away. Alan? Yes hello James. You're there are you? Yes yes. Oh good good. Meet meet er meet Jim from er Pickering. Hello Jim are you from Birmingham? Yes. You from Brum? I am yes. Oh. I can't do that it feeds back that's a shame isn't it. You're from where? South Yardley. Oh South Yar you know that do you Alan, South Yardley? I I've passed through there. You have. Is it a nice place? Er well. Okay say no more Alan say no more. No wonder you moved to Pickering. Er yes yes. Hang on just a minute just a minute just a minute Jim. Go on. Watch him wa I'm talking to the lady next door be careful of him he's he's Stuart that's Stuart yeah very careful of him. Right. No not you. Oh. The the young lady next door. Oh I get ya. You know you know put your phone down. I don't know why but just put it down. Anyway Jim so you're off to Australia? Yeah. Yeah. Where? Er Melbourne. Melbourne. Yeah. Have you been there before? No no. I've got relations in Melbourne,al also in New South Wales. How much does it cost to go over there? Thousands. Really? Quantas. It is Quantas a lot yes. Yep. Yep. Well when you figure if out I mean it's return isn't it? Yeah what the hell you and me it's nothing is it I mean you know that's it eh? The thing is you only do this probably once in a life time. You're right. And er you know you you save your money and you take your pick that's that's how I look at it. Well you have a good time. Thanks. They said there's some good restaurants in Melbourne. Yep. I've not been but they say there are. Yes. All right. Okay Jim. Okay then. Bye. Ta-ta. Yes that was good I enjoyed that. Michael. Hi James. How's the house? Erm warmer. Is it? Yeah a lot warmer. Oh good good . . Yeah? It's lovely to be able to walk around in just your underpants again. Yeah but it's not so nice for people who look through the windows is it ? Oh well no one overlooks. Don't they? No no no nobody. Not yet anyway. Oh. Until they get planning. I hear you're in the roller today. Er how did you know? Well it's just come up on my screen it says, He's in the roller. Oh well there you go you see I haven't got one I used to have one. You did? Yeah I didn't like it. No. I it was an old man's car. I think it is really isn't it? What do you drive? I don't, I have a chauffeur. What does he drive? Erm anything he can get his hands on. Oh really. . That's Sidney isn't it? Sidney the chauffeur yes you know Sidney. How is he then? Yeah he's ve well funnily he's er sit sitting over there I told him off when we came in he was driving too fast. Oh well there you go. Tell me how did you do with the young girl last week? Did you actually er No. No. No not at all not at all. It's too early it's to early in the afternoon for me really. Right right did you take her out on the evening? No no no no no no no. Well where did you go on the evening anyway? Where did I go? Yeah. Where did you go on the evening? Er we went out for dinner actually with some Did you? friends. You didn't invite us did you? I was going to do. Karen and I were waiting here nobody invi we sat in all night and watched T V actually. I could have done but I was a little bit worried about your table manners. Well I don't have any table manners. Well that's what I mean I was a You know. little bit worried. I think tables with manners are ridiculous. Oh absolutely. Yeah. I just bought a new table this week. You haven't. Yeah absolutely. We get you're getting quite a big celebrity on this programme people want to know you know whether they can come round and have a guided tour round the house and stuff like that. It won't be long it will be ready in the not too It will? distant future. Yeah. Er as long everybody keeps to plan. I don't have you ever had er extensive renovations to your property? No I've always been perfectly healthy. You have. Well someone told me you were thinking about it. Did they? Yes. No. No? No. Are you happy with the bags under your eyes? Aha . Just put your head down there will you just put it down there. Great. Erm anyway listen you have you got the Beaujolais Nouveau? No I wouldn't drink such rubbish. Oh I'm just trying to get someone to Okay I actually went to a Beaujolais Nouveau evening the other evening and someone offered me a glass I said, Don't be so bloody insulting who do you think I am. Do you think I was pompous? It is really. Well But then tha I would expect nothing less from you. Well absolutely. You know. Pomposity and you go hand in hand I mean and if not people wouldn't love you as they do. Absolute did you go out last night? No. I I was in Birmingham. Oh how did it go? Oh it was good. Good. yeah it was good. Can you I went out last night. Can you hang on just a minute got to take a quick break don't go away just a minute. We'll be meeting Jane Goldman who's published a survivor's guide to being thirteen something. Just four years out of her teens herself she's packed a whole lot into her life already. Author journalist mother and wife of Jonathan Ross. If you take pain killers regularly you like thousands of others have probably been worried after hearing what's happening to Michael Jackson. Don't be, we have reassuring news from one the county's experts in pain management. We're off to Scarborough to see the bakery busy preparing edible Pudsey Bears especially for Children in Need only just over a week away now and Jill Pattenden our woman's health expert is in we'll be talking about cervical smear tests and Jill can help you with period problems pregnancy child birth menopause contraception do ring us from eleven. Ah that's good that's great. That was very interesting. That's nice. Very interes I And that Michael Jackson's son you know. Are you? Yeah I'm a bit too old for him now but er you understand. But that was er if you didn't hear the mid morning show last week that's what you missed. Oh right. Cos that was last week's mid morning show trail and I don't I don't see any point in playing what's happening next week. That's right absolutely. Because you know it may night anyway. Sorry? I was going to tell you about last night. Oh yeah go on then. Yeah I went out I go out every Friday with the boys I don't er old habits die hard. Really? Yeah absolutely. Old friends from many years ago they probably wouldn't call me a friend but I am saying that er very er How long do you think you can talk for? Oh hours hours. I wonder if I can go to the er little boy's room at the end of the corridor while you're Well go off you're okay es Okay especially as there's a monetary incentive. I tell you why don't you invite me on the show or would you feel a bit overawed? Are you there? Hello I think he's gone and I assume we're still not on the air. But for those who are still listening I'm still here. Ah right oh okay how did you manage? on and off so probably managed very badly. What I was going to say Oh dear me sorry thanks Mike phew . Why don't you invite me on the show unless you feel you mi you may be overawed in my company? Well I maybe in a couple of weeks we might but I mean we like to keep it going and then because when it's when you come on the show you'd be such a be such a terrific let down I want a bit of face to face something more interesting this is er getting a little bit tedious. Is it? Ah. Okay easily solved. Ah anyway if you want to call us O nine O four six four one six four one O nine O four six four one six four one give us a ring now. Billy Joel this is what we're going to play and er traffic is coming up to let you know the state of play on the roads it's pretty awful out there today. You're listening to B B C Radio York. Soul to soul Billy Joel this is the B B C from North Yorkshire. And Whale is on till two we've got Mary Whitehouse not not the experience the person. Erm we've got bare naked ladies and erm traffic and travel traffic and travel do up traffic and travel and all sorts of stuff er so I want a I want a call from anybody whose never done it before. I want somebody whose sitting there listening to the radio sort of er just relaxed and I I just want you to pick up the phone and ring. Don't have to talk about an just a good chat you know just I don't want to I don't want to talk about good people or all about that I don't want to talk about that I want to talk I want to talk to that person out there who will feel now that it is them that I am I am appealing to I am appealing I now. It is them that I am appealing to somebody because of the erm the the th thought transference that I am using is feeling now compelled to pick up the phone O nine O four six four one six four one. Yeah right . That's it yes ah I'm connected with you I am on a cerebral plane connected with you our brains our interlinked you reach down you pick up the phone and you ring now. O nine O four six four one six four one pick it up ring now and we'll talk after this. There's the call it's coming in I knew it would work in fact we'll talk straight away now just come straight through to me O nine O four six four one six four one and there's another one there so just pick up the phone and hear as we sit and talk and chew the fat and stuff like that hello? Hello. Who's that? Marjorie. Marjorie. I'm just ringing up to say you helped me along with my ironing great. Oh God Marjorie . the first time really had a good laugh. Marjorie ironing on a Saturday. . What what have you got tell me what you've been ironing Marjorie I want to know what what sort of things? Tell me come on tell me tell me. Oh just sheets and pillow cases and No no no. and things like that. And the and the little unmentionables you don't want to tell me about. They're not so little. Aren't they? Oh dear. Perhaps you could play along and pretend they were you know that would have been good you could pretend that you were sort of erm I I erm er er Christie Brinkley. Mm very good. You know could you pretend to be Christie Brinkley? Listen I just rang up to say, I don't really want to talk to you. Oh no but you had to because you felt that sort of there there was that bit between you and me wasn't there? That we just connected on a kind of mental plane. Well it was the bald head business. Listen there are a lot of women find the bald head syndrome very attractive. Oh yes definitely. I was born with no hair. I was born wi I never had much hair. In fact I need a hair cut at the moment. Okay then. Are you going now? Cheerio. Go and sit down bye bye. Bye. Bye right are you ready for traffic and travel ? act constructively when Oh hang on that's the wrong one hand on that's it okay. Er you ready for traffic and tra I cou what I could do here is wonderful being on B B C cos you can go like this and say this is radio two And yes I can see I can do this I can go radio four Something should be done. I do think so something should always be done. Or I can say are you ready for traffic and travel? Mhm. Are you sure? You don't sound very sure to me. Who is it on traffic and travel? Hello? Gary whatsit. Gary? Hello. Are you ready just a quick test . I am I'm ready yes I'm fine. Could you make sure you do this really quite fine because I'm I'm we're doing an air check on this bit Okay yes sure. and it's going for an audition tape for er for radio one okay? Okay fine yeah. Could you do that? Absolutely. Get right down there and make it er we've got a record playing in a moment make it er make it sort of fairly butch fairly butch okay? Okay. Okay and when you do the out er the out thing Yeah? How does that go? Erm it goes Gary Shaw A A Roadwatch. Gary could you do it? Gary Shaw A A Roadwatch. Just like that. Yeah okay I'll go and put the thing so I could be with you in a minute. Okay er right it's one twenty seven B B C Radio York the station that's first for travel. Oh hang on a minute er don't don't go just yet don't go just yet all right? I'll just I wasn't first for travel. Okay on the er A one area that's the er Bedale area, the earlier north bound lane closures have been lifted and the Leeming area the inside lane of the southbound carriageway's closed at Holby Grange for emergency gas repair works and delays are likely as a result. In York, travel near the butch very butch Knavesmire could be slow due to an event taking place and York City are playing Barnet at Bootham Crescent today so traffic will be fairly busy around that area. In Selby a demonstration is taking place this afternoon, it starts at one thirty and will go via Barlby Road and Scott Road and some traffic delays are likely. And finally in the Ripon area weekend roadworks mean the Road will be closed as it passes under the A one bridge and delays are likely. Gary Shaw A A Roadwatch. Do it again I like the bit do your name check at the end go on. Are you sure? Yeah go on. Gary Shaw A A Roadwatch. Yeah. Okay What on earth does that mean? Looking at the railways I wouldn't go anywhere near the station though I might oh hang on I mean what does that all mean? Isn't this better for tra wouldn't you take more wouldn't you take more notice of the traffic and travel if it was like this every time ? Okay er the thirteen twenty five erm when it looks like they all went early . It's the thirteen twenty five to Manchester Victoria left at thirteen O five. I need somebody to come in here and explain this. I think it is broken because it says also er Manchester to er I know it's expensive on British Rail but it says one thousand three hundred and five pounds up there. I'd phone the railway station if I were you I would phone it okay. That's okay that's traffic and travel's all right everything's snowing out there. Ah right John hello. John? Oh hang on you're not on there. You're on er red which is what number was red by the way can we remember what number red was? Okay right John hello John Er he connected well he hasn't connected on my well get him get him back get him back we'll connect hang up John put your phone down What? Put your phone down and we'll sort it out. Right. Okay well that was exciting wasn't I really enjoyed that and what can we do next?shall I? Okay this is good you'll enjoy this. That's not me by the way in case you thought I was phoning myself it's not me. And that's disgusting on radio this time of the day heavy breathing. Are we all doing this at home? Emergency which service do you require? Hello folks this is Dr Rock I hope you're going to join me every Sunday lunch time from twelve till two on B B C Radio York and yet yourself plugged into the cosmic line cos we're going to have lots of fun. We've got a Hollywood spot a comedy spot lots of raving rock and roll lots of incredible yarns so be there be square ooh ee. Rock rock with Dr Rock ooh keep taking the tablets. I love that do you know he's a mean man with a verruca that guy as well. I wonder how many people know that he's a chiropodist sh sh chiropodist great. Can we get him on the phone and talk feet? Cos I have got a verruca the si anyway that's a problem that I have I don't really want to share it with you. John hello. Good afternoon James. Good afternoon. Did we connect? I do believe we do. Shall we try I tell you what we could try now we could try connecting with somebody else. You and somebody out there. Ooh yes good idea. It's quite fun isn't where are you? In Ripon. Hard luck. . There's far worse places James. What? There's far worse places. Can you think of one off the top of your head very quickly? Ooh. No you see you can't. Consett. Yeah every time I get me take-away curry from Ripon I park outside the house that's somebody comes and he says you can't park there . Oh yes. It's not you is it? No it isn't no. Threaten to smack him next time. Definitely not no not me. No? There's nowhere to park in Ripon. Not a lot. Is there? No no there isn't it's dreadful. I think they should make the whole place a a pedestrian precinct. Good idea. Yeah. Yes. Not much good for the traders though. No. Not really. There's not many people in there spending any money is there? It's absolutely dead. You get all those those yobbos sitting around the sort of er the you know. Absolutely. Every time you go through there haven't they got homes to go to? Well. Why aren't they chained up somewhere? That's right. Oh that's what I think. I mean listen I'm the first person to talk in in support of body piercing I look I have parts of my body pierced I like it but I don't think standing around the street corners sort of revealing it is a nice thing to do. Especially this weather James. Exactly. Yes. Exactly actually on a on a point on body piercing for people who haven't had anything pierced and you should everybody should have if you go and have it done during the cold weather it's better. Oh. It makes a better cut. Right. Did you know that? No I didn't no. Mm. Not really into it James that. Has anybody connected with John from Ripon yet? Has any he's in a shop. Have you are you in a shop? I am. What sort of shop? An auto discount shop. Oh I know the one yeah. Yep. That's where people who've got crap cars go and try and get bits to stick them together. Crap is an okay word it's all right crap is not ru rude. I've heard people on er Pretty Close. Yeah. No er When you sell those things like that that that bonding tape that you use to put over holes and and they can get into the M O T. Yes glue you know that stuff . Yeah yeah. Yes. No one of the reasons I was ringing er I have actually er tried the old Beauj' this year. You've tried what? The Beauj' Nouveau. Oh I see I thought you were talking about toxophily for a minute. I tried it on Thursday actually at my local and this year it's er very pleasant. Really? Well somebody else told me that I mean er er the wine connoisseurs say who would drink that stuff you can't drink red wine . I mean a lot a lot of years it's quite iffy but this year it's not too bad at all. It's not? Not bad at all. Well I I I'm waiting I I imagined that somebody would be rushing down here with a bottle for me. Well They might well have done of course they might have refused it's the B B C they say you can't have a bottle That's right yes. in the studio you can't drink that. Very pleasant. Very pleasant indeed? Yes. Yeah yes I was just trying to think of something to to frighten the er the the er the is he what's white? Pardon? No what number is white? Oh twenty four isn't it? Oh. Can you hang on a minute? Er John? Yes? I'm sorry just hang on yeah hey. Rocky baby Hi there are we on the air? Yeah we're on the air how you doing ? Hallelujah Hallelujah. Now what to you want to know who recorded Rock Around the Clock first where's Jerry Lee Lewis is tonight? I want to hear some of this heavy breathing man . Oh hallelujah. Is that you? I want to know who you got to do that with? Emergency which service do you require? Ooh Not her do you like it? Very nice indeed yes. Very very good. Now listen. Yes. Can you come in next Saturday and take this wart off my finger? I certainly can James and I'll bring in my private surgical unit and freeze it off . Would you do that? Because I've had it for four years now and I'm you know a woman touched it the other day and she got really paranoid. Wow. Er Well no. Could you do that then next Saturday? Yes. There's no fee just come in and do it and anybody else who wants will have a wart clinic on the air why don't we do that? Invite people with warts in. Oh only one problem I'm on Radio Merseyside next Saturday. Oh no I might be able to actually no I'll be able to come in James because I'm not on until the evening, I can call in on my way to Merseyside. Of course you can and I'll I'll I'll tell you how you can get home. What are you doing over there? I'm doing a programme with Spencer Lee. Who's that? Oh he's just Hey Do you know I mean I know you're into rock and roll but do do you like some of the Tamla Motown stuff and that sort of thing . Oh course I do. Well I was doing er er er programme in Birmingham yesterday and I I had Jimmy Ruffin on. Lovely. I mean what a character. You know who lives near Birmingham as well Edward Star. I know. Yeah. Yep. I mean these characters nobody realizes that that that in America, Motown didn't look after their stars very well. Indeed not. Just look at Michael Jackson. Well what do you know the guy that sings What Becomes of a Broken Heart I mean nobody can find him. Well I found him I know where he is I've got his personal home phone number. My God you're a thorough lad you should have your own programme James. I know I'm trying for it I'm trying for it. Okay be here next week . Okay killer. Warts and all . Bye. Bye bye. That's Doctor Rock oh good I like him I really am the big fan of his. John? John in Ripon on red red's nine twenty one isn't it? Hello? What number's red I've forgotten? Red's twenty one okay hello John? He's gone he's probably had to serve somebody. What I could do is play a record but er I can't remember so bear with me for a moment. Oh what's that one Bare Naked Ladies, I'd better not play that just at the moment oh what's this one oh Billy Joel so so I'd better take that out you I'm always tempted to forget what I've actually played and what I'm not going to play. Er we're we're hoping to connect with erm Mary Whitehouse apparently she's engaged. Oh oh I thought she was married that's strange isn't it? Erm so have we got John back? Hello John? Oh please oh what's on radio two again nothing? Ah thank you that's good that's good that's enough that's enough don't want any more of that. Right ah can we connect again with a couple of people we we coming up there if anybody out there er is a fan of Mary Whitehouse's as I am give me a call and you know you know who I'm talking to ring now. Oh this is good what What? Yeah I know I didn't want to do that just at the moment Yep hand on hang on er I'm just I'm looking up again close the phone failure what that one there all right oh I was leaving that one open in case somebody rang through don't if they ring through can't they come straight on if I leave it open? Can't they do that? Oh they can in America and the green ones no there's all white there's all white and yellow. Never mind you can play the Bare Naked Lady thingummybobs and er then hopefully we go oh he's in the shop he's had a few customers we'll get back to John a bit later. Er right I need somebody out there who hasn't done this before erm let's see we've been to Ripon, been to Thirsk, erm been over to Scarborough with Dr Rock, North Allerton no I don't like North Allerton well I mean I love North Allerton no no I want to go south I want to go Tadcaster way have we anybody down there? What hang on just a minute sorry can't I can't hear you you'll have to speak up I can't hear a word Karen lives in Tadcaster oh oh another another another place to avoid really isn't it yes yeah. Anybody in Tadcaster who knows where Karen Smith lives and this is not my idea but it's a goody could you ring and tell us what she's got hanging out on the washing line at the moment. Is anybody there? Karen get that answer the call it's one of your neighbours now. Could anybody ring and tell us what she has got on the washing line. What's Karen got hanging on the washing line erm are we up are we up for erm the Bare Naked Ladies there I think we are. What has Karen got on her washing line it's a great game we could use it tell us what's Karen got on the washing line ? Er it's a new quiz show for radio four, what Karen what yeah whatever whatever okay. Er where did that call go? Have we got in on Karen thank you what? It's a roo it's a news room call is it? Oh okay these are the Bare Naked Ladies you will love this. Oh hang on no that's no good that's The Stripper why have a got The Stripper on oh I see this is the one you want okay Bare Naked Ladies, Be My Yoko Ono. Hang on just a minute right here we go. Mm there's the Bare Naked Ladies er they come from Canada they are a brilliant group I think they're brilliant I don't care I like them and that's called er Be My Yoko Ono I was going to go from the Bare Naked Ladies it was all planned I was going to go and say Mary Whitehouse how are you today and she was there er un unfortunately we've we called this is serious. If you live round the corner from Mary Whitehouse could you pop in and tell her that her phone is off the hook she hasn't replaced the receiver and she she's quite an elderly lady and I would would be terribly upset if if she hadn't got her phone back cos she might need it for emergencies or something like that and I am a caring concerned person so could you could you pop round the corner to Mary's house and tell her that she hasn't put her phone on the hook off the hook properly could you do that? Don't all shout at once but just could somebody go and do it right okay. Er now did we get John back or we've forgotten John now because he's in a shop serving customers in Ripon and er great take away Indian there very very good take away Indian and they did ask me this would you please play this so hang on. Frisby. Henry. Where are we going then? Richmond Henry we're heading north on a special mission for Children in Need. Right ho Richmond it is but where is Richmond? Well head north and then we'll ask. This is bizarre. You yes you over there in the yashmak where is Richmond. I beg your pardon. He says up the A one left at Catterick. Quel surprise. You yes you over there with the accordion we've got a mission, Children in Need programmed broadcasts celebrities to meet Paul Ayre Richmond. No sorry can't make you out. There's blues football actors and bagpipes all for Children in Need in Richmond on Friday twenty sixth November but we've got to get there first Henry. Try down these steps. . Oh that sounds a bit painful. You yes you on the spit where is Richmond. Oh do speak up I can't hear you. I am sorry your reply is not clear enough I'm going to have to shoot you it's for Children in Need Next week's morning story on B B C Radio York is dunno really I shall have to think about that have to think about that. Er now we we're trying very hard I haven't I haven't managed at this particular moment to er to contact with Mary Whitehouse we erm we haven't we haven't we will try and er in it'll it'll probably happen you never know. Now anybody who er who would like to see more sex on television, better give us a ring now I suppose O nine O four six four six four one if you er if you think the er Buddha of Suburbia which is erm has really upset Mary quite considerably. If you saw it over the weekend I mean there was I think it was group sex er it was it wa was gay sex and it was all going on I mean it was all I thought it was the most exciting thing I have seen for a long time to be quite honest. O nine O four six four one six four one. These are the Saw Doctors. Ah lovely I saw saw them live a couple of times they appeared on T V shows as well. Those are the Saw Doctors interesting this about the Saw Doctors is one of them won the lottery in Ireland I don't they have a lottery we're go when are we going to get a national lottery that's what I want to know when are we going to get it a national next year we're going to get a national lottery that's right and one of the Saw Doctors won the national lottery and he won three quarters of a million pounds er and they haven't made much money the Saw Doctors but he won three quarters of a million pounds so that haven't worked for quite some time but they are back on the scene as I speak and er they really if if they er come to York they're certainly worth seeing. They're really brilliant very very good live and that was called er er, That's What She Said Last Night. Isn't it always the way. Now just having a little look in the paper here today and er well oh the Mary Whitehouse saga continues by the way we are absolutely determined to get her on before the end of the show we've got ten minutes left. If anybody has seen her or knows her whereabouts could you please contact B B C Radio York immediately all right? Er B T now have er are sending a tone down her phone a tone down the phone and we're hoping that might happen otherwise we're going to try and send somebody round. Have we tried to sending somebody round? She actually I have to be I've been to her house and she lives in the middle of nowhere I won't tell you where, she lives in the middle of nowhere in fact I drove past it three times before we found it. Now Britain is heading for a pre-Christmas Sunday shopping bonanza believe it or not now you heard it first here on this programme that I I predict that there will be completely deregulated Sunday trading before much long What? Through the red light again what are you doing? You no discipline? Shall we call Alan Turner? Alan Turner? Yeah. I haven't got his number have you got it? No I thought you had your book with you this week. Erm but yeah but that's one of er oh pass me pass me the thing I don't actually when I think about it it's getting nearer the time. Did you see in the papers that any anybody who lives off near Harewood House is it Harewood? They were filming there this week. Yeah. And we weren't allowed that on. You weren't? No because they're going to I I think actually it's quite er it's quite wrong you know really it is quite wrong isn't it? What is? To to to crash a plane into Beckindale. What's the date tomorrow? The twenty first. Oh that's right yeah okay. Er to crash a er right let me just read er right er okay. What? It's it's quite wrong to er ring oh oh yeah right okay. To crash a plane into Beckindale . To crash a plane into Beckindale around about the anniversary of Lockerbie it isn't funny at all it's not funny and it's not clever. Well what do people think about it? Well what what do you mean what do people think they're not out there they've all gone flipping Sunday shopping. Shall we call our dot dot dot his name isn't Alan Turner. Well what's his name? His name is erm Richard er Thorpe which is why am I looking under T in my book ? You are. I haven't got it there I haven't got it there haven't got it there. I mean he might be listening if he's listening perhaps er perhaps Richard will ring in thank you. Er right okay. I'm going now. What's that yellow light on there that shouldn't really be on should it that one over there look. That's a telephone line. Oh all right okay okay see see you in a second. Now what can we do for Jane?you're you're wheezing? You're a bad woman . Dr Aye really quite bad. a lovely day like that, you're wheezing. No I've been quite bad for Thursday or Friday Have you? last week. Aye. Ah you're full of infection as well. I'm taking a steroid inhaler. Got a lot of pains Aha. in my chest and that. Your tubes are full. Aye. Very tired. I feel very tired. forgotten sometimes. Aye no wonder. Would you like to come. . Right okay, don't. Right. . Get your tubes loosened up. I'll need to give you an antibiotic as well Jane to Mm. that stuff because there's a lot of stuff lying Actually caught in the tubes. Aye I've take pains a lot. Aye. Everywhere. Everywhere? Aye. Right. And Thirteenth Well what about work? You'll no manage work No I've not been at my work this You've not been at your work. Aye. But they go on holiday on Thursday. But I phoned the work yesterday, Mhm. and I says er if I need a line, how will it work? And she says, Just ask your doctor for a line Mhm. to cover your work from yesterday to Friday. Then I go on holiday for three Right. weeks. . Now did you put in a self certificate as well did you? No well that's what I That's was phoning the work for. Aye self certificate this week? She says, No, and it's holiday time, a self certificate's no good. Aye You'll need an insurance line. No get a self certificate and put it in to Road. To keep yourself covered with Road. Alright. Cos that's what the work should have done. Ah. They should have got a self certificate and then sent it on to Road for you. Will I get that then? But you get it from What down the Road ? Aye down the Road and get it away Jane, just to keep yourself covered . Right. Cos er they should have done that. They're a crowd of bandits. Who's that ? yeah.. Och to breathe down there know what I mean, but oh. Mm. Boy it's getting getting past it. Aye it's the daughter now. It's no boys, it's Karen she's the boss . Lady Muck. Say no more Say no more. Okay, thanks now Doctor. Well you're that'll keep Jane. Okay? thanks. Right. Cheerio now. On the twenty fifth of May, nineteen eighty one, the Hundredth Bomb Group Memorial Air Museum located in the former control tower, which is er now completely renovated, was dedicated by Major Horace United States Air Force, retired. Er he er was the former Ground Executive Officer on the base from June nineteen forty three when the Hundredth Bomb Group started daylight operations against Nazi Germany until erm August nineteen forty five. Let us pray for all who ha who served on this airfield during the Second World War and the relatives of those who died. Oh Lord who to see that all the world, we thank thee for those who fought and those who laid down their lives in the cause of righteousness and freedom. Especially we remember those who served on this airfield and we pray that the peace they fought to obtain may not be lost to us, but as we may live and work to bring it to thy world, that Christ the Prince of Peace may reign in the affairs of men. We ask this in the name of him who lived and died for us even Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen. Our Father, our Father, which art in heaven, hallowed to be thy name, thy kingdom come, thy will be done in earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread and forgive us trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil for thine is the kingdom, the power and the glory, for ever and ever, Amen. Our reading is from John, Chapter Fifteen. Jesus said I love you just as the Father loves me, remain in my love. If you obey my command you will o remain in my love in the same way that I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love. I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. This is my command, love one another just as I love you. The greatest love a man can have for his friends is to give his life for them and you are my friends, if you do what I command. I do not call you servants any longer because a servant does not know what his master is doing. Instead I call you friends because I have told you everything I heard from my Father. You did not choose me, I chose you and appointed you to go and bear much fruit, the kind of fruit that endures and the Father will give you whatever you ask of him in my name. This then is what I command you, love one another. I'm Horace and I bring you greetings today from the Hundredth Bomb Group Association in the United States and particularly to the Hundredth Bomb Group Association in the United Kingdom with which many of you are associated. The two hour speech that I was going to make I, I cut down because of the weather so I think even though the sun is out, I'll continue with the abbreviated version of it. Er I, I do bring you greetings, not only from the Association, but from the many of us who served here during World War Two. Er I myself and many others were here for two and a half years and I submit to you that this is a considerable portion of one's adult lifetime and consequently, the experiences of the last three days have been very meaningful and very moving to those of us who did spend such a portion of our lives here in this place. Er as I think about all of us today, it seems to me that the, that that which endures is human relationships. The instruments of war, the machinery that was necessary to prosecute what I think was, if any war could be just, a truly just war, these implements and machines are tremendously important but they are passing, they are transitory. The things that endure and that matter, I am convinced, are the human relationships and I think as I represent the, the group here today I, I am joined by six other people with associations with the group. Bob and Florence and er John and Rose and Stan and Doreen and the three of them and I are, are just very happy to be here and together to represent the Hundredth Group and what remains of it in the United States. So I think today as we dedicate this magnificently restored control tower and memento to the Hundredth Group that we think about three groups of people. Those who served here and went back to continue to live and serve at home which we represent. Er those known to so many of us who gave their lives here from this base and finally er in honour of those who have done such a tremendous and magnificent job in the restoration of this nerve centre of, of the Hundredth Group and, and as we dedicate this plaque and this building today, we remember, before God and before one another, all of these people who have had a part in what we do here today. As I unveil this plaque to the glory of God and in memory of all those who served in the Hundredth Bomb Group in the cause of freedom from this airfield. In the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, we dedicate this memorial plaque to the glory of God and to the memory of the men of the Hundredth Bomb Group who served in the cause of freedom and through, from this airfield, may we pray. Now Lord we ask that the peace that you promise that passes our understanding will keep our hearts and minds in the knowledge and love of God and in its Son, your Son, our Saviour Jesus Christ and we ask for the blessing of you, of the Father upon us, as we continue to serve in your name. Amen . I would just like to say a few, a few things to er especially to Rupert and Mr David er without their help and cooperation we would never have had such er, er nev would never have started this project erm we thank you very much. I'd also like to thank Colonel , Colonel for coming today from er Mildenhall in Lakenheath and also thanks to the Reverend for being here as well. Thank you very much. I'm, I'm personally delighted to be here er it's almost er like er page out of the first chapter of er I think the should be expressed to those of you here and any who are missing er for undertaking this magnificent project. There's nothing that we can say or do here to add the distinction, to add distinction er to what was done here forty years ago. Er certainly the, the people who worked and flew from this field er gather distinction, honour and glory unto themselves for their er . But what you're doing here I think it is er, er an example of the partnership, a partnership that goes back for many years, certainly during World War Two and I think er it is still strong and er holds firm today the partnership between the United States and Great Britain. Once again, thank you for being invited and thank the people who have the foresight and er tremendous energy to undertake this project. Thank you. I hope all of you know or have met this good friend of the Hundred I'm sure that most of you have and he has with him today a guest from Germany, Herr and his charming daughter er and Mr was a member of the and has provided invaluable information here, who as you know is doing a, a comprehensive book on the monster mission and in commemoration of what we have done today, we have a letter addressed to er the Hundredth Bomb Group Memorial Association U K, from the Most Reverend Doctor the Bishop of Munster which I would like to read to you. Dear ladies and gentlemen, on the occasion of the dedication of the museum and memorial to the fallen service men of the Second World War, both the German and the Allied Forces, here at the former control tower of the airbase in England, I send you my warmest and sincere greetings. All nations are scarred from the terrible aftermath of the Second World War. We cannot overcome the past by forgetting the discord and sorrow which war has brought, but by willingness to reconciliate we can ensure peace for the present. So it pleases me, on this day of the dedication, to represent the bond of friendship between our peoples. May the merciful God hold his hand over us so that we are guided in his way and seek for peace which he has prepared for us. With my sincerest blessings, yours Doctor The Bishop of Munster . And a copy of this in the German language will be in the er museum. Thank you very much. This is a continuation of the er story by er while we were at Thorpe Abbots, as usual, a lot of humorous things happened. I remember the time I came out of the engineering shack and walked over to the gas tank er trucks and, which was on, used by hardstand number two. Hardstand number two was so little that we couldn't get an airplane on there so we parked the gas trucks there. There was a small young man there and he was really smiling and real happy. He wanted to show me his new washing machine. He'd acquired a gasoline kicker engine from somewhere with an exhaust that run and he had made during picked up from scraps and stuff and made it, so where he had a tub right on top of this gasoline engine. And he come up and he had some dirty coveralls in there and he was washing them. This was fine. The only thing wrong was he was washing them with a hundred octane gasoline, he had a gasoline engine firing exhaust underneath it and he was parked among all our gas trucks. Needless to say I got a little excited and told him to quietly shut the engine down and if he wanted to wash the coveralls tonight in gasoline to go about a hundred and fifty yards over there. But I never wanted to see that gasoline engine washer on this hardstand again with the gas trucks parked around it. Another incident happened up, up on hardstand number thirteen. This was Sergeant . Usually it was cold working on the aeroplane and in, so each tank had a little stove in it. There was no coke, so we got these old two-piece army stones, army stoves and by putting a brick or two inside it, we had a five gallon bucketful of mixture of engine oil and hundred octane. Sometimes it was pure hundred octane with a gas line coming into the tent with a little valve on it. We don't, we turned the valve off, we take a bunch of newspapers and put it on top of the bricks, then we light the newspaper, then we go back and turn the valve on and let this hundred octane mixture of oil drip on the bricks and it would burn. Well after a while the bricks got hot enough that you could just adjust the valve to where the stove would get almost cherry red and it was a very nice fire. It was a good supply of used engine oil and hundred octane available, so we did it. Well it seemed like the morning of everybody was using it, they use them to cook. I know, I, that and I never said anything about it, but there was many a pheasant which got too close to a tent, wound up in the pot and was cooked by these fellas on these stoves. The same with the potatoes. Some of the local fellas would trade cigarettes to the local farmers for eggs to fry and a lot of other stuff. Well anyway getting back to on hardstand number thirteen, it seemed as if he was filling his, it ran out of supplies, so he was filling his supply tank and one of the flight crew of the airplane bumped into him so he spilled this mixture of gasoline and oil over the stove and naturally the tent caught on fire. Well it so happened that two of the aircrewmen were burnt enough, not real serious, but burned enough that they had to use the ground spare from another squadron, they couldn't go on the mission. Well within two hours after the mission took off there was an edict come down from group, no more stoves in the tents. Period. No, no ifs, ands or buts. Needless to say Sergeant was not in very good, held in any esteem at all by the remainder of the crew chiefs . In fact he was subject to a lot of dirty digs, cussings and anything else they could get away with . Er like I said about the, I named all the crew chiefs that were master sergeant at, from hardstand one to thirteen. We had at least seven other buck sergeants and maybe a staff sergeant crewing airplanes which had been returned to us two or three month after the deal and at times we had as high as twenty aircraft in the squadron, that according to the er roster that you were only supposed to have twelve, but er nobody seemed to say anything about it and we didn't get any extra men, but there was at least six or seven men doing the work of master sergeants getting paid for, getting buck sergeant and staff sergeant pay for which I'm very grateful. They did a, they did as good a job as the crew chiefs. In our squadron was a man I call an elderly because at the time he was about forty to forty five years old and we were all a bunch of kids. His name was . He was a real sharp, well-built man but he was a good painter. He was responsible for all the painting that was done on our aircraft and er he did a real good job on it. Somewhere they've got a, there's a picture of him and I've named him out of one of the photos I brought over. There was another man by the name of . He was a welder that used to help us make up er special tools and things to break down tyres with and the little four-wheeled trailer with it, B-Seventeen wheels on it that Billy has in was made by him. When we came overseas that metal trailer that we had had heavy wheels on it. As soon as you got that thing off of the runway or a hard surface, it sunk without any kind of a, in the English mud. Excuse the pun but that's what it was. It would sink and we'd have a hell of a time getting out. So I would, I and a couple of the fellas went to pull them to the aeroplane graveyard. We brought back four tail wheel struts complete with the tyres and axles and everything else on them and I got to weld this high-strength steel onto that carbon steel that was on the, the wheel and we wound up with a nice trailer with four B-Seventeen tail wheels on it. This could go across the mud and it easily. The main job of this trailer was to haul parts back and forth. On days when wing inspection would come around and check our tech supplier for spare parts, we would load this trailer with all the illegal spare parts we weren't supposed to have, cos they, like the couple of it might call it for three starters and we had six, seven or eight. They called for so many generator, we had double of them. We'd leave just what the couple had called for. The excess starters, generators, regulators and anything else that we weren't supposed to have was put on this trailer, was tied neatly to the canvas, we put a man on the tractor and all day long he drove around the perimeter strip with it. When the inspectors left, we'd call him in and we'd put the stuff back in the shelf. We also stored a lot of stuff in Billy 's barn. That was too big to put on the, on er the thing. Tech Sergeant was a Supply Sergeant and he was responsible for getting us spark plugs and other spare parts. Well he was as good as they come, as far as I was concerned, because if it could be had, swiped, stolen, midnight requisition or just purely ordered from some place, when we needed it we got it. He was, he was really good about that . We lost one man from the ground crew during the whole time we were overseas. The fella's name was a Corporal and he was killed in a train wreck at Ipswich while he was going on leave going to London. But that was the only man from our ground crew that we lost. For a short time he was buried at Cambridge at the Military Cemetery, but since then I've checked and he has been sent, his body sent back home. And that's about Right then Leona er when did you move to the flats? December eighty one. And erm where did you move from? I was near at the time, with Tiffany, in Mansfield. . And before that? Before that I was erm living with some fr friends in Liverpool. And before that I was m back in Nottingham. Where did you originate from? Nottingham. Where about? Edge Lane estate. It's in between Sherwood and Bestwood. Did you live there with your parents? Mm. Was it, did you have any er any brothers or sisters? I've got I've got two brothers and one sister. Do they live in Nottingham? My sister lives in Edinburgh, me two brothers live in Nottingham. Do they live in the flats? No. Ted used to. He used to live on the erm in the , but he doesn't any more. When did he move out? Ooh. About eighteen month ago. Might be more, yeah about eighteen month ago. Was that to move to another council house? No, bought his own house. Erm compared to other places you've lived in erm how does this flat stand up to the comparison? Well, I mainly, up until, when I started to live on my own, I mainly lived in bed and breakfasts, or shared houses, so this is one of the better sort. Really. . It's really my ow first very own place of my own. Do you like it? No. I never have liked it. Why not? Well for a start half of them, the shape of them isn't very conven it's not very good for ar arranging things. And er you can't really do much because of the stone walls and there's too much window and too much noise, and you get quite a few insects in them, and they're just generally not very nice at all. In fact there's only two good points about them and that's you've always got hot water, and your h heating, you're always warm. That's the only two good points about them. You say you had, the shape of the rooms,what sort Mhm. Well I mean l l look at this shape, I mean it's a like an L shape, it's erm very unpractical . I mean having to come upstairs before you even get into the house isn't very good either, cos I mean with kids you've got to carry the pushchairs up and everything and carry kids up and carry all your shopping up, it's not, it's not very practical having them upstairs. Erm,y y you say the heating's alright? Mm. Erm I mean does it deliver enough heat all the time? Most of the time, yeah, I mean, they're usually very good. I've only had ever about two complaints in four and a half years, and that's not very bad, that's only because the filter needed cleaning, mostly. What about your hot water? Do you get that? Is that Mhm. part of it? Oh yeah. It's always there, I mean erm that's one of the advantages you can have a bath every day. That's something I'll miss when I move, cos paying for it, you don't, well I know you pay for it here, but it's all in and Oi! Er now why did you actually move to the flats? Cos it was the only, it was either here or the Balloon Woods, cos I was er I was given an emergency placing, it was either here or Balloon Woods, and at the time I didn't fancy Balloon Woods, but I wish I'd taken it now, I'd be, I'd have my own place by Erm so, you, you were on emergency, is that because you're a single parent? Mm, yeah. Er you say there was a choice between this and Balloon Woods, why did you actually choose ? Well, cos it was in town, it was nearer to shops, and erm I'd heard that keeping Balloon Woods' flats warm was costing people a hell of a lot of money. Cos it was in with the electric bills, and I didn't want that, and that was one of the advantages that made me decide to have here, cos I knew that the heating was in with the rent. Erm, so did you have any friends when on the estate at first? Not at the time, no, but I'm, I knew people that were on here, from other places you know, so I met other people, so How do you find it, erm er socializing with people? You can't really around here, cos everybody's suspicious of everybody else. And er as I say, the only people I know on here now, are people that I've met actually off here. Or through people that I knew before. You say people are suspicious of each other wh wh what do you mean by that? Well, I mean erm I dunno really, you sort of get the feeling that they're suspicious, cos I mean there's so many things go on here, that they're not sure erm about you, I mean if somebody else doesn't know you, then they're not sure about you. So d what sort of things go on in the flats? Well booze erm drugs, prostitution, that sort of thing. And d d th th do they actually go on, or is it, sort of exaggerated? It's not exaggerated. It does go on. Er, do you think it gives a particularly bad name? Oh yes, it definitely does. Er did you know about this when you were offered the flat? Did you know it had Oh yeah, oh yeah. I knew about it. But it didn't bother No, cos I knew I wouldn't associate with erm erm people and I wouldn't get into it. I mean, I'm not messing against what anybody else does, and I wouldn't try and interfere with what anybody else does, but I wouldn't get involved with them. Right Leona, can you, can you just go over s the places you lived in before you actually moved to the flat? Well I've lived in quite a few places, I've, I say, before I came here, I was at mother and baby Home, and before that I was living with friends in Liverpool, and before that I was in Nottingham at a bed and breakfast place, lodgings, and er Were they, was that through the council? No it wasn't. No. And then erm, before that I got, I was living with friends again, in Nottingham. And then erm I was at home for a while, and then I was living with friends in Birmingham, and in, in between time I've been to Leeds and London. Not for very long though, but erm most of the time I spent away living in Birmingham. And you say you've never lived anywhere sort of similar to the flats? You've not lived No. in . So they've, have they been terraced or something like that? Yeah, one, I shared a house in er , in Forest Fields, Where, where's that? Forest Fields. Yeah. I shared a house there. And erm, so I haven't really had a place of my own until I got this one, and it's usually lodgings or sharing. Yeah. Now erm there are quite a few sort of single parents on the, the flats, now erm are there any problems that you've had which possibly other people have had, with living in the flats? Any er particularly bad points that make it difficult for you? Well, erm I I have been accosted a few times to do a few things, you know erm like I say, prostitution, they think probably because you're on your own, everybody else, because one, say one person in the block is one, then you are one as well, you know. You're tarred with the same brush. And erm ? Plus I have had, I have been m mugged while I have been out. I had my purse pinched, that wasn't very good. Erm and you do feel shut in at nights when you're on your own. Erm which isn't any help at all, it shows the people they're on their own anyway, cos you feel more lonely that way. You get more lonely, which doesn't help in here, and I mean say, I mean the view isn't very n this view is very drab, and if you'd got something to look at it wouldn't wouldn't matter so much, but erm Not re Okay. Yeah, and it's, it's very lonely in here if you don't really know people. Erm especially now that everybody's moving away and most of the people you know have probably gone, or going, or they probably won't be moving near you any more. Did y you said that you had your purse stolen, did someone actually break into the flat? No, I was walking up the ramps and it was ripped out of my hand actually. I, cos I had the strap on my arm, it was pulled off that. Did you actually, did you go to the police about it? Yeah. Did they do anything? No. What could they do? You know, it happens quite a few times, doesn't it? Erm so y you never got it back, or anything? No. So are y I don't think we actually established, are, are you erm are you unemployed? Yeah. So you're on Supplementary? Yeah. Erm, have you had any jobs in the past, have you worked in the past? , I was seventeen, I worked at the Flying Horse. It's a pub isn't it? Yeah, it's a pub cum hotel, it's a hotel thing. Erm how'd you find it living on the money get on Social Security? It's difficult, but you can manage. I mean anyone who says they can't manage on what they get, er they can't feed the kids on what they get, probably go in the pubs five or si six nights a week, and smoke too much and but erm I mean these never go without a meal or anything like that. I mean we're no when we have s like egg and chips, it's cos we want to, not because we've got to. You know? I mean do you manage to keep s sort of quite a good diet? Or do y Oh yeah. I mean every Sunday, we have a, a Sunday dinner, I mean it's usually chicken, cos it's the cheapest one there is, but I mean we still have a Sunday dinner, we have fresh veg and everything. I mean there's not many, probably not many families round here that could say that. Do you actually shop locally then? Yeah. And erm how, how do you, do you do your shopping, do you do it once every fortnight, or do you ? No, I er do it as I need it actually. I mean I get a few things in every week that, you know that you need, that you know er I go out on Monday and get everything else for the week like washing powder, and that sort of thing but u for food, I just get it every day. Do you go into the centre much? About once a week. What's that, is that for shop food and things? No, just to go out, cos I'm wanting just to go out on a Monday with her, cos she doesn't have nursery on a Monday, Tiffany. So we go out and have a meal out. I mean I can have, even afford meals out. So do you budget quite tightly then? Mhm. I mean even when I smoked I did. I mean I, I could s I could still get what I needed. Do you think a lot of people do that, or do you think you're particularly sort of I don't know, people l I'm of them say they can't afford to pay the kids, and get the food for the kids, and they'll have to give them chips a couple of, every day of the week or whatever, but th there's no need for that. I mean if, if people smoke too much, I mean they should put the kids before the c the cigarettes, and erm people I have heard say that, I've seen in the pub three or four nights a week. If they can afford to go there, then why don't they, you know, if you have two pints in there I mean it's, it's a meal really, cos I, I could give these kids a meal for about a one pound, one pound fifty. And that's, that's feeding us. Do, do you go out to the pub much yourself? No. I don't. so you don't go out for drinks,? No, I mean, last time I went out would be erm well I've been out in the afternoon a few times, with my boyfriend, but, the last time I went out in the evening would be about eighteen month ago. And it doesn't bother me cos I put their, them first. D so I mean what do you find to do, I mean, how do you spend your time? Oh, me and my boyfriend play cards, and watch telly, and that sort of thing. Play dominoes. Right, so you sort of er find activities that you can actually Yeah, do in the house. Yeah. Do together. Er y do you find it difficult to find people to look after the children, or is it just that you, you wouldn't want to go out? No, I could get a baby-sitter, it's just that I don't want to go out. I mean my, my money is erm Mm. you know, the money is put towards their f food and things, rather than giving it to somebody else . Er where, where do the erm children go in the day time? Do they go to a play er s school? Well, erm, Adrian goes on a Mondays and Tuesdays to nursery, and on a Wednesdays and Fridays to his dad, and Tiffany goes on a Tuesday and Thursday and Friday to nursery. Which nursery's that? . How did you get the n th the them into that? Well she need needed it for erm her speech, and then when he came along, he just nearly automatically got one because everybody got one in really. Well, not automatically, but they thought it would be a good idea to have him in. To What keep an eye on him, see if his speech was too slow in talking. Erm w why didn't you send them to the ones on the fla on the flats? I couldn't get them in there. Was it full? Mhm. I mean there's not really one in the flats that is suitable really. Wh wh what do you mean, what's I mean, they need a nursery not a playgroup, there's a difference. I see. Erm d d do your children have, have many friends on the flats? Do they mix with the children in the flats? No, no. She's got one friend over there, erm on , but not really. Not really, no. Do you let them out to play No. Why's that? Because you think they're too young or what? I don't erm, yeah, I do think they're too young to be out here, because er you can't keep an eye on them. Especially nowadays, with things going, I mean I'm not saying really round here like that, but you never know do you? Right, now you've said where you've, where you've lived before and how you got here erm now you're on the phasing aren't you? Er Yeah, in fact I've got a, I've been allocated a place, but it's not ready for me yet. Yeah. So you're, you're, you're pha I mean phase four right? Phase four, yeah. Right. Now,wh wh where did you put your name down to go? Bilborough, Sherwood or Woollaton. As I say, I've got a house in Woollaton, but it's not ready yet. They're doing it up, or doing something to it. What, why did you decide to go to those areas? Well, Bilborough, my mother lives at Bilborough, I thought it'd be nice to be near her, my dad lives up Sherwood, and I used to, I used to live up Sherwood, it's a good place and got a good school. And I think Woollaton speaks for itself, I mean it's don't you ? Erm so what's, what's the place like that you got? Three-bedroomed house, front and back garden. And I haven't, as I say I haven't seen it yet, but erm I've had a look at it but not actually been inside it, because they're doing, still doing it up. And is it the sort of place you were looking for? Mhm. Three bedroom and everything. Yeah. Erm will you be glad to move out of the flats? Definitely. Definitely. Will there be anything you miss about them? As I say, only the heating and the hot water. That I must technically pay for it. Do you think you'll be able to ma That is the only thing. Do you think you'll be able to manage with the bills and that? Yeah. Right then. Now, you worked for the erm the tenants' action group, didn't you for a time? Yeah. . How wh when was that? Erm about nineteen eighty two to three, it'd be. Wh what, what was actually going on at the tenants' group then? A a at the time, they were trying to get this place looked at and surveyed, and everything to get it, you know to see what they could do about it, get it closed down, but er they hadn't got that far with that then. Erm they hadn't got a survey going, they'd got coming round to have a look at it, and they'd got the environmental health from London to have a survey of it, and er everything. Y you were secretary weren't you? Yes. Erm what, what was the feeling that came over to you from the tenants' group at the time? Did it feel like it was a well-organized group, or did it feel ? Well a a a at the time, they'd just changed over from the erm Tenants' Development Association, to the Tenants' Action Group, so it was a bit disorganized to begin with, cos we were still sorting out the, everything from what they'd left over and things, so, but once we'd got that all so once they'd got that all sorted out, yeah, it was. Erm, did you think it reflected the views of the tenants? Most of them, yeah. Most of them. About ninety percent of them. And did you have anything to do with the Development Association? No I didn't. . So y y you wouldn't know about the ins and outs of what went on when they ? No. Mhm. Erm erm so y you were, you were with the tenants' erm association, eighty two eighty three? Mm. Erm, have you had anything to do with them since? Have you No, not really, no. Do, have you, do you go to the meetings ? No. Is that, what, cos you know you're moving out now? Mm. . Erm I just want to go back and talk about a few things we just touched on earlier. Er now you were saying about crime in the area. Erm have y you had your, your purse stolen? Mm. Have, have you ever had trouble with kerb crawlers or anything like that? Well a couple of times. But er maybe once or twice, as I say I usually go out with my kids, and they don't usually stop you. look at me but otherwise, you know, they don't usually stop you if you've got a kid with you. And can you does it, I mean obviously it bothers you, but I mean Well I just tell them to get lost in not so polite words . So what, what do you actually think about the er the prostitutes, and ? Well, I mean er I've got nothing against them. I mean, in fact I, I'm one of the people that believe that in, in a way it should be, it should be legalized. I think it should be legalized. But erm, it's the kerb crawlers, I mean I've always thought that if it wasn't for prostitutes, there's going to be a hell of a lot more rapes around, so Mm. Mm. So just keeping on the same sort of subject, of sex, drugs and , Yeah. violence, erm the other people I've spoken to have mentioned blues parties, now d have you ever had? Yeah, I've had blues parties next door. Could you just t tell me about what actually happened? Well it wasn't too bad actually, cos when I went upstairs and shut every door and I wouldn't, didn't really hear anything. next door didn't really bother me, cos once I'd shut the door, shut the doors, it was, there was hardly any noise, but then erm the guy that had got the place, he wasn't living there, lent it out to somebody else, blues, and they moved them u upstairs as well. And erm I wasn't actually in the bedroom, and that did bother me. I had one night of that, and when he came round in the morning, I told him. I mean luckily enough, I went to junior school with him. I mean if I hadn't have known him, then there's no way I could have talked to him about it. I mean I says, look I says, I'm not, I'm not saying you can't have your parties or whatever, I says but I says not in the bedrooms. I says, er that that is going a bit too far, I think. Erm how loud were they? I mean did they keep you awake? Very loud that night, very loud. I say, the other night, I say it didn't really bother me, but like I'm a heavy sleeper anyway. But I could just not get to sleep that night, and she was only a baby at the time, she couldn't sleep. Er what, what, what time did they start and finish, did the blues parties? Erm, about one o'clock, and finished about half past six, seven. Mm do you get any trouble from the people coming out of the parties, or going in, did they? No, the door knocked once or twice, but I mean that, that didn't bother me, so I was asleep m most of the time. Erm er is, is that the only experience you've had with blues parties? Mm. Mm right now, now you mention that you phoned the police about when you had your purse stolen, erm are y have, what do you think of the police presence around the flats? I mean is it helpful, or, or what? Non-existent. And if it is, I mean they don't do much. Erm Have you seen policemen patrolling the flats? Oh yeah, I've seen them. I've seen them, but I mean if, if they saw anything, I think they'd just turn a blind eye to most of it. Mm. Have, have you seen anything like that happen, or is ? Well I don't know how true it is but I have heard from somebody I know, whose husband was a a plumber, and he came to unplug a toilet at the erm Cricket Players when it closed down, he had to unplug it. And he found a hell of a lot of flesh down the toilet, human flesh. And he said from the looks of it there must have been you know sort of dead, whatever it was, and there was a couple of fingers and a couple of toes, right? But erm police went to visit him again, and says erm you know that's it, you know, you won't, won't, you won't even be needed to make a statement about where you found it, which he thought was a bit funny. I mean whether they hushed it up or not I don't know. But I mean I say, I don't know how true that is, I mean I only heard that through somebody else. I see. Er talking about er plumbers and er people like that, have erm have, how are you finding getti getting things repaired in the flat? Well I had to, I had to wait for about eight months or was it s six months to get one of my lights fixed but for er other things they were quite quick actually. Is that by using the Housing Office on the flat? Yeah. Are they very helpful there? Mm. Yes. I found them so. Do you think it helps them being up with the ? Oh yeah. Er I think it does, I think they should have one, one of those sort of places in every not in every complex, but in every estate. D do you think your, your amenity-wise er the flats like they they've got the housing, and the clubs and the playgroup and stuff like that, do you think you're very badly off for that or? No no, amenity-wise, you're okay, but I mean amenities doesn't make up for sort of living standards you've got, does it? S so I mean do you try and u do you use things around the area? Er Not much no. Wh why's that? Because I just don't go out much, that's all. Mm. Do you think is a Shh. particularly friendly place or? No. No. Er what makes you say that? Cos I haven't found it so, that's why. But I mean d do you think the people are more unfriendly around here than they are in other parts of the town? Yeah. Just the people living around here? Did erm Yeah, I think it's b as I say it's because I think people are wary I mean you know, not sure who's who. Er do you find people mix around here very well though? I mean,s I mean there's, it's a multi-racial area. Do you think that people mix well, or is it a, do, do you feel No everybody keeps themselves to themselves, I think which is a shame really, cos erm I think they do that all over the country anyway, most of them, they keep themselves to themselves. Right. Now you're moving to Bilborough, you're moving to Bilborough erm just say in five years time they got rid of the flats erm and they built houses on here on the site, would you move back? No. Shh shh. Erm is that because of the v the area, or because? Well, I'll be settled in, in my own little place by then, I mean I don't want to move back here, plus that fact that I, I wouldn't want to move back here anyway. Tonight, as the lottery bill becomes law in Britain, in America there's growing concern about how lottery companies win contracts worth millions of dollars. But first flying in the face of the worst ever recession in air travel, Virgin Atlantic is doubling its fleet and adding new routes, a high risk strategy. But can Richard Branson land safely? I would put pretty well everything into making sure that er that Virgin Atlantic is here in twenty years' time. Okay I'm off now. Floya flies with Virgin Atlantic, perhaps Europe's best known independent airline. Tonight she's on the flight to New York, although Virgin Atlantic flies to seven international cities and is now the biggest part of the Virgin group. Across the U K this is Virgin twelve fifteen Virgin radio is one of the latest additions. Phil Collins. The megastores, computer games, publishing, and even airships, all trade under the Virgin name. It's become one of the most famous brands in the world. But increasingly it's the airline that fascinates the man who built all this. He's one of Britain's most popular businessmen, Richard Branson. It's completely addictive I think an anybody that gets involved in the airline business will say the same. I think for me I love erm er er er I love a challenge, and er I suspect the fact that before I went into it people said it was erm something which was erm absolutely impossible er er and that the their was no way that one could make a go of it erm made it made it made it perhaps all the more challenging to try to prove them wrong . For the crew this is just another New York flight, but it's been a rough ride for Virgin Atlantic. Having won a libel case against British Airways over the much publicized dirty tricks, it's set to announce losses exceeding fourteen million pounds for nineteen ninety two, and all airlines have been tightening their belts in the recession. Anybody whose ambitious at this point in time is taking a risk, in the last three years the world's airlines have lost between them about ten billion U S dollars. Now at first people thought that was because of the gulf crisis an and the downturn in traffic, but actually it's the economic recession which has cut off demand er and which is lasting much longer than people expected. Drinks courtesy. Thank you First class service at less than first class fares has become something of a slogan for Virgin Atlantic, but that's put it on a collision course with big international airlines, especially British Airways. Virgin wants to make itself less vulnerable, and it thinks it can do so by offering even better service to more passengers flying to more places. Trouble is, competition for passengers has never been so fierce and Virgin is still a tiny airline that's losing money. But Richard Branson is so determined to win he's now betting with his own fortune to put more planes like this one in the sky, it could be his biggest gamble yet. The picture looks very different from Virgin's early days in the record business. In nineteen seventy Richard Branson was making waves as a young businessman, even then he had aspirations to take on the giants. Virgin Records is t starting up new groups who ac you know have been scorned by some of the big companies. He took a risk with the sex pistols, and landed up in court. Then came the city, Branson floated Virgin but soon went private again. With every new stunt his boyish enthusiasm hyped the company's name. And of course his own, then, nearly ten years ago Virgin bought its first plane. As money from Boy George and Culture Club poured in the airline really took off. And then last year Branson sold the music business to Thorn E M I for five hundred and sixty million pounds so he could focus on the airline, which was losing money. Well obviously one would like to make money rather than lose money erm I mean there's the there are quite a few factors why erm Virgin er lost money last year er first of all you know we had er the very well publicized er dirty tricks campaign being waged against us. Er we believe that cost us many many millions of pounds, secondly, there was the worst recession that the airline industry has had, thirdly, has been er a you know we're a growing company, we're investing. We built this model and asked professor John , an airline specialist, to explain Virgin's commercial problem. Running an airline is an expensive business at the best of times, during a recession it can be a way of using up money really quite quickly, now Virgin's particular problem was that they began this recession with relatively little in the way of capital and reserves, only about thirty six million in nineteen ninety one. So what would have happened last year when they lost over fourteen million pounds? Well that has to come out of their capital and as you can see it takes out quite a large chunk. How bad is that? Well that can be very serious. If you lose the same amount of money for a second year you're down to a position where one small slip would take the business into insolvency. So what can Virgin do to turn this round and start trading profitably? Well what most airlines have done has been to try and trim back their scale of operations, but what Virgin are doing is using Richard Branson's personal money to try and expand out of trouble. We can reveal he plans to invest about a hundred and fifteen million of his own money without going to the bank, much of it's for planes, staff and facilities, but we discovered he's just used forty five million to buy out Saboo Saison the airline's Japanese shareholder. We have erm er just bought Saboo Saison out so er the twenty percent share holding they had in the airline we've now bought back in-house. So does this mean you actually want to be in control of it yourself er or not? I think for the time being I I'd I'd I'd I'd I'd I think that it makes sense to be fully in control of it, I think that I you know have great faith in Virgin Atlantic, erm I think that it erm it's got a great future, erm but erm er I don't think it would be that easy to to erm you know to to I don't think we'd have partners falling over themselves to get into the airline business in in in this recession. This may look like drinks for the passengers, but it's actually part of Virgin Atlantic's expansion plan. Great, lovely Lisa, if you'd just like to stop it there, that was lovely. Can you remember when we did the classroom training. Mm. Which passenger would you normally serve first? The window seat. And today what should you have done? Well that's right These trainee hostesses our among nearly five hundred new recruits being taken on for flights to up to eight additional cities starting in the new year. You're all looking very smart. . Celebrations as the new recruits graduate, some of them will be flying the new non-stop service between London and Hong Kong, which had been a duopoly for British Airways and Cathay Pacific. with Steeros we're both going to Miami and back Oh, which one? I quite like it. Experience suggests that fares to Hong Kong will fall once Virgin arrives, the danger is that in flying to new places Virgin may reduce the money in it for everybody. Virgin will not pull it off if they add too much capacity in too many routes in a very short period of time, because filling capacity is becoming increasingly difficult. To fill the seats you have to drop the fares, there's a price war going on, especially in the markets that Virgin's involved in, price wars mean very low fares, fares which in many cases will not cover the cost of flying the aeroplane. What would you say to the criticism that by opening up new routes you simply add to the problem of over capacity, and so there's less money for everyone? I don't think the consumer would ev say that and I think sometimes one forgets er people forget the consumer I mean the erm er but obviously by us going onto the Hong Kong route we are going to reduce British Airways and Cathay Pacific's profits on that route considerably, we we think that because our costs are considerably less than British Airways, and I suspect considerably less than Cathay Pacific, that the player that er could be around in thirty or forty years' time is Virgin Atlantic. To open up new routes Virgin needs more planes, and it's come here to Airbus, in the South of France for some of them. Airbus is building four A Three Forties, like this, to fly on Virgin's long distance routes, in fact this one will soon be off to Hong Kong. Virgin may only be a small airline, but so far this year it's Airbus's biggest customer, that's because many bigger airlines struggling in a tough market either can't afford new planes or are cancelling their orders. Virgin says that by expanding aggressively and bucking the trend it's been able to get some really hard bargains. Ah, wonderful. Richard Branson has come Magnificent to see his new planes for the first Thank you very much time very first delivery. Yeah, were going to be using the first plane on Hong Kong on February the first It'll cost Virgin an estimated five million pounds a year to lease each new plane, with six on order then the others including two from Boeing, that's over thirty million. Urgh. And then there are other things to pay for like new in-flight gambling systems. Seventeen, this isn't I'm not going to No good I'm not playing with this thing any more . Virgin argues its new planes What else do you have? are much cheaper to fly but simply having more of them will push up costs so it'll need about twice as many passengers. Well we know that they plan to have fourteen planes in operation by nineteen ninety six and I reckon that will raise their cost of operations to something over six hundred million pounds. And how many passengers do they need to make that kind of money? Well to make that sort of revenue they will actually need to fly rather more than two million passengers a year, and in the present state of the world aviation market I reckon that's quite a tall order, in fact if they fell short of it by five percent in a particular year that would be capable of using up the kind of capital and reserves which we've been talking about. Well this looks fine Alan, how about the summary? Well The new survey for travel group O A G on what business passengers want. Whilst they only fill a tenth of seats they bring in a lot more income, in Virgin's case almost half. Ian , formerly Virgin Atlantic's marketing manager, says business passengers do value good service, but increasingly cost matters too. We discovered that the significance of value for money is creeping up the scale, particularly for the corporate buyer, the person in a company that's in charge of buying travel services. They are becoming increasingly more important as they want to er and try to impose policy on travellers, and therefore price is becoming much more of an issue with them. This man is a corporate travel buyer, the sort of customer that Virgin Atlantic most needs. His name Charles , his job director of the city bank Merrel-Lynch, his task to decide which airline staff here can fly, his annual budget for this is six million pounds. Okay pilot, ready for take off. With special services like this bike to airport escort Virgin hopes to tempt big wheels to send business travellers onto its flights. Such gimmicks have helped to make Virgin's upper class service tempting to business passengers, but Virgin knows the real business is done by men like this, and they're not just looking at service but also cost. Hello. Hello. Good afternoon. Good afternoon. A lot of companies actually er reviewed there there policies, and have down graded. We, for instance use mid- class on Virgin as well as upper class for some er levels of staff and departments. Prices are coming down because discounts are being raised, and it's got very keen in the market place. So to stay in the frame is Virgin going to have to get in there and Yes they are indeed, there going to have to compete on price as well as on service and value added. Clearly corporate buying habits matter to Richard Branson. Morning all. Everybody at his house for lunch is a corporate travel buyer, he has lots of these lunches. Branson wants feedback from people like these. The erm crucial questions I'd like to ask is that of cost. He assures them Virgin Atlantic can and does compete on cost as well as service, but he claims British Airways isn't playing fair and has complained to the European commission that B A is offering anti-competitive deals Virgin claims it's losing business as a result. If they can go around, for instance, and pick off all our key accounts and use their dominant route structure to effectively take all our principle clients away er we won't have any anybody flying on our planes, so er so we've got to strike quickly, erm you know relatively soon after they started this new attack to make sure that it erm it er it doesn't get doesn't get out of control. Sir Colin , British Airways chairman, rejects accusations of foul play. Thank you very much. What we are doing is what is being done er in the market generally there is nothing unique about British Airways position in this regard, in the event the European commission er should find against er our interest in this respect er they are in effect going to find against the interest er of the er European airlines as a whole, and that would be very detrimental to the interest of European business and travellers. Most corporate buyers we spoke to agreed that B A's doing deals much like those from other airlines, indeed Merrel-Lynch said they'd just dropped B A having got a better deal elsewhere. I think British Airways offer a fair deal erm but it's not necessarily the largest deal, they invest a lot in in their service and what they do, and I think erm Virgin do offer generous deals. Right so is there anything unfair in your view about the kind of deal British Airways is offering? Erm in my experience erm I don't think so. This flight simulator, Virgin's lofty lady, is part of another row with B A which is just as important in the battle for business passengers. Inside, Virgin's pilots are landing on runway twenty seven at Heathrow, in the simulator they can take off and land as often as they like at this the world's busiest airport, but in real life Virgin says it has to fight for slots to take off and land at the times to suit business travellers, it blames B A. B A says it doesn't allocate slots or monopolize Heathrow Airport. B A er had a very clear dominance at Heathrow, erm it was a dominance that erm has effectively been erm given to them on a plate by the government, or successive governments over the last fifty years, erm and which in effect saw off you know, Laker, B Cal, Dan Air, Air Europe, erm and er and er and er it's it's them having that dominance and then being able to erm er effectively misuse that dominance by er by using the dom the dominance on say the routes which say Virgin Atlantic don't fly to er actually damage Virgin on on on the routes that erm that we do fly. Virgin's determined to fight, on Thursday it began legal action here in the United States. Virgin's filed this complaint against British Airways here in the federal court of New York. The central allegation in what's certain to be a bitterly contested case, is that B A has a monopoly based on its dominance of Heathrow, which it's abusing in a bid to force Virgin out of the market for transatlantic travel. In establishing this Virgin finally hopes to win compensation for the dirty tricks affair and damages awarded here could easily run to one billion dollars. In bringing its fight to the streets of New York, Virgin also hope to win an injunction restraining B A. B A say there's no basis for the claim. It all hinges on B A's share of slots at Heathrow which is about forty percent. The complaint is really a litany of er a whole host of the old grievances there that we have heard several times er before and we will be dealing with the matter in the proper place through our U S council in the U S courts, in terms of er suggestions that it is that it surrounds the question er of monopoly we certainly er do not accept that thirty eight percent of slots at Heathrow in any way constitutes a monopoly it certainly does not. According to anti-trust lawyers, independent of both sides, most successful anti-trust cases involve market shares of over sixty five percent, Irving Sher who recently acted in another aviation anti-trust case says they often last three to five years and cost millions dollars. And this case looks tough. It would seem from what you've told me that the market share is on the low side of a monopolization case and that kind of case to begin with is always a complicated and long drawn out case. How sure can Virgin Atlantic be of winning this case do you think? I don't think they can be extremely confident if there basing it on a forty percent market share. So with a fight on two fronts, in the market place and the courts, what are Virgin's chances of success? It's certainly a tall order to win both courts and market battles and we have to recognize that the background is one in which number two scheduled airlines in the U K have not been successful, look at British Caledonian, look at Air Europe, look at Dan Air. So how do you rate their chances? Well it might be that this turns out to be an extremely successful gamble, and Branson has expanded Virgin into a world recovery, or it may be that this airline runs into more serious financial difficulties in the middle of the decade, and it either contracts or it sells out to either an American or a continental European carrier. Branson's already ruled out bank loans, so if there is serious need in future will other Virgin companies fund the airline? No, fortunately the other companies are stand alone companies erm making erm you know making their own way, and they don't have to fear erm Richard coming and stripping them of their hard earned earnings to put into the airline erm because erm you know because fortunately we've got resources elsewhere to look after the airline and see its development through. It's here in the Channel Islands that most of Richard Branson's money is held. It may seem curious given Virgin's talent for publicity that the full details of its financial affairs and ownership are actually intensely private. St Peterport here in Guernsey is one of the offshore tax havens through which Richard Branson and his family control most of Virgin's shares. Many of them are held through trusts with names like Jupiter, Venus, and Mars, registered here at Morgan-Grenfell. It's hard to tell how much money's in these trusts because they're not open for public scrutiny, but they may indeed be the main source of funding to expand the airline. Our research suggests that after the sale of the music business to Thorn, the trusts would have got about four hundred and fifty million pounds, even after paying off debts and setting aside money for the initial expansion of Virgin Atlantic, that would still leave about two hundred and fifty million. That sounds a lot of money, but it's not difficult to spend it on an airline. Neither Branson nor Virgin Atlantic as a private company, have to make such matters public. Using offshore trusts like this is entirely legal, it also frees up extra money, and that may be needed in future. I would have had to pay tax unless I'd set up trusts, er by setting up trusts I could then effectively delay paying the tax er use that money to invest in new companies. You've told me that you're putting in about a hundred million pounds for this initial expansion, is that the limit? I suspect that erm er that erm er a sane person should say, Yes definitely that's the limit. erm but er I don't live my life erm er just with a profit motive in everything I do. As I said at the beginning I love a challenge and I would put pretty well everything into making sure that Virgin Atlantic is here in twenty years' time. But the future of this airline could be decided much sooner than that, and with it the levels of service and fares we can all expect on long haul flights. In the end it may all depend on the depth of Richard Branson's pocket, in moments of nostalgia even he may wonder if he sold the wrong business. With annual sales worth four billion pounds, the British lottery is expected to be the biggest in the world. As lobbying becomes fierce for lottery licenses here, across the Atlantic how companies win contracts is under investigation. Saturday night is lottery night here in the streets of Dublin, where Ireland's game of chance is engrained on the culture. Grab a hold of that please, and give it a good hard tug.. Everyone's hoping for that dream ticket, and tonight there's a big win. Five, four, three, two, one, thirteen thousand pounds.. Now it's Britain's turn. With the granting of royal assent on Friday, the lottery is finally on its way. Millions of people undoubtedly will gain great pleasure from their weekly flutter. Targeted revenues could top four billion pounds a year and provide a war chest for good causes such as sport and arts, the treasury's cut will be twelve percent of proceeds, leaving a honey pot of six hundred million pounds of turnover a year for the operator. Four consortia have already declared their intention to bid, the Great British Lottery Company comprising of Granada, Vodaphone, Hambrose Bank, Carlton Communications, and Associated Newspapers. N M Rothschild and Tattersalls of Australia, the Rank Organization, and Camelot comprising of G Tec, De La Rue, Reikel, Cadbury Schweppes, and I C L. Installing computers and ticketing machines will be a key part of the job for any lottery operator. World wide there are only two major suppliers, and the question of how those crucial contracts are awarded is now under scrutiny across the Atlantic. . California, the richest and largest state in America, here the state lottery is big business, with annual sales of more than one point seven billion dollars, it helps fill the Federal coffers through taxation and provides about one percent of the states education budget. Hello, California state lottery, this is Nicol, can I have your retel I D number please. Federal government officials run the California lottery and equipment is supplied by G Tec, the company has experienced meteoric growth, it now runs lotteries in twenty six of the thirty six U S states which operate them. Today G Tec boasts world wide sales of over five hundred million dollars. I'm gonna need three . Shops like this sell lottery tickets all over California, these machines link directly to G Tec's mainframe computer. G Tec has supplied the lottery with equipment since nineteen eighty six. Its contract expired earlier this month, but last year an independent consultancy recommended California replace its existing system, it had already purchased it outright from G Tec for sixty million dollars. Sure. I hope so. Sharon , director of the California lottery since nineteen ninety one, was appointed by the state governor. A former nurse, she used to run the Illinois lottery. Last February, acting on the report she recommended that a new four hundred million dollar contract be awarded to G Tec for a replacement system, there were no other bidders. The lottery business is basically a very very small business with limited competition, and for a state the size of California it makes it very difficult to have large competition because only a certain number of companies can actually put in a system of this size. The decision created ripples throughout California, Joanne is a computer expert, she was head of the technical division at the California state lottery until her firing earlier this year after a period of sick leave. She has argued for more competition in state lottery tenders. Why did only one company bid for the contract in California? I think there was a perception from other vendors that the bid itself had specifications that could only be met by G Tec. That it was unfairly biased towards the incumbent vendor and therefore chose not to participate, it is very costly for companies to put together proposals to bid for an online game. These concerns were reflected in memos like this, Gordon head of the state lottery finance department was part of the team charged with evaluating G Tec's bid, he warned on November the third last year. If we are accused of structuring a massive bid proposal to expressly favour G Tec, and if G Tec end up being the only bidder we should expect to encounter major public relations and or legal problems, and we could end up paying far more than we had anticipated for the needed goods and services. Three weeks later in another memo he wrote. I continue to have graver concerns that four months is simply not enough time for any vendor other than G Tec to implement a turnkey online gaming system. It was memos like these that concerned politicians like state senator Tom , better known as Jane Fonda's ex-husband, he teaches at a religious college in Oakland. He dislikes gaming, but he is also concerned about the way in which the contract was awarded. The largest er state contract in the history of the state of California, something like four hundred million dollars was let to G Tec, and competition, er I believe was suppressed. Why? We don't know, and that happened not once but several times, leading to er er er a good ne honest professional members of the lottery commission er to warn in internal memos er that this was going to raise legal and public relations problems. Sharon defended the decision, she argues that few companies have the resources to undertake the hefty capital investment needed. For instance to er to put in this lottery, and put in the new system that we just converted, recently, a couple of days ago err takes tens and tens of millions of millions of dollars, and most companies who come in and work on a percentage of sales, don't get their capital investment back until several years into the contract. The contract was probed by the governor's office last March, as a result Pete Wilson sanctioned the go ahead of the G Tec deal, but said that the state lottery's bidding process needed amending. Processing scratch cards like this needs a central computer system, last year a hundred and fifty million dollar contract to do the job was awarded to a smaller rival, High Integrity Systems, in April Mrs cancelled that contract, after, the company says sixty five million dollars had been spent on the project. HISY is currently suing the California lottery. No luck. But a third, much smaller contract twenty three million dollar contract for scratch card machines brought things to a head at two public hearings. Sharon recommended the contract should be awarded to G Tec without any competitive bid, there was a public outcry, ten days ago she was forced to change her recommendation to the state lottery commission and opt for a tender. There was a lot of controversy involved, a lot of name calling if you will, erm a lot of accusations, none have merit I'll put that right up front, none have merit, I would recommend that you go out to bid to satisfy those concerns. That was after Joe , HISY's lawyer had claimed at a previous hearing that yet another G Tec rival, Scientific Games, had been told not to bother bidding by lottery officials. It is our understanding that were it not for the contact that was made by the state lottery with Scientific Games, that they would be a bidder, the Scientific Games system is a good system. G Tec say the allegations are unfounded, and the companies representative Robert was dismayed at the loss of the contract. We are beginning to wonder what it what it takes to engage in good faith negotiations as a business with the state of California, if all it takes is one person to get up, make some kind of scurrilous allegations, and throw the entire bidding in into cast some kind of doubt upon it. But it's not just contractual procedures that are under scrutiny in California. Here at the Sacremento federal court the trial of a lobbyist, Clay , is now under way. has been indicted on twelve counts of racketeering, and offering bribes to elected officials to advance the interests of his clients, one of whom was G Tec. State Senator Allan was a regular recipient of 's patronage. I'm not going I'm not prepared to in any manner er discuss er the case of the proceedings. Senator is now serving a jail sentence for racketeering and tax fraud. In an affidavit at his trial he said As part of my agreement with , I received campaign contributions totalling thirteen and a half thousand dollars from G Tec in October ninety eighty six. The campaign contributions were in return for my agreement to, and actually taking, official action at 's request. This is where Senator sold his vote to big business. When a G Tec rival Scientific Games sponsored a lottery bill detrimental to G Tec's commercial interests agreed to vote it down. In a new development on Thursday the court heard a conversation between Clay and Senator secretly taped in November nineteen ninety one as part of his cooperation with Federal prosecutors, during that conversation the lobbyist Clay boasted to his one time crony that Sharon , newly appointed by Governor Pete Wilson, was our girl. Pete Wilson put a new gal in, who's our gal, yeah the woman from Illinois, she ran the Illinois state lottery. Sharon was unavailable for comment this weekend, but her spokeswoman Joanne described the recording as a bunch of boasting rantings. In London this weekend Robert described the revelations from the Clay trial as media sensation, Mr who is still on the payroll, he said has not lobbied for G Tec for more than a year. I think the bottom line of this issue, frankly, is that the U S er attorney the governmental er investigating authorities in this matter have had this information at their disposal for several years now, had there been any question of G Tec's behaviour er we would certainly be the subject of something that we are not right now, and that the bottom line is we have been assured from the outset that G Tec has not been a subject of this investigation, that G Tec's behaviour has been above reproach, and as far as his comments go we we don't really know what context to put them in. They certainly weren't speaking on behalf of the company and appear to be, frankly, incomprehensible ramblings. What is the relationship between er your company and Mrs Sharp? Our relationship between any lottery director and G Tec as a company has always been professional and above reproach and as far as our relationship with the current director in California, we've had instances were we've been successful in California in gaining business while she was a director, and we've been unsuccessful. But doubts about G Tec have spread beyond California, in Baltimore, Maryland, the company also operates the state lottery, here too the awarding of contracts is being scrutinized, a forty nine million dollar contract to provide a popular computerized casino game called Keyknow is being investigated by a grand jury. Leon is a local Maryland politician. He dislikes gaming and was instrumental in triggering the current Federal investigation. In California there was no competition, in Maryland there was no competition, every place that G Tec operates, they go in, they hire the highest price talent, they hire the most politically connected talent and they end up getting the contract. Now what we have to know is whether or not they are in fact getting these contracts because they are the best and the cheapest, or whether they are getting it because they have the best connections and they are paying the most money. What do you personally believe? I believe it's because they have the best connections, and they're paying the most money. I I can't comment on on comments that you are referencing, however I will say that in Maryland er we displaced an incumbent vendor who had been there a long time, er that vendor was a bit upset as you might imagine with being displaced as a vendor, and in Maryland we had a situation that kind of evolved into the same kind of political row you would expect when a company loses a long time business. What are people in Britain to make of this as you come here to present yourselves as a a future er lottery operator? What people have to keep in mind, and what people really should be very concerned about here in Great Britain is the fact that this is a very contentious industry, that there are a number of competitors out there who have taken to slinging innuendo around as if it were mud. Er frankly, these investigations at any level are very thorough, we depend upon the very thorough investigations in probity of all the government jurisdictions in which we operate. The government announced on Friday the appointment of Peter as the National Lottery's director general, he's to ensure the propriety of the national lottery. Our preoccupation er straightforwardly is that we have a lottery which is run with probity and without impropriety, and the director general has very widespread powers, fact to investigate the backgrounds of any bidders. A flutter for the punter is the battle cry, but much will ride on how the burgeoning industry is regulated. fifty to three hundred and fifty pounds and Lot one four three three hundred and fifty to four hundred and fifty pounds. I'll remi remind you of those again as I reach the various Lots. And we commence this morning with Lot number one Lot number one is showing to my right here, the ivory carving at fifty pounds at fifty pounds at fifty pounds you want it for fifty pounds, thank you sir, fifty I've got now, fifty pounds is offered at fifty five at fifty five, sixty, sixty five seventy, seventy five eighty five ninety ninety pounds in the back row at ninety and selling for ninety pounds, any further bids at ninety pounds at ninety pounds. Thank you sir, it's yours for ninety pounds. Number six O six. Lot number two Lot two is a Japanese ivory carving we've got that showing for you for seventy five pounds at seventy five pounds, eighty, eighty five, ninety offered I'm offered ninety pounds and I'm selling it for ninety, ninety five, a hundred pounds and ten one twenty thirty a hundred and thirty for you sir, coming in at one thirty in the back row, one thirty and selling for a hundred and thirty pounds. The same buyer thank you, one thirty. Six O six. Er Lot number three Lot number three the Canton trays there we are there we've got a sample showing for you Lot number three, there are seven of them in the Lot all seven of them for a hundred and fifty pounds at one hundred and fifty, sixty, seventy, one eighty, one ninety, two hundred, two twenty, forty, sixty two eighty I'm offered two hundred and eighty pounds you're on three hundred for you sir three hun three twenty three fifty, three eighty go to four hundred four twenty four fifty four eighty five hundred and fifty and you bet against you both now five hundred and fifty is offered against you both now, five fifty five hundred and fifty pounds. Thank you that's a lady's offer at five fifty and that's six eleven, thank you. Lot number four Lot number four the rectangular box and we have that showing Lot number four at eighty pounds for this and eighty pounds and eighty five, ninety pounds at ninety pounds any more at ninety pounds only at ninety all ninety pounds ninety pounds. Thank you Lot number five. Lot number five the circular mirror this the mirror fifty pounds for this one at fifty pounds, at fifty five, at fifty five pounds at fifty five pounds all done? At fifty five only, at sixty, thank you, at sixty five sixty five again at sixty five if you're all finished at sixty five pounds. Thank you. Lot number six. Lot six a Canton card case this the card case showing I've got several offers I've got to start at three hundred pounds got that in several places three hund three twenty, three fifty, eighty, four hundred I bid four hundred, four twenty, four fifty at four hundred and fifty pounds, anybody else? Four fifty and selling for four hundred and fifty pounds, all done at four fifty. Number ninety four, thank you, four fifty. Excuse me please, is it possible for you to speak a bit louder. It's I'll, I'll try for you yes. Thank you. Lot number seven Lot seven the rosewater sprinkler Lot number seven there it is a hundred pounds for this one, one hundred pounds and ten, a hundred and ten pounds. Any more at one hundred and ten only, one twenty, one thirty one forty, fifty one sixty, seventy one seventy one eighty, the lady's bid sir do you want to come in? One eighty coming in? One hundred and eighty pounds with the lady at one eighty and selling for one eighty in the back row. One ninety standing two hundred pounds, two twenty two forty two sixty two sixty against the lady at six go on at two hundred and sixty pounds, you all done at two sixty. Six one five, thank you, two sixty. Lot number eight Lot eight there we are there it is showing to you, Lot number eight and I'm offered a hundred pounds to start me on it, one hundred pounds and ten, twenty, one hundred and twenty pounds at a hundred and twenty pounds all s all done at one twenty, one thirty, forty a hundred and forty pounds selling for one hundred and forty pounds, any more at one hundred and forty pounds. Number one eight two, one forty. Lot number nine Lot nine this the carving, Lot number nine eighty pounds for this one, eighty, eighty five, ninety , ninety pounds, any more at ninety pounds, ninety five, one hundred pounds, at one hundred pounds, anybody else at one hundred and ten standing, one twenty going on, sir? One twenty against you standing all done at one hundred and twenty pounds, any more at one twenty? One hundred and twenty pounds. Lot ten ten, ten is the Burmese Buddha this the Buddha showing for a hundred pounds at one hundred pounds, and ten at a hundred and ten pounds all done? At one hundred and ten pounds, any more at one hundred and ten? All done? Thank you, Lot number eleven. Lot eleven the Tibetan model there's the model showing eighty pounds for this, at eighty, eighty five offered, at ninety, ninety five, ninety five bid, one hundred and ten, twenty, thirty a hundred and thirty is offered at one hundred and thirty, one forty a new bidder now, one forty to my right and selling for one hundred and forty thank you, one forty for join on. Lot number twelve Lot twelve an alabaster model there's the Indian model showing at eighty pounds for this, at eighty, eighty five, ninety five, one hundred, at one hundred pounds at one hundred pounds, any more at one hundred,one hundred, you all done? At one hundred pounds, any more? And ten, at one hundred and ten pounds one hundred and ten pounds. Lot number thirteen thirteen is the bronze model there's the bronze model showing for eighty pounds at eighty pounds at eighty pounds any more at eighty pounds, all done? At eighty pounds, the opening offer, at eighty pounds only. Thank you. Lot number fourteen. Lot fourteen, the bronze bell the bronze bell is showing fifty for this, at fifty, fifty five pounds at fifty five, sixty, sixty five, seventy, seventy five going on, sir? Eighty pounds, eighty five ninety ninety five one hundred and ten twenty one twenty to my left standing, at one twenty all done, at one hundred and twenty pounds standing, at one twenty. Thank you sir, it's yours for one twenty and that's for number eight four eight, thank you. Lot number fifteen Lot fifteen, the jadeite plaque there's the jadeite plaque showing a hundred pounds for it, one hundred pounds and ten, twenty, thirty, one thirty offered, forty, fifty, at one hundred and fifty pounds at a hundred and fifty only, at one hundred and fifty pounds, I shall sell, one sixty, one seventy, going on sir? One eighty, one ninety two hundred and twenty two forty, sixty two eighty, three hundred three hundred pounds, against anybody else? At three hundred pounds and selling for three hundred pounds. Three hundred pounds, number sixty five, that's a commission bid. Lot sixteen Lot sixteen an okimono is showing, for a hundred pounds, at one hundred pounds and ten, twenty, one hundred and twenty pounds at a hundred and twenty, thirty, forty one fifty, sixty one seventy, eighty ninety, two hundred and twenty two hundred and twenty pounds to my right, and selling for two twenty, all finished? At two hundred and twenty pounds thank you, two twenty for number two O two. Lot number seventeen Lot seventeen, the glass snuff-bottle snuff-bottle there showing at a hundred pounds for this, at one hundred pounds at a hundred pounds, any more at one hundred only, at one hundred all done? At one hundred pounds any more at a hundred pounds? Thank you, Lot number eighteen. Lot number eighteen is the next to offer that's the bronze model the bronze model, I have fifty pounds offered to start me at fifty, fifty five, sixty pounds, at sixty five sixty five pounds any more? Sixty five all done, at sixty five, if you're all finished at sixty five pounds. Sixty five pounds. Lot nineteen nineteen cylindrical vase there's the carved vase showing thirty for this one, at thirty pounds, at thirty five, at thirty five pounds at thirty five pounds, any more at thirty five only, at forty in front, forty five fifty in front, five fifty five against you, near me at fifty five pounds, you all finished now, at fifty five, any more at fifty five. Fifty five pounds. Lot number twenty twenty is a quantity of stands there we are, we've got a sample showing for you just a sample showing fifty for the lot the whole lot there for fifty pounds at fifty pounds want them for fifty pounds thank you sir, fifty pounds I've got, at fifty five going on fifty five, sixty pounds, sixty five coming in sir? Seventy pounds, seventy five eighty, eighty five ninety five one hundred and ten one twenty I'm offered a hundred and twenty pounds, I'll sell, one thirty one forty fifty one sixty one seventy one eighty one ninety carrying on, sir? One ni two hundred pounds two hundred pounds against you now, sir two hundred to my right at the back, at two hundred pounds thank you, six one O at two hundred pounds. Lot number twenty one Lot twenty one the Japanese cloisonne there we are, we've got one of them showing one of them showing for you, for a hundred pounds, one hundred pounds and ten, twenty, one hundred and twenty pounds at a hundred and twenty pounds, you all finished now, at one twen one thirty, forty one fifty, sixty one sixty against you, coming in? One sixty, any more? One six yes. One hundred and sixty pounds, all done, at one hundred and sixty pounds, any more at one sixty. One sixty. Lot number twenty two twenty two, the gilt-bronze and enamel model showing at a hundred and fifty pounds one fifty I'm offered, thank you, one hundred and fifty pounds I've got, one sixty, one seventy, one eighty, ninety two hundred and twenty, forty, sixty two eighty, three hundred three hundred pounds against you at three hundred, anybody else? Three twenty in the back row now three twenty in the back row and selling for three hundred and twenty pounds. Thank you sir, it's yours for three twenty and that's for number six O nine. Lot number twenty three Lot twenty three is the er lacquered circular cover there we are, that's showing fifty for this one, at fifty pounds, at fifty pounds, at fifty five fifty five pounds any more? At fif sixty, thank you, standing, for sixty, sixty five seventy pounds, seventy five eighty, eighty five ninety standing I'm offered ninety pounds at the back standing, at ninety and selling for ninety pounds, you all finished, at ninety pounds. Thank you sir, it's yours for ninety pounds and that's for number two one three thank you. Lot number twenty four Lot number twenty four there's Lot number twenty four showing at a hundred pounds, one hundred pounds and ten, twenty one thirty to my right a hundred and thirty offered . at one hundred and thirty pounds, one forty in the back row, one fifty one sixty one seventy one eighty one ninety two hundred two hundred pounds in the back row, at two hundred pounds, two twenty to my right the lady's bid, sir two forty two forty, going on? Against the lady at two forty, it's in back row at two forty, it's yours, sir at two forty. All done at two hundred and forty pounds. Thank you, two hundred and forty pounds, that's for number six O six. Lot number twenty five, Lot number twenty five there we are fragmentary carving there's the carving showing sixty pounds for it sixty five, seventy seventy five, eighty eighty five, ninety ninety five a hundred and ten twenty thirty forty one fifty, sixty one sixty against you standing and against you no one sixty in the centre at one hundred and sixty pounds I've got, at one hundred and sixty thank you, one hundred and sixty pounds for that six one three. Lot number twenty six Lot number twenty six, the grey jade pendant there's the grey jade pendant showing Lot twenty six for thirty pounds at thirty, thirty five, forty, forty five, fifty for you sir, thank you, five sixty, sixty five seventy offered I'm bid seventy in the centre now and selling for seventy, seventy five to my right eighty pounds eighty five eighty five, the lady's offer, sir at eighty five pounds, any more at eight five pounds. The lady to my right, eighty five pounds, that's eight forty, thank you. Lot number twenty seven twenty seven the bronze model there's the bronze model fifty for this, at fifty, thank you, fifty is offered, at five, sixty, sixty five, seventy, seventy five, eighty, eighty five ninety bid I'm offered ninety pounds at the back, anybody else at ninety, ninety five one hundred going on sir? And ten one twenty one twenty bid at one hundred and twenty pou one thirty against you both going on? One forty one fifty one sixty seventy eighty, ninety two hundred and twenty two forty two sixty any more sir? Two eighty three hundred still against you three hundred pounds here on my right at three hundred, and selling for three hundre yes three twenty three twenty against you three twenty at the back and selling for three hundred and twenty pounds. Thank you, three twenty and that was for number eight four one, thank you. Lot number twenty eight Lot twenty eight er the white jade bottle there's the bottle showing a hundred pounds for it, at one hundred pounds at a hundred pounds and ten, twenty one thirty one thirty offered and selling for one hundred and thirty, one forty one forty against you now one forty to my left and selling for one hundred and forty pounds second row, thank you, one forty and the next number is number two one eight, thank you. Lot number twenty nine, Lot twenty nine the mandarin head-dress there's the head-dress showing eighty pounds, at eighty pounds, at five, ninety, ninety pounds at ninety pounds all done? At ninety pounds, any more? At ninety only, at ninety pounds. Have you all finished? Thank you, Lot number thirty. Lot number thirty is the next to offer and that's the beaker there's the beaker. Twenty pounds for it at twenty pounds at twenty pounds thank you, twenty is offered and selling for twenty pounds only, twenty five for you sir, thank you, twenty five, thirty thirty five thirty five to my left and selling for thirty five pounds yours sir, thank you, thirty five pounds for number eight four five, thank you very much. Lot number thirty one, Lot thirty one, the netsuke there's the netsuke showing sixty pounds offered, at sixty, sixty five pounds, at sixty five pounds, seventy in the centre, seventy five eighty, eighty five ninety in the centre I'm offered ninety and I shall take ninety if there's no further bid, ninety five in front going on sir? Ninety five, coming in? One hundred pounds and ten one twenty one twenty offered to my right, at one twenty and selling for a hundred and twenty pounds. Thank you, one twenty for two hundred. Lot number thirty two Lot thirty two, the lacquer brushes there we are, there's the lacquer brushes, I've got two offers of a hundred pounds for them one hundred pounds in two places, at one hundred and ten, one twenty, thirty, forty going on? One fifty, sixty one seventy, one eighty any more? One one ninety, thank you, at two hundred pounds coming in sir? Two hundred against you both at two hundred pounds, the bid's on the book at two hundred against you both, at two hundred and selling for two hundred, two twenty, two forty two sixty, two eighty any more sir? At two hundred and eighty, the bid's with me at two hundred and eighty pounds against you all, at two eighty. Thank you, that's a commission bid and that's for number one eight eight. Lot number thirty three Lot number thirty three is the hanging basket there's the hanging basket showing, a hundred pounds for this, at one hundred pounds and ten twenty, thirty, forty, fifty sixty, seventy one eighty I'm offered a hundred and eighty pounds, one ninety two hundred two twenty, two forty, two sixty eighty three hundred three hundred's bid on my left and selling for three hundred pounds second row, three hundred pounds. Two one eight, thank you, three hundred pounds. Lot number thirty four Lot number thirty four the okimono there's the okimono showing eighty pounds for this one is offered, at eighty pounds I've got in two places, at eighty pounds, eighty five in the centre, at eighty five is bid and selling for eighty five it's yours sir at eighty five, ninety to my right, ninety five going on sir? One hundred pounds and ten one hundred and ten pounds, one twenty a hundred and twenty to my right, at one hundred and twenty pounds, have you all finished? At one twenty. Eight thirty, thank you, one twenty. Lot number thirty five Lot number thirty five there we are, there it is showing, Lot number thirty five, eighty pounds for this one, at eighty, eighty five, ninety, ninety five, one hundred is offered I'm offered a hundred pounds and selling for one hundred, all done? At one hundred pounds, any more? At one hundred pounds thank you, number seventy four, one hundred pounds. And Lot number thirty six Lot thirty six showing to my right, at a hundred pounds again, at one hundred pounds at a hundred pounds one hundred only, at one hundred, you all done? At one hundred, the opening offer at one hundred pounds. Thank you, Lot number thirty seven. Lot number thirty seven Shibayama aide-memoire there's the aide- memoire showing fifty pounds for this, at fifty, fifty five for you sir, sixty pounds, sixty five, seventy, seventy five, eighty eighty five eighty five offered and selling for eighty five pounds, any more? Ninety here now ninety five, a hundred pounds one hundred to my left and selling for one hundred all done at one hundred pounds. That's in the aisle at one hundred pounds, thank you, and that's for number two one two, thank you. Lot number thirty eight Lot thirty eight the er Persian brass standard there's the brass standard seventy pounds for it, seventy, seventy five, eighty pounds, at eighty pounds at eighty pounds any more at eighty only, at eighty pounds, all done? At eighty pounds, any more at eighty pounds eighty five, thank you, at ninety pounds ninety five, a hundred at one hundred against you at the back, at one hundred, you all done at one hundred pounds. One hundred pounds. Lot number thirty nine thirty nine is the coal holder there it is seventy pounds for this, at seventy, seventy five, eighty pounds at eighty pounds at eighty pounds any more at eighty only, at eighty, eighty five, ninety pounds, ninety five, a hundred pounds, and ten, twenty, one thirty offered I'm offered one thirty on my left and selling for one hundred and thirty pou one forty standing one fifty one sixty one seventy going on sir? One seventy against you, any more at one, one eighty one ninety two hundred two twenty two hundred and twenty still against you, at two hundred and twenty pounds I'm offered thank you, two hundred and twenty for the lady and that's for number nine one eight, thank you. Lot number forty Lot number forty Persian steel fitting there it is seventy for this, at seventy pounds, at seventy five, eighty pounds, at eighty pounds at eighty pounds, any more at eighty pounds, you all done? At eighty pounds only, at eighty pounds, any more at eighty? Thank you, Lot number forty one. Lot number forty one, the brass sticks there we are, we've got one of them showing for you just one of them showing, I've got a hundred and fifty offered for it, one fifty, sixty, seventy, eighty one ninety, two hundred I'm bid I'm offered two hundred pounds, anybody else at two hundred and selling at two hundred, two twenty, two forty going on? Two sixty, two eighty two hundred and eighty pounds against you at the back and selling for two hundred and eighty pounds two eighty, one one nine. Lot forty two Lot forty two is the er large selection of auction catalogues and we've got a sample showing, there we are works of art for you twenty pounds for them at twenty pounds anyone want them for twenty pounds sample showing for twenty pounds, anyone want them for twenty, thank you sir, twenty pounds I've got in the centre and I shall sell at twenty if there's no further bid at twenty pounds, any more? Eight five eight, thank you, twenty pounds. Lot number forty three Lot forty three a snuff-bottle there it is and I'm offered two hundred for this one, and twenty, two forty, two sixty two eighty for you sir, three hundred pounds, going on? Three twenty, three fifty, three eighty in the centre three eighty is offered and selling for three hundred and eighty, all done? At three hundred and eighty pounds. Gentleman in the centre, three eighty and that's for number eight three six Lot number forty four Lot forty four is the Japanese hand-warmer there's the hand-warmer for fifty pounds, at fifty, fifty five pounds, at fifty five pounds at fifty five, any more at fifty five, all done? At fif sixty at the back, sixty five going on sir? Seventy, seventy five, eighty five ninety ninety is offered at the back and selling for ninety if you're all finished at ninety pounds. That's back left ninety pounds, number eight five three, thank you. Lot number forty five is the scribe scribe's set, there it is for three hundred pounds, at three hundred, three twenty, three fifty, three eighty, four hundred, four twenty, four fifty four eighty offered I'm offered four eighty to my left, five hundred seated, five fifty six hundred six fifty going to you sitting six hundred and fifty, going on? At six fifty standing on my left and selling, seven hundred to my right seven fifty going on sir? Seven fifty, going to you, any m eight hundred eight fifty eight nine hundred and fifty round it off? No? Nine fifty to my left and selling for nine hundred and fifty pounds. Thank you sir, it's yours eight two eight, thank you, nine fifty. Lot number forty six Lot number forty six is the next, that's the ivory figure Chinese figure there a hundred pounds for this and ten, twenty, thirty, forty, one forty, fifty, one hundred and fifty pounds, one sixty, one seventy, one eighty, one ninety two hundred and twenty coming in sir? Two fifty here in the centre now two fifty I've got and I shall sell, two eighty two hundred and eighty, three hundred pounds three twenty three fifty three eighty four hundred four hundred by the post, at four hundred and selling for four hundred, if you're all finished at four hundred pounds yours sir, thank you, four hundred and that's for number six O nine, six O nine thank you. Lot number forty seven Lot number forty seven, the micro-mosaic there it is Lot number forty seven at a hundred and fifty pounds, at one fifty, one sixty, seventy, one eighty, one ninety, two hundred offered, two twenty, two forty two sixty, two eighty, three hundred and twenty three going, three fifty, three eighty any more sir? At three eighty going to you, all done? Anybody else at three hundred and eighty pounds, I'm selling for three hundred and eighty pounds three eighty and that's number one O three. The next Lot I'm afraid is withdrawn as announced er Lot number forty nine is the next, Lot number forty nine is a soapstone carving there's the soapstone carving Lot number forty nine for two hundred pounds at two hund two twenty, two fifty, two eighty, three hundred, three twenty, three fifty, three eighty, four hundred, four twenty offered at four hundred and twenty, four fifty, four eighty going on sir? Four eighty against you, any more? Five hundred pounds and fifty, against you still at five fifty seated at five hundred and fifty, six hundred to my right six fifty at the back seven hundred pounds going on sir? Seven fifty eight hundred eight fifty nine hundred and fifty at a thousand pounds eleven hundred twelve hundred twelve hundred against you sir, thirteen hundred fourteen hundred fifteen hundred sixteen hundred seventeen hundred eighteen hundred nineteen hundred two thousand any more sir? No? Not giving up now are you? Two thousand pounds here, going on? Two thousand? Two thousand one hundred two thousand two hundred two, two thousand three hundred two thousa coming in sir? Two thousand four two thou two thousand five two thousand five hundred on the back row, at two thousand five hundred pounds, I'm selling for two thousand five hundred two thousand six in time any more sir? At two thousand six to my right, at two thousand six. Thank you, two thousand six hundred pounds and that's for number two eleven. Lot number fifty Lot fifty is a wood carving, a Japanese wood carving, eighty pounds for this, eighty five, ninety five, one hundred and ten I'm offered a hundred and ten pounds, I shall sell, one twenty, one thirty, forty, fifty one sixty bid I'm offered one sixty to my right, at one hundred and sixty pounds, have you all finished at one sixty? Thank you, one sixty for two hundred. Lot number fifty one, Lot fifty one, Japanese mask put it on John er Lot number fifty one er eighty pounds for it, thank you, at eighty, eighty five, ninety pounds, at ninety pounds any more at ninety pounds, all done? At ninety only, at ninety pounds, you all finished? Ninety five in time, one hundred pounds at one hundr and ten, twenty one thirty in front I'm bid a hundred and thirty and I shall sell for one hundred and thirty pounds thank you, the lady's offer, one thirty, front row and for that's for number six one two. Lot fifty two Lot fifty two there we are, Lot number fifty two is in front of the rostrum here Lot number fifty two sorry? What's wrong? Lot fifty. I think we're we're okay, that was fifty one fifty one was the mask, that was okay. Er, Lot, Lot number fifty two I'm offering which is in front of the rostrum here Lot number fifty two for a hundred pounds at one hundred pounds at one hundred and ten, one twenty, one thirty at a hundred and thirty pounds any more at one hundred and thirty, one forty in the centre one fifty going on sir? One f one sixty one seventy any more? One eighty one ninety two hundred pounds, two twenty any more? Two twenty, all done? Two twenty standing, at two hu two forty two sixty two hundred and sixty still against you two eighty three hundred three hundred pounds standing, at three hundred pounds, you all done at three hundred pounds? Thank you, that's yours sir, for three hundred pounds and that's for number eight five four, thank you. Lot number fifty three Lot fifty three again it's in front of the rostrum here, Lot number fifty three for a hundred pounds at one hundred pounds at one hundred pounds, any more at one hundred only, at one hundred, you all done? At one, and ten, twenty one thirty at a hundred and thirty pounds standing, at one thirty, all done, at one hundred and thirty and selling for a hundred and thirty pounds thank you sir, the same buyer, one hundred and thirty pounds for eight five four. Lot number fifty four Lot fifty four copper bowl copper bowl showing for a hundred pounds, at one hundred and ten at a hundred and ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty sixty, seventy one eighty offered I'm offered a hundred and eighty pounds, I shall sell for one eighty, one ninety going on sir? One ninety against you now at a hundred and ninety bid, with the lady at one ninety. Thank you, one ninety er, nine, nine one eight is it? Nine one eight it is, thank you. Lot number fifty five, Lot number fifty five the hanging lamp there's the hanging lamp showing for a hundred and fifty pounds at a hundred and fifty, one sixty, one seventy, one eighty, one ninety, two hundred, two twenty standing I'm offered two hundred and twenty pounds, I'll take two twenty, two forty, two sixty two eighty three hundred three, going on? Three on any more? It's against you both, three twenty three fifty at the back three fifty standing at three hundred and fifty pounds standing at three fifty and selling for three hundred and fifty. Eight five four, three fifty, thank you. Lot number fifty six Lot fifty six, the copper bowl, the Timurid copper bowl, there it is for three hundred pounds at three hundred pounds at three hundred pounds, any more at three hundred pounds, all done? At the opening offer at three hundred pounds, any more at three hundred? Thank you, Lot number fifty seven Lot fifty seven I'm offering, that's the five er Persian sections, there we are, they've got those showing or one of them Lot number fifty seven, fifty pounds for this, at fifty pounds at fifty pounds, fifty five, sixty, sixty five, seventy seventy five, eighty eighty five, ninety ninety five, a hundred and ten twenty one thirty a hundred and thirty against you near me now one thirty, anybody else want, forty in front one fifty going on sir? One fifty against you one yes? One sixty, thank you one sixty in front now second row at one sixty and selling for one sixty thank you, a hundred and sixty pounds and that's for number two one eight. Thank you. Lot number fifty eight Lot number fifty eight is another five sections there we are, we've got one of those showing for fifty pounds, at fifty, fifty five pounds, at fifty five, any more at sixty sixty five going on? Seventy seventy five eighty eighty five ninety ninety five a hundred and ten twenty thirty forty, fifty, sixty, seventy, eighty one eighty to my left one eighty, it's yours sir, at one eighty, anybody else at one hundred and eighty pounds one eighty. Thank you, a hundred and eighty pounds for number six one five, thank you. Lot number fifty nine, Lot fifty nine is a plaster model there's the plaster model showing thirty pounds for this, at thirty pounds at thirty pounds any more at thirty pounds, all done at thirty, thirty five, forty pounds yes? Forty five forty five offered and selling forty five to my left, all done at forty five, in all at forty five. Forty five pounds and that's for five two two. Five two two sir. Lot number sixty Lot number sixty rock-crystal beaker, there's the rock-crystal beaker, for fifty pounds, at fifty, fifty five pounds, at sixty five, seventy five, eighty five, ninety five a hundred and ten twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, sixty, seventy, eighty, ninety, two hundred, two twenty going on sir? Two fifty two eighty three hundred and twenty three fifty eighty four hundred twenty any more? Four twe four twenty against you at four twen anybody else? At four twenty I'm bid at the back on the left at four twenty. Eight five four, four twenty, thank you. Lot number sixty one Lot sixty one is the er Bohemian base, there it is there's the base showing, a hundred pounds and ten, twenty, thirty a hundred and thirty pounds any more? At one hundred and thirty pounds, one forty, fifty one, one fif sixty, seventy any more sir? One eighty one ninety two hundred two twenty two forty sixty two eighty three hundred and twenty three twenty bid at the back on the left at three twenty, anybody else at three hundred and twenty pounds? Eight five four, thank you, three twenty. Lot number sixty two, sixty two, the Roman pottery lamps Roman pottery lamps thirty pounds for these, at thirty pounds, at thirty five, at thirty five pounds any more at thirty five only, at thirty five, you all done? At thirty five pounds, any more at thirty five? Forty in time forty five fifty, fifty five fifty five against you near me, at fifty five, all done at fifty five. Fifty five pounds. Lot number sixty three Lot sixty three Lot number sixty three, the showing for a hundred and fifty pounds, at sixty, seventy, one eighty, one ninety, two hundred is offered I'm bid two hundred, to anybody else at two hundred? Two ten, two twenty, thirty, at two hundred and thirty pounds, forty, fifty two fifty, going on? At two fifty, all done, at two hun two sixty at two hundred and sixty pounds, any more at two sixty? Yours sir, thank you, two sixty and that's for number two two two. Lot number sixty four Lot number sixty four there's another one showing for you, fifty for this one, at fifty pounds thank you, fifty is offered at the back at fifty pounds I've got I can and will sell for fifty pounds only, any further bids at fifty five sixty going on sir? Sixty five seventy seventy pounds at the back standing at seventy and selling for seventy pounds. Eight five four, thank you, seventy pounds. Lot number sixty five Lot sixty five is another one there we are another one showing I'm offered seventy five to start me, at seventy five, eighty, eighty five, ninety five, ninety five is bid, at ninety five and selling, all done? One hundred and ten against you one hundred and ten pounds against you at one ten is my bid at one hundred and ten, all done? Thank you, a commission bid for number sixty six, one ten. Lot number sixty six Lot number sixty six is another one there we are, there's another one showing for a hundred pounds at one hundred and ten, at one hundred and ten pounds any more at one ten, one twenty, thirty, forty, fifty one sixty, seventy one eighty at the back against you near me one eighty at the back and selling for a hundred and eighty pounds, all done at one eighty. Eight five four, thank you, one eighty. Lot number sixty seven Lot sixty seven is another one there we are, that one showing for you a hundred pounds for this, and ten, twenty, at one hundred and thirty, forty one hundred and forty is bid and selling for one hundred and forty pounds, anybody else at one for one fifty, one sixty going on sir? One seventy, one eighty one ninety offered I'm offered a hundred and ninety pounds, have you all finished at one ninety? The same buyer, thank you, one ninety for eight five four. Lot number sixty eight Lot sixty eight is another one there we are that one is showing for a hundred pounds at one ten, one twenty, one thirty bid, and s one forty one fifty sixty one seventy eighty one ninety two hundred two twenty two forty two forty bid at the back and selling for two forty, all done at two hundred and forty. Eighty five four, thank you, two forty. Lot number sixty nine Lot sixty nine, double page there it is Lot number sixty nine for three hundred pounds, at three hundred pounds at three hundred pounds, three twenty, three fifty, three eighty, four hundred four hundred, going on sir? Four twenty, four fifty four eighty bid I'm offered four hundred and eighty pounds, I shall sell at four eighty if there's no further bid at four hundred and eighty pounds five hundred in time going one sir? Five fifty against the lady now, at five hundred and fifty I'm offered and selling for five fifty. Eight five four, thank you, five fifty. Lot number seventy Lot seventy there we are, there's in there look, number seventy for three hundred pounds at three hundred pounds, any more, three twenty, three fifty, three eighty, four hundred, four hundred pounds, going on sir? Four twenty, four fifty four eighty offered I'm offered four hundred and eighty pounds, anybody else at four hundred and eighty pounds, have you all finished at four eighty? The same buyer, thank you, four eighty. Lot number seventy one Lot number seventy one seventy one there's the stele showing there's the carving showing there for a hundred and fifty pounds, at one fifty, one sixty, one seventy, at one hundred and seventy pounds, at one eighty offered, one ninety, two hundred now two hundred is bid and selling for two hundred, you all done? At two hund two twenty, two forty going on sir? Two sixty, two eighty three hundred, three twenty any more? Three three twenty, three forty, three sixty still against you sir, three sixty, anybody else? At three hundred and sixty pounds and selling for three hundred and sixty, have you all finished? Three sixty is a commission bid for one O eight. Lot number seventy two Lot seventy two two-handled ding there it is Lot number seventy two for two hundred and fifty pounds, at two hundred and fifty, two eighty, at two hundred and eighty pounds at two eighty, three hundred, three twenty now three twenty is offered all done at three twenty? I shall sell at three twenty if there's no further bids at three hundred and twenty pounds any more? Three twenty, that's number sixty three commission bid. Lot number seventy three seventy three, the baluster vase is showing for fifty pounds at fifty, fifty five pounds, at fifty five pounds at fifty five, any more at fifty five, you all done? At fifty five, sixty at the back, sixty five, going on sir? Seventy, seventy five eighty, eighty five ninety at the back I'm offered ninety pounds, I shall sell at ninety, it's yours sir at ninety pounds ninety pounds, gentleman left back and that's for eight five three. Lot number seventy four Lot seventy four, the censer there's the Ming censer showing Lot number seventy four, a hundred for this, at one hundred pounds at a hundred pounds and ten, one twenty, one thirty, at one hundred and thirty I'm offered and selling for one thirty, all done? At one hundred and thirty pounds, any more at one thirty? One thirty, thank you, for number two two three. Lot number seventy five Lot seventy five soapstone panel soapstone panel eighty pounds, at eighty pounds at eighty pounds, any more at eighty pounds, all done? Opening offer at eighty, any more at eighty pounds only, at eighty pounds any more? Thank you, Lot number seventy six Lot number seventy six Peking er dishes there's the Peking dishes, there's seven of them, we've got one of them showing seven in the for a hundred pounds one hundred pounds at a hundred pounds and ten, at one hundred and ten pounds, any more at one hundred and ten , twenty, thirty one forty in front, one fifty one sixty, seventy yes?one eighty, thank you one eighty in front, at a hundred and eighty pounds and selling for one hundred and eighty. Thank you, they're yours for one eighty and that's for number six one two. Lot number seventy seven Lot seventy seven Lot number seventy seven is showing for you and I've got a hundred pounds offered for it and ten, twenty, at one hundred and twenty pounds at a hundred and twenty pounds,one twenty, you all done? At one twenty and selling all done? One thirty, forty a hundred and forty pounds, you all done at one forty, against you all, at one forty. One forty is for one eight one. Lot number seventy eight Lot seventy eight a patinated bronze teapot there's the bronze teapot a hundred pounds at one hundred and ten, twenty, one hundred and twenty pounds at one hundred and twenty pounds, one thirty, forty, fifty, sixty, seventy, eighty ninety, two hundred two twenty bid I'm offered two hundred and twenty to my right and selling for two twenty, two forty two sixty, two eighty three hundred and twenty three fifty three eighty four hundred and twenty four fifty, eighty five hundred and fifty six hundred six hundred pounds offered anybody else at six hundred pounds still to my right at six hundred pounds. Thank you , six hundred pounds. Two O eight. Two O eight. Lot number seventy nine Lot number seventy nine is the Ming bronze model there's the bronze model showing for three hundred pounds, at three hun three twenty, three fifty, at three hundred and fifty pounds any more at three hundred and fifty, all done at three fifty, any more, at three hund three eighty, four hundred, going on sir? Four hundred going to you, any more? Four four twenty, four fifty going on? Four fifty, any more? Four eighty, five hundred and fifty, six hundred any more? Six hun and fifty six hundred and fifty pounds against you both, any more at six hundred and fifty pounds, have you all finished at six fifty? To you, six hundred and fifty pounds. Lot number eighty eighty is the bamboo carving there's the bamboo carving fifty for this, at fifty, fifty five, sixty, sixty five seventy, seventy five eighty, eighty five ninety is offered, back row, ninety and selling for ninety, all done? At ninety five ninety fi one hundred pounds and ten one ten, one twenty thirty one thirty against you on the back row, you coming in now sir? One thirty here, one hundred and thirty one thirty. Thank you, one thirty to my left and that's for number two one two. Er Lot number eighty one Lot number eighty one er the inkstone there it is, Lot number eighty one and I'm offered a hundred and fifty in two places one hundred and fifty, one sixty, seventy, one eighty, one ninety two hundred, two twenty two hundred and twenty bid at two hundred and twenty pounds two twenty only, at two twenty. Two hundred and twenty pounds for one O three. Lot number eighty two Lot number eighty two oviform jar eighty pounds for this at eighty pounds at eighty pounds any more at eighty only, at eighty pounds, all done, at eighty, the opening offer, at eighty pounds any more at eighty? Thank you, Lot number eighty three Er Lot number eighty is the next to offer a soapstone carving there's the soapstone carving showing for a hundred pounds, at one hundred and ten, a hundred and ten pounds any more at one hundred and ten all done, at one hundred and ten pounds. Thank you, Lot number eighty four Lot number eighty four a square seal there's the seal showing eighty for this one, at eighty pounds at eighty pounds, eighty five, ninety, ninety five, a hundred pounds and ten one twenty thirty one forty fifty one hundred and fifty at the back against one sixty one seventy eighty one ninety two hundred two hundred to my right, at two hundred pounds, any more at two hundred, two twenty, a new bidder two fifty, at two hundred and fifty, two eighty three hundred offered I'm offered three hundred to my right and selling for three hundred pounds. Thank you three hundred. Two O five, thank you. Er Lot number eighty five number eighty five is the jade pendant Lot number eighty fi er Lot number eighty five, beg your pardon, it's a vase there we are, the vase is showing for seventy pounds, at seventy, seventy five, eighty pounds at eighty pounds, eighty five, ninety ninety five, a hundred and ten a hundred and ten to my right one ten is offered and selling for one hundred and ten pounds. Thank you, one ten two O nine, thank you. Lot number eighty six Lot number eighty six I'm offering there it is for four hundred pounds, at four hundred pounds at four hundred pounds, any more at four hundred only, at four hundred, you all done? And fifty, five hundred going on? At five hundred pounds and selling all done at five hundred pounds, have you all finished at five hundred? Five hundred pounds for one O five. Lot number eighty seven Lot number eighty seven is a celadon jade carving there's the jade carving showing for two hundred pounds, at two hundred pounds, at two twenty, two fifty, two eighty, three hundred, three twenty, three fifty, three eighty, four hundred offered at four twenty four fifty going on sir? Four fi four eighty five hundred still against you and fifty six hundred and fifty seven hundred seven hundred pounds is offered to my right, at s and fifty eight hundred still against you sir eight hundred, going on? At eight hundred pounds and selling for eight hundred pounds, have you all finished at eight hundred pounds, anybody else at eight hundred? Thank you, eight hundred pounds two one four. Lot number eighty eight Lot number eighty eight the bronze model there's the bronze model showing and I'm offered a hundred and fifty for it, one fifty, one sixty, one seventy any more? One eighty, one ninety two hundred, two twenty two forty, two sixty going on sir? Two sixty, against you, two eighty, three hundred still against you going on sir? Three twenty, three fifty three hundred and fifty pounds, all done at three fifty and it's still with me at three fifty against you all three fifty, it's my bid at three hundred and fifty pounds. Three fifty commission for number seventy one. Er Lot number eighty nine Lot number eighty nine the seal there's the seal there showing Lot number eighty nine for seventy pounds, at seventy pounds, at five, eighty, eighty five, ninety, ninety five, a hundred pounds and ten, at one hundred and ten pounds, all done at one ten, any more, one twenty one thirty one forty one forty in the front row at one hundred and forty I've got and I shall sell at one forty. Thank you, a hundred and forty pounds for six one two. Lot number ninety Lot number ninety, the horn box the horn box and cover is showing for you for a hundred pounds one hundred pounds any more at one hundred pounds? All done at one hundred only? At one hundred pounds, any more at one hundred pounds? Any more, last time? Thank you, Lot number ninety one Lot number ninety one for a hundred pounds at one hundred pounds any more at one hundred pounds only? At one ten, at one hundred and ten pounds, you all done at one hundred and ten pounds? Any more at one ten? One ten. Er Lot number ninety two Lot number ninety two is the seal Lot number ninety two for thirty pounds, at thirty, thirty five, at thirty five pounds in white, thirty five only, forty, forty five fifty pounds, at fifty five, sixty, sixty five seventy I'm offered I'm offered seventy pounds on my right, seventy five eighty pounds eighty five ninety ninety five a hundred and ten twenty thirty forty one forty bid against you now one forty is here at one forty, all done? At one hundred and forty pounds. Any more? There was no other, one forty, thank you. Two O five two O five, thank you. And Lot number ninety three Lot number ninety three is the Buddha There we are, there's the Buddha up, up here on my left there it is showing for five hundred pounds at five hundred pounds I'm offered thank you, five hundred is bid, and fifty, six hundred and fifty seven hundred and fifty eight hundred at eight hundred pounds, all done at eight hundred pounds, I'm selling for eight hundred, any further bids at eight hundred pounds? Any more at eight hundred pounds? Are you bidding? At eight hundred pounds to my right. Thank you, eight hundred pounds. Two O five, the same buyer. Lot number ninety four Showing here on your left sir Lot number ninety four showing here on my left there's there you are showing for you Lot number ninety four and I have two thousand offered for them, at two thousand pounds I'm bid, at two thousand two hundred, four hundred, two thousand four, two thousand six two thousand eight, three thousand three thousand two hundred, three thousand five three thousand eight four thousand, four thousand two hundred four thousand five hundred at four thousand five hundred, four thousand eight hundred five thousand pounds five thousand five hundred six thousand six thousand seven thousand to my left and selling for seven thousand pounds, anybody else? At seven thousand, it's yours for seven thousand pounds. Thank you, the lady to my left, seven thousand and that's for number eighty hundred and seventy, thank you. Eight seventy the last. Lot number ninety five, Lot number ninety five, the cabinet Showing here against the wall the cabinet, there it is showing on the left-hand wall there, Lot number ninety five is showing for a hundred pounds, at one hundred and ten, twenty at one hundred and twenty pounds at a hundred and thirty, forty, fifty, sixty one seventy for the lady sir one eighty standing one ninety two hundred, two twenty for the lady two hundred and twenty, two forty two sixty two hundred and sixty and it's still with the lady and selling for two hundred and sixty pounds eight forty, thank you, two sixty. Lot number ninety six Lot number ninety six there we are, we've got this showing here now Lot number ninety six at eighty pounds, at eighty, eighty five, ninety, ninety five is offered I'm offered ninety five, anybody round it off for me? At ninety five, all done? At ninety five and selling for ninety five pounds, you all done? At ninety five. Thank you, eighty four, ninety five pounds. Lot number ninety seven, ninety seven, the lacquered panel there it is, showing here on my left showing at two hundred pounds, at two hundred pounds and twenty, at two hundred and twenty pounds any more at two twenty, all done? Two forty, thank you, at two sixty carrying on, sir? Two eighty, three hundred and twenty, three fifty three eighty to my left I'm offered three hundred and eighty pounds, I'll take three eighty if there's no further bid at three hundred and eighty pounds. Thank you, eight hundred and twenty, three eighty. Lot number ninety eight Lot number ninety eight a cloisonne dish we have that showing on my right this time, there we are eighty for that at eighty pounds at eighty pounds, any more at eighty only, at eighty pounds, all done? At eighty, eighty five, ninety ninety five, a hundred pounds and ten going to you at the back, going on, sir? You going on? One ten, here on my left at a hundred and ten and selling for one ten. A hundred and ten, it's yours, sir. Two one two, thank you. Lot number ninety nine Lot number ninety nine cloisonne vases, we've got one of them showing there's one of them showing there, for three hundred pounds and twenty, forty, sixty, three hundred and sixty, any more? At three eighty, four hundred coming in? Four hundred pounds, and four twenty, four forty at four hundred and forty I'm offered at four hundred and forty pounds and selling for four hundred and forty pounds against you all. That's a commission bid for one O three, four forty. Lot number one hundred Lot one hundred is the belthook there's the belthook showing. For a hundred pounds at one hundred and ten I'm bid, at one twenty, one thirty at one hundred and thirty pounds any more at one thirty, and selling for a hundred and thirty pounds, you all done at one thirty. One thirty and that's for one one eight. Lot number one O one Lot number one O one, the patinated vase there's the patinated vase showing at a hundred and fifty pounds, at one hundred and fifty pounds, one sixty, seventy, one eighty, one ninety, two hundred, two twenty to my left two twenty is offered and selling for two twenty, two forty at the back going, two sixty, thank you, two eighty at the back two eighty, three hundred? Three hundred? Two eighty at the back, at two eighty, all done? At two hundred and eighty pounds, any more at two ei any more? Two, three hundred I'll take. No. Two eighty at the back, at two eighty two eighty er three five three. Lot number one O two Lot number one O two is the lacquered bottle vases there's the bottle vases showing for, a hundred and fifty pounds, at sixty, seventy one hundred and seventy pounds at a hundred and seventy, one eighty, one ninety two hundred is offered, two twenty two forty, two sixty any more, sir? Two sixty against you near me at two hundred and sixty pounds, you all finished? At two hundred and sixty pounds two hundred and sixty pounds. Lot number one O three Lot number one O three for a hundred pounds and ten, twenty one twenty, any more at one hundred and twenty pounds,at one twen anybody else at one hundred and twenty pounds, any more? One twenty. Lot number one O four Lot number one O four military sword there's the sword showing for a hundred and fifty pounds, at one fifty, sixty, at one hundred and seventy, one eighty, one ninety, two hundred, two twenty, two forty two sixty bid I'm offered two sixty and I shall sell at two sixty, any further bids? At two sixty thank you, sir, eight three two, two sixty. Lot number one O five Lot number one O five, the terracotta carvings there's eight of them there we are, all eight of them in the framed case for three hundred pounds at three hundred pounds and twenty, fifty, at three hundred and fifty pounds any more at three fifty only, at three hundred and fifty, all done? At three hundred and fifty pounds. Three fifty. Er Lot number one O six Lot one O six, the opium set there's the opium set showing for three hundred pounds at three hundred pounds at three hundred pounds any more at three hundred only, at three hundred and twenty, three fifty, three eighty going on, sir? Four hundred, four twenty four twenty, any more? Four twenty you're going to? At four hundred and four fifty, four eighty going on? Four eighty coming in? Five hundred, five fifty six hundred offered I'm offered six hundred against you, six fifty seven hundred seven hundred to my left, at seven hundred pounds. Yours, sir, thank you seven hundred pounds two two one? Thank you. Two two one the last. And Lot number one O seven, Lot number one O seven, the one-case inro there's the inro and I'm offered a hundred and fifty to start me, at one fifty, sixty, seventy, one eighty, one ninety two hundred and twenty is bid, at two hundred and twenty is offered, selling at two hundred and twenty, two forty, two sixty two eighty, three hundred and twenty, three fifty three eighty do you want to come in, sir? Three eighty in front at three eighty and selling for three eighty thank you, it's yours, sir, for three eighty and that's for number six six one six one two six one two, thank you. Lot number one O eight Lot number one O eight Showing on your left There's the lamps showing Lot number one O eight there we are showing for twenty pounds at twenty pounds for the lamps at twenty pounds anyone anyone want them? For twenty pounds only. Twenty pounds anyone want them for twenty pounds? No? Twenty pounds? Ten pounds? No? Thank you. Lot number one O nine Lot number one O nine is er the cake stand there's the cake stand showing there's the cake stand for twenty pounds at twenty pounds again, anybody want it? For twenty pounds twenty pounds don't you want it for twenty? Twenty pounds only, ten pounds, at ten pounds, thank you, ten is offered and I shall sell at ten if there's no further bid, at ten pounds. The lady's offer, thank you, ten pounds and that's for number six eleven, thank you. Lot number one hundred and ten one hundred and ten is the bucket-shaped saki pot and cover there's the pot and cover for ten pounds at ten pounds, fifteen at the back now fifteen is offered and selling for fifteen only, at fifteen pounds, you all done? At fifteen. Yours. sir, thank you, fifteen pounds and that's eight five three. Lot number one eleven one eleven chess board there's the chess board thank you, a folding chess board for ten pounds at ten pounds I'm offered, thank you, fifteen in front twenty at the back, twenty five in front going on, sir? Twenty five, any more? Thirty pounds at thirty pounds, any more? At thirty in the back row at thirty pounds. Thirty pounds and that is for number six O three. Lot number one hundred and twelve, Lot number one hundred and twelve gentlemen, it's the bamboo picnic baskets, there we are, there's the picnic baskets showing in the front here for three hundred pounds at three hundred pounds at three hundred pounds, anyone want them for three hundred pounds? Two hundred pounds I want at two hundred pounds at two hundred pounds, anyone want them? At two hundred only, at two hundred pounds all done? At two hundred. Thank you. Lot number one one three Lot number one one three I'm now offering there we are, the brush pot there's the brush pot showing for three hundred pounds at three hundred pounds at three twenty, three fifty, three eighty, four hundred, and twenty, four fifty, four eighty, five hundred and fifty five fifty, six hundred for you, sir six hundred, six twenty six fifty six hundred and fifty in the centre and selling for six eighty seven hundred and twenty seventy fifty seven eighty eight hundred and twenty eight fifty eight eighty nine hundred and twenty nine twenty is bid on the left, at nine twenty and selling for nine hundred and twenty thank you, sir, nine twenty and that's for number eight four eight, thank you very much. Lot number one one four, Lot number one one four the kukri there's the kukri showing Lot number one one four for sixty pounds, at sixty, sixty five pounds, at seventy, seventy five, eighty is offered eighty five, ninety I'm offered ninety pounds, any more at ninety and selling for ninety pounds, if you're all finished, at ninety pounds. Ninety pounds and that's for one eight two. Lot number one one five, Lot number one one five has a revised estimate Lot number one one five, two fifty to three fifty for this one, Lot number one one five and I have a hundred and fifty offered for it, one fifty, sixty, seventy, one eighty, one ninety, two hundred and twenty at two hundred and twenty pounds, all done? At two fifty, thank you, at two fifty I've got I shall sell for two fifty if there's no further bid at two hundred and fifty pounds. Thank you. Five two three, sir One two three, two fifty Five two three Five two three, I beg your pardon. Lot number one one six one one six, the celadon jade pendant there's the jade pendant for sixty pounds, at sixty pounds, at five, seventy, at seventy pounds any more at seventy only? At seventy, seventy five, eighty pounds eighty five, ninety pounds ninety five, a hundred one hundred pounds against you, one ten to my right, against you at the back one ten to my right, at one ten and selling for a hundred and ten. Yours, sir, one ten, thank you. Six O eight. Lot number one one seven Lot number one one seven is the next to offer celadon jade er pendant another jade pendant for fifty pounds, at fifty, fifty five pounds at fifty five pounds, any more at fifty five pounds only, at fifty five, sixty sixty five seventy I'm offered I'm offered seventy to my left and I shall take seventy pounds, any more at seventy?? Seventy pounds, it's yours, sir. Eight four five Eight four five, thank you. Lot number one one eight one one eight, the opium weights there's the opium weights showing Lot number one one eight, fifty for these, at fifty, fifty five pounds, at fifty five pounds, any more at sixty, sixty five, seventy, seventy five eighty in front, eighty five ninety in front ninety pounds, going on? Ninety five one hundred pounds and ten one twenty one twenty against you one twenty in the second row at one hundred and twenty pounds eight three three, thank you, one twenty. Lot number one one nine Lot number one one nine is the next to offer globular jars and there are two in the lot, we have one showing fifty pounds for the two of them thank fifty pounds? Eh? Fifty pounds anyone? Nobody want them? Thank you, fifty is offered. I've got fifty pounds bid and I shall sell at fifty if there's no further bids at fifty pounds only at fifty pounds, you all done at fifty? Five two three, sir. Five two three, fifty pounds, thank you. Lot number one hundred and twenty Lot number one twenty there it is at the back on the left, one twenty right at the back there for three hundred pounds at three hundred pounds at three hundred pounds, any more at three hundred only? At three hundred pounds, anyone want it? For three hundred pounds, have you all finished, at three hundred pounds. Lot number one two one Lot number one two one the gilt-bronze figure there's the gilt-bronze figure showing for two hundred pounds, and twenty, two forty, sixty, two eighty, three hundred and twenty I'm bid, at three twen three fifty, three eighty now coming in ? Four hundred pounds four hundred pounds, four twenty to you, sir four fifty four eighty five hundred any more? Five hundred against you any more? For five hundred pounds standing at five hundred, all done at five hundred pounds. Thank you, five hundred for number two O nine? Yes? Two O nine. Lot number one two two Lot number two one two two, the gold lacquer shrine there's the shrine showing there it is for five hundred pounds at five hundred pounds at five hundred pounds at five hundred pounds, any more at five hundred only, at five , you all done? Opening offer at five hundred pounds thank you, Lot number one two two A one two two A is the Tibetan bell, it's in front of the rostrum here it's in front of the rostrum at two hundred pounds at two hundred, two twenty, at two hundred and twenty pounds two hundred and twenty pounds you all done at two twenty? Anybody else? At two hundred and twenty pounds. Two twenty. Lot number one two three Lot number one two three there it is, Lot number one two three for a hundred and fifty pounds, at one fifty, one sixty, one seventy, one eighty, one ninety, two hundred pounds, two twenty offered, at two twenty to my left standing, at two twenty, anybody else? At two forty two sixty two eighty three hundred three twenty three fifty three eighty four hundred four twenty four fifty four eighty five hundred five hundred is offered, standing at five hundred pounds and selling for five hundred pounds. Five hundred pounds and that is for number eight three two. Lot number one two four Lot number one two four there it is, Lot number one two four a hundred for this one, and ten is bid, at one hundred and ten pounds, at one hundred and ten pounds, any more, one twenty, one thirty going on, sir? One forty, one fifty one sixty, coming in Jim? One sixty in the back row at one sixty and selling for a hundred and sixty, one seventy standing one eighty one ninety one ninety, two hundred pounds any more? Two hundred pounds against the lady, at two hundred and selling for two hundred pounds thank you, sir, it's yours for two hundred, that's eight five four. Lot number one two five, Lot number one two five, an Indian dagger there's the dagger for fifty pounds, at fifty, fifty five, sixty, sixty five, seventy seventy five, eighty pounds eighty five, ninety pounds ninety pounds against you, sir, at ninety, ninety five standing, a hundred pounds against you, at one hundred and ten standing at a hundred and ten pounds on my right, standing at one ten. Thank you, a hundred and ten pounds for number six one O. Lot number one two six Lot number one two six is a silver bowl there's the silver bowl fifty for this, at fifty, fifty five pounds at sixty, five, seventy offered I'm offered seventy to my left, at seventy, seventy five eighty pounds eighty five ninety ninety five ninety fi one hundred offered one ten one ten to my right seated, at one ten, all done at one hundred and ten? Thank you, the lady's bid, one ten and that's for number six one e six eleven. Lot number one two seven Lot number one two seven, an okimono the okimono for four hundred pounds and fifty, at four hundred and fifty pounds at four hundred and fifty pounds, any more at four fifty, all done? At four hundred and fifty pounds any more at four hundred and five hundred, thank you, and fifty fi going on, sir? Five fifty against you at the back at five hundred and fifty pounds, you all done at five fifty. Five hundred and fifty pounds. Lot number one two eight one two eight, an okimono there we are, another one showing for three hundred pounds at three hundred pounds any more at three hundred pounds, you all done? Opening offer at three twenty, three forty going on sir? Three sixty, three eighty four hundred, four twenty four twenty coming in now, sir? Four fifty, thank you four fifty standing at four fifty and selling for four fifty, all done? At four hundred and fifty pounds, any more? Eight four one, thank you, four fifty. Lot number one hundred and twenty nine, an okimono there's another one for you for four hundred pounds and fifty, at four hundred and fifty pounds at four hundred and fifty, five hundred, five fifty going on, sir? Five fifty against you, any more? At five hundred and fifty pounds, if you're all finished at five fifty. Five fifty. Lot number one hundred and thirty Lot one thirty a koro koro and cover, there it is a hundred and fifty pounds, at one fifty, one sixty now one hundred and sixty pounds, all done at one sixty? Anybody else? At one hundred and sixty pounds, any more at one sixty? One sixty. Lot number one hundred and thirty one Lot number one three one is the container sutra container, there it is for two hundred pounds, at two hun , two twenty, at two hundred and twenty offered, at two hundred and twenty pounds any more at two twenty, two forty, two sixty, two eighty, three hundred, three twenty bid I'm offered three twenty and I'll take three twenty, any further bids at three twenty? Thank you, three twenty and that's for number two hundred. Lot number one three two Lot number one three two is showing for you, Lot number one three two for thirty pounds, at thirty, thirty five, forty, forty five, fifty pounds, fifty five standing at fifty five I've got and I shall sell at fifty five, sixty in front sixty, sixty five pounds seventy going on? Seventy five any more? Seventy five against you, are you coming in now, sir? Seventy five pounds standing at seventy five, all done at seventy five. Eight four one, seventy five pounds. Lot number one three three one three three is the sword rack there's the sword rack showing for two hundred pounds at two hun two twenty, two forty, two sixty, two eighty, three hundred bid I'm offered three hundred pounds and ta I shall take it at three hundred pounds, anybody else? At three hundred pounds I'm selling for three hundred. Three hundred pounds, number seventy six. Lot number one three four, one three four is the pipe there's Lot number one three four at eighty pounds, at eighty, eighty five, ninety five at a hundred pounds and ten one ten one twenty, thirty one thirty, forty, fifty one fifty, one sixty offered I'm offered a Part of the panel members is might be classed as partly walking wounded but endeavour to carry on during the course of the day, you will find out who's the walking wounded. Erm before we embark on the continued discussion on H two er and we are prepared to look at erm the the which says should the party include specific plans on location of the new settlement. Erm there are a number of matters which need to be picked up by the county council as a result of requests which we made on Friday and also you will note that a number of additional papers have been laid on the table. Some of which are, well will need to be covered as we proceed er with the discussion on H two and I think in particular probably the additional paper produced by will need to be introduced Mr . North Yorkshire. First of all chairman we have put in this morning erm a paper on commitments which erm I think was asked for by the panel which is this document which should have been circulated er by now. Erm if anybody has any questions or queries on that er we'll be pleased to to deal with them. Erm the second er request was for to work in respect of the Greater York area, and unfortunately my unbounded optimism erm in respect of that has not borne fruition. Er as you will be aware chairman the nineteen ninety one census to work with data is not available, yet, from the census. But there is a body of information held by the county council erm on er journey to work movements in the Greater York area collected on erm on going basis largely by consultants, erm shared by the county council er and the City council. Unfortunately all the O N D information erm on that and that binds is post code er referenced erm and to extract the data erm in a meaningful sense for Greater York will require the reworking of all the basic data and that will take some time. So there, s a difficulty on that. But we have got a paper which we produced in nineteen eighty seven which was a review of the Greater York area using travel to work statistics from the albeit from the nineteen eighty one erm er census. And that worked did lead to an amendment of the then Greater York area to the area that is defined now. And that does include that paper does include er a schedule er of work trips into er York er for the various wards erm around York. And if that would be helpful er we can certainly give this to er erm panel secretary for circulation erm today. I apologize for the difficulties on getting er data out, more recent data largely due to the way the model is constructed at the moment. What I think we are looking for, in asking for during th was a ratification of the definition of Greater York. As I see it in with the board, Greater York,now that the green belt is in a deposited local fund,includes only two small areas beyond the green belt. To the north and north west of the city. St structured numbered policy H one as it stands Provides for nine thousand seven hundred dwellings to be within the Greater York Area. And clearly from our debate the county council propose that that shall include a new settlement. It seems to me that the new settlement if my analysis is correct can only be in one of those two areas, which doesn't seem to me to be a very sensible way of proceeding. Yes I think erm I think that's a fair point and this was touched on erm on erm Thursday or Friday, I can't remember which and er in respect to I think Mr raised the issue of the specific wording of the proposed policy H one. Er and I think we would all er acknowledge er the the precise difficulties of that wording and perhaps a, an amendment may need to be considered on the second line following the list of districts. Er which refers to provided in relation to the Greater York Area rather than in the Greater York Area. Something along those lines er maybe a more acceptable erm recognition of the reality of the the boundary of the green belt in the Greater York study area. And the wording could be tightened up possibly on that basis chair er chairman. An alternative way of looking at it would perhaps be to say the Greater York Area is that area within ten miles of the city centre as is indicated by the third of the criteria set out in policy H two. Well I think there's a difficulty with that on, you then get into a difficulty on housing provision for Greater York districts. Erm to take the Greater York Area out to to to ten miles would not equate with the the calculations and the level of provision which erm have been worked out and which relate to the Greater York study area as defined erm in in in this document. But p up to ten miles, that takes you outside the limit and if if you have a new settlement for up to fourteen hundred clients, that patiently takes you outside the Greater York Area as defined by your study. Yes indeed it does erm So it must fall within the remain you know eight districts figures. Outside the Greater York. Well on the way that we've instructed erm policy H one part of the provision for the Greater York districts is part of the nine thousand seven hundred. Now quite clearly the new settlement erm when it, if and when it goes ahead will be outside erm the area of the green belt and which by definition is by and large the area of the Greater York er er study area, and I think in response to er Mr 's point, we've accepted as a need for a er a minor amendment to the wording of policy H one to reflect that er that reality. And I would have thought it could be accommodated with something like in relation to the Greater York area. But you c My impression is that you still finish up with a contradiction if you use terminology like in the Greater York area when there is and stick to the existing definition of that area. Is there a solution to this in the table which erm has ruined Mr 's weekend perhaps? Oh he's still smiling, it obviously it hasn't ruined his weekend. If, could the problem be overcome by defining the Greater York area in the way I suggested? Within ten miles of the city centre and a and make a compensating increase in the nine thousand seven hundred in line one of the third paragraph in policy H one. The table that's before us indicates that there are about sixteen hundred dwellings within the area defined by ten miles . I think to do that erm to chairman, to to define the Greater York area then to ten miles that would of course require a consistent calculation of the housing need requirement both the local need element and the hundred percent migration element which arises within that ten mile er area, to be consistent with erm the rest of the policy, and of course that calculation erm that consistent calculation er has not been done for that area. I think Mr wants to help us out. Er well I'm not sure I want to I I I I want to help you out chairman. . I I i i in a way I want to back up the point Mr has just just made. The basis of of the housing calcul housing requirement calculation which has submitted both in my evidence and and the county's evidence. Was based on calculating housing needs within that Greater York study area, roughly speaking, six miles. Taking parish members etcetera. If we are now changing the area to ten miles then the the basis of the calculation needs to be made differently. Mm. It isn't the simple matter of adding on existing commitments to an existing calculated housing need. Yep. Er it would be a different commitment and would be a different basis. Er and and therefore er unless we are changing the basis of the calculation of the housing need thereby the basis of which we are thereby judging how we meet the requirement. Erm unle unless we're actually making that change as such, then the only way forward it seems to me i i is on the lines of which of which Mr has indicated which is that erm essentially the needs of Greater York are calculated on the current Greater York study area and the requirements are made on that basis and the supply is within that area, unless it can't be made in that area in that case it goes without that area, and therefore it it it's part of the justification for the new settlement. Is there a compromise which says that rather than increasing the nine thousand seven hundred as suggested a moment ago from the county councils own point of view that nine thousand seven hundred should be decreased on a new settlement. I'm not putting forward that as my position. But that is what I understand is the county council's position. Can we just ponder that, erm . chair. county council. I mean that that is one possible approach of doing it that you instead of taking the figure of nine thousand seven hundred in policy H one you refer to it as being eight thousand three hundred, or whatever figure you might happen to come up with. And then make a separate statement on swearing the policy that er a new settlement of approximately X dwellings will be er provided in relation to the Greater York area or even round of type of form of dwelling you think is appropriate. And that is one way of doing it. Erm it's just this is one alternative, yes? But it it strikes me that you need to do some critical rewording of that policy H one in order to reflect this situation. If as I suspect from what Mr has said that that the there is some reluctance to start revamping the Greater York in quotes figures. Yes? Then we have to revamp. We have to recognize the situation but erm restructure accordingly. Any other comments? Thank you for that. Can we then come to discussing the outstanding issue of H two. Erm before we do that Mr do you want to just briefly introduce your additional paper. Mm,. your invitation erm on Friday, I've prepared a very brief statement on erm our analysis of the relative erm suitability of each of the sectors around the Greater York area to accommodate a new settlement. Erm you will see that in section one, I've identified six sectors which broadly relate to the main er the primary roots which er cross the Greater York area. And also in section one paragraph one point three I have ranked the criteria set out in policy H two plus two additional criteria of my own, in what I believe to be in their order of significance in relation to the questions that we're considering. In section three erm I set out erm my basis for the valuation of all those criterion for each of the sectors and basically I've adopted erm a fourth grade evaluation of each of the factors and you'll see on table one, which is contained within section two, erm the er the summary of that consideration. And basically the the gradings I've allowed in respect of the performance of each of the factors. Very good performance, acceptable performance, poor performance and very poor performance. Erm I would have liked to have produced some er tables and diagrams to go with this document, but you will appreciate within the time that we had available, erm that there was insufficient time available to er to prepare that but hopefully that will give you er a basis for considering the, relative merits of the various a various erm sectors around York. This is this is only just been laid on the table obviously this morning, hasn't it? Yes it has sir, yes. Yes and the county are in the same position as everybody else in not having been able to check it. Mr . . Sir we've only had this for I think for three minutes before the start of the erm of of this erm session, I'm just wondering if we could have ten minutes to read it? Yes fine. We'll have an adjourn we'll adjourn until half past ten, so you've all got chance to read this . Can we can we now recommence please. Erm before we actually get down discussing this er submission can I just say that we do have another issue to talk about at er two o'clock this afternoon and therefore it means that our discussion will, on this topic, will have to terminate at one o'clock. If we have not got through for what we need to er examine then the proposition is that we should reconvene at five thirty this evening. And the hall is available to us this evening, but I would like to con I think well I hope you will concur that I would like to conclude on H two today. So with that we proceed into er looking at H two. Can I say that we ourselves have also been drafting a set of criteria, er taking on board the various points that were made on Friday morning. Er I also have to reemphasize again that we have in no way we have made up our minds as to whether or not there should be a new settlement, but we have to proceed to discuss the issues as identified. So we were drafting a list of criteria. And equally we were beginning we we had also, discussed the way in which we would approach it sector by sector. And certainly in terms of the sec the sector approach, the one which erm Mr has produced is als almost coterminous with the with the way in which we wanted to look at it. Now can I ask first of all, are you, as we have a paper in front of us, are you happy to continue the discussion of the basis of the sector by sector approach, and in particular the sectors which have been identified by Mr ? Cos that I must say that was the way in which we would have wished to have proceeded with the discussion. We we do have to try to answer this question of whether or not there should be specific guidance about the location. If if we are minded to support a policy for a new settlement. And I frankly can see no way of being able to answer that question or attempt to answer that question without going through this form of exercise. Any dissenting voice on that? No? Mr . Well erm , North Yorkshire. I wouldn't say it was a dissenting voice chairman, erm But er following the discussions on on Friday erm I endeavoured to take erm instructions from on this particular issue which I as far as I was able to do I did. And erm the county council position is as erm I stated at the outset of this exercise. That er erm the county council feels that it's not able to move toward a preferred general location in advance of the detailed assessment of the criteria. That erm the county council is pursuing at this er at this alteration. I er and I put that in solely as er as an update on the on the county council position as I expressed er earlier in the week. Yes. Er I I mean I yes that was your attitude in the. Sorry that is the county council's view. It hasn't changed but as we said on Friday morning the D of E amongst others have sugg er expressed a view that the panel ought to try to come up with a general location if we can. And I can see no other way of proceeding than that in which we proposed at the moment. We may not be able to come to a conclusion. Cos we may not have sufficient information. We don't know yet but let us see how we go. Erm s so moving on from that we have a list of crit . Sorry Mr ? Thank you sir er , Selby District. Erm whilst clearly I'll er I'll do my best to er assist your investigation sir. It's still as as we said on Friday, places I think all the districts but certainly puts the Selby district in, in great difficulty, in in that we've already acknowledged that we feel Selby district is an appropriate location for a new settlement and there are indeed two particular road corridors that that unclear Yes I, we've we've identified these from your submission. Well I I'm in difficulty to help you chose which which would be the more appropriate. There are potential areas of search in in growth which the local authority has identified as part of the background work to local planning preparation. But clearly I'm not in a position to reveal the results of of that work in advance of it put into my memory. Well let's let's see how we go. I mean we could well be the exercise that we embark on, could actually eliminate sectors around York. And at least that would be an advance if nothing else. Can we come back to the criteria and I probably ought to refer you lar really to the I I know this is set out a little br a s rather shorthanded fashion. But I think we all know what they mean. There's a slightly different list in the table one produced by Mr , as from the erm the criteria which are set out from the section in paragraph one three of this paper. And I say that because in one three, for example, he doesn't make any reference to the need for the settlement to be free standing as avoid coalescence. Whereas it does figure as one the factors within his table. If you look at your paragraph one three Mr , under item eight where you say a bracket equals weight. You have five headings there. And if you look at the table one. You actually have six. Yes I'm grateful sir for erm pointing out that omission. Er a reflection of the speed at which it was put together. Precisely. Now if you take the table one and bearing in mind it it it's reflects reasonably well that that the factors or the criteria which we discussed on Friday morning. Are there any others which people feel ought to be added to that list? Mr I'm I I've only just l l looked at this like very er er like everybody else. But er I'm not certain that the criterion two of edge two is in there anywhere. My erm Could it should be under . Erm Well i i it could be loosely bracketed under six. I said it was a shorthanded way of Yeah. expressing the criteria. Yes, yes yeah I think I I I have to say that I I I I'm not enthusiastic about using this which is so obviously at a report in support of the particular locations, to to look objectively at the criteria. I would prefer it if er we looked at the criteria and the policy itself, but take useful information from this if if need be. Rather than use this. Mm. Because it is er let's face it is er Well le let's put it this way. In the the words of the Mikado I have a little list of own. Creeping little . Perhaps we could see that? We can use that. There is one criterion which erm I'm not clear about whether Mr has included or not. And then question of beyond two thousand and six. Whether we should include as a consideration whether this particular eighth new settlement in this particular sector would have the capacity to expand beyond two thousand and si In saying that I'm conscious that we have ducked because as a panel we have to duck. At the moment the question of how big the settlement should be , Part of the . I would be entirely happy to have erm an additional consideration relating to possible expansion beyond two thousand and six and I believe that is an entirely sensible way in which to proceed. . Mr and Mr, and then Mr . , Leeds City. I've er a comment which I think in part it relates to Miss 's observation. That is the relative importance which are attached to regional and sub- regional policies. It seems rather strange to me that something which is patently strategic should come so far down the list of factors even er below satisfactory access for example. At this stage obviously the observations which can be particular will related to existing regional and su sub-regional policies. But at the time that the county council had moved to adopt the policy, we may be in the working the context of regional policy to be issued by the Secretary of State. And that may introduce new considerations not available to us today. So I would suggest that regional and sub- regional policies need to occur much higher up the list and er perhaps I would put them at number one if not number two. W well if it wou if it would help I mean I could produce the list that we have in mind. Erm which moves certain things around. I i=in the way in which, in the order of consideration. . Yeah. Go on then. Erm, in suggesting that we could use Mr 's papers as a basis for dis Mr 's order of priorities. But simply using his list and any additional items that we have as a check list, no more than that. So I think that Mr 's point can be covered. Obviously in going through each of these lists, each of these items we want to know. Use participants a new settlement in this general location would meet that criterion. I don't think we can take the discussion any further than that, otherwise we'd . But perhaps a pig in a poke. Do you want to take that in the spirit in which it's er made? Alright? We'll move on. Now just going back to the, sorry, Mr . Yes,. We would be very happy to see Mr 's paper used as a check list. But I should like to emphasize the point that expansion beyond two thousand and six is regarded by as having considerable relevance. And that it would be imprudent in the extreme for allowance not to be made for that feature. Yes. Yes. Mr , York City Council. Can I just ask a point of clarification? Erm the phraseology under seven er which deals about satisfactory access. Do I take it to mean that when we come to discuss erm a particular road issue that would be take also to include impact upon the highway network in the area? Yes. Yes. Yeah. Well if you turn back to the various sectors. Er I I have to deal with I I say we must er Mr has put this in as number two on his list, which is local planning authority support. But can I just refer you back to the words of P B G three where it says quite clearly in paragraph thirty three. The proposal is a clear expression of local preference, supported by local planning authorities. And that must be the underlying, one of the underlying themes i i in considering er this this in considering this review of the area around York. Now in terms of the sectors erm Well I I sh probably shouldn't say this. But c c can we take er start off in the top top left hand corner of the clock face, which in fact is er Mr 's number three where he s he says the A fifty nine, the area astride the A fifty nine and B twelve twenty four within Harrogate d district. And then work our way round with the clock in that er in that way. Mr . Thank you chairman. , Harrogate Borough Council. Could I seek some clarification from Mr on what he means by the area astride the A fifty nine and the B one two two four. Because erm by the time those roads have left the green belt. Erm in the vicinity of Moor Monkton and Long Marston respectively. Er the roads are about four kilometres apart and, and a valuation would I think be pretty meaningless because conditions er along those two axes do differ in certain respects. Mr . ,. Erm there was in fact a plan submitted with erm this text. Unfortunately because of its size it could not be erm reproduced quickly this morning. However, erm the area concerned basically is the entire segment of the ring that is within Harrogate district. I've tried to relate the sectors to both the principal transport corridors and also in very broad terms district boundaries. So Just just so we're absolutely certain then, sorry if I if I can just take you back to the the l the areas spelt out in paragraph one one. Little one, A nineteen south. That is Selby district. Right Mr ? Correct sir. Selby East we might call that. East of the Ouse. The next one is also, we'll call that Selby West. Number three is Harrogate district. ? Do you want it split, Mr , or not? Or are you happy to take it under this umbrella umbrella heading ? Or happier? I think as as long,, Harrogate Borough Council. As long as long as everyone recognizes that for an area of that size, er conditions will vary within it. Much significantly, as long as that is recognized I'm happy to proceed on that . Well if you feel it should be split say so now. Erm I think we'll leave it as it is. Alright thank you. Then A nineteen north number four, that is Hambledon. Mr okay? Clear? And the last two, they're all as, far as I read it Mr in Ryedale district. Thank you. Five? Runs from Hambledon round to the east. Six? Let's try the A sixty four. How much falls in Hambledon and how much falls in Selby? On six. Mr , I turn to you for guidance on that one. Again sir. On the ground the the division between the B one three six three corridor and A sixty four north must be erm a difficult one but again I for convenience I have used the district boundary to divide the two. So are you saying that the six actually falls in Ryedale? Yes sir but erm The cu , the A sixty four north falls entirely within Ryedale. And can be described as Ryedale east, northeast? Northeast. Well as there's only one Ryedale sector perhaps Ryedale east . The implication of what the chairman just said was that area five was also in Ryedale. Is that not so ? That that's not so. Of the er No part of a area five then in Ryedale No. No it's all in Hambledon. In very broad terms. So Hambledon splits west to east. Yes I wonder if it might help you sir if I erm if I submit a copy of the plan? No. No. Mr it's, I don't think it's helpful to the panel to have these sectors straddling district boundaries. In view of our starting comment on Friday morning, acknowledging that Mr had some reservations about it, was that we had at least aim district. But Mr , sorry to come in. As I read five. You say the area astride the B thirteen sixty three broadly between the boundary of Hambledon district to the west and to the east, so it must be Ryedale, Yes. if the Hambledon boundary is on the west. Can't be anywhere else. Surely. Yes I'm sorry. It's er ,. I attempted at first to put this into Ryedale district. Erm and obviously unsuccessfully. The intention is that er this B one three six three six corridor lies broadly within the Hambledon district and its eastern most boundary is roughly contiguous with the Ryedale and Hambledon boundary. And there is an error in five under the description. Chairman. Er I wonder if this planning coincidentally, that we've put in with with the commitments which has got the district boundaries on, may be in fact er more helpful in determining the the the one three six three. I in fact would very quickly er in orange just ran the an orange pin up along the line of the one three six three as you will see, it's is primarily within,with primarily within Hambledon district. The one three six three goes out through the Sutton on Forest on Forest does it? Sutton on Forest, yeah. Well I must confess Mr it's it's difficult if we get into a situation where we've got an area straddling two districts and I don't have to say why, in some respects. If I refer you back to P P G three. Yep, yeah. . The patched lines on the plan which you have in front of you erm are only intended to be indicative. Erm we have not had a great deal of time to put this together. Er and they are merely designed to draw attention to the broad corridors which Yep. I would presume people would interpret to be contiguous with the district boundaries, where a district boundary straddles that line. Yep. How would you describe your area five in district terms please? Hambledon North. As opposed to area four which is Hambledon? Hambledon South. Thank you. So are we clear then both four and five, four certainly lies within Hambledon and five also lies within Hambledon? Is that the way we are going to bring mo move forward? Well yes, yes. Yes, thank you. Is everyone else clear about that? Mr . Sir from . I'm just having regard to criterion four of policy H two. It says have good access or be able to provide good access to the primary road network. And when I refer to the erm primary road network defined in the T P P. I see that the one three six three doesn't form part of the primary road network. And I just wondered if it would ease the discussion if we omitted that particular corridor? Well this is why we were trying to relate it to districts. Which we have now done. Which we have done. Alright? Mhm. Right. Can we now go through criteria by criteria? And you've got to try and relate this back to the areas as we have now as we now understand them. The first one identified by Mr says avoid the green belt. And there there is no doubt that the areas identified do avoid the green belt. They lie outside it. Moving to number two on his list and I'm referring to table one. Forget the weighting,we just run through the check list, just run through the check list. Local planning authority support and here I refer you back to P P G three. These words will be inscribed on your heart before we finish today. The proposal is a clear expression of local preference supported by local planning authorities. Now Mr in his table has identified, four double Xs. Now the question is, is that correct? Because my understanding of the situation is that Harrogate have expressed, I'll come to you in a moment Mr , Harrogate have expressed support in principal for the idea of a new settlement. But here they are credited with a double X, astride the A fifty nine. And Ryedale again have also expressed support for the idea of a new settlement. But they're credited with a double X. But I'm also aware in the context of the A fifty nine sector, and this may well be your point, Mr , that Leeds would have, to put it succinctly, a dim view, about a new settlement in that sector because of the fact it may draw off erm regeneration effort in in the Leeds metropolitan district. Is that the point that you wanted to make? Yes,. Yes yes it is. I think you've assumed the answer to my question which was going to be to, addressed to Mr . To clarify which local planning authorities would be party to the agreement of the location of a new settlement. Whether it be the planning authorities with er contiguous boundaries to the location of the new settlement area. Or simply those local planning authorities within the county area with whom which the new settlement proposal lay. Thank you Mr . Can I develop that Yes. point as well? And in reference to what it said. North Yorkshire in the P P G. And can I put for erm in the P P G. Could I put forward a scenario to you, which I haven't really thought through. That being that the county council and yourselves consider this strategically. Clearly the best location ought to be at point eight. Which, shall we say, we are talking about the A fifty nine, is along the A fifty nine corridor. Erm that quite clear, that is the best solution. It could e just as equally be else where. What would happen if the district council didn't support it yet the county council er supported it? And quite clearly the strategic benefits erm justified a new settlement on say the A fifty nine corridor. And really I'm looking to here. What does it mean? Does it mean that county and district have got to sign up for it? If it's and district as well. Is there not the possibility that er a district that is not happy could er prejudice what is sound strategic planning er policy? That's a fast one at this time of the morning Mr . Can I perhaps offer to give give Mr a bit more thinking time and suggest that a local plan which did not contain something which was in the structure plan, as a proposal would not be in accord with the structure plan. Could I also give Mr a bit more thinking time by going off on another angle? I think it's important in considering the question of local authority to support, to remember the basis on which the advice in P P G three is predicated. And I don't I think it is no accident that the seconds criterion is the second criterion not the first criterion. It is the second criterion because the first step is to reject the alternatives . Mm. Yeah. And therefore whilst it may be that district councils will have to take some reservations, in expressing support. And that may be a bit mild for the position they find themselves in. From our discussion last week it is clear they have rejected the alternative. Mr . . I shall do my best to answer the questions, chairman. But I I must say it fills me with trepidation. Erm as I understand the way P P G three was drafted, this was in response to the circumstances which had appertained before February ninety two. R r right around the country in all sorts of different locations, we'd seen applications coming forward on a speculative basis. The one which Can you move the microphone? Can you move the mike? Yeah, move the mike. The one which was highlighted in the H B F paper in Nottinghamshire was quite clearly before P P P P G three came out. Erm it came as no surprise to me to read the the issue of that that particular proposal. You notice right at the top of the column of that particular page, er when it's highlighting that er that history. It does say they're almost invariable deeply controversial. And in the light of this experience the Secretary of State take the view that, and then goes on to list all the factors. So it seems to me that these were a set of circumstances trying to overcome the previous bad situation which has applied. Now I I construe that, the way that's constructed to mean that er when we're say that the tide had turned against new settlements, as some districts were doing at the time this came out. We thought what that meant, er it'd certainly turn turn against this speculative proposal. And I think it would now be most unlikely for a speculative proposal that hadn't come through a planning system to succeed. Now clearly in saying that, I I can only er say what we believe. And it wouldn't, you would never know for certain until a speculative proposal was actually put to the test. Well I certainly I believe that to be the case. Now as for the difference between county and district, Mr 's point is a very very valid one. They're the authority charged with producing a strategic plan for the area. In that obviously they have to take on board the views of their constituent districts. And three or four of them like this, they have to try and come up with the the right solution. So in theory it's possible for the county solution at the end of the day to be not completely in line with what its constituent districts think. Aha. The Secretary of State, I'm sure would would obviously have to take on board what was embodied in the final structure plan. But I think in deciding his actions before the actual approval of the plan, he would ne need to take on board any difference of opinion between the county and district on an issue of this kind. And i it may be, for instance, erm that he may even have to intervene at the modification stage if something was going seriously wrong. All I all I think I would say at this stage is let's wait and see whether the county and one district are in line on the question of the the new settlement. If that happens I would think there would be a reasonable pro for succ reasonable prospect for success. And my guess would be, and it can only be a guess, that if there actually was disagreement between a county and the prospective recipient of a new settlement, then I suspect that that the Secretary of State would not want such proposals to proceed. And that's purely expression of opinion off the top of my head. I simply have no idea of how it would proceed in practice. Mm. Sorry I can't be more helpful than that. Yeah, the difficulty is at the moment of course, the Secretary of State does not, is not the erm person responsible for approving the structure plan. The the final the final desic well the decision will rest with the county council. But the Secretary of State ob has obviously got reserved power if he if he feels obliged to step in. Mm. Mr . Yeah er . Could I please draw attention er you already chairman have, but it's important from where I stand to draw attention to the words of the second criterion of the P P G. Which says that the proposal is a clear expression of local preference supported by the local planning authorities. Erm, to my knowledge and I'd be corrected if I'm wrong on this. Local preference hasn't or local views have not been canvassed about these locations that we're now discussing. So the question, whether or not there's there is a clear expression to my, to my mind cannot be answered. Second point I'd make is that in relation to the table one. Erm weighting, I'm sorry. It it's indic indic to the relevant performance in relation to the A nineteen and the A sixty four. Er they're both given very good performance. Er I presume on the basis that Selby district council have expressed a support for them. And I just need to come back to the point that my client certainly doesn't support either of them. Er and to that extent, as we have set out in our evid in our submissions. Er our client is a local employer of long standing who is concerned about the local environment and erm, objects most strongly to these locations. Er so to that extent local preference is not satisfied in that case, even though Selby district council have expressed a preference. But is it not true Mr that your client rejects the alternative of expansion of existing settlements? Er not necessarily in the way you've expressed it. Er my client expr er rejects the expansion of Tadcaster as one of the potential, as as one possible expan er er settlement, yes. Mr . , Ryedale district. I would agree with Mr that none of the proposals are a clear expression of local preference because none of them have actually been considered by the the local people within each of the districts. However, going back to the table, the second criteria local planning authorities support. Ryedale supports the principal of a new settlement. It has never answered the question whether or not it is appropriate in Ryedale. So I don't think that the two crosses which is given on the A sixty four north . Can can can yes can you just disregard the weighting. Right. Disregard the weighting. just. Well I I say that that at the best I think it it's just a question mark or a dash . Put a tick. Just put a tick or a cross, you know, which is what we're trying to do. I think it's neither in in Ryedale's case. It supports the principal but not necessarily whether or not it should be in Ryedale. Because it's Right. never been considered by members. Is, are you saying then that the best answer to the question of is there a clear expression of local preference is, don't know? But reject the option of expansion of existing settlements? . I think the question is, if it is a clear expression of local preference it certainly isn't don't know. But It's not? whether it's, whether it's Well it's don't know because no one 's ever been up, no-one's ever asked the question of the people in any of the districts as to whether, you know a new settlement in their district is appropriate. But they have obviously an the members and the local have as agreed with the principal of a new settlement to meet the assessed development needs of the Greater York Area. So in in ef in effect that question should be could be divided into two parts. Local preference, no. Local authority er support, don't know, in Ryedale's case. Do you actually know local preference answer no? Yeah. No. Yeah. I thought I'd only got the flu! Erm Suspect I shall need brain surgery by the end of the morning. How d , I'm sorry I don't understand how you know the local preference is not for a new settlement. No, I don't. I'm not saying that. I'm saying that I don't know what local preference is, in terms of where it should go. Because no one in any of the North Yorkshire area has been canvassed as to whether or not they should have a new settlement. But I do know that in s in the sort of southern southern Ryedale area, the support was definitely for a new settlement to meet the assessed needs of the Greater York area. Because it wasn't considered that that the level of housing required could be accommodated in that area. So the principal is supported both by the members and by the public. Ah. But the location isn't yet. So you have a local, you have support both by the local authority and quote the local population for the idea of a, for the idea of a new settlement ? Yes. Could, or could not be maintained depending on its location. Putting words in your mouth. But there there is no clear indication that south Ryedale or Ryedale district should be the recipient. There's no expression of support that Ryedale should be the recipient of a new settlement as yet? Because that question has not been posed. Yes. Thank you. Yeah. And in fact if if if if er we look along this line, at the moment we as I said in my introduction we have two districts or three districts who have expressed support for the principal, and of those of those one has given a clear indication that it would, this might be too, er high a phrase, welcome a new settlement, within its district. Mr , that that is probably a clear expression of the of Selby as a local authority, that's a that's a clear expression of their stance, isn't it? Er yes er it well, more more or less. Er I think perhaps er wel welcome er Well er don't er er don't use the word welcome I have indicated yes yes, alright I I will qualify the the general spirit of what was said. And now is that view also an expression of local preference or local support in terms of the public at large in Selby district? What has their their view been? , Selby district. Erm the the public at large in Selby district have er been consulted to the same degree that that that all er districts were involved in the Greater York study. So in other words, acceptance of the of the principal in preference Yes. to the alternative of of expansion of existing settlements. Right. But clearly they haven't been consulted on preferred locations. Mhm. Mr . , Hambledon district council. There are two points er chairman. Yeah. The first relates to er a point made by the senior inspector about the list in er paragraph thirty three of P P G three. I don't think that they can be taken to be in any particular order. Certainly not in a des descending order of importance. And I know that they are not prefaced by one two three or any other form of indication, which would er suggest that they are in any order. Erm, it's clearly states that a new settlement should be only contemplated where, and it's my opinion, that all those factors need to be met and they are not weighted within that er paragraph. The second point is that Hambledon's position on the new settlement erm is unambiguous. We have a clear resolution that it objects to the new settlement on the basis that it is not needed and cannot be justified. And the reasons er for that, it is not necessary to go into them again, we have been through them erm on the erm erm er previous days. I would say however, that it's not been tested whilst, and whilst there isn't a a clear expression of local preference in terms of the population, I think my elected members who represent that particular area would say that they are expressing local views when they have spoken against the new settlement. Thank you. Is it Miss or Mrs ? Can I can I just take Mr first and then come to you? Mr . Harro Harrogate borough council. Just briefly to reiterate the borough council's position. Harrogate borough council have rejected er the continued expansion of er settlements around its sector of York and villages within the York green belt. We support the principal of a new settlement. Erm but my councillors haven't yet taken a view on whether there is a possible site in Harrogate district. Er the reason for that is as already mentioned, that a comprehensive assessment hasn't been done. When that comprehensive assessment is available, er my members will take a view. Thank you. Miss for . I really just wanted to speak in support of. The point I'd like to make is that we're here representing and a number of the parish councils in the Selby area. The fact that they've chosen to have somebody representing them in objection to the new settlement proposal I think is as strong an indication as you can get that the local people don't actually support the council on this point. Yes, yep. That refers exclusively to parish councillors in Selby district? The people I'm representing are, but obviously Yep. there are other people around the table saying that for other districts . Yes your your view relates to parishes in a part of Selby district? Yes, that's right. But it it tends to be that Yep. much of the area that would be under consideration for a new Yes. yep settlement. Well it's the sector west of the Ouse, isn't it? Yes it is . It, it Yes. Yeah. Mr did you want to come back on something? No. Well are we in a position now to put ticks or crosses against two on the list in table one? In the light of what we've said? got a lot more than ticks or crosses. Sorry? got a lot more than ticks or crosses. want to, or then again, pardon? No. No, no alright, no ok. Can we now move on to item item three what criteria three is under table one. Located within ten miles of York. Well in fact the discussion on Friday morning went along the lines that the new settlement should be located within six to eight miles or six to ten miles. So I'm inclined to sort of look at it under those, er, within those distances and is there any descent with er Mr 's analysis of his sectors, that they would fit within that er, those general distances? Mr . Mr ? , Leeds City council. I simply make the observation that ten miles is a rather arbitrary figure. And that the reality of geography is that people will chose to live or develop in accessible locations. Some of these roads mentioned as though the focus of the the sectors erm have a much higher capacity and much greater speed capability than others and in terms of relative accessibility to the centre of York, probably you could come further out west on the A sixty four than on perhaps on the B one three six three, for example. This this could take you into the Leeds district as being a suitable location for a settlement which would meet this criterion. And in fact it might be useful for you to know, chair, that proposals for new settlements have been made on the A sixty four corridor within Leeds. Yeah. Yes, well I mean we're aware of that and of course we went through this question of distances on Friday. Erm, and I think there was a general agreement that we would look at this six to eight six to ten miles. Was there, was there not? I mean there are other factors which come into play, we accept that. But this is one of one of which we did agree was was a suitable factor to be considered in the er in the analysis. Would the districts agree if the area of to eight miles. That there would be areas within those sectors which would be suitable for a new a new settlement. Mr . Certainly on the A sixty four corridor there is a belt of grade two land that sweeps in west to east. Er around the eight mile limit. I would prefer it to see it extended to ten miles if that sector was chosen. Purely so that the area of land, or the area of search could be expanded to possibly avoid areas of high quality agricultural land. So you would say yes to six to ten miles but Yes question mark six to eight? Mr , sorry. Sorry. So has anybody got any com any other comments about the individual sectors in the light of that? Mr Sir. We'll have to give you a new name. . . Just dealing with Mr 's point. We have in fact done some detailed agricultural surveys in this area of York. In fact the grade two land tends to be in the eight to ten mile band, rather than six to eight. It's a matter of fact rather than rather than rather than a matter what is shown on the one inch map. Thank you. Before we get on to this next item, would it be a suitable place to break for, time to break for coffee? Er and resume at twenty five to twelve. Thank you. We've, I will remind you that we've had an expression of view from Ryedale about the district factor. Any of the other districts want to make comments about that? Any one else? Mr . , Selby district. Just just to briefly say that er I would prefer the the the ten mile limit because of the greater flexibility that it will give. Yeah. Thank you, yes sorry? Are you saying that six to eight miles would not be, you would not be able to find a location for a new settlement in It would either sector within six to eight miles? It would limit the choice. Sorry, that wasn't my question. Blatantly it would limit the choice. Is it, would it make it impossible? Well I I'm I'm sorry, I really can't respond to that. You'd lose the flexibility factor? Thank you. Any one else want to make any comments about this, or can I move on to what is headed in Mr 's criteria, area of no market demand, and one in which we had described, and it may well be coincidental, mean the same thing, be in a location where people want to live. Now who's going to make comments about the various sectors, Miss . Fiona ,. I just wanted to point out that on this criteria, it doesn't appear to be one that the county council has listed. And I think we should look at this in a, cautiously because, erm, it it doesn't refer specifically to York. I think it should be qualified and say area of no market demand related to York, settlement. This particular erm, problem with it being market demand, possibly from West Yorkshire, in certain locations. It well I say one it was one of the aspects that was that tha that cropped up in our discussion about the criteria on Friday and as far as we're concerned, what we are trying to do is not er to exclude anything from the discussion in terms of er trying to locate or find a suitable location. We can't do that at this stage. So we felt it reasonable to put that into the pot for discussion. But I I feel it should possibly be tied in with six, rather than being considered on its own. Aha,. Can we ask Mr how it was that he eliminated three sectors? Or put Xs, I beg his pardon, put Xs against three sectors? Thank you . You anticipated a point I was going to make in fact. And that is I was just a little concerned that you were possibly considering an additional criterion, as I've got a note of it here. Being in a location where people wish to live. Because that's really erm a part of what I mean by this criterion. And I think probably erm there is another issue which is equally important and that is the question that it must be a location where people who develop employment wish to locate and erm and develop enterprises. Because I see it is of fundamental importance to achieving the environmental objectives for the new settlement and making it a decent place to live. That there is a real prospect of jobs going to that new settlement. And in my view, and I think this is a view shared by the county council. At least it's in one of their statements er on the new settlement issue. Erm the areas to the south and west of north, that's erm Harrogate and the Selby sectors, erm, I think are most able to offer erm a good location. And in that respect I think the A sixty four i is the better of those three sectors because of its existing dual carriageway link. And that is the basis in which I have scored this particular criterion in my table. Can you us a bit more explanation as to why you say the first three sectors are better than the last three , in terms of employment? Well if I could refer you, ma'am, to my paragraph three point seven of my supplementary statement, erm I do indicate there erm that the factors which make me believe that a location in this sector or these three sectors erm is a better one in far, as far as employment is concerned. It's it's much nearer the strategic road network. The A one, the A one M, M sixty two and M one, than any of the other sectors. And erm as I've said before the A sixty four corridor or the A sixty four road is already an existing high quality dual carriageway road. And there is the factor that there is a need to diversify the economy of York generally erm and also erm to ensure that the new settlement has an employment component. Both to provide for some self-containment, and thereby minimize the degree of out-commuting. And also as a, a to form a sort of living erm community where there is opportunity to work locally. Mr , then Mr then Mr . Michael . In terms of being in the area where people want to live. I d I d , from certainly my experience of Greater York I don't think there is, er I I personally feel that all the sectors would be reasonably successful on that basis. Erm, I d I certainly can see the commercial success of a new settlement in the south east of York, or south west of York, but that's because it would be attracting commuters from West Yorkshire. Not not because it would be meeting the housing needs of York. Certainly we have done marketing studies of a Succe of a set in the north east of York, and they show that it would be commercially successful. And it would be attractive to people wanting to live in that area. In terms of the employment, in terms of employment, the first most important point is of course we are talking about, generating employment at a scale appropriate to the new settlement. We're not talking about a major business park for Greater York. Again, we have put in a letter from an agent which quite clearly shows in his professional opinion, that a new settlement would be successful. The employment base of a new settlement would be successful. And certainly there is a good deal of empirical evidence to show also that it would be successful. Most of the new employment creation around York has been in the northern sector, not in the southern sector. It has been commercially successful. Defton Airfield is on is the most important example. The A sixty four is capable of generating major employer gen er being attracted to major employers. And I er addressing your attention ma'am to, particularly to, the erm M A F F laboratory, which has been established at Sand Hutton, which is a maj , going to be a very major employer, located immediately adjacent to, well within this particular sector. I'm quite convinced that that the A sixty four corridor north east of York would fulfil the criterion which you refer to and and I think that in general all the sectors score reasonably well against this against this particular criterion. Mr I think. . left, erm P P G twelve and the draft P P G thirteen has a thrust of guidance there that erm talks about a closer relationship between the home and the workplace. If you look at appendix five of my statement in which I've identified erm the key employers within the Greater York area, you'll see that there's a greater concentration in the north and north east, as as Mr has just said. You've got the M A F F erm development on the A sixty four corridor. You also have a concentration of retail and leisure development to the north and north east of York, in Monk Cross, your Clifton Moor and so on and so forth. And clearly I would say that rather than to cross it in that column shown to the A sixty four north that Mr shows, it should be the converse and at least a tick, if not two. The two sectors being? Sorry I I'm I'm You're saying to you that the that you should ei that that the A sixty four corridor has a close relationship to the existing employment areas Yes. to the north . So you so so you would say the A sixty four north would be a favoured one in the context of this this criteria? Or what we like, Absolutely because we've what we're talking about. That's right because you you've an ability there to locate housing close to existing employment as well as erm leisure facilities and retail facilities and that would, in my view would follow on advice in P P G twelve and P, draft P P G thirteen. Yeah. In your opinion does that, do those comments apply to the other two sectors, north of York? Cer certainly it would be other sectors to the north of York can can draw some comfort from from that the the comment that I've made as well. What about the the other three sectors, the first three sectors? These these are the ones to the south? South and west. South and west. Yeah, well they're obviously more distance away from the key employers to they aren't so well located. Peter , North Yorkshire County Council. I suppose it's really proof of what er the approach that North Yorkshire County Council is taking on this issue because nothing is is as simple a as it seems. Mr and Mr , quite rightly as a matter of fact, suggest that er most of the employment development over the last ten years has taken place on the north side of York. That is absolutely factually correct. The reason is of course that that is where the opportunities have arisen through the planning process. On the south side of York and the south west of York, those oppor opportunities have not arisen. Because in the south and south west of York it has been very heavily constrained erm by green belt. Er, that hasn't been the case in the past with the er areas er to the north. So that's one side of the equation. On the other side of the equation if I look at Mr er sorry er Mr Mr scoring of four, I would find some of the crosses rather surprising. Er one has only to walk down the road here for example at Strensall but equally, the first point I made would be to contradict perhaps what Mr and Mr have said er because the the difference in employment distribution is a reflection of the pop planning policies that have been followed over the last ten years. How would you score the six sectors? Mr ? Well Certainly I I I would take the view that erm erm County Council would take that overall the York area overall is an area er of quite strong demand. Er but it really needs to be looked at er in some detail. I think the York area's an attractive area er er for development. While there may be nuances between different r chart, er could indicate that we haven't got any clear er how s chart, er could indicate that we haven't got any clear er how we've marked on there where there were objections to the greenbelt local plan, largely to take areas out of the greenbelt towards of the edge of the greenbelt for development. And those are quite fairly distributed er all the way round York. Erm I wouldn't want to erm to go through this this exercise scoring two ticks, two crosses er on on on each of the sectors. A because the work hasn't been done What I'm trying to do is er to say give a balanced approach which seems to me to reflect the County Council's view that er you really can't do it on the basis of a a a quick subjective assessment, it really needs to be the result of a l of a detailed body of work. I'm sorry Mr , I think we have to press you on this, can I can I take it from what you have said We have to press you because for the reasons we explained on Friday morning, we have to go through the sector sites, if only to find at the end it cannot be done. Can I take it from what you said that you would not differentiate between the sectors on this criterion? I'll repeat what I said chairman, and I hope it was helpful that in terms of er er demand, I think all sectors would indicate that there is erm er demand er development demand, marked demand erm right the way er around Greater York. What I cannot do er is advise you on how I would score one sector against another in respect of that because again, er we haven't looked at that in sufficient detail. Thank you, Mr ? Thank you chair, David , York City Council. I'd just really like to pick up on the employment argument. Erm er to pick up on what Mr said, I think it's important to differentiate between the local employment requirements of the new settlement and the strategic employment question. Mr implies that a location to the South of York er would actually be better in strategic employment terms. Now whilst I might concur with that view if it was er well related to the A sixty four, in fact immediately adjacent to the A sixty four, I think given the criteria you've got that the new settlement clearly has to avoid the greenbelt, I think that actually any of the locations being ten miles s sorry six to ten miles outside of the York urban area, would play little role in meeting the strategic employment needs of the urban area. So I think actually it at that level, these sectors are really quite uniform. Erm I think possibly what's more important is the i potential protraction of local employment to those individual locations. And erm er my view would be that either of the north north east or southern sectors could accommodate suitable levels of development to meet local need. Thank you that's helpful. Mr and then Mr . . Criterion ten of policy H two provides for a balanced unity with adequate land for employment. I think it's rather important in connection with the north eastern A sixty four sector to realize that and reference has been made to the M A F F Central Science Laboratory, that it was a condition specified by M A F F in nineteen ninety, that their site should be a green field site free of airborne pollution. And it was on that basis that they decided to go to the point near Sand Hutton where provision has now been made for them. If one realizes that there is inevitably some degree of pollution from certain types of industry, it seems rather un unlikely that that requirement of the M A F F would be satisfied, were industrial development to take place on the A sixty four northeastern corridor. Do you want to comment on that Mr or not? I mean are you saying Mr in actual fact if we take the reverse of what you what you said that the the M A F F establishment itself would would object to development being within a certain distance of its premises because of the requirements which they have in order to carry on their operations? I don't In in other words is there a safeguarding zone ? I I don't know whether M A F F would object, but they did lay down for the selection of their site. Peter , North Yorkshire, I hope Mr is not suggesting that it would be the intention of the County or the District pursuing the new settlement to er include within it er polluting industry. Quite clearly er that would not be the scenario that we would be looking at. Thank you chairman, Terry , Selby District. Erm I think Mr and and Mr between them have have covered most of what I wanted to say so I'll I'll just endorse those points but the the other matter. I think it it it's been suggested that er in s in some way that the employment aspect of the new settlement w would in some way prejudice erm regional objectors in in terms of Leeds regardment and I really just wanted to to flag up that that I can't accept that, given the scale of development that that's proposed. Erm e even if the erm the new settlement employment allowance was doubled, I can hardly see how twenty five hectares is is is going to prejudice Leeds' own er economic development plans. Particularly when when the City Council themselves are promoting in the region of a hundred hectares of of development adjacent to the A one well well outside the city . Yes yes yeah. Mr and then Mr . Just re Chris from Wood Frampton, just returning to the comments made by Mr , erm we are on behalf of the church commissioners promoting a new settlement proposal, immediately to the North of the M A F F Central Science Laboratory. Erm that isn't a constraint to consideration of new settlement sites in the A sixty four corridor. Erm when the church commissioners sold the land to erm M A F F for the Central Sc Science Laboratory, a Cordon Sanitaire was declared wh within which no development should take place which would not preclude any any sites Northeast of York. Thank you. Mr ? Paul ,. If I could just respond to erm one point which I think was made by Mr who referred to the erm the York trading er Clifton Road Trading estates. Erm we have actually taken the views of one of the developers on that site and you'll see erm the letter that we received from him is included within our appendix nine. And I think he can be regarded as having had first hand and very real experience of the problems of developing erm employment uses in the Greater York area. And he gave a very clear view that erm a new settlement in the area to the south of York would be a much better prospect as a location for new inward investment into the area. Mr are you Sorry. It's alright. Anyone else? Anyone else want to make any comments about under this item four? Can we move on and look at what Mr has er expressed as landscape impact. Er in fact the discussion on Friday was re tied back to the criterion in the County Council's er policy which says,be capable of being assimilated satisfactorily into the local landscape which in the course of the discussion, was erm extended to also take on board the possibility that it could be located where it may produce environmental improvements on the use of derelict land. And I don't think I don't think I'm leaving anything out on that and I don't think I'm misinterpreting where the discussion went on Friday. So in in terms of looking at this criterion, can you also er include within your thinking process, the need for the er or the possibility that the development of a new settlement could actually be a positive enhancement of the environment or make use of derelict land. Any comments? Mr ? Er Michael , Hambledon district Council. Erm the first point I'd like to make erm on this issue erm is that Mr erm seems to have assessed this criterion solely with reference to landscape quality. I don't think that this is a valid approach. Erm the question is one of integration. Erm variation in topography, and degree of cover are all associated with landscape quality. But these are the very factors which can assist integration into the countryside, minimizing the urbanizing impact. Looking specifically at the two areas in Hambledon, erm I would point out a Mr appears to make a distinction between the two areas, now I'm not sure on what basis Mr does that, or whether he has undertaken some detailed landscape assessment, but I can say that Hambledon has commissioned a detailed landscape appraisal for its district wide local plan, which didn't show a distinction erm generally across that area. Erm the landscape within that area is generally flat. Erm that factor has enhanced its value for agriculture and intensification has led to a wholesale loss of features. The landscape is flat and open, erm the these these factors erm have reduced inter-visibility, long distance views erm are possible over extensive areas. Those man made features which are within that landscape are particularly prominent. That's just farm buildings and farms themselves. The Council believes it would be very very difficult to assimilate a lan erm a new settlement into this area successfully and that a new settlement in this a area would have an urbanizing impact far beyond the confines of the er immediate area. Looking at the particular issue of derelict areas erm within this area, er Hambledon doesn't erm believe that there are any areas which could be reclaimed or enhanced by a new settlement. Erm and I really would ask the panel on this particular issue erm to er look critically at the suggestion in P P G three, paragraph thirty three that a new settlement could upgrade areas of low landscape value. Erm from a personal point of view, I don't really find it credible that planking down fourteen hundred houses in the Vale of York could be said to improve landscape quality. Mr ? Thank you chairman. Lindsay , er Harrogate Borough Council. Could I endorse a lot of what er Mr has said there, about er the issue being the ability of the landscape to assimilate er a major development. Not its inherent quality. Er many points which Mr has made about the nature of the landscape in the southern part of the Hambledon District, would apply equally to large tracts of er Harrogate District in terms of it being an open erm rural landscape, intensively farmed and relatively little woodland cover or topography to assist in the assimilation process. Erm I think that those are erm er disadvantages with which any er possible location in Harrogate er District would start and I don't think the assessment in Mr 's paper er accurately reflects either the criterion in the structure plan er in terms of assimilation, or indeed the nature of the landscape erm and what I know of it in the Harrogate District. Thank you chairman. Mr . Er Joe , Associates. Erm it's can I draw attention please to a a erm report which you'll find in the Michael erm submissions in appendix two. Er where this is a report of the er County Council. Er if I can get date. Er it's sixth of January nineteen ninety two. Definition of for a new settlement around York. And I I would simply draw attention to paragraph two of that report er in the second last sentence in the paragraph it says Well I'd better actually read the er the whole paragraph. It says,The report concludes that on balance, the most appropriate area of research for a new settlement Greater York is the corridor along the A sixty four T on the North East of York. This area beyond the greenbelt will shortly benefit from the dualling of the A sixty four. The area contains no mineral workings, limited high quality agricultural land, and offers scope for assimilating a new settlement into the landscape . Now if you then look at Mr 's scoring of the A sixty four north, it says,offers very poor performance . Er I simply draw the attention of the panel to that to the obvious conflict between those two er conclusions. What's your view? Well Is it ticks or crosses? That sector. M my view about this is that it's it it is it is that this exercise is that it is er something which has been done very quickly and to my mind is not capable of providing the level of assessment that would be required. No, sorry I wasn't asking for view on the exercise done by Mr . What I was asking was, in your view, does the A sixty four north sector landscape have the capacity to a absorb the new settlement? I haven't carried the exercise out but I would simply say that it's it's not valid to to do an exercise like this in the way that this is done. That's my view of it, er I I can't respond to you because I haven't done the exercise. So I can't give you my view. Do you have a view about the sector around in Selby? Around Tadcaster. Yes I I erm I I I certainly do er and I I have to I I know that you're going you that that that you may suggest that er my view it's not capable of being assimilated but I think the the the basic view I have to put forward to you is that it is not necessary. It's as simple as that. It's like Mr said, this settlement is not necessary. If however er the panel differs with my view on that then I would certainly say that the area around Tadcaster could not satisfactorily accommodate a self contained settlement of the order that is proposed without serious damage to the landscape. Why? Because of the level of urbanization that would be created in in i i in the area. Ian , Ryedale District. Erm that County Council report that Mr quoted was done without any detailed landscape assessment and I think that's a major failing of that report in its conclusions. Erm a new settlement is going to be difficult to assimilate into any landscape, to locate fourteen hundred dwellings and associated community facilities anywhere in the in the Vale of York is is gonna be very difficult. Unless you locate it either in the middle of a wood or at the bottom of a quarry. Erm I think in the first instance, an assessment needs to be done of all the la of the landscape quality and I would suggest that it ought to be directed away from from areas of high landscape quality, towards areas of a lower landscape quality. Erm the new settlement isn't r demand is there. And I chart, er could indicate that we demand is there. And I chart, er could indicate that we by structure planting. to help it to assimilate. I don't think they question necessarily assimilation of the settlement now, but assimilation in the settlement in the it becomes developed. What's your assessment of sector six in those terms? Ryedale? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I think I think in landscape terms, it's probably one of the best sectors. Erm and certainly there are belts of woodland there which could screen it to a certain extent. Erm but I I would have thought that it would have been necessary to examine that sector against all the others before reaching any conclusion as to whether or not i it could be more successfully assimilated into the landscape of that sector as opposed to anywhere else. Mr you wanted to come back? Yes just a point of clarification. Peter , North Yorkshire. The report has been referred to twice as the County Council report. That is incorrect, the report has never been considered by a committee of the County Council or indeed by the County Council. not even the between the officers who tried to er to produce it. it at best could be described as a an early attempt to make progress, but there's no commitment on behalf of the County Council or I suspect, by the relevant district councils to er that report. They also I suspect, not having seen it. C just to be accurate on the status of the the the document. I mean it was a report it must have been to the member authorities, was it a progress report or deliberations? It was a report that was it it was a report It is it is a publicly available document. Is it? It's never been as far as I'm aware to erm any committee of county or district. I think erm I think that's that's a matter of er er fact. It was pro it was an attempt by an early attempt by the officers of the Greater York technical group to try and make progress. The officers comprising that who couldn't agree on its er on its on its content. So it has no official status whatsoever and has not been a subject of consideration by the County Council. Okay thank you, thanks for the clarification. Er Mr , the Mr , Miss and then Mr . Thank you chairman. Lindsay , Harrogate Borough Council. Erm one small piece of information I erm forgot to mention erm previously which is the possibilities for derelict and degraded land within er the Harrogate sector. Erm within the six to ten mile band there are just two er fairly small er areas er which I believe are both less than ten acres in extent. At Topwith and Green Hammerton respectively. Er which I don't think would make the focus for a new settlement proposal. Mr ? , I take the view that the A sixty four north eastern sector has higher landscape value that most of the others in fact all of the others. And that therefore it would be all the more difficult in terms of er P P G three to ensure a positive environmental improvement from the construction of a new settlement. And I would also draw attention to a particular consideration namely that between the outer boundary of the greenbelt in that corridor and the area of outstanding natural beauty of the Hills, there is very little distance. Flaxton village falls almost equidistant between the two boundaries. Fiona ,. I just wanted to set out for you we don't agree with the assessment on landscape impact on the A sixty four south. Erm principally this area is wide open farmland so long views of a new settlement will be provided and it'll be very difficult to try and disguise that in any way. Erm but it it's not just the views of the settlement which I think should be under consideration here. Erm it's also the infrastructure that will be required by such a settlement. Much of the erm sector which is east of the A sixty four is very isolated from existing roads and the only access into that area is over the A sixty four or from the A sixty four. New roads that would need to be provided would therefore have to come from that direction and and it itself will cut a swathe through the open countryside. So no by the relevant district councils indicate that we haven infrastructure that goes with it will have a very big impact on that area. Mr Paul , Planning Partnership. Erm first of all, as I grapple with this problem over the weekend, it did seem to me very difficult to make any sensible assessment of integration on a at a strategic level because so clearly it is a site specific matter. It depends on the problems and opportunities in terms of hedgerows, small scale variations in topography and so on. And it occu It seemed to me therefore that really one could only consider this level o at a strategic issue by looking at the quality of the existing landscape and it seems to me, if the proposition is that you should locate a new settlement to the erm North in the Ryedale sector, er of Greater York, then you're effectively turning planning on its head because I think the usual approach is to try and steer development to less attractive areas rather than put them in better quality areas. And I think that's what underpins the advice in Planning Policy Guidance note number three which is seeking to use the new settlement as a mechanism for improving the n the er the landscape. And in that respect I agree with the sentiments that have been er given by Mr . Erm you've also asked for specific erm advice on whether there is any disused or derelict land in the sectors. I am very familiar with one sector and can assure you there is a disused aerodrome which would be eminently suitable as er a new settlement site and that's in the A sixty four south corridor. Mr . Michael . Can I just take the panel back through the er l back to basics on this matter in terms of the Greater in terms of Greater York and the the areas searched, firstly I think the first point of fact, there's no part of that sector as far as I'm aware that's subject to any landscape designations either national or local. The only county-wide survey, the one of importance to you ma'am is contained within the North Yorkshire Conservation Strategy of which I think you've been referred to already. And Ma'am that shows you I think er the chairman has it open in front of you. Erm that this is an are the whole of this area apart from the east side where which is of course greenbelt, is an area which has been defined as a as a landscape which has suffered character character loss through agricultural change or urban intrusion of a major scale. It's either major or large scale, I can't actually read from my key particularly well. But it's erm quite substantial. So we're not dealing here with an area of particularly high landscape quality in a county-wide sense or indeed a national sense. The best which you can put it is that all the whole of the area of search is an area of of moderate quality which is appreciated by the people who live within it. The main distinction I think you will find when you tour round Greater York is is that the distinction is between areas of intensive agriculture where of course you have the w which is to the west and to the south of the city, where you in fact have the highest quality of agricultural land, and the areas to the north where you have the lower quality agricultural land and therefore you have greater retention of cover. In terms of derelict land ma'am,very much a great deal. The fact is that I think in the sense that from the north west. The only criticism which has been made of the c se the A sixty four sector north east of York is that there i significant amount of cover ma'am. And that in fact lends itself to be to a new settlement being assimilated into the landscape completely in accord with the criterion of H two. And ma'am just to deal with one point which was made raised by Mr in his statement, I cannot we we have un undertaken a very detailed landscape analysis. Our landscape has concluded that there could be no no prospect of any damage to form the O A O M D i if there is development in this this sector. We are talking about s several miles ma'am and I can I can't just conceive of i of how that could could occur. And ma'am on a further point which I think is very significant when you're dealing with proposals in the A sixty four south of York, is you have to take into account not only the impact of the new settlement itself, but the impact of associated infrastructure. And of course what Mr does not refer to in any of his submissions n is the need for new settlements in that area to be have to have very long access roads. In fact the proposal which he's promoting needs a three mile new road cutting across the landscape. Which will have a very severe impact indeed and ma'am, that needs to be taken into account. goes to the question of landscape impact. And ma'am, just on a brief note of clarification, the report which has been referred to was a report prepared by the County Planning Officer, endorsed and I think was prepared in his name and was presented t to a working party of Greater York authorities. The Grea it was the Greater York authorities ma'am who who as I understand determined not to proceed with a location within the third alteration, and that was endorsed by the County Council when they first considered the draft plan. I think that's the correct factual position. The correct factual position is as I said that er the County Planning Committee or the County Council has not considered that document. Erm er it was not acceptable to the officers and the limited number of members that looked was not acceptable to them. Can I come back to you please Mr ? I'm well accustomed to being called sir. Erm on this occasion please remember we have a chairman, not just me here. More importantly, if you were doing the exercise Mr did over the weekend, how would you score the sector? On criterion five? On crite I think the A sixty four north has should be given the highest score and I think that's not not a view, that's also the view of the County Planning Officer at the time of the report. Erm I could have guessed that. Have you anything to say yourself? The A sixty four south ma'am, I I have some sympathy with Mr with Mr 's views that in fact, the A sixty four is an e area where the landscape quality's not high. However I tend to score it much much on a much lower scale because A of the need for the associated infrastructure involved, that will have a very severe impact, and B ma'am the landscape quality, there is the area is of some is of some quality, it is not an area of derelict land as I say. In the in the sense I associated with working Wigan for example. In terms of the the A nineteen also I think scores reasonably highly on this criterion, the A nineteen south cos again I I would have thought that it does lend itself to assimilation of a new settlement. The A fifty nine north, the A fifty nine the A nineteen north and the B one three six three, I agree with the district councils, it would be very difficult cos of the character of the landscape to assimilate a new settlement within them. Mr ? Thank you sir, Paul , Planning Partnership. Can I just express my e concern that erm Mr is using this examination in public as a an opportunity to knock other schemes in the Greater York area. I don't think that was the purpose of the erm the E I P and certainly my evidence has not been er produced in that way and it relates solely to sectors. Thank you. Thank you yes, I mean our purpose is not here to try and judge competing bids for the new settlement, but to try to come to if we can, objective appraisal of if we are minded to recommend the new settlement, could we in fact come up with a district location. No more than that. Miss . Fiona ,. I just wanted to clarify the point about derelict land in the A sixty four south corridor,which erm have referred to. Erm there is a disused aer aerodrome in this area, but it is in in itself to a great ex extent assimilated into the farmland around the area. This is very attractive farmland, wide open fields, very intensively farmed, erm it's very difficult to spot the aerodrome from driving round the area at all, erm some of it's been taken up and incorporated into fields. Where it hasn't, the farmers are using generally for storage areas, that sort of thing a and access. I it's not what you would call erm derelict land really. Not as defined with the D O E terms. Which are? . Anyone else wish to pursue their comments on this particular criterion? If not can we move on to six which er in Mr 's shorthand is area likely to meet Greater York needs . Er the County Council's statement. Er now then Be in locations which best serve all development needs arising in Greater York. Now are any of the sectors people consider match that or fail to match that criterion? Are some better than others? If so, which ones? Or are they all equally great? Sir Sir I was hoping that somebody else would start. Erm sir I I think this is clearly You've heard a great deal about this Yeah. I don't think I I need to repeat much of that which was said on Thursday and on Friday. There's there's I think there's general consensus among most r around most of the table that a location south and west of York would would tend to meet the needs of the West Yorkshire conurbation, rather than that of the Y Greater York area. Whereas locations to the north of York, and here we're dealing with here ma'am er dealing sir with the A sixty four north and the B one three six three and the A nineteen north would tend to serve the needs of Greater York. And certainly should be clearly be preferred on that basis. Particularly when of course one looks at w criterion eight little A. Because of course the two are inseparably linked. Mr ? Erm Joe , Associates. Er I think Michael has made the point er but could I just draw attention the regional erm the strategic and sub-regional policy point that erm I wished to emphasise er and I would refer to the Greater York study w e e of sixty one. Er says in in the second sentence of the paragraph that locations most readily accessibly to West Yorkshire conurbation are likely to stimulate competition within the housing market to the potential detriment of local residents and lead to pressure for addis additional land releases. Basically just to put some flesh on the bones of what Michael has said that that is a view of the w of the Greater York study that erm the A sixty four south corridor is more likely er to er serve the needs of Leeds then it is to serve the needs of of of York. And therefore, the point I would make is that I disagree with the weighting or the the two ticks given to the A sixty four south in in Mr 's assessment. And equally I disagree with the very poor performa poor sorry poor performance given er er in particular to the A nineteen north. Erm I think as Mr said, there does seem to be a fair degree of erm consensus around the table with the exception of that er a location in the Leeds York corridor would be less likely to serve the needs of of erm of York than than location on the north side. Mr ? Dave , Leeds City. Chair you will not be surprised to hear me coming yet again to s to raise the point about regeneration in West Yorkshire and to say that I agree with Mr and M Mr but I find myself agreeing also with Mr 's written comments in his paragraph three sixteen where he clearly points to the fact that settlement in this south west quadrant would serve West Yorkshire perhaps more so than N than York. Encouraging migration from West Yorkshire, from Leeds in particular, more so than the other sectors. Which is I think is implied by his suggestion that a settlement there would intercept some of the housing demand. In other words, people wishing to settle to to buy a house in this new settlement would competing. York residents would be competing against West Yorkshire residents. Yes yeah. You're putting a slightly different er interpretation on what he said there aren't you. Yeah. Mr . Er thank you chairman Terry , Mr . Selby district. Er just for the record really it's erm Mr Mr er 's not necessarily alone er in in his views, and and Selby District doesn't necessarily accept the view that erm development in this location would be prejudicial to West Yorkshire. Erm although we we haven't really really discussed this , I suspect that given the the scale of development proposed in in Selby District, it's it's quite likely on the basis of what I've heard from Mr , that Leeds are going to raise objections to development on on the western side of Selby District generally because that that area is just as close to Leeds. Erm that being the case, if if those objections were were sustained, er you know, going back to what was was said last week, then I think Selby might be in difficulties in in meeting its housing requirement. There are other potential locations within the district that would take a significant amount of development other than a new settlement. Mm. I find some difficulty in understanding the argument that's coming from Leeds City Council, bearing in mind the emphasis you placed last week. I shall repeat that cos I can see those in the back row couldn't hear. Mm. I find a little difficulty in understanding the basis of your argument Mr , given the point you made last week about the need for Yo North Yorkshire as a whole to cater for one hundred percent migration, so as to make adequate provision for those coming from Leeds. Dave , Leeds City. This er a question that Mr raised last Thursday of Friday and which I thought I'd clarified Leeds position on. We we draw a clear distinction between provision in Craven, Harrogate, Hambledon where constraint was suggested spread over fifteen years on dispersed housing sites. The impact of that on Leeds residents perception of the migration opportunities is quite different quite different from a new settlement on a very accessible corridor which would have to be promoted and would have to be built quickly to be to present itself as a successful venture. That would be a clear magnet to erm Leeds residents and to those seeking locations for new employment opportunities. Mr , Mr and then Mr . Tony Tony ,. I would like to see the definition of satisfactory a access extended also to include the Sorry we haven't got there yet Mr . We're still on with six. I do apologize. Just hold your fire. Mr . , Flaxton. In my opinion, taken as a proportion of travelling time by persons travelling by car from employment in the Leeds conurbation to the York area, the extra involved in travelling past York on the A sixty four, is quite slight and there's plenty of evidence that numbers of people er travel to the Leeds conurbation from the north eastern part of York by by the A sixty four regularly. Therefore the disadvantage associated with the south western sector from the point of view of attracting commuters from Leeds, is less than it might be thought. I think it's a point that was also raised by Mr in our discussions on Friday, where he said of course, with the advent of the better orbital road around York he f he he felt that it probably was not such a material factor. But I mean it's people's perceptions isn't it about travelling it's quite material. Mr ? Dave , Leeds City. Y yes chair it's all about relative accessibility and simply improving roads more distant from Leeds will make them relatively more accessible but not more accessible than locations closer to Leeds. There are people who commute to Leeds from very distant positions, but they are penny numbers. And the greater the distance, the greater the the travel time, the fewer people make that journey. And including in that travel time, must be the congestion which they will face as they approach Leeds which which already is er a difficult problem. Yeah. Mr ? Paul ,Paul , Partnership. Er Mr has referred to his preference for the release of lots of small sites on the basis that erm they will be er Leeds residents would be less aware of them than if all the sites are collected together in the form of a new settlement. I mean I think that is er nonsense quite honestly, I think any housing or industrial developer, if he has a site will promote it in erm a market and I don't think really there is a distinction bet to be drawn between either of those planning strategies on that point. Could I also just erm perhaps point out that half of the assessed development land needs for the Greater York area, certainly in respect of residential development, includes a an element for in migration and therefore it is it would not be altogether surprising if wherever the new settlement is located around York, some Leeds residents er chose to live there. Yeah. Mr . Michael . I would just take a It seems to me that quite clearly that a new settlement in the A sixty four corridor south, would stimulate migration at levels which would not otherwise have taken place and that is the key objection to it. If there will continue to be migration from from Leeds and that is obviously incorporated in the population projections produced by the County Council. The effect of a new settlement south east of York would be to increase those levels so that people with from Greater York, would find would not be able to find accommodation within the new settlement and therefore the total housing requirement of Greater York would be increased and housing needs would not be met. Mr . Roy Roy , House Builder's Federation. I have great difficulty coming to terms with all that was being said under H one about migration and the relationship to Leeds and the idea that it matters enormously in the realm exactly where this new settlement, which I hope does go ahead, actually goes. It seems to me that all that we would be doing would be substituting one area for another in effect in terms of where that development is attracted from. Er and er quite clearly is er Leeds migrants in migrants were were attracted er to to somewhere in in in the south er there would be less main migrants since we're working to a ceiling, er would be attracted elsewhere. And the reverse is also true, that if more in migrants were attracted to the north east of York then there would be people would not attracted elsewhere. Because we are working to a ceiling. Erm it would seem to me therefore that if we're working in terms of ticks and crosses, that area likely to meet Gre Greater York needs, you ought to have a tick against all of them. Thank you, anybody else want to raise anything on criterion six, or can we move to seven? Which I would like to aim to complete by lunchtime so we can resume afresh on the others at five thirty. Erm seven comes headed satisfactory access, but can I remind you of the County Council's er criterion which w which is Have good access or be able to provide good access, to the primary road network, but avoid unacceptable traffic consequences on any single part of the network. An ability to link into the rail network to provide for local commuter services into York would i would be an advantage. and coupled with that, is the possibility of maximizing or enabling the provision of improved public transport facilities. So can you er look at it in that light and you will see of course that and I can understand why Mr has done it in this way, he has actually broken down er his the approach to this to to looking at this criterion, under the three heads, road, rail and bus. Because in some sectors the rail network actually does not come into the equation. Or may not come into the equation. Any comments? On the way in which he has assessed n not the points scoring but the the assess er er assessed the various sectors although he has erm given a extra scoring to two sectors, the A sixty four south and also the Harrogate sector. This is in the rail sense. And he's underscored Selby east and also Hambledon. Mr . Chris from Wood Frampton. In assessing the impact that rail travel's going to have in terms of travel patterns form the new settlement, I think that one important consideration that the panel should have regard to is the location of York's s station relative to the City Centre. I'm s sure sir, you're aware it's outside the City walls and if you're commu commu If rail travel is possible from a new settlement to the Town Centre, the actual nu proportion of people using the rail, I would submit it would be very small, because say if you're a shop worker in er Marks and Spencers, then you've got a considerable walk from York City Station for example. Also, the main employment areas that both erm Michael and myself have referred to to the north and north east of York have no rail link. So clearly in that light I would say that rail and bus need to be bracketed together so a an ability to erm serve the new settlement by public transport becomes the key consideration. Mr . Er Joe , J C Associates. Erm on on the point about road access, I'd simply point out that the it it is acknowledged by the Department of Transport, and in fact there's a study under way I believe to to look at this, that the A sixty four in the York, Selby area er in the Leeds York corridor, is already subject to congestion and peak hour er delays. Erm the information that I have available to me would suggest therefore that the A nineteen erm when it's dualled would be a superior and therefore to get a better score erm on on that criterion. Mr ? Thank you chair. Erm I'd like to comment particularly on the impact of that the different sectors have within the City of York, cos that's clearly our main concern. Erm the City Council does act as agent for the highway authority within the City of York and actually maintains a a tra transportation model er in conjunction with the County Council with the County Surveyor. Clearly you understand from my comments last week, we consider any of the any of the options be to be bad in terms of their traffic impact on the City. But we did did take the opportunity over the weekend to actually run our traffic model er at a very crude level, I have to estimate. Er emphasis rather. To give an indication as it were which in terms of within the City of York, which would be the least worse of the options. Erm if I could sir, refer you to your ordnance survey plan which shows the the highway network as it enters the City. Yeah, carry on Mr . I think it's important for you to to recognize, you'll see form that plan that all the major radials end up on the York inner ring road. And whilst you've heard comment from Mr last week about the County Surveyor's view that the capacity of the radials really outside the City and also as they enter the City, the key impact within the City of York is on the inner ring road, because all the traffic tends to end up there. Having examined the various sectors er we've come to the view that there are three sectors which are least worst in that effect, erm which is the north east sector, south east and the south west. In terms of the impact they have on the traffic system in the city. The difference between them is I have to admit at this level, relatively marginal in terms of er which is the worst and which is the best between the three. But our conclusion is that in fact the south east sector is the er least harmful of the three, but the south west sector is the next least harmful and that in fact, somewhat surprisingly I must admit, that the north east sector is actually the worst of those three. That is because it feeds on to the most congested part of the York inner ring road which is the er Gillygate erm Lord Mayor's Walk section. Which has the most severe congestion problems. The reason why we differentiate between the south east and south west is also important because the southern of the bridges, the Skeldergate Bridge in York is by far the most heavily congested on the inner ring road and in particularly in going in the west to east direction, so the south west sector scores worse in that respect because it feeds traffic on to the most congested bridge of the inner ring road. So that's our assessment in terms of the the highway impact. Can I just comment on the on the other two criteria while I'm speaking sir to help you? Erm I think it's important to recognize in rail terms that erm the east coast main line, erm particularly obviously er the section heading north, British Rail would not allow er a new station opening on the east coast main line, so you have to confine yourselves to looking at those which have a a regional railway route. Erm and I would just comment on Mr 's er criteria assessment that I fail to see any difference really between any of the three re er regional routes in terms of the potential of opening a station on any of them. I can't see how you can score against the north east sector on that respect, er because there is there is no station currently serving the south west sector that I'm aware of, so clearly in both cases you need to provide a new station. Yeah. And finally just in terms of er public transport, I think it's fair to say that there there's probably little in it between them all because they're all very poorly served by public transport. At the present time. Yeah. Just just by way of informa information, the regional routes rail network, you're talking about the Harrogate line, the one to Scarborough and? And the Leeds line that Leeds line. that passes down to the south west sir, yes. Thank you. Mr Tony , Connell. Er with regard to the means of satisfactory access, I think it's also necessary to take into account er the need to reduce car dependency. Er this is a strategic issue and it can lead to pos a positive environmental improvement. This has been implied er in Mr 's analysis of road, rail and bus and clearly there is to be integration between all three systems but particularly er with regard to the bus er method of tran public transport as this is most likely to be accessible. The integration between road and bus certainly can be met by park and ride interchanges. And consequently I think the er probably locations of park and ride facilities around the periphery of York, is a factor that should be taken into account when selecting a most appropriate transport corridor. There is at the present time a park and ride facility on the south western side of York er on the er Tadcaster Road and er another one is being proposed on the eastern side at Grimston Bar adjacent to the A sixty f Excuse me, A sixty four trunk road. Yeah. So you you would say that was a material factor in influencing possibly er which sector you would look at? Sorry sir? I said, you you would say that was a material influencing factor, the provis the likely provision of a park and ride scheme? Indeed. Yeah. Thank you. Miss . And then Mr . Fiona ,. I really wanted to erm stress under this section the erm particular isolation again of that area in the south south west sector of York erm f from the point of view of road access in particular. This area is very isolated from existing roads, the A sixty four is the only link in. Erm re any any proposal in that sector would require quite a long lead in to the A sixty four and that obviously would be contrary to P P G twelve which requite that development should be er minimize the car journeys and the requirement for car journeys. Erm Oh sorry. .So really what I'm saying is that it h would have an undue impact on highway network and in particular on that particular erm strand of it. The County's policy actually says that it should erm avoid unacceptable traffic consequences on any single part of the network. Well it's obvious that any er settlement in that area would have an impact on the A sixty four as that's the only access into that area. Mr ? Michael . I I going to weight of of criteria first of all, I think this very great weight should be applied to this criterion because obviously if you cannot serve the new settlement satisfactorily then it shouldn't be developed in that location. In terms of taking we we have a put in a detailed traffic impact study which you'll have seen in with our report. If I can just summarize what it found. In terms of the A nineteen south, that is already operating at capacity. This of course is a trunk road. There are no plans whatsoever for its improvement, it couldn't be improved satisfactorily to se just for the new settlement. And I don't think there is any realistic way in which it could cope with the flows of a fourteen hundred dwelling new settlement. And that is also the view of our planning consulta er of our highway consultant. In terms of the A sixty four south, although it is a a dual carriageway, again it is operating at capacity in in in the stretch which you would need to serve the new settlement. And it al and proje on any projected traffic flows, you'll be operating well over capacity by the time in which the new settlement is developed. Again, it is difficult to see how that could satisfactorily cope with the demands of the new settlement as well, given its key role as a regional route. In terms of the A fifty nine and A nineteen north, again they're operating over capacity. Er at er presently operating at capacity, and would be well over capacity if if the new settlement was tagged on and again there are there is no scope or plans for their improvement. And similarly the B one three six three, the same comments apply. That leaves the only main radial which is the A sixty four north. Now there there is the scheme by the Department of Transport to upgrade it to dual it u as far to to Malton and then beyond subsequently. Ma'am, sir I should say, erm Mr makes certain comments about there are doubts about whether this scheme will go forward, we have been in contact with Department of Transport, again to try and give you the correct factual position. The the words which we have been given by the product engineer, is that the Department of Transport, and that was his words, committed to this scheme. The public consultation exercise was undertake last year to gauge public reaction. The s the the details, and stressed the details of the scheme, are currently being reexamined in the light of these comments and the surveys which are now complete. And they are now working to this timetable for the road. There will be a public the orders will be published next year in Autumn, ninety four, a public enquiry mid ninety five, decision ea in early ninety six, a start in ninety seven and completion in nineteen ninety nine. Ma'am when sir when this when this road when these when it is dualled, it will have compl adequate capacity to serve the new settlement and will be the only radial route around Greater York which could do so satisfactorily. We have I have got I we have produced for you today, some detailed plans showing you what the capacities are of the routes, what the present flows are and what the effects of the new settlement will be upon those capacities. If we could put those in to you subsequently. They are currently in the course of preparation. Cos I think this is a matter you need the factual evidence. Thank you. Now can I just can I just deal again with the question of public transport? I I give very great weight to the need for the new settlement to be on a public transport corridor. The A sixty four north is such a public transport corridor, there is already a very regular bus service along that route. Th it also has the potential to have new stations opened up along that route, both to serve existing communities and there are plans within the Southern Ryedale Local Plan already for new stations to be opened up. We have had discussions with British Rail who confirm that in principle they have no objections to such new stations. And this is a further factor in favour of the A sixty four north. The t turning to the other sectors, it's quite correct there is capacity there is there is scope for example along the A fifty nine corridor, for new stations. But there is no scope along the A sixty four south. It is I think I must emphasise, Mr refers in his evidence to the fact that there there is an existing station along this radial route. What he omits to say is that new station is south of the River Wharfe and there are no bridges over which anyone can get to that new station from the area f search. And frankly it might as well be on the moon in terms of its accessibility to the area of search. And th and can I restate the view of British Rail, there is little or no prospect of a new station being opened up on the east coast main route main line, because of the four track configuration, which I'm sure you'll have seen on your when you've come up to York by tr by train. So I think the inescapable logic of of this and I think this was accepted by and it's accepted by the County Surveyor certainly if not by the County Planning Officer, is that the new settlement for access reasons, should be on the A sixty four north east corridor. Thank you for that. Mr and then Mr . I think I'll make Mr positively the last one before lunch. Erm Michael , Hambledon District Council. Thank you chairman, there are two points I would wish to make. The first relates to a point r raised by Mr where he er asserted that the A nineteen er was to be dualled. This is not the case, there are no plans to dual the A nineteen north of York. There are proposals for a number of bypasses which are relatively limited, erm throughout the majority of its length it will remain single carriageway. The second point relates to the er issue of public transport. Erm and in particular, potential for rail access and I would like to endorse what Mr has said, and what Mr has said. Erm we believe that this is something that the panel should pay particular regard to, bearing in mind the government's advice to reduce the need for for travel. Erm and we would point out that er since the nineteen sixties there have been something like two hundred new stations opened erm on the rail network, the vast majority of these have been on Regional Railways. There are very few on Intercity routes. Those that have been opened on Intercity routes, are at major rail heads where they can perform as major transport interchanges, such as Bristol. There have been no stations opened up at settlements of this size. Mr ? Ian , Ryedale District. Yes really it's just supporting or confirming what Mr said, which we did as part of the Southern Ryedale Local Plan, we contacted British Rail, and they were not averse to the reopening of stations on the York Scarborough line, providing they were funded by private investment. Erm on that I also point out that in terms of commuting, the next stop after York is Leeds, so a settlement on the A sixty four corridor is ideally placed with regards to rail transport, to the centre of Leeds. Mr . Again, perhaps a point of clarification to be to be helpful. As far as the County Highways Authority's concerned, I think they've made it quite clear that as a matter of principle, when they considered the new settlement, the new settlement proposal was then around nineteen hundred dwellings, larger than what is being proposed at the moment. That as a matter of principle, there would be no objection in principle to a new settlement in any of the sectors that we're discussing today. But there would of course be a greater or lesser requirement for additional roadworks as a result of that proposal, which would need to be the subject of negotiation. But certainly there was no objection in principle from the County Council's Highway Authority and acting as agents for the Department of Transport, as trunk road agent, as a matter of principle, to any of the sectors that we've been discussing today. Thank you. Mr is it a very quick one? It is sir, yes, very very swift hopefully. Paul , Partnership. The work which our consulting engineers have done in conjunction with engineers from York City Council, show in very broad terms, that the existing radial routes within the Greater York area, were all in the period around about nineteen ninety one, all operating at more or less, design capacity. There is some movement either way, but in broad terms and it seems to me what proponents of other sectors are doing basically, is suggesting that their particular segment is better because of erm possible improvements which may or may not take in the future. And it is it seems to me quite within the realms of possibility that erm highway erm criteria will change and the need for upgrading of the roads would be reviewed and perhaps a different system erm of er judging them er would produce a different set of or a different improvement regime. Thank you I I have no other points Unless a has anybody got wants to pursue the communications issue after when when we reconvene at five thirty, otherwise I'm quite happy. I must say that the way the discussion has gone this morning, is n I would say, slightly disappointing because there is some attempt to make a positive contribution, but at the moment it's not necessarily pointing us quite in the direction which we would hope to go. So can I ask those of you you know to think carefully about what you want to contribute a particularly those of you who who have asked the panel to come forward with a recommendation on a location for a new settlement. That's if we're minded to approve or recommend for approval, the new settlement. Can I ask you to think carefully about those dire those issues factors which you think we ought to take into account if we want to be better informed in order to come forward with that sort of a recommendation. So I'll see you again at five thirty, can I say again I'd like to conclude H two tonight, I'm sure you all would as well. Erm let's yes alright we'll see you at five thirty, let's hope we can conclude by about seven thirty. Thank you. Good morning ladies and gentlemen. Welcome to the fifty seventh day of this enquiry. I hope, I imagine I should say perhaps, that this is the last day on which the County Council will be represented formally at the enquiry. We turn now to land north of Skelton. Mr . Right. Good morning ladies and gentlemen. We're dealing this morning with topic areas thirty nine and forty, and sites two and three. Erm can I just begin by taking the appearances first please. Sir, my name is George . I'm here in an honourary capacity as advocate and expert witness on behalf of the Skelton Parish Council,the Skelton Village Trust, I don't think there's any need to read all the other names, Mr . It's all Erm Is is it correctly set out on the day's programme? It is indeed sir. Good. Er er s i it is set out on my proof, G W Fourteen. I haven't checked the erm er wording of today's programme, but I've no reason to assume that any mistakes will have been made on that. Erm Mr I I have from you I think er six documents. There is a summary,your proof, your appendices, there's a letter dated the fourth of February from the Yorkshire Wildlife Trust, there is a special statement, and last, and only just received in the last few minutes, there is a supplementary note by Doctor on the Greater Crested Newt and its importance in relation to Skelton Pond. Sir, you have enumerated all the documents which exist on our side, and with regard to the letters erm er of the fourth of February and the twentieth of April to which you have referred, they are part of the set of appendices, and are respectively appendix eight and appendix nine. I I appreciate that point Mr , but as they arrived separately they've been given different numbers er a as simply er a matter of administrative convenience. Sir, before I open the case, er after you have taken the appearances, it is my intention with your permission to make a special statement having regard to an event in the past, and to then make submissions. Thank you. Thank you very much. please. Mr . Sir yes, I represent the County Council with respect to these objections sir, and I shall be calling Mrs to give the evidence,and she will produce a proof and a bundle of appendices which consist of two plans. Those are documents N Y Two Three Seven and N Y Two Three Eight. Thank you very much. And for the District Council, Mr . Yes sir. Sir, I'll be calling Mr . His proof is R D Eighty Two with er appendices R D Eighty Three. Thank you very much. Mr ? Yes sir. Sir, I'm instructed by Mrs . I represent those who are enumerated on the second sheet. Thank you for not Yes, thank you very much. That's quite a long list I think. Sir, you have before you I hope the proof of evidence and appendices from Mrs . Yes. Sir, with permission, the course I propose to adopt is as follows. I propose to call her, but if in the event I judge it to be unnecessary then I shall invite because I don't want to add unnecessarily to the length of these proceedings. Thank you very much indeed. .Right, Mr then please. Sir this is a special statement. I was advised by the Greenbelt Local Plan Programme Officer, on fifth March,that counsel for North Yorkshire County Council, with the apparent concurrence of counsel for Ryedale District Council, had delivered an oral submission to the inspector, that at the hearing of the case which was to have taken place on the eleventh of March, certain evidence contained in my proof of evidence issued on twelfth February should be treated as inadmissible. That submission was made at a time when I was sch not scheduled to be present at this enquiry, and was not present. A prior indication of an intention to make a submission had not furthermore been communicated. On hearing of the occurrence, I immediately requested through the programme officer a copy of the submission as delivered, but received in reply from the County Planning Officer of North Yorkshire County Council merely a statement that the County Council was requesting that an issue be not entertained by the inspector on the basis of the Council's position as set out in paragraph eight point one of its proof of evidence. Not being in possession of a verbatim record of the submission by the County, I have prepared twelve linked submissions in this matter, document G W Fourteen B, which seek to rebut with justification the point believed to have been made on behalf of the County and District Councils. If after I have read my submissions the councils wish and are permitted to make any observations on it, I request the right to reply thereto before the matter is decided by you. It is my intention to proceed to open the case proper, relating to areas D thirty nine and D forty, after the points raised in the court's submissions have been resolved. Er Mr , you have of course just been reading your special statement, erm document number five, and there is left the erm additional two pages which makes these er submissions. I would imagine that the er parties on my left have had a chance to read and consider these erm statements already. Er I I would think it very little advantage in actually reading all of this aloud now, unless you feel it is going to be some great advantage. Sir, it has always been one of my principles that planning, for its acceptance, depends on public understanding. There is present in this hall today a number of people who are concerned with the future of Skelton. They have had no opportunity whatsoever to hear the nature of the point which is due to be considered by you in relation to these submissions, and I think that it would be in the interests of public understanding of this case were they enabled to hear . Well Mr , of course the same argument could be put forward in er to justify reading all proofs of evidence in full, and er that would lengthen an already very long enquiry to er er erm a quite grotesque extent. However, as this is a particular topic, and as er I'm going to be asking the councils er and the supporters if they wish to comment on er your submissions, perhaps to assist the public understanding of these replies, er there may be some advantage in you reading er at least a summary of these er points. But I certainly don't want to take any other evidence in court other than this. Pl please continue then and and er Yes. With regard to we'll we'll deal with this relatively quickly . Yes sir. The as regards to the other evidence, you have my two-page summary, er and therefore there is no risk of erm any erm leng length of time being taken the rest of . Changes in proposed greenbelt boundaries affecting a given area, and occurring at the consultative draft stage of local plans and or pre-map stage and the formal deposit of those plans, and or between the deposit copies and proposals subsequently issued by county and local planning authorities by way of desired changes to deposit copies, militate against, and may totally inhibit in relation to that area, emergence within the meaning of the national doctrine most recently propagated in paragraph er within erm paragraph thirty two of the revised version of P P G number One. Proposals made by way of change to a deposit copy have a relatively stronger affect against emergence, owing to the lesser public consultation which attends them prior to the enquiry stage. Two. The existence of valid objections to the deposit copies and or to the proposals subsequently issued by county or local planning authorities by way of desired changes to deposit copies, also militates against the operation of the doctrine of emergence in relation to that area. Three. Impediments to emergence from more than one cause which exist at any one time in relation to the same area, are cumulative in the degree of their effects, up to a state of total inhibition of emergence prior to adoption of the plan concerned. Four. A change of greenbelt status, and changes to a proposed greenbelt boundary variously affecting the combined area known for the purposes of this enquiry as D thirty nine and D forty, north of Skelton Village, have been proposed in the deposit copies, and in the desire to change proposed by the county and local planning authorities, and sundry valid representations have been lodged relating to the exclusion of all or parts of the area of the greenbelt. The essential feature of these representations is that they seek greenbelt status,and any question of the technical means by which this is sought to be achieved, such as by washing over, or exclusion from an inset area, is immaterial to the relevance of the representation of the end desired. This is especially so as the local plan makes no reference whatever to the proposal to effectively change from a washed-over to an inset status, while the greenbelt local plan refers to that change only by the one word, quote proposed unquote, in parentheses on page twenty five of the deposit copy. In the case of neither plan was attention drawn to this fundamental change in the plans accompanying the text, or at public consultation displays, and few members of the public have therefore been aware of the prevailing washed-over status of Skelton, and consequence consequently of the intended change to it. Five. The cumulative effect of the changes proposed and the objections made, is to negate the emergence at this time of any new greenbelt boundary affecting the area of Skelton. Six. Skelton Village and the area of D thirty nine and D forty form no part of the built area of York, but are separated from it by open country. Seven. Skelton Village and the area of D thirty nine and D forty are located well within the general extent of the statutory York greenbelt, as defined by Policy E Eight Four of the North Yorkshire County Structure Plan, approved by the Secretary of State for the Environment. Eight. No inset within the greenbelt is in existence for the area,which is at this time washed-over by the greenbelt. The local planning authority refer to the washed-over status of the whole area from nineteen eighty one, in paragraph two point one point four of their proof. Nine. As a result of the village being within,and washed-over by, the greenbelt, no inset boundary exists in the vicinity. It is in my opinion axiomatic that a boundary which does not exist is ipso facto incapable of being re-aligned,but can only with ju justification be created de novo. Likewise, the physical suitability or otherwise of a boundary as which does not exist, cannot arise. Ten. In accordance with the provisions of national policy as set out in paragraph nine of Planning Policy Guidance Note Two, any alteration to the general extent of the approved greenbelt is to be proposed only in exceptional circumstances. Eleven. Any alteration within the general coverage of the approved greenbelt by way of the creation of an inset, would require justification in accordance with the second sentence of paragraph nine of P P G Two, and in the strict terms of a proposal made under approved Structure Plan Policy E Ten, as inserted by the Secretary of State for the Environment. No such proposal has been made by the county or local planning authorities. Twelve, and last. Having regard particularly to submissions five, eight, nine and eleven above, the changes currently proposed by the county and local planning authorities require to be considered in relation to the washed-over greenbelt status at present applicable to the area under which no boundary is in existence. Such consideration inter alia is given in my proof of evidence and the summary thereto, and they are therefore admissible, and of major relevance to this enquiry. Any submission to the contrary which may be or has been made by North Yorkshire County Council and or Ryedale District Council is accordingly strongly and totally refuted, for the reasons detailed in these submissions. Sir. Thank you Mr . Mr , do you wish to reply to that? Er briefly sir, yes. The deposit copy of the York greenbelt local plan showed site D thirty nine as being within the village of Skelton, and site D forty as being without in the greenbelt. Objection was made by the Skelton Village Trust to site D thirty nine being shown as being within the village perimeter. That was the only objection made to site D thirty nine ,er that it should be The objection was that it should shown to be in the greenbelt. That would be . When the proposed changes were made known, advertised, and er members of the public and other bodies were able to make representations with respect to them, site D forty was shown as being additionally within the village . Skelton Parish Council and Mr made objections to that proposed change. Those were the only two objections made to that proposed change. We therefore, sir, have before us today to consider these two sites, D thirty nine and D forty, in the context of the relevant and duly-made objections that have been made, and they are the simple question is, should these sites be in the within the greenbelt or within the inset. It's actually, sir, a fairly straightforward issue. What Mr is seeking to do now is to raise a much wider issue, it seems to us, and that is that Skelton ought to be washed-over in its entirety with greenbelt notation. That objection has never been made. It's not a duly-made objection, it's not one that he has any right to raise at this late stage. We will not entertain it sir, because it raises a whole host of wider and different issues, many of which we in fact considered yesterday in the context of Stockton, if you will recall. The objectives which the objectors are anxious to see achieved are to have these two sites shown as being in the greenbelt. That can be achieved in the context of the objections that have been duly made. What we cannot countenance though sir, is any widening o of the route that they seek to go down, to have these sites included in the greenbelt, and that's to say to entertain the argument that the whole of Skelton ought to be washed-over. The issue is straightforward, should these sites be in the greenbelt or not? That objective can be achieved er under the terms of the objections that have been made. The er need to widen it to include er a washing-over argument doesn't arise. Thank you Mr . Do you want to add anything to that Mr , or does the same point apply ? Well er sir the same point applies, and I'd only say this. Erm in relation to the er modification in the plan which er the deposit plan which put these two sites er out of the greenbelt, er Mr did make representations. Er in answer to the question Which proposed change do you object to ?he wrote Greenbelt boundary north of Skelton , and then in answer to the question Please state here the full grounds on which your objection or representations will be made , he wrote The change is contrary to my supported representations on the deposit plan . Sir, you will remember in the deposit, Skelton was inset, although these two fields were not part of the inset. So he supported the deposit. And I object to it, as I consider that O S fields seven three six five and six eight six two with the land extending westwards to the A Nineteen, should not be part of the Skelton inset area. It's plain, it's unambiguous. Mr 's concern related to two sites and two sites alone, not to the principle of insetting. Indeed, we're not aware of erm anybody . Mr , you you've er commented upon Mr 's objection that he made himself, but of course there are he is appearing for many others , Yes,. many of whom no doubt are present today. Yes. Er was the same did the same apply to the objections made by Well,we we're not aware of anybody objecting to the general principle of insetting and seeking Skelton to be washed-over. Everybody was concerned with these two fields. Thank you. Mr , I'm not quite sure t w er what your your standing is in relation to this point. Are there any helpful comments you could make? Sir, I think I have probably have no standing, and the answer to your question directly is no. Thank you. Mr , before I make a ruling on this point, did you wish to make er any further comment? Sir, one has to have in these matters regard to the practicalities of the situation. The question of washing-over and insetting is a technical planning matter in which the population as a whole is not well versed. The representations which come from members of the public and others cannot therefore be assumed in all cases to embody the approach which would be given were a a full understanding of the previous and proposed situations in the mind of those who made that proposal. This is, I am certain, the case with regard to Skelton. I have ample evidence that persons who are very aware of matters of public interest in general have been unaware at a critical stage of the washed-over status at that time of Skelton. It is I believe a result of that situation that reference to the correct , that is to say the continuation of washing-over, was not known in the documents first submitted by way of representation to various planning . Secondly, I did say that the degree of confusion has existed because the two planning authorities have jigged about with the line a great deal. It is perhaps fortunate from our point of view that we can pin ourselves, in so far as we are talking about an inset, to the actual deposit copy of Ryedale District Council, when they did get the matter right, but no body apart from them, sir, did so. Sir, I feel that regard should be had by you to the practicalities of the situation as well as to the submissions which I have made, in coming to your decision. Thank you Mr . I have of course had the advantage of considering this matter er previously, and I have had the chance also to look at the various objections that have been made. It does appear to me er that the view which has been expressed by Mr and Mr is correct, that you and your clients did not object in terms, or indeed, as far as I can see, by implication in any way, to the existence of an inset for the village. They certainly did object to the proposed changes, but they did so in terms of where it is right that the inset boundary should be placed, and as far as I'm aware there are no references in any objections to the wider question of whether or not the village should be washed-over or be inset. I have therefore to agree with both the councils, that the comments you have just made and which you make at some length in your proof on this point, amount in effect to a late objection. Neither council wants me to deal with this as a late objection. It is therefore a matter which lies within my discretion as to whether or not I take it as a late objection. I am not convinced that special circumstances apply in this case which override the which is advice given very clearly in the P P G Twelve, that, in general, late objections should not be entertained except in most exceptional circumstances. I should however indicate that to understand properly what is the appropriate position for an inset boundary, I have to look at the reasons for there being an inset at all for the village, as, as you correctly indicate, it lies plainly otherwise within the general extent of the greenbelt. It may, therefore, be necessary to examine why the two councils did not adopt the alternative approach of washing-over the village. You are, however of course, aware that this background to insetting was discussed at some length yesterday, in the context of another village. There would,therefore in any event, be no need and no advantage for me, in repeating all that was said then. And this is of course, as if I agree with the view that you expressed yesterday in a general context, although it was made specifically then in relation to one village, any recommendation I make in relation to that village, if it is based on the general principle , must apply by analogy also to Skelton, and I would have little choice but to recommend to the councils that they may wish or indeed they should, reconsider this question of washing-over or insetting elsewhere. I think I hope that that is clear. It i it is I appreciate er a difficult er course now to steer between approaching head-on an objection which is a late objection and dealing by er reference to obliquely perhaps to matters that have been dealt with elsewhere to the question of washing-over, but I'm sure that you can steer this particular course or cross this particular tightrope with success. Sir, we are much obliged to you for your consideration upon this matter, and I assure you that I shall do my best to avoid in the evidence which I shall give and in my other remarks apparently proposing a washed-over status for the village as a whole. However, it may incidentally erm come into the words that I use that erm er I'm referring to the washed-over or other status of these two sites. I shall endeavour to avoid that, and I ask your indulgence if this happens, since to a great extent one cannot erm select particular sentences erm that have not already documents. Sir, if it is your wish, I will now open the case. Please, yes. A are you going to be reading from your summary? Er when I give my expert evidence, I will read from the summary. Sir it is my wont to open er a case of this kind with a quotation. In nineteen fifty three, the Ministry of Housing and Local Government issued their Design Town and Village manual and because of difficulties attending design concepts, the manual was made up of essays by eminent planners on various topics, with the full imprimatur of the minister. A contribution relating to the English village was made by the late Thomas , and he had this to say . It has sometimes been claimed that the village is a peculiarly English invention. Whether that is so or not, the English village is, I believe, among the pleasantest and most places that men have ever built to live in,and certainly it has a physical character and appearance that is strongly its own. Whatever may be its points of similarity to, or difference from, other countries' villages as social institutions,it has very special qualities of picturesqueness, not of course to be confused with quaintness. I do not think that these qualities arise wholly, or even mainly, as it is so often assumed, from the character of its buildings and the beauty of the natural forms, such as trees, which stand in juxtaposition to them. I believe that they lie as much, or even more, in the form in the ground plan which the buildings and the natural objects together make. Sir,you have heard the virtues of various villages around York extolled at earlier hearings in this enquiry. You have heard in response to a direct question put by yourself to an expert for North Yorkshire County Council, that he regarded the village of Flaxton as making a contribution to the historic setting of York, that it had a greenbelt function . You have heard of the historical circumstances attendant on some of the villages, and you have heard of the beauty of them. We have ranged wide. Thaxton, Flaxton, Sand Hutton, Upper Poppleton, they have all come before you. Sir, today you have before you what I believe is the most important village still existing close to York, which has, over a considerable part of its area, extant at this day a medieval character and feel. Skelton is a very special village towards its north side. Sir, Skelton has made its contribution to York's housing problem in the past. An inset was at one time created for Skelton, and it resulted in a considerable amount of building on the south side. That building is not in character with the main part of the village to the north side. It is quite obviously a twentieth century excrescence, however good it may be in itself as such. Sir, Skelton has taken all of that that it could possibly stand, without destruction. To envisage any modern development at all on the north side would be catastrophic, having regard to the very special properties which there exist, qualities which contribute, undoubtedly, to the historic setting of York. Skelton is a village whose residents are proud . They are increasingly aware of their heritage. The Village Trust is a respected body which has been in existence for many years. learned contributions have been made, and in that connection, I need only refer to some which are part of the appendices for the case before you today,notedly the contribution made following recent research by Mrs on archaeological matters of significance to this particular area. I could go on for some time sir, but I will now proceed to the technical planning matters . I'm a Bachelor of Science in Estate Management in the University of London, and a Fellow of the Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors. My first main appointment subsequent to the War was in the Planning Technique Division of the Headquarters Technical Directorate, in the then Ministry of Town and Country Planning, St James's Square. During the later part of my career, I was University Estates Officer to the new University of York from the university's inception in ninety sixty three until my retirement. Skelton is a village with a long history and an attractive character in the area of the church . It is here that William the Conqueror is said to have bribed two friars to help him gain access to the City of York after he had besieged it unsuccessfully. In eleven sixty six one David le , the Keeper of the King's , was granted an allowance and certain rights here. The church,which is a gem of early English architecture, and which with the green is the focal point of the village, was built about twelve forty seven, aided by the treasurer of York Minster. There are many stylistic aspects which are reflected in this . The coverage of the conservation area, which is one of the earliest created in North Yorkshire, dating from nineteen seventy two, not nineteen seventy as written,is limited to that part of the settlement which has notable village character and contains listed buildings. It includes the present D thirty nine site, near to the sixteenth or seventeenth century Skelton Manor House, and it has important archaeological and nature conservation interests as described in reports . Skelton is well within the general area of the approved York greenbelt, and is a small free-standing settlement that was washed-over by the greenbelt in the draft Southern Ryedale District Plan of nineteen eighty one. This plan underwent the full consultation stage and was employed for over ten years for development control purposes. The Greater York study did not designate Skelton as an area for expansion until two thousand and six, and no proposal exists in other plans for the making of an inset into the greenbelt on the basis of the need for expansion. Sites D thirty nine and D forty are in any case not located within the built-up area of the settlement in terms of Greenbelt Plan Policy Four. Sir, in making reference to erm policies which erm have relevance to the question of the status of the two sites we're concerned with, I will start with those which are part of the statutory plan, that is to say the North Yorkshire County Structure Plan approved by the Secretary of State, and then proceed downwards to the more recent documents which do not employ . So in paragraph six I start with the C S P . The north side of the village could not accommodate additional development without detriment to its basic form and character in the terms of Structure Plan Policy H Three . As mentioned in paragraph twenty three of my proof, an appeal decision relating to land immediately east of D thirty nine referred to the unsuitability for development of that area,Since the character of the village would be seriously harmed . Policy H Four of the approved county structure plan precludes any development which is more than small- scale. Structure Plan Policy E Four, and er erm that is a correction sir, I have E Five down there, Thank you. Structure Plan Policy E Four provides that conservation areas will be afforded the strictest protection. Can I help you Mr ? What what are you looking for ? Thank you, I do apologize sir. Erm Right. Is it E Four you're looking for? Er no sir, er E Four I will take as read. But we now have erm following research by the Yorkshire Wildlife Trust in relation to the document that I have described as appendix eight. Erm the reference on page two of erm the Conservation Officer's er letter, Mr 's letter of the fourth of February, a reference to Policy E Six of the County Structure Plan, erm which in his expert opinion, very firmly covers sites like this one. Er I think that er I will not read any more of that letter at present, but er certainly it's not only E Four but E Six er of the C S P which applies here. I would be grateful if at some point Mr you were to deal with er Doctor 's er most recent comments on the Greater Crested Newt, since of course I've only just had those er more or less on coming into this room, and I haven't had a chance Yes. to read it or think about it. Yes sir. Erm I will in fact deal with that now as an aside, a very necessary one too. Could you start off by telling me which pond it is we're talking about? Yes. Because I just want to be sure. There are two ponds of course which are shown on There is the much larger pond Yes. to the east of Oakwood, and the smaller one west of Skelton Manor Court . Yes. We're talking about the one within erm the er area known as D thirty nine sir, I thought it might be . er which is immediately west of Manor Court. Erm sir, I don't know whether you and my friends erm on the bench opposite had an opportunity last evening of erm having glimpsed at Tomorrow's World, but I fear not, I was too busy reading your proofs. . Oh thank you sir, I'm much obliged for that. Erm I lighted on it almost by accident, and er it was very interesting in that erm the Great Crested Newt was featured, as a result of the action of the Secretary of State in refusing an application by British Coal for open-cast coal mine. And the reason was that er part of the area at a pond near the was erm an ancestral home of the newt. Erm a reference was made er by the by British Coal to erm er their erm absolute willingness to provide ponds elsewhere. The Secretary of State was not convinced er that er a habitat would be taken up er elsewhere. And sir, the letter which you have before you er dated twentieth April from Doctor , is very much on that tack. We noticed that as one of Mrs 's appendices er there was a reference to a willingness by one of her clients to provide other ponds,were development to er proceed on the area known as D thirty nine. And erm er Doctor has looked into this matter, and you will see in the fourth paragraph of his letter of the twentieth is obviously highly selective and . You can take a newt to water, but you can't make him swim. . Thank you sir. Er sir, I will leave you to read the rest of that letter. Alterations have been deposited to the County Structure Plan, and erm that took place before this hearing er before this enquiry opened. Policy E Two of the proposed Structure Plan alteration number three applies to all land outside existing built areas and countryside outside the greenbelt. And this policy would therefore preclude the development of D thirty nine and D forty . , could you just er wait for a second? Well I I think probably I can compete with the Tornadoes now by raising my voice. Right, thank you very much, that's . Yes? Thank you. Erm and Policy E Two provides that development in the open countryside will not be permitted. It goes on in more detail but that is the basis of it. So that erm would appear to preclude development of D thirty nine and D forty in any case, no need having been established. Reserves of potential development land in such locations are not provided for in any policy. We now turn to Southern Ryedale, sir. Southern Ryedale Local Plan Policy C One Three would preclude the development of D thirty nine as the development of that whole area would not enhance the character of the conservation area. I think it's worth actually looking at that policy. It reads,In conservation areas, permission will only be granted for developments including changes of use, especially from residential from residential use, providing that they enhance the character of the existing buildings in terms of design, scale, grouping, materials, and will not cumulatively substantially increase the generation of traffic, parking and other activities, beyond the environmental capacity of the conservation area . Sir, it is my opinion that any development in area D thirty nine, which is wholly within the conservation area, would have those deleterious effects, and the same applies for D forty two D forty two. Continuing with the Southern Ryedale Plan,Policy E N V One normally precludes new development outside the existing built-up areas in the absence of exceptional circumstances. It reads,New development will normally be permitted outside the existing built-up areas only where it is essential to the needs of agriculture or forestry, or there are other exceptional circumstances . While as settlement within the greenbelt, development could not normally be permitted on D thirty nine and D forty, as these are outside the built area in the terms of Policy G B Three, which we have oft considered at erm this enquiry. Policy H Seven applies in the event of Skelton being an inset area when any development would have to be within the settlement, and no more than small-scale, precluding D thirty nine and D forty. It is submitted that the whole of Skelton Village should be looked at as a unity,that there is extreme environmental value over its north part,and that were the village inset into the greenbelt, the inset boundary should be precisely as shown in the deposit copy of Southern Ryedale's Local Plan. Thank you very much. Mr please. Mr , you're probably aware that the deposit plan inset boundary for Skelton is the same as that was shown in the consultation draft of the greenbelt plan. Er yes I am. And you will probably be aware that at the consultation draft stage, which shows the same boundaries as are in the deposit plan, both the Parish Council and the Village Trust supported the inset boundary as shown drawn in the consultation draft. Were you aware of that? Can I be clear what you mean by Mr ? When you say Supported, do you mean they didn't object or do you mean they No. actually supported ? They made representations supporting the proposed inset boundary for Skelton, both the Parish Council and the Village Trust. Thank you. It's er it's page one hundred and three of the consultation draft, report on the consultation. Do I have that document? I don't think I No you may not Not at this stage in the enquiry sir, I'm not going to produce any great er any any documents . Were you aware of that er Mr ? I was not aware of that. I came into the Skelton case at a much later stage. Erm I would say however that there has been far more consistency about the view taken of the need for greenbelt protection on the part of the bodies and individuals I represent than has been shown by the two planning authorities judging from all the changes that they have propagated. And at the deposit stage,erm Mr , Skelton Village Trust made objection to site D thirty nine? Having previously supported the site D thirty nine being within the inset? Do you know when they changed their mind? No. Do you know why er the Parish Council made no objection to site D thirty nine being included within the inset at the deposit plan stage? No. Do the Parish Council object to site D thirty nine being shown within the inset? As instructed, erm I present a case which is unified on behalf of all the bodies and persons I represent. There is an objection to the whole of D thirty nine and D forty not being within the greenbelt. Well y you'll appreciate why I've asked the question er Mr , because they supported it, they made representations in support at the consultation draft stage, they didn't object at the deposit stage, and yet today, as I understand your evidence, you're telling us that they do object to site D thirty nine being shown within the inset. The objection, I repeat, is a unified objection, but I have no doubt that earnest consultations will have taken place not only by the bodies I represent in the past, but also by your own authority. I'm a little concerned here Mr . It it does seem to me that the Parish Council are of course an an elected body, who will if they have views on this subject no doubt have formal minutes which will set it out one way or the other. I'm wondering whether this might be an exceptional case, where er during cross-examination Mr might take instruction from his clients to find out what their minutes actually say. It must be a matter of record. Well i i indeed. So that was going to be my next question, I apologize Mr . as to whether or not there were any . Er as to whether there were any recor if there are any record or minutes as to when er the the change of mind occurred, er because plainly there there has been a change of mind. Now Er well th er th members of the Parish Council if there are any present as I imagine there are, will have heard my question. let's proceed and perhaps erm at a convenient moment we could take instructions as to er what resolutions if any have been made in this regard. Sir I will take this on board, but I think it comes rather badly from an authority in fact both authorities which have so shown so many confusing changes of mind about this area in the whole process since the first plan was issued, that the er details of the consideration by one of the constituent bodies of this erm objection er should be er examined er in such detail. Erm we don't know the details of the consideration that has been given by the authorities, what we are concerned with is what they are now proposing. What I believe you should be concerned with is what the erm persons I represent, bodies I represent, now wish to see happening with regard to these two sites. I think Mr what I would like to see, I don't want to go too far into the history, but I would just like to be sure that er bearing in mind this complex history given on behalf of those you are representing, that the views you are putting forward are the er current views of the Parish Council as expressed in their formal minutes. I w that is all I want to know. Yes sir. As a matter of fact I'm sure . . Mr , you and I have debated in the past er in this room er whether or not exceptional circumstances are necessary to define an inset boundary for a village which in the sketch plan of the greenbelt to have been shown as washed over. We've had that debate before haven't we? Yes, we've covered various subjects er more than once, er so much so that er I would be much obliged if you would er focus on a particular instance that I could then have an opportunity to recall . Well Mr , your memory appears to be very short. We debated it yesterday. Right, I know now what you're referring to. Er you I take it you haven't changed your mind and you still maintain that exceptional circumstances are necessary, because that is how you view, how you read paragraph nine of P P G Two? Yes, and that is because we have an approved structure plan which indicates the general extent of the greenbelt, and we're not talking here about an inner boundary or an outer boundary, we're concerned with a pre-standing settlement. You erm understand I think, or will understand Mr , that if these sites are not included in the greenbelt, that's to say if they are shown as part of the inset, so far as the greenbelt local plan is cer is concerned, they have no other designation, that's to say the greenbelt local plan doesn't purport to er allocate or to designate the land for any other purposes. Correct. It's simply the conclusion that the land doesn't serve any greenbelt purpose. Yes that would be your reasoning, yes. Now the questions we have to address here today Mr , er are whether or not er this land, these two parcels of land, serve any greenbelt functions or not. That's the principle issue between us isn't it? Not entirely. I would not exclude a consideration of the greenbelt functions served by the area, but it is not for us to question the correctness of the approval by the Secretary of State for the Environment of the general extent of the greenbelt for York. A general extent of greenbelt within which this area lies. Therefore, unless excluded from the greenbelt by a particular process, all land in this area must be assumed to have a greenbelt purpose. Well Mr , that would apply to er any land lying within a six- mile radius of the city centre. Apart from the considerations which I mentioned a few moments ago, it would indeed. Well is er Mr the issue which the inspectors ought to be er addressing themselves whether or not this land serves a greenbelt purpose, or not? I said a few moments ago that I would not exclude consideration or the need for consideration of the greenbelt purposes served. What I attempted to tell you was that there is essentially no region that in respect of any land which lies within the general area of the statutorily approved greenbelt, its mere existence within the greenbelt must be taken to mean that it has a greenbelt function. But y you a are asking the inspectors to proceed on the basis that all land within the six-mile radius of the city centre serves a greenbelt function? Unless, under some process, it has been excluded from the greenbelt, yes. And it would be excluded from the greenbelt because it didn't serve a greenbelt function? It might be excluded for various reasons. Well what's another reason? The most obvious is that er an area had been inset because of the need for expansion of a settlement. That wouldn't serve a greenbelt purpose? It would not in the future as a result of that subsequent building . That is your Haxby-Wigginton case. You do recall our argument yesterday. Haxby-Wigginton, which has been allowed by Ryedale District Council, as the result of Or its predecessor , as the result of the creation of an inset, to develop to the size of Malton. One of the er matters that er one needs to apply one's mind to in considering whether or not this land serves a greenbelt function or not, is to look at the land and assess whether or not it is more closely associated with the village or more closely associated with the er agricultural open land beyond the village. No. There is no necessary requirement to do that. And although it may be one means of looking at the site, it is not an essential part of determining greenbelt function. Is one of the matters to which the inspectors ought to be applying their mind whether or not this land is more appropriately regarded as countryside or part of the village? No, for the reason given in my last answer. Is one of the matters to which the inspectors ought to be applying their mind Would development of the site these sites amount to encroachment into the countryside? Indeed so. Well how can you decide that, without first deciding whether or not this land is part of the open countryside or part of the village? It is not necessary to incorporate the concept of being part of. It is simply necessary to ask whether the matter the whether the land is open land or not open land. The issue is whether or not the land is open land or not open land? It is essentially as simple as that. And all open land therefore Does it follow from what you say that all open land necessarily must serve a greenbelt function? I would never in a planning matter, readily make an absolute statement like that. In nearly all matters of physical planning there are exceptions. But I would say that the way to look at this site is to ask whether it is part of the built area, in other words whether it is built on, or whether it is not part of the built area, in other words it is not built on. Well that was the question that Mr asked you a few minutes ago wasn't it,er Mr ? Sir, at that stage, the emphasis seemed to be erm a connection er whether the connection was principally with other land outside or whether the connection was with the settlement, rather than the nature of the land itself. And my answers were in that sense. Do you regard Er so sorry Mr . I'm sorry sir. Er forgive me interrupting, but I I I don't understand the word that you're using Mr . When you say land is built-up, presumably you do not mean simply that there is a building that there has to be a building on the land. Er to a greater or lesser extent, land within the curtilage of that building er can also be described as built-up . Is is that correct? In general terms yes sir, one would look at the curtilage of a building, yes. . But if on the other hand the curtilage were particularly large, erm then er it it were otherwise unbuilt er it would not of necessity form part of the built area of the settlement, if the situation were on the periphery. What I'm trying to understand you'll appreciate Mr , is the difference between the test that you are putting forward, er which is whether or not it is part of a built-up area, and the test that Mr is putting forward, whether or not the land is part of the village. At the moment I'm not entirely clear what the difference is between these two forms of words. If you can help me more on that, er that would I'm sure assist my judgement. I would say sir that my approach is neither. It is to look at the characteristics of the land itself, rather than to associate it of necessity with the land on one side of it or the land on the other side of it. When we look at the characteristics of the land itself, do we have to decide whether it's countryside or not countryside? You do not necessarily have to decide that. Well what are the characteristics of this land? These sites are small fields. One's a paddock. A paddock is defined in the nineteen ninety concise Oxford as a small field. Therefore a paddock. I don't think we need to particular distinctions. . Your The site C can you look at appendix two of er Mrs 's er appendices please,Mr ? While you are finding that, could I make a general request of the counsels. It would greatly assist me er if I could have a copy of a one to two thousand five hundred plan showing these lands without any er heavy lines on them. I'm having some difficulty working out where fences go because they're obscured by these twenty foot wide er lines. Sir I've got one here . Ah. I if that could be copied er perhaps er that would be of great assistance. Thank you Mr . Er Mr , could you just repeat I er appendix two Er Mrs , yes. Right, thank you. In order to focus in on I don't think that's er Mrs 's appendix two, but i i it It it's the bigger it's the one with the bigger scale, yes. Presumably nothing turns on which plan No I I don't think it does,i save that one makes reference to features on a particular plan Er yes I think it may help . Right, yes. You've got it, have you ? Do you s you can see where it's indicated on the plan where topic area D thirty nine is? Yes. You you see the land to the er generally to the east of it where there's the large pond? Yes. A substa substantial area of open land which is shown there as being within the inset of the village? Yes. That land you obviously regard as being properly included within the inset? I've not made any comment about Skelton Hall. Do you want to make any now? Can you assist us? Do you regard that land as being within properly included in the inset or not? I've not had the benefit of walking round the grounds of Skelton Hall. And the er the boundary to the north of topic area D forty nine, indeed to the north of topic area You said forty nine. Thirty nine, I beg your pardon. Thirty nine, and topic area D forty, you'll be familiar with those boundaries? Yes. Trees, hedges, trees, and there's a track on the northern side. Indeed. And the boundary along the western side of topic area D forty is the A Nineteen Yes. and er the the vegetation alongside the A Nineteen . Yes. And those are perfectly satisfactory boundaries for greenbelt purposes aren't they? Yes. Defining greenbelt purposes. One of the points you make in your er evidence erm Mr is that because topic area D thirty nine is shown as being within the conservation area, that it ought to be included within the greenbelt. That's right isn't it? On that point, I would say that there are a number of considerations which arise as the result of that site being within the conservation area that militate against development in themselves, and this is in general well recognized on your side, and by the er er by the City Council. And you're on you're supportive of the conservation area and its boundaries? Yes. Can you look please at your a appendix one,in your bundle of appendices? Yes. And if we turn er to the last page of the first appendix, we can see the boundary of the conservation area. Yes. It's shown by the erm large dotted line, and we can see how it er follows the boundary of topic area D thirty nine. Yes. Would you turn back one page please, and look at Two pages I beg your pardon. Turn back two pages, and look at paragraph four of the report which we can see is headed Description of Conservation Area . Have you got that? Yes. Can you turn over the page again now, I want you to direct your attention to paragraph four point six of this report,which reads The boundary proposed for the conservation area is limited to that part of the settlement which retains its village character . Yes. Do you agree with that? I have no reason to disagree. Yes. Thank you Mr . Thank you very much. Mr please. Thank you sir. I shan't detain you long Mr . Mr , erm paragraphs twenty four er to thirty of your proof draw our attention to the existence of the conservation area which was being debating a matter of moments ago. Yes? Yes. Paragraph thirty one you deal with access difficulties. Paragraph thirty two and thirty three you deal with proximity of listed buildings. Paragraph thirty eight you deal with er ecological interest, and paragraph forty, archaeological interest. I think that's a fair summary of paragraph . That's right. None of those factors, er I hope we can agree, have any relevance at all do they to the issue of whether a site performs one of the five greenbelt functions? The answer to that is not straightforward. You started with paragraph twenty four, which deals with the conservation area. Yes. The characteristics Er this is a general observation. The characteristics of a conservation are are usually characteristics of special quality in environmental or building terms, and as such they are likely to promote a contribution to the quality of the setting of York where they occur within the greenbelt area . And that of course is the prime purpose of the York greenbelt. I must have been misguiding myself for a very long time Mr . I'd always understood that land should only go into the greenbelt if it was necessary to be kept permanently open, by reason of it performing one of the five purposes. Now again, where do I find in any government guidance a suggestion that the fact of the existence of a conservation area is directly relevant to the determination of whether or not land performs one of those five purposes? You have heard my opinion that in general terms, the existence of a conservation area is an indication of the likelihood of a contribution being made to the special character of the settlement and therefore to the setting of York, which is the prime purpose or the prime function of the York greenbelt. Well,as far as one is concerned with the A Nineteen, er isn't it fair to say that the northern and western boundaries are so er constructed with hedges and trees that in fact while er er one is travelling along the A Nineteen one doesn't actually have any meaningful view of the conservation area in any event? Mr , it is not necessary for a passing motorist to be able to appreciate the qualities of a settlement that he is passing. It is sufficient for the quality of that settlement to be such as to inherently improve the setting of the city . Can you see York from within the conservation area? Certainly . Yes. Yes. We'll deal with Mr 's answer if you don't mind. he can erm answer for himself. Mr , you've taken issue with the conservation area. Of course I dealt also with a large number of other factors , highways, environmental considerations, archaeology. I take it from the nature of your answer that you would in any event agree that none of those other factors which you concern yourself with have any relevance as to whether or not the land performs a greenbelt function? Certainly listed buildings do. As regards highways, they do in this case because the nature of the road pattern in this part of Skelton is such as to contribute materially to the characteristics of this ancient part of the village. I would refer you to the late . Erm it is a contribution by those er road patterns and the characteristics of the lanes, Church Lane in particular, Northfield Lane, that contribute to the quality of the environment. And we are talking about this environment, and the contribution it makes to the city of York. We are not talking about whether one can appreciate the city of York itself from here. The quality of Skelton is what we're talking about. Well I have your answer Mr , but I don't think that continuing this national . You remind us in paragraph twenty three of an earlier decision letter. And in that you er remind us of the view of the inspector that er this area has a strongly rural character. Yeah? You have that? Yes. Isn't it fair to say that that in itself does not justify greenbelt designation, what is important is if the site forms part of the countryside and makes a contribution to it? Here again I think that you're in danger of drifting from the essential feature, which is that in the absence of a requirement to take land out of the greenbelt, the whole of the area er within the general extent of the greenbelt as approved by the Secretary of State erm has a greenbelt function. Well I know you'd love to debate that with me, but we devoted a whole morning to it yesterday so I'm not going to . With regard to the inspector's decision to which you refer, it should be borne in mind that he was concerned with the effect which development would have, and where development would be suitable or unsuitable. And he said that he did not consider that Skelton should be allowed to expand so far northward. He was speaking of the area around Northfield Lane, north of Oakwood, which was a new settlement concern within the buildings themselves . Yes. Mr as I read your proof,you presume that by excluding D thirty nine and D forty from the greenbelt, that these sites will be developed. You make that assumption and it's it's essential to your case, is that is that fair? What I would say is that the power of the local planning authority to resist development on these sites would be materially reduced were the initial negative presumption against development afforded by greenbelt status removed from them. Well that is self-evidently true. Er I can't hear you. That is self-evidently true. One accepts that. The simple fact is you presume, do you not, that these sites are going to be developed? I do not make that presumption. My presumption is that there is a suggestion that development would be facilitated rather than hindered by the removal of the greenbelt protection. Well it's just as I read your paragraph fifteen point two, you say To exclude sites D thirty nine and D forty from the greenbelt presupposes the expansion of Skelton on its northerly perimeter . Nothing ambiguous about that is there? You're assuming it is going to be developed along its northerly perimeter. The movement of the boundary which you seek to create is possible only under the terms of Policy E Ten. Policy E Ten requires that the boundary be moved only if a need for expansion can be established. I hear what you say, and you know why I'm not going to debate that with you again today. You say in your proof, paragraph forty three, this is really the last point I'm going to deal with ,that the amendment to the deposit copy erm ignores several of the policies in the Southern Ryedale Local Plan. Do you have that? I have paragraph forty three. Erm C Forty One is one of the er policies which you say is ignored by the suggested amendment. I'm sorry, C Forty One? C One, sorry. C One. Do you have that in front of you Mr ? I have C , yes. C One is a development control policy, is it not? It is. Can you e please explain to me how a site's exclusion from the greenbelt in itself breaches a development control policy? Er it certainly doesn't do that. It is simply a case as I said in my summary that er er C One is a policy that is applicable , because it's a conservation area. Mm. But of course there's nothing in national policy which creates erm a prohibition upon development either in or proximate to conservation areas, is there? No, but what I have done is to give you my expert opinion that any developments within the conservation area er within the D thirty nine part of the conservation area would be likely to be destructive of the character of the ancient part of the village. I hear what you say, what you're aiming to do now, without ever having seen any form of proposal. But what about D forty? D forty is very closely associated with D thirty nine. You see, paradoxically, C One little one and C One little three in fact give a strong measure of protection to the er character of the conservation areas do they not? Yes. E N V One is another policy you say our modification offends. That's page sixty two of the deposit. Yes, I have it. Mr . Er E N V One. Again, how does exclusion of a site from the greenbelt offend E N V One? You use the word Offend. Er could you refer me to a place where I have erm er Well you say it ignores several local plan policies. So let's put it another way, how does the exclusion I I think su surely Mr the next sentence makes it quite unambiguous. The proposed change would be contrary to this policy , Mr says. Yes. My answer to that would be that er since the only permissible reason for pushing out this inset boundary would be a need for expansion, expansion involves built development, and built development would not seem to be within er the possibility of er Policy E N V One as well as within the possibility of er other policies E N V One O one moment. Mrs , I I c Mrs , I can hear your evidence as clearly as Mr 's at the moment I fear. E N V One applies to land that is perceived as forming part of the countryside. You're aware that on this side of the room Ryedale have stated in terms in their proof that they do not perceive this land as being part of the open countryside. The reference is four point two point seven . There's nothing inconsistent is there, in Ryedale's position, having made that judgement about these two pieces of land? I'm not criticizing er the erm view of the planning authorities on the grounds of lack of consistency in their interpretation of policies. I'm merely saying that their interpretation of certain policies is not coincident with my own. You refer to Policy E N V One. Mm. The reference in that policy is to development outside the existing built-up areas. Mm. I regard open land of this size as being outside the existing built-up area of Skelton. That's a matter for judgement isn't it? And the inspector will have to make that judgement in this case . Yes, I have given you my judgement on it. E N V Three is another one that er that might be offended. You say our modification is contrary to E N V Three. Yea, E N V Three as I read it is er a pure and simple development control policy. How do you say excluding this land from the greenbelt is contrary to that development control policy? Well, E N V Three is basically a damage limitation exercise, and I think that erm the qualities of this area are so great that er it would be im impossible to envisage So if I a situation relating to a new development under which there would not be damage. So if I short er short circuit the rest of my cross examination on these various policies that you say er we're in erm we're in some measure of conflict with, your answer would be in in relation to E N V Eleven and E N V Twelve which you also cite, do I put it fairly your answer would be this? Look I cannot conceive of development taking place on this land without coming into conflict with those policies. That is the essence of your position is it not? Before I answer that, I must er address myself to E N V Eleven, which relates to ponds, Right. and E N V Twelve,to habitats. Mm. I think that the summary which you gave is fair also in relation to E N V Eleven and Twelve, yes. Can I be clear please I I'm sorry Mr , can I just be clarif clarified as far as E N V Eleven is concerned, which pond this is in terms of names? It's not it's not. This pond is not listed under E N V Eleven. Er it isn't either of the er ponds No. listed in there? I think that's right isn't it Mr ? Yes. Erm I think that the exercise on ponds is not of very long standing. It's an ongoing exercise, and er we have produced er sufficient scientific evidence to show that this pond is of tremendous value. Doubtless the not prohibit development? I rely in this matter on the evidence of experts in er wildlife conservation, and that is . I don't really think there's anything to be gained by any further questioning. Thank you Mr . Thank you very much Mr . I think we'll take a break now ladies and gentlemen for fifteen minutes please. Thank you. It's the best thing of course so It's a very weird thing to be doing really isn't it? You can leave it there if you want even though it's the ladies Yeah. Thank you club house just to the left. Right. There's certainly a fancy er club house there isn't it? What's what's this fancy building here David? Squash. Oh! Is it? Right. Ah ha. why we can't get on there, on the door Yes fine. Yes there's quite a lay out in the main building. Right Croquet and squash. Bowls down the side Oh yes. It used to be about the best bowling green in the in this part of the country. Did it really? Yes. Only the one tennis court? No there's one there there's one here. Oh yes. Over there that's behind me that's Oh yes, yes. I am not sure whether it's those certainly where you can see the right players . Eileen's husband is the leading light in the bowls. Oh is he? Really? And is that ah er another cricket team altogether or what? Club altogether? That's another club. Yes. This is the club Right. Yes. I think he he had a heart attack recently. I think he is off of it now but I think he must be quite a leading light Yes yes. speak to David Brian. Oh was he? Yes. Oh! Oh! Yes yes indeed. Now, now I'm there and there aren't I? Now if you were using this this is what we would do. It's probably erm, yeah I think you'd probably have a shot at your yellow. Doesn't matter if you go off because you could come up behind it. Mm. Mm And it once Yes yes. Fine. Lynda wasn't here yesterday when er out. Sorry? You'll have to warn her about it. Well I don't think it actually needs warning about. Well I believe it does. I think it inhibits some people but she will explain. You saw the sheet didn't you? Well I didn't really look. It's irritating cos the clip won't go on the shirt. Which clip's that ? Well this microphone clip shirt. Is that the kind they wear on the television? Yes. Why do you , why doesn't it work then? Well it's, the shirt just seems to be too fine for it. Wear a tough shirt Yes. Playing a tough game tomorrow. What are you playing tomorrow? Croquet. Oh that's Saturday not Sunday is it? Yes. Very irritating because er if only I'd approached David earlier as I'd intended to. Previous weekend they had an open day at er Dulwich Croquet Club. So all were invited to go along. You were busy last Of course I was on Sunday, yes indeed. Indeed indeed indeed. Yes I couldn't fit in much croquet then could I? The implication was that it was going to be a bit warmer today wasn't it? I think the sun might come out a little later, I don't know about warmer but Mm. it's certainly going to be overcast now. have breakfast? Thank you. David and were agreeing last night how much they like the road. Made up you mean? Yes. Yes. But er I must say I don't think twice now about opening that window whereas before I only did it reluctantly because of all the dust . Because of the dust flying in . Yes, yes. Yeah. She too was saying that she had an urge to go down with her broom and sweep up the these building works. Right. I'm gonna have some breakfast, aren't you? That's an idea. They started off on grapefruit down there. Eating it, or No no, preparing. Oh, right. Shall I finish it? Yes please. Oh, god bless our daughter. Hello dear. I've never seen such dry grapefruit. I ought to complain really. It's such, such a time wasting procedure when you've got to take things back. Where did they come from? Sainsbury's. Mm. It's the same sort we had before that have been so good. And the last couple of weeks I bought the cheaper ones. Yes. And that was forty eight pence for one grapefruit because it was pink. Doesn't even look pink, does it? No. Well I think you complain. I don't think you have to take it back, I didn't take that chicken back to Safeway's if you remember. What chicken was that? The one that smelt. Did you complain? Yes. Don't you remember that? I remember the chicken. But I don't remember Some months ago. I took the label back. Didn't take, didn't bother with the chicken. And she didn't, she scarcely even looked at the label. She took my word for it. Unfortunately because it, it was a special sell today job with a reduction off others I didn't get much money back. And then went and bought another fresh chicken had to pay even more money for it. . Ah. Well it's incredible how little mail, and there's nothing on fax or telex either. They're all on holiday perhaps half term. This is not nice. Looks revolting. Mm. Well. Well don't bother, we'll take it back. Really not good. Extraordinary. Will you have toast? Cake? Sorry, will you have some toast? Did you see that erm letter in the paper the other day about the, the introduction of sliced bread because there's been a bit of a correspondence about it? Yes sixty years ago or something. Yes. And it's five sixteenths of an inch thick by ordinary buttering and half an inch thick for toast. And about nineteen twenty eight or something wasn't it? I was going to write to Long Tall Sally can't make up my mind if I should or I shouldn't but it has got those little Unfortunately it's got a sort of general grubbiness to it as well, hasn't it? Well. But that is because it doesn't come white any more when you wash it. Mm. You can't wash the white . No, no you can't. Thank you for getting this tomato juice specially from Safeway's. When I go on half term I ought to all things. Actually has been rather What? Just not enough,happening? Break. Enough break yes. That's right. organized. Not enough change in your rate. Yeah. I feel clearer in my mind about which is a help. And I don't feel clear of things to do which is very miserable Well you're not doing your reports till after that time are you? No they have to be in by the twenty sixth of June. And the ten days after open day are going to be mad. Twenty six days, yes, ten days. You've got sixteen days to do them in in theory. Well I won't have really will I if Is that the earlier day you all complained about? three days on. And we asked for an extra ten days. At the moment we've got three. Did you get any explanations why it was all required in earlier? No. She just feels she wanted the time to do it in her time. calling the tune. As long as you don't do it too often. Don't do it too often just call the tune without justifying it. People get a bit resentful. Yes. Do you think that in all schools the head always looked at all the reports? When I was at school they hadn't signed them. every school signed them. I suspect Mrs feels she ought to be signing them not the . That pot's finished now. What a funny idea this queue down parks isn't it? Some people obviously overdo it. Mm. Did you see that thing on television last night? got their hats back. I'm interested there were women mixed in with them. Just the same uniform. I didn't notice that. Look at this lovely picture of this High Commissioner in Sri Lanka who's been booted out in his Morris Minor. Somebody is about to set up Who pays? convertible by the look of it, still. Mm about to set up a factory in Sri Lanka to make Morris Minor parts. To rebuild them. Will they find him another job now? What do they do then then? Well he's employed by the Foreign Office. Mm. So will they send him somewhere else? Probably. Or they'll keep him in London. Sri Lankan desk or something. Wonder what happened to . after Washington. He'll probably merge back into the Department of Transport. Might do something else in the environment. Oh there was some talk of going somewhere else. Oh was there? Mm. Well I mean, not an offer but They would like to. Mm. I don't know if , but it's on the cards that one could. Oh. Roy's idea was that er might get some highly paid job in industry. Aviation or something. Are you making more toast? Oh yes, yes I shall. Gosh I'm not thinking straight. I'll make some more. bit addictive with this at times. That's why I try . It's, it's sitting down that's addictive is it? Not having breakfast. Having breakfast when you're sitting down. You don't actually You mean you might get into a good habit? late to school. I must say I like it. I'll tell you what. Erm go without lunch to make up for it. To make up for what? My having my normal breakfast? Oh it's just me that's got to give up lunch is it? Well you could actually have two meals today, for a change. . That, that special orange and something honey marmalade. Oh, the gift one. Sweet orange marmalade with cider in. It was sweet wasn't it? It was sweet, but it was pleasant. Couldn't taste the cider could you? No. You rarely can can you? My home-made of three years ago. Oh yes. Good, good and solid. Thick, thick marmalade. Nice. A bit thick. I like it, like that. I think Lizzie's marmalade was particularly addictive. Oh I did, mm, I liked that. Nice bitter flavour. Mm. We haven't tried Jack's have we? Jack? Well he's never given us a pot mean devil. Oh I see, I thought. It's about the one thing a year he does do and crows about. Well I expect his family dispose of it nicely for him. I'm sure Andrew Oh yes, yes I do believe he's given Andrew a pot to take home. He's still as daft about Andrew as ever isn't he? Yes. It shows a little bit, not in Jack, I don't mean in Jack I mean in Andrew. Although Andrew's twenty eight. It shows in both of them. I mean Jack was so solicitous that Yeah. weekend towards Andrew. And he and I had oops er had earlier talked about people, no that's fine, that's fine I like the crust, erm parking on verges and I was decrying it. Of course when we came back and discovered Andrew and co had arrived, he'd parked on the verge and I had a dig at Andrew about it. Jack was terribly defensive of him. You know totally changed his tune from earlier . Andrew can do no wrong. Well it's better that way round than the other. Oh you mean the way I treat Snoopy? That's not what I mean at all. . No but it's better to have er parents who think highly of their kids even if slightly mistakenly Mm. than decry them. Run them down. Mm. The lupin's coming out. Oh yes so it is. We've got two more down there, which are looking very healthy. I have offered to Lizzie to make bean salad for her wedding reception, or Brian's wedding Oh good. cos Lizzie's doing the catering. Erm with the help of David's mother. The erm my mother's, David's mother's making a cake, er it was one of those special ones. Her speciality. And icing it. Good. What did she say about desserts? Didn't she say that the college was, they were paying the college to ? They're having it at the co , at the university because David's mother has some connection. Which was how she knew about it. Right. And the desserts I think the college does a very good array or selection or standard or something of desserts. So they're going to actually buy the desserts from the college. Right. or something like that, they are. Lydia's doing cold meat and, and salad basically. Yeah. Yes I suppose it's Lynda. Well you're some guard dog aren't you? Useless creature. Hi there. Hi. Perhaps she could smell me through the door. Oh you're wired for sound. I'm wired for sound ma'am. Oh wow. Looking for your usual match. Hello. You realize I don't trust him any longer. Is that a . All these conversations he has and I'm not there. He'll be I wasn't thinking What an excellent plan. Well it's a pacemaker below the belt dear. Well I don't want to know about that. How wise. Oh lovely, thank you. That's superb! Yes I prefer the picture of the Red Arrows personally. I didn't realize that was . Completely cut out the . Oh, gosh, we've actually got a message in now. Amazing. There was nothing, there was nothing in the mail but a chequebook. And er nothing on telex. Oh god. Has phoned? No it's, it's and er about the alloy eight hundred H T. You didn't telephone Richard's did you? No I didn't. Sorry about that. Well when I find out who it was I shall wring their necks. Twenty five past eight? Yes. Oh well you mean you rushed back in again did you? No, well no I was actually stark naked in the bathroom. Ah. Twenty five past eight! Oh of course there's no school is there? No, no school. It, it's a tough life. I wouldn't mind being M D of an electronics firm. How many , how many to make you redundant this week. He's off at he's up at nine o'clock . No if you think about it he was out er Monday last week . Monday before that we were away, Tuesday away playing golf. And today all day he plays golf. Next week playing golf I think he might get a bit of a a a a bit of a reaction from one or two of these people, don't you? Dear oh dear oh dear. This eight hundred H T order's slipped away. Oh dear. Not too surprising really I suppose but erm I went up and erm heard the jazz at the Crown last night. Manhattan? Manhattan yes. How were they? I thoroughly enjoyed it. I thought it was great. Oh that's good. In fact I was quite a busy little bee last night. Fixed to go and have a game of croquet on Saturday afternoon. Oh you said you were, you were threatening to do that weren't you? Yes. yes. ought to have a go. Where are you playing croquet? Oh Dulwich my dear. Dulwich. With She. Pardon? She? Ah yes, I I . Shall I put the kettle on? Yes please dear lovely. I wouldn't er, I wouldn't trust her with mallet. Oh I've got bags of time I reckon to make notes on what I'm doing as we talk here. Yes, oh yes it's all sort of, relatively complex stuff. You, you read that did you? Yes. Did they send you the Walkman as well? Oh yes I've got that. And I've got boxes of, two boxes of tapes. Why do they trust you? I wondered. I must say I wondered. Yeah, I mean you're not particularly trad jazz inclined anyway are you? Oh I like trad jazz I don't like modern jazz at all. But I like trad jazz I mean that was, there was a great, there was a trad jazz era in the sixties Mm. and we were all very . Well there's the programme. Yes. He lives there. I had a chat with him last night. And er he sort of admitted that he lives absolutely on the fringe of the no go area. Mm look at it, I mean the name of his house Wit's End. He's a very odd character. Yes. Out of interest, how much do you charge for your do? Erm no I didn't,Plum actually did the organizing. I think, I think it was about two hundred and forty pounds Right. but don't quote me on it. It might have been more it might have been Somebody mentioned the figure of three hundred pounds. For a jazz Mm. Does that sound right? It sounds a bit of a I don't know but that, that price, somebody in conversation mentioned it. Yes. But they, of course they may be now cos we booked them back in Feb Yes. Yes. and. But they were only relatively cheap because at the time I made that change musician union. So they weren't charging union rates and we got them relatively cheap. Maybe whoever was telling me was making a Well when you look at how busy a programme they've got. You can't, it's difficult to believe why they don't charge full whack. I mean it was very interesting in the Crown last night because apparently they, they normally have some rhythm and blues and soul and things like that on a Thursday. And erm the youngsters weren't objecting to their music. I mean there were no real teeny boppers. Erm but the the old grey hairs like me were leaping around and . Yes alright. Good morning Mr . Health food shop. And it's Calming nerves sort of tension yes. Yes. Well that, it speak the truth they were given to me by June, who's very into that sort of thing and prescribed them for Simon and in fact has had to give him a few more now because he's had his driving test cancelled. And and he happened to give me . But my sister said exactly the same thing when she began a lot of those new remedies. And when I was talking to her she said, oh well you should give her something, but not to send her to sleep and make her drowsy. Mm. Not those kind of relaxants but something just to relieve the tension and make her feel calmer. So she approaches it in a better frame of mind. I, my feeling is that it's a bit of a placebo. But if it works it doesn't matter. I put, Marie Ann gave her daughter a Valium before she took her driving test. Did she fall asleep over the wheel? She didn't fall over the wheel and she did pass her test. And Marie Ann Was she very nervous? She, she was very nervous. And er . And I told Marie Ann about that and she said right. That will not happen to Victoria. And erm she did another very sensible thing which was to send Victoria out the day before with Patricia Someone new and different. Someone she, Victoria didn't know. And he just sat there doing and saying absolutely nothing. And erm Marie Ann thinks she got over her worst nerves at that time. That was a good idea. Was a good idea. She offered to do it for Simon and he thought it was a good idea but er he never quite got around to doing it. Maybe I'll get her to do it next week because his next test is next Friday. He's hardly been in the car. I shouldn't think his car will start. So erm you know I'm glad it's only that but I suspect when the day comes his car will but he took these erm homeopathic tranquillisers of course thinking his test was going to be a couple of weeks ago. And you have to take three the day before Yes they're not very strong, you have to build it up gradually. and then, they're not drugs of course. And then er one I think an hour before whichever event you're dreading particularly. And he, of course he'd taken them the day before. And by the evening said oh I feel awful, I don't know. And I reported that to June and she said that's a load of nonsense because there's nothing in it to make you feel lightheaded or anything else, and if he, if he felt a bit tired you know. And of course on the morning it was difficult to tell because before he took the first test he appeared to be fine until really the, the very last minute. Yes. And we didn't get that far. I can't say with my heart on my heart they work. I myself put my faith in diazepam I've got gram diazepam which is very slight, very small dose and is enough just to stop you caring so much about whatever it is that's really bugging you. I mean I honestly think she's not going to pass even though she's going to have another go. Yes. Because as you know if you fail twice you're sure to fail the third time. I mean you, how am I going to suddenly be better at it. How's it going to be different. So I said well a lot of it's an attitude. Exactly that's the only thing you can really change. Also I mean Doesn't it make you feel funny to have Erm therefore it doesn't really . I mean therefore she doesn't pass. So there is some judgement and skill involved. And I think her judgement is impaired by the fact she feels nervous. And is anxious not to overdo it and cos that's another where you fail again. Yes, unless somebody bad enough. But he wouldn't be letting you use your time if you were that poor at it because they do build you up very slowly. over two years she's been doing it. Well. Well hopefully, she's got another class on Monday. She likes her tutor. Well I'd be happy to give you the name of the particular one but I don't know whether it applies to the young. they usually want to know the colour of your eyes and that sort of thing . Well I only, I've bought odd things in the past and never actually been asked anything specific. I'll ask June. It may not apply to anything but I know in the past when she's given me those things to try erm she's got a book at home and it'll say erm particular a decent homeopathic shop they prescribe . She, she uses homeopathic treatment . She went to the er College of Veterinary Surgeons yest Wednesday with her latest dog because she's not jumping. You know she just got bigger dog. And she's had it some time now but the whole purpose was to so that she could train this one because the first one now is too old, the second one has and can't. And the second was a sort of . The third one has hip displacement. The fourth one and Jim wanted one . And she's had hip displacement. Again? Yes. So she can't, so she has five dogs she can't train. Good god. And she tablet today. But that will be a bit of a I hope it means she doesn't buy any more dogs . I I fear the opposite. Well the one thing she can't do now is breed from her. So she has to have her spayed. I didn't know she planned to breed from her but er she must . But it means she has five dogs to look after and Has she not passed dogs on or? They're more like children than dogs . Oh yes. Yes, more like, more like children than children to her actually. Erm the only thing that occurred to me I just wondered if she knew somebody who had a dearly loved dog that, didn't want to train it but you know she could perhaps just take along for the joy of running it and training it but I think part of the pleasure is the reflected glory you know it's my dog Well it's Yes. So I don't Our erm department head at school has a beautiful collie. And they felt he was bored at home because they're out quite a lot Mm. and although he's well trained and they exercise him. They felt he was bored so they took him to training classes and Tricia said he's an absolute natural. He goes up through the hoops along the narrow, she said the first day when all the others were standing there shaking at the narrow bath he was just over it and down and she said you've never seen him I mean they do it and thoroughly enjoy it. All of them do that er They're not showing theirs or using it for any other purpose just for the dog's benefit. Yes. For enjoyment She doesn't show them as such it's all agility and er obediency and so on. And the dogs do, they wouldn't do it otherwise I suppose. Good afternoon, good morning I mean Pretty order. Phone call from Singapore. Do you want to keep that list of the jazz Yes because I've got the similar, similar thing in small format here. I was just trying to remember whether they did Joan's do at the last year. . But I've got a feeling they didn't. No they, they didn't because the that's right because it was cancelled last year it was the year before she did . But I thought they were perfectly acceptable and surprised in a way that so many people commented adversely on them. Because they don't make a bad noise. I think it's people who don't like trad jazz Lynda. That's right. I think that's all, all you can say. Erm we are, there should be another order from Descar ready today. Oh. Mm. One. Are you going to ring ? I just . Yes. Erm. The other thing I'm wondering whether I should do the Petroline order which in fact flew on its first leg to Rome yesterday. Yes. It's only worth about a hundred pounds. We haven't insured it at all yet erm arrange that anyway. Mm. But might not be the best thing because if for any reason the buyer says that they didn't they're not going to pay I I I think we've got to accept that that on that business we have, we have, do not have secure terms period. Right but should we insure it fully? Not fully. But contingency. Contingency is, I thought was just sort of between here and the airport Oh no. until it left the country. No. No no no That is what it is for. That is what it is. Contingency is if the customer having, the buyer having said he will cover the insurance, doesn't Mm. and then doesn't get his money, doesn't pay us Right. we can claim. But if it was lost we could still claim? We could claim, he couldn't but we could. Yes. Fine, O K. Yes. We will probably have to prove that we have not been paid for the consignment. Interesting. Interesting possibility. But it, it, it's not covering from factory to airport or anything of that sort. It is definitely covering Right covering part of the risk. Yes. But not the Yes. Because we we can only take it on their word when they say we shall insure. I mean we should be doing it for shouldn't we? I do do it for . Do you? Right. O K. Ah. contingency only . I suppose it it doesn't matter very much one way or the other does it? What to them cheaper? Cheaper to us, erm the trouble with it is of course we never actually add it in. Do we? Yes costs I do. Do you? Oh yes. You you bung it across to the customer? Ah. I do if it's a C I N contract when I'm Well if it's a C I N contract you aren't you're not contingency. No. If it's contingency, no I don't. No. But it's usually . It is a small sum yes that's quite true. Great. I do add it into the costs if it's Ah. Yes. don't know do they? No that's true. That's quite true. Now er Richard rang me at five o'clock yesterday. That's an old fashioned half an hour. Yes. He did say that he'd tried to ring before I got back from lunch but I'm not one hundred percent certain. Erm but it wasn't, it was twenty past two when I got back from lunch. Erm and the erm I saw John at lunchtime and I mentioned it to him because he, he said that, it hadn't even occurred to me till then, because he said I'm concentrating on the surveying side and I thought ha ha ha to you my friend. Would you like Richard's work telephone number? why not. Did you discover what company he works for? No I didn't I'm afraid. Oh. No I didn't erm I didn't ask. But he said er, and I said that I gather you're seeing Lynda the weekend if you do find anything perhaps you could pass it on to her. And John said oh it will give me something to do. It is a bit desperate isn't it? I think Lewisham have got themselves into a ludicrous state over people er . Erm being pushed sideways into jobs that don't match and being paid full price. I don't want . Erm being paid their full salary. Yeah we don't want you any more so go and, go and twiddle your thumbs in this corner but they're still paying them twenty thousand a year. Absolute farce. Absolutely farcical. But I thought John had been put into a job that in fact he was born to and getting his teeth into Absolutely. Absolutely but he's up against the fact that nobody wants to know what he's doing. Quality control, I mean er client satisfaction, things of that sort I'm not quite sure what he's into. But er being a local authority they're saying oh come on. Why make the effort. I mean sadly that really was in a sense what making local authorities answerable was supposed to stamp out. Yes. And of course local government is the most wonderful procrastinator in the world isn't it? Yes but if they truly were answerable for their own budgets Oh sure. which they're still not No. and you know never will be now That's right. That's absolutely right. er that things go on like that. That's right. And that's going to be But who does it benefit? It doesn't benefit. I was quite convinced that ninety nine percent of people do not actually enjoy sitting doing nothing. You like to feel useful. Oh absolutely. But who does that benefit apart from the fact they're getting a salary at the end of the day? Nobody. Nobody. Nobody. But but when initially presented to you, here's twenty thousand a year for doing nothing my friend. It's, it has an element of appeal doesn't it? Well clearly you'd rather being doing that than doing Getting nothing for doing nothing . . Yes. Yes. But why can't they get their act together and Yes. Yes I agree. I suppose at the end of the day yes you're right. He's as well sit pushing papers around pretending to be busy but drawing the salary than being made redundant which is what ought to be happening. Yes. But they could possibly, they surely must be able to do it through natural wastage to some extent. I would have thought so. I mean all the time This Guys er business incidentally. They're now saying four hundred jobs will go but less than a hundred will be made redundant. The other three hundred will go through natural wastage. . They said six They said six hundred originally apparently but then and now they're talking four hundred. There was some rather naff comments about the union people COHSE I mean what a shower. Erm. On television last night there was some waffling about nothing and complaining they hadn't been told . I don't, I honestly don't know what the answer is with the National Health but it's going to take years and years and years. But probably we'll always I think the Guys situation is a very interesting experiment. It's a shame it's going on under a microscope, spotlight or whatever but erm. Spotlight I mean don't a microscope. Erm but even so it's er it's, it's interesting. And Guys needs it for goodness sake. Guys definitely needs it. If you look at all the nationalized industries that have been privatized, they're all making thumping great profits now. I wouldn't say it was, like the Gas Board, like B T. And I wouldn't say that we were being fleeced, I mean I, I think we've always been fleeced up to a certain point but they were always making a loss in the past and Well their, their accounting was cock-eyed in commercial terms Lynda. It, it really was different accounting which is hardly comparable. Erm and I see nothing wrong with making decent profits as long as you're not actually ripping people off as a monopoly. Yes. I think it's a bit dubious what they do with the profits after. Well. Oh that, that's a different matter. That is a surely I mean with something like British Gas erm to make the enormous profit they've made surely it must be possible to reduce the price to the consumer. I would have thought so, yes. And they can give you all sorts of reasons why Erm I I I must say I haven't read or heard anything about the British Gas thing. billion . Oh yes. I knew they'd made a lot of money. But erm what they were going to do I don't know. justify why they're not going to reduce the price. But the South West Water Authority or whatever they're called erm also made a big profit didn't they? But the guy said well ninety percent of this has got to be spent on a small proportion of the works which we are required to do over the next decade. Well that's fine. You know if British Gas training themselves more efficient or whatever else it is, fine. Yes. Yes. Yes it's when you see British Telecom repainting all their vans with this silly new logo that you get a bit twitchy don't you? Mm. I think the health length of waiting lists for operations and the furore about the fact that you've got to ring up and find where the shortest list is and all that Mm. which is a sensible thing to do in a way. Lots of people say well I don't mind waiting or whatever. Well. Norman on his wall has a a a list of er theoretical waitings for the different specialists at Orpington hospital and presumably he's got one beside it for Queen Mary's as well. Mm. So he can actually look at and say oh well Queen Mary's is the place for you to go my friend. And some people might say oh I don't want to go there I'd rather wait That's right. Absolutely. You know it's going to work out So it, it's happening already. Yes. To some degree. But er they're never going to, I don't think they're ever going to get on top of the waiting lists because they're introducing so many new operations. That's right. Yes. So. And there are people living longer and needing them. But it's always going to You, you have got to have a waiting list to use the facilities reasonably fully. Yes, otherwise you'd have sort of hanging around and asking That's right. how is that hip? Yeah. Shall we do it now? Right. I'll ring There's your jazz band leader. Jeffrey Jeffrey! Is that really? That's his full time job. when does And he lives in ? He admits that it's a area . He's a bit of an odd boy himself though you know. Yes. And I think it was his wife there last night too. Erm and she, she's a, a curious lady. I think it was his wife anyway she went round with a pot at the end. And he, I mean that's such an anomaly. He's effectively a surveyor. Yes. He's a building surveyor. I mean, you know building surveyors don't wear clothes like that. pants. Dressed all in black dear. I was just gobsmacked Yes, yes. Incredible isn't it.? Brave fellow I'd say. Yes. I love the humorous name though . Yes it fits him rather well doesn't it? Like the little terrace house called Bedlam at the end of . Talking of which there's a house down lower Camden which has the Chislehurst station sign. Great big thing. Stuck in their driveway. It's been there for ages and ages and ages. . Not a very clever thief really. No I wouldn't have thought so either. Enormous great thing. By the way I heard it on erm Capital Radio. Now how does it actually work? You just say please may I have my Argos card. You take the card back next time and they put it in a machine and add more points to it. Recorded electronically. And, and where do you, how do you know how many points you've got? You, you don't. The machine will no doubt tell you but erm and for every fifty pounds of petrol you get one pound for Argos. Oh well that's not bad. Well considering I put thirty quid in to fill the tank yesterday. You, you get there quite quickly. Yes. Mine takes thirteen pounds worth at a time . such a nuisance. And then you can just shove in your pass and erm So they they put this through the machine. They just put it in the machine and tag it and, price And then when you go to Argos they put this through their machine. That's right and read it off. Right. So anyone can use it. And it's a long term promotion. It's going till the end of next year or, or August next year. Is it just? Yes. So you you you have a chance to actually build up something worthwhile. Yes. I think that's I think that's the first sensible thing they've done. worth a pound off so they give you ten points do they every ? Well, my thirty pounds seventy gave me sixty, thirty pence or something. What, what did I say, fifty, fifty You said fifty pounds Fifty pounds worth of petrol gives you one pound off. Next, up to. Which is five pounds off. So presumably you have to do it Do what? Well, it says you can collect up to twenty five hundred premium points on your collecting card. Then you get another card. Then you get another card. You've got stacks of cards there. I think that's a jolly good idea. Yes I think it's fair. And what I really need is another card for my purse! . When I was in Sainsbury's yesterday you know credit card pay by cheque. And erm I mean I've got Membership etcetera? Yes. National Trust I see there. Which you never use. I've never used. Peugeot warrantee Oh fancy putting that on a plastic card. Well that's, no it's a breakdown service. Oh is it? Mm. Erm my library ticket. Er picture of Kate. Two tickets for the thirteenth of June. And erm stamps worth fifteen pence each which which I can't live without. But these are my credit cards. Oh my god. What I really need is another credit card. I mean yesterday I can never find my Visa card quickly you know what it's like . And I found my Mastercard first Yes. and went to put it back and I thought oh doesn't matter does it you know credit cards. Gave it to the girl and she went oh erm what's the credit limit on this? I said I haven't a clue, I've never used it. She said oh I've got to write down a credit limit. So. Oh what's the credit limit on your Barclaycard? I think fifty pounds you know before they have to no it isn't my credit limit Well yeah well they mean that credit limit It's a thousand pounds. Do you mean as a cheque backing card? She said what is your credit limit on this. I don't know. Were you paying by cheque? Yes. Well it's not a cheque guarantee card anyway. That's not a cheque guarantee card. Is it? Neither is Barclaycard. It is with Barclays, but I mean the, there's got to be a standard figure for the Barclaycard. Any any anybody else's, my bank card has a figure on it. It actually has fifty quid on it or something of that sort. I think it's fifty pounds for everything. Yes. Yes anyway. So that had to go back and I had to find my Visa card much to the annoyance of people queuing behind me. Have you tried them on already? Not yet. I like the look of it very much. Oh. or something. No . Fits nicer than that one. Do you like it? Well I'm asking you. Yes I like it. I like it. Well you think it fits alright? It seems to me to fit perfectly. And the colour's not too drab? I don't think the colour's drab at all. I think the colour's fab. Right. Looks just fine to me. Yes. Mm. I'll just slip on another one. I like it. It wasn't too expensive. Thirty pounds, twenty-nine ninety five or something. Good. Which isn't a bad price. Did you try, do you try any of them on in Marks? No. What's the material like? I don't know. . Now this one I've realized now is actually meant for wearing outside because it's got a bit of shaping here, see? Oh I see what you mean, yes, yes. Erm but whether that couldn't wear it outside with this Out out out or in presumably ? Presumably.. What do you mean? The collar ends in a point at the bottom in the styling. Oh I see. Oh yes yes yes yes I do see what you mean, yeah. I will say it's cut shorter at the back. sort of waistcoaty in fact. . Well it looks fine tucked in like that. I mean there's not much of it to tuck in. You know sort of Well that looks very smart as it is. But you couldn't wear it out on this particular blouse Well ca w because of the belt. If you wore the erm Well try it. If you. I will. You think that the colours go and I think the colours go very well indeed. I mean it doesn't pick up precisely the same colour but that in there Yes it is. Yes it is. Yes. But it clashes very well indeed. Why can't you wear it out like that? Because you destroy the blouse, the the way that the belt Well that doesn't matter if you've got your, if you've got your jack your jackety effect then haven't you? I suppose you could, if you were going to wear it like that, you could take the belt right off. Well you don't have to. Well no but you, it, it, it's quite a heavy belt and if it, if it's holding, if it's giving point to it. Yes. And that would make it a, an even cooler outfit wouldn't it? Yes. Because I have got this this this creamy shirt. Erm which I saw again in Marks this year which you could wear tucked in with a belt. Yes. Yes. But that one is, is genuinely versatile. Looks just as good tucked in as Yes. As I say the problem with the tucking in on that one is there's not quite such a lot of length. So when you do this you might come out. It'd start pulling out, yes. Erm and I don't think it looks good hanging out because it's, you, you paying in the skirt and the belt and that. And it's a bit silly to wear er a permanent arrangement. But this shirt could be worn with the skirt, couldn't it? Definitely. I mean the colour's just as, it's not quite as strong. the colour's pretty neutral isn't it? But I mean it does pick up. Yes. Yes I think the skirt's gonna be very useful actually. Er good skirt whether . Well I hope you will. I like it. It's the wrong green I think. The actual skirt, the skirt's a blueyer green. But you've got two blouses to wear with it, that's alright. You've got this other white one as well. white one. That's a short, that's your shirt. That's mine is it? Mm. They're very good, that's the white one. Yes. I would have thought This white one might the cream one. Well so you've got four blouses . Which is the fourth? Well the one you just said is a bit old now. Oh yeah but that's white again isn't it? Yes. No I think they're all worth and I think that's an attractive top as well. I think you should have that. Well erm. What else . I don't know . It's it's it's a possible winter or cooler No it's not. weather skirt. With a jumper or cardigan. No it's not. cooler, warmer weather and it's got short sleeves you know. I don't really erm . That's wrong for that. This has got a stain on it. That's a nuisance. It would be perfectly acceptable otherwise. Yes and we've got big crease marks on there. Let's have a look. There. I know it's there. I know it was last year I was really annoyed. Put the light on. . Well if we can't see it, it doesn't matter even if it is there. N'est pas? Well you certainly can't see it. Which is cos there was this big round grease mark. It was very but maybe I got it out. But I suppose that might erm Don't you think they go well together? work. Those colours are not too dark are they? They're not perfect but they would do . Oh what about this? Mind you this skirt is only casual. And that's a rather sort of formal blouse. No that's wrong. wrong. Oddly enough I mean it's so far away from the yellow I would say it isn't wrong. Oh it is wrong. It's not, it's not the same as this at all. That's sort of brilliant That, that's a hot pattern and colour isn't it? That's a brilliant yellow, yes. And this one's erm a sort of golder. And that wouldn't do. But that's colours go with that . Mhm. Those are the only . And I'll keep this blue skirt stain, quite smart. Yes. . And I'll keep the dress. And I'll think about the shirt. I like it with the skirt. What I might do is go back to Marks. If they have one thing in that colour they may have another one. In what colour? We were chatting. The gold Are you, are you thinking of that because it's a bit too formal or something? No just because it hasn't got the length for tucking in. Oh, yes. And I don't like these that pull out when you Well at least if it pulls out it looks alright. It was interesting in the pub last night. There were quite a lot of enthusiastic er audience but er they were mostly grey beards like me. Yes. Oh yes well apparently they normally have a sort of rhythm and blues or something on a, on a Thursday. Er or soul or something of that sort, which er you know there were loads of youngsters in the pub. Not under age youngsters I was pleased to see. But er there were a goodly proportion of people who were really enjoying the er, the track. I'm sorry I didn't feel up to going. Yeah. Well we've got plenty of other, I've got the list. opportunities to go and hear them again. He's a funny character though. Who? Who's a funny character? , who runs it. . He seems to have a very popular pub there. Oh, who runs the band sorry, runs the band. Oh, who runs the band. Yeah, it, it's a new interim landlord at the Crown. What happened to the old one? Oh, they move on. Erm you know he found another pub. Sometimes they move from being managers to being licence, erm erm tenants, I mean when they're running their own business. A bigger pub? Perhaps but I mean the Crown is quite a big pub. more opportunities. Quite a big pub. It's a, with its own kitchens and what have you. I should think you could make a good living there if you wanted to. And there have been long term er landlords there. Sorry? Mm. Well I'll go and shower now. Snoopy was off in a rush wasn't she? Well she was going on the train. Didn't realize she was going quite so early but I suppose it's hardly early anyway now. What time does Lynda come in these days? Half past nineish. I wonder if she'll change her time because of half term and she won't have to be taking her daughter to nursery school today, half past one. She may be. Yes, yes she may be. Yep. isn't it?bridesmaid's dress. There's nothing the right colour at all. Oh how annoying. I'll have to go into that little Auntie Pat's Textiles or whatever it's called in the afternoon. You don't want to leave it to Veronica? Veronica doesn't want, want to do the shopping bit of it. No. I don't blame her either. yes, it's certainly improving a bit I know she hasn't left all her customers. Oh quite, quite. Does she have any other suggestions of shops for the linings? . Well John Lewis probably will have it but that means burdening Suzannah with it. At a time when she's busy with her exams. It also means sorting out the cash. How interested is she in the preparation of this dress? Oh she's interested alright. Interested enough to be enthusiastic and do the right thing? Well she, she also Did she? but she is preoccupied at the moment with her exams and in a way I'm glad. I didn't want to send her material hunting if she could be doing something useful at college. Yes, yes fair enough. Anyway, O K Karen's given her an extra job from Is she? going in on Monday when she doesn't normally. Half past ten, right. Well given that then, in that case she still can't ring the bank to find out what, how much she's now got in the account. Can't she? Why not? Well she can do, but she can't do it from home. That's all. She won't be home. will she? Banks open at nine don't they? I mean, not to the public but the office is. Yes. Anyway she's the one who 's find out I mean anyway she'll be home again. Will she? She's only going for one class. Mm. I mean she'll be home after lunch I imagine. Yes. Did you do anything about those tranquillisers? What ? Lynda's got some, for Simon. For his driving test. I mentioned it to Homeopathic ones. Well that's the kind I was after. Erm, I mentioned it to Suzannah. And she wasn't averse to the idea. But she said she doesn't need them for Monday because it's only when she takes the tests she gets in a panic not when she's she said she can do it in the practice classes. Right. What she needs, lots of practice with different, not all on one man like before Yes. but a new person each time skill I, I doubt whether she's been properly taught on the subject quite frankly. I mean other girls have passed. Yes, yes. And she likes Karen. Very much. Her teacher for ? Yes. Oh, I She's a young girl. Really? And she likes her very much and erm I told you she by chance . Yes, indeed. And she spoke very highly of Suzannah. Oh. And said what a nice girl she was and what a good student and Suzannah said oh that's cos I won that make up competition. Right, I should get on. I was rather irritated yesterday because I had a phone call from Yes? And he called Gary saying we don't have the P elevens. And I I said oh well that's fair enough so I dug them out and sent them to him. And after I'd stamped and sealed the envelopes he rang back he said I haven't got the copy VAT certs either. I was not pleased at that! And I, wouldn't have occurred to me to send the P elevens. Actually that's not true either because I sent the P elevens to Steve and Matthew for his approval before we sent them off. And he sent them back again? Erm. I don't know whether he sent them back. I sent , I didn't send him the originals I sent a copy. Oh right. I doubt that he sent them back. Oh well, I I've sent the ones from the drawer Fine. off and said I want them back! Oh right. And he said fine. We haven't got copies of them . No. That that, well you know if there's a query in the next fortnight we know where they are don't we? But I was annoyed and I thought well that's fair enough because I wasn't aware that those particular documents were required by the accountants to sort things out, but Why were they required? I don't know. I didn't ask him but he said he required them. But I know that copy VAT certs, the VAT certs, VAT payment return, returns that's what they're called aren't they, are required. And so we hadn't sent them. Oh. Down to our that is. Well where were they? Well they're here in the drawer where they're kept. There's there's a VAT file in there and that's where they get put. Bit silly isn't it? This is a unhelpful because it's winding that way yet it looks as if it's winding that way, doesn't it? What onto the spool here? It looks as if it's reeling on to that spool. Yes. But it's reeling onto that one? It's not it's reeling through there. Very confusing and the fact that they've stuck that label on there doesn't help very much either. No, so, when it's full you have to put another tape in, does it Yes. click or does it? I don't know. I thought it would actually reversed on the first side. Erm And do the other side. Yes and I thought it was mucking it up so I just swapped it over the way it was. Erm we shall see. We shall see. It doesn't tell you . Well it it tells you quite a lot, but it doesn't actually mention that bit . I've got, I have got oodles of instructions here. It appears that on that erm walk the erm sort of pilgrimage walk. The B B C Songs of Praise television team were involved on all four days. Oh. Erm they were at the start they were at the finish and both days in between. Erm what's his name Alan Titchmarsh was doing the interviewing. And you might just see me in the background of one of the shots. Right. When's that being broadcast? I believe it's a special Songs of Praise in the summer to do with pilgrimages. Peter was saying what er a good do it was how it had all gone well. How much did it make? He doesn't know, he said we've certainly broken even but beyond that he's he's not . Well I hope so too but it wasn't the whole object of the exercise. Publicity for homelessness was part of the business and I know one lad said he'd only got two pounds of sponsorship and er I thought well you've you've done rather well to get two quid . There was some fairly erm basic types on that walk. You know you could you could well understand that they were homeless. Yes. Hi Susan how are you? Hi Chris. Fine thank you. Good good good. Geared up for the hols? Look like you've got your speaker on? I have. Ah. I have. Yes, yes yes. Yes. Are you ready to go, next week? Next Friday you go? Yes, that's right, yes. It's a week away she got washing at the moment. . I'm going to wear it all again before Friday. Well I know . Can I borrow your photocopier please? With great pleasure, yes. How many would you like? Just one off that please. Right. Pleasure. N ah, we've still got a few marks on here haven't we Lynda? Yes. Not many but er there are a few. Trouble is this, this is a spotty original too. There you are Susan. Thank you. Don't worry too much it's only . It's er, these these these these spots are on your original. Yes. That's O K cos that's a copy too. But we've added a few you see and we're concerned about the spots. It's only it's very rough It's what you need anyway isn't it? Yes. Just wondering what she sent to Barry cos the copies of are here. I sent him the originals. P elevens not P eleven D's. Your records Oh. your double fold two, two tone blue and white thingies. Oh the erm Cards. Deductions working sheets, those things? If that's what they're called, yes. Are they called P elevens? Yeah they are. You knew that. Well they're a full record of all the deductions and so on and so forth aren't they? May be there's no other full record. But I I don't know, he didn't say and I wasn't going to argue with him on it. I though it was the eleven D's you were talking about. No no. Oh in that case oh yeah I had those. Yeah. They've never ever had those. They have never had them. They they seem to come up with something new every year don't they? Exactly. I mean I've been doing that for ever since we've been on . Yes quite. How peculiar. Ah well. Oh yes they'd have been paid wouldn't they? Yes they would they certainly would. pay the cleaners. Anything else? I'm sorry. You're going where? anything else? I'm going to Eltham to get some material I hope. No there's nothing else I need thank you. bring you anything Lynda? No thank you. She could use a Mars Bar you could . You could just sort of tuck it in here under her waistband. Save her swallowing it. Dorothy was saying on the radio there was a programme about teeth. And they said within fifty years false teeth will be a thing of the past. Nobody will need to wear them any more. Dentists are doing such wonderful We probably won't need teeth we'll all be eating gruel all day. things to people's teeth and people's teeth today are so much better than the past. Yes. Interesting. Well it's too late for me. Ah shame. You haven't got false teeth. Pardon? You haven't got any false teeth. Not yet, no. But I might do in the next fifty years any of them. Oh we'll feed you on gruel dear don't worry. You might be needing your own . What flavour gruel would you like? I don't think I'll mind really. Strawberry. No I prefer, I prefer original. Salt and vinegar. Yes alright whisky flavour wheat. With salt and vinegar lumps. Oh that green looks really gorgeous with your colourful tracksuit dear. Well what do we wear with it. Yes. Yes. I don't have a purple jacket. Yes. Thank goodness for that. See you. Bye Bye Excuse me. Bless you. How come Graham's playing golf again today anyway? Oh it's business is it? Amazing. Amazing. He's out officially currying favour ha? good Of course they are. Yes. I mean it it's really quite fascinating that isn't it? They are making the bank a lot of money. Yes. playing golf this morning having a posh lunch and then playing golf this afternoon then having a buffet supper with prize giving. Last time he won a beautiful . Yes. He looks like Sean Connery. I offered to carry, pleaded Oh Lynda! Yes, well you'd be cramping his style wouldn't you? Yes. And er he had a partner, an equal partner who I don't know if he'd ever met him, I think he had. Well he was out playing golf fairly recently he just dropped dead. Forty eight. keeled over and died. So I'm amazed this guy's I hope it wasn't on the green. So do I. Dent, dent the turf. Gosh. I hope he didn't bleed or anything like that. I think he, you know, quite clean corpse. From what I gather. I would have thought it would have put his partner off playing golf for life. Yes. You'd have thought so wouldn't you? Still I imagine many men would say what a way to go. Yes. I wouldn't. Far better way to go than that but Who knows I might even get a chance to try one of these days. As long as you don't die with bells on your ankles. . Well then at least I'm they'd bury me with bells on my ankles then. bills have my name, it's obviously hiding. Now erm you did bring a a very good point there Lynda . Erm which was that erm what was it Pensions Yes. Absolutely. remember what, what he said last. But I'll see if I can find . I would have thought that he would have been down slightly more less Illegible proportions, yes. He's quite a nice old dear really. Yes, his not a bad old stick, but erm, he's so very difficult to actually fathom isn't he? Yeah. Erm, I don't think his as thick as he cames across to me sometimes . Did he say his name's not William? Oh he said he prefers to be called Liam or something . Oh what, without the wit . His initial is W. Yes, yes, he is William, erm,the there are sixteen of the item outstanding on this order, eight required on this order and he says they haven't quite tested eight yet. Some of the have passed test but they haven't quite got to eight yet, so erm. . That's the one that was due today. Yes, yes, erm, he said they may well have done sufficient of them by Monday. But it sounds as though everything . He said the rest of it's on schedule. Ah right . Yes , his looked at it in the last couple of days, so he said within within another week or so he's having the whole done with them. Good. Goody goody goody woof woof woof I can see exactly what this guy's means about eh, huh, anything, anything in laboratories because the, the range of stuff in these magazines is phenomenal. Yeah. Absolutely incredible. So I think what'll do is contact one or two of British companies with probably way out stuff and just see if there set up in Japan. I bet you have your coffee haven't you? We have thank you dear, Susan's looked after us very nicely, yes, yes, all's well. You got these bits,after the address, I don't think . What bits? Oh you mean the lining for the wedding, the bridesmaid dress. Oh I see so. So . Is it near enough? That's, that's the outer one . That's the lining. And that's . That's the lining. That's of the erm. The net. The outer one. Oh I see. You know it's going to be near enough match. Great problems. The right . Well this is it, and I thought underneath. Is the the net going underneath. The net goes on as well. Oh yeah. It's all underneath. . This is the top. . erm, so it's a sort of net . The net is just a . Yeah. Yeah. Oh yeah in fact if anything . Well I felt that it was better than having white. Yes. Net, erm. It's a very deep blue. . And the bridesmaid's, the little bridesmaid's jacket are this colour and this colour in print and all out of fabric and erm definitely go for the darker. Yes. Something more bluey. Must be hard. Got to get the right . Rather you . You think you no a colour until you try the er, and the one I actually picked out when she measured it off, she'd only got three yards and I needed four and a half. Oh. So she said I'm sorry, so I got the next nearest, I just cannot waste any more time . What a pest . When's the wedding? , but if I don't do it at half term it would be left to the end . Well, poor old Veronica is going on holiday or something of that sort . No, she's been. Oh has she? Yes. Ah, good. But she's also got lot's of other. Yes. Wedding's, similar to . Yes. But we have booked with her, she knows it's coming, but I want to be able to start when she wants to start,. Rather than hanging on. Well also there's all the fittings, fitting them round and trips to and all the other things. What . Erm it's not no, the little ones are, cos them going to be three quarters and it's got a full skirt with a, an over panel, and she's got frills in the back of her skirt and got an over panel over it, can't describe it, it is pretty, and the neck is just slightly on the edge of the shoulder,got a frill and no sleeves, and the little ones got puff sleeves and high neck. Hm. They have that particular one because the two little girls wanted to be bridesmaid's , have just been bridesmaid's and have these dresses and Anna thought the colour was so pretty, cos she went into Laura Ashley and got one in the sale of last years stock. Yeah. For Layla, seven pounds. Oh gosh, you wouldn't have done better than that, that's for sure. They do in adult size in. Hm. So they choose this fabric being the right . Hm. And the same type of fabric as Anna's dress. I'm sure it'll look lovely, if it, I mean if you've got grown up bridesmaid's in every one, you will expect seeing Anna actually chose the . I rather suspect that the, I even said about the strong colour of the net, I suspect, that when Trouble with it? when it's a single thickness strong the colour won't be as strong as that anyway . It looks it won't show anyway . No. The underneath. Is it, is it really just a puffer is it? Veronica said if you can't get anything the right colour, get white, but white got a very starkly difference. Yeah. Would you believe there's an advert in here for Brookfield Discomitors , remember the I went to Bromley to get that. Yes. American's name and address and rang him up for one . That was before we found . Oh yes, it was, is it that, that was why we were looking for them to pick them out? Yeah . . One. It worked. Yes,half an hour looking through as I am now. Have you a thrilling weekend ahead of you? Erm, were going in tomorrow . Hm, hm. And then to the er, I think that's Well I, I've got a, got to a, got to go and play croquet but apart from that . . Got to go and get another crate of Sam's. . A fairly packed weekend then really. Yes, yes, I've a. . Did you see the thing, piece in the paper this morning Kew gardens says don't water your plants, we don't. No. Yeah, there is no water so don't use it. Funny old business. . Well I've heard it before that a, said, said before that a, that, that the plant roots curl up to the surface to meet, rather than digging down deep and. Hm. Heading for the goodies that way. It makes you tree die . They died from being watered? Lack of water. From lack of water yes, well our, our, our did, our did to, our er Rosemary. Did it? distress. . It's very interesting that for hyper accurate barometers they still use mercury, and the and these are real test barometers. When you see Di will you mentioned that erm heavy duty office. I'm seeing her at lunch time, I'll speak to her. Di! I did . Oh right. . Very good, very good. But we want that . We want, we want that seal it style as opposed to the right, we do indeed, yes a closing, a closing staple. Yes, one that bends over . A staple closer, not just a staple gun. Hm. It's really rather curious how although David was happy to give me the names of these various lab magazines, lab equipment things, erm, he was very chary of sending me er copy of his own production. Oh. So what's the temperature inside a domestic wood burning stove Lynda? Come on. Three inches? . Not twenty five pounds . . There is a fuel advisory service, I wonder if they call themselves that or the British fuel advisory service or something ghastly . There awful Is there a separate . There's the yes, National Coal Board have got there erm, British Heating Council, or something of that sort, I think. Le air, sea food restaurant. No what do I want fuel, come on concentrate boy, fuel, fuel. Is it the beef or the fat, that is the question.. Yes, it's certainly not fuel, no what was it? Let's try British, British. It could be . We, we have, it probably more than one place, but erm, there's no guarantee that it'll be there if you actually. No. Manage to, British , no, no British fuel, erm, British Heating No. There is something. British Coal Pension Fund. Yes. I can't really ring up British Coal to say what about wooden, Woodstow my friends. British Coal Customer Services, British Coal. I just look under heating. Heating Advisory Service,perhaps. Now we had. Heating Advice Consultancy Sidcup, oh my goodness me. I doubt if were gonna get . They're gonna sell you a a gas wavy on the wall stove I expect. We did have quotations from Wood . Yes, we did. . That was, that was an awfully long time ago wasn't it? Let's have a quick shuffle in Kelly's. Who is it that created the adverts . I think the Coal Advisory Service, yeah, yeah. Yes, quite right,. Eh, Stoves, Wood burning, er. Wouldn't your man . On the basis of the, the huge attempts I've made to get very little informa and, and the lack of success getting information out of them, no, I don't think so. . Portugal. Oh. Stove, log stroke, wood burning. I could ring them up and say I'm in touch with your competition in Portugal You probably . Yes, probably does, but it, it, it maybe scientifically possible to say, would, would under ideal circumstances maximum temperature would be so and so. . Erm, so that you would have to allow for those ideal circumstances in maximum temperature. But I have seen a coke stove, cast iron coke stove on a chimney going up to the ceiling in the dark absolutely glowing bright, bright, red. I have seen .. Agas. Agas. I've seen an entire kitchen going red from an Aga. Really. Because I left slightly ajar the bottom door. Oh splendid. And the fridge was red, everything was red. . , everything red hot. God. The hot water pipe . But that was, you could actually see , they are pretty . Hm. But I don't mind . I bet. . Where was that? . Oh right, yes. I have noticed our fridge door being open rather more than it, you know, just somehow not properly closed. I . Trouble is, think about it,design, the weight . Absolutely. . Yes, yes, and our door was squiffy when it first arrived. erm. Gracious, makes you wonder doesn't it? Green Tom Products Limited. Green Tom? Fume extraction engineers. . . Three of the people listed are in Exeter. That's strange. Hm Gracious nearly half past twelve. . Lynda, you can tell keep an eye on all my own letters. . That's a desperately needs this job. Oh, well I don't to ask him cos I know he must be his A levels. Right. And I thought if I come along with. I wish it was true that he was actually studying for A levels though. Actually I wouldn't like to be the one .. Whom he, whom he can blame . He's actually gone, everyday we speak to erm various public libraries, to research to get . Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha.. Oh, I shall stay here if I were you . , somebody's holding the door shut,, wouldn't push open knock the end of the nose as usual, very startled dog . What do you think we might have done . is it not in the miscellaneous file? No . I've no idea. Absolutely no idea Lynda, I haven't taken it out. . Yes. Did I send a message to them, erm, I, I didn't send a message, no I'm sure I didn't send a message chasing them saying how about a fresh order or whatever . No, neither . No, no, I can't think why we can't find . I think we might miss out on the er stimulant today Lynda. . Oh your running Kate across, yes, yes, yes. How .. So she's flitting around here and there, yes. I don't know which school the girl next door goes to but she's doing her erm,A levels and er her term's already finished. . Officially she is not at school any more. No, I mean,. Hm. That there looks familiar in with the . Was in where? It was in a . Has that got it's own file still? Yes. Good heavens. It's rather a long time isn't it? . Well a, yes, of course were clear out the file drawer, but then with got to find somewhere else to put the blessed stuff haven't we ? . WARM, the Wood Burning Association of Retailers and Manufacturers. Oh. . It's all so obvious isn't it! Why do we know how much be?. . I think I'd better go. Oh right, yes, yes O K. Fed up with this, need progress. . Here let me fix it for you. It is so darned difficult to decide the ones that'll go, turn into anything. No. Most of them don't do they? It's odd the ones that do sometimes. Excuse me. It might just be worth asking question that the guy . He must need to know it for other reasons . Yes, it's a good point. That should take him a long time to . It is a good point. Right, I'm . Good, bon appetite. Won't have time to appetite. Oh I should make it if I were you. . Yes, cheerio. I'll take my radio. Oh right, yes. . Ciao. . Oh dear. Moved the car . Right, right. . I don't do that Don't chop the fence in two a drastic time there. Mm. Mm mm. cutting down the other end. A stake be that big in there. Yes Big,it's not . Yes. Three . Oh. His still running. Yes. Yeah,, got a for it. The the the trouble is it's not not not that wrong with the fence but the ivy's so thick, it's been there so long hasn't it? Hopeless, anyway I'll move the car out Bill. O K. Thanks. If you don't mind, do you come round here and Yes fine, if if if you're happy too Bill, thank you. It's not disturbing you in there is it? No, no, I mean the hoover's going . Oh. The washing machine an and everything, everything, no problem Bill. I mean,iv ivy really does go doesn't it? Incredible . All that in there must have been that thick. Yes,tree,all amongst the Yes. What'll you plan to do with the bed, when you've cleared it all out? I'll just go and , dug it, dig it all up. Mm. match that up with that. Yeah. So I was So get rid of that bit of fence? No, keep that here, so I can just angle get the car in. Yes, yeah, that's good . Drive the car straight into here, I got that . Will will the tree here, will you be able to get the car sufficiently clear to Oh yeah . get access to the garage? Great, I'm on my way . Well if I just leave the car at this angle, pointed out that way. Yes, yes, great. It's just that outside of it . Yes, yes. And I'm not a great lover of weeding, cos No, I I don't blame you, yep, pull this. Gherkin for you? Get out a small one. That one isn't, but there are, I'll get you one. half a one. So, do you feel your shopping was successful this morning? Quite successful, yeah,. Delivered to Veronica. Ah yes. Is there any oil and vinegar on here? No, cos there's sauce of meat. No . Quite amazing how the Queen Mother keeps on doing her so many public engagements. Yes, she ninety now? Ooh over, yes, mm, ninety last year, had a special parade didn't they? must be advantage of getting ready and being prepared for her and Mm. Yes, she's waited on, Taxi-ing from door to door or you know Mm your plans made up and your meals laid on. I, Susan's thinking of Right. Yes. I think Joyce has got one up. She's got what? Planning application, notice, for her first floor extension over the garage. That wall downstairs. over their downstairs loo . Oh . More for you? Is the office still being occupied? No, not occupied. No it's not actually, busy. pouring in here. Well we had one or two earlier this week, I must say. Nothing today. Still still . No. What is on your programme tomorrow? Nothing, well nothing . I'm having hair . What type is that? I think it's called . Presumably I need to get some food for next week. Erm Of course, deliver that material I was wondering if you fancy going to Ming's tomorrow evening? Well that's a generous offer Will Snoopy be out and about? I don't know what Snoopy's doing. I know she's planning the cinema tonight. I don't know if there's anything on tomorrow Maybe we ought to go this evening if she's there to work. Yes, are we free this evening? Yes we are aren't we? Well I didn't book in all the time, cos . Oh. Yes by all means. Mark and up the road,. Sure. How on earth that fellow reckons his pin down regime could have been positive. That's the guy isn't it . It's extraordinary. agree, like the way he's standing . Doesn't it just . I wouldn't mind children with problems. Yep . punishment Yes. I hope she didn't find it as easy as she told them ,if you shut them up in their room. Mm. There's not a lot they can do is there? No. children's right, I should think . Mm. I agree. And I agree they're going to sue him these days Do it for money, everything right. Mm. going to teachers,staffed. . The more you educate your teachers, the more they're going towards . I'm not saying if there's an argument against educating them. Do you think there is an argument for finding natural teachers as opposed to set of people to get on with the job? How would you find them to start with? I don't know. You can't, you aren't saying that teaching is to, is a skill, that can't, isn't, teaching is now a skill in ? No I'm not, but I'm saying that some people probably have a natural, a natural teaching ability. But how do you know when you're eighteen, whatever, is a natural teaching ability or merely a wish to try it? Maybe eighteen is not the right age to be recruiting teachers. recruit . Well how do you know you're going to be a doctor, or anything when you're eighteen then, you know, you can't, you're teaching . No, I accept it. Accept that. I mean it is a longer training now, what it used to be. standard is required. I think you need a lot of knowledge, especially nowadays when they're insisting on all this national curriculum, you've got to have a very broad ability. And then of course you need and you're going to avoid chance like this and or whoever you . You've got to be educated in child development and child psychology and the emotional development of children as well as their physical and educational intellectual Mm. You've got to have all that side of it, and if you're in teaching it's a bit ridiculous to be in any job if you don't know something about the history of it. I mean no one 's suggesting doctors sit and learn all the theory of and the history of the development of medicine, but I'm sure that it's important to have some knowledge of your area. Mm. Yes. So you wouldn't just push it all out, and how do you discuss new educational reforms if you haven't any idea about the original previous Yes. reformat I mean you've got to be you, knowledgable about your, the area in which you work, so I don't think you can just wipe out the history of education that's irrelevant. No. In fact there's a great argument teaching teachers a lot more about the legal areas these days as a teaching. Instead of just relying on your union,. Yes. Knowing your responsibilities and your rights. there's a four year , you think they'd fit quite a lot into that, cos a lot of it is holiday. Mm. and a lot of it erm, teaching . Teaching , terribly important, but I suppose teaching Yes. Not just . Yes indeed. You know, you need to be really helpful when your teachers, your class you're put in to. responsibility as well as the next college lecturers, that'll help you. Yes indeed. Which isn't . Would you like coffee and biscuits or would you like some fruit or a piece of bread and jam or what do you fancy? I'll have some fruit first please. It's quite a lurid apple isn't it? Oh. I didn't get round to ringing Christine last night. I couldn't get through to yes her number's still engaged, unless it's been reported. Mm. She might have just had it off the hook yesterday. Come on . Students with O A level passes for ninety three percent of training teachers Eight out of ten graduates have a good second class honours degree. It's not such a high percentage in maths as it is Twelve and a half thousand early retirements in eighty nine. Mm. Four thousand retirements through ill health, doubles the number to eighty seven. Aha. A good honours graduate now has a starting salary of eleven thousand five hundred, why should good honours graduate teachers earn fifty percent medical, medical practitioner, seventy five percent less than new accountants or eighty percent less than new civil engineers? Yes, it's not, they've turned it into a total university trained job erm, people haven't given award. Well apparently used to be trained . No,taken them, they're taken to be professionals though aren't they? That would be the theory. Professionally speaking. I've never had taken that. Educational is not seen as a vital part of national right, that must be somebody The wages earned by unskilled workers in Germany are twice as high as those earned by teachers here likely don't it? across the board trouble is when you get these differential spend all the interpretation on them, not that you're rewarding the good teachers but that some teachers are not worth rewarding. Now if you really are a weak teacher out. Then your then your feelings perhaps don't matter in the overall picture of the education, but bearing in, looking at the teachers in our school, we, we really don't have a weak teacher except perhaps Mr , who's obviously not been well these last three years, erm He is weak on discipline. He is very high in his guild his musical know, gets a lot of work from the children and the children really like his classes. So does that mean that he is a good teacher of music, he's just not a good disciplinarian? To be a teacher you've got to have control of your children and you can't Yes. possible, however good you are at your subject. Right, right. You must have control of your class, sometimes if you don't, under, when I say he's a weak teacher I don't mean he's a bad teacher. I wouldn't single him out, I would just say he's not a strong teacher for the reason that he's only got part of it under his belt properly yet. Mm. But, you know, you can't, you might say well this teacher doesn't have such good displays on her wall, but then she might be ever so good at another area, I mean is not a display lady, she doesn't have artistic creative sort of flair like say Polly did Yep. but Well there's nobody in this school has it like Polly did. Well Ms 's pretty good. Is she? And Vicky is very good. Mm, yes. And Polly always used to say how good Lynn was, reckoned she could make a good career in designer living. Oh yeah. Erm but Jan is one of the best organizers that I know. Is she? She covers . She's terribly thorough. Mhm. And her children are very, very well grounded. Are they? Yes. You know, they, they really are. And that's a greatest skill in itself. Mm Yes,. Everybody's got their , erm what's her name, Jill from New Zealand, is quite young, but she has all the potential of being an excellent teacher, she's, she's very enthusiastic, very straightforward, she's What'll her experience that she had in New Zealand? I think it was Hong Kong, she had it. Oh really. She had been teaching New Zealand, erm, not quite such a long training so she's had three or four years' experience. Mhm. She was teaching in a private school in this country before she came to us. Was she now. Oh she's not still learning then? No, but she is young all the same. Is she erm But she's a very good, keen teacher. Yep. But you wouldn't expect her to be as experienced as Maureen. No, of course not. But in, on her level she's a very good teacher. Yeah. And brings a different quality to her class. Yes And Vicky's very good, Vicky's somewhat disorganised really. Mm. Work in something of a muddle, but Vicky has a great eye for detail. Oh. With enormous patience as well as huge fund of knowledge and skill, she's a very talented girl. Mhm. For herself Tanya's good talented as well. Is she? She plays the flute and her guitar very nicely, singing in several choir . You know I wouldn't like to be the person trying to judge, oh, should be rewarded. Being cold, you know, you can give merit two of your teachers who meant to deserve it. Yes. Well what . Yes. Would you just say, well, I'm already . Especially when all the others know what's going on. Well that's right. And don't get them. implying that they're not any good, or not as good. I mean maybe we can't all be the same there's something at fault and you saying people who I think. Ah are, the best, you provide being in charge of this or being the deputy or being being a mistress. Yes. And that's why I choose them, so I'll give it to them. They are already being rewarded. No, it's a bit of a it's a bit of a strange thing . Yes. If you've got a school where there are weak teachers then you don't want to to being weak. Yes. I think it should . They've got somebody who'll teach them the what if they're aren't they? Yes. Is that it for see there's someone's milk chocolate pudding, there's a three plain top one and one with milk, eh. Oh goody, goody. I bought it specially for you. Thank you dear. that means they've got packets of plain ones available now. Well they haven't with me.. . Perhaps even real plain chocolate, wowee. I'm glad it's real. Did you see this, a baby, a four day old baby girl died after receiving the transfusion of over heated blood, which the nurse had warmed boiling water from a kettle. Good grief. Where was that? Exeter. Don't get ill in Exeter. There's a comment on the saying that, these days in cases of separation and divorce, it is only the right child which is considered. An unmarried couple Mm mm. who wanted to live together, and wanted to have a child, but they wanted to know whether they would have equal rights as parents Aha. could they draw up a contract, saying that they would share? Mm mm. And he said yes you can, but it would do you no good at all, cos if the point came when you split up the judge wouldn't look at your contract, he would only consider the rights of the child. Mm. That explains why Brian didn't get a look in. Yes. Yes Good heavens, tomorrow, the day after, the whole of radio three comes from St.Paul and Minneapolis, Minnesota. Why? Live broadcast. Why? What's going on there? Well I assume they're some sort of Pop . No hardly pop for radio three dear . For radio three yeah. Twin cities weekend, don't actually say that there's a . Jacqueline Kennedy looks young there, look. Good heavens, how old do you reckon she is now? Well it says it would of, J F K would have been seventy four. Goodness gracious and that's his widow, how extraordinary, yes she does look young. And that's her daughter. She looks very American doesn't she? Reasonable I suppose. Yep. They've asked her, oh dear, four widows . I thought that they appointed somebody in charge. No again. Oh, mind you, they're hardly a Mr charisma they have appointed. Douglas Fairbanks married Vera Shelten, my goodness. Got to be junior . Yes, but even so, he's eighty one. Is he really, is Vera Shelten ? They married twenty six years ago . No, they met twenty Oh met twenty six years ago, he still exactly hurry did he? Lynda seems to be staying on a bit, oh no, no, she does have to stay till two sometimes. She's been quite late lately. four o'clock . Right. She said if we didn't get stuck at the . The latest threat to children recently is not just wait till your dad gets home, but, my daughter told her four week old baby, if you're not good I'll put you on the fax and send you through to daddy. And the four week old probably understood it better than I do. Come on Emma,. Did she, aha. a little drink because she's licked a lot of mud when she came in . Goodness me, you realize there's a water shortage Emma. In Belgium, Netherlands and Luxembourg, drivers will have to use dipped headlights in daylight from nineteen ninety two. Where in Luxembourg did you say? Belgium, Netherlands, Luxembourg. Head headlights in daylight. In daylight. It's, it's very normal in Scandinavia, most drivers there use their dipped headlights in daylight. Well yes, we all know they live in the land of the midnight sun when it's dark all the time. No, they, they're not talking about that , not talking about that. Oh you'll be happy darling. Sure. Mind you anybody would think that I sold headlights. Probably do that's why. Ah yes, that's right, I'm not going to tell you about it. A quarter of drivers leave their cars unlocked, I think it's rather more than that in the summer. I lock mine even in the drive here. Mm, try to. What do you mean, I try to? Can't get the key in the lock sometimes. You mean in your lock, why what's the problem? Shaky hand or Room against the fence. How do you manage to get out? Don't know, just slippery as an eel. I know you come here, come, come on, come here, come, come on, there's a good girl, oh this is lovely, oh she's a lovely girl Oh she's a lovely girl, good girl, wet whiskers Emma Cloudy, misty, and with patchy drizzle, oh, oh, cloudy with patchy light rain. Cooler with isolated showers, but a bit brighter. Sounds delightful doesn't it? Sorry what did you say? I'm just saying there's a not much different really. I know sometimes, still taking the day off today? I guess so, it seems so,Graham,oh, he's making people redundant, he's gone off, it's about the third time in three weeks take a day playing golf. He's making people redundant, why are they, don't they have enough work? That's why he's playing golf, nothing to do? Bank invitation day. Oh. What happens if you don't play golf very well? Your bank manager's quite pleased that you win? Probably, yes. You really need a ha ha hammock to lie between those two pine trees. So you can lie in the shade, and be dripped on. Ah I don't really think that I should get a lot of pleasure out of going to watch croquet tomorrow. Oh, alright. Probably a lot of standing about. What do you think? I don't think the two of you will find it particularly entertaining. No. Whose purse is that one, it isn't Susan's is it? No, that's mine. Containers, spare tapes. Quite costly doing that? Yes indeed. Yes. It's in very good nick. . What happened to the top bar, just take it off?. Take it off yeah. Yes, I've got to take it, see it's got all in underneath it. Yes, yes. . Haven't you? That's got to be dug up just levelled and crazy paved. Yes. You're going to craze save the . Yeah, bring it, match it up with what's over . . . Will you leave this corner will you? That's what started it, I now , this was growing amongst that . The ivy yeah. Flower,definitely started it all off, once started cutting around it. Hm. . It's made a difference, it really has, really. Yeah I so. You'll be able to get out of the car know darling, instead of climbing into the hedge won't you?. Well I won't , I won't have the noss, nice soft ivy too fall into.. . . same colour as the er Yes, but it looks as if it is in good nick. Yeah. Oh the weather . Little bit of the gravel borders gone ,. That's pretty normal isn't it? The ivy . I said I've done, I've done both the sides of the, my garden and Maureen's garden. Really. Yeah, all this ehm, twelve foot lengths, er six inches by half inch thick wood,and I had enough to do er what are they, seventy five, three seventy five foots, two thirty foots . Mm. Yeah . Smashing. Cos I, a friend of mine works for Young's and got the gravel rails and all that. Yeah. . I left a sack of them behind the shed there, forgot all about them . . They've probably burnt them know.. Yeah, I don't suppose they looked behind them. Large conifers there, behind the conifers to get too them. Hm. But ehm, yeah,. if they do save the fence the wood onto rather than re-do a fence terrible isn't it . Yes, yes , that that's what it's for, isn't it. Hm. Hm. It looks as if you've got a spare as well down there. You can have that, get that. You never know, you wanna buy another bit of wood, put it on top of that. Oh yes that's in poor nick isn't it. It's not that,with creosote, that's that old green fence door. Yes. And with the creosote on it, it look's like new. Yes, yes . So I just with that in the doors with creosote . I like those. Hm hm. Yes they're nice. I wish that all the bottoms gone on that one. I just, I don't know,, gonna throw them away really. No . No . No, well you don't have too do you? No, this one, I'll leave this one, I want to leave that there. Yeap. take that down and I've got to do that. Yes, yes. . Yeah, very good. See it gives the character's to the house,the house with . Hm . That's when, when we come to do the windows, we've got to go back too the The little square's the original ones, yes good. And the , cos they took, they took the doors and put a big window there. I mean. Yes that, I, I, have a feeling that the original frame rotted. Rotted. There. Oh. I I I think it, it was not well maintained and rusted, rusted, and rusted and it was just impossible to do anything . . Hm. I like that where . sun the house. Yeap, yeap. Oh, when the lads did this, they went to great trouble to actually find the right sort of windows and what have you . match . Had had the top been specially glazed ehm, ehm, what I mean, barred. . Yes. So that it looked as if it belonged to the house. Hm. Cos a couple of doors further on they, they there's and they got a completely different front and window and it looks like an addition. . It is a bit chilly isn't it? Yes just a bit. Yes, yes carry on working Bill.. . . I'm not sure I'll still be here if I bought Chris all of this. What's that? A strimmer. Well no, it it it shears doesn't it. Electric shears . Electric shears . Yes. Yes, you can get use to carving the joint any way Bill . If you don't want that black bit, you have to prune that . Oh, she can trim the dog with it.. prune with spring, but, then, once the flowering that green one needs cutting back, but again it needs all the old wood taking out and the new wood in. Yeap, that's down too William. Oh oh Emma. Living up to it's name eh... Ah. Come on Emma. Cheerio . You beast, you big girl. Shall I ring and book Ming's? Do you like any of that? Or would Yes you prefer it tomorrow? tonight. Would you prefer it tomorrow? I don't honestly mind one way or another. It doesn't personally matter to me, it just like feel It ties with the with the arrangements bit, if you liked to do that would you? Mm I'd love too. Good, let's do that then, I'll I'll, I'll give them a ring now. Yes, fine, yes, yes, but if we can get in tonight we'll do that. I'm sure Suzanne wouldn't mind if we ate out tomorrow, and it's . She's probably a bit miffed that she's not coming with us. Tomorrow would be quite nice because I'm having my hair done tomorrow. Well. Go tomorrow. Shall we include Suzanne if she's free? I can book a table for two and ring them up and make it three, if eh, what, what time would you like to eat tomorrow? About eight. About eight, eat tomorrow O K. That sounds fine with you? That sounds just fine to me. Just fine, the the erm no I shall Say it again. I shall come back in time, no I was just thinking that, the, the erm You sure the croquet might continue. Have you finished with that? I'll put it away. If you're starting at two,want to be there for Till hours, hours, hours Eight o'clock even no I agree with you, I agree with you. No, I'll I'll I'll ring them up and book it for eight. So you're bound to, you you can get somewhere one deals work and erm Hiya. All well? Aha. We have a naked fence now. Yes, but he,. Well I think Bill's chopped all the ivy off it. the ivy as well? Is he doing something to the tree? I noticed that I thought the tree had been eh Maybe it has the tree . Hadn't specially noticed that. Certainly into the ivy he was having a crack at. the fence is in surprisingly good nick underneath it. Yes. Any happenings? Mm. Midland Bank received our letter of credit yesterday, at twelve thirty, our documents was twelfth of May, have not yet been checked. Right. That's right. She said, we'll ring you about any discrepancies on Monday didn't actually say we'll ring you about the discrepancies on Monday . I didn't wish to disillusion her. Have one up, they're all slightly different these credits, so Mm. so, check about two I seemed to have got a significantly better offer on this . which is potentially exciting. No, from . Oh. They Out of the blue? Well hardly out of the blue, they asked for it a week ago. I see. though that again is questionable. The implication has been all along that they're using the same United States manufacturing source but in fact there are one or two discrepancies here, erm, because the value is so high, I'm actually sort of going through and looking at everything pretty closely, and they've changed the basis so wow,. Cos we're talking of the same product, one, one, quotes ninety six dollars and the other quotes a hundred and thirty seven dollars. That's a different. That's quite enough to want to treble check isn't it? Question is, how much of it do we pass on? Is associate . Yes, it's the what have they said about the offer they've had already? Erm, yes they have,for forgive me, I'll just finish this if you don't mind, I'm, I'm almost there, one O ten point three eight. Well erm he came back on the twenty fourth, no, never mind that we we've been to-ing and fro-ing have Asian Associates and I and Is there a deadline on it? Not as such so they're pressing for an answer, the factory, but erm, he came back and said we'd need firm prices, per kilo price, lump sum price not acceptable, customer offer of sixteen Deutschmark per kilo from , for twelve to fourteen with delivery, your request for those credit verified five months not acceptable, you offer to deliver in eight weeks in which case and we'd get till twelve weeks, please confirm. U S factory is booked, bulk order, pushing delivery out to twelve weeks, Deutschmark sixteen ki kilos unlikely, could only break our offer down to price per piece or packet. Five months were allowed for dispatch of last welding rods and elsie transfers on opening and presentation. I wrote back saying, get on with it, and incidentally we overestimated the shipment cost, brought it down to about half, got to be awfully careful there, because some of these bits are so big, they , and today he said, customer will make decision only after ten days, since final size of assortment is under preparation, meantime with your offered price and revised delivery time, it looks very difficult to book this order. Price of electrodes is, seems alright, however plate prices are very high. Please offer per piece or kilo. Now have changed it from per kilo to per piece. How had you offered ? Would you have the choice? I don't, you'd off offer per kilo . Eggs and bacon and fried bread, it's about half past nine , to do something else, but he came tearing in, I've got to go to the office, she said, as though it was my fault, and he'd rung to make sure everything was alright, got no reply, and suddenly remembered that his secretary was going to have appointment , there's nobody there, so took off like a bat out of heaven. Oh should of been more organized. Oh really. He did get . I left a message about but eh O K, good. I'd like to put a little business down his way. Joan looked at him as though she thought that's exactly what it was , really It's quite something, that Noreen's taken to the typewriter, she hates it. . I was getting a new typewriter. Yes, also all that isn't it? Mm. Bingo what what, what, what, what, what, what. Wasn't what you were expecting was it? No, I think that might be because it doesn't include the welding grants, but even so, let's have a look at, down here Yeah, that's cost,, no it isn't here, yes it is. Gordon Bennett, that's an enormous saving. Does he ? Ooh ah The trouble is the figures keep changing, all the rest of it, you have to stay rather more alert than you choose. Go to . There's a po potential for a cock up is enormous. Probably never truly know order. That's right. Well, I can re-offer this at five hundred and sixty to the half thousand dollars, instead of, six hundred and eleven thousand, six hundred, that sounds like a ten percent reduction to me. Right, now. How does he know the plate price is high, he didn't make that quite, when I only gave him a total price Well I'm in including the . Price of electrodes seems alright, however, plate prices are very high. Well I, I've typed . You did, so he's come, he's knocking that list off the total figure, with, because that list was higher, subsequently I've managed to knock it down by about three or four percent anyway, erm, he's, he's knocking off a bigger sum than he should to produce a smaller welding price. Not the other way round. No, I don't think so, no, no. But I mean, that is a What would you do re-offer the whole thing? Yes I'm going to. There are some slight variations in it, and it's come from a different U S mill and, for example, there are three items at the end which were required and you offered us six millimetres, they're now six point three five millimetres, which is quarter inch, that's fine , erm . offered initially, you see, and then went back and do better. offered initially and they were followed up by Philip of Singapore and erm Look at the It was, it was indeed, yes, yes, yes, the original one where you added ten, ten, and erm, quote I think B C three New York. Yes, the flight was in. They were going to do the freight costs,to get any idea out of freight . Yes Might be our reward for doing . No. We we haven't got the order yet Lynda, but in the what sorry actually clearing up the . And we're still owed thirty five pounds, fifty . I was doing exactly what we were told to do. Ah . So is he under a misunderstanding about the erm, the erm, erm Probably. I think he thinks they're cheap. The welding rods. Welding rods. Erm Yes. Yes, but I've, I've only given him a lump figure you see. actually . Quite deliberately, because, that, I mean, his part of his message today, for goodness sake, is, since final size assortment is under preparation. That means they're going to take the matter , is that what he's saying? No way, no way. I'm going to get you to type this on Monday. Do you want it typed now? Have you got time? Well I'm only doing figures that can be, wait until Monday. It might They work tomorrow don't they? Yes, I haven't got welding rods and the stuff at this moment, but I can incorporate that. It's going to take me some time to type that list . Yes, I'm afraid it is Lynda, erm By the time I've got to the end of that I'd be . Yes I know it, erm I suggest we type it for faxing, have we got fax for these ? I don't know. It might be easier to get I don't think we can have banks, because I would of . No, quite, quite. Just trying to think where, we might find his, the fax. Erm, in the, maybe in the , probably telex things. Mm. It is, it is getting a bit daft, isn't it? . Also don't know what to do with it when we have it. Yes, well, commandeer, hire half of Bill's shed I think. On second thoughts we could plasticize and sit on it on the patio. . Alright doing it with again. . Then we'll have to tip someone on the floor. You'd they think . Yes, er, no, yonks and yonks, yonks, yonks, yonks ago we had one for a it's from them, absolutely ages ago So that's that lot If it's anywhere it'll be here. You see they've quoted C Freight, New York to Bombay, and it probably includes F O B New York on fifty tons, twenty thousand six hundred and fifty five U S dollars, now that is over four hundred dollars per ton, know that sounds generous to me Lynda. When you think you can go all the way from here to New Zealand for what, what was it? Well, well Ninety pounds . Remember that you've got some fairly chunky stuff here, you've got some pieces which weigh an awful lot, where's the You'd you'd think the . I'm talking by ton, yeah. Yeah, but what difference do you, do you think there might be a premium to pay for . Heavy chunks, er there's no way you're going to get some of this stuff into big big boxes erm, and I mean some of it, there's one piece here eight point nine metres long. Nine point six metres long, it's heavy and it's awkward. Seven, two fifty millimetres long, six point eight metres long, and when it's seven point two five metres by three point eight five metres, that's sixteen feet by thirty two feet, ehm, and it's thirteen millimetres thick, it ain't half gonna weigh.. . You you need need more more than one man to pick it up. Yes, I mean that's well over three tonnes a piece. Jolly good eh. I'd be actually move it . Well if that's their estimate, if it's possible that they're right, have you already then?. I queried it, I mean she gave me a precise figure of twenty thousand, and six hundred and fifty five something or other. But you haven't reduced that too . Well I actually went back and said I don't think it's going to cost anything, I told him original twenty four thou-, and I've halved it too about twelve thou. Twenty. Twelve thou, you see, I'm just wondering whether I should quote on a C I F basis which I can do you see, on the basis of, this if I add it up . . You see, it's another five per cent. Ah. I think it's probably going to be more frustrating to have a fax sitting there and you can't get through. Yes I agree. So shall I make a fresh cup of tea? Thank you, that was lovely, lovely, lovely, erm it's Mr , erm, and I suppose we ought to, no,ju ju just can you just pause a mo on it please because I'm just looking at the possibilities, there are two names that John has found us instrumentations. Oh right. No he wanted Right, that's, that's O K. I've done one. I did actually say to John, that we would look That the instruction instrument Sheffield. He he he says they're probably a bit of a general , but you can always ask them for their catalogue. Yes. I thought, I honesty did . Mhm. Oh, can't get the bag open. Ah Would you like to record a song for posterity Lynda? . Er, I . Yeah, well I'll enjoy it . There are several items here Lynda which are two piece construction. How we choose to do that, I don't mind. Ah, well, we want to say at the bottom items one five seven and twenty four are two piece construction. I think that's probably the best way of doing, leaving it out of the body, I've underlined it in each case here Right. just so that we make, oops, ha, ha, almost erm, the red prices are per piece C I F, C two. C I F, C two, alright, a a aha, dollars, dollars, O K? Hi dad. Hi Snoop how are you? Alright thanks . Had a great day? . Yeah O K, where did you get this dad? Oh it's a from a, it's a survey thing. Survey, what are they taping your business? No, no, no, they're er, actually recording sound, the sound of us for prosperity. Oh,really. Yes it is, it is, yes. It's er going into an archive, got lots of papers . Oh it just happened that way. No afraid not. Oh Bad luck. T S B four O nine or one three four O nine? B four O nine. B, and you changed items three,. Yes, that's right. Do you want two piece construction to go in as they've done it, or just one trip in the end? I suggest we put it once at the end as erm, item so and so, so and so, so and so, are two piece construction. You've written one in, that where they've . Where? Sorry. Oh yes, his cha yes the the size changed, I corrected the size on it, alright, your two or three feet is where they corrected and my pencil figure is the correct figure in those cases. Right. Aha. Do you have a reference or anything? Ah, no we don't I just head it,eight hundred H T Do you want my fax phone on the tape? That'll be a real bonus wouldn't it? I I Well it's supposed to be spoken English dear, I don't think, unless you can actually make it speak, it'll be terribly helpful. Make it . Ha, ha, would you close the kitchen doors, so that we don't get the washing machine singing too loudly for us, thank you. No, no, it's not ink oil at all, it's alloy, eight hundred H T. Eight hundred. A S T N B four O nine U N S N N one one. Include the trade name of and we're not buying . At least if we are, they're keeping awfully quiet about it. Yes from a different U S mill I think we can say. Is that making sense Lynda? that doesn't . Yeah. Very, very . I agree with you, yes, I agree with you, but eh, it's surprising how much more competitive it is. The metals remain nice and weak, I do wish wish we'd get on and get those orders in. He's gonna wait till the copper price zooms up again, then he'll be back, he never did, order those aluminum rods you know last year. No . Getting to be a hobby . Darn it . Yes. . No, no I'd I rather suspect that the erm, the cancelled the contract. Well if they, they may have bought from Japan or something of that sort, erm, gotta little bit stronger yesterday, one seven one three five in New York. Was it? Bill's really enjoying himself out there isn't he? . Goodness knows, demolishing by the sound of it. Right, erm, delivery on , please except work or Two weeks ex works yes. Te yes erm currently twelve weeks ex works erm. Do you know where in America? No, no, I wouldn't worry about that, er then, put,cur currently la la la la twelve weeks ex U S er U S factory, U S mill. Erm, plus delivery time to New York and waiting time for suitable vessel, how about that, really ratting it in. We'd love a cup of tea, yeah. Plus shipment time to India,. Plus sea transit, or something that sort, yes, yes. Erm, and then after that, no,car carry on with that, let let's get that one out of the way Erm, I think we'd better say, detailed were in electrode, prices to follow. Cos I'm actually looking at that. Right. Re-hashing it. Erm, oh let me just find the papers, see what No I don't think there's anything else that we can usefully say on there. You've already said, you want from credit, mm yes you have. Yes I'm certain I have elsewhere. Yes. Yes. Thank you for all that Lynda that's great. I'm, I, well I have to put this really ought to go in. Well erm, ha ha ha ha may I, may I have a look at it? Mm, don't forget the . Looks super to me Lynda. Well it probably rounded off to have a total VIF I mean, re-date the IFUT from there . Mm, mm, I think I'd better check it before we let it go on. Well I was just about to do that . With, were you? Great. Tear that, thank you. Do do, do you want to actually read through figures? If you like then, I mean I've done it. Right, let let, let me do the reading. Three pieces, thirteen by sixteen fifty five by eight, eight, O, five at one five, nine, nine five point six two each. Three pieces, thirteen by three eight, fifty by seven two fifty at thirty six four O, point two six each. Three pieces, thirteen by five fifty by twelve fifty at seven hundred and fifty six ninety. Three pieces, thirteen by two eight fifty, by two eight fifty, eight nine twenty three point O three. Three pieces, thirteen by one O five by seven six O at ninety six, ninety one. Two pieces, thirteen by two four O, by one O eight O, at two ninety nine, forty seven. Three pieces, thirteen by nine hundred by eight nine hundred at eight seven nine three point two five. Three pieces, thirteen by twelve hundred by eight seven fifty at eleven five twenty seven, fifty five. Three pieces, thirteen by four thousand by seven two hundred at three one six one eight point four, four. One piece thirteen by four five O by eleven sixty five, five seventy six poun dollars seventy. Three pieces, thirteen by two ten by seven two sixty at one seven five O point seven nine. Three pieces, eight by seventeen hundred by nine five, five O eleven four seven two point O two. Six pieces, eight by one fifty by sixteen ten at one seventy two point seventy two. Six pieces, eight by six twenty by six twenty, two seventy point nine two. Three pieces, eight by eighteen hundred by nine three hundred at eleven eight hundred and twelve point ninety nine. Six pieces, at sixty, six pieces, eight by one hundred by ten thirty at seventy two dollars and eight cents. This one. Thank you. Three pieces, eight by five hundred by nine O five O three eighty point three. Three pieces, eight by one twenty by one three point zero at one hundred and ten pound dollars sixty. Three pieces, fifteen by three fifty five zero by three fifty five zero by fourteen one three seven point five four. One piece, twenty by five hundred by ninety six hundred at eight zero one two Two pieces,by one six four zero by one six four zero at eleven point eight. One piece, six point three five ten point one, three three fifty, three five, five thousand by twelve hundred at six eight two point two three. Six pieces at by two thousand sixty to six point two five by forty by twelve twenty at twenty nine point six three Good. items, I've got items two, four. Yes. Nine. Yes. Twelve. Yes. Fifteen. Yes. Nineteen and twenty. Yes. That's all, that I can see,too pleased, but still. I think I shall if item one is, which is quite a biggie. Do you know I actually listened to some of this tape and I don't half sound different on the taped, the real me I sounds like the queen to me. . Which is I, yes I I thought I sounded much toffee-er than I feel I do. You gonna let me have a go ? No, no. Erm,. Right, in that case I'll do it, O K. How odd that I should be nine cents adrift I know. in that. I know. That is really odd isn't it? I agree. It's worse being nine thousand out . Oh absolutely, yes, yes, I been coun can you be nine cents out, I mean,tha tha there's nine of nothing there. Mm. so I think it's being a good idea to put the don't you? And, and I suggest total eh C I F C two of above is a . Well if I put it und at the end twenty five, four one end B item two four, you know, in other words just there. Yes. Fine. I I suggest again you say, dollars, C I F C two Total, ah, oh yes I will do. Total of above. Total of the above yes, yes that's great. twenty five items. Yes the twenty five items above, yes, good idea. Yes. where I mucked the whole thing up trying to get the And we thought that was a frightfully clever machine when it first arrived. Yeah. Who's got a posh H reg B M W? Bill, next door, he's d company d boss of a plastics company. Yes I agree. He had a perfectly good Audi when he moved here last year, so why in the heck does he need a monster B M W like that then? Simon actually counting up the cars next door, on the drive, getting , by that knowledge wanted to keep it. And eh, Simon got all the mud all and he said you know when I was young, we were ahead of the , but now we're well behind It it's up to you son. It's because of it that we bought . Yeah. Up to you sonny boy. I know two or three lads of the next generation beyond us who are doing in their twenties rather better than their fathers in their fifties. Yes. it's where they put the energy don't they? Most of them in banking or accountancy. The thing that about Bill is, he does have an amazing amount of labour saving gear, like electric hedge shears trimmers, and erm Graham's got that. He he he's got erm a pump for the erm, hosepipe, so that when he hoses the front or the car he's really got a spurt, yes, yes, he actually put's the hose in one side and goes sh shoots it out again. long enough. Well if you're gonna get the bottom of the garden where you're downhill it's not too bad but when you're coming up here and doing as he was watering the new grass on the front he he I mean yes he is below it it's the bottom of your storage tank in c in the attic which counts. Doesn't your outside tap come off of me? Cos I'm . Yes, oh, you may be right there Lynda you may be right. I thought . Now we don't have huge, we we.. we've turned down our thing so that we don't get the kitchen sink, which is also off the mains, brrrr splattering everywhere, so that could explain why mine isn't as good as it could be, yes you're right . actually quite strong, and I use the hose to rinse, I hose my car on Monday. Yes yes . I I've never done that before and I got drowned. I assume you're right Lynda, but quite frankly I don't know. I think Graham's got a lot, things like that, we've got electric hedge trimmer, those electric erm chainsaw and rotavator Mhm. and all things like that for the garden, we've got a lot of, I think the only thing that we really is a crunch-you-upper Oh really. whatever they're called. Yes, yes, treader. I think he would actually . Yes. Did you come to any conclusion, you looked at the Which Board on that didn't you? Yeah, I came to the conclusion I couldn't afford any of it. Ah, I thought perhaps you, you anticipated a husband without an arm or something. No that consideration, I think, you know if he didn't kill himself with a chainsaw he'd probably be alright with the shredder. I really thought we was going to end with erm,, cos he was sitting right at the top branch, you know sawing merrily through . With, with an electric, mains electric. Oh my god. Ooh. And we've got a circuit breaker touch and go. Yes, yes. Thank god he's got a circuit breaker. And I quite expected to erm, to one of the branches to bend, quite a height. Mm. And the chainsaw's very heavy. Yes. The number of bulldog clips on that order tray seems to Lynda, are they breeding? well . Who am I to say. Do you think we can can , yes do you think we can not get any more orders this month? Right. They said they're going to take ten days to make up their mind Lynda so we'll give them the benefit of the doubt. I think . No, I can, I can just about bear the in June not a Right. Yes please. Super. I didn't even write that one in the enquiry book, I'll do it now, now the values come down a bit. Yeah. Gosh, twelve orders are made out of it. Can't recall when we last had as many as that. No. Even . Well we'll except a Where's he going wrong? I thought I was superstition and not writing in the . Yes, yes I think you could be well be right there Lynda. You think it's superstition do you? Yes. Yes I'm sorry to have Not wishing to waste the ink. We're, we're six thousand seven hundred pounds short of last year's total. Six thousand, that's one . Now, do what do we consider ? Yes, I I want you to add another five percent. Yeah. Well the average is nudging fifty thousand a month Lynda. . All we got to do is keep it up, till the contact in . Strewth I'm hungry. chips . Of course, yes, he's not even, perhaps he'll bring the other pocket full of petit fours. yes. Do they have a prize for every customer do you think one way or a I'm . Are you implying gardener. Never occurred to me that he was anything but Lynda. I'm thinking of the other poor chaps who might not feel that they're getting cut glass decanters. . Thank . Ah, this is daft, yes. Big mistake to have a private . Amazing. They used Marsting that's quite yes, yes. tell me, didn't even ask me why I wanted to know. Looking at this . Very wise of him, you taking the dog? Yes. Right, I'll come with you if I may. Oh great. Erm going . Yes I had a feeling you might have done, we j we probably sent it and bamboozle him. Yes. We, that, which by the way is laboratory . Ah. But it, I think it's just about it. I think it . Really, yes, yes. Ha, ha, ha. But eh,. Yes. Anyhow I see what Richard comes up with, but I, I think it might be worth saying what about the . Yes, I think that's fair enough, let's get on with it and clear into out of the system anyway shall we? Got a bubble in it. Yes it has, it has Right well I hope you have a pleasant weekend. You do too. Yeah, we don't have any huge, oh of course I'm croqueting aren't I? Croquet, croquet. Are you ready Chris? Any second now. Leave it all till Monday Lynda, it's been a long hard week. Why is that? Yes, yes, are we? Are we going to right. O K, yes, we'll do that. Mrs er Bye bye Lynda. Bye. Long way to walk today. saying she's spoke to you about some development plan or something I she said shall I bring it round to you, I said no I'll ask . Yeah, quite right, eh Dillis has let planning permission . I know she has and er And she's a re-applied. Yeah. Is that all it's about? That's all it's about, a far as I'm concerned can sort out the problem. but er Ha, ha, ha, ha. Something about some development plan, then she says, ah, she didn't like how the houses were laid out because one was behind the other, but I saw the plan last time and, and, and it didn't look quite bad. Seems alright, yes. It it it's a problem isn't it? Oh yeah. Yes, come on Emma. In the car here dear. Yes come on. Good dog, in you go, right, thanks Tony bye. Tony's amazing . Yes, yes, it's sort of, all a bit naked isn't it? You have to clear up behind the tree bit. I don't think I'd like the idea . Yes. I don't want to argue with . Well as I stop by for training, look for something along our side if we choose is there? Well there is really,not and then we the unfriendly. Yeah, right, O K. I'd like to get, the reason I wanted to come here and go in my car Oh, sorry. It's alright, we'll go in your car. Yes. was because I want to go via Mottingham before I go to and buy a small plant. Ah, erm. And I saw them, well I think they're alright, I've got to look at them more closely, well I'd like to a, yes we are going darling, you're very excited. There Emma. Don't know who that lady,looking lady who waved at me is? Have you seen Betty around lately? Betty ? Yes. No I haven't in the last couple of days, she was around What, only in the last couple of days? Yes. That's nothing. Er we're going to Mottingham's centre aren't we? Gardening centre. No, it's not a gardening centre, it's a shop . Oh whereabouts? In the shopping parade, I'll show you where it is. Oh I see, right oh. Yes They have place that Rosemary mentioned, it's only opened on Saturdays. Yes. But erm, Liz is getting hassle from her insurance company about her claim on her new door. Oh yes. No what happened? No I don't remember your telling me. When Suzannah went down there,from last, she was strap strapping Layla into the back seat Mhm. for Liz, while Liz went into the house to get something, and someone came down Hurst Road, misjudged it, and scrapped the car door, bashed Lizzie's side and scraped along side of her car, as she drove past . Yes. And it meant a respray on her car and a new door for Lizzie's car, sit down. Right. And Jim said she was going far too fast, took up all three car lengths, parked cars to stop. Phew. And, and obviously she was going to . Yes. And happened, opened the door any wider, cos she was still strapping the child in. Of which she had been doing as Liz left the car. Yes. Was Suzannah hurt? No, she wasn't, only the car door. Yes. But now Lizzie's insurance company have said they'll do what they can for her, but as she had opened the door into the oncoming traffic, probably was her fault. And this took place in Hurst Road? I mean Yes. tha that's a bit of a nonsense to my mind. Well exactly, I mean there's double parking in a single line and the lady weary. You can't move at more than about fifteen miles an hour maximum down Hurst Road anyway can you? Anyway, Liz is a bit annoyed because she doesn't want to lose her no claims bonus. Absolutely. Absolutely right, yes. And I feel in a way slightly responsible that it was Suzannah. Well I don't suppose Suzannah was doing anything she shouldn't have been. No she wasn't, but even so, you know, I said that to Liz, Liz said oh it's not, it's nothing to do with your responsibility. E even so she has to pay the first something or other you, as one does in a claim Yes. towards the new door. Yes. She said I've paid that, that's not a hassle or, anyway she's paid it, she's said that's not a hassle, but er, I thought well maybe I some money, I don't know, what do you normally pay on these things, twenty five, twenty six? Oh its variable. But it does, so, she said she hasn't got an up to date highway code knows anything about it about taking repair in narrow street . Well I found a couple of possible useful quotes of the highway code. Mm. Good. I, I'm going to if you like. Well she, I gave her the the clause number thing. Right should be fighting for her on this not giving way Well I mean, who's her broker? She doesn't have one you see. Oh, she should use Jeffrey hasn't she? No, she didn't say. She feels that they're not really interested as long as, you know Well I wouldn't, I, I would recommend that you tell her to contact Jeffrey, say will you take this on for me please, and ca carry my car insurance for me in future. by prescription . For anything? Well for all the . Yes. Geraniums for one forty five each there, dear. Incredibly expensive, yes. . These aren't Right, do you want to go to the garden centre at Mottingham? Where's the garden centre? Other end of Mottingham Lane. Oh thank you, yes. Oh hang on a minute my wallet. I've got some money. I've only got three thank you. Yeah, thanks. Thank you guv, care to pay for it? Yes I've paid for it . Have to have . I didn't get anything. No. They they've got a free nylon bag in, in those where they . Right, shall we get in the car then? I don't think they make they make those any more, nobody seemed to have one yesterday Really? Mm. In Bromley,. Alright now. Alright . Thank you. Are you good dog , are you good dog? She is . We want to go back up again don't we? We can go down to that one, oh no we don't, no you're right, we want to go back up again . Unless we go from this end, yes you can go. It doesn't really go through, does it? Oh , I don't mean that road, no. There it is the end look. Found it, yes that's right. You got to go . Aha. We have to then drive round again to get home. You can get into Mottingham when there. Or you can go in there. We do that well. Oh, you had a good day today? Mm. bring a, I knew there was something else I had to bring fabric . Did you get the library books back? Not really warm is it? It isn't warm at all. Suzannah said that she might be going up tomorrow evening. Aha. Not definitely. Right. There's fallen tree in the park. . Relatively recently. . They seemed to keep . Yeah yeah it's fascinating to think why that particular tree actually keeled over, and all the others around, it's no bigger than the others is it? don't know . Well look at the size of it's trunk. It might have been . It might have been, yeah, just a one. She waits all day for this, it's the best bit, this and supper. . It's not supper time yet Digger. Yeah . Use up all in the fridge Has you got lots of bits left over? before I go shopping . Well I got some . Things never come and they have . Aha. fridge require . Yes. Yes, she's very disheartening the way she picks at it I should think. Very disagreeable that's for sure. Besides . Yes I like it, fish pie or something. Quite incredible. Cos of me. It's not . No we're not in the woods proper here. This is woods. Must investigate this Mottingham garden club. I think it . Well fifty pence a year, I think I might even be able to afford to belong to it. Sorry. What river would that be? Would be Kidbrook I suppose would it? . Oh yes, yes. Fine looking bird, is that a female? A female usually very , but, I don't know, it looks a young bird to me. Good colouring anyway. You excuse me looking old fashion , it's not like black bird or . I need something for that other tub now, I'm thinking of lobelia around the edge. I need something. Depends where we're going to put it. If we're going to keep it there on the patio,. Yes. Like the other one,. Such a naked isn't it? It could do with an awful lot more trees all over it. in the last fortnight. Yes. brought dog along here. That Saturday I said I was going to collect John's suitcase from Susan. Yes. Erm. Came this way? I, I came this way and called on Susan, she wasn't in, I ran the dog round here and er called on Susan again and she still wasn't in, so that was that What a good dog. They're really going to town on these pavements aren't they? Amazing. I suppose they thought they're pretty bad. Mm. Apparently state of pavements is the thing that people complain about most to local councils. Pretty scruffy yard isn't it? scruffy. Why have you heard me say it before today Seems strange that they need to throw out those old curb stones, you'd of imagined they could of used them again, wouldn't you? They use the . I'm gonna ask Suzanna how Sarah's getting on tonight . the same time. Yes. Not . Whoops . Thank you, now er. You're a girl aren't you, No I've got nothing else to be doing at this moment. Been up the library. Good. More books for the half term. Good. Just six weeks till the end of term because I've got my books for six weeks and they've used, date stamped in them is the last day of term can't be bad can it? No it can't, it'll be nice to see the back of them,. I think of the vast amount of work I've got planned for six weeks, makes me wish it was about ten. I'm glad it's not. You'll be working twenty four hours a day for those six weeks as it is. . Have a lavish party instead of a July twenty seventh. June. What are you going to celebrate then? That all my reports will be done. Then that's all I've got to do is my records then. Who you going to invite to the lunch party? Anybody else completed their reports? What on all the staff you mean? Did I tell you, I mentioned to er Ray about Phil and he remembered him. Yes I think you did. Some conference in Eastbourne, or whatever. You ought to remember him from Becksley, surely Well they didn't teach in the same place, so why should they? True. Erm, I mean, they, they met occasionally, but er, no particular reason to remember. I had quite a good chat with Ray the other day, yes, eh. Paul looks better, I seen him rushing down the road at great speed to catch the train, not looking as white as he was a few months ago. Really? In fact he's getting over his illness. Do you think it was genuine? What do you mean by that? Did I, do I think ? Yes. Oh why should he do that? Well,. I mean it's one of those things, that eh Why on earth should he want to , they're only going to sell for his own work if he doesn't. Yes. It really is a bit odd the way those two bits of the wood do not connect. Do, have you somewhere. Well, the green chain walk went up in through, into the houses. So eh, I doubt that it does. . Have to look on a map. Thick dog you are Digger. Busy road to live on this isn't it? Yes it is actually. Too fast. Does she find it busy? Perhaps she can sell them a few sleeping policeman, I can't remember her saying so as such. I spoke to Tony today. Oh yeah, on what? Oh, scientific instrumentation. Got a chap in Japan who wants some. He's a bit woolly about what he wants. Tony gave him the name of his, pal of his, who is professor of biochemical engineering as in University College, London. You're panting Digger, do you fancy a gin? eh? Just a drop of water. Dog, dog size gin. A very mean one. She's alright today she's had a bone, haven't you? Yes. Did she bury the Bonio yesterday or she actually end up crunching it? I bet she ate it, she's not as daft as she looks. Oh, aren't you really Digger, I always thought you were pretty daft. She looks pretty. pretty. Interesting that Bill's going to go to the trouble of taking out windows putting in Well John was saying to me, that eh, Bill is such a perfectionist that although he's done good works already, he will ensure that every single corner of that house will be immaculate and exactly the way he wants it, but it'll take him three or four years to do it. Oh, I think it took us about seven years to get every room in our house Well, that, that was just to take down one reel of wall paper on. . I hate decorating. Do you? Yes, it's dreary. It's so nice . When I'm old and retired, I still got . You'll take up decorating will you? No I shall not take up decorating. Shall take up gardening. Oh will you, oh. People like gardening . You mean your parents' house? No I mean when . Oh right, yes. Sorry we didn't get any plants. Well there's no point, I, I had to stand there choosing in all that . They didn't look very spectacular, I didn't know what the price was, but they certainly didn't look all that special. No the ones down the corner looked better at , but I just didn't feel like standing there in the cold. Mm. There's another place that's selling quite good looking plants and that's White Horse Hill, erm, on the opposite side from the pub a bit further on towards . Really? Yes, it's, it's a sort of newsagents come , a few little shops in the parade Yes. on the right there, and they have a great rack full of plants standing there. There used to be a place who, place opposite on the same side as the the White Horse that eh, was selling plants, but don't like that naked fence at all. Oh I don't mind it, if it's going to be eh Bring back the ivy I say. No, no, look I must ring here, we have a bit on to that behind the tree, you can let that happen . Yes, yes, that, that will be if it's still there. Yes, but I don't think we should try and make this happen. No, O K that, that ought to be pinned down . Ought to have a crack at that some time. You shouldn't do it at . Oh no, I'm sure. Do it after. Is there anything in the boot? Yes, fine. Oh and your handbag. I . These days they tend to think that , something you should save, and not waste in the garden. Yes, but on the other hand Yes, yes, he is Katie, thanks . Oh do you want this in your thing for, oh no it's not for school is it, no, no, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry. Oh yes, right. I thought it , these look pretty. They are pretty aren't they? They are original geraniums They're lovely. I think. Yes, the, the delphiniums don't produce much of a bloom. Oh they, they . Do they? Like they have to take time to establish. Well that one over there is the established one. Well that's alright. Yes, yes. I always think of delphiniums as having blooms right the way up the stalk. You may be wrong. Ah never dear, me be wrong. smothering the rose. . Well, well it's, it's driving into the rose, here which is not very clever. Yes, you see it,into the rose. I've never seen it so flourishing. No because, William never had, never cut it back. Oh really, really, yes. Whenever I planted it, I used to cut it right down. Well I must say I much prefer it like that cos it covers up the ugly fence. Well it's not beautiful is it? Oh really, what's that another fuchsia isn't it, erm fuchsia, there were Has it been watered today? Yes,there were two plants . Perhaps that needs a stalk in the middle. Murray overseas, can't quote today, first thing Monday. Thanks Debbie I've got the message. There Mm. Why not?want any due? No. Oh. How many have you got next week? About twelve. Ha ha. I shall leave you to it. How many have you got ? All and they'zre tomorrow. I'm sorry I've missed that. Well, that doesn't matter, it's me it's recording and whoever I talk to. Why are you recording you though? Aha ha. Cos I'm really rather super that's why. Gosh mum leaves this lying around doesn't she? Mm. Wonderful for stubbing toes on. Madame, may I pour you, have the pleasure of pouring you hot . . Right, by all means. Dry or middling? I'm middling. Middling, I hope I've got some middling, I'll go and have a look. Right, I see what's what. I might buy another pair tomorrow. Right, were you going to sit now? I'm going up to. Right well. Taking Ceila with you or what? No. Alright Your party fruit sherry my dear, I er Sherry's a food, I'm not coming this month. I'm just doing the dogs though. I just had a chat with Christine. fitted in? Just fine. Colin? Fine, yes, yes, yes . Oh Shep , mate, what you treading on me again. Christine says her blood pressure is O K, all's well then. Been that has she? I think she's been back to her G P. Do you want anything? No . Well we're having prawns and something are we? I'll get the nibbles. . Oh hello pussy cat, you look cosy. Oh you've got another pineapple, well done. Great. next week. Here we are look. Do we have some serviettes? What'll we want, fish knives? I don't mind. is it fish pie or what? Well you don't like the fish pie. D'you think you could get some non brand cereals tomorrow? Please. I bought one today. Did you, thank you. I don't know, I haven't looked, let's see. they're all quite . Oh love, oh super, oh . with me. It depends on the .. in there. Oh good. , can't imagine anything looking nicer than . Shall I open a bottle? Fish wine? Yes Christine was happy enough. All is well down in Devon. Steven and his numerous family are still on the canal's somewhere having a hol . Did you enjoy that little nonsense. Do they go too, Snoopy, or not? Yes, yes, yes, yes. darling. Too good. Smells delicious, have some more wine, sherry? Erm,. Good. I think smoked haddock has a really good flavour, aroma, aroma, as well as flavour. Thank you. You're welcome. Please don't burn the paintwork. I won't. Incidently Sorry. incidently it's not a good idea to leave the double glazing bit swinging, erm, or, or the other one. The other one come come come crashing through the double glazing. Yes, exactly. Oh your orange bit's looking very good isn't it? Best . I think . Yes. Can you shut the door ? Hardly when we steamed up like this. That's Edward Fox on the radio. Aaargh. Brushing past the plant and it fell over, that's all. This place is turning into a jungle. It is, it is a jungle already. It's lovely isn't it? smell. Would the last of the . Would the last of the . Lovely greenery dear. Oh are we everything we do? Why, why does it worry you? It doesn't worry me, it's just a bit silly walking about with a voice you. Here we are.. Thank you dear. Mum, did you make my sandwiches today? No. Didn't think so. Should've made them . They were nice. Were they nicer than usual? No, different. Different. What was the difference? Got prawns and garlic. What the flavour in the prawns you mean? No, garlic. considering I with it. There was prawns with garlic mayonnaise. Mm. Looks very green dear. It's lovely. Do you think I'm environmental? Why did they choose you to tape? Ha, there was a knock at the door. Nah Nah or no? I'm to explain roughly what they're up to, so I invited them in, they then explained exactly what they were up to ,fine I'll do it. I'll be pleased. You can turn the radio off darling, we're not listening to it. They say you could borrow the Walkman? They gave me, the equipment, and the tapes and the batteries and eh, the recorded paper and all the rest of it, cos that's part, essential part of the whole thing. You hang, handed back didn't you? Oh yes, yes. How many people are they taking then? I've no idea, I didn't ask. what work they use, in general conversation these days. Oh, accents, things like that. Spoken, spoken English as opposed to record of written English, that's the essence of it. If I'd taken it, the language would be different. Of course, but I think they'll have a wide Mm. variety of people, otherwise their research isn't valid, is it? Yes, the, the lady in question was saying what, she had to have, I think, I think what she was saying was, that for every person over forty five she had to have somebody under forty five. Presumably the same number of men as women and Yeah, probably. What, do you have to stand there when you walk down the street, and when you go to Only when you're having a conversation. When I answer the telephone, I switch it off. I done that numerous times today but I'm trying to do it right by keeping it going all the time when I'm likely to be in conversation, so there are occasional blank spaces on the tapes. It was quite funny yesterday, because, he, when I went out in the garden there was a football nestling in the rose bushes, I heaved it back over the fence, thirty seconds later the two boys came roaring out of the house, and about thirty seconds after that It's back over again. it, no, it's up in the app top of the apple tree, and they were chucking sticks at it, trying to get it down again. Why don't you just open the back gate so that they can come and collect their stuff when they want it? Well I've said it actually, if you do it frequently you can't be bothered I suppose. Probably their dad said you mustn't go in there too often. Mm. It takes snob You'll be pleased to know dad, that I am going to go to the tomorrow night. Oh Oh no You haven't been there for ages. Mm. utterly overwhelmed dear, why? Going . Does she go there from time to time? Mm. Has she said there's much the same people there or different crowd? Same people really. Does she still see Judith? Judith . I find that hard to believe, how she . Pardon? Exactly. So Sam doesn't like her either. Mm. It's not so much not liking, it's not really trusting people, like us. I think not liking must come into it partly. Mm Mean to say , that, that's the honest . It doesn't mean , it doesn't endear you to people does it? No exactly, not likely my dear. No I don't dislike Judith. No, quite. No. I just wouldn't, if she rang up and says I'd say no thanks. Yes quite. Thanks very much. You don't like her. No. You've no reason to like her. Mm. Okay. Why somebody lets me down like that . You're not, you don't trust them, you're not going to put yourself on the line are you, suppose . There's plenty of other people in the world. you might think of some. She's not really very with it, is she? Not very intelligent. Not sort of thing even if she did . No, I, I wouldn't write her a snidey letter, I'd sit down and say look . I haven't seen him since Oh. Not planned to see . , his name, address,. Why? What was that for? You . That reminds me Why did you want ? Cos Mrs wanted her to use her . Oh. It's a question of how you dance round them I suspect rather than the actual pole. Mm. She wanted someone who would teach them, erm,. Remember that silly thing we did at school once me with Charlotte and Suzanne and somebody else, do you remember? There was four of us and . . Use the erm, they they invited the Chislehurst May Queen,dan maypole dancers to come to the next open evening. No I'm not talking about that. Oh sorry. At Bromley High. No I don't remember. At a silly sketch. I never saw it. You did, you did,floppy hats on. Don't remember that. You must of done it, for the six, for the within the school, not for the . Mm.. Do you remember dancing at the hospice? Mm, yes. hospice, yes. I remember that. It was sunny and I'm not sure. and Katie, Katie were there. dancing. Were they? Hi, that's alright. How you feeling now? Better tonight than I did last night. Why? I was very tired after spending that long day in the school. Yes, yes. Up and down, up and down. How much of a display have you got so far? Mm, the best part of three boards, four boards . Oh more now. Plus the plus the . come afterwards. One board's finished, another board is nearly finished, closed the food board, I've got one of bones and skeleton . Mm. There's a wonderful picture of the, body of a a women all curled up in today's paper. I've got another board on food and . They're quite fun and I've quite a lot of that up, and I've got another board on, half of it's and half of it sleep. And that's pretty well . And I've got a fourth board on exercise and I've two boards I haven't started. One's going to be shape I've got a lot of material to go on it, we haven't made the backing. Mm. This is why I couldn't start that, but I have . Yes. And the other one, we haven't started the work for yet, because now we're starting into water, so, erm, in the next ten days we'll do some work on water and that's the water board . Yes,. Well, I'm going to start on , I've cut up some so I'm going to finish cutting them up and lay them out . Then I'll go onto . Dissolving that's how it can be effec that may do the writing a piece of poetry, I've got a little poem written down . We've made some water bridges in a clay which I have to put in the kiln on Monday,. Will your monster germ be part of the big show? Yes, he, I've got a lot of germ poems Oh charming. and I've mounted them on green germ, but I'm going to put them on a table, and then hang the germs from the ceiling or something, round, cos I haven't got a board for that. Mm. We were going to do a lot more work Hard luck. on germs and diseases and cuts and first aid things, after the St. John's Ambulance , but since it never happened No. Oh don't. No, I shall, yes, yes. we didn't, we didn't carry on with it. That was bad, Mrs should be taken to task for that. She misjudged it, she should of rung on the Friday. She should have rung immediately and said there was a question mark. Well when she did it, well that was the Friday , when she did it Yes. and said what had happened, and I also spoken to Cathy. Cathy would have come Yes. or sent someone else. Oh indeed she would, and Cathy would have been sensitive enough to appreciated the need of teeny weenies. Oh yes,. Mm. Another thing she couldn't step in, and do it over the head with someone who was supposed to be doing on that March. No, no no, no. But having left till the morning when she was due, I couldn't even let Cathy know because it puts her in an awkward position, suddenly turn up on the day. But it was Friday she did it, and Thursday we were expecting her, so there would have been time when she had . I mean she hadn't even let me know the night before. Mm. It was only a chance that I rang her. Yes, the, the night before. I rang her the night before to say what visual aid do you want, do you want the overhead projector, or the video or what would you like yes. Yes . Mm. cos she said she'd need something, but she hadn't specified it. I don't know what was in mind, then she told me, what the problem was. Said I was going to get, ring you tomorrow morning if I couldn't come. Very unprofessional, very unsuitable. But I was hoping I would be , be better. Now I don't know what to do, I was going to write to Cathy after and thank her Yes, quite. but now I don't know whether to pretend, just to leave it, or to say anything, don't want Cathy to think I was ungrateful. I still haven't got my first aid certificate. I think perhaps, I shall contact Cyril, and say how about that drink we we've agreed to, we, we've enjoyed together? I should Couple of months , well couple of months ago we said, you know, we live close enough for goodness sake let's get together one night. Yes. And you'll have a chat with him. Yes. Mention it. Mentioned it, and then, quite embarrassed , cos she think Yes. Ring Cathy and mentioned it, but she was grateful for having interest. Yep. I might be more inclined if mentioned it and hadn't said. But Cathy has been coping with leukaemia. So which I was told. Which I didn't know. Cathy who? No nobody knows. , one of the old Greenwich . She got leukaemia? Well she may be better now, I don't know anything about it except dad heard that she had had it, or was being treated for it. Yes, yes. What's for pudding? Fruit. So I didn't want to burden her by being awkward about it, make her feel bad about it, equally I haven't really thanked her. Mm. The only second phone call I had was to say what is happening. Yes . Yes, well. She had contacted this Mrs , would you like to do some planting? Well maybe nobody wants to. Snoopy that's not the way you pass things round, it is? You pick up the dish and . Well what do you want? You don't like these apple now you're going to have an orange. Very sweet of you to choose for me dear. I don't mind thank you. What can I do for you, an apple, nothing? Can you have half of one of these? No thanks, I had that at lunch time didn't I? I try to have two pieces of fruit a day, one being an orange the other an apple, or an alternative pear Oh she doesn't have an apple. You had an apple today, you had that. I had that extraordinary cox yes. And did you have an orange too? No, I was the one that had the orange you didn't. Oh . Oh goody goody, I shall have an orange. You are allowed two a day. I'll have that one. That's right. Where did you eat your lunch today? At at college. Are you allowed to eat your own sandwiches in there? Yeah . Well I don't know, I'm Lying in the park at the back I would have thought. Chilly it would be. You're young enough not to notice. You . How many of your erm, friends actually bring sandwiches to They come, there's two of us Anita Sarah doesn't . Yeah. can't afford . Ha, sort of your situation isn't it? Why don't you stay for school lunch instead of sandwiches? Is there still a boycott at the canteen? No.. Is that because they've got fed up or because things have improved? Probably got fed up. Nothing's improved . How can you at college, I mean I know there's your course, but I didn't know about that until you enrolled for it. I've only heard of it at the fashion college. Hairdressing. Mm. Fashion. Mm. Beauty. Mm. Yeah, theatrical make-up. Theatrical make-up, really? . Theatrical , erm, period costumes,. Millenary had a lovely old fashion rings. Do you only see the girls on model ? Mm. What, has she finished her ? Good for her We, do you know what our canteen did? We paid for all these dodgy old ladies They did, they come in and they us and then they go home again. Who are they? Nobody knows. I think you should do a survey, approach them with a clipper board as they come in and say Which course you on? delighted to see you, Well it's a joke , because, they take up all the seats, like they're in two seats of four, and a, there is no way you can , half the students , these silly old people come in and they take up four seats and eat our lunch. You for everybody . Yeah, but at times they're expensive. Shouldn't be, the more people that eat it, the cheaper it, the, should help keep the prices down. Yeah, but they do though.. Certainly Perhaps it's the college's bit of charity. Even the canteen staff don't know who they are. Bet they do. Ladies from the street, with poor with poor pensions . Yeah they're regulars, they come in every day. Mm . I don't think, eh,college of fashion should be supporting the ladies of the streets dear. I like it though. Maybe they're the cleaners. You mean bag ladies or street ladies? Bag ladies. Aha. I know they're definitely not cleaners. Do you . No. Right, one woman she comes in, with an ice cream tub, and fills up with food and goes home, in an ice cream tub. She must be very poor. Erm you don't know you know because the more our college prices keep going up and up, B H S on it, they are cheaper than our corned beef. Yeah, well,. Why do a, er, an old lady come in and fill up an ice cream tub, do you mean an old ice cream tub? Yeah. She brings one with her? Yeah. So where she fill it up from? The canteen. The people fill it up for her. Do you give her a little bit of they're It's hers, put a Ice cream tub. Does she pay for it? I don't think so. Strange business. Yeah, but . Maybe not. But then again the students' bar is ridiculously cheap. Do they go into the bar? No. thirty P for a coke. Fifty P for a Cinzano and lemonade, or whatever. Mm, mm. What's a pint of bitter? Don't know . You know, how come the bar managers Oh sorry Ella. erm, how come the bar meals used to be so cheap when the canteen's . Yes. Of course,, there's a big profit.. It seems to me this student bar, does have to make a vast profit. Anyway it's probably run by students. . Yeah it is. Is there bar students? Is there a steward? Might be a man in charge, but they probably don't have to pay lots of wages. There is there No. And make lots of profit. But, I don't think it makes any profit, but, you know,profit. That's why it's cheap. Mm. Whereas pubs are different, they are out, they have to pay a lot of people and their rent and everything else and they are ours to make a profit. . Except for a small diversion and nibble some bits of lamb when I was cutting up the meat lunchtime, and to try and serving of it. When we were out front earlier today, Rocket tried to take a short cut across the front garden, Candy saw her off, like a . Who's Rocket? Petrol pussy cat. Don't say it like that, I've never met any of the labouring animals. Oh, it's a nice little young black and white cat, very white Stray cat. . Ah yeah. But Ella or Candy are not at all friendly. Tut. We know that though. Who's that she used to beat poor and No.. Really. Ha, ha, ha. It doesn't matter does it? No. As long as we, she goes on being . At least we know where she drinks. What do you have to say to that? Any booked? Yeah Mm. Going to the library . as a library employee, does she get a benefit? What benefit do you get from a library? No, I meant, I meant from booking the cinema. I shouldn't think so for a minute darling. Yes, what's the library got to do with the cinema? Not a lot, but there's a leisure point which tells you everything that's happening in Bromley, inside the library, did occur to you No, no I got it out, I got it out of the papers last night. But you didn't book the tickets out of the papers last night dear. Oh,. She went into the cinema and bought two lovely tickets. Bought two. Oh really enjoy that don't you? I like The big guy,beard, that is head boy . Steven was there so I gave . Wouldn't have a chance to would we?. I'll wash up first. No, I'll wash up when I've trained. No I'll have you got a ticket . It'll be over and done with by then won't it? , water in here, what? Does he have a ? No he doesn't. So he might not get in? No. Stain in the outside, but I can't see any sign at all. Well no it's not, no it's not. Pardon? It'll be, it's not just look, staining if you look, there's above the level on the , of the water. Yes, probably. Mind your nose Digger. How do you recognize Jasmine? A tiny leaf isn't it? Right, right. It's not been fed for two years has it, so Oh don't . You can always tell when you've had a glass of sherry , come all . Well it's true isn't it? I mean it hasn't actually had any grow Had it instead of taking . Super. It's probably why I can actually see it peeping out over the top. What's this plant? in the arrangement I had on my birthday. Oh. Do you want me to take cuttings of it?. No, no, it's just root. Oh. I just thought I might put some more flowers in it.. No reply? No, playing football. So he won't be coming out? No he might come. Him and David a few beers What you doing with the mum? I'm just seeing if the water's going up the drains. Are you sure you ? No, just leaving for now . When I got to school I will . What does it actually prove, osmosis or diffusion? Osmosis. Pardon? I think it's osmosis. Ah, that's the passing of a , erm, er, erm, something, no it can't be osmosis, cos it's a part of membrane. Passing of a liquid No diffusion. liquid, no diffusion can anywhere, doesn't have to pass membrane at all. Passing of a liquid through a membrane leaving part of it's substance behind. It's something to . It's absolutely nothing Osmosis is the passing of water from a place of high water density to place of low water density. Boom, boom, super. Is that right ? Yes what does that mean in practice Snoopy? Don't know. Where does osmosis occur dad means? It's anywhere. Like, such as? Body. Does it? From where to where in the body? Kidneys or something like that. I don't know. Why do we need to know about osmosis? We don't, I'm just telling dad, cos he How come you know about it? college. Yes, but I mean, how? I can't remember. Ah, well There's er no practical application as far as you know. There must be. Yeah, things in the body and I can't . Well really, what I'm trying to tell the children is that plants need water, it drinks up water in order to live. Yeah, Drink, you can't see it if you put them in water, you just know the water's gone but it might of evaporated. I just make them see the colour going up the stem of a plant. You can do it with a turn the carnation pink or you know it's white, that sort of thing. I was just having a little experiment to see how it takes and how strong it is and I know what I'm doing. Well I can't see that that would actually prevent action. Well that's all it is. Is it? Oh. Try to prove anything is so the water travels up the plant, I can't think of anything . You haven't got a plant there have you? A theory is a plant, what else does it do? No not when it's chopped off top and bottom like a stick from the fridge dear, it's not a plant. It is a plant. Oh. I'm coming. residential if you don't . Bill's lilac is dead. Philip , left hand column there . Never heard of that . Doesn't sound worth bothering really. Very short cutting, low . They're a bit skinny aren't they? That's quite a good idea. Mm. Well we can do that from the oak container out there. That's nice. There were two different ivies in that weren't there? plants in there, that's the climbing cybilia the upright cybilia,pretty in the top. That looks like lettuce. Lettuce. I don't care . Ha, ha, ha, ha,. geranium. Sort of geranium crossed with ivy. I think of eh, tend to think of the yellow, er browny shades as being azalea, rather than rhododendron. Mm. White, pink, red into purple Right know There are indeed, yes, but you don't tint, get the, the yellows into rhododendrons do you? Not that I've ever seen, no.. Yes, I've got lovely purply of variety. When you get such a splodge of colour eh, it's difficult to know just how well adjusted your colour level is on the television. Do you know if there's a soil in our garden to come up? No. I'm afraid I don't. Buy a little kit can't you?shops if it's worth growing for them. It means that they . Yes. Extraordinary colouring, extraordinary, now's the time one ought to be out and about, seeing that sort of thing. This is Things like Saville Garden. this is the season, yes. Linda loved it at Saville Garden last weekend, weekend before.. They certainly plant them quickly. Mm. Beautifully prepared soil, I mean you try that with our soil you'll damage your fingers, it's like a flipping rock. Not with your fingers you didn't. Yes I did. my fingers . Do you want to go and have a jazz tonight? No not really. The only comment on the rhododendron came first On how it'll grow them you mean? Yes. Plenty of comments otherwise on them. Oh yes, how do you get them?. Really? I let . I've never heard of it. Got those pink violets. Yeah, yeah. I know it comes in various shapes though, the tail's very dark. Would you like the news? What's it gonna, follow here? I don't remember. The Real McCoy, black comedy. Sounds rather hard. Oh it always is, isn't it? Go and live there. Don't seem to have any homes. They're doing away from their homes. You're driven away by the army. Yes. Famine, the Army, I mean lack of rain and all that sort of thing. Derek's picking you up about two tomorrow. Right, after lunch. Yep. Do you have any indication when ? No. pretty well. Mm. Before you go I don't suppose we'll be there for more than two, three hours. Oh, you might as well. You know we was talking about ? Yes. There's the . Technology use, use the purest water. Yes. . It's the basis of redial dialysis. Boiling water removes bacteria and not removes, dissolves . Well there's a signifi the, the osmosis really is a membrane which allows water to go through, but nothing else. The promise of rain is rather pleasant isn't it? You my love. Oh I recommend the Philip erm,. Snoopy have a good day today? . Somebody else . Oh she sweated at it, yes. She did the sweating instead of the instruction, yes. Atoms felling pollution, I like that. Mm, I heard this discussion on the radio this morning. What about? Erm, quoting. Quoting? Yes. I do a lot of that. What? Do a lot of quoting, but don't get many orders out of it. Oh yes. I thought the second half of it was hilarious I've read it before. I thought the first half was funnier than the second half. Mm I've read so much tonight,. Well the French Connection starts on T V at ten o'clock so come and watch that. Classic film dear. I don't know, probably. About an hour and a half later. Right. Yes As we're not conversing very much I'm going to switch this machine. How are you this morning? O K Nothing in the mail this morning. Hello I'll have a look. There's only a bag of peat on the doorstep, here it is look, indoors Have you had some breakfast? No. Take it off the yoghurt pot . Hello Thank you very much. Sign Yes sure. Right, just this, anywhere? sign it Right, what is this Datapost? No,. Similar sort of thing is it? Thank you. Lovely. Thank you very much. Thank you. Bye. Bye. Shall I cut you some toast? Couple of pieces? one. O K. Did you ever decide whether you were going to go and do that course . I've said no, hang on what's that? Why did you decide no? What, no, nothing to do with the Open University. Why did you decide not? I decided it was jolly expensive and eh, wasn't going to do what I felt I wanted it to do. What was it? What were you aiming to achieve? Confidence, public speaking, capability. to look for something else then? It's alright, we don't have to do anything Really, aha. for a minute. ready to cook. Aha. Goody, goody. Sorry, you're going to freeze it? Yes. Yes. Oh well done. Very good. What time you due at the hairdresser, quarter to? Five minutes to go. Would you like me to try Veronica later or deliver that? Good dog, good dog. Hello girls. Would you like your car washing? Would you like your car washing? What a lovely idea, I don't think so though, thank you very much, you're very well equipped, I'm very impressed. No thanks very much indeed though. Alright then. O K thanks. Did, did get a swirl earlier this week, thank you very much. Bye. Bye. Bye. We've just had half an hour in Jubilee park, extremely brisk walk, I feel ext jolly toasty now. How was your outing? Oh. Good looking buds on there aren't they? I do miss that pole sticking up there . Don't worry about it. not quite right, but if I go it'll break back off. A well exercised beast there I think. I'm going to cook this Chris, right now. Good. I just fancy it. What is horrible,the taste. How you going to do it, microwave? No. Cook it. Roasting, place in a baking tray, gas mark five for thirty five minutes. So it's on is it? So it's thirty five minutes. Yes. Good. Cooking time will need to be extended when cooking more than one product at a time. I'm only cooking that. Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. It is straightforward, thirty five minutes, shall I set thirty five? Phorr, sticky out there isn't it? It's not very agreeable at all, is it? I forgot to take those rotten grapefruits back to Sainsbury's. Oh did you tell them? No, what, what would that do. Well I mean that, they don't expect necessarily to see the evidence do they? Not a lot of people in the park. Where'd they go? I'm not surprised. in the park. Whoops, bad luck, your toe? Oh dear,hurt me. Why won't you go to the chiropodist. Because I keep bumping them it's got nothing to do with the chiropodist. I can get you some army boots. Bumped my toe this morning.. Those green things are for Susannah's picnic. Oh when she having a picnic? Well she has one every day. Oh I see, yes, I see. What have we here? The pond, pond weed, water weed. don't touch that. Oh, got the beasties in too has it? I'm going next door. Right. I think I will have a drink. Yes, what would you like cider? No, a sherry. Sherry right. What you did was press, if it was water like Just plenty of water and then put that in. Yes, the water temperature's well Right. I'll put the cos there won't be enough on. Mm. It's cold air isn't it ? Oh really. Yeah. Oh brown one and a gold one. Well actually when it's in the sun one looks a silvery gold. Oh yes. One transparent . Here, have a sherry dear. I will. . God I need a time and motion expert in this cupboard. Well it's multi purpose cupboard dear. put that . Meet anyone when you were out? . Not really, no . I'll put that over there,. I a, I only saw half a dozen people in the park, past a party of riders, lady who approved of my litter picking. I funny staring back at the car park, the car park, and the O K? Yes. Mm, where's the ? I saw park,full of traffic down the high street. in front of me and throw out carton into the road, winds his window up again. Then as he was passing a bit nearer and I came to him, he stopped again in the queue, I walked in and and I said, I knocked on his window and he put it down and I said, that wasn't a very nice thing to do. He said to me I'm not a very nice person. So I said well I hope you're working on it and I walked on a couple, two or three and picked up this bloody carton out of the road and I was right next to Linda's car Oh really? Mm. Did she see what you was doing? I don't know, but she, I, she waved to me and I waved to her and I picked it up and I said do you want this? at the fellow, or at No, there's these girls with a fellow with several cars that way though and I just put it in the bin that was there. Yeah But, I did think he was cheeky, I mean it was so blatant. Yes. And people walking on the pavement all it totally and I thought what a cheek. Ha Well done dear, you've done your bit for humanity today. Well I That's that,You can't freeze that one, I'll have to make the sandwiches with these because if I freeze the bread Yes. I then can't freeze it for sandwiches. It's not capable of being frozen again you mean or what? Yes, you mustn't re-freeze things, so I try to make the sandwiches You have a sandwich making sesh do you? and then put them in, it's so much to ease my mind in the morning, is all I've got to do is take them out and they're pretty, they're fresh, they'll defrost by lunchtime and Yep. they're as fresh as they can be. Yep. Pardon me. The only thing is I can't really put much salad in them there, because salad doesn't freeze awfully well Yes, goes rather soggy doesn't it? but, Susannah doesn't particularly care for erm You just hoik a packet out of the freezer every day and put it in the fridge for her do you? Yes, erm, that's right, or put them on the Coke thing, and the drink and the and er pieces of fruit. Mm. Well I can't always find the biscuit, I always buy enough. Some glorious first of June my goodness, isn't it? I was wearing my coat and my gloves at the park. I also take my gloves dog.. Was it a cigarette carton the fellow chucked? No it was a juice carton with a straw in it. Oh yes, yes oh, all this instant disposal stuff really is a pain. Peop peop people get don't they? In their car before they get home. No course they don't. Yes. Yes, that's one of the blessing of people not parking so much down the road now, they don't empty out their ashtrays and their junk from time to time. Kids walking up and down still drop their sweet packets though. I know, look at that. Terrible getting old. Blame it on puberty. All all it's doing is staying on the outside dear. No it's not, look, if you look where the yellow is, it's not, just to the rim of the water is it? No, but it could be simply for being shaken around. Well I mean there's a yellow streak all the same, all the way up there look. It's . Is it coming up, perhaps it's pouring out of the top dear. It's all yellow at the top. Anyway I think I can throw it away cos I've proved it to myself that it work, the three of them. Well you eat that piece dear. As it's gloriously golden. usually look forward to half term to my feet to recover because the children walk all over me. Yes. And they're nasty little, little feet chair . Would you like me to buy you a foot bath? No. Massages your feet , with water, warm water jets each night when you come in. No thank you. Why not? It would do them ever so much good. I'm thinking of getting an ozone Come on. generator or I know we're going to be an ozone clean the air are we? An ozone clean the air. An ozone are we? A nuclear guaranteed zone. Oh an ioniser, is that what you mean? An ioniser that's what I mean dear, yeah. Where are you going to put it? In the office dear, where it needn't concern, your hair looks very nice. Why should it not concern me? Well, give, you did sound a little scathing to there of my darling. I don't you mean one in every room to benefit? I want, I need to be fresh in the office I don't want to be fresh in front of the television, I want to go to sleep. Perhaps one can have a personal ioniser that clips on the lapel or the belt. I think. Yes, yes, I would be quite glad when this lot's over. Yes, and I shall be quite bad. Are you being inhibited or exhibitionist or what? Being inhibited, oh I haven't noticed it. well I'll switch off if I'm being something rather good, so don't I feel a bit sorry for those goldfish. Well, I reckon that plastic bag squashed them all, get away blossom. Well they're getting to the right temperature he said . I don't think they're allowed to move, haven't got any room to move round in there have they? Oh yes they have. Have they? Ah yes,you're absolutely right, they're your little toys, look at that tail. I wouldn't trust her an inch. No quite right. Not an inch. Quite right, except soon as your back's turned dear Guess how much they cost? A shilling each. You're living in the past. Yeah I know, fifty pence each. Yes. No seventy five. Seventy five oh that's a rip off dear. I thought so too,it said fifty on the tank Oh. and I said to him, I thought they er were fifty pence and he said I've picked you out the biggest and the best. Cheeky devil. Now what could I say? Cheeky devil, yes. He said, if they, anything goes wrong, come back. Those are the benefits of doing shopping in Chislehurst High Street are they? They've got a new tank and new . Have they? Oh, it's all opened up . It's a much cleaner, brighter place now isn't it? You wouldn't recognize it. Yes, certainly was a pretty sordid effort before. A minor bird in there and a chinchilla, who looks so miserable. What is that? A little furry beast. Yes, I thought a chinchilla was a kind of rabbit, but it isn't, it's got a tail. Oh. Not like, not as good as a squirrel's tail. Can you, can you breed your own fur coat? Oh, get . But, but, in this cage and it had a little wooden box Mm. to go in Mm. with a hole in the top and that, and when I went in it was in its box, facing the back of the box and its tail sticking out. Mm. When I came back, cos I went in on the way to the hairdresser's, to find out about it, and I thought I'd buy him on the way back, when I went back it was still sitting in the same place with its tail hanging out of the back. Look at this cat, ah look at pussy Emma. That's a saucy pose isn't it? She wants her tummy tickled. She wants her tummy tickled . You're asking for trouble Digger. Get your nose . , I was going to get you trimmed this week, but it hasn't been any warm weather has it, you wouldn't want your coat off, no. Want your tummy tickled? I thought you might be going going . No. A good thing I hope not. It's a good thing I'm not going to go because you might end up oh look at that? Oh that looks good, yes. Both playing croquet, and fighting each other I just get . Well I said to David, is there, I understand this is a game where people get very seedy with each other and he said no not at all not at all . David is such a mild mannered fellow that er he wouldn't know how to. He said and he said it's a game of great tactics and erm Can't think why,temptation to be intelligent to be tactician don't you? Oh, I do . Everybody says how nice you are, how lucky I am. What, what has niceness got to do with confidence for goodness sake. Well if you're a nice person, then you will , like I help Susannah.. No, you can't keep all these food dishes can you? So what's been Anthony's problem? Apparently before some time in December, he was diagnosed as having an ulcer and almost immediately afterwards had a slight stroke. Oh dear. And he's only relatively recently gone back to work. And he's been under somebody or other at Charing Cross Hospital I, who has a rather different approach to the whole thing, many other people's involve rest and doing nothing and so on and so forth. Has it left him with any impairments? say. Say at all, I didn't ask. Erm, but it's obviously been a very trying time for them. I'm sure, yes. And one daughter is taking A levels and the other is on her way, I'm not sure if she's actually taking O er GCSEs or Yes Mark and Deborah are two years behind . Two years behind is she? Yep, and the older one fancies medicine, but erm, might know, her her projections are great, but any, inadequate for that, so erm, bio-chemistry is a possibility, but erm,with just got to wait and see. Yeah. Where would she hope to go? Hasn't mentioned at all. Yes Geraldine certainly implied that it had been a jolly hard time. I'm sure it would be,if the kids doing exams. Yes. in the house. Mm. She's in April, she and Anthony had been to Florence for four days. For, to a conference to do with his job. Oh. His bosses thought it was time he got back into Yes, to Florence eh. Wonderful place for a conference. But she said they spent an enormous amount of money. Oh dear, They probably won't be going away this summer. And also, their, their children wanted to hang around and get their results and . As long as Anthony has a break or something,Gerald Geraldine is not working? No. No she did say that she a, had a, been supply teaching a year or two ago. Did it dried up? Yeah, and she tried it, the personal experience was wonderful. She's . the girls' bedrooms which was more like a boxroom than a bedroom before Aha. They're still in the same place are they? Aha. St John's, mm, mm. They're about to have their kitchen done. Oh. Which has never been, kitchen worth calling a kitchen . and Anthony's about to try and work from home. Oh really, what leaving his firm? Mm. My goodness. Change his job and work as a consultant for a German firm. Which will involve him travelling to Germany and . Day to day he'll work from home. How intriguing Did he get his ulcer sorted out? The implication was he had,na , that was O K. You could imagine been worry can't you? Yes he always was, perfectionist . Yes he his ways though. That hanky ironing episode. When you were all in the flat together. Mm. The four of us were going out somewhere Anthony said, hang on, hang on, I'm not ready yet, got out your ironing board and your iron and ironed himself a hanky. No, I don't remember that. Incredible. All three of us. I really don't remember that. Funny the things you remember and I don't probably true the other way round too if I care to mention things . I'm glad you said perhaps. I didn't want to be romantic . Ah. Ah. How thoughtful. Well that wasn't bad. Yes, that's .. wants to,in two weeks. Ah And I forgot to wash the cats so, I had to. You don't look too good Digger, let it mature a little. She's a bit huffy, but you'll prefer one job . , oh, it did make you sneeze a lot didn't it Digger? So she . You old cast off. Oh charming, I see, since when did you last chucked one of yours out of the beasties. For some funny reason my . . Well you're leaning on the table now, I can't think what oh. I'll not dust with my elbows. Do you have a secret deal with Oxfam? No. I can do with one of those three clematis would . They really are pathetic aren't they? No, I envisaged when I bought those superb places that they would cover the fence. Oh, look at . Mm. It's very graceful about one of those oscillating sprinklers, you know. Mm. Great fanning waves to and fro. Going on the small lawn is he, when they re-turfed? Yes, I think that's fair enough. I mean, I greenhouse. Plant in the glass room, put them all out underneath the sprinklers. Well done. And they . Splendid. Saves the water going to waste. Well the cats, the hose and the cat . So I water easily for the Sure , sure. Would you like a plate? No there's nothing there for you dear. No . Not a lot of flavour I should bread. . They're chili grapes. Chili and grapes, they're cool enough. The lavatera has to be put in a sunny spot, I think it'll have to go Sorry not over there. Next to that bush,. There's already a hyperathan there, which Willy over chopped, it is a beautiful plant. There's no room for it. . They grow six feet tall. Well, it needs a darn big space then, doesn't it? I wouldn't be able to see it in the . Well I would recommend Mm. that you put it behind a save bush, chop that azalea bush, stick it back there, that'll keep the broom coming in. You could put it along side that erm, if you put it stuck like that, it'll need staking, put it on the wall on the fence. It doesn't need staking surely. I don't think so. Hasn't got a stake in there has it? Yeah at the bottom. Oh in the pot I mean, now. It's not very big yet. Weren't taken? Right, I'm quite confident. Shame those coming up, some of them purple. Why? I suppose they'll be alright when the iris disappear. Actually it's red and pink ones that's rather nice. Very pleased at those original gerania Not too sure. Used to come up purple as well as pink. This is a lovely colour of iris just here isn't it? Mm. Why not have the lavatera in there, instead of the tree? No, no, no, no, no, no, too untidy. Mm Have you enjoyed the wallflowers this year? Yes. Mm. I think I'll be happier to get back to the traditional gold and yellows and browns on wallflowers. Yeah. They'll certainly be colourful. Mm. Thank you I enjoyed my supper, my lunch dear. Are you going to do a proper Dennis? Come on. Does she actually sit up for Dennis? You'll , you'll have to say sit. Sit. Emma, sit. Now come on, never Sit mind the food. sit, good girl. Sit. Right, good dog. Can you, can you do it . Oh really. all day Oh, I see. She's had that's enough, she doesn't need . One last one, there you are dear, that's a good dog. Dennis makes her sit and then it in, snapping at your fingers. You're very good at it aren't you stinky? Quarter to two is it?coming at two or are you ? He said two, he'll call for me. I've got to get him some plants from that tub haven't I? What's that you've put in there so far? Lobelia. Mm mm. I see how you can . Mm mm. Yes. I think they've still got a fair whack of root bedding plants in, particularly of good value. Try try the other place at the bottom of erm Mottingham lane. try that see if it's open. If a, if it's not successful there O K Oh yes, do you know, I was trying to remember what it was you wanted from that place over in Homesdale, you, you know where I mean don't you? I don't think so, I don't know if I'll find it. Well it's where, next to the place I bought the tiles from. Oh is it? Well, yes, you know the tile shop don't you? I'm going to leave it like that for a couple of hours. Ah mm. It allows the water temperatures to equalize. On Monday I put this bowl into the washing up bowl, cos it stood in the car and take this, like that, to school. Yes, it'll be more stable in that in the car won't it? Right, in the washing up bowl you see . Washing up bowl is very shallow don't pretend to it's deep No, I shan't , no water in the washing up bowl, I'll just sit that into this bowl Oh I see. so that if it slops I see. And then when I get to school, I do, I have to pour all the water into the tank, and leave it for a couple of hours and at break time put the fish into the into the mix water Yes. so that they get them And I'll get the children to collect some rocks up and wash them. Why? Oh right. Why are you doing this? What's the object? Cos we're doing a project on water Oh. and, the children have done that tie dying, and after open day, when most of their dollies will be finished soon Yes. I thought they could stick fish and weed on to their bits of tie dying, use the tie dying as a Oh yes. I'm surprised,. I'll have a small cafe with you. Is he there? Yep. Seen my glasses ? Thank you. How would you like your coffee love? thank you. On whose behalf should I arrears? Interest. Oh, really? I don't need it anyhow. Actually an interesting article is it? Yes actually an interesting article. Mm Go and put a jumper on I think. Jo who does my hair is off too, on Thursday, to the Caribbeans to be married. Golly, very exotic. They are, getting lots and lots of people to do it Mm. and it's going to be a record, simply a record of erm, English as it's spoken in nineteen ninety one, I've got a little blurb on it which I'll show you. Yeah. Having put a jumper on I don't know where to clip the blinking microphone now. It's an interesting idea, isn't it? Oh yes . Yes and they they provided me with boxes of tapes and batteries and eh Walkman and so on and so forth and eh, I'm trying to be conscientious. Well I'm sure, I don't know whether it's sort of easy to wear when you're playing croquet or I suppose Ah well, if, if it isn't I switch it off. Yes. Dispose of it, it's eh, somebody's having a fete or something. Oh it's a funny old day today isn't it? Mm, it's not cold is it? I Well I thought it was when I went out and exercised the dog before lunch, I went up to Jubilee Park and eh, I had a very brisk walk indeed and I was absolutely lathered by the time I got back to the car, after half an hour. Yeah. It's always perceptive on days like this, because it's overcast and eh Yes. you tend to thinking not very warm. Yes . Absolutely, absolutely. Your son had better things to do had he? He's gone into Bromley with my eldest. Aha. Jeremy does play croquet, but very infrequently. Yes. . Just broken away from his girlfriend. Oh has he, ah. He seemed happy enough when I called. Well it was his doing so I suppose I see. Probably not be unhappy with it, she is. Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha yes , yes indeed, ha, ha, ha. Smart brake lights aren't they car I was just thinking what an intriguing colour they were. Yeah. Fuchsia, would you call it? Yes, wonder why you'd want two double exhaust do you, I mean it's not a very big engine surely on those, Volkswagen is there? Yeah, yeah , it's all a bit of pizzazz I suppose. Mm probably only one of them is actually effective. Yes. Or or probably neither of them are connected. Still a noisy little engine though, isn't it, my goodness. Well they always were, weren't they? But the Yes, yes. I mean I, my sister used to have one and she said you could take it on the motorway and it'll just keep up a, a very good speed still with a noisy engines and then it just kept going and going and going. Yes , yes. They're like a Morris Minor aren't they? I mean that's an incredible engine. Oh yes, yes . Did you see that the British High Commissioner of Sri Lanka has been chucked out of Sri Lanka? No. Er, he, there was a pic there was a picture of him on the report in the paper and he was sitting in his convertible Morris Minor. Oh . And they are, they are very popular vehicles in Sri Lanka, and somebody's about to set up a factory there to make the bulk of the parts Yes. That's right , yes I think I Rather oddly there are two or possibly even three Morris Minor centres who parts, that's in Bath, they're, they've seemed to have concentrated in Bath rather, rather oddly. And I get erm, one of my customers in Trinidad runs a Morris Minor still. Really? And eh, he occasionally asks me to get bits and pieces Well they do so, I mean, I know, I know the body shape is expensive to make because of the number of different panels Yes. by comparison with modern cars. Surely. They just pick same extent the Mini doesn't it? Yes, yes. That's why it is expensive compared to eh, other cars, but,they, they seemed to go on for ever those cars, I mean they're quite incredible aren't they? Yes, they, they They've certainly the engine of it. Tough, tough little beasts aren't they? Yeah, yeah. And of course they've actually made eh, the bodies with er metal not tissue paper in those days didn't they? Yes. But they don't seem to have some of these sort of inherent problems that other cars have had since, with eh, sections of the body that tend to rust. Really, yes, yes. Whereas I think cars now, because they give these guarantees on rust, they've certainly given it a lot of thought, but, I mean there was certainly models that were riddled with problems weren't there? Yes there were. Only the Mini when it first came out was a shocker wasn't it? Mm, yes. Absolute shocker. Today I was listening to the talk on the radio coming home, it last night, and the, there was a, representative from one of the largest eh, firms that transport new cars in this country Yes. together with a representative of British Rail, and he was saying that, I, forget how many car transporters they've got that erm, they built, bought specially to go on British Rail, he said, but they said he just had to give them up for many reasons and one of them was the problems that they have with new cars when they take them on British Rail and the brake dust from the trains apparently causes immediate rust. Oh. So that you can put a brand new car on at eh, A and by the time it gets to the other end it's literally got rust problems. How curious. It seemed to me incredible. Yes, absolutely amazing. Apart from the vandalism problems they've had, where whole trainload of cars have been stripped of the radios. Oh dear. Cos when they pulled into a slow section on the railway, the vandals have got on and just gone through the whole lot and taken the radios out. Yes, yes, British Rail have got big problems in that way, haven't they? Oh yes. And rail railways really ought to be far better developed than they are in this country, eh. Well it seems the obvious means of transport. Absolutely, absolutely, but I mean, I I ship goods out of this country into the continent and further afield, erm, rail is just not an option that I can consider. No. It's er it's not feasible. That's what the representative said from the erm, the car transporter company, was that they they just couldn't any longer use British Rail because it, he said although British Rail are willing to compensate, it's delay of deliveries. It's not the point is it? They can't deliver to their customers on time. Mm. Surely, surely, yes, and thirty, forty, fifty years ago, rail was an acknowledged method of shipping things into from Europe. Yes. And then there were people who specialized in it, I don't suppose from a moment there are now. Yes. No. They just Eh,, I mean there's a idea the money that's been spent on the railways instead of on motorways we'd be a lot better off, and I think and Partners subscribed to that because I think that erm, had more money being spent on the railways that we would have been much better off, oh I'd much rather go on a train journey than on a motor bridge journey. Yes. Yes. Absolutely. Sitting comfortably get up and walk about, go and have your cup of tea or coffee. Surely, surely, it makes much more sense, you can read a book and There's still something about railways even though they're not steaming. Yes , yes I agree. All clear on the left Busy road isn't it this? Far too busy, yes. Perhaps I should have, you can pulled into this refuge in the middle there . Yes, yes, it's, otherwise it's very neat here, you know in this, these little spaces are really incredibly small. Yes, yes, just stop and get some petrol. Aha. In the States they have particularly small apertures to the petrol tanks for unleaded, do they here? Mm, Yes , yes, the different size. Are right, yes. I don't know, a car like this you could pick either of them. Sure. , cheaper, where the one gets quite . No, no, quite performance is not what counts is it? No. That shows you how long our tank is, it's the other side. Don't you think it would reach? Well it probably would, but I got to anyway. Yes What's that? That's an unleaded only pump I think. Oh it's premium, it's premium unleaded. Yes. Mind you they talk about premium don't they? You save a few more coppers don't you? Yes, you do. Forty five point four, I'll, I'll sort this out in a minute, I don't normally have this trouble at the station. Ah, I can't see what It's the same price as the other one, so, presumably it's the same stuff. Ah well. Yes, yep,. It's the B S seventy seven premium, it's very small letters, I don't think it's anything different. And erm, they've got some new system of a little plastic card, which they stick into the machine each time. so they give you a credit. It, well it notches up points for Argos. Well I bet you . Argos . Oh are they? Yes. Oh I see. Yeah. Yes. When you've saved up a card, I don't know how many there are in it you got a pound worth of gifts at It it's all rather ironic when you think that Argos grew out of Green Shield. Yes, yes, that's right. It's, it's the same system eventually isn't it? It is yes. With Green Shield Stamps it's amazing how quickly they went out just like that, didn't they? Yes, I believe what did it was Tesco's them out. Ah. Tesco were the grocery chain and the Green Shield Stamps and it was the kiss of death for Green Shield when they did that. Did they pull out? They staggered on for a year or two after that, but Tesco's had a big, big change of policy they were no longer high and kick them out cheap, they decided to promote a quality in which stamps did not go for and erm You can get Green Shield Stamps again in some garages can't you? I don't know. I'm sure, I thought the one down the bottom did Green Shield, or is that something else they do? I, I don't, that's ahead of us you mean? No, just here. There it is. Yeah, oh really,. You'll have that recorded on your er Yes, yes. Any noise. I, I pity the poor typist has to transcribe this as and when if it happens, ha, ha she's going to get some very strange noises, including me having a pee and flushing the loo before lunch, what have you, I forgot to switch it off. So you obviously can't edit it can you, or you shouldn't it'll be pointless Well I , I can, I mean if, if somebody erm, objects to the fact that being recorded and let's say erm private business meeting or something in that sense Oh, that, that switches off completely? That's right. Yes. That's right. Presumably. But if somebody, and they say to you, try, try not to tell people in advance because it inhibits them, I, I'm not at all certain about that, but still, erm Some people might object to it. But if people object when you tell them afterwards, you're at liberty to erase and, so Yes on and so forth, so, you tend to tell them first? Well, not necessarily, sometimes I don't tell them at all or they comment on it and I explain, it's a, but it's only been yesterday and today you see really. Yeah. They, they asked that it be done on a Friday and a Saturday and that they appeared on Thursday with it, erm, I'm getting on with it. It was quite entertaining yesterday, today's becoming a bit of a bore because the tapes only last forty five minutes, so you've got to Course, yes . change, change over and change the tapes and all that sort of thing and erm they give you packets of batteries and your supposed to change the batteries every two to three tapes, every four sides in other words. So you're fiddling around with it and that. Yes, yes. It's a proper Sony Walkman. Yes. It's certainly good quality recording. Mm. I've just got it hooked on the mouth here you see. Oh it is, yes . Make the exercise worthwhile. Mm. Cos language does change doesn't it? I mean Very much so, yes. words certainly do go out, you forget, when you go to use a word that hasn't been in use sometime and the younger person says to you what does that mean? Yes indeed. Words , with the old coinage have completely gon well not completely gone, but they don't have the same meaning do they ? I can remember several years ago bringing in a seventeen year old baby sitter to sit with Susannah, and I heard thirty bob. Yes. And she said, well what's is it? She had not a clue. No. Not a clue. Well I suppose like that it's not worth tuppence really. Yes. But they will say two pence these days won't they? Not tuppence. Yeah, not tuppence . No. And, and look at you as if you're an old fogey if you say tuppence I expect. And do you remember as a child, people used to talk of four and twenty and five and twenty past? Yes. That's totally disappeared hasn't it? Yes, I, I mean, they talk about twenty past the hour, twenty to four. Yes, but instead of twenty five past, they've said five and twenty past They did quite often. yes. And eh, curious twist that. Yes, I, I think really that's why it's a lot easier to read the time on an analogue display than it is on a digital display. You virtually have to read that and register it. That's right and the point really is with time, you're not interested that it's two twenty four. No. You, are, are, am I early , but am I on time, am I late , yes have I to, how long is it till I'm due, whatever. , you glance at your watch and discover that it's not half past isn't it? That, that's right, you've still got time or you'd better get a move on, it's that sort of reaction that your brain makes isn't it? You're not really worried about the time to the last minute, I mean No. twenty five past is nearer. That's right, that's right, I, I tend to keep my watch to the minute if I possibly can, but that's bad habit or really habit from the days when I was catching trains every day, and I'd never caught a train with any time to spare, erm Well with watch they don't . They don't very much anyway do they? Or yours do? Mine's a good old fashioned proper mechanical wind up job yes. Wind up, yes . My father gave it to me for my seventeenth birthday. Oh really and you still wear it daily? I do indeed, yes, yes, it's the only watch I own, and it's the only watch I've ever had, no, no, that's true, er not true I should say I've got a half hunter. Yes. Which eh, if I put this in for cleaning, or . That's unusual isn't it, because I always think, I mean I, this is really only about the second watch I've ever had good one. First good watch I had was for my twenty first, I've still got, it still goes Yes quite well. yes. Well my father was a commercial traveller in jewellery, silver ware Oh was he? watches , and this is actually one of his samples. Yeah. And this is a Sotino which is a quality brand in those days, I, I, don't know if it still is, I assume it is, erm, which was not advertised at all, and although the Rolex's and so on in this world have been heavily advertised as they came on the market, Sotino's never really was, so my father had a struggle I suspect selling. Yeah. Where do you take it when it needs erm, there aren't that many places are there? No there aren't , I had it done last year at erm, oh what's it called,, Sidcup. Oh I know. Do you know the ? Yes, little tiny place Beyond the station yes yes tiny little place, and it was, it wasn't totally satisfactory initially in that they erm, they left it with some sort of erm cock up, I couldn't wind it up, there was something wrong with the crown click, or something of the sort, when I got it back, so I had to take it back again, but otherwise they seemed to be people who are well aware of watches in the best sense and eh, he said this is a an excellent movement and eh far better than the ones I normally see. Mm. Erm, but, I mean it doesn't look very special does it? But absolutely everything of course other than the movement changed since I was seventeen. Yes. New case, new dial, new hands, new everything. Really? And, and I suspect that'll be jolly difficult to get that sort of thing done these days. I think a new face would be very expensive . Mm, mm. Oh yes, but I, I think as I recall I got it without too, without too much trouble. But I mean, going back to the fact it's my one and only watch, I should think Susannah has had eight or ten watches . I, I think people must do because the number of them that are sold . She, she, looks upon them as a thoroughly disposable commodity. Yes, yeah. Five or ten pounds is the price that has to be paid for them and they last six months and they move on to the next, extraordinary approach. They use Swatch watches don't you. Yes, yes, she's, she's had, she's had one of those and I haven't seen that for a long time. She's got some stupid thing at the moment with, with a flip top of Thomas the Tank Engine. When Stephanie's mother died we found in the bungalow a watch, it must of been given I would of thought to her father probably for his twenty first and I took it to a jewellers in Elton, well that's all he does is watches actually apart from jewellery . Yes , yes. And eh, he seemed very knowledgeable, I mean we got a job to find him, he hasn't actually got a shop, he's just got a premises. Oh yeah. It's the place, that if you take your watch into the average shop they take it to him I think. I see, yes, yes, oh next time I need one I shall ask you then. Yes, he was very knowledgeable, very helpful. Mm, Mm. Eh Yes in somewhere like that it's not a place you leave your Oh watch in confidence is it? gosh, no, I mean all they do now these days is sell them, they don't repair them. That's right, that's right, yes that's a slight, mistake to call them jewellers, cos they're not really, that at all are they? Yes, yes, I know even, even Ratner himself called them tat or Yeah. crap or something didn't he? He did that to get publicity, cos in fact they found that it wasn't eh, rubbish he was selling in there. Well it, it, at least it's gold, I mean, I, I, I was in the jewellery trade when I first left school, between school and national service I worked at a manufacturing jewellers in Birmingham and I've never really gone along with the idea that nine carat is actually gold. If something is only three eights Yes. gold, how can you call it gold? Yes. The essence of is copper alloy, it's got more than fifty percent copper in it. Yes. That's the way I always thought, and if it's only got thirty seven and a half percent of gold in it, how on earth can you call it gold? So nine carat is only It's nine twenty fourths. Pure gold is twenty four carat. Ah, yes of course it is. So you get nine carat which is thirty seven and a half, eighteen carat which is seventy five percent and twenty two which is, ha, ha, ha, whatever it is. Yeah. A little over ninety per cent I suppose, and erm, I'm not sure if you got fourteen or fifteen carat, so fourteen I think is used with the continental standard and the lowest continental standard now are fifteen used to be our inbetween standard, very rarely used. But nine and eighteen are the most common in this country? Yes, they are, yes, definitely. The trouble is the more you get, the more, is the softer is the jewellery. That's, that's true, eh, I mean the alloy in the other ones have to be quite crafty when you get up to twenty two carat for example and eh, very eh, eh, large chunk of gold in it, and it can indeed be very soft, but then you see that's an eighteen carat ring that I've had for, worn, all the time for twenty four years Yes. and it really was pretty much like that when I had it, so eh, it's probably a bit more rounded than it was. Yes, yes. So they, they do last. Yeah. Oh, yes, because rings come in to quite a bit of wear don't they? Yes, oh yes, yes, yes, no with doubt. I had one repaired for Susannah, it had been left to her by an aunt and she had managed to smash it against a post or something and broke the shank and knocked out one of the erm, stones, so on and so forth, and eh, together with some repairs on a charm bracelet I had to pay thirty seven pounds for the whole jolly lot. Did you really, yes, yes. But it's, I think when you look at the cost of labour these days, it's not surprising any sort of repairs are expensive. It's very true. They've got to pay for the premises Yes and eh yes, absolutely. It's a fairly, well it is a skilled trade isn't it? And I took it to the people up on Royal Parade, who are constantly having burglaries, no, that's that's true, they have had several quite chunky burglaries Mm. and erm, eh, they have must be absolutely horrific, you have to pay for all that sort of thing don't you? Yes of course you do, yes. It doesn't work on Saturdays eh? It doesn't work at all at the moment. Oh really. I don't think. I see, yes, it's not the most stimulating job in the world is it? No. Stretch your money in small amounts like that. prepared to do it, there's quite a few cars . Yes. I suspect that more people use it cos you don't have to pay. It's not paying it's the hold up isn't it? That's right, that's right, the irritated. Yes. Gets on with it. Yes that's quite something isn't it, did you see that in the gate of the college, a security man? Yes, yes. There's something I must do over here is go Govidge Gallery. I have never set foot in it. No I haven't, no. And it, it's supposed to have some splendid pictures, a very fine collection indeed. It is, yes, yes . We we played poker games in Dulwich College last year. Oh yes. Erm, well it was a match actually eh, that the, Bromley organised, she said she was keen on . Are we in, Bromley still here? No this is Dulwich. Dulwich which is Suffolk or Yes, it must be. Suffolk own a big place Bell, Bell something or other in the next road here don't they? Do they? A great big old country house. Oh. And it's, it's a big garden . No, we, we, played in Bromley itself. Did you? Yes Yes I think the only reason they all, they, well it was her team against us, eh they Oh I see. I think the only people which sides with masters from Dulwich College I see, yes. cos they play croquet there. They have their own. They have their own pitch. Pitch, is pitch the right word? Er lawn. Lawn, right. Needless to say that neither of them Good. But she's very nice I think she goes through till about June. Oh yes, it's not Doreen still is it? The, the lady. No, no, I can't remember her name,rath rather an attractive lady I thought, very pleasant. Yes I'm certain this is the road that Carlos used to live in. It's a very nice road, I mean some very nice houses. Very pleasant road, yes . Yes. I think it's club just here somewhere. Steven . Which club, sorry? The croquet club. Oh right I don't know whether there'll be any playing there. People might get down later, really. Yes. Do you tend to book the lawn or eh No, never. just turn up, whatever, see what happens? Well he needs to know when there's a match on, otherwise you wouldn't get a game. Quite. Just hope there's not one on today, but I'm pretty sure there isn't. Mm, mm This is Dulwich Sports Club. I see It's not that far. No, no. It's about twenty minutes. Surely, yes. Very convenient for me in the evenings, if I want to stop off, have a Very pleasant way to unwind , I would think. Oh it is, yes. How long does a game take, as a general rule David? Ah, maybe it's about three hours. Gosh,, oh, it's a kind of golf then isn't it? Er, yes, very much so, I think that, to some extent, depending on the standard of the players. Yes. And how well one can play. Yes, fair enough. Friend of mine, I had a beer with in the week, showed me his new car, and he said the big irritation is it doesn't centrally lock , having been used to it. Yeah. He eh,. Don't have . No that's erm,. Oh yes. used to make bowls off, because they got too expensive. Oh yes, aha. , those dents . Yes,. The ideal weight for is about three pounds. Oh I see, yes, yes and what's the facing on it? Well I've had to have it faced with nine on, because in the end, it, even with it gets erm, damaged. Aha, yes. We've got two lawns, that, that, this one's a bit smaller, but it's about . That's about the right size. Yes, yes, eh, I just see, come with me. Thank you. I'll get it right. Hello, hello. Hello, how are you? Hello, Chris has come down to see what croquet is all about. Oh really, hello, hello. Hello. Somebody who pretends to like it. Yes, so I've gathered yes, yes.. Playing at it, playing at it,we're struggling. Is there erm, a club manager in there ? No. buildings David. wonderful. How splendid. Two, two colours ball, that's primary coloured. Right. colours, that means you can double bank on the lawn, you can have two games going on at once. Oh I see, that's crafty, yes, yes I'll take the best one. What's the significance of the black tip? Just to put the clips on them. Oh I see, yes, yeah. Members leave their mallets here as often as not do they? Yes, they do. I don't tend to. because I might want to play somewhere else anyway get caught, I just tend to leave it in the car. Absolutely, yes. Oh thank you. Yes. Oh yes, there's a good weight in that head isn't there? Yeah. Sorry what say about three pounds? Three pounds is goes all weekend. Right. What I'll do to pick it up play a game, probably play a game later . Get used to those shots, right. Oh. Problem is when you're demonstrating is you tend to do things wrong I mean, you should be able to have an awful lot of gap. They don't do they, no. about an eighth in size. Yes, this standard is alright, but the championship would be about a sixteen. Though what you should do is, is, just walk up to the ball, that line through there. Oh right. It enables you to line that up. It's, it's a sight. Yes, yes. It's fairly important that as, when you walk up to the ball you're body is in line with, where you want to be. Right, right. And then, as you walk up, you really should sort of almost end in the ideal place and then having lined up the shot, put it through like that. Right and it's anticipated that you will strike the erm, the hoop in the process. Yes, yes, there's no harm in that, I mean it would be nice to go through cleanly, but Right , yes. How you hold the mallet is really up to you, eh there are many different ways, you can hold it like that, you can hold it down there, up there Oh. like that, just a, however you feel comfortable. It's, it's a question of control and movement. You'll find it , the better I don't rank much but, tend, tend, to, to, just do that and it'll go through. Yes, yes. You tend to let the mallet do the work rather than Yes. Yes, yes. quite the height. Right. same sort of height as me, and surely . Anyway just, just try that. Yes. . Obviously taking a bit harder. Right, yes. Can you see, that ball weighs about a pound, so gotta be able to Yeah, right, right. You take a bit of force. Yes, yes, quite. Yes, yes, I, yes I take your point. . If you're going to approach the that's the striker's move. I see. That . Right. So you'll try and just get the back a little, lean perhaps a little bit over towards there, like that, erm, Right. Then if you want blue to go the other side of the hoop and black to go here say, to the black won't go quite so far and the blue will . Right, so that you'll do a clean run through. Then you can that ball again. Right. Right. Then you've got a continuation shot. Having run you've got another continuation shot. Right. You then take , that's how you would progress through the hoop. Right, right, and you'll use an opponent's ball normally or any ball? When you're , until you're in danger of breaking down, I mean breaking down would be when you'd approach the hoop like that and you realize you can't run it. Yes. And you've got your opponent's ball the other side of the hoop, and the blue ball's over there somewhere, so you obviously wouldn't try and run the hoop, you'll just join back up with your partner's ball. To scupper the opposition. Well he, he To give him nothing to play with. Yes, yes. Erm, no, I mean, ideally you'll make the break if you have another ball . Right. Having made the two, comes through to there, you just having clear of the metal work, you put, this is a three foot , just not in it at the moment . Right. You'd want to put that yellow ball up on your next hoop and and get black somewhere near the blue, so then you can run that . I see, yes, yes. Something like that, it's not very good.. Yes, oh yes. . The trouble is with demonstrating is talking as well as. No, no, no problem. . I need to get that, just that little bit further this time Right, right. round the hoop, well that should come back up. , like to come back up onto the yard line. I see, now what about the red? Well. We ignore that as we're not actually playing. . Ideally that would be in the middle there somewhere as a pivot. Right. To, you've gone through the hoop, so , you've pushed so . Oh so it's not a straightforward round the outside, and up the middle ? Oh you have to got there in a minute. Yes, I see. We're putting red, we're putting blue on the . Oh I see, I see, yes. I'm just going up near red ourselves. Yes. That's a bit better. Yes, smashing. Right, so long as we then strike yellow, we can put it in. Move forward onto the hoop. Yes. Right. Doesn't matter if yellow goes off. Doesn't matter if the ball goes off in the , or when you're running a hoop, it just comes back up. Right. But at any other time it's the end of your turn. Right. Now we've got, this is a roll shot,, and we want the yellow to go beyond and the black to stop just in front of of the hoop. Right. Oh. Does that matter? . Should be able to get through there. Secret here is to miss that. Yes. If you miss that, it's got to go through. Yep. Well, if you put a, just hit it down a little bit, I got, probably won't get through, but if you hit it down a little bit to give it a bit of spin it might carry it through. very nearly didn't it? Mm. You see it? Yes, yes. If it had been spinning a bit more, it would of kept on. Yep, yep. Let's just assume that we've hit that, erm that would have been That would have that would have been the end of my turn. Oh would it? No, it's got, it's got to be cleanly through, right, fine. This side. Yes, yes. So what you see people doing is this, oh no, you shouldn't do that. Aha. I say to you, well I mean I say to you it's not through, that's accepted. Yes. If I say to you do you think that's through Yes, yes, very questionable, well it's, it's they say to me, yes that's through, it's O K, so that's it you don't have to Right, right. I think really if you're doing that, you should ask somebody else to come and Yes. But once you do that, soon as you put your mallet against the hoop, you push the hoop if it's loose forward anyway Yes, indeed you have, yes, yes. and eh, you've obviously dislodged the situation where somebody else should argue perhaps, Yes yes, yes, that's right yes. But if, if I say to you no I'm sorry Chris that's through Mm, mm. then you would have to accept it, cos it's really the person who's in play who's the referee. Yes right , I see. In a certain and friendly way. Yes , yes indeed, yes, fine. I mean, I, I would say, almost certain that's not true is it? I, I can just see a touch of the black. That's right, it's not through, I mean we both agree it's not through Mm quite, quite, yes. but you'll see players who, I mean, I mean, did it the other day when I was playing and she did this, oh yes, she I said you've moved it, I thoroughly accepted it wasn't through, you shouldn't do that. How can, how can you possibly put that ball back where it was ? Yes, absolutely , yes. Yeah. Yes. You can see it wasn't through, we both agreed it. Yes, yes. . Erm, push that yellow down,, erm, so let push it down there, ah, not hard enough, because the black should have gone nearer to the red. Yes. And then red down to blue all the way round. I see, yes. Very So long as you ke keep me on the straight and narrow at the same time really. Oh, oh, I'll tell you when you Yeah, thank you. Why do you actually need the white sticks to a mark up , out there when you take a free shot,. A nine.. I see, yeah, yeah. Mm . Yes, problem with, a problem really is they don't . Probably win anyway. Right. It's not prospective, but eh No, no. You don't, you don't break out so many times. I really haven't got a clue yes, yes. But I've got . Make a guess, I, I, got the message. Yes, right. Yes, that's the, that's the sort of problem I'm in for isn't it? Yes. You know probably make it a bit easier, but it's not. if you watch them people over there. Really, well what'll you call this croquet? Croquet Association. Association. Eh, I don't think . And they've got two matches going on together have they, they're, they've different colour balls? Oh I see. She can't even get the hang of it. arrangements. Ah. Oh well, let's have a game. Yes. Let's see how we get on. Yes please. . You got to have, got to to keep . Yes . Right. That has been caught . Taking the . Yeah, sorry, I was miles away, I'd lost anyway mentally, I mentally I lost. Did you? Yes, yes. Now I had the choice of going first,, so if I choose to go first then you can choose the colours.. Right. Occasionally you're forced into the other then you'll, then you'll, down aren't you? Of course you are, you'll just . Erm, as of one, I think first. Good. Erm. . During this first hit it's important to get the speed of the lawn, try and judge where you want the ball to end up to. Right , right,. . That's what I was trying to do, I don't mind if it goes off You, oh, right. cos I don't think,. Right, right, that was your object to get it as far away from the competition as possible really. Well, yeah,. Yes. Erm, try and get it stop near the . I see, I see what you mean, yes, yes, yes, yes, yep got you. Eh, you can start a game anywhere on this foot foot-line which is called the line,. One up there. Right. So you, you would normally start here. Yeah. Which . Yeah. Right, yep, O K. Rather over muscled, control it better yes. joining up at my thumb. Right. Erm quite some distance. Quite. Cos I wrote, you know that I , be very lucky to make it. Absolutely, yes. Especially at the beginning of the game. Yep. and eh,Ball goes . Yes. Yeah. Right. can't see, can't remember what the are balls behind or wha where they are. Yes, fine. So just be a touching ball. Yes it is. Move over to the blue. Yes. And you . Right. Yes. . Yes, you can see when the ball goes off, then you'll end up in the far corner. Right, right. Oh hold on, you've got, you've got a , you could have a shot at those , but I think at this stage of the game, it'll be best if you did have a shot at the yellow. Right. So it, would, would give me some aggression then would it? If you hit it, yes. yes, a very good point , ah. Not bad, I mean like that. You need to watch where that goes off, almost certainly Yeah. comes up a yard . Right. Your balls are well separated,I mean, the best I can do is take off the yellow, then I can make the . Put it on the one we're going to go through, or the one we've been through? Oh I see, normally . Right. I see right. . When you start is to do a thing, put that mallet down like that and then line up the which you need to go. I see. Yes. The other ball contact, must be a contact there. Yes. Just about enough the red from . Now that yellow, that blue ball must move Right. otherwise it's fault. Now where that centre of that V is where the black ball will go. Right. Got you. I, I don't tend to do it like that at all, I do it very nearly go, it's on the wrong side unfortunately.. Yes, yes, it, it did curl with the grass didn't it? Yes.. Right. What you didn't want to do in that case, no No .. Yes indeed. Right. You can . Yes, I see. So it doesn't matter if this ball goes off. Moving slightly the wrong way. Yes. Yes. , where, where you want the ball to come back. I understand, yes, yes. Right. And there's no benefit of having a row as you had before. Right. . The black would of come up about there. Yes. Which would've enabled me to rush,up there, but I didn't. Right. Right. O K Right now you come out or go up to red. I think I would just go up to red Yes. till you've got the feel of it, I . Right, fine. And the object is to hit red. Yes, quite, quite, it's, it's intriguing because it's so un so different to what I had in mind. Eh that was strange stuff If I can get it up Right. Would it have been better if it had not been a corner ball? The other side, aha. What goes one, two, three,three would be very nice. Fine. Oh, I've got a . Yes. Yep. In great danger when you do it with a cos the other ball . You're not aiming a . Yes. That's quite nice . Yeah, yeah. Yes. Yes you have. Oh I see, you can start in that hoop as well can you? No, I want to go down there. No, no, you still want to get back down there. Oh yeah. Even though you start from that corner, you can't go through that hoop. Oh no . The hoop on the opposite side first time, right, I see. That's not bad. No, that's pretty good. It doesn't matter where . No, I need blue at this stage, yellow you need now. Or indeed, one, even if, even if the yellow goes off . O K. . Smashing. Well,a bit better . Yes. The rest was . No, no,the red's not terribly helpful to you at the moment. Yes, yes, yes. Right. curled round . Yes. Erm That was erm You've got to move this ball O K. cos if you don't, I shall just your black to a take on Yes. and I've got a ball in my hoop. I see. That's the ball you've got to . Yes, fine. You can have a shot at red, you can do that, then I will do exactly what I did just now. Yes. Try and eh, I shall, probably get it even better, mind, most people would have a shot at those two I think Yes, O K. cos you're not giving very much away. Right. The other alternative is just to go off in that corner over there. It's very negative. Well, I yes, yes, I doesn't appeal to me at all. Yes, right. Move, move, move it out, right. Right I shall go for the blue, well actually,black, black is better cos blue went squiffy. Well . Yes that's true. Ah. Right, right yes. Eh, you can see where the was there. Yep. Probably somewhere round here, must be. Other side?. Got to be this side. Right. Fine. Not a very accurate . No. . One of the problems was really was . Yes. Yep. I've already so I've had it. Oh bad luck. Yes. Yes. So I've , well what I can do is go down there. Unfortunately that's right in the way. I've got a continuation shot, well what I shall do is just try and line them up for a rush down to , which is not bad. No. Fine. O K. O K. I think probably that red Yes, back down here again? Yes I have, yes. Erm, take . Right. But it's still best to remove the temptation here. Yeah, it would. Right, right. down here.. Right, O K. Right. So what, what most people do, is when they bring the mallets back, they tend to twist them. Aha. Yes. It's easy when you're pushing forward to keep it straight, it's when you bring it back it tends to twist. Surely. So try and concentrate on bringing it back and then, bring, I mean, you can bring it back fairly slowly. Alright, oh fine, yes. Very good, it's nice to see you hitting a ball like that. Yes, it felt good too. Yes. You could actually feel it working well. Yes, you brought the mallet back nice and slowly. And I was aiming between them to be honest. You obviously could of got . O K, I should, yes. Erm, you can always stop and ask. Yes. The trouble is you can make, there's a lot of people, it's very easy when you're concentrating on what you're going to do next, you forget the colour you're playing. Yes. Especially when you're making a break, so having made the . Right. So you know you're playing with red. I see, yes. Cos don't forget you're playing with two balls. Quite. Right. Eh, the danger is, if you don't, then, break down, if you leave my blue near the er black break down then I'm just going to get back in. Yes, yes. So, with, if a very difficult shot, what what I'll do is just . Let's just do a . To, to, not necessarily to hit the black, but to No not necessarily. Right, O K,. Just a little tap, that's all, you need . Yes , fine, O K. . That's lovely, yes. Good. Now, what you can do is try and cut it towards the middle of your line of aim . Yes. On that side. Fine. No, the red, yes. The black. The black, the black. Doesn't matter about the red. O K, fine. I'm aiming left to the black, yes? Yes, that's right, slightly off,to the left. Right, fine. Slightly off centre . Because of the danger of that ball jumping, you hit over the top like that, it'll jump. Yes. You, you take up the normal I don't tend to do this, but this is really the best way to do the shot. Yes. Take up your normal start and then just tap the back a little bit cos you're hitting that ball on the upward swing then and there's no danger that you're gonna jump over it. See if you'll try and get it to jump if you . Yes , yes, yep. Very, very easy to get the finger on the Fine. Erm, bumpy lawns, jump that over ball. Right. So step back and hit hit it on the up stroke. Yeah, and try and ground the mallet a little bit, cos then the black ball will go quite nicely down there. Oh right, fine. The difficulty of this shot is trying to, trying . You've got to get it to absolutely You, I would normally if you're my opponent, I would say, Chris would you like to come and watch this shot? I see, yes. So that you could, if you're sitting over there, and I take the shot it's not fair on you cos you don't know. Yes. So what I've got to do is to try and get down to that, but do I actually stop the mallet dead when it, as it hits the blue, because if, I don't wanna move the blue ball, but, if, if I was to play it like that it would be an obvious crush the ball into the mallet. Yes , yes. I mean, there again, you're seeing these players doing it, when you say , oh what , and you know they don't call somebody over to have a look at . Don't have to say Yes, yes. would you like to come and putt the shot Right, right. Erm, you can usually tell by the . No. It's only the one . Indeed, indeed, yes. That's why I told you the difference, you can't really Yes. Shall I put my clip on there? Yes you should. Right. Assume I'm not here. Yes. Right. Yep. Right. Presumably kicking the opponent's ball, it's, it's not acceptable. , it's not a fault, the only time it's a fault is when you're erm, I don't know the words really, when you're actually in play, so if you were to take a, if you were actually doing this Is that right? Yes. then, that's a fault. Oh, yes . It's actually taken. I understand, yes. Yes. , I'm still in play as it were, and I do that then it's . Right, right, I see. But it's not a fault if you, erm, sort of walk up to that ball and erm, do this, it's not a fault. No, I see. O K? Yes, good, O K. What you really want to do is to get together through to there don't you? Yes. Or there, so you can rush,across to there. Fine Oh twit, Put it back where it was and then . Yes, quite, quite, out, I think I thought it was going to shudder against the post and the hoop and Yes. Lovely, great . Right, yep. Putting the red, thank you, erm somewhere here. That's it, isn't it . Yes, right, right, yep. You've got to get Yes. cos the red goes straight line always, doesn't matter whether you hit it like that, that, that, that, that red ball will always It'll move away on all through the line of contact, right. O K? Yes. The one that does take reflection , but I think you've got to aim really for that wire. Yes, yes, good. That's the trouble having got this far I mean, you having stood there, I was deliberately aiming to, to strike that one. , got straight through it. Going straight through anyway, right, fine. I'm not capable of these weeny deflections anyway, so I don't know why the heck I'm bothering. Always try to be behind the other ball when you come through the hoop, because you're going that way, you see? Yes. Erm, but erm, what I really wanted to do was to cover about . Oh , oh sorry, it's it's the next one we're aiming at, the one we're aiming at isn't it yes. Yes, so to cut red,down, near that black ball is, lovely. Yes. There is a danger of red ball, you have a cut . Right, O K. Hit it on the right,. Yep. Right. To the right, yes. To to the right? Yellow ball . Of course I'm sorry, for some strange reason I thought we were going that way, I've got to go through the other way haven't I? It, it's always from the out outside in, yes? Well, except for on the way back. Ah. Right. You've got to really get to the right of that red, so can rush it down to the, left of that hoop with the red paint on it. Right, so Erm, what, the nice shot is to get back up to, there and get over to the yellow. I don't know whether you're going to do it. Right, so black down there, yellow over there, O K. . show you, then you Yes please. . I'm going to get the line in two balls where the black .. Yes. Then eh,on the ball's . Yes. Yes, yes. I've got to get up to that next . I put the yellow up onto hoop three,Gone the wrong side. . Yellow's nice, yeah, ah. I don't think I'll have a chance . Yes. Can you change your own ball during a go? Right. Right, right. I think you've got to move the yellow near one of my hoops. Right. Now that's your next hoop isn't it? Yes. I am, I am indeed, yes, yes, I I've got to deal with it some way, somehow. Move yellow onto red. Yes, yes, O K. What would've happened if the red ball had gone through? Nothing. Nothing. If it had been your hoop, it would've count. , yes, yes, you you would of . Yep, good. The ball, I've got a ball near my next two anyway Mm mm. and I've got to , another out of, in play, which is always useful. Right . Right. Presumably when you do land in a position like that even though as you say you're getting near the end of the game for the blue ball, you wouldn't deliberately not go through the hoop, if you'll put in that, if you put yourself in that position? You,, no, you you'd of played away. Yes. Right, right. Now, I've really got to start thinking about where I want the ball to be. Mm. When a , it would be nice to have yellow, that yellow's fairly near the hoop Yes. so if I can get that. Yes. Mm. Shall I go and get the tea? Oh excellent. Thank you very much. Yes! Yes! Yes! I think my, my head is actually somewhat Dave . Well, which which shot comes, in, after which shot and so on and so forth, I mean it's It's a Roman Catholic Church . Oh right. Yes, yes and, and there's no need to be going through a hoop, at any time, if you continuation constantly, you, you Well, you've normally got to go through. You can't let the yellow ball . Ah right, right, yes. You can see how . Yes, yes. Right. There should be if we were, they should be . Taking that all the way round. Yes, yes, yes. I see what you mean but a tactical game, my goodness, it's a Oh yes . Done it in a match,, games, if I was playing against you, I would . Yes. Fairly Yes. how well you play. Yes. That's why I can start to take reasonable risks hitting in . Right. . This obviously psychological . Think in many cases break down,break down in . Quite. Yes, who who is the arbiter? Erm . Oh really, yes, yes. So,, not . Yes, it's tricky . So now what they've done is playing a match . Depending on how many games . I see. Yeah I think . Yes. Professional game. Yes, yes, I seem yes. Yes. . Purpose of the game. Yes, yes. And . , I said, she said but I expect him to . Silly isn't it? Very silly. I didn't take any notice of them after that. No. No, no, no tut. in fact they make me aggravated.. No quite, quite, yeah. Yes, just enjoy the game and company, yes I . Oh, Vincent's one, eh Roger's probably about the next best man,better of the two of us that's why. That's what gets you Yes. more than anything. And you take part in most of these competitions? It's the best thing of course so It's a very weird thing to be doing really isn't it? You can leave it there if you want even though it's the ladies Yeah. Thank you club house just to the left. Right. There's certainly a fancy er club house there isn't it? What's what's this fancy building here David? Squash. Oh! Is it? Right. Aha. why we can't get on there, on the door Yes fine. Yes there's quite a lay out in the main building. Right Croquet and squash. Bowls down the side Oh yes. It used to be about the best bowling green in the in this part of the country. Did it really? Yes. Only the one tennis court? No there's one there there's one here. Oh yes. Over there that's behind me that's Oh yes, yes. I am not sure whether it's those certainly where you can see the right players . Eileen's husband is the leading light in the bowls. Oh is he? Really? And is that ah er another cricket team altogether or what? Club altogether? That's another club. Yes. This is the club Right. Yes. I think he he had a heart attack recently. I think he is off of it now but I think he must be quite a leading light Yes yes. speak to David . Oh was he? Yes. Oh! Oh! Yes yes indeed now, now I'm there and there aren't I? Now if you were using this this is what we would do. It's probably erm, yeah I think you'd probably have a shot at your yellow. Doesn't matter if you go off because you could come up behind it Mmm mmm and it once Yes yes. Fine. Right. I could actually feel that in in my wrists yes Soon as you think you're going to tense up too much you try the swing of the mallet. Right. Right so that's Well I think what you do is push the yellow somewhere towards the peg in the middle. Probably just the right you know, run. Yes Get the yellow to the right of the peg. Fine. Doesn't matter if you don't. If you kind of drop down behind the blue if you use the blue first and the bat's up there you gotta go sort of near to it to get behind you're going to rush down to your hoop. Now you've got a much easier shot haven't you? Yes You can just push blue back over there and and, or if you are not happy about that just a little take up. Bearing in mind that a take up is always a much more accurate shot, specially for beginners. It's just a little tiny tap and you're gonna That's it get right about there aren't you? Yep. Fine. Jolly good direction, but Too jolly heavy. Very good. That's lovely Gosh! Fourth time at last No, you've got the wave right I mean you know Yes. Yes. I mean you know loads of people like this don't always get it right. Really. Yes. You want a nice little bit of lawn there. That's another thing that should be looked at because Yes. Yes you could be on a rough patch or bumpy patch whatever yes yes Weedy patch yes, yes fine. So you can rush that blue down to the one now Down beyond of the hoop ideally. Yes. That was probably I rather overdid the angle too didn't I, the cut? Yeah, I think it's about, isn't it surely? That's a I'm very lucky I don't really have problems with the angles Good. at all but it's just . Yes it's much better. Right. Try a try a shot with a which would be a roll won't it? Most most people play this er with a fairly conventional croquet stroke because the black ball's the blue ball's gonna go twice the distance of the red. Isn't it? Yes. Roughly. Yes. So really just I I always have problems, I I always tend to play it down like that, I don't know why. But most, you should really stand up and play it with fairly,play together. You can't for real you can't really move blue ball you can move the red ball as much as you like but not What you have to do is to so just try a normally conventional just sling straight through here Yeah. You're doing what I was always doing the red, the yellow, but try it again. Yeah it was the red near the yellow you mean. Yes. Ivan Ivan! Okay. You can go now. Right. Hang on a bit. Try and step it forward Right Yep. I was pushing wasn't I? If I still was going down I'd do it like that Lovely! Yes or the blue I mean the red's gone all right. But that's what we're trying to do, trying Right. Okay. play the shot like that way, but I think whatever works for you. Well that's what counts isn't it? Yes. So I'm now going straight for the black? Oh no. You can move the yellow, can't you? Oh yes. Yes I see. What I would do, because you haven't got a blue hard enough is to push yellow off somewhere to the left of black Yes? so you can only push it across to three and get near the yellow, near the black. Right. You must you must get at least a ball a pioneer ball near your next two Right. to stand a chance. Okay. Fine. So you come up behind it so that your body and the striker's ball, that being your red ball and the other ball, the object ball are always the same straight line I mean it doesn't matter whether you come in from the side you're walking up to it in a straight line put your mallet down, swing it through. Yes. Lovely. Yes it all looks so darned easy when you do it David . Yes. I don't think it would be worth playing if it's easy. No. Absolutely. Absolutely and the that's why the You can't expect to get anything out of practice unless you concentrate on it Yes. Yes. Yes. That's it. Now that was a nice hit. That's not quite Not hard enough Yes. Put the other way it was a good stroke. You can get over to over to bat. You don't need to be very near bat, do you? So you know again I tend to hit it downwards you see, but a lot of players don't even er lot of players play their rolls like that. I tend to.. you know a lot of players don't play any side shots they play all their shots like that. Do they? yes. Yes. I tend to think it's easier to play at the side, because you can actually do that if you want. Yes You can, you know I can I can get two balls to almost roll from corner to corner by doing Yes yes yes So try it like that and swing your mallet too so you won't be able to go above hoop three and Right. Right. Okay. You've got to stand forward a little bit more, haven't you? You've got to play down on to the ball. Right. Right. So bring your feet forward a little You mean further forward. Right. Lovely. Yes lovely. Very good. Now that's pretty well perfect, isn't it? Smashing yes. Yes. That's good. Yes. Yes. You can still cut back over to the to about there. No no I wanting to get You want to hit croquet plan? Yes. To to get to there. You can then do a nice little shot to get closer on the hoop with red Right. Put black over there somewhere. Right. Put your mallet on the floor. Right yes yes good point yeah just right. Right that's a nice approach should be able to get the red somewhere Yes there it is a little roll shot. Right. If you do you're gonna play it by Do you prefer this would you? Well I think you should do what you feel comfortable at most most you you there again if you saw Vincent playing, he just plays it standing up. Well yes pretty good Is it? except you've got a slight problem, haven't you? Cos you can't really get that red through without crushing it. Ah ah I really didn't understand the crushing bit, sorry. Well, if I do that, that's a crush cos my mallet's in contact whilst the ball's in contact with the hoop. Right. I'm crushing the ball against the hoop. Your problem is that you because the line of that ball is overhanging the wire Yes even if you played it like that it's still a crush. Yes Yes mallet you're play really you've got no choice but to come back. Right right. I don't know. It's a very difficult one I think in a game that probably they'd just let you do that. Aha It did sound to me like a crush, because you've really got to play away from the mallet haven't you? The the that's the the the correct procedure is it, to play away rather than a I think most people would consider I mean if you can picture the course of the ball, it's gonna do that, isn't it? Mm Your mallet is going to be is gotta be in contact with the mallet the ball whilst the ball is in contact with the wire Yes yes yes you can't No I didn't. No! I was just thinking should Join up? Should I be? Well I think you should join up because something's put in the middle but depends in a game If I was playing against a level player you might just have a very hard crack together, but just to join up gently in the middle. Right right fine. If you miss , you're still playing Yes I didn't show you this David. That's that's what it's about. The Longman Treasury of Spoken English And they're simply recording an awful lot of people in conversation. Oh yes. Erm and they will keep them in the archives and I suppose transcribe them or something of the sort. Yes interesting. Yes, yes it is rather intriguing. They just knocked at the door and said how would you care to take part? just stroke. Oh yes, and of course when you have it for two days you can't actually guard your language all the time I don't suppose they really want you to, do they? No I'm certain they don't. That's the last thing they want. Hardly ever. What never. Well hardly ever. I'm always criticizing on the B B C and I T V. About the English? Oh yes. There's certainly plenty to criticize there, isn't there? I've got a bee in my bonnet about it. Isn't it a good job we're perfect, eh? And there's the controversy, which I don't approve of controversy and they rather roll their tongues around and in and out of words and Don't you think that's one of the beauties of English though? The problem is slightly in that Formidable isn't she. Formidable. Yes formidable I agree. But word word pronunciations gets changed just by common usage don't they? Yes they do. They do indeed. Yes. Peculiar day for the first of June, isn't it? It's National Croquet Day did you remember that? National Croquet Day? Mmm. Is it? Yes. Who told you that? Er I think I learnt that when I went to the meeting of the South East Croquet Federation earlier in the year. Oh yes, when I was Yes you said David that in fact it was arranged a little late and some clubs didn't manage to fit it into their programme. Well no. Yes. We we had an open day last Sunday, or Sunday before, I forget. Yes yes fair enough but We could have held it today if we thought Right. When was it held? The open day? You you No I don't mean how Oh no. Do you mean the You said you went on the ticket Oh South East Croquet Federation Committee Meeting. Yes. That was in Steven's house I think that was The other one Caterham the other one Was that the A G M or Er no that was A G M. Where David used to live Oh really? who founded the South East Croquet Federation. Yes he moved to France. Is that David the designer? No. No. Northern France. But I can't remember the name of the Oh yes. He still is involved with croquet because you see he organizes this week at erm later in the year. Oh yes Yes, that's right yes. navigation. Who? My daughter. Oh is she? Oh yes. I'm going down in about a month's time. Italian coast . Yes. David not as far as St Tropez where Horrible aren't they those oil slicks they're dreadful. Have you always lived in this area, Evelyn? Yes,home town. Sorry which is your home town? Bournemouth. Oh lovely yes I like Bournemouth thank you so much very kind of you. Pleasure. Thanks awfully. Nice to meet you Evelyn. Thank you very much. Ah. Well you may see me again you never know I shall look forward to it. Cheerio. Funny old thing. Yes. Not a clue I don't think Really? Ah what she gets out of it I just don't know. Companionship I suppose. Yes yes. Shame. Oh well I suppose it's something isn't it? If she gets that out of it. Yes yes and it's fresh air gentle exercise, isn't it? Yes yes and it means she does get out and does see other people. Yes yes indeed. Does she tend to walk down when she goes? Oh does she? She did drive until last year but I would imagine that she's probably no longer safe driving. Sure She's had two or three accidents in . She's a goodly age, you know. Yes. Well I really enjoyed that David. Did you? Good! Yes, yes. It's a Do you want to come again?think about it Yes yes. You'll need come a good few times and give it three four six months. Yes. I think the books recommend really most players eighteen months to two years before you can come. Before you can call yourself a player? Well before you can start setting up a break. Yes. I mean that does vary enormously. When you come down from twenty to eight or nine in a season, you know Golly! I know. I mean he plays a lot of croquet. He only works three days a week anyway because of lot of tournaments Yes yes I mean he started at roughly about the same time as me. I think he's about five and a half five something like that. My goodness! Yes. He's probably even less. He's an amazing player to watch, bordering on breaking down all the time. Some of the shots he pulls off are fantastic. Really? Yes. Rather excitable that's the only problem. Yes. Comes from Barnsley. Oh yes. What is his name? Edward . Ah yes. So how do you think the Eden Park problem is going to be resolved? What we really need to do is to find some land to play on. I've almost given up on the London Borough of Bromley because the land, the areas that they've offered us have been quite impractical and although we've got, you know, croquet is a cheap sport. No clubs have very much money. I mean we've got something like five or six hundred pounds Yes. sitting doing nothing. But that doesn't go very far, does it? No. No it doesn't. I did go to Park Manor. I might go back there again. That a good idea. Because they've got the land, but I just didn't get on. What about the Bromley Cricket Club, Tennis Club, Hockey Club complex? I honestly don't know David. I genuinely do not know. I really feel in a borough as big as Bromley, which is the biggest Yes they must have somewhere where we can play, but erm perhaps I ought to trouble is that you get fobbed off you know. The Mayor, Mayoress said to me well we'll find you something but Yes So you you bandy her name about. People jump about for a bit but then having offered you Yes yep. They've done what they feel they should be doing They say well we've offered you three blocks and you've turned them all down and you say well yes but you've offered us blocks not not Not suitable for the purpose. Yes yes It's not just the erm the fact the area round you need it's also the location that's involved Yes indeed. That was part of the problem. We could have gone back to the where we started and then we only paid a couple of hundred pounds a year for the land that they used to keep the grass cut and everything but the problem was really the area. We'd never have been able to build a club up. Yes. And we we really decided that we would be much better not having all the hassle and just all joining or joining another club. Yes quite quite. It's much easier just belonging to a club and not having Yes absolutely yes absolutely. Go there when you want and play and It was very nice being there this afternoon and being able to walk straight on to the lawn. Yes yes well I think you will find that with most croquet clubs Really yes yes I think perhaps the top clubs like I don't I've never been there. They are supposed to have the best lawns in the country. Are they? Yes Very good membership. They spend a lot of money. In terms of lawns it's the biggest club in the world. Is it? Yes. They've got twelve thirteen lawns there. Gosh! They haven't got the membership. Shame. And of course the upkeep these days is quite high. Yes indeed. There's a sort of general Dulwich Sports Club ground keeping facility I assume Yes. for that ground? Yes. I think that perhaps, that croquet is a poor relation, but erm to the club itself, I don't know. But I would have thought probably the squash or the bowls strictly probably generate more money And the ground is more intensively used perhaps for that? Well that's yes. I think that that that perhaps again one of the problems with croquet. It uses up quite an area doesn't it for er mm Well is it any more than a tennis court? Well I suppose a game of tennis doesn't last as long No it doesn't. You can get several games in It is possibly no worse than the cricket Sure. area because they have twenty two players, haven't they? Yes Though they are only eleven twelve or thirteen on at any one time. Yes. Yes I mean if it is possible to provide that huge acreage I mean the space per player or whatever is rather less for croquet than for cricket, isn't it? Yes, except you need a more perfect lawn that's more perfect area Well there are there are green keepers aren't there? I know a guy who bowls at the Bromley Bowling Club in exactly and he told me that they have professional green keepers who look after lots of different greens and they come into them once a week or whatever. Do they? Well that's interesting because we were wondering who we could get to have a look at our lawns and tell what's wrong with it because they are not very good are they? No no that one we were playing on certainly wasn't the greenest and grassiest It's a problem. You will find with a lot of croquet lawns Is it? Yes yes. Well you know somewhere like Bromley Bowling Club would have a very good membership. So there's a lot of money coming in they could they could afford to have somebody like that Absolutely. looking after their lawns. Absolutely yes. And London Borough of Bromley have got a spare bowling green in I forget the name of the road but it's in the Beckenham area which unless they're doing work to any of the main bowling greens just lies fallow through the summer. Right. They obviously keep it cut and keep it up to scratch. Yes. But they were willing to let us play on it because croquet wouldn't have done any real harm. The money they wanted for us to use it even just a weekend was absolutely ridiculous which to me seems in opposition to the whole idea of the borough. Quite. The borough's providing spaces for people to enjoy themselves. Yes exactly, exactly. But the problem being now of course that I think in line with most London boroughs there is club which tennis club which has tennis courts on Local Authority land. They actually enter into a lease or tennis agreement with the London Borough Yes. for a period of five or ten years and lease it off them and then have to maintain it. And of course if you want to use somewhere like the bowling green for bowls or croquet then you've got to pay the going rate. Yes indeed yes. But I did feel that perhaps they could have bent the rules a little. Yes and there are different going rates for different things as there are with property, aren't there? I would have thought so. But I suppose as a bowling green then you but he said that we've already cut the stick their neck out will they? No no no no no. They are far too liable to have it chopped off. Or they think they are. Yes. I must admit that I got fed up with pursuing it and I think it's like banging your head against a brick wall in the end. Yes. Didn't really have the energy to pursue it. Yeah. No I don't blame you. If it did say locate to the Bickley area or something like that would you change the name? Probably. If they did locate then I could get quite a good membership Yes. Oh yes. ith croquet you know where the croquet players are and where they live. Yes. Yes. And even in quite a wide area not perhaps the garden croquet players you wouldn't know about the people who play in the back garden but you know the people who play in tournaments. Or people who belong to other clubs. Yes indeed. Yes Yes. It's odd I suppose because I mean I could be much happier to play a lot more if there was a subscription towards croquet. It didn't particularly bother me. Aha. I would think one gets a lot out membership Yes yes. This is the dress I'm thinking of taking from erm Marks. Do you think it suits me? Is it possible to wear it with a belt? Or There isn't belt How Are you having second thoughts about having it, dear? I'm not so hundred percent certain it's not one of those things that I think Right. Well I what I think Suzannah and I are both genuinely in favour. Definitely that's what I want. No. I think Suzannah and I are genuinely in favour. What would you wear as an exit? Does it need to be a high neck sort of thing? Well not necessarily it could have some loopy beads or something couldn't you? What colour? Brown blue yellow red. Any of those colours Colour coordination himself. and a boop boop boop boop to you too. What what jewellery colours can mum wear with that? But I like to wear a little jewellery. Yes and the children like to see it. I mean a little elephant brooch or something. Have you still got that other elephant belt that tan one? Cream one, you mean? Cream one, yes. Happy with it all? I don't know but to be truthful I am not hundred percent sold on any of it. Oh I'm sorry about that. Because I like them all. That's correct. May I look at that please? With the pads in I feel square on the top. If I could take them out. Just a moment, may I? They don't look harsh. To me they are too wide. Alright to me they don't look harsh. You know they don't sort of poke up in the air like shoulders sometimes do. Was it exciting in the shop today? I had a chip incidentally fallen off your plate. They're rather good weren't they? Yeah they were nice. Mm What you going to do with Sam tonight? What do you expect to happen in the Tigers tonight? Nothing. Ah! What you and Sam thought you were going to be doing. Some of his friends coming as well. Are they? Supposed to have a chat you know. Yes. I haven't seen any of them for ages. I haven't even seen Bret since I was a bit drunk Well don't get too drunk tonight please. All right Whose eighteenth birthday is this? Debbie's? So you still haven't sent the invitations out eh? don't worry about it. Take them with you, won't you? Yes. Has Mum told you that we're going out for a Chinese? Mmm. To 's. Fancy coming? Bring me back some prawn balls. You don't get prawn balls in 's my dear What? You do not get prawn balls in 's. You get much superior Good heavens! I thought it was prawn What's that? Who? Good. Right we shall be off very shortly. Alright. Sorry darling Its all right she's been trying to get something for the mother of the bride. What a gift? No Oh! I see yes yes and she is the mother of the bride. I take your point. Your blue one. My blue one? No I won't wear my blue one, it's Dad your colour combination is amazing. Thank you I appreciate that. It's alright. We don't mind if you can't match your colours properly, but you When does this finish? Tonight. I might carry on a bit tomorrow. Depending on how many few tapes whatever I've done. How many I don't think they've said that. They've given me twenty or twenty four twenty tapes. I've done just over fifty percent of them so far. No. I've done about fifty percent I think. I've just put in tape ten so we're nearly half way there. There's no obligation to fill all the tapes. No and anyway it depends where you are dinner party talking to you. It will be difficult Yes. It's very strange approaching Petswood from this side isn't it? You either turn left to go to one side of Petswood or right to go to the other side of Petswood. It's a the railway provides quite a split. It's a full car in front. Mmm. Teenagers probably. Looking awfully big being rather young. Nice green view. Good. I asked Suzannah what prompted her to go up to town tonight. But she hasn't gone up there for ages. She's very low. She was going to Spain for a holiday she and her friend Tracy Erm and Tracy has cried off. Oh dear! So she's had summer holiday plans fallen through. She's feeling a bit David is looking for somewhere to put his croquet club. What do you mean by that? Well he's got a croquet club without a ground. Oh you mean a club? A number of people not a club stick? It's not called like a golf club that you hit the ball with? Ah! Correct. He's looking for ground land. Not looking much of a hurry What's that thing out there hydrants or something? On which to play croquet? Yes. He occasionally he gets by the club. Uncomfortable next to the Tigers. Excuse me. Erm. Yes he was he is the Secretary of Eden Park Croquet Club which was an offshoot of Eden Park Cricket Club. Where is Eden Park? It's between Beckenham and Croydon. And They don't have anywhere to play? at the moment they don't have anywhere to play. What do you need for a croquet club? Well you need ideally some space for about four or five tennis courts to run Quite a lot Well that would run you three lawns How big is a lawn? which would be ideal. As big as a tennis court? I believe it's twenty four by sixteen ideally. Is that bigger than a tennis court? It's about the size of a double tennis court apparently. Double tennis court? Mhm. Gosh! With the surrounds. Presumably you can't use it for anything else because it needs to be very smooth and perfect. Is there cold air blowing in this car? It's hot air blowing in. I know any air but something's blowing. You can erm you can't use it for anything else but croquet? No. But then it's not a very big area. You know as you can't use a tennis court for anything else or bowling green for anything else. No. But it does sound quite a big area to me if you haven't got the land in the first place. It would mean somebody's got to give up something. You could fit it on a bowling green. But then who wants to give up a bowling green? Well I'm talking of space. The area you need. You've got the area. That's fine but you haven't got any land at all. Mm. It's quite a lot of land to find. Absolutely true. It's not like somebody's back garden. Yep. So where were they playing today? They went to Dulwich. Is there a croquet club there? Yes. Burbidge Road. Which is where Carlos used to live. How many croquet clubs are there around here? Very few. Sydenham is possible. ran an evening class affair. Not one in Bromley? No. There's nothing in Bromley. Apparently the Mayor last year or the Mayoress er was rather keen and organized a match between the Dulwich Club and her team nominally which turned out to be made up of masters from Dulwich College . Well apparently they have a lawn and they play it. Well yes people who play. Oh you need people who know the game anyway. Then Oh no. You need to know how to play. Oh indeed you do. Mighty complicated it is too. Well I was reading that article in the Sunday Times with you and the chap who's the champion said he liked it because it's like chess and bridge. Mm. Mm. A game of strategy. Or I mean David was saying you can do this you can do that you can do the other you can do this. I I my mind was absolutely blown by the end. It it was almost impossible to erm If you were latch on to everything. starting out out. Doing it from scratch. If somebody was used to teaching croquet they wouldn't tell you everything all at once. And you can gradually build up. Well he was coaching me and he was very good. Oh good. Very good. I can understand why he has been invited to coach. Very good. In Petts Wood I found a little space like that to park in. There was a great queue behind and I went in absolutely perfectly. Right into the space and I was pleased with myself. You know how Good. I know. I haven't done it easily but I've done it and I'm pleased. I'm not clever as you like you are. Well done! I wasn't Yes you have to do that I believe these days too. I can't read Chinese I don't think it said Chinese on there dear. Good evening sir. Good evening ma'am. For two. Yes, I rang on the telephone yesterday. Your name sir? You booked for two, yes? I booked indeed yes. How about this one? Will be okay? Thank you. The one over here? Are you going to sit here? If this is the one you meant. This one, or this one I think this one is nice. This is fine. Yes this is just fine. Thank you very much indeed yes. Alright? Yes thank you. What do you fancy drinking? I'm for a lager I think a lager Yes yes I agree. I prefer it. Lemon chicken Lemon chicken stuffed mushrooms. Singapore noodles we enjoyed. Yes I'm sure they were Singapore noodles. We'll have noodles not rice certainly. Where are these stuffed mushrooms? I can't see them. Can't remember what they were stuffed with can you? And bean bean sprouts we had too. and stuffed mushrooms Oh yes. Don't let's have bean sprouts. Alright we won't have bean sprouts. How about we have Chinese mushrooms with bamboo shoots? Seasonal Chinese vegetable with prawns. How about that? prawns with stuffed mushrooms. Would you like something first? Not first but what will you'll have a lager? I'll have a lager. May we have two lagers please? So we shall have lemon chicken, stuffed mushrooms, we had something else didn't we last time? We may have had bean sprouts with noodles. We had bean sprouts last time yes. Yes but I don't like bean sprouts. Right. But you enjoyed the noodles. Yes. But there was something else that we had. What we had something more than just the bean sprouts? We had we certainly had lemon chicken stuffed mushrooms, And noodles. and noodles. We had something like bean sprouts last time Yes I think we did but we also had something else. Yes we did. What would you like to have start with? What do you want? Wan Ton soup. What with vegetables, I suppose. Oh we won't have either of them then. Have some Wan Ton soup . What is Wan Ton soup? All sorts of bits in it. What do you mean by that? Or do you fancy I can't remember. It's a long long time since I had it. We'd have mixed appetites if you'd given it any thought. How about having Are we thinking about how romantic Or why not a Dim Sum? Which is a classic Chinese. But we've never had that here. You had that let's start with Dim Sum. Now over here we are short of one Or have some vegetables. Alright. Alright. No. I was thinking of the seasons Chinese vegetables were born. They were not born in the mushrooms. Mushrooms right. Right. We weren't going to put mushrooms with prawns. Yes we are. I think we are. We'll both have Dim Sum, lemon chicken erm Chinese vegetables with prawns. Stuffed mushrooms. And some noodles. Special noodles? Singapore noodles. What is the difference between Singapore noodles and special noodles? Singapore noodles have hot spices. But the others Is not? Special noodles are not so spicy? No. We'll have special noodles. I see this restaurant allows smoking. What sorry? This restaurant allows smoking. Restaurants local restaurants can't afford not to dear. I think if you're talking about a very exclusive one up in town they might well say no smoking. Oh we have to share a finger bowl. isn't it? Golly it'd be interesting to know what they'd make of this tape for the next couple of hours. Yes indeed. Was it at work Where it works? David find it being there? No. No he said he forgot about it quite quickly. Are you going to play it back or listen to it? I beg your pardon? Are you going to play it back or listen to it? Which one? The tapes. All of them? I haven't got a player for two full days in which to do it. No. I must tape number ten no it takes an hour and a half on tape number ten. That's fifteen hours. Play it at work. Well you can if you'd like to but I'm not going to. I remember Thank you. May we have the bill? They're busy little bees in here The restaurant's nice. It is indeed. When you've had a day in the open air you have a sort of Glow. glow. it really was chilly by the time I Well I mean you can relax on that score because you had a very good half hour run with me. She wasn't in frantic form but she was zipping hither and dither. She insisted on coming Galloped around the outside. I was absolutely steaming by the time I got back to the car. It was very hot. And the very erm she was very anxious to come with me when I went out into the park. To get me into the car so I let her come. Good. To get the what? Oh yes. And she had to come in the car while I There's a take away here. a bag for somebody. A doggy bag. No. A great big carrier bag you can't see it it's just outside. It all seems rather a shame really you know to do a take away . I mean that rather a nice Chinese restaurant in the high street does take away. We had one last week. but if you're going to pay a lot of money for your take away I wonder if they charge the same prices for their take away as for sitting at the table. I think they really must. My mother I know I know in the past I have er ten percent or something. But I may be going back far too long for the evening. Well you'd think they could because you are not paying for the service are you? That's right. Yes I think I could become really absorbed in croquet. I don't know if I'd become good at it but I think Why not? but I think it'd be a game that one could become absorbed in. It's not physically demanding other than in stamina concentration terms. It's hardly physically demanding is it? And the course that David went on before he was asked to coach on it was for advanced people anyway . And he said ah er I misunderstood this and er and I said well you know when is it? Who knows may be I could baah aah aah. And he said, er er. Just possible that you standard because he obviously seemed to think that I was that I had some great possible qualities but But? Well I would I, he would say you know you know you don't croquet that and it's a short bom bom and it's It's the first time you've done it. Oh!what does he mean by that? And so on and so forth. But he must be quite good unusual to start by playing a whole game? Well I mean he showed me how er er he showed me how the mallet is operated. There's no standard grip you Alright? I have mine. Thank you. I notice that you do takeaways here? Yes we do. Do you charge the same prices as in the restaurant? Oh no. It's cheaper than the restaurant. Yes yes Ah! I'm I'm pleased to hear that. That's interesting we were One moment. I give you our menu you know. Yes thank you. I would be interested. except V A T. Yes. You can charge more Well they're not receiving excuse me the service and the pleasure of the table and the atmosphere. You see when you want to get home I charge more. The people why they want here they can have cheaper right here. Yes. Yes. Yes. I give you one menu, okay? Thank you. And it always smells good here doesn't it? It always smells super. Who is the tall thin chap sitting next to Diane? I don't know darling. Probably their family or something I don't know. Do you remember being here with ? Yes I do. We sat there. Ham and Eve Ham and Eve! And they enjoyed it didn't they? Yes. Unfortunately you chose the ginger beetle, the toffee beetle or something of the sort it had a gingery look to it. Oh is that what it's called? Yes. It was very feathery. Not gingery feathery. Did you notice in the front of the back so you must remember to take back. Somebody has started a boat on the river. The article on the front page. I haven't seen it no. The cook from the Spread Eagle. Oh yeah. Chef who is no longer there? Chefette yes? He has acquired a boat. or somewhere. Yes. Yes. Yes. Which he uses for parties rather than as a restaurant. And you can hire it out. Somebody had a super birthday party for their husband. And the cheapest menu was thirteen pounds. Yes. Based on O'Hagen sausage. Yes. Yes. Yes I thought that was rather good. Sounded rather fun. Yes it did. Quite pricey actually Yes well it was pricey. But then you're paying for the use of the boat as well aren't you? Yes but then when I came here with you. The meal was thirteen pounds ten Right. plus the wine. But that was, a year ago two years ago. A year and half ago anyway. Nearly two years ago. Erm she said six months ahead. Oh really? She said when you came and I rang to confirm it all she said you're very lucky because he agreed thirteen pounds and we don't do it for under fifteen pounds now. Really? And I said oh dear! I hope you're not going to be feeling mean about it you know because Yes. because they weren't, were they? No. No. No they were not. They were not they were honest. They were honest and straightforward and jolly good stuff. It was really thanks to Linda and Graham because I never would have done it otherwise. No. You learn about these things in different ways don't you? it's all very I think Linda and Graham were the only people there who had been before have any other common Quite probably. The only local people in Essex probably. Is that our Dim Sum. Goody goody. Yes please. Thank you. Thank you. What's inside that? Little dumplings. Little dumplings such as you've never come across other than in a Chinese Restaurant. Her birthday's the fourteenth. Do you know which day of the week that is? I know the first is a Monday. So the fifteenth will be a Monday. So the fourteenth will be a Sunday. How long have you been working on that? Saturday. She finishes in August did you say? Right. Thank you. Thank you. When do you finish school? Twelfth is my last day of . Good. Thank you. Very tasty. Can't, fifteenth is a Monday. The Wednesday the tenth. Erm this is the first of the month My birthday's on Monday obviously at this rate. There's a one eight fifteen on Mondays which means that Wednesday the ten I must finish on the tenth Wednesday. Wednesday. I should need to go in on the eleventh to clear up I expect. Yes. But I could just about fit in going. I mean I should be finished in time for that weekend. Yes good. We can go down and come back specifically on the Monday . No no. There's only Snoopy but she'd have finished college by then. Yes. Only if she gets her thing and finishes. That Monday will be okay. For presentations That's the Monday before you finish? Will you be under huge pressures or will you be winding down a bit by then? Well hopefully I'll be winding down. You'll probably be rehearsing a part for a silly end of year staff entertainment or something. I haven't heard anything about that. I don't think we do that in the summer term. Oh really. That's what you had in mind wasn't it? No that's what you suggested. Or what had you in mind? Nothing No. Certainly don't want your pretty rotten Mm. Sure. Mm. Can you smell that? Whatever it is. Wonderful! Slightly slightly burned. Yes but caramelly burned, isn't it? Quality burned. Do you think Christine and Colin would enjoy a meal here? Sure. stuffed mushrooms. Lovely. Thank you. Splendid. It's probably what smelled. Sizzling and sizzling. Yes. Wonderful. When he comes from erm Yes? I'd like a glass of water. Good. There's no hurry. Madam! Madam! May we have two glasses of water please? Thank you. Thank you. Is that the mixed vegetables and stuff? special noodles or Chinese vegetables. No we had mushrooms and noodles. Didn't we ask for mushrooms and noodles before? Can't remember. Doesn't look like that to me. dreadful. Well we didn't ask for that. mushrooms and . Oh no you said mixed Chinese vegetables in beef I don't know Oh I'm sorry I've got beef. anyway. Tell me what we've got here will you? Okay yes sir. Stuffed mushrooms. Yes. Special noodles. Ah! Special noodles. Special noodles. Yes Lemon chicken and Lovely! Thank you. Thank you. We didn't recognise that. It's very special. Very special. It not noodles . Thank you very much. Thank you. Right. Careful the spoons on the plates are hot. More sauce? Very special. Prawns in it and all sorts. I don't think it is the same ones we had the last time. I think we probably did have Singapore noodles last time. Super! Thank you. your noodles. I think for the moment I'll just enjoy these two dishes if that's okay. Mm. I'm glad you don't use chopsticks either. I don't suppose we'll need to, fiddle around dear. So difficult to pick up. Mm. Absolutely. We got here in the nick of time or we would have had the rotten table otherwise. Mm. It's a bit nearer nine now. Mm. Where did those prawns come from? From that dish or from that dish? The noodle dish. Well. Well. Special noodles have everything. Yes lovely. You didn't get in any of vegetables. No. Well they're very similar looking dishes aren't they? Lovely crunchy vegetables aren't they? Super. Alright? Lovely. Thank you. Thank you very much. Did you ever hear what the Palmer children girls had for for their twenty first birthday celebration? Were they not the ones who had the fancy dress party the Victorian dress party at the hotel? It wasn't Victorian is was the twentieth Right. Am I right though? Yes. That's right. I thought that was a lovely idea. Yes. Absolutely super. I'm awfully sorry we weren't involved. We don't really know them well enough do we? That's right. I can't say Towering temples and things. Look at the beast they've got over there on that table. Do you see him? With his ears? Such a Or something like that. No I don't think so. I think it's a dish you choose. Where's Snoopy getting the money from to go to the Tiger's Head tonight? credit cards in use. She can go where she likes. I only gave her fifteen. So I said I was tired of waiting for the money for my things and she can collect it from the students and have it when it came. Well done. That was a fiver was it? Yes. Presumably they've all got their films. So they should jolly well be stumping up. If she's not bothered to collect them Yep yep suffer. Yep. No no don't push any more on me! Sorry. Thank you. Hang on hang on. It's alright. Move it up to the edge of your tray. Oh bad luck. Do you want some more chicken? Thank you. Yes. I was holding it in such an awkward way that fingers eventually protested. What did you get to put in the middle of the erm lobelia in that other pot? Erm geraniums and er petunias, busy lizzy. Okay? Ya. Where did you get them in the end? All different places. Oh right. Were they better value than previously or Well similar or what? Thomsons' geraniums on the whole were very good value. One twenty five one ninety. Goodness! Extraordinary! There were some cheaper geraniums around but they were the trailing kind. To have in hanging baskets. They're having it earlier this afternoon Oh yes. If your marriage is consummated before never consummated after the marriage service is that an annulment? Oddly I would have thought. It's false. Really? quickly. Because presumably what you do before the marriage,of marriage. It wasn't mm. Yes. Well. Interesting idea. One side said yes the other side says no. Ha? That's what they said. Yeah. I heard somewhere that John's living in now. He is a long way away. Who told you that? I've no idea. Absolutely no idea. But he was a sailing man. I always might have known that. Christine? I've no idea. Probably not. Probably not. You did say in her that you heard from Sally I didn't get my usual Christmas letter. I told her Sally hadn't Good. Really there's nothing to stop me from giving Sally a ring is there this week end? Hopefully it's not terribly expensive. Do you think the world will ever get get the balance right feeding the starving? No never. One apple and one banana, toffee apple if you've got no banana. One of each please Yes. Yes. You want coffee afterwards? Yes please. Two coffees Strange little creature. Well it's always been an awful lot worse than it is now. Why is it No it is communication that tells us that it is so awful now. I don't think it's any worse now, it's just that we've written no about it. Well, I don't know if that's true or not. But it's nonsense flying in food to Ethiopia Bangladesh and all the rest of it Isn't it better to do nothing? Let them die. Why why is that better? Because that is the way of the world, they're living in very very marginal areas that do not sustain life. You will never ever stop sending food to areas like that. They're areas that people should not be living. Is that a bad thing? I mean if if presumably people go on being born there surely we should leave them. It doesn't really matter to human beings as long as they have nourishment. If you worked in this country and for some reason and were starving you wouldn't care if they fed you. The individual of course wants feeding needs feeding but should all resources of this area that area be rife to that particular point, every two to three years? Well why should they not? Because that's what happened to Bangladesh. Why should they not? Because they don't have any genuine effect. It happens over and over and over again. Nobody ever learns anything Maybe we should be when your budget for all nations have plenty of food and plenty of resources should automatically make this sort of money and food available to nations without it. Maybe that's the answer. Maybe it is. Maybe it should be an emergency aid those that have given and those that have not. I mean if that's the only way that people were kept in reasonable health. the money comes from I don't think we are talking about kept in reasonable health dear I think it is a question of living in an environment which does not genuinely support over any sensible period of time normal human life. Have you order? We have thank you yes. Have you order coffee as well? As well. Yes. You like coffee now or later? Later please. You want coffee now? No later later. Yes they've always been like that and they always will be like that. They're the same, let them die. That's not normal. Because there'll just be more people. Otherwise they would have died out long ago. Well I mean may be there's there's there's an argument on teaching contraception measures. I'm sure there is as well. That never the full answer because pushing people into that is one thing they should have. Yes. I mean six to one is you know that. Sure. People with no money and no home always seem to end up having children. Whereas if you and I didn't have a roof over our head Mm I mean the last thing we'd think about is excluding children. But they do. Yes. How right you are. It would be a good idea if you do teach them the ways of contraception available it's never going to stop people having babies. I mean in China they families and what have they got? They've not denied the situation at all have they? No. No. Or families where they kill a child for being the wrong sex. Yes. Only children growing up in the lap of luxury Yes. And mothers are supposed to sink all their hopes ambitions in the one child. Watching their education. Mm. Strange thing they'll have two and three. They're a nation of super brats. Whereas mothers at home aren't their usual selves because they've their children to look after. I mean but interesting but not the ideal answer. Does that mean that Anna has actually slept in that too? She had a good long night with no disturbance. Good. I noticed on your card she called him Daniel David and then behold he's going to be just Daniel. Well David is his second name. I know what his second name was. Oh really. Lena is Lena Rachael. Ha? Real Toffee isn't it? Mm. By Gosh! Hot stuff. Presumably they're awfully Yes. Hubbling bubbling oil. Whenever we come here we see somebody we know don't we? Do we? Mm. Who did we see the last time we were here? We saw Gill ? Did we? Who's she? She used to live in Close. Their younger daughter was the same age as Suzannah and went to and went to the same national school. Oh really? Their elder daughter was in my guides. They went to Bromley High. Catherine was actually a year lower than Suzannah. They moved into Petts Wood into Birchwood Avenue. Then her husband left her. Oh gosh! They were divorced. We saw her here. is still working in Sainsbury's. Does she? Saturday job. She works in the bakery. Oh. As opposed to an accountant. Where did she do her study or work or whatever? I think she did it in Orpington Tech. Aha. I bet Lynda's in for a lark for the next year. She's round the corner when Raymond . And then she'll come home some days and discover the place chockablock with students or three birds in bed with him or something. That's unlikely. I agree they are Sorry? school again already. Erm Why did you go on a choir outing? There are caves which seem to We went into the caverns and erm saw the petrified caves where they, the water drip on objects and however many years they build up a stone coating. Do they have stalagmites? And stalactites. What are they called where they meet in the middle? Columns I suppose or pillars. Don't know. I'd be intrigued to know what those other two couples who were not informed about the cancelled christening feels. Yes Or not unless they join in wholeheartedly with the other lot. Perhaps they turned up outside, looked in and saw nobody they knew and went away again. I can ask Mary when I see Mhm. Has it been said that they hope to repeat the experience or ? I think they're more concerned that the baby has an operation now. What what is the situation there? Some time in June. I expect they are waiting to called. You like some more coffee? Yes please. The young lady is talking as if she's a member of the family because she's paying so much over there. The boy sitting next to her Saying little. Oh really? Because he looks so like . They're celebrating Is she John's daughter or the other guy's? I don't know for sure really. I think he must be because of sounds like it. The mother the blond or the midway? I only saw Robin Did you? Mm. I er Sorry? It's fine. He said his children are busy at school. Ella's about to do work experience. Residential primary school Sounds if the girl plans to become a teacher. work experience if you remember. Didn't know what hit him did he? No I don't think he's planning to become a teacher. He certainly had himself a good varied he and his pal a good varied work experience, didn't he? What in our school? Mhm. and tennis coaching and don't know what else he did do. things on the wall on the ceiling for . down off the table. He must have been shattered. All I'm supposed to be his friends cut up all morning And Maureen asked him to cut them out I E to go round the edge. Yes. Then he cut out cut them all up Fatty like? Maureen Good grief! She put them all back together again? Yes. One doesn't want to overwhelm her Sure. not really never see her except when she's with school Well you did speak to her again and make the suggestion. I did. More coffee? Yes please I think I will ask her or suggest we meet or something. Yeah, by all means by all means. I just wonder if she and Cathy might like to come because she did say to me, how is Cathy and I said she was She knows about Cathy's problem? Yes , she so do you think Cathy would mind if I rang her and I said no I'm sure she wouldn't. At the end she left I said do ring Cathy if you feel like it because I'm sure she won't mind well it would be nice for us to find out who's been through the same thing recently. Mm. My grandmoth granny used to have these during the war. Did she really? I wonder where she got them from. Oh they were ho hoarded. Were they? She had them in a big glass jar and if you were very good and special occasions. Good. Only hers were all colours. These usually come in bigger chunks than that. Well they've got that girl over there 's got soup. What kind of soup has she got? It's got dumplings in it. That might be won ton soup. With dumplings in? I didn't see that. Ah. It looks as if over there stuck on the wall they've got a rechargeable for hoover for taking crumbs off the tables. Well as it's used in other muckier places I tend not to use it over cleaning table white cloths aah I'm very well fed. I'm very well fed too, I think I shall ask them for the bill Yes I did. to clobber in Black Heath village I notice it didn't say that the premises are now called the age centre. No today you see a lot of people wearing large earrings don't you? Yes. Is that why you wear such small ones? As so claims that was a rather naff comment actually, I can't imagine that, well I can imagine other people wearing big earrings because they're super confident. Then you obviously had a you did say such a lot of in the Radio Times somewhere I was reading today about er colours you wear. Oh yes. And how people who wear red go in in business situations go in to assert power you know I mean You do mean women in red suits presumably not men in red ties! No, men in red ties as well. Oh really? Yes When I put on red one day, I mean I don't think I have anything in red do I, but when I put on my clothes in the morning Would you like some more coffee? No thank yo would you like some more coffee? No thank you. Could we have the bill please? Yes. Erm I'm influenced by all kinds of things but I'm sure I'm not influenced by wishing for certain power or not. You don't need to. No, but I mean there are other such reasons I mean there may be initially choosing clothes or something like that, but when I put them on in the morning I usually put them on to suit the weather and what's clean and what I've got tights to match. Yes. Which shoes are comfortable today. Mhm. Or clean today. Yes. Whether I've got painting on them. Yes. Erm what I wore yesterday and the day before and also practical things like that. Yep. I think you need a lot of room for Very true. Whether its going to influence me or not Does that say forty pounds? Thirty nine pounds seventy it says. Actually that was very good I enjoyed it all. Yes. I don't mind, bills like that when it's all so nice. No, quite. I wonder if we were to look down our wedding invitation list, nearly twenty five years ago we could have a gathering when we're fifty five of all the people who were at our wedding if they're around today. Yeah. There would have to be some people w we wouldn't invite as well as the people who are no longer here. Yeah. I mean we'd invite Helen and some friends like, I don't know . Yes, the old folk. Mrs , Hilda and people like that but erm Do you still have the list? Yes it's there Thank you sir. along with mm a list of all the wedding people who received day Mm historical references aye. and cards, and telegrams. Wonderful, where do you keep them? In a box on top of the shelf. Most impressive! We'll have to get them out and have a look at them. Mm washing. Yes, when I spoke to Jack I said how's progress on fixing it? And he said it wa I reckon if they don't fix this weekend it's going to be next year, early next year. Early next year would be I made no comment. Yes, so there's nothing we can say we're not we don't want want to make them feel awkward about it I mean they have planned what they can plan. No good making them feel awkward, they just do what they're going to do and that's it. Yes quite well that's fair enough isn't it? They can't consider everybody or they could never make a decision. Thank you, right So you enjoy your ? We always do when we come here, thank you. Yes. It's always very nice I wish we could come more often. Yeah well maybe you're missing the Chinese food. That's right. Yeah thank you. Many thanks. Bye. Bye. A lovely treat, thank you darling. I enjoyed it glad you did. You chose very well, I used to get really nervous when I came to Chinese restaurants, I never knew what to choose. Really? But gradually over the years you get the hang of it. Some people get the hang of these things more quickly than I do. We didn't go often enough dear, that's the other thing. Right, shall we make tracks? Yes. Yes,Po Petts Wood was eh an inbetween the wars, trendy suburban development wasn't it? Well it's still Commuter land. it's still commuter land. Mm. It's not unpleasant at all, these I mean No I'm not saying it's unpleasant I'm saying it was trendy in those days. Trendy, yeah. But there is an awful lot of sameyness about it unfortunately. Well, especially in a long road like this. Mm. Some of the other roads have more individual houses in don't they? Well they have bigger detached houses I'm not sure how individual they actually are. But even these aren't all the same. Are they not? No they are all semi-detached but er there are two or three different styles and they are alternated. Have you had the accounts from John? From the office. No not yet, it was started on Tuesday this week they have the books for ten days or something before they started on them. How long do they take to do them? Oh well I've had certain queries already and so they're working on them? and the basis, basics would have been by the end of next week but certain, assuming that they are not interrupted and sort of dragged onto something more lucrative the bad news will have been quantified by then. Well we can't have a bad year presumably it means you don't pay tax. Mhm that's right. Which can't be a bad thing. Sure. Or are you paying for a year in a in arrears? Oh you, in in in essence you do but even so it's a you As long as you're pa not paying in your bad for your good year. Oh that, oh that happens too. Is that likely to happen this year then paying for last year? That's right. And the year before so you will have to pay tax. Something like that yes. Or or for bad year. That's right yes. But do you offset it, I mean can you? You what s normally happens is that the following year when you make profit you say ah but last year I made er you know I made a loss of ten thousand pound set that off against the profit of ten thousand pound I made this year so that tax pay losses can be carried forward there are other more complex ways of doing it too but that's the standard sort of way, I think. But it's the year that you haven't, but yo the year before that you haven't yet paid for you have to pay for it in the year that it you don't make any profit. Yes you normally pay for it in the following year. Yeah, so that's a bit of a disadvantage. Because yet pulled together the figures for last year. Sure. Sure, I I had fork out corporation tax a few months ago for the previous good year. Yes. John got a bit shirty about the ten pound or something, he reckoned his wife had didn't he? to pay his bill, no doubt. I don't think she'll be very pleased would she? That's not the point! She's enjoying herself, we met her at John's house I felt nervous this morning for sleeping home late although in fact I have been awake quite a lot in between, but Mm it was only ten to eight and I got up because I thought I was getting late for work and I'd better get moving. Was she walking in? No, they went on the bus this morning. Ah. She caught the twenty to nine bus. She might just about made it then because she certainly seemed to be a bit late on the move. She was alright, I made her something to eat. Mm, she said she wanted her jeans ironed and I er pressed them and then when I she came downstairs in her black trousers and Ah the ramblers must do a roaring trade. Yes we've never done anything about inviting I've been trying to get hold of him Really? to organize meat for the barbecue. When is the barbecue, the twentieth? Something of June Thirtieth. A Sunday. Sunday. Mm. Why? Becau Because I forgot That was the day I was thinking of having a proper lunch party but I won't do it if you're going out. Try the twenty-third. No, I haven't I won't have finished my reports then. Aha. two weekends away I shall be up my to ears in it mustn't plan anything for that weekend . Blowing awfully quickly, that's the second out of the sixth that you bought yesterday. Yes I bought them in Sainsbury's they are Sainsbury's bulbs aren't they? Philip's bulbs. I mean that was a new bulb, well that's the second one you've used. Second one I've used. No, not yet What's on television? Well there's only look like two that are anything discussing that film about the lambs whatever it's called with Jodie Foster, the rest didn't look very interesting but you may feel differently. Yes, a bit forgettable isn't it? I put my specs outside. They're in Oh here they are That's a very funny business isn't it? Effective exercise. Pardon? This bit about obesity. How about this No Smoking Please stickers have been sent out to London cabbies but unfortunately they will not arrive before next week. Mm. Marvellous skull of a Viking here. Really, what was that then? This eight hundred year old skull of a Viking found off the northern coast of Scotland Oh. and old other bones and possessions including shield,comb, brooch last weekend it was found. Mhm. The two people who found it are expected to receive the value of the brooch but it's a very well preserved skull, I suppose it was all in mud an I didn't know the Ethiopians had an imperial family, I suppose it was Haile Selassie's relatives is it? Mhm that's right yes some of the women were locked up for fifteen years. Really do to you. Some kind of brain. Not enough of it is the conclusion there. Oh it was really funny yesterday I tried recording Nick Right. and I had it on right and he came in right, and I was going, he was going, a long conversation all about little Harmony and everything and really going onto it,and I went to play it back and it hadn't recorded anything. Just like sort of, I've got it wrong again! Mm. Erm I recorded it the other day and I didn't even know. Yeah? I did. When? When Nick was here I turned that on. I told you, but it didn't come out very well. Mm. Was he, sort of stood at the pool? No, you invited him round didn't you? It was playing, it was just so sort of playing. And like no one noticed. Mm mm. Mm mm! Mm mm! How much have you got there ? Oh it's too late now, I've already seen it. You can't miss anything in this bloody room. Are you gonna go to bed in a minute? I can't waste my life sleeping. So this place in Kingston erm I don't think I'm gonna get it. Might not have any jobs left. I thought somebody else Perhaps somebody's working at Kingston, as long as I get a trial. Well there might, there might be a possibility? It's still big, bad boss. Well you need to talk to them. He's kinda talked himself into it. Why, is he horrible? Eh? Is he horrible? No, he's alright, but I just hate talking to people over the phone. And if it's you can I always miss things on the phone. Really I'm still . I was supposed to get up this morning at half six to fe , make sure you got out the bath properly. Disgusting! I went up to bed last night, I was falling asleep at half nine so so you're not watching the infidel tonight? So only you were left? Yeah, I had Lisa round. She's alright, she's just decides to slow down at night. She's gonna go back tonight. Does, she lives in Hitchin? I've got to take her to the school, her T B scores were up. isn't it? I actually expected her to be at home a lot more often cos it's o , it's a lot quicker for her to ge , to get from Blackheath to wha to er Ca Camberwell than it is to get back here. Well it's not a Well I would problem for her to get here though is it really? Oh well she says the train . She won't get my, back on a train though will she to college? But it's so much easier than the, to drive. Yeah. It must cost . It's whether it'll be cheaper or not. The trains or would it be more expensive to drive? Mm mm. Is it nice? Good. Mm mm mm! You got any of them things you don't want. Mm. Some foreign, crappy, shitty Now you're gonna get all depressed aren't you? Just like No! your mum does. We well actually, I'm not hungry. Last night,, this Sunday, all I had was a banana at lunchtime, hadn't eaten all day or drunk, I had two glasses of water That's ridiculous! Just ! And, then I had my dinner in the night time. And I had Aha. my first ever tin of rice pudding. It's low fat . And today I've had cereal, gonna have lunch about twelve, and then have dinner tonight. Tt tt! I had a these are twenty eight pounds. Yeah. Oh I went to the doctors last night cos I had that check up didn't I? And he said, I'm two stone overweight, he just I'm just over half a stone over weight. There's no way you're two stone overweight Oh well actually but the doctor wouldn't lie to you to make you feel better. No. And he went to me, he's going, do you smoke? I went, erm I haven't for a while, I said but I do very occasionally cos I he goes Andy, do you want a cup of tea? Er er, yeah. Cheers. Do you want one Nick? Why not? D'ya know what I should have had your certificate today? Well Why? cos I, I went down to sort it out and like, if I'd had yours I could have, they could have mended it there and then. Oh I'll go down tomorrow. Go down tomorrow and just explain, Andy's need to be soled Andy's will be a bit awkward. I, no,to tell me what's happening? What have they said? We should have all gone down together then? No, it's that he, he goes, if I had the other one he could have done it there and then on the computer. Oh right. Yeah, but you see So it just means I gotta, do I have to take the thing in with me? Just go down Just tomorrow take a letter from me as . What, what's that? Hey? ? What's that then? Why don't you say fuck them right off and they'll think that you . Oh! Don't make me laugh. Do you want me to send them today? I do now! No! But he Just thought I'd talk to myself though. Buy me a present. When I go cos when I, it didn't say much, is a, is, he really wasn't going? I believe. No he doesn't want to. He's moving in. Anyway No! No. You've got peppers all up your arse. Cos she asked for one, you didn't ask for anything. I'll get you a pencil from Do you want coffee Nick? We're going to be using Ipswich again actually. Want coffee Nick? Erm please. Three? Yes please. Ah ah! Da da da da. Don't give me that shit Mr er er, we're having the heating on at night while Andy's not here! Erm what's, what's this about the would work? You said this bills cut. You're paying all of it forever. I'll find another job. Erm Five fifty. I dunno. So they are What is it? Okay the er er er, public, public school boy. Oh you No, no, no. Heritage temptation actually. Oh is it? Oh. Sort of heritage crap. . Ah. Ah. Put a bit of light . As you say I just, she told me so so Who? this girl from , turn up at these . Oh right. And if we go about ten is that alright? Ten, I said ten, eleven probably. Oh that's alright. Do you want to come a party Saturday night or are you working? I'm working. He's working. Ah! He's working! Well you two can go together. We ee ee ee! Wahey! Wahey! Wahey! Hand And in hand. told tell Penny. I'll ring Penny up we can apologize. Ah! Did you hear what he did? Rang us up at quarter past bloody one this morning! I went fucking! Half past one. Ha! You shouldn't go to bed too early! No, right, they were tired they wore each other out might have been. Well I was getting up early. Sorry ? I had to get up early this morning. Had be to be up at quarter to eight. This is early for me. Da, da da da da da . Andy, what this, are you cooking tonight Andy ? What? What are you cooking tonight? Are you cooking tonight? No I'm cooking for myself tonight. No , you're not. You could be. Do you want me to go and get something from cos it's cheaper. What's cheaper? Ah you, you can't Bloody lucky though. You pikey! Typical! Pikey? Pikey! What's pikey? What does pikey mean? I dunno. Crusty. I've heard of crusty but not Don't you know what pikey means? Pikey? You don't know what pikey means. I'll get us there, there for half past. Ooh ah ah! I've gotta get down . I wonder if Liza'll be home tonight? Yes. I wonder. She said she'd be back. And don't forget You're looking forward to it aren't you? Oh yeah! We're gonna have I know. I'll find You're dealing with it mate. I'm not dealing with anything. Why? She'll be I dunno. alright. She'll be alright about the thing. Agony Aunt Nick. Oh my God! Er er Nick Rayner! Ah you're quite sympathetic though Nick. You for us. She thinks your wonderful! Oh God! Sympathetic? Are you gonna take that off? Not while I'm around now. No, no, you can have some of this candy. I will let you have a slice. Want some? No. Yes please. I'm on a diet aren't I? Oh it doesn't matter about that. Scrap it for one day. No. No. One piece of fruit cake is not gonna kill you. Guarantee it's not gonna work. Not when you've got your hamburgers Exercise chips. that's the key. hamburgers and chips. Well it's . Right? I don't want to lose it. Some diet that is! Oh bloody hell! You wanna go on a diet like me, chicken royal sandwiches at quarter past five then. Chicken royal, where d'ya get them from? Eh? Where d'ya get chicken royal sandwiches? Andy, look shut up! From the fridge. Can you pass me a towel please? Andy if you're short of dosh. Er Say! Yeah exactly! I won't give you any! Look at this,. Listen Actually I will have just don't knock it! do you think it'll be, be really bad if I had a little bit? It just goes straight on and you'll never get it off again. I'm gonna have a little bit. One bit like that. There you go. Cos my Mum made it so Yeah, that's alright then. that is not a little bit. No. No , that's, that's your slice Andy. Oh. I'm sorry Monica. That's miniature that is. That's really small that is. and have a bit of that bit. Do you think it's alright if I have a bit? Well yeah! Be alright. I told you, you wanna do some exercise. But it's not, it's not exercise Oh look at this! I'm cold! Put the heating on. No, not now. So you mean Oh God! Damn it! We're allowed to have it on in the night when I'm never fucking here! Doesn't it go off about ten? Ee! Ah ah! An An Andy, Andy, you can borrow my Ooh! Ooh! Ooh! Jesus! It was really warm outside. It's good idea actually. I might get one of them. What are they called? Fleeces. Fleece. You can buy , you can buy, you buy them really cheaply in . Nick you've got one. Yeah. Well I've got two. Get, the green ones. So did you ha Mm? You want some green ones don't you? How much are they? About, ten quid. Oh. Oh look, the mess come on. Ah ba, dub dub. So erm how long you, did Justin make it alright? So what were you doing then? So ungrateful! So bloody ungrateful! You give her a piece of cake and you get a bit of lip! Oh that was nice, thank you. I know. I know. It's brilliant! Yeah. Bloody hell! Ha. So what? Are your I'm hands cold? Get some gloves. No I'm one of them people with no bloody arms! What do you think then? It's not cold. Put your jumper on. It's not This is that cold yet. Give it I'm not , I'm not cold, I'm ill. I'm ill. Are you not well? Ah ah ah! Ah ah ah! You poor bunny! Suffering! Ah ah ah! Thank you. So you There you go. Cheers. Is that my tea? It's bloody cold and you're . Fucking hell! The freezer's going. Get some thermal underwear next time. No . Mm! Mm! Lovely! I think it's gonna get a bit funny with those trousers. That turns me on that does. Long , long johns. Mm mm! Mm mm! This is er , the spoon's here. Ba, ba ba ba . Well, you can put my name down for it, maybe at Christmas for a couple of days. That's alright. Well I ain't doing anything. No . No. As long as you open the door . It it's good ex , good experience at least. Mm. It's what? Cos basically they have these sort of kiddies all these activities and you just help you help out. I hate kids! I don't mind kids. I don't like them in a classroom since those The that Andy kept . I do not sit and do that with kids. I do not! That's a load of crap! I don't like, I, I, no, no I hate you in, I hate you er We I'll have to see where those photographs, a lot of them are here. It was at, it was at the place where the football where you got us a grant playing with those little scum. Where's this at ? No, when we had the disco at the thing. Oh those, with all the kids, yeah. Well you judged that didn't you? We did actually play football with Stuart round there. They're good fun. Ah. I did play football with them in it actually. Sending them indoors. That's just so mean isn't it . I played, I played against erm Southend. oh what was I saying? No stop laughing. But, I did actually go He was the teacher , you're not supposed to laugh. He just went go on Andy, that's disgusting! Er bu da but how did they play? No, no, he went to disgusting lengths did he? Yeah. The crutches, they were on crutches I bet he didn't do and they're going like Nicky used to do. Put Nicky in his wheelchair . Wheelchair! Wheelchair! Have you heard that one? Have you heard that one? Olly goes round, and goes round going, wheelchair! Wheelchair! Like this. I don't know why he does it. It's like the guys are all moaning, it's a bloody caring society or whatever it's meant to be. Ah we us , we used to do it at some of the erm No what, ah the priest when we had my . what,whe where does the priest go, or priests go, he's quite young, and he goes walking, he goes, have you really got S and M then? What's that? S and M? Sadomasochism. Sadomasochism . What is that? Bondage! Bondage. What? Sadomasochism. He goes, he goes I suppose you're , er you know what I'm saying. Really in a state of Leather gear and studs, you know. The stuff Kenny wears. He wears a leather and so forth. Yeah, well you haven't got a jacket. Oh dear. Got a suede jacket. Yeah, alright . He's got a horrible one that hardly ever wears. Bondage. Kenny just stands there in just a suede jacket on . Oh you're not going to be here for this joke so I, I said oh gotta let him down. Oh Nick, how come you don't have any cake?. I'm not hungry. You are always hungry. Well I'm not now. I bet you stuffed your face last night didn't you? I did actually, yeah. Aha. Quite a lot to eat last night. Oh right. Food was delicious as well. Oh well terrific. Yeah. You don't wanna, do you want me to cook tonight, I'll, I'll get something there must be something, you know. Well no, it's not really Nick cos I haven't cooked anything yet. No! Don't worry about it. Well I've just warmed in the microwave. No I mean I'm not, I wasn't gonna cook tea Who's counting ? Sorry? Yeah I noticed you were getting only got a little belly. Yeah I would actually. And you hadn't cooked. Yeah. Honest? No cos you can't, he's not chosen a yet. Oh yeah. I cooked you a meal, yeah, right. Yeah. I got boil in the bag fish tomorrow. Mm mm Lovely. mm! mm. What do wa , what do you want? This cake turns me on. What sort of things will I get? Something that's simple and quick I could get. You going that, what's are you going to, down to Paul 's twenty first? Nah. I may go there. No I wasn't gonna go. Do you know anyone? I've got too much work to do. Do you know these dangerous people? Mm? Are we gonna for a drink Andy ? Got any money? Mm. Get, how you, how you getting to to work then? I thought they were gonna ring you Well as advance? They have. They have? Yeah. And it's been Paid the rent with it. Your Mum makes nice cake. Mm. Tell her to make some more. No just tell her . She always makes me something, a cake and allsorts when I go Oh yuk! home like. Mm mm. Not long. I wish I had a cakey Mum. I'll make a cake when we're off soon sometime. Mm mm, mm mm. You could have done. We haven't got a blender But though. erm . Blender? They're lazy! Do it with your hands. She uses a food processor or something. That's what I mean. Blender's not the same. Couldn't have found it where he was. Hey? He's harmless! Yeah, yeah, yeah. Ah that was Mick said to me today erm Oh you saw him did you? No! erm Mick the stud. I think I saw his Mum and Dad. Yeah? What did you think? I sa , well I saw somebody Got long hair? Yeah. He's well I got erm long hair actually. Quite old, older than us. Mm. Yeah, he's still a bit older than us. Well we're gonna try get him to go out for a drink er one evening with that tape recorder so we're gonna record the conversation on the side of that . What of Mick? Yeah. That'll be really boring wouldn't it? Yeah. You know, he's like a chef now, I bet he comes out on tape like the chef in the Muppets. Are you sure? Gerdy, gerdy, gerdy! Gerdy, gerdy, gerdy! Oh dear. Oh . Gerdy, gerdy, doo dee doo doo dee doo dee doo . Oh. Well done. I've gotta well I recorded you alright. It was really funny, I recorded the main lecture the oth , yesterday and it was Dave who's got like a speech impediment . Oh no! Da da da, it was really funny . So I don't know what that'll come out like. You got, but you have recorded Mick though haven't you? Yeah, the other day. Yeah? He was in Yeah, you were there. he doesn't know about it though. No. I didn't know. Yeah you know that when we were, on Friday when I was in my room he came up Oh yeah. and he Mm mm! Mm mm! I've decided to erm let this go. Was it you I was telling about? Kenny er,Kenny wasn't very impressed with Mick . Mhm. Also Wasn't he? What did he think of him? Some seedy little heavy,. Thought he was very, quite shu , shuffly Thought he was the chef from the Muppets. shuffly. He does, he's so mm mm very slow isn't he? But it's hard luck I suppose. He's alright though. Sort him out. He said, I said when are you coming round to see us? And he goes, oh, he goes well whenever. I said well Andy's in tonight. He won't be round. I said, I said do you wanna go out for a drink on Wednesday? He went mm mm, nah. Him and his T G C chums there. Urgh! Urgh! Don't they like this T G C lot, you know? No, they're alright. They're really nice, but you know, I'm just like a bloody third leg or something. And Andy 's there. Oh ya. Hello . Mm mm. He went to the pub actually. He went off to the erm blooming you know , B and B thing. Who? Andy who I used to go to school with. Oh yeah. Refused to be a prefect. Cos we were in the fourth year and the upper dorm grew up Is that what you were saying the night before? Yeah. We was going Seat belt. I hope there isn't any violence at this thing. I knew it was violent, people throwing bricks and bottles and the lot. Also we was gonna do, the fucking Police just think it's shit ! Mind you, this Welsh bloke, this other other Welsh bloke Oh yeah. he was going, no, no, there won't be violence. What was this? You know the erm, the, the riots that happened Poll tax riots. no, not the poll tax, the other one, the erm Anti-Nazi League riots. Did you go? No. Talking about No , Nick was on the outside of the weren't you? What d'ya mean? Nick was with the skin heads throwing bottles out No, no. at the police. No I think the way that You read the little books wrong. . No, I just think, I just Andy, you looked deformed then! Do you like my picture of Maggie? Thank you. No, I, I I did actually. I was looking at it quite a bit cos I'm sure Liza'd whip it down. And I put some up on the page three. I don't understand though, surely a woman Prime Minister, you'd be proud? She's can be Especially since we think she's been running clear. Yeah. Apart from Churchill of course. I can't No well I, I'll give him his due old er who is it? Apart from old baby bots himself. Bottle? Baby Baby bots. His head looks like a baby's arse. Who does? Churchill? Churchill. Mm. Zich Hale You know, you know Churchill's war He was a boring bastard! Churchill's war time speeches er, he didn't actually do those ones the radio, he didn't actually do them. The man who did, Larry Lambswater actually did them. Really? Yeah. Yeah. Larry the Lamb . Larry the Lamb . Ah ah ah ah ah . That bad. Larry the Lamb . Don't you remember Larry the Lamb. Mm. You had a deprived childhood I should say. He was in Kenya. In Kenya. I was in Kenya. I was in Kenya? umbudi bwana land. What did you , have in Kenya? Um Bongo, um bongo ! We got Scooby Doo actually. Scooby dooby doo Scooby dooby doo You must have liked coloured people? Astral Ant. So do you. What do you And Shaggy , have you noticed the way Shaggy walks. There! Scooby . Have you seen the way they walk in Scooby Doo. They go . You look a bit like Sco , erm Shaggy. Shaggy . Oh cheers ! Hey,, and the mystery machine where they all wear groovy looking I used to really like Captain Caveman! Oh God! Cavey Wavey! Er we saw that Captain Caveman. With , with the three er duvets. Oh Cavey Wavey! Mm mm! And er, what was it called? Oh high you, erm Thundercats or is that Thunder, Thunder, Thunder, Thunder Cats ! Thunder, Thunder Cats ! aargh! That was good. And Duck Tales was really good. That was good isn't it? Yeah. Things like Defenders of the Earth. Oh yeah! Da dong ! and say come on then, I'll give you a game. The thing is, we saw each other What? all day. You can have rabbit, oh the Yeah. When I give you chicken No. Mhm. There's nothing in there. You can have some chili sauce and peanut butter. No it's alright. Peanut butter with chillies. They were really those . What I'm gonna do like, is erm I think I might go out, oh what do you want? Anyway, I'll go in, I wanna go down Tesco's anyway so it's erm, just really since I spoken to you really. I want I've got some noodles though. Do you wanna do some Chinese stuff? Yeah. Chinese noodles. Noodles? Yeah I got some erm, proper noodles. You didn't send any noodles. I hate to think what No I don't. looks like. Well I do. Well it's In fact I haven't, I found that cat I mean are these noodles or I've had that every time you've made a meal you've made noodles. No. No. Just cos nobody eats it, God damn it! Potato it's good for you. Yeah well your potato ! Potato. Well I don't care as long they're not Super Noodles. No, they're, they're proper Sharwoods noodles. You know, egg noo , noodles, noodles. Sharwoods. of India. I could still bring him around. Ah I don't, don't know. . Cos he called you a fat cunt,yo , it still rankles with you doesn't it? What are you talking about? Yeah, you didn't even say Yeah you . he called me a fucking cunt! You fucking cunt! Why? I dunno. Dunno. It's a mystery to, you know, we were just sitting and he walked up and he went Andy, you're a fucking cunt! Hope you And then we went,ha ah ! That's Justin ! I've never heard anything of that type actually. What could I have done to make Justin holier than thou, say anything like that? Ah, you know Justin. My God! So was he dossing yesterday? He was, indeed. He was indeed. Justin's not a dosser! I mean He dossed yesterday. You'd be surprised. He, he it was cos we had examination er, in the afternoon and he sort of Ha. been round second time then when you go out to I'm, he's probably doing, probably doing the history society at nights, showing people round so probably come around I hope. Presumably, we'll go . Or your will fall out. Yeah. I'd like to see it all actually. You should go around some time because i it I mean I know you're it's just, just like Especially to see the wide lady. you know, like you say ghosts er haunt it. Ooh hoo hoo hoo! Hoo! How do you know? Well, people have seen a ghost. You don't believe in ghosts do you? Well no, no, erm but wouldn't know if you saw one, you people only tell us but, but nobody's ever seen a ghost in there so Well what are all the stories about all They're priests, man, they're not gonna say oh yes, are they? No, they don't, there isn't, there's never been a siting of ghosts at Hill. I thought college with that, the re , the round room with the five stars is all demons and I think, I think that's a tribute. I, no, that was, that was where where erm cos it is a, it was a chapel but erm that's where old Chaucer used to keep all poetry and in his collection like he had erm cold water he said used to keep that by his side, by his bed Oh oh! Cold water eh? Cold water, yeah. It was Henry the Eighth's he was the last Catholic chamberlain actually. He got, he got ki , he got chopped off his head and then they er He, I don't put him down there. I don't the reformation was Kick them all out I say. What? Bloody Roman Catholics! Oi! They're just scum! Ooh ooh! Ooh ooh! Why don't you Good old Anglian,Anglica Anglican. Anglican church. You're not Anglican, you're Catholic. I know. But I hate Catholics. Thank you Nick. I mean, Andy. But then erm, oh! He said it. oh yeah, he also used to have this, this bell, I dunno some weirdo just Did our stuff on Islam today. It's the bells! The bells! You did what? Stuff on Islam. I Koran And he us and the . and in one of the rooms he used to have these girlie pin-ups of the dame, these portraits of all these women he used to fancy in a few years time. What? Old Horace? Old Horace. Yeah! So what about what's the thing then about the erm garden,he , the summer house and that they By the water gardens. Oh I remember that bollocks! Somebody's buried Somebody's buried under there and it keeps No! And it No. keeps breaking up. No. I heard that. Aye, the the the summer house is Victorian anyway. I know they walk about it though. Mm? Do you remember the first year when we went and everybody went and put notice in front? Yeah. You did it to me, and then Garth wrote this thing saying vixen. Why? Cos Garth thought it was really funny. And I didn't believe him one little bit. It was the same area as the . Remember that? Don't you remember that? You all put on vixen looks, or sexy stud, twenty four. What was Garth putting notes there for then? Garth. We did one for him. Ah! Then he put a note in for you. Yeah, he put, he put a note in for everybody and then he, he told me, and I said, oh yeah. And then, then he thought, hey, that's a bit compromising And then Robobird found it. Robo, no, Robobird, because that was the way you met Robobird. Who's Robobird? Simon bloody . What about Gareth? You haven't said anything. Yes! You remembered. No, no, he shagged . I do deny it! No. No. I think it Don't worry about that. No, I was thinking it was shock you actually said it actually. But No. he snogged her? No. Blow job. I got a kiss out of her once. A ki , what, just Ju , just just like this really. What a tongue kiss? No! No. Just a kiss. On the lips? Can't really remember. Tom said it was a blow job I can't remember. kiss. The dirty And how would you know about things like that Mr ? Yeah, how would you know about er that? I dunno , I just read it in the book saying what a blow job is. So you blow down her mouth? Yeah. Make a good job of it. Ooh! That's quite bitchy for me. I'm quite impressed. So I'm going down there. Yeah, I told Robo that, cos you know er Andy and that that she's . Oh they're all gonna deny it. I mean, yeah, we never knew that, my arse! No I took James and that lot in, said oh did you? Did you like her? You must have liked her? A bit, yeah. Just a bit. Yeah? Oh yeah. Oh. She's quite pretty. She's tall, as tall as you int She's she? No, she wasn't in fact. I mean she's actually Nick likes them big. Yes. Bigger girls. He doesn't mind that either . No, I just Sixty nine. Sorry? Andy, how do you know? Well I dunno what the hell cos yo I know all of them. he's, you shouldn't know You didn't know. things like that. Oh yeah, you did a biology degree. Yeah. You don't know what a sixty nine is do you? It's just a number. It's the magic number . It's the magic number . Yeah, well erm, I, I wouldn't a , ask Liza she'll tell you. Oh thanks. You're so naive Nick. I am, I am. No, I don't think I am actually. I'm sure Harvey will tell you. Oh yes! Here I, oh yes. Nobody Grass stains. Well I can imagine Nick doing wheelbarrows. No he Wheelbarrows? he sha What's that? he shagged her, he did shag her seriously. Poor Nicky. No, yeah, I know. But it's the only way I could see, see him getting those grass stains by doing wheelbarrows. No. I don't know whether it's a trait all all over Oh I the ground, I, I mean if it's a treat? Because it's a treat ? With this thick green mark at his back Oh! I thought you meant treat. I thought you said I don't know whether it's a treat you falling . No, no, I've, d'ya know I Hang on. That is a ? No, no, no I Did he ha , did he walk round with this big smile on his face? No he was shocked. He was in a state of fucking shock. And I er And, Nick asked him, that's right. I I, I I, got, I told you, I told you. I, Mick told me, I thought no you didn't. Sod you! Hello er Mick, I just gotta ask you one question. I said did he take precautions ? And he did? Blimey! And he did ! How monotonous. Yeah, I said look you can have a condom. He said he, oh I had, I had one. In other words going out and buying some sort of, he had a plastic bag full. Hey! Coffee beans. Steady now! I, I don't get the joke. Are you gonna take Mary after you got in the second year? Andy went to see Mary. It's a fair guess. Is that what happened? No? Did you not know about contraceptives? No, no, no, no, no don't worry about them. Ah no tell me now please. No. No, don't. Disgusting! Disgusting. What Nick just went disgusting? Tell me. Apparently he shagged Nicky , isn't that bad enough? Well, would you? No I wouldn't shag her. How did, how in the hell did he go out with her and Christine not know. She probably thought he, Nick was out. What did he do? What's she doing here ? I think she probably wants to leave it. Mm. I think it's frightening. I di , Nick says, I said to Nick, I said I bet something happens at the Ball with Nicky. He goes yeah I think so . Didn't seem at all then did he? No he wasn't then Well that was a bit lustful then, just lust, no love, no love lost there. Yeah. She just grabbed him and hen, then it happened. No what happened with the plastic bag? Tell me. Tell me. We shouldn't really have been, you never heard us talking to you. No! No, no, so No! oh you tell her. I'm not saying anything. No. Oh Nick, go on. Well I, I, no it's Andy's story, Andy's got it. It's not my story. Yeah, you told me that story Tell me now Andy. when I was down there. What, what? What? No the worse one is erm No , it's just petty sort of Do you sort of, I mean be truthful do you think Mick is is gay? Mm mm. Cos Nick, I remember Nick phoning us up the other day actually. Yeah, I thought he was gay actually. I don't give a shit You truthful? if he's gay or not, but lea , living with three fantastic women, who I think Yeah I know. So you wish you were Nick then? it's the other way round innit? Hey! You little bugger! Hey girls! Do you wanna live with me? Is he gay then Mick ? We, we don't know. Nick reckons he is. But what , what happened is a guy called James Yeah, Nick, Nick spreads stories that's what you're wishing for. Well Nick, Nick, Nick phoned me up and said don't tell anybody but within a week Jaz knew cos Nick had actually told Jaz. And Jaz actually said oh I heard that some bloke from your school is gay isn't he? Yeah well Jaz is spreading stories about Nick. Er about Nick. So I suppose So what has that got to do what Nick get up to? Well no Andy was best mates with Nick . No. I wasn't. And what did you get up to? Yeah but did he ever any inclination? Oh they were in the same dormitory weren't you? Yo you and him were in the upper. Yeah, and we were prefects then Nick, we had our own rooms, we weren't sleeping in the same bed or anything, you know, Ah but you know you could have just done that little trick, you know. What like you would have done Nick? No! No, I'm sorry, no, no. No way! No, no, no ! Er, no thank you. Yes. Er Nick what are you doing ? Come on, tell me about Nick. It wasn't er you er er, that Dave crept into bed with? Nah! No? It wasn't? Dave got into bed with? Oh yeah, I think Dave's No. a bit that way. No. Well wha , well what's this about Dave? No, he used to sleep walk. Dave ? Mm mm. No. And get in bed with you? No! Not the sorts, I didn't er, I've never heard that one before. One of Nick's bullshit stories. Yeah, I've never heard that one. Dave never used to sleep walk. But does Nick, That's what he says. was little Nick when , porn er, porn king ? No he wasn't. We were just saying that. He bloody was! Well he did have some, but he we , but there were other people that got caught. I've never seen so many! Well then, well Where did he used to get them from? Did he Mum know? He used to buy them. He used to buy them in Reading. He used to buy them in Reading. He used to buy them? Never used to buy them did he? I've never had the gall to go and Well no, I, I've never had the gall buy them. to buy them. Nick had the gall to go and buy them and then . Good old Nick! That's what I say. Just imagine the old women No behind the counter. He us , he used,he used to confiscate as well right? And er, he They'd keep them for themselves. Yeah. Right no he Good old Nick. he dumped, he dumped them all. At least he shows initiative. He dumped them all when the on holiday. Initiative? I could see it, the little old woman in Smiths going, I know what you're like? No , he used John Menzies from the, stations every time he goes there. He used to tell you? It's just like he's proud of it. Oh I dunno. You er Oh anything like that kind of thing. Used to get er no. I don't know what you two are moaning about? You've both got pictures of half-naked women draped around the living room, and their boobs everywhere. So, you can hardly moan about pornography. No, it's not pornography It's not pornography it's art. it's art. Oh oh. Now come on, that is not pornography. Alright. Okay then. Well as a restriction It's fun though. you have naked men on the walls, but no, but we don't care. Andy's gonna get a naked man holding . I might get in trouble for that one. Ah! Shame . So who's coming down on the eleventh or twelfth of November? Lisa . Lisa . Maybe her boyfriend, John. Is this new pig ? No. No, no, no. No. A pig? A pig. No. Erm he's aspiring to be a fireman or something . Erm maybe Gabby and Janine. Of course Gabby definitely. Oh well maybe that's why the police . And maybe Gabby and Janine. This sounds perfect. Everybody's is violent. Oh yeah, nice one. Perfect. Perfect people. Twelve inches at least. You mean you fancy one of them? I do Oh well , I'll tell you what Andy. Andy will to shag anything with a pulse as he says . I'll be safe. No you wouldn't. When he goes, I'll shag anything with a pulse . Erm, no you don't have to go about with them,Rebecca first. Cos I know why Becky's popular or not. Well Well, ooh no Yeah , but you want to vet people do you? Yes. I'll vet them for you. . Ah. Your mother's will appreciate it won't they? Oh yes. Yeah. Actually be fun. Ooh no. Can't wait for one of you two brings a woman back. Ha ha! Ha ha! Oh Nick looks like he's gonna be waiting. Yeah . You alright Andy? You tired? I'm tired. Not surprised. Got that ? No, just cos Mm mm. cos Chris off, so the apprentice girl didn't know anything. Got to meet Andy's bird. Oh. Missed a complete argument, started with . What's he doing?? Yeah, I'm doing it. I've got Mm mm. I bet this, well first of all this is going, going to Colin and saying where's my dinner? Well you nearly lost that then? No, missed, missed that again. We'll go no fucking way No! cos you won't expect it. Yeah, that's true. Jason will die. I bet the first thing she says hello lovey! Or something like that. Hello darlings ! Ah! I bet she do n't. Sh , it's been quiet. I've had no one to tell my problems to. . Ah! Tell Nick them. No. I'm bored. Mm, well I think How old's Wendy? Bastard! You swinehunt Nick! I haven't done any work this afternoon yet. Oh no! We had to do a three hour Oh God! mainly because of that. Cos it's sort of kiddies' activity, they sort of stand there with lots of different pro ,things we do with kids . Is it good? Yeah. Find the treasure? We did indeed! Yeah. But It's an easy life innit? Being on heritage. Poor thing. Probably is. Yeah, well I got an essay to write for this work now. A whole essay? A whole essay. Or, gotta get pissed. No, it's not an easy life believe me. But thing, things that you should be doing but bit too early to be start doing. But there is communications point as well. Yeah. I've got G C S E in geography. Oh ! Did you ge , ah no! You didn't do new geography did you? No! No! Yeah. Dave , he's remember that, remember that pictures of his wife and I dunno. That must be really bad. Good God! What lecturer? Eh? No. No. He was a teacher. He was Amateur Photographer of the Year for about two years running. Took pictures of his wife? No! What in uncompromising positions. Well that's what people used to say. Oh! No, no evidence. Mere gossip. Yes. Mere gossip. I see. He was quite good. This place actually makes the quite nice. It's all, it's all so eighteenth century landscape. Oh! Not that bad actually. That's alright. Yeah, I know who Yep. that is. Mm. My concentrated butter sauce that makes them so Oh no, you didn't get the butter sauce did you? Oh that's really Yeah. nice. That's horrible! Place the little bag into boiling water,the pan, bring to the boil, continue for boiling for twen , ooh, I better hurry up. Yeah. What do you want for, what do we want this evening? Shall we go in Tesco's? What do you want? What do you, what do you want? I'd like red Up, down ! well you know what and red peppers Oh! Oh! Red carrots. oh oh, oh ya . Ah um I, I had spaghetti bolognaise and er I ha , and I had this cheese thing last night. So er So er Yeah. fucking common he is ain't he . Yeah, yeah, yeah. Darling! Alright! Alright. Bon , bonsai darling. Bonsai. Bonsai. Erm I'm going to adapt my little dinner today cos Woo ooh! I have to adapt it every day. Otherwise we're wasting We ain't even got burgers in tonight. I give you One beefburger! One beefburger! One beefburger! I'll give you twenty pounds if you lose twenty six pounds and that Oh! Fourteen. I wa I won't even start Is this the new magazine diet? Oh , it's gone down now? Yeah. It started at twenty six. Ah ah! Yeah the doctor said while you're Was it in Cosmo? No. Oh! said only half a stone actually. And you know all this stuff that's complete bullshit! Ah! I get it now. Cos you only wanna lose half as much you're eating twice as much as we said? Something like that, yes. Oh erm talking about Alan on the radio, you know all this shit all about feminist age and, he asked us How much rice are you supposed to have for one person? Well I don't know. Half a cup or well I'm asking you! Andy knows, he knows what's what. Just keep the water boiling. Yes. He's a man of the world is Andy. Right. Half a cup Yeah, but I know my rice. You know your rice? I do. You do. I know my pasta as well. Oh right. Super! Oh oh oh oh . When We Bugger! Bugger, bugger. Bugger! Go on, urgh! Bugger. You're a factory mate, you're a factory lad. A what? Like when Liza dropped one of the fridges on the floor, everybody used to go Wurgh! Urgh! Hey eh! Wurgh urgh! You did, didn't you? I know I was when I worked in fruit packing, it's like someone drops an orange, Urgh urgh urgh! Ner er er ! Oh dreadful!. No we used to do it . Remember that in Kent. We, remember we used to do it at Darren. We went This Wahey hey hey! Andy. And put him straight in the . No I'm sorry but they really were like that when I went to Kent. What? Alright love! Alright! Cor blimey! Got a fat head mate. Alright ! No, gotta speak Essex. And all of the Indians in Slough say innit? Innit! It's every second word. Hello, innit! They say that, hello, innit. Seventy P please, innit? I was, innit? Actually does. You messed that up didn't you? How's that? Alright! Alright! You'd like some, innit? So easy. Naughty! Naughty, very naughty. Naughty, very is that the er remix of Ebonezer Good? No. It's so funny! Got some opera singers there going er er Ebonezer Good, Ebonezer Good . Oh it's not ? Have you heard, have you heard the duet between Bono and She's not coming? er er singing No? Have you heard that? Your Saviour. What? Have you heard that erm er Frank Sinatra and Bono have done this duet together. Is it really naff? Oh my, it's just the naffest! Some of those pieces out of those U two singles I thought were brilliant! But yo Thanks a lot. Is that Bono? Yeah. Is it crap! You should hear it, it's so funny! I've heard that somewhere before. Somebody was talking about that. It was on the radio on Sunday. Yeah. Yeah. Nicky Campbell on Sunday on the radio was talking about Nicky Campbell? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I've think I listened to that already. Mm mm. Good old Nicky. Do you, do you listen to Nicky Campbell? Eh? Do you listen to Nicky Campbell? I, I find the women are the best. The only blokes I like is Chris Tarrant he's quite good. Nicky's Campbell's a bloke. Nicky Campbell is not a bloke ! He is! Nicky Campbell? Is he a bloke? He's on Radio One in the evenings and he does he does the afternoon, he does D L T's Sunday morning slot now because he Well who are the two women? Oh erm . There aren't any women. erm ba la la la oh erm Cos they're . Oh, Carol No! Oh Carolina! Ba la ! Ba la ! Erm I, I like erm I love that erm thing erm boom shack a You're coming out! la . It's good. Boom shack a la? Boom shack a la! cook about twenty minutes. Ya ee girl,shack a la! Have you heard that one before? Well I'm not a big fan of Apache Indian. Oh it's well that's actually Reggae. Apache Indian Where's ? Don't ask me. Yeah. Not me. Not me. I know who it was. Could it have been Liza? Yeah. Yeah it was Liza. God damn woman! Tesco's? Oh God! I'm gonna miss Neighbours! The end of . Unless you want ten pounds? I'll turn it off alright? Tell us what happened to the ? Ooh! Oh! That's what I saw that! You may watch it in my room on my Really? twenty one inch F M, T T V I borrowed, I borrowed it to watch EastEnders last night. Gotta be very good. Recorded that. Just that I haven't been Mark . Ya. You know why cos, shit I'm not having that. That's the sauce though. Surely you need Why? to be doing some exercises you know, to Yeah. Probably wondered why the last two anniversaries was when I was in college. And sweet corn. You don't care? I'm not I've not shagged any one for two years so you said that You don't do that Nick do you? Well I just heard it on the radio, we're all I don't really know. Just a slapper she is. Ooh ooh! Cher? Cher, yeah. Fucking slapper! Slapper. Ha! Slapper. Yeah. Slapper. Slaphead. Oh whatever! She's one of those. Are you going to Tesco's? Yeah. Yeah. See you later! Bye-bye. to Paris and you know, erm the artwork's really effective I mean I completely buggered up my dinner! Sorry? I messed up my dinner. Oh God! Oh. Oh my God! My rice. My rice is burnt. Alright. I daren't put any more water in . Just stick to the one . Yeah. Alright? Bloody hell! What happened to the rice? Dunno. I kept putting more water in and it got so full. Don't know. That was filled Do you want this? with water. No, I didn't know. Oh. Is this the ring for the rice? Yeah, I just dumped it all. I just put all together. I don't know. Well yeah, you cooked it too much. Doesn't matter. That's why it smells awful. Guess this will have to do. Oh oh. That's , I dunno why, I hate rice because it if you cook it too much it smells like it's come out of a a Mm. a sewer. Oh well. Right. Well I Can I get can I get on there with . I'll be, I'll be finishing. I'll just wash these things up while I'm here. No, no, we're having tomato, onion and mixed herbs, sauce with minced beef it's not the lean stuff, it's just the really cheap stuff really. I'm not bothered. Cheapest stuff they got. Ah ah! I've got really bad acid. Acid ! We got some cake. Mhm. It's good. Trumpton Oh hate Oh that. Ya. Five, four Trumpton. Trumpton! How d'ya cook ? And the essentials for a week. You know. What did you buy Andy? Have to get that special savoury rice. Ooh pardon! No. Did you cheap, I'm looking for a job in there. Oh well I know you've just started. I might work something out when Liza comes home. Yeah let's go on that. Work there so we can all be dead. I found that I was spending money every day. Well it's true. Shall we do the pizza? Yeah. What? At least, properly, but I I mean, I'm buying nearly ev , nearly every day cos I don't you know, shop every week, beginning of the week which I should do. I suppose. Cos then it'll be cheaper. Like, I shouldn't have bought that book so I spent nearly, I could spend ten quid a week easily. Well I Yeah, but you're loaded. Ten quid means nothing to you. No it doesn't. Absolutely nothing! Have all the saucepans been used? Yeah, I'm just gonna wash them. Hang on. Well I've gotta find the er doo doo, doo dee doo . ! You can see if you can do the garlic bread Andy, Andy now. What? You can do the garlic bread. Oh blimey! Oh oh, oh oh. Oh you've gotta be kidding? This is like . the chef can't even make garlic butter on a slice of toast. Oh. Still got your migraine? Yeah. Crunchy nuts! I don't know how to do it. What? Garlic bread? Yeah, well I Taste. mean I usually like, you know, french bread bit of foil Yeah. Got any foil? You can't use foil on this bread anyway. Yeah. Ah. Only I could so much. So er once you put the butter on and then it toast it, yeah? Mm. Put the butter and stick it under the grill. Mm. And let it soak in. What, and I let the bread go a bit toasted first then Yeah. put it on? Oh it I don't think you actually gotta cook the things. Ah yeah. Well, well . come on tell us, where you going? I'm just gonna wash these up if you feel that way. I'll just the wash the in here. Okay. , doo doo, doo doo. Doo doo doo doo doo doo . Where did I put the Here. I will wash up. I can't see the Your mountain of things . Oh dear. Diet, did somebody say diet? Well, I'm just taking things that are bad for me. Oh it's not really a diet then? And I No. thought More health conscious than er I'm eating lots more fruit and I love fish, I love fish as well. Mm, well I haven't had fish for a long time. Oh! How do they manage to sell so much fish? I don't think anybody really likes fish. How much was a ? My Mum does. It's three ten isn't it, didn't you say? Three fifty. No, you got a Course your parents always like fish, but I think they're just lying. They're lucky Rose used to say. How man saucepans do you need They just say they like it. Nick? Mm? How many saucepans do you need? Five . Er, just the one. Just one? Right I can't do them now cos my potatoes. Ju , I'll just have that one. No, no, no. That's not playing. Oh! Er . Andy said he'll do it. I'll do it. Well if you do it now, but I'll clear up when you've finished yeah? Oh well. This'll take a while to brown anyway. The bottom's all stuck! Oh my God! . Just want one for your pasta, yeah? Pasty? Are we having pasties? No! We're not. What are you having? Da da da ! What about I do the mince piece after him. Want me to make you one? Cos I can't breathe. You can ask for that. Well I feel like . Meat, meat is fifty P fifty six P. Fifty two. Fifty two P. Cost nothing cos there was no way I That was sixty five. . And er You take pound coins. Ba ba, boo boo boo . Well I'll chuck in a bit more, I'll chuck in a little bit more pepper. I'll wash up, we'll wash up later, but I'm just making my dinner so Yeah, just leave it, you know. Leave it. Just like that. Yep. I . Doo doo doo doo, doo doo doo doo doo doo . The garlic bread is ready. I could, I could, I could just chuck a saucepan here couldn't I? What? Yeah. I suppose so. Yeah, just chuck the saucepan. How you gonna do it though, cos I saw Cath doing it the week before and Cath oh yeah she did. You just chuck it all in. Oh! Very nice. Then just boil it. So you have to put some water in there, yeah? Nick, I'll be up in my room. Yeah. Don't worry Can I it's alright, cos I wanna get See ya. Erm you just put Yep. the water I would stick it in now. boil it. You've gotta put milk in it, it's gotta have three quarters of a pint of milk. Blimey! That'll curdle won't it? No! No? How do these things, does it turn into sauce? It's got sauce in it? He's getting it all over! Yes boss. This is the chef who try and burn the rice. Half six it started. Tell you what, I keep going Hold up. That's alright. If you wanna lo , if you wanna lose some go just go swimming or do something Well this is healthier eating. energetic. Yeah, well go and get healthier generally. Just don't That's why she's on a diet! Cos she doesn't Or then ju want to go swimming. What's he like? Stupid git! Greasy. It is, it's cos it's all fat and butter. Use that, use that dried semi-skimmed though. Right. No. Who buys full fat milk? Beg your pardon? Me. Yeah. Do you? Mm. I don't like skimmed. That's just a disgrace . Shut up! You can't have mine in tea and coffee. I notice if someone gives me full cream like in cereal and I just think, I won't eat. Otherwise you don't notice it. No. But that is dreadful skimmed milk. Makes me sick. Oh it tastes alright. That looks healthy. It's gone. It's got bones in it. That's why I Oh aye. don't like fish, it's got bones in. My ratatouille. It's not really ratatouille is it? Yes it is. It's all good vegetables for you. I'll make the veg if want though. No it's alright. Looking at everything,a eating and dried apricots, prunes and I'm just going so you eat it and as much as it's Which is target in the bathroom? Now you want me to do in here? Do you think I should do it here or just put it Yeah just in the saucepan? No, just bung it in there. Oh I dunno actually, will it fit? Yeah, it will. I mean, three quarters of a pint, I mean will fit in here. Bung it in then. Try draining Dunno. some of the and is it, is it the lean, lean mince please? Doesn't matter. It's supposed to be in there, and th , that'll keep the pasta apart. As Kenny will tell you to put some olive oil in your pasta. Yeah. As we do. Yeah, that's it. Oddly enough, it's working. Well he knows everything. Ah? Knows everything . Who? And he does. Well , he's good like him. No . He's God! I think this bread turned a bit late actually. Kenny sa I know , you got a lot more than I need and look at me. Mm. Lying corpse in blood . Really? Will you wash up for me tomorrow? Yeah, course I will. You sure? Yeah. Shut the door! Yeah. Ooh Mone, before you do open the back door. Well I'll just well it can't be helped any more. Pardon? What's in that? Have a look in your sandwiches. Mm. Fortune! Where's today's paper then? It's in there! . It's not! Where? Under the walkman. Ya. What you doing dad? It's still quite warm. No, he's not washing up for you. Mm? But you don't take that . Pardon? Did you take that one? Yeah, but it wasn't me. Mine's there! Yeah. I've had a bit out of mine. What time is it? Twenty to eleven. What's that? What's that? I think, hang on! What's that? My prisoner. Oh well you've seen it anyway so I won't put it on. Pardon? You've seen it. I don't wanna watch it. I'm not! I wanna listen to er Ten past eleven Prisoner Cell Block H. No, that's on at ten eleven No it's not! Look under T V S! That's alright then. Sorry! D'you see? Oh I thought it was erm D'you want me to get it for you? No. I'll get it myself. Mm? It's alright, no. Financial Press, dad. Oh God, no! Oh I can't be bothered to send, how much waste is that? Don't, get them when he's still asleep. Her long hair there! I won't be a minute boy! Well I had six lamb chops they were only little baby chump chops, I think you'll probably Well you only get get more off a shoulder. Yeah , only get more small chops anyway don't you from that? I have left you one. Oh. They're still yesterdays. Oh. They're the ones that you left for me. Aha. Ain't bad going is it? Erm there was four pork chops there two gammon steaks, and I thought I don't want two gammon steaks we've already got gammon in the freezer erm Have we? Yeah, they gotta come out the freezer cos they're for tomorrow. Erm little bit of boiling ham, about that by about that and I thought no I'm not having that. It's only really good for sandwiches! Chicken portions. Well I must admit you was what? Thirty, forty? Fourth. Fourth, and you didn't, I mean you didn't seem to have a lot to pick from. The butcher ain't giving you that much . Didn't have that much to pick from. No! And there was not a lot unless the people had had three bits of beef. If they've had three bits of beef then there would have been. No chickens? Yes. There was two chickens left there. I didn't want a chicken. Well why should when there's a shoulder of lamb. Yeah! I thought the shoulder of lamb would be much nicer and it looked nice and fresh! Who else was down there? Your dad had a game of snooker with ah,la la la la Albert. Mm. Roddy. Colin. Norman. Brian. There was six of them? Pardon? No! But dad had a game with Albert. Less coffee powder in there. No you gotta I'll show you how to do it. Come here! Okay. You got, cor! I know. You don't know! I do! That must of mixed in. But it was quite a nice night. Oh yeah? Perhaps . Yeah. Not too expensive. It was not bad at all. Which one's mine Dave? Think it's that one isn't it? Yeah. That's the one. Simmone you meant to write it in pencil. I'm not. Pardon? . Just just looks like it to you. Have you used up the first side then? Yeah. Have you? Yeah. Who did you interview then? Be Benjamin. When? Last night. Well it can't be the whole of the first side! No David it goes at the back. Hey? Job information hardly any people went to the there. People said the first things . You haven't! Yes, I went to we . And he's got a lovely Geordie accent ! Yeah. ! Speak! You haven't spoken have you? Speak! Speak! Got it on ? Speak! Speak! No, speak! Speak! And again! Speak! Speak! Speak! Louder! Speak! Again! Oh! Again! Speak! Speak! What shall I put down onto that ? Are you putting this on tomorrow or not? No. Tomorrow. Cos I shall have more to go in it tomorrow. Yeah, but you go into tomorrow. Where? Behind the college . What time? Half five. In the afternoon? Mm. Mm. Who's gonna bring you home? Don't know. Will Pat? Don't know. I'm gonna ring Maria in the morning. Mm. She usually . Well if nobody can bring you home then you phone here alright? Yeah. What time do you think it'll end though? Four? Four four, usually four and half hours to . You will? I see Robin's had his hair cut. Has he? Mm. You can always tell when the clippers have been up the back of the neck. Can't you Dave? It's a drag. And Colin had his done about the same time. time? Who said so? Oh! No you haven't. No I haven't. Oh! God it's possible we had one. I think we've paid the gas bill haven't we? Yeah, I did didn't I? Yeah. Mm mm mm mm mm. Doo da doo doo doo doo doo Ooh! da, doo doo doo . Mm. Did they sell Five Alive in Yeah. in Tesco? It's nice strong . That and . Like a sort of Five Alive. ? I Can't afford credit . This was best before January nineteen ninety three, is the tin not a best before? I'll have a look. Should have. Whereabouts would it be mum? May ninety three it's got on here. You want some food? May ninety three. Move over then . Coffee cup's lifted on in the wrong place can it? Right! Your school ju , your school jumper ought to be cleaned didn't it? Yeah. I'm gonna keep it too. Alright? Let's do it all now then. How many this morning? No I know, but I'll do it now. They are coupons so I'll cut those out over here. Fed up of seeing a box of ! Pardon? Fed up of seeing a box of if I collected those tins and put them Back door open or not? Yeah, shut this middle one cos of the dog. He's alright! He's not! He'll be out like a light ! This it? Has that got a mug in it? We can bin Yeah. that can't we? Oh! No, I don't . It's got to dad on it. I like the box. Oh Simmone! It's useful! You told me to throw it away before but I kept it to put that other mug in it. That's alright we'll we'll bin this one. no. Go on! Sling it in the bin, please! What time is somebody coming for you? Only when someone's next, at quarter to erm one. Get your school stuff i Yep! in in the washing machine now. Look. Er will you remind me I've got my badges up ? Up there. Yeah. Thank you . Will I close to heaven . Is it, is there any more tea in that pot? Yeah. That's why we've left our mugs out. Yeah, mine's on those the mug . my school uniform in the bin. In the bin? Yeah. The wheely bin. The front door. What d'you want to do with this then? I don't mind. Oh well shouldn't it be Ooh! I think I've just gotta go to the toilet first. Mm! I didn't get dad any crisps did I? No. Has he got some in then? He should have cos he hasn't been eating . Mind you, I don't know what he's taking to work today cos we haven't got any bread. No. Mm. Well we've got enough in there for next week. Chocolate biscuits we'll Yeah. need. Get his short his nose out the ! D'you want some Winalot? He'd better make his milk and water last! I didn't have time to feed . Mind ! Here are ! Have you got your P E kit in that washing machine? No, I put it in before the Yeah. What? Yeah. Okay. to have tea. You'll have to take some washing out. Yeah. What d'you reckon he was then? Erm ? I've gotta get ready in a minute. Yep! And I've got work to do in a minute. Want to wash my hair. What before you go out? Yeah. Ooh Simmone! Oh, it'll dry in time. Oh it's manky! It's not that bad love! When did I last wash it? You'd be better off to wash it tomorrow morning. I'll wash it tomorrow anyway cos I've got ho curl it tomorrow. Well I wouldn't wash it today then. But it nee needs a wash today. Erm Mm mm. You've shut the door to . Don't worry! Erm I don't think playing, we'll have a game of cards do you? Yeah. Pardon? You do? Well the dog's eating his food. He's got a good hand! Pardon? He's got a good hand! It's ! It's not bad Simmone! Look! Give over! I don't really want to leave that like Ee that on there. What one? That one. Really fair to say you might think of another one. I'll try. No good! I know I should forecast better than that. Doesn't matter. Doesn't matter does it? No. Have you got four? Yes. Right. Hang on a minute!and one, another one. Perhaps you did. right there. What's that? And another one! Only, my God! D'you want another one? No I don't need another one. Tell you what you want Hooh! Is that three? Or two? Two. Two. The other one's our last one there. I've got two queens. That's it. Two kings. And a third king. Go on then, pick them up! Oh Simmone! It's not fair! Got three of them! Do you want three? You haven't have you? Yep! Oh yuck! I've got a handful of rubbish! What's new? Exactly! Three of them. There is four fives. This actually doesn't taste bad with does it? No. It's very good! What you put, the three down there? I thinks. Would you believe that that's Yes! Yes! Three fours. Eight. Right! That's four of those. So is it me? That's four eights is it? Mm. Thank you very much! Two sixes. Three sevens. Three sevens. Let's pull that thing out. Ha ! It's quite down. Looking at three queens. I think I'll le , leave them there. Oh no! I can stick them up can't I, with No! the why can't I use one of those? Cos you haven't got them in your hand. I had all four of them! Oh! It's your go. So I'll lay that one. Four there. Yep! .Mm mm! Thank you! God! Lay ! Thank you! Got all Could have been the eights. Could of been them. Oh! That was a good game! For us! D'you see, I hope this alright? I think it looks lovely! Yeah, but d'you think they'll be able to see it? If you know what I mean? Cos it's meant to say what we are. So they'll give them from table to table. Yes I would think so. D'you think they'll be able to keep them? Course they will! I think you've done it lovely! Is it thinking day then? Mm. Why do you always have it, er have it after school? It's a bit strange isn't it? Don't always, last year I had it on the . What in Broadstone? Mm. It must be a day thinking that we had a . Yeah it was wasn't it? Mm. Only it seems a long way to go! I know, but it's the Poole West Revision. Ah! So it's So it is really, it's not You know, it's not just for No, a lot of them are Poole then are they? Yeah. If I've got four of something can I throw them away now? Yeah , course you can. Four fours. Oh lovely! I haven't got any fives. What? I have! What? You got any fives? Oh no! Well you go first. Right. What did that I need another one! Five. Cat. Here we go. Wait a minute! I need another one! Oh dear! An ace! Pick them up. Ha! Thank you very much! With pleasure madam! With pleasure! I think I would have had, scrunched them altogether now. Might just as well put those three down there hadn't I? Then I can get rid of them. And I want to Mm. Hopefully! Ooh dear! Course, you got rid of the fours didn't you? Five. Six. Three sevens. That's where I got the other one of that. Oh you're not Two eights. I got the other two. Okay. Two nines. No I ain't got that one there. No, I need a Dear oh dear! Come on! No you didn't, that was Oh never mind! three queens. An ace. Oh that's horrible! A six. An e , an easy one. Have I got the other one? Four double eight is what you wanted. Mm? Four double eight cos we've got . Mm! You should have used them both together shouldn't you? I should have done shouldn't I? Should do. Got two eights here. Clear that down. Here's the nine you had in there. Oh dear! Oh no you yours!. What's the time? Eleven forty three by the microwave's clock. Go and have a look at the other one. Ya . Go and . Mm. People like, like Matthew do the job the properly . Ah, so I've got to attach that. Yes. You've got to attach what? One, two Don't you think it'll be a little bit of a waste? You won't need it on all the time will you? No, not all the time but it's just that you know I'm talking to I mean they co there's, cos Yeah. I mean those gaps in between, but we're not with Yes that the Brownies all the time. You're not? Not with Brownie pack. Ah! E , each Brownie pack goes onto a different table you see. I see! Because really, when the Brownies are out it won't really be worth recording it. Thank you very much! Did you shuffle? Yeah. The is all people like to say. Was it? His ex came! What his ex-wife? Yeah. Or ex-girlfriend or what? Ex-wife. Tiffany the daughter Mm. and erm she had right go at Tessa cos I see them together sometimes. Well never having watched it I don't really Did dad phone? Yes. Ha! This is awful! What? Three, four, fives. What's that? Oh well stick them on there. Shall I take those? No not yet. Oh! I'll wait till I've used them er . Lucky aren't you? Yeah. Oh dear ! Ha ha er! Mum. Pardon? Pay the ten pence . Take those. That money should have stayed quite . Four. And those. Seven. And that one. And we'll have that one. Na na na na ! One. Oh dear! What a recognised voice! Erm Ooh! There he is! Oh! Two queens! Snap! Hoo hoo hoo! Hoo hoo hoo hoo! Er No! Come along! It's not a king is it? No! Oh my God! Slowly . I'm not! I could be! Ah ah mother! Copiously eclastic! Oh dear! Think about that. Oh sh , I do it off a . Thank you very, very much! Look I had two tens ! Come on Heidi, you slut! Come on! I've never seen Heidi lost for words before! Oh you there! I did, I spoke Oh we all know that! I bet he thought you were kidding! She was on about erm boy, there's this younger person she went to bed with! What was it a boy? It was a girl! believe you! She She went out with him maybe she was a girl ! She said I know her, she's my secret lover ! Got that on , on here somewhere and all! Where are the Brownies? Mm. Bye! Mm. Oh no you're flipping joking! Catherine, have you seen our mother ? No. Oh God! What a ! Alright! Oh good! Och aye! They're going back the other way. Oh not again! I can see them! That's them over there! Put a Can't she get in from down there? Come on titch! Oh your one to talk! Five foot nothing ! Oh what! Oh no five foot, sorry! Got that wrong, three foot nothing ! Where's my mummy! Get up ! Look, she's probably out most of would get in. Yeah, that's what I thought but she'd walk down there. Ah ! I thought we should have walked down and try and find her. Where? Where? Where ? There. Over here! Where ? I'm sure I've seen her . Oh oh oh! You! You! Well what can I say I've said all the words on this so far. Fucking ! That's it! There you are! Haven't had that before ! Fucking it's not in the ! It is! What we tal I'm nothing but! Nothing but? Eating raw, pukey pasta! You weren't supposed to eat it Heidi! That was chopsticks. Your as boring as they are! What as? Well you have to do this naff thing! But we didn't clean our chalets so that nobody could stay in! You what? I had a singing day one! We had two people singing! Okay , it's thinking day! there's one in the floor and all the kids wanted to go out to see mummy and so anyway Neil had to sing or naff sing, hey hey it's thinking day! You can do, it's thinking in Germany! Germany. It's thinking day. Japan it's thinking day. In Norway it's thinking day as well, except for Switzerland! Why didn't I come down that other road? Ooh! Lucy . But you don't like her. It! Stop giggling ! Oh it's . Oh bother ! We went down Poole and there was these guides. Yeah, but what are they doing? They got clip boards! Are we gonna be accosted by Guides? But well they're obviously doing something different for thinking day in this country. I presume it was In Poole? Poole East? How embarrassing going in there! Yeah, cos we're Poole West aren't we? They must be so embarrassed! And they were doing a tally of people going in and out of Marks and Spencers! Were they? Mm. Don't ask me why! Gee! Well! I never found out that one. person gonna go They were what? Alright! Gotta let them come in! What are they doing it for? I don't know! I didn't ask them! They're just tough! No, it might not have been counting when I think of it, cos it'd be one guide coming out. Yeah, but what on earth were they doing sat in their Guide uniform at the very least! Yeah! Erm I'll go in Marks and Spencers! All the round the exits and entrance as well. Why? Er, I don't know! Perhaps making sure the same number of people came out as went in! I don't know ! Well what on earth were they doing? I don't know what they were doing! They must have had But they were making a tally, they got little things, you know, like . And they had their uniform on? Mind you, they didn't have the sense to do one, two, three, four, five, they were just doing lots of lines, so they got about Oh I see! three hundred and ninety two lines to count! But there you go! What were they on! I'm sorry but Weird! Well sort of went in and said oh, guides with clipboards here! D'you think they've walked round from Hamworth I said no, it can't be them! It must be somebody else. Cos they're Must be som far too busy going round the world or whatever! Didn't you go round the world last year? No. Yeah, we always do and get And that was just birthday No! out here bored and weren't it? Did you see me last year ? See that cheerleading thing! Oh yes ! So funny! I remember. It was It was you doing the games were you? Erm,ye ye ish. You were a guide were you? With your guide company. There was a young leader on our one. Yes, that's why. So there's more of chance of winning ! Because only we, when the young leader that's why! It's the wrong one, she's just How much? they're using as a spoon! What, you mean they're only to be young leaders there. Well no, but everybody was helping their Oh right! collection you see, and Heidi and us two just wanna go. Mm. Well it was our thing weren't it? Yeah. We were there, see and then came up. So, what was that, what was Mrs doing? I dunno, never got to see her. They were book marks and writing on the canal. So, did you, should you have really have been helping them? No, cos I was doing No,th there was loads of them! They had whatsername, the Chinky, whatsername? Yvonne, and Helen Dunno. and Catherine, all Yeah. of them. All of them. And Mrs And they were okay? Mm. Christ! Gotta get this organized then. Mind you she hundreds of her Brownies there. We had five? Yeah. Yeah, five. Then we just sat and looked There must been about nineteen. on this diary. Really? Yeah. Oh really! Yeah, cos they're just friends. Mm. I wonder if she fancies him. So she doesn't get the whip the same way Yeah. as Mrs . Well on Thursday it's er Mrs , we're watching videos, including the video of the Christmas parade. Oh that should be Oh! great fun! Absolutely ! Yeah. Apparently we're on it quite a lot! We have to think yourself ! It means we'll actually get to see some of it. You still get to see what you look I know! like. Oh no! Oh no, cos, no Alison Looks really funny! recorded it and then Claire and Sue yeah, her and somebody were watching round at her house Mm. and they go that's Heidi! I'm almost died Yeah. ! They were telling me, a month ago, were you in the Christmas parade to be an old granny? Cos they videoed it Yeah. and they didn't know I was there. Oh well that sounds fun! Charlotte, what were you Charlotte? A green thing. gate thing. Wizard or, oh yeah! A gate thing there weren't it? Oh I was so embarrassed! Because, you know! It was embarrassing in the first place. It was a long way down this road, I was right. Yeah. Yeah, I go to Mrs , erm can we fish , sharing lists I ga , you know, I think it'll be easier if we did it in twos, and Becky goes why? Cos it's gonna be a bit of squash innit, for us? And then Becky says, well who else is going? Well I think really, it's gonna be difficult for four people going out there with You can't take it with four! all that! You can't! So Dougy and Karen are going out . Yeah, and I'll be the clarinet and a oh!. I don't know. I don't think, she's very flat. With two violins and a guitar and all our stuff anyway, that'll be enough! I don't see . I can just see him tonight. The trouble is, when you've got your violin it means you never get a chance, you know, if they say well we're going to prepare however, well she can . She always gets to do the music because you know, like she did at that er Yeah. that Guide thing. That was really lovely! Absolutely beautiful! It was late and she'd given, they were coming out when I got round there! Mm. I mean really! She could get some words from her dad. But we, we all thought of it you know. Yeah. Would he mind doing it for you, Mark? Well when they came to, doing The Railway about two years ago, well I think he was very Was he? lyrical! Yes! It was all Dorset words, I mean that was really be beautiful! Yeah. Wasn't it? Mm. Cos I don't know anybody that knows more Dorset words than your No, that's it! dad would know. I thought about Robbie, cos Robbie is quite Dorset and he's quite broad. Yeah. And then I thought about Mark. Mark's quite Dorset as well! Go on say I'm a Swede! Get your tea. basher, swede basher! You were Dorset weren't you? you were in Dorset wasn't you? No! Mary's like me though, she hasn't really got anything has she. You haven't really got a Dorset accent have you? No but you're Dorset as well! Yeah! Born and bred, through and through. Do you think that I'm mine's more broad than Mary's? Ooh yes! Ever so! Ever so! But my mum was London now, she never had a London accent. But my dad was Dorset, through Mm. and through. Oh they say he was broad! Oh right! Mm. I'm from . I suppose it seems, mine's probably still there now My dad was Stamford because of dad, and mum. Yep. Oh from Stamford I think dad , I'm not sure whether he, no he wasn't born in Stamford he was born in King's Street where I lived Oh, as a little girl? when I was little. Yeah. But, now with Stamford you can feel that they were Litchet way, I think. Yeah. Cos she used to work for Green Leaves was it? She was in service till Oh yeah! as a little girl. Yeah. And then she used to take in all her washings , her babies was growing up. But you've got more of an accent now,a bit more country or it's got Yes, I was just gonna say the somewhere near ? near Bournemouth. But Mm. I can remember Carole my father used to ah!now and That's lovely! Mm. That is lovely! If you could get two of them together Yeah. and Mr when he cutting your dad's hair. Oh no! I mean that would be absolutely fantastic! . Wouldn't it? What was you saying last Wednesday? That would be a real bonus! That was a haircut as well ain't he? Yeah, he went to Colin's as well. They both look the same style Cor! I said, oh you've got a new style this month then? Yeah ! I think, she got one right hook ! She did! No ! He had to cut his right up. Colin's didn't look too bad cos Colin told him to leave him a bit longer now. He said to me, now look on the calendar when he came. Have you got that thing on ? What's he go, about every six weeks? Is it still going? That's without the laxatives! It's still going. What? That's without the laxatives! the bottom. How often does he go round to see your dad, Mark? Well, he swears it's every four weeks, but you say to him ooh, you know you been alright Paul? Yes. Why? Oh he hasn't been round you know. Yes I did. Well where's the ? Yeah. Not every four weeks. Ah! But he's now. He can't stand it with the weather being bad. Not really, but he's, how old is he? Well he's He's about the same age as ain't he? Yeah, he'd need to be wouldn't he? Gotta be, ain't he? Gotta be! tonight. Are you? Gotta move out. Ha! Thank goodness for that! Here! Here! Here! Alright ! Hello , you alright? Yes! Hello Sylvie! How are you love? Yeah! I'm alright, are you? Alright, you? Hi! Where are you hiding? Yeah. I've only lost one, I've lost on . I had to nibble the chocolate I've just got to have it. Is it this one? Yeah, throw it over , er over there Sylve somewhere. Poor Bill !all day looking for him at home. Oh is it? Yeah , it's been on all the time isn't it? Yeah. I don't think my customer's although you'll probably hear all the bits in between. And been here before so he probably thinks they're alright. Oh when you've had your dinner. Oh yeah! I mean I bet it's just bored isn't it? Yeah , it is, isn't it? But, I hope you made something. Isn't it lovely today? Beautiful day! Yeah, it's very nice. In fact, really, you just wanna thought about going home. I've mowed the lawn, that'll make it grow! And I've been mowing the lawn. Have you mowed it? Yeah! Is it ? Yeah! We're the last, one of the last ones in our road! I was gonna say, only we are the top up the road Won't your frost kill it off? mowed his about two weeks ago! Oh yeah! Cos I was thinking about getting out there and I thought no I won't in case the frost comes on and Ours was so Yeah! Don't untidy! think it hurts it. look the about a Definitely! quarter is it? They Definitely strong innit? I mean it's good for it isn't it, really? Do you spray the same spray with it? I think it's a local gardener, or someone went to the filled up all the turf and took it all out. Yes, I heard. Oh no! And that that's happened before, I've heard I heard that last night. that before. Someone's got a beautiful lawn then! Yes we have. It's very nice! And the Corgis like it too. I think, we have got all these seeds though in the greenhouse, and they're coming up a treat! Are they? We got broad beans up Come up, rather already. coincidentally. The whole thing Yeah. Our broad beans are like that! He covers them up with sheets of plastic. Yeah. Does he? Helps helps us to keep them warm at night. to your greenhouse. Don't you object Eileen? What? When he puts you in a sheet of plastic. No ! Oh! We had Dave's mum up today. Oh did you? She's lovely! How is she? She's not too bad. Not too bad at all. A lot better than she was that holiday? Oh yeah! Yeah, I think so. She didn't wanna go back. Mm. It's always the problem. She, never wants to go back, but she really did enjoy herself! It's the first time she's been out of there since. Oh is it? Yeah. She went in there the end of September, so she's had October, November, December, January That's right! Feb , five months. She's been in there. Has she not been to her daughter's? Nope! She was gonna go up there Christmas day and she fell Christmas Eve wasn't it Mon? Christmas morning. Yeah, Christmas morning Mm. got a big gash down her leg Oh that's right, you mentioned so she never went. about that. And since then nobody's ever offered. So we said to her last week Dave and I talked it over and, I didn't realize he was gonna spring it quite as soon as that, but he did, and everything went alright so, I said, well we'll try her for tea, a couple a hours didn't we Mon? Yeah. So we picked her up at about twenty to three and we took her back there at quarter to eight? Yeah, and she's Did you have a power cut? Yes. I will look forward to Oh my God! and of course was there. of all the days I've gotta have a power cut as well! what time was that? Three o'clock to five o'clock someone was saying. About twenty to three it went off. We all sat round the van , the caravan about quarter to four and she'd just got one, she'd got one of her friends and they got theirs about quarter to four. Well ours didn't go off Quarter to five. cos we had the telly on. No I They reckon it was all of Dawstone all of Corfe Mullen. We weren't off. Cos I rang them up. You weren't off? No. No. Must have pinpointed your system. I could have gone round to couldn't I? In my jumper couldn't I? Oh dear! Not with ! I could have . Yeah ! I would have brought No! my own iron. Yeah ! I could have done that. Left it on the front doorstep ! Oh weren't they greedy on the village, today? Well I think see now, that's because their paper Did they have it all? They read it out of the horoscope. No! No. So it's most important. But it they read that off Bet three hundred something odd pound and they What and lost it? and quite, no surprises! That's what happened last week! How much did it cost them? Yeah. They had quite a lot of money last week. Did you hear them say about the horoscopes? Waiting for this programme and erm when the husband, her partner went home they'd been to see this , I don't know quite what happened Mm. She said, I can't believe what it says in the paper any more Mm. last week in a T V programme. But they we , quite convinced they were gonna win and I think this is what was behind it. Yes, oh I didn't hear that much. So he bought the cutting with him and said they couldn't it. What, so they obviously believe in their horoscopes? Mm. Yeah, cos you can read into it what you want these things re , can't you Yeah. really? Well I think she felt, as they went I was sitting reading all about horoscopes but they did win. Mm. But they just got greedy. Yeah. Yeah. Mm. Turn that off for a minute. No! Turn it off a minute I got a joke. I'm . Turn it off! You Norma couldn't get it and her voice was getting louder, and louder, and louder! I sat down here Tuesday night and she was going, what she's saying? Something what? And it was going louder and louder and louder! And then we had to tell her in the end! Can you be quiet ! Oh oh! Everybody else was in raptures! And I thought, oh not Norma. It does though I know that that programme that's all being recorded there's a funny atmosphere. See you might even be starting up the classes. Oh I know! But then, she probably might not. The Camon it's called the Camomile Camomile Lawn. Oh Oh! that sounds lovely! Yeah, they've had it excerpts of it on television haven't they? Well, Di saw it and recorded it didn't they? Yeah, I mean the the film was quite long though Mm. wasn't it? Yeah. With erm oh! Felicity Ke That's it! Kendal. Yeah. Yes. And she says she's got Yeah. Cos she was smoking like Yeah. a trooper too wasn't she? Soon as they did their words there's like a another fag! Not,she sounded like ! Oh Robin, you have had a short cut this time! Oh he's weird he is, you know, isn't he? Anyway, Robin had rushed himself and I think Robin wanted to get out early and Colin was probably going first I'm busy now , thank God! Yeah, but then he weren't at Colin's, and he said no, you go first and when he'd finished Robin's, he said, I don't want it as short as that! He went quite spare! And it's what you call an economy one, you know! Oh is it? Yeah ! We've got to take our holidays before the end of March, so What did said went wrong? Oh well when I got up there of course you just He just came up, he came here went strai he out there to see him. And I mean there was hair on the tables, you know where he'd been Oh! or and apparently he'd lost a strip. When's he going to take a lot of this then? Wednesday. Wednesday, it must have Thursday, well he sat in the store as they called him . Mm. Mm. It was a good idea! It was Mm. yeah. The only thing is, the went in the back of it! Yeah, I'll tell you something too He dropped something, a screw or something, he went all over the, the floors! He's a fruit case really isn't he? Oh no! Him and his dad! He left our dad's at half past ten. What, at night? Yeah. at night. Oh, he shouldn't allowed on the road should he? Doesn't make any difference as far dad's concerned. I don't think he's taken it. How did you know? Oh no. Well he he just to Who me? Bu Mr doesn't eat does he? He doesn't eat? No, not when he's going round He eats my I mean. cake. he eats everybody else's food but he doesn't cook for himself apparently. Who was saying what his house was like? I think it was Colin. Your dad dad annoys me really because he gives him so much, you know? Like Mm. er go and get his haircut the cost of everything. Yeah, but he thinks he probably does. Yeah. He's just too busy to pay for his fees. I mean you don't really get a straight do you, when you get a No. job. And I mean, say if there's apples or anything like that, go and say, help yourself to apples he'll fill his bag until he can't get another thing in! He don't! Yeah! Well he doesn't just have a few. I mean they're gonna be No, no thrown Yeah, that's right. he fills his bag That's right. until he can't get another one in. We go . Yeah, that's right! That's right! I mean, you'd think he'd just have a few enough to make a pie or a crumble That's right. or something wouldn't Yeah. you? But the thing is, I doubt if he does make anything out of that cos that's probably I mean that's being greedy! . Yeah, but all ? Bit greedy! He'll have the runs for a week! Yeah, and he'll go. He must worth a fortune then, Marg? I don't know if he is or not. I mean, I said to . I don't know. I've no idea, probably I should think. I, I wouldn't think he was rich. I don't know, maybe he is. Yeah, but if he doesn't anything. Cos, Colin was saying how antiquated his house is. Yeah. Oh, has he been in there, Colin? I think so. Yeah. I can imagine it. I, and he said he still, he hasn't got a proper cooker or anything or He, no, he's got no television has No. he? And when irons he he boils up boils a saucepan of water and puts the saucepan over it ! Oh! I couldn't believe it! I said to Colin, you sure? He said, yeah he said, he told me. He's house proud I don't care ! He said he wets them. Urgh! Probably at that age! Urgh! cleaning and washing his pants! No! Incontinent. Yeah. How old is he? He's nearly He must be eighty eighty ain't he? odd. Yeah, he's eighty. About , near eighty. Where was that set aside? Holiday? Was it? That was in the paper. Yeah, that's just what I said. Saying it, it was just as if Yeah. Do you reckon he's still worth a fortune? Several thousand. Trouble is you don't know anyone who is any more, do you? No. Not really. I expect he is. Yeah, I reckon . Even on paper. But I mean, a millionaire on paper No. there isn't many these days. I mean, he was a millionaire on paper, years ago when millionaires were still That's right! well respected Yeah. now, they're two a penny aren't they, almost? Well I don't Marg, I'm not one of them! Nothing to talk about! I'm not! No! Someone's ! I know, two of them still I always think a family's born to that that I know of are definitely millionaires. Oh really! Yeah. And they're so ordinary people that you'd never believe it. You won't know. I mean, ten years ago, maybe twenty years ago, I wouldn't have known anyone at all that had been millionaires. Ya , I mean they wouldn't mix with the likes of us! No! Yes. That's right. The riff-raff,and the rabble ! But I mean, now they do. They're ordinary people. Well that's . Mm. Yeah. But they are ordinary people. Oh a lot of Oh yeah. ordinary people have become millionaires. Yeah. I mean one is, Jean's mother she is, she's a millionairess in her own right. Mm. And the other one's Harry. So you do know another one. Now I mean Harry wo , would he strike you as being a millionaire? You've met him. Yeah, I me mes , what Harry ? Mm. Oh yeah, Harry! You've met. Oh yeah! Sean . Oh is he? Yeah! Yeah ! But, I mean, I wouldn't have thought that. You see I he came round and dug our footing, Sean! Sat there He's lovely! and he had his beefburger the same as everybody else. Yeah. Belched the same as everybody else ! Fine! Bound to . Yeah! I don't think And, now he's as ordri as ordinary as anything. I just don't think you get everything about him. Must have knocked them off! Yeah ! That's ! Yeah. I don't think you get health out of anything. If you can be a rich woman you would ! Money can't buy you Yeah ! I think it can definitely make you happier. I, I do think it's meant to be there to actually . Yeah ! Makes you wonder ! then hasn't he? What's that Marg? The chap who's won all the money on the pools last week. Oh yeah! Oh yeah! He's gonna go round all and see Yeah. her. What is he gonna buy some treatment for her? Well he's gonna, he's said he'd spend He's gonna try. every penny you know. He's Trying to find a cure for her. She's only got was it, three months? She looked ill didn't she? Yeah. How old is he? He got I'd so sort of say four daughters is it? Four daughters,three or four daughters left. Yes, she's goes to one of them. Oh I think so. Oh a little boy, yeah. There , yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They go So they're quite young then Marg, really? Yeah. And he's won every penny I reckon. No his wife. Oh it's Mm. It's,wa his wife, yeah. That's horrible isn't it? A brain tumour they cause but I mean he said last week he spent every penny he had to get her through it and this Yeah. week he's got so much money he's still spending it on her. Yeah. Yeah. Lovely, innit? Yeah. There's gotta be someone out there though, that'll take him for a ride! I'm sure John is gonna tell you he's gonna be in the paper about all these people who's gold top milk is missing, have you heard about that? Oh what , and it was the dog? Yeah! A joke? A joke? It was a dog, yeah ! We, something all the money to make people The bottles was down his trouser leg! Yeah! He tied the bottle somewhere and the dog Not many gold tops about They're all going for a . Oh! Paid the blooming to follow them apparently and this Ooh ow! dog was getting the top off and down and then hiding the bottles! I found it funny! It cost the poor milkman a fortune to get them to pay him up for the milk people said they didn't get, you know! Yeah! That's, it's a lovely tale I think ! Oh! That'll be alright on Esther Rantzen or something like that. Yeah. Yeah. Did you see those funny clips on T V, you know the erm funny show? Videos? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Oh I like those! Yeah. They're very surprising aren't they? Did you see the one when the cat fell off the television? There's plenty of ones about isn't there? Well it Yeah, yeah, yeah, that cat one, yeah! That was really funny! And he went right off the top! Yeah! Yeah! Ah did you se , have the Friday night's. No, what's on then? Er sorry Beadle's night isn't it? Er Jeremy Beadle's Yes, probably, yeah. I think the home video ones are They're ever so funny! not put on , they're very good! But I think some of them are ever so put on. Oh! Yeah. I'm sure they're done up. And they're set up , yeah. Yeah. Yeah, but they did just on Friday night that they were some of them were four years old! No! Really, cos the date's on them isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so, you know what, know the ones that went on Friday night with the boys Yeah. Yeah. No , I never saw it. thing Yeah. Well, well the ones that were on where they were playing musical chairs or something like that Yeah, yeah. well, that was nineteen eighty seven! Was it? Was it? Well he ha , he did say they were So that didn't mean older now didn't he? Did he? The one where But some of them they do put on I don't think are worth putting on at all! And that by men or something Yeah. it wouldn't have been s No, I don't agree with that all! But if one of them had shown some of the you never, you'd never get scenes like that. It's awful! ! Oh that was terrible! Ooh ooh! It showed you about everything as Oh! well! Yeah! Yeah. But what about the little boy that was walking along with bottles of milk and to trying not spill any. Oh yeah! He did a good job with that milk didn't he? And couldn't stand up and went like this! Oh dear! I thought he was cheeky! Yeah. There was a one chap tonight, a Scotsman in a kilt wasn't there? Yeah. On a trampoline. Did he really? He had his G string Is that, is that Excuse me! the one your dinner? Oh aye! He was having a good look then I'd say! Didn't look at as though it was, it didn't lo , well other than than he had a nasty accident like and he Yeah, cos it was at a big wedding wasn't it? down there. Yeah. It looked like it. Yeah. I think so. And then, up on a trampoline no up or down, they said no way! Had enough of yours ! Ha! That's wrong innit? And disappointed. Oh! A man was horr It's muggy down here. got off a Muggy? Mm. Warmer. They said the last one B and Q. Oh right! To make her walk down that one. Well I saw this present I thought I could find it sort of erm well I suppose I would off everywhere. You know That shows how old it is , there's no registration on it. Cos we've been so cold haven't we? Yeah. Yeah. Suppose , I mean Yeah, that's right. Well it's really great now Lovely though isn't it? Nice and warm! I see that Oh fight! Still fight like hell! Do they? Oh yeah! Yeah. I think they've watch Dave in the bath I think! Yeah ! They will not stay up there! He has Ah! to put the their own in, like Oh won't they? ! Have all they all fought? You always seem to fight your, but I just don't well these two have haven't they Eileen. Mm. From the word go. They've got their pecking order and that's it! And they ha Yeah. And I thought we've had to Eileen back something before because they've fought. Oh yeah! Yeah ! You did! And they backed off lightly! But they'll get their own back! Yeah, that's right! It was like nine little indians, it was wasn't Eileen? Yeah! One down, one to go! And do your sums. One died. Favourite one died. Yeah. And the other favourite as well. Well we lost him first. Yeah , Ha! you lost him then got him back and then he died! Oh right! I thought how dare you die on me! I went ooh! God! But these two, I mean fine. Touch wood! Just thought They're healthy and that's it! Where? within you. Joyce. Hang on. Did you hear that? Ethel put That's called a now. I think that's from Albert too innit? Yeah! Ooh I think tha , I think that's terrible! Did you see were you watching erm Oh! Brian Connolly. What's that one? No. What, that No. one with Les Dennis? ? Mm. Erm Russ Abbott. Family Fortunes. That's it! Family Fortunes. Well we, did you watch it this week? I didn't see the start of it. Did you see the bit where what should a man that wears a wig never do? Yeah! I just When I switched on rolled up! Um si , what was it? Not go swimming. Don't go swimming. Don't go near helicopters ! Don't go near helicopters, yeah! Yeah! And don't do handstands. Yes sir? One there. So don't you know whose they are No you got . honey? What's that then? That's mum's. That's mine. She's alright. I'll Oh! get you a drink. dear oh dear! Get her a straw. What do you want Sylv? I'll have some Stones please? Thank you. Stones. I'm alright David. I think I'm alright. Didn't ask how you were! No oh oh oh ! No I just tonic Dave. You sure? Yes. Don't you want a little-un? No, oh no I'm alright Little port? thank you. Well I thought they were ever so funny! They were so fu Well the telly was switched on and I didn't know what it was, the question was but I guessed I just rolled up! But I mean, I've nobody said go there so I thought Well don't do that ! No, erm but you see Don't go swimming. Don't do that . I wouldn't say go near helicopter. No! I wouldn't have said that. I wouldn't have said handstands. No, nor would I. But Jackie said swimming. Yeah. Don't go Don't out in the wind. don't go out in the rain was another one ! Looks as if he's got a bonnet. Yeah ! Don't scratch your head! Yeah ! That was one. That was one of them. I did say don't scratch Yeah. your head. It was on the other night. George was talking to that when he goes Cor! Well there's no end to it. I thought oh dear! Oh! You know it's sort of mi mi miss the screw holes. Some of them think of the most stupid thing to say don't they? They do don't they? I suppose they think it's good. I've had to do it It is a stupid with the ones programme that programme! Well But oh! wouldn't believe me so they say just one more thing I suppose they gotta make that everybody said it's something about going to the back door. I ca , forget what it was about. Yeah. Oh yeah! And then you'd say got to the front door Yeah! wouldn't you? Yeah. And I thought well that's bloody stupid! That was stupid, yeah! Yeah. That was. It was daft! I suppose it's difficult when you're there, mind but Yeah, but that was really daft wasn't it? Mm. I mean, I would have given him a good kick if I'd do stood along side of him ! Hello ! Well Sylv, we had the Boggle out yesterday and we got twenty four words! Sixty . What i in that time? Very good! Yes! No. Oh! No, no no. Are you sure you're not making it up? No we never. No we , no we cho , because er Oh dear oh dear! because erm cos I sat down there. might think you had your usual. I dunno what you had, I I, I Five pounds for you in there. Cheers! I'm on. You had that? Yeah. Who are these? And yeah Yes. we said you could Thanks. also And Noel said make one. and that Mary Who? erm you know First, you Cyril can but dad's being chilly No, he's not in yet. Yeah so we think so. But dad's being chilly so what he did was calculated wasn't it? Yeah, but rather than what, what is frightening . Sure. Yeah. In there. Dad you just Yeah. calculated you've got an extra . Got one . One to Mary. One to Mary. Yeah? Is it this one? You've got an extra word. Dad Well, no. isn't it? Cos he was something. Yeah. But I've got one. Yeah, that was already in. Ooh, don't say it! Oh sorry! Oh sorry! Yeah. What was he helping? Oh hell's bells we got Oh yeah Oh yeah. some more! but that's the thing. He had a heart attack ooh Yeah. Your brother has? That's alright. What are you doing, swapping around here? Mm. Well we have extra one. Blooming extra? Well If you take those two everyone's away Thank you very much Ken. Thanks Ken. You're a hero! A hero? Well yeah. Oh. Hero. What night does that Camomile Garden start or Camomile Lawn. Thursday isn't it? Thursday. I keep Well thinking it's camomile tea ! that guy that went on there , I must admit I don't envy actually. She's, well we'll do it. That was quite good that was. No. But she hasn't but she hasn't That's what I'm But one thing abou about her Had her hair cut short. . What,you mean? Oh my God! I'd never noticed it or not. No, it's No, it's sort of lit up. What does that say? Which, which one was that? Well he is! Is it? It is I think. Yeah it is. Her hair's tied up the back and it's got on. Ah! You're alright. It's good. It must be his friend. She's the one in the black suit? The Mm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They can tell you which way, Henry is taking him on Yeah, it's just that I I'm . on Friday, for work. Oh well I He's taking him on. oh I just laugh at them now. Yeah. And erm That's a good point, yeah. it re and he came back after eight years of of not working there and he came in hello Barbara! You have half changed now! I thought, Christ! Eight years ago I don't half feel bloody old! Didn't I? Well, I didn't think, oh well thanks a lot! You know, I thought What's that? Anyway,they're putting him in disgrace. Yeah, that's right. And that reminded me. How, er how come did you get then? Well I went grey when I was twenty two. Who was that mum? But I'd always coloured. Mm. Did you really? Yeah. Always. Yeah , so you coloured it first of all then. Yeah. And sh , er then you er coloured I coloured it when I first met you didn't Yeah. I? Yeah. Yeah, a sort of red colour Been colouring it for years! Yeah. Then you went usually had it Then I let it all grow out. Yeah. And went my natural colour then decided I didn't like it again, then went back colouring Went back again. Yeah. What is your natural colouring? Grey. Greyish Yes Oh! but were you before that? And white . , I mean Fair. when you went to Fair. Yeah. Just a little bit grey do you? Just a few grey hairs but I was grey here at twenty two white grey at the sides. Barbara , it's a good job you both went out with George again because I mean Dave's got well I remember really knowing with hair ! One grey, and one false ! That would have been handy wouldn't it? Yeah. Ho, dear! Say, I'm gonna colour mine this week my dear! Okay? Yes. No well we could have had a matching hair do. Yes ! I tell you what I nearly wa , I nearly did end up like he did, I was frightened at one time! Did you? Yeah. No, it was coming out in great lumps and very big patches. Oh yeah! I just wash right Ooh great big patches like that coming out from here! All round the front. Huge patches! Was it alopecia? Yeah. And of course, the more you worry about it the more it starts er to come out. And I thought I could be, be bald by fifty! Did you get treatment for it? Yeah. Skin tonic and skin . That's very good! That's good isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. Just dreadful! Really it's done men for good, for years hasn't it? Mm. Your hair's alright now though isn't it? Oh absolutely! Yeah, every time. Yeah. But when, once you start that, I mean, you never know it's gonna go No. I mean I was already bald at the sides. Yeah. And on top it was terrible, I used to try and comb it a certain way. Lovely! Mm? Bald. Erm Yes. I was. I used to say it's not fair! Yeah. Is that with a lot of them? Yeah it's mainly Yeah, that's right. erm Ma ma ma mainly worry. They'll be here on the Friday night and then they'll come up to, coming up just for the day on the Saturday. Ah! But, in the meantime, he'll stay in a sort of . Are they staying the night? Yeah, they're He is, yeah. staying No! Yeah they are. Yeah they are. They are staying Yeah. cos they went and booked it in. Ah! Oh! And we got Yeah. Okay. So what, they must be saying, staying the Saturday night mustn't they? , yeah. I would think erm Yeah. , excuse me! Okay dear. He put his posh accent for you. He don't normally say that. I'm think . Yeah. Simmone, I suppose, I know you've been quiet get yourself ! She's not talking. I'm on the majority of this tape. That's alright. You'll be on a lot more of them. In fact, I would say, we'll not complete it. Which is average Ooh God! for me! Yes! Ah dear! Is he Dorset though, Cyril? What Well he is but he won't Don't take no notice of them! Make up words recently. Mm. What you got a sticky door or I'd say, would mind giving me your name sir? That'll help! Yeah ! We got a foreman at work who is ever so nice, but pleased to meet you . Oh, no ooh! Do you know I can't understand that! You can't see it. You actually have to kinda tell people No. I mean that's worse. Yeah. But I I ca like a dog. No. Isn't it? I just died ! You know, I mean you're obviously say something. Yeah I do. Only I'm sure children would. I I say nothing.. Can I borrow your cardigan? Where you off to then? A card. Why where you going now? I'm bored. You've all got your clothes on you anyway. Yeah. Yeah, Mary's got one the same. A little white one. That's always been like that. Well you are silly! Three people or something, I dunno what it is. No. When you clear this we're gonna go into the kitchen, why do you always make out that I don't ? Trying to get out I thought I'd led you because these two have gone through. The birthday. Oh yes, yes! The best place would be at the moment she's got two jobs. And she phoned up the Saturday, on Friday She's seeing him , yes. Yeah. You can see him at my final, he's up . He does a lot of erm that variations Yes. He got the treatment didn't he? Yeah. He got a card from before haven't we? Mm. Yeah. Mm. Get out of here! So What's happened with them ? Well he did, he gets two sorts, they're in here and Right. and he can put erm prices on them, you know erm getting equipment from this, what a gas, was it? Piscoscophy Vasectomy. You got, a light goes down and it shows, you know Piscoscophy? Well we don't know Mum? Gastoscophy. Piscoscophy. I thought it was . They sent one down to the hospital didn't they? Might be Barb. It just stops him . It does then? Well actually it jus , he's not having a bad time. He only wants But I said we could join the other, you know that I know. And what are they gonna do, is it a hernia? Hiatus hernia? Yeah. Got to What did you say? straightaway. Yeah. Yeah. Two, three four days for him. Yeah, they go to the back don't they? Yeah. And they've gotta go right round through that wing cos that's . Oh, it wouldn't be so bad but it, I I, I think it comes back again. Oh! Are you sure it goes ? They only to give well it it was ever so good because I gave him fi , the doctor said, you know I should give him you know, eat just before five o'clock and you go so fortunately I was at home before he did so I thought we'll have something quick then, just had a roll, you know, and I thought well I,i it's not worth worrying about it and sort of No, yeah. so then the very time he went in I you know, took didn't say anything at all I thought was the best thing. Yeah. Yeah, cos and about eight o'clock I said to Robert, shall I phone Georgie up and sort of see if he wants to come home. He was meant to phone me up at four ! When's he having it done then? Oh that was just erm That was a while ago? Yes. No, Friday. There's erm Oh that's awful! Hello Cathy. That's Oh! what he had the other day. What is it? The Karate club. The cholesterol. Yeah. Yo you know it . Cholesterol. Mm. I did do that. Anyhow, when I got there in ages! Erm, has anyone had these sort of packets of Fruit and Fibre through their door? I got one No. through the door. Well I Yeah, we had them Fruit and Fibre. we had them months ago. Yes, quite a while ago, yeah. Months and months ago. Why? Oh we had some about, ooh six weeks ago. Mm. When I got back he'd eaten those so I presu , quite pleased about that. And he said the nurse said, you know,yo you must have something. So I get that sort of thing now. You, you're not playing that back to us! Can you play it back to us? Well I dunno. Oh! No? Who's on what then? Who was ? Do you So think you will? You drink your wine. No. No ! Ooh no! Slimline orange please? Ah? Slimline orange. Ooh I say! I'll put a few there . Alright Sylv, so have I! I'm alright. You'll never get I'll take a bottle of erm Same one. No it's not. Oh no! Oh Yeah! Yeah, you do. Ooh yeah! Alright thanks. I've go got one. Yeah. Oh you rotten sods! Yeah, I bet that's the men about they were talking about again. I had Ken get my blood test done and because of that I Ken wou wouldn't have got it back since. I don't reckon they show you anything. Unless there's something Yeah. drastically wrong I want they do No. it quick . No. If there was anything real badly Well I want wrong they send for you. Mm. I mean, that's sensible. They make them up. I never felt that would make any difference you know. Well I'm glad which . When I went to have it done Any better? and they fetched me down at the hospital What nothing they found? Get your bits together Marg. Yeah. So I thought Oh yeah! well I'll leave it three weeks and then I'll give them a ring. They might know whether they got it back or whether it went . Mm. The next morning it's back here and I said well make an appointment to see him then. Oh! Cos we saw them walk down the road after, sort of after him and I said But I don't think it can be any more than that. So I said to him Oh he's not far away so then? No, he's not far away. I'm not unduly bothered. I like It's got about six bedrooms well it did have, not about Right. it's got six bedrooms. Yeah. I mean some of them are built in the roof. Mm. Yeah. Well I don't know. The roof's got enough to sort of quarter. A bit amateurish? Well nobody knows what the rooms are like. Just as well we went and rented. But do I just that is I don't think it makes any bloody difference, as far as that is. They won't come to It went down. eight point seven percent. He's an old . Do you know anybody that sort of you know happy Oh yes! Well he's now a qualified doctor. Me an , Me and Gemma and Jane went for walk yesterday some people we met along the road I di I did it all and erm Yeah. so he took some bread down and then popped up to the gate where they these were sort of quite a way a way, and Gemma said you wait there with Jane and I'll invite those people to come up, you see and erm, I've gotta be a bit cool, went to the table to put some bread there course it an awful and she Er, oh great, you know, real ransackly sort of place o Put it on the floor with the over where this bloke and she said, ooh do you mind me feeding the geese here? Oh no! He said, come and see my bantams! So Gemma called to us, honestly, she weren't gonna go anywhere first. And he had this huge cat about with the grace of erm Whiskers there with these great big waterproof trousers on and all this mud! Something like in the series of that . Oh that's a lovely place! Done lovely! Oh well it's a really dirty old shed! Oh poor poor He had a goat in there but th another gate going out could the chicken, you know. And the bantams and all that. So, we soon sort of made our way out through there and this old boy, he was so funny! He must have been around for years but I didn't know what his name was. So he, he went, course he had us calling like I'm calling Gemma, Gemma and Jade and so he is going calling them by their names! That was so well Ah ah! so Gemma said have you got any grandchildren? Oh no I'm not the marrying kind. Oh I thought I wonder why ! He had ducks and bantams and Ah Ah! you know, but it was all sort of like that. Who's that? That's not Mogs is it? I wondered who he wa so we That's . He reckoned he lived at the corner of or something, so, when I asked him where he lived? I said, I reckon in one of those sheds ! Yeah ! When you go along a , just before you turn round as if a , you're going towards Lumsbury they're two pairs of semi-detached. I was born in They're quite big actually up there! Yeah. I , we walked down, back down through there. I was born in one of the semi-detached, but I don't know which one it was, it must have been one of the not the first or the fourth it must have been one of those in the middle, but I'm not sure which one it was. No I woul , yeah I suppose, quite a few Cos I was two when we left there. there I wouldn't like to sort of say. But it's just two pairs of semi-det What, do they call ,Happy Bottom No, leads to Happy Bottom Is that the Happy Bottom where Lamb's Green is. No. No you sor Pi , yeah, leads to, or there's a walk, just down the back of them there's Leads through Happy Bottom then, then Road. You walk down this sort of, you go through some woods and this is how we ended up where these geese Mm. were. But the neighbour had told her where they were she's an animal . You see, that was all school when I was a kid because we went to school in a chapel for part of the war. I mean di , you know where the concentration camp was do you? Where the Italians were? No, no. We'll have to go, walk round there one day and see if we can find this old man! Yeah ! And I,si there was a concentration camp for the Italians and they were really smashing to us! They oh in the same school That's where my dad was and they made my mother Oh I didn't know your dad was Italian. But you would never guess would really! No, he would hide there and he used to go and have to control them Mm. They were really, really nice! Well I mean as far we were concerned And one prisoner made mum a beautiful wooden ironing board! Yeah, they used to make baskets Absolutely beautiful! give baskets,baskets, hanging bas Gosh! It was good! Yeah! Yeah. She was absolutely thrilled! She that one. Yeah. Get anything you want Lovely it was! And the day erm V day you could hear them all cheering out there! It's lovely innit? Ah! Probably, during the war we did quite well, what with the black Americans because they were stationed at the towers and they used to give us kids chocolates and and er I had a special Handy! friend Charlie and er my dad used to get so cross with me! Kept, and I didn't have any chocolate, well I was only a kid, but Yeah. I didn't know and he used to say Well really it was policeman wasn't it? he said one of these days he said he'll wanna come and see your mother! Well I couldn't see why he couldn't ! That was too dry was it? That won't do you any harm! No! Won't, won't affect your slimming. No, not at all. Slimming? Should have seen what she put away Yeah,. today! Oh , no that's er See you o Mo , see you on Monday! that's yours. Yes. Yeah , that's right. You haven't told Albert you're slimming have you? I haven't. I should hope not, we've brought I haven't that roast in today. Oh, if it's an old facial thing she's getting real fatter? No. No, she's not, she's getting a grown up face on her. Yes, yes. No she's got a serious face Cos, you are a grown up now aren't you? Oh she's fifteen coming on sixteen is she? Yeah , she's got a National what's it You'll be sixteen going on twenty! Yeah, I've got a my my insurance number now National Insurance number. Yeah. Oh you've got your National Insurance Yeah. number now? Yeah. There's to work for you my girl. Oh she's Aha. got it now? Aha. Salaries and holidays and that thing. And ma , make you pay your pension book this year. Mhm. Just ask the old girls to make their and say well I want your National Insurance numbers? Now, now where is that? I say, it's on your pension book. Is it? I didn't know! I know mine off by heart. Do you? What your National Insurance Do you? number. If they want to know I know exactly what number it is. Do you? Do you? Well I gave my dad's to put, I gave dad his to take to hospital you see. And he says, what are you giving me that for? It's no good! And I said it was! How is he at the moment Marg? What time's he getting up now? It's quite a nice day today. Oh yes! When I got up this morning, I nearly died! I got out the bed at five and twenty to eleven and the curtains were still drawn and I thought oh my God! So, I opened the door and I was so pleased when he answered, you know. He said, just at the right time he decided that he can't get bath any more. Well that's not a problem. I said to him yesterday wash all your important little places and I'll do the rest, you know. So when I got there this morning he was still in his pyjamas he'd got on quite well, all he wanted me to do was wash his face. Would you like another drink? Would you like some more Er drink? he wasn't too bad but he's No , I'm alright. still, he can't say anything, the pain's there all the time. No, they're alright Bill. But with a bit of luck we'll know tomorrow. We're all okay here. Oh yeah, the results of your X- ray. Mm. How's you Bill, alright? Do you want any more to drink? No thank you darling, no thanks No thanks. My round. Bill. One pint of . Aye. Can't get any more drinks now! Oh oh, oh no ! Well we might have offered ! Do you use nail clippers on him? Mm. Yeah. Yeah. I use them on Dave's mums finger Oh! nails. ! She goes, oh no you need to, don't get back, she don't keep her hands still! Don't think much of that! When they get old they're all sort of Oh! wriggly ! Yeah. And I file my dad's But for him. they came sort of without ! I said to him all the, you know his his nail and I reckon I washed a pair of black feet the other and I thought my God,! Oh God! Really? I really thought it was that bad! What they were that black! What you think it was gangrene? Oh my God! I thought oh Christ! Bloody hell! Did you put Dettol in the water? The toes are gonna come off in a minute? Oh oh, how awful! But they didn't. I don't have any ruddy or anything like that. I'd collapse if they did! It'd be awful wouldn't it? Ooh ooh ! You could have said this little piggy went to market! Yeah ! How dreadful! It's one he ! He don't fe , he don't feel nothing now. No, course they can't feel it can they? I thought about popping out to ! Urgh! It's gonna come off It's gonna com yeah. in a minute! Oh! Tony was talking about how cold I am. We've got this old boy that comes to me, often she's told us his hands are rotten, that it's all yellow and horrible! Er I said to George you know, you've gotta remember these things. If anything happens to that man they'll know he's alright except for tidy. Must be awful mustn't Mm. it? There's one man I'd like to take care of though. That women's seventy and a day and she's got the body of a young girl! Yeah. She's got a lovely bod , lovely body! Is that right? Beautiful! Got a lot of it! You know, she really has! Got a lovely body! Really she's . What she us ,u used to watch. Yeah because her is lovely! She's got a young body. Yeah. That's strange Mon! And no wrinkles on the body at all! I mean Did you try her firms and Well no, that's alright. I'm having my leg pulled here! Probably hadn't been in the sun at all! Absolutely lovely body! Got a beautiful body! Well that Ethel's in her seventies and, you see her in just towel wrapped round her and she could wear a Round her head wear them. strapless anything. Mm! Mind you, Val looks She looks really good! Really? Yeah, but I'd say it's because she's a Have she little bit plump. Yeah, but she's firm though Marg! In a way No, I don't doubt it. Well there's no wrinkles. And there's no wrinkles or fat involved and everything about her is her. Yeah. Mm. She wouldn't be here We're hopeful of that part! would she? Dunno. Yeah, she came on Saturday. I was telling her about You alright? that, about Bobby's ! Rang up last night so I gotta ring her Wednesday. Yeah. So we don't actually say the same what we're like it should be alright I suppose. But if you went up When you go and down! When yo , when you go up and down, yeah! You're alright aren't you? You've nothing to worry about. It's when you go up and up, you worry! Wha wha wha kind of a seagull is this ! When you set off breathe out. I'm not lifting my jumper up Bill! If he expected a skirt, Oh! he's just about got it! I hope you're planning to bring that down when I got sunburnt you you thought that you'd been cheated didn't you? Oh I know I've been cheated! Just as well as a can't fi , throw it over my shoulder! Didn't you have the same figure after you had a boys then Sylv, er Mary? No, I as flat as a pancake until I had her! I've never lost an inch off my bust now. No. Oh well! But when I was at, you know, when I was a , when I was sort of feeding, cor! The best I've ever been !and they went back. I never got When they first I sort of lost weight, I was sort of you know,at all. actually weighed anything, the little bit I had! No! I came back up They came straight and I stayed there. Never lost an inch! Didn't you? Nope! I was a thirty two A. Whe , the day I got married I was a thirty two A A Yeah. which is a very flat one. Yeah. I'm now up to a thirty four B and I've been a thirty four B ever since then. Mm. And I never went down again. I can get back up to about a thirty eight now. and I hate it! Yeah! Done you a bit good Yeah ! in some ways I bet! It has hasn't it? God! And now, I think to myself, well and inch off wouldn't be bad. Yeah. But I wouldn't wanna go back to a thirty two A not really. Not as big as I am down here cos you wouldn't look right would you? I'm bottom heavy. Yeah, so am I Sylve. Can you just imagine anyone like top heavy? That doesn't bother me. When I was young I had Dolly Parton? Oh! Well then, that's something that you see. Well you,like that. It is isn't it? Yeah. Yeah! And you find, can you imagine anybody trying to do that these days? No. Mm. Must be! I think she's going to always fall over all the time really ! Yeah. Well tell you what, she would never get up would she? No. No. You know, she'd isn't it? Yeah. You can have without the honey, you know. Oh yeah! You know they're back? Are they back? Are they back alright? Yeah. Yeah. I mean they were supposed back. Well that's gone quickly , quick to me but it's probably That'll them won't it? just as . Well! It must be them. Well you, it must be. I dunno, you , he said erm I think it was . Was it? Mm. Aha! I thought it was last week? So seven weeks he said it was. No, last weekend. And yet Well it's seven weeks last Thursday. They did something with Miss . So is that them? Yeah. Ah yeah! Ya! That's them! They went the twenty seventh didn't they? That's what they said or something. Aha. And er But he doesn't look exceptionally brown though. He's alright for the Donnington No. Grand Prix. No. Do he? He looks a bit Yeah. Er, May isn't it? I thought he would have been a real deep brown actually. Yeah, that's right. We're going in there. Is it? Yeah. On Sunday. This is nice isn't it! So it's the fourth time then? Yes. Yeah. And we come back on the thirteenth. Yeah, we go out the day of the And we've booked the taxi. Monaco Have you? Yeah. Although, I sa , but I hope they've got the right day! So we're getting on with it then? Er er, we go out the day of the Monaco Everything's done now. Grand Prix. We just gotta get there. Do you? Ooh do you? What date Yep. do you go then? The day of the Monaco Grand Prix! On Dave's birthday. On Dave's birthday. On the thirty first? Yeah. Do you? I've put it in Dave's birthday? my diary, I've go wrote it in my diary, I got Dave's birthday. What you off on holiday? Yeah, with Marg For two weeks? Yeah. Well that gotta be weeks now innit? Oh yeah! That's right! In June. April March May. Think Well of me while you're three months. over there doing my G C S E's please ! Oh! Ah! Oh God! Oh you're waiting for them I've had my exams are you? ages! Is that right? I haven't counted it No. Mary. One, two, three So it's dreadful! Fourteen. That's the pay arrears I got. Fourteen , yes. Yeah, cos we're not to the end of Feb yet are we? Yeah. Fourteen. Where are you lot going? But it doesn't take long does it? No. It'll It's fly by. between Nice and Oh, I've gotta say. It's very nice! It's very nice! Well no, they'll be go Christmas time when Think all this time When you start what date did Erm you start? the eighteenth. I've got my orals on the eighteenth, nineteenth, and twentieth Of May? Yeah. Then I get half term for a week and then my actual exams start. As I said to you've have this half term off from now on from tomorrow she's got to start My first exam I've got is June the fourth. And I've got two on the fourth, one on the tenth, and one on the eleventh, so the last You've got your orals in May. Yeah, May the eighteenth, nineteenth Yeah. and twentieth. I will probably have had my French actual one in May. So definitely haven't had the So you've got to start revising now. ones back. We've had the seven exam in the erm Isn't that clear? Is that your gateaux? No it's Shelley's. Well don't eat it all then! Is it, isn't it clear that I get Yeah. It's very clear. Is it very dry, exceptionally dry? It is ! Well don't speak then? She can't remember what the last one tastes like ! brown innit? Yeah, it's nice, but very dry. It's quite nice . Yes. This one here has really dropped the whole of my particulars on her own! I think that's disgusting! Not on my own! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Have you saw anything? Ha! Ha! Ha! Five to two! Ha , well who gave you a particulars then? Or did you buy a bit? No, she didn't! I bought it. Mm. Oh well you can't blame her for not No, you didn't, dad did! I did! Dad said I could have an order! You bought the . Let's have this knife. Yeah. She's got it wrong. Good job I haven't Oh look over there! Th there erm they erm I went back into came to the office. Don't you think they're only using that as Well yeah! apart from having it on Urgh! No. There was all the mail And th the thing is, but, you know piled on it beside it. I don't know how I'm gonna . Well! So you weren't Got any help? Yeah. I just cannot have her today as well! You never heard anything from what's his name? Robbie, about going into London did you? Yeah, it's alright. Not a word. No, not a word. Not a word! But he sa , he said he's not going any more. Yeah! Who was talking of going to work for a different firm then? I thought it was you? No. No. He and, erm a the other bloke are still there. The chap who tried to call, the one watching it? Behind, yep. Yeah, he's still there. I was gonna say er somebody told me that he'd left and I thought it was you cos nobody would . No, he's still here. I got it wrong, yeah. Yeah, could have been me Marg. Could have easily been me. Do you think you'd better aim for the winter now? I would, definitely. Yeah. Personally, maybe we just Did I tell you what's happened? They sent you all notes on Well it's quite naughty and then you won't cos Goodwood's sorted isn't it? you'll expect that they The coach was burnt out down in Beatmore , if you remember and then the the police took them August there Di , no,th October. police took him in that night cos they thought he'd burnt it out himself. And it's taken all this time, it's gone to court and all the rest of it, and they haven't got a case. So, they couldn't do anything in the meantime. I should think Well they that was genuine. the banks wo wouldn't let me have extra money or anything like that. Oh! They're trying to get somewhere now with the police but it could have happened anywhere! No it's alright! But this, this bloke has sort of said, ooh he said, apparently one of the blokes that were working for him said that he had overheard him saying they were gonna burn the coach out. Oh! And if this chap said, the one that took it that night, he said there is no point in him doing it because he didn't have the coaches insured for enough. No. No. He took this bloke in, he didn't have a job. Isn't it mean? Mm. You know the er It is. Cou po , could possibly Yeah. going on the what not. And did this chap do it? They don't know who did it. No. They tried to make Jim had done his own coach, the one that took us over Yeah. there. Yeah. But he le , they let him go off on holiday in the end. It wa it was the night before they went on holiday. How depressing Marg! I mean I can understand it in this day and age, people trying to Get their money back. Yeah. Get their money from insurance policies and try and make their money back I suppose what it really amounts to, it's probably someone who's in the same line of business and they're trying to get the best way aren't they? Mm. But it's a nasty business isn't it? I know. That's , you moving about? Yeah ! I'm reading. I'm gonna be here all night with that little red book waiting for me to come over! Alright, thanks! Dave, this is your life! Sorry! This is And you're more number in her little red book! I tell you what though Marg Dave's got a job pretty well hasn't he? I've done it. Yeah, I saw it last week here as well!lo , lot shorter otherwise he'll be complaining his ears are growing too high! But that if he won't sit there very often Marg, then I suppose I'd do anything. Your business is my business. Oh I see! Which was the last time I did George's was the day when I came down . Well it's Mr you see, he goes out at twelve o'clock on a Sunday and doesn't get in till quarter to four. Work! Yeah. Work! Yeah. Well down right Oh the there are you see! Oh well it's gotta be then, here's a taxi. Oh right! Yeah. They might . Well you've had that! I've had that. Bleeding yes!! Oh right! Oh right, this is your life! Mum told me off! Not now. Twenty five past. Not now. I'll pick up I'm on Wednesday. Ah ah! She's just determined to find out who Twenty fourth of March. Yeah. So who this bloke is? So that's not this week It might be that's next week? No, it'll be Bill. Yeah. Now who, what was that then? That'll be easy, watch this. Is that right? That's right. Yeah, I usually watch, usually watch that. I don't usually watch it. But I don't watch it Don't you? No. I'll put hands in, I find out. You can? There's nothing wicked . I understand that you found out But it's e eon Something like that was that. Yeah. I might not watch it. Yo you don't think she's got any Wait a minute. we think it's a Oh,a do you? boring, then we looked to see what's on the other side, but for some reason she was talking don't they? Or time until they Do you watch er Noel Edmonds? you see coming off the th there's a straight bit erm, but she was very friendly with this woman's mother Mm. but the daughter still keeps in touch with her. She's just written to her to say that she's on This is Your Life on the third or fourth of March, whatever it is Oh! and her son-in-law is an actor but Mrs doesn't know who he is, what his name is Oh! so to speak so she's written and told her whereabouts she's sitting and everything so That girl is daft but he wa that's all I can say! she don't usually, but she will be that night. She'll remember won't she? Yeah. He'll remind That's right! her again Ye oh so she'll remember. Yeah. I think I saw you with her Wednesday. You probably did. Yeah. I thought ooh! That looks like Joannie's old car! I was waiting for the bus. Were you? I thought ooh! There's another woman in Where were you? there! In Robson's Yeah. Oh yeah! She can't miss Getting her pension. it out can she ! No. Oh, is this local you went? She ! In Lidmouth Yeah. Does anyone watch Noel Edmonds on a Saturday night? I watched it from where he gets I do watch some of it. Timmy Mallet up onwards. You know where they go round Yes. to people's houses? I didn't see it cos we fell asleep. I caught a bit of it on and we sat down and went to sleep. Yeah. And you've gotta guess who's But what happened on Saturday? house it is. What were they doing? No , they, go the, you know, it might be your living room, they just put Oh I see! Oh yeah! This week with those swimmers they were, those two women put a peg on their nose and had their swimming hats on and was doing the act of swimming in the lane? No! No . Apparently erm, they often do this and of course, they sort of went into their home and got this girl with her friend and they sort of put the pegs on their noses and have these sort of rubber hats with those Yeah. , you know, like they do and they sort of pretend they're they pretend they're swimming Oh! don't they? Yeah! What, and weren't they? Yeah. Well you know, she was just sat there in the chair and they said that they You wouldn't believe it! came into this room. Would you? No! And sort of And they danced. they sort of, they danced you know, like they we , they would and sort of , getting ever so silly about it actually! And they I know ! Cos they did like They didn't say anything. song person, that last week, and Terry weeks ago. His wife set him up cos he he's always the one Oh! The one, oh yeah! Oh right! everybody else. Yeah. When he had roly-polys in. Yeah. Whe , that was the one. Yeah. Cos he hated fat people. Yeah. Yeah, he hated fat people. And they're all round and they're And he hated the gunge tank. ! He hated the gunge bit as well. Yeah. Like when they went out in the garden and they put Yeah. the gunge on him as well. What's that? I haven't No he watched that. Does anybody else know That er, that's his. what's happening on March the second? Oh yes ! I'm glad about that. Strange advert I saw in the week it it was erm I i haven't seen it. it was something about March the second, it was just a clip Pancake day is it? No, it's the Oh! the Monday! This is the second! It's a Monday is it? Oh it's a Monday. Okay, go on. Tuesday's the third. And in, it said there's, find out all you want know or much better being put. Ah? And this came up about three times! And it hasn't been On television? on since. Yeah! But it came up about three times! Well I got in Friday and she goes , ooh! Look at the adverts mum! And then my programme caught the advert. Yeah, it really puzzled me! No, I reckon the advert Yeah, I've seen it. You'll have to watch on Watch it then. Yeah. So something's obviously happening. Yeah. But she hadn't found out what. It was just a clipping of it. It had it sor it was sort of like the Body Shop sort of theme, but it's not the Body theme. It you know th , their green symbol with the black Yeah. in it? Well it's green and it's got cream in it, but it's not the exact symbol of the Body Shop,i a bit different. It's weird! It's just really puzzling me! I don't know what it is. . Oh they're recording us. What's it for ? What? You wanna put it on the table where it's actually. Right, just put it on the table and leave it! No you can't. I'll put it on the table, then leave it! If I had what? What behind? Yeah. So there you'll pass all round. Oh nice! I thought I'd do a tape then mum. Not gonna be Okay? worth going out. You get endorsement! Have they ? Oh I went like hell then didn't I? At least they've gone light and we can hammer along. I didn't think you could. No! Ought to have a floor manager or something. Aye up! That's okay for them we'll be able to fix something on. Often get many of them, don't worry! Mostly for the cross both sides. Are you coming out tomorrow night? What you going erm Going to the Legion. I dunno. Legion Legion. Alright. Legion tomorrow night. Well I paid my dues. I paid, I paid er well I'm not off , but I I'll put something towards it. Oh I see! You got something a have you put something towards it? Yeah. I think by Christmas you'll have had anything Ha! going. Cost a fortune it does! Well if you will give the money to Albert! Give it to Albert, and he'll Albert don't come down Friday night. Yeah. Yeah. You'll have to try these. Well you should have left them for me really. Yeah. We didn't unfortunately. We didn't ask, but he said not to. Yeah , I know where it is! Se seeing him later on. How much now? Should have given us the money, money. No, we're coming out tomorrow night then! Oh no! Don't you go getting with all friends from the Legion? Don't they , yeah you'll play in the Legion won't you? Ah? Ah? In here. Yeah. Yeah, I might I might have a wander o over there. You don't want me to come and see how you're getting on do you? You might be able to unpack Bob for us. Yes. Well, from what I know he didn't get no money after that! Well, really that's no problem at all Ken! I can do that dead easy! Yeah, but you gotta be down here early enough for that to see him. He goes on number one don't he? Does he? Ah, we got class here! I'm coming along anyway Friday. No we'll beat them then! No doubt. But wha when I was, you weren't around when we played them then were you? Cos I didn't come, I was ill. I was ill . I was ill. I had a we we should be in there. But they said we lost it. But, no to play, you did. No. And after that I I you know, seeing him again and he he's not a player He's unbeaten champion. No he's not. Well he . Yeah, but he doesn't play against he doesn't play with us does he? Yeah. He's Well look and see what's in the way then. Is he gonna play with us . Well he was up against me and he knew it. He knew it! No, I'll be going,. He's good too! Good player! Bit of a, bit of a good darts player. Well he's a county player isn't he Albert? Yeah. Reasonable player. I mean he scored well in the Yeah. Really, the way I look at it he Yeah. He say, he said he's a fu , he's a terrible player and he played against Bob and I and we had we want two double . Move over. Well that's it. Mind, that's that's what I like about that bloody . Come and kiss the ! You, you ! Now you're being rude! Right, right. Yeah and That's what I like. No, you you put your own, David down there. Yeah. Yeah. I think that, I mean they still got the different, if you're playing like a shot I think you do. I think you do because I mean, we got nine players and once you've drawn that out you either leap forward by What about the places you go to put eight or nine . eight singles and that's that problem . But you can. You could have a coming around every week and two you don't get it. And you talk about buying them young, you can got them, cos he knows . Yeah. . With you coming in, nobody knows they're at the gate. No, I I see what you mean. Alright! I like the . today do you get four at home and four away. Yeah. And that goes on aggregate on the night, yeah? Yes. And the, as we got our own side they can, they can win perhaps they just around I'll do it. the way going back they got before. Whereas me and you got a team together, you said forty two playing league and four playing here and four playing a league game. That's right , yes. So you got . Oh no you do , you no, no! Well yes. Well no, no, no. You play four on the team the four on the team play a go right? Then, whichever played a one that game go away again. Yeah. So you've got the same ? ! Yes, alright then. Then you play, you play yo you play four singles four singles, four singles and two doubles. I was thinking you played . I mean they go away, I mean the six always played at the back. but everybody else is. Brian was saying, he said you going in with your he said and we'll lose that , he said he should play his best bloody Well yeah. six you've got! But darts don't work like that . If you're going to win you gotta play you're best six . That's right. That's right. You've got to, but then again, you know Unless you're not bothered. Unless, unless, unless, unless you won and then you get best . Well no, you ge if you won and give the rest a game. See we're not bothered. We're, we're, I mean we're not we're not that bothered really . Yeah, but no could we? I mean Well we could, we could help you I mean we want, we want well, to tell you truth, we shall won on that, we won on that occasion. I put on, I put on my best two doubles haven't I? And left left Well I only said whatever you want to do. Do you wanna go up for suit . I said, that's all we want. Now, you know We go out to win on the night, we're playing tomorrow Exactly! and we go out to win. Everybody goes on about . If we win without it, we come in the first five that's all well and good. We you go out, do you go out to win? Everybody But does that. you don't argue about it. If we lose, we lose. You don't, I mean I'd like to win it every bloody week but, I'd be chuffed. I'd be as happy as a dog with two dicks! I mean they stopped us Friday didn't they? They thought it would stop us didn't they? You thought it would stop us as good as they did. What, seven two was it Six or No, six. two. one of them. Mm. I mean we played good, but just couldn't get out and they did. Well the door was open and nobody were worried about that. Don't you remember that thirty doubles. What, they got it? They got it? The only worry about that was Brian. Yes, you're right. Yeah! Yeah. Played out of his skin again. But er he, I had some . Played, he played out of his bloody skin till half way. He couldn't of played as many, he'd have bloody Well that was . But the Cos he hasn't got any . That, I sort of said who was it? He plays like you said. I was going to old Chris, I said I said he should play in the class. He's quite a good player . I said, he eats about a as much as much as like a corn packet ! Ah, Brian, Brian, David has never met you. And he went He would be on the , good that hole! Good that hole! And he went bump, bump, bump took the prize down and I said, and I walked past we said like, to his mate Chris, I said, he's improved a damn sight more than I'd have thought. Er yeah, I'm waiting on the dole tomorrow honey. I'll get the work soon enough. Well they've only two pairs. They got Bob , the Bob . oldest player who ever Neil, you can wear the green card. Yeah! No, they've . I always get that , that . No! No! No! Neither has Robbie. Thank you. She'll be there. Who? They reckon they really haven't got their play right. It'll be That's the only, er, that's only reason we will. Yeah! I thought you said they've got a chap Well He did. Full . Yeah. Get that. I don't know. What about ? No, I I I can do that. Robbie's got it. Rob We're gonna win for victory . And that erm Carole down there look. Hasn't been for a few years. Yes. Yeah. I pulled my . Erm But, the man goes on number two. I did, the afternoon. Yeah. See him a couple of years anyway. Go and pick up? If you'd see him, I thought you all was under the rest of them but Well that, I think I would have recognized looked younger. the face anyway. The bloke with the green usually wears the green trousers. But he plays that well every, cos every time I see him play he plays hell of bloody suit! Yes. Definitely. Definitely. You never lose a touch. Not with the team you've got. Okay, I'm coming! Alright? Hold on! Hold on! Hold on! Yes. Hold on! Oh yeah! As long as you, you shouldn't, you shouldn't lose it now. Oh I know. No way! Not with Well I wanna go then woman! Ah? Don't move it. Eh? Yeah, you just do it for one bloody night don't you? Yeah, I know we But we can! can! The sheep to cross the road and Mm. quite unusual! I'd never seen it before and that's the one time I've seen it. I can remember when you'd see a cloud of dust, perhaps it'll be a mile away and this would be a flock of sheep. Course, they hadn't had lorries in them days, they drive them on the road and you see old shepherd coming along with a couple of dogs and goodness knows how many sheep! And of course, the roads were all gravel then, no tarmac, see this cloud of dust across there. And er if you see it was coming towards of course you run into them, but if they were going the other way course the dust still keep going. But but of course this was many years ago. Never see a flock of sheep on the road now. It's all done with cars. You wouldn't like this dairy you wouldn't. It er oh! It used to be occasional or more perhaps, sometimes show time different shows and that. So many sheep or, ha show time see, you see these flocks of shop but now you always Been to a cattle market. That's a long time ago because se the roads have been tarmacked for goodness knows how long now! I can remember when the first bit of tarmac was put on a road round here and that down here at Upton bypass and all Oh yes! what they call Upton bypass. Yeah. Oh it was er cry over war wound! Oh! Horses will never be able to stand on it! It's slippery and that. What a state they were in then! My father had er, horses at that time and my uncle out at Holt, he had some horses they were talking about this one day and uncles would say well a horse didn't work nearly as hard with that road's were nice and solid. Father said well it's, it's so slippery they can't stand on them. But it wasn't, it wasn't slippery see, but they thought it would be. Yeah. An oh! I can remember when that Upton bypass, when it was done the cry there was about that! Mm. Course, it it used to be the old rough gravel road. Can you remember Ascot Road? Mm? Ascot Road? Ascot, oh! Er no The little shack Mm. then, it was meant to be the oldest house. Mm. No. No. Do you know what I'm saying? Yeah. No? Yeah. Oh yeah. Aye, aye, aye, aye. Just off Clarendon Road, dad. Eh? Just off Clarendon Road. Clarendon Road? Er ooh yes! Clarendon Road, yeah. Course I ye , I walked up the top of Clarendon Road there when a I was first going out to work up there old Bill . Yeah. Mm. I can remember that. Well Mm. it's a road that goes through there to Swingdale Road and there's a little place in there. Little blue and white wooden hut. Mhm. It was. I dunno. Over my uncle er old Harry he had a house around Clarendon Road er oh I dunno! There wasn't many houses there at that time. Mm mm. We built our house there. Mm? Erm it was meant to be the oldest house in erm Broadstone Ah? and we built our hou , not, bought the plot of land and built our own house on it. Well old Harry shared with my uncle he had his house and he bought a piece of land on the bottom of his garden and he built wall on his or this piece along the bottom of his garden, but er I couldn't tell you, it wasn't very far up the road. But er yeah I know. But I haven't been up to cla Clarendon Road for some time now. Er ha! There used to be a a house on the end of the common up at Clarendon Road, the opposite side oh! Er old Mrs I dunno, but th , anyway there was only this one old house up in the common and er I went up there one time with horse and take a couple of pigs from there down to Wimborne market. But I suppose the old house has pulled down under pressure and built on now but that was the only house going up through there in them days. That was a very old house! Wimborne market's supposed to be old. Mm? Wimborne market must be very old! Oh Lord, yes! Course we , Wimborne cattle market is finished now isn't it? I went to a cattle market in Mm. Devon Mm. with my aunt. Ah yeah. Er ha ! Wimborne market every Tuesday and Wimborne horse sale every other Friday. Used to have horse sale every fortnight, see every other Friday. Ha! You wouldn't think that there was a enough business to want a horse sale once a fortnight would you? But mm. Course, it was horses in them days, not motorcars. I can remember first motorcar that we drove in old Charlie 's. Old Charlie's car wooden spokes, wooden wheels solid tyres and he used to sit up right in there same as I am now, like in a box and the old chauffeur was the chauffeur driving along. And I suppose they go along about I don't expect they do about six miles an hour. Just, chug, chug, chug, chug. At least it was some other form of transport than a horse. Oh yes! Gave the horses a bit of a rest. Mm. Er er er er er er I would think the mo , motorcar nowadays can go up to something like two hundred odd miles now is it? Yeah. Mm. And when you see them racing on the television! Mm. Oh yeah. Ah! But don't matter what it is everything is increasing in speed. Now you see in my days on the railway sixty miles an hour was a good speed for a train it di it didn't reckon to do much more than that see. I know er, down at Corfe Junction or a one road across or one another across or there was one road going to Wimborne, one going to Broadstone, up road and down road. And of course, they had these signs up about la up close to a signal er twenty, twenty five or thirty or whatever it was, that was miles an hour, they were supposed to reduce to that. And er I can remember one day a driver, Len his name was and he er he said to the inspector, oh he says er I've been through Corfe Junction he said at sixty miles an hour! What! Ooh he said, you don't wanna make a song about it! But he said, I have done. And er course, that where the restrictions was on see at the and of course, after that, a few years after that, of course take no notice of it now. It all goes on the same. Er er it were just the same on a motorcycle the faster he'll go the better they'd like it! It's still the same nowadays isn't it? You get the youngsters that hare off down the road . Mm. Ah. What's this, the news on now Margaret? Yeah. Oh! Do you want it? Sorry? Do you want the news? I don't mind. Mm. If you'd like to put it on a little louder. I think we'll be away dad because Ah? it's coming in quite foggy. Is it? Yeah. Mm. You got that er, ticket Margaret. Yes, I'll get your si , your things for you tomorrow. Ah. Well I hope you've been able to pick up a bit of something but I'm not very good at it myself cos old days and old times. Just casual talking. He said he well he said Yeah. course, cars. You'll have enjoyed doing it won't you dad? Yeah. Yeah, cos I'm ont' other. I said er uncle Cecil made that cabinet there didn't he Margaret? We're leaving that shit hole of a country! What was it like? Yeah, Simon said there was a Crappy! Simon said there was a dead cat er outside your first hotel and the brothel across the road . Yes. That one. Ha! How did you know it was a brothel? How many do you mean ? Well it was quite obvious! That queer, that queer in the brothel! In the brothel. Brothel. Oh it was Yeah! so funny ! ! About the brothel ! Come on! He'd been talking to these erm Greek blokes and they invited him into this bar for erm a drink, all these sex and he went, and he went in and You know like when you have where you have like a flat between you if you're a student. Yeah. Yeah. But if other person changes So you can share. their mind, something Yeah. like that then Like you could be having fun. When somebody can't keep up with their Oh yeah! Oh yeah! during the holiday. Oh yeah, and you say Yeah. how's ? Like, this is what Becky was saying, it's like have you ? And you say I'm gonna move out, you know. And you try and find a place but you can't find one but you said you're moving out so you've got to go along with it. You're constantly and a motorway going through your house so they give you less than the pro than the market value Yeah , value for it. value for it. Yeah. Mm. People that have come in contact with him so should be Sally Army's one ! social workers. Yeah I know. Ha! Ha! Supposed to be. Yeah. Sally Army. Everyone, everybody's They all know all about that! helping on the What was, mm mm? street because they Yeah! Yeah! money for a cup water. of tea! Yeah. So everybody's sort Yeah. of, everybody Police. sort of has to walk past them. Police! Police, yeah, we said all people on And there's all those people that have the big signs that say Ambulances. Oh yeah. the Standard, you think, oh! You know ! Especially on the underground. Yeah! Half of them could be really rich and just don't think Ya. there's nobody there. Erm Cos on some of them, wouldn't it, you do have them really rich! Well apparently, they do that every day No, apparently some people do it every day. Wait! Pe , up to London They get about a hu , they get about a hundred a day This poor guy's got a day off! just from begging and things! No, cos one of them kept going up to London for the we week and then went back home at the weekends and he had this lovely house! You know Yeah. kept travelling up and down. Yeah. Should write to railway Erm then. Yeah! Transport places. We got some of them before. No you don't know Right! . What does it take Well any for one or two or Hospitals. and you start being unwilling to do Yeah. bloody do anything! Hospitals which Yeah. deal with them. Oh you put hospitals Lost my, lost my door key ! Yeah people getting fed up and the hospitals And erm yeah, something like that, yeah! getting, getting, into the real world and they Yeah. Yeah. and they can't Yeah. get out. Erm People getting out mental hospitals. That's what Simmone just said ! Oh yeah! That's what I just said ! Oh right. I'm sorry! Yeah erm Actually I couldn't stand that, I don't think! Yeah. Yeah. Mm. Either that or they've been proved well People who've been let out of jail as well. Oh yeah! Yeah. and passed out. Er marriage break up is one cause. Oh yeah! Mm. The woman might get kicked out by the ex-wife or your boyfriend or Yeah. Mm. the husband. People with . Go bankrupt or Well why, why can't we Yeah. some animals! Oh yeah! Squirrels who've had their trees cut down ! Yeah they go, I'm a squirrel! Hee hee hee! Ee! Ee! Ee! The Lion ran away from the zoo because he wasn't get fed enough! The panda ran away because he wasn't getting enough! Oh no! We're not going to have Have you heard that joke? the joke now! Shh! Have I now? It's a really good joke! I know. No! Don't! Yo you might have ! There's this panda and he's really bored with, I mean he's, he's getting no sex so he breaks out of erm London Zoo to go off and find a partner. And he walks into this brothel and, there's this prostitute and well business is not going well she's going to undre , yes you do probably, Yeah. so anyway, she hires so he hires this prostitute and they, they go upstairs and he gets a bit hungry so sarnie and they get down to the serious business Shh! and he won't in the tree And tell me, tell me this how did you leave home? I do drink socially. Cos we haven't got much time. I am . Yeah, what sort of wedding? Why did you, why did you leave home? How did I left home? I didn't leave home. I, put me in a detention centre because I was shoplifting and I didn't like it there so I left! Tt tt tt tt tt tt tt tt! What is your name? Sarah. From London? Where do you come from? I come from London. Oh! That's very original! And where do you normally live? Where are you homeless now? I'm, in Manchester at the moment. I knew you were gonna say Manchester! How old are? Have you cut holes in your trousers to put sixteen. big triangles of cloth in and turn them into flares then ? No! Not quite! Do you go begging? Well sometimes, but sometimes I just pickpocket it's much easier that way. Have you turned to prostitution as a way of getting money? No, I don't think that's a really good idea, it's not safe. It's not . Do you sleep in shop doorways or do you go to a hostel so sometimes? Well, I haven't got much money but well sometimes I do go to hostels, yeah but, most of the time I just sleep anywhere I can find a shelter. Bus shelters are quite helpful. Have you ever thought about going back home? I was gonna say that! No. I don't i if it would be no point. But why? So you're saying it's better on the streets than at home? Yeah. Is it worse You're giving up before you've even tried! Do you think you should try? What is the point in trying? Because you might find out it works and then you wouldn't have But my mother wouldn't care about me! How do you know that? How can you be so sure? Cos she beats me up! Fine! Can't say anything to that! Well that could just be a sort of way of life. I mean, when people get beaten up when they're younger it me this is true, I saw it on a T V programme Carry on. they can erm it can affect them in their later life and they hit out at people to show their affection. Mm! Don't believe that! She never said a nice word to me in my life! Haven't you got any other relatives where you could go? No, I wouldn't go near them! They're all snotty nosed little Mm. Don't you But not think you're being a little thoroughly class conscious? No. I think you've got some, some attitude problems! They don't care about me , so why should I care about them! Yes, I think you've got a serious attitude problem! Right, go easy then. Oh! Who wants to go next anyway? Oh well, shall we go to Becky's ? The loonies? Well what do you think about her then? Come on? Ha! Ha ! Right! How old are you? I'm thirty three thank you! And erm where do you come from? Surrey. How long have you been homeless? Er three years. Why are you homeless? Because I used to be in a mental institution but they said I was well so I'm allowed out now. But I haven't got anywhere to go to. Mm. Haven't you got any living relatives that you could go and see? No. Whenever I phone them up they all pretend to have emigrated to Australia. Oh! Surely the place would have the mental institution would have set you up with a home or something when you left? No. Where did they put you then? They can't have just turfed you out? They can and they do I think. Oh dear. Why don't you pretend to be still mad and go back? I don't think she needed to tell you! And where do you spend your days? I mean, do you do you sort of wander round the street jabbering to people like this? No, actually Number one, number two or number three? Or er number three. I make sure I ride on every bus going and sit next to somebody who really doesn't want to sit next to me! How do you get the money to pay for the bus fares? I ! No, I just sort of accost people and talk to them and normally they pay me to go away! Have you ever thought of prostitution? I'm not that bad! Excuse me! Are you male or female I'd just like to ask? I've forgotten which ! Er, do you get any cooked meals a day? No. No. What do you eat? Don't you ever go down to the hostels or down Well or sometimes? I want to know what you eat? I mean I hadn't thought about that ! Well it's,sa Samantha's going to have a go now. ! Who else is gonna be a counsellor I will. Oh well. It's mine. Is it mine? Oh that's okay then. Do you want to? You don't have to be homeless by the way. No. Don't you? I No. I want to someone and I don't want to be homeless! You co , you could be a social worker or something. Alright , I'll be a social worker. Okay. You could be the minister in charge of Hello! Hello! you'll be good at that! What's your name then? Er, my name is erm Mr . Are you homeless or No, she's a social worker. No I'm not homeless I'm gonna try and help you are You're going to try and help us then are you? If I can, yeah. What do you think it is that causes homelessness? Well, we've just had a discussion about this in the hall. Oh right! No. Erm a lot of things. Have you, have you encountered many problems with homelessness? Are you A lot of problems. Is that, is that your erm main area? Lots and lots of problems! Yeah. Can I ask a personal question? As a social worker do you have a beard? Yeah! I thought so! Oh dear! Yes you , and do you wear do you wear sandals? No, I wear shoes. They're a bit cold when you're walking out on the streets. Erm are you, how old are you by the way? Erm, I'm forty three. Forty three. Do you live in a big house or what kind of house No. do you live in? I live in , I live in a three bedroom semi-detached house Have you got a family? on the outskirts of London. Have you got any family? You got a family? Erm, erm no, I'm divorced. Divorced? Ha , any children? What sort of er Erm , two. Two children? And they're with my wife. How old are they? Erm three and nine. Girls? Boys? Erm, two girls. Mhm. What sort of things do you do to help the homeless? Well basically erm, I go around in some of the streets and try and help people, families who have missed they've lost their chi , erm lost people and try and reunite them. What if they don't want to be reunited, can't that cause problems? Yes it can. I find some people on the streets are quite like, pigheaded and they don't really want to go back for some reason really. Mm. But maybe they've got problems that they can't go back for? Yeah, they have got problems and that's why erm, people like us come along and try and help them. Have any of Wha the homeless people actually ever been taken into care, like foster and ah, adoption? Erm, yes quite a few times actually. Especially when abuse is inc be erm Abuse. Abuse. where people have been Aha. abused. Do they run away again though? Sometimes that is the case. Unfortunately. Ah! Very good! Anyone else? I haven't been. Yes I'd to talk to her. You want to do it? I want Hello! to have a say ! How am I? I'm alright thank you. Is yo , what's your name? And how old are you? Forty. And what do you do? Me? I don't do anything! Haven't you got a job? No! Do you o , come from Essex or something ? Yes! An Essex girl! No! I don't live in Essex, I live in Surrey! And erm, are you homeless then? Mm? Homeless? Are you kidding! No I am not! or Surrey. Well, have you got anything to link with these homeless people? Yes! They accost me in the street every time I walk every time I walk down for money, they're Do you e terrible! Do you ever give them any money? Of course I don't give them any money! Bearing in mind that you're rich enough to live in Surrey, and some people can't even afford a roof over their head don't you think you have a moral obligation towards these people? It's not my problem! Yeah. If they're stupid enough to be homeless! Well maybe sometimes it's not their fault. Most of the time people don't want to be Yeah. on the street. But how do you know that? I mean, how could you be so sure it isn't their fault? They tell us. Well those people out on the streets tell me that all the time. I mean, have you seen the reports? Of course I've seen the reports! I'm not blind! Well the majority of them are a , abused or get thrown out of mental centres, I mean, some of them just run away from home because they want to and that's only a minority, lots of them have I mean very good reasons! Well it's still not my problem is it? Yeah! It's everybody's problem! Stop voting Conservative you stupid old bag! Yeah , and if you vote for There's nothing wrong with being Conservative! I i if Labour ca party came in the unemployment would be, unemployment, homelessness would be Have you got a family? even worse! Of course I've got a family! How large? If you don't mind me asking? I have three children! How old are they? And have any of them contemplated running away? Well how do I know! I would ! There's one's fourteen, one's sixteen, and one's nineteen. Are they all still living at home? Yes. Yeah. Well apart from the nineteen year he's gone to university. Oh! Which one may I ask? Cambridge, of course! Did he get in on merit or did you just pay a phenomenally am , large amount of cash for him? Merit! Well Yeah sure! very hard to believe I think! But if you go and look down in your statements now just to check that ! Go on , it's your turn now. I want to know how you actually do that. Oh yes you did! I will. I will. Go on. Er, I'm doing it with Go on, check your bank's homeless, okay? Oh! You haven't done it! You haven't Hello. What's your name? And where do you come from. This sounds like a quiz game show Blind date! or something! Hey! What's your name? Where do you come from? Oh I'm ! And where are you homeless? Right. Paul. And, how old are? Twenty. And what's your name? Sarah? Sarah what? . That's not very good. No, you can't start using real people! Oh sorry! I didn't realise. I didn't realise Oh yeah. it was. It was the first name that came into my head! Sarah . Oh! Yeah! Sure! No. Sarah Okay. Anyway. Okay. What's your name? Sarah what? Sarah Smith. And how long have you been homeless? About six months. Why are you homeless? Well I used to share a, share this flat with my mate and erm you know, she got a bit out of hand, she kept bringing all these people home and she kept having these parties and it was really difficult for me to study cos I used to go well I still try to go to college, but erm you know, it was really hard for me to study and made my life really, really difficult! Isn't it more difficult now though, if you're homeless? Ya. How do you get time to study? Well, you know I, just doesn't really matter any more, the point is surviving. But I mean, when I was living with her we just had all these arguments cos, you know, I just never got any peace! There are sometimes I could find this quiet little place somewhere and just think, you know, it's really nice. But, what about your family? Can't you go home? Well, I could do but I, you see, I haven't got the money to get home and you know Where do you live then? I live up in Scotland somewhere. Somewhere? Oh great! That's very Inverness? Aberdeen? No, some just erm Somewhere! Do you beg? By Loch Lomond. Do you beg? Oh yeah! Well, sometimes, but you see you know, people aren't willing to give anymore. And there's so many homeless people that Mm. you know you try to Do you blame them? Well yes! Of course I do! I mean, if it wasn't for them and the way they voted! I mean Oh! So you think that maybe a, a labour government wou , could solve all these problems? No not really. God! I mean, no government could. Erm what can we ? It's got so out of hand , nobody could! What do you eat? Erm anything I can find really. Marks and Spencer's sandwich! Ho how long is it since how long is it since you've had a cooked meal? And Muller yoghurt. Erm I was lucky erm I like Muller yoghurt! place on Sunday and they gave me a meal. Oh! Delicious aren't they? Do you ever got to church? Which is your favourite? No. I don't know. No. So you're not religious at all? I don't know. I like crunchy one tha , that one. I used to be, but you know it's nothing re I haven't tried the crunchy one. I al , I u I find it difficult to believe in it any more after what's it done me, you know. Cos I like the . I like the peach mainly. And it's really difficult to believe in things like that? Do you want me to done to you? Yeah. We got one person now but Well you know feeling er Ee ah! Just one person. Ya! Yeah , Dawn. Yeah. You should, you should only have about one person Yes. like that. I've, you know, I feel I've trusted him all my life you know, an now I find myself in this situation. It's difficult! Thank you very much. Now here we have another girl here. Hello! No we bloody don't! Yes we do Dawn! You do! You do! or what Dawn! You have to do it! If the rest of us do, you do! Hello! I'm not really keen to do this! What's your name? And Dawn. where do you come from? And where do you come from? From Worthing. What's your family situation. Dead boring isn't it? And what's your favourite male? No, what's your family situation? Do you like Danger Mouse ? Yes I love Danger Mouse! Mr . . What's your family situation? How do you mean? Have you got a family? Are you living at home? Are you living at home? Are you homeless? Are you social worker? Are you a Yeah I'm, I have a policeman? yes, I'm living at home but I'm also married and I've been married three times before, and I've got six children now. Sounds like hundred! Except , half have them have gone away which is nice cos I didn't like them anyway! You don't seem to have a very caring attitude Oh I see! for your family. No. No I haven't really. No. I don't like them! So what happened? You left them? Are you surprised that they run away? How many people i , in your, are there actually in your household at his moment in time? Is this including milk men or not ? Nine and a dog. Where does the other nine gone? So there's you and your partner Well he sort of left. and seven children? How do you work that out? You said you had six children Children and three of them had run away. three of them had run away. I didn't say three of them had run away! Yes you did! You did! You did! I didn't! I said half of them. Yes, which is three ! Well that is three ! Yeah, but there's a difference isn't there, between saying half and three? Yes I have only got three children left. A daughter and So how come there's so Just listen! people in the house then? Is it Aha. your grandmother there? Are you having to sleep in the Your mother? ? people in the house! Look! Right. I told you I'm still living at home, right? Yeah. This is , my mother, my father, my sister my brother, me, my husband, one, two, three children. Oh really! And the dog! And the dog, yeah. And Woof! Whisky. Woof! What sor What sort of dog? Do yo A mongrel. Right. And do you get on very well with all of your family but, actually living there? Not really, no. No. Can't you afford to find you know, your own house or rent a place? Would you, if you had the chance Well not really, no. find your children that had run away? Probably not. It's their choice to run away. How old were they when they did run away? Mm one was seventeen, one was six, and Making the choice ! No. No. My hu , my six year old ran away, but Yeah but when then came back, and then ran away again So, aren't you concerned him? he tried to go out the door but she reached him back, but she hasn't Aren't you concerned about how he's living? gone to him! Erm Ah! Ah! Ah! And how he's surviving? He might even be dead for all you know! That's sweet! Don't you care? Well Aren't you a bit, the slightest worried Why You're not concerned? Why did you have children then if you weren't prepared to Yeah. look after them suitably? Erm my religion forbid the use of contraception. Could we Ya. have that off. Yeah. I think everybody I haven't got anything else to say so could I be chairperson please? Yes. Yeah. Order ! Thank you ! Thank you. I feel this meeting is straying from the point! What we must achieve is a balance. True, the merits of the squirrels for the environment are very erm meritus yet we must also consider what's best for the people. Are these retirement homes necessary? Yes! No! No they're not! No they're not! There are loads and loads of empty office buildings which could easily be converted into very nice retirement properties. And think of all the houses on the market at the moment that aren't being sold! These and Are they Excuse me! purposely built for people with disabilities who are getting quite physically disabled and they are desperately needed! Indeed! Yes. Yes. But you And also an office Well I block are not, they put in the centre of town! These retirement homes need to be in the country, they need to be I'm not You're disturbing the wildlife! surrounded by the natural environment. And you can't get You say about that how can they go in that shop? They couldn't buy . Instead it If they're beco comes round! If they're becoming as disabled as you think they are, they won't be allowed just to go down the way to the shops will they if the nearest shops are twenty miles down the road! The retir , the retirement homes are being strategically placed in that position enabling people to be in a real central position so that they can get to all of the amenities they need. But if they're in a real central position they can't be out in the country Country! because you've chopped all the country down! So how can they be both Have you, have you asked the people near the country and near the shop? I presume you've asked the old people whether they want their countryside to be destroyed or not? Well of course we would! How do you think they feel they live in a place Have you , have you asked them? Yes! Have you actually did an opinion poll? Shh! Shh! Shh! Yes! You've asked? Does that mean Had a go on the machine If you count the number of characters characters and the different situations. Different problems. Yeah. things. . We've had one or two people homeless once Yeah. Yeah. I'll be homeless! So what does everybody else do? I must admit, I like the one I liked that one. Oh no! That'll be good! Hello Mr microphone! Erm this is hard. Erm I don't know what else we can do. ! ! But er have you got to finish off the tapes by erm Wednesday? I don't have to finish off er No, not by Wednesday. When do you have to have them done by? She's ringing me on Wednesday to tell me when she's gonna collect them. Oh. Right. We could This week, you'll probably manage to do all them. I think we should have one or two hundred people. Yeah. And er we, what else do we have, a social worker? Could have policemen,social worker, police hospitals, some of the general And hospitals dro , drug overdose? Yeah. Ooh! That would be a good one wouldn't it? Yeah! Parents. Parents. Er I think we ! Oh yeah! Oh! Great! Hello Mr microphone! Are you a boy, a girl or an it? Are you alright ? That was so funny ! I might have a conversation for the person on the other end who listens to it. Oh that was funny! Beck can be different. Will you? Yeah. I'll be different. Say something into there. Totally mad! What is it? Sponge. Sponge cake? Has it got jam Er on? strawberry. Erm I don't like strawberry. You don't like strawberry. Do want some of this sponge? Yes. Wo! There's a there's a little bit of jam on that don't worry about that. Where did you find your history files then? Did you go At school. It turned up in lost property. Mm. Oh it's really annoying! I lost my locker key. You don't want to tell Miss cos she'll go and I had it yesterday and I came here and Karen was hurrying me up and I must have dropped it somewhere. I can't find it now. Everything looks nice and burnt! Yeah,it doesn't matter ! You what? Surprise me! School canteens are really crap! I forgot my lunch aren't I terrible! You gotta make something? Still recording Simmone? Pardon? Still recording? Even in maths? Yeah. No we're not. Why's that little light on then Simmone ! Will you shut, oh ho ! Come forward. Michelle, where are you sitting? I don't know at the moment. Go and sit by the window. Sam. Sam. Whilst we're er whilst we're waiting for her can I just look at that book please? No! Please! I'm using it to ho , I'm holding at it. Becky! I'm not in the queue now you're pushing me! Okay, here we go! And where were you yesterday evening Simmone? Yes it was on pause! Alright, then Alright! why was the tape going then? There was this panda and he was just la Shh! Shh! Shh! And it ke Shouldn't mess about round here! And he was at London Zoo And he was and he frustrated and he wants to get out. and he was very frustrated! Sexually frustrated. And so he was erm he decided to break out zoo. and go and find a lover. So, he broke out and went into this He found a lover. brothel Sorry! and he managed to pick up this prostitute, who only took cos business was slow. And they went upstairs Although he's only a panda, and they never manage do they? What? Although they can Pandas! They manage it! Is that why you don't They always have erections on them! Yeah! ! What am I thinking? Come on! With this prostitute And anyway, the panda went upstairs with this prostitute and erm well he was a bit peckish so they had something to eat. And erm, after that they got down to the serious business! And, when they were, the was panda was about to leave, you know, he's all ready and the prostitute thought well well he can't realise so she got th , her dictionary out and looked up pand , looked for prostitute one who avails herself for money. And not to out done, the panda got out his own dictionary and looked up panda, one that eats, shoots then leaves! Ah! Ah! And leaves. I like that joke, it's funny! They're good panda jokes! It's silly! That's why everyone's laughing then ! I like it! I like it! Yes I like it ! It's really sort of oh no, kind of joke. It is sick! Yeah but nobody else thinks that. What do you think of it? It's sick! What do you think? It's a It's totally , absolutely wonderful! Yes Simmone. Unbelievable! Ha Ah! Unbelievable! You're going to have a Hilarious! Well there you go! That is the panda joke revisited! Aren't you glad you got Simmone to record all this for you! Well today is Wednesday and we start the day with a thrilling lesson on Well what do you think Mr microphone? Do you prefer Eugenie or Beatrice? I think they're both pretty crummy. I happen to prefer Beatrice. Beatrice sounds like characters out of those nineteen twenties B B C historical drama things with the Oh yeah. with the silly hats and long dresses and the beads. And those stupid beads. But at least it's not pretentious like Eugenie. any figure whatsoever. And people doing the Charleston. Yeah. Pity they can't record video on this it would be quite amusing. Be Bertie Wooster keeps getting accidentally engaged to. Yeah . Mm. Oh I really like this, can I look? Yeah sure. She says she's sorry it's predictable and stereotyped. But then so is Ann. It's an icon. That is, mister I'm an incredibly boring guy. And I can't Have you done any of that essay yet? No not yet. Good. I, I hate the way you do essays How are you? Have you had a reply from the yet? What? Have you had a reply from the yet? No. He's probably getting them all in and then sending out all the replies, just speak into that. Well what is this? Don't fondle Don't fondle it talk to it . Well what is it? Just talk. Oh that's sweet isn't it? Yes everyone's been saying it's sweet . But would you be recorded on it What are you what are you recording? I'm not, it's Simmone's. Yes but when the microphone's there do we really talk like in everyday conversations? We say silly things like hello Mr microphone. Another twelve days till I get my canoe. No but you don't when you don't realize it's recording, you Why is Vicky killing you in twelve days? No Oh my canoe in two da in twelve Oh right. days. Zoey was What? She's ordered it you see Ah and it was meant to come in two weeks. Did you get in the canoe exhibition? Yes I got a buoyancy aid in the puddle. I got a very good deal on the buoyancy aid. They're seventy six quid new, I paid thirty five for mine. Is it new? Is it new or secondhand? It's new but it's old colours, it's old stock Ah. and so this guy was selling it for forty, Vicky ordered her canoe there and he was quite a young man and so alright she said hi big boy how about letting me have it for thirty five if you're willing to ha are you willing to haggle I mean my friend did buy a whole canoe he sort of Oh yes she didn't buy half a canoe . he sort of smiled and said oh okay I'll let you have it for thirty five and I said done. Ah! So that was quite good. No not really. Well there you go. Star Trek tonight Ooh brother turning up apparently. Who? brother Yes, precisely. And it's Morse tonight, brand new series. Oh at least it's a new series, I hate all the old ones. Yeah, I don't like the repeats cos I can vaguely remember who did it. You know what You know who did it. you can vaguely remember who did them, mm. But not quite and it's really annoying. This is the one where Morse's ex turns up. His what? Morse's ex . But we still don't find out what his first name is. No. It begins with E and that's about all we know. Does it? Emille. No that's too that's not English enough. How do you know it begins with E? Eric. Oh the half a bee Alex is Eric. Oh Eric. a tweedley-dum a tweedley-dee, Eric the half a bee . How does the last verse go? That's my favourite. Oh it's a thing about I loved him I loved him carnally . Oh it's something carnally semi-carnally Cyril Connolly? No semi- carnally, Cyril Connolly Yeah I can't do that bit either. I can whistle it occasionally. irritating length. Oh I've got loads of things It is. that are an irritating But the one album I've ever had that isn't an irritating is it's, each side of that tape is forty five minutes long and you can fit it, apart from about er right at the very end of one song you can fit the whole album on a C ninety. How's that for you? If you reduced the spacing you could probably even fit the end of that song on. Yeah. is good because each side of that is about half an hour a weird tape actually I didn't know any of the songs except oh have you heard that Mr 's become a nun? Not a nun a monk. What? What ? Oh yes I heard that. This came from the sixth form. Oh well it's co probably complete and utter bollocks. I know he was interested in monastic architecture but what a load of bollocks. What? Mr has become a monk. Jesus ! What a load of bollocks. I wouldn't put it past him actually . Who told you that Erm Carole in the sixth form. Well she's meant to be a real bitch anyway. Yes she is. So I told them you can bitch about found somebody at last. Ah yes we can bitch about Mr and his flat cap and his cravat. I think he must be gay, I mean going into a monastery and not having anything to do with women and wearing a cravat monastic a architecture I can't say that. Architecture. Architecture. Architecture. He's a complete Wanker. Yes. It's a pity you can't see hand signals on this thing. They're a lot more expressive than words. What are? Gestures. Sometimes. Or body language Tt mm he's colour blind as well. Yeah. Is he? Oh look at these lovely blue flowers. And what colour were they, pink? Red or pink or something, I wasn't there but A pinky red a dark pink actually. How many tapes have you finish have you done on this? I've taped five now. That's very good. Excellent. How long have you got for them? Most resplendent. I don't know, she's coming tonight. Come on there's some of the really silly ones left now if you know how to use them. I don't, I can never work out what What about bodacious Oh I'd forgotten that. I can never work out What? sing and Wesley. We really need a tape and Wesley were lovers Will wanted to give Wes something warm as a special present an officer's red uniform He saw a sign for a shuttle race officer prizes red. He couldn't find Wes in his room so to his mother said bom bom bom bom tell Wesley I love him, tell Wesley I need him tell Wesley I may be late, I've something to do that cannot wait. He took a shuttle to the asteroid belt, he was the highest ranker there they started the race, to the belt they drove at a deadly pace no-one knows what happened that star date but we always knew poor Wes would have to wait as they pulled Will from the smoking wreck they heard him say in a terrible state bom bom bom bom tell Wesley I love him bom bom bom bom tell Wesley I need him, tell Wesley not to my love for him is never weak . Will wanted to give Wes something warm as a special present an officer's red uniform He saw a sign for a shuttle race officer ship red. He couldn't find Wes in his room so to his mother said bom bom bom bom tell Wesley I love him, tell Wesley I need him tell Wesley I may be late, I've something to do that cannot wait. He took a shuttle to the asteroid belt, he was the highest ranker there they started the race, to the belt they drove at a deadly pace no-one knows what happened that star date but we always knew poor Wes would have to wait. As they pulled Will from the smoking wreck they heard him say in a terrible state bom bom bom bom tell Wesley I love him bom bom bom bom tell Wesley I need him, tell Wesley not to my love for him is never weak . To be continued. He was, he was more like a pantomime character, how, character you'd see on the stage Mm. in a pantomime, I thought it was really good. Except he those sort of he is now in direct confron competition with Darth Vader, my all time favourite villain. Yeah. Darth Vader? any competition . She fancies Darth Vader? No I don't. fancies Dangerman One person I do not fancy is Luke Skywalker Ooh he'd really annoy me We reckon he's still a virgin then he very nearly commits incest with his sister And Carrie Fisher as Leia, oh my! Oh it's the bit I really hate is the the more you tighten your grip the more star systems will slip through your fingers. Yeah. Oh And the bit with Harrison Ford when he gets frozen, do you remember when Harrison gets and in the last one Oh oh oh in the last one that she's chained up to that big fat slug thing and they're all being pushed over the edge of that big pit I love Hans Solo though. Oh he's gorgeous. Solo. Mm. fancy him What's that big thing that goes round with Hans Solo? The Wookie Wookie Is that the Wookie Yeah. I used to love that. Star Trek's something that will never die, I mean not Star Trek erm Dar Star Trek won't either really. Star Wars. Neither of them will die I used to like it when I was young I wasn't really good when I first saw it, now I think, oh dear, My brother has still got all the figures. Collects them and then he started pulling their heads off when he got fed up with them. These are the ones that fall apart when Do you know I, one one episode of the Star Trek, the new Star Trek they spend million dollars. It takes them, and you know the one where you have the, the ship, it's travelling through space A million dollars just for Wesley's well ha you, what you have is you have erm the ship, first of all you have the ship, it's a plain ship on a white background, then you have the lights on a black background and then you have that blue bit in the middle but it takes three shots What are you talking about? to get that ship that's moving. Oh God! But it ta What? Star Trek, it takes one million dollars to film just erm to make just one episode of Star Trek. I think it's a great programme mind you. Mm. It's a it's all, I love you know Kirk Oh I know it's You know there's hockey today, I can't go cos I've to erm go and see Mrs . Okay. I'm really sorry If we haven't got eight people we can't play Oh dear what a pity, we'll have to pass this one up! I'm shattered! because I'm playing this one. You know me who's got out of all the others, well I'm playing. eight players I run away from the ball Mrs and you can vouch for that can vouch for that cos she's seeing everyone at Oh bloody hell! We're four short. We can't play then, oh dear! Oh dear what a shame! What a pity! What a shame we can't play. Yeah I think you ought to forfeit it. Yeah, I would. Because I saw Yeah well we haven't got enough players. They say minim we've got to be minimum of nine players, we've only got eight. Well the point is if we can't find enough players We'll say we've only got seven and we'll get away with forfeiting it. Well we can't, nobody else will play. There's no-one else Who is playing? Me. There's you, Michelle, Rebecca, Rebecca They can't say they haven't got their P E kit on them cos they've had P E today. Great. Are we going to R E then? Yeah, the delightful R E. can't play. It'll be great fun. I think everyone's leaving though, they don't No she hasn't, I had this odd dream last night. You were trying to ba you know how dusty all dusty we were supposed to clean the room, we tried to hoover them instead. What happened ? The leaves came off. Oh. Well I'm not really surprised. Will you stop waving that thing in front of microphone. totally useless I'm fucked off with you. And I'm totally fucked off with I was wondering Yeah, Yeah, I have. What did you get? I did the ones, I've done the ones that were before that and thank you for taking part in and if they think I'm taking part in another they must be absolutely joking Senior badge holders eleven B or form room, meeting room twenty nine Thursday Sod it. to sort out assemblies and fundraising. Assemblies and fundraising. Ha, sounds like fun. Ooh! You must be so happy to get Just makes you glad you're not a senior badge holder doesn't it ? Mm. Yeah. Yes. My mother actually wants to come to the presentation So does mine! Oh mine doesn't. Mine wants lots of photographs. I said you want to vote if you are Mine don't want to come at all, my dad said good god that sounds like a waste of time. under the sink. Right! Shh Quiet please. Stephanie off you go. Simmone Have we got Zoey? No. Tights were on the boiler, I'd forgotten and run all the way ups down again Sacha Karen. Karen I walked out the door We haven't got Zoey then? and his friend's walking up, Denise. Present. rush back inside and brush my hair . so I just walked off and walked calmly by them. So we're missing Amy, Zoey and Sam yeah? Er well who were you supposed to give that to? Not me I'm sure it's not me. Well who do you order the photographs off? Mr holds Oh for that! Did you see ? Yeah. And then saw them too and so did Sarah and Sophie and Claire and and half a dozen other people who walked past. Right can we get these slips back about the erm presentations thing. I'm losing my voice. The only thing that's good that's happened since I left school is I'm five pounds richer. Exactly. That's my work permit, but I've got a letter which I'll be getting tonight Right. the essay, what did she get? Did she actually say that to you,? What did she get? Well she got a, oh she had a , and I've got a watch,watch type of thing. I won three videos, two for me and one for my dad erm , and Brasso and a thing What? to keep your bike clean, you know a tin of Brasso Oh erm and some more Trolls, two more ones? pink hair and one's wearing a mac with little wellies and the, the other one's a ballerina, and it's wearing Can you imagine? A Troll that's a ballerina . Then she got It doesn't look anything like Mr Bean. Oh she kept meaning to tell everyone about the bike cos er she went through all the lists of her stuff and going oh and I got a bike So er yeah what's, what's, what's not cool? No, no I'm not saying anything now. Come on,J Janine where are you going for French? Ooh darling I love you. Hello sweetie-pie Hello. Come round to my house tonight nine o'clock mm Oh my god what am I saying? What? Well I'm such a well cool girl. Pistachio nut, but my friends call me peanut for short. Bye bye. Try saying Janine without saying aargh! Hello my name's Ker, wanker Try saying Tamsin without saying tosser Hey are any of you in this er science group? Yeah. Have you done his work yet? Yeah. Oh! The last question though is really confusing . You shouldn't have that at school. Yes I should, I've got a letter. Ooh! Why, what is it then? Hey are you interviewing me? Hi! Hi I'm Marisha and I'm in , I'd just like to say hi Well why are you recording everybo Yes, hello, good evening, welcome to Talking Sport, and tonight's headlines: Oxford United lose four two at Spurs in the F A Cup, but are by no means disgraced. There are two goals for Martin Foyle, but Spurs' Paul Gascoigne also scores twice and he proves to be their match winner. Elsewhere, there are wins for Thame, Abingdon Town and Milton; Oxford City's long unbeaten run disappears, Witney draw, as do Banbury and Carterton, and the game between Wantage and Bicester ends as a draw, but there are defeats for Abingdon United, Headington and Didcot. In rugby, Bicester are through to the semi-finals of the Provincial Insurance Cup. Well there'll be more on all these games in a moment, first the local classified football results: F A Cup fourth round; Spurs four, Oxford United two. The Beezer Homes League Southern division: Witney one, Canterbury one. The Vauxhall League, division two south; Bracknell one, Abingdon Town two. The South Midland League premier division; Pyrton one, Thame four. The South Midland League Trophy; Shenley and Lowton five, Oxford City two. The Hellenic League; Abingdon United nil, Rayners Lane three; Banbury nil, Almondsbury nil; Carterton two, Swindon Athletic two; Fairford two, Headington Amateurs nil; Shortwood one, Didcot nil; Wantage two, Bicester two. And the Berks and Bucks Intermediate Cup; Fairmile Hospital one, Milton three. Now for a look at the national classified results, here's Hedley Feast. The F A Cup fourth round; Cambridge United two, Middlesbrough nil; Coventry City one, Southampton one; Crew Alexandra one, Rotherham United nil; Liverpool two, Brighton and Hove Albion two; Luton Town one, West Ham United one; Manchester United one, Bolton Wanderers nil, Milwall four, Sheffield Wednesday four; Norwich City three, Swindon Town one; Notts County two, Oldham Athletic nil; Port Vale one, Manchester City two; Portsmouth five, Bournemouth one; Shrewsbury Town one, Wimbledon nil; Tottenham Hotspur four, Oxford United two. Barclay's League division one; Sheffield United one, Derby County nil; division two; Bristol Rovers three, Bristol City two; Leicester City one, Blackburn Rovers three; division three; Bradford City nil, Grimsby Town two; Brentford two, Swansea City nil; Bury nil, Birmingham City one; Exeter City two, Mansfield Town nil; Huddersfield Town one, Fulham nil; Leyton Orient one, Chester City nil; Preston Northend two, Southend United one; division four; Burnley three, Stockport County two; Carlisle United nil, Hereford United one; Chesterfield one, Torquay United one; Halifax Town nil, Darlington nil; Northampton Town two, Aldershot one; Scunthorpe United two, Maidstone United two; Walsall nil, Peterborough United one; Wrexham nil, Blackpool one; York City nil, Hartlepool United nil; the Scottish F A Cup third round; Aberdeen nil, Motherwell one; Airdrionians two, Heart of Midlothian one; Clydebank nil, Ayr one; Dundee one, Brechin nil; Forfar nil, Celtic two; Kilmarnock three, Arbroath two; Partick Thistle nil, Falkirk nil; Wraith Rovers nil, Hamilton Academical one; St Johnstone nil, Berwick Rangers nil; Stirling Albion nil, Morton one; Stranraer one, St Mirren five; the Scottish B and Q League division two; Stenhouse Muir two, Albion Rovers nil; G M Conference; Altrincham three, Kettering two; Barnet two, Bath nil; Boston four, Yeovil nil; Cheltenham one, Runcorn three; Merthyr one, Welling nil; Northwich one, Kidderminster one; Stafford nil, Gateshead one; Sutton nil, Colchester one; Telford three, Fisher one; Wyckham two, Barrow one; the H F S Loans League; Bishop Auckland three, Bangor nil; Frickley three,Ghoul two; Horwich nil, Marine nil; Leek one, Hyde one; Matlock one, Fleetwood one; Morcambe two, Witton nil; Mossley one, Shepshed nil; South Liverpool three, Droylsdon four; Southport one, Gainbsborough nil; Staleybridge two, Chorley one; the Beezer Homes League; Atherston nil, Rugby one; Bromsgrove two, Cambridge City two; Chelmsford nil, Worcester nil; Dorchester nil, Rushton nil; Farnborough five, Gravesend nil; Moregreen three, Burton six; Poole one, Gloucester two; Wealdstone one, Hales Owen two; and finally Weymouth nil, Dover one. Headley Feast with the national classified, one result to change of the local footballs in the Beezer Homes League, southern division, I'm afraid it was a defeat for Witney; Witney one, Canterbury two, that's in the Beezer Homes League southern division; Witney one, Canterbury two. Well our big match today was the F A Cup fourth round up at White Hart Lane; it finished Spurs four, Oxford United two. Reporting on the match, here's Nick Harris: Well the difference between these two sides was a Newcastle born mid-fielder, by the name of Paul Gascoigne; not only did he score two second half goals for the first division club, but he dominated proceedings in mid-field. Not that United disgraced themselves in any way at all, they matched Spurs ball for ball and played some delightful football and an awful lot of courage; they were two nil down when they pulled it back to two one, they were three one down when they pulled it back to three two. They got off to a great start when they almost scored after just two and a half minutes, when Jim Magilton fed Lee Nogan, and his left foot shot was brilliantly saved by Eric Torsvale, tipping the ball all round the post for a corner. But back came Spurs and in the eighth minute, they took the all important lead. So seven minutes of the game gone and a mistake by Andy Melville letting in Gary Lineker, but Spurs take a short corner. Still no goals, it's play to Gascoigne, Gascoigne now still going forward, Gascoigne on the edge of the penalty, looking for the one two, he gets the one two, great tackle there by Les Robinson, there's still a chance to Spurs Steve Foster , chance now — and it's a goal to Spurs. He put it away, a bit of hesitation there in the Oxford United defence, and it's a goal to Spurs scored by Gary Mafford, in fact he's put the ball in the net; mistake from Andy Melville gave Spurs a corner, the ball wasn't cleared, Gascoigne played a one two, was blocked by United, it came out to Mafford in the end and the goal's in so Spurs take the lead after eight minutes. So Spurs getting the lead they so dearly wanted after all their upsets of recent weeks, but back came United in the eighteenth minute, Les Phillips sent Nogan free over the halfway line and Eric Torsville had to race from his line to hack the ball into the stand. But a minute later, Spurs were two nil up, some sloppy play in mid-field, the ball looped over the United defence to Gary Lineker, he ran on and hammered a tremendous shot into the roof of the net for his fourteenth goal of the season. But still United pushed forward, Simpson a free kick went over the cross bar in the twenty third minute and then, just as I was giving a flash to Radio Oxford listeners, United pulled one back on the half hour. As I speak, a chance now for Martin Foyle; Foyle has scored for Oxford, he's done it, Oxford have pulled one back, tremendous through ball for Martin Foyle, he cheeked his way round the goalkeeper, put it in with the side of his foot so you've come at exactly the right time, thirty one minutes gone, Spurs two, Oxford United one and the goal coming from Martin Foyle. In fact it was Les Phillips who threaded the ball through to Martin Foyle, and he had a marvellous game for United in the heart of their engine room, and just five minutes later, United almost equalised. Martin Foyle sent over the perfect cross, Lee Nogan got above the Spurs defence, he got his ball head to the ball, but it went over the cross bar and the chance had gone. And Spurs piled then forward, towards the end of the first half, trying to get that all important third goal, but United, to their credit, held firm. Well the second half started with United in tremendous form; they pushed more and more men forward, they won two consecutive corners, they really started to get on top, but then, with forty minutes of the second half gone, Spurs scored that all important third goal. Spurs trying to build slowly and purposely with Nayim . Nayim now forward to Paul Stewart, sorry to Paul Allen, Allen lays it wide now to Fenwick, Fenwick to Gascoigne, Gascoigne cuts inside, this is where he's his most dangerous, Gascoigne going forward looking for the one two to Walsh, to Gascoigne, Gascoigne's on his way through, Gascoigne shoots — tremendous tackle — oh what a goal by Paul Gascoigne. A wonderful one two with Paul Gascoigne runs under the ball, he obeys the tackle of Steve Foster, he gets round Ken Basey, what a goal, you can't do .. So Paul Gascoigne making it three one as I say, having a marvellous match, but United once again came back into things. Les Phillips running the show in mid-field, Steve Foster defending stoutly at the back and the front runners always giving Spurs problems especially when the ball was played over the top. United took off Lee Nogan and brought on Mark Stein and just when the game seemed to be slipping from their grasp, they pulled back a vital goal through Martin Foyle. So eleven minutes remaining plus a little bit of injury time, it's still Spurs three, Oxford United one, United go forward, a chip forward there by Simpson. There's a chance now for Martin Foyle; Martin Foyle — and he's scored, oh a great chip forward by Simpson, it's laid back there to Martin Foyle, he takes the ball on his chest and Martin Foyle has done it. Eleven minutes of this tie remaining, it's far from dead, Martin Foyle .. And guess who was the man involved heading the ball from the chip; Les Phillips once again laying the ball back to Martin Foyle. United then began to pile men forward as they had to, Simpson causing problems down the left, Phillips again in mid-field winning a lot of ball, but of course United leaving a few gaps at the back, and just before the finish, four minutes before the finish, that man Gascoigne put the game beyond United's reach, giving Spurs a four two victory. But Gascoigne wins it back, but Stein beats Gascoigne to the ball, lays it forward now to Simpson, Simpson — bad ball by Simpson, it's Spurs in possession down the right side, it's Paul Allen faced by Gary again, in fact it's Paul Stewart, Stewart gets inside, will he get in the shooting chance, he's trying to — chance now for Gascoigne, Gascoignes get in his shot and he's scored. He's put the game beyond Oxford United, the ball played into Paul Gascoigne, he shoots hard and high, above Ken Basey, into the roof of the net. And that was that. A marvellous fourth round Cup Tie, a pulsating game up here at White Hart Lane, watched by a very big crowd, and those five thousand or so Oxford United fans now making their way home down the M twenty five and the M forty, can be justly proud of their side. Final score line up here at White Hart Lane; Tottenham Hotspur four, Oxford United two. Mpb Nick Harris reporting on a pulsating game up at Tottenham this afternoon. You're listening to B B C Radio Oxford and Talking Sport, seventeen minutes past five is the score, and hopefully we'll be going back to White Hart Lane shortly and catching up with some of the players. But now some reports on a couple of the other games this afternoon; in the South Midland League Trophy; Shenley and Lowton five, Oxford City two; so the end of a long unbeaten run for Oxford City; our reporter, John Shepherd. City's unbeaten run went crashing down today when Shenley and Leyton put paid to their chances of further progress in the South Midland League's Challenge Trophy. It looked from the start that they would preserve their record when they scored after five minutes from the kick off. From a free kick on the right, Chris Williams sent over the accurate ball for Steve Hodges to meet unchallenged and score at the far corner with his head. Hudson might have added a second, but taken by surprise to find the ball at his feet, it bounced into the arms of the keeper. City were competing well in mid-field and keeping their opponents at full stretch, but after twenty four minutes, Shenley pulled level as Paul Armitage crossed into goalkeeper Steve Roberts, but he lost possession as he collided with Andy King and allowed Rob Blackmore to get a touch and send it over the line. Chris Williams put Frankie Machavellio clear but he was unable to lose his mark and the chance was gone. Shenley went in front in the thirty fifth minute as City failed to get clear Mark Turrell's corner kick, as the ball crossed the goal line. With four minutes of the first half left, disaster struck for City within the space of two minutes as they suddenly found themselves four one down with two penalties in quick succession. The first came as Steve Brown handled, sorry as Steve Brown tackled in the area, that saw Armitage score off the underside of the cross bar, and from the second, Armitage centre struck Andy King on the hand, and a penalty was put away by Bernie McConnell. Three minutes after the break, City know it was not going to be their day, they themselves were awarded a penalty when Frankie Machavellio was brought down in the area. City's leaders caused Steve Hudsbeth whose tally of goals kept pace with their beaten run, stepped up to take the kick, only to see his effort go outside. On sixty eight minutes, City fell further behind when long cross from the far side reached Bernie McConnell who sent a looping header over Roberts for his second goal of the game. City tried hard to get back into it but their task was always going to be maintenance, although Paul Hackett struck a good goal in a move involving several players, to reduce the area on seventy four minutes. So not a good day for City, but they shouldn't lose heart, as the score line the home side, and on another day might well be reversed as they were not that much difference in the goals. Final score; Shenley and Lowton five, Oxford City two. John Shepherd reporting. Well, so Oxford City lose their unbeaten run, but Abingdon Town keep going, that's in the Vauxhall League division two South, the score this afternoon down at Bracknell; Bracknell one, Abingdon Town two, our reporter Nick Quayle. Abingdon Town struggled to record a two one win against hosts Bracknell Town here today, and will certainly need to improve their finishing if they are to maintain their challenge at the top of the Vauxhall League, division two south. It should have been a relatively easy game as Bracknell were without many first team regulars, but their youngsters were a credit as they hustled Abingdon all the way. Town started very positively against the makeshift Bracknell team, and right from the kick off, Abingdon asserted their authority on the game. Bracknell's youth team keeper, Dean Simmons was soon under pressure and as early as the ninth minute, Abingdon took the lead; having forced a corner, Keith Appleton swung the ball into the area, Steve Aries won it well in the air, and knocked it down to Liam Herbert who crashed his shot past Simmons to make it one nil. Town's top scorer, Paul Bradbury was also not missing out on the action and came close on three or four occasions, but Simmons was playing excellently to deny him. They looked to be all one way traffic as Abingdon's mid-field dominated the game, setting up chances for the front runners, but the final touch was always missing. Simmons seemed saved shots from Herbert and Aries and did well to turn away a goalbound shot from Appleton. Town went two nil up straight after the restart, when Bradbury had a good run on the left wing, centred for Aries who nodded the ball back to a waiting Kevin Connelly and he made no mistake with a low shot. Aries was denied again by keeper Simmons when a goal seemed certain, but it appeared that Abingdon could not turn possession into goals as chance after chance went begging. Minutes before the end, Bracknell got their just rewards for their hard effort from almost their first chance of the game; they forced two quick corners and following a scramble in the Town area, John Smith managed to turn the ball home. So final score here; Bracknell Town one, Abingdon Town two. So another victory for Abingdon Town. Let's move down now to the Hellenic League premier division; Wantage at home to Bicester, that game finished two goals apiece, our reporter Andy Wells. A superbly worked goal by Wantage when John Cully headed home a pin point cross by Stewart Bradbury with five minutes remaining, looked to have won this match for three vitally needed points in the Hellenic League premier division. However, for the third time this season, Wantage could not hold on to a lead given them in the last five minutes, and allowed Andy Martin to shoot home for the equaliser for Bicester. Earlier, Mark Hartline, recently selected for the England Youth Squad, should have given Bicester the lead when he was through twice on the keeper, but put the ball wide. Play was end to end in the first half, but catching Bicester cold after a player had been down injured for some time, Wantage took the lead on thirty five minutes, when Andy Cooper brilliantly volleyed home a touch on from Jamie Alexander for a one nil half time lead. Just before half time, Kevin Leach made a terrific save from another Cooper volley, just tipping over to prevent them going down two nil. In the second half, Alexander made two good chances for himself, but it was Bicester who deservedly equalised after a sustained spell of pressure when Mark Butler stabbed home a loose ball from a corner. Play began to get scrappy, but chances went at both ends until Cully and Martin provided the late excitement; Wantage Town two, Bicester Town two. Andy Wells reporting. And staying in the Hellenic League the premier division; Abingdon United nil, Rayners Lane three; our reporter, Ray Barlow. Abingdon United came back down to earth with a bang this afternoon when they were defeated at home by three goals to nil by lowly Rayners Lane. The game started disastrously for United when after a mistake by Martin Shepherd, Kenny Langston ran on to beat the advancing Richardson with a low shot into the corner of United's goal in the fourth minute. This set back spurred United into action and they penned Rayners Lane into their own half for long periods, forcing eight corners in the first forty minutes of the game. But the nearest they came to scoring was in the forty third minute; Neil Keller in the Rayners Lane goal saving brilliantly from a fifteen yard volley from Martin Shepherd. He again saved his side from the fiftieth minute when he flew across his goal to fingertip a around his near post. This save proved the turning point of the game because United pushed forward and the pace of Kenny Langston proved to be the undoing of United's square defence. In the sixtieth minute he burst between Shepherd and Webb before drawing Shepherd before drawing Richardson from his goal to square the ball across the penalty area for Neil Owen to shoot into the empty net. Then in the seventieth minute he left Martin Smythe for dead wide out on the right before finishing the ball across Richardson into the far corner of United's goal. United to continued to prove to press forward but found their moves breaking down in the visitor's penalty area. The final whistle came with Rayners Lane holding on to win by three goals to nil. That's our reporter Ray Barlow. Now I think we can go back to White Hart Lane; Oxford United losing this afternoon by four goals to two away to Spurs in the F A Cup fourth round, and I believe that Nick Harris is with manager Brian Horton. Thank you and welcome back to White Hart Lane Peter; I've got with me United manager Brian Horton. Beaten Brian, but surely very pleased with the performance of the lads. Yes, I mean I've got to say to that, I thought they kept going; two nothing down you know and I've played in games where your playing top opposition and you can go under a little bit can't you. Credit to them, they came back, got a great goal, Les Phillips had a great game, made the first one I think, no the second one he made didn't he? erm But he played tremendous, Les; he got the passing going and I thought they did very well as a team, we kept our composure. The second goal disappointed me because we talked about Lineker getting behind it. And we seemed to have lost erm Nick Harris and manager Brian Horton, but hopefully we'll be going back to that, so let's move to the Berks and Bucks Intermediate Cup; Fairmile Hospital against Milton, this match finished Fairmile Hospital one, Milton three; waiting to report, David Taylor. Yes, there was to be no Cup upset this afternoon as Hellenic League leaders Milton United overcame their Reading Senior League opponents at Fairmile in the Berks and Bucks Intermediate Cup fourth round. Two goals from Milton's leading scorer Nigel Mott and one from Neil Allen put this game beyond doubt, the opening encounter was fast and furious with bone jarring tackles from both sets of players, and referee, Mr Merchant from Newbury did well to keep it from boiling over. After fourteen minutes, Paul Biddle went close for Milton as his corner went just over the bar. Ian Humphreys and Duncan Mitchell were making space down the right wing for Milton as the visitors started to click into gear, searching and probing for a way past the Fairmile defence. And on twenty five minutes, Nigel Mott got that opening goal as an excellent through ball from Paul Biddle found him in space and he placed the ball wide of the Fairmile goalkeeper Mark Carrigan; Fairmile were not to be perturbed by this as on their half an hour Wayne Glossop went close for the home side. On thirty seven minutes though, Paul Biddle should have made it two nil as he found himself with just the Fairmile goalkeeper to beat, but stupidly played it wide for Brian Marland, but his final pass was poor and Fairmile's Kevin Shepherd was able to clear the ball from the danger area. But three minutes before half time, Milton grabbed the second goal as Neil Allen fired home direct from a free kick some twenty yards out after Paul Biddle had been fouled. The second half was only six minutes old as Fairmile's Kevin Shepherd's close range snapshot sent Milton's goalkeeper Paul Whittington diving to his left save, and one minute later Clive Minor's shot was kicked off the line by Milton's Paul Storey, as Fairmile tried to reduce the deficit. But on fifty nine minutes Milton put the game beyond doubt as Nigel Mott grabbed his second goal of the game despite howls of protest from the Fairmile players for offside, he ran through and stroked the ball home with ease. Paul Biddle squandered another chance for Milton on seventy one minutes as he put the ball wide from close range and then with ten minutes remaining, Fairmile offered themselves a glimmer of hope as Wayne Glossop fired home through a ruck of players. And then Danny McCann could have scored a second for Fairmile in the dying moments, but he shot over from a good position. Despite the heavy tackles, only one player was booked; Ricky Cox of Fairmile for a tackle on Ian Humphreys. The final score here; Fairmile hospital one, Milton United three. Back to the Hellenic League and the Premier Division; Banbury nil, Almondsbury nil, our reporter Barry Worsley. Well a very close fought encounter at the stadium; we had to wait for quarter of an hour for the first actual goal chance when Dave Bristow hit the ball from twenty five yards, which just cleared the bar. Almondsbury were always a problem to Banbury, both teams playing very good football and the mid-field were very dominant on both sides, therefore the amount of chances weren't that great. Sixteenth minute, Kerry probably the best move of the game, played the ball to Dave Brooker who slotted the ball through to Wayne McDowell. His ball to brother Gary McDowell was touched on to Neil Sibble who's first tie shot was cannoned off the bar, that was the nearest that Banbury really got to scoring. The goalkeeper was well beaten, but as the ball cannoned over for a goal kick and the chance went. Again it see-sawed to and fro throughout the half erm last couple of minutes Banbury went twice when Peter Smith fired in a shot from twenty yards which Ricky Harding in the Almondsbury goal held very comfortably, and erm Dave Bristow again went close. erm The second half started as the first half finished, with a again a very erm entertaining game erm in the fiftieth minute, on a break, Almondsbury's Alex Stocker was nearest to scoring for them when he floated a long ball forward which Mark Sibble was very glad to tip over the bar. A few minutes later Wayne McDowell, he played the ball out to brother Gary again, whose hard low cross was scrambled clear by the Almondsbury defence to back to Wayne McDowell whose lob shot ended up resting in the top of the netting. Again erm the game was to and fro, see-sawing one way and then the other, erm quite an exciting game to the uncommitted considering there were no goals scored erm in about the seventieth minute, Neil Sibble, he took the ball from the half way line on an individual run, but after beating two defenders his shot was well saved by Harding. Almondsbury came more into it as the last twenty minutes came and erm forced a few corners; Banbury had probably the more chances of getting the elusive winner erm but the game could have gone either way and I think after all is considered erm the final result was a fair result. In a fortnight's time the fixture is reversed with Banbury making the trip to Almondsbury, but the result of this game was Banbury United nil, Almondsbury Pixons nil. Barry Worsley reporting. Let's move now up to the Beezer Homes League Southern Division; Witney one, Canterbury two, our reporter, Adrian Burcher. A bad mistake by the linesman cost Witney the three points in today's battle against fellow strugglers Canterbury City at Marriots Close. Things seemed to be going fairly well for Town; Dave Warner made a tremendous one handed save from Sammy Spence on thirteen minutes, whilst up the other end, Steve Jenkins, Kenny Clarke and Jimmy Austin all saw efforts cleared in a goalmouth melee. But on twenty eight minutes disaster struck; Canterbury striker Sammy Spence was making his way back up field and was clearly ten yards offside. David Gear hit the ball over the defence and Spence immediately changed direction and chased; for some unknown reason, no flag appeared, allowing Spence to slot home past the helpless Warner to the annoyance of the home players. From this point, Witney took the bit between their teeth and fought back in search of an equaliser. On sixty one minutes, Steve Jenkins ran through on to Gary Murphy's through ball only to be died by the cross bar. More bad luck was to follow a minute later; Steve Jenkins hit a cross shot which Spencer Creedon parried across the six yard box, Kenny Clark followed up and desperately slid in but was denied by the post, and in doing so, dislocated his finger, but was luckily allowed back into the action within minutes following treatment. On sixty six minutes, Clark again saw another effort run just wide, but three minutes later, Witney got their reward; Brian Flannery headed David Scott's clearance down to Julio Berazi. Berazi carried the ball down to the edge of the box, then slipped a delightful ball through to Clark who made no mistake crashing home his eighteenth goal of the season. At this point, Witney looked like they might snatch all three points, but Canterbury's Neil Scott had other ideas. Billy Ploose's up and under fell behind Town defence bouncing kindly for Scott who kept his head and finished coolly. The score once again for Marriotts Close; Witney Town one, Canterbury City two. So Witney's little run comes to an end. Right let's catch up with Headley Feast and the details of all the national football today. Yes, the first goal in the fourth round of the F A Cup was scored at Millwall when Stevenson put the home side in front after just one minute of their tie with Sheffield Wednesday; Ron Atkinson's side hit back to equalise after twelve minutes. On the half hour, Francis put Wednesday two one up but five minutes from the break, Ray netted to equalise for Millwall. Sheffield Wednesday regained the lead through Pearson in the fifty ninth minute, but Millwall came back and Sherringham made it three three after sixty three minutes. Palmer put Sheffield Wednesday back into the lead with four minutes left and on the stroke of time, Sherringham made it four four. Crewe Alexander were also quick off the mark, Hignett giving them a tenth minute lead at home to Rotherham, and the only goal of the game puts Crewe into round five. Manchester City's Quinn netted in the eleventh minute in their match away to Port Vale, but the home side drew level with ace marksman Beckford after thirty six minutes. Manchester City were back in front after seventy one minutes through Allen, and that's how the game finished; Port Vale one, Manchester City two. Shrewsbury at home to first division Wimbledon took the lead through Shaw after thirty nine minutes, and Shrewsbury, now managed by John Bond, go through to the fifth round. Cambridge United and Middlesbrough were unable to break the deadlock in the first half of their match, but Taylor gave Cambridge the lead after sixty seven minutes and it was Taylor who made it two nil fifteen minutes from time to give Cambridge a memorable victory. Norwich City and Swindon's tie at Carrow Road was also without goals in the first half, but Swindon's Lorenzo was given his marching orders. Five minutes after the break, White put Swindon in front but Norwich City pulled level after sixty five minutes through Gordon. Mid way through the second half, Gittins was the second Swindon player to be sent off and against nine man Swindon, Norwich's Mortenson gave them lead. One minute from time, Flex scored Norwich's third to make it a miserable afternoon for Swindon. Portsmouth took the lead in their match at Fratton Park against Bournemouth through Clark, right on the stroke of half time. Wittingham made it two nil on the hour and then followed two further goals from Wittingham with Faraday replying for Bournemouth, but Wittingham struck again his fourth to make the final score; Portsmouth five, Bournemouth one. Coventry City were in front one minute before half time in their home tie with Southampton: Kilkline the scorer. Shearer equalised for Southampton with a penalty in the fifty second minute, and the replay at Southampton midweek. Notts County at home to Oldham went into a forty second minute lead through Turner, and this all second division clash saw Notts County go further ahead through Short after sixty five minutes; two nil the final score. West Ham doing so well in the second division went to first division Luton, and by half time they were in front, a Pariss goal after forty three minutes, but Luton hit back in the seventieth minute through Black, and these two sides must replay. Liverpool and Brighton had a goal-less first half, but Ian Rush put Liverpool in front three minutes into the second half, and two minutes later the same goal scorer netted number two. However, Brighton were not overawed and they came back with a penalty through Small after seventy three minutes. Burne netted number two for Brighton and these two sides go to the south coast in the week. Manchester United at home to Bolton were held to a goal-less first half first forty five minutes, and they had to wait until the seventy seventh minute before taking the lead through Hughes, and United go through with a one nil win. Headley Feast with today's round up of the national football. Now I think we can go back to White Hart Lane and Nick Harris talking to Oxford United manager, Brian Horton. Well, welcome back to White Hart Lane Peter, I've got with me United manager Brian Horton. Beaten Brian, but surely very pleased with the performance of the lads? Yes, I mean I've got to say that, I thought they kept going at two nothing down you know sides , and I've played in games where you're playing top opposition and you can go under a little bit can't you? Credit to them, they came back, got a great goal, Les Phillips had a great game; made the first one I think, no the second one he made didn't he? erm But he played tremendous, Les, got the passing going, and I thought we did very well as a team, we kept our composure. The second goal disappointed me because we'd talked about Lineker getting behind us, let Gary Lineker have the ball in front and then he's not so dangerous obviously; that's his strength, over the top, bump it in the net. That disappointed me, because we'd talked about it and done that yesterday in training. And when things happen like that, it disappoints me. You can't stop Gascoigne's goal, I mean that's tremendous play, great play. All the talk after the game is about Gascoigne, but he really had had a marvellous match hadn't he? I had to make the decision, do I put Mickey Lewis on him, leave Martin Foyle out and stick Mickey Lewis on Gascoigne? I think I've made the right decision because Foyly scored two goals, and I don't think you stop a player of his quality, I mean they tried it with George Best, they've tried it with, you know Manfred Mann and they always do something special don't they? He did things he did special things against Chelsea tonight and they lost three nothing. You can't stop that, I mean that's what I've said to the Press, you don't want him to go abroad because I think everybody's going to miss that, because there are aren't too many that can do things like he does. Little Les Phillips just said in the dressing room, you can't get near him, he's so explosive over five, ten yards, you know he played the one two bumpers into the ah, it's a fantastic goal. But you know, let's not talk him all the time because I think some of our players gave good performances today. Absolutely, you didn't come here and kick and rush, you didn't come here and defend, you played some delightful football, football I know you always like to play, that must have pleased you the way the game was played. It does please me but the thing sometimes is, you don't get results, I mean I just said to him at half time ‘come on we've got to be a bit stronger,’ you know I thought we were playing quite well, but I thought we were letting them dominate us a little bit. You know you've got to get your foot in and you know if you've got erm people in tackles, come on, they aren't any different to anybody else and maybe I thought we could have done that a little bit better. But the passing, the finishing was good, Lee Nogan hit a good shot, first couple of men in so you know that goes in, it's a different game. We just couldn't get quite at them could we, like you know, two one, they go three one, three two, they go four two, you know, like you think ‘oh if you just could have’, you know. Maybe we just had a little bit of pressure, but that's good players, they punish you don't they, top players? Martin Foyle what, out of the side for so long — bit of a gamble to bring him back in; he did you proud. Yes he Foyly, he's got a heart as big as a lion and he'll always do that, Foyly, whether he's been injured or not, for you, and I'm pleased he got the goals. erm People who get the goals get the headlines don't they erm so I'm pleased for him erm John Durning now is missing for two games erm he misses erm Oldham and Swindon, so that's pleasing to have Foyly back. erm We'll just have to see what goes now this week, but erm I'm pleased with Foyly. I'm pleased we've gone away probably, you know, we've made a few friends because everbody's just said to me how well we've played and you know, it was a great game and all that kind of stuff, so that pleases me, I just don't like losing. Finally, we've got to bring the players back to earth a bit, but two absolute cracking games to look forward to in the next couple of weeks; Oldham next week, probably the best footballing side in the second division, and away to Swindon the week after, so still a lot to look forward to although disappointment at going out of the Cup. There's always things to look forward to football isn't there? You know, it is a pressure job and Terry must have been under pressure today because if we'd have beaten them, then you know their season would have crumbled. But erm there's always things to look forward to in football and yes Oldham's going to be a good game for us, but we need to win; then Swindon, our old rivals that we can't beat for years. It might be our turn mightn't it? If we play like that we're going to beat sides aren't we. It's if we go back in and think we're good players again like we did at West Brom and don't compete. I think we competed today but erm maybe one or two areas where I thought we might have got stuck in a little bit more you know, and we're going to have to do that against Oldham I tell you because they'll pass and have players that can do tricks erm good side aren't they? So, you know we've got a week now to maybe watch the T V tonight, watch the goals again tomorrow, enjoy what we've just done, but erm some hard work ahead of it in the next few weeks. Brian, thank you very much. Thank you. Nick Harris talking to Oxford United manager, Brian Horton. Well, while United have been playing at White Hart Lane, it's rather overshadowed Bicester Rugby Cup at Hucklecote Old Boys in the Provincial Insurance Cup. Well, they won by twelve points to seven, they move through to the semi-finals, just one match away from a performance at Twickenham; reporting on the game this afternoon, Graham Cook. Bicester Rugby Club were in the semi-finals of the Provincial Insurance Cup following an excellent hard four weeks, to go to Gloucester opponents, Hucklecote Old Boys at this afternoon. Bicester had to withstand incessant Old Boys pressure in the final quarter of an hour, finally were outright winners by twelve points to seven. Hucklecote made most of the early running and took the lead on six minutes, Steve Barslow converting a penalty, and they increased that lead after a quarter of an hour when Mark Halkins went over for a try following good work from Steve Hamslow. This was the first real chance of a score a couple of minutes earlier, Neil Smith attempting a drop goal. The visitors reduced the arrears with a try on twenty minutes scored by Colin Vynal and converted by Neil Smith, and right on the interval took the lead with another try, this time from skipper, Simon Grater erm again converted by Neil Smith following a mistake in the Old Boys' defence. After the interval, chances were few and far between and most of the early play took place in mid-field, but towards the end Hucklecote applied severe pressure, but the visitor's defence superbly mastered by outside half, Neil Smith held out for a fine hard-earned victory. The final score; Hucklecote Old Boys seven, Bicester twelve. So congratulations to Bicester, after the game I managed to catch up with Colin Vynal who scored one of the goals, rather poor quality I'm afraid, he was on a mobile phone erm a bit of celebration going on, but here's Colin Vynal of the Bicester Rugby Club. Oh yes, most of the lads here are really erm over the moon about it, it was a tough game, we erm outplayed them for the first probably three quarters of an hour really . They put erm tremendous pressure on our line but we seemed to repel every attack and erm held firm. No score in the second half to you or to Hucklecote; was it hard work? It was very hard work yes, we created one chance when went begging with a forward pass, but it's just one of them things. And then as I say, it was defend, defend, defend for the last quarter of an hour. So what now Colin? The semi-finals. Isn't it, yes. That's right, yes, the draw's on T V tomorrow, we're looking forward to that. I don't know who's got through from the other games, but we'll take anyone on really I think. You're getting closer and closer to that magic place Twickenham. That's true yes, I've never even been there at all, let alone played there. Was it a game today that went how you thought it might do? Well, oh gosh, the team seemed to play in one way like, nine man rugby scrum, scrum and scrum half and that's about it isn't it, probably was how we planned it. But as I say, it was hard work , it wasn't an easy game. Right, I believe you've got some of the other players next door to if you'd like to put somebody on. Simon Greater the other try scorer, I'll hand you over to him now. I've got to stick my finger in my ear as well? I don't know. Hello? Hello Simon, well you can stick your finger anywhere you like, you can stick it up in the air, because you're victorious today. That's right that's right. And a try Marvellous victory. And a try for you today, that must have sealed it for you Yes, thirty four and a try as well. Now, you've been having problems with a shoulder injury in recent weeks, did you have any problem today? No, not at all, no I if there'd been any doubt then I wouldn't have played, but erm no doubt at all . It was erm a marvellous victory, erm still erm still soaking in really. You seem to specialise in these narrow victories; you went away in the last round, up to Greenwich and also had a narrow one there. That's right yes, well as I've always said erm from the last erm eight, last sixteen, erm it's always going to be tight matches, cut rugby one score in it really erm it's cut rugby really. There's going to be no walkovers now , I mean we're eighty minutes away from Twickenham. Well you want one walkover don't you, then you'll be walking round at Twickenham. Well that would be nice, that would be nice, yes. Great support for you today from the local Bicester people? tremendous support, yes, it was great. I think we outnumbered their support here, it was it gave the players a great lift, it was tremendous erm all credit to them erm we will drag even more along to the next game. Well, congratulations to you; enjoy tonight, I think you will do. I think I will and I think the rest of the team might have a few erm sherbets tonight, I don't know. And that's Simon Greater and before him, Colin Vynal from the Bicester Rugby Club who were triumphant at Hucklecote Old Boys today, and the draw for the next round of course, the semi-finals, on television tomorrow. Some other rugby results today; in the Unicyst merit table; Oxford twelve, Askians twenty one; and in club matches; Kings Burians thirty, Oxford Old Boys seven; Chinnor three, Windsor forty three; Littlemore sixteen, Chilton twenty two; Oxford Marathons twenty four, Old Abbotsonians nil; Abingdon forty seven, Chesham seven; Didcot sixteen, High Wycombe three; and Witney nil, Saintbridge nineteen. A reminder you're listening to B B C Radio Oxford and Talking Sport, just coming up to thirteen minutes to six. I think we can go back just for a final to White Hart Lane, and join up with Nick Harris — got his breath back now Nick, I think a tremendous afternoon though for you. Ah, fabulous Peter, tremendous Cup Tie, great display by Oxford United and the showing of a world class footballer for everybody to see. Really you couldn't ask for much more, of course we wanted United to win, but as people will see on the television tonight, they contributed so much to this game, they played so much good football and to watch Paul Gascoigne in this sort of form is worth anybody's admission money. Yes, a marvellous afternoon. You seemed to pick out two players or perhaps three; Les Phillips got a lot of mention, Steve Foster and Martin Foyle for his goals. Absolutely, I would think they're the three heroes erm Les Phillips in midfield was back to the Les Phillips we knew when he first came to Oxford from Birmingham when we were in the first division. He had a marvellous game, didn't waste a pass, won all his tackles, laid on both Martin Foyle's goals, obviously Martin Foyle back in the side, took his goals so well; really put himself about and Steve Foster at the back really held things together when erm things could have gone really calamitously. You just feel United what, were two nil down after fourteen minutes erm things really could have gone so badly for them, but they held firm, they got back into the game and full credit to all of them. So back to the nitty gritty next Saturday; Oldham at the Manor, and we need a win there? That's the trouble isn't it Peter, that's so often the trouble with United as well, they've done so well this afternoon, but such an important game against Oldham, again I'm a great Oldham fan, I think Oldham play some delightful football. erm If United can play as well as they did this afternoon and Oldham perform as well as we know they can, we're in for a really tremendous game of football. Let's hope so, Nick Harris thank you very much; that's Nick Harris up at White Hart Lane helped this afternoon by United mid-fielder, Steve McClaren. Well, looking ahead to this evening, the Woofers the greyhounds at the Oxford Stadium, with his tips for us in Radio Oxford yankee, here's Mick Weeble. Alright here we go then; the first race tonight is seven thirty erm it's a twelve ways programme, but the first erm selection's in the second race which is the seven forty five, and this is a name two grade, four fifty metres erm which is five hundred yards. Anyway we're going to go for trap two, Smoky Amber here, now she's a bitch that is really, I think's going to be something special over a longer trip, erm you know a longer distance, but she is only a March eighty nine so she's not two yet. But erm she's coming along the right way so it's trap two, Smoky Amber for me there; dangers I think will be Barefoot Champion six and Marla Gain in five. The second leg of our yankee is the eight forty five, well this is a sprint race; two fifty metres, only erm only go round two bends, and therefore you have to have some erm early pace sort of erm greyhounds, and I'm going to go for a trap one here, Chair Boy's Blue, he's already won plenty over this erm shorter trip. erm Has a nice looking draw tonight, trap one, Chair Boy's Blue then, dangers I think will be Glenkaveckia in trap three and Silky Blue in trap two. And then for the third leg of our erm Radio Oxford yankee, we go over in the tenth race, the nine forty eight. Well this is a four fifty metre, an A three grade and I'm going to go for trap five, Hippy. erm She's having her first race tonight erm under her latest a newish trainer, Bernie Doyle, he's doing ever so well, his kennel's really in form erm so I'm going to go for trap five, Hippy to win erm first time erm at the track tonight, that's the third leg. erm And then the twelfth race, the ten twenty, there was just the top erm standard distance event, an A one grade, four fifty metres and I'm going to go for trap one again, Ambridge Power, trained by Paul Garland, another nice erm nice dog, he's running really well. He's going to have to improve a little bit on his last win, but I think he can do that, so that's the fourth leg of a yankee, trap one, Ambridge Power. So four winners you've given us, any news about the track, to tell everybody for the next week? Yes erm now on erm Tuesday as I say we've got five open races actually Peter, five open races on Tuesday, but erm one of the best erm things that happened to us is that the Pall Mall which is the biggest event erm in erm March, erm that's being sponsored now by one of the track bookmakers called Max Thomas and the best thing about it is that erm he is erm putting in so much prize money with the major the supporting opens on our gala night, that erm there's not a race worth in the open race, there's not worth less than two hundred and erm there's three races worth five hundred pounds each to the winner and the big race is worth five thousand so that's an early erm plug for to keep in your diary, like the Pall Mall which is March the twenty third. And just finally, on Friday we are in to the we've been invited into a bags competition, you know, that's after the bags actually means bookmakers afternoon greyhound services, and we race that every Friday as you know erm anyway we've been invited to erm a national championship involving the other bags tracks that erm involved in this erm and so we stage our two heats on Friday. So, you know, we're looking forward to getting a little way in that competition. And that's Mick Weeble the racing manager at the Oxford Stadium. Now back to football and today's local results: F A Cup fourth round; Spurs four, Oxford United two, the Beezer Homes League southern division; Witney one, Canterbury two; Vauxhall League division two south; Bracknell one, Abingdon Town two; the South Midland League premier division; Pyrton one, Thame four; the South Midland League Trophy; Shenley and Lulton five, Oxford City two; the premier division of the Hellenic League; Abingdon United nil, Rayners Lane three; Banbury nil, Almondsbury Pixons nil; Bishops Cleve nil, Kingbury Rangers two; Carterton two, Swindon Athletic two; Fairford two, Headington Amateurs nil; Moreton one, Hounslow nil; Shortwood one, Didcot nil; Wantage two, Bicester two; division one Cup, first round replay; Wallingford Town two, Pyrton nil; division one; Cheltenham Saracens nil, Wootton Bassett one; Sinderford five, Chipping Norton nil; Cirencester one, Supmarine nil; Clanfield one, Cirencester United one; Easington Sports six, Lambourn Sports nil; Highworth Town two, Kidlington nil; Northleigh nil, Viking Sports two; the reserve League Cup; Kingsbury Rangers two, Swindon Athletic one; the reserve division east; Bicester Town one, Wallingford Town two; Didcot two, Abingdon United one; Headington one, Wantage one; Rayners Lane three, Easington Sports one; Viking Sports two, Northleigh nil; the reserve division west; Almondsbury Pixons one, Carterton one; Chipping Norton two, Cirencester Town two; Cirencester United three, Highworth nil; Supmarine nil, Fairford three; the Berks and Bucks Intermediate Cup fourth round; Fairmile Hospital one, Milton three; the Berks and Bucks Junior Cup fourth round; Embrooks Sports one, Milton United reserves three; and the Herefordshire Senior Cup third round; Ledbury two, Pegasus Juniors one after extra time. The Oxfordshire Senior League premier division; Blackbird Leys three, Worcester College Old Boys three; Bletchingdon three, Woodstock Town one; Garsington four, Eynsham one; Old Woodstock nil, A P Sports nil; Oxford University Press four, Marlborough nil; division one; Kennington United Reserves nil, Old Woodstock Reserves one; Launton Sports nil, Pressed Steel Fisher nil; Long Crendon nine, John Radcliffe nil; Oxford Stadium nine, Marston Saints nil; Quarry Nomad Reserves six, Charlbury Town one; Woodstock Town Reserves one, Bicester Civil Service four; division two; A P Sports Reserves one, Long Crendon Reserves three; Ardley United Reserves seven, Charlton United Reserves one; Charlbury Town Reserves nil, Bletchingdon Reserves two; Eynsham Reserves three, Launton Sports Reserves two; Marlborough Reserves four, Oakley United Reserves one; Selesians Reserves nil, Watlington Reserves two. The Oxford City Football Association, C J L Cup; North Oxfordshire Reserves three, Beckley Sports four; Marston three, North Oxford five; Tetsworth nil, County Dairies two; Great Milton three, Wheatley five; In the League; Northway four, Portmahan two; The Oxfordshire Charity Cup; Watlington one, Ardley two; Brize Norton nil, Quarry Nomads four; Eynstone Sports five, Selesians nil; and Spartan Rangers one, Yarnton nil. The Lord Jersey Football Association, Mid-Oxon Cup; Heyford United six, Red Line Marauders one; K E A United eight, Stanton St John one; Heath one, Arncott nil; division one; Bardwell two, Marsh Gibbon two; The Arthur Crawford Cup; Marauders Reserves three, Bardwell Reserves four; Middle Barton three, Piddington one; Fritwell four, K E A United Reserves one; division two; Marsh Gibbon Reserves one, Kirtlington nil; the Supplementary Cup; Merton one, Heyford United Reserves three; Arncott Reserves four, Heyford Athletic Reserves three; Crusaders nil, Weston nine; Wise Alderman twelve, Wootton Reserves nil; Steeple Aston four, Fritwell Reserves one. The Witney and District F A, premier division; Ducklington four, Hanborough three; Chadlington one, West Witney five; Hayley one, Stonesfield five; division one; Bampton Town nil, Alsvcott nil; F C Mills three, Chadlington Reserves nil; Hanborough Reserves one, Carterton Eagles two; Tackley one, Spartan Reserves one; West Witney Reserves nil, Minster Lovell one; division two; Addlestrop one, F C Mills Reserves two; Bladon one, Cassington one; Burford two, North Kidlington nil; Stonesfield Reserves three, Kingham five; division three; Alsvcott Reserves one, Crusaders three; Aston four, Hayley Reserves two; Carterton B ten, Hanborough A two; Newland one, Filkins two; division four; Allendale three, Chipping Norton two; Kingham Reserves two, F C Mills A one; Minster Lovell Reserves one, West Witney A four; Witney Royals three, Burford Reserves one; and division five; Askett United two, Charlbury A nil; Cassington Reserves three, Witney Royals Reserves two; Field Town Reserves three, Bampton Reserves one; Freeland Reserves six, Alsvcott A nil; Swinbrook Reserves seven, Chipping Norton Reserves two. The Banbury and District Football League Benevolent Cup first round proper; Hook Norton two, Bishops Hitchington nil; the Benevolent Cup first round proper replay; Milcombe one, Ruscombe Sports two; Benevolent Cup second round proper; Barford United against Kings Sutton, result not yet in; Hornton one, Bodicote Sports five; the Angel Shield second round; Bloxham Athletic Reserves nil, Hook Norton Reserves two; Ruscote Sports Reserves nil, Middleton Cheney Reserves one; Sinclair United Reserves three, Shipston Excelsior Reserves nil; Wroxham Sports Reserves against Bodicote Reserves postponed; the League premier division; Adderbury one, Sinclair United six; Shipston Excelsior two, Middleton Cheney two; division one; Broughton and North Newington three, Banbury Town two; Fenney Compton two, Bloxham Athletic one; division two; Alcan against Oasthouse postponed; Charlton two, Wardington two; Cropredy two, Oasthouse four; division three; Bishops Hitchington Reserves eight, Brayles United Reserves one; Bloxham Athletic A one, Fenney Compton Reserves one; Deddington Town Reserves one, Milcombe Reserves eight; Kings Sutton Reserves six, Cropredy Reserves nil; Middleton Cheney A two, Hornton Reserves six; the Banbury Guardian Cup; Bodicote Sports Reserves five, Chipping Warden one; and the Supplementary Cup; Wroxham Reserves seven, Alcan nil. And that's the full round up of all the local football this afternoon. You're listening to B B C Radio Oxford and Talking Sport, just a minute away from six, hope you've enjoyed the programme this afternoon. Congratulations to Bicester Rugby Club, and make sure you're listening to the television tomorrow afternoon when they make the draw for the semi-finals of the Provincial Insurance Cup. Next Saturday of course, Oxford United are at home to Oldham. Well, coming up is the six o'clock news, we'll leave you with two of the highlights this afternoon from United's F A Cup game, away at Spurs. As I speak a chance now for Martin Foyle — Foyle has scored for Oxford — he's done it, Oxford have pulled one back, tremendous through ball for Martin Foyle. He cheeked his way round the goalkeeper, put it in with the side of his foot, so you've come at exactly the right time, thirty one minutes gone, Spurs two, Oxford United one. So eleven minutes remaining plus a little bit of injury time, it's still Spurs three, Oxford United one; United go forward, a chip forward there by Simpson, there's a chance for Martin Foyle, Martin Foyle — and he's scored. Oh a great chip forward by Simpson, it's laid back there to Martin Foyle and he takes the ball on his chest and Martin Foyle has done it. Eleven minutes of this tie remaining, it's far from dead, Martin Foyle's second goal of the game, Steve McLaren .. Yes welcome to Talking Sport, good evening, tonight's headlines; a disappointing result at the Manor as Oxford United outplay Charlton, especially in the first half, but concede a goal late on to finish as a one all draw, and they drop to eighteenth in the table. Elsewhere, several games are called off, but in those that were played there are wins for Abingdon Town, Bicester, Milton, Headington United beat Thame and Peppard beat Malborough; there's a draw for Witney and defeat for Abingdon United. All major rugby matches locally were called off today. More on all those football games in a moment, first the classified results, starting on the local scene. League division two; Oxford United one, Charlton one; the Beezer Homes League southern division; Witney two, Yate Town two; the Vauxhall League division two south; Abingdon Town three, Horsham nil; the Hellenic League premier division; Bishops Cleve nil, Milton one; Bicester six, Swindon Athletic one; Didcot against Almondsbury, match postponed; Wantage against Shortwood, match postponed; in the Oxfordshire senior cup third round; Easington Sports against Watlington, match postponed; Headington two, Thame nil; Northleigh against Ardley and Oxford City against Carterton, matches postponed; Peppard five, Malborough one; and in the Berks and Bucks Senior Cup second round; Abingdon United nil, Chesham three. Now for the national classified results, here's Headley Feast. The F A Cup fourth round, third replay; Leeds United one, Arsenal two; the F A Cup fifth round; Cambridge United four, Sheffield Wednesday nil; Notts County one, Manchester City nil; Portsmouth one, Tottenham Hotspur two; West Ham United one, Crewe Alexandra nil; Barclays League division one; Chelsea nil, Wimbledon nil; Crystal Palace nil, Queens Park Rangers nil; Sunderland one, Nottingham Forest nil; division two; Barnsley against Newcastle United, match postponed; Blackburn Rovers nil, West Bromwich Albion three; Bristol Rovers three, Watford one; Hull City one, Bristol City two; Milwall four, Plymouth Argyll one; Oldham Athletic two, Port Vale nil; Oxford United one, Charlton Athletic one; Wolverhampton Wanderers against Leicester City, score draw; division three; Bolton Wanderers nil, Grimsby Town nil; Bournemouth one, Birmingham City two; Brentford one, Exeter City nil; Chester City against Swansea City, home win; Huddersfield Town one, Preston Northend nil; Leyton Orient against Wigan Athletic, home win; and Mansfield Town versus Rotherham United, no score draw; Stoke City two, Bury two; Tranmere Rovers one, Fulham one; division four; Blackpool two, Doncaster Rovers nil; Carlisle United one, Rochdale one; Darlington against Lincoln City, score draw; Halifax Town against Burnley, late result; Maidstone United against Aldershot, away win; Peterborough United versus Hereford United, home win; Scarborough two, Hartlepool United nil; Scunthorpe United against Wrexham, home win; Walsall three, Chesterfield nil; the Scottish B and Q League premier division; Dunfermline Athletic against Hibernian, no score draw; Heart of Midlothian two, Dundee United one; Rangers two, Motherwell nil; St Mirren against Celtic, match postponed; division one; Breckon City one, Airdrionians one; Clyde against Clydebank, no score draw; Dundee versus Ayr United, score draw; Falkirk nil, Wraith Rovers two; Hamilton Academical against Forfar Athletic, home win; Kilmarnock one, Partick Thistle nil; Morton one, Meadowbank Thistle one; division two; Alloa versus Stenhouse Muir, away win; Berwick Rangers versus Queen of the South, home win; Dumbarton nil, Albion Rovers two; East Fife two, Stirling Albion two; Montrose one, Cowden Beath nil; Queens Park nil, Arbroath nil; Stranraer two, East Stirlingshire nil; the G M Vauxhall Conference; Altringham nine, Merthyr Tydfil two; Barrow four, Barnet two; Cheltenham two, Kettering Town two; Colchester against Runcorn, home win; Fisher versus Kidderminster, no score draw; Slough versus Gateshead, away win; Stafford versus Welling, home win; and Sutton United versus Bath, home win; Telford one, Boston nil, Wycombe Wanderers nil, Macclesfield nil; Yeovil one, Northwich one; the Vauxhall League premier division; St Albans against Carshalton, away win; Wivenhoe versus Harrow, home win; Woking one, Dagenham nil; and Wokingham nil, Enfield two. Headley Feast with today's classified football results. Well, disappointment for Oxford United; Charlton were there for the taking, United let them off the hook. It had looked too easy at first, but the goals wouldn't come, and in the end the match finished one goal apiece; our reporter at the game, Nick Harris. A disappointing result for United who totally dominated the first half and really after seeing that first forty five minutes, it was so difficult to see how they could not win three points, and this encounter against the Charlton side drew on the same number of points as them in the second division table. In that first half, they totally dominated the proceedings with the mid-field trio of Jim Magilton, Les Phillips and Mickey Lewis running the show. But they only had one goal to show for all that effort, that came on the half an hour from top goal scorer Martin Foyle. Really it was goalkeeper Bob Bolder and central defender Alan Kernigan against United. The second half turned into a very different story as Charlton packed the mid-field, although United had their chances to put the game well beyond their reach until the eighty first minute when the impressive Robert Lee slipped the ball past Ken Vasey to give Charlton a point they really didn't deserve. United started off like express trains despite that too weak lay off, in the second minute, Martin Foyle broke clear into the box on the left side, and from a tight angle goalkeeper Bob Bolder blocked the ball with his feet; a minute later, Les Phillips' shot was diverted over the crossbar by the foot of Alan Kernigan. Kernigan on loan from Middlesbrugh to Charlton at the moment after his display especially under the siege in the first half, surely they'll want to sign him. From the resulting corner, Paul Simpson's corner, Andy Melville flicked the ball on at the near post, Martin Foyle's header hit the under side of the bar and bounced away. Two minutes later, Kernigan again, when he kicked Simpson's cross over his own crossbar. United still piling men forward winning everything in mid-field, and in the sixteenth minute Les Phillips clearing the box, he tried to square the ball back, but a great scramble ensued in the Charlton goalmouth, goalkeeper Bolder was injured, he recovered and the ball was eventually hacked away. Four minutes later United's best move of the half involving four players; eventually the ball laid out to Simpson down the left, the cross came in, it fell to Lee Nogan off Jim Magilton, but from some five yards out, somehow Bolder got his hands to Nogan's shot and the chance had gone. Seven minutes later Simpson's free kick hit the post, it went over the Charlton wall, hit the post with Bolder beaten, and again the chance had gone, but at last on the half an hour United took the lead; yet another corner, again from the right side. Goalkeeper Bolder off his line, punched away only to Andy Melville on the edge of the penalty area; Melville ran forward after picking up the loose ball, hammered it forward, Martin Foyle getting the last touch of the ball into the corner of the net, and United now seemingly pushing forward towards three points. It was Bolder again before half time, making a tremendous save to deny a Simpson shot and then three minutes before half time, his best save of the game; somehow he kicked kneed Nogan's shot away from five yards after more good work by United down the left side. Well Charlton had to improve in the second half, and they did; they got more men into mid-field, and United began to run out of a little bit of steam. Five minutes into the half, Charlton's corner of the game and Robert Lee volleyed the ball high over the crossbar. Four minutes later Carl Leven's header went over the bar with a cross coming in from the left, Charlton going in confidence, although United had the chances to put the game well beyond their reach. In the fifty ninth minute Martin Foyle was clear on the edge of the penalty area after Kernigan slipped, but his lob was comfortably held by Bolder. Seven minutes later, Foyle clear again, this time down the right, he squared the ball back but no United players could get to the ball and Charlton cleared. In the seventy seventh minute another great save by Bolder; Magilton took a free kick from the left, Steve Foster got his head to the ball, it appeared to be heading to the far corner of the net, but Bolder somehow dived away to his left and forced the ball away. And as so often happens in these situations, with United on top for so, so long, it was Charlton on the breakaway who scored that vital equaliser with just nine minutes remaining. The ball was slipped through to Robert Lee, he held off the challenge of goalkeeper Ken Vasey, and from seven yards, hammered the ball into the net. United had one more chance six minutes before the end when Martin Foyle did well to turn on the ball; in the edge of the penalty area he hit a shot low and hard towards the corner of the net but it just drifted wide of the far post and United's chance had gone. As I said, at half time, you couldn't believe Oxford United weren't going to get three points out of this game, but they didn't, and now they have to fight on. A disappointing result then up at the Manor; Oxford United one, Charlton Athletic one. Nick Harris reporting, and of course we'll be going back to the Manor ground shortly and catching up hopefully with Nick Harris and some of Oxford United players. Well that's moved United one place down the table, they do get an extra point of course for today, they move on to thirty two points. But West Brom had a very good win this afternoon, they went to Blackburn and won three nil, so West Brom have leap frogged over both Oxford and Charlton; they're now in sixteenth place and Charlton drop to seventeenth, Oxford United to eighteenth with thirty two points. In fact bottom clubs didn't do too well at all this afternoon, let's look at them; Hull were at the bottom, they lost, Watford also lost, Portsmouth didn't play, Plymouth lost, Leicester didn't play and Blackburn lost, so of the bottom six teams, not a single side won. So, it's thirty three points, Port Vale and West Brom, thirty two points, Charlton and Oxford, thirty points, Blackburn and Leicester, twenty nine, Plymouth and Portsmouth, twenty five Watford and twenty five Hull. Well we're still waiting to go back to the Manor Ground and catch up with Nick Harris. Just look at some of the details of other matches that were played today; Oxford United Abingdon United, I'm sorry, Abingdon United nil, Chesham three; that's in the Berks and Bucks Senior Cup second round; goals for Chesham after eight minutes, that was Mickey Bampton, twenty five minutes Mark Dauber and eighty minutes Byron Walton scoring for Chesham; so Abingdon United nil, Chesham three. And in the Oxon Senior Cup third round; Peppard five, Malborough one — Peppard's goals; after ten minutes, Sid Grover, fifteen minutes, Chris Maxted, twenty five minutes, Dave Smith, seventy five minutes, Dave Smith getting a second goal, eighty minutes, Kevin Watkins and Malborough's only goal coming in the second half through Darrell Simpson; so Peppard who do so well in the Oxford Senior Cup, Peppard five, Malborough one. Well we did have one good result locally; nice to see Abingdon Town back on the winning trail again; Vauxhall League division two south that was, Abingdon Town three, Horsham nil, our reporter, Nick Quayle. After two successive League defeats, Abingdon Town made it third time lucky today with an emphatic three nil win over Horsham here at the Culham Road. Two excellent goals from Steve Aries added to an early strike from Liam Herbert to put Town back on the winning trail. Horsham soon found themselves a goal behind as Abingdon made a tremendous start; Town won a corner on the left wing in the second minute and Keith Appleton killed the ball into the area. Liam Herbert, one of the shortest players on the pitch, rose above the defenders and placed a fine header past keeper Duncan Green to make it one nil. The visitors might have replied almost immediately when Mark Stepney rounded the defence but put his shot wide. As the game settled down, both sides struggled to get out of mid-field on a very heavy pitch, and clear chances were few and far between. Worse was to come though for Horsham as following a fifty fifty challenge on the edge of the Abingdon area, striker Paul Walker injured himself and had to be stretchered off. In the twenty seventh minute, Abingdon scored their second when Darren Hickey played an excellent ball through to Aries and Aries lobbed it over the advancing keeper into the back of the net with Kevin Connelly following up to make certain. Horsham were unable to find a way past the Town defence however much they tried and really looked out of their depth against a slick professional erm Town side. After the break, Abingdon continued to force Horsham back, although now the pitch was beginning to make an impression on some tired legs; there were mistakes from both sides and also some heavy tackles which resulted in long delays whilst players received attention. Connelly deserved more reward for his efforts as he ceaselessly pushed forward and played some excellent one twos with the front runners, but it was not until the seventy ninth minute that Abingdon sealed the result; Herbert crossed from the right wing and Aries won a challenge in the air to get a glancing header which Green turned on to the post, but the ball rebounded over the line to make it three nil. So another three points which keeps Town on the top of division two south and helps to maintain the pressure on the clubs below them; final score, Abingdon Town three, Horsham nil. Nick Quayle reporting and nice to see Abingdon Town back in good form; Town three, Horsham nil, that's in the division two south of the Vauxhall League. Back to the Manor Ground, we'll join Nick Harris I think talking to Paul Simpson. That's right Peter, Paul Simpson with us; man of the match, got his bottle of champagne, but erm not too many celebrations really tonight Paul? No I don't think so, everybody's disappointed, especially after the way we played in the first half, but erm on our second half performance, I suppose we can just count ourselves lucky we come away with a point. I mean looking at the game you just couldn't believe United would only get a point out of it erm when you went in at half time only one nil up, you so dominated the game I don't think Charlton had a chance did they? That's right, I don't think they did have a chance first half and we created maybe eight or nine chances, you know, really good clear chances and really we need to be putting more that one away and we need to kill the game off first half when we're so superior in that sort of performance, you know. But erm we went into half time, and we were very pleased with the way things had gone, and it was just a case of trying to keep it going erm we stopped them from playing erm and then we came off the second half and everything just seemed to go wrong for us. We couldn't get it forward properly, we couldn't pass to each other and they had I think they still only had one chance second half and managed to squeeze it in to get a point. The keeper had an inspired first half didn't he, Bob Bolder, and I thought the number six, Kernigan as well, I believe he's on loan from Middlesbrough; the two of them, really between you and a really big defeat. That's right, yes I mean, the goalkeeper was fantastic first half, and really we only had one chance second half, and he made a great save from Fossey. erm First half, it was a case of just throwing himself into the right area and the ball was hitting his body and you know, he was just a good example of how to be a good goalkeeper. And of course the woodwork's what saved them twice; erm Martin Foyle's header hit the underside of the bar then your free kick, when he was actually beaten, of course hit the post. Well my free kick, he actually got a touch on that as well, he tipped it onto the post for the free kick yes, but I mean even when he bounced out to Mickey Lewis, one of their defenders got a great block from about two yards out to send it out for the corner, which luckily we scored from the corner, so that we got away with it then. We sit up here and we watch a game like that and we can see the game probably just drifting away from United a little bit; you can feel that things are changing out there. Does it feel like that down on the field, do you really start to feel frustrated? erm Oh definitely yes, I mean when we're trying to play passes over the top of their defence and they're getting cut or they're going straight through to the goalkeeper, it's very frustrating for us, but really it's just a case of plugging away and trying to get things to come right. And unfortunately second half it didn't come right but as I say we've got a point out of it so we still you know, kept ourselves unbeaten for a game or two, so we've just got to try keep it going and take it from there. And as you said, really some of the football played in the first half was quite delightful wasn't it? That's right, we defended very well, we what we tried to do continued from the Oldham game was stop their back four playing. And we did it first half, and when we were in possession, we were winning it in their sort of last third of the field, and that was giving us a great chance to create scoring chances and that's what we've done again today which has worked very well. And finally, a lot of games coming up, a lot of midweek games, so plenty of chance for United to erm continue to climb the table, although three points against the side on equal points really would have been a great bonus wouldn't it? Oh yes, we definitely needed the three points today, you know, before the game we were looking to get three points erm to get one out of it we are disappointed, but as I say, the way we've played second half, we've just got to take a bit of heart from the fact that we didn't get beat. Paul, thanks very much, enjoy the champagne and let's hope erm back to winning ways, what, against Bristol next Saturday? Yes hopefully yes, we need to get three points, and we've got to get ourselves up a little bit further up the table and you know, get the pressure off us a bit. Paul, thanks very much. Okay, thank you. That's Nick Harris talking to Paul Simpson. Remarkably United haven't lost to Charlton in their last eleven meetings; today's draw means they've drawn six of them and won five of them, but for eleven meetings, United have not lost to Charlton. How they could have done with a win this afternoon. Well, a side which did win and won well; Bicester against Swindon Athletic in the Hellenic League premier division; Bicester six, Swindon Athletic one, to tell us about it, Charlie Rawling. Swindon having been beaten in the League Cup recently by Bicester, erm looked as though they were going to make a real match of it today when they scored in the eleventh minute. erm But they were disappointed when John Thorn equalised after another five minutes and he put them ahead at half time by two one. In the second half, the play was very even erm Barry Cooper away on the left, he slipped the ball to Jason Allen who scored number three, Leach had to save a high shot from Nigel Chambers who then conceded a corner doing so, the nearest as they came to scoring, and looked down just at that stage. Mark Edrich should have scored when they put through by Cooper, and Cooper made it four one a minute later. And another individual goal; in the sixty fifth minute, he also made an opening for erm Jason Allen erm and Mark Hurtling to score the fifth and Mark Hurtling came along with the sixth. And it was Bicester Town six, their highest score of the season, as far as their home matches are concerned, and Swindon Athletic one. There we are, there's Charlie Rawlings on a good win for Bicester; Bicester six, Swindon Athletic one. A good fight back for Witney today in the southern division of the Beezer Homes League; they were two goals down at home to Yate Town, but the match finished Witney two, Yate Town two, our reporter, Adrian Burcher. Witney Town turned in an excellent performance to come back from a two goal deficit to snatch a point against mid-table Yate. On a difficult pitch Witney played some very attractive football, and with a little more luck could have finished the game off in the first half. On sixteen minutes, Liam Cowell hit a good ball with the outside of the foot down the line to Steve Jenkins, Jenkins crossed and his cross was met by Julio Berazi, but Terry Stevenson made a great one-handed save to push his effort on to the bar, Kenny Clark followed up but was inches wide with his shot. Four minutes later Darren Tilly wasted a good effort for Yate when he shot weakly at Warner after evading five tackles. On thirty one minutes, Dave Warner made a fine one-handed save to tip over Richard Thompson's point blank header following Martin Tilley's corner. Warner was in action again four minutes later; Terry Stevenson's big drop kick was picked up by Kevin Thaws, he shook off the attentions of Mark Walton, but Warner spread himself superbly at his feet to block on the edge of the box. Five minutes before the interval, Witney wasted a glorious chance to go in front. The ball was worked out wide on the left to Mark Walton who hit in a point blank cross to the head of Steve Jenkins, only for the striker to direct his header against the post with a goal gaping. The second half continued in the same exciting pattern as the first, but for all Witney's pressure, it was Yate who took the lead. With the second half only four minutes old, Darren Tilly wriggled into the box and squared for Thaws who hit a low drive past Warner. Eleven minutes later, Yate had added a second; Darren Tilly's corner was headed clear but only back to the same player who returned the ball to the far post and Danny Iddles headed home. From this point, Witney knuckled down in search of the equaliser and began to get back on top of the game, and eventually on sixty nine minutes reduced the arrears. Steve Jenkins pushed the ball past Steve Winters, then chipped exquisitely to the unmarked Julio Berazi who coolly controlled the ball and drilled home. All Witney's hard work was rewarded six minutes from time; Mark Walton done brilliantly to keep the ball in play the slipped the ball back to Paul Lewis who crossed first time, and there was Steve Jenkins to head home and snatch a well-deserved point. The score once again from Marriot's Close; Witney Town two, Yate Town two. Adrian Burcher our reporter. Moving down to the Hellenic League the premier division, another win for Milton; Bishops Cleve nil, Milton one, our reporter, David Taylor. Yes, Milton manager, Keith Stock celebrated yet another birthday yesterday, and his team gave him something to celebrate with three points at Basement Club, Bishops Cleve this afternoon to see United extend their unbeaten record which stretches back to last October. But it wasn't easy in this top against bottom clash as the home side fought for every ball on the rather energy sapping surface which was only made playable some forty eight hours beforehand. In fact, Milton's skipper, Paul Storey hacked the ball off his own line in twelve minutes as Bishops looked for an early goal. After twenty five minutes Milton's centre half, Wayne Morton took a bad knock which left him with a chest injury, and this resulted in him being substituted late in the second half. Milton's top goal scorer, Nigel Mott was now settling down and causing the lanky Bob Styman problems at the back for Bishops Cleve with his probing runs down the right. But it was Bishops Cleve who went close to scoring on the half an hour as Cliff Powell on his debut ran through, his shot was parried by Paul Whittington in the Milton goal, and the Milton defence cleared the ball from the danger area as Mark Gill was on hand for Bishops to pounce on any mistakes made. But on forty one minutes it was Milton who took the lead as new signee from A E R Harwell, Robbie Munn, was on hand to slide the ball home from close range as Matt Utteridge in the Bishops' goal could only palm away Nigel Mott's probing cross to send Milton in at the interval leading by a goal to nil. Two minutes into the second half, Nigel Mott repeated his move and his cross shot which brought a goal in the first half, but the ball ran just wide. Bishops then turned up the pressure in a search for an equaliser, and it nearly came on seventy minutes as yet another debut man, Tommy Callanan blasted the ball against the underside of the ball from literally yards out when it was easier to score. The ball cannoned away to safety for Milton. Six minutes later Cliff Powell also went close but Paul Whittington did well to tip the ball over. The final twenty minutes saw play confined to the middle third of the pitch as both linesmen became rather flag happy with a succession of offside decisions which infuriated players and crowd alike. And with seven and a half minutes of injury time Milton hung on to their slender lead; final score here at Bishops Cleve was Bishops Cleve nil, Milton United one. David Taylor reporting. You're listening to B B C Radio Oxford and Talking Sport, twenty six minutes past five it is; we're going to change sports now and have a little chat about speedway, because one or two things have happened nationally and locally on the speedway scene. Joining us on the phones is the Oxford Cheetah's promoter, Bernard Crapper. Bernard, you've been to a lot of meetings since we last talked to you, what's been happening in the speedway world? Well of course there's been the erm joining of the two Leagues back to where they should have been, you know this silly split that was erm arose over the last couple of years has been put to bed now and sorted out. And we've increased the old British League by four, and equalled the two Leagues out, so we should see erm quite some interesting speedway this year. And I think the Cheetahs are very much in favour of all this aren't they? Yes, we weren't too happy with the point situation because we considered it went too low, but having said that, now that it's been democratically voted in, we are one hundred per cent in obeyance with it and we are going to go along with it. As always Bernard, at the end of each season or at the beginning of a new season, one or two clubs go by the by; we've lost a couple this year haven't we? Well we have yes, but some of those that have gone seem to be clawing their way back at the last minute erm Longeaton look to be saved again at very last knockings erm so of course Eastbourne has gone. Stoke's been saved so erm hopefully everything's sort of a lot better than it was sort of ten days ago. So Longeaton has been saved, I thought that one had gone. Well, it did go erm but Tony Mould who in actual fact is the promoter at erm Wolverhampton with Chris van Stratten, has gone into Longeaton. erm So we can only hope that he can do the job and keep them there. But he has agreed in principle to take the club over. Well let's talk about the Cheetahs for a moment. You've got six of your riders now, the seventh one will be a two point reserve; your latest one is Tony Primmer, tell us about Tony. Well Tony Primmer's an Australian and has been riding at Eastbourne and we were looking at him prior to this erm sort of amalgamation that came in because erm with our friendship with Bob Dugard, and looking for younger riders, he was sort of earmarked to come here at some stage. But not this year, but because we found ourselves in a very embarrassing situation with the forty point limit and the fact that we've got Hans Nielson on ten point three two which you know, is good in one respect, but it erm makes very difficult situations down the bottom end. erm We had to look for some lower riders and erm Tony Primmer of course comes in at four, which helps us immensely. It means you've got three Australians in the side doesn't it? It's the Oxford Cheetahs Australian Select Team now. I've always tried to keep too clear of foreign riders as you well know, but erm there aren't the riders around that you can slip in erm of the sort that we would want to put in. And as I've said before, you know, we've talked a lot about Primmer with Bob Dugard erm so we went for him. Bernard I must tell you, listening to you at the moment is Simon Wigg on one of our other lines erm just a word about Simon before I bring him in. You're obviously sad to lose him but really, he's one of these people riding all round the country who's suffered because of the forty point limit. Absolutely, you see the sad thing is that Simon has a seven point five five average erm we sort of balance that out, you know, erm Simon to go and bring in a six point National League boy — it's not a clever situation at all in my book, but then the rules are the rules and we have to go along with it. What a lot of the people don't realise, our League winning side of nineteen eighty six, up until we sold Cox a week ago, the whole team was on the table for sale or to borrow, the complete team. That's how, you know, stupid it is that we've got all these talented riders and we can't use any of them. What about Simon — erm will he go, on sale or on loan, or what, or don't you mind? Well that depends on the club that he goes to, I mean if the club can afford to buy him erm I always think it's better on the long term policy, that a rider actually rides for a club is owned by that club. I don't think any rider, with hand on heart, is happy about a loan situation, he likes to feel part of the set up. If a club comes along and offers us the right money for Simon, then so be it, but at the end of the day erm we'd like Simon on our books. Well don't go away Bernard, let's bring in Simon. Simon, you've heard what Bernard said — any news on where you're going to ride this year? erm Afternoon Peter erm hello Bernard. erm Nothing at all really at the moment, erm obviously it's early days yet as far as erm speedway goes, I mean you'd imagine it sort of getting a bit late in the day really, to get things organised. But it seems to sort of get later and later every year, so there's no big panic, I mean it's still erm you know, a month and a half away or a month from the start of the season so erm you know, there's plenty of time yet. Do you think teams are waiting for you to prove your fitness? No, I think it's just that it just seems to be like this every year now Peter, that everybody tends to erm wait until the last minute. Maybe they think they can get the riders a bit cheaper or, you know, some of the boys might be panicking about a team spot somewhere but erm you know, I think it's just the way that erm the way the world's going at the moment and erm you know, I'm certainly not erm too worried about erm you know, things at the moment really. I think you had a little bit of a soft spot for Poole didn't you, and you'd have quite liked to have gone there and a little bit perhaps disappointed when you heard that they'd picked up Marvin Cox? Well not disappointed that they'd picked up Marvin Cox because obviously they're going to need a very strong side if they're going to win anything so erm you know, with guys like Marvin around, then it's got to be a good idea, you know, they've obviously made a big jump there to grab someone they think's going to make a difference. erm What I've I've had a look at their team on paper, and erm they're not strong enough and erm you know, they need more than Marvin at the moment; they need two or three good blokes, they're a bit too sort of erm balanced really, you know, they haven't got any big fire power, so erm you know, I think they're in a bit of a spot down there, even though they probably think they're not. Just a word about your fitness Simon, last time we saw you, your neck was hanging off virtually, is it all back together again, you're rebuilt? All back together again yes, I've got to go into hospital on erm well, tomorrow actually for erm another operation erm that's to have a plate taken out of erm the collar bone which I broke in the middle of last season. But erm the doctors have told me really I can do whatever I want to straight away virtually you know, and erm I'll just give it another week or two weeks before I start practising erm and you know, I'm very fit now. I've actually never been as fit in my life before, I've been erm you know, down the gym training erm every day and erm really sort of putting some hard work in and erm you know, I'm in great shape. So erm I'm looking forward to this season much more than I have for a long time, so I can't wait, wherever I end up, we'll have to see, but erm I'm looking forward to it anyway. Yes, as you say, wherever you end up, whatever happens, I presume your long track will go ahead as usual? Oh crikey yes? Obviously you know, I'd love to erm try and win that erm win that again erm and also the grass track racing which is extremely important to me, but erm being world speedway champion is erm for me the number one now you know, I've really erm the long track scene virtually can look after itself without having to worry too much about the planning and everything. We've got a very good set up erm my mechanic Mick Day is coming back again tomorrow; I'm picking him up from the airport, so that'll be three years with him and erm I can rely on him to sort of get things ready and erm you know, we've got a great set up and really I can just concentrate on trying to be erm world speedway champion this year. That's obviously the main important thing for me and erm you know, that's what all the effort's going to be going in to. Well we wish you luck obviously Simon in all your efforts this year, we hope to see you at the Oxford Stadium at some stage, and hope it goes well for you. Thanks very much Pete — bye then. That's Simon Wigg. I'll just let Bernard have the last word, because I want to talk to you Bernard just about who's going to win the British League this year. = Or League division number one I ought to say. Division one. Division one. Yes, well obviously we erm we hope that we've put the team together that's going to do the job, but having said that, there's some handy looking teams around, I think the League is going to be pretty evened out erm at the end of the day, I don't think erm you're going to see too many people sort of struggling at the bottom end. erm I go along with what erm Simon said about Paul, I'm I thought at one time that they would go for Cox and him, to be perfectly honest, he's absolutely right on what he said, and I'm sure they're relying on the fact that I believe Paul is going to be a home track and they're going to pick a lot points up at home. I honestly believe that because they're certainly not strong enough erm to be up with the top boys, well they're not going to disgrace themselves having said that, as I said before, the League's pretty well evened out, but I think they'll be at the lower part rather than the top part. Right so we can have a few trophies at Oxford this season anyway Bernard. Well I hope so. Right and how many times, I must ask you finally, how many times will you be fined by the referees this year, you claimed a nil sheet last year, remarkably Absolutely a nil sheet yes, I have no trouble with the referees, in fact at our conference erm when they talked about referees, I put forward that erm there should be a vote of thanks for the referees, because at long last some of them are listening. And I don't mean I'm bending them, but there were some, as I've said many times, a lot of silly people refereeing in speedway, and thank goodness now, ninety nine per cent of them are being sensible and we're seeing some good refereeing. I mean you'll always erm get some controversy somewhere, but having said that, the referees were much much better this last year. Bernard Crapper thank you very much. I'll put my money that you will get fined at least once this year. Bet I don't. Bernard Crapper who's the co-promoter of the Oxford Cheetahs. Right let's catch up with what's been happening nationally on the football scene, and join Headley Feast. Yes in the F A Cup fourth round third replay between Leeds United and Arsenal at Elland Road, it was the visitors who took a two goal lead in the first half. Arsenal needed just seventeen minutes for Merson to break the deadlock, two minutes before the break, Dixon made it two nil. In the second half Leeds came roaring back, possibly looking for another replay because Chapman scored for the Yorkshire side after sixty nine minutes, but Arsenal held firm and they visit Shrewsbury in round five. Ron Atkinson's Sheffield Wednesday received a nasty shock away to Cambridge United in their fifth round tie, United going in front after eighteen minutes through Dublin, and Wednesday were to receive another rude shock seven minutes after the break when Philpot made it two nil. To add insult to injury, Taylor scored a third for Cambridge twelve minutes from time and then seconds from the final whistle Dublin scored a fourth for Cambridge United. Tottenham Hotspur who put Oxford United out of the F A Cup in the fourth round, found life difficult at Fratton Park where Portsmouth forgot their disappointing League form and led Spurs by a Chamberlain goal after forty one minutes, but Gascoigne who tormented Oxford in the last round, equalised for Spurs in the sixty second minutes, and seven minutes from time, that man Gascoigne popped up with a winner. Third division Crew Alexandra held high flying West Ham of the second to a goal-less first half at Upton Park, but after seventy one minutes the Hammers took the lead through Quinn and although Crewe fought well, their long F A Cup adventure was over. Notts County and Manchester City failed to make a vital breakthrough during the first half of their tie, it was not until the ninetieth minute that Notts County of the second beat Manchester City with a goal from Lund. In the first division, Sunderland took a thirty ninth minute lead at home to Nottingham Forest; Gabbiadini the scorer, and Gabbiadini's first goal in three months was enough to send the Roker fans away in a happy mood to celebrate their third successive home win. Chelsea entertained Wimbledon at Stamford Bridge, but neither side managed to find the net, and they finished with a point apiece. Chelsea looked the better side, but generally it was a miserable affair. And finally the other all London game between Crystal Palace and Queens Park Rangers ended without goals and with very few chances to either side. Headley Feast reporting. And we're staying with football now, we've got one more match report to give you; the Oxfordshire Senior Cup third round, most of those matches were called off, but one which did survive was Headington against Thame, and a good result for Headington; they won by two goals to nil. Here's Steve Giles. Headington Amateurs were good value for their two nil victory over Thame at Barton, which now sets up a quarter final tie at Witney. Amateurs adapted to the muddy conditions better than the visitors and dominated the game from the start. In the thirtieth minute, Gary Weaving scored what looked like a perfectly good goal, only for the linesman to rule it out for offside, to everyone's dismay. Some Headington defending by Thame then let Declan Cuddy in, but his shot hit the crossbar with Mayhew beaten. In the second half, Thame came more in to the game and created a couple of chances, however in the sixty fifth minute, Sean Liden won the ball on the halfway line, his long ball found Gary Weaving who turned and placed a low shot past Mayhew to make it one nil. Five minutes later, Thame centre half, Edwards, was dismissed from the field for aiming a punch at Tony Penge; this made Thame's task even harder especially when Penge scored two minutes later from close range to make it two nil. Thame's Russell was then dismissed for dissent taking them down to nine men, from which there was no way back and Headington ran out comfortable winners. That's Headington Amateurs two, Thame United nil. So, it's Headington Amateurs who go into the next round of the Oxfordshire Senior Cup, that's the fourth round. Well we've talked football, we've talked speedway, we're now going to talk rugby, because if you've been following the exploits of the Bicester Rugby Club, you'll know they got through to the semi-finals of a big national competition, and they play that semi-final this coming Saturday. They're playing down at Marlow and skippering Bicester I hope will be Simon Greater, welcome Simon. Good evening. Are you fit again because I know you've had a little bit of shoulder trouble I think isn't it? Oh yes, that's erm long gone, yes, no problem with the shoulder. Now you've got through to the semi-final, I always forget the title of it — it's the Provincial Insurance Cup? That's right yes. And who are you playing in the semis? A team called Old Redonians from Surrey. Have you done your homework on them? Well, unfortunately erm we were trying to erm get down to see them, but of course erm with the weather, how it's been, it's erm been virtually impossible to see any games, let alone erm go and see them. Do you know anything about them at all, their form and what sort of leagues they play in? erm We know they play in erm I think it's Surrey three, or Surrey two, erm I'm not sure which one it is actually, because they've just revamped their leagues. erm Don't really know much about them at all erm they are an old boys side erm but erm we really don't know too much about them. erm And I think erm we've got to obviously give them as much respect as possible, because for them to reach the semi-final, the same as us erm they obviously erm have got some useful players. That's been very much the case hasn't it, in previous rounds is you haven't known very much about any of the opposition so far? That's right, especially the later rounds because erm you get to play sides that you would never normally you know, even erm hear of, erm let alone play. So, yes, it's a little bit sort of shots in the dark really when you come to play them, but erm it's fifteen men against fifteen other men and erm hopefully, erm we can erm pull it off next week and get to Twickenham. We'll just have a talk about the Bicester side, are you going to be at full strength? Yes, yes, we will be at full strength. Selection erm hasn't been erm finalised yet, but erm we will probably do that erm tomorrow, or latest, Monday. Well presumably you haven't played at all in the last couple of weeks, so it's so you're feeling perhaps a little bit rusty about it all? erm Rusty in the fact that erm we haven't been able to sort of erm get out on the field with a ball in our hand, erm but erm our coach erm Ian McMillan has taken the opportunity to drag us into the gym and give us quite erm hard fitness sessions, so the fitness is still erm quite high on our side, but erm handling the ball will be a little bit rusty, but hopefully this week, now all the snow's gone, we'll be able to get out and erm move the ball about at training. There was a slight match at Twickenham this afternoon; England against Scotland Oh was there, oh I did see that yes Were you watching it and wishing? I certainly was, I was watching that and thinking ‘well, don't cut it up too much lads, because hopefully we'll be there. erm But yes, that was not a bad victory for England. It's remarkable because we've been talking about Twickenham to you ever since I think about the second round, and in those days it just seemed a little bit of a dream, but that dream is now just eighty minutes away isn't it? Yes, so people keep telling me . erm It's eighty minutes, it's that eighty minutes is a very hard game obviously erm and they will be thinking exactly the same. erm But it is the dream has become it's very close to becoming reality now. Now, next week; Old Redonians it is — down at Marlow? Yes. Two thirty kick off? erm It's a two thirty kick off yes, erm we've been informed that erm that the it will cost people two pound to enter erm where that two pound is going to go, I don't know. erm But erm hopefully we'll be taking three coach loads down erm we've booked three coaches and erm a lot of cars and a lot of supporters, not only from the club but erm from around the county. Well we wish you luck, I'm sure the whole of Bicester will emigrate down to Marlow next Saturday. Good luck Simon and I hope you make it to tread on the hallowed turf. Sorry? I hope you make it to tread on the hallowed turf. Thank you very much Simon I hope we do. Good luck to you. Simon Greater, the captain of the Bicester team, going to play Old Redonians next Saturday. Well let's catch up with the latest from the Manor ground, I think Nick Harris is back in the press box now. Nick — you've only managed to talk to Paul Simpson, I think everybody's gone and hidden themselves. yes and everybody not too happy as you can probably imagine erm Peter erm while we were talking to Paul Simpson, in fact Brian Horton was holding his press conference and I think he said the same as everybody else; ‘Bolder the opposition goalkeeper had an inspired game, but really United had the chances and the possession, and really everything to kill Charlton off long before half time and really put no pressure on themselves in the second half.’ So erm yes I think everybody's very very disappointed as I think we probably heard with Paul Simpson because United certainly in my books, played some of the best football I've seen them play since they've been back in the second division in the erm first half, but really did let things slip away a little bit in the second. They used up all their goals against Oldham didn't they, two weeks ago when they didn't force any corners at all in the match; scored five goals nevertheless. Today, had lots of corners, scored actually from a corner, or after a corner but couldn't make their possession tell. That's right erm and of course and they didn't have that little bit of luck perhaps. I wouldn't say they were lucky against Oldham, but everything ran for them today, the underside of the crossbar and the post saved Charlton on a couple of occasions and as Simpson said I think ‘Bolder on a couple of occasions really knew nothing about the saves he'd made, they were point blank, and he just happened to be there.’ But that's the way the game goes and erm I think as we said ‘as the game went on, you always had the feeling that in fact Charlton, although they had very little pressure, would sneak a goal,’ and of course that's exactly what they did. Just a word about the Oxford goal; I saw that, I saw erm Andy Melville score it, I was most surprised to hear it overruled at half time. The word came from the dressing room that it was Martin Foyle; I saw Andy Melville kick it into the net — what didn't I see? Alright, what you didn't see, and I've talked to the man who made the video, and he tells me that in fact — as played in slow motion, it does definitely show that Martin Foyle as the ball was going goalward, got the final touch to the ball and did put it into the net, no doubt that in fact it was Foyle's goal. So Foyle retains the number four shirt for next week? That's right, playing at number four and scoring every week, he must be erm very happy indeed. Nick that does mean two draws now with Charlton this season; three all away, one all here at the Manor this afternoon, and really not much between the two teams is there? I wouldn't say there was much between the two teams apart from the first half here this afternoon when United, I haven't seen United dominate a side so much for a very long time, and really, I mean you were here Peter, three or four nil at half time would not have been a bad reflection on United's performance in any way at all. To think two weeks ago they were three nil up at half time against Oldham and they're only one nil up against Charlton and they totally dominated the game. Ken Vasey didn't have to make a save in the first half, didn't really have to didn't give Charlton a chance, and even in the second half when Charlton came forward more and more, they didn't really have any chances erm one that Lee volleyed over the bar, one that was headed over the crossbar, and the chance that went in the net, so they still didn't have many chances, but erm United somehow erm construed to drop two points, and erm yes, dreadfully disappointing. And just a word about the goal scorers; Martin Foyle got the goal today, that makes him well he was leading goal scorer, he goes slightly further ahead. But none of the Oxford goal scorers are actually in the national charts, but we were saying it's because so many of them are scoring, Foyle, Magilton, Nogan, Simpson and Stein — all have scored seven or more. That's right, and I think that's very important with a side, and of course John Durning now, finished his suspension, so he'll be raring to get back in the side. No, I mean, today okay only one goal against Charlton, tremendous performance by Bolder, the post and the bar, but Oxford United do score goals and they took great chances to score goals erm it's difficult today isn't it. erm They gave away one goal, but erm that so often happens in that sort of situation, but no, people can score goals erm from anywhere from Oxford United and Jim Magilton was singled out in particular, I mean he's been with the side since October and scored nine goals from mid-field, that really is a tremendous performance. Well Nick I think you did enjoy the game but it was two points lost rather than one point gained. Oh, now doubt about that at all Peter yes, and with the sides equal on points, I'm particularly disappointed for United who obviously would have liked to have climbed above Charlton in the table. And in fact they've gone one place down the table, they've moved down to eighteenth with West Brom having a good win away at Blackburn. Yes so lots of games for United to play at the moment with the postponements, a lot of mid-week games, a lot of games up here at the Manor, but erm as so often happens with United, after a good performance or a little a good run, they never quite do it at home do they, they never quite kill sides off and they draw in games that they've played very well as they have done today. They tend perhaps just to lack that real killer instinct and erm it's such a great shame because people might laugh and joke looking at the league table, in fact United, since Christmas, have played some very good football indeed. Nick Harris, thank you very much Thank you And just to remind you that Oxford have gone down to eighteenth in the table, they've got thirty two points. Below them, it's Blackburn and Leicester with thirty, Portsmouth and Plymouth with twenty nine and really the two teams who are looking the favourites for relegation, a reminder of just two go down, Watford and Hull both have twenty five points. Well for now let's go to another Charlton, soccer legend, Bobby Charlton, you heard him on Richard Rielly's programme this afternoon, he's coming to the area next Wednesday for the press launch of the Bobby Charlton Sports Day, which will be held at the Blackbird Ley's leisure centre on the twenty fourth of April. Richard Rielly asked him for his views on Graham Kelly's plea for clubs to share grounds if England are to stand a chance of hosting the nineteen ninety eight World Cup finals. I agree with that, erm I think that the big city clubs will have to eventually start sharing. It becomes so expensive erm and if we are going to get new facilities erm we can't just keep upgrading what we've got now, we have to build new. erm And if we are going to compete in world sport then erm and if we have to apply like Manchester, who's applying for the Olympic Games, we have to have the appropriate stadia. We're not going to get it by resurrecting the stadia that we've got at the moment; new ones have to be built, and if they're going to be built in the high population areas, you know, then I think it's realistic for the clubs in that particular area to share. So I think that's a thing of the future, but I hope it's not too far in the future. One of the problems of course that erm a lot of clubs face is that the grounds were built many years ago Yes Without the motor car in mind, I mean for instance, we had Oxford, Reading and Swindon it was suggested a few years ago, that they got together and formed the Thames Valley United. mhm But that didn't happen No But the danger of course is that big business takes over, the supermarket chains and the leisure chains and mhm After all it's only a game, football isn't it? Yes, that's right. erm At the moment, well I would have thought that that was really unrealistic you know, the three teams joining together because geographically, they're not really that close. But erm where the big city teams have good communications, you know, good bus and rail services, you know, then that's it's realistic to ask them to do it. erm Unfortunately when you're short of money, you know, you have to try and get it from wherever you can and of course, in lots of cases, the supermarket chains have actually bailed out some football clubs, you know, by buying pieces of the car park etc. And it's one way that they that the clubs can get planning permission to expand a little, so I don't knock big business, I think that sponsorship in one form or another is very very important and vital. We can't just keep asking the people that actually pay to come to the matches to do it all the time, they have to be supplemented from industry anyway. I mean in Italy for example, you know some of the bigger clubs, you know they're literally run by your Fiats etc., big very very big companies, and I would say eventually, I'm not saying in the near future, but certainly eventually, that that might happen here. Big industry will have to take a bigger share of the professional clubs. Now Bobby, you're coming to join us here in Oxford next week for the press launch for something that's happening in April — tell us about that. Well British Gas are our main sponsors and we go round the country and we do erm courses, free courses for two hundred youngsters in various parts of mainland Britain, and erm we're coming to Oxford. erm And I'm very much looking forward to that, on Wednesday I'm coming and we're having a promotions day when we'll let everyone know what we're doing; when it's going to be, where it's going to be held, and erm give two hundred youngsters the opportunity to try erm the various sports, we don't just do football now either, we do lots of other sports. And British Gas have asked us in the particular area to utilise the facilities that are in the area erm to the best, and give two hundred youngsters the opportunity that they might never have had. Only one day, but nevertheless it's something that they will always remember and hopefully it will be just a spur for them to go on and do better things. Now two hundred youngsters, I'm sure a lot of those will be listening this afternoon, the actual day happens on Wednesday April the twenty fourth. How are you going to select the two hundred out of I'm sure, the many thousand that will apply for a place? Well I don't select them, I leave that to British Gas. They do it through the Social Services, erm they do it through the various schools erm they will probably give some places to the media so that they can run competitions which would encompass all the youngsters. You might not be able to come but at least you can you may at least have had the opportunity, so erm that's how they're being decided. Football obviously is the big one, so out of the two hundred you'll probably get something like eighty footballers and then out of the other five sports that we're going to host erm we will split them accordingly. But football generally speaking has to be the biggest, simply because it is the most popular still. Well Bobby we look forward to welcoming you to Oxford erm not only next week for the press launch but for the actual day in April. I look forward to that. Just finally looking back over a career that spans now five decades, is there anything you'd have done differently over the years? erm No, no I don't think so, I've erm been a successful I've been more successful that most and I it would appear greedy if I erm said that there was something that I think I would have done differently. No, I would have done it exactly the same, I would have just hoped that I would have been as lucky as I have been. And that's Bobby Charlton talking to Richard Rielly earlier this afternoon. You're listening to B B C Radio Oxford and Talking Sport, seven minutes to six, time to wrap up. Coming up in a little while we'll be talking greyhounds, but for now we'll go back to football and deal with the local classified results with all the local leagues. League division two; Oxford United one, Charlton one; Beezer Homes League southern division; Witney two, Yate two; the Vauxhall League division two south; Abingdon Town three, Horsham nil; the Oxfordshire Senior Cup third round; Headington two, Thame nil; Peppard five, Malborough one; the Berks and Bucks Senior Cup second round; Abingdon United nil, Chesham three; the Hellenic League premier division; Bishop's Cleve nil, Milton United one; Bicester six, Swindon Athletic one; in division one; Cheltenham Saracens two, Cirencester United nil; Sinderford three, Clanfield one; Cirencester Town nil, Wallingford three; Highworth Town one, Supmarine one; Kidlington one, Wootton Bassett one; the reserve division east; Milton United two, Wantage three; the reserve division west; Swindon Athletic two, Fairford three; and the Gloucestershire Senior Cup south second round; Locklees one, Almondsbury Pixon Reserves two; the Oxon Senior League the Clarendon Cup third round; Yarnton Reserves nil, Garsington Reserves one, after extra time; premier division; Bletchingdon one, Kennington United one; Eynsham five, Oakley United three; Oxford University Press one, A P Sports one; division one; Kennington United Reserves two, A F C Cowley two; division two; Charlton United Reserves one, Oxford Stadium Reserves three; Long Crendon Reserves one, Ardley United Reserves eight; the Oxford City F A Premier Cup semi-final; Northway four, Wheatley nil; the League; Beckley nil, Tetsworth five; the Lord Jersey Football Association, the Jersey Cup second round replay; Akers Athletic one, Middle Barton three; the Derek Allen Cup first round; Heyford United two, Marsh Gibbon one; the mid-Oxon Cup; Bardwell nil, Heyford Athletic two; division two of the League; Marauders Reserves one, Fritwell eleven; and the Supplementary Cup; Crusaders nil, Wootton Reserves three. On to the Witney and District F A, Senior Challenge Cup second round; Carterton Eagles six, Freeland one; Spartan Rangers eleven, Tackley one; Chadlington five, Alsvcott one; Eynstone four, Carterton A nil; Brize Norton two, Stonesfield nil; Hanborough one, Ducklington two; in the Junior Challenge Cup second round; Crusaders Reserves two, F C Mills Reserves one; the Supplementary Cup second round; Bampton Reserves nil, Witney Royals four; Freeland Reserves one, Burford Reserves nil; Askett United one, Charlbury A nil; and one result from division three; Ducklington Reserves nine, Hanborough A nil; the Banbury and District League, the Basil Taylor Cup first round; Cropredy two, Deddington Town one; the League premier division; Bodicote Sports eight, Adderbury two; and division three; Fenny Compton Reserves nil, Kings Sutton Reserves three; the Chiltonian Football League premier division; Holmer Green four, Finchampstead two; Stocklake three, Wraysbury Coopers nil; the Senior Cup second round; Binfield nil, Letcombe one; division one; Slough Y C O B three, Kodak two; and Reserve division one; Wraysbury Coopers four, Woburn Athletic nil. And of course all the other matches today in the local leagues were postponed. Just time to have a little chat about greyhounds with our greyhound man, Mick Weeble; I think you gave us one winner last week didn't you Mick? Just one Peter yes, but we'll put that down to the going I think, we'll have to put it down to something, so we'll put it down to the going. What's the going going to be like tonight because all the snow's disappeared and in fact you've been running through the snow anyway. Yes, the going will be slow tonight but erm not as slow as it has been in the past erm so it should be good. It's a good card tonight anyway and people may want to get out from the snow and have night out at the stadium. Are there some dogs who specialise in the slow going as it were, the heavy going? Yes, there is actually, I mean some of these wide runners who do tend to feel the ground erm when it's top of the ground. They'd probably be better off on the erm soft going tonight, but erm in the past few results erm it's been evenly balanced Peter, you know, but every trap's won in the last two or three meetings. So they've got no real advantage, only those that really prefer the underfoot conditions to be soft. Now I came to watch the greyhound racing, I think it was Tuesday last week with all the snow around. They're really faithful your greyhound followers aren't they, all your punters as you call them, they come snow, rain, hail, thunder, it doesn't matter. Well they're some of the best in the land, greyhound punters, I mean they'll come they like their greyhound racing, real erm diehard people and erm they'll come in any weather, I mean, the other Thursday when we really had a load of snow down, I mean no-one would come, you wouldn't even get off your couch for that, but erm we still had three hundred people attend which was erm even though as I say, we lost money on the erm meeting. It's a policy of the stadium, if they come then we'll make the effort to put the racing on for them. Well you've got the racing on tonight, give us your four winners please. Right, here we go then. In the second race which is a sprint race, that's a two bend race, I'm going to go for trap one, Brook Mead Flash trained by Paul Garland. erm Ideal draw trap one, Brook Mead Flash there for me, dangerous Flashing Sabre in five and Super Zoom in trap two. And then we come to the sixth race which is the eight forty five, well I'm going to go for Angie Baby here in trap three, she's erm a little bit of a kidder but she might have the legs of these, as long as something leads her, she'll come and erm try and do them on the line, so it's Angie Baby for me there, erm Ruby Blue in trap six is a danger. And then we come to race nine, the third leg of our yankee tonight, Radio Oxford's yankee, that's in the nine thirty two erm here I'm going to go for Kerry Limb Gold in trap six erm this one does like the underfoot conditions to be soft, so he's got it tonight — Kerry Limb Gold then as the third leg of the yankee, nine thirty two. And in the twelfth race, the six forty five erm West Mead Ricky erm adversely drawn in trap four, but nevertheless I think he's a little bit better class, so that's the fourth leg of our Radio Oxford yankee erm West Mead Ricky, that's the ten twenty. And erm if anyone's listening Peter, we do need an announcer, you know what we were speaking about on Tuesday, so erm if anybody's interested like, preferably it would suit a female better I think erm they want to contact John Blake on Monday. Right, Mick Weeble, thank you very much. Thank you Peter. Mick Weeble from the greyhound stadium. Just time to tell you that Ken Clarke won Guess the Scores from Headington; he said it would finish one all at the Manor, and he said that Martin Foyle would get the goal. We'll be in touch with you Ken. Thanks for listening to us on Talking Sport this afternoon, we'll all be back again next Saturday, same time, same place. Coming up next, the news at six. Yes hello, good evening welcome to Talking Sport. Tonight's local headlines: a last minute goal gives Oxford United a well deserved one nil win over Portsmouth at the Manor. The game was set for the second goal-less draw at the ground in four days, when Andy Melville scored following a free kick. United move three places up the table to fifteenth, and they're now ten points clear of the two relegation positions. Elsewhere there are wins for Witney, Thame, Didcot and Oxford United Youth team; Carterton beat Banbury; Bicester beat Milton; there's a draw for Abingdon Town; defeats for Oxford United Reserves, Oxford City, Wantage and Headington Amateurs. Well full details of most of these games coming up over the next hour here on Talking Sport, now though the leading local results: League division two; Oxford United one, Portsmouth nil; the Beezer Homes League southern division; Witney one, Erith and Belvedere nil; the Vauxhall League division two south; Harefield two, Abingdon Town two; the South Midland League premier division; Langford one, Thame two; the O'Brien Trophy; Tring three, Oxford City one; the Hellenic League premier cup; Banbury one, Carterton two; Bicester two, Milton nil; Didcot one, Almondsbury nil; Wantage nil, Bishops Cleve one; the premier division; Hounslow three, Headington Amateurs one; Swindon Athletic one, Abingdon United nil; the Combination League; Portsmouth Reserves four, Oxford United Reserves two; and the south-east Counties League; Oxford United one, Swindon nil; now for the classified football results, here's Headley Feast. Barclays League division one; Coventry City three, Crystal Palace one; Derby County three, Sunderland three; Luton Town one, Nottingham Forest nil; Manchester United nil, Everton two; Queens Park Rangers one, Manchester City nil; Sheffield United two, Aston Villa one; Southampton two, Leeds United nil; Tottenham Hotspur one, Chelsea one; Wimbledon nil, Norwich City nil; division two; Barnsley two, Watford one; Blackburn Rovers two, Swindon Town one; Brighton and Hove Albion one, Oldham Athletic two; Bristol Rovers one, Milwall nil; Charlton Athletic two, Bristol City one; Hull City nil, Middlesbrough nil; Ipswich Town nil, Wolverhampton Wanderers nil; Newcastle United two, Leicester City one; Oxford United one, Portsmouth nil; Plymouth Argyll two, Port Vale nil; West Bromwich Albion nil, West Ham United nil; division three; Birmingham City two, Swansea City nil; Bournemouth one, Chester City nil; Bury two, Wigan Athletic two; Fulham one, Reading one; Mansfield Town one, Grimsby Town one; Shrewsbury Town nil, Preston Northend one; Stoke City two, Exeter City one; division four; Aldershot one, Doncaster Rovers one; Blackpool three, Hereford United nil; Carlisle United two, Wrexham nil; Darlington one, Stockport County nil; Gillingham nil, Chesterfield one; Halifax Town five, Walsall two; Hartlepool United nil, Torquay United nil; Peterborough United two, Maidstone United nil; Scarborough three, Lincoln City nil; Scunthorpe United two, York City one; the Scottish B and Q League premier division; Aberdeen one, Rangers nil; Celtic three, St Johnstone nil; Dundee United one, Dunfermline Athletic nil; Hibernian four, St Mirren three; Motherwell one, Heart of Midlothian three; the first division; Airdrionians nil, Dundee one; Ayr United five, Wraith Rovers three; Breckin City two, Hamilton Academicals two; Falkirk one, Clyde nil; Partick Thistle two, Forfar Athletic nil; the second division; Alloa one, Montrose nil; Arbroath nil, Stirling Albion one; Cowden Beath two, Albion Rovers two; Dunbarton two, East Fyfe one; Queens Park three, Queen of the South nil; Stenhouse Muir nil, East Stirlingshire nil; and the Tenants Cup fourth round; Morton three, Meadowbank nil. Headley Feast with today's classified football results. So, a victory for Oxford United; it came after a few of the supporters had left the ground, it came in injury time — Oxford United one, Portsmouth nil, reporting on the match, a very happy Nick Harris. Oxford United were heading for their second successive nil all game, when in the first minute of injury time, central defender, Andy Melville popped up in the penalty area to score a vital goal, and to give United three vital points in their fight against relegation. Before then, despite a number of chances, this game had nil all written all over it; United did have their chances, they hit the post, Steve Foster and Martin Foyle both went close but the ball never appeared to be going into the back of the net. And full credit to the visitors Portsmouth, they pushed more and more men forward as the game progressed and they almost snatched it towards the end. Well, United started in fine style as early as the twentieth second; Martin Foyle was brought down on the edge of the penalty area and Paul Simpson's free kick was headed away for a corner. Back came Portsmouth and Colin Clark's header well held by Ken Vasey at the other end while two minutes later, Jim Magilton turned well on the edge of the Portsmouth penalty area, but his dipping shot was well held by the visitor's goal keeper, Andy Gosney. United were on top but it was a scrappy game, full of fouls as both sides tried to gain some sort of control; one touch football as I say, a lot of misplaced passes and a lot of fouls, although United had a chance in the fifteenth minute when Martin Foyle almost headed home Paul Simpson's cross from the right at the near post. Mike Ford then shot over the bar from thirty yards, and in the thirtieth minute, Graham Hogg was booked for a challenge on Lee Nogan; Hogg who'd performed so well at the heart of the Portsmouth defence. United's best chance of the half came just a minute later; Martin Foyle ran on to the perfect Paul Simpson through ball, he actually got past goal keeper Andy Gosney but he was forced just a little bit wide. He ran into the path of fellow striker, Lee Nogan, and as both hesitated who was going to put the ball into the empty net, the chance had gone and the ball was hacked away. Three minutes later Simpson ran on to a back pass, he got his foot to the ball just before Gosney, he collided with the goal keeper, but full marks the goal keeper, he grabbed the ball at the second attempt, and once again, the chance had gone. Portsmouth then had a good spell, they forced two successive corners but the half ended with United so almost scoring. In the forty third minute, Foyle volleyed wide from fifteen yards when really he should have been on target after receiving from Magilton, and as referee Taylor was looking at his whistle to blow it for half time, United skipper, Steve Foster drove forward from the edge of the penalty area, shrugged off a couple of challenges, hit a good low shot, seemingly under the body of Gosney, but Gosney's body just halted the flow of the ball. It still ran away from him but he grabbed it again at the second attempt before it went over the line and the chance had gone. The second half followed very much the same pattern, a minute in to the half, a delightful United move involving Magilton, Phillips, Nogan and Philips, but Phillips' final cross to Nogan was just a little bit too long. Portsmouth then lost Warren Aspell with an ankle injury and he was replaced by Sean Murray. United then forced two successive corners and in the sixty second minute, another good build-up by United, it ended with Magilton almost getting through but his shot was blocked by Gosney who was injured making the save and Nogan volleyed the cross inches wide. Portsmouth's best chance came in the sixty fourth minute, a great breakaway down the left, the cross coming in, seventeen goal man Guy Whittingham getting his head to the ball, but it wasn't going to be his eighteenth goal of the season, because Ken Vasey dived to his right, just got his finger tips to the ball and held on to it and the chance had gone. United then brought on John Durning for Mickey Lewis, Magilton had the best chance of the game in the seventy third minute when he was cleared through, he shot from ten yards, he beat Gosney, hit the post and bounced away. It all then got rather frustrating and a little worrying as Portsmouth looked more and more dangerous; in the seventy seventh minute Les Robertson was booked for a foul on Russell and a minute later John Beresford booked for a foul on Nogan. As time ran out, Martin Cool right on the stroke of full time got in a great volley, it was well held by Ken Vasey. But then United broke to the other end and won a free kick a minute into injury time. Twelve yards outside the Portsmouth penalty area, left side to be taken by number eleven, Paul Simpson surely their last chance in this game. Simpson raises his hands in the air, United have got Andy Melville and Steve Foster at the far post, Simpson still delays taking the kick, now it comes in, he knocks it in to the far post, looking for Paul, Paul heads it back over the top — and they've scored. Oxford United has scored, it's Andy Melville that has put the ball into the net, into injury time, the cross came in, Martin Foyle headed it back across the face of the goal and it's Andy Melville that has surely clinched three vital points for Oxford United; into injury time, Oxford United one, Portsmouth nil. And that was that. Almost immediately referee, Paul Taylor blew his whistle, the poor Portsmouth fans made their sad way home to the south coast, the players with heads drooped, left the field and many of the United fans were already leaving the ground in the crowd of five hundred five thousand, two hundred and twenty six when Andy Melville scored that vital goal which gave United three very important League points. Final scoreline up here at the Manor; Oxford United one, Portsmouth nil. A very delighted Nick Harris bringing us the good news about Oxford United getting through and winning today against Portsmouth by a goal to nil. And that's moved them no less than three places up the second division table, they're higher than I think they've been for many a long day. Their up to fifteenth in the table, they leap frog over Portvale, West Bromwich Albion and Charlton; I've got that wrong, in fact they move over Portvale, Portsmouth and West Brom, Charlton of course winning today and going up, and Plymouth. But United are now fifteenth with thirty six points and although it's very close behind them; Port Vale have thirty six, West Brom thirty five, Charlton thirty five, Plymouth thirty five, Portsmouth thirty five, Blackburn and Leicester both have thirty three. The important thing is, they've moved well away from the relegation area; poor old Watford and Hull, things looking very bleak for them, they're trailed seven points behind Leicester, ten points behind Oxford, both Watford and Hull have twenty six points. Well, I think we can go back to the Manor ground. Well welcome back to the Manor ground, I've got with me a delighted United goal keeper, Ken Vasey; mighty close Ken. Yes it was yes, last sort of quarter of an hour they was pressing forward and you know, it always looks like you know, they're going to nick it but, we held out. It's two clean sheets on the chart and erm you know, a great goal by Andy. Very frustrating time I think for everybody that last sort of quarter of an hour, nothing really flowing properly, you coming under increasing pressure — difficult time for a goal keeper then? Yes, it's very hard because you get to that stage where you know you can only really push forward for so long, then when it you know, the whistle looms near, you try and you know, you're just going to go for the result really, and keep it you know, a clean sheet and just get a point out of the game. Did you see much of the goal, or as it was a free kick floated in and Martin Foyle headed it back across the face of goal and erm your partner in crime really at the back put it in. Yes it erm you know, Martin's done well, he's got up and just nodded it down for Andy and erm he's took it well; a little touch and he's just finished it very well, so you know, I'm pleased for him. But he's making a bit of a habit isn't he, Notts County I think it was, very much the same situation; three two then for a three all draw, he scored right at the end then. Yes, he seems to pop up and get the important goals when they're needed and you know, none was more important than today really. Now we talk about the second successive clean sheet, the first for United what, Wednesday night against Milwall since October the twentieth, so what's happened to stop the goals going in? Oh there are no, you know with the gaff this time, a lot of work like during the week and that and we've tightened up quite a bit and tried to you know, get ourselves organised. And hopefully you know, hopefully get another one Wednesday, or Tuesday night as you say. Couple of good saves today you must be pleased with; Wittingham got in one very good header didn't he. He looked a dangerous striker and got in a good header which I think you got to the right and got your hand to? Yes, you're always wary of erm people like that you know, their reputation goes before them, and erm you don't really see the ball till late, he just flicked it down, I just done enough to get down and erm you know, get my right hand to it and like, Steve Foster was following up well and that and you know, that's the things that we've got the run with us now. And right on the almost on the final whistle just before United scored in injury time, I think mid-fielder Martin Cool got in a very good volley didn't he from some distance, but it really was whistling toward goal? Yes, he took a deflection off erm Andy Melville, I think he was going for his second, and erm I just managed to you know, just get down to my left and just keep it there, and it just sort of stuck so I was pleased with that. How about yourself, you've settled well at United, though strangely when you were on loan everything seemed to be going so well didn't it, there were some good results coming. Since you signed it's been a little bit up and down, some goals conceded, not necessarily down to you, so you must be pleased that things have settled down a bit? Yes it goes like that, like you say, you know, it's come in and I didn't have nothing to lose and things were going well, then there's been a bit of a lull and erm like I say, we've worked hard and we've like with following in on this save earlier on. Before there would have been a striker in there to finish it, so that's the way to do it, you know the roles are reversed and we've getting a bit of luck. A very important time coming up for the club, some very important games, no more important to people in this area than the game at Swindon on Tuesday night, But then away to Middlesborough, home to West Ham, still something to play for for Oxford United this season if the results keep going their way? Well it's always going to be hard because we're, you know, near the bottom and that and it's very tight, you know just a win or a loss like, it puts you either three places up or right near the bottom. So obviously there's a few tough games ahead, but you know, with erm if we set our out right and keep working hard, then hopefully we can get a few points and maybe push ourselves further up the table. And finally, Tuesday night — probably to you, what, a Londoner and playing down in Torquay, the game against Swindon, never taken so much significance, but a very very important game for Oxford United and their followers. Oh yes, you only had to listen to this afternoon like, with the crowds and that, obviously it means a lot to them and there's a lot of you know, stick I suppose goes around between the two clubs, so I just want to go out there, hopefully have a good game and keep a clean sheet. Ken thanks for coming to talk to us. Lovely, thanks a lot. And that's Nick Harris talking to Ken Vasey up at the Manor ground and we hope to return to the Manor in a few moments time and see who else Nick has got to talk to us. Still waiting for a lot of the reports to come in, but we did have one winner on Guess the Scores this afternoon. Only one person remarkably said that Oxford United would win by one goal to nil, I think loads of people go for the three ones or the four ones or things like that. And our one person was Terry Phipps from Abingdon, he's on the line at the moment, Terry well, you felt it was going to be one nil did you or? Yes, just a hunch feeling, they just kept a clean sheet in the last game, and I thought perhaps they might keep another one, but erm and scramble a goal — it was very late wasn't it? But you went for Paul Simpson I think to score? I did indeed yes. Have you been in for this Guess the Scores, have you won anything before? No, first time, well first time on Guess the Scores, just the odd quiz that I've won before; horse racing. Right, well there is a horse racing quiz coming up later in the programme, so keep listening Keep listening There's a superb prize to that, well congratulations, you'll receive a small Radio Oxford pen and mug, because you didn't get the goal scorer right. That's right. But congratulations, well done. Okay Peter. And we'll take your name and address and that'll be in the post to you, congratulations to you. Thanks a lot. That's Terry Phipps from Abingdon who gets the Radio Oxford Guess the Scores prize this week, but he doesn't get the full prize because he didn't get the goal scorer right. Waiting to tell us about a victory for Bicester over Milton in the Hellenic League premier cup; Bicester two, they're going so well at the moment, Milton nil; Charlie Rawling. This was a very even match with both goals coming under pressure during the first half. The first real chance fell to Ron Munn for Milton when he was put clear, but Leach dived at his feet to block his shot. Mark Edwards for Bicester should have scored after good work by John Thorne and Barry Cooper, but he only half hit his shot and keeper Whittington saved. Despite gaining a second corner during the half, Milton failed to penetrate the home defence and at half time neither side had scored. Both sides forced early corners in the second half, and from one back pass by Stewart Peak to keeper Leach, had the keeper diving full length to save. In the sixty fifth minute after recovering from some heavy pressure, Bicester broke away for Mark Edwards to open the score with a low shot from twenty five yards, Whittington helping the ball over the line when he dived to save. Milton forced Bicester back again on defensive and many more corners came their way, but the defence coupled with a save from Leach held firm. With six minutes of the game to go Bicester gained a free kick; Walton placed the ball to the far post where Barry Cooper receiving the ball on his chest, turned quickly to score in to the top of the net. Also erm they went near again erm and Thorn put one over the bar. Milton tried hard in those last few minutes and forced Bicester on the defensive, but they failed to break down and Bicester won two nil in this very very entertaining cup match. Thank you very much Charlie Rawling, that's the Hellenic League premier cup; Bicester two, Milton nil, back to the Manor ground and let's join Nick Harris. Well thank you Peter, yes I've got the man of the moment with me — Andy Melville, absolutely delighted erm oh, it was a frustrating old time wasn't it, what an important goal. Yes, I think it's most probably one of the most important goals I've ever scored in my life, especially when it was last minute, now because we soaked a lot of pressure up and as I say, it's the best time to score. What actually happened? We saw the free kick come in from Paul Simpson, it appeared that Martin Foyle headed the ball back across the face of the goal, then it was all a little blurred, and you appeared with the ball in the net. Yes it is a set piece that we practice in training. It's I normally go first and then Foster comes behind me, but I think erm Simpson over hit and was far post, he knocked it back, I had a touch and then just erm slotted her home, which is erm quite erm good. Fair amount of arguing, I don't know if that's part of the ploy with the free kick, just before it came over I think you were getting frustrated that the free kick wasn't coming over quick enough, a lot of arms being raised, is that a ploy or was it actually real frustration? No that's not frustration, that is a ploy, I just stick my hands up and show everybody that erm we messed a free kick up and then Paul erm slots it through. You're making a habit of this of course, Notts County not so many weeks ago, three two the game was, and then you popped up with the equaliser right in the dying seconds. Yes, what it was, early in the season when I was playing left back erm I had to stay back, but recently because I'm playing centre half, I get up to get the set pieces, so it's nice for me as well. Must be pleased, as was Ken Vasey we spoke to earlier, that you didn't concede a goal for the second game in succession, and the defence does look a lot tighter doesn't it? Yes, I think we defended quite well, obviously Ken erm is going to have a few saves each game anyway which I thought he done very well today. But I think we soaked a lot of pressure up and in the end, I think we deserved the points. They've got two strikers that can cause problems haven't they, Colin Clarke, he's been about a fair bit, and Guy Whittington had one really good chance where Ken Vasey made a very good save? That's right, the record erm first half, you've got Whittington who scored erm I think nearly on twenty goals and Clarke who's played for Norther Ireland several times. So we done well to keep them out. And how about yourself, you obviously weren't that happy playing at left back for Oxford United, and you've slotted into the central defence, playing a lot happier and of course, driving forward when you can for these goals? That's right yes, as I say I've been left back and I won very comfortable, but in the middle I'm a lot more comfortable. Obviously we had a few injuries at the start of the season, so hopefully we can go from strength to strength now. And of course resurrected your international career which I am sure you're delighted about. Well I hope so anyway because I'm not going to play erm international football at left back, I'm going to play it at centre half, so hopefully erm Terry scouts will be watching me. Very important time coming up for United — really can resurrect a fair bit of the season with what, the game at Swindon on Tuesday, Middlesborough away, West Ham at home; good results in those games really could put a bit of a gloss on the season? Yes I think so, I think erm if you look at the gap between erm the bottom clubs and the play off places, it's not that very big. I think if you get four, five results together, I think you might be in with a shout. Finally, the big game Tuesday night — I don't think you'd mind popping up, what, in injury time scoring the winner down there? Oh it would be really nice you know, especially for the supporters that's been behind us all season, so hopefully we can do it for them. Andy thanks for coming to talk to us. Okay, cheers, thank you. Nick Harris talking to the goal scorer, the hero of the moment, Andy Melville. Well, so United won one nil, so did Witney, that was in the Beezer Homes League southern division. And an important win it was over Erith and Belvedere, both teams struggling at the bottom of the southern division; to tell us all about it, Adrian Burcher. A goal from Julio Berazi after five minutes was enough to settle this relegation battle against Erith and Belvedere at Marriots Close this afternoon. Throughout the game, neither side managed to take control in a typical basement battle, although the majority of the chances fell to the home side. Witney's winner came courtesy of a set piece; Town were awarded a free kick which Dave Watson swung to the edge of the six yard box. Kenny Clark flung himself forward at the ball, only to see his efforts strike the foot of the post, but Julio Berazi was on hand to stab home and collect his fourth goal of the season. Five minutes before the interval, Berazi nearly added a second when Dave Watson swung a corner to the far post and Berazi followed inches wide. The second half continued to see both teams fighting for supremacy. On fifty minutes, Andy Leach made a good saving tackle on the edge of the six yard box as Hugh Mann prepared to unleash a shot, and Dave Warner parried Graham Daniels follow up wide. A minute later, Dave Watson had a goal-bound effort blocked. Steve Jenkins knocked the ball back to Gary Murphy, who fired a testing cross into the area. Mickey Orme punched clear under pressure from Clark, but only as far as Watson who returned a thunderous volley which was blocked by Angoll . On sixty one minutes, Steve Jenkins turned well in the centre circle and sprayed the ball wide to Mark Walton, who in turn pushed the ball up the line to Berazi. Berazi turned inside angle, then crossed low to the near post, where Orme just managed to scramble the ball away. As the game entered the closing stages, both sides had good chances to score; the first fell to Steve Jenkins who was evaded by inches from Mickey Wiggins' cross, whilst up the other end, Warner had to be on his toes when he held a point blank header from John Parry. Eight minutes from time, Witney lost the services of the lively Julio Berazi, who left the field with an injury, but by this time, Witney had done enough to seal the three most valuable points. The score once again from Marriotts Close; Witney Town one, Erith and Belvedere nil. So a very good result there for Witney in the Beezer Homes League. A good result too for Abingdon Town, I expect they'll be quite happy with a draw, away to Harefield. They are the leaders of the Vauxhall League division two south, so I suppose you could say they dropped two points today; Harefield two, Abingdon Town two, our reporter, Nick Quayle. Four goals, one sending off and one booking was the story of this match as Abingdon Town drew two two with Harefield United. But there have not been many games with such drama as we saw here today. Abingdon started the game with five defenders once again, leaving Liam Herbert and Steve Aries up front . But the two strikers looked unable to make an impact early on against the big Harefield back four, and it was Harefield who appeared most dangerous in the opening period, putting Town keeper, Mickey Cummings under a lot of pressure. It was the home side who took the lead in the twenty sixth minute when Doug Taylor beat Brian House on the right wing, put in a low cross and Pedro Herbert crept in behind the defence to score. Town rallied and had a good effort from Kenny Campbell, well saved by keeper, Andy Hopping, after Roger Charles had found him with a great cross, but Harefield went in at half time with a deserved one nil lead. After the break, Town began to assert themselves and came close several times through Charles and Liam Herbert, but it was not until the fifty sixth minute that they equalised. Town won a corner on the left, there was cross to Campbell, who hit a superb volley against the far upright, and Steve Aries took the rebound well to score. A minute later, Harefield's Paul Swayles was lucky to stay on the field, after a deliberate elbow in the face of Aries, which left the Town striker writhing in agony. But referee Hart did not even award a free kick. In the sixty fourth minute, Pedro Herbert restored the home side's lead when he picked up the ball on the break and side footed it past keeper Cummings, to make it two one to Harefield. The home side now began to look much the better side and Cummings kept Town in it with a fine selection of acrobatic saves. In the seventy fifth minute, Swayles repeated his elbow in Aries' face, and received only a booking this time. As tempers began to fray, the game deteriorated and Kevin Connelly, when disputing a decision with referee Hart, got his marching orders, reducing Town to ten men. But the drama did not end there; just as Harefield were looking comfortable, John Harvey Lynch put the back four under pressure, and Harefield's erm Gary Downs headed a superb own-goal past his keeper who was off balance, to make it two two in the eighty sixth minute. Town's Roger Charles was carried off the field following a crunch and tackle just following this, but the score remained at two each, so the final result; Harefield United two, Abingdon Town two. And Nick, just before you go, I said before you came on ‘Abingdon Town clear at the top, but they do have they have played a few more games in their chases’, but I gather the results elsewhere went your way today. That's right, there's been some very good results I hear. Apparently Malvern Vale and Egham, who are both erm looking dangerous just below Abingdon Town, they both lost today, at home, so some very good news there. One excellent point for Town then today. Thank you very much Nick Quayle, our reporter on that match, so a draw for Abingdon Town. Defeat though for Oxford City, that was in the O'Brien Trophy of the South Midland League. They went to Tring Athletic; Tring three, Oxford City one, John Shepherd. City gave another disappointing display as they made their second Cup exit of the week, when in their replay in the O'Brien Trophy game, they went by the went down by three goals to one. They had expected to record their fourth victory over home side this season, but on a poor service, the game was a dour affair, as neither side dominated the proceedings. Two chances were created as the keeper saw little action. Richard beat the offside track as he collected a through ball from Howard Barber, but Nick Taylor's challenge forced him to put wide. City came under some pressure from Tring, but the home side never looked down to a sub front. After a break, the play had more life with it as City stepped up the pressure and encamping their opponent's half for long periods. Pat Callaghan was just wide with his effort and Chris Copes was forced to kick clear as Steve Hudds beat a header off the line. Suddenly Tring found themselves in front, with City committed to attack, Tring suddenly broke down the right and Danny Glass saw his strike-on goal pushed away by Taylor, but only into the path of Danny Rook following up, who put home after sixty five minutes. Three minutes later, City equalised with a simple executed move;set up Stewart Taverner to send a deep cross to the far upright where Hudspeth could pick his spot for his header into the net. In the seventy fifth minute, City fell behind again as Steve Cowell crossed from the left to the far side, for Weesker to dive and squeeze a header just inside the post. Peter Foley, who had come on as a substitute struck the upright with a powerful drive, for the ball to rebound clear. City's miserable week was confirmed when with eighty two minutes gone, Steve Brown brought down Cowell in the area as he made a run for the by-line. From the penalty spot, Rook drove into the corner for his second of the game and give his side a passage into the next round, a defeat that sees City's interest in Cup games at an end for this season. Final score; Tring Athletic three, Oxford City one. So, defeat for Oxford City. You're listening to B B C Radio Oxford and Talking Sport, the time's just gone five thirty. Coming up in the next half hour, there'll be a chance to win some superb prizes, that's for horse racing fans, so stay listening for that. We'll be talking motor racing and talking to the new Eddy Jordan Formula One team. Now though we're staying with football, moving down to the Hellenic League Premier Cup, and a narrow win for Didcot; just the one goal in it; Didcot one, Almondsbury nil, our reporter, Ken Coles. Although not looking particularly inspiring, Didcot held a one nil lead over visitors Almondsbury Pixons in this second round of the premier division cup by half time. It was in fact the visitors who could easily have been in front, but for some brilliant tackling by Jason Miller, who on four occasions, kept out both Terry Patterson and Chris Loud. Didcot's keeper, Andy Tucker was the first into action, punching away a dangerous looking free kick by Alec Stocker. The first of Miller's important tackles came after twenty two minutes, as Town's defence was caught wide open, but before Loud could pass to the unmarked Patterson, he dropped him superbly. Didcot broke the deadlock after twenty eight minutes, he won a few good moves of the match as Rollston Ricketts fouled Paul Spittle and John Ward rewarded his first class pass. Almondsbury found another gear after the interval and kept Didcot's defence on overtime, but so well did they play, goal keeper Andy Tucker was rarely troubled. Their man of the match was no doubt Gary Kemp, who was the instigator of so many of their attacks. Didcot's scorer looked in with a chance of a second, and also taking the pressure off when he was put through, but instead of trying what looked a goal chance, chose to pass after sixty one minutes. With four minutes of the match remaining, a scramble in the Didcot goal mouth saw Patterson hold his head in disbelief as his shot went literally inches wide, to stop them at least taking the match into extra time, and give a most relieved Didcot a one nil victory to go into the third round. That's Ken Coles reporting on that victory for Didcot. Well I think we'll just go back go the Manor ground and have a quick word with Nick Harris. Nick, you've heard something quite amusing about the goal scorer today, Andy Melville? That's right. Well apparently erm Peter, last week at Bristol City, that very disappointing display, Andy Melville was awarded the United man of the match award erm down at Bristol, which I believe, I do stand corrected on this, was probably a bottle of something, and a suit holder, something you carry your suit in. But Brian Horton kept it in his office and said that he couldn't have it until everybody stepped up the game a little bit, and they stopped conceding goals. erm Well they had a very good game against erm Milwall on erm Wednesday night, which they drew nil all, an excellent game here today erm scored the vital winning goal and duly Brian Horton handed over the loot after the game today and said ‘there you are, you can take the man of the match award’. Great, okay Nick, thanks for that, we'll come back to you in just a moment, but I did promise a racing competition. Now if you're a racing buff, listen out because it's a superb prize, if you consider yourself a little bit of an expert on the turf that is. Each year the Time Form company up in Yorkshire produce a publication called ‘Racehorses of 1990’ or whatever year is appropriate. Well the new edition's just come out and it's in the shops shortly, it's priced sixty five pounds, and as usual they've let Radio Oxford have a copy to give away as a prize. And not only that, there are four runners up prizes as well to be won, and these are a copy of the Time Form's ‘Horses to Follow’. Now of course, ‘Racehorses of 1990’ is the bible of the racing man, it's over a thousand pages in total, there are pen portraits of all the eight thousand horses that ran on the flat in England in 1990, and lot's more as well . Well that's going free to the first person to ring us on three double one, one double one with the answers to these three questions, listen carefully. When Quest for Fame won the Derby and Sanglemore won the French Derby, it provided a first season trainer with a rare double, who was that trainer? When Quest for Fame won the Derby and Sanglemore won the French Derby, it provided a first season trainer with a rare double, who was the trainer? Secondly, who rode both those horses to victory and thirdly, who owns both those horses? Three double one, one double one, get ringing quickly. I want to know who trained Quest for Fame and Sanglemore, he was a first season trainer, who rode both of them to victory in the respective Derbys and who owned both of them. So there we are, lines are open, three double one, one double one, I see one or two are ringing already, you'll have to be very quick. Here's Headley Feast with a run down today of the top football action. Yes, struggling Coventry City at home to Crystal Palace had a convincing win; Peak gave them the lead after thirty six minutes, and three minutes into the second half, Kilkline made it two nil. The same player scored number three after sixty seven minutes, Palace scored a consolation goal four minutes from the time through Wright. Derby County rooted to the foot of the first division, were involved in a goal avalanche at the baseball ground where Sunderland were the visitors. Armstrong gave Sunderland the lead after twelve minutes and Gabiadini increased their lead five minutes later. Ball made it three nil after twenty three minutes, then tragedy struck for Sunderland, because Hardiman was carried off injured and Derby came roaring back. Saunders scored twice after thirty eight and forty five minutes and notched his hat trick with a penalty twelve minutes from time. Manchester United lost to Sheffield United in the week and at Old Trafford this afternoon they were struggling again when Everton scored twice in the first half through Newell and Everton; Everton the winners by two goals to nil. Queens Park Rangers at home to Manchester City took the lead after just thirteen minutes through Ferdinand, and to add to Manchester City's misery, they had Pointon sent off. A slender win for Q P R, but enough to give them three important points. Sheffield United making a strong bid to escape the jaws of relegation, started well in their match against Aston Villa, a team also in need of points. Sheffield went ahead in the forty ninth minute through Bryson, and although Mountfield equalised for Villa, seven minutes later, Dean restored the lead for Sheffield after sixty two minutes. And United continued to haul themselves away from the basement with a two one win. Southampton playing Leeds United at the Dell went into an early lead with Rideout scoring after ten minutes. Cockerill made it two nil after seventy three minutes and could have been more as Shearer missed a penalty; the final score; Southampton two, Leeds United nil. The all-London clash between Spurs and Chelsea at White Hart Lane saw Chelsea take the lead through Dury in the twentieth minute, and five minutes before the break, Lineker equalised for Spurs from the penalty spot; one one, the final score line. Wimbledon and Norwich met at Plough Lane and the match finished a point apiece, but no goals. In Rugby Union; Ireland seven, England sixteen; so England claim the triple crown with two late tries after a passionate Ireland side threatened to deny them. Rory Underwood's try put England ahead for the first time in the match with just seven minutes to go after a spell of relentless pressure on the home side. Ireland had deservedly taken the lead in the first half through Brian Smith after good loose play swarmed England. Simon Hodgkinson levelled at his fourth goal attempt, but a late try for Ireland signalled the grandstand finish sealed by a Mike Teague try. And the other match; France crushed Wales by thirty six points to three. Serge Blanco sealed an easy victory with a conversion in the final minute of injury time in Paris. France dominated the second half and the Welsh defence responded well but couldn't contain the onslaught. And staying with rugby, today's local results in the Uniciss computer's merit table; Sutton and Epsom six, Oxford thirty one; in the Oxfordshire merit table, an easy win for Grove; Grove fifty four, Harwell nil; in club matches; Banbury thirty four, Aylesbury six;Oldwood Giftians fourteen, Oxford Old Boys eighteen; Abingdon twenty eight, Aldermarston nil; Andover sixteen, Cholsey seven; Chipping Norton seven, Smiths nil; Tring thirteen, Gosford All Blacks nil; and Sidcup nine, Henley twenty four. A reminder you're listening to B B C Radio Oxford and Talking Sport, the time is twenty one minutes to six. In about ten minutes time we'll be catching up with all the local football league results. But now motor racing, and earlier this afternoon, if you were listening to Saturday Special with John Briggs, you may have heard Eddy Jordan talking about his career in motor racing, leading up to his entry into Formula One this season with the Eddy Jordan Racing Team. And the first race is next weekend, that's in America in Phoenix. For newcomers, the Jordan team has already really caught the eye, and remarkably all the established teams are a little bit frightened of them. I visited the local Oxfordshire set ups, that's Williams, Benneton and Leyton House in the last couple of weeks, and all of them say ‘Eddy's got a good car, a good chassis, a good engine and he's got good finance’, and they expect him to be right up there with the big names from the start. Eddy himself lives in Oxford, and this morning he told me that the final piece of his Formula One jigsaw fell into place recently with a major sponsorship deal from soft drink manufacturers, Seven Up. And that's the backing that should cover nineteen ninety two as well. I thought I was quite a reasonable driver, I got as far as running at the front in World Sports Car Championships erm finished on the podium several times in International Formula Three erm And I'm sorry we appear to have a little bit of a problem with that tape, we have the wrong tape. I think we can go back to the Manor ground though and have a quick word with Nick Harris. You've been sitting listening to things for a while, how are things Nick? We're at the right speed here Peter, we're okay. Yes, obviously as you can imagine, everybody very buoyed up, it well, it's like any sport, it one moment can change everybody's outlook, everybody's evening, everybody's weekend, and that's of course, that's what's happened here. I think half the crowd were on their way home, down Headington Hill, down Lime Walk, bemoaning United not scoring for the second week in succession, then up steps Andy Melville. The people had stayed, said what a wonderful game it had been, the players and everybody else are happy and everybody's now thinking about Tuesday night and of course, the short trip down the A four twenty to Swindon. It was quite a good performance, I it looked like being a goal-less draw at the end, but really it was a better performance I thought, than against Milwall. Very much so Peter I felt as well, and erm really the chances were there weren't they? Martin Foyle and Lee Nogan, dear oh dear, they got in each other 's way when there was an empty net in front of them. Steve Foster was desperately unlucky not to score when he'd bludgeoned his way through, right on the stroke of half time. Jim Magilton I'm sure would score from ten, twelve yards where he plastered against the post any other time. So the chances were there for United rather than Portsmouth erm but you always had that feeling in the last quarter of an hour, isn't that funny, you've talked to Ken Vasey and we've talked to Andy Melville, and I think they both agreed that erm Portsmouth might just come through and snatch three points. Well Nick, you haven't got the benefit of seeing the second division table in front of you. I have, United up to fifteenth, guess who's fourteenth? Swindon. Swindon, two points away, so here we go again, to Swindon on Tuesday, if Oxford win, they move above the old enemy, can they do it? Well Peter, I'd I'd love to say yes, as you know, but erm they've gone to Swindon the last two years since United have been back in the second division, and really they've performed dismally. I think that's the only word for it, and we have seen United away from home at Bristol City and West Bromwich Albion, play so badly. We've got to see the Oxford United that played at Blackburn, that played at Tottenham and that played at Chelsea, if they're going to get anything out of the game. It means so much to the supporters in the Oxford area, it means so much to the club, I think you've really got to be up here for a long time to realise just how much it does mean to everybody in this area. It's a very very important game and if United could do it, well they really could revive a lot of this season. I'll stick my neck out, come on, we're going to say they're going to do it, for the first time for a long long time. And just a little final question Nick — you will be going to the game I presume? I certainly will Peter, and erm looking forward to it. I haven't enjoyed the last two years down there, but erm as I say, let's stick our necks out and say ‘United are going to win down at the County ground’. Let's hope they do, that's Nick Harris being optimistic as always. A reminder that if you are going to the game, of course if is all tickets, so you must get your tickets from Oxford United before setting off on Tuesday evening. And I think the kick off is at seven forty five, that's down at Swindon. Well we were talking about the Jordan motor racing team, and talking about the major sponsorship deal from soft drink manufacturers Seven Up. And Eddy Jordan says his backing, that should cover nineteen ninety two as well. Barring a calamity erm they will retain their option with us to continue on a two year deal, erm they perhaps, and I have to erm be honest about this, I think they are probably in a marketing sense, the most aggressive erm marketing company that I've ever witnessed in terms of the style, the panache, the charisma that they have from within. And they are erm a very go ahead company; they're young and they have this maverick style, which they think we can erm come into quite reasonably well. And erm based on that, erm we would hope that we're able to give them everything that they are looking for, certainly on the results point of view and also in terms of erm the commitment and the on-going situation for the future, that will help them sell more product. It's a fairly basic question — what colour is your car going to be, because that's one thing that people always like to know when watching Grand Prix on Sunday afternoon after the race is over. So what colour will we be looking for, for Eddy Jordan racing. Well, I think there's a bit of Irish blood somewhere in me, even though I am very much an Oxford person now erm obviously the car will be green. And erm that's quite special for me, it's erm my homeland, where I've come from, but I've been twelve years in this vicinity around here, so there is erm if you like, a divided loyalty with the four kids. Half of them are Morton, half of them are English and the other half are Irish, so erm we have our own little family little battles as to who's supporting who in football matches and stuff like that. But erm the car represents if you like, the Seven Up colour is very strong green, and it is an environmental issue too which is quite erm nice at this stage. People are more wary about what is happening into our planet and how we should go about things, and how we should be perceived to be going about things. erm So therefore, we're embarking on a new area if you like, in so far as not just sponsorship, but erm willingness to participate in a friendly environment, and I would hope that we can be part of that. And a word about your two drivers Eddy — you've got one with a lot of experience, one has had a lot of experience of pre-qualifying, but hasn't really done much Grand Prix racing, is that a good balance? I have got erm a crazy mixed up erm if you like, combination; erm one who has a precarious reputation for doing some strange things on the track, Andrea, and it's ironical really because erm when at the end of erm my racing days, which seventy eight, seventy nine with the erm Malborough team, erm Andrea was a young kid coming through. I was retiring and he was coming through at eighteen, nineteen, and erm twelve years later, he's now driving for me in Grand Prix racing. I mean, we've had him here all week, training up in the St Edwards School with Barry and erm we've put him through his paces, he's incredibly strong. And what we're trying to do is to give him this family feeling that everybody behind here, the whole team, every single worker is rooting for him and making sure that he has the best. And we're trying a different approach both mentally and physically, and I believe he can be a new person even after ten years. But we hope so, but I don't I'm not facetious enough to think that I can change a personality in a person, but what we're trying to do is make him feel a loving and a commitment, that we are providing him with the best we can. That's Andrea Chezeris , your other driver of course not a household name Not a household name, Bertrand Gashow is probably he's one of our young management boys erm and I actually believe that he, in time, will be a household name, and quite a famous one. He has great potential to be a world champion, and he will be the kind of driver we would like to retain his services through the next possible two, three years, so it's a longer term situation with him. But in the short term, in other words, the instant burst of speed, I hope anyway, can come from both of them, but I can see it coming from Andrea perhaps first. Well wish you the best of luck Thank you It's Phoenix, you're off on Tuesday. Tuesday yes. erm What finally, relatively what are you looking for? Obviously we are particularly keen to finish, we want to pre-qualify, qualify for the race and finish the race, that is important. So as we get a platform on a level of erm if you like, performance, where we are compared to the Ferraris, the McClarens etc., and any other ones down the field. erm We feel we can do well, I'd be ecstatic if we could come away with a world championship point, I think we possibly can if we're a bit lucky. But it's too early to get carried away and we must and we always have had our feet on the ground and erm we will do that. We just hope in terms of you know, the latest and the newest Oxfordshire team, that we can do something to bring home to the people here. And good luck to them, that's the Eddy Jordan racing team. Watch out for them in Formula One this season, they are the new boys, but everybody's a little bit windy about them. And if you didn't hear earlier, their cars are green and quite easy to spot. Well I set you some horse racing questions just now for this wonderful prize ‘Racehorses of nineteen ninety’. We've got the winner on the phone now, Nick Roach from Headington. Nick, let's put to you the three questions; when Quest for Fame won the Derby and Sanglemore won the French Derby, it provided a first season trainer with a rare double — who was that trainer? That was Roger Charlton. And have I pronounced it right, was it Sanglemore? Sanglemore is how I think they pronounce it. Sanglemore, right, so Roger Charlton the trainer. Who rode both horses to victory? That was Pat Edery. Yes, and who owns both horses? That's Prince Khaled Abdullah. Khaled Abdullah, well you're first in, quickest off the mark, so you win yourself ‘Racehorses of nineteen ninety’. Paul Stone from Kidlington, Mick Casey from Abingdon and Andrew Norton from Thame and Ivan Lomas from Carterton, all of them win the runners up prizes, which is Time Form's ‘Horses to Follow’. Do you know the prize that you're winning? Yes I do erm Peter, it's a smashing book erm very smart indeed and erm it's it'll be a really nice thing to have, it'll be very useful this season for checking up some of the two year olds who are now three year olds, coming up in the next few months. Have you ever had one before? erm Yes, I've got a couple of copies erm from years gone by. erm As I said, they're smashing, beautifully bound and beautiful presentation. Really Time Form are an excellent organisation, they know what they're talking about, you know, you can trust what they say. They don't give you any tips for nineteen ninety one though do they — are you a racehorse backer and punter? Yes I am, yes I am, well they do they are quite bullish sometimes about some of the two year olds, there in the essays, in the longer essays about some of the better erm fancied horses from last year. They will point you in the right direction, they were quite bullish last year about Salsevills chances in the book when it was published, before she went on to win the erm thousand guineas. So, erm you know, yes I mean, it's a very useful book and it's a very interesting read as well. Right Nick, well congratulations, thanks for entering the competition and watch out for your post in about a week, ten days time. Thanks very much indeed, bye bye. Bye bye, that's Nick Roach from Headington. And just back to football, the South Midland premier division; Thame United retain their lead at the top of the table with a narrow but in the end, comfortable victory at Langford this afternoon. They led at the interval by one goal to nil, that was thanks to an Andy Thomas goal, following a cross from Neil Waters. Thame increased their lead immediately after the interval, Thomas scoring again after the Langford keeper had dropped the ball. Langford pulled a goal back on sixty eight minutes, but Thame held out for another victory and they still top the South Midland League. Right, it's ten minutes to six, time for a look at all the local football results, beginning with league division two; Oxford United one, Portsmouth nil; the Beezer Homes League southern division; Witney one, Erith and Belvedere nil; the Vauxhall League division two south; Harefield two, Abingdon Town two, the South Midland League premier division; Langford one, Thame two; the O'Brian Trophy; Tring Athletic three, Oxford City one; the Combination League; Portsmouth Reserves four, Oxford United Reserves two; the South-east Counties League; Oxford United one, Swindon nil; the Hellenic League premier cup second round; Banbury one, Carterton two; Bicester two, Milton nil; Didcot one, Almondsbury Pixons nil; Wantage nil, Bishops Cleve one; the premier division; Hounslow three, Headington Amateurs one; Morton nil, Kidbury Rangers three; Pegasus Juniors nil, Fairford Town two; Rayners Lane one, Shortwood two; Swindon Athletic one, Abingdon United nil; division one cup; Sinderford Town two, Viking Sports three; Cirencester Town three, Northleigh nil; Supmarine three, Cheltenham Saracens two; Wallingford Town three, Wootton Bassett one; division one; Chipping Norton nil, Kidlington four; Cirencester United one, Easington Sports five; Clanfield six, Lambourn Sports one; the Reserve League Cup; Kintbury Rangers one, Wantage Town two; the Reserve division east; Abingdon United one, Rayners Lane nil; Kidlington three, Bicester one; Milton eight, Easington Sports four; Viking Sports nil, Didcot five; the Reserve division west; Almondsbury Pixons four, Highworth one; Carterton one, Supmarine one; Fairford two, Cirencester Town three; and the Oxfordshire Intermediate Cup third round; Northleigh Reserves nil, Headington Amateurs Reserves one. The Oxfordshire Senior Leagues; the Ben Turner Cup second round replay; Watlington one, Oxford University Press four; the Clarendon Cup semi-final; Malborough Reserves nil, Garsington Reserves one; the Oxfordshire Charity Cup semi-final; Ardley United nil, Quarry Nomads two; the premier division; A P Sports nil, Eynsham three; Blackbird Leys nil, Old Woodstock three; Garsington four, Malborough one; Kennington United two, Oakley United one; Worcester College Old Boys nil, Woodstock Town nil; Yarnton six, Bletchingdon two; division one; A F C Cowley three, Yarnton Reserves one; Charlbury Town against Kennington Reserves postponed; John Radcliffe two, Bicester Civil Service nil; Long Crendon four, Charlton United nil; Old Woodstock Reserves three, Launton Sports five; Quarry Nomads Reserves nil, Oxford Stadium one; Silesians one, Pressed Steel Fisher three; Woodstock Town Reserves one, Marston Saints nine; division two; Bletchingdon Reserves four, Marston Saints Reserves one; Charlton United Reserves one, Watlington Reserves three; Eynsham Reserves one, Charlbury Town Reserves nil; Launton Sports Reserves one, Long Crendon Reserves one; Oakley United Reserves two, A P Sports Reserves nil; Oxford Stadium Reserves two, Ardley United Reserves three; the Oxford City Football Association, the Cooling Cup replay; Northway four, County Dairies two; North Oxford two, Marston one; in the league; Tetsworth four, Port Mahon four; Wheatley six, North Oxford Reserves two; and Beckley five, Ampney Cottage two. The Lord Jersey League, Derek Allen Cup first round; K A United nil, Heyford Athletic one; Arncott one, Stanton St John nil; Mid-Oxon Cup; Red Lion Marauders two, Marsh Gibbon one; Heath one, Bardwell four; division one; Heyford United one; Soldern two; the Eric Morris Cup first round replay; Kirtlington five, Middle Barton one; the Arthur Crawford Cup; Wootton one, Piddington two; Marsh Gibbon Reserves nil, K A United Reserves three; division two; Bardwell Reserves two, Fritwell fifteen; Akers Athletic ten, Marauders Reserves nil; the Supplementary Cup; Fritwell Reserves three, Wootton Reserves nil; Steeple Aston two, Weston three; division three; Merton three, Heyford United Reserves three; the Mann Cup preliminary round replay; Heyford Athletic Reserves nil, Wise Alderman two. The Witney and District F A Senior Challenge Cup third round; Barton Rangers one, Chadlington one; Eynstone five, Milton four; West Witney three, Ducklington nil; Carterton Eagles nil, Brize Norton six; the Junior Challenge Cup second round; Alvscott Reserves five, Stonesfield Reserves three; third round; Northleigh A nil, Filkins nil; Cassington eight, Burford three; the Supplementary Cup third round; Charlbury A nil, Allendale two; West Witney A one, Witney Royals three; on to the league, the premier division; Hanborough three, Hayley six; division one; Carterton A two, Alvscott three; Chadlington Reserves nil, Spartan Reserves seven; Minster Lovell nil, West Witney Reserves two; Tackley four, F C Mills two; division two; Addlestrop one, Swinbrook two; Bladon nil, F C Mills Reserves four; North Kidlington United one, Eynstone Reserves four; division three; Brize Norton Reserves five, Newland one; Ducklington Reserves nil, Aston three; Hayley Reserves nil, Carterton B nil; division four; Burford Reserves one, Minster Lovell Reserves one; F C Mills A five, Chipping Norton United four; and in division five; Askett United eight, Cassington Reserves nil; Bampton Reserves one, Chipping Norton Reserves two. The Banbury and District Football League, Coronation Cup second round; Sinclair United four, Shipston Excelsior nil; the Allen Hughes Trophy second round; Barford United one, Bishops Hitchington four; the Angel Shield second round; Wroxham Sports Reserves one, Bodicote Sports Reserves four; the Basil Taylor Cup first round; Broughton North Newington three, Brayles United two; Hornton six, Oasthouse nil; in the league premier division; Adderbury three, Middleton Cheney four; Bodicote Sports against Hook Norton postponed; Milcombe two, Wroxham Sports one; Ruscote Sports two, Kings Sutton nil; division one; Fenny Compton nil, Comrades one; Hook Norton Reserves two, Sinclair United Reserves nil; Middleton Cheney Reserves one, Bloxham Athletic three; Shipston Excelsior Reserves five, Banbury Town one; division two; Cropredy six, Bloxham Athletic Reserves nil; Deddington Town nil, Ruscote Sports Reserves six; the Supplementary Benevolent Cup; Bishops Hitchington Reserves two, Cropredy Reserves one; Middleton Cheney A three, Fenny Compton Reserves six; Wardington four, Milcombe Reserves nil; Charlton twelve, Brayles United Reserves one; and Chipping Warden two, Hornton Reserves three. The local results in the Chiltonian Football League premier division; Chinnor one, Wraysbury Coopers three; Henley Town two, Finchampstead one; division one; Broomwade two, Brill nil; Ibis three, Stokenchurch four; reserve division one; Finchampstead five, Chinnor nil; Stokenchurch one, Penn and Tylers three; and reserve division two; Brill United two, Henley Town six. Now time to have a look at the greyhounds tonight at the Oxford Stadium, with his tips, here's Gary Badon. Tonight we hold a twelve race meeting starting at seven thirty pm. Tonight's first race provides the Nap, this is trap six,Tyrell . After a couple of smart wins, he looks like a good bet here, and the biggest danger is only trap two, West Mead Ricky. My second tip tonight is Quiet Song in race four, Quiet Song runs from trap five and the threat lies from Selwood Neil in trap two. Tip three tonight is Abbey View Margo in race seven, trap two; well drawn, she can hold off the threats of trap one, Vera May. The final selection is race eleven, trap one, Spot the Fox; Spot the Fox is one of the closest railers at Oxford, and the main danger is trap two, Image of Man. So there we are, that's the woofers tonight at the Oxford Stadium, and that's it from Talking Sport this Saturday. We'll all be back next week, same time, same place — hope you'll join us. Coming up next here on Radio Oxford is the six o'clock news, but we'll leave you with the best moment this afternoon here on Radio Oxford. Twelve yards outside the Portsmouth penalty area, left side to be taken by number eleven Paul Simpson, surely their last chance in this game. Simpson raises his hands in the air, United have got Andy Melville and Steve Foster at the far post. Simpson still delays taking the kick, now it comes in, he knocks it into the far post, looking for Paul. Paul heads it back over the top — and they've scored, Oxford United have scored, it's Andy Melville that has put the ball into the net, into injury time. The cross came in, Martin Foyle headed it back across the face of the goal and it's Andy Melville that has surely clinched three vital points for Oxford United. Into injury time; Oxford United one, Portsmouth nil. Yes, good evening, welcome to Talking Sport. Tonight's headlines; Oxford United come back in remarkable fashion from Molyneux, trailing by three goals to nil after twenty four minutes and with four minutes remaining to go, United scored twice to equalise. There are wins for Witney Town, Abingdon Town, Cuddesdon, Abingdon United, Banbury United, Didcot and Oxford City draw. In rugby, there are wins for Banbury, Bicester and Oxford Marathons draw. Later in the programme we'll be having a report from Molyneux looking at all the local games in detail. We'll be talking with Ray Tapper and Nigel Dudding about today's England France game at Twickenham, and also tomorrow, the final in the Oxfordshire Senior Cup between Henley and Oxford, the match to be played on the Iffley Road ground. We'll be previewing the new speedway season, there's a look at the greyhound news and a round up of all the local leagues, so stay with us for the next hour. Let's begin with the local results: League division two; Wolves three, Oxford United three; Beezer Homes League; Witney Town five, Bury Town one; the Vauxhall League; Abingdon Town two, Egham one; South Midlands League, the O'Brien Trophy quarter final; Thame United two, Shillington one; division one; Oxford City three, Cranfield United three; South-east Counties League; Southampton four, Oxford United four; the Oxon Senior Cup, quarter final; Carterton three, Henley two; the Hellenic League, premier division; Abingdon United three, Hounslow nil; Banbury United three, Fairford two; Bicester Town two, Kintbury one; Bishops Cleve three, Headington Amateurs three; Didcot Town three, Almondsbury four; Morton nil, Shortwood three; Milton two, Rayners Lane nil. And now with the national classified results, here's Jerome Sale. Belgraves League division one; Aston Villa three, Tottenham Hotspur two; Crystal Palace two, Derby County one; Liverpool two, Sunderland one; Luton Town nil, Norwich City one; Manchester City one, Wimbledon one; Nottingham Forest one, Manchester United one; Queens Park Rangers one, Coventry City nil; Sheffield United one, Chelsea nil; Southampton three, Everton four; division two; Barnsley one, Charlton Athletic one; Brighton and Hove Albion one, Blackburn Rovers nil; Bristol Rovers one, Notts County one; Leicester City four, Middlesbrough three; Milwall one, Swindon Town nil; Newcastle United nil, Bristol City nil; Oldham Athletic two, West Bromwich Albion one; Plymouth Argyll one, Portsmouth one; Port Vale nil, Hull City nil; Watford one, Ipswich Town one; West Ham United one, Sheffield Wednesday three; Wolverhampton Wanderers three, Oxford United three; division three; Bolton Wanderers two, Wigan Athletic one; Bradford City four, Leyton Orient nil; Cambridge United one, Exeter City nil; Crewe Alexandra two, Bury two; Fulham one, Bournemouth one; Grimsby Town two, Brentford nil; Huddersfield Town one, Chester City one; Preston Northend two, Birmingham nil; Reading two, Rotherham United nil; Shrewsbury Town two, Stoke City nil; division four; Burnley two, Carlisle United one; Cardiff City one, Scunthorpe United nil; Chesterfield two, Wrexham one; Darlington one, Doncaster Rovers one; Gillingham nil, York City nil; Hartlepool United one, Blackpool two; Lincoln City two, Maidstone United one; Scarborough two, Aldershot nil; Stockport County four, Hereford United two; Walsall nil, Rochdale one; in the F A Trophy fourth round; Altringham five, Horwich nil; Colchester United two, Witton Albion nil; Kidderminster three, Emley nil; Northwich Victoria two, Wycombe Wanderers three; in the H F S Loans League, premier division; Chorley five, Gainsborough three; Fleetwood four, Hyde one; Mossley two, Goole nil; Shepshed nil, Marine two; South Liverpool nil, Leek one; Staleybridge three, Bangor one; the Beezer Homes League, premier division; Atherston one, Cambridge United one, I'm sorry, Cambridge City one; Moor Green one, Weymouth two; Poole one, Worcester two; Rushton four, Hales Owen three; the Waterlooville versus Chelmsford result is a late kick off; the Vauxhall League, premier division; Basingstoke nil, St Albans four; Bishops Stortford two, Woking nil; Bognor Regis two, Dagenham nil; Kingstonian two, Harrow nil; Leyton Wingate one, Wokingham four; Marlow one, Greys Athletic nil; in the Tennants Scottish Cup quarter finals; Motherwell nil, Morton nil; St Johnston five, Ayr United two; in the Scottish League, premier division; Dunfermline one, Hibernian one; division one; Aidrie two, Kilmarnock nil; Clydebank one, Breckin City nil; Dundee one, Forfar nil; Falkirk three, Hamilton nil; Partick two, Meadowbank four; Wraith Rovers one, Clyde nil; division two; Albion nil, Stenhouse Muir nil; Alloa two, Dunbarton one; Arbroath nil, East Stirling one; Bury two, Queens Park one; Cowden Beath two, Stranraer nil; East Fife two, Montrose two; and finally, Queen of the South nil, Stirling Albion nil. Jerome Sale with the classified national results, and some local rugby results from this afternoon in the Oxford Merit table; Littlemore eighteen, Abingdon sixteen; Club matches; Banbury sixteen, Newbold six; Dunstabians thirteen, Oxford Marathons thirteen, and Bicester twenty five, Long Buckby three. So, Oxford United, unbeaten since February the twenty third, keep their recent excellent run going. They drew three three away to Wolves after trailing by three goals to one with just four minutes remaining, the full story of this exciting game — Nick Harris. Four minutes before the end of this game, Oxford United's chances of returning home from Molyneux with any points looked distinctly bleak. They trailed by three goals to one, they'd missed a number of chances in the second period, and after Steve Bull had put Wolves three nil up with a hat trick in the opening twenty four minutes. But then United suddenly fought back; in the eighty sixth minutes, a great scramble in the Wolves goalmouth and Mark Stein, the substitute who had replaced Martin Foyle, shot home from close range. Suddenly Wolves panicked, a minute later, Paul Simpson ran clear, he had done on two previous occasions, and missed good chances. This time he didn't miss, he shot past Stowell and United were on level terms, amazingly, they almost snatched the lead a minute later when a brilliant save by Stowell denied Simpson once again. And from the resulting corner, Mark Stein got his head to the ball, it flashed across the face of the Wolves goal, bounced off the crossbar and the chance had gone. Really, I don't think anybody in the crowd of just over eleven thousand thought United were going to pull anything out of that game. They conceded three goals to an England striker, Steve Bull in that opening twenty four minutes. In the tenth minute, Bull rose above Steve Foster and headed Paul Crook's long cross into the far corner of the net. Five minutes later, United goalkeeper, Ken Vasey was just fought when he missed a long cross from the left, and Bull was there heading into the empty net. United fighting back with surprising spirit, but in the twenty fourth minute, really they thought their chances had gone, and there was a mistake by United skipper, Steve Foster. He laid the ball back to Vasey, it was far too short, Ballwood latched on to it like a greyhound, drew Vasey, put the ball into the opposite corner and everybody all around was celebrating. United building some good moves, but lacking any real penetration in the box; the only chance of the half coming to Paul Simpson when he intercepted a square pass on the edge of the penalty area, but shot at goal keeper, Mike Stowell. United started the second half with a little bit more spirit, a Les Phillips header was tipped over the bar by Stowell. Phillips a minute later, chipped forward, was just a little bit too far in front of Les Robinson as he broke clear. Back came Wolves, Mickey Lewis blocked Mark Burk, shot goalbound shot on the line, but then United scored. In the fifty first minute, a delightful move with Magilton setting up a great chance for Paul Simpson, but Stowell blocked his effort. But United weren't to be denied, Mike Ford's shot was deflected across the face of the goal and there was Andy Melville to poke the ball into the corner of the net, United to continue to come forward, but continued to waste chances that came their way. The fifty fourth minute, Les Phillips' thirty yard shot just went over the crossbar, Wolves fought back and Andy Melville headed Paul Cook's free kick off the line with Vasey beaten. Mark Stein then replaced Martin Foyle and United had two good chances; in seventieth minute, a great move involving Magilton and Simpson, set up Durning. He cut inside but then shot straight at the goal keeper, and in the seventy second minute, Stein's low shot was pushed for a corner by Stowell. Magilton was then booked for a foul on Much but with time running out, United continued to press forward. The eighty fifth minute, Paul Simpson was clean through after good work by Stein, but his shot was blocked by Stowell. Magilton's header was headed of the line with the goal keeper beaten, a great scramble then ensued in the Wolves' goalmouth and Stein shot home from close range. Surely United couldn't do it, and in the eighty seventh minute, Paul Simpson ran clear and he shot home from close range. And then we saw that brilliant save by Stowell and the crossbar denying United a famous victory. But I'm sure anyone of the United players and the fans that have made the trip up from Oxford this afternoon, would have settled for a one point at half time. A great fight back for United, great disappointment all around me from the Wolves fans, because that final scoreline at Molyneux reads Wolverhampton Wanderers three, Oxford United three. Nick Harris our reporter at Molyneux; remarkable scoreline for United. Just to repeat, with four minutes remaining, United were trailing by three goals to one, the final score; Wolves three, United three. And that's the fourth match in which United have finished three three this season. Following that erm scoreline, United stay in fourteenth place, they now have forty two points from thirty five games, just one above them is Charlton, they're on forty two points. Below United, Port Vale, they have forty one, so still very very tight. United's next game is away to Newcastle United on Wednesday, next Saturday they're back at the Manor, where Barnsley are the visitors. We hope to rejoin Nick Harris in a few minutes, we hope he's able to speak with manager, Brian Horton or perhaps one or two of the players. But let's erm come nearer home, Abingdon Town, they were playing in an Hellenic in a Vauxhall League match this afternoon. They beat Egham by two goals to one, reporting on this match, Tony Worgan. Abingdon Town stormed to an emphatic two one victory in a sparkling match with promotion rivals, Egham Town at the Culham Road this afternoon. Despite the wet and slippery conditions, both sides served up a feast of football and Abingdon were good value for the three points. Abingdon got off to the best possible start when the live wire, Liam Herbert latched on to a ball in the penalty area, only to be brought down by Egham keeper, Paul Allis in the second minute. Keith Appleton converted the resulting penalty. Abingdon's joy was short-lived however, and Egham equalised three minutes later. Abingdon failed to clear a corner properly and Egham's skipper, Chris Wheatley shot the ball home. A header from Abingdon's David Cook rebounded off the bar after fourteen minutes straight into the path of Paul Bradbury who headed wide of an open goal. The deciding goal of the game came after thirty two minutes when a Calvin Alexis cross was headed home by David Cook. Immediately after the goal, Egham counter-attacked and Abingdon was saved by Darren Hickey who cleared the ball off the line. Egham looked dangerous going forward but shaky at the back and didn't create too many real clear cut chances. The second half was played at just as frantic pace as the first with both sides looking dangerous on the attack, but Abingdon looking more solid in defence. Both David Cook and Roger Charles had shots cleared off the line in quick succession after sixty six minutes, and after seventy four minutes, David Cook headed against the crossbar. Egham threw men forward in the dying minutes in the search for an equaliser, and in the last minute, Bobby Roper caused Abingdon's hearts to flutter when he shot narrowly wide. Abingdon held on for a deserved victory however, in one of the best games this reporter has seen this season. Final score then; Abingdon Town two, Egham one. A fine game and also a very vital result for Abingdon Town. I think, on the line we have erm the Abingdon boss, Trevor Butler, is that right? Yes, good evening. Yes, good evening to you Trevor. A good result and a very necessary one because I think that helps you to pull away slightly at the top of the table; before this match, Egham were in third place. That's correct, it's erm the winter day just given us that little bit more of a cushion, and so obviously we're delighted to get the result. They were nine points behind you so you've now got a twelve point gap. Maidenhead in between, they were just two points behind Trevor, is that right? Yes, that's right, and they've won again today. They beat Malvern Vale who were another erm of the promotion contenders, three nil today, so Maidenhead and ourselves are in the same relationship as we were before the game. So Maidenhead are still pushing hard aren't they? That's very true yes. And I believe you're playing Maidenhead before long Trevor? Yes, we've got Maidenhead to come down here, a home game in a few weeks time, so obviously that will be quite an interesting game. Are things developing on the promotion front Trevor, as regard the possibility of going up? Well, at this stage of the season I've said in the past that there's lots of football to be played, and there still is. But now we're in the top erm position, we've been in the top position for a few weeks now, it obviously erm makes you think that whether it's a possibility. And I think we're in the rounds now thinking we've got the chance of going up, but it's not going to be easy and there's lots of football to be played yet. The strain isn't beginning to tell on your players? I hope not, no I don't think so, erm I think today erm if anybody was here today, they performed terrific today and one of our best performances of the season. And erm if there was any strain I didn't see it. Trevor, thanks very much for joining us on the programme. Thank you. Just to repeat that scoreline in the Vauxhall League, division two south; Abingdon Town two, Egham one; and Abingdon doing very well in that League, looking good for promotion. I believe we can go to an Hellenic League match now; Milton against Rayners Lane, the scoreline in that match; Milton two, Rayners Lane nil, our reporter, David Taylor. Yes, and an astute decision by Milton's manager, Keith Stocks, saw substitute Brian Marlan brought on in the sixty eighth minute and two minutes later he was all smiles as he headed home Nigel Mott's cross to break the deadlock. Nigel Mott made sure of the three points two minutes from time, and he could see Milton going back to the top of the table this evening. The first half was played in a torrential downpour and both teams did well to keep their feet on a pitch which rapidly became rain sodden and slippery. Despite Rayners Lane's lowly position, they were not afraid to come forward in the opening fifteen minutes, but could find no way past a resolute Milton defence. In the twentieth minute Milton made a rare forage forward and Wayne Morton headed Neil Allen's free kick just wide of the post. One minute later, as Milton were awarded a free kick just outside Lane's penalty area, Nigel Mott of Milton was involved in a silly disagreement with the Rayners Lane keeper, Neil Keller, but the situation was well diffused by the referee. Both teams plugged on but neither could find any rhythm to the game in the atrocious conditions. Tommy Dempsey went close to the visitors just four minutes before half time, but both teams welcomed the referee's whistle to end the first half. Just as the second half got underway, Milton's goal keeper, Paul Whittington received a leg injury and there was some anxious faces before he continued after a lengthy stoppage. Rayners Lane continued to press forward and looked the most likely to score as their skipper, Tommy Verney shot wide from fifteen yards after fifty two minutes. But at last Milton began to press forward and Neil Allen went close in it as Ian Beechey played a goal a ball through from deep. And then that substitution in the seventieth minute, Robby Munn played the ball through to Nigel Mott, he chipped the ball across the face of the goal and there was Brian Marlan to head home from close range. Now it is only his second touch of the ball, two minutes later it could have been two nil; as Ian Beechey found Nigel Mott in space, he rounded the Rayner's keeper, but Hanger Hines cleared it off the line. With ten minutes to go, Paul Whittington did well to tip the ball over the Milton bar on two occasions as Lane pressed for the equaliser. But time was running out and with just two minutes remaining, Nigel Mott secured the points as he headed home Paul Biddle's cross to make it two nil. Mention must be made of the referee today who had an excellent game, the final score here at the erm High Street Recreation ground; Milton two, Rayners Lane nil. Dave, the scoreline again; Milton two, Rayners Lane nil. We can go to another Hellenic League match; Abingdon United against Hounslow, the scoreline in this one; Abingdon United three, Hounslow nil, reporting for us, Ray Barlow. In a game dominated by the conditions, with the ball skidding off a greasy surface, United won convincingly by three goals to nil, despite playing with ten men for seventy eight minutes of the game. This was due to the sending off of Graham Lambourn for foul and abusive language to an opponent. This appeared to everyone on the ground to be a very harsh decision, as Lambourn had been to the ground twice in less than five minutes, the second occasion with a fine hard tackle that left him limping badly. This decision appeared to inspire United who took the lead in the twenty third minute through Donny Roumain after good work by Ray Green on the left. The game was being played at furious pace and it was Richardson who was put to the test when he dived to turn round a long drive from Darlington in the thirty eighth minute. The furious pace continued in the second half with play sweeping from end to end without either keeper being tested. But in the fifty eighth minute, Donny Roumain dispossessed the Hounslow keeper wide out on the edge of the penalty area. He squared the ball into the centre where Kenny completely mis-kicked and he was relieved when the ball wobbled slowly into the empty net to put United two goals up. Hounslow then began to play like a team that were third in the table, forcing United's mid-field backwards, only to come against Shepherd and Wilson in the centre of United's defence, neither of whom put a foot wrong all afternoon. The nearest Hounslow came to scoring was not until the eightieth minute when Keith Hoad headed narrowly wide from a Mark Francis cross. But Hounslow's fate was sealed in the eighty eighth minute when Darren Rogers scored from twelve yards after Wayne Green had left his marker for dead, sweeping by him for twenty yards. The final score; Abingdon United three, Hounslow nil. Abingdon United three, Hounslow nil. I think we go to Bicester now, in the Hellenic League, Bicester Town beat Kintbury by two goals to one. I think can we join Charlie Rawlings? No we can't join Charlie, what about Witney Town in the Beezer Homes League; Witney Town beat Bury Town by five goals to one. In fact I'm told we go to Didcot; Didcot Town again in the Hellenic League; Didcot Town three, Almondsbury four, reporting on this game, Ken Coles. The visitors opened strongly and after ninety seconds, forced a corner from which centre back, Mike Titcomb headed wide. It was six minutes before Didcot attacked the visitors goal as Mark O'Hara shot into a crowded goalmouth. Then Tony Price had visiting goalkeeper making the first save of the game. In the other goal, Andy Tucker made his first save collecting from Colin Head after twelve minutes. After fourteen minutes, Walston Ricketts looked to have set up Wayne Holden, only for the goalkeeper to superbly have the ball spin off him for a corner. Didcot took the lead in the twenty fifth minute when a fine ball by Holden sent Trevor Mason through, and as the keeper came up to try and narrow the angle, Mason squeezed it through his legs. Immediately the visitors retaliated and Andy Tucker did very well to cross Andy Stocker's overhead kick. Almondsbury were back on level terms two minutes after the break when Storey was allowed to centre, and although Tony Price cleared off the line, it was followed up by another player to hammer in. After the visiting goal keeper had kept Holden away, Almondsbury got two in a minute through Sharon and Patterson. The goals continued as Holden stroked home a in the seventy third minute, but a dreadful back pass by gave Bartley an open goal to make it four two. Within a minute of coming on, substitute Tony O'Donovan put Didcot right back in to the game and then Paul Spittle was so unlucky not to level the scores as his shot hit the post. Although Didcot finished on a high, they in the end, had to give the visitors best in this seven-goal thriller, and will be cursing their luck for the way they made so many errors. The final score was Didcot Town three, Almondsbury Pixons four. And our reporter Ken Coles, well staying in the Hellenic League, Bicester Town beat Kintbury by two goals to one, reporting on this match, Charlie Rawlings. This was a very exciting match; in the first half, all the goals came. Edwards scored for Bicester after three minutes, and again he was in action from a Walton pass, the keeper having to save full length. Barry Cooper receiving from a log by Mark Butler went round the defender and the keeper to score the second goal after the twelfth minute. The visitors were unlucky not to score when Mark Butler headed off the line from a corner in the nineteenth minute, and Ken Mulligan shot over the bar for the visitors, being put away by Hurst. And from a corner the visitor's Leach saved full length, and Mark West should have scored when he lobbed it back, but Peak headed behind for a corner, this was all very very hectic indeed. And just before half time, the erm visitors got their goal erm when Steven scored from another corner, and the score at half time was two one. With the ground getting in terrible condition in the second half, both sides had plenty of chances to score, but the ball either stuck in the mud or the keeper saved. Leach, on one occasion had to go full length to save, and also the keeper at the other end too was kept very busy. erm Right on the last few minutes with five minutes to go erm the erm Steven was again through and Leach had to go full length to save. erm Bicester ran out winners in the end by two one, but what a game, particularly in the second half which was very exciting and very hectic with the visitors trying hard to get that equaliser; Bicester Town two, Kintbury Rangers one. Reporting on that match, Charlie Rawlings, and I believe we can talk with the Bicester Town boss, Alan Thorn, good evening Alan. Hello. Yes, good evening to you, quite a match at Bicester this afternoon. Very good, excellent match. Sort of match which erm makes the heart beat a little faster, especially if you're manager is it Well it does, yes, it was very exciting, end to end stuff erm all the way through I think, mainly due to the conditions. Like Charlie said ‘it's a mud bath out here’, and erm there wasn't that much controlled football. But erm a lot of good you know, attacking play. How do you feel about the way things are going over at Bicester these days Alan? Very good, very good; that's our erm tenth game in the league undefeated, and things are really looking up, we've got a good young side here, very good Quite a run. Yes, very good, we're climbing up the league now, week by week. And it must be difficult somewhat for you because since you do get a good side together, then perhaps other clubs come along poaching your players. Well they do, several of our players have erm had seven day notices put on them, but fortunately, only one has left, so erm I think that speaks erm quite a lot for the erm players and for myself and the job we're doing. Does this mean you're always relying upon the youngsters who are coming through? No no, we've got some good experienced players here hello? Hello Alan — hello? Hello, sorry about all that noise Yes, that's alright . Yes, we've got some good experienced players here and we're not really just relying on the youngsters, but the youngsters who have come through this year have done an excellent job. Okay Alan, well thanks very much for joining us on the programme this afternoon Thank you, thank you. And the final score again; Bicester Town two, Kintbury one. We can go to West Oxfordshire now because Witney Town beat Bury Town by five goals to one in a Beezer Homes League match over at Marriotts Close, and we can talk with the Witney boss, Malcolm Mackintosh, good evening Malcolm. Hello. Good win for Town this afternoon? Yes, very good, we were pleased with our performance today. That was your — was it fifth successive win? That's right, yes. So you really you are pulling away from the dangers there now aren't you? Yes, erm I think that puts us about half way now. You went just after Christmas you went through a very very bad patch didn't you? erm Yes, we lost eight games on the trot erm finally winning here against Gosport. But things have turned round slightly in the last few weeks and erm the players have got themselves together and erm we've managed to string a few results together. To what do you attribute the improved form Malcolm? erm Good management . I thought you might say that, you've also lost Steve Jenkins up front haven't you? That's right, he's gone to near neighbours, Buckingham erm we wish him all the best there, he's done a fine job for us over two years. But erm the lads have got together and Clarkie scored erm four goals today so, we haven't missed him so much so far. So you must feel very encouraged the way things are going at present? Yes, I've just heard Alan say that they've got a young side, and we're similar over here, we're playing in a good standard of football. And the young lads are listening and learning erm so hopefully, in a couple of years we'll have a good side over here. Malcolm, I know it's not necessarily your responsibility, but any latest news on a new ground for Witney Town? erm We haven't heard erm anything since erm the erm ground was cancelled last time. erm That'll be more down to the chairman than myself, he'll put you more in line with that. Well that's rather unsettling for the whole club isn't it? It is really because at one time in the season everything was going through, and the players were on a high erm and then we find out that the game erm the place has been cancelled and the players go on a low. erm But they've got themselves together again and we seem to be picking up. Malcolm thanks very much for joining us. Okay, pleasure. Certainly a good win for Witney Town; Witney Town five, Bury Town one in the Beezer Homes League. Now for a round up of the division one matches played this afternoon, and the details of the England France Rugby Union International, here's Jerome Sale. And we start with rugby. There were nervous moments in the grand slam match for England as with two minutes left, they allowed France to pull within two points when Camberaberaux converted a try. But the kicking of Simon Hodgkinson brought England their first grand slam since nineteen eighty. He kicked four penalties and converted Rory Underwood's try. The French managed three tries in all, but still had to settle for second place in the five nations championship; the final score at Twickenham; twenty one, nineteen. In the other match, Scotland beat Ireland by twenty eight points to twenty five at Murrayfield. In football, there was an early shock for Liverpool at Anfield as the champions tried to get back to the top of the table with Arsenal playing Leeds United at Highbury tomorrow. Gordon Armstrong put lowly Sunderland a goal up with a header in the nineteenth minute, but ten minutes later, an Ian Rush header put Liverpool level; his twenty first goal of the season. An own goal from Sunderland's Gary Owers, left the Reds two one up at the interval, that's how it stayed and Liverpool are now three points clear at the top, but they have an inferior goal difference to Arsenal. Tottenham without Paul Gascoigne were torn apart at Villa Park as the home side went three nil up inside forty six minutes. Aston Villa's own mid-field dynamo, David Platt, was in similar mood to Steve Bull as he too bagged an early hat-trick. Vinny Samways pulled one back for Spurs in the sixty second minute, Paul Allen's goal on eighty three minutes wasn't enough to rescue a point. Manchester United took the lead at the City ground through Clayton Blackmore in the thirty seventh minute, but Nottingham Forest levelled a minute later through Terry Wilson, and that left Cloughie's men at one one. Derby County's grief at the foot of the first division continues as they went down two one at Crystal Palace. Derby held firm until the seventy fifth minute when Andy Grey's penalty gave Palace the lead. Ian Wright extended that lead on eighty one minutes, but Derby did get back into things with an effort from Gary Micklewhite. It wasn't enough though, and the two one defeat leaves Derby six points adrift at the bottom, Palace stay third. There was an exciting match at the Dell with Everton winning by the odd goal in seven against Southampton. Everton's scorers were Dave Watson, Mike Milligan, Tony Carthy and Mike Newell. Newell had put through his own goal to put Southampton level at two one in the first half. Neil Ruddock and Alan Shearer were the other Saint scorers. Sheffield United continue their march up the first division and Ian Bryce in goal five minutes before time was good enough to beat Chelsea. That was the Blade's seventh straight league win. Luton Town is slipping down the table however; they lost at Coventry in mid-week and went down one nil at home to Norwich this afternoon, Sherwood on target for the Canaries. Queen's Park Rangers beat Coventry one nil, thanks to a Les Ferdinand goal. Manchester City drew one one at home to Wimbledon. In division two, second place West Ham were in trouble again; third place Sheffield Wednesday inflicted the Hammers second defeat in four days; a three one victory for Wednesday with two goals for Paul Williams and one for David Hurst. Jimmy Quinn scored for West Ham. Oldham the leaders went ahead on twenty one minutes through veteran Roger Palmer, but Tony Ford pulled a goal back for West Bromwich Albion with half time approaching. Oldham however stay top, they scored a late winner. And finally at Filbert Street, Leicester were also on the comeback trail, they came from two nil down at home to Middlesbrough to eventually win four three. Jerome Sale with a round up of this afternoon's headlines. And just to mention still in football; the first semi-final of the Oxfordshire Junior Shield takes place on Wednesday; Sinclair United are playing West Witney on the Witney Town ground, kick off, seven fifteen. That's on Wednesday, Sinclair United playing West Witney on the Witney Town ground, seven fifteen kick off, the semi-final of the Oxfordshire Junior Shield. Well, the speedway season is upon us; tapes go up at the Oxford Stadium on Friday. There's been great activity in the closed season, but the Oxford team, the Cheetahs are hungry to reproduce the form of the end of last season straight away, and win the national league. Talking with Adam Hollingworth is the Cheetah's co-promoter, Bernard Crapper. Welcome to the programme Bernard. There have been a lot of personnel changes at Oxford Cheetahs in the closed season. I understand there's only three people who are from the same team as last year. Yes that's correct. Unfortunately we've had to make this change because of the new points limit which was imposed on us which has meant that our higher points riders have had to go. So who have you got that's still that was there last year? Well we've retained Hans Nielson erm Martin Dugard and Dean Barker. And who's come into the side then, tell me a bit about erm Tony Primmer. We've heard a lot about this Australian lad that's just about to come over. Yes, well Tony Primmer's one of the riders from Eastbourne that we managed to pick up because we can get him in on a low point average. erm We have now at long last got his work permit, and he appears in this country next Thursday. There were a few problems there though weren't there, about the work permit? Yes, there was a bit of the problem there is that erm under the erm Employment Act that erm you can't put an Englishman out of work, so erm his points limit was too low. But he was okay nationally, but when he reverted to the Senior Team, they erm changed his points situation by a calculation and erm said he couldn't come in which was a bit ludicrous. Anyway that's all been sorted out and that's what the problem was with all the work permit riders, coming down in you know, in points. And you've got a couple of other younger riders coming through haven't you? Yes, we've achieved erm well at the signing of the season I think erm from Poole, and we're also recalling Mark Carlson who was one of our junior riders out on loan to Stoke. So why does such a great amount of personnel change — can you explain about the points system here. Well we've brought the two leagues together and amalgamated them and to do this, obviously the old British League was much stronger than the old National League, and we've had to do some evening out. And to achieve this, they've brought the old British League points limit for forty six down to forty erm that's made an awful problem for the British League clubs. But I think in the long run, although I don't agree with forty, I would rather have gone a forty two, erm it will probably help the sport immensely in the end. Before we move on to next season, a word about the people that you've lost, people like erm Simon Wigg, a local lad, a great favourite among the crowds. Well that's right you see, but you see Simon finished up on just under an eight point average and there's no way we could fit him in. We wanted to bring Marvin Cox back from Bradford because he's so popular at Oxford, and he's over eight you see. So we couldn't fit him in either, so we've actually sold Marvin sadly to Poole, which erm he'll lead those to a good team I think. A couple of other changes over the closed season; firstly the scare over Hans Neilson, I think Oxford erm Oxford Cheetahs fans had their hearts in their mouths for about erm a month or so? Yes that's right. erm Every year it doesn't normally get in the press but we have to do a deal with all the federations abroad, the Swedes, the Danes, everybody and erm the Danes couldn't erm accept what we put to them this year. erm But we dug our toes in, and in fact it was sorted out over a week ago. What got in the press last week in fact was a few days late, it had all been sorted out. So it hasn't affected the way that the Oxford Cheetahs have actually prepared. No, no none at all. erm How have the preparations gone overall then? Well we think we've put a team together, very very hard to do to get into the points limit of forty. We've put a team together which we think will achieve the honours that we're looking for. Now the new league system has come through as well in the closed season. Can you tell me a bit about how it's changed and whether it is a good thing for Oxford Cheetahs. Well I think it's a good thing. The only bad thing of course, if we were to get relegated but to bring promotion and relegation into speedway is a good thing because you know, if you win the lower league, what have you won it for? You're going to stay there. Well now with promotion and relegation, they've got something to fight for and those at the bottom of the top league have got something really to fight for to save going down. Well a word about next Friday's match then, that's the big one, the one that everyone's waiting for against Kings Lynn. erm Tell me about that one first of all. Well we're looking forward to that one because Kings Lynn, who've sort of been at the bottom of the league for some time, have really put an interesting looking side together. And also, back in their team is erm Michael Lee who's been banned for some years now, and he's raring to go and erm I think they're all coming down to prove a few points. Just a word about the whole season now, Oxford last season, were finishing in cracking form. Can you continue that form, can you win the league? We're looking to win the league obviously. erm Sadly it won't be with the same riders we had last year, but the riders we've brought in I'm sure will erm, under the forty points erm give us a good team. Thank you very much Bernard Crapper. Adam Hollingworth talking with Bernard Crapper, the Oxford Cheetahs co-promoter. Well, Oxford United were trailing by three goals to nil at half time, they came back to draw three three. Oxford City were winning by three goals to nil and Cranfield United came back to force a draw, the final score; Oxford City three, Cranfield United three, reporting for us, John Shepherd. Yes, to use an old cliche, it was a game of two halves. City were looking to make the effort for a promotion spot when entertaining a side from the bottom half of the table, after being held to a draw last week. New signee, Mark Thomas put Chris Williams through early on, but the latter could only strike the keeper as he came out to intercept. After eleven minutes, City went one up; Thomas did well on the right to curb a shot on goal, but Kevin O'Shaughnessy could only parry away. The loose ball was collected by Stewart Taverner who's show in composure beat the keeper. City might well have added to the score minutes later when Ralph Purner struck a shot at goal, but O'Shaughnessy blocked. The rebound fell to Williams whose effort scraped the upright as it went outside. Cranfield came more into the game as they put pressure on City's defence. In the thirty fifth minute, City got their second, when Williams going for goal, was brought down by the keeper. With City's regular penalty taker unavailable, it was left to Steve Brown to hit the penalty home. Mick did well to hold a cross from Tony McGovern before, with a minute of the first half remaining, City scored their third. Paul Creed on the right flank crossed into goal for Stewart Taverner who rushing in, dived at ground level to head powerfully in for his brace of goals. The second half was to see a different story, after City's comfortable half time lead. Paul Creed under pressure could not reach with his back pass, but Mick Allen wasted a good chance by putting wide. Cranfield were to pull a goal back when in the fifty second minute, Tony Williams' free kick found Lionel Franklin, who looped a header over Torres. At this stage of the proceedings, City still held the initiative as Thomas went close with a header from Purner's cross. Mark Thomas then did well on the left, going past five defenders, but his colleagues were unable to find the net from his cross. Cranfield further reduced the arrears after seventy eighth minute. Mick Allen played the ball to Tony McGovern who turned it in. City still looked as though they could have held on, but with four minutes to go, the roles were reversed as Cranfield's McGovern set up Allen to level the scores. City will be kicking themselves for allowing Cranfield to get back into the game, but the visitors must be given credit for a spirited second half performance. A result that did little to enhance City's promotion prospects, final score; Oxford City three, Cranfield United three. John Shepherd reporting on that match; Oxford City three, Cranfield United three. Well on to greyhounds now, we're going to greyhound because Nick Harris always has problems at Molyneux, it's one of those grounds where the reporter has considerable trouble getting back to the erm press box after doing his interviews. Nick has been talking with manager Brian Horton and we'll be bringing you that interview as soon as we can. So on to greyhounds a little earlier than usual, it's the quarter final of the prestigious Pall Mall at Oxford Stadium tonight, the meeting starts at seven thirty. Here's Mick Weeble with his tips. The first leg is in the third race, the eight o'clock, this is the first quarter final. erm And here, I'm going to go for an outsider really, erm I'm going to go for Ashfield Charlie erm in trap two, Tommy Foster from Wimbledon trained runner this is. He run very well last time, showed plenty of early and he's going to be on his toes tonight, but anyway it's Ashfield Charlie in trap two, the selection for the first leg of the yankee. erm The second leg of the Radio Oxford yankee is in the sixth race, this is the second quarter final of the Pall Mall, and here I'm going to go erm for Social Circle in trap one erm trained by Linda Mullins at Walthamstow, a perfect trap draw for this erm Edinburgh Cup winner, he's won erm fifteen thousand in prize money. He's just come in on the come back trail and he seems to me to be getting better and better. So it's Social Circle as the second leg of the yankee in trap one, danger is the defending champion actually, last year's winner of the Pall Mall, Noel's Turbo, so it'll be interesting to see how he goes. And then in the third leg of the yankee, the eighth race, this is the nine sixteen, third quarter final erm and here I'm going to have to go for Ned Supreme in trap one, trained by Kenny Linzell at Romford in Essex. erm He's been improving all the time erm and I think he could be a live erm candidate for the outright winner, so that's the third leg of the yankee. And the fourth and final leg of the erm Radio Oxford yankee erm is in the tenth race which is the nine forty eight, and I'm going to stick with Darra Ash in trap four. This one comes from Perrybar up in Birmingham erm coming to form now, so that's the fourth and final leg of our Radio Oxford yankee. But I must just emphasise erm next Saturday is the real biggie night here at Oxford erm something not to be missed. It's the final of the Pall Mall erm a night out for all the family and erm we usually get such a good crowd that night, it really is erm the time to come, next Saturday night erm for the final. erm But see the quarter finals tonight, first race seven thirty tonight. Mick Weeble with all the greyhound news. Well let's go back to Molyneux, a reminder of that result if you've just joined us here on Talking Sport; Wolves three, Oxford United three. Nick Harris has been talking with the Oxford United manager, Brian Horton. Welcome to Molyneux, Headley, Brian Horton's with me, the United manager because he was brought up in this part of the world, must be very proud of what you brought up here for the second half Brian, but so disappointed after that first half showing. Well when it went three nothing I thought here we go, I've got all my friends and family, you know, come and watch, you tell them what a good side they are, and last few games they looked a good side — three nothing down in fifteen minutes. And I thought ‘I'm not going to be able to show my face’, now I can. But I can't I find it hard to explain why the after such a good performance against West Ham, But you know, it's just all over,be saying that about his side second half now won't he, because they've just put one point about a nine, and they're a good side. I thought it was two good attacking sides in a way, if you could put it all together. I mean it's fifteen minutes, as Jimmy Magilton just said ‘they blitzed us’. We blitzed ourselves a little bit I think you know, back pass we talked about, no back passes,ball gambles and everything, in he goes, two free headers basically. You know, it's bad defending, but we looked a different side second half, and not much was said at half time. You know, you normally go in and rant and rave, we didn't, we didn't today because we said like, I mean I think everybody sensed that, even at three nothing first half. If we score got a chance and we had the chances to score first half, didn't take them obviously and we get the goal, right time, they went a bit nervous, and we went on didn't we — we could have won it. Daft as it seems, we could have won it because the kick was produced too quick for Paul Simpson and we hit the ball later on, Mark Stein's a little back header, very unlucky not to win it for us. Four minutes to go, even you must have thought though, the chance had gone then. Well, you keep playing don't you, it's a ninety minute game, and then, as we've said erm I believe it was two goals in the last four minutes, was it? And we hit the bar as well, so it goes to the ninetieth minute doesn't it, that's what it is, a fifteen round fight goes to the last second doesn't it as some boxers have found out. Despite the disappointing erm what opening twenty four minutes, you must be pleased with the comeback, and it shows a bit more confidence in that the side can still come back from being three none. To be honest, I don't think they'd have done that a year ago Brian. Possibly, you might be right, I think we've got a bit more character in the side erm I think we've got a better all round side than this time last year, to be honest. But it does please me that we fight back, I like that, but it displeases me the way we sort of go under a little bit. The season could have really slipped away I think with a defeat today, but erm still keeps the season a little bit bright. Well I said to them before the game ‘you know, people are saying can we make the players , can you win ten out of twelve?’. Now we've got to win probably ten out of eleven. erm It keeps it going that way because you know, six games unbeaten, it's nice, it's nice to be unbeaten, but we just haven't won enough have we? You know if we'd defended properly first half we would have won the game today. Perhaps we wouldn't but perhaps they wouldn't have been if it's the right word for them, a bit sloppy. And I think they sat back a little bit, you know, and maybe tried to defend the three nothing lead. And I don't think you can do that, I think we've got too many good players which proved second half; the passion was super second half. The midfield three got into the game, the two fore backs started pushing and joining with joining in, it makes it a different side doesn't it? Very much, in fact the chances were coming your way before the goals went in, you could have been on level terms an awful lot earlier. I think so, you know, and the lads have just said that, and then we went I think after the first goal, twenty odd minutes, it looked as though three one it was going to end up didn't it. It looked as though we'd had our little flurry and that was going to be it. But credit to the lads, very very good to keep fighting and plugging away; Andy Melville's popped up with an important one, Steinie's gone and done his job erm that's what subs are there for. And then Simo's got the equaliser, and I think Simo's got two in two goals two goals in two games now, yes, very pleased with the overall performance and overall at the end of the day, not overall performance if you know what I mean. I'm talking a bit Irish here aren't I? Nick Harris talking with United boss, Brian Horton, the final score; Wolves three, Oxford United three. Well the day's major national story has been the Rugby International at Twickenham, a reminder of the scoreline; England twenty one, France nineteen. To reflect on that match and to look forward to the Oxfordshire Cup Final between Henley and Oxford, Adam Hollingworth is joined by Ray Tapper, the Oxford coach, and Nigel Dudding, the Henley club captain. First Ray Tapper, a word about that match erm pretty exciting wasn't it? The England game, very exciting yes and really to the last minute you didn't know who was going to win it, with France coming back with two late tries erm but England's forward domination told in the end. Nigel Dudding, you're speaking to us from the bar at erm Henley Rugby Club, what was the atmosphere there, watching the game? Absolutely tremendous, I mean it was like being inside erm with a lot of people with us, there was about a hundred, a hundred and fifty people here. erm We had a big screen and the atmosphere was absolutely tremendous — right up to the last minute as you said, with three points in it, it was very tense. Were people putting their money on England, did they reckon that they were going to survive that last onslaught? I think in the end, yes, the money was with England erm and in the end, the amount of possession that they actually had, that erm it sort of told the day in the end. Of course, your coach is Clive Woodward and he was in the grand slam winning side of nineteen eighty wasn't he? He was at Twickenham today I understand. Yes, I'm sure he's a very very happy man tonight, he's been looking forward to this game tremendously for the last couple of weeks. erm As he will obviously tomorrow as well, but erm he was a bit tense and a bit nervous before, but erm I'm sure that erm he'll be absolutely delighted with this result. Does this victory put his team's achievement into perspective do you think, eleven years on? Well erm I think so, I mean they had a great side under Bill Beaumont's leadership and it's been promising for a couple of years with England, and today they actually came through with the goods erm a bit of an anti-climax last year at erm at Murrayfield. But today, I think with the confidence and the amount of possession they'd got, they were thoroughly deserved winners. Let's turn now to tomorrow's match — Henley versus Oxford. Henley I'm told are a team transformed this season, is that down to Clive Woodward? erm Yes to a great deal erm extent erm when a new player or a new coach comes into a side, it's very difficult at times to erm settle into a pattern or a way that you want to work with him, and erm I think now erm we're beginning to understand that, the way he wants to play. erm When we've last played Oxford erm we didn't do very well and we were still in the sort of infancy if you like, under sort of Clive's leadership. Now I think, with erm with a great understanding, we are playing some very very good rugby. Oxford as well have traditionally done well in the Cup erm Ray, they beat Henley by thirty points, is there any cause for concern for you? Oh, absolutely yes, I mean erm we played Henley in the league just before Christmas and as Nigel said, we put thirty points on them. erm We were playing very well at the time, Henley weren't; they've improved out of all proportion since Christmas and we've been up and down, we've played some really good games and one or two not so good. So tomorrow could be anybody's game. Oxford again are a side with some scalps under their belts, Broughton Park, Solihull, Bury Hill — but you've sometimes erm come a cropper against smaller sides haven't you? Yes, we've done well we've had a pretty good season really, right throughout the club erm in our non-league games. But the games that matter most obviously nowadays are the league games and we've lost three badly bad league games to what we would call inferior opposition. erm And then we go turn around and beat a league division side three side, or a league division four side with no problem whatsoever; it's just inconsistency. What sort of a game can we expect to see Nigel? Tomorrow? Well we like erm obviously to keep the ball alive erm I guess that Oxford may , I don't know whether Ray would agree with me, may play the set pieces a little bit. We would like to keep the ball alive, we like to keep the ball on the park and erm looking from there, we will be harrying, chasing; we think we've got a very good set of backs. Well I agree with you Nigel erm we also have a good set of backs we feel erm unfortunately the weather at the moment — it's pouring outside, and hopefully tomorrow it'll be dry. Because I think it could be a real cracker, because both sides like to run the ball, and having said that, if it's wet erm we feel we have the ammunition to play in that sort of condition. So who's going to win then — Nigel? Well I don't think there's any doubt about it, I mean our improvement over the last erm four or five weeks has been absolutely tremendous. We had an excellent result against Sidcup who were top of London one erm a couple of weeks ago, and although we didn't play well at Banbury, we still won. And erm I think if you can erm win a game while not playing particularly well, then erm obviously, it's sort of it's a good omen for the future. Thank you — Ray? Well, yes Nigel's got every reason to be confident. No we're fairly confident, we've had a very good build up this week and erm it's a one off, it's on the day. I think we can do it. And just a reminder for anybody that wants to go along and watch this game, where is it going to be played? It's on the Oxford University ground, Iffley Road, two thirty kick off. Thank you very much. Adam Hollingworth talking with Ray Tapper, the Oxford coach and Nigel Dudding, the Henley Club captain. Let's hope we have a good game tomorrow. And now the local results. And that's about it from Talking Sport this evening, the headlines; Oxford United take a point in a dramatic comeback at Molyneux, they were trailing by three goals to one with four minutes left. And then two goals from Stein and Simpson brought them level with Wolves, the final score; three three. Just a reminder that Steve Bull had given Wolves a three nil lead after just twenty four minutes. So that's it from our programme this Saturday evening, thanks to all the reporters and thanks for listening. I hope you can join us all at the same time next Saturday; United at home to Barnsley in a division two match. Have a good weekend, from me, Headley Feast, a very goodnight to you. So they're making a new dictionary? It's not writing sound sound. Instead of people having to read up the words in a dictionary it's gonna be a sound dictionary. Speak. be able to speak to the, to the machine Mhm. and it will speak back what, what the meaning of that word is like with an ordinary dictionary. That's what they are researching to do. all different meanings of the wor but can you not just look at the dictionary and read the dictionary ? Pardon? Can you not just read the dictionary ? You know just look up in the dictionary Yeah but er it was set up because of for foreigners words to pronounce the words properly, that's why they wanted different people,of people to do sections pensioners er shopkeeper and a Oh yes cos there must have been, that was John doing that this is oh this is great fun he says, and he er Johnny was saying that erm if he whispered he would only speak up louder. What he knows about these things would be great. And he was saying that it's erm a speaking dic dictionary, that's what they're going to researching for Mhm. a spoken dictionary. And he said what they're tr er what they want to do is erm pick out a word pick out a word and then in a conversation they would fi find out how many meanings to that one word. Oh right. You know er on er or how many spellings Eng in the English language, through though, though throughout, thorough, all spelt the, near enough the same but all d all different meanings and they could pick out and I said well erm it would er be handy for foreign people to have a speaking dictionary because they would be able to pick up the pronunciation of that word wouldn't they? Mhm. Instead of reading it down, I mean say a Frenchman reading it down, say through erm He wouldn't understand that would he? he wouldn't understand that. No. And th they could get the pronunciation as well, be able to, to speak it properly besides spelling it. And they I think you would learn languages quickly by that way. Oh yeah So I think that's, I think that's what's gonna happen. So erm Well does will you still hear yourself Katie? Where that is. I suppose so. I had mine away up here. Did you? Yeah your voice your voice over you know You know what, my voice was Ah I'd of I just Could you? Yes Imagine putting three tapes on Oh yeah! Well I have not stopped come home. Not I went to bed last night at twelve o'clock John and Ryan was in bed about twelve I think, the two of them just fell straight to sleep. Did you mind him going over there, staying over there ? No I did not, I asked him if he wanted to stay. Did you? Mhm. He walked out I walked out of here in a huff Did he? Yeah See er John's a bit too, well he's a bit oldish or old in his ways to to have the responsibility of youngsters. Mm. He, he can't let them go. He's worried about them the whole time. I think that Ryan was saying something that John fell out with him because of his motorbike. Yeah. He says John's won't speak to me now because of the motorbike and er I says oh Ryan you must be imagining things, he says no he says he just won't talk to me because I've got the motorbike. Well I said maybe maybe he's worried about you falling off it or Well he is worried about them having an accident with it but, but he's not er worried about him having the motorbike, no he cos he would have done the same as a er child anyway well things like that, but erm what he's worried about is that er with Ryan i and the other boy,n not Ryan so much, the other boy does it all the time, they're churning all the grass up all over there in great big Well that's because Ryan Yeah. Well he goes like lightning over there Yeah well the police are down here watching and what J er what erm John, John's worried about is that erm the police have been along here and they've had, had complaints and John was out at the gate and he was talking to them and they, they'll fine them. And John says like Joan can't afford to p to pay fines. So I don't think John's ever on Ryan's mind you. Oh he, he has Has he? he has been on it yeah Has he been on it? And then of course going up and down here see there's the notice up there no motorbikes. Aye there's five, I think there's five courses now closed down, there's only two left. They're only allowed in two Ryan said. So where them two are I don't know. What the courses? Mhm. Yeah. But this, this path it's against the law to ride on. Yeah. See they've got, on the, on the lamp post there they've got the signs up. Mhm. And like John said if they, the way they come along here so fast if any child came out of their back gate they'd have no chance. Mm. No chance of stopping, they would kill theirselves. Ryan used to wheel it down before I went to hospital he used to wheel it down but he, now I see he rides it down. Yeah that's because he's with the other boy. See when they're with others. There's there's eleven, eleven Is there? or twelve of them. Yeah. Yeah if they only wh wheeled it down and then they're allowed on the paths I'll have a word with him. round. And er but not where there's houses, it's like a car That's right. you've got your thirty mile limit That's right. wha er like It's true you know if a di if a child did come out the gate, with that wee fella yesterday I saw him he was with Ryan and he went up that path like lightning. Yeah. Yeah. I heard Ryan coming on a good wee bit behind him, but this,up that path like, I says to if that wee fella fell off that bike he's killed. Yes. Yes But his coat his coat was flapping like that. yeah. And, or else he'd be severely injured that he's got the, the family rest of their life having to look after him and and could kill somebody. Couldn't couldn't See cos there's no insurance or licence Well Ryan Ryan, he's insured. Is he? Mhm. We've had, we've them insured from when they were born. Aha. But fr but insured for riding a bike? No. No, see they're, they're supposed to have an insurance mechanical and a licence. So they could be stopped. I think the, the police are just watching Mm. but if they really catch them cos they're down here a lot now because of er what's going on underneath those arches Ooh them arches are terrible Kate. Ooh the other night you never heard drugs oh dear dear. But a lot of them young kids of twelve year old, twelve to thirteen Yeah, yeah course i it's when they're in with a crowd they, they, they get a bit you know,dar daredevils, they ooh, they want to do it. But it's only when they're in a crowd but course, among that crowd are some that are bad and some that are good get carried along with them, that's Mm that's the thing. that, that's the trouble. And that's true you know Lindsey's far too old for her age or you'd think she was o she er oh she was like Andrea Yeah. Yes, yeah, yeah you know the way Andrea was at that age? You would have swore she was seventeen Yes, mhm. well Lindsey, mind she smoking when she was twelve and drinking and she didn't like it she says because it made her head go all funny and she didn't know what was going on, what was happening. Oh dear But she says mummy I didn't like that feeling. And Ah she says I didn't take any more, and I haven't taken any more. And I cried, I must have cried Kate for two hours. Yeah I know it's awful worry, if they only understood how, how the parents worry about it. Well then I must have cried for two hours and Yeah. After all the, the and feeling great just knocked the Course it do course it do. That's wh that's what er any er John gets t touchy because he can't really, big man he is, he, he can't really take responsibility Mhm. and he thinks that while the children are here, he's responsible for every move. It's got so that he was the same with Joan, you have to let you have to let go. have to let go. Erm Because I found with Lindsey, anyway, with Ryan I had no trouble or nothing cos the only Yeah. bother I've ever had with him, and he goes on to it and away he goes and he'll come back in the house and he'll go up the stairs to the computer, and that's his life. But with Lindsey it was the smoking, the drinking staying out, out pretending she was babysitting erm ringing her daddy home and saying daddy can I babysit the night till half eleven and her daddy's thinking that she was telling the truth Yeah that and then he's saying yes as long as you, you are babysitting Aha. and she wasn't babysitting, she was out till half eleven at night Aha. and I phoned one night late and, it was late and I phoned for I wanted her to come home, and I was it was quarter to twelve and said she's not home yet. Well Kate what a night I spent and I must have phoned Yeah every ten minutes. So she arrived, eventually arrived in at quarter to twelve. She said she'd been babysitting, but then and the doors and and and I this filthy, filthy, dirty letter somebody had written to her, some other girl Aha yeah that she'd chummed about with had written to her Mhm. and we were gonna get the police to ge w well i it just said the, the short name and we thought it was a boy that had written and if it had've been we were gonna get the police because she's under age you see. She's under age, yeah. Mhm. And er I so so I brought her and her three friends that she'd run, chummed about with them and I give them a good talking to for about an hour. I and er told Lindsey if she'd ever any problems never to write them down to a friend Yeah but to come to me do you, do you want this off? No no but suppose some other mother may be listening to it have go through the same thing. Mhm. But she's getting carried away with this, though her friends are good enough but they're all getting carried away as you would say with a bad crowd. Yeah, yes it's only wants one bad one among the crowd, like a ba a b bad apple, go through the lot. I'm having the trouble with her at the moment. But what chance have they got round here? I mean that's the that's the attitude of Well there's nothing for them of the majority of them isn't it? there is nothing for them. Nothing. Well thank God Joan's gone through that period. She was the same. She used to say, say, phone up and say she was and I used to say well where give me the address, just anything happens to us Mhm. we can get in touch, well she'd never give the address of where she was babysitting. And she'd, she'd even get her girlfriend's mother to ring up to say she was staying there the night, the mothers used to s ring up Joan tell them that it was al alright for er for er Andrea to stay there the night and she was never, she was camping out in the fields with a crowd of them oh go through it you know. Yeah. You don't realize you're going through it. I never realized what I put my mother through when I was going And it was er through it my, myself. No. Oh w well I don't think the temptations were there when we were younger. No. Not like the I feel sorry Even conversation like me and you talking here, the children would have been put outside Yeah. or up on their beds or something. That's right. Not allowed to speak No. or anything like that. Didn't do us any harm Eilleen, did it? All this strict upbringing. My father was very strict Well that's what fourteen, and I've had never no trouble with him. No. Never ever had a, except he he goes mad when he gets older but I don't think it's him No, no see eventually you know er when Pearl, my other daughter came over Christmas, course Andrea was more or less still going through a bit of a rough period with between her grandfather and her, you know? Erm and she's had seven youngsters and she's brought them up and she a , on her own she's had to bring them up cos he left her for another, another woman and erm she had the seven and she's worked and fought hard cos she wouldn't ask for a darn thing and er they're, they're great those kids, they are, they're a credit to her, you know, but it's taken it out of her, she's That's what I said, it takes it out of you. Ooh! It's taken it out of her but she's fought hard for them but she's been very I've marvelled at her cos as a youngster I never thought she was capable of doing what she's done, and she's brought them up fine and fair. She's, she's let go when she knew that she ought to let go. And she, she had a go at er Johnny here, she said you Well when do you let go Kate? she said you, you've got to tr you've got to trust them and, and But when you trust them and then they tell you lies what do you do? Yeah yeah but You know I just can't er but she said but Pearl said what's in them when they're born what take after their mother and their father that'll come out in the finish. They go through these periods of revolting against their sort of erm tight upbringing Mhm. and they revolt against it and you've just gotta keep your fingers crossed that nothing happens to them in that period. But they do come out of it cos Joan's, Joan's had Mine's just going through it very young though. Yeah, well Joan was, Joan was the same and she's a different girl altogether, she's, she's absolutely great. Cos it's, it's there, it's her nature like Pearl said, her nature as she is will When I look at Lindsey come out the same. when I look at Lindsey and what she's doing at the minute, I look back to my own life at her age Mhm. I was doing exactly the same. Were you? Aha. You know Yeah. when I, I was staying out late at night, I was going against my mother, every word she said it was wrong you know I wanted to do my own thing and Oh yeah, aha, yeah. I see an awful, awful lot of Lindsey in me. Mhm. What I used to be like not, not as young as her like No. you know No of course that's all gradually gone on see, I mean when even when er at fourteen, fifteen we, we had to be, all be in bed asleep before nine o'clock at night. What are you going in there for? John And he would be the right one to b be on this because I mean he's so intelligent, he would but he won't even I think he must of turned that tape on yesterday. Aye But he speaks the, the wo A Ann was her name, she said that he speaks too softly to to go on to that. Well I don't suppose they'll, they'll never understand me I don't suppose. Oh dear They only pick out a word word here and there see Oh Yeah. Aha. Yeah. Joan's just rung see they come over for, all of them come over for dinner every Sunday, and er Joan's er Andrea's going out with a crowd of them today she's in with a nice girl a girl er married and the husband, he's treats Andrea as if it's a baby sister, so he's more or less looking after her which is Joan's very pleased about Mhm. and they live near them and his wife's, he's away from home a lot, so his wife's happy because she's got Joan for company and gradually she's getting her old self and she won't be coming over today so she's phoned her granddad up to let him know so he won't be worried. It gets to them in the finish and there's about eight of them all going out for a Chinese because it's this girl's birthday tomorrow, so there's er eight of them all going out. Well Lindsey she's to go to a disco night in in a fortnight's time all her friends she says are going. So I says only on one condition if your daddy pi leaves you at the door at school and picks you up Oh yeah. after. Mhm. Well you can't get out to get drunk or do anything bad. Well she'll be in the school there'll be, there'll be teachers there that'll be watching over them Yeah. you know and she says well I said that's the only way Lindsey you're going to get it and I says I mean that's the only way you're going to get it. So er she says well you can think about it for a fortnight er you see her daddy put out discos altogether because of the lies but she cos she gets nervous because when she's telling a lie to you she'll go red Red. Oh you can read their faces can't you? You don't even have to look at her face, you just have to look at her neck. Yeah. Yeah. I blame myself you see for going in the hospital. Now this is the first weekend Kate we'd really a good weekend you know I've worked and worked and last weekend I could do nothing. The weekend before that they only allowed me out one day overnight So do you feel better in yourself then? I feel great. Yeah, oh great. You're not, have you still got to do that six months or not? No. Oh good. Oh good, yeah. Well that was hanging over your head. Oh that was, I, I was waiting on them saying and you see you're constantly worry of what's going on at home, and that's not helping really. Yeah aha. Whereas when you are at home I've just said are you still having to do the six months, it'll sound as if you're getting a prison sentence Well it is a prison sentence let me tell you It is like, yeah, instead of having for, for, for treat treatment for you're watched where you're going and you're followed where you're going. Oh yes I mean their attitude there is not very good is it? Not, it's n no good f to help. Well I'm going in this weekend, I've to go in tomorrow morning, and I'm gonna just say I want to go home. But then they'll and say wait till Thursday till the round, the doctor's round. See even if it's only for the three days Oh of course the doctor's got to sign you off anyway hasn't he? I'd rather have the doctor saying that I can't go home rather than me signing myself out. Yeah, oh yes But you see you worry about Lindsey at home. Yeah. Well her daddy he's not so bad, he's I think he has two long days but as you say well sh sh you can't be with them every twenty four hours of the day can you? No, no, no. Only but we had the same thing with, course it's going back Joan's generation er see younger generation altogether than mine but our, our lives were well we'll say well my father was in the Secret Service, in the government, Scotland Yard but erm so we was known, no no, no dear, no it's, I've, tell by the sound of the throat, got a s bit of a sore throat You're Filled up ? No Have I? Yeah, mm well I You've lost an awful lot of weight Yeah, yeah, look get the fingers round there . I couldn't do these up some time ago but erm I have, I've lost weight, but erm Mm feel good. So erm the only thing this shaking comes on but er years ago I mean we daren't go against our parents. Oh you wouldn't go, well I wouldn't say that you could my father would've half killed us If he knew, yeah, yeah. but it didn't do us any good. Well w we didn't have to do, do anything that way because we were allowed our freedom up to a certain time and that was it. Mm. But there wasn't the temptations now you see At six o'clock you were dead. Then. Yeah. Well even m er my kiddies er not An er Joan so much but the others seven o'clock was the latest they ever went to bed. I remember mummy putting us to bed at six. Six o'clock on a Saturday night and Yeah, mm, yeah. Well we was the same a and er they didn't mind it. I was laughing about with er what's, I'm gonna write er a note to my chi er letter to my children for, you know, before very long no good thinking about it, well you wouldn't think about it after when it's too late, but my kids have been a you know a great comfort the four from my first Joan, Joan has too, she's been a dear but we had the same problems when she was getting older. Times I've, I've sat up at the window trying to wa watch her coming round two o'clock in the morning hoping that he's fallen asleep down in the armchair. And then opening the door quietly for her to come in and You do, you try to stand up for them, protect them Oh! Yeah yeah. you know But i is it right? But then when he has wo woken up and heard her come in and that he's had her standing in front of him and the old finger's been going, exactly what he's doing now, he's done it with his Mm with Joan. And the finger's stood there and she's had to stand there shaking from head to foot Well I know the night Lindsey was smoking and she had or something but smelt the smoke on her breath and he got the belt and he gave her a belt and I lay in bed Kay and I cried Yeah it's, yeah I couldn't there was nothing I could do. Yeah. And if I had a went in to comfort her I might as well of undone everything he did Yeah that's right she, you, you've gotta er grit But it didn't do any good, the next morning she was smoking in the bathroom. Was she? So it didn't help. No. She was grounded. That hasn't helped. She has talked, we've talked to her yesterday, was it yesterday? Or the day before? Yesterday I think well m maybe the day before Friday. So she started to cry and all then and said she said she was sorry, and right enough she stuck to the time that we allow her to, she's come in last night dead on the button. Did she? Oh yeah, yeah. That's give her the start and then you I says Lindsey if you want us to trust you, you have got to tell the truth Yeah, oh yes see and let us know what you're doing. Yeah. You see even when they tell the truth, if they've been telling lies for a long time, even if they, when they tell the truth you don't believe them Mhm because of the lies they've told before that's right. so that you Well she was staying overnight at some wee girl's house and I'd say well that's alright as long as you're as long as, you know, that know the wee girl's mother maybe, she's a daughter a wee bit older than Lindsey herself who had the , but no this mother see she was divorced and going with these men and let her daughter stay out to half eleven, and Lindsey was,n wasn't in her house till half eleven. So I says now that's stopped Yeah. so that definitely has stopped, you'll not be staying with anybody overnight. No. You see But it's hard Kay isn't it? it was, that's the same with er But with, with my granddaughter, she, she did the same s she used to go and babysit at this girl's house and she fe felt, she was only fourteen, and she felt sorry for her and she'd go and babysit every night she'd go and babysit and er but she used to b sit up in the bedroom, she never ever went down the sitting room thinking that the child's mother was either down in the sitting room or just going out for a short while and coming back and then eventually they put erm a bed up in the child's bedroom for Denise to stay there over nights and Pearl didn't worry at all, well she knew, knew where, at least she knew where and er this girl was bringing men back down in the sitting room every night, three or four, sometimes ten men in a night during the night! And Denise is there fourteen and a very attractive girl and that . The, the that she was under, and Pearl did, Pearl was trusting her and, and knew, and so the Denise was saying the right thing, she was staying in the bedroom, never knew what was going on down there. It's these people that lead to I know. They've got no thought only for their selfish own ways you see. That's right. Well I says to Lindsey, said if you ever want me out of that hospital Lindsey you'd better start and be good. But I know she's gonna sh she's in tonight and she's gonna have to go out there. I know she is, it's a stage she's going through. You know? Mhm. But hopefully Yeah last too long. Oh yeah. I do Andrea was up to see me one day. What up at the hospital? Mhm. Oh did she, she, did she go? She said she w you know, would like to go She come up up to see Eilleen and I said I'm sure it would be alright. Mhm. We were talking of the boys you know one time she used to go with Richard and Yeah. she says Eilleen do you remember the time she said I went with Richard? I says c how could I ever forget it, I said it must have been near halloween, one halloween, for I remember her coming to the party and that's how her and Richard met. Aha. she was saying now is he still going with the girl that he was, that he's going wi he was going with and I says he's still . That's where he's away this weekend to her place, and then he's going next weekend because there's some wedding do or something er so he's to go next weekend, he goes there, stays with her parents and then she'll come down the weekend after that and stay at our house. She'll, she'll That's er er c sleep in Lindsey's room you see and then Does she? Lindsey sleeps in Richard's bed and Richard he sleeps on the settee. Yeah. So er Well then er er he's settled down. it's going ni it's going nice, oh good. Gr Joan That's going good now. er Andrea has even, I suppose it was one day last week she was happened to speak about ooh she said I was only thinking d the other day she said I was long the longest with Richie R Richie She calls him R R Ricky er Richie er longer than she'd been with any you know, boy that she got on with Well Richard's so much,i it's what an awful lot of childishness in him Yeah He still plays with wee men, you know he, he will have this strip of board Yeah. and he would have all these wee men and like different huts, and this is all set out and he's a brilliant drawer, I've never seen him draw Is he? oh really brilliant drawer Really. I was cleaning out the room there the other day and he must be training, he must be weightlifting or something up in the bedroom but he's a health health book, a big thick health book and there's bodies, you know, the human body Aha. and their muscles would be Yeah where the muscles are Aha. and honest to goodness Kay they're brilliant, where he has, where he has just Aha copied them out of the book. Well what's he going in for? Does he want to go in for ta He's he's might be getting a job, I don't know what he want he doesn't really know what he wants to do yet Oh. but he might be getting a job felting roofs, putting roofs and and Oh well that th that's a pity if he's got a a a thing for drawing, he wants to go in for draughtsmanship or something like that, people I says Richard would you not even go on to the tech and, or somewhere that you could get better on your drawing and he, he Develop on that. does really brilliant figures of people you know. Yeah. Er er he tried one time, he'd got his daddy's photograph and he was actually trying to draw his father from the photograph Mhm. Mhm. and there was a great resemblance. But these men, you know these, these men with the armour and all on them? Oh yes, soldiers Oh he's brilliant, he has them stuck on the side of his wardrobe door on big pages this size, you know, maybe this height, and it's detailed right through the whole thing. Me and Andy You, you want was looking at them the other day and they're really brilliant. You want to let John see them cos he's a marvellous artist. Mhm. You want to see the oil paintings he's done. I must bring them, I must bring a couple Yeah bring them over and let John see them Mhm. perhaps he'll talk him into It's these things that have gone for but Richard is very much a child Yeah well yes but, perhaps it's a good thing. He's no dr he doesn't drink and he doesn't smoke. He sits up the stairs and either plays the computer or draws these men or plays with these wee men all over the place, so Yeah. Well I mean all men go in for these model things. all models he must have Yeah a hundred of them. But they're all, they must be all of different armies you know? Yeah. That's right. Oh well they, they, they do th , men do those things until they're Andrew sit there and play with them. aged seventy and eighty, yeah well, that's not, that's not childish,me men, course men rea never really grow up do they? Not really. I know but that's alright But they don't, they don't at all But er I remember Andy picking toys for Ryan that he would like to play with himself Yeah. when Ryan was younger. Well I think every man's, every man's the same, especially fathers And I the same for, when Lindsey was a wee girl and I mean a wee girl like, I'd pick wee things for her I'd of loved my mummy to buy me. Yeah, mm yeah. It's in, it's in all of us. Oh it's pouring with rain. Is it? Mm. Just coming, it's started to come down. Yeah I think we're all the same though, we all sort of dwell back on our There's a child in us somewhere. Yes, mhm. There's a bit of the child in us somewhere Yeah. Yeah. But my, my brothers with er, with models and things like that, one of them's still got er the lead er soldiers on horseback and That's what these are. They're l lead men you know and he has er painted this and it must be something to do with these men but these drawings now, I've never seen drawings like them Yeah. like them and I must say, tell him you wanna see them because me and him don't talk very much because No. he's either up the stairs well he came down one night right enough he was talking to his girl on the phone, she phones him through the week and er he was a bit depressed because he he hadn't the money, he's, he's on the and he hasn't really the money to give in for housekeeping plus try and get driving lessons and his daddy won't let him No see housekeeping money for he wants him to learn the, the value of money Yeah. Well that's, yeah. Well I says Andy cut it down a bit like, even if you could cut, cut it down a bit for and I says he can't afford to give big housekeeping money and plus try and get a bus away to Kilkeel and take out, or take the wee girl out, what do you call her, Sonia. So his daddy cut it down to twelve pound a fortnight, that's six pound a week Mhm. and his daddy says I'm not going any lower than that Richard. So right enough Richard was pleased for Richard thought it was gonna be ten pound a week Aha. you know? So he's away to Kilkeel and I says getting engaged and he says to me do you want rid of me or something? You know I really hurt him. But I was only kidding him going Yeah. you know but er he took it bad, he, he says do you not Yeah it was where J do you not want me in the house. where John was born, Kilkeel. Is that right? Mm. Well that's where He was b he was born up in the mountains up in the mountains of Mourne. the wee girl . Sure if the weekend sure she would, she, she loves just coming down and would wash the dishes and dry them but Richard won't let her do it. Yeah. He'll say no you're down here to visit. I'm, I, I noticed er Ricky, they were coming across I was er washing the erm venetian blinds up in the er er bedrooms and he came out with his young lady and er they came down ac across the grass and he was in front, and he jumped over the fence at the bottom, and she this little, and she was ha was having to climb and she was stuck th like that, and he looked back and thought she, he, she was with him and when he s and er he went back, but he went back, and I thought to myself oh like a gentleman, and lifted her over. Yeah he did and I thought to myself oh well you're, you're growing up Ricky, I thought to myself. I had to smile Oh dear because of the way he did it, you know? And it was great Andrew says and then they went off and talking away to each other, it was, it was lovely. mm Yeah. And of course But there's still an awful lot of the child in him. You know? Yeah. Yeah well I think they And he sent me a lovely Mother's Day card I think they all are, you know. a lovely Mother's Day card Mhm. And he's a, he's something framed up in the room there, I haven't it's a certificate for something they've got from school, and he's that framed and up in his room. But his drawings are really good, you know well when I say drawings er drawings are, these are army, armed men you know Yes. real armed men Mhm. and he may be and careless and just throws his clothes down everywhere but then his mind's in the right place. Oh well you know peo people that throw their clothes around and untidy, they turn out the best of people. Yeah. N you're not gonna speak, no, but can I ask you something? Eh? He's gone up there May I ask you something John? What? Will you make a cup of coffee ? You, you have put on the weight . You're like myself That's the s that's the s I'm trying to copy you. that's the sweets, that's the sweets he eats That's what I'm saying, you're like myself. that's the sw I've, I've put on an awful lot of weight. that's the sw tha that's the sweets he eats er Are you a sweetie lover? oh God, do you know Are you a sweetie eater? you know Joan er Andrea, wasn't it? Andrea bought him, you know the big ja he's g always got a pocket full any time at all ooh that jar Andrea bought him that Christmas full of toffees Oh gracious. and Joan came over she came over about a week or so after, not, not much more than a week, and she sat there and she said oh well yeah I'll have one of your, he asked if we'd like a sweet, she said yeah I'll have one dad. And he gets the jar cor she said that's disgusting dad she said and he had course he blames all of us for having some but we hadn't touched them. There you are you see. Of course every now and again the hand goes down the side a hand goes down and up comes the sweets and it's continuous. Ooh what's happened to this? Sugar Eilleen? John, if it's a mug two if it's a mug two please. These all your Mother's Day cards ? Yeah. I've a lovely one from Richard. Ryan he says it's foolish, cards, he says mum when you just, you just put them somewhere and forget where you put them, so he says I've decided to buy you oh this looks a lovely one That's, that's from er I was looking for something else where did I wonder what I've done with those. Mhm. Who's that from Joan? Jo Joan when she came over she gave me a hug and she said I mean every word of that mum. She, she had it specially Lovely innit? I, what I'm looking for is oh You're not looking for John's sweets are you? No. Oh he I said still looking for your sweets is she. No. There's another lovely one. From Andrea Mhm. Andrea and John yeah. Well I'm blowed, I wonder where they are. You're not old nan you've just lived a long time they're beautiful. Lovely one, yeah Well I think that's that's from Joan, birthday one, see my birthday's just before Christmas. Ah sh wonder where she gets her cards from it's not Eastlands is it? No. Cos they're beautiful In Belfast I think somewhere. looking for? Yeah yeah. good laugh Yeah. That's what I said to that Ann, be able to get something on that somebody says that they haven't said it and be able to play it back to them. Proof Johnny have you erm moved I haven't touched nothing in those drawers. Rose's photographs? I've touched nothing in those drawers. Oh I can't find them. That's lovely. What's the joke? It's just the way you signed it Yeah Kate what are you looking for? Well I'm looking for a I'm not attaching it to you this time at all Is it still running? Ah we've only a wee bit to do. How many's this, number one? That's only number one, one Oh goodness. side, Oh is it ? It's a good job I come over isn't it? yeah cos that's, there's not gonna be much more. You can see how things are with conversation And yesterday I started it off all er lovely, good morning John and he, and he John, John answered And that's the last he's spoke since . We were starting to say something else Useless kid. That's my daughter's Oh isn't that lovely? Look at, for goodness sake. Look at the way he's, look he's got a teddy bear Honest to heaven and he sits lifts it, gets up on the settee and cuddles that until he goes to sleep. Isn't that a big ! That's, that's er Now you can sort yourselves out. Oh Is this home baked John? Yeah he's he's Is this home baked? He, he, he's We'll get you on it yet if Kate hasn't already wrecked it. In, in the newspaper write up of us arriving in New Zealand This here? Yeah yeah yeah but erm, oh I don't know I must have, must find those I don't think Joan's taken them. Oh I know where they are leave it on there Yeah all the Irish people were in that hall and welcomed us because we were from Ireland, New Zealand, over in New Zealand I'm not putting on here in case you fold yourself down. No, okay then . Yeah, send, they sended me photographs of their dogs and their John I bet you have never been so quiet. Well it's a good way to shut him up isn't it? Sign language, you'll have to get used to sign language Kate or Kate Eh? I keep calling you Kate. Hang on I think they're here John. No, whoops sorry love. You're alright. They're not here. They'll say I wonder what she's trying to find in there with all that rattling. Well that was better than mine because all you heard was the the clatter of the washing machine and the clinking of the tumble dryer. Ah Have you found them? Yeah. Why, is it hard? No if you, if you lacquer it it puts a bit of a shine on Yeah? plus it protects it, stops it from getting chipped. cut it in cardboard to the shape of that is pretty near For here? Yeah. How long did it take you to do that? Well, when did I start it? Was it yesterday morning? Yeah, when you put the first coat on it. Saturday. I gave it a coat yesterday morning and then it hardened up and I rubbed it down with a bit of fine wire wool today Yeah. and gave it a couple of coats this morning What? What? Go on, it's only con ordinary conversation, there's no names going down. what we're saying. What are you doing that for ? There in her pocket. Oh aye but what are you doing it for? Who gave you that ? A resear er research people. Er see it's only just ordinary conversation of y nob nobody knows who, who, who says these things at all. So What is this about?recording. Well they're going to, it's a new Well er kind of dictionary, see if there was one word, say constipation Ooh No come in, come in hey. No, switch that off. Oh come on, it's alright. S oh no no no. What's the difference? Nobody knows who you are or anything else. Aye it's just a laugh, come on and say some silly words will we? No. You use er No, no no I know that particular word one way I use it one way mum uses it one way and er uses it one way see they're gonna make up a dictionary of how many different expr er interpretations of a word Meanings, yeah Well who's asked you to do this? Oh research people that came to the door And gave you that there? Pic oh I've got it for a week and if I get successful in doing so many tapes then I get twenty pound, twenty five pound v voucher to spend to spend in I know. Yeah. Well that's up to them innit? Alright? I don't know if I've got it on. I probably haven't. I hope you haven't. What do you mean you hope you haven't? What's the difference, nobody knows who you are or Aye Oh yes it's going. Aha. And he said I think, I think the black is erm Eight quid it costs for a new visor. Right. Does all visors h sta er fit standard helmets? Mm no,sometimes they're different. Are they? Grants do they sell black visors cos they No Grants Grants Where's that? Right. Oh aye, aye. I'll take that in and see if I can get one fitted. It'll look cool won't it? Aye. My auntie sent that over from England Aye. No makes no difference if erm th there were one or two. So what have you to do with this? What's that? There, that's a grip. Grip. Oh I see Oh the inside of the hole is bigger than one that I originally had, with the grip and the bar. That one's bigger that one's bigger. It's the same outside but Yeah this little hole in the middle, that one's bigger because that's er the right hand one to go over the grip, over the throttle, That one fit onto the bar. Did you do that? The hole in the side of my jeans is getting bigger so it is, have to sew it up. getting bigger too. Ah ha ha ha ha ha So when are you, when are you gonna put the undercoat on that like? Oh aye. Do you want me to do it now? Pardon? Do you want me to do it? Oh well you do it, I'll only muck it up. If you want to do it you can do it. No you can do it so it can be done good. No I couldn't do that there, it takes a genius to do that. Put the put your brush where your mouth is. be quite awkward. Have you got a day off too? Eh? Have you got a day off as well? And he phoned, and he phoned the pub this afternoon and he says I'm not coming in to work tonight. What are you gonna do? I'm gonna eat my dinner. You should have seen what I ate last night! Oh God! Oh aye. There was me and Taff and Norma and Fred and Colin and Maud went to Go on. the Lychee House in Ba the Lychee House in Banbridge That's it, you're alright. Right ? Yeah it's alright, nobody knows who says these things. And Yeah. and er Taff had, what was it? What did you have? and shredded beef. shredded beef and That's what, that's what's happened And he had a banana split for pudding and he had soup for starters, right? And then I had, what did I have? I had deep fried duck with orange sauce and fried lice and I had Fried lice? Fried lice. Fried rice Fried lice and I had chicken and sweetcorn soup for starters and who was it? Colin and Maud had the same as me Yeah. Norma had the same as Taff, what did Fred have? He had huge big prawns He had king prawn chow mein. Ch king prawn chow mein with the noodles and stuff and he had whip marks all over him but anyway I ate all that and I didn't have a sweet,, didn't have a sweet and I we went out for a while and on the way home Eh? Yeah. On the way home me and Maud got chicken Maud and I got chicken burgers right? With the whole works in it. Norma got a huge big chip with chicken dip and then we brought Fred back something to eat as well, we were starving, and I got home last night and I was gonna make myself a sandwich but mummy-in-law was in bed so I says och I'll just go to bed myself. I was starving yesterday! It must go right down to your boots. I think it does somehow. Sticks round my arse though Well where's I'm switching it off. Good. Er that and those are what I got that's what I got with those and they're with the parcels di in that envelope so That was to send the catalogue back er the other one Er doing a lot of sorting. Yeah. That's the travel agency isn't it? Pardon? That's the travel agency things, I'll put them on there to sort out to throw away. Can you, can you think where that came from, that book? Pardon? Do you know where that came from that book? Was it in the post? It probably came in the post but I don't know where from. Who from. John Moores, they've cut prices. Oh. gonna be er John Moores have come from and they've cut prices. Oh. Right. Wonder if they th say that that's the er Said what? the you know they've, I'm supposed to have received the summer, spring and summer catalogue from them I haven't, I wonder if that's supposed to be it. Mm. That's Costcutters. Oh. These er return labels weren't in that when you lent it to John, to take over there? No I erm no I hadn't got any labels in it then. Excuse me Yeah I will give him a ring to save him going out this afternoon . I'm Eh? gonna go through that lot, you know, and throw out all what's not necessary in that erm magazine rack. and there's one in there This is January savers and there's another catalogue. Mm? Another catalogue return book there. Yeah. I don't know how long that they were supposed to last for. Pardon? I don't know how long that Telegraph was supposed to last for. Only those come through the door Telegraph thing they come through the door Yeah So what's ? Well we've had it a long time don't know how long it lasts. I don't know, you can look at the old Telegraph and see if it's , the Telegraph I got on Thursday night or Friday night Oh. and see if there's anything in there. Mhm. Mm? I've got one of those, there Kay's return book. Oh, no Yeah that's Kay's Yeah I'm gonna throw all that out. but you should have got the same thing from them. Yeah, oh all I got was that book with a statement, statement book. You got a statement book? A statement book, yes, Yes you've got a statement book Yeah. but you haven't got a return book. No I know, I'm just saying that all they sent was a, a statement book. Yeah that's what I'm saying also. I'll phone them up. Er well I don't know actually. That's statement. Well this is a statement that, that you get er what sales there are. Did you hear the er birds this morning? Birds? Yeah. No. Oh they were kicking up an awful fuss and I thought to myself now a cat's tearing one to pieces, that's the way it, what it sounded like, or two and they were, I couldn't see quite out of the window but they were making a fuss on the wall by Diane's Yeah. and I thought to myself that blooming cat's after them and er it kept on for a long time and then, so I opened the window and looked out a big black cat was here where's the big black cat coming from? Dunno I haven't seen Yeah a big, big black one well it looked black in it was in the early hours of this morning, you know, when the birds start flying about. Yeah well there was a big er dark grey one comes from over there. Well it might be dark grey, could be Mm. but it looked black from up there, so I er opened the window and rattled the venetian blind and I thought you'd've heard that erm and it shot out there, whether it went underneath the gate, can they get through under the gate? No they go over the top. Oh I didn't see it up onto the little pillar there and Oh, I didn't see him go up at all. The only part I could You may not have seen Aha. Aha. So he, but he shot as soon as that window opened. Yeah. They know they're doing wrong you know. Don't they? Yeah. Well it was, it might, could've been dark grey Yeah but i No I'm a nuisance. I'm a nuisance. I er say to myself why do I take some of these jobs. These are quite specialist jobs, you know? Mhm. And why do I take them on. But you know, it's more than I know. Now, with the greatest of pleasure okay, with the greatest of pleasure Ah well, it's only those few I mean I Well I'm giving it to you. I'm giving it to you. I rang I'm false my boss. false pretences, no. No, oh no no. I couldn't see yous false pretences, okay? Well I, it is really cos I d Oh no, no. No I wasn't able to do too much Well I think I think your age they wanted an over sixty. And I think an over sixty no matter who they are, they would still just have a small return. Yeah Because you don't talk that much. I'm thinking No. of my own father who lives alone. Aha. You know? Only for us going in and out you know? In and out yes. And of course They wanted certain age groups. Mhm. And they wanted a pl a sixty plus. So with the greatest of pleasure. That looks very With the greatest of pleasure. That looks Thank you very much. Thank you very much indeed. That looks very nice. Does look nice? Yes . Er my one of my respondents What's the picture of? Aha. Oh I don't know. Er I'm more in more interested in countryside. I we right. What was I going to say? One of the respondents turned it over and read it and said oh well you could put that in the wine shop. You could spend it in the wine shop. Oh dear. Oh no. Did you fill me that in? Did you fill me that booklet? Yes. Good for you. Yeah. Oh I would think so. Yes. Can I ask these few? Now you had, you've used three tapes. I'm gonna put three, right? That's right. Mhm. Right. Now firstly, thinking about is it going? I shall hear the pip going off. Right. Yes it's going. Er is that where you talk And into erm where where is the? There it is. Ah yes, right. Er okay, firstly thinking about the experience of recording your conversat conversation using the personal stereo and filling in the booklet, how did you find th this in general? How did you find it? Oh, alright. Anything else? Erm no. Interesting. Right. Wh what makes you say that? Interesting. Erm Different I take it. Right, not every Well yeah Yes I I always liked good conversation. Yes. Right. And of course don't get a lot of it, but it was it was Right. Well right. I would So wish the boss would of come in even when I'm here. You know? Yeah. I'm not a hard woman to know. Oh I've got him on the tape Aha. Cos he's a lovely voice. He answered the phone to me. Yeah, yeah. He should have come in. He was on the tape. Yes. Good, good. He he did a lot. But it takes time. You have to be very erm Yes. My husband's like that, okay? My husband, I would be very outgoing diplomatic. Yes. Where George is very He was placid and very cool and Yeah. don't bother yourself Anne you know Yeah where I would headlong into the thing . He he's on the second one quite a bit. Good, good. That's lovely. Yeah. Well that's wonderful. He's on the one that I was annoyed when came back the last time and I thought oh my goodness I hope I haven't given that woman any annoyance. Oh no. No No right. No, oh right. not a bit. I annoy him. But he he don't like things put on to him so quickly. Right. He he A stranger coming in to the house that you've never seen before he don't grasp things course he is a very Yeah. very difficult one isn't it? Yeah, yeah. Well you know he's used to you know, dealing with people. My job is yes. My job is very unusual in some circumstances. Yeah, yeah. It must be, yeah. I'm doing Cos you've got to be always Right. Do you're dealing with everything. All kinds. Yes. But general public in Northern Ireland are very nice. You know? Yes. They're responsive to you Yes. in their answering. I'm doing a very high-falluting one for Professor Peter on his sexual attitude. Sexual Oh. I've been ask all their sexual attitudes Have you? you know? And it's nice you know, and I was brought up so narrow minded. You know a presbyterian background . Yes, yes. Mother never talked about sex . Well you daren't dare you? But erm d'you know what I was going to do this morning? If I'd Right? have had the whole day. Yes. I wouldn't have been back in time. Right. But the opera house opens Yes. tonight Right. Are you going? With no. No. No no you're not. with the er it's the first aft since the bombing. Right. And the Shakespeare from Oh on the radio is this? Shakespeare company from Yes. England is performing Right. Performing tonight. Yes. The first, it will be the first opening. Yes. Well my school days Right. my headmistress was the president of the Shakes Shakespeare league. Right, right. And she'd got, we was always very interested I played Puck in Midsummer's Night's Dream at school and all that kind of thing. Right, yes. And I was go might have gone to to Belfast today to meet John's sister. Yeah. And I was gonna go into the Yes. opera house and ask them Why don't you? would they mind Yes? answering a few questions for me. Yes. And I would have had me tape on. Right. Right. Yes. And I don't s and there would have been people from Yes. all different areas. Right. Stratford upon Avon and different areas. I suppose now in a way, a strange woman like me coming in. See I never find myself strange. I'm constantly surveying for everybody Yeah. that you could imagine. And Mhm. I don't see myself, but I'm sure I strange man might wonder what is this woman? And then I rang back again you see What?oh. and that reassured you, you know? You know? That yeah. Yeah. Aha yeah . Aha Aha Oh he he, he wouldn't Aha. er once he'd got, he don't like things pu put Yes. to him very quickly. He's slow on accepting things. Yes. But when he does he's the best. I'm a bit slow on accepting er er myself really. Yes. Yeah, he's he's the best. Especially if it in involved him. Yeah. If it involved him. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Didn't care what I did. Right. Yes. But I'm sure He knows that would have been alright you know? to for it to be genuine But he's he's great otherwise. to be genuine, I'm sure that was hard to know whether I was genuine or not. Oh I don't think, no, no that was his att I hope I didn't ru that was his att that would have been his attitude Right. Yeah. with anything at all. Even see we've got the grandson over for the Yeah. start of the holidays. Right. That's why I keep this on because there are Yeah. umpteen children he brings in and they have Right. paints and goodness knows what. Right. Well that's And they started ruining Yes, aha the table, but er tut there was only a few things that we would Okay. It's for Yeah. working and living with. That's right. I always think I should have wrote written a book Oh your about my kitchen table. I need my children to be writing and Well write a book about a table. eating. Oh yes I I'm, yes aha. I'm very keen on writing a book. So am I. Yes aha. Under, I have a book under the bed . That I don't let on. And I'm a very bad housekeeper. Oh good for you. I when I see him when I see, George does a lot of housekeeping when I see him clearing the bed I say oh goodness look book. Yeah. I don't want anyone to see it. In my older day, okay, I'll write a book. Yeah. Very much so, yeah. Well I always have, and my mum's always said to me why ever don't you sit down Yes. and write books because during the raids Yes. in the war Yes. erm we used to, all the little kiddies used to come to ours. Right. We had a big shelter Yes. in the garden. Yes. This is from somewhere Under, underground in England er okay? Mm. Yes, aha. Well we had them here you know? Y yes. Yes. And er all the kids would come Yes. as long as they were coming to me Yes. Right. they would, they would come in. Didn't matter where their parents went, they'd be in. Right. You had the motherly touch. And I'd let them t take turns in choosing Yes. Yes. whatever. Yes. This was at like bed time. Yes. Some like you said would, that's what reminded me, would choose something like a chair, or Right . Yes. To write about a slipper. okay? Yes. Or or an animal. Right. And whatever each one chose I would go off and tell them the loveliest sort of Stories. bed time st I could make up D'you know that er a stories Yes. of it. D'you know that in Northern Ireland we have people who, who, who lived up history like that. You know? Mhm. Where my father was concer would be concerned, he he was in farming and, when the war come on, he brought the evacuees out of Belfast. You know? Mm. And that's a wee part of history that very few would know about. That's right. And like yourself. Yes. You know? Oh yes, you could tell them Let me ask right. A few more Yeah, yeah. of these. Er right. So you always like conversation and in general you would like to speak. Isn't that right? Mhm. Generally erm I would like to speak. I'll just take this er rough and then I can edit it. Right. Now this one here was thinking about the conversation you didn't record. Well, well I'll just say er at the beginning er it just didn't erm Oh someone I was talking to er didn't want me to record them. At the beginning I'll say that. You know? Just er er why we had only three, right? Mhm. Did anyone you spoke to during the time that you recorded objected? No. No Eileen. No Sure there wasn't? No. No. Oh I will call you Eileen! Yeah Now. I need to know these things here just for erm wait and I'll read it. There are a number of things that might aff affect the way in which you speak and how we use our language in everyday conversation. Such as where we live er where we went to school, what hobbies and interests we have and so on. So I would like to move on to ask a few questions about er where you lived in the past. Firstly, where were you born? London. London. T the city of London? Mhm. Any particular er part? Er No? Fulham. Right. Thought Fulham or Putney. Fulham. Or or Putney. And in which town er and country er did you er go to school? Primary school in Fulham? Er there weren't primary school then. There was just the infants and then you passed a scholarship and went to Right. So you would have went still right. They weren't grammar schools. They were called c central schools Right. but er equivalent to a grammar school. So in your primary school days you would have went to er still Fulham? No. No we'd moved, moved by then. Where did you move to? Er Clapham Junction. C L A? C L A P H A M Aye. Junction. Where where they've been bombing it I surveyed in Clapham Junction. I did. Mm? Oh. I surveyed er last year. Did you? I was over in Clapham. Yeah, aha. Doing Oh. I went there on a memory trip but there's nowhere Right. standing that Well it's very nice. And er er er that, that I knew of, you know? Clapham Common. Is that right? Clapham Common? Yeah. Clapham Common. That's where er Fer Fergie used to live. Oh She had her flat there. What about your secondary school? Did you go still there? Not well it was in, in Bat in Battersea. Yes, near there. Battersea? Spell that? Er Battersea. Spell it. B A double T E R S E A. E A. And is that in Clapham Junction? No no. No. That well a part Where's that? part of Clap Well it was in erm near just outside Battersea Park. Ah. Right. Outside And it was called the Right? Oh for goodness sake now Is Battersea It was a kind of c a college. Is Battersea er a town as we would know Lurgan? Well it's a borough. Yes. Yes. That's right. And er ha has it a county? County something? Essex? Essex. Essex. And would er er Clapham Junction be in Essex? Mhm. Right. Is that a county? Yeah. Yeah. Right. I don't know my geography. Yeah. How long did you live there, at Battersea? How long where you there? Oh How many years? Until you were maybe in your teens? was married. Ah. Er about twenty? Yeah. Right . That's how long you lived there? About twenty. Have you ever lived in any other place three years or more since leaving school? I mean, in a different town. Not just a different address. So after Yes. Yes. Where? Mhm. Right. Okay. Where would you have lived? Er That would have been your early marriage, right? Now yeah. When you got married where did you live? Well that would have been in erm oh tut Yeah. Near Saint Bartholomew's Hospital. Where? Covent Garden . I should know I don't know if that's in Covent Garden? Yeah. Near Covent Garden. Anywhere else? Where's Covent Garden? Is it London London. London. Is it county like Ce central London. Central London. That is London, yeah. Central London, right. Covent Garden. I hope d'you know D'you know your Northern Ireland geography? Cos I don't know my English geography. Oh I know, know quite a bit of it. Yeah. Right. Er anywhere else? No? Oh. Well from there? Yeah. Erm that's where I first got married. Right. Mustn't speak about businesses? N oh it doesn't matter. Oh it doesn't matter. Oh No. Oh we was It's just the words they're after you see. Ah. Just words. We were licensed victuallers then. Right. And were would you have been? Where, where would that have been? In erm Islington. Oh, right. The famous Angel Islington. It's almost the first pub I ever had. Right. And anywhere else? Anywhere else? Oh, what from then? Yes. Onwards? Yes. Er from Islington? Islington is still London? Yes. Yes. But not central London? Well near enough, yes. Is it? Is it? Right. Right. More towards the east end end but Right. Erm oh where did we go from there? Kings Cross. Right. Er that's all part of of London. outer London they call it don't they? Right. Greater London they call it now. Ah, Greater London. Greater London. From Kings Cross Not not Central London okay? No. No. No. Greater London. Greater London. Right. Erm Anywhere besides London? Yeah, I'm just trying to think cos I I can miss two, I was just gonna say, miss two things from It doesn't matter yes, aha. there. Right. But that, that's fine. Yes, Dagenham. Essex. Spell that. D A G E N Oh Dagenham? Mhm. Right. D A G E N H A M. Dagenham. That's London. No, that's Essex. Oh that's Essex. That's in the country. Right. And where from there? Where from England then? Was this your first hop across? No. Erm er Dagenham to Lyme Regis, Dorset. Dorset. Right. Where Jane Austen wrote all her novels. That's right. That's right. Erm Lyme Regis, Dorset and from there to er near Kidderminster, wait a minute. Stourport on Severn. Stourport? S T A S T O U R O U R Stourport Yeah? I don't speak so good cos I've got some teeth out and I've got to have Right. Is it the teeth that I part dentures in. left? No. No. No but er I think you're doing very well. I I can't get used to the new dentures Can't get your can't get your tongue round these . No. It's a lot of words. Right. So different. I notice it speaking into this. Reading. Out loud. You don't notice it when you're reading to yourself. Right. Right. Right. Right. What about from when was your hop across? From Stour Stourport. Nineteen fo oh now can't think. Er from Stourport to Armagh. Ah. To Armagh. Armagh. Nineteen sixty eight. And from Armagh to Craigavon? Yes. Right. That's alright. I'll And now we're here. We were put I'll put we were put here temporary because we had near enough all our valuables and furniture stolen in Armagh. They had five, five robbers Actually, Armagh City Armagh City? Yes, the city. Right right right. Ah I'm in Armagh tomorrow. Are you? Yes. Aha. I'm doing a Euro-barometer. A Euro-barometer's a lovely survey. It's taking your it's taking everyone's erm view sim simultaneously, right? Mhm. In Europe, right? And what you tell me and, again when your survey you'll take all age groups you see? And that goes all into a central bank and they'll find out what the Northern Ireland person is equivalent to the the French and the Spanish yeah. Yeah. and that's lovely. Aha. Nice, that's nice. But Oh. I never did one of these, right ? Let's see how this goes. Right. I'd like to now talk about ah your leisure time. Do you watch television? You surely do. Well yes. How long would you watch, okay? In the day. Per day. Would you watch it? Well well how long well I I choose which programmes I like Right. Oh yes that's right. on it. I like the nature things and Right. Would you watch it for three hours? Er er . Yes. Aha. Right. I suppose so. Yes. Yes. What what station, what channel would you watch most often? Erm Would it be our own? I T V? The well yes. Yes. Right. I prefer that one. Do you listen to the radio? I'm sure you do. Er, sometimes but mo Right. Right. mostly I have the erm tut my sp special tapes records Right. on of Right. Well well you would listen to the radio piano tape things. Right. W how, how how, what station would you listen to? Well n not, not a lot of radio now. No. No. No. No. D'you read a newspaper? Yes. What would you have read? I mean at least four issues a a er a week. So what would your popular paper be? Well it's not Would it be the local? Yeah, well the er national paper. Which one? And a Which one? The Sun. The Sun. But it wouldn't be the po most popular it's because of Right. because they advertise bingo in them Hope you're not re reading page three my girl . What about er would you, would you buy the local? Oh I expect John reads page page three. So does me Well, he wouldn't be natural if he didn't. Course he wouldn't. Goodness gracious. You don't want to make the man a fuddy- duddy do you? In in fact I open it out sometimes Yeah. and leave it there for him Right. in case he's missed it. If he, if he never does anything worse than that me girl he'll go alright . No he he's alright. There's no complaints there. You're You think I'm awful. No no no. W would you read the local paper? We have the Belfast Telegraph. Right. Ah the Belfast Oh no I was thinking of the No wait a minute. Right. The the erm Portadown News isn't it? Yes. Right. Yes aha. I was thinking more of that Or the Lurgan Mail. The Lurgan Mail I was thinking of. Yes. That's right. What about a Sunday paper, okay? Would you read a Sunday? Well that's that's the News of the World News of the World. That's a very popular paper you know, the News of the World. Aha. Yeah but it's a lot of lot of trash. Aha I know. I I I I check me po check me pools and that's all. I'm never sure what to When in Rome do as the Romans do okay for goodness sakes. What about any other? Would you read any other? No. No, right. No. Sometimes we read second hand papers. What about magazines? Would you read a magazine? No, I don't get m magazines. Any, no no no radio times, readers sports, women's magazines? Anything like that, no? No. D'you ever read er books? Well no, not well not for Not erm years I haven't. Right. Not not a book right. Years ago. Right. So it would have been you never read now. I, I'll skip there. No. Right. Erm my mam you know knows I talk too much okay you know. I'll say to them and I'll be away fifteen minutes then. What would you do, what would your leisure time you would listen to music? Yes. Anything else? Er well no just sitting What kind of music? Oh er Piano? piano conc Right. concertos you know, things Right, right. Right I've got all me records there. Anything else, anything else? Lovely lovely records. What else do you like to do? Er Do you garden? A bit here and there. So, yeah. Oh right. Yes. Oh yes, I like and I know quite a bit about gardening and the names of the Right. Do you in our house . I I like a garden. Do you like a garden? Right I'm I'm a coun I'm a country girl. Oh are you? Right. Mm. Oh you're a country woman? Mhm. I would have thought when you were talking Really. telling me about London and that . Yeah. you would have been maybe more a city woman. You're a country woman? Ooh I can't bear the cities. Can you not? Right. So I I I can't bear four walls. Right. You like to be out. Out where there's green and everything. D'you walk? Do you walk? Oh yes. Walk, walk a lot. Yes so walk. Yes. Yeah. Walking. When I can . When I can now. You like to conversate don't you? Yes. With Eileen and er Yes. Oh yeah. Yes. Yes you like to conversate . Och I think it was too much on Eileen. I think she's too many problems and one thing or another so I just, I just I feel awful sorry for her. Yes. I just er petered out. She tried. She did very well you know? I petered out. I I I I I don't know what to do I have to ask my boss tomorrow again you know? But I think she'll need to do more than one, you know? Yes. She had you would need to do more . Well she's only just gone back tonight. Aha. Right. She'd been home, I didn't know. You know I think she has problems and look, I'm only in for But she surveying and no, I don't want to know Yeah. Yeah. your business, you know? But she loves to co she was over here Yes. Oh yes. and she had a laugh and she's great. Yes. Aha. I go and visit her. Right. Right. I I thought And we have a chat there, you know? that maybe it was too much and I just eased out. You know Yeah. I would ease back. If I thought it was too much I'd ease back. Yeah. Well it And I think some you win, some you lose. No she she she she enjoyed it. At the beginning Yes. cos she did three tapes. Both sides. Yes but th w th w there was none she hadn't pressed a button at the back. Oh no. That's right. But she chatted and chatted. Right. But you see since then Yes. nobody's been in. Right. The family been in and out Right. but she's still been on her own. So I get on with her and try and help her. Right. That's right yeah. But she's gone back tonight. Yes. And she's, that was tonight she said she's hoping to be home Thursday. Right. And they're gonna let her stay home for . Right. Right. A friend in need. I just came Of course she's at the wrong time I think. There was a crisis. She talked about the, one of the girls or something and Yes. I'm I'm waiting for the Yes. er little one to to see her because I said to Andrew I I'll just back off. He said it doesn't matter Anne, about the money and I just eased off and Yeah. didn't go back you know? You know well, what can you do when she No that's right. She, with the little one she's er er told her Yes. she's gonna come over and see me. I told her that while her mum's away if she's got problems just to Right. Yes. come over to me and talk about them. Right. Because she's heading for trouble . Yeah. That's what I said And Eileen gets somebody phones up Eileen Yes. and tells her about it. Aha. Of what time she comes in. Yeah, aha. And she's only eleven you see. And it's an awful worry. I I causing you problems then I'm only in for surveying Yeah, yeah. and nothing else and I didn't want to get involved. No. Yes or no, okay? Don't be polite to me, right? If we were carrying out, no well I always need to get right. If we were carrying out a similar survey in the future, recording conversations, would you be willing to take part? Yes or no? Yes. That's alright. I cannot force. I'm Yeah. taught not to force, you know? That's why Yeah. That's okay. when I'd seen there was a problem there, then I just Yes. No, it wa wasn't a good time. No, not for her. No. I came in at yes. I came out at at the wrong time. Yeah. It will take her some time He was nice. Yeah. He was lovely and he was nice but it was just the, the wrong thing was judged, right. But er and she'll be alright eventually. And she's Oh yes. she's she's great. Take time. Oh yes. Take time. Take time. She's a great person. I've had a I've had a I've had a She thinks so much of her family. Yeah. I've had maybe too much you know? Yeah. I had a sister er we, we had a sister schizophrenic. So Mm you have to live and you know. Oh yes. And I could have seen like You've got to see people their side. Yes, yes. That's why I thought, when I come back the next time and you're upset I said oh no way do I want to upset a woman like that. Oh Oh no, no I wasn't upset. I was just speaking frank about it. Oh yes, I like to talk frank. Oh no. No, oh no. It er it would take a lot Did you have that book? Yes. Did you have that book at hand? I've got them, I've got them over there. Right. Right. Erm Oh, watch yourself there Oh crikey You're switched on! You're clicked on and I'm going in behind you. Give me it and I'll give me it and I'll just Right. Right. See, I've got it all here. Right. There's the booklets. Right. Can't see a thing er without my glasses. Right. Oh and you have it filled in. That's And I I er put, I I I'll put this, put this one in. Put, put number three. Those are the two, right. That's the two. Right. D'you want them put into this box? Yes they go all just go into the box. They all just go back er er okay? They all just go back. well I kept them out just in case. Right. Right. And then the three'll have to go, go down in between. Right. Then it's finished with. And Aha. Keep I'll take all this No you keep all that paraphernalia but give me that. Keep that. Yes. Okay. Give me that bag. And thank you very much okay er I think you did extremely well, you know? Well I would have done, I would have done I think. Er you would have like it, what's your is I would have done better if I'd have had more time. Isn't that what life's about? But you want to hear my family. Pardon me? none of my family, only my one daughter. Right, right. But if we'd been my family Right. You'd have plenty of conversation. They all gosh they they they would have really they would have all had a go. They would all all This is life you know okay. Life is never perfect. No. No. And the older you get, and you should know that you just take the nice bits out of life. I think the older you get you're the better of it. Well that's why I try to tell the kids the kiddies. Yes? Make each day as pleasant as you can Oh yes. because it's the pleasant times that you remember. Yes. Aha. It's like your childhood. You see, you see a lot of bad at times. That's right. But you pass them by. That's right. I mean you're looking back on your childhood, you always think of your childhood being sunny days. All the pl pleasant Isn't that right? That's right. Isn't that right? That's right. That's right. Er that's still going you know. Yes. I'll put those in that bag. There's have you got a Have I, there is a bag here. I left these over. Oh right. There is a bag. Now there's those batteries. Right. Right. I've had two. That's alright. That's fine. Two from there I would say it's all present and correct. that's, that's new. That's right. Those these are new. Th those are the two that you put in. Right. Are those Finished. are those finished? They were finished. Right. Right. So I'll pop the two new ones in there. Yes. But these I tried, but they'd they'd been used. Oh. That's un And strapped down. That's unusual. Well no light comes on. Right. Well, that's fine. So I did a ha one side of a tape Right. with them on and it was no good. Right. Cos I thought I had done it. That's nice that's nice to know. You know. That's nice to know. That was and and those are all, those are all done then? I think so. How, this is how they just came back to me so Yeah. that's er that's fine. Right, so they're Can I get you to fill in that conversation. Just, just myself and, and you. And er er filled in that you see? Right. I would There. Just yourself. And and myself. Now look, look. You see, isn't that, isn't that almost finished? Yeah. Is it? Is it? Yeah. okay. Is that almost finished? Yes. Mhm Where are you? Which way does that go? I'll switch it off shall I? No, no. no. Keep it on. Oh we'll soon switch it on again. When my mother was young she was down there. And she gave the school, no she gave them did that much, that they brought for here school books, and she finished her education in . And if I mind right I think it was some kind of relational that used to e in the bank, that was a teacher there. And then she they they lived in Stummerslake she was born in Greamsee What size of a school would there have been in Oh it would have been half as small, and she used to tell us grand stories with them setting off in the morning with their a bottle of milk and their , it's like a pi with them, to keep the fire going to keep them warm and everything. Oh what grand stories she did tell. And what was it like as a small bairn Pharay then? Well she thoroughly enjoyed the life, in fact right up, oh till nearly the end she spoke about Pharay and as long as she was able she used to go and she imagined she could see it better with the spy glasses. She loved Pharay, she loved the country she loved the people. And they were half a good smile, and they did not tell who's ninety two. Mhm. And what was it like for for a bairn on on Pharay? Oh I think that the well more or less kind of like what it'll be when we were young. They made their own amusements, and she learnt to knit and they had long winter nights round the fire o and they used to go She used to call it, we used to go after day set, that she called evening. And they'd visit one another and take their knitting with them and sit and yarn, and that was all the enjoyment. I don't Never heard her speaking very much about games. But oh she was perfectly happy there. How many were at the school? I don't ken. It wouldn't have be so a great number. How big is Pharay? Oh God, I don't ken. I have no idea. It's not that big. Would there have been maybe about How many houses? Maybe about a dozen houses, I don't ken. I have visited the house that my mother stayed at, er called the North House Aye, it was just a pretty bit of a But and beam What did the folk do? Well they crofted in small way I suppose, and went the fishing. And they had what they called a floating shop, you know just a bit of a s a boat that came, Oh I think it was once a week, and they used to go and get supplies off of it. Aha. Oh no, she loved the life in Pharay. Mhm. And you've always lived in Stromness? All my days and hope I finish it here. All me days. Can't understand what families want to go away at all. What was Stromness like when you small? Oh it was super. It was quiet, but there was different things that amused us that the bairns would just laugh at today, I mean, there was no pictures or things like that. That we'd go to the shore, and we'd spend a whole day there, no lemonade and biscuits then. A bottle of water or a pale of water and maybe maybe biscuits, I don't ken, and we had different games, and there was a a game. like those certain games that you played at certain seasons of the year. Like maybe now about this time of the year we would start with skipping, and then in the winter time, we well there was has a lot of , we would just seem to amuse ourselves. We Peedie concerts and things like that. And Oh me mother was good. She would read and everything else, and there was nine of us children had that much time, but we had a very happy childhood in lots of ways. They did not have electricity, it would be oil lamps and some of them I cannot mind when gas would come. But it would be old lamps and Peedie bits of and when you speak about long ago times I associate the smell of paraffin and sawdust and cooking apples and all that you go into Peedie shops and there was a fine relationship, you go in and Well I used to be for the old folk and they were all awful good to me, and the particular and we used to go every Saturday night to a shop called Blacks and it stayed open till nine o'clock. But there was Oh what to me seemed, in that days, to be oh awful grand shops for baking and what not. Folk would not look at it nowadays. been a kind of peedie that's indust industrious and what not. And it was basically long ago in the Well in me mother's day, there was the herring fishing, it was a busy time then. Was your mother involved in that? Well not in the herring fishing but er there was also a a salt fish kind of processing place out in the Hens And me mother work at it and she used to tell us about I supposed they'll be not rubber boats in that d days. Or the protective that we have now, and they would have sometimes have to weigh the whole . And send a whole day with , and it never hurt them. And then in the herring fishing time, oh it was very busy right enough, and you see they did they did no fish on a Sunday and they would come in on a Saturday night. And me mother used to say y you could you could have walked from the point of Ness, to the pier, how were the boats were that tightly packed in. And I remember herring fishing in me young days. It was the it was boats in me mother's day, of course then the drafters was . Anyhow it was like the sea and boats and everything else and I used to I was working in a shop and I use to get up early in the morning and go down and tally all the numbers and names of the boats and and there was an old man came in to shop while I was working in and asked about a certain boat, I says oh I can tell you,trek down . And I give him the whole book what lists names and numbers and what not. And I got a great big box of chocolates of him. Oh Well I always loved the sea, i don't think I could live without seeing the sea. You said your mother could walk across? Well when the tide was low, they would walk for the outer homes, then their hens and back again. And sometimes it would be a good of water you see, and they would get their feet wet. You can still walk across it low tide. I've done it myself when I was young. What kind of a job did you do then? What what white fish was it? It would be cod and ling and maybe haddock, I don't ken. Just what salt fish you had. And who was processing them? Well if I mind right, I think my mother used to speak about man,, that had this fish curing station over at the hens And did he employ fisherman to fish for him? Maybe the local fisherman did, where he got the fish I could not say. Or it might have been a bigger concern than I ken. And maybe he had other outside boats took fish to them too. But me old mother certainly spoke a lot about this and the and the salt fish. How did they cure them? What what kind of a job was it? They would salt them down and let them lie in the brine for a while and they would take them out and dry them. What way they dried them, whether it was in the sun or if they'd anything to dry them with, I don't ken. But they made a great thing with the salt fish. It must have been awful bad in the hens Mhm. I don't think they would have rubber gloves or any in that days. It was the same with the herring gutters that was here, I mind them working on the pier down here, and they all had their fingers tied up with Clotes There was the skill that work in this. Where did all the rest come from? Oh well they the North east a lot of them, if they all Oh my they would not do it nowadays. No. In all weathers the poor critters would be standing parking and what not. For very little money. What sort of hours did they have? They would start in the morning er I would say maybe eight o'clock, I dunno maybe sooner. And they'd still be working well on after s What we call tea time. And what about your mother, when she worked at the the white fish station? Well i think she'd go off early in the morning and then would come home about teatime. they'd take a piece with them and that was all they had to sustain them the whole day. Oh it was hard hard times. It's a wonder that they were as fit as they were. I would only been six or seven when the war started. It started in nineteen fourteen. First I mind about it was the first zeppelin that came over. Great big thing like a huge balloon and lived out at Ness and I mind me mother coming and getting us early and this great big thing come over. Who was in it? Why it be Germans. What were they doing? Reconnoitring about the fleet likely. That was the bigger threat The big thing that brought them to Orkney. It was not I suppose for anything other than the Flow that they came up as far as Orkney. Do you remember the British warships being in the flow in the first ? Oh yes. When they would come in there would be like a all lit up, beacon. What were the bairns told at school about the war? Oh we Oh I suppose we were told about the war but being young and heedless we would not take it all in. I was ten when we could . And all I ken was that we got word that there was to be a school trip and that we were leaving I forget what tie in the morning, and going down to see the German ships. Did you know about the fact that they'd been captured? No, I did not realize it. And I was only one out the family of nine that volunteered to go and none of me brothers or none of them that was all keen on the sea, they did not seem to want to go. And I went. I dunno it was arranged but it was a a small water boat that took us down, the Flying Kestrel. Oh we left and oh we were all excited about going on what a great big boat and it was in fact only a small water boat. And we were all enjoying it and looking forward to going to see this big ships and whatnot. Sailing along quite the thing and we were right down I dunno how far, if we were right in the middle of them or just on the edge of them, but we were not far from them. When there was a sense of unrest and what not, and then first one ship then the other, starts shuddering but before that happened we saw Germans coming off in the rafts and that. Some of them swimming in the sea and whatnot. I was terrified. And then the the ships shuddered and and some would go down by the stern and others would topple up and they'd be great fountains of water. By his time I was terrified and I don't ever be so and our teacher took us down below and tried to play games my mind I distinctly howling my . And eventually we got they were frightened you see, that the suction of the boats going down would pull the the water boat under. So we turned and came back and oh it was grand. We got a grand welcome home. Did nobody have any idea what was going on at the time? I don't suppose No they wouldn't have any warning about this going to happen or they would never have taking a lot of bairns down among it. It was just very spontaneous surely. But they had it very well arranged, the Germans did. But there was a big loss of life as well, but what frightened me was this Germans coming over on Peedie bits of rafts and the men swimming in the sea and whatnot Were you frightened because it was Germans? Yes. I was terrified of the Germans. Well what did you think they were going to do? Well i had no idea. Maybe come and kill us or something like that. I did not ken . I was just terrified out me wits. When our people what was going on and one thing and another. But I As I say I were young and I wouldn't have been paying particular attention. But oh we were told about the war and what was happening between the Germans and whatnot. And did you think that the Germans were were bad or? Oh yes very bad. Well there was lots of families you see that had their boys and men and sweethearts and all at the front it was a sad time. People that you knew, you know, getting wires and that to say that their menfolk had either been killed or were missing or some like that. That sticks out in my mind. But our family was too young to me in the war like me brother. In What I mind of the last war it was too busy then. Very very hectic. I forget how many troops were here. But we lived near a battery, we lived out at Whale Park And when they they deciding give the Elizabeth was just a baby then and I used to grab Elizabeth and go in the bed and the d down quilt and the pillows on top of us and lie tight and send you until the was in the sitting room and the search light follow the plane was at The plane was that near the house that the searchlight come right into the window, and the next I ken was the bullets ricocheting off the roof. Where did the bullets come? The German plane that the searchlight was following. It was a German plane coming over. And the searchlights the the battery that we were The camp that we were near, they opened fire and the battery would open fire at that, and the searchlight anyway came in through the window. It was not a very fine experience. Were there a lot of air raids at that time? Oh well there was quite a lot of warnings and whatnot but er on the whole there was a lot but no more than any other place. But oh it was busy busy then. Where did all the troops stay? There was some of them billeted in private houses, and we just had a two r bedroom house out at Whale Park a Peedie bungalow. And you were If you had a spare room you were all Well I think you were forced to take in troops and we had Elizabeth, a baby, and we had lodgers, nearly all the wartime. We kept two at a time, sometimes one and not what not. And then there was the were staying our, the Stromness and the commercial and and that. And the distillery and then, of course, there was camps at the Belt What about amusements? Well speaking personally I had plenty of amusement butt here was pictures and there was mess dos and parties and what not. Oh it was a gay life. Right so erm. You you're the manager of erm the Building Society in ? Yes. Erm how long has this branch been in ? we opened end of nineteen eighty, so just over six years now. Mhm. And very successful it's been too. Mhm. Very pleased to be here. And the performance, both at this branch and as a spin off, our city centre branch in Street, which has benefited from us being here, and the contacts we m we've made while been here. Excellent. Mhm. Very pleased. What you know when when a building society is you know when it when a new branch is opened up. Erm you know, some people would say you know, er seeing the kind of publicity that has had, that it would be it might be quite risky to er to o open the business of a building society here. Erm so what kind of what kind of research goes into into erm choosing where to actually site one? Well we had we had to look into it very carefully. We looked into this are in terms of the population here. The potential we could receive here, erm the kind of people who live here, the numbers of people who live here now and in the future, the types of housing and housing again, in the future and all in all a g a great deal of study went into the area. Mhm. And in the end we decided to open here. There was three main reasons. Firstly there are there were no other building societies here anyway. Mhm. So we we've cornered the market as it were. No real competition there. Er secondly we've got a link with , the large tobacco factory. Group savings schemes and such like which have been in existence for many years. And with the factory being so close, it would offer them a service, by being closer to them, and improve our links. And thirdly related to that point, with there were a lot of existing members in this area anyway. So it seemed sensible to move into this area, take advantage of that for ourselves, and provide them with a better service. And again that has proved successful. Mhm. So this is an example of erm a business that which has moved to and done very very well. Very well indeed, yes. We're very pleased. very successful. Mhm. In terms of local people, erm have you got many local people who are customers? Yes. In the su around about this area, the the local housing estates, a great many of our investing members just live practically round the corner, so we get to know them very well. For the mortgage side, we've got a lot of properties in the area that are mortgaged. But this particular branch has got a large area stretching out like , as far as . A lot of out mortgage business comes form the more outlying districts. i think it's fair to to say the majority of our investing members, just live round and about. Mhm. Again due to the local er schemes and such like. Got a lot of members from there. Which we see in very regularly. Mhm. The fact the fact that erm this branch is erm situated in a fairly disadvantaged erm area, erm does that have any implications at all? Or not? Erm I wouldn't think so w w it means that we have to get to know the the local clients very well indeed. We get to to know their problems better ad understand them better. We get to know them better. Which means we can provide a better service. It means we our staff are able to take more time er to understand and advise our clients which we need to do. Erm and there's no real problems because of the area I wouldn't think. Mhm. But er in fact it's probably an advantage because the people who come in are generally they're very friendly they're they've got a good spirit amongst themselves. And we find it's a warm friendly area which er a a poss possibly a bigger, more higher paced environment wouldn't get. mhm. Er. Yeah. So you're saying it actually has quite a lot of advantages ? Mm. Yes. Th th th th the people round here are excellent. Mhm. And there seems to be a good spirit around and Yeah we're we're very pleased to be here, you know . Mhm. We've found a lot of friendliness and warmth. How how does that co you spoke about friendliness and warmth here, How does it compare working with the other places you've worked at? Previously I've worked in city centre environments. Which I have enjoyed it's been er a bit of a challenge coming here because in the city centre, business-wise, you're surrounded by the professions such as estate agents and solicitors. And the membership, your investors had to actually make the effort to come to you. Whereas here the situation is reversed. Erm we're surrounded by the membership, and it's actually me which has to go out to visit the estate agents and solicitors and such like. But I found in the city centre, that er I did enjoy working there, but it it can be a bit of a cold and unfriendly place because it's so such a rapid pace of life. Mhm. Whereas here, you're still very busy, but er you have the membership just on your doorstep and you can get to meet them and know them a lot closer than you would when you're having er a large volume of people filing through your doors in the city centre. Mhm. if you you said you preferred to work here, you preferred working here to other places? I think I do yes yes. I I did enjoy going to the city centre, but so far er in the few months I've been in , I've enjoyed it tremendously yes. Mhm. When I s first spoke to you erm earlier I mean, like last week, erm you were telling me er something about erm the involvement that this branch has had with the local community. So what do you think about that? Yes with with the membership being on the doorstep, we do get to know them a lot better. Er we do have to get involved with the community and we just find ourselves drawn into the community without any real problems. We've been able to advise and help the the members. And enabled us to to be to be known throughout the local streets, the local shopkeepers and such like. So we find ourselves drawn in very easily. On a more specific nature we've sponsored a five-a-side football competition at the local Leisure Centre, for the last couple of years. Providing the trophies, getting to know the people involved, and getting publicity obviously for ourselves from that, which has been very rewarding, very enjoyable. Er we're involved in the local Carnival recently. Er had a stall there again, getting to know the people involved. Various other things, there's the local Day Centre. Which is a local centre for physically handicapped adults. We've got to know the the people who run the centre, fairly well. Erm helping out whenever we can. And helping them with advice as well. So all in all, yeah, we get we get involved with the community as much as possible. Both as a conscious decision, because of the business we do er need to be known around the area. And also for the enjoyment and personally, the the satisfaction you get, rather than going home at five o'clock and forgetting all about . Much rather be involved and I find it much more rewarding personally. Mhm. In terms of erm the fact that you've got f erm fairly sizeable ethnic minority population. Mm. Erm what kind of efforts have been made to get customers First of all we offer a good a service as possible, we try to get to know the individuals, and help them and give them individual advice. Erm I think that's ab the best that though we can get word of mouth, erm getting to know the individuals. Erm also w we've had several window displays er reflecting the local issues. Such as we had an exhibition of Afro Caribbean art,last year, from a local sender just up er Road a little bit. And that produced a lot of interest. From the local community. Had people coming in, they noticed that we aren't just a building there offering financial services, but we were actually interested again, in the local community. And the interest which bore out was was of great use. It wasn't the kind of display which we could have had in in a city centre environment, er but in this area, er it shows that we're receptive to people's needs and we care about what goes on. And it helped. The the individuals, the the members, to see that we we cared about what what their interests were. And they came in and chatted to us about it. Er it was very very pleasing. Mhm. Went very well. And it's something which we're doing again in the future. Mhm. With regard to the flats I mean, one o erm the flats have been up since the late sixties and erm now they're gonna be coming down. Mm. And they erm were a large area of housing in the local area. Erm what do you feel about the fact that those are gonna be coming down? I think the flats still have a stigma about them. They're a lot of the problems in tend to be directed towards or because of the flats. They're certainly a controversial issue. Erm so if they do come down, or when they do come down, I think it it will benefit the area, as long as something better is repl is there to replace them. Erm I think very many people live in the flats sort of thing, and and they're going to need rehousing. A lot of them are going out of the area, but I think er I'd imagine that a large majority or a a large proportion certainly would wish to stay in . And the first priority must be to find them suitable replacement housing. I've noticed in and , there's a lot of new town houses being built. New brick built standard sort of more traditional type housing, which are very attractive and appear to be very well built. And I think that could be the area, or the the type of development which could go on the flats. Mhm. Er the present flat site. Er new housing has to be a priority in this area I I should have I would think. And this type of more traditional housing er would be preferable. Mhm. n my in my mind. My opinion. Mhm. Going back to what you said earlier on on er on this question, erm you mentioned that erm the flats were subject to controversy. Mm. Erm what are the kind o obviously you've been here a few months. Mm. Erm what are the kind of comments that people have made to you about the flats? Concerning the flats? I mean how have they been seen by local mu community? How you know,w what kind of views do do people have ? Yes we have. A lot of a lot er of members who actually live in the flats, and all of our members practically know about the flats, and the the general impression is that they are a in a way a a a friendly and er a community type place. But they're they're very disadvantaged and they're a bit of an eyesore. Generally. So the impression which I get from the locals, is that they'll be happier when the flats are down. As long as they're replaced by something which is an improvement. Mhm. The general feeling is, Get the flats away and the place will improve. Mhm. And that generally comes form the flat owners which I've talked to meself. Mhm. Do you so you've got quite a f some customers from the flats ? Mm. Certainly, yes, some some people who live in the flats, come along to the branch quite regularly, and generally the the impression which they give me is that they'll they will be happier when they're the flats have been replaced. Mhm. you you personally would like some kind of hou some housing to be put there . Personally, yes, this isn't er a policy view but living in the ar or living around the area, working in this area, I think the area could be improved, if s the flats were replaced by something which looked more attractive. Because the don't look attractive. Mhm. And er they seem to be the cause of all the problems. If they could be improved by er sorry replaced by housing of a higher standard, erm generally made to look more attractive, landscaped and such like, then I think the area as a whole will improve and it'll attract people to the area. Mhm. Which I think should be er an important er an important idea in their minds. In the minds of the people who decide what's going to replace them with. Mhm. What about for local businesses, erm what do you think could be done to actually to attract more businesses to the area? I think the first thing is to improve the appearance, because the area itself appears to me to be to be thriving. There's a lot of larger shops, we've got Boots just over the road and er a lot er of good businesses round about. There's one or two empty shops, but they appear to be moving fairly quickly and getting taken over. So the important thing I would say, is just to improve the physical appearance. Because a lot of the shops and house fronts which the the bus routes are on, the main roads are on, do look tatty. And if they could be given a a better appearance, then the the people who see them, the people who drive through on th main road, such as Road and Boulevard, they could see that the area isn't as run down as often the medium makes it out to be. Erm to me it is a thriving and very good community, and all it really needs is to look as it's thriving. Mhm. Erm perhaps money could be spent on on face-lifting the areas, because a lot of the structures the s themselves seem very stable and sound. It's just the actual A lick of paint here and there basically and Mhm. Erm Other areas in which I've lived in I lived in the in an area in Hull, where the whole of this inner city area was revitalized simply by giving things new front doors and new gutters and drainage and tidying up the small gardens that there were, and providing things such as railings. This was all done by er a local authority grant. And the whole street was revitalized in a in a in a swoop. And that kind of thing on a perhaps a little larger scale, could work here I think. Mhm. Yeah that's quite interesting. That's an example having worked somewhere Mm. and er the response there and that Yes. works? How well did it work? That worked very well indeed er over a period of what twelve to eighteen months, the whole street, which was mainly residential, was brought up to standard up to a higher standard, simply by providing new fronts. Mhm. Erm th the the bits of the properties which people actually saw. And that produced a spin off effect, because the people who actually lived in properties or the shopkeepers in the properties, they could see that the outsides were improved, and that provided a spur for them to provide the insides. And it certainly got er the community spirit going and got everyone working together. Someone had given the impetus to sort the outside external improvements for starters, and that provided the spur to for them to do the internal work. And as a whole, the whole street was improved very quickly. Mhm. And it was very successful. I mean a do you think that kind of thing would work here? I think it could do. Yes. Erm as I say the the people here ha have got the spirit enough the they they're quite happy to to improve the area the they want to see the the area erm go up. There's a lot of pride in the area. And if they were given the opportunity or or and the impetus to to start to do something positive, I'm sure they would take that up. Mhm. Just talking about there about the people in the area. Mm. Erm how much community spirit have you found does exist? Very very much so. Erm perhaps the Since I came to the area about four months ago, the thing that I've noticed most is the people are very proud and they're very friendly, very open people. And s we get a mixture a large mixture of people coming to our office, because this type of area, we are a building society, er w w we see all manner of people coming in here, and the way in which the , they mix very well. Complete strangers come in start chatting to us and to each other, and the the as an area, it seems to pull everyone together. They realize that they have problems and but they seem so willing to stand by each other and the the spirit which I've noticed is very h May I have your attention please. The festivities will now start and I don't think I'm out of order at all if I asked all the Three-Ninetieth veterans to give a real round of applause to these beautiful British people have come, have come out this after this after th this afternoon. Thank you very much. Well now I have the principal speaker for the day. This is a gentleman who started out as a co-pilot in the Five-Seventieth squadron. He stayed the entire time. He ended up the Operations Officer. He has numerous awards and decorations crosses crosses, air medals et cetera. Richard H Dick Thank you. Er ladies and gentlemen and guests, I'm er very honoured an to be able to participate in this historic dedication. I want to first of all express our extreme pleasure for having the arrangements that were made by our good English friends, especially those associated with the Three-Ninetieth missile, well I'm sorry but I'll get that missile straightened out, Three-Ninetieth Memorial Air Museum. And I should also mention that this couldn't be possible without the generosity and help of Percy and a sincere thank you Percy. We former Three-Ninetieth er Bomb Group members er our relatives and guests appreciate the fine treatment we've been offered here in England er we love you all. We're very happy to be here and we're particularly pleased for you people from Parham, Framlingham, Ipswich and other locations joining us today and I would be negligent in not mentioning the fact that we have representatives here from the existing Three-Ninetieth strategic missile located in Tucsan, Arizona. This group is doing a commendable job and we are very proud of them. I could spend a great deal of time extolling the history of the two countries. Er we could talk about the customs, the English customs that have helped to er guide us as a rather new nation in our growth. I'm gonna leave that to the historians, so I won't bore you on that one. Where I could also spend a great deal of time talking about our common enemies, our mutual friends and some of the similarity and our aims for world peace and again, I'm gonna leave that for the statesmen and the politicians. Prior to getting around to the job I have to do, and that is to honour those men that gave their lives so that we could be free, I'd like to just share a few things with you as we return to this wonderful country. As I look around at this beautiful countryside I'm, my mind drifts back about forty years. And could I just ask you, just now, to take a minute and listen intently. What did you hear? You know it was rather quiet. I can remember and I think the rest of us from the Three-Ninetieth can remember when there were very little time when we had it this quiet. There was always that drone of aeroplane engines. They were either taking off, landing, forming in formation, going and coming from targets on the continent. And then we can remember when there was so many of the British aircraft going and coming. And some of us, I'm sure Percy can remember when we had enemy aircraft overhead. Isn't it wonderful to realize that when we hear that noise now it's because people are either flying for pleasure or business purposes. I hope that future generations will never have to suffer the, and endure the noise that we did for the same purpose. I was a rather young man, like many of the people in the Three-Ninetieth, that grew up rapidly at station one-fifty- three, Parham, England. We former Three- Ninetieth Bomb Group members are very, feel very fortunate to have served in this most impressive and best bomber unit in the Eighth Air Force during World War Two. And that last er apo er citation was authorized by Dutch or you can blame him if we aren't the best. During an, a very intensive training and organization period in the United States during the first half of nineteen forty three, and that does sound a long time ago, er we er the Three-Ninetieth Bomb Group, under the able direction of Colonel , er arrived at Parham, right here, in July nineteen forty three. We were assigned almost immediately to carry our share on such missions as , Hanover, Berlin and then there were those shallow missions to North Africa and, and of Russia. The record of the Three-Ninetieth was very impressive. We flew three hundred and one combat missions . From our photos, aerial photos and actual er on-site information, our bombs totalling about nineteen thousand tonnes, that's a little small for what you folks are dropping nowadays, Colonel but and General, we have don't wanna, don't wanna down trade you. We understand those bombs did tremendous damage on the targets that we were assigned. But er the group was credited with three, three hundred and seventy seven enemy aircraft destroyed, fifty seven probably destroyed and seventy seven damaged. This was by no means without losses. A hundred and forty five aircraft missing in action, another seventeen lost on the continent and in Europe. We will never forget this sacrifice. The group and the men associated with it were honoured with two unit citations, a thousand of individual medals and many decorations from allied countries. The aircraft we flew, the B-Seventeen Flying Fortress, was the best of its kind in its time. It was the Rolls Royce, Cadillac of its time and those of us who flew it knew of its ruggedness and its capability to do the daylight bombing . The success of the Three-Ninetieth was due to a great team moulded together by superb leadership. The team consisted of listed men, officers, air, ground people, all with one aim in mind, the success of our nations. Despite our successes there were sobering experiences. We lost, as I said, a hundred and sixty two aircraft, fifteen hundred and twenty three men, killed or missing in action. Many of these were prisoners of war or internees and er we're very happy to report that these got home after the war and we have many of them here today that were prisoners of war. We do appreciate those of you for that sacrifice. We can think of no more appropriate location for a memorial of this sight than on English soil in a country dedicated with America to the ideals of democracy and the freedom of mankind. This memorial er illustrates the close relationship of our two countries in the past, present and the future. It is very difficult to find the proper words to acknowledge the hard and dedicated work that went into the restoration of this control tower by the Three-Ninetieth Memorial Air Museum. We, the Three Hundred and Ninetieth Bomb Group members, are very proud of this effort. Colonel our form commander was not sure he would be here about a month ago and so he sent me a statement that I would like to read. I should mention that he is here with us and I'm sure you'll be hearing from him and his wife, Dorothy, and we're very happy to have you. This is the Co Colonel's statement and I think it is very appropriate. The reconstruction of our control tower and the field from which we flew so many missions, is a beautiful reminder and a lasting memorial to all the men in Three- Ninetieth. It is without doubt the most sincere, the most gracious and the most thoughtful living citation our English friends could possibly bestow upon us. The time, the effort and the loving dedication of those who conceived and carried through this project to completion make us, the Three-Ninetieth, sincerely grateful and humbly thankful to each and everyone of you, our friends . I've had this er framed and I hope it'll be mounted in the tower so future visitors will be able to see it. It's now time to dedicate the memorial plaque which will be located in the control tower. This plaque, this memorial plaque, is in honour of those men who gave their lives during this memorial, memorable period of history. We dedicate to them and all people who contributed to the success of this, never to be forgotten, Bomber Unit. God bless that their death was not in vain. Please could I ask for a moment's silence and look to the north er we wil where we will have a dedication fly past by A-Tens of the Eighty-First Tactical Fighter Wing. In the name of God the Father, creator of all mankind. In the name of Jesus Christ our Lord who died for all men. In the name of the Holy Spirit who leads all men to faith in the love of God. We dedicate this memorial to those of the Three Hundred and Ninetieth Bombardment Group who were stationed here in World War Two, gave their lives in the fight against tyranny. Amen . We will now call upon Mr Percy President of the Three- Ninetieth Bomber Group Memorial Air Museum. Thank you ve thank you very much, ladies and gentlemen. Er extend a very hearty welcome to the members of the Three- Ninetieth Group. It's been a long time since you left us, but you're more than welcome though on your return and don't be so long before you come again. Er I'm often asked what it was like to live in those eventful days and as Colonel just said well, you used to make an awful lot of noise. Er, but er most early morning and we got a little respite at the end of the day, but we were always welcome when we, when we saw the group returning again. We used to wonder, as they peeled off, how many are missing today? Unfortunately that empty but we had a little light entertainment when you first came here er especially the way you rode your bicycles er we, we sincerely hoped that you could fly your aeroplanes a little better than that. Erm that might, might interest you to know that during the past ten years I have personally entertained something like a hundred visitors from the States who are with their families er, of course, er returned here for a look, look round. Erm I'm thinking that some of them are going to forgive me if I, I say welcome again to you. Er now the, the field itself. You'll, you'll see, I'm talking to the Three-Nineties, er you'll see a bit of a change since you were here before. Most of the concrete has gone and er well we tried to tidy the place up a little bit. Er that's been a hard old grind though, I can tell you. Erm if you'd like to look behind the hangar you'll see the sort of thing we're up against. There was, there was just hund acres and acres like that and er, but er that's been worthwhile and er so hopefully we'll still improve it. Erm now the tower itself. I don't want to say too much about the tower because I'll leave that to two, two chaps who done most of the work, Ron and Colin . Er I think that's wonderful, wonderful work they've done, er they're absolutely dedicated, they've so much as spent all their time in the last four years working here. Er I just can't believe it now. Er well I don't want to make a long speech, ladies and gentlemen, but when you return to the States I hope you'll take some happy memories with you and remember, we have not forgot you, especially those chaps who failed to return. Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, excuse my notes, hope to get it over. Ladies and gentlemen it is my great privilege, on this auspicious occasion, to welcome you here today. American guests are famous for deep ties and they hope they will consider themselves at home as long as they are in this country. In fact, I know that they will be. Being themselves so wonderfully hospitable as I have, through personal experiences. Americans are proud of their way of life as we are of our own although there are differences, there are many more similarities. With regards to basic ideas of freedom and justice, we are as one. We fought as one nation during the war and of course those Englishmen here today old enough to remember the period will recall, I'm sure, the young American G Is who were part of our community. Since that time there has been an uneasy peace in the world the price of which has been constant vigilance and in keeping that peace our two countries have continued together as the witness of young American Airforce men currently stationed in this country. I am sure that our joint efforts are one of the strongest bulwarks of peace in the modern world. Thank you. of the Three Ninetieth Bomb Group Museum. Ladies and gentlemen erm about three years ago we finally decided to restore this car that you see behind us and although it was er an impossible task at times we, we carried on regardless and I hope that you'll agree that everything you see today, plus the fact that seeing everybody out here, I think we, you'll agree we made the right decision and er we feel that as long as this car is in this position that nobody'll erm have any doubts who the Three- Ninetieth Group were and er, I think er, I think we're all proud of this day particularly. Thank you. was quoted as saying words to the effect, that we don't do much talking until the fighting is done and we hope when we, when we are gone we'll be glad we came. Well I tell you now Good afternoon and thank you for inviting me. I was erm, asked to er speak on behalf of the locals, as it were, and er so er what can I say but welcome back, welcome back to the where there's nearly forty years ago you were and erm we do welcome you back here again today. When you were here before I was only a schoolboy and er just er old enough to know everything that was going on, as you might say, but young enough so as I didn't get too involved. And er my memories really go back to er the, probably the more pleasant things in the erm mission parties that we were invited to, the film shows in the Officers' Mess, er going to a Glenn Miller dance erm which was held in the hangar up here erm, I don't think we really, or I really appreciated them so much at the time as I do now. As I've got older I realize much more how important and significant they were. And, of course, as children erm, er so I think I can speak for the rest of the children around the base, the erm cigarettes, er not cigarettes, beg your pardon the er sweets and er chocolates etcetera that er we received, erm I think we in fact er, erm yeah well I, we obviously appreciate them very much because er they were something that we a lot of and erm I know that er, that you must know that when you er were out in Ipswich, Framlingham or around about that er you met up a group, there was a group of children and I'm sure you heard the er familiar up, chum. But erm, what I did mean to bring in was th was the that our parents and er our er older erm inhabitants who appreciated the cigarettes and them sort of things. Course, there was also the sadder times. Er we didn't always know what was going on but erm, we did catch the planes when they took off in the morning and we watched them come home in the afternoons and we got some ideas sometimes when things hadn't gone quite right and I'm sure we did share with you in your grief. Particularly also, of course, the planes that erm crashed erm the one in particular that crashed in our village on the erm twenty seventh of December, I think it was, nineteen forty four. Erm miraculously, nobody in the village was hardly scratched but as unfortunately your whole crew perished. But erm we, such as myself and the young'uns and the older ones, have a lot to remember from those years ago. But I've been surprised over the last erm few years of all these young men erm who have restored this museum who, although were not even born in those years, have taken a tremendous interest in what went on and erm well their results, some of their results you can see here today. Speaking of young men, erm I have a letter here from Mr John who is our local M P, who is not able to be with us today, but erm he in fact would not of, I think, been born at that stage, but erm he did write to me a little letter I've got this morning from the House of Commons in London and he asked me to read it out. It is to our American friends, I am so pleased to hear that you are coming to Framlingham to celebrate your anniversary. We in Britain owe so much to our American allies, not only for their support during the last war, but also today. In this area we have your successors at of Woodbridge as they continue an honourable tradition. May I send you my very best wishes for a most successful reunion. Signed John Well, I've spoken about how we remember you but I know you have far more memories of being here those years ago and I know you're really itching to get up off your seats and go and have a good look round to see where you were stationed and if it's at all possible to see the huts, the billets or anything where you were. So I won't really delay you any more. I would like to say that we, the locals, will be very pleased to show you round. The, if any of the ladies would like to go down to the village or anybody, the church is open and I think there's somebody there who would welcome you to show you round the church down in the village which, I know, during the war years at different times, quite a lot of you chaps did attend and er so we do hope you will see and, and of course later on I hope you'll be coming down to mine for a cup of tea. So all I can really say is, I do hope you enjoy your visit here to England and that when you do go back to the States you will feel that it's really been well worthwhile. Thank you. played rather a dirty trick on me because he didn't tell me that I was expected to make a speech. Erm I find this afternoon brings back lots of memories, I'm sure it does to you. I came to Framlingham just as you were going. I came as a foreigner and I'm told that Suffolk people were stand-offish, difficult to get to know and you'd be a foreigner for years. I think you know and I know that this is just not true! They are extremely loyal friends and I count it a double honour to represent Framlingham this afternoon and to offer you a welcome back, a welcome into our homes which we look forward to seeing you on Saturday and we are so thrilled to think that so many of you have made the journey back to visit us and I echo the sentiments of another speaker, don't let it be so long before you come again. Do enjoy your stay and as John says, please ask us, we're here to help, we're here to show you round. Welcome and thank you for inviting me to your ceremony. Thank you Martin, ladies and gentlemen. It's certainly a, a day of reflection an and great appreciation on a part of all of us, the reason we're here er for me, personally, I need to back up for a moment perhaps. I don't think we Americans are particularly known for our sense of humility. Er certainly pilots of any measure are seldom known for their sense of humility. Commanding Generals rarely are known for their sense humility. You need to understand that I have, as we watch the RAF a beautiful aeroplane, er Colonel and I just exchanged a thought on it. It reminds us in lines and capability er not unlike the er Mosquito of, of the fame of er and times of World War Two, a very clean, a very highly effective aeroplane. But this er American pilot, Commanding General, stands before this group with a great sense of humility and a, a sense of great honour, recognizing the only reason I'm here is because I have to be the Commanding General. A day of reflection and appreciation, certainly to the living and the dead members of the famous Three-Ninetieth Group and most certainly to our, our very close and dear friends the British people have shown this sort of involvement and appreciation in memory of, of those times and sacrifices. We've heard a little bit of, about the Three-Ninetieth Group and we could go on and on because it certainly is indeed er historic organization. But I'm told on this day, May thirteenth, thirty seven years ago, and that should bring back a lot of memories for many of you, the Three-Ninetieth flew its hundred and fifth combat mission from this station and many of you remember that day. It was to in Germany. This time you hit railwa railroad er marshalling . You led the Thirteenth Combat Wing with your twenty seven aircraft and suffered er no losses. That was a fortunate day for you. You know all too well that other days had their heavy toll indeed. This plaque and this tower and museum, we have dedicated it as a memorial to those days when you suffered severely yet still struck your targets. The Three- Ninetieth had a reputation on the record that enemy fighters never forced you to turn back and that's some special form of courage. I think I'd like to make two quick points relating to the Three-Ninetieth Bombardment Group. Regarding your beginnings, you were born in battle on August ni eighth, nineteen forty three. No occupied France but a target into Germany. A week and a half later you struck Ragansberg and shuttled to Africa. On the, this your third mission you won a distinguished unit citation which has been pointed out. That day was the one year anniversary of, of Eighth Air Force operations in England. From the humble beginnings of the previous year you flew the first great test of concept of long-range strategic bombardment. It was a test that the Three-Ninetieth passed with flying colours destroying thirteen enemy aircraft and achieving excellent bombing results. Three hundred and one missions. Nine thousand, three hundred and thirty one sorties and a year and a half later, you flew your last mission on the twentieth of April, nineteen forty five, from this field. Everyone of, who was alive during that day still remembers it vividly, the day of the last mission. I am sure of, many of you ground and air crew members of the Three-Ninetieth, as well as the local citizenry remember what was happening on this very spot. In celebration, I'm told you shot off every flare you could get your hands on. Er probably the U S Government's still paying for all those flares I am told the sky was brilliant and alive with red and green and white flares. To the citizens of England and the rest of the free world the sky will, will remain bright indeed for what you men have done and your fellows had done. The flares you fired thirty six years ago are still burning brightly today, for in that time we have not had a world war. That is probably the greatest testimonial to you and your comrades. Those flares you fired for the war you ended are still burning for the peace that you won. With your mission you pr proved that air power can strike any target on the globe. That cap capability has been carried on by our own Airforce and indeed the Royal Airforce and our fellow partners in, in NATO. And it has deterred any potential aggressor for the last three decades. You not only the, won the peace for your generation but for your sons and your daughters and your grandsons and granddaughters. Your efforts have to be one of the most remarkable achievements of mankind. In the American Cemetery near Cambridge, England there is an inscription over the Great Wall which lists the men missing in action. A portion of that inscription serves us well today and it reads and I quote all who shall hereafter live in freedom will be here reminded that to these men and their comrades we owe a debt to be paid with grateful remembrance of their sacrifice and with a high resolve that the cause for which they died will live eternally . We do owe a debt to be paid with grateful remembrance of the sacrifices you and your comrades made. We owe another debt to the local English citizens who have restored and revitalized this building as a tangible memorial to those men. To the Englishmen who have used their time and talents to restore this control tower, we are most grateful. Because of you the cause for which the men of the Eighth Air Force paid the elemental price shall live eternally and may we all pray that may our kinship ever be preserved between these two great nations. Thank you. for a very gentleman. This gentleman has the silver four distinguished flying crosses, the bronze star, eight air medals, the French and the Polish cross of the Underbound Army Our own fighting Colonel Joseph I have a one-liner I would like to try. At this sort of a reunion, one looks to another and says I don't look sixty, do I? And the other says no, but you did when you were. You know, the tower the tower was the focal point. It was almost easier to fly a mission than it was to come out here and sweat the boys back in. And this is the sweat box for every commanding officer, every squadron commander, operations officer and even a group commander. Pounds, gallons, tons of sweat are in that building and on the roof. Everything that's been said about it, I would like to simply say, we owe a great debt of gratitude to our English friends for preserving our heritage of the past. We who flew in the past here, sincerely thank you. I'd like to pause just a moment and talk about the future. You see these young men here. Those of us who have fought those of us who have fought still have one job we can do and that is to see that the military capability of the United States is such that no potential aggressor will ever dare attack us. We must build armaments, military strength and that is the way to peace. I leave you with that thought because I think that's the job for all of us old pilots. Lastly, I would simply say that for weeks before the war was over, General whom I would like to call your attention to, was an Operations Officer and during the night when we were laying on missions we'd say to each other, when this thing's over we're gonna get stinking drunk. And the night that it was over we met in our quarters, we poured a drink and we stood there and looked at each other and he said well, we made it. We drank the drink and both of us went to bed and sleep. I have a telegram I would like to read from Colonel George which we have received. George, unfortunately, had a heart attack a few weeks ago. Please convey my best wishes to all members and guests of the Three-Ninetieth Bomb Group on the occasion of this the thought comes I'd rather be up there than down here, wouldn't you? I'll start again so you'll get his thought. Please convey my best wishes to all members and guests of the Three-Nen Ninetieth Bomb Group on the occasion of the anniversary of the dedication of the flight tower. I still feel a sense of pride at having been a member of the Three-Ninetieth. I deeply regret my being unable to be with you and to join the memorial service and the dedication together with the related activities. Signed George We have a few mementoes I am sure you will agree are richly deserved. I would like to first call, in alphabetical order, Robert Erm Colonel has supported very actively the current Three-Ninetieth Missile Wing like he supported us and he is respectfully known to them as Uncle Joe. Er he actively supports them, he attends er attends a lot of their missile competitions out at Air Force base. Er he gives them a lot of moral support and in their blast off parties when they're ready to go out and conduct the missile competition, er he really stirs the pot and gets the guys moving. Er, in addition if you were to walk into the headquarters there today, in their trophy case the largest and most prestigious trophy is the Moller trophy. Not too long ago, Colonel and a new present commander of the Three-Ninetieth Strategic Missile Wing agreed to establish a memorial, a heritage programme between the Bomb Group veterans and the Strategic Missile Wing people erm hopefully for a long time to come. Such a programme is under way and consists basically of the establishment of a memorial air museum at Air Force er a procurement of a B-Seventeen G, which has already been done, a flyable B-Seventeen G and the establishment of a foundation. Er all this takes a lot of effort on a lot of people's parts and we're very fortunate today to have three of the professional men who are doing the bulk of the work present with us and their wives. Er I would like them to come up, gentlemen. Captain Geoff is the overall co-ordinator er not only for the procurement, er missile procurement of the B-Seventeen, but he's put the foundation together and he's going to be a curator of the museum. And if you recall when my Colonel read John plaque it attributes to him er the aid in assisting us at in the establishment of that memorial museum, John gave us a er and sort of took that apart and hauled it over to and it was flown back to the States and that's going to be a briefing operations room for the museum itself. Er so Geoff has really put all that together fr er and Seth Captain Seth is the Titan One Project Officer for the memorial and would you believe it or not, he's already ha secured a Titan missile and two rocket engines for it. And er Lieutenant Les is doing all the work on the B- Seventeen, the restoration of it and we're going to have a reunion. Our next reunion is March, eleventh through the fourteenth in Tucsan, Arizona and not only will we dedicate the museum at that time but er Les assures me he's gonna have the airplane ready done, be er flown again with a . Er these gentlemen have a presentation to make and I wonder if Ron would come up here for a moment, please. Geoff. Strategic Missile Wing, one of finest, we feel. I'd like to present on behalf of Colonel centre, a plaque from all of us at the Three-Ninetieth at D M Museum. I'd like to read its inscription. We pray that by the efforts of our armed forces and our statesmen there may be peace. But we remember that that peace can only be maintained while we have our statesmen and perhaps even more important, our armed forces. In the name of God Almighty, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, we dedicate this museum to the memory of all those of the Eighth Army Air Force who served in the Second War and in our dedication, we pray to Almighty God that there may be no third. Amen . I will now ask the Rector of Framlingham for the closing prayer. In the order of events this afternoon you see part of Psalm one hundred and three printed there which is part of the commendation at the occasion of the funerals of the departed. And so in memory of all those men who did not return to this base, we dedicate them to the keeping of Almighty God we read these verses together. Like as a father pitieth his own children, even so is the Lord merciful unto them that fear him for he knows whereof we are made. He remembereth that we are but dust, the days of man are but grass for he flourishes as a flower of the field, for as soon as the wind goes over it, it is gone and the thereof shall know it no more. But the merciful goodness of the Lord endureth for ever and ever upon men that and his righteousness Joy be to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Ghost. As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be world without end. Amen . Finally as a prayer which men and women of every faith can say, the Lord's Prayer. Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name, thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil for thine is the kingdom, the power and the glory, for ever and ever, Amen. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. Amen . that last prayer concluded the dedication of the Three- Ninetieth Bomb Group Memorial Air Museum at Parham Airfield. At er approaching the er six o'clock er that same evening er B- Seventeen Flying Fortress performed er a very impressive flypast er and the cameras of Anglia Television, the er local television company in the East Anglian region were there to cover the ceremony and also the flypast. Er on the following day, the er programme featuring the memorial er dedication and er flypast were shown on Anglia Television. Here is that coverage by that company. Many reunions of the men who flew to the airfield all over East Anglia, but yesterday saw the biggest ever get-together of combat airmen in Britain. It took place at the former American base at Parham in Suffolk. Veterans had gathered to celebrate the reopening of the base control tower which had stood derelict for over thirty years. was there. They came from all over America the men of the Three Hundred and Ninetieth Bombardment Group, one of the most decorated and acclaimed sections of America's wartime military machines. For many this was the first time they'd been back to Parham in thirty six years. It was a nostalgic occasion, made even more emotional by the memory of the fifteen hundred men who flew from here never to return. Now the control tower of this famous wartime airfield has been restored by local enthusiasts who form the Three Hundred and Ninetieth Memorial Air Museum. A visit reminds you of Parham's illustrious past when even Glenn Miller used to play here. I, I would say that my most vivid memory would be the erm thought that we were erm came here as just young flying boys. I was a flying boy, came in here and all of a sudden was involved in an operation that, that was er quite intense erm the, the noise of the aircraft erm the erm hustle and bustle that we went through, the, the briefings and the er experience of, of erm having a meal that could've been your last meal. What was life like here back in forty three, forty four, was it a depressing place to be? A twenty two year old young fellow with a . This is Lieutenant Colonel Dick speaking. The last voice you heard was Andy I think I previously I think it was just a I needed Mama. I got my wings and I'm gonna do my share, but as I got almost two years here, I found myself worrying about some poor tailgunner that wasn't feeling well as he went on the airplane. The airplane went down You flew a total of forty three missions it says here. Correct, forty three missions. I flew two tours. Two, first one and then one other. So you're lucky to be here? So they say. After a flypast of more modern military life it was down to the business of unveiling the plaque which commemorates the role of the Three Hundred and Ninetieth. For some the occasion was a moving reminder of fallen friends, of youthful bravado that often ended in tragedy. The Missing Man formation demonstrated here by the A Ten based at nearby Bentwaters, was often a daily sight when Parham was fully operational from nineteen forty three to forty five. Coming in from the South we now have a welcome from the RAF. And if recent reports are anything to go by it wasn't only aircraft which were paying their respects to Parham yesterday. I personally came one morning and erm the building up This is Ron the Museum organizer I smelt fresh cigar smoke and I called out like you normally would to anybody there and no er reply so I searched all round the building, not a soul in sight but there was this distinct smell of cigar smoke and my colleague er Mr Martin he had an experience er a year or two after he joined us. One morning he also opened up the building, went upstairs and came down and there was these fresh footprints on a part of the building which he hadn't been at that time and he, like myself, looked all over the building and not a soul in sight. And on a er visit to a museum a few weeks later he also discovered flying boots of exact prints he'd seen on the wet floor. But the most evocative sight at Parham yesterday was the return of the B-Seventeen Flying Fortress which was based there during the war. It had been specially flown in from Duxford Air Museum in Cambridgeshire and for the veterans and locals of Parham it was a picture they'll never forget. Right so so we have erm the Neighbourhood Hous Housing Officer and the, the Area Housing Officer. Erm how do you, what's, what's, how do the roles actually differ? Erm, well, there's sort of five staff Yeah. here at Yeah. at the office. Two Area Housing Officers management, erm one Area Housing Officer technical, a clerical Mhm. and a Neighbourhood Housing Officer. I'm responsible for the sort of overall management, but I tend not to get out as much as say, Area Housing Officers, they're more sort of at grass roots. Mhm. Erm sort of I may deal with sort of solicitors letter, that sort, the, the more complicated legal side, and, and that sort of thing. Erm distribute work out to, to officers and they report back if there's problems with it or, or that sort of thing. Mhm. erm in your case you worked at erm another neighbourhood office prior to erm , and how does it compare working ? Yeah, prior to, prior to coming to Hyson Green, I worked at , Yeah. and then previously I worked at neighbourhood office, and I only came to when it had be d been declared a clearance area, Mhm. so it was totally different work from what I'd been used to. Mhm. Erm but it w saw it as a useful experience in a clearance exercise, which Mhm. I'd never been involved in before as an Area Housing Officer, and just involved with day to day management, but with it being a clearance area it's a totally different approach, and the sort of things that you deal with are totally different as well. Mhm. So what are the areas of work that you've been involved in? What are the Previously? Yeah, previous, and how, and how's, and how's, does it yeah, well, here, right? T what, what's the kind of work that you are now involved in? What, what's your Well before,y you tended Yeah. to deal with re-letting the property, normal Yeah. day to day transfers, neighbour problems, that sort of thing. Now you're involved with finding people alternative accommodation. Erm there's no choice everybody's got to move, and you're more involved with the, the removal of people, sort of, the sort of problems that they encounter finding removal firms, connection of electricity at the new places, and all that sort of thing. Mhm. In terms of the Neighbourhood Housing Office, what are the, what are the origins behind that, cos this is cos this i this actual, it's actually situated, isn't it, within the flats, erm do you think that was a deliberate decision made that it should be part of the flats rather than somewhere outside, Yeah, it's part of erm the housing policy erm Yeah. to basically decentralize erm er N c the city of Nottingham. Erm they, they picked out erm particular areas where there were a lot of pe there were problems within that area erm whether it be normal management problems or erm racial issues, I E there is a particular area, there is a high density of black people erm er the properties them themselves weren't up erm of a particularly high quality, erm they decided to decentralize and i and do an intensive management area for that area. Erm and so they set up a team erm four or five teams within the city, er which included Radford, the Crabtree Meadows area, erm and Bestwood area Mhm. Yeah, how does it actually differ, this kind of office and the roles that It's compared with the typical traditional Housing Officer? Housing Officer, yeah. Erm you basically erm deal with erm the tenants on a more personal basi basis, Mhm. you, you, you see them as erm er er you know you t you speak to them on erm christian name terms, you, you help them with any kind of erm social problem or welfare problem they may have. It's not a par erm not particularly a housing problem. Erm you, you're in fact a er everybody, er every Housing Officer erm oh what was I going to say? They, they're sort of like a probation officer, social worker, that sort of thing, erm most people come to us with all sorts of problems not just not particularly housing problems. And you're on site, you're about And you're on site, yeah, yeah. You're just two minutes away, aren't you? Yeah, they see you every day, they you know and You use the same shops and Mm. you know. Mhm. How good would you say the relationship has been between erm the Housing, Housing Office and the tenants,how is the relationship for all of you? I think generally, there, there is erm a decent rapport between us and the tenants, er because yo we, we do explain to them erm you know what we can do, and what we can't do. The they're never sort of given feeble excuses, we are erm very truthful with them,i in order to make them understand that, you know, there are limitations erm within our jobs as well, cos a lot of people expect things, and erm you may promise them, well other people may promise them, and it's not delivered then of course it's sort of them and us, and we, we try to dispel that idea, it's not them Mhm. and us. We're here to serve them, that's why we're being paid. Er we we're here to give them a decent service, and we'll do our utmost to do that, Mhm. and help done. Obviously you can't please everybody, Everybody. You are going to get people who are, who are I expect that everyone came to church here, this evening because they knew that it was a communion Sunday, and the sacrament of Holy Communion would be celebrated here this evening. But there are many of you here also because this is start of the evening services for the winter. And you're most likely, here not just for communion but because it's your custom to come to the six thirty service. I do very much hope that I can persuade those of you who have just come for communion, to join with us regularly at this service in the weeks that lie ahead. Now please don't think that I'm saying this for the benefit of somebody else. If the evening service is to remain a strong service of Christian witness then it needs you, not just the Ministers and the organist and the choir. It needs you. And I hope that you will commit yourself to come regularly. Next Sunday at this time we're going to be having a a service of rededication for the leaders of our organizations. And rededication for every individual that cares to come along. For the next few months Mr and I are going to home in on a theme for these services. And the theme will be aspects of Christian living. And we're going to take some perfectly ordinary facets of life and try to address them in terms of what they should mean to the Christian believer. How we should respond to them. We're going to be talking about things like, the Christian and sin, the Christian and responsibility. things like our salvation, our failures, love. topics like that. Tonight then it's a communion thanksgiving service, but let me just spend a few minutes just sketching a little background on some of life's challenges. the challenges which Jesus himself presents to Christians, and the challenges which life presents in a general sense. In the gospel of Saint Matthew tonight we read, in chapter sixteen at versus twenty four and twenty five, these words. Jesus told his disciples, if any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. For whoever would save his life will lose it. And who ever loses his life for my sake, will find it. Now there's a challenge, if ever there was one. Jesus Christ never ever calls people to the little things of life. Jesus Christ was big himself, he came into the world to do big things and he calls us to do big things. But there's something in even the very best of us which would really prefer to take the easy way out, if that's at all possible. But Jesus so often pints the hard way, and challenges us to follow him, through that hard way. And so now other course, needless to say, is worthy of the real Christian. It is an attractive thing to follow Jesus Christ, but it's no bed of roses. His call is perhaps the hardest but it's also the highest. Now life's full of challenges, the business person on this world, is challenge to work hard and to make wealth. Wealth, sometimes for himself. Wealth, very often on behalf of others. The professional person is challenged to serve well and to make a name for himself or herself. All sorts of challenges, but life's biggest challenge is the challenge that Jesus Christ makes to the Christian. So what are the challenges of Jesus Christ? Well one of them is to show that there is something different about us. To show that we do live distinctive lives, and that we try sincerely, however imperfectly, but try sincerely to refrain from the seamier side of life, and to concentrate on everything that's wholesome. A good example of that that I read about it was the naturalist who was making a study of snakes. And he took a poisonous viper and forced its mouth open, and inserted a glass under its fangs and drew out a couple of drops of deadly poison. And when the poison was put under the microscope it seemed to contain the most beautiful colours of the rainbow. A most attractive thing, and yet it was a deadly poison. Sinfulness in life can been seen like that too. It looks So often it looks beautiful and it looks innocent, and people are attracted to it, Christians also. And falling before temptation it's easy to let yourself slide down into things that can be very hurtful. Hurtful to ourselves and hurtful to Christ. And Jesus says Come out from among these things, come out from among them. And some honest Christian people do and some find it very hard to do. And those who find it hard to reject a sinful situation could often argue that they're above it and no way is it hurting them. And maybe that's the case, or appear to be the case but it can be hurting the cause of Christ. So one of the challenges t is to be ale to show that there is something different about those of us who are Christians. Something that other people can see, something that other people like in us. Something that other people can be encouraged to live up to. Show Jesus Christ by your personal example. And following on from that there's the challenge of being faithful to Jesus throughout life. Not just when we find it suitable. Someone once asked a shepherd whether his sheep would follow a stranger, and he said. When they're well they won't do that. they won't follow a stranger, but when they're sick they'll follow anyone. Now if you sort of turn that round there's a lot in it as it applies to Christians. When things are going well there doesn't seem quite the same need to be faithful. Indeed even if you are faithful to the gospel that's the time that you often go off on your own and experiment with this and that, different type of Church, different type of fellowship, something that's perhaps not particularly Christ centred at all. But it's different when you're up against it, different when you're spiritually sick. The history of the whole of the Church shows that having been full to overflowing in times of crisis, in times of war for example. But in peace time, people drift away. but Jesus Christ calls his people to be faithful all the time, throughout life. Not just when it suits. I wonder whether Christ would not rather go to Calvary again than to suffer the unfaithfulness of some of his friends. Surely the cross didn't hurt him as much as our unfaithfulness can. And following from that there's the challenge connected with seeking Jesus, constantly seeking Jesus. How do we seek Him? We seek him in prayer. Over and over again Jesus says, you pray and I will answer. Listen to Saint Matthew's gospel again. Ask and it shall be given, seek and you'll find, knock and it will be opened. For every one who asks, receives. He that seeks, finds, to him that knocks it will be opened. Well we read about prayer and we know about its power but you know we often don't avail ourselves off it and yet it's plainly written. Let me give you a biblical example. Don't know if you remember in the Old Testament, the book of genesis. A narrative about Jacob and Esau. Jacob had not seen Esau since he had cheated him out of his birthright, twenty years previously. And he knew that Esau hated him, and he was afraid to meet him. And because he was afraid to meet him, Jacob spent the night before meeting him in prayer. And that is like an awful lot of us. We wait until trouble comes, until trouble is staring us in the face, before we really feel the need of God, and pray. Jesus Christ challenges us, okay. Then why should we accept his challenges? Why not just ignore them? Well we should accept them for the sake of our own spiritual growth for one thing. It's a great inner joy to feel that you're growing in grace. At the end of a year it's good to look back and to feel that you have made some progress in your spiritual life. there are many people and probably a few of you here tonight, who have been members of the Church for a long time. And although you've grown physically, grown mentally, grown possibly financially. Don't feel that you've grown all that much spiritually. You feel perhaps you don't know very much more about the Bible than you did, say, ten years ago. Well perhaps this is a good time just to take stock and to say I know that I'm not all that I should be and all that I ought to be, but by this time next year I'm going to be a bit better than I am just now, in spiritual terms. I'm going to grow spiritually. So we can accept that challenge. We can accept Christ's challenge for the sake of our own spiritual growth. And we should accept it also for the sake of our sinful world. For the sake of those round about us who don't have whatever commitment we have. Just remember that the world is looking at we Christians. The world is looking at us. I was reading an article the other day in a theological journal about the Church in Korea, an dhow it was growing, and how people were taking their faith seriously. And because they were prepared to go out and speak about their faith people were being converted from Buddhism to Christianity in their thousands. If our faith is just a tiny part of us then nobody is going to notice. But if we act as if we belong to Jesus Christ then we shall be seen to have that plus and others will be attracted to Jesus Christ through us. I was speaking a minute ago about Jacob and Esau. You remember the time when Jacob wrestled all night with the angel of the Lord. The angel struck Jacob on the thigh and Jacob limped for the rest of his life. that experience changed him in every way. Christians have had an experience with Christ. Let us hope that it manifests itself through some outward show. As a Christian do you feel that you've been changed? Can others see Jesus Christ in you? Or in me for that matter? I'm not sure how many people are led to Jesus Christ through sermons. I'm sure that feeding people the word regularly is a great help. It encourages our spiritual growth but the initial step, the initial step which people make is generally as a resump result of something much more simple, much more basic. It's often more an example of a good life or a special kindness. What we refer to as a good Christian action. My friends, let's just remember this night that as we've shared bread and wine together, we've reaffirmed that Jesus Christ gave his life so that we might live. For his sake then let us give of our best, in every sense of that term. Let us accept his challenge, let us be better Christians, and let us begin it now. You find the text this morning in Saint Matthew, chapter seventeen, versus twenty and twenty one. For truly I say to you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, move from here to their at it will move. And nothing will be impossible to you. Last Sunday you may remember I held up something at the start of the service, and it was my mail from the previous day and we homed in on one buff letter which had H M inspector of taxes in it. Can you see what I'm holding up in my and this morning? No of course of you can't because I've got nothing in it. And even if I did have and had a mustard seed here, you still wouldn't be able to see it for a mustard seed is no bigger than a pin head. It's not quite the smallest of all the seeds, but nevertheless it's small enough to make a proverbial point like tall as a house, or small as a mouse, small as a grain of mustard seed. And as we heard this morning Jesus told us a parable about a mustard seed, although it's small it grows into quite a large shrub. One with a height of anywhere between six and ten feet. Almost a tree in fact. It's big enough for birds to come and make their nests in it. And Jesus said that God's dominion, the rule of Heaven, is something like a mustard seed which starts out tiny and ends up big. And Jesus also used the example of the mustard seed to talk about faith. Jesus, Saint Peter and James and John had just been on the mountain top at the site of the transfiguration, a high point in the gospel story, and right on the heels of that they descended into the valley below and there was a crowd with Jesus' others disciples. And out of the crowd came this man who knelt before Jesus and pleaded for mercy for his son, an epileptic, who suffered terribly, was a danger to himself and to others. And the disciples had apparently been unable to help the boy. A seemingly exasperated Jesus says, Oh faithless and perverse generation, how long am I to be with you? How long am I to bear with you? Bring him here to me. And then rebuking the demon who's presence is assumed to afflict the epelo epileptic Jesus accomplished this healing. And so the stage is set, and the disciples came to Jesus privately, asking why they couldn't cast it out? Why could they not heal the boy? Well I supposed we'd all like to know the answer to that. Jesus said simply that they failed because they had little faith. Now I've always taken that to mean that if they had big faith, they would have been alright. They should have had greater confidence in their power to heal. And I've always heard what Jesus goes on to say in the context of that understanding of the text. For truly, I say to you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you'll say to this mountain, move from here to there, and it'll move, and nothing'll be impossible. And the way that the text is translated I've always supposed that Jesus must have thought that mustard seeds had a lot of faith. Something that starts out so tiny must have a lot of faith to believe that it can become something big. And we're supposed to have faith like that, faith that can accomplish something big. Now matter how small our beginnings. We should even be able to move mountains if we have enough faith. Well there's only one thing wrong with that interpretation of the text. I don't know about you but I have a hard time believing that. I can't believe that if you have enough faith you can move a mountain from here to there. Certainly not a literal mountain. And probably not a figurative mountain either. Now there are some people who have doubtless believed that they an do such grand things, but for the most part they've failed. I find it hard to believe that all you need is a big faith for mountains to be moved. And then when I was reading the text really carefully, I came to the conclusion that that's not really what Jesus is saying. the problem with Jesus' disciples and the point here is that it's our problem as well, is not that we lack a big faith. The problem is that we lack virtually any faith. The problem is a lack of virtually any faith at all. What we need is not enormous confidence that we can move mountains as if they were molehills. What we need is not that grandiose. What the text says is that we are to have faith as a grain of mustard seed. That's what we're to have. That's the size we're to have, faith the size of a mustard seed. Jesus is calling his disciples to have a little faith. Faith as big as this minuscule mustard seed that you can't see. And the point of his saying seems to be that with the littlest of faith, the great tasks can be accomplished. That's what the kingdom of heaven, God's dominion over the world is really like. From the very smallest can come something great. This simile of the mustard seed is not to call us to some great Cecil B Demille-like ambition. It doesn't require us to believe that anything can and will happen if we believe big enough and hard enough. It's simply calling us to have a little faith. Faith no bigger than a mustard seed. And it assures us than even with minimal faith, God's purposes will be accomplished beyond all that we can believe. Now you see in our day and generation, we don't need to be reminded of the importance of little things. the more we learn about the atom, the more we're astonished at its complexity and its unseen power. The more complex and ambitious our technology, the more we realize the billion pound difference that there can be in a millimetre. The further we research into the intricacies of the human genes, the closer we come to the possibility of refashioning human biological existence. The knowledge that we now have about fertilization and development of the human ovum speaks to us of the miracle of our existence. and as we know can greatly complicate the moral and ethical dilemmas of human sexuality and procreation and abortion. We all know, perhaps too well, the great consequences that flow nowadays from very very little things. None the less, in the realm of human events, the teaching of Jesus still goes against our conventional suppositions, because we all assume that big outcomes need big inputs. the logic of human effort, would say that to accomplish great things for God, we've got to have great faith. But when Jesus says, faith the size of a mustard seed will do, then we have our doubts. Someone once said more people are cheated by believing nothing than by believing too much. And I think Jesus would probably agree, believing nothing gets us no where, we can do nothing without faith. Faith we're told, is the antiseptic of the soul. Now that's an expression worth remembering. Faith is the antiseptic of the soul. Someone without faith has no prospect, no promise of salvation, no hope of life to come. Future is closed. But that does not follow that with a great big faith we can anything. Jesus teaching is not so much about our faith, it's really about God's power. It's not the amount of faith that we can muster. What Go what Jesus is saying is don't cut God out. Give God the slightest opportunity, open yourselves to the spirit, even to the smallest degree, and you'll be amazed what can happen. If you're open to the divine power, even just a little bit. That's enough for God to go to work in you. That's the miracle of the kingdom of heaven, God will take it from there. So we mustn't take ourselves too seriously in this. Jesus' talk about moving mountains maybe provided a note of humour. It's a ca case of gross exaggeration in order to make a point, and parables are full of that. The point is that we will never know what God can do with us until we've ventured forward with a little faith. We're probably not the people that we think we are. People of modest faith but not enough for the really big challenges of life. i think Jesus is saying, don't kid yourself, you've hardly got any faith at all. We sceptics when it comes to healing the world's infirmities and redeeming its great sins. Far from being only slightly shy of great faith we're almost completely unpractised in the art of letting God be God. And of entrusting ourselves in to the power of his mercy. How did you get where you are today? What started you off, say on the track of your present work? If you're married, what are the circumstances under which you and your spouse met? Possibly you can't remember. Many of the young couples that come here to see about their weddings, when asked, admit that their relationship had a pretty unspectacular beginning. Most didn't start out with plans to get married. Most of us didn't begin our education or our first job with plans to do what we're actually doing today. Most of us have lived long enough to know that you can't say with any certainty, where you might be in the future. And part of the mystery of our existence, is if they we If we give ourselves in faith to God, even in the small and inauspicious ways, the consequences of doing that might be enormous. Jesus' disciples, with their little faith, were soon to become a small Jewish sect. Their leader, whose own origins were inauspicious humanly speaking, was going to die a pretty ignoble death, but those who had gathered around him subsequently discovered that there were depths to experience and power that words can hardly explain. That little faith went on to go right round the world and it's here today. Faith, my friends, is the prospect that all our relationships can be transformed, it's openness towards a movement of grace, a path to discover just how little life is of our own making and how much of it comes from a gift which is not our own. If we would have faith only the size of a mustard seed, how our lives would be enhanced. many of the tensions would be resolved, many of the disharmonies dissolved. Our world would be a different place. because if we did that, we would be much more fully in the hands of God. Would we not? So have faith as a grain of mustard seed, amen. There are two texts for the sermon this morning which, as you know, is on God, the Holy Spirit. Since we've been thinking these past few weeks about what Christians believe, the first text would be in the er skeleton outline that we've been taking in the Apostles' creed, which says I believe in the Holy Ghost. You'd find that in hymn five four six. I believe in the Holy Ghost. The other text would be Saint John chapter three, verse eight. The last verse that we read. The wind blows where it wills, and you hear the sound of it but you do not know whence it comes or whither it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the spirit. Now one of these texts speaks about the Holy Ghost and the other one speaks about the Holy Spirit. Perhaps that we should get rid of all the wrong associations with the word ghost, which no longer means what it meant, for example, when the apostles' creed was first translated into English. Spirit is much more in the language of today. God the Holy Spirit that means God's energy or God's power present with us now. And energy's a strange thing because you can't see it as such. You can only see its results. It's been interesting these past few days to watch the energy of the sun through the effect that it's had on the snow. Each time I come out of the onto I'm impressed by the fact that the snow has been much more pronounced on our side of the road than on the other, which has cleared much more quickly. And of course it's heat of the sun which strikes the other side but which misses our side. And if you look at the roofs of a row of houses, a few days after any snow fall, some roofs are free of snow quite quickly, and some take much longer, even although there's no sun. And the roofs that keep the snow for along time, do so either because the house is unoccupied or it's pretty cold inside, or it's got a well insulated loft. In other words there's not much heat rising from the living area. But for the others heat rises through the roof and enables the snow to melt. You can't see the warmth that causes that to happen, you can only see the result of it. And the result is snow coming off the roof. In other words you can't see the power, you can only see the result of the power. The Holy Spirit, the power of God. God's power resent with us in the here and now, we can't see it but we can feel it. We can see though the result of it. This word spirit appears in the very first verse of the Bible, where it states that the Earth was without form and void. And the spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. And that's the Bible referring to the beginning of life, or the movement and the agent of God's activity is the spirit. And the Hebrew word for spirit is Gruak and that really has two meanings. And the first meaning is quite simply, the wind. And that's quite helpful. At some time or another most of us will have sat beside the shore of a loch when there's complete calm and not a breath of air. And you know, you look at the water and you see in the water a perfect reflection of what there is above. And then, almost imperceptibly, the calm surface become ruffled and the clear images blurred, and it becomes colder. And it does that because a wind has sprung up, you can't see it but you can observe its effect. And that illustration offers the same image of an invisible power, and with this we can begin to see the spirit of God at work in the world. The Hebrew word Gruak And the other idea of that word is breath, and that's not really too different. God formed man from the dust of the ground, says the book of Genesis, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul. The Old Testament idea of the spirit of God breathing into human beings something of his own life, or sometimes it's something giving a extra quality of living. Indeed sometimes this spirit of God comes to specific people to endow them for a particular task. For example it might perhaps enable a prophet to speak out fearlessly in god's name. In that and in other ways, it's the unseen agency of God's activity. And in the New Testament, the word for the spirit there is the Greek, Pneuma P N E U M A, Pneuma. And that has the same two meanings really, wind and breath. And from that word comes pneumatic,, which simply refers to a pressure of air. From that word too comes pneumonia, an infection which we can get in our human breathing apparatus. Holy Spirit, the agent of God's activity. As i mentioned a couple of Sundays ago, the spirit is creatively active at the conception of Jesus. Conceived by the Holy Ghost or the Holy Spirit. And this spirit continues with Jesus thereafter, it descended on him at baptism, it drove him out into the wilderness to be tempted and so on. The spirit is the agent of God's activity. I believe in the Holy Spirit. God in three person, father son and Holy Spirit, and yet one god. Baptism, for example, is to be in the name of the father, the son and the Holy Spirit. And the benediction at the end of every service, speaks of benefits from father, son and Holy Spirit. The third person of the trinity. the Holy Spirit ranks equally along side the other two. Not subordinate in any way, God's presence with us now. Professor James , a former professor of Church history at the university of Aberdeen, has a little story which goes like this. he says two men are looking at a sunset, one of them is awed and humbled by the glory of the fiery clouds, and his heart is lifted up to God in gratitude and wonder. The other one glances at the sunset and remarks, Ha, it looks like being a wet day tomorrow. A revelation of beauty has entered into the one person, but not the other. Late afternoon yesterday, my family and I were going up to Dunkil to visit the Bible class who About a dozen deer and one or two stags high on the hill. Shortly after that we rounded a bend and there was sheet ice on the bend, and I felt the car beginning to slip away from me. When we reached Dunkil we could have done two things, we could have said to the Bible class, We had a marvellous journey up and told them all about the glory of God as we saw him in the mountains, or we could have said, We almost had an accident on our way up here. Again it depends on how you look at it. The same with Jesus, many people looked at Jesus and saw a village joiner, or saw a wandering preacher, or saw a wonder working doctor, or a political adventurer. But a few looked at him and saw God. The revelation was there but not everybody had eyes to see it. The revelation remained external, it remained outside the hearts of the majority of the people. But it did enter the hearts of some. And where it did, these people became the power of God unto salvation. And the power which set this realization in motion is the Holy Spirit. It is the task of the Holy Spirit to take the revelation God as given to us through Jesus Christ, and to bring it home to us step by step, as we're able to grasp it. the spirit points us to Christ and reveals what is in Christ. And what is revealed in Christ is the mystery of God. the God who is above us as creator and father, the God who is beside us as Christ our brother, the God who is within us as God the Holy Spirit. It's the one true God who confronts us successively in each of these three persons, he who knows Christ knows the father also, and he who has the spirit has the father and the son as well. Breathe on me breath of God, fill me with life anew, that I may love what thou dost love, and do what thou wouldst do. Some of you here, I'm sure, will have had the opportunity of visiting Niagara Falls. And if you've ever been there and taken the trip on the little boat which takes you right in to the base of the falls themselves, you'll have seen that there's a hydro electric station which takes power from the water at night, when some of the force is diverted, and instead of the water going over the falls it goes through the hydro electric station. And power which is generated there goes to heat and light the city of Niagara, and some of it goes to cook the dinners in the city of Toronto, and some of it heats the homes in the city of Buffalo. And in years gone by, I understand that some of it was used to electrocute the criminals. And the whole reason for these falls is that Lake Ontario is a hundred and sixty nine feet below Lake Erie. if both of them were on the same level there would be no falls, there would be no power. It's something for us all to have power, power from behind, such as our church. Power before us, such as the thrill or the hope of a coming achievement. Power round about us, like an organization or a culture, but that's somehow power on the level. We all need, in a sense, power from on high, the power from the great dynamo of God. The power of the Holy Spirit. And it's along these power lines from God the Holy Spirit that comes the power which gives light to those who live in darkness. It's along these spiritual power lines that comes the power that gives warmth and sympathy and companionship. And it's along these power lines that come health and refreshment and spirituality. And along these power lines also comes death, for we recall that little bit of power in Niagara which in former days used to rid the state of its criminals. And I liken that to the power from above which can execute our sinful selves. Because everything that's in our lives and is displeasing to God can surely be put into the chair of judgement, ad the power turn on and they're gone. And we're free to live positive and useful and good lives. How does one describe the power of the Holy Spirit? I'm sure that in itself is one of God's great mysteries. Because the kind of earthly and human illustrations that I've been trying to use this morning are all bound to fall short. But the spirit generates the faith by which we know Christ, and it's surely that which makes all the difference between the a mere interest in an historical Jesus and our real living faith in our risen conquering son. Today we are celebrating the sacrament of the Lord's Supper. And in that act we believe that in a spiritual sense that we are lifted up. Lifted up to a new level and a new nearness to our Lord Jesus Christ. We're brought close to him in a spiritual sense. God the Holy Spirit at work. God with us in the here and now. As we draw near to the table in the course of the nest few minutes to meet with our Lord, in the bread and in the wine, let's just remember today that the power, that the energy, that the spiritual renewal comes to us because God is with us and God is with us now, because of the activity of God the Holy Spirit. Amen. Let us pray. Well now, there's a fine text to take on a summer Sunday morning. Some of us are going on holiday. Some of us have been holiday. Some of us are on holiday at this very time. In fact holidays was the the theme taking by the elders who were taking the family service at ten o'clock this morning. And there was a lot of little hands were shooting up when they were being asked where were they going on holiday? Rejoice in the Lord always, a great text for carefree days. I don't know about you though, it's a text that I have quite often had difficulty with and it's And again I say rejoice, rejoice rejoice and again I say rejoice . And that's virtually all it says but it goes over the words again and again, as if it's trying to force you to rejoice through learning the words off by rote. There are times when some people find it plain hard to rejoice. And they're not help particularly by this text which can consume them with a sense of guilt as far as their faith is concerned. Because their faith tells to rejoice, but circumstances of life can be such that rejoicing is the one thing that they cannot do. And Paul goes on, a couple of verses later to write, have no anxiety about anything. And that can seem to rub in this feeling of Christian inadequacy. I suppose that the traditional interpretation of this text would be like saying that the beginning of worry or the beginning of anxiety is the end of faith. Where faith ends, anxiety takes over. Put that the other way round, the beginning of true faith means the end of anxiety. No I suppose we've got to admit that that's true, if we really had faith we wouldn't be anxious. But there's times in most lives whee faith is weak and anxiety is strong. there are times when we think that if we really had faith, if we really believed, if we were true Christians then we would have this peace and serenity about us. And because we we can't be like that we feel dissatisfied and we feel that we're less than perfect in our faith. And so I suppose we must go back and we must say well is is Paul serious? Does he really mean rejoice at all times? I think that Paul could feel joyful because he felt that his life was nearing its end at the time that he wrote. Earlier on in the same piece of writing, in the same letter to the Philippians he had said that for him to die was gain. In his letter to the Romans, he wrote that whether we live or die we belong to God. In other words Paul didn't fear death. More than that he was almost certainly looking forward to it because it meant going home to be with the Lord. Indeed for Paul, the Lord was at hand, the Lord was the centre of life. When Paul wrote about the source of his joy, he didn't say maybe or possibly. He said I am sure I am sure that neither death nor life nor anything else in all creation will be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. But here's an interesting point. In the second chapter of Philippians, a little bit before where we read, Paul's describing the seriousness of the illness of his friend and companion,Ep Aproditus And even although he had written that the thought of his own death caused him no qualms whatever, when he was writing about his friend,Aproditus being at the point of death, he said, But God had mercy on him and not only upon him but on me also lest I should have sorrow on sorrow. Would the death of Aproditus have brought joy to Paul? no it would not. It would have brought sorrow on sorrow. So being a Christian then does not isolate us from sorrow or from grief. To love someone means that when that person dies we can suffer sorrow upon sorrow. Rejoice in the Lord always? Probably not. If we do so we may deny our pain, it would be to pretend that all is well, and that would mean to deny the biblical faith. Someone once wrote,the riddle and insight of biblical faith is the awareness that only anguish can lead to life. Only grieving can lead to joy, only embraced endings permit new beginnings. Newness comes out of pain. Articulated grief is the gate of newness. So if we are to think of all of this in terms of Christian joy then we must realize that joy does not come from being immune to everything else that's going on. It comes from knowing that no matter how intense a pain might be or our sorrow or our anxiousness, that Jesus Christ is the ultimate victor. It mean that we may not be able to rejoice in what is happening now. And we may not be able to rejoice in certain things that have happened in our past. But we can always have faith that we will rejoice in what is going to happen in the future. The joy of the Christian is that when we express our sorrow and our anxiety we shall receive God's peace and we shall receive God's joy. Paul said have no anxiety about anything, but he didn't stop there, he goes on to explain how to rid our lives of anxiety. He says but in everything by prayer and supplication, with thanksgiving, let your requests be known to God. And then the piece of God which passes all understanding will keep your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus. That's the joy of the Christian. And the joy of the Christian, you know, is found in knowing that God's going to sustain us no matter what the future holds. Goodness knows, you hear somebody saying sometimes, goodness knows why he should suffer like that, he never did any harm to anyone. Well that may indeed be so, but the Christian faith has never entered into that particular point, because the Christian faith is never in the business of checks and balances. When we turn to God in prayer and supplication with thanksgiving, God will fill us with the peace which passes all understanding, nothing in all creation can separate us from the love of God which is expressed in Jesus Christ his son, our Lord. God works together for good in all things. Some of us here today may not have all that much reason to rejoice right now but God will ultimately lead us all forward in joy. Christian joy is found when we hold on to God's hand and when we learn that fabulous certainty with which we can step out into the uncertainties of the coming day. When we really dare to trust God, we find that God is really there. and even those who stumble aimlessly through life are constantly and joyfully surprised by God's presence. Whenever we confess our anxiety, he helps, and as we confess we receive joy and peace. Oh what joys we often forfeit, oh what needless pain we bear, all because we do not carry everything to God in prayer. Being anxious is normal, the next stage though is to admit the anxiety and to ask for the faith to see it through. Rejoice in the Lord always, and again I will say rejoice. To rejoice in the Lord is to have the unshakable confen confidence that he is always at hand, and that you and I are always in his hand no matter what happens. That is the blessed assurance. The blessed assurance that God is present in every event, that he is present in every circumstance, that he is working with us to save to heal to forgive to reconcile to restore. Rejoicing in the Lord is having the assurance that nothing is ever lost, that nothing is ultimately beyond him and his power. In any difficult situation we can know that when we have done what's in our power to do, we can place our problem into God's hand and into God's care, knowing that he perhaps has other hands to take up our work that we have done all we can do with. So we must take a text like this at face value. let us rejoice in the Lord always, in the midst of everyday life for the Lord is always near. The parables of Jesus promise that the harvest will come and our constant prayer is that the kingdom will come and that all God's children will be free. Thy kingdom come, say it almost every Sunday. It will come, maybe not today maybe not tomorrow, maybe not next week but someday it will come. There are times in the life of our soul and the summer season is respecter of it, times when we're worried, when we hit a difficult patch. Times when we all get down in the dumps, but God can always reach deep within us and put us back on our feet again. And in any event we rejoice that God is leading us all forward to that day when we shall be with him, when we will be with the one who makes all things new. Rejoice in the Lord always, yes for he heals the broken heart, he binds up the wounds, again I say rejoice. there are those of us here today who are happy. There are even a few who I'm sure don't have a care in the world, although I'm almost prepared to stick my neck out and say that they're in the minority. but if you are in that fortunate position then rejoice and give thanks. Give thanks and do your best to spread your good fortune around, as the old song goes, spread a little happiness. But if, and most of are I'm sure that we've come today with some thorn in our flesh somewhere, some worry, some difficulty or a disappointment perhaps of some kind, then just remember that in all things God works together for good with those who love him, and for that rejoice and give thanks, and again I say, rejoice. Let us pray. Lot seventy does not have a horn with it but Lot ninety two, the good news is it does have a reproducer er Lot one hundred and eleven should have a black dot against it to indicate that it will be removed from the premises if not cleared within the stated time Lot one seven four is withdrawn one nine one the estimate should read eight to twelve hundred and finally Lot one nine eight is withdrawn. Right, Lot one is on the screen now, yes, there it is, Lot one fifty pounds for this, fifty pounds anyone? That's fifty pounds bid,fifty five fifty five now, any more, fifty five. All on fifty five fifty five, any more? At fifty five, all done? Fifty five only sixty down there, thank you, sixty on the left,sixty five seventy, five seventy against you on the left, now any more? Seventy five, you all done at seventy five eighty eighty pounds now, eighty five eighty five, any more? At eighty five bid standing standing at eighty five against you all seated now, at ninety pounds, standing at the back and I'll sell at ninety pounds, are you all done, ninety pounds ninety five just in time one hundred one ten one twenty one thirty one thirty still on the left at the back at one thirty, any more now at a hundred and thirty pounds? Can I have the number sir. It is eight five seven, thank you very much. And Lot two erm two receivers and an H M V pick-up attachment Lot two er fifty for these, fifty pounds anyone? Fifty pounds fifty pounds, anyone at fifty fifty pounds, no one at fifty, twenty then, twenty pounds twenty pounds at twenty, twenty bid down there, thank you, any more at twenty? Twenty pounds, twenty two twenty five, twenty eight thirty five forty, five forty five forty five, all done at forty five, now any more? At forty five, fifty standing fifty five fifty five standing at fifty five, any more? Fifty five pounds all done at fifty five, now any more at fifty sixty sixty pounds up there all done then at sixty pounds Er Lot three showing Lot three the er Radio Year Book fifty pounds anyone? At fifty pounds fifty bid,sixty seventy, seventy pounds any more at seventy? Seventy pounds, five, any more? At seventy five all done, at seventy five only, any more at seventy five pounds? Any more at seventy five. And Lot four is er an Amplion speaker Lot four and I've fifty offered, any more at fifty, alright sixty sixty pounds, any more? At sixty, all done at sixty only, sixty five, seventy five eighty five eighty five stands, any more at eighty five pounds? All done at eighty five pounds ninety good for ninety five one hundred seated and ten one ten on the right standing a hundred and ten against you all at and twenty one thirty one thirty, on the right standing, at one thirty are you all done at a hundred and thirty pounds. That's number nine O six, thank you. And Lot five there's Lot five, the er V two Lot five and I have four hundred pounds offered for this one four hundred pounds and twenty four fifty, four eighty at four hundred and eighty pounds, any more at four eighty? Five hundred five hundred now, any more at five hundred and fifty five hundred and fifty pounds, any more at five fifty?at five hundred and fifty pounds against you , are you all done? At five hundred and fifty pounds any more? For one three O. And Lot six Brownie number two and Lot six er fifty for these fifty pounds fifty, anyone at fifty? Fifty five, sixty, sixty pounds, any more at sixty five, any more, seventy, seventy five eighty five ninety ninety standing, any more at ninety, all done? At ninety only, any more at ninety pounds, all done, ninety five one hundred one ten one twenty one twenty standing, any more at a hundred and twenty? All done at a hundred and twenty pounds. nine O six, thank you. Lot seven is the Andia Cockatoo loudspeaker now showing, there it is, thank you, Lot seven and two hundred is offered for this, two hundred pounds and twenty,two twenty forty, sixty two sixty now any more at two sixty, all done? Two sixty, eighty, three hundred three hundred pounds any more at three hundred pounds, all done at three hundred pounds,and I'll sell at three hundred pounds, any more? One one two five. Whoop. Lot eight is the Pye transportable showing twenty pounds at twenty pounds twenty twenty, twenty pounds at twenty pounds twenty pounds. Lot nine is a Brownie number two thank you, there it is, Lot nine twenty for this one twenty pounds twenty twenty two twenty five twenty five seated, any more at twenty five pounds,at twenty five, twenty eight thirty thirty five forty forty five fifty fifty pounds down here any more at fifty? I'll sell at fifty pounds all done, fifty five standing standing at fifty five,sixty sixty there now, sixty five seventy seventy pounds on the right, any more? Against you on the aisle so eighty at the back now against you, all done at eighty pounds right at the back,eighty pounds, are you all done? I'll sell at eighty pounds. Number three one O thank you. Lot ten Gecophone number one and I have eighty pounds , eighty five, ninety ninety pounds, any more? Ninety five at ninety five, any more at ninety five pounds? All done then at ninety five, any more, ninety five, one hundred, one ten against you now, a hundred and ten, twenty, one thirty at one thirty with me, all done at one thirty? I shall sell then, it's with me at a hundred and thirty pounds. . Lot eleven two Pye portables, Lot eleven fifty for them, fifty anyone? At fifty pounds fifty fifty pounds at fifty pounds fifty pounds. And Lot twelve is the Ediswan mains receiver, Lot twelve and I have forty offered for this, any more at forty? Forty pounds, any more? At forty, all done then at forty five standing, fifty fifty five, sixty sixty five standing at sixty five, any more at sixty five all done at sixty five, seventy seventy five eighty eighty five ninety ninety five one hundred one ten one twenty one thirty forty one fifty sixty one sixty. one sixty, any more at a hundred and sixty pounds,at one sixty any more?thank you very much. And Lot thirteen is the Grafonola with some needle tins and things, Lot thirteen, twenty for them, twenty pounds at thirty pounds, anyone at twenty twenty pounds, twenty three, any more, twenty at twenty pounds any advance on twenty pounds, two, five eight, thirty thirty pounds against you, thirty five forty forty five fifty fifty five sixty sixty five seventy seventy five standing at seventy five pounds now, any more at seventy five at the back, I'll sell at seventy five pounds. and Lot fourteen is the cabinet now showing, thank you, Lot fourteen, fifty for it fifty pounds anywhere at fifty at fifty pounds fifty at fifty pounds fifty pounds, anywhere at fifty unwanted then at fifty pounds fifty pounds. Lot fifteen thank you, is two portables, Lot fifteen, twenty for them twenty pounds anywhere at twenty at twenty pounds any more at twenty twenty two twenty five twenty five pounds down there, twenty eight thirty thirty five forty five fifty five sixty five seventy seventy pounds seated, now any more at seventy, seventy five eighty eighty five ninety ninety five one hundred one ten one twenty one twenty seated, any more at one twenty? All done then, I'll sell at a hundred and twenty pounds. And the number is nine one seven, thank you, Lot sixteen mahogany cabinet gramophone, there it is, Lot sixteen, twenty for it twenty pounds anywhere? At twenty pounds twenty bid twenty two twenty five, twenty eight twenty eight pounds against you now, any more at twenty eight? All done at twenty eight pounds then, any more, thirty five thirty five against you standing, thirty five, all done then, at thirty five pounds, any more? Forty forty five fifty on the fifty pounds, any more at fifty and I'll sell at fifty pounds. The number is nine two seven, thank you, Lot seventeen is a Stroviol and a couple of bows to go with it, Lot seventeen and I have sixty offered for these, five, seventy five seventy five pounds, any more? At seventy five, eighty five ninety five one hundred, one ten against you now, one twenty one thirty one forty, one fifty with me, one sixty near the back at one sixty there, any more at one sixty? All done at a hundred and sixty pounds one seventy one seventy now on the one eighty one ninety one ninety two hundred two hundred pounds. All done at two hundred and I'll sell at two hundred pounds. Eight six one, thank you. Lot eighteen is the H M V Model thirteen there it is, thank you various accessories to go with it, Lot eighteen hundred pounds for it, one hundred anywhere? One hundred pounds one hundred one hundred bid, ten, twenty one thirty any more at a hundred and thirty pounds? All done at a hundred and thirty only, one forty, one fifty sixty, one seventy eighty ninety standing at one ninety, any more? All done then? Bidding two hundred two two twenty on the aisle bidding two forty bidding? Er two sixty two eighty two eighty the bid, any more at two eighty now? I'll sell at two hundred and eighty pounds are you all done at two hundred and eighty pounds. And your number? Eight six three. And Lot nineteen is the H M V Model one six three, now showing, thank you, Lot nineteen and I've three hundred offered and twenty three eighty, four hundred and twenty four eight, four fifty, four eighty at four eighty now, any more at four eighty? Four hundred and eighty pounds all done at four eighty, five hundred and fifty, six hundred and fifty at six fifty now, any more? It's with me at six hundred and fifty pounds all done at six fifty then? I'll sell at six hundred and fifty pounds any more? One three six. Lot twenty is a Pathe Gaulois glass horn, there it is now showing, Lot twenty and I have three hundred offered, three twenty three fifty three eighty, four hundred twenty fifty, four eighty at four hundred and eighty pounds any more at four eighty, five hundred and fifty five fifty, any more? Five fifty, six hundred, six fifty six hundred and fifty pounds, any more? Six seven hundred, seven fifty seven hundred and fifty eight hundred on my right now at eight hundred pounds, any more? At eight hundred, eight fifty eight fifty on my left nine hundred nine hundred pounds, any more? It's against you bidding on my right at nine hundred pounds, now any more at nine hundred pounds? You all done then,on my right nine hundred pounds any more? All done? Six six five, thank you. Lot twenty one the lacquer cabinet gramophone thank you, there it is showing, twenty for this twenty pounds anywhere at twenty twenty pounds any more at twenty? All done at twenty only, two five eight thirty five forty five forty five standing, any more at forty five pounds? Fifty fifty five sixty five seventy seventy pounds standing there, any more at seventy? I'll sell then seventy five eighty five ninety five one hundred, one ten twenty, thirty one thirty on the left now at the back one thirty are you all done at one hundred and thirty pounds? Number nine six seven, thank you. Er Lot twenty two is a Beltona portable there it is, thank you thirty offered for this, any more at thirty? Thirty pounds, any more? Five, forty at forty pounds any more? At forty, all done at forty pounds five fifty five, sixty five, seventy five, eighty five eighty five at the back, any more? Eighty five pounds then, at the back and I'll sell at eighty five, ninety on the aisle, ninety five one hundred one ten one twenty one twenty on the aisle, at one twenty, are you all done at a hundred and twenty pounds? . Now Lot twenty three a red portable one O one, there it is, Lot twenty three twenty for it twenty pounds anywhere at thirty pounds, thirty twenty bid, thank you, any more at thirty thirty five forty five fifty five sixty five seventy seventy pounds seated, any more at seventy? Five eighty eighty five ninety ninety pounds ninety are you all done and I'll sell at ninety pounds. one seven, thank you. Lot twenty four this is the model one six three there it is, thank you, I'd like two hundred offered for this one two hundred pounds any more at two hundred? Two hundred pounds, any more? At two hundred pounds, are you all done at two hundred, two twenty, two forty two sixty, two eighty three hundred, three twenty three fifty, three eighty three eighty with me now four hundred on my right at four hundred pounds, are you all done at four hundred? I shall sell then at four hundred pounds. Five seven six, thank you. Lot twenty five little red Peter Pan there it is now showing, thank you and I've a hundred pounds offered for this, any more at one hundred? One hundred pounds and ten, one twenty, one thirty, one forty one fifty, one sixty seventy, eighty, one ninety, two hundred and twenty two twenty seated, any more? At two hundred and twenty pounds two forty two sixty, two eighty three hundred three hundred pounds, three twenty on the aisle three fifty three eighty three eighty on the aisle, bidding sir?for three that bid's on the aisle, three eighty, any more at three hundred, four hundred four hundred and twenty on the aisle at four twenty, now any more at four hundred and twenty pounds and I shall sell at four hundred and twenty pounds. Lot twenty six is the Edison disc phonograph, there it is, thank you, Lot twenty six, hundred pounds for this, one hundred anywhere, one hundred pounds bid, ten, twenty, any more at one twenty, thirty one thirty now, any more? You all done at one thirty,one forty, one fifty one sixty, seventy one eighty one eighty on the right, any more? At a hundred and eighty pounds, standing on my right at a hundred and eighty pounds, are you all done? I shall sell at one hundred and eighty pounds, any more. That's number five seven six, thank you. Lot twenty seven is the cottage gramophone there it is, thank you, Lot twenty seven and I have a hundred offered and ten, twenty, one thirty forty, one fifty, any more at one fifty? One hundred and fifty, sixty, seventy one seventy now, one eighty, one ninety, two hundred and twenty, two forty, two sixty, two eighty, three hundred, three twenty in the front at three twenty now, any more? At three hundred and twenty in the front row and I'll sell at three twenty, are you all done at three hundred and twenty pounds. thank you. Lot twenty eight is a Klingsor there's the Klingsor now showing, Lot twenty eight and I have five hundred offered for it, any advance on five hundred pounds? Five hundred pounds, any more? At five hundred, all done at five fifty, six hundred six fifty, seven hundred seven hundred pounds with me now, any more? At seven hundred pounds, seven fifty eight hundred eight hundred, it's against you now, any more at eight hundred pounds still with me at eight hundred, are you all done at eight hundred pounds? I shall sell then at eight hundred pounds, against you all in the room. Number one two nine. And Lot twenty nine is a Mikkyphone, that kind of Mikkyphone, Lot twenty nine and I have a hundred pounds offered, any more at a hundred? One hundred pounds and ten, one twenty one twenty, it's against you now, one thirty, one forty, one fifty, one sixty against you at one sixty, the bid's with me at one sixty, any more? One seventy on the aisle one eighty one ninety down on the aisle at one ninety now, any more? At a hundred and ninety two hundred two twenty two twenty, any more bids? On the aisle at two twenty now, are you all done at two twenty? I'll sell then at two hundred and twenty pounds. thank you. Lot thirty is a Peter Pan there it is now showing, Lot thirty a hundred pounds for it, one hundred anywhere? One hundred pounds, one hundred and ten, one twenty thirty, forty one forty standing, any more at one forty? All done then at a hundred and forty pounds, standing at the back, one fifty one sixty one seventy, one eighty one eighty standing, any more at one eighty? It's against you seated and I'll sell at one hundred and eighty pounds, one ninety two hundred standing at two hundred now, against you seated, are you all done at two hundred pounds?six six, thank you. Lot thirty one is the Model four six one, Lot thirty one there it is now showing, thank you, fifty for it? Fifty pounds anywhere at fifty? At fifty, fifty pounds bid, five, sixty sixty pounds five, any more? Sixty five all done at sixty five now, any more? Six, seventy, thank you, standing, seventy five eighty eighty five ninety standing at ninety pounds, against you seated at ninety pounds, are you all done? I shall sell then at ninety pounds, any more, ninety five ninety five on my left, now any more at ninety five pounds? I'll sell at ninety five. Number eight six , thank you. Lot thirty two is the H M V one O one showing now, Lot thirty two and I have fifty offered for these, five, sixty sixty pounds any more at sixty? At sixty pounds, five, seventy five, eighty five, ninety ninety pounds, any more? Ninety five one hundred standing standing at a hundred pounds now, any more? At a hundred pounds, are you all done? And ten one hundred and ten up here on my right, any more at a hundred and ten pounds? I shall sell then at one hundred, and twenty one twenty,at a hundred and twenty pounds, are you all finished at one hundred and twenty pounds? And thirty, just in time, any more then at a hundred and thirty pounds. And the number's , thank you. Lot thirty three is a horn gramophone there showing, thank you, Lot thirty three erm a hundred and fifty offered for this one hundred and fifty pounds, any more? One fifty, one sixty, one seventy one seventy now, any more at a hundred and seventy? All done then at a hundred and seventy, one eighty seated, one ninety two hundred, two twenty, forty two sixty two hundred and sixty pounds, any more at two sixty? All done at a hundred and sixty, any more at two two eighty seated then at two hundred and eighty pounds any more, are you all done? At two hundred and eighty pounds. nine three, thank you. Lot thirty four another horn gramophone now showing, thank you and I have two hundred offered for this,twenty, two forty, two sixty, any more at two sixty? Two eighty, three hundred, three twenty, three fifty, three eighty on my right at three eighty now, any more? At three hundred and eighty pounds there and I shall sell at three hundred and eighty pounds. thank you. Lot thirty five is the French phonograph now showing, Lot thirty five a hundred is offered for this, one hundred pounds and ten, one twenty, one thirty, any more at one thirty? One hundred and thirty pounds, any more? One forty, one fifty sixty, one seventy eighty, one ninety, two hundred and twenty forty, sixty one sixty, any more? Two sixty , two eighty two eighty down there now any more at two eighty? You all done then at two hundred and eighty pounds? Three hundred seated three twenty three twenty standing, all done at three twenty and I'll sell at three hundred and twenty pounds, three fifty three eighty three hundred and eighty pounds standing, any more? Bidding? Four hundred four twenty four twenty standing, any more? Four twenty standing then and I'll sell at four hundred and twenty pounds. Nine seven six, thank you. And Lot thirty six is a Puck there it is, thank you, Lot thirty six, fifty for this fifty pounds anywhere at fifty? Fifty pounds fifty bid, thank you, fifty five sixty sixty five, seventy, five, eighty, five, ninety, five one hundred, one ten twenty, thirty, forty, one fifty one sixty one sixty at the back, any more at one sixty? I shall sell then, one seventy new bidder one seventy on the aisle, now any more at a hundred and seventy, one eighty one eighty at the back again, all done then at a hundred and eighty pounds. thank you. Lot thirty seven is an Edison Gem phonograph as you can see it has some cylinders with it er fifty pounds for it, fifty pounds any bids, five, sixty, five, seventy five, eighty, ninety, one hundred a hundred pounds and ten any more at a hundred and ten? One hundred and ten pounds, any more? One twenty, one thirty one forty, one fifty sixty, one seventy, one eighty one eighty up here, any more at one eighty? One ninety two hundred, two twenty two forty, two sixty two sixty seated, any more at two sixty? All done then at two hundred and sixty pounds two eighty new bidder three hundred three hundred pounds, all done at three hundred then I'll sell at three hundred pounds. thank you. Lot thirty eight is the mahogany Monarch with brass horn now showing, thank you, I've five hundred pounds offered, any more at five hundred? Five hundred pounds, any more? At five fifty, six hundred and fifty, seven hundred and fifty, eight hundred and fifty, nine hundred and fifty, one thousand one hundred, two hundred, three hundred, four hundred five hundred at one thousand five hundred pounds on my right, six hundred seven hundred one thousand seven hundred pounds on my right now, any more at one thousand seven hundred pounds? I shall sell then at one thousand seven hundred pounds. Number nine seven six, thank you. And Lot thirty nine is four six O, there it is, Lot thirty nine two hundred offered for it, any more at two hundred, and twenty two hundred and twenty pounds, any more? At two forty, two sixty two eighty, three hundred three twenty, three fifty three eighty, four hundred and twenty, four fifty four eighty, five hundred, and fifty five fifty standing now, any more? At five hundred and fifty pounds, all done then? Six hundred new bidder six, six fifty six fifty standing seven hundred, seven fifty seven fifty standing, all done at seven fifty then and I shall sell at seven hundred and fifty pounds. one two, thank you. Lot forty is the Zonophone advertisement now showing, thank you, Lot forty for which I have eighty pounds offered, ninety, one hundred and ten, one twenty, one thirty one thirty standing, any more at one thirty? All done? Standing at the back, one thirty and I'll sell at one hundred and thirty pounds. thank you. Lot forty one Edison Gem there it is, Lot forty one eighty is offered for this eighty pounds, ninety, one hundred one hundred against you now, any more? At a hundred pounds, all done then at a hundred and ten , twenty one thirty, one forty fifty, one sixty seventy, one eighty one eighty with me, it's , any more at one eighty? I shall sell then at a hundred and eighty pounds, are you all done at one eighty? Lot forty two two Columbia portables there they are now, thank you, Lot forty two, fifty for them fifty pounds anywhere for the portables? Twenty then, twenty pounds twenty pounds at the back, any more? Twenty two five eight standing twenty eight pounds standing now, any more at twenty eight, thirty, thirty five, forty forty five, fifty fifty pounds on my right, any more at fifty? Fifty five fifty five at the back, any more at fifty five pounds? Sixty on the aisle sixty five sixty five standing, all done at sixty five pounds? I shall sell then at sixty five pounds seventy, just in time, any more at seventy? It's on the aisle now at seventy pounds. And that number is nine two seven, thank you. And Lot forty three is an H M V one O one and a Columbia as well thank you, Lot forty three and I have forty offered for these, any more at forty? Five, fifty five, sixty sixty pounds with me, any more? Sixty five, seventy, five, eighty eighty pounds, any more? Five, ninety ninety pounds with me, any more at ninety? I'll sell them at ninety pounds, ninety five, one hundred one hundred pounds still with me, any more? Are you all done at one hundred pounds. six one. Lot forty four there it is now showing, Lot forty four twenty for this, twenty pounds anywhere? At twenty two in the Lot twenty pounds anywhere? Twenty bid, twenty two five, eight thirty five thirty five pounds, any more? Forty forty pounds standing, any more at forty? Bidding? Standing then at forty pounds, are you all done and I'll sell, forty five fifty fifty pounds standing, any more at fifty? Are you all done then at fifty pounds and I shall sell at fifty pounds. Nine six O, thank you. And Lot forty five thank you, Lot forty five is that's Lot forty five an Edison Home phonograph Lot forty five, an Edison Home phonograph with H reproducer and large brass horn and I have two hundred pounds offered for it, two hundred pounds, any more at two hundred? Two hundred and twenty, two forty, two sixty, two eighty, three hundred, three twenty, three fifty, three eighty three eighty, it's against you now, any more at three eighty? The bid's with me at three hundred and eighty pounds and I shall sell, are you all done at three hundred and eighty pounds. . Lot forty six Trade-Mark gramophone, there it is on the screen now, Lot forty six I've a thousand pounds offered for this, one thousand pounds, any advance on a thousand? One hundred two hundred three hundred, four hundred five hundred, six hundred seven hundred one thousand seven hundred pounds standing, any more? One thousand eight hundred nine hundred two thousand two thousand two hundred two thousand two hundred pounds, any more? Two thousand four hundred two thousand six hundred standing at two thousand six hundred pounds, any more? Two thousand six hundred pounds and I shall sell at two thousand six hundred pounds. Three two seven, thank you. Lot forty seven is five postcards there's the two, there they are twenty pounds for them twenty anywhere? At twenty pounds twenty twenty pounds twenty is bid, thank you, in the doorway, any more at twenty? I'll sell them at twenty pounds then, in a single bid, are you all done at twenty pounds? Any more, it's in the doorway at twenty pounds twenty two twenty two near me now, any more at twenty two pounds? All finished at twenty two, twenty five twenty eight twenty eight still , twenty eight then, all done now at twenty eight pounds. Number nine one five, thank you. Lot forty eight a Style number six now showing, thank you, Lot forty eight and I have three hundred offered, three twenty, three fifty three hundred and fifty pounds, any more at three fifty? All done, three eighty, four hundred four twenty, four fifty, four eighty, five hundred and fifty, six hundred and fifty, seven hundred and fifty at seven hundred and fifty pounds, any more? Eight hundred and fifty nine hundred and fifty one thousand one hundred two hundred three hundred one thousand, one thousand three hundred pounds then one thousand three hundred pounds, all done? One thousand three on my right standing and I'll sell at one thousand three hundred pounds. Nine seven six, thank you. And Lot forty nine is the drip-pan Gem there it is, Lot forty nine a hundred pounds offered, hundred and ten, one twenty, one thirty, any more at one thirty? Forty, one fifty, sixty seventy eighty one ninety two hundred and twenty forty . sixty two eighty three hundred three twenty three fifty three eighty four hundred four twenty four fifty four eighty five hundred and fifty five fifty on the right then, any more at five hundred and fifty and I'll sell at five hundred and fifty pounds. Nine seven six, thank you. And Lot fifty is a suitcase Standard, there it is now, Lot fifty for which I have a hundred and fifty offered, sixty, one seventy, one eighty one ninety two hundred, two twenty two forty, two sixty two eighty, three hundred and twenty, three twenty seated, any more? At three twenty, all done then at three twenty now seated and I'll sell at three hundred and twenty pounds. Number eight nine three. Lot fifty one is a suitcase Home, there it is now showing, Lot fifty one, two hundred for this two hundred anywhere? Two hundred pounds anywhere? Two hundred, two hundred bid and twenty forty , two sixty, two eighty three hundred three twenty three twenty now, any more? At three twenty, three fifty standing, three eighty four hundred four hundred pounds standing, now any more at four hundred? Bidding sir?four hundred standing, four twenty on the aisle four fifty four fifty standing at the back, any more at four fifty? Four eighty five hundred down there five fifty at five fifty there now, any more? At five fifty, it's against you all on the left, at five fifty, any more at five hundred and fifty pounds?is nine seven six, thank you. Lot fifty two is an Excelsior there it is, Lot fifty two, hundred for, one hundred anywhere? One hundred bid and ten, one twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, one sixty, seventy, eighty, ninety, two hundred, two twenty, two forty, two sixty eighty two hundred and eighty pounds standing any more? Three hundred, three twenty three fifty, three eighty four hundred four hundred on my right now, any more at four hundred? I shall sell then at four hundred pounds. Nine seven six, thank you. Lot fifty three is an Edison Gem there it is you can see it now Lot fifty three and I have a hundred and fifty offered for this, sixty, one seventy, one eighty ninety, two hundred two hundred, yes, two hundred and twenty, two forty, two sixty two sixty near the back seated, any more? Two eighty three hundred, three twenty three twenty standing, any more at three twenty? All done then and I'll sell at three hundred and twenty pounds. Nine two three, thank you. Lot fifty four is the Fireside Fireside Fireside horn, there it is, thank you, Lot fifty four two hundred offered, twenty, forty, two sixty two hundred and sixty pounds, any more? At two sixty, all done at two sixty only? Two eighty, three hundred three twenty three fifty, three eighty, four hundred and twenty four fifty eighty five hundred and fifty, six hundred and fifty six hundred and fifty pounds, any more at six fifty? Seven hundred seven fifty seven hundred and fifty pounds, all done then and I'll sell at seven hundred and fifty pounds. seven six, thank you. Lot fifty five four phonograph horns and Lot fifty five, fifty for them fifty pounds anywhere? At fifty bid, thank you, five sixty, five seventy, five against you seventy five, eighty eighty five ninety at ninety pounds up here, any more? Ninety five one hundred one ten one twenty one thirty one hundred and thirty seated, one forty one fifty one sixty one sixty standing, any more? Bidding? Standing then at one sixty, are you all done, one seventy, one eighty, one ninety two hundred two twenty two twenty on the left standing, any more at two twenty? All done then? Two forty two forty standing at the back now, all done at two hundred and forty pounds. Nine two four, thank you. And Lot fifty six is the gramophone horn basket there it is, thank you, with the horn inside er fifty is offered for this, fifty five, sixty, five, sixty five pounds, any more? Seventy, seventy five, eighty five ninety, ninety five one hundred, one ten, one twenty, one thirty, forty one forty down there, any more at one forty? All done? Any more at one hundred, one fifty one sixty, one sixty in the centre, any more? Seventy one seventy, one eighty one eighty one eighty, are you all done at one hundred and eighty pounds seated in the centre. number is nine one seven, thank you. Lot fifty seven is the car mascot there it is, Lot fifty seven I've a hundred and fifty offered for this, sixty, one seventy, one eighty one hundred and eighty pounds, any more? One eighty, one ninety two hundred, two twenty, two forty two forty now, any more? Two sixty, two eighty two eighty, three hundred three twenty three fifty three eighty four hundred four twenty four fifty four fifty at the back on the right, any more at four fifty? Four eighty against you now at five hundred five fifty five fifty seated, any more at five fifty, it's against you all on the right now five hundred and fifty pounds. Number again is nine one seven, thank you. Fifty seven A, an additional Lot the H M V Silver Shield, there it is now a hundred pounds for this, one hundred anywhere? One hundred pounds one hundred pounds for the Silver Shield is bid, thank you, any more at a hundred? One hundred pounds now, any more? At a hundred and ten , twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, sixty, seventy, eighty, ninety, two hundred two hundred pounds seated near the back, two twenty standing any more at two twenty,at two twenty , two forty two forty seated now, any more at forty? I shall sell then at two hundred and forty pounds, two sixty two sixty on my right, any more at two hundred and pounds? And the number is eight six eight, thank you very much. Lot fifty eight collection of record pads and bits and pieces for which I have a hundred pounds offered, and ten, one twenty, one thirty, any more at one thirty, forty, one fifty, one sixty, one seventy one eighty, one ninety, two hundred, two twenty two forty two forty on the left at the back, any more at two forty, two sixty, two eighty two eighty three hundred three twenty three twenty on the left near the back now, at three twenty, are you, it's your bid, sir, at three twenty pounds , any more at three twenty and I'll sell at three hundred and twenty pounds. number is nine five eight, thank you. Lot fifty nine gramophone spare parts this one, Lot fifty nine for which I have two hundred pounds offered and twenty, two fifty, two eighty, three hundred and twenty, any more at three twenty? Three fifty, three eighty three hundred and eighty pounds now, any more, it's against you all at three hundred and eighty, any more? Four hundred four hundred pounds and twenty yes four twenty bid's with me now at four twenty and I'll sell at four hundred and twenty pounds. One three six. And Lot sixty Edison Combination Attachments there we are, Lot sixty er fifty for these, fifty pounds anywhere? At fifty, fifty pounds twenty then, twenty pounds twenty pounds bid, twenty two, five eight, thirty, five, forty, five, fifty five fifty five pounds, any more? Sixty five seventy seventy five eighty eighty five ninety, five one hundred one ten twenty thirty one forty fifty one sixty standing at one sixty now, any more at one sixty? And I shall sell at a hundred and sixty pounds. , thank you. And Lot sixty one phonograph spare parts this time there we are, Lot sixty one and I have a hundred offered and ten, one twenty, one thirty any more? One forty, one fifty, one sixty, seventy, one eighty one ninety, two hundred and twenty there standing at two twenty, two forty, two sixty two six two eighty three hundred three hundred pounds , any more at three hundred? All done at three hundred now, all done? Three hundred pounds. thank you. And Lot sixty two is the Edison ephemera, Lot sixty two, and I've a hundred offered for this, one hundred pounds, any more? At a hundred pounds, any more at a hundred, and ten, one twenty one thirty, one forty fifty, one sixty seventy, one eighty one ninety, two hundred two hundred pounds , against you at the back, two hundred, two twenty front row now at two hundred and twenty pounds, two forty, two sixty two eighty three hundred and twenty three twenty on the right seated, any more at three twenty? It's against you at the front and I'll sell at three hundred and twenty pounds. , thank you. And Lot sixty three is the red Gem carrier arm now showing with an N reproducer I have sixty pounds offered, any more at sixty? Sixty pounds, any more? At sixty, all done then at sixty pounds any more? I'll sell at sixty, sixty five, seventy seventy five, eighty eighty five, ninety ninety pounds with me, it's against you seated, at ninety pounds, all done now and I shall sell at ninety pounds, any more at ninety pounds. six O. Lot sixty four is er advertising items, records and other bits and pieces for which I have sixty pounds offered, any more at sixty five seventy five, eighty five, ninety five, one hundred ten, one twenty thirty, one forty, one hundred and forty pounds with me, are you all done, one fifty in the middle, one sixty one seventy one hundred and seventy, any more? At a hundred and seventy pounds seated on the right one eighty standing one ninety one ninety on the right seated, any more at one ninety, all done then at one hundred and ninety, two hundred two twenty two twenty, any more? Against you at two twenty two forty two sixty two sixty seated on the right, any more at two sixty? At two sixty then, there I'll sell at two hundred and sixty pounds. Eight two two, thank you. Lot sixty five is an album of postcards, Lot sixty five for which I have four hundred pounds offered and twenty, four fifty, four eighty four hundred and eighty pounds, five hundred five hundred now and fifty, six hundred and fifty, six fifty, any more? At six hundred and fifty pounds seven hundred, seven fifty eight hundred and fifty nine hundred nine hundred pounds on the right seated, any more? At nine hundred pounds now, all done? At nine hundred and I shall sell at nine hundred pounds down there at nine hundred pounds. thank you. Lot sixty six is the Columbia B Q, there it is, Lot sixty six four hundred pounds offered, four twenty, four fifty four hundred and fifty pounds, any more? Four eighty, five hundred and fifty, six hundred and fifty seven hundred and fifty, eight hundred against you now at eight hundred and fifty seated there at the back at eight fifty nine hundred standing at nine hundred, nine fifty, one thousand one thousand pounds, any more? One thousand pounds, standing at the back then at one thousand pounds, against you seated and I'll sell at one thousand, any more at one thousand pounds?thank you. Lot sixty seven thank you, is the typewriter showing now, Lambert typewriter hundred pounds for it, one hundred anywhere? One hundred pounds , thank you, any more at a hundred? One hundred pounds and ten one twenty, one thirty, forty, one fifty one sixty, one seventy, one eighty, one ninety, two hundred on my right at two hundred pounds, any more? At two twenty two forty two sixty two eighty three hundred and twenty, three twenty on my right, any more at thee twenty, three fifty three eighty three eighty on my right, all done at three eighty and I shall sell at three hundred and eighty pounds. thank you. Lot sixty eight Edison stand, there it is now, Lot sixty eight er three hundred is offered for this, three hundred pounds and twenty, three fifty three eighty, any more at three eighty? Four hundred four hundred and twenty, four fifty four eighty, five hundred and fifty, six hundred and fifty, seven hundred and fifty, near the back, seven fifty seated, any more? Eight hundred eight fifty nine hundred nine fifty one thousand one thousand pounds standing now on my right, any more at a thousand pounds, are you all done, it's up there and I'll sell at one thousand pounds. Nine seven six, thank you very much. And Lot sixty nine Edison Standard, there it is, Lot sixty nine, two hundred is offered for this, and twenty, any more at two twenty? Two forty two forty now, any more at two forty, sixty, two eighty, three hundred, three twenty three twenty with me now three fifty at the back, three fifty, any more? At three fifty and I'll sell at three hundred and fifty pounds. Eight nine three, thank you. Lot seventy Edison Bell Standard, there is no horn included with this Lot, please note, Lot seventy and I have two hundred pounds offered and twenty, two forty, sixty, two eighty three hundred and twenty, three fifty, three eighty, four hundred, four hundred pounds against you then at the back now, any more at four hundred, it's with me, four twenty, four fifty, four eighty on my left seated at four eighty any more now at four hundred and eighty pounds? And it's eight six three, thank you very much. Lot seventy one a Stroviol now showing and I have fifty pounds offered, five, sixty, five, seventy seventy pounds, any more? At seventy five, eighty, five, ninety five ninety five at the back now, any more? One hundred and ten, one twenty one twenty seated, any more at one twenty? Bidding? One thirty one forty one forty now, any more? One fifty one sixty on the aisle, one seventy one eighty any more? One ninety one ninety, two hundred two hundred pounds near the back, any more? Two twenty on my left up here, any more at two twenty? I shall sell then at two hundred and twenty pounds. The number is is it eight six three? Er Lot seventy two someone fed up? At fifty for it's offered fifty pounds at fifty pounds bid five, sixty sixty pounds, any more? At sixty all done at sixty? Sixty five seventy five eighty five eighty five up here, any more? At eighty five now, all done at eighty five pounds, all done on my right and I'll sell at eighty five pounds is there's no further bids at eighty five pounds. , thank you. Lot seventy three is the Moscow Pathephone, there it is, Lot seventy three, fifty for this one fifty pounds anywhere? At fifty bid, five, sixty, five, seventy, five, eighty eighty five, ninety, five, one hundred, one ten one twenty, one thirty, one forty, one fifty, one sixty one sixty at the back, any more at one sixty? All done then at a hundred and sixty pounds at the back. Eight two six. Lot seventy four is the Concert that's it, yes there it is the er Edison Concert, Lot seventy four five hundred offered for starters, five hundred pounds, any more at five hundred? Fifty, six hundred and fifty, seven hundred, seven hundred pounds, any more? At seven hundred pounds, all done at seven hundred and fifty, eight hundred, and fifty, nine hundred, and fifty, one thousand one hundred, two hundred, three hundred, four hundred, five hundred at one thousand five hundred on the right now, any more? One thousand five hundred pounds, six hundred, seven hundred, eight hundred nine hundred, two thousand, two thousand two hundred, thousand four hundred, thousand six hundred, thousand eight hundred, three thousand three thousand pounds on my right there, now any more? At three thousand pounds then, are you all done at three thousand pounds. Number nine seven six, thank you. Lot seventy five is the reproduction Berliner, there it is, Lot seventy five hundred for , one hundred pounds anywhere? One hundred pounds is bid, thank you, any more? And ten against you now at a hundred and ten pounds, one twenty on the aisle, one thirty, one forty, one fifty, one sixty, near me at one sixty, any more at a hundred and sixty pounds, seventy one eighty one ninety any more? Two hundred two hundred pounds against you now at the back, now any more at two hundred? Are you all done then? It's up here and I'll sell two twenty new bidder two twenty now two twenty then it's half way down on the left at two twenty and I'll sell at two two forty two sixty still against you two sixty, it's down there and I'll sell at two hundred and sixty pounds. is eight six four, thank you. Seventy six thank you, is the Victor now showing, Lot seventy six, two hundred offered for this, two hundred pounds and twenty, any more? Forty, two sixty, two eighty, three hundred, three twenty, three fifty, three eighty standing at three eighty now, any more? At three eighty then, all done at three eighty, four hundred and twenty four fifty, four eighty five hundred and fifty six hundred and fifty six hundred and fifty standing, any more at six fifty? Seven hundred, seven fifty standing at seven fifty, any more? All done, seven hundred and fifty then and I'll sell at seven hundred and fifty pounds. six six. Lot seventy seven is a Style four gramophone and there it is, Lot seventy seven three hundred offered for this one, three hundred pounds and twenty three fifty, any more at three fifty? Three hundred and fifty pounds, all done then? Three eighty, four hundred four twenty, four fifty four eighty, five hundred and fifty six hundred and fifty, seven hundred and fifty it's on the left at seven fifty now, eight hundred behind you against you now eight fifty nine hundred standing nine fifty one thousand one thousand pounds standing on the left at the back, one hundred two hundred three hundred, one one thousand three hundred pounds, that's against any more at one thousand three hundred, four hundred, five hundred one thousand five hundred standing, any more? One thousand five hundred pounds then, are you all done at one thousand five hundred pounds?thank you. Lot seventy eight is the red Gem now showing, thank you, Lot seventy eight for which I have three hundred offered, and twenty, three fifty, three eighty four hundred, any more at four hundred? Four hundred pounds and twenty, four fifty, four eighty, five hundred and fifty, six hundred and fifty, seven hundred seven hundred pounds with me now, any more at seven hundred pounds? Against you all, seven fifty at the back now standing at seven hundred and fifty pounds, are you all done at seven fifty? I'll sell at seven hundred and fifty pounds. Nine two three. Lot seventy nine is the Pathe now showing, Lot seventy nine and I have pounds offered for it and sixty, any more at one sixty? Seventy, one eighty, one ninety, two hundred at two hundred pounds, against you, any more? Two hundred and twenty, two forty two sixty on my right now at two sixty, any more? At two hundred and sixty pounds and I'll sell at two hundred and sixty pounds. Number nine seven six, thank you. Lot eighty Edison Bell Gem, there it is, Lot eighty hundred for it, hundred pounds anywhere? One hundred pounds, one hundred for the Gem, one hundred pounds one hundred pounds bid, thank you, and ten twenty, thirty, forty, one fifty, one sixty, seventy, one eighty, ninety, two hundred, two twenty, two forty, two sixty two sixty seated, any more at two sixty? Two eighty three hundred and twenty three twenty, all done then at three twenty, any more at three hundred and twen three fifty new bidder against you at the back now, bid's on my left at three fifty and I'll sell, the bid's here at three hundred and fifty pounds. Er eight six three, thank you very much. Lot eighty one is the Victor thank you, there it is now showing, Lot eighty one a hundred and fifty is offered for this, one hundred and fifty pounds, any more? At one sixty, one seventy eighty, one ninety two hundred, two twenty forty, two sixty two eighty two eighty at the back seated, any more at two eighty? Three hundred sir,twenty, three fifty, three eighty, four hundred, four twenty, fifty, four eighty, five hundred five hundred you offered five hundred? Five hundred pounds standing, against you seated now, any more? At five hundred then five fifty in the front here at five fifty, are you all done at five hundred and fifty pounds? Up here. , thanks very much. Lot eighty two an Edison Amberola seventy five now on the screen, Lot eighty two and I have three hundred pounds offered for this, any more? Three hundred and twenty, three fifty three hundred and fifty pounds now, it's with me still at three fifty, any more? Three fifty then and I shall sell at three fifty, three eighty, four hundred four hundred pounds now, still with me at four hundred, against you all in the room and I'll sell at four hundred pounds. Four four six. Lot eighty three is a Busy Bee there's the Busy Bee, Lot eighty three , hundred pounds for it? Hundred pounds anywhere? One hundred is bid, ten, twenty, one thirty, any more at one thirty? One hundred and thirty pounds, any more? All done at one thirty, any more one fifty sixty, seventy one eighty one, one ninety two hundred two twenty two forty two forty at the very back there, any more at two forty? All done then at two hundred and forty pounds, all done? Two hundred and, two sixty two eighty two eighty standing at two eighty against you seated and I'll sell at two hundred and eighty pounds. Number three one O, thank you. Lot eighty four is the New Compton now showing, Lot eighty four, two hundred is offered, any more at two hundred? Two hundred pounds, any more? Two twenty forty, two sixty, two eighty, three hundred, and twenty, three fifty standing at three fifty then, any more? At three hundred eighty, four hundred four twenty, four fifty standing at four hundred and fifty pounds, any more? Four eighty, five hundred five hundred pounds, five fifty, six hundred at six hundred pounds standing now against you all seated, six fifty six fifty seated on the aisle at six hundred and fifty pounds, are you all done at six hundred and fifty pounds. Nine two eight, thank you. And Lot eighty five now showing, thank you, a Zon-O-Phone, Lot eighty five two hundred offered, any more at two hundred? Two twenty, forty two sixty, any more at two sixty? Two hundred and sixty pounds, all done at two sixty? Two eighty, three hundred, and twenty against you there at three twenty it's there, are you all done? Three fifty three eighty three hundred and eighty pounds, four hundred and twenty four fifty four fifty on my right now, any more at four fifty? Four eighty four eighty on the left, all done at four eighty and I shall sell then at four hundred and eighty pounds. four eighty. thank you. Lot eighty six is a Junior Monarch there it is now, eighty six, two hundred offered, twenty two forty, two sixty, any more at two sixty? Two eighty, three hundred three twenty, three fifty three eighty, four hundred four twenty, four fifty four eighty four eighty standing, any more? Five hundred five fifty six hundred and fifty, seven hundred and fifty, eight hundred eight hundred pounds seated now, eight fifty nine hundred nine fifty, one thousand, one hundred one thousand one hundred pounds now, any more at one thousand one hundred and I shall sell then at one thousand one hundred pounds. Nine seven six, thank you. Lot eighty seven Edison Gem there it is a hundred and fifty is offered and sixty, one seventy, any more at one seventy? One eighty, one ninety, any more at one ninety? One, two hundred, two twenty against you now at two twenty, any more at two twenty? The bid's with me, two forty two forty now, any more at two forty? All done? It's down there at two forty at two fifty still against you at two fifty, any more? Two fifty then, all done at two hundred and fifty pounds. . Lot eighty eight is another similar Gem, there it is, thank you, Lot eighty eight and I've a hundred and fifty offered for this one sixty seventy, one eighty, one ninety, two hundred, and twenty, two forty two forty, any more at two forty? All done then two fifty on the left at two fifty now, sixty two sixty, two seventy eighty two eighty then, all done at two hundred and eighty pounds. Er eight ninety, thank you. Lot eighty nine is a new Cecil Zonophone, there it is, thank you, a hundred is offered for this one, a hundred pounds one hundred pounds anywhere, one hundred one hundred bid on the aisle, thank you, any more? At a hundred pounds, all done at a hundred ? One ten twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, one sixty, seventy, eighty one eighty on the aisle, any more at one eighty, it's your bid, sir one eighty, any more? One ninety standing two hundred, two twenty, two forty, two sixty, two eighty three hundred three hundred pounds standing, any more at three hundred? I shall sell then at three hundred pounds. Nine two four. Lot ninety is a Dulcephone there it is, Lot ninety, thank you and I have er four hundred offered for this, four hundred pounds and twenty, four fifty, four eighty, five hundred, and fifty, six hundred and fifty six fifty standing, seven hundred and fifty, eight hundred and fifty nine hundred and fifty, one thousand, one hundred, two hundred, three hundred, four hundred one thousand four hundred at the front, any more? One thousand five hundred six hundred bidding? One thousand six hundred pounds here, seven hundred one thousand eight hundred nine hundred, two thousand two thousand pounds, any more at two thousand pounds? All done, it's against you two thousand, are you all done at two thousand pounds standing on my right then and I'll sell at two thousand pounds. And it's nine seven six, thank you. Lot ninety one Intermediate Monarch mahogany, there it is and I have six hundred offered for this and fifty, seven hundred and fifty, eight hundred at the back, eight fifty against you now at eighty fifty, any more? Nine hundred, nine fifty one thousand one hundred one thousand one hundred with me, any more? Two hundred, three hundred, four hundred one thousand four hundred pounds, any more? At one thousand four hundred on my right and I'll sell at one thousand four hundred pounds. Nine seven six, thank you. Lot ninety two is reproducer there it is, Lot ninety two er, eighty pounds for this, eighty pounds eighty pounds anywhere? Eighty bid, thank you five ninety, five, one hundred one hundred on the aisle, any more? And ten, one twenty, thirty, forty, one fifty, sixty, seventy, eighty one eighty on the aisle, any more at one eighty? I shall sell then at one ninety against you on the aisle now, two hundred new bidder two hundred pounds on the left at two hundred, are you all done? I'll sell at two hundred pounds. Nine four O, thank you. Lot ninety three, a Kastenpuck there it is and I have a hundred offered for this, and ten, one twenty, one thirty, one forty, one fifty, sixty, seventy, eighty, ninety, two hundred, and twenty, two forty, two sixty, two eighty three hundred and twenty three twenty, three fifty three fifty, any more? At three fifty three eighty three eighty , any more? Three eighty four hundred four hundred pounds in the front now, any more at four hundred pounds? All done then at four hundred pounds any more?one five. Lot ninety four is the Peter Pan now showing, thank you, and I have sixty offered, five, seventy, five eighty, five, eighty five pounds now, any more? At eighty five ninety ninety five one hundred, one ten one twenty, one twenty on the aisle, any more at one twenty? All done then? One thirty one forty one forty on the aisle, one forty then and I shall sell at one fifty also on aisle, one sixty one sixty now near me on the aisle at one sixty, are you all done at a hundred and sixty pounds?six seven. Lot ninety five the three twenty Pathe discs, Lot ninety five erm fifty for them? Fifty pounds for these, fifty anywhere? At fifty pounds, anywhere at fifty? Fifty pounds fifty is bid, thank you, standing, any more at fifty? Fifty five sixty, five seventy five eighty five ninety ninety pounds standing, any more? At ninety pounds, ninety five one hundred one ten twenty thirty one forty one fifty bidding? One sixty one seventy one eighty standing at a hundred and eighty pounds, are you all done? One eighty and I'll sell at one hundred and eighty pounds. four six, thank you. Lot ninety six is the Ampico rolls, Lot ninety six, fifty for them? Fifty pounds anywhere? At fifty pounds, fifty fifty pounds anywhere fifty fifty pounds fifty pounds. Ninety seven there it is now showing, Lot ninety seven, singing bird in cage I have three hundred offered for this, three hundred pounds and twenty, three fifty, three eighty, four hundred and twenty, fifty four eighty five hundred fifty six hundred and fifty, seven hundred fifty eight hundred eight hundred pounds seated now, any more at eight hundred and fifty nine hundred and fifty nine fifty nine fifty, one thousand new bidder thousand one hundred one thousand one hundred pounds, any more? At one thousand one hundred pounds on the right at the back, any more at one thousand one hundred pounds. Eight seven five, thank you. Lot ninety eight cabinet roller organ, there it is, Lot ninety eight two hundred offered, two hundred pounds, any more? Two twenty, forty, sixty, two eighty, three hundred and twenty, three fifty, three eighty, four hundred and twenty, four fifty, four eighty, five hundred five hundred now, any more? Five fifty, six hundred and fifty seven hundred and fifty eight hundred eight hundred pounds near the back seated at eight hundred, any more? Eight fifty nine hundred nine fifty nine fifty on the right, any more at nine fifty? All done at nine hundred and fifty pounds. Nine seven six, thank you. Lot ninety nine Griesbaum figure, there it is, thank you and I have two hundred offered and twenty, fifty, two eighty, three hundred three hundred pounds, any more? Twenty, three fifty, three eighty four hundred and twenty, four fifty four eighty, five hundred and fifty, six hundred six hundred pounds against you now, it's with me at six hundred pounds, are you all done? At six fifty new bidder at six fifty now, any more at six hundred and fifty pounds. The number is eight seven three, thank you. Lot one hundred is the Weber upright Duo-Art piano, Lot one hundred, two hundred pounds offered, two hundred pounds, any more at two hundred? Two hundred pounds, any more? Two hundred two twenty, two forty two sixty, two eighty bidding? Three hundred, three twenty can't see you three fifty, three eighty four hundred and twenty four fifty four fifty down there, any more? At four fifty, all done? Four eighty five hundred and fifty six hundred and fifty seven hundred seven hundred pounds on my right then, any more bids down there at seven hundred and I'll sell at seven hundred pounds. And the number here is nine seven six, thank you. Lot one hundred and one thank you, is the Rogers Ampico piano, Lot a hundred and one, I've five hundred offered, five hundred pounds, any more at five hundred? Fifty five hundred and fifty now, any more? At five hundred and fifty pounds, any more at five fifty? Five hundred and fifty pounds, any more at five fifty? All done at five fifty only? Six hundred and fifty six fifty any more? Six fifty only then bidding? All done then at six hundred and fifty pounds, any more at six hundred and fifty. Lot one hundred and two there it is now, Lot one hundred and two and I have six hundred offered for this, six hundred and fifty, seven hundred and fifty, any more at seven fifty? Seven hundred and fifty pounds, any more at seven fifty? At seven hundred and fifty pounds, are you all done at seven hundred and fifty? At seven sixty, seven eighty seven eighty now, all done at seven hundred and eighty pounds. Lot a hundred and three Ariston now showing, thank you, Lot a hundred and three, a hundred for it, one hundred pounds is bid and ten, one twenty, thirty forty, one fifty, sixty seventy one eighty ninety two hundred two hundred pounds, any more at two hundred? Two twenty two forty two sixty two eighty two hundred and eighty three hundred three twenty three fifty three eighty four hundred and twenty four hundred and twenty pounds down there, any more then at four hundred and twenty pounds? Eight five three, thank you. Now Lot one hundred and four there it is now showing, thank you, Lot a hundred and four, Simplex fifty for it, fifty pounds anywhere? At fifty pounds anywhere at fifty? At fifty pounds, twenty , twenty pounds twenty pounds twenty pounds, no one want it for twenty pounds is bid, thank you, on my right, any advance on twenty? Twenty pounds only and I shall sell if there's no further bid, are you all done? Twenty two now twenty five twenty eight thirty thirty five forty forty five bidding? Fifty fifty five sixty sixty five sixty five, seventy seventy five, eighty eighty pounds standing any more, it's against you seated there at eighty pounds. Three two four, thank you. Lot a hundred and five is the Celestina now showing, Lot a hundred and five and I have a hundred and fifty offered for this, and sixty, one seventy, one eighty one ninety any more at a hundred and ninety pounds? Two hundred and twenty two twenty with me still, any more? Two twenty, forty, sixty two eighty, three hundred and twenty, fifty three eighty, four hundred and twenty on the right at four twenty there, any more? At four twenty then and I shall sell at four hundred and twenty pounds. That is number nine seven six again, thank you. Lot one hundred and six table barrel organ, there it is, Lot one hundred and six and I have two hundred offered and twenty, two fifty, two eighty, three hundred and twenty three fifty, three eighty, four hundred and twenty, four fifty there at four fifty now, any more? At four hundred and fifty pounds, all done then at four fifty and I'll sell at four hundred and fifty pounds. nine three. One hundred and seven is a sixty five note er Pianola twenty for this one, twenty pounds anywhere? At twenty pounds twenty at twenty pounds no one want it for twenty? At twenty pounds twenty pounds all done at twenty pounds is bid, thank you,any more at twenty? I'll sell at twenty pounds only, are you all done at twenty pounds? That's number nine two seven, thank you. Lot a hundred and eight a portable reed organ there it is twenty for this twenty anywhere? Twenty pounds twenty pounds anywhere? No one want it for twenty pounds is bid, thank you, twenty two pounds twenty five twenty five , any more at twenty five?twenty five? All done then at twenty five and I'll sell at twenty five pounds. one hundred and nine the English chamber barrel organ now showing, thank you and I have eight hundred pounds offered for this fifty, nine hundred and fifty nine hundred and fifty pounds one thousand one hundred one thousand two hundred on my right now at one thousand two hundred pounds, any more? One thousand two, three hundred, four hundred one thousand five hundred six hundred bidding? Seven hundred, eight hundred, nine hundred, two thousand two thousand two hundred two thousand four hundred two thousand six hundred two thousand six hundred, two thousand eight hundred three thousand three thousand all done at three thousand pounds and I'll sell at three thousand pounds. Number again is nine seven six, thank you. Lot one hundred and ten barrel organ showing at the back screen now, Lot one hundred and ten and I have three hundred pounds offered, twenty, three fifty, three eighty three hundred and eighty pounds, any more? Four hundred, four twenty, four fifty, four eighty, five hundred and fifty, six hundred and fifty, seven hundred and fifty, eight hundred eight hundred pounds on my right now, any more? At eight hundred pounds on my right and I shall sell at eight hundred pounds. That is eight six nine, thank you. Lot a hundred and eleven eighty eight note player piano , there it is, thank you twenty for it, twenty pounds twenty twenty twenty pounds twenty pounds, no one want it at twenty pounds twenty pounds is bid, thank you,twenty two twenty two now, any more? Twenty five twenty five pounds , any more at twenty five and I shall sell at twenty five pounds if there's no further bid any more at twenty five pounds? Number nine two seven, thank you. Lot a hundred and twelve erm twenty pounds for these? Twenty? Twenty pounds anywhere? Twenty pounds no one want them at twenty twenty pounds twenty pounds, all done then at twenty pounds only? Twenty pounds twenty pounds. Lot one hundred and thirteen the singing bird box, Lot a hundred and thirteen there it is now the Rochat and I have two thousand for it to start at two thousand, two hundred two thousand four hundred two thousand six hundred thousand eight hundred, three thousand three thousand pounds, any more? At three thousand, two hundred, five hundred three thousand eight hundred, four thousand four thousand two hundred four thousand two hundred pounds down there, four thousand five hundred, four thousand eight hundred five thousand five thousand pounds in the fourth row, five thousand pounds, any more?five thousand five hundred six thousand six thousand pounds, any more? Six thousand five hundred seven thousand seven thousand pounds, any more? At seven thousand pounds all done at seven thousand, the bid is here and I'll sell at seven thousand pounds. Eight seven three, thank you. Lot one hundred and fourteen now showing another one by Bruguier, Lot one hundred and fourteen and I have four thousand pounds offered to start with,four thousand two hundred, five hundred four thousand eight hundred, five thousand at five thousand pounds, any more at five thousand? At five thousand it's with me at five thousand five hundred fifth row at five thousand five hundred pounds, any more at five thousand five hundred pounds down there and I shall sell at five thousand five hundred pounds. seven three, thank you. And one hundred and fifteen is a Rochat again now showing and I have two thousand offered, two thousand two hundred, five hundred two thousand eight hundred three thousand at three thousand pounds, any more? Two hundred, three thousand five hundred, three thousand eight hundred four thousand two hundred four thousand five hundred four thousand eight hundred five thousand five thousand pounds, any more at five thousand pounds and I'll sell at five thousand, all done at five thousand pounds. Number is three one seven, thank you. Lot a hundred and sixteen thank you, another Bruguier now showing and again I have two thousand offered to start, two pounds, any more at two thousand? Two thousand two hundred two thousand four hundred, two thousand six hundred, two thousand eight hundred, three thousand three thousand pounds down there, three thousand two hundred three thousand five hundred three thousand eight hundred three thousand eight hundred, any more? At three thousand eight hundred pounds then, on my right bidding? Three thousand eight hundred pounds, all done at three thousand eight hundred pounds. Lot one hundred and seventeen another Bruguier now showing, Lot one hundred and seventeen for which I've three thousand offered two hundred, five hundred three thousand five hundred three thousand eight hundred, four thousand at four thousand pounds now, any more at four thousand? Four thousand pounds, all done at four thousand two hundred, four thousand five hundred at four thousand five hundred pounds, the bid's with me, are you all done at four thousand five hundred and I shall sell then at four thousand five hundred pounds. three seven. Lot one hundred and eighteen singing bird box now showing , Lot one hundred and eighteen for which I have five hundred pounds offered and fifty, six hundred and fifty, seven hundred and fifty, eight hundred and fifty, nine hundred at nine hundred on the right there, any more? Nine hundred pounds, all done at nine hundred pounds and I'll sell at nine hundred pounds. thank you. Lot a hundred and nineteen singing bird box now showing, Lot a hundred and nineteen for which I have six hundred offered and fifty, seven hundred, any more at seven hundred pounds? Seven hundred all done then, seven fifty, eight hundred eight hundred pounds now, any more?hundred pounds eight fifty I hear down there, thank you, any more at eight fifty? Eight fifty on the right and I'll sell at eight hundred and fifty pounds. Three six O thank you very much. Lot one hundred and twenty mother of pearl case now three hundred for this one, three hundred pounds, any more?three hundred and twenty, three fifty, three eighty, four hundred and twenty four hundred and twenty, four fifty four eighty five hundred fifty six hundred six fifty seven hundred seven hundred pounds near the back, any more at seven hundred, and fifty new bidder against you now seven hundred and fifty over there on the right at the back and I'll sell at seven fifty eight hundred eight hundred on the left at the back, now any more at eight hundred pounds? Against you on the right eight hundred pounds and I shall sell then are you all done at eight hundred pounds? Three two six, thank you. Lot a hundred and twenty one fine musical necessaire now showing, thank you, Lot one two one for which I have eight hundred pounds offered, fifty, nine hundred and fifty, one thousand, one hundred one thousand one hundred pounds two hundred three hundred one thousand three hundred and fifty, any more? One thousand four hundred on my left at one thousand four hundred pounds any advance on one thousand, five hundred one thousand six hundred seven hundred eight hundred nine hundred one thousand nine hundred pounds, any more at one thousand nine hundred? The bid is there at one thousand nine hundred pounds one thousand nine hundred pounds. Number thank you. Lot a hundred and twenty two overture snuff box Der Freischutz this one, Lot one two two for which I have one thousand pounds offered, one hundred, two hundred three hundred four hundred one thousand five hundred one thousand six hundred, any more at one thousand six hundred pounds? One thousand seven hundred, eight hundred nine hundred, two thousand two thousand two hundred, two thousand four hundred two thousand six hundred, two thousand eight hundred three thousand two hundred three thousand five hundred, three thousand eight hundred four thousand four thousand two hundred four thousand five hundred at four thousand five hundred pounds in the fifth row now, any more at four thousand five hundred pounds, all done? Four thousand five hundred pounds. Er eight seven , thank you. Lot one two three is black composition snuff box, there it is now, Lot one two three and I have three hundred pounds offered for this and twenty three fifty three eighty, four hundred four hundred pounds and twenty, four fifty four fifty with me now, any more at four hundred and fifty pounds, any more at four fifty? Four hundred and fifty pounds, are you all done at four fifty, four eighty at four eighty now all done at four hundred and eighty pounds. seven. Lot one hundred and twenty four thank you, another one showing here, three hundred is offered and twenty, three fifty, any more at three hundred and fifty? Three hundred and fifty pounds, three eighty, four hundred at four hundred pounds are you all done at four hundred? It's with me and I'll sell at four hundred and twenty, four fifty against you at four fifty, any more? All done then, it's with me still at four hundred and fifty pounds against you all in the room. four seven. Lot a hundred and twenty five thank you another snuff box now showing, Lot one two five for which I have two offered and twenty two fifty, two eighty, three hundred three hundred pounds, any more? At three hundred pounds, are you all done at three hundred pounds? Any more? Twenty, three fifty against you at three fifty now, any more? Three eighty, four hundred four hundred pounds, any more? It's with me then at four hundred pounds and I shall sell at four hundred pounds. Four hundred pounds, all done. four seven. Lot a hundred and twenty six snuff box there it is now showing in a painted tin case and I have five hundred offered for this five hundred and fifty, six hundred six fifty, seven hundred and fifty, eight hundred eight hundred pounds, any more? Eight hundred pounds are you all done then at eight hundred and fifty, nine hundred at nine hundred pounds with me still, are you all done at nine hundred pounds? One four seven. Lot one two seven Laurencekirk box, there it is, thank you and I have four hundred offered and twenty four fifty, four eighty, five hundred and fifty at five fifty now, any more at five fifty? All done then? Six hundred, six fifty against you at six hundred and fifty pounds, any more? Bid's with me, seven hundred, seven fifty eight hundred, eight fifty nine hundred at nine hundred pounds in the fifth row, any more at nine hundred pounds? Nine fifty standing at nine fifty then, are you all done at nine hundred and fifty pounds? Three two six, thank you. Lot a hundred and twenty eight is the snuff box now showing, thank you, Lot one two eight and I have six hundred pounds offered, fifty, seven hundred and fifty, eight hundred eight hundred pounds, any more? Eight fifty, nine hundred nine fifty, one thousand one hundred, two hundred one thousand three hundred four hundred five hundred one thousand six hundred, seven hundred eight hundred one thousand eight hundred pounds, any more? One thousand nine hundred new bidder one thousand nine hundred pounds near the back in the aisle two thousand two thousand two hundred two thousand two hundred pounds near the back, two thousand four hundred two thousand four hundred pounds on my left and I shall sell at two thousand four hundred pounds. thank you. Er Lot one hundred and twenty nine three airs snuff box now showing, Lot one two nine for which I have five hundred offered, five fifty, six hundred six hundred pounds, any more? At six hundred and fifty, seven hundred seven hundred against you now, any more? Seven hundred pounds any more at seven hundred? All done then at seven hundred pounds, seven fifty, eight hundred eight fifty, nine hundred, nine fifty, one thousand one hundred at one thousand one hundred in the fifth row, any more at one thousand one hundred and I shall sell at one thousand one hundred pounds. And the number is three one seven, thank you very much. Lot a hundred and thirty tortoiseshell box now showing, Lot a hundred and thirty and I have four hundred offered for this one, four twenty, fifty, four eighty, five hundred, and fifty six hundred and fifty, seven hundred and fifty and fifty nine hundred at nine hundred pounds fifty, one thousand one hundred two hundred one thousand three hundred four hundred, five hundred, six hundred, seven hundred, eight hundred, nine hundred, two thousand, two hundred two thousand four hundred two thousand six hundred two thousand eight hundred, three thousand three thousand pounds it's your bid at three thousand any advance on three thousand pounds, are you all done then at three thousand pounds? Three one seven, thank you. One three one thank you, now showing, Lot one three one and I have five hundred offered for this fifty, six hundred and fifty, seven hundred seven hundred now, any more? Seven fifty, eight hundred and fifty, nine hundred and fifty, one thousand one hundred, two hundred one thousand two hundred pounds, any more? One thousand two hundred pounds, the bid's with me, are you all done at one thousand two hundred pounds a thousand three hundred on my right now at one thousand three hundred pounds, any more? At one thousand three hundred and I shall sell at one thousand three hundred pounds. Six six seven, thank you. Lot a hundred and thirty two there it is now, a snuff box with micro-mosaic lid, Lot one three two and I have eight hundred pounds offered for this one and fifty, nine hundred and fifty, one thousand, one hundred, two hundred, three hundred, four hundred, one thousand five hundred, six hundred one thousand six hundred pounds at the back in the aisle, any more? One thousand seven hundred one thousand eight hundred, nine hundred, two thousand, two thousand two hundred, two thousand four hundred, two thousand six hundred eight hundred three thousand three thousand two hundred three thousand two hundred pounds , any more now? At three thousand two hundred pounds, three thousand five hundred three thousand five now in the fifth row three thousand eight hundred three thousand eight hundred pounds, any more? All done then at three thousand eight hundred?sell at three thousand eight hundred pounds. Nine five seven, thank you very much. Lot a hundred and thirty three now showing, thank you, Lot one three three and I have five hundred offered and fifty, six hundred and fifty, seven hundred seven hundred pounds, any more? Seven fifty, eight hundred and fifty there at the back in the aisle at eight hundred and fifty pounds nine hundred and fifty one thousand, one hundred two hundred, three hundred four hundred a thousand five hundred six hundred one thousand seven hundred, one thousand eight hundred, nine hundred two thousand two thousand two hundred, two thousand four hundred six hundred eight hundred two thousand eight hundred pounds in the fifth row now any more? Two thousand eight hundred and I shall sell two thousand eight hundred pounds. Er three one seven? One hundred and thirty four er Bordier box, there it is, Lot one three four it's illustrated in the catalogue a small box with a , Lot one three four and I have three hundred pounds offered for it, three hundred pounds and twenty, three fifty, three eighty, four hundred, and twenty, four fifty, four eighty five hundred and fifty, six hundred and fifty, seven hundred and fifty eight hundred and fifty near the back in the aisle at eight hundred and fifty now nine hundred nine fifty nine hundred and fifty, any more? At nine fifty then, all done then at one one thousand one thousand one hundred still near the back in the aisle at one thousand one hundred and I shall sell at one thousand one hundred one thousand two hundred just in time any more? One thousand three hundred all done at one thousand three hundred pounds. Nine five seven, thank you. One hundred and thirty five a small box by Capt, snuff box by Capt now showing er I have er four hundred pounds offered, four fifty, five hundred and fifty, six hundred, six hundred and fifty, seven hundred and fifty, eight hundred and fifty on my left at eight fifty now, any more? At eight hundred and fifty pounds on my left seated and I'll sell at eight hundred and fifty pounds, all done?five. Lot one hundred and thirty six tortoiseshell case Lot one three six Martinet and Benoit could well be, yes it's in a plain tortoiseshell case er I have four hundred pounds offered for this, four twenty, fifty, four eighty, five hundred five hundred pounds, any more? Five fifty, thank you, six hundred six hundred pounds with me,on the screen six hundred pounds with me, any more at six hundred pounds? Six fifty, thank you down there at six fifty now, any more at six hundred and fifty seven hundred seven fifty seven hundred and fifty pounds, are you all done at seven fifty then? Any more at seven hundred and fifty pounds. And the number again is eight seven thank you very much. One hundred and thirty seven snuff box of casket form that's the right one, yes and I have two hundred offered for this two twenty, two forty two sixty, two eighty, three hundred and twenty, three fifty, three eighty, four hundred at four hundred pounds, any more? Four hundred pounds, any more, it's with me at four hundred now, are you all done? Four twenty, four fifty four fifty, any more? Four fifty, four eighty, five hundred five hundred, it's still with me at five, five fifty five fifty, are you all done at five fifty and I'll sell then at five hundred and fifty pounds. Three one seven, thank you very much. Lot a hundred and thirty eight silver gilt box with micro-mosaic, there it is now showing, thank you and I have one thousand five hundred pounds offered to start me, six hundred, seven hundred, one thousand eight hundred, nine hundred, two thousand two thousand pounds, two thousand one hundred two thousand two hundred, three hundred thousand four hundred, five hundred, two thousand six hundred on my left at two thousand six hundred pounds, any more? At two thousand six hundred pounds in the aisle at seven hundred, eight hundred two thousand nine hundred three thousand three thousand pounds, any more at three thousand? Two hundred, three thousand four hundred three thousand four hundred now any more? Three thousand four hundred and I'll sell at three thousand four hundred pounds on my left. Two five two, thank you. Lot a hundred and thirty nine snuff box in tortoiseshell case now showing initials W B D on the top and I have four hundred offered for it, four fifty, fifty, four hundred and fifty now, any more? At four eighty, five hundred five hundred pounds with me, any more? Five fifty on my right now at five fifty, any more at five hundred and fifty pounds? Are you all done at five hundred and fifty pounds. thank you. Lot one hundred and forty is an overture snuff box, there it is, thank you it's a Mozart one and I have one thousand five hundred offered for this, six hundred, seven hundred one thousand eight hundred one thousand nine hundred any more at one thousand nine hundred pounds? One thousand nine hundred pounds, all done then at one thousand nine hundred pounds? Two thousand at two thousand pounds now, any more? Two thousand, all finished and I'll sell then at two thousand pounds, are you all done at two thousand pounds? And Lot one hundred and forty one Well are we ready to go? I feel a bit like Henry the fifth, once more into the breach. Er resumed on er we actually got to number eight this morning didn't we? Can I can I ask er contributions, short and sharp . Please so we can finish at a reasonable hour. Otherwise we shall be having conflicts with the amateur dramatics society. So we go into and I'm r reading the schedule as submitted by Mr , eight, little a, another fact is regional, sub- regional policies and if you will recall we Council's wording was, be consistent with regional and sub- regional policies. Now how many of the sectors as again as defined ones which we've agreed we will examine, er would fit or would be con would be consistent with regional, sub-regional policies or would possibly cause conflict with those if er they were the receiving the receiving area for a new settlement? Or do you take the assessment which Mr has done which er indicates that they are all of equal er merit or rank? Mr . Dave , Leeds City Council. You've heard me often already chairman on this point. I don't think I need to repeat Leeds view about the implications for regeneration in inner Leeds and West Yorkshire. Er yes, but be precise about the sectors Mr . Which are the sectors where you feel, if you had a new settlement, er there would be potential er problems if that's the right word, for the implementation of your regeneration policies in Leeds. Dave , Leeds City Council. The sectors of particular concern to Leeds are in particular, the A sixty four corridor, south west sector and depending on location, the A fifty nine corridor may have implications. Yes. So that's Selby west and possibly Harrogate. Is that it? That's correct chairman. That's correct chairman. Thank you. Any anyone else want to make a point on this? Good can we move on to the next one? Infrastructure. Do you want t well yes, County Council criteria was to be acceptable in respect of the provisions of essential infrastructure, particularly surface water and foul drainage and water supply. But it was agreed was it not that er there ought to be coupled with that, it seems appropriate when you're talking about water supplies. Er avoid the flood plain and be acceptable in the context of surface water drainage. In other words er would be would not cause problems or ra raise objection from the N R A because it would conflict with their responsibilities. Erm any of the sectors that have been identified erm give cause for concern on that score? No. Y you were first on the draw Mr . Michael . Sir it dealing with drainage matters, I think there's general agreement from Yorkshire Water that the preference is the new settlement should drain should should either g be within I think I I put it detailed figures in my in my statement. I think it's three miles from the er Naburn works or going to the east York main link sewer. That would mean you would be looking at something on the A sixty four north or happily for Mr , the A sixty four south or the A nineteen south. The A nineteen north, the A fifty nine and B one s three six three would be less favoured for those reasons. As brief as I can be sir. Very succinct. Mr . Without commenting on the or any sector I think the conclusions on these three elements, that's surface water, foul drainage and er water supply, may be different in respect of each sector. It's not it's not as straightforward, the conclusions in respect of one may not necessarily apply in respect of the other. Well. And I don't know the answer. I I suspect neither at the moment do the er do the National Rivers Authority or or or the water authority. I know there may be variation in degree as it were, according to which particular aspect of infrastructure you're looking at. But is there likely to be anything which would be absolutely overriding? Or which would lead on to conclude that one sector is preferable to another. What you're saying is there's a shortage of information. At the moment I think there is yes. A definitive statement. What about the point which Mr raised, made? Well I wouldn't want to comment on that because I don't have the information to er to to set against anything Mr . is to is to discuss the detail of the issues in respect of those three those three elements. Would you like to ex Sorry Mr , would you like to expand on that last point? I mean do you want to go through each one. No! The County Council's position is it doesn't feel able at the moment to express a definitive view on these three elements in respect of er of either sector. Of any of the sectors that in er . You haven't done any of these exercises? Not in detail no. Mr , do you want to? Yes sir. Just Michael . Sir you'll have seen the County Planning Officer's own report on these matters and you'll have seen exactly the same comments which I've made contained in that report. The County have done initial work on this and come to exactly the same conclusions which we have. . Agricultural land quality. Any sector which is less favoured or more favoured as a result of a shall I say a generalized overview on agricultural land quality? Miss . Fiona ,. Er the County Council's own document January ninety two actually sets out erm the various regions around the around the York area and the general g grades of agricultural quality. They've pointed out that the area to the south and the west is generally much higher agricultural land than elsewhere. Are you commending us to look at that then? Sorry am I? Are you commending us to look at that and inwardly Yes I am. Well it it won't have changed so inwardly digest. Mr . Paul , Partnership. Er the only point I wish to make is that there is considerable variability we have found in the grading erm and the Ministry of Agriculture maps can not be relied upon for relatively small er or larger areas. And erm in that respect I believe er that this particular factor as all of the other factors under er item eight, er it requires really site specific investigation. Well we shall Than thank you Mr . We shall refresh our memories on the information already supplied to us. Mr . Michael . Sir, we are obviously dealing here with a new settlement of ve very extensive land take, I think that the there are certainly been quite a There's been a lot of detailed work done by the various erm protagonists around around the table today about agricultural land quality. I think it is fair to say that erm all the detailed surveys which have been taken have tended to support the findings from the one to fifty thousand map in so far that the various developments proposed to the west and to the south have include quite large elements of grade two land, whereas the se proposals to the north a tend to be grade three land. And again one would te under P P G seven, one would tend to those localities. Mr , did you want to come back on that one? Or was it Thank you. Can we move on then? Archaeology and nature conservation. Erm County Council wording had, avoid areas of archaeological nature conservation importance. Erm I take it Mr that that is what your item heading actually encompasses does it? It does sir yes. Yes. Are there any sectors where there are for example triple S Is which are of er how shall I put it, strategic scale, that could influence er the location of a new settlement. I I I see from your nature conservation strategy document that you have got some sizable triple S Is er I within within the area of search Mhm. but for some reason some of them may well lie within the Mm. in the flood plain for example. Yes I think Do do any of those come into play? Erm I would think, by and large in practical terms erm they do not, I'm immediately thinking of the erm er on the Derwent. Erm some of which would be in the area of search but I think practically, for obviously drainage reasons, they wouldn't be a constraining factor. The other one that immediately comes to mind is er is is Strensall common but that of course is within the greenbelt erm anyway. Yes. I wouldn't have thought er that that er on archaeology and nature conservation, which really is erm a matter of er detailed site consideration, that er it would be a fundamental matter in the er in the location of a new settlement. I don't know whether our colleagues would agree or not on that. So I wouldn't Yes I'd accept that probably er a tick in each probably would er would be a reasonable assumption . Yes. It's far too localized and site specific to It does tend to actually come into play at the strategic level. Yes I think that's a reasonable er summary yeah . Yeah yeah yeah. Even in spite of the advice given in P P G three? Yeah. Er moving on Pardon? Moving on then to freestanding form which in the expanded form would be, be freestanding and avoid coalescence with existing settlements. Now then chairman er Peter , North Yorkshire. I would have thought again that er that criteria could reasonably be e be expected to be accommodated with er within each of the sectors. Yes I recall on Friday morning we had this discussion about the wording which you had in the er Mm. in in in in H two, nine, be freestanding and well removed from . But I don't want to raise that one again. No. Now then. Move on then to minerals considerations. Sorry sorry Mr , I moved too quickly for you. Er , Flaxton. Are you going to produce your great white spots again as distinct from Mr Erm 's black spots? I'll I'll make brief reference to them. Erm the question of coalescence, freestanding form, is in my opinion of more importance in regard to some corridors th some sectors than others. I believe that in the evaluation of sectors that we're now engaged in, it is possible as a strategic exercise to exclude entirely number six, the A sixty four north eastern corridor, on coalescence questions. But I would first start with a slightly wider issue. Er namely the density of settlements. And I did a diagram which I think everybody has, showing broadly the the density as we have it. If one looks at that erm built area where we are now that looks perhaps like a heron on a perch, and looks immediately east of that, you have Strensall Common, most of which is a restricted area. And the outer boundary of the greenbelt proposed by the County Council, slightly closer in than the existing outer boundary at that point, is coterminous with the boundary of the grenade throwing range. Between it and the boundary of the Howardian Hills area of outstanding natural beauty at Foston Bridge, the distance is only three and a half kilometres, just over two miles, there is therefore a narrow corridor not designated either as greenbelt or A O N B, which naturally er comes under rather heavier pressure perhaps than er areas round it might. Therefore, in looking at this diagram, one needs to realize that to the southwest er and just east of er Strensall erm the area is filled up by greenbelt. There are in fact very few areas straddling the A sixty four north east than one needs to look at. There is perhaps one northeast of Flaxton Village, another south of it and another southeast of the A sixty four. Taking the last first, there are three villages which are so close together that with any allowance for coalescence, even the one kilometre which I believe was taken in the original look at this problem by the County Council, there would be no possibility of fitting in a settlement er of the size proposed. And here I ought to perhaps make it clear that the circles I provided on the sheet which was distributed, allow for a density of twenty houses per hectare. Mhm. If one goes to the slightly higher figure, which would be more appropriate for inner suburban development, then instead of my cut out for the Land Ranger map, for one and a half square kilometres, one hundred and fifty hectares, one can take the new ten penny piece. That w that is exactly at twenty five, and that is allowing a doubling of the housing area to allow for all the other features that come within the new settlement. The er commercial, employment land, shopping, erm community facilities, infrastructure etcetera. I don't think that that would be likely to be argued against. If one comes to the are northeast of Flaxton, I believe that for the avoidance of coalescence, one ought in the case of a village which has a rather wide boundary conservation area, for historical reasons basically, one ought to take the coalescence distance from the edge of that conservation boundary. And that is shown in the appendix to the position statement put in by Flaxton. If one allows even the minimum that was contemplated by North Yorkshire, one finds that there is no room left in the triangle surrounded by the railway, the A sixty four and the conservation area of Flaxton. It is impossible. I commend that exercise to you but won't go into more detail about it now. To the south or southwest of Flaxton, a fairly similar problem arises. If one took the distance as only one kilometre and we regard that as absolutely insufficient for a village of the character of Flaxton, we would prefer one and a half miles or two point four kilometres as the minimum. But if one takes only one kilometre, again there is insufficient room for a settlement which would not be close up against the greenbelt boundary proposed by the County Council, and close up against the A sixty four. It is just impossible to fit it in. I cannot see any other potential locations for a new settlement straddling the A A sixty four corridor, in addition to the three I have just mentioned and I believe that on that basis, it would be reasonable from the strategic point of view, to exclude sector six. Mhm. You've just introduced a new method of measurement for all planners Mr . But yes thank you I I do take the point. In other words, on this particular aspect, approach with caution sector six. Yes? Yes, I would go further than that but that is stating my view as at its minimum. Approach with caution, yes. Yes. Yeah. Thank you. Miss . Fiona ,. Sir, I'd like to bring your attention to erm a plan prepared by Partnership which is submitted as part of their evidence, which erm sets out for the south and southwest the er coalescence of existing settlements. First of all I'd like to point out that some of the existing settlements haven't actually been ringed, for example Acaster Selby. But it's obvious from a quick glance that that plan that in fact a number of those settlements are already coalescing in the form of a definition of a one kilometre cordon around the the village and there are actually very few areas outside of the greenbelt in that zone which could possibly accommodate a new settlement of the size we're contemplating, without causing coalescence. That reference was to which sectors? Well it's the south, southwest area. It it's actually probably south and south southwest. It's Selby East and Selby West isn't it? If I as I recall Number two I think is the er Yes. Two primarily and possibly one as I as I as I remember Yes. That's right. the the plan which you produced Mr , it spans virtually the whole of the Selby District doesn't it? Yes sir it does. Thank you. Yes. Er Mr first and then then Mr . the revised criteria and and and as you've just read it out, I think for consistency with paragraph thirty three of P P G three, there needs to be the word unacceptable coalescence. And I think if you look at lessons such as the Cambridge situation, you can have distances of separation between a new village and surrounding settlements and it's as little as six hundred metres, depending on localized matters. And my view is that within the A sixty four corridor, north east, there is sufficient range of sites to be found that it should not be erm set to one side on this criterion. I I must confess Mr I had some difficulty with the wording of P P G there when it says, unacceptable coalescence, er and trying to balance that against the expressed aim that this should be freestanding. And if it's freestanding then you can't have coalescence, acceptable or otherwise surely, can you. You might There are certain new settlement proposals that have been put forward in other parts of the country which has been basically a bolt on to er an existing group of Yeah. Perhaps I could Which might be acceptable. seek some clarification as to the way in which the County Council defines a settlement. When is a settlement not a settlement? No no no no no no. Yes I sorry I mean there may be a cutoff point may there mayn't there. Mr . Thank you sir. Just on a point of er clarification, the villages or settlements I should say, that I've indicated on the er plan which is included within my statement, er is actually derived from the Selby rural areas local plan, which defines settlements and I believe the County Council have used a similar erm listing of erm settlements within that those two sectors for their own exercise when they looked at this particular subject er criteria. Thank you. Thank you. Mr . Michael Michael , very briefly, we my my clients have two settlements new two ne new settlements proposed along the A sixty four corridor. Both have been designed to meet fully the requirements a set out by the County Council and we're quite happy, we can actually meet that requirement of being one kilometre from Flaxton, in fact we greatly exceed that distance, despite and that is a on the design of a larger new settlement than fourteen hundred dwellings. So as a matter of fact we can we can actually fulfil their requirement. Thank you. Are you to hazard a guess about when is a settlement not a settlement? No I'm not at the moment. Erm erm can I just say, just on the on the basis of Mr 's map erm I think that proves the point that er that I suggested at the outset of the discussion erm on this issue, that if you look at the distribution of settlements there outside the greenbelt, there's nothing there that suggests that any of the particular sectors ought to be discounted. Erm I think it's a reasonable starting point that there's a reasonably level playing field on the basis of er erm of of of that issue. And I wouldn't agree therefore with Mr or indeed with er Miss that er either sectors within that general framework erm should be discounted. On the same basis, there are some sectors er which have less settlements than indeed som if any than others. Well I think that's perhaps a matter of slight degree it's again So the ques the question then is wheth whether you would accord anything anything erm any weighting to that. Well no the issue is whether any sector is to be discounted because because of the distribution of settlements it would be on balance, difficult to find a location for a new settlement within that sector. I think that is the issue and on the basis of the distribution of settlements, er now there's nothing there to suggest to me that er there's anything other than the level playing field at the outset of perhaps of that exercise. Fine thank you. Anybody else want to make any comment on that? Can we move on to minerals considerations? Erm and we come back to the County's wording which is, avoid conflict between mineral and non-mineral development. Erm and I have to say that er I mean if if if for example this was to Well assuming we had H two policy then wouldn't you expect to make some cross-reference here to your ei policy M eight in your approved structure plan? I think that erm yeah, as a matter of principle that wouldn't be erm untoward. You will notice in the structure plan as a whole there is very little cross-referencing between any of the policies in there . Yes Er I as I recollect it, that was largely the view the the Secretary of State took when he when he approved the plan and indeed there is a relationship between most of the policies. And you need to look at the policies as a whole rather than individually . That's right yes yeah. But people sometimes fall into the trap Yeah. in looking at individual policies Yes. or selecting those which At the exclusion of others yes . Yes. Yeah. Anybody want to make any comment on this? Mr ? Thank you sir, Paul , Partnership. Mr submitted this morning a letter from British Coal, erm I just wanted to place on record the fact that erm this is no more than erm a reiteration of a a previous holding objection to my client's erm proposal for a new settlement within Selby District. I would like to say that there have been no negotiations with British Coal erm in relation to this objection as the application is currently in abeyance as it's obviously subject to a section fourteen direction, but I don't see anything in there erm which erm alters the the general conclusions er that I've put in my supplementary paper on this particular criterion. Mr . Mic Michael . Sir er sir the I think I would not for a moment argue that minerals considerations can be ove overriding in this matter. Clearly they they they should not be. However they do go into the balance. It's quite clear from the British Coal letter that there is extreme concern about by the operator of the coalfield about the effect of any new settlement along either the A nineteen south or the A sixty four south corridor. And this is a matter which must be given some weight in decision when you combine it with the other factors also which we have gone through today. Mr If I can just make er Paul , Partnership. If I could just make one closing remark on this particular issue. The question of the Selby coalfield has not been seen as a constraint on other forms of development erm peripheral expansion, expansion of villages and so on within the coalfield area. Do you wish to make any comment on this this one point ? Not specifically other than obviously we don't know at the moment Yeah. whether it is a real constraint in terms of erm of locating a er er a new settlement. I guess again that's something that needs to be looked at in the context of the er of of British Coal's ongoing program of work in the Selby Area. Well we have come to the end of Mr 's list. The other one, vaguely at the back of my mind it was raised this morning cos I recall Mr made a comment on it, and that is erm looking at the growth implications beyond two thousand and six. Are there any sectors where that may be acceptable or unacceptable? Or is it something which just has to be considered as part of the planning process? When you're dealing with a specific proposal. Mr ? I would say that it's a general applicability and it er governs the erm size that one should have regard to potentially in looking at the matter from the local plan point of view. I would say that it's germane to this exercise again in so far as it might lead to the conclusion that a particular sector is impracticable. Yes that that i yes. Yeah yeah. That is assuming of course that you would then go b much beyond the f the fourteen hundred figure which has been identified. Erm just as an example, in the cutouts distributed, the three square kilometres, the three hundred hectares, is erm er double of course the area that I took up to two thousand and six of one and a half . Yes. Yeah. Can we take it Mr that you would therefore apply the same comments to sector six on this criterion, as you did to the freestanding criterion? Indeed I would. I think that the inherent development pressures which would develop by two thousand and six in the case of a successful new settlement, would be such that there would be a severe risk of encroachment within that distance that one had, years earlier adopted as the necessary clearance between and existing settlement and the new settlement. One should therefore have regard to as far as possible, the eventual size. Yes. Yeah. Thank you. Has anyone else I think we've exhausted the criteria er appraisal as it were. What I'd ask for now er erm is a sort of general rounding up, summing up staring on my left hand side. Miss is just saying to me that a quick review of her chart, er could indicate that we haven't got any clear er how shall I say, clear indication, using the same word twice, that would point us to one sector only. In other words In other words If I may chairman. I only highlight that to encourage those who are going to be making er concluding commentaries to p sharpen up their summary. Please. Yes. Michael . Sir,i having listened to the discussion nearly two two days, two and a half days, it seems to me that I come very firmly with the conclusion that the A f A fifty nine, the A nineteen north and B one three six corridors are simply not practical. Mainly on highway grounds. The A fifty nine has a number of constraints upon it, including best and most versatile agricultural land, its its difficulty of assimilating a new settlement, but as I say most importantly for highway reasons. The A nineteen north, very similar reasons, but we have the added reason that the local planning authority, Hambledon clearly will not accept such a new settlement. And very similar constraints on B one three six three corridor. That leaves you then with three corridors to to consider. The A nineteen south, the A sixty four south and the A sixty four north. Again, the A nineteen south has a major highway constraint upon it and it's very difficult to see how that could be overcome. And I in my opinion the A nineteen south in particular should be dismissed for highway reasons. It simply cannot accommodate the traffic flows which would be generated. Which leaves two corridors, which are the A sixty four south and the and the A sixty four north. The A sixty four south, again there are highway difficulties, you will see from the note which we put out, the extent of di of of over capacity on the A sixty four south. You have heard the the frequently repeated comments by by almost all of the participants of the difficulties this would cause to the regeneration of Leeds. It has the added difficulty of the minerals problems. It also has the added difficulty that it cannot be effectively served by rail. I think, for all those reasons, it is should not be preferred. The a in comparison, the A sixty four north has I think o scores better on almost all of the criteria. It won't it is accepted that the new settlement new settlement can be assimilated into the landscape. It is accepted that there isn't any significant minerals constraint and it's accepted that there isn't any high well there isn't the same quantity of best and most versatile agricultural land. Which brings me really to the factors which I give the most weight to. Most im Very importantly, it is the area where I think there's agreement almost around the table that it is it will be the area which will best meet the Greater York needs, rather than needs of Leeds or elsewhere in Greater York. That I think is a factor which you must give importance to given the views of the Secretary of State. It is also the area where you have the most, the best transport choice of the practical corridors. We know as a matter o that the roads wh when dualled the road when dualled, will have sufficient c capacity. We know that it already has a very good bus service. And but most importantly, it is there is also the potential for a rail link. I think that it best meets that very important criterion. And I I think that's all I need to say at this point. Thank you Mr . Mr , are you going to run some horses through this particular race? Erm Roy , House Builders' Federation. I said some days ago that I would have difficulty er assisting you in making the choice for for some obvious reasons. Erm I'm still obviously in that position, that that position hasn't changed. I think I would simply say that er if you feel you can make a choice, so be it, if you feel you can't make a choice I would implore you to take up some wording similar to the wording I've suggested, which seeks to commit the district authorities to a to a new settlement within within Greater York. Albeit there's no sector location. Because as I've said to you before, I think it's very important that a new settlement is provided somewhere within Greater York. Mr Paul , Partnership. Sir, I think I have the advantage over most round the table, if not all that I have actually put in to you a paper which I think sets out very clearly the basis of my er choice of the A sixty four south erm sector and I won't reiterate those points. I would just like to make a couple of general points though regarding Selby District as a location. Erm first of all, I think alternative sites can be found within the district which meet the requirements of P P G three, erm set out in paragraph thirty three, and I think the other advantage which perhaps hasn't been touched on is that the new settlement in Selby District would balance the otherwise very heavy bias of recent and future programmed development which is er to the north east of York. particularly within Ryedale district. And also I think you've heard that er Selby District Council er wish to u use the er York new settlement as a very positive part of their own strategy to accommodate development within er their own northern areas to relieve development pressures erm on their villages. The second point which I would make is that despite having had many months indeed years, to come to a view, erm it is only Selby District Council who have stepped forward and said, basically that they would be prepared to accommodate the new settlement. The other districts have had plenty of opportunity to say so but they have not and I believe that can be taken that they are not favourably disposed to a new settlement within their district, regardless of whether they're in favour of the principle of it. And I think it is important in the Greater York context that the York new settlement be located in a district which is enthusiastic about the concept of developing a new settlement, because to do otherwise I think will undermine the role er function of the new settlement. And that really leads me up er leads me to my final point which I think it is essential to plan for success with this new settlement. Erm I've indicated this morning that I think the employment component of the new settlement is an absolutely crucial part of the overall concept and unless you get a very good employment area, all the other objectives for the new settlement will not be achieved. And I think there is very clear evidence that a location along the A sixty four corridor to the south erm west or York is most likely in the Greater York context to produce a good employment area. Thank you. Thank you, Miss ? Fiona ,. I consider that the A sixty four south erm corridor should be eliminated from consideration for the following reasons. Erm a proposal of the new settlement in this corridor would be contrary to regional and sub-regional policy. Erm it would undermine West Yorkshire's policy of urban regeneration by creating a magnet which would erm lead to further migration into the York area, it would therefore not serve York well. Erm I consider also that erm a development in this area would intrude on the sensitive gap between the York and West Yorkshire greenbelts and would be likely to cause coalescence between the fairly densely located villages in this sector. We've heard from Michael about the access problems on this corridor, erm he's produced figures that show that this particular route is over design capacity. I'd also like to point out that erm due to the isolation of much of the area in the sector, erm n new access to a new settlement would be very intrusive on the landscape. The area is is erm in the main, flat farmland and it would be very difficult to erm landscape effectively any new settlement proposal or roads serving it. Erm this sector of land also contains a high proportion of high grade agricultural land and should therefore be avoided. Erm i in addition British Goa Coal have plans to undermine much of this area up to and beyond two thousand and six. These plans would be prejudiced by a new settlement in this location. That's it. Is that it? Yes. You're not proposing any other sector which might be a suitable home? No No . I'm not not. I'm not. I I I mean I know the point which has been pursued by before. Mr , standing in for Mr . Yes I'm afraid I've come in as a a last minute substitute and I feel as if in the eighty ninth minute I've been given a penalty to take that could win the match or missing it could mess us up so I I apologize. Erm I I've no wish to run through all the points er again that erm Mr and er Miss have have made in regard to the southwest sector. Erm I think that you know where we're coming from which I think the phrase you've used before. Erm we question the need completely for a new settlement and and we question that on the basis of population projection which we believe are reasonable. We're not seeking to impose artificial restraints of development, we don't think the demand for a settlement is there. Certainly not within the period of the current structure plan. We feel that the development that we admit is necessary, can comfortably be spread around the constituent authorities and we've heard nothing I I would submit that that that that that goes against that. You sir, I would contend have found at every turn uncertainty amongst the local authorities and a and a lack of unanimity amongst the Greater York authorities as to whether there should be a settlement and where where it should go. Which I which we would suggest is indicative of the fact that there is no overriding demand, which is what obviously for the purposes of P P G three, you are looking for. With particular regard to the interests of our client, other than taking an overview, we obviously have to look specifically at the southwest sector as a as a possible location. Erm the principle aim of the new settlement would be to meet the needs of Greater York and one area that I'm afraid hasn't been considered yet, but which I think may well come out in connection with the employment policies in due course, is whether or not a new settlement in Selby would actually conflict with the underlying policies of Selby for development. It would actually be competing for development that Selby wants for its own population. Erm once the development er that would have been g going into Selby actually goes into the new settlement then it's me it's either meeting the new settlement's er sorry the the it's either meeting the goals of Greater York, in which case that's been taken away from Selby, or it's substituting for Selby. Erm a new factory going into the area for example will have a choice between one of Selby's erm can't think of a suitable adjective, large requirement for industrial land, or it will go into the new settlement. In our view the the simple fact that Selby are prepared to take it, erm shouldn't carry that much weight. I mean we have to make a sensible planning decision on where it should go and the fact that one authority is prepared to put its hand up when the others clearly aren't, should not be the main determining factor. That's all I have thank you. Thank you. A volunteer is better than a pressed man. Mr . The C P R E er remains opposed to to the basic principle of the new settlement on the grounds that have already been discussed, it's not needed, it's not sustainable and it's inconsistent with with current and emerging guidance. However erm if if you as a panel are one minded to to go for the new settlement option and two, er minded to make a ren recommendation about particular geographical locations or sectors, erm I for one would be very concerned that this would be done on the basis of of insufficient technical erm information. Erm you have in front of you er background material that's been submitted by way of statement and erm a half a day of discussion today plus plus this evening. I conclude from that that the technical information on on all the sectors is at best patchy, erm and where it's comprehensive it's come from people who are advocating a particular development proposal. And it's certainly not available in sufficient detail for for all of the sectors to make a fair comparison and I think Mr has made this point in in when you've questioned him a number of times today that the information is just not available or to hand to make to make that comparison. Erm I I look forward to hearing Mr 's views on on this particular matter given that he was the or or the department was was responsible for for in a sense prolonging the discussion to consider the breakdown of locations and as to whether he feels that there is sufficient technical information available on all of the sectors should a recommendation come forward for a particular sector from from the panel. If if you as a panel conclude that the information erm is inadequate, clearly er on that basis then then a suggestion would have to be made as to one how this matter can be progressed. And from C P R E's point of view we we would feel that the best way to do that is to is to reconvene if that's the right word, the forum of Greater York authorities to to look in more detail at at each of the sectors and under undertake the the technical comparison I think in a in in a fair and reasonable way which which I don't think we've really we've really achieved during erm three hours of discussion today. Thank you. Thank you Mr , Mr do you want to make a contribution on that? Yes please chairman, erm as you've already heard, Leeds concerns are principally with the southwest corridor, the A sixty four corridor and to a lesser extent with the A fifty nine. Our concerns arise in relation to the new settlement of fourteen hundred households which we see as a quite different animal to the dispersed development proposed in Harrogate, Craven and so on. That concern is heightened if the settlement's intended to have growth potential beyond two thousand and six, and heightened still further if it's likely to be the focus of major employment development either in the short or longer term. The problems with these I think are principally of two kinds. Firstly effect on regeneration of the di diversionary investment which would be likely to arise, and that's as has been already mentioned, that's contrary to the Strategic Guidance for West Yorkshire. But also the increase in road commuting on routes into Leeds which are already severely affected and recognized as such by the Department of Transport and by the City Council. Leeds has received objections to its own U D P which proposed new settlements just beyond the ten miles on the A A sixty four corridor as well as elsewhere in East Leeds. If the panel were minded to recognize south west corridor as the location for a new settlement in North Yorkshire, then this is bound to influence the consideration which the City Council can give to those particular objections. Thank you. Thank you. Mr . , Flaxton. Mr made reference to the development which has taken place round York in recent years. And to the fact that Ryedale has taken much greater share of that development than the other districts round York. In fact this procedure has one on over twenty years at least. But it's proposed to continue and if one looks at table N Y thirteen, tabled today, one sees that the residential land supply in and around Greater York up to two thousand and six, disregarding the new settlement, shows that out of a total of between eight thousand three hundred and eighty and eight thousand seven hundred and fifty dwellings, between three thousand eight hundred and ninety and four thousand one hundred and sixty, are destined for Ryedale. Indeed the settlement where we are at this moment, is to be expanded very considerably. This kind of thing has an important influence on the degree to which congestion can arise. And there is undoubtedly a high degree of movement from some of the new settlements here and in Haxby Wigginton into the City Centre, as compared with some other locations round. Congestion is er towards the northeast and the north. Day by day. I referred earlier to coalescence as being as an extremely important factor. I regard it as one of the two most important factors set out by D O E in paragraph thirty three. The other is of course the question of a need for positive environmental improvement if that can be gained. Through the reclamation of derelict land or the upgrading of areas of low landscape value. I will commend to the panel paragraph two point one point three of Ryedale District Council's position statement on policy H two with which we wholly agree. I hope that the panel will feel that it has had as a result of the position statements before it, and the discussions over the last few days, sufficient information to decide whether to exclude certain sectors. I certainly think that there has been enough information to do that and I would suggest that sectors four, five and six can readily be excluded. As between the other three, I have not expressed a particular preference, but because no developer has come forward in connection with sector three, there has perhaps been less detailed attention paid to that sector the A fifty nine, than to others. One should not overlook the desirability of having the railway line, which goes fairly directly to the station on a Regional Railways route and one should not overlook the importance of having a radial road which does not go through or otherwise influence villages between it and the centre of York. One should also I believe have regard for both the southwestern sector of York and this sector, the A fifty nine, the choices for traffic in coming to the city, on reaching the outer ring road, and the inner ring road. I believe that distribution possibilities are possibly better er for erm the south west and the north west er than or the erm er north east. I entirely agree with the comments which have been made by Mr with regard to congestion resulting from erm commuting from the northeast at the present day. That is all I would say in conclusion. Thank you very much. Erm go to Mr and then Mr . Come back to Mr towards the end. ,. In view of all the information and advice that has been given during the course of this planning discussion, I'm firmly of the opinion that sectors three, four and five do not fully comply with the requirement of P P G three. However in looking at sectors one, two and three, I think there are two important issues to consider, one is the ability of any one sector to maximize the use of public transport facilities and to encourage their improvement. I think all those three sectors have the ability to do that. The other consideration is clearly one of the threat of coalescence. Because this is indeed one of the important criteria set out in P P G three, that is the question to respect local preference as well as have the support of the local authority. It is for this reason therefore that I think that sector six is more likely to threaten coalescence with existing communities than sectors one or two. We have heard that Selby District has the capacity to absorb a new settlement, the will to absorb a new settlement and indeed, the need for a new settlement to . It is for this reason that I suggest therefore that the preferred areas of search should be confined to the corridors of Selby West or Selby East. Thank you. Thank you very much. Can I just clarify I'm sorry It's alright. It's alright, Mr . Mr , you ruled out initially sectors three, four and five Three four and five. You r did I understand correctly that you ruled out sector six on grounds of coalescence? Sector six because there's more chance of the threat of coalescence within that sector. I'm grateful thank you. Mr Chris , Wood Frampton. It is my view that when you look at all the locational criteria contained in policy H two and as we've discussed them, you'll reach the conclusion that there is one corridor that best meets those criterion, is the A sixty four northeast of York, sector six. I consider that this is this conclusion is reached having regard to the following seven points. Firstly, the A sixty four is to be dualled,in the national road programme. When it's dualled the road will have the spare capacity to accommodate a new settlement and we've heard that there is no Department of Transport objections to a new settlement along the A sixty four northeast of York. Secondly there are no mineral workings in the A sixty four northeast sector. Thirdly there is limited high quality agricultural land within that sector. Fourthly there is scope to assimilate a new settlement into the landscape without coalescence. There is extensive areas of woodland, many commercial plantations which can become the starting point for accommodating the new village. Fifthly, a location northeast of York for important reasons that have already been identified, will minimize the impact upon would minimize the impact of the new development upon the West Yorkshire conurbation and the objectives of urban regeneration that are taking place there. Sixthly, a new settlement to the northeast of York on the A sixty fi e A sixty four would be well located to existing employment, retail and leisure development that's taken place there. I draw your attention to the plan at appendix five of my statement. I mean you can see, it's self evident as you travel to Strensall that that development has been highly successful and s and the s the final seventh point is that the A sixty four north east corridor can be well served by the public transport to achieve the close relationship between the workplace and home, as national policy now seeks. And you can the new v village can bring forward with it a park and ride initiative that will complement other such initiatives taking place around York. Thank you. Thank you very much. Do any of the districts want to be drawn on a choice or are you still maintaining the line which you have persisted in maintaining since we embarked on this discussion on Thursday, where we have two districts well sorry, Mr and Mr not agreeing in principle with the new settlement. Er do you want to pursue any point on that? No? Mr and Mr ? Please. Mr . Lindsay er Harrogate Borough Council. I think er what this exercise today has shown us is that only about half the factors in H two er have a strategic dimension in so far as they would affect a choice between broad sectors around York. Er the other half of the factors really do depend on detailed site conditions, and cannot easily form part of a strategic assessment. I don't think we've heard enough here to make the choice, I think we need to look at both strategic and local factors in the co on a comprehensive and comparable basis. I think that really does lead us back to the starting point which is the County Council's view that er er that comprehensive study needs to be done as a matter of urgency and steps are being taken to get that work moving very soon now. And er I think all all the exercise today has underlined the the common sense of that approach. Thank you. add anything to that Mr ? Or are you just going to concur with what he said? I'd agree with it fully. Thank you. Mr . Sorry sorry Mr . Yes er Michael , Hambledon District Council. I don't think I need to say anything further on the Council's erm position on the new settlement erm or reiterate Hambledon's earlier view that it's n its er view that the settlement is not needed and cannot be justified. In relation to erm Mr 's point, erm I would raise one particular point of concern and erm this is the possibility of delay in in identifying a district and an area if this step by step approach is adopted. Erm at Thursday's and Friday's session last week, we heard the possibility of a further erm E I P to consider the issue, erm introducing a possible delay of another eighteen er months er before more s specific strategic guidance would be available on this issue. Erm Hambledon believes erm not withstanding its overall objection, that such a delay is unacceptable. Particularly because of its im its implications on district wide local plan preparation. Erm it would be difficult for Greater York authorities erm other than York to progress their district wide local plans until the matter's been resolved. Erm and I'd remind the panel of the statements in P P G twelve erm paragraph three seven, that the government expects to see substantially complete coverage er for district wide local plans within five years. Now irrespective of what substantially complete coverage means or from one t when one takes the five year period, the message is clear, erm local authorities are expected to get on with their district wide local plans and I believe that this step by step approach on the new settlement is going to introduce delays into district wide local plan preparation. Thank you for that. Mr ? , D O E. Thank you sir. Sorry. , D O E. Er I'm sure that members of the panel appreciate why I've remained silent during the discussion of item two D, but does anyone in the room who doesn't fully understand, it's simply that the Secretary of State of exercises role in relation to a new settlement. He may for instance need to intervene at the modification stage of the structure plan, or it could be that he will have to deal with appeals against non-determination of applications made by prospective developers. Or he could even be faced with the prospect of calling about individual applications or even heaven forbid, the structure plan itself. One point the department is very clear on, the section paragraph five thirteen of P P G twelve is as crystal clear as it could be, the structure plan should indicate the general location of individual developments likely to have a significant effect on the plan area. I find it difficult to imagine a form of development which would have a much more significant impact than that of a new settlement. We therefore feel it is absolutely vital that if there is to be a new settlement, it should come forward through the structure plan. The question posed in er item two D, should the policy include specific guidance on the location of the new settlement, we would hope that in the light of what you've heard, and in the light of the statement I've just read out, that you would have no difficulty coming to a conclusion on that question, just as it stands. I fear however in view of what we've heard from the two sides of the table, you will have rather more difficulty in coming even to a recommendation as to specific guidance on which sector of Greater York, this new settlement should be located if indeed you are minded to recommend in favour of one at all. We would have hoped that the county and district councils would have so organized their selection processes that they could have come to this examination in public fully prepared to argue the merits of geographical location. We have heard many times why that has not been possible and it's no good crying over spilt milk, as they say in these parts. It's a question of what happens from now on that's very important. I believe it's the intention of the authorities to try and do some very detailed work over the coming months, then armed with that detailed assessment and hopefully armed with your recommendations they may aim to be pr proceed to the modification step of the structure plan in a way that which will lead to a speedy conclusion. I find difficulty believing that they will be able to do that, simply because the detailed assessment that has been done to date, as we've heard so many times is is incomplete. But th the County Council may may yet surprise us on that score. All I would say is that, when the plan reaches modification stage, the Department will be looking at that the situation very closely indeed, and at that stage I would fully expect that even though I won't be here to to do it myself, as I shall have retired by that stage, I feel it is more than likely that the Department will be making a submission to ministers at that stage in the proceedings. Just how they react obviously will depend on the state of play which has been reached. All I would wish to say to you now sir is I hope you will feel able to make a recommendation on the direct question, should the policy include specific guidance. If you are, feel able to go one step further, and make specific guidance as to sectors in the way we've described, by reference to physical features, that would be fine. But I fear that you may not be able to do that. At the end of our statement sir we we did make reference to the er er removal possible removal of the article fourteen . And I noticed at one point in the discussion, this was queried by H B F. I think they feared that we wouldn't at that stage we'd be opening up free for all of the kind which we've obviously been seeking to avoid thus far. You'll notice though, in our statement it did say, on completion of the formal modification processes. And we of course in in our thesis, that would mean on completion of the selection process, if a new settlement is to be part of the plan. We wouldn't expect the County Council to to be proceeding to approval of the plan, but merely an approval in principle or an approval of the concept. We would expect them to be proceeding on the basis of a specific sector, a general location in sufficient detail to enable them to place a symbol on the key diagram in the approximate location where they think a new settlement should go. And it was on that basis that we made that statement there. That's that remains our intention, we wouldn't want this article fourteen direction to remain in force indefinitely, even though g the G D O said that we can do that. We wouldn't wish to do that, but nor would we want to open up a free for all. We would want this to be seen logically, through approval of the structure plan, to be taken up in r in the relevant local plan, and for that relevant local plan to then sort out competing claims from prospective developments, in mu in much the same sort of exercise as we've seen in the structure plan but obviously in a more detailed way. So we would hope that by releasing that article fourteen direction at that stage, all we would really be doing is making it possible for the l particular local plan to receive more specific impetus from real life applications within the general locations specified in the structure plan. Beyond that, clearly I can't go. If that stage has not been reached at the end of the formal application processes it it' not for me to judge now what the Department'll do. But that's what lay behind the statement there. And I think that's all I would wish to say sir unless you've any further questions . No that's fine Mr , thank you. There is Mr , the outstanding question about when is a settlement not a settlement, but before that, I I found this quick s this this this round the table summing up, very useful Mm. if nothing for the fact that the message that is coming home loud and clear is this request for clarification, the advent of certainty, one way or another. Er and I again I have to say that we have not come to any conclusions about the new settlement, but certainly if there is to be a new settlement, then generally people would like more certainty. Erm we've heard about the measured approach, the step by step approach er and Mr , has said, please make your mind up one way or another so we can proceed with our local plan preparation. My question to Mr which he might like to comment on in his his summing up, is we've heard about the forthcoming meeting which you're going to arrange with the district council's, how soon would you be able to make progress? Would when would you be in a position to clarify, to your colleagues never mind anybody else, when would you be in a position to clarify which way forward? If we were minded to go down the new settlement line? , North Yorkshire. Well can I say first of all that the meeting to which you refer will take place this coming Monday and I suspect that it will be the first of possibly two or three meetings which I suspect are going to follow rather quickly, one after the other. Er I suspect that through December and into early January, we would be moving towards agreement er hopefully agreement on the location for the new settlement. So that into the turn of the year, I can't be any more precise er than that, certainly we would hope to be seeing er the wood er from the trees. And quite clearly there is a lot of work that needs to be done because if we look back on the discussion this afternoon, er this morning er and this evening, quite clearly there are conflicting views and conflicting interpretations about various criteria, various elements of information that should er er should go into the mix. Erm as I digest Mr 's comments and the various implications erm of the things that he said, it's more and more confirming for me that perhaps we may well be right in the step by step measured approach because quite clearly erm I suspect that if we run at this stage a preferred location, erm I suspect that the the opposition to that and there would be opposition to it, may well have may well prejudice the principle er of the new settlement. The County Council's view has always been, before you face that hurdle, let's agree or get the principle accepted and then we move as quickly as we possible er as we possibly can towards a preferred erm location. That is our timescale, I know the County members and certainly the the three district council members are eager to have this matter resolved because, let's be perfectly fair, it's been hanging around now since nineteen eighty nine in a sense. But it's been hanging for the l particular local plan to receive more specific impetu done this exercise properly. They've done it step by step and they've done nothing er to my mind that would prejudice full public consultation and public confidence erm er in the process. As I look back on what happened this morning and this evening, er er nothing I've er suggests to me that any one sector should be discounted at present and I think er on the basis of what I've heard at the moment, erm all the sectors that er that we've discussed today, er are still in the frame. We said it would be difficult, erm and that discussion has proved how difficult it is to come to a firm conclusion. It may well be that weighting needs to be applied to er er the various criteria and I think that elected members are the appropriate starting point for er applying er er applying that weighting. Because it may well be again that more specific area of search will meet all twelve, on hundred percent erm of the criteria er that we er are putting forward. I did find the discussion interesting and illuminating, er it's gonna be a difficult task and I think that task for the County Council and certainly three of the district councils, starts on Monday afternoon. Thank you. Well on that note I propose to conclude The the difficult question of what is a settlement is going to be answered by Mr . Oh yeah, the settlement. Malcolm , County Council. I feel as though I've been asked to define, what is the length of a piece of string? I seem to recall I did once look in a dictionary to try and find out the definition of settlement, all it said was something like a place where people settle. It didn't seem to be getting me very far. It seems to me there are there are several elements to definition of settlement. First there's the idea it is a place where people live. Er it is not an industrial estate in the open countryside. I think the second element is that there must be some sense of a concentrational identity erm so that the the sporadic development that one does tend to see in the countryside, I don't believe constitutes a settlement. And the third element is a question of size. I don't believe that a a single farm with a collection of farm buildings around it constitutes a settlement in the way that is normally used in planning terms. Or that perhaps two or three dwellings together necessarily constitutes a settlement. But I think that is very much a question of personal perception. Trying to bring those those elements together into a single definition, I I had to use an established grouping of permanent habitation. And more than that I'm afraid I cannot tell people. There is no definition in the approved structure plan? No. There isn't Thank you. Thank you Mr . On that note I propose to close the discussion on H two, can I thank everybody for their participation, their contribution. We found it extremely helpful. Give us a headache of er where we take our thoughts from here. Can I say also a particular thank you to the unsung heroes sitting in the corner here. And without them we couldn't function properly. Anyway, thank you all very much, er some of you we will see again tomorrow, ten o'clock. Right can you have a look at those Just have at the answers to this. Did you find any difficulties at all? N no I don't . It looks all right from here. Yeah. Keep the tracing paper if you need it. That's all right. yes that's okay that's fine. Hang on. Oh yes alright from there. How did you come to that conclusion? What ? the petrol station the petrol station, isn't it? Mm. Mm five minutes. It's five minutes and fifteen. I misread the . That's okay. in the first fifteen minutes of the journey Yeah er What's fifteen minutes as part of an hour? Quarter of a hour. Quarter of an hour. That's point two five. Mm. You can't Mm. You can't have time as a decimal, time is not a decimal. Mm. Okay? I can't remember what it's called it's in sixties whatever that is. Mhm. Yeah. S Time is not a decimal so you can't operate time as a decimal. Nobody ever used to make that mistake at one time you know why? No. Because everything worked was wasn't in decimal. Mm. All the distances were in twelves Mm. and for and weights were in fourteens so Aha. nobody ever thought about anything being a decimal. Mhm. So nobody had any problems with that. No of course that everything's de- you know everything's decimal time Yeah. becomes quite an awkward calculation. It didn't used to be. It didn't. not been interrupted. same constant speed. So you work the same the constant speed. . Yeah w shouldn't matter , yeah. that's fine. Aha. Doesn't make any difference at all that doesn't. Erm so you would have done er yeah then you've got You've got your speed of distance over time correctly. Mm. Or time is distance over speed. It's all right, but you've then gone that's not nought point two five minutes the speed's per hour. Isn't it? Mm. The speed is per hour isn't it? So that would have been point two five which should have been fifteen minutes. Yes that's sixtieth of an hour Which is point two five of an hour. Be very careful with your Mm. units. Yeah. That's Mm. The calculation's fine what you've done's fine just mucked Put the wrong the units up. Yeah. Right? So that's How many minutes earlier? Now you've not done that you've actually done his journey time . Mm. Mm? So careful read the question. You must read the question! Alright, how're you getting on with them? Or have I stopped you? Didn't know what I'm supposed to be doing with that . Your supposed to be doing them rotate them through Do this one first. How do you mean them? Hundred and eighty degree rotation around C. doing it Do you mean drawing it on Using this drawing it? Yeah. You've done rotations and reflections and so forth haven't you? Mm. Mhm. that rotated a hundred and eighty degrees about that. Mm. brought it by isn't it? But I know what to do I don't know what you want me to do. I want it I want it shown as a hundred and eighty degree rotation. There's an exam question Rotate that Yeah. about that point the hu Through a hundred and eighty degrees . Mm. four. What your not so Fine. Yeah. Okay yes good. That's alright. Use the patterns to write down the A three. A Three is that that that that that. A four Lets have a look. Is it done? No I haven't done anything yet I'm on . Look I can't do it! I can't . You haven't done rotations have you? Yeah I have but I don't how to do them like this I've not seen it been d drawn out like that. Right draw something from the centre of rotation to the the figure. Mm. Rotate that bit through a hundred and eighty degrees where's it go? Over here. Over there. There's a hundred Yes. and eighty innit? Trace the original. Yes. Mm. Round the centre of rotation it to the spoke while she's up the other spoke. Dum. Mm. Mm? Right? Yeah. Yeah. it's as simple as that. Isn't it? . Go on then. as if you've drawn. Have you got a pencil? No I was looking at the other one. No I want it actually done I want you to physically do 'em . Right erm So they go into your brain Mm. via your eyes and and finger ends and so forth. Mhm. Okay? Mhm. I suppose I should put Nyah Right okay simultaneous equations. Yeah. With some degree of er success I trust this time. I think I messed number one up. Ah dear. Yes you did. You know why? No. You made the classic mistake the only mistake there is here you multiply everything by two Mm. So that's twenty six. Mm. That's the only I mean that's th that's the real problem with this thing It's one the the difficulties you end up with You see you must remember to multiply everything that's there by the number you want to multiply, not just half of it. And that's all the problem is. I think I've done the others right. Yes that looks alright. Yeah. Well you can always tell can't you? How do you tell? St st st just stick Go back and check it the numbers back in. Just put the numbers back in. Yeah it's alright. Yeah it's alright. You see you managed to plough through these quite r readily did you? Sort of. Ah. What on earth's that question? Two A plus Oh it's an A is it? Oh I beg your pardon sorry I changed it to . That's al that's alright that's alright I'm with that. I understand what you're doing it's a substitution. It's a little like As and Bs. Er it doesn't make any difference does it? No but I'm used to Xs and Ys. Yes but A Yeah that's alright erm except for examples we where do up to? Ten. Up to ten. Yes. Have a go at fourteen and sixteen. Whilst I sit here and admire your expertise and Ha. general facility at this subject. Mm. And say to yourself Nine seven nine C plus Yep. Or four Y minus minus nine. Yeah. Which is probably as good. Thirteen. Thirteen is right. twenty six That's okay. Y equals Y equals What're you gonna do? Divide it. Yeah, whoa. Right it's two isn't it? Mm. Okay. Substitute that back in . Yes that's right. Yes. Do number seventeen. But I haven't done sixteen. Just do number seventeen I fancy seventeen better than number sixteen. Mhm, you would. I know. I have this great in-built desire to make people suffer. There's an easier way of doing it isn't there? What get rid of the Ys? Yes. Mm. Suppose so. Yeah there is is There's an awful lot of suppose so about that you only gonna do one set of calculations rather than two aren't you? Yeah. You must look at this from the minimum of Point of view of the minimum amount of labour. Yeah. Equals twenty six. No it doesn't. I beg your pardon yes it does.. Mm. Yes it does. You're right. That's right. and X equals Thirty three. Yeah. Alright we need to bother a I know you I know you can do substitution. Yeah thing about it is though when you're looking at this, you wanna be looking as to which is the Produces the smallest numbers. mm. And which produces the minimum amount of manipulation and that was that the second one wasn't it? Yeah. You had much less to do than anything else. Mm. Right that's unfortunate. That I l I've forgotten to bring the other work. However. Can I Can I just interrupt and say I've forgotten . I'm sorry is that enough? Yes. thank you. Eye's funny. Yeah. Now look it asks you for a certain number of things It says As The average doesn't it? How Yes. Do you work t an average? Average is all the tests added together Yeah, divide by the number of tests he had. That's right. So what's the total for all his test? Hundred and twenty six. Hundred and twenty six how many tests had he had? X. X. So the average is going to be? Hundred and twenty five divide by x. Hundred an Is it a hundred and twenty five? twenty six. Hundred and twenty six divided by X is that. Yeah. So what's difficult about that? Nothing. So. Now there's another two tests. Yeah. So what's the total now? Hundred and twenty eight divide by Where's a hundred and twenty eight come from? What's the total marks for the next two tests? Oh. You're told what the marks are for the next two tests aren Oh nine and eight. Nine and eight aren't they? Yeah. So what's the total marks for the Now for the the tests? How many marks you got all together? Hundred and twenty thirty forty forty two . Mm. What's a hundred and twenty six plus nine? No! What's a hundred and twenty six plus nine? Come on what's nine add six ? Hundred and thirty six. O What's nine add six? Eleven. Nine add six? Oh Fourteen. And another one. Six fifteen yeah? Yes. Six and nine it's always one less when innit when you're adding nine? So it's fifteen do it's a hundred and twenty six plus nine is? hundred and thirty forty. I want a hundred and twenty six plus nine! Oh a hundred and twenty a hundred and thirty five. Hundred and thirty five. What's five and eight? Not Thirteen. Thirteen so the answer's gonna be a hundred and? Forty three. Hundred and forty three. You know what the a en end number's gonna be every time i Don't you? Yeah. Mm. Hundred and forty three. That's right so the total's a hundred and forty three. So what's the what's the average gonna be or even the mean? Hundred and forty three divide by By X plus two. Splendid. Can we have it written down like real mathematicians? Ah wonderful. Wonderful. hundred and forty five. Yes No I said a hundred and forty Forty three three yes. Over Divide by X plus two . plus two that's right. Now what's the next part of the question say? If if a If his average for the first X test was one greater than his average for X plus two tests . plus two tests . Use results of one and two To form the equation and find the value of X. Now what it just said think of another way of saying that. Work out what X is. No you can't work out what X is you haven't got a c hope of working out wh Form an equation. Form an equation. But what's one side of the equation going to be? Hundred and twenty six divide by X. Plus? Hundred and fort No no plus two No no read what it says. If his average for the first X tests is one greater than the average Sorry beg your pardon I've got it round me round me neck. If his average for the first X t is one greater than his average for the X plus two tests So a hundred and twenty six over X is gonna equal? What he got in the first O in the second lot isn't it? Plus one. Mm. Yes. So right it down. Yeah come on! Just write it down! Hundred and twen What? What I've just told you hundred and twenty six over X is equal? Hundred and forty three Three divide by X plus two Yeah. Plus one. Yes. Plus one. Why is it plus one there? Cos it's says it's This is one more than that isn't it? This is one more than that. So shouldn't that be plus one? How do you make them equal? Oh yeah. Yes think about it carefully. How do you make them equal. Mm. That's right so. Now what are you going to do? Find the value of X. I'm an extremely patient soul as you well know,but if you say Find the value of X to me again How are you gonna find the value of X? What do you intend to do? Get rid of the denominators. Get rid of the denominators, good. Well done. Go on then. Is that right? No. What're you doing? What're you doing? Timesing it by X. Alright then times it by X. Go on then if that's what you're doing go on. Keep going! Hold on a minute you've still got a this on the bottom haven't you? To start with come on. Cos your multiplying by X go on you haven't cancelled it yet go on. Carry on. Eh? What are you doing? You can't do that! Why? Multiply everything by X go on. Ju just do every term you've got multiply it by X. Go on. I don't know how to do it though. Course you do! Just carry on multiplying things by X instead of trying to jump to conclusions. Where's the two X come from? Times it by But you've got that over th on the bottom haven't you? It's X plus two there, isn't it? It's got nothing to do when multiplying You're multiplying the top by X go on. That's better. That's right perfect. Go on then, get some stuff cancelled out. That's right. No. There's no way you can do that. But I've got an X on the top. Aye but you've got an X plus two on the bottom. So if I put X minus two on the top? No it will not cancel. Why not? You've got a hundred and forty three X over X plus two, haven't you? Hundred and forty three minus two. Hundred and forty does not work. There's no way that works at all. Just do what you've got there. Write a hundred and twenty six. Write a hundred and twenty six. That's right, equals. Hundred and forty three X over X plus two. That's right. Plus X. That's perfect now what are you going to do? Can I move across That across to this side? You can multiply everything through by X plus two, yes. Go on. Bracket, X plus two never mind about this s Mm. Equals that plus Come on you're multiplying by X plus two. No you're multiplying by X plus two. You've missed a You've now dropped a plus sign out haven't you? And you've dropped an X out. Why? You're multiplying this term by X plus two aren't you? You're Mm. gonna multiply everything by X plus X plus two. It just so happens that if multiply this term by X plus two you get rid of the X plus two at the bottom don't you? Mm. But everything there It's the same thing as when you were doing this. The simultaneous equations wasn't it? Why was it? You had to me s make sure that you multiply every term out, haven't you? Yeah. So here you've got to multiply every term out. Do not forget that that is a term on its own it's got n connected to this yet. No. You're a very very careful about that so start getting it tidied up then. Expand the brackets I think is probably the best thing. Hundred and twenty six X S X that's right. Plus two hundred and fifty two. Equals Hundred and forty three X X Plus X squared X squared plus two X. That's right. Right now things are getting a bit better aren't they? Come on! What're you gonna do now? Do all the Xs on one side. Well I'd collect the things together that were the same for a start I think. What d'you mean? Well you've got some Xs to collect together haven't you? Oh. Mm? That's better. That's simplified it. Yeah. Now s You can start you've still gotta get the every I would get everything over to one side of the equals sign. Why? What's this ? Then use your quadratic . This is a quadratic isn't it? Yes good. Does it matter which way you put it? Well I always like to read it from left to right but it doesn't matter really. Yeah but I mean you can do that if you want to. I would have put all the the er Hundred and forty five X minus hundred and twenty six X . Yes. Plus x squared minus two five two Minus two five two. Equals nothing. Yes. So that's going to be Don't look at me like that! Nineteen X. Mhm. Plus X squared. Yeah. Minus two five two . minus two five two Equals nothing . Equals nothing that's right. Now if you're gonna do this you really want it in the form of X squared first don't you?really to make it To make the thing easy to work, aren't you? Well that's gonna be your A. Yeah it is. B and that's gonna be C . It's much be It's much better to see it as A square As X squared plus te nineteen X plus minus two two five, really. Two five two equals nothing. Right. Formula. I don't know. You're gonna have some tremendously large numbers if you work the formula aren't you? Yes. I mean B squared's nineteen squares you know just under four hundred isn't it? That's twenty times twenty. You imagine four times that. A lot. It's a lot isn't it? But they're only numbers. that's true. But perhaps it's easier I wonder what are other factors of two hundred and fifty two? One. One and two hundred and fifty two, yes very good yes. Two. Yes good. We want a difference of nineteen somewhere don't we? That's easy. We drop the calculator everywhere. Well you can drop the calculator if you want it would be better if you pick 'em up and stick the numbers in. How're you gonna do? Two hundred and fifty two divide by nineteen. What you got? Thirteen point two six three one five Yes. seven nine eight. Yes. I don't think that's right. Try the square root of two five two. Fifteen point eight seven four five Yes yes ,a difference. Don't know does sixteen go into it just try sixteen into two five two. Fifteen point seven five. So we want something like erm Seven and sixteen, well that doesn't work Sorry seven and twenty six. Is that right? No. How about No, gives a difference of nineteen. Use the formula then, we're just sitting here wasting time. Minus nineteen or minus B plus or minus the square root of B Minus B Plus or minus plus or minus the square root of the square root of B squared plus No. Minus Minus two B C Minus four A C Four A C All over Two A. Two A is right. So what's A? It's an X! Must be true. Yes. I am delighted you agree. Yeah. Minus nineteen Yes. plus or minus The square root of nineteen squared minus four times nineteen squared minus four times one one times times two No It's not times two five minus two five two . times minus two five two Lovely. All over Over two Two times one. Yep. X squared. X equals not X squared. Minus nineteen plus or minus plus or minus Can I do that Root all in one? Yeah! I can do it on here, oops! Hope so. Square root of nineteen squared minus four times times minus Minus two five two. Answer. Nineteen squared's three hundred and ninety ninety one I think. Mm. Three hundred and sixty one. Really? Three sixty one times eight thousand There's summat wrong. Nineteen squared minus four times one No it's minus It's plus It's nineteen squared plus eight nought one nought nought eight. Mm. Four time two five two. Two hundred and fifty times four is a thousand Two hundred and fift It's minus! It's minus times a minus Isn't it? Four four times two th two five two is one thousand and eight isn't it? Yes. Two fifty times four is a thousand. So two five two times four is t one thousand and eight, plus three hundred and chunkety chunk Three hundred and sixty one. Mm. Which is one three six nine. That's more like it. Yeah but what about mm. above answer. Mm. What about that? Where do get that from? Because what you did was you did er nineteen squared Yes. minus four. I don't know why I don't how that works Would that be in brackets? Of course it is. I didn't put a brackets there. Well you would have to although I would have though it might have worked algebraically that's certainly wrong though. What did we say? One three six nine . Nine. One three six nine, yes. All over Er you want the square root of that. that's it all over two. Two. Yep, so it's minus nineteen plus or minus Plus or minus root one three six nine. Square root One three six nine. That's interesting. Ah! Yes go on. Yeah it is isn't it? Yes. Go on then. You'll remember that. I will. Thirty seven. So the f One answer is f fourteen Don't! Just don't! It's not actually. One answer's nine innit? Minus nought point five? Yeah. And the other answer is? Can you tell me how managed to produce nought point five, how you managed to produce that? Don't know. Minus nineteen plus thirty seven without the aid of a calculator must be about eighteen mustn't it? Mm. The difference between thirty seven and nineteen's about eighteen innit? Approximately? Divide that by two, answer? Nine. Nine. Mm. Engage brain Th You must regard a calculator with the greatest and gravest of suspicion. Cos it's not actually working algebraic that calculator at the present moment I don't know what you've got it programmed in What you've got it at but it's not working algebraic. Now it might work. No unless we have to Minus nineteen minus thirty seven divide by two minus twenty eight? Yeah that's better. I wonder if minus. Wait you've got minus fifty six haven't you here? this is minus fifty six if you use your brain. And divided by two is minus twenty eight. Yeah. Yes minus twenty eight. Now if you You take the difference between nineteen and thirty seven you get the answer eighteen don't you? Yes. You divide that by two you get the answer nine . Nine. Mm. But why isn't my calculator working? Because you haven't got it in the correct mode it's not working algebraic. Which is in what function? Who knows what your calculator and that's a such a wonderful piece of work that. Yeah but Scie Scientific or You want it in scientific mode if it says scientific Yeah it does. In that case use it in scientific and then it will work that way. Will it? Yeah well it should do. Anyway. . Okay. Let's read the second part of this question cos it's taken us er quite some time to do it but excellent question. Hasn't it Right Right let's read the second part of this. It has an average of thirteen point five marks for the first X plus one tests. His mark on the last test gave him a final average of fourteen marks for X plus two tests. What was his marks for the last test. How do you work out his total marks for his X plus one tests. Thirteen point five divided by X plus one. That's his No no you've got his average as thirteen point five haven't you? How do you work out his total marks which is what we're really looking for? Times X plus Yes, it's thirteen point five times X plus one. And how do you work out his total marks for his X plus two tests? Fourteen times thirteen plus two. No no no. Why? Fourteen times what? Times X plus two. Yeah. That's what I said! Was it? I'm sorry I misheard you. So what it's alright. Mm. I misheard you okay? Mm. So, it might be a good idea to write that down and work it out. Thirteen point five Yes times Will you stop doing that! What? That! What's wrong with it? How do you write a multiplication in algebra? You're gonna multiply that by X plus one aren't you? Mm. How do you write that? Hundred and thirty five X plus one. Bracket. X plus one. X plus one. Ha? Suppose so. That's how you write it. Minus fourteen Never mind about this silliness, that you've been allowed to get away with. Right go and work them out then. Thirteen point five times one is? Thirteen point five innit? Yeah. Mm. That's right. Okay. So what's your total marks? Sorry what's the difference? Fourteen point five. You know what he total mark for his X plus one test was don't you? Mm. And you know the total mark was X plus two tests. It actually asks you for the mark he obtained for his final tests doesn't it? Yeah. So if you take two away, one from the other, you'll have the mark Nought point five. for his test won't you? So you'll have nought point five X plus? Plus Point about it is y you can't see it, can you unless you've got it written down so write it down. it's thirteen well it's fourteen X isn't it? Mm. Plus twenty eight minus thirteen point five X minus thirteen point five isn't it? Or minus thirteen X plus thirteen point five isn't it? Why is it? Well you're taking the difference between the two aren't you? So don't you just minus them? Yeah. So that's fourteen X plus twenty eight minus thirteen point five X minus thirteen point five isn't it? Yes? Mm. So that's nought point five X, now what? Plus Plus what's the difference here? Hundred and thir Hundred What's twenty eight minus thirteen point five? Oh it's point five! Yes. What's twenty eight minus thirteen poin Fourteen point five. Fourteen point five. Okay. So wouldn't That's you times it by two? Another student has his average as thirteen point five marks for the first blah blah blah, right. Which marks for the last test give a final average of fourteen marks for So the one test is gonna give him that isn't it? That's right you agree isn't it? That's his total marks for X plus one tests, is there. Total marks for S plus plus two tests is there. The actual mark is that. That's for his nought nought point five X. So to get those two up to one X up to one X you should times by two which is twenty nine. Which I don't believe. Well do you times it by four? No give but his mark on his last test gave him the final average of fourteen marks for X plus two tests. So that's his total there and his total there. Yes it's gonna be doubled hasn't it to give you that? Oh! Oh dear! How daft can you get? What's the value of X? W we worked that out somewhere didn't we? We did didn't we? Oh! Oh! Nearly as bad as . Dear oh dear! Eh? Oh. Innit? I'm very tired . So what do you do? Times thirteen point five X by Well you do thirteen point five times ten if you want. Yes. And fourteen times eleven. Why eleven? Well nine plus two is eleven isn't it? Yes. Hundred and fifty four. Now who is being dormant? And you've got it haven't you? Then you find the difference? Yes. That makes sense. actually work here hasn't it? Does that give you the same answer? Yes it should do. Let's just check it go on. You had thirteen point five times ten which I think is a hundred and thirty five in normal circumstances. Yes. And a hundred and f fourteen times eleven. Go on it's a hundred and fifty four. Minus nineteen. No minus a hundred and thirty five. One fifty four minus hundred and thirty five. Nineteen. Nineteen. Which is wh what we would have done if we'd done If we'd done that better. Yeah but it we it's a spurious argument because you've got nought point five X haven't you? Yeah. Nought point five X i Nought point five of X i is four point five isn't it/ Yeah. Four point five plus fourteen point five Answer? Nineteen. Nineteen. We actually got it right both ways. But it would have been simpler to have done it that way I think. And quicker. And quicker. But not as entertaining. Yes. Not as entertaining. Mm. If you like. Yes. They have a tendency to ask questions not quite as comp Not quite as abstract as that. Intricate. Not even intric Not quite as abstract cos th the the tendency is to ask the question The average weight of nine people is whatever it is, you know somebody else has added Yeah questions. Yeah yeah. Rather than quite as abstract as that But you can cope with abstract as that you can do A level. Yeah. You have to cope You have to You have to be as abstract as that. Which will not do you any harm. Good. A man bought three box of Dutch cigars. Good lord how appalling in this day and age! Three boxes! At X pence per box, and two boxes of Havana cigars at Y pence per box. Calculate terms of X and Y Cost of the five boxes. So what's the cost of the Dutch ones? How many boxes? Three X. Splendid. What's the cost of the Havanas? Two Y. So what's the total cost? Five X two Y. Eh? Five X plus two Y. Five X plus two Y not just five x two Y. Plus two Y. Five X plus two Y. Wonderful. Go on the average cost per box in terms of X and Y. So what's the average b cost per box gonna be?five X plus two Y you better write that down before our brains refuse to accept any more information. Two Y is the total cost, how do you find the average? How do you find an average? Add them together and divide by the number you've got. How many have you got. Five. No you haven't. We've got five boxes. No you haven't got five boxes. Why? Read it again. Three boxes of Dutch Whoops! That's supposed to be three X . That's a three. Yes that's better. So you haven't got . F Divide that by five. Divide that by five. Yes. The whole of it? Yeah. Cos that's the total price isn't? Total cost. Total of boxes you mean. Total cost. Five's the total number of boxes but that the top one's the total cost isn't it? Yea. That's right. Yep. Yes. Oh.. At a profit of thirty three percent of their costs . How do Thir work that out? Thirty three and a third percent is a third. Yes. So I want a third of their their costs. So what did he sell the Dutch box Which is the Dutch which is that half. Well,later he sold his three boxes of Dutch cigars at a profit of thirty three of their cost. Mm? So So that's three X divided by No it's not three X divided by five, it's says of their cost. Thy cost three X didn't they? Yes. And the sold them for a third profit so what did he sell them for? X plus a third. If he sold the things for Four thirt Aye. Four thirds. No. I if If he's got he bought them for three quid? Yes. Yeah/ Which is highly improbable but he bought them for three pounds Yes. In the days when a gold sovereign meant something when you went abroad Yes. And he sold them that was his cost was three pounds. And he h He sold them at a profit of thirty three and a third percent which is a third. What did he sell them for? Four pounds. Four quid. So if he four X. No if he cost him three X, what's he gonna sell them for? Four X. Yes. So he sells his Dutch s cigars for four x. When he only bought them for three X? That's right. So he sold them for four X. Yeah. Then what did he do with his havanas? HE gave away the other two boxes as presents. Strange man. A strange fellow. Well no it probably a little bit of sweetener for a business deal later one perhaps? Mm. Yes. I used to get bottles of whisky at Christmas and so forth. And we stole it . Yes you now what it m Yes you know all about that? Yes. Yes. So it's a box of h s Havana cigars. So how much profit did he make on that? He didn't did he? He made absolutely no profit at all, in fact he made a loss of? Two X. Two Y. Yes two Y. Yeah. Calculate the amount he received for the sale of the cigars. Present off your aunt and it's er like a, a little baby and you don't like it and you've got to write a thank you letter to her, but you can't tell her that you don't like it, and you can't lie. Where is it? It's there love. Well what's it for then? I mean, did you invent this story yourself then? Go on tell dad. And then you can watch an er erm Got my Walkman there? Well not it isn't, it's my own personal one! Did you invent this story yourself? Yeah. But we and there was erm, and there was another one and you'd got to do about erm some, someone gets kidnapped and erm you have to do it, and they ha some somebody finds out and they erm rescue the Oh! How are yo , are you listening to that now? I'd have a job! I've got nothing in my ears! Well, what are you la like that for? Leave that please! Don't touch it thank you! This is my own personal stereo Walkman. Well let me have a go of it! Well, I don't really, but there you are. Anyway, put the te erm, television on and go and get your hands washed, you can help me dish the dinner up, and then er , dad's going to the doctors. Mum, tell me, how does it work? Well I've got all these tapes, I've got to fill them all, I've got these you see, and it's all to do for market research on how people speak. See? On how people speak? Yes. On English language. So is it turned on now? It is turned on now. And it is taping every word that I say? Yes ! Oh God! That's just charming! Well, are you gonna help me dish the dinner up then first? Tell you what, I'll read you my story. How's that? Well I hope they, don't suppose they want to hear your story. Right. This is, I've got my from school, it says,I was shopping in town looking at some clothes when, suddenly I got pulled back from one of the, the changing room. I felt something horrible pressed against my head, talk girly and you're history! Immediately I knew I was being kidnapped. The man told me to daughter so that they I was being kidnapped. I did what he said and walked out the shop with him. He took me to his flat which was quite high up. He took my in a room with a table and a pile of paper. In the That's , you don't spell daughter like that! It's D A U G H T E R. I thought it was a bit short. the room with a table and pile of paper and a pen. Also, there was a loaf and a bread a, a loaf of bread and a sink with a glass. You eat bread, drink water, play with paper ! And you clean your teeth! Go and clean your teeth! Are you sure it is, taping every word you say. Emma! You can listen to it later. I have got And is it sent is it gonna be sent to you though? I'll read it to you later. Go and get, move this! Have you just bought that? No. A lady has. Why, she gave it to you? Yes, she comes and collects it in a week's time. Will you move that! Mm. Come and help me dish this dinner up. Right. And tell your dad to get ready to go to the doctors please. I'm going to put this away. And I'm going to wash my hands. And er help you do dish dinner up. Right. Is dad having his dinner? No, I shouldn't think he'll have time. Right. Dad! Got to go to the doctors.? Erm Quarter to six. Quarter to six I've gotta go. Oh sorry! I thought it was twenty to. Just get some knife and forks out for me. Alright then. You know my essay? You can, you can win something and then they'll it's something about going to see the Queen! Oh! Could, the thing yesterday? No. Yes. Mother's Day. And Mr I mean Mr says erm if you win it you can get a chance to go and see the Queen and smile at her home and wave. Mm! Would you like that? Yes, it's not bad. Erm Rose would like it. I suppose she would. Can you stir the gravy up as well please? Okay. While I just put these few beans on for dad that we don't like in the microwave. Is it baked beans? Mm. Can't stand them! Hate them! Mum! Mum! It's recording are you just speaking . No, I'm speaking normal. You mustn't. What's all that? No, get the er, like wait a minute. I'll turn the tape you do that. I'll leave dad's until he comes home from the doctors! Right, that's mine. What's the matter with him? Why's he got to go to the doctors? For his blood pressure. Well I think they're ready now. Not quite. Will they listen to us saying this then? Couldn't tell you. I'll read it to you later and tell you exactly what's happening. Excuse me please! Oh sorry! We'll get the turkey out of the oven. Turkey? Well it's it's er what's his name? Bernard Matthews' turkey roast. Oh it's looks horrible! Oh shut up! I don't know what you do want! I know what I want. Be a nice dinner, this will. I wish you'd never bought this hair band. You don't like, you, I want you to go and look at your bedroom. Why have you tidied it? Yes. When you've, that gravy's got thick just go and have a look please. It feels thick. Right, turn it down to number one. Better make sure though hadn't I? Yeah it does, it feels thick. Let's have a feel? Right, now turn down to number one. Go and have a look, quick. And don't put them all on there! What's that glue doing on there duck? This? Mum, Neighbours is on! Right! You can watch Neighbours then. It's my turn to watch the so that's Right. on at seven thirty. It's for erm lick o the sol the kissing dolls. Oh! Do you want it put back in here? Yeah. They're ever so old! I knocked it off. I mean, I've had them since Linda was fifteen. This tastes lovely! Want a taste? Go on then. Beautiful! Beautings!as Martin would say. ? Th on the side of the telephone. They're not. They're not. I've just come in, come in with them. What's the matter? Mum! Dad's car keys. I just come, I thought Where are they? They've got to be down somewhere duck. I come in I'll take the little one. Take the little one. They're in, Chris. When it, just let me grab this cat. And you can go out in a moment. Emma. Just look for dad's car keys, I've put them down somewhere. Right. Have you? Or ha , or did you just leave them here? No , they're here look. So he wasn't just saying it. No! I've put them down on there. It's alright. He's gone. Well how can well how can go without his keys? He's got a spare one. You want to go out for a wee wee puss? I thought he might have been blaming you like he does, er blame you for moving all his letters when you haven't even touched them! Emma! We'll play this back later you know. Not to dad. To everybody. Right! Le lis Can we have a listen? Let the cat out. Me and you will hear it. Puss! Go on. Oi! You can go out now. She doesn't want to go. Leave her, shut that door. When she wants to go you don't want to let her but when, when you want to let her in she'll Well he didn't want her to go want to go. while dad was er driving, reversing the car. Which one, which is mine? Mm! Looks alright. A bit cold but Well it won't be when you've got your gravy on it. Gravy warms it up doesn't it? Course it does. Please don't get it on your school uniform! Yes alright. Yeah, well don't! Erm have you got the knife and This meat's horrible! forks? Don't talk stupid! It's salty! Eat it! There's no salt on it. I haven't put any salt on it. It tastes salty though. I've got something stuck in my throat. You alright? Yeah. You sure? But it's not just a cough? No, it's something stuck in my throat. Like what? I don't know. Oh that's beautiful! Eat it up Emma. Is there no more erm that sewing club that you go to on a Wednesday, is it finished? No. It was on last night. Did you forget? No. You just didn't want to go? Mm. Didn't sh She wanted to make a finished that bit that I'm on. They've done and they're on their second thing. Oh! So what do you do now then? Then we go to that every week like sort of like, say erm forgotten it. So you're not going again? Try not to. So that's not fair really when people have put theirselves out. No, I've said that before. Yes. I've told you that. It's only like eating chicken. Yes he must be. What you been doing at Adele's house then? Writing an essay. Oh! What's her story about then? Same thing as mine. Pardon? Same as mine, about a kidnapping. Only hers is different? Mm. It's got to be. Mm. We've, we've just been told to write it about either kidnapping or erm about the thing that I told you Mm. or about how er Oh! Well she sho supposed to be a vegeta vegetarian? What? Did Claire come round? No. Why not? No. It was . Anyway, I told Adele that what happened was, about what you said to me when I go about sort it out. I told Jessica not to bother phoning me . Again? Again? I told her not to bother phoning me up. Why? Told Jessica not to bother phoning me up. Oh! And er, I told Adele that, and I said that erm my mum erm said that I was better off sticking with you, playing with you cos Jessica erm is just between the two like like me. Right. And erm she like, just she won't play with me but she doesn't. And she says she'll try and phone me up, but I reckon she doesn't even er I sa ask her mum. No. Is she friends with Gemma then? Mm. Like today, er she moved back to erm to er, sitting next to Diana, yesterday she was sitting next to me. You shouldn't I hadn't said a word to her and and she she was she didn't talk to me. Oh. Where's the erm the tie-backs for the curtains in your bedroom? Mm? The tie-backs for the curtains in your bedroom? Hanging on, erm a hook on the side of my cupboard. You know, cos I've brought this to stick it on with. When did you get wet through anyway, at school, was it lunchtime? I'll show you what, I tell you what's happened when things. Okay. I don't really like it anyway. I like what's on in a bit. What's that? Taggart. What would you like to eat tomorrow night? Don't know. Why? Well I don't know what to do,wha wha what, what have we had this week? Well I don't know. I'd like some chicken. We've had turkey tonight. We had chicken That doesn't taste anything like chicken! It's horrible! We've got to eat a lot more chicken now the doctor's said that he's got Have I got a ? Yeah. Now the doctor's said he's got to try and lose some weight. So, chicken's alright? Plenty of white meat. Fish, veal, chicken, turkey. What's your favourite meat? Chicken. My favourite white meat is chicken. And what's your favourite red meat? Would you say beef? Don't know. Lamb. I don't like lamb a lot. It's too greasy. Well he's in a mess! What's the matter with his face? I don't know when he, when he was looking for that old chap, I think one of the girls threw something at him hit him in the eye. Are you eating all that chocolate tonight then? Just me?today because in because it was in your place I came back from she's got a big scratch book mum and she glued it on and came that close to me it's about there and he threw it at me and there. Can you see it? Mm. What did you say yourself? Told Mrs , and she goes oh yes, I know and she just walked off! Who's class is he in? He's in our class. Mm. Do you like Mrs ? Not really. What is it that you don't like about her? She just ignores people! And she just ignore me. She perhaps doesn't like people that tell tales. But why are they tales? But he did hurt me didn't he? Yes he did. It's, it's a bit silly is could have done some damage to your eye. I know, he could have knocked me in the eye instead of just at the side and it hurts now. So You're off I think, February the seventh? Did you give that piece of paper in today? All that worry, worrying this morning. Quick! Sign that you said! Have you got the cat? I'm getting him now. Have you cleaned your teeth? Your school bag's in my car you know. Want that. Can you take that up then and your school uniform, and go and put that away somewhere. Are you gonna come and put me to bed or aren't you? Yes! I am! Try and get in the bed like I told you, there's a good girl. And there's a sock here look. And there's another one in the lounge. No. Yes I will. Course you will. Good puss! Don't worry puss, I'll get it in a minute. Puss! Puss! Have you got your plug in? What plug? Where's your Is it this low? Have I had it on before? Yes, you've had that on before. Mm. Have you got that No, your light , where's your light flo oh it's here! Okay? I'll do it for you babes. You got it switched off. You little monkey! I know. Get in. Get on there. Sorry! Ah ah! I'm sorry! It's my nails. You alright? Let's kiss it better. Come on. Lie down. Now keep it tu tucked in like that. Alright? They're thermal lined, plus a lining you've got Get changed on as well. Let's tuck this in. Where's my arm? Tt. That's my arm you're standing on! Ni-night! Night! God bless. God bless. See you in the morning. See you in the morning. Does it? Yeah. Too early, I think it shuts I don't know. Could be something like that Oh ! what she's had. that's washed. See you love. Bye. It's only turned on dad! Give us a kiss then. Bye bye! See you tonight. Yeah. Bye bye! Bye! Bye bye! Come on then, let's go then. At least I haven't got school tomorrow, I'll have a lie in tomorrow so . Bye! Bye! Off again. There you are. Emma bring the cat in please. Right. Come on then puss! Ah ya! Where's that puss? Have you got your watch on? No not yet. Do you know where it is? Oh it's on there. Over there, it's there. Right. Come on then puss. Don't forget to take those cheques with you. Might have them Dad. Emma, don't forget these things! What, my essay? Yeah. Right. Carol. What do you want dad? Where's mummy? Mm? Mummy? What do you want her for? Just want to ask her something. Go, ask her if those scales have come? Right. Mum! Mum! Mum! Mum ! Mum? What? Dad wants to know if those scales have come. No, tell him. Right. If they'd come we'd have had them in the bathroom. Right. No, mum said if they'd have come erm, she'd have put them in the bathroom. Oh. Alright. Where have you got to go today? Just to the office. Is that all? You haven't got to go nowhere like Manchester or something? No, I don't think so. To Manchester next week. Oh your hair! Have fun! Bye! Bye. Coat. Co co coat, coat, coat, coat, coat, coat, coat. Coat coat coat, coat coat coat, coat, coat coat, coat, coat, coat, coat! Turn it off! Come on! Well I'm outside waiting for you. You really ought to have had some gloves you know. Is that turned on? Yes it is. Oh God! Wish it wasn't. Right. Er, have you got a o another glove like that? In your bag? No. Mm! Well you know if it's going to continue being is that door shut? Going to continue being cold you sort some gloves out. Have you got your watch on? Yeah. What time is it with your watch? Erm . Should be alright then. Five minutes. Should just do it in time. tomorrow. What? A lie in? You that tired? You've got to do You really ought to put some tights on as well. Oh. You know when it all the tights, they're all . Well I have to wear them don't I? I don't like them. It doesn't look like it's going to rain today does it? It's not going to what? No it's not going to rain, it's going to be very cold. What sort of cold ? Just a cold dry day. Oh! You alright microphone? Got to clip that to something. Come on. Make haste. We've got to get to school. Don't muck about ! Oh dear! Oh look at them! Come on then, quick! Get out now love. What is it today? You don't know do you? Got to get you that erm leotard today, I must do that. Cheek of it! On a bus like that . Mrs . Mrs who? . No, I don't know who it was Emma. What did she do? She wasn't coming out, she like going, she wears and wears them on her back and then she's just knackered and knackered . No. Even in the morning you know just talks about it all the while and then we never get the work actually started or finished. Cos she he spent nearly all time Nattering. talking about it. I don't like being there do you? what? Look. It's only flashing. It's just that It's only flashing. but it does matter a bit though doesn't it? Oh yeah. Right by the pond. one return. Thank you. Well thank you Ian. How are you, alright? Yes thanks. Are you? Oh not too bad. I'm gonna see been on nights, I'm tired and Ah! Never mind. When do you finish? I start, er, finish, well start tonight. Half five tonight. So er hope to see the morning through probably stop for a . And finish. I finish about ten to one. It's a long time to be at work. It's extra money. Been doing it all week so I might as well get it over all in one week, like. Mm. I don't know. Oh dear ! I got the tonight I've er I've got erm the baby seat done today sort of like a baby seat in the back so I wait until I get really lumbered like, you know, cos er, if you have the then you can take it back after it's born and er, get a refund on it get all the money back. Yeah. Then they were coming back with all the bloody spot checks . Why? I think it just has to . Hello. How comes your mummy's picking us up? Why? How come what? You're always picking us up. Well what would you rather do, catch the bus? Would you rather go on bus? Yeah. What and spend your own money all the time? You got me Well it's your money really in't it, to start off with? Well it's hers really. You don't have to walk with me, you know, you can walk twenty yards in front if you want then well I'll get the car's right up there, right up top end. Yeah, but she's only waiting then in't she, outside? Aye. She wants me when they've got a club night and Oh aye. and she wants money! This one's alright. Hello. You alright? Eh? In't there? No. They should do it up. Yeah, they should. It's a what? Cos I haven't shaved. Come on then. See you Carol. See you. Bye! Hello! I saw you this morning on erm Churchill Drive, I were working, and you were. Churchill Drive. Mm. Ruddington. Yeah, I'm opening a shop round Ruddington. Oh are you? What is it? Yeah. Erm hairdressers. Oh is it? What's it called? Well it isn't at the moment. It's called the Clothes Peg. Clothes Peg on the main road? The ma on the main road. Yes. But he's now closing down? Yeah. Mm. Shop's been a smashing shop, you know that has! I know. Really lovely! That's what everybody says. It's a shame. Mm. I've bought some smashing things from them! It'll be in city whe er th to there is a hairdre all there is is one further down on the corner of Parkin Street. There is, but they're old fashioned you know. Where's your er, information then, for us to look at? I know! No, I haven't got a ! Well I want one. Yeah. I'll give some. Yeah. Will you? Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Erm, no Julie's working with me as well you see, she's coming from London and we're gonna work together. So Mm. Good! That's if I Well I've given some, I've not gone all the way round. I spent about an hour and a half this morning, I thought well it's time to stop. It's very time consuming though innit? Yeah. Cos I'm doing some mobile, well I'm hoping to get some mobile around Ruddington before it opens and so people can see me a bit before. Yes. Yeah. Before. So Lisa, it's it's going round at the moment with a mobile one, but after that it'll be from the shop . Mm! So Oh good! Well I hope it all works out alright. Oh I hope so. Ha! Such Oh! a lot of bother and trouble and trouble and Oh I know! worry isn't it? Definitely. Yeah. As long as everything goes through okay, and tha I don't see why I should have any problems. No. Of course, but Mm. the bank said yes, and the most important thing That's it! That's right. It's just red tape in't it? And, and then having it done. And getting the custom afterwards. I know! Oh God! I hope you do ! I'll see you anyway. Okay. See Bye! you. It's not doing anything. Is it the right way round? The light's not on. Oh, the light It is! is on. Wait a minute then. Tell me in a bit Emma. And tell me what else you've been doing at school? No I can't remember. Can't remember? You've been there all day and can't remember! I know. Oh, we erm, a graph. Or . Ooh! Tonight, dad's Mhm. got to go to the hospital, he's going to see a friend that's had operation and er so he wants to be out at half past six so Are we going with him? No. Right. It's you're having rice and chicken supreme tonight. Will you enjoy that? Do I like it? Mm. Have I had it before? Yes. And did I like it? You did. Think this might need some new batt oh no! No. And I've also I've got batteries in my pocket. Have you? All those to , yeah well I told you to put in this morning. Those two batteries I told you put in your pocket in case the batteries went flat this morning. Mm. Did you clean your teeth this morning? Yes! I cleaned them with you remember? Oh yes, I've Have you enjoyed yourself at school? Yes thank you. Can't wait till ma erm to sleep in tomorrow. Ha ! I think it's this weekend that we go to the fire station. This Sunday. A visit around a fire station. I'll enjoy that! Mm. Yeah. There's a lot of people living in those new houses. They reckon there's three luxury detached bungalows left, I didn't think they were detached. They must be further down. Oh yes, right at the bottom look. Ah, da da da, da da . I didn't get out till half past one! And I had to go to Boots and get these batteries the erm what's it called? Smoke detector's batteries must be going down cos it's making a funny noise. Must be flat. When? Just save us coming out so I phoned your dad up and I said what batteries do you need? Do you want any chewing gum? Have you had it on all day? No. So have you been to ? While I've been to er while I've been shopping I haven't had it on at all. While you've been at work? Mm. While you've been at It's difficult. ? Na no. It's dif it's difficult when you're working because Cos you're walking around and Mm. you think it's going to fall off don't you? Yeah. So difficult out of this ruddy road in evening! Thank you! How many have you had? One. Why? Just wondered. Did you go out and play at lunchtime? Mm? No jobs then, for anybody? Oh I see! I went and tidied Mr 's bookshelf. Creep! Me? Mm. Well it was that or the cold. Did they ask you then? Or did you go and ask, did you say do you want any jobs doing? Mm. I started from Mrs says no thank you Emma, Miss , no thank you Emma Miss , no thank you Emma. And then I They know your name then do they? Mm. Even though you weren't in their class at school? Mm! Mm. I went round all the classes And Mr said? Yes? Tidy my bookshelf for me. So oo who stopped in with you then? No one. Oh! So you haven't actually played with anybody then? Well I did when I came out, I played with erm Jackie and Kelly. But, they had to do monitor today. And erm Joseph was going to do it today. Ah! I mean he's alright but he's rude to the little ones and after you have to take the plates away and scrape all the food off in the bins. Not very nice It's horrible! is it? No. But you didn't do it today anyway, so Yeah. And you know, I li I like sharing the dinners out, but It's just the afterwards. Yeah. Don't think I'd like that much. The mess clearing. Mm. All the slop and and scrape it all into this bucket with lots of it's like tray you know like that tray that you've got i next to your sink? Your who bought that there? The, it's like that. No ac in actual fact , I'll tell you what that is Mm. that's a salad bath. You wash your salad in there. It's not, it's not meant to have knife and forks in it. Oh. That, round, white plastic thing's Mm. for that. What, and you say put it in and You know the no th you know when I bought the drainer and the bowl? Mm. And there's a like a white plastic thing that a yo the knife and forks and are in there, now. Oh that? Mm. That round thing? Yes. You're supposed to put salad in that? No. Your salad goes in the other square thing that belongs to the sink. That's not meant to have knife and forks in. Now do you understand? I think so. Good! And it's like that apart from it hasn't got holes in bottom. Mm. And you scrape it all up. Mm. And it's, even worse with the pudding when it's got custard! You have to pour the custard on, and the they ask for more custard so you pour more custard on and you could just leave it. Adele's house! Please. Oh! Oh! Now stop here and you're going to have to cross the road. Alright. Go on. And I'll watch you. Half past five. Watch the I know. door. Bye bye! Okay. See you in a bit. I'll see if they're in first. Alright then. Bye bye! Bye! Got to go, yeah? There she is look! Oh yes. Can, can she come round to our house, because No! Because your dad's gotta ge ready to go out. But I want to watch Witches as well. And if I don't Alright. watch it now. Just going round to your house. Erm have you just got here? Mm yes. Let me move this car because they want to get in. What you doing? Coming round to my house? Or stopping there? Come to my house and want to watch Come on! Cos they want to get in. Shut the door please! Shut the door! Shut the door! And do it for . Yeah, right. I would prefer it if you did and because I'd be very pleased erm if she did. Mm. That's why I said to get ma ba , get you back then. Cos only I'd stop because of you. Why? Mm. So I can get of you. And get you! Disgusting ! Otherwise it's a slip switch so if you put it in, if I put it in my bag and it switches on and someone else so the the batteries will waste. Er. Turn it on then. No. Is it over? I've gotta get you on . Don't pull my belt or my badge! Actually I better take this up. Right! Hang on! Hang on! Hang on! Okay then. No, get off! Get off a minute. I wanna take my badge because otherwise if you pull it it'll rip my jeans. Ooh! Ah! It sounds like to get me downstairs! Right, only got me down cos I was tired, I told you. Ah! Well you found me! Ya ! You're my horsey! Horsey ! Ow! Lie down. Chuck a chuck a chuck chuck! Ee ee! Go on then. No cos I will help you. Oh well it's my turn on you now. Okay. Aha. Yes, I'll climb on top of you, I'm on top of you! And you're not allowed to kick! Ah! Horsey! Horsey! Horsey! Ya! Don't work with me. Doesn't it? Ee! No. What do you do? Just that? Ah! No cos that'll work. Tha all you can do is put your belly up and I'll go flying! Yeah! Go on then, put your belly up! Gung! Ah ah ah! Don't that hurts. Wom! Um! Tickle tickle! Shh! Adele get up! Cracking up! Emma! Get dressed now, there's a good girl. Ah! Come on, cos I've to go out. Emma! Emma! Hang on. Go on then please, now! Stop screaming! Er Go and get dressed! And put that Home and Away game a away Mm. please. Tick tick tick tick tick tick tick! And give me . No! No ! Go on then, go and get dressed. Ha! Ha! Delly welly! Yeah? Get that shifted! No way! Mum ! Hey! Now stop that! Go That's silly! Go and get go and get dressed! Thank you! Did you like your ride on the thing? Yes I did. Did you? I wish they'd have gone a bit faster. Is that how fast they goes? Mm. They don't go any faster than that. So are you sitting in the front or at the back? Erm, sit in the back. Right, I'll sit in the front then. Ooh! I'll lock these gates as well. I know! Ah ! Right are we all ready then? It's not shut. Oh! You see the thing is you can record and listen to yourself speaking at the same time? Did you lock the back door? Yes I did. Chris? Yes? Do you know that? Yeah. What, as it's recording it comes through here? Yeah. Is it on now? Yeah. What you on? Recording. Well wha well isn't somebody going to say anything other than me? I'm having a conversation with myself. What do you want me to say? Well discuss what we did this morning? What did you think about it then Emma? Why? Fire station. Fire station! A bit boring . Oh oh! Ha! That's one way . I like, the things tha the thing that I liked best was the ride in the fire brigade thingie. Fire,fire engine . Fire engine. The what? Fire brigade thingie! That's a fire engine, that thing. Ooh it's lovely warm sort of here. Sure you don't need it? Yes. She's conked out hasn't she? They're just changing places. At the Aha. traffic lights . Well that's different It's different anyway. Eh? Different! Silly isn't it? What was your views on the fire station? I enjoyed it! I did. It was smashing!really two of them, I'm glad that we all went. Are you warm now? Where are we flying from when we go to Lanzarote ? Birmingham. Birmingham ! Birmingham ! Are you feeling a lot better today, just there? You do don't you? Yeah. Good! Mm. How long has er Co-op's never been in erm It was there last time I went through there. Well it must have been in the evening cos it was shut. Yeah it was. I says to you it was shut. You told me , I remember now. how to be ta er the wheels on that fire engine it had got the registration , had you noticed? No. ? No. No. We'll see. Don't worry. I'll try and get the best for you babes. Well, we're having a nice proper dinner. Oh, see what . Not so cold, is it today? No. It's a bit cold travelling about to Well it's on that the station. stone floor you see. That didn't help. I must remember to tape that er wa Waller Birds is it? Yes, I want to see that . I taped it mainly for you. it says a mini-series. No. Be on twice I should imagine. It's what they mean by a mini- series. You mean it's, two episodes is it? Two episodes. Wha did you see it? No? I thought to myself when it was erm, advertised on television, I thought I'll tape that I bet I know well you'll be interested in that. No, I thought it was a bit boring at first. Slow. But it was good. Some I taped of that. More interesting when you've been there as well int it? We oh well yes! Realizing that. And you don't think about it. No you don't. What have you told him? Ah? to protect him! So they don't bother having scarecrows this time of year cos they don't see in don't put anything in the ground! But I thought it was just wo you know, just been left somewhere. Perhaps what we heard then int it? Oh ! Accident here. Always on this bit of road. It's only just happened. Yeah, I'd say, remember when we got out the car I said, I can hear that, dee da, dee da's! That erm,am er fire brigade, that was the station that we went to this morning, they are called fire and rescue. Did you, did you hear? I know. Did you tie them properly? Just tie them how I did it Emma. Two, tt, is that all? Each! Yeah. and he's through there. Ah? They shouldn't do it on er, visibility's not very good either is it? They got there didn't they? Yes. Somebody must have been overtaking . It's put the other way, I don't like that. It were that white car by the looks of i the way they're positioned in the road. Yeah. Because the other one was It's on the right side of the road On the right side of the road. are out look. That white car was overtaking wasn't he? Oh is it the one? Yeah. Can you imagine what speed they were going at? So we've got the, I mean it was concertinaed through the bonnet. I don't know about that anyway. It's just best driving at I can see it now. Oh we're back up again! The place is lovely int it! Ooh er! Ooh! Erm they said Radcliffe didn't they? Said hundred mile radius. They did say Radcliffe if you remember. Well keep an open. Hundred mile sa square mile radius she said. Not a square mile no, but Well it said here, it said Clifton and Radcliffe and er er, what did you say? Zouch Yeah. That's what she said. Which is up here. Yeah. So would he come up here at all? This was . Yeah, they've they've come to this road once Mm. This is . Er What was his name that bloke who you were mates with? Richard . Oh said Dick. Yeah, that's what they call him, Dick don't they? Yes. Take some back. How did you know his name was Richard ? Cos he told me. And I've remembered his name cos I kept thinking of Charles . You know who Charles is don't you? I don't think He's an actor. Oh! Where did you say that went? Where was I? Was I taking Emma's photograph? What's that? When I was on about my dad being at Yeah , when you went down and took Emma's photo. You didn't see him did you Dad? I did. How? When he was holding that boat. When you got your shoes. Yeah but did that man ? Yes. As well. From your front though. I didn't want to get in the way. Oh! See, so he said wouldn't like one taken, taken from Did he take it with you on it as well? No. I wasn't really bothered. Just glad I've got one taken fire engine. For Dennis. It was good of them for them all to come out and do all them drills. I didn't expect that did you? Probably have to do the them drills anyway. Yeah but it's They do that anyway Carol. wait for us to get there. Yeah. Everybody watched the other two, I ask him you know he went into the bus? Yeah. And some of us some of us Yes he was. I said to him, how often do you do these drills? He says, you're meant to drill on every watch. Every watch that comes on has to do a drill. Yeah, cos then I didn't actually meet him that's in charge of it all. You know like that dark haired er, man on, him that's the er Yeah , I know Ah? Yeah. Him that sort the er in, in the green Who was that other fella, was he the deputy someone or something? Yes. I know. Him that's up on er in the office on his own. Station officer. Station officer, that was it. Couldn't think of the word! I wondered why the never steamed up. Yeah. But what makes made me laugh so much was the fact that they cos their clothes they've got are always the biggest, mind you, it'd fit anybody, it's alright Yes. you got to think that way haven't you? Anyway, that's public. That's right he was the newest one. It is. And that's why that's why he was woke up ! I know. No. You got your lights on? Yeah. Yeah. Cos I've started my descent. Try to er Dad went to the Donnington Thistle Hotel! At th you know at the side of the airport where you said ooh and they've even got a swimming pool! It's ever so nice in there Emma! I went there, I had to go there this week for work. You know when you go in the car park you have to get a token to get out. Do you? So when I parked my car I said to them I forgot how much it was in there, twenty pounds in the hotel as you're not a guest they give them in reception. I said well it's alright cos I went to this er presentation there. What to stay? And she said yeah. Anyway, when I went to go I had to go to the desk give you a token, this token lifts the barrier up. I suppose for people who put the Put and cars in there, I mean cars in there ain't there? Yeah. Look at them ! Why? I should think they in case you wouldn't have been there would they? I don't know. I mean yesterday morning or every day. Mm. Plants, er the shrubs in there for . Yeah. What's the matter? Doesn't like the laces in those trainers. What's wrong with them? They're far too long ! What's wrong with them? I think ought to cut them out. Erm I know you brought it with you Chris, so it must Something is it in the back? Paper? Paper? It helps to read it. Did I put down Emma, in the back? No, it's there. It's alright. That's okay. It's alright. I've got it. Put it down and put my belt and it's er but er, load of fog coming down there. Pardon? The fog's coming down. Th it will be more so round here though because it's all open. Can you turn the heating down? Turn the heating down a bit? Ah. Only a minute ago you were cold! What's wrong? Yeah, I like it when my legs burn! It's boiling! I put it up cos you said you was cold. Are your feet nice and warm now? Yeah, just a little bit. We are now approaching East Midlands airport. Weather outside is rather cloudy. Rather. It's very low there. It's only six degrees centigrade. Minus one! Flipping heck! We must get the far better weather . Mm. No I don't think I'd ever want to go back to Tunisia again would you? I do But but you didn't like it much did you? No. Hey? No. But If I went back I'd go to er, I probably go to Sousse or somewhere like that. Pardon Emma? Didn't you like it in Tunisia? Er I felt a bit intimidating and Very much so. I don't like the people's attitude Emma. I know they can't help it, it's their way of living but Their culture. er, unfortunately er they made me feel very uncomfortable. And it's not just me that That's Donnington Thistle Emma. There. You didn't go in the pool though did you dad? No. they're all up today. Mm. Did you stop the night there? No! Ha! Tt! Need a nightie surely! Carry on mum. I don't know. That car's always here. Must be a person that works on the On the gates. gate. That's Joan innit? Thank you. Is it one where you have to keep it with you? No. You pay it when you get back out there. Er no , but one of them collected these ones. No, it's at ta Birmingham that is. I know there's one where you used to have to keep it. It's Watch it! There's a car coming! Over the bridge, what's this? She's got something stuck up her bo bottom. Yeah. She's got somebody stuck up her bottom. What's the matter? You know what. We Four add four and then Four add four equals eight. Two times four equals eight, right? Yeah, like that. And then two And two times four is eight. Erm I didn't write it like that then. Right. Share the total of fives Yeah, I done, yeah I done Er Five, five, five is fifteen. Five add five add five Erm is fifteen. and then erm . Right. Is fifteen. And then And sixes Sixes six si add six add six add six add six is thirty six. Right. Six times six is thirty I've done that one. sixes. That's it. Okay? Erm this. I'll leave that out. Leave that out. Add them up. Mm. That much closer can use those pictures. Take a look. Are they near the box? Yeah. Is that right? Four Four is twenty! So it's four so Four times five is Twenty! Four times five equal twenty. Er two times six equals twelve. Er four times three equal twelve. Er, two additions left. Alright. Those two add? So it's like one, two, one, two and one there and but put like erm seven add seven add seven is . Is twenty one. Yeah. Seven add seven add seven is twenty one One. And three times seven Right. is twenty one and do it that way, five and fives. Okay? Two addition questions. Hang on. Two ad yeah but you've got right two multiple and two addition equations. Not equations! You told us this! But i thi , like these, these are equations. So two addition equations er three times se seven plus seven plus seven is twenty one. Right? Oh! A so, but you can also go Yeah. Yeah add three. Three plus three plus three plus three plus three plus three is twenty one. Do it that way on. Do you follow Yeah. me? Yes I do. Right. Two multiplication Yeah. and two addition. Two addition. Right. So you, like, you . Yes, that's right. Then, it's like erm One. seven times three, and three times seven. And three times seven. That's right. And you do the same there. Same on the adds. And then, this we do like Right, she wants currency in two divisions in each, right? So it's one, two, three, four,fi That multiplication is a yeah well divisions, okay, so it's twenty one shared by say, if that's one, two, three, four, five, six int it? Oh I know what I've got! Six times three is eighteen or three times six is eighteen. I know what I've done. I've put the, I thought it was er okay. Six. And division is shared by. So you got to do eighteen shared by six is three and eighteen Have you got shared by three is six. So like, you go one, two, three, four, five, six six times you swap Three. six times three times three is eighteen is three times six. Six. Yeah, and and you got Six times three and three times six. A and division is eighteen shared by three is six, and eighteen shared by six is three! Yeah? Got it? I cannot read . Three sixes are eighteen! You got it? And you do the same there? Hang on! I haven't finished thirty three one yet. That's what I don't get. Why do multiplication equation for this similar line I don't a get how you do that? Is it, would you like us to put It's fours int it? It's fours No two, four, six, eight, ten, twelve Yeah. It That's twos. No, but it's going to fours look. It's going to fours. Alright. Going into fours. What would I put? Er one four is four, two fours are eight, and thre three fours is twelve. As this is been shared by lines int it? Yeah and it's on that one. You do it like that do you? Yeah, cos it's being shared by Oh! So it's, I would say that is er nine times four equals thirty six. And on that one is er, sixty three shared by nine six time sixty three divided by nine four. No! Sixty three divided by nine is six! Write six through it. Ten six innit? No, it's ten sixes. No, no wait a minute. Nines. What should nine times ten Emma? One nine is nine, two nines are eighteen, three nines are Twenty seven. Four nines are thirty six, five nines are forty five, six nines fifty four, seven nine are sixty three. Oh thank you. Right. Yeah, seven nines are sixty three. Hang on a minute! Six nines are seven nines are sixty three. Hang on a minute! Seven Seven nines are sixty three! Sixty three. Yeah. You work them out like that look. Yeah. Well seven nines, well ee er, it takes you so long Look one , one nine is nine Yeah. Two nines are eighteen. So that one there is sixes into si thirty six. I know! But I still don't get what you have to write! Well multiplication equation for this number line I would say is er I've already told you that. No, but I don't know what I have to, I have to write! Eight times four equals thirty six. Don't get it. Because it's one, two, three, four, five, six, seven eight, no sorry, nine times four is thirty six. Nine times four equals thirty six. Like this look! Write it out on a piece of paper and you'll and I'll write them down. No! You do it yourself! I've told you what to do. You do it like that. I don't get it though! I'll tell you if it's right. I'm just writing the answers out for you! I told you what to do. That's lazy! Int it? You crafty cow! If I give you a bit of paper and the lot, yeah well you know what to do and go to school and fill them in! Couldn't it ? No! Hey? Right. Your dinner's ready now. She says to me I've explained to her how to do it and she says yo I'll give you a bit of paper you just write down the answers ! I know. You know what she's gonna do go to school and put them down! Crafty little sod she is ! I'll only with them. Is he getting up? Yeah. I asked you to move this lot, and you didn't! I wish we were on ! Get there. Went I'm caught in the moment. I've got . Look mind baby Leigh! Just leave him a minute! There's no real trouble. I think our mm? Look just watch her, she's going to tell you how to record and you can see. Can't see yet. Ooh! Cor! I was in deep sleep! Right, triangle times nine over for thirty six. Thirty six. Shared by nine is have to work out what it is. Go on then. I don't know if they're right though. Where is it darling? I've got to put a film in. This? Yeah. Cor! Four nines are thirty six. There you are look. But you see there's enough! Oh yes I know. It's a as I say, it's all part of a times table. That's all you've got to remember. Well I am trying. Right four is forty, eighty six. And thirty six shared by nine is four. Emma. And I've asked you to do something and you've done neither! This is more important than anything! Move that! And move those bits in! It means that I have to do it! We can do it. And eat that breakfast before it gets cold! And I'm going to do my shoes on and with that cos this carpet's still damp. That'll do. I want some lipstick. Where's my I'm putting my lipstick on while I'm waiting for that to take. Where's he gone? You're alright for time aren't you? I suppose so. And I forgot to put my earrings on! It's ju it's melting my more than it is yours. What? I know. Expect you to sulk. It's just up there on top of this. Haven't got the key to go round there once so, I'll put that on and I've got a nightie. The tapes. It's on there. All you can ever hear, at home on weekends is television ! Turn that light out for me please? I'll just finish what I'm doing. I want you to brush your hair When and then go and find the library books. I'll move these. Are you going to brush your hair? I will do now . Oh aye. Can you take these bobble in please? Oh yeah. They'll only get lost in mine. Look, if you put it somewhere sensible like on the side of the mirror. You'll never guess what stupid thing she did today? She sat in Go on then front of me and she burnt, she's burnt her toe you know on that fire! That's her affair. All crusty! Silly little cat! On her tail. Did she? Yeah, she burnt it! On there! ? Yeah. Wha well what? You know like on the carpet there there is Er a letter from er that deaf society asking whether to join up . So that's er,. Well I shan't get it in there. Right here where it's gone Stop touching! black. Yes. Okay, that's her fault. Silly little cat! I know. That's all have got fifty two and a half here! Yeah. You checked them for me didn't you? Perhaps we'll end up paying out in it. Well there you, that stuff! Oh I see. Mm. Oh I'll Are you going to do my hair before you leave? Yes, one minute Emma! Well you can go up and ask them? I will do now, so . I used to love doing this. I know dear! I thought they might have a check before you go. Have you got to take anybody with you Chris? Like, you know Me. Except dad if he'll come. What's it for? Gay people. Oh God! Pardon. Gay people it is. Right! Come along, let's look at you then! Right, what I want you to do, I want you put it up like that Yes. with that in the clip and I want you to get it curly. Curly with that mousse. I can't help being curly. First of all you want it straight, then you want it curly! I know. You'll never know ! Turn round. Just got some sandwiches to do. I want to try and get out a bit earlier today. Mm. I'm sorry, but it's damp. Got mousse on it haven't you? Yeah. It won't go curly? It's so difficult to get the brush through without hurting I think. Sick of this cough! It's ? No. Do you think this'll hold? Yes! Which way round does it go? Tt. Is this mine? Stop tutting! Tt! Keep still. It doesn't look very nice straight held together like that. Doesn't it? If you have it curly like Right, go and get the mousse then. Makes a change to actually pick Oh I love them! tomatoes. Mm. I mean it's not fattening any of them. No. Dad can you get me some? Turn round to me. Turn round to me. Have you got your mouse? Have they? Yeah. What is it, mousse? Mousse. Mouse? The cat's alright this morning though. Yeah. I couldn't believe it! Like a different person. She's been flying round! She wasn't well was she? No. No you can tell because she sits there and She's back in the She just lies flat, when she's not well. Sprawled and going to sleep. She does that anyway! Yeah, but not in front of fire. No. She wants to observe when she's fit. Come here. Turn round. When she's not well it's She wants to slop back . Yeah. Is that what everybody else says? She's a slob. When she's not well Well she's laid down in front of that fire with her tummy warming through. Poser you! Who? What? Everywhere it moves. You alright? Mm! Go on then. Go and have a look. Do you want a hair grip? Couldn't get up this morning. Do you want Mm. a hair grip? You're not the only one. Yes please. Does that mean you're going back then? Yeah. It looks alright. It's not all that curly. Not how I want it! It won't get any curlier. Sorry! It looks bad! It doesn't, it looks per It does! It looks bad! Chris! on top! Listen to me! Listen! No! I don't like it! What's the matter with her hair? I don't like it! Go up in your bedroom Eh! Now listen! You know if you make me late Emma, I'm gonna smack your bottom! I'm sick of it every morning! Go and do your biscuits! Starting again! Oh bloody hell! But she always ! There's nothing the matter with your hair! Urgh ! Where's your lunch box Chris? It's left in the boot. Oh well I'll have to give you another one. You get it out if you want. No, I haven't got time. I I meant yesterday but you see, cos you gave me a bag yesterday and I've meant to bring it today, I forgot it. Cos I was busting to poo! Don't you remember? I know! Leave it on. We're finished. Right, I'll go and do my hair. You going to take these with you? Do you need the information available for that number on Wednesdays Yes I know dear. and we, you're not gonna have any Tuesday. No. Emma! What? Can you open your curtains,at the windows. Right. Well that's this week's int it? Beg your pardon? Beg your pardon? It's for reference, he's not put any reference on this side has he? Your keeping reference, should be on. I know. Tt. But it's not on. The only other one. Yeah. So got the other one? I don't know. I haven't got time to look. I'll have to have a look at it later. Don't ring up off this one. Ab No. And have you washed your face and cleaned your teeth? Yes I have. Right, the bathroom is all yours dear. Ah dear ! What a rush in the morning! Oh dear ! I'll put these on here and this, and I've described it fully. Oh dear! I can't believe it's Thursday again! Gone that quick! Don't you think so? No. You don't put everything in the bowl. Gonna put the chicken in there, still wrapped like in cold water. Want it to thaw out properly for tonight. And just pop that in the sink. Will you? Aye. Alright then! Give me a kiss then! Can't do it now really. I'm not asking you to. What's up? Tell her, tell her to come on now! Come on there! Getting my bag out. Right, what do you want for your dinner? Well, I've got to look. What do you suggest? I don't know. Tt. Well shall we do that form first? Yeah. Got a pen? Oh yeah! Come on then. Then we'll sort out the Here, sit here. Sit here! It's chocolate . He's got no knickers on! I'll get it off and sent Carol. Yes, that's right. We've got Get it out the way. a second class up there. Yeah I know there is. I'll post it tonight. Once it's on it's way it's done. Yeah, I've got to go out tonight. Again! How does it go? Yeah, you ought to watch it when you go hadn't you? Well I can try and work something comes, they all bash into me. Hey! Right you've got you ne , I won't touch anything cos you know I've been . That's, that's, that's that is And stop! flying in. It's great you know! Look! Mm. Look! That's yesterday's takings. Right. Tell me what to put then. Er put the other side first. This side first? Oh no that's No, it's that side first then. Over there, it says about reference. Please quote our reference whenever you contact us. I imagine that must be the reference there. Won't it? Yes. That one. One six? Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Yes, here. One six, stroke P F P F three nine five three nine five five eight, stroke nine one. stroke nine one. Aha. And today's date is the seventeen of the first, ninety two. That's alright. Right that's it for you, they did one six stroke P F three nine five five eight stroke nine one. Yes. Insured policy number. So it's H P P Baked beans! one six seven O four O eight nine. Name of insured is you. First. Do you have to put that? Mm. Oh! I that's in case you've got one then is it? It's nothing to do with work? Well no. Don't need that then. Just leave that. Say The addresses were as above. Just put as above? Yeah. Oh! Aha. When one do you reckon? a I don't know, what do you think? First notice it? Er When did they have it done? They've had it done about O October time cos I asked him just before we went away. Can't we put, cos it didn't come up straight away Chris. Yeah , I know. They had it done Se Yeah. in October did we? Yes. Before we went away where? To, Tunisia. Ah! Was it? Yeah. So can we put Well we didn't, we come back well yo we didn't come back till December! No, we went away we'd had before we went? Yes we did. And I mentioned it to you. Went on the seventeenth of November. Yeah. So, shall we put about the fifth er fifteenth? Don't really matter does it? Put Yeah. Well, the fifteenth of the eleventh or something like that. No? Er, fifteenth of the eleventh, ninety one? Here? Yeah. Fifteenth of the eleventh ninety one. For the public one. About sort of A double P and R L X in brackets. Cause of Aha. loss or damage for all the details to be given in a er, immediately . Er mind you, we had the house decorated. We had The house or Hang on. the house decorated. Mhm. It's enough? Had the house decorated, and all over the wall. Mm. Cor! Not like that! You wanna oh, well well not what no any You got that oh any! Not so bad in there. Right! Couple of walls black ash showing through. Shown through? S H I know! I'm just thinking. to be a it's H O . Yes. I know, but I wondered if that standed for that. Showing through the vinyl paper. That's it. Tha V I N Y L? Yeah. Er are there are any other persons interested in the property? Got nothing to do with that really. Yes. Yes. You've got to put that! Have you? Yes. Er,ta what do you put? Yes. Oh yes! Cos it's the building society. Right. Britannia. Britannia. B R I think this is how you spell Britannia. Just look, look. B R I T A double N, I A. I've missed the I out. B R I T A double N, I A. Alright? Do you want building Yeah. society there? You better put that, yeah. And the what did you say? So I cross No, no, just leave it! No! E G, you write it, yes, but after it's . G A G E. Right. State the interest of the insurer E G Ian ! I know. What a funny name. It is int it? Mortgage. Are there erm, insurances in force covering the property, say if it caught fire, etcetera? Any other insurances? Yeah. Not on that. Oh that's alright. Yeah, Britannia building card. Card? Guard? I can't do everything properly you know! Name and address of other insurers? Bit skew-whiff there though innit? Should have put yes there. To what? Where you put that. Where have I put Yes. Instead of saying yes, but then you put the name and address underneath. Here? Yeah. Does it matter? Put Well it there then. Making a good job of this! You're alright. What's that say on here? Building. Er just put our, this address there. Yes, that's what I thought. Head office. Head office. I'll put it underneath. House. At Leek Staffs. And just let me put the postcode in, what is it? Right? There. Say yes to that. Er, on here? Yes. Say yes to that. Alright? Mm. Any indadit additional information? There isn't. No. Just put down er, I've claimed. How much is it? The total. Just here? Yeah. One, two, three? Yeah. Yeah. That is it then? Flipping heck! You listen to that. I know. That's it int it? That's it. So who si you sign it. No you can sign it, right. Here you are! Take this off down the road. Do you want me to get you one? I'll get one from up there. So you can put that lot away. Give me a couple of second. Just write in here Carol, this bit, er one minute! There,so I'll save this. Which one look? This one. Mm. Er six rolls of paper. I think that would be it wouldn't it. Yep. Got the envelope there. Now I'll go and sort out what we want. Get this away. Just put it away ? Yes, definitely put it away. You done my envelope? No, because I didn't know what the Oh! address was you see Aye. didn't really want to get it wrong. Street. Right, lean on the paper again. Right. Where's the where's the claim form what's going in? Erm It has . So it, it reads, that, that and that. Don't bother putting trees and fruit trees. Oh no! Are you going to put that away now? I'll put it away when you done with that. Alright then. Cos I want something else Is that all on one line? I just put it underneath. That's what I thought. Whoops! It's a long address isn't it? Here we are. Sit down please. I'll sort this out. What? Oh! Have you called your work today? No. I just popped up, Terry was there. Oh! So it must be missing it bad then? Yeah, I'm taking them things, they always They always help you don't they? Yeah. It's fluid. I know. It's like mine. I'll be glad when that Ottoman comes so I can get rid of all that stuff. Chris? Yeah? What? I've got to out tonight, as I said. So what do you want I'll go and have a look see what we've got. You got a stamp love? Yes! There we are. Put it there, stick us on a stamp. Oh I bet it's it's we all have and trying to look , not worth have it done is it ? popular again. Yeah. I'll turn this off now and get on with the dinner. Okay, I was expecting twelve, but ten out of twelve's not bad, so I'll start. Good afternoon, welcome to a course which hopefully system that we have here. The course is divided into two parts, first of all a part that I shall be conducting, dealing with more professional use of the telephone: that's how you use the telephone, what you say, and how you use it in that way, how you answer the telephone. And then after that, there is a film called ‘Professional Telephone Behaviour’, and then Alex Ross will come and talk to you about how to use our system. That's all those wonderful little codes that are on the cards in front of you. You'll get a chance to try them out. So you'll all learn how to divert your phones, and camp on to other people's and all sorts of things like that, which are rather jolly, so you'll do that later on. First of all, I want us to think about how we actually use the telephone, how you talk on the telephone, what you say, and why it's important. Why do you think it might be important that we think about what we say and how we say it on the telephone? erm There is a gap here for you to respond! Hopefully, the person who you're speaking to Right, yes, anything else? To sound more professional. To sound more professional. Why should we want to sound more professional? you're working for. That's right, yes, every time you answer the telephone for an external call, when you pick up the telephone, you are representing Oxford University Press, it doesn't matter who you are, and it doesn't matter where you are, it doesn't matter whether you're in Eynsham, in Walton Street, in Corby, anywhere. When you pick up that telephone and answer it for an external caller, you've become Oxford University Press and it's important that we create the right impression for our customers, whoever they are. That we are courteous, efficient, and we are seen to be a caring organisation. I.e. we want to create the impression that we are good people to do business with, so our customers come back and buy more of our books, so that makes more money for the company, which means they can pay us more money. All round good idea! So that's the impression you want to do. You want to create a good impression every time you pick up the phone to answer it. What sort of things go into the impression we create on the telephone? Here is another gap. What you say, how you say it! That's right! What you say and how you say it. What sort of things will influence the person on the other end of the phone when you say how you say it, what sort of things will go into the impression you create on the telephone? Whether you're polite or not. Yes, politeness. Tone of voice. Tone of voice, yes. What else? Confidence. Confidence. Clearness. What other things? Think about phone-calls that you've received, from people that you haven't met. What sort of things about that phone call helped you make up your mind about the person at the other end of the phone. The introduction. Anything else? Okay, all of those things are important when you answer the telephone, and they're things to bear in mind. It's amazing how much we pick up just from listening to someone on the telephone, and of course when you can't see them, so you haven't got any visual clues as to what they might be like, what you hear becomes all important. Okay having said that, that all of those things are important when we answer the telephone, and the way in which we answer the telephone, what are the things that you find annoying on the telephone, what annoys you? Being left to hold on for ages and ages. Being left to hold on, what just sort of hanging there? Yes The little jingle and someone cuts you off and you can't get back Absolutely, yes. People being abrupt. People being abrupt? mhm People speaking too fast, so you can't . Speaking too fast, so you have to say, I'm sorry can you repeat that, which makes you feel like an idiot because you didn't pick it up first time, that's awful, yes I know, I know that one! People don't tell you who they are. Yes. That's particularly important in systems like ours, where you can divert your telephone, so even though you're certain that you dialled the right number, you could end up absolutely anywhere, because the number you dialled could be diverted somewhere completely different, so it's very important when you answer the telephone to say who you are. The other thing that's annoying about that is it then forces you into a completely useless small conversation such as: is that so-and-so? and they say ‘yes’, and you then feel like, they say ‘yes’, as much as to say ‘Well, why didn't you know that anyway’, and then you feel like saying, ‘Well why didn't you say so!’ and you start off on the wrong foot. Anything else? When they shout at you! When they shout at you. What because they're annoyed? No, when they speak too loud. When they speak too loud down the telephone. Yes, that's true, what so you have to hold the phone away from your ear, and then everybody else in the office can hear the conversation as well as you can. Yes. Any other things that you find annoying? Okay, there was a survey carried out by British Telecom, and they asked some of their customers what were the most frustrating things that can happen to you on the telephone, and this was the answer, and some of the things that you've come up with are here. Not getting a reply fast enough came top of the list, especially when you know there must be somebody there, so when there's a telephone just ringing and nobody answers it. ‘Encountering an incompetent telephonist, who puts you through to the wrong extension and/or cuts you off, and/or isn't sufficiently clued-up about who's who and where to reach them’. Now the other side of that was a plea which came from our switchboard supervisor, which I'll come onto in a moment, where she said people will often think that of her telephonist, but in actual fact, it's because they haven't got the right information from people at this end, so there is another side to that story. ‘Being left hanging on without explanation of what's happening’, that's your frustration. Not knowing who you're talking to and what authority they have to help you. That's people who don't tell you who they are when they answer the phone. ‘Being called at an inconvenient time by an insensitive caller who assumes that since you've answered the phone it must be convenient to talk’. erm The other side of that is that people who phone you up and don't say is it convenient to speak. A lot of people now will call you and say ‘Hello, this is so-and-so, do you have a moment?’ or ‘Is it convenient to speak?’. Now, I do agree with that, that if you phone up and somebody phones you and they just talk to you and then for about five minutes later, the person at the other end of the phone says, ‘I'm in a meeting’, and you just thought ‘Well, why on earth didn't you say that in the first place?’, so there is another side to that one. ‘Someone jumping to an erroneous conclusion about your needs before you've had a chance to explain yourself’. There's a very good example of that in the film you'll see, where somebody phones up, and doesn't quite know who they want to speak to, but they get through to a department, and they say, ‘Oh, I've left some money’, and the caller immediately, and the person who's received the call immediately says, ‘Ah, money!, you want the treasurers department, I'll put you through’, and before the chap's had a chance to say, ‘No, no, no, I really want to speak to you, they've gone, and they're back at the switchboard.’ Being forced to answer a series of closed questions that don't adequately allow you to express your real needs. Again, you'll see a good example of that, where closed questions are good in a situation if you want to get a direct answer to somebody who tends to waffle, but again, if you're asked closed questions and you want to give information, it is harder, it's easier if you ask somebody an open question and on the film, John Cleese comes up with the starters to an open question, which are the Who, What, Which, Why, Where, When questions. In ‘Someone ringing off, leaving things vague, and you uncertain about what will happen next’, that's where people haven't finished off the call, by summarizing what's happened, and what you've agreed to do as a result of receiving the call. And finally, one of the frustrations that came out was ‘Being greeted by an answering machine’, instead of a real person. Some people don't mind answering machines, I must say, I'm beginning to get used to them now, I think the problem is that it sort of wrong-foots you, so you get an answering machine, and think ‘Oh my God’, and you know that in about a few seconds time, when you hear that bleep, you've got to give a concise message which will be intelligible to the person when they replay it, so instead of coming out with sort of babble, you're forced into thinking what the essence of the message is that you want to leave. And I think that's probably why people find it frustrating. erm Somebody on this morning's course said that they quite like answering machines, they use them like note pads, and they ring up people they know have got an answering machine so they can just leave a message, they say it's quicker than writing a letter, and it's easier than talking to them for hours, you can just ring them up and leave a message on their answering machine like a sort of note pad, which I hadn't thought of, but I suppose it's rather good, isn't it! So those are the main frustrations on the phone. Now, a lot of those frustrations would be alleviated by the fact that our callers go through a switchboard, who will take out a lot of the frustrations by doing some detective work before the call actually gets to you. And as I said, I spoke to the supervisor, switchboard supervisor, Di Combes, when we were setting up the course, and asked her what sort of things she would like to put across at a course like this which would make the switchboard's job easier. And she came up with a list which are pleas from the switchboard supervisor. And there is a hand-out on this on the chairs at the back, if you'd like to help yourself to them before you go. And I'll just go through them. The switchboard is open now from 8.30 to 5.30. Outside of those times, there is a night-line which is on, so any calls that come into the press outside of those times will come through on a special number which will ring and anybody can pick up. And Alex will show you how to pick up a call, you simply just press a number, and you then pick up whatever call is there. Now that really does put you directly in the front-line when you're answering the phone, so that call could be for anybody, when you take up a night-line call. When the switchboard is fully staffed there are two operators plus a telex operator, who also operates the switchboard at peak times. And peak times are between 9 and 9.30 and 1 and 2.00. So if you avoid trying to muck the switchboard up if you could between 9 and 9.30 and 1 and 2.00. When out of the office at meetings or going on holidays, please divert your telephone. And that's something that Alex will show you how to do, if you haven't yet worked out how to divert your phone. Once you have diverted your telephone, please check that you have diverted to the correct number. We have had occasions where people have mis-dialled when they've put on their diversion, and it's gone to somewhere completely different, and the people at the other end cannot understand why they're getting phone calls for somebody who doesn't work in their office. There are two ways to check that you've diverted. One is to get somebody to call your number, and check it rings at the number you've diverted to, and the other is to call the switchboard and ask them, because on the switchboard, when they dial your number, up will come the number that it's been diverted to. So they can check, so please check that you've diverted your number by using one of those methods. At the moment the switchboard can only take basic messages, because otherwise it becomes too time-consuming. However, there is an attempt to set up a message desk, where if your phone, at the moment, switchboard will put calls through to you, if you don't answer by a certain number of rings, it will either divert to another number or come back to the switchboard. Eventually, when it comes back to the switchboard, they will know that you've not answered, and they can say ‘I'm sorry, there's nobody there, would you like to leave a message’, in which case, that call will then be diverted to a particular message desk, where they will just take a very brief message which will be passed onto you. That's not yet in operation, but we're hoping to set that up. Now, this might sound silly, but people do do it, when leaving your name for someone to call you back from outside the press, please leave them your full name, that's your surname as well as your first name, and your extension number. Apparently they have had people calling in saying, ‘please could I speak to Sue’, and that could be anybody, and then the switchboard has to go through the rigmarole of saying, ‘what's it all about, do you know where the person works, can you give me a bit more information’, and it takes up a lot more of their time, so please, if you're leaving a message for somebody to call you back, leave your full name and your extension number. Switchboard do like to see people. They do like visitors outside of peak time, so if you get an opportunity, do please go down there and introduce yourselves, so they have a face to put to the name. And they can talk to you and show you around, so you can have a look and see, at the way the calls come in and how they deal with them. If your whole departments going out for any reason, for a departmental meeting, if you're all out at a conference, or if there's some sort of briefing or something going on, please let the switchboard know which numbers will be unattended, and how long you'll be out for. That helps them then deal with a call as soon as it comes into the switchboard. They can say, ‘I'm sorry there's nobody on that number, but I know they'll be back after such-and-such a time’, which is better for all concerned. If there is to be a major publicity launch of some kind, or you're going to have, if you've got an advert in some magazine, journal, newspaper or whatever, and you're asking for people to call in, please let the switchboard know who to put the calls through to, and what it's likely to be about. That makes their job a lot easier, and also a lot quicker. So as I say, those pleas are all on a hand-out, which you could please take with you when you go. As I say, there is a film for you to have a look at, we'll have a look at the film now, it's a Video Arts Film called ‘Professional Telephone Behaviour’, and it deals with the correct way to handle calls, as with all Video Arts, there are some rather funny little stories about ways not to deal with calls. erm And I hope you'll enjoy it and also pick up the lessons. I'll go through it again once we've seen the film, and ask you to give me the main points that came out of the film. Let's go through the points that the film made. What were the points to professional telephone behaviour. What was the first one? The verbal handshake The verbal handshake. And what did that consist of? Introduction. Introduce yourself. And what else. Asking the person Yes, and then what? Once you've established who you are and who they are, what should you do then before you continue? Something that we linked in with the frustrations earlier. Asking Yes. Right, and what was the second thing? Being helpful. Yes, what does that come under. Getting the message. Right, and how are you going to be helpful? When you were getting the message, what did that consist of. Control of the situation. Controlling the call by, and how did you do that? Asking open questions. That's right, asking open questions. And than what. What do you do with messages? Write them down. Record and? Make the right noises. Pardon? Make the right noises. Yes, make the right noises. Right, record and repeat, so that you make sure you've got the right message. And then what did you do? Take action from the call. Yes, what did that come under? And how did you do that? How did you offer your help? Volunteering information. Yes, you volunteered information. And then what did you do? Tell them what you're going to do. That's right, say what you're going to do, and then you do it. Right, okay, so the three areas of professional telephone behaviour were, when you answer the phone you give a verbal handshake, by introducing yourself, finding out who is on the other end of the line, and asking them if it's convenient to talk. Getting the message, by controlling the call, through asking open questions, and also remembering to ask closed questions if you wanted to control the call, shutting up a chatterbox, as with Mrs Waffle, when she phoned up about her Gloria. And then, when you've got all the information, record the information, and repeat it, so you make sure you've got all the key parts of the message down. And finally, to offer help. To volunteer useful information, so that the caller doesn't have to go through asking you questions. You volunteer information and then tell them what you're going to do as a result of the call, and do it. Right. Those points you'll find again summed up in a hand-out which is at the back on the seats there. There is a hand-out on professional telephone behaviour, a hand-out on the pleas from the switchboard supervisor, and also a form, a course form, if you could take that with you fill it in and let me have it back sometime. Right, now Alex will take you through our wonderful system, and show you what it can do. Just leave the equipment, I'll clear it up later. Okay, fine. My name is Alex Ross, I work in Information Systems. You've probably heard of information systems already. Are you all new? Anybody not new? Oh good. You probably think it's going to be a bit of a skive this afternoon, but it certainly isn't. It's designed really to show you how to use the telephone system; how to get the best out of it, so you're not wasting your time, you know, working out what to do. I don't think, you'd better have cards in front of you. We only had six here this morning, and I wasn't expecting so many as thirteen. These are facility code cards, they are cards to show you each facilities codes to use. Now, can you each have a handset? If not, move around so you can. We've got what, six phones, we've got 2,4,6,8,10,12,13 people. So, it shouldn't be that difficult. We've got one on her own at the end there, so. Okay. Right, the system we have at the O U P, throughout the network, Corby and Eynsham, is a Plessey system. It's not B T, it used to be B T, erm until about 1984, when we decided that the maintenance that they gave us wasn't good enough, and got Plessey in. We think Plessey . We've also had more facilities to play around with. The handsets, there are the cream handsets and the grey handsets, there are no differences that are worth noting as far as performance-wise, but the grey handset has, I don't know if you've noticed, a mute button, okay, so that you can have a conversation, and press the mute button, and you cut off the person at the other end. You can't cut off a conversation merely by putting your hand over the handset, it doesn't work. I've tried it to my peril a couple of times, and it really does get quite embarrassing, so that's a difference, and of course on the grey handset, there's a pitch control underneath as well as a volume control, okay, so they're a bit more modern, but I don't like these actually, because you can't hug them as easily as the cream ones, they just don't sit on your shoulder. That's the grey one. Also on the handset you'll see, there's an R button, a hash button and a star button. You'll see why in a minute, erm these buttons are on the handset. Now, everybody knows how to get an outside line, don't they? Just nine first and you dial straight through, you don't have to wait for a secondary dialling tone do you? Does everybody know the difference between an internal and an external ring? How would you know if it was an internal call for you rather than an external. That's right, that's right. Shall we try that? Can you just ring 3472? I won't learn everybody's names, because there's so many of you. 3472, and that will of course be internal, alright? Now an external ring sounds like this. Okay? It's like the B T phone at home. Okay, so that's quite handy to know. erm Has anybody received a beep in the ear-piece, not knowing what it is? Did you work out what it was? I think it was probably a ring, that sort of like went on for about a minute or so, Oh, that's called a howler, that's a howler, if you leave your handset off the hook for more than a minute, 25 seconds, or is it 60 I can't remember, for a length of time you get the howler. It just basically says, put your handset back on the rocker. The beep in the earpiece is when you're on the phone, either to somebody within the press, or outside the press, and another call comes through for you from the switchboard, and you're engaged, obviously, and so they camp onto your extension number, and you receive a beep in the earpiece, now you can speak to these people if you key in R star 1. You can also get back to your previous caller by keying R star 1, and you can say ‘I'm sorry I'll speak to you later’ to whichever you like. Yes, so you can alternate between the two. That will become quite significant when I tell you about call forwarding. Now, within the press, each extension number has a class of service and a trunk access code. The class of service determines which facilities you can use, I wouldn't worry about that so much because the system is set up so that most people can use most facilities. Suffice it to say that Sir Roger's got 31 out of 31 and most people have 8 out of 31, as a trunk access, as a class of service code. erm The other side, apart from Class of Service, is the Trunk Access, and this is the same principle, erm Sir Roger would have 31 out of 31, so he would have a very high chance of accessing a trunk if he was dialling out. Whereas normally people would have, in the O U P, U K, which just happens to be 6 out of 31. So it gives you an idea of the range that's available in the system. Okay? Right, now I'll explain some of the facilities on the telephone system. One of the facilities is call forwarding, and that is available to every extension, regardless of the type of service, okay. And that's call forwarding. Right, does anybody know what call forwarding is? I'm not going to say does anybody not know because we're all new. Does anybody know what it is? When you want to pass it to somebody else in the press? If you're speaking to someone on the phone and you want to forward that phone call to somebody else? But that's a call transfer isn't it, we'll look at that in a second. Call forwarding. What do managers do to their secretaries phones for instance, they have their calls if they're not there. It's like a divert, but diverts I'd like to think of as separate from call forwarding, I'll explain why in a second. Call forwarding is completely different. Call forwarding I need to put on for you, you need to give me a ring on 4444, and ask me to change your call forward, obviously with the other person's erm consent. erm Let's take mine for example, there are several reasons why my handset won't be answered, erm but for now, let's just look at two. Which two situations would my handset not be answered? If you're not there. If I'm not there, if it's ringing. If it's engaged. Engaged, it's busy. My number is 4444, my boss's 4524, and I could forward to my boss. She has a forward elsewhere, when you think, you could break these two down even further. Please stop me if you don't understand, because it's quite a tricky one, in fact it's the most tricky bit. There are two other ways in which we could break down those two unanswered situations. How can you break it down even more? We've already talked about it. You're busy and what comes through? Another call. What kind of call? An outside call. Right, so we've got Busy with an internal call coming through, and you're busy and an external call comes through at the same time. So that's two there, and obviously this one's ringing with an internal and ringing with an external. It's only got 4 ways. Now, you might think, great, 4 ways, what'll we do, what are the parameters, well you can have anything you like that's logical. So on the form there in front of you, you see there are please delete anything which is inappropriate, so I just assume you want them all unless you say. Alright, in fact, my handset is just on ringing external, I don't want Hilary to be bothered with any internal calls of mine, I've got a call log if anyone calls me, I know they've called me so I can call them back anyway. So all I want to do is to forward my external calls which aren't being answered. That's the most important, and those go to Hilary only. Alright, can you see why the beep in the ear is so important, just a second ago? Beep in the ear is so important just a second ago, because if we had this on, busy on the phone, and the next caller comes through, because it was my phone, those calls would go through to Hilary, so I wouldn't get a beep in the ear would I? I wouldn't get the opportunity to find out who else was calling me at the same time. If you're really busy on the telephone it's very handy to have this off, on ‘no’, otherwise you won't know. Is that quite clear. Any questions? As I say, divert's completely different. That is if you like, in the background, I'll put it on for you, you can change it anytime you like and there's no problems, unfortunately you can't do it yourself, yet. Everybody knows how to call transfer. Has everybody got an extension? Not everybody who works in the press has a telephone to their disposal. Everybody's got one. Everybody knows how to transfer basically, R plus extension number. It's very easy isn't it. erm Let's do the call hold then. It's on the card again. I think we'll have two, since so many have turned up. Could we have 3414 calling 3485, and just hold the conversation, and 3472 calling 3476, and just hold the conversation. Okay? Now, what I'm going to do is show you the advantage of putting somebody on hold as opposed to trying to put your hand over the receiver. Okay, you can put people on hold with the handset down. Don't hang up yet. But I would like you two, forgive me for not saying your names, to put the other two on hold by keying R star 9. Now, do you hear a long beep and a short beep, a long beep and a short beep? That tone is your successful switching tone, you will get that with most of the facilities that you put on the system, just to let you know that it's worked alright. So now you can hang up, you can't, okay? You two can go out. So basically, you've put them on hold, you're going to have a private conversation, and the call is still held at your handsets. Right, you've got 75 seconds, after which your handsets will start to ring, with an external ring for some reason, but it's an external ring. So, I suppose one of them, right, we can make mature, so if you'd like to put your handset by the side of your phone, don't put it down, we'll let that one mature and prove that after 75 seconds we can't lose them, and with the other one, can we just prove that we can go back to the conversation any time we like. Pick up the phone, key in R star 1, and you should be back talking, but with the other one, we're just going to wait and see what happens after 75 seconds. Alright, thanks very much. Somebody's got a howler. Is that you? You shouldn't have a howler. It hasn't worked then. Shall we try it again quickly, and then leave it. R star 9, make sure you get the switching tone, no, no, no, well, if you like, yes. Alright, yes. So, you're putting her on hold, yes, so you can put your handset down. Right, if you can leave your handset at the side, you can see that it matures after 75 seconds, brilliant. erm Call parking, right. Okay, right, call parking. This is the most useful facility I have known on the system. It's very, very under-used, I use it a lot when I receive calls from engineers, elsewhere in the press, and I want to go back to my office but continue the same conversation. It only works if you realise that your own extension number is going to be vacant at the time, if somebody's using it then it won't work, alright, so if you try and transfer a call, then you must make sure that the extension number you're accessing is free. Let me show you how it works, basically. erm This is the central message call parking, call park 1 back to your office. Let's say you receive a call in your boss' office, on your boss' phone, it's just come through to the wrong one. But you want to be in your office to answer that, properly, yes? So you say to the person, you must say to them, I'm going to put you on call park, don't worry about it, don't go away, I won't be a minute or two. Here you put in R star 6, plus the extension number, and you'll get that successful switching tone, which hopefully all of you will have experienced before we go, the long beep and short beep, like that. So if you want to see if it's actually worked, alright? So you can't lose the call in other words. So you get long beep, short beep, long beep, short beep, that's the successful switching tone, you'll know it's worked, and you go trotting back to your office, you get 75 seconds again, it's like the hold, before it starts to ring, or you can access it by keying in what? R star 1, R star 1. So you can either R star 1, or 75 seconds, do you want to do that quickly? Right, can we have 3434 calling Anthea, so that's 3463. Right, Anthea's not in her office right now, she's in Eynsham, so it'll take all of 75 seconds to get there, so she'll make do with call parking it anyway. 3476, great, put your handset down, alright, you trundle there, get your coffee, get your , and erm, okay, we've got 75 seconds, we can either let it mature, or we can access, well I suggest we access, because 75 seconds is a long time. Are you speaking to? Hello, hello? That's right, well done. If it doesn't work, always try R star 1 again, it can't go wrong. Alright, so that's the ordinary call park. Alright, it's a bit boring. Call park 2, exactly the same code, different situation. How many times have you written messages for people, who've been engaged when you try and transfer a call to them? And you've gone trundling round, and you've stuck these silly little stickers on their things that always fall off. And then you get blamed for not passing on the message, when in fact you've done your best. It really is not very nice is it. What you can do instead is park the call very like the switchboard, park the call at the desired handset, so take my extension, 4444, I receive a call for Hilary, 4524, I don't know how, it just happens, or perhaps it was, you know, an easy mistake. What would I normally do, or anybody normally do, I can't see Hilary? Transfer it. Transfer it, yes that's right. So I try R 4524, what would it do? Engaged. You try and call park them, they , so you call park R star 6, 4524, then long beep, short beep, long beep, short beep. Now, here's the crucial bit, what happens after 75 seconds, if Hilary hasn't finished, which is quite likely, because she's on the phone a lot? Ringing. That's right, it will ring me back. Do you see that? So there is a drawback, in the sense that if you're flitting around here there and everywhere, as I am, I can't readily do that if I know it's engaged and it's on call park, and I go off elsewhere, the call comes back to my handset, there's nobody there, of course eventually, where would it go? Switchboard, wouldn't it, and that's not very good, because they'd be answering a call twice. Obviously, I'm just giving you the down-side, if you're going to be there in your office, and you know you're going to be there, you're not going to dash off, or if you are, you can hear your phone ringing, erm it's very, very handy, and in fact it's smoother, because the person phoning in gets to speak to the person they want to speak to, not half a day, half a week later, alright? And you don't have to write silly . We'll try that, though, shall we? Let's have somebody engaged. erm What about 3485, remember, off the hook. Alright? Now, we'll have Anthea, you can call somebody on 2409, okay, and ask to speak to Jo. Jo, Jo, you want to speak to Jo. Hello, may I speak to Jo please. Mary, you must try and transfer it, don't you, because you can't see that Jo's handset's off the hook, we'll assume that we know that, okay, we'll cheat, we'll try and call park it. Would you mind just holding on please? Yes, thank you. Okay, did you get the successful tone? You didn't? Right. Try and stop the howler, that's okay, if you just keep flicking the erm thing, to stop it howling, that's fine. How are you getting on? It's stopped working has it? No it hasn't Star 6 3485, there you go. Right, so you have got the successful switching tone. We've call parked you Anthea, by Jo's phone, so as long as you know that, you won't be too perturbed about the length of time, hopefully, so you put your handset down, and we can either wait 75 seconds, in which case what would happen. This'd start to ring. That's right, or, erm actually Jo, can you hear any beeps in your ear now? You should be able to, occasionally. It might take a bit longer than. I think actually, you have to be set up in a conversation first. Let's leave that for now. Let's assume that you've finished your conversation, alright. There is a difference between picking up your receiver and actually being connected. So, actually finish your conversation, put your handset down, and we'll show you what happens. Alright, so you can see what happens, somebody's engaged on the phone, and you call park the call to them, and you finish the conversation, and immediately it rings. So I've shown you the good points and the bad points of it, I think it's well worth using. May I ask you something? Yes! erm What happens if erm your boss isn't on the phone and their boss has transferred all their calls to the other phone, the other phone rings as well as the secretaries ring, so you pick it up on your phone, which is R star star 3, and then you want to get it through to the boss, but when you ring the number it comes through to the other phone. Course it does. How do you get it through to the boss? The only way to, if you've a diverted phone, right, erm we might as well talk about diverts now, since you ask about it. erm The only way to get through to a diverted phone is to call it through the number it's diverted to. mhm That's what I meant. Alright, so, if you're talking on the phone, of course you'd transfer it to the secretary phone, wouldn't you? Yes, which is in your office. And then use that one to call the boss, if it was really important. Yes, okay. Diverts. No-one's talking about call forwards, please don't confuse the two. Alright? As I said, mine's only on ringing with an external call, isn't it. So. Now, if I don't go to this phone, what would that look like, it wouldn't be just dialling, would it, she lied, I'm just trying to compare the two, because they are quite different. It would be everything, wouldn't it. There'd be nothing my extension number couldn't receive, unless you've got a very, very high class of service telephone that overrides diverts, you can't get through, it's impossible to get through. So in that case, I would get 4522, BE BI RE, in fact, busy, you can look at busy, it'll just assume anyway, yes? In fact these are irrelevant. It's irrelevant once you've got a divert. I wanted to do that to show you diverts completely overwrite what is in the semi-permanent background. You can ask me to put this on for you, change it however many times you like, that's not a problem. Diverts you do yourself, and take off yourself, and they completely overwrite anything that's written on there. Okay, yes, and the only way to get through to a diverted number is to call the number it's diverted to. Let's try that. It sounds a bit funny, doesn't it. 3485, can you put on a divert to 3472? It's on the card as well isn't it. Anyone you like really, but as long as we know which one it is. It's got a tone. Is it long tone, short tone, long tone, short tone? Oh yes. That's the successful switching tone. Now you know it's worked. Okay, now anybody apart from the one, who did you actually divert to by the way? Anthea right. Anybody apart from Anthea's phone try and get hold of 3485, and you just, you can't do it. It's pointless doing it isn't it. Alright? It just doesn't work. That's highlighting, I guess, one of the points Sue made, that it's very important when you answer the telephone in the O U P to say exactly who you are, or which department you work in, or something to do with your identity on the phone, because in the system, you could see that if Anthea now diverted her phone to 3434, you want to call 3485 and you'll get 3434. So you can't sound surprised at the line, you know, if somebody calls for Fred Bloggs and you haven't got a clue who he is, don't sound surprised, because it's probably this divert train. Alright? Now Anthea, you can get 3485, say you're fed up with the diverts, now take it off, which is what usually happens. Alright? Camp ons. Horrible term, probably made by engineering or something. There are two sorts of camp on, just like two sorts of call park. The first is quite boring, and the second is less boring. Why do we camp on? Why do we do it? Because they're engaged. Right, that is the most common sort of camp on, because say I call Hilary who is engaged, the codes on the card, which is the code for the camp on? R hash 1 that's right. So, 4444 and 4424, and I want to call her, but she's engaged. R hash 1, successful switching tone, replace my handset. 3434 can you call 3414, please. Sorry, I was going to say 34. Sorry. Don't worry. I forgot to ask you to just take the handset off. Can you call her again, no just leave it, that's fine, you're in effect engaged, that's right. Okay, so you've got the engaged everything. Now the interesting thing about this is, you don't actually put the facility on unless you've found out that the extension is engaged first, if you think about it there would be no point. So you can put R, as opposed to a call park or a hold or something. That's it. Alright, successful? Now, we're just waiting for 3414 to finish the conversation. Alright? And as soon as they've finished the conversation, don't leap to the phone, alright? I'll show you why, alright? Now you've got three calls. If you pick it up, you've got a chance to speak to them. If we did it again, we won't do it again, but if we did, and you got the ringing, and you ignored it, you've got about 9 seconds to ignore, it just goes away. Don't think that because it's actually ringing that it's somebody ringing, or whatever. Does that happen when you're say, your extension rings, and somebody rings and in fact nothing happens . We'll have to get rid of that noise! This room's going to be no longer, they're moving everything. It's part of the redevelopment. It's a bit of a shame really, because it's quite a nice room. erm Where was I? So when you, if someone camps on to you, is that what happens, if I take my desk, there's an unusual amount of ringing and nobody there when I actually pick it up. Someone's ringing when somebody's camped on to you and they then decide they don't want to call you. You would be totally unaffected by it, okay, now there is one way that you might think camp ons are quite strange, and that is, if you've got a camp on on, right, and somebody's engaged, but they're engaged for longer than 75 seconds, you get a ring back, but you don't get a successful ring back, you get a ring back of the same long, say 2 and a half seconds, it might ring engaged, okay, if the person's still engaged. Well, you might think that you have to re-input the camp on, but you don't, the camp on only cancels itself if you choose to ignore it or if it matures. Can I say something about camp ons? I had, not here, but at home, a very awful experience of somebody camped on to the electricity board, because the power was off, and I was trying to ring them up, and you can't get through to somebody who's camped on to them. Alright? Somebody else can't get through. So this person thought he was terribly towards the electricity board, and I needed to get through in an emergency, and you can't. Well, I don't know anything about star services, what B T call their own services. They are mirrored, erm they're not sort of based on these internal facilities. But they are quite similar. I've no idea how they work, because I've never come across them. Can you camp on to somebody who's camped on to somebody else? Certainly, yes, you can phone somebody whilst you're camping on to somebody else as well. What happens if you get two to three phone Well, you shouldn't. Alright? What if you camp on to somebody and then their phone becomes free, and this starts ringing, and by the time you've picked it up and answered it, they've made another outgoing call, so they're busy a second time? There is one way to avoid getting camp ons maturing on the telephone which is . erm You know, you might be very busy and you don't want people to call in, internally. So, you finish the conversation, and you just flick the handset, you flick the black button in other words, you don't fully put the handset down, so you flick the black button and you make another call and the camp on doesn't mature, it doesn't seem to mature because it doesn't seem to be long enough for the computer to recognise that the conversation has ended. Is that what you meant? No, what I meant, is if saying that if I camped onto that number over there 3414, and if that phone becomes free, this phone starts ringing and I might be doing something, so by the time I've picked it up to make that connection, suppose 3414 is then making another outgoing call, do I have to camp on yet again to 3414? Yes if it was erm, if it was ringing through, alright, and it's a two seconds ring that you get, okay, you can either get it because the party is engaged, still, alright, in which case it's not successful. So if it was, you wouldn't know that of course if you'd picked up the phone, would you? But, if it's ringing because it was successful, i.e. the camp on has matured, and you've chosen not to look at it, then yes you will have to re-input your camp on. If you don't actually pick up the handset and either get engaged, meaning that the other party's engaged, you won't find out. So the only logical answer is to put it on anyway, if you're worried, because you can't put two camp ons at the same time, it won't allow you to. Alright? Oh I see. Any probs? Right. The other kind of camp on is erm the ‘ring no reply’ camp on. It's exactly the same code, it works in a slightly different way. If you're desperately trying to speak to somebody and they're out of the office, I don't know, they're just not there, you can camp on to their handset even though you just get ringing. So it's not engaged, but you can still camp on to their handset, basically the computer, tell them when it's next used. Alright? Which is why it's a very good idea when you next go into your offices this afternoon, to rock the receiver, like this, because any camp ons put on the wrong extension on the ‘ring no reply’ camp on will be matured, on a first come first served basis, so that's how people get to talk to you. If, however, you go back into your office and completely ignore your handset then the camp on will be cancelled overnight. Alright? So we could try that, if 3473 rings 3476, and don't answer, please, alright? Okay, did you get the successful switching tone? Yes. Right, now we're aren't we, we're , because the next time that that handset is used, the black button in other words is dislodged, and lodged, by the way, it will send a signal to the computer saying ‘Right, it's your turn to carry out the camp on if you want to, again you've got the choice, you don't have to, nobody has to answer a camp on. Nobody has to answer a telephone, so, alright. So it could go on all day, in fact it wouldn't mature would it overnight, because the computer doesn't allow it. Let's assume that you've come back into your office from the training session, and you go up to your handset and you rock it. Alright, it's a lot of fun isn't it! The problem is trying to get people to go into their offices and rock their handsets. I never remember! Mind you, I'm lazy anyway, because I record I receive the calls from anyway, so it's not a problem. But it's very difficult to say to people, ‘Go back into your offices and rock your handset’, because it's the last thing on your mind, especially after a boring afternoon like this, all you want to do is get in there, do as little as possible and go home! Right, so, let's talk about diversion. We've talked about it a bit, didn't we, where is it?connection, how to check whether you've got the right diversion. How you do that, if you put a diversion on, of course we know it overwrites the call forwarding, how do you know you've got the right diversion to the right extension? This is very common, this is one of the common problems that Di says to me. She says, ‘How am I going to get round all these people phoning me up saying, ‘Why am I not getting calls, it's all your fault’, you know, all the rest of it’, when they haven't diverted their telephone to the right extension number. How do you check? Yes, that's right, a lot of people don't do that, and it's so simple isn't it. It's very, very easy. Remember to un-divert your phones as well, because you'll probably get fed up , or quite like the fact that you're not getting any calls. And the code is on the cards as well, it's hash hash 9 to un-divert. Alright? If you are in a pickle, don't worry about it, because you can always phone Di up on the switchboard, or me, but I'm usually not there. Di . So you can phone her and say, ‘I'm terribly sorry, you know, I don't know what I've done, done something silly, can you tell me, is this phone diverted to such and such’, or whatever. It tells you on the screen, alright, any of the phone calls from the switchboard. They're very, very helpful. They don't mind helping you out getting the diverts in the right position, because the last thing they want is to put the calls through to the wrong person. These system abbreviated numbers, anybody know how to use them? Hash 6? Yes. They're in the telephone book aren't they? They're published. We found that we went to go to the telephone system that there were a whole load of numbers not being used. It's criminal really. So what we're doing now is, and we'll do again this year, when we publish the telephone directory again, is to send out to divisions any numbers that they want saved on the system. Eynsham's got them as well, Eynsham's got their own system. Can you use our Oxford numbers? Yes. You can? Since we went D P N S S. Yes, Data Packet Networks , I mean it just means that we're talking as if we're one site and not three. erm So, we've got Eynsham using Oxford numbers, Oxford I don't think can use Eynsham numbers, I could be wrong there, never tried it, never tried Massachusetts or whatever it is. But there we are. These have six numbers and they're designed so that everybody in the press, regardless of trunk access can use the numbers described. Alright? So obviously managers, who've given some members of their staff trunk access 3, which is very low, which is Oxford, can say to their staff, ‘Right, phone New York, phone Florence, phone this, phone that, and get me a list of all these things’, and they can do it, because the system doesn't look for their code, doesn't look for their limiting trunks, erm trunk access code 40, everybody can use system abbreviated numbers, hash 6. We want more people to use them, from particular divisions, i.e. if you've got common numbers, you can't really say numbers to the handset adequately, the system has been proved to be , so it's a lot easier to have common numbers and publish them in the telephone directory, so look out for that when next the lists go round to update it, update the telephone directory. Put forward your suggestions, say, ‘Hey, I want this in, I want this, this'd be great’, instead of dialling all those figures, all you have to do is hash 6 and the number. Alright. Incidentally, any of these phones here has got absolutely no trunk access on it, it's got class of service 31, got no trunk access. To prove it, that obviously the trunk access is overridden, anybody can ring up hash 6 104 is New York isn't it? hash 6 104, somebody try it? I mean it didn't basically say, go away and don't do that did it? You can't speak to a computer. erm Night call pick up. erm I don't know if anybody's noticed, but before half past 8 in the morning and after half past 5 you get screaming night bells around the press, they're not the blue phones, they're the emergency phones, it's the little square sort of socket-like thing above most of the corridors, and that screaming away tells you that there's an outside caller ringing 56767. What we've done, is we've set up an answer phone to pick up these calls after 13 seconds, after 13 rings sorry, about 30 seconds, which is quite a long time. We've had to set it up like that, because sometimes people working late would like to pick up calls, expecting a call, or pick up calls on a different handset,. To pick up these calls, all you need do, when you hear these screaming bells, anybody can do it, it doesn't have to be within your area, okay. Any call coming in, call for Sci and Med could be answered by Arts and Reference, I mean it's 56767 numbers, that's all the criteria is. Pick up the handset, key in 8, you can't do this can you? You've got night service extensions. R star 3 and then 24778. Yes, does that happen quite often, because I've noticed people go home at about half past 4 at Eynsham. I don't know, there's someone there till half past 5, and the girl on the switchboard is there till quarter past 5. Oh is there? Oh, right. So is that quite adequate, or would you rather have night bells? I don't think you can have night bells actually, because the system is too small. I think it works quite well. Yes, because you've got 4 phones now haven't you on 2477, two downstairs and two up. Well, that's good if it's working well, it's working well, but here, if you're here, say for a late afternoon meeting or something, and you're wondering what these screaming bells are, they're the night bells, and you can pick them up by picking up your handset and pressing 8 and that is it, and you're through to the outside world. So it's best not to say, ‘Allo, Alex here!’, I've done it many times, and they're wondering who they're speaking to, is it the press, or is it some private number they've got instead. It's very important to try and answer, ‘Oxford University Press’, because otherwise, you know, it's not good form really. Hopefully, you've got the up-to-date telephone directory beside you and you can transfer it, and we all know how to transfer it. It's probably not a good idea to try and call park things late at night, because the movements of people are rather different after 5 o'clock, their handsets usually aren't manned. If I try what to say to them if you can't get through. If I can't get to the person they want I try and say to them, ‘Look, can you please ring back’, because if they left a message, that message would have been lying on my desk until the next morning, until I get round to actually phoning that person internally, saying this person rang. Now, that's okay, I would do that, but it's much better I think to say, ‘Look, I'm sorry they're not there would you like to ring back when the board is open’, because they won't realise you're not switchboard. There's nothing to tell them that you're not the switchboard. As long as you're cheerful, people will quite appreciate, especially if they're working quite closely with members of the press, they know the hours of the switchboard, and they know what goes on. Just because they're outside callers, it doesn't mean to say they don't know what hours . Right, erm I think that's it, really. Is there anything you think I haven't explained, please say now. What is the ‘Do not Disturb’, thing for? That is for Sir Rogers and people like that. I mean I tried it once, and it didn't go down too well, even though I was on lunch. I put a do not disturb on my phone, and Hilary came through, and said ‘What are you doing putting ‘do not disturb’ on your phone for?’, I said I was at lunch. ‘Oh well, fair enough’, it's not really a good idea. What happens to it then, does it just or what? No, it just rings engaged, I mean you can try it, you can try and get through, but it won't work. In fact, the switchboard can override it. There's only a couple on there that you can't use. One of them is, I don't have 31 trunk access codes on them, if you want to try them, I only have 6. erm Direct extension select, basically I was saying that only very, very top managers and stuff can override diverts, well this is the thing to use. There's no point in using it. It'll work here, but not around the press. Switchboard use it a lot again, to try and get to the bottom of, you know, calls that are going through to the wrong place and things like that. Save number dialled. I've had a lot of problems with that, so I basically say don't use it, whether you try or not is basically up to you. It might work for you, with a lot of people it doesn't, because there's a lot of R keying involved. Right. I won't say any more because a lot of it in the back of the telephone manual, on facilities, so it's all explained there. If you haven't got the telephone manual bit at the back which shows you all these facilities, then let me know and I'll send you one. It's not been updated, it's about 1983, it's quite outdated. But if you can forgive the printing bits and things like that, system admin and things like that then it's not too bad. erm Extension abbreviated dialling, don't use. It's a strict ‘no, no’, just don't use it, doesn't work properly. You'll upset a lot of people if you try. Because people who've been in the press for quite a long time were using this before we took over the telephone system. Little did we know that G P T didn't actually write the software properly, and what was happening was that people writing new numbers in were knocking out the old numbers, alright? So I won't say too much about that either. Everything else you can use. And the only thing you have to ask me about is the group pick up, which I haven't mentioned have I. Group pick up, which I'll just mention in a second, and call forwarding. I need to know about call forwarding, and any conditions you want changing there. Group pick up is very handy, if you're with a large bunch of people in a large office, you can get together and say, ‘Right, why don't we answer everybody's telephones if they're not there, let's not just leave them ringing’, Okay, so you get together and you ask me and say, ‘Right, this, this, this, this extension’, it could be up to 40 extensions, ‘We all want to be in the same group pick up’, so what happens is the phone rings, but another one rings. The first person can key in star star 3, the first one ringing will be answered. The next person to ring star star 3, the next phone ringing will be answered. The beauty of the system is, group pick up, is that you don't have to know the extension number of the phone ringing, obviously, star star 3, that's it. Right? Call pick up, as opposed to group pick up, call pick up, should be on there, is star 3 and the extension number, and as you can imagine, you have to know what the extension number is before you actually access the facility. You can't say, ‘Oh God, there's a phone over there ringing’, pick up your handset and go star 3, ‘Oh my God, what is it?, 4 something, that'll do.’ Because it won't work, you have to know the exact extension that's ringing. It works with any phone in the press, but it's quite limited. It's quite nice to know in an emergency, if there's a phone ringing, say in your boss' boss' office, or, you know, in a colleague's colleague's office, or something like that, that you want to answer, you don't want to let ring and ring and ring, and you know the extension number quite well, then use it. It'll work on any phone, not just your own. So that's the difference between group pick up and call pick up. Group pick up you'll need to ask me about, group pick up with call forwarding. Anything else? If you want to get through to the operator, or directory enquiries, is it necessary to go through the operator? No, directory enquiries is actually on hash 6, it's hash 6 192. Operator is slightly different, can't do it in other words. You can get international directory enquiries on hash 6 as well, that's in the book, and I think you can get the international operator. No you can't, because otherwise you'd be able to call through the operator. It's just Directory Enquiries, both national and international. If you want to speak to the operator, then, yes you must phone and ask them to get the operator for you. I don't know whether they ask you if you've got a reason or not, I don't know. Does anybody want to know about the cost of telephone calls? Who pays for it? No? Oh, alright then, I want to go home as well! Is it the same as normal prices, or is there a bit? Oh, the pricing is very similar, yes, it's not exactly the same because we don't have a meter policy here, that's B T. We've got an internal call log which works it out for us. But I was talking about internally. I S used to pay all the phone bills, and now we've got wise to it. Now we bill out the divisions, okay, and the divisions bills have to be quite accurate, and obviously we one or two extension numbers which are new. erm And basically the divisions pay for their phone bills. We still pay for the equipment. I S still pays for the installation and the equipment and, you know, the maintenance of the system as a whole. It's the calls, the calls are charged to the divisions, at the moment, I mean that's just stage one. They charge it by each phone or generally. No, by calls, by calls made on the phone. what calls are being made Oh, yes, oh, yes, I mean that's the purpose of the call log really, to split down to every extension number the calls made. It's not used very often, actually, it's only used for security purposes really. Do you record calls? No, no, we don't record calls no. Heavens no! We wouldn't get the chance to listen to it all. I wouldn't even know what the purpose would be for doing it, really. No, we don't overhear any conversations. I don't know what the engineers get up to mind you, but no, I don't think so. Have you got everything, have you got all your pieces of paper and everything? Well, thank you very much, this is quite historic really, the last training session in the John Hall room, it's rather sad! Just thinking what we'll start off with. I think I'll give you some homework that you could do for the week. So it'll be Right. based on, what we do today will be based on Okay. technical names of notes and intervals. Things like that. Don't, can't remember whether we actually any of the technical names of the of the scale before? No. How many notes are there in a scale? Eight. Right. So each one of those is going to have a a name of its own Yeah. with the first and last of course are gonna be called the same thing. And it's the tonic. You, you've probably heard that name before. Tonic. Because I think we've probably Yeah. talked about tonic chords and things like that. Tonic is the first degree of the scale. So in the key of C major C will be the tonic. Er now the next note second is called the supertonic. It's immediately above the tonic. And so would that be like D? That, that would be D. Or in the key of G it would be A. A. And so on. The mediant is the third degree of the scale Yeah. and it's called mediant because it lies exactly half way between the first note and the fifth note which is also a very important note in the scale, which we'll come to in a minute. So mediant is the third and it lies between, it's in the middle in other words. Subdominant again is the fourth. And I'll explain why in a moment. Fifth is the dominant. It's, it's a very important note. Dominant means that it's important doesn't it? Yeah. Er and then the submediant, because it lies halfway between the upper tonic the eighth note of the scale and the subdominant. So that, that's called the submediant. And then the mediant is called the mediant, the mediant because it lies halfway between the tonic and the dominant. So you've got the mediant between one and five. Submediant between Between eight and four. And that actually shows you slightly better. That little diagram. If C is the tonic, G is the dominant, so in the middle comes the mediant. And think of that as the upper tonic. And that would be F would be the fourth degree. So that becomes submediant. Right. And seventh note is the leading note because it's leading you up to the tonic again. Tonic, supertonic, mediant, subdominant. The lower dominant in other words and it's Yeah. called subdominant because it's, it's five notes below the upper tonic. So the dominant is five notes above the tonic and the subdominant is five notes below the tonic. Right. Yeah. If you like underneath the lower one. Mhm. That jus if, if you can keep the th the descriptions in your mind as well it just helps you to, to remember why each one is called that. Yeah. Okay and in fact I've given you part of your homework is to write out the technical names. With a very brief explanation of, of why. And you can use this little book for now. I think, I think we've got one of those You may have one of these. at home certainly. So you can use use that can't you? I'll put the page numbers so you'll be okay there. The other thing I'm going to talk about are intervals. I can't remember whether in grade it was three you did wasn't it? Yes you've had to do intervals in oral tests haven't you? So you know things like major second, major thirds. Erm perfect fourths and perfect fifths? Did you have to go as far as that? No. No. No we didn't. Right. Okay. Let's refer back to C major scale because it's the nice easy one. It's all white notes. So there's nothing to worry about as far as sharps or flats go. There's ei the, the eight notes of the C major scale. C to D is a second. There are two notes involved so we call it a second. And that's a major second because it comes in a major scale. So it's C to D, A major second. C to E C to E major third. Major third. Miss out fourth and fifth for a moment. Go t to A. C to A? Major sixth. And C to B? B major seventh. Is a seventh. And then we've got an octave. Right. The fourths and fifths aren't called major. They're called per perfect fourth, perfect fifth. Right? Yeah. The reason for that is because those two notes also come in the minor scale. Alright? I know the D does as well but the fourths and the fifths always remain perfect. Okay? So you say major second, major third, perfect fourth and fifth, major sixth, major seventh, and octave. It's actually called a perfect octave but they never worry about the perfect when you're talking about an octave. But it is actually called a perfect octave as well. Okay. Besides the major intervals you've got minor intervals. If you think about C minor scale. You'd have C D E flat F G F G A flat. A flat. The key signature actually has a B flat in it but because in a harmonic minor if you remember you raise that a semitone that's a B natural going to C. Now you still have a major second but you have a minor third which makes it minor scale doesn't it? Yeah. And a minor sixth. But you've still got the perfect fourth and fifth. You've still got the perfect fourth and the perfect fifth. Right. Now with all the oth other intervals you can also have minor seconds, minor sixths and minor sevenths. Which is why they're not called perfects. You can't have minor fourths and fifths. So fourths and fifths just remain perfects. Any idea what you do to make all of these other intervals in to a minor interval apart from those two? What happened to the third to make it a minor? Lowered a semitone. Right. So if you do the same thing with a D. Erm. You have C to D flat. D flat. That becomes a minor second. Right. There's the minor third with E flat. Fourths and fifths you don't have minors. You don't have. Right Now. That's the sixth. Minor sixth. The seventh to make it minor you would B flat. put a B flat in. And that gives you the other minor interval. So you've then got a minor second, a third, a sixth and a seventh. Right. Now all of the intervals also have what is called an augmented interval and a diminished interval. What do you think a diminished interval will do? To a minor interval. Erm What, what happens if you diminish something? You put it down. Right so it gets smaller. Yes. And if you augment something? It gets bigger. It gets bigger. Right. So. You've taken that down a semitone to to make it minor. To make it diminished you just take it down another semitone. Take it down another semitone. In fact you So wouldn't hear any difference between that So. Yes it's C C. and, but you must call it D double flat. Because it Oh right. must have, if it hasn't got another letter name then it's not a second is it? Yeah. So C to D double flat. It'll sound the same note. So you can only see it on paper. You can only, you, you wouldn't know that it you were hearing a C to a C, you wouldn't know you were actually hearing a diminished second would you? Because it's the same note . Right. What about Would they would they write it like that in the music? It would be written like that sometimes if It would. yo if they're changing key Yeah. they might put a double sharp or a double flat that but would be the same note. But that's just a way of changing key. It will actually show up though once you've What about the, what do you think a diminished third is going be? A diminished third will be a D. But you've gotta call it E something otherwise it's a second E double flat. isn't it? Yeah. Okay. So if you want it to beco to be a third you've still got to make it an E and call it a double flat. Now you can also have diminished intervals for the fifths and fourths. Fourths and fifths. Alright. So what do you think a diminished fourth will be from C? A diminished fourth would be diminished F double flat which would be played as an E flat. Now will it? Remember there's no minor interval so you can just go Oh yes. straight to an F flat. F flat. Yeah. It'll be, it'll be played as an E but of course it's actually actually an F flat. Okay? As you don't have to go through a minor interval just go one semitone lower and Yeah. it becomes diminished for the fourths. Same thing for a fifth. Yeah. It'd be a G flat. Just an ordinary G flat and that becomes a diminished fifth. Erm and A C to, to A. C to A would be A double flat which would on a keyboard be a G. G. Right. And what about a diminished seventh? Diminished seventh would be played as an A. And it would be called Be B double flat. a B double flat. That's it. Fine. That's, those are the diminished intervals. What about the augmented intervals? Go up a semitone. Right. so an augmented second Second will be? Do you have to go through the minor? No. Because you're getting No. bigger. Oh yeah. So it's going the other way. Right. So that would be a D sharp. A D sharp. a second. And a third will be? It'll be an E sharp. Which will of course just be played as an F. Yeah. Must be called an E sharp. Then we come to the fourth. That's the F sharp. And fifth? G sharp. And the sixth? A sharp. They're much easier this way round because you haven't got to go through the minor at all to reach them. What about a B? That'd be a B sharp. Which of course is played as C. Played as C. So again you wouldn't know you weren't playing an octave. But on paper you can see that you're intending it as a an augmented interval. Then of course you don't have to worry about the octave. You could actually have an augmented first. Which would be the C sharp. Mm. That's a bit silly. It's an interval you'd never see but I mean theoretically you could have that. The augmented intervals are quite easy because you're only going one semitone greater than what, than the note that appears in the major scale aren't you. But to get a diminished interval you've got to remember that if you can have a minor interval, you've got to go one semitone less than that minor interval. Right. Which is two whole semitones less than the major interval Yeah. isn't it? Aha. Except for the fourth and fifth which is easy cos that's just one semitone less. Mm. They're not really so complicated as perhaps they might look in the first place. If you just keep it clearly in your mind that you can have erm major intervals. Anything that appears in the major scale is a major interval or a perfect fourth and fifth. Okay. And then you're gonna have a minor interval from each of the major intervals. A diminished interval from any of the intervals. Yeah. And an augmented from any of the intervals as well. Right. So if you're in the key of F major. What's the key signature of F major? F major, it's a B flat. Nice easy one to start with. So there is the tonic. Let's call it by its proper name, tonic. Tonic. What would a perfect fourth be? Perfect fourth it's erm First of all letter names. It's, it's a C. That's a fifth. Remember you have Oh is it? Yeah. to include the first note. It's er it's er a B flat. So it's B flat. So a perfect fourth is that. Right. I'll I'll put the flat in front of the note so that you can see it. What about an augmented fifth? Augmented fifth would be a C sharp. Right. What about a diminished fifth? Diminished fifth would be a C flat, a B. That's right but don't forget it must be Yeah. called C flat. C flat. So that's a diminished one. Minor seventh? Minor seventh is a B flat. No a erm A. That's a fourth. Oh yeah. Well an A would be a third but B flat would be a fourth. B flat. Now you want a seventh remember. Oh you're going from the other It's erm E flat. E flat that's right. What about an augmented seventh? Augmented is erm E sharp. Which would be played as an F. E sharp. What about a let's have one more, A minor sixth? A minor sixth. That's erm D flat. A D flat. Right you just have to remember that whatever key you're in, you've got to remember the sharps or flats from that key. Cos those will be the major or perfect Yeah. intervals won't they? And then you've got to add or take away. Er if you er if you had to have an augmented fourth what would you do? Augmented fourth. It would put it up a semitone, so it would be a normal B. A normal B. If you had a key signature you would have to remember to make that a natural wouldn't you? Yeah. But if it's got no key signature you wouldn't need to bother to put anything in at all. Cos inevitably it would just be a a diminished fourth. Right. The other part of your homework I've given you to do, is to write down all of the intervals that you can possibly have. But based on the key of G. I gave them all to you based on the key of, of C Now. C. But if you write them all down first of all starting with C. And then going to D which would be the major second. And so on. I've put major second, minor second, diminished second, augmented second. And so on. And then the third and then the third and a fourth and a fifth and so on all the way through. Erm. If you get used to writing those out. And then the next time I'll probably give you some intervals and ask you what they are. I'll actually start writing out things for you to do as homework. And I've also got a book that we can use. I've got grade four and grade five which are quite useful. But I find it more useful actually to write out the things I want you to actually do. Er. And then I shall find out quite quickly what you don't understand. So what we've got to spend more time on. What you do understand so we won't bother to spend as much time on. Cos there are quite a lot of other things as well that we've gotta deal with. In fact we've got to deal with everything that comes in this particular book. And there's quite a lot of it. The other one of the, one of the things that people find very difficult, the learning all the words they expect you to know. The Italian terms. And the French terms now they've added. And some German ones. And there are pages of them. Quite a number of pages. What sort of things? Like erm poco a poco all, all those different speeds. Yes. Erm. Allegro, andante, everything. And they do actually now add, they only used to give you Italian terms, they've now add added quite a lot of the French ones and the German ones. I can never remember the German ones. French ones I don't have any trouble with. Most of the Italian ones I don't have any trouble with. But I can not remember the German ones. But I've never had to use them. You might find those easier. Do you do German at school? Yeah I do. I do French and German. You'll probably find you won't have quite as much trouble as I do with them . But I've never had to worry about them so I, I've never really got on and learnt them. That's, that's what it boils down to. And there are a lot of them. You know they're all things that you, they d expect you to know. And they do ask you questions on quite a lot of them. And there are pages of them to learn. Er. You've got to know quite a lot about rhythm. All the different time signatures that there are, which will include everything Two four three four Two four three four four four Yes. which is the crotchets. Then you've got erm six eight things like that, where it's quavers. Six eight you've got to be careful with because you're in to a different type of time. Erm And you go one one two three four five six. And those are comp what we call compound time. Yes. Erm. It's, it's the same time as three four You have t you have two types of time but you count the quavers rather than the crotchets. It's not quite like that actually. Six eight time is actually two time. But the beats are divided or shared out into three. Oh it's in triplets. Er they're not actually triplets no. Oh. They're, they're, they're six to tell you you have six quavers in a bar. It's true. But they're in two groups of three. Like that. And what it actually means if you see them like that it actually means that there are two beats in a bar and they're dotted beats Oh right. er as opposed to two beats in a bar that are not dotted. Just writ And that's just called two four. That's two time, two dotted beats in a bar. It's called compound time because they're not beats that can be divided into two. They go into three you see. If you have nine eight it's the same thing as saying three beats in a bar. Three beats in a bar. But they're three dotted crotchet beats, or nine quavers in a bar. And they're grouped in threes. The compound time is grouped in threes. The ordinary simple time grouped in twos or the beats can be divided into twos. What's divide actually means in twos is that you share it Mm. equally if you divide something. Erm you can also have six four time. What do you think six four time might mean? Six four. Erm it's Well there are gonna be six somethings Yeah. in the bar. It's Six what? What does the four stand for? It's crotchets. Six crotchets. Right. So. Let's write it down and you can see, six, there are six crotchets in a bar. Now remember if it's got six at the top it means it's in two time. So divide that bar into two and then make each one of those into a dotted beat. And what do you get? Erm You could make a dotted something out of that group of three notes. Mm. Yeah. Erm you have what is it? A dotted now that was a dotted those three notes were a dotted crotchet. Yeah. So three do so three crotchets will become one dotted? Minim. Minim. So six four time means two dotted minim beats in every bar. Right. So it's two time. What about nine eight or nine four? Nine four we'd better do hadn't we? Nine four. It's erm nine, it's nine for crotchets. nine crotchets Or three? Or three dotted minims. Dotted minims in a bar. These are the things people get very confused about. That there are two basic different types of time. Compound time. Simple time. These are the compound ones the six eights, nine eights, six fours, nine fours, twelve. You can have twelve as well. Twelve is four beats in a bar. You can also get it with twos can't you? So you'd have like four two which would be You could, yes you could do. minims. Do you get it with semibreves? No. It's unlikely. No. I suppose theoretically again you could have but it's, it's not a Yeah. not a usual one cos that would make a very Yeah. very long bar and Eight. er but you can definitely have you can have six sixteen if you wanted. Nine sixteen. Six sixteen would be what? Erm it would be Six what Semiquavers. Six semiquavers. In other words two dotted quavers Yeah. in a bar. What would be the equivalent simple time signature to that? The equivalent simple erm Remember six means Yeah. It's two two beats in a bar. So we know the top number's gotta be two. Two. It's two four. Erm Erm no. oh just two quavers in a bar. Two quavers. Which is two? Two eight. Eight. Instead of having two dotted quavers, two ordinary quavers would be eight. It's not a time signature you see very often but again you can, you could have it. Right. Or that one would be three four wouldn't it? And that one would be three two. Three minims in a bar. Three over two. We'll go into those in a lot more detail when, when the time comes. But if you can, if you can understand the difference between simple time and the compound time and er try not to muddle the fact that six eight does not mean that there are six quaver beats in a bar, but it means that there are two dotted beats, and two dotted crotchet beats in a bar and try and get that into your head as soon as you can you're gonna find it a lot easier. So many people find it very very difficult, to sort out the difference between simple times and compound times. If you could basically thr remember to that there are two beats, three beats in a bar, four beats in a bar, five beats in a bar, whatever. But even in compound time you still have two beats in a bar, three beats in a bar, four beats in a bar. But they're dotted beats. As opposed to simple time which is ordinary single beats. Erm you'll hav have plenty of opportunity of writing them down and erm you'll be given a lot of extracts of music like you probably were in that book Mm. and asked to put the time signature in. Of course they get more complicated don't they once you've got compound times, and, as well as simple times. And that one had bar lines, which is the same sort of thing. You've got to know what the time Yeah. signature means haven't you? A Wolves penalty miss lets in Stoke Derby dig in to hold off Palace and Peterborough put Birmingham on the spot. Hello, welcome to the Central Match Goals Extra. Coming up the best of the action from the Endsleigh Insurance League, we start at Molyneux it's Wolves and Stoke City, Phil the reporter. In each of the last four games there's been speculation that Lou Macari was taking charge of Stoke for the last time. If this was his swan song it started poorly. David Kelly sixth of the season put Wolves ahead. Macari's opposite number would have been pleased. Graham Turner's future has also been to the fore recently but for different reasons. And had Andy Thompson scored with a penalty after he'd been fouled by Simon Sturridge, Turner would have been even more comfortable. But it wasn't to be and within a minute Stoke were level. Paul Cook's poor pass let in Martin Carruthers. His shot was well saved but Mark Steen was present for his thirteenth goal of the season. In the second half Wolves had chances to win it. A neat move resulted in Kelly's volley, good to watch but off target. And Wolves should have had a second penalty after Regis had apparently set up Kelly but Sandford's challenge went unnoticed by Mr Harrison, Stoke escaped and Wolves were denied the chance to regain the lead. Derby County needed a win against Crystal Palace to put them right up with those early leaders. Palace though are not the easiest of opponents. Dennis has been watching the action. Five minutes gone and Tommy Johnson free in the Palace penalty box is confronted by a Nigel Martin. The ball went loose and John scored his first league goal for Derby. And then Eric Young casually idling towards the corner flag has a clearance against Simpson, Johnson the loose ball against the post. But with fourteen minutes gone Derby moved the ball slickly from Forsyth to Harts and on to Paul for a measured finish. Two nil and the completely in charge. But there must have been a Palace revolution at half time. The visitors lethargic in the first half were very energetic in the second. Wright's neat overhead put in the persistent Chris Armstrong who threaded the ball between Wassall and Taylor. With twenty five minutes into the half Wassall made a smother tackle as Armstrong charged towards the Derby box. The only question was yellow or red. The ref opted for red and Wassall made an early departure for the second time this season. But Derby kept up their hundred percent home record and added a third goal with thunderous free kick. Derby three, Crystal Palace one. We stay out east now for Peterborough United and Birmingham City who met at London Road. Keith Daniell has been watching the action there. Peterborough have been looking increasingly like first division fodder but today it was Birmingham who were left scrabbling around for crumbs and there weren't too many of them. Jason with a terrific run carrying the ball fifty yards and really there wasn't too much doubt about the penalty decision. It would've been a bit dodgy at Wellford Road let alone London Road. But it took a couple of goes to get the ball in the net. The ref said the first time the ball wasn't on the spot properly so the kick had to be retaken. No problem though for Tony he just hit it to the other side. In the second half Peterborough had a man sent off but it didn't affect the final score, Peterborough beating Birmingham one nil at London Road. Well Oxford United's match against Luton Town had the air of an early relegation battle as Tim now reports, it's not a good result for Oxford. Oxford have a problem. They do all the attacking but the other team do all the scoring. While United threw away a hatful of chances Luton had two shots on target in the first half and hit the jackpot with one of them as Kerry Hughes got them a goal. United huffed and puffed but could they find a way through? Could they get a goal? Same story in the second half. Beecham, Allan, Penny, Dyer, they could have all scored. None did, Oxford nil Luton one. And Notts County had won four of their five league matches at Meadow Lane this season but they were given an early shock by today's visitors Portsmouth. The last thing you need when you're at the bottom of the table is to concede an early free kick but today Notts did just that. Tony Dobson put Portsmouth ahead early on and it looked for a long time as though that was going to be the only goal of the game. But Richard Walker had other ideas, with just two minutes to go he coughed up. Notts have a terrific record at home under Mick Walker and they kept it going. At Meadow Lane today Notts County one, Portsmouth one. And no joy for West Brom in the northeast where a single goal separated those sides as Sunderland prepare to meet Aston Villa in the Coca Cola Cup. And er once again the Hereford defence has proved itself somewhat leaky, five three. Crewe with that er goal from Sean Smith stay top. Shh Doncaster got the quickest goal of the afternoon in the first minute and Walsall got the only goal with seven minutes left. Football live at two fifty tomorrow it's Leicester City and Nottingham Forest. Join us for that we'll see you there. Bye bye. Er okay. Firstly er what is the area covered by the police district? Well geographically it starts from the roundabout at the bottom of Road, where Road meets Boulevard. And then along Road, turn left onto Road, and go right past the city hospital, turn left onto Road, through to Lane, Road to the junction with the . Turn right to the roundabout. Then it covers the whole of Estate, Estate. If you go left along Road to the crossroads, near wh where the Flats. Er turn left onto Road, to the railway line, and it cuts back along the railway line er which eventually comes out on the ring road. And again continue along the ring road to the Lane roundabout. Turn right onto Lane, to the bottom near the pub, Turn right again on Road onto er Road. Then onto Road and then turn left onto Road. Along there to the Recreation Ground, turn left onto Street down to Boulevard, turn right along Boulevard, back to Road. And that is the geographical boundary. Yeah. Are these split into subdivisions? Yeah that is the or the Road police subdivision. That is further subdivided into beats what they call beats. Which is eight separate areas. Which comprise in name,,,,,,, and . Mhm. Er do you feel that the the area that is covered, there is enough er staff to cover that area? Yeah erm the amount of police necessary for each area is based on all sorts of statistics, and for the statis statistics that we have for this area, we have or the chief constable's decided that he'll allocate a hundred and two police officers to police this area, which we find adequate. There are times of course when we get very busy, there are times when we get slack. But overall the allocation is about correct. Er how did the national policing policy affect ? After nineteen eighty one, to the present day? Well as you know, in nineteen eighty one, there were there were troubles all over the country, which seemed to start from problems in Brixton. And that er went across to sort of, Moss Side in Manchester, Toxteth, Handsworth and eventually to . Er as a result of that, Lord Scarman was appointed by the the government to look into the problems. And to report on it. Er and one of his findings was that there was not really enough liaison between erm groups of people in the community. Er he found that there was a big a big rift between the police and certain groups. So he said. Look get into the community and find out what the problems are. So consequently after eighty one, or after the troubles in eighty one, erm there was an extra allocation of police officers in , and they were told to police mainly the area of the Flats Complex, which was perhaps where the troubles where in . Mm. Er what er what special problems did the the flats complex pres present to Geographically speaking again, if you put a lot of people in a small area, er you'll get problems because, square yard for square yard, you've go more people. The design of the flats was tailor-made for crime, if you look at it now. I'm sure that's wa wasn't in the planners minds of course. But if you look at the flats now, erm it was tailor-made for crime. Erm and with the housing people putting the type of people they put in there, it did lead to a lot of problems. Erm a lot of blues parties were held. Er these are sort of parties that start at midnightish and go on through the night. Erm attended predominantly by West Indian people. Erm and that caused a lot of noise. And that was probably the main complaint overall was the noise in the small hours. So people would phone up and complain that noise throughout the night was mainly concent er mainly down to the blues parties? We we we did get a lot of phone calls complaining about erm loud reggae type music from that area. Er a lot of calls. Mm. Well th Yeah part part of the problems was say Going back to what Sergeant said about er the people in the from the housing, being mixed. Er the impression I got when I talked to the locals who lived here was that it wasn't gonna be that mixed. There wasn't gonna be single parent families with three children, er living above an old age pensioner who'd been in there from the word go. Er that problem always raised and of course visitors and things like that, car parking, it all came to a head. You kn about that time. The er the special problems the complex presents at the moment, are very minimal compared to what er other police officers I've spoke to who've worked the flats in the past, have told me about. Er there was problems with dogs. Dog mess, dogs running wild. Er they weren't built for dogs, yet people brought dogs with them or adopted, let's say, dogs what came there. So they started running round. Er lads who were interested in motorbikes. You get a sixteen seventeen year old who'd interested in motorbike, he wants to take his motorbike to th where he lives. So therefore you got motorbikes going up the ramps, which weren't designed for that. Lot of complaints like that. Er litter was one that raised its head very much. Not just chip papers and er newspaper type litter what we normally see, it's if you're living on the top flat and you have a new settee, how what do you do with that settee? And unfortunately settees appeared at the bottom of the you know, just been pushed over the sides and appeared and then they were left. Er And what what sort of powers do they people have er when problems like that arise? Well the the powers, I mean we've got the powers of there is an offence of depositing litter. But does that stop the problem if if we report someone for depositing litter I E a settee, I mean they don't want to really deposit it there, is it quality of life that's forced them to do it. What we did do, is we contacted the D D T S. Or the the officers at the time did. And there there was a project done with those to get the rubbish moved, and any rubbish that was seen, was contacted. I mean er I've been told circumstances where there's been a pensioners who can't move very well. And they've got to get to the chutes to dispositer the rubbish. Well will they do it? Or does it get left outside, and then somebody comes along and kicks it, and then it's open and therefore the rubbish is all over. It were just that quality of life. And policemen don't like to see it. But what do they do? So they had to start contacting the er What's the terminology we use at the moment? The inter agency? Inter-agency liaison is it? Inter-agence liaison. The police instead of ignoring it, decided to try and amongst with other agencies, you know the cleaning service and that, to try and er do a project. And it worked. I think people . Yeah. Erm In the future, I can't see E the only one I can see is, What do they do with the flats when they empty. I cannot see the flats becoming empty on a Friday, and the bulldozers moving in on the Sunday or the Monday. I can see a period where the flats will just stand. And whether that will then attract children and damage. Or whether they'll be fenced off, I just don't know. Yeah. So you can the there might be a problem with say the flats being left empty, that trouble may may occur. Erm so people getting over the fences in in the flats while Mm. they're fenced off. They're being tinned up very securely. I've yet to hear of a report where somebody's empti Is that Have you heard of anywhere? They've emptied the flats. They are s very securely. The problem is I think it's the I mean there is a private security firm in there at the moment, perhaps they'll remain till eventually it's all done. But children are children aren't they. And er they are attracted to them type of building. Unfortunately it's right in the centre and it er does attract them. Yeah. Erm do you have liaison with local community groups at all? Er Yes. In our role as principal beat officers, er we do. More than the fully operational constables and sergeants do, yeah. W er I first li worked . Visit the neighbourhood centre at , and there I'm in contact with residents associations, Asian groups, er all types of groups, and if I'm invited to them I go. Er to sit at the meeting. If it's full attend them anyway. Er we also got the Asian community centre on Street, and we we go there and there's a cross exchange of er ideas. There's a community centre on near the Centre. It is a lot Could could you explain what a principal beat officer is? I'm sure sergeant will be able to.. Again, going back to the Scarman report in eighty one, the area is divided up into eight beats. And rather than have police officers coming on duty, and saying, Okay, you take this beat, you take that. They decided to appoint eight constables and give each area, one constable, or devote one constable to each area. And he would only ever work that area. And he generally worked it during the hours of daylight, when he could be seen and people could liaise with him. er I mean, hoe successful has it been? Well without sort of, saying because I work in that department, it's good, erm I sincerely believe that it is very good. I mean, twenty years ago when the volume of work wasn't so high as it now, then erm every police officer was doing that, but because time has marched on and problems have become more an more, erm we we tend to have left the traditional way of policing behind. And I'm sure you've seen where the chief constable says he wants more bobbies on the beat, well perhaps this is a way to a to achieving that. Mm. Erm The community does relate to one police officer. They know he's not gonna be there for for ever, I E you know, he'll want to move on or they perhaps will move on. But the fact that they see the same pl face See not everybody wants to talk to a policeman to report crime do they? A lot of them want to just talk, to feel secure that they've seen a policeman. Or just pass time of day. Cos that's what they remember from their childhood. It's perhaps fair to say as well that if if er er a member of the public knows that P C Smith or P C Jones is his local policeman, he would prefer to see P C Smith or P C Jones. And if he can't or doesn't then he will sometimes keep the problem to himself. Rather than report it to anybody. And I think the the local touch if you like of the principal beat officer, er shows itself on occasions like that. D d er do the people get to know police officers name? I mean is that sort of friendship built up or Oh yeah. relationship whatever Yeah bear i I mean both of us sitting here, we've been to social functions on this areas Yeah the the the amount of phone calls we get asking for P C , for P C , for P C , for P C , er for P C is quite incredible. People do know who their local policeman is. And they won't they won't be satisfied if the get somebody else, they'll say No. That's right. Yeah. The er Course we you know l l like at the naval centre, I'm in the handbook, along with the er other services to . So they do you know relate to that, Er I haven't got a magic wand. They know I haven't got a magic wand. Brut a lot of the time, they don't want to report that their child is riding without lights, but they accept that if you have a quiet word, he may not do it. Yeah it's enjoyable work. And it's not that enjoyable to put people in prison, it's not that enjoyable to put people in court. If you can see a result If I talk to John Smith and tell him that I know he keeps riding on the pavement at you know, with no lights, it sounds minor, but the old age pensioner who keeps nearly getting missed, it's very you know upsetting. And if he does and then I see him and that he isn't doing it any more, at least I've got job satisfaction in that he hasn't. A lot of the time, the fact that they know that you're doing it, stops them. Well the parents seem to appreciate that as well. That's how they were dealt with. Erm moving on a bit now, er er I mean, which crimes do you figure do you think figure most prominently around the fl in and around the flats? At the present time, there's very not that much crime at all. There is one perhaps two of what we call the blues parties, still running. But er compared to what there was. I say you know, we do talk to each other as police officers and talking to the lads who work the flats, from when they were busy to you know, now it's on the you know, I think what, there's about three hundred people is there? Or three hundred if that, left in the flats. It's not that many. Er there was a lot of thefts from cars. Because the cars are obviously parked in an area away from the er where the people lived. They were left on the car park, so people knew they were parked there for the night. There's a lot of thefts from cars. Theft of cars. Cars being abandoned there because of the chances of them being er found. Er damage, graffiti. Then because of the reputation the area got for the blues or for the so called red light area, you get people coming in from out of town, which then brought it's own problems with it. There was thefts from persons you know, people, three o'clock in the morning, making their way home from a blues were robbed. Erm there was drug dealing going on. Er the blues theirselves were a crime. If you think about it they're selling drink there without licences. You know that's all now going if you're just talking about the flats area. Mm. Well li what what happens, does the the the crime just vanish or does it move somewhere else, do do do do the problems move around? It Not so much move around, er some people, the age group you're talking about going to the blues, because don't just think that it's it is prominently West Indians or blacks, that go, but there's white people go as well. Which you know,the as they get older There seems to be an age group for blues. You don't see that many forty, fifty years olds at blues. And whether they tend to get older and move on, or like you say I totally agree, Have they took off somewhere else? You know perhaps in another area of Nottingham where they all tend to go now. Erm. I'm just wondering th I mean how how how do you regard the erm the the problems of prostitution and the related crimes to that in the area? I think by tradition every city had a red light district. And again looking back through history, Nottingham's red light district is . Why I don't know, whether it's because street lighting is less, or geographically lends itself. But yes if you live er in an area where prostitutes frequent,i it is a problem to you. Erm we get complaints from you know good people who get pestered by them. Men who get pestered by them. Erm we used to get complaints about kerb crawlers, but as you know, we had a a new law that was allegedly attributed to Nottingham, which made it an offence to, in certain circumstances to kerb crawl, looking for prostitutes. But erm generally,s what we say, keeping the lid on the problem. You won't stamp it out. Again by tradition, it's the oldest profession, it's always been with us, possibly always will. Erm some people put forward a very strong argument for legalizing it. Instead of saying, don't make it against the law, make it lawful. And you know create special premises for it. There's an argument for that. But at the moment it's not really a great problem, because the lads here go and see the prostitutes, report them for summons, and we do Well in my time here certainly,i it's been reduced considerably to what it was. I'm not connected with that. But it's certainly gone down a he er quite a bit. Noticeably. Erm I mean a are there rela what what what would you say are the related crimes to prostitution? Well I think you're moving on now to a sphere where perhaps C I D could you know help you on that. Erm you must have heard of the phrases of poncing, where somebody is operating a prostitute and if they don't get a required amount of money a week or er er an amount of money where they consider it sufficient, they'll probably go and beat them up or something like that. Then we do get odd cases of that, but again the m the majority of them are never reported. And it's kept you know, within that sort that sort of er area. It doesn't come to our notice much. Yeah I get I mean I get the impression if you're thinking about you know, the thefts from the people, I mean a lot of the time is the guy who's visiting the prostitute, doesn't report to us if his wallet's been stolen, for the simple fact he was visiting a prostitute. He thinks we'll look at it in a different light. Er so obviously there is a lot of undetected crime that we wouldn't know about. You know, the guy won't tell his wife or his girlfriend or whatever, that he's lost his wallet. You know, sooner than do that. I know that does happen. Do you get many complaints from women who've been bothered by blokes? Er who've just been walking along the road. Bearing in mind like er Sergeant told you before, the area that we cover, yeah the the girls or prostitute do stand Street. A lot of them also stand on the part that covered by Street And I know Street has got a tenant's action group against prostitutes. B because of that one complaint, you know . Er not so much on Street because they tend to stand near the flats. Entrances on the roads where the houses aren't. And the the women and that who live in that area, tend I've noticed to walk on the other side of the road anyway. I personally I've had yet to deal with one where the complaint. And I cover that part of er Street. Er it does happen. Right. Yeah I get you. Erm do you have cases where the where the girls or same faces keep popping up or do you do you feel that once they've been pulled in they it puts them off? Well we tend not to what you've just said, pull them in. At one time, the officers if they saw the girls soliciting, used to arrest them, bring them to a police station, they're finger print, photographed and dealt with. Now some of the girls And they're released you know, some of the girls were arrested what two or three times a night. Mm. So it was looked at tying up police time. And what was decided was We know what's known as report for summons. We know the girls, we check them out, whether they're wanted or not. We know the details and the w they're told the facts when we report it and then they're given a summons. To go to court. So there's been a a difference there. We're not pulling them in. Yeah I mean some very nice girls don't take that wrong I mean, they n they don't hit you on the head and start fighting every time you talk to them. But how can you stop them going back? Yeah. Erm I think the only deterrent is increased fines. Erm and again they work quite simply mathematically. If they can make a hundred pound a week, and they're only getting fined twenty, they ain't doing too bad. Yeah. Erm with wi with the big national AIDS campaign, do you have you er with the prostitution, have you had anything to do with if if you ever speak to them do you say, you know,yo Look there's AIDS, can you do something? You know. Yeah well, the girls theirselves made an approach. I mean there was er on the television and etcetera only the two weeks ago, we had two of the girls from here had made an approach about AIDS. Vice squad, or anti-vice should I say, are er involved in that. Mm. Erm Let's go on to the next question now about erm Just wondering what what on what cir under what circumstances, the police get involved in domestic disturbances on the flats? Well every domestic I go to, I look at as a potential murder. You have to. They normally come to the attention of the police by neighbours, ringing up, There's an argument or there's a lot of noise from next door. And we go. We obviously don't go, knock on the door and say, Mrs Brown next door is complaining about you. We knock on the door, and whoever comes we say, you know, We've had a complaint, is everything all right. If it's man and wife arguing, or man, female arguing, and they're the only two in this place, and I'm satisfied that it's gonna be quiet, and there's no injuries to each other and it's not gonna flare up, then that's a domestic, that you can be quite happy with. There's then the domestics where it's gonna keep going. Or has been going in the past, and violence obviously can result in serious injury or at least death. Cos the tension runs high. So it's normally brought to us either by, the neighbours ringing in or somebody passing by saying they can hear screaming. Or one of the persons, man or woman, ringing in saying, I've got trouble at me own, I want me clothes back. So there's different sorts of domestic. There is the power of breach of the peace. Or if they Has it been much of a problem on the flats? No they tended to s without s sounding wrong, tended to sort theirselves out. Th everybody Yeah there was noise and that but er when we got there it had normally quietened down. Perhaps going back again to the quality of life, was it a a release valve for the frustration of the places? I don't know. Erm erm go on to the next one then. Erm erm do you d do you think that drugs and alcohol are a major problem on the flats? Or were a major problem? Yeah. There was drugs dealing in the flats. I don't think anybody'll deny that. So therefore the problem was there. If that's what you're looking for, Yeah well that's obviously going with the flats going. There was the drugs problem where Trying to put me er social hat on, of people there on valium e and other drugs which were floating ground and kids were getting hold of these drugs from their parents. Leaving them around s you know quite a few drugs. So that was a problem. Er the alcohol? No. I don't think so except for the relation to domestics. If the if the old man had been out and spent the wages and on ale and then that resulting. I was just thinking about er when the pubs turn out and things like that. I mean,d did you get problems around that time of the evening ? No they tended to go home. It's very er It was very strange Pub fights and that never seem to appear here do they? No very strange. My old inspector who's now been and gone, came from Newark, and he said that there was far more trouble within the public houses in Newark, er than ever there was here and he came here, imagining the problem to be a lot worse. And I don't think he ever went to problem you know, a pub fight at all. They just don't seem to happen. Yeah and I say the obviously is in nigh on in the Mm. flats complex and No. You know, they're very I mean the w they way how it was put to me is to d same with all your questions, it was the er, was it the tail wagging the dog. Was ninety percent of the people there very law abiding and just got on with own lives, and ten percent that caused the problems it kept re kept sh showing its head because of these. I mean there's some palaces in them flats. You've been in obviously yourself and er others are not so nice. So But as far as the drink er No. Er about drugs and going back to the drugs, you mentioned about valium and problems Mm. like that. Erm what what about other drugs erm harder drugs. I mean have have they been found on the in the flats?is there is dealing does de dealing go on? W majority of the dealing in there was marijuana. I would wouldn't like to say about cocaine and heroine because obviously the drug squads could have deals in there what I'm not aware of. But er I've had one arrest in there and that was a girl. And that was for er marijuana. Which er which she stated was freely available in the flats. Erm well just go to the final question now I mean Erm when th now the flats are emptying out and they're coming down, erm and what what do you see is gonna be the problem? While they're standing e problems while they're standing empty and Mm. afterwards when they're they're demolished, what problems do you see? Well I I think the number the population will decrease obviously. Erm there was what six hundred and eighty flats in all. So if you multiply that by two, you're talking thirteen fourteen hundred, perhaps even more, so that amount of people are gonna go. But I don't think the method of policing will change, because again going back to eighty one and Scarman, and he said, Get in among them, liaise, talk. Er and this is exactly what we are doing, so I can't see the policy er of policing of changing at all. It's just that you know I mean if you want to talk numbers, there'll be less people Yeah. to police. I think a lot depends on what they build there. Mm. If they build traditional what they call traditional terrace type housing, I think the community in itself will er just adjust to that. If you then start talking of building supermarkets whatever, then we're obviously looking at thefts from supermarkets . I mean I just know what they're gonna build there, I don't think a lot anybody knows as yet. There's obviously policies being took with the community. Er I think a lot will depend. I mean w like I said early on, we're gonna get problems while they're empty. You're going to get people who want to sleep in there. You're gonna get kids who are missing from home who'll climb in there. That could be anywhere, that could or here. That's not down to the area. Er a lot depends on what they build there. If they build traditional houses, we're then talking about the same amount. Of people coming back, families. But I don't think the problems will come to traditional housing, what came to the flats, I E the walkways, the litter, the abuse, the facts of the parties. I think it'll be a fresh start for the area and a good start. About the changes that have been made to . Erm do yo do you know anything about those? I know they're going on to security entrance isn't it, where the er they're going to have their own key or own method of getting in on an intercom. Which apparently has worked quite well at er. . But 'll stay as it is. Mm. So you do you think that'll be an improvement for do you think? Well it's got to be for the people there theirselves hasn't it? Mm. You know. As long as they don't abuse it. I mean it's no good having a your own identity number and then telling everybody what it is, because that'll just never raised its head anyway that much did it? In the flats? No was the posh part of the flats if you like. Right then er well thank very much anyway. I think that's Well now James, what can we do for you ? Oh Not so bad. Not so bad. I feel a bit sad. I'm my daughter's taken me hol me away for a holiday. Erm Mhm. a holiday down in . And Mhm. my line's not due till the twenty sixth of July. That's alright. Twenty six of July it's due Doctor . Well no problem. So I'll leave it with my other daughter. She can't post it No no no. Se send it in John. Send it in? Aye just send it Twenty sixth of July it's due. Aye. You know that's a year off now you know. Yeah. Due on twenty six Twenty six of July, yes. July ninety three. Ah no no terrible worry about that Jim. No? No no no no no . Sometime you know they they Och aye it's not. I just send it in, there'll be no problem then. No problem, no no. The thirteenth of the seventh, ninety three. There we are. Right. You just send that, just send that in to But could you give me some Er can you give me some Zantac Doctor? Some Zantac? Give me a bottle because I during the holidays . Well you shouldn't you shouldn't need of that stuff down there. . Aye well that's Well I don't take you know Yeah. Just a wee break. Actually . She says . Well it's nice it's a nice part of the world. Yes it i somewhere it's nice Doctor, it is. But er Torquay's A bit hilly Aye Too hilly for me Not for us, not for us. No. No. Not for you. No. It's er and it's like it's not a nice place anyway. I think Paigns I've a feeling Paignton's far nicer. Paignton's far nicer. And Yes yes I heard that Doctor. Torquay used to used to be a lovely place. Everything was kept absolutely perfect. Aha. Palm trees and the Yes. the the railings were always painted and all the houses were beautifully kept and And now mm. Was it Has it? Aye. It's a shame. You know, I was there in nineteen nineteen fifty. Were you? And I I mean it was absolutely gorgeous. Everything, the railings you know, when they put when they painted the railings, the burned the old paint off, the new paint on . Ah yes yes yes yes yes. Now, old paint just straight on top Aye. It just it looks terrible. I may go through for a day you know. Aye Och. . It's not it's not worth it. It's not worth that Ah well. even. Ah well. can go through. Aye they can let them let them go let them go . There's a good ice cream shop. Oh I like ice cream. Oh I like ice cream. I'm I'm very partial to ice cream. Yes I I must say that. I like ice cream. Well thank you very much Doctor. Eh, well there's a good ice cream shop there. Away you go then. Away you go them Jimmy. And I'll . Aye I'll . Okay? Thank you then. Look after yourself. Right Jim. Bye bye . Cheerio now. Now then, you've given,gi us a loan of this photograph which shows, I think, your father, doesn't it? Yes that's my father in the middle. That's right. So he's the central one Yes in the with the with the apron? Yeah. Erm who are the two other people standing there? That's Mr Harry used to go up and help him. Lives up the road. He was a dairyman, only he used to keep just one or two cows and he used to help me with spare time. And this was my Uncle Jack here, father's brother. He used to help, he was our regular you see. And then, in the background, if you look out real you'll see there's a lady. Well I can, you see. Aunt Emily, she was there with him, yeah. So what did, what did Aunt Emily do in the shop? She used to, well do the tickets and housekeeping and all that sort of thing. Help, general help. And this is in Soham itself, isn't it? Yes, yes, yeah just up the road here. Next to that old house, you know, Ann, Ann she has the same name Ann erm come on yeah. There were some old aunts left her that and that's like a museum inside it. Yes and she's got all old antiques, yeah. Yes But Aunt Emmy I, you know, I know she's in, you, in daylight you can just see a, a shape of a person standing there, yes. And this man used to go up, do you know I've heard my father say he's come up three or four times a week and help him and when they slaughtered the things they used to have the slaughterhouse down the piste years ago, as I'm talking about sixty, sixty, seventy years ago, sixty years ago, where they used to slaughter the stuff, you see, down the piste and this was the Christmas show this was, all these hindquarters of beef. There was two bullocks, you see and four sheep and two pigs hung there, though there'd be more pigs inside the place, this was show. Then, what was you gonna say? When was the, when was the photograph taken? Do you know? This? They was taken before, I was five, across, we move, he moved here just across the, across the road, not far only just matter going over from one side to the other and I was five there, so now I'm sixty seven now and that before then, you see, before I was born. He wasn't married there, he was, he was a bachelor, well a single man, if you like. Oh yeah, that's right because Yeah. because after that, he and his Aunt Emily and the mother went down Yeah. and he Father bought a place he married used to, married and went across and hired hired the other shop across the road off Mr , Charles he was a chemist. And that's where he moved from here over the road and after then he used to have his own, see, he had a slaughterhouse built at the back, see, he done away with the slaughterhouse down the piste and he used to kill all his stuff there. And when he was alone sometimes and Mr Henry was a blacksmith, when he wanted to kill a bullock he used to come and help him to slaughter this bullock. He was only just a few yards up the blacksmith. They used to help each other. Now what else? Then we used to keep, after we got across the road, we used to keep two carts there and two ponies all the times, you see cos, What were their names ? till we eh? What were the names of ? Oh I couldn't tell you. I know one was called Tom, that was a grey one and the other one was a bay and they was about fifteen hands, that's what they stood. And er, see, my father, when they used to start the rounds, they used to start, go down the Fen on a Tuesday, er the man what worked for him over the road George worked for him there, a chap named George and my father used to go round Wicken, that's three miles away from here. Just do Wicken on a Tuesday you know, cut the meat as you go, not orders there and then on the Friday, George would go to Upware on a Friday and then on a Saturday we used to do the Fen round again, down Fen on the earth road at black, no concrete there just the black earth with ruts about that deep, some places, cos the Fen earth you li bulges out so and er my father used to go to Wicken Saturday afternoon. I used to go with him as a little boy. When that was like this I used to sit in the bottom of the cart cos that were rough, very rough trip. Then, I don't know how many years we had down the street, but we moved when I was about six years old up the street near the church. Well that, that was, if you, if you weren't born . I was born. I was born over the road. Oh. Yeah Charlie place. And your sister's ten years older than you so they must've been there ten years plus, mustn't they? What? Across . Oh yes, yes. you, you must've been there ten years plus. Yes yeah. But er up the shop, we've been up there about fifty five years, from the time we give up eight years ago, you see. That's eight years this June, the twenty second, when we give up butchering and er then we got, well we got motorized, you see we, father bought a van after he got up the street near the church. That was a van what he bought. We used to keep one cart then. And then the road, the road was made down, er down the Fen, you see, so you go Yeah. with a van. Yeah well they put a, during the war they laid the concrete road right a way from to Soham Fen, you see. That was during the war time, that was about nineteen forty one I should say, when they started doing the concrete roads. See well, you could er I still went with the horse and cart down there on a Saturday, take the meat, still the same I done that for a year or two. You see we only had the one van, you s cos the one van was wanted to go to Wicken on a Saturday again. Right, so you had the motorized van and the horse And the cart. and cart? That's right. We kept one pony then. Yeah, we used to keep two, you see, never So you and you used the horse and cart right Yes. up Oh yes. all the time with the Yes, yeah, when I used to yeah, when I come home, we was courting then, I used to, old lady Mrs every Saturday when I went down the Fen, I used to have to go into the bakers and get her two ounces of yeast. Why did you? Er well Why's that? take her yeast down so she made her own bread. She never got up the street, she, she, ain't, couldn't bike, he couldn't bike, so I used to take the yeast and carry on with my round right the way down Soham Fen, Low Barn, Metton Cottages, that's right in the middle of Fen, that used to, a farm used to belong to Mr er Sam then, you see, years ago and then when I used to come back, I used to have to call at Mrs and pick a loaf of bread up. That was my payment for taking and then I used to stop at Jessie's, you see, when I come home with the cart and leave the loaf of, loaf of bread then I used to go back, well, after tea and stop there for weekend, yeah. Well really the road opened up That I'd s about forty one. the road sort of made you have a van Yeah but, yeah but I didn't didn't it? have a van down there till No I used to take the cart Yes, because that was pony and cart. that was war time and, and there's the petrol, there was no, well a squeeze on petrol, you know, you'd perhaps had just enough petrol to do some jobs where you could use the horse and cart down the Down there. down the rough, rough Yeah. ways. See they ain't got the concrete roads down to put them down when they bought the farm off Sam years later. Which are now 's? That's 's now. Yeah, you've heard of 's haven't you? Yes, yes I have Yeah, well they had a farm there, you see. Now you tell me about Mr . Why did Doctor Doctor ? Yeah . Yes, why did you pick him up with the cart? Well, he, no Fen road then, you see, he ain't, couldn't get his car, used to leave his car up near Frank on the, on the road, hard road, you see. He'd walk down there Yes. before I got there, a long way, you see, he'd go down there in the morning and I us Visiting really. I used to come home, I used to go down there about, I used to start out away from the shop about er ten o'clock, half past ten, you see, in the morning and go down the Fen, call at then comes well I used to call on the first houses on the right the way down the Fen there I used to go down farm they used to call it, come back to and then on to you see. Then after I got half way along the I used to go down to that was another place where there was two more bungalows, you see, and then come out of there and go away to call on some more houses until I got to Miss the finish of the round. Then I used to wait there for the Doctor, stop there and he used to, I used to pick him up and he'd ride up the rough road till he got to his car. Actually he was doing Yeah. doing a round like you were Oh he was yeah he was visiting. Yeah. That was when doctoring was private. Yeah, oh yeah. You know, not under the scheme and No they visited people. Yeah. And every Monday morning I used to yoke the pony in the pig float and go to Wicken and fetch the pigs. Perhaps bring four or five pigs home from Wicken, every Monday. That didn't matter if that snowed, rained, you had to go. And these were the carcasses? Yes, yeah when we used to bring them home to be slaughtered on the Monday, you see. I used to go off about eight o'clock in the morning. I didn't take long, with the pony that's three miles, should do it in about twenty minutes, yeah for three miles this pony would, what we had then, yeah. I used to bring them home and then, well father and me used to slaughter them on the Monday, you see and perhaps a bullock on the Monday and every Wedn every Monday morning the men from the farm, cos he had a farm, you see, used to bring perhaps twenty bullocks up through the street and he used to pick one out to kill, every Monday. Then they used to take the others back and put them in the yard again. Yeah, that was every Monday, that was, yeah. See there weren't no lorries to get them about we used to have to drive. This was during, this was before and during the war? Yes oh yes and er he used to buy some bullocks from Mr Ro Mr La from Upware. Him and Mr he was another butcher, he was a wholesaler, and he used to perhaps buy twenty or thirty between them and we used to drive them home from Upware and split them. You know where wa where the garages up here? Yes. We used to split them up and his men take his that way and th we used to bring ours this way, yeah. You you seem to have done a lot of work with other tradesmen and people around the area. Oh yeah, well it was people he knew, you see, yeah. And this Mr you see, he used to have several, in the course of twelve months, they used to have several bullocks cos he used to keep perhaps, well up to eighty to a hundred bullocks a year for fat, yeah. Well then that all finished That all finished when the lorries, when the lorries come about. The lorries used to fetch them then. Eden market, Cambridge market. Eden market and Cambridge then, that changed. Bury market. Yeah, we used to have, yeah we used to have bullocks from Bury. He used to go on a Wednesday my father did, yeah. Well that were the meeting place for all of them, all the different butchers. Have a little drop of Scotch each, you know, in the pub and chat That was the general thing. But then in the war, in between in the war time You'd better come in here. aye, in between in the war time, you picked your meat up from the depot Oh yeah. at at Yeah. at er Fordham, yeah Fordham, where it's allocated out to in the war Yeah, in the war time. I used to be one of the allocators over there as well Yes. Yeah, we used to have, perhaps, three lots come in a week. One on Monday, Wednesday and on a Friday. What was it, one and sevenpence worth each? Oh it weren't so much, one and One sixpence. one and six That's what Yes. the ration was. I know it varied from one and four up to Yeah. to one and seven during the during the war time. Yeah. Cos we were, you know, well hard up for food at, well everybody was really, weren't they? Yeah. During the war at some Yeah. at some Oh yeah. some part, parts of the war time. Yes. What was the weekly allocation for meat in Soham? What here? Yes, here. In, what just for us? For the people who were buying meat from you. Oh about That's what I said, that was one and four Oh about one and six one and six to one paying, and seven. This is for the week? They used to have, roughly yeah yeah. And they could choose what they wanted from that? There was on yeah there was only small quantity though, during the war, you know. What sort of meat were you selling then? Well though some of it was coming from Argentine, that used to be boneless Argentine beef. Some of it was Australian, some, and then you had the English, you see, as well, but they was all allocated out to so much you a week, how many books you had, how many customers you'd got. And, and lamb,th we always used to say they were greyhounds. Yeah there was one Yeah. Didn't we? One time we had We always used to say we had a real glut of lambs, didn't we? Yeah and you just said they were greyhounds. Yeah. They were that shape. Why, why did you? Because of the shape, right. Yeah they were so small and narrow. They were lambs alright, but we used to call them greyhounds. Greyhounds. And what other kinds of meat did you sell? Oh well you were During the war. allocated corned beef You had so much corned per, per beef a week. per book. Yeah. I think corned beef was about Quarter wasn't it? quarter something like that Yes per person. What about erm er pigs and things like that? Well you was okay the pigs, pigs used to come over as well, you see and the la English lamb, if there was any, and the English beef, you see, and there was so many cows killed then as well . They used to call that B beef, that was a lower grade. That was marked with a B in the ribs and right. if you, you was all clawing to get one of them cos you'd make a bit more of it. Right You'd got a bit more margin, you see. Well, yes Hadn't you, then? Where the best beef was a little more money, you see, that was priced, two different prices That was there. very hard wasn't it, to make it go, to stretch it, wasn't it? Well yeah sometimes, you see, the bull was killed as well, you'd perhaps get a quarter of bull beef you'd gotta shift. You know that's I tough. I remember once I roasted our piece Yeah. I roasted it Yeah. and we couldn't eat it on the Sunday and No so I, I turned round Could not? Why No. could you not eat it? That was bull beef. Bull beef Oh right. our second class beef, you see. Then I, I put it in a saucepan and I stewed it the next Yeah. day. Yes. War time. Yeah. But still, after that we, I mean Well we picked up after the war a bit. It picked up yes. Couple of years after the war it got sort er bit more freer, you see. Then er on a Saturdays our slaughterhouse was, our slaughterhouse was still open up the street then and we used to perhaps kill twelve, fourteen pigs for private people, but they had to give their ration up, six months' or twelve months' ration up to have these pigs. They perhaps had to give two books up. Yes I see. They perhaps kill a pig, you know, roughly this size or, we have killed them up to thirty four stone, yeah, each. We used to do that Saturdays, then Mondays I used to, well we used to have the clients come. I used to cut them all up and they used to leave me the legs, you know, the hams and the backs and they used to have a few joints off and take home and then the rest I used to lay it, put it into bacon down the cellar. Used to go down, well I used to be down every night, rubbing the salt in this, to make the bacon and I had a smokehouse down the yard where I used to smoke the bacon. I used to have it changed, every Monday I used to empty the smokehouse, put that in the slaughterhouse to dry and then put a fresh lot in the smokehouse and start her off again with oak sawdust. That's what you use for that, to make the bacon brown, you know, yeah. I used to do that every Monday, yeah. Can you just go back to the picture for a minute? Yeah. Erm can you tell me the, the weights of the different carcasses . That's right. These? What there? Yes. That, that hindquarters would weigh about three hundred pound, yeah, that's large, you see, yeah. Mm that's very heavy, isn't it? yes. And those sheep, these, especially these two sheep, they'd weigh about ninety pound each. They'd weigh just double what they are today, more than double. Yeah, they're thirty five. They're about thirty five pound the sheep are today where these are over nineties, yeah. And the pigs, those pigs would weigh roughly about eleven score yeah. They'd weigh about erm twelve, thirteen stone to put it in weight, the pigs would, yeah. And the bullocks? The bullocks, well I suppose bullocks like this weigh about seventeen, eighteen hundred weight alive, when they was on their feet, you see, yeah. Your father looks very smart there shirt. Oh he was ever so clean. Always, we could never keep a kettle of hot water in the house. Why was that? Well he was always washing his hands. Really? Yeah Every, every hour or And mother used so? when mother used to have a servant you see, she'd put the kettle on for herself. Well he'd come in from the shop, he'd have that kettle of hot water to wash his hands. Then when the girl wanted it she, damn me, she said this here's empty again yeah. He was a rare man. He was always, weren't he Ma? Yes. Always washing his hands. I, I was, I was just the same. I was as bad as him when I started up in the butchering. Very clean. Yeah very clean man he was, ever so clean. So was Uncle Jack, so was this man, Mr . Yes I no yes I noticed they're all wearing shirts and ties . Mr Harry oh yes yeah they were all smart. They used to wear a lot of the collars with a, with a wing on the hard collar, you know, they used to wear a hard collar then. Wing collar. That Wing collars. that Mr is the originator of Palms, the dairy People up the road here dairying Oh yeah. today Yeah today. today. Yeah. My granddad was the originator of the fa butchers family. Yeah. Erm yes. Well then er on, after the war then you er er Ernie came and That well that was after the slaughterhouse, all the controls come off. Yes then, then Then another chap came he used to slaughter and help us, you know, general work er and Full-time slaughterman. We used to perhaps, well we used to, then when that started Mr got a slaughterhouse, you see, down , we used to kill his stuff as well up, up in our slaughterhouse and Ernie used to do it, well he used to do the slaughtering and make the sausages Yes. and dripping and lard and make that up, all that sort of job. There was always plenty for him to do. Mm so how many Yeah all week so how many men were working for your father did you say? We had, well when we got, when, as we got older us younger ones our business got larger. That grew with us, you know. We used to kill three bullocks a week and about nine sheep, nine pigs. When was this? Well, I'm going back, well we was doing that when we left off eight, nine, that'd be nine years this June. We was killing three bullocks a week then, yeah. And during the war? How many were you ki Oh we Oh no nothing Well nothing, you know they always used to come from, from from from the centre allocated from the ce there was, there was slaughterhouses at different places, you see, and all these bullocks went to the market and they was graded with the government people, you see, and perhaps, twenty or thirty bullocks'd go to Ely and about forty go to Cambridge slaughterhouse. That sort of thing and the pigs the same, during the war, they all had to go in cen cen centralized slaughterhouses then. And and you got meat equal to the amount of ration books that Yeah. you had Yeah. and with very little to spare, you had to scheme sometimes, didn't you? Oh yes yeah, yeah Mm to, you know stretch it out. Well you see, you'll have to switch it off what I took back! Yeah. Right. You know . You used to bike round, you see. Used to take, used to go round, take the first lot of orders out with you and then you'd get another lot of orders to take back. Used to bike back with them, pass down the piste and round the common and up and home again. So the boys'd do that, you see, you used to keep a boy or perhaps two boys. They was apprentice then, you see, those days. in those days Was this during the war or before? No this was after, well after the war. Well after the war that was before the war Yeah. He had, he used to have one boy with him during the war Brassy he now lives at Ely. He'd be about, Brassy, be eighty now, you know, getting on, yeah. He used to go around with him and bike around with orders, yeah. Then after I got old enough, well I had to do it as well, yeah. Weren't no good saying you wouldn't do it, you had to do it and you had to go whether that was raining or not, yeah cos people relied on you taking round little bit of meat for their dinner that day, yeah. Then they'd give you order for next morning when, when meat got more freer, you know, when there was more of it, after the war had got over. Cos we was, we was, I don't know how long we rationed, do you now? Ooh no I don't. I should think two years, you know, when the restrictions got lifted a bit, so it got better, yeah. Right. To go back to the picture erm Yeah. Your father and his helper are both wearing white aprons Yes, that's right. Erm but the other chap's wearing a striped one. He's he's got a striped apron on. Is is That's what he had you see, no doubt. My father, they always had white, my fath I used to have a white apron when I was Why was that? Boss man. Well, well you looked better, didn't you? Master man. You look cleaner. Master man. You know and this was er apron for er A worker. worker like, you know, had on. Yes, yes, that's the that sort of er the trade and the smocks were distinction. that thick, what do you call it? Twill. Twill. Twill. Twill stuff that were Twill very thick Thick blue. blue. Yeah that's what they were. A mixture of wool and cotton. So All three of them. So they're wearing smocks underneath the apron? Oh yeah, these are smocks. They're smocks, all those. And they're als they're also wearing trousers as well underneath the smocks? Oh yes, yeah that's right, yes, yes. Yes. Mr got his handkerchief in his top pocket, you see, my father always used to only he's standing a bit that way. When you, when did you first start helping to slaughter the animals? Me? Yes. When I was, I used to go in the slaughterhouse with him when I was about nine yeah. When did you first start killing animals yourself then? Myself, when I was about sixteen, yeah. Well I was always with him, I was brought up with it, you see and then we got the humane killer come along then, yeah and it was quite easy then. I . This when you first started killing Yeah. animals you had the humane killer? Yes that's right, yeah. Had a gun, you see, with a blank, blank cartridge in. That was only like a, that was like a bolt used to go, shoot this bolt in into the brain then straight away. That was instant, ever so quick. That was as quick as you'd really, yeah. Did you find it difficult at the beginning, I mean to kill, kill the animals and cut No. them up? No I was always used to it, I was brought up with it, you see. That'd be harder with somebody strange what never been in the job. That was different for those to do it, you know, to acclimatize a way of life with er doing the animals yeah. And how long were you an apprentice with your father? All my life I like that bit . Yeah. You were always learning then? I was always learning, yeah, yeah. Always. Father, when he used to, I'd seen him years ago when he was a young man, he'd do a sheep in five minutes. Take the fleece off. So he'd take the fleece off and cut it up Yeah. within five minutes? No, no you just take the fleece off and take the insides out unclear and you'd hang it up like they are now, you see, till next day, you wouldn't touch them no more. You'd let them hang till they'd set yeah. Sorry. What do you mean by set? Well they'd get firm, you know Yes. so's you could cut them next day. You couldn't cut them that day cos they were hot, you see, the day you killed them the, cos father was a rare man he, when we got,we got two fridges, we used to kill a week in hand, you see, one lot was in one fridge, that was in there a week before we touched it yeah. Ah, then they were ice boxes weren't they? Well years ago they were, you see, in the shop, other side of the road, I don't know what he had in here, other side of the road that was an ice box. They used to come three times a week with lumps of ice, oh as big as that, about as thick as that, in bags. Where was this from? Come from Cambridge. They used to make it at Cambridge and they used to come and bring, bring one, there used to be a little door in the top of this fridge and they used to slide it in, you see, and then they'd, that would freeze, keep that fridge cold so's you kept your meat better. When he first started, you see, all you had was a fly safe. Just a big fly safe with that metal mesh on And, or put it down the cellar in the or put it down the cellar, you see, out the way. You ain't got a fridge then, no, yeah. And how long did it take you to cut up, say, one of the bullocks? What next day? The next day, yes. Well you'd perhaps, well you'd, you'd cut that in about erm half hour. Cut it up in the rump and the topside, silverside and erm and take the shin off and the loin of beef, you see, and your flank and you'd take your suet out, you see, cos they used to sell a lot of suet in them days. Sorry, can you say that again? Suet, this Suet. suet, yeah, you know like they have the box suet today, well you bought it either quarter or half pound in a lump. That was the kidney knifed out of the bullocks where the kidney lay in, what you have steak and kidney pies, yeah. That'd take you about half hour to cut that up and tie it. But years ago they used to cut meat different what they do today. Which wa in which way is it different? Well they tie so much up today, you see, where years ago they'd keep cutting from it, you see, and people weren't so particular, they'd take the lump as it was. They didn't, they didn't bother about being tied up then. But you see, today, I mean, if you go in Newmarket today that's all tied up round in the windows where we didn't have it in the window, no not at all. You'd have a sirloin up like that and Yeah. and say to the custo customer or if she How much did you want? or she'd say to you up to You'd cut what there, Mr and you'd cut a you'd cut them a piece of sirloin off. right off. That wasn't tied up. No and you'd say shall I turn it round for you? Which meant stringing it up and Yeah. putting a skewer in it or shall I leave it as it is? you know. You didn't take no bone out. You didn't take no bone out. No. The bone was left in the sirloin, you just, just fold him round and put a skewer in him and tie him up, with the string round and another one over the top. Wasn't no bone see. If you, years ago when they used to cut the topside, there's an H-bone there, what we call H-bone where you split the legs, when you split a bullock in halves. Well they used to cut a bit of that H-bone on with the topside, that weighed with it. Used to saw it through that fashion like cross, cross there, that's the topside. And that Ernie being a real good slaughterman, I mean, after Tuesday morning he'd always have a bullock Oh yeah. on erm, come on Rollers. and, and chop it right down. He'd chop it down yes In one stroke? Yes, it wouldn't take him many minutes to chop it down. He'd chop it down Well, he would just chop and chop and chop and chop in about four minutes. right down. Yeah, four minutes, yeah, with a big cleaver. That was a big, got a biggish blade on it. A cleaver? Yeah. I shouldn't think Yeah. this young lady knows what a cleaver is really. Now can you remind me again what you were saying about earlier Early? when you was sharpening the ? Oh yes well, I used to, Monday mornings first thing, he always to sharp his knives. Well I used to the grindstone was in the cart shed, you see, and er I used to turn the handle whilst he ground his knives down and then he'd take them in the slaughterhouse, after he got them ground, and put them on this stone to get them smooth, to get a fine edge on the knife. Then he'd, he used to try them on the hairs on his arm and if that cut them off that suited him you see that's how he found that his knives were alright, always, yeah. Did he do anything else special with his knives? When he was cleaning them or? Oh he used to wash them and he had a proper, he had a case what he made up with a rack so as he could drop them all in. He was very particular about his knives? Oh yes oh yes. A sheath a sheath. Sheath yeah they called them yeah They called them a sheath sheath. He was always particular about his ives knives, wasn't he? And very clean. Yeah. You know, wiping er a body down, you know, wiping it right down with a, with a mutton cloth we call it. So you'd first clean the carcass with a mutton cloth? Oh yes used to wipe it. And then wipe it down. Wipe it down Yeah and then you'd start to cut it up? You wouldn't start to cut it up till next day Yes. after that was set, yes. Then you'd quarter it, quarter it off, you see, then carry it down to the shop so as you had some beef in the shop on show in four quarters. You had the two hindquarters and two fores, yeah and the same with the sheep. But with the sheep used to hang them whole in the shop like, like these are now, yeah and the pigs used to be chopped down. We used to chop them down in the slaughterhouse on two pulleys, you see. Mark them down with your knife down the back down here, you know, right down so as you had a mark. Then you used to chop them down this way with a cleaver. I've done thousands bullocks yeah. I used to slaughter as well, you see, and er and see me sister used to help us. When we got the vans, Ernie was with us then and he always used to sharpen her knife up so as he'd give her a fresh one lunchtime to go, he'd, she'd start off up, down from where you'd come from this morning, then she'd go on to Wicken and do that on a Tuesday, Tuesday round. Cut it as you go then, cut the meat off. Each, each customer come out and she'd say well I'll have er three or four lamb chops or a couple of pork chops or whatsoever and you used to cut it as you went, then, with a van yeah. Right, yes. She used to generally get home about, she used to go right to you see, and get home about seven o'clock at night. She was out all day. She used to go out er about eight o'clock in the morning, Tuesday mornings, not Wednesday, cos we had a boy then, we used to call him Frank . He was a young lad and he used to go out Wednesdays and do the other rounds and then she used to go out Fridays and do down the Piste and Barway and come back and then up to Dowfield, then home again and she'd be home by lunchtime then on a Friday. Then Saturday morning she'd load up again and start off round down at the round Mill Corner along the Piste for the and back and then across to the where you come from Ely and all those houses along there and she'd get home about one o'clock from there. And my Then she used to go waiting, didn't she? and my butcher girl and I, Tina Used to go out we used to go on the commons on the commons commons What are, what are what are the commons? Eastern common,common Angle common. Angle common. They're greens with houses all round. Round the outside. They used to let the commons in the summertime. Have common rights, they used to have horses on them like, like horses and stock, you know, cows and to graze belonging to different people. They had what they call common rights they are, yeah. They us and there's one, two, three. There's Angle common and common and Eastern common. Now they let them out in the summertime to different people. They used to pay, perhaps, thirty five a head or something like that for the summer, whole summer till November, then you'd say they'd for home again, yeah. And, and that was a real, what, family business because we'd, perhaps, meet somebody Mrs Yes. Gertie Gertie er say Mrs when you get to mine put the meat in the fridge. Fridge and just put the bread in as well if the baker's been, would you and see if the milk's been left as well and just pop that in as well and Tina, my little butcher girl, one day said Mrs shall we stop and cook the dinner? Yeah that's right She was She was so you know Yeah. What? fed up with her Wanted to ge wanted to get done, you know Yes yeah. So in fact you would be working in the shop while your wife went round? Yes Yes yeah And then when you were out she was working in the shop? Yeah, that's right. Yes. Yeah That's how you work it? Oh yeah. With a with a boy. Yeah, with a boy. You know, Frank Yeah. growing up, a boy, or, or David are a wonderful help, wasn't he? He was a good boy and so was Frank. But David's erm hips went, you know, and he couldn't do it any He couldn't work no longer, couldn't stand you see. had trouble with his hips, if not he was Yeah he give the butchering up, too much for him. He was a, a nice Oh he was a nice lad. nice lad, yes. Yes. He would've been an asset if he's Oh yes, if things had been alright. If he er Yes if his hips had been okay Yes, yes. Yeah. Yeah Oh it's a, it's a lifetime story. Yeah, that is a lifetime story. I think you told me that erm the bullocks were on show and won prizes, is that right? Oh yes Christmas time. Yes what did you do, what did you do at Christmas time? I used to, I used to buy them from Smithfield, the show, cattle show and years ago, when we had them down home, we used to show them Saturday nights outside the front of the shop. Hold them out there That was the carcasses of the bullocks? No, they was just the bullocks alive, used to show them. They used to come home, the sh the show used to shut on a Friday at half past five and they'd come by train then, years ago, they used to be loaded in London, Liverpool Street or one of the stations there, come down to Soham and we used to, they used to arrive here about er twelve o'clock time in the morning. We used to go up and Mr get his. We used to get ours, I used to fetch ours and we used to have them on show Saturday nights, with the lights up outside and the shop open. Ah, but you see Yeah. you'd got that archway Then yeah well then things a few years back we'd got archway, you see, and we used to tie the bullocks in the archway. We used to put some straw down and the manger and we used to give them some hay and they'd amuse themselves in there tied up. My daughter used to make it like a nativity Yeah. scene with all the animals With some sheep in the sheep in the corner with sheep. hurdles, plus four hurdles to make them a square People would you know come along while they, when they were shopping Saturdays and, and, and look Well there'd be hundreds of people come cos it looked just like er well on a Christmas card, you know, with the straw down Oh yes. underneath this archway. Yes. We'd just, utilize the archway, you know, it went with the shop and Yeah. it used to look really nice, didn't it? Oh yes, yeah and hundreds of people used to look at it. Look with, with a lantern. They was always in there Saturday afternoons, you see, then You used to have your we used to have my light on in this archway, yeah. yard lantern mm, mm. Yeah. I mean after that Used to put a cloth over the back so as they were warm. Inside the yard there was hooks up at the back of the place and we used to hang this big cloth down so they were warm. There weren't no draught go through, you see. They had four or five bullocks in there. And when was this? Oh it's about nineteen sixty, yeah. And then after you showed, after you showed the bullocks you'd then kill them? We used to kill them perhaps, three or four days later, perhaps a week later. What was on the Sunday before the Christmas? They used to be in the boxes up the yard, you see, you used to lay them and feed them for perhaps a week before you killed them. You wouldn't kill them straight away cos they're so Why was that? Well, bullocks being messed about, they're hot and upset, they don't set so well. We never used to kill a bullock straight home from market. Never. Never. Used to let them rest We used to let them rest. They always used to go up the farm or we used to lay them in the boxes, up the yard, the church yard yeah. We had big stables up there, where we finished up. What about the other animals erm the pigs, for example, would you kill them immediately after market or would you also No. let them rest? No they used to come home on the Thursday, we'd perhaps didn't kill them till Monday. They used to be fed in the pen up there and they wouldn't be killed till Mondays. They used to have a rest, you see. But that is the trouble with meat today, you see, that's not rested. They go into these big abattoirs from the markets, kill, they're all hot and flustered, you see where we used to rest our bullocks and pigs and sheep. And you think it gave a better meat because I know it did definitely. The meat was set better, ever so much, yeah. You tell me that you don't in fact, sorry, on the Sunday before you killed the animals, you didn't in fact feed them. No. Why was that? Only water. Water. Water. We didn't want to kill them full, you see, they're, that was a waste of food and it wasn't so good for them. Like you having an op? Just the same thing. Just the same, yeah. Now if we can go back to the cart that you've kindly given Yes. to the museum. Yeah yes Where was it made? Over, over a hundred years ago. Where? Where was it made? Where was that? I really couldn't say. Whether Ernie made it years ago, I shouldn't be surprised. He used to make a lot of carts. He lived in and I believe he made that one, yeah. Yeah, I should say so. Cos we used to keep two, you see, I told you we kept two. We used, father, after he got motorized, he sold one of them to a man named at Fordham. He was another butcher, you see, he bought the other cart and my father kept the best, this cart you've got was the best cart, yeah. And were you alone in the cart when you were going round about or did you have a boy with you? No I was alone, yeah and the horse used to ge used to stay. If I got one what was a bit tricky I used to perhaps tie him to the gate, but they got used to it. They knew every day you, when you went on the rounds they knew just where to stop and start, especially the last pony I had. It used to belong to a man name up here. He used to go into the market with him. Then he give up, he got, you know, older and we bought the pony off him and she was used to rounds, you see, and she was used to pulling, after you'd started going down the Fen she knew all the places. And you went out every day? Eh? Went out every day? Three, no twice a week down the Fen. But you'd be perhaps fetching some pigs home from Wicken on the Monday morning, you see, and she might go again during the week, perhaps Wednesday at Wicken to fetch some more, three or four more pigs. With the carcasses in the cart, were they put on trays or put in bags or? No they was, used to cut it up smaller so as you could handle it. You know a topside, and a silverside, a rump. The rump would be on its own, you see. On that rack on On the rack. On a, there used to be shelves in that cart then. You see where they go, can't you? That's right, yes. There'd be a shelf in the middle and another one on the floor and the block's on the back, we used to cut on that. Right. So the meat was placed on racks and Yeah. shelves? Yes, oh yes in Right the cart, yeah and you'd cut from them. Whatever the person wanted you used to cut it. She used to say I'll have a piece of topside and I used to get it down and cut her a piece of topside and sausages as well and pork chops. You know when things got fresh she'd perhaps have enough for all week or till you went on the Tuesday, you see, yeah. When you're going round the Fens, you must've had a very early start in the morning, did you? Oh yeah we'd start about, used to load up about eight o'clock, go down the Fen, yeah. You'd start then You'd start then, get home about half past three in the afternoon, yeah you'd work before that but you wouldn't, you'd start Yeah. So what time were you up in the morning then? Oh six o'clock, before six. Used to have to feed the ponies early. Six o'clock they used to have their feed, two or three feeds before they went out. That would consist of oats and and chaff. That was their food. Used to give them whole oats, you see, cos that was such a good standard for them for running, you see. This last pony I had, from Mrs to Soham church, she used to do it in twenty minutes and I never held the reins. She used to know her way home. I used to stick the rein, there was a little tiny, the thing has gone what's on side of the cart, a little hook on the side of the cart, where I used to hook the reins on and she'd just come home herself with me on top. Didn't want to touch them and she'd draw up and come in the church, in the shop yard there and I used to, when I got home she'd be hot, you see. I used to unyoke and make a wisp of straw and wisp her all over, rub all the sweat off so they didn't take cold, you see. Then I used to feed her and I didn't let her have any water when she was hot cos that give them colic, you see, sometimes. Then after she got over she used, I used to give her some water then. She used to have all the water she liked after she got hot, cooled off, yeah. When you finished your round, sorry, when you finished work after you'd Yeah. been on a round, what time was that? That'd be about, well we used to finish, close about five o'clock, half past five. We won't, if anybody come in we stopped open, didn't we mother? Yes. Yeah. We used to say well we think they're done now, right Yeah. erm I'll go home and get a Tea, dinner ready. I'll get the It used to be dinner for us at night, you see, cos we didn't have time for stopping like at lunchtime. And, and you'd, I'd, you'd say how long would we be and well we'd come to er, you know, an agr Agreement on time. and he'd, he'd work until I cooked. Yes. you know ? Just trying to see if there was any, Ernie, I'm trying to hunt Ernie up but I can't find him yet. There's one in, one there with him in the slaughterhouses. Yeah I know . When we fi if we do find it we'll bring it, we'll bring it. That's, that's my, my granddad, look Oh yes. and the butcher boy and Tip the dog. That was down way. Yes Right And that was, you know, that was my grandparents when they retired, you know, he was sixty five, she was younger because she was eighteen when she married him at twenty six you know. All aprons were then, they was always fringed right the way around. And you don't know why they were fringed? No I think they was just made like that in those days, yes. What was your father holding in his hand there? Oh he, I should say he'd got a knife in his hand knife that'd be. That's either a knife or a steel, yeah just a steel you sharpen and that's a bigger steel than what they use, I've got a big steeler now what I use and that's what that would be a steel. No doubt he was, you know, got something in his hand and just holding it with on, on the bar, yeah. Part-time! When you were working with your husband in the shop, what did you do? The beginning of the week I used to cut the meat like he did and erm and take orders. If anybody said, if, Tuesday we started, if anybody said on the, what they want sent them Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, take all the orders down under their appropriate names in the book but right an Mond Tuesday, Wednesday Thursday my day off and Friday and Saturday I was in the office. But if there was a gap anywhere I filled it and squeezed my office work in, in between. And you also kept the house as well? Yes You must've found that very tiring, did you? Worked hard! She used to cut the meat just the same yeah as I did. Both of us. Yes Yeah Did you mind cutting the meat? No, loved it. Loved it, loved my job. Were there any times when you wouldn't work in the shop or wouldn't cut the meat? Erm well just the Friday and the Saturday when I should be doing all the bookwork, you know, making the tickets up. What, what people had, had Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday and they perhaps came for their order on the, or their weekend joint on the Friday and I'd make the whole ticket up and they'd pay and then that ticket would be torn off and if they wanted that meat delivered on the Saturday, that would be delivered with that ticket on the top. But erm I had to do that in between if Harry hadn't got enough help. And Harry then had just Ernie to help on the slaughtering. Well he was just a slaughterman then he always used to try and have Frank, another one of our butcher boys, or David or Frank to help him. But erm if people fell sick, you know, anybody fell sick, well you all, you had to fall in and fill their place. And er then we had a Mr didn't we Dad? Oh and our son used to help on a Friday from eleven o'clock Until evening time until the evening and Sat and Saturday. Yeah. Yes. But he didn't like butchering so Why was that? He liked the farming better. He liked the farming better. He didn't like being tied up to the women. Farming is freer. You're not forced to er open at half past eight and er shut at dinner time and erm farming you are freer, aren't you? So er after what well, well he just didn't want to carry on. Did you find it strange working in butch butchery? Did people think it was strange you working and helping a butcher? No, they just accepted me. You know, I was Jessie and he was Harry and that's all there was to it! And then I had come from erm what shall we say, a general, my grandparents had kept a general shop and general I mean, from baking, he was a baker er a butcher a coalman and my grandmother saw after the haberdashery, hats etcetera and the grocery. So I had co I had come from, what would you say, the right stock, hadn't I? I can't think of a better way, that was in the blood, put it like that. It was, it was no erm it was natural. Were there any things about the job you didn't like? Any things you didn't like doing or felt uneasy doing? No. You found it all quite natural? I loved it! I, I would never have given up, not me. I would have flogged myself to the death up to the end. I did! But I would have gone further. See I, I didn't want to give up. I felt after working hard for twenty seven years I felt it was a shame. I didn't accept er the opportunity to retire and take it easy, it seemed as if I had worked twenty seven years for nothing! But you must of had the enjoyment of, of the work itself? Oh yes! But I would of liked to of handed it on to someone else! Well our son to carry it Yes on with it. Yes. Yeah. Yes no. He wouldn't just No. he didn't just like it. No. No. He'd do all the slaughtering, do all that sort of business, but he wouldn't er he did, he used to come and help us Fridays and Saturdays but he'd rather be up the farm on his tractor. Yes. Yeah. I mean he's a very good mecha me mechanic, isn't he? Oh yes. I mean he keeps these, what do you call them, what do you call them diggers and everything? Tyres J J J C Bs? Yeah that's right. And does all the work repair work to them himself Yes. but he didn't want the erm, is it tedious work would you Yes. say? Oh yes. Or you have to please everybody Yeah. and you had to be nice to everybody don't you? And you didn't find that difficult? You No. No. enjoyed meeting No. No I didn't find it difficult. I mean if I didn't like the person I wouldn't let them know. When you're working in the shop er and you're helping perhaps with the slaughtering and things like that No I didn't do any slaughtering, no not me, no not slaughtering. I was a shop, shop girl. You used to cut used to do the butchering and Cut, shop, yes the shop. Yes, yes. Yeah. Er the shop find the word for it a butcher in a shop. Yes. Well when you were cutting up the meat when you, in the shop and things like that, did you wear any special clothes for that? Used to have an overall. An overall. Yeah. And a, I was like Harry, you could, I could work the whole week and I, I wouldn't be dirty. No We worked clean. Clean yeah. How did you manage not to get blood and things like that onto your clothes then? We used to, we used to have a wiper there, you see, a clean wiper on the block used to wipe your hands I used to wash them. You either work clean or you work messy Work mucky mucky, yeah. And you tried to work clean. That is so, yeah Yes yes. Does that mean you have to, had to work fairly slowly and carefully? No, no. I er we had to keep busy, you see, cos it was always You had to keep full! We always had We was always full of customers. we always had a queue. That was queue outside there Tuesday mornings all along the front of the shop. There'd be just us two, see cos all the others they was out, my sister was on the round Yes, Frank was on the round. They was on the round There'd be just two vans two vans two vans out yeah. You didn't wear an apron like the men are wearing in the I did. photograph? No, I did. You you wore I used a white I used to have a white apron. But you didn't feel I wo comfortable wearing a white apron? No, she's always in an overall. My I wore, I was, was sister was, she was in an overall I always used to wear a yellow overall, yellow. Why yellow? Always erm. Yeah Yes, daffodil yellow, always yellow. I, personality, isn't it? What you feel happiest in, isn't it? I believe in wearing what you feel comfortable, you work better and er like the block, well you'd, right after we'd cut anything we'd just When we finished it wipe give it a wipe wiped it up. Always kept it and then I used to clean. then I used to scrape it at night when we'd finished. When we'd cleared the shop out and put the stuff in the fridge, I used to all, scrub all round all the ta you know, the shelves round the sides and clean the scale down and the bacon machine and I used to scrape the block with a proper scraper. And this was Used to every night? Yeah we used to shake a bit of sawdust on and then scrape it, you see, cos the sawdust picked the blood up, you see, clean. That's what the sawdust was for. You see actually I started, once my kiddies got to school, School yeah. then I started working more and more and more More. and as they married and left home, I was working Every day every day. It was a gradual process. Yeah. You know, mum was doing more. Er Yeah. that's what you call a family business, isn't it? Yeah, that is a family business That's right, yes, yes That is a family definitely business. When one drops out and sits by the fire, another member comes along and Take the place takes their place. Yeah. I mean, your mother sat by the fire for years Yes, yeah. controlling everything Yeah, oh yeah. so she thought. Yeah yeah And you did the same did you? Me? No I never, I've No, still worked. I ha I haven't sat, I haven't sat yet No, not yet. not yet. No. No, I'm hoping to. I want to buy erm I want to buy a swinging chair. See in the latter part of my, my father's time he wasn't a well man, was he? No. He used to, what they call a haemophilia, bleeds from the nose a lot. Hem haemophiliac Yes. Used to bleed. Yeah. So he er That's the way, you started when he Yes, I started when he he left off of it. he started to deteriorate somewhat. He used to come into the shop after a little while and he'd go back in the kitchen again and he'd come back again later on. He was never a well man. No. He was always under the doctor. Yes. His last few, last, what, twenty years, was it? Oh yes. Yes. When people looked after their own at home, you know, it went on for years and years, didn't it? Mm. You must've had to be very careful then when he was slaughtering the animals if he was a haemo He wasn't so bad then. This, this gradually come on as he got older, you see, this haemophilia trouble with his nose. He used to, he was not like that when he was a young man he No. was alright then. But as he got older this, that was in the family though, my sister was like that, Olga, the one what used to be with us. Yes. She used to bleed The one what's just recently died. She was a, a one in thirteen of Yeah. England. It's rare for a woman, isn't it? Rare yeah It goes down She used to sometimes go on the round with her nose plugged, yeah. And then She'd perhaps take the plugs out dinnertime when she got home when it had stopped. then she'd go in Yeah. the RAF at Ely for so many days and have Have a build up the blood so many pints of blood perhaps six pints of blood at a time. at a time. Yeah. Then she'd be fit. She'd go again then for a time, perhaps three or four months. See they build her up with this blood and she was alright then, you see. Yeah. And then this arthritis caught up with her. She had arthritis bad, didn't she? Mm. At the finish, the last, well she had arthritis about twenty seven years altogether but You know a long time, a long time. it gradually got worse. You know Yeah. Wear and tear of the Oh yeah. wear and tear of the job, you see, it's not a woman's job really. But you No. felt quite happy doing it? She loved it. Used to keep I your shoulders fit, didn't you? I, I can tell you I, I've done it, you know. It's wear Yeah. and tear oh Yeah. it's erm it's a man's job really. Yeah. Er a woman is alright in a shop just serving, like they do today, but we were actually cutting meat, you know, we were Cutting you were cutting chops and doing a man's job. you were cutting chops and pork chops, lamb chops, and Yes. steak Mm. and chuck steak Yes, we was doing a man's job. liver Working doing heavy pig's fry work. We used to sell a lot of pig's fry on Tuesday morning Mm that was that was cos of the fat, the fat so as they just lay it over the top and put the potatoes and onions Right well it's just two minutes three minutes past eight o'clock and erm I welcome you all to this hustings meeting of Greater Manchester West Liberal Democrats. Greater Manchester, West, just in case anybody is in any doubt, consist of eight parliamentary constituencies. Salford East, Eccles, Worsley, Bolton West, Bolton Northeast, Bolton Southeast, Berry North and Berry South. It has erm at the last European Election it had five hundred and twenty two thousand voters, so picking the candidate is really the first stage on s trying to get amongst five hundred and twenty two thousand voters. Er that was Bob , who's from Worsley, he's a steward. The chappie who let you in at the front door was Norman he's form Salford East. Next to me is Neil , he's the returning officer, he's the chairman of the candidates committee in erm the northwest. Mm. Me right hand side is John one of the candidates, and my left hand side is er Frank . Er the r the steering committee consisted of eight members, one form each constituency, and we started meeting last November. And er we er ploughed through this until tonight, and er I think I'm right, Mr returning officer, say that we're the first Euro constituency in the northwest to get to this stage. So erm in spite of all the odds of trying to get a candidates a at the beginning, and finding that there wasn't one available, and it wouldn't Isn't one e well not didn't exist. I must say that street, er they were a little busy at the time with Newbury and Christchurch and who can blame but them that they were very successful. If er if we can be as successful next June, I'd be very happy. Erm well what we decided on the the procedure was that we'd toss a coin, in front of you all, we must be democratic, and some Either of these two gentleman is going to say heads or tails, and whoever wins can choose either to go erm first or second. They have er thirty minutes each, er twenty minutes A at least ten minutes have to be given over to you for questions, so they speak for a maximum of twenty minutes. The one who goes f fi Who's going to go second goes out so that he doesn't hear anything and erm and then they change over er after thirty minutes. And then you vote. Er we have received, the returning officer, what A hundred and twenty one. A hundred and twenty one postal votes. Erm out of er the five hundred and forty two er cards went out . Mm. Voting slips went out. Erm So we come now to tossing, who who's going to call? Tail. It is. I'll go first. Go on. Thank you. We w we'll l we'll we'll call you. Er if you just let look. So I'm The time is going to be as per my watch. So we er we'll time them so We must be terribly fair. And it's er six minutes, seven minutes past Seven minutes past eight. John. L l John is first, he's from Marple and I'm certain you've all read his er little report. Well good evening everybody, friends, Liberal Democrats. My name's John and I am indeed from Ahzelgrove local party in the Euro constituency of Greater Manchester East. And to get one thing out of the way, straight away. Greater Manchester West is my first choice, not Greater Manchester East, and when I looked at the vote in the last contest, back in nineteen eighty eight, when the erm then Alliance, or the ex-Alliance vote was split between the social erm liberal democrats as they were then, and the S D P, and saw the votes I had to beat this time, six thousand nine hundred, I thought I can look good next to that. Erm being more serious, erm Marple isn't very far away and it only took me thirty minutes to get from my house in Marple to here, tonight, and although some of the constituency's further away than this and that is actually one of the main considerations, and we're local. Erm the European election's next year, Europe, the issue. I think the first thing you're going to need from any candidate is that they're going to have to believe in Europe. The public aren't convince, if the candidate isn't convinced it's going to be difficult for everybody. And I am convinced about Europe and I do believe in Europe, very much. One of the first books I read as a young adult was A G L Fisher's History of Europe. And it struck me straight away that although the twentieth century as it marched on made us look more and more like Americans, we are Europeans, we always have been Europeans, our roots are there, our culture's there and of course in the late twentieth century our economic needs, and the geographical links, the electronic links mean that we are there whether we like it or not. And I'm proud to be a European and believe in Europe as well as accepting the realities. I believe some of the things we have to share with the Europeans and learn from them are very urgent in Britain at the moment. There is the little manner of planning. We don't like everything the French do, but they plan things like railways. And public transport is in my view one of the most disgraceful aspects in modern Britain. And one where if we're not prepared to learn from the Europeans, whether it's integrated transport in cities or whether it's intercity links or wherever, we're going to be in a great deal of trouble. And education. Even although Spain is not one of the most well off, one of the richer countries, they pumped money into education after democracy and E C ownership came to their country. And they've caught up from being one of the most illiterate countries in Europe to on the edge of the leading group. Education. Planning for transport, things like that. We have to learn form them, we have to be in with them, we are Europeans, and that is our destiny. And it's the Liberal Democrats, friends, that have got the best policies on these things. We're the one's who unashamedly say, Europe has to go forward if it doesn't go backwards. We are going to have Europe as an E C, since we accepted for example the single market. If we don't move towards some form of Federal structure, with of course some celerity we will decay, we will go backwards. We're not ashamed to say that. The heart of Europe as we mean it, is not John Major's heart of Europe. A sort of erm standing really on the sidelines, just stopping people from doing things and smirking when other people get into difficulties. Our Europe is a is a Europe which is proud that we are similar and we can share things. We believe in the social contract. I was a bit disappointed that we weren't that warm on it initially. And it is actually now being remembered by one or two of our opponents. But whatever, we are keen on it now, we should always have been, and if you treat people at the work place just like dirt, if you continue to turn Britain into a sweat shop, drive down wages, drive down people's rights, then you may get some form of external investment come into this country, but we will never compete with the Dutch and the Germans and the Scandinavians, and we will never have a happy and united country. I'm proud that we are now, fully, in line with the social contract. And as I say, we believe that we have to have a federal structure and we believe in m democracy throughout Europe and throughout Britain. And I always find it extremely amusing that the government of this country screams about Brussels wanting to centralize everything when they of course, are the most centralizing British government, the present conservatives, that we've ever known. and the idea of local democracy in this country, for example, is totally shamed next to parts of the Bundes Republic of Germany or Italy or indeed many other countries. So We've got the right policies, I believe in Europe, I'm sure you round the room here tonight do, it's an issue we've got to raise. Now what about the coming campaign. It's all very well believing in things, it's all very well being on board for the ideas, but this campaign in greater Manchester West, and elsewhere, has got to achieve things. It's not long away, the second week in June next year. Even though we're first to get going we're not exactly quick to get going. And I I view that this campaign as having basically, four major, and one personal objective. The objectives are surely that we do the Liberal Democrats some real good, both nationally and in this area, in the longer term as well as for next June. Until we remove the present government from Westminster, then Europe is going to struggle to do us a great deal of good. Because the present British government are so totally encompassing, they're such a dead hand, they are doing so much damage that the Liberal Democrat's have got to be seen as a party that can help beat them or indeed, entirely on its own beat them. And next June is a great opportunity for the Liberal Democrats. Even if some of the signs of upturn, of turn around, of better things to come the government are trying to trumpet at the moment. Even if they turn out to be right, some of them, they still have British Rail privatization, they still have VAT on fuel, they still have rising water charges, they still have the education wrangle. They are in a lot of trouble and we have got to benefit from it. I think, as I said before, the pro The idea of Europe, the profile of Europe is important, and although i don't think I should be campaign, if I win tonight, on things that interest me and don't interest others, I'm not afraid to say that I do want to make it, to a degree at least, a genuine European campaign. I want us to get a thoroughly good vote in this Euro constituency, by maximizing our effectiveness. Getting out, to vote for us, the people who will vote for us. It may be a low turnout, but our voters don't have to be part of a low turnout. And there could be a protest vote, there will be a protest vote, as the greens knew last time, and we to our sadness found out last time. There is a c a protest vote in such elections that can be milked very successfully. Now also, knowing that there's only just over five hundred or just six hundred members of the Liberal Democrats, in the eight constituencies that comprise our Euro constituency, there will be many benefits that can come off a Euro campaign in terms of membership, in terms of helpers, in in terms of morale and generally raising our profile, just through press contacts and things like that. So I'm hoping to work with you to help the are in terms of the Liberal Democrat membership and activism, in a general sense, that can be used later. And finally I'm obviously hoping to do myself some good. I've been a candidate before, I don't like to do things badly, since coming into politics I don't think I have done things badly, I don't want to fail you and I don't want you to see me as a failure. So I shall be doing my best. We've got to be realistic. Time is short, resources are short. For my first as I put down in my erm blurb before, will be to meet you in small or large groups throughout the Euro constituency, and see what you can do to help me and to convince you erm that I will be a a good campaign leader, a good candidate. To get you on board, to get you on my side. To start looking at press links very quickly, because ah I prospective candidate has always got a lead in, and so many issues have a European dimension. Erm obviously to look for the start of a campaign team as soon as possible. So that we've got a running organization that can react to things, and indeed proact as well. And clearly anyone from outside Northwest Manchester has got to start looking at the are and doing some research and finding out where the big firms are, who the important people are, etcetera, to make sure that I know the area that I'm candidate in. Very briefly to move on to the further thing now, What about myself as your prospective candidate? What can i offer you? Apart from believing in it and wanting to do it? Well as I said, i am a convinced European, and I'm perfectly comfortable debating European issues. Not just about the E E C, but about Europe and Europeans. I speak some French and some Italian. My own specialism in Europe is Italy and er believe you me, although Italian politics is a terrific mess, you can't help finding when you look at It Italian the Italian scene at the moment, some of the decadence and decay of one party rule in this country. And some of the connections are quite revealing, and the actions of the Italians in getting very very frustrated and angry now, and having the Christian Democrats and the Mafia and the and the establishment ruling them for many many years, I think does them proud and er maybe a little bit of anger here, about the same issues, would go down quite well. Erm er so I am a European, I like talking about Europe, I've travelled extensively in Europe erm so it's an interest, I'm comfortable. Erm as a candidate and as a pre-candidate in the period up to the campaign, I have been a er a parliamentary candidate twice, in nineteen eighty seven in Stockport and in nineteen eighty three in Denton and Reddish. As I I love being a candidate, I love talking to voters, I like being active and doing things and that's the reason basically that I want to be your Euro candidate, I'm ready to be a candidate again. But also in the years since the Liberal Democrats' inception, I've been chairman of the Metropolitan Stockport Liberal Democrats. That's the team of management that I, together with one or two others, built up from scratch at the beginning of the Liberal Democrats, and we now in Stockport have a highly successful erm m As I say, tier of management for training, for campaigning, for policy development in Stockport, and as you probably know we do have a good record of winning local council seats. We do do things well, generally speaking, in Stockport. And I've been the leader of of that party for the last four and half years, I am ready to step down from that, and ready to take up this challenge, and I believe that those experiences, and what I've done there, will stand me in good stead. Because some of the time the candidate has to be some of the other things as well. You'll want other people to be you campaign manager, your agent, your press agent and whatever. But sometimes you have to do them yourself. And it's good to know that if you have to, you can. And it's good to know if you, when you know you've got to have to build teams, that you've done it before. I'm a local man, I've lived in Stockport, erm it is of course in the county of Greater Manchester, for twenty five years. Erm I have a wife, erm Pat, and a daughter who is eighteen. Erm but finally, I'm a Liberal Democrat, I'm proud to be one, I was in the Alliance before, an S D P member it turns out, I'm a great admirer of the present leader, Paddy Ashdown, and I think he, and all of us, have done wonders since the dismal days in late eighty seven, when our opinion poll rating was Well single figures and not even necessarily that bigger single figure. But finally I'm a citizen. I think Britain is in a mess, I'm ashamed of some of the things the present government have done. I want the Liberal Democrats to play a major part, both in Britain and in Europe, to turning things round. And for me I want to start here, thank you. Well that was fourteen minutes so you've got fifteen minutes to ask questions of John,and it would help, I think, if you want to ask a question, to stand up and say who you are and where you come from, which constituency. So that gentleman there. Er Salford. Erm you're a European. I want to know two things from you. Your views on training people for their working future. On minimum wages and pension rights. Because some of these have been issues in this country, this work. You mentioned pension rights, you mention er workers training. Mm? Training for work. Yes. And I was hoping to cos I can quote you instances where people have trained in the health service, and they've been told nineteen seventy four seventy five, when you complete your training, you're not guaranteed a job in this health authority. Well training for people for work. I mean t to start off with I don't we we as a nation really are. I've got a horrible feeling tat we're doing too much of getting people ready to do low skill jobs largely from investment from outside. While the real jobs are going elsewhere. The jobs that people need good education to do. But the problem of people be being trained for jobs, and then the jobs not being there, I'm afraid at the moment is European wide. And my own feeling about this is that we do have to move more to planned expansion. We do have to take a leaf, a little bit out of Kenzie's book from the n the late nineteen thirties and afterwards, that when things are receding, you don't batten down the hatches, you don't simply close things in. The government has The governments have got to step in to create opportunities. I know what we hear straight away, oh that's government meddling, that's going to cost a fortune. But Kenzian economics at times like this, has not been a failure. Once you've created the jobs for people it has given the economies an upturn and I feel it's rather a shame that the erm the great problems of the of the Germans particularly have put that pressure for high interest rates through the er E R M, through those currencies and one, I think, good thing of Britain's disaster last year, with with their position in the E R M, is that by lowering interest rates, if we only had a government who wanted to use that opportunity probably, we could train people for for work. Now our government of course, still bolted completely to Reaganomics,Thatcheromics whatever, just believes that business should just get on and do what it wants and drive wages down and sack people if that's what they feel's best. Erm as regards erm pension rights, well my understanding is that through the Maastricht treaty and the social social contract, certainly, many of the protections at work, er will include those of people who have finished work. I don't know if you're alluding to the fact that pension rights might might soon be eroded in this country. that state pension rights are being eroded. Mm. whatever it is Mm. But certainly prefer to see that pensions, that encompass all working people and from the time that we're men to work until they retire and that something is arrange for the person's when they're senior citizens. Well I I I don't know, you know, how practical a scheme as wide ranging as that would be, so I I won't pretend to waffle. Erm I d I d I do know that the pension rights generally, in E C countries, are better than here. We have one of the lowest standard pensions for a for an O A P in the whole of western Europe. and and certainly part of wanting the social contract is to is to give a level of decency to to our people. Erm one has to say though that that does mean creating wealth. that does mean balancing the books, and it does mean moving away from some of the crazy policies of the present government, who have of course encouraged people and companies to avoid paying tax. Erm. constituency. Erm one local issue which is er considerably importance in the area where I live, er is the er proposition to put a very large new motorway through the area er bypassing the whole of the existing motorway system in Greater Manchester. Er the er existing Euro M P, Gary , Mm. er has done a good job, one has to face it, in supporting the objectors to that motorway. Erm first of all er would you, if er if you became Euro candidate er the unequivocally support the objectors to this motorway and secondly, would it be an embarrassment to you having to take the same line as Gary on the matter. Well I can answer the second one first. I e it would not be a problem for me to take the same line as either or any of my er opponents, or the incumbent Mr , erm you know, if they are, frankly, right. What I do think is very dangerous for a p for a candidate in any party is to flirt with the big idea of any of your opponents. And I look back to the Alliance days and Dr Owen's flirtation with elements of Flatcher of Flatcherism, pardon me . I've I've managed it. Erm I knew I would, once that was one. Er of Thatcherism, er t to flirt with elements of that and completely destroy our credibility with a lot of people whose votes we wanted. he flirted with Thatcherism and i Thatcherism,, as a result, helped to grow. On the issue of a of a particular thing, in the constituency, if Mr is right then I don't have a problem disagr er agreeing with him. Whether I would be unequivocally in favour of the protestors, well I'll be guided. I don't live here, I'll talk to people that matter, yourselves, and I'll be guided. you never promise things that, you know, totally before you've seen the facts, but I expect to be reasonable , certainly. Hello. My name's Jeff Chair Salford East. Buried in the sub-text of your speech was the hint of ambiguity about the social chapter. Mm. Er, you know, saying that we've firmed up the policy now, when erm I think a couple of years we were perhaps somewhere different. Mm. What's your explanation? Particularly to people who'd through that at you, in the campaign. I I feel in the early days the the social contract wasn't particularly well known and I think our party initially felt that these things were better handled not though a proper set protocol in the Maastricht treaty. Er Mr Ashdown says er no reason to disagree with him, that he was always in favour of the things in the social contract, but he didn't want them handled in that kind of manner. He thought it was too inflexible. It turns out now that reality is coming to countries all over western Europe, and although I'm s I'm sorry to see the difficulties that our colleagues and friends in western Europe are having erm they are beginning to realize that one or two aspirations of the so social contracts may be extremely expensive. Now my own view is is that this point in time we all do have to get together and agree. And I think as time's gone on our party had just realized wit the stresses and strains of more and more right wing pressure to destroy workers rights and drive wages down. Including for example the scraping of the wages councils which comes up, I think, later this week doesn't it? Erm that the time has now come to accept that we do have to do the same things and it has to be in black and white and it has to be E E C wide. Because, let's face it, if we're all one economy it isn't a level playing field if one country is inviting in erm companies er You know, transnationals, the lot, on the promise it's cheaper to get our workers to work for you, you don't have to pay out for this. They can be sacked If it's less than two years they've been working, they can be sacked at a weeks notice or whatever it is. I mean that isn't going to create Britain as part of the E C of the Netherlands and Belgium and Germany. It's going to create erm a sort of sweat shop in the midst of the others where they'll dump off stuff that they don't want some of their own people to do or their own people won't do. So I I think time has moved on,th the pressure from erm the economic pressure and the right wing pressure has grown and i think we're now doing the right thing. I also feel there was a bit of politics being played and there always will of course, in politics. Next one, anyone? Alan? Alan Erm where do you ? I mean by that not No. I'm in favour Poland, Hungary, Romania to be brought in or are we going to remain this tight little club, which is not Europe, if it's just that little Mm. it's a misnomer to call it Europe Mm. Mm mm. I I think the aspiration has obviously got to be that the E C can grow. Some of the things in the Maastricht treaty don't make a lot of sense and some of the things that are not controversial for example, don't make a lot of sense unless Europe does grow. If if we're going to talk about common defence and that sort of thing, and common erm aid and erm trouble shooting across Europe, it's obviously better for as many countries as possible to be within the inner ring of the E C community. I do fear though somewhat, about the whole idea of too swift growth and countries being encouraged to run before they can walk. And I I think some of the lessons from Eastern Europe are that they have tried to go from one old system to a new system at an incredibly swift pace. And like a big body on small legs,i in a away they're sort of rather wobbling and crumbling. Erm the pressures in the E C at the moment, I think, would be better handled if as nations come,en democratically, economically, erm they come into the E C, not perhaps at the right time for those that are inside, because that might be too late frankly, but but they're not pushed into the E C en bloc, too early. I think, if we're going to be realistic, there are practical dangers for that, that can put in danger erm some of the things we've just been talking about. And we all want an E C for example, with citizens' rights, with th with the social contract, erm a civilized, prosperous E C. If too many coun countries come into the E C as full members before they're ready then I'm not sure that that wouldn't, in fact, obviate some of the things that the recent legislation and the Maastricht treaty, to which we're committed, would do. So I would I would think we've got to cautious, but the aspiration's obviously, have got to be to increase the size. Three minutes left. A any Of the thirty minutes Any question? Yes. Good evening. Erm for the er people, in general terms, feel given the er bogeyman that er we're going wholeheartedly into Europe, into this country. And and er obviously if you're going to be European properly there has to be a full cooperation in many of the aspects of life How would you answer the these bogey this bogeyman tactic of loss of sovereignty,? It's a it's a very difficult problem. Because people who feel like that feel it very deeply and very sincerely. I think it can be tackled from one or two different ways. I think I think first of all it has to be pointed out that what the Maastricht treaty, or I would p perhaps wouldn't always use the word Maastricht, but what the present policies are trying to achieve is not just erm if you like, some loss of sovereignty, but some gaining of sovereignty and in subsidiarity more power for the reason in fact. So it is really a way of of getting away from just everything being in Westminster. And Everything being in Westminster scares, frankly, almost as many people at the moment as too many things being in Brussels. But the the other way of looking at it I I I think is enlightened self interest. We are Europeans. Do we want them to go ahead without us. And that is, although a negative argument, a very powerful one. And when people are asked for the alternatives as being in Europe, they tend to stumble. I mean we're not going to go back to the days of the commonwealth and relying on you know, lamb from New Zealand all the time. We are not Americans, even though I do hate the way we sometimes run around them like the little brother. And big brother's got his own wife and family now and doesn't want little brother around any more. but we still insist we've got this special relationship and er still always want to do what what what they want us to do. I y Sometimes I find that a bit embarrassing. But we're not Americans, we're not part of the ecosphere or when when when we're we're we're not part of their economic erm er area, which of course is being built on E C lines now. Their trade zone with central America and Canada. So I think we have to push the idea of what is your alternative please? So I think enlightened self interest. A realization that it gives us rights that we don't have as well as some sharing, some loss. For example I mean the one thing about the Europe that the Eastbourne electorate apparently ah understood erm was I'm sorry the Christchurch electorate understood, was a social contract. That was the one thing that got interest. If the Europeans can have it, why can't we? That's exactly And I thirty minutes. That's good, a good Well we now are going to change candidates. We're going to somehow, is Norman down there. Can can you get? I'll I'll do it. I will erm retire. Right Hopefully not for good. That's mine John. Be a bad start wouldn't it? Pardon? No Oh I see, I'll leave Thanks a lot. you later. John Yeah. No notes? Oh yeah. Right well we now have our second candi candidate, erm Frank . As you noticed we've put er the put how to pronounce it. And he tells me it's quite easy his little boy of three can pronounce it quite easily. Erm so you have you have another thirty minutes, twenty minutes or less from the candidate. Then followed by er questions, so frank to address the meeting. Thank you Mr chairman, good evening ladies and gentlemen. I intend for fifteen twenty minutes or so, not to get into the issues of policy because you've all got your own particular interests in that particular field and maybe that will come out during the course of the question and answer session. I'm more interested in developing what would be a campaign policy er during the course of tomorrow right through to early June of next year. But first a little bit of background, cos I'm sure you've all read through the the notice and details about me, but I'll just remind you about some highlights. Er I'm a thirty four year old accountant work and I work for a a pi social chapter. It is that is was always discussed in the context of cost within the business and cost to industry. Well there were two that were bandied about as a cost of national Of social chapter in this department. One was eleven billion pounds, it was toted by David Hunt, the employment secretary. When asked how he came up with this figure he couldn't quite s remember and his department didn't know, so if you put that to one side. Michael Forsyth came up with fourteen billion. Said this is the cost to British industry. In fact the costs were only two billion, in reality. The other twelve was a figure that relating to training. And it needs a government like ours to feel that in training is a cost. They don't realize it's an investment in our economy, in individuals and developing erm our ability to create wealth, so twelve billion cost in their mind, I could tell you from someone who's directly involved in a s er obtained training for my er staff members at work. I see it as an investment in them and the company reaps the reward. You were talking West. Erm you were talking about creating a high profile, for example as a candidate,Erm can you tell us how you see the members form the constituencies round here, helping you to obtain this high profile? What would you be looking for us to do to help you as the candidate if you win? Well there are various ways. I think the most immediate one in that's it's on the control of the party, are those er wards that have a focus leaflet. Clearly that goes through many doors throughout the er the constituency, and it is widely read, people look forward to it. Er when you canvass, Oh you're from focus, and they come out with those focus speak, so Frank , in the leaflet, oh he's one of those, he's he's councillor so-and-so's friend, we'll be able to vote for him. Apart from that it's the regular contact, I think, with local constituency and ward members across the whole of greater Manchester West. I will take it upon myself, in terms of alerting the press as to what er how I would project er my view. But I would want a constant dialogue, through various means of communication, to learn about what is going on throughout the whole constituency. Er I've been able just this week to set up a little er programme at er at work whereby er I have a list of all the newspapers and T Vs and radio stations on a file, and I can tap in a press release, press the button and it would fax them all one after the other, to the various interested bodies. So I would be able to respond from information received one evening, be able to produce the press release, press a button and hopefully it will go down the line if the technology will allow that. But this is how I see er establishing that profile, it's principally through the press and the media. I'm not asking the same question. Geoffrey , er do you see the Manchester Evening News as a problem? Erm, well as you probably know Bolton, Boltonian, may be regarded as rather parochial but erm we've always been a little suspicious about Manchester and there probably aren't very many Boltonians you take the Manchester Evening News regularly because we have our own Bolton Evening News. I get it from time to time. I know that the Manchester Evening News from our From the Bolton point of view has always Has appeared to be, rather than have always been, appear to want to have stories. Cos journalists in general, are a of what be described as a lazy breed, but they've got tremendous demands on their time. So be able to produce er a press release of some description, or some information, that is reasonably literate, then, and it's reasonable pertinent to the area that they're th associated with, then they may lift a good deal of it, perhaps not all of it, and plop it into the newspaper. If you're suggesting, and I c I wouldn't argue with you cos I really wouldn't know . If you're suggesting that the Manchester Evening News are proactively against the Liberal Democrats or that they would obstruct erm us in getting a fair crack of the whip, you may well be true, but I think we've got that obstacle overcome, perhaps, in every stage. Because we're not one of the two main parties. We have to be more creative, perhaps in the er press releases we put out, not churn one out every single day, that would be nonsensical, but whatever we do churn out, as a press release, it's got to be relevant, and they will find interesting. Erm Erm erm I wonder if you could just explain to us as to Manchester public in general, benefits of subsidiarity That's a dirty one. It is rather. Well we're all, I think, federalists and believe that power should cascade from the top to that level of decision making best able to take the decision. Erm we can take, as an issue,unemploy employment policy. Now is it appropriate for central government to say this policy for unem for employment should apply across the whole country. I would suggest it's not. At a regional level there are individuals, politicians, who know that here we've got a declining mining industry. How do you deal with that in those communities. You need people at regional level and at that village level, to advise and suggest how money being allocated for that communities benefit, can be best spent. So subsidiarity at the end of the day, is to ensure that that big brother Brussels isn't taking power away from us. That would be look at it, the wrong end of the telescope effectively. It is power that is going to ensure go down to that level of decision making, to those people who know the problems best and would be able to deliver the right solutions. northwest. One gets the impression that two gentlemen concerned are very enthusiastic Europeans, seem to be looking inwardly at Europe. One wonders if, you know, the situation, close to us, Bosnia and the other countries that are suffering in the rest of the world, would occupy their thoughts. Erm it would be extremely difficult t for them not to occupy our thoughts, I'm not sure whether your question is is inviting me to consider what the European Community should be doing in the context of Bosnia. Well I think no greater no other individual but Paddy Ashdown has been providing a healthy lead, but sadly it's one where he's been citing a a an approach to Bosnia one month. The following month the government say oh we can't possibly do that, and four or five months later they hap they happen to do it. The issue, as far as I can see, and I was told, when I was growing it up in school, about the holocaust and that we must ensure that everybody remembers about the holocaust in Germany, and that it should never ever be allowed to happen again. And that sad fact of the matter is, it is happening again, throughout the whole of Bosnia and the former Yugoslavia. It is my contention that we don't sit back and simply allow for peace to develop, and we go and keep that peace. I think there is a moral obligation on the E C, not necessarily the Americans because it is a European problem, to intervene at least to the extent of ensuring protection for ordinary civilians and ensuring that they get food and medical s provision. Now the political can not be imposed. But until such time as that political solution is arrived at, we have to ensure the protection of the people in that particular area of Europe. More or less what I asked personal point of view that er one is afraid that Europe, as it is, is rather limited. The E C C rather inward looking Even Turkey is knocking on the door, what are your Poland, Hungary, Romania knocking on the door and coming in. Or is Europe just west Europe? No Europe isn't just western Europe but I I have personal doubts about the pace of enlarging things. Okay we're taking four new members in in the new year. But if you're going to talk about countries like Turkey, for example, one of the provisions about membership is that there is no dispute as to boundaries, that there are no conflicts on your border, that you have a good humans right re human rights record. I'm afraid Turkey falls foul of probably at least two of those. Si Yes yes. I've just That's right. In terms of the other eastern bloc countries, what you have to say is what is the long terms aspiration and goal of the E C? I see it as having, through a united Europe, a united economy. We're already seeing the strains on Eur European economic mo er union and E R M, with the twelve nations we have, I don't think it'll get any better or worse with the other four coming in. But you're going to get a wider latitude and difference of i of of strength of economy by bringing in the eastern bloc in the short term. Maybe in ten, fifteen years the situation may change, but I don't think enlargement for enlargement's sake is going to be of benefit to the E C. We have a longer term view, I think, in mind. And that by all means, take them in in due course, but it's when they can fit into the economic jigsaw that we've actually created. Well come on, we've another eight minutes. Yes yes. Erm Bob Worsley. Erm could could we have your views please er about erm transport policies, more particularly motorways in the Greater Manchester West er area. Erm the existing er Euro MP has been quite active in supporting objections to the Greater Manchester northern relief. Er would you support the objectors and would be an embarrassment to you having to s to sing the same tune as Gary ? councillor. I have no ob no problems in actually singing the same tune as Gary what so ever. there are bound to be occasions and er it's happened a few occasions during my political life, where you do er find agreement with people of of various parties. Because not everything was going to be compartmentalized as an issue exclusively for the liberals or the socialists or the conservatives, so there's going to be a degree of cross party support on certain issues, and this indeed could be one of them. In terms of the general transport policy, we have go to address the issue of the motor car. Are we going to allow it to determine our policy or is our policy going to determine the car? And I think it's going to have to be the latter, we are going to have to decide, and the M twenty five enlargement is the critical debate at the moment. Are we going to go for fourteen lane high way, or motorway, on the M twenty five, cos if you do, all the roads that lead from it are going to have to be fourteen lane. I think we've got to draw the line and say there is going to be a cost to our econ our ecology, if we allow it to run in the way the government have in mind. We have to control it and those who nee or use the car, are going to have to pay the price of using that car. By putting a premium on the use of it, then presumably, there are going to be fewer people who are going to use it over a period of time. To actually just sit back on the hands, as the government are doing, is not a policy, it's an abdication of responsibility. Can you tell us how you specifically in the northwest, about this Europe in this area, what benefits are going to Well they've they've obviously varied and most of them are economic based. At the moment we don't Relating to the transport issue, we haven't yet a link from the northwest down through to the chunnel in to into the rest of Europe. To a certain extent we're isolated up here. I would see through a more coactive involvement in Europe, and establishing not just the physical link of the chunnel but expanding it right up to the northwest, a line that goes right the way through, that there is a material benefit to this area, from that connection. Erm by insuring that direct line, and that we have training facilities here which are part of the social contract, and that we have er investment, through regional investment, in this particular area, then we can create jobs that suit the skills that we've er made available to the general population, and that we got through that rail link a direct line access to all the markets within Europe, which is going to expand, er not withstanding my objections, from the twelve to the sixteen and right the way through to to Russia. er as a Euro candidate it would take a colossal amount of time. I'm wondering how you'll manage to fit it in with your work and family matters, er all the time that you'll need to do this, Well i think we've all got to make various allowances in terms of various commitments. If you were to say would you compromise your family and work to their detriment, then no I wouldn't. Anybody who would to s Any s Anybody saying anything to the contrary i would very much suspect their their motives. Er, but clearly I I will commit whatever time I have available, and I shall make as much time as available, I have the support of Ross, my wife, this is all fully discussed before I even went through the panelling process. There's no point in going this far unless you have the family behind you. And I have a very strong extended family as you might expect of a half Italian, mother always cooking pasta and what have you at home. Very rarely do I eat at home. Erm so I I'm confident that the job that's there to be done, in Greater Manchester West, I will be able to do er to my satisfaction, hopefully to the party's as well. Three minutes left. Little question. Oh right at the back there. Alan What do you think is the biggest single problem that's er is taking up time in without giving ? I look at this from a point of view electioneering. What is the biggest single problem taking up ? I suppose it depends on the family but trying to envisage an average family, on thing that would immediately come to mind erm is probably security. Security in the context, not just of law and order, but security in terms of can they be sure that they have a job next month, in six months time. And part of the reason why we're not really out of the recession, is that people are not willing to commit themselves to any further expenditure because they're not quite sure in six months or twelve months time, as to whether they're going to have anything in the way of a job. So it's that lack of security, lack of confidence about the future, and they need to be ins assured that there is, hopefully, a light at the end of the tunnel. And the Liberal Democrats can identify that point of light, enlarge on it and make life, hopefully, less insecure. Well I think l i You've another minute if you want to say anything, but er Anybody's got a very quickie that's, you know a yes or no, I mean? Oh. In view of your connection with Italy, would you be able, conscientiously, to push the idea of proportional representation? Yes. Yes. No problem whatsoever because even their current s The new system they've adopted allows for P R for at least a quarter of the MPs that are being returned. You see the Italians when they vote in that referendum, I've discussed it with quite a few cousins at the time, it wasn't they're exactly against P R, they're just against the whole system. It was corrupt from top to bottom, and they were s They knew that it was going on. I know uncles who've given salamis and bo bottles to the teach to give their sons and daughters a good report so that they can get a place in university. Graft and corruption goes o throughout Italy, but it's the extent of it and who was involved in it up to the Prime Minister that was the problem, but no I have no problems, John I know you're trying to get on. Erm No no I have no problem You were shuffling. So I have no problem what so ever er with advocating P R within Europe, in spite of my er Italian background. Right that's it. Thank you, thank you very much. I can't help but think, chairman, in my career I was never given a bottle of whisky to help with the No I've never got anything ei That's right. I've now got the job Oh i think you have to go out. Oh right. I've now got the job of erm First of all, all on your er seats were little slips asking if you'd like commit money. but now id the the time to vote. And the the biscuit box is for your votes and the one with the black label on is is for your money or your commitment or your promises. So don't anybody say we're all crackers, Thank you. It's not for that it's for Ooh yes. Yes thank you. Neil did. If it if it had been a tie we would have tossed a coin. Pardon? You did indeed Norman and I'd never thought of it, but there we are. S so we have a result and I won't sit down on empty So there you are John, there you are. Er can i just say er before erm I announce the result, I whispered to Frank there in announcing the result I didn't know I couldn't pronounce his name so I has to check it. Erm, but Greater Manchester West is the first erm constituency to select, and for us as a regional party, er the procedures which you have adopted erm have been a model if you like, and the way John and his team have conducted the election, er deserve our praise and thanks, Hear hear. and yours because he has been he has been diligent in the extreme, in keeping me informed and in the way he and Bob and Norman, I'm sorry I don't know the rest of the team, I don't know the other five erm Chris. But the way in which was the way in which that group have conducted this election,i i i is, as far as we're concerned, is a model. Er Mary I think has gone, has she gone? No you Ma M M We we had a candidate's committee last night, I'm just doing this so you you keep you on your toes until we get to the result, you know. Erm we had er we had a candidate's committee meeting last night, in which we were concerned that a number of the other constituencies throughout the northwest, who were not as far progressed as erm er as Greater Manchester West, and we took it upon ourselves to erm When appointing returning officers to those constituencies, to recommend to those returning officers that the people guiding Manchester Central, Merseyside East, Merseyside West, whoever they may be, contact John er for advice on how to how to run the er how to run the election. Cos it really has been extremely well managed, extremely well run, er not by me I've just received the ballot papers. Er the work has been done by John er Norman, Bob and the team. And to th for for them we're extremely er I I I I give my regards and er the regional party is grateful for their work. Erm in counting the ballot papers erm there was a clear winner, er both on the postal ballot re votes received, and the erm erm erm vote this evening. Er and that winner was Frank , I got it wrong anyway. so congratulations Frank, and for er from my point of view as regional vice chairman, I would like to also thank John, er for for taking part in this process, it's very important. And you clearly had an extremely good choice tonight, and a real choice. Hear hear. Yes er I'd like to thank everybody for coming along, and I've I've said to John , Oop. I said that if he wins If he wishes er a reference I'd be prepared to give him one any time. Hear hear. I mean I I think he put up a very good show and er I know it's very disappointing to lose, isn't it? Most of Lot of us have lost a lot of times, but So I thank you again. I just er say one thing, er people accuse me of being a money mad er but erm I m But i must say we're now the great chance, one of the Great chances that we have next June, in my mind, is the Post Office will put the let er Our pamphlets through every letter box in eight constituencies, Well I'd think they'd have to be good, they er er at Bolton at the General Election, they put Bolton Southeast through a lot of Bolton West and Northeast but never mind. And into Radcliffe, you got some of b b Message was taken into Berry South with our Dennis on it. Well done Dennis. And er but we need the money to put the pamphlets through all those letter box. Three hundred thousand, total three hundred thousand. A penny each. We've had a cu We've had a first time they've erm quote at two thousand one hundred and seventy six pounds. That's point seven three two five one or something like that. But er They're pamphlets so, that's that is the next target. Er I'd like to thank now. They've they've sent, we have a bank account, the first thing we did was to o This is the steering committee. Open a bank account. And er when I went along to certain banks, they were asking as much as ninety seven pence a transaction. So that means if Mrs Old Mrs brown down the road gives us a pound, we'd get a whole thruppence. Er if we put it in. So erm the the task is to er is to get the money er and to be able to put one pound er it's it's to everybody's benefit, isn't it? It's it's part of the high profile that will er will You know you don't have to walk. We n we will need folders and counters to put them all in piles, yes the lady volunteered now, take her name. Er so thank you for coming and don't forget the candidates and and Thank John personally for for for being such a very good er candidate in in this erm hustings, er but don't leave the candidates to to You must fee The people in Salford and Eccles and in er Worsley, who get the Manchester Evening News,Er It's it's that they they put lo there's local issues isn't there? Y I mean local Manchester Evening News issues that they put out in they put out where where we live in Kearsley, there's a lot of people in Kearsley buy the Manchester And er we've got to feed the candidate with all these things so that it gets into the into the Your local newspaper, the local free paper goes out in every area, you must get the name in as from tomorrow. And he said it, I heard him say, as from tomorrow Give them your phone number Frank. You'd better have his mother's as well. Cos that's where he'll Up to about seven o'clock. So thank you for coming. And thank John for being such a good er candidate. And erm Oh yes er tt Th there's a Bye-election so would. Yeah. Erm I had a phone call just before I came out,area area party, so this'll come It's about actually in the ward which we narrowly missed getting last time just by erm not even a very strong The by election is on September twenty third and we want leafleters this weekend, so if anybody is able to go on leafleting , which is right between It's er I've got the phone number for Forgot the surname but she works with Bob, so if you ring up and say this Is that Linda who works with Bob. It's . Ad she wants at least sixteen leafleters this weekends . Right. Well I suppose the way to stop is to thank you for your your attendance and declare the meeting closed. Thank you very much. Very good. Well done John. . Hello, how are you? what can I do for this lady today? Well the insurance line's due today. You due a line today? Yeah. Time flies doesn't it? Oh. Time fairly belts in doesn't it? Mm. Mm, it's the thirteenth of . There we are, scallywag. Right. That'll keep you right with that. Now Now, while I'm here. I've had a bit of trouble with this ear again, it's been kind of sore on and off, and down my neck. you been doing to yourself now? Aye, it's been . Coming to bits. falling to bits now. Coming to bits. Let's have a look at you. married ten years ago,. That's a story, that. Lot of wax in it, right enough. I think probably some trouble with that. . It's not the wax that's doing it. You're full of catarrh. Mhm. Right. I've really been feeling very very low. Well, let's get Exceptionally tired. Feeling dizzy, taking dizzy spells and my nerves are frazzled. And my mother died not long before Christmas, and I thought I was doing fine. I was great over Christmas. About four or five weeks ago, just completely collapsed. My nervous system shot to pieces. Oh right. Bubbling, crying, Let's turn you into a human being. Oh. I thought I was doing well, I thought this is marvellous, here's me manag managing to get through Christmas. It's amazing You know really do you know, as if I think I blanked out. I really think I er Ah, but I subconsciously blanked out. That's what you do when you know you've got to get through something like Christmas. You think so? Yeah. Oh aye. Oh aye. Oh, it's a nightmare. I do, I think that's really finished me off. It sounds terrible, so depressing, but I really feel, I can't get a spark in me. I feel I'm I don't even want to talk to people. Just, just, just go home and go to bed. Aha. And even if I go to bed I can't sleep. Aye. That's right. And I don't want to talk to people. I feel so anti-social all of a sudden. Right, let's get you going. Let's get you turned into a human being. Get me something to get me Oh, I know, it's dreadful. My son's getting married in June and everything, and I feel this way in June. Oh you'll be, be as right as rain by that time. You think so? Yes. Oh aye. We'll have you back to your normal self. I mean, anybody says boo to me, I'm bubbling. Aye. That's right. Oh well, we'll stop all that. I've not been bad for a long long time. We'll stop I'm usually not too bad at keeping a grip on myself. Sometimes too good. Well, Keeping thing to myself I think that's we'll, we'll get you turned into a human being without any problem at all. Okey-doke. But er we'll see you in four weeks. See how you're doing. Four weeks? Four weeks. Yeah. You'll have to give me ano And your I s your line won't be due, but I t Aha. I want to see that you're coming along alright. Right. Ready for this wedding. Okay. Okay then.. Och away. it's terrible that, and I thought I'll be looking forward, this is the last one you see, this is my youngest. Peace and quiet after that. Aye. For a for a wee while. For a wee while, yes. For a a wee while . Right, Right. is it four weeks then I'll come back and see you? See you in four weeks, yes please. Right, thanks a lot doctor. Bye. Right, bye now. Anybody been here before? No. Okay, excellent, so you don't know what's going to happen ? No? Okay brilliant. Well what do you think ARC stands for then? Have you been told this? No. Say that again? Okay. It's archaeological's the first word. Well the second two Resource centre. resource centre okay. Archaeological Resource Centre. So what do archaeologists actually do then? Any idea? Yes,. Look for bones and things. Pardon? Look for bones and that. Look for bones, okay. What else do we look for? Erm old things from the Romans. Ro Rom Roman stuff, okay. What kind of things do you think? We've got we've got bones is one good one. Yeah? Bowls. Bowls,potter pottery yeah. pottery's another one. And what's another one? Coins. Coins maybe. Fossils. Fossils, that's really palaeotology, that's to do with dinosaurs and that kind of thing. We're involved with people, okay? ? Well china, pottery, bowls all the same kind of thing. Buildings, brilliant. Okay they're the main three. We've got pottery, we've got bones, we've got buildings, okay. So you might want to remember that when you get in there cos on the first exhibit you're gonna t have to use that bit of information. Okay. Right what other things do you think we might dig up? They're the main three. We've had coins as one. What else? Think of some everyday things that you probably don't even think of. Pardon? Okay maybe. What else? . Weapons. Weapons possibly, depending on what period . Clothes. Clothes, brilliant. Okay we find quite a few clothes bits of leather, shoes, stuff like that, okay. That's another exhibit that's gonna be in there, you'll be able to have a go at making a shoe. Right. Okay, we've got these three kinds of building these materials, okay. We've got bones, we've got pottery and we've got building material. Right what do you think happens to them once we've found it? We've dug it out the ground. What's the next thing that's going to happen to it. Yeah? Clean them. Clean them, okay. What with? Brush. A brush and what else? Well w we've got the we've got the the object, we've got a brush what kind of liquid thing? Are we gonna use bleach or what? water. Water, okay. Brush and water that'll do. Okay, right so we've cleaned it, now what we gonna do? put it in . Yeah we're gonna have to dry it first, okay. We've got a wet wet object. . Right okay. At the moment we've got these piles of washed finds here. We've got building materials, shells, bones all sorts all mixed together. What do you think we might do before we send it off ? Sort them out okay. And that's what you're gonna do as soon as you get in there, that's your first activity. You're gonna be given Toby because they're late they'll have to miss the video. Oh. Right well okay. Cos the other group are here already, they're here on time. Right-oh. So erm We'll the talk's nearly finished anyway. Okay. Okay. Right, sorry about that. Right, okay, we've sorted them out. That's what you're gonna do, you're gonna be given a pile full of bits of rubble, shells, all sorts, and you've got to sort them out to different piles. Okay? Right. So what happens after we've sorted them out? So we've got a pile of bones, a pile of building material,lumps of wood, what do you think we might do to them next? Okay yeah, we might preserve them. And then what? We've got thi we've got these this lump of bone okay, we don't know what it is, what we gonna do with it? Okay. We might study it,but more likely ? Do you think people who are digging all these bits up are going to know everything about all the things they've dug up? Yes. Well they might not because there are people I mean like me students who might not. Okay so what what who do you think we could send them to to tell us what we want to know about them? Where could we send them? We could send them off to a university or something like that so the . Okay? Right, so we do that, send it off. And so we get this thing back erm and we find out it's a sheep bone and it's from about the age of the Vikings. What can we tell from those two bits of information? It's old. It's old, yeah. Okay. It's an animal. It's from an animal. It's from an animal. But more importantly we can tell the Vikings had sheep, okay? So I mean from a couple of bits of information we could tell they had sheep, they probably ate them,teeth marks on it, things like that. Okay. Right. If you want to How many have we got here? If you get into threes I think. How how many have we got altogether? I think there's too many to do the actually er Well if we get them into threes Toby . and then the rest can do Yeah. Right. Welcome to the Archaeological Resource Centre. Sorry about the delay,but the the school in front of you were nearly half an hour late. Thank you very much for turning up on time. Now so welcome to the ARC. Now the ARC A R C. What does that stand for? Who can tell me? Yeah? Archaeological Resource Centre. Archaeological Resource Centre, yes, good. Now I'm somebody now I'm gonna pretend I don't know anything about this. I probably know what resource means and what centre means, what does archaeology mean? find things study them . We find things that we study yes. What sort of things? Where do you find these things? Underground, good, yes. And how do we find them? Yeah? can dig down. We can dig down to find them, yes, good. Now some archaeologists dig down to find things, others study things that are above ground. Things like this building. Now you were standing over the road for five minutes unfortunately, but I hope during that time some of you used your eyes. What sort of building was it before it became a museum? A church. Yes, good. Which part of the church are we in now? Which part of the church? What's up here? Can anybody see? Yeah? The tower. Yes, good. We're in the bottom of the tower so, what do you think that was? That's right, yes. That's a door, you go through the door there, there's a staircase that goes upstairs. Now we can't let you go upstairs but later on you'll see the room up above here and you can see where that goes to. Yes good. So the reason I asked that question is because I wanted to see if you were already thinking like an archaeologist. Cos an archaeologist is somebody who looks for clues. Like that clue. Anything else that you noticed when you were on the other side of the road? Yes well the rest is all modern cos this used to be a church but then it was turned into a museum, it's now a museum. You can see some of the old things. When you're inside there if you look right at the far end you'll see one of the old windows, a beautiful old window that's five hundred years old. So keep your eyes open when you're going through. Good. So. Now some of the archaeologists dig, some look at old buildings like this, but there's lots of other jobs that archaeologists do. So what we've done we've made a film just to show you all the different jobs that archaeologists do. And some of you'll be quite surprised at some of the things you'll see. Right so any more questions before we see the film? Good. Now when the film's over I've got one or two more questions to ask you so I want you to watch very carefully and listen very carefully as we go through the film. Well it's good. Right. S so apart from digging and researching and looking at old buildings, what other jobs do archaeologists do? Yes? yes? Yes, good. They do. Er they put the pieces back to where they used to be. You saw in fact the lady as you came in about the same time as you came in who does that. Put the pieces back to make the pots. Yes because we very rarely find a whole pot. Usually what's happened is somebody's been doing the cooking, dropped the pot on the floor, and all the pieces have been thrown away. And one of the jobs we're gonna give you to do we're gonna give you one little piece of a pot and a picture and you have to try and work out which pot that the little pieces came from. Yes good, that's one thing we do, put the pieces back together again. Yeah? Yes, good. They look at them through microscopes just to find out what they're made of. Yeah? Yes, take pictures and draw sketches. Yes good, cos everything that we do has to be very careful recorded and taking the photographs and doing the the drawings and sketches that's one of the ways of recording. How else do we record? Now there was a lady who was working in the site and she was doing this with her hand. What was she doing? Yes? Yes, good. She had a computer actually on the it was on the side of a surveying instrument, so she was probably working out how far down she'd actually dug by looking through the sights and reading the numbers and then she was entering up the numbers on the computer. Yes, good. Now also on the site working there was a man kneeling down like this,and he had a black beard, Don't haven't got the question yet. And a trowel and he was trowelling away. What did he have on his head? Yes? He had a helmet called a hard hat. Does anybody know why? Yes? Cos something might fall on his head, yes, and he's also he's working on a building site and that's the normal regulations. Safety rule regulations have to have a hat on your head. Now as he was digging he was finding things. What was he doing with the things that he was finding? Yes, good. Well it wasn't actually a box. Did anybody notice what was it? It was a? No. Somebody else was doing the washing. What he was putting them in a? It wasn't a bucket. It was a tray, a black plastic garden seed tray that we call a finds tray, and all then things he was finding he was putting them in there. Now at the end of the day the finds trays come here and all the finds are washed and dried, and there's somebody called a finds assistant. A find assistant's job is to sort them out into different types of materials. That's gonna be your first job here today as archaeologists. Right we're going to give you a tray and ask you to sort the finds out. They're all things that have been found in York. Right, are there any questions before we start? Yeah? Yes, good. A R C is superimposed into the film. Yes, good, fine. Any other questions? Now when you go through most of the things that you will see you can touch, but there are things up on the shelves at the sides and we put them there for special reasons, usually cos they're very heavy or cos they might break easily. Now if you want to see something that's up on a shelf at the side, ask one of the helpers wearing a red jersey and they'll take it down for you and show it to you. If you get stuck, anything you don't understand, anything you want to know, ask somebody with a red jersey and if they know the answer they'll tell you. Right, if they don't they won't. Now upstairs there are people working, so when you get to the far end we ask you don't go straight upstairs, if you can wait please and we'll we'll we'll all you'll all go up in the room together,. Right so how many have we got altogether? Thirty one. Thirty one. Okay. But we're in er groups of five . So for the first activity you'll need to be in twos or threes. So what I'm gonna ask you to do in a minute is to line up in threes. So if I can just come through here. I think there might be a parcel for you at the door is it? For me? It's from . Yeah that's it. That's right. Okay step back. Yeah. Right I'll tell you in a minute. Right. Sh. Right. Now if you look in front of you you'll all see little a green tray with lots of objects. a lot of the people that work here are archaeologists and for the day we want you lot to pretend that you're archaeologists as well. Right, can you do that? Right now the first job that we want you to do is to help us to sort out some of the things . Now sometimes when archaeologists carry out the work they have to get in and out of a site really quickly. Now all they have time to do when they're working on the site is to put them in the trays and wash them. So you can see that none of these have got any mud on them or anything like that. Now if you all want to pick one object from the tray. Right. Now tell me what what you've got one at a time, starting at this end. Yeah? Bone. Yeah? No not stone. We call that we classify that under building material. Bone, yeah? Yeah? Bone, yeah that's right. Do you what that is? Bone, that's right. Shell, that's right. Pottery, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Bone yeah. Bone. Pottery, that one. Yeah. Bone. Building materials. Bone. Bone. Yeah. Yeah, well done. That's right. Right. Now quite a lot of you picked a piece of bone didn't you. Right. picked pottery, some of you got building material, this lad here and someone round there, right, and a couple of you picked a piece of shell. Now they're the four things that you'll find in your tray. So do you want to take e each object out one at a time and then put it on the table in the categories so you've got one pile of bones. No that's a piece of tooth. Yeah that's right. Right now listen. Stop what you're doing a minute. Right. Now if you look in your tray you'll see a label with a number on. Right? Now it's quite important this label, and I want you to copy down this number onto one of these labels, one for each category. Now before you do that, Don't do it yet. I want I'm gonna explain what this number is, right. Now if you look at the first four figures there, does anybody want to have a guess at what those first four figures mean? Yeah? When they found them. That's right, that's the year the excavation took place. Now does anyone have want to have a guess what the next number might mean? Now it's nothing to do with the day or the time or the months or the week or anything like that. Yeah? No. No. Yeah? Yeah. No. No. No. No. No. Right. Yeah. No. Yeah. No. Right well I'll tell you . I've got I've got one. Yeah? No. I've been having some quite intelligent guesses but no one 's hit the nail on the head. This is the number of the site. cos each site has a number and could you have a guess at how many excavations ? Yes? More than seven. This one's number seven and this one was in nineteen eighty eight. Ten. More than that. More than that. a guess? More than nineteen. Yeah. More than er twenty two. Yeah? No not that many. Yeah? Higher. Yeah? Yeah? That's right. Not far off a hundred sixty. Well done. Right. Now what about the number in this box then? The first number there of the two. Now the last number is the number of the site, any ideas what number that might be? Right something that nobody's said yet, so I'll give you a bit of a clue. When you when archaeologists carry out the dig they don't dig up the whole site. Now what do they do? Yeah? Er do they put them into boxes ? Not not quite. Do they have a special kind of ring round Well I don't think anyone's gonna get this so I'll tell you. When you dig when you carry out the digging on the a site you dig trenches. Right? So they dig a trench right down and this is the number of the trench. Then the last number, which someone said earlier, is the number of the layer in the ground. Right. So do you want to copy this number down onto one label for each category and then put them into a bag and then But before Now wait a minute, wait a minute. Now before before you put them into the bag I will check them, right? Yeah just out all those numbers on there. Right. So that's a fish's backbone a vertebra, so that would go in there. What's that? Excuse me is this your group here or No, no I'm There is a nearer one to you there. This is for real, this is a bit of real archaeology. they really do get used. It's from a stone age and it's between four and five thousand years old. Guess what it is. It's not a rock. Well it was it is rock but it it was something else, it was a bone. No a f a fossil is something that's been turned to stone in the ground. You're thinking of a fossil as being an ammonite a curly one, yeah. But that's a a fossil is anything that's turned to stone. That's three quarters of a million years old. And the animal it was from would have stood about the height of that balcony. Well you find them in Africa and India these days. No. An elephant. That's from a prehistoric elephant. They were colossal animals. The mammoth you mean? Yeah. No that's a warm . A mammoth was a cold climate. That's from a warm climate. Mammoths were around till fairly recently That's right. It comes from real bees. You know when they make honey? They make a honeycomb out of wax? Do you see that? Well when we take the honey away and we get the wax left over we can make it into lumps. and if you'd just like to try try it on. at one end put the thumb down put it on the wax and put the thumb over the top and pull pull it along. Like that. Well done, that's right. So you're catching the right amount of wax onto the outside of the thread. Isn't that good? And then in the air it stiffens very slightly as it cools down, but I think on a nice warm day like this is might be . So you've you've got a slightly stiffer end which gum gums it together, so it doesn't . now you do some lacing . Can you see them? Do you think you can follow those? Mm I think if you try and do it here, so you make it into a shoe shape, you curl it all up into a shoe shape, where do you think it's going to go? There, it is, that's right. Ah. It's a sort of That's right push it through the hole and catch it at the other side. That's right, yeah. You've got it. Aha. And you can just pull it so that it flattens. That's right yes. And then you have to pull it pull it tight. Aha. Nearly right. And then if you pull it together it'll pull together. Follow me all the way round and we have Emma here who is erm who Just keep on flooding round everybody and have a tray each. Erm So everybody just come round to here. . Yeah. Okay. Now we will run out of trays so if the people who haven't got a tray would like to go on. If I could just introduce for you, this is Emma who is a erm experienced archaeologist who's with us on a three-month placement, and she will take people through this . If there's anybody who can't fit in here, there are one or two places round here, we you can er flood onto these activities here to start off and then swap round back again. So over to you Emma. Has everybody got er a tray or sight of a tray ? Right. Okay Well and you've seen the video so you'll be aware of the sort of things that we do here. And this is an introduction to look really you'll experience of the work of archaeologists. And it's these finds in the trays are actually real archaeological finds from real sites in York. And they're what we call bulk finds. Er they're the sort of things that if you were if you were digging on a site you'd find these every day, you'd find an awful lots of them, er and they're really what the people of the time think of as rubbish. You know broken pot, throw it away. They're but we do . So in these trays you've actually got erm quite a variety of of material. You've got pottery, you've got building material such as tile lumps of plaster around somewhere as well, erm shell, bone, all sorts of things, okay. So what actually happens, these are taken off-site and they're washed but they're not sorted. And this is the first job that we have to do really, is to sort them out into their different categories. So you can just sort of take them out and put them on your desk, all the bone erm all the pottery . I'll just tell you about this Can I just tell you about this just for a minute? Cos this is quite this is quite important, okay. Right. If you just pick up a sherd of pottery, okay, that really by itself can't tell you an awful lot. I mean we can say what it's made of and we might be able to make a guess at how old it is. But if you don't know where it's come from it really isn't as much use. That's where these labels come in, okay. Now these actually each each tray should have one and they actually tell you where the stuff comes from. So here the first number, in this case nineteen eighty nine, is the date that the site was dug. Okay. The next number is the site code. in this case it's number four. Erm all the all the sites are are given a code what that that one actually is. Now this next number in the box is the layer number. Okay, so we know exactly where these things come from. So then you we can tighten in on the site to not only a place actually on the site but how far down they came from as well. When y when you're dealing with seventeen feet of strata as in York, you n you need to know where it's come from . Okay. So I'll tell you I'll tell you what to do with those in a minute but if y at the moment if you'd just like to have a go at sorting it out. If you've got any questions please ask me, I'll try and answer them. When you've finished sorting them into their piles, the next job is to put each pile into a separate bag, so that you would put all your bones into one bag, all your pottery into another. So these are now ready to go off to the specialists, okay. So what you have to do then Sh. Sh. Sh. Hang on. Sh. Sh. Sh. Sh. Hush. Right. Okay can you all I'm sorry I was talking to the study group. Did you all get the bit the bit about ? No. No No. No? Alright okay. Erm when you've finished sorting them out into their little piles, if you'd like to then put each little each pile into a separate bag, so all your bones would go into one pile er one bag, erm all your pottery into another bag, and then this is where the label comes in. This is wh this is where the label is important. Because for each bag could you Can we take them home then with us? write a copy Don't think so. of the label, okay so that we can actually and put it actually in the bag, so that when these things go off as they would do to their to the the various specialists who actually know more about pottery know more about bones and can do a more detailed analysis, still know where they're from. Okay? You're gonna trust me to do this? . Now now if I can say a little bit about the building to you. The er buil the building is erm the oldest fabric here is the tower, erm which from the er window the style of the tracery is clearly fifteenth century in origin. And also the main east window is also fifteenth century. Now much of the rest of the stone of the building also dates from the medieval period but in fact in the nineteenth century the building er was very popular as a church and the vicar at the time decided that what he needed was more space and so they knocked down virtually the whole building apart from the tower and the east erm erm window and rebuilt it to put in the er gallery at the level that we're standing here. So and you can see this quite clearly if you look at the arches. You see that arch there? That is an is an original height of the arch cos that arch is keyed into the main arch of the tower. But if you look at the next one you see the arches er all the the other arches are have been raised about er a metre, and that was done deliberately to get the extra height on the outside wall so that they could put erm a er er higher roof in for the the knave and for the the aisle so that they could ge make it a bigger space. So as a result of that because it's been erm changed in the nineteenth century the eighteen forties and eighteen fifties, architectural historians who we who were faced with a real problem with York cos York had something like fifty medieval churches and erm er about thirty of them surviving into into the twentieth century, erm and they had to make some decisions about which ones to preserve and which ones to let go. And this building was one that was allowed to deteriorate because of all this Victorian change. But for us as archaeologists it's a er it's wonderful because it shows change and that's what archaeology is all about, the the influence of humans on place or landscape or or whatever it may be wherever you are. So it's a particularly wonderful thing for us. And now that we've started to look after the building we've actually discovered some very exciting and interesting small clues about the building. If you look up there for example, can you see the row of heads supporting the beams, Yeah. there and on the other side? Well they're they're those those are from the the style the art style of the heads they are very highly dateable. They're quite clearly twelfth century in date, they're Norman like er er William William the Conqueror, that sort of kind of period. Twelfth century eleventh twelfth century date. And that's a table that would originally have been placed outside, and those heads are basically designed to scare away evil spirits. But what er what happened is when they rebuilt this building in the fifteenth century the masons found these and reused them reset them inside because they'd lost their significance in over the three hundred years, so but they were useful structural er things. So that shows su suggests that there's twelfth century fabric in this building. And there are other clues. If you look very carefully at the stones you can see erm can you see that some of the stones have got diagonal markings all over them? Mm. Okay? And if you if you compare those diagonal markings with the sorts of markings on on er some of these other stones, these these are a bit diagonal but if you look carefully they go there're some going in that direction and some are going that direction. The tooling on on stones changes through time as as masons change their techniques, and er this is fifteenth century tooling, but that is twelfth century tooling. If you er you have to get up close to look at these features carefully, but it shows very clearly that there's a lot of twelfth century stone incorporated in the building. And that all if you put this together with the documents that we know, it suggests that there was a twelfth century church here which was demolished and then rebuilt in the fifteenth century. And in fact there are even more subtle things than that you can find if you look carefully at Oh I might er I think that we might go out into the garden and I'll show you one or two other features out there that are er even more er interesting and er er exciting. But anyhow have you if you have a look here there's erm er the er er I think we ought to be thinking about er Yeah. er moving on. Do you think that is about right? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So if you'd like to go down the stairs there there are some coats oh your coats and things and I will er go and come and join you and we'll we'll take off and look at the outside . If I may ask you about the window? Oh sure. rebuild er every fifty or a hundred years or whatever? N no I don't think so. I think these these are fifteenth century. I think they're fifteenth century they they they they are they're well cut and they're well The g the glass? Er the glass the glass itself is replacement. Oh sorry, the glass itself is replacement. There but there are some traces of fifteenth century glass up there. Do you see the little coloured arrows in those? Those are fifteenth century glass. That survives . Glass will survive. What happens is that although it does tend to decay it builds a crust on the outside that stops it eroding. So you will be looking at er glass erm here and elsewhere that is really very ancient. Not no not well you know just like ordinary glass. I mean it's it's a fairly fairly imp er er permanent material. You can get Roman glass for example Roman glass f erm pottery erm glass vessels erm which are incredibly thin, the the glass is as thin as light bulbs, and that survives erm two thousand years. So we're only asking for five hundred years. Oh does it? Oh you do you work in it do you? Oh right. Yeah . Okay well I'll well I'll just get my coat and come with you. huge number of people died in childbirth and in er as infants. A lot of women dialled giving died giving birth Childbirth? erm but there were er a small number of people who managed to make it to good old healthy seventies eighties. But there is er not not many. Right We've a a man with a bicycle trying to get through so er I think if you if you That's alright. come through on the grass that okay? Oh yeah that's Have we got everybody? I noticed there a young man what's he called Richard is he? No,. Patrick? No. Robert? Mike? Michael. Michael. Mike. Michael. Michael. He's he's not come yet so erm Perhaps while while we're waiting for the others I'll just say a few words about the building, because erm from out here you can see er quite clearly that the central portion of the building is the oldest erm from if you look at the state of the stonework. Er particularly if you look just at the ordinary wall fronts the front wall the stones are very much more heavily eroded there than they are on this this the aisle here. And er if you look also at the way that the stones fit together they're ve they fit together very neatly on the aisle where by the small window whereas the central part of the church there's much more mortar between the joints. So those are very good indications for for later building. But there is in fact a very interesting er story archaeological story which we can deduce from the outside of this building. And I'd like to erm try and get you all to see what you can tell by simply observing the building, and I'd like to concentrate if we may on the central part of the building, because there are a number of changes that have been made to that building erm which tell a story. And one of the things that archaeologists do all their time is try by looking at the evidence, whether it's stuff that comes from the ground, landscapes or old buildings, to try and understand the changes that have happened through time, to see things that were there that have gone, and to to work out what in the erm Victorian period the stone was far so far rotted they inserted some new stones there. Yeah? Anything else, yeah? Little holes in That's excellent. Why do you think they've got those little chips in them? To plaster over? Plaster over, brilliant. Now that's a very important clue that you've spotted. Brilliant. Now what I want you to do No this is getting very exciting to me. I'm ve I this is the first time it's happened this way round that anybody's got That's the most subtle clue and somebody's spotted it. I think it's wonderful. So what I want you to do is to follow these little chips er dimples here, they're on this stone there're a few on that but not on here, so that bit it goes in that direction. They're on here, they're on here, a few there, they're up there, but they don't go any higher than that. I'd like you to look along and see if they go to that line and stop and they g you can see some over here. See how far you can trace them along there. See how far you can go. See how far. How far do they go? Come on, how far? Here, yeah and h how far along? Three. Oh No. How fa how far how far up do they go? What's the highest you find them? Up to the window. Okay, up to there. So o so there was once a plastered surface across there, okay? Was it painted? Er it may have been but you can't we haven't got much evidence for that. Er er well that that bit you're go you're jumping too fast. Now what other changes are there? What other changes? Er er let's erm Have a look at this here, look at this here. Smoothness. What? The smoothness. Smoothness, yeah, yeah so that's a new stone, there's a very new stone. That was we put that one in in about nineteen eighty six that one. Erm but this this this doorway, does this doorway look as though it's always been here? No. Why not? Cos the stones are sm are are little there while If you look at the w if you look around the windows you'll always get a drip course. This has not got a drip course, you know? You look even over there on that building there's above the window there's a drip course, by the doorway, is a drip course for the rain coming down dripping off. Oh yeah! This has not got a drip course. Okay? And if you also look the most the the the clearest change that's happened on the outside of this building, if you look at that window, if you if you follow the edge of the window the original window came all the way down to this point, and then across and up, and this has been all blocked up. Okay? So and this doorway has been inserted that close to the corner of the window. That's you know any any architect'll tell you that's just wild, that's just ridiculous, it's very dangerous to put a doorway so close to the corner of a window. You have much more maintenance. So what we know is that this must have been blocked up before this doorway was inserted, okay? So what you have got here is an a blocked up window an inserted doorway and a plastered surface. Now if you can put all those three pieces of evidence together what does that suggest to you? H er why would the people want to do that in a church? Plaster an outside of a wall with no so er with no drip course so this must have been an? This must have been an internal wall at one point. There was a room out here? Exactly. Exactly. There was once a vestry built out here, and er this doorway was put in so that the vicar could get into the vestry to change his clothes. And that building has gone. It's no longer here. But by looking at the clues of the building we can see that it was there. And that's the sort of thing archaeologists are doing all the time. That's what we're trying to do all You know that's that's that's just our job, that's how we're we're looking at buildings. Now what is particularly interesting is if you take that and you try and date when these various things were done, and if I ask questions why was it done like this. And it was done like this, this was done at a period when this church was changing from a Roman Catholic church The the window the original glass in this was a massive stained glass window of the crucifixion, and that had been put there in the fifteenth century by a Lord Mayor of York who was very wealthy and very religious and he wanted to show how wealthy and religious he was by pu er donating this window to the church. But England ceased to become a Catholic er country and we had the Reformation and the emphasis changed from people looking at these spectacular coloured windows to learn about the Bible bec er and people started to read, literacy came in. And the whole style in churches changed. They started to put up big screens behind the altar blocking off some of the stained glass and writing on those big screens the Creed or the Lord's Prayer in English, which was done in the seventeenth and eighteenth century. And that was the time when this was all done. So the archaeology of the building and the architectural history are reflecting big changes in what people were thinking, how people were erm what they believed their belief systems. But erm and it's all here for us to see,if you have the eyes and the detective and the persistence and the research to pick all these little details out. And so that I hope that I hope you find that interesting. But the plastered wall's been inside? Yes, exactly. This was a this was plastered so it'd be be a ni nice inside wall for inside of the vestry. And this this we see, it's er quite interesting, this you notice this bit here is not plastered, and this has not got these dimples, so we think that what actually happened is when they first did this the the the the this bit of the window was blocked up with wood or wattle and daub or something like that, and so it was a a a and then when then when the vestry came down this these stones were put in here to block it up again. So this is that's why these don't have the dimples on them, whereas they should have done if they'd You see so there's al there's incredibly subtle things that you can you can pick up. Now I wanted to tell you a little bit too before we leave about one of the ARC publications that may be of interest to those of you who are self-propelled. Erm we've produced a little guide called the Time Traveller's Guide to York, which consists of four archaeological walks of the city. And erm each one begins here at the Archaeological Resource Centre and takes you through alleyways and back passages explains, where to go er with drawings text and explains it all. One of the Romans city, so you can pick out some Roman traces, one of the erm the er er Viking city, one of what happened in the Norman period the eleventh century, time of William the Conqueror and the two castles and the big er erm abbeys he put up, and finally the medieval city. And this you can purchase for two pounds ninety nine from here or lots of other shops. I thought I'd give you that opportunity cos it is a little ARC publication, it's one that we er So so if you want it. So I I've got that with me but I've what what what we'll do now is we'll start to erm make our way towards coffee, which I think might be welcome. Er er am I right? you c you couldn't be more right. Okay, let's er this way then. Okay. Clearly one of the issues we've got though, is t we're looking at something like million pound overspend in C I S for the calendar year ninety three which we've gotta try and pull back, at least some of that. We worked out yesterday that probably the overspend in er client services could be between a hundred and eighty two thousand and half a million, not four hundred depending on which scenario you take. Erm the worst scenario takes into account things like erm whacking in another two people in claims, another four in E W S erm i if you go along with the the current situation on volume increases erm and er the simple choice on those is you either pay pay to cover the service levels or you let the service level deteriorate. Mm. Erm but I mean that's forecast for erm more or less now if the volumes stay as they are, so that's an issue. Erm we've also got an issue with erm the post cock-up and that's a technical term you're laughing at are you? Erm cock-up two people to go to John , erm because erm, apart from anything else it was agreed John 's arm was twisted yesterday to take two people and g and the work but the issue is is that the K doesn't, the issue is is that there is no budget anywhere for it either here or down in John's area. And the reason being is that somebody thought that John was taking the work without having to take people, which he can't do. So John's now taking it on the basis that he takes budget with it so So they are going? Yes they will be going. Ah I mean right Mary'll take them all now Yeah, unfortunately erm Does that mean Richard as well from upstairs or Russell, whatever his name is? Russell Russell Ah I don't know if Russell's going, I mean that's something for them to sort out upstairs. Yeah th they were the two people, it's our two part-timers plus Russell. Oh well that's what it is then, yeah. Yeah okay. But you'll need to sort that out with Mary when she's back, she's not back till after Easter anyway. So when's that happening? Well I'll leave that problem for Mary to sort out. But it, we don't save any money from doing that now anyway. In fact we lose money either way. Erm so that's,tha that that's now been done. Erm now potentially, if you totted up, and there's also the data integrity the other reports, which is the sixty K overspend we talked about, now the question is do we spend that, do we spend that this year, what do we do? Now Sorry what reports are they? Well Phil knows what they are. Well we've we're gonna spend it now anyway. No I mean I've started giving reports out to the sections already Yeah I, I know but Is that units? Units reports? Yeah Yeah. on the data correction exercise. Yeah. Oh But the, the question is until you've fixed them they'll stay in in exclusion right? Yeah. Right, so you fix them just as quickly as you can fix them, but if that takes nine months it takes nine months, that's one of the views you can take on it. Yeah. Erm the issue is is that potentially you could be goi we could've been going for four point three extra people and we probably won't do that. But the ne the ne the other issue is that erm on the Jason front, the overspend on the salary, we might well be able to adjust that down in terms of the overall salary review absorb it within that in July. Five grand across the whole we'll, we'll lose it somewhere. Oh what, the k the difference between him being an A and, and the budget being a C? Yeah. Yeah. Okay? Erm on the other side there are some definite overspends which we've got to do some more work on. Erm there's the P W P five year thing which, which we've got to erm cover for which we've covered as two F T E for the six months and then we'll need to review that after that. Erm we've got the same sort of issue with excess relief. And then there's the, the data integrity on units which is the fourteen we've already made some er nominal provision for which is Mhm quote ten quotes people moving across. Erm, in addition to that there's the erm there's the U A three stuff in the first half of this year which is fourteen people for four months, eight people for two months effectively. Erm then there's billing and collection pensions conversion, regionalization all coming in late. Erm now the impact of those is twofold, one is that we've got the overspend on the data integrity and the U A three, cos it wasn't in the budget at all. And secondly the fact that it wasn't in the budget erm and the fact that they're late means that we're not also realizing the productivity in other areas that we had anticipated so we're gonna be some six months late coming in. Now the potential overspend on the definite ones, the ones I just read out, is two hundred and eighteen thousand. But we reckon that in actual fact if you erm don't do the we just dis discount the billing and collection and the pensions conversions and so on that we will actually get some benefits from the, the, the things that we've already put in place this year, we reckon we can reduce that overspend on that side of it down to about a hundred and eighty two thousand erm because it's, it's nominal paper er transactions in a way. Erm so really the issue is we haven't made any decisions yet, these are the things we've gotta try and make decisions on, but we will need to be starting to think them before we get to June. One of the major problems we've got is that erm the w I did some figures yesterday that, that tended to suggest that in fact our productivity performance overall is about two point seven at the moment even without having had in and without having units in and so on, so we have increased our productivity, marginally, despite the fact we've got temps in and we've got those new business people. Erm Wasn't it in the budget the two point seven for the first two months? Yeah but it's now gone up to two point And increases eight. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Erm but the reality is that erm we would therefore need our budget to, in fact for the first half of this year, to have, well for the whole year, to have reflected the late delivery of the systems which would've, if we'd had that in the budget and we'd been projecting the whole budget at say two point six, our budget figure would've been somewhere in the region of another eighty to ninety thousand higher than it currently is for this first quarter. Erm so in actual fact we'd've been there or thereabouts had we not made the budget assumptions that we did. Now one of the major issues that we're concerned about of course is the overtime erm which is, if you review the last three months of the overtime which we did the other day, erm we obviously, we spent the annual budget erm allowance. One of the things that we need to, to work out, and Mark 's gonna do some work on that and, and Maureen pro primarily to identify that erm we're spending about thirty five, thirty six K a month over at the moment. Erm now there's two questions really, one is is that partly to offset the erm lack of productivity that we had anticipated in the budget. So in other words is our F T E consistent with where we actually are rather than where we thought we'd be erm or have we got erm you know er the Parkinson's law, been operating with the, the overtime, people are used to doing it and therefore they keep doing it and so on. One of the other impacts we need to work out in fact is the er effect of the overtime as being worked in quotes, by all the quotes people not just the temps, because that's gonna be a significant chunk. If those, all of those contract temps are regarded as full time people it looks like full time people are working overtime, which is why I asked you the question yesterday erm what's the overtime bill for quotes alone. Cos we've got a hundred percent hundred percent increase in volume Yeah in quotes. And th th the contract people, if they are working overtime, are, are paid the, the premium rates Oh right yeah Yeah. So it's, it's costing us Yes it is costing us, yeah. time and a half. But the point is is that for everybody else there was, there is some assumption that we'd be working off of post driven erm response, okay? So if you got more post in, or your productivity in the servicing sections is down, from two point seven it's down actually at two point six is what we're achieving, we're marginally out. But the, every hour of overtime worked in quotes is in fact an hour actually on our budget, it isn't just a pr proportion of it on our budget which is what you've got everywhere else. So No it's not entirely true cos we did have a budget for overtime Yeah but i if you're gonna go over by a hundred percent and you've got people there working overtime Yeah. significantly every hour that they do on that is gonna be signific is, is not budgeted for cos you've got fourteen people there who weren't budgeted for at all. Yeah. So when you get ten of them working overtime, and that, those ten people weren't budgeted to do any overtime. Yeah. So we need to identify to what extent the o the quotes problem erm is cau is, is skewing the figures primarily to be able to get a forecast view of, okay what's the overtime likely to do over the year? I mean as long as it, as long as the graph is reshaped rather than the massive overspend cos at this rate, we're gonna be spending out er three hundred thousand pounds over just on overtime er which we obviously can't afford to do. Erm but that's if you just progr project forward where we are cos we used up in, in three months what we should have done for the whole year so you've only gotta do that, so we've done a hundred thousand pounds this first quarter and if you've four more, three more quarters there's another three hundred thousand pounds over budget. The point is, one of my points is that two things are, are likely to happen. One is that the, the impact of quotes and the other improvements coming through in the second half of the year will reduce some of that impact anyway and also that that hundred thousand pounds overspend is sig is over-skewed because the proportion of quotes work in there is actually making a, making a difference too. But we need to know by how much. So what we're trying to do is get a picture of, okay, what's our, our best guess scenario, what the whole year's gonna look like. We should have that in a few minutes on the, the quotes side, Mark's gonna bring them in to me. Yeah okay, fine. Erm so I think we've gotta look at that right across the board though, we've gotta know that in actual fact we're covering it temporarily, erm or aren't we covering it temporarily. I think all the work that we did indicates that there the productivity is one issue, that unless you're doing the two point eight or whatever's in the budget, you know, we're not gonna get near it. But the other thing is the work that we did on, all the hours that er aren't available on the team Yeah. and that isn't gonna go away unless we No it isn't, it isn't gonna away but when you go back to these figures we've actually been working, if you wo if you accept that there's been, there's no change in our situation apart from auto-offs and units Mm primarily As from now? As from now. Well th since Right yeah since December Yeah. we should be able to maintain the performance that we've done prior to December cos everything else should be equal. Right? With Yeah or without the T As and, and all, with all the other bits and pieces. So what we need to be able to identify is that,al although we will gain the worst scenario ought to be that whatever we lose in terms of auto-off reports and units reports to some extent we should be gaining by the improved productivity overall. So let's just say it breaks even. So our performance, in terms of F T Es per thousand pound, per thousand item, should be running more or less along at the November December level. Right? Now what we've got here, if you look at the F T for ten thousand in force policies, we've got a significant jump in January and February at a time when our budget posting was down below budget. Now that's fair enough because we've actually bunged more in in terms of testing, we're covered in testing, and we've got temps who are less productive, so to an extent we, we, we, we ou our budget did expect that bump. What we should expect though is that it comes back down to around the three point five mark for the year. Now if that is true then we ought to be able to re- forecast a year getting a reasonable assessment, okay, on what's that going to do. So what I'm saying is that although there will be an overspend, it shouldn't be massive cos the overspend would effectively be the hump right at the beginning of the year. I don't think it's as simple as that because at the time that we were doing the budget, we were doing it really in September, and most of those other cate categories of work, apart from like auto-offs reports and things, weren't having an impact. And all, all the other things we've listed out that have taken up time of the team weren't being done in September. We were doing other things last year. We were doing other things. Loads of other things. I don't think I don't think simply by looking at auto- offs reports or E D S R work is going to solve our problems in time do you? But I don't I don't s No I haven't seen anything that, that actually says, suggests to me that you've got another, any other special cause between now and last autumn. Othe the only other thing that could be in there would be an increase in post, fundamentally. Which we haven't had. Which we haven't had. No. Well we might be having in, in March if eastern region's anything to go by, cos it's had a twenty four percent increase, then it might be a, a double blip, a blip under and a blip over, which would therefore f it would therefore follow that your erm your workload level is gonna be consistent. What we don't know is whether March is a start of a new trend upwards above budget, that's a different scenario cos then you can say okay, just like we talked about with claims and E W S. But if you take the, the servicing sections overall, what we should be able to say is that look okay we're gonna have a delayed kick in of improved productiv because it, productivity cos of new systems that are helping us, whether it moves us from two point six to two point seven to two point eight is arguable, and we won't know that for sure until we get there, but we shouldn't have is deterioration. I don't e I don't see any reason why we should have deterioration. Cos the work that the T As are doing now are just different projects to the one they were doing before. I mean you've had Sue, Sue for example tied up on and all those sort of issues, Bob 's been dealing with pr pension conversions and stuff like that for, for months on end, so we've been dealing with other projects, all that's happened is the work has been redirected onto a different type of project. Now we've lost a lot of resource erm in the clerical area, in this first quarter,t t to release people to go and do testing work we've taken on temps. Now the temps an and the two new business people for example have definitely had an impact on our ability to be as productive as you normally expect to be. That's why I would expect to see and we planned to some extent, we may have under-planned an increase in costs. But I don't see any reason why we shouldn't ever get back to where, to the last quarter, if you're excluding December, of ninety two. That should actually be our benchmark, I see no reason why we shouldn't be able to achieve that. Now the very simple thing is if we just stop doing this other project and get the T As back down on to, if, if we need to do that. But I don't see any reason why our that we shouldn't have the ability, as a man to making management decisions, that makes the productivity and cost profile achievable of at least what it was before Christmas. Now that's all I'm saying. Unless of course we have a significantly increased level of erm of post and then that changes the scenario quite again. Now we're planning to do a, we don't wanna do another budget, re-budget forecast until June July, we, cos it, we don't need to do one for this bu any budget year starting July, we're gonna work on the calendar year. Erm but one of the things that we, that we will need to do is actually to review the overtime for the last three months to say okay, what's it actually been spent on so that we can start to er make sure we've identified the reasons for it. If the reasons for it are accommodating the release of people to, like Pam, Lewis and Ron and people like that whom we've released, erm and the experienced temps then you can at least say when they come back then that position should revert back to the norm. So Some of that's been done though hasn't it? From what erm we did for yesterday. Mm. Some of it, things like the fax service I think which we certainly weren't doing, were we, in the last last year er review and the mechanics of the fax service we already thought that took up a lot of hours you know just putting, faxing them through, receiving them But then you, that outweighs No that ma that's saving us time the, the time wasted on phone calls doesn't it? Yeah. I mean at least when you're getting the faxes and it's being recorded as working there's an enquiry Mm we weren't convinced. When we worked it out as an average that the sheer monitoring and chasing quotes or following up quotes erm and just preparing the documentation, we weren't convinced that was the case at all. You'd expect the productivity to fall wouldn't you, if you were actually operating a fax service because you'd save, you'd take more time to monitor it Er yeah whereas the exact opposite's happened in west, the productivity on the section with the It can't. fax service has shot up, whereas the other one I think it should shoot up. operating a I do. normal service has gone down, so Mm. I don't see any reason why it, why it shouldn't do. Why it shouldn't improve it. Because A you're not wasting the time, you're not worrying about the post sort, you're getting the stuff quicker, you've got the thing logged in and logged out erm so to, to a great extent, I mean er we should be ab I personally think that we should actually s be trying s we should be expecting to see an advantage but let's just take that as as, as, as neutral so that you haven't got a er a worsening situation and you haven't taken adva taken advantage of any Mm er have any advantage in that. We're also running erm without, we must be running without or we've got a significantly reduced level of chase-ups because our turn- rounds are, in most areas, are significantly better than they were. And th and we've sustained that now for several months erm much more so than we did when we did the thing at the end of ninety one. Erm now okay I accept that erm what you're getting now or starting to get through in some areas is a higher degree of expectation, but if we're not achieving that then I think it's something to do with what we're, the way in which we're, we're operating rather than the fact that it isn't achievable. Mm. Okay? So all I'm saying is, if we're not achieving that we need to go back and look at the way in which we're operating the fax service, have a chat with erm Phil's people or Jackie's peo see if there's any differences that we can take advantage of. Are we er are we, you know, gilding the lily? If, cos if we are, we can't afford to. Yeah. It's as simple as that. Erm so I all we're trying to do now at the moment though is, is to, to operate from the point of view of saying look, if you actually take all these things into account, we shouldn't be worse than we were ultimately, once these systems have bedded in, we're doing more checking on letters for example th than, than we w we won't have to once we've checked through the first two months of auto-offs, and we're getting used to the new reports and so on and that sort of stuff, so we expect there to be a blip, but you would expect a learning curve in anyway. That's what I'm saying. So once we're through that we need to be able to say okay, if there is a significant shift in the mix of work, then we need to be able to quantify exactly what that is. Yeah. Okay? But I'd've thought that, that generally speaking, we should have been able to at least hold the line. Cos if we haven't then all of our assumptions into why we're doing things like auto-offs and it improves the outgoing costs and then we've got better reta better information and better screens and all that sort of stuff, I mean it blows every single assumption we've made in a way. You know that you've got, the fact that you can get current statements at the press of a button from July onwards, we should be able to say that means that on the teams that haven't gotta control the work going round to quotes and back again, having it typed and back again, Mm. there should be improvements in those areas. That, that should surely improve turnaround times. Which yeah which are already going down anyway It won't, it won't improve turnaround times generally speaking on the quotes area cos that's kept separate. Doesn't that affect teams? It will it will im Yeah cos improve the overall yeah. It will have an improvement but I, I think we get that almost for free. But it, well what it will do is it will actually mean that you haven't, shouldn't have to worry so much about keeping logs of what you've sent round and, and so on. Mm. So all I'm saying is that that's what we should expect to see. Now the r the truth is, what we've gotta now check out, is actually is that reality, is the reality wildly out. Cos if it is, how much are we gonna have to pay for it, and why and what can we do to try and bring it back in. And that's what we've gotta try and do in the next, next few weeks really. And monitor it very closely. Erm one interesting point about overtime and temps er generally is that temps apparently unl are costing us around about fourteen K with overheads which is a lot more than I believed to be the case. Er and Mark was saying to me yesterday Erm Mark was saying yesterday that, unless you're erm going to be getting overtime done erm by supervisors, in which case temps are cheaper, you're better off using overtime er clerical staff than you are getting temps in. So it's, if you're overtime is at the grade C level, or the workload is at the grade C level, then you're bet it's cheaper to get overtime done than it is to get temps. That's the agency temps I presume? All temps according to Mark. There will be the very few exceptions. Should we not also still go for the, if we can, the one and a half times they work Saturdays? That'll make it even cheaper, instead of double time. No well what we said is we're gon gonna scrap Saturdays unless we s consider it to be critical and unavoidable on the basis that, if they, they can work Saturdays if they'd rather work Saturdays than in the week, but that's their choice not ours But then they get pa they do it get paid for time and a half. Yeah Right. Is, that's the decision from now on is it? Well we, we're saying that now are we? Yeah, I think we should say that, well really, unless we've got anything scheduled in the next week or two, let's get them out the way Does that apply to E W S as well? We've got, we've got two in er April April. Well then let's fill in April, then I think we should actually make sure that we're comfortable that is essential and th that there is overtime being worked there that couldn't have be worked in the week. You know I mean okay talking vast I mean there's the argument I know people vary with their opinions but is it more productive on a Saturday? I think Yeah that's the way mine tend to think it's more productive on a Saturday. I think so. Mine are exactly split. Some think it's a waste of space and others think, you know, it's er Well in er I think you've gotta weigh up the p the productivity element against the cost, cost of it. cost effectiveness I think it must be easy to plan mustn't it if you know you've got that top number of hours from looking at what you've got What essentially what you need to do how to do is if you wanna be able to work Saturdays we need to be able to prove that in fact pound per, per item of post on a Saturday is cheaper than because the productivity in the week will be lower therefore and even at time and a half, the cost of doing an hour's overtime for the work you get out in the week is, is less productive than doing double time with what you get out on a Saturday. If that can be proved then we've got a case. If it isn't then what we should then be saying is no week time over no week time work and just all work Saturdays if you see what I'm getting at. If we can actually demonstrate that, but you've gotta see a significant improvement in your productivity on a Saturday to make it worth your while. But I think it does doesn't it? By the volumes Yeah Prove it. they produce. Yeah. Well we've got plans, Mark you know produced plans with productivity for Saturdays alone. In which case then we should be able to say that Saturday working costs X X pounds per item, and in the week it costs Y pounds per item. If X is cheaper than Y then you've got your case. Then you ban the weekday overtime. Is there certain work there that has to be done during the week and can't wait till the weekend? It will just come down to organization really won't it? Between the teams. Well I think it's an important issue, we need to sq we need to squeeze every, every pound out that we can if we're not to if we're not to affect our service level. But the o the one thing I wanna say is that erm we need to do all we can to keep the c the over-run down to as low a figure as possible, and that's our job. Bob's already indicated that he doesn't, he wants to do everything he possibly can to avoid us having to affect service levels okay, and obviously the overtime is the one thing that really is, stands out as being the issue anything else cos I mean our salary costs are there, there or thereabouts erm with the temps in it, erm we know we've got erm some temps. One of the issues is we're not quite sure whether we've got a change in our planned spend, which is what makes the, the comparison against budget look as bad as it currently does, or whether in fact we genuinely are gonna over-run significantly. So what does that mean with us doing with overtime at the moment then? Sorry? Cos we're, we're averaging what, two hundred hours per team per month? Mm. Well I think you, you, you've got, well you've got, if you're gonna work overtime, you've got to make sure that your productivity justifies it. That it isn't just to catch up with unproductive people. Yeah I'll ask supervisors to do everything by batch as opposed to allowing X number of hours, but then on top of that, saying alright you've got thirty hours this week Mm sure. allocate it how you want. Yeah. I think it does mean though that issues like erm long term sickness erm the issue that you've got with the two people in your patch, one of whom might go to the help desk, you need to get that resolved P D Q so you can say well I've reduced my h the temp over budget by one. Okay? So that then we can actually get somebody in there that can do the job properly. And then we'll have to deal with that other one and er and, and resolve that one way or the other and make, make sure we've done that reasonably reasonably quickly, either g sending her back to new business or er trying to find another position for her if she can't actually cope with that. Mm. Erm the J C one we'll have to try and deal with that again as a separate issue but I don't, I mean the amount of time we're losing from high levels of sickness we talked about a c couple of meetings or so ago, about the absence levels with some people, we've just gotta make sure we crack that on the head, we're just haemorrhaging money, the fact that it is not just hours it's money. We should be getting another one out soon shouldn't we, end of March? Yeah there's no reason why you can't ask Trudy for an update now, you don't have to wait for Tr for Trudy's report. If you want updates on those key individuals then let's get some. But let's make sure we, we can make, make a k key point of that. Did you do anything with the erm names we gave you for nil absence? For nil absence? No I haven't done anything with that yet. Erm we, we can do. Is that over ninety two? Well over the the Since the last calendar year from It was last year wasn't it? during ninety two. Yeah. So what are we doing on the overtime then, Saturdays, at the moment? I Are we gonna go away and work out how much it is? Yeah I think, I think what wh er you do need to have worked out in, in your own minds and justified it what your plans are in terms of u realizing the extra resource whether it be by temp or by overtime. But the w clearly, in, in budget terms, we haven't got any left for the rest of this year now clearly then we that means we're gonna overspend. The question is by how much. Now But we have to keep in mind that we're not gonna let service levels deteriorate so We don't wanna l no. But I think, but I do think it does mean that the first thing we say is that the work is more important than some of, maybe some of the, the nicer to have three year projects at the moment. And that's gonna have to be some of the things that suffer. If for example you've got a problem with productivity in your patch, erm because of the, the reasons we've talked about, it does mean that perhaps you need to say to whoever has been, is off and doing other projects that they'll have to stop doing that until you've got the productivity up till you can release them back again. I think they'll have to recognize that it's gonna be roll your sleeves up and we're go we aren't gonna be able to do all of the things we wanted to do, and that's the price we're gonna have to pay. Will that extend to things like the team reports, branch reports? I think we just make sure we deal, make those as effective as possible. And if, if, if that major issue then bring it back here and we'll make the decision okay we won't do any more till we're I think those, those were some of the things weren't they s I don't know I mean we asked Geoff about the end of month reports, you know? And they, I don't know what you'll think, but they reckon they spend at least two to three days average in the first week of the new month purely doing new reports. sounds excessive No Fax reports, C F R reports C F R reports you know by the time you add all that time up it's high. Well I did say to, to Nicholas that we would start to be looking at whether they're successful or not. Mm. Before you stop doing a C F R report you've got to prove they're a waste of time. Mm. In much the same way as we've got we've just gotta go away and do some questioning ourselves erm get amongst it an say okay can we do some of these things more effectively? If the fax is taking a l a longer time then there are some issues we need to pick up with that. But clearly we've got the charter commitments and we need to make sure we fulfil those. Erm one of the issues is going to be is whether or not we can afford to improve the level of the commitments apart from adding things as we go through. If we can't we can't, it's as simple as that. But erm I mean th th the debate yesterday was, was as, as budget issues always are I mean when you're talking about budget no matter, even in boom years you're always still talking oh we haven't got enough money erm but it was positive in the sense that it was A we're coming off the back of some good performance, and that's important to remember, and all I'm saying is there's no reason why we shouldn't be able to maintain our performance, even if we can't improve it in the next two or three months erm from, to where we actually think we should have been given that the systems come in last year. Er so what I'm looking for is to try and see that we do all we can to make sure that the second half of ninety three we take full advantage of everything that we've got so that we do actually rapidly increase our productivity in the second half of the year. And our job's gotta be to tr I, I suppose really to try and move anything that gets in the way of achieving that. If you can release a temp, then let's do that. What about the situation on claims then? You mentioned at the beginning about Well that's potentially, er no decision's been made as yet to review that budgeting exercise and I think erm that's likely to be the position for the next month or two erm so I would expect them to, to be doing their overtime levels as, as they currently are. Erm the one issue on E W S Ian is erm, there's two issues really I happened to see your draft note to me out there Oh you've seem it? Yeah. Erm you wouldn't have you wouldn't be releasing Michelle back and losing losing her to testing. Cos that's something which Jane seems to think will happen. She says she badly needs Oh you see if they want her back to testing they've gotta pay for the resource to er for us to, to, to recruit somebody else in the meantime. And whether it's Michelle we release back is another issue. I didn't name names in the thing in case anybody saw it in case you No it's up to us to, to decide how the best way to handle that is. But there is budget in the testing resource budget to be able to accommodate for cover we would then decide how best to handle that. Okay. I've got Lyn who's due to go back for a month erm end of May for most of er June, upstairs Then you should get the temp and the budget to cover it. Right. Okay? That's what their and you make sure you get it. Yeah. Okay? Erm the, the issue is to make sure that you've got people that we, that are up there and, and temps like Lawrence and so on, that we don't lose that we can actually utilize. Do we know when Michelle might be available to join E W S? I asked erm Ian yesterday to try and give me the dates so I, I'm, I expect him to come back to me today with some idea on that. It should be before Tracey goes. And what about overtime on Sa I mean at the moment some of them are working during the week and Saturdays and they need that to maintain the sort of service level that we're doing at the moment. W well the only issue for you is whether or not you can, you're in good enough control there to be able to say can you we need to be within the four to six banding, okay? Erm I think I am at the moment aren't I? Yeah Mm. you're down un down as four according to the la the last one I got. So I could let it slip slightly? Well you, you can actually cut down some of the overtime maybe, and you need to review that and that's, you need to make that decision. I've put a lid on it anyway Yeah they're not allowed to do more than ten hours each. So I then, I don't stipulate whether that's during the week though or whether that's at the weekend because I, I agree with what's been said about they're, they're more productive during the weekend cos they don't get the interruptions Mm. Mm. so but I agree, I mean you could start trying to look at it and cost it Well they don't get the interruptions in the evenings, or shouldn't do. No, I think they're more tired and it's I think it tends, tends, things tend I think you're right, they're just from the day do tend to drag on don't they? Mm. Weekends they're fresh, they're more likely to Whereas on, on Saturdays it's easier for supervisors to say okay well this day we're gonna be doing This is wha , yeah arguments In which case there's more to be said for actually not, for doing less, less in, in the week During the week yeah. even at double time so we need to check that out. If that figure's justified though then I'll bat on that basis. Cos the important thing is is not so much the number of hours as the, the, the affecting on, the effect on the cost. So what happened about time and a half? Are we still going for that? Well I told my lot to whatever they do on a Saturday, put it down on Monday and that way it'll automatically get paid at time and a half. So yours are already only being paid time and a half? Well for this Saturday onwards, yeah. done that. Well I sort of gave them a choice, do they want to nominate who does overtime or do they want to have a cat or do they want to pay, get paid less and they said they'll get paid less. I gave them a choice. We all need to be consistent I think don't you? Mm Yeah. Yeah I think you need to check out those figures first, before you make a decision on it. Cos it might be that it's more productive. But the question that mi will be raised, depending on, is why aren't we that m that productive ordinarily? Is it just because there are no interruptions? Erm that's what we need to find out I suppose. I just got these, the quotes figures here we, first three months of the year we were budgeted for six hundred and eight hours overtime and we a actually did sixteen hundred. A thousand hours? A thousand hours er i i i hundred and sixty seven hundred and seventy percent increase. Any idea what cost that is? Well it's equivalent to an another two and a half people. But that's on overtime rates so, no I don't know I haven't, well I can probably work it roughly Two and a half that's about that should be about seven or eight thousand won't it? At least. Is that, there,tha that's, that's e so that's just the extra amount? Thousand hours extra, yeah Yeah. over three months. So so that's thr that's almost three times what you were expecting ? It's er yeah two and a half hundred and sixty percent higher than, than I would expect. Yeah. That's the, that's for every month? No Ju ju just That's over the three months. One quarter of the year. That's over the three months. Well it, the difference, I can tell you what the difference is ten grand. That's how, that's how much my budget is overspent er ov overtime is overspent. Right. So our variance is seventy three so take that out that's sixty three from our variance overall the rest of the patch is sixty three. But again we also need to work out how much has been spent on claims and E W S on on work which is er higher than budgets but we can say okay, that's not a direct result of deteriorating productivity, that's a direct result of, of problems we've got with temps and so on, that's a problem we've got with increased, increased work levels. So I need to be able to get down to actu that's when you, supposing that comes down by another ten K say, so then we're talking about fifty K, thereabouts, overspend in the main area, in which case to work out what's caused that, is that directly attributable to the the inputting of the systems. If it is then we should be able to say okay, as we come clear of the systems, we should actually be, that should be just a one off, special cause for that period. Anyway Maureen'll be trying to work out some, some of the, some of the issues so you expect that. How were things on Friday then? I mean did you see her after Friday's meeting? Yeah And were they were they that wildly out or? Well this is erm as I say we, we, we could've been somewhere in the region of two hundred and fifty thousand just on the I T issues alone. But it doesn't actually account for all of the overtime that we've spent not directly anyway. A part of that obviously I think is going to be that there was an expected higher level of productivity than we've actually achieved, cos you know in January I think in, in Christine's area for example, to start off with I mean er er er productivity plummeted erm and it's now, and she changed the system and, and one or two other things. And you've seen for example in central, Sheila, that their, their productivity level has improved Mm almost week by week. So what we actually are possibly seeing is ourselves coming out of the trough so therefore part of it's a training curve, but we do need to see that training curve start to come down and get back on to a level but we don't know where the level is, that's what worries us at this stage. And that's what we want to make sure we are in control of. Okay. It's important but I, I wouldn't I don't want to er get carried away with the fact that we're not performing well because we are performing well. Okay erm do you have any questions on that? No? No. Okay erm just move on to erm some items from the breakfast meeting this morning. Firstly, tomorrow you will see, I'm told, a man in a rai raincoat walking around the offices erm a guy called Mr maybe he's wearing a trilby as well with a tape measure. He'll be measuring things around the office. It's partly to do with the rent review. Erm the, the instructions I've got is be courteous but we're not here to answer questions. So if he asks you questions about the building or whatever then dunno Ignore him refer him refer him back to Office Services. Erm right, some other good news as well some good news coming out this morning, all these green shoots everywhere. Just give you some information on, on the fo sales forecast and sales r sales results erm on the sales forecasting front erm there's been a, a quite significant growth in head count in March, particularly. Erm most have, in fact most of which is er b er seventy four additional heads were put on in March, so we've gone from seventeen twenty three to seventeen ninety seven erm and Mick accounted for most of those with forty four. Erm and that means that we're thirty four heads up on budget at the end of March erm which is g very good news. Now one of the interesting things about this is that they've worked out, in order to erm achieve our sales forecast, erm the impact of recruitment for each branch is that we need a net growth in branch of one plus one for every er on every month. So each month they've gotta put, each branch have gotta put on plus nine between now and December and that should translate itself if the theory works erm to the figures that we want. And it's also not an unachievable figure, plus one a month net. Is that one over their existing forecast? Oh just one over their existing number? Yeah, take the current number, add one Oh so where you've got ten now, you end up with eleven at the end of the month, next Right month you end up with twelve and so on. Erm now Alton for example started off at the beginning of the year with four and they're now at thirty three very s very impressive how much they, them will succeed I don't know but some other good news on that front is that erm the average age of our consultants overall is now thirty one, whereas three years ago it was twe below twenty one. So Below twenty one the average? Yeah, the average age three over three years ago, it's now above thirty one. Thirty one-ish. The average age of our new recruits is now twenty nine. Sorry it's the other figure, the average age of our new recruits was under twenty one three years ago, right? The average age was about twenty three I think. So the average of the new recruits is twenty? Twenty nine. Just Go on. What's the total consultant count now? Seventeen ninety something? Seventeen Yeah it's just yeah it's almost eighteen hundred. Er which is a above budget. The other issue is that erm the production for March erm was a, was a gross brokerage of three point three mill and erm, which is plus six percent on the budgeted figure That's good. but I ought to explain what I mean by budgeted fi figure. That's the, that's, that's the planned figure, the forecast figure. Now one of the things you might've seen from the corporate briefings is you've got the budget figure and a forecast figure. The budget figure is what's been agreed with and it's a straightforward month by month, seasonally adjusted erm budget which comes to the end result figure that we're aiming for for this year. Erm the forecast figure is our plan of getting to the end result, which is not the same thing, which is in a way it's a bit like our overtime hours and some of the areas we said that we would spend X amount of hours in, in two months, we've had to then change the shape of that and said we'd have half of X over five months, so our forecast i is being done differently, cos they've worked out the, the branch forecast quite significantly differently erm Jeremy went through, through most of th briefly most of the means of doing that this morning and it sounds a lot more sensible than what they've done in the past. So when you see the forecast figures and, and, in, in the, the , that's what our plan is. If we hit our forecasts, even though it's below budget, we will actually hit our end of year targets. Erm it's g there now obviously the end of year it builds up over the end of the year partly because it relies on the extra recruitment and the increasing sales per er per capita erm or per capita sales I should say. Erm but it, it certainly is achievable. It isn't sort of oh well, just go for it, you know. It is certainly achievable and it has been done in er at varying levels by region and branch. And the worst branches have been given the, the, the stiffer targets to get them up to scratch. In other words the people who are performing well already will find it harder to make erm a significant inroad into that. So there's some good news there. Erm in March the top branch was erm Hugh erm interestingly enough erm in the south erm Nicholas erm was well down on recruitment, he was down minus twenty seven on his fore on his target, but was significantly up on his bus business that he brought in because they've been focusing on er in on that. But erm the conversations I've had yesterday indicate that they are doing a major push on recruitment. So er and they're very bullish I have to say, very bullish about the way things are going. So that's looking pretty good on that. I don't think I've got anything more from this morning so, only a bit about policy fees which I believe are now scheduled go up in first of August. There'll be an announcement about that and there's a team being put together to do the implementation. Are they gonna actually an announce it to erm the general public? Yes. Cos they were gonna just put it in generally speaking, you know Yeah but they're, but they're not they're gonna do it in some time in June I think that's the target. But I haven't got any more details of that yet. They're working on what they're gonna say and when they're gonna do it at the moment. Is that John ?sponsor Erm I think, well I think 's sponsoring it, erm with John . And Valerie and erm Roger will still be helping to put together the communication stuff. Do you know we're actually, on some cases we're actually stealing their thunder. Erm we've got some stand alone term insurances which are currently paying one pound ninety, so the moment they increase the policy fee they'll attempt to lapse so we're writing to all those people now to tell them to increase. What we telling them to increase to? That I've said erm if you take into account inflation at five percent which they, they, although they're not, haven't put it in concrete, they reckon they're gonna link it to inflation, erm that should be, in thirty years time, about five pounds. So I said erm if we say increase to five pounds now, they don't have to, but it means that they'll probably have a significant unit holding, you know, to compensate them. So five pounds will be absolutely safe but anything less than that won't be. But which, which type of policy is it? It's what? That I mean there, there won't actually be any impact on the system will there? It won't actually lapse them off but it'll, you know, give them a negative unit situation. Well th if it's only, if it's only term assurance there's no units involved anyway. No but the one pound, the O one record We'd never get our money would we? the O one record The O one will be going further into than the That's right. Yeah. Is that, presumably that's what's happening at the moment, it just goes one pound ninety in deficit each month Yeah. in the O one? And you see the problem with erm depending on the unit, the bid off the spread etcetera, sometimes they're paying us one pound ninety and it actually ends up in a nu mi minus unit situation Aha cos of the five percent bid off the spread. So And what happens in those cases then? On those cases it, it usually evens itself out er it usually says oh due to roundings I'll ignore that erm cos I've actu erm I've gained through the unit statement on, cos I've had one of these stand alone policies, and not wishing to pay the one pound ninety I've actually knocked it on the head now and incorporated it with another policy, but erm when we looked at it all, overall I've got a nil unit situation but in some months I actually had negative units, some months I had a, a sort of like point zero one of a unit positive. So there you go. Okay erm I've got, I just thought I'd, might just let you know that the, the end result figure that, that, on the recruitment front, they reckon they'll be at twenty three hundred by the end of the year. Good news. Okay, Jackie first of April recall problem. control contacted me yesterday to say that erm due to loss of system last week, and the fact that the Easter weekend erm is looming up on us, it means that they've, they've got insufficient time to run all the jobs that they needed to erm in the space that they, they would like to run them in. They gave me two options, basically one was to take the system down for twenty four hours and er while they got, they caught up with the jobs which I, I, I've knocked on the head. The other one was that they would be th the direct debit re-present on the first of April would be running one day late erm which, as a consequence, means that the recall re-presents would come back one day late. The recall re-presents come back in two phases erm one tape will come back on the fifteenth of April, the second tape will come back on the sixteenth of April which means that those policies, when status report runs on the fifteenth of April it will only assess those policies erm that have had yeah it'll, it'll assess them up until the fourteenth and fifteenth of April and it won't take into consideration there's been a recall after that date. So it won't, they won't get picked up for arrears processing. I think there's only about, well on average there's only between thirty and forty cases erm and which they are happy to identify for us erm so we can go in and update the diary or, or do whatever. Shouldn't Er but I don't believe it's worthwhile doing manual on the cases, they will get picked up in the next data support run which runs two weeks afterwards, that'll be erm beginning of May. So it will just mean that on those cases, on approximately forty, their arrears letter will be going out a couple of weeks late. When does the er status report run? Is it on the fifteenth? No it, I think it actually runs on the sixteenth but it only looks at premiums up to the fifteenth, think that's built into the, the, the parameters on it. That's okay, if the premium was due on the first even though, if, if we'd done the erm the recall before the status report runs it will show that as being in arrears? Yeah but if we'd then gone in to re-present Yeah it shows it as back in force and the, and the re-present will have gone But if that comes back on the sixteenth, is that, is that what you're saying, yeah? Yeah. It comes And if the status report runs after we run that recall tape No it's because it'll only look at the No it can't. It will only look at the premium status up to the fifteenth of the month, it won't take into consideration when so recall's gone through on the sixteenth of the month. That's why it used to say please ignore this letter if you've paid in the last few days. Mm. Mm. I didn't think that was the way it worked. Well Terry confirmed that to me yesterday cos I asked the question could we not just run it Later later and erm it doesn't T Terry ? Yeah. Would he know? Well he's checked It might be worth checking with, with erm Paul. I, I think this business of up to the fourteenth is premiums due up to the fourteenth. If you don't run the status report until the twentieth and you make, you, you do reversals between the fifteenth and the twentieth the status report will take those into account if they're affecting premiums that were due before the fifteenth. Oh, okay I'll check that with Jim would know. I don't know if Paul knows. Paul . Or Paul, yeah. Jim did a lot of work in the programming of it. Okay, I'll let you know. Either way it seems like we, even if it is a problem it's Paul anyway, yeah. Okay. data integrity. Right. The team our team started erm this week and they're now in the process of writing procedures and er putting the training package together. They're also looking at some of the data integrity erm issues one of which is potentially quite a major problem and the new system will for any qualifying plans, once the new system is in, if a policy's in arrears it will try and collect the arrears and it will collect up to a maximum of two premiums each month until the policy's in force and up to date. A lot of erm group one plans are, there are about ten thousand plans that are showing an arrears status at the moment, and premium has been missed some time ago, it's not a, not a current premium, which means on the fifteenth of June or the first of July we will automatically go in and pick up two premiums, we'll t we'll try and collect the arrears without having notified the client of it in any way at all. So we're l , we're l , we're looking at a couple of the options to see, you know, how much will it cost to actually put the money on the policy rather than going to the effort of writing it out, and it's gonna cost about two hundred thousand pounds just to do that, erm and that, we need, we need to weigh that up with the cost of actually dealing with ten thousand letters to clients, ten thousand enquiries erm I just wondered what your thoughts were on how we should proceed. the overtime budget So we, we will have actually written to them won't we? A long time ago, yeah. At some time ago to say you're in arrears Mm. and never written again. Mm. This is on the conversion is it? Going from ? Yes, that first month. Mm. Yeah. These are the ones where we've pulled, the capsule ones? Same sort of scenario but there's a lot more of them on this is it? Well the capsule was always worked in the same, in the way No the capsule, yeah, it was always collected Yeah, always collected No er sorry that you're always sending them duplicate letters aren't you? Are they not gonna get any letters at all? No. No. No no no You're just gonna go in and collect the money. We're just gonna go in and collect the money without having told the client. You couldn't credit the money and then take it off later? No sense in that. it's an ongoing thing. Th th those plans are designed such that all the premiums have to be paid. Mm. Can't we trigger another arrears letter? Just before we go in? Well if we know what the policies are Mm which we do, we can set a letter up on the system and we just On the system? Yeah the stand alone letter system, just get everybody to go in and request that letter. It'll be a very, could be a very vague letter just say you remember we wrote to you some time ago that your plan was in arrears, we've never had this money and we're now notifying you that we're gonna collect the arrears on your ne c payment. We won't be able to tell them what that amount is. We'll be able to tell them the date though won't we? Mm not necessarily. Not, not on the stand alone system? No. It will be one of two days. It'll be one of two days, it'll be the fifteenth of June or the first of July. It's ten thousand you're talking about? Mm. But they could be in arrears by more than one payment couldn't they? Yeah. So you could not just be talking about the first premium. Well m most Ah most of them will be in, in arrears by one premium if they're two they should be lapped shouldn't they? Yeah. Yeah and we can er, they're actually discounted those ones so yes they are one Good. one in arrears, mm. I don't think I've got an answer No use looking at me I haven't got any answers for it er Well you're answer must be twenty two hundred thousand about a thousand. No it won't won't be. Yeah and that's the other issue, they've gotta be done, whatever we do it's gotta be done quickly now we're talking about implementation just two months away. Does the erm does the report show the date that they, they pay their premiums? No. D d yes it does show the date, it doesn't you dates missed. It does show the date, month. First I is it possible to identify these cases? Yeah we have identified them. Then isn't it possible for us to take a download of those cases, names an and addresses, and do a one-off special letter, as Bob suggests? And start doing that now. And just say that in, in, in July, during July, this will be collected in July. Don't know. You're giving them three months then aren't you? Yes It'll cost us won't it? I mean it's a further development. Yeah if we could download it on to a P C a P C and get the people downstairs to do it it would be about ten grand all in. Which people? Erm the, not sure, the computer Information centre you talking about? yeah the information centre. We've got, we've gotta pay, we've gotta pay to draw the, the, the lists off ini initially Well we've gotta do that anyway. We've got that and once you've got that on a disk then to do the download. Yeah, get it downloaded on disk and then put it on a P C downstairs. I don't want spending all the money on Why can't we could, as I suggest it would be slightly vague and, and the fact that the, the report shows the collection date, we could say the date it's going to be collected cos you'd get them to go through all Yeah and do all the fifteenth first Mm. and then we change the letter on the stand alone system and do all the firsts. Yes, yeah we could do that. But you just won't say the amount that's all. Erm the arrears letter at the moment don't give an amount. They w o on the arrears letter we write and we say you're in arrears, please send us a cheque for the usual amount. Which c which type of policy you talking about? All group one policies, so it's benefits on pensions plus all the erm qualifying policies on pensions Pensions would have, yeah. would be slightly different because they, we'd only be collecting a part of the premium we wouldn't be collecting their investment part if that's in arrears. I think we have to do a note, a letter, of some sort. Yeah. If there, if there was a So you are in arrears, we've told you before Mm we're gonna, just letting you know we're gonna try and we're, we'll attempt to collect this Presumably if they wanna know how much they ring up anyway don't they? Yeah. Yeah we don't want ten thousand enquiries Well this is the th No well we can phase it though couldn't we? They're, are they all gonna be the same, same date? Yeah, all gonna be on the fifteenth Well some will be the fifteenth of June, some will be the first of July. No I mean the, the arrears aren't at the same date are they? No. No. How's the report been produced? Just policy number order? Erm Team. team order I believe, yeah. So each team knows their own cases. Does the report tell you how much against each policy? Mm Oh it says how much they're in arrears? Mm. Do we know wh when it was from? We don't I suppose When the arrears is from no. We've done a comparison between those that were in arrears before the beginning of ninety two and ones that have been in arrears after ninety two, and it's erm approximately eighty percent before ninety two erm twenty percent after. Before nineteen ninety two? It's a long time isn't it? Mm yeah. So it's nineteen ninety one arrears? And before. And a lot of them are before that. Can't we just do a premium holiday on them? Not on You can't have a premium holiday on a qualifying plan. These are all qualifying are they? Mm. So you're gonna have enquiries, aren't we, about Why how d you know yeah, you're telling me now that I missed something in eighty seven. No we will have already told them then. And that'll be in the diary won't it? Yeah taken you two years to collect it. Mm. Well it could be more than that, it could be eighty Well eighty four, eighty five. Yeah over six years innit? Well is there like financial correction? Didn't we do it on ano on another situation where we're basically saying it's a system problem more than a plan problem. Are you talking about the, the winding forward of bill two pay two? Worth a try. So we just write it up but we don't actually Well all we Yeah money paid does it? I know, yeah. It's just a correcting Yeah system But it works it works by money doesn't it? Yeah. It doesn't work by winding anything on, No the, the amount due has to equal the amount paid the system can't otherwise the system can't cope with it. Can't we do a manual ? Mm. No, the only manual would No I mean, that's right, a computer I mean Yeah. Yeah do a things. We can't do ten thousand D F Us, no, no way it's Why what a er what about doing taking it out of er I mean the only way is taking out Mm. but putting a note on the diary that when that policy comes to erm Mature No you've still gotta to mature thousand pounds you pay the money back in to . You take that money Yeah it's like a loan isn't it? Yeah that is a debt against the policy but it would be so hard to administer Yeah, oh we won't keep that up will we? I mean we'll end up sending out Fifteen diary screens later you know telling what the value is and Yeah yeah yeah I, I mean if, we know how much is outstanding on each one, we know when it's due to be paid, we know it's gonna be about eight hundred policies a section, is it, ten thousand? Ten thousand. I think we ought to bite the bullet and write to them now and say if you don't pay us a cheque for this amount cos it's qualifying we'll collect on next date. And we'll just Yeah we're giving them three months notice, if we can do that quickly And each team'll have to do a hundred Well each team, that means we're gonna, we've got overtime then for It's a hundred a week they'll have to do, per team. No wh what I'm saying is why can't we produce the letters off the box let's, can we find out exactly what it would, what, how er if we can find a way of getting this information downloaded onto a disk and then run it off on a straightforward standard letter basis. Yeah it's gonna be the overtime won't it? Mm. How do I find that out then? Erm well the first person to ask probably would be Paul , if he'd download it onto a tape, how difficult would that be and he'll give you And he'll be going ee! kick him in the goolies, I mean Scrub that bit Erm Louise did a similar thing for me, managed to get some one-off letters run off the system. Erm Maxine was involved and they didn't get involved. Louise first. Okay. I we could still use the stand alone system which I think'll be the quickest. Use the stand alone system so it gets the date that we're going to collect it, it can say all the things that we've said, it's, you know, we wrote to you some time ago and, and er we, we didn't get the money if you don't, as you said, if you don't send us this money we're gonna sounds like a threat doesn't it, if you don't send this money within the next three months we'll automatically collect it together with your regular premium due on the date To ensure the qualifying status is maintained yeah Mm And then we can say the actual amount that we're gonna collect is and just hand write it. Could do. Leave a space and they just hand write it straight off the report. Doesn't look very professional but I suppose it's better than not telling them Well it's better than spending a lot of money but it's an option. Get them pre-printed Mm rather than typed. You've got all the name and address then No cos it pulls up the name and address. If you do it through the system Yeah Oh right yeah through, through the system, but what that can't do is to pull off the arrears amount. But you, you've got them on the report, we could just write the arrears amount Yeah, I think you're right that's, that's That sounds like a reasonable idea. And they are our longer lasting customers so I don't think we're gonna get up their noses too much. So I don't need to speak to Paul then? We just need to get a letter set up on the stand alone system. Well on that way, yeah. Two letters, one for the first one for the fifteenth. Mm. Well let's try and go for that then. And you've got the amounts on the report anyway. check check it out that it will, we think it'll work but Now whose name shall these go, letters go in ? I, I, I, I should say they need to go off no they need, they need to go off, off, off team Mm. because if anybody's got a query, well like well when was it paid somebody's gonna have to look up and scroll back and Yeah mm. In that case we need a space for them to write their team number on. Why not just put it in the reference? But isn't that the sort of thing ? No you can't, you, you only have, you can only hand write . If you do that through the cheapest method which is the stand alone system it won't pull that off. No that's what I mean, hand write it Hand write, yeah, and the team telephone number. If you've got any queries You don't want enquiry desk number? No I don't think so, you need to spread the load. If you've got any queries on this please call me on and they write in blah blah and they sign their name so that it's legible. Isn't the enquiry desk capable of looking out when that arrears Well th they're al they're already snowed under with calls, if you've got another ten thousand cases and, and e the teams will have all the information, they'll have the reports you see. I don't think the arrears, when they, when it occurred is on the report The arrears isn't, no, they'd, you'd have to go in and No no not when it occurred but what it is and when it's gonna be collected is. Well let we'll draft a letter up and see s s s Okay yeah. but we need to get that out probably during April. Yeah. Okay. Anything else on that then? No. Erm on the stuff we've already talked about, sickness, erm er and Michelle, the transfers from S I S, one of the issues from the budget was that erm B S G B S G? Mm. Yeah Yeah is currently running about six vacancies light. Now it may well be that some people will transfer from S I S into B S G, I don't know yet, erm Where've they managed to get all these vacancies from? Yeah! Cos they're supposed to have, their budget's for twenty and they've only got fourteen. The other issue They've budgeted for er twelve senior managers Well one or two have left of course. Erm Is that a new budget then? Or is that from last year? No it's from the, it's from the other old budget, I mean it's the cos it's b all been rejigged but the overall impact is that Ma Mark has got six vacancies. Now the debate we're having is whether or not we fill those and transfer, not go and recruit extra people but we'd reduce the S I S, cos one of the issues is that erm the overspend on Marvin is seven figures. What do you mean on Marvin? On ? Yeah. Potentially. Pu pulled Bob out of his coffee yesterday So one of the issues is if we don't do certainly er the timing, all of the issues that are on there that we'd like to do erm that means we've got less testing, if you're gonna do less testing then so it might be that they er re-utilize the resource that way. But I mean that's just what we're exploring at the moment. So it might well be that we don't get the S I S people that we previously thought we might do. In some ways that might be good news, some ways it isn't. Erm but again I don't suspect that there's gonna be any any impact on that for the, for at least two months. There wouldn't be too many of the S I S people that would be suitable would there? Well no, but then that hasn't stopped has it? If you see what I mean. So in some Right. ways I'm not unhappy. No no, oh no. erm if that does come about but it's, it's an issue. It's like the same issue we talked about the three year plan projects if necessary we'll have to slow down on some of the projects, certainly to get through this budget year intact. Obviously if business goes really swimmingly then it may be easier to , I'm not sure. Phil, units update, Right erm we have run two now er unit data correction runs and it looks like we're correcting about seventy six percent, on average, of the policy base erm the other twenty four percent being cases which are being sliced erm multiple events, you know, er and all the rest of it, all real horror stories. Erm it does mean that we've got, so far we've gone through twenty two thousand policies, we're still in December erm anniversary dates erm so there's twenty thousand waiting to be printed two thousand were printed last night and they're going straight out the door,today. Erm we did an initial pilot run of nine hundred and seven, er and we had them redirected here which was quite fortunate cos we did find some er previously unthought of errors, erm there were two categories, these are ones where, since the renewal date, they've had er a decrease erm sorry an increase which meant that erm we're now quoting on their benefit statement as at last renewal, they've got today's er premium which of course is wrong, so we've had those redirected in future, inside here. And there's also some cases where er the plans have actually partially lapsed since last renewal and in which case it's quoting the premium they're paying now which is a lot less than the premium they were paying at renewal. So who's gonna be doing those? Those are gonna be redirected in here erm as well but it turns out that erm those two types roughly equate to forty out of two thousand which is half a, half a percent? Yeah. It's So only for matter of a week, ten days by which time it'll be fixed. Yeah we So there's we just won't be sending statements out? Er no th th for anything that they run this week, they'll be redirected in in-house, so we should be getting er about forty of those statements in tomorrow and forty the next day. And then they'll be reproduced? And then what we'll have to do,th the unit statement's perfectly okay, the benefit statement all you've got to do is get the benefit statement retyped but with a different premium in at renewal date. So the teams have got to do that have they? Yeah. This problem is only because you're doing them retrospectively, if you were up to date you wouldn't have a problem at all would you? Yes no problem, no. I mean it'll, this But we can't wait until Ju July for, to be complete. So you'd rather go ahead and just make numbers involved. Yeah. Well cos, for the sake of ten days there er er er erm Martin was gonna fix the problem, erm within ten days but we don't wanna have to go back and reprint everything cos the unit statement's perfectly valid. Yeah. Most of the i issues on the ben for most benefit statements they're also valid, it's just for these small number of cases where they're, they're not. Erm and it's really a question of retype the, the benefit Is it set up on the system, word processing? No it's not yet. I've got the first batch came back this morning, so now I, I've actually got the examples I can do it, it's not, no problem. Erm we've got, because we decided er decided that er redirect the whole first batch in-house we've got nine hundred and odd statements You could of course not send the benefit statement. Well the letter says Mm. change the letter. So if you're gonna retype you might as well Yeah and it's nice on the benefit statement to at least they've got something to reconcile against the units so that you've paid a total of ten Yeah, yeah you're right, yeah I was How ma how many do you reckon there'll be? Yeah yeah I know, yeah . How many do you reckon there'll be? Forty a day. Forty a day. So it's not an awful hassle Forty over ten days? No forty over er er Er forty a day over ten days. it'll only be until I should think erm next Tuesday will be the last batch, cos we've got these bank holidays fortunately in the, in the way where I T still work but we don't and so they're gonna fix, they'll carry on fixing it over the weekend. Erm there's nine hundred statements coming back in today but the units team that you all kindly lent me, we're all gonna sort through those and stuff them in envelopes and get them out the door. Okay. So the other ones, the ones that need correcting, we've gotta do a procedure or something for the team? Yeah. How do you pick up the ones that need correcting? The, they did an easy-trieve which runs every, every time they do a run they, they run and before they do a run they do an easy-trieve er identify those cases and then there's a marker you can put on poll M to redirect, it doesn't change the address but it redirects the unit statement in-house. Ooh magic. Yeah. Super. I had to use it for one of Andy That's worth knowing isn't it, in case yeah one of Andy's cases this morning I had to do it where it had growth old cash on it, which it shouldn't have had so it was quite handy. Mm. And there you have it. So we're up and running now. Okay statement. Okay I suggest we take a five minute break before we go on and just talk about regionalization and get a coffee or whatever. Back here at five to? Mm on the faxes, just erm one item that came up really from yesterday which I've already passed on to, to Sheila from the south cos it was raised at the south meeting but I think it's relevant to everybody. When we're using the fax facility and we get a series of policy numbers and a problem coming through to us erm that's not so bad cos that's being amalgamated by the branch secretaries, when it's going back, and we do it on the same one single fax going back, they're sitting there snipping up individual replies, you know putting individual replies into consultants' baskets unless they photocopy the whole sheet in which case they've got a confidentiality problem. Do you think you could look into trying to, when we're going back on the information, sending an individual fax for each case? We had this with Malcolm didn't we? From before. I . Yeah and we talked about doing it by consultant, rather than by client Well by consultant, yeah. it was an idea. But some of the branches apparently just like pinned it up, been quite happy to pin up the returned fax and then each consultant just gone and read his own bit. Yeah I know but, but mm okay I mean rather than do all the photocopying or whatever. If you ha if you haven't had it rai if you haven't got a problem then fair enough but if you do get it raised as a problem, the confidentiality bit, then fair enough. But I told Malcolm yesterday that I thought that, that we operated on the basis that they trusted everybody. There's a cost implication there of doing a separate fax for each consultant. Yeah. And time. Cos on ours, we just return the same thing that they send That's right. What we get Yeah, yeah that's right. Well perhaps I'll just do it for Malcolm's patch. I'll speak to Tim, what did Tim think? I think it was they wanted a complete reply for each consultant file, or case file didn't they? Mm. Which Unlike Malcolm to complain though isn't it? Mm. Validly? No you're right. With a valid er Right, okay. Erm the other thing was that the people at senior level need to be reminded, if they do have a major problem erm that's David and Malcolm, erm where, if they've got a rather difficult case and it's urgent and they want a, they don't wanna have to put it on a, on a fax, they want, they need it there and then erm, and they don't like the telephone call facility, I said well, well that's primarily for consultants. Erm Sorry to interrupt you but there's nobody around at all and I've, yeah if I can just No and Sue's just gone off sick, yeah. leave that with Phil rather than keep running up and down Yeah sure. the stairs. Ta, ta. Erm Ian left that with me and I was to speak to Bob before Bob gave it to because it wasn't very good. Oh right. Wha what wasn't very good about it ? when you've checked it. Oh the value isn't very good? Well that's what I assume he meant. Yeah we know that, I've already told Bob that. Ah! It's even worse . Oh no! He's made seven and a half P? Thank you very much. Oh dear oh dear oh dear. Yep. Okay so where were we? Talking about the faxes weren't we? Erm the point I made to them, that everybody round that table, if they did have a problem that they thought was urgent, they should get on the phone to the, you know, Steve and Mm They do. Sheila. I mean they do do it. Yeah I know they do but I mean I I'm not gonna sit there calling Malcolm a I could have done but er What I don't like is that we went back didn't we, I don't know if you saw my thing to David where we report back on a fax, report every month Yeah. who is phoning. Nicholas wanted to know who uses the phone That's right. so we report back. David didn't like it because he was on there and so we went through saying that I have only the most important It's not an issue for everybody else round the table That's right. except for those two. Yeah. But it's just worth bearing in mind that erm, as long as the senior people are quite comfortable they can get through to, to us if they need to, that they're not bound by the normal fax routine or whatever. But they should know that anyway, or I made that point yesterday, so er th the point they quoted was that erm erm rang up the team and got told no you've gotta put it on a fax,find it hard to believe that that was if that was the manager on the phone but it's just important that the people on the team know who the senior managers are. Mm. That's all. So it's worth reiterating, making sure each member of the team knows who the senior people are and the branches they're s they're operating. And if necessary get the things typed up and pinned up, key senior personnel at the branches. Put a branch organizations chart up. Okay er Phil I'll need to see you about erm organizing the unit party. We haven't done unit regionalization by the way, you skipped that. You haven't done Oh I know that, I know but I'm Oh right. waiting until after Kevin 's been in and gone erm cos, cos it'll, I don't wanna stop half way through. Oh right. Erm What's he coming in for? That's what I thought, it's not on the Talking about introducers, right. That's the participants that I've got, do you wanna have a check of it, see if there's anybody that's been missed off. I thought th yeah I thought this was a fair old crowd anyway. Yeah well hopefully there won't be anybody that missed off but Have I've got a com er s sort of complaint Take it away I er I thought it was the way you were sitting Bob from erm Andy there's a party and a units party but he doesn't know anything about a units party. the wrong team hasn't he? So I said, so I said it's not fully delivered yet. But are we gonna do something? No listen we don't, I need to speak to Chris about it but erm is Andy on that list? Andy wouldn't be from There's a couple of 's people on there. There's a lot of people here who have left as well but er Well once they've got the valuations in and switches and it's not till June No well we might well it might be that we say we want a combined party, I don't know, what the hell does he have to do with it? write the veto Oh right. We'll blackball him for a start playing so, it'll be a bit like, it'll be like the party sort of Erm, talking about erm parties and things, erm we ought to have a social event for client services I think, certainly sooner rather than later, particularly with regionalization looming. Just wondered if we could get something organized, don't know what to do. But I thought that erm barn dance or something like that would be favourite cos it's not too expensive and it's something that everybody can muck in on. Any other good ideas? Get it done quite cheaply in, in Harlow. Presumably we, are we charging staff for this? Are we charging staff for it? We won't have to pay for it will we? Or are we getting it out of our own budget? No I think we'll have to charge something. Well I Well in that case I can probably get something towards it but but not Well in that case I think the cheapest cheapest alternative yeah is erm, if you're gonna do er something like that, would be a barn dance in the hall down Edinburgh Way er which you get quite cheap Oh it's about hundred and fifty quid. no the football team organized a disco there. I I know a barn dance caller who's recently offered his services. Oh right, is that from Surrey? Yeah but I don't know what what he'd charge for coming up. Yeah, okay. Can we But I could ring can we explore that? Mm. And see if we get something set up, probably I think May would be favourite wouldn't it? It's not too far away and it's not too close to the, the changes and some of the announcements will be out by then. Kevin's just arrived so I'll go and get Kevin in, erm copy of what was broadly speaking agreed of which Phil's already got a copy anyway. So's everybody else I think. Yeah oh have you? Oh right, oh sorry about that. Has it changed at all? Sorry? No. Hasn't changed at all? No. Yeah Wednesday the twenty first we're it's Tuesday evening Yeah. Right now well all I, I ex I knew that you were having meetings about it so really all, all I need you to do is actually get this validated by your group and if there were any change significant changes you wanted to make then to come back to me and David with that those suggestions but erm it struck me that th the thing hangs together quite well. Erm so, in principle we've agreed that schedule, er I'm waiting for erm Bob to sort V I out and the name erm as you may be aware erm Bob wants to call it client servicing and our view was that by and large it wasn't a question of having to have loads more different screens we just needed them in different areas and they could, they'd go to Louise to get where people were going to be and it's mostly about the R S six thousand for commission erm on which there are only about twenty of those anyway, twenty seven so I didn't really see that as being a major issue. The only thing I said was about T S G and David said that Good evening. Are we ready? Can I say two minutes for what I think might happen and where we've derived some of the authority from. Then maybe we could introduce ourselves seeing as there's some folk here who haven't met everybody before. And after that er we shall be taking the running order which is then a sketch next,which is not cast yet because we didn't know who was coming and who wasn't. But I'm sure we'll man we'll manage that okay. The there's five organizations which Justice and Peace comes across quite a lot. These are CAFOD, Christian Aid, Oxfam, Traidcraft and World Development Movement. Comes a comes across some others as well, but it comes across these five very frequently. And at the moment, all five of them have joined together on a single campaign, which is about trade. This concerted action is pretty unusual. So I was wanting to to mention why it looks like it's happened just now. An erm I'm looking at a Christian Aid produced brochure called Trade for Change, which is the name of Christian Aid's campaign. E each of the organizations has got th s slightly different version o of the same campaign. The front cover says,how would you feel if you were working just as hard today as ten years ago, but earning a third less ? And it says that's what's happening to the poorest communities, the poorest countries in the Third World. And wh why that's happening is really what we're going to be spending the evening on, and it's related to international trade. Historically, poor countries were introduced to international trade by rich ones like ours,because they were introduced as colonies. Their role was to pro to provide raw materials to countries like Britain and France, classically. And they were also markets for manufactured goods. Goods we cou which were manufactured in our countries. Now the colonial era has gone, at least in name,but things haven't changed. The poorest countries still produce the raw materials. But the rich countries, ourselves, do the rest. They provide the shipping, the processing and the selling. The processing is done over here by and large, which is where the profit is and in the selling. And sometimes it's all done by the same company. And when we get onto coffee, that's will come alive. Anyway, this is all heavy stuff. So we were going to have a sketch. What about then? Oh I'm sorry dear. Cos I've put it up. Yes. I know. But we haven't introduced each other have we? No. The pleasure's been So I I'll move back a bit. Having said we would introduce ourselves, perhaps we should. If I start with me. I'm called Charlie. I'm married to Moira over there. And we're two of the people in York erm who work for Traidcraft. There are o others as well. We're involved in some other organizations as well would you mind s going next? Yes. Erm my name is Richard, Richard . Margaret's husband. Margaret. Are we really supposed to say something about ourselves as well is it ? If you wish. Well, I'm Rachel.. I'm Sheila , and I'm . I'm Theresa , but I'm not any relation to Sheila . I'm Aidan . And I'm Bernadette. missionary. and . I'm Raymond, and I attend the Friends' Meeting here. Only just moved to York, so I haven't erm kind of got affiliation with anything. I'm Denise, and I come here occasionally. I'm Mary, and I usually come to the meetings. Erm my name's Derek, and I'm taping the meeting as most of you know so far. Erm I'm Nancy , and this is the first time I've come to one of these meetings. I'm living and working in Derbyshire and just back in York for the school holidays. Anne. Erm I'm part of the Justice and Peace group. Margaret. Sister. I'm David. David . I'm history . I'm Moira and I'm a friend of David's. I'm a friend of a friend. Right we're going to have a sketch now. Which hopefully will work out okay. There is a script, but erm we haven't cast the players except Anne, who's going to play Doreen. Anne said she worked in a factory at one time. I was a student. Popcorn factory? So the it says it's a short story. It's called, Just links in a Chain. It's produced by Christian Aid and it's part of its Christian Aid week's activity. It's about the experiences of a, a cocoa worker in north east of Brazil,and a chocolate factory worker in Birmingham. These roles, two people, the cocoa worker's called Maria,the chocolate factory worker is Doreen. It says they're based on actual interviews with the women involved and that some additional parts have been written to show how they are in fact involved in a global chain. Producing chocolate. Now some people have already been passed these by me while they were still getting ourselves together. If they had time to have had a look er, if someone could, could take the part of Maria. Would that be helpful? And after that we have a man called Heg who I presume is a man anyway, it looks like a man's name. Would that be okay for you David? Yeah. Then there's a, a man called Joe. Richard? And probably a man called Balakrishnan. If that's a man's name. And would anyone who's got a paper already, like to take the part of Zoe? Denise? And Carol.. Yes,i if everyone has read the the final paragraph who's involved before we begin. The final paragraph on Erm i erm on the first page, I'm sorry. Thank you. Is that yesterday's now? Hello, I'm Maria. It's eleven A M here in the cocoa plantations of Bahia in north east Brazil, and it's already ninety degrees in the shade . Oh. What am I supposed to do? Yeah. I see right. I'm sorry . What are we supposed to do? I should go back into the chair . I'm Doreen. It's two P M here, and I'm in the Bourneville chocolate factory in Birmingham, concentrating on the next batch of Cadbury's Flake. It's freezing cold, about ninety degrees in the open, but I'm glad of the rain for the garden . My job is to slice open the tough cocoa pods with a sharp knife, and scoop out the beans. I need my four oldest children to help. We squat on the ground, eating our lunch as we go, and work as fast as we can for eleven hours every day. The beans are dried and exported all over the world we don't know where. We are just links in a chain . I've worked here in the factory for twenty three years. My father worked here, and my brothers work here now. As a result of my union work, I've come to understand how I am linked to a chain too . Even when we all work, it is difficult to earn even the minimum wage for one, which is about nine pounds a month. It's not enough to feed the family. What's more, my husband is ill, and I can't afford to buy his medicine. I'm angry. I need a living wage . A few years ago, members of our union who were unloading cocoa beans when they arrived in the U K, began getting sick. We had no idea why, and took the matter up. We were angry as well. Around that time, we heard about a network, which could link us up to other cocoa workers around the world. We became a link, and joined the chain . I'm Heg, a member of the network. It's called the Transnational Information Exchange, or T I E for short. Our office is in Holland. We told Doreen about Maria and her friends in Brazil, because we were links and had joined the chocolate chain . When Heg told us about TIE's contacts in Brazil, we wrote to them . Doreen's letter told us about the mysterious sickness. We discovered that it was because of the pills put between the cocoa bean sacs to kill insects. The pills were highly poisonous. We protested . We protested . When we heard about the problem from Heg, we protested. I'm Joe, a member of the cocoa workers' union in Ghana. We were worried about the poisonous pills too. We became the we became a link, and joined the chain . I'm Balakrishnan, a cocoa worker in Malaysia. When we learned of the mysterious sickness, we protested, became a link, and joined the chain . As a result, the cocoa exporters cut down the use of the toxic pills . In nineteen eighty nine, two hundred cocoa workers in Bahia were threatened with the sack. Some said it was because we had harvested too many beans, but it was because our union was getting stronger. We protested . We protested . We protested . We protested . And we protested, writing letters to everyone we could think of. To the company, the union, even the president . Our employers took notice of the letters. They learnt of the links who had But they learnt of the links who had joined the chain. They backed down. Our jobs were saved. Then the next year, we heard from England that one of our friends at the chocolate factory was facing dismissal. We protested . We protested . We protested . We protested . And we protested. When we heard about, when we heard about the faxes that had come in from all around the world. The company was inundated. They learned of the links that had joined the chain. I was reinstated . Now we are all links in a stronger chain. When we hear of problems facing chocolate workers anywhere, we take action, remembering how links in the chain have helped us . All this talk of chocolate is making me feel hungry, and chocolate is my special passion. I'll be a link and join the chain . This week is Christian Aid week, and we must ensure that people earn a fair return for their labour. I'll be a link and join the chain too . For us, life before death means Sufficient food for my children . A living wage . Healthy working conditions . Medicine for my husband . The freedom to join a union . Enjoying a bar of chocolate without expl exploiting others . Secure jobs for all . The chance to work together in search of a fair deal for all. Why not join us? Become a link and join the chain . Thank you everyone. This is from a Christian Aid Week publication called God of the Fair Measure which is obtainable from Christian Aid if people want. There's an order form on the back of this photocopy. And that's free. Right. Next bit, information and figures wh erm we erm it's a bit of a background as to what world trade is and how big it is. Erm I'd like to start by saying we are all links in a chain, we are all consumers. We're all part of the world trade system. We all eat and drink things every day that have come from overseas, Third World countries. Unless we're extremely green, I suppose there's some people who don't. Er I think probably all of us here today have eaten something or drunk something that's wasn't grown in this country. Erm I was looking through some of the books for some of the startling figures and things that happen in world trade. One of the things that came across was that the average sixteen year old leaving school this year in the U K will spend a million pounds in their lifetime. They will all have enormous consumer power. And how they choose to spend it can affect things that happen in the world. There's a couple of enlarged pages from Christian Aid book, Raw Deal, Trade and the World's Poor, which came out last year? I think as the first part of their trade campaign. Erm this one here is about how very large companies control an enormous part of the world trade. Cereals which is wheat, rice corn. Five companies control seventy seven percent of the trade. Bananas, three companies control eighty percent of world trade. Cocoa another three companies control eighty three percent of the world trade. Tea is eighty five percent by three companies. And tobacco is eighty seven percent by four companies. And some of these companies are in such as er Nestle appear in cocoa, and they also appear as very big players in other commodities. Nestle are the biggest commodity traders in the world trade for cocoa, milk and coffee. And after oil, coffee is the biggest commodity single product in world trade. And Nestle control eleven percent of that that world trade. They're the biggest single company. And er a couple of quotes from Nestle. They had a report in nineteen seventy six called Nestle in developing countries where they said,The volume of our purchases of cocoa and coffee is so vast that it influences the market of those commodities . They actually said then that they contr that they had an influence on how on the cost and where they bought it from. But when New Consumer was writing this book Global Consumer, a couple of years ago,they sent a questionnaire to Nestle. And erm the reply was,is the New Consumer seriously suggesting that Nestle pay in excess of market prices ? So they er they agree that they have an influence on market prices, but they, they won't, are not prepared to pay any more than they have to. Allied Lyons who is also a major part of the British coffee trade, replied to the Global Consumer, that the fairness of trading was the responsibility of governments and GATT, it'd got nothing to do with them. They only buy things, they're only part of the trading system, but how fair that is has nothing to do with them. Can i do you want figures on commodities I think quite a lot of us are aware that coffee prices have gone down in the last ten years. Certainly as far as we're concerned at Traidcraft, when we started eight years ago a packet of coffee was two pound twenty five. It's now one pound sixty. And Traidcraft have tried to keep the price up to people. The world price has gone down below that. In Brazil there are all sorts of commodities whose price has gone down over the last ten years. A kilo of in Brazil now brings in a fifth of what it did in eighty, nineteen eighty three. And in Nicaragua, one pound of coffee beans is actually a quarter of what it was in nineteen seventy seven. And g to go back to Brazil and the coffee workers there, the mo minimum statutory monthly wage for a cocoa plantation worker in Brazil is nine pounds for the month. Many people don't earn that anyway. And it cost sixty pence in this country to buy, buy a small bar of chocolate. But the workers have only been paid nine pounds for the month. United Kingdom confectionery trade is worth two point six billion pounds, billion,and two years ago a figure that really astonished me when I saw it was that the total of all money that was given to development charities in the United Kingdom, including CAFOD, Christian Aid and Oxfam was equal to what Britain spent on one product made in York and that's KitKat. Pound for pound it's the same. Money given by who to? Everyone to Oxfam,Christ the total income of Oxfam, Christian Aid, Save the Children, CAFOD, was the same as what we spent on one product. Do you know what the product was? KitKat. Which really brought it home, that it was you know. Another thing I found out today was do we know where our m main supplier of our coffee is? Any guesses? Which country? Mm. Which country is er the biggest single supplier of coffee to this country. Kenya. Yemen. Brazil. It's Uganda. Uganda. It relies on its coffee for ninety seven percent of its exports. Terribly dependent on coffee. Another thing that surprised me more than anything was, our main supplier of tea, which we get over half our tea from now, is Kenya. And the amount of it we get from India and Sri Lanka ha has gone down quite a lot. Do they send to somebody else, or is their total production down? Part of it as far as I could see was in India that i India India's actually got it's quite a success story for development in a lot of ways. And as people in India have got wealthier, they're just drinking more tea. There's a huge domestic market for tea in India. Sri Lanka part of the trouble is the civil war. But also there's a the Soviet Union used to grow a lot of its own tea, but it grew it round Chernobyl and it had to start importing a lot of tea. The Soviet Union's a big oh ex-Soviet Union now, was a big drinker of tea, so you . I thought Georgia was their main tea area? There's a, apparently a lot of it has been affected by Georgia's not that far away is it? Well, it's a fair distance, yes. Th that's what th the books are saying, that it's that production of tea in the Soviet Union has gone down. Would it have been affected by fallout from Chernobyl? I have no idea how i it went around a up in the northern hemisphere, over Scandinavia, and Georgia's in the south, so you'd have think it'd have been weak by the time it got down I'm not a scientist, I have no idea what Maybe they're more cauti cautious than we have been in this country about the effect of Chernobyl. Erm Of the total of goods that are sold in industrialized countries, such as, that have been manufactured, only three percent of them are made in developing countries. Which comes on really to the second thing. We in the north, and in the E E C in particular, have a policy of encouraging, or discouraging, Third World countries from from doing anything to the, the commodities at all , apart from exporting them raw as far as possible. And we do that by tariffs. Into the E E C, raw coffee has an import tariff of nine percent. But if it's an extract or instant coffee made into instant coffee, the tariff is double, it's eighteen percent on it. For cocoa beans, it's three per cent for cocoa beans that we were talking about in the in the sketch. By the time it's become cocoa powder or chocolate, it's sixteen percent tariff on it. And dried fruit, tropical fruit, eight percent when it's fresh or dry, but if people, if Third World countries prepare it into fruit juices, then it's twenty three percent tariff that they put on it. Ninety s percent of the coffee that er is drunk in the U K is instant coffee. Which is the most processed form of coffee you can get. And erm forty percent of that is one coffee. Or Nescafe's blend. And another sixteen percent is the other Ne Nestle coffee erm Blend Thirty Seven which I used to drink a long time ago and others and twenty two percent is er Maxwell. Maxwell House, which has become the other local brand now seeing as how Maxwell House is owned by Kraft, and Kraft now own Terry's. When you start looking at fair trade,we always say that Traidcraft is a fair trade company. When people ask us in the street what it is. And normally the short cut to tell people fair trade company and it tries to give, pay people a fair price for what they've made. But fair trade as we saw from that sketch, involves a lot more than just fair wages. And for the next part we're going to divide hopefully into groups and what I'd like you to consider is when you're thinking about buying a product, what questions you ask. That you know if it's been traded fairly. I think we've all got used to, with some products at least, asking questions about how green it is, whether it's recycled paper, whether it's going to destroy the ozone layer, as well as asking questions like what price is it, but if we're going to decide whether one jar of coffee is fair-traded as opposed to another one, what questions do we need to kn know the answers to, to decide that. So if we could get into groups of maybe about four. And perhaps come up with four or five answers four or five questions not answers that erm you think you might need to, to ask to find out. How long have we got to ? Erm about ten minutes? Piece of paper. Yes, but that wouldn't tell us, would it? Would it tell us? Would it . What questions do you think we need to know? And you want to know whether it would be more expensive. Mhm. Yes ah. No, it's, the questions are, what questions do you need to know the answer to when finding if something was fairly traded? not when you were buying it? Well it might if it was more expensive but I mean it might just be more expensive anyway. I say, has it got the fair-trade mark on it? The fair-trade mark like erm a kite mark. I didn't even know there was one. I think there's going to be, I don't know whether there is so I sh I should ask fair-trade mark. where the money goes . I mean, don't know wh how to word that. I mean, I've always been . I never bought things from South Africa for many years, because of what was happening in South Africa. Er There's so many people in between I . I'm putting your question down , is it a lot more expensive than it would be in the, in the producer country, which is what you said really, isn't it? If we know the answer to it. Er I'd want to know how much the people who are working on it at all stages are paid, if they're paid a living wage. Mm. And I would want to know what the health effects were on them of the conditions in which they had to work. There was something happened to Nestle with regarding erm the mothers and the milk in Africa I'm not quite sure what it was. I think Nestle have had to change their policy, because they were selling it and advertising it, and it was obviously doing harm to the children. I mean, Nestle had to abandon that. Mhm. Yes. Yes, that's not quite the same thing as fairly traded though. Well, it is in a way because it affects, involves the person's health, so it's important. But those, that was the consumer wasn't it? It was I think because the powder was er pushed by the, the er company in Third World hospitals, and when the mothers went out they hadn't got safe water to mix it with. It's not quite what Moira's asking . No so therefore I don't want to buy Nestle because of that. Yeah, but I think that's something different isn't it to fair trading? Er I think, you know What is, what concerns fair trade you know you've got to think Denise said she wouldn't buy erm the Nescafe because of the baby milk you see, so I thought that was slightly a different topic t er to the one we were asking about fair trade. Well, yes, I suppose one of the questions you could ask is, is there a boycott against the company? Right. But yeah, I think that'll do because because the boycott is because of their unfair trading. I mean I would never buy it, but I would try not to buy anything . And they went and bought it in Brazil instead imported from Brazil where people are working for nothing. I mean, I am not that involved with this, but I've been following that . It's difficult to know which country the cocoa comes from because you don't know where they buy it. They buy it from one country one time another country another time. They used to buy from Ghana a lot and er at one time they stopped it and this very nearly brought down Ghana's economy right down. That was about twenty years ago almost twenty years ago, so where they buy it now I don't know. One just doesn't know. What was that last question? Where, where do they buy their cocoa? So shall I put, where is the r where, where is the raw material from? Cos it's not just cocoa is it, all sorts of things erm They change from one country to another and that that lets some countries down on their economy. They've been doing that for a they take it from and they put it in cheap cheap labour. The whole thing is, is it's They moved the Hoover factory from France to Yes. Britain because they get cheaper labour. Britain's become a Third World country. Well it is almost a Third World country actually. In some respects . Only for some. Are they still enough? No, we've done very well. I know. We've done very well cos there's four we've got five questions and we were only asked for four. So we've got a spare one. So I'll just read them out. Has it got a fair-trade mark? Is it a lot more expensive than it would be in the producer country? I put in brackets middle men. And what do they do with the money as well I'd like to know. Do they buy arms and things like this er Erm what are the health risks to producers or processors? Is there a boycott against the product? Er where do the raw materials for the product come from. Ch cheap labour in certain countries. interesting to hear about India, about tea, because er my daughter is working in India quite a lot and it is very high poverty for people. So, you know some of the tea some of the workers population is working in India. I mean the poverty is greater than in Africa or anywhere ah in the world. you know. Well it's er the same idea as Thatcherism that some of the people are going to become very wealthy. And the others are going to be the same rather less. Any more ideas? Did you put down ? I'd go along with most of those. It's really a question of finding out where the material is coming from and knowing what the conditions are like there. Mm. It's really a question of knowing where the raw materials are coming from, where the product comes from and what the conditions are like there, but, of course it's all very well saying it's a question of what but er how many people involved are going to know that? If you go into a shop, there aren't very many shops besides somewhere like Traidcraft who will know so O only for fruit really. Fruit's about the only thing you can ask which country. Some things they're obliged to tell you where those come from aren't they? Yes. Yes at the moment another time I wasn't going to buy anything from Chile, and er I was asking the young man who was is this from Chile, oh I don't want them. He said I don't buy them either. tell management. But the Green Consumer Gui Guide, I have two daughters buying them for Christmas presents for friends, when they came out, so that people should be very aware of what . I have thought of a question. Good. Erm because as Moira said that Kraft is erm now what was she saying, what was she saying Kraft is the same as Craft? Traidcraft? No. Maxwell. Maxwell House. Maxwell House is Kraft Oh yes, they're owned by Kraft yes, yes. which is Terry's isn't it. So erm is the company erm part of er a bigger company? Part of a multinational. Under these new European trade regulations, they seem not to tell where the things originate. now got to trying to decide is that made in England, or was it made in Germany or . Put in brackets Terry's equals er Maxwell House or Kraft. Oh well, we've got six so that's quite How have you come to join us tonight? What how did you? I saw Charlie at church on Good Friday. Oh. How did you come to know about the group? It was er advertised in the er it's advertised in the paper, and when I saw it there well, I er recordings from as many places as possible and it's an ideal opportunity Could we come back into the group now? I'm an ex-student. Right, can we We came upon the idea of asking this question as the result of going to a for Change conference. The reason I went last year it was Birmingham, May. And one of the workshops I went to was by someone called Richard . And he's involved in launching the fair-trade mark of which a little bit more later. He wrote this book, he started Traidcraft off, he was the person who was i his brainchild, he was the driving force behind it for a long time. Then he went on to the Global the New Consumer, looking at ways and how consumer power could be used for ethical purposes. Er and the Global Consumer was, was one of the fruits of that. His others are Shopping for a Better World and a few other books that were produced. Is it Richard Not Richard who wrote Watership Down. Watership Down no, no. altogether. . That was his brother. He's probably coming up to about forty six now but he, he was quite young when he started off with Traidcraft and everything. And he asked us to er at that time in May they were looking at what criteria they were going to judge products to award a fair-trade mark to them. And he asked us in a group to to suggest some things that we might think of as being important. And he had a list which I've, I've got there and er I think he got two things suggested that were on his list from the group of people who were supposed to be aware and er about twenty things which he thought maybe they should have thought about, and hadn't . Our first question is has it got the fair-trade mark? Mm. Right, I'll put that up. And the answer'll be no, cos nothing has at the moment. Now we know why we haven't seen it. Mm yeah. Yes. Could something be done about fair trade? What's the name of the company? And with that goes, who, who owns the company as well I think. Mm. Mm. For instance, we buy Batchelors, and that's owned by Nestle. Really?who owns things. Chambourcy as well. Nestle have actually started putting their labels on the pro the company on quite a lot and the logo on. But not everything has it. We discovered Perrier water last week. We don't buy Nestle now at all. Perrier? Yes. Erm we'd want to know erm how the crop was produced. Erm whether it was you know produced on a plantation? Or small farmers and, what producing it would represent? Er grown as a cash crop or er or erm We were thinking about coffee at the time in particular, and quite a few of the people wanted to know that. . You want to write? Eh? You want to write? No. Er er oh erm oh right oh. Er well right back here again I think er Yeah. erm how many middle persons it might have passed through. Mary? Erm is there a boycott against the product in force? Such as the one against erm erm n now, now Nestle then erm baby milk thing. Erm what is the price? Is it being charged enough for it, you mean? the opposite. So it's fair trade You wouldn't have got want it honest thing . If it is an important consideration of the price tells whether people buy it fairly or not, but you know if the price is very high then . Even though we know that comparatively we're all millionaires. Mhm. Yeah. . Erm we would like to know whether the food's been produced cleanly, say organically. Erm or at least cleanly without noxious chemicals. For example I can remember erm hearing that erm Spanish some Spanish oran orange growers who grow their oranges under tunnels, er were getting very depressed because of the erm chemicals they were spraying on them had a harmful effect on their nervous systems. Er this is sort of thing we, you know, might want to know. Erm the amount of packaging. Very topical I would imagine with the . Mm. Yes. The packaging they use is illegal. You know, that could be linked to how clean it's been grown. Environmental. Mm. . Why have there been . We've er we've got two th already put together. Erm what's the obvious appearance of the product?and i and what's the contents of the product, like additives and things. We particularly mentioned monosodium glutamate. Mm. Do the workers have any erm powers of negotiation over the price paid and what they're going to be paid. Wages. What were you saying about packaging,? Well, yeah, well it's just very wasteful It's just so wasteful, right, whether it's unnecessary packaging. You would think it'd be more hygienic. I could see that would be more green, but I just didn't know how it was more fair. Well, it just sort of It would indicate more middle people, for one thing. Yeah there'd be . Yeah. Likely that. More processed. You know. Part of the price of the packaging would be taken off the wages. Somebody might be paid then to do packaging. One packaging, is important . Mm. We were influenced by media coverage. Have there had been any stories in the media or er television programmes. For example er,. What were the sausages ? There was a lot of erm protests after a World in Act was it a World in Action on tea estates in India and Sri Lanka? And er that was quite a few years ago, about the conditions and on tea estates, and er er that was partly why we switched mostly to Kenyan tea I think after that. There must have been something. I can't remember exactly what it was but there was I've got a very strong memory of There was a, there was a big campaign against Brooke Bond because of their conditions and . And they're supposed to have improved a lot through pressure. Someone? Yeah. Jean? Erm well we'd, we'd got something on trying to ascertain if things had been produced by a multinational, which I suppose ties in with probably with, with three down. Yeah. Why would you say something wouldn't be fairly traded? Well, if I could see that . The European Association of Fair Trade Companies they're getting towards it. Mm. Well . We also thought perhaps erm looking at things like workers' cooperatives as well. Workers' right to negotiate in cooperatives, mm? Any more? I also think, on er sort of workers' rights, I mean if you know the person that's made it, like a local butcher, I would trust more to make I would trust more than . Mhm. You're in a better position to ask the questions if you know who's actually made the aren't you? Yeah. Yeah. Mm. So there's no question they can better. Ah. That would identify the producer or the manufacturer. Right. Erm there's a couple of examples from two statements of fair trade. One is Traidcraft's purchasing policy, which is slightly different to how it decides whether it's going to buy from a particular group, people who're producing something. This is some of the questions it asks them. When somebody approaches Traidcraft to sell their products for them, they get a, a detailed, four-page I think, questionnaire to fill in about the company, and how they run and what they do. And the five main points that are covered is whether it's organized for the benefit of its members,which partly comes into that, but it goes a bit beyond that I think. The workers' rights. Not just the right to negotiate, but to but the organization should actually be organized to benefit the people who are part of it. Are they concerned for the personal welfare of individual producers? Which I suppose is in . Does it pay wages and provide working conditions which are or above the average of its locality? I think we haven't got here that, fair wages . Whether people have actually been paid a fair wage for what they've made. Mhm. Yeah. Well, record of country of origin, I think that definitely Mhm. And workers' rights. I mean, it's practically impossible to know that Yes, but we definitely talked about that. just by looking at the product. Yes. But that is part of the question that they need to know the answers. I mean what is the wage policy for that country? I know India has got a wage minimum for the tea workers now. And tea estates in India have now got to be owned by Indians or by the Indian government. It's for making products which are now or are potentially viable commercially. That is something to do with Traidcraft that they erm they quite often work with groups who have been set up by carriages from Europe. So they've actually got to be making something that's that can be sold or can be sold in the near future if they . And it must pay no more than a reasonable service fee to agents. Middle persons. Oh yes. If they are involved at all. And sometimes it's quite difficult I think to get away from middle persons because that is it's part of the structure of the c the country you're dealing with and so to cut down on exploitation from the mi but as to how far you can actually impose your, your culture as well. There's a fair-trade mark. This was set up by the Fair Trade Foundation which you were asking about,. And it was set up by CAFOD, Christian Aid, the New Consumer, Oxfam, Traidcraft Exchange, which is the charity side of Traidcraft and the World Development Movement. And it was to look at basic supermarket products really that are sourced from the Third World, and to try and have a standard that you could say, yes, that's been traded fairly. And the idea is that points will be awarded th for which they will pay a, a licence fee . And they will actually be looked at quite closely will individual products. And it won't be for the whole of a c of a company's range, it'll just be for one specific product at a time. So I know when, when the ne the negotiations were originally going on was with Lyons' coffee, for one of their coffees which came from a particular known estate not for the whole range of Lyons' coffees. And er they set out this basic charter of the things that they thought erm were important to fair trade. And part of that is them buying from responsible producers or suppliers,which is looking at the record of the company. Whether there's a boycott against them? Have we had that ? Yes. Oh . Erm whether there's fair wages are paid as part of the and the conditions of employment, including the right to organize. That's something that erm a great many of the multinationals will er try to get round very er and the other, other thing they'll have to pay fair price which reflects the cost of production and the quality of the product, plus a margin for investment and development. Er this was partly because some products multi er go through from plant to supermarket shelf with one company such as bananas, quite often, are produced on a company's plantation. And they grow the bananas, export them, and wholesale them in this country. Other products are bought on the commodity exchanges, like to a large extent tea cocoa and a few other things like Rowntrees buying cocoa from Ghana but now they seem to buy it anywhere that they can get it cheaply. And erm so if they're buying it on the, on the market,th the company should pay a fair price for, for what they've bought. There's also providing financial credit, where necessary, to protect the producer against production uncertainties, and financial exploitation. If you plant a crop, it's quite a long time before it it comes to fruition. If you plant coffee it's about five years before you can harvest any coffee. And erm for a small coffee grower,i it's quite vital that they have some financial credit. And to be a fair traded product, the charter says that erm the company who are selling the products should have an input at that level . There's another one that we haven't got as well. Which equal rewards for men and women. Mm. Encouraging them. One of the things we didn't mention, deliberately, which I, I know Richard said they had a long debate about was child labour. And they deliberately haven't said that it shouldn't be produced by child labour. Which is recognizing that children play a vital r role in a lot of coun in a lot of families. And perhaps only at certain times of the year, especially in agricultural communities. But erm they haven't put a prohibition on about them. The other one, identifying and encouraging environmentally sust sus sustainable production, which is how it's being ? How's it been grown? What were the farming methods? And establishing stable trading relationships on the basis of quality, continuity, mutual support. For what, for anyone who is a small producer or even a medium-sized basic produced commodity, having a stable market is extremely important. To know that there's someone going to buy your crop over a long period of time, or part of your crop, ideally, over a long period of time, does help people to plan ahead. And that's everything really. Just there'll now be a short reflection. Is that what time is it, please? Quarter to nine. Expecting there would be lots of talk about economics, I was wanting to talk about morality,which are nearer to the gospel. Traidcraft itself describes its activities as bringing love and justice into international trade. I think that's the words Traidcraft uses. Which is recognizing that it's not there to start with. Er the first letter of John, chapter four. My dear friends, let us love one another. All love comes from God . If love is the character of God,laid down through the gospel. It's older translation, it's translated as charity, in the prayer book which gives the idea of giving immediate assistance to me not a theoretical future when we're talking about trade, but an immediate . And charity does seem to be relevant, when we're hearing that people now, in our own time are really in a an awful state in parts of the world. But if the the reason this has occurred is because of a poverty amongst rich countries rich people which is causing poverty amongst poor people which is material. Maybe this rich people's poverty is, is a moral poverty. When we think of love, when we try to do something about it, the word that comes into mind then, is justice. That takes on from charity. But it's not really us in Britain who are saying this,people in Britain are saying this anyway. in Brazil the archbishop now in his late eighties I should think was renowned everywhere said that there's a quote here from him on the Traidcraft leaflet. If the affluent countries, East and West, Europe and the U S are willing to pay fair prices to the developing countries for their natural resources, they can keep their aid and relief plans . So whereas aid at present is vital, cos there's people starving to actually put the situation right i it's not a question of aid at all, not a question of relief. It's because the situation is. A person called Jose , who was another man from another part of the world, a man from Brazil, along with and who are two sisters two nuns I mean have, have toured the world promoting base Christian communities. When I heard him speak, he had a lot to say about this. A lot to say about idols. We don't talk about idolatry very much in Britain. He's saying that the material of the West is an idol. And we cause the hunger and poverty, we, as the West, not necessarily as individuals because we insist on a lifestyle that acquires things and in doing that, er we've subverted God. There's another book here, which is th the book we've had the most difficulty in selling. I don't think we've ever sold a copy of this one. It's called The Road to Damascus,Chiros and Conversion and it's a document signed by Christians from all sorts of countries, they all agree with the contents of this. Clause forty nine, Idolatry. Idolatry is a sin of worshipping, or being subservient to someone, or something, which is not God. Treating some created thing as if it were God . It seems people in other countries can see ourselves much better than we are. And it's more than that, mainly because the people in Africa, and Asia and Latin America particularly,a are being sacrificed to the idol. Generation after generation really, but the, the pace is quickening. With the fall of the world commodity prices really. I've only wok woken up to this in the later part of my life, but even then, it's difficult to to put it all together but er these three of them had it more succinctly than I could. About a fortnight ago, the, the a Brazilian bishop, another person from Brazil, came to speak in York. He was secretary of the Brazilian bishops' conference, so he had clearly been in a position, like Jose , this bloke, to test the feeling of people in a wide area. himself travelled throughout his country. I this was bishop 's, that was the man's name, second visit to Britain. In discussion, he said he'd been here once before, and he'd gone to visit the government. And the minister asked him, what is the Church's attitude towards Third World debts? Bishop said, It's a moral, it's a moral problem, problem. The minister said, no it isn't, it's an economic problem. He was very insistent about that th there was no more to be said really. As ou our Western societies morality is an individual one. There's a Traidcraft leaflet here which is a bible study, and has some discussion mo morality. Our individual morality is particularly a section on morality, and that's what concerns us. We don't think of the collective morality, the collective responsibility, in our society, for other people's distress. And that's all the heavy stuff. In the words of the Easter gospel according to John,when that other disci disciple went into the tomb, after Peter, he saw and believed . And it's the same for us also. I think we can overcome it, in the immediate sense. That fair trading will make an immediate impact in a small way because of the reasons we're discussing. And i its, its actual, direct consequence, it's not a theoretical thing. That we're really talking about the re the reign of God, and how in fact God's plan is not in operation with people starving and people having not a future they c they can anticipate. Th I think the fair trading idea is, is in two ways. In the immediate, it's actually a sign of it, a symptom of the kingdom of God breaking out. And at the same time, it's the achievement of it, it's how i how it will come everywhere. Because it's an idea of solidarity. Lastly, I'd like to go back to Jose again. The team, when I met met them, had some banners made by base Christian communities in all parts of the world. This is an appeal for solidarity. They had one from northern Bolivia. Bolivia's probably the poorest country in Latin America. I it's not a it's not something that anyone should look for, that sort of comparison. And on, on this banner i it had what the country produced. I'm afraid I forgot to write it down, except th there was minerals, that was part of its wealth, there's o obviously some other parts of its wealth as well. But what the people who had made the banner were aware of, was that they were exploited, the wealth didn't go to them. And also on the banner was w were some scissors. Jose explained that the scissors weren't for pruning the tree, cos that would just make it stronger. They were to cut at the roots. And it was a belief that to cut at the roots with small scissors would make a difference, because it would have a cumulative effect and that's why I think we can do it in our own society. That er this group wanted to work with other groups which hadn't come to an understanding. And Jose in fact talked er in terms of the poor evangelizing the rich. That was how he put it in his theological terms. And that was probably why I think he showed us that banner. The next stage of what we're doing is trying to take things a stage further on to what action can you take for fair trade? I in Britain we're saying. Yeah. Wh What things could happen now in nineteen ninety three which would make fair trade better. Yeah. M More likely. Yeah. But at an individual le level as well if you want, but no not kind of just it's not a commitment to have to go away and do something next week . So if we go back, just for, for five minutes. which, which quite often it's what people want. Because that, that's going to give us something. But if they actually put that, the ca they do Indicative of things back in the eighteen . We seem to be gathering all sorts of things we don't need. Mm. Microwaves Try to buy more from Traidcraft. That's very important. More regularly, not just We need more Traidcraft outlets. Yes, we do yes. If every supermarket had Traidcraft outlets, people wouldn't be forced to buy it, but at least it would be there. Yes, and I think the prices should be in par. You know so that they don't make other produce cheaper so that. But the prices have got to be more haven't they, if our aim is Yes. to give the money where it's Yes, but they don't put their price . If they have Traidcraft, they don't have something which is cheaper beside it. No, it would have to be a se a separate Traidcraft stall, I think, not the Traidcraft coffee next to the Nestle coffee. Yes. And even so, I think it's a thing. Actually, it probably would be erm comparative. Moira said it'd dropped down, two twenty five to one sixty a packet. So I think it is quite competitive now. Mm. I it is competitive because people are not kind of getting the money that we pay. They are getting less than we are paying. No, I'm saying Traidcraft is more competitive now, Yes, but it is different don't you see, because we are not paying import . Well, I would have thought Traidcraft would be paying people wouldn't you? Well, they are, but it's overall. Things overall in the world are cheaper. You can buy more for your money than ten years ago. Ah, but is this only because people are suffering at the other end? Exactly. If we could all be persuaded to have a little less tea, coffee, chocolate, and spend and pay more for it. And it's the same with clothing erm I don't think the problem is quite so great with clothing is it? Th it's been pinpointed for us that all these lovely tea, coffee, and chocolate which we all adore, is, is one of the things which is causing the greatest distress and unfairness in the world. I think it's also . I mean, cotton and things like this come from the Third World, doesn't it. Some of the clothes, I mean, are definitely cheaper than they were fifteen years ago so I Some of the things that come from China er And also Indian cotton. Which are in fact manufactured by Indians who sell them here very cheaply. I, I mean I used to go to London to buy things erm and you have oh they are even in England. Not to the extent they are in India, they are. So, we've got one question so far. Ask supermarkets to stock fair-traded products. Of course if there's some section on coffee, how are you going to get them to look at Traidcraft? I think it has to be alongside the other. In other words, you won't make a separate section. You'll mix it all up. Mm. Mm. So any other actions suggested? Make sure that you ask those questions before you buy any of the products. If you don't like the answers that you get, don't buy the products. in the market. You go to the market, and I've been to the market, and I've said, where do your grapes come from? And sometimes they said, I don't know. And, well you can keep them. In France they have to say They can't tell me where it comes, pardon? in France they have to say where they've come from. Well, whether they have to in France or not, but I want to know, as a person, whether I am French, English or whatever, I want to know that kind of . As I said boycott. Right. We've got, ask supermarkets to stock the products, ask the questions before buying the products anywhere. Lobby our MPs to get this fair-trade mark legislation through. Yes. That's very important. Pressure on the on the MP is . Pressure on the MP to actually get the fair-trade mark Well, I should think it's more perhaps the erm civil servants than one's own individual M P. the government. Moira was saying the minister was saying oh the it's an economic question, not a moral question. How does one put pressure on civil servants? They're all so anonymous? I mean it's, it's, it's all a isn't it? The government. Erm yes er Denise right. The government. Lobby the government yes. If it's the erm it's the ministers isn't it, not the civil servants. It's very difficult, sometimes I can get butter from Denmark, or Holland or Ireland, and I don't know which one to get, so I just don't know how to go about it. I've no idea. I mean the conditions of labour, are they better in Denmark than in Holland, or Mm. it sounded very . They want a few more minutes. I just don't know. At the end of the explanation, will we be getting coffee ? Yes. Coffee and cocoa. Where do you have to put the cocoa on, there isn't an oven down there? There's no cooker. The microwave. Don't do it in the microwave. It's a fair trade . Don't you er know how to work them, Moira? No. I don't. No, I, I I always thought there was, always thought of y you know, there was nothing that you couldn't work. I've only got a metal jug as well, and that's no use for a microwave. . to talk about . Whether it's on the subject I don't know. Erm something they tell you throughout the , it takes quite a long time. But erm if we could sort of shout out a few of the brilliant ideas. Share them with people. Would you like to start? Erm well we decided that we would have to erm try and live more simply erm that was the only way that er erm this would work. I if the producing countries are going to get more for their products, we're going to have to take less. We're going to have to eat less. Erm we'll have to consider our own lifestyles, and erm try and set a good example. And er be willing to share what we feel about that with other people. Er . I'd like to erm agree with that but we . Er to ask more questions of people, and not . Erm and try and become better informed about what we are buying . And talk to our friends about our purchasing techniques and explain to christian people about why we purchase certain things or don't purchase certain things. Well I think it's absolutely necessary to do this in supermarkets but erm you know that maybe fair trading in our country supermarkets erm are not the only way to shop. And are not a desirable way to shop in the long run. For anybody, I don't think. And erm I've found out in, in our area in South Bank, the local hardware shop has just shut down. And the bloke told me that twenty five corner shops have closed down in South Bank, which is a tiny area, in ten years. And when we're all finally forced to go to you know Tescos for our shopping, I don't think us or Third World countries are going to get much benefit from it. Can I say so from a similar point of view, I knew somebody who used to be a butcher. And erm there are now only twenty five percent of butchers that there were ten years ago as well. Mhm. And we and people don't go to butchers any more. They buy things from the packet prepackaged stuff . Mhm. I it really frightens Th there are no fishmongers at all. I can't remember whose daughter reminded me,market used to be fishmongers all over the place. And we've seen, as well,detrimental impact on the community . Could I make, make a suggestion? Which is that if we take these cards, instead of dropping in one at here there and everywhere and I doubt if anyone will take much notice of one, maybe I'm a bit personally interested in, if I say could we all drop them in at Prestos in Rougier Street? Well I don't mean all, but you know, those who w would do that. I think it would have more impact, don't you? Mhm. And, and it is th one of the few shops in town where you can buy food, where people who haven't got cars, don't go out to Clifton Moor or somewhere, and it, so just a suggestion please that It strikes me if we were to use these cards I forget what the wording is on Patterns, but er if we, dear supermarket manager, we would like you Dear store manager. Sorry? Dear store manager. Right. Mhm. Mhm. Very good. Yes. Er please consider stocking fair-traded products. If it says something like that. I mean it would be possible to specify. It seems far too vague to me does that Yes. Yeah. But like, by saying fair-traded products like Mhm. Well, whatever we want to say. Yeah. I, I think we'd have more effect if, if we'd erm gave them in at the shop where we're known by sight. I mean, I think I'm kno known quite well at b by sight at Sainsburys. I mean I I know various people by sight in the you know who are always lurking around, when you go to sometimes for an exchange or a something, or say you've lost your glasses and haven't found them. You know, I should think somewhere where you are Yeah yeah, where you are story. They say oh we've seen that woman before, you know, in the last five years. And I'm afraid I do shop at Sainsburys, I'm very fond of Sainsburys and I always find them very good and very obliging and very fair and all the rest of that. It's not like . We're combining these two ideas in fact, this would make a very good campaign for a local church wouldn't it, where people would then be doing both all directing at one supermarket . Yeah. Mm. You know, perhaps there's another way of evangelizing it. Just er write an article for a local newspaper. On the back of a postcard it says, you know, write for further information from your, does it give any indication as to what fair trading means? I think it's a pity Erm Mhm. because there are going to be some people who won't take any further steps and erm Er it says, to the customer, if you support fair trading and would like to see Third World farmers having decent wages and working conditions, please sign this coupon. Give it to the manager or assistant or the person on the checkout. Mhm. Well, I think we should add a line , because otherwise we're going to be left with . I know quite a few people who would do that. Just you know . Yeah. There's something else that D did you ask a question? I don't know, were you er motioning at me or Richard? You. There's something else erm Well, we w were just erm w wondering we were puzzling over was h how the poor in this country erm could help. Because it seems that erm it's a luxury for the middle class really to be able to afford Traidcraft erm prices. Erm the poor are only too glad to go to Sainsburys or Tescos where erm tea is half the price. And No but the poor can't go to Tesco stores. Yes, exactly, Tescos is not cheap . You have to have cars. Also, it's not cheap. A few things are cheaper. They d it's They're not cheap, it's an illusion. Well er coffee is but nothing else is. It makes me wonder if one of the things we're Traidcraft is s is quite a lot more. It is, yeah. But you see, neither are corner shop, I mean, we've got a lovely corner shop at the roundabout but the prices packing small cos they're for the elderly and single people and that, and the prices just rocket you know so high. I, I go because I, I feel I must support the shop, but I couldn't possibly do my family shopping there. sort of. You know, you only . In Kwik Save, Nescafe is dearer than Traidcraft coffee. Oh. Really? Well, Traidcraft coffee's very cheap at the moment. And I know that the Tetleys and P G Tips tea bags are dearer as well. Yes, I don't think anything could be cheaper than Traidcraft coffee, no. I it seems that somebody who's keen maybe could do a bit of price comparison. M me and Moira n never have done. Kwik Save sort of dropped out of the sky. Cos it landed on our corner shop. Right. My impression is that the cocoa from Traidcraft is very much the same price, as when I last bought it from the supermarket when you first started stocking Mhm. it up. Sorry, cocoa. Cocoa. Yeah, that's good In the market So why are things so cheap in the supermarkets? very reasonable as well. Things, why are things cheaper in the supermarket, in comparison to Traidcraft? It's because the multinationals are buying so much er quantity. And that is Well there's quantity really what the crunch is, the price should be, they shouldn't be able to be cheaper. And that's really what is needed for the concept of size you know. They wouldn't be able to, to buy things so cheaply. Yes. When they can't buy cheaply here, they Yes. they go somewhere else where it is cheaper. Yes. I mean they've been doing that for half a century or more, only now it's getting more and they can't . So even when we buy Traidcraft, unless it is cheaper than it was ten years ago, it shouldn't really be, should it? No, it shouldn't. It means that people are given less money than ever. That's true. You said Traidcraft was trying to keep its prices up. Do you mean what it paid the coffee grower? Mm. Mhm. I mean Because we're definitely paying less, I'm paying thirty five P less for a packet of instant than I was even eighteen months ago. Well, in theory up to an extent you are the answer which means that we have to buy less things, eat less, and , because we are you know that, I mean, I mean n I don't want to, I mean I'm not talking to anyone in particular, but we have a lot of very very big people and . I was about to say seventy percent of women and forty six percent of men are overweight. Yes. Er we are eating much more than we need. I mean what about apparently we eat more chocolate than any other country. Mhm. Do we need this chocolate? And if, if we are not spending that money on all this er extra, we could buy the food at the price we should be buying it. T to some extent I'm sure that's true. That is where the complicity erm it applies to clothes, it applies to all sorts. We are all so throwaway society you know. Mm. Yes that . So you know, in time of crisis, I mean if it goes any cheaper, they'll get less and less money. Erm D does does this take us to Cafe Direct? Mhm. You were saying that the, the reason why the multinationals sell coffee very cheaply is that they buy in bulk. And Cafe Direct, which is this one,which is the great hope of lots of people It's a very nice coffee. Very good coffee. Mhm. Very good. er er is an attempt to follow some of the same processes, bulk buying, and erm to reduce the costs,wh which are there no matter who gets paid for what,the there are some costs. And it's considered th that they would be able to put in larger orders by buying in bulk. And the, the excess then wou would, would go to the producers so's it wouldn't be a another multinational. So how do you deal with the middle people with fair trading, and with the Third World goods? Erm why I am saying this because I have erm I know young people work with Guatemalans. And er so she goes to Guatemala, and she goes for my er one of my daughters a wedding present, and she er a lovely dress, and she bought it in Guatemala for thirty pounds, she . Er if you go to Liberty's in London, the very same thing is ninety pounds ninety five. So who is getting all that extra money in between? So what happens in, in the profit stage? W with Cafe Direct,i it goes, the direct contact with the producers, which are in fact groups of cooperatives, erm I think that's right isn't it? Yes. And, and that's part of the direct in the Cafe Direct. Th the there are, there are of people. Ah. So it's producer to Traidcraft? Mhm. Well, it's not only Traidcraft. Cafe Direct is a consortium of four different organizations, one of which is Traidcraft, another is Oxfam, and th there're two other fair-trading organizations as well, called Equal Exchange and Twin Trading. Mhm. And so i i it's the four organizations together,a and they have in fact come together in order to, to be able to put larger orders, and to pay in advance, so that people are able to budget. Which is completely different to how the multinationals carry on. Mm. Er a at present, the, the coffee is all Latin American, or Central American but i i it's intended and it's all ground coffee at present it's intended it will include African coffee as well . Mhm. And it's also intended it will become instant maybe at the year end and then be decaffeinated but that that is more in the distance because of the unit cost in, in the process. Er it costs so much, nobody's got enough money to, to put the money up for it to erm be at a price which would be affordable, unfortunately. I think that's what it amounts to. But th there's a s a strong campaign to have Cafe Direct taken by supermarkets and there's a lot of people putting a lot of energy into this and, and at present it's, it's, it's showing those results. If you don't like supermarkets, maybe the results aren't so wealthy. A a and I don't. But leaving that aside i i it started off with the, the Co-op in Scotland, and also Safeways. Now it's been extended to Waitrose, which are a large chain in the south of England. Now Asda are taking it. Safeways, I think, are taking it in other parts of the country. I'm not sure it's got to the York area yet. They were making a decision at the end of March. But And th there's a lot of, for Sainsburys the, the feeling being that if Sainsburys also agreed to take it, that lots of other, if there are any others, would follow suit cos everybody seems to look at Sainsburys and see what they're doing. As far as I know, Sainsburys haven't yet taken that decision they've they've hung on the brink for more than six months now. Nine months. Oh well, all the more reason for the postcards . Mhm. because they, they've shown they are susceptible to, to encouragement. With Waitrose down south and Sainsburys round the corner they have to. Well,Wa Waitrose have taken it, like all the supermarkets, they've taken it on trial. And, and if they think they aren't going to get anything out of it,th this is their morality, it's the morality of economics Absolutely. Absolutely. and, and they'll ditch it. Is there any point taking it to a local Sainsburys? Don't they all have to follow national policy? I think so. Then would it be better to send it to some central Well, I, I think the local manager would would pass it on if he or she got lots . Well, they do sell, for instance they sell organic stuff, depending on the area and they Mhm. get, they get it from er Yes, that's true. Some things are sold that aren't called . Charlie, is it roasted and packed in South America? That's a bit of a hard question. Is it Roast? No, but the, the instant coffee will be. They're looking to have freeze-dried from . Er Traidcraft's other coffee, which we haven't got any of here, it's ground coffee, is processed in Germany wh which isn't anything to write home about. There's only about one percent of coffee i is roasted in its country of origin. Mhm. But I know you said there was a big erm tariff against it, but on the other hand they do get a lot of more benefits from it, like er well, the erm the price that's paid for a lot more, and, and it gives a lot more employment. Mhm. I it's part of the reason,i is that the processing just doesn't exist in, in countries. That i i it exists in the western world. Mm. So the instant coffee, the only two fair-traded instant coffees, I haven't put them out tonight, I say, here. The these are the only two, I think, processing Nicaragua. companies,wh wh which are not of the western world, that we've ever come across. Th th this is Tanzania. Tanzania. T Tanika, which is a good cause,and, and Encafe is, is produced in Nicaragua, although th er whether th whether it's still being produced, I'm not absolutely certain Yes because er some of this quite old. It is still. It is? Nicaragua still produces its own coffee. And the reason why there aren't any others is because I don't think there's, there's any other processing equipment. I don't know what Oxfam does for Africa. The there . There is erm so there is processing equipment . It tends to be to be for local production rather than for export. Mhm. Or it goes into the very cheap coffees here and erm and no er what do you call it, Kwik Save sell some coffee and chicory mixture, which is forty four pence for a jar . And that must have some extremely dubious coffee in it . W we forgot the notices at the beginning. H have we got a any other business then? Yes. So if there's any other business then we could, it's going to have to be fairly quick. Before that . Next er a fortnight from now, Dave and talking about Ah. Yes. Erm they are two Americans who've, who are involved with working in, in urban er aging and provision for aging, geriatricians. And they both work, in their own part of the world, I've forgotten exactly where in the United States they, they work, erm a fair bit with support groups within America and they, they're coming to talk . Er two weeks tonight. Peter and Gayle . . Right okay, so th that's a fortnight. I do we haven't got a programme out, because I haven't yet. Erm, I tried to ring this lady. Were you going to contact ? Er y no, I'm not saying you did Erm erm But did you say you would? I don't remember saying I would, but I will do if you like. Erm yeah. Erm She wouldn't be there next no, not next week. It's the week after. . And you said that on twenty first of June, Stanley , was Yeah, erm I haven't had a reply from Stan yet, he's probably been away over Easter. Oh, I see. I, I thought we'd, you know And his particular thing would be erm things especially like bananas and the erm barriers to trade when the E C becomes united. You know Single European Act or whatever. He, he he's going to talk about Jamaica you say? Well, about the Caribbean, er but with particular reference to what the new European unity law will, what effect it'll have on trade in that part of the world. So that means until we've heard from ,one of them, we can't sort of ascertain finally the, the, the programme for the next few weeks. But best to remind you that on the tenth of May, we've got Jerry coming. I've written to him, I've not heard from him yet suggesting you know er say that we'd like to have a seminar afternoon. But what I would like to know is, any of you know for certain that you want to come to either of the parts of those that day, in the evening or the afternoon? I'd be glad if you'd let me know, because we, we want to know yet the numbers, and how many we're going to get. further questioning. was strangled at her house in the Peartree area of Derby. Her body was found on Tuesday night. Two years ago her husband burned to death in a mystery fire in the same house. Yesterday detectives arrested a man and a woman in connection with Mrs death. Meanwhile two people are being questioned in connection with the murder of a Northampton man. Peter Howell was stabbed just two hours after being released from policy custody. His body was discovered on Saint Andrews Road. He was well known in the local drugs scene. Police say they've arrested a thirty eight year old man and a twenty six year old woman. One of the region's universities is to spend thousands of pounds installing the latest high tech computer equipment. Derby University is one of the newest in the country. Hundreds of students have just begun their first term and computers are essential in just about every subject. Now the university has decided to spend one hundred and fifty thousand pounds installing more than a hundred of the latest computers. Students from all faculties will have access to the machines at the Keddleston Road site. Staff say the computers will be used for everything from report writing to course registration. Hundreds of car enthusiasts turned up today for the South Lincolnshire Motor Show. It was rough going for some of the exhibitors as they put a new four wheel drive model through its paces. Meanwhile the public had the chance to try out their driving skills on a slightly smaller scale. The show continues tomorrow. That's the news so far we're back tomorrow lunchtime and don't forget to put your clocks back one hour we all get an extra hour in bed tomorrow morning. For now though from all us goodb good evening. Central Weather sponsored by Legal and General. Good evening. Cloud has been affecting most parts of the Midlands today but not quite as much as up there in Scotland although that's gonna make a bit of an impression on us tomorrow. For tonight though patchy cloud'll feed back across the region from the northeast. There might be some mist floating around down in the southwestern part but generally those temperatures will be above freezing. This dry pattern will continue into tomorrow but the cloud I've told you about in Scotland will wander down towards us bringing some thicker cloud for a while. But generally a dry and fairly bright Sunday. Bye bye. the British housing market. First, new supplements, price cuts, and free C Ds, all attempts to boost circulation. But who's going to win the newspaper war? Six o'clock this morning at a West London newsagent, they're unpacking the revamped Independent on Sunday. It's the latest foray in a fierce Fleet Street circulation war. Which is costing newspapers tens of millions of pounds in investment. With extra section and money back guarantee, the Independent's also gone up in price becoming the most expensive weekend paper. This Sunday first of all, the Sunday newspaper will get quite a lot of colour into its pages and will be expanded, and secondly the daily paper, starting next Tuesday, will become a two section newspaper with about twenty wee twenty pages a week extra. While the Independent's raising prices, Rupert Murdoch's cutting them at the Sun and the Times. Fuelling market competition. This is the most competitive, choice ridden anarchic industry. Er newspaper industry in the world. There isn't another country where you get eleven daily newspapers published by seven or eight different publishers, every single morning. Today also saw the launch of the Mail on Sunday's new up-market tabloid review. And next Saturday, the Daily Mail's going to have one too. We are going to see a supplement war and only the strongest and the most confident and the best produced will really come out of these in a in a good way. These fashionable tabloid supplements are one of the key weapons in this circulation war. And whether it's new sections, price cutting, more sports pages or simply giving away compact discs, everybody's at it, offering their readers better and better value for money. The problem is, the competition's become so fierce, it's pushing up newspaper's costs at an alarming rate. For some, this burst of competitive expansion seems bound to end in tears. A major reason papers are fighting so haar for readers is the decline in sales as families like the buy fewer papers. Hello. Hi. How is it going? Fine thanks. It's been most noticeable in the Sunday market. But since nineteen eighty seven, daily paper sales are down by more than a tenth. Changing working habits and increased competition for leisure time mean that many people feel they simply don't have the time any more. During the week I certainly buy fewer papers now than previously. Perhaps it's got to do with the fact that I have er four children, I really do not have the time to sit down and read papers in depth. I work a very long hours. Er it means generally that I'm coming home quite late, so as far as a daily paper's concerned, I'm really not very much interested. But the most worrying trend for newspapers is the sharp decline in young readers. Over the past twenty years, the number who look at papers has fallen by more than a quarter. Partly due to television. I read a paper about once a fortnight. And if I do read a paper it won't be for for very long because all the stuff it's got in it I've seen it one telly or heard on the radio. In my family we always read the Sunday papers. Always. And the erm quality papers during the week. But I have been quite fascinated to see that the youngsters today do not seem to have the same interest in reading the paper. They read the cartoons but after that the reading seems to be fairly limited. Now there's a new threat looming, the prospect of value added tax on newspapers in the budget. It's already causing howls of outrage from the industry. It will be devastating whatever happens. If the industry absorbs it, it will wipe out virtually all profits. If it doesn't absorb it it will cut horrendously into circulation figures in my view. Because there's never been a time before when all newspapers have gone up simultaneously. We've had to cut prices of some of our newspapers in order to prevent a decline in circulation. Er and I suspect some of our competitors may have to do so as well. That's a very odd moment for the government to load on up to seventeen and a half percent er there which would er threaten I think, the existence of a number of newspapers, particularly in the provinces but also possible at the national level and that would be a great shame. The Times' price was slashed by a third last month to boost flagging circulation. Rivals say it's costing the Murdoch empire millions, when the Times is already loss making. The Independent's even reported News International for predatory pricing. The only way you can make sense of it is that it's it's design to get a competitor out of the market. And as we're the one small Independent group which has no huge er group wrapped round us, then we're clearly the most vulnerable. News International denies that's its aim. And although Times sales are up about one hundred thousand in a month, it doesn't seem to have had a big impact on the Independent. The real target, News International says, is the highly profitable middle market. The Mail and Express are very different newspapers from the Times, but nevertheless the top fractions of their readerships are very very high quality readers. And I think we've seen a good number of those erm from the Telegraph, the Mail and the Express, going to the Times. Because the Times price cut was so large, no-one's sure if its gains are due to the publicity, or it's proved wrong the conventional wisdom about quality newspaper pricing. In a sense, the Jury's still out on the Times cos you'd have to look at it over say a three of four month period. Erm but I think it's we've looked at historical trends and you find that the quality newspapers, the up-market newspapers, they're actually not particularly price sensitive. The Mail and its sister Sunday paper are broadening their appeal with up-market news supplements. A huge investment for Associated Newspapers. it expects them to lose a staggering twenty million pounds in the first year. But Associated Newspapers reckons it's well worth it. I believe that you that you must never stand still in newspapers, you have to keep committing, you have to keep expanding and you halve to go with trends and there is a trend for this kind of publication. Not just in erm the world of advertising but in in the readership as well. We've seen it in the er erm broadsheet up-market papers. Erm I think the time is right for a big broad middle market paper to have such a publication. The Mail's big rival, the Express is doing much the same. Trying to attract the readers from the quality market, while the broadsheet papers nibble at the middle ground. If you look at the Sunday qualities, they're very much erm popularizing some of their content. We've seen the Sunday Times for example, introducing horoscopes and more articles on the Royal Family. If you look at the mid-markets erm for example the Sunday Express has recently run a erm a feature on the French philosopher Louis . Which would have Previously would have been the preserve only of papers like the Independent or the Times or the or the Guardian. I think the er figures also suggest in a way that For the struggling independent papers, adding papers is aimed at securing the top of the market. Strapped for cash and investment, circulation of daily and Sunday has slid alarmingly. The reliance is aimed to reverse that. broadsheet because we can display photographs much more effectively on broadsheet and of course we'll have colour. With the group only breaking even, having lucrative colour advertising is crucial. And the higher cover prices will boost annual revenue by four million pounds if sales hold up. Helping pay for the new promotion. At premium prices, the independent papers are opting firmly for the high ground. The new Independent on Sunday, are you getting the full story? The long term trend is that it's actually going to be more room at the top of the market I think. And that's very good from our point of view. Rasing prices when others are cutting is a bold, high risk strategy. Butt what's at stake is whether the Independent has to raise capital again, and whether it could do so without someone else taking control. Associated Newspapers admit, they might be interested. And other potential investors include Carlton Communications and the Mirror. But Sir David English says, they'd want control and then, only at the right price. You ask how interested we are, we're interested. I suppose we we would run the Independent as a professional publication, but it would be run at a loss for a very long time before you could turn it around. And we'd only be interested i with that scenario that you could virtually er get the Independent at a song otherwise it wouldn't be worth having. The question that is raised about the Independent, is not whether it exists, but who owns it. What the Independent very badly needs is very solid professional newspaper management er to go along with the good franchise which it has created erm and a proper owner who can actually er do what all of us in newspapers have to do from times to times which is back a promising newspaper. With so many papers pinning so much on these costly strategies to lure in new readers, will it all add up? Newspapers make their money from combination of cover price revenue and what they bring in from selling advertising space. So it's the behaviour of both consumers and advertisers which will determine the winners and losers. Advertisers love the new sections because they provide choice and make it easier to target advertising at specialist audiences. But with so many new sections being launched, is there enough advertising to go round? Although advertising is picking up after the recession, most in the industry only expect fairly modest growth. I think what we're probably gonna see is a redistribution of the cake, but not much growth in that cake. And and I think we might see it in one of two ways. We might see advertisers that currently use black and white advertising space move more into colour to take on or or make use of these er other sections, these review sections. And we might see movement within the colour segments of a newspaper. I E from the supplements into the review sections. At the end of the day, is there going to be enough new advertising to go round? I think w we may well see some kind of shake out. Whether it's gonna take two years or twelve months I don't know. Equally important in deciding the outcome of the circulation war, is how consumers like the 's react. something to do with water Sonia? Yeah. Like everyone, they appreciate better value for money but as the newspapers have got bigger and bigger, they have found they have bought fewer. A number of years ago, I would have bought two papers on a Sunday, the Observer and the Sunday Times. But it was too much reading, really couldn't get through it all. If you look at the industry as a whole, there's obviously the problem that by producing so much more content that people are are simply not going to have the time to get through it. So as a result, there's a danger that many readers many regular readers, might buy a newspaper less frequently. So move from buying it every d every weekday say to moving it f to to buying it four days a week. Everyone in the industry agrees that quality will be the key to success and of course they all say that means them. Deep pockets are going to count as well. But there's no doubt this fierce circulation battle is going to claim casualties. For some, that could mean heavy losses for others it may be more serious. Workplace stress is sweeping across industry. It's costing the country more than seven billion pounds a year, with millions of working days lost. Are British firms reacting too slowly to a problem that could one day land them in court? I didn't realize at the time when I was getting headaches, migraines. You know real bad headaches. And er terrible indigestion. Well indigestion, it was terrible pains down my chest just as though you'd swallowed glass and every now and again it would sort of stab at you. And er I wasn't eating right because I just didn't feel hungry I didn't bother about food I just seemed to keep going and keep going. Keep taking the paracetamols and the blooming Rennies. And then er I just completely broke down one night, I just couldn't take any more pressure. Farm work means long hours and low pay but it's a great improvement on last year for David Smith. Then he was ploughing a very different furrow. Working in a Staffordshire plastics factory. He'd moved up from shop floor worker to production manager but the firm hit hard times an the receivers were called in. David found himself caught between the demands of the receivers on the one hand and his old boss, who stayed on as a consultant. I was trying to keep the workforce happy and keep every body in a job. Trying to keep our old boss happy and trying to keep the receivers happy but it just doesn't work like that, you can't keep everybody happy. David's life is now in balance with time to follow to the country pursuits like shooting he loves. For him, the low point came with a telephone call from the factory. telling of yet more problems. He broke down on the bed at home and sobbed uncontrollably. He left the firm soon after, one of thousands of victims of occupational stress. Did you ever think of suing the firm for the stress problems that you'd been caused. No I never thought about suing the the No I never thought I didn't realize you could anyway. No I didn't know you could. I wasn't advised or nobody mentioned it. That may soon change. Lawyer Mark Scoggins advises some of our biggest insurance companies on workplace liabilities, he believes workers could soon be able to sue for stress damage, costing British firms and their insurers, millions. Thirty years ago, employers didn't take seriously the risk of being sued for deafness. Ten years ago, they didn't take seriously the risk of being sued for passive smoking. It cost them a fortune in both cases. If they ignore the risk of workplace stress claims, it may cost them another fortune. Delegates from some of the biggest companies in the land gather at a Confederation of British Industry conference on health at work. Workplace stress is on the increase, and ironically it's now being widely recognized that companies own efforts to cut staff and become leaner and fitter, must take part of the blame. At the end of the day we are asking so much more of our employees nowadays than we've ever done before. We ask them to be multi- skilled, we ask them to use new technology, we ask them to be obsessed as they should be with quality add customer service. Those trends can cause stress if they're not properly managed. Every year in Britain, ninety million working days are lost as a result off undue stress in the workplace. That's thirty times more than through strikes. Most British firms even if they recognize the problem, don't do anything about it. But in the wake of legal precedents from America, the prospect of workers suing their employers for stress related illnesses could soon be a real one. In that case, big firms and their insurers would have to sit up and take notice or pay the consequences. the canning line at Scottish and Newcastle's lager brewery in Manchester. it's one of the sites where Professor Cary Cooper, a world authority on stress, carried out Britain's biggest ever company wide stress study. he believes it's important to distinguish between stress and pressure. Stress is not pressure. Pressure is stimulating, it gets you moving and achieving things but when pressure exceeds you ability to cope, then you're in the stress arena. And that means that you're doing maladaptive things. Either it's causing ill health or it's affecting your relationships. Stress at work is costing industry billions. Official estimates include the value of lost production through absenteeism when stress makes people ill. And the cost of sickness benefits. But there are other factors. I think the bottom line cost for U K P L C er the Health and Safety Exe Executive estimates this to be seven and a half billion pounds a year. I think that's an under-representation of it. Because what we don't have is people turning up to work because they're afraid they'll lose their job during these recessionary times. They turn up to work but are so stressed out they can't perform, there's no added value to the product. The cost in my view is probably in the order of ten percent of Gross National product. Your workload? what about it? It's too much. I can't cope. A training video made for Zeneca, the pharmaceutical group recently demerged from I C I. With stress management courses like this, it's one of the few big companies trying to tackle the problem. Can't cope eh? Never mind, we'll find something for you. Of course it will mean a drop in salary but you needn't worry about the extra stress that goes with promotion because there won't be any promotion for you ever again . The idea's to teach managers to spot the symptoms of stress early. And know how to deal with them. The courses have cost Zeneca a hundred thousand pounds so far but the company believes to ignore the problem, particularly at executive level, would be costlier still. There is the obvious cost if people are away ill. We know that er stress er does cause exacerbation of other illnesses and er people can be away for that sort of reason. But on top of that, if people are under undue stress, they make mistakes. And making mistakes in important contracts if they involve w hundreds of millions of business can be very expensive indeed. The Thresher wines and spirits warehouse at Dunstable. Part of the Whitbread brewing group. here they believe the problem has to be tackled at the lower levels of the organization. That's because people on the shop floor suffer more from stress as they've much less control over what they're doing than those in the executive suite. So these warehousemen are among fifteen Whitbread staff signed up for what's called an employee assistance program or E A P. Any time Thresher staff have a problem in or out of work, they can call an outside consultancy, focus. Good morning Focus employee assistance, can I help you? E A Ps originated in America and typically cost a company fifteen to twenty pounds per head every year. But the bottom line savings through reduced staff turnover can be much greater. We estimate that it costs about fourteen thousand pounds to to train er and and recruit our our management staff. Erm now if you lose one of those people cos we we put a lot of emphasis on you know, high quality training, erm then that money is just wasted. And er fourteen thousand pounds will pay for an awful lot of employee assistance. But do you know that it's actually saved you from losing any of these employees. Yes I I have er our management in inns erm believe that it is one of the major factors which is helping them to reduce their management turnover. And if you let's suppose we save save you know, ten managers, I mean that's going to be a hundred and forty thousand pounds. One of Whitbread's restaurant T G I Fridays. Ian Anderson is a long way from his aim of getting all parts off the group to enrol on the E A P scheme. After five years, only a quarter of Whitbread's workers are included. Today he is trying to get T G I's twelve hundred staff on board. But it's tough to persuade cost conscious managers like T G I's Alison Finnegan, the expense is justified. So Ian, in terms of my selling this into my executive, bottom line tangibility's going to be a real issue. Yeah. What are the real erm success criteria measurement criteria that that we can really see. It's difficult to measure in precise terms but having this employee assistance programme I think will help you attract staff, it'll certainly help you retrain staff T G I's has now been persuaded but companies like these trying to deal with workplace stress are very much the exception. In recessionary times most British firms have had other priorities. It is very difficult to you know persuade boards there to in to put money into the start-up of a an employee assistance programme. Erm and what er I would argue and certainly do argue internally in Whitbread is that this should be seen as an investment. And that the the return from the investment in the employee assistance programme will be many many er much much more than it would be er the actual cost of running it. Oh hi . Hello how are you? Fine how are you? I'm fine At UMIST in Manchester, Professor Cary Cooper believes there's one way to really make more firms take the matter seriously. he believes cumulative stress which builds up over time, should be classified as an industrial injury for which people can claim compensation. As with traumatic stress, the sort that can happen when you witness a bomb explosion or serious accident. We have accepted for a long time that traumatic stress incidents are the basis of an industrial injury claim. The larger number of claims and a larger problem out there is with the cumulative trauma. The building up of job insecurity, the building up of the stress of a bad boss. Of a blocked career. And so on. Those are the bigger problems and in my view, those are real industrial injuries, costing a lot of money. And should be treated as an industrial injury. San Francisco California. In some American states, the idea of suing your employer for the effects of stress is a well established fact of life. Here when a worker suffers mental of physical problems as a result off stress at work, the first thing he or she does is reach for his lawyer. The number of mental stress claims has increased more than tenfold over the past decade. That's far faster than any other type of workplace injury claim. The cost to California business has now reached seven hundred and fifty million dollars. That's half a billion pounds every year. one of those claims is from John Grainger, a former manager at a glass bottle factory in Oakland. He found the escalating pressure of trying to solve a string of production problems there, got too much. He's since suffered from lack off concentration and has been virtually unable to work. The company's already agreed a health care and pensions package. Now he's off with wife Donna to see his lawyer Mike Gerson to check progress on the legal case being pursued under California's worker's compensation laws. There is a possibility that I may er receive a oh an award of maybe fifteen thousand. Er with the possibility of a maximum award of two hundred and twenty four dollars a week for life. Erm I've been off work in excess of five years now er add my income has been very very small and whatever award I get will never go ahead and compensate me or my wife for what I've been through. Er you're entitled to go through some sort of training programme Proving the effects of stress and who's to blame can be difficult, though Mike Gerson had little problem in Mr Grainger's case. It was simply a matter of getting at least two doctors to agree. It's based on medical fact add and medical evidence based on er factual evidence reviewed by physicians. Er psychiatry has come a long way and er certain diagnostic st studies and diagnostic tests are taken of the individual erm and the doctors conclude whether or not the the work contributed to the problem or not. The launch of President Clinton's much vaunted health care plan with its ambitious aim of affordable health care for all. I believe as strongly as I can say that we can reform the costliest and most wasteful system on the face of the earth without enacting new broad based taxes. Because it's been linked to so many other illnesses like heart disease and ulcers, stress is thought to indirectly account for as much as a third of all U S health-care costs. Rising stress claims have also been bad news for big employers like Wells Fargo Bank, the California institution which echoes back to the stage coach era. So the state has no had to tighten up the law to cut the cost. Faced with premiums of twelve million dollars next year, Wells Fargo's even planning to go without compensation insurance. Funding employee claims itself. I would say that most insured employers in California have experienced an increase of probably double over the last five years in premiums. Erm a lot of employers are looking at self funding because the m They can manage their own money and it's much more efficient to do so and then they also have a lot more control over the management of the claims themselves because they select their own management corporation. And they can manage teem internally. So it's simply too expensive to pay the insurance premium? Yes it can be. Some American firms like this San Francisco based bakery company Just Deserts, have realized that a more visionary approach may be required to combat the stress problem. Going above and beyond what's already been tried in Britain. Here they're trying to literally redesign people's jobs. To try and reduce the potential for stress to build up in the first place. Physical strain often leads to mental stress so the company's eliminated some awkward repetitive tasks. Director Barbara Radcliffe showed me one off the old processes. Well here is hand scooping a cake batter. Er as you can see, the wrist action that she does is very difficult erm stressful, we do it many times a day. And she's elevated the bowl so that it's not hurting her back but generally this ar this function is very hard on the wrists and on the back. This is how they now do it. Here we have Brian using a depositor er to get this batter into the pans. You may think this is a productivity issue but in fact erm our purpose here is to save stress on the individual. And does it actually do that? Yes I think that it does. Just the physical stress with the elbow, the wrist The wrist and the back, the lifting. there's still lifting involved as you can see. But it's a lot easier. But it's much easier. in addition, Just Deserts now rotates jobs more frequently, holds employee exercise sessions and carries out regular opinion surveys of staff to find out what changes they want made. It's also hired to new supervisors to increase training and ease managerial stress. It's all helped cut accidents at work and stress claims. It's allowed us to maintain er costs of of our worker's compensation insurance, erm our estimated premium is somewhere around four hundred and thirty five thousand dollars. Erm we have a discount currently about twenty percent. This has allowed us to keep that discount and work toward perhaps improving that discount. So your costs in insurance are much lower than many other comparable firms? Yes. We've managed to keep our costs in line where others have seen theirs skyrocket. Back in Britain, there are those who believe an American style legalistic approach to problems of workplace stress could soon be coming over here too. Employers have a statutory duty to provide a safe workplace and it's only a matter of a judge's interpretation to decide that that should include mental as well as physical health. I mean I've no doubt that my health suffered as a result of the the conditions that I worked under and I think Former junior doctor Chris Johnstone's pioneering the legal approach by taking his old employer, Bloomsbury Health Authority to court, backed by the British medical Association's Chris Finlon. He'd had to work well over a hundred hours a week for weeks on end. I was injured Mm. as a result of the conditions that I worked under. Mm. From er re repeated stress repeated strain of of continuous long periods of sleep deprivation. Dr Johnstone says, the principle behind this important test case is a relatively straightforward one. It's it's on the basis that any employer has a duty of care to employees and what I mean by that is that er an employer has a responsibility to not work employers er er employees under conditions that that are known to be unsafe. Erm the the the expression has been used, if you don't like the heat in the kitchen, get out. But of your kitchen workers are working under conditions of such such great heat that that that they're being burnt by it and and this can be avoided then employers have got a legal obligation to to to sa to make safe conditions. The government's watching the outcome of this case and is now taking mental stress at work very seriously. As Health Secretary Virginia Bottomley told the C B I's health conference. careful development of company mentalness programmes can allow many of those issues to be addressed sensibly and sensitively. Early recognition as I say of mental illness in an employee and early treatment is better for both the company and the employee. Business can't afford the cost Within the next few weeks, guidelines to employers on best practice will be issued both from Mrs Bottomley's department and from the Health and Safety Executive. City lawyer mark Scoggins believes these guidelines will be highly significant. Even those they won't be legally binding. They'll mean ignorance of best practice will no longer be a defence for companies in any future legal action by an employee. That means, any such claims will be much more likely to succeed. Traditionally, the pattern erm in the pattern goes in a particular way. there is research, there is interest, there is then guidelines from the Health and Safety Executive. As soon as those are published, employers are put on notice that there are steps they really ought to be taking. From then until the first claims coming in, anything between five and ten years. At T G I Friday's they're preparing for another busy day's trading. The idea of being sued by stressed out workers is something most employers find very unwelcome. Surprisingly though some like Whitbread back the principle. Despite the difficulties and potential cost. I don't see any reason why they shouldn't be able to sue i if it can be proved that er the employer has caused undue stress on on an employee. Er but it's a very new area. Erm I mean even in in in America where there are some claims coming through now, particularly in California, I mean i i they are still finding it extremely difficult to prove. I've had first hand er experience of the States because I've worked there for a couple of years. And I would be the last person to advocate that we follow the American practice of litigation er to the extremes that they pursue it in the States. Er but the fact that people can sue their employers if they are suffering from stress, is a reality in the States. I don't see it erm becoming an issues in an organization such as our own because er we have recognized its er potential harmful effects and have taken steps to counter it. The word relax is the signal to instantly release our tension. The Zeneca stress course ends with special relaxation exercises. The efforts companies like this are making, may help their defence is stress claims do materialize. Firms that try to ignore the problem could have no defence at all. Costing teem and their liability insurers dear. Hold your breath, now sit forward a couple of inches and now tense up all over the body, tighter, tighter. Just hold it. And relax. To release that tension. If employers ignore advice and subsequently it emerges that it was a real problem, that steps should have been taken, that research elsewhere showed it to be a reasonable system to look after employees mental health, then the scale is potentially enormous. Certainly of of the size of of the desn deafness claims that we had in the nineteen eighties and will continue to have for the rest of this er of this century. So we're talking about tens or hundreds of millions of pounds. The theoretical potential is is of that order. Zeneca's laboratories in Cheshire. few British companies are yet following the example set here. Soon though, it may not be a matter off enlightened management to tackle the stress problem, so much as commercial necessity. If the housing market is some kind of barometer for the rest of the economy, it may be time for a mile sigh of relief. There's not talk of the market bottoming out. But is it a false dawn. In recent years, nothing has twisted and turned quite like the British housing market. it's a tale easily told. This is the house that Jack bought. This is the boom that padded the price of the house that Jack bought. This is the bust that exploded the boom that padded the price of the house that Jack bought. This is the chap that lost his job because of the car that Jack didn't buy because of the fall in the price of the house that Jack bought. This is the house market flat on its back because of the boom that caused the bust that lost the jobs that paid for the loans that bought the house that Jack bought. Well that dreary tale may be over the worst now. If the latest figures from Britain's biggest building society are to be believed. The Halifax says that in September the average price of a house in this country was up by one percent on the same time last year. The first time there's actually been a year on year rise since the beginning of nineteen ninety one. The trouble is there are all sorts of qualifications to statistics like these. How real are they? The Halifax is but one among many lenders, the second biggest society, the Nationwide actually reported a fall in prices in September, on the very day the Halifax said they'd risen. And in a market actually made up of thousands of distinct locations, an average house price is something that exists only in the statistics. But just as the housing market quivers to life, along comes a new threat to house prices and another axe for the mortgage lenders to grind. As the budget looms, the chancellor seems to be looking again at the feasibility of raising money for the government, by ending the tax relief on mortgages of up to thirty thousand pounds. Sudden moves from the government can cause terrible trouble in the housing market, in this case fr first time buyers faced with bigger bills. When Chancellor Nigel Lawson stopped double mortgage tax relief in the Summer of nineteen eighty eight, he caused a frantic scramble to buy homes that proved to be the final boom before the housing bubble burst. Chancellor Kenneth Clarke will have to tread more warily if he isn't to destabilize the housing market which has only touched bottom. Underlying all this is a more fundamental problem, during the heady nineteen eighties, the British home owner positively salivated at the idea of the monthly advance in the so called value of his or her property. It was an amazing spectacle, a country not just unworried by but positively enjoying inflation. The house price collapse of the last few years has been a terrible dose of cold turkey for the home owning classes, but has it been a long enough agony to drive out the idea that there's something inherently beneficial about rising house prices. When next they start going up month by month, will the headlines trumpet, Good news for home owners? Or will the trend be seen for what it really is? A serious threat to economic stability. We could be back to the boom that led to the crash that lost the job that paid for the house that Jack bought. Many successful shops seminars too. The topics discussed included how to attract new volunteers, how to make the most of the window, the shop layout, how Save The Children spend the money and oh the list goes on. They were all very enjoyable and useful seminars. If you attended the lunchtime fringe meeting on shops you probably had even more food for thought. Now looking for the future, is there an opportunity on the shop front, for further growth? Here's a mini report.. Welcome to Save The Children in Sutton Coldfield where children from school have taken over the shop for a day. school is a big supporter of the Save The Children Fund. Princess Anne is the president of the charity and she visited the school three years ago for the golden jubilee. The children running the shop today are all aged eight and from the third year at school, but how much do they know about what the shop does. Erm, it likes erm. Not much it seems so I asked manageress Janet to explain. The money we make in this shop goes to erm Save The Children Fund which supports children in countries abroad, particularly in Africa where you've probably seen pictures on television. Children starving, children who who are orphans, children on the move, refugees erm people that have nothing, nothing at all and a lot of the money is spent in this country erm particularly in cities, very poor areas of the cities. The children learned how to do all the jobs that make a shop work. Opening the boxes,stacking the cards, I've been on the tills and serving the customer putting the things in bag . Time to hand back to the grown-ups. and time for this reporter to go back to school. Congratulations and thank you to shop and branch volunteers, large and small. You work so tirelessly for the fund many of you are in this hall today now and thousands more are not. Please pass on our warmest thanks to them all. I would also like to thank the staff who work with and support the volunteers in so many ways. Thank you for your help and guidance. So what will our birthday year be like for volunteers? Challenging without doubt. Because we need to raise twenty five percent more in branches and shop donations to hit our target. But the year should also be exciting and enjoyable too I hope. There is so much fund raising knowledge and experience amongst our volunteers. I was amazed during a recent visit to headquarters of the number of requests for posters and tickets I saw when I was leafing through that bible, the design it file. The variety of events were as ever absolutely astounding. Bingo in Swaffham, book sales, craft fairs, cream teas, open gardens. In Canterbury you could go to an evening of wine and wisdom. Winchcombe branch held a wonderful candlelit salmon supper. In Leominster they chose plonk and pate. On the music front, Scottish , string quartets, a juke box jive, a opera were in store. This fund raising fair is our bread and butter and it is top quality. So for success in the seventy fifth I say to any volunteer who asks me, do what you always do, stick to your tried and tested methods because that's what you know best. But, go for a little more. Many of you have played what we come to call the seventy fifth game, where we round up to seventy five. So if you used to charge fifty P for programmes, consider, could you charge seventy five P? If you held and event last year and fifty five people attended. Could you go for seventy five this year? Invite groups to raise seventy five pounds for us, or seven hundred and fifty pounds or dare I say it, seven thousand five hundred pounds. In shops, could you select better quality goods for a seven pound fifty rail? And could the shop team keep shops open an extra seven and half hours in the best trading week for example? So please, everyone, put a little more into the seventy fifth and get more out. I now want to draw on some major fund raising themes directly linked to the seventy fifth. There are four national events, some of which will be familiar. The first is Save The Children Fund week. As you know the seventy fifth will be launched on the twenty sixth of April, nineteen ninety four. Can you make the most of the week and the wonderful opportunity we'll have for collecting in Tesco stores. We have a real chance here. Just look at your superb performance to date. Nineteen ninety three Save The Children Fund week raised nine hundred and forty six thousand pounds, a staggering nine percent increase on the previous year. More branches than ever joined in six hundred and seventy four in all and collections took place at more Tesco's than ever, two hundred and twenty five. The increase has been steady, thanks to all the tremendous effort put in by our volunteers and staff. I particularly want to mention the East Anglia and East Midlands region where a hundred percent of branches participated, yes an inspiration to us all. In Northern Ireland where unfortunately there are no Tesco stores, there is a set target aimed at getting a minimum Save The Children Fund week involvement in seventy five percent of branches. This is ambitious but I know you will do well, knowing how mativ motivated and generous people of Norlan Northern Ireland are. But where there isn't a branch near a Tesco's how can we make sure that the collections are still carried out? Well I want to encourage you to think of asking other groups you know to help, and individuals too. If you can come up with lots of names, let the nearest branch, or your area organiser know. This is the way we'll meet our aim of covering all the four hundred and fifty Tesco's stores. The second event is our birthday parties. A fund raising idea of Judy , a volunteer from Scotland, the actual birthday is the nineteenth of May, as you know, to mark this we are asking all our supporters to hold a party for us on that day, or as near to it as possible. It's a wonderful opportunity for volunteers in shops and branches and one-off groups to contact all the people who've supported them and Save The Children over the years. We want it to be a day of celebration, but not only that, as with all parties we hope to receive presents, but the presents must be money for Save The Children. I can't stress enough how we would love to get a hundred percent response for the parties from all our branches, so get the balloons and the collecting bins out please and please make the most of the idea. Thirdly there will be a national raffle with a car as the main prize. This year many branches are keen on the raffle, arranged by Ian , the treasurer of Wakefield branch and David area organiser for Yorkshire South. Lots of you applied for and sold tickets and the winning ticket was drawn by the Princess Royal during the lunch period. In the right place, a raffle can be a winner, by persuading a friendly car dealer to loan you a car to put in a shopping centre, or at a country show. Many branches have raised a hundred and fifty to two hundred pounds a day, or even more. Check as there may be insurance problems, but don't be put off, or how about getting a dealer to supply a cardboard mock-up of a car and using this, it still grabs the attention. Shops helpers are vital in selling raffle tickets too. So let's really all commit ourselves to the national raffle and make it the biggest and most successful raffle Save The Children has ever had. Fourthly, on a musical note, we are very fortunate that Richard Stilgoe is composing a special piece of music for Save The Children, the theme of course is childhood and we are putting together a menu of music and readings which will include this new piece. The idea is to invite choirs and musicians from all over the United Kingdom to use our menu, the sheet music and the pack of the fund raising ideas. To this end we will be working closely with Music Aid, a group of volunteers from the music world who set up after the tragic Ethiopian famine in the mid nineteen eighties. We will invite musicians and choirs to raise money for Save The Children. So many of our volunteers in branches and shops belong to, or have links with choirs. We are calling on all our helpers, both adults and children, who enjoy music, to spread the word or the song. Look out for the pack, it will be ready next Spring, in time for the events which will continue throughout the year with of course, a big Christmas push for all those carol concerts. So four major fund raising schemes and a lot is being planned locally, by branches and by the councils in Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales. But also special seventy fifth birthday committees are conort coordinating large special events involving branch and non-branch volunteers like the youth music festival to be held in Canterbury Cathedral in nineteen ninety four. Save The Children really recognises and values the skills of fund raisers, both volunteers and staff. Your efforts and achievements are always humbling. Let me just mention some of the ways in which you, the volunteers, are getting together, enriching your skills and supporting each other generally in support of the seventy fifth. In London a deputy area representative, Isabelle , is working with a group of well established trading secretaries to encourage other branches, less confident in trading, to spread their wings. Isabelle is well supported in this by the staff and I would like to mention how much we appreciate the changes to the trading goods which have taken place in the last year. Things have really taken off, our whole output has gone up a notch. If I had t t to give one word to describe it, it would be quality. Just look at our Christmas catalogue. There has been a great improvement in the range of goods and cards, I'm sure you'll all have noticed it too. On the education front, I believe we've had one of the most successful ever branches residential meetings at Bristol University. It was an opportunity to place Save The Children Fund's current and future aim into historical context and for volunteers a valuable lesson in preparation for the seventy fifth. Bursaries, available this year for the first time, broadened the opportunities to attend. Also, throughout the United Kingdom there are now school speakers training sessions. They began in Scotland and to take just one example we are very lucky to have Muriel , an area representative, coordinating the programme in the Midlands. Thank you Muriel. So to summarise, whatever the event, whatever your skill, whether you're a branch or a non-branch volunteer, I encourage you and everyone else to do something to Save The Children in nineteen ninety four. Here's one example for this year of how Save The Children can work with others. The steak pie costs nine pence, the spotted dick is tuppence, in fact all the prices of the staff cafe today were the same as they were sixty years ago, that's because today is the cafe's sixtieth anniversary. So today we reverted back to what we used to do and it's traditional dishes which quite frankly, what we build empires on,sausages, mash and onions, steak pie, chips and peas. And the added twist is that the menu is at nineteen thirty three prices, or a donation to the Save The Children Fund. The cafe was opened by Ambrosio Forte sixty years ago, it's now run by his son Mario. one shilling and ten pence. How much have you spent today then? I've spent one and ten pence, old money and a donation of course. Is that a bargain? That was an absolute bargain, yeah. One and six please. There you are. Who said the west end's expensive, at least one place in Soho here today where you can get a square meal for less than two bob. Er that'll be one and six please. American Express? You must be joking. Save The Children benefited from that event and the publicity, because we were the quickest off the mark in responding to the Star Cafe's request to help with their anniversary event. Well that takes us on nicely to more interviews, this time I'm coming down to meet members of the audience. Can you hear me? First I am going to look for Kathy . Kathy is our area representative for Sussex, a very busy lady oh, oh yes I see you. Hello Kathy, I think first of all you should tell us what an area representative is. An area representative is a volunteer, just like everybody here in this audience today, and I act as a link between the branches and headquarters, working with the area organiser but representing the branches, for me personally in Sussex. You're a very busy lady I know and I also believe that your area's got some fantastic ideas for the seventy fifth, something to do with a special cake recipe. Can you tell us about it? Well when you say cake, don't get the wrong ideas, erm my idea of a cake, the vision that I had of a, a three tier cake, came to me as I was striding home from a meeting across The Downs and I had this vision of a three tier cake. The base of the cake was the branches, us, the foundation of Save The Children Fund, doing what we usually do but doing it very, very well and very professionally, the fetes, the coffee mornings, the fashion shows, the sort of thing that our reputation is built on. And then there was the second tier of the cake, something a little bit different, something a little bit more special for the seventy fifth year but still perhaps working on the tried and tested. Then I saw the top tier of the cake and that has got to be the er piece,piece de resistance I think as the French say and I know that some very exciting ideas are coming out of the South East region. In particular Kent has put together a very interesting programme of a festival of food and drink which is taking place at Penthurst Place near Tonbridge Wells, the last weekend in June and again here at the Barbican next year after this particular annual public meeting, music aid, who you mentioned earlier, are putting on a concert er for Save The Children Fund and they hope to raise twenty thousand pounds on that night. Sussex is still working on its piece de resistance but I hope that we're going to get erm what we hope to do together very, very soon. Isn't that wonderful er and thank you Kathy for working so hard for us. Now I'm going down. Sally, erm well Scotland is very enthusiastic about the birthday appeal and we have five major events planned, erm two in the Glasgow area and two in Edinburgh and one up at Gleneagles and erm in all of these events we're actually pulling in on our people's expertise to widen our contacts, so it's not just the fund members who are running these things. We've got a ladies luncheon in Glasgow for four hundred and the organiser, Ruth the chair of Glasgow branch, is being helped by two ladies from the business community erm Linda from the BAFTA award and Tessa who has her own marketing company, so we're hoping to sort of pull in a lot of people from that erm Judy the chair of Scottish council, is yet again holding her Charlotte Square ball erm, this was very, very successful two years ago, I think you know erm and we're hoping for the same success erm, we are very lucky that the Royal Highland Show has chosen us to be er the charity this year for the gala preview of the show erm this is er for three hundred people, a champagne reception erm sponsored by the Bank of Scotland, so that you go and see the flowers before the show opens the next day. So that's rather nice I don't think I'll have any difficulty selling the tickets for that. And then up at Gleneagles we have a pro-am celebrity golf tournament and that's in conjunction with a dinner and a fashion show and yet again the interesting thing is that the Scottish P G A is actually going to run the golf tournament for us so that's a great scoop. erm These are all very exclusive events and ticket events so we felt there was a need for a public event and erm, what they say in Glasgow, something for ma, pa and the wains and so we're having a family fun day at Chatlereau country park, just south of Glasgow at Hamilton. We're hoping and I'm crossing my fingers here, that we'll get in excess of five thousand people there and the interesting thing is we've got a commercial exhibition at it, to give it a flavour of Scotland where people will show all the good things made in Scotland and we're calling it the taste and touch of Scotland and hopefully that will offset the cost of all the other, other er stalls and things that we're holding. So erm we're going to be very busy I think. I'm sure you are and thank you for being such a wonderful chairman. It's now my very great pleasure to look for Jacqui who's our shop leader of Sherborne shop. Some of you from that part of the world will know that it's a wonderful little shop, in fact it's a gold mine and Jacqui's going to tell me a little bit about her recipe for running that shop. Hello Jacqui. Hello. I think I'll come and sit beside you as there's a spare seat. Can you tell us a little bit about the recipe for running such a successful shop? Yes I think that one of the most important things are to have a band of cheerful, helpful, happy, smiling volunteers behind the counter. It makes all the difference to the members of the public and the good will that it builds up is terribly important. The other things that are important are no cups of coffee, no sticky buns on the table er my helpers don't wear trousers or leggings because helpers, like the goods, come in all sorts of shapes and sizes and some of them look good and some of them don't. Erm there are all sorts of little rules, the every black sack that comes in has to be gone through, no matter how grotty, somewhere inside it there might be some really very, very valuable piece of equipment. I think that's right. I'm sure some of you last year or least last week or even last month, read about the black sack that had all the wonderful jewels in it that came into a charity shop and I think it's a lesson for us all isn't it, not not to miss anything in a black sack, Jacqui. Absolutely the other tip with black sacks is tip them out on the floor, do not plunge the hand into it you get livestock, and I have actually had teeth. So it's one of those things to be very wary of. The other thing is window dressing. Window dressing is incredibly important, change the window every other day if possible, look for professional help in every aspect. Hold special events erm linen sales, bric-a-brac, anything that's got an appeal to the public, but do it through the window. I mean the seventy fifth we're going to be able to use the window to great advantage, it's going to be a great display time. I'm sure she's right and I hope that's given some of the shop leaders who are sitting round about me, some ideas. I I think we can't emphasise too much the importance of the shop window, don't you agree? Oh I think so but above all I think that the helpers and their smiles are the other things that are so important, after all they are the bedrock of the fund. I know you've got some other amusing stories, I don't know if we've time just to tell one more. Have you got one other story to tell us about your shop? There are so many of them. One man came in took all his clothes off, tried on a load of things and walked out in them. I think we'd better end the interview there don't you? Th thank you Jacqui. Oh no you've got something else to tell us . One further point is just remember grunge is big fashion so it's mega bucks. Thank you Jacqui. Now it's my very great pleasure to I think probably introduce the youngest member of our audience here today and a very good supporter of Save The Children erm I am sitting down soon beside Elise who's travelled all the way from Norwich. Hello Elise I'm going to ask you first of all, how old are you, are you six? No I'm seven . You're seven are you oh right. Now you've had a very good idea for fund raising I believe haven't you and it's something to do with your daddy. Wh what is it, can you tell us about it? Daddy always empties his pockets . He empties his pockets. Well what does he keep in his pockets? Money. Lots of money? Yes. I think you is it the pennies you collect? Yes. And where do you put them when you collect them? In my jar. In your jar and I think you've also taken this jar to school haven't you? Yes yes. Are you going to tell me what you did with the jar at school? I think you asked all the children to help you didn't you? Yes. And what did you do with that jar? You took it round the school? Nope. Well, if it was nope what was it, what did you do? Tell us about what you did with your jar. I collected lots of money. That was very good and we heard somebody else talking about pennies and how important pennies were this afternoon, Patricia Routledge mentioned pennies as well. So with your pennies and her pennies I think we should all make a lot of money for Save The Children, don't you? Yes. Good luck next year. Are you going to do it again for the seventy fifth? Yes. That's wonderful and thank you so much for coming today. I'm now going to look for another young person who's sitting here in our audience. I'm looking for Ismar who's come all the way down from Dundee to be with us today. She's a student at Dundee University and has had some brilliant fund raising ideas amongst her friends at the University and she's here sitting in the front row. If I sit beside you I think that's easier hello Ismar. Hello . Now I believe you've had a fashion show is that right? Yes erm, my sister and I organised a charity fashion show in aid of Somalia last year. A and what made you raise money for Somalia, did you see something on television or. Oh yes we saw the the news reports found them rather disturbing erm we thought we'd do something to help and decided on a fashion show. Erm, we thought it'd appeal to young people and we thought it'd be great fun, which it was, and we raised er one thousand seven hundred pounds. Congratulations. You told me earlier it was fun. What else did you do apart from the fashion show? Erm well we had a a big raffle erm we wrote away to all the local shops and restaurants ask them to donate prizes and we raised a lot of money through that and also my mum erm cooked Indian snacks which we sold during the interval erm which everyone loved and so it worked quite well. And I think there was a bit of dancing was there? Yeah well we we thought we would erm erm try and get the Asian community involved and we included some sequences with Asian clothes with Asian music an tha that was all very impressing for for the white people as well as the Asian people in the audience. What a good idea and those of you sitting round who have a lot of Asian students at your universities, I'm sure that's a very good idea for you all to think about for next year. I think we want to be encouraging young people because you told me that they're all quite keen to do something for Save The Children Fund now it's the seventy fifth year. Would you like to say a little bit about that? Oh yes, I mean if there's that you're good at or if you've got a good idea that's simply fun I'm sure all young people would be really willing to help. Thank you very much and thank you for coming down and talking to us today. Thank you all. I have really enjoyed hearing your fund raising stories. Everyone have a good seventy fifth year. Keep up the good work and really rise to birthday challenge. The children are counting on it. Thank you all and goodbye and I'd now like to thank hand over to Nicholas Hinton. Thank you. Thank you very much Sally. Watch it Kilroy Silk. Your Royal Highness ladies and gentlemen the foundations of Save The Children. May I begin this afternoon by adding my thanks to those of previous speakers for all that you've done to raise money for Save The Children during the past year you are tremendous. I have just completed a round of visits to most of the fund raising regions in England and Wales and I've been most impressed by the preparations that are underway to prepare for our seventy fifth birthday. Of course preparations in themselves do not raise money. That, together with the continuing recession, explains why we are this year having a very tight year, financially. This fact makes it imperative that we all succeed and have a tremendously successful seventy fifth. I have every faith in every one of you. If I had any criticism of our organisation it would be that we have a tendency to hide our light under a bushel. We seem somehow, to be shy of shouting from the rooftops of our many, many achievements over the years, here in the United Kingdom and overseas. Last week last Thursday saw the launch by the disasters emergency committee, of which Save The Children is a part, of another appeal for Africa. Among the ten African countries for which the appeal was made, there was a mix of hope, on the one hand, hope for progress in Eritrea or Liberia, Mozambique or Ethiopia and on the other hand, countries of despair Somalia that we've heard about today, or southern Sudan and of course, Angola. I'm certain that those of us who heard Mike Save The Children's overseas director on the Today programme or our field director in Angola on the evening television news yesterday, can have hold nothing but pride, what they had to say of Save The Children's work in that country, a country described as the heart of darkness a country with the world's worse infant mortality rate. I was also immensely proud when Gavin Campbell, who fronted last week's B B C D E C appeal,told me that words could not describe the tremendously high quality of Save The Children's work in Malawi, Mozambique and Sudan, which he had recently visited in order to film for the D E C appeal. That I believe was, perhaps unfortunately, obvious from the film itself. We do indeed, thanks entirely to you all, have a great track record. Anything that you can do to support the D E C appeal for Africa will be more than welcome. It has so far reached a total of rather over half a million pounds. As you well know our mission statement, Save The Children's vision, commits us to using our experience gained here and overseas to achieve lasting benefits for children on a far wider scale than would be the case if we just confined our work to those children and families who happen to be involved in the projects we run. Let us go back to the beginning, to nineteen nineteen. For we can be rightly proud of one of Eglantine Jebb's major achievements five years later that of drawing up the original first ever charter on the rights of the child and persuading the then league of nations to adopt it. As you know, this early and admirably simple document eventually became the basis of the U N convention on the rights of the child adopted unanimously by the U N in nineteen eighty nine and since by the majority of member states as mentioned by the Princess Royal this morning. It is worth reflecting what a most remarkable contribution women have made to Save The Children throughout its seventy four years history. This fact reminds me of a tale I was told in the States recently whereby President Clinton and his wife Hilary and Major Kay drove into a garage, quite why this was necessary the tale does not relate, as the petrol or gas attendant began to fill up the limousine, Hilary Clinton leaped out of the car and became involved in an animated conversation with the petrol attendant. On her return to the car the President said how is it you know this petrol pump attendant so well? Mrs Clinton replied that she'd been at college with him and they'd had a very close relationship. The President mused, I don't think so. So claiming that had this relationship continued Hilary would probably have ended up as the wife of a petrol pump attender rather than the wife of the President of the United States. No, recorded Hilary, had I married him, he would have become President of the United States. Moving on, I am sorry we need to, to nineteen forty five which saw Save The Children's first involvement with pre-school playgroups here in the United Kingdom. Now a facility that is almost universally available if often under funded. Nine years later, in nineteen fifty four, S C F pioneered hospital playgroups and now, again commonplace, if again under-funded. Twenty years later as many of you will remember Save The Children launched its stop polio campaign which in turn led to polio prevention becoming an integral part of world wide immunisation programmes. How many lives has that have you, saved? In nineteen ninety one we'll all recall the desperate scenes of our television screens of Kurdish refugees scrambling up the mountains, fleeing from Iraq's Saddam Hussein. The delivery of essential supplies, clothing, food, shelter to those people seemed ad hoc at best. It was this episode that led S C F on the path to arguing for a reform of the international system for humanitarian relief. S C F has much experience to back up such an initiative. Experience in Ethiopia, Angola, Cambodia or Sudan. We may, indeed we have not, always made ourselves popular in arguing for reform of humanitarian aid system but it has certainly been effective and we are never, but never, ignored. I was reminded of this in a recent villit, village a visit to the United Nations in New York. I went to meet a friend in the cafeteria there for coffee. We got the coffee, he paid for it and we walked to the remotest part of the canteen, behind a sort of screen, why here I said. I wouldn't be seen dead with you in here was his reply. In nineteen ninety S C F began its work providing facilities for prisoner's families in Crumlin road in Belfast, Norwich prison, Strangeways and here in London's Holloway prison for women which I visited at the beginning of June. This has enabled S C F to persuade the Home Office's prison department to run such facilities and budget for such facilities in every prison to be rebuilt and there appears to be no shortage of those, or designed from herein after. This very year, Save The Children's reports making ends meet and our contribution to the world health survey have enabled radical alterations to be made to the world communities practice with regard first to nutrition and food aid, particularly in East Africa and secondly to primary health care practice. This is a magnificent record, thank you and and in nineteen ninety three I would like to announce the day that Save The Children has been unanimously chosen by the charities aid foundation as its first recipient of the charity of the year award nineteen ninety three. This in my view, is a tremendous tribute to everybody in this hall and the many thousand who cannot be with us today. Well done. I'm proud in your name, I shall be proud in your name to receive this award from the Home Secretary, Michael Howard on four November at the cunan Queen Elizabeth Hall here in London. Well done you and a very, very special thanks to the Princess Royal, without whose leadership it would not have been possibly at all. On a somewhat linked matter, you will I am sure, have read of the Home Office sponsored report on voluntary organisations or charities published last week. I do not want to waste your time today discussing this rubbish. I just want I just want to let you know that chief among my criticisms of this report, it is is that it is a total insult to all of you, who give of your time freely to a unique cause to which we all belong. To remove charitable status, at a cost of some five million pounds a year to Save The Children Fund, to relegate us to the status of a quango, is absolute rife nonsense. Let us give the report no more publicity, it does not deserve it. Europe has figured large in the past year and I am delighted that Save The Children is among the first of United Kingdom non-governmental organisations to establish an office in Brussels and mount a pan- European operation. My thanks are due to all those, including volunteers, who have become engaged in this initiative. I am confident that in some ten years time, Save The Children will be a strong pan-European organisation, perhaps the strongest as such within the European Community. Well at the end of the day all our work is for the benefit of children, individual children, individual human beings like you or like me. Perhaps the most lasting memory I have of the past year is a conversation with a small nine year old boy in Liberia in West Africa in August. He was resident in an orphanage which is supported by Save The Children. A boy who during the vicious war in Liberia, has seen first his mother and then his father, his two elder brothers and his two elder sisters, savagely assassinated in front of his eyes by the guerrilla troops. In the middle of this episode he had fled into the garden, terrified. The soldiers sought him out he was not assassinated but draughted into the army as a boy soldier. As he told me that he had killed perhaps ten, eleven or twelve people during the course of the war. An agonising first nine years of life, this was a little boy who had seen things that little boys and little girls should never see. Thank God for the work that S C F is doing there, his only hope through counselling, of being able to regain any form of normality. Thank you very much. Just before introducing our final speaker today, I would wish, because I would think you would want this, for me to express thanks to the two key people on my staff who are responsible for organising today. Which I think they call the A P O annual public. Appointment Linda Chalker, Baroness Chalker, the Minister for Overseas Development, is unable to be with us today. She cannot get away from the House of Lords because of important parliamentary business. I think I'm right in saying that she drew a very short straw and is the first reading in the Lords of the bill to privatise the railways. We'll send her our good wishes shall we? But it gives me great pleasure to introduce Mark Lennox Boyd, the parliamentary under secretary of state, the foreign and commonwealth office, a position he's held for some time. Amongst his responsibilities are the relationships between the United Nations and our government and of course for us his very, very special claim to fame is that he is the younger brother of our former chairman Simon Boyd. Your Royal Highness, ladies and gentlemen. May I add first of all my apologies on behalf of Lynda Chalker that she's not able, due as we've heard, to business in the Lords to be with you today. I know she's disappointed as you are but may I coming in her place thank Nicholas Hinton and his colleagues for having me at the Barbican at this important annual public meeting. I am delighted to be asked to deliver Lynda's speech to such a large body of people committed to helping the disadvantaged and to be able to say a few words about how government is meeting the challenges that it faces in the developing world. Now it so happens that I am in some small way, relatively well qualified to stand here in Lynda's place. In addition to what Nicholas er recounted about my brother, I believe that I am the only minister in the government, possibly the only member of parliament who has ever worked for the Save The Children Fund. When I was in Jordan in nineteen sixty five studying Arabic, I helped the Save The Children Fund operation there for a few months and this was undoubtedly one of the most enjoyable and interesting short periods of my life and I look back on it with great warmth and affection and as your Royal Highness knows, it happens also that many, many years ago before you were our president, my father occupied your office and I therefore come to this meeting today with some knowledge of the fund's activities and with great admiration and respect for all the that the fund has achieved. I s certainly shall not stint in my praise of the fund and I would like to add my congratulations on behalf of the government at the recognition that the charities aid foundation has granted to the fund in making it er the charity of the year this year. Let me say right away that partly because of aid official and through N G Os such as you, many people in developing countries are living healthier, happier and more secure lives. This kind of good news is so often overlooked because the challenges presented by the developing world do not diminish, indeed they seem to grow, climate change, wars, famine, rising populations, are some of the many complex causes of underdevelopment. Now what I'd like to do this afternoon in the short time that we have is to outline some of the ways in which the British government is helping to meet the challenges of under development. I shall cover our response to the needs of the voluntary sector, of Eastern Europe, of Africa and I shall say a particular few words about the needs of children, the subject which is of course at the very heart of your work. Perhaps I should start by telling you something I'll not be talking about and that is the subject of financial resources and how Lynda's getting on in her discussions with chief secretary, I don't suppose that comes to you as any surprise but I shall I not be talking on that but let me say that we remain committed strongly to a substantial aid programme which as far as possible is directed towards the poorest countries. We continue to support activities which will improve the quality of life of poor people. A significant feature of that support is our assistance to and cooperation with the voluntary sector. Last year S C F programmes received almost eighteen million pounds of the hundred and forty seven million which we channelled through N G Os. This was to support your long term development work as well as emergency and disaster relief. The partnership which we've built up over many years with you means that I'm confident that British tax payers and recipients in er dep developing countries are getting the best possible value for money when government supports S C F initiatives and what is true for S C F is true for the many other M G, N G Os with whom we work. O D A funding of British N G O activities has more than doubled in the last three years. This is no accident. N G Os have shown over and over again that by working alongside a community they can help identify the barriers to development experienced by that community and they can support the community as it works to make social and economic progress. This work is both a vital and complimentary part of any balanced aid programme. Now I know that the ma vast majority of everyone here is involved in fund raising for the vital work done by S C F. That too challenges government to respond, I believe that our record is a good one. Since nineteen seventy nine we have done much to extend and improve the tax incentives available in order to encourage individual and corporate donors to give to charity. Government cannot and should not do everything. In Britain we have a rich reserve of good will, energy, commitment in our voluntary sector. We would be failing in our duty if we did not seek to ensure that the very considerable effort of the voluntary sector was not translated into tangible benefits to poor people in developing countries. That is why the support of the government to the voluntary sector has grown so dramatically in recent years. Let me give you some examples. Charities are by and large exempt from income tax, corporation tax and capital gains tax. Transfers to charities are exempt from both inheritance tax and from stamp duty. In addition to this any individual or company making donations to charity under a deed of covenant can get tax relief for their donations. Since nineteen ninety, large single cash donations by individuals and companies attract tax relief. Charities can reclaim pay repayment of basic rates of tax on gifts of as little as even two hundred and fifty pounds. Since nineteen eighty seven it has been possible to arrange for employees to have charitable donations deducted from their pay through the payroll giving scheme. There is also er a very broad range of value added tax reliefs, benefiting charities and the voluntary sectors. Recently this has meant that V A T relief has been targeted on fund raising by charities such as zero rating of much of their advertising and the sale of donated goods and the exemption of income from fund raising events organised by charities. There are some reliefs where costs cannot be estimated for example on capital gains and inheritance tax lifetime transfer but both direct taxes and value added tax relief drew in some nine hundred and thirty million pounds on behalf of charities in the nineteen ninety two ninety three financial year. Now this may not be the most compelling subject but it is important for you to know that throughout our term in office, we've not left you on your own as you carry out the task of raising funds for your programme. Now may I say one or two words about our various several of our bilateral programmes and er perhaps I will start with er saying a word or two about what the O D A is doing in Eastern Europe. The collapse of communism in the former Eastern block and the disintegration of the former Soviet Union represent a major new challenge the governments have had to face. The particular challenge for donors has been how best to support the fragile but vital process of transition to a pluralist democracy and market economies in the region. I make no apologies for this it is self evidently both right and in everyone's interest to do what we can to support this transition process. A process crucial to greater prosperity and stability for us all including developing countries. The needs are substantial. Exposure to market forces and the removal of state subsidies has revealed the weakness of many economic structures in the region. The recent events in Moscow have underlined the difficulties that some of the countries face in establishing new, stable, pluralist systems. Much of our assistance has been in the form of contributions through the multilateral institutions the European community programmes, the European bank of reconstruction and developing, the world bank. In our bilateral aid the main need was for carefully targeted and flexible assistance in the form of advice, skills and training and our response in this area for our bilateral aid was the creation of the know how fund for the former Soviet Union and for central and Eastern Europe. They've had a particular focus on assisting the economic transition in the region. For example through health with privatisation of state enterprises and assistance with the creation of small businesses. At a more day to day level we've helped improve food quality in the Ukraine and have provided advice on improving bread supplies in Moscow. We've also worked with a number of N G Os to help the development of voluntary agencies in the region. Both through the charity know how fund as well as the establishment of special voluntary programmes. In Russia for example we intend to launch a small partnership fund to support small projects promoted by the voluntary agencies in the United Kingdom who've developed a wide range of connections with their Russian counterparts. A substantial number of British N G Os are already responding the challenges of Eastern Europe and the former Soviet Union and many more including er yourselves are beginning to pay er attention to it. Well I've said a few words about the Soviet Union but I would like to add that our programme of assistance to the Soviet Union and to other countries in central and Eastern Europe, while it's had to grow rapidly in response to the urgent needs of reg region, it does not it has not grown and will not grow in any way er which will undermine our commitment to the developing world and er perhaps on that note I might turn to Africa. We hear much about the seemingly intractable, intractable problems of Africa. Indeed the nineteen eighties was a wretched decay er for that continent, famine deterioration in terms of trade, higher world interest rates, poor economic policies, undemocratic governments, all conspired against progress in Africa. Africa was fe falling further and further behind but things are changing economic and political form is taking root across the continent and showing return. The twenty core countries benefiting from the special programme for Africa achieved economic growth of nearly four percent in the year nineteen eighty eight,i the years nineteen eighty eight to nineteen ninety. Faster than before the ruror than before the reforms were introduced and faster than population growth, leaving room there for for some modest increase in average incomes. Now in the years nineteen ninety one to nineteen ninety two Britain spent four hundred and five million pounds of its financial aid programme in Africa, about forty percent of the total and we shall continue to respond to the demands and challenges that Africa presents. But external assistance alone cannot deliver sustainable development and st political stability. Success must depend on the efforts and policies of the countries themselves. Africa's reliance on aid is already dangerously high, it is sobering to contrast the difference in aid levels between Asia and Africa. Five pounds per capita in the former er five dollars per capita in the former against thirty four dollars per capita in the latter. Private investment, domestic and foreign needs to be increased and the public sector made more efficient and effective. We need to improve the quality of public expenditure with more money on primary health care and education and less on defence and parastatal subsidies. Donors will help, Britain's commitment of five hundred and fifty million pounds for the special programme of assistance to Africa since nineteen eighty, is testimony to that but African governments must own their reform programmes. Real political commitment to better government and sensible economic policies is essential. The challenge is to strengthen and deepen the economic reform process. Now when talking about economic reform I am very well aware of the shadow hanging over most African countries' debt. For some the burden is crippling, threatening their economic viability. Britain has long ha led the way in providing er help. The existing Trinidad terms are a result of a British initiative. They've had the effect of halving the value of payments due to creditors during the period of an I N F agreement and have benefited seventeen countries so far including thirteen in sub-Saharan Africa. But we're not content in in the government to let it rest there for the poorest countries, the very poorest countries, even more help is urgently needed. We are therefore pressing for an immediate reduction in the stock of debt for those countries. In pressing ahead we cannot er overlook the position of the poorest. Reduction to be increased beyond the existing fifty percent to eighty percent for the most needy. Not all creditor countries are ready to go beyond fifty percent and we do need to move forward multilaterally but there is increasingly widespread support for our proposals. The Tokyo summit called for all ed poorest, most indebted including the possibility of earlier action on the stock of debt. You will certainly not find a more determined or persistent advocate of full Trinidad terms than Britain. But economic reform also needs good government and these are the two major planks of Britain's aid policy for Africa. A free press and the close scrutiny of freely elected assemblies will help to root out corruption and mis-management. A conscious decision is needed to get government out of things the private sector does better and to concentrate government on the basic things that only governments can do. It must for example, ensure an independent judiciary, provide health and education services, basic infrastructure and maintenance and it must bring about the economic environment that allows the private sector to create jobs and growth. In pressing ahead we cannot er overlook the position of the poorest, the social costs of not adjusting are much higher and affect many more people than the costs of adjusting but we must be prepared to help those at the bottom of society to cope and this is where you, as N G Os can play a special role. Let me give you one example. In the district of Ethiopia the O D As joint funding scheme is assisting with the implementation of a water supply project. In the villages of the region women and children spend many hours each day walking to a spring where the water trickles out of the ground to collect water in twenty kilo twenty litre pots weighing over twenty kilos. The task is anything but easy, particulary for the young children who are involved. By piping water from the perennial spring, this project will provide drinkable water to over fifty thousand people in the region. Village life in this case, is being transformed at the cost of a mere fifteen pounds per villager. So amidst the doom and gloom that seems to cloud the the African horizon, we can see that aid does work and in the example I've just given, that it works indeed for children. But there's no room for anyone of course to be complacent about the growing er demand of the needs of children er a subject of such importance here. Seventy years ago your founder Eglantine Jebb drafted a revolutionary and challenging document, a charter which stated that each child has independent rights. The message in this charter has as you know, at last received universal acceptance after many years and much determined effort by those concerned. Save The Children are to be congratulated for the part they played in securing the nineteen eighty nine United Nations convention on the rights of the child. Children have rights to health, education, to be free from physical and sexual abuse, to have a voice in the decisions which affect them and to grow up as responsible and active citizens but in many countries today many children stoo still do not enjoy these rights. In the worst cases they have even lost the right to grow up in loving and secure homes, seeking to earn their living on the street or separated from their families by war and civil conflict. How can the British aid programme help? The objectives of our development assistance policy are closely related to the convention on the rights of the child. Key aims of the British aid programme are to alleviate poverty and promote human rights. Many of the problems facing children and their families are caused by poverty. We seek to tackle this by programmes which support economic and social development, which improve education and health care and give parents the chance to have children by choice. But as countries move into much needed economic reform programmes we know that children may be the losers in the very short term and that's why in the O D A we are concerned with helping governments develop social policies which provide adequate safety net provision for children during this process of adjustment. Assisting children to achieve a basic education is one of O D A's priorities. For many years to come there will be generations of children growing up without the chance of an education so we have yet another challenge, that of the invisible children. Those not even knowing how to read and write. I want us to think for a moment about the rights and needs of all those millions of children who do not go to school, who are invisible because very often development programmes tend to ignore er their needs. It is a terrible irony that although they are invisible to the planners all of us who've travelled in developing countries cannot fail to have noticed these children out of school. They are busy at work in the market place, in the fields, caring for the younger children, fetching water and fuel, pounding mail maize or mending bicycles, selling goods on the streets, they pulling rickshaws. What rights do these children have when their primary need is to survive in often harsh environments and perhaps even help to support their families. Yes children should be at school and not at work but how can we ignore all those millions of others now growing up without this opportunity. It's because of this particular challenge that O D A funded er the S C F's recent report on children and income generating programme. I welcome the recommendation in this report that income generating programmes for children need consideration but with great care in their design. Such children must be assisted in gaining education and skills built around their existing work activities. That is what we are seeking to do in our slum improvement programme and in our programmes for children on the streets. Direct government t t government aid is not always easy because many of the problems are sensitive, like the exploited child labour in carpet factories, like violence against street children. We therefore er very much value the role of S C F er for four particular reasons. First er in raising national awareness of the problems, secondly in acting as advocates for children, thirdly in piloting new and innovative methods for helping children and fourthly in acting to protect the interests of children who are the victims of disaster. The challenge of meeting all children's needs and of helping them achieve their rights can only be met by concerted efforts of governments of multi-lateral agencies and bi-lateral donors, as well as by the path-breaking initiatives of N G Os such as Save The Children. I look forward to continuing our partnership. We must have partnership between government and non-government if we are to achieve any degree of success in our aid efforts. If our partnership is a genuine and practical one, we can go forward to meet the difficult challenges which face us. Not in a spirit of pessimism on the one hand or of complacent expectation on the other, but with an optimism that is founded in the reality of our shared experience. I am glad we have that partnership with all of you here and it is on that note, on behalf of the government, that I wish you every possible success as you embark upon your seventy fifth year. Minister thank you very much indeed. I know, I'm sure everybody here would have appreciated the reminder of the considerable encouragement that this government has given since nineteen seventy nine erm to adding to charities fiscal benefits, which has added to our income quite considerably. Very interesting to have a review from you of the O D A's work, both with regard to central and Eastern Europe and the developing world and I'm sure I speak for everybody in saying we are delighted minister that you spent the third part of your, your speech looking at the U N convention on the rights of the child which as you rightly say, is very close to the heart of Save The Children. Well that's it thank you all very, very much indeed for coming. I hope you've enjoyed it, I hope you've enjoyed it perhaps more than some of us dared to. But it's been I think great fun and I will wish to renew my thanks to those who made it possible and that of course is you by being here. Just before we go we are going to hear a recording of a song that's been referred to which I think is called the greatest love of all which I'm told we'll all know by heart er this time next year hmm erm anyway on that note if I may thank you very, very much indeed and I leave you with best wishes for a highly, highly successful birthday year. Bye. What what was the story about the witch again? Well she l she lived I think up on the hill above here. Millfield land somewhere. And she was supposed to be a witch right enough and the men from all round about here er had a meeting about it and they I think met at the barn of Dale. Where was that? Dale's the farm just over the hill. And they all had their flails with them. So they went to the Kildingy Well which was s supposed to have some kind of magical properties you see and er I don't ken if it was a a holy well or exactly but it certainly was reputed to have some kind of properties that could cure supposed to cure any disease save the black death. So they went to the Kildingy Well and dipped their flails in the water. To sanctify the whole operation. And then they and took this poor old wife and they beat her to death with the flails. And er they couldn't bury her in the in the Kirkyard. You see in consecrated ground so they buried her in this bit of wheat land at the Muckle Water there. The Millfield Gupps. So they say. And she was reported to have er have said when they when they took her out, that there would be nothing nothing grow on the site of the house but runcho And I don't know the they were awful hungry for land in that day you ken and there was quite, there was more than one occasion there was old folk just putting up with the house just to get the land that it stood on. Mhm. So whether the fact that they thought that she was a witch was maybe kind of half an excuse just for getting her out of the house I don't know. But they they'll tell you that you can still see where the house was because there's a runcho grows there. There's different stories about I know that long ago about men being put out of their putting out of their houses just to and they just er demolished the house you ken and Mhm. just to get the land it was. There was a man that used to that worked in the mill. His initials is carved on a stone above the the kiln fire. And I think it's eighteen sixty six. Peter and was a house just up the road hereabouts. And he was just terrorized out of his house. Mhm. And they . Put hens in his bed and he come in one night and there was a s a man a stray man you ken an effigy of a man like and it was hanging by the neck from a rafter in the house. And I think they'd just been hounding him for a while and that was the last straw. And he came down he would have been working for he would have been at that time my great grandfather maybe or and he came down and he lived in lower Millfield after that and just as soon as he was out of his house, they just had the house demolished. Blew it up. Mhm. and then divided up the land. Mhm. You were telling about that witch story afore, is that something that your father told you? I think it must have been indeed. Mhm.. They are oh I don't ken when but they must you ken obviously a long time ago story. Mhm. kind of story Er well story about the man from Rathlesholm. It was the harvest time and they were going to brew. Which they I you ken they were all all the houses would have about harvest time. And you ken and all their friends and neighbours came around to help with the harvest they'd have this home brew. So this man I think he came from Rosevale. Which is out along the shore in Rathlesholm. And he was going to somewhere in North End I think it was Huip to get barn to make this ale with. So he got the barn and he he had it in a peedie pail you see and he was on his road home and he was coming by this that hillock at Yensetter there. And he heard this awful grand fiddle music. So he stopped and he listened to this and went to have a look, see what was going on. And this was the trolls having a celebration of some kind. And so er whether the trolls keened he was there or not I don't ken but he he was watching this all the all the dancing. And listened to the awful grand music. And he stood and listened to this for a while and then he thought he was delayed long enough so he set off home. When he was coming along the road, the they were sawing. And there was a mark on his finger where his the handle of the pail was just sunk into the flesh of his fingers he was stood there the whole Winter listening to this music. I've heard one like that, I've heard about the one where the man goes into the and and is there for years. Mm. You know listening. slightly different I think. Can you tell me about the one . Erm There was a there was a man from Greentoft in Eday supposed to be. It was Gre he was out at the Caithes and it blew up a a gale a Westerly gale and blew him across to Norway you see. And he was likely in poor shape by the time he got to Norway. But he survived it anyway and there was er folk found him there and kind of looked after him. And nursed him back to health and whatnot. And he was there but there was no way of getting back. And he was there for quite a while. At nights he used to go down to the shore and look out across the sea you see and he wondered what was happening back home at Greentoft and fairly homesick. And this had gone on for some time and he was down on the shore anyway one night and looking out across the the sea and thinking long for Eday and he met this man. And the man was asking him what he was er looking so mournful about and what. He said he told him the story and he said if you could just get back to to Greentoft, he says, I would give you the best two cattle out of my byre. If I could just get back to Greentoft. So the man told him to be down there the same time next night and he returned . So the next night this m the man comes down to the shore and here was two men with a rowing boat. This man he was spoken to the night afore and another one. With a rowing boat. I don't think he was just too impressed with this set up but it was the only chance anyway so. They got him in the boat and they he had to lie down in the bottom of the boat and they and they covered him with a tarpaulin. And he couldn't look out. So they got him settled in the bottom of the boat and just as they were putting this tarpaulin over him, and getting ready to set off, the one man He heard the one man saying to the other, he says, Right, forty miles a wee stroke of the oars. So they set off anyway and just in no time at all they were coming into the shore below Greentoft. And it didn't seem very long to the man anyway. And er he was just delighted to be back of course and first thing he did was up to the house and had a he had a look round and he was in the byre and had these two awful grand . And he was awful proud of them. And they were grown apiece while he was away and they were better than ever and the deal was been that he had was gonna give them the best two cattle you see and this was this was the best two animals he had. He was very loath to part with them. And he did kind of consider taking the two the next wasn't fairly so good. Mhm. But he thought, Well that was the deal. So he stuck by it so he loosed these two and them down to the shore. And as soon as the the first ones forefeet touch the deck of the boat, the boat just disappeared and it was the trolls that was taking him home. And that was the last he saw of them? And that was the last he saw of them. And he didn't have to part with his cattle after all. But what would have happened to him if he'd not taken the cattle down I don't know. that's another story with a an unusual ending cos I'd have thought when you were saying that he wasn't that he didn't give them the Mhm. And some something the nice ones and something happened . terrible befell him but. are there any more that you're about trolls or whatever? I don't think so Agnes. I've really ne you don't hear many stories about trolls at all. Mm. I mind them they used to say too when afore having a boiled egg, you know just peedie . Insisted that they pu put the eggs the shell. When you were peedie. Which I don't think mum entirely approved of cos she seemed to think it was just quite proper table etiquette maybe but. And it was so that the fairies wouldn't sail away in the eggshells. Mm. But you Well it it was this this old wife had a a fairy that lived with her and apparently it wasn't an uncommon thing. And the fairies was boat you see but they were kind of wandering kind of things. And this fairy was it was found an eggshell. So it'd got this eggshell in the bottom and they used they would work a a mast a sail on it. And they'd got this eggshell in the bottom anyway and away it went. And it sailed off to a island that it came to. And there was just a whole loads of fairies on this island. And the peedie fairy was just delighted to start with but soon realized that there was something kind of fishy going on and it wasn't a very happy place. And it turned out that there was a big goblin that lived on this island and he just ate fairies. And he used to come around everyday and kind of size them up and pick the kind of fat juicy ones. And he would tell them that when he was going back to get gonna be his next meal. And er of course the fairies was kind of gradually disappearing. So it wasn't a very happy island right enough. But this peedie fairy anyway, it was wandering about one day very disconsolate at the prospect and found a sparrow with a broken wing. So it kind of nursed this sparrow you see and got its wing bandaged up and whatnot. And er and the sparrow started to get better and er it was starting to fly a peedie but again and was just getting its strength back. And this goblin came along one day and says to this peedie fairy that like he was coming to get her in the morning. So tearing off to find the sparrow. And er the sparrow thought he would maybe make it back to the mainland now so the peedie fairy climbed on his back and the sparrow flew it back to the mainland. And the peedie fairy came back and lived with the old wife been afore. And it never wandered any more after that it was seen enough of the big bad world outside. But the old wife always put he egg spoon through the bottom of the eggshell when she had a boiled egg after that. I've never ever heard of that before. Is that something that other folk on Stronsay know or is just something you I don't know. There's maybe not enough folk knew it because I don't know that there's very many fairies around . No. . Where there never many ghost stories speak about some of them but Och I don't ken. there's not very many black stories here that you've heard . and then came back and took a woman back with them as their servant . Are there many in Stronsay that you've heard of or not? that happened in Stronsay. Did it? Mhm. Tell me about that then. Erm well but the the descendants of them still here. Is that so? Mhm. I mean it's happened all over but But there's no ghost stories or No. anything associated with it. But I believe it did did happen. Mhm. ghost stories Ah I don't ken there's not really an an awful lot of ghost stories. There's Lower Millfield's supposed to be haunted. You see and it's likely one of the oldest houses on the island. You ken it's Well among the oldest houses on the island. When you say that, roughly how old do you think have you got any idea how old it is? No I haven't a clue. The mill has been I don't ken how long there's been a mill on the site there but the mill as it stands at present 's been there from eighteen sixty. Mhm. Eighteen sixty one is the year it was heightened and extended and whatnot. But there's there was a peedie single story building there Mhm. before that. And you can see on the gable end just here, you know where it's been heightened you can see the the old gable end And there was a there was two water wheels. one where the water wheel is now. That was fed by the . But there was another wheel at the other end and there was a loch that the the f there were hill fields up between . The toft mill at the other end. And as I say as I say I don't ken how long it had been there but that see that likely about the same time as the as the mill was heightened and er the kiln would've been putting on. You see there wouldn't have been a kiln at the mill before that I think it every house had their own kiln and they dried their own you ken. Dried their own grain afore they took it to the mill. But so about the same time as the mill was heightened, I think that th land was drained. For my grand uncle could mind the man that dug the ditch that drained it. You ken, he was an old man then . Mhm. So that in about nineteen sixties. Mhm. Sometime. Mhm. And that bit that comes right . Mhm. That's right. Mhm. That's right. And You don't have any idea No I've never heard of the mill being on anywhere different from where No. it is now. No. So I would think it's just always been at that that site. What what was what was the ghost story ? I don't ken, nobody ken's where the ghost came from. Or who it is really. I think I've heard that that it it it was er it was the doctor's house some time. I don't ken how far back that is. But er there was something about a servant lass that got pregnant. And committed suicide to avoid the scandal. Or something. So it's possibly her that Aha. that haunts the place. Mhm. But it just manifests itself very very rarely. Have you ever heard it yourself? No. No. But mum has heard it. Maybe twice. And dad had heard it. And what form did that take? I mean if they heard It m it makes an awful racket sometimes. And always at night. Terrible bangs and things that there's just no explanation for. But No no. Just noise. The the last time that it happened was er on it must be maybe twenty year ago or so. There was a beautiful night in the Summertime and the house was just full of women. There was mum and her and my grandmother, her mother. And Eleanor, sister. There was a friend of Eleanor's from Austria in the house and Kathleen. Yeah there was five women and dad was away and I was out at the fishing just for the night. And I came home about I don't ken, maybe eight o'clock in the morning or something a beautiful morning. flat calm. And here all these women was up And er the ghost was surely been performing that night. They'd heard this awful racket you see and they'd thought it was me coming and falling or something on the stairs. But you ken, very early in the morning. Mhm. And they all, they got up in the morning and I wasn't home still And must have been the ghost. Eleanor heard it as well. Aha. Yes I'm sure Eleanor was there. Mhm. I don't know, it's not a very malicious ghost anyway, just Unexplained noises. Just the sort of unexplained noises thirty year or so. Were you speaking to about another ghost story or was that the one ? No I No. I don't ken . There's not really many ghost stories on the island I don't think. That was the one that I'd heard about . What about any other stories linked with characters around about here that you've heard? Old characters that maybe you don't mind but you've heard spoken about. I Hello. Yes sir. Well what hat can I do for you tonight? Er I feel a bit plagued my mouth ul ulcers for about three weeks now. Three weeks? Aye. That's a . nonstop. When one goes away I get another. Another one comes. I've got about five just now. Let me look at them. Look inside. I've got them in my . Aye. Your gums are all inflamed as well. Aye. Put your tongue back out for a wee look. That side of your mouth's all infected as well. that's a, that's a form of thrush. See I've been coming for years with mouth ulcers. You know mhm. but don't get me wrong after a while I just gave up and I was getting them in bouts and I was getting through the Bonjela and the Oh no. No. They're not I'd done a round but and really this time it's not going away you know? Mhm. And I don't know Tt. There's a special place in Glasgow where you go to see the specialist who looks after folk Mm. with mouth ul ulcers like yourself. Where they keep coming back like that. Aye. If, if if you could maybe refer me I would be happy with that. Mhm. Sure. I will do that. I'll get that organized. I thought I'd a had a, I thought I'd had a problem but I, I injured myself as well. And er that's why I didn't cancel appointment with you Yeah. you know? Right. I've got a medical coming up, a work's medical coming up in er Mhm. for a job and I'm just, that would be another reason I had to get it Wanted to get it sorted out. Er you're Robert that's right? Mm. You're Robert. Sorry I've forgotten your address Robert. Right. Right. Now what other injury have you done yourself? I was carrying wall units and I'd taken fourteen wall units one after another up two flights of stairs. And I think I had about, I don't what I've done really but I just, the following day I felt it in my, my groin, the left side of my groin down my leg and up my stomach. And I went to my mate this morning who's a boxer and he said that it's now maybe, maybe a groin strain Mm. or a hernia or something. Let's have a wee look at you. No. But I've . Sounds as if you've a strain, the way you're walking you know the Aye. I'm not right sure I, I've been what it was you know? Because I just sort of went to work the following day and I worked away as normal. That's right. So maybe I'm maybe about fourteen stone I'm at . . Any Where does it start Robert? Well it's actually on my left, my left testicle and under underneath Mm. d down my leg and, and up you know. And Aye. and about here? Aye. Yes. You have a strained just through there. That big muscle. This big muscle here ? Mm. And at the same bit the muscle up here Aye. and it joins with And what happened to him after that? Er well he was unemployed for a quite some time er and he got odd casual jobs er and then finally doing er as late as the second world war he got er he got employment on the railway. Now did he have any er political or trade union affiliations? He had er some er trades union er some trades union experience. Er er he did attend his er the union branches,q er quite regularly. But he didn't have er he didn't have any official er position within the union branch. And was he politically active or anything? Er not really, no, not really that er er political activity was left er to my mother. Yeah. She was er she was politically acti active, er for the Labour Party . Could you tell me a bit about that? Yeah. Yeah. And erm what kind of things was she involved in then? Well she was er very prominent in the er Labour Party War Organization, Mm. that old day they had a fairly er strong er War Organizations locally, and she was er she was fairly active in there. And do you remember any experiences of your mother at election time or anything like that? Er well yes. Er,er the main means of propaganda of course in those days was er leaflet and er street meetings. Er and I well remember er even as early as nineteen nineteen the election which took place immediately after world war one, I remember being er sort of dragged round the streets,you know, er I think it was enjoyable, I don't know er by my mother, er attending these street meetings,er I I I very well remember it because I had a a a new coat, a new coat for for er for this particular venture,and er the two things you know are fairly deep in my memory. Now,how did your family cope with your mother being sort of politically active, what did you how did you manage? Well, fairly well, fairly well. Er erm, my older brothers er they took an active part, immediately i in the early twenties. So it didn't seem to be of any hardship to to anybody for for the mother to be involved in er political activity. Mm. Did your father play er a role in ? Er no no, he er er he did er become an individual member of the Labour party at that stage, but he er he he didn't he didn't take er er an active er or organized part in it.. Now could you tell us a little bit about your brothers and sisters? How many did you have,? Well, I had my older brother,, er he won some sort of a scholarship I remember, he became er er part-time attendant at the er part-time attendant at the er university. Er . It didn't do him a lot of good in the early er in the early days, but er it did stand him in good stead later of course because he became er er a full-time official o of the er Notts area N U M. This was wasn't it ? He was indeed. He he was one them, but who was er victimized in ninet after nineteen twenty six. He spent all his working life up until nineteen twenty six er at the local Hucknall Colliery, but after twe er er twenty six, er he was victimized, he was dismissed, and was unable to get employment in the er in the industry, until er the latter thirties, middle thirties. After which he became a branch official and er and er subsequently became a er a full-time area official. Er another brother in the in twenty six, he he took another course of action, he he he cleared off and er he went to he went to live in Australia. Er another brother he er subsequently became a er er a Labour county councillor, but that er that was after the second world war, er after he had er after he had er done war service. But I'm quite sure his earlier associations within the family, er you know helped him in er in his endeavour to become a county councillor after the er after the second world war. Er well that leaves me. I also er I did have a sister Yes. and subsequently she was much younger. She she she went to Australia. And your elder brother you talked about at some length was Les, was it?? That's right, yeah. Er, and what about erm political affiliations? They're all you mentioned one was a county councillor, what about Les what w he was involved with . Ah,L L Leslie, yes, he he he did a tremendous amount of work for the er er for the L Labour party. Er, he was indeed for some time the er secretary of the er er divisional Labour party. Er, among other things. But er he did a fair amount of educational work, organizing er educational classes and so on. Er, so much so he was er able to er organize local weekend schools to which er people like Hugh Gaitskell, er would come and er give a couple of lectures, er Sunday morning, Sunday afternoon. Er, John , another one. Er he was also closely associated with the National Council of Labour Colleges, who did indeed Mm. help in the organization of er of these weekend schools. But er immediately prior to the second world war, he did er he did er join the communist party. Now, so he was a p a n a political influence on you was he, er at some time ? Er, well it was all mixed up, it was all mixed up, the funny thing is, er whilst he was many years my senior,er I joined the communist party before he did. So er er th th there were some er quite substantial er discussions and debates which er which er which went on in the family over the years of course. Now erm, tt could you just talk a little bit just about your you know y your background as a child? What what school did you go to? I went to a local er er council school. What was that called? That was er er Boys' School. And do you remember much about that? pardon? Do you remember much about that school?? Er well, not a lot. I remember there was er er about forty eight of us in the classes, that er that went on. There was a very very strict er a very very strict discipline. Er looking at it from today's standards, there was little er little recreation. You know er little physical recreation.. And what do y what sort of examples can you give about discipline then,harsh discipline? What what what sort of things went on? Er well er I d I remember the er in the infants, er in the infants section it was necessary for to er for to touch y touch your hat, touch your little cap, er when the er when the headmistress when the headmistress er went by. Er and I think that somewhat sums it up. You more or less stood to attention.. Now erm did you stay in the same school or? More or less, yes. Yeah. Er, the school had its infants department, and er intermediate and so on you see. And you went on and left school at what age? Fourteen. And what did you come to do then, when you erm Er, well left school ? of course, jobs were at a premium then. Er, I got a job er in the butchery trade. Er, which er I suppose I was there for for six years. But, many of these, er many of these jobs of course as far as the young people were concerned were dead end jobs. You got, nineteen twenty, twenty one, and that was it, they didn't want er they didn't want adults. Er you know they they only wanted er re really junior people. Now before we talk a little bit about that, I'll j can I just take you back erm a couple of years and ask you er what your memories are of the general strike? What do you remember about that ? About the general strike? Yeah. Er,one was er one was food. Er,at midday, at midday,w we er er we reported to one of the local chapels. Er the majority of the local chapels were were w were responsible for er organizing soup kitchens for the kids, er S it didn't apply Sundays, it didn't apply Sundays. We got er a meal, mostly soup and a piece of bread,er at midday. Er the chapel I attended was er the Baptist chapel on er on Road. Er as I say, it the majority of it was soup, but on one occasion during the week, we always had er er some sort of mincemeat, er potted meat sandwiches and tea. And er I can taste the tea now. Er, it it had a peculiar taste with it. I don't know exactly what it was, but er er it was potted meat sandwiches er and tea. Now the other one, the other Were you at school normally? During the strike? Oh yes, we were at school. Yeah. Yeah. Er the other one was towards the latter end of the strike and er this particular area, the Notts area,er had what was called broken away from the er from the main body er of the strike. There were some er some er miners in Notts who were persuaded er to go back to work. Er, as against the decision of the er of the union. And of course this created this created a a tr a tremendous problem, because er these few people that went to the er odd pits were in need of er a very strong police escort. And there were hundreds of police who were drafted into the into the town,er billeted on the er local pubs, er and so on. And d it was the duty of these police to protect these er er these people, these scabs as they were called,er and escort them from their homes to the pit, and see them back. See them back home. Er and I remember er er a a very vivid occasion of being on Road, which is close by the er Hucknall Colliery about three o'clock time, when er a couple of these er er people were being escorted back towards the centre of the town, after they'd done er a day's work and there were lots and lots of er er er people about, men and women, who were shouting and jeering, at er at er at these at these people, who had been er who had er er violated the union decision and gone to work. And there were quite a large collection of police who stood in reserve up one of the side streets. And er anyway, the situation was getting out of hand, and er the man in charge, the the the the superintendent, whoever he was, he gave the signal that these that these reserves should er should clear the street to make way for the to make way for the scabs. And er they drew their truncheons, that I'd never seen before, policemen with truncheons, er and they started to run and everybody else started to run, and I forgot there was a puppy dog, this puppy dog it it chased it chased towards the er p policemen, and started er barking and d and carrying on, and one of the policemen did no more than thump it straight across the top of the head with a with a truncheon, and er and that was the end of the puppy. Well everybody everybody really er began to scamper. Er, people would try front doors to see if they could get in front doors, but no,and they dived down er er er entrances between the between the houses and so on. Er, and all in all, it was quite er it's quite it was quite an experience, er er to have seen er this this er this police er er baton charge,er and er we were fortunate enough in in being able to to to get out of the way. Those are the two e are the two experiences the the question of food and the f er the s the soup kitchens, and the er er police protection for those who er er went to violate the decisions er of the union. Now about these these people, these blacklegs, what were they, were they local people, or were Oh yeah. they people drafted in? They were local people then? They were local people, yes. And what was the attitude over and above, other than obviously coming in and out of work, what was the attitude of the local neighbours and whatnot towards them ? Well er th er this is one of the misfortunes er is it not, you see, this bad feeling. This bad feeling er lived on into old age. Lived on into old age. Er What were the kind of conditions of the people who w who went back in, did they go in bec because of they had, erm say large families or something like that and they had difficulty trying to make ends meet? Er I don't know whether that I don't know whether that was a factor, er er er looking back er er I wouldn't know. But there was a a I know there was a a system in Notts you see whereby er the coal was dug on the basis of contracts between the management and er a man or two men Mm. and these two men would employ half a dozen other men, you see, and whether w whether it was for to to to to get a foothold in the future for to be one of these contractors or not, I j I just don't know. You see. Now what about your own family, how did you manage, how did you make ends meet with the er four children ? Well we were fortunate, we were fortunate. Er, in so far that my father had been dismissed from the er from the coal mining industry, er before just before nineteen twenty six,and he was officially unemployed. So the family, we as a family were better off than the majority of er of families er in so far that er er whilst we were a a fair sized family, we did have at least some income, in the form of unemployment pay er that my father received. Mm. Er,my brothers brothers er older than me who were indeed er boys working in the pit, they didn't get, they didn't get any relief, or er any income. Did they did Except they or you have to get any c casual work, I mean y sort of part-time little jobs? Er ? Yeah, well, er they did a little bit of er pea-picking. They went to Spalding area, pea-picking. And one or two er little odd jobs like this er for er for the summer period, but er obviously these harvest jobs er didn't last very long. But there was a movement, there was a movement, because these single men had no income whatever,and there was a demonstration of er of these er single men, they marched to the workhouse, er in Baseford. Er,the city, not the city, the the Baseford Hospital. Er they they they marched, you see they'd no income, they'd nothing. They they marched to the er to the workhouse, demanding that they should be taken in, you see. Er, on the basis that er that er that er they were destitute. But they were not allowed in because. A they couldn't er they couldn't get er th they couldn't provide accommodation for all the hundreds that they were, you see. And B of course er the political set up was such that they were not interested er in helping er the miners over this er over this particula particularly difficult er period. And why do you think was that? They di they didn't want to feed those on strike, they wanted to try and get them back to work did they? Er, yeah, well, one one can appreciate in er in in circumstances of real hard struggle, Yeah. the likes of which the twenty six strike was, you see, there there was no er there was no holds barred. .Y your political affiliation was either one way or the other, and er er er you didn't er you didn't m mince words about it, did you not, I mean you . You didn't show you didn't show any er er either any enthusiasm or sympathy for the other side. Now what about other members of the of your family? Were they active in in organizing in, in participating in the picketing and this kind of thing,? Yes, oh yes, they were er they were involved. So much so of course that er that er the the elder brother, he was er he was er a branch official by this time, twenty six, at the er Hucknall Colliery, the local colliery, and of course when the strike er was over, er that was the end of he as far as working in the in the coal mining industry in this particular area, that was the end of it. They er they just had their blacklists and er and er that was it, you you you were out, and you weren't going do er, you know, you were not allowed to have another job. Now I don't know if you remember anything about the nine days of the General Strike, as opposed to the s sort of the whole miners' strike in that year. Yeah. Do you remember anything special about Yeah. those nine days? Yeah. In comparison to ? Yeah, well er yeah, there was there was er one er er course er er we kids w looked upon er er these activities w with some with some interest you know? Er for example it was better than going to school. And th the local there was a local brewery, now I I can't quite remember which brewery it was, during the er during the General Strike,they er they decided to er to send out barrels of beer. Er . Obviously to the to one of their pubs. And the vehicle got as far as Hucknall Marketplace,er and that was it. The it was halted there,and er all the barrels of ale were were were were rolled off,we were rolled off the vehicle. And er they were just they were just in the in the act of of of tapping of tapping a couple of these barrels, and er i it was unfortunate that the that the police showed up. So consequently,th there was no er ,the there was no free beer. But I ve I ve I very well remember that one. Er I remember too er there was some attempt made to stop a train, which er which was run er on what was then known as the Great Central Line, that runs through, that runs through Hucknall. Er I know that there was quite a business about this, but er I wasn't an eyewitness, er and I didn't er I'm never so sure that er I I didn't get the I didn't get the details right. Er it seems it seems that there were a lot of students, from one of the bigger un er er top class universities which were handling this train,er but er there were quite a few er things done, some of them I would think dangerous. But er apparently, er this train whilst it was halted, it was halted locally, but after a while it er it er it did get away, and it proceeded towards er towards er Sheffield. What happened above er above Hucknall er I just don't know. Now if we er if we can just move on move on back to your tt starting your working life, Yeah. Erm, and y you er said that you that you started work in a butcher 's. W did you have a proper apprenticeship? Not re No. No. No proper training? Oh no, no. And what were y What were the kind of jobs that you were expected to do then? Well, er there was er er keeping the place cleaned, er there was er doing deliveries work, there was er the making up of er certain items, sausage, er etcetera, er and you were also ex expected to help in the er in the slaughterhouse. Er and you sort of er er a general labourer actually, but you picked up some knowledge, some knowledge of the of the er business. What er what sort of wages were you getting for that? Well the wages then was er w started at er ten shillings, ten shillings a week, that's fifty P a week, you see. And wh how did that compare with other lads of your age? Was that good or bad? Oh er now th that was that was that was pretty poor, er probably employed in the co-op in those days, would would have attracted er er er a fourteen shillings, er nearly half as much again. Er, perhaps in the mining industry, you would have got er thirteen shillings, something like this. And what sort of hours did you have to work then? Shop work, is that a long, how long a day would you have? Oh hours, it was er it was er six er six full days a week,seven in the morning to six at night that is. Er. Now, er if we could come on a little bit, erm, tt when was it that you became sort of officially politically active, when you actually joined er joined the party? Oh well that would be the er I was a member of the er I was a member of the trades union whilst I was in this private distribution. There weren't many others, er perhaps only four more er in the in the town, but we were associated with the with the er branch which looked after the interests of the co-op employees. Er but er political affiliations,er serious political affiliation, that that would start about nineteen thirty one, or perhaps nineteen thirty two. And and what did you join? Well I joined the I joined the Young Communist League at that stage. And er if we could just go into a little bit about, this was in Hucknall? This was in Hucknall, yeah . . What what erm what sort of activities did you organize then, what sort of thi events did you ? Well we did er we did a fair amount of er er leaflet er distribution. Er,there were one or two of us, not many we helped the er Communist Party branch proper, in their campaigns for er council elections, er sales of the er of the Daily Worker, as as as it was known er in those days. Er,we had a fair amount of activity supporting the s marchers of the er unemployed. Er, I would think we made ourselves generally useful. Probably too much so on the political side,in so far that er er looking back, it seems that w w we were isolated from other young people, in so far that we were associated with straight political er activity and er straight political movement . Mm. Well why w would why would you say that, what what s what s was your sort of membership, where from what groups of people did you draw your members from? Well, they were much the same, local workers. Er, a couple of lads who were who were unemployed, er we were never able to break in the mining industry, at this particular stage. We were never able to er we were never able to get young miners er in these in the very early days immediately after nineteen twenty six onwards, to er to er to be associated with the er Young Communist League. And why do you think that was? Was it was it or would you say it was ? Well er this wa this was this was this was very clear, this was very clear you see. When you look back, when you look back you see, erm, understand that after nineteen twenty six, at the local pits,if you if you took a watch, if you took a watch to work with you,so that you're in a position to know the time, and tell the other people what the time was, you see, you were running the serious risk of losing your job. Now this, this may this may appear , this may this may may be a this may appear to be a a a something farfetched, might this. This is exactly what the situation was. Because they developed a system of mining, whereby once once it was the the the task had begun to clear the coal face of a certain er a certain area of coal,it didn't matter what what happened during that particular period of time, whether all the machinery broke down, etcetera, etcetera,you had to stop u until that amount of coal had been cleared off, you see. And they were not having anybody in the mine, with a watch, who could let people know exactly what the time was, and in other words, create a situation where the men might go home before they'd completed this particular task. But that that indeed er was the situation. Er so much so, you see that er er er people who did have employment in the industry would not, would not be seen talking to left-wing Labour party people, or members of the Communist party, because they readily understood, you know, that here was a risk that they were running, whereby they may indeed lo er er lose their employment. Er and so the therefore you see, these are some of the reasons why w we were unable to get close to the er er er younger members, who were or or or the younger people who were employed in the coal industry. Now, However, the situation was changed later on. Er what was your relationship with people, as you say, on the left in the La in the Labour party? With the Labour party generally? Or w or and with the youth in the I L P and the Labour . party with their youth sections, what was your relationship with them? Well the funny thing was that er the local Labour party n didn't have didn't have a youth er a youth section. It were shame, it were shame that those who would er have been the youth section in in the Labour party locally were we people, who were who were in the Youth Communist League, you see. Er but the relationship with the er with the Labour party, and particularly the left in the Labour party, was not er was not too bad at all. Was not too bad at all, because er d d d everybody was inv involved in some sort of endeavour, either er er through the unions, or through the er demonstrations against unemployment, you see, so there there was indeed er a a certain coming together. Er when the election, local elections were on of course, er er er i we were n not quite so friendly to each other , because er each had got candidates er contesting for the er for the same er for the one er particular seat. How wh what sort of how how did that feel, then er er one minute you were fighting together on er an unemployed Mm. demonstration, and the next minute you were fighting against Mm. one another, what er wh did that cause any personal antagonism? Er, only in very very odd cases. Only in very odd cases. Er I don't think er the L on the left it didn't much matter, on the left it didn't much matter, er er er er the right-wing types were probably not so er not so very happy about the situation. Now, you've you've talked about these activities, erm,. And wi and parliamentary-wise, you see, Yes. there was a er a fairly good er fairly good er M P, a fellow named Seymour Cox. Er, he was not a brilliant orator, er but er by and large he was er he was er he he he was he he was a pretty good and well respected er member of parliament. Erm,if we can just talk a bit about the the the activities, the question of the demonstrations against unemployment, what did you actually do to to aid those demonstrations? Were these the national marches as well as local ones? Oh yes. The national marches er the the er the Yorkshire the Yorkshire contingent er would come through here. Er and when the Yorkshire contingent didn't come through here, you'd get the er er er Notts er contingent, which er would join up with the Derbyshire contingent, er a wee bit a wee bit lower down, wee bit lower down the er er down the country, so er in every er in every er activity against er unemployment, they'd the locals who were who were obviously involved. And what sort of things did you actually do to help the national hunger marchers then? What practical support did you give them? Er well we'd er er distribute the leaflets, we'd er do what was known as the whitewashing, in other words, er er er whitewash slogans, whitewash times of meetings,whitewash the announcement of er er times of arrival, er and things of this character. And what about their accommodation and things like that, did you or or the food, did you do anything like that ? Er invariably the co accommodation was er was provided in the in the local halls, there were two local halls in those days, but er primarily the public hall,wi that was the local council hall. Er, this er provided the er this provided the accommodation. They all slept there, you know, they s th they they they slept rough. But it was warm, er and er meals were provided for them. And do you have any specific memories of er the hunger marches? Because it must be thirty two and thirty six, mainly you'd be talking about wouldn't it? Yeah. Early thirties, yes. The two main ones. And what Do you have any sort of memories that you can describe of of the marches in coming to ? Er I remember one I remember one demonstration, we were able to er we were e employed you see, er we we didn't we didn't participate in the er in a national march, but what we were able to do on one occasion was er to raise enough money for one or two of us, for to er go to London by the train, and er be in Hyde Park when er the er the various contingents from e er from various areas er of London, marched er marched into er marched into Hyde Park. And er it was quite er it was quite something you see to see these er thousands of er of er and they were well-disciplined, er in demonstration, with banners, with their elected leaders at the front, march into er march into er er Hyde Park, er they had bands playing, they had er er perhaps er fifteen or sixteen platforms, you know from which the er various working class leaders er er spoke, to I don't know how many people,wh who er who who would be in H Hyde Park on on on on er on this particular day. But er as much as anything, that in itself was er er one of the ai you know one of the er high points that the er I remember of this particular period. Hyde Park erm was it to see the arrival of the hunger marchers, can you remember what year that was? I can't no, I can't. And er Er it could have been thirty two er er er. Now can you remember any of the local initiatives, or any of the local activities that took place against unemployment? What what sort of things that went on. Erm well there was er there was the local organization for the unemployed, the national union, the er national unemployed workers' movement. They they had a very strong well-organized er well-organized branch locally. Er and these people er understood what could be got f er what little bits could be got out of the er various unemployment er acts, and er this knowledge, er plus the pressures and feelings that were able to be brought to bear, I'm quite sure did er did benefit many er many people who who were unemployed. Er, for example, er whilst people w were getting what er the unemployment act said they should have, er this pressure was er I'm quite sure, able to get some additional er benefits even if it was er only in kind, er from the from the local authorities. Now wh erm can you remember any of the sort of i initiatives, I mean did anything take place in Hucknall? Er not beyond not beyond the er the marketplace the er marketplace meetings. Er, summertime, good weather,the these meetings were a feature of er the you know the political lie, er in the wintertime, similar meetings and activities were undertaken er in the public hall, er in in in the local hall. But er er exact er victories if you in that respect, it's hard to it's hard to say whether they were any. And er how how many people did you get at at these street meetings in the marketplace ? In the public i in the marketplace? Yeah. Ooh, round about er three hundred. Yeah. Oh yes, it was, you could get a meeting there, you could get a meeting there. And there was interest, there was heckling, there was er er er etcetera etcetera, you see? And it had been known that er the Tories that the Tories through the medium of er the economic league, you know, their their propaganda organization, the economic league, which was er which was substantially supported by the by the coal owners . Yeah. obviously, er they th they'd been known they'd been known to come, er and try and have a meeting. They they usually didn't finish it, but er they started,so er there was a fair amount of er of er of er interest in the marketplace. Now you you told me er er before about this er the unemployed used to gather weekly in in in the in the public hall, what Yeah. was this? What what took place at these meetings? Well, they would have a er they would have a singsong, they would have er their own er er local artists, you know, er What would that be, not just sort of Play School songs, it would be anything would it?. Anything, anything, anything. Oh yes, yes. Anything. Er instrumentalists, local instrumentalists but er overall of course it er i i i i it was the er er unemployed workers' organization. And was there any sort of political activities organized then? Erm, meetings or classes or anything like that? Yes, there was er a fair amount of er straight political er er education. Er, for example classes were, my mother organized some classes, other people organized classes. Er for example, I remember in , a couple of miles down the road, in the er Hall,there was er there was weekly classes on er among other things on Marxian economics, you see. We had no money in our pockets, but er we're talking about er er er economics, and Marxian economics at that , er and funnily enough the chap the chap who did that, er Bert , he was unemployed, he was he was one of the fellows from Derbyshire who was victimized in Derbyshire. Er, he was a lecturer, and er er a couple of fags and he was a couple of cigarettes and he was he wa he wa he was er quite well quite well er r rewarded. But he, he became he became the area secretary, of the Derbyshire miners er Derbyshire miners organization. Er, and you've got er you've got er political er educational classes, similar to this, both in Hucknall, er and in the and in the surrounding area. And did you, even though you were employed, did you actually participate ? Oh yes, yes yes. Er,of a Friday evening, of a Friday evening, er I would attend er er a national council of labour colleges lecture, a fellow named u u us us used to run this one. Er,and then er I also attended er er political discussions and lectures which were laid on er by the communist party as well. And this went on for years this? Oh yes, over a long period. Over a long period. Now, what about your your life outside of work, and outside of political activity, did you have much leisure activities? Er not really. I er I was a keen cyclist. Er, mind many people, many people relied on the cycle er for to get about you see. Er if we attended if if we were due to attend a meeting for example in in in Derby, er er twenty mile away? Er, well, you went on a bike, you see. Er er if if you er er if you attended were to attend er a meeting in Nottingham, you went on your bike, or Mansfield you see. Er and apart from them, I was er I was er I was a fairly er keen er cyclist, and did er did a little bit of camping too. But er Right. Where did you used to go? Why what did you used to do? Er well we had a camp, the Youth Communist League had a camp down at er a place called Lamley Dumbles,that was er that was not far er not far from Colliery. Er quite a successful camp that, quite a successful camp. Er what sort fifty or sixty er er of a weekend, you know who who would attend, who would attend that. And what sort of things did you get up to? Er well we had er er a very fine er er wind-up gramophone, and we had some marvellous records. Some er some very good erm records I should say decent music. Er What do you mean by that, decent music? Pardon? What do you mean by decent music? Well, er you'd get er light opera, and er er and er you know Gilbert and Sullivan and and and and and Yeah. and this sort of thing. Er which was er which was always er which was always enjoyable. Mm. Er apart from, you'd get a ramble, you know y y you'd go along for for for for a ramble, er my most most of the time was er made up er by er cooking your grub, you know ? Mm. Messing about with the wi wi with the er food. Now, what about other things? I mean did you ever have time for dances, and going to the pictures and that kind of thing, I mean you must have found some time ? Er, well that that kind of thing, that As a young man. that was always a question of money, Yeah. you know, and er you just didn't er you just didn't have er er y you may get a cinema once a week, or perhaps a dance once a week, but that er that wa that was the limit, you know. But you ma you managed to fit in some other sort of Oh yes. social life over and above it, as a sort of relax , you know, Yeah, yeah. yeah? That was what I was trying to get at. And then you know so l try and bring that on,y you erm you got married in the thirties, That's right. and how did you get round to to meet your wife then? Well she was er er she was involved with er er the cooperative youth organization, known as the er Co-op Comrades Circle. Er, and all all of these organizations, you see, one way or another, their paths crossed and er erm people met people this way. And can you remember how exactly you met your wife? Er I don't know, er I don't know I'm not er I do er I had this brother, I had this brother, and he was er he was a lecturer you see, and he was supposed to g go to West Bridgford to talk to this Co-op Comrades Circle on the problems of the Saar. Er I I don't know whether you know about the Saar? That that the area in Germany you mean? That's right. Yeah. Between France and Germany you see. And he sent me to tell them he couldn't come, you see. . Er and i something like this. And so you met your wife there? , aye. Erm, and how long was it before you got married? I don't know really, I married in er early thirty six, er er er Now, your your wife wasn't a member of the communist party? She was by this time. Yeah? Er Wha what did she think by er she was a member before she got, before she married then? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Er so she was she wasn't bothered at all about your er Oh no no no, no no . your activities when you first started. So how did you er manage when you first got married then? Did your wife work at all? Yes, well she she er she did a bit of work and er we lived What what job did she do? in a comparatively comparatively cheap er cheap little flat, with er some other party members you see. So we were Whereabouts Hucknall? this was in ba the exact centre of Hucknall. Er near the marketplace, overlooking the marketplace. But of course er that's gone now, that that's all gone now, and by one means or another we were able to er to er live comfortably, anyway. And your wife was from West Bridgford originally, was she? Yeah, yeah . Yeah. Well she lived down there, but she originates from Derbyshire,. And w er did sh you said she got some work, what what job did she do then to help? Erm, mostly of a domestic nature. And you were still working in the butchers' at this time? That's right. That's right. Now, er if we could come on now, it was in nineteen thirty six that you went to Spain? Well, it was thirty seven. Thirty seven was it ? Yeah. Erm,now can you tell me about how you how you decided to actually, you know why you decided to actually go to Spain in the first place? Well er you see, the b the the the political background, er played a very important part,er and the fa and the struggle against fascism in this er early thirty period, was er was really something. Er it's difficult for people to appreciate today er the amount of political activity that took place during this early thirty period, and it's pe difficult for people to appreciate the political understanding that did exist over this period. And not only political understanding, but political determination to do something about it. And the er the er struggle of the Spanish people r really captured the imagination of er huge sections of the er of the majority of the people er er in Britain. And you'd got you'd got a tremendous buildup you know of er of enthusiasm, of determination you see, er and obviously er people wanted to give er expression to their support to the maximum. Er people quite a f few people went to er er went to Spain. Bef before I went, er I er quite a few of my friends went. You see, and it's er it er it's this j this background you see which er er er convinced people that er they ought to you know help the Spanish people in a real, serious, and er and personal capacity. Because they'd got a tremendous struggle on, they'd got a tremendous struggle on, they were struggling against tremendous odds,they were struggling against er er all sorts of er er of er of trickery, that er was being conducted by quite a quite a few of the er quite a few of the major powers. And it was this background you see that er that er th th that gave me at least the need for to to play some some part in Mm. helping along the struggle against er er against fascism. Now did you go with friends? Did you go with you know your friends and comrades at the time? Well, I er er I picked up I picked up er I picked up people in London, but , locally locally er I went er individually. I went on my own. How did you know people had gone before you though?. Well we got letters back, we Yeah. Your . your friends had gone, though, you had gone . Oh yes yes yes. Er in fact in fact, a a c a couple of them are o er b were killed there. Er er one from Mansfield, er one from Nottingham. Now can you tell me a bit about you your your journey down there? Er we were well it it it was fairly well-organized, it was fairly well-organized it was er. Well how, you you got to London did you? And then ? Yeah, you're in need of er you're in need of er getting to London. Er, and to get to London, probably the local people would help raise the er would help raise the fare, but having er er having got to London, er you contacted the organization, er you would then took a er weekend ticket, took a weekend ticket to er to Paris. This was a, you know, a return er a return ticket. Cost about one pounds twenty five, or the equivalent of one pounds twenty five P. But er you got to Paris, you got an address in Paris, they gave you a bed,couple of meals Now who who ga who supplied the money? Were you given the money or did you have to pay for that yourself? Oh no, you er they er provided the ticket, you see, they provided the ticket. Mm. Oh there was no such thing if they gave you the money, you might nip off.. . No, they they provid they gave you the tickets you see. Mm. How we got there, er you you you got er you got some food, ad you got a bed for er for a couple of days. Er, you then had got another ticket, and er train ticket, and you went to the south of France by train,and er you got a bed and a couple of meals there er then you had a bus ride. They provided a bus, you had a bus ride and you picked up a couple of guides er, who during the night would take you over the er take you over the er Pyrenees, er over the mountains er, the Pyrenees, you see becau er you're in need of a guide because the er the frontier posts etcetera etcetera were shut, were closed. Er, and they were also guarded. And er you were in need of er er finding a way over the Pyrenees which er gave you a chance of er getting to the other side, so hence er you needed er you needed French er er French guides. And they were guarded by Franco's troops? Pardon? They were guard guarded by Franco's troops? Ah well you didn't go over, you didn't go over er where Franco's troops were, but Mm. they were guarded by French troops, you see . I see. Yeah. Er there was not a lot of enthusiasm for this er th this guarding which went on you see, because everybody was in sympathy er with the cause of the republican government, the S the Spanish republican government. Now, So it was er only half-hearted as far as er as far as the er the er activities of the guards on the frontiers from the French side were concerned. Now, where did you go to once you were in Spain? Well, we went to a place called Figueres That's just inside er that's just inside, er just inside Spain, what . they have it's a it's an old an old fort, from the grander days of the er history of Spain yeah. And er from there, from there we we er we were er we were obviously then enrolled there, and we then went to er a training base of Albusate Now how more or less in the er almost in the middle of Spain. Tt how long had the erm journey took you then from from from Nottingham down to Albusate From here to to er republican territory? Yeah. Perhaps six days. And it was quite short then? The er . Oh yeah yeah, it was quite short, yeah. Yeah. Now what happened when you got to er Albusate the me ? This was what was there, it was the international brigade ? Well that was the that was the er base headquarters of the international brigade,Albusate And then from there,w you were farmed out to the village, which was er er sort of the base, who are responsible for your er particular national battalion, you see er, the the the French people, they they er w they would be in one village, the English and the Canadians er er Americans would be er in this place that we were at, called Tarrazona Er and the Germans w , the German anti-fascists would be er in another. Er like wh when I was with the It er the Italian anti-fascists, you see. And what er How many different nationalities were there then?? Well, you you you name the nationality and they were there, you see. They were a everybody was there. And not just Europeans? Oh no, no. Who who from outside of Europe ? No, there were there were Indonesian, there were there we the the there were Chinese, there was er the there were Mexicans, there were er Ce people from er Central America, South America, from everywhere. Now, given the different nationalities,wa wasn't there a communication problem? Language problem? Well, er er there there al there always is, isn't there? There is a there is but er er but er er the medium er er as best it could be used was was Spanish you see. See? And it's surprising the number of people er who do speak Spanish. You see, because everybody everybody from Mexico, right down to the er to the tip of South America, for example,er speak one dialect or another of er of er of of of of Spain, of the Spanish language, and large areas of er of er the Indes you see, er and Italian is not a long way from it, you see, so er er er it it on the surface it may seem to have have been difficult, but the er you know there we we we did get by. Did you manage by pick did you pick up a few words yourself? Ah, yes, just a few. Everybody managed by Yeah. doing that did they? Yeah, yeah. And er what what was the point, it was like a training camp as well was it? That's right, yeah. Now what what kind of er training did you get? Well er we got we got the use of er er of rifles, you know, there weren't many, because they were wanted er they were wanted at the er front. There were one or two rifles they were er, you know, . so we did indeed get some basic er basic military training. We fired rifles, and and and and and this and this sort of thing. Er, we did er you know practise military formations as they were as they were practised in er in those days and so on. So we did er we did indeed get some er basic military training. Erm what about your standard of living? What what kind of food did you get, and where were you living at the time? Er,well there was always a problem er food-wise, because there was a scarcity, there was a sc an overall scarcity er of food. Er er and the Spanish coast, you see, was blockaded. You see it was er whilst it was er er a democratically, legally elected government, you see there were such people as er er as Mussolini, from Italy, fascist Italy,and er er er Hitlerite Germany you see, who had got units, naval units, air units etcetera, blockaded. Blockaded the er er the ports of er of republican Spain. And consequently, er the blockade did have er did have serious er serious consequences for the imports in relation to food etcetera, that er that were required by the er by the republican government. So what sort of I remember there was one fellow, er an Englishman, he was known as Potato Jones. He used to he used to run his own ship, er a little coastal a little coastal er er vessel. Er, and he he used to run he used to run food to er the in er in this in this boat, a fellow named Potato Jones, I don't know why he was known as Potato Jones, Er was was he politically inclined, was he Er this I don't know, this I don't know, but er or was it a bit of opportunist entrepreneur ? Yeah. He was an he he was an he was a hero you see, er er er You don't know whether he did it from an entrepreneur's point of view, or from er No. Exactly why, he must have had some sympathy, mustn't he ? . Er now, And and and the food, on Yeah. the question of food Yeah, yeah. you see it was er er er it could have been er it could have been er better done, but er, we got by, we got by. What what exactly kind of meals did you have? What were they? Most of it most of it is most Rice is it? of it was soup. Most of it , Was it? most of it was soup. I was ever so sure that er that that there was a goodly number of er er er well there was a qu quite a substantial fall in the in the in the donkey population, er . er in Spain, because we reckoned it was only donkey that went in that went into the er burro as they call it , went into the went into the soup, you know with the beans and er er er various types of lentils and so on. And er the bread. The bread wasn't bad, the bread wasn't bad. Did you ever get any let up from that though? Did you ever have a decent meal ? Er n not really, you you may talk your way into some peasant's house, and er er he'd give you a scrambled egg or or something like this, and er that was something, if you got a scrambled egg. And what about oth other other supplies, I mean clothing, and cigarettes and that kind of thing, was that ? ? . Well, you had what you went in you see, er you may get a you may have got a a trench-coat, or a poncho, you know, er er sort of a big cloak, er but er uniform in the in the accepted military sense, er, no.. Mm. And what about cigarettes? Pardon? How about did you manage for them? Cigarettes? Well, er er a similar, er when you got a letter, when you got a letter,so you you'd probably get you'd probably get four or five Woodbines, you see, er things like this, and there was an issue from time to time, and they were chiefly American cigarettes, chiefly American cigarettes. Now, Perhaps once a week you'd get twenty of those, but er there there was a local tobacco, you know. But er, you'd got to be a man and a half to be able just to to smoke to smoke the local stuff.. Now how long were you were you at this er camp before you ? Oh er perhaps a couple of months. No longer. Now how how was the army itself organized, did you was it in the in the normal normal sense of the army Oh yes. or was it Yes, it was organized and it and er yes. There were companies, er and there'd be probably three companies to a battalion, something like this, depends on the arms, er and then er you'd get three or four battalions to er to a brigade, you see. But you had political commissars ? And we had political commissars, oh yes, yes . And what what sort of a role did they play, then? What did they do? Er, well,they had a difficult job, they had a difficult job you see, because they'd got to keep explaining to you why you hadn't got a rifle. And er and when you're fighting a war, you see and er and and and er and you haven't got a rifle, I mean it's a serious problem. So the political commissar has got to convince you, you see, as to who was responsible for you not having a rifle. Er in other words in other words,their task was one of er of holding, maintaining, you know,er a political enthusiasm,you know and er and er a political discipline, see? So when things aren't going very well, you see, the the the f these these are the chaps that's got to do, they've got to do the explaining. But er did they have er any other sort of job to do though? I mean did they you know deliver political speeches to try and . Oh yes, yes, yes. . This was their role, this was their role, you see. Erm and how did that go down well, did it er did it work in practice ? Well it more or less, it more or less it was accepted. . Because he's talking,he's he's talking to er er a fairly high er political level of understanding Mm. you see. Mm. And wh what happened then? Wh where did you go to anyway when you when you were sent to the front ? Oh well er I joined the er I joined the er British battalion, er er up the front, not far from a place called er . interesting, you said the British battalion,th y , in your own battalions you kept your own nationality. Oh yes, aha. So that language Yeah. Although for a time for a time, I was er I was with er er er an hotchpotch, mixed up outfit,wh which included er Americans, Canadians,er and British. But mainly but English speaking? Oh aye, yes, they were all English speaking , . oh yes, yeah. But anyway when y you were first sent with the British battalion to , was that?. Well then I went to the British battalion, Mm. not far . Erm did you have all your equipment by this time, then you did get a rifle ? More or less, more or less. Er, you'd never got er you'd never got enough er if you'd got a rifle, er you didn't have many rounds of ammunition, and things like this, you see. So there was never er there was never an an abundance of anything, as far as that went. Now were you involved in many battles? Not many. No. Er I was involved in the in the this battle that resulted in the breakthrough by the er by the er by Franco's fascists, at , er What what sort of things went on, erm was it close fighting or did you never see Yeah, it it got fairly close. Er it ought not to have done in so far that er we were we were we were we were moving, we were going forward to take up positions on er on the river, er and this was being done on the understanding that er a certain bridge had been destroyed,er and it hadn't been destroyed er and they were and they were they were already across you see. They were already our side, This is the nationalist army, yeah? and er they did indeed even have tanks across this side. Er and when you ain't got any tanks,, and he's got some tanks, your your your situation isn't it's it's not very it's not very healthy. They not only had tanks, they had er they had aircraft. In fact, in fact,tt it was a regular army division er from Italy that was doing this job. And so you as a sort of er volunteer army didn't have a lot of Well we you didn't have a lot of chance in these circumstances, in these circumstances when they when they possessed every every piece of modern equipment,or equipment that w was modern in those er in th in those er in those days, and you're not er Was there much ? you're not er er er more heavily armed than er than rifle, and the odd light machine gun. And er he's already he's already got you at a disadvantage,by er er you're on the move and he's waiting for you. Now,d was there much of a battle, or did you realize ? Yes, this went on, it went on for about er three days, it went on for three days. Er but er in the end er in the end they won. Obviously. They Mm. er the air force, the German air force, aye, they had a go as well, they they they they they they they were providing all sorts of er er strafing and bombing, er comma. And it's my contention, it's my contention that them people that were er strafing and bombing me, er outside , er in republican Spain, was the same was the same crowd was the same crowd that were bombing and strafing several years later, in the in in the second world war, in in in France er and Holland. Now, what happened to you then? Well, I was captured, And if we can just er just go back just for for one minute, just to draw a bit of before you were captured, er and whatnot, could you tell us just a little bit about the living conditions that you had when you were actually at the front. Well er aye. Well you j you just live rough, you li you live rough. Er and this particular time of the year, it was summer of course, you we you you weren't overly worried about not having a shelter, you see. You had reached the stage where you could er you could sleep out er and you didn't er er you didn't have a soft bed if er you were you were living rough. And of course er er i i I think it says something it says some thing for the morale, you see, that er and political understanding you see, that you can accept all these things, see, er er and still er and still carry on determined. Now what about your supplies, how did you manage with them? Er most of the supplies, food, was picked up er was picked up locally. Er er it seems we had a very good er er quartermaster, he seemed to always turn up er he seemed to always turn up with something. Er it seems it seems that the English are p pretty good at this sort of thing. And did you ever meet up with your friends from Nottingham at that time? Er, yes. Er Gregory, yes, I saw him. But Gregory, he came down to the er to the base, and then I went out, you see and er er he he was back at the base whil whil whilst this was going on. Although, although I would think that er Waldo Gregory has got the longest er time served in active service than probably er any other individual that went to Spain. he was in at the beginning and he was er he was there at the end, sort of thing . Mm. Er he suffered a couple of wounds as a ma as a matter of fact. Now er what happened once you'd been captured then? Where were you taken? Tt er well we had like I I say, we w we were i we were in the hands we were in the hands of the er Italian army, the er regular army from Italy, we were in their hands er for quite some time. Er there was some relief I should think about this, er er a bit of relief. But after a while, after a while we were handed over to the er Spanish fascist authorities, proper. Er er there was just the one meal a day and a piece of bread and that was your lot. But er after a while, Erm er th they so they treated you quite badly then? Pardon? They they didn't treat you very well? Not r no, not really. No. And di did they They they weren't against laying about you with sticks and stones and rifle butts for no reason at all. And did they pick on any individuals? Er oh yeah, they they would . pick on individuals. There was a a bloke named , er he w he he was er er an Irishman, who who had er a fairly high standing in the Irish er republican movement. Er they were they picked they picked er they picked on him. And as a matter of fact, as a matter of fact, the Germans th th th had thought that he would be of value to them at a later stage,because he was er he was shipped to Germany, and er er I understand that he died in Germany er at the latter end of er of of er of the of the war, the Second World War. Y er er th they they kept him there, they they I think they were hopeful, they were hopeful that he being a republican from Ireland, that er he he c he c he could have been used, you know by the Nazis in er in their general propaganda, directed to Britain er with a Irish er slant on the situation, but er it's quite clear that er that they were never able to use . er er er wouldn't be used, because er he was never heard he was never he was heard,he was never heard, erm similar to this Lord Haw-Haw, you know that used to do the broadcasting er from from Nazi Germany to er to to to Britain, particularly to England. But anyway, he he died almost as a prisoner at er at towards the end of er o er er of the Second World War. Er and they did indeed, they picked er they picked on him. Er but this er that was a that was a er decision of the er er of the German command, of the German army that was in Spain. But after the war,w we went back er under the er under the control of the Italian army. Hello Doctor. Good morning Mrs . Yes. Well young lady, what can we do I'm just up to see about this operation. What's what operation? You know Royal Infirmary Aha. th that was temporary. Yes. And he's the consultant told me, it would take two to three days. I think it's years he means. Have you not heard any more about it? Two cancellations Doctor, two. And that's all you've heard? That's all I've heard. Cos we've never heard any more. No. I just thought I'd come up and speak to you about that. Yes. And it's a thingy that I can't forget about. I can't make any appointments for going That's right. anywhere. That's right. You know. Right well I'll get on to them this morning. Will you? That was Mr ? Yes. Mr was That's right. the man. Yes. Right. Yes. I mean, that's a long time isn't it? Oh yes. Yes. Phone Mr Royal Infirmary Mrs operation. As soon as possible. Now could I have some cramp er tablets Doctor? Yes. For my hands any my feet. And this is where I used to get pain. Now I can be constipatied constipated and I can be the other way. Aha. And Dr that was the only w doctor ever I knew up here. Yes. And he always gave me this bottle That's the syrupy stuff? Yes, and he told me to take a spoonful That's at night a teaspoonful A teaspoonful before you go to your bed . Yes. That's right. So could I have that? Yes. Please. I I'm not really a doctor person really, but this is really troubling me up here you know . Oh yes. Oh aye. You should heard long before this. Oh it's a terrible thing Doctor . That's that's a terrible old thing . And I'm eighty eighty two, I'll be eighty three in December. Aha. And you're not getting any younger. I'm not getting any younger, but mind you I'd like to get it done. Yes. Because I can't take any freedom. That's right. That's right. Now. Mark this in here. We were getting the sun weren't we? Aye, today, today. Now that was yours Your er Cramp. Your erm quinine. Was it you quinine? Tab tablets. Was it Oh yes. the quinine tablets? The old fashioned ones. For the cramp. was for this c for the cramp? Yes yes it is still. Sometimes I got to get up in the night and walk about and Mhm. my hand's cold. But that oil, it seemed to help me a lot . Oh yes, it just eases Just a teaspoonful. That's right, just eases things through.? No I can't do with anything. No no no no. Doctor used to say, Never you take a laxative. No no. No that's the worst thing you could do. Yes. Have you had your holidays Doctor? No no. No? October. October. There we are and I'll I'll get on to the Royal this morning. Thanks ever so much Doctor. And I'll be And we'll try and get worked out to you this week. greatly obliged to you. Right Mrs , Yes. I'll just go straight through just now. Right and thank you Doctor . Now have we got your phone number? Er. Yes. Wait a bit, Yes that's right. That's right ,. Okay. we know where to find you. Thanks Doctor, thanks very much. Right that's enough. Bye bye. Right cheerio now. both aged eleven accused of killing James Bulger a boy of two. The body of the toddler was found in February two days after he disappeared from a shopping centre in Bootle. The defendants are also charged with abduction and attempting to abduct another boy of two on the same day. The Prime Minister is to make a statement on Northern Ireland in Commons this afternoon. He'll tell MPs that the Government is trying to restart negotiations involving all the constitutional parties in the Province. Meanwhile police in Northern Ireland are continuing to question eight people about the massacre at a pub in County Londonderry on Saturday night. Seven people died in the attack on the Rising Sun at Greysteel. Five of those injured are still in hospital one is critically ill. A Nottinghamshire Day Centre which caters for more than a hundred mentally handicapped people is facing closure. Beaver Vale in Bingham looks likely to become the latest casualty of cuts to the county's social services budget. A number of children's homes and old people's homes are also likely to be shut down. The authorities say they'll provide alternative services for everyone who uses the Centre and that they hope to redeploy the forty staff. The Social Services Director David White says closing Beaver Vale is the best option available to them. We've taken a number of factors into account one of which is the lower occupancy levels at Beaver Vale. We've looked at the current number of users, where they live, the journey times that they have often provided by us on tra transport and the possibilities of where we can relocate them and clearly we have a number of centres in the Nottingham er conurbation which will be made available to those users from Beaver Vale. The singer Elton John has taken a national newspaper to court over an article last December which claimed he was hooked on a bizarre diet which meant he spat out food without swallowing. Elton John is seeking exemplary damages against Mirror Group Newspapers which publishes the Sunday Mirror. Mallory Geld reports from the High Court in London. The singer's lawyer George Carman Q C told the court the Sunday Mirror story was headlined, Elton's diet of death and the secret of slim Elton's spitting image. It claimed Elton John was hooked on eating food and spitting it out and it claimed he told guests at a Los Angeles party, I'm on the don't swallow and get thin diet. The singer who was in court shook his head as the article was read out. Mr Carman said the story was completely untrue. The singer had fought and won his battles against bulimia, drug and alcohol abuse and had publicly spoken about it to help others get over the nightmare of addiction. He said the Sunday Mirror had offered to publish an apology but Elton John had rejected it because the paper had recklessly published the article. Aid workers in central Bosnia have told the United Nations it must act to protect more than a thousand Moslems trapped in the Croatian controlled enclave of Vareys. The warning follows last week's massacre of at least twenty five people in the nearby village of . the head of the operation in central Bosnia said the Moslems had been subjected to blatant human rights abuses and the U N might soon have to evacuate them. He was asked what U N peace keepers were doing to protect Moslem civilians in the area. What is happening is they're patrolling the areas intensively, they're maintaining contact with these er terrified Moslems to try to avert any type of er foul play in the area. Eventually the situation continues to deteriorate which it probably will everything indicates that er the situation in Vareys is explosive, erm the U N nations may be forced to have to evacuate these people and obviously there are implications involved in that. A radical plan to demolish the Commons' Chamber and rebuild it in the shape of a semicircle is being put forward by a Nottingham M P. Labour's Graham Allen argues that if the lobbies were knocked out MPs could have a semicircular debating chamber electronic voting and a named desk each. The weather forecast for Nottinghamshire all parts will stay dry today and although there'll still be a good deal of cloud for much of the time some bright or perhaps sunny intervals are possible. Top temperature nine Celsius forty eight Fahrenheit. B B C Radio Nottingham news it's five minutes past two. Hello and welcome to afternoon special this Monday afternoon linking the East Midlands, and a special special we've got we've got erm a scoop because we've got Foster and Allan as guests on the programme. They're in Nottingham tonight and they're later at the Ritz at Lincoln but they've just heard that they're number one in the hit parade with their new video. So we're the first to have them after them gaining number one. On the hour the news and weather and we'd like to hear from you this afternoon Nottingham three four three four three four the number to ring if you'd like to have a chat on the air. You have to dial the code O six O two if you're ringing from outside the Nottingham area. Collector's corner is the feature round about three thirty so if you want to go on collector's corner if you collect anything for a hobby that's the spot for you. Give us a ring, Nottingham three four three four three four. And we have a competition it's spot the singer it's quite simple when you know the singer it is anyway. So if you'd like to play the game the only rule is that you mustn't have played a phone in competition on this programme in the last four weeks. Give us a ring Nottingham three four three four three four if you think you can spot the singer. There's music throughout starting with Diana Ross. Three four for spot the singer. Stevie Wonder that was and Up Tight and er we've got the eight contestants for the competition so we'll play the game now. First on is Ken of Allerton good afternoon Ken. Good afternoon Dennis. Did you hear the singer last week? I did. All right tell me who this is. Who is it? Er Jimmy James and the Vagabonds. Absolutely right Jimmy James and the Vagabonds er so er you get a prize. Oh thank you very much. Can you call for it to Derby? I can. You're calling at Derby thank you Ken. Okay then Bye. Bye. Prize winner already with Ken and Jimmy James and the Vagabonds and er the postal competition winners coming up now. A prize goes to John of Grimsby. So you got a prize so have you. Carol of Lincoln. Hope you can call for yours at Radio Lincolnshire. And Joan there's a famous name for you of Belper and one more and it's Terry of Leicester, prize for you. So those are our prize winners by post and it was Jimmy James and the Vagabonds next on is Angela of Lincoln. Hello. Did you know it was Jimmy James and the Vagabonds ? Yes I did that's why I rang in. Well see if you know who this is. Okay it's a very famous name any ideas? Er no I haven't. No good all right. No. Thank you for trying. Okay then. Bye Angela. Bye bye bye bye. John of Clifton. Hello Dennis. What do you think John? No idea I knew who that Jimmy James. You did. Yes seventies isn't it? That's right everybody seems to know . But you don't know who this is? No. All right thanks . No idea Dennis. Thanks for trying. Thanks. Bye. Bye. John of New Whittington. Hello there. Carries a famous name she does, any ideas? Er could you bit more of it please? Any ideas? Er I think she used to sing with a group and I think she's gone on her own and I don't know which one to go for. Can go for two then. It were Patti Le Bell No. or the Pointer Sisters. No. Oh. No neither of them . I am surprised yeah. All right. Okay then. Thanks for trying. Okay then. Bye bye Bye. Next contestant is Irene Walker of Lincoln. Irene. Hello don't know it at all. No good at all? No is it the Mojos no no . It's an individual singer carrying a famous name. No no all right thanks for trying. Bye Bye this is the singer you have to identify. Anybody know that one? On the line from Lincoln er Simon . Simon? I've never heard of it Dennis but I'll have a wild stab in the dark it's No carrying a famous name you see. All right okay Simon. Sorry. Bye. Bye. Steven of Green. Hello Dennis is it er Nata Natalie Cole? It's Natalie Cole yes. Nat King Cole's daughter you're right and the prize is yours can you call for it? Er yes I can. Thank you Steven. Okay. Bye. When can I come down for it Dennis? Oh any time between nine and six. Right okay. Okay. Thank you. Bye. Bye. Steven got it, Natalie Cole. Nat King Cole's daughter told you it carried a famous name. All right erm the postal one the postal one. What shall we have for the postal one. Let's have erm let's have a group yes let's have a group tell you what we'll do we'll have a group. We'll have this group identify this group on a postcard to, Spot the Singers Linkmail four one four, Derby Leicester, Lincoln, or Nottingham whichever is closest to you. Postcard to be here by Monday next week identify this group please. Now who's that? Spot the Singers Linkmail four one four Derby Leicester Lincoln or Nottingham that's where you send the postcard to be here by Monday next week identifying that group. Postcards by Monday. Okay that's it that's erm that's our competition over. Now if you'd like to call us and have a chat on the air Nottingham three four three four three four is the number to ring. Lots of inquiries about Foster and Allen they're coming on the programme later they've just got number one for the first time with their new video with their new single I don't know I'm not quite sure we'll find out when they get here well they've just got number one for the first time and they've been trying hard for a long time. So that's great. Now they are at the Royal Concert Hall in Nottingham tonight. Fairly sure in saying that. We're a little bit topsy and turvy cos er our programme researcher Sophie er is er is not with us today and as a result we're a bit topsy and turvy and I haven't got all the papers associated with Foster and Allen but we'll get all the details from F two lads when they come in. Always welcome guests and er I think it a bit tight to get a ticket tonight but there they are Royal Concert Hall if you want to try. Do you want to know about a spectacular firework display? It's at a lovely venue it's at the Great Central Railway at Loughborough. The Great Central Railway Britain's only preserved main line steam railway is hosting a spectacular firework display and bonfire party at the Quorn Station this Friday. It's going to be lit at seven thirty with the firework display starting at seven forty five. And visitors will be treated to a spectacular show with thousands of pounds worth of fireworks on display. Traditional bonfire night fare will be served including hot dogs mushy peas and jacket potatoes and there's also a licensed bar and you can even travel to the bonfire by steam train. Trains depart from Loughborough at six fifteen and six forty five, Leicester North at six fifty and Rothley at five past seven. Alternately admission is available on the gate at Quorn Station. The return train fares including admission to the bonfire from Loughborough adults four pounds children three pounds,Loftb er Leicester North adults six pounds children three pounds, Rothley adults six pounds children three pounds and admission on the gate at Quorn is adults two pounds children one pound fifty. And you can telephone O five O nine two three O seven two six if you want to advance book your train service. All right? O five O nine two three O seven two six if you want to advance book your train. And that gets you admission the firework spectacular at the Great Central Railway and that's at the Quorn Station this Friday seven thirty. Nice one that. Er right we have a call Joan from Derby hello. Hello Dennis. Yes? Right I just wondered if you would mention my animal charities day at St John's Church Hall, on this coming Saturday the sixth of November. What's happening? Er well it's just all the char about thirteen fourteen charities are getting together just to sell their own goods, bric-à-brac and various other things. We're doing refreshments and it's twenty pence to come in. It will be opened by the Mayoress of Derby, Mrs Webster at ten thirty. So it's all in aid of animal charities? Yes that's right. Which animal charities are you interested in? Well mine's the National Canine Defence League. I see now that's one that isn't may not be known to some of our listeners they're used to the R S P C A and the P D S A but the National Canine Defence League what makes it different? Well we have a non-destructive policy. But I've been a member for many years I like the policy and erm my friends and I just decided that we would fund raise for them as they haven't got anyone in this area. We've been going since well September eighty three and I agree with what you say. When we first started people used to say, Canine Defence League never heard of them, but since then people have come up to us and said, Oh I met you last year and I've joined the League. That's very good and since September eighty three that's ten years ago how much have you made? Well we we can't say o overall but we started in a very small way but on average Dennis we raise in the region of two thousand pounds a year. That's very good. It takes a lot of earning. Yeah I bet it does. Yeah you see, bric-à-brac isn't so readily available now there are car boot sales so we have to resort to other means like the sponsored dog walk and er this type of thing. You can offer for the stall when you can't fill a hall Mm. so we've invited everyone to come along. So what time on Saturday? Ten thirty, that's when the Mayoress will open it. So it's this Saturday ten thirty at St John's Church Hall . Park Farm yes. Park Farm Yes. Mm and it's opened at ten thirty by the Mayor. Yes and it's only twenty pence to come in. Okay I hope it goes well for you. Thank you very much Dennis. Bye Joan. Thank you good bye. Nottingham three four three four three four if you'd like to have a chat on the air that's the number to ring. O six O two is the code if you're ringing from outside the Nottingham area then it's Nottingham three four three four three four. So that er animal charities day is at St John's Church, Park Farm oh John St John's Church Hall, Park Farm, twenty pence to get in ten thirty it starts this Saturday. Don't forget the phone number Nottingham three four three four three four. That was the Merseys and Gordon that was. Er now there's a big charity dance happening with Phil Kelsall the resident organist at the Tower Ballroom Blackpool. The dance is taking place er with the big sound of the Alfreton dance orchestra at the Leisure Centre Alfreton er Friday week the twelfth of November. And the tickets are four pounds each. It's put on by the Rotary Club of Alfreton. So if you're interested there you are have a cop. A week on Friday the twelfth of November a week on Friday the twelfth of November a big charity dance at the Al Alfreton Leisure Centre. Er and its music's going to be provided by the great Phil Kelsall, the resident organist at the Tower Ballroom Blackpool. Supported by the Alfreton dance orchestra. It's eight o'clock till midnight and all proceeds for the dance will be donated to local and national charities it's organized by the Rotary Club of Alfreton. So make a note again tickets four quid each, the annual grand charity dance modern old time and sequence. Phil Kelsall the resident organist at the Tower Ballroom Blackpool and the big sound of the Alfreton dance orchestra. A week on Friday the twelfth of November eight till midnight. Now if you'd like two tickets I've got one pair of tickets only, we'll send them by post we need your postcode call us on Nottingham three four three four three four but please make sure that you can use the tickets before you call please. Carrie Ann by the Hollies. The tickets have gone the tickets have gone for the er the Phil Kelsall concert you can get them on the door four quid on the night a week on Friday at eight o'clock at the er Alfreton Leisure Centre but our complimentary tickets have gone, long long gone. Now we've got some a van load of wood to be collected from Derby for bonfire night. Anybody want a van load of wood to be collected from Derby bonfire for a bonfire? Anybody want any wood for a bonfire in the Derby area? Call Derby double five double seven four five please. Derby double five double seven four five if you want wood for a bonfire in the Derby area. Derby double five double seven four five. Fred Brown of Calverton, Fred. Yes good afternoon Dennis. Yes. Er I just ringing through to say that I heard your er broadcast last week in respect of Carnfield Hall and I went on Saturday afternoon a gentleman named Hugh rang you up. That's right he was it was an open day wasn't there? Yes er yes. What's it what's it like? Well it er I was very it's not a stately home it's the equivalent I would say to a sort of erm lower landed gentry upper er working class sort of place. Yes. Erm it's very very original a lot of original in it. The I think the only changes he did tell us was in sixteen eighty when they put sash windows on the front. Erm the gentleman who took us round who was excellent er what impressed me was the fact that it was no sort of straight patters one gets with guides you know when you go round these places. Mm. It was erm the sort of commentary was er interspersed with anecdotes and it was really excellent and there was even a little bit of a mention of a connection with er D H Lawrence in respect of the lady of the house at one time of day was er er had er assignation with the local gamekeeper which ended in a bit of tragedy. Mm. But er it wa the house itself was so original How big is it? Er well forty rooms. That sounds fairly big. Well I would say physically it's roughly about a quarter of the size of Woollaton Hall. Really? So you know quarter to a third and er it's not got a lot of land with it and of course it's not mentioned a great deal in directories. The last big family to live name of was the original er well the last big family and it's now owned by er er Barbara Cartland's brother, chap named John Oh yes? and he lives in a chateaux in France. Anyway I won't say any more because I'll other people will eventually go but Hugh Berger is a gentleman who owns it or who lives in it at this time Mm. he is he's hop hoping to open it probably a week at Christmas but I would tell people if they do go to wrap up warm because the heating is as original except for a sort of Aga stove in the kitchen which they use as their sort of central point to live in. So worth going to see? It is if you if you want to go and see it and get a sort sense of history without a lot of shall we say school school book text type history, but just local history excellent I I I was there well the tour was erm an hour and three quarters and it sort of ran out of light more than ran of talk. Lovely and were there many going round? Er well there was a party in front of us er of about forty and well there was about twenty five in ours. Ooh so quite a number then? Well yes and they were it was you know the What impressed me also you know what it's like when you go to these places I can remember going not so long ago to Blenheim and er just about to examine something and this thundering voice coming down the hallway, Do not touch. yes Well this you can sit down in the seats, you can look at the you can touch the tables, there's not a lot of stuff but if if you got any sense of history you can get the feel of the place you know. So we'll look out for Carnfield Hall. Yes it as I say it's nothing grand but I just enjoyed this man's conversation, he was so good. Ee well he sounded good on the phone. Yes er his voice on the on the radio it sounded a bit like Leslie Phillips but he isn't like Leslie Phillips . Fred thanks a lot for ringing. Okay good bye then Dennis good bye . So keep a note on that one Carnfield Hall if you get a chance to see it it might be open again just before Christmas. Erm there's an all star variety show at Mapley Plain Social Club this Wednesday. It starts at eight o'clock the tickets are six quid on the door and appearing are the Ivy League Alf Berry and Heather Nixon, Night Ride organist and drummer and the compere is Peter Lawrie it'll be a good night I'll tell you that. All star variety show I've got just two tickets. Give us a ring Nottingham three four three four three four we'll send them by first class post and we'll put need your postcode. But please make sure you can use the tickets. This Wednesday all star variety show at the Mapley Plain Social Club in Nottingham and please make sure you can use the tickets. Dennis of Calverton Hello Dennis. Yes Dennis? Ah what we're looking for on behalf of the Calverton British Legion, is a bugler or trumpeter to blow the Last Post and reveille twice on armistice Sunday. What time? Er eleven o'clock and twelve o'clock. Where? Well in the hall where we hold our service and then in Is that at Calverton? Yeah. Calverton in Nottingham. Yep. All right I'll put y Oh by the way the tickets have gone those tickets have gone but you can get them on the door at the Mapley Plain Social Club this Wednesday in Nottingham and you can see the Ivy League Alf, Berry and Heather Nixon, Night Ride organist and drummer and the compere Peter Lawrie six quid the tickets are admission at eight o'clock this Wednesday an all star show at the Mapley Plain Social Club in Nottingham. Right back to you for a bugler? Yeah Can't you do it? years ago I could. You could? Er so you want a bugler for the Last Post. Bugler or trumpeter you know . Eleven o'clock and twelve o'clock at Calverton in Nottinghamshire this Sunday. No fourteenth of November Oh sorry Armistice Sunday. A week a week on Sunday? Yes. A week on Sunday. Do you have a big do? Yes there's two or three hundred go, scouts, guides, British Legion. Do you think it will always happen? Do you think it will always be that we have one? I hope so I hope so memories are memories and er Well if you go back in time if you go back if you go forward in time say twenty years you won't have anybody left from the last world war will you? This may be so but er with all the skirmishes we've got on at present and there's active there'll be ex-servicemen from them and they've these funny enough these young ones are coming along and joining the British Legion Mm. So they'll carry on I think. All right let's see if we can get you a bugler nobody's ringing at the moment but you want a bugler for a week on Sunday the fourteenth to blow reveille and the Last Post at eleven o'clock and twelve o'clock a week on Sunday at Calverton in Nottinghamshire. And we'll pay reasonable expenses as long as they don't come from Australia of course. Yeah all right pay reasonable expenses anybody calls we'll ring you Dennis. Right thank you very much. Thank you bye. Bye bye. Nottingham three four three four three four and we'll put you in touch with Dennis who lives at Calverton erm Nottinghamshire. Now Pru of Cranwell. Yes Pru. Hello Dennis. Hello. Erm I'm just calling because I hear you've written a book on Irish water spaniels. Oh yes I've just erm got a Have you not got the book? No. Goodness gracious me . How long's it been out? Ooh a year and a half perhaps . Oh Well we've just come back from America we've been in America for three years. Are you in the R is your husband in the R A F? Yes he is. What was he doing in America? We were at er the Air Force Academy, United States Air Force Academy in Colorado. Why? Just doing an exchange tour. Really what did you do there? He taught. He taught flying and erm military air power and military doctrine. Oh. Mm had a wonderful three years . I bet you did I bet you did. Coming back to wet and windy Lincolnshire. So whereabouts in America? Colorado. Oh Colorado. Mm Colorado Springs. Yeah it was wonderful absolutely wonderful. Well what's wonderful about it? Hey listen I tell you what I always ask do they have real big thick steaks there? Yes yes. Like we you never see anything like that in this country at all the steaks . Well not unless you want to pay an arm and a leg for them no. the steak out there is about the same price as mince here. Is it? Fillet steak is is just a regular meal over there. I mean you have to save up for it here don't you ? That's right you do that's right about eight pounds or eight pounds fifty a pound. I know yes. Well it's about erm about four dollars a pound over there which I would imagine is about nearly three pounds. Mm. Yeah wonderful wonderful food. So if you had the chance you'd have stayed there? Yes oh yes another about another six years probably but we had to come back to educate the kids. Oh I see how many children have you got? We've four girls between us it's a second marriage so we've erm How old? Two at seventeen and two at fifteen. So what did they think of America? Oh they loved it Dennis. Did they really? Yes they loved it. There was lots of skiing and lots lots of things to do. It was a wonderful place. Lovely people but I mean it's nice to be back. Yes. Lovely to be back. So it's got it's got Colorado's got the edge on us? Er well weatherwise it certainly has you don't go a day without seeing the sun shine, there's hardly any rain. What about the desert there? Yeah that's a bit boring. Is it? Yeah . Did you go? Hundreds of miles. We we tried to do as much as we could we drove from erm Colorado right the way round California up through Utah and stuff and so it is some parts of the desert are very boring. So how long were you in America? Three years. Who pays for that? Who pays for that? Well I think it's a joint er it's a joint thing it's an agreement we have with the United States Air Force, they send somebody over here to our Academy and then erm we send somebody over there. But how can your husband teach at the Academy at the Air Force when the Americans have got their own Air Force and we've got ours and they really are very different? Well I suppose it's it's just to try and find out different opinions on on different wars and things like that. What rank is he? He's a Squadron Leader. So over there what's the equivalent rank? Major. Is it? Mm yeah . Oh so and was it all sort of erm erm society do's that you went to and cocktails and things like Well they dusted us off and brought us out occasionally and that yes. Did they? Yeah yeah. Great social swirl. Yes it was nice we we did lots of entertaining and and things like that it was really good fun it was it was fun. And at the U S Air Force Academy have they got any aeroplanes? Yes they have they've got what er they call T forty ones little T forty one er Fisher Price type aeroplanes. Really? Yeah. But flying was wonderful I think er for him because it was lots of mountains and lots of lovely scenery and er and things like. You sound as though you miss it a bit? I do a little but you know I think when you live in the military you always leave a little bit of yourself somewhere you know at places you go and erm. Where else have you been? Well pers I haven't been anywhere else apart from Southampton and places like that, but erm this is our first overseas tour together since we got married. Where has he been before? Er Cyprus he was in Cyprus and erm then mainly Waddington on on Vulcans and things like that. So you really do see the world in the R A F then? Yes I think you do erm I think you see life as well. You see you meet lots of wonderful people lots of different people and it's always nice to People make the place don't they? Now my geography isn't too good Colorado how near to California which is a State Well I know a little bit about. Well we're erm about two, three, four days drive from California . Oh a long way then. Yeah we were four days drive from the Grand Canyon. Anyway you wanted to talk about dogs. Yes I did . How come you got you didn't have dogs in America did you? Well we took we took our bearded collie over to America and brought him back with us but he's thirteen. Did he go through quarantine? Yeah yeah. And do all right? Yes he did he was wonderful. Where did you He's still wonderful. Where did he quarantine? He quarantined in erm Gr Little Bytham in Grantham. Oh yes not too far away so did you go and see him often? No we didn't we sent him back in the February and we came back in er at the end of July so he was Oh I see ready to come out we were when we came back. How much is quarantine for six months? A lot of money. How much? I had I saved for three years. How much? Erm well we put two cats through as well so erm I think it all in all with the flights out and the flights back and the quarantine it must have been about three thousand pounds. Three thousand pounds. Mm. The dog is worth tuppence. Oh I wouldn't he might be to you but he's worth it to us . Yes of course of course of course. We love him he's thirteen years old so we we decided to get a a puppy because we thought we'd we wouldn't want to get one when he departs this world because you can never replace them. So a friend of ours her Newfoundland got out and had a little erm foray with an Irish Water Spaniel. An a Newfoundland? Yes. The head is going to be enormous. I know I think we've actually shot ourselves in the foot here because I've never known anything like it. I've never known a puppy like it. It runs off with ornaments, it digs holes so deep you can't even see the puppy in the hole all you can see is the earth coming out of the ground . Runs off and it sulks and she sulks when you tell her off she just sulks she won't look at you she won't talk to you. Now despite being Irish er and in fact maybe because of it it'll be a qui a very intelligent dog I should think . Will it? Oh yes I I mean the Irish Water Spaniel well well we got ours because I was told it was the most intelligent dog in the world. Mind you she didn't read the book. But there was a degree of intelligence and the Newfoundland of course is er spectacular dog, particularly in water I mean the Irish Water Spaniel's pretty good in water so as a Yes water dog you've got one second to none. Well she she jumps in her water dish inside she jumps both paws in it. Does she? She picks it up and she tried to get in the bath with some of my daughters the other day. And I but I've never she runs off with ashtrays and ornaments, remote control, pipe lighters. Oh you'd better read the book. Yes. You'd better read my book. Yes I think I should because a friend of mine said you'd written one I can't find a book actually I don't want a a proper book on breeding and all this sort of business I just want to know the character of these dogs Well is sounds like head of the game. Ours was called Woolly Jump and she what she used to do she used to carry things into her den into er into er part of er a sort of little lobby that was all hers Mm. And we used to find extraordinary objects in there, flower pots and half bottle half empty bottles of wine. Mm. Erm any cups that the other dogs had won rosettes. Mm. Er biscuits a lot potatoes she was very keen on carrying potatoes Oh Well Irish I suppose they like potatoes Well yeah of course of course Yes. And also erm a lot plumb stones because she used to raid the plumb tree. Oh gosh So I if you read the book the book is called Woolly Jumper you can get it your at Cramwell, you can get it at Grantham. Okay. You can get is at Grantham and if you read and you'll see all the things that your dog is likely to carry into her ba has she got a basket? Well she's got yes she got a she she sleeps in a in a special place but what she does is she's got a rug erm we've got a a rug in front of the fire here that we bought back from the States, and everything she finds that she likes she brings into the lounge and puts on the rug. We have a basket where we keep all her toys and chewy things and she empties that out and brings everything from where that is and puts them all on this rug and consequently this rug I think she she has adopted as hers. Ah well you know that's strange cos ours used to carry everything into her basket which and would No and sort of guarded and slept I don't I don't know how she slept because it must have been very uncomfortable. Yes. If you saw some of the things she had in there. I know. Well my Molly has just dug a hole so deep she's got into next door's garden fetch the Springer Spaniel from next door and brought it home to play with. Oh dear has it? Well ours used to bury bread in the garden. Oh my goodness. So they are diggers then? Oh they're diggers I think they're diggers . Oh oh dear. Is it a nice a nice tempered? She's beautiful she's absolutely lovely. Any nice with people and other dogs? Yes yes she's she she's great well she can't meet other dogs yet cos she's only nine week old. Oh I see. Erm. Nine weeks old? Mm. And she's doing all these things? Mm. Never grows out of it. She carries coffee cups off as well. Yeah. I used to know a Pekinese that used to er pinch everybody's flower pots everybo all over the neighbourhood. I found out about it because we had a call onto into the radio station that somebody was pinching flower pots in this Long Eaton area. And it turned out to be this Pekinese and when we went down there the lady was lovely and er we we interviewed her and we saw the Pekinese and we saw the Pekinese carry flower pots everywhere. Yeah. But some of them were as big as she was. Oh my goodness. So I mean So when anybody wanted to repot a plant they just went round to this lady then did they? That's right. For the plant pot back. She had flower pots everywhere there were flower pots. Flower pot men. Dogs can be very strange things but the Irish Water Spaniel and Newfoundland Cross gosh Yes yes. A big Lady I got her from she's just getting the webs in between her feet and I thought then You'll you'll never get her out of the water. Er well that doesn't matter I don't mind that quite so much cos our bearded collie loves water. I don't mind that and at least she'll have a shortish coat won't she? Do they moult Irish Water Spaniels? No they don't. No. But they get a bit of an oily coat. But of course you're not quite sure at nine and a half weeks which one she'll go to most whether it will be the Newfoundland No. or the Irish Water Spaniel . Well she's she's got a lovely Spaniely head. But it will be a big silky Yeah I know but it will be a big head when she's grown up. Yes she's yes she's asleep on the sofa now, I'm looking at her and her paws are very large. Yeah well there's an indication. Yes. How er er sorry she's going to be enormous. Is she? She'll weigh er er I bet she weighs a hundred weight she'll weigh a hundred weight. Oh gosh. It's a big dog the Newfoundland. I mean the Newfoundland It's a good job we've got a big car isn't it? The Newfoundland will will jump into the into the water and will tow a boat I've filmed one towing a boat. If ever you see Blue Peter Yeah. the er children's television show they they occasionally show a Newfoundland pulling a boat, well now that's the film that I made about ten years ago and this Newfoundland pulled in the boat . My goodness me. And you've got to be a big dog to pull in a boat. Yes very very muscular big chest . Well there you are. Well you wanted it. How well no it was free to a good home it was please take it. Oh dear what it? Because it was the last one left and we didn't want to get another bearded collie because it would when our old bearded collie eventually goes we didn't want it to remind us too much so we said we'd go completely different. Then this little lass turned up and so we said, Oh okay. You should have bought an American dog with you something like a Well Chesapeake Bay Retriever or Well that that's apparently what a Newfoundland and an Irish Water Yes. Spaniel are crossed with. Really? Yes. Chesapeake Bay Retriever . They are apparently called Chesapeake Bay Retrievers although Mm Bit bit your's will be a bit bigger than the average Chesapeake Bay Retrievers . How how big an Irish Water Spaniel then? Well Irish Water Spaniel it's a sort of medium medium to large size dog. Sort of smaller than a standard poodle? Yeah yeah about the size of a standard poodle. Mm. There may well be standard poodle in the Irish Water Spaniel but the Newfoundland I mean is a big heavy dog. Mm. But lovely most beautiful expression and everything. Really? Oh you're in for some fun. Er you get my book. Okay I It will give you a warning as to what's to come. Yes that's what I want. Right. Yes thank you for talking to me . You can get it from Grantham. Okay I'll go. All right. Okay thank you very much. Bye. Bye bye. Eighteen years ago and number one for Telly Savalas, If. We go to the news and after the news we'll meet Foster and Allen can I tell you collectors corner is full the feature we have at three thirty. Foster and Allen after our classical piece to the news with Frank orchestra and, I just called to say I love you. You're listening to afternoon special it's three o'clock. Radio Nottingham news with Rob Tomlinson. Britain's prison service is facing a crisis of overcrowding according to its Director General, Derek Lewis. Mr Lewis said the country was on the verge of having to use military camps, off loading prison and police cells to cope with the growing number of those being jailed. Mr Lewis warned judges and magistrates who have been jailing offenders at an unprecedented rate, that pushing the service too far and too fast would create what he called unacceptable risks. A man accu accused of raping a fellow student in college halls of residents has been acquitted at Norwich Crown Court. The offence had allegedly been committed at Norwich City College by twenty one year old Matthew Kidd from Burnley in Lancashire. Mr Kidd later refused to comment on calls for a change in the law to stop men being named in rape cases unless they're convicted. Stuart Flinders was in court. Matthew Kidd was accused of raping the eighteen year old student in his room at college. The court had heard evidence that the woman making the accusation had been nominated slut of the year at the college a reputation she claimed was undeserved. In his summing up Judge Hyam told the jury, you may come to the conclusion that the young woman was quite disturbed, craved affection and was quite able to tell untruths when it suited her. The jury took just thirty five minutes to find Mr Kidd not guilty. He left the court flanked by representatives from a national newspaper. Speaking through his solicitor he refused to join the debate over the identification of defendants in rape cases. A Nottingham body builder who subjected his girl friend to a campaign of sadistic mistreatment that included an attack with a hot iron had a three year jail sentence increased to four and a half years today. Three appeal court judges headed by the Lord Chief Justice Lord Taylor ruled that the original sentence on twenty six year old Roger Bartley from Radford was unduly lenient. Lord Taylor said the assaults on Donna King aged twenty six were not carried out in rage, they were coolly deliberate and inflicted by way of punishment. A Nottinghamshire mining equipment company which went into receivership in September has been sold to the three men who founded the firm two decades ago. The Dale Group which is based at New Houghton near Mansfield specializes in the design and installation of hydraulic mining systems. Andy Hitchcock reports. Dale's new owners, Sir David Guyler, Eric Dring, and Colin Speed who established the company in the early nineteen seventies it was taken over by the multinational Beaufort Group in nineteen eighty nine and by September this year the workforce had been cut from two hundred to just a hundred and ten. Fifty more jobs went when the receivers were called in. But Price Waterhouse say they are confident the original directors can run Dale at a profit. They believe that despite the pit closures there's still a healthy demand for the firm's hydraulic mining systems which include lifting machinery, roof supports and face cutting equipment. But the company's also diversifying and around thirty per cent of its current business involves designing large cylinders for cranes and fire engines. The trial has begun at Preston in Lancashire of two eleven year old boys accused of killing the toddler James Bulger. The boys are also charged with abduction and attempting another boy of two last February. Both have pleaded not guilty and their trial is expected to last up to four weeks. A radical plan to demolish the Commons' Chamber and rebuild it in the shape of a semicircle is being put forward by a Nottingham M P. Labour's Graham Allen argues that the present physical shape of the Commons is old fashioned and not suitable for the requirements of a modern democracy. He says that if the lobbies were knocked out MPs could have a semicircular debating chamber, electronic voting and a named desk each. Mr Allen claims that the new surroundings would encourage more serious debate. I believe we need to have a modern seating plan that allows and facilitates proper debate. Now it won't cure all the problems I'm pretending that it will, but if we were to have proper seats, proper microphones, electronic voting I believe that it would show symbolically that the House of Commons was prepared to modernize itself and start doing a proper job in our democracy rather than the farce and the theatre which frankly turns so many people off in modern Britain. The weather forecast now for Nottinghamshire. All parts will stay dry today and although they'll still be a good deal of cloud for much of the time some bright or perhaps sunny intervals are possible. The maximum temperature, nine degrees Celsius that's forty eight degrees Fahrenheit with a light to moderate easterly wind. B B C Radio Nottingham news it's five minutes past three. After our four o'clock news we'll have charity shop our chance to help others. If you're an organizer for a charity or if you know someone who needs help in some way or indeed if you need help in some way, call us on Nottingham three four three four three four soon as possible and we'll put you on charity shop that follows the four o'clock news here on afternoon special. That was Elgar's Pomp and Circumstance March number one that was and that brings you back to afternoon special on your favourite local radio station. And er two very special guests to meet who've been here often before and they're always very welcome. Er Foster and Allen are here and when I said that at the beginning of the programme it started a flurry of phone calls as to where they were. Well they're appearing at the Royal Concert Hall in Nottingham tonight in concert, and then a week on Friday, November the twelfth they're at the Ritz at Lincoln so welcome back. Thank you. How are you? Well I you you've got happy smiles on your face because Yeah. you've gone and done it haven't you? Number one number one in the video charts with the er new C D By Request. Yes great news. Are you are you chuffed? We are yeah we had video at number three about three or four years back, and we thought that was great and we never dreamed of going any further up the charts you know so it's great that this one's gone to number one. Yeah except look at the pair of you look at the pair of you singing these I mean look at these songs you're singing this is ridiculous. What are you what are what are you singing are you singing things like erm like er, Oh Lonesome Me, Beautiful Dreamer these Thanks. are old and tired songs a hundred years ago they were on the go. Aha. You can't sing them in nineteen ninety three and get away with it. Are there any seats left tonight? I'm afraid it's happening. It's marvellous that it should be that way and and good that it should be that way too because you know the air waves seem to be full of very noisy songs at the moment that that jar a lot of people. Mhm. Er I'm not sure er er I'm sure there's a place for them you know and someone wants them that's lovely but we're not hearing enough really of the Beautiful Dreamers wouldn't you agree? Well I think er yeah I definitely have to agree with you that we're not hearing enough of them but I suppose more and more now people are starting to to record you know a little bit more of the older stuff and I think what's happened on the pop scene that they've absolutely dried up as regards er creating new music you know and people are going into computerized music now and you know everything is played on the one machine and it's getting like a er I don't know it's as as if you don't really have to be a musician any more. But I think er the old standards are so good and so strong you know we still get the odd good one coming out but the old ones were so good and so strong that even re-recorded with er even with the more modern I suppose er bit of arrangement still the great sounds from the . As Donna Cassidy who looks after all our recordings in Dublin says once a hit always a hit you know. But what do you think has made this one so special the By Request C D and video and everything? Well probably because er you know we try and keep up er er certain standard every year and er you know it's very important doing a video that you have the right songs for it, you know to get a story book set up for each song and this one we felt when we had it finished was probably you know the best we've done so far and lucky enough we've been proved right. Are you comfortable with videos because we do hear a lot of artists who are not comfortable on video. Well we are we like doing the videos because er in the early days we had a lot of problems I suppose with ourselves and with the video people because they had planned ideas for the songs. You know we had recorded maybe about ten twelve maybe fifteen albums before we started doing videos. Then all of a sudden these strange people started coming out of record companies who were involved in the video end of it and deciding this is what we should do with that song and sort of you know these were songs that we had planned and recorded and and all of a sudden these people were changing them. So now what's happening is we're before we're doing an album we sit down and we pick out a lot of songs we decide right you know we need songs with good story books so the video is near enough planned with the recording of the song and it it's a lot easier for us and a lot more enjoyable enough a lot more enjoyable. That's right and and to er er sort of fogies of my age it does seem a bit strange but these days the video and the recording have got to go together haven't they? Oh absolutely yes very very important It's all to do with marketing. It's all to do with marketing but then again it's all to do with the reason for that is I suppose that's what people want you know if they see a video er er if they watch a video on television and they listen to the song it has to add up you know, it can't just be a a story book of one thing and a song about another thing you know. Presumably there's so many songs in your repertoire that you you've no need really to get a new one er you as artists might want to get a new one but you've got so many er evergreens I mean you could go on for ever with just the evergreens couldn't you ? Oh yeah yeah and they they keep er actually this album the reason it's called I keep saying album we keep going back to the days of vinyl er the reason its called By Request over the last four of five years Telstar sent out a sort of feelers on different sleeves asking people if there were any songs that they might like to hear Foster and Allen sing. And er you know about sixteen of the twenty two tracks on the C D are songs that people suggested. Mm. But what about new material cos as artists you'll want that as well won't you? Yeah we have a little bit of new material, we always get every year you'll get about you know eight or ten good new songs that people write and the one good thing about the people who write for us is that the songs sound like they're they're old songs which is ideal you know. So we try to get at least er three or four new songs in on every every . Are there songs when when you er are in concert as you are tonight, are there songs that you could not miss out? Oh yeah all the all the hits er like er Bunch of Time and and Maggie and Old Flames and after all these years, if didn't do those you'd be shot afterwards like but er what we do with the songs that that were like you know hit singles and that people really come to hear we make sure that you know that we do those and then we put in er you know what we think would be the favourite ones from albums and then we add in a sprinkling of the stuff from the new album so you know we give them a good cross-section for an hour and a half and then we have a good first half of the show as well we've got first half of the show as well and our band go on with him for forty minutes and er they perform as well a few soloists and er then Tony and myself come on and we do an hour and a half and we go right everything we do on stage we have recorded at some time, we don't do something that we haven't recorded. But don't you test out material on stage? Er no we don't not really because at this stage now as you said there's so many good standards out there you we would every year we would start off with about a hundred titles, work our way down to maybe fifty down to thirty and we'd end up recording about in fact this year we recorded thirty six songs and out of that we picked twenty two for the Mm. so there really isn't any need to to try them out you know. Wherever you go there are communities of Irish. Mhm. The Irish have settled into this country and there are communities of them all over do they go and see your concerts and if they do that must mean a great deal to them I should think? It er there'd probably be second or third generation at this stage you know. Most of the new people who'd be coming over in the last couple of years a lot of them wouldn't be coming out to our concerts yet because they would probably be into a more younger scene like the Mary Blacks, maybe or the Christian Moore or somebody like that you would be catering for a younger audience and the the second third generation would be coming out to the First to the Foster and Allens and the Daniel O'Donnells and the Brendan Shines you know. But it would mean a great deal Oh I'm sure it would mean an awful lot to them and the fact that you're so successful coming out of Ireland would mean a lot to them as well you know and er er it's nice to be able to er you know to do that for them if they've been over here living for you know some of them have never been back maybe and some of them have never seen Ireland because maybe their their parents or their grandparents came from there. But in in general most of our audience would be out and out British people you know. Do the troubles in Ireland ever affect the concerts or ever affect you? No thank God er nothing like that has ever affected er any of our shows any part of the world. We've worked all over Australia New Zealand you know America and Canada and hasn't. But presumably you you keep away from politics I mean Oh yeah Yeah a hundred per cent. Absolutely no interest in politics whatsoever you know all they'd done it's you know it's sad to see things the way they are but it seems to be that with the world over at the moment so. That's right. You know and maybe it's just that that there're so many people out there with nothing to do and they just it's just a a boredom situation maybe I don't know. When you if if you think about a country of song you might think of Wales, but anybody visiting Ireland will know that it's really Ireland's got to be a country of song because if you go there you've got to sing. I mean you can't go to a pub without singing. No that's true. Cos I found out that the hard way. You know I went and showed my dogs over there and afterwards we all went to the pub and we had one hell of a time and then I had to sing would you believe it? They let you in without singing but you won't be let out. That's right. Yeah you know. Absolutely right. And you can't leave. Why why does it have cos you think of Wales as the land of song why does it happen that if you go to Ireland you have got to sing? Well of course the biggest social thing in Ireland is the pub and it's not I mean the Irish have a a name for being very heavy drinkers but in general they're not heavy drinkers they just spend a lot of time in pubs. Er in most of them will er most people in Ireland will be in a pub at some stage of the day you know and it's no unusual thing to er we've got a recording studio in we live or I live rather and it's not unusual to walk out the studio at er lunch time with some people you'd been recording and go into the pub for a lunch and if you weren't very careful you could still be there that evening singing Mm. and playing you know. With people who'd be have nothing to do with the music business or just you know it's just the social er the social life you know. But you must be erm erm you've obviously got to be Guinness addicted. No No we're not. We're not drinkers either. Are you not? No not really. You don't drink Guinness? No. No. But a Guinness a day you know. Helps you Helps you on your way or something like that. Helps you for to get out of play. Oh does it? With me it would if I if I even had one drink going on stage, I'd be terrified. You know people say to us do you suffer from nerves going on stage and we don't, not even in the slightest. But if I had one drink of any description that's the one thing that would make me nervous because I'd be afraid that I'd forget this or forget the other, so we just don't have them at all you know. I would never go out like what Tony was saying you know he doesn't drink at all and like he'd be in a pub maybe seven days a week but I would take a drink now and again and I mightn't go into a pub once in a month maybe. But you're breaking the whole image of the Irish now. Well that's what I'm saying about the image of the drinking er I guarantee you could as you know as you say you could be in a pub all afternoon all evening all night with maybe twenty people having a music session and ten of them mightn't be drinking at all. That's true? I mean I've been in more pubs than I'd say longer than most people who drink a lot and er you know it's just be I think music and and song is the big addiction in Ireland not the drink but because er it it the chances of a music session starting in a pub is just you know the chances are that it probably will at some stage of the day. Well last time I was in er Dublin I er went from the pub straight to the airport and someone stuck a bottle of whiskey in my pocket just as I was going through customs, I didn't believe it could happen but it happened in Ireland. Oh yeah no problem and as Tony was saying music sessions they tend if the session is good to forget about closing time you know official closing time. But a few years ago we were at a session in a pub one night erm playing music and er there was about twenty of us and about two o'clock in the morning the police raided it and we all had our names taken and we were all up in court and we were all fined I think three pound for being er drinking after hours and Tony was drinking a cup of coffee. Oh were you? It's not many people you get fined three quid for drinking a cup of coffee No. after hours. At least I probably got the coffee for nothing. Yeah. So it goes on and on and on and presumably it will go on for ever. Well hopefully yeah. It will go on for another while anyway we hope. Yeah I mean as long as people want you. Oh Yeah. absolutely we have no no intention of stopping and er We'll be hear as long as they want us. But surely it it's happened that it's getting er and and I touch wood I don't know how superstitious you are but it's getting better and better and better for you each time because when you came here ooh some years ago since you first came into this studio er you were pretty popular then but it seems to increase all the time doesn't it? Yeah I think it it's it's been coming on a sort of er you know we we we tour here twice a year every year and we release an album every year at this time and a video, so it's for all the people who like that type of music they know it's going to be there and they come out to see us all the time you know and er as you say it goes on and on but lucky enough there is an awful lot of material for us to do and you know there shouldn't be any problem. It seems that the career is well managed. You know because we often talk to artists and we ask you know how it happened and and most of them say like topsy it just grew er that that there's no planned career but with you with the tours er set and the album set it it seems to be more of a controlled career with you two. Well it is it's it's planned pretty well as you know we we always take the summer off we never work during the summer because we do our recording and we make our video and then we're ready for the road and the video's released and there's promotion put into it so er if we go to Australia which we'll go on our next May and June you know it's a good time out there for selling product as well so we will have an album released before we get out there and and everything will be planned out. Is it strange going thousands of miles away to Australia and finding out that you're as known there as you are on this island? Er it wouldn't have been so bad you know because we when we set out first it was just you know to be successful at home and then we were successful over here and that was you know was the serious big surprise. After that you know surprises weren't as big and er it just worked out that you know the particular market that we're into was neglected here and then apparently it was neglected in Australia because we had Maggie you know a number one hit in Australia before we went out. So then it went on from there to Canada so it just worked out or appeared to work out that right around the world at that particular time ten or eleven years ago, that nobody was bothered and as you said the Beautiful Dreamers and this sort of stuff until we came along and er but other than that we would be surprised. After getting on Top of the Pops you know the kind of music we play, nothing would surprise us any more I don't think. Well what was it like being on Top of the Pops surrounded by well let's say er music of a more noisy nature? Strange. Different anyway. Yeah Bob Geldof and the Boom Town Rats they were on that and Were they? Dexy's Midnight Runners yeah so it was there were a few other weird names that I didn't that I'd never heard before or since. And the dance band they were actually number one that night and I don't think they've ever been heard since you know. Yeah. Oh were they I rather like those Yeah. They weren't too noisy were they? No and there was a gay fire eater, the lead singer was eating fire that night as well there was guys with these er fire hoses all round just in case. Yes yes. You've never had to eat fire to get No no no. Not yet. No. Not yet. But you were saying about er Australia and that I I think at that particular time more so than now whatever was happening in the British pop scene seemed to just happen all over the world you know. I think it might it might change a bit now it seems to be more American now especially in Australia all the music the current music in Australia that's being played seems to be coming in from America. What about America with you, the American scene with you? Er recordwise it never happened and does never seem to happen but we can go to America and work in the Irish centres and the Irish clubs and be an Irish band but er the way we could come over here and do a concert to people in general, it doesn't I think the radio situation in America for years was al always very if you were folk you played in folk programme, if you were country you'll play in the country prog whereas here in Britain there's one great thing with the radio system, people tend to play whatever you know if it's easy listening programme they play whatever is is nice and easy listening you know. But it's rather surprising that isn't it cos er a a lot of these er songs that you sing actually came from America. Well they did a lot of them are actually country songs that were like Old Flames and and even the Black Sheep was was an American song which we you know and yes you know if you send them back to America, Old Flames for instance is often back on the American those that played on the Irish programme. Yet they played the country version by Dolly Parton on the country programme you know. Are you happy to sing the songs that you sing? Oh yeah I I both of us would would be always recording and singing what we like ourselves you know. But has there ever been any effort to by management or by anyone at all to change you and say, Okay you've proved you can sing let's update it let's get a faster beat anybody ever said that to you? Erm not really you know maybe in an out of the way way they might but you know the type of musicians we are or whatever, you know we can do say I can do all the Irish stuff the up tempo rousing songs I can play Irish and Scottish dances and that kind of stuff, then Tony can do right across the board with easy listening stuff and country stuff and even one of the tracks on our new C D is er is er well what I would term a pop song. What the Dire Straights song? Yeah and er you know we can do a certain amount but I think if you went away from that you can go away from it a little bit but I think if you went too much away the people that you have and and our audience when we've got them you know, they tend to stay with us you know they don't change like the the youngsters and when we started off first you know our audience were mainly over forty five fifty plus really and now they're down to we're getting you know loads of of people in their twenties and in their teens and even down to kids like last night, five and six years old. So you know our audience are are getting bigger from what we're doing so it wouldn't make any sense to I also thinking about what we're going to do is we would end up sounding like a Foster and Allen song anyway you know not deliberately but I think you know by the time we'd have have by the time we do the way we'd be able to do it it would sound like Foster and Allen. But surely at the beginning when you two came along, the record industry must have thrown up their hands in horror and said, Well you know this this won't sell you won't sell any records this this is finished. Well I think we were very lucky at the start that were were just starting up in England and they were actually more into what we were doing than er to the extent that I think that maybe other record companies might have laughed at them and said they've no hope of surviving but I mean they had the Furies with er Sweet Sixteen and then they had er about six hit singles from Foster and Allen and about six or seven albums and then they went down to Daniel O'Donald which became an enormous success so I think when that happened then all record companies kind of said well maybe there is something here. So when we went to Stylus Records and Telstar you know they were more than than happy to have because they seemed but I think that at at the start had we been looking for somebody here to take us over probably it would never have happened. Was it slow at the beginning? Erm When you first got together? Not too bad we we got well we had been together near enough since we left school but you know we decided to have a go at it seriously in in seventy five and then we recorded an album and a single in say seventy seven, seventy eight. But then in seventy nine we had a hit at home with Bunch of Time and that as far as we were concerned was the end of the road you know to be successful in Ireland and then late eighty one, early eighty two you know they started playing Bunch of Time over here and it became a top twenty hit for us and that you know changed the whole thing round about and got us from say the pubs in Ireland into the concert circuit in England which we've been doing ever since. I it's a lovely record Bunch of Time isn't it? Wonderful song still goes down as good as ever and I have to say we still get the same buzz out of singing it every night. Do you really? I do yeah absolutely as as as the first few times we did it you know. So how do you try a new song because you said that you won't necessarily try and do a song out on stage. Mhm. So how do you try a new song to make sure that it blends that it's what you want to do that it's different how do what where do you try if you don't try on stage? Er well we would we would record them and and that would be it you know but we would have a fair idea when we'd be recording the album like that you know there's always be a place in a Foster and Allen programme for a Beautiful Dreamer so if you get a sound that's pretty close to that there'll always be a place for a an up tempo sound that that Mick would do so you have to sort of pick ones with a good story line and a good melody and again that you can work a good video round you know. Do you still work in Ireland? No we actually didn't work for about six years until this year we did a concert tour of Ireland just before we came over here. How did that go? It was great and probably would have been with the exception of the video going to number one, it probably would be the highlight of our career cos we'd been out of hadn't been working in Ireland for six years and we were back in and did a sell out concert tour and I think that was really good. But before that before the sell out concert tour in Ireland, did you ever think I wonder what they'll think of us back home I wonder if we'll still do it? We we did we were lucky enough to be in the position that we were working out of Ireland we were making a living without having to work in Ireland. We still did television shows there and did all our recording there and made all our videos. But er even if it didn't work we well it wouldn't be the end of the line financially for us but at the end of the day I think you know we've always wanted to know we could go back and do that you know. And you've proven that that you can do that . I think that's worked yeah. That's lovely. All right tonight then Foster and Allen at the Royal Concert Hall in Consett and we think you can get some tickets This morning yeah. This morning it went to number one this is tremendous news and from it we're going to have A Hundred Children. Now this has been selected to help Children in Need. Yeah this is another little erm I suppose an added bonus as well to Foster and Allen. We when we got the song first and recorded we we were talking one day and we were just saying it would be an ideal song for Children in Need you know so we decided that we'd er donate all the proceeds from this track on the video and album and the concert in Stockport, it's tomorrow night isn't it? Aye tomorrow night . All the proceeds from that is going to Children in Need as well. That's marvellous. Thank you very much indeed Tony and Mick Foster and Allen Mick and Tony Foster and Allen. And here's the record A Hundred Children don't forget the er the C D By Request it's it's just out and it got to number one this morning in the video charts. Bless you both of you. Thank you. Thank you very much. One Hundred Children sung there by Foster and Allen er by Mick and Tony our guests this afternoon and that's from the By Request C D and the By Request video went number one this morning. So we were the first to have them after they get number one. Two lovely lads I'll tell you and that concert tonight going to be er absolute corker it's at the Royal Concert Hall tonight in Nottingham. And on November the twelfth that's a week on Friday they're at the Ritz at Lincoln in Consett. Right let's have collector's corner if you can help anyone on collector's corner call please Nottingham three four three four three four. You have to dial the code O six O two if you're ringing from outside the Nottingham area and if you ring us please have pen and paper with you cos we'll give you a number to ring back. So collector's corner, Brian Simpson of Hinckley on first what it is you want? Hello I'm after a zither. A zither? There you are and I know what you're going to say We had one the other day. Yeah Thursday. But you're joking you know how many calls we took for it? No. Over a hundred and twenty. Well I rather gathered that because erm erm I I actually run a German band a Bavarian band Yes. And I've been after a zither for a long long time How much are they? Some of them more than that one was advertised for. But they said a hundred quid but it was about eighteen ninety wasn't it? I don't know I didn't get er I didn't get that far. Well yes I mean it's it's got to be worth a hundred quid or more . amazed I actually did erm what happened erm I was happened to be upstairs and my wife shouted quick quick there's a zither, so I zoomed down here and the lady was still talking to you and a dialled well consequently I didn't get through for quite some time but I did eventually, erm your lady on the reception said well it's gone now she said but I will give the lady's telephone number and I spoke to the lady and told her the position and she says well if it's not collected by so time I'll g ring you back and I said well I've been after one for a long long time she said well I can't understand it cos I've been advertising it. So I said well not in my area you haven't. Mm. But I mean it was a er it I'm sure it was an eighteen nineties zither . I don't know I don't know it it sounded nice a few points she did on it and er Really? I can't play one personally but I do have a lady in my band who's who can, very very good accordion player who assures me she can play a zither as well you see. But how do you learn a zither I mean nobody gives zither lessons do they? I don't think anybody had ever heard of one until we had Shirley turn up. Well Anton Carrus. Oh well Anton Carrus yeah in the Third Man . In the Third Man. Yeah. Anyway let's try and get you a zither you'll pay and collect? Yes yes certainly. All right Brian. Right see you bye. Hang on a minute your Bavarian band. Oh yes yeah. Where are you appearing at this week? Erm Royal Air Force Wittering. Royal Air Force Wittering. Aha yes. How long's your er concert go on for? We shall be there until about midnight I would say. From eight o'clock. Mm around that time. Four hours of it. That's right. We we do three spots. How much lager do you devour in a Well as daft as it seems Dennis as you probably know in this sort of game you're on the roads very late at night and when you're on the roads very late at night, you get a lot of bored policemen Yeah. and consequently we do get stopped and quite frankly without giving too many trade secrets away Ok can I draw to some sorry. I take it as a last question, comment. Angela I'd like, I'd just like to ask if we could have a meeting about the future of the gallery. Yes. And I'd like art teacher's in all the school's all around, not just Harlow but Hoddesdon Hertford all around Epping to be asked I'd like artists to be asked from all around erm Essex has a directory of artists Eastern Arts has a directory of artists, I think you could probably find quite a lot of people . I don't think we're very well represented here tonight and I think there's a a lot of not well used a terrible waste of space. And we need to say that you know I don't think that it's criminal to have a gallery but it's criminal to waste the space some of the time. Yeah, we'll look at that yeah that's sort of. Can I just say before you close, is a you out a hand out before everybody was here can some more of those be run off with a questionnaire Perhaps I should mention now I mean I I I'm not fill in questionnaire's but it would it would be helpful if you actually did erm fill in that before you actually leave this evening and leave it on the on the table on the way out if that's possible I think that, that information which you put on them would be useful. Can I just say a conclusion I'm not sure how you feel how the meeting's gone this evening I think it's been very positive meeting at least people have actually said what there concerns are and actually raised eh, some, some of the issues. I also give a guarantee that it isn't just a one off situation,meeting we all go away and forget about what we've said I can assure you that won't happen minutes have been taken and and what's been said this evening that will be conveyed to the management committee meeting the board meeting and I think we need to look very clearly at a very closely what's been said and respond to what's been said and I think that it's been suggested also raised this evening about having a further meeting to report back and say erm this has been said this is our response. I think that that will happen also. I hope you've found the meeting this evening positive, I'm sure you haven't heard perhaps if the people found after the this evening and the guy up there reckons we ought to retire, well I don't think we will retire but I think we will be responding to the things that you raised this evening I happen to think the Harlow theatre I'm not sure how you measure success, erm I think we measure it's success in the fact that people actually do use the building, people do come to see the shows. I am aware of the difficult times that other theatre companies who actually face in this moment in time and I am very grateful when I and I've always been grateful to the Harlow Council for the funding of the Council has given to the theatre, has given to the theatre over the years. It's interesting that erm many been said, many of the other local authorities in the area certainly don't produce or put on as what Harlow Council does, they certainly don't from the arts like Harlow Council does and I think we have all got a gratitude to the Council even in difficult times the money spends on the arts. The the Council looking at the whole process of how it spends it money what it does, I think the theatre the start of this evening we were looking quite close about what we do and how we do it what we don't do and what we should do and I think from what's been said this evening will be re look closely the questions you've raised things that you've raised we'll report it back to you in the hope of this meeting that we'll actually moved forward because I think it's in everybody interest everybody's interest if the playhouse closes. The playhouse in the Harlow is about the people in Harlow and about the people that come in from outside of Harlow I'm very conscious that we do serve a very wide community and I am pleased that people with other sounds come and support the theatre has been rightly said if they didn't come in to Harlow to support the theatre we would have major problems. So could I just in conclusion say please fill in your short questionnaire thank you for your attendance and I can assure you as Chairman of the trust what you said and the question's you've raised this evening will be looked at in great detail and we will be reporting back to you in the near future about the proposals that we wish to make. Thank you. Now we're not talking about diets here, we're talking about eating disorders. What they are, how they can affect people, and why? And perhaps, what we can do about them? All of us, or perhaps, not all of us, but most of us do worry about our food, we eat too much, we eat too little, we eat the wrong thing! I'd like to try and define what the difference between and eating disorder and simply wanting to to to be a different shape or a different size is? But, perhaps you could first start by answering this question, do you ever worry about what you eat? Button one for yes, and button two for no. And in this hundred my goodness! Eighty six people said yes, fourteen no. Those eighty six, why did you say yes when yo when I er ho how did you interpret what I said about worrying? Yes? Yes? I was a previous anorexia sufferer Mm. I didn't have a view of what my body should be like I, I always thought I was fat regardless of what weight Yep. I was and it's never gone away even though I've put my weight back on. Yes? I think there's another point around that about erm, the image that's portrayed by the media and and to be successful in your career you must be a slim, well made up woman erm, and thinness equates with success and an ability to get on in life. It's also true that we make moral and ethical judgements about women in particular who are overweight even Mm. by a small amount. And studies have shown that women and men tend to judge a women as being less intelligent and less competent and certainly, obviously, less attractive if she is overweight. Mhm. Yes? Er I wonder if there is in fact er a a view that women expect men to have of them that's th the desirable woman? And I just happen to have with me pain painted in the turn of the century, er a Renoir Ah yes! A very famous one! in which all the women are well padded, buxom and all enjoying food and drink! Now, if you compare with, with today Aha. when, when the does, when the Twiggys came in and and the, the the angular woman er, of which I am not I wonder if that was the male view or what is the wo , the view that women have of themselves? I think women who are overweight have to work an awful lot harder to prove that they're just as good Mhm. as somebody. And, generally speaking do twice as much work, put in twice as much effort and just to prove they're as good! Not better, or anything else, just as good so that I'm, all these things that fat doesn't matter! And we're constantly trying to convince ourselves that fat doesn't matter! Right, now what has this got to do with eating disorders? I mean, where do eating disorders come from? Do they come from the kind of perceptions that we're hearing or is, is it something different? Yes? I think eating disorders are very much, weight is a symptom Mm. it's not the fact. Eating disorders tend to come from childhood, or problems, or ways people have approached food in the past and the pressure is on women to be slim to fit into these categories are er, just more pressures that make it very difficult for somebody who has an eating disorder to sort the problem all these pressures just make it more difficult. It's, they are not actually responsible for it, I don't think, but something that has happened that, that has caused somebody to see food in a different manner. Would somebody with expertise here like to define for the rest of us what what, what differentiates somebody with a ,a , an eating disorder, er from someone who's er a chronic dieter or a chronic worrier or no not a chronic dieter at all, but someone who just thinks about it a lot? When it takes over your life, you know, anything that happens to you is related back to food whether it's you know, connected or not, that is when it becomes an eating problem. Instead of you saying, oh perhaps something's gone wrong and trying working it out, it's all reflected back yourself with food. Right, are you ta , are you talking from er er personal experience or people you know? I'm a sufferer. A sufferer of? Anorexia. Now, anorexia is much written and talked about, but perhaps not accurately, how would you define anorexia? I would say that the criteria that's that's sent out at the moment is is far too strict for the lot, a lot of women and at the moment you're expected to be skeletal, whereas th , you can very well be thirteen stone and anorexic it's, it depends on your attitude towards food. We have to find criteria for anorexia Mhm. nervosa which essentially means, er loss of body weight or fifteen percent your normal preoccupation with weight, and loss of your periods for three months and a morbid fear of gaining weight. And, why, you may argue that those criteria are too strict, those are criteria that are used in a medical sense. Well perhaps while we're doing it all, we're talking about anorexia, we should talk about the er, the associated erm, disorder, bulimia, which is only recently become something that people are generally aware of. Wo wo would you like to offer er, a definition of of of bulimia as well? Well bulimia nervosa is a disorder of binging. Er, these binges take places regularly and they may amount to between three to five thousand calories in one binge. What does that mean, three to five thousand calories? I mean er A normal day you might eat two, three and a half thousand calories so within one short period of eating you would take in maybe double that. Er, associated with that are certain behaviours, typically vomiting, laxative abuse, erm, use of diuretics which are water tablets or excessive exercising. Again, there are very many over-valued ideas about weight and what that means to the individual and a pre-occupation with weight. I believe that the root cause of anorexia and people who binge and in fact, they are failed anorexics really! There's, there's,th the the aim is the same, the aim is not to not to gain weight er and the control has been lost when th when it's necessary to binge. But, I believe that the root cause of ano , is is a is a deep-seated unhappiness in the individual. Mhm. Erm, I would agree that erm, what you saying about the anorexic thing and the fact that's it's a sort of deep-seated unhappiness, but I think that's far too general. You know, I think that erm, this idea of anorexics being, erm sorry, bulimics being failed anorexics is, a wee bit kind of unfair! Erm, I think the sort of emotional erm sort of like characteristics of both eating disorders are very, very similar. But I think the reasons why bulimics need to binge, erm is completely different from what than, erm an emotion that an anorexic could be suffering from. It's er more to do with the feeling of, it's like filling gaps erm Yep. erm, emotional gaps , boredom,go you know, just a whole sort of like range of various emotions. Erm, where possibly like the, the anorexic, well I don't know cos I'm not speaking from an anorexic point of view, but I think the, the point we're saying, emotions are there but they're dealt with in a, a different way, you know they perhaps starve themselves erm, to sort of like, erm you know ge , get across these emotions, to deal with these emotions. Mhm. Yes? And one of the differences that anorexia can become much more visible and identifiable, whereas those of us who have experienced bulimia, which I had for thirteen years, can be extremely secret and well disguised because we normally don't change from normal body weight. What's the difference between bulimia and compulsive eating? Is there a difference. Well, in the definition that we heard, it tends to be associated with, with trying to rid your body of the food that you've consumed during a binge. Compulsive eating normally doesn't go to that extent. How did you stop bu bu bulimia, I mean it was In the end it was the thirteen years of binging I mean Yeah. wha what effect does that have on you? Erm, it it, it makes it very, very difficult to imagine how you'll recover erm, but in the end it's a personal decision to, to try to achieve self respect, to care for yourself better, to adopt good habits of nutrition and exercise, not dieting, cos diets are the biggest con trick of all and certainly, to rid your life of people who don't respect and accept you the way you are. Can you identify why you began doing it? I mean, how old were you when you started er binging? Fifteen. Yes. Fifteen? I was certainly to do with feeling that I would have to be a little bit slimmer, that I would have to be acceptable to other people, that I would have to change my shape and at the same time, I could not resist consuming large amounts of food. Now, fifteen seems terribly young That's right. for a girl to start, to start worrying about that kind of thing! Is is that a societal pressure? I mean is it a ah,th wi , is there any history of it in the family an and, what did your family, did you family know? Families don't generally know. And it, it wasn't until many years later that I told anyone at all that's, that's the thing I was saying about bulimia, it's very secret. And in the end, did you, I mean wha , did you get the support of of professionals or or Yes. Erm, but in the end th o only one had any impact and in general,see seeing a female professional was, I have to say, a lot more helpful than seeing male professionals. Mm. Yes? Er, my experience is slightly different when erm when I had been trying to sort of recover, I didn't, I didn't feel as if I've get any help from professionals that I approached. And in fact, I get an awful lot of support from friends erm, not family because my family aren't, weren't aware of it, erm but I mean, really it came from fre , really close friends that I could sit down and talk to and that could understand me and accept me, just like what the girl said as well. Mm mm. Yes? I think my G P actually sent me further down hill into anorexia after I'd lost about, about when I was seven stone I went to see her, I'd never seen her before and she said well you look perfectly acc , sociably acceptable to me so I went on to lose two more stone before going back to see her and was admitted to hospital as a medical emergency! And, did continue to get professional help after that, but I think she was actually one of the factors that sent me further down, by telling me I looked well! What age were you then? Twenty. Yeah. And can you identify why yo wa was, are yo are you now over it? Are you Yeah I would class myself as a recovered anorexic, but as recovered as I'll ever be! I don't think I'll ever totally get over it. I've still got a very distorted body image that I have to live with. I think I'm fat! The reality of anorexia for you was what, just not eating at all? Cutting down on food, I was University missing whole meals, telling people I was training, I'm a P E teacher so sport and the perfect body was very much up front, so the more weight I lost the better I was told I looked until it became totally out of control and I was eating an apple and black coffee a day and then vomiting so that I had nothing in me. Erm my metabolism was out the window. Now, as a P E teacher you're working what, boys and girls? Yes. Do you see ah,th the pe , the boys and girls or the, the young people that you're working with erm, having the same veering towards the same kind of thing, I mean, do you see pressures on on girls, towards achieving that perfect body in the way that you felt it yourself at one time. I see boys calling the girls fat and it makes my hair stand on end! Erm it goes on continually and these poor girls are oh you're fat! You've got a great big bottom! And they're not, they don't have, they're normal. I wonder what you think of what you're hearing? Yes? I just wondered how much actual help professionals are? I mean, is is there really enough help given? I mean, we talk about eating disorders Yeah. but do they really actually dig into the the real reasons for the eating disorders or they just try and get you back onto a stable diet? Yes? I think what put me off in th and certainly em embedded was some of the comments as around control of our lives. Mhm. And maybe hope that we as, as people as women need to do is regain control of our lives so they, they belong to us, so it doesn't matter if if boys say we've got fat bottoms or not,yo you say my bottom's alright an and you live with that. I'd be interested to know the lady who mentioned that, er she got help from friends, what sort of help did she get from her friends? I mean, how can you help someone with a a problem like this? How best can you help someone with a problem like this? It was really, really difficult! Erm, she started really by, well th well there is two of them involved at the time, but they started by reading a book on the subject and really just talking to me about it certainly, because I mean they really didn't understand, you know because food to them is just food, you know it was just some meal they had to eat because they were hungry and they couldn't understand why I had got this whole thing completely distorted. Erm there was a, I mean there was a lot of friction, I mean, I mean I'm really lucky to have the strength of a friendship that I did because you know, if, I wouldn't have got, you know where I am, sort of without it, I think. Aye, so you related to that more than you would rela , related to a professional, a doctor or someone Erm, when I first approached trying to help you? doctors they started putting me on anti-depressants, tranquilizers, sleeping pills erm, and you know, they were, their whole manner was just absolutely terrible! I mean, I felt that, it made me worse as well, by going to them and I decided that I would never go back to them again, you know. That's quite interesting! Is it a , yes there? Can I just sort of say I'm I'm somebody working on a team er, that deals with eating disorders. I think things have changed quite dramatically in the last few years certainly, we admit very few people and we see them mostly as an outpatient. I think it actually depends where you go to to seek help and who your first erm person that you go to Mhm. I mean there is a, I don't know if anybody saw there was a a programme on, it was actually B B C, erm, this week, it was about somebody who felt that she was very overweight and actually had her stomach stapled! And I mean, I find that really horrendous! I think your G P is maybe one of the first places to go but the trouble, I think, with people with eating problems is it's very hard to explain what the problem is. Mhm. And I think that's what a lot of problem with condemned by the G P is is they're not able to articulate the unhappiness that's coming from the eating disorder, so they're told to go away and put on a couple of pounds and because they haven't expressed that feeling the G P can't or isn't thinking enough to try and and poke into it a little bit more. So what would be better? I think, one of the most important things is finding a trusting friend or a member of family so that you can then try express some of the feelings so that you're in a better position erm, to try and explain the problem. One of the great difficulties is that many young people find it extremely difficult to admit that they have a problem. And in fact, even with as many professionals as one would wish it's often extremely difficult to actually engage people in treatment erm, and the whole process of getting people into treatment or into health can be very difficult, both for the young person and for the therapist or helper involved. I don't want to give the impression that professionals are unhelpful at all. I mean Carole said earlier, it's a question of eventually making your mind up that you want to do something about it, but then professionals are maybe there to assist. What you've described must be something that erm that that families of people who are suffering from eating disorders must feel very much, that there's nothing that they can do to, to to help. Families feel very rejected by professionals erm, in my research I've found that er, the families of younger sufferers tend to be involved in treatment but they feel very much that they're under the microscope, that they disapprove, that they're seen as being pathological families. With older sufferers, erm, usually families are excluded from treatment, they're kept out, they're told that they're daughter erm must be seen on her own and they feel very helpless and very unloved and unsupported by by the professionals. Mm. Erm, in fact, I've found that the families are no different from any other families, there's no typical anorexic family. I think erm yo e you know you asked about the support and I think having identified that there was a gap in the support in Mhm. times of I mean, I actually think it's a an awful lot of ask of a friendship, or of a family situation and also, indeed, if you I mean I think sometimes they can be very supportive but th the true understanding may not be there and erm I think that's what led me to start up a self- help group in Edinburgh erm which is, has been erm running for the last two years now. And, I think that level of real understanding that you do get from fellow sufferers, and indeed, it's a su , it's a support for erm families as well who are able to come along and, and share that kind of support. Mhm. After my own experiences I wo I wouldn't advice someone not to go to their G P, but firstly, I would advice them to contact the Eating Disorders Association er, because they are very helpful and they're more supportive than any G P I've ever come across. Okay. Yes? You mentioned er, earlier about yo , the fact that you were surprised that it was fifteen year olds, and that was quite young Yeah. and yet, in fact, that's the time when you're most vulnerable yo , it's time of puberty, your Mhm. interested in fashion, your interested in the opposite sex and th the ages between fifteen and eighteen teenagers ar , tend to be faddy, if it's not er, their body shape th th , it's vegetari , vegetarianism. I think there's a third fact that you touched on earlier that I think it's just worth mentioning and that is that we know it's also a genetic pre-disposition to anorexia nervosa, in other words, we know that in certain families it is a disorder that will run from one generation to another. Na , yes? Erm, I'd consider myself to have an eating disorder but I don't have anorexia or bulimia. And er, I first started feeling I was overweight when I fourteen and I was, I was twelve stone and I went to the doctor and got black capsules to take which had me as high as a kite for a long time! And then there were the the dose was reduced and then I had to come off them altogether and after twenty nine years of dieting unsuccessfully I gave up dieting and I haven't put on any weight since I gave up dieting! And, and what sto , why did you stop? Erm, a friend started a a self-help group which I went to. And I realised, well I had realised for a long time that dieting wasn't the answer for me. And erm Oh so, over twenty nine years you're saying that food was controlling your life, in a way? Oh yes! Very much so! I mean that was , that was the dominant thing, was wha what you I could have told you every single item of food I had in the cupboard every, down to the last bean! And now I don't know. I have sweets lying on the counter, I don't have to take them if I don't want to. I'm not controlled by food any more, and I don't feel guilty any more. I think the lady who said earlier when you go to your G P you can't express yourself Mm. I went to my G P, having avoided her for fifteen years, having getting the old story every time you went well you must go on a diet! I had been on diets and to put it in context, over twenty years I've lost a hundred and twenty stone! Which if you break it down is only about a pound and three quarters a week and I think a lot of people are like that. But, when you look at it in that context it becomes very much erm, part of your life, and it takes an awful lot to break that habit and there's no help. Up there. I think it's very easy to fall into the trap of feeling guilty. Mm. Erm, I went on a diet last year, to one of these clubs and, within record time got to the weight I was supposed to be, calorie counting and then I had to come off and I found for weeks after feelings of terrible guilt if I ate Mm. a chocolate biscuit! I was mentally calorie counting every time, it took me ages to get back to a sort of normal life. Can you identify th that the point at which worrying about food, we've all agreed we shouldn't be, but there it is we do, er pitches you into eating disorder and er I know ca , is is there preventive action to be taken apart from changing society completely? Yes? I think it's when you become inappropriately absorbed around the areas of food I think, too, because I work with teenagers Mm. that early intervention is the best way of coping with it, and certainly it demands that parents and friends and teachers, and people concerned are aware of any change which is sustained over a period because by early intervention then you're probably coping with the problem rather than the eating disorder, because the problem is there before the eating disorder. Erm, can intervention, as you call it, be effective do you think? Very! If it's early, before the pattern's really entrenched. Yes? I think it's wrong to underestimate erm i i it's particularly initially, how, how positively reinforced it can, it can be around you erm, just this the idea of losing weight and that er you know, people will be wha , for whatever reasons are, either envious or they want to know how you can do it, they want to know, and particularly if it's linked with exercise then it's all very good things to do and you know, the media's telling you and a , everyone's telling that this healthy lifestyle that actually then goes out of control through being so controlled erm e e , there's a, well there's a thin line between it, being a very positive experience, and you're suddenly buying smaller jeans and erm you know, it's just everything is is feeding, if that's the right word, this idea that it, that that it's tremendous to be Mm. losing weight, to realising that you can't do anything about it. I think the advice I would give any mother of an anorexic is to tell them how awful they look! I wish I'd been told early on what I looked like and what I was doing to my body. Nobody wanted to be cruel enough to hurt me because they thought I was so vulnerable at that time and I really wish I'd been told that I looked disgusting! But at another level, if we could show love, respect and acceptance for each other in the magnificent diversity that that we show as women, instead of patronising and attacking each other on the basis of our body shapes, that would be a great step forward! Hooray! Yes? I'd like, I'd just say that I the the are professionals now that do know more about eating disorders and I do think there are clinics being set up. Erm, we do know quite a lot about erm, why it is that when you diet you start to think about food all the time, and why it is that certain things happen, and I think that there's more and more information and knowledge being gathered and yes, the na , the desire to change has to come from the individual but perhaps, having clinics available where people can go when they're ready to change or where they can get help. I think very often you do need professional help and it isn't possible to do it with family and friends because of the interaction that actually makes it worse. So there's a practical suggestion and I, I like, I like Carole's philosophical suggestion that we could start celebrating the diversity of human kind. I mean, that's the kind of thing one often hears on this programme, is it wishful thinking or d'you think we could actually achieve it? Oh! Wahey! Yes? I think the media have an awful lot to answer for! Yeah. I run one of the self-help groups that one of the ladies mentioned and we looked at an outsize catalogue recently and it went up to size twenty six and in some cases up to a size thirty and the ladies who modelled the clothes were no bigger than a twelve, possibly a fourteen, but a very shapely fourteen! Mm. Mm. So the media, even when anything you do depends on your size,yo your image is all for a woman, your brain or your ability really comes way down the line! You have to look good first before anyone listens to your other abilities! But looking big and good are not incompatible are they? I was just gonna say, I I think we should possibly stop blaming the media or whatever actually happens and perhaps echo what the the lady earlier said, I think that it's in our hands, we're the women that could make this happen ! Yes? Well I I was just si Oh sorry! I'm sorry! One at a time!! I was just sitting here wondering why men don't have this image problem? Because there are an awful lot of overweight men and I don't see any problem with them at all! They don't seem to have any problems between each other either! I'm quite concerned that my four year old daughter is after a Sindy doll and wondering whether perhaps Sindy dolls shouldn't be produced in erm such diverse figures as real life? Well there's an Are we, are we providing an interesting idea! our future generation with women with an ideological figure such as Sindy. A lot of ideas and certainly worth talking about it. It's something I hope we'll talk about again. I hope you've learnt something and I know that I have! Thanks very much for joining us. Erm a farmer bought a new tractor yesterday A farmer bought a new tractor yesterday, good, right can you read the next four out, er Trevor Bother, winner, winter,dr driver That's okay The river was very cold The river was very cold, right, can you do the next one four Charlie Never, number The blazer was very warm The blazer was very warm, right, yeah, erm Erm, I have a, a warm jersey I have a warm jersey, good Remember, Jack, helicopter, er the helicopter was very big The helicopter was very big, good, so you've all had a chance to use one set. Can we have a look at the ones underneath, in the orange block and will you do the first one Heather? The bomber opens the gates to attract the driver Good and the next one, Charlie When spinning its web a spider makes a clever pattern Good My brother does a paper round and delivers a hundred newspapers every morning Good A crossing the road always remembers stop and Go on Ca camels in, in a desert Yes without water, right, Edward In the modern Hold on travelled by helicopter Excellent so you've already got percentages sorted out there, can we just look at the next block of words, and hello, hello, right, no, yeah well I, yes I I think it all went great, unfortunately erm, so I really can't really consider on, on that. But that details of that actually has a but I don't think it's a total story okay so I'll, I'll put it all down on, on paper and then we'll take it from there, okay, thanks, bye . Right, sorry about that, so shall we start this time with Charlie, first four Charlie, what's it say? What's A R E saying there? There Yes, what sort of there is that? It's erm, nothing There, nothing there are There are yes, you've got nothing on like your, there, your body is there, you're running around right You can't bear it any longer You can't bear it any longer, does that act as the same? Yes No No No it doesn't does it, it's spelt in a different way isn't it? What's that bear it any longer That's right B E A R that's right Same as the animal it's also the animal so that you're actually left with three er words that sound the same, two of which are spelt differently and the third which is the name of an animal, okay. They did, do then, put a pencil to there, mm you've already done it haven't it There was lots of bare people on the beach Oh dear me, there are lots of bare people on the beach, right, what about fare, what are you going to do about that? What sort of fare is that? Er for hair No this is fare Oh, oh yeah How do you spell , how do you spell fair for fair haired? F A I R F A I R yes and this one is F A R E no that's spelt the other way F A I R anyone help him? F A R E what does it mean? Is it, it was a fair idea No that's the same as erm was it like erm you gave me a fair amount of no, that's the same thing, you're going on a journey no oh you are slow, come on you're going on a journey, not in a car Fairly long time Ah, no journey Journey, we're going to travel, right no, you're getting warm, no, no a fare ticket A fare ticket, yes a ticket. What is the fare? How much does it cost to get there? And that's how you spell fare for that F A R E, alright, okay? Yes The next one then er hare, now what sort of hare is that? Rabbit Yes, it's, it is the same sort of family as a rabbit a hare. How do you spell the other sort of hare? H A I R H A I R and that is the hair that's on your head, I've got long hair, dark hair. Now what about, what's the next word? Scare Scare Scare, now put that in a sentence Erm, What sort of word is scare? Erm a kind of, when you boo somebody it's scare Yes so it's a scare, so what kind of word is it? Come on get it right Is it, er, can I put it in a sentence? No, would you tell me what sort of word it is remembering what we did at the beginning of the week yeah, but that's the, what it means, I want to know what kind of a word it is Yes I know it's spelt Is it a verb? No it's not a verb, come on, what is it A noun Yes it's a noun, it's a name of something isn't it? Because we were doing that at the beginning of the week, a scare, you could actually get right, so can you put it back into, into a sentence again then Shirley? You've got a scare on, I saw Dracula We've got a scare on, we saw Dracula, yes, that was it. Right what's the next word? Share Share, what does share mean? You share out You share out, can you put that in a sentence? I like to share out my sweets Oh that's lovely, I like to share out my sweets digging Digging, they're going onto double Gs now, why would it be double G? One put dig and then and then -ing Yes, but there is a rule isn't there Oh yeah Ah yes, Trevor because, because, is it cos of erm, if you put D no, not quite, you're nearly right, come on Is it because the I sounds like yes you would actually get, a magic E right, or a magic I making that vowel right say its long name, so it would be quite difficult to say dig giding Right, lets try the next one, what's the next one? er bigger bigger that's for the same reason, there you've got an E, and so because you've got the E we can double the G to make the I go on, go on say short for It would be beager It would be beager , but what is G and E say itself G isn't it? Yeah, so you've really got to protect, you've got to protect that I, okay, so can you put bigger in a sentence Trevor? Erm, er er the man was bigger than the boy A man was bigger than the boy, good. Charlie the next one Erm parents Yes I love my parents Oh I am pleased, I love my parents, good, spare, spare I let someone borrow my spare pencil, I let someone borrow my spare pencil Prepare Prepare, what does that mean? Erm, you prepare something Can you put it in a sentence for me? I prepare for my music exam I prepare for my music exam, if you're going to do prepare, what are you going to put on the end? Yes I would care for when I had to do something, rather than just go straight into that, good Giggle Giggle, mm, we know all about that don't we? I giggle when somebody I giggle when somebody erm no if you say giggle you're actually saying the present tense, so giggles Giggles giggles would be better, because it sounds as if they've already chosen we all have a giggle, yes it can be a giggle until, if you're using giggle and a giggle what sort of word is it? a noun, yeah, if you use giggles, then Ashley what sort of words is it then? What, oh dear, oh It's not an oh dear word, no It's a verb Thank you, it's a verb, right, to do something, so it's the same spelling that can be used in different ways. What about the next one Goggles Goggles I wore my goggles in the swimming pool I wore my goggles in the swimming pool, good Right, the next one Erm, trigger Yes A man pulled the trigger on his gun and shot him yes absolutely Luggage Luggage Erm, I had to have my luggage checked at the airport I had to have my luggage checked at the airport, you see what's happened to the end of that word, look at it right, you've got age at the end because what rule is working there? Got a double G Pardon? Got a double g No have a look, you're only looking at the beginning of it here try again It's got the E on the end And what sort of E is that? Not the magic, magic E Yes it's the magic E, isn't it, and what's it making that A say? A as opposed to U isn't it, so it's really like lugg age so if you say it quickly together it becomes luggage, yeah, okay, the next one, oh sorry put it in a sentence Suggest Suggest erm, I, I have to suggest that the erm the had er mm, that's right, I had to suggest the captain's orders. I suggested how, what would you put on the end of suggested? E D E D, even though when we say it, it sounds like if you said I made a suggestion, what sort of word would that be? Come on, you're all asleep, now a suggestion what would that be? A nou Yes come on Charlie be brave, a noun, yes, a something isn't it, a, if you write a or the in front of a word it's usually a noun, okay, so just keep listening for the a and the. The next one, Trevor Erm beware Beware, right and a sentence please Beware of Frankenstein Beware of Frankenstein. Charlie Erm third one down I had a nightmare last night You had a nightmare last night. What happened in your nightmare? Don't know Come back to life again because when you woke up this morning and the next one Juggle Juggle Erm, I know a clown that juggles I know a clo a clown that juggles. Why couldn't you actually have J U G, one G, L E? why couldn't you have the spelling J U G L E? Something would happen to the L Something would happen not to the L but to the vowel. Hello I'm terribly busy Norma actually, I've got a full lesson at the minute, erm, I'll, I'll try and, and sort that out as soon as I've finished this lesson okay, thanks for telling me Norma thank you, bye . Jugle Yes because what happens when you've got just a very thin L, the magic E can even work through it, U, right, so it will be jugle , yeah,jugle , that wouldn't be the right pronunciation at all, okay, let's go on to the next one Erm struggle Yes I had a struggle getting the ball out of the scrum Well done, I, very good, I had a struggle getting the ball out of the scrum, right Wriggle Wriggle Erm I had to wriggle out of the scrum I had to wriggle out of the scrum, right, good Farewell, is that farewell I have to say farewell to my yes cos what's happened to him? is he really, is he really? Yes Oh I didn't know that, I thought the army was no he's going to Gloucester and then he's erm going to erm Cheltenham and Gloucester is the poly that he's going to? Yes polytech Oh right, I see when you said that I thought he was going to an army regiment that they put up in Gloucester Oh I got that mixed up, sorry about that, right when does that happen then? This October Erm, the twenty first Right, and what's he going to do there? Oh is he? Oh good, oh I, I'm rather pleased about that right, can we do the next one, the last one It's a boggin crash It's a boggin crash What Yes, that's what you're going to do today Well that's perfectly alright. I've tried to make them a little bit longer. Any plans? Well I, obviously want to try and attend meetings if and when possible, er I've been to one last week, which basically was er because I don't feel I'm qualified to get up and David got up and spoke very well actually, he was always, at the police not neighbourhood watch, er to do with the cascade telephone system which we found out afterwards, after a three quarters hour debate a man came up to Dave afterwards and showed him a memo which said this cascade system has now ceased in November nineteen ninety-two and that was the the abuse on that particular meeting. I do intend to er to attend inaugural meetings with each of the C P O s er with a view to looking I mean obviously at some stages you said to me that I would probably have to attend at short notice Mm probably by going to these meetings I can pick up the be best practice for ideas which can be passed on to the others If anybody hears of any neighbourhood watch group meetings, I think make sure Paul knows about it so he can attend where possible Yeah Like him to go and look at the one at er the at er which seems to be a successful one Well I went to the last week and I did say that I'd like to go to that one, I'll go to as many as I can Yeah what I would like and I'm sure it happens with the previous C P O er and I have been notified by telephone and I keep saying to them let me know, but I would like probably a memo from each C P O to say that there is a meeting on this particular night. Do you mean inaugural meetings Well an any meetings really because I think if I can er show my face at these meetings it might er I mean I think whether or not it's because of the increase in burglaries or whether it's because of the publicity via David we seem to have had er a hell of a lot of er enquiries about the schemes. More than normal Tracy ain't it? Yeah I think so Yeah Okay er It's amazing that he's What you saying that for Jed, how long you been saying that for? Yeah I know, but there has ain't there, you know but I say that and I live in an area where there's not a neighbourhood watch scheme and I ain't setting one up to until I retire As crime goes up, people see it as a way of protecting their property don't they Yes seventeen per cent of reported crime is up mm Erm, may I make a comment on neighbourhood watch, I went to er a job the other day, it was a theatre, I was off duty and er I got tapped on the shoulder by my local neighbourhood watch co-ordinator who said, nine months ago I resigned, I wrote a letter to headquarters, I wrote a letter to the divisional commander, and I wrote a letter to the local constable, and nobody's replied to me and they still keep sending me papers are you gonna get your act together, now I I have brought this up before, we never ever have let a neighbourhood watch scheme lapse, it's nothing to do with you, this is all before you came no Er we just kept them on and there's I know quite a few schemes have stopped working but we've still got them written down somewhere probably now we started it might be well worth while g getting rid of some of these schemes that aren't operating Are you saying then that when one's lapsed for six months or over a given period of time we should actually go out there and remove the signs Yeah Well that's one of my next questions because I think it's debatable either way, a a lot of people and I'm finding this just want to be in a neighbourhood watch scheme to take advantage of insurance er and also to have the sign up once the signs are up and they got insurance they're not bothered, and you can tell that by the er gist of the conversation on the telephone. The other the other thing is I've discussed this with C P Os as regards the signs, if a scheme folds then we take the sign down, there are arguments for and against, No No say yeh or nay at the moment No But if the sign's left up surely that's erm deterrent towards crime prevention on the other hand it might make some people realise that if they're no longer a scheme then they don't get the er the Yeah Once a co-ordinator's retired or resigned who do you actually communicate with to find out if the group wants to continue playing Well it should be in the file and I asked for this and keep it before me when a scheme is set up, A we have a map which I must have sent out letters, em I've received very few replies so the signs can be erected and B either a deputy co-ordinator or the deputies that should come in, now some some oblige a lot of them don't Right well let's find one or two of these schemes that appear to have lapsed, send some letters to the names in the file, if we don't get any positive response within a couple of months, let's go and take the signs down er and then wait for the squeals We'll do it ourselves, although the council are the only people who can put them up anyone can take them down, All you need is a pair of wire cutters wire cutters and we'll have them down, have 'em back here, and they won't be wasted, cos although you can't use the straps again we're always short of fronts because of damage cos you can regularly replace the fronts but not the straps Well we can buy straps, or always order some more straps if that's the case Yes It'll also if we start to take action provoke somebody else to take over the schemes, Well that's right At the moment nobody's interested But I think we need to prove that we've actually communicated with quite a few people to say that if we don't hear from you in two months then I'm afraid the scheme will lapse. Is that down to us or should we notify the division to make contact No if if we notify the division after the end of it We can only write to people we know it might well be twenty out of thirty houses wanted Well I think you'll find, but they might be more up to date than Mike Well then, in that case let's send a copy letter to the local station I think so for their information I intend o go through all the files in due course, I mean it's Well It its a big task, em er the thing is that I think that that the first point of call is one is that we get the questionnaire out and see whether you know the one where can we can the questionnaires to all the neighbourhood watch is it,w w we prepare the questionnaire and we get on and send it out, right. Depending on the replies from them in relation to those that have lapsed we then send a second letter to them saying is there anybody that will take over the scheme, if not, right we we intend to remove the signs from the er from the area and then if there is no reply to this letter within fourteen days we you know we'll come and remove the signs. I think there's a lot of them That trawl will bring out a couple of dozen schemes that have totally lapsed, and people will write snotty letters saying I've told you this once before. Mm yeah So great, let's communicate with any other deputies and say if you're not prepared to take it over we'll close the we're afraid the scheme will have to close down. And And remove the signs And any claim and and please inform your insurance companies, And depending on the area we'll give a photocopy of the map and Derek will fetch 'em in, Derek can take them down. Who'll doing No We have that many er applications I mean I've just gone through A division and I've got er a pile of cards literally an inch thick with people a made an initial inquiry or b they've been furnished with questionnaires and not been returned, so I'm sending those er right through the divisions Mm That's the task of the moment, in between the everyday work. Mm, yeah Then of course there's this insurance thing to do as well when David's er free and sorted out Yeah well it's a lot of that Yeah, at least we'll end up with a scheme that's up-to-date and accurate Yeah Well we could also from that by photocopying the er the addresses erm and sending these letters out we might well get updated on the schemes anyway That er a scheme isn't operating What about computerisation of the system to come back to us every twelve months if no contact Eventually, yes. Eventually yes. I think we only want to be on the mainframe so that the divisions can access details in the middle of the night. I think we still have priority at the moment to computers, in effect Paul is going to We might as well I still think we have to have the system as such, perhaps not so intricate, but certainly keep the file probably with the bits in We might, cos you won't be able to put maps and things on them Eh But certainly the main co-ordinators er Almost like the burglar alarm you just have scheme, head co-ordinators, you know deputy co-ordinator, number of 'ouses and that just a basic so you go in We we don't want really is street co-ordinators because No that'd be a mammoth task If you have somebody like somewhere like that I'm not talking about that, I'm now talking about Tollerton but it's eight hundred properties, it's a small village but there are twenty seven street co-ordinators, so you know Erm yeah so say all you need is just access to that field so if they do change you can just At the moment you do I take it you're recording people who sort of ring up say I'm interested you send out a package to them you record them Yes I would think about giving up that, send the package out and forget about them Well, this is something I've just done myself Yeah but I mean you send the package out and you get a phone call er it's Mr Davies, and then you get card out and then you send him the questionnaire it's merely a record duplicated on the form but it's, I can't see any other way to do it at the moment, I mean probably when I Yeah think about it, but I mean you don't start a file at that stage do you? No just a card in er a pending tray and that's it So you know who they are, yeah Er a sheet of paper for Tracy to get the initial erm out and then they just go through the system And you also get sometimes two people off the same street Well that's it It's just a reference they want you Mr Smith two doors away Well I've had one for Basingfield or Basingfield Oh I spoke to her, yeah yeah, I've had three applications all for the it's only a small village albeit it's spread and that's a You know for the er village Well have you spoken to Sergeant to alleviate all the paperwork, and yeah yeah and incur any additional expense Three three farms and there's only te ten properties altogether in about two hundred yards But they're building some more aren't they, building another seven Building some, yeah building some massive houses there and a Happy Eater as well Well that's it Do they include that in the scheme, some of them on the rate, I won't bother with that anyway it's not our problem yeah Okay anybody I've got one I meant to put on the main agenda and I forgot, and I wrote the agenda . I've been offered the opportunity by er Bob in training er in force have taken this on er the tactical unit have taken it on, the chance of er one day erm assessment or appraisal training, at erm probably at Exeter for those of us that do it and erm I think that perhaps with the the way that the diverse way that our staff's spread out the proper ways of assessing people which I've I've never been shown how to do and I don't think many of us have. Erm I mean he it sort of went through our staff inspector wise and er Paul was sort of chatting, and he wasn't being unkind he said yes, they'll be dinosaurs because it's a long time since you've had er any training like that. What about civilian staff, I have to assess my staff, I haven't had no training. yeah, yeah right, yeah I also said that erm my I expressed that the fears that I expressed at this meeting last time about er the fact that Paul and I now supervise civilian staff, er which I've never been sat down and told what the civilians term of contract are and what I can or cannot say or whatever, so erm I feel it will be quite valuable, and brought it for me to see if anybody think it's worthwhile pursuing. A one day appraisal Yes, it's a one day, Just write it on a memo form Paul and send it round with a circulation slip, and those who feel they want to get involved put their name down, probably the quickest way of doing it. Right, things are on hold though with assessments aren't they at the moment, cos they aren't they always don't they change every ten minutes I ain't got time to do assessments let alone a one day course. Yeah, that's true. I think that your two waiting for signature on his desk, You haven't seen mine have you, Well why do you want one, you've just bloody had one No it's Derek First time he's said anything nice about me, I thought I'll get in while I can Derek, it won't last Right, anyone else want to bring any points up Took me, took me about bloody two days to do your last one Stuart is having a social event on the eleventh of March for the media and the police, I'll circulate this round with a er slip on it, erm it involves a conducted tour of the police station and some bits and bobs oooh And everyone's very welcome to come, I'll let you know reply to it Eleventh of March Well it's now come under a general invited round to us all Yeah Eleventh of March, yeah The on the contacts slip so you can read at your leisure, anybody else want to raise any points, Tracy at all, David About car park Green vans, green vans green vans Are we I'm gonna tell it don't start No, I've been and spoken to them again this morning and yesterday, R S C left it there not O S D although it's O S D's van, so they should've come out to move it on Friday and the mechanics didn't turn up, then they lost the keys, cos yesterday myself and who was it, Lyn, waited up for the keys cos they were gonna move down put it into a safer spot. mm Couldn't find the keys anywhere Well they were hung up on the board in O S D on Friday when I went down there Which which office? In the a in the No, you know you know as you're going down the corridor before you get to the doors to go down the next set of stairs, I mean in O S D, the last one is er for the P C that does all the man er you know all the duties and things like that, and in his office there's a great big board with all the vehicles on, and the key's hung up at the end and who's got 'em out, and the bottom one is that green van, because he went up and picked 'em up, when I was there. I was coming to David tomorrow morning if it's still there yeah yeah We're not gonna put any down cos it's going somewhere else But they're gonna have to find him Erm Bob Bob No no no You have to wait until all the transit vans are out and double parked put it across across the transit van bays So nobody can get in at all Mm, or their transits Let's throw the keys away I was saying to David this morning there was a on the police that was good probably terribly naive oh it says something like J R Green a number which doesn't exist and any tradesperson could have the name address type of trade and a real phone number course they would yeah You could change the signs quite regular though couldn't you Painter and decorator one day and er butcher the other Quite easily throw, throw some paint over the back and everything paint running out the back Mm yeah detail like that Hear that rubbish really, not our problem, anybody else want to bring any points up No no We've got dates for the meeting, I've got two suggestions, one is that I can't see any point anymore why here here and it's to one yeah, here here better headquarters, yeah, where where S thirty one, if we book it in advance we can get in S thirty one downstairs in the canteen, cos we're only an hour and half, two hours meeting yeah We can be finished by quarter to twelve Good idea, any items of agenda for Sergeant , who will be organising the next meeting in S thirty one Okay yeah fine twenty eighth of March Hang on He's on holiday bloody right The meetings coming for comments like that There's an S L O's meeting on the twenty eighth of March Oh good I'm in Majorca Are we gonna do dates now or I think we regard the deputies visit as a special visit and Mm yeah I mean I think the thing to do I mean we most of our lot are within the corridor, what we need to do is get headquarters find out when the rooms free and ring everybody round Can you organise that Yeah I'll find it Yeah, if you go up to that door Yeah well fifteenth March what day is it Tuesday? There there's some dates on there No fifteenth of March is out. Silly bugger Wednesday it's a Tuesday Fifteenth of March twenty second of March It's much easier with a cal diary Okay for that one What twenty second of March, is that too far ahead? Right twenty second if there's any difficulty I'll come back to Paul and Keith cos to let everybody else know about any problems S thirty one is it Well yes S thirty one Well Do you think it's Do you not think it's worthwhile booking the rest of the year's meetings or shall we do it as we carry on What you mean going to find a room I'm bored now Are we closing the meetings Yeah we're all bored The meeting's closing just before ten thirty thank you. The sun has now risen the sun is over the yard arm. Come in. Good morning. Morning . You're a stranger. Aye. What can we do for you this morning ? It's my pills. I need pills You need some poison. . I'm only needing the Lazarite and er aspirin, Lazarite What about your spray, Walter? No? No I'm alright for that. I'm okay for . You're alright for your spray. so that's I am due my line too. fine. Is that ? Aye. Are you still Gardens, yeah? Yes. There you are young Walter, and that'll keep you for a week . Doctor. Right. Cheerio now. Good morning. It's Mackeson Gold Cup Day, it's been raining heavily at Cheltenham, there's a non-runner in the big race details coming up. We'll also be looking back a little bit at the Breeder's Cup, we'll also have the result of your poll for the Channel Four racing personality of the year, there's the picture puzzle and lots of other things as well which I can't remember. You look a bit like Annie Oakley this morning. Or Annie get your gun if you're not careful Exactly. And Oakes I do like your tie. I'm glad you mentioned that cos it was given to me by the wife of the steeplechase handicap a very important man today cos for more than She didn't whisper and Melinda his wife runs Simply Delightful which is wh that's one of the things she has a shop in Malton and that's something Didn't whisper anything that's well in today in the Mackeson did she? No. What's on today? It's a busy old day. Well it's lacing there's racing all over the all over the country and except at Ayr in Scotland it's raining everywhere I'm sorry to say. Racing at Ayr up in Scotland where it is dry, Nottingham, Cheltenham where the Mackeson Gold Cup is, big card at Windsor with a lot of runners and finally the all-weather racing at Lingfield. Well as John said wet and windy everywhere unless you go very far north but those people up at Ayr it's gonna be cold so you can't have everything. Main meeting as we've said is Cheltenham let's have the news from there . First race there twelve fifty the going at the moment is good but they have had a quarter of an inch of rain overnight so of course I suppose there's every chance it could go to good to soft by this afternoon. Two important non runners there in the twelve fifty, number seven Far Senior and in the two o'clock number thirteen the I wouldn't say old timer but Panto Prince anyway shame he's not going to get a run. It is raining at the moment and it's gonna be wet and windy but quite mild for the rest of the day. No hazards but there'll be a good crowd so get there in plenty of time. Actually there's a race at eleven thirty it's a running race between members of the Press and the jockeys, people like Peter Scudimore, Deckland Murphy, Ben Newton for the press he could be the dark horse. It's over hurdles as well that could be good for a laugh especially if er you don't clear them as well as you should do. Erm Scu's Scu's for the press. Scu's running for the press. Scu's yeah Yeah Yeah is that a help or a hindrance ? I don't anyway this is just one of the highlights of what has been two marvellous days at the Mackeson meeting sponsored of course by Whitbread and the big race today is the fifty thousand pound Mackeson Gold Cup confirming fifteen runners over two and a half miles. Panto Prince is out and General Pershing is now new favourite and clear favourite. Neil Doughty eleven to two, Bradbury Star that has to be the favourite easing slightly this seven to one with General Idea. Just looking at those prices on the screen I suppose Oakes General Pershing is a worthy favourite or is he? Well it's a very very competitive race I I I suppose he may have the best chance but there are an awful lot with good chances. I think he's got a great chance. I saw him around two weeks ago at Wetherby and er I think he'll run well. He was ten to one earlier in the week and the rain will have helped. Yes I mean if it if it does go to good to soft he will like the ground. There's a couple in there that would prefer it faster. Mm. Erm but at that sort of price I think he's opposable. Well let's see what we can oppose him with. Bradley Star is a very nice horse he's a classy performer this one, Josh Gifford's horses are in tremendous form and I was talking to the man who who rides him Deckland Murphy he's my next door neighbour he thinks he'll run a big race. He would be my pick I must say, of them He's he's The trouble is he's run he's run some marvellous races but somehow when it comes to the crunch and er in in in better class races he just gets just gets beat. He loves Cheltenham though I mean he's had four firsts and a second Erm, he's only won I admit yeah he's only once been beaten at Cheltenham . Erm another I know er I've spoken to Deckland Murphy as well being the Newmarket's jumps jockey and erm they think he's the Gold Cup horse well if he is he's gonna have to put in a good performance today then I'd stick with him. Think he's gonna win? Yeah exactly. It's a it's a very very good race this and one of the good horses is a horse called General Idea. Now what a training performance this would be if this horse could win because he's trained by Dermott Wilde and do you remember ten days ago he sent out Vintage Crop to win the Melbourne Cup down in Australia. Well the word from Ireland this week is that this horse is jumping out of its skin. The only problem is that the ground now might well have gone against this horse. But he did win the Galway Plate earlier this summer. This is fast ground At Galway and that's the problem with General Idea as you say Derek er if it gets softer like at Cheltenham that will be very much against him. But er it doesn't look like a steeplechase but it is in fact a two mile steeplechase the Galway Plate and General Idea running really well from and Express but the ground's the problem. and lighter weight as well last year and has more weight today so he's had he would have had to have improved about four or five pounds to win today? That's right. And there's very li very little between him and er the the other ex-Irish horse Second Schedule. Exactly. Well let's have a look we've got er Second Schedule. Now he's recently joined David Nicholson's stable. Yes that's right er I er believe in fact I know because the Duke says so in the Racing Post today the reason he's gone there is to get Adrian Maguire because Adrian has ridden him already in Ireland and the owner wanting to stick with Maguire which you can't blame him for Exactly As David Nicholson said he'll be taking orders from the jockey today instead of the other way around. I don't imagine he says that very often. Perhaps he's given the Duke his orders. Oh I'd like to do that. Now well let's have a look at this horse and another schedule because as I say he was trained in Ireland by Arthur and er we saw them at Punchestown back in April where he finished second to another of his rivals today Bishops Hall. As they come to the final fence Second Schedule being pressed by Ebony Jane and Bishops Hall on the nearside and over the last Second Schedule and Bishops Hall on the nearside, Ebony Jane in third, in fourth place is Joe White and racing into the closing stages it's Second Schedule with Bishops Hall on the nearside Graham Bradley again as they go to the line, Bishops Hall wins it for Harry , Second Schedule is second, Joe White is third, Ebony Jane four. Bishops Hall doing it nicely under Brad and it's good to see him in the saddle today because he was offered the ride on Morley Street but he'd already said yes and he's a man of his word and he agreed to ride this horse. And there's been a lot of hoo-ha in the Press about should be ride Morley Street or shouldn't he. Once you say yes you gotta stick to your word and Morley Street, good horse, but has a lot of weight today. Lot of weight and again it's it's fences isn't it. He'd last time tried over these he he wasn't at his best. Erm had a run on the flat so you know I mean I think we should be but It's a it's a very bold thing of Toby Baldwin to run him in this race it seems to me, you know I mean he definitely appeared to not like . Yes It's only his third run and he's he's in the most competitive two and a half mile chase in the year. But he oozes class and he's had a strange preparation. You mention the flat race. Let's let's have a look at that race. It was at Newmarket just a couple of weeks ago. And I can tell you he he does an an awful lot. Here you can see him second last but making ground now. Er My Patriarch and er is is taking the lead from Ritto who later ran so well in the Cesarovitch but just look at Morley Street now. Here he comes past one past another past yet another into third place in the end and that was an extraordinarily good performance. No. It's a very good turn of foot for a for a jumper isn't it though ? Very nice. And he he very nearly won the Doncaster Cup wasn't it. Yes I think it was the Doncaster Cup. Yes mm. I seem to remember Toby Baldwin has said that erm Could be the short head. I backed it with thirty three to one is that it? I remember that. Trust you to remember that. Now he does say he would you know he even thinks he could be a Gold Cup horse and emulate Dawn Run I mean again it's it's great claims this early on but er they wouldn't be running him if they didn't think he's got a chance. Light would be a topical tip wouldn't it? Yeah wouldn't it just. And will like the ground. There's just got to be a bit of a stamina question mark there. Mm. The connections and I know John as well are sure he get the trip. Erm he will like the ground. I suppose he's every you know he's got every chance if he gets home. Andy Turner's horses running well . Just doesn't They're they're running really well Mm. but it just doesn't want to get too soft because that old hill you know it it does get a big of a drag. Okay. We've talked about it. What's going to win the Mackeson? I'll go Bradbury Star. Yeah he's gotta be there. Storma Lad. Storma Lad? Mhm. Mm. Well I think General Pershing will win but watch out for Our Margaret, twenty five to one. How's the betting looking Alastair? Well General Pershing is the buzz horse this morning. Victor Chandler the longest eleven to two, I should think he's been trampled to death in the rush. Er Ladbrokes went five to one. That is being taken to good money they say, it was the professional's choice yesterday the faces were all backing it yesterday. The five to one will last to the end of the ten minute guarantee at the shops, it will then go four and by the General Pershing could be as low as seven to two or a hundred to thirty according to Ladbrokes. Hills have had erm each way for Nephew and Our Margaret but the focus of the betting today with this rain coming at Cheltenham is going to be Gordon Richard's General Pershing and he's gonna go off a short price. Is your money going to be on the favourite? Er my money's gone on Storm Storm Alert about ten days ago at twelves and Mm. that's almost certainly enough to nail it to the floor I would have thought. Are you worried that you were obviously worried about this rain as well? Er likes it likes the ground. It needs the ground. Mhm. And I've said that you know I'd rather it was on the soft but whether it will get Yeah. the trip or not we'll find out this afternoon. It's gonna be a cracking good race at too. But what about the other race meetings today? Let's have the early news. Oakes. Yes. Wind's up. There's no danger of the river rising so fast it floods the course as it sometimes does but sadly as you can see, rain overnight and it's raining now. And do watch out for those roadworks on the M four just by the M twenty five junction. Well at Nottingham as well as first race twelve forty five there's a wedding. The prospective Mr and Mrs Martin are celebrating their wedding in a private hospitality suite and as well as er entertaining their guests they're sponsoring the Andy and Tracy wedding day novelties chase. And they have a runner in . So all the very best to them. The going however whether their horse will like it or not is good from good to firm and there's a non runner in the one fifteen that's number one urgh Canderbill, there we go. That's about a third of an inch of rain overnight and again it's gonna be wet for the rest of the day. When you go into the course follow signs for Colic Park. celebrating your wedding with Chase but this is Ayr and it's the only dry spot in the British Isles. There was no rain overnight so that the ground er is good with just a few soft places. No hazards on the roads. And the where the meeting of the day is at Lingfield Park. First race there twelve twenty because there are eight races so an action-packed good value afternoon there. An eighth of an inch of rain overnight but that shouldn't make any difference at all but a wet windy day. No reported hazards. Doesn't look a brilliant day does it weatherwise at the races clouds. Wetherby by the way Tuesday third annual charity meeting in aid of the International Spinal Research Trust. It's on Tuesday sixteenth of November. A lot of local people have certainly er given generously so should be a good day's racing. Always is at Wetherby if you can win there you can win anywhere. But what about the guy who's won the Channel Four champion tipster competition for last week? Let me first of all give you his name and I'll tell you what this guy's damn brilliant. It is Robert from road in in Oxfordshire who got an amazing a hundred and thirty points. Now I say amazing let's just see where he got his winners. Now that okay no problems there,second and third but look at this, he gave the first second and third and they didn't even have a handicap. Er the Looking for a Rainbow, Flight Lieutenant, all skill of course, well you deserve that. Well done Robert and you get five hundred pounds. We'll have another champion tipster competition in a fortnight here on Channel Four which will be coming from Newcastle. Now let's test your turf knowledge as we go into the commercial break. This er turf trivia today has been sent in by S who comes from Great Lumley in County Down. Know it well. He asks quite simply with which horses did trainer Fred Rival win the Mackeson Gold Cup four years running in nineteen sixty eight, sixty nine, seventy and seventy one? You get scratching those heads and I'll give you the answer in three minutes from now. Okay did you get it right? With which horses did trainer Fred Rival win the Mackeson in sixty eight, sixty nine, seventy and seventy one four years running. They were Jupiter Boy, Gay Trip, Chatham and Gay Trip again. What an incredible performance that was. Three different horses won it four years running. The late and much missed Fred Rival By the way I saw Mercy at the horse of the year show a few weeks ago. Still looking as good as ever. Erm non runners, non runners there were three in so far, two of them were at Cheltenham. They are Far Senior in the first in the twelve fifty and Panto Prince did not run in the Mackeson at two o'clock. And Canderbill is out of the one fifteen at Nottingham. Any good news in the papers Alastair? Well Derek for a change there is. And here in the Sporting Life there's the man who rode Gay Trip to Mackeson victory one of his Mackeson victories, Terry Biddlecombe. Large as life and smiling. He's been in the wars a bit since his racing career. He was one of my childhood heroes, a marvellous jockey and a great chap. He's been on the sauce basically but he's kicked the habit and he says of kicking the drinking habit I've had a lot of help and a lot of good counselling, in the end it's up to me. I don't want to be complacent but since March I seem to be winning . Well that's great news. And a lot of people have rallied round Terry Biddlecombe, very popular man, Injured Jockeys' Fund among others and he's back in the back in the swim fully employed and in action for Mackeson today at er Cheltenham. Here in the Mail Peter Scudimore wearing his new hack's hat. Pipe can still meet the gold standard. There are a lot of people saying that Mike Martin Pipe is not the force he was etcetera but there's been a change of policy down at and if anyone thinks that Pipe has lost his touch they're talking twaddle. He'll be back and he might be back at working men's prices. You pay your money and you take your choice on the Mackeson and here J A Magrar in the Telegraph idea represents Mackeson value . He has some very harsh words for the Japanese about their ban on Frankie Detory saying it's shortsighted and harsh in the extreme and we'll all say yes to that. Er in the Star Brad's a star. This is Josh Gifford exclusive another one of these trainers learning to be a journalist. Time some journalists learned to be trainers I think. He says I'm convinced he's a mu this is Bradbury he's a much better stronger horse this season and really do think he can bring the beer money back to Sussex. We will see. And here today's bandwagon rolling tip,Pershing po poised to fulfil his promise , that's Paul Johnson in the Racing Post, John de Moreville in the Express Pershing to strike his target and now here is something of which nobody can be proud Gosforth Park South Africa . This is in the Sporting Life and it's also in the Racing Post and this is a cynical move by the bookies to pick your pocket. There are five race meetings today. There are more dog cards than you shake a stick at yet the bookies are peddling this tripe from South Africa through the morning. Now in the first race the ten fifty, number nine is called Jew Wanna Bet Now when you hear that mentioned in the betting shops go no and pull the plugs out of the television. We do not want to bet thank you very much on South African racing, we've got quite enough of our own without the bookies . I like South Africa. Well you're barmy. We've got quite enough of our own without you peddling the South Africans. Now controversial stuff here in the Sporting Life David Ashforth. Now Jerry Bailey the man who rode Ah Kong This is at a press conference after the Breeders' Cup. Jerry Bailey typically articulate was being asked about his success on Ah Kong He described how he had moved alongside a European ridden horse. He didn't know which one it was he just knew it wa was a European rider. How did he know that? The Americans all sniggered. Bailey smirked a bit. Well he replied he was kind of flopping about. And everyone laughed. Well all the Americans did. We didn't. That was Walter Swinburne he was talking about. And Bailey's comments are backed up by the trainer Derek Meredith who says American jockeys are better, they ride closer to the horse they're neater and they are stronger too. There was a warm hum of approval from the American hacks. You were there John, what did you think of all that ? I wasn't part of the warm hum of approval I don't suppose so. and Mr Meredith was a failed jockey in England. He ended up riding a few jumpers in France so its erm although he's a good trainer now I don't think he's an authority and it's poppycock er frankly. But when appear over here they're a great success. Is there anything in it? Oh of course they're of course they are a great success. They are top class jockeys. But our top class jockeys in America do not flop about they use a slightly different style. Admittedly they're a little bit less streamlined but if you're going to say that that makes a serious difference but what's the difference in the courses as well over here that our our guys have to cope with. true The tracks in America okay we go over there and we say they're tight they're quite difficult to ride. There's nothing like an Epsom, there's nothing like the variety that our jockeys have to cope with Yes. day in day day out True. and it wasn't one of ours that dropped their whip That's true. out there so you know you can criticize . Talking of the whip I mean we're only allowed to hit them five times over here. In America they seem to hit them twenty five times And in all sorts everywhere they want to anywhere they want to Yeah So but there it's it's a very interesting point there because a lot of our young boys now the Dow Holland Alan Munroes are riding more the American style. It's an interesting point. I don't think he's right in what he says but I think it might have been a bit tongue in cheek as well. They certainly weren't saying it about Lester Piggott on Royal Academy a couple of years back either. No but I did say about it Lester Piggott on a few weeks ago . Yes. Lester Piggott when he won on . Mm. And the next . Very good. Very good impression. Talking of Lester Piggott he of course was the winner of the first ever Channel Four personality of the year trophy which we awarded for the first time last year. He was a guest on the morning line at Newmarket and there it is that magnificent trophy which is valued at five thousand pounds. Now we couldn't have him in this year to give the others a chance so this is how you voted for the nineteen ninety three racing personality of the year on Channel Four and let's take it in reverse order starting with the person who finished fourth. In fourth place one of the hardest working and most successful trainers in Britain Jack Barry. He polled nine percent. In third place the most successful jockey in the history of national hunt racing Peter Scudimore. He polled eleven percent. Runner-up the ever popular Willie Carson. Willie received seventeen percent of the overall votes. So who did you vote for? Who's the nineteen ninety three Channel Four racing personality of the year? It is Mary Reevley who polled twenty percent. Just as successful on the flat or over jumps I think this is a very very worthy winner our congratulations to Mary Reevley and I'm gonna get her on the show and present the prize to her. If we get her on the show that really will be something cos I know she's shy but well done. Ling Dell can be proud of her up in North Yorkshire. Charity bets twenty five pounds and we came down in the car from Newmarket she had the she had the post out the light everything, now what's what's it going on? Exactly. I've not, Alastair accused me of being topical because of a member of the royal family this week this is not the reason but I've gone for Leotard in the one twenty five at Cheltenham. Could a lot fitter than it did ah I love it. Oakes what are you going for? Mm. Ballasarly I'm going for. Ballasarly? There's a slight I mean over hurdles there's a doubt about his stamina Mm. but erm he won at a huge long was it the er Queen Alexandra Yeah. at Royal Ascot erm so that I'm confident he will stay and Mr Pipe is not dead yet. That's true. And Alastair what do you fancy? What's your ? Er Front Street in a small race at Nottingham. Small prize big chance. Cor blimey. I haven't heard of that one. General Pershing is the one to be on at the big race. That's mine let's check it out. Oakes is going for Ballasarly in the two thirty five Cheltenham, Leslie's going for Leotard that's the top weight in the first at one twenty five er oh in the second. Alastair's going for Front Street at Nottingham number five in the two twenty, Thomo's going for General Pershing in the two o'clock at Cheltenham. Picture puzzle. Picture puzzle. Can you work out today's picture puzzle? This horse is running somewhere today. Okay I wonder where? I promise three extra ice creams a day now will you please come on the set. Something to do Miss er Sara Lingfield I wonder where that's running today? O eight nine one double nine double one double four win a hundred pound do you win a copy of this book? This is the William Hill racing dates. It's a smashing book that Graham Sharp's brought out. What's the date today chaps? November the thirteenth? Peter Niven rode a five timer at Ayr in nineteen ninety two. Eighteen eighty nine the Foston selling plate at Derby was declared void after the whole field got lost in the thick fog covering the course and ended up running round the back of a cricket pavilion. Have you been round the back of a cricket pavilion recently? No. But there was a one day in which Frenchie Nick Nicholson erm brought all the tail-enders across and had been told the one thing he shouldn't do was be last he was thinking I'm not last and behind you then he came in in front of him and he was last. I love it. Lovely story. Anyway that's it from the morning line. I'm off to Windsor they're off to Cheltenham and everywhere else. We'll see you next Saturday. We'll give you the result of picture puzzle then. Till then from all of us bye bye. See you next week. Good afternoon and welcome to On the Record. We know what the Conservative party thought of Michael Heseltine this week, they cheered him to the echo when he strode on to the platform at Blackpool. But what does Michael Heseltine think of the party? And of the direction it has now taken. In today's programme he gives us an exclusive interview, the first since his heart attack four months ago. And could British Rail be sold to British Rail? We've learned that the government can't rely on enough support from its own back benchers to push through privatization on its own terms. And why should Chinese ancestor worship appeal to government ministers. John Cole returns from the seaside with answers to the questions you always wanted to know but were afraid to ask. But first Michael Heseltine. He's been a force in British politics for a third of a century, but for how much longer. We've heard nothing from him for the past four months since that heart attack in Italy. Though the rumours have told us a great deal, he's still far from well, he might need a heart bypass, he's gonna have to retire form politics. At the very least, his influence over the party and British politics is at an end. Well it didn't sound at all like any of that when I spoke to M Mr Heseltine, near his home, a couple of hours ago. I asked him first, How are you? I'm well. Er medically, as best as I understand what the doctors tell me, er I'm er fine to carry the responsibilities and strain of er the cabinet job that I had. But you have to do it g slowly. Take it a step at a time. It'd be crazy to sort of do a dive in from the sort of recuperative process. But er er the er one of the doctors who looked inside my heart They put a local injection, telescope upside, he said I've got the arteries of a man of thirty or forty. Don't don't quarrel with him. Don't quarrel with him . So what does that mean? No need for a bypass? Because they No no no no I just lost the tip of an artery. Closed down, finish. So there's it w it wasn't close to the heart. And so there's n the arteries themselves are very good. But this tip for reasons beyond my knowledge has gone so there's nothing to be done about it and erm er the last test I had the guy who conducted it said, You've already got the heart off an average sixty year old who hasn't had a heart attack. And that sort of is very encouraging. So you're completely fit er Medically yes. Er but it takes time to recover from the er the the shock and the experience and the unnerving. But I've come a long way and er so I'll go back next er Wednesday to the department and er er if people will bear with me and put up with it er I'll take it er fairly slowly to start with but I dare say there will come a time when er erm you won't notice much difference. What you you say the shock of it. What what was it like? All of those of us who haven't had a heart attack live in fear of it obviously and think Yeah well, I mean we all My father died of a heart attack. Mm. And erm er that was a long time ago. I si think it's very possible that he wouldn't have erm died under today's Today. conditions. I had wonderful treatment in Italy. I was very close to a a hospital with a wonderful cardiac er unit er where they had a professor who was one of the leading Italian in the subject. I was there within an hour, so I couldn't be more grateful and appreciative. They're wonderful people, the Italians. Er anyway that the the but the actual experience, er one knew something was wrong. I was not frightened, I didn't think anything was that wrong. But I said to Anne, Look I think you better get a doctor. This was before it happened or when it happened? you didn't have sort of intimations that something was going to happen ? Well I I you see, it's all hindsight. I think in truth erm er we'd taken a weekend off and er to go to Venice, there was a big er art exhibition on and Anne wanted to see that. Erm and I I wasn't feeling on top form and er looking back, I perhaps should have gone to a doctor then. But you don't you know. Erm but th anyway, there it was and er I had this pain Not not acute, that's why I wasn't that worried. it didn't last that long. Erm and from that moment I got into hospital and I had no more trouble. But I mean of course they plugged me up with all sorts of things. Wi with of course one disastrous consequence. Which er I mean, damn the British media like all politicians do. One of the things they have to do is to get your uric acid I think it's called erm content correct. And it it so they give you some m medicine for that. A side effect of which can be that you can develop gout. And so the what what what that Ah, that explains everybody saw was not the Mhm. fit strapping Heseltine which I wished You looked terrible. which I wished to portray. But this sort of tottering wreck. Yes. You know, hobbling to the helicopter it was my foot which had had been had gout induced. Nothing to do with the heart at all. Anyway, Sod's Law you know. that's politics. But you did look you did look truly awful in that picture that appeared in the newspapers you looked as if Well my real real girlfriends wrote and said, Michael, you've got lovely legs. But did you think you were going to die? I mean was it No no I didn't. I mean I must be honest, I did not feel that frightened erm it wasn't an acute pain that that I mean I mean one of the things that one has to realize, you can become a heart attack bore. Very easily. Everybody who's had any sort of tremor or experience or much worse, they're all individual and it's no use me talking to you about my heart condition, because you haven't got my heart. Erm e e they're all individual and mine I think, looking back, was erm erm er a light er experience and I mean as I've said, the the erm er w this telescope they shove up you, er I mean, Chris Patton had the same thing. Erm is local anaesthetic in the groin. Up goes the telescope, you're lying there you know, and the doctor told me, he said, Do you wanna watch? Do you wanna watch? And I said, Ah. You know. Anything but. Absolutely. But erm anyway that's it's all it's all now a few a few months ago. Did it change your perspective on anything, on life, on politics, on what you're doing in in in the job? Well I suppose erm well I I I I mean I remember er ludicrous really, sort of thinking of what I would say at the Tory party conference while I was lying in that hospital in Venice. And I actually made some notes . Erm then. And er so I mean it's you know, I am a politician I mean you know, it's in the blood I've b been in the in the House of Commons now for about a quarter of a century. Over a quarter of a century, most of it on the front bench. And erm I like it. But the fact is I mean I you know, you do ask these questions, your family make you ask these questions quite understandably. I there are other things I could do. I'm a manic gardener and I that's what I've been doing. Erm I could go back to commerce, although er that side of my life is some way behind and it it's always been very successfully done by er my colleagues in the company that I started. So er you know I I've I've never had a sort of er a one way track about politics, although I adore it and I've er I've enjoyed it hugely Am enjoying it and I Ah I was going to pick you said, I have enjoyed it hu I was about to leap in and say, Ah that means . Yes ye no no no no no no. How kind. Well that's the value of a programme like this, you can correct. Otherwise that'd be over the headlines. Heseltine says, Future Quite. is in the past. You know Which is not exactly what I am saying. Erm no the fact is that er I I love politics. It's er and and I have always wanted to be president of the board of trade. But what about more ambition, further ambition now? Well that's a sort of wary question but all politicians But you'd expect me to ask it. I know you're bound to ask it. And you I'm not going to give any different answer I've ever given. I my belief is that John Major will win the next election. I helped to win the last one, I shall help to win the next one. And er er I I think that er all this sort of chat about leadership challenges and all that, I think that's for the birds. I don't think we shall see it. I especially I don't think so after after the very er impressive speech he made on Friday. But there is We can come to that in a moment if we may. But there is something about you that is a bit different to politicians. Apart from that but Well th that's true that's true . Trouble. Trouble. And you've had plenty of that. Plenty of trouble. And yet you keep bouncing back or Yes. swinging back. I mean, er I wrote a book called, Where there's a will. Precisely. You resigned over over Westland you er er you were defeated for the leadership. You've had your heart attack, you've been out of action for three months and yet, when you talk to people, when the pollsters go out with their clipboards, they say, Who do you think is most likely apart from the Prime Minister, to lead the Tory party? And they say, you. Still. So what is it about you? Trouble. It's got to be a bit more than that. Ambition ? Long hair. Long hair, tall. You know. Been around a long time. Erm I what is it, who knows, who cares? You know, if I'm president of the board of trade, I'm a loyal member of John Major's cabinet. I intend to go on doing that as long as he wants me. And the inevitable qu you'd expect me to ask this to you. If John Major fell under a privatized train, would your hat still be in the ring? Or Well would you say, I've had it all now, I do I I mean I You know, you never make these er you can get every sort of evasive answer to these questions. And they're all lies, you know, they may sound nice and they may deceive people, but the truth is, any politician that I know and respect, when it comes to the crunch, if they think they have a chance of preferment and obviously ultimate preferment, take it. Some of them do it sheepishly, and with reluctance and say, It's never what I ever had in mind. But they always do it. Others are honest about it. Ken Clarke, I like him, I trust him, I admire him. What does he say, he answers the question straight, just the way I always answered it. Which is to say, yes, given another chance, I'd have a go for it. No I no I don't say that, cos what I always said is you cannot do what your friends will never let you do. That's the real test. You cannot If you're in the the House of Commons and there's a vacancy or something of this sort for a job, I mean we don't need to invent a hypothetical situation. Your friends are the ones who say, Well you're the guy who could do this. And if they don't say that, or if they positively say, You're not the guy, you're wasting your time. The only reason that you can make progress in that sort of situation is if there's a body of opinion that says that you should. But somebody like you could always find friends to say, Yes you ought to do that No I don't agree with that. I d I do not agree with that at all. I mean, there could I mean I think the House of Commons is now some way past in in my life in the sense I haven't been there since er June. I've no idea about the mood, I've no idea what people will think of er maybe large numbers Well one journalist said to me in Blackpool and perhaps this says it all, he said, Michael, you're the only really popular person here this week. You see they've nothing to be frightened of any more. But they're wrong. Ah but they Aren't they because you're saying, I'm still around No they may not be wr I I mean the the fact I'm around doesn't mean to say that I'm frightening. And I haven't changed. I've never been frightening. People have misjudged me. So you're not going to write your memoirs? You know, I I I'm I'm unhappy about this memoir business. I mean, they're self serving aren't they. And they're all to to put the person's point of view. And erm I I I find it I mean I'm not going to be sort of holier than thou about it all I mean, perhaps I myself might be tempted er one day. Erm but the idea that someone is putting it all down, all those private conversations, all those tensions, and it's all being recorded, not to present the historic truth, but to present the truth as the person wants history to read it. That's what always happens, they're self serving, self pleading, self justifying. Er perhaps they're helpful to the historians because they can then put them all in a room. Although I must say I I mean, one of the most fascinating pieces of politics I was ever involved in, was when I had to defend Mrs Thatcher over the Belgrano incident. And people were very kind about the quality off the speech that I made that that did it. I believed she was one hundred percent right. I believed then and I believe now. I must make that absolutely clear. But I had to get together in one room, the admirals, the intelligence people, the civil servants, all the people who'd played a critical role in advising her. It was only six months before, they couldn't agree. I wonder what each of their memoirs would look like. So what about mrs Thatcher's memoirs? The timing. Well I glanced Yeah, yeah. You know, look, I did a deal with Mrs Thatcher in nineteen eighty six, that I wouldn't open up many of these issues, and if she sticks to the deal, I'll stick to the deal. But she hasn't. As far as I'm concerned, personally, so far, she has. What was the deal then? That I wouldn't pursue the issues of nineteen eighty six. And I I haven't I with the No it's very simple, I left it to the select committees of the House of Commons. But we're talking about now, we're talking about Mrs Thatcher having written I deal a set of memoirs er critical of the Prime Minister while he's still in office . Erm er I'm she hasn't been critical of me. No but she's been critical of lots of other people. Well we don't know for sure yet about what she's said about you. Do we. If That's what I said, If she sticks to the deal, I'll stick to the deal. S But but y what what you're saying is that if someo Have you seen the book by the way? Have you read the book? Right . No. No. So if somewhere later on in the book she says, Michael Heseltine was a rotten old so and so. erm I'm sure we know that she thinks that, so that won't actually sort of provoke great reaction in me. What would it need to provoke you then? We'll just see. What about, what she has had to say about John Major? Well look, let's stand back. My interest is in the unity and success of the Conservative party. I don't want to see I I deeply deplore the divisions between left and right and the accentuation of often very phoney distinctions and mislabelling that goes on. It's a development that has grown in my political lifetime over erm I suppose twenty years now. And I don't like that aspect of politics, the divisiveness of it all, the personal sort of er attentions of it all. I know it's there, but I thought that John struck with me a very powerful note, when he said in his conference speech, I should share these things first in private. And I don't think it would do any good for me on this programme, or any of my colleagues, and of course the media will be now all over the place trying to achieve this. To get instant reactions, instant comments which will blow the thing up. But you're clearly unhappy about it. I you you you've made that quite clear . I I cannot I I cannot believe that it is w within the the standards of the conservative party that I joined, that this sort of diary writing, gossipy, pseudo history er is part of the convention. I think er one of the papers made this erm I think Alec Douglas Hulme er has set a sort of standard which I would admire. Er there were always memoirs, but I think that the nature of them has changed. And I and not sure it's Well I am sure that it's for the worse. It's causing damage? I don't think that the people come out of it well. Any of them? Including the authors? Er I think particularly the authors. Should there be er a change in the rules? What rules? That says, Well there aren't any rules at the moment obviously but but should there there are rules for for for civil servants, should there be rules for politicians? Well there are rules but cur That say curiously enough, they seem to have I mean I I have Yeah, but they have only to do with things like national security and and Yes but er I I think that erm er the little by little, the conventions have been stretched. And of course there's huge do you think they should be tightened up again? There's huge money. Dramatic money. You know. And and and and have no illusions, the money and the contents are very linked. That it's no use going round saying, Well here's my view of history as I wrote it. Er and it's factual it's it's analytical, it's it's erm devoid of the sort of bitchiness of politics. Cos you won't get enough money. You mean people spice them up Oh yeah, sure sure. You think Mrs Thatcher's done that? I have no idea. I wouldn't dream of making such an observation. But it sounds as though you suspect that. I I'm not going to be drawn even by your deft questioning Alright but the rules in this direction. But the rules ought to be changed. There ough the rules ought to be hardened up to stop this kind of thing going on I I I I I doubt if you could have rules. I doubt any more whether we live in the sort of society where you could have such rules. Since we're talking about rules, what about erm Mrs Thatcher, Lady Thatcher wanting to change the rules so that a sitting Prime Minister can't be challenged. Oh no certainly not. Certainly not. Certainly not. I w I I personally er made it clear at the time when they changed the rules er er fairly recently, that I didn't think they should. Erm I think that er erm politicians understand full well the nature of the profession in which they're involved and the parliamentary party is erm more than able to exercise a proper judgement, er I don't think there's any case at all for er changing th I don't think there was a case for changing the rules and I don't think there is a case for changing the rules today. So you're out of step with people like Douglas Hurd and Norman Fowler? Well I mean I you know the let's have a discussion. I don't think it's not a not a complete You can't get a headline, Tories divided over rule changes. You know it's I don't know, it's an interesting No no I don't believe that. I think it's perfectly reasonable that the parliamentary party should have those sort of powers. And I'll tell you why I think it's reasonable, Because they would only use them seriously in extreme circumstances. doesn't matter if I'm not going to name any names but I mean I've seen some people who it's been suggested might stand two hoots of a flick of a finger whether someone of the sort that I've seen mentioned, stood or not. You are Are you thinking of Mrs Theresa Gorman there ? I'm not going to I'm not I'm not going to be drawn into discussing the names of any particular person, I'm merely saying it would be of no consequence. It would be a joke. Erm anyway I don't think it's gonna happen and I don't think it should happen. Let me make that absolutely clear. But nor do I think that you should somehow try to cosset the position of the leader of the party. In the extreme circumstances. Cos otherwise, I can tell you what the alternative is, the alternative is the men in grey suits which is a equally arbitrary process and it can as actually concentrate power in the hands of a very small number of people o sometimes perhaps unrepresentative of the parliamentary party. Is John Major unassailable now? Yes I think er I mean my own view is that he well er erm lead the party at the next election and he'll win it. Er w I think there's a there's a desperately boring feature about the present political circumstances from the media's point of view. And the more you stand back and look at it, the clearer it is. Every political leader of an advanced democracy, is in deep trouble, whether it's in America, Japan, France, Germany or Britain. They're in deep political trouble because the the electorate is simply distanced from the messages they have to put over. For very obvious reasons. The electorate is going through a very difficult period. The economy has got huge problems associated with it. People's lives are are profoundly affected. So when a politician comes and says, Well it's gonna get better, we've gotta try harder, this is the policy we're gonna pursue. They're all saying,it's not doing me any good. And it's not until that economic climate changes that people are l are able to to relate to what the politicians say. There's nothing new in any of this, I remember nineteen eighty one. But the media can't say that, they can't interpret that because what they've got to do is sell to their readers, a story which the readers want to hear. And so the media are constantly giving the impression that there's something that the British government should be doing. Whilst there's a world economic malaise. Not sure you can blame the media altogether, I noticed you said there in almost these words er, John Major will the lead the Conservative party into the next election and the Conservatives will win. You said exactly that I quote word for word in November nineteen ninety and a week later what happened? You challenged Mrs Thatcher and brought her down. Well it's interesting that er I mean these quotations get It must be very clever research. Well you offered it. Yeah well okay, well I haven't I mean, I I did I did actually think that Mrs Thatcher would lead us into the election. Er I thought that it was wrong that she should, as everybody knows. Er and I think frankly erm we won the election because she was not leader of the party. That was my view and still my view and I think John Major fought a very distinguished campaign er against the pundits it has to be said. er I hope I did everything I could to help. As I did Mrs Thatcher. Nobody worked harder in the nineteen eighty seven general election than I did. Yeah but the point I'm making is that you thought that would happen then. You say it may happen it is going to happen now. Why should we believe it now any more than we believed it then . Well I I I mean there i thinking back, I didn't think at that stage, I hope I'm right about this,th that I had any idea that Geoffrey Howe was going to resign. I never had the slightest intention of challenging Mrs Thatcher. There was never my my view and and one day I shall if I ever get round to it I might set this all out. My view was Write your memoirs? Yeah. In nineteen eighty six, my view was a very very clear one. To survive. I mean nobody thought I could do that. I mean not many people who'd clashed with mrs thatcher did survive. But I did, that was my determination. John Major is beset with problems, you wouldn't Yeah. argues that. In fact you said er again if if I may offer you one of your quotes erm, If you have back benchers who won't support you, that limits governments abilities to take decisions. you said that a few months ago. Since Yeah. then he's lost er you've lost another seat so his majority is even smaller, it's down from nineteen to seventeen. So his er abilities to take decision are even er take decisions are even more limited now than they were then aren't they. He is in greater trouble now than he was the for all sorts of reasons . Well no that doesn't follow. No no. Er What I said then was true. But it doesn't follow that he's in greater trouble now because Smaller majority. Er no. It isn't a small majority in any serious sense of majority . Smaller majority. It is only small because a very limited number of Conservatives on the back benches are not totally reliable on too many occasions. And it tends to be I'm sad to have to say it, it tends to be a limited number of colleagues who are totally I think, removed from the mainstream of what the majority off us want to see, who are to prepared to withhold their voted in the House of Commons. And I think that there's going to come a point. D I think John er put this question fairly to conference, If the Tories want to behave like the Labour party did, then we'll pay an electoral price for it. I I'm not against I can't be against the right of a c of a member of parliament to withhold their vote from their government. I have done it on about three occasions in a third of a century. And I wouldn't change that vote and I respect people who are prepared to do it. It requires guts and integrity. I'm not against that. But for the sort of College Green psychology and the and the For people who don't understand, College Green is the bit of greenery outside Westminster where people rush out to be interviewed on camera . The dash The the the sort of headline dash out of the House of Commons, the moment the news breaks, to get on television with some quick quote. And then to withhold one's vote as with almost a matter of habit and routine, that cannot be in the best interests of the Conservative party. And you have to realize, none of us are there cos we've got happy smiling faces. We're there because the Conservative party chose us, and put us there. Yeah but And so we have obligations to them. But you're not there you're not in parliament to represent the Conservative party, you're in parliament to represent your constituents. I I think you've got to just look at that constitutional concept. The constituency that chose you was the Conservative party. That that chose you. But you represent every individual in that constituency . The the the no no no no You were chosen by the Conservative party. You then stand for election. The reason why you're elected is because a sufficient number of people wanted a Conservative government. Now it's perfectly true, they understand I hope rightly, within the framework and philosophy of the Conservative party, that you have to respect the integrity of the individual. But it doesn't mean to say that you are sending somebody who says he's a Conservative, going to support a Conservative government, and the moment he gets there is to be found all over the place. Yeah but if you feel strongly about a particular issue, erm Elizabeth Peacock, during the er coal pits erm dispute when she was very very upset at what your You were planning to do, closing down all those coal mines and and she went public about it. She she it was for her a matter of conscience. And she was representing the interests of her constituency. You're not saying she shouldn't have been allowed to do that, she should have gone to John No I'm Major quietly or to you quietly in some back room and said, Look I'm a bit bothered about this . No. I've made it clear I I personally like virtually all colleagues at some stage voted against my party. I and that will always be a right and proper thing for a member of parliament to do. But it has to be done with great care, infrequently It is if you like, a nuclear deterrent in that sense. And I don't quarrel with Elizabeth Peacock who I like and admire and get on very well with. And actually have been to support on many occasions in her constituency. Erm but but I I'm not think of of Elizabeth as a matter of fact. And there are some colleagues who are today, much more lax with their loyalties. And And I mean you yourself, you know, during the Westland you you you left a cabinet meeting, apparently Mrs Thatcher thought you were going to the loo and you went on television to say, I'm resigning because I think she's got it wrong over Westland. She didn't think I was going to the loo. Well so we were told. I dare say that's what you were told. It's not what she thought. Did you say to her, I'm going out to re I'm going out and I may be gone for a long time. I if I remember correctly those are words that led to the death of a very distinguished explorer. I had no intention of dying the political death. Er the erm er fact of the matter was that er er as has been recorded by those less emotionally charged at that moment, I didn't flounce out of the cabinet. I had made it quite clear But you went on telly minutes later. Oh there was a television camera as you left Downing Street . You went to a press conference. Er that was four o'clock in the afternoon. No no I mean the the I mean when I've g been drawn er down a road I don't intend to go No because the the point I'm trying to make is that it is unrealistic surely for the leader of the party to say to his MPs who aren't delegates after all, but who represent the interests of their constituencies, Shut up, come to me privately if you have any concerns. That's not realistic is it . I I I think he said, First, to me privately. In other words, you talk it through, you try to resolve it. Not dash for the television cameras. That was the point that I heard him make in Brighton. And and even there will come a time after the private dialogue, where he people have the right. I let me give you an example, I've always respected erm Teddy Taylor and John Biffen who have taken the extreme view on Europe. Er I think they genuinely believe their case, it's not a case that I believe, but I I've always genuinely respected them for the case they take. Er so I I don't find it in my in myself to condemn people who as Conservatives take a different view to myself. But there has to be a degree of discretion, a degree of responsibility. And you cannot have a situation where the the sort of almost the norm is, Any difficult decision the government is gonna have to take, there'll be a dozen colleagues who say, not for us. I mean I I just do not really understand whether people fully realize the gravity of the economic situation that we face. We're gonna have a very difficult set of decisions to take, they're gonna be tough, there's no other government would take these decisions. And there is a division within the party isn't there, a real ideological divide within the party over how to deal with that, whether to raise taxes, whether to cut spending further? Well this is the what I keep reading about the right left divide. Well I didn't use that phrase but First first No you didn't I mean no There's no reason why we shouldn't. Er every party is a coalition. It consists of a whole range of interest groups, a whole range of people with great integrity, but approaching politics from a different point of view. And the only basis upon which you can l lead a party of that sort, is to find a pivot th where you around which you can coalesce. if ever you get to the stage where the left of the party or the right of the party, either extreme wing, feel that they've got such power, that they can pull the whole thing their way, the danger is that the bits at the other end will snap and that of course is the disunity danger which had absolutely devastated the Labour party, where the left did exactly that and the moderate centre That's if you can call it that, snapped off. For the Conservative party which is in essence a party of power, huge historic perspective, huge experience of power, ever to get itself in a position where it's perceived to be struggling to the point of self destruction, would have its political consequences and they would be dire. Let's look not so much at the left right divide, but but at the tone of the party. Some people say that since you've been away, and the conference illustrated this quite dramatically, particularly the fringe meetings. The tone of the party has changed. On Europe for instance, we've had er Mr Major telling the Europeans to get the your tractors off our lawns. David Hunt calling Delors a jumped-up socialist bureaucrat. That sort off the language, the tone seems to have changed, to have got harder. On Europe first. Well Er I I hear what you say, I my views on Europe are very simple. It's impossible to overstate the economic relationship we now have with Europe. Two th nearly two thirds of our trade goes with Europe. I don't mind the sort of the use of language that gives this or that impression if that's what contemporary politics demands, I'm as guilty of that as er the next man. But if we create a psychology in this country where to the men and women who earn the crust upon which we depend, our business community, are switched off to the significance of Europe, there's only one people who'll suffer and it is us. And when Peter Lilley says for instance I am not prepared to yeah yes, but you will not get me to to separate myself from my colleagues . Half Well let me let me finish the the quote because Well there are but but but but Well alright but but Peter Lilley is saying, is suggesting in a in a speech at a party conference that half the population of continental Europe are scroungers. I mean one wonders how that helps this kind of partnership. That that you obviously think is so important. Well I'm not prepared to become involved in er er discussing the speeches which I didn't hear or er which may well be out of context or anything of that sort. I'm not prepared to do that. No no but John, frankly Oh come on, you heard that. You know that wasn't out of context. It simply it simply doesn't serve a purpose for me to allow that division to open up. I will only use my words to describe my circumstance. And I know that whatever the rhetoric, Mrs Thatcher used all the rhetoric, nobody took us further into Europe than Mrs Thatcher. All these regulations that we're now having to I'm having to with expert er help from my colleague er Neil Hamilton, having to look at and redo, do you know where they all came from? Most of them came from the single European act. From the Cofield agenda. That Mrs Thatcher Which which Mrs Thatcher rightly committed us to and rightly whipped us through the house And and it and it Right, so we're to ignore all these things that we hear at the conference. There is no difference between the the endless bad mouthing between local and central government, as one tries to blame the other. And central government trying to blame the Europeans. The fact of the matter is, every directive that comes out of Europe, comes with the agreement of the British government. That's where it comes from. It comes to us, we have to put it through the House of Commons. And often we are the people who embroider it and overbear it with all the complications ent that that are that are part of it. And do you know where a lot of the the erm the directives from Brussels come from? They come from British pressure groups, who go to Brussels with their particular case and argue in Brussels to start the process of creating these regulations. Alright, let's lets look at some something else where people will say, are saying, the party has shifted, clearly clearly shifted towards the right. And that's social policy. Erm and and I know you I'm not expecting you to comment on your colleagues, but let me quote something else that Peter Lilley said, The massive expansion of the welfare state since the war, has not been accompanied by any diminution of social problems. Any diminution of social problems. That's sending quite a signal isn't it. Well I'd go further. They're worse. So poverty is worse? Er not relative not relative poverty because obviously the tide of prosperity has brought up the living standards of er the western world. It's better not to have to have pensions than not to have pensions, surely not . But but but look at the look. Oh no no no oh no that th er I that is not in er what I was talking about was the social values, er not the existence of the welfare state. That has I mean most of the welfare state has been er it'll either created or extended by Conservative government so But Beveridge achieved nothing? Er no, Beveridge did, but he never intended to achieve what we've got. Er I mean, you will know that I wrote a book called No time for Ostriches in when I was on the back benches, in favour of work fare. Er I I think that with three million people out of work, we have an unemployment problem which creates erm a a disadvantage group particularly in some of the stress urban areas where we have to look at more radical solutions to what is basically the payment of cash for nothing in return. Now I have said that, it's not government policy, perhaps I'm stretching over the bounds of saying it, but er those these ideas are around. But clearly, what you have said in the past has led us to believe that you think self help does not solve all the problems, the government now seems to be telling us You can't how can how can you talk about self help solving all the problems when you've got an aging population who'll never work again. I'm talking about people who are already retired. There's absolutely no point in saying to some sixty five year old or or seventy year old who's living on a state pension in a council house, What you've got to do is help yourself. What's it mean? So the government must help? The state must help ? Well what c what what a what does the language of self help mean to a seventy year old living on a state pension in a council house? What does it mean? And unless you answer that question, you're just pandering to people's emotions. Now if you say to me, this is I go back to my work fare, If you're talking about the the young kids of of sixteen or who've left school, haven't got a job and they say, Well I want my my welfare benefit. You are entitled to say, Well okay we understand you've got a problem, we know that there's an economic er er difficulty across the world, what are you gonna give us in exchange? And Beveridge would have been perfectly happy with that question. Peter Lilley wouldn't. Well Oth Alright, I won't use the name Peter Lilley if you don't if you prefer I didn't. Others in the cabinet would not. Well s s but why so why should So many of those speeches Blackpool Why should we be worried about the existence of a debate in a cabinet. I mean this is So n I remember, I used to go to NATO alli er er er di discussions as defence ministers. And people would sort of say, There's a division in NATO. as though it was a crime. What was it, it was an alliance of democratic nations. If you can't have a debate there, where can you? Well if If you can't have a debate in cabinet, what's the point off cabinet? I y c Yes, debates in cabinet perhaps, but we're not talking about debates in cabinet, we're talking about speeches made at Blackpool or at fringe meetings of Blackpool, which lead people to believe that the government is moving substantially towards the right. Now that's significant, that isn't just a this isn't just a debate about some vague ideological nicety, how many angels on the head of a pin? This is fundamental to the way British politics is going . Well you should y I I I er these la these these labels are so difficult to fit because if you say, Moving to the right, you then have to show me what policies the government is pursuing and you'll probably find that I either play the part in thinking off argu arguing for them some years before some of my colleagues. Well I'm talking about policies that haven't yet been instituted. I mean Sure. we've got we've got Michael Howard now talking about, Maybe it's better if er if the illegitimate children of single mums erm are adopted, rather than stay with their mothers. Well I mean that is i i something that well to the best off my knowledge, the government has not announced or taken any sort of decision on. But the Home Secretary is saying, you know, This is something we will think about . Well I you'll forgive me the disadvantage, I'm not trying to cop out, but the disadvantage of not having been immediately involved is that I haven't seen that quotation from Michael . Alright but if but you would not approve of that kind of language of that kind of er expression of government intent if that's what it was . I I I I would I think that would be something that would be controversial. Er I would like to k to know more about what Michael is saying before I got involved in any discussion of that. And when Mrs Thatcher, when Lady Thatcher, talks about the Thatcher inheritance, that much more sincure being that much more secure . I I have always been worried about the personalization of er what I believe is the great traditions in the Tory party. I know I've worked for Churchill, Eden, MacMillan, Hulme, Heath, Thatcher, we never had this personalization of the great traditions until very recently. And frankly I think it and I hope to God that John I d I know he doesn't want to see it happen to him, I hope to God it doesn't. Because it it's it's it's a I mean frankly it it gives the impression that this remarkable political force which has governed a democracy longer than any other political f party in history, has somehow or other created a new philosophy in the last ten years. Mi What have we been doing all this time? Michael Heseltine I'll have to stop you there, thank you very much indeed. Thank you. Michael Heseltine talking to me a little earlier today. And now to the government's plan to sell off British Rail. Before the summer holidays, the House of Lords carried an amendment moved by Lord Peyton a former Conservative minister, which allows British rail to bid against private companies for franchises to operate services. the transport secretary John Macgregor has been totally opposed to that because it would mean nothing changing in effect. B R would still run B R. However, as David Walter discovered, he may not have enough troops in the Commons to reverse that amendment. The Gatwick express, on the fast track to the private sector. today this becomes the first railway shadow franchise, its operations hived off into a separate company ready to be sold. These plans are running to schedule, the rest of rail privatization is not. The problem is Lord Peyton's amendment in the Lords last Summer. That allowed British Railways itself to bid for franchises, something the original bill rules out. The government fears that it wrecks the bill, that b R with an unfair advantage over its competitors, could keep lines like this in its clutches. But lord Peyton has many fellow travellers in the Commons. Since we had the debates in June, we've had the unfortunate experience er of stagecoach. Which basically found it couldn't make a railway service run and dropped it. We've had the winter timetable which er proposes some quite serious cuts in services, and we've had of course, the constant rumour off fairs increases. So for all those reasons, I think my colleagues may be more inclined to go for a cautious approach that's enshrined in the Peyton approach, than they were back in er June. I think the government should slow down on all its activities at the present time and concentrate on getting the economy right, and everything else put on the back burner. And that should apply also w with the railways. There's no great enthusiasm in in this country for railway privatization. The railways must be kept together say on the on the Peyton amendment and they could raise money on the private market. but it keeps together The idea that they're going to broke up br broken up into competing er items, worries people in my constituency and it also alarms me. Tories who feel rebellious about the railways, may not have to push their protest to the point of voting against the government. A humiliating defeat which he suffered at the hands of Lord Peyton in the house of Lords, has concentrated John Macgregor's mind. And he's promised to look again at the case for allowing British Rail to bid for franchises. The rebels have been conducting intensive negotiations with him behind the scenes. And they're hopeful that he will give way. Sweden's railways provide a model of the kind of system that Britain could have if the Peyton amendment stays in the railway privatization bill. This line, winding its way between the isolated communities of Erstogoetsland Southeast of Stockholm, was one of twenty one regional railways offered for sale five years ago. A private operator won the first five franchises, but after that, the state company S J won all but one of the remaining sixteen. On this line, they beat off two private sector competitors. This line goes to Linnchurping seat of the regional government of Erstogoetsland Which had the task of awarding the franchise. They chose the state railways because theirs was the lowest bid. they gave them a three year trial period, to see how attractive they could make the service. We had to see what happened to these railways er is more people going to er to go by train, or are less going to go. And er we got the results now and er we more than doubled it. it's more than double as much people who is today going by train than before. Swedish railways are among the world's market leaders. Their pride and joy is the X two thousand, a tilting passenger train that operates at high speed on conventional track. Britain abandoned a similar project eleven years ago. in the five years since they were first subjected to competition, Swedish Railways have transformed both their efficiency and their performance. Some experts believe that British Rail would respond to competition in the same way. It is possible to consider a situation where most franchises remain being run by groups of B R managers and a few franchises are run by private sector companies. The advantage of that would be that if the private sector does have things to offer in the way of better labour practices, better marketing ideas, then these will be copied by the B R system and in Sweden it's quite evident that although very few franchises have gone to the private sector, it has had a quite drastic effect on the way in which the state railway goes about its business. Certainly Swedish Railways have taken to acting as toughly as any enterprise in the private sector. While improving the quality of their service to passengers, they've cut their staff by thirty percent. Since they were first expose to competition. The customers enjoy all the benefits of private sector efficiency from a state company. We have restructured the whole company and we are working exactly as a private company. And we have also done introduced the same working methods er as you can find er outside in the private industry. Cos there are people in Britain who simply don't believe that the public sector can be as efficient as the private sector. I think we can show that this is possible. Er and as you said, the only goal we had to start with was that we should turn the big losses into profit. This was going on. And this was just enough for us, coming from the industry. in Sweden, introducing competition's had a dramatic effect on the state run railway system. The experience here suggests that a publicly owned operator can provide a better and more efficient service than private enterprise, given the right conditions. And the same could apply in Britain. At least a growing number of Tory MPs are coming round to the idea. The key question is how many Conservative m Ps are on board for the Peyton amendment. The Tory whips are busy counting heads to work out whether there'll have to be a government retreat. For a start they can't guarantee the Ulster Unionists'll be on the government tickets this time. The bill could create an precedent for Irish Rail from the Republic to buy Northern Ireland Railways. As for Tory M Ps, some of them prefer to remain anonymous, but On the Record has now found twenty one members who've told the government, they back Peyton. On top of that, there's the Buckingham MP George Walden who's likely to abstain on the whole bill. And there are enough Tory back benchers who's names are in the open to force the government to compromise. I know that certain of my er West Country colleagues er are uneasy about the bill. I I detect a very considerable unease in the Home Counties. Where as I say, the railway is a very very important issue. Erm and I do not detect talking to colleagues say on the right of the party, any great enthusiasm for this measure in the way it's presently er designed. So I think that er we are in quite a strong position. you only need a a handful of colleagues with strong views er opposing an issue you immediately create a cliffhanger. There's very little that the that the chief whip can do to avoid that situation. On a matter of importance but divided opinion, like privatization. But I think there is room for compromise here. I'd be surprised at the end of the day if er we didn't find a solution that would enable John Macgregor to go forward. The privatization bill will probably have to go back to the upper house, whatever happens in the Commons. Lord Peyton has the right to stick to his guns and he's disinclined to give in after the majority he won last time. His amendment was carried by thirty eight votes. They have voted, contents, one hundred and fifty, not contents, one hundred and twelve. So the contents have it. As far as I know, the all the people who voted er for the amendment, will continue to do so and a great many of of those who voted against it and were quite unaw were not at the time a fully aware of what is proposed, er may well change their mind. So I think the government would have quite a task on it's hands. There's certainly a lot of passion about this in the house of lords. Er the House of lords is not a particularly passionate place but er nevertheless it is capable of strong feelings and er I don't think it it expressed a fairly clear opinion on this occasion. Er and I think it's likely to hold to it. Back at Victoria, passengers who want to travel to Gatwick, now have a choice of fare. On the Gatwick express, there's the luxury price. Eight sixty please. Alternatively they can travel on the slightly slower Network Southeast for only seven pounds fifty. Tory loyalists argue that the Peyton amendment would jeopardize this sort of competition, because it would deter enterprising B R managers from leaving the public sector to stage management buy-outs. I don't think that I could ever support the Peyton amendment, the amendment in the house of lords, which if I get it right, would permit B R as an organization to bid for franchises. I don't mind managers getting together and having in a sense management buy- outs. Teaming up with private individuals to bid for franchises. But iff you actually allow B R as an organization to bid, I think it's making a nonsense of privatization because you're saying in essence there isn't anything wrong with B R management at the moment and we'll let them take over the network. And in that case why, why privatize? All the same, MPs from the right of the party are boarding the Peyton train along with left wing Tories. if John Major intended the bill to convince the right of his radical instincts, he may have misjudged them. I don't think rail privatization has ever been really debated inside the conservative party. Most people prefer privatization on the right of the party, where I stand, but it's not something that we get up early in the morning and actually pray for at every day. And I think at the present time, all of us on the right are more concerned about getting the economy right and cutting government expenditure that carrying on with er schemes of a privatization that might or might not succeed. What do you think the position of the transport secretary would be in the House of Commons if he was forced to drop what is after all a very major plank of his programme? Well er they would er Knowing the House of Commons as we do, there would inevitable be some catcalls and some hoots of derision. But I don't think go governments or ministers should be deterred by them. Indeed I think that the the the present secretary of state for whom I have great respect and regard, I think he would be very well advised to think again, because I think that the temporary derision that he would meet in the House of Commons would be nothing as compared with the the er the wounding that he will sustain later if and when things go wrong with these proposals. At the end of September, a flight across the channel achieved a notable victory on the issue of airline subsidies for the transport secretary, John Macgregor. success for his team on the railways bill, may prove more elusive. A climb-down wouldn't be easy. They've already spent two hundred million pounds preparing for privatization. But with the government under fire from so many directions, the pressure to give way on the Peyton amendment, could be difficult to resist. I'm not sure about a U-turn on a railway line, more of a shunt perhaps. However, now for the return of our resident sage, John Cole. So it's unity then? Well only up to a point Lord Copper. returning from my prolonged Summer break, I was initially almost as sceptical as the Tory faithful at Blackpool that John Major faces a leadership crisis. And the ecstatic reception for his speech, might confirm that view among the politically innocent at least. So might the way in which this week has gradually marginalized Margaret Thatcher. A senior minister, looking at the vast new platform which turned the Winter Gardens into a television set, suggested that it really ought to contain a pantheon for past leaders. Ted ought to have been there years ago, he said, and now it's time for Margaret to be elevated. We could venerate them as ancestors. A bit Chinese? I ventured. No no, he answered, this is Maoist ancestor worship, just the Tory variety. The crisis only seems to eased because of ruthless conference management and because Tories have looked over the precipice and seen the disastrous consequences of disunity. At least some of them saw that. Others on the right saw the fearsome prospect of a Kenneth Clarke leadership. Clarke himself believes the party simply couldn't bear another leadership contest coming so soon after the Thatcher dismissal. Tories are not much given to Freudian analysis, but one minister said, the party remained psychotic after the trauma of three years ago. The victor, presumably Ken Clarke, would be like a Goth or Vandal marching into the smoking ruins of Rome. But what if John Major's party does badly in the European and council elections next year. This Loyalist replied, Ah well if John were blamed for that, he'd be in trouble. Another major enemy said, with ostentatious sadness, that he feared once the public decided a Prime Minister was not up to the job, he'd find it all but impossible to eradicate that impression. One insider speculated whether if party opinion remained against him, Major would like the more sporting of his cricketing heros, walk from the wicket, even before the umpire's dismissive finger went up. Those who know him best think, he's more of a fighter than that. The received wisdom is that if the leadership crisis does erupt, it'll happen this time next year. Meanwhile prospective runners move with studied casualness into the saddling enclosure. Clarke's the unchallenged hero of one nation Tories. Michael Howard, the senior right winger now, might not have as much support as the more philosophical Michael Portillo. Two junior ministers complained to me of Portillo's ideological zeal in cabinet committee. When others urge caution for electoral reasons, he argues that it's not worth being in government if you can't do the things you believe in. The minister himself recognizes this portrait but delights in the political clout he has as the treasury man on many such committees, able to range over the whole field of policy. But Portillo whose Spanish name meaning the narrow gate, is very citable to a man responsible for sanctioning public spending bids, would need a department of his own before he became a serious leadership candidate. Oddly, if the P M risks giving him one in the next reshuffle, it might be a sign that his own confidence is returning. Ministers and whips are worried what the mood of their MPs will be when they get back to Westminster. Most fears centre on whether the Maastricht rebels and populists like the Wintertons, Tony Marlowe Good morning, everyone. I think we have nearly a full house but there may be one or two more people to come. Erm taking part within the presentation this morning ah are Frank who is the fr managing director of Pearsons, and James er, who's the finance director. Er we're going to take questions at the end er the camera there is for internal use only and at the end we'll hand out copies of the slides to anyone who wants them. Our profits are disappointingly small in relation to, er er, the, er first half of last year er then, we had buoyant conditions and we made more money than we ever had before. Recession had already promised a slow start to this year er, but in January when worry about the Gulf actually gave way to the war itself erm, the trading climate which was already weak erm worsened still further. Er, consumer confidence fell away and U K consumers kept more of their cash in their pockets er, in fact, erm, they saved over two and a half billion pounds more in the first quarter of ninety one than they had in the same er, quarter of last year. One immediate casualty of the change in conditions was advertising. Recruitment adversiding advertising for example virtually ground to a halt as businesses started to shed er, people, rather than to look for them. So what happened to our trading profit? In this analysis er, if you set aside the effect of our sale of Elsivir er, the variance was forty nine million seventy percent of which relates to the U K. The drop in profits from our newspapers was the biggest and probably the most widely expected a substantial proportion of their costs are fixed and, er, they therefore are particularly sensitive to, er changes in volume. Fine china and investment banking inevitably er, er er er er suffered from the economic conditions so did entertainment er, which also brought two extra burdens er, firstly the er marked reduction in tourism and, er, for the first time, a three and a half million pound er, bill for Alton Towers' loss-making winter quarter which I think we, we've flagged er, quite consistently. After newspapers, books showed the largest decline er, and the fifteen million variance is shared roughly one fifth by Addison Wesley and two fifths apiece by Penguin and Longman. Two of the abiding characteristics of these businesses are first that like newspapers a high proportion of their costs are fixed and secondly, unlike newspapers er, their main selling season is in the second half of the year. Outside AW's erm, specialists books er, er, markets er, book sales have been almost universally slow there were very high returns as book sellers everywhere reacted to reduced er, demand by replacing or winding down their stock. This particularly affected Penguin substantially increasing its spec i its expected first half loss. Penguin also incurred losses of two million on Smithmark its American remainder book businesses er, before selling it. Longman the least seasonally biased of the three struggled to break even in the first half and this removed the normal pattern of Longman's half-year profits helping to offset the first half losses of the other two businesses but before we get too depressed er I point out that Addison Wesley s sales were up by eleven percent and the size of the first half loss reflects the company's decision to gear up in advance er, for what we w believe will be a very strong er, second er, half performance. Er, overall I think it's right to say that we're disappointed by these results but we're not downhearted. All of our businesses have maintained or improved their market shares as managers we concentrate on the full year rather on either half and because of our seasonal bias er, those of you who've been, er, to our interim presentations before er, will remember that without fail I tell you our results at the half-way stage are not a clear guide to the outcome of the year as a whole. The major part of our profits are made in the second half er, and this year er will certainly be no exception. To underline the point I thought I'd show you this four year average one thing that the exercise shows is that between them our book, entertainment and fine china businesses normally account for about seven percent of Pearson's annual profit in their first half and for about thirty three percent of our profit in the full year. This year their net first half contribution was negative which will strongly exaggerate the seasonal bias towards the second half er, conditions will still be far from ideal but with the Gulf factor out of the way and some visible improvement in our overseas markets, particularly North America we think the trading environment will be broadly equivalent to that of the second half of last year. Now, er, before I hand over to Frank er, a word about the dividend er, in recent years we've paid an interim dividend which was half the total of the previous year's dividends and so, er, had a built-in increase. This year we thought it right to reserve our judgment er, until the end of the year so we matched last year's interim. Frank. Well as Michael says, we're not proud of the results er, and we're not going to try and dress them up, Michael hasn't tried to do that and I certainly don't intend to. But nevertheless I do want to er, bring home to you the underlying strength of our businesses there's no question, we're very wel very well faced for, for an upturn. But before doing that er, you may reasonably ask what action we've taken er, during this year when it's been such a difficult year. Do you remember at the announcement of last year's results we erm we mentioned that we were concentrating on four themes one's cost reduction er driving for cash erm, improving our market share and investing for the future. Starting with cost reduction any cost reduction programme always involves a lot of redundancy and, and this is no exception and from the slide you'll see that we've er we've had a staff reduction er, from the the plan for this year of one thousand and thirty three er and that's the, that will save us in a full year something like fifteen point nine, sixteen million pounds. This year er, there's been a negative benefit in the first half of two million and there'll be a positive benefit in the second half of two million. Incidentally, it doesn't include the disposal of Smithmark We've also er we've also gone in for other cost reduction exercises, for instance at er Dalton with a review of warehousing and distribution er, we should save about a million pounds in a full year and we've been ramming home to our chief executives the need for annual payroll reviews to be geared to the profitability of the company rather than t rather than to the rate of inflation er, or even, er in, even the market place. Driving for cash er well an indication of how strongly we, we've been driving for cash is that er the reduction i in er operating cash flow is less than the reduction in profit. We've been telling our chief executives that even though you can't get the sales then at least try to work on your working capital, try and get your working capital er, ratio down. And there's been quite a bit of success in in that area both of the newspaper companies er, are doing better than last year and er Longmans for instance expect er expect their operating cash flow erm their working capital rather to be lower this year than last year by by year end. Erm improving market share, well all of our businesses have improved their market share during this recession and I'll, I'll mention them as I go through the individual companies. Investing for the future although, although we've been keen to drive for cash er, we really wanted to, to use the benefit of having a strong balance sheet and so where investment has seemed sensible and sound, we've made those investments, of course we've put er, cash in the B Sky B er and we've also invested further in the er Spanish group, the Recollectors Group taking our stake in expansion, adding some cash and getting a stake in the bigger bigger grouping. If we look at the individual businesses there we er see the individual profits. If we start with the Financial Times well by their standards it's not a good result er, but again let's get it in context, the newspaper's trading margin is just, just under ten percent, it's er it's about nine point six percent er, and on the circulation front they've done well in market share terms where we've marginally improved our our market share in the quality market. Er in Europe we've gone up six percent in circulation and in Japan we're on target there and under budget. In advertisement, er in the advertisement volume area, again we've increased our market share amongst the qu er, quality dailies a marginal increase er but it's nationally we've done very well and for instance in Europe we're sixteen percent head, ahead of last year in volume and revenue terms. On the cost side, apart from the redundancies I mentioned, well including the redundancies I mentioned er, the non volume related costs are only three percent ahead of the previous year. East India Dock is now er, virtually fully utilized printing the Basildon papers in the daytime and the Financial Times at night and the Observer on Saturday night and we've got high hopes of getting the contract to print the Japanese er, European edition of the Japanese daily and that, that will fill the morning slot so that really will be er, great utilization of, of that er installation. has been affected on the revenue front mainly in the medical publishing but to some extent in the erm in the financial sector although we're still absolutely market dominant in that sector but we've increased the circulation there by ten percent. The F T magazines have all increased their market share and Profile, our electronic, er erm, information business has grown in revenue terms by twelve percent. Turning to Westminster Press the cost Westminster Press in a full year er, will amount to three point eight million pounds and er . all of our paid fors have er, done very well this year in circulation terms all but two of them have increased their circulation in the first half, despite quite high price rises, for instance the York county newspaper, the weekly there, we have a daily but the weekly there went up by five P and the weekly in Bath where again we have a daily that went up by six P. And every single Westminster Press centre has increased its market share. Turning to er books and starting with Longman. Well there as I mentioned a staff reduction of a hundred and ninety two and significant er staff reduct er cost reduction in other, other areas we, we analyze every single er publishing unit and where the erm where they were marginally profitable or less than marginally profitable er we've taken appropriate action. And as I mentioned earlier Longman expect the cash flow this year to be better than last year despite the the reduction in profits. Last year I told you Alhambra er, was receiving the treatment. This year it's on profit, on budget at the half-way stage and I expect it to be on budget by the end of the year. We mentioned a small acquisition in Japan last year,medi on the medical side of Longman, P P S K K it cost us about four million pounds and we were reckoning on a profit of about half a million a year pleased to say that its er, its profit looks like getting to a million pounds by the year end. And English Language Teaching at Longman which is of course the biggest er biggest profit contributor erm their blueprint sale is expected to exceed nine hundred thousand this year. Addison Wesley our American college publisher as Michael mentioned th at the half-way stage their sales were eleven percent ahead of er, last year, and you may remember last year they had record sales and record profits and er they're forecasting er something like fourteen percent a head by the year end in sales terms and they are expecting to maintain their their margins and last year was a very good margin indeed. Once again there's been great emphasis on cash maintenance. Penguin the staff reduction there doesn't look particularly er high but then we were reducing staff there last year and we've er, we've disposed of Smithmark and the travel guides er, the warehouse and distribution system is working very well and we've been adding distribu distribution clients there er the autumn list looks very strong indeed particularly in the U S especially and er, we've shipped er, over two million of Stephen King's latest book and there's another one due in the autumn and we're expecting to ship about two and a half million of er of, of that one. Er in the U K we've held our market position and it's been a a pretty desperate market we were one of the few if not the only book seller who refused to er to yield better discount terms er, on the threat of er every, every book seller was every er publisher was threatened with erm not being stocked unless we gave bigger discounts. We held our position against that and I'm pleased to say er, we will continue, we will continue to be stocked. Er our distribution system has got great press recently and it's regarded as one of the three best distribution systems in the U K. One of the things we're trying to do is to pay less for our books, it's very easy to pay very very fancy prices for, for er mid-range authors and for them not to earn out, so we're looking for much cheaper books. A good example is Dances With Wolves which cost us four thousand as a and has already sold over a hundred and twenty thousand copies. Penguin continues to try and develop its merchandising and is quite successful and the latest success is to get the Flower Fairies adopted by Marks and Spencers for their sleepwear range which will also be marketed in the U S A as well. Federal and Capital is a small er but high quality er new er newsletter business in the States and er it's done very well indeed to improve its profits. On the entertainments side er, last year of course we had that one-off benefit with not having to absorb the first quarter's loss and this year the er first quarter was pretty disastrous because we had an er er an er amalgamation of, of A the Gulf War B the recession and in London I R A bombing and that really stopped tourists coming to London from overseas and from the rest of the U K. But I'm pleased to say that er we, we're coming back very strongly and for instance in July at virtually all of our centres attendances were either up to last year very nearl very nearly up to last year or ahead of last year and er at Chessington our revenue was thirteen and a half percent up on last year which I think justifies our investment there. Some of our competitors in the north have been er really struggling and erm offering four pounds off on a seven pound fifty entrance fee so bearing that in mind we're v v very confident that we've im improved our market share in that area too. We opened our Amsterdam, our new exhibition in Amsterdam in June and er, up to now audiences have flocked there many weeks they've been thirty percent ahead of er ahead of budget. Moving on to B Sky B well it's making excellent progress by the end of July we had over two point three million homes connected and over half of those are subscribing to one or two movie channels. Costs are well down and will continue to fall and I'm more confident than ever that we're on to a winner. If we move to oil well our oil business obviously operates in a cycle different to our publishing businesses and er, at the end of the first half it had record sales and profits fifteen percent ahead in dollar terms ten percent ahead in, in sterling terms which may surprise you slightly, but I think James probably will talk about that later. This is a particularly good performance, specially in the U S A where there's been a very serious downturn in natural gas. We've increased our market shares virtually everywhere er two very strong er improvements Venezuela and Nigeria and the the initiative we've taken with the Soviets to rework their wells er should be onstream by the end of the year and we're hoping that may lead to other opportunities er, both in Russia and er and there's the possibility from that of some business in Eastern Europe as well. Investment banking although this year it's a very different difficult environment for investment banking particularly a house that concentrates on, on corporate finance er there hasn't been a great deal of M and A activity and if, if there has it hasn't been a very high erm very high ticket. Er but there have been a lot of issues and we've done well in that field but of course it doesn't produce the same kind of fee income as the M and A activity. Lazzards New York managed to maintain their figures of last year in dollar terms and if we take the Lazzard houses as a whole we're second only to Goldman Sachs now in the erm in the M and A table internationally and that's on the value of bids on which we've advised. Fine China we had a very poor first four months but then in May world sales were nine point nine percent ahead of last year and in the U S A over the last ten weeks we've actually been ahead of nineteen ninety. One factor in this is our exporting the very successful Bridal Collection that we developed in the U K, we've exported that to Canada and the U S and that's gone down very well indeed. We've also had significant growth in our chain store business in this country we've signed a new two-year contract with Air Canada and we're much more optimistic about the rest of the year we've got orders, production and sales all nicely in equilibrium ready for the second half. Now I'll pass you to er James. I'd just like to make two or three points first of all the exchange factor which Frank touched upon when, when talking about profits you probably all totally familiar but I have forgotten quite how much the dollar has strengthened recently beginning of the year it was nearly two dollars and the result of that is that for the erm first half as a whole the impact of er exchange translation was adverse for our profits compared with last year to the tune of about one and a half million pounds. It's not enormous but it's perhaps er not the way people er were thinking. Now the consequence of the fact that the dollar end of June er relatively strong at around one sixty of course did impinge on er our er borrowings since we do have a considerable percentage of our gross in dollar terms and if we turn to the next slide er we can see er the summary of the balance sheet at thirtieth of June. Now you'll be familiar with the fact since we went through it in April that there has been a sharp jump in our known assets brought about by the sale of Elsivir and the fact that it had a very substantially written down value in our books, seventy five million pounds. So you've had a sharp increase in our shareholders' funds during the six months and a reduction in our net debt which may not be quite as er substantial as you expected but it is the combination of on the one hand the proceeds of Elsivir less some reinvestment which Frank mentioned, we put a little more money in B S B and the minority interests and we do have traditionally in the first half an adverse net movement of funds from operation about ninety five million and then we had thirty two million odd er of simply revaluation as a result of translating our dollar debt at er the one sixty as opposed to the year ending rate. So net debt is two sixty four million er and therefore the pro forma debt equity ratio's halved from fifty seven percent to twenty eight percent we do of course expect it to be somewhat lower by the year end as our working capital which is coming to its peak season, unwinds. I'd like to go into a little more the composition of the net debt which again is something that er interests some of you we have er a reduction both on gross debt and equally an increase in cash as you would expect as a result of the Elsivir sale the increases are not fixed debt fixed term fixed rate debt is a function again of the exchange rate we haven't in issued any more the whole of the reduction of debt therefore is confined to our floating rate or variable debt and that amount's ready to the repayment of the gilder drawings we had under our to hedge or partially to hedge our holding in Elsivir We have increased our cash holdings and they remain concentrated in sterling as part of our sterling er asset er portfolio which is managed from Millbank and which we regard as our investable funds as and when needed. The child victims of war. Images that are now a daily occurrence in dozens of countries across the world. Millions of young lives have now been devastated. It's all placing an intolerable burden on charities like Save The Children who say far too often the international community is not pulling its weight. In Somalia the combination of war and famine claimed a quarter of a million children dead last year. Today in the capital Mogadishu a hundred thousand more driven from their homes, are dependent on food aid for survival. In Bosnia the war has been especially cruel on children. One estimate puts the number dead in Sarajevo alone at twelve hundred and some fourteen thousand wounded. In Northern Iraq over a hundred thousand Kurdish children are still unable to return to their homes after being forced to flee Saddam Hussein's army. Many are living in appalling conditions without clean water and proper sanitation. In Mozambique, more than two hundred thousand have been orphaned or separated from their families. Three quarters of a million children have been forced to seek refuge in neighbouring countries, others are disabled for life. In the West African republic of Liberia where eighty five per cent of the population have been displaced, children, some as young as eight are being placed in secure compounds to prevent them from going back to fight for the waring factions. Children who've been given at a far too tender age, the terrible power of holding a loaded gun and be able to command everything in sight as a result of that, have actually got to get back and rediscover childhood. Lost innocence, a pattern that's sadly being repeated across the world's battle grounds. Bill Hamilton, B B C News. Can anybody fail, fail to be moved by those pictures. Children really are under fire throughout the world, literally and metaphorically. Even in those countries where the, the real firing has stopped, there's the aftermath. Many of the wars, most of the wars, are civil wars and you know the bitterness, the lingering bitterness after a civil war doesn't help the children who have suffered from that war. Also just think of the troubles in our own Northern Ireland, right on our doorstep. Think of the problems that children have there. But even where there is no real warfare, man's inhumanity to children has caused serious deprivations of rights and of benefits generally. Food, health support, education, kindness,care, affection. These are all features of a child's life that they need. Otherwise children, without those, grow up physically,psychologically damaged and the purpose of Save The Children Fund is to work to give children the chance of a better childhood and the chance to grow up to be adults who won't repeat the sins of their forefathers. Your Royal Highness, ladies and gentlemen, welcome to this annual public meeting in this, our seventy forth anniversary year. Some of you er may take it amiss if I were to describe you as veterans but my by contrast, this is my first annual public meeting and not just as chairman. I've never had the opportunity to attend one before. Although I have been a long time supporter. Today, her Royal Highness Nick Hinton and his team will talk about the very impressive work and the tasks that lie ahead in the fifty countries and the U K in which Save The Children operates. I I will talk about the fund as I found it in my capacity as a very recent chairman. A fresh pair of eyes. A fresh pair of eyes of a relative new boy and the first thing I noticed was my family's reaction. It was as though they were saying to me, at last you're doing something worthwhile and respectable. My first impression was how well everything runs and in saying that I really am paying a tribute to previous chairmen. For whose efforts on behalf of the fund I I really do thank them and I'd like to make a special thanks to Lady Chandler, Lucy stepped into the breach as acting chair about a year ago and since I was elected has done a tremendous amount to help me settle in quickly and I hope effectively. I'm most impressed also with the hard work, the dedication and the, the sheer efficiency of the director general and his top team. I was talking, yesterday as it happened, to the chairman of another very large children's charity and I asked him how his, the spend, the annual spend of that charity was distributed between the work of the charity, the purpose of the charity and the support functions and he said about eighty twenty. Now I have to tell you that last year we raised a hundred and thirteen million pounds and of that over ninety per cent, that's a hundred and four million pounds were actually spent on projects for children and I'm very proud of that ratio indeed and I think it ought to give you, the raisers of money, a great deal of comfort because for a fund with two headquarters buildings which operates all over the world this is a distribution of funds of which to be proud. Now I've met not many yet, but very impressive, a few very impressive field workers. I've not had a chance to visit abroad yet but I think I've got two visits booked next year to various remoter parts of the world, but I've met some who are on leave, recuperating from the circumstances they've been in, sometimes illness, sometimes just the sheer tension of being under fire. Each country presents its challenges, some physically demanding, others morale sapping, there is disease, there are primitive conditions in which to live and work. I'd just like to mention one, Somalia. I'd like to pay a tribute to the courage of our people there, both the indigenous er workers for the fund and the ex-pats who've gone out there to lead that work. We're in touch with them every day, they refuse to leave and we're very grateful to them for their efforts. But those in the field, the front line could not continue without the less than glamorous work that has to be carried out back here in H Q. They also serve, who work in our offices, collect our money, keep our accounts make sure the administration is working well. Produce the educational material which is superb. And I visited both offices and I'm most impressed by the cheerful dedication and sheer hard work and efficiency of the people I've met. But the people I want to thank most are you the volunteers. People without whom we wouldn't be able to raise so much money. It's your tireless efforts as fund raisers that enable Save The Children Fund to survive. If children are to be helped in the U K and throughout the world then we all have to succeed in persuading people to donate. Those who work in our shops, those who arrange events, those who collect great and small sums of money from companies and from individuals, are all playing a vital part in the continuing work of Save The Children Fund. I think we call er the volunteers, or those who run the shops anyway, Sally's Army and that is in my way a tribute to Sally Barker who's chairman of our branches advisory committee and does so much to make sure that the money does get raised in the field. It's a chairman's very pleasant duty to thank you all. As you will know we're given large sums of money by governments, the E E C and others, to work in countries in need, to tackle specific tasks. But the money that comes in that way never fully covers the expenses involved in supporting our efforts in those countries. The money you raise therefore is extremely important in enabling the S C F to tackle major, major tasks. Without that money we would not carry on and we could not carry out our work effectively. I therefore am thanking you not, not just as a courtesy but in order to convey just how important your efforts are and just how important the seventy fifth birthday appeal is going to be next year. If that succeeds we really will be able to maintain the momentum of the fund and the work that it does throughout the world. If we don't raise our targets, we shall stumble but I'm absolutely confident from all the news that comes in from the field, that we shall raise our targets. I know that plans are well advanced throughout the country for a massive collecting effort next year and I want to wish all of you involved all the very best in your efforts as we approach these days, that's to say donation days, in the coming year. I'm sure your spirits will rise to the occasion like the balloons in our logos and the banners at the side here. Rise to the occasion. But I cannot finish er without also thanking most warmly, our supreme supporter in the task of fund raising, her Royal Highness. I know you will agree with me, that her example is inspiring to us all. Save The Children Fund and children throughout the world have every reason to be grateful for her unstinting efforts. It's not often a chairman has the chance to thank her Royal Highness publicly and I do so with pleasure now. And now to illustrate aspects of Save The Children's Fund and its long term health work, here now is a short video shot on location in Lesotho in Southern Africa and in Pennywell in Sunderland. Thank you. Save The Children's work is not just about dealing with emergency situations. It is mainly concerned with long term development. Lesotho is one of the poorest countries in the world, surrounded by South Africa it has few of its own resources. In places like this poor water supply and sanitation is a major cause of death. Contaminated water kills more people than any poison. Nine thousand children a day die from one of six preventable diseases around the world. To combat these problems needs a concerted and effective approach. Lesotho is one of eight countries across the globe in which Save The Children has introduced the riders for health project, working with the ministry of health, a successful programme has been developed which provides primary health care to almost five times as many villages that could have been reached on foot. The Save The Children Fund programme with the motorcycles has made a very big difference to the number of visits that health assistants can make to villages. Before they had the motorcycles they had to walk which meant a lot of travelling time and then less time at the, each village when they arrived. Now with the motorcycles they spend less time travelling and they can spend more time in the villages doing their educational and health work. We found that the number of visits that on average that they can do has increased by four or five hundred per cent. In fact they couldn't really do their job without the motorcycles. Previous attempts to start the project before nineteen ninety had failed because of poor maintenance to the bikes, and accidents. By introducing specialist training and good management the bikes have been used extensively. That's good well forwards excellent, well done, very good. The learning process from this project has been invaluable and it's allowed Save The Children to move forward in several other countries. Recent research into how governments and donors contribute to the provision of health services shows that effective long term systems need to be put into place. These can be worked through with local cooperation. Riders for health is a good example of what can be achieved through good planning. I think that the riders for health project has given us ah a model that can be used in a great many other situations and we've found here in Lesotho that many other ministries and government departments are interested in what we're doing because the motorcycles, if used properly, can provide a very cost effective form of transport. It is their work in the villages which is most impressive. The local health workers are able to spread basic advice on health and cleanliness as well as providing cheap but effective medicine such as immunisations and rehydration salts. Most importantly the workers help to improve the local water supply. Clean water saves more lives than any medicine that can be provided by the human race so far. Degosang is three years old. She lives in a remote village, ten kilometres from a paved road. She now has clean water from a pump that Mohali her health advisor, helped the village to organise and build. It is these basic measures which can make a difference to saving lives all over the world. Each year five million children die from the lethal effects of diarrhoea, four million from respiratory diseases like T B and bronchitis. It is through prevention that Save The Children can make the greatest impact on life. But it's not just in Africa where children are under threat from poverty and disease. In the U K Save The Children has shown the link between a poor environment and poor health. Pennywell is a housing estate in Sunderland where one in three adult males are unemployed. Health is a big issue here. Sunderland has the fourth highest number of smoking related deaths in the U K. Low birth weights are more common. Well obviously unemployment is very high in the North East and er all the major health indicators are related directly to income. So consequently er poor poor people live shorter lives and they suffer more chronic illnesses. And this is also er true of the children. Twins Rachel and Rebecca, seen here at just over a year old, live on the estate with their mother Carol. When the twins learned to climb up the stairs, Carol was terrified they might have an accident. She probably could never have afforded a stairgate, so Save The Children lent her the equipment from its safety loan scheme. The safety gates have made a big difference, since I've gotten them erm I've got peace of mind for the stairs and I can answer the phone and I haven't got to like keep trying to pull them downstairs and do do different things. The family centre provides a place for people to get practical help and advice with their problems within walking distance. Save The Children have developed in this area. I mean before they came to the centre I think people felt Save The Children only did work in countries abroad. makes us all realise what a good job Save The Children do in our country as well. Whether it's the U K or Africa, simple and appropriate solutions with the cooperation of local communities can have the most dramatic effects in improving the lives of our children. It is in these areas that Save The Children has consistently moved forward through developing long term strategies which are being added to and developed year after year. Your Royal Highness, ladies and gentlemen, good morning. I am Michael Taylor and I'm the Director of the United Kingdom and European Programmes Department of the Save The Children Fund. What we've just seen conjures up for me some positive messages of direct impact upon children and young people's lives through our work in this country and overseas. This is very much my experience of this organisation in the eight months I've worked here. Prior to coming to Save The Children through the media, I was more aware of your work, the emergency work all over the world. As director of social services for the London borough of Hillingdon I knew of the work with refugees in my role in Hillingdon I was responsible for services for child arrivals at Heathrow airport and I worked closely with Save The Children on the successful effort to get specific recognition for asylum seeking children in the asylum and immigration appeals act. What I didn't know was of the ninety-plus pieces of work, both large and small, which Save The Children undertook in the United Kingdom. I believe an important issue for all of us in the run up to and throughout the seventy fifth birthday, is the need to increase the understanding and raise the profile and the value placed upon our work in the United Kingdom. I feel we will've achieved significant progress if we have turned, I didn't know you worked in the United Kingdom, into it's good to know that the rights and needs of children are just as important to you in the United Kingdom as they are overseas. For me this has been a very exciting year in which to take on a directorship of the department. This is both in respect of the run up to the seventy fifth birthday and also with the increase in responsibility to take on the remit for the development of our work in relation to the European Community, central and Eastern Europe. We have already have significant contact through the international Save The Children alliance partners in Europe and we have representation on the European forum for child welfare. On particular issues, such as work with refugee children and work with trav traveller and gypsy families, there is already established European collaboration. It seems to me there is a massive potential to develop opportunities for practice sharing across Europe and for practice and policy initiatives of the former U K department to be assessed and developed in the European framework. Specifically though the European Programmes Division with the department will lead the development of our programmes in Eastern Europe. This will be done in partnership at all times with the in country non-gav non-governmental organisations, where such exist or where they can be developed, with governments and where appropriate with European and international agencies. The massive changes brought about by the ending of the cold war and by the collapse of state mechanism in some Eastern European countries opens up a significant opportunity to undertake work in the very near future. Save The Children fund has been involved already directly in partnership and with other international Save The Children members in providing direct and emergency aid to former Yugoslavia. However I think it's important to stress that right from the early days of the conflict we had determined not to be involved in providing large scale emergency relief. This was primarily due to a concern that given commitments elsewhere, we did not have the logistical support and any activity in former Yugoslavia would mean a major diversion from a already established programmes overseas. However this summer a temporary programme coordinator has visited the region and a short term programme of material support to children's homes has been provided and we are now working to put other facilities in s to institutions in Serbia and are hoping that through the restructuring of children's services, when the conflict is over and we believe obviously that may be some off, that we can tri can contribute to meeting the longer term needs of children in that war torn zone. In Slovenia a psychiatrist has been advising staff in refugee camps as to how to respond to the needs of traumatised children. In Croatia we are supporting an agency which provides direct assistance to refugee families and to young people. This work in former Yugoslavia will become an established part of our European programme. In Romania we are planning to work with Romanian Save The Children and to help the Romanian government in its juvenile justice system which is sadly in need of major development and change. We're also engaged with the European Community in discussion over a bid for funding to develop social work, child protection and alternatives to institutional care and to other child care systems within Romania. This work again will be undertaken in partnership with non-governmental child care organisations in that country. Through g contacts already established throughout the U K department, links have been d=established and developed with work in Poland,Russia and Albania and we're working to assess the policy, practice development or programme contribution we might make in those European countries. I believe our credibility and our strength in these new initiatives in Europe flow from our status as an international development agency and from our high quality work in projects in the United Kingdom. I'd now like you to hear directly from a young person for whom access to one of our projects in the United Kingdom has made major changes in her life. To Caroline home is a room for her possessions, abandoned by her Mum and Dad as a baby, she spent her life moving from one set of parents to another. When you haven't got no one, you have to, sort of like find a way of doing it for yourself and it's much harder. Today Caroline lives alone in a room in Oxford. Without family guidance she sometimes finds it hard to manage, especially money. While some of her friends have taken drugs, Caroline's been in trouble with the police for stealing from shops. In the beginning I did it to look good, cos I wanted the money, towards the end it was doing it to live, it was literally doing it to live. I hated doing it. I used to go into a shop and I'd shake and I'd know that I was doing wrong and I'd be really scared and I'd just knew I don't want to go to prison so I decide to stop it. Now when she needs a hand, Caroline turns to life chance. A partnership between Save The Children, social and youth services it helps youngsters help themselves by turning moans into action. Really we're trying to give young people a voice, put them in the driving seat. Gradually it sort of like brings people out of themselves and do you know what I mean, they learn to do things. Whilst as a worker I might see the process, to me very important, I think there's a lot of concrete outcomes for young people feel we have achieved this, we did this for ourselves, it's ours, we own it. You've gone and achieved something, you feel like you've done something good, you feel like you're somebody. This is when I was pregnant went to put my name down on the housing list and they said to me sorry you can't we've got too many people on there already. Life Chance workers hope this can homeless teenagers who will be the next to benefit from the project. Building up trust and friendship takes time but for hundreds makes Life Chance a lifeline. I think that Caroline's experience as portrayed in that video is not unusual. Many children and young people get caught up in crime. Either through the necessity to obtain items which they believe are essential or through a desire to be one of the gang and valued by their peers. Interestingly Caroline expressed both those needs at different times during that presentation. Children who are caught up in crime are getting a lot of media attention lately. Many people say that the solution is to take the young person who has committed a crime out of their community and lock them away, that will achieve a solution. Save The Children Fund's years of experience shows it doesn't work and indeed that form of incarceration can lead to some of the tragic circumstances of self image, damage and even death which have occurred in penal institutions and been reported recently. We've also we believe got concrete evidence to show that community based alternatives do work. At Scone Park in the North East of England we offer classes in motorbike maintenance and land conservation to young people. They build on young people's skills and confidence so they feel that they have something to offer to the world and to their own community. Latest figures show an overall twenty seven per cent decrease in crimes reported in that area since the project began. Because of our experience at Scone Park and in many other projects in the twelve years we have been working with young offenders, we, along with the other children's charities, oppose the government's proposals on persistent young offenders. Kenneth Clarke, when Home Secretary, announced the establishment of secure training centres where young people aged up to fifteen years could be sentenced for a period of up to two years. We took the view that this was a misplaced use, both of the finances required as it would divert money away from community provision, but also that there were no success criteria guaranteed other than removal from community. The children engaged in crime often come from families where there is high unemployment already and where the prospects of employment are actually denied school leavers. They're children and young people with a very poor self image and where their investment in the education system has probably been partial to say the least. There is little out of school provision and where the youth service is actually suffering savage cuts in terms of local government finance. Projects such as Scone Park have shown that there can be alternative provision and that you can meet the needs of children and young people and respond to those in their own community and develop the investment in that community. In taking this view we are not denying that the loss of liberty may actually be necessary in a few extreme cases and this should only be where the child presents a significant danger to him or herself or where there is a significant risk of major further offending and severe damage to community. These incidences are very rare and actually disposals through the courts do exist using the care facilities which are already available to the local authorities and the secure accommodation. We know that custody does not stop young people committing crimes when their sentence is over. Seventy five per cent of young people released from custody re-offend within two years. We believe and we know that re-offending rates after secure regimes are much higher than after community based schemes and the well being and safety of children we believe can be compromised by incarceration in secure provision. Because of that view and because of the principals which we as an organisation espouse we chose to challenge the position that the Home Secretary had adopted and raised, we believe, the debate in the media and in the parliamentary setting of what should be provided to meet the er needs of young people. We've demonstrated the direct link between investing in community support and reduced crime levels and we believe that programme, valued as it is in local communities, has a message larger and wider for policy makers in the United Kingdom. We recently had a similar experience in terms of a media debate and entering into it, in our work with lone parents. Reading some sections of the media recently, children of lone parents are talked about as as if they're nothing but a drain on state resources. As an organisation we believe that children in these circumstances may well need support but they're also a real resource to our society, an investment in children's welfare and children's education is a sound investment in the country's future. Recently government ministers and the media have tended to concentrate on the small minority of very young women who have had babies and who live on their own. In fact, according to government statistics, only two per cent of lone parents are aged under twenty. The majority of lone parents are older, divorced, separated or widowed women. In reading the media recently one would believe that those figures were actually reversed. Housing policy in this country has traditionally given priority to children's needs and we would find it very worrying if that priority were eroded in any way by the introductions of policies aiming to discriminate against children in one setting i.e. children of lone parent families. A recent report by the institute of housing managers confirmed that no specific priority is given in the analysis of housing need an and the awarding of points by which housing is allocated. But again the suggestion through the media would be that in order to gain top priority you need to be a young single parent with at least one child. We consider that punitive policies such as cutting benefit payments or not providing adequate housing for lone parents or their children, would immediately damage the health and well being of children and we consider that that in itself is contrary to the U N convention on the rights of the child. We will continue to encourage government to take positive steps to improve the situation of families in poverty, like providing better child care and better support services to families and maintaining and improving benefits at a level which actually ensure economic stability and guaranteeing that housing, safe and proper housing, is available for all children in our society. Our experience at our projects demonstrates that given the opportunity, lone parents, like any parents, want to improve the situation of their children by by working and by not being dependent upon benefits. At the Pattmore project in London and the Rosemount project in Glasgow for example, mothers are provided with adequate child care and it enables them to attend courses and gain skills and qualifications that give them a better chance in the job market. The very positive self image, the change during the first week, that single parents experience those courses is absolutely striking. We believe that the children of all lone parents can best be helped by po policies which support their commitment to their family and their children and pathways out of poverty should be built which ensure that all families living in poverty have the chance to change their situation. Like your chairman, I am a newcomer to the fund and my induction experience has not been limited to the division offices in the United Kingdom or visiting projects in the United Kingdom. In July of this year, along with the overseas director Mike Arrinson, I spent seven days in Bangladesh. We visited both city and rural programmes and were struck by the amazing capacity of the people to overcome adversity, both natural disasters and the extremes of poverty. The desire in all the work which we saw there was to extend to develop and to move ahead with new ideas to meet needs. The video which follows now portrays some of our work in Bangladesh and I'll provide the commentary upon it. Khulna is a large industrial city in South Western Bangladesh. It attracts many migrant families from the surrounding rural areas and as such is similar to many of the cities in Bangladesh. People flood to the city seeking employment, seeking security and actually trying to find a means of sustaining family life. Many seek employment in matchbox manufacture, in working with textiles in stone breaking,in ship building, metal working and in paper manufacture. The slums people live in have open sewers, amazingly crowded housing, poor sanitation and ineffective drainage. Eight hundred to a thousand people will live in a dense area and are subject to the vagaries of government and landlords. Slums are bulldozed overnight on occasions to make way for new developments. These people live amongst the wealthier residential areas in all of the cities of Bangladesh. The seasonal rains bring a deterioration in the living conditions and without effective drainage sewage overflows into the homes. Children are more prone to disease. These were the conditions in the slums which we visited in Dacca. Amidst these circumstances, Save The Children Fund clinics are providing primary healthcare programme for slum mothers and young children. Local clinic staff are appointed from the community itself and they provide immunisation, family planning, a dispensary, ante-natal and post natal services. More importantly they provide training for local volunteers and they give health education advice. This has led to a fall in the emergency attendances with almost a hundred per cent registration rates from local slum families. What's more these families are paying for the clinic service that they have come to appreciate. The clinic staff make weekly visits to every slum home providing effective follow up to clinic visits, whilst encouraging good health practices at home too. There is a massive investment in health education and in improving diet. The clinic has acted as a strong focus for slum living mothers to campaign for improved conditions in their surroundings. For example making arrangements to cover up open latrines. As a collective, people are contributing financially to the installation of new tube wells. The cleaner water supply has dram dramatic effects on the children's health. Every clinic conducts regular surveys to monitor the effects of the programme, proving that infant mortality rates have dropped, whilst scabies and bronchitis have decreased too. Mike and I saw a a very young child being washed at a tube well, those guiding us round the site were very impressed by this, the child was rather perplexed and surprised as normally it was taken down to the river to be washed. Women are now participating in credit saving schemes organised through Save The Children. In groups of five they each save weekly after which one of their number can take a loan and invest in an income generating project. Each group opens their own joint bank account,manages their own money,does some basic budget planning and learns to fill out the forms and paperwork necessary to record all the transactions and keep track of the state of the fund and their management of it. We saw numerous examples where people bought equipment. For example Amina has bought a sewing machine. This will give her financial independence and a steady income. She has repaid the debt and now has sufficient money on which to live. Rebaya and her daughter purchased the materials necessary to men to make incense sticks and again have achieved a degree of financial independence which six months before could not have been expected. Some people use the money to buy fishing nets. Our integrated health programme has provided a catalyst for slum families to have a hand in controlling their environment and working together to benefit each other. Free of money lenders and learning to save and contribute financially to their own programme is an important step towards long term self sustainability. Thank you. Thank you very much indeed Mike for that excellent presentation. And now I would like to ask her Royal Highness to come to the platform and address us. Thank you very much ma'am. Chairman, ladies and gentlemen. Well I'm delighted to see so many of you have taken the trouble to come and join us today for yet another annual public meeting and in welcoming you can I give a particular welcome to our new chairman Mike Betts, thank him very much indeed for joining us. He has an excellent background in support,not involved in in the running but continuous interest and support and for him to take on this challenge shows a particular kind of commitment to the work of the Save The Children Fund and we're very grateful to him for taking it on and I sincerely hope that he will enjoy the experience, especially after meeting all of you today. Mike thank you for joining us. Today is an important occasion for the fund. It always is er a moment to reflect, to look forward to renew acquaintances, to recharge the batteries, to get new ideas and that's quite right and this public meeting marks the eve of a particularly important year for all of us at the Save The Children Fund. Our seventy fifth birthday year. I hope it will be a birthday year in in every way, er but it's not just a good excuse to have a party there is very serious intent behind this birthday. When Eglantine Jebb launched the Save The Children Fund in May nineteen nineteen, one of her aims was for the fund to work for its own extinction. Seventy five years on that day seems more distant than ever. Eglantine also said that children are always the first to suffer and that is certainly as true today as it was then which means that the Save The Children Fund's work is needed now as much as it was then. B but the funds to support this work are harder to come by and you don't need me to tell you that. Yet the need is such that our spending at home and overseas has doubled in the last two years and still vital pieces of work in the U K and overseas await funding. The sad reality is that nearly seventy years after Eglantine Jebb drafted the world's first charter of children's rights, the charter which became the foundation for the nineteen eighty nine U N convention. Children's rights to health, to a good education, to safety, to a secure childhood are still threatened. In short children across, across the globe are facing pressures and conditions that are no longer considered acceptable to an international community that sees so much suffering around the world. They want to do something. I believe with our experience that the Save The Children Fund can do something positive that will last. We urgently need funds to be able to respond effectively and to meet the increased demands being made on us as well as to maintain our existing work. That's why Save The Children is marking this seventy fifth birthday year with the biggest and most important fund raising appeal in the organisation's history. Our target is to raise, in cash and in pledges, an additional twenty five million pounds over and above our normal fundraising. But before I talk in more detail about how we hope to raise this money let me spend a little time explaining why I feel that this appeal is so vital to children everywhere. I need hardly remind you of the many emergencies that Save The Children has responded to in recent years. The most recent was for Somalia, and you responded magnificently, helping to raise over five million pounds for relief work. But as you know the needs of the world's children go far beyond the immediate emergencies like those in Somalia or Liberia. The need for sustainable health, education and welfare services is as acute as ever. Children in the United Kingdom face different sorts of problems but they too are under threat. Parents need help with their own lives so that their children don't suffer from the unemployment and homelessness that contribute to ill health and an unsafe living environment that too many children have to live with today. It is only by establishing and maintaining development programmes and by working in conjunction with families, with communities and with governments that we can begin to achieve lasting improvements which tackle the root causes of the poverty and inequality that threaten so many children. Investing in human resources is a fundamental part of that process too. It helps to promote the political stability and economic growth that is an essential backdrop to any kind of lasting change. But as you know the Save The Children is just one development organisation and with limited resources, so a major part of our task is to use our influence and authority to press for change on a wider scale by keeping the issues of poverty and inequality and of children firmly on the international agenda. Ladakh in North West India, very distant, remote, mountainous, a harsh environment for any child to grow up in. Most villages are perched over ten thousand feet up in the Himalayas. Many can be reached only by walking, for several days along precarious footpaths and they may be cut off half the year by snow. In winter, the temperature can drop to minus forty degrees centigrade. Ladakhis live from farming and livestock rearing and believe me they know how to do this. They know how to cope and they have very sophisticated forms of irrigation. But although they are largely self sufficient, needless to say livelihoods in these sort of conditions and communities are on a knife edge. The growing season is short and the tiny fields are extremely difficult to plough. For health and welfare most villages depend on village healers. But unless this is combined with techniques like vaccination and knowledge of oral rehydration, diseases like measles and diarrhoea are child killers. To net to get an education beyond primary level, children have to leave their village primary schools because the terms coincide with the peak agricultural seasons. Save The Children d went into Ladakh fifteen years ago to provide emergency feeding for malnourished children. Today that emergency programme has evolved into a broad based community programme, focusing on health, education and economic status and training of teachers and health workers. To give Ladakh's children a better start in life means supporting services that work in harmony with local structures and rhythms. Now there is primary health care for all mothers and children however remote their community. Families have become involved in income generating schemes and children have better access to education and in all these areas the villagers, particularly women, work closely with staff to play an active part in the development of their own community and the securing of their children's future. Now a Glasgow inner city area migh may seem light years away from all this but in many ways the need is just as acute. And they are still a community under pressure. Royston in Glasgow, where unemployment is high, the housing is high and poor and there are few safe areas and precious little childcare provision. Many of the residents are single parents who often feel isolated and trapped and unable to improve their situation. Save The Children's Rosemount project which I visited in June is working with parents and children, providing quality child care with individual attention for each child and offering courses in computing and child care for women to improve their skills and equally important, their confidence. In other words giving people the raw materials to improve their lives and safeguard their children's future. Both of these interventions are successes in their own right. They apply to different communities, they have responded to different communities' needs but they also contribute to a ripple effect of achievement at national and international levels which will ultimately benefit the lives of many more children. They are setting standards of good practice that we in the Save The Children Fund can then help to spread. These children the world over need your continued help and that is what this birthday appeal is all about. With seventy five years of working with children under our belt and with our many achievements on behalf of children with pioneering schemes, we have the experience and the expertise to achieve real and lasting change. So where do we start with the mammoth task of raising an additional twenty five million pounds? I have little doubt that nineteen ninety four, ninety five will be a challenge, especially in today's economic climate. This is going to be a year when we will all have to go that extra mile for children. But I'm afraid your reputation precedes you, you are renowned for rising to challenges like these and I feel sure that you can build on your previous successes and that together we can and probably will, do it. I will be launching the birthday year in January when I hope that among other things, we might succeed in gaining recognition for Eglantine Jebb and our many achievements for children and I was delighted to be asked to chair the birthday advisory group and to be closely involved with activities during nineteen ninety four. One of the activities we have great hopes for is our private appeal which will run alongside our public fundraising. This is a first for The Save The Children and we will be approaching wealthy individuals, foundations and trusts for donations towards our work. That will not be easy because most of them are heavily involved in funding of all sorts of other organisations and they have their own interests. We will have to be very sure that we know what we're talking about when we meet them to persuade them that we need their funds more and we can make better use of them and we hope to raise around half of that twenty five million pounds from them. I'd like to take this opportunity to thank Sir David Scholey, the chairman of S G Warburg for chairing the private appeal. Sir David is a long term supporter of Save The Children and has sat for many years on the industry and commerce group. And I'd also like to extend my thanks to his very able committee. Our corporate members are ready but they very much need your help. We are relying on you and all the other volunteers around the U K in your contacts with the public to help make this year a success. You are the public face of the Save The Children Fund. The people who have carried the fund raising banner throughout the years. The people at the fund raising coal face who have the skills and the expertise to ensure that our seventy fifth birthday year goes down in Save The Children's fund raising history. This year though we want to attract new supporters and search out people who haven't traditionally supported Save The Children as well as building on the commitment of our existing supporters. You are all familiar with our loyal supporters, but what about those people on the fringes who may have given a donation or done something for Save The Children in the past, but never really followed it up and there are the people who are interested who think, it's a charity I feel I ought to support. Let's see if we can move them on this year so that they start to think it's a charity I know I really want to support. What better time than a birthday year to persuade all these people to become active and long term supporters of the Save The Children. Plans are well underway for next year. I know that many of you have already come up with some interesting ideas on seventy fifth theme. Many branches have already scheduled a range of exciting events based on the birthday in addition to the events that will be happening nationwide. Like the thousands of birthday parties that we hope will take place on May the nineteenth. There will be more on all these happenings later today. Other fund raising plans are well advanced too. I'm delighted that our old friends at Tesco, a founder corporate member of Save The Children, are once again lending their generous support. In nineteen ninety four they are making us their charity of the year and offering to work with us across the U K to help raise an extra million. I would also like to thank another of our corporate members, Cadbury Limited. Over the past eighteen months Cadbury and Save The Children have worked very successfully together, staging three strollathons sponsoring nationwide pantomimes and running a promotion on chocolate bars. I think that was probably the most popular. As our seventy fifth birthday approaches, Cadbury hopes to stage more events and promotions to help us meet our seventy five million t pound target and meet our commitment to the world's children. All in all it promises to be an exciting enjoyable and hard working year for Save The Children and all its supporters. It is going to be hard work. Nobody would pretend that raising an additional twenty five million pounds is going to be easy but time and again you have risen to the challenge. We must make very sure we know what we're doing it for. It will help to remind ourselves of the challenge that Eglantine Jebb took up. Her clear sighted approach to bring long lasting help to mothers and children, so that children could benefit, wherever they were whatever their country, their colour, their situation -urban or rural, their culture, their religion, their society in the sense of its development and their expectations and their infrastructure. She was frustrated by short term palliatives. When knowledge of basic principles might cure for future generations many diseases and even hunger and that education might set solid foundations for extending and repeating that knowledge, as well as the economic viability of the community and a sense of responsibility. A sense of responsibility in the children that we help, that they all grow up to be responsible adults. In seventy five years the fund has remained true to her principles and yet it is as pioneering as she ever was. I hope she would be pleased by our efforts, in spite of the fact that we are still here and needed. I know she would be proud of you, the fund raisers, who make it possible. As you set about making your plans for next year let me leave you with this thought from Eglantine Jebb If children of any country are physically or morally abandoned the whole world loses by it and the whole world gains if children grow up healthy, capable and ready to work for the good of their neighbours. Good luck. Thank you very much indeed for that superb key note address. And now let us proceed with the next business of the day, it gives me great pleasure your Royal Highness to er invite you to present several Save The Children awards this morning. These awards are given in recognition of outstanding services to children. Five people who've been nominated for awards are not available to receive them from her Royal Highness. Though absent they are Ray , Lee , Kim , Cho and Marjorie . Congratulations to them all, they'll be receiving their awards in due course. We now Now for those who are present I will call out each name and if each one can come forward and receive the award from her Royal Highness. Joe Lady Sarah Esther Josephine Anne Dora Jill Thank you award winners and thank you all for your contribution to Save The Children Fund. Now I have some er parish notices for you all. Now there are imbit information stands on level five where several catering points are available for lunch and er members of the audience can also attend four fringe meetings. These meetings are Making the most of the seventy fifth in shops, Involving young people in singing for the seventy fifth, Branches sharing fund raising ideas for the seventy fifth and Small World Theatre extracts from Moving, a play on the theme of refugees. Now these are taking place between one and two this afternoon. I should say that there are only seventy five seats available for each fringe meeting so if you want to go hurry on and get your tickets which will be issued at level three information desk on a first come, first served basis. A colour coded system will be in operation to help you find your way around those fringe meetings. Now I just want to end this morning session by reminding you to be in your seats by two twenty. We have a speaker er Patricia Routledge in her guise as Mrs Bucket or Mrs Bouquet she would not be very pleased if you were late. For one of her candle-lit after-lunch speeches. Thank you very much for this morning, we'll see you this afternoon. interesting as well as a er edible lunch er we're very pleased now to start away the afternoon session and I'm particularly pleased to be able to introduce Patricia Routledge, she's an actress with so many parts in so many media that I'm not going to make any further introduction, but merely to ask her to come up and speak to us. When she has finished Sally Barker, branches advisory committee chairman, will make her presentation. Thank you very much. Your Royal Highness, ladies and gentlemen. It is a particular privilege for me to be here today and part of me feels not totally qualified. I have over the years sent my postal order regularly and it wasn't until two years ago that I became more actively involved in the work of Save The Children fund raising. I was invited to give an entertainment at the Bristol Old Vic theatre, the wonderful old Theatre Royal, the oldest extant theatre still being used in the country and one of the oldest in the world, a very beautiful place erm and I was asked if I would do an entertainment that I have called Come for the Ride which I was persuaded to concoct by my home town of Birkenhead in the North West of England. I did it there originally and then did it at festivals all over the country. I have a particular affection for Bristol and the West country, I'd like you know that, those of you who've come all the way to London from the West and I so I was very happy to have this evening and be able with er an accompanist and musical director, to provide entertainment that would raise money. I was told early on that it was possible that your Royal Highness would be able to be there and indeed you were and it gave us all one of the most unforgettable nights. I remember after the show you spoke for twelve minutes without a note and not only that but you came round afterwards and spent eight or ten minutes with us, the artists, which absolutely made our evening. It seems to me that that attention to the moment is significant of the great work that you do for this particular charity. Now I recently have accumulated unto myself, a notoriety that I didn't originally seek. And certainly didn't expect but everywhere I go it comes at me. It gives me great pleasure because people are extremely kind and extremely generous. We're very obsessed with things called viewing figures in television and I worked out quite simply that if everybody among the eleven million people who are supposed to view Keeping Up Appearances every Sunday, popped a penny into a money box for Save The Children Fund one Sunday night, that would raise a hundred and ten thousand pounds within an hour, now why don't we get going and encourage people to do that. Multiply that by seven and it's seven hundred and seventy thousand pounds. What we are able to do in my job is to do what I was happy to do which is to give a performance in aid of a charity, one soon learns how to expend one's energy and in which direction to focus it. Earlier this year, on April the twenty second,her Royal Highness, the Princess Royal, entertained various representatives from the world of entertainment and sport and journalism at Buckingham Palace. We had the most wonderful evening, it began with a film show, an extremely well er composed film to do with the work that is being done, the variety of work that is being done in the variety of places. Various reports a plea for support a plea for interest particularly for the seventy fifth anniversary year next year and after that we had the most lovely party. I have a list here of people in my particular part of the profession who have pledged themselves to assist with the great drive forward for the seventy fifth anniversary. A number of celebrities were appearing in the Cadbury's sponsored pantomimes around the country and supporting the Save The Children fund raising activities. These include Lesley Joseph, Jeff Capes, Bobby Davro, Windsor Davies, John Nettles and Gloria Hunniford and Ian Botham. Pam Ferris from the Darling Buds of May is actively supporting the fund and will help with publiscation and er fund raising, publicising and fund raising in the birthday year. Sandi Toksvig, the comedy actress, has been advising on the seventy fifth birthday plans with television, book and consumer magazine support, she'll be visiting Zimbabwe in October with a B B C television crew to film a documentary and will be visiting and filming Save The Children Fund projects while she's there. Lulu Ulrika Johnson, Tessa Sanderson, Debby McGee and Linda Bellingham all lent their support to this year's Cadbury's strollathon and we look forward to their continued support in our birthday year. Next year I am going to be very active in the theatre and I've already this morning, sown the seed er for possibly er giving a particular performance er of one of the plays in this particular season I'm going to do er for Save The Children Fund and I've said I've said move fast, get on with it. William Wordsworth nearly two hundred years ago, wrote this my heart leaps up when I behold a rainbow in the sky. So it was when my life began so it is now that I am a man. So be it when I shall grow old or let me die. The child is father of the man. And that is what it seems to me is the purpose of all our support for this fund. I've been particularly impressed with the officials and executives and workers that I've met. I've been particularly impressed today to learn how people come here every year, particularly for this meeting and of all the various ways in which money can be raised. The money is there, we know this. I always say that we all spend our money on what we really want to spend it on and put a bit by for what we really desire to achieve. It is wonderful all the work that you do. And I applaud and admire it. I am here partly because I was fortunate enough to have the happiest and healthiest of childhoods and I see it as a very happy obligation to try to do my best to ensure that all over the world it is possible for other children to enjoy something of what I had. God bless you all and I hope to be walking alongside you during the seventy fifth year anniversary efforts. In Sri Lanka thousand of families have moved from the countryside to the capital Colombo in search of a better life. Instead they find nowhere to live, nothing to eat and poor health and education. Save The Children is helping families to rebuild the ghettos, to make a better life for themselves and the next generation. In the Sudan cities are surrounded by huge camps filled with victims of a five year long civil war. It's a poor part of Africa but most of its problems are man made. Fighting has cut off supplies to the refugees. Save The Children works with organisations like the Red Cross to restore that life line. Poor children in Jamaica often fall prey to drugs dealers who offer them clothes and shoes in return for carrying drugs. Save The Children helps youngsters living and working on the streets, it runs schools where the poorest can get hot meals and lessons. Just one more example of how Save the Children does just that all round the world. Yes. Those are some of the reasons why I and many others support Save The Children and thank you Patricia Routledge for talking to us today, it was a pleasure listening to you. Hello everyone. Once again it is lovely to see you all. Well this is it, next year is our seventy fifth birthday so today is one of our most important meetings we will ever have. It'll be a very challenging year for volunteers, I'm sure you'll all agree. In the past year I've been invited by many of you to meet branch members and to make shop visits all over the United Kingdom. It's been a privilege to have done this and I'm overwhelmed by the enthusiasm I've encountered. You, Save The Children Fund volunteers, are determined not to let the recession beat you. The message I've given to London is that volunteers are in very good heart and it doesn't stop there. The really good thing is that there are a huge variety of plans for our big year. More of that later. But what about the last twelve months. What stories do our figures tell us? Well while we were all delighted about the tremendous increase in income two years ago we were also a little concerned about how we should hold on to it, but we have. Last year branch income was on target at seven point eight million pounds, a massive increase on the plateau of five to five and half million pounds we were on before Skip Lunch. Congratulations to you all. And the shops, well there are now one hundred and fifty nine shops. Together they have raised five point seven million pounds last year, a wonderful result and thank you all. I particularly want to highlight the shop cash donations. We've introduced a new donations box and some shops have special donations secretaries and many helpers encourage donations too. What a success story. Shop cash donations have gone up from five hundred and sixty three thousand to six hundred and twenty nine thousand, a marvellous increase. Hello sir. How you doing? Not so good. What have you been up to then? Oh I think my health's breaking up. It's my ears and er my back. I w I was in and seeing the Doctor Mhm. and he's given me pills and that for it, but it's my ears . This is one that's been, I've had appointment and for three times I'd had to cancel it . buzzing in ears when I go to bed at night. Mhm. I'm not getting to sleep. It's taking me oh quite a while to get to sleep and, and I'm not hearing too good. Right. Let's have a look in and see if your brains are expanding or what's happening in here. No wonder you're not hearing so good. No wonder you're getting a buzzing in your ears there's a big lump of concrete in there. Is there? Let's have another look at this. Oh my. For goodness sake. There's a wee man with a pick and shovel in Oh aye. It's solid. Is it? Absolutely solid. I've been putting drops in it too Aye. quite regular. Aye. I'll, I'll need to give you some special stuff to loosen that. Aye. Because that's Because it's right? It's caught in the hairs Mhm. in the inside here and if we try and syringe it out it'll pull hairs out Aha. and irritate the skin. Aye. I'll give you some special stuff to get rid of that. Cos I've been trying and trying for ages to get that. No. It's the, it's absolutely solid. The, the drops are not not doing anything. seeing Doctor the other week. My back absolutely killing me. And I'm falling asleep every time I sit down. We'll need to do something about that. That's not right. Between that and my back and my knees it's . Two drops of this Aha. in the morning. A wee bit of cotton wool just on the outside. Same on the other side. Same at bedtime before you got to bed. Aha. Couple drops and Mhm. cotton wool. And that'll gradually loosen that up. Come back down in about a fortnight Aha. and we'll just a wee gentle syringe and it'll all come away. Smashing. No problem at Right. all. Now then. Thirty two Grove. Grove . Now is your insurance line due in about a fortnight ? Aye. Aye. Right. Here we are then and they'll have to get that sorted for . Great. Thanks. Okay. Right. Cheerio now. Cheerio. Good evening ladies and gentleman. Good evening, Bert. Thanks for coming along tonight as you see we have our A G M tonight and er hope er to see a lot more faces here tonight his car broke down. Oh apologies from Brian his car broke down. Oh well . Jack should be here. er Brian W Val anybody else? I think people shy off the A G M,because they're frightened of getting jobs on the committee. Right then could we have the minutes from the previous A G M, please. The minutes of the annual general meeting held at Labour Club on Monday the seventh of December nineteen ninety two. There were thirteen members present,in the chair apology er apologies from Joe and Emily and Robert who were injured in a car crash on the way here. Minutes of the A G M on the second of December nineteen ninety one were read proposed Jack and seconded that they be accepted. All in favour there were none against and no abstentions. Matters arising there were no matters arising unusually. Secretary's report the secretary thanked Joan and Reg for the club during the year especially for donating items for the open show for the and Christmas social. It was a very hard job holding everything together and it required tremendous dedication from everyone concerned. Difficulties had arisen over the Globe Hotel in February last year and we have been forced to move yet again. We were once more experiencing difficulties hopefully they would all be out before too long. We hadn't managed to get any speakers this year but had all enjoyed the previous meeting in Oc in October. There had been a trip to Yorkshire in April and another to the British Aquarist Festival in November, both of which had been enjoyed by all. This concluded the secretary's report. Brian proposed Wilf seconded that the be, the, seconded that the report be accepted all in favour, there were none against and no abstentions. Show secretary's report in the show secretary's absence due to the accident on route tonight the chairman said Mrs had done a fantastic job over the year and he wished to record his thanks to her. The fish on the bench have increased over the year and he asked everyone to bring out just one fish every meeting. The secretary would phone to find out if they were alright after the accident and if nec necessary contact the chairman. Treasurer's report the balance sheets were circulated to all and the treasurer went through each item of expenditure, explaining in detail. There was a healthy balance for nineteen ninety three and this was mainly due to members supporting raffles and the fact that we have not put the show stand off at the British Aquarist Festival for a couple of years. This had built up the present balance to what it now was. Mr proposed seconded that the report be accepted. All in favour none against and no abstentions. This concluded the reports. There was no librarian's report due to Mr being absent. The chairman thanked all those who had worked hard and tirelessly over the last year for the benefit of the club and its members. Election of the committee. Now I don't propose to go through erm the proposers and seconders, I shall just go through the nominees er and there was no opposition. So er presumably er you understand that it was, they were all elected. The chairman Peter vice chairman, Bill secretary, H treasurer A B show secretary, E assistant show secretary, R librarian, Jane committee J M W and J . All these members were elected unanimously and unopposed. Now, any other business. We were asked to try to arrange an inter-club table show with Hulton Aquarist Society. The secretary would approach the Hulton secretary. The treasurer asked if we could make an early start to the meetings eight P M prompt. It looked very bad when we advertised an eight P M start and if if you members came along there was only two or three people here at eight P M. This concluded the business of the A G M and the chairman closed the, the meeting at ten ten ten past ten. Other club business social evening on Monday the twenty first of December Mr would donate egg and cress sandwiches B W would donate cheese cheese and onion Wilf would donate boiled ham. Secretary would arrange chicken pieces pork pies sausage rolls, sausages on sticks cheese and onion and cheese and pineapple on sticks and would also donate mince pies. Jack may be able to donate some scones we would have bingo a knock-out competition and the whisky roll plus a raffle. Prizes required please. There was no further business the chairman closed the meeting at ten forty P M. Any matters arising from those minutes? No matters arising? Can we have a proposer and seconder, please? Yes is there a proposer? And a seconder? Seconded. I haven't got a you don't give me one! I'll give you er give you an extra cup of tea at supper time. Thank you. Oh hang on a minute, the secretary can go first. Oh matters arising. there's none arising. No correct. No matters arising. No. propose second Yeah but Joe Joe proposed Yeah we've done that bit we've done that bit and Brian seconded we've done that bit now we're on to matters arising. Yeah minutes of the previous A G M proposed and seconded, right? Matters arising proposed and seconded that they be accepted recommendations Yeah no no, because there was no matters arising. Just put that on so you can proposing and seconding . Confusing, isn't it? No, not really! Right Secretary's report Can we have the secretary's report. Yeah. Erm secretary's report, it's much the same as last year er, we had two trips this year two coach trips one to the Yorkshire Aquarist Festival in Ap was it April? I think it was April, wasn't it? And one to the British Aquarist Festival in October. They were both enjoyable erm I can't really say which I enjoyed the most er, I thought they were both very good and of course good value for the money because they don't charge very much for the fares well I don't think they do. Erm then we had the three-way inter-club table show with Hulton and Skelmersdale and St Helens erm the first one was St Helens and that was the only wasn't it, about April and we won that we, we it was a whitewash really, wasn't it? Erm then we had one at Sk Hulton in July and we won that er, not quite as much of a whitewash was it? Nevertheless we won handsomely. And the third one was at Skelm Which was not organized because we don't know anyone which was we don't know who won we don't know what the score was but we think that but we're, we're assuming that that's because they bring out all their secret showmen who don't sh travel they have a little core, hard core of that don't travel but they, they bring them out they bring them out at their own table shows and, and it's Appropriate that we should that much Well that appears to be so . I never cared for results never cared for results at all. Robert is We never saw a fish either. No. I don't think erm on reflection, I don't think that a three-way table show is a good thing. I would prefer to see an inter-club with Skelm and an inter-club with Hulton I think they get too big, two clubs is too difficult to organize when there's three cos you, you're getting it's not , it's the It's not that the show secretary was er at club had not done his job. At Skelmersdale? Yeah. I mean he's in the auction when he should be with them writing the labels. Yeah. Yes I mean it doesn't go down well and I'll say the things you have to do when you when you're helping to run a club, you have to commit yourself to the club and you have to do the jobs that th presented by the club. I mean I date mine, er well I don't date 'em I I sign the cards at home and do all that at home before I go That's right. and then when I come here I've just got to date what fish is on the bench. That's right. And it cuts down the work then. The way he's doing this is there's they can go. Well that's no use is it? That's no use. I know they were still judging after midnight and that's no good really no good at all on a working week. When we got there we had to species of fish and then take it out and Yeah yeah. It's a good idea it's a good idea in principle but, but it's not a workable proposition when you've over a hundred fish and there's evening Yes. she hasn't got enough time one of the didn't come till nearly quarter past ten. Yeah yeah. I think it er, on reflection I think er I would discourage members from having a three-way table show I like the, the one-off you know, one against one because it works better yeah. I think it works better. Yeah. Yes of course yeah, but the, you know, we, we have to, I have to make a report and I have to recommend so I'm recommending that we forget about the three-way stuff. Er, we had a breeders' meeting in October which was I enjoy them very much, I enjoy the the talk because it's the first chance I get during the year when I can sit down and listen and I don't have to worry about them generally, in another club, I don't have to worry about minutes or anything, I just sit and listen and it's great it, I really enjoy that. Meetings once again I have to say the old, old chestnut please can we start at eight o' clock er we're getting new members who get a bit discouraged when we have a late start. I know it isn't easy but erm I think we should you know, try and we advertise starting at eight o'clock and very often there's only Alan and I here at eight. So if we could all try our best to get here at eight o' clock. Particularly when we're trying to get juveniles into the club I mean they want to go at ten possibly you owe them not starting till Yeah yeah. It's very difficult to nine there's nothing, you know they'll get discouraged. So you John now Jonathan he's only fifteen, I know he looks in his twenties, but he's only fifteen and he's done a lot of homework so it makes him late and it makes him uncomfortable and he's fidgety because he knows he's got to disturb us when he goes out, he doesn't doesn't enjoy disturbing us, so I have to make that clear to you. Erm again i er the old story, we can't get speakers on a Monday and better luck in last year this year, sorry er I was able to get Danny but there again he came very expensive erm but we brought, we had to bring him from Lancaster so er, you can't expect him to come for nothing. So erm and another thing I was going to suggest erm I need help really erm for the meetings, I need somebody who will help, a social secretary say somebody who will help with the raffles and somebody who will organize meetings, what's going on at meetings because it's getting, the job is getting most difficult and I work part-time and it's, it's, I'm not getting any younger and I'm finding it a struggle to try and get everything fixed, the raffles and the what's going on and everything organized, so if you, if you if you could see the way clear, perhaps we could create a social secretary or an assistant secretary where we could have somebody who can give a hand with the organization of the meetings Just to get things like slide shows or erm videos and things, you know, that's how we're gonna organizing the raffles just to get things like slide shows organized videos organized just a little bit of help. Will you? Thank you, Robert. Yes. So if we make a list of what we've got when you have a video night, if you or, or somebody else has the video list, you can say, well if you bring them back That's right and we, Brian had the club slides which he very kindly handed over to us when he, he, he felt it became difficult for him to cope with it erm cos his dad's not well. We have the club slides in our house so that you know really whoever takes over organizing the meeting should really have those and they're all sorted out in order so it's just a case of diving in the bag and looking for whatever you want, ever the I always try to bring some fish to look at, to the the scr to the screen erm some of the fish that were on show on the table for that particular sh er in erm table show because I think it shows interest and to learn more about the fish and it's always nice when somebody else knows a lot more about the particular species than you do, and i is able to tell you quirks and fancies that they have. So I always try to do that but I, I, again I find that it's very erm very tiring and it's very, gets very can get very involved with it, so I would like us, I'd like you to think of the idea of a social secretary to help with the raffles and organizing what's going on at the meetings please. Erm and that's about all I have to say, Mr Chairman. need a proposer . I keep losing me place. I'll have put me I know it's, it's not not and the report from the treasurer can we have your report, please? This is what everyone's been waiting for. have the er figures in front of you of our progress during the last twelve months you will no doubt see that we are in a very nice financial position er only a pound and a penny off that magic thousand pound in in the club now. Erm during the year we've made about er two hundred and two hundred and twenty odd pounds. Er it's not due to my expertise at all, it's just mainly due to the fact we don't go to shows these days we've always in the good old days when we used to go to shows we spent probably a hundred and thirty to two hundred pounds a year so we never had very much money as we don't go to these shows and spend this money it is it is a it is accumulating each year. Erm I'll go through, roughly through the accounts in case anybody's not quite clear what it's all about. Er we started off with seven hundred and seventy five pounds, seventy six, at the beginning of the year er the membership is only thirty seven, we have fewer members but er that's a very small proportion of our income. Four pound for visitors only seem to come and then disappear not many of them seem to join us. Erm because of a social evening er we had a raffle and a whiskey bowl I think the purists might not like the E in whiskey but that's the way it's been done that must be the southern way. Erm right the Yorkshire Aquarist Festival we had a coach two ninety three pound on the coach and a raffle a hundred and six pound erm on the inter-club we had a fourteen pound twenty five entry and we had a raffle, twenty nine twenty five, making forty three pound fifty. Yorkshire was quite a success this year, we made a lot of money o on the income side er sixty two pound for entries ninety one pound ten for refreshments hundred and nine forty for the raffle, our kind and thanks to Bert Thanks to Bert it says here. for breaking the record for four minute mile. The tombola thirty nine again thanks to Bill for breaking the records. Five hundred and fifty pound and sponsorship coming from the members of course fifty three pound fifty. All our w most of our money does come from the members themselves as you've seen. Er the er the breeders' evening now what happened on this breeders' evening is that the they run the raffle then give us our expenses out of it so that eleven pound eighty is the is the part of the raffle proceeds which we need to, to e to er for our expenses, you'll see on the other side erm that we spent that eleven eighty, six eighty for er refreshments and five pound for the rent. Er, the rest of it they take for the er to keep the breeders' going keep . Erm oh yes excellent. er the coach to er to er Bowness on the bus we took thirty nine pound erm with discount from last year people who er bought some last Christmas we made twenty three pound on that the library, only thirty pence course, we've had trouble with the library because we can't leave it here now and er so that's why it's s so low the, the income. Er six twenty for the sale of badges fancy some of that was from a previous year. Yes it was it was. I forgot about the sale of badges last year that's probably two years actually er income from that. sales that were left over from the open show, three pound thirty fourteen pound ten for the collection, now that is as you see, that is over from last year last year the table show so we actually have double the number of entries on the bench this year which is a healthy sign Really that and er hopefully if we can only just bring enough fish each and every time erm we'll even get it higher. Now as you can see, our main income is our raffles two hundred and sixty pound, that is an increase of ooh seventy five pound on last year. Paid a hundred and eighty five last, two hundred and sixty this year. Er I'd just like to thank everybody for their generosity for taking part so . Erm we're trying to have beer put on the price each time now to make it worthwhile so you get a chance of getting your money back. Right that makes a total of seventeen eighty six, sixty one over the year. Erm, right on the expenditure side we have our normal subscriptions for the year, A S erm the F B A S which you all know, there's no strangers here who don't know what these are the A L A and the Whale and Dolphin er Preservation Society which we have taken on as a personal thing in the, in the er name of the club because it's cheaper No, it's in my name. It's in your name but it's on behalf of the club. It's on behalf of the club, yeah. Because the the, the club one's getting rather expensive so we yeah Eighteen pounds. so we decided to join that for this year. The rent for the club room er five pound per go, a hundred and fifteen pound erm the Christmas social, we spent fif thirty five fifty one on the refreshments and seven eighty nine on the whisky, making a forty three forty expenditure the club trophies, we spent nineteen pound fifty this year and we saved a lot of money on that this year, we spent about a hundred and thirty to forty last year erm so we have got a quite a difference just trying to find last year's erm there they are trophies, a hundred and sixteen pound we paid last year so have, we did save a lot of money by doing them ourselves more or less. Erm the inter-club show erm we had to pay judges er two of them thirty pound, we would normally have got Keith for nothing, I know that we had two judges so we had to pay them er we did like so that's two fifty pounds and we bought some we had some old trophies which we were able to buy plates for to use for that event. Erm postage and stationery eight forty four raffle tickets ten thirty eight raffle prizes, sixteen twenty four,if I'm short. Erm table show judges, we had a table at the beginning of the year when we had the gentleman from Runcorn, what's his name? Paul. Paul came to came to judge erm er that's the only time we've had a judge. Er hundred and forty pound for the coach to Yorkshire which we got on the other side, a hundred and six pound back so the club er sponsored that, a hundred and thirty four pound, and thirty four pound. Erm right the open show fifty nine ninety five for the hire of the hall, much the same as last year, it's keeping pretty well down er, it's, we paid fifty three eighty last year, but I think because little bit for a longer time this year. Erm the judges, seventy five er and that's ten pound less than last year, maybe because we're struggling to get judges forty two pound for the trophies erm er, fifteen pound for the fish tank and plates at seventy five forty seven, crisps, eight seventy eight, which we struggled to sell we think you could sell crisps but we had a struggle. Postage, stationery, fourteen O six raffle tickets, eleven pound, making a total of two thirty twenty six as against on the other side the income, three ninety six so we made a hundred and sixty six pound on on the open show which is a great increase on last year because last year we only made twelve pounds something twelve pound and a penny we made last year, so this is a great increase. the coach to the breeders' evening that's what I mentioned before, we paid for the refreshments and the rent show secretary has only claimed two pounds which is a scandal really she's probably paid twenty out, twenty pounds Yeah I think so cos she's sitting here smiling. So Joe doesn't get so many mushy peas. Er champion of champions we've, I bought some prizes for the champion of champions, and food er just to go with the trophies er Keith again was our judge and erm knowing that he doesn't willingly accept money, he wants to come and do it for nothing erm how many proposed that we buy him something a bottle to take with him, so we bought him a bottle of wine to take with him and er that was the three pound. So that gives us a total expenditure of seven eighty seven sixty two for the year and that leaves us with a balance er of the year and that's nine ninety eight ninety nine pence. So we're exceedingly well off really for the size of the club and my trip to Amazon, up the Amazon collecting fish gets nearer and nearer Gets nearer every day You wouldn't get Erm very far on a thousand pound though, would you? Well as I say I mean we're doing very well and all the money and, and you know, ninety percent of the money comes out of the the er the members' pockets really I mean ev even the sub for the open show, we put out a lot of that even the stuff and things like this, so we do provide an awful lot of money. Er we haven't used very much of it this year I mean I think er I mentioned a few weeks ago the, the question of trips out perhaps in the spring to do fish and that, we could consider er we don't want to just go er accumulating money for the sake of it erm, we want to get some benefit out of the money we've got. Erm we may of course go to Bowness next year if the circumstances change and we can manage it that will course cost a fair amount of money but that remains to be seen, we'll have to wait and see how the club progresses during the year whether we think we can do it . Right, any questions? No? We don't them. We don't with thousand pound in his back pocket can't be bad. It's coming to the stage soon when we'll have to put it in a building society, get some interest on it. I mean sh shame in the banks I mean we don't get charges any charges from this bank, I mean if, if you er put it in some banks you get interest charge you on your cheques and all sorts of things, it, it's as broad as it's long usually but er I mean we are gonna accumulate money, I don't think we should accumulate very much more now, we, we've ample funds for everything we need er but it's a question But it's just lying in the bank dormant and it's not making any interest I know it's not being, I know we're not being charged but Trouble is building society, I don't know they do it. Maybe you could the only way we could do it is er a joint account and that would be have to be based on trust you know, a mutual trust between er y your two main people er y you would just have to trust them erm nobody, how do members feel about if you That's true. Well it's a and stuff like that, I mean But I mean I the reason I propose giving he has to do is come It's embarrassing. and sometimes he, he, he feels it be putting on those Yes yes and he's such a nice man and he does it so willingly if he can. That's why he's Yes. Oh, I'll have one off him, yeah when it's done like, you know it's going Oh yes, I'll have one him. Yeah, he's doing it. Yes yes. We are struggling with judges aren't we? And what about, you know about the judges, don't you? Yes, but it doesn't I just mentioned it er we have we have had a suggestion from B class judges that er that the B class judges can show at er an, an open show providing, providing they declare beforehand Providing they declare their interests it is what I've always thought for a long time that somebody like Brian if he's not if he's not showing at our fish at our show, even as an A class judge, I, I fail to see why he can't judge at our show it's, he goes to Skelm and, and judges there and our fish will be there or strange really when we're struggling for judges that, that we don't do these things. Yeah, but we're looking at the financial side, aren't we really? W with Brian Well I know I mean it we're struggling to get judges, aren't we, and it's not going to get any better, it's going No. to get worse if anything, not better the way things are going. We're obviously obviously thinking along these lines Is there? He, he was apparently and then on the Saturday or Sunday h h he, he started to reject so he had to go back in. Oh. Yeah. Where did he used to live? Yes. Where was he from? So all, all the A class judges are getting a little bit long in the tooth now No more questions? No one, no more questions? I'd like er to thank Alan for being involved erm a proposer and seconder? Proposed by Steve seconded by Right er please can we have your report please. Well it's not much, I mean You would like to see more on the tables Well we have had more fish out yeah we have had more fish out in the show Pardon? Where did we come in the show ? Ninth Ninth Ninth that wasn't too bad. I shall put in the report must do better! do better! we do want more fish out. any comment about the s the sort of format of the table show do we want to change them at all How, how did it work out on the champion of champions night with having the the table show, the full table show that we cancelled when Danny came er how did it work er did it work out comfortably? Oh yeah Er I felt, I've been after Danny for nearly twelve months to come see and not been able to get him on the night I want him the only night he was able, was available was I think it was one night when we had something else on I can't remember what it was. Erm I think it was an inter-club actually, oh the inter-club table show was the only night he could manage and that was no good to us so erm we, we the only way we could do it was to t bring him the night that there was a full table show transfer the full table show to the champion of champions judge that first and put the winning fish into the champion of champions and I know, well it's gonna be woof you know a rush and that will, oh well, never mind. Least we knew we'd get some extra fish didn't we? yeah it's good that they had a fairer chance of getting on to the tables twenty minutes So erm I'm you kn I don't propose to do that again because I wouldn't er I wouldn't arrange a speaker if we had a full table show but it's nice to know that it did work out because we were, I was forced into a corner a little bit erm and I think it was worth it because we as I say I've waited a long time for Danny and he was well worth listening to, I can listen to Danny for hours because he he just speaks and, and tells you about his fish, I'm, I'm very very fond of listening to Danny cos I think he gives a good talk. he has he the same problems that we've all had you know erm and yes he's, he's, he's very easy to listen to despite the fact that he's a southerner. But we'll forgive him that He comes from near Windsor, doesn't he, cos he said he has a mate has a fish shop in Windsor That's right often go to Windsor That's right. We was looking at a video erm it's an old one and it's called Fancy Fish and we were sorting our videos out to list 'em and then we'll make a list and then we'd let you have and then if you want a video and that, you know what you got and we were looking through this Fancy Fish and it's erm I don't know if you remember it, it shows an open show at Oxford Oh yeah, I think so. Yes I remember. Anyway it's an open show Yeah I think the and he's got longer hair. Yeah yeah Yeah Well he still looks young, I mean despite the fact that he's a grandfather I think twice over Grandfather for years been a grandfather for years. He's got a a Oh dear . Right er may I just make one comment on by bringing the table show with Danny and er th champion of champions it er it er I don't know how many people champion of champions, Can't hear you. you know, I, I couldn't bring all the fish I mean I just put some on the table I couldn't bring all the champion of champions Cos of the tank couldn't carry it. because of the time and the Yeah It probably would never happen again cos it was Yeah it was a lot of work Yes yes. We had no how many people showed on Monday?five of them? Yeah. There's a lot of it actually, it'd be nice if I realize that, you know I would say five of them five people in both departments champion of champions let's hope that it never happens again, you know, these things do happen. Well is on that, you know. There was yourself and , Jack and er You didn't bring any ? No I didn't bring any, no Erm that gentleman Was it the cold water temperature It could have been worse could have been worse. Would only be Couldn't have been really much better really, Well Yeah Well he was dashing out when I when I called him erm his wife answered the phone and she said you just him he's going out at the door so he came rushing back and I said I wanted him to judge champion of champions and the and I said there'll be two and he said, hang on, and he's write it down said I'll just stick it all at one and see to it when I come back, oh I gotta go and he went. Yeah. And that was it. Yeah yeah yeah. Well he, he appreciated at the previous table show on the sixth of October and that was a case when it was always you know, because Danny only told me on that night that he could come. Yeah. So it was all a hotchpotch, it was all and I had to do the the best I could for those who showed fish and that was the only way I could do it. Right er thanks Emily for your report. Any proposers and seconders? I'll propose Emily's report and, and in doing so I'd like to say thank you to her for her sterling work this year, I think she's done a terrific job erm and I'd like to thank her personally for the help she's given me over the year. I couldn't have managed without her. Any seconders? Got to get your name in the minutes somehow. Right, thanks Emily. Erm librarian's report sixty P and thirty P Oh is it? Thirty pence. Yeah well We auc we auctioned the books after as you know and erm so I I'll have to make a new list of what's left and let you have it. I know I, I will be against they take books out once or twice and then the older members don't take 'em out I mean I know it's difficult Yeah. having them at home I mean erm Yeah but they're still not They didn't they didn't take them out of the Joe you know erm er I think we get a saturation point and the thing that annoys me is that young fellow who came to the club had a got, we got a special went to the special trouble of getting a for him and I cannot get it off him and he lives up Newton way somewhere I've been to him three times I've been to that house and I've I've phoned three or four times and you can get no reply and I'm, I'm a bit cheesed off with it cos this is the second time small claims court. For want of a better word they're actually stolen books are stolen. I'll get it I'll get it back, I know where he lives. Do you? I mean Yes I've phoned and I've written three times and I've written to his mother our official letter, official no headed notepaper she's not there, she works as a nurse doesn't she? She's not in till nine o' clock. Well they anyway, were they? They were order it specially cos it's not a book you'd ask for often, is it I suppose. Yes I know er yes I er er I er er I, I think it's a good thing that people, if they ask for information, you've got to buy books to get them. But what's aggrieved me is that he's just waltzed off with it and not It looks like he just and come here just to get a book. I'll ask him and he's, he's just ignoring all the er That's right a letter that we're taking him to court I know there's a couple Erm yes. What was his name? Alan . Okay, a course on presentation skills. How many have been on a on a training course before? I know has so several of you have already been on a training course so you'll know the sort of er way in which we work and the way things happen. erm let me just let me just ask you first of all what is the value for you and for the company of of developing skills on presentations. What's the value? Respective clients Indeed, indeed so that's what you might use, yep What's the value, I mean what does it do what does it do for the company first of all? Promotes it Promotes it, so it's about image isn't it? It's about because the company after all is you it's a group of people and so er it's about putting over the right image so quality presentation to a client the image. What's the value to you as individuals? More confidence It gives you more confidence, yeah, what's it do for you within the company? Pushes your standing up oh that's what I thought yeah yeah yes well I mean you're right in a way Bob those people who seem to get on within a company some of them are people who seem to be able to say the right words at the right time don't they? They seem to be able to put their point of view over. They they're able to by by the way they present themselves they're able to demonstrate their value within the organisation and as Bob says hopefully then it increases your status. Yeah although the tape's on I'll still say I'll still say I mean there are people within the company as within any company I'm sure who you when you get to know their technical ability or lack thereof you think well how have they managed to get where they have but they just seem to be able they seem to have this ability to be able to be in the right place at the right time. Well yes but also say the right words at the right time yeah? yep. So being able to present effectively and put your point of view across is very important within within the company context for the company in order to to project the right image and also to pro project your own right image. To show your value, to demonstrate your worth for the organisation. Now as you probably know this is a level nine course it's a it's a course on which a platform is erected for other courses as Gordon said then the the introduction to management you have to make a short presentation don't you but it doesn't concentrate just on this. This concentrates on it but builds builds the platform on which other courses on advanced presentation skills and negotiation skills team presentation skills are all founded and so you're able to er continue through er the courses. Now we we just mentioned Tarmac's Tarmac's objectives let's just go through them er after the course you should be able to make clear logical and well organised case presentations, fine. er you should be able to display more confidence, I mean that's what Mike suggested it gives you more confidence to be able to do this. To make more effective preparation for speaking, to maintain a higher standard of discussion at all times and to display a more positive reaction to questions. Okay so those are the objectives that Tarmac have. Now I hope that by tomorrow afternoon you're able to say yes all those objectives have been met but it may well be and I'm sure it is that you as individuals have other objectives, you have other issues that you want to address er or put more emphasis on during these two days. So what I'd like you to do if you just turn to page one sort of a couple of pages in the first one that's numbered. You'll have the opportunity to write down your objectives. You see towards the bottom er we pose a few questions there, I'm going to ask you in a few minutes to introduce yourselves and to say what what sort of presentations you make at the moment. Now don't think in terms of presentations just as standing up in front of an audience. It may well be that you don't actually do that, it may be that you have one to one meetings with people or group meetings er which could be when you have to put across your point of view. Those could be classed as presentations. So when was the last time you made a presentation and then what I'd like you to do and there are three lines there you may only have one you may have two, three, four objectives just spend a couple of minutes now and jot down what it is you would like to get out of this course by tomorrow afternoon what you would like to say you've achieved on this course. Just just er pop those down. Right, erh what I'd like to do then is er I say could you just introduce yourself or what you're working on at the moment where you work and then the sort of presentations that you make er and then give us one of your objectives so that by the time we've got right round the room we'll er hopefully have everybody. Tony would you start us off? erm I work for Alright erm which is quite management at right erm I suppose one of the er things I'd like to er get out of this would be a bit more Okay so putting all the that positive Yeah sort of ums and ahs Oh right okay okay so I mean are are you saying that's about confidence? Is it or ? Well maybe , maybe, maybe thinking ahead too much er right, okay okay so better preparation so that when you make the presentation it's more effective, yeah? Yeah I mean you're trying to think ahead, you're umming and ahing So effective preparation yeah effective preparation so that you so that when you you stand up here you're more confident you're more yeah Good, do you do you make present any sort of presentations ? Well I meet clients quite a bit erm the last one I actually made was last week Oh really To Tarmac financial directors directors How do you how do you feel it went? It went pretty well actually, the feedback I got from my immediate boss fairly pleased with it was pleased with it Good Obviously Right yeah, good okay good. So effective preparation. Mike. I'm a senior with South West I management course I cover site planning right the way through. erm been in the game now for something like forty years. Started as an apprentice and worked my way through to management. Erm this course or mainly my presentations are written Okay er we in fact have a tender Mm frequent the main discussion er was in fact erm internally with our director right information or what have you right and also to our site teams cover successfully the job and explain to them how the teams were built up right, okay the main thing I suppose. This was dropped on me out of the blue, I must admit this course Was it , okay? Right erm would be more confidence in presentation Okay How to deal with How to project and verbally How to give how to give an image of confidence yes Okay Verbally not written, written Yes sure, yeah written yes yes absolutely, oh yes this this course is entirely about verbal presentation yep great thanks. Jeff erm my name is and I work for my objective of this really is to reappraise my presentation skills. I did this course erm about ten years ago right so this is very much a refresher course okay so you're you're wanting some some feedback yes er right Was that with with Jeremy? yes yeah fine, okay great thanks. Sarah. I work my main aim on this course is to gain confidence right I don't do many presentations mainly because I work in a small team right, right so it's about confidence Great thanks. Bob Senior Midland area and I've been working on a job in Coventry which is basically work er what I hope to get mainly out of this course is an increased level of personal confidence so I can overcome basic nervousness when speaking. how to handle the nerves, I'll say right now and half of you may want to walk out of the room. I don't have a magic wand I do not have a magic wand that you know take three deep breaths turn round twice and your nerves will disappear yep. So if that's what wanting we've got problems straightaway erm but certainly we will discuss what to do about that yes and to recognise them and to understand why, yes, fine but I don't have a magic wand. I'd I'd be a millionaire if I did wouldn't I? Rob . Senior Engineer for Midlands area I'm er presently on seventeen million pound office development the job's completion erm my presentations are basically from site labour to erm professional engineers and architects yep on a one to one basis or or to small meetings Mm What I hope to gain on the course is to be able to speak more confidently and to get over the nerves. right, great thanks. Gordon Senior Engineer for Midlands region, currently been working on the developments which is design built and development gangs of which yep erm I have er one to one dealing with subcontractors engineers the architects and site meetings not a great preparation but there is more or less every day to day right erm I hope to get out of this more personal confidence and more talk more clearly So it's to be clear in what you're saying to be able to explain yourself clearly so it's about clarity right The need to make it clear so that people understand without having to sort of keep coming back and asking again and again, yep, great, thanks. John I'm I'm the senior south west I currently work schemes my main aim on the course is er to gain more confidence right okay what sort of. Do you make presentations now? meetings yep so it's it's about meetings? yep great, thanks, Tom erm, my name's from Edinburgh a couple of jobs one which is the sort of presentations I do tends to be one to one the hardest one for me as I say meetings with quite a lot of people there right erm, I think I want to try and improve my presentation right, so it's the actual presentation skills themselves that's right and what we actually do when we're standing up so that it becomes more effective yeah? Great. my name's I'm from Tarmac Construction Plant at depot I'm office manager and I'm also in charge of the stores hiring all the plant and equipment for all the sites in our area right I also as many stores as possible of course erm I don't make presentations as such but erm I do have one to one discussions with on the sites on what plant they need and stores right, yep basically I hope to be more effective in talking to as I can right, so it's about persuasion isn't it? yeah right,Mike I'm I'm a site agent for Tarmac Construction at erm I attend quite a few erm presentations really, tender interviews often going to the clients management meetings, site meetings and then like a lot of you the one to one situation. sure apart from most of those right erm I'd like to be able to present something in front of me which prompts me a bit better than I do at the moment I tend to get lost in what's in front of me. right, right so that's that's partly to do with you your preparation isn't it but it's if I put the word script yeah we'll I know what we mean yep how do you prepare what what you physically have in front of you so that you're able to put the point over effectively yeah right yep great, Dave morning, I'm I'm a Site Agent for Tarmac Refurb based in Birmingham yes erm, the bulk of my presentations are obviously site based, site meetings,meetings meetings. I have been involved in meetings right for a variety of different contracts er my last presentation was a site meeting last Thursday right last week and er what I want to get out of course is obviously increased confidence and skill at sort of maintaining the aims of the meeting or the presentation so it's getting your point across and achieving your objective keeping the meetings as precise because I tend to my meetings wandering and Ah, okay now that's that's keeping to the theme of the meeting yes, okay now that's about meetings as such isn't it which is a which is almost another subject but I know what you mean it's about timing in a way yes, that's what you're saying? We're not gonna get into anything about chairmanship of meetings on this course, there is a meeting's course that does that so I don't want to promise you something that I'm not gonna I'm not gonna be able to deliver I know what you mean certainly in terms of timing of your presentation keeping t time with your presentation we'll be looking at that and help you achieve that. So can we can we keep it to that? yep, fine okay, I ju as I say i don't want to promise you something that that I know I'm not going to be able to achieve in these two days because that's not yep certainly if you want to talk about that you know as a separate thing outside the time then then we'll be able to help you do that, okay? Okay yep As I say I don't want to promise you something and and then and then at the end you say well hang on we didn't look at that because that's not within the agenda of of these two days. Okay, so what we're looking at over these two days and what in order for you to be able to say yes we've achieved the objectives er by tomorrow is how to use that time that we have to prepare to to the most er efficient and effective so that e the preparation you know when you've prepared it that yes when I stand up to speak I'm gonna be able to put these points over effectively and make the presentation memorable. Confidence and in a way that attaches to also nerves, how to be able to stand up and appear confident, appear that you know what you're talking about and you are you can confidently put your message across. Some feedback now Jeff said okay he's done this course before and he's looking for feedback to to see the level of his competence at this point, but everybody er I'm sure you will agree by the end of tomorrow will have got feedback. Feedback on how effective you are and how your effectiveness has increased over the two days. Because when all said and done if at the end of two days you don't feel that you're any better at making a presentation then when you started then why have you been here for two days. So certainly in terms of feedback erm and how to deal with these nerves. What to understand to understand what they're about. To make sure that we're able to put our point across clearly so that we speak in a clear way so that people don't have any er doubts as to what you actually mean. When we've prepared how do we then effectively present. What are the skills we need to stand up and be able to present effectively? How to put a point over persuasively. Persuasion is about changing people's minds. So how to put over a point that supports the point of view that you have when you want to change something. What to do in terms of scripts, what do we physically have here that we're going to read from or not read from as the case may be. Erm and how we can speak to time and how we can control that time and make sure that even with interruptions which is what in a way what a meeting is about a discussion, that we're able to stick to the time that we've allocated for the particular meeting or presentation that we've got. So if by the end of tomorrow we can say yes we've achieved all that have have we got a course? Yep okay. These these are a measure aren't they they're a measure of the quality of what we're going to do over the next two days and therefore I will come back to these tomorrow afternoon I will check through them and if everybody can say yes yes I'm satisfied with that then we've achieved what we set out to achieve today. Okay Now as those of you who have been on a course will know er on a training course one thing I particularly ask you and we all do is to be open minded. We're here for two days and I'm going to present to what to some of you will be some new ideas some new concepts that you've perhaps never come across before. So I ask you to be open minded they may seem a little bit off the wall to start with, but everything that we do is done for a purpose to achieve er what we're wanting to achieve and what I do want to achieve is by the end of tomorrow is to have given you a system. Now you might think presentation and a system do they go together? What I'll do is give you a system whereby even at the drop of a hat you will be able to put together a few words and speak with clarity, speak coherently and be able to put your point of view across. You know the situations where you're in a I don't know a meeting in some presentation and somebody wants you to give a vote of thanks have you ever had that,I had that Birmingham University one time. I'm a member of the Institution of Electrical Engineers and er because I'm by background an electronics engineer and I was at a meeting there where a chap was giving a talk on design express lifts you know at Northampton and the Chairman stood up and introduced doctor whoever he was sat down turned round to me in the second row and said could you give a vote of thanks at the end. So I'm hoping that this system that I give you will allow you to do that, anybody been a best man at a wedding? What do you say at a wedding. Oh dear me so I'm hoping that the system that I give you will allow you to deal with all those situations as well as make a longer presentation where you do have some preparation time. So be opened minded. I take on board these ideas for these two days. At the end of two days you say well fine but it's not for me I can't do anything about that when you walk out the room but I hope my objective is to convince you that here is something that like lots of other people in time I can it's a very very useful system. .. Try it out when you leave here, try it out in the meetings and the presentations that you have to make I encourage you to do that, to try it out in your day to day working and for those people who have either already been on this course or are coming on this course after you that you meet encourage them to do the same, because there's nothing like encouragement and feedback from each other to be able to use these new ideas. And of course if you've got any questions in the two days I'm not just going to er at you all the time you know it's participation is this so any questions that you have any comments you want to make please feel free to make them at any time it's not going to throw me. You have a set of notes here now I'm not gonna start at page one and work right through to page whatever it is erm they are there for you to take away for you to make notes during these two days er and for you to take away so that they're they're for revision and er there are as Bob's just discovering pages where a I'll ask you to make make specific notes er that I'll supply to you as we go along. Okay then let me just by way of er introduction er to the concepts and the content of what we're going to do over the next two days let me just put a very small fraction of a picture up here. I don't know if anybody's seen this before. Anybody want to stake a month's salary on what this is a picture of? A church A church, possibly yeah. I think as I as I reveal a bit more you'll get it. Tower Bridge Tower Bridge, right absolutely, yeah gives it away doesn't it? Now a daft question in a way but how do we know it's Tower Bridge? seen it before You've seen it before yeah that's right you you recognise it from the shape and and er because you've either seen pictures of it before or you've been there. Anybody like to guess roughly when this was drawn, fifties, sixties, forties, seventies? Seventies you think, sixties fifties to sixties Possibly something like that, yeah. How do we how do we guess that? Mike I mean Because knowing London and knowing Tower Bridge those buildings over the far side aren't there any more Right absolutely, so it's about the horizon isn't it? So we we we recognise by the horizon possibly when when this was drawn. If you went and stood in the same place now then obviously it would look different in that sense, wouldn't it so the background if you like would be different wouldn't it with high rise and maybe a different . So the horizon the background would be would be different, but what would be the same? the bridge The bridge itself wouldn't it? The two towers and the bridge itself would be the same, and in a way that that's what we can look at an analogy to do with er presentation skills. We've got two towers two things that are fundamental and don't change. They're the same now as they were in the fifties when making presentations and that's about the skills you need when you stand up to speak and the skills you need in the preparation phase so the two towers of presentation skills are about the preparation and the presentation itself. The design and the delivery. The background changes and in a way the background is about things like the visual aids, flipcharts and er the use of video and er even these peripherals you can put on a on a overhead projector now that plug into a computer. I don't know if anybody's ever seen those but you can actually have a computer at the side and a thing that sits on there and you can change and up on the screen it will appear what's on the screen on the computer. Things like that. So those are all if you like the background, the things that do change but the fundamentals that stay the same are the design and the delivery and although we'll look a little bit although we've er I have to say with the numbers we've got here today it will only be a little bit about things like question and visual aids and because of the time factor if you think about it if we've twelve people to make four presentations or we've eight people to make four presentations time is a little bit different and with with twelve we don't perhaps have the luxury of time that we would with eight people which is what the course was originally designed for. So but nevertheless we will look at a little bit at those peripheral things, but we're going to concentrate mainly on the design and on the delivery of a presentation so that's what we want to what we want to look at over the next two days. But of course if we're going to do that we need somewhere to start and where we're going to start is that I'm going to ask you to each to make a presentation, a very short presentation. So what I'd like you to do if you haven't got some paper there's stacks of paper here and what I'd like you to do is grab a piece of paper and write down what I'm going to tell you. Okay I'm going to ask each of you to speak for three minutes so you might like to jot that down. A three minute presentation Okay. Okay here we go then. Well the first question I want to ask you is how do you feel you got on in those presentations. Got it over and done with Got it over and done with yes, yes somebody somebody dried up did they nobody sort of er I wish it was true Well okay. The the first question is this is this thing about nerves isn't it because that's the first feeling you have when you got up get up here is and as said I'm dry already and I haven't even been up there and done it yet the voice is dry and you know then you feel a bit shaky and all that sort of thing and why do we why do we feel nervous? a fool of ourselves Sorry in case we make a fool of ourselves Well that's right it's that fear isn't it of of getting it wrong lack of confidence getting it wrong, it's a lack yes that's right that's right it's it's probably a slightly unusual situation as well isn't it here you this isn't something you do every single day is to stand up. Quite so it's about feeling you're going to make a fool of yourself, I mean what's the feeling when you come in and you sit down first thing in the morning you look all round at the other eleven people You don't want to stand out That's right you want to blend in but what's the real feeling what's the thought in your head? They're all cleverer than you are Everybody's better than than yeah, are we I mean you know you've seen you've seen twelve presentations well you've seen eleven presentations plus you've done your own now there is that fear isn't there. Everybody's bound to be better than I am, yes. There's some sort of standard that we think we ought to have in order to do this thing right and we're we're below everybody else, yes. Isn't that true, is that yes the real feeling and we feel we've got to come up to some sort of a standard. Now when somebody else stood up here if somebody had totally dried up or been so nervous they couldn't do it what would you have felt. Sorry for them Absolutely, we all want want each other to do well don't we? And it's it's true in any presentation there's nothing more uncomfortable is there than somebody in the middle of a presentation that you're watching struggling that's right you really feel sorry for them. So standing up here there aren't eleven twelve people ready to shoot you down are there. They all want you to do well. That's right they're all with me, yeah that's right because you know that you've just been there or you're going to be there yourself. But this this nervous thing is a very primitive instinct and I'm just coming up to a word I never can pronounce so you're going to have to help me with this one. This is where I get nervous because I know I've come into a word I know I can't pronounce. In the br at the back of the brain there is the pi pituitary thank you pituitary gland biology well done, I never can get that word out I stumble with it every time and that gets a signal from the brain that says this is a difficult situation this is something I'm not used to this is some I it's very primitive it's it's from the days in the jungle or whatever er a fear of fright over absolute it's fight or flight, and that's why you start breathing quicker because the blood wants more oxygen because it's ready to run or to fight because the muscles, it is it's true it's absolutely true and this shaking is the limbs are ready to spring into action one way or another and this gland injects adrenalin or sorry it sends a signal to the adrenal glands which sit on the top of the kidneys yeah, and pumps adrenalin into the blood which again is something that makes you ready and that's what all these things about about a dry throat a wonky voice a shaking limbs is all about a very primitive instinct of fight or flight. Now trying to think of a situation where you might come up here and have no nerves whatsoever. I mean I know it's difficult When nobody else is here Sorry When nobody else is here When nobody else is here but I mean one definition of that is that you're asleep yeah. If there's no sort of arousal of any sort yep. Let's just plot a graph When we stand up here we're wanting to perform right we're wanting to do an activity we have some level of anxiety. Now we've just said there needs to be some level somewhere if you're right down this end of the curve here you're either asleep or dead so there's some peak performance at some level of anxiety or arousal and as the anxiety increases the performance drops off. Okay. But you have to have some level of arousal has to be something pumping round you round your blood your brain has to be working in some way to be able to perform. So we have some peak okay at which we are performing. Right down this other end of the curve the level of anxiety is so high that performance is zero, that's when you freeze. I mean there was a classic case a couple of years ago of a lady who was pushing a baby in a pram across a zebra crossing and as she was half way across out of the corner of her eye she saw a truck thundering towards her which was quite clearly wasn't going to stop and that you know a sort of fairly anxious situation, and she froze. She could not move. She absolutely could not move because her level of arousal was so high she had no performance her performance being walking in that case Well but I mean that's an example and as I say at this end where you've no arousal you're either asleep or dead, there's no sort of performance performance of any sort and we talk about having those butterflies in the stomach don't we? We talk about the butterflies and that that's to do with this this effect of the the adrenalin in the system. Now the professional presenter is the one who can get them to fly in formation . It's it's not about being able to get rid of them totally and we agree that we need some sort of level of arousal it's being able to perform despite them to use that arousal to put into an effective presentation, and that's what this two days is about is getting those butterflies for you to fly in formation. To be able to actually present effectively whilst still having those butterflies whilst still having that that slightly anxious feeling. I get it, I get it every time I come into one of these but I I hope that I've got it in got them in formation. Now the purpose of therefore of this training course and any any training course is to do this is to be able to handle the arousal and increase your level of performance and even get the peak to move that way so for any level of arousal you're getting better performance but you're also able to handle a bit more butterflies a bit more of the nerves in order to perform effectively, and apart from a training course like this how do you achieve that? Experience Experience, which is based on Practice practice, doing it yep. So when I said to Bob this morning was it Bob, I said don't I don't have a magic wand that's gonna get rid of them but what I hope I'm gonna give you over these two days is a system whereby you can use that and can support you so you're able to effectively present despite having the nerves and be able to put over your point of view effectively, yeah? How do you feel about that yeah okay. Yeah Everybody everybody happy well I you just sort of went like that and I wasn't quite sure whether you was sort it was an early morning Oh sorry so that's that's what it's what it's about so what we want to do then over these next two days is to develop the skills of design and delivery and will allow us to do that allow us to improve our performance despite the fact that we do have the nerves and by practice by doing it by putting yourself in the situation where you have to make a presentation and almost as one chap said one time sitting there actually with your sitting there remembering he said actually volunteer to make presentations to the other people there . But it's it's about about doing that and about being able to practice and use these skills and techniques so that we can improve performance. So let's let's look at what we can do then. Well okay this morning what I'd like to do in the half hour or so that we've got before lunch is to talk about the skills we need when we actually come up here to deliver then this afternoon we'll look at that feedback from the video and what you did and then we'll move on to the skills of design, the preparation skills. So when we come up here to make a presentation let's put aside at the moment the content of what we actually say what do we what do we need to think about? What are the areas that we need to think about, the skills that we need to develop? The way you look The way you look, your appearance in a way is what you're saying, yeah Your stance Your stance, the way you stand that's right, those sorts of things Body language Body language, yes we'll talk a little bit about body language and take that just a little bit further The people who you're delivering to delivering the presentation to and whether they understand Right okay, whether they understand yes so how you get the contact with them, yes. How you maintain their interest and how you get feedback from them. Okay let's let's put those sorts of ideas, you turn to page three in the notes you'll see there's a proforma there Okay, so we're going to concentrate on the left hand side for the moment. The delivery skills thing. Okay now we talked about things like as Tony said body language er we talked about things like er contact with the audience but what fundamentally are we doing when we stand up here? Talking Talking right. So what's that about? Well I mean what's er what do we have to think about Communication Yeah, communication in general possibly about breathing about the way we use the voice yes, and of course the words we actually use Accent Accent possibly yeah. Well we'll talk about that because Joanne you and I er have accents don't we? Yeah That are not the standard English shall we say something like that. So let's think of all first of all then about the voice. Now there's a word I'm going to use right now which is a technical term in a way and that is is er the technical term for the study of language and how we speak the word what we say and how we say it. It goes under the lovely title of paralinguistics Para yeah that's right yeah. Paralinguistics is is the study of the words we say and how we say them. So quite obviously the how we say things is all to do with the voice isn't it? Now I've got four letter Ps to do with the voice er and what I want to do is is think about the comparison of aspects of the voice when we have a normal one to one conversation and compare that with the same aspects when we're making a presentation standing in front of a group. First of all power. The power of the voice. How do we need to adjust the power when we're making a presentation? To the size of the audience To the size absolutely, to the size of the audience so if we say a one to one we've got a certain level of conversational power if you say so with a group like this it has to be Just raised slightly doesn't it yes and obviously if you've got fifty people and you don't have a microphone or anything then it becomes even more so. You get much above about fifty people you perhaps do need a some technical assistance with the power. So the power needs to be just slightly slightly raised okay. Now another P, anybody think of other Ps to do with the voice. Pitch Pitch, that's that's yes. Now pitch is to do with er technically to do with the frequency isn't it the the high or low pitch like on a piano from high notes to low notes? What do we need to ensure in terms of pitch when we're speaking to a group of people? Variety Sorry Variety Variety that's right there has to be variety because because if you talk in a monotone all the time then it all becomes rather boring doesn't it? So there's got to be variations in the pitch. Power, pitch, there's one I want to squeeze in between but I mean it doesn't matter. Pace pace, pace, yeah. In a way projection is sort of with power. Pace that's right you've been cheating and looking on looking on the next page That's right. The pace okay. The speed at which we speak okay. yeah Power and pace and pitch and pause. Yes okay. let's just go back to the pace then. How does the pace want to be compared with normal con one to one conversation perhaps? slightly slower Slightly slower just so that the words come over a bit clearer yes, so so people can actually take in what you say okay. Now the pause, how about the pause? To get attention You do don't you it gives emphasis it attracts people's attention sorry Pregnant pause Pregnant pau that's right a pregnant pause isn't it? I mean But it's perhaps one of the most difficult things when you start out doing presentations isn't it. Because you get that silence in the room and mmm you want to fill it so but you're right the use of the pause effective and particularly with a variation in pitch that gives that emphasis the two combined together can be very very effective. Okay so the power the pace the pitch and the pause all to do with voice and slight variations on those compared with normal one to one conversation Okay. So that's about the voice itself now under paralinguistics also comes that the concept of words. Words are are I mean what are words? A simple thing to say but what are words? Expression Yes er but what do they express then Sorry Feelings could express feelings yes. Facts thoughts Facts feelings yes thoughts absolutely there there there a code aren't they? I mean if you speak three different languages you could use three different words to put the same sort of thought of a picture dog, chien, hound there's probably an Italian and a and that but if you speak the languages then different words different codes if you like are for the same idea. So that's what words are about. Now brr any anybody here like me from Yorkshire? No you're from slightly further north. You're from Yorkshire? Sometime ago Sometime ago right so you may catch this, and you're from slightly further north than that I think? Right okay. Anybody from the Liverpool area? No no okay. If I said to John and Joanne erm that I saw a boy running up the ginnel no you understand? You do you do? Yeah I know what you said but I dunno what a ginnel is. Okay a snicket I don't know what a snicket is either No No Yes But I know what you're saying Alright yeah, okay you see the point that that it's it's words what the heck's he talking No no I know exactly Oh you did, yeah it's it's er no but I mean in terms of the actual word you don't know what it is No er it's it's about geography isn't it? er coming from different areas of the country. Right let me just explain then just just for the sake of completeness. erm in the days when they had terraced houses back to back terraced houses erm well anywhere in the country I guess but but where I come from it was fine for the people who lived with their doors on the on the road but the people who lived at the other side of the block they couldn't get from the road so every so often down the down the terrace they had a little alley way an entry I think you'd probably call it in Scotland, don't they? We talking about this and I was saying about coming from construction I says I've says I've to go up the cut like Oh the cut yeah Where I call the cut, and he's going the cut what cut that's the canal I says up the cut between the two the two buildings she said no that's the alley That's the alley, yeah, or the ginnel or the snicket you know or in Liverpool they call it a jigger Or the cut Yeah so you see the point, if you're making a presentation and you use words like that based on where you come from the geography you know your regional variations then it's a bit it's a bit difficult for er effective communication isn't it? So we have think about making sure that we use or if we use a word and people don't understand it Explain it Explain it, absolutely Now so that's about words based on geographical variations or regional variations within the country er er something to be avoided but what about in the industry you're in. Jargon Jargon. Absolutely yeah. Now there's a word that covers that and that the the choice of words based on on getting it right for the audience particularly in terms of jargon is what is called wordsmith. Cho choosing words in if if you think of a parallel with blacksmith, a blacksmith takes base metal and sort of bends it and shapes it to the appropriate shape. Choosing the right words for the audience particularly based on jargon is what's called wordsmith. Now somebody said they got involved in prequalification meetings, yeah. Mike who might you have as an audience in a prequalification er hang on er prequalification everybody understand prequalification? Let's make sure we didn't use any term that everybody understands yeah. understand what Right exactly because you might you might have the client or a representative of the client as well as architects and people who would so you have to be careful don't you in terms of using the right words. So your presentation would be simplified Simplified that's right. Where the jargon might arise would be perhaps in response to questions from an architect for instance yes. Technical yeah the technical people but you have to ensure don't you that with with your audience that you understand who they are but if you don't then you have to keep it to a common denominator. Yeah and that's about wordsmith, choosing the right words for the for the appropriate to the audience and of course jargon the industry jargon erm is the thing you've got to watch. Okay so that's about paralinguistics about the way we use the voice in a presentation and the way we chose the words so that we have effective communication with our audience. Okay. Now was it Tony who said about body language yep? Yep Now, body language if we move on to that. If you read books on body language then erm that says erm I'm not quite sure what I'm talking about yes, I'm not being truthful and that means that that I'm really not being really very sincere or again I'm unsure. But what could it also mean? itchy ear You've got an itchy ear or an itchy chin absolutely yeah. That it exactly that. So body language if you read a lot of the books on body language it takes one single action and it interprets it based on that. Now if we take it just one step further, there was a lady well there still is a lady called and she did some research, what she was trying to look at was the the sort of body language if you like the actions that people er use and associate that to their personality and she looked particularly at people who were open positive communicators truthful I suppose but people who were open communicators and looked at the sort of things they did and also at people who perhaps weren't quite so honest and open and truthful. And she didn't take individual actions what she took was what she called clusters. Clusters of actions so she looked at things like the use of the hands the use of the feet the use of the eyes erm and what she called the centre line. The body's centre line and she equated that and what she said was in terms of the hands that people who were open and positive communicators used on average more symmetrical open palm gestures than individual or closed palm gestures non-symmetrical. And if you look at there are certain er types of people in history who use very non-symmetrical hand gestures who perhaps you might say were not the most open communicators in the world and if you take a film of of erm Hitler and er people of that ilk in the second world war and you analyse almost frame by frame you'll see that and count the number of non-symmetrical hand gestures you will find that they're quite high as a percentage. Now I'm not saying that we stand here and all we do is that because when you want to emphasise a point then sometimes a a single non-symmetrical a single hand gesture is more appropriate. But on average you will find er and you look at people in the pub you look in the bar tonight at the people having conversations and see how many symmetrical hand gestures there are. It's quite interesting. What I'm talking about here are not things that are unnatural but things that er will come naturally as you relax into your presentation. Are you suggesting that Absolutely, and you will find when we look on the video the number of people who held up a piece of paper if you hold things up and I'm holding this now because I'm about to write but if if you stand here and hold a piece of paper then it's very difficult to make symmetrical palm gestures, open palm gestures. So that is one thing as I develop this theme you'll you'll see. So of course the next question comes well well how do you manage to put it down, I guess?hands we'll come on to that. Okay? Now another thing as I said that she looked at in terms of clusters was the centre line. Now ladies and gentlemen we all know that there are certain parts of the body that it is quite natural that we like to protect Such as a direct free kick. erm and and ladies perhaps would tend to do the same sort of thing. Now what that does of course is close off the centre line and what found was that people who were positive communicators as they spoke to somebody they presented the centre line to them. Now if I'm presenting my centre line to Tony and speaking to him that feels fine yeah, but if I talk to you Dave over my shoulder like that I mean how does that feel? Talk to you and tell you something you know It feels as though I don't care lack of interest lack of interest that's right. So presenting the centre line and okay we're going to come on to the eye contact as well in a moment, presenting the centre line with eye contact means that it feels much more positive for the audience in terms of the delivery. So the centre line is an is an important aspect of Now if you're holding your notes yeah I I mean that's not a very open sort of centre line is it because I've got this as a barrier. In a way this standing behind and it's unfortunate we have to have something as big as this table er and if I stand behind it then you know Gordon's not getting my full centre line yep. So standing behind a barrier is another thing. The third aspect the third aspect that er noticed was movement of the feet whilst in this sort of a situation. In any communication and Mike used that term and this is what this is about in communication there is a gap it doesn't matter whether it's you know writing a letter making a phone call or just standing this sort of distance away. There's a gap over which these words have to flow. Yes, there's a gap in this communication. Now if I stood here all the time for two days and presented to you just standing here do your eyes move have to move if you're watching me all the time your eyes are fixed aren't they in one position? Yeah and the problem is that that because you have to look in one position it means that that the whole thing becomes boring and and your interest starts to drift. But if I'm moving around slightly like this and you're having to follow with your eyes as I'm making my presentation it brings variety to it brings that bit of variety like you said earlier that it brings some interest to it. So just just small movements of the feet I'm not talking well there's a classic one I had when I was at college we had a lecturer imagine a big lecture theatre you know two hundred people and there was there was a board and he presented his lecture like this,plenty of foot movement but he presented his lecture like and he just walked up and down. Well I mean what do you end up doing if somebody makes a presentation like that. Give up watching You either give up watching or you keep a score don't you, yeah? How many times he's gonna walk in the next minute you know let's time. You don't listen to what he's saying because you know just it just becomes so it takes your attention away. But but small movement a little bit of movement around and some people did as we'll see when we look at the video this afternoon, but some people you know grew roots er it becomes that way. Again it's part of the nervousness yeah I'm gonna put me notes down there and I'm not gonna hold them I you know I don't want to be anywhere away from them so it's all tied up with the preparation as well. But some movement of the feet er is important to keep variety . So that's what er worked on connection between the cluster of movements and sort of advanced body language if you like and the personality so someone who is perceived as using ja symmetrical palm gestures and open centre line and some movement in the feet is seen more as a as a positive communicator, a more open communicator, and it enhances the quality of the presentation. Now there was one other thing that was mentioned. The third aspect was contact with the audience, yeah. Audience contact. Why is it important to have audience contact in your presentation? Just to make sure that they think that you're talking to them Absolutely, so they feel involved don't they? They feel involved as part of the presentation. That helps the audience feel involved but what does it do for you as a presenter? What can it do? helps you get your point across Yes indeed it also gives you some Gauge the reaction yeah gauge the reaction some feedback. Gauge people's reaction you know as I said to you earlier are you with that Mike because of all I had contact and I thought I saw you I dropped off And you dropped off, well that that is the other important thing isn't it because part of the feedback is you know am I interesting everybody you know? Are they with me on this or am I boring the pants off them yeah? And you may then want to adjust the presentation. So audience contact. What's the what's the primary method of of getting contact with the audience? Well the method Eyes looking at them Yeah using the eyes, yeah, okay. Both to to to feel to make them feel involved and to er gauge the reaction gauge how things are going so you can er get some feedback on how you're doing. Okay You need to keep their interest don't you? Oh absolutely, yes, I mean I mean the effect Sure erm no amount of audience contact will compensate for a boring subject. Yeah, oh yes I erm erm I'm not saying that and that's when we come on to the the design and the content that we put in. Yeah, you're absolutely right very important point yeah no amount of eye contact is going to compensate for something that that doesn't hold their interest. Okay. What else then what other methods do we have besides having eye contact what else might we do to involve the audience to make them feel involved? Questions Yes, absolutely so questions er a very definite way of involving the audience and again it gives a measure of feedback doesn't it because if you get the right answer you know that they are with you and you know they are understanding what you have to say. But obviously if there's some hesitation over it then perhaps you just need to step back a stage in what you're saying and er er go over it again to for clarity, and Tony what's another way of involving the audience? Well you've got to get them to participate but I suppose you would do if you question them Well yes I guess you would. Jeff what's another way that you might make the audience feel that they're involved? Mike Well yes okay that's a possibility and that's something that we'll come on to tomorrow. But in terms of audience contact, Sarah Jokes Well yeah yeah a bit of humour a bit of humour Smile at them Smile at them well yeah okay. Bob, another way of involving the audience making them feel part of it Ask them to relate their experiences Yes okay but that in a way comes under questions doesn't it yes. Ask them yes Look directly at them Well yeah that's eye contact Well well done thank you I got it with the fourth one Yeah that's right that's right you were just waiting for me to say Tom weren't you yes yes that's fine. And some of you some of you did that this morning although you may not have realised it er but you said well well like Rob said and er just just making people feel part of it by by using their names and that's exactly the purpose of having these plaques in front and why I asked you to to use erm to put your name on them is so that we can do that. So that we can use people's names as part of the presentation and yeah yeah you know he actually noticed what I said and that sort of thing. So they feel really part of er part of it. Sometimes I've er Okay so it seems like it seems like a terrific amount to think about while you're standing here doesn't it as well as thinking about what you're actually the content of what you're actually going to say. But a lot of these things come quite naturally er I hope we'll see on when we look at the video that really I don't think anybody had a major problem with the voice er and the words as well when you're talking about two million pounds so in terms of the voice I don't believe anybody has any major problems. There may be one or two when we might just say well perhaps just a little bit more volume but it's not perhaps just er slacken off on the pace a little bit. So I don't think in terms of paralinguistics anybody here has a major problem. But when we come to look at the cluster and the and the audience contact then then you know we may see something a little bit different, Okay but er those are the important aspects things like things like whoops the use of the hands you know several people put their hands in their pockets or put them behind their back or something like that. Now that is you know what do you do with these things I mean they're a nuisance when it comes to making a presentation. The secret I find and you may over the next day or day and a half to a couple of days you may well see me just do that occasionally I'll just throw my hands back down to me side. If they get in if they start getting in the way the best thing to do is just let them relax to the side and try and forget about them, I know it's difficult to forget about them but just to the conscious effort with the hands is just to put them at the side. Then as you start to make the point you'll find your hands will come up naturally and bend from the elbows it sounds crazy to say but if if you suddenly go coo I've got everything in me pocket but Just do that that, that's what I find is the best thing to do and then carry on with what you have to say and then the gestures become quite natural because all of this this is is not I'm not trying to six pairs of opposites and then expanded by Okay now that that's fine but how do you move on and where do you move on to in order to get that structured thought pattern? If you're going to come and stand and present something to somebody there's got to be a reason for it? Yes, there must be be a reason and as I'm sure, I mean like like the objective, and then what you can do at this stage in the design process is once you've got the objective then you select those themes or ideas from your what you've done just now to support that objective, so that when you come up my objective is to convince you or my objective is to inform you then the information that you're going to give out supports that objective. So one thing that was mentioned this morning was somebody wanted to be able to be more persuasive in order to put a point of view across. If you can clearly state what your objective is what you're trying to persuade the audience to then everything you say supports that and you stand a better chance of being persuasive. Yes? It seems fairly obvious, so what do we do? Well we've got to select a number of themes to support a given objective. How many themes do we select? So what you've got there is a mass of you've got six twelve words on the first circle and then you've got twenty four words on the outer circle are you gonna dump all that information on to the audience to try and persuade them of your objective? There's only so much that anybody's brain can handle at any one time so let's just do a little experiment because there was a chap called George Miller an American psychologist who worked on this idea of what is the capacity of the brain, how many bits of information can the brain hold on to at any given time. If you turn to page eight what's that John? I'm useless at this, I know what's coming. You you know what's coming. George Miller called this the span of conception. The capacity of the brain to conceive or hold on to any information. You'll see there we've got three boxed a six number a ten number and a twelve number. What I'm gonna do is just speak out a six digit number. What I want you to do is try and hold on to it in your brain then when I've finished write it down in the appropriate box and see if you can hold on to it long enough to do that. So the first number, listen to this the first number and try and hold on to it. Three eight one five six two. Just write that down. . Okay? Let's try and ten digit number then. Listen to ten digits try to hold on to them and then write them down. Seven, four, two, nine, eight, one, three, four, seven, six. I've gone wrong Okay, try a twelve digit, just for the experiment. Try and hold on to twelve numbers, here we go. Listen to these. Nine, O, five, one, six, two, four, seven, three, eight, two, seven. . Now that's it's interesting what Joanne said that you you lost it in the middle somewhere, yeah? I mean er let's just read them just see how you got on. Three, eight, one, five, six, two. Okay, Seven, four, two, nine, eight, one, three, four, seven, six. I've got the mixed up Yeah and nine, O, five, one, six, two, four, seven, three, eight, two, seven say that one again nine, O, five,one, six, two, four, seven, three , eight, two, seven. Nearly got it . So but I mean where was it. Was it generally in the middle or at one end or The first, the first two numbers yeah okay After the first five numbers That's it because what you well you either hold on to the first five or six and then you lose the rest or sometimes you remember the beginning and the end and you lose the bit in the middle, ah. It's like that game that they used to play on Crackerjack for those of you old enough to remember Crackerjack Crackerjack Crackerjack pencils, yeah, erm that's . a cabbage. There was a game wasn't there that they played Cabbage So long as you got the question wrong you got a cabbage if you got it right you got a prize Right that's right and that's what the brain's like, you've got to try and hold on to Cabbages all these cabbages yeah. You've got to try and hold on to so much information that something eventually has to drop. Because some people do get the ten and some people can get to twelve but guess how they do it. They chunk it up into pairs or groups of three or something like that so four groups of three or two groups of six or whatever, because what Miller actually found was the span of conception was and is seven plus or minus two. People can hold on to seven plus or minus two bits of information and the plus or minus two he called the local factors which are you know whether it's warm out whether you feel warm or cold or whether or what time of day it is have you just had a heavy lunch whatever it might be. Something that effects even the time of the year all sorts of things. So the maximum is nine that people can hold on to and the thing about nine of course is it splits up into three threes and that's why I say some people will group a twelve number into four threes or something like that or three fours because they're all well within this span of conception. So as it says at the bottom of page eight there's a golden rule for presenting is use three themes. Okay? So the number of themes you use to support your objective is three and then for each of those themes you divide it into three subthemes. Remember what I did there I got three themes and for each one I got three subthemes so that what you put over to them to the audience are those three themes. They're able to hold on to that for the duration of the talk and be able to understand them as concepts and therefore it helps to put over the ideas. So we'll have a coffee break and then what I want you to do when you come back is I'll give you an objective for the talk that you're going to give based on that you've just done and then I want you to select three themes and three sub-themes that will support the objective that you'll then be able to use. Okay? Right Start again yes. the Aldershot method it goes under the nice little saying tell them what you're going to tell them then tell them and then tell them what you've told them. Now you think about News at Ten, bong, you get the headlines yeah and you get the headlines, and so it prepares you it emotionally prepares you for what's coming. Give you headlines and then they start and they go they expand on each headline, don't they? And then at the end they give you the headlines again, they summarise it. Absolutely, and it does because it a it what Dave says it's an emotional whole and you start off and you come back to where you started. It's a whole a complete, and so it it emotionally prepares with the headlines, tell them what you're gonna tell them then you tell them it and then it satisfies them by coming back to where you started. So in other words it's about an introduction an expansion and an end Now as I've said tomorrow I'll fill in a bit more detail on those so if you leave some some gaps there between those three sections. So an introduction Do you remember what I said about the the er structured thought pattern you've now got in front of you, let me go to mine which is all blank. The introduction is good afternoon ladies and gentlemen my name is I'd like to talk to you about flying and I hope to persuade you to come along on Saturday and take part in some flying. And I'm going to talk to you about three things about the safety of flying, about the cost aspects of flying and the enjoyment that you're going to get out of it when you take part. And that's my introduction, I've told you what I'm gonna tell you. And then expand on it, and so I go into each of these and I go to the and I say a few words about each of these particular themes. I won't go all through that again. And when I've expanded and I've told you then I then come back to my ending and I say, okay so what I've done I've told you about three aspects of flying, about the safety of it,ab about the costs involved in taking part in flying and about the enjoyment you're gonna get out of flying and I hope that I've persuaded you that you will come along on Saturday to take part, and that's the ending. So it's use the red obviously the title and the red's for your introduction to say what you're going to say then say it by using your greens and then say what you've said by going back to the red and coming back to your objective. Now coming back to the objective I say it leaves you on a high note then rather than the and that's all I'm gonna say tell them what you're gonna tell them then tell them then tell them what you've told them. Okay? So that in a nutshell is is what it's about. So you've all got your structured thought pattern now, yeah? yeah Right, erm three minutes again so you can spot your timing now, it's under a minute on each of those red things because you've got your introduction and your ending as well, okay? So three minutes, set the clock again as you did before and er one other thing I'd like you to do is as you come up is do something that athletes do huh and that is to er give an affirmation. Now you may see athletes you know when you see the Olympics there's the the lady with er erm javelin javelin, thank you, there's the lady with the javelin then you see or somebody you know looking at the long jump and they're muttering away to themselves. Well there're not normally saying will you get out the way before I throw this thing or I'll stab you with it. What they're actually doing is they're affirming to themselves they're verbalising the performance improvement or the performance they're going to give. Remember I asked you this morning to just just after lunch to jot down what it was that you need to improve on just as you're setting the clock just say something like by the end of this talk I'd like you to congratulate me on having moved around a bit more having not put me hands in me pockets, whatever it might be. Yeah so just an aff an affirmation of of what you intended. Okay morning everybody morning let's a what are we going to be doing today then as Dave's already observed because he's seen my notes it's going to be a very full day er so we need to crack on. What I'd like to do first of all is just to summarise wha what we did yesterday. Just very quickly summarise that and what I'd like you to do is take notes in the new form that we've got now with er a thought pattern so if you, morning okay excuse me Okay we've only barely started if you take a a fresh piece of paper then, a fresh sheet of paper and and er the orientation that you now know we need to do if we're going to do if we're going to do a thought pattern this morning Tom, we're jus just gonna summarise what we did yesterday by means of a a thought pattern. so if in the middle of the page you write day one let's just summarise er what we did yesterday. Well it was twenty three hours I was going to say twenty four hours ago, but twenty three hours. We started off with er some introductions and er the introductions, you introduced yourself and we discussed the the objectives that the company have and also the objectives that you have for the course. The objectives give us a way of er measuring at the end of the course whether the course has achieved for you what you wanted from we'll come back as I said to those this afternoon and and just review them to see that you got out of the course what you. Okay having done that we discussed what the content of the course was going to be and then I asked you to make a first presentation. Pres presentation one and it was to last three minutes and the subject was what would I do if I won two million pounds and we recorded that er on the C C T V for later playback. Having done that we then talked about the problem that we all have on these sorts of occasions which is the problem of nerves and we talked about the symptoms of dry voice and the shaking limbs the the wonky voice and the reasons why we have er these nerves and we also talked about the causes of the the primitive instinct of fight or flight er how we get get our body ready to handle this unusual situation. And we we discussed the the difference between anxiety and arousal and how we can turn our anxiety into arousal to ensure performance and I plotted a little graph if you remember. Of performance against arousal levels and we agreed that the the purpose of training like this and also putting these principles into practice is to be able to handle more and more arousal er more and more nerves and still and still be able to perform in a confident manner. We then talked about the first of those two towers of Tower Bridge if you remember which was about the skills that we need for er delivery. What are the skills that we need when we stand up in front of people to actually deliver what we have to say and there were three aspects we looked at I wonder why it was three? I wonder why it was three? Erm three aspects, first of all there was that little word I gave you er to describe pa paralinguistics Thank you the voice and and the words that we said paralinguistic is correct. The study of the voice what we say and how we say it I then introduced you to if you like advanced body language and based on the work that Marion North did and rather than take an individual movement of the body we took a cluster and how many aspects where there to cluster I wonder there were three weren't there. Hands, feet centre level. Okay so paralinguistics, the cluster and the other one was the need for audience contact. the way we get feedback from the audience the way we ensure that we involve the audience as well through the use of the eyes the names er and asking questions. And then we had the moment that a lot of you er weren't looking forward to which was playing the video back, yes. and this gave you an opportunity to see yourself to see others and to take part in some coaching something that we did again yesterday and we shall be doing again today We then talked about the the design aspect first of all we talked about er the way the brain is involved in this communication and some of the aspects of the brain. So the brain we talked about the two hemispheres the left and the right hemisphere the fact that the left is very much involved in a a linear way whereas the right is involved in spatial way, anybody remember the relative contribution of the two halves? yeah ten for the left and ninety for the right and the reason we talked about this and the way that's involved in communication is that we said well if there's a lot more power or a lot more contribution to the design of what we're doing of a spatial nature and that is how the the audience's brain work more powerfully in the spatial nature let's present what we have let's design it and then deliver it as close to a spatial nature as we can okay. That was the purpose of talking about about the brain and the two the two aspects of it. And of course the left brain is very much involved in the words the right brain with the ideas, so that's the creative side. Okay then we used this er in a way that we're using it right now to er produce our design for what we were going to say through thought patterns. Now nice abbreviation for thought patterns is thop T H O P when we talk about thought patterns or thops a method of gathering ideas a meth a method of getting things down on paper so we don't lose them but not in a linear way in a spatial way a right brain activity. And what we did we created a framework first of all with six pairs of opposites pairs of opposites and er if you remember this happened in a fairly slow and methodical way very much a left brain activity saying well okay is this a valid pair of opposites to do with that. So that was that was a very much a left brain activity. We then moved on and expanded we expanded we brought with with a minimum of two words to do with each of those twelve words that we generated and we did this in a much faster way a much more creative way a right brain activity. When I say a right brain of course it doesn't mean that the left brain's just shut down completely but it's predominantly a a right brain activity it's the the creative part. and then we use this method to then go a stage further to prepare for the second presentation. So I gave you a topic sport or a hobby or an interest that you had and you produced a thought pattern for that just as we'd done in the practice one with the subject of water, but then we moved on a stage further to get what are called a structured thought pattern. Structured thought which had as its main attributes three themes of course before you had that you had to have a clear objective which helped you to choose what those three themes were, and why why did we choose three as a based on yeah yeah, yes verbally yes if we're writing we'd actually be six but it was it was the span of conception wasn't it the capacity of the brain The span of conception says that if you deliver your presentation in groups of three in three themes and three subthemes then the audience is able to hold on to that and the way in which we set up the delivery or the way in which we delivered the structured thought pattern was through method Aldershot Aldershot method yeah which goes under the little the little rhyme words can anybody remember that's it that's it as Dave described it it's an emotional whole it's it's er satisfying er to the listener. it's complete in itself and er people by human nature like things to be complete or whole it is it is emotionally satisfying. So basically that was er an introduction an expansion and an ending. The Aldershot method. Got through quite a bit yesterday didn't we? Quite a bit there er when you lay it out like that in a pattern a thought pattern which shows just how much er we did actually get through er from where you started at ten in the morning or just after with the presentation right through to the second presentation. There were a lot a lot involved there er and some of you actually found that that there was quite a lot that you really had to almost worry about and think about and and er yesterday for the first time of doing it with this this new method it does take quite a bit of thinking about and as we agreed practice is is what's what's important.. Incidentally everything I'm I'm doing here whoops everything I'm doing here with you all the two days here is in thought patterns. So it does get used ha ha in a practical way. It would be very strange if I stood here saying don't use a linear script use thought patterns and yet I was reading everything off a linear script wouldn't it? You sort of wouldn't really believe that er I was serious about it. Okay right what I'd like you to then select red on your pen. Now in a way what you could say what we have here is a trunk of a tree and the branches and then the leaves and the fruit at different levels on this . What I'd like you to do is put put a rectangle round three words, it doesn't matter where they are on on the whole thought pattern, three words that are the highlights what were the three things that were the highlights or the most important thing for you yesterday. For instance I might go erm that one that one and er that one. Okay just a rectangle round three three er things that were the highlights for you yesterday the most important things that er came through to you yesterday. So he knows what's coming the eyes don't ya. Some a lot of you said yesterday that you don't always get in this formal situation having to stand up in front of people. But what if you have sort of meetings one to one or even even in three or fours. So you know when you get in a meeting sometimes you've got a point of view on an agenda item and you think how where am I gonna get support for for my point of view on the meeting? Or you know you're in a meeting and the chairman what's your opinion John on this where you what do you think about this? A good way of doing it is the Aldershot method, how to your put your point across very very clearly but also succinctly you know short and to the point. So if somebody said to me what what were the highlights for you yesterday, Aldershot method tell them what you tell them just list them. So what are the three important things for me yesterday were the Aldershot method the arousal curve and the need for audience contact so I told them what I'm gonna tell them. Now I tell them why if you're gonna tell somebody why why your opinion is something the word because is bound to come into the sentence soon. So I've said I've listed them well the important points for me were the Aldershot method the arousal curve and the need for audience content. The Aldershot method was particularly important for me because I realised that it's something we use every day or we see every day er and it emotionally prepares the audience the listener for what I'm going to say. Tell them what you're going to tell them before you tell them, and then summarise it at the end and tell them what you told them. It's emotionally satisfying it's a very important method to get a point across. The need for arousal thought well should I be absolutely calm when I'm giving a presentation but I never am so is it right and now understanding that you need a certain level of arousal to be able to perform at all is is satisfying for me because at least I understand the situation now and able to work with it rather than against it . And audience content when you're making a presentation I feel that's very important because you need to have feedback as to how well things are going. If you don't look people in the eye if you don't involve them then they're not with you and if the audience aren't with you then the presentation doesn't . So for me the three points were the Aldershot method er the importance of understanding arousal and the need for audience contact. Do you see the Aldershot method there you list then expand on each one saying why and then just summarise by listing again. Yep. So can we try that just to from a seated position not from from up the front. The best thing to do because having said that then I might say Mike what's your opinion what was important to you and and pass it on? So obviously if Mike's been chosen once or he's done it he doesn't want somebody asking him again. So just jot down at the side of the page the other eleven names in the room okay everybody's Tony, Mike, Jeff, Sarah, Bob, Rob, Gordon, John, Tom, Joanne, Mike Dave. Just jot the other people's names down and then obviously when they've been they've said their piece just strike their name through so you don't go and . Tony, Mike, Jeff, Sarah, Bob, Rob, Gordon, John, Tom, Joanne, Mike, Dave. You should have eleven names down there Are you alright can you see where have you got to Rob Rob yeah Gordon, Rob, Gordon John Joanne Mike and Dave okay right let's the meeting. So you've you've got your three points so remember the er the Aldershot just list what they are then expand briefly on them then list them again and then invite somebody else to to give their er their opinions. Okay? Morning everybody erm the three points that were important for me yesterday were the Aldershot method the the arousal curve and the need for audience contact. I particularly found the Aldershot method important because what it gives you is a clear structure to what you have to say when you stand up if you're going to introduce by saying what you're going to say before you expand and then at the end summarise and bring it all back to a nice conclusion. It actually gives you a framework on which to to base any any few words or any talk that you you have to give. Arousal curve well understanding the need for arousal for me helped because I now understand that having nerves while you're speaking is not unnatural it isn't something that you're able to get rid of but you need to be able to work with it and practice to improve performance. And the need for audience contact I found particularly important because if you get feedback from the audience looking them in the eye involving them then you're able to know how your talk is progressing and whether you need to modify it in any way to be able to maintain the audience's interest. So in summary the three points for me were the Aldershot method the arousal curve and the need for audience contact. Bob what did you find yesterday? The cluster I found particularly er important and so like yourself the Aldershot method and structured thought patterns er the cluster was important er because as you say when people have got nerves they need to get some basic guidelines for overcoming the problem er we all tend to put our hands in our pockets and stand rooted to the spot and all the rest of it but there are ways of overcoming it, it's just a matter of practice erm the Aldershot method is er obviously a very effective method erm if you get into the habit of doing it in threes er erm you see every day you use the news at ten news at ten analogy obviously obviously identifiable it's a very effective one and also the structured thought patterns idea er before you go into something to actually sit down and prepare something er your thoughts in a developing from there er it's a very simple thing to do but very effective. Those are the three things the Aldershot sorry the cluster the Aldershot method and structured thought patterns yesterday You were looking at me I knew you were going to say that Again the three things that came out for me yesterday were the structured thought patterns obviously the arousal and the need for audience contact. I found the erm structured thought patterns and the span of conception is very interesting in the fact that you do things in threes and obviously that gives a certain logic net to everything that you do and the way that you prepare your presentation . The arousal I've always thought that er that you shouldn't be nervous but you always are but obviously as you're nervous when you do a whole host of things and nerves as you become more skilled at it go away er and I'd assume that like most things that the nerves will totally disappear and was somewhat surprised to find out that you're always aroused that's right when when you do that, and obviously the need to gauge the erm presentation against audience contact to see that they're involved and they're obviously understanding what you're saying and pick them up and grab them. So for me the three things were the structured thought patterns plus the arousal and the need for audience contact. What did you think Sarah? I found the three most important things for me yesterday were the span of conception the clusters and the whole subject of nerves. The span of conception useful to gather that three is the best number and dividing it up into threes and threes again was simplest and effective way of setting it up. Clusters and nerves well again I always felt that nerves were supposed to go away when you got good at things, now I'm pleased to discover that isn't true. I also found that the clusters was useful for we all said guidelines what to do when you stand up there like an idiot so to sum up that the three most important things the span of conception nerves and clusters. erm from yesterday er I think meself personally I'm very methodical sort of person and I felt what was most important the revelations meself was thought patterns and the use of most structured structured in a presentation and also the importance I couldn't believe how that using them made such a difference actually to yourself when you're standing there and the audience participation erm thought patterns well I've always used that was just a revelation I mean I've never thought it could be so easy to put me thoughts on a piece of paper could help me so much I think that's what I thought patterns structured Well yesterday the three things that I felt that were most useful to me was one the delivery two the coaching and the thought patterns. Erm thought patterns being actually understanding laying it out and seeing the way it works which obviously structured thought patterns but it's the basis of and grasping erm actually delivering it your delivery erm of it using the cluster but the coaching was invaluable, it was constructive criticism we all know what was wrong and it it just helped yesterday for someone not to be coaching just to help you through it erm and I think all those three things became invaluable really mean because most of those leads on to the other ones structured erm so the sort of thought patterns the coaching and the was very good Well, things that I learnt yesterday was erm Aldershot method the structured thought patterns and the coaching erm the Aldershot method is tremendous I liked that a lot for expansion editing summarising and first class and I will use it from now on. Erm the Aldershot method works or appears to work very well with structured thoughts the two merge together very well and erm again that's the putting down on paper I didn't believe that had actually talk at all and yet it works and as you read it things come into the brain and when you combined all that with the coaching and you can see what you're doing wrong the rest of it. Again that's excellent but it's also also to see yourself video erm and realise that no you don't sound quite as bad as you think you might. So the three things that really got me yesterday was the Aldershot method the structured thoughts and the coaching they all went together very well and Rob let's see what he thinks Well the three things that er were most significant for me yesterday were the cluster the thought patterns and the Aldershot method. Erm the cluster makes you realise how you presented things to people what you can improve them having things in your hand that it it just makes you erm more nervous because you're fumbling about what makes me more nervous you're fumbling about with something trying to to do something that you don't really need to do. Erm moving around er feet movement I didn't quite master that yesterday but it it's something that er I know that will come with time and er it'll it'll all come together. The thought patterns like Joanne and others the the concept of putting a little circle down and one word in it and expanding that out and being able to stand around and talk erm for three minutes or ten minutes or whatever for a significant amount of time erm that that was also a revelation to me. And along along with that erm the Aldershot method erm an introduction and expansion and an ending all on the same subject erm makes it a nice concise er little parcel erm for you to talk through. So the end the three things for me yesterday cluster, thought patterns and the Aldershot method Thank you very much Well for me exactly the same as Bob sorry Robert, the Aldershot method plus er the thought processes. The Aldershot method because er it it sort of explained to me the most effect way of getting across whatever you want to say so that made me a feel a bit happier about that. It also made me think that perhaps I had more control over the whole presentation generally which is my biggest concern so get up there and just do some and therefore it's going to go on to the confidence side of it. The cluster erm I was always very aware of this bit so it made me you know aware that there are things you can do and watching everybody just seemed just the answer inside you. It didn't look er odd it looked okay so that would make me a bit more confident I think a bit less self conscious. But the most important thing I thought was the thought process I mean just just saying this while you were just going on I just jotted down in the same way you could come off with three ideas that around and I felt that was that was ideal. It keeps the your your presentation and it stops those pregnant er pauses you know suddenly you realise Christ I've forgotten lost the thing. So for me Aldershot method, cluster but most important was the thought patterns. Gordon Er yes there the three things I got out of erm yesterday's course was the thought patterns the Aldershot method and the delivery. The thought patterns allow me to erm put down what I wanted to talk about, expand on it and at the same time break it down into areas and on the other and spend some time on each area. The Aldershot method erm because it showing you how you broke that subject down allows you to erm introduce it expand on it and summarise at the end. Er the delivery part it was more the cluster but the overall delivery allowed me to prepare how I was going to be standing er how to get the audience in contact with me the eye the eye contact and also the way I spoke. So to summarise the thought patterns the Aldershot method Jeff The three things that came out of yesterday for meself were the the Aldershot method the delivery . The Aldershot principally because it gave a structure to what I had to say at least went up there fairly confident of what I had . The delivery because it gave me what I had to think about when I was up there language body language and then the playbacks I could look at the two things that Mike just highlighted as one and two. The Aldershot method the structure of what I said and the way the delivery had come across. The feedback gave me a review of those questions. So out of yesterday it was how to put the structure together as the delivery of how it came across and what the audience's reaction was to it. Morning ladies and gentlemen carry on Mike and then to John good morning ladies and gentlemen the three main items I got out of yesterday was the er structured thought patterns the cluster and the playback the structured thought patterns I found that the most important because when I was up at the table on the second presentation I was able to have my thoughts relating to the layout already and with in fact just the single element of the subject shown on my paper I could immediately focus on that and in fact give the details of that right the way through. On the cluster erm not having in fact had any erm work on this type of thing before I didn't realise that holding a paper could close you down and in fact without moving my feet I wasn't getting movement I was just static and with no use of the hands you were to express yourself sufficiently. With the playback that in fact erm as has said it showed me what in fact I was doing right and wrong, erm I've been on television before once when I was running the London marathon but this time it was actually me and me alone in a work element and I could in fact see what I was doing and why I was doing it and understand in fact the corrections from the morning to in fact the afternoon presentation when I came back for the second one. So the main elements for me were the thought process the cluster and the playback. Now let's John John Erm the three things I I er got most out of yesterday were the structured thought patterns, playback and the audience contact. The structured the structured thought patterns gave me an actual er organisation to my talk be it only just a few words on a piece of paper it was simple yet er gave the organisation to the actual talk while you stood up in front of an audience. er the audience contact when you were actually stood up in the front and you're there on your own just getting a little bit of feedback from the audience itself er does help and then the playback which erm I think it helped a lot to see how you faired particularly on that fir first attempt what areas you had to concentrate on to rectify your problems. So in summary the three main things I got out of yesterday were the structured thought patterns the playback and the audience contact. Great thank you all very much indeed. So I hope you see, that this Aldershot method which several people have mentioned is is a very effective way of structuring what you do here it can also be used very simply in in a meeting just to be able to put your point across simply but effectively. So that's another situation and as we'll talk about and I hinted at yesterday er the dreaded vote of thanks situation and the the er giving of the gold watch and er and the being a best man at a wedding or even a bride or groom at a wedding er again is a is a way of helping this Aldershot method is a way of helping you to to get your thoughts together and put them across effectively. So what else are we going to do today then. Two things I want to just touch on er fairly briefly er because of the time factor but I do want to touch on before you get into continuing with your er development for your third presentation. Er the questions of how to handle questions and also the use of visual aids. Let's do them the other way round let's talk first of all about the visual aids. Why do we why do we use visual aids like the overhead projector and the flip chart why do we use the things at all? About ninety per cent It is it is in a way isn't it well very much so not just in a way it's very much because we have what's that saying we say a picture is paints a thousand words yeah? If we can put something pictorially it saves probably half an hour's explanation doesn't it if you don't have that so very much er the use of the right brain getting the point across visually er gets it across er much more quickly. So that's one one benefit of using a visual aid is to is to put a point over er much more quickly. What others? going back to the same point again You could indeed, you could indeed it it reinforces a point doesn't it, so I mean I so went back a few times with the flipchart yesterday with things that we need to re reinforce yes? Jeff you've a lot of experience of doing lecturing what what does it do for you as a presenter? I've used it to erm to develop the lecture. I let the audience draw their own thought patterns yep That produces something that then moves on to discussions right I call it no notes at all right and they write the lecture for me they write yeah they write the lecture as it takes place yeah yes good preparation Well no there's actually there's a lot of preparation in that isn't there Well what I do it on is planning Oh yes and er control of sub contractors then you get a mixed group from Tarmac er different companies and their conception of what planning is and conception of what controlling sub contractor is yeah is totally different so I did the first lecture with what my idea of to find myself talking to a a contract housing guy whose biggest order was two thousand pounds right so I've have them produce the lecture and then we've gone on from like doing yep exactly the thing right pick out three things and we'll talk about them Mm, mm and that's how I use visual aids so it can actually be a stimulus can't it? so I then find myself doing nothing else but walking around so I go and ask right So it forces me yes out into the audience Well that's what you hinted at yesterday as well didn't it? I mean if if you're here even now you've got your notes down rather than in your hand and and you stand and read but you don't use that or you don't use that then there is that tendency isn't there to? So the focus of attention switches from people looking at me yeah, to the visual aid yes to this to actually looking at what they're producing right, yes, and that's an important factor that that if you feel everybody's looking at you it is important attention it does it moves attention away just takes takes the little bit of the tension off you so you can do that as well. So it's it appeals to the right brain that visual aspect it can take attention it can actually make the presenter move around when it switches attention what does that do for the audience then? wakes them up er absolutely, yeah it keeps the interest going doesn't it? So it's it's an interest thing as well it keeps the interest it changes the emphasis switches the attention makes a break doesn't it it just changes er er a natural break that happens and it changes attention. So there's there's lots of reasons to illustrate the point then and another thing of course it does is if it's one you use on here it helps you remember you don't have to have that written down because it's there already produced if it's a pre-prepared acetate as we call as we call it. So and it can break up a long session it can it can maintain interest. So two two methods I'm going to talk about really is is the overhead and the flipchart. You may have caught me doing this some of you may have have noticed that I try to force meself not to and it's something to remember. If I'm writing something up here and I talk to you while I'm writing up here then what does it do? It loses impact It loses impact doesn't it because a the power of the voice is hit against there, b it's very rude to talk while I've got me back to you as well so people yes lose interest. So while you're writing on the board have one of those pauses. Now again it's oh there's silence in the room but while you're writing what what are the audience doing if you're not speaking? Watching Absolutely they're reading it with you so they're with you so you're you're holding their interest even though you're not actually saying anything, yeah, and again you may you may have noticed well another thing is once you've once you're written put the pen down and the easiest thing in the world to have a but if you want to make a point and you probably noticed once I once I put the red lines around the red boxes round there and I gave you the first demonstration of the Aldershot method I stood here okay. Now if I want to write something I can just turn like that and I'm not turning me back away. Okay if you're left handed then then I guess you're probably gonna feel more comfortable that way round erm but while you're using this and while you're making a point about what you've written just just stand to the side of it I usually put me hand up have done there just make the points to be made, yes. So that's that's the way to use that is not to talk to it but to have a silence while you're writing er and then to stand at the side while you making the points that are that are associated with what you've written up. I would recommend for any talk that you give that you don't use more than two types of visual aid. I know we used the video but that was for a very specific reason but if you know have you ever been to one of those lectures where there's there's overheads going on here and then they go and they write on there and they you have some slides and then you have a video and then you know it's like being at Wimbledon. er if you stick to just just two as a maximum er ah an overhead and a flipchart or maybe a video and an overhead then it actually doesn't it really helps not to confuse the audience. That's actually all I want to say about the flipchart unless anybody's any other comments I mean Jeff's you've obviously got a lot of experience in a do you feel there's any anything further than that I know I've covered it very briefly. Well the only one that comes back to me is you've got the ability to review that's right, that's right you can you can yep, good it has that creative element about it doesn't it because as you say if you get them to produce it get the audience to help produce it then again it's involvement and the whole thing is is erm more spontaneous than than pre-prepared. I mean if if I'd done that this morning and I'd written it all up before you came in and then said well what we've done is this and then we did that and then we did that but as as it was generated as we discussed then then you were with me I hope at the way it went It's quite important though to do it fairly neatly Oh indeed indeed and I'm not the neatest writer in the world I will say and erm I wasn't No I know you weren't getting at me I know I That's right the first time I get up well you see I cheat I have it lightly pencilled in Well that's You can do that that's because that's you want to start suddenly you find yourself either I have I tell you I've done that before now and then that one ends up right down in the bottom corner and it's it's It just it just takes the edge off it so it is a good tip actually it's just if you've time beforehand is just even as you were saying producing a thought pattern like this even just doing the first level just in pencil. I've actually seen erm er been in a workshop as a participant where a chap who was excellent at this had what he did was while while the participants were doing some sort of an exercise he was actually making these tiny notes up in the top corner for himself so that when he when he came to the next sort of section that he wanted he'd he'd got he'd got the odd notes just up there in the corner. So again that's something you can do but yes good tips thank you Jeff just doing it in pencil lightly in pencil beforehand Rolf Harris does that Yeah he does doesn't he yeah that's right I don't do it on that, I do it on a big blackboard that's right, that's right yeah there is that but well the way I do it is I I try and avoid the lecture lecturer yes, because I assume the audience knows as much about control and sub contractors as I do right but the idea is to to get their ideas so that you can tell somebody else how you do it on your side then you can tell somebody else yeah the need, I need to change information yeah it brings out some interesting ideas I bet it does and I the flipchart yeah and that's that's the only way it's amazing we ever get any sort of right let me just then talk very briefly about this fella. Now we're fortunate with with this that if I turn it on it's very quiet but if any of you had and I'm sure Jeff you've probably seen it where you get some older machines and the fan in there rattles like mad and there's nothing worse than having that thing rattling all all the day. So the first point is if you're going to show something show it, let everybody deal with it let everybody look at it then when you've finished with that turn it off because you want the centre of attention to come back to you, presumably. Even if you've got a series of slides I recommend that you turn it off between each one so that you know the audience don't see the things being put into position or moved about because that can be a bit distracting so er it does mean that you'd obviously need to know where the on off switch is and and this is a nice one because it's it's right there. Now, this this material that we use technically called acetate and the nice thing about is that you can write on with if you get acetate pens so you can freehand to produce sketches, diagrams etcetera. Obviously you can have photocopies or laser prints copied on to this material, but I have here some pens and a box of blank acetates which you will have the opportunity later to use if you so wish. Now we've got a variety of colours there. We've got two four six eight colour, okay. If you want to make a point if something's you want to make more emphasis than others then there is a hierarchy to these colours on this transmitted light. Okay this is light being transmitted through these colours and up on to the screen. So I have a list here now it isn't in the notes so you might just want to make a note of this. The hierarchy of colours What's the theory behind that? It's it's the brain right brain response to colour and it's the response through the eye to the colour. Some things have more they have more emphasis and they appear more important than others. You'll be interested in some of these colours I I find the order of these quite interesting. So the hierarchy of colour, I'm going to just kneel down there I hope you can all see. Right at the top of the colours I have here are is purple, I often wonder whether that is the reason why royalty is asso or purple is associated with the royalty, purple robes etcetera. I don't know interesting. Interesting question. But of the colours we've got here in this list purple is the one that has the most impact, followed by blue Erm, a number of issues will come through in a moment or two, but first of all can we start this morning's business by calling on the Chair of the Standing Orders Committee John , to give report number three. John. Thank you. Standing Orders Committee report number three. Settle down colleagues please. President, congress. I wish to move a short report on behalf of Standing Orders Committee. London Region have withdrawn motion fifty two, due for debate on Wednesday afternoon. Northern Region have withdrawn motion eighty two, due for debate on Wednesday morning. The Committee has accepted an emergency motion Proposed Redundancies at A B B Transport Limited to be moved by Midlands and East Coast Region as emergency motion number three. We would ask national officers to respect a time limit allowed for their reports. President, congress, I move this report. Thanks very much indeed John. Conference accept S O C report number three? Agreed, thanks very much. Colleagues I'd just like to put one of er John's themes and that is that for the next couple of days we've got a hell of a lot of business to get through and er we've done quite well so far but er I would certainly be looking where possible colleagues for formally seconding er, as often as possible, if not all the time and I really appreciate your er your assistance in that regard because we have a great deal of business to get through in the next two days. We can do it, you can do it, I know that and er so if we all act with a bit of restraint, we'll get through. The other point is I gave you an undertaking yesterday to come back to you on the reschedule of the programme in respect of items that have fell of the agenda during the course of the week. Now what I'm proposing to do is to issue a revised programme in respect of the afternoon session this afternoon, which will take in some of the business that er has has already fell off which would be at the end of the private session this afternoon so we'll try and get in er rule twenty Regions in their Manage and their Management which will take in three motions, thirty six, thirty seven and forty and then we'll turn, hopefully, to the Social Security Payments Resolutions, you'll remember that they fell off, composite two eight three, motions three seven nine, three eight five and three eight six. Er, equally colleagues, I intend to try and take er key national officers' report during the course of this morning. You'll recall that the key fell off the agenda as well, earlier or should I say, wasn't very painful. Should I say the report fell off the agenda. So that's what, that's the way I'm hoping that we can proceed, as I say, yes with your assistance and then if we can get through that business, then equally tomorrow morning, we'll be doing a similar thing,we we'll issue another revised programme which will er take in some of the outstanding stuff that's fell off. Yes. President, congress, Denise , South Western Region. As important as those motions are, we have also missed some very important ones which I think should take priority. On page six of our agenda there are congress organization motions which clearly need to be discussed some time during this congress because they concern rule amendments, and if they do fall off the agenda because debate is long on the other things, I really do believe they should take priority because we won't be raising them for another three years. There's also on page ten the motions regarding timing of congress which clearly concerns next year and I do believe that these should have priority. Right I think you have missed the point or may not have understood how we deal with the business of this congress. Nothing at this congress falls off the agenda, nothing. Unlike some union conferences, some business is not taken, but this conference all business is taken. All business is taken, so that particular, those particular items that you've referred to I am already seeking to schedule that business for tomorrow, but I don't want to preempt the situation and chance my arm any further than what it is, because I could end up falling on my face and I want to try and avoid that. But I could assure you colleagues that business will be taken, okay? Right thanks very much indeed for that colleagues. Now, it's now my pleasure to welcome on your behalf Chris the Secretary of Portsmouth Trades Council. Chris has been Secretary for Trades Council for ten years, he's a W E A tutor, that's his er profession, he's an organizer, and he organizes courses throughout Hampshire and the Isle of Wight. More recently I understand that Chris has had er had a very interesting, made a very interesting study of the French trade union movement, that must have been fascinating. Erm, difficult job, difficult part of the world for the trade union movement. For his sins he's a Member of E M E S A, but we won't hold that against him! Just a very warm welcome on behalf of the G M B please address our conference. Thank you Dick. Actually the last time I was stood up on a platform and did this was in front of erm a S G T congress in Dieppe and I tell you I had to do it in French, and it was much more difficult so I'm hoping this one will go smoothly, but I, what I'd really like to do is begin with is offer you erm delegates and platform both, a very very warm welcome from the trade union movement in Portsmouth. We're absolutely delighted that you're here in Portsmouth for your congress and it's very very important to us and I think perhaps I'd take a little bit of time to explain why it's important. The first thing is erm those of you that know this area will know that it's er not like the rest of Hampshire er leaving aside Southampton. It's an industrial city, it's a working class city, it's a city that has been very very hard hit by recession. The unemployment level is twelve percent and rising. More worryingly, thirty percent of the jobs in this city are linked to the defence industry and we all know, and I don't need to remind you what's happening to the defence industry, here it's going down very very fast, we are losing jobs out the dockyard, but we're also losing the jobs that are associated with the M O D with the Royal Navy er and it's extremely worrying for the trade union movement in the city. It's also a very very poor city in the sense that wages are low. The history of this is that for many years M O D were unhappy about expansion of the, of the port er, for commercial use and the reason they were unhappy of course was that erm commercial use was competition that they felt would be likely to drive up wages. At the time, people felt they had secure jobs er in the M O D and the dockyard and so people accepted that with pensions and everything that goes with that sort of secure job, now of course the whole situation is enormously diff different and I was saying to, I have some French people staying with me this morning and I was, they were asking me about wages and I was saying to my daughter who works er on a Thursday evening in the local Sainsburys, earns more per hour than a friend of mine, well two friends of mine, one of whom is a carpenter, a fully qualified carpenter and the other is a motor mechanic, and that's an indication of the sort of level of wages that people are paid in this area. So we're, we're particularly pleased that you're here for a slightly mercenary reason actually, because with a thousand delegates coming into the city, it really does boost, even for a week, boosts the local economy and that's very pleasing. The second reason that, that we're delighted to see you is that as a Trades Council we have been trying very hard over the last six or seven years to raise the profile of the trade union movement and this has been quite difficult in in during the Thatcher years, during the anti-trade union legislation, the onslaught by the media, trade unions er, the profile of trade unions has not been easy to raise. However we're beginning to make some progress and we're making some progress for a number of reasons. First of all I think we have worked out the importance of establishing a very good relationship with the media and that's developing and that means that, that the views of the trade union movement are beginning to be heard, er, when we, when we spoke to the editor of the local paper for example, we pointed out that on the business page there's nothing about trade unions and did he think that business er existed without er on, just on one side. Didn't he recognize that trade, the trade union movement had a role to play er in that, in, on that page and to the, to the credit of, of the local press, they had responded and so we are now asked to put forward the views of the trade union movement, something I think which local trades councils should be doing, should be the role of local trades councils to do that effectively. We've also looked at the needs of our local community, our local trade union movement and one of the things that we're extremely concerned about is health and safety. Er, I mean that's, that's not just here it's everywhere, but one of the things that is very clear is that people often do not have access to the sort of information that they need about hazards. And so we, we are in the process of setting up an online database computerized which would be accessible by not just branches, but individual erm health and safety reps for a fairly minimal affiliation which will tap into the latest information which will be updated er every three months and we feel that again that's something in conjunction with, clearly with the unions in the city something that a trades council should be doing, something that raises our profile, explains to people what trade councils, what the trade union movement is all about and does it effectively using modern techniques and modern methods. We're also, now that we have er erm the, the council's actually hung, but now we have the, the Labour Group largely in control of the direction of what's happening in the city er we've been able to raise some issues that were extremely difficult to raise under the previous Tory administration. One of the things that concerns us is provision for people who are unemployed and we are we are speaking and working, speaking to and working with the Labour Group and the Labour Party on establishing a centre for people who are unemployed. Particularly I think to the, to, to, not to provide something that they encounter elsewhere, the hoops they have to go through in order to get benefit, the restart programme, we're not interested in that we're interested in solidarity support, rebuilding confidence,keep keeping unemployed people in contract with the local trade union movement, and that that's something that I personally regard as extremely important and something that, that erm with this partnership of the Labour Party, the Labour Group and the Trades Council and the trade unions in the area, I think we do very effectively. So we believe that unions should be effective, should be active trades councils should be effective, should be active, should be using modern methods, but without, and I stress this, without losing sight of our traditional concerns and values. Now we're delighted to see you here because we know that the, the G M B shares this view and we know that you've also been in the forefront of introducing technology, er and we know also that having you here er, having your conference here, helps us enormously to continue this process of raising the profile of the trades unions, the trades council, the labour movement in the city. The amount of press coverage that's been generated this week by your conference has been enormously important to the local trade unions, it's something that we can build on, it's something that says to the local press to the local media trade unions have got something to say trade unions have got something to put forward and it's that's something that we will come back to erm afterwards, after you've gone, we can use that, we can build on it. The third reason why we're, we're pleased to see you here is that erm as a trades council, we've and this er and Dick mentioned this in his introduction, we've initiated a major international programme, major in terms of our size obviously as er as a local body, involving links between union activists here primarily in France er, in northern France, but also links now developing in Spain with the new ferry going between Portsmouth and Bilbao, we're starting to meet with the unions in Spain who are interested in speaking about the, the, the differences in wages in terms and conditions working for the same ferry company, doing the same jobs in the port, a comparative look at how the, the wages terms and conditions differ and we want to, we want to go and visit them in the autumn and, and work out, and work on more links on a sector basis, so that our colleagues down in Bilbao in northern Spain can link up with people in the, in the, in similar sectors here and we've done this over the last three and a half years with the unions in France, we've had exchanges of all sectors, the public sectors, transport, erm, health, social services, shop workers. It's been enormously successful because we've done it on an activist basis so that activists have met one another, all those prejudices and all those stereotypes have immediately vanished as soon as people have stayed in one another 's homes and realized that people have the same problems, they have the same, they have the same problems and the same difficulty er as difficulties as we do. Maybe their system's organized differently, but fundamentally the problems are the same and that's given our people the confidence that they needed because they've been able to see that people everywhere, it's not just them isolated in, in, you know, Tory Britain, who are facing these particular difficulties, but issues of privatization for example as the same in France and actually about to get much worse, er but, and, and I think that helped erm our colleagues from France who've also got a perspective on their struggles and their battles we've been able to support one another with information about companies working, multi-national companies working on both sides of the Channel. One example er, a couple of examples erm, we've worked together with the unions in Moulinex in northern France who bought Swan Kettles er which is where the G M B is erm is highly organized and er in those er meetings between the unions in, in Moulinex and Swan we've been able to see the disparity between the conditions and the wages and be able to speak about ways in which people can go back to their, to their er workplace and work on that with that knowledge. Er we've done the same for Renault Trucks in northern France and in Dunstable, brought, brought the unions together simply through the contacts that we've made here in Portsmouth. Erm, so we are particularly pleased to have you here because we know as well that the G M B is in the forefront of erm establishing activity within Europe, one of, one of the few unions I think is that the only unions will have an office open in Brussels. Er something that is, is inconceivable to me that the, the other unions don't do it because I, I believe it's gonna be enormously important to our trade union movement. So our, our international work has er been important to us and we are pleased to s to see you here to raise that profile as well. Erm, so finally I should say that above all we are very pleased to see you, we're delighted to have you here. Erm, we hope that you will come back soon, because for all the reasons I've outlined it's tremendously important to us and it's nice to have a body of, a big large body of trade unions in the city in terms of our feelings as, as local trade unions as well. Erm, I the light's, the light's flashing erm I thought for one hopeful minute you were gonna wind up then. I am gonna wind up I'm just gonna say if anybody wants some information about our database which is open to anybody in the country, I've left some leaflets there erm, I've been asked to plug Trade Union News which has been important to us too so I have erm and I finally I'd say thank you very much for inviting me to come and speak to you. Chris thanks very much indeed for that very thoughtful and welcoming address. I'd like to present on behalf of congress to you a banner bright by John and also a tankard suitably inscribed. Colleagues er back to the agenda, national officers report Duncan . President, congress, Duncan National Office. At last year's congress, I outlined the devastating effect that the recession was having on the engineering, shipbuilding and aerospace industries. I recall the catalogue of redundancies that have been declared in nineteen ninety one nineteen ninety two. Unfortunately that story continues and ninety two ninety three is seeing even more of our colleagues made redundant, not in hundreds but in thousands. Engineering employment in the first half of nineteen ninety three is estimated to be a hundred and twenty thousand fewer than twelve months earlier and it is forecast to fall another forty five thousand in the next twelve months. Two years ago, Norman Lamont gave the uncaring Conservative view on unemployment. He told MPs rising unemployment of the recession have been the price we have had to pay to get inflation down. That price is well worth paying. Figures alone colleagues cannot show the misery of redundancy and unemployment, people who have been made redundant are thirty times to, more likely to commit suicide than those in work and time ten times more likely to be seriously ill. Mounting debt problems and the possibility of losing their homes, all that's stress to the redundant workers. Is that the price worth paying? A long-term coherent policy for industry is needed. What agreed by government, management and trade unions a policy which assists industry not leaves it to the market forces. The collapse of the Dutch parent company of Leyland Daf left thousands of jobs in jeopardy whilst the Belgian Dutch governments took immediate action to try to ensure the survival of plants in their countries, our government sat back and waited to see if another chunk of British manufacturing would disappear. The G M B and Apex Partnership shop stew stewards and representatives of Leyland Daf played a magnificent part, maximizing jobs whilst at the same time looking after the needs of those thrown on the scrap heap through no fault of their own. I now turn to the most vindictive act of the government in nineteen ninety two. In order to achieve its dogma of privatizing the coal industry, it colluded with British Coal to close thirty one pits. No consideration was given to what would happen to those working in the industry, their families or communities. What the government did not bargain for was the public outrage and the massive support given to the demonstrations. The High Court ruled the closure plan unlawful and irrational and the Employment Select Committee slammed the government's actions unacceptable. Heseltine promised to, to call review which was delayed until it could persuade sufficient Tory members to vote for it. Under the review, twelve of the thirty one pits are to remain in production, but for how long without a market for coal being expanded? To pay for the pits the government told British Coal not to pay four hundred and eighty one million that it owed to the staff's superannuation fund. Not only has this government got no policies for industries, it has no morals either. Equally, the management of British Coal once again have not honoured their undertakings, they promised me that once they had considered the Consultants' Report into the reorganization, they would consult with us. I learned of their decision colleagues last night on television when the Chairman announced at the U D M Conference, who are not involved in this issue at all, that three thousand redundancies of management and clerical staff were going to be made. When will the government and British Coal learn the basic principles of industrial relations and understand they are dealing with people not machinery? The next three months will be crucial within the industry. There will be the closures and mothballing of pits, there will be a reduction of Apex jobs under the reorganization now taking place and steps towards privatization will begin. Colleagues, the government's inertia in tackling the crisis in industry stems from the fact that it has convinced itself, if not the general public, that there is no problem. This must be remedied. I commend my report. Thank you very much Duncan. Page forty, forty one, forty two, forty three, forty four, forty five, yes. President, congress. Mike , Midlands and East Coast Region. Duncan, two things. First a note of caution on your report on Aerospace. You mentioned the Saudi deal has been announced, but so far it's only for the Tornado and not the full go ahead to . Excuse me. Also there's been no announcement so far on the Hawk Trainer which involves most of the four and a half thousand at as many more in British Aerospace and other companies. Secondly for your efforts in putting for the recent joint Delegates Conference on the out-sourcing and that's a company's way and not mine. Of the Information and Technology Department by British Aerospace,and that thanks is not used from Apex, it's also from M S S at or acknowledged it was your efforts and not their that brought that conference about. This out-sourcing could put the software technology for the defence of the country into the hands of a foreign-controlled company and it could cost another two thousand British Aerospace jobs. Thank you Duncan. Forty six, forty seven, yes. President, congress, Ron , Yorkshire and North Derbyshire, at the moment, as far as I'm aware still employed by British Coal. Duncan, Salary and Conditions claim I quote due to the turmoil within the industry at the time of compiling this report, we have not as yet presented a claim . Duncan, we have now gone seven months without presenting a claim, during which time our members have continued to work hard for the Corporation. We are doing our jobs, it is not our fault that the Board Members and the government cannot do theirs, but as usual it is always the workforce who are suffering. Don't let us lost a year, if we let them use turmoil in the industry as an excuse for not meeting us, we will never sit round a table with them again. We are going to be asking our members to pay a further ten pence a week to maintain front-line services, but they feel they are not getting any. Simply Duncan, when are we going to get in there and negotiate before we start losing membership for reasons other than redundancy? Thank you. And forty eight. Yes. President, congress, Ed , Westminster trade union and Political Staffs Branch for the London Region. Congress, I think it's only right to draw to your attention that in item five B USDAW that at the last USDAW Conference there was a motion passed saying that there should be recognition for the independent trade union within USDAW which is ourselves, G M B Apex. However since that time, there has been no recognition granted by USDAW, the main reason for which is the General Secretary, who allegedly had said that because his organization is not a profit making organization, there is no reason to have a trade union there. Now these are the kind of people we have to deal with and I know Duncan has a problem in USDAW there's Gerry the negotiator for the London Region. I think that conference should know this is the kind of employer that even the trade union Political Staffs have to deal with. President, as far as Mick's concerned, yes you're quite right Mick, my report says about the Saudi deal. Some of that deal has been produced as far as the Tornado's concerned, but again you're quite right we're waiting for the announcement of the er orders for the trains. Er as far as out-sourcing is concerned, when we learned that there could be two thousand jobs lost or out-sourced from British Aerospace, it was my opinion in line with those of our representatives that we ought to convene a meeting immediately of all shop stewards and representatives who would be covered er through those discussions and arrange and organize a strategy to oppose it. This I'm pleased to say is being done, a meeting has been arranged with British Aerospace, it should have taken place on Monday er Mike was deputizing me at that meeting and I'm waiting to see what the outcome of that meeting is. Ron as far as the Saudi claim is concerned you will be aware that I have written to all regions explaining the reason why we have not presented a claim, no other union has presented a claim in British Coal and if we do present a claim at this point in time, I'll tell you what the answer will be. That answer will be that we, they,th British Coal will not give an increase this year. I have said consistently we don't want to be the first in the industry, I would rather await either N A C O T, N A C O M or the U D M seeing what they, the outcome is there as we have traditionally done and then take it from there where you must agree that we have usually improved on their offer when it's been made. As far as Ed's concerned, yes we've still got the problem with USDAW Ed, Gerry has worked unceasingly on that probable er problem er, to try to get recognition for our members. I am aware he has met on a number of occasions with our members, and he was instrumental in selecting a team, which met with the General Secretary of USDAW who said that they had had a er a er reasonable meeting with him. We're now hoping to get a resolution to that problem. We need to recruit more members within USDAW, but I'll give you one guarantee, it's one battle within the trade union movement that we must win. Thank you. Thanks very much indeed Duncan. Colleagues, we now move into the jobs and recovery debates, in which we'll be taking composite eight, motion two seven eight, motion two seven nine, composite ten, motion two eight three and the emergency motion number two Pit Review and Closures to move by the Midland and East Coast Region. So if the mover of composite eight would come down and standing in the of the Northern Region, to be seconded by Lancashire, but as we're now formally seconding the er the, the formally seconders will not be required to come down to the front, but the movers will. Mr President, congress, John , Northern Region seconding composite eight. Despite the promises of Tory Ministers during the nineteen ninety two election campaign, the past twelve months witnessed even further decline in our manufacturing industry. As Britain falls into its deepest recession over fifty years the, since the recession began in nineteen ninety, the number of employees in industry has fallen by one million five hundred and fifty one thousand with a further three hundred and sixty two thousand self-employed forced into bankruptcy. Sixty five thousand training jobs cut, making a grand total one million nine hundred and seventy eight thousand jobs lost. Most shocking of all colleagues, over eight hundred and fifty thousand of those job losses have come from our already shattered manufacturing base. Today in Britain manufacturing, the well created section of our economy, accounts for just over four million employees from a U K total of twenty five million. Against such a background Mr President, is it any wonder that our nation faces enormous social problems? Is it any wonder that crime, homelessness and deprivation rises, or that health and education standards fall? Colleagues, the greatest single challenge that conference is a task of rebuilding our once proud manufacturing industry. We need to direct and target investment into training, into research and development and into our regions. We need to challenge the ideology which claims the market knows best, despite claims that we are coming out of recession, we are still losing thousands of jobs because, as we know all too well, the market will always neglect our nation's long-term interest for the short-term profits of speculators and asset strippers. Congress, the G M B as a union founded and built around working people as a duty, an obligation to accept that challenge and to lead that campaign. I urge you to support this motion and to put the great back into Britain. Thank you. Formally seconded? Thanks very much indeed. Motion two seven eight Social Injustices London Region to move. President, congress and all the teams at this congress. Michael , London Region moving resolution two seven eight, Social Injustices. Colleagues, as the resolution says and as we all know, we've all experienced it, the last fourteen years have been a catalogue of disaster after disaster for all sections of the society, and especially the disadvantaged, those the young, the elderly, the disabled and the unemployed, all been attacked. There has been no area, there's been no need or entitlement that has escaped the Thatcher and the Majorite acts. One of the difficulties that results from these cuts and that tax has been that there had been so numerous that it can't keep count of how many times they'd changed the goal posts, how many times they imposed cuts, but you know a lot of the government's ideas are that it's money, money, money, but it's not all financial, it's been physical and mental. Remember the cuts in the people's rights at industrial tribunals that have had a profound effect on employment rights, the attack on local democracy, rate capping, the cuts of tax on local government have had a devastating effect on housing and the social fabric of local community. What's the new thing that the government's brought out, care in the community, what's it supposed to be?freedom to do what you want, and what's happened? My own experience, my own area, we have Harry, he had cancer hospital no family, he had a home carer for two hours a day, he lasted two days and died. Nay and I call that an injustice. You get Ann, senile dementia, they had to get the taps off the gas fire because she kept turning it on and off without it being lit again, found wandering in her nightclothes, injustice, and then we found Eileen, who was in an upstairs room, yes she enjoyed that life for about five years, great council house then she had an accident and then because she couldn't re-house her, she was a virtual prisoner inside her own home that she'd made up. Is that a social justice? It's a social injustice. Colleagues, as I've already said the list is endless er but we would like to draw up and prefer in conjunction with the T U C and the Labour Party at least of these major cuts and their effects, restrictions in the tax introduced by this Tory government, including benefit cuts, cuts in pensions, housing, legal and employment rights which should be published, so these might rectify. President, I move two seven eight. Formally seconded? Formally seconded? You have, have formally seconded it over there. I thought I'd come and see you President, congress Keith , London Region, seconding motion two seven eight. Social injustice is brought on by an economic policy perpetuated by the Tories and their . It is our duty the G M B to stop the decline in social injustice and its damage to the U K. There have been many attacks on our society the trade used by taking our finances and yet, by their economic mistakes and profitization , we, the ordinary working people, pick up the bill. They may have sacked the Chancellor but they're still committed to capitalism and economic policy which is diametrically opposed to any form of such a justice. So as hey, the need for our welfare state, good health service, education, social housing and all the rest. The labour trade union movement to meet the needs and that's of our people. Congress, pick up your rulebooks and look at page seven,Clause nine Rule two. It's all there to promote or support legislation especially in connection with the legal rights of trade unions, industrial, health, safety and welfare and social economic and social welfare. Congress,need for this motion. This is already happening. it's for our people. I second. Motion two seven nine London Region to move. Mr President. Brian, before you start, no laughing this time, I couldn't stand it again. Honestly. I've been on tablets all night. Alright, alright. Brian , London Region moving motion two seven nine. Mr President, other honoured guests. This motion condemns rise in unemployment caused by the incompetent handling of the Tory government's economic policies and I ask for support of the T U C campaigns for the unemployed, but I would beg really that when we do campaign, the T U C gives us more than two days to notify us of rallies and meetings. Like other unions we suffer from the severe loss of members due to unemployment and we are appalled at the devastation of family life when the breadwinner's been sha cast on the scrap heap and the behaviour of the government it throws whole communities into depravity without a chance of any hope for the future and their children. Mining communities, the dock areas, Liverpool, all these people the only crime, the only crime they've ever committed is to stand up for their rights. The unemployed are having their links with hope destroyed with the closure of some C A Bs due to government and local government cuts. Unemployed centres are underfunded and closed, so the only hope left is us, the trade union movement. I know some regions send messages out to their members who've just lost their jobs, expressing hope that they desire please stay with us, we can help ya. This we must do, we've gotta help our unemployed members because some of those who are unemployed have been some of our best fighters and they're still in there fighting despite the fact they haven't their jobs. We've gotta support these colleagues. We must contact these people, we must build back the confidence to the unemployed, we've given these people who are unemployed our good training, we need their expertise to come back and fight again if we're gonna have any hope for the future. Hopefully, we can if we can retain some membership, then obviously hopefully we can put some money to return to these unemployed centres and give the government what it needs, a good kick up the arse. Do I get me tankard now? I move. Brian, have a cuppa tea. Two seven nine formally seconded? Thanks very much indeed. Composite motion ten Unemployment and Work for Lancashire Region to move. Yeah, no, if you, if you're supporting it colleague, we've not been taking support in all, all week and indeed I know how important it is and we'll, pardon? No if it's thirty seconds for you, it's thirty seconds off somebody else colleague. I'm sorry. The only exception was yesterday in the debate on the Toxic Syndrome, that was the only exception I do apologize. Mandy? Amanda , Lancashire Region, proposing motion Unemployment and Benefits it's been composited. Congress, president, this motion is calling for an economic policy that combats mass unemployment. That is probably an impossible dream as far as this present government is concerned. This evil and sadistic Tory government are responsible for destroying millions of jobs as a conscious policy and continue to pursue the toll with further deliberating tactics like V A T on fuel. The government policy for creating jobs is to re-introduce slavery, working for benefits no-pay Britain. This policy is back in the desk drawer at the moment, but it is clearly going to be placed back on the table, since the government is even considering charging thirty pound a night for N H S beds. Workfare is about doing away with jobs, employers will want to substitute workfare for real jobs, reducing still further the number of people in work, increasing still further the poverty and misery suffered by millions in Britain today. The government does not encourage investment in industry, even in training the workforce or providing a long-term investment bank. The government fails to support industries that are of strategic importance to the economy like mining and ship building, no support for laying , yet when it comes to the Arthur Daleys, the unscrupulous employers, the get rich quick merchants, it coughs up the cash. It proposes to provide these gangsters with subsidies in the form of free labour. How long will, how low will this corrupt government stoop? I move. Thanks Mandy. formally seconded? Thanks very much. Motion two eight three Workfare, London Region to move. President, congress, Roy , moving motion two eight three Workfare. The word workfare is a term we have imported from America, the America, where if you are unemployed, homeless, you're a scrounger, a drop-out a no-good, something less than human. Therefore, if they, the unemployed, want help from the State they must pay back from that State with some form of work, because you can't have something for nothing, not in a capitalist market economy. It will undermine the work ethic. I say that philosophy is rubbish or to use the language of the shop floor, it's a load of bull. Unemployment is not the fault of the individual worker, he she is the victim not the blame. In Britain in nineteen ninety three we are hanging on to the remains of our welfare state by our fingertips. It is being attacked daily by that real group of parasites, the Tory Party, the Tories will no doubt bring in workfare just as soon as they've softened up the wider public with their slavish friends in the media. The tabloid press will publish stories of dole scroungers laying in bed all day, living the life of Riley on the dole, blaming the unemployed and making them feel guilty for a desperate plight. Colleagues, the types of work that will be offered in an ac to the unemployed will be community work clearing rubbish from sites, cleaning public buildings and open spaces. Jobs which should be done by full-time workers paid at proper rates of pay, real jobs to put back dignity into the lives of such, so many of the unemployed. If you really want a market economy to work, then you pay workers decent rates of pay for their labours. Yet we find our leading members of the Labour Party accepting the argument for some form of workfare. There is a strong moral argument within the labour movement, that rejoke rejects workfare and other half-baked schemes which do not give a fair day's work for a real fair day's pay. We want real jobs for real money. This union along with the Labour Party should have no with the philosophy of workfare, it once and once and for all reject this philosophy and send it back to the bad old days of workhouses, parish guardians, the real Victorian values. Colleagues, reject the ideas of workfare, make sure the ideas are not adopted by the Labour Party Two eight three formally seconded? Thanks very much. Emergency motion number two Midland and East Coast Region. Linda , Midlands and East Coast Region. Emergency motion number two, Pit Review on Closures. President, congress, I first pay tribute to the Women Against Pit Closure Group for their cour cour determination and yes, sheer bravery. They stood up to be counted, to save their men's jobs, their community and their families' futures and I salute their courage and wish them well in their pit vigil. Congress, this call review was a whitewash, the Tories underestimated the strength of public feeling against the pit closure programme. In fact, the proposed mass redundancy in and around the mining industry was probably the straw that broke the camel's back for the British people. I've never seen the President of the D T I look so harassed and frightened for his own future. Did he perhaps realize maybe he's been set up as well? The was once described this country as a lump of coal surrounded by fish which highlighted our two great natural assets, to which oil and natural gas has been added. We have an energy-rich country and a massive trading balance, so why the hell are we importing electricity from France which I believe attracts the nuclear and importing coal from dubious sources and I have been told that some of that coal has been extracted by women and children, often in horrendously unsafe conditions. We are now going ahead in burning of our finite natural gas resources like there is no tomorrow. Congress, I'm not an economist, but none of this makes sense to me, relying on heavily subsidized coal imports leaves us wide open to be exploited. When we shut our pits, the price of these coal imports will go up, a pit closure brings massive hardship in the surrounding communities. Redundancy payments go towards paying off house mortgages, but these miners can't then sell up and move. Little industrial units employing a handful of people working for peanuts is not the answer to mass redundancies anywhere. There is a personal concern in all this for me, I ain't a miner, but I do work and represent G M B and Apex members working directly for British Coal. We manufacture the conveyer belts that carry the lads to the face and bring the coal out. Between six and ten years ago, there was a hundred and eighty pits in this country, yes a hundred and eighty pits, now we have a handful left and it has been leaked that all thirty one pits will still be closed within twelve months, done quietly and by the back door ignoring procedures and over the years this is what has been done. Arthur Scargill, love him or loathe him, has been telling us but nobody listens. Well we know that in our company by the jobs lost, we know that in the Midland region because it could be a loss of up to ten percent of our membership, six thousand members. I took over a hundred members to the rally in Hyde Park, erm two thirds of my workforce, and it was magnificent to see all the trade unionists there, especially the G M B banners. Some of my members were overwhelmed by the sheer numbers there and it brought a lump to my throat, but that's what it's all about, solidarity. Now take note members of the press, when the Tory's paymasters, the big industrialists and the C B I start squealing, there's panic on the Tory benches. The coal review did nowt for them either. Sadly, mass closures and redundancies have become commonplace, it's no longer hitting the headlines, just a few small columns in the paper, so I ask you delegates, go back to your branches, raise the issue not just about coal but about all unemployment, chase up the media, write to your M P, especially the Tories, support the rallies and maybe a petition from this conference could be organized, but I say raise hell, give them no peace, one job loss is one too many and we ain't gonna accept redundancy in any of our sections without a bloody good fight. So let's take the gloves off now, please support. Well done Linda. Is emergency motion two formally seconded? Thank you very much. I'll ask the General Secretary to reply to the Debate. John General Secretary replying to the debate on jobs and recovery. As you may have noticed other debates have attracted rather more publicity this week, but the theme of our congress is jobs and recovery because jobs and recovery is the most important issue for our members and for Britain. Sometimes the comparisons between the performance of this country and the performance of other countries amazes me. We're often told, including by government ministers, that we should follow the lead of Japan, to emulate their manufacturing methods and copy their working practices. So how did Japan respond to the recession? The Japanese government announced two spending packages amounting to over a hundred and ten billion pounds. Public works programmes, new transport investment, house building investment and industry. Japan's economic package reads like a resolution to a trade union conference. So does Kenneth Clarke copy this example? Does he hell! He says the most important problem in the British economy is public borrowing and that Britain will make cuts in public spending. The analysis is crazy, the reason why we have a public deficit is because three million people and more are out of work and paying no tax. The best way to cut public borrowing is not to cut public investment, but to cut unemployment. I trust that that will be the simple and single point which will be pressed very hard by the Labour Party in the economic debate in Parliament this afternoon. The one certain thing is that workfare has no place in the economic policy of a civilized country. That's why we urge you to support composite ten and motion two eight three. Although I have to say that the implication in two eight three that Labour is flirting with workfare is misplaced, we've said some harsh things about the Party this week, but there is no possibility that I know of of the Labour Party supporting any form of workfare whatsoever. Motion two seven nine makes very sensible proposals about how we might support unemployed members. We would like to examine those ideas in more detail, and I hope that London will agree to refer so that the examination can take place. So support composite eight, composite ten, motion two seven eight and motion two eight three with that qualification, emergency motion number two and let's campaign for any effective policy for jobs and recovery and not this nonsense that is served up every week from this silly government. That's my response on behalf of the C E C. Thanks very much indeed John, I propose to take the vote. Composite eight has been accepted. All those in favour? Against? That's carried. Motion two seven eight has been accepted. All those in favour? Against? That's carried. Motion two seven nine as the General Secretary has indicated is asking for reference. Does London agree? Thanks very much Brian. Composite number ten is being accepted. All those in favour? Against? That's carried. Motion two eight three has been accepted. All those in favour? Against? That's carried. And the emergency motion number two is being accepted. All those in favour? Against? That's carried. Conference, Linda in moving emergency motion number two referred to pit closures as a disaster, but there are certainly even greater disasters of pit closures and in nineteen fifty one, forty two years ago, there was a disaster at Easington Colliery where eighty one pit men lost their lives. More recently local trade unionists and many of the members of our organization in Easington decided that to commemorate the, the occasion, they would work to get a new trade union banner for the Easington Trade Union Council and that's the example and that's the reward of their particular work a magnificent tribute to those pit men that died eighty one years ago, er forty two years ago. To mark the occasion Doctor David Jenkins, the Very Reverend Bishop of Durham, blessed the banner. The Church and radicalism and radical thought don't always go hand-in-hand. David as some colleagues will know is a member of the House of Lords and there isn't much radical thought in the House of Lords. During this particular week, we've had a number of speakers, guest speakers at the rostrum and there'll be others that will follow the Reverend Jenkins to the rostrum but the working people of Durham and trade unionists and the miners in particular have very good cause to thank the Reverend David Jenkins. During the miners strike you will recall he was tremendously supportive and outspoken and is still outspoken against this government's attack on working people. The people of Durham as I say are very fortunate indeed. Amongst all the speakers we've had here this week, I don't think that there's any of them more supportive to the trade union movement than the Very Reverend David Jenkins. He's certainly amongst friends this morning, we're his friends and we ask him to address conference. Thank you very much David. Thank you very much Mr President and as you've been friendly enough to invite me and given me such a friendly welcome, I, I thought I ought to risk speaking to you as candidly as I can about what is going on in our country and our communities at the moment and whether by the end of the thing I continue your friend is another matter. In my part of the world, which is north east England and especially County Durham, nobody much really believes all this talk about an industrial and economic recovery which will be so strong and so widespread that most people will be back in the sort of jobs they used to have, providing they get the necessary training. In our part of the world we keep up the brave talk for the sake of the image of the region, so that there may be at least some inward investment and so that those industrialists, small business, training centres, local enterprises and cooperatives which are struggling so hard to make a go of it, will not be discouraged from at least having a go, but there isn't much hope and conviction really. For one thing, the region is faced with a demoralizing example of great in er investments of human resources, skill and modern technology being simply thrown aside, as at Swan Hunter and in our coal mines. For another thing, the region is one of the edge of things if I may so put it and that's why I'm down here I mean as, as I know when we're up there we're at the centre of things, but lots of people don't it's all these odd ideas that go around in the barbaric south that's the trouble! But there it is, and outside and foreign firms will put money in, especially if subsidized by temporary government measures, for as you know, public investment in private industry is judged to be ideologically correct, while public investment for public and community concerns is judged ideologically to be harmful, but the firms are interested in making money out of the region if I may so put it, not in sustaining world promotion and healthy living in the region. One shift in the market and investment is withdrawn, firms close, production is transferred so it's dicy. For another thing the most profitable processes today simply do not need large amounts of labour and is it seriously expected by the government that as long as we avoid being tied down by the social chapter, we shall become such a reservoir of cheap labour, that we shall become cheaper and more exploitable than the labour force in the Third World? Is that the way we are to become competitive again? So I have to ask has anyone, and I underline anyone, who talks about economic policies, recessions, recoveries and jobs, yet begun to face up to the way everything depends on growth as before and even more growth than before. Yet we are in a very contradictory situation with regard to growth. A small example of this, which we are perpetually living within the north east is the following. When our locals assessed success story, the Nissan Plant, sells less cars, it's an economic threat and could become an economic disaster, when the plant sells more cars, it adds to the increase in number of cars on the roads which represents a pollution threat and contributes to a pollution disaster, let alone traffic problems of course. It's as well to laugh and I'm, I'm especially able to encourage you because I being a Christian know you know that sin won't have dominion over you so that you needn't be solemn about it but it is serious and you see this contradiction is there, despite the fact that the factory and the company are actively concerned in restraining pollution. They are responsible about their productive processes and they are responsible about the design of car engines and we are told that the market will find ways to deal with this, but surely it cannot, for after all the market is mindless, so it cannot take into account either the future or the needs and wishes of people other than those who have the purchasing power for immediate consumption. So, well before we get on to any issues to do with the structural poverty of the Third World, maintained by the wealth extracting efforts and arrangements of our Western world, we can surely see why quite a few people do not really believe in recovery through economic growth and consumption and we need to ask whether we ought to want it anyway, but people in the Tory Party and in the Labour Party in the City with a capital C and the trade unions with a Capital T and a U go on talking as if our goal must be jobs and recovery in the same old way, technologized, computerized and skillerlized of course with strong dashes of management insights and so on but in no way basically changed. Are we never going to use our various collective skills, institutions and organizations, as well as our particular imaginations, insights and inventiveness to face up to this false prospectus, false prospectus we are trying to live by? Now, I put it to you that it is obvious that we all know and suspect it is a false prospectus and that the sort of recovery it implies is just not on. Our behaviour shows it, although our talk, discussion and our political agendas and conference agendas do not. Look, I'm afraid, for example at yourselves, there we go all you are contributing to the political debate in this country at the present moment is a quarrel about the trade union block vote in the affairs of the Labour Party. The press therefore has a field day, the Labour Party is diverted and distracted and all the politicians have joined a family squabble on an alleged matter of vital principle, but it is all to do with power within the Party, so we are entirely diverted from the questions we ought to face but cannot face up to. These are questions about what sort of growth in what sort of industry and commerce would actually be sharable in sustaining ways, not only in our own country, but across the world, but it is just too much of a challenge to face up to the question of how you get power to influence that. So we stick to arguing about power within I say a party, and we do not get on about policies and programmes. Mind you, you in the trade unions and in the Labour Party are no worse than anyone else. That's where Christianity comes in again actually solidarity we go on hoping and fighting and imagining, despite whatever goes wrong with anybody but the Tory Party is diverting itself with internal feuds and in focusing attention on whether Mr Major will remain Prime Minister or not and this is presumably so that they may ignore the real issues of how to the get the country onto some shared basis of consensus, trust and pragmatic politics which would give our society a chance of facing up to questions of economics, politics, pollution and living together in community in the sort of world we've actually got. Now just in case you think I'm sinking into the role of a self-righteous preacher, who enjoys telling other people off about their sins, so that he doesn't have to bother about his own, and I should warn you that once I was asked to go to a, a series of lectures in a certain cathedral on the seven deadly sins, because the Canon who invited me said he wanted a married man who was good on lust! Against it that is I must add in all honesty and so we must face up to things that the churches at any rate in their public and visible life are in just the same state. In my own turfs we are quarrelling among ourselves with intense energy about whether women can be ordained priests, about who is more Catholic than their neighbour and about a whole host of internal issues, because we apparently have neither the grace nor the guts to face up to the real issues which are the business of the Church in the current world. You know issues such as the credibility of God, the resources available for neighbourliness of hope and the help that is available from religious sources to overcome misery in our society, prime in our neighbourhood and apathy and indifference all round. In our various parties, organizations and institutions therefore we urgently need to recognize that most of our programmes, not least the programmes of our conferences and synods if I may leave you together in sin brothers and sisters are most of the programmes are really to do I would say with displacement activities rather than replacement activities. That is to say we are, we all need renewal and new ideas, but we stick to old quarrels and re-run old battles because we don't know how to face up to the real problems at the present, nor to find ways of working together for a worthwhile future. Of course, we cannot just get out of the routines and struggles and problems we are already engaged in. It's important for instance to guard safety at work. You have to try and improve trading skills and efficiency and it is vital to maintain organized groups of women and men who are committed to fighting locally and at all levels for ordinary decent decency and simple justice in the way people are treated of course, but we have got also to find ways of getting together to face those problems no one knows how to solve. Our future requires that we focus our images on finding ways forward to a possible, tolerable and sharable society instead of wasting our time quarrelling with our allies and colleagues. If we cannot even face the present, of course we cannot build the future. Let me therefore suggest three things I am clear we ought to bother about. Pragmatic coalitions, collaborative democracy and local communities. That sounds splendid I'm sure when translated into management jargon, but let, but let me repeat it. Pragmatic coalitions, collaborative democracy and local communities. My rule is when skating on thin ice move fast, so I shall get Pragmatic coalitions. Our present party system and the way it works in elections has passed from being nearly useless to being pretty dangerous. It is obvious that the government doesn't know how to respond to the messes it has partly created and partly suffers from. Yet no one stops it or persuades it to change its mind. We have already had reference this morning to the outcry against the handling of, of the mine closures and it was immense, the case was made by the Parliamentary Success er Select Committee for some serious thinking about energy policy for the future, yet the government did not think again, the political debate was at the level of whether Mr Heseltine would remain in power and nothing was changed. There was in other words an immense amount of political activity with absolutely no result and the details of that already has been referred to in moving energy both erm in emergency number two, so I can make, need make no reference, more reference to it, but we have left ourselves surely, totally dependent in a short future from outside the country on our energy. Where shall we go then? What is that to do with investing in enterprise? Again, whatever the problems about education they are clearly great. How can you develop schools for children and curricula for developing intellectual, social and personal schools skills, in collaboration with parents, teachers and pupils if those in power neither consult nor trust, nor show any signs of respecting the opinions of those persons most intimately involved. Yet the plans go ahead relentlessly and so on. There seems no readiness in our government to listen and learn for argument, no capacity for trust and no ability to face the facts which include the vital issues morale and motivation, ways of running things which you simply can't put down to cost accountants, but which is absolutely essential to do with solidarity and caring and so on to make things actually work, and as for economics, whenever econor economy from the Germans, upwards or downwards so to speak, is in trouble the future is clearly frightening isn't it? But the political paralysis continues, the Labour Party and the unions quarrel and the notion of coalition is constantly repudiated. Now, I would say how stupid can we get? Have we become so depressed about any real prospect of newness that we've decided to enjoy our chains, masochistically dwelling on our miseries and inadequacies? Is it beyond the wit, guts and grace of ordinary men and women to re-assemble in fresher alliances on the basis of fresh thinking? Across parties, across ideologies and fixed ideas, to collaborate for a real change which surely must come. The task for collaborative coalitions is clear, firstly get rid of the Tory government. I think they would be relieved. They obviously need a rest and further, and this is not meant to be a joke, in my own experience, if they get time to think quietly and realistically, I believe a whole lot of decent Conservatives who used to think pragmatically, organically and with respect for local communities, would emerge to contribute to a coalition for the future over against the ideological block that seems to think we use people to make money, instead of making money to serve people and their communities. Now coalition which changed the face of party politics would stimulate fresh approaches to our problems. It is surely obvious that we cannot go on as we are as we pollute the world and as poverty increases, along with violence, vandalism and random destruction, more of it at Gateshead last night apparently. We have immense technological and communication resources. If we had to think and had to think together we would surely find ways forward. We could be aiming our political energies towards facing the real issues. We could stop pretending that some of us have solutions which are vastly and obviously superior to others, when we all know really that our solutions are not good enough, and in this way you would come together in creative activity instead of fragmenting into ever more divisive and destructive activities which are technically called displacement from one another A lot to learn from animals including the fact that animals can't actually be bestial! That wasn't in the text of course. So, seeking pragmatic coalitions needs to be combined with a new commitment to collaborative democracy. Centralized government, Whitehall as the founder of all regulation and one party in perpetual power is an obvious recipe for incompetence, even more than it is for tyranny, although bureaucratic tyranny and arrogant assumptions of having no need to listen do produce threats of tyranny. We need to restore a whole range of intermediate institutions, unions come in here as do professional organizations, healthy, local democratic government and voluntary and charitable bodies, not to mention the churches. Such bodies are needed to break up centralized power to encourage participation and restore morale to ordinary people by convincing them that they do count, that they are listened to and that they can participate. In short, restoring ordinary people as part of the we who run things, rather than the them for obstacles to be regulated, managed, I fear even duped and certainly simply left out, and the chief place to focus our search for pragmatic coalitions and cooperative democracy must be in our local communities. That is where people live and that is where we must support one another in enduring the present, while we imagine better things, fight for better things and gradually achieve better things. I am personally impressed and encouraged by what is going on in some of the hardest hit areas in my part of the world and by a series of what you might call chance accident, we've actually got a sign on it on the platform here. Were you to turn over that banner which is I think magnificently designed, you would find the other side is entirely about international connections between workers and various groups and so on, so it's got the international, the wider version and I'm delighted to to know that you have here, you I understand that the G M B is perhaps the only body which has the nearest thing to a formal alliance with the trade union in Germany I mean this is tremendous. This is where the future lies however you have to deal with the particular problems of Maastricht and all the rest and on this side, and it really was very moving that, in a way by chance, but you know again I believe I think sometimes God is in you better of course When I went to what was in effect not merely the memorial of the fifty aft after fifty two years of the people, but of course really the funeral service of the pit and when I went to that here was the chance to dedicate that also, we did it actually at the Memorial Garden where all the pit people are buried and that is right you see, picking up out of the past not sticking in the past, and arranging it as you might say as in that banner to move on into the future. So I, I was very moved to find that this has arrived and I don't think it's romantic nonsense, I think it is related to the business of getting people together locally. People are realizing that you just cannot expect much of them and that one way of improving local lives is to get together in local communities and groups and participating wider area networks and in such coalitions of people,th th they manage to keep some sort of community spirit and activity going. They find new ways of sharing what resources there are, whether collaborating in local policing or working with health authorities or whatever it is and I think they form the base for renewal of politics because we have to recreate politics for localities upwards and here, just finally chancing my arm, I must just frankly say that I am not clear that over-large amalgamations of unions will be much more helpful than over-centralized government bureaucracies. One of the advantages of not knowing too much about things is that you can keep sacred cows in the without noticing. Of course we have the additional complication that the over- large government bureaucracy's at present run by a political party which seems to have given up thinking about anything much other than staying in power and I know and hope that you will be part of thinking about much more than that, but still even with a large union, you could regulate concentrate on stimulating the grass roots and then on building upwards. Anyway, I was asked by the organizers to contribute to the debate on jobs, recovery and communities. I have done my best. I hope it does not encourage you to do your worst! But rather to join in the search for new ways forward for the common future of our society and I suggest you might do worse than try a few committees and working groups on pragmatic coalitions, collaborative democracy and local community. Thank you. Thank you very much indeed. You did say er, Bishop that you were going to be frank and you certainly turned a few corners there for us to think about. Thanks very much indeed. Er colleagues rule forty five Workplace Representatives motion eighty three to be moved by the Northern Region. President, congress, Tom Northern Region, moving motion eighty three. Colleagues, workers' unity is the only force which protects working people against exploitation by unscrupulous employers. Yet in almost every workplace in Britain we all know there are people who are willing to receive all the benefits of working in a trade union workplace, but too unknown to their colleagues, refuse to pay the costs. Such people colleagues are usually the first to voice their concerns, first to criticize union officials, yet secretly at the end of each week, their pay packet shows no deductions for trade union fees. If trade union solidarity is to mean anything, it must mean that each and every worker sharing equally in the benefit of members and paid equally for the service. Freeloading in our society is common place, however in the G M B organization built upon the principles of justice, it is a duty to cut out all such freeloading. Congress, this motion would make the rulebook obligation for all shop stewards to honour that duty and to freeload members not just from the exploitation of employers, but also the exploitation of freeloading. Colleagues, I move. Thanks very much. Is that formally seconded? Formally seconded? Thanks very much. I now call Colin with the C E C are seeking reference. Colin to put C E C point of view. Pardon? Yes. Yes, we're doing eighty three at the moment Colin. Just eighty three. on motion eighty three the C E C agreed that membership Yeah. That membership consolidation is important, but with check-off and other payment methods and the issue of computer printed cards valid for two years, we feel that there are alternatives and better methods to investigate. in order to allow us to do that examination, I make a recommendation on such erm checking. Thank you. Thanks Colin. Does the Northern Region accept reference? Yes, Conference agree? Thanks very much. report Mick . Okay if I could say good evening and welcome to the theatre this evening the reason the meeting has been convened this evening quite clearly is part of the process and art structure for Harlow having undertaken by the Council, the Playhouse is keen as it says quite clearly on the leaflet is to to get the publics view on how best to plan this programme and it's, and facilities for the future. It has been some debate er on the board and the management committee about the direction the theatre should be going into the nineteenth century twentieth century and I think and I and I think it's important that this meeting hopefully will be very constructive in the sense that is important that the theatre actually gets the views of people use the building, and people actually come along and support the of the theatre. So I hope hopefully this evening will be a very constructive meeting and we'll certainly welcome your views about what you feel should be happening to the theatre or should be taken or should be taken place at the theatre, what should be on at the theatre, and er things that you feel that aren't happening at the moment. We did if I can give some background we did actually target er twelve thousand, five hundred mailer shots for this meeting this evening I'm not sure what the people here are representing percentage for that and we also targeted over about a hundred organisations with mailing shots telling people the meetings on this evening. In my concern as Chairman of the Board was that er if very few people turned up then perhaps people might say that we didn't go around go about advertising it in the correct way what I think we actually did I'm not sure how many people are here this evening, but I should think it's somewhere in the region of about hundred and, hundred and fifty, so I hope that the meeting this evening sort of cross representation people actually use facilities which the playhouse offers. Can I just introduce people on the platform to you this evening. My na mes Tom and I'm chairman of the trust, have Roy who is chairman of the management committee, Ron is vice who who who's vice chair of the board, Gordon I'm sure everyone knows is the general manager and John who is the company's secretary. There have been some hand outs as you come in hopefully you've actually picked them up, on part of that hand out is a questionnaire towards the end which I hope everybody will find the time to fill in. There's no need to put your name and address if you er choose not to do but I think we will actually value your your views on that questionnaire and certainly use those views in the coming months. So if I can open the meeting by saying that we obviously welcome questions this evening and points of view and I would like to open the meeting by asking quite clearly about how you er see best plan for the theat theatre in future and how it's programme of facilities for the future should be programmed and planned. Er Mr Chairman just a a point for clarification the about the . When the previous meeting took place with the consultants. Yes. I rather got the impression that they would take him er, er, continue interest in what would happen, I've got the impression they have a representative here to give their view of how it was er This, I think the Counc the Council commissioned the partnership report and I right yes think the Council had a time meeting to actually discuss that report with, with yeah right yeah the public. I think from that report there was a there was a requirement or request that perhaps the theatre should actually have a public meeting to talk about which way the theatre was going what things were going on at the theatre and that's what the meeting is for this evening. Yeah but I thought they. The meeting sorry the meeting this evening is quite clearly is to talk about get your views on how best to plan the programmes for the facilities for the future. Yes but if there is I thought if one of their representatives was gonna be here just to answer questions about their views no no no Don't you think that'd be useful Sorry. Don't you think that'd be useful No I think this is board meeting and as a board I think were interested to get your points of view what isn't taken place that you'd liked to take place and what you'd like to see in the future well and that's why the meetings been convened. Yes you do have four other colleagues on the side. Because their also board members. Oh I see Okay. Okay. Thank you. . Can I just ask the other question perhaps which is relevant when people do make a contribution if they actually identify themselves so that may be useful if actually know who people are representing themselves or representing an organisation. Chair my name's Pete from Partnership's I'm here as a member of the public I'm not here to speak on behalf of the theatre at all. I might have something to say later on in the meeting but I thought that people should be aware that there is a continuing interest from Partnership's in the abundance of an art structure within Harlow and I I am here taking notes of people's comments thank you. Thank you. Okay. Can we get into the meeting? Sorry go on sorry go on. I'd like to start off by saying I I . Could I have your name please? Sorry. Yes Kenneth er er I've just finished managing Relate. I think I I just represent myself. I I've been coming here for forty years so far and and provocative statement I think in your programme this Autumn is the best that you've had for years it's a very good combination of classical and and modern plays and I really congratulate you on this programme and I would like to see that standard maintained. Well thank you for that that's a very good start to the evening. . Thank you. Jan erm I've just recently started a job as a drama teacher and I must say there isn't actually anything in the programme that's actually on my A level syllabus for drama and I think it might be something er it a help to schools if maybe there was a play put on specifically schools to come and see I think to comment on.. I just say that I'm sorry go on don't want to be dejective this evening but I mean minutes will be taken notes will be taken points have been raised I think that's a very valuable point that you've actually have raised. Can we can we can we find out from the teacher whether in fact the school actually gets a a our information leaflet. Ehm is a it isn't actually a a erm a new school it's Birchwood High School it used to be Margaret Dane which has been established a few years but Birchwood just been started for a year erm it has is some information but obviously there haven't been any feedback from the school so I starts there. Chair can you ask people to speak up. A lot of people have very soft voices. You haven't Bill John . I wanna put this er question of what this playhouse is about a back to to to a stage to to the platform because I think that's where it belongs er were here to criticize but not to initiate. Er many of us remember Gordon in the sixties working with a small group to get this place built thirty years on does he feel the playhouse is doing what he then hoped for and if not what are the things that have changed it? None but it's thirty years on. . I'm one of the original directors of the theatre and er Mr Chairman what worries me is this. I think we have to face facts, first fact is the the priority of the board must at this time be survival. Financial survival. Er if you couple that with the action of Eastern Arts who I understand have cut the subsidy er for this er theatre I think that's correct, erm, as I understand on the grounds that a not enough they mean imaginative or progressive which to me means weird play to put on . Er couple the two together they don't really make sense because this type of experimental theatre never pays, can't pay. Er in my opinion at this particular time we must bear in mind the financial constraints that we work under and er would the board agree with me that erm survival comes first yes but it's obvious that the programme that we've er had put forward is a good compromise between preferred in the arts, maintaining the theatre as a viable proposition and er entertaining the people of this particular part of the world because as I understand it this theatre was not just the artist also an entertainment centre and it's in this area that er it's quite obvious when you look into the figures on this area the popular area that the majority income comes so you'll have to make a compromise and I will congratulate the board on what I think is pretty reasonable compromise so it's quite obvious in the programme. at the back I can't. Tom I'm just a punter represent nobody. I come to theatre regularly I agree with my friend over there I think you have a very good programme quite mixed not all my taste but it's it's representative of the tastes of the people who want to come. Unfortunately with got to get some of those people who don't want to come and it's all about bums on seats it's the old old saying bums on seats we've got to get an answer how we don't get to these here at the moment in the audience whether they are people who want to get bums on seats or how they know how to do it perhaps they should have a meeting like this every month I've never seen so many of . .. I'll give you my fee later. Seriously though we've got to get people into this theatre on a more regular basis. A few years ago I saw a couple of Eastenders stars come in erm and Ross whatever his name forget his name there were two young girls standing in front of me scraping pennies out of their purse to get in though we loved that character they wanted to come that night we've got to get girls like that youngsters like that interested to come on other nights and then come again that's what needs doing.. Keith . Erm representing myself. I think I agree with the gentleman over there I think the youth of this particular town who on average spends somewhere in the region of fifteen and twenty pounds a week going to Highwire and going to pubs erm you need the attraction to the theatre. How that's done I don't know how do we reach these people there's a broad sheet that goes to the school's am I right Jan? I wouldn't know actually Keith at the moment. I'm sure there is though. Yes there is to all of them. Erm can I ask how that's funded first of all is that funded through is that funded through the council. It's currently funded chair by er B P and we're very grateful for them. Okay is that do we know if that funding is going to continue?. Perhaps we sort through this original question we can pick up on that. Okay. about how many copies where they've actually gone that that is some that is sent out to all school's and quite considerable numbers are sent out. What's the actual figures on that Gordon Published three times a year and a thousand copies and distributed to all school's within a very wide area through the Education Authority. Do we get a feedback from school's at all? Yes, We do quite considerably through the . And and that I presume that the feedback is analyzed and decided from maybe as to the content of what goes on in studio and also on the main stage. sort of a sort of er points Jan made. Really it would be nice of we to have A level plays so A level student could come and see. But that has been in the past and that was a thing that we had for several years had A level plays actually on the stage am I correct? I think I am. I'm sorry I can't erm. As far as the as far as A level as far as A level plays are concerned I think with had them on the stage before now over the last five ten years as far as I'm concerned. One of the problems is of course is finding the product available. Do you not got to the school's for suggestions? Well yes of course. You do? We know what we know what plays . Mike just a point of information I have been teaching in Harlow for twenty years and I've never been asked by anybody at the playhouse what play's who's like to see in my school. My name is Pamela . We used to come to the theatre once a week but since the demise of the money saver two for the price of one scheme with only come really twice a season. I think it's great shame that were not able to come more often now but I don't think that the replacement scheme is really a replacement cos it relies on you getting the most expensive seats I would rather see lots of things cheaply rather than just one or two things more expensively it also doesn't include studio theatre many of the productions I think are excellent and there's no advantage there. Here here .. Paul erm involved in a number of erm in a number of amateur companies apparently working as a casual member of staff. I have one question which relates to the article double page article in this weeks Harlow Star. Er that is that at least three of the articles are talking to quoting different organisations er suggested that the playhouse theatre trust had been recommended to do something about their marketing er a at least two years ago if not longer ago erm certainly it's my knowledge er they have not employed specialists to that they have not employed a specialist to that indeed since the last er appointed publicity officer left, that person that post has not been er refilled er could I ask the theatre trust why they have chosen not taken that recommendation seriously? I think as far as market is concerned we have sort of taken certain steps as far as the marketing is I mean the computerisation of ticket system gives us a much greater insight on marketing now cos you can actually see what people come to see and we can by the ticket that's actually sold and we can actually target people direct. And I think that the last year has actually improved the attendance at the theatre because do that. As far as employment of the ma marketing consultant or marketing persons concerned the actual costing of that has worked out something like between six sixteen and twenty thousand pounds now we've gone through a very difficult financial stage like many other organisations and many other theatres. At particular market in time whilst we agree as the board that we should employ someone and we intend to employ someone we just think at this particular moment in time it is very difficult for us to actually raise that sort of money on a regular basis. As soon as our financial situation has eased we'll certainly employ someone. But it isn't true to say I'd certainly say it isn't true to say that making the recommendations of our market have been slightly up recommendation in takings. The one that hasn't been in fact to employ somebody particularly perhaps to go out the market theatre but this particular mark in time it's been very difficult for a theatre to actually find twenty thousand this financial year in fact we had to find seventy thousand pound cuts, that was a very difficult exercise so the answer to your question is we accept that recommendation and as soon as the finance is available we intend to employ somebody to take on that task. Is now . Well if it's a question yeah yeah. Yeah erm, the reason I want to follow it up is because would you not agree er with a number of major companies in this country and in a time of recession rather than cutting back on your marketing and advertising you should in fact be increasing it in fact when the marketing But when manager should be be a major priority. Well that's what Breeze am keep telling me when I got to work in the morning it's about the time of recession people should advertise more not less that maybe but the hard financial situation of the theatre finds itself in is to find that sort of money is very difficult at the moment. We're not saying we can't we we we're against proposal we've had to take on the market person but until that finance situation is eased it's extremely difficult. Surely the point when you have no money to employ a marketing manager you won't need to employ one. I think there is a need for a marketing person.. Question directly relating to that point though is it not true that the Eastern Arts withdrawal of the ten thousand pound grant last year was directly related to criticisms made in both in the nineteen eighty six appraisal and subsequently and repeated both to The Star recently what with was that the marketing of the playhouse was drastically inadequate. No. Had you not improved your marketing is another sporting chance you've got your ten thousand pounds grant. No. Do you know why you lost the Eastern Arts drama? No. How is it then I put it this way . I'm sorry look I. How is it that you don't know and in your letter to me you said this trust did not know where that money had been withdrawn at the same time Andrew director of Eastern Arts was quite happy to write to me to tell me why he was quite happy to tell the press over the phone why how is it the trust didn't know? Well it would be very nice if Andrew actually wrote to the trust to tell them why in same details as he apparently told the press. Can I ask therefore why the Eastern Arts of appraisal report of nineteen eighty-six a major appraisal costing a huge amount of Eastern Arts money was not considered and and presented across. The Eastern Arts report of nineteen eighty six was never completed what the Eastern Arts did in actual fact was to produce a draft report and promised that the final report would be complete and circulate it as to date which is nineteen ninety-one we have not received the final report of the Eastern Arts appraisal. That isn't their story. Question question. Well it may not be their story but that's the fact. can I can I ask the funding of the playhouse. Certainly. Can I ask over the last six seven years what local companies have funded the playhouse and to what level? and how many of actually withdrawn and the reasons why they actually withdrawn? I don't think the theatre's ever been endowed with a great deal of fundings but one or two companies in the town that have been prepared to fund obviously the one that strikes me is Gilbey's cos the Gilbey bar I mean that was funded and like they've been over the years they have given money even fact as a sad note cos Gilbey's have actually demised now erm General Portfolio have actually taken on the role in Harlow of funding many things if you actually look all most things that have sponsored until recently have been sponsored by General Portfolio so they've been to the fore in er fundering funding. The the trust has actually approached several Council's in the area not just Harlow Council obviously but many many other Councils and I think there was only one other Council that provided some funding and that was something like two hundred and fifty pounds was offered at one time I think that's ceased now so there is no other Council although although it'd be interesting tonight although fifty per cent of the people who actually use this facility actually come from outside the town but there's no funding directly or indirectly from any other Council so my knowledge would be if you exclude B P exclude General Portfolio perhaps I'm doing other companies a disservice I can't think of any other major company in town that's actually provided but Gordon can you think of. Lloyds Bank. Lloyds. General Portfolio B P Pitney Bowes over the years have from time to time provided us with funding Is it simply been financial restraint by all those companies that that there isn't . Yeah their their funding tends to be they'll they'll fund something like a production or they'll say at you know if you put our name up were give you so much or General Portfolio perhaps will will fund a particular show or a series of show's or say were prepared to put a thousand pounds could you name six shows and we'll put our name on those show's when they're advertised but no company or other Council's actually prepared to come along and say were prepared to put money on a regular basis. Have you approached these companies? Yes we've approached on a regular basis we've we approach Yeah I mean me I it may be inappropriate at this moment in time to say we will do it now because of obvious reasons but prior to the recession it was an ongoing thing that the the board were in through the general manager were actually writing to many companies. I mean Cossor's er actually have provided funding in the past. Hm hm. Eh and perhaps were one of the major funders in the past I say General Portfolio until recently were the major funders er in the in the ninety ninety one but there's been no company that's been funding the theatre on a regular basis. Ehm what facilities would you actually give er on a broad spectrum so these companies that might want to fund the playhouse apart from the normal free tickets? Could you could you could you foresee the General Portfolio Portfolio bar? I not the Gilbey bar? We got the Gilbey bar but I no the answer to that question would be if any company or org organisation was prepared or wished to talk about funding the theatre in any way and I think were'd be more than welcome to sit down with and talk them and say well how would you perceive that which way would you like to go about it how can we assist that and I think we're be open to suggestions from them how they see it I mean you know it could be seats it could be programmes it could be any any arrange of things that we'd certainly welcome who approach us from companies but we I think we are pro-active in sense that we don't wait for that to happen we actually go out but was said early I think given the recession it has been difficult lately to actually go out to companies and say I mean sure companies like the Harlow Council find it extremely finance the finances extremely difficult on them and with the recession it's really difficult for them to actually find funding and I know lot's of companies who actually cutting back on it certain areas I think funding of oth outside organisations will be one of the areas they'll be cutting back on. So Mr Chairman sorry to bring it up again but er I think it's in line what this gentleman said er bearing in mind I think it is a fact that this is a reasonable theatre enjoyed by people from a very large catchment area could you please tell us what support the the er playhouse has had from the local authorities adjacent to Harlow. In my opinion they're they're pitiful. Nothing well we've no . Twenty five pounds from Braughing District council in nineteen seventy two.. I'm sorry I put a nought I thought it was two hundred and fifty but I'm advised it was twenty five . I I I hope I hope er Mr Chairman these facts are brought to the attention of the general public bearing in mind the general public over a large catchment area enjoy the facilities here. I principally in Harlow who the generous generosity of forsightness of the Council etc I hope these facts are publicised and perhaps shame these people supporting er you know this theatre . I think it's also entertainment the excellent wage of services placed on by Harlow Council. Yeah. And one of one of the things that I've got on a regular basis is the many of the things Harlow Council put on like pop concerts country and western have actually been used by people who who perhaps live outside of Harlow so the Council are now looking at a charging policy but also we should also gonna introduce into the theatre is the leisure card which actually includes that the people actually live in the town local and the reproductional sort of show if they can do so they should buy. And I think what the Council's got to do and I think what the what the what the theatre perhaps has to do is only make that leisure card more easily acceptable and available and also look upon the reductions that we give but that perhaps is a way of actually rewarding the people in Harlow to use the theatre and the contribution in actually paying for it at the expense of the people coming in from outside who perhaps don't pay anything towards the expense of the theatre. So a leisure card's been introduced now and will be I hopefully will be expand and give that sort of financial reward to people who live in the town. Thank you. I I think there's another way of looking at that. Yeah. I actually live in Sawbridgeworth. Yeah. And I come down here very regularly but my view is we don't get any discount if you like we don't get a leisure card. Right. And yet it's the people around Harlow were not supporting it what the hell are you going to do then ? Fifty per cent of them . I mean I know an awful lot of people outside Harlow who who come here but Harlow people could be said to be apathetic or not being marketed rightly. . I think I mean it was interesting cos someone said earlier about people coming in I mean once you get them in I mean I always feel it's like the pantomime each year which is an amateur pantomime yet the actual people coming in to see that I mean it's well in the ninety per cent 's and you talk to people when they come to see the pantomime and ver invariably the the mum's or dad's say no I don't normally come to theatre but I come to the pantomime and they enjoy it very much and when you talk to them they can say well what you think of it? Oh it's terrific you know it's a great building I like it I like what's going on and you say will you come back again? And they say yeah I will but but presumably that tapers off and they don't but it's an interesting thing that on particular when you're targeting certain things like pantomime do get people in I think there's lot's of people said this evening say actually build on that perhaps get those people to come back again so yes I did like it I I did like what I saw there I did like the way that I was treated I did like the whole ambience of the place like I'll definitely come back again will they be viable to do that? I would hope . There's a there's a perfectly example of marketing . Marketing . You've got a captive audience there why the hell don't you do it a sheet why don't you give them a programme for the next three months exactly what is happening. That way they won't drift off they will come back. We had erm no we we actually had done that we have given questionnaires out as programmes we actually asked people to I mean it'll be interest to see how many people fill it in this evening but there is a built in resistance by some people to actually fill in any sort of questionnaire er and in the past when we've actually done that I think the response's hasn't been that that brilliant. I'm I'm not not saying it's reasonable . So were talking about Harlow people just being apathetic. Well I'm not sure I mean it's interest I mean the the Council erm with another the Council looked upon attendances of the things Council do and many people who use the facilities in Harlow will argue we don't get anything like this where we live and we always find it like that you know it's that sort of mentality where people in Harlow may or may not say well course you get it in Harlow we expect it it's just there it just saves we know it's getting them people to use it but I talk to people I'm sure people who live in Harlow or the Council to people and Harlow people tend to think well yes yes it's all with always it's always there. So I mean it's winning people over because . There . I think it's fair to say that with this new computer erm the box office that we've got a lot of information can be stored on that and in future we'll be using a much more erm sophisticated in a scientific way for instance if you came here and book that seat that your sitting in tonight we would know on that computer what type of show that your discouraging coming to erm we can say to you we can send you out a leaflet saying the kind of er things that you'd like to see are on at the playhouse on such and such a date and we could even say to you would you like the seat that you normally sit in. And I think that that is is is. Well that's through marketing . And were doing it? Were doing it were doing it. Were doing it when? Now doing it now. Yes. Can I just say something else as well? I'm sorry erm as far as the schools are concerned you had presumably a lot of contact I mean as part of the national curriculum is if if you like is to build contact with the community and the schools. Could you not use the drama teachers in those schools to carry out the kind some of this kind of marketing as well. There's projects with the kids you know get the kids to to work on what they want what they want to see get them to work on their parents and find out you could find out then whether there is or not in Harlow. Certainly we er have extensive contacts with almost all the drama teachers in schools in the surrounding area through the amateurs in contact with them all the time. And that that shows that it that is true of working . And we're getting through that through the through the schools newsletter. But it I mean is it is it. One of the one of the difficulties is that that that theatres up and down the country have faced over the last two years of the new target that were brought in with the eighty eight education act where schools were not allowed to make a charge it could only be a voluntary contribution now the council of Great Britain have looked at this it's a problem cos of this decimated schools audiences. For many years we had a well known er. School . T R E company Molecule theatre which came originally from the Mermaid in They came here two or three times a year for seven or eight years and we use to pack 'em out. At the moment there isn't even a charging regulations came in the schools immediately cut back because it was a very definite barrier that was put up to prevent schools that prevented schools from from taking up that sort of er offer that they had done in the past and it's a major problem. Why therefore have you virtually abandon your students standby scheme. Sorry sorry if you sorry if you wish to speak. Sorry why therefore have you virtually abandon your students standby scheme? It's now available for only seven shows out of twenty seven in the next programme and only on the first night of each show and only at a cost of two pounds and these are the audience of tomorrow as I wrote to you Mr you neglect these people at your peril why've you changed the scheme? Are you saying you'd like to see that re-introduced? What's it why've you change it? No is that a question are you saying you'd like to see introduced ? Well yes please why'd you change it? Right right right well we we'll we'll look at that quite clearly. One I mean one of the reason's that we've actually changed these round and and don't think it's right is because the has a there's been a cut cut cost cutting exercise within the building. The theatre like most other organisations have actually looked for savings and this this trust has had to look for seventy thousand pounds savings. I mean when you're looking for seventy thousand pounds savings you can only do two things. You can either look at people's jobs because that's the bulk of the money goes or you look at the charging policy or you look how the building's run. Now we've actually found seventy thousand pounds worth of savings we haven't made anybody redundant and we've actually quite clearly taken in that seventy thousand pounds within our overall budget past decisions has had to be taken and they've been taken as I said earlier hopefully when the financial climate gets better we perhaps we'll be able to other things all or were revert back to things that we we do wish to do because the the financial restraints on us. If you're raising a particular point and the reason that we're here this evening is to look at things that people are raising we'll look at that report we'll look at the point your raising and er we'll we'll see if it validity to it. Sorry. My name's Derek in any profit-making org organisation the results shown by the playhouse would have automatically brought about a change of management or does the Chairman of the Harlow theatre trust still consider that it is running the business very smoothly? Your asking me as chairman of the board and I think I can speak to the board I think that the theatre has actually managed very well. Why the meeting then? Sorry. Why why is the meeting then? Why what? Running well? Cos I think it's important that er the the the theatre actually talks to the people who actually use the why are you saying we shouldn't be talking to people then? No I think I think it's it's it's a valid point to say that the trust should be talking to the people that actually use the building. Hm hm. Who've actually come in to see the shows to get there point of view to say what they like and what they dislike. To say whether they feel the things that that they like to see and that we're not doing. And has been said by several people who are here. There's things that we are doing like I've been told by a couple of people this evening the autumn programme they think it's very good very progressive very enjoyable I thi that that to me that reinforces the autumn programme by several people so people who here are people here this evening feel they we say something about what isn't on the agenda or what is on the agenda but I think that's what the meetings for but I don't think it's a bad exercise to talk to the people who actually pay come in the building I mean I think that's a valid exercise. I think it's a wonderful exercise why doesn't it happen more often? Well. It 's happen this evening. Cos of the marketing policy. Perhaps if it's so successful if it can successfully this evening perhaps we will do it more often. You will? . Sorry yes. I'm I'm really going to erm I afraid I have experience of Who are you sorry? Brenda Oh right. And you know me very well Tom. Yes... No . You don't look the same from this side of the light Brenda. That's right that's right. Is it a question for us ? The thing is I I me I've taken all my up here today. Yes. I have used this building from the very beginning. I have always turned up when people have asked me to put children in their shows. I came in to this building last year I've got people sitting here who've realised it wasn't a happy place to be I found it quite difficult. I have staff who's morale was very under. Sorry Brenda I don't I don't wanna cut in could you ask the question please? Well I'm asking. Sorry I'd like the the thing is question. There is not well alright then my question is . Say what you want. I I I. Why don't you shut up. You know the thing is I feel that when I was tried to get the theatre board and I have contacted various people on the board I have never been listened to. I feel I'm just regarded as a neurotic woman I've been told that by Mr I've found that is was very yes I have don't deny it. No you've not. I have tried every way I wrote let a letter hoping somebody would actually come and ask me what was wrong. I wanted to put a a morning on when I realised there was problems here just a morning an open morning which would of brought probably nine hundred thousand pounds into this building, in July I came in to try to see the Director of the playhouse I couldn't go through the written way because I was waiting for exam date to come through. I've tried three times to see Mr he wasn't available. I then gave a message to his secretary personal assistant and was told no the letter I receive was that I shouldn't go through something third hand you don't see what the other side is. I've got a big school we fill this place in when I come in here. I'm asking is there a way that the board would actually listen. You know if I if I don't if I've offended Mr in any way then that is one thing but I do put on bottoms on seats and I bring money into this building. I'm one of the people who've actually got the guts now to stand up and say that I .. Sorry I'm not sure yeah I'm not sure what decide but I'll be very clear what they would do. I think thing is. in there mind. People are frightened Ron there is a fear thing going on in this place. Yes. Which might sound terribly dramatic people are frightened that if you offend you will not use this building again. Here here. Here here. Here here. The staff here maybe I should be I shouldn't be saying this the staff are finding it very difficult I mean what I'm trying to say is for goodness sake eyes should be opened. We applauded because of the your new brochure And you are sorry. I'm Jean from the Harlow Symphony Orchestra. In your new brochure here that you've put on the table erm it says a meeting it doesn't actually say a meeting actually it says we need your ideas come along and tell us that's why we applauded.. Keith once again. I'm sorry not Keith once again we've got other speakers that haven't spoke once sorry.. Jim er as a private individual. er Mr Chairman your care to require question so here's a question. Is this a public consultation meeting? The meeting this evening is to get the public's views and how best to plan it's progress Why does a view have to be expressed as a question? Sorry? Why does a view have to be expressed as a question? Hm hm.. Chair Ian . following on from that er that the point that I think is being made is that a contribution does not have to be put forward in a shape of a question to be er a useful contribution to the debate and and your erm pressure upon er the lady who spoke er a while ago was er insisting that she she that's right addressed you in the in the form of a question that is not necessarily the the only way to conduct a debate and I think that's the point that's being made . Well I think it's sorry I don't think it will serve any purpose people actually get up and make character assassinations of other people and when were talk in terms of I said You said and He said I don't think that's a productive way to conduct the evening's business.. Quite clearly the reason that people have been asked to come along this evening and have come along this evening is to put there points of view about how the see the theatre in the future what is programme facilities are the things that aren't happening here they feel should be happening here that's what it's for not here to serve any purpose for individuals to get up and make personal cuts on people or say what happen on a Saturday morning or a Thursday afternoon cos I Anybody wishing if anybody wishes to ring me anyone I'm not I'm not you see I don't see that serves any purpose I'm sorry I do not think that serves any purpose if you wish to ring me outside this meeting I have rung you I have rung you. The reason I'm standing up here cos your not get things done in this town I'm sorry it is the only way of saying something . I'm available to listen and hear what they've got to say. They are not. And discuss it with them. They are not . That's quite clear I'm prepared to do that . I don't think people interrupting and shouting this evening will solve anything quite clearly . It is the only opportunity . Chair. Can I just say just say one thing Paul and for myself erm I don't think that Brenda just two things I'm a very against character assassination erm I don't think that Brenda was character assassinizing No no What she was doing is she was talking as a person who's got a genuine love of the theatre as we all have that's what were doing here looking for solutions now can I'm I'm as I said I'm not assassinating your character now but you're being very intimidating in the way that your talking to people.. Why is that? Because I don't. Sorry that's a question . What I'm trying to do is chair a meeting and to prevent what happening what's just happened when people start jumping up and shouting I don't think that's productive ways to chair any meeting or allow that to happen. No your not. The second thing productive I don't think it's productive for people to interrupt start shouting at me and chairing at me or shout shout at the platform cos I think all that's gonna happen there is the meetings gonna disintegrate and nothing will be as right. I've. The reason this playhouse the reason. I mean that sort of thing doesn't help it right. I agree with that I agree with him. The same person the same person all I'm saying the reason that the meeting was convened this evening and the reason that Paul wants the meeting this evening was to get the views from the public about what they felt was going on at the playhouse and what they would like to see that isn't taken place I think that was the thing behind the meeting and that's what we'd like to see right okay... If you generally want the views of the public it is no good trying to false those views through a straight jacket of your own to make it what you think there views should be unless of course they go right over the top in which they I don't think that's happened so far.. Chair can I try er to to wrap this up so that we can get back onto debate by delivering a question to you as chair? Yes. The point's that I think is trying to be made is that there are a lot of people here tonight who do wish to express an opinion and that opinion is not necessarily formulated in question form. Will you allow people to address the panel as a a comment and not just a question yes or no if you say no fine we all understand and we have to er formulate our our ideas as a question and we'll carry on that case is quite simple and straight forward like that. You are an experienced chair you're good at your job and if people get out of hand you know how to shut them up. I'm prepared for people who actually prepare to make comments yes I think you've got to limit the time and make comments not particularly what people get up and speak for ten minutes I don't think it's fair on the people this evening who've come along and put a question about why aren't you doing certain things I think that's and I don't want those people to actually come to a solution. I'm not prepared I'm not prepared for individuals to get up but if your not if you don't want to listen to what I've got to say that's okay but I don't I'm not prepared for people to perhaps to start making personal points about people actual work within the I certainly wouldn't do it I don't think it's it's a question of . Right you've made a point now . I think it's . I think you've spoken more than a few minutes. I'll continue to speak if you keep interrupting. I quite clear to do that okay thank you. Yes. . Where? I think there's a lady over there with her hand up When I say I can't see people I think it's the lighting but there is a sort of a I can't recognise people by face. Someone at the back yes . Mr chairman Derek I've lived in the town for something like thirty five years and seems to me that the problem here is a lot of mistrust between people who use the theatre and the board somewhere people are not getting answers. Would it not help if the board gave a written assurance to the people who've been complaining here that they will meet them on any occasion to discuss the problem in writing please because from Brenda it appears that it just does not happen. That's right. If we could have it in writing and we could publicise it I'm sure they would where to go and how to do it. If anybody has any absolutely yes I'll be quite happy I mean to me chairman of the trust or with management committee to meet anybody if they feel that they've got some concern they wish to discuss I'm quite happy to do that all I can say is that nobody has actually wro wro wrote to me or rang me to say they'd like to meet to discuss that and I'm quite happy to do that. You've had letters But I think it may be more appropriate if I actually met with say the management committee as opposed to myself yes I'm quite happy to do that to meet any individual or group who feel they have some concerns they wish to discuss and I give that I give that assurance this evening. Seems to be somewhere along the road or otherwise your gonna get nowhere nobody. Yeah I'm quite happy to do that. Sorry someone here yes. I'm Mrs and er the point I wanna make is that I understood when Jimmy Jones came here had two lovely full houses but I heard through the building through the grapevine that the members of the trust or council objected to him because he was racist his jokes and sexist. Now if you're talking about filling the seats it's obvious that the people in Harlow like that type of thing so why don't we have more of it.. The answer to that question would be that the Council's actually the Councillors adopt an equal opportunity policy and that policy now has been adopted by the theatre trust and the theatre trust wouldn't put anything on if they feel sexist or racist or ageist. That makes you like censors then No well that's that's a debateable that's a debateable point but I think that would that is the policy of the board . Talking about bums on seats here. Well we could I mean there are many ways there are many ways that we could actually fill this building apart from putting Jimmy Jones on there's lot's of things perhaps we could really put on which we would . . And then if we would find totally unacceptable we certainly wouldn't be prepared to do that . I didn't I didn't see him myself personally I don't like him but it's a matter of choice. Does anybody who hasn't asked a question or wishes to make a comment who who would like to? Yes I in relation to the above sorry Aha for the studio theatre to be dark t during the autumn and I I do regard the studio theatre as the frenzied heart of a theatre and I have enjoyed many of the performances very much and I just hope very much we can just get some more money from somewhere carry on I In the studio. One of the reasons why to save money is because the studio theatre has a limited capacity. And the sort of er money that won't have to pay a reputable alternative theatre it was such that one couldn't hope to break even on that capacity with the sort of seat prices that were that we're charging. So sadly that was one of those things that we had to cut. I know there are people here I know there are people here in the audience that use used to come to classical music concerts, horrendously expensive even with the Eastern orchestral board's subsidy. For example if you had the London Mozart players here as we frequently did and frequently played to full houses, then even with a hundred percent house there was a subsidy required of something like seven or eight pounds per seat, in order to meet the cost of presenting that particular concert and we've done it for years but sadly when we had to make cuts that was one of things the board decided they had to cut up they had to save money somehow. May I make a relevant point please? You'll ask a question. Yeah surely.. In the current programme the studio is in use for seventeen days out of a possible a hundred and forty seven. In the next ten months starting in September ninety one it's in use for sixty four days out of a possible three hundred. That is economic lunacy, not saving money it's lunacy it should be in operation making money bringing people in. Question Mr Chair. Yeah. My names Christopher with reference to that representing myself. Reference to that point is that management or mismanagement.. could you answer the question please Yeah the board in it's wisdom looking at the financial situation decided to take on a policy which actually prohibited the use of the studio theatre by professional companies and I think that's reduced the actual use of that facility. Can I ask erm what's happening to the Harlow Playhouse based Youth theatre cos obviously that has left a big gap in performances cos there's nothing in this programme. Yes one of the er sad things about Harlow youth theatre which many of you will remember er was sole run so successfully by Roger over a number of years. Sadly when Roger left in nineteen eighty-six it took the education of who provided Roger's er salary until point successor. During that time of course nobody there to run it the youth theatre sadly er ran down. Subsequent of that of course to meet the need we had Stage Directions come into being very vibrant thrusting young people theatre's company and really what's happen is that Stage Directions in part anyway has taken over the mantle of the old Harlow youth theatre. Harlow youth theatre now with our developing links with Harlow College and it's performing arts division er is now based in the College with tutor's from staff of the college who's job is one way er that that we could we could push it forward. I'd just like. Yes. Like to ask in relation to er previous comments made before . Why then are there not more amateur productions in the new season erm in in the studio erm not just from the companies that actually use the studio at the moment. Because I'm sure they don't cost as much to put on up there as do professional productions? Well certainly there there are in the coming season there's a many people sitting here tonight will know. Large number of er amateur production in fact there's an amateur show in the studio theatre one er once every three weeks. Yeah but what about . And cos the the studio is also used regularly for rehearsals for example or as you know if er local amateur company is putting on a show in the studio they're given the use of the studio a week before the week of the show. Yeah but . Cos that is an advantage of it. Okay but you've Your point sorry yes . Got local advantage to them but that never used to happen okay so why is it happening now? They I mean in a time when it's sort of been difficult to make money erm why is that one got not gone by the board and more amateur production put in there? I'm sure the people who's actually used the studio theatre would willingly give up that week before it never used to happen. What you're saying is you'd like to see more amateur productions? Yeah. Fine. erm. Sorry the lady . Yes . Mr Chairman erm I would like personally take up a suggestion that was in The Star about the possibility of a regional company being based at the playhouse in other words for a few months I would see it as people getting to know this company and rather like a repertory theatre of old then people would want to come and see these people in different roles and I think that would add to the you know repetitive. Right. Coming to see these shows. Right. I'd like the board to consider that. Okay that sounds erm talking about the sorry David the Playhouse being an entertainment centre, perhaps you should utilise the space a little bit more I'm sure if we go down stairs now into the foyer bar it's probably empty as it is erm many nights of the week. I'm sure if you go to the stage door club tonight erm. it's closed Right I mean these are area's in in this entertainments centre as it was called earlier on the entertainment being theatre and the gallery erm that may be utilised more i.e. jazz bands in the downstairs bar erm any other ideas I mean get people into the building then you'll sell tickets to keep the place running. I mean I I certainly accept that I mean I think there a lot of problems on the in the stage door club several nights of the years. And why the problems there is that any sort of loud music was actually buried under the auditorial I mean that was the problem that occurred and we had to sort of tone it down a bit. And I think in the past there there actually been music in in foyer bar erm yeah I mean I'd certainly look at that I mean . . Were open I mean there's been lots of things done like that I mean you maybe aware of this sort of jazz in the Gilbey bar on Saturday lunch time and that's been running some time then it'll cease to come back again you know if you'll actually counting on the people actually coming cos of the jazz there I think as your looking at it it was slightly up it wasn't a wasn't great influx because there was jazz available so yeah we'll certainly look introducing things into different areas of the theatre but from past experience it doesn't automatically follow that if you can do that then you know it's gonna happen. Just a reply to that though if for instance the foyer bar became a jazz club and it was it was a the jazz club all the time then it would get a name of it's own and it would get a reasonable quality. I was in Bristol recently and I went to a bar there which is packed every night people pay to go into a club to go in there . Sorry. Mr Chairman what's the erm chance of the Petticoat restaurant coming back under the playhouse umbrella. No. That I believe now it's run by the ladies that took over some while ago. Sure. The chances that I think are nil. In fact the pet petticoat restaurant is is run as a and because the theatre trust for whatever reason could make profit out of the petticoat restaurant and people that actually work there for the trust that actually took it over and the trust actually get's a percent of the takings percent of profit and er. So really it's. And er as and as and as that . Making . Were actually are making a profit we said at the beginning we do get a payment from petticoats so I don't see that arrangement actually changing but it suits the trust were not very good at running restaurant's.. As much as the Council are it's very difficult.. . Your be leaving yourself open . It's a special it's a special licence actually running restaurants. Yeah but it's. Ehm. It's sad not to have a restaurant that size in the playhouse so that people come to the theatre. Well. I think the stage door club is fine but it's so tiny and rather you know . That that was so was originally was available for the ticket you could actually have some supper before you went in or perhaps supper when you came out and that was the sort of thing that was available. Unfortunately over the years there was such a deficit for whatever reason lot's of things were tried it was then decided that it was two options one was closing lose so much money or actually put it out to franchise fortunately enough that people were at all the money and we didn't get an income from it. I accept the point your raising on this if it was open in the evenings that would be an added hance to the building unfortunately it isn't yes I think your absolutely right. But can't couldn't you perhaps develop then the the er stage door club could do more perhaps more meals and maybe erm have tickets that take in the cost of a meal so you actually. Sorry. I've done that I mean one of the sad things about the stage door club is due to the design of the building you've really got to be looking to go there. Yeah. It's not sort of passing trade. Oh. I mean it's got if you've got a disability for instance you wouldn't be able to get in there. So that's that's a problem. Oh. So if your if you're an elder it'll be very difficult to get up those very steep steps etcetera so it's got disadvantages now it's been run all sorts of ways it's was run you know it was run as a as a wine wine bar it was run as a restaurant it's been run as a bar it's been run as a stage door club but all this all these ways have been run by private individuals it's not always been the trust that's run it it's been run as franchise all these people have great problems actually making profit out of it and making it suitable. And it's also got limited facilities about what you can and what you can't do there so there are problems there. I mean it's empty at the moment if anybody's got any suggestions or thoughts about what we can do with it it's certainly er we I I would like to hear those. If perhaps not this evening then if ring me or contact me. . I'd certainly raise that at any any thoughts about how it could be used it is facility at the moment isn't used should be used. Here's a simply suggestion why don't you move the facilities from the stage door club down to the foyer bar so that a load of people can go in there you'd change the general denouement of the foyer bar. Yeah. Simple. Yeah. ambience I think there's nothing Chairman that a hundred and fifty thousand pounds wouldn't do. Well why not why not go outside for funding? So marketing exercise once again. Ehm just to get back about the point the studio being dark erm it's just as a suggestion has anybody thought of actually running say a week's worth of drama courses with er an artist in residence or something like that coming in to do work shops. I know that stage directions will come along and youth theatre'd come down I'm sure a lot of people with theatre company come and do them. Surely that'll bring people back into the theatre it would obviously pay the artist it would also bring money into the theatre if the theatre could actually charged for them to do them . Well going back to the boards point about take over theatre as we did on making a loss. Sorry the restaurant you mean. The restaurant yes petticoat restaurant. erm one did take up on public individuals if they made a profit have the board not considered perhaps teaming public individuals to run the theatre?. Sorry.. We are yes.. Yeah we are has that does that answer the question we actually are considering it You are . We are that. Going back again to Dave 's point about the foyer bar. Yes. I think I probably speak for er quite a few people in the audience at the moment but I myself who intimidated going in there cos of the clientele that seems to be attracted to it. I don't know if I know I understand obviously monies not around at the moment but if they made some way of creating some kind of jazz pub closing it down making it part of the theatre again it's it's just a like a pub and I I don't ever feel comfortable going in there and buying drinks on rehearse .. Mr Chairman too. Hang on hang on. . Hang on It's just that we didn't know that I didn't hear what she said. Before you give the answer. Sorry. I'd like to know what the question was. She felt sorry. I just make . She felt intimidated by going into the foyer bar. Yeah it doesn't actually seem . Can I just say two things on that first of all I think you're right. Secondly I think the sad thing is is that at one time the idea of the foyer bar was the fact that er mother's and children go in for a coffee facility or tea facility now I'm I'm one of one of the problems about criticism is is perhaps they don't know all the facts and one of the facts which I think astounded me was the actual local police stopped that and said that that wasn't permissible for if you were selling alcohol then it didn't it wasn't right that that children under age and young children were allowed in the same area and that was that was changed then we got a new a new police superintendent and he said it was permissible and then we got another super he went they don't stay very long in Harlow and we got somebody else came along and he said no that isn't permissible so we got very schizophrenic about what you could do with the foyer bar one minute you could have and the idea of about telling people and there young mothers going shopping come here for coffee, cakes for the children etc stop that we've now got a new superintendent in Harlow and I think with applied going back to him and saying well please advice us can we or can't we? The last superintendent said we can't and I think the point you've raised is very valid since they actually stopped that facility said that they're not allowed in there it has I think gone into a situation where it isn't a very quite place erm and there problems about what goes on there etc and I think need to look at it. But I personally feel that it needs complete refurbishment and that costs money I think that the points been raised earlier about having some sort of jazz pub here or some pub here is very bad and I think we could investigate that. Can you think if we have something meal facilities which has also been raised if then maybe the stage door club area could be used for something like light rehearsal space which is always in demand. Yeah. Or another kind of committee room Right. Actually utilise our space not necessarily for the public which obviously is difficult to get to the disabled people etc but using it for something like that. When we say when we say that that we stage door club is closed it closed in the place it's not open every evening but we do actually let it out we let it out to companies and whatever conference or companies who want a facility or meeting place something we do actually market that and we do actually ask people if they want to use it and in fact it has been taken up there. But I've I think it is a valid facility but it depends what the facilities for. Yeah. I think the problem about having it as a a a perhaps a wine bar or something is that is that it's very difficult to get to and I think it don't does create problems for people but I think there is a solution there we just need to actually target the right use for it. here. Alan speaking for myself. It's apparent from the meeting here that a number of people feel they have a grievance about the theatre and the way it's run, would it not be an idea for the board on a regular basis to invite users of the theatre to attend. To approach them tell them how they feel about things rather than having to ring you up and make an appointment if only once a year or once every six months use a group . Right you have to come I think the basis of this evening was to get people to come along and put there points of view and to say what's happening and what isn't happening and I think we can take that take that away and considerate it yes I mean I I think the board or the management committee will be happy to meet with people to discuss the use of the theatre er what it's used for what might what the unhappiness is if there is unhappiness and the positive and the positive as well as the negative points yes. It would prevent there being a build up Certainly we'll do that. Yeah. chap . erm when I first started working in Harlow eighteen years ago one evening I came up just to see what the playhouse was all about. I was shown round the building although there was a performance on by a very pleasant elderly doorman who's not here any more I've been coming ever since. er is not a possibility of having more open days so that general public can come in to see what's happening and not only advertise in Harlow but advertise I live in Bishop's Stortford now in the surrounding districts erm time gets although you said you get fifty per cent of people coming from outside of Harlow it doesn't matter where the people come from as long as they come so more open days free erm to get people to come in and er particularly er outside people also I would suggest that the er chairman's of the local district council's who are not contributing be invited to the open day to see what er the playhouse is doing for the people who live in there er council area's to see whether we can get some more supports er as a Stortford resident I'd be quite happy to add a bit on my community charge to go to the playhouse.. Perhaps er school children could be brought in when the theatre start's during the day who actually see how the theatre runs see what theatre's all about and they might be interested in the theatre.. We have er demand for tours of the theatre schools in the area which were not able to meet. It seems an ideal . And it is you know it seems to take up quite a bit of time for members of staff and we do as many as we can but sometimes we have to say sorry we we can't do any more this week. Peter from . Chair can I make a suggestion quite clearly a large number of people have made some very good and valid recommendations or suggestions to you and the board this evening and you've said on many occasions this evening the board will obviously go away discuss those and take a view on the particular ideas. Now might it not be also a very good idea then to report back to another public meeting with the results of those suggestions possibly done in a written form which could be freely available before the meeting so that people can discuss these in a structured way because I think this evening one of the problems about this evening is that points are being missed because issues are being jumped from one to another in no structured way and I think that it might be worth while for another meeting where it is structured but certainly to produce the results of your discussions internally to many of the ideas that you've heard this evening. Here here. Could I just make one suggestion that it's made within the next six months as well. Here here. With time permitting yes. You've got six months for God's sake Mr Chairman could I ask a question because one of the things that I've found missing this evening is specific things that people would like to see in this playhouse or perhaps specific things that we used to do and that find are missing and the last I haven't heard the word gallery mentioned from there much at all what do we think about the gallery? Can I think. .. Well I'd like to speak about the gallery I like to speak for myself and er just the visual arts and er the gallery when it first started was a gallery very much appreciated by appreciated by the Eastern Region er they saw it as potential a very significant gallery in the whole region which would have been a marvellous thing for Harlow to have. That has now changed Eastern arts no longer support the gallery now one obvious reason for that is the gallery started so well because of the enthusiasm from a number of professional people who came along and gave their advice and much of their time and such a body of people has not been called upon for a number of years now and once again a request to discuss this with Mr was refused. We have the gallery still running reasonably well but it is one man ten hours a week his experience is badly limited this marvellous free resource is no longer being called for.. . You asked what people would like to see in the playhouse. Is that being recorded? Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. That's a very valid point. What I would like to see in the playhouse is an open system of government very much like our council professes to follow. I would like to see agenda's for these meetings public available I'd like to see some commercial experience by a vote of general manager and their trustee's. I'd like to see not cutting cutting costs raise in income and finally I'd can only see these things coming coming about with the resignation of the five people on the stage tonight.. Janet erm Mr want's some practical suggestions I have one for goodness sake any show that's suitable for children charge those children half price that way you'll get . . In ten years time if you just give them a derisory thirty pence off people leave their children at home make it easier for them to bring them with them.. Yes. Steve represent the association of Natural Body Builders. Sir could you tell me why why the playhouse operates a policy whereby promoters cannot hire the venue outright. Other theatres operate this system quite successfully with little or no financial risk at all. Sorry can you just explain that when you say . I wrote to Mr in February of last year. Yeah. Asking to erm promote a natural body building competition here erm the letter received back was we didn't feel it was suitable. On trying to contact Mr by phone I have on many occasions I was put off to say he wasn't available I have also come to the foyer at the bottom asked to see Mr after twenty minutes wait and nobody turned up I decided to retire. I again last month wrote to Mr to try a promote a drug free competition for a Sunday giving various dates of nineteen ninety two and have yet to hear. I would like to know why this policy is that er that you didn't consider this a venue of body building to be suitable if it's not erm it's gonna put bums on seats and generate income to towards the trust why not?. Sorry. Someone . Can you answer the question please I I I was certainly with that question has been recorded and I I can't answer immediately but obviously you you what you've said we'll take that up with the management committee and come back to you straight away. . Okay. Can I also point out that erm the association of natural body builders stipulate that a contest must be held in a seated theatre such as this. Right. Supplying cafeteria and bar facilities and there's no one else in Harlow to seat four hundred plus people and that's like regulars and if the Harlow playhouse turn around and say no we're not interested where else are we to go? In in this instance the Harlow Sports Centre been very kind in doing everything they can to host this venue and hopefully in the near future the Harlow playhouse will open their arms also thank you.. Yes yes. Sarah . I have been using the playhouse for about ten years now and going back to the point that someone made earlier about sex well about erm racism sexism is doesn't that count as censorship. The same as the way that this gentleman has found it's somebody else making a decision to what people can see and I don't consider some a show like Pro's and Con's which had female nudity and two hundred and fifty people walk out in one night to mean something which I think is enhancing to the playhouse.. I'd like to take up a couple of points if I may about getting some erm we were talking before mentioned children coming in on a regular basis er it's called living. What about getting those children as they go out a voucher that their parents can bring them along to see a show at a reduced rate. We've got there interest they come they've seen they've seen how the theatre works let them come to see the theatre working. Then there's a lady over here who comes or used to come on a regular basis a couple of times a month she comes now a couple of times a year. Encourage her to come back more often you'll not only sell the seats you'll sell the drinks you'll sell the ice cream you make good profit from those and every theatre and every promotional help is done. Drinks and ice creams are profits right. Then we talk about the lady from Sawbridgeworth who said she get's no incentive I get my incentive use by using my leisure card that lady gets no incentive to come back. What about some sort of sticker that she gets that can use the use of her period of time another idea to around. Right is there any body that hasn't asked a question who would like to ask one? Yeah. Sorry. You asked about the gallery. Yes. Eh personally I think it's . Your sorry your name?. Peter from Harlow Society of Art. I personally think the gallery's grossly under used you have a large number of exhibitions that seem to extend over six to eight weeks. Personally I think it should be restricted to about four weeks and get more exhibitions in there for wider variety and also there's a number of er travelling exhibitions around the country that come down North er from up North down to the South to show around here that you can book these any time you want er I talked to somebody organised an exhibition in London and they are quite willing to come to Harlow you book us and we have nothing like this at all. And all that's repetition going around. . All we seemed to get is abstract art which people in Harlow means so few appreciate which I quite understand... Ehm Ron . There's been some concern about the complete show of publicity particularly for studio theatre show's the amateur ones. Sometimes there's a good write up beforehand sometimes there's nothing. Is any body pacifically in charge of publicity or is it a committee meeting eh committee do more can you tell me er who's in charge? We produce a press release every week in advance send it out in forty three publications. It's funny er even even though there's about five free paper's er sometimes there isn't a write up at all I'm not talking about your your panel. No. A lit little write up through through pub this would surely bring more people in if they knew what was . We are constantly talking to the press try and persuade them to give us more coverage. Some newspapers do The Star... . I I I dislike the concern about the communication level between the general manager and the board. erm I'd we we have a number of suggestions er a gentleman over there about the er body building was that reported back to you for a start and did you discuss this? erm you know I I really thought it sort of modern management techniques if there applied here like team working net working it's it this way you could actually begin to perform as the committee at the moment your the shadowy figures in the background. The only person that I know about at the playhouse is Gordon. erm so I'm aware I'm I just like to know if Gordon is actually aware of the terms like team working net working erm . Has he been on any recent training courses to discuss this?. You missed a couple off that proactive I think is the buzz word it's called seem less production so . If you want . I'm not into buzz words I would suggest you to ask that question in fact you'll ask Gordon afterwards. Okay. Is there anybody hasn't asked a question who would like to ask one. My name is Buzz stage art technical art.. I've come in this theatre in nineteen seventy five. I came here as a company stage manager from Oxford playhouse company. Listening to all this tonight reading that article in The Star which I personally disliked intensely Here here I want to say the thing that's happening at the moment in my difficult life that I'd hold onto like a drowning man with a log. One thing that works at this time forget today and yesterday and all the week it's the number of children that come into this playhouse now we have us we have a thing called work experience where they come from the school's and the poor little bugger's have gotta work with me.. If they go away and say I'll be back Buzz I'll be back. And they come back and see me what they taken from here and seen in other papers is a privilege for me if I've set them off in my biased Welsh way.. But they do come back loads of them and we send them off everywhere into dance into acting into trade shows we've got a terrific act on here all you people who strive and slave towards making this playhouse work we're a bloody miracle. But don't lets knock it to death don't lets kick it this place saved my life I almost killed myself trying to fulfil those that we've been talking about. I've done over fifty of them I'm still standing up just about. Fifty that's a hell of a lot of show's and a lot of Mrs and a lot of Mr and a lot of Janet I love you you know. .a bit of all of you lot so come on people you're not doing yourself justice. Can I sort out . Chairman I haven't got a question my name is Harold er I come from Bishop's Stortford, er I work in Harlow and I don't think that you should necessarily forget that some of the people are not residents in Harlow do in fact work in Harlow . Your absolutely right . Yes. Erm I I've done a lot of listening this evening er and I'm sure you have too from from the way in which the the rest of the board have been responding er with there eyes and ears even if they haven't always been open. erm I'd like to be a little bit positive about certain things this evening too because I too believe that you've got a very good programme. I think you maintain an excellent record in that but it does still come back to getting people into the theatre. And one of the things that I'm not sure we have addressed adequately now and perhaps won't this evening is how to get people into the theatre and I really thing that it would be worthwhile trying to find out stops people coming in. erm marketing is certainly one one and possibly does needs some more er attention but there were one or two things that that struck me as as er you went by and you asked to comment and and maybe give a small one that there will pick up on. erm we actually find it quite hard to book our seats. If you pick up the phone and ring to get seats here you will very often find that you can't get through. There must be a way round that. Because I can't believe if you come in the off peak periods there really aren't that many people here erm I can't believe that the phone is so busy that that we're actually being stopped in making from reservations. I've listened to a lot of interest to to the people who've been commenting about the future and the schools and the young children coming in. erm just just as something totally off the top of my head erm I very much regretted the demise of the proper programme erm and in fact I I actually object to the paying twenty pence for something that er really doesn't represent value for money. But just as a thought for you since the school's are involved and since children are involved in a number of these things perhaps it has been tried I don't know erm you might actually be able to get a more regular input not only from the children and their but also from their par ents by perhaps involving or asking the schools to become involved in the production of the programme. erm that would maintain a regular interest from the schools and also from the children involved. Right your absolutely right about the programme. Yeah and I'll certainly and I we think are actually in process in looking at that lot as a rule that's a very valid point . People are getting fidgety people are leaving can I just. Can we just. Can I sorry could I could I take obviously take some question people wish to ask a question because I think it's important that before people start drifting away we actually bring the meeting to some conclusion and determine where we're gonna go with the meeting once it's actually passed. So can I take people who actually haven't spoken already I think that's the fairest way. There's a lady here. Ehm er chair er Sheila from Harlow secretary of the film society which has operated here since the playhouse opened moved from the town hall er we do get people past the door we have been doing in years erm and I personally I'm also here as an individual I've been an arts lover for forty five years of my life in Harlow. erm and I'd just got one comment that I like to make and er then the question. The comment is about publicity in Harlow itself and and just around it erm the environment. When I came to Harlow I was stuck by what a lovely neat town it was then erm but there were er absolutely no posters anywhere in Harlow. It's a tiny little things you know er in glass cases now there are a few at bus stops but a lot of people don't use bus stops any more you know they drive erm I know that posters great hoardings that we some of us probably grew up with when everybody knew what was on and the great big posters everywhere. Posters also teach young people how to develop a sense of erm they also make life much more fun more interesting and erm this is great contrast with Harlow and an urban area like Greater London area where as the report by erm in er the report the report on observation in London you know didn't mention the fact that publicity is of course is much more much greater than the London area erm and erm er one thing I see is missing could er er the reason is we found er the film society we can't advertise our events very well because of the restrictive bylaws on advertising poster advertising in Harlow I wonder if something could be done about this? Cos that's one reason a lot of Harlow people don't know what's on don't erm you know they they don't really have contact with erm they don't always use Harvey. So. Er erm I'm sorry it is the question now that I'm going to come to was going back to organisation how often does the board meet? and who does it regard as ? Sorry . John Company Secretary. erm in the first place there are no bylaws restricting the display of posters in Harlow erm there are however town planning er restraints on and indeed there are a recognised number of sites which can be used for that purpose. erm on the question of the board all is answerable to the general meeting of the er company it's held in the Autumn of each year. Right is there anybody that hasn't asked a question . It's not so much a question it's a comment. Yes erm listening to the punters I mean I know loads of people come up here and there's one thing which all of them tend to say and that this place is threatening. They come in and they're worried about the place they they feel it unfriendly. What the auditorium or the whole ? Ev the whole building. The whole building. It's tacky it's erm well as soon as they come in the door they wanna walk out and that that's an overall opinion that's not just me or a couple of mates that's everybody. And what I'd like to know is is the board. That's your opinion not mine not everybody. I didn't say it was mine I said it was the people I've spoken to. Eh er don't sorry. Right so can I have my opinion or or can I speak with these other people's opinion Yes please do or shall we listen to you? please do Right I am saying it's people that I've spoken to. Right okay. Is that clear it's people that've spoken to. Yeah. Thank you. Right has the board consider giving this place I mean I I understand the the trouble with money etc but looking at making this place more inviting, at all? Yeah I mean have they just sort of said okay right as it is that'll do or are they seriously looking at making this place an inviting place to come to? Yeah I mean two things. First of all the as you I think you touched on the board's got to work on a budget. That's right yeah. Money is tight so we need to be quite clear on I mean for instance I mean the seats have been recovered you know people smoking in the seats when they shouldn't be smoking and putting they're putting their cigarette's out on the floor I don't know Oh yeah but were not talking about. No I'm not so I mean things like that there's wear and tear I mean the seats have to be recovered the carpet's have to be replaced the place has to be redecorated yes we do that. I mean the foyer when you come in to the building when the place was refurbished that was that we got the consultant's to look at the into the foyer and what you see as you come into the building is the recommendations of those consultants were talking about having a red foyer making it inviting and friendly that was their recommendation which was adopted. The whole carpeting of the building which has been done was that the consultants come in look at colour schemes and say this is what to do. So yes the answer to the question is yes there is a budget there is a budget and we need to do things now one of the problems could be the budget isn't sufficient to cover all that needs doing so I think you'll find that the building been built at a certain time there a comes a time you've got plan a maintenance programme which we have things need to be done. I think we need I accept I think we need to look at certain areas we need to look at the entrance I mean if we were doing the entrance again we would have electric doors on what like they've got on the Harvey Centre so you don't have to fight your way in I'm thinking of doors like this we'll do that. The colour the what the lay out of the foyer we would look at again to make it more inviting more friendly we'll do that. And I think when we talk in terms in getting around to spending the money we have got then we need to look quite clearly about how you make a place more inviting and it's also about when people come into the building how they're met what the receptionists like, when they ring up can they get through and I mean I'm I'm surprised that's said about the tickets that I think that our reception ticket areas an excellent area the people working there are first class are very friendly very helpful so it's trying to get that sort of concept through the building I thin k we work on that I think the building's kept very clean people who clean the building are very good but I hear what you're saying and I thinks it's been said earlier by the lady here by the foyer downstairs she feels threatened when she goes into that bar because I think the whole decor and the way it is is a threatening place I think we need to look at those so that was an old and . But this this is spilling out onto the steps of the place. You've got you've got rubbish everywhere for a start . Well that is Is that is that the Council or is that the playhouse. That's people. Well first of all that's people. If you actually you actually look at the front of the building there's a great deal of money been spent there's been new flower er boxes put out there. Yes. It's all been replanted and apart the fact that people pull them out is . So why is there not somebody responsible security say why why don't they go out there and stop it? I mean I've I've chased more people off Here here I've chased more people off than the security has. . Now have they got a directive to look after the front now or not? I really I really do wish it was that simple and I wish that when I pick up The Star on a Thursday or one of the other local papers that I didn't read in it the twenty cars that's broken into and and all the other problems and I say to myself now why did that happen. All I do know is that we're very conscious a great deal of money's been spent by the Council and by the Trust to try and make the place outside more inviting those tubs been put there er they been planted etc there's a lot of litter there we've put litter bins there there's taxi rank there there's lot's of things been put there I think the problem is it isn't the people who do that I mean it's the people who actually do the litter and it's quite clear that we do go out we do tidy up but it happens and it's a case of balance of what we can do and what you can't do but we do work at it I can assure you. Surely Tom one of the main criteria should be placing seats in the studio theatre for something with a bit more comfortable that way perhaps the punter's will come back more often it's easier to make a punter come back than it is getting in there in the first place.. Are you anybody Dor I've got erm Doris here is is there anybody hasn't asked I wanna sort of brig to some conclusion because people are getting restless Doris. Tom mine is a comment and a request. erm as many people here know and like them I have worked in a voluntary capacity and one way or another in this theatre for many years and we can't do without it we don't want to see it close or any of those drastic things. Were all very concerned to keep it open and keep it flourishing. Here here And with this in mind and I'm I'm you will notice that I haven't spoken at all and that is quite deliberate on my part but then I can also say the same for many people sitting round here who know quite well that they haven't spoken either. Is it possible for some of us and perhaps representative's of organisations or a group of us and I know I can talk to the board but I'm not necessarily speaking for anybody else if I natter to you other than myself. And I think it's very important that people can come and talk to you and some representative's of the board because there is unrest Tom and I'm not prepared to stick my neck out and say in what quarter this lies but it can be got over it can be ironed out because running a theatre is to do with team spirit and that team spirit get's conveyed to the public. A happy theatre a happy ship if you like a corny phrase to use is very very apparent and I'm sure my colleagues and friends around here would appreciate because they do believe they can't get at the management committee and they would like to so please Tom will that be possible at some time in the near future? I assume so yes but erm also well yeah well yeah fine Thank you Or determining standards and then setting targets for all of your staff. Can you tell me how good a job you do? No You can't, why not? Because we're not set any targets and we've never given any feedback from higher We know who bad we do. You know how badly you do? You are You're told at annual appraisal week. Well there's not set If you get an appraisal, unless you get performance review. I got quite, I was given to it last year, I reckon How did they do that Kenny, I mean what good, who gave that to you? The boss The branch manager. Yes, he gave us five targets to achieve by the one that we had this year. Right I achieved all of that, and more. So erm, was that when you joined the branch first of all? Alright, so how did you do that, when you were getting interviewed some place in our area. Yes, he was totally good, he sat us down. Cos everybody else got the erm, forms, erm, the appraisal, and the one they had was supposed to be target setting for each department manager. Well I wasn't there long enough to us an appraisal to he give us, he still give us the targets Okay And I was in last week both Saturday's before I came here, and we went through we'd achieved all targets Alright, so that's kind of an ideal scenario, an interview situation's been very clearly set. Perfect, what about the rest of you. Heidi, do you know how you do? Only because I've just had my appraisal. Right, so Only because of that, and what they said in that totally shocked me, because erm, I, he hadn't given me any feedback about how I was doing. On an ongoing basis? Yes Do you think it's right then, that an appraisal should come up with those surprises for you? No Why? Because you should be told constantly, throughout the year, and there should be some kind of re-assessment. Right, does anybody get that? No Anybody at all? The targets I was given last year in my appraisal weren't covered at all this year in my appraisal by the manager, yes They were only brought up by me. yes, was it, was it a different manager? It was, but he had the sheet in front of him, which had my targets set on it. Possibly a lack of planning there. Anybody else, I mean we've had the erm, the formal target setting, and we've mentioned appraisals? I mean whether it's good feedback or bad feedback do you get an other feedback on a less formal basis? Mm We get bad feedback. yes, what do you get? Criticisms, you know. Criticism, what form does that take? What are you going to do about it, on the shop floor, it's, it's not done properly? We get both, Mm The formal and the informal. I've never, in all the time that I've been with the company, I've never had any positive feedback at all. Although I've had form, nobody's ever told me anything that I should be doing, people come round and say, you haven't done that. Erm, why's that like that, they don't tell you how to correct it, so often, you know, you don't, you don't know how to avoid making the same mistake next time. Right. And you know, you know, what's the point of coming round and giving you a bollocking if nobody's going to tell you why? I haven't, I haven't had any positive feedback at all, in all the time that I've been there. Erm, I'm in no man's land at the moment, because I'm like between, between sort of like branches, appraisals are coming up, how can I have an appraisal, I won't have anything. Ray. Well I think I've been rather more fortunate, the two branch managers I've had er, before , I'd not had long enough, er, both have given albeit not regular, but feedback both positive and negative, er, when you're doing a good job and when you're doing a bad job, and er, in all honesty, it's probably the appraisal itself, that's actually been unnecessary because of their feedback they're given me during the year, because the appraisal is just a formal repetition of what's already been said. Yes, I think that's right, I think a lot of people question the validity of appraisals, because you shouldn't be learning anything new, you know, should there be an appraisal. You shouldn't be, but that's not my experience. No Ah, erm, but, do you think that, sorry, do you think the appraisal itself, because it's an annual event, er, some branch managers will get to you with what turns out to be the performance review, and therefore, not doing it during the year, because of the appraisal? It's a possibility that some may think that, but I can't believe that with the management skills training that they've received up until, up to that level, that they can still honestly think that's correct. But undoubtedly, No, I think , in other cases, they just can't be bothered to give you feedback. Sorry, that's a very negative thing to say, but, But they don't see you as much as his secretary does either do they? They don't have as much to do with you, I mean my branch manager doesn't know what division he's in. But your fresh deputy should be the one who's giving you the feedback, I mean, all the time I was on provisions in my last department, and nobody ever told me how I was doing. Besides, you know, it's too trivial, there's too many important things, like why haven't you got the special offer on display, to even bother to tell why you're not, why you're not performing or if anything isn't going right. And it's so demotivating, like you know, how are supposed to get the best out of your staff if nobody can be bothered to tell you how you're doing? That's right, yes. That's only like, by they sounds of things, down this way. Up our way, they all give you feedback, like you know, several branches in like, the North, every branch I've been into, there's always been positive feedback, and negative and positive. There's only one branch that I've been and that was Bury. Was that all in one district, Kenny, or was it spread across districts ? Erm, well the North East and all, I found very good, the two York stores, Harrogate and , erm, that's where I've been involved really, and they've all been very good for that. Yes, then maybe that's the influence of around the place, the other names. What about? You know, my other two other branches were the same, I'm doing a free appointment at, I'm at at the moment, we're supposed to get a two-weekly, when you do a free appointment, they're supposed to sit down with every two weeks and tell you how you're doing. Erm, it took, it took a week and a half before the fresh foods secretary even spoke to me when I went in this place to do the free appointment, nobody's told me how I'm doing, so then what's the point of doing these things if nobody's going give you anything, it's just a waste of time? You need to push for yourself sometimes though. I think a lot of people in a free appointment situation have been stuck like that but you've just got to, squeak and shout out Mm, push for your training, push to be spoken to Oh, yes, but they're going on that's to sake of free, at the moment so the last thing that they're interested in doing is talking to me about if I know what I'm doing. Quite honestly. Does Steve the district manager know about this, because he's dead against all this, he won't have No, he knows, no, no, sorry, he knows, he knows all about it. He's had me there specifically, so I'm just wasting my time. I think it, it depends on the branch. The last branch I was in was very small, and I got a lot of feedback from them. My first department, and I went in and I got a lot of feedback from my deputy, and the branch manager to a certain extent, and I did get it from the district manager as well. They do when they came in, and they want the stall made like this, and they would say, you know, well you know, I'm paying you to finish that off, you know, how, your next, your next priority to do is this, and they eventually told me what they wanted, and you know, you get on with it. They started to especially trainee managers,spending periods of time in the smaller branch, and they've got to get on with that concern, but I think there are benefits since they've been doing that. Turning that issue on its head. We're talking about what feedback or the lack of feedback you yourself have received, how do you give feedback to your staff? How do you tell them how well or how badly they're doing? Just tell them. If he's got a job there, and he's done it well or he's done it badly, tell him he's done it badly, tell them where they've gone wrong and tell them what they should do to put it right. Give us, give an example of that then. Because I have, I have one fellah in particular, erm, I'm the meat manager, and he puts the ham away, the mess, every time he does it, so I, I tell him, and I show him how to do it, but still, he consistently does it wrong you know. Right, so when you're actually telling him, what do you say? I show him, I show him the way I do it, and go through it with him. Mhm And show him this is the way you should do it. But It's still wrong. What about the rest of you, how do you give feedback? A daily meeting really. A daily meeting? How do they work? Yes. The fresh foods manager will walk us round, with the store manager in the morning, and we have er, whatever they say, we have a meeting, and I have feedbacks to start, and I say what I'm happy with and what I'm not. I'm in the bakery so if stuff's rubbish I tell them, if it's good I tell them, and then they say well fine, if, if they have any problems we take it, right or wrong. And how does that go down? Yes fine, because they can raise any issues. On a regular basis. What do the rest of you think about that? That perhaps it's easier to do in a smaller department, I mean I've got checkouts, and the majority of my staff are part-time, and I've only got three full-timers, so it's quite often the case that at nine thirty, one thirty, five thirty, eight thirty, it's a case of coming in and then relieving somebody else straight away, you don't necessarily have the time to spend with them. How do you do it, how to do you cope with that? It's very difficult, because you're, again, I mean, we're saying that we don't get positive feedback, how many of us truthfully give positive feedback through to our staff? Go on, raise, let's have a hands, then How many give positive feedback to your staff, do you think? Half the time I would say. yes You said that in our newsletter, because our checkout manager said that she's found life extremely difficult with all the changes of shifts, and that in her department they have lots of problems, so she's got like a pro forma checkout news, and she asks them for things that go into this, that they, you know, that they want bringing up, and specific things that they're having difficulty with. I mean she'll put it in the proper procedure, and then she'll put like operator performance and things, that have erm. We have erm, we can't put operator performance any more on our district, because we've just erm, stopped that, it doesn't, you know, they don't apply it to performance any more as far as that goes, but erm, I have got three representation, three representatives, which the checkout people nominated themselves and I have a monthly meeting with those to come up with any problems but it's still, you know, that's tackling one issue. You've still got the problem of addressing praise, because quite often you've only, if you've given somebody a specific task then it's easy to praise or not to praise in that situation, but if they've just come in, done their job and gone home, you know, just sat on a checkout for four hours, right it's my time to leave, then, if they've done nothing out of the blue, extraordinary, so they don't do anything wrong, or, you know. They don't do anything better or worse You know, they just do their job don't they. Yes, it's easy to comment on their performance if you've stood by and watched their shift. What about those of you that say, you don't give positive feedback, Alex, I notice you were one? Well I sometimes do when, er, if, I have a tendency when it's, when it's right to praise instantly when it's right and when it's wrong. You know, when you go straight there, and sometimes you get it, it's not constructive, you know, but if I'm getting jumped on, I tend to perhaps jump, jump down on the people below me. Yes. Yes, so sometimes it has a tendency to seem like you're blowing hot and cold. It's like a kick the cat syndrome, isn't it. yes, it's sort of like oh, what's his facial expression, oh right, everybody's head down, here he comes. yes Oh, he's got a smile on his face, oh we're alright. Sometimes it's difficult. It all depends on the reaction that you get from your, your boss. Your superiors, particularly, yes. They very , erm, can for volunteers, please. It's very straightforward. and Rachel, you can say what you want, you like,, hold that. Ian,, okay could you all please just draw a house Rachel, Ian, Gary, Pete, just those four of you, if you just draw a house, please, Just a quick house, it doesn't have to be a masterpiece. Right, all finished? Yes, there we go. Yes, very nice. All finished? Finished, right? . That is the crappiest house that I've ever seen. It's just a waste of time. Now that, that's brilliant. I just think that's brilliant. That's great, thank you very much. , let's have a look at this one. I think that's very good, I particularly like the way you've got the path coming down from it. I think maybe you could do with a little more symmetry, particularly on the roof area, but generally I think that's very good. Thank you. Right, what happened there, the four of you? How did you feel? How did you feel, Gary? Well I'm quite honestly. That's all there is, I can't quite work it out. No seriously, you get so much shit at work, if you took it all to heart, you know, you'd just crack up,and the way I deal with stress like, you know, someone's made my day. Water off a duck's back. Do you think that's the case for all your staff? Erm, not really, well so , sometimes I'd say Sometimes, yes they'd say. It's water off th , their back as well? Sometimes, yes, and especially when they're juniors Yes, Tuesdays, the accounts manager, I think if everybody wants to get that reaction, if that's the regular reaction that they get, you know, people dumping on them all the time, it is water off a duck's back, you take it more, you take it more on board if it is an occasional thing,. Yes, so they start to become immune to it. yes, and this is the problem, yes, it's inconsistent things, it's like regular, it's just expected. It's like beating a dog, isn't it? You do it all the time, they're conditioned to it in the end. Do you think it's good that people can get to that stage? No, because there's, er, it's only one step away from not carrying out the job at all, when. No, because you expect somebody to take pride in what they do, means the job doesn't get as well then. I just think that even with what you're saying, because , with his, with what, with Gary's own , because they say especially with the students, it's water off a duck's back, but I don't think. I think the students take a real pride in what they're doing, in our place. Certain ones do And they're not just doing it for the money because, you know, if you just sort of give them a mundane task like trolleys for example, they're banging on the door, you know, when can I get off this, when am I going to get some responsibility. I don't want it, I'm not here just to go and collect trolleys for four hours, and the get really pissed off with it. So I'm disagreeing with what you're saying, because you, you're tarring them all with the same brush. I'd like to, I know, that's what I'm saying, you can't generalise like that what was saying completely Yes, I agree Well maybe there's a difference between, I mean are you all in like London then? No Ours don't seem to care about what they do. Your's do? Yes, but that's probably, I mean, I'm trying to instil that it's got to be done right into them. I've had two students and the rest of the stores have had two , alright, that's why I'm, I'm desperate for somebody, and I'll take them. I'll tell you what, they're the best damn students I've ever had. You can't generalise students, because some of our students are excellent. I'm quite happy with mine, they do the business. There's one student in our branch, and she runs the provisions department,in Bolton, yes Who, who said anything management-wise, that had to be done? and she's just a student yes and you do get them, but I understand a lot of them, a majority of them now, er, the university students, or what have you, they don't want to do the overtime, because they've got to study right, they come in, they do the job, and they just don't want any stress. But it's the working with them, you know, you've got to try and work with them, he's got to go round may be every five minutes and make sure they've put it out, otherwise he's going to stand there doing his university work. You know it's, I think in different areas, it's true, it's I think it's completely over the top I did other work, at least We've got a lot of different opinions there, I mean from my personal experience when I was a customer sales manager my, my students or particularly some of them, well I would say the brightest kind of people in the branch, and they had the most attention, and it's very easy I think to write them off. Yes, yes, they have er, a temporary student, and they asked him to leave us, he's, there's no work for him like. But I've got this other kid, he's twenty eight, and he's absolutely a waste of time, he doesn't know anything about it. I can't do anything with him, yet this other kid's absolutely brilliant, and I think it's a shame that I've had to leave, like let the temps. go, so these plonkers can stop here. There is a lot, there is a lot of tension there isn't there? It'll have to be sorted out. Yes, there is a lot of tension somewhere. I think that's what it's like on customer services, when I was a trainee I think it's like that with other students as well Say that again They're always be other students that will always go along, you know, be on the clock Mm, how many of you have been students then? A lot of them have got, have got some chance, it's obvious, you know you've got to tackle it right. I was No I wasn't I was working at Sainsbury's. How, how many have you been students? Not for Sainsbury's. Not for Sainsbury's, but Well, were you a plonker when you started? No,, it's just a but he was, you know, I was fairly slow, and then I went on, I followed erm, I ended up slightly , as well, erm, then I went to college up to the age of eighteen, erm, and as soon as I finished college he made me a department manager. You know, I'd done the section manager part-time, I've done the Saturday's and Sunday's, I've done the share, the fair share of shoving the shit when I had to erm, but, I think you can get a lot of average streams, there is a lot of potential there for one to become a very valued member of staff. Erm, The question is, are you tapping that potential? Yes, if you can, if you can recognise it, or if you've got , or if, several members of erm, several students we had when I was on grocery at Camden, we had to, I think it was twenty eight on Saturday afternoon, they might have been on checkouts, well I mean, they're still scheduled to my , I'm saying out of that about four of them er, are still working at Camden full-time. They were taken on full-time, they left college, and they want to do whatever they want to do. Erm, one's er controller, another one's er, a senior warehouseman, another one works out the back door, er, the other one's like Gary, he does bread all the time. He's solely responsible for the bread. yes And it's the section manager, like he does more than the section manager does, because the section manager's a waste of space. I'll admit he does, erm, you do get exceptions, but I think it can come down to your er, the culture, the student culture. I mean if you live in a posh area, er, the student's going to take a pride in what he's done, because you know you can give him it every day of his life, and he, he wants to do something, but he wants to do it himself. Or you get I don't agree, , I don't agree with that, it's a load of bullshit I think the bullshit's yours, it's your , you know, you take somebody on as well. You know, you can take it so many different ways, I mean, I've worked with and I am familiar with them, there is very little it's a real run-down area isn't it, in some respects, and you get twenty shoplifters a day, but my students are brilliant, they take a lot of pride in what they do. I mean it doesn't affect the area, I mean ours did do at branch, our students were erm, I mean they started work in the poultries, and they all had, you know, big cardies, it came from handling. And because they had the money, they weren't interested, a lot of them weren't interested, yes. So that erm, it does you good to have a job, it looks good on a C V,and they would do as little as possible, and if you, if you disciplined them, then one of them says oh well, I'll leave, me dad will give me the money anyway. The dad will just give them the cheque, you know, they've got thirty five pounds, pocket money just for, you know his dad's going to give him the other. Yes, just listen, I can't imagine why you misunderstood what I was trying to say. What I'm trying to say is, everyone joins for their own different reasons, you can't generalise that. That was just one example, like one scenario that might happen. You know, I'm not saying that's the be all and end all, but it's just one different scenario that may happen, like that. I think, students are, Yes, go on It depends some students are good and some students aren't. What happens with a student is they're more likely to take the piss. They're always the ones that are a bit more boisterous, whereas the older ones you have to physically carry on in the shop floor, the students don't, and that's what gives them a bad name. It's to do with their age as well, you know what I mean. They're just growing up you know. People forget that, they're still young people you know. We were there once. They're young and so they've got lots of energy. All the more reason to try and catch them, I think. You can't put an old head on young shoulders, yes? That's right,. What about the other through the hat, Ian? How did you feel? Well it was erm, making me go back to something that goes on in branch all the time. To what I suppose would happen possibly about eighty percent of the time, where you're working, you've worked yourself off to do a superb drawing of a house all day, and er, the branch manager or whoever it may be, is walking round passing quotes, and walks off not really showing any general interest in this superb picture I've just spent all my time doing. But it's erm, I mean, that is something that happens a lot, erm, it just doesn't give you any motivation, it's sort of, you put your pen down, you think well why the hell do I bother, and you go off home thinking, oh well, the end of the day. That reminds me of the time at our branch they're doing a visit, and they didn't come down my isle, and they started to walk out, so I said excuse me, have you come to look at my department or not? He comes out, and he, he went down there, and looked out, because we'd spent a lot of time on it, getting it right, and we were well chuffed about it. Erm, and I asked him to stop and come down the isle. He said very nice, as he walked down. But I think he just walked straight down and walked out like, but, it was just an accident. At least you made your point. yes, we made a point, that everybody should be seen. Yes, and then he'll probably remember you for that. He, he has a laugh when he comes in now. What about the others? Rachel, how did you feel? Well it was good feedback, I mean you told me what was good about it, what was bad about it, and, and you gave me constructive criticism as to how it could be better as well. Mhm You know, perhaps if you straightened up on the side, or made it a bit more symmetrical, so that I know how to improve it next time. So, there's something given, that entitles feedback I was giving you then, some people referred to it as this. The praise sandwich, it's something to try and remember. When you're giving feedback to people, yes, there were going to bad things about what they've done, yes, there's going to be good things, but if you can catch the bad things between two good things, even if the good things are just saying thank you, they're going to go away with a bigger smile on their face, and probably feel more motivated for the next time they do that task. That's one skill thought about it, isn't there, there's another idea that doing that is actually, has the opposite effect, but the only, you praise somebody, when you're criticising, you say, well look you've well anyway. You're in danger of every time you're praising that person, they're going to be sitting back waiting for the straight away, so you couldn't, if you go up to somebody and they've generally done a superb job and you can't fault him, and he knows he's done a really good job, but he's just sitting back waiting for you to way what, what you've done wrong. Whereas I mean,, if you sort of give the criticism first and say the wrong area is that, and then finish it off with the praise, they know where they stand, and when you come up to them and say you've done a superb job, they're not just sitting back, thinking oh yes, what's coming next. Yes, I mean you can alter it around. You could say, well thank you for doing that, erm, there are a couple of things that I'm not happy with, and then put the praise on the end. I think the important thing is not to let them go away thinking, you know, oh, why did I bother, there's obviously no point in carrying on with it. What about, who's the other person? Are you talking about me. Dee Dee, how did you, how did that feel, the feedback? It was alright, but I didn't know why it was good, or whether there was anything I should do better, it was just alright then, that's it, I've done it. I think there's a danger that you can go over the top with praise, in that you're anxious to give quality feedback, the thing that you have to be careful with is that it's not just meaningless like that, because that can be just as bad as giving negative feedback. You know, they don't come with any idea of how they've done really. Okay, what I'm going to do now is I'm going to split you in, into groups, I want to split you into two groups, we could have up to you, and the dividing line will be you and then at the back there. This group, I want you to think about a member of staff that you have who is an asset, okay, a good member of staff. This group, the opposite, somebody who's a liability, you may have personal experience of this. Erm, what I'd like both groups to do is, first of all think of words and phrases you'd use to describe that person's performance in a formal scenario, I E in the appraisal, in an interview situation. Secondly what I'd like, want both groups to do is to think how you would describe that person's performance in an informal situation when you're down the met , down the pub with your mates, or you're in the room, speaking to that person. Okay, is everybody clear on that? Right, if this group would like to go syndicate one, and this group to syndicate two, and if you can be back by five to ten minutes. Straight after Yes, if you, you don't have, do you want to chart it up, or do you want to just feedback to the group? Feedback. One of you put it down there , no get him to write it up sorry. You obviously might just concur with doing some work or something? No, no, with wallpaper. It's my wallpaper. Have you got a spare pen please? My pen doesn't work. Have you got a bit more paper? yes. Thank you very much. Hi, Hi, These are the sort of things we'd say to a good person in a formal situation, erm, you're reliable, trustworthy, you know, we can rely on you to do a good job for us, doing your job well and with enthusiasm, when left in charge there's been no problems, you're responsible and flexible, you're conscientious, I can trust you for, to do a good job and thank you for your contribution to the team. yes And we also talked about maybe you could say, erm, you know, if you continue to do a job, maybe we'll look you know, at developing you further, but it's all sort of, pretty similar sort of things you're going to say to him in that situation. And informal, we came up with a great variety of things. Erm, great job, thanks a lot, unreal, nice one, topper, you're a star, champion, thanks for doing that for me, and this one was a bit disputed, but we had top banana at the end. Alright, thanks very much. I'm pleased. Right, what about the liability, the liability? Is this it? Doesn't anyone else want to do this? No, we'll leave to you. You go for that person. Alright, Erm, hold on, I'll give you some tape , this'll do darling. thank you, it's little things that Sorry, it's my problem. Right, that's the other one. Right, yes, I'll just move this one out of the way a bit, One or two things up. Right, this is the liability. Er,words and phrases, erm, not an asset, I'm just wondering what the title below that, that one, er, inflexible, flexible, I think it says demotivating. Oh right, I that that said, I thought that was another D, it couldn't be, demotivated, erm, you're too set in your ways, lack of detail, lack of commitment, irresponsible, is that, yes, lack of respect for your superiors, erm, disillusioned, you know, we er, we were going to put down things like er, mentally challenged, and things like that, but it didn't go down too well. Right, this is the easy one. , I mean it's a lot easier to think of these things than it is for the other one, er, you would say, that was actually lazy bastard, but we didn't want to offend anybody, er, useless git, Er, there was a great dispute about what this one could have been, I mean this, what the scenario's wide, but I think we'll settle for waste of space. Erm, taking the mick, she's winding me up, thick as shit, obnoxious twat, I wished they'd er, fuck off Leave the company? yes, so, erm, if only they would resign, er, need a kick up the arse, You're a pain in the arse. Yes,, but that's, that's the year before, okay. Thank you very much, thank you. Okay, let's have a closer look at these,Right, just, read a few of those words there, why do you think have a ring around some of those words? What is it about them? Specifically? Are they in areas? They're key words in anyone's er,response. Right. They're descriptive of their erm, They're descriptive, any other ideas why I might have rung them, erm, ringed them? You should set standards by them as well. Okay, yes, You can tell them in person what they are. Right. It's what you judge them by, if you set performance. Okay, any other ideas? Okay, if I say to somebody, erm, Alex, you're very responsible, okay, Karen I think you're very flexible, erm, Tony, you're very , erm, very reliable,, I mean, in is , in isolation, what do they, do they mean anything? No, Not really, No So we think of them as being descriptive, but in reality, if you're going to say to somebody, you're very responsible, they're probably not going to know what you mean, unless you come up with a few examples of what you're talking about, of how they've demonstrated that type of behaviour. Similar things like inflexible,okay, let's take another look at some of these words, it's not so much of this where they're an asset,, now I would imagine, that some of these as well as being things possibly you'd say to your, your colleagues when you're down the pub talking about your staff. Occasionally, is anyone going to own up to ever having said that to somebody? Yes Yes, we've all actually said this to their face. And all the rest. And all the rest, okay. Now bearing in mind what we talked about yesterday, why did those comments be potentially damaging, apart from the fact that they're extremely insulting? Because they're not constructively criticising them are they? They're just insulting them Yes, they're insulting The, they're resulting in a negative action, reaction from the person that they are addressing. That's right. And yet, when you've tried all the rest, it comes down to this, and it makes you feel better anyway, but it's the last resort ,it's a last resort. One thing, yesterday, we were talking about my wonderful stick man,here he is basically made up of his personality, a number of attitudes and outward behaviour. What did those comments get at?. What did they refer to? The person, his personality. Yes, they, they're talking about that person's personality, and their personality is not something they can change. No So basically if you're going to se , tell somebody they're a waste of space, it's not very constructive, it's personal, and I wouldn't say it unless you can tell them why you think they're a waste of space at least. I can. This is, er, this is the same face as you, yesterday I was on about, we've tried everything, it's getting down to that now. yes, but it's not working either It's just a shame that you've got to yes for the time being. You should only criticise when you're Well he, he turns round when he wants to be screamed at , he's asked us to hit him. But you've decided why you, you're just rising to the bait then aren't you, if these arguments are between you, and you're coming out with all this, it just makes you look stupid because you're, you're into , aren't you? I say, Carl, I think he needs to see So he was really good, and now he's, he's gone bad now, and you're using things like this to say to him. He, he's trying to make, he, he's making him, you aggressive isn't he and I would say that he's just thinking it's low if I'm going and this guy because, you know Yes, yes, I've said, I've said this, yes,why Things like that are not constructive at all, I mean I know you must get to the stage with some members of staff where you think oh, what else can I do, but Yes, but there's no point you doing it that because it's like, if they are a waste of space you're not going to be able to get rid of them because you've told them that they're a waste of space, it needs to be something that's much more positive, than just going round saying that. This is it, I've tried, this is why I've not talked to somebody else about it, because nobody else is listening. And it explains to them why has come out screaming at them and screaming abuse at them. I think that there's something that needs to be addressed there. It does doesn't it? I think it needs more time round here, that's Yes Sorry, again? If you had more time round, you'd use that sort of language with themselves. You know. Yes, I think that, particularly, that sounds particularly what you want then. That is, those types of things are getting at somebody's personality, and they're not constructive. If you're going to criticise somebody what I would say is, talk about their behaviour, because that's something that they can change, talk about it in those terms. Right. I'm going to show you a video now. Erm, how many of you went on the basic management skills course? Yes, most of you. Do you remember the videos, the unorganised manager? The ones with the job Right, well this is part three in that series, and I would like you to do one of, I'd like you two things while you're watching it. Firstly, make a note of all of the bully words and phrases that James Bolham uses when he's talking about, or talking to, or talking about this man's management. Okay, bully things, possibly in, in isolation don't mean very much, put them over there. Secondly, I'd like you to identify the three members of management that he's dealing with, are called Barbara, oh God, what are they called, Barbara, Ted and Doughnut. That's to see if you can identify what the problems are with each of those three, and why they're experiencing difficulties in their job. okay. I don't think I've ever the furniture. I think we might need the blinds down for this, otherwise it's going to glare on the screen. So a problem. Thank you for all the effort to put the blinds down very much. , only trouble on it, when it . Yes the erm, the Celestial Times Colour Supplement Yes I don't talk to the press much I'm afraid. Well if you could spare us a few moments, we'd be most grateful, your , it's for a new series we're contemplating, A Day in the Afterlife. I see. I tell you what, I'll, do sit down, so erm, you want to give people some idea of my jobshare as gate-keeper? Exactly. Yes, well I'm a kind of glorified immigration officer really. You mean, keeping all the rotters out? The rotters, the cads, the bounders, the bad-hats, exactly, yes. It's my job to weed out the black sheep really, it's pretty straight forward. But you must get borderline cases from time to time. Grey sheep as it were, where you have to exercise your powers of discretion? Very occasionally, yes. We get the odd mis-routing, there was a chap recently, er, should , you know, where, the truth is, he was a technical sinner, not a real baddie, so I decided to stretch a point, and send him back down again to try and teach him where he went wrong. What was his name? Lucan. Really? No, no, Lupin, no, no, not Lucifer, but like that. Luther? Lewis, Richard Lewis. God if ever there was an unorganised manager, there he is, never sorted out his priorities, couldn't delegate to save his life, never had time for anything, Tomorrow, Jimmy I can't do everything. In the end of course, he snapped, gave himself an early coronary. Mr. Taylor, erm, Mr. Taylor, So anyway, I er, I decided to give him a second chance, so I explained calmly, and with grim patience, of course it is, but we've got to plan it and take it to , I mean But what he'd got to do was to plan his time, and work out his priorities, by distinguishing between those tasks that are urgent and those tasks that are important. And then to organise his schedule accordingly, by allowing time for both active and reactive tasks. You will get that won't you? Urgent and important, active and reactive. It took a little time, but er, eventually he got it, and now I'm delighted to say he's one of the most organised managers on earth. See that, a model manager. These pictures are live by satellite, incidentally. There we are Maggie, the morning's correspondence. Nine twenty five. Ring Philip and B T, not that there's been any problems. Ah, Mr. , Richard Lewis here, Barker and Gibbs Catering, we spoke yesterday. It's amazing, he's a different man. I'm rather proud of it, yes, I think you can take it from me, Richard Lewis is one earthly executive we will be seeing up here. Now, er, tea? Coffee? Nectar? Nectar please, very dry. That's fine then Mr. , many thanks indeed, bye. Oh, that all seems to be going swimmingly. Now, in a couple of minutes it'll be time for the district managers. Martin, Bernard here. Well how much are they asking? For an extra two hours' shift,well I suppose we can just afford it, can we? Er, okay then Martin, I imagine as long as we keep our heads above water, then that'll be okay. A couple of ? I don't think so Barbara, it's a bit difficult to tell isn't it? It's unfair, Bernard, you've been in this job much longer than me, what do you think about this new menu for the canteen at Digby's Ballbearings? Crunchy nut salad,t , what's tortellini? Pasta, stuffed with spinach and cheese, spinach is full of iron you know. Yes, wouldn't bangers and mash be a bit more But Bernard, sausages are full of preservatives, pork takes longer to digest than any other meat, and potatoes are ninety percent water. Morning all. Morning Maggie. Nice to see you, you're working today are you? It's Tuesday, I thought Tuesday was golf, or is that just Monday, Wednesday, Thursday and Friday. No Friday's is gloating about my profits. How are yours by the way? Mm Erm, I'm tired, Tony, sorry. Erm, I was up half the night typing this stupid report. Half the night? Report, what report? I did mine when I came in this morning. Is that all? What are you talking about? The report on the projected sales for the next quarter, he asked for it at the last meeting, it's okay. But he didn't want that today, surely? It's nine thirty, Mr. Lewis will see you now. Right, that's the end of that then, so let's move on to the projected sales reports I asked for last time. , there we are, There we are Mr. Lewis. What the hell's this? My report. I meant a summary, not War and Peace. Well you never said how long you, Barbara, really I, I was up till one putting that together. I can well believe it, it's a wonder your typewriter didn't get a hernia. I'm sorry Barbara, but time's a budget item with me these days, I can't wade through all this. Just summarise it, two pages is enough, here look like Tony's, he knew what I wanted. Lucky guess, really. Bernard, I don't seem to have yours here. Yes, I'm afraid I haven't done it yet Mr. Lewis. Haven't done it, but I told you I wanted it today. No you didn't, you said you wanted it as soon as possible, and so far, I'm afraid, it just hasn't been possible. Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear. I'll try and get round to it first thing in the morning. Well do will you, this is putting my system right out of gear. Now look everyone, I'll come straight to the point, a lot of things simply aren't good enough. I couldn't believe last month's figures when they came in. Well look at them, just look at them, I think they speak for themselves, don't they? And one of you I'm particularly disappointed in at the moment, I don't want to name any names because I don't think it's right to embarrass her in front of the others, But in general there's a lot of room for improvement all round, all except Tony, it's good work. But for God's sake, buck your ideas up. Now then, that new vending machine I told you about last time. Here's the literature on it, and I want a big Autumn push on this one, it's a high profit item for us. How many orders are you hoping for, ideally? As many as you can get. Ah, I've got you, when do you expect them in by? As soon as possible, B , yes, but Oh, for goodness sake, just use your common sense, will you all of you. I think you expect me to spell everything out, oh, just hang on for a moment will you Barbara, fine. Thank you Tony. Er, now look Barbara, I know you haven't been in the job as long as the other two, but er, really you're going to have to do better than this I'm afraid. I think you know what I'm talking about don't you? Er, yes, of course Mr. Lewis. People just aren't very happy with the type of food you're serving Barbara. Oh I see, oh right, Mr. Lewis. These people want something satisfying, so you will try and do something about it won't you? Yes, of course, I understand Mr. Lewis. Right then, off you go then, it's my head that's on the chopping block so you pull your socks up eh. Have you time to , Idiot Richard Lewis, oh yes Sir, er, yes Sir, I've just seen the figures, I've been talking to them about it, oh yes, I've told them exactly what's wrong, but they don't seem able to well yes Sir, I know it's not good enough, but what can you do if you've got idiots working for yo , what's that,oh no Sir, I'm not asking you,what, hello. Oh damn, oh that's really great, I get the blame for these pompous, fat- headed morons, well I'll tell them, the next time I'll really tell them. And what first interest did your gatekeeping, your ? Well er, oh, manner Yes. Do you know the story of the keys? No Well it, it's quite a long one, but you might be able to make something of it, erm, there was this rock and erm Well I'll them, the next time I'll really tell them Do you You mean what on earth, is he supposed to be doing that? I mean, is it a new management technique or something? No, no, I, I think he's having er, another erm, excuse me. Shan't be a moment. Front door please. Oh my God. No only his personnel manager, are you alright? Saint Peter? Are you alright? Yes, no, it just isn't fair. They don't listen, and I get the blame. I mean I keep on tell Keep it short , I'm doing an interview. It's a long story, Urgent or important? What? Oh, but. Well you'd better get in, you can tell me on the way up. Mm? Well? I always get the blame, I'll be back in intensive care again at this rate, you mark my words, you should see the shambles they make of everything I ask them to do. Miss Angel of , here's Mr. Richard Lewis, How do you do? You will recall, no doubt, er, Mr. Lewis was, oh Right, if those of you sitting at the sides could stand up, move your chairs to the side please, and move the tables out as well. Thank you. And then come round and stand in the middle please. , If you'd all like to come and stand in the middle,yes After all these erm, can I come round there? Right, we're going to have an exercise in giving each other positive feedback. The way we're going to do this, I'll kick it off, I'll be standing in here, and , and I'll do a little act, okay? Now this act can take any form you like, I could go or I can go right, then I'll go like this, and I want you all give me a great big round of applause. Okay. As enthusiastic as possible. Then, I will say, ladies and gentlemen, I would like to present to you, and I'll choose somebody else, and the next person comes out and does an act, and then introduces the next person, okay. And I want a lot of applause. I want really loud applause , okay. Right, okay Yes, alright, don't get too carried away. , Ladies and Gentlemen, I would like to present to you the one, the only Anthony. , Tony, Sean, Sean Thank you I'd like to present to you Alex. , Claire ,, Stephen,Stephen I didn't hear my name, sorry. Introducing the one, the only Gerard What are we supposed to do? I mean, there's lots of sets of playing cards, alright, you've just got to do an action? A little action, yes. A handstand And we'll give you a round of applause. oh, oh, you've got to complete it. Anything, anything. , Er, Introducing the one and only Michael. I give to you Helen , ,,, John, ,, I introduce to you , That's it. Sophie , I feel Sophie, this is actually great. . Right, so if you'd like to pull your tables back in and sit, resume your seats please. Okay then, back to the video we were looking at before break. You erm, very accurately analysed what the problems where with Barbara, who didn't know her job, didn't know who her customers were etcetera, Bernard and Tony. Now I'm sure you can relate this to people that work with you, or the situation that you yourself have come across, how would you go about, first of all with Barbara, how you can improve the situation? I thought that's all been, you know, Why? Why not? Why not,, say Barbara, what would you do with Barbara? Sit her down and tell her exactly what her job is, set the targets and what you expect her to achieve. Right. And explain to her that although she did a good job with the Board of Directors, but erm, the ballbearings people wanted something different. Okay, so it's the idea, Barbara,sit her down, and explain what the job is. How does Sainsbury's, I mean, what do we have that covers that action? The job description. The job description, do you think that's a valid way of doing it? No It's a bit formal, isn't it. It's a bit formal, right so let me see. No, but possibly you could sit down together and go through it. Your job description covers a multitude, and the fact that it frames the needs of the business, doesn't it? yes, that's it. That's the catchword, isn't it. So possibly go through the job description together. For the staff, we've got those checklists haven't we? Right, how do they work? Well it's like erm, the store instructors are supposed have trained them on those specific things, yes And they, it basically says, there's erm, replenish, or rotate stock, and they sort of tick or sign to say that they've done it. Right. But erm, sometimes they haven't covered it completely, or don't understand it, they've just ticked it, and signed it to say that they know what they're doing. Okay, so you go into that in a lot more, in a lot more detail. Right so first, you'd sit her down, and you go through the job description perhaps, what about an on-going basis? I think maybe at first she should have a morning meeting, or a weekly meeting, to discuss the menus for the following week. Okay And perhaps Meetings on a regular basis. Try and encourage her , excuse me, try and encourage her to come and see you whenever she's got a problem. Over a period of time, it's the meetings to begin with, but if you could then reach a stage where she could sort most problems out herself and only came to you when necessary. Okay, so that's offering support, if you need a hand at the moment? Alright then, what about Bernard? What would you do with him? He already knows his job, to an extent You've got to set him targets, you know specific targets and deadlines and things. Right, now, do you mean targets, or do you mean standards, when you say targets? Well, I suppose it's standards. He's got to know the company targets Right In order to do his job. Okay, so you would make sure he knew that. I mean, I think there's, there's basically a difference between standards and targets, can anybody explain what that is? Standards are the minimum acceptable, and the target's what you want to achieve. Right, so, when you set a standard, is that to one person or for everybody? Everybody Okay, does everybody agree with that, or not? yes Yes, and a target, where does that come? If the standard's there, where does the target come? Above it. Above it, yes, okay. So Bernard really needs to be what the company has in mind. I mean they were talking on the video about profit margins, but he didn't company he was supposed to achieve, presumably there was a minimum for all three of them, so What else would you do with Bernard? I mean he's fairly lacking in confidence and whatever? Tell him the bits that he does do right. Right. There must be something. Pardon? There must be something. , so it's praise they're due? , Was that it for Bernard or is there anything else? He needs time skills as well, instead of just doing things as soon as possible because you get to the things that become more pressing take over, yes and you're just fighting, but he needs time skills in which to do things. Mm, Okay Okay, what about Tony then? Has anybody got a Tony? I did have. You did have, what happened to him? Or what was, what was the scenario? It's er, section manager at erm, a couple of years, but erm, well for the job, very well educated. Erm, all I can say from his view point, erm, totally bored, nothing to, educated. Erm, all he needs time skills indy? Mm He was practically running the department while I was working on the store for him, and he's ready for further things than that, I see Before he was very, very bored, no challenges for him, nothing to do, erm, this guy's been at director level, er, trouble-shooting for large abattoirs, going in and sorting problems out, and picking them off the ground, so he's had loads of challenges, erm, the company's just so slow for him. Erm, and now we're trying to side-track into, just pile everything on to him, he loves it, he thinks it's wonderful. Yes, anybody And he's sort of picked himself up now, and he's more , where I'm getting involved. , you've got your job. Anybody else? Yes, I've got a price controller that she, erm, can do her job in eight, nine hours, and it's all she wants to do. If you give her anything else, she can do that as well, she tries not to get involved, but I try to keep giving her more, so she's not getting bored with the job. How's that working out? Fine, she always manages to do it, she complains at first that she's got too much to do, but she always gets in done in time, as well as her own work. Which works out for both of you. What about any , anybody else had anything like that? Yes, I've got a guy in, well I've got a couple of people on the shift, and er, the more you give them to do, they just love it, but the thing about it is, I think the mistake that I certainly make from time to time, is the more you give them to do, you've sort of erm, taken something from somebody else, and then it, it's trying to keep that erm, trying to keep that more level, and fairness to everybody. Oh, yes,, I've got a supervisor at , who talks , she used to forty cases, and now she does sixty, seventy cases, excellent. But, Debbie was just getting to the stage where she was just to same on the shift, erm, but yes, you need, like,th , the, you get certain people that, they just need the challenge, but then you can find yourself erm, getting into a situation where you're giving them those extra things to do but you're taking them away from somebody else, so they're like just going into the background, you know. How does it, I mean, has that, have any of the other people on your shift had a bad reaction to that? No They haven't? No, no, they're not complaining because they're getting an easy time, er, I mean, I've got a couple like that as well. And if er, I mean one of these girls is worth maybe three others, you know, they're all erm, they'll , and still clear the shopfloor, get them downstairs, and sweep up for you in say, four hours, and one person does that while the rest . You know and he's, just the, you know, you can, you can really turn it around. But er, the job's just what he sees, they're just not bothered. They, they'll do their part, they see that part as their responsibility, as er, the rule, restocking the wares when I first went there, now they'll do, like more than one isle per night each, and get away with, when I first went there, we used ten people a night. And now we get away with five or six. Mm, gosh. You know, er, and we're still achieving the same job at a lot higher standard. Which is great. Yes, because you know, erm, we still save money on labour costs, erm, but there again when you get, when people do go sick, it's er, it's quite detrimental, so everyone's having to work even harder. You go on a management scheme, it cut's back your headcount even more, you know. If you show what you can do with less, you er, Yes, you know,y , you get penalised for it. Yes, nasty. Anybody else? Have an experience with a high flyer? Anybody been in our situation themselves? I once worked in the shopfloor in a factory, putting cream on to cream cakes, when I finished college, and they took me out and put me in the lab even though I didn't have any science degree, and I was in the labs for three months. How did they , how did they identify that then? Well they knew that I was a graduate in erm, they had two, they had a, a lab manager and an assistant, and they both went sick at the same time, and er, they asked me if I'd do it. They told me it was just like following recipes, and it was so I did. It was more interesting that doing this stuff to all the cream cakes . It's probably a similar situation at er, the last company I worked for, used to have me, me lunch hour, I used to go down the swimming baths and do two and half hours there. The job was still done in daylight hours, but you took an hour and half out every day like, but that's But that was, you weren't really being challenged there, were you? No No, okay, well, I'll put on erm, part four of the video now, of this same unorganised manager, and you can see how Richard Lewis went about trying to solve the problems of his managers, and see if you agree with them or not as the case may be. I'm afraid I'm going to put the blinds down again, or do you think? I do apologise for this noise. Start at the end. No it's too late for that now, we'll have to start at the beginning. So, er, you can organise yourself, but you can't organise other people, right? Yes, but why can't they organise themselves? Because it's your responsibility I mean they're so useless, why don't you bring them up here and grill them too? We don't grill up here, they look after that in the basement as you'll probably soon discover, unless of course you go to the lower basement. Lower basement? Yes, the basement is for those who fail, the lower basement is for those failures who blame their failure on their supporters. So let's take a look at your three district managers. Three people, each representing a particular failure of yours. First of all, let's look at Barbara, who doesn't understand what she's supposed to be doing, because you've failed to tell her clearly what her responsibilities are. Then there's Bernard, who doesn't know how well he's supposed to be doing because you failed to give him standards of performance that he could measure his efforts by. And finally, there's Tony, who's wasting a lot of his time because you haven't giving him enough targets to keep him interested and to develop his potential, and to get the best out of him. Three failures, therefore, right, to clarify responsibilities, to set standards, and to agree targets. But it's not all my fault. Yes, could you say that just a little louder, I'm not sure that they caught it down in the lower basement. Now, let's start with your first problem. ,Well done , he's right, no you weren't, I was just calling an order down to the lower basement. Er, no, not Barbara. Erm, failure to clarify Barbara's The first thing you've got to do with your subordinate, is to tell them what their job is. They know that. Oh really? Well they're not missionaries are they, or tail gunners, they're district managers in a catering company. Look Tony and Bernard may have found out what their job is the hard way, but Barbara certainly know. But what does she think it is then? Why don't we find out. You see I'm what's called a district manager. What's that involve? Well I'm a sort of ideas woman, and er, advisor, primarily to a series of canteens. My job is to use my knowledge and experience of catering to make sure that the meals are exciting, varied enough, and above all they're nutritionally balanced, high protein, low carbohydrate, plenty of fibre, and the key vitamins and minerals. It's quite a challenge really. Well do you agree with her description of the job. I, I, Well how is she supposed to find out from you what her job is, tarot cards, reading the leaves in your empty tea cups, extra-sensory perception? Waiter, take her, her away. How about telling her, and when you do tell her, start at the very beginning. Remember this, your purpose you toyed executive, is to provide quality food at prices your clients can afford, while maximising your profit margin, am I correct? Well if you put it like that, yes, that is the company's purpose. Therefore it's yours. There, that's always with you. Simple isn't it? So, what is Barbara there for. About another twenty four hours if she doesn't buck her ideas up. Over done with tea sauce Now have ever actually told her what her job is. A thousand times, I told her half an hour ago. Did you? Well I think we should take another look at what you actually said this time with subtitles for those poor people who aren't telepathic. Erm, now Barbara, I know you haven't been in the job as long as the other two, but er, really you've got to do better than this I'm afraid. I think you know what I'm talking about don't you, I mean it's not as if you're totally new to the business? No, er,ye , yes of course. People just aren't happy with the type of food you're serving Barbara. But, oh, I see, oh right Mr. Lewis. These people want something satisfying, so you will try and do something about it won't you? Yes, of course, I understand Mr. Lewis. She didn't quite get my drift did she? Not terribly no, so, you must define for her clearly what her responsibilities are. What are they? To see that each of her catering units operates to the highest standard possible while balancing our clients' requirements against profitability with due regard to company policy. Good, then you must make her responsibilities even clearer, by defining key areas where she is to get a result. Well that's not so easy. No I thought it might not be, let's put it another way. What are the principle areas in which your district managers can cock things up. Oh, don't get me on to that one. Overspending, complaints from customers, failure of public health inspection. Alright, that's three for a start. Three what? Three key areas where you can establish if you need decent results. Budget control, customer satisfaction and hygiene. Now, do those define the job fully? No Go on then. Well there's profitability, new business. Two more to use on areas, now would you like to tell some of this to Barbara? Yes. Tomorrow morning, nine thirty? Okay. But I thought I was promoted because everyone was going on about my originality. I thought you wanted the same approach. Well that's my fault for not making your new job clearer. That was great when you were a unit manager for a Directors' Boardroom, but it's not right now for a work's canteen. Oh You see your canteen takings have dropped by nearly twenty percent over the last two months. Have they? Well you should know that? Should I? I thought that if people were unhappy It's one of your principle responsibilities, how many times have I told you? I er, look, erm, what I should have done is clarify what you're doing here. Now, I wrote this out. Oh. Yes, and I've broken it up into parts, I'll be doing the same with Bernard and Tony, incidentally. Key areas. Right, they're the make or break areas which comprise your job. Now I'd like to go through each of them with you now and then again in two weeks' time, and hear any suggestions you may have. Oh right. So the first lesson in organising your staff successfully is to define their responsibilities, tell them what they're there for. Then, establish the key area in which the person doing that job must achieve results, and review them regularly to make sure your employee always has the same view of the job as you do. Well that'll help me with Barbara, but it doesn't solve Bernard's problem. He knows what his responsibilities are, but he doesn't get decent results. Well how do you expect Bernard results if you don't tell him which results are decent? Come again? Alright, we've dealt with responsibilities, lesson two, standards. Ah, ha, I'm a stickler for standards. Are you? Oh yes, every month I call him into the office and I say, it still isn't good enough, pull your socks up. How far? I'm sorry? How far do you tell Bernard to pull his socks up, an inch, three inches, a foot? I don't understand. Well it's not good enough, you're not doing your job properly. I know, well You've got to do better. But how? By bucking your ideas up, by getting a grip on yourself, above all, by pulling your socks up. But how? Exactly. All those phrases, useless. Woolly management of the worst kind. Er, a substitute for thought and no help to anyone. No look, every employee needs to be set standards of achievement below which he must not fall. Now these standards need to be visible, common to everyone in the same job, and fixed, er, like a yardstick, by which the employee can measure his activities for himself. If you don't give him a yardstick, you get this. We're talking about a complete refit really. Replace cookers, instal new deep freeze units, streamline all the worksurfaces, here you are, you won't get it done any cheaper than that I can promise you. My God, will it really cost this much? Listen, I'm doing you a favour. I've got to be so careful, that's the trouble, I never know when my boss is suddenly going to bite my head off. Still, I think we're making enough to cover it. You see, the poor didn't know whether he could afford the contract or not. He's having to operate on guesswork. Guesswork. Yes, erm, do you remember that report your staff handed in this morning? There you are Mr. Lewis. Thanks, what the hell's this? It's my report. I meant a summary not War and Peace, just two pages. Here look like Tony's, he knew what I wanted. If you only wanted two pages you should have said so, you could have said something like I only want two pages. It's not difficult. Oh erm, Bernard, I don't seem to have yours here. I'm afraid I haven't done it yet Mr. Lewis. Haven't done it, but I told you I wanted it in today. No you didn't, you just said you wanted it as soon as possible, and so far I'm afraid it just hasn't been possible. If you wanted the report handed in by a certain day, why didn't you say so? I mean if you'd set precise standards in the first place, you wouldn't have caused all that confusion. So what is a standard then? A standard is quite simply a measurement, imposed by you on your staff, that tells them exactly what's expected of them. It enables your staff to know themselves how well they're doing their job, and if they're keeping up to the mark. It helps them. I've heard the theory but you can't actually set measurable standards in all the jobs can you? If you think about it, you'll find you can. Well, we may not have enough time for that, so erm, let's imagine that you're a sales director, and, now this is more difficult. Let's imagine that you're an effective one. Now these are the minimum standards we expect from our salesmen. No fewer than ten cold calls each month, all cold call reports must be filed within seven working days of a visit, and a minimum of eighty calls to be made per month to existing customers. Mm? Oh I see, I am laying down precise quotas so my staff can see at once if things aren't up to scratch. Right. Ah, but sales is easy. Alright, you're a production manager. Right so we've agreed on a maximum of sixteen and three quarter percent paper wastage, three hours setting up time, and er, four and half hours printing. Well alright, but sales and production are easily quantified, you can't have measurable standards for everything. You can. You'll find everything is measurable in terms of one or more of these four factors. Quality, quantity, time, cost. Everything? really Miss . Well I Oh I'll tell you I've got er a a photo a girl. a girl. And she knew I didn't care for school. That I wanted to come from school but they wouldn't all ow me to come from school because me father had signed for four years you see. And this was two years. And he owned a shop did he? Mr 's Mr , yes. Mhm. I had a letter from the daughter yesterday. From America. And erm then of course she told me about this so my mother went to see him. And you know we arranged for that, but I had a bit of a job to come from school. To leave after two years. You know but we man I I got out at any rate. How how old were you then Miss ? Fifteen and a half. And then my erm my mother saw him and then I went to see him and Then I started the last week in July with him after the school closed. And then I was with him for five years till nineteen The same week, nineteen thirty, I took over the business from him in Valley. But I was in Holyhead. He had a shop in Holyhead and in Valley. Why did you want to leave school? I dunno. I wanted to go work. You know. Wasn't interested in sc Well I mean interest I suppose But I think what it was to start with I I missed the first term, you know after passing for the county, I missed the first term. We had diphtheria see. I had it first. And we must have caught it from there. Because er my mother was fair and she must have carried it or something and then I I'd just started I think a week of two or three weeks and my sister got it and the boys never got it. So I suppose if you don't get the first term in in county school, they don't bother with you. You you miss the counting don't you because it was different to a school like in the Valley school. And then er I suppose the interest Well I did well there two year really. I mean I saw a came and I started with him and I liked it. And I kept to it. And then they were giving up and going to America, they were going They had a sister. Mrs had a sister and er a brother. And his sister was in Texas and the brother was in Philadelphia. So they were joining them, they came over The Texas sister came over for twelve months and they must have persuaded them to go back or something. So they went. So I didn't know anything about it you know, till somebody asked me Well asked me really, Mr 's going away isn't he? I said, No I don't think so, I said, I haven't heard. Oh he is, he's going to America, they said to me, you see, somebody, one of the customers I suppose. Ooh, I said, I haven't heard. So next morning I approached him. I said,, I said, I heard last night, I said, that you're going to America, is it true. Oh yes, he said, like that. But we weren't going to tell you anything jut yet. We had something else in mind for you. So that's it. I knew then they were going. So when they did say they were definitely going, he said, what he you see, he wanted me to take the Valley shop over. And of course he came to see my father, and my father thought I was a bit young. H how how old Fifteen and a half Er well no I was nineteen and a half then you see, five years isn't it. And he thought I was a bit young. Well I hadn't got a chance to . So er Mr , he told my father, Oh no, she'll be able to do it all right. She's sure to get on, Mr , he said like that. I remember him saying this. He said, You're su She's sure to get on. So my father didn't know what to do, because he'd only just started on his own, so he was tight for money as well wasn't he. And of course in the old days, they didn't have money like they have now. And you couldn't get any money in the old days. No. No the same as you can now. Well they get money now a and somebody else had got these days. So erm Still so he said to me, What'll do? Well, I said, I'll give it a chance, I said, and if it doesn't pay, Cos he was better off than I was because he had the two shops. If he couldn't get rid of fruit here, he could get it in Holy rid of it in Holyhead because the country place weren't so fond of fruit in them days as the English people you know. Welsh people didn't sort of eat fruit like the the English you know. No? No. The not the same. And of course they have gardens and then they have apple trees and things like that. Well, I said, I'll give it a chance. Well so I went and then they came on the Friday night it must have been the twenty twenty fifth of July ninete nineteen thirty. They came the Friday night to go for the midnight mail you know the one that comes to meet the boat. Or the boat meet meets the boat. S so they came with the keys for me, the shop keys, and to say goodbye to us. And then I opened up on Saturday morning, first thing and there I was standing in the shop. this is all mine now. And it's funny how you get used to a thing. You're afraid of doing this and afraid of going into this and afraid of going into that thinking it's not yours. Isn't it? But I soon got into it. So that's the way it started for me. So I carried on and carried on and of course, the travellers I knew l most of the travellers I knew. A lot of them I Some I was told not to bother with. By him. I knew myself. I had a lot of trouble with them in Holyhead. You know. Yes. Yeah, some of them. Some of the wholesalers you know. Especially the fruiterers. Short weight and things like that . Mm. So he told me to keep clear of them. Just to go to so and so. So that's what I did. Then I found my way, you know, you you learn as you go along really don't you, a lot. And of course I carried on, carried on. Oh we used to do very well there. Really. And we used to have a very good erm fruit and confectionery business. And cigarettes you know, that sort of thing. Used to do well with cigarettes. And of course the firms used to call themselves you know, the I used to but direct, not from the wholesaler. C er cigarettes and things like that. Was that er, Wills, Players,and er Craven A isn't it. And erm what were the others? Er Benson and Hedges isn't it. We used to deal direct from all those. So It was worth it for the w for the when the war came. It was worth it because you had a good erm quota from them. During they were a We were put on quotas with everything. And when I first went to the business, they didn't have fruit like they have now, everyday you know. And round the year. Oranges only came in in October for Christmas. October? Yeah. Er they started coming in the Christmas oranges. You wouldn't see perhaps and orange during the Summer. But now you can get them from different places, but then they were Spanish. Spanish oranges. And the Jaffa oranges and things like that. And we used to get a lot of Californian fruit. Apples and things like that. , Oregons and another sort of. And a lovely Jonathan they had too. Cali Californian fruit is lovely fruit you know. Is it? Mm. Beautiful. Nicer than any really. But we don't get that now, they get South African's now don't they and they get Italians and French and there's all sorts of things but they're not as nice as the Californian fruit. So that's they way I started and then of course, when the war came in nineteen thirty nine isn't it? Well we used to er get Jersey potatoes and things like that and then new potatoes. Everything like that, vegetables and everything like that. And when the war came you see we were rationed for nearly everything. So the more you bought, during the time you were in business, the m more quota you got you see, according to what you'd been buying. And of course some you used to have points to get sweets and things like that. And I carried a very very big stock of sweets because there was such a variety. And everybody, you had to keep to suit every customer if you wanted to make a business. You had to do that. Or do without isn't it you know, you had to stock for the sake of getting the business. Then between that and I was never short of sweets, during the war. I er kept going. And they were on points. And I remember being called to Caernarfon once, during the time, asking me why did I have such a lot of surplus of points. You see, of course, some people didn't take use them all, they say, oh you might as well keep them. Then other people couldn't get enough again you see, so if they were giving you er points well naturally you had the sweets to give them, you're not diddling anybody or anything like that. You were having points for them. And er I was called there so I told them. I said, we is a family, I said, we're a big family, I said, We don't eat sweets, I said, Well we've got those I said, it's no use throwing them, we just put them in. And it nothing happened. You know, but they were very keen on er with the points. And then rations. And that's how I started to go into grocery, because you couldn't get fruit. And during the war years, like s perhaps we were allocated a according to what we were. If we were a fruiterer. we had more more quote like er wh what did they call them? Points was it? Or Quota at any rate you know. To No units they called them. Units, two units, four units or six units whatever according to your trade and where you were. Well they's a allocated me as a grocer you see and the fruiterer I dealt with the, the wholesaler, the I dealt most of with in was He said to me, you're not getting enough for what you are, he said to me. Well no, I said, I don't know why. Well they've allocated you as a grocer, he said, but you're not a grocer. Only I just turned into grocery because you couldn't get fruit, when you want Well you had a bit but not much. You couldn't keep going without something isn't it so. They had a committee somewhere, I think in Caernarfon I think they had their committee. And he brought this up about the units I had and he he rang me up on the Friday night isn't it? This was for tomatoes I think the quota of tomatoes. I couldn't understand them neither really. Because, they could afford to give me my back back ration and yet, they said they were short of things. Well at any rate he gave me a ring about erm sometime about four o'clock I think. He said they've changed your units, and he said there's an allocation a back allocation for you of forty baskets of tomatoes he said to me. I don't know if you want them, he said to me like that you see. Well, I said, I'll have them, I'll chance them, I said like that to him. I'll have them, I said like that. Well, he said, I'm putting them on the train and they'll be in Valley on the seven o'clock train for you On Friday night this was. Right, I said like that. So the porter in the Valley station here came, brought them on the hand cart he had. Not the lorry. And he brought me these forty baskets of tomatoes this Friday night. Right, I said, I'll clear the window, I said, I'll put them all in the window. Because they were perishable goods, it was no use keeping them you see. And there was twelve pounds in each basket. Clear them all except six baskets on Saturday. Good heavens. Yeah. But mind you I used to give them six, whatever they wanted you know. And of course there was market in Holyhead and people passing and things like that in it. And I cleared the lot except six baskets and they were all in good condition, so I was glad of these six baskets really because it helped you to give them one or two more. Because you'd only get half a pound perhaps and perhaps you'd only get perhaps, this unit'd only get two, According to what came into the country, or what was on the market. And then perhaps the next u erm lot that came, perhaps you'd get six to a unit, so you had twelve baskets, That's the way they used to work them. I see. And the same with oranges. I remember getting one lot of oranges though that half of them were bad. So we had a lot of waste on them. And then of course the boats were sunk during the war. And then every boat that came in, it depended how many cases of oranges or whatever it was apples or whatever it. But I remember one time one week, I had fifty cases of oranges in. Big ones, you know, three three sectioned er boxes. Not er like they bring them in these cardboard boxes you know, wooden boxes. Remember they used to used they used to get these, the farmers used to ask for these boxes because they made er hen's nests, you know that type you know where they Oh they were good boxes. But I think fruit was better in them than in these bo cardboard boxes too. But er I w I had fifty of them. Well I'd no room in this shop, there was no erm anywhere to store them expect the man just here see, where the g where they used to keep his car. Just there. Oh yes. Mm. For the storage. So I said, My brother was in the army then and my father was there on his own, so I asked him, I said, Can we put them in the workshop? I said like that. And he said, Yes, he said like that. So they brought them down here and they had fifty cases of oranges in here. In the not this one, the old workshop. And I used to take them as I wanted them and I cleared the lot. I didn't get any waste, they were in lovely c condition. But mind you they went quicker then because they were hard to get. You know, people And I didn't, well you were suppose Well we did mark the book at perhaps a p a pound to a book you know, like they were in those days. But of course with them coming like that and perishable goods, we let them go as they wanted them, to clear the lot like that. And perhaps we wouldn't see an orange for a fortnight, three weeks perhaps. Perhaps a month. We wouldn't get one. And the same with all fruit er they were rationed like that. But we managed. And then the grocery built up and built up like everybody. But they used to ask me for things but I thought there were enough s erm shops here really. Because this corner shop was here. Then the Co-op was where I was this one. And then further on there was a little shop like this one, they were grocers. Then over the line again there was another shop where Mr A P Jones Do you know, the retired schoolmaster that used to be in Valley, he lives now. There was a shop there. And was there a shop No I don't think there was a shop anywhere on this road? And then I thought to myself. They were on Oh and there was the er where the Midland Bank is, there was a cafe there and they sold odd things you know. there was enough there and people used to tell me used to ask for things. Well, I said, there's plenty of shops here selling that. I said, I'll Well they sell fruit and they sell this and they Well, I said, the I i that's my trade I said, the fruit and the sweets like you know more. But oh I don't and then of course the war came didn't it. So that changed me and after that it went from you know, higher and higher all the time, the more and we used to get . We have used to quite c quite a lot of the coming round here. and that way. Oh we used to get a lot of them. And er when I first came to the shop, the mo m A lot of them used to come by train and you know taxis or meeting and at the station and and away from Holyhead they used to stop by the shop for fruit. And I don't know what it was but they all seemed to say the same, the visitors, they all used to say, you've got lovely fruit here. Well, I said, it's only the same as everywhere else. but yours is much nicer. But I think the building you see, was a warmer place in the Summer. Ah. You see. Corrugated and wood. Yeah. Draws the heat doesn't it? Yes And I think it sort of sort of ripened the fruit better than if it was in a cool shop. I used to but mine under-ripe you know. All my fruit. Did you? Yeah. Because of that. But i It's obvious that you've always y gone in for quite stylish displays of your fruit too haven't you? Oh yes, yes I I I I we us always used to do that. We had baskets, special baskets for it. And I kept it the same and that's When we bought this in nineteen fifty four, there was a lot of alterations to be done. To suit me you s Yes. To suit me. Because, you remember that er picture o you saw with the fruit in? Behind the counter? Yes, well in well I've got some photos of this to be inside somewhere. I'll try and find them sometime for you to see sometime. But this used to be a bicycle shop, the first world war. This this one. The w the corrugated iron one ? Th th Yes that's what That's why it's got a window like that you see. I see. And then it's the window's high from the f floor. And I had to get a box and many a time I've fallen on my back from that so Cos somebody had moved the boxes I think . I've had a lot of falls in my time. . And then that was erm a cobbler's place. That's next door ? Yes, just a little place and that's where Mr started in that one and then he moved into there when that went empty. Yeah. That's h how he started there. And the bungalow's next door isn't it. The that came after. And er I dunno it went from that and and I'm sorry I I had to leave it really. . I enjoyed it. I feel sometimes I could go back. you know, but things are different they say, now. Why did you er did you leave the business in the end? Well because of my mother see, I came home to my mother. Because my brother was here, and he couldn't go out with mother being here old. You see my mother was eighty nine when she died. And then she couldn't cope with going out to the people there. And of course I was the only one that was single. And er really I'd Well I mean, I had my pleasure in the shop. it was a pleasure to I liked it. But I couldn't let my mother be here, and then it was more for my brother because he had a wife and he it was more for him to be working than er for me really, cos I come to pension age then you see. When I was leaving for my mother. I was sixty one you see when I left the shop. And then after that but er many a time I wish I was back you know. But my mother came first isn't it and it was easier for me. To come home than for anybody else. So that's why I came home, not that I wanted to come you know, to give it up. And then we And my brother wouldn't carry it on. I had my brother with me and his niece and they wouldn't carry on. No? No. He wasn't keep on being inside you see, it's alright going out. With a van. . So he wasn't keen on being inside so he wouldn't carry on. Well he had a job to go to in the council too really. Because he was looking after the council offices. And then he had a job, they had a job for him you know, and of course I he didn't want to leave me, Well I said, You can go, I said, it's alright if I'm going to sell, I said, that would be alright. And but he didn't leave until after I'd sold you know. What er encouraged you to move from your first shop t t t t t t t to Valley Stores? Well because I hadn't got the place to keep things, that's why. It wasn't suitable for bacon, butter, Cos it a hot place you see, and there was no room for putting any fridges or any Well I did have an ice-cream fridge there. Eventually, like, when we had ele electricity. We didn't get that then till nineteen fifty. Didn't you? We had lamps you know. Erm Aladdin lamps we had erm lighting up the place. Hanging from the roof ? Yes. From the roof, yeah. So there wasn't er the space for storage really. And er of course the co-op went. Closed. And of course it was up for sale so I don't know who said, Are you going to try? Ooh I don't know, I said, like that because I was in a g in a good spot there you know, it was a very good spot. I was there If I'd have been there to July, that year that I moved there, I would have been there twenty five years, on that road. But of course it went, you see with the traffic and things like that I'd perhaps it wouldn't have been s quite so handy for me because I'd no parking room there because there was a big back to there. You know parking space. And er so Mr was where Mr is now, then. So we asked him if he'd come to the sale just and I told my father, cos my father wasn't keen you know. Er I told him I was going to try for the Co-op. Well you're very silly, he said to me, trying. Well I said, I'm going, I said, I'm going to give it a try. I said, But I won't pay more than I can afford to pay for it. So we went, it was on a Friday afternoon I think, in June. I don't remember the date. And er we went in, there were quite a crowd there you know. And er there was four I think, there was a a Mr from Holyhead, and there was a Mr he he lived in Bangor but he was running the ironmongers that was by the station in the old days. There was an ironmongers shop by the station, in the Yeah. And he was from Bangor. Erm what was the name of the place in Bangor. He was there. And I can't remember who the other was that was there. there was four of us and we started bidding and somebody in the crowd started bidding four thousand. Everybody went everybody went like there nobody saying a thing. Mhm. So of course I g I was not bidding myself, Mr went to the auctioneer, Mr , he's dead. Mr now . And er he went to him so he went to speak to this woman about the thing and she was member of the Co-op see. And I suppose she had money there, must have been . It was a sort of like a I don't know what i whether it was erm some sort of a private or it belonged to this Manchester Co-op or something I think it was. There were memberships I suppose that would keep it. Oh at any rate, he they started rebidding and then of course it went and went and it fell and then this Mr gave up and whoever the other one was, Don't remember who he was. And er somebody asked him why he'd stopped bidding, Well, he said, I could see there was nobody in my line trying for it. When he saw who was trying you see. And then this Mr he had a grocery shop in Holyhead. But he wanted the living place more than he wanted the shop. I knew this Mr , William . He was friendly with my erm uncle they'd b both been in starting when they started in business. So he stopped and then it fell, and it fell short of the hundred pound they wanted. They had a reserve price on it. So we paid that because they wanted and then we had to pay for stock. There wasn't much stock there though. All rubbish, we had to throw it . But I paid about four hundred for it Oh but you had to if you wanted it. So er that's the way I er had it and s and somebody else asked Mr why did he stop bidding? Oh, he said, if we had carried on it would have been dear for somebody. But it fell for one one thousand five hundred then in nineteen fifty four. So it wasn't a bad price really, but I was able to pay for it. That was the main thing. You know, I didn't want to . The auctioneer came to me, Oh I suppose you'll want to borrow some money now. I said, No thank you. I said, Everything's all arranged. Was that er would that have been considered unusual to have had the money to pay that amount in those days? No I don't think so, no . Mm. Well er it would in a way because you'd have to pay interest on what you were borrowing wouldn't you? Yes. Oh yes you have to pay now a mortgage won't you. You have to pay interest on what you b you borrow now. So it was better for me if I was able to pay. I was free then, I could do you know. And then I came home after the sale. I told my father. I teased him for a bit that I didn't get it, it went for so much. And he said to me, Er, and then I said, No, I said, we've been lucky. I said about it. Mm. And I told him all about it. He was glad in the end too. There was nobody more glad than him really but I suppose he thought I'd go into debt or something but I d wouldn't do that. I'd rather be without. Oh and the er er one of the Co-op members, he was a big noise there I think, I don't know if he was the chairman of the committee or what. But he s he met me on the road one day and he said to me, Miss , it would pay you to give a decent price for it, he said to me. Oh why? I said. Well to keep somebody else from coming out. I said, It makes no difference to me, I said. I'll only bid as far as I can pay Mr . His name was Mr . Mr I said like that. And if it goes more than that, I said, it can go, I said. It makes no d difference to me. I said, It's up to you to make your business. You don't want to keep anybody else er er space for everybody if they want to try. It's er up to you, I said, you've to make your business. And er I don't know what he said after, I don't know. Mhm. But I think Oh he was a all nice and everything er you know. But you see, the more money they had, the more they had to share I suppose with M Yeah. I don't know. We to my w way of thinking like that isn't it. I suppose they was. he owned the place you know, the It was a good place. So we were lucky and then we opened up on January the fourth nineteen fifty five. On the the day of my birthday. Yes. Mm. When I was forty five. Getting old. Why worry isn't it. It's just how you feel. And er w Of course with that one, I owned the ground. In the old place but I didn't own the shop. So nobody could I kept that shop, I paid the rent on the shop for twelve months, I kept it closed for twelve months, to get that place going. You know to get the people used to coming. Not that it would have made any difference because I mean, people used to go into shops on that side, which never came up our way and the same with us, coming up there and not going that way isn't it. So We managed and we opened up see how quick they came. They soon got into it though. Did they? Y oh yes. Well I suppose they'd have been used to going there before you see. And near the Post Office, opposite the Post Office, so they were But the only thing I didn't like there was the houses opposite me They all seemed to be in their windows watching everything . That's the only thing because n the other place you see, it's quite open. Oh you can't see it can you. I i across the road you see, er There was a road er opposite. That it was very nice there too on the main road. But we soon got used to the place. You had your work and then you just don't didn't bother. But er you could see them you know. We were a bit from the road and then you see a bit higher. And then of course, we carried on from there and we just I was going to do a lot of things you know. But I never got to do them. If ever I'd lost my mother, Of course, we were lucky we had our father and mother. You know you know some people they lose them a bit young don't they. When they're young and they've got the chance. But we had our father and mother for years. Actually for that. Er and then er I was going to make a v nice flat and I was going to build a warehouse and things to But I didn't got to do it . I came home. And had to settle home. Don't know if there's anything else you want to know. You would have liked to have extended the business a little m more then, would you? Oh well yes, I'd carry on Oh mind you, we stocked everything then. We had everything. O=only the the only thing was that you hadn't got enough room to display everything that you could stock, isn't it. You know what I mean. They had to ask if they wanted. But it didn't matter what they asked for they had, we had it. Because they used to say, Oh go to so and so's you're sure to get it. You know and word goes round. I never advertised you know. Never advertised. My own advertising was giving them the the service and the quality. And the attention. But I ne erm advertised in papers, anything like that. So if someone w w w wanted something s specially, Yeah? you would order it for them ? Yes Yes. If they wanted And during the Summer months, we had the same people coming every year. Since a some of them c came when I was with Mr . And they kept coming and coming to me just the same. And when I was there and they used to send their orders they used to come holiday times, some people had houses in and . They used to send me their orders perhaps three weeks before they were coming, either for us to deliver or for us to erm have them ready for them to collect on their way up. Some used to stay in farms and things like that. And they used to send orders isn't it It was nothing to see fifty items on an order. isn't it, different things. And we were always able to supply them. W Yeah. And they used to say, some of them used to say er, If there's anything you can't get, if you haven you can't get for us or haven't got, er just let us know and we'll bring it with us. But they didn't have to. We always had them. And er my father used to do the garden then. We used to have a lot of lettuce and of course Summer Summertime, we didn't see so many because everybody had a garden here and everybody er you know, grew lettuce. And I remember one year, we'd had some Webbs Curly lettuce and I was We had a good crop and I remember one lady who stayed in and she come used to come Well practically every other days for six of these. And they were like cabbage. Oh they were lovely too, that year. They were nice. And we hadn't got any more of those nice lettuce you know. Crisp nice and crisp they were, lovely lettuce. And er we used to try and them in the garden just to get the odd one or two for somebody you know. Oh yes we had a we had a lovely time. They were nice though. Nice people. We had very good customers really. They were. And a lot of them have gone now you know, passed away. A lot of the old ones. And we used to have one gentleman come in from the country. And he's g he's dead now though. And he used to come regular every Friday. When this was with Mr . And I was there. And he wouldn't allow anybody else t anybody to serve him except Mrs . I couldn't serve him. Cos I was only young yet. He obviously though I didn't know what to . Well and he used to come regular every Friday afternoon, and he used to go the s a ch lower down you know, after you pass the police station on the left there, there used to be a butcher's place there. Lovely lovely meat they had too. And er he used to go there for meat but he used to buy two lots, one for his o his own place and one for the farm he had you see. For the one that was in the farm. He used to buy two lots of things. So if he three apples of apples, he'd have two lots like that. And of course this Friday, one Friday, Mrs said to me said, If Mr comes, tell him I'm not here. She said to me. I knew I was telling a lie. I'm sure he could see on my face. I'll stay in the back she said. So she stayed in the back. So Mr came in, he said, Is Mrs in? I'm sorry I said, she hasn't come. Expecting her any minute. And then of course, he allowed me to serve him then . And then after that, he never asked for her . No? No. I suppose he thought I didn't know the different you see. But that's one thing I did, I used to tell the girls I said, Give them decent things, I said like that. If you want them to come back, I said. I'd rather take the loss myself than for people to get you know rotten stuff. Or to bring anything back. But some don't bother do they? You know I get things now, I just have to throw them some of them. But er at any rate, we managed and he never asked after that. Whoever was there served him then. It's funny how you get into A lot of people are like that. In business Till they get to know and things like that. some nice customers too. but the only thing was, sometimes you know, the the visitors in the mornings they used to come out, the visitors. During the Summer. Some people, Oh these visitors and people used to say to me, Well now look, I said like that, visitors, I said like that, there's enough stuff for everybody. We cater for them, I said, We buy extra. For visitors and they want things that the locals don't want, I said. They buy things that the local people don't want. And I said, another thing, I said, some visitors I get here, I said, they buy more from me in a month than some of the locals buy in a week. More er and more in a month some of them than the others did in a year. And those were the ones that grumbled. Of course it's extra isn't it you see when you think of it. You buy, you're not doing the locals they we they weren't going short of anything. And if you had your regulars and things were in short supply, you wouldn't put those on the shelves, you'd keep them back for when they came in. Mm. You know. Mm. That's the way I used to do it at any rate. Well what sort of proportion would you say, of your trade was purely visitors? Well what I used to always say it was pretty steady all the year round. Mm. On the average. You do get a bit extra because you get passers by in Summer don't Mm. You know, stop for things. You see, the locals have their own things in the garden in Summer. Their potatoes and their vegetables and well fruits and apples, plums things like that isn't it. If they want. And then they used to keep you in the Winter more or less and the visitors making up So it was s a steady trade all round. I used to think mine was pretty steady all the year round. If you missed your k certain things, you were gaining by the visitors. Stuff that they wanted you know like the erm sugar and the tea and things like that. But other things, they had in the garden like vegetables and like gooseberries, things like you know, the fruit. . I I mine was pretty steady. I c you know. Of course you do make extra, holiday time. Like you you have Easter eggs don't you, and you have Christmas goods. We used to run a Christmas Club as well. And then I used to bank I used to post put that in the post office in a separate account, I didn't use it you see. I used to keep that separate see t till Christmas time. I never used it in the like people put it in the till. I never did that. No? No I kept it on its own. Because it wasn't mine till they had had the stuff. You know at Christmas and then I I managed to save a bit in the Post Office with that. For my old age. you do just do these things. You've got to work for yourself really haven't you. You can't expect people to tell you this, tell you that. You've got to according to what you think. Is that is that o o one of the reasons that you went into business in the first place? In order to be independent? Well I don't know. Er you know when we were children wasn't it. People used to ask they do with their children no don't they, What are you going to do when you grow up. I said, Shop owners. Well you couldn't go nursing till you were about eighteen or nineteen or something, if not more. In those days. Isn't it. My sister again, she was asked. Oh she was going to be a , that's what she said. Well she was . Well she went nursing again. Quite the opposite to what she was going to go. But she stayed in school four years you know. She did. Did she? Yeah. But er she went nursing, and she's still nursing. She does two days in Nursing Home in Bangor. And er she Oh I was going to go Well I like the shop so much I wasn't going to change. I liked it. And meeting people and that's what I like too. I liked serving people. Did you? Yeah. I used to I used to love being by the counter. Not that I'm one for erm like talking like some people do and wanting this and er you know. But I liked serving and I liked to feel that I was able to have sold somebody something. And not to go out w empty handed. It was you know, I did like that. I enjoyed serving better than anything. I I I had to do the other jobs as I know, but I used to like serving people because I used to like meeting people and sort of study people. You know their characters and things like that. And knowing how to please them. That's what I one thing I liked. Was able to please a customer. Which touchwood, I think I managed. I don't think I turned anybody away I don't think. What do you w w w what would be the im important ways that you would think you used in order t t t to please them? Oh well I suppose, put all your attention to their needs isn't it. You see, you go into some shops, you se I'm serving you. You'll see them talking to somebody else somewhere else and you're serving this person. Well that's wrong, to me. If you're er serving this lady or gentleman whoever it is, you should put your whole mind with this person, not er wait for them to ask what they want, and talk with somebody else like that, and that's done i in a lot of these shops. Well they used to but it's self service isn't it and that's a another thing. I couldn't join. No no erm Spar no what was it? Mace? Nothing like that. I didn't join any of them, I kept independent the whole time I was there. Because after all they were having the cream of the shop people and some of them found out that the hard way. And I said oh it's so and so that gets all the profit. I know, I said, I haven't joined them, because er they e they tell you what to sell everything. Well you see now, say tea Say for instance it was a shilling. Well perhaps if you bought it direct yourself, you'd perhaps get fourpence on it. I'm not saying it was fourpence but perhaps you'd get fourpence. Well if you bought it through that Mace, they tell you to sell and you'd only get on it. So I didn't join any of them I kept independent while I could at any rate and then . So you maintained a direct link between you and the manufacturer or or the distributor . Yes more of them yes. We had a wholesalers of course we had to get wholesalers for some things. More or less, but I used to buy my bacon from 's. I used to get that direct from them. And then I used to get from we used to get our sausage and things like that. Pies and then frozen stuff, Bird's Eye,we used to deal with. came there weren't many then when I was there, there's more now frozen stuff. And then er Cadburys all them. The main all the biscuit firms we used to deal with. And how many biscuit firms came and we still bought from every one of them. But they've all got their good lines you see. See Jacobs were noted for their crackers, more than anybody else's. So between them all we were able to b buy the best sellers from you know. Christmas cakes. I was looking the other day, when I was looking for some of these things. The price of Christmas cakes in the old days. Twelve and six, the cheapest, the smallest. Honestly, now it's price they are now. Mm. And they were nicer then than now. They were lovely. W wasn't there a an enormous amount of erm work involved? In ordering all this stuff? Well I don't know. E w It never worried me. I knew what I had and I knew what I wanted. And it's funny things some of these travellers Oh you get some awful travellers you know, Southern some of them. They're pushing stuff to you. And er they used to say, Don't you want to go and see what you've got? I said, No, I said, I know what I've got. I know what I want. They'd go, I've never seen anybody like you. They always seemed to want to go and look or what they haven't but I never used to do that. I was ready f if a traveller came in, I'd be ready for him. I knew what I had. See if I was fetching anything or anything like that Oh we had an awfu we we had a big stock er big stock you know. But we used to turn it over, not like they push it in front, new stuff in front of old, we never had that, we never did that. We always used to have the old ones out. And before Easter, after Christmas, I used to start buying extra of things that kept. Ready for the season so that I wouldn't have to buy a lot of things when you were busy. I'd have them in stock ready. And that's what we used to do. And er then there was a traveller used to say, Oh you're not afraid of buying. Well I said, If I don't buy, I don't get a chance of selling. You know. And sometimes you used to things had gone up, you were lucky in that way. Other times, perhaps things had come down, but not so much then. If things were dear, not by so much. But if they were cheap, that's the time to buy. You h you learn these things as you go along. But we had some there were some good travellers then though. In in the old the old travellers. They were good. Used to deal with erm er fruits Well they were er I suppose. Liverpool he used to come. As I was saying we didn't get we were buying in October ready for Christmas, buying them in. And this Mr he was, he used to c he well he was collec calling f with Mr and he kept calling with me the same so I used to order my bulk in October to come in for Christmas goods. And he used to come regular. He used to come in Oct October and he used to drop off the ten o'clock train here. He came by train. And then he used to have the bus on from here to Holyhead to see the other people in Holyhead. Yeah. And we Did he? Mm. And you know I don't know if they're still in Caernarfon are they? Daniel and son are they? No I don't think so? No have they gone. Well they used to call too. They used to come round with cheap stuff, getting rid of their rubbish. I remember them coming through the shop once, want any cheap bananas? Yeah, what sort of bananas? And they were noted weren't they for rubbish. What are they like? Oh so and so, Oh they Have I done anything? No. Er I said Carry on. I said, Oh, I said, Yes what are they like. And he'd say, Oh they're like this. So like alright, bring them in to see, I said like that. You know he knew I didn't want them. And then he guessed I didn't want to start with them. Erm he brought them in. Nice ones er one or two nice ones on top you see,rubbish underneath. Oh, I said, I don't want things like that, I said, take them away. And they didn't c Oh I didn't used to bother with them. No? No. They were rubbish the bananas . They were coming from Bangor with these things to sell. Of course I didn't get rid of them. I suppose they always stock you see a lot. Mm. You said that erm you enjoyed er m meeting people and talking to them , Yes. did did do you think you you were able to form a judgement of people on the basis of your experience? Oh yes. Yes I think so. Yes. Mm. You could see through them you know. Oh yes, you got to know th That's one thing in business that's one thing you have to do. At least I think so at any rate. That you have to find your way with people. What sort of people they are, some like a lot of chatting, other people don't. And you've got to know their ways to be able to serve them properly. I think. Study them, not to go and rush and push things to them. You've got Oh I'm breaking everything now. No. It's alright. Erm you've got to go gently you know. Around. And then when you got to know your customers and when you know what they like and what they want, it's so much easier to serve. Once you get to know the customer. If you came in now and asked me for a pound of apples, well in a way I wouldn't know a stranger whether they like them under-ripe, ripe or just ready for eating. Well if you're accustomed to serving and studying what they like t cos some will ask you, Oh I'd like some ripe ones. Well you'd naturally one or two just to see if they're in what they want. Well after that, if they asked for yo a pound of apples, you could get them the pound of apples and you'd se sell a lot quicker. And you would remember that would you? Yes, oh yes, that's one thing I've got I can remember. And during the war you see, we had queues for these things, when they were on ration. And one gentleman in the crowd, he said, Are we allowed to shift them? Well I said, I've got to, I said, I can't I haven't got time to talk to anybody, I said, I've got to shift it. You see, you were a lot on your own then, you couldn't get any help. You see if the girls were sent to taking them to other work. So if I had a queue isn't it, I just used to carry on with whatever was going on. And they were outside you know, standing. Were they? A lot Yes. There wasn't enough room in the shop. But I used to s shift them and they used to say to me, You know how to shift them. But I don't think people, some people like you to chat with them for a long time, other people they just like you to serve the, so they can go. Don't like to wait about. You know. And of course er we used to if we were busy, we used to tell they girls, I say, Look, I said, you can talk any anytime you like. I said, like that, but if there's a shop full of people, I said, just serve, carry on and finish and then if you want to chat after. And I said, If somebody's serving somebody in the shop and perhaps they you know two of three of them perhaps together, I said, but don't talk in the shop I said, go through to the back if you want to chat. Because some people are very very very touchy, they'd think you were talking about them. And somebody might laugh or something with something. One of the girls saying a something you know, and they laugh. I said, Don't so that, I said like that. I always says it. You've to sit a lot in the shop, go to the back if you want to chat. U unless there's somebody else wanting serving isn't it. If you happen to be serving, but I used to serve quite a lot myself. But I think they make a bit idle because they knew what they knew what I w You know I was able to serve the what they wanted isn't it. Oh. It was lovely though. W was there anyone who came to work for you Oh yes. Yes. Who was who you were able to erm if you like, if you were y who you were able to t t teach and show this sort of enthusiasm. Yes they were all there you know, everyone of them you did. They only had to be with you. Sometimes they'd stand with you while you were doing. Yeah. Yeah. But e of course they're no e You've got to have an interest I think to a lot. But I had some very good girls though. They were very very good, very nice, all I had. They were all country girls you know. No town girls. No? No. Country girls are much better workers. Are they? Oh yes. Is that Yes yes. that's the difference is it? Well for me it was. Mm. The others were more for dressing and er you know. But er country girls they set to it and work, they're good workers. I had very good girls really, I w would just just erm lost one of the ones that used to work for me. She died, last month is it. Yes I think. She died of leukaemia. She was only forty three. Mhm. Yes she was a nice girl too. Very nice, nice clean girl you know. Very good. My niece used to work for me too. There were six of us when I left. In the shop? Mm. Then my brother. And I had a a part timer, a friend, and my niece and I had There were six of us altogether, there was another like Two isn't it that's four. Yeah and my sister in law used to come M my brother's wife used to come and help us with the cleaning at night. But we used to clean the shop ready for the morning. Always ready to open. Floors done and everything, we didn't have to do jobs as like that in the morning. No? No. I used to do a lot of the cleaning myself. At night and er if there was anything wanted filling up. And I used to see to the fruits. I used to fill that . Yeah we were yeah we was We was like a happy family really, you know, everybody through and through. And that's a mistake a lot of shop people do. They look down on their staff. I think. They just want to show who's boss. But it doesn't work. Not for me. No? I'd rather be one of them, work with them. Just put yourself one of them. It's so much nicer I think. I was treated like that by Mr and Mrs , they treated me like their own daughter. And I said to myself, I've been under a boss Even though you've got funding for the first time for this I don't want to spend an awful lot on materials. Mm. I want us to use we ne ee erm static resources So it's more participative. Well, less participative, more us teaching, the tu teaching style will be you know, here's a slide show. Mm. I think we'll Oh I see. Oh I I meant are you going out and about looking at, I mean Mm. that's, it's more Again it's time. We couldn't do that cos we've got an hour. It's inviting people in and Mm. I was trying last year to try to see if I could get a erm an Indian, you know when we sort of do looking at Asia Yes. Mm. to try and see if we can get some sort of dance group in to get that culture over. Yes. Mm. Mm. or get the Gamelan Yes, yes to come pla That orchestra to come and play to them. oh that was er, was super! They loved that! In fact, they were on Italy, they were doing a concert in Ah. Italy, was superb! Mhm. So there's all sorts of stuff Aha. like that. Mm. Ha. Now then why I wrote this, it was, what about a year ago now since Mm. then I've been of accreditation Mhm. and actually written about it Oh have you? Aha. Mm hasn't Mhm. been approved yet cos Mhm. it came through to the school Mhm. But I've written it in such an open-ended way That they can choose. That they you know, any of us could use Mm mm. the the unit Mm. Aha and tack on our own Mhm. er Aha. oh pattern round Mhm. it so hopefully Mm. could, you know and the kids that also could. Mm. Maybe that's why I haven't had it back yet. Maybe they find it Mm. too Open. open. Mm, mm. Cos then Anne comes back to you to ask, yeah. That's right, mhm to modify things yeah. Actually remind me to ask Anne er Mhm. what's happened to it, that'll be great! Mm. Okay, is that fair enough? Yeah. So can we go onto page three? Mhm. Oh, we're not reading all the notes? Didn't you read all that? Oh! We've So only begun just turned onto this page! Well that's what he said, let's go onto page three. Page three. Oh sorry I, I'm sorry! I am on page three! I thought we haven't read all the way down! Mm! Mm. So these are, these are summaries of example units that we might do which either exist already or might be made to exist quite Mm. quickly and easily. Anne was expressing concern yesterday that sh you know, she doesn't want to have to you know, a syllabus. Mm. I said well that isn't right you know, it's up to our individual personal styles Mhm. and so on. I happen to like giving slide lectures. Mhm. Mm. I erm er I told her Mhm. so erm you'll find that there's a predominant of suggestions of slide lectures here if you hate doing them there's no reason on earth why you should! Mm. It's just that, you know These are the ones that are all backed up with notes? Yes. Da, mhm. That's right. Mm. But you'd have to do them yourself. And also, you know, you're not just limited to A one er, to use as the resource area Mm. erm I have a slide projector Mm. a big one now, down the library Mm. which I'm trying to encourage that, you know, there's not sort of remember how when I did buy it I I consulted with you to se , to show that we we were both compatible. Have compatible ones, so that we can take Mhm. it's Mhm. a carousel isn't it? Mhm. So we Mhm. we can take a carousel Mhm. loaded with slides Mhm. from the art department Mm. to the resource centre Mhm. be good! Mm. And we've got a video down there as well, working and tapes. Yes. Yes,. So the Yes , I mean, misgivings really is because I'm not within my area you know. Oh of course Mm. right, Yeah, it's new for everyone really. Yes. Mm. We're all in the same . Mm. Mhm. Mm. Erm Right okay so anyway, these are the suggestions, and they're not prescriptive. Mhm. Week one a slide lecture right? On a Mm. subject. Mm. Week two, an analysis written, hand or drawn or painted of an example of pre-Raphaelite work. Now it should say, at the top there, British painting, the pre-Raphaelites, yeah? Mm? Mhm. So week one is a slide lecture on the pre-Raphaelites Mm. Mhm, right. Okay. the project will go on for two or three weeks. Mm. So, erm er, the slide lectu , er and it says week two, but it means week two onwards. Mm. You know Mm. th the Mhm. kid would do work Yeah. based on that Yeah. side lecture. Yeah, yeah. The slide lecture will be pre-prepared for use by any teacher and we would have it in a you know, some slide boxes Mm, mm. You know there'll be about fifteen or twenty slides Yeah. some notes, and you'd sim they'd be numbered and you'd lift them out and you put them in the carousel Mm. Yeah. Yeah. you know, and we'd have maybe fifteen Yes. standard lectures Yes. available Yes. you know? Yes. Which between us we could write Yes. over the Yes. as George was saying yesterday, before he'd done erm two or three big ones on Mm. and South and Central American erm early, this, you know pre-Columbian Mm. er cultures Mm. the Aztecs being . Also, the Amerindian population of North America too. Mm. That's quite an interesting Aha. one isn't it? Yeah, north west coast. North west coast, particularly. Mm. Yeah. Incidentally I made a personal contact of somebody who actually knows so ,so some people who up there, in the north west Is the no , is that Canada? you know Yeah. It's North America Mhm. erm and and, and Canada. Yeah. Cos I tell you what I have got cos I went to an Indian reservation and I've got a small carving which an Indian did for Oh me you see right! so, you know Anything like that, cos Joyce brought a lot of stuff in didn't she? Joyce . In fact, it's actually a little totem pole like you're talking about. It's still Mm. in the room we must give it back to her. Yeah. Got a few little er trinkets that er Joyce back from Canada. This is only a two dimensional one though. That's okay, that's great! In fact Anything that's fast made available like this Yeah anything you bring in and it's You know in the trophy cabinet that Colin used to be in charge of Yeah. there's a er a wa erm, a walrus tusk penguin carved Oh yeah! anyway it to so Yeah. you know you Aha ! it's a . Oh No! have you not noticed it? No! There's Oh! all sorts of things you can Yes, I've seen that. where you're hands are. I didn't realise it was in the er Cos they love to touch these things. Mm. Yeah, it's incredible! Yes, I've got one of Peter's Erm trophies. You have also taped the wonderful programmes that are B B C two last er, no is it this year, Spring? Mhm. Erm, about the North American . Mm. That's right. I wonder if I've Alaska's still got all my stuff from the I've got those programmes from the Victoria Island Museum, because they're amazing Mhm. exhibitions in there of Indian art, and I had loads of stuff! Mhm. Yeah. Mm, so there's quite a lot of supporting material I, it's I'll I'll actually we have got see what I can dig out See see what you can Yeah. Yeah. it'll be grand if you could. Cos even something like a carrier bag that's got the design on the front Yeah. Yes, that's right. Of the Victorian Museum. Mhm mm anything like that. Mm. You know, we've we've got to agree on what we're going to what terminology we use Mm. you just said Indian, and I'm always trying to say what, what I believe is the correct thing to say these days is Amerindian Mhm. Amerindian Ame Amerindian Amerindian As in Amer American Indian. American Indian. American Indian. American Indian. Yeah. Oh! I I I just don't know whether that is right. They're often they're offended when they Red Indians isn't, aren't they? That's offensive. That's offensive. Mm. Yes. A er , whereas we're used to er That phrase. Yeah, a phrase. Mm. Mm. Yeah, I suppose it's like saying black Americans I suppose Yeah. isn't it? Mm. Mm. As opposed to Afro-American or wha Mm. or whatever. Or Ca or or Caribbean Yeah Caribbean. American,wha wha happens? I'm Mm. gonna be Afro- Caribbean or whatever. Yeah, we've Mhm. got to be careful to be right on in that respect, I think Yes. Yes. now doing this. Yes. Yeah, cos of course I mean this is something that, I suppose yo you're not for that yet some things that you assimilate into your language which simply becomes a phrase, like I always said nigger brown. That's right. Ooh yes, yes I never yes! I never thought of nigger brown as being an offensive remark. remark, yeah. It was like saying light blue. Mhm. Yes. And it was only till someone pointed out to me you shouldn't really say that It's an ethnic, yeah. yeah, cos I didn't, I've never associated it. Prejudice, yeah. That's right. Mhm. So we , this is a case of well Mm. we've got to Ha be careful of terminology. and not Yeah. use weasel words. Mm. Yeah. So I dunno if you're know we whether that is the the acceptable term at the moment Mm. but I think it might be Didn't erm Patrick's friend friend, what was he called? We wa wa was erm David He was half, yes He was half Cherokee he was , yes. He said Amerindian was okay. You didn't, he he the often the offensive word was the Red Indian. That's right but Amerindian that had, yeah. Amerindian Yeah. was was Amerindian was Aha. was an acceptable gesture. So this would be a Cana-indian would it? He would do a lot of Ca , canning if they're in Canada don't they? Cos though, these are Canadian, these are Canadian Indians. They do salmon canning don't they, in Canada? Yeah. Yeah. Is that why it's called Canada? No Yeah. never mind! Cana-Indian Very canny man! He was very canny actually as it happened! Mm. It so happened if he got paid anyway! He got paid. He got paid did he? Is he still For work. our friend? Oh yes, He's still our friend. Yes, yes, he's still our friend. Mm. He got paid for the work that erm That he made. he did er, he sent a bill in a erm To Bill. to Bill for that last bit That's right. Fifty quid or something. That's right. Of course, I'm glad Yes. yes, he wa he was very unhappy. Yeah, is he coming back or has he gone the other side of the pond? No, no he he he lives No, he li doesn't in Britain. Yeah, he Oh. does a lot of work down in London, he did a lot of work, well they done promotions er, and he evidently he was in a big job at , what was it in, in it? It was some sort of stage show wasn't it? Mm. Erm anyway he he may well come back as a visiting Yeah. erm, artist erm if we require er, request it they can afford him. Mm. So, ha, back to the pre-Raphealites Mm. the pre-Raphaelites, a slide lecture and then analysis written about it so there's a slide lecture being pre-prepared by the use for the use by any teacher hello, there goes or something! Three helico , oh, or helicopters went over three times in the night I thought I was gonna raped and pillaged but no luck! Mm. The analysis from E G get the card attached to your work card inscribe the basic information, followed up by research carried out in the resource centre. Okay? Oh we haven't done these post cards attached to work cards but we still No, we haven't. they did offer some postcards yesterday. Mm , yes, if I can find them Andrew. If you can find them I've got loads Mm. as well Mm. and perhaps we could have and evening session or two Mm. over the next few weeks Mm. Mm. where I will bring in my vast postcard collection Mm which like Mm. that one you've already seen laid out of the colour Mm. section of articles Mm. from the Sunday papers. It's probably one of those things Yeah. because it's covered in blue-tack Yes. and stuff they've asked to pick up and Chuck it. bung it out because Right. I'm talking donkey's years now Right , yeah, well anyway but hopefully it may be er,i in i it may be still be there. in in the midst of the cobwebs and stuff. So if I bring the, if I bring anyone of mine in which I do know exist Yeah. if we can sit around and actually make some work of cards Yeah. that would be grand! Yeah. Too popular arts right, so that was a an example of the pre-Raphaelites right? Number one British painting of pre-Raphaelites that would be a standard Right. you know a er, a posh culture, if you like. Mm. Mm. Erm well, you know, because we're dealing with, who are with, and because Yes. Yes. by culture we mean all of culture Mm. you might deal for instance with the popular arts and to erm, such as erm, you Erm know, er graphic design on, for instance, board games Mm. or tattoos, or fairground art, I've got down just as examples Mm, mm, mm. so week one might be a slide lecture on the three themes plus, erm a show and demonstration of board games, right? So I happened to have got some slides of tattoos and some slides of fairground er, art and erm some slides of board games of through Mm. the ages, and there's some real ones. Mm. And they like to be taught a new board game Mm. and, they can design the, the board themselves Mm. and design a game sort of. Mm. So I go on the same as er, weeks two to four an analysis written, and, or drawn or made of examples on one of these themes. Right? So they might design their own tattoo or they might design a fairground erm frontage, based on what they've seen years ago Mm. the, that kind Mm. of type style and Mm , yeah. primitive imagery Yeah. and so on, cos reme , remember they're not specialist artists Yeah. so we've got, if we do give them work to do it's got to be stuff which they don't feel inadequate to do. Yes, yes , yes. Erm yeah, well I suppose I mean, they are quite familiar with the Spanish City a lot of them aren't they? Oh I should think so. And actually I don't know differently very recently but along the front where these shutters which were the most horrendous graffitied awful places! They've got a series of almost like ethnic murals that somebody's done all along. Have they really? And I want to try and sort of clean well up that area and allow them to sort of do the graffiti. and it's very nice! Yeah. And the they're a cross between sort of primitives and and er I, I don't know whether they are ethnic paintings but, or whether they're sort of child-like primitive drawings or what they are, but Mm. and they, they're just done in the shelters Mm. and all the graffiti's been masked out Mm. but it would be worth the kids on their weekend trips going and having a look in there. Oh yeah! I'm sure we can have a photograph To, you know and of it, show them a slide show and then we can go and have a look. I could, I could go and I could go and take if there's, you know, if they haven't,no nothing awful's to them I could go and take some pics of those. Mhm. Mhm, be nice! Because they're rather nice! Rather nice! Well I've got film, slide film. Yeah. Yeah, just ask me and I'll give it to Mhm. before you go. Right. film which I've bought already from the pharmacy. Yeah. Will that go in a thirty five mil camera? Yes. Yes. Okay, right I can do that. Well thank you. Erm, so a slide lecture pre-prepared for use by the teacher, the analysis carried out by the pupil using the slides and then the visual material and work cards made available to pupils. I think this is important Mm. you know, if you sh given them a slide show that's all very well but, they may well want to look at some of the pictures for longer. Mm. Don't be precious about it, let them use Mm. the the carousel it's very difficult to break! Mm, mm. And er you know, if they wanna stare long and hard at certain images Mm. that's, well and good! Mm. Mm. So once you've given the them the lecture give Mm. them access to your Mm. notes and your you know material you've used for them Mm. and er they like don't they George? Mhm. And erm Yeah. did that with the African stuff, that happened. Yes. A personalised nine man's morris board or an original game might be produced by individuals or groups of peoples or a description with illustrations of popular tattoo motifs, like . Nine man's morris is just erm one of the games that is easy for them to devise if yo , if you want me to teach you how to play it, if you don't know already I will. Mm mm. Don't know, no. No, I I thought Nine man's morris, I thought it was a ga er, a dance. It is. Oh yeah ! It's a , it's a an Oh! ancient morris dance that's mentioned in Oh. Shakespeare. Oh. But it was one the er er er er, the village green Yeah. right? Erm, had a nine man's morris pitch Mm. Mm. with dancers and wood, sand one of the, the appointed places Mm. and they would be instructed to move in certain to Mm. other places Mm. when they did certain things, you know that man was killed and he was off, not really Mm. you know, he was off, out of the game Did i , did he have the sticks or They they, may have done the morris dancing type Mm. of thing as Mm. they passed each other and clashed them er, nobody knows, so it's lost Yeah. it's there's a re reference Yeah. to it but he actual dance is lost. Yeah. Er, but it was then reduced to game, with pieces and counters Oh! which is a lovely game to play, it's Yeah. very elegant, it's a cross between draughts and chess sort of thing you know Yes. it's it's really rather Yeah. nice! And kids love to learn it! Yeah. And love to play it! And then Yeah. they can design a board because the pieces can be you know, spaceships or Yes Mm. anything! anything, you know! Yes. Yes. It doesn't have to be draughts or anything. Yes , yes. The great thing about the game is that you're teaching them a little bit of culture Mm. cos it is a, you know the oldest English board game Mm. you're also teaching them to pass their time Mhm. Mm. in you know in a civilised wa A leisurely . That's right. way, you see. Instead of knocking some old Because they can granny about! That's right! They can create nine man's morris board on anything and use Mm. counters for anything! Mm. Broken in half match stick a shell and a stone Mm. Mm. you know a bro ,yo er, you know a Mm. a a ten pence coin and a Yes. and a te , two Yes. pence coin. And of course they can personalise them can't they? If they, if you've got a small group. That's right. An and they have enjoyed Yeah. that very much in the Mm. past. But you can onto more ambitious board games, er, I think George and I both seen some Mm. very complex board games with er cards and things devised by people in technology by Oh yes, yes I've even se , even seven and eight years! Yeah. Aha. Mm. And they can produce Mm. Yeah. you know Yes. really very complex Yes. and er Yes. you know very sophisticated games. Yes, we do, we do it in English, you se , with the with the text Mhm. erm aro , on the snakes and ladders principle they think of all the, the good things that happen or the bad Yes. things that happen Mhm. and Yeah. this kind of thing and the , they they enjoy going up and the they pick up the text in that way. Mhm. Right. They pick up, you know, the essence of what's going on. It's a good that isn't it, for literature, to try and teach literature, yeah? Well that is the point It's very good! Yeah. because it's a very friendly, user friendly way Mm. It's like a game, as you say it's, you're just playing. That's right , make something into Yeah. a game Cos I mean, that's how you teach a young child isn't it? A similar one Yes yeah. Yes, that's it, yes. Teach young children through games. Yes and they go through each Yes. page with a Yeah. fine tooth comb actually Yes. looking for strategies to play. That's right! Yes, yes, yeah. Okay Mhm. so we go onto other themes here which is three half way down the page. So, other things dealt with as above introduced by slide shows or demonstrations or videos or anything else Mhm. you know, Mhm. Mm. for instance some of the themes could be canal civil engineering and art Mm. you know, including the architecture that went with them. There's wonderful art work on the canals in ! Mm, mm. Looks fabulous doesn't it! Yes. And especially with Mm, the barges That'd be lovely to take er, a holiday a weekend for the kids, er, you know Yeah. along the barge. That's right, cos they've never seen Mm. a canal have they? Nothing! Oh, you're on your own there now Vi! And oh oh Anne! Where's the adventure spirit ! Even I have taken kids on the canals, it's great! Mm. Mm. Mm, it's lovely! Falling into the locks and drowning, it's wonderful! Mm. Make sure they wear their life belts! I went in the snow once! Did you really? It was brilliant! Oh yeah, I went Ah! in the snow really dramatic. I've never never done it in the winter. Mhm. Did you go to that one that says about eleven or twelve Yes , yes,Foxton Mm. Locks.! Is it ! I hate the great outdoors as you know and the kids but I enjoyed it. Oh! Yeah, I mean, the kids how they can be so agile in jumping off the barge Mhm. to go and get the lock, to open the lock and to It's Yeah. lovely! Incredible, yeah! Swi , swinging the key round you know, hitting Yeah! each other over the head! They love it, I mean it's marvellous! Incredible, yeah! Another one here It's superb! illustrated package of the products for instance the school, there's a comma after sound, there shouldn't be there, sound recording, cosmetics, food and toys comic illustrations, illuminated manuscripts, eighteen and nineteenth century painting, the whole galo , the whole Mm. cross section. And there's a lot of erm new books that I got last years for the library Mm. which shows a lot of this, they're beautiful aren't they, the art Yes books? they are Mm. indeed. Okay this is, this is the hard work for us now preparation necessary for year ten, year eleven courses. Each of three teachers prepares four to five topics per term, starting with a minimum of two this programme to re be repeated three times per term to A B C groups, carousel . That way, you know we after one year we've got enough material to Yes. to see us Yes. through forever Yes. if we need to. Yeah. That is if erm material,material for these topics should be lively and interesting for the broad range of pupil ability i.e. differentiation. They being always of sufficiently high quality to be intellectually and culturally developing and stimulating and justify potential of accreditation . Mm. Sorry about the printing on these pages, it's very bad isn't it! Mm. Can you read it. Mm. Mhm. Mine's Mm ,. probably. is always just . Yes. That's right! Care should be taken to conform to a cross-departmentally agreed formula of presentation and content for instance, work cards should conform in size, style and presentation and pre-printed questionnaires, planning sheets, and other documentation should use consistent layout, logos, identification, symbols, typefaces et cetera . And we can agree all of that, so that it makes it easier for storage Mm. and easier for use and easier for Mm. kids to understand it. Is that all agreeable? Mhm. So we need some evening sessions to agree on that, and Mm. find out what's available, yeah? Mm. I'll have a good old rummage this weekend cos I got stacks of stuff! Mhm. That may or may not be applicable but I'll just bring it in and dump it on you. Good! That's alright! That's fine! Thank you. You know because it maybe at sometime in the future Yes, I'll I'll lo , I love car boot sales like that, great! Mm. But these should be designed with a view to be pupil friendly and easily used by non-specialist teaching, for example, supply teachers. Pre-prepared units of work should be labelled and stored so as to make them accessible to pupils and teachers alike. Attendance registers and assessment sheets should be kept rigorously and easily available . Erm I'm getting at Richard here erm instructions of the whereabouts, methods of access to and operation of hardware, such as tape decks video and T V sets, video tapes, slides and projectors and other machinery should be kept with work sheets et cetera. You know, because Mm. if I have to go and do the music I, jolly well wanna do it! I don't want to sit there Mm. Mm. feeling like an idiot! Mm, mm. You know, without access to the tape decks and without Mm. knowing what's going on. And I would expect that er, all of us would feel much the same. Yep. Mm. Master copies to be kept centrally and available for all creative arts staff in A one Mm. in a filing cabinet Mm. so that we, we all know what's going on and and where it is and Mm. you know? Mm. Sure, some of it doesn't exist yet we've gotta create this stuff, but, you know Mm. once it's created Yeah. then it should be available to all, so anybody who goes to stand in when they're off with er, broken legs! Mm. Third process teaching and learning styles should vary as widely as possible in order to provide maximum stimulation for both teachers and pupils and care should be taken to plan programmes with a long term rhythm of change or variety the element of chance and serendipity He always chooses posh words doesn't he? but don't forget, this is all headed this bit for erm an ex-position for a creative arts teacher, senior management and governors! You know, I'm trying to get a promotion here! Show off! For ! Where is, where is that? Alright, I'm showing off! The very first part. Right at the beginning. Oh! Right! I'm prowling in other words, by using a lot of words! Don't worry about that pet! No! Erm and though You've lost your place now, haven't you? I have indeed , it's serendipity we've got to haven't we? Er,through for instance, spontaneous people involvement must be catered for . And I say that because from time to time I've had lessons completely interrupted by kids taking the ball and running with it and I've just sat there, it's been brilliant! Mm. Mm. Best bit of teaching Mm. I've ever done just keeping quiet! Yeah, yeah. And it doesn't matter, you know Mm. cos it's Mm. that's what it's about isn't it, really? Mm. That's rigidly adherence to a written formula for programmes is considered counter-productive to people motivation. Mm. Allowance should be made for the fact that these pupils are of an age where they mou , may either streak ahead of expectation to an enterprise or remain disinterested and static in their reception programmes. Both steps are natural therefore, either, providing too little stimulation or coercive pushing is inappropriate. Each pupil should be encouraged to strive beyond a status quo level but by encouragement to eventually identify personally interesting areas. Many pupils may object that they find this kind of culture to be alien and puzzling at first since this is a non-exam course there is opportunity for pupils to mark time without any serious results but to achieve personal development gradually or late on in the course at an individual pace. This process needs to be regularly discussed and recorded in consultation with resistant pupils so that they feel encouraged and not threatened where appropriate professional Mm? and advice should be sought by creative arts teachers when they are preparing programmes from special needs, special interest multi-school or multi-ethnic organisations other departments and from parents with special experience, knowledge and skills . That's the end of that bit Mm. then the next bit is list of er, resources that I have at home Mm. mainly Mm. about erm everything. Mm. And may I suggest that we add to the list, on the computer type it into this particular programme be , it's called arts list Mm. a word anything that we have at home, such as your little carving that you had done. Mm. I've got quite a lot of little carvings er, from I got one from er if you're prepared the Caribbean to bring them in and the and if you could, sort of type them in Yes. with your initials like I've done there. I see what you done, the A M. Yes. Aha. Aha. Yes. Then we know that that person has got that Yes. Mhm. and that if we want to borrow it in a couple weeks time Mhm. Yes. we can go and say would you mind bringing that in. Yes I Mhm. yes, aha Alright? cos they, some of them are quite delicate. Not leave them at school at all No I not. but just , you know. Yeah. You know, they're not goo , I no , I wouldn't just Well say they not in their expertise, so I mean, it's just an example of I mean, the old see a tourist shop and then I No, but you just said, that you, you buy every you know every , yeah. you're a, an airport junkie aren't you? That's right! Really? Yes. That's it , yes. But, er it comes in hundreds of stuff like this. Mm mm. Shall we have a cup of coffee and then watch a bit of this? Why not! Yes. I've abstained for lo Football! Let's talk about football! Just a boy's game? A good outlet for male aggression? A bad excuse for drunken hooliganism? A religion? All of the above? Or something completely different? I know what your thinking, there's enough football on the box already! Or maybe what have women got to say about football? I can just imagine! Well, I wonder if you can? Let's find out! Let me ask you this question first of all, do you like football? Button one for yes, and button two for no. Goodness knows there's enough of it around in Scotland! So do you like it since you have to be aware of it? Sixty one of you say yes! Thirty nine no! Who said no, and why? Why did you say no? Yes? Well I I think it's er too rowdy! I er, and I don't think there's er, all that much intelligence in it! It's a physical game and erm i it seems to me that er people should er develop their brain a little more and play games er which have more i interest for everyone, not just the people who like a good shout! Fair enough! Who else said no? Where are the no's? Yes? I think there's too much publicity over it! The big games are good to watch, they're quite exciting but week after week you get the English divisions, some of the Scottish divisions and it's really quite boring! Personally! But you don't have to watch it! No, but when you switch on the telly on a Saturday afternoon there's football, football, football! Especially Sunday nights too ! Right! So there's too much on television. . On Sunday, all afternoon it's flipping football and it drives me crazy! There's far too much of it! There's other things on. I think it should be curtailed! You don't see enough tennis! But by God there's football! Aha! So it's, so other sports you like, there's just too much football? Well,t , to me there's too much football! Here. I think football seems to, to bring out the worst in a lot of people and that's the part of it that I don't like. When you say people? Well erm the fans of football and, especially if it's like old games etcetera, when you see the results of of the fights with them! So you don't mind the game it's it's everything that goes with it? Yes. Or some of the things that go with it? Some of the things that go with Yep! it. Yep? I was going to say, you say you don't have to watch it, well you want to come and stay in my house! Why? Because if football's on it has to be watched! It's like a a religion! Fi Who faithfully followed every week, hale, rain or shine! Stand in the stadium and watch it and then come back and watch the highlights on TV at night! Discuss if we should go out socially, er it becomes a kind of religion! Who, who is this who's watching it? Husband. Just him? Well, him and virtually ninety nine percent of male population in Scotland, yeah! But not all in your front room? Hopefully not, no! Okay. Yes? It gets worse when you've got a satellite television and it's on up to, about five times a week! It's really quite it can be a real bore! That's your situation? I'm afraid so, yes! Yeah. Yep! And I have a sister-in-law who used to play for a women's football team so she's very interested and a as soon as there's a big game on, on the satellite they all come round and it's sort of into the kitchen you can make the the half time So it's not just the ninety nine percent of the male No! male Scot? No, both my sister-in-laws did play at one time for Scottish women's football. Up there. Women should not play football! It's far too strenuous a game! Women shouldn't? Especially when the a woman is childbearing, she could kicked in a womb, she could get kicked in the ! Don't say they don't kick, they do! It's not a game for women! Yes? My husband made me wait while I was in labour till a game finished! Until he'd before he took me to hospital! But how? Can we, can I, how he made, how did you It was my first baby and I was panicking and he said there was no need to panic! There was time to watch this game! Before we went up to Simpsons. Yes? I must admit that I, one of the reasons I don't like football, I think it is in fact, it's probably a very, it is in fact a very nice game! A good game! Yeah. But, them, the way that it's played now is it's not erm, it's not good to watch! There's too much fouling! And that's one of the reasons that I don't like it! You seen grown men kicking and pulling jerseys and Yep! I mean it's, I think it's quite ridiculous really! Yep! Yep! I dislike, like the bigotry it brings out in the game! It really, it's it shouldn't be! It used to be a family sport here, father and son and mother even went with them! But the bigotry now wastes the game! It really does! Okay! So it dominates our screens, it dominates our man, it's a religion, it encourages bigotry it encourages to neglect their se , their er domestic duties plenty of reasons for not liking football! Now, sixty one of you said you liked it and you've been meekly listening to this wha er how would you reply to, to all those various views? Yes? I disagree! I find it one of the fastest most exciting games about! I exist with a primary school football team and th the two skills that they're able to develop, the powers of concentration and hopefully a sense of fair play. Er, the involvement of parents er in the school life too. I like football and I find all the other views I've heard all a bit negative! If you don't like to watch it on television there is the switch off! Depends who's in control of the switch though doesn't it? Yes? Well I would just like to say I I find football an absolutely beautiful game! Mhm. If played properly, it's poetry in motion! And as the lady down here said, if the ladies don't like it, switch it off! If I had the chance I'd watch it twenty four hours a day! Well let's find bit, a ba ba a bit, find out a bit more about, about the people here. Let me ask you a couple of questions. Do you go to football matches? Button one for yes and button two for no. And out of this hundred thirty six of the, presumably of the sixty one who like football go. I don't suppose any of those thirty six are dragged along reluctantly or or or are you? Well we'll maybe come to that. I expect some people watching might think that wo wo football is a boy's game, rather than a girl's game, but of course that isn't the tradition is it? I think it's a great game! Football for women and men! Now you're speaking from experience aren't you? Yes. I played football for, when I was ten year old! But, I don't go to football now, I watch the television cos I'm seventy three now, but it never any harm! Some people say it's not very good for women to play football That's a lot of rubbish! Well tell me what's good about football for women? Because it's a good sport! Mhm. There's a, you could do a lot worse things that play football! Well I admi , probably I do, but And I don't play football! there's So how did you get into the game sixty three years ago? Well I was born in Rietling Aha. and I played football in the street with the boys cos you had nothing else to do, you had nowhere else to go in my time! Right! Mm. So, I played this and I taught myself and I had, I played at England and all over for oth , a ladies team, played a on a man's team and er, the we , the west and that,. But, the men didn't play you rough or anything but we had some good games! What you played against the men? Aye, well I played against men, but, but I mean it's not the same. I mean, they the men are more stronger and that but I've run around a couple of them and I've lo not lost a heat! And put it that way! Now ther , so the there's a veteran footballer and there ar , I know there are other footballers among,whe where are the other footballers who are here? Identify yourselves! Yes? Yo you've played haven't you? Who Aye. do you play with? Er, I play with Clyde Ladies. Since when? And how did you get into it? I can't really answer how I got into it, me, I got three big brothers so, maybe that's got part to do with it. Erm I've played with Clyde Ladies for about five years but previously I played with Stewarton. Er I played the game for a good number of years as well. I wouldn't agree with everybody's saying, it's a physical game. What would you say? It's a sport that's really enjoyable, I mean if you want to play you play it! If you don't, fair enough you sports you want! Are there good opportunities for women to play football if they want to? I cannot answer that! Do you think there's a prejudice against women playing football or do you think it's easy fo for women to play football? It is easy for them to play football, it's like other sports but I mean, people say that sports is nay for women! But that's not true! If you want to do it, you do it! The difference is that football isn't really encouraged at schools cos Mm. I played football after school but was never encouraged to play it erm, within the school programme, within P E or anything, it was hockey or netball and women just aren't encouraged at all to play football! Up there. Yeah, well my local schools the girls say there's a football team and they've done quite well through to the finals so it is en encouraged in in local school of mine. Yep! There? In some places abroad they have the women playing football before the actual big games which it would be helpful if it was here. I think I would maybe go to a match if the women played a wee game before the men came on. I And think it's Milan that actually do that. Would you watch fo women fo , I mean given the I would! Yes! And what about th the woman beside you who who's television is on a lot and it's football? Would yo , would you watch it if it was women playing? Possibly not because I've grown to dislike the game. Aha. Aha. It is a case isn't it, that if you want to be a er a professional woman footballer, certainly there's more opportunities on the continent than there are in Britain, is, is is is that the case? Yes? You get erm twenty four affiliated clubs women's football in Scotland, giving you three divisions so it's quite widespread. Erm, I work for Scottish Women's Football and the plans we have for this year erm, shall hopefully encourage more women to come into the sport. It's a good sport for women to play in and there's lots of developments going on in the sport and we would like to go into the under sixteens and the under twelves. So hopefully, erm if any ladies are interested in a couple of years, their children, and even themselves if they want to come along and play. Now, am am I the only person to whom a lot of this is news? I mean, it's partly I suppose because I don't watch a lot of football, but women's football is not generally, it's occasionally you get an article in the press and it's seen as a kind of freakish thing! It's very unusual! Look, look women are doing it too! And yet, as er as Linda said women have been playing football for the last seventy, and before that, I mean op , throughout the century women have been playing football! But it's never really taken off in this country! Well, this is a problem we have basically because again, your your media etcetera is male dominated erm everything we come across in in our line is male dominated so we have got to break down these barriers and it isn't easy to do! Erm we have quite a few helpful people within the sport, but we could do with a lot more friends. Okay. Yes? I and in Glasgow and we attempted to break some of the barriers you're talking about by holding a girl's week and part of the girl's was to run a five-a-side tournament and we were also breaking down territorial barriers, we had girls from different housing schemes within the east end of Glasgow, but I feel the opportunities don't exist! We did that and they did self defence as well as five-a-side football, but the opportunities aren't there for them! There's one young I work with who can't afford to be a member of Clydebank football, Ladies, Women's Football Club, she's seventeen, she's on bridging allowance, she hasn't got the money to pay the, the six pound a week it would cost her! Mm. Mm. So I I feel that that women are very restricted! Well how do young boys manage to to find the six quid a week it takes to Because there in more er, they they play within the school system, there Yeah. are, there are more clubs youth clubs promote it. Down there. Yes? You had your hand up? I work for Team Sport Scotland and part of my reignement is erm coordinator for women and girl's football and I find that with the equal opportunities policies of many of the education regions now that more football is being played in primary and in secondary school and the district councils I go to visit I would say that the majority of them are definitely wanting to put money into promoting girl's and women's football. What about the media problem? I mean why why why do you think there isn't more Channel four, I know, ran some women's football er recently but th th , they haven't kept it up very regularly but wh why why is that? I mean is it simply because men dominate the schedules? Is there an audience for for women's football out there? How many of you would watch it? In fact, maybe I should ask you that question? If there there was women's football on television would you watch it? Button one for yes, and button two for no. Now, I wonder if there are advertisers and schedulers, well I know there are advertiser and schedulers watching out there! Sixty two of you have said yes! There's nowhere that you see anywhere advertising Mm. where the games are getting played or I've never seen it in a paper that I've picked up in the morning, it's never been in it! Mhm. Don't you think the S F A could help a lot more? Well! Promoting it financing it from the . I've a feeling you've put your finger on a hedgehog there! Why doesn't the S F A give more support to the S W F A, can I ask you that? Er, yes you can ask me that. I think if you ask the S F A, er er at the moment we have currently very good relationships with the S F A we're not affiliated to them, we're rec , we're recognised by them. Would you like to be affiliated? I don't know if we'd like to be affiliated. We do have erm slight autonomy with the sport then Aha. erm, which is maybe a good thing to have. It would depend on the benefits you get that come with affiliation, and I'm not sure what the benefits are. Yes? The only way forward for Scottish women's football is to become affiliated to the S F A and I can remember back as far, as far back as nineteen seventy one when we pushed for that and agreed to recognise us. Now, the only way we can go forward and progress is to take the professionals' advice and coaching, we need coaching coaching for the kids. And how's that gonna be achieved? Th , they just need to, to think about the game . Aha. Be a bit more imaginative? Yes! I understand that are Mm mm. a lot of women who are enthusiastic. Yes? Well it was, we started years ago! Yes. I mean there's would recognise us, they would no of gave you ball! All don , so miserable! And and the write up in one of the papers well I was well I'd to tell that guy if he's watching I can ya nip! Yes? I think men don't like women to play football. Men have got this thing, that they think it's their game and they just don't want women involved! They wouldn't watch women's football, I don't think, if it was on Mm mm. television. I do think we should encourage more from a very young age when children are in school so that Mm. young children are encouraged to play football when they are But that seems to be happening. It's seems to happen to i Not I mean it seems to be available for youngsters but afterwards Not as often as one would like it to be. Not as often as you would like? They could do more after school . Yes. The er in response to your question about Scotland, I mean I think Mhm. perhaps we have to look at the societal thing in that there's something very macho seen as macho about football in Scotland which is stand on the terraces with a short sleeve shirt in zero degrees and having someone urinate down your leg and sort of assume that's a good Saturday afternoon's entertainment! Seriously, I mean people, I'm sure here have seen Yep. people going to football matches and there is this very macho attitude that Mm. football belongs to men. If we were sitting here just now debating tennis, or Mm. volleyball badminton, you know there's women's tennis men's tennis women's volleyball, men's volleyball Mm. there's no issue! The minute you mention football there's an issue! Why? No sport belongs to any one sex! Yes. Right, I'm very involved in women's hockey Yep. and er, I think until women's football take it on board all the way erm, they're not really gonna stand up with the men they have to become, referees, they have to become coaches, and more and more of these people erm, taking responsibility. I go along and watch women's football and get really infuriated to see a man out there refereeing the game, and often in a very condescending manner! Instead of carding someone he'll put his arm round her and say Don't! It's not very nice to do that ! Don't do that again! And I think that's really important that it stands up Yep. on it's own. Yep. And I think, similarly, you have to be very careful about having women's games before men's games because Mhm. sometimes the women is game, is seen as a warm up for the Aha. man's game! And it's only a bit of entertainment, and we must really stand up and say this is our game and, it belongs to us! Up there. Erm, just to go back a wee bit to the thing about th the image and and the fight that we have on our hands er, to to actually break into the media, I don't, I think people underestimate the control an and er the feeling that men have that it's their game and we're not gonna take it away from them! It's as if it's one of the bastions of of male power! I mean, we we had, for instance, at th I don't know if I'm allowed to say this, but the Tennants sixes were, were on recently, there was an international match at the half time between, er Scotland and England which was was a really good game! And we had, we had been invited to take part in that and it was really good publicity and, it wasn't even mentioned on on the channel that showed those th those games! But, we didn't even nobody even said that there actually, game had actually taken part Mm. never mind, showed a snippet of it within the Tennants sixes. A lot of women actually prefer to watch play football Mm. golf, tennis. I mean, I do myself. I'd rather watch men play tennis than I would women! And a lot of women feel the same. A lot of friends and my family, they all prefer watching men's games. Now, I think you're quite bold to say that in this company! I know ! Does anybody agree with that view? Yes! Yes. Aha. Yes? I'd, I would rather watch Davie Cooper play football any day! Than er some of the females, because he's got skill! That's what Mm mm. it is, you see! Aha. I played it Er ! I think, to change the subject slightly to the managerial type. Mhm. In the nineteen seventies I ran a school primary team, and at that time a woman refereeing football was quite a novelty. Mhm. And, it was the attitude of the other men going to a , play another school, I came across this man who asked me who the referee was on that particular day? And I said it was me, to be met with, what the bleep, bleep, bleep do you know about football! Mm. And, I pointed out that both teams would suffer equally! And, I got the great accolade the following season when he said, well you're not as bad as I thought you would be! Congratulations Beth! Can I just say er, in in primary schools you've got to catch the children young, but you never hear of any of the mothers taking the football teams it's always one of the fathers! I think they like to hold that position that they're doing their bit for the school. I remember being at primary school and the boys went to play football and you sat in the corner playing talking or the boys played football and the girls, would you believe it, got sex education! There's one for you! If that's not discrimination, what is? And what happened when the boys got sex education, or didn't they? They didn't! They didn't! We got put into this wee room, sit down! We'll tell you all, we used to look out the window and the boys would be playing football! No I've, things have changed since then. Yes? Er, nobody's mentioned the religious bias yet, and I don't know how strong it is in Edinburgh, but in, in Glasgow it is and if people are religiously biased they are ve , very often biased a about other things and I da , I think people should adopt an attitude of live and let live! If women Mhm. want to run about a muddy field and think it's fun they should do so! I I do , I don't really see why any one person should tell another what it can and cannot do! Mm. But I think you'll find it difficult i in er Scotland with men because er er er, they are, and same as the North of England, they are rather erm er er er, er difficult about, about women coming in to do anything aren't they? I, I remember being stared at because I was wearing trousers when I came to live in Scotland forty four years ago! Yes? Yes, er yes? I wonder if it's not the game of football that's a problem, but the attitude of many of the people involved. Mm. I teach physical education erm, in the primary schools in Edinburgh, and because of the equal opportunities, obviously I teach football to primary girls and boys, but I feel that the girls are not getting the opportunity Mm. to be again, learning about football for the stage that they are at. Consequently, they're always coming in a bit behind the boys because the boys have been playing for a bit longer, and I think it's very important that if girls are being offered the opportunity that the opportunity is good for them, and that it's not going to put them off the game of football because they're always in the position where the boys consider themselves a bit better. And I see it as part of my problem in education is to erm, change the attitudes of the the boys who are, you know, at a very young, and I'll be sorry to think that in ten years time they would still be having erm the rather arrogant attitudes that they have! I think it's sort of accepted that men need their leisure time you know, it's vital to them to either get out to the pub or get their leisure time and it's women that's considered they don't need it, they're you know, I don't think it's se se se , considered as important. Yes? I think it's often thought of as a way of men getting rid of their aggression and if they can go out there on a Saturday and shout and ball and scream, then that's fine! And somehow that's okay, and women don't need this! Which I obviously don't agree with, I think they do an outlet just as much and I think that's where sport comes for them. Mm mm. Yes? Not maybe because like the women have er got young families, they're having to look after the families, maybe, on a Saturday afternoon while their husband goes away. Aha. Alright, I mean there's I think we've got more responsibilities where the husband tends to be able to go away and do that a lot easier than what a woman would be able to do. Maybe child care's the ma , the main thing. Yeah. No no chance of a woman playing football while her Mm. while her husband Yeah, if she's got a young family, I mean, nine times out of ten it's her that's got to watch them rather than saying to the husband, oh I'm off to play football dear! See you later! Mhm. Do you see the husband washing a strip? My friend plays for the United and her husband polishes up her boots on a Saturday night! He also watches her daughter and er he's quite keen to come along and watch her play. And I think that's where you can start getting the males in the family and just say Yes. it can start for there. Yes. It can grow. They can get their friends interested Yes. and take off from there. I mean supposing women's football did get more support and i wen and i it did become more widespread, more popular at every level, there was time, the resources to do it, do you think the things that people complained about football at the top of this programme er, the bigotry, the aggression, the rowdiness, do you think they would begin to overwhelm women's football in the way that some of you think they've overwhelmed men's football? What do you think? Yes? I think we're being kind of unfair when it comes to football pa fans on the terraces because the majority of people who go and watch football are not hooligans. Mm. You know but they're branded as hooligans because they go and watch the sport. Now it is a sport, and it is a skilled game you know, and I think women can play it just as well as men, or against men and you know, you can have your fans who are very strong for your women's team tha just as much as the men, but yet, would they also be branded as hooligans because they go along and stand on the terraces and shout for the girls? Fair point! Yes? I work in a football environment and erm I'm listening to the comments about rowdyism and bigotry in football. We erm at Dunfermline Athletic Football Club, as in a lot of other erm premiere and first division clubs specifically develop family enclosure areas for women to come along with their husbands and Mm. their children, and they've proved very, very successful! One of the few areas that we sell out on most match days, and there's facilities for men and women and we actively develop these areas. We actively develop the toilet areas, the canteen facilities so that women are not left at home on a Saturday, that they can come together on a Saturday with their husbands and boyfriends and watch the game. All the discussion seems to show that the same attitudes are coming through in society. Whenever women begin anything it's, it's horrifying and shocking to begin with and as more and more women do it more and more people accept it, whether men or women. But I think one of the things that men are afraid of is that when women get into the things the attitudes change, as we were saying about bigotry and religion and so on with football, I don't think that men want that because this is the perfect club they can enjoy and indulge all that, but if women really get into it the thing will change as society does. Splendid! On which note we shall finish! It's been a very revealing programme for me and I hope for you. Sixty one of these hundred women like foo football, sixty two would watch it if there was more of it on television. I hope you'll join us again. Goodbye! On kiss. On kiss. and they come in tubes and there's four in a tube of them. you can have loads of those. I'll give you ten for that. Are you gonna come back tomorrow? Am I allowed? Well yes. Oh alright then. yeah you can carry on till somebody knocks you off your perch. Yeah And let's just hope it's soon. I'll talk to you tomorrow. Oh thanks. Tarrah. Bye. Bye bye, Loot at Lunchtime tomorrow then, ten to one, er quarter to oneish just after the Action Line bulletin, listen in then and we'll give you the qualifying question. Sixteen minutes to two now this is erm Vanity Fair and it's early in the morning. No it's not. Vanity Fair and er it's early in the morning. It's er middle of the afternoon, it's er Radio Nottingham, thirteen minutes to two now. On the trains no problems, East Midlands Airport say everything's running to time, in the city centre no huge delays anywhere, on the motorways they're all okay as well, on the A One there's major work just started on the roundabout, that's the er five lanes end roundabout affecting southbound traffic, there are long delays there in peak times, that's at er five lane ends, the work there on the A One just started, that's the Roundabout, southbound traffic is being affected, there are long delays there. Road in the A Six Double O Five there's roadworks on the junction of Lane causing some delays. Newark town centre, Hill er area of the town, part of is closed so diversions are signed there. On the A Six O Nine there's resurfacing on Road between Drive and Drive and erm further up the M One junction eighteen, it's down to one lane on the southbound carriageway that is causing delays and there is a contraflow on the M One between junctions twenty one and twenty two in operation there in both directions. No problems there at the moment but if you're heading there later on watch it. Updates on the travel for you throughout the afternoon and a full service at teatime with John on Radio Nottingham from er half four till seven. F M one O three point eight and ninety five point five, Nottinghamshire's favourite station. And the weather forecast for this afternoon and this evening from John from off you go. Yes er rain reaching most parts of the region th this afternoon, tonight will be cloudy with further rain, becoming drier in the morning. The outlook for Wednesday, dry but isolated showers may occur or develop. Yeah. Thursday. Early mist and frost clearing leaving sunny spells, less than twenty five per cent chance of rain. That's good isn't eh? Twenty five per cent. Yeah I dunno how they work that one out. Well I don't know, it's er big of string isn't it or something like Ah that's it, string and a plumb bob. Hold their finger up and see which way the wind's blowing. That's it. Bye John. Okay, cheers Geoff. Tarrah. Take care. Let me just do this from er Road police station. They want twelve volunteers for an I D parade. It's at seven o'clock tonight, it's at Road police station, they're looking for white males aged about fortyish, five foot five to six foot approximately tall, of slim build, need to be clean shaven, shoulder length dark brown hair. If you'll stand in the I D parade for them tonight at seven o'clock they'll give you ten pounds. Can you call and ask for Inspector , he'll tell you more. That's they'll give you a tenner, you need to be white male, fortyish, five foot five to six foot, slim build, clean shaven. They'll give you ten pounds, to call for an I D parade tonight. They need a dozen people, ask for Inspector when you ring. Lee Marvin and er wandering star. It's Radio Nottingham and it's eight minutes to two. We'll do Kids' County these have been the clues for today's one. It's got loads of mud loads of mud. loads of loads of egg loads of eggs hatched. It's got a greenhouse next to it. It's got people I mean it's got someone's mums on it. It's got a lot of plants in it. People come and visit it and Now we know it not a chicken factory, it's not the Farm, it's not Farm, it's not Park or Pond, or the arboretum or Hill. Elizabeth is on at work in town. Hello. Hello. Where are you at work in town? At . What? . Where's that? It's on . On where? Oh . yes. Ah, who was the erm who, who is it who makes th the curtains and blinds? And she has her picture on all the adverts? Oh I don't And she's she's up there somewhere and underneath it it says, it says, I am the lady I make them. Oh yes well I don't know who that one i Don't you know who it is? No. It's always in the Post. Yes. It's always in there, and er and I can remember walking around there and seeing the place where they make them, and her photograph's outside and underneath it says, I am the lady I make them. me It's not you is it? I don't think so. It's not you? No Are you busy today? Yes we're always busy. Are you? What d do you make them or sell them or what? Yes we do make them and sell them. So have you got big machines there? Yes. Have you? Yes. Well d do you actually sort of make the lace fr from scratch or? Yes that's right yes. Do you? Mhm. Funny cos there aren't many places left that do that now are there? Oh no we don't make it from scratch, we just do the you know the m main machining Oh I see you just run 'em up? Yes, that's right make the curtain yes. I get it. Look there's Kids' County Elizabeth where are we after? Where did I say? I've forgotten now. I dunno know where you said. I'm sorry darling Park. Park ? Yes No it's not . just gave me the hint you see. It's not but it's a lovely thought. Oh Yeah, have you been on before? Well I do ring up now and again yes. Do ya? But I've never been talking to you before. Oh haven't you? No. So do you want a a Radio Virgin thing then? Oh alright then. Well you can have one of those for being your first time on. Hang on the line we'll sort you out with one of them, alright? Oh my god it's not my Tarrah. Hello. Bye bye. Bye bye Hang on the line we'll sort you o , she's getting all confused. Er Jerry's on from , hello Jerry. Hello . How are ya? Oh er not too bad you know. It's turned out nasty I know that . It has hasn't it? Turned out drippy again. It's a good job I took the dog out this morning cos it ain't fit to take a dog out. It's not now,to get a brolly for your dog. Get one of those ones that you strap on its back. Er n Kids' County, where they talking about? Er er . ? No it's not. It's not, never mind, tarrah. Tarrah. Bye bye. Who's on next? Lillian from , hello Lillian. Hello. How are you? Fine thank you. and tell me about you, what do you do? Well I'm a housewife and I've been painting most of the morning. Oh have you? What room is it? Well I've been doing the landing you know, paint w white paintwork. Er busy doing that. This afternoon ironing so A oh so oh now you've got all the jobs done haven't you today? That's it. What a time of it you've got. How many kids have you got? Two but they're grown up. You know th twenty two and ninete er nineteen so mine aren't really small children. I see you've got shut of them already you see? Well I've got one at home but Oh have you? Yes. Yeah. Anyway look Kids' County, where do you think we need Lillian? Well I think it's the School in the complex. erm The greenhouse. Yes go on then you can have it. You can have it, they're talking about the farm that they've got at the School Yes that's yeah. I know they've got a farm Yes,th they sell plants. s so that's it. So erm now I've talked you for so long that I've not got time to play this bit about the werewolves at Retford you see Really? so I'll blame you for it entirely Lillian Yes okay. and er if the werewolves come out then er we'll send them round to your house. Oh thank you. Do your kids go up to School then is that where they went? No no they didn't used to go there but we lived in . No they used to go to the . Oh did they? Yeah. Oh I see. I see. What bit of W I can remember being built. Can you? Cos I used to go to Trent Bridge in er then, you know in the early fifties. Yeah. And I can remember that being built. Ah right I see. School then. It was called the School. Ah yeah for Kids' County, you can have er a video called the Battle of the Atlantic, one of those, er a child's reading book, you can have loads of nuts and sweets er a T shirt and some recipes and things too, alright? Oh yeah lovely thank you. Hang on the line we'll lob it all off to you, well done it was the farm at School. Alright, tarrah. bye bye. Bye bye there. Lillian getting that right. Er last one from me today will be this from everything but the girl. everything but the girl. And er love is strange. Dennis is next with afternoon special, it's Tuesday so it's where are you now ? And then John at teatime, the football from seven and then John from ten till midnight, on the county's favourite radio station, it's B B C Radio Nottingham at two o'clock. Radio Nottingham News with Andy . Within the past hour has announced that a review is being launched into the future of three pits in Yorkshire with the intention of closing them all down. The mines involved are and near Doncaster and near Pontefract. The company says the prospects for all three are bleak. Richard reports. 's northern director told a meeting of union officials that prospects for the three pits are bleak. More coal is being produced that can be sold, even the coal burn at power stations this year is likely to be seven million tons less than expected. Half that amount comes from Yorkshire pits. says two of the collieries, and are operating at a loss. The third is producing coal cheaply but most of it is being stockpiled because no one wants to buy it. A spokesman for the National Union of Mineworkers says it's what was expected. The country will soon be without a viable coal industry, he said, and will have to rely increasingly on imported energy supplies. Contempt writs have been served against the Home Secretary and his predecessor Kenneth Clarke. It's understood the proceedings arise from their decision to deport the legal guardian of six Nottingham children who were prohibited from leaving the country. has been looking after her younger brothers and sisters since they were made wards of court when their parents were sent back to India. This report from Jeremy . The family came to Britain from Assam when their home was burnt down during Hindu Sikh riots nine years ago. But after losing a protracted fight for asylum both parents were deported. Now their eldest daughter has been told to leave too, but her supporters believe the decision is a clear breach of the children's wardship order. Lawyers are expected to argue that Michael Howard and Mr Clarke are both in contempt of the court's decision by pursuing her deportation. If found guilty they could be fined and ordered to pay court costs. It'd also allow Miss 's lawyers to seek an injunction preventing the deportation which would set a legal precedent. Her supporters believe it would force the government to reexamine their deportation procedures. The jury in the James murder trial at Preston Crown Court has been read a statement by a train driver who described how two days after James's disappearance, he saw human remains on the railway line at Walton. Two eleven year old boys deny the abduction and murder of James and the attempted abduction of another boy. Adam reports. The prosecution showed the jury at Preston Crown Court several bags of stones, bricks and masonry found on the railway embankment where James's body was discovered. Some of the stones were said to be stained with blood. They were also shown an iron bar. The judge Mr Justice described it as heavy and as it was handed to members of the jury he warned them not to drop it. A quantity of clothing was also shown to the court. The courtroom fell silent as the exhibits were passed round. Earlier there was evidence from a train driver who said he had seen human remains lying by the track at Walton. The trial continues. Solicitors acting for the Princess of Wales have demanded that secret photographs of her working out in a gym should be handed over and that she should be given details of how much money was made from them. This morning writs were issued in the High Court against the editors of the and and against the gym and its owner. Police in Jersey searching for the bodies of Nicholas and Elizabeth who were killed six years ago have found what appear to be human remains. Their two sons Mark and Roderick have been charged with their murders. This morning Mark appeared in court on the island and again denied the charge. He was remanded in custody for a week. A school near Eastwood's been closed today after staff complained that fumes in the building were causing chest and throat problems. Health officials and experts from are trying to trace the cause of the gases at Junior School. People began to feel ill yesterday afternoon and today the head Jean has told all two hundred and forty four pupils to stay at home. She says experts think the fumes are coming from the drains. People are experiencing a smell which is not particularly distressing. But it seems to be getting into the the the throat and and the chest. Adults have noticed throat and chest difficulties there. We've more or less pinned it down to coming from the the drainage systems. And police on Merseyside have arrested thirteen people today in connection with the sale of the drug crack. More than two hundred officers took part in the operation which centred on the Toxteth area of the city. And the weather, overcast with rain soon reaching all parts today, becoming heavy at times, the maximum temperatures up to ten celsius fifty fahrenheit, it's going to be drier and brighter tomorrow. B B C Radio Nottingham News, it's five minutes past two.. Hello and welcome to Afternoon Special this Tuesday afternoon, linking the East Midlands. And with it being Tuesday it means that we've our missing persons feature, where are you now, round about three thirty today, so if you've lost touch with a friend, relative or neighbour we could find them for you if they're still in the East Midlands. Call us on if you'd like to be included in where are you now, the feature at three thirty. On the hour the news and weather and we'd like to hear from you this afternoon. If you'd like to have a chat on the air call us on . You have to dial the code O six O two if you're ringing from outside the Nottingham area. Got music throughout the programme and a musical competition to start. It's our music quiz, a question is asked about the record, you answer the question, win a prize. And the question about last week's postal competition was, what's Christmassy about this? Last week's postal competition, what's Christmassy about that? Well the answer was holly, because it was Buddy Holly. So what's Christmassy about that? Holly. Now some winners coming up. Holly, holly. Er Mr and Mrs , Road, Evington, you're a winner. Er Mrs Joan of Street, Belper, a winner. Peter , Cottage,sp at er near Buxton. And one more coming up, let's take it from the bottom of the pile, literally, and it turns out to be Mrs Diane , Street, Market Harborough. There y are. Those are the winners. All said, holly. That was what was Christmassy about that record. Now the question about this record is, tell me another singer with the same name. Don't normally get two singers with the same name but tell me another singer with the same name. I don't want to know the name of this singer, I want to know the name of the other singer with the same name. C all will be revealed very shortly. Call us on please. Now this one's a bit strange. I do not want the name of that singer, but I want the name of a singer with the same name. If you got the answer right you'll know what I mean. John of Saxilby. Hello Dennis. What's the name of the singer with the same name but not the name of that singer? Donovan? That's it. Say no more than that and that wins you a prize. Can you call anywhere? Er Lincoln. Great, thanks a lot John. Okay. Bye. Bye. Donovan. Yes. Robert of . What were you gonna say? Donovan. Why? Dunno just said it. Well what was the name of that singer? Pardon? What was the name of th s of that singer? What, Jason Donovan? Jason Donovan that's right. That'll win you a prize. Oh thanks . Can you call anywhere? Pardon? Can you call anywhere? Derby. Derby. Right we'll have it ready for you. Oh thanks. Bye. Tarrah. Yes Jason Donovan, the name of the same singer, it was Donovan but er if you'd have said Jason Donovan yo of course you'd have been incorrect. Anyway right that's how we play it, that's how we play it. Bit weird. What sort of erm what yeah what pet is involved here? What pet is involved here? Call us on ple Just want the name of the pet involved in that record, that's all I want the name of the pet involved in that record. And now on the line from Lutterworth, Pauline . Hello Pauline. Hello. name of the pet. Dog. That's it. Erm a prize for you. Can you call anywhere? Er no. we'll we'll send it you. We've Erm got your address have we? Erm yes thanks Dennis. Okay. Erm Dennis What love? Er my sister won erm whatever you're sending, last week. Oh yeah? Erm and she ain't received it yet. Yeah. Eh? She's not received No er we've been told that Radio Leicester, our colleagues here at Radio Leicester tell us that there's a bit of a delay in sending out C Ds. Oh right. Only a bit of a delay so Oh okay. But but well they've got all the names and everything and they'll be with you shortly. Right. Okay love ? Good of ya. Okay. Thanks a lot Dennis. Bye. Bye. Now Raymond of Derby. Hello. What we you gonna say? I thought it was a dragon. Why did you think it was a dragon? It was just the way the music was. Oh no. Oh so you don't know why it was dog? I don't, no. Because it was the do Bonzo Dog Doodah Band. Yeah. Never mind. Raymond thanks for trying. Okay. Bye. Bye. Now ooh it's the postal isn't it already? Yes the postal. What sort of brass is involved here? What sort of brass is involved here? Answers on a postcard to the music quiz and whichever town is nearest you, Derby, Leicester, Lincoln or Nottingham. That's where you send the postcard to be here by Tuesday of next week and the question is, what sort of brass is involved here? Now the question is, what sort of brass is involved in that record? Postcards to the music quiz Derby, Leicester, Lincoln or Nottingham, whichever is closest to you. Postcards to be here by Tuesday of next week. Now let's take some calls and don't forget our feature at three thirty, our all important feature, I think it's the most important of the week don't you? Where are you now, the missing persons feature. Finding long lost friends, relatives and neighbours throughout the East Midlands. I think that's pretty important actually. Erm seems to be. Anyway, give us a ring on if you want to go on where are you now, if you've lost touch with someone we'll try and find 'em, especially if they're in the East Midlands. And you can give us a ring on that number if you'd like to have a chat on the air this afternoon about anything at all. Now we don't do wanted items or giveaways or anything like that, you know we don't do that on the programme, that's for other programmes. So wanted a port er wanted a portable manual typewriter wanted in the Grantham area, lady is willing to pay, phone . Wanted portable manual typewriter, wanted in Grantham, willing to pay, phone ,. If you don't get these numbers you can always ring us on which is our administration number. That sound posher than saying it's the phone-in number. Here's a giveaway, er or no wait a minute, it isn't a giveaway cos they want a donation for children in need. It's a voucher with a three day mini-cruise for two people sharing from Harwich to Hamburg or Harwich to Esbjerg to be used weekdays, valid until the twentieth of December and it's worth a hundred and sixty quid. Meals not included. Anyway if you wanna give a donation to children in need for that, dial . I'll read it again cos it's quite complex innit? It's got me puzzled anyway. Erm a donation for children in need asked. This is a voucher worth a hundred and sixty pounds with for a three day mini-cruise for two people sharing from Harwich to Hamburg or Harwich to Esbjerg to be used weekdays, until the twentieth of December. If you're interested, meals are not included, but if you're interested dial . Now we won't do any more of those. . At School in Lane Derby, there is cable-laying going on in Street, Lane and Street. This is causing traffic buildup and warning to parents when picking up children, be very careful. So if you're picking up children from the Primary School in Lane Derby, there's cable-laying going on in Street, Lane and Street. This is causing traffic buildup so it's a warning, be careful. Erm I've had a lovely letter from from George. And George is erm the district governor for Rotary, for the Alfreton area. And the thing is they're doing a huge charity dance, the Rotary Club of Alfreton, on Friday this week, the twelfth. Eight P M till midnight, food available, late bar er there's the big band sound of the Alfreton dance orchestra and special guest is Phil , the resident organist a the Tower Ballroom Blackpool. Now the tickets are four quid each, you can get 'em on the door, but if you'd like two tickets, phone us on , we'll send 'em by first class post, we need your postcode, give us a ring now, if you'd like two tickets for the grand charity dance, modern, old-time and sequence featuring Phil , resident organist at the Tower Ballroom Blackpool. And the big band sound of the Alfreton dance orchestra, it's all happening at the Leisure Centre Alfreton this Friday, eight till twelve, tickets are four quid, you can get 'em on the door, all organized by Rotary. But call us if you'd like two tickets. . Una of Mansfield. H hello. Hello. Hello. Hello. Is that Dennis? Yes hello. Hello Dennis, my name's Una . Yes. Now I work as a care assistant in a nursing home at Bilsthorpe, nursing home. Th Bilsthorpe near Mansfield? Yes. Yes. And we are desperate to have a piano. Why? Well we do lots of activities with our residents and they love sing- alongs but unfortunately we haven't our own piano. Have you never had one? No. Well yo they sa you kn what they say? What you've never had you'll never miss. But we are missing it. Are you? We've got a nurse, er a trained nurse, er she does play the piano and she's quite willing to play for us if only we can get a piano donated. Well I mean you see Erm lo I've got this big problem really about people like you coming on asking for pianos. Very often What's the matter? Why? Who's tickling you? Nobody. Oh. It sounds like you wish they were. Mm. No I've got this big problem you see because very often pianos are at the centre of orgies. Now if you have an orgy there I could get the blame for this. Oh. Do you have many orgies there? Well Don't put it to the customers, don't put it to your clients cos they'll say we want one. Well th they might well do. Yes. But you know I mean our oldest resident is a hundred and two. Makes no difference love. You know so he h Never, never might well enjoy a good rubdown and a massage. I beg your pardon? But I d I'm not quite sure if orgy . Oh hang on hang on. Oh oh my hair's standing up at the back of my neck. I only y well you see the Romans did have a word you know they had a phrase, have you heard about that Roman phrase? No I've not You're never I'm sure you'll tell me. You're never too old for an orgy. Now Oh. They had that as a phrase, that was a phrase in Roman times. Mm. And they should know. Oh. So I'm a bit worried ab cos pianos can you know i th they sort of, it's the it's the constant beat of the piano. Right. It can it can sort of engender orgies. Yeah. Ah but you don't want an orgy there do you? Oh I don't know Oh I could ask. think of the local, think of the and what it would say if you had an orgy. Oh Well I I bet we'd make front page wouldn't we? You would make front page of the . Yeah we would. You would indeed. Yeah yeah. I don't mean orgy love, are you sure you want a piano? Yes we definitely ne need a piano. Now the all important thing about a piano is, apart from the fact that it t can be at the centre of an orgy, the important thing is that are you able to collect it? Well yes we could. Cos you know it takes t at least eighteen strong men or twenty four weak women? You know that ? Erm well I think you'd have to make do with twenty four strong care assistants. Okay alright then. Well we'll try eh? Oh that would lovely because And you our party's we've arranged our Christmas party for our residents for the nineteenth of This is before you've got the December. this is before you've got the piano. Well we're still having a party anyway, but a piano would be a a big help. If someone, some nice kind person would donate one for us. Alright. It would be great. From anywhere? From anywhere. From anywhere alright Anywhere. we'll see if we can get you a piano and if Okay. anybody calls we'll give you a ring. Yeah. Alright love? Okay then . . Thank you very much. Eh listen you said your oldest is er a hundred and two? Yes Mr our Albert. How lovely. Yes he's a hundred and two and he's lovely. What about your youngest? Our youngest? Well I think our youngest ooh well into their sixties. Are they? Yeah. And we we do try to keep them busy and we have monthly parties and erm Parties? occupa oh yes I told ya. oh yes You're halfway there alre you're halfway there already. Yes You're halfway there. Ooh. Do you want to buy some raffle tickets Dennis? What for the next orgy? No. yes if you like. Ooh dear, I knew we shouldn't have done this. Pound for five. Pound for five? Yeah we'll let you have ten pounds' worth. . Yeah. That's very generous. Very generous, I haven't had such a good offer for a long time. How long have you been there at the nursing home? I've been there six months now. Have you? Yeah. Enjoy it? I love it. What did you do before? Well I've done a bit of all sorts rea Mainly I looked after my dad while he was ill. Yeah. Erm but then I lost my dad so Yeah I went to do what I thought I could do the best. Yeah. Which was look after everybody else. And you enjoy it? I love it yes. So who's gonna to look after you? Me? Yeah. Well I've got two strong daughters so I suppose they'll hold me up when I'm when I'm you know sort of decrepit and ready. Oh you're gonna be decrepit and ready are you ? some days I feel it now Dennis . Probably, probably before probably at the Christmas party. Ye well yes we'll be pretty tired because it's a full day. Mm. It's two thirty till six, everything going on So listen for the children that come and everything. what's what's happening at the nursing home on Christmas Day, do you know yet? Well we're not quite sure yet. We we've sort of planned things for every day, for the week leading up to Christmas Yeah. erm it's just It sounds like everybody's gonna be exhausted at your place. Well it's good fun, you'll have to join us, you'll have to come through and have a look. I see whereabouts of Hilda , last heard of in nineteen sixty nine, used to keep used to keep erm newsagent's shop in Ravenshead. A gentleman in Birmingham would like to make contact with an ex-member of the R A F who he served with, his name is Dennis , and it was known that he lived in West Bridgeford Nottingham. So whatever happened to Dennis of West Bridgeford Nottingham? Ex R A F. Call us on please. A listener would like to hear from any ex-pupils of School Worksop who were in the fifth year between nineteen sixty seven and nineteen sixty eight, to join in a celebration marking the success of one its pupils. Alright? Any ex-pupils of School Worksop, who were in the fifth year between nineteen sixty seven and nineteen sixty eight, to join in a celebration marking the success of one its pupils. I wonder what they've done? And we'd like to find Paddy who served in the R A F police unit at R A F Hunnington in Suffolk during nineteen fifty eight to nineteen sixty. Paddy , he's of Irish descent, he lives in the Newark area and if it's h found, if he's found it's hoped that Paddy can be included in a reunion. Paddy who lived in the Newark area. We're looking for Sandra who lived in the village of Headon near Retford. She used to work in a wool shop in Retford called Wool Shop. Sandra had a brother called Rodney and a sister named Sharon . It's believed that Sandra moved to either Newark or Leicester. Anybody know Sandra ? Came from Headon near Retford, worked in a wool shop in Retford called Wool Shop and Sandra had a brother called Rodney and a sister named Sharon . Sandra could have moved to either Newark or Leicester. Call us if you know her,. Now we're looking for Debbie and Tony. Dominic would like to get in touch with a couple he met on holiday in August at Innerlaken in Switzerland, who come from Derby. They're Debbie and Tony of Derby. Debbie and Tony. But unfortunately their surname cannot be remembered. Debbie who's blond, thirty eight years old, has two children a boy and a girl, works with the deaf in Derby. Tony er his mother lives with them. The couple Debbie and Tony o drove a blue Sierra and during the holiday it was their anniversary and Debbie's birthday. So anybody know of the whereabouts of Debbie and Tony who live we think where was it? In the Derby area? In the Derby area. Call us please. Now let's go to the phones. On the line from Calverton we've got Grenville . Who're you looking for Grenville? Hello Dennis. Er I'll try and take my time, I stammer a bit Dennis a you know. Er I'm l That's okay. I'm look looki looking for Hi Hilda . Hilda ? Is that is that her maiden name? That's her maiden name, well it's abo f about forty nine fifty years ago since I've seen her. And where did she live? Well she li liv on Estate, er on Estate,. Nottingham? Avenue I think it was . Yeah. Wha what work did she do? Well she worked at Brewery I think she did labelling you know in in department . Do you know if she got married? N no I don er it's quite a long st we it's quite a long story . Well she go Hilda got a baby boy about eighteen month old when I knew her like you know, and er she lived by I think it was I think it was you know and er what happened to her I be I think she had to go in a home or er you see and er baby boy was adopted like, the baby boy that's about all I know about her that's about all. alright, let's try for Hilda . And Hilda was her maiden name, last seen forty nine years ago, she lived on Estate,, Nottingham and she worked as a labeller in the bottle department of Brewery. Hilda . That's right. We'll try and find her. If we do Granville, we'll give you a call. thanks very much Dennis. Thank you. Okay Dennis thank you Bye bye. Thank you very much. if you know the whereabouts of Hilda . We have found, one of the letters. We've found Sandra er wh who was in Retford at the Wool Shop, we've found Sandra . Angela of Mapperley. Who're you looking for? Hello. Angela . Angela of Mapperley. Hello Angela . No Angela ? No? Right go onto the next customer. Roy of . Roy . Roy . Hello Roy . No Roy . Oh dear. I wonder if anything's happened to our telephones? Er nobody on at all. Mm Kathleen Kathleen from Bath. Kathleen. Yes. Who are you looking for? I'm looking for my cousin. Tell me her name. Her name is Joyce, her christian name, and her maiden name was . Do you know did she get married? Well I presume she did. How long is it since you saw her? Oh it must be fifty years since I've seen her. And where did she live? She lived in Ward End in Birmingham. But she is now in the Leicester area. Erm some ab eight weeks ago she was in Cheltenham where I used to live, trying to find me. And the person she contacted didn't know my address. So we're sort of both playing two sides against the middle. Er i she was in the Cheltenh Do you know what she does for a living? I have a feeling, well I should think she's probably retired. I should think she was born about nineteen thirty. Erm I think she was a teacher, she's got a brother Jim who was a housemaster at School in Suffolk, last I heard of him, I saw him mm probably in the nineteen f fifties I should think. So it's Joyce , that's her maiden name, last seen fifty years ago, used to live in Birmingham but now lives in Leicester Yes. and she was a teacher. I think . Joyce and she's got a brother Jim . Yeah. Alright. Anybody calls we'll ring you. Okay lovely. Thank you Kathleen. Okay bye . Bye. i you know the whereabouts of Joyce . That's her maiden name, she may have got married and changed that name of course, she was a teacher, lived in the Leicester area. Now I think we can try, is it Angela ? Or Roy ? Ida of Mansfield. Mark Mark Markfield sorry. Ida. Yes. Who're you looking for? I'm looking for a school friend, her name is Mary . Is that her maiden name? Yes. Er did she get married? I don't know. Last seen when? I've never seen her since we left school about nineteen forty eight. Where did she live? She lived in er Road, Oadby. Er what does she do for a living? I don't know. Can't tell ya. Went to School together. You know like school friends Mm. but I haven't seen her since we left school in nineteen forty eight. Can you give us any more information? Well I did hear, I don't know if it w if it's true, that she was er what you call a lollipop lady. Whereabouts? In Oadby. That a that's all I know. recently? Yes I think so. So Mary but that's her maiden name, Yes. it's nineteen forty eight, so she may well have married and changed her name. That's right. Lived on Road, Oadby and may have been a lady a lollipop lady in the Oadby area. Yes,she used to live with her mum and dad and she ha I know she had a sister but I don't know if her sister name was Betty. But where she used to live the houses have been pulled down ooh a few years ago and it's all shops now. Alright, we'll try and find Mary for you and if we do we'll give you a call Ida. Yes thank you very much . Thanks love bye. Bye bye. , the number to ring if you know the whereabouts of Mi Mary , her maiden name, last seen in nineteen forty eight, she may have married and changed her name. May have been a lollipop lady in Oadby. Call us if you know anything, please. Sybil of Northampton. Yes. Who're you looking for? I'm looking for my two cousins. Names? Names, Margaret and Joan, their si single name was but Do you know I don't know their married names. And did they both get married? Yes they both got married. Er last seen how long ago? Oh about fifty years ago. Living where? In South Wigston Leicestershire. Do you know what jobs Margaret and Joan had? No. Margaret was in the Air Force for some years but I couldn't say what they did for work. So you've no idea where they could be now? No idea. Er they've always lived in South Wigston, all their life. So Margaret and Joan That's their cousins and that's their maiden names , that's their maiden name. last seen fifty years ago, lived in South Wigston Yes. and Margaret was in the R A F during the war, Yes. and Margaret and Joan are both married so they've both changed their names. Yes. Did they have any brothers? No. Alright. We'll try and find Margaret and Joan , if we do we'll give you a ring. Thank you very much indeed. Thanks bye . Thank you, bye . Bye Sybil. the number to ring there. Reg of Newark, who are you looking Dennis who are you looking for? Er the descendants of John and Jane . They lived er at the turn of the century or just before in the Blankley Bath area which is round Methringham. The family w was made up of sons John, Thomas, William and Joseph and the girls were Mary and Harriet. Harriet married a William who was a gamekeeper. we're talking about around the turn of the century ? Century yes. Er John actually of the John and Jane, he died in nineteen O three aged seventy six, he was buried at . Erm, mm. So y descendants of John and Jane ? Yes. Who lived at Blankley Bath near Methringham? That's right. They had how many children? They had four boys, John, Thomas, William and Joseph and two girls, Mary and Harriet. Harriet married er William who was a gamekeeper. Are you in touch with any of them? Er not from that side of the family, no. Alright, well we'll try and get you some information and if we do we'll give you a ring. Well that's very kind of you. Thank you . Thank you Reg. Goodbye. So descendants of John and Jane , er John Wilson died in nineteen hundred and three, at age seventy six, so we're talking about the turn of the century. They lived at Blankley Bath near Methringham and they had six children, John, Thomas, William, Joseph, Mary and Harriet . Harriet married William a gamekeeper. And there the information ends, can you help fill in some details with John and Jane who lived at Blankley Bath near Methringham, turn of the century? Give us a call please. Christine of . Hello. Who are you looking for? I'm looking for a work friend. Erm her name was Freddy, so I presume her name was Frederica and we worked in the lace market in nineteen sixty five mhm at a place called . Where did Freddy live? I think maybe erm Carlton way. I'm not sure. Did was she married? No she was we were just teenagers, we were seventeen then. You don't know if Freddy got married? No. But she had long red hair and she was just a work friend. So Freddy Yeah. er she was last seen nineteen sixty five working in the lace market in Nottingham at Yeah. and she had long red hair. Yes and she she had er a tartan skirt and she swapped it with me for a an Indian blue dress. Alright we'll try and find Freddy for you. It's a bit er you know Yeah bit sparse in information but we'll try Yes. But my name was Christine then. Christine . Yeah. Alright we'll try and find Freddy. Okay. Thank you. Bye. So we're looking for ah we've found Mary , last seen in nineteen forty eight at Oadby. We've found Mary . Now there is a difficult one. We're looking for Freddy, and that's all we've got. Freddy, young lady, last seen nineteen sixty five working in the lace market in Nottingham at , think she lived nearby at Carlton, Nottingham and had long red hair did Freddy. Where are you now? the number to ring. Betty of Evington. Who are you looking for? Hello. I'm looking for a friend of mine Hazel was her maiden name. You know her er married name? And she married er a man named , Mr , I c don't know his christian name, and he was a warder at the Leicester prison. And then he was called up er in the Air Force in nineteen forty. She had a baby we she was expecting a baby and we called it P J,anyw and she said it was going to be Peter John and th anyway when it arrived it was a Pamela Jane . Now I know she lives in the Nottingham area now although she's been widowed quite a few years. And I would like to get in touch with her again. So Mrs Hazel last seen when ? Mrs Hazel yes. Last seen when? Er in nineteen forty. And where did she actually live then? She lived on Road South. Leicester? Leicester. Mhm. And you think she's in Nottingham now? Yes I heard she'd gone to the Nottingham area. Where did she li work? Pardon? Where did she work? She worked at on the North Bridge in Leicester . In in Leicester. Do you know how many children she's got? Well I understood she had two. Mm. And one of one them I know she had one. One of 'em is Pamela Jane. Well sh yes. er . Okay, we're looking for Mrs Hazel . Yes. Last seen in the last war, nineteen forty, she lived on the Road South in South Leicester. Yes. And her husband was a warder at Leicester prison but he's died. Yes. And Hazel worked at on Yes. the North Bridge Yes. and she's got some children including Pamela Jane. Yes. Pa Mrs Hazel ? Yes. We'll try and find her and we'll ring you if Thank you very much. we do. Thank you. Thank you Betty. Bye bye. Mrs Hazel . Er was at Leicester, might now live in Nottingham. Call us please if you know her whereabouts. Hazel of South. Hello. B Boston. Hello. Hazel who are you looking for? Er Ken . Ken , last seen when? Nineteen eighty two. And where did he live then? In the Sleaford area. What did he work for a living? Er senior nursing officer at Hospital Holbeach which of course is now closed. Was Kenneth married? Er he was but er his wife is deceased erm but I understand he has remarried recently. And has he any children? Er yes, one son Ian Mark and Ian will be about twenty. Er you think Kenneth will now be retired? Yes he has retired. So Kenneth , last seen nineteen eighty two, lived at the Sleaford area, a retired nursing senior officer at Hospital Holbeach, he's married he's remarried er and he's got a son Ian Mark . Yes. We'll try and find him, if we do, give you a ring. Thank you very much. Thanks Hazel. Thank you, bye. N the number to ring if you can help Hazel out. Hazel of er Boston looking for Kenneth . Kenneth , last seen nineteen eighty two, lived in the Sleaford area, a retired senior nursing officer at Hospital Holbeach, er m may have married for a second time, Kenneth he's got a son Ian Mark . Give us a call if you know him, please. Malcolm of Mansfield Woodhouse. Hello Dennis. Who are you looking for? Well I'm looking for a very good friend of mine er who I served in the army with called Tony . Last seen when? Well it would be round nineteen seventy three seventy four. And where did he live at that time? Er he was from Gedling but we lived together in the army barracks at that particular time. What mob were you in? Er the King's Troop, Royal Horse Artillery. Oh them? Yes. Ah. What rank were you? Sorry? I was a gunner, I'd only been in er Oh I see. a couple of years Wha er Tony er did he have any brothers or sisters? Well to be quite honest I can't honestly remember. I was the best man at his wedding. Ah he got married? Yes he did and it was in Gedling I believe. I what was his wife's name? Jean. But I can't remember the second name. Do you know if they had any children? Not at that time, they didn't no. Do you know if er what er Tony er civilian occupation was? No I haven't a clue. I don't know if he left the King's Troop and went into the First er Regiment Royal Artillery, but erm I went to Germany and of course we just lost contact. So it's Tony , last Tony last seen nineteen seventy three seventy four, lived in Gedling Nottingham got Yeah. married to Jean, Jean , Yeah. er and he was in the King's Troop Royal Horse Artillery Yeah he could've er got out of that, but he lived in Gedling Nottingham. Yes he did yeah. Now one of the names which would come straight to his head was my nickname which was Schultz. Yes. But Tony isn't listening. No that's right . He he's not listening at the moment. But a friend of his is. And that's why we need as much information about Tony so that his friend will recognize him, ring through and then you'll be in touch him. Yeah. But Tony isn't listening to this programme at this moment. Right. Okay? But er we'll try and get him Malcolm and if we do, we'll give you a call. How long is it since you were called Schultz? Er well when I left in nineteen seventy six. It finished? Sorry? It finished then that nickname? Yes. Yeah always does. Alright Malc we'll we'll give you a ring if we find Tony . Lovely. Bye. Thank you very much, bye. Tony . A Oh , are you there, Malcolm? Come back to me Malcolm. Come back to me Malcolm. Hello. We've found him. You haven't. We have. As quick as that? Yeah. He's gonna ring you back straight away. Lovely. Put your phone down and he's gonna ring you back. Thanks very much. Bye. That's a good 'un innit? Found him, straight away, Tony . Er last seen in the King's Troop Royal Artillery, Royal Horse Artillery, came from Gedling Nottingham. Fred of . Hello Dennis. Who are you looking for? I'm looking for my cousin, a Dolly . She used to live at Swindon, er sorry Swinford. Swinford Leicester? Leicestershire yes. Yeah. Now Was she is that her maiden name? Er yes, she was only a young girl when I first kne when I How mu how long is it how long is it? Er just before the war when I saw her last. So nineteen thirties? Er thirty nine, thirty eight thirty nine. Nineteen thirty nine, right . Dolly , er was Dolly her real name? Er I'm not certain, Dorothy I think it was but she Oh always used to be known as Dolly. Dolly Yeah. and that was her maiden name? Do you know if she got married? I've no ideas. Wh where did she live? She us Swinford Leicester. Swinford in Leicestershire, yes. Do you know what she did for a living? No she was still at school. Oh. Did Er she have any brothers or sisters? Er no. No er er her dad used to work at at Rugby, and I er saw him ooh nineteen forty seven I think. Just after the war. Yeah. Er he used to work at at Ru at er Rugby. So Dolly Yeah. that's her maiden name, Dolly Yeah. lived at Swinford Leicester, Yes. her father worked at er at Rugby. Yes. And I've got an idea, er something keeps on cropping up in my mind whether she moved there or not I don't know, but er those t two villages keep on recurring in my Alright alright. Well we'll try and find Dolly for you. Yes right. Okay Fred. Okay Dennis. Bye. Bye. the number to ring if you know the whereabouts of Dolly , that's her maiden name, last seen nineteen thirty nine, lived at Swinford Leicester, maybe in a village n in Leicester near Swinsford now. Dolly , that's her maiden name, she may have married and changed her mind. Would Mrs Joan of Drive, Alveston Derby replace your receiver from your daughter, please. Mrs Jo Mrs Jan . Mrs Jan , Drive, Alveston Derby please replace your receiver from your daughter. Now who've we got? We got Angela of Mapperley. Angela. Hello. Who are you looking for? Erm Kitty . Kitty . Last seen when? Erm nineteen eighty four. Where did she live then? Er Court Green, Nottingham. Yeah. What did Kitty do for a living? I don't know. Er was she married? No. Not married? No. Any children? Yes. Er and Kitty . Can you give us any more information at all? No that's all I know. No. Kitty 's her maiden name? Yes. Kitty , last seen nineteen eighty four and Kitty lived at Court,Green, Nottingham. Yes. How old will she be roughly? Er late fifties. Late fifties. Yes. Kitty in her late fifties, Kitty who lived at Court,Green, Nottingham. And that's all we got innit? Yes it is. Alright. Okay? Anybody calls we'll ring you Angela Thank you. Bye love. Bye. Kitty . Where are you now? the number to ring. Roy of Old Clipston. Who are you looking for? Hello Dennis, hey I you got through er last time, few minutes ago cut me off. Well no I the wrong button? I didn't. No what happened then? Anyway come on we haven't got much time. Aye. Er Ernest . Ernest . He and I we we worked together on the electrical staff at colliery. Nineteen or late thirties Is that when you last saw him? No the early thirties. You saw him in the early thirties? Yes that was the last time. Right and where did Ernest live? He used to live er Road area at Mansfield. Yeah. Somewhere up Road. Was he married? I don't know. He had a motorcycle, a lovely . But you don't know if he was married? I don't know, I would imagine he would be. Er you never met his wife? Has he got No. any children? No you don't know. I don't know, don't know Dennis. Any brothers or sisters? Couldn't tell you. I don't think he had but I'm not certain about that, I don't think so So it's er he never spoke of them. Ernest Ernest who worked at er he worked at Colliery? Yes ha he and I were both on the electrical staff, late twenties, early thirties. And that's all the information? That's all I've got. Can I give my telephone number? Mm, yes a bit thin on information though Roy. Pardon? A bit thin on information . I know it is. We you see we were both single at that time. Alright. So Ernest Yes. who lived in Road, Mansfield, In that area. nineteen thirty nine, he worked at Colliery and he had a motorcycle. Yes. What's your phone number? Ring you on , thank you Roy. Ah thanks a lot Dennis. Bye. Bye. Nottingham er the number to ring, but there if you know the whereabouts of Ernest who was at Road, Mansfield, nineteen thirty nine, give a ring on . We've found Margaret and John from fifty years ago, who lived in Wigston. The cous cousins Margaret and Joan have been found and I told you we found Tony while we were still on with Malcolm who was looking for him. We that's where are you now, the number to ring if you know the whereabouts of anyone we were looking for. We go to the news with the Munich Philharmonic Orchestra Pop Section and money, money, money. You're listening to the county's favourite radio station, B B C Radio Nottingham, it's four o'clock. Radio Nottingham News with Andy . Three coal mines in Yorkshire which employ fifteen hundred people between them are to have their futures reviewed with the intention of closing them down. says a fall in coal consumption at power stations means their future is very bleak. Two of the mines, and are operating at a loss. The third produces coal cheaply but most of its output is being stockpiled. The National Union of Mineworkers says it had expected the news but Trevor of the pit deputies' union NACODS had this message for miners. It does not matter what says here today, you have a job at this moment in time, I'm asking them to stay in the pits and fight for the right to work those pits. They're profitable pits and they're well worth keeping open. A Nottingham police inspector has been telling an inquest about the last time he saw his teenage daughter alive. The body of nineteen year old secretary Helen was found in the grounds of a derelict house on Road in Sherwood last Wednesday. She'd died from multiple stab wounds to the chest. Rob reports. Police inspector Alex from Mapperley said he last saw Helen at bedtime on the second of November. When she failed to return from work the next day he called the police. And colleagues told him a body matching his daughter's description had already been found. The Nottinghamshire coroner Dr Nigel adjourned the inquest pending the outcome of criminal proceedings. Twenty eight year old Sean from Arnold has appeared before Nottingham magistrates charged with murder, and has been remanded in custody. The jury at the James murder trial has heard evidence from a Home Office pathologist about the injuries that led to James's death. Two eleven year old boys deny abduction and murder. Adam reports. The Home Office pathologist, Dr Alan spoke of forty two injuries to James's body. He said they were consistent with a series of heavy blows by heavy objects and kicks. Earlier the court had been shown a quantity of bricks and stones some of which were said to be bloodstained, and a heavy iron bar. All had been found at the scene of the crime. The courtroom fell silent as Dr gave his evidence. It was shocking testimony and the jury, people in the public gallery and reporters were clearly shaken. The case continues. Rescue workers who helped in the Bilsthorpe disaster have been presented with a plaque bought by the widow of one of the men who died. Peter was crushed in the rockfall at the colliery on August the eighteenth. Around five hundred pounds was given to his wife Pam at his funeral. She's used some of that money to buy plaques for the three mine rescue teams who helped in the operation. Superintendent Jim from Mansfield mines rescue service says it's a touching gesture. It's what the job's all about er and they are professionals and this is the work they're trained for. But little things like this mean a an awful lot to them. Erm it's what it's all about basically. Cos presumably they don't expect anything like this, they're just doing their work. They don't. And that's what makes it even nicer because er it's recognition from outside of of , the people that pay their wages, of the job they're doing and er they're very grateful for it. The editor of the who published photographs of the Princess of Wales exercising at a gym has described himself and the man who took the photographs as ratbags. David was speaking to an Australian radio station shortly before lawyers acting for the Princess issued writs against and the gym owner. I think it was a particularly sneaky trick frankly. Er an and the the bloke who did it erm has got to go down as one of the ratbags of the year. I don't exclude myself from myself, but I I I'd give him a nine and I I'd come in at a seven I think. Workers at one of main car plants, Ellesmere Port in Cheshire, have voted narrowly in favour of an all out strike over pay. A union spokesman said a two and a half per cent pay offer failed to reflect the record profits made by and the huge improvements in productivity at the plant. Contempt writs have been served against the Home Secretary and his predecessor Kenneth Clarke for trying to deport the legal guardian of six Nottingham children who were prohibited from leaving the country. has been looking after her younger brothers and sisters since they were made wards of court when their parents were sent back to India. And police in Jersey are examining what they believe may be the remains of Nicholas and Elizabeth who are believed to have been murdered on the island six years ago. The couple's sons, Roderick and Mark have been accused of their murders. Yesterday Roderick, a former army officer who was flown back to Jersey at the weekend after fighting extradition from Gibraltar, went with police to an area where it's thought the bodies had been buried. And the weather, tonight starting cloudy, becoming drier later on tomorrow. Radio Nottingham news, it's five past four. Great Shirley Bassey and Kiss Me Honey Honey Kiss Me. Did you know that she started her career in ? At the Olympia, she appeared at the Olympia. In er in variety. Many many years ago did Shirley Bassey. Told me about it once she did. Never been on the programme though. We carry on through till four thirty with the calls and if you'd like to take part in our phone-in, the number to ring is . At four thirty John's here. Oh yes my old beauty, it's all getting back to normal now. About as normal as could be with me. My name's John and I'm here with the teatime show this afternoon, just after Dennis, at half past four. And Paul is gonna be on. No relation and it's not the fella who's been to Memphis Tennessee to see Graceland either. He's the chief executive of the one of the biggest advertising agencies in the country, he's coming in to talk about the thirty something phenomena here in the nineties now. And also joining us poet Michael with a bit of poetry as well. It's all to come on the teatime show this afternoon. Cor he's in the mood int he. John with teatime. Invitation you can't refuse there. That's at four thirty on. Calls through till then if you'd like to have a chat. Martin of Carlton. Hello. Hello. Yes Martin. Yeah. Er what is right erm it's er like a special word like for erm your okay? Er what it is, I'm a music writer right? Yeah. Okay and erm when Dennis was on okay about a week ago Mm. right erm he mentioned something about erm my friend Paul, okay he had a conversation about when my dog goes in my garden an and he does a doggy-do. Yeah. Okay. Now apparently what happened is I went up to him and said look I might have to do something with it. So I did actually, I t actually turned it into a ro er song you see. You've turned I turn the doggy-do song about the dog Yeah. Into a song. You've turned doggy-do into a song? That's right, I've actually erm what it is, I write music okay? Using the Amiga Five Hundred okay, er stripped it down, I sampled it and I actually made a song, a complete song, and it's finished okay? Also I done a a twelve inch version Based on the call that we had onto the programme? Yes, about the doggy-do. Remember, my dog goes in your garden. Yeah. I did a a complete song and it's finished, right and I was thinking of actually erm seeing my mate in London who'd get it cut on vinyl record. And make a commercial record? Yeah. So I do I get a percentage? Of course. If you er give me your permission. We Well can you sing it to us? Er well I can't really sing it to you, cos it's on tape at the moment. But it's erm the only way to do it is erm to bring the tape in to your erm into Nottingham station itself, you know the er radio station . We well can't you sort of give us an idea of what it's about, the words and things you know and It's erm it's about well you could There's no rude words in it are there? Oh no no no. No there's no rude words in it at all. I mean do you think it'll be a top ten hit? I dunno it might be. It's er it's funny. It's very very funny because I actually laughed about it when I listened to it on tape first of all and I felt well maybe And have you, who's sung it, you? No it's er see see the thing it's the song right. It's like talking. You're talking and Paul's talking and I actually did something with it, I actually turned it into a song. With my erm instrument playing at the background. Really? Yes, its a bit like rapping yeah. We whose voice is it? Well there's Dennis's voice and Paul's voice. Is it? Yes. And ha you got a recording of it there? No. Can we not hear a little bit of it now? Well no because what I did I actually gave a copy to er to Paul okay, this is er ja erm . Yeah. Okay, now it's got two versions, it's got the first version which is a short version okay? Yeah. It's er the title song is er and the second version which is a remix version which I've done, which I was working on last night. Now the song took five hours to do Yeah. Okay a and erm Bu but I mean if you use if you use the voices that you heard,i it wasn't in rhyme or anything. I know but it's the way I did it. And y y you will understand as soon as you hear it. It's it's it's really unbelievable. Is it? Yeah, incredible cos a lot of people said already, like they've heard it and they think it's amazing. You know. And no only that it's you've got w one or the Twelve Hundred , it's four o'clock. theWh Wh what's the Amiga Five Hundred? It's the erm oh what it is right it's a computer. P C personal computer yeah. A musical computer. Well it's not just a music computer it's, everyone uses a So what's what's your occupation Martin, are you a songwriter? Erm well not as such as a songwriter, I mean I do that yes but I'm my occupation I'm a self-employed window cleaner. but Martin you can't do a song about doggy-dos. Can you? Course you can. I've done one. so can I hear it? You can hear it yeah, but the only way to hear it Yeah. is for me to bring it in. Have you got it on a reel to reel tape? Yes. I'd like to hear it. Yeah. Now listen you got erm a have ya? I don't know wha but I'm not technically minded, I don't know what we've got here . Well erm a Walkman what people carry around? I don't think we've got one of them. Or or erm what they call those music things you know like erm it's got a cassette, tape cassette and a radio and you know people What, hi-fi thing? Yeah that's right and you put a tape in don't you? Well I think yes I think we can play cassettes I think. That's good because I'll bring you a copy in Yes. Okay now if you think it's good, funny Mm, yeah. okay, I'll contact my mate in London Yeah. okay and they'll get it cut onto vinyl. And we could make a number one. Yeah, who knows? Because Yeah. its a and partly right it was done before. But not the same thing what I'm doing you see. Erm two guys it was in the Amiga format, two guys right Yeah. actually made it in the charts using two Amigas but I'm only using the one m one Amiga. Mm. Well this is all you know I I don't understand anything about computers and things. And normally if I get near a computer it goes wrong. Computers hate me. Well sometimes they hate me too, you get a virus on it you know and it crashes doesn't it? Does it? I don't know, I don't know. And I don't know anything technical at all I mean just, I just turn a knob here and open the microphone and that's it you know. Yeah. Alright well I'll like to hear it. When you gonna bri when can you bring it in? Well I can bring it in erm er let's see. I can bring i in today if you wish. Or that's too late Well no I'm here till till five Five o'clock? Yeah. Half past four to five you can bring it in. I'd like to hear it. Yeah alright. I'll tell y what I'll I'll bring i about five o'clock. Yeah okay. And what I need to do I'll I'll catch a taxi at my place and I'd do a copy and then bring it in. Er well I don't want you to go to any expense Martin, I mean No I'm not going to expense, I can afford it I assure you. Can you? Yes. Are you wealthy? Wealthy, I wish I was. Er I mean one maybe one day I will if if it makes a hit eh That's right yeah and we could both be wealthy couldn't we? Yeah be good that. Alright Martin I'll see you later. I'll see you later anyway. I'll Okay yeah I'll ask the, when I go there I'll just say who I am and then Yes. we'll sort it out okay? Okay . Cheers. Bye. Could be interesting. See me now in the top ten. Iris of Stapleford. Hello Dennis. Yes Iris. You've been talking about doggy-dos I'm gonna talk to you about my dog. Oh yes. Do you remember Christmas time. Er I was t I told you about Victoria who was in the pantomime? Oh is she the one that was with the er magician? Yes. It was erm er er was it an old English sheepdog ? Old English sheepdog. And he was with the magician and he made her disappear. Yes that's right. No he made her appear. That's right. Yes I remember. Well she's just been in er Longeaton Operatic Society playing the dog in Annie for a week . Really? Yes So she's star struck int she? Yes she's fantastic. Cos, how did the magician work out at the Theatre Royal in Nottingham in the pantomime last year? How you mean how did it work out? Well did it how many how many performances did you do? She did thirty two. Did she? Yeah. Never put a foot wrong? No she was very good. Have you been in touch with that magician since? No we haven't actually, no. I wonder what I wonder what's happened cos he's er he's from Leicester wasn't he? Yeah, we kno I've forgotten now where he was playing as er we know where his summer season was but I can't just can't remember . Er he was very good. He was good. Very good . Ever so good. Oh so you Yeah. what's your sheepdog called? Victoria. Victoria of course yes Victoria. So she's just Yeah, yeah done Annie? Annie for the Longeaton er Operatic Society. And was she good again? Yeah. Never put a foot wrong? Well you know wha when I knew what she had to do, I thought well erm she had to walk on by herself to Annie. That's right, it was an acting part wasn't it ? Yes because er they'd found these stray dogs and she says I'll look after her and then she sang a song t to my dog. Mm. Then the policeman come on and said, is that your dog? You know er or is it a stray? And then later on the script she ha to say he had to say to her well, call her, you leave her and if she doesn't come to you that's not your dog and take her to the pound and have her put down. Mm. But of course we were you know crossing our fingers and she went to her every time. Did she? But actually I had her for half an hour to the commands and everything. Yeah. Cos she's obedience trained. So when's your next starring role? Well she's resting between Oh resting. Has she got an agent? Wish she had. Really do. Yeah. Is she is she a real Dulux old English sheepdog ? She's a real Dulux she's beautiful She really is? Yes. Is she? Long coat and everything? Long coat she looks lovely. You don't take the coat off? No. I do think it's a pity when No. people take the coat off No. of an old English sheepdog. Yes. I hate to see that I must say . Yeah. Then she had to run across the stage on her own. Did she? Yeah. And she did that, how many performances were you there? Erm we did every night and twice on Saturday. Did you? Yeah. And never put a foot wrong. It was lovely absolutely marvellous . Gotta be good. How old is she now? She's two. Is she? Two years of age. Oh But I belong to the Derby dog training club and also Sheila I go to training. Oh yeah. And we go to agility with her. So she's really well behaved anyway ? Oh she's yes she's lovely. And it's all done by kindness you know. Mm. It's all done by . And did they do good business at the er Longeaton Yeah Annie? Yeah it was lovely. Ah. It was really nice . Alright well tell us when she's next on. Yes I will. Alright love. Right. Bye. Bye. Hey Victoria really is a star int she? Erm now we've got a oh a message, is anyone going to Albania or Bosnia or Rumania? There's a a big bag of blankets and warm clothing needs to be taken from Nottingham. Phone if you can help. Anyone going to Albania or Bosnia or Rumania? A big bag of blankets and warm clothing needs to be taken from Nottingham. Phone if you can help. . Robert of Mansfield Robert Hello Robert Yes. Yes there you are. Er I've organized a children's Christmas party, it's called Christmas party. Er is . Mm. Er tickets are a pound each. It's on Sunday the fifth of December at Mansfield Leisure Centre. And er we we're in need of er raffle prizes and things like that and if anyone wishes tickets they can er reach me on . Now all the proceeds are going to Fiona appeal. Yeah. So it's a Christmas party Yes. on the fifth of December, Sunday the fifth of December at the Mansfield Leisure Centre, Yeah. pound to get in. Yeah. It's Christmas party, it's for children? Yes. Pound a ticket Er and adults er adults er cos we're holding a Christmas raffle and Oh. Thank you. Mm mm. I've got a bit sticky there. Are we gardening What? today or what? Er I'll have to see what it looks . I want to go in the garden. Well you've got your dungarees on so you're all ready. Yes. I want to ride my bike. Plant some seeds. Yes I suppose we could do. It's too wet to cut the grass isn't it? Well it is and I oh anyway I want to sharpen that rod on it. Er, so I'll probably go down and see Dennis, get er a nut so I can get it level, cos it keeps only cutting on half of the side. This is a good one Dave. Good. Ooh ooh! Ooh ooh! Just today. Yummy! Yummy! Yummy! Yummy! Yeah. Well I think it's . Mm mm. There's a few things we need from the shops that I didn't get yesterday. Thanks dad. Oh we I thought that was made and was waiting for that. No I forgot it that. I, I, I could have done that. I know you could, but . I thought I'd done it and then realized What are you doing today Chris? Dunno yet. Should have said we were watching football today. Mm mm. And no plans for Gerald's computers today? No. I was I'll have a for the microphone sound mum. Mm. Could do. That was nice. Could Simon come round tomorrow? Simon? Mm mm. Simon . Oh! Simon. I don't know if we're gonna go out. I mean if it's nice and we'll either garden I or we'll go out it depends what Is there anything on for tomorrow? No. I must fill up the list though because there's a lot of things coming up. Oh! We've got to decide about Monday night. Oh yes, we will because erm I don't know whether you can take David out to do that way or No I'm going to take the children. And it starts No! it starts at seven thirty. Yes but, at seven, it starts. Oh it starts at seven? Yes. I haven't got But the details yet. it looks like you know, it goes on until at least nine thirty or ten. Th the thing is though if we are going, erm you know those details about the conservatory? Yeah. The, the chap rung up to see when was a good time to come and I suggested Monday at half past six. But I can, I took his, no don't worry, I took his telephone number because I said look, I do I'm, I'm not sure if anything might come up I won't be here. and I'll He's at Cubs. Yes, well that's what I thought. Then I thought it would terminate it quite quickly because erm it start erm Yes but him and Cubs and going to Oh I see, yes. the quiz don't tie in do they? Yes but he could miss Cubs if we're going. But th the point is we're Erm about Cubs, I need to take sixty P for my big badge. Er, Oh! You have to pay for that do you? Yeah. Oh. And besides that It's pretty awful anyway. But yes, did you, should you, you have taken the sixty P last week? No I forgot. Oh Chrissy! I wish you'd remember these things. I said I'd bring it in this week. Chris what do you want next love? Can I have some toast please? Which sort? That sort please. Do you have to take your subs and the badge money separately? Or can I just give you A pound. I just give you a pound? Right. I wish you'd remembered Chrissy. You really, when you come home ought to write these things down. One of those? Yes. Well I was gonna wait till the coffee was ready. Thank you. What about the money for your camp, have you got to start taking that yet or can you take Er la that a bit later? take that When's that? a bit later. Well July some time isn't it? Well the camp's July, yes, but they usually want the money in before. Well, I dunno when that pay . The Lake District money has to be in this month, that's another eighty five, is it eighty fi ninety pounds? Oh and you've got to take for Mrs fourteen pounds for the erm violin exam. You're an expensive hobby Chrissy. Mm. Never mind. Go on Dave you can eat more of that. Come on, there's some more yolk in that egg. Come on. There isn't much, but I'll try my best. Well I hope that's more than that. Are you still on your vitamin Bs? Don't you like them? No they're awful! And take you're supposed to take two aren't you? I do! What about the erm cod liver oil one? I've just refilled the pot. The what? The cod liver oil one? Oh I couldn't take, I'm not gonna You'll be rattling . any more. Ow! I need some more, I must get some more if they want the children to have Wha what have you done? I think he's bitten the side of his mouth. Oh. Do you take one of these vitamins as well mum? No. No I don't. Cos I just take the cod liver oil ones. And they've got Well you've still got two more on the table . Erm well two of them are cod liver oil. The other one's iron. Is the other one steel and the other one copper? No, not quite. Yes. Steel and copper. No, erm Thank you. I'm so I'm sorry Jane which did you want? You're having that then, these? No I'm going to have this cup of coffee. I'm just waiting for the coffee, you sort out what you're doing. Dad. Yes Dave. I tried my best. Alright I'll finish that off You see that Alright. lot out. I'll get it. So look, they're squashed at the bottom. Well yes, but there's an awful lot of yolk and I don't, really don't see why you can't eat the white of the egg. Er, can I have some more toast please Dad? Yes. This sort? Yes dad. I'll put it under the grill. I thought you'd like granary for a change. Well David likes it doesn't he? But you don't like granary do you Chrissy? No. No. Mm mm. Just sort of Are you going to football today dad? No we're finished Chris. There's only two cup matches against war team, I mean th They play in the evenings so if it's a Vets Memorial Trophy nice evening and they start at, well actually, if it's a nice But evening we could all go. the second team's still playing but we've finished so er it's a ni early end to the season. Er this is lovely you doing all the No it isn't lovely, it's awful! Well, It's ruined my Saturdays. because the Oh! Drat! Burnt Well the toast. thr throw it out. No. That toaster's a bit unpredictable at the moment. Well, it's supposed to adapt to all widths and it's rubbish Well it, yeah. it doesn't. Well we've had it over a year, it's probably had its natural life. It's . Mm. I told you I went and looked that up not long ago, things at that price they only guarantee them for six months. Yeah. Well we got through several toasters in a year. Yeah but they all went just over a year and we thought Just over a year. we thought oh they've just got out the guarantee. Mm. It's not right they were out of it six months before then. Mm mm. Dave. Don't sing while you're eating. They're very now aren't they? Yeah. I wonder what they're for? I know what they're for Chris, but I don't know what he's doing with them. What are they for then? Well to help Surveying. you on the surveying But called ranging bows. oh. Dad. I thought they were polling stations. Oh! Chris . No your school's going to be a polling station next week. Not all of it. No. Is it just the hall they're using? Mm. Yes. Yes. Yes. Will you do that for me please? Yes I will. Can I get in there? Oh dear! I better get another knife. Were you hungry? Mm. You go into a polling booth do you? Er, polling, yes you do, they're divided into little booths and you have a little Mum. table and there's there's a pencil attached by a string to the desk. Mum. Mm? Do you remember when I told you about Can you take your feet off the table! I had to have er dinner in Mrs 's classroom? Yes. Well, that was why th there was a polling people were going to vote there, in the hall. Well I don't . Yes, that was for the council election. There's local council elections, this is a general election. A general election. So there'll be probably a few more people voting at er Mm mm. There'll be three instead of two. They're open seven o'clock till, in the morning till ten o'clock at night. Tt. Who? It certainly is . Well that's okay. Can you Do you want me to leave yours a bit longer? No, okay. Can you strain mine please. No it's alright. I wanna get started. Let me just cut that for you. There you go. Thanks mum. Okay. Looks okay though. Yeah, well . It's just that you've got the er No I don't think it is. No, that's alright for me anyway. Well your looks good. I think all the dregs have gone. Can I Okay. have some jam? I was ringing your mum up but er Chrissy, do you want lots of toast? Have you finished with the Marmite David? Yes please. Do you want Marmite? Which flavour? Da David This one? do you want Marmite on your toast? Erm, Can I sit down then? Oh I think you can. Dave! Please! Mouth closed. I know you've got a cold but I've got a cold. Are we going to decorate the kitchen today? Oh yes, that was what oh, but wi with the weather being nice we ought to be out. It was a question of, if it wasn't very nice we would finish Ah. I haven't really to get down it was just I, I took . Mm. Oh! And the contents of that board of course. I don't want young messing up. Well I'd better check what we have to do it with. Mine is like that But do like that. Well no, I meant your, the one you made. I think I've got all the paint but erm Oh I thought you knew whether you'd got it. Mm. But if, if it's a nice That looks nice. day I think we ought to be out in the garden. And we'll save the decorating for when it's raining again. Cos it's not as if we have to keep it for the weekend, I can do it during the week. No that's better. Is that how you like your toast? Yes thanks. underdone. Mm. But hot? The two boys are up the dentist on Thursday. Oh no! Heaven help the dentist! See Alison. Who's see Alison? No, we're going to see Alison. That's the dentist. Ha? When I went in there the other week, you walk in and think isn't she nice. Then she starts messing around with your mouth. And then, then she yeah,she you and she said, oh, you alright? And you think oh she's marvellous! Then she says, I'll just clean this bit of tartar off. After that you think, you right. I think that's worse than having a filling. But dad What? it's called decay. No, No, love, no it's not. They get this drill do they? They put them No she, it's She has a scraper with a pointed er Scraper on the back of your teeth. Does it hurt? It doesn't hurt, it's uncomfortable. I've got very sensitive gums cos I've brushed them badly I for years. I don't think we have to discuss that while we're eating. All too prone to neglect so that's why we take good care of your teeth. Pardon? No it's not, I didn't put it back. Oh. Do you really want to carry on using that mug? Can't you start on something else? I like it. You like it. And my crocodile mug as well. Yes. Do you want to start using that? And put your turkey mug away for a while. Yes. Good. Well David's mug is positively quiet compared to yo I'll finish this drink first though. Well yes . I think we might even wash it before it goes in the David's mug is quiet compared to Oh have you bitten your mouth again? I think it's because you try to eat too much at one go. Well there's this first. If you want to wear your jeans Chrissy, they're in the drawer. I just got the wrong pair out. Oh. I'd forgotten there was a new pair in the wardrobe with, still with the labels on I hadn't taken off. Mm. As long as you don't put a belt on they're still long enough. Are they? Can I wear my track suit? . Yes, that's alright. I'd like to put two . Okay. Gosh! What's your plan on the violin front today Chris? Yes. We didn't do a particularly good practice on Thursday. Friday night you got let off. So there's two good ones to do. We've got to go through one of the exam pieces. She wants to run through them all and then you've got to fill in a piece of paper on which three pieces you'd like to do, and al you know, she wants the cheque and full details of what name to go on the certificate and that sort of thing. I read it through as four pounds, and Brenda next to me is saying, fourteen and I had to re-read it, it, course it's fourteen. I thought that was rather a lot. Not really. Mm. I don't remember it being that much last year, but she's using a different board this year so maybe that's something to do with it. David, another piece of this. I think he's had enough. Right. No, not, not , Vitalite please. Oh. I know. I know, I've got it all worked out. I'll have the crusts. No, but there isn't a crust. Oh oh! Well if you, he's developed a taste for crusts. Oh! Aha, use th bag we might need to put that behind it if you wouldn't mind please. Anybody got any preferences for dinner tonight? I can see a No Dad, I can see a crust in that Vitalite. Ah but in That's the next one. that's, that's a new one but we're just using the old one But there's one last in, in this one cos you've had the crust already. Ra I know it must be you because it wasn't me. Did you like that granary bread? Ooh yes! Daddy's cut you a nice thick slice. Yes. Mm mm. Er Oh! I can't eat it plain. I'm not, I'm not asking you to eat it Dave, I just wish you didn't pass it across to me like that. Oh! Sorry! We do Do you want a bit more? Yes please daddy. This finished? I'm sorry. Dad Oh you put that there. Mm. Yes? The only thing wrong with that granary bread is that every time you cut it it wriggles, wriggles. It wriggles. Well it's alive. It goes like, woo ooh! Mum will do that for you. That's the knives int it? That's better. This. Marmite again then? Yes mum. Breakfast is nothing like reading a comic. We never said it was. Well, I don't see the connection. Oh oh oh! You know, you read your comic at breakfast. Well, you might. Well dad doesn't read his newspaper at breakfast. What newspaper? We only have a newspaper once a week. There you go. Thank you very much. Dave! Chomping away. Do you want spaghetti tonight? Suits me. Spaghetti David? Got some of that lovely oatmeal bread? I didn't know you were talking about bread. Nice big oatmeal buns. I think, I think on the grounds that erm what we've been, I'm gonna have chicken on Sunday. Well Is that alright? Yep. Fine. After two dinners now I've had enough. Well that's what I thought. I was going to do beef but I think er I think we'll go back to chicken. Mhm. I'm not interested. I had that Thursday night. The beef, yes, that's, I thought you did. Erm, we need some more milk. I was just a bit too short of time on, on Friday to That's about all I need. And, some vegetables. Yeah. But we can pick that up any time today can't we? Mm. Or Sunday. Certainly get looks like it the sun's going in. Mm mm. Yeah, probably if you want me to get that old mower going I ought to go up to Woods and see if I can get a new drive belt. Well it would be nice if I could use it. Mm mm. But why don't you use the other one? And when, when the weather is nice Mm? I said I would be very happy to be out there. We've got two mowers. The red one and a green one. Why don't you use the green one? Well I like the ride on one because it's easier. The, the green one it takes hours to cut used to take about three hours for me to cut all the grass with that one. But first, but when we first came here I spent three hours on a Sunday morning, and I only did that area where you play football. Ah! Mind you, I was just slow. Mm. Erm If you'd started the motor and used it it would have helped. What about, are we going to put that one in the sale this year, the one that's out in the shed? Yes I would think so. Yes it would be nice if we were, we got rid of that. Put it in the Then I can traction engine rally auction. That's what, yes I think it was . But it's the it's the transporting of it. I have no trailer. You see if we can get away on holiday earlier this year because the violin exam's in June or in July we'll be back. Cos you remember we came round, we came back the night before the traction engine rally cos I didn't have time to get organized. What about, you could hire a trailer. Not with your mouth full! I'm sure we could work out something. I'll have to check I've got all the engine bits, whether I left any at dad's so I can at least stick, bolt Mm. the engine back together. You do agree though we should get rid of it? Yeah. I'm never going to do that one. There's your tractor to do, there's my motorbike to do, and so many other I know but that things that mower's a I don't like goner. that out there it is because at the back of my shed, I want to do some I want to tidy that area up. Mm. Repot some plants. Dad. Yes love. You've never taken us on a ride on your motorbike this year. Well I haven't, haven't had it out this year. I'm not going to D'ya know I think, I think, I think it has been out this year. Yes I, actually I think it It has. I think we have run it once this year. But er, there's two things Dave. Yes. Number one is, I don't like using it on wet grass. The other one, is you and Chrissy getting too big to take you both on it now. Have to be one at a time now. And you'll have to ride on the back, you can't ride on the tank any more. Why? You're too big. You're too big now. You're six now. I remember when I used to ride on the tank. You were only a baby, I used to be very frightened. You had nothing to hold on to, you were just squeezed in between daddy's legs. But when I was a bit older Mm. and I was still riding on the tank Yes but I gripped a erm I gripped it. Yes. Yes yo well your hands were a bit bigger and you knew where to hold on. More? Yes please. Thank you. Dad. Mhm? We can get the motorbike out in the summer. Mm. I wasn't meaning that motorbike in any case. That one goes. There's another one in there that doesn't. Ah. Oh don't tell me . Which reminds me, when are we going to get rid of all those other car bits in there? Oh yes! I know, there's a windscreen up er, on the ceiling Mm. we which came from the car you, you two got married in. And you've still got that paste on it. I was under the impression we got married in the church . No you got it wrong Dave. Well you nicked it off someone's car though. I dismantled that car. It was one your uncle David brought up for me so that I could get take it to pieces to make the car we'd got better. Ah! Took the engine out, the gearbox out. You do realize it's nine years later and we've still got the bits, got all the bits in the garage? Mm mm. Be collector's pieces. Can we get rid of them? No I'm, I'm D'ya want any more? I'm having another piece of toast in a moment. But there's no rush though. I'm tired this morning, but not as tired as I thought I would be considering two nights out. At least you've had one of them in your own bed. Mm. And the smoke the smoke on Thursday was awful! You'd think the Roadrunners friends wouldn't smoke as much as they did. But then you see Wen Wendy brings all the friends from Leckernby Installations, of course, they all smoke. They got crowds of them from there. Mhm. Actually I was thinking it would be nice erm I have to make a team up with erm Wendy's parents and we would do quite well with the joint knowledge of four of us. It's your competitive instinct coming out again. You're trying to win. One of the questions erm, there was a one of the categories was quiz shows so I thought well I, I don't, I won't do very well here cos I just don't watch enough and one of the questions was, who was the helper on erm My, on Take Your Pick? The old Take Your Pick. Well one of the ones that u that used to Take Your Pick? Who sha well Michael Mi That was Michael Miles. Michael Miles used to do it. Who was the helper? On Take Your, on Take Your Pick. Bob Walker. Well, you see, er we didn't know that. Yo yo if you'd have been there we'd have done well. And then it was who was the helper on Double Your Money? Well we fi Hughey Green and er finally got to Monica and we thought that was enough, so we just wrote Monica, we thought they'd accept that and they did n't. Th the we didn't get the full marks we, we didn't get I can't remember her name. Monica Rose. Oh. But you see, if we'd had yous and then, we were doing qui quite well up until Well I wasn't around. I was at then, then we got the sport and we didn't do so well on that. Oh well. Did you do the filters on this yesterday? Erm I rinsed out the bottom of the , yes. Alright. Why would they leave those poles? I mean they were there at lunchtime when I came home and there was nobody with them so I assumed they'd knocked off for lunch. And then I think somebody's trying to upset you. I is that all they're trying to do? Because it's frustrating Well no, I don't know, but to put them there and then I wouldn't er leave them there. they've lined one up at each end of the field so it, it looks like they're saying, well, you know that's a parcel of land. Yeah. But, I don't know. I mean I, I reckon it'd be nice if they, they sort of parcel it up and then sell some of it Go round and ask. No. Why not? I don I don't know whether I want to spend er, you know, so much money on that. Well would you rather do that or have a conservatory? Well it the land would cost so much more than the conserv I don't know if I want to spend so much money here, I'd rather You do Yes but, you don't know how much er, I mean, you can't sell it for housing at the moment. He looks always And he's not getting strapped for cash. and he's not getting any younger. How old is he now? Well, he must be about seventy. Oh! He must be more than seventy. Well, he's only seventy. I mean he's, he's a long way to go. Co could you cut me a slice of that please? Oh not not quite as big as that. Just, just, that's it, yes. Thank you. Do you want my finger with it? No. Thank you. Oh the er the hotel at Gosforth had erm Sky. Oh yeah. And er, you know,th it's, it's spo Oh that's just enough. it's sport or films. The sport was all boxing and erm the film was erm a horror film, but a modern one. Yeah. Oh how so, I doing, I did the channel flipping and erm every time you went to it somebody else was getting chopped up, drowned Oh don't in that one. please! I'm still eating my breakfast. So, I'm not bothered about Sky television if that's what they put on. I don't think we ever were bothered with Sky television. I must get the daffodils out of the porch and change the ones round the house, they're looking a bit tired. Yes? Can I go today please cos he said he won't be playing today er, cos erm yeah cos he can't. Yes but er i i the thing is, if he said he would be playing he would come round here. Don't you think you've been round there too often? You can ring him and ask him what his plans are. But, don't forget we need to know your plans as well sunshine. I know. There's two violins to fit in. There's two violin practices today. I know. Did you re Are you gonna finish this lot off? Yes I, yes I am. There's erm, a list of dates for the junior school, they're having their photographs taken again. Enough? Erm perhaps a second, a bit longer please. Where's the erm What? the phone thing? Oh . Okay? Get very messy on a Saturday morning breakfast don't we? Ah! Post. Yeah well, that one's a new cheque book. This one'll be your Marks and Sparks' charge card. Have you used it recently? No. Well, not excessively. Dear me. How much? Fourteen pounds. Mm. That's what I mean, I've only been in the . That was at Scunthorpe. Yes. D'ya remember I went over tha that day I dropped you off and I took the children home. Oh yeah. Right. Erm Mrs Gerry , the Bradford Exchange. No. That's the But i it'll only be that picture. Didn't, did we actually That plate. order that new picture on a plate? I ordered you the other one, but in my name not yours. Yeah. Ah well th this picture's coming, or that one. It's probably details of the same plate though. You must get some means of hanging them up. Yeah. That's right. Got things like that on it. Oh no, it's erm I don't know if it's quite my sort of thing. No, it's not yours. There. Oh you've got the, no, it's in there, the details are in there look. A racket isn't it? I mean, you know, everything's plate one, have you ever seen plate two, three or four or? Mm mm. Oh! I think they go to two and three but they don't go very far. Michael 's alright. The paperwork must cost quite a lot that they keep pushing out. Why? I mean the plates'll cost pennies to make. Look at this, all this Mm mm. and there's no mention of the price. Oh! It'll be on here somewhere. No, they are, they, they do they, they are pretty good. There. It's all listed out properly. Nineteen ninety. So oh here it is. That's the sort of thing Geoffrey might like. Erm What? Well that's a thought. What? Erm when we sell that flat we were gonna give Geoffrey and Jean something. Well that's a Yeah I nice for present Geoffrey but not for Jean. Not Yeah, but you get Jean something as well. No, don't you think that's going a bit over the top? Well it's up to you. I'll buy them a bunch of flowers ! That's a better one. Here's a second plate, it's a lank. Takes me back to Scampton. Oh yes, that's nice. I like that better than the other one. Yes that's plate two. Coalforth. Nineteen twenty. Yes that's better. I like that. I'm, I'm a bit confused, thinking about work yesterday, I'm a bit confused about who, who's . Erm Steve for some reason I thought he was a tall man, but he's quite short isn't he? Yeah. Just when he's Is he on the football field. He can jump. Steve, the fair haired little is he the one one. well, who's the one the dif a while ago drove down Middle Street and crashed into some, that one? That was Ian , he doesn't work there. Oh! I'm mixing the two people. Ian 's tall. But he Isn't he? Yeah. he doesn't look anything like him. So Steve 's quite respectable? Yeah. They're all nice lads. Mm. Well he seemed quite nice and I thought, well are you the one that Ian's alright, he just gets drunk. Mm mm. But he's recently married that lass with the ready-made family so Oh well. No I just thought he was quite pleasant. I mean he was always quite helpful when I Steve's, Steve is didn't know anything Steve's very pleasant. He's a nice lad. but I thought, well is he the one He's intelligent as well. He, he er yes, he I mean they were all quite helpful. Pete was, was quite helpful too. Mm. I thought to Janet when I last see him . It's alright. Janet should come to work shouldn't she? Do you think she'll turn up on Monday? Oh I would think so. She's got the most abysmal sickness record! She'll rigid cos her pay stopped at one stage and it was wrong because she hadn't been warned Mm mm. but erm she did a threw a wobbler about it and Mm. then when we checked into it It was right. and you got her sickness record it it was, well it's What's the matter with her? they nearly paid her erm early forties and a spinster. Oh Phillip! That's D'ya know what I mean? very sexist. I don't like that. Is she in her early forties? Yes. Forty one I think. You mean she's my age? I thought she was older than me. There you are, you see. No I think She's, she's, she's typical of the Now now! of the eight cats Oh I know she is. Mm. living on your own syndrome. So I think it's the cats she catches anything from. She worries and frets all the time. It's cos she's nobody to talk to. Mm. That's what Julie and I were saying that when you live on your own you get a bit like that. Oh! She, she gets all wound up at home and then comes to work and where there's people to sound off about, everything under the er the sun. We were saying about John, we was talking about John as well. Yeah. And the fact he can't just accept things, he has to question things. And we were talking about M E, and how Oh he's a very intense person. how Dave, I was saying about Dave and how he's sort of taken, taken a completely different attitude to things. More relaxed. But If he, if he couldn't do anything then he would accept it and not do it and then try a bit and if he had to go back to bed. I mean he gave up work for a long time didn't he? Yeah. But it's such a sort of thing And the contrast in personalities though, they're just Well there's a contrast in personality and you don't really know whether anybody's got the same thing because nobody's narrowed it down No, oh no, I mean down. Yeah you can't. All they know is that they're But Julie was saying different. about that sleeping treatment that he took,tha that finished him off because he, he, he Yes but staked so much on that and we were, we were agreeing Oh yes I know. that the reason he didn't sleep was because the fact that he was just sitting around all day. So you wouldn't sleep But they didn't then your body doesn't need it. they didn't do it properly though. Oh! That was the other thing she said, that he, he should have be gone into hospital. Course he should. He tried to do it at home and that was They co ridiculous! did he have the opportunity to go into hospital to have it done? Erm, well the I would have thought Yeah. so because erm I mean Paul said, with the blokes down in London and he, he ga gave them the pills and sa told them that they go back home and so he did. Yes but the, Julie said, and she's right of course, you can't have the erm strength of drugs to, to, to administer at home because obviously It wasn't, it wasn't you've got to be monitored on that sort of thing. You can't be put into it wasn't done right. a deep drugs and ni not have erm some medical staff monitoring you. Yeah it sounds like you did a lot of work yesterday. I told you we tal I talked, I, I disturbed her all day long. Oh look! What? Why is that? What is it? Oh! I was going to say it was just something stuck on the It's te I'll pick it up,i if it it was rust on the . No, no. It, it, it No, now that I've seen it. while I was sitting from here I could erm see it had something stuck on it. The sheep seemed to have thinned out. Mm mm. I think they must be up that other end cos th there's about a couple of dozen yesterday I noticed. Only two down here. They're not eating our hedge. No, see that one that's going up near where I planted granddad's honeysuckle? Mhm. They erm,they er there was a lamb nibbling that yesterday and he's taken off,so the bits at the top and the bottom have no connection any longer so Oh! It's not, I don't think that's granddad's honeysuckle. I must go out and check it. I don't know where granddad's is. No, it's ju it's just down there. But that was a wispy one, granddad's was ever so big. No, granddad's never really took off With big leaves. because of the of the drought. When we were away it didn't get watered on. I used to water it every day. Well everything looks as though it's had a good water now. All four lilac trees have taken anyway. I want to check that the Did I tell me when we got up to erm Newcastle we turned on the local news, they'd had five inches of rain which is a winter's rain in four days. Mm mm. The Metro station just down from Gosforth Park er was flooded to platform level. Oh . Like d'ya, do you remember Sheffield And all the overheads were flooded last year? Yeah. And, and everywhere you went the fields waterlogged Actually standing in water. Standing in water all the way up. Snow on the hills and everything. Mm. But fortunately, you know, we, we only got tail end of it, a bit of sleet. Whereabouts did you go yesterday? You know you said there was a bus coming at half past eight. Where did Erm you go? I couldn't to I couldn't quite imagine what you were doing. went round the erm British Gas research establishment. Oh! Was it mu was it very interesting? Amazing! Amazing! And very impressed. The it's a massive place and, you know, five or six hundred staff, and erm, it's where they develop all the new technology for the gas fields delivery of gas to your house and everything. But you see they're spending a lot of the time you know, on developing ways of repairing roads after they've been in them. And what's impressive is they're doing research that we should have been doing for years! I mean, it's a bit much when the gas board is there showing us How to research how, it's developed materials, it's developed techniques and everything for mending roads. So it's er a bit humbling. So did you learn something? Yeah. Quite a lot. You see when the erm legislation changes shortly, well the legislation is there but when it's enacted erm they they will become responsible for repairing after their own hole digging and they have to provide us with guarantees. Certain standard and time to do it in. Yes, but I've, they've got to guarantee the repair for at least two years after they've done it. Ah I see. So, British Gas, the commercial, have worked out that there's only one way to do that, you do the job properly to start with. Mm. Yes. And so, they're putting all the effort into doing it. Mm. Well they And er don't wanna, amount of time of coming back again to do it haven't It's they? well that's lost money isn't it? Mm mm. So no it was very impressive. I'll I think it's a bit much when you have highway engineers there and really they were showing us how it should be done. And er Mm mm. they proved, you know, some things, certain rollers and stuff that we thought were useless, you know Paddy's dancing partner? Oh yeah . Erm well we thought that was out of fashion. They've shown that if you run it at the right speed and stuff it's one of the most effective methods of doing it and erm the ones we say are the nice little plate compactors which are the best thing, they are useless in comparative performance so Mhm. er no it was, good. The money they spend on research! I forget what it was, the turnover was erm something like eight billion. Or was it no i er it, probably eight hundred billion. It was in some figure you can't even relate to. So Well they must have a lot of money. Isn't it British Gas' Chairman that's just had that enormous pay rise? Well I think most of them have. Oh yes, but the Gas one has. But I mean th the the standard of entertainment, I mean put, putting us all in that hotel for Somebody was saying rang in complained to Peter about the, the amount of, what, what are they getting? It's not, it's not quarter of a million is it? It's about two hundred thousand. Prob probably something like that. And Peter said well what would you consider a reasonable salary for him? And I thought he would say something like, you know something really silly, about fifty, sixty thousand, but he said I think a hundred and fifty thousand's enough. And, I thought well, it is really isn't it? Probably is. And for, for somebody who was ringing in, an ordinary person just complaining Mm. I, I do think they have rather gone over the top. Well, there you are. If you want to attract the right people and keep them you have to pay them money. Yeah but, don't, I'm sure there must be a lot of right people who will work for a hundred and fifty thousand. Probably not. Well The other thing that was interesting I learnt at dinner on Thursday night is, under the government's legislation within so many years, nineteen ninety four I think, they've got to ha have reduced their market share from the original hundred percent to sixty percent as new firms come in to sell gas Yes. Now, as the bloke said there, the only way you can do that with people coming in from the outside is that British Gas have got to keep pushing their prices up to make it worthwhile for somebody else to come in. For the competition to get in. You can't just suddenly say well we're not gonna supply this quarter or something unless there's somebody coming in Mm mm. to do it. To make it commercially attractive to somebody else British Gas have to got keep lifting their prices to a level, that eventually somebody comes in and says oh yes It's worth my while it's worth me having a go. Yeah. I asked them if once they'd got rid of the forty percent they could then get it back by dropping the prices, you know, they've, they've By, by competing. satisfied them legally? Yeah. They weren't sure about that. But, they, they thought they'd probably struggle. I thought, just assumed they would have known. Well,ye I'm not dealing with the marketing people was I? No. I was, dealing with the engineering people. Right. If you're clearing up I'll go upstairs and er Yeah. Yes, I think you're right . Oh no, there's some more sheep sitting over there. Under th under that tree that is left. Mm mm. Nothing from the insurance company was there? No. Oh yes, I wonder You wonder what? I wonder what they've decided to Well it's out of our hands. It's just very important that I hope you remembered to pick up those discs last night. I can't understand why he, I mean he had nothing to do with it. And Lorna did her own sheet didn't she? We, we did our own. Didn't Lorna fill in her own sheet? Yes. So. Well they said it was me and Lorna. Yeah. Well I that it was you. Yeah. But we've ended up with, they've got the prize and we're the ones who did it, who, who did it. Who did do it. I'm not worried about it. Well it I say it's a compact disc when you haven't got a compact disc player When you ha haven't got a player it er but neither have they, it's a, thing is this it's a bit of a luxury. Well I thought I would use it as a raffle prize at school or something. Give it straight back into something. No use Okay. to us, I can't see us ge Anyway, I'll be down in a minute. can't see us ever having a compact disc player. No. Dave. Come on. Get a move on this morning. Oh! Phillip the tape's going . What? Well I can't hold a conversation on my own. Why not? Well, I'm not very good at that sort What? of thing. We're going to do the mower. Okay? Yes. Yes. So I'm gonna fetch it round. Erm yeah, I don't think I can do the big mower. I couldn't get the right bolts. Oh. And we went to try and get Chris some trainers. It wouldn't hurt for some of them throwing away but none the right size of course. Yes. Well what size is he? And, so I popped in and asked Douglas if he'd got any going for next to nothing but he doesn't have anything down his size. No. But we really ought to er Oh he does, he needs some trainers. Erm Yeah. Well I mean he I'll go, I'll I thought I'd take him into Woollies or the market or something. Well not the market. But er Well, do you want to go to Phillips and, I mean he kicks them out in two weeks. Oh I was gonna say haven't Clarkes got some cheap ones in? Him and trainers soon What about Toby in Bridlington? Pardon? What about Toby if we get some, he desperately needs some because he Yes but he desperately but, but I mean yes but when Could wear last year's. when you go to a, but th th Phillip question is, are we getting him quality like you and I would want Oh no! or are we getting him ones that he can kick to pieces? Well just I mean usu How much in the summer I usually get him some trainers er cheap, the cheapest trainers anyway, but I mean yes it's time he has them. But you know on the but there's a shoe shop near that one and That was . I know the one you mean. Aha. Yeah. And We got, we got some cheap trainers from there Yes. once didn't I? You also got them on a No you got these ones up in Woollies didn't you? Well okay. But they never . Yeah. Anyhow. As long as you get the proper size. Yes. The mower stuff Do the thing, alright. and then, then we'll do that. Are you helping with that Chris? What? Th the mower's out the shed, can you fetch it right the way over here then please? Is it, is it warm out there? Well, it's, it's perhaps a bit cool without Er yes, yes. a coat on. Okay. Well I'll, I'll But I wouldn't describe it as warm. Can you shut the door and I'll, I'll ring David. Bye. Bye. Now how are you getting on? Mum. Yes? You see that? That's entrance for look at the back. Yes. You go in there and there's a little ticket office inside. Yeah. Then you come out here onto the platform. Can you get a tissue and blow your nose cos you have such a runny cold. Is there some Ee! Ee! in mum? There's some in there in the sitting room. Off you go. Go on, quickly. This . Yes it is. You've got lots of them. Have you got the full set now? No you haven't have you? There's Donald and Duck No I I've got two of those, Harold and Donald and this one. They ke Yeah. every time we think You haven't. every time we think we've got the full set they bring out some more. Yeah. I think my favourite is Trevor the Traction Engine. Ah yeah. Oh yeah. Go on, get that tissue. Get your nose blown. This is spotless. Well yo you only got that at Christmas so you haven't played with it much. Come on! Get that nose blown. Look there's Christopher taking that old lawnmower across for daddy to mend. I suppose we ought to go out and give him a hand really but That maybe later on. that we still use that one! We're keeping that one, it's the old, really old one we're going to put into that auction. It's the really, really old one. The one that's at the back of the shed. I just Yeah. want that one to do the edges with and daddy'll ride round to do, or I will, or you will, no you won't, or Chrissy will to do the middle bit. The grass has got very long hasn't it? Yeah. It looks very green now it's had all that rain. Have you blown your nose properly? Go and throw that one away and get me another one and I'll help you. Mum. And then you can come and tell me all about I ha your game. I've had Duck for a long time. Yes. Oh it's Donald and Douglas is, is, are those will you go and get those tissues sorted out please? I've still got the two twins to get. Douglas Well and Douglas and Bill and Ben. Well we'll have to see what happens at Christmas. But Christmas is a long way away. I've got Douglas' friends to get yet. What did you need them for? Bring me a tissue for you? Ar do yo are you hoping to get the full set? Come here. Blow. So I wanna change it for it's my first, my Fat Controller's Railway. Now keep that in your pocket and keep that nose clean Yeah. please. It's the only way to get rid of that cold. My first engine in the Fat Controller's Railway was Thomas. Yes that's right. Then it was Edward, then Henry then Gordon, then James, then Percy . Then Percy. Yeah. Then Toby Toby the Tram. And Henrietta the coach. Then it was Duck. Did we make a coach for, for Toby,Henrie can you buy Henrietta? Yes you can buy them. Do you want a Henrietta as well? Oh yes please mum! Mum. Yes? If I had loads of room in house I'd put them all together. Put them e behind Gordon. Yes but, I don't think Gordon, it's only Thomas that really has any caravan, sometimes Percy isn't it? The, the larger engines, the express engines don't. Maybe James. I thought er Cos it's usually the er the tender engines don't pull caravan do they? Yes. It's only the tankers isn't it? But mum! Look you can't get the express coaches. No. But mum Why, why Mum. I just think Tom's looking very battered. The cabs are very chipped. It's, I think you have to take a bit more care of those. Cos you will throw them at the back of the box instead of lining them up. D'ya remember how I got that box where you could lay them in separately? And of course you're not being very careful. You're not a very careful with your toys young man are you? But mum Mhm? you, you ca you can get a bo you can get a set of, you can get a board for these to get room on so you Mhm. Yeah. A big, a big board. I don't think we really need that do we now? No. Apparently it isn't a very big one. Well, well you've got All over the board that you set out the Lego on, you could run those on that. That's taking up enough room It is we do I don't think we've got any more space. The board's damaged from, cos that board's damaged beca from Duck, from Duck to Diesel. D'ya know I'd forgotten it's got dirty beads on. It's a long time since you've had this set out. Ooh yes! Well keep them all together this time. Or that'll get trod on. Ooh! There's that . Got Thomas. How come you've got two Thomas? Oh! Yo you bought another Thomas with Annie and Clarabel, is that Yeah. is that the one? I bought, we bought the Thomas second and then we Second one. got one Thomas with Annie and Clarabel. Mm. Oh. Mum. Yes? You know when we did gold paint on James' ? Yes. It's red paint. Mm mm. Whoops. Looks good in there. They're not in the right pair are they? Unfortunately, the Fat Controller. No they do come . Mm. Not actually, I think you can get different sizes can't you? Just those and erm small and that it's difficult to find, those are like the very small ones, they have a picture on there. Tt. But mum But I don't think the Fat Controller's supposed to be quite as nice is he? Are you finding they're not particularly ? Mine are all staying there. Oh.. ? Yeah. You know these two they, cos they set don't they? They come together, yes. But I think you've got different sizes there. Well, mum And probably only bigger ones. they came as the same they came in the same colour mu thing round them we in the red letters saying what they are. Mm. The same packaging. Yeah. Same package, package. Mm mm. Cos you can get the bigger Mm mm. got the bigger Thomas haven't you? Got two of them the one that, that pushes one round. Hey mum! You, you can get a toy the same as the Fat Controller there. Mm mm. A really big one, that big! They're that big. Well I don't, I haven't seen one that size. That big. It's probably yes. Maybe a bit smaller. No. Bu I think it's Fat Controller bubble bath. Oh! I see what you mean . I think Yeah. I think it is. Well I think it was made of a squidgy thing. Now, I was only thinking this morning when I was in your bathroom you've got lots of bubble bath left over from Christmas. You've still got some left over from the year before, but people keep giving you it. Mm. Chrissy's still got that turtle bubble bath that he doesn't want anybody to use. And you've got the same one. And then er pots with the squidgy soap in. Oh yeah! And then there's another tall bottle that Wendy got you. You've still got the lot from last year that David and Wendy got you and you've You soap still got this year's. I think it's about time you used some of that. I, I'm the only person who used the squidgy soap. Didn't we have to stop using it because Chrissy was coming out in a rash? No . No. And we didn't know what it was. No because I was,ha because I had the diarrhoea. Did you? Yeah. That was the reason we that was when we stopped using the turtle stuff. D'ya know, I don't know. Mm mm. Well we'll start using it again. Start using the stuff ta cos there's another big bottle in the cupboard as well in your bathroom. Yes. No point in saving it. You may as well use it. Mm mm. Mum. Yes? You know of that music which goes with the engines? Mm. Well as soon as you know, knowing it too well. . Oh we must make sure on Tuesday we're home to record, what time is the on? It starts at five to four doesn't it? I must get the tape lined up so that it's ready to switch on when we come home cos it's gonna be, walk home from school if it's a nice day, we'll, we'll have to hurry home. Cos we usually walk slowly don't we? So we're not getting home till about four o'clock. But if we, we erm Hurry. Well if it's, if it's if the weather's not very good I'll meet you in the car, but if it's a nice day I, I'd much rather walk to meet you. But mum we did go in th the car. You said, it's erm at five past five. No we, we walked and I, I got the time wrong didn't we? Cos we came in and Chrissy, instead of switching on the children's programmes put his computer on so we didn't see it. Well we But of course it's five to four isn't it? It's the beginning of the programmes rather than the end. Never mind. We've only missed one. Mum. I hadn't even got the tape lined up ready to the next, the next one on. So I'll have to get it set up ready for when I meet you from school and then we can switch it on as soon as we get home. Well that's what Chrissy did see. Well we'll remember. The Tuesday after that we go on holiday, it's the Easter holidays. Can you move your foot mum. I'm sorry. You're ri you're right on the railway. I'm standing on the railway? Oh, I better move out the way, I might get squashed. If we got this Monopoly game finished we could get this cleared up couldn't we? It's been going on a few days this game. I think Chrissy's got a although I'm not sure actually, you might win. You've got two sets haven't you? And quite a lot of money. Have you got houses on your set? Yes you have. You've got a house on . I started off quite well. I've got Mayfair Piccadilly, Fleet Street and Regent Street, but I never got a set did I? Mum, how much, how much do you want for Fleet Street? Well Then I'll have just three sets. Yes. If I land on something where I need some money. Chris has got quite a lot of, he's got Old Kent Road and Whitechapel Road. Although, they don't cost much to buy though. a few houses on them. You can earn some money. So I might need, if I land on that I'll probably have to sell Fleet Street to be able to survive. And I think once I do that I shall have lost out because Chris has got Park Lane and he's not going to part with those. So I don't think I'm going to do very well . Mum. Yes? Mind The your head on the cupboard. Mum, you know that's going pa round the and passed that there? Yes. That's the tunnel. Oh I see, yes. That is Mum. Yes? Er we you know I put it away to bring it out, out in here? Mm mm. Well when I was last playing with it that James kept on er in and in that erm he stopped at the station and I have to take it like that far enough cos I wanted Gordon to be there so he co could pick up the express pick, up the coaches Yeah. and it's, I think I can set down. Right. Oh I know what we used for the board. Do you remember that big puzzle that Barry gave Chris? Ah! That's what we used. We used to put the fire engines in it as well. Do you remember it makes into a into a big road and it's got a and a school, and factory and It hasn't got a factory. No? Got lots of things in it though. It's got a . Mm mm. I was thinking you could put Thomas and the carriages in there. And you can try everything on And it isn't, it's not big enough to get all the engines on. Is it big enough to put put, put Gordon on? Well Gordon's a very big engine. The biggest of all of the engines on the Fat Controller's Railway. He's the only . He's the only . specific. But, could do. Yes. The wheeler engines And then put Look, yes there's a four, six two Two. other engines that we're not going to get Yes. So does it only seem to be One A four. Now A four is those slopeys. They do don't they? Yes. And it's bad with this on lock. A three has, ordinary ones. Yes, they have that Like that. slope on. That's erm Scotsman. Why has Scotsman ? . Erm let me see, let's think of an example of an A four six. Well there's that one. Mm? Well well it is good but only . Well try using a star. Mm mhm mm. Well I don't think that's supposed Well it's flipping, that way. That way you can Well Henry could be . Mm. You know. If we're going to go to the quiz on Monday night we shall have to learn our way round yo and our A fours and A two six won't we? Erm I wanna I thought you knew. Shall I tell you what then ? Mm mm. Where these arrow, and the arrows that lead to two six two. That's it! Ah! Mm. We've used up all the six. And there's some up there. Isn't it two it's two O something isn't it? No. Or two one two. No. No mum. Cos you see, down there's Wales. Oh sorry! Yes, they're both Slower. north. So that's a four six That's what eight. Yes, I didn't see the other one. I thought that was a four. I found a four six O. Whose is that one is? Can I put one down? All's quiet outside. Yes mum . Er make myself a drink of water. Mm. I like the way the lambs have settled down in the field haven't they? They were making a couple of days ago, but I think they've got used to their new home. Well soon, they'll get used to me . Mm. I hope so. Well, they will if you do that. Mum, did you get a new ? Yes . That's what we were talking about after breakfast. Yeah. You buying one or ? I haven't got a very . Er, I don't know. What? I was go now going to . Oh you gonna, gonna put it back?? Yeah. Well if you've seen him. It's not usually on television Wednesday night. Well you can get the Lenny, Lenny Henry double video. Lenny Henry's Show double video. Oh I see. You've seen the advertisements Fawlty Towers. for the video. No! It was on tape box of the Chronicles of Narnia. Oh! It's listed on the back of the Chronicles of Narnia? Mm mm. Oh! I wondered how you knew. Inside where the tapes go. Are you enjoying your Chronicles of Narnia? Tt. Er I think Chrissy is isn't he? Well mum Yes. mm mm I don't, but, some bits near the end are too scary. Well I think you're a bit young to enjoy it, at the moment but er Christopher is. We must go and spend your book token so we can write to Gwyneth and thank her. Which reminds me you still haven't written to Geoffrey and Jean to thank them for your birthday money have we? So mum, I know I haven't. Or have you, which is more to the point. The other night cos I didn't like you wrote about telling Gwyneth about I don't like the Chronicles of Narnia. Well, fortunately she understood. What are you going to put in your letter to Geoffrey and Jean? And I don't know what I got from them. They gave you a cheque. Oh yes, that's right. I've put it into the bank and I shall give you the money. Now what are you going to buy? Books. You can get some books if you want but Gwyneth's given you some money for books as well. I'll get some Thomas books. There is quite a lot I haven't got. You could actually buy erm Trevor. No, Terence, Terence the Tractor to go with your set. Mm. Well, mum Cos Geoffrey likes trains doesn't he? You could write to Geoffrey and say say you've bought something to do with trains and should feel very pleased. I don't want to buy, I don't want to buy a bulldozer! What has that got to do with trains? Terence the Tractor's part of Have I seen that other , talking about Lenny Henry? I don't know why you think that's what . Oh. Strange child! Mum. Yes? What I want to do wha with the bulldozer I got I would like to poke it that shovel one. One of those interesting conversations with Thomas, like, which are better train wheels or tractor wheels. The caterpillar wheels. Oh yeah. Cos do you remember then Terence can get through the snow where Thomas can't. Yes. And Terence comes to Thomas' rescue, cos Thomas doesn't like that snow plough does he? No he banged it so he can't He banged it so that it would bend. He's very naughty. Yes. Because that's why he was cheeky. Probably cos he's puffed up in the snow box and comes to see to him. He was going to rescue Mrs . Was it Mrs ? Yeah. I think he . Sh he did. She was waving to him. It is Mrs . Is that the name? Oh we haven't read that for a while cos you read them to yourself now don't you? So I don't get to read Ah them any more. On that? Yeah. I still like people reading to me though. Six people still read to me. Quite a lot of people read. No oh. I don't often have people reading to me. Well you're such a good reader yourself now, you don't need anyone to tell it Wow! to you. You're quite right it is nice to have people to read to you. And you've read for me in bed before now haven't you? Oh! Oh yes! You've come and read me a bed time story when I haven't been very well and I've been in bed. Yes Park. And mum? I think I read you a chapter of er the the Bears' Picnic. Yes you did. And Chrissy read to me what was it? It was a Roald Dahl book. . I like George's Magic Medicine books best. Mum. Yes? I mum. What? Which was it? Was it Jack, was it James and the Giant Peach? No it wasn't. It was something about Crocodiles. No it wasn't. It was, it was James and the Giant, it was about this boy being ill-treated by these two old ladies that were looking after James. I suppose no I, I didn't enjoy that one but, I could see that Chrissy enjoyed it. Thought it was wonderful. Oh mum. Yes. I thought I thought you were on about a book that Yes? We're just going up to Eastgate Bike Shop to try and get a cable that just snapped Right. for the, for the mower. Okay. Right. Alright Dave? Yes dad. Do you want to go with daddy? Pardon? Do you want to go? Well we're only going up to Eastgate now Jane. Oh alright. But we'll see, we probably ought to go somewhere else. Where? Where? I think you need to go to the toilet Davey, you're wriggling. Go on. Dad! Daddy says go! I know you. I don't. Quickly! Off you go. Then go back to your game. And I'll be back in a jiff. I must take Morna's, I've still got Morna's coat in the back of our Yep. my car. Yeah. Well when you get back I'll you look after David, I'll go and see Morna. You're not doing ve very well . I'm not am I? You got two tens, a twenty and fifteen. Three ought to be England. Mum. Is two ten, twenty, is twenty, twenty and fifty what does it make? Ten Sorry! I was reading this about the quiz night. I think this is going to be too late for you children. The meeting starts at seven, the quiz is seven thirty to eight fifteen, then there's an interval and then the rest of the quiz is nine to nine thirty, well you won't be home till ten o'clock. No. It's no good. It's a shame cos you would have enjoyed it. Are all the que are, are all the questions about trains? No. It says,the quiz will contain some sixty questions covering general knowledge and not just railway so so that there is , not very good grammar,so that there is nothing for the family to be afraid of . Which is . Well mum, I want to go. Oh no, sweetie pie. If it had been the following week with school holidays but I, I do think you'd be very tired the next day. I wouldn't mind. And a pie and pea supper in the interval. A what of? A pie and pea, a charge, two pound fifty. Wow wee! Wow wee! Bring your family and friends. I think it means they're all just older family, I don't think it means six year olds. Mm. So you think, do they think I'm a baby. I wonder if daddy wants to go. I shall have to see if I can get a sitter for you two children. Now what were you asking there? I'm sorry, I wasn't listening. Darling. Did you ask me something? Er, no. Oh! I'm tired . I dunno about you lot coping with late nights, I certainly can't. I haven't had Toby out for a while. It's Toby's turn. It's a good tram isn't it? Mum. Mhm? It's funny, cos Toby's the only steam tram I know. Mm mm. Mum. Mm mm? You need to steer it, you never ste you with Thomas. Yes. Yeah. Mhm. Cos there are real engines in there. But, if they're, the real engines don't have faces. Yes that's right. And they think that was Melissico. Yes. Yes rather than er doing the talking. You're right, Melissico didn't have any. But it did. But, the real engine which is Yes. But mum What? er, this had that night er but, one, in one bit it said he said that night they di fa found that Melissico wasn't enjoyed talking to them long af till long after the stars came out. That's right. Yeah. Direct quote from the book. You did very well. No! No! From television. Yes but they take it from the book. They keep it as close to the book as they can. Yes. Well, no point in changing it. Oh mum. Mm mm? Do you know when Gordon goes rushing through the station ? Mhm. Well, well well in the book it said that, that, that that er this Gordon's er is, he's er, he's trying to do a Truro. Yes . But on the television it says, it doesn't do that. Er, well you know because you read the books It's only there very carefully. for today. Do you remember when Gordon went rushing through when he'd got his whistles out? Yeah. And the Aha. story books . That was one of the earlier stories. Yes. That was the first one where Dot gets cold. Mm. I like that book. I like the earlier stories better than the recent ones. Mum. I'm not, not so keen on those. I like the books, the original books that I had when I was a little rather than the new books. Books of Thomas? Yes. Mm. The pictures are nicer in those books. But mum er Well I think so. whose were they? David, Annie, May. No. But they belonged to my brother . Ah! They've give me that. Mum. I'll erm It is kind of but they len to le lend them their Thomas books Mm. and I didn't take the ones I already had. Well they haven't got any children in their family so they put Well but children. Mum. There was,the there were two they had that I had got. So er, they had The Big Engine and I, I've read that so but the small railway engines. Aha. Oh! I must stop yawning . I wish I could I wish I had a bit more energy this morning. Mum, this is only just a yard. Yes, you've got it looking like the yard. Where are the engines now? You could do the turntable in front. Cos that's how it is in the book isn't it? When they . Or facing that to go on the turntable. Yes. And mum. Mind your head lovey. You're very close You see the to that table. have you noticed Mm mm? that you know erm all like tracks which lead into the sheds Oh! Excuse me. Yeah . Well I was gonna say it didn't have erm have lines, they were on the side. Well that's right, yes. So that they can be turned onto the track like going to the goods show. Yes. They've got . Mhm mm. Cos Gordon wanted to go to straight through this and th the turn table. Can you think of another way of turning the engine without using the turntable? Of course! Can you? I'll use, I'll use Duck. Just demonstrate it for me. Mm mm. Have you ever seen an engine go on a coach like, kerb like that? What was the shape we were talking about yesterday? It's a triangle. That's right. It's got a curve on each end. Yeah? And what is the matter with that? That's it. And then it goes backwards. No actually it doesn't have a curve, it is a triangle but it's got a longer base hasn't it? It would extend so that it could just jump back. Right. To there. Mm. Up to the top. Then you can get an engine tuned without using the turntable these . Like Cos James is pointing, it goes backwards. You've got engines facing in opposite directions. Oh. Ha! I'll walk. Take one of these off mum. Oh! That's daddy and Christopher back again. That didn't take them long did it? I hope they've got the bits now. I really ought to go and help them seeing as we're . Mm. Oh mum! Mhm mm. Oh mum! Tt! Did you cut oh well you've cut them up alright. No! I don't want to chop them up . Yes. There's one man I was go was always good at playing with those lost my Yes . in an exam. You're nearly laughing aren't you? Yes, that's all we ever do. But then when you got a ta th the new one is that when you've got the tape recorder on you go wo ho ho ho ho ho! Though sometimes, when they've been smashed into and then I have to turn the other way, they go oh! Horror struck aren't they half the time. Somebody as asked to keep it. Well When James and Tara had it, d'ya remember? Oh yes. And mum Well, that's just in the brake, in the brake van. Oh that's the other one. Yes. The brake van. The face was on the other end and it was looking really surprised. Yes. What sort of face did he have then to make it look surprised? How did they draw a face? Er At school there. Er No. Make his mouth wide open and the the eyebrows Well I ha were up weren't they? Like that. Yes that's it. Do it like this? A bit No do it u the mouth open a bit more. It's only tripped up and trip over there don't you? Instead the eyes are looking rather smiling, they're looking surprised , or they're frightened. Or they're laughing. Mm mm. Mum. Mm mm? But but that, that, the one about the train Mm mm. was the er, one I, the one I'm doing too well. Yeah. Mum. The one that we never done. I dunno which goes er Check with the one that's in the book. No, not that one. It's er something, something Oh oh. something, something in and out of the Eagle. Well that's the original Pop goes the Weasel song. Yes. How did you get on today then? Er, well we've got one bit erm it was ten P and I gave twenty P. What, it was ten P and you gave the man twenty P Mm. and you gave one twenty P and you gave the man ten P ? It was ten P but I gave the man twenty P. Well I Well cos they'd run out of change. Oh I see. So you were being generous were you? Mm mm. So your father's got money to burn? I must go and turn out his pockets. So, so your dad's being generous then Said it was no good anyway? was he? No. So it's completely wasted? So dad's been generous has he? Well daddy was . Have you got so much money? I'll have it. Mm mm. I've got loads of money! Yes you have. I've got about forty five pound! I am still not going to dra I am no I'm still not going to buy Chrissy any! Cos that'll take the train, all my money. Your money comes out of the Post Office on the eleventh. Er, I'll do it. Mine? No. I meant with your birthday. Some of it. Ours is in the same place? Yes. On Saturday. And i Da doo doo doo doo da, doo doo loo, da loo da loo, la la la la, la la Well you can't get it done in the Post Office. doo la doo la doo loo You just haven't got any . doo da doo. And I have to get it out. Da doo doo da la doo loo la, da da da da da da la, da la da la da la Well you have to go through all this rigmarole of paperwork, you can't just go in and hand over your book and say please can I have five pounds now then I want to go and buy a book or something. In a Post Office you have to, you see, unless I'm misunderstanding it really, you have to well I might as well, if I go and get it all out from the bank . diddle diddle ee, da da da, da da. Ba ba . We can either take erm The reason I put it in the Post Office years ago was erm cos you didn't have to pay tax cos you're a non-taxpayer and everybody that went to a building society got it taxed. But then they also you can register as a non-taxpayer. Anybody can. You only have to ask. Well you have to be a non-tax payer, you can't cheat. Mm. But it's obvious at your age that you won't be a tax payer. Not that you've got I'm not one You could give all your money to me and say there I'm not tax paying . Yes, I must admit tha that's a possibility but er Ba ba ba ba ba ba ba ba ba ba ba da ba . Mm. No I like best. Why? Why's that ? I dunno. I don't know. Mum. Mm? I like the engines with the car's face, I like Trevor best. Mum. I'll be getting some of those. Cos Bill and Ben and Gordon and Duck . Well that's what I'm saying, why don't you use the money that Geoffrey and Jean gave you with al buy something and then you can write to them and tell them what you've cos it's a fortnight since your birthday, it's time you're writing to them they'll think you're a most ungrateful child if you don't write and say thank you. Well I never get time. Out. What do you mean you never get time? You've got plenty of time you just don't have the inclination. We what you never ask me. Oh I see well it's my fault is it? Yeah. You never ask me. Ha? You know where the writing pad is. You can go and get it out, you're a big enough boy now to fetch it. I've forgotten where it is. Play Monopoly mum? I knew you were going to say that. I'll show you where it is. Yes we'll finish it this afternoon. Why not now you can sit here? Because erm, I'm absolutely shattered after last night. How? I really am tired. Well I'll play for two players. It's my go. It is your go. that's why I put the dice on your I'll have a go then. Like that. The then put the dice back here so that then David can go. Seven. One, two, three, four, five, six, seven. Ooh! Double, oh that's on David's double rent. Yes! Double rent altogether. Cos he's got a How come? house on. I think you're going to win Da Christopher . We I was Why? You've got Mayfair. Yes, but you've got Park Lane and I, I've no way of getting a set now. All I can do is land on all your . Well David and I, when he was ill and got in bed, played the shortened version where you shuffle all the property cards up Mm. and deal them out face down,yo you, you deal them out to each other first. Not all the of them, just a couple. And that helps you get the game started. Yeah, that was quite good. Well I don't mean to shorten the time, it's better than playing all day. Mm. Well no, it does work. I mean, obviously we've been playing this game for hours. This is about the fourth time we've played Mm. on the same game. Oh yeah. What's daddy doing? Trying to fix the lawnmower. I think we should go and give him a hand. No I just come in cos it's too cold out there. Well you must put a coat on you know. No. Of course. Put a coat on. Yes. in the shop. But, yeah it was. It's so bright and sunny out there you forget that it's so cold as well. So we'll get wrapped up . I shall get these aren't they? The snowdrops are full up . Do you ever have many, get them ones in the that little house? I must get some more, some more out of. Is that your money you're buying for your house? I've got with this house. Sixty pounds. I just bought Eh, you're buying hotels already? Well there's no chance. It's only four hundred and fifty pounds for Whitechapel. Yes I know but And two hundred and thirty they're nice little earners aren't they ? Yes. Yes. That's why I get them. Yeah. Both of those Oh I, I two hundred and fifty, then the Whitechapel's four hundred. I always Da da da da, da da da da er er er. Da da, da da . It's David's go isn't it? Mm. Can you put them on his, by his top hat then so that's his Yeah but if hmm Yes I know it's very confusing. We're all together aren't we? Aargh! Why have I landed on I think it's on this did I pay you, I've I'll put it there till he next moves Okay. it. David go and blow your nose. You horrible child! I'm not horrible! Well, alright, you semi-horrible child. Mummy! Mm mm? Did somebod body say took a go at my place. I seem to have very little money. Dunno. Was he playing for me? Joan. Joan? No, that was last Saturday. Oh that reminds me, did you say you rang David this morning? Mm. And? He was in Don't tell me, he's going to help? Yeah. Look. Look. What's he doing? He's entering a competition so he wo he won't be playing this morning Yeah. and he's expecting some people to come round for his Legos. Lego. Yes I noticed He's, he's gonna be bombarded by calls. He's just, he's just put an advertisement in the paper. Mm. I noticed it this week. Sell the rest of his Lego. He's had, he's sold most of it. But Yeah. they're just finishing . he's sold a fair amount to us, remember? Mm. Only his hospital he's keeping. Mm. Come on, give that nose a good blow Erm still got the roads down there scenery bits. Er, do you want some more scenery for you Lego? Well if you do you can go out and buy some more if you want. Well I might do. Well what we really want is more roads. Like this Are you getting for the Lego? just er you'll have to buy all that thing for ten pounds. Oh. Erm what was I going to say? You see, we've got that board made and you just haven't played with your Lego much since have you? No. Is it because it, I mean can you give me a reason? You were so keen to get all that Lego and you've got tons of Lego and yo you're not playing with it. Any particular reason? Yeah but, yeah it's funny cos, cos it's funny cos I got that new Lego you didn't at all. No. No. No it's not that. Mm mm. It's just we got the board and it's taking up all the room in the playroom and yet you're not playing with it. Mm. Why? Is there some reason? But can we ju Well cos I got very little Lego. Can we improve it at all? I mean,wha what, what is it that you don't like about it? I just don't like it now. It's just that you were so keen. Mm. And now Mum. you've hardly touched Mum. it. Yeah. Can I take that Can I just it's this thing about this Lego piece I'm talking to Christopher. Mhm. This erm It's alright. No, it's erm because you, do the same thing over and over again that you find and no haven't got big lots of er, when you went to the small amount of the town. But you've got lots of Lego. Even, I've never seen it all set up at the same time. The police station, the fire station I think there was a harbour as well. Yeah. No. You've got I like the airport the airport. I know. I haven't got an airport, I've got an aeroplane and a helicopter, I haven't got an airport. Well can't you sort of build yo you've got all the other Lego that and the red Mum! I used Mhm. remember the, the red and the whites and grey Lego that I , you've got that, why can't you build something with that? Cos it's I can. mixed up! Why don't you make, build houses with that? Yes as long as you o you use it. I mean, it, it doesn't have to It's all been mixed up with the Well tha that doesn't the other one. matter. Why just don't you use all the Lego, build something. I mean, you can use the Duplo to build something couldn't you? Mm. Mum, the Duplo's up there. Chris, I remember when me and Chrissy used to play with it tha Du mainly Duplo but we had some other tt like the Lego. I'm just a bit disappointed that th there really is a lot of money's worth of Lego and you're not playing with it. He will.. This. What I'd like is the erm there's the airport Can you and there's this sort of airport monorail. Yes. It's very good. It's, it's la it's like a railway Yeah. in sort of Lego. This monorail goes around, it stops at the bo the bottom stage and it goes over the top stage. Mm. It sounds quite good then. But er It costs a hu a hundred pound. you wanted, you wanted lots of Lego, you've got lots of Lego station. now I'm, I don't feel like spending any more on Lego now Chris. And we can, Chrissy we can make a space monorail. Unless you want some bits from down there. Well we need some standing posts. That's what we need. If you're not gonna play with the Lego Chrissy, can you pack some into the boxes and I'll put that board away. Mm mm. Then we'll get back into the playroom again. Mm. Shall we sell it then? I don't know. Well I, I'm so disappointed. What sell all our Legos! Well Don't! that was what you really wanted. Do you remember that long letter you wrote at Christmas? Mm. I just haven't worked out No, Monopoly's better than Lego. Excuse me. Run out of. Dee dee dee dee . Oh I thought it was informal. I'd like to believe that er David! David wants to go to bed. I know he does. Do you want to go to bed David? I think you're as well on, on the sofa with er Why what's up? the rug. Go to bed. Go on then. Mhm. Not, not like him to ever want to go to bed truly. He had a late night Do you want your tea over there or do you want it No I'll bring it, I wanna go over there. We're going to be late to dinner tonight aren't we I think? Ah. The time's . Nothing's boiling. Well that's true. If we were you thinking of going to Health Chardonne? Well yes, because er A Only I thought if they deliver it it's cheaper than going to Scunny or Well yes, but we've still got the problem of erm But if, if we go in my car to fetch it I can't take the kids. I know. I know. Well, which means I can't come. I thought it'd be nice if we all went together. But you mean go during the week some time? No, I wasn't thinking of any time. Erm you could take two cars if you want to. No, I think that's a bit of a waste. I thought you might have time during the week to pop into Hull that was all. A lunchtime No. or something. I could come with you. Well I don't know. I really don't know. You don't know what a normal week is now do you? Anyway popping into Hull is a thing of the past isn't it? I suppose it is. Well how much are their delivery charges? Well I don't know. Ten, fifteen quid I should think. Ee ooh! Well it's worth asking anyway isn't it? Mm. If they'd left one of these out Oh. when we were down in B & Q Oh while we were there the other day. wouldn't have had to spend those hours Yes. finding somebody. Twenty two to, Hardpool Star garden compost . That's thirty four ninety nine. You see. I mean, all these, these grass cuttings erm from what Chris is doing now could go in. It's a shame just to waste it isn't it? B & Q growing bags. The only thing is, you can't find them. Cos you're filling up the weeder bin and I want well anyway,we we've got to get sorted out compost for it. There's some baby sweet corn left erm oh I might get They, they won't be very good. I'll put them in a chicken casserole tomorrow. I can use all these peppers up as well. With the sauce. Oh I need some more tomatoes. I guess Chrissy's coming in for something to eat. Well I called him but I didn't think there was a rush. No there isn't. Saturdays are going to take some, they always take some getting used to when the football season's first finishing. I don't know The erm ah I've got loads of mushrooms left, put those in the casserole, that's what I've got left . The B & Q conservatory, that one you were in the other day Oh yes. which comes in one size, twelve foot four by ten foot two. Oh! Want one bigger than that. Three thousand six hundred and ninety nine. Not bad. Oh! Erm talking about conservatories for which you need , I've read about the quiz. Yes, it starts at, it says on the front it starts at seven, and then at the back it says the actual quiz starts at seven thirty. Seven thirty to eight fifteen, then there's an interval which you have pie and peas, which is always good at the town hall erm, and then it's nine to nine thirty part two of the quiz. So really it sounds the sort of thing that'll be nice for you and I to go really just to get away from the children. Or do you want to go on your own so you don't have to get a sitter? But I need to be knowing cos if we're going out I'll have to That's right. Yeah. let the other man, the conservatory man know, it's not fair to not be here to . Mm. He's gonna be a pain in the neck! I know love. I mean there's no intention of letting somebody like that have a go. I was gonna do it myself. Well if there's no intention I may as well cancel him altogether. There's no point in wasting his time either. Well we're not are we? Well if we're not I'll ring him up and say I'll say er Hey we're going out and be,we we're going to have them build us one, I mean er my intention is I might get Stuart or somebody to put the bricks at the bottom. Yes. Sort of a semi do-it-yourself. But a it'll, I'll assemble it myself. Yeah. Okay. Cos Johnny can come up and give us a hand can't he? I could do the lot actually if it comes down to it. Are you okay with what I've put out? That ham and potato and salad. Yeah! More than enough thanks. I'll warm some of these, well I won't warm all of them. Right. Davey! Come on. Do yo do you want some ham and some peppers? If you get a jacket potato? I'll do it mum. Is it, is it old, old? Yes, it's the same sort of thing, and then it warms them up. No thanks. No? Oh! Chrissy! I'm not finished yet. Lunchtime. Stop it. He's done very well hasn't he? Stop the mower. Oh I haven't shown you how to do that. Chris! Oh what the heck! Well as long as he doesn't hurt himself. It's alright Chris. Dad's saying you haven't go you've done very well. That's still going but er But it come back to all the grass now. I can see, can you sha can you go and get all the grass off your socks ! Ah ah! He, says he's been in the wheelie bin and jumped on the grass Phil . Who? He says, he's filled the wheelie bin and it's go he's been in it and jumped on the top, so course his track suit is Well it's not it's not bad what you've done. got covered in grass. Pardon? I didn't do that much. I thought you had to push it? Oh no. . Erm take your gloves and just shake them outside. What's that? No I'll, I'll ha have another go later. I'll warm those up. I think I'll warm all those up because we might eat Bye. them all. Ooh it's cold! Well he's coming in. David! Come on! I shall hoover you to get that grass off. Thank you, cleaning these up. Hands washed boyo. I bet it's come again and I was dashing in to, I had about two minutes to Sunday Hey! night. And I wa as it was I was in the bread queue. Aargh! And queue up soon and get in there. Who complained? Either way, that's too late for the kids. Yes. But the thing you won't like it, it'll probably be John there. John? . Well he will be. Well aha and Simon and things. Yes, well, if you go, if just you and I go we're likely to end up with somebody who knows us. We have to make up a team though don't we? I mean, we can't do it on our own? But you, probably wouldn't want to be with John. Well yes but it will Ruth be going? And how are we going to make a team? I would doubt Ruth will be going. But it sounds as if it's a sort of family evening though doesn't it? I mean shall we take somebody with us? I mean, would Dave and Wendy want to go? Mm mm. I don't know. I don't really know what it is. But I'll read it again. Hang on. Read it again. We ought to be making our minds up. Cos if that, if you go on your own that's fine, but if I'm going we've got to get a sitter. Well it says, entrants may take part as individuals or as teams of up to four persons. Oh well, oh you and I can do a So we don't need you and I can do a team on our own then. Can I come as well? I'd like to take you Chris but it is a school night, I think it's going to be,yo it'll be ten o'clock before we got home. The quiz will contain some sixty questions covering general knowledge and not just railways. So there is nothing for a family to be afraid of . If it was er space then we need Chris because Mm mm mm. co we need Chris as our space expert. And me! As my Oh! And you, aren't you being What are you an expert on? What are you an expert on? Railways. Well that's true, yes. Yes, you're not bad are you? Yes. They don't even know who built the first engine? Who don't? The people at the quiz. Oh I'm sure Oh I should think they will do. The person who's . Definitely. Yes. Like you go number one,. Number one, who's Richard ? A person . Where from? Now, number two, he's a Cor England. he's a Cornish man. Very good. Very good. What was his inside leg measurements? That's English. It's English though isn't it? Mm. Who wants a tiny bit Yes, Chris. of cheese? But actually he built his first engine, I think, for a quarry in Pennydaryn Pennydaryn. Wales. That's right. And where was that? Yes. Wales. Chrissy's got it. For a six year old you know a lot about engines. The potato's ready in a moment kids. Dad. Mm. If anyone wants a little bit of cheese I'll do it. I know he, he broke the rails he broke in rails because some silly man was talking to him in Wales! cholesterol level . Actually I'll do a little bit more than that. Well that's Richard 's fault. No, no it wasn't he put on too many weights sunshine Oh no you can't have much cheese. The engine was just too heavy. Yes. What happened? Er er what? It it broke, it broke To, to, to the engine? the track, it split the rails. Did it? Yeah. Well yes be I don't know much about this sort of thing. You don't want because the any cheese do you Phillip? No thanks. The plate, the plate ways, the railways they had then were built for horses to pull trucks on. Thank you. And they di They fell off. they didn't know a lot about steel, they were made out of iron. Mm. You can have a And when he built his first engine it was made out of erm iron and stuff and was extremely heavy. I haven't done enough peppers. What am I thinking of there? Is steel lighter than iron? Well not necessarily Chris. Erm Is it stronger but It's, it's stronger weight for weight, you see, or well it can be in certain circumstances. Grab a chair there. Steel tends to be a bit more elastic. Oh. Iron do iron, certainly the stuff they used then, cast iron, was very brittle and Aha. so it won't stand shocks. Mm. So if you put a big heavy engine going down a cast iron railway which won't That might hit the railway, which won't be made properly Ah. it'll go and crack it. Mm. But I mean, having said that, there's lots of cast iron bridges around still,lo the one at Stamford Bridge is er Mm. cast iron and I mean, it's no problem in that situation. And get a shock. Ah ah! The steam engine coming through . Mm mm. And that railway that, little railway wi is made of cast iron. In the middle. I just said that. The one at Stamford? Near the old railway bridge. Which one David? The walk on one? Which one? Over there? Oh! This one here. No, that'll be steel. That was only cos you came Ham David? Yes please. in the, in the sixties Chris it wasn't erm so I didn't make any coleslaw, you like coleslaw don't you? So it's a comparatively modern bridge. I'll have some lettuce The though. there used to be a level crossing there. Mm mm. Oh yeah. Eastgate used to go right through down to join Hey! erm That's right. Anderson Street. Ooh! But you see that would have given, one, two, three, four crossings on that, within half a mile in Driffield, so they closed that one and put a footbridge over and erm thanks. I'll take that. I'll take that one for you. And three crossings in about five hundred metres. Well, that's about right, yes. So, you can imagine what it'll be like cos erm twenty years ago in the summer, well no, twenty five years ago That one. Saturdays and Sundays there would be trains every ten minutes going to Brid. Are you going to put butter on that yourself A darling? Attlington. Pardon? You've got your mouth full. Just wait. That's not right. So do, erm I'll get you some butter in a minute. They go every half hour now don't they? Hang on a minute, it's I think so. They don't take long. Oh excuse me! That's the damp grass. Mm. Dad. Yeah. Erm no they le Dad I said er well er, I'm, excuse me David I'm talking to Chris. Yeah, they're normally every half hour, but In the sixties when it used to be summer Saturdays and Sundays they were excursions, they weren't service trains. Some weekends like Eas erm, not Easter, bank holidays, August bank holiday and stuff, you'd have as many as they could get in. You know I don't I'm sorry, I was just, I was gonna pass that to daddy. And did you know that when, when they used to go to Bridlington you know, you know where the big signal box is at Bridlington, near B & Q? Yeah, yes Where the bus, and you know where the buses park and everything, that used to be all sidings right under that bridge that's got the weight limit on Yeah. for storing the engines and the coaches for the excursions And trucks. and they used to get so many And trucks. And trucks Dave. Well they didn't have trucks for excursions, they didn't take any sheep and cattle to the seaside for a day. But they erm The donkeys were already there. they used to, they used to travel them back to Driffield if they were full and keep the empty coaches in two sidings. It used to be down to Meadow Road. And they used to keep them there until it was time for people to go out and then they'd run them back up to Brid. So it was that crowded. How did you know? You know, you'd think things had changed a long time ago but erm I remember having Chrissy in that yard when he was a baby in his pushchair where and there was the coalman's horse and erm Oh at Brid? cart at Bridlington. You know, and guess what, I remember I can remember that. it was Edgar. Mm. You can remember? That's very impressive! Well he's probably seen the pictures as well but Seen the pictures, yes. And he's seen the . Yes but we had you there Aargh! Aargh! Aargh! Hot! Well it's not that hot if you put your hand at the side. I thought you would have known not to put your hand over the . Mum, can I have some bread and butter? I didn't, I just Bread and butter. gripped it with my hand. Mum can I have some Sorry. bread and butter? It's stuck together. I beg your pardon? Please. Do you want some of this? Do you want that piece or do you want me to cut you another? That other please cos I don't tend to bother with Yorkshire. Don't be silly! Mm. Jolly nice bread. Mm? It's much easier cutting that. Are you not going do all that? Dad! You're not going to eat all that? He'll eat as much as we can. growing lad . Yes. I'm a growing lad. There's your piece of bread. Do you want it folded? Or do you want it cut? Sorry Chris? Cut. Cut. Cut. Cut. Dad. Cut. What? When is the next ? Thanks dad. When is that? Next year isn't it Oh erm coming one. there's one in Eh? there's one in April, and it might be Easter. Erm I've a feeling it's the eighteenth. I there's That's the Saturday, that's the Easter Saturday. Yeah. And Easter, whether we're here or not, there's erm I think there's that train coming through here it is the model railway exhibition in York. That's the big one. That's at the racecourse. Oh yeah. And there's a swot meet at New Earswick on Mm. erm the Mm. Saturday. Is there any point in trying to go away for Easter now if there's so much going on? Could you pass the mug and I'll pour Chrissy a cup of tea. And of course the National Art Museum Exhibition reopened. Oh yes! We said we'd do that. Well I'll get the afternoon off then, if the kids are off. Yes. The children, oh sorry Chrissy I put you too much water in there. Well we're not going on the opening day. Well never mind, I'll pour you some . Why not? Set me straight. I mean do we want to go and stay with the children at camp or shall we stay home? Everybody in York will be wanting to go. Maybe we'd better aim for the spring half term to go away. Well do you want stay at caravan then? Well, I don't know we went, it depends on the weather I mean, we went last year at Well I mean half term and the weather wasn't very good. Yeah I mean lo yo I mean look at now, you could have gone away now. Right. Well it's just it gets dark a bi it still gets dark early and when we've got the children, I mean They've got all their chess sets and things. Mm. Mm mm. Yes but we tend to use it like even the light's not working. Mm. I found in Northumberland, the worst bit was it was just going out in the cold to the shower. I mean there's much better hot showers it was okay but then it was, and the Yeah but I mean we building was cold. we were just unlucky that was, that was raw. Mm. Well yes, what was wrong with it? Erm Pardon? oh yes, we never got to see the fields did we, cos the mist coming out? Mm. And whereas, if we'd been in the Lake District we'd have got a tan, so it just depends. Mm. Well okay, that was a time she'd been camping in the Lake District, Mrs did. What? And see where her socks had been while she'd been climbing. What? Erm, where I staying this week, Chris, was only about oh ten miles from Morpeth and, you know, not far from Annick and places like that. Well we said, did you not visit and Morpeth and Annick well we we went round a few castles in that area to keep out the rain. Ah! Shall I tell you what I, shall I tell you what mountain I, she climbed. Mm mm. Mount Everest? No. Mm mm. Not necessarily. Go on David. Is try and make up a mountain that's misty, so she looked at the map and began to climb down. Who's her? So Mrs . She was going climbing Oh oh! in the Lake District. and looked I thought he was telling us about a mountain he climbed. No. Can't you remember any of those castles up there then Chris that you went round? What? Where's that sheet? They're on the dining room table. Chris, David's moved them. I can remember one castle Rareapple. Oh well that Mm. That's not in the north east. I must admit, that's the one that always springs to mind bu was it Bamber? Bamber? Bamber? Bamber. That was it. I can Bambi. Bambi! And erm I went past Beamish yesterday Dave. Did you? Oh we, we was going to go to that weren't we? Well, it's up there. Yes we, it's on the way back from holiday didn't we? Yep. We passed Newcastle. And dropped in. Well that's right. That's where I was staying. as well,tha we went there didn't we? Yes. The thing that reminded of that is the erm you know how in the Leader they do day trips to places and it's Mm mm. it's usually the isn't it? Not there. Mm mm. And the trek explorers, they went on a a trip from York on the train. So they had They did? been for the day and back again. Do you remember going out to Beamish in, in, and in Do you remember trying to find somewhere to eat in Berwick? and in winter half term. No I don't remember that at all. Er Dad. And there was a pub, yes and tha and but actually We ended in that pub down the street. it was quite nice wasn't it? Mm. We were quite doubtful but the food was good. Dad. It's Mhm? I've been to a Beamish museum It was sea there's one of those motion's trucks. and you go and stand at those castle round parts and we went for a walk and there was a football match going on wasn't there? It was a beautiful pitch. No, no, no, no. And the walls were round it. And, and, it, it, it pitch. Oh yes, like when you drop down onto that bit. Yes. And then we walked further and then we found this pub to eat. And it was it was very nice. Where the Indian restaurant was shut with the windows broken on. Oh that was it. Yes. And it, but we, I liked that pub. I mean, you had where you, it was a hotel, you had to watch where you can take the children into the not that that's a place that we don't want to take you, there's places they don't want children. We had a knickerbocker glory. And places your mum doesn't want to take me either. Where we had a knickerbocker glo glory. Mm! Yes. Pardon? I had a knickerbocker glory. You can tell we were on holiday. Oh right. I'd have had that if I know what I'd had now, but cos I didn't know what it was. Well you did. Didn't I share it with you? Didn't you have chocolate cake or something? Can I have some salad cream please? Oh yes! There's someone at Skegness station. You mean mayonnaise or salad cream? Which do you want? Salad cream. That's in the fridge. Mum, there's someone at Skegness Station. What?? It's not the secret Mum. bits,Skegness, Skegness Station . In Skegness Station. There's a what Dave? Well you know at that little cafe that we went in and mummy and Chrissy had chocolate cake? Mm. By the side. Well,we No, no we didn't. Mm. it was very windy. In Skegness? Yeah, he's passing messages. But and,a at the station near Skegness called Skegness. The station near Skegness Called Skegness. But it wasn't, it wasn't borough? No! It was a railway station. Does it still have trains there? Of course it does! It's a main line. It's a sa Chris stand up please. You had your, who we who, who were you with? All, all three of you. You've obviously got to jog our memories a little further cos none of us can remember it. Not at Skegness? I've never taken you on Skegness Station. You've been on the miniature railway. Any more potatoes? No. No not the Are you ? No. Davey? No, you're not doing very well. To go with that. Dad. Mhm. Shall I tell you what one I mean? Remind us. Where's the butter knife gone? And, we went to the cafe, there's a cafe there. Wa was I there as well? Yes! Was the Had I been running? No. So it wasn't a day Cleneth then cos I . Unless it was . Unless you go back to the The first time it's only, you, dad, and me. But, the second time it was all four of us that went. No I can't think of anywhere we would go when we haven't got Chrissy with us. No I couldn't. Were you, in Was I at the ? No,yo you were at the juniors. Oh I know! In Barton. Barton! That, yes that's it. Well I haven't been to Barton Barton? Yes. We had a meal a you were at school and then we went to get It took Chris. it was really windy. Yes I remember. It was on Barton? Barrow. Oh that was it. Oh Phil! You know. No. Not Barton it's not Barton, it begins with B. He used to go Station. at the station, he used to, we went in Oh! Barnetby. Barnetby. That's it. I knew I began with B. Yes, he's right . Oh yeah. And it was very windy. And it was a station. Mm. He got there in the end. You were right. The first time we went without Chrissy, and the second time we did. Yeah. Well I think I can remember something like that then. Mm. Mm. It wasn't a cafe Dave it was the Station Hotel. We liked it the first time, it was a bit like No, it wasn't a hotel dad. Well it was a, it was a pub then. It was a, er dad it's a restaurant. It's an outdoor coach isn't Yo it? Then Sally used to take me there John and David. Like that one we went to in I know. York. Now that was the sidings that. And they used to and take me there . Yeah but it isn't the sidings! It is, it's like the sidings. Happy days, eh? It is, it i it isn't, it isn't near Shipton. Oh! A tomato Didn't say it was. Is it like the sidings built up like a coach? No. We need some more tomato, that's another to buy. Anybody want some more pepper? You have these It's a proper, it's a proper building like this one. Yeah, I understand what you mean David. Yeah, is the inside buil built like a coach? Which one are you talking about now? Farnby. Er Yeah, you said there was . well there are some seats that are built set out at different divots. We didn't bring you our darling i you can still see those. Anybody want more of this? Yes. Mum. Mum. Mm mm? We're near the counter. And then all these train things. That's right. Yeah. You were only little so you toddled over to have a look. British Railway that. Mm mm. Was he at school? Ah no. And you weren't even. He was yo you still hadn't started No. yet. He was at the junio he was at juniors and I was playschool. Well, I must have been in first year juniors. Well I went there. And then, we took you when you were on holiday. Yes. Yeah. It was my You didn't have any more that's what you did, he had to go back there with you. It, it was one of those chips and ju they just asked me a minute. Yes, yes they always miss you when you're not available . Mm. You realize they'd have been kicking out second helpings. Erm I must get in touch with Wendy because we vaguely talked about running on Monday night. Mm. Can't do everything on Monday. Oh gosh! Yes. Oh unless I run at at five o'clock like we us then you're not in are you? Oh dear. Erm Well it's gonna be a bit pushed. Getting him Ye yeah. put him in his Cubs Yes, you're right. We can we can't be going at half past five. Go tomorrow. It's just if we are going to get set up for it's a lot of money though. There's no reason why I can't get up to six miles again by Well I can run three miles. This one doesn't want to do anything too . And er Wendy's going to get the forms but sh if she can get them cos it's very hard . Got them. Well I could on Tuesday to get to the normal run. Mm mm. Off you go. It is more convenient if Wendy comes here. After you. I don't think there's gonna be that much left. Well I can boil the the kettle again. Mm. You're right. There isn't. I think I'll put the mower away afterwards. Well I was just thinking, yes, the weather's got much colder hasn't it? There's no, there's no point in doing The sun's gone. again. No well Mhm. it's underneath. Can you, could you pass the milk please? We'll go Right. down to, let's go down to work and update the the weather Chris. On which computer? The one that's got the the fixed one, not the portable. Oh. And I guess you could go and play Cats. Mm. But we haven't got the thingie though. Chris you won't be going out. There's one over there. Oh yes. I see. Er Put yo put your plate in the sink there's a . But time's flying Chris and you still haven't done the first violin, never mind second. Don't! I know, so so you want to play Cats do you? Have we still got the disks? Well I don't know. Julie's got the portable so whether or not Let's have a look. but it's, I, I don't want to go down to work for hours Chris. I only wanted to Just for a few minutes. Ah ah! Yes, I know you once you get games on machines. Stop it my Lord! Want some more tea? No thanks. Erm, I'll have something please. Tea, mineral water or Can I have some milk please mama? Yes. Just a moment. You'll have to watch the tapes. Can I go to did you say you wanted some milk? Yes mum. Is this damn well coming please? I think we can find some more milk. Mm mm. Yes. We're gonna need some more milk before tomorrow now. Dad, shall I tell you a joke? You can tell me a joke David? Darling. Gonna need some more milk before Er tomorrow. what do you call what do you get when you shake a cow? I beg your pardon? What do you get when you Shake a cow. Er er go on Chee cheese. Milk shake . Oh right, yes . Oh dear. And where did you get that one from? The disks are up there dad. They're up there. That's awful. Can I have some please? Mm. Ah yes. You'll have to have it strong though. Another spring onion, I should think it'll go well after your jam doughnut. Spring, I've had no onions like spring. Dad. Yes love. Do you know what? What? You know what? Oh he's not back on that one again. Mm. Can't watch that. Good grief! Thick and creamy smooth. The light taste of Hellmans real mayonnaise. It's the perfect complete to all types of food. Ideal on salads and cold meat. Ex it now. exotically different topping for fish fingers, baked potatoes, burgers and chips . Yes well you said something, you said complete, I'm sure that must be complement. Complement. Complement to all Ah. types of food. You like weak tea don't you Chris ? Oh! That's a bit awful. I'm gonna have to put something in that. I thought you'd been putting something in my tea for years. Mm mm. Who? Tea. Mm? Is there any cakes of sort? Wi Christmas cake, or chocolate cake, or birthday cake? No, not, I'm sorry. I haven't been getting Mince pies. There's mince pies, yeah. Mother Day cake. You don't have a Mother's Day cake. There's mince pies and that's it I'm afraid. Oh there's some Can I have a jam sandwich then please? Dad. Yes sunshine. Mm mm. Yes if you want to do it yourself Do you want to hear another joke? you may. Well if it's one of your jokes I'll, I'll listen but When, when do tomatoes go red? When they see the salad dressing? Yes. Erm, can you finish your lunch and then you can have a Scotch pancake. Mm mm. Can I have a Scotch pancake now please? Yes you can have it cos I'm not going to get round to eating so, there's What? there's only one left. What the pancakes? Well,. Da da da da la da, da da . If anyone puts the kettle o that kettle on to boil Right stick that in there please. There's something not burning Well that just makes an awful noise. Like what? Sorry do you want me to cu do you want me cut that Chris? Yes please. Dad it's for me. No, Chrissy's having it. Chrissy's having it. Yeah cos you haven't finished. You're gonna fall can you put the top on the salad cream please? I have a good Dad! Can you put these on my fingers please? That's me. No you can't. You said I can. No! Can you switch the toaster off, put the pancake in or I'll have a burnt pancake. We've just put it on. Thanks. Can you put that away as well Chris while you're there. Mhm. Anything else you'd like me to put away? No, nothing else. No, but I'd like you to get your violin out. I'm gonna . Where's your plate? Here. Ah ha! They're hot. What? They've shrunk . Ah. Oh! Ah! I'll leave it on. I'm not sure whether It's a bit big. You've got a knife. That's enough now David. In fact it's too much of it, I'll try and get . Mm. Yeah. Mm. Mince pies. Are you going to read the quiz thing again? Can we get sor sorted otherwise it's all I'll ever talk about. Well all I can say is, you'll probably get yourself there see if I can come along. Well let's start from the fact, do you want to go anyway? Or aren't you bothered? Well aren't we? Make a decision. Oh I mean we need to well, you can make it for me. No, I, I It's brightening up again. Yeah. Well, drink a little darling, then I'll top it up for you. Well Dave you eat the skin Where did you get the impression that it started at seven? I don't Mum. know. I'm sorry, it's probably me I'm,ma maybe it doesn't take that long. What time does it start then? Seven thirty. Mm. Aha! But we have a week to collect the kids from Cubs wouldn't it? I'm not going to Cubs. I'm making that tea. Well, that's right what I meant then. Oh yes I It was half past ten weren't it Christopher? So a sitter? Well ideally. If you don't, we'll both stay in. And do we, do we find some partners or do we do it just the two of us? We'll do as well with the two of us don't you think? Oh I should think so. Erm Oh that, a load of those came in the colouring bag on Friday, so I just brought them home. Well on previous experience er, that's not worth going to. Well I sa I'll put it on the pile,pile. I just thought while I'm doing Who bought this? Well, I ha I just bought two more. Okay. David, will you finish please. I want to tell dad, that I have finished. Well tell, tell dad then. Can you write me a story which has words that I can manage. I can write you a story sunshine, but will you finish your mouthful? Do you want some more tea Phil? It,it's still a bit naff . Not if it's like it looked before. Oh co I've put another bag in now. Tell you what dad, I'll read a book. Erm, you can read a book. Chris. Go and get the noise machine going. Come on. Let's get I want a jam sandwich. I want Oh ! Well make it, I did say will you make it yourself honey! Oh. You're a big boy now. No a jam sandwich. There, is that alright for you? Okay I'll get some Well don't you think he can do it himself? Oh well Go on then David, if you must. No. Oh. I won't have a jam sandwich. Oh. What you gonna have? Nothing. What's put you off? Nothing. I know you. What's gone wrong now? Nothing. If it's because I'm not making one you can make it yourself then. Right. The light's off. Look at the . Mm. Oh well! Let's get out a computer disk . Or or have it all ready Oh oh . Missed. You know when they said they were going scuba diving at eight o'clock and did we want to go? Mm. I thought they meant eight o'clock in the morning, but they meant in the No it's eight o'clock tonight. tonight. I can't say I'm bothered. Do you want to go? I'd like to go scuba diving. Well I suppose ah no, will there be children at eight o'clock? No. You do arrange some sort of fancy activities. Who? Who is this, Neil? Ian and Morna's lot. It's only in the swimming pool Chris. It's nothing erm Yes I hardly imagined they were going diving off Scarborough or Bridlington and I thought,oh no ! That's why I presume it was eight o'clock in the morning you see. Mm. But it wasn't though. Can I Can we go? go? No! Mm! You said we could do. I didn't say you could go. Yeah, you said You did. sh could we could we go? I'd like to go. Yes we could go. I was talking to daddy. Should we go? Daddy and I. But we're not. Hmm! I shall have an early night tonight. Chris it isn't a kid's event. Well are there. They're not. They're not. Ian and Morna They won't be, Ian and aren't going. They're going somewhere else. Where are they going? I don't know. They didn't say. Geoffrey said they're all going scuba diving. No. We No. said it was their lot, their friends that were doing it Chris, we didn't say they were going. Oh. I don't think. Anyway No they're not, they're going somewhere else. a I know, I know they're not I'm Can we go swimming today? No Chris. As soon as David's cold's better then we're going. That's all we're waiting for now. Well are you going to a swimming pool with a cold? . You get on with the noise machine please. I'll go put the mower away. If you're alright next Saturday afternoon Chrissy you can go roller skating at the sports hall. Would you like that? Unless we're well enough to, unless Dave's well enough to go swimming, in that case we'll swim. I don't want to go swimming tomorrow. Jus just finish your lunch please. Is this it? There's your tea here Phil. Oh. Sorry. Alright I'll let you off Phil. That's it as far as you're concerned with it. You can get down and wash your hands. Can you Just give me a list and I'll go and get anything. Mum. Yes. Keep that Walkman busy. Mm mm. Mum. Yes. Why's that? Er, Mm. Well yes we know that, but we haven't got one. We only bought it at car boot sale and there were bits missing. I did try and find the, the microphone that went with daddy's old tape recorder, the one that David broke to see if that would fit on. Yes. But I couldn't find that. What? Dad's got one in his car. Well, oh yes, but that's, that's for his phone so that he doesn't need a he doesn't need hands so he can hold the steering wheel when he answers the phone. Can we try it, when for five minutes? Well I think you should be trying your violin for the moment. Donus Engines. A special train one day Mum, I can't Yes? I can't read it. That's okay. Keep going. You're doing alright. You read and I'll A special train arrive one day and the Fat Controller welcomed the passengers. They locked everything in the yard and photographed the engines. Duck next minute I'm riding in his cab. That Railway So Society, he was trying to explain, they've come to see us. The engines said to Truro, he was first to go a hundred miles an hour. Let's get finished then we can go and talk to him. Oh! Said . He's too famous to notice me. Rubbish! Smiled . Come on! Duck found Truro at the coaling stage. May I talk to you? He asked shyly. Of course, smiled the famous engine. I see you are one of us. I try to teach them our way said Duck . up the clay pits dad. What clay pits? You know. Tell me about the clay pits please dad. Clay pits? Clay pits? Wha what clay pits are you thinking of? Any sort of clay pits. Most er, mostly Bill and Ben's. Bill Oh. and Ben? In Thomas the Tank Engine. Clay pits. Well usually clay clay used to be used for bread making. Still is to a certain extent. So lots of places like What's clay ? Barton-on-Humber, Burton Stava Broomfleet all had clay pits where they used to dig out the clay and cut it up and make it into bricks. Is that what you meant? Yes. And paints. Hey look at that lamb! Oh yes. Look, it's finishing off the rest of honeysuckle, can you see? Here are Chris, look. Look Chris. Can you see a lamb climbing up a wire fence? Oh! It's gone down now. Actually erm granddad's honeysuckle ha has just taken but of course if the lambs are going to come and chew it Chrissy! Back to the table please. I was going to tell you who was, who was in front. So, and dad it's also used for paint, paper, pottery Mm mm. and lots of other things. Ah, but what you're thinking there is china clay. Yes, and that Well that's what I was talking about Ah well china clay. china clay is called kaolin and i and it's a very fine clay when it's dry. And, and, yes they ma use it to make paper and, as you say, to put a thickener in paints and things like that. And po and pain and, and paper as well. And used as a medicine as well. Mhm. And used as a medicine? Not, not that we do, I know but Particularly with morphine. And medicines. Mhm. Erm what time does the place go on until? I don't know. About I mean seven I should think. Ah ah! Will I, so you'll get to see the end? Mm mm. Ah it's not important. Well it is. Mm mm. Well, he doesn't have to. Pardon? Well at least you don't have to. Dad ask me a joke. First joke, can you please blow your nose? Come on. Don't you want ? Come on! You're so blocked up. But this joke Mhm? You're gonna tell me one are you? What do you call Yeah you said a what do you call a boy who doesn't eat his dinner? I don't know. David. Mm. No! Mm. Not those sort of jokes. Any sort of jokes. But but they have to be jokes. Right dad Yes. first joke. I don't know any jokes. You do! Me Mary had a mi metal cow she milked it with a spout, she too Does he knows all the words, d'ya know? No, not all of them. Mary had a metal cow she bought it for a tanner and every morning just at six she milked it with a Spanner. Mm mm. And then there's the rude one. Mm. I don't really want to hear that. Mary had a little lamb, she also had a bear Oh I know that one . Every, everyone, everyone has seen the little lamb but never seen her bear. I I er But I haven't told you that one David. That's that I, I, you know that one with the metal You know, I can feel I can do is, Mary had a metal cow she milked it with a spanner, she took it to the market and sold it for a tanner. Oh well, there you are. It's, it's the same difference isn't it? Mm mm. Do you know any more? Nope. No. Do you? Er er The flowers are nice. Mm mm. You didn't even notice. What did the car I was just working out what there was in it. What did the car say to a train? I can go anywhere but you can't go training. Why can't a locomotive sit down? Don't know. Because it's got a tender behind. Why? Chrissy'll understand that one. Mm. Like a sore bottom. Mm mm. It's alright. David'll learn when he's older. Do you know any more dad? I thought you were gonna tell me some. No do you a do you, do you know any more about trains? Do you want some vegetables Chris? No thanks. Dad. Chris! Not so vigorous on the scraping please. Dad. Mhm? Be nice to have a joke from you. A joke from me? Oh God! I've told you the ones I know. You know more than three. Come on dad. The other lamb's getting tangled up in the other parts of that Russian vine's gone over. Mm mm. I wish they would move that because there's nothing I can do now it's gone over the fence. It's dropped it down, I didn't think there was much left. Mm mm. It's all, it's all dry and stuff. The trouble is that some of it's still attached and so it's going start erm bu butting again, growing. I don't want that. So when it does I'll know which ones it is and I'll sever it. Right. Mhm. Dad. Tell us another joke! Tt! I didn't think of that. I can't David. You know more than three dad! Knock, knock. Who's there? Doctor. Doctor Who? Hmm hmm. Knock, knock. Who's there? Doctor Ah! We've just done that one! No! Please! Alright. Doctor who? You just said it! Knock, knock. Who's there? The Avon lady, your bell's broken! The Avo Avon lady? Mm mm. What does she do? Can I get down? No. Sorry. Ooh Chrissy! What a noise! Pardon? Please may I get down? I don't know. Don't you want any more? No thanks. You want to go and see that don't you? Dad, I don't know what an Avon lady does. What does she do? I don't know. Mm mm! Oh! Well she doesn't come here. She fixes bells. No . Well what does she do? Guess can't you? She rings the bell, she rings. And she She co Okay. Thanks Chris. She's somebody who comes to the door and tries to sell you some make-up and perfume and toys and things. Cosmetics and things David. Toys! Er see la like er Sega Master System two and one. This er, and Sega Mast No, sort of toys connected like bubble bath and that sort of thing. Toys? They're not toys, they're bubbles. Well they're amusements aren't they? I don't think they're very amusing. Well do you, you love bubble bath. Oh yes. Can I have some in tonight? That wasn't quite what I meant. Yes he can, there's loads to use up. Yes. There's Chrissy's turtles. Teenage Mutant Ninja. I hate, I hate those You can have some more chicken Phil, Chrissy's finished. No it's alright. Give it David. Do you want some more chicken Dave? Er, no thanks. I don't. Mm mm. There's loads more gravy. Hey dad! Shall I tell you who put up those two poles. I can guess. I'll tell you. Mhm? Lenny Henry. Who's Lenny Henry? He's the one who presents silly T V shows. Oh! And he's the one like Frank Bruno. He's not as big as Frank Bruno. Lenny Henry Apparently in those new tapes, the Chronicles of Narnia that Gwyneth gave Chris but it's Mhm. erm there's some details about Lenny Henry and tapes in that. That's where he's got it from. Yes and Victoria Wood. Mm mm. Well I wouldn't mind the Victoria Wood one. And Fawlty Towers. Fawlty Towers blue. But we've recorded that Victoria Wood off er the our the television. Do you like Fawlty Towers David? Oh yes! I keep getting out the video and watching it. Mm hmm. Oh, ah ah ah . Come on eat up sunshine. If you're wanting to go out. But I don't think you'll get much time. I don't think, well there's really time to go out again. Where is David's ? I don't know. You said you would, that I'll be having a bath and then we can do that Mm. that old stereo. Oh mum! Mm mm. What you talking about? We're not. Dad. Mm mm? What do you call a bear, a a teddy with no hair? Bald. I meant, I meant fur. Fur? Furless teddy. When Mansell's lapped , he then has to lap Patrese. He's behind Schumacker. Oh! Mm mm! You know dad. He, I, it's a bare. Mm mm. Can you get on with your dinner, you've hardly eaten anything. I've eaten half the chicken. Well eat some carrots. Very nice. Dave, you're making some horrible noises eating. I know you've got a blocked nose, but really! Do you want some more? Mm. Plenty of grav there's more chicken. Well I, I well, I've had two lots thanks Jane, yeah. Could just about make a a soup for tomorrow. Are you in for lunch tomorrow? Yes, but I've gotta meet Marty at one thirty. So I'm told. Dad, shall I tell you a joke? Knock, knock. Who's there? I don't know, I haven't answered the door yet. Oh dear me. Whe will you remember me tomorrow? I have, no that was a longer one isn't it? Please dad. Will you reme Yes. Er will you remember me next month? Yes. Ne mo I meant next week. Yes. When I, will you remember me next month? No. Will you remember me next year? No. No you're supposed to answer them all yes. Mm. Oh. Yes, yes then. Now I'll have to start again. No, oh no David please ! Just, just accept that I said What? yes. Ma knock, knock then. Who's there? Don't tell me you've forgotten me already! Mm mm. I knew what you were getting at. Knock, knock. Who's there? Alfie. Alfie who? Alfie who goes round the town squealing through key locks. What key locks ? Oh. Key locks? What's a key lock? Key holes. Key holes! Mhm. Knock, knock. Oh! Mm. Dave. Less knock knocks, and more eat, eats! Oh dad! The garden's looking better isn't it? All that work. I better knock knock Yes, till next week. Ah no! I mean the grass was so long. It's much better now. Mum. Looks much This is wi better. Sorry. This is a joke for you. Knock, knock. Who's there? Ah sheep. Well sheep who? Well sheep who keeps go who keeps going round supermarkets saying shampoo. Oh! That's some obscure jokes. So obscure you'll have to explain that one to me. Well mum had some pictures Not with your mouth full sunshine. When you've emptied your mouth. It looks better for going around most of the edges and going over the grass. The back bed looks particularly good. The one It does. by the Yes. Well I mean it was a lot it was a lot of edging to do. I mean it was just the back though. Now if you'll excuse me a moment. I'll just watch the last few laps. How many laps are there to go? That . Look. Dad! Yes love. Come here. No I'm, just got sitting down again. Yo go on you can tell me this joke and then you can finish. But it isn't a joke. Alright. Well tell me whatever it is. No it's er, mum, shall I finish this? Mm mm. All my carrots I'm eating. I would rather you ate your vegetables, yes, rather than the chicken please. But mum I Yes? I won't go hungry. Well I hope you won't. It's down, down to those two cos of the Grand Prix on. Those two do like watching it don't they? If you can't, you can't so easily if you haven't got a better car. The Grand Prix. Hey yo! Camera. Get your show biz shocks of the they caught me when I was standing on my head. Well they've switched the wa water in for a motor. Come on, eat it sunshine. You do. That rhymes. Come on, eat up and then we can go and watch the end of the Grand Prix as well, can't we? I thought it was the Cup Final. No, that was this afternoon. Oh! Mum. Mhm? I don't want these carrots. A after I've eaten this carrot can I give up? Well, eat the carrot. And do you think you can manage some broccoli and some of those peppers please? I can't. You really can't? Well drink your orange juice then. And eat the carrot? Eat your carrot as well, yes. Eat your carrot and drink your orange juice. Please. I've just squeezed that for you. You need all the vitamins you can get with your cold. And you can't manage that broccoli as well? Alright. I don't mind you leaving your chicken, but I'd rather you ate your vegetables please. As much as you can. You can live without meat but you wouldn't do very well without vegetables. Sit down please. Don't get up from the table before that. Sit down and finish it. Could you pass your plate please? Thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you splodger. Mm. Mum. Mhm? Funny, cos we've never had cows in there. We have. There have been cows in the field. I think it was before you were born. And it wasn't for long, I must admit, that we had cows in that field but I think Mum we the sheep are best. mum, we had horses in the winter once when I was a baby. There were horses in the field when we came. And that was years ago. When I was a baby. That was nine years ago. No you weren't a baby. We had horses again well maybe when you were a baby. Yes er, I was, I, I saw a picture Yes. Yes we yes that's right. with dad holding me and the Cos you horse's head over our shoulders. are you sure it wasn't Chris as a baby? I'm su it was either me or Chris. I'd rather there were sheep in the field than pigs. Didn't like having pigs. Geese were alright weren't they? Except it wasn't very nice watching them disappear just before Christmas. Well at least they gave some to some old concentration We don't eat lamb any more do we? After things that we've seen in that field . Pardon mum? We've given up eating lamb lamb since there's been sheep in the field haven't we? We haven't had lamb for years now. We haven't. No. We only eat chicken. I no, we, we had it in the I think, Indian, Italian. No, we don't. Indian takeaway. Get chicken. Ma. Mum. Mhm? Mum, tell you what mum, do you like, have you ever tried eating pork chops? A long time ago, yes. Do you like it? I liked it at the time, yes. Well mum Haven't eaten pork chops for a long time. Mum. Yes? Now there's sheep in the field while, while there's sheep in the field, we won't eat lamb. No. I don't think, I don't think I want to eat lamb ever again. When there's pigs in the field we won't eat pork chops. Cos they'll grill crossly. We only eat chicken now don't we? And meat. Come on. You finish your orange juice and we'll go and watch the rest of the race. Come on poppy. Finish that mouthful of carrot. When I've finished my orange juice can I get down? Yes you can! Finish your carrot and finish your orange juice, then we'll go we'll go in the sitting room and watch the rest of the race. No. See, see who wins. Can I orange juice, only my orange juice please? Well you've got your carrot in your mouth, just finish eating it. Just swallow it. Drink your orange juice and then you'll swallow your carrot. You're a hamster you are. You store food in your cheeks. No, pouches. Mm mm. Go on swallow. It's awful cos Minnie keeps taking throwing her wrappers out, her food. Took it down to our bedroom and spitting it out! Does she? That's Mm. Is it a gerbil or a hamster A hamster. that David's got? Well wipe It's a hamster. wipe your mouth and you can get down now. That's a good boy. Come on. Let's go and watch the rest of the race. Hang on. Shall we bring the You alright darling? Should look where he's going, he's just bumped his head. Oh you poor thing! you jus he kept walking into the doors. He walks into the door of the . And he walks into the erm Door of the classroom. the classroom door. Can I move your violin music Christopher? Yeah. Well, all the Have you finished violin for today then? Yes. Well, you've only had two practices. I said he'll have to do a good one tomorrow. You've no chance have you? Well, well I know it's Cubs tomorrow and if we're going out as well. It's Cubs and we're going out, so Well I See that car stepping out Chris? I am if we can get a sitter. Where? What you've missed it now! What did it do? It started to slide. Have we been topping that up a little? Or have you just been very careful? Oh. Anybody want any well there's only strawberries. No you have those. Do you want some strawberries Chris? I'll share them with you? Yes please. Can I have some cream and erm Yeah. Oh Christopher! Look at the back, he's covered in grass. Look Phil! Chris if you're gonna roll around on the lawn after it's been cut the least you can do is give yourself a shake before you come in. How many more laps? We're not fast as in this. Shh shh shh shh shh shh shh. Not a large number. I got nettled. I'm not surprised. No, even with my gardening gloves on I got nettled when I was pulling at around that honeysu Well they're not very successful gardening gloves are they? Well no! The nettles are very potent. Mm mm. See two bolters , or whatever that is in It's nearly seven o'clock! I know that! Cos I've got to take these kids up for a bath soon er er you can stay Well I down here if I'll record May to December but I'd like to watch Why? You watch it now. No. Cos then you won't see it. Why shou But I'm not bothered Jane. Why should I be the only one that suffers? I'm not bothered about that. I would rather wa yes, well you can suffer it all with me. Erm I'd like to watch Lovejoy please. I thought last week was the last one? Last one of the, but they're showing one of the old ones and we, I haven't seen it, so Oh. Doo doo doo da da . There's nothing else on after that. We've got a clear evening after that. After that? It'll be bed time! It'll finish, what half nine? Well I dunno. I hope there's an extended News. There's bound to be. Turbo goes Senna. would you like a couple of Pardon Chris? Who's Pa the the one the one ran out of the crash on this ? Well it's happened, before now Chris. Mm mm. Silly things, like crashing, running out of petrol. Running out of petrol just before. Bit of a daft time to wait to, to . What did he say? Consummately easy win? He did indeed. Oh that's a good picture they've got there isn't it? That's really constructive. That looking at a bald head, a stupid girl, and something else. Oh! But why is she stupid? I bet they show other people all that. Getting her head in the way of the camera. So what happened to Senna? I know he dropped out, but why? Don't know. Oh. Ran out of steam after eighteen laps. If we're going to do any more quizzes this is the sort of thing we're going to need to know to do well on the sports sections. Well I don't know. They don't do interesting sports. They did the firs They do obscure ones like golf. ah but the, the first ques the first question on the sports section was, what team does Nigel Mansell drive for? Oh. Did you get it right? No, we could only come up with, I forgot, but it was something Renault, and we could only think of Renault. Williams,Will Williams. Yeah. But Chris knows. That's Renny. Yeah. Here are, look, look, this groupie's getting into everything. Erm Senna ma drives a MacClaren doesn't he? Yes. Yes he does. He's got Brazilian on. Mm mm . We'll go to the favourite bit in a minute Chris. What? Your mum loves it. What? Standing on the podium and they spray champagne over everybody. Oh I hate that! That does annoy me! Breaks your mum's heart that, to see all that champagne thrown. No it's not the waste of champagne, I feel sorry for everybody getting so sticky. Oh . Ooh, ooh ooh ooh ooh ooh ooh! I know what it's like trying to get alcohol out of your clothes. No don't tell me to have my dress cleaned. Last time Senna had something like hundred and twenty didn't he? Pardon? Sorry? Last time Senna had something like a hundred and twenty . Erm yeah probably he did have . Looks like the sun was shining there Chris. Mm. Oh she's out there again! Where? I wonder who was sponsoring the race? Mm? You can afford to be can't you? Mm. Why's she so We well yes she's why's she crying? she's obviously in it for the bet. She must be the cameraman's dau Here it comes Chris. Mum's favourite. she must be the cameraman's daughter. Three bottles. Not gonna show you mum. Ah they'll show it on the news later on. Cos that'll be, that'll be the bit they show on the news. About Senna retiring. Oh, you saw the first I want to see all the exciting bits I missed. Well, won't they have highlights on later? This is the highlights. You mean, they didn't show the full race? The full race was run at some obscure time today so When I listened to the six o'clock news I was hoping you wouldn't come on the radio running through and tell me No, oh do I ever? They said it was half way through Yes, well that's a at the six o'clock news. well, yes sh yes well, this, well this was only the highlights unless the last two or three, no the last two or three parts have been live. Yeah, on the six o'clock they said it was half way through and Nigel Mansell was the lead and I thought you were watching it live, so I wouldn't just come through and Mm mm. Right. Chrissy go outside and shake the grass off you now please, off your back. David! David ! Are all, are all the bikes put away? Yes, tired. We Skateboards, everything? Last time Dave. David ! We're going to have to have this room tidied up tomorrow. I hope Morna will sit, but she might not mightn't she? Well you haven't asked have you? Aren't you go Well aren't you going to ring her tonight rather Yes. than wait till tomorrow? Well I forgot. Well she's probably tired, she's been out two nights in a row. I'll get her tomorrow when she's feeling a bit fresher. Then she says no. Well I daren't ask Susan again. Daren't. Oh no, we're not asking Susan. It's getting expensive getting Susan. Although the money's not important, it's just that you can't keep asking a girl that age to come out. Are you ready? Are we going upstairs? Right! Ooh! Mind your head. Come on boys. Can I have some bub Yes you can Yes, course yo have some bubbles. Come on. Yippee!putting in some bubbles in the bath. I'll get . Why is two thousand three hundred your favourite number? Because when that parcel came from Gwyneth you said that I think probably two thousand three hundred mini-bites in it. Ha! I don't know why, it's funny, two thousand three thousand, three thousand . Are you happy now? Yes. It's not hair wash night is it? No. His hair needs cutting though, look at it. Oh I'm not bothering. No. I'll do that on Tuesday. Too late when they've got bubbles. Yes. You don't have bubbles when you're gonna to wash your hair. Come on! But, but ah ah! Mum can you tell jokes in here? Yes, course you can tell jokes. Is that tape on? Yes. You don't worry about that. Come on! Mum. Get undressed. What, what did the policeman say to a bath? Well I don't know, what did the policeman say to the bath? You're on top of the pipes. No, he no well what did the shoe,sha what did the pop star say to the bath? What did the pop star say to the bath? Not one of your obscure ones are they? Come on. This is like your isn't it? You're on top of the pipes. You're on top of the pipes. Don't now I don't see that's funny. Well he got it. You're on Top of the Pops. Oh oh! I see! Oh! I see! Oh, it's a play on words. You're on top of the pipes. Oh. See? Yes, actually it's quite good that Well in an obscure sort in obscure of way . There's lots of it there. Yes. Well yo er yo just remember we've got to get washed . Dad. Yes love? What did the bath say to a policeman very moodily? I don't think I want to know. You get into Well it says this bath this minute! Yeah. And the and then or else I'll open my plug and water'll come out before you get in. Mm. Erm, that isn't a joke. No, I don't think it was funny. Well the water's right round there. What did the policeman say to the bath? You're going What did the policeman say his tummy? I remember that one. You're under a vest. You're under a vest. Yeah. What did the policeman say to a woman? I don't know. What did the policeman say to the woman? Dare I ask ! No. What, what was the policeman say what, what did the policeman say to the woman who was having a rest? I don't know. What did the policeman say to the woman that was having a rest ? They said, mummy, move yourself! No. No. Well go on then. You're having a rest. You're ha you're under arrest. No. No. You were trying but No. it's not very good. Come on! Get into the bath. Come on, get in the bath. And all the new ones I've brought out. Try But the water first. Mm mm. Cos it's . Course it will be, I did it. Get in. Got bubbles. Oh . I'm going to sta all that's for the wash? Right! Cos it's chitty Cos it's what? Chitty. Are you saying Chitty Chitty Bang Bang? Well I can spell chitty. Well go on then. C I H T Y . No. C Ah. You wrote down all the words in your school book didn't you? I noticed when I was at school the other day. And I had to cross them You ha out. you had to, why did you have to cross all the words out? I thought you'd be Cos she didn't want the song. Ah ah! That's a shame. Well it's a C H I Yes. Yes. What's next? Y No,T T Y . T T Y . You've spelt it correctly in your book. It's easier to spell when you can write things down isn't it? Rather than still, you're only just six. Your spelling's quite good. Mum. Yes? Did you like my bit about the chip in Chitty Chitty Bang Bang? I did. Yes. I meant, about the, the one about the rockets and Manchester. Mm mm. And about that boat called Chitty Chitty Bang Bang. I'm coming into your school Come on. tomorrow to help. Get on. I can't No! Is the water too hot David? No, I was playing the bubble . I must admit, with that amount of bubbles in bo look at your toes peeping out through the bubbles. Look ! It does look funny . I think you better get a move on, it sounds like your brother's coming. Doesn't matter. Alright. I know. Oh, yes, he does look like Father Christmas. Ready? Mm. See if your mum can catch. Ooh! No. Look at that lovely egg. Yes. She missed it. Can you I'd like can we put on that side because I think that's where to keep it. I don't want to lose that again. Do you remember when we got it? Yes. Pantomime It got, we caught it. We caught it. Yes, it was really good. And these so you can catch eggs. We need to waggle it. That's better than ca catching the eggs is better than catching the Wagon Wheel. Yes, I think so too. Because he only ever, he only threw one egg out of the audience and we caught it, whereas at a, every year he throws lots of Wagon Wheels out. Oh oh. Yeah, and it's both of them. Mm mm. But he only ever throws the one egg. Come on sa move it boys! Dad! I want, oh dad! But we've only just got the bubbles in and the soap'll dissolve them. Yes it does, the soap does dissolve Mm. Erm yes. So it's that way. Well it does. It says in the . This is a really good bath! Is it? Yes. It's the best bath I've ever known. Ha! Ha! Ha! Very funny Chrissy. Yeah, very funny. Oh! Dejection of Dejection Right Davey Ah! You're still covered in grass. Look at you! What? Goodness me! Been carrying the lawn around with him. Oh oh oh oh . Oh well I look out onto the window and see that it's Wah ! just mud. Right. Shall I go and get clothes line ready? Ah . I emptied there with all the erm lawnmower and everything. Then I can peg you out to dry. You don't want to, cos you're not really no good David. Two lawnmowers going at the same time the neighbours must be annoyed. Yeah, and I was trying to listen to that lousy interview. Well you didn't tell me. I didn't realize. I did try. Well, as soon as I realized I stopped. No you didn't, you ran out of petrol. Well I would have gone round the back again. Mummy. On the radio? Is that why I went out of That's, I was, I was, I was listen I was listening to Neil Kinnock That was why he shouted at us to go away, he was listening to . promising us this fantastic new world that isn't gonna cost us any money. Oh . Well I And I, and I believed every word of it. Ha! Ha! Well, I couldn't know that, I didn't know. Do you realize this time next week we'll know. Pardon? The result of the general elections. And the Conservatives will have won. D'ya think? Hopefully. Why not? Do you know how I want to be the Prime Minister of next year? Yeah. Next Er year? I would give it a year but or two sunshine. Well, about four years . And why do you want to be the Prime Minister? No. He's gonna tell you who he wanted to be. Oh! I thought you said he wanted to be. Alright. Who do you want to be the Prime Minister next year? Er er President President Gorbachov. Oh yeah! Oh! Yes. That's a really intelligent suggestion. Yes. Well yes, that's very good. Er, or Michael Heseltine. David do you know David, he, he made Mrs Thatcher resign. didn't he? Yes. Yeah. In a way. Unfortunately. She can still become Prime Minister though can she? No. No. Oh. No. But, well she could Well in theory, yes. she, she's going to but in practise, no. She's dropped out now Chris. she's not going to resign as an MP this time, in fact, she's in America now. Do you remember how erm Go on David, get on with soaping now love. David heard that Mr Major was going to be Prime Minister and he said,surely it's Mrs Major . I didn't! I, I, I think Er and Chrissy, and Chrissy said to me, I didn't realize a man could be Prime Minister . Quite so, I think if Kinnock But I if Kinnock gets in you've got an old woman so you'll be right. I think that's fantastic! That David, they thought But I thought it was that women could o only women could hold the top jobs. No, I thought if it was a man it was a president and it was a woman it was Prime Minister. Oh yes,yo you're destroying my belief in what you were thinking about. Cos I thought you thought only women could Come on David, soap please. rule. Before your brother gets in. Well I thought Come on! No ! Have they got the wax work up yet? In the, that hall somewhere, I can't remember where it is. Madame Tussauds. I'm not sure. They have a wax work of ma Mrs Thatcher up and erm Mis Mr erm Major wouldn't go there till they erm so that, they've still got Mrs Thatcher's one up. I don't know. They're both Conservative. Mm. there's more bubbles down your end. Mm. But it's Cos I'm getting cold. Right. I'm going to record erm Cos Chrissy's a programme. getting in here. Right Jane. Just watch it! Behave! You can get out now Stop it! David. . Pardon? Get out! Oh! Are you allowed to, recording all this on your personal stereo? Get off. Shut up! Ah! Beg your pardon! Sorry. You will be! That's one thing you don't say. Here. Dun dun, da dun dun, dun dun diddle diddle diddle diddle . Get back in before he, can I He's erm have some more water in? he's, he's put you the bubbles at your end Chris. Go on down. Can I have some more water No. in? You're not staying in here all night tonight. Come on. Get on that end. Oi! Oi what? You hit me. Aha! You should . Right . Get your attention Chris. Dad said Shall we try another one? Dad. Ow! Dad's just jealous. Dad's just jealous. Of what? Show your muscles David. Go like that. Do you want one David? Mm. No! It's a good one. I'm a weakling aren't I Dad? I know that. You and your mum too, I know. Come on Dave! Use the soap properly, then give it Chris. A feeble five. No he's not. He's a silly six. Mm. No that's in the there's this detective erm there's these, there's these detective book and th there's a girl, detective girl Sam, and erm her e the Feeble Five headed by Steve . So, what's Er that, a take-off of the Famous Five? I don't know. But er and if sh she's in the last book, she tells how ugly erm, erm Steve was. Er, but erm she wouldn't bother to she'll be getting her e old age pension before she's finished. Mm mm. Dave! Stop it! Come on, sit up. You've gotta be out in half a second now. My shoes are stuck to the Well that's good. look, this part . Right plonker let's do that. I'm not getting out yet. I beg your pardon? I'm not getting out yet. Aren't you? No! Oh no he's not, he's, he's gonna get out in ten seconds. No I'm not. Here are Chris. I'm going to get out in three . Ah ! Get off! I'm going to get out in I beg your pardon? Ah! Get off ! Dad Ha! get off ! Get off. Dad. Right! You dare! Bu bubbles from fifty yards. Doo, doo dee doo . That's it Dave. Come on bubbles him. Get off ! No, no, no, no. No! No ! The more he says no the more you can bubbles him Dave. Dee da dee dee dee . Come on. Right? Yeah but that's not fair! Of course it's fair. Get back in there. Well you're not allowed switch the tap on. I only flicked water at you. I might turn the cold tap on you. Come on Dave. Yeah but I didn't No that's Chrissy's towel. Sorry. Wrong one. And that. Ah ah ! And he's, he's breaking your arm off. Stand up David. I can't go out, I've only just got in. Dave! Up! No oh. Now! Now! Now! Ooh ooh! Up! Ow! Chris no! No! No! Alright Christopher, you've learnt the clapping trick. Now come on David, up! No I haven't dad. I didn't tha Go on, stop that whistle Chris. Dave! Up! I can't after all that whistle. Wurgh! Urgh! I still can't. Come on then. Ah ah! Aargh! They won't Come on. do it . Come on. Oh God! They can't get up. Stay in there and the water'll be alright. Chrissy! Just leave be quiet, leave him alone. David! Will you please get up now before I, there's trouble! Ba ba ba ba ba ba da da da da da da ah . Can I have some more water in? It's not really deep. No! You're not stopping in. Well it's cold. Well, that's your fault for coming up late. Yes but you put the water in. Ah. Mm. Come on. There, get yourself dry. No. Cos I was left alone . La la, la la ah ah ah ah Get on with it. Come on! ah ah ah ah, la la ! Come on dad, help me please. No, do it yourself. D I Y, just being here, do-it-yourself. Just cos you're brain washed with television advertisements Chrissy. I'm not. Cos you keep going on about it. Mm. Mhm. How about ba er how about ambers how about Andrex. Has anybody heard the weather forecast today? Yeah. You, you were listening to it on the radio. I heard you listening and I thought oh she'll probably wanna tell me if there's anything, it's that the warmer airstream or something. Yeah, I, I can never, I can never take in the rain check . Oh! Unsettled that was it. And then more showers. Come on, Chris. Get on. Ian McCaskill's trying to tell us what the weather forecast'll You wouldn't be like for Thursday and I'm sort of thinking, why Thursday? Then it suddenly dawned on me, why Thursday. Right. Come on! Move it! Yeah but you did the weather all sunny on the computer. Yes, but I haven't been to work today. I Mm. e I read it yesterday and it was gonna be alright, it said fine. There's only one sock here, where's your other dirty sock? But that yesterday dad but I thought it was today. Well I expect the whole thing needs washing doesn't it? Pardon? I thought it was today you want on the computer. Yesterday we went. I know. She ee shh. Go on Dave, get on. Chris. Splash this splash over the splash over the bath. There, a really big splash! Mm, whoosh! Well I'll do that. I'm was having on mine. Alright? Which one's yours? Are you a Smartie one? Yeah. Well go and fetch it then. Right. There's a a thing there. Do you want any more drink? No thank you, I, please let me just finish clearing and I'll, I'll get it finished off quickly. You were telling that Judy, Julie. Nothing. She said she was just having just the usual drinking gear and er Well I'm eat biscuits, and I don't, nothing else. I haven't, I haven't any biscuits have I? Well you'll have some Kit-Kats or summat won't you? Nope. Breakaway? I think I've got Breakaways. I want to put the disposal unit on so can you move this? Come on sunshine, come and sit with me here. Right. I'm ready. You're ready? What are you going to do? Well, first I need a light of concentration Oh light helps you concentrate does it? Yes. Go on then. Have some light. That's sit down! No next to me here. Oh right. I'm coming. Just leave that here. Right. Right. Now what are you going to show me? I'll tell you. Right. One, plus, plus one. I'm taking some ones. Oh I see. That's how you set that up to do that is it? Yeah. Who showed you that? Mrs . Well I didn't know that. But She's getting a job at a different school now. Cor! Has she? Getting a job. But, you don't need a machine to do that. You can count just like that. And, and, well I'm just showing you them. Right. So Here. Yes. Seven twos. That's two, I got, got it, got it. Right. But you can count in twos. Of course I can! Two, four, six, eight, ten, twelve. After twelve? Fourteen. Then? Sixteen. Then? Eighteen. Then? Twenty. Then? Twenty two. Mm. You're having to think about it. Off then. Clear. So can you do ninety nines? Keep adding ninety nines together? Wait! What's two ninety nines? That's right. Oh! No now it gets useful doesn't it? When you're dealing in bigger figures All the than you can do in your mind. all the, all the numbers. Mm. Right, read me that number. Two hundred and sixty nine. Start again. A hundred and two sixty nine. How do you get that? I number one is, what does it say at the end? Nothing there. Full stop. It says, two, O, seven, nine. Oh. Two O seven nine. Which is? What does that make? It's the number of a steam engine I've got. I'm not bothered whether it's a number of a steam engine but how do you pronounce that number? Two hundred a No. No. two. If it was that number it would be hundreds. It's bigger than hundreds, so what's that? Er thousands. Right. So how many thousands? Two thousand and seventy nine. Well you got there in the end didn't you? Right. Right. Now it's even more difficult. Even more difficult. Equals Yeah, very clever. You can add up in, what are you doing up, in tens? Tens. You can do that. Ten, twenty, thirty, forty, can't you? Yes. What comes next? Fifty, sixty. Then? seventy, eighty, ninety, twenty Ah ah! Ninety? A hundred. That's better. And add up in hundreds now. A hundred, twenty No. A a hundred billi No, start off Erm with a hundred and then add another hundred what do you get? I'm trying to work my way to the end. Now you're being a pickle! Not, not with the machine. Using your own head. Add, add hundreds up. Come on. What do you start with? A hundred, a hundred and one, and No. No, no, no, no! I was, I wasn't meaning you to go up in single numbers I was meaning, go up in hundreds. Start off with a hundred. Yes. A hundred. Then add, add the same again. Two hundred, three hundred, four hundred, five hundred, six hundred, seven hundred, eight hundred, nine hundred, ten hundred. But what's ten hundred? A thousand. Right. So why didn't you say that? You didn't yo I, I did. I was expecting you to count, nobody says ten hundred. Do they? No! It always goes onto the next number. Every number ga always goes up to nine. Then it triggers over into another one doesn't it? Yes. Now what were we saying the other day? You have, units tens, hundreds, thousands But Dad don't you? but three er there. Check that number. Ha! That was stupid. Yeah. Mm mm. So Mrs was showing you how to do this? Right. Yes. What, what else have you learnt to do with a calculator? If you had four things Yes. If I give them and you wanted to divide them among four people Yes. how many would each person get? But I don I, I, I didn't quite get the question. If you had four things and you wanted to divide them between four people Yes. how many would each person get? Two. No, one. That's better. Now you did that without a calculator didn't you? Oh I see. Right, now this time do it with the calculator. So you've got Four turn it on. Turn it on. You run out of light? There are. Now you're on. Which figure do you want? No. No. You're dividing. Which one's divide? That one. Divide by Four. Yes. That's right. Equals? Right. Now that wa that time, that's easy. That just proves what you already know. Right dad, I'll show you something else. No. I was going to do more But I wa I want to show you something, that's all. Go on then. Nine, fifty six square root. Er Who taught you that? Well, I lis no one. It's Mrs said to Mark Just a minute. he, he, he was getting the controls wrong. He pressed square root instead of equals . Yes. And so you've discovered Eh! the square root of ninety six is nine point seven nine, seven nine, five, eight nine. But do you know what square root means? What? Well the square root of a number Yes. is the number which if multiplied by itself Yes. gives you back the number you started with. Take, for , the easiest one is four. The square root of four is two. Try it on your machine. Right. What do I press? Four four, square root and it gives you two. Because two times two gives you four. Try the square root of nine. Just press clear. Yeah, I just press this one. Yes. Clear that bit. Cos it clears the whole mind. Right. What shall I press? Nine square root is three. So if you multiply three times three you get nine. Now it's easy when you deal in numbers like that because if you go to sixteen Yes. the square root is four. Yes. And if you go to twenty five the square root is five. That's the number which multiplied by its self Right. gives you the number. Now, now it gets difficult when you come to a number like six. Oh yes. Try and find the square root of six. What do you think, have you an idea of what it will be. Don't, don't press the button. Six. Er er What, what number do you think you'd have to multiply by itself to get six? Three. No. Three times three is? I don six, six. It's three. No. Three times three. I don't know the answer! Well look three three and three. So how many have you got? Ten. No! Plonker ! You've got nine. I'm just going Anyway to check. So, there you are. It's two point four four nine, which really, is very close to two and a half. Which isn't quite right. Oh that, well that's the square root of the other one so you're, you're going to smaller square roots every time. That gets very difficult. Right. Right. So clear all that and go back to what you wanted to do. Right, I'll show you. Ten square root is Three point one six two two seven seven six. Right. Eh eh. Four hundred and fifty six square root is twenty one point three five four one five six. Very clever. Useless for you though. You don't really need that information do you? Well dad! So what, what, what sort of information do you need? Tt. Counting information. Well, if you went out doing your favourite hobby. Yes. an engine. Pardon? Getting in an engine. Driving an engine. Now how would sums come into that? What! You can't get sums in an engine's smoke box. Mm. You could if they would burn. Well you co I, I want to get clever with you. Oh I thought you had been. Shall we turn that off now then? I'll get on City News there's gonna be something about trams in Manchester somebody wants to see. Well is it the new ones or is it, on the television, or on the radio? Yeah, on, on the television. Do you want to switch it on? Do you want, no th are you interested David? Yes . Course I am, in anything like that. Well I'm, I'm going up for my shower is that okay? Okay, off you go. I'll come up soon and despatch David. Sorry? Oh! What? Is this the first part of the news or the second No. bit? It's the second half. So there won't be much more? No. Oh no, I mean it's about another another eight minutes. Right. I thought he'd want to see,take my shower. Yes, off you go then. See you later. Right Dave, what do you want to do now while you're waiting? Get really clever! So how are you gonna get really clever? I'm going to get two sheets of paper and two pencils . I haven't got time for a lot of stuff. Don don't be getting a lot out tonight cos you've got Julie coming. They're not a lot anyway. Only two of them each. Okay. Right what do you want? Take one sheet. I've got one sheet. Take the green crayon then. Right, I've got the green crayon. Put it that way. Hang on let me just turn the television down. You you keep your eye on it so that when your tra tram programme comes on we can watch it. Right. What to do? Well it's that way you need it. I want a table for this. Well you can't use these tables. Don't let me just move this magazine. Write five on it. Have I got to write five on mine? Yes. Right. My green pen doesn't write very well. There you are. Double add. Double add? I'm not used to double add. Five plus plus equals Equals Equals, equals? Well this is a bit of a nonsense. What's that? One hundred plus plus Equals, equals. Equals, equals. Now it gets easier. Mhm. Now it gets really even harder. Well which way is it? Does it get harder or easier? Three hundred. Mm. Oh, three hundred and four. I, I'm not understanding when you're doing plus plus when you're writing down yourself. What are you trying to prove? Divide Mm. Well that's, that's, that's very good for divide, but that's a square root sign. A square root. A square root at three hundred and four? Yes. Haven't a clue. Equals Equals now what do you want me to do with all these? Guess. Oh I'm guessing. Write your name at the top. It's alright writing my name Dave but what am I doing? Mm? It's easier and easier. Well it doesn't look easy. Look, I'll do the usual. Let me write you down some sums. And you, you can answer them. Okay. Sorry. I've put an answer in where you don't want. There you are. There's a nice list of sums for you. Just get on with What those. That's it. Well it isn't easy. It's the right one. Bu yes, you got it right. I, I shouldn't have written that. You sho , five, six, seven, eight . Good . Speak up. How do you do a seven? Er er, like that. You know how to do a seven. Oh here's the tram bit. Let's fli turn up the sound then we can No you've done that backwards, it's seventeen not seventy one. Here we go look. Oh look Dave this is great! Going back to the old trams. But how can they go through the towns? Well trams Dave they do both, they go on the railway lines and they go through the town centre. Right. Oh dear! Don't watch this . The Olympics, not that far away. Right. Let's see. Seven minus two is Good. Ah ah! That's wrong. Right. I'll just turn off the television then we can concentrate on I can. Da David! You're not doing very well on that question and you've done harder ones. Remember how you do it. Add the four to the three I have. and what do you get? Eighteen! No you don't. Well do it, do it the way on your fingers. You've got thirteen plus four. Thirteen Got it now? Yes. Plonker! Right. Now let's do this one. This is, this is easy. Great! Now yo there you are now then now getting a little harder but you can do it in just the same way. . So what's the answer? Yes! You've got it right. Now this last one then we'll do something different. That's right. Thirty three minus two is thirty one. That's not bad. Right what do you want to do now? Mm? Er er, I don't know. Right. Well we can do plenty of that. Have you cleared up all your toys and everything before Julie comes? There's that Well then why is it still out? And have you cleared up everything in the dining room? Oh my er trees are still out. Chrissy hasn't put all the climbing up things away. Mm mm. Well shall we go through and do some clearing up then? Come on. Go and put these pens away and the paper please. We'll do some writing then. Not tonight we won't. There's not gonna be any more time. Go put those away please. Off you go. Right. Now you said you were gonna tell me what's happened on the news so far. Three people have er been killed in a railway accident after their their car ran into the side of a train. Oh dear! Wh which is about er which is about er open er the day after tomorrow. What's open the day after tomorrow? The level crossing. Oh it's closed now is it? No, they're going to open it. It's new. Aha. What else has been happening? And dad? Yes. You know that many level crossings are one barrier? Yes. Well that they showed us er a thing about the speed about about the traffic approaching lights when they're starting flashing. It showed you a car go over that, going over,tha a lorry going over crossing and the lights were starting to flash. Well a lot of people do that. It's very dangerous. But I was supposed to stop. They ha as soon as the lights flash supposed to stop. Be What the running of the railway line? No, they're supposed to stop before the lights. Silly! Yeah. Because, on a lot of those the train Yes. activates the lights as it's approaching the crossing. Yes cos most,o most of that one barrier, it said on the news that they're o automatic. That's right. So They have er special cameras which they take the line of the trains both sides. Mhm. And the barriers drop, so if you try and go through when the lights are flashing or if you try and go round the barriers the chances are the train's getting nearer and nearer and could hit you. So it's a very silly thing to do. Yes. Like if it's one metre away and there's a car going across. Well if you were that close and the lights started you'd probably get across. But if you, like, you know what it's like when we come If, if the barriers were down er and you were still on the railway er th ah there's only way you can escape. Go round by the barrier pole. Well yes, but look at the crossings we've got in Driffield. Yes. The barriers Er . they've got full barriers you see. Full barriers. Double are safe. Well, they're different because they have them they're really controlled by a man in a signal box so they're Yes they are controlled. controlled by a television. Er If they're controlled well dad, everyone knows that one th the Tackleby's controlled by a man. Oh yes. That was good wasn't it? Yes. Yes, you enjoyed that trip into the signal box didn't you? Oh yes. But though it was rather dangerous. After all in my, you know my er people working on the rails book? The one Yes. . It says, you must never try to steer ru steer round a bu barrier poles. That's right. And they're trying to take away as many er possible erm, mainly one barrier er railway gates as possible. Well I didn't know they were trying to get rid of those. Especially on busy main roads. But some of the crossings around this area didn't have any barriers at all Ah ah. and they just had the flashing lights. Well it's like wo ones at Meading Ro Meadow Road. That's right. They're only wooden ones. Ah well tha no Meadow Road's got the old gates but at Natherton there were some that didn't have any barriers at all, they were just flashing lights. Now, do you remember now let's think whether you were born. When the Lockington railway disaster happened that was just a few miles from here. At Manchester? No, Lockington. Ah. And that was where er, a train came off the railways when it hit a van on Oh. on the crossing er and killed a lot of people. Oh. I, I, I know, I'd, I have never heard never heard. Oh! That's sa surprise cos I was on the way to Hull oh yes! You were around because I was going to take you and Chrissy to Hull to a train fair Ah yes! And mum and Chrissy slept in the car. and and th that's ri they were, they, mum was gonna stay at home and I was gonna take you for a ride on the train Yeah. and then mum decided she was going to come so we took the car. And we might, might well have been on that train that had the crash. Yes. Thank goodness we didn't. Well it was one of those things wasn't it? Well it's a good job mum came. Mm mm. I hope, I hope . Well we went past the crash and we could see that there was something going on but we weren't sure what it was. It happened just after we went past the, just before. You could see er a couple of Land Rovers going down with flashing blue lights and things towards I the crossing. And th th and they would be police ones if they'd got blue lights and Mm mm. so did you, could you hear the sirens? No I couldn't. But erm when we, by the time we got into Hull I heard it on the radio what had happened and we went to the toy fair and then we came back and there was er you could see all the ambulances and everything still there. And the train was there leaning over. But half of it was still on the rails. Yes it was the front coaches went off. Front coaches? Onto the side I think. Well what sort of express? It was erm well what do you think it would be? Er I think it must have been a multiple unit. That's right. It was a diesel multiple unit. And it was before you had your pacers and sprinters. Yes. Thank goodness for that! I wouldn't want one of those, one of the pacers or sprinters or metros spoilt. But dad! They're all multiple units at sometimes. Yes, of course they are, but we, I was talking about the old sort of diesel multiple unit. Yes. One with the yellow front. You can get all different sorts of, one with two red lights erm one with two windows Can you? Yes. Mm. I'm pleased you know your trains. Yeah. Right. Well I'm gonna have to start thinking about getting ready. What about you getting ready for bed now? Dad. Mhm? What about the Manchester crossing disaster? Which one was that? Er, just outside Manchester. Mm mm. Can't remember that one. The one about those two boys playing on the track. Oh! Is that one they've told you about at school? No. No. I got it from the telly. Oh! Did you now? No. You, you told me about it when you came home once. You told me about that disaster. Well, your memory's better than mine. I can't remember it now. The only tha disaster I know very well is the Tay one the Tay Tay Bridge. The Tay Bridge. Yes. And half of it still is standing. What else do you know? Er er tt oh what about? The Tay Bridge. Er er well the engine which should have pulled, the post train, broke down so that went to the works and the engine which took its replacement Mhm. was one which they which fell down with a crash. Oh! Mm mm. Dad! You should know all this, you told me. Well you've got your book on it haven't you? Somewhere. Of course! But I can't read it. Right. Anyway, come on let's But dad, I don't understand. Well what don't you understand? About all this at Tay Bridge. About other things in my book. Mm mm. Anyway, come on, let's go get ready. They really should give give you a magazine article itself about the Tay Bridge. Well you've got a magazine that's got a lot of it in. But not very much. No. Here's Julie here now Phil ! I've left the tape running running. Sorry cat. Oh. Come on. Hi Julie! Hi Julie. Mummy. He's not ready. He's got a nerve asking you to, well letting you do this. Sorry? I, he's got a nerve Mum! letting you do this! It's taking Mummy! advantage! Sit down. I wonder if I You don't mind? I'll take you through in a minute, I'm just cleaning my shoes. Alright. I'll take them off. No don't take them off, it's ju d'ya know I had those re-heeled about two weeks ago. Did you? Look! It's, well Isn't that awful! Well yeah. Bit depressing though cos well it's two, two pounds fifty six. I've just taken another pair today to be re-heeled. I mean, all I've done is walk up to the school a couple of times in them. Can hear the sheep. Yes. They're noisy tonight. Oh you brought all your work with you? Erm there's all the stuff there. There's only biscuits, I haven't been able to do any baking. I don't want, I don't eat them. I don't eat any more . Well especially if it's my baking! Mm. Now David will be down in a minute. David, can you tuck your pyjamas in please? Yep. Do you know how to work the fire? , if I can work it anybody can. Erm, Chris is out at Cubs but he gets brought home. Right. So he'll arrive about twenty to, quarter to eight, and he just gets dropped off. Well, the person who's dropping him off might just check that there actually is somebody in the house, you know, so do you know how to work the television? No. Well okay, I'll come and help you. It's on standby and then er there's the controller Er er it needs new batteries never mind. er to ge to get Hi love. if not, erm, just press these buttons here. Oh right. There's the Radio Times there Erm there. so a one-legged person going out of here. I'm trying to put my shoes on. Right. Erm David David. He's out there eating again. Having his yoghurt. His toothbrush is up, Judy he's Julie, not Judy! I said Julie didn't I? Oh yes alright. He's erm, he's self-sufficient, as Chrissy walks in David can go up to bed, he's, can do his own teeth, get himself in and, you know, and He's been . if you let him though he'll, he'll stay up all night and read to you and things like that, but no, just send him to bed. I don't mind if he reads for a few minutes but that's it. Chrissy will come in, he might come in bringing Simon and his mum He won't! You know Fran bri Yeah. brings him home? And the last two weeks they've come traipsing in to swap They won't tonight. They won't. to swap Megadrives. They won't. Anyway In other words Julie, there is nothing for you to do is all, I mean, you're giving, you're giving millions of instructions No, but if Fran walks in, if Fran walks in they'll just put, they'll put a toy on and they'll take it out Well Chris'll sort all that out. You can just ignore everything. you can tell them to clear off. You can Erm have a go on my exercise bike if you want. That's if nobody else does . Erm Don't you like it? Well tha it requires effort. Er er yeah, and Chrissy goes to bed at eight. He can only read till half past. But he knows, he knows that. I know, but There's nothing for you to know he'll Julie around really! you know he does. Well I shall smack his bo oh yes. Julie won't tell you. Was it wasn't it last time you came, years ago, and he cried? Yeah. He cried. That was years ago! Yeah that was when you were going to Bill's, the last time I came Oh that was for yeah the party baby-sitting. it's a oh yes the Boston, oh yes, the fancy Yeah. Yes it was. party. Yeah. Sorry. Didn't want to miss it . Miss what? Nothing. Oh yeah . Bill's party. You remember Bill? Bill? Yes. Oh the the Glaswegian optician. Can't remember anything about his parties worth repeating. They were the same sort of things that I never got invited to again. Ah! Davey. What? When Chrissy comes home you go to bed. I know, I heard you. Oh! Alright! That's right. Sir! Don't stop Julie working. No oh. Ready Jane ? Silly question. ? Fortunately. That's good! Any, anyway you did get your hair done this morning then, yeah? Suit you. Tt! Oh ! See Mr last night. Mm mm. Did you? Oh that's nice. Yeah. I don't think the prospect cheers Jane up particularly but What are you doing? I don't know that I've even seen that . He gets frustrated when he can't win though. Yeah but don't we all. I mean, that isn't just a function of their age Yeah. it's a function of age you er I know, but it gets him depressed. I know, but er, Jane goes through the same, I can't remember things. Oh! I should be able to do this and that but, but it happens. It's just as you get older I think you, you begin to notice it more because your conscious of your faculties not being there. Anyway, erm but, but with John he wo he will, he'll get really uptight, he won't erm I don't even think it . Alright? Anything else? Are you taking your car? Cos if you are I'll have to move mine. We'll take whichever one we can get out quick Julie. Erm, Jane's'll be easy. Mind you, I've erm far enough forward to be able to get Oh! We'll manage. Will you? I'll see. Yeah. I can see the drive . You seen what they've been doing? Putting the new Yeah. in the bottom. Yeah. I saw the cones. Actually they're all er they are, nearly all of them have been broken so they've obviously caught up with the list from the . Er er er okay sunshine? We'll go now. See you ne see you later. Ni-night. Bye. Bye Julie. Bye. Good luck. Right. My handbag's through that Turn the tape off. way, it'll be quicker Are you turning the tape off? Ooh! Anything more to do? No. I don't think so. I'm tired. Are you going to finish off in the kid's room? Yeah, I'll switch this thing off. I'll watch the rest of Newsnight in bed I think. Right. Oh! What's this branch for, did you work out? Well it looks like it's a handy for one or something. Oh! It is isn't it? That's why it's got to be with the making the bird table I suppose. It's obviously . It'll be about I think about half past one. But I can find out for definite later on. I've got grandma's . What about another one? It's the only one there is . What's this? Hi! Hi! Hi! Oh I didn't want to come back. No. I didn't want to come back. Oh oh you shouldn't have done . You've got joinery and I, I haven't. I was told I had to. Oh! I was had a chance to get my job finished. You don't take any notice of them do you? Yes, well I thought so . She looks absolutely. Oh! Dear. It's lovely isn't it? Mm. Had it trimmed, do you feel better? She's taken quite a lot off actually. And that it didn't feel it when she was sort of combing it, but now I'm actually doing that I can feel it short. It's not there. Mind you, it needed it. It did need it. She said it did. Oh I need a cut. So yeah . So, I'm thinking oh it's hard, when I actually feel it it feels thicker at the end and it does feel better but when I've washed it, I shall feel all hairy now all afternoon. Yes. I'm just going to look . Yeah. Yeah, that's a really nice trim. This is it. Mm. Oh yeah, it's lovely . I can't bear the tables and chairs at this bottles of wine. Bottles of wine or nice cold lager. Yeah. Alright. Yeah. I almost envy the unemployed when they're sort of walking along the side the canal and Playing with their grandchildren. That was. Is it her grandson? Aha. That is. We had loads of people in last week. In two and a half days we've had four men under Int it terrible! Innit sad, isn't it really? I don't feel sorry for that man who came in on drugs and dropped Oh no! I didn't tell Julie about that. and when they were making, making a sign on the door He had a cigarette in his hand and flicking ash up the carpet and I was looking at him, you know, and I was sort of going,and Jane was sat in here and she said, put that cigarette out! Cheeky ! He usually smell, erm the air And now cigar smoke I quite like. But I, the other day I wondered who it was and it must have been him cos he was in Alan's office. But er cigarette smoke, I mean you wouldn't think of pu I don't whether it was a strong make or something like that but it was, it seemed really offensive didn't I know. it? Mm mm. He said he was desperate for work. Yeah. For work. And then he had a real flash car didn't he? Desperate to get work, he's got a flash car and smoking as well And smoking well I mean that's costly isn't it? This is it. But what er, I said, told Pete because I had another call when you were at lunch I think and erm he said he'd heard rumours that we were looking for somebody. Mm mm. Now whether he'd just said that, or whether he actually had. Vanessa wants you. Well no she doesn't, I've just been talking to her. Well yeah, Vanessa And also Gill wants you. Oh! Popular. Right, popular, yeah. Are you do Alan are you doing Hang on a minute! Hang on a minute! Are you going to do erm a valuation again? I've already done it. In your opinion And ask which one? ask Mr . I'm sure he'll be only too pleased to oblige you. Okay. Is that the only one? Yeah. Yes! I'll just move these out I thought you'd want the way. I thought you'd want to sit round the table. No, it's too low. I thought we'd sit on that bench and I must ring Gwyneth. Mm. Ring her up, see if she wants to come down for a drink. Do come for tea. Should I? Yeah. If she's in. I don't know about her mother. Erm, I wondered if I should ask her if she's going to the chinese tomorrow if she wants to drop in on the way home. A chinese tomorrow? Yes. And we'll drop in on the way home to watch a few election results or do you think if I start having a party tomorrow night it's gonna get out of hand? Well, the only trouble is, she won't be voting the way you are. I know. We Actually, if she comes and stays I'm gonna have trouble because of, I'll have to get the boys' tea. Well, so? She can come round for quarter an hour if she wants. What time is it? About quarter to six. Maybe a bit later. Quarter to six. Trouble is, if there isn't anybody in it's bad news isn't it? It means, if she's away two nights There's a nail sticking out of here. Yes I noticed that. It wants I keep meaning to hammer it in. I'll get a hammer. Oh. Oh dear. Mind you, it's end of term, she's got all the activities going on. Ah hello David, it's Jane. Erm, Gwyneth, is she what's happened to her mum? We never found out. Oh no! I've been trying to ring you to find out. Oh dear! And so, where, is Gwyneth back at work or yes. Yes. Oh dear! Ah! Well I'm very sorry. Erm, well, if you tell her I rang and give her my love. Okay David. Oh right. Oh well, no, I'll probably be out. Anyway, give her my love. Thanks. Bye ! No she died. When? She died on Friday? Sa Saturday. Saturday? Oh dear. So, yeah. Sh she Surprised we didn't hear. Well that's why she hasn't been about you see. So haven't they had a funeral? No, the funeral's on Friday. Oh! Keeping her . Oh dear. Oh dear! Erm so she's actually , she's obviously upset. Oh, well, that's understandable. But she's She can't see staying over there with her dad? Yeah. Well I was just oh yes. She's, I was, I was gonna put the phone down.. Poor old David. He won't be used to looking after himself. Oh he is. Is he? Yeah. Not that well. The sheep tonight. Mm mm. You know, when she came to visit me when I was in bed a couple of weeks ago she was asking erm how grateful she was to your parents for I know. That's always a sign of . Oh she didn't say anything. She'll, she'll have the of going up to the to see her father. Or end up living No. I think, she's got brothers over there. Yeah, but look at them What? Oh yeah. but they've got their own problems. Yeah. It's a good memory of your dad. Mm mm. Oh dear. That's sad. Apart from that, how d'ya get on with Julie? Oh fine. Yes, I stopped off at the She won't mind. She'll get used to it. She welcomes a buffer against Janet I think. I'm really enjoying this. If only we hadn't cut down those trees the view would be better. Yeah, oh this is nice being here in the spring with lambs in season. Oh it just makes it that much . Pat 's da dog, Ben. Yeah. Er well, sort of. He kept chasing me round David 's garden. Oh I'm not very pleased to hear that. Thought I did something. Here are David. He grabbed my legs. Oh no! Oh, hang on David I think we ought to have that jumper off you. Remember? Look at the, look at the heat of him! And earlier I had dog's neck. Have you washed your hands very thoroughly? Well, well I don't like you being round dogs. Er erm Or dogs being round you. Chrissy have you got a potato love? Oh yes please. Here, have a couple. I only want one Dad. Oh alright. Only have one then. Let me put those on smaller plate and I'll put that one away. Erm ha Chrissy can I just have a knife and I can cu oh go on half it then I can get this out, I can throw this Can you just get on out. carton away. Erm, can I do it or Yes, clear that one off. There's a new one, but erm Jane, do you want to have cut of bread? Well I wasn't going to have any bread if we're having potatoes as well. I would, but I you know, I'm trying to give butter up. When it comes to bread I can't Resist. What do you want, this? Can I just have some of the new wine please? Cos I Yeah. Yeah, sure. just wasn't sure. I didn't think the old stuff was that bad. Well no, but it wasn't but I just wanted some Perhaps I'm more into vinegar than you are. Dad, I've got my new stuff tomorrow. Oh yes, sunshine. Oh yes, I'll, I'll, I've been thinking I ha we haven't told Dad about what's happening tomorrow. I ha I have to have a packed lunch. Have to have a packed lunch tomorrow? What for? What's the big event? the hole. The hole. Pardon? The general election is taking over the school. Ah! So you can't have any dinners at school? Yes. No, no, I mean Down in the hole. er we don't have to po er, you see, it's to do with school anyway, but they're giving them a packed lunch so I believe. But where are the new potatoes? Have you got the new potatoes? They're here my girl. Mum whe I've been to some before and they've had the erm Well, shall I put them in the fridge? school dinners in different places. Sorry? They've had the school dinners in different places before. Yes, but probably the school actually is bigger than this, there's more people there than when you were in there and erm, that's probably just too complicated. Mm. Yeah. I'm sure David won't mind sandwiches for a day. It's quite exciting. It won't be that good. They'll just go down That's enough then. first every day. Pardon? Pardon? They'll just go down first every day. Yeah, well it doesn't matter Chris. Okay Chris, you can try the new one love if you've done that. Let's get this in the bin. And that. Just erm, now, do you need anything? No we got so many of them that erm, I'll, I'll You don't want that one? No. You can throw that. As long as you're okay on that. Can I sit down now? Only if I can have a lump of your bread. In fact, maybe you should offer me the plate. Can you pass me the butter? Thank you. I must admit I'm very hungry. Well so you should be. Working at the garden. Like you've had a gardener in. Can I have it please? Thank you. Don't worry David, I'll pick it up. I didn't have a chance to put these out on a dish either. Oh . You mean, I haven't put it out on a dish? Okay? Chrissy? Mm? Want some turkey? Do you want some turkey? No thanks. Did you David? I've got hazelnut and ham haven't I? Mm mm. , one of those. And some of that. I didn't wash all this so there's Well I must admit there's more if you need it. it tastes better if it's washed and put in that, in that cling film. Mhm. It keeps better than it's left in the bottom of the fridge. Has David got some coleslaw? You will eat your coleslaw honey won't you? Mhm. He's got some but he's not very enthusiastic. I thought you said you liked it? I go off and on it, but Oh. sometimes I do, and sometimes I don't. Right. Ow! But it, it doesn't keep forever. When did I make it? Saturday. So it wants using. I'm doing my best, you know ma Well, I've made some more since then. you know me and coleslaw. Oh, so I don't have to rush it? Well, not that. I'd prefer it to go. Have you got everything you want kiddies? Yeah. Yes. And a bag of crisps, got the same packet. Boys, when we next see Gywneth will you be nice and quiet and kind to her, her Mummy's just died? Ah ah! Isn't that sad? Mm. What of? Erm well she's an elderly lady. Erm Heart problem wasn't it? heart problems, that's what I said. Mm. So she's always very nice to you, so make sure you're very nice to her. She hasn't got children to take her mind off her problems . Ah, if she had children, it's a pity she doesn't. Be nice to be able to play with them. There are the, other ways of looking at it Chris. Not that I'd wish to encourage you, but if she had children she wouldn't be so generous to you. Mm mm. No. Cos she's very generous. Very. She spends more on you on your birthdays than your grandparents do. So think about that. Doesn't she? Indeed she does. It's still a, it's still a present for her grandma. Ow! Shouldn't have mentioned grandma! Only one of them. We, we must go there at some stage to see her. Yeah. She's in Japan at the moment. We're hoping she'll stay there. We'll, well . Ha! Come the end, end of the summer you haven't got a clue. I wonder why? Mm mm. That was quite nice. Has Bill got one? Mm mm! They've all two except me. Can we decide what we are doing this weekend because erm You tell me. Well what's the options? We either stay home or we stay home or we're going away. If we go away I think it's too early in the year to use the caravan, therefore it means staying at Tent. somebody's. A tent ! Mm mm! Or there's the tent. Is that what you want Chris? You can, oh you can have, the tent up on the back lawn if you, if you're so bothered about camping. I don't think I want to go in tent this time of year. Ring up Ted and Linda and see while they're going over to your mother's we'll go over to Aberystwyth. Yes. Well they have got We'll bo borrow their house. I used to like, camping's o okay Christopher, but it's difficult when you've got children. Oh. And when the nights are that much darker early. When it was just your Dad and I we, we could go out all evening and then, then come back to the tent, but when we've got you two we have to be back in the , we can't go out in the evenings. Where's the wine? On top of the microwave. That's where you might expect to find cold wine. More? Mm mm. Oh only a bit cos I I've gotta cut David's hair tonight . I'll cut your ears off. Squiggly hair. Mouth closed please Dave. So, if we went away it's, it's really only Aberystwyth or or isn't it? Mm mm. I, I'd prefer . Well cos I think Phil and Lesley are going to grandma's for Easter and they live in , and therefore it depe it depends what Aunty Dulcy's doing. I mean, we could ring her up and ask her. Or shall we just stay at home and go out for days and Go to my parties. Yes, you'd miss the parties if we went away. But I need to know cos I'll do a turkey if we're staying home. Why? Well Well there's York model railway exhibition that weekend but we could still see that and go away. I've got a Christmas pudding as well, left over from Christmas. Mind you, if it costs three pounds a head to get in you'll probably not want to go. I'll sit outside. Ha! Children free probably. One pound What about stu fifty. what about student concessions? Do they have student no? Don't I know. I would have thought so. I mean, they usually do these things, if you flash your student card. Pensioners and children, one pound fifty. Here you are. They do students as well. Unless they at school. I keep forgetting to, well you can , forgetting to use my student card. I'm not student. Well you are really aren't you? But, when they mean student they mean people who are over eighteen or nineteen. Mum. Mm? And Dad. Well Dad, Dad's a bi Dad's a student. I'm nearer a pensioner. Yeah, just a . Dad. Yes love? Can I have some a drink of li milk, milk? Pardon? Milk. Can I have a drop of milk please pardon? Er pardon. If you'd have said please David I The opposite to please. Thank you. What is the opposite to please. It's a I, thank you of course. Yes, that will be thank you is the right No. thing. I dunno. Erm Em's crispy. Who's Em? The That ruddy dog he keeps on about! Throw him in the pond. Got Ribena? No oh oh oh! You want Ribena do you Chris? Dad! You're not allowed to to talk like that to people's dog. And especially dogs we know. I'm surprised the boys let it run their garden. What well it was David David's idea, don't blame me. I said to Julie the office was quiet. She said that was a nice day they've all gone out . Yeah. Says who? Says who? On patrol. They do. Must be, some of the girls lay down. That, well, ask Daddy not me. Can I have one of my mini chocolate orange things? Well it can wait till after we've finished and yes you ca cer certainly can. And me? I must make the Easter chocolate nest cake mustn't I? You why he's racing? What's he racing for? Eh! You want to get your violins done? Are you racing? I want to disturb David. Well I don't think he will either. Well Course you can? Can David come up now? Well can't we let David come round here when he's ready? No! No, we'll Yeah but we'd thought out, we'd go out together when er we'd finished our tea and we I had my tea. Well I'm cutting David's hair tonight, I don't want want you late to bed. And I'll do Anyway Chris, on the grounds that what do you want to have? Chocolate orange. Well go and fetch one for yourself, you can eat it and then you can go. Thank you. Then I can have one. Yes. You can. Mum, I don't want any pudding. You can have what you want Dave. Alright? There's some Scotch pancakes and hot cross buns as well. And have another big ? Can you come and cut it please mum? Well, come to think of it, no. Sorry? There you go. Please can you cut it for me please? Wow ee! No I didn't, I didn't realize that's what it was. Well put it on a plate, get a knife and, over there and neatly, neatly Over here Chris, on the board. do it. No here. After you go I thought it was just that. Would you like to help me with one slice? Now I've got myself all in a muddle I must admit. Chris, it's, it's the same one, just big. It's a really big one. Oh good! Can I throw all that? No. Don't be silly. No, no. It's a, it's only a Alright. it's only Alright. a giant Pipe down! It's twice the size. We've both got butter cream instead of er I haven't been baking How much? so I thought I'd buy you That? Yes please. Don't get used to it will you? Same plate? No. Yes please. Did you get your plate? Yeah. Go get your plate. Come on. That's what mum said! Pickle. Dad I didn't have cream on mine. Oh no! Hold on. I'll have your,tha yo jacket potato's clean so I'll have those as well,, but you can eat a bit more. Can you eat your meat and some more coleslaw? I can't eat the coleslaw. Mum, I can't Chrissy! Go back to your place, please! I can't eat my coleslaw. I don't mind you trying to get out, but you don't go messing around like that. That's better. Leave it where it is. I'll get a plate. This kitchen looks like a bomb's hit it. Mm mm! Always does when I get things ready. Yes, I know. Dad, can I cut a piece of that please Dad? Wouldn't you rather have a hot cross bun? No thanks. Too late. It's cut. You'll drink your orange juice Mm you. mm. Yes. He will. Yes alright, I know you want to go. Wash your hands, wash round your mouth and go. And go to the toilet. Drink that first. Yeah. Alright. Erm Yes? It's five past seven, I want you home for twenty to eight. Okay. It's turning cold, don't you think you ought to put a jacket on? I was gonna change . Is that nice? Yes. He's now doing his Charlie Chaplin or Hitler impersonations. You must admit it was erm I was thinking more of erm was it Laurel or was it Hardy? The one that the little Mm. moustache. Oliver Hardy wasn't it? Mm mm. Tha that's more what, the er sticking up hair does it. The fat one who, in the blue coat. Yes it's the fat one. Who's always bossy? Mm. Mm mm! I don't know which one that Erm, saying you've me into another mess. No they haven't got that in for a little while. That's, but they never show the originals. Erm No,we Laurel and Hardy died. Mhm mm. Mm. Ought to get the like this. But Mum. Yes? There's still the person who looks Bye! Bye Chris. there is a person who looks like Oliver Hardy. Mm mm.. About that? I'll have a little to start with, thank you. Mhm. Whatever you want. Are we going to build Fab One? No. We couldn't now. We haven't got enough bits have we? That's Rolls Royce i that Rolls Royce is er is the only one which can shoot in the world. In the super nation thing. Chris. There's two cars who di did you know Chris. that there's a race? Just, just be quiet just for ten seconds! I know that could be impossible for you. Right. I've done it. Mm. Haven't done those? I have. Can't you even just be quiet for about nine seconds? Be quiet, just one, two, three, four, five, six Too fast. seven, eight, nine, ten. Too slow you know. After all I th I thought went to er A girl? Aha. A girlie. They are . But Michael Jackson, or, whoever it is that Strange woman , urgh! She's an absolute hideous Yes. most of the time. Yeah. Michael Jackson! Most of the time, I won't say all of the time, but most of the time. Yes, most of the time. Is that for me? That's what, that's what he was made for. An idiot! Chrissy, right, does your ca your T-shirt want washing? Which one? Er, no thanks I haven't worn it. I'm trying to sort out if, if there's already one Er er no. actually , if you've put it away it's clean then. Chris. You know some bad especially Pretend that's got a pod in it. I must make some . Chris. Chris. Chris. You know something, er you know something here? Things which take the booster blaster in bo special containers well that, well those are those containers. And that's Thunderbird Four. Chris, are you wearing the green pumps at school for P E? No,we we have to do it in bare feet. Yeah, but do you wear them for anything? No. Well those are the ones that Matthew we shouldn't have bought you new trainers when you'd got these. I'd forgotten about these. Why didn't you bring them home? I'd forgotten about them. Tt! Oh! Twenty six quid Chrissy and you've still got these to use up. Never mind. You're enjoying the new ones aren't you? These are Are your new comfortable. ones more comfortable? Mm. Yes. Mhm. Yes they are? I think perhaps for the holidays then. Did you say these used to rub your toes when you went a long way in them? Yeah. Oh. Yes. You're probably better with your Nike for long distance. For your Yeah. long distance walking, you know, in the holidays. Okay. Shall I try our Thunderbird? We haven't made Thunderbird Five though. This is Thunderbird Four David. Yeah. Right, come on. Let's go! management meeting, in the chair is Superintendent Julian . The date is the first of February nineteen ninety-four and it's the crack of dawn. Good morning everybody, thank you all for coming so early. For the purposes of the tape I think er we ought to explain that our management meetings are always run on very serious lines with no, no jokes allowed, er first of all I think we should just place on the record that this meeting is being taped everybody recognises that, and the purposes are for to analyse everybody's linguistic ability and later on Tracy's going to recite her piece her presentation for the purpose of the tape. An and I I'll keep me mouth shut. That would make a change Sec secondly we must welcome Paul to the meeting, as you know he joined us at the beginning of January to run the neighbourhood watch schemes and as office manager I thought it appropriate he attend the management meetings. Er any apologies, Dave of course who's looking after Yashi Mi Soto all day. I like saying that cos' I've been practising. I'd like apologise for the room, it's er too cold really. I booked the conference not realising it was gonna be the control room by this time, and then this morning I turned up to find out we can't put the lights on without getting behind the bar, and we can't get behind the bar so that's why this er Uh, can I say ten for er effort. for fixing that light. I think it's excellent. Oh good heavens Dear me pass me the spanner. Right, er minutes of the last meeting has anybody brought them with them. On account of the fact that somebody's mis-filed my folder. There we are. We've got some. Er,I I'll skip through it cos' most people haven't got the copies with them, er we looked, you'll remember that the A C C ops meeting thanked us for providing Beeston with a U V lamp for M O T examination. It was a success in so much one did out of fifth M O Ts that prove to be forged and was identified very quickly. Somewhat cheekily that committee came back to us and asked us very nicely would we provide about twenty five for the force, which we thought was a cheek but having said that we've actually looked at it and there may well be a way that we could afford it. W We've I've already ordered 'em there's forty four wanted actually. forty four how much is it gonna cost us? About erm, you get four for hundred pound, so we're talking Four for a hundred pounds, so Seven hundred quid then Seven hundred quid, that's why Paul's been invited to this meeting. Yes he's right. Er, work placements, yes Susan Ann and John have started. Are there any major problems with Susan and John at all Tracey? No Could you just er speak a bit louder No Right None at all Am I right in saying that Susan's with us for a full year every Wednesday and John is supposed to be with us for a term but it's been extended hasn't it Yeah but if we can get him onto the computer system he'll do two days a week if he can do it Right okay just as a reminder to everybody if they have admin jobs that are pretty basic if we can save them til a Wednesday or a Thursday like photocopying and things like that then they will invariably be able to do those for you. I mean David it will certainly save er Ann standing at the photocopier Can I put in a bid I'm working with er er Dave Williams on the launch of this drugs hotline and there's a need to do quite a large mailshot of the posters in the right in the next couple of weeks, so if we can use them right to help Ann Can you liaise li liaise with Tracey then Right okay. Cos Tracey plans their day. Yeah Erm This is a very difficult form to fill in in relation to who's attending the meeting. which room actually. Right, er we mentioned at the last meeting that Richard was on our side in our attempts to bring back the schools liaison officers into the fold. The er his report has gone to the policy group it's been talke discussed by them and it now goes to the policy advisory group. We're quite fortunate because there will be four chief superintendents at that meeting to discuss whether or not the S L O's should come back to the centre. David doesn't want them in the first place and he won't argue, I've discussed it with Robin he won't argue, erm Richard who's the only one that could really be regarded as a loser daren't argue 'cos it's his report that recommends we they come back to us, and John won't understand the item so I think we're alright there. I think we're almost certainly guaranteed to get the S L O's back into the fold although bearing in mind the recent developments with the C P O's it's unlikely that they will be coming back to the fold. Can I chip in there. We've had a meeting Paul Keith and myself looking at er planning for the future of management supervision of the S L O's and got a plan together which will regular meetings I'll put it under A O B, cos Can I mention er that I'm very disappointed that C P O's aren't coming back under the fold I understand the arguments for and against, but when you look at erm the knowledge that two of our new recruits have got, in relation, one in relation to fraud and one in relation to terrorism, it seems ironical that they're divisional staff and can't go round the force giving their expertise force-wide rather than just on er a basic divisional Yeah, er well put it under any other business Erm nothing more about that one other to say that we seem to be on course for finishing er about the zero mark which is what we're targetting. Er Jed is keeping records of private security companies that's unchanged, just as a reminder that everybody should keep in touch with him, please. P C Peters actually has moved to force headquarters as you're all aware? Is that six months? Just for everybody's benefit it is his plan to retire in July although we have had dates before that have run er over with P C Peters Erm I thought he retired in September Well, it's he's now he's now got marriage plans Oh right Which er change everything This tapes gonna be worth a lot of money isn't it. Thank you Paul. Just thought I'd better remind people. Yes that's an agenda item now. Regular C P O's meetings, have we got one fixed? Yes 23rd February. Right, erm new areas of responsibility Sergeant err, nothing more on that one. Very Keith was. I don't think there's any more items on there that er need updating. Anything on social security at all? that's on the agenda Displays, use of the marquee at gala day spending money, er that's coming up later on Yes please Long term sick, I think we all know now that er Pat is going to be retiring on a pension in er beginning of May is it? three months from last week And Dave is now cast with the problem of replacing Pat. Er I think that's the end. Will it be me and Dave that are doing the interviews then, cos he'll be doing the what is it the race relations side and no doubt I'll be doing the If you want to do it with David then that's fine by me, I 'll leave it to you to discuss with him. Right But you need to speak with pers well it's an internal vacancy isn't it, yes and you speak with personnel and they'll rubber stamp the post, or position rather, age? Don't any of the existing Sergeants want to take it before it gets advertised outwards I mean I don't but David I don't suppose you want to be doing that for I think that's it, er three Sergeants spoken for Any other sergeants I've forgotten? Yeah, you're sitting right across from one but never mind he always thinks of you as an Inspector Any more points on la last year's agenda that need to be discussed. Thank you very much. Right Item four crime prevention A L O work what is the way forward or backward as the case may be Sergeant What does A L O stand for? David you allowed to hit him now, he's only been one for thrty-eight years. I've never seen the abbreviation before you see. It stands for allo allo allo. I put this on the agenda erm the phrase at the moment seems to be flagging things up and my concern is opposite Dave is the but as everybody I'm sure is aware we've got erm divisional A L O's based within as Crime Prevention Officers, the main concern for my particular area is Bill although based at has actually for the last three years built up a good working relationship and inspected staff from and . Erm two things now have cropped up number one of course is that there's a fair chance within the next year we're gonna lose Bill anyway through civilianisation, and secondly er the fact that er his boss er Rick has said to him, look I don't want you going up a division any more to do erm A L O work, quite reasonably, he's not being funny about it, it's quite reasonable, cos its mileage. So what I'm saying is erm I happen to think that the A L O stuff is some of the most valuable stuff that we do, it's really one of the main ways forward and if we just sit back and do nothing about it it's gonna just be wiped out at a a swipe. I don't think we're gonna solve it today, but what I'm saying is did we ought to look at some sort of action plan brainstorm, call it what you will for the very near future to look at how we're gonna tackle this problem. If we are gonna tackle it. This is one of the major problems of the civilianisation program. Er as we know round about July August time, the remaining nine P C's will be er turned into civilians wave of a magic wand the biggest problem there is the total loss of our skills base overnight effectively, the second thing is it'll take a long long time to get them trained particularly in relation to A L O work. Add to that the new guidelines that suggest that all er plans for major developments must go through the hands of an A L O and really we don't have an answer for it, and if we are going to be getting 9 new civilian C P O's they're gonna have their work cut out learning their basic craft before they even develop their A L O skills. It could take a number of years before we get them all on A L O courses and in fact there's no way w I assume there's no way we can put them on A L O courses til they've done a crime prevention course at Is that right David? er Yeah So we will not have the capacity to deal with A L O work to the extent that we would like, there's no doubt that poor David over there is gonna get a lot more work on his desk as a result of that, and it's just something we're gonna have to live with in the short term. We've flagged up those problems to command and I'm seeing Mr on Tue Tuesday afternoon I think it is, and Jed's put a report into command and I'll put on it as well, and we're saying to them what is the answer? Em There are a number of problems of course highlighted by civilianisation, there will be nobody qualified to do firearms dealers er inspections and inspections of firearms ranges and so we've put a report in saying would you please tell us who's gonna do it, which department will take on responsibility for it. And I think the way forward is perhaps to have a meeting with R and D and for them to come to us and discuss with us the aspects of work that we will not be in a position to do come the revolution. In fact I've put it in that report haven't I? wouldn't it have been better if they'd done it before Yes, right I agree entirely, and one of the points we're making to Mr is that we were never consulted we were merely told this is happening, now we're trying to put the report in in a positive way. We're not saying you can't do it because we're trying to say you need to be aware of these problems because we need to find solutions to some of them, erm and A L O work is definitely one of them, that report from the home office and the D V suggests quite categorically that er that there should be a crime prevention input into all planning applications. Now whether it means that in the short term they all land on your desk, and you give them just a superficial examination I don't know. It's not the way we would like to do it, but It will only happen if you do because the credibility That's right will go straight out the window and they won't bother with us, a very short time it's taken five I mean six years to build up the credibility Yep Yep For them to start consulting us, now we've done it Yeah we're Yep It's just That happened that happens with all staff changes where you need a degree of skill its compounded by the fact that all nine will be changed at the same time and as I said before is a total loss of the skills base. And what the force will say to us is that the force has overall priorities and they take precedent and that is to get sixty four P Cs back on the street, and our problems they will be looking to us for imaginative solutions But I don't think the force recognise just what this department does up front, in in that way er, yeah It's alright saying sixty four P Cs on the street end. Wonderful but it doesn't actually mean anything. An and its time that that top corridor were made aware of just what sort of front line work we are doing to save the sixty-four officers on the beat that that's right need to be there yep yep yeah in the first place I just find it Yeah totally the decision disappointing an and frustrating th that this type of thing is happening, I'm pleased I'm coming to the end of me service because the time will come when somebody's got to speak out, and I think the time has or come when at I can speak out, damn the consequences. I think public relations is the reason for doing it isn't it and to pacify the politicians, Yeah but, cos the politicians aren't being made aware of what we're doing But nationally and locally because it seems that the answer to crime is, the decision was reached with the Chief Constable and the chairman of the police committee with very little reference to and the deputy and we were not consulted on whether or not it should take place or ask what problems we would encounter we were told it was taking place. In fact it's only recently we had anything on paper telling u in fact we've had nothing on paper other than police committee minutes. And er er sort of phone call one afternoon at half past four from the deputy, oh by the way, in fact if we hadn't been talking to any Brummies on a we would've been interviewing people and telling them that they'd got a three year and these are all points that are gonna be brought up next week, but I don't see there is any possibility of them doing an about turn because they've gone public on it. And they went public on it before consultation. I L O's than C P O's. they've been doing that anyway. It's just that unfortunately C P O's are on a Home Office list that say they are suitable for civilianisation. Which home office list because H M I C It's been tried and tested H M I C's list so the deputy tells me. Lincolnshire are following suit. They're just having a just having a review and they've told Mick that his lads are going to be civilianised. an about turn. accepted that then. Are we saying as a department therefore that we are just gonna let the wheel come off I L O work. No we will not have the capacity to do it, other than a superficial examination by David. Yes The only other thing that may be an answer to the question is erm I I know it seems an about face but are we gonna say that er the other two sergeants that are now managers become A L O's and use them in that capacity and train 'em up. I don't think you've got the opportunity to do that all the time. You might be able to do the odd one but I don't think that you've got the time, I mean bear in mind you've gone from four to three to two there's two of you now supervising all of us if you tell me you've got spare time then great, and you want to do one or two equally great, however unless you tell me to the contrary Yeah but but the thing is that well, they most probably could do but could do some but what what'd be sacrificed would be the management skills,y you know, and then you can't take on board a new commitment like that without shedding something No and I'd want to know what it was you were going to shed. Some of these projects I mean just are ongoing, you don't just go to a meeting and You don't just put a two page report in and it's resolved it's probably a three month project that you need to go continuously once a week to a trial meeting or or three months once a week to a two hour meeting. I mean some of these projects you're talking about thirty seven million pound projects yeah, yeah over a five year period, I mean they don't just happen overnight Well, if we draw stumps and don't go to them and somebody writes to the Chief Constable and says I'm very disappointed that your force no longer is gone A L O's then I shall be very happy that that letters received by the Chief because we can say well we told you so. We flagged it up, we've now told the force that we can no longer meet our A L O requirements, and that's it's not a question of being awkward, we will not have the the A L O's the A L O's to do it It's the members of the police committee at the end of the day that've had endorsed what the chief constable had done, and it's their councils that are gonna suffer. Well it isn't because th the police committee county councils and the one's aye of the district councils and the city councils yeah yeah I mean, I've worked with the County Council but not on the same sort of budgets as the district councils so they're making decisions that are affecting the districts that they haven't got any means of In the long term in the long term. In three years times all of the new C P O's will have been on courses and probably most of them will have been on A L O courses. So in three year's time we'll back to where we are today, we won't sir You will only get one or two A L O courses at most per year, Alright, but given time we will eventually build up that skill base again. What we're saying is that in this two three four five year span we're gonna have some real problems, It's the contacts it really is credibility yeah, you're blowing apart as well because we aren't servicing our part of the partnership, cos it's not only just talking about the projects he's bringing in an and getting him involved with projects like that. We're blowing the whole thing out the window, Yeah So Bill for instance is he to just carry on as if it's ongoing Yep So is he to be he doesn't know whether to just carry on or to put a stop to it now or what the hell to do No he, he must continue doing what he has got time to do. He's a C P O stroke A L O and that's what he should be doing. But th the thing is that Ashfield and Mansfield are still stra sending him plans yep three? We'll have to say sorry Bill you know w send them down to Dave if Dave's got time to pull 'em in he will do, if not we'll you know we'll have to reply negative. And also, bear in mind that, we can argue this is divisional problems as much as a headquarters C A problem those members of staff are owned by division. Those resources will still be there on division long after July nineteen ninety-four. And it's perhaps up to the new civilian C P O to go to the likes of Mick and say I can't do this, I have not been trained to do it yet, until I have been trained to do it perhaps P C should continue using his skills. Yes but Bill's hop hoping to go to Southall mhm Which takes him off yeah They're all gonna yeah, but there will still be those nine C P O's somewhere on divisions Perhaps it's advantage There is no easy answer No, but it don't work that way I know, know Maybe it's the personality yeah, it's the person in the post as much as the post itself th th that I think one thing that we've got to do is Dave's post one is that it's got to be eye levelled and C P O's right? yep and the other thing is that to get this kind of continuity even at one post he's got to work with Dave for at least six months and Dave's going in March next year so we want a A L O in post by September of this year if that's possible. So we're gotta start talking with personnel in the near future about David's post yeah right don't No, but September's yeah September's er er a latest date really so six months with you is a minimum I'll tell you now we'll never get a six month's overlap mm but I shall be asking for one and we'll see what personnel says. It's one way of reminding them how complicated your task is so with six months overlap so we're talking about September aren't we? Yeah because he's got to go on a month's course for a start, for just general and then we've got to try and find him a a week's course somewhere as A L O, I don't know where but er in that time. Look you're going to finish up with nine C P O's and an A L O mm Why don't you have now to get to come over here. I've tried they've got no, they're struggling for staff at the moment for external training and the they've said that er Why can't they give us I mean Christ I can't do a up there Whatever out of a five day course, do it ourselves why don't we er get there erm package and do it ourselves Yeah but We'd better at doing it ourselves. We've got the expertise, yeah I mean it it's only external speakers that we should er I mean they come to the University for a day, I can set that up I mean we can do exactly the same at university. My input over there together with erm who did it last time? erm Norfolk and Stafford the A L O from Norfolk and Stafford erm whatsisname from Stafford so I mean I can't see why we can't I think that's a good stop gap yeah do a five day course ourselves You're talking about a five day A L O course now, yeah get em get em to do some sort of training I mean I know we're we're bodging it again but I mean it's better than nothing but it's I'd rather see it bodged and some credibility left with district and city councils than er a hole that I think it's a priority I do, and we can do that towards the end of nineteen ninety-four then couldn't we ourselves well soon rather than later could do it sort of December January time, erm got to get all these C P Os selected and in post for a start. I just feel that to rely on Stafford to to to them in there is, they only run A L O courses a year Right I mean they're probably booked up now for the next three or four years anyway yeah mm No they do it year by year I know they do Jed but but I mean what I'm saying if priority states other forces have probably been waiting and rather than us sort of trying What I've got I've already booked one this year for Paul in July, well that's a waste of time now, so er at least one of them will be able to go on a ye yer you know there'll be a, there'll either be John or Alan been on the standard course that can go on the A L O course. mm Let's move forward. We're not gonna get them to change their mind. We've got to make the best of a bad job we've got to find a way of training both C P O's change their mind, there must be there must be nine other posts that if they look round they could civilianise not I mean they haven't got to tell the public much it have they you still talk about the same amount of officers being civilianised. I mean er I think if you put a good It's been approved by the policy group and it's been approved by police committee. It's unlikely they're going to do an about turn. It is unlikely but I mean that those decisions were taken through without without the the proper input from the department concerned, but you know I mean surely if we can go with with I'll a cast iron logical argument you could you could then even phase it over a longer period Now that's different you'll not get em to cancel it but to get them to spin it out over a longer period is a possibility and that's what we're gonna be working towards. I think But if we say to them er we can't argue against the principle of civilianisation of C P O's that's been there ad nauseum. That was approved three years ago on policy group, Stuart was there and he he agreed that it was a feasible option to civilianise C P O's. My argument is it's being done all in one go that we're trying to do nine on one day. That evaluation exists in group three mm It only reached there by Chief Superintendent knew what he was bloody talking about. mm Well the principal of having civilians as C P O's is one thats been accepted nationwide not just force wide. Now having having done that if we were doing three a year I would suggest we can cope with that. My big concern is that nine in one go all at the mini divisions and they're all very much on their own out there, and there's nobody to hold their hand through any for through the probationary period. How do we know at the end of six months whether they are performing well or not. What I've said is that I'd like to see the existing C P O's become divisional staff at the division that they are working now so that the divisional commander can allow them to stay there holding hands with the new civilian C P O for up to six months if necessary because it then becomes a local decision as to when the when the two have that umbilical cut. That and I appreciate one or two might want to go and work on other divisions but I if generally they were kept on the division that they are now then it could be a very gradual process of going back into uniform. Anyway perhaps if if I come back to you after next Tuesday afternoon when I've got a meeting to talk just about that subject with the deputy and see what options are going to come forward. The was just whispering in my ear would it be a good idea for the dep to have er er a community affairs meeting to mm I mean I think we've only ever met him once since we've been here, he's our head of department, its an issue that affects not just you as the bo as the head of department also the people on the ground I mean er surely it wouldn't do any harm to actually sit down and put some veiws forward from the whole department Yeah, yep It's our credibility as well you know we're being told quality of service etc etc and I think it ought to be a department meeting we all ought to have the opportunity to put forward what we're doing and where we're going. Yeah Can I shut this window Dave? Yeah but I think I think it's right are you using your expertise now Dave Yes You do realise he's locked us in, can we break into the bar Right I will invite the deputy to an emergency meeting on this one subject not not with a big agenda like that No But to talk about the way forward to do with A L O's so can we all address our minds to the problems that we perceive ma make some notes so that we can draw up a proper agenda of all the issues likely to be encountered through the civilianisation programme okay? I'll get him I'll get er Jane to give me a few dates and we'll suit choose a suitable date and we'll try all of the aspects everything about A L O work about the training, some of these we've almost got solutions to ourselves we ought to be careful erm, if we can er draw up a proper agenda and discuss with him all of those issues By discussing reasons with the deputy I mean we had the meeting on public relations before Christmas and the scrutiny was promised and nothing's happened erm, we still soldier on we're not. It was we need It was on the agenda and at seven o'clock the at night they eh they adjourned the meeting cos they only got half way through the agenda Mm we expected to perform in a professional way, particularly after incidents like last week when we had an horrendous twenty four hours and we don't get paid for it Yep It was scrutiny wasn't it. Yeah he mentioned to me about a month ago well I think it was at Christmas, it was probably at Christmas time He mentioned it to me at Christmas as well And of course now that the chief is er P L O ing It doesn't help existing staff though does it it helps staff from A L O ing P L O ing I think that just puts it into bloody perspective Gaza Strip more interested in designing the bloody Gaza Strip than . Why don't they civilianise chief constables could be a job for you in Gaza. If we start at the top instead of the bottom it'd be a bloody sight more efficient. Positive suggestions that's what I like. That's how it used to be though Aye Well and we're going back to basics so yes if they're keeping the politicians happy by keep the trou civilianising troops from the ground nobody looks at those at the top Mm Bu but if anybody wanted to rationalise anything properly you could actually start civilianising from the top Because the managers are required at the top not policemen Mm You could look very carefully at personnel, certainly could er I think I personally would rue the day that we had a civilian stone cold with that sort of post because its priorities would be so different to ours If you had a bloke like John tha that virtually ran the force for several years whether you liked him or whether you didn't he he he was efficient in running the force erm especially when Charlie was was into the erm in a big way and he spent very little time with Nottinghamshire John ran the force made the decisions and cracked on with it Mm Mm Yep and a lot of people would agree with you. Can we move on. Er Notts neighbourly news, David. Yes we had a meeting a few weeks ago to discuss the future and it was agreed that we should have three issues a year rather than four, I think this would be welcomed by local police stations gotta change the dates to act on market research which indicates certain months when certain security devices sell well. We've talked to the existing publishers and this was now eight weeks ago and they still haven't written despite many phone calls from me to put suggestions forward as to costings and so on. We've also approached Nottingham Evening Post who've expressed an interest in taking it on, but again we still haven't got a meeting, so I intend ringing them both this week, and stressing that we need to get a move on because really we need an issue out by March. We did discuss themes for each issue, but this will be security themes, and it would help the people who are producing the paper to sell because this is one big moan they've had, they don't know what the content is until the last moment if they knew it was say er car security they could approach garages and car security device manufacturers etc. So that's the way forward we hope to retain a sixteen page issue three times a year, a bit more thinking behind it and er hopefully produced at erm no extra cost to us, that's why we've gone to another supplier. Er Talkthrough is is due out again four times a year er in its same format as a eight page A four. I mean I would love to see a newspaper but the current staffing of the office doesn't permit that also the costing of it erm but I've very little input from this department and really while all out and about in the force and just a tip off about something human interest or whatever would be appreciated . Our press stories in general and working with Keith now over and also the launch of Dare which has got a few problems er are there any other major yes Sold secure on the seventh no er seventh of March of March seventh of March, yeah have you a location for that yet? Hopefully It's er booked for Yeah, that'll be fine Mike, yeah right we need to talk about that Deputy's free and I've booked him for the launch What time will that be? er ten a m ten thirty ten thirty right so I haven't had a briefing on that so I can . Well we've we only went to the if you like the training session of the er erm participants yesterday and we've got our next meeting on the 22nd February that I've invited you to at . Must check me diary. Great Er any other new coming up Drugs hotline, you obviously included that Yes er we're going to the drugs squad Dave and I the launch of a new hotline which is where people can report dealers, a little bit sceptical about its success but we've spent quite a lot on posters and business cards . The business cards have been left in custody suites and so on for people to pick up but the problem is I think are the drug squad going to service it properly they are so busy er that's going to be difficult. The launch is going to take place at central police station Well it's their initiative and That's right So presumably they've got to manage it themselves Erm They asked for it they got it, they can't turn around and say we're too busy to deal with it it was their idea I don't think they'll say it, but they might find they are What about victim support Yes, erm nineteenth -twenty sixth of Feb victims week, several meetings now with erm publicity they're gonna contact you. It's the first I've heard of it Yeah, it only happened last week, Thursday Erm, we've got some publicity material produced, posters we intend doing several displays county hall, headquarters, all police stations will have posters sent out to them, probably libraries will be circulated with them, er it's a last minute job typical we only just found about it, we do what we can we need some sort of press exercise don't we you know. Get you some victims to be included because presumably they want to appeal for more members That's right, more recruiting and possibly money Well not so much money, they've got the money, they want really resources human resources, Paul's gonna do a article for us in the Herald and Post Who is? Paul, Oh right With his your column yeah yeah my column I'm gonna talk to Dave to see whether or not he's finished his erm neighbourhood watch article whether they can put something in there about and then we hope to have a meeting with you to discuss victims and some erm press releases for that week. That's a late warning though isn't it Yeah received it last week Chief brought it to the meeting on Tuesday evening last week but the quickest like most national organisations somebody was sick right E B P week is the twenty first March What's that Educational Business Partnership which is part of Greater Nottingham Tec, major funders so they are er taking over the erm design centre on for a week. What was the date of that again the twenty first of March. Illustrating the links between business and education, and I have said that we are a major business in the area we have probably stronger links with education than any other business that I can think of, and they are going to be sa singing our praises so we are going to putting quite a big display in the in the fashion centre. mm Well, that's the week of John drama project the twenty fourth of March which done with That's North Notts then? Yeah, which is but it's still education Yeah erm, W we were putting the er kitchen and the display in there for the week. And also don't forget Nottinghamshire show is the 6th and 7th of May. Did you submit the plans for that kitchen to the A L O group? Yes,that's right we did I think we can say that the A L O er washed it hands completely Well clear especially when it came to humping it into the van the A L O was nowhere to be found. Can you make a note of the North Notts drama festival yeah What was the date of that? Oh sorry the er the drama competition is 24th March Yeah it's sponsored by North Notts Tech,that for publicity as well. The Nottinghamshire show is the 6th and 7th and as most of you know now we're going to build the equivalent of Coronation Street on quite a large area spanning a hundred years of er of burglary, that that's the theme. Once again David will be tremendously involved in it. a magpie again? with maggots coming out the beak any further initiatives moving on later in the year which we can diary at this stage. There's certainly certainly over May Day May bank holiday oh the weekend the city extravaganza I've had three letters now, one from David, one from you and one from Beeston all assuming that I seem to be dealing with this subject, erm it's a Beeston commitment Yeah I've left a message for Beest Chris to ring me back back about it and as yet he hasn't rung me back. I will ring him again this afternoon, but it's May day and I I've no doubt that Beeston won't be authorising their C P Os to work on a bank holiday That's it ain't it in a nutshell Erm Because it's their money that's gonna be ah to be fair Terry is one of the better commanders yeah he's not caused us any hassle at all, er he's been very helpful yeah but, I can't see him authorising bank holiday workings and so bank holiday exhibitions are almost a thing of the past. What is the commitment like for display unit during the year I get the impression it's not used as much as it used to be No it's not it's not ain't got time have not got the time to be doing but when you think about it and I I'm not being derogatory here mm crime prevention officers are traditionally and it's a public relations exercise ain't it, it's nothing to do with crime prevention they want to talk about anything other than crime prevention yeah and it's a public relations exercise, and we've been lumbered with it you know over the years we've tried to push crime prevention and people come in and they do take notes of various things you know there's obviously some people who come in and talk about crime prevention which we can answer fully, there are other enquiries about everything from bloody recr uiting yeah recruiting, dog shitting on their street etc etc etc that we do our best to deal with in the yer know time honoured tradition of a policeman and a and we're police officer sorry, sorry Trace, er and er we just you know I think it's more a P R O thing than er anybody, but I don't expect you to man it, I don't expect Jenny or Ann or or Jane to man it the work wouldn't get done no but this is It is a shame, it's a good facility, yeah can't you offer it to divisions you know and say well we do we do come and it is, it is being used so I'm using it for Tottenham fair on third, second or third of er July, but only because I've managed to get a P C enthusiastic about doing it and he's gonna man it for the day. We also use it for consultations of use it for Broxstowe and Radford. Erm yeah It gets collected and don't get broken into and bloody generators stolen. Unfortunately when other divisions come and use it they seem to think they can pick up the caravan and there'll be a wonderful display in there yeah ready for them to use mm and the posters will all be there neatly in rows and all they have to do is smile is smile and er shake a few hands It's probably manned by your staff Well at the end of the day somebody's got to get it ready It's never not been cleaned for six seven months but we haven't got a Pat at the moment and its in and it's his responsibility. but in the plans for the reorganisation of community affairs there was an exhibitions officer wasn't there? there's still a need for that isn't there? That's right entirely It would save you all a lot of time There was a was er an exhibitions officer listed and a a burglar alarms inspectorate inspectorate Erm, and neither of them have been brought here, they've done the bit that suits them, of of of civilianising the the the er crime prevention officers but the bit that actually needed doing they've not done yeah but when you think of it the cost of the superintendent doing display work is enormous isn't it That's right yeah that's right. I appreciate I shouldn't be spending my time up a ladder, mm But sometimes it's the only way to get things done but they wouldn't allow it in industry or commerce No but as often as not I disagree with you they do nowadays they encourage management to work on floor level, they do well it's certainly in modern what is it? a month a year where they go back on the tools. that's right a month a year, go back and do the basics anyway,yes, which is once again a divisional commitment er it's a programme of course What's the date of that river thing? Operation Trent? No, no the boat show in Nottingham Oh aye Yes four day boat show is the regatta which is sometime in May although Mick will be involved with that, knows about that Paul has offered to help and Ray will do a lot of the running around so we have got people involved in that But Ray is on the on the river all the time that it's on he can't man the caravan. No, but he will do the preparatory work and he's taking photographs now for us, that can be blown up for display purposes and he's linking with marinas to find equipment so September nineteenth and twenty sixth two weeks Is that going to be No Severn Trent's work to Nine months or a year's time we may have a different animal working in that office and it may well be some person who has who does some J L O work to supplement John and does some project work, now er Jackie has indicated she'd love to fill that role, and we all know what project she'd want to be doing it, but er if we do put somebody in that role they will be project officer as well and on the wall will be a year planner and it'll have things like crucial crew gala day and all these major major things and that particular officer will work quite closely with the new Pat and they'll be able to take some of the weight off our shoulders so when we start planning for something like crucial crew you can delegate some of the work to the project officer and perhaps the other sergeant Now I know things don't always work out quite that straightforwardly but you know the last year has been a bastard of a year for us in terms of sickness, four S L O's have been on long-term sick we've lost Pat for all that time Jed was off for quite a while Yeah Dave was off with his hernia Ross , Wayne Lindsay we've not seen for a year, I mean I know things have been difficult for the last year Joe yeah, we've lost an enormous amount of staff probably a third of our staff disappeared in the last twelve months, and I think y you we must recognise it's bound to make an impact and here we are sitting here feeling a bit shell shocked and that's no doubt one of the contributory factors. Perhaps the year ahead's gonna be a lot easier for us. Certainly I hope they take that into consideration when we do the er annual report and what we've done because we haven't been half as active as what we have in the past, the annual report has got nothing to do with no I work don't mean work, I mean the H M I's report ah because the annual report this year is all they want to do is plug er three or four little topics that we've done er on a thematic basis. They don't want a report of the years work they just want us to talk about one or two things we've done Any more events? no Just move onto the next one then media trainer I started talking to the training school about doing some training for officers it started with C I D cos you often find that a D S is an acting D I and when we asked them to do an interview about a crime or incident they say we've not done radio interviews before, so Phil has er supported it and we're gonna run some sort of training scheme one day courses for them. Also er saw er Nick last week and he's agreed that we can offer a similar sort of training scheme around the force people apply just for er a one day course so what I'm saying to any community affairs staff certainly the new C P Os need to be Yes, yeah Alan is he going an all? He's gonna run it He's another one for etiquette. My wife my wife heard him on the radio on Saturday morning she said who's this why does he keep saying motor car, motor car it wasn't me no Don't start David off. I don't got time cos he's so busy running these man management courses oh oh oh oh oh quality of service inter-personal skills Somebody's asked the price you pay for genius Oh yeah, he's very good at solving big jobs, but er that's the price you pay I'm afraid. Right so we've got Paul and the three new C P Os who would like to go on some training right I'll I'll get round that somehow I'll let you know Yes, right if anybody else has got any feelings please let me have them How is em is Diane yeah Yeah Diane. Yeah, we probably could run one course for community affairs staff actually, we take about twelve people on it normally it'll be the new S L O perhaps probably the S L O I mean the new ones if and when selected there's a new post there Just to mention one more thing the force video, a number of community affairs staff have mentioned to me that it's out of date cos it goes back to the previous organisation it's also sexist sexist? Is it about policemen It says about scenes of crime officers cos most burglaries happen er in the early afternoon when when mum's gone out to pick up the kids before she comes home to cook the tea Oh I wouldn't know that. Now you play that in the school and watch er fourth form girls sort of you know I'm gonna start wrong Is that when the teachers have walked out Probably be as well to start teaching em that again oh oh oh That comes from er er an officer that's very shortly retiring. Revamping it to use some of the existing film and to include new film and new voice over and new look, it's about five or six thousand pounds. Can you sort of have you looked at the federation videos that we've got now. No Federation have got some super videos very very good model have you got em we we've ordered ten Steve has got one that he played at the last S L Os meeting, it lasts about four minutes it's as long as the song he ain't heavy he's my brother. are these national videos yep yep yeah the problem is videos done well can cost you thirty forty thousand pounds. The last one we had we had a budget of ten thousand pounds the company which did it said that it would normally not take on a project of that sort of cost but they found a junior member of staff to take it on and the end product I mean that's going back nearly five years now, was quite er acceptable and welcome but now it it looks very much out , the force has been reorganised, we need to give it a new look. Erm, can I say that it's only last year that we organised that video for secured car parks, and employed a blooming outside presenter to do it, and that cost us twelve thousand quid, and that were at Derby and they made an excellent bloody video of it didn't they? yeah an excellent video and it was twenty five minutes long yeah And they normally say that a minute of erm that is gonna be a thousand quid don't they a minute of video is a thousand quid Yeah but you see by going to the same supplier, we've got a lot of the film we can use that er there's been several days filming do we want to use it again? Well it's either that or start from scratch, and we're talking fifteen thousand pounds right I dunno I mean I'll mention it to the deputy again and say look we're getting towards the end of a financial year, there will be some departments underspent because er suppliers can't meet deadlines and really you should keep in mind that w we haven't got er we can't just pluck five thousand pounds out of our budget. I mean it would indicate that our budgets five thousand more than we really need on other years. Er and it's a force commitment it isn't I mean short of saving up over a period of years which we are not allowed to do Personnel uses a lot I mean for career shows and open days Let's have it out of personnel budget erm yeah good What I was going to say yeah I've been involved in a lot of videos over recent years and erm central er and there's a freelance budget which a caravan for central they usually charge about three or four thousand pounds depending on how long the video is they shoot it and they will then arrange to er edit it and produce about five thousand I find that these people who are so called on the cheap that the product is not very good, well if you say say you call it by one of them and it were crap yeah, I mean on the burglary project we did a super video about victims, they did one for school which Steve was involved in which was excellent and you know so the quality is not in doubt. But I think the best recommendation is when big business has used that company to produce a video for themselves, you know the companies with the big budgets and so on it's an indication of the quality cost a lot of money? Yeah but if it's going to be shown to ultimately thousands of people and to last at least a couple of years, we should invest in it. Em But as I say that I recommend them because they were er excellent. They did all the shooting in two days actually and er they made a blooming good job of it. Well I've got a feeling that if you do a video we're gonna reorganise anyway in the light of er what's going to happen in near future, getting rid of chief superintendents and things like that, we might be wasting money again. As the review of the nineteen ninety three year alteration been complete of the authority Well no, if you remember they they've just started now a review of nineteen ninety three's reorganisation because everything that moved from Newark to West Bridgford has moved back again Yeah ain't it I can't see them keeping that division together for very long Well as I say they're reviewing the whole lot again. The whole nineteen ninety-three reorganisation is being reviewed. That's it it's been done. is back with the Chief now. Yeah it's back with him, but as I say the overall implications haven't er been sorted out. I think from the video's point of view the S I hardly ever use it anymore er right They've agreed they're gonna use this federation one as a short stop gap an an I think Paul's point is spot on, it might be a bit silly to jump in just at the moment There's a lot of stuff happening nationally which could affect us, and for the sake of eighteen months we might be as well waiting. mm By the way, there was one thing that we didn't mention when we were talking about C P O's that is very pertinent is that already, I've got it on authority, that one of the C P O's that we've employed as a civilian has been offered a job with an alarm company at fifteen thousand a year has he? Mm And that's without any training That that's dependent on him trained Quite frankly the salaries you offer these C P Os is if they weren't retired police officers, you wouldn't get the calibre of person. that's right And that's not fair quite frankly, with the current job situation Now we might get some very very good qualified erm civilians apply for the post if it was fifteen thousand a year plus Mm Well they would say hang on, you had one hundred and thirty seven applicants as it was Yeah I know but a lot of them were crap, mm yeah Right we seem to have gone back to subject four there don't we, eh where are we now? eight eight Keith, sounds like an interesting one, computer training purchase for C A staff Yep, there's been a lot of occasions in the last two to three months when I could really have done with access to a computer. Erm to sit down, it's alright saying that I've got Alf and I've got Tracey there are times when I I need to sit down and jiggle stuff about, and look at something posters and things well not posters, the horsewatch is a prime example where I wanted to look at setting a format in a particular way, and to sit at the side of either Alf or Tracey well now alter it to that or to that I'm sure they'd do it, but nevertheless it's putting them off their work. What I'm saying to you is, erm I don't expect for one minute to have a computer installed in my office,ccessdon'tw alter it to that a particular way, and to uh uh Mind you've got access to one? When I'm trained, I'm going to in my office in the near future I thought I thought you were going to get one on your desk, one like Jed's that hums all the time. It is programmed That's Well okay, I need to say that when it's long reports I have no problem, I mean since I've lost Doreen and come under Tracey the quality and speed that I get typing back is much improved. I'm not saying that to embarrass her. I can put fax stuff to Tracey and have it back the next day, but I've got to physically fetch it, that is the only disadvantage or arrange to get it picked up. What do you want to use the computer for? But I mean stuff like memos small memos and things like that by the time I've sat and written it out I could've put it straight onto a word processor myself and got it typed. This this stuff like em er storing things lists mailing lists, er mailing lists for the sold secure which I'm the secretary of. Get yourself on the course that Paul went on and you're gonna be getting the kit soon anyway, as part of the network, it won't give you stand alone, but you have to have somebody on the network yeah Cos people are going to be sending you messages on it Oh right Get yourself on the course, ring er Sue or somebody, at the training school, tell her your problem It's Jeff you write to Is it Jeff right, get yourself on the course, it shouldn't be difficult to get on the course, Paul got on it, without even knowing he was on it. They rang one up in the morning to say why aren't you here? Well what about the kit, who's I mean are you responsible on the list to get one, Yes, em Another terminal, cos when you start to use it you realise the value of it Presumably my printer would be one of those linked back to the Apple yeah yeah the printer would do that, but your machine here would be linked into a storage computer storage system here at Mansfield which every now and again it sends all the information down the telephone lines to headquarters, and it's done every is it every two hours? yeah or is it two hours in the morning? They do it every two hours. But the thing is that your er particular area you know, if you wanted to do one and not save it, you don't have to save, you know, you know you can print it off and it's done, but you can send mail to Tracey or headquarters C A, you wouldn't have to print it out once it's what you want you just press a button and it goes. But in theory you could do posters here at Mansfield and you could send out, we could print them in colour for you right So I mean there are other advantages, and the answer is that in in in the long term you are getting your name down for one, so clear a space on your desk it's a week's course Yeah, cos I think Ann's been two courses now and we've picked her brains so we can have basic use, but er you start to realise it's only a little bit of the system you know, you could do a lot more Well they sent me, I went on a computer course two days before I went to in hospital and was away for eight weeks and I forgot totally Well so the answer is yes, you'll be getting one, if you check with them they'll tell you what the timescale is I wish all items were as easy as this. Number nine. Oh This is a good one. diet and behaviour project. Don't think there's any truth in this at all. Okay that's finished that then. Right then next one number ten. About Go on then when was it November, Er no, no Recently, recently Dave and I er were grabbed by the throat by em a woman and her husband from Worksop called and woman called Barbara , and she's been involved with er a fella called Superintendent er in West Yorkshire. um I see right. In West Yorkshire they do a lot of studies university type studies on behavioural problems in kids, affecting, being affected by what they eat and they've done trials on all sorts. So she came and talked to 'em we had a long chat and actually I mean it er does sound very interesting . We'll probably take this on paper,so the reason it's on the agenda is to tell you as a department that we've had this sent to us, erm we've got a meeting later this week to actually sit down and analyse it and to put something on paper to send up to command. My theories with it,my er great cynical look at it is, they they need a hundred offenders and a hundred non offenders to be referred to them for these tests. I mean the offenders aren't named or anything it's all computerised numbering, but of course in West Yorkshire they've used the juvenile liaison officer there's no way I can put this onto No, no certainly John , there's no way, erm First of all, has this project official backing from command Our command? no, because it's not been put to them yet Yeah Yeah but what are we gonna word it in such a way as they're not gonna give it? probably cos' of the cos of the er Well the new the new demands on the just don't I mean just don't allow any scope No any leverage at all I I've got to say that it's somebody that's got a personal project that has done it in one force ain't it. Now that particular force if they're anything like the other forces that I deal with, ain't under the stresses and strains that we are. When you look at Lincolnshire and they've got a Chief Inspector as a force crime prevention officer and they've got an inspector as a deputy force crime prevention officer, and their crime is a third of ours, or well less than a third of ours,y y you start getting things into perspective and I think they're trying to put too much work onto a too over-worked task force already. This is Leeds where they've done this, so I wouldn't have thought they were under-worked. No Er the reason we wanna get it right is because er this Superintendent , erm he's obviously got his interests very much on it, and he's he's keen to know what our response is going to be, and if it were just a member of the public I think we could we could being crude I think we could fob 'em off, but I think it's gonna have to be a very structured answer as to why we're not gonna do it. We might look at it and think it's worth doing it's interesting. What we say is that our juvenile liaison officers are working six or seven between six and ten hours unpaid overtime every week, just trying to do their normal core work. To start giving them new projects is unrealistic and we can't authorise it. It would incur large overtime commitments, have they any idea who is likely to pay it? Cos we can't. I'd love to do it, really because I think you know er there's a lot of evidence pro and there's a lot of evidence against, and I like to I wonder if they would supply us with a researcher Oh yeah they do they supply the researcher All we do is allow them access to that's all we do files Oh Well that's, but the referral has to be done by the juvenile liaison No, I mean actually come to one of the officers and sit there and they do the work, so it doesn't bother us at all. All we do is make sure that they're not taking anything Because it's home office funding It er could lead the way open to a major breakthrough in in crime prevention really. And it as well. They could Chief Inspector Williams from here. We will know that certain dietary supplements will stop crime,is a good example in the cell block and we and somebody was causing trouble many many years ago The on Thursday at one o'clock if you want to come to the meeting. Sometimes you can be very radical He's always radical The master's done it. Yeah Somebody's having digs at Right, very interesting In fact it's got your writing on it Sir, Next one,initiative, er Jed sold secure. We're progressing at great rate of knots at the moment. All our twelve participating garages received their initial training yesterday. It was excellent training. I tell you, if I'd have know what the content of the training was gonna be, I would've arranged for our twelve crime prevention officers to go across there and listen to it, because there was a locksmith there that gave a lot of sound advice in relation to security of homes as well cars that really was good basic grounding for a crime prevention officer. I did shock him with one answer, cos he he was expecting a totally different answer to the one I gave him which was correct, and you know that is unusual for me, but er I did shock him with one, but other than that it was erm it was er an excellent input all the way through the day, and they explained the differences and why they er approved some products and not the others, things like that, it was er spot on. And he made one or two of the garage men you know really the the you could see one or two were taken aback by the things he were saying, and it was er very very professionally put over. Our next meeting of our local group we refused to launch it on the day that we were doing the training, and if you'd seen the launch yesterday it was absolutely bloody abysmal. Erm all it was in the middle of a training session the Chief Inspector at Lincolnshire got up and said er erm you know the members of the press who were there erm How many press did you get? One Lincolnshire Echo er the the the the the thing was now open. Er the Yorkshire television did phone up and apologise for not coming but er that was it. Erm the R M I F bloke was there and he said that's the second one he's been to where they've been doing the training and the launch at the same time and neither of them've gone well. Erm but like I think we've done it right. We're gonna get em trained up in the garages before we actually launch, but they are able now to say they are approved installers so they will be getting all the stuff, everything in relation to it, I've given em a list of the people involved in Nottinghamshire and it's the launch is on the seventh March at West Bridgford, and basically the system is ready and up and running, thank the Lord after hard work by er Keith and us all at various times, but it's been mainly down to Keith. It's the twenty seventh March is it? No, seventh of March. seventh At West Bridgford Police Station. So I've got to er one I've got it diaried to meet you and Keith about a press launch and er a you know a press release yeah then also er a talk with the dep about what he's gonna say, and I'm gonna put at the beginning please do not refer to this as being prepared for you, that's two times he's been to a launch and said that and he don't give it such a spontaneous thing, so er I did meet him and tell him is this reading your script Yeah so er I'll give him notes this time I think, and let him put the meat on the bone Bullet points mm Okay force watch, Keith Yes it will be launched, a bit late next Wednesday the ninth February at the section, not a big splash at all it's just a photo call for the press to come in and take such pictures and what have you. It will be split into local authority areas, erm it'll be a telephone pyramid type system, a handbook which is being printed I took the dummy, did you drop the dummy back to Steve yesterday? The dummy was dropped back to Steve yesterday at the printers and that's now gonna be done. Obviously it'll not be done for the launch but he's made a smart job of it it looks really smart done it in yellow, erm and really later on this week I'm just tidying up, I've got to go and see F I B just to make sure everything's in place with them in the mounted section and really this time a week tomorrow it'll be launched. Who's launching it Er me, I mean it's just it's just a photo call right Has Jane prepared the press release yet? She has done, I went to speak to her about it last Friday, but she was diverted cos She's on a course next week, so I'll I'm seeing her I'm gonna go and see her on she doesn't know, but I'll call in and see her on Thursday. Right, I'll tell her you're calling in Right Right, er on to any other business, David do you want to just give a ten minute summary about Parish special constables Mm yes, erm since the home office secretary's initiative it's progressing quite well, with interest from certainly Bassett, Newark Stanton on the Wolds Tollerton and some other of the rural Coldfield areas were interested in going forward, Bassett looked very very interested, we went to a meeting last night, eighteen parish councils were represented, er Beckingham is going to be the first one, they've got a special that lives there who's gonna take up the work, Superintendent came down last night to do a circular of em a questionnaire around the village and parish to get find out what people want, and then go and see what the specials able to provide and meet the two together and get some sort of contractive agreement, he'll work from the police house there, he'll have access to the car, when it's not being used by the rural officer, also his radio. problems that we generally will be hopefully er forestalled by that er action by the Superintendent. So that'll be the first one. When will that be? No dates have been arranged yet yeah But it'll be the next few weeks. Well I'd like to get involved in some sort of launch for it. I think Derbyshire have done quite a big thing and had some publicity for theirs. yeah it's rubbish innit all they're doing is team policing with specials. mm mm They drop off a van load of specials in an area and walk round with their helmets on What's the difference then, what's our scheme Well ours is a proper pukka job, David as you expect Yes yes Is there a blue print for what a parish constable should know No no The guidelines are put out at home office, but they really know what they were doing. Right So that's why we haven't, he wanted twenty, the home secretary wanted twenty up and running before Christmas, he didn't say which Christmas, but we presumed he meant last Christmas, and we said no, we'll do it properly and get it started up right Can, can I just I thought that my perceptions of this was there were twenty schemes already in existence er split between parish wardens and parish constables and there was gonna be a report put back to the er home secretary for him to decide the way forward and er that er we would wait for the evaluation of that scheme before we went further. No, totally wrong Jim Well that was that That was my original they had a competition to look out for people who've got ideas about this new idea, it was a ridiculous idea to do a competition cos people didn't know what they were entering for, half the parishes weren't notified about it, Er, mm so those few that entered most of them got prizes and it was three police forces that entered and they all got awards. And the award was a certificate from the home secretary a very treasured certificate from a highly respected member of the cabinet, and erm where it's gone from there we had a meeting at the home office Did you note the sarcasm in the voice hm Mr Er the home office really didn't know what they were talking about they gave these two models of the unpaid volunteer er no uniform, no training, no powers, to come out from the community work with the community under the eyes and ears of the police. Or the second model they gave was the special constable either a newly recruited special or a person who is an existing special to work in the in the parish. The vast majority of people entered the competition also were at the er home office meeting favoured the second option,existing special or recruiting a special to work in the area. David could you do me a report on that for command because I suspect nobody's picture at all. No no. Mr had a meeting with Mr last week Did he? Yeah yeah But he'll only talk about Well no, Mr is sort of co-ordinating the whole thing Okay and er Gary was involved yesterday in drawing some plans up with er Nick right So Are these existing special constables then Well it depends in in that particular one yes, er in other areas there was interest from the floor last night about local people who would like to become specials so one or two forms were handed out, application forms, We had a phone call yesterday from a a civilian detention officer working at Trent who lives in my village of Tollerton who wants to be a special constable to work just in Tollerton. He's already had two anyway through recognising people that have been through his hands in the cell block, an following 'em and finding them climbing through a window. Is that reasonable suspicion? Yeah, and it was his bungalow. When you think about it the two big problems are transport and communication mm If you're a C D O at Trent and you know you're gonna go out on patrol as a special that night, there's no doubt Trevor will let you take a radio home with you, as long as you bring it back the next day. So you've resolved your tr communication problem straight away. So I think Tollerton stands quite a good chance of getting that one through. It could be quite a good er model. And you don't need transport cos the village is small enough. Mm In fact we had a letter didn't we from the neighbourhood watch co-ordinator saying that she sort of goes on patrol when she takes the dog a walk Mm She would like some sort of mobile communication to alert police, well it's an interesting area, but it would cost a fortune to provide mobile phones Well parish councils are now looking to fund To be fair most of us were P C's for quite a few years without radios and we worked out extremely well didn't we, without those radios yeah but but but society has somewhat changed in twenty five twenty eight years b but I think some of the rural villages of today where this is gonna take place aren't all that different to the sort of No that's true Beestons, the Carltons and the Mansfields that we patrolled twenty years ago. And er it's a question of initiative and if if there is a local need for some sort of communications well perhaps the parish councils can find some way local sponsorship yeah yeah Is there some sort of limit within the policy that we've got on the size of a place cos Newark's a big place to have a parish constable. Newark wanted to take it forward and er I went and talked to them and I said to them you're not really appropriate, what you want is to recruit some more specials Yeah Yeah, but Stanton on the Wolds is too small, we're trying to link them in with Keyworth and it might well be he could do Tollerton as well. if it's a foot patrol officer that's walking round the er you don't want them in cars do you, really? No course not But that but that's tha that's defeating the whole object of the exercise of getting you know more foot patrols, because it's foot patrols that they're talking about all the time, if you give 'em a car you go back to the you know the fire brigade syndrome when it was zip zip zip The big benefit is that they are seen walking about Mm People feel safer if they see a police man that's what I thought, what I thought In my experience it's a I would've said that, but last night this meeting said they'd very much like to see a officer in a car because they don't see anybody at the moment I think that would defeat the object in small places because you can hear these diesel cars coming a hundred miles away, in the later hours you can yeah And the villains just listen for it, you walking round and hide in the doorway for five minutes you see far more far more I think they'd say that they'd like to see an officer in a car because they don't see anybody, what they really mean they want to see somebody they can talk to That's right They don't see anybody at the moment Dave so anything's better than nothing That's right. But if you put somebody in there who and and they become disassociated with the people I mean the way we look at it really is to group villages together so perhaps they'll have more cover if they've got two or three specials who work different hours if they have a vehicle they can have access to, provide the cover there. But you don't drive from village to village They just drive round perhaps driving it parking it up and having a walk That's why these service agreements are being drawn up they will do so much foot patrol If they're gonna be driving from village to village, they might as well work from a police station and drive from village to village in a transit van or a police vehicle. Right then, we were talking about local parishes, and in most cases a parish is sufficiently small to walk round. Some of them are quite big north of the county Not like a village it's a parish it's a lot bigger than a village Yeah but I mean you're not bothered about the parish you're not bothered about you're bothered about really Well no the farmers the farmers were most keen on it, I mean There's no point in us getting bogged down, every parish is so different to every other parish, they've got to look at local needs, that's not our priority. If they want to do it then they it's going on anyway. Anything else on your list David? Er Farm Watch was mentioned last night. Yeah It received a lot of interest, the N F U were there er and the area, that area was very very keen on getting something together Well The way we tried to turn them er despite Bill we decided to try to turn them to become involved in neighbourhood watch schemes, which there are plenty of already, and erm they were quite interested in that the farmers that were there. What do you mean despite them? Well Bill stood up and was a bit negative really to the whole idea of parish constables, farm watch and everything else, it was quite disappointing There are quite a few farm watch schemes around the county Well Let let can I tell you in conjunction with Lincolnshire erm the N F U produced a leaflet that they're circulating to a hundred thousand of their membership in er, it's a real mis-match of counties, Warwickshire, Northamptonshire, Leicestershire, Notts, Lincolnshire right, and er we've got our logo on the back er, because I checked the er you know checked the content of it, and it didn't put too much onus on police setting up schemes and what not, but the N F U are delivering one of these leaflets in the next week or two to every one of their members in er that particular area, so no doubt we'll be getting some er contact with it. Er the N F U representative for Nottinghamshire, based in Stanford has been to see me about it last night Yeah, I think I think it was Mm Er has been to see me about it, but I've said that the initiative for farm watch has got to come from them, I said, we're not gonna stand up and draw up a load of support and expect us to service the damn thing, I said it's up to you and your members to do it, and I still think he's trying to get us to do it via the back door, He's been to talk to me now about it, and I've told him exactly what I want to do and that we we'll be involved, but it ain't gonna be a police run scheme, it's gonna be a farmer's run scheme with police support locally. but I think that's, before it goes too far that's the bit you've got to get together is the police support 'cos if you look at Woodborough and Calverton they've got a farm watch system in that area, the farmers were very very keen on doing That's right I can quote you three particular instances where farmers have rung in with good information only to be told at the other end of the phone what the bloody hell have you rung us for and they've got nothing within the local police whatsoever. Exactly they're totally disgusted Exactly the same as members of neighbourhood watch schemes So until we get a organised, you know it's no good sort of encouraging em all to become members for them to ring in, only to get that stone wall, that's right response at our end, and as as I said, I know that person, three particular incidences which were good incidences to report two of them would've certainly resulted in arrests, and they got an absolutely negative reply. Well they did quite well, because one of the people quoted an incident last night said they got an . Yeah, because they put them through to crime prevention department, yeah, they do half past five in the morning yeah and that's the problem with this sort of whatever sort of watch you wanted to do, unless unless we encourage and get the backing of the troops on the ground we're kicking ourselves in the teeth Harry over at Calverton actually got a farm watch going Mm Can I say that really all details of these watch schemes should go to Paul, so he's got some detail of them. When people ring in and say is there a farm watch anywhere, Paul can get his folder out He had very little response to that memo you sent out the other week, I've taken no phone calls whatsoever about notification of different watch schemes I think there's just one Around this table, we all know of a dozen or so watch schemes out in the dark Will you make sure that Paul's got some reference, so he knows who to go to He doesn't want a running file, he just needs enough detail to know who's running things, who's in charge of it, with phone numbers so we can pass people on to the correct person, okay. So all watch schemes if its only just one half a page, Cos I mean they've got signs up round and Calverton That's the farmers union I believe no, I don't know it's as well that we have nothing to do with No and that's a national We have circulated it on the erm on Yeah but that forecourt watch is almost er a crimestoppers type of thing, it's not actually a watch scheme, it's a reward a rewards job for Yeah, but we have police watch D Do you know do you know that Norfolk where the headquarters are where the incident room is, Norfolk have not had one reported incident to that forecourt watch, cos I spoke to the control staff, not had one to the force where it's actually been centred. No, but they've had 'em all over the country Yeah Yeah but Norfolk is, I mean Jeds point, Norfolk haven't really got the problems that we've got, No Yer know, you don't We've been acting on a It's a garage watch Yeah Yesterday they The thing is what I've got to say is, they live in, in a different world from us, the six forces in the er our region and Derbyshire are er second to us, a distant second and then the other four have got no problems compared with us We just about figure out how to together And yet they seem to have more resources, more crime prevention officers, more everything See that launch at Lincolnshire, their P R department are far bigger than ours And it was And they've got an Inspector and Sargeant seconded to them all the time, and a highly paid civilian and other civilian staff Er service We we're doing an excellent job with limited resources, if everybody was as efficient as Nottinghamshire there wouldn't be no blooming Yeah but we're defeating our own, we are sometimes successful successful in doing these schemes and because resources on we are hard pressed, resources on the ground are thin then when people ring up with these schemes that we get it off the ground they meet this negative sort of answer when they ring in, that's the only sort of er liaison with themselves and the police and they're met with that, and their reaction then is down the pub tell their mates don't ring in cos its a reaction, and that's the trouble with us being, as it were too successful before, better to be less successful, but we'd have more staff at the centre like Lincolnshire etc to actually get the difference from when somebody does the odd person does ring in they get a response to it What's the problem with this new switchboard, has it settled down now or we were getting all sorts of complaints initially Oh yeah I know people couldn't get through Oh its its its chronic, Tracy and Yvonne take hundreds of calls that are nowt to do with us, we've what was it, we had complaints and discipline on on Friday afternoon, they wanted Superintendent J Smith and complaints and discipline on Friday afternoon, she were just gonna transfer it and Jim walked in so we just had a phone call for you he said how did you knwo I was here, well good timing But they they're the kinda, it don't matter what it is, we've Lot of the calls we get are for like Jackie or Coldwell, they're not based here Yeah You could probably get very frustrated about six extensions Mm Don't we start logging them, who's in charge I don't think the public know that the every call they make comes to headquarters So they just ask for crime prevention and they get it Well it's not encouraged is it, because they're still told to to ring the divisional telephone number Yeah Right, becasue we're trying to maintain the image of it being locally Yeah And that's when you get the problems, I had a chap ring me, he wanted to report a crime, and he says well you're only just down the road, at , I said no I'm not I'm at Sherwood Lodge, he said I didn't ring Sherwood Lodge I rang police station Yeah And er, I think we're misleading the public aren't we Yeah And also, if if if you're in an area like me and mine's , if I ring my local police station, Eastwood and I'm paying for a trunk call or an out of area call, costing me twice as much Yeah It's costing me twice as much for the call It shouldn't be, if you dia if you dialled the erm number or whatever you should be charged that rate I know, I know it I know it's no good but so still ring your own number, then its routed there at our cost, not yours Oh, but the public think they're ringing a local police station yeah yeah Well you see, but you see the people on the switchboard know which one they've rung Yes they do Mm It says so on the switchboard, which one they've rung, now if they ask for crime prevention and they phoned number, they should be put through to the bloody crime prevention Not offloaded to crime prevention headquarters which is of course, when you get one of those calls and you divert it back to the switchboard or divert it direct to when you put the phone down pick it up and dial zero, so you put another call through to headquarters community affairs and its not through us Tell 'em every time Mm They'll soon get tired of you telling 'em They'll laugh What we're doing is it's germs and we are telling the people that they've got the power to change it, keep telling the switchboard operators, cos' when you press zero that actually do answer very quickly Mm So you've just put an another call through Well they do the times I've tried for up to five minutes waiting for switchboard to answer Mm Yeah Well,fairly quickly I think I use directory enquiries They've got nought noughts the superintendents answer quickly Well Frank er checking all this isn't he, he's monitoring Is he? it, yes it it's his brief, so I suppose we ought to feed information to him That's right I mean who whose whose getting most of the problems, the person with the most problems is the person who puts the report in to Frank . Suddenly, it all goes quiet. But if its going to be happening on a regular basis in to Tracy, then perhaps Paul should put a report in to Frank . One of the problems was that the type of people they recruited to man to staff the switchboard were from outside, they didn't know the force Em An and you take the surnames and they react to the first surname, I get race stories er calls occasionally Oh if I ever get they get both of them, like Superintendent J , well which one, can I have Mr Williams, well do you want Chief Inspector or Inspector they just bung 'em through, still same surname, but Er yeah, it's gonna take the staff a long time to know all the names yeah, it's inevitable isn't it Mm I don't get many calls these days, not many one a fortnight, one a fortnight Thank you, get yer mail as well quite regularly for him Tracy yep And and for Mr Williamson yeah, I get quite a bit of stuff for er yeah Well that's the problem, lets pull this together we've had a good grumble about telephones and mail system now It's important though I I I think the grumble came you raised it didn't you from the different sort of watches yeah and my comment was that before getting too sort of wound up about the way we get public the basis is you keep going in at the wrong level it's the educational process at ground level dealing with telephone is probably a five year plan for the whole force isn't it It it's more than that it's it's making lads and lasses aware of what the schemes are, I mean nobody's ever said to them reaction to some of these schemes I agree with what you're saying, but we should also look at what we do, for instance David when you go out you virtually never divert your telephone, everytime you go out ten minutes later I get up and go and divert your phone for you, if we get into the habit of diverting our phones then we we wouldn't have that problem. But your phone and Ian's yesterday and oh somebody elses ringing all morning long. Oh I was only out twenty five minutes David your the worst for not diverting your telephone when you go out But that I bet I've done it four or five times this year already Yeah bu bu but the thing is its You must get into the habit of diverting it yourselves, before we start shouting at everybody else No, yes Your phone rings and rings and rings Yeah but it End of tape Hello. Hello. Well, what can I do for this day? See if you could give me some Doctor. to it. No it's the tablets and that I'm . Were you still waiting for that now? Right? Mm. That's healed really bad. and weeping. I can't walk. right. Well that's needing healed up again. Aye. right. But I admit matter. You still on ? . Mhm. Okay . Alright. Now, I've given you some cream to put on as well Anne. Right. Now, put that on three times a day and you put the tablets, you take the tablets four times a day. What the tablets for? It's an antibiotic stuff to clean it from the inside. Ah right. Because there's inflammation round about the inside of the pin It's that that's weep. and it's starting to come out, aye. It's starting to come out Mm. onto the skin. And trouble you. do you? Yes. Oh aye. I am. Oh aye. Mm. Oh aye. More or less. See Doctor , see my toes? I've seen them going kind of black, you know? Yes. That's okay. Is that alright? Don't don't worry about that. I maybe No. No. No. No. No. You've no you're not going to come to any harm with that . See these tablets you gave me? They're no use. I prefer to keep Are they not? with the . Mhm. that I've got. Right. Because you gave me ten milligrams and t the five's not very strong. But I'm not very well with them and I just think they're terrible. Save on the . Right. But er if you haven't heard, how long have the pins been in now, Anne? two year. A year and a half. If you haven't heard within the next two or three months, come in and see Mhm. again and we'll get onto the Mm. hospital because that's I know, I mean I've skin, Aye. but er twice so I didn't get . Right. And then I, I was at Doctor 's but he er he hasn't sent me a letter . Right. Because he can't doing it. . I it seems it seems quite a long time And er at times, at spells, I've got to put on the pink bandage, at times, you know, to get the swelling back down. Right. Aye. Sounds as though the pins are needing to come out. Oh aye. definitely need to . Even the nurse said she could see it. Oh, well. Hmm hmm. Aye. Right. Er that's the strength or possibly three or . Right well. We'll get Right. that, we'll get that organized for you. Thanks Okay? very much. Right? Cheerio. Cheerio now. A letter to Mr at the surgeon at District Hospital. About Anne of . Dear Mr . You may have already saying that Mrs attended recently. She has a black and she asking about . turned septic. She's quite worried crusting and discharge but she's having . In fact been treatment with antibiotics and cream . However, she . I feel that she would Mr was also sharing his wife with Mr ? I haven't heard that. No. Right. Okay, yeah, right. So you see where we get to? Yes. You go into the master bedroom, man and woman in bed. Isn't it obvious in a second that it's not it's Mr and Mrs ? At that time no. No I'm afraid not, no. You still thought it was ? When you burst into the bedroom ? I I'm being perfectly honest, I didn't know who it was. I I didn't know er and I didn't know the occupants of the flat. No but you did know that the husband and wife and . You had no reason to think that was er sleeping with the man's wife I say again No Isn't it obvious within a second that you must be looking at the husband and wife? I have to say again I'm sorry no it it wasn't obvious to me at that time definitely not. You thought it, is this right, you thought it could be it could be ? I have to say that yes. And it was only er when this man, could have been , said what are you doing in my house? Yes You that you accepted that as as conclusive that it was and not . Not conclusive but certainly that is when I started thinking that we didn't have . That more likely is that you realised well nigh immediately that it was Mr , that's why you said to Mr I'm arresting you for harbouring an escapee. I had good reason then to suspect that it could well be . Because of what he said? Because of what he'd said and because I'd asked his wife who he was. Not because he was in bed with his wife that didn't ? I didn't know that was his wife, erm . Well I did bother to ask who you'd thought would be in the flat, you said Mrs Mr . Yes yes that's correct, yes. One minor point you heard the give evidence, you know it's a issue between you whether you shouted armed police or you didn't. Of course yes. There's no point in me um rehashing that. But why, you'd just forced the door open prior to arrest why do you wait until you got to the bedroom, indeed got the bedroom door open before shouting armed police. Why isn't it shouted from the start so that everybody knows from the start who you are? Okay right yep. Well the situation there is firstly there is little point in shouting and identifying ourselves if, firstly there's nobody in the flat, or secondly er we're giving advance warning that we are coming along the corridor to a possible location, er of somebody with a firearm. So what we would do then is identify the fact that we've come into the building and therefore alerted everybody that lo and behold down the corridor are coming police officers. But I thought you were saying in answer to a question my was putting to you that one of the reasons for shouting armed police was so that everybody knows you're armed police. That is correct yes, but only when we encounter somebody in front of us. Prior to that, definitely not. You weren't more than from the hall you were about six foot to the door to the master bedroom. I I can't recall . It was very close, yes. Crossing that distance I suppose in a hurry was going to take you erm considerably less than a second. Definitely, we don't if we were crossing an area that hadn't been secured by any other officer, so we were particularly concerned that we should get out of any possible danger area. So I'd suggest again that the sensible place to shout armed police is as soon as you enter because the fraction of a second between you getting from the hall to the bedroom isn't going to make any difference. Yes, I'd argue that it does make a difference, because we are announcing the fact that er we are coming along to to possibly alert somebody er that we were coming into a building and then hence we encounter even more problems. You can't answer for the other officers but you can answer for yourself. Would you agree with Mr that on this sort of raid the adrenaline's flowing? Without a doubt, definitely. Is a specific gun, issued to a specific officer or is it just er a a group of guns issued to a group of officers? Er, the easiest way to answer that is er all of our guns have a unique serial number. So for example, if I went on er a job on Monday I could possibly draw gun number three but the following day if we went on a similar operation I might get gun number six. So, there is no specific gun issued to an individual officer as his own personal weapon. Yes I'm sorry I I Oh sorry didn't mean that, what I meant was on this er exercise were, was it written down for instance that erm P C has Smith er Smith and Weston number thirty two? Yes that's correct yes. . In the heat of the operation is there anything to stop you handing it to one of the other officers if that should be necessary? No not at all my Lord. In fact er just prior to the start of the operation er I made a decision to change the shotgun holders over. I have to say now in at this moment in time, I can't remember why I did it, but it was an operational decision that was made en route to the flats that we swopped shotguns with er another officer. Sorry. very clear, you've got two officers with shotguns, do you mean that it's just he gave his shotgun to him and vice versa or you nominated two different shotguns? I I recall that I in effect directed that an officer should carry a shotgun as opposed to the original officer that er was down for that weapon. Yes the shotguns were just ordinary twelve bore double barrel shotguns were they? Er my Lord they're twelve bore, single barrelled pump action shotguns with a slightly shorter length er than is a normal shotgun that you'd purchase in er a firearms dealers. Oh. Can you remember now who the shotguns were originally issued to? I have to say I'm afraid I can't erm I have thought about this yes. Because the the nettle I'm grasping is this ah it is said by the , both of them, that it was you who had what they call a long barrelled gun, it must be a shotgun. Yes. So I was hoping that there'd be a record showing one way or the other but if Okay you'd swopped over the record wouldn't help, is that right? That would be correct yes. So But that is certainly not the case, I did not have a shotgun. Well I appreciate you deny it because er you said in answer to my friend that erm as I am required by rules to put it, er I do put to you that yes, you did have a shotgun, perhaps erm borrowed from one of the officers, yes you did put it to Mr head and you did tell him to er er shut up and wait for C I D. I can assure everybody that that is not correct. That is totally wrong. Now what about Mrs ? While you were in the bedroom where was she? She was er still in bed. On oh sorry, in, lying down or on sitting on the edge? Er she'd sat up er obviously when we moved into the bedroom and from there I'm not exactly sure what she was doing, in as much as she wasn't a threat so therefore perhaps I I didn't pay that much attention to what she was doing. My direction was gazed er drawn to the man. Let me try and jog your memory. She says that when you erm pointed the gun against her husband's head she went towards you, grabbed by another officer. Right . Do you disagree? Well I disagree in as much as I have said that I didn't have a shotgun and ignoring that fact then that I didn't have a shotgun she certainly did not make a lunge at me. You don't seem able to recall what said either at the start or er somewhat later after he'd been handcuffed. What he says he was saying is who the fuck are you, recall that at all? No no I don't no. Well do the best you can er I don't want exact words obviously but what was the burden of what he was the gist, the effects of what he was saying? With respect er I wasn't paying too much attention to er to what was being said in as much as this possibly sounds negative but our concern is not for what people are shouting at us our concern is for whether we've got a threat er in a particular area, in this case the bedroom, and whether we can try and sort that threat out before somebody is injured. Whether it's us or an innocent member of the public. Yes but forgive me you must listen to what's said to you because somebody might be saying to you Lawrence is under the bed. Oh yes, yeah of course. So you listened what roughly was said? I listened but if it's of no evidential value there is no point in listening because I've got so much on my mind at that time erm to to sort out that threat in there that I certainly can't recall what was exactly said or even along the lines of what was said. But I erm, I don't think there's much between you and erm the plaintiff on this. You say when you had handcuffed him he said something to me asking along the lines of what were we doing in his house. That's correct my Lord yes. Well he says when he had been handcuffed I said who they were, who the fuck are you? Which sounds exactly the same isn't that right? Along those lines my Lord yes. Yes. And er again I have to put to you I you've heard the say and I do think you'll disagree. Sure. What I suggest to you is far more officers than the three you gave evidence of perhaps five or even the full six at some stage found their way into that master bedroom. That is not correct in as much as every individual officer was tasked to an individual action and therefore there was no need to come into that bedroom the area er if they'd have heard shouting or whatever in that bedroom they would have known not to come into that area because there was obviously a threat in there. Well if what you say about this information that was in the master bedroom is true, they might have every reason to come into the master bedroom to see if er the, who was sleeping in the . No because our training is such that there isn't the officers just would not come into that bedroom at all because there is a threat in there and I'm dealing with that threat and unless I specifically call for another officer to come and give me a hand there is no need to come in and in fact if anybody had've done they'd have been told to get out because I've got a problem there and that's my problem. So presumably two of the armed officers remained guarding this eleven year in bedroom two and two remained covering the kitchen? No that's not correct because I've also already called up to P C into that master bedroom when I've left or as I was about to handcuff er the man. So we then have three officers in there and I leave leaving the two officers whilst I go and check the rest of the place out. So who was left guarding in the small bedroom one or two? I can't recall when, when you say guarding, I can't recall exactly what the officers were doing but that would have been erm one of P C or P C or both, I don't really know who was erm sorting that side of it out. You see I am, you can see what I'm suggesting to you, there's not much point in an armed officer guarding an eleven year old child it would have been obvious to go to the master bedroom, but you deny it. Right, the reason that er an officer would still stay er with an eleven year old child, a three year old child, or t to get to the realms of fantasy a ninety year old person is that person can still be at risk not necessarily from the police officers, but from anybody else in that building and therefore they've got to remain er in that room until such time as I'm satisfied that everything is clear. Again something that I just have to put. It wasn't you who helped Mr get some trousers on that was done by the C I D when they arrived? I have to say that it was me, I did that. Yes and just finally, no idea at all where this information that was in the master bedroom I'm sorry I I don't know. Yes examination. You've had a number of questions from about whether you knew the man in the bedroom was Mr or . I just want to ask you this. Did it matter to you at that time who it was? No no definitely not. Was your objective to be to secure him? That's right and he, we would have done the same if we'd have found six men in there, er they all would have been secured until such time as I was happy that the the flat was clear. And it's being put to you that not being it's been put to you straight, you're in effect lying about guns, that you had a shotgun. That's been put to you. Now, tell me, tell me, tell the jury again does a team leader is there any policy as to what gun a team leader should carry? No there seems no logic in taking a, a long barrelled weapon er in as much as the team leader perhaps has a few more responsibilities than the other officers have and I would be going forward to handcuff whoever was in that bo er in that bedroom. I cannot do that with a long barrelled weapon. I couldn't do that er with the officer who had the shield. There, there's no way I can hand over a long barrelled weapon to that officer. So straightaway there there is absolutely no reason at all for me to have a long barrelled weapon Well it's the plaintiff's saying is you had one and and you handcuffed him, nevertheless, notwithstanding the fact that you had a long barrelled weapon. I could say a very smart answer to that but erm I've got to carry a shotgun in one hand and handcuffs in the other and still deal with en e eventuality, I just can't do it. And it's been, yet again, been put to you directly that Mrs did indeed lunge at this imaginary weapon. Now I wan I want to ask you about that. In your, in your experience do er members of the public lunge at armed police officers? They don't and to be dramatic they'd be very, very silly to do so because I would take any step to avoid that happening. Whether that was erm a child, whether it was a woman, anybody who tries to take my firearm from me would really have serious problems. Because presumably if anyone was to get your firearms,. They will use it to shoot me, and I, that will not happen ever. So in reality had Mrs tried what has been suggested she may well have been struck. She definitely would have been struck. And she would have no doubt told about that. I'm sure. Perhaps a matter of . And finally, erm again we've been told that you either not remembering or you're lying about the trousers. Is that something you can easily forget, pulling a man's trousers on when he's got handcuffs on and lying on his front? I remember absolutely one hundred percent doing that, and I have to say that if I was faced with a similar situation again of a naked man, I really don't know if I'd bother to put his trousers on. Thank you very much. further re-examination. Well just, just remind us a little bit, now y you have been very definite, you had a hand gun. Yes my Lord yes. And not a shot gun. Definitely. What did erm the others have? Okay my Lord. You you immediately erm followed the officer with the shield . Yes my Lord. What did he have? He had er a revolver that was holstered throughout the entire operation to the best of my knowledge that was the case. And anything else? No my Lord no. And the shield of course. That's correct yes. And what about the others? Er P C would have had a shield and a revolver that once again would have been holstered. P C would have had a revolver that I would expect to have been drawn. Yes. P C had a shot gun and P C had a shot gun. Yes yes thank you. My Lord there's just one point I wonder whether I can clarify . Yes certainly This is a P C and had a shot gun. Each, yes. Each. Did they also have a revolver each? Yes I beg your pardon. Yeah, my fault my Lord, yes they both did but those weapons would have been holstered. Yes that makes up to the total number of guns . Yes thank you. Thank you Sergeant. Thank you my Lord. Yes Mr . Yes my Lord can I say w , your Lordship says that and for the benefit of the jury, that with the subsequent officers objections I'm not going to take them through their training or their . No no certainly not . No. Yes. Lord I call P C . I swear by Almighty God. I swear by Almighty God. That the evidence I shall give. That the evidence I shall give. Shall be the truth. Shall be the truth. The whole truth. The whole truth. And nothing but the truth. And nothing but the truth. Mr could you tell the court your name, rank and station? My name's at the moment I'm a temporary detective constable at police station. Yes, well could I ask you to er tell us a little bit Lord the jury and and in December of nineteen eighty eight what was your rank and job? I was a police officer erm attached or er on a permanent basis with the operations support unit which we were based in er . Is the operational support unit what we call the firearms unit? That's correct. Were you involved in an operation to enter ? Yes I was part of the firearms team that was er briefed to enter that department. And when would you first, when did you first become involved in that operation? Erm when we were telephoned at home and called out to report to Police Station erm I can't remember the exact time that we got to Police Station and it would have been er somewhere in the region of four o'clock in the morning. Did you attend the briefing about the operation? Yes I did. Who conducted that briefing? It was Sergeant . Were you given a weapon? Directly after the briefing all the officers that were ordered to er or authorised to be armed er went to the armoury in Police Station and I was issued with a revolver. And were you given a particular role for this operation? My particular role erm in the operation was to carry one of the ballistic shields erm and I also erm during the briefing was informed that I would be the first person through the front door and consequent consequently to the door of the master bedroom. First of all have you ever handled a revolver of that kind before? Yes on several occasions. Have you ever had been a shield man before? Erm, not that I recollect, only in training. You'd used a shield in training. Yes several times. And in your mind what was the objective of the operation? Erm it was to hopefully apprehend a person called that we believed to be er staying at that flat. And can you perhaps confirm for us that you were wearing,tell us the gear explained by the previous witness. Yeah, the clothes I had on was identical to that of P C . every officer did, all the other officers had the same. Everybody was dressed exactly the same. Again you needn't ask them all that erm if Mr challenges . my Lord. some difficulty breaking the door down, is that your recollection? Yes. And let's move on from that and when the door was broken down what did you do? As soon as the, the door was cleared from the door frame er giving us sufficient room for myself to get through with the the large C-shield with myself and P C ran the few paces down the hall way to the door at the end of the hall way. Now just, let's just pause there and take it in stages. At that stage had you said or shouted anything? No. What did you then do? I then as far as I can recollect, I can't remember whether the door was ajar or totally shut erm I would have put my hand to the handle and once knowing the door was free from its its erm lock I then pushed the door hard with the shield make, knowing that it would then bang, hopefully bang against the back wall. You say hopefully bang against the back wall, why's that? Erm because it's part of our training. Any interior door, even exterior doors we push them back as far as they possibly would go. It gives us more chance to know that there is no object or person behind it. And after you'd opened the door what did you do? I positioned myself in the entrance to the doorway sufficiently enough to be able to see through the er the window we have in the shield erm to see quickly into the room to see er what's in the room and if there are any persons in the room. And what did you see? I saw movements from from er the far side of the room, erm which with, due to the light, erm I could distinguish as being human beings but er not immediately what sex they were but I could see enough to say that they were persons. And did you er do anything more at that stage? Erm I just moved probably a half a pace so P C would get exactly the same view as myself. Yes and then what did he or you then do? Erm at that stage erm P C then shouted armed police, raise your hands. Pause there. H how did he shout those words? As loud as he could. Do you think the the occupants of the bed would have heard that? Most definitely. What, what did you then see happening? We then p positioned ourselves further into the room er P C obviously was still with me behind the shield erm once we'd got ourselves in a in a better position, as far as we were concerned, P C then started talking to the people, erm who were in the bed. Yes and it's probably slightly repetitive but tell us briefly what he managed to do . Well first of all erm we wanted to find the light switch. Yes. Erm so we then moved back towards the doorway erm and then P C requested the persons in the bed to tell him where the light switch was, which a male voice told him the approximate area where the light switch was. Erm, he found the light switch, put the light on and er. Pause there. Up until this point had you drawn your gun from its holster? I didn't draw my weapon at any time whilst I was in the flat. And just help us with this, if you can remember. What sort of weapon did P C have? A revolver. Could it have been a shot gun do you think? No way. You got the light on, what do you then see? I saw a white male nearest to us, in in a double bed which was at the other end of the the the bedroom. Behind him was a black woman and I believe two small children. At that time P C then was speaking to the man telling him to get out of the bed. Did the man get out of bed? Yes he did. And what then occurred? The man with his ar his hands up in the air walked towards us a few paces and then P C ordered him to go down onto his knees slowly and then consequently end up on his chest with his arms outstretched. And er was the man wearing any clothes? No he was naked. What did P C do after the man was lying outstretched on the floor? He then told him that he was going to go to move towards him to er to handcuff him erm this is when I f I f I believe this is the t the moment when P C P C to come into the room erm. Was it apparent to you why he would call for P C to come into the room? Yes erm it was obvious because if he's already told the man he's going to move forward, to handcuff him erm he will not move forward to a person with his gun er in his hand. So I knew that he was calling P C into the room to give him cover. I couldn't give him cover because the see shield is is quite a heavy cumbers cumbersome thing and it has two handles behind it erm and they are obviously the means of holding it up and f for directing it wherever you want so I'm holding this all the time so he can't pass his weapon to me and he can't put his weapon in my holster because my gun was in the holster. What about just putting his weapon on the ground? It's it's never done. So did put his gun in his holster? He put it in his own holster and he put the er thumb strap over t to secure it in the holster. Yes a and then what? He then moved forward to the person on the ground and handcuffed his hands behind his back. And whilst he was doing that operation where was P C ? I can't exactly remember which side of of the person on the who was lying on the ground, P C was but he was in a position where he was not putting himself er he was covering the person lying on the ground but he wasn't covering to the point of fact that P C erm would have to walk in front of his shot gun. Right. After the man was handcuffed did PC do anything else? Erm yes he, I believe it th th that stage was when er he said we'll put y we'll pus we'll find some clothes for you mate erm, I I do recollect P C going I think to the foot of the double bed or near to the base of the double bed where he found a pair of erm jeans and I do remember him checking the pockets erm and then helping or trying like put the jeans on on the man that was lying on the ground still handcuffed. He obviously had to get him up f erm sort of rolled him over er one way then the other to be of but the er the legs of the jeans on . Did you remain in that room with your shield until you were called away by P C ? Yes. In other words,w was that an established position for you in this operation? That was my, that was my objective i for the master bedroom, I had no other objective unless obviously the scenario changed. Yeah. Did you see P C point a gun of any description into the back of Mr head? I saw P C pointing his shot gun in the direction of the man lying on the ground. Yes. Erm I wouldn't say he was pointing at his head it was just in the general direction of him. Yes well it's being suggested by the plaintiff that in fact it was shoved into the back behind his right ear like like I'm doing with my fingers. No at no time did P C get that close to the person lying on the ground. Then how far was he away? He w How far was the end of his gun away? It would be at least two, three, four feet at least my Lord. Whilst you were in that bedroom throughout the operation did you see any other officer point any sort of gun into the back of Mr head? No. And just finally . Are you able to give us an estimate of the time that elapsed between breaking the door in and being called away by your team leader? I would estimate erm three four minutes the whole operation. Yes thank you. If you could just wait there, there'll be some more questions for you. P C as he then was, P M as he now is gave evidence that he only shouted armed police once. and I don't think you gave evidence that you shouted armed police yourself, so is it right that it was only shouted one time just immediately after the second door opened? As far as I reco can recollect, yes. My these they were, my recollection may be wrong, I thought it had been put to the yesterday and was that it was shouted a number of times but, you were there, it was only shouted once. As as far as I can recollect. The only other thing that you heard Sergeant say that some how at the briefing he'd been given information that was likely to be in the master bedroom. Do you recall anything being said at the briefing to that effect and if so who by? The only thing I can recollect from the briefing in relation to the operation and the way that was, it was erm o it was executed. We knew for definite that it was only a two bedroomed flat and that is one of the reasons we went in at the time we did, hoping that everyb e every person in that flat would be asleep. Yes. And we had two shields, we had two separate teams to go immediately to the two bedrooms which, in our er esti est estimations, that will be where any adults were more likely to be in the flat. Oh yes, you and I are entirely at one on that erm. Well that's, that's well that's all I can recollect in relation to why we did it the way we did. I'd go a little bit further and say well it'd be much more likely that husband and wife would be in the master bedroom with in the small bedroom, but as you say er the adults or anybody indeed in the flat is likely to be in the bedrooms at that time, but Sergeant you see went a bit further and said that at the briefing, somehow he got information that was likely to be in the master bedroom so I understand your evidence, you certainly didn't get that impression at the brief. Erm I I don't recollect. My Lord I have no re-examination, if you Lordship has any questions? No thank you. Thank you Mr . I call er P C . Would you raise this in your hand and . I swear by Almighty God. I swear by Almighty God. That the evidence I shall give. That the evidence I shall give. Shall be the truth. Shall be the truth. The whole truth. The whole truth. And nothing but the truth. And nothing but the truth. Mr could you again give your name, rank and station currently. Louis , currently temporary Detective Constable at . Could you just spell your name so that I can get it right? . Yes. . Thank you. And Mr in December of nineteen eighty eight what was your rank and job? My job in er December nineteen ninety eighty eight was er a member of the forces operational support unit erm a firearms officer with that team an also an external instructor with er police. And er when did you start as a firearms officer? In nineteen eighty three sir. Were you involved in the operation to enter ? Yes I was. And did you attend the briefing with Sergeant ? Yes I did yes. Were you given a weapon or weapons to carry? Yes I was sir. And what were those? They were a er revolver and er a shot gun. And is that a Smith and Weston revolver? It would be so yes. And the shot gun, is that a single barrelled twelve bore? Pump action shot gun yes. Pump action. And er Sergeant mentioned that the barrel was slightly shorter than ordinary ones you buy in the shop. That is correct sir. And is that because you'd sawd it off or? Oh no, they're actually bought from the manufacturers like that. I rather thought just wanted to contrast it with the other case and er it may not be obvious to the jury but why, why did you want a shot gun that's a little shorter? Erm the shot gun is preferable in these cases, the fact that er they are used generally as a support weapon erm should we ent encounter any problems in the area that I was covering, this was thought to be the best weapon capable of doing that job. Do you remember when coming into the flat, do you remember who entered it first? Into the er back bedroom. Yes. Er P C . And er wh where were you in the order of entry? My job was er to actually open the door and then once the door was open the team would enter the flat and I together with P C , would er cover the hallways inside the flat. Mr were you actually were you the cover man? Yes. Is it usual for the cover men to have a revolver and a shot gun? Yes it is sir, yes. But again, I think you've already part answered it, why why is that that the er role for cover men, why do they get those weapons? Again that is the weapon that is suitable for that type of job. And you're referring here to the shot gun? Yes sir. During the operation, I'm going to come back to the door in a minute, during the operation which gun were you carrying? Shot gun at all times sir. Did you at any stage draw your revolver? No sir. Now, going back to the incident with the door. Tell us what happened there. Well having er carried this appliance nine flights of stairs to the ninth floor of the flat erm my objective was to gain entry into the flat onsh , sorry once the okay was given erm, again the objective was to gain entry into the flat as quickly and as quietly as possible er, by my mistake the equipment was not placed one hundred percent correctly and began to malfunction. er It started to make er a bit of a whirring noise, and a bit of a loud noise and again the objective was to gain entry quickly and quietly. I made the decision to abort using the apparatus and revert to an alternative er means. Which was? A sledgehammer sir. Did you how many strikes did it take to get entry? At least once, no more than twice. The sophisticated technique had not worked Yeah, exactly back to the old fashioned police technique. Yes sir. The when the other officers attended the flat, where . How long did it take from the time you started what was going to be the quick, silent operation until you finished and got in? If I just can explain first er, Sergeant has already point out my Lord. The piece of equipment is hydraulic, er once the equipment is placed on it takes a total of between twelve and fifteen seconds for it to operate totally. It started to make er a bit of a horrible noise around the ten second mark and from there it was aborted immediately, erm the sledgehammer was handy and it was just a matter of seconds after that. So do we understand from that that in the event it made only a few seconds difference, if at all? Yes sir. When the other officers had entered the flat did you go? I would remained erm close to the doorway covering the internal hallway er effectively looking down towards the kitchen and the living room area. And did you er did you hear of anything, anyone shouting? Yes I did sir, yes. What did you hear? I quite plainly heard erm an officer, I'm not sure who it was, er shout armed police. And you were standing in the hall way? Yes sir. Did you remain in the hall way? Until directed to otherwise, yes sir. And who directed you to go other elsewhere? I heard my name being called, it may well have been Louis erm come forward and I heard it, I understood it to be P C voice. Yes and so where did you go? To the main bedroom sir. And when you went in there, were you directed or instructed to do anything? Er my only instruction from P C was cover me. And state the jury how you covered him. Well er by the time I arrived at the doorway to the room erm a male person was lying on the floor, spreadeagled er and my job would have been to cover him with the shot gun er to enable P C to go forward and handcuff the chap. Would P C come between you and the suspect? No sir. It's rather obvious but why's that? If erm things should start to go wrong and the chap on the floor erm was to make any movement or s sudden movement towards either P C or any other piece of equipment in the room which may cause injury or damage to ourselves or himself, it would be down to me to challenge that man er and allow P C to get back behind er the ballistic shield. W when you were covering P C were you sitting down or standing up? Standing up. And can you tell us if your hands, your fists? I would have been more or less like that sir. Yes and er you haven't changed in height since nineteen eighty eight? No sir. So your gun would have been at least four and a half to five foot off of one surface of the floor? Yes sir. And it's not being too necessarily but at any stage did you get that gun and shove it into the back of Mr head? No definitely not sir. Er ha what did you estimate, four and a half to five feet? I'm. I think you're a little bit much. Am I sorry am I. Well probably. It's about chest height is that what were you're saying? The gun would have been Slightly below my chest . Yes. And effectively three and a half to four foot off the ground. the front of the gun would be. Sorry sir. The front of the gun would be nearer to your waist as you're demonstrating. The barrel of the weapon isn't that long, there's the erm the butt is in me shoulder. Yes. And the barrel would've been more or less, well about that in height sir. Well what what do you think do if I estimate. About three and a half foot from the ground. Yes so I I three and half I think sounds better than your four and half to five but we'll Can I also tell you as a a did you stick that gun into the back, behind the right ear of Mr ? Most definitely not sir. Did you see anyone else do that? No sir. With a shot gun. No sir. And how far do you estimate the gun was from the man's head?distance. I would have been standing erm about two or three foot away from him anyway sir, so that, including the distance height wise, I could have been er from the end of my weapon to his head or any part of his body there would have been a maximum of between four to five feet at least . A a and is that sort of distance and the sort of posture you adopted er consistent with your training? Yes sir it's standard practice. Standard practice. How long do you think you remained guarding Mr on the floor? Altogether sir or. Altogether yes. A matter of a couple of minutes. Did Mr remain naked throughout that time? No he didn't er P C found some trousers, I'm not sure where he got them from er and put them on for him. And finally I'd like your estimate as to the length of time before, between your sledgehammer finally knocking the door down and you being called out of the flat. No more than four minutes sir. Thank you very much, if you just wait there there will be some more questions. Getting into the flat the er hydraulic door opener didn't work so you erm, you knocked the door down with a sledgehammer. That's correct sir. P S told the jury not three quarters of an hour ago that the automatic door opener didn't work, it was taken off re-fitted and the automatic door opener was used to open the door. I imagine you stick to your account and it follows that his account is not right. I I was aware, when P C was saying it was a slight contradiction, all I can suggest sir is that er whilst I was putting the door in P C would have been controlling his troops Troops? er ready to enter the flat, he wouldn't have been paying attention to what I was doing. Sorry I I simply didn't hear the first part of that lot sir. Sorry. What, what, what he said no doubt P C was looking after his troops and he wasn't paying as much attention to what I was doing as I was taking. But how far away from you was he? I don't know sir, I was concentrating on the door. It was only a couple of feet or a yard wasn't it? If you say so sir, the only thing I can suggest is that fact that er that the noise the door opener was making and the fact I opened the door very shortly afterwards, he can only assume the door opener worked. Look forgive me and were the first of the two troops going in through that door. They're gonna go in through that door the second it goes down, they weren't loitering at the end of the passage, they were right by the door weren't they? That's correct sir, P C was behind the shield like he was told to be. And somehow missed the sledgehammer. The only other thing I have to put to you is this that I've already put to er what we allege went on in that bedroom. Are you sure that Sergeant didn't take the shot gun from you and put it against er Mr head? No sir, because that wouldn't allow him to do the job he was there to do. The only other thing is this. You're in the hall you heard one shout of armed police. Yes sir. Any other shouters along . Not as far as I'm aware sir no. Great. Lord I have no re-examination. Yep thank you. Thank you Mr . Mr P C I swear by Almighty God. I swear by Almighty God. That the evidence I shall give. That the evidence I shall give. Shall be the truth. Shall be the truth. The whole truth. The whole truth. And nothing but the truth. And nothing but the truth. Like everyone else can you give your name and current rank and your station. I'm Gary stat erm Constable Pe P C and I'm stationed at . And in December of ninety eighty eight what was your job? I was a member of the operational support unit. And excuse me, for how long had you been a firearms officer? At that time just getting on two years. Were you involved in the entry and search of ? I was. Did you attend the briefing? Yes the briefing was held in the early hours of Monday morning. And were you issued with a weapon? Yes I had a er Smith and Weston revolver. Were you given a particular task or role in this job? Yes erm my task was, together with er P C , to go into bedroom number two. And what was P C role in that? P C was er carrying a ballistic shield as already mentioned. What did you understand the prime objective of the operation Erm to apprehend a er state convict erm Mr . And what did you understand about the level of force to be used? Erm reasonable force to be used in the circumstances that dictated it. Do you carry one of the cards that you probably saw P C refer to? I did at the time erm I no longer am authorised to carry. Are you in a different job sir? Yes that's correct. Do you remember whereabouts in the order you were in getting into the flat? I was the fourth one going in erm there was P C , P C , P C and then myself. And we've heard how P C linked up with his shield man. Can you tell us did you do the likewise or ? Yes it's standard er training standard operation procedure to do that. And where did you let him go? We followed directly behind erm the first two officers, went down the corridor and er then straight into the second bedroom. And which of the two of you then went into that room first? P C as he was carrying the shield and afforded all the protection to both he and I. Did either you or him shout anything? No b erm we didn't encounter er anyone and so there was no need to give the er warning. Was the door open or shut? Erm that I can't recollect. You after P C protection of his shield. What did you then do? I followed in behind him erm the curtains were drawn, the room was in reasonable darkness and er I switched on the light. And what did you see? Erm, immediately as we went in it was er a very poorly furnished room erm I'm going in there's a window on the far side and there was a small single bed erm which to all intents and purposes appeared un-made at the time and there was a duvet covering it Yes and switching the light on and looking around what did you do? Our first erm priority was to establish that there was no one in that room. Yes. As already said the bed appeared un-made Yes. erm and as such a likely hiding place for someone to be was beneath the bed, erm I then lifted the bed with one hand, as I had my revolver drawn in the other hand, erm and then seeing no one was underneath it, I I dropped it again. Yes and just at that stage did you notice anyone else in the bedroom? Erm no I I didn't er it wasn't until we searched on completing that did you notice anyone there, did you hear anyone in the bedroom? No one at all. Did you look anywhere else in the bedroom? Yes we looked in the er wardrobe, there were a built-in wardrobes there. Did you take it he was still a whether there was an armed man or any sort of man in that ? I had to erm until the whole of the h the premises had been searched and secured then I had to assume that there was someone in that room until the contrary was shown. And on searching it what did you think? That the room was empty. On discovering the room was empty, so far as you thought, what did you do? We then proceeded to search and secure the main living room area and the kitchen area. You said we . Again again Lieutenant er Constable . You searched the kitchen and the living room area. Did you find anything? No. What did you then do? Erm my attention was then brought to the fact that er there was a child in bedroom er two. Was that the bedroom you looked in? That was the bedroom I'd looked in. And when you say your attention was drawn, how was it drawn? Er another officer in the, in the in the building told me. Good. Which one it was I'm not sure. You can't remember? No. What did, on hearing that information what did you do? I erm actually went back to the room to see erm what condition or what the child was was doing there. Did you see anything? Er yes I saw a small erm Afro-Caribbean child erm near the bed, whereabouts he was I I I I'm not sure but it was near the bed. And er what condition was the child in? Er she was visibly er upset, she wasn't hysterical, just er crying. Did you say anything to her? No P C er was erm dealing with her at the time. Did did you recognise at that were you in court yesterday? Yes I was. Did you recognise that young child? No I couldn't say that that was the child, erm possibly she's grown a bit, quite considerably. After seeing the child was upset did you do anything else? Erm by this time the mother er in the other room erm had emerged and I helped bring the other children into the er main main room. How did you help to do that? Oh I I carried er one of the children into the, into the main room. And upon putting that child in the room, what did you then do? Erm the premises was by now secured so I left the premises. If you had seen the young girl who was apparently in the bed what would you have done? My actions would have been totally different, erm. What would you have done? What would I have done, I would have asked her to to er get out of the bed, walk towards me and come out into the hall way where she could have been looked after by one of the other officers, and al allow me to get on with my main task in hand. And just finally this, er P C can you give us an estimate of the time between going into that flat and being called away when it was secure. Er three to four minutes max. Thank you very much if you wait there there'll be some more questions. We've got a photograph of Julie taken er very shortly after the incident it's the one that everybody saw yesterday, have a look. Definitely. the one in the bed. No it was identified by Mr and er the bed with Julie si sitting on it, taken the day after the incident. The day after. Now er she's not here to hear me say it, ungallantly she's Julie's overweight now and she was pretty overweight then wasn't she? Erm n I as I say I couldn't see her the bed it was it was a duvet and. You did have a chance to see her when you went back and she was standing by the bed with the light on. That is approximately what, exactly the size and the height and everything else that Julie was at that time, isn't it? Again I j only from the picture I'd say she is, er wasn't that size. I'd no difficulty in lifting a single bed with covers underneath with one hand. From a erm a low position. Yeah I appreciate that. What I'm going to suggest to you however is er a child of that size being covered by a duvet you really couldn't have missed if you bothered to look. Again I I showed all due diligence I could do in the situation. The bed appeared un-made and for all intents and purposes I didn't see her, had I seen her erm the situation would have been very different. I'm very sorry and erm that this happened erm but I can't say any more than that. Had had I seen her it would have been totally different. I appreciate that Constable. did mist er Constable have a shield? He did. Let me make it absolutely clear I'm not suggesting er on behalf of Julie that there was any wickedness in your mind or anything . What I am suggesting is you knew there was an armed man in the flat, you were worried he was under the bed and if only concern was to get that bed up and over to check he wasn't there, you didn't bother to wait to get Julie off it. No erm as I say, I never saw her in there erm I looked under the bed saw nothing was there, I just dropped it with one hand. If was going to be in that room in the vicinity of the bed presumably two places he could be, under the duvet or under the bed. Or in the cupboard. Yes in the vicin I I didn't know the cupboards were near the bed, but yes, in relation to the bed those two places would it have taken a fraction of a second to strip off the duvet to check what was under it. It would er but as I've already said the bed looked made er totally un-slept in it looked as though it had just been made up from new and un-slept in which is why I took that course of action. Had it I seen that there was someone sleeping in the bed my course of action would have been otherwise. So by unslept in you mean very tidy . It was brushed down, it didn't look as though anyone had slept in it or was sleeping in it. Well er, I put the suggestion to you that I just said . What I suggest is you realised you couldn't have failed to realise she was there, but you were in too much of a hurry to get the bed up and check wasn't under there. No that isn't the case. Very good. Just one matter of information sir. He said it would have taken a fraction of a section to pull the duvet off. How long would it take you to fire a gun? Fraction of a second And a few weeks earlier there was a similar incident with a child in a bed er and er all our minds were on that as well. Yes and er it's been suggested the final thing that was suggested that you realised she was there. Erm no I didn't realise she was there. Yes. Thank you very much erm I've no further questions my Lord does your Lordship any? No, thank you very much. Thank you. I give two more witnesses for the defence. Well let's get on with it you've got one of them. I call Mr please. Could you take the book in your hand and repeat after me, I swear by Almighty God. I swear by Almighty God. That the evidence I shall give. That the evidence I shall give. Will be the truth. Will be the truth. The whole truth. The whole truth. And nothing but the truth. And nothing but the truth. Thank you. Mr your current your name and current rank and your station. I'm Brendan er Police Constable in police and I'm currently stationed at police station. And in December of eighty nine what was your job? I was a member of the operational support unit stationed at . And how long had you been a firearms officer? Eighteen months. And it can you confirm you went to, through the sort of training described by Sergeant ? Yes exactly the same. And did you attend a briefing in connection with a search on ? Yes I attended the briefing. And what time of the day was that? Er quarter past five in the morning. And were you issued after that brief briefing with a weapon? I was issued after the immediately after the briefing I was issued with two weapons a revolver and a shot gun. And were you issued with any other equipment? Immediately prior to the entry of the house the plans slightly changed and I was issued with the see shield and my shot gun was given to one of the other officers. I it is actually, perhaps rather obvious you can't carry two guns and a shield. That's right and I've carried the see shield on operations before. You'd done you'd done it before? Yes. So again did you shield man Yes. And you had one gun being a revolver. The revolver which was holstered with the strap over it. Did you at any stage take the revolver out of the holster? No. And who was your partner in your group? P C What do you understand P C about the use of force in these sort of operations? To use such force that is reasonable in the circumstances. Can you remember where you were in the order of those people entering the flat? Third. And where did you go? Having followed P C and P C as he was at that time through the door, I went immediately to the bedroom on the right hand side, the second bedroom. And how close behind you was P C ? Actually touching. He he couldn't remember, can you remember whether the door was open or closed? I think it was closed. And what did you do? Pushed it open as hard as I could. And again is it, for the jury, was it the same reason as P C did it? Exactly the same to make sure there's nobody behind it and if there is they would be quickly located. Did you look into the room? I shuffled into the room got out of the doorway and the light was turned on, I can't remember with whether I turned it on or whether P C turned it on. Throughout this period were you looking round your shield or through the window? Through the window don't look round the shield. And did you see anything through that? No. Did you look at the bed? Yes I was looking Did you see everywhere that I could. Did you see anyone in the bed? No. Did P C then do anything? P C and myself went round to the side of the bed and P C lifted up the bed with one hand carrying the gun in his other hand. Did you hear anything any human sounds at that stage? No. Did you notice anything in the bed at that stage? No. After P C had done that, what did you do? We then er continued the search of the cupboards went immediately from there across the hall way into the lounge, searched the lounge through the lounge into the kitchen searched the kitchen, through the kitchen into the bathroom . searched the bathroom and then made my way to the door, the exit door. Ye a an after you'd done that did you remain at the exit door or did you come back into the ? I was just going to the exit door when I saw the young girl s standing at the second bedroom, crying. And when you saw her what did you think? I di I didn't know what to think. I didn't know where she'd come from, I didn't know whether sh come from that room or whether she'd come from the the main bedroom. Did you say anything to her? Yeah I put the shield up against the wall because I knew then that the whole house had been cleared and er bent down and asked her if she was alright. Aha, did she say anything to you? She said she was alright. Did she look upset? Oh she she was definitely upset. And did you do anything more with her then? No. Where did you go after speaking to the little girl? Left the house, left the flat. Yes er, P C if you could just wait there there may be some more questions. Yes you were coming into a small bedroom with a Yes shield. That reaches down to the floor as I understand it. Not quite my feet just above my feet obviously I've I've got to move and it it's more of a shuffling a quick shuffling movement. Yes erm It is quite heavy. Did you stop, do you stop just inside the door, did you with the shield? I would have moved slightly to the right, I w I was the first objective while you're looking is to get out of the door. Yes and at the same time your colleague er Constable is also sheltering behind the shield. Yes. And what you can see is a bed? Yes. The other side of the room. Presumably with room for somebody to hide underneath it. Yes. Now it must have been mustn't it, a possibility, if been there at all, that he was hiding under that bed? Yes. Why did then, didn't both you and your colleague advance behind the shield to the bed. Why did he rather walk entirely unprotected, apart from the body armour. No no . It's not, it's not just one movement. You go in, get away from the door first, then both of us go round. But you didn't both go to the bed with the shield, that's my point. You pretty much stayed on the , he advanced on the bed. Well I'm I'm sorry but I'm not a lot of use to him if I let him just walk away from the shield. I go with him, he goes with me. Well does it follow then that both of you went over to the bed, that's what I'm getting at. Yes. So both of you were standing But then at some stage he had to move out from behind me to get the bed up. Yes. Now that's the stage that I want to get to. Whereabouts in relation to,w the bed was up against the wall wasn't it? No I didn't think it was. Was it just free standing in the middle of the room or was it against the wall? As far as I can recall it was further away from the wall, there was a space for somebody to walk between the wall and the bed, it's not as shown in that photograph. So there is more room between could you walk all the way round it or ? No it the the head of the bed was up against the far wall the as you look in the room on the right. So you could have been standing, you with your shield, at this point with Constable with you, either on one side of the bed or at the bottom of the bed or on the other side of the bed, where were you in fact standing? Nearer the foot of the bed. Foot of the bed, nearer sorry, nearer the foot of the, at the side but near to the foot or does it ? All I can say is in the region of the foot of the bed. You and Mr . He then reaches out picks up the foot of the bed as he said and lifts it. I can't remember if it was the foot of the bed or the side of the bed. One or the other. Must have been. At that point were both of you behind the shield or had he stepped out from behind ? He would have had to have reached out. So he well I knew he'd have to reach out Yeah. but that's only putting his hand out without being brutal about it, that's not as dangerous as being coming out entirely from behind the shield. Which did he do,? I can't I can't remember. And the bed was tipped. Yes and then replaced on its legs. Constable when he was giving evidence it only takes a second to fire a gun wasn't that the reason that the bed was tipped because it had to be checked quickly that wasn't underneath otherwise Constable may might have got shot. No. What you've got to rea no what you got to realise is the most obvious place for somebody would be on the bed but we couldn't see anybody on the bed so the only other place is under the bed. Well you say the most obvious place would be on the bed, if I may respectfully agree with you, also there actually was a rather fat eleven year old girl on the bed. That's her evidence. I know that now. But the duvet wasn't stripped off. No. Even though that was as you put it, the obvious place for . They say a fraction of a second, we we don't have fractions of seconds to play about with. No . re-examination of this witness. No thank you very much. Now I believe you've got one more witness have you. One more my Lord. But I'm afraid that I must ride, because I'm not at my next appointment so. And the other witness is W was the W P C came in after the armed officers went in. I see yes. Well we'll hear her and then we'll complete the evidence at half past ten in the morning. The er jury are going to be given copies of these collator cards are they? My Lord certainly that's my proposition unless my learned friend has any objection on that. No seeing as though they've been produced I've said I all in favour of the jury seeing anything that's referred to and then there, there's no mystery about it then. They can have a look at the originals if they like as well. Well Suzanne what can I do for you tonight? I've been taking this pain under my armpit and it's kind of under back. You know it's worrying when ? Oh good. I'm gonna enjoy this. Ah . Let's have a wee look in here. It's right here. And there? And there. Right. And right under here. Underneath there. You know? Now tell me if I do That's sore. Sore in there? Aye. If I do that? Oh! Ah . That's You enjoyed that . Yeah. I enjoyed that . Aye. That's it. That's all. on a nerve that goes through there. And up right and underneath. It's, was right in here Mhm. Right underneath. That's you know? Where it was kind of right. That's sore . Aha. Ah. I'm bad man. I'm a bad man. Er are you on any sort of medication at all Suzanne? Nothing? No. Nothing at all. Nothing? No er things from the chemists and cough mixtures or anything ? No. Nothing at all. No. Alright. Cos this is quite strong stuff I'm gonna give you because that's, once that's been there for a week or two it's hard to get it shifted. And you really need to get fairly strong stuff to get it going. Now because it's this strong, never take it on an empty stomach. Right. Right? Always have something in your stomach. Even if it's just a biscuit. Bit of toast. A scone. Anything. Right. And you're north ? North . Aye. Forgotten your number. Forty five. Forty five . er it's virtually and the constipation. Mhm. What is it? Is it just a bottle? It's a bottle. Mm. Yeah. Just give a weeny, just a half a teaspoonful of that. And that will get it eased no bother at all. Is he on solids now or is he still Aye. Yes. But he he's never eat any of those for three days. He's just picky. He's been bothered with constipation for months but the, the, now when he does do it he's screaming you know? It when he's Right. doing it? But as I say he's never done any of it for a couple of days. Right. That that's lubricant that'll loosen it and let it work its way through nice and gently. Cos th without actually forcing it at all. Right. So it will all come through and not too, you know without too much bother. That's fine. Okay? Right Suzanne. Right. Thanks very much. Right. Cheerio now. the annual general meeting of the above-named Society to be held in Rainhill village hall, Thursday the second of December nineteen ninety three at seven thirty P M. Society being the Rainhill Garrick Society. Good and Tracy, can we have apologies first. Yes. Apologies from Lindsey, Alec and Sue,and Richard , from Margaret . Any more er apologies Dave, Jackie, David David Oh, Lindsey! Right, any more erm apologies? Right then I take it the minutes of the last Annual General Meeting haven been circulated already? Yes. That so? Everyone got a copy? Yes. Yes. And that's . Erm so we'll move on to matters arising and Alan has asked me er in the role erm erm of chairman . er to raise two matters or comments rather than matters erm seating er, new cushions have now been purchased and were used with great success at the October production and Alan has asked whether there are any comments we can draw about the success or otherwise of the October production and whether the experiment is worth continuing.? Certainly was much more comfortable at any rate. We actually sold some tickets from the that we had. Seriously realize that they had cushions on the seats. Ah right. before or after? I thought it was a Garrick tradition that if you wasn't in any sore in the second act, you know you weren't really there. everybody anyone did not feel it was a good idea? Yes, send them all back. So is that pretty well er approval? Good. And from Alan the new flats here, Norman helped by Dave and other members has been constructing substantial timber stroke hardboard flats although a bit heavier than the conventional canvas they will last for years and they really do provide superb sets as has been proved with all three plays presented this year. Thanks are due to Norman and his helpers. It says in brackets, ask for comments. Send them back! Would you like to make a gracious acknowledgement of that er you know suitably modest, Norman. Erm No. sufficient flats to do more or less anything er that you care to choose now. I would like to acknowledge Norman's excellence because the Garrick was sort of stuck in the past for a long time box set imitation stuff and Norman has sort of revitalized it made it extremely professional and it really did make a difference to the performances and I'd like to I would like to thank er for the use of his er workshop and his power tools facilitated to acquire the raw materials at a very low cost. happy with that er right good well those were the chairman's er comments, matters arising from the minutes of the last A G M erm any further matters arising from the A G M, you probably don't need to be told any other business comes later, this is purely on the minutes of the last A G M any matters arising? No it would appear not. Right we'll now see chairman's remarks which erm since Alan is not here has asked me to read. So it's Alan's voice even though it's coming out of my mouth. Er, first of all may I give my sincere and abject apology for not being here to chair the Garrick's A G M, this is due to a longstanding appointment made before I realized that the first Thursday in December is traditionally the day for the A G M. It's been another year of achievement for the society the panto Ali Baba and the Forty Thieves was a great success and gave a great start to the year. The February play was A Thriller of the Year, with an all-female cast our original choice of play was A Death Trap we couldn't cast it because of a lack of men auditioning. Now where have I heard that before? The May play, Tea For Two, was performed for five nights the proceeds from the extra performance going to the Whiston Hospital cancer day- care ward a cheque for three hundred pounds being gratefully received by the hospital. Following the performance, officials at the hospital and members of the audience were invited to an informal get-together an event which was so successful it was to repeated at the October production and hopefully will become a feature at every future production. This is seen to be an excellent P R exercise an opportunity for the audience to meet the cast. Wuthering Heights, the October production was also casting difficulties which were only resolved in August unfortunately due to a severe bout of flu I didn't get to see it hear that all reports spoke of yet another quality production. On behalf of the society I should like to thank all those who contributed to the success of these productions the actors and actresses, backstage staff sound and stage management, props front of house tea, coffee makers programme and raffle ticket sellers thanks also to Adrian who has patrolled the car park on occasions. In particular, thanks are due to the directors of the four productions Julie for Ali Baba John for Thriller of the Year Joan for Tea for Two and May for Wuthering Heights. Our very best wishes go to Margaret for her continuing speedy recovery I know that our recently appointed archivist will be very disappointed at not being able to take part in the Steel Magnolias our February production get well quickly, Margaret, and we look forward to seeing you very soon. Two of our members have married during the year Peter and Denise not to each other I hasten to add Mrs . Congratulations also to Liz and Phil on the birth of their daughter. At this stage I should like to thank the committee collectively for the tremendous amount of hard work and dedication put in during the year, and for the support which I have received. I'm sure the other members of the committee will forgive me if I mention Tracy and David and Norman of the last year as secretary, treasurer and stage director respectively. All three offices are extremely arduous and take up much of your free time. There was one resignation from the committee in June, Elise felt she could not longer continue as publicity officer and we asked Rosetta to step into that office. Thank you Rosetta for doing so willingly and for demonstrating such enthusiasm ideas and flair for the job. The appointment of Rosetta we have another husband and wife team on the committee Joyce and Fred . So Alan suggested that er the pre-show committee . The final thank you goes to the village hall management committee and er particularly to Margaret not only for her cooperation in arranging show rehearsal dates etcetera but also her ticket selling. Er there seems to have been a rash of resignations recently, it all started with David Gower, then Graham Taylor and last week we heard that Mary Whitehouse is standing down now it's Joan and thank you Joan for your sterling work as ticket subscription secretary Joan reorganized the system and I'm sure that whoever takes over from Joan will start with an immaculate set of facts and figures. After three enjoyable years as chairman I believe it's time to stand down I shall miss those monthly meetings at thank you Betty for all the tea and coffee making but I shall have many happy memories, I suppose to me the highlights were the fiftieth anniversary celebration and the brilliant production of Stepping Out. I very much hope that Rainhill Garrick Society continues to present quality plays extending and satisfying the talents of our members in every department while at the same time attracting large audiences. The Garrick has a fine reputation long may this continue I wish the society every success in the future. That is Alan's chairman's remarks. Tracy,normal to ask for comments or just to accept the ? ought to be said really, since Alan is not here and is erm is resigning, well perhaps that could come a little later on because I think both Joan and Alan er there should be some record other than this about the work they have put in for the Society er I mean the only idea I have, I don't know how much of a a precedent this is, whether, whether anybody should be offered life membership of the the society or is that only for do you have to reach a certain age Fine I'll be guided by that. personally I, I, I felt, I mean so many people have been uncommitted and the Garrick Mhm I think it would wouldn't be Well, I think at the very least the Society ought to pass a vote of thanks to both of them for the sterling work they have done and I would be more than happy to er thank you er well, is it the members' wish to, to thank Joan Alan for the sterling work they have put in as members and officers. Show of hands? Perhaps you would be . Would it be nice to , would it be nice to send a letter from the Society putting this in writing? I think so. That he can pin up on the on the wall To be used in emergencies! Right well that's the chairman's remarks so Tracy, the sorry, you're still writing for your letter Well, I think I can't stretch the secretary's report much longer than one and a half Right, first of all I'd like to apologize for the fact that Alan's report and my report especially the first half, are very similar. I'm sorry about that. But anyway nineteen ninety three has been another successful year for the Garrick, which started, so far as the productions are concerned with the pantomime, Ali Baba and the Forty Thieves directed by Jill her debut as a director, hopefully not her last. It was also great to see some new faces in the pantomime this year and let's hope that will be a continuing trend. As you are all probably aware, Death Trap, originally planned for February, had to be scrapped despite valiant efforts by the casting committee and John the directors get around the problem of the men or rather the lack of them. Nevertheless, Thriller of the Year, an all-female cast, was very successful with house numbers totalling four hundred and thirty. The main play, Tea for Two, directed expertly as usual by Joan , attracted audiences totalling four hundred and sixty and was thoroughly enjoyed by all. The extra performance on the Tuesday in aid of the new cancer day-care ward at Whiston Hospital raised three hundred pounds and special thanks go to Betty who came up with the original idea and everyone involved who organized the marvellous spread for the soiree afterwards. Wuthering Heights, our October play, gave May in her role as director, a challenge which she conquered admirably well done, May. There were a few problems with the casting of the men and staffing for the kitchen, but these were overcome and an excellent play resulted a sentiment that I think the four hundred and thirty seven strong audience would agree with. The lighting was also a ma of major importance and Richard did an excellent job as stage manager thank you, Richard, even though. October also saw the arrival of the much discussed cushions what will we talk about now that? I'm sure we'll think of something! These were given their first test run and enthused about by the audiences for Wuthering Heights a very worthwhile investment. Talking of worthwhile investments, the new flats constructed by Norman and David have been put to good use this year and indeed Nor indeed Norman's sets get better and better. The success of the wine evening on the Friday of the October play, was a pleasant surprise to us all with approximately forty people staying after the performance for a glass of wine, a look round the set and backstage. As well as involving our audiences more, it may also help to attract new members which can only be of benefit to the Society let's hope it will be a regular event. Unfortunately, there have been no social events this year hopefully we can make up for this in nineteen ninety four. I have enjoyed my twelve months as secretary and would like to thank the other committee members for their help and support, especially Alan. All that remains is to wish you all a merry Christmas and happy new year. Well, would anyone like to move and second that we accept Tracy's report and there's a young mover here. Yes and I'm bound to say, too while doing so that when Pam went erm as was the case when Kay went, I thought oh blimey how are we gonna replace her? And yet another has emerged from the ranks! So Right then, all comments on the second , I know we've got any other business coming up, but I mean Ken's offered a sort of er word of praise for Tracy, anyone bursting to say something about the secretary's report . the er secretary's re treasurer's balance sheet has been er has been issued I don't broken down er would the am I the only one ? No, no, everyone has Has everyone got a copy of them here? Has everyone got a copy of No. the treasurer's report? Right, erm I'll just go to the thing. We started off with five thousand six hundred and ninety one pounds last year this year we've ended up with four thousand seven hundred and eighty eight pounds. Erm basically we've spent more than we've erm taken in but that was a deliberate policy agreed on by the committee we've already mentioned Norman's flats erm that has been a most worthwhile expenditure and we've got to look at that as a long-term investment because we've got flats which are going to last for years and our expenditure which was getting on for fifteen hundred pounds will not have to be repeated. Other things we have purchased which have reduced the balance, again the cushions, but it, this is a long-term investment and we should recoup that with extra bums on cushions rather than on seats. Erm the three plays have erm produced two surpluses and one deficit, the panto a thundering surplus. We made two hundred and forty five pounds on Thriller of the Year one hundred and nineteen pounds on Tea for Two but that is after we've made the three hundred pounds donation to Whiston Hospital we made a thousand and eighteen pounds on the panto Wuthering Heights we lost four hundred and nine pounds, but that was basically that we do costume plays and have to hire the erm fixtures and set pieces from Wrightsons or wherever we're always going to be in this position and I think it's the tradition of the Garrick that we continue to do them, and I think we have to accept that we may have losses in future on those particular erm things. I think it's true to say as well, isn't it, Mr Treasurer, that there's some money ticket money still to come. Oh yes. I've still got a few odds and ends that are late late monies which will go in Yeah. which will actually reduce that figure That's right. but we obviously have to cut off at a certain time to er get the accounts and audited in time. So there will be a slight improvement on that position but erm I do feel that we have to continue to do them the costume plays we can't just say oh we don't make a profit on it, we can't do it, I think that would be a very shortsighted erm philosophy. They are basically the nuts and bolts of the er the report, if anyone has any questions questions I'd rather not hear it, Has anyone anything they would like to ask the treasurer, or comment, Kenneth? Where did the er donation of sixty seven pounds seventy five come? They were from people who were at Tea for Two who made donations specifically towards the cancer erm I see. that, that is included on the other side in the three hundred pounds that went out. They made specific donations on the night in the knowledge that it all the proceeds were going to the cancer day ward and that helped to boost the figure. Any further questions for David? What, what happens to the car park then? We didn't have one on the last play. Yeah, but er normally Alan er organizes this with our car park warden, but unfortunately as was stated it was struck with the flu. Yes. I, I agree that it is something that we must make sure that we arrange in future because people do get nervous about the cars out there unattended and er I think it would be a a very good point. So is everyone erm happy with the treasurer's report? If so could we have a proposer and a seconder that it been accepted. Thank you. Thank you very much . Well now we move on to the election of officers and as you've heard two er officers are, have tendered their resignation, Alan and Joan. Erm if, if it means well, basically I'd better say how many erm proposals are there for . Would you like er Tracy now to There have been five proposals for the er chairman chairman's position and nil proposals for the . So we Well the quickest way of doing is that those officers who are remaining in office erm could be voted back into office and then we can have a vote on on the others those that are unopposed as it were. Yeah. Tracy will read the, the officers who will, who are, are standing again and are unopposed. Er treasurer, David house manager, May , stage director, Norman play secretary, Lynne , publicity officer, Rosetta and secretary, Tracy . Well since there is a return unopposed, it might be nice if we can have a unanimous endorsement of that. Do we approve that those officers remain in office? Show of hands, please. Purely a formality. I think that erm er my thanks obviously through, through erm Alan and the meeting for all the hard work that those officers have put it and for their willingness to stand again. Erm, amateur societies just can't exist without loyal officers and those officers have shown their loyalty by s standing again and we know the special circumstances appertaining to the , which brings us to the nitty- gritty now erm you said we have, Tracy, five erm perhaps you'd better read those names out for us and then I think the best thing to do is to have a closed vote, where we give you all a piece of paper on which you state your nomination folded up so nobody else can see we'll put them in a bag and then we'll appoint a couple of to count the vote so that we do not the chairman . I've had two, sorry, I've had two nominations for chairman. What I meant was when I said five proposals Okay a, a rethink two members' Sorry. proposals for chairman. Makes it slightly easier anyway. I was counting the forms. Er the nominations for chairman are and Graham . Right. So I think erm those two gentlemen will have to leave the room, I think while is taken . Will you come back? Right and now Tracy will give you all a piece of paper er, keep it secret write your name, fold it and . You know who the two candidates are, don't you? David and I will act as and er . Yes, I've got it's a precedent of our Erm it's a pretty close run thing but by a narrow majority, your new chairman is Graham. Perhaps you could give him a round of applause. As the new chairman you'd like to come and take over from me now . Sure? Er we'd like to thank Bert, too, for standing. pretty close run thing I can assure you. historical interest Yeah. I think it's possibly the thirteenth consecutive year I've been on the committee and for the first time I've managed to be elected. patience do you feel wanted Well congratulations, Graham, and thank you Bert also for standing. Now we committee erm with the resignation of Joan as ticket and subscription secretary, so all I can do is ask for any nominations from the floor, please or any volunteer who would like to follow Joan. You heard Alan say that erm Joan has laid the guidelines down and made the job easier. The trouble is that er erm Yes Is that a yes or a no someone nominate Anne not to be undone Bert, thank you very much indeed, you're now ticket and subscription Thank you. er secretary. That's excellent. Now in the election of auditors, I gather it's, it's down to a formality, David? Well, Bert has audited erm these, I, I don't know whether he's er prohibited from doing so by his being ticket secretary not knowing the er I think it would be a bit unusual. Yes but not against the constitution I don't think it's against the constitution that er it would be a bit unusual to find him involved in handling money to be involved in he went to Majorca or Tenerife or in a bid to see each other it's a possibility. no problem it's just it's I think it's a bit er just a conflict of interests. Well that's right. Any nomina any nomination for then? The only one I could suggest is Tim, but he's not here unfortunately. Could he be approached? He'll probably be in the pub later on. Er I'll approach him if you want. Anyone second Bert's nomination then? He's the next treasurer isn't he? Yeah. Right, so Tim is nominated by Bert,has to be approached, I think be approached. Well that's got all the short bits done now, out of ten any other business. And as Tracy said, the cushions is no longer an issue, but erm One thing we did discuss at committee but I think it ought to be put to the A G M we discussed the increase in the cost of er, admission erm we held our prices down for at least a couple of years we had a heavy outlay on cushions I do feel that erm we ought to put in to the meeting what we discussed at committee that be raised from two fifty and one twenty five to three pounds and two pounds for the concessions including students and erm the youngsters. I feel it ought to go before the A G M rather than just be agreed . Ken. Why Mr Treasurer do you propose this increase? Well they're getting comfy seats and we're star well as you can see from the last play, Wuthering Heights that erm we actually lost money on that I know it will happen but I feel that we ought to erm go along and get into a healthier position again. I would suggest that if you put the tickets up to actually give them a raffle ticket on, on entrance you know, so that they feel they're getting sort of and Yes and members of the cast donate the prizes, you know, just one prize each or something, a box chocolates which I'm sure won't hurt. I, I know I agree with the committee but on the year we have actually made money, is that right? Yes. No we were actually twelve hundred pounds worse off this year The actual show has actually made money. Yes a lot. So if we take forget the cushions and the scenery which are you know Non-returning Yeah. Yeah. Is it er justified? Do you really think it's justified? It's very to keep the prices down as low as possible, I think Yeah and you And if we are making money on the shows is it justified? Perhaps you'll open that to in fact I feel the price we charge for concessions and youngsters is a giveaway we might as well give them away for nothing. I, I really feel that no four twenty five is is absolutely silly I think I think Yeah I'm thinking of either three pounds a ticket you're getting close to the price of a special chauffeur. Erm I feel for the quality of the show that they're seeing, two pound fifty is is nothing. I, I really feel two pound fifty is low for the quality of, of play that they're seeing I mean other amateur groups not that we're comparing ourselves, but they certainly charge more than us and quite honestly the end product on some of them is not up to our end product. Pam, you wanted to make a comment. Well, you're you're raising er the price of tickets by fifty pence, aren't you? And the concessions by seventy five, why don't you I'll raise them both by seventy five . No it, it's because they are nice round amounts, one twenty five is has been such a derisory amount it, it's it really has. One twenty five irrespective of who's going in, it, it really is a a giveaway amount. Yeah I think that the What about the range of concessions of pensioners erm you know, free tea and coffee? So that they're not having to find money for that as well as their ticket they get it sort of all in one price. tea and coffee You'd have to know in advance. Mm right. Linda. I think erm I think is quite fair maybe if concessions could be raised to one fifty or two pounds but overall I think that people who can afford it spend such a lot of money on the raffle and we therefore give raffle tickets to those who can afford it could jealousy and on the raffle generally about a hundred pounds is made and if there, if there was more charge for tickets, people might not give so much for the raffles and also if you give but if you charge them a nominal sum and then shove other things at them on their options they might be more willing to give to optional choices like a raffle. I think the problem is that if you're not careful this will leave the counterproductive erm, somebody said well I don't mind paying two fifty or three quid so what you'd gain on the seats you'd lose on the side. Er I mean that, that's not an attempt to dissuade or anyone but it, it you know people are very traditional and if the Garrick has always charged reasonably and suddenly there seems to be rate of inflation and this sort of thing, you know, as Linda said, they might think okay, I'll pay three quid but I'm damned if I'm buying any raffle tickets. So really it is a case of swings and roundabouts. Any more comments obviously I think we're gonna have to take er Oh, well obviously before anything else. Any anyone else like to make a comment Oh yes, I'd like to erm er concur on what Linda just said about options, I don't think we should give erm raffle tickets away as has been suggested. I think some people do give generously when buying raffle tickets and particularly they like the fact that the tickets are so cheap, so we should continue to give them that option. Erm for what it's worth, I'll give you my suggestions about what we should do as far as ticket prices are concerned er, having taken in a view of the most important factor of the treasurer's comments but also bearing in mind that we did have high recurring expenses this year, which won't apply in future and we're not here to make money. I suggest that the erm ticket price should be two pounds fifty as it is now and that the concessionary price should be increased to two pounds. That's what I suggest. Yeah that's what I said. Yes, I agree with that. I'm not asking for a vote on it I'm simply giving you my opinion. Are you qualified for two for, for the concessionary Concessions are pensioners er and students and that's students with a student card and children. And children. And children as well yes. Actually one twenty five to two pounds is quite a steep increase. For pensioners. Yes. Well concessions Yes. Erm oh, obviously we're going to have to vote on specifics eventually. one fifty. One fifty I think would be more reasonable. I think to jump from one twenty five to, to two pounds is . If we do that we're only adding twenty five pence more revenue The last play I worked out that w we had one four hundred and thirty seven of those thirty seven would be er freebies to the homes in, in to bring it down to about four hundred and on the ticket money we took in, I would say about a hundred and twenty of those were erm er concessions. How many over the year, roughly? I would have to guess at the others because I didn't do erm sums on the other ones it was only on the last play but if it's on the same sort of erm proportions, then I would say somewhere around thirty percent of the audience are concessions. I just have to multiply that, the, the figure by twenty five or divide by four pounds, it's no small sum. Even though twenty five er two fifty to one fifty I think will be er Yes I think so. about five hundred over the year or six hundred or talking about a maximum of twenty pounds taken over right, thank you. It could be included in the of course ticket would increase the potential . The trouble is that there's there's the, a a vast difference in the concessions Yes. to the full price ticket and I think Oh, it's half price. Yeah. Two fifty, would you do you think two fifty and one fifty is the closest it can go? I mean, when is a concession not a concession? If it's too close together it's like it's not really a concession. I think that's fair enough, one fifty to Well shall we have a vote on those two figures then? You see if that goes through there's no point in trying another one. As a matter of interest on the raffle side, David, is it basically the two pound fifty person that buys the majority of the raffle tickets? Yes. I would say Yes. so, the So they're the ones then that like Linda said are paying two pound fifty then they are So they're spending three pounds whereas erm to concessions perhaps will buy in couples That's right. and two pounds for concessions children and students. That is the proposal so the suggested a maximum first could we have a show of hands on ticket prices of two pounds fifty and one pound fifty. Can we have a show of hands on that? May well Yes. the erm proposal falls by so er Tracy and, and David have made a, a, a note of this and thank you for backup check. Why don't you want ? Because from one he said he would do it. I think we should up up it from eight pounds it's worth it isn't it? We arrived, didn't we, at the eight pounds mark because Yes. that was what we were sort of we gathered in and we broke even We broke even on Thriller of the Year and lost twenty eight pounds on the panto. I think it ought to be a regular feature, a regular feature for everywhere regardless, because it was felt that er during the the May play which proved to be wrong er you know, I think it should be for everywhere It should. I, I've had So sorry people coming to me, audiences, members of the audience coming to me and saying, oh what about the car park Yeah yes. you know on the couple of occasions not arranged anything. Well would, would you like to propose that the matter be referred to the committee er to make a suitable appointment or appointments? Yes, I'll propose Make it official rather than just Get some publicity out of it as well. And, and a seconder? I'll second that Fine. So we have a proposer and a seconder that the committee take on board the provision of a car park steward, for want of another word. Thanks for the suggestion. May I suggest that er we get some money together specially to pay this. Say we have a social event I'll do that raise say a hundred pound or seventy five and then that can go towards payment er the payment for someone to patrol the car park for the plays. Or thirty two pounds or whatever. Even if we raise twenty pounds a performance for it. Well or should that be referred erm er well, do we accept that suggestion that Linda's ? You are lumbered with a social event to raise money for a car park steward Right. Any oth other business is still open. Two and half hours before the pubs close. to say something. Yeah. It we're not quite getting this clear it's an excellent idea. Erm but one of the reasons that, that we got the audience was, was so that they, they obviously the audience were prepared to pay for the fact that There's nothing to stop us still asking nice little earner as they say. Yes,i i it, it could be a nice little earner as er you suggested. A nice social event. This really is committee work but I, it does occur to me that mention it that erm, if in our advertising we point out that we have a car park attendant and if that car park attendant were to let one slip through his fingers me were, we may well then be liable to be sued by the person who Oh yes. I mean this is the kind of comment we will get from somebody who has spent the past five years on the village hall management committee. I think that I think we've agreed that that is to be taken on board by the Committee by, by the committee. We'll put it in Any other business Can I express thanks to the president for taking this meeting it's been very interesting. What, that I have or the meeting has? Thank you. Can I second that. Well Erm all that remains is to say thank you all for taking the trouble to turn up and show an interest in the administration of the society. The remainder of the evening is at your disposal. Right, hello, yeah, we're back. Erm Miss is trying to get rid of us. Erm we're sunbathing even though there ain't no sun to sunbathe at. Er And erm can you hear me? Wait. Wait Lis, I ain't got the things on. Hold on. Hold on then. Tell Billy that Yeah? tell Billy that Hello now ca , can you hear me? Yeah. Alright. Erm, look And we're gonna go soon cos like we dunno what else to say cos we've crushed you and everything. We've done,we've used now . But don't forget to make another tape alright? Well you won't be able to use Richard's, but like sort of I dunno Yeah. Richard's taking us back to school Wednesday. If you got a tape at home or so , right you can record yourself at home. Send it to that address alright? That ain't my address. That's Lisa's address . No, it ain't. It's address. Anyway, erm It ain't my address, my address, but if anyone else writes me letters then then please don't. But But do it first class jammy stingy cunts! but er, do they really want to write to you? I don't think so . Oh yeah ! And he'll jump at the chance to write to me. We , can we say goodbye now. Anyway, right, we're gonna Oh no, there's Richard . Ah! Not again you cunts! Right, hold on. Right now, we're gonna go now anyway, so it wasn't worth turning over really. Gonna get some sun. We're gonna for seven hours Lisa. Oh no we ain't gonna Ah! She got, she's got an Arsenal top on. The best you know, Arsenal . I'm going to watch Lisa. the F A Cup, you know. Woo ooh! Ooh you lied! You lied! You lied! I can sit next to you. I'm sure. Anyway, right we're gonna go now aren't we? Are we going to go? Yeah. Do you know Right. Lisa, she's got erm you know, erm Arnold Schwarzenegger Aargh! Aargh! cut his head and put Russell's head. Imagine seeing him , no she ain't cut out, she ain't put Russell's head on there. Russell can you give Lisa a picture of ya? And Billy, give it, Lisa a picture. All of yous give her a picture. Aargh! Right erm don't believe what she just said cos she's just telling a load of lies right? And, wait, wait, wait! You do want a picture though. Wait , but listen, but listen, she wants a pic , a picture of Billy and Russell. Oh and er little Scott. She thinks he's sweet. Alright. Bye! We gotta go now. Bye. Yeah, bye right. We're gonna go. Bye! Bye Russell! Bye Scott! Bye cutey Scott. Bye blow job Billy. Blow job Billy. Blow job Billy . Right, come on, let's go then. Right here we go. Blow job Billy ! Blow job Billy ! See ya later. Bye! Oh Carolina . Don't forget to send a tape back. And a tape Thumper. Right. I know, I know, I know . Right. Then it Thumper thump . Don't forget . Oh watch how she . Do you know something? Carolina, inform a . And, what's the other one. Aargh! What's the oth , what's the other one? Which one? On the rivers of I'm sorry. Ba Oh no . Now listen sorry about that sort of concert at the end. Ah that's alright. But , we're definitely going now alright? So bye! Bye ! But where is Elisha? Right, one, two What? Elisha. Oh sorry about that, I was just Where's Elisha? Jason, Jason's sister. Alright, one, two, three, go Bye ! Bye ! stop ha having all those and over you know who. I ca , oh my tape! I've only just noticed. It's recording on Well I ca fifteen. What? It's alright. Forget it. Mm mm. Ow! Ben you gonna get, when you getting your new trainers anyway? Dunno. Cos it it takes ages. Takes ages? For what? Yeah well well for For what? Because I, I've gotta get the sprays. Oh yeah. Well, well you buy them yourself? Yo ain't your Dad can't yo da Dad fork out for something like that, something like fifty quid. Mm. It depends . Trainers. Oh trainers! Yeah, I'm gonna have some soon. Can't you, what's this? I couldn't afford it. I was calling the white bag. I was going, woo ooh! Come on man. Wouldn't it be good, wouldn't it be good. Super orgasms! Ha ah. Ben stop telling him what you, what you dream of with Oh fuck off! Where does it say to your he wa , he wants to erm Wherever you say that means to your Mum. Yeah alright then. He wants to do That's to Mum's, you talking about me? No I ain't . I'm talking about Oh really? That's funny. He wa , he he wants to do her . No I do not. What the train in the big hole? Yeah . He wants to ride in a Mercedes. No he's a Skoda. Beetle he's a Mini. Mini Skoda. And his Skoda's . He wants his little tunnel. When? That was about Ben really. third base . Third base he don't know nothing man! What about the home run? Well that took ages! You, you don't even know what it is do ya? You don't, you don't even know what we're talking about do ya? Home run and all that ? Yeah. Who told ya? Me. And me . No. I don't think it was. Chunky. Chunky. But how did she know? How did she know? Chunky told us. They call me Chunky ! Billy! Oi! Have you ever been to fourth base? Like have you been hu , have you ever had a home run. Who with? Who with? Who with? Te , tell me the gossip! I know Chunky. He's chunky! I was Oh er whatsername? chunky! I kno know who. May I tell you? Oh right, Sam right. It's Sam you fool ! Natalie! Natalie. Natalie Natalie. Alright. Imagine going a home run with someone you know. Kel, what's the matter? I want Mummy ! She'll be here in a minute. Why does she want Mummy? Oh yeah, she knows why. Oh yeah. No, as anyone, do you reckon anyone would ever go a home run? I want mummy Nah! Well Yeah. Only wa , only wa , yeah? Er, here? At our age? No No. one would. No one would. Especially not him . Alright, he wo , he wouldn't wa know what to do. I wouldn't think so. He'll go what's this ? Where's that go? Ah. He goes He goes what's, what's this meant to do? And he goes I I I he's got his cock . Rich, Rich what's this? Okay, he's got a magnifying glass. A microscope. Vis , only visible, not visible to the naked eye. Look at this. Eyes undressed. What's the matter Kel? I wonder what that looks like. I want my Mummy ! Mummy be home in about twenty minutes. Mummy ! Mum'll be back. A a a home run, imagine doing that, a home run you know. That means you know, it means getting married Yeah,putting in. and all that. Home run. Ah me , no one would get married at the age of fourteen They are a load of prats! Have you seen Rocky? Rocky ? What did he do the home run? Yeah , I've seen Rocky. There's Rocky over there. Rocky! Rocky ! They call him boss is, of the home run. We do, do, what's the, what's third base? That was er Nah. It was er That was sleeping weren't it? Yeah. That's , er, that was sleeping with someone. Second base was ju , you know, just er thingy. Yeah. Her thingy . Third base was just like sta , asking them out and like kissing them and what have you. First, second, third what's fourth? Fa , fourth man, that was home run. That was the home run. Oh yeah! Home run. Home run was like, married, baby and all that. Carl would you ever would you ever do a home run? No. Er don't, don't you play rounders? A mummy's little boy. Do you like doing home , do you ge , do you get a home run? That's a home Yes! run. Are you the home run? Who with? Who for? Who for? I want my Mummy ! Shh shh, are you get a Shush. home run? Is it recording? Yeah. I want my Mummy ! Yeah. What? Don't cry. Who's that? And get ,right near down my throat. Shush! Say Say No I'm not ! Alright. I'll go No cos you said had a home run with D'ya know, d'ya know , d'ya know the home run and all that? Home run, Home run, like married and baby and all that, that's a home run? Yeah . He goes to, he goes with Right, can take it to me? Why? Just take it to me. Well where do you wanna take it? We can hear it while we're taping it. Wind it as you, cos I wanna, I want it. I want it. I wanna nick this thing. Right. Oh , you can't tape it in there. Right now Lisa What is it recording? Off you go Lisa. She thinks Russell's a sod. Don't tell Russ , I mean, oh Russell's gonna li , are you gonna let listen, Russell listen? Most probably, yeah. Let him listen. Cos enough bad things Yeah, but, yeah but things about Lisa , Lisa, Lisa thinks everyone's a sort. No but Lisa says enough bad things about me and about Billy so I want Billy to hear, so hear er ah. That way enough No. Billy. Don't, don't say nuffink to Lisa though right that you heard it. Okay? Are you Okay? listening? I said okay! Yes! Okay! O and K. Okay? Right ready. We were pointing at you Right. Lisa thinks Russell's a sort. Emma don't know what he looks like. And we, we told her that he was nice and all that. Oh. That I, I ain't saying Emma would go out with anyone wouldn't she? Yeah she does. Mm mm. She asked E , she asked Billy out you know? Had a Did she? shock didn't ya? Yeah. Yeah. She was gonna, she's going to James party she's gonna go . Go out with him. Go with him. Go with him? Yeah. Not all the way. You remember when She's going, you know go remember when someone kissed Emma. When? It was ages ago. No. Did they? Yeah! Oh I heard, I heard yeah and then kissed her on the cheek or something. Yeah. Yeah. Leigh and me. Why? He's gorgeous. He is gorgeous! Who's he? , Leigh he works in the chip shop. He is gorgeous! Gave everyone a kiss. Chip shop? Cos we bo , cos we bought him a birthday present right. Where? Where? From the house. Wha what geezer? Chip shop down there, right. And how old is he? He's erm Mm? dunno how old he is. About fifteen. Right, and erm and he goes to us, can I give you a kiss? And we goes, later, later cos Lisa we , and Emma weren't here like and he was going, give me a kiss. I thought, no, I don't think so. Not while Emma's not here. You know Emma Mm. she's , she was walking with Lisa and I weren't there and her Mum sh jus , like she muc , she mucks about a lot and she told Leigh that if he don't serve her he's gonna die, she's gonna punch him right! Cos she's quite big, you know. And he goes, God! I goes, I'm gonna tell Sue tonight. Okay I won't. And he goes, no don't she's squashing me! Someone had told her. Anyway, she pulls, she's dragged , I tell you she dragged her, she dragged, she dragged Who are they? Who are they? Emma right up here, she grabbed Emma in there and Hey. then, she dragged Did you walk? she dragged Emma in there she dragged Emma in there and made her kiss him, made him kiss her. And when I came in there it is he . Yeah, cos they went out. Who, who is it? Right. Billy Russell, did not hang about with them. doesn't hang about with right So wa , why? Cos they were on about Emma. Don't you want that? Did they go about her? I don't know if they went about with her. Amy don't hang about with us, okay? Stop asking us please. Fuck off . Fuck off Debbie. Who's that? Debbie. Who's that girl? Is she recording? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. thinks a sort Mhm. She ain't seen him. Well what, what's he like? Did you go out with Knuckles? Should that ? No! Not What? Billy. But if Billy said yeah would you really are you free? Shh! Yeah! Badly! She wants to go out with him badly I tell you that. Real? Badly. Knuckles. Who wants a game of knuckles? ! I goes, erm, Emma do ? She goes erm well erm, yeah. They were all saying, they're all saying, right, everyone in school knows about it now. Don't know how it got round cos it's all over Emma's books and Lisa's right and they're going, who's Billy then? My mate Hayley wants a . She was going he ain't really nice. She was going, Emma goes well he ain't ugly, he's quite nice actually. In other words, she's trying to say he's nice looking. Sort of like came out like that, alright Billy, she thinks you're gorgeous. I think she's gorgeous. Mm. You know I'm still recording. So? Yeah I know. Good. Good. I bet you're thinking . I can't now. Oi right erm I'm gonna start sanding my bike tomorrow. Oh. Oh oh. And then I get Be easy for Chunky. if you say things. No I say oh that's right. Don't tell her. Well Lisa is fat actually. Yeah she's she's not medium. I haven't seen her with all her clothes off you know. She's got, probably got about ten tops on. You know Amy? Yeah. Do you reckon that er is, her sister? Her brother I mean? Amy? Mm. Oh! Now I've written on the pencil case. I wrote Emma, I goes can I write Emma for Billy for you? She goes, yeah alright then. She does . And then she goes, it don't come off now, I wrote Emma for Billy and Russell, and Richard. Well she never realized till today . Ooh sorry, what she do? Frances , she goes ooh Frances what's this? She goes, it won't come off now. Going oh God! Well er, she er, she only She was trying to rub it off! Jenny wants my, mine and Russell's name on her, and mine, just mine. She won't, she won't want Russell's name up, no. I don't know . She does want Billy's name up that for sure cos it's all over Yeah I know that. her book. She wants Russell's name off. And mine. Oh I, you should see her books. And mine. Her books, and she's, she's a right boffin right her books are really clean, she don't never write on them, and she moans at me writing them, you know I always write Frances was here or something, like that, like you do. Mm. Her books are splattered in Billy! In Tippex, even worse. She gets in trouble by the teachers. She writes all over the table and all. Mr goes to her in English then, don't you ever stop writing Billy on your books? Teacher got her showed up . Just shows she fa , she fancies him. Mr went, oh Emma! It was really embarrassing, Emma's Who's E sitting down who's Emma been out with? hold up, Emma was sitting down and Mr , Emma! Do you ever stop writing Billy all over your books? She goes, what sir? He, he goes, do you ever stop writing Billy all over your book? And she started laughing. She was really embarrassed. Everyone started going, Emma! And then . Emma's been out with erm about ten people. Leigh at the caravans, Leigh and They're all Leighs . Yeah she likes Leigh , Leigh , Leigh erm who was that one? All that Leigh . .There's Tony. Where? That ain't Tony. Yeah right, erm what shall I say? No. Billy told me about what school does Billy go? Eastleigh. Oh! He told me he'd been to . No. But surely he goes, he said mine will go in there. Why would he tell you? Why would My tea , my science teacher my science teacher, she said to me,, he used say well they bunk off out of their lessons, they hit the teachers, she goes, cos she worked in there, They do. They go, they go and, they er break into shops. Mm. She said, cos she said Cos they learn how to in the shops. When th they feel, they just rush in one shop and nick it. She don't know none of their names though. I thought I'd mentioned the names but she said no. Look, she'll probably go back oh yeah, you know th , this er Emma what goes arou , goes out with all the Leighs, she, she'll be Billy, Bill Leigh. Oh yeah. Bill Leigh. Leigh. Yeah, that's right that. She likes boys called Leigh, named Leigh, Leigh ,, Leigh Bill Leigh , B J. B J. She, she's writing a note B J? you know Ash, B J What? B J. Don't mean nothing. You know B J, it stands for blow job right. You fu ,. Oh B . Jane . Oh no, well, Billy's name's B J. B J. Well Billy's name's Billy and you know we was writing it on the floor just after we found that out his second name, and, and they said B J! And someone shouted out, I shout out Billy Blow job. do you recognize anything from your initials? He goes, what? I had to say it about three times for the boy to understand. And he goes, and I goes, blow job! And then when he came down he goes that weren't that wa , that weren't me who thought that, it was Emma's dirty mind. Yeah. And then we started shouting out,blow job Billy . Someone's in Darren's house. I want to watch Ah alright? we was watching him go and change before. Not change, only from the waste upwards. Then we told him. He goes to me,Francais I like your shoes . I goes, I like your long bushy hair. His hair's down to here now innit? Mm mm. I hate him! Such a greaseball. Do you think, do you think he's got a good home? We co , we, we was phoning erm Billy, couldn't get through right, and erm I just bought myself . erm Daryll Right. and I was gonna say Daryll, let us borrow your phone? Daryll's got a portable phone? Yeah. So I said Daryll let us borrow your phone? One of my mates went and put all my money in the phone you know to phone Billy. Who's that? She was moaning and then she moaned. Do you know how much we put in at night to phone Billy? How much? Ma , we all put about three pound in. Not each, just three pound that's all. How much is it before we said? Who was it? And we was going what's her name now? Get off that phone! Lisa's on the phone. Who is she phoning? I think it was before we spent ten pound on the phone. Dunno who he's speaking to, Lisa or me. Nine pound something like that. I don't know. We was phoning any old one. Oh Billy told me to say Billy told me to say something and he rang us. He told me to say something and I said no What today? but , I forgot. Nah. This is this, not today, it was yesterday. When go , when did he say he was coming down? He said to tomorrow he's coming down. What for? I ee, I ain't here right when he comes down. . I'm down the Roman Cos she's indoors. Don't worry about it. Now he knows I ain't here don't he? Now you know I'm not here. Bash in my windows ! Cos when he come round I ain't looking at him. Cos Lisa will really show me up. Wait, are you still recording? I wish we found some, you know. Lisa when , and you can tell er Lisa that so I can start laughing at her. Now if she starts laughing at Billy and Russell, you know she don't wanna No, ever, everything we say she laughs at. Who Emma? Oh yeah. Oh! Lisa. Lisa. If we say something to her watch her laugh. Oh Lisa says she don't wanna come She's shy. Rich,thanks for asking her . She's shy. I have asked no one! What? Oh well . Her Mum give, her Mum gave her thirty pounds one Saturday, for nuffink right. She don't spend no money. Her Mum gives her enough money. Cos her Mum won a lot of money. You know these scratch and win cards, well her Mum got a lot of money anyway. She gives How much , how much she got? She got, she only won ten thousand, but like I mean, not ten thousand,yeah ten thousand, yeah ten thousand but like she's got a lot of money anyway like. How much? Erm she got Roughly. Don't know. Like she's got enough. You don't show it but like she don't go out and buy new posh clothes and everything. How much d'ya reckon she's got? Dunno. Dunno how much she's got. Her Mum's got a lot of money cos ev you know Lisa sh , her Mum goes, her Mum's gone can you hold this tin of paint and they're in Sport , you know the trainer shop? Mm. And she's dropped a tin of paint all over her trainers. Mm. The next day she goes in the . . And she gets, and she's always getting new clothes and new shoes. Every time she asks she gets it. Ben. We wanna go over there! Emma wants to say hello to Billy. Mm. What in? Don't you think that's silly right that she wants Emma's body. He'll have to pay. Come on Billy! Billy! Come on Billy! That's it. Oh God! Urgh, urgh, urgh, urgh! I wanna get an Arsenal t-shirt. I wanna get a Millwall. I don't , I don't wanna get the Arsenal kit cos I ain't wearing shorts, I tell ya. And the long socks do nothing for my legs. I'll get Never mind. the top. Yeah, Lisa erm I'm getting the top. Lisa, her Mum gives her about every Saturday she gives her a tenner, but if she's going out she gets a lot of money right. Yeah. How much? I don't I don't know. Alright, she gets a lot of money. If she don't mind you, she don't buy a lot of stuff. She's really good like . Erm, like if you get the money, spend it, I always spend my money on loads of shit and I end up with nothing at the end of the day. But her she don't spend her money because she don't get nuffink at the end of the day. She's always got money leftover. I've got shitty . What do you get? Well nuffink at the end of my day. I just normally buy like water bombs, things like that. No I have to buy Now I could buy sprays and No! Listen. You told me Stevie was coming round once before so I got all these water bombs, water bombs ready for them and they came round they weren't there. Wasted our water bombs. Loads of them. We was gonna throw them at you. Mhm. You Billy and Russell water fight. Are you weren't throw over there, in the corner there . No , that's What? over there Ben. Yeah, over there. We went over there. Yeah. Yeah well that's, that's where they poured the fucking water over them. Lisa , Lisa, Lisa, buys all the balloons, let them blow the balloons up, she goes alright who buys the balloons? And every time she never pays for them no one. You know Jan across the road right. Yeah. You know the big balloon Mm. it's like party balloons, she's got like water balloons I mean,with water and, they was, I had them in this box mucking about, I was trying take something out, and then like we dropped a water balloon in their bathroom and erm, we started having water fight, and that they filled them up and go into the balloons and then you go and tie it up Mm. they was pouring over us. Emma was soaked. It was socked everywhere! I mean everywhere! It was on the mat. It lo like covered one of us. In the corner . Then they, then they weren't looking. You! She should have got in trouble by her Mum. Lisa found water bombs in the , in that box they was getting soaked. In fact, they were allowed to let them out last night. Oh. Go and tell her Mum. You si , you you remember, remember that Tania? Yeah, we remember when you shouted here she comes. Yeah, only cos it hurt And you hit with it. Now you stopped me, you fucking started it. You, you both su some of it, you soaked ours on the roof. No I di , after we've come up here Oh go on then. Shh shh shh shh. No! I was sitting on the roof trying to get my gun. That fucking water. Oh oh oh! Wait No! wait, wait, you know you told us to use the rest of them and we didn't even get a I think she asked me Oh she would. the address. She's a mong! Yeah , but she kept saying what's saying what's the address right? I'm going I don't know. I can't remember what Richard said. And then, and then she goes, she goes can't you just ask him? I goes no, you knock at his door. Cos it, cos it sounds like I wanna know it. I dunno. Emma's still got . She was the one, she was the one who wanted Billy's phone number as well. Mm. She made me go and ask your Mum for it. And she goes, you know what's, I goes Val have got Billy's phone number? She goes, Billy? And then she went and wrote it down, she goes, here are. The next day she's in my house in the front of my Mum and everyone, she goes, did you phone Billy up? My Mum when d'ya phone Billy up for? It's not, that like horribly, but mucking about, trying to say you know Er ever since Billy come round it's always been what? about Billy innit? Mm? Every time Billy come around it's always been about Billy? Right,and and then alright and then she goes, your Mum came out in front of everyone, she goes why, no, no, yeah, she goes did you phone Billy yesterday then? My Mum goes what have you been phoning Billy for? I goes Emma wants to go out with him. I said it was Emma wanted the number didn't she? Mm. So she could even . She ends up talking about him though in the park. Since Billy's come around that's all we've been talking about. Mm. Yeah cos I just wanna grass Emma and she always grasses me back. Let's grass Emma up. What's she been saying about Billy Rich? I don't know. Come on. You know when we was you know when we was playing what was she saying? She, she weren't there. No she was listening though. She said she liked him didn't she? Oh come on, she said something sh she always gets me. Don't tell her, I'm telling you. Yeah you said something about me and Emma! Ha! No I never. Mm. It was either you or Amy. Amy. Amy. Don't mention her name please. Why? Don't you like her? Yeah. Oh yeah! But she don't hang about me. Why? She just don't. They keep calling her a liar cos she hangs about with me. Remember ages ago when they knocked for you and Billy No. Ooh. Ah! Ben! We just dropped the subject of Billy and started it up! Yeah, you You prat! you and Billy knocked for me and Oh yeah, we was going and Richard was watching us. Why didn't yous come out? Oh cos we was doing something about yous and Billy. Oh yeah! Yeah, yeah, yeah! We was. What? What was it then? No we're not. We were doing something me and Billy and Amy. Oh te tell me. I wouldn't tell everyone you Billy was gonna do something but it didn't work out. It worked out, we'd done it all and that but then What was it? What was it meant to be about? You went to the marathon and that's why we couldn't do it to ya. What was it? What was it meant to do? It was just a joke. We was gonna put something up a pole and er Oh what are you going on about? Can't be bo couldn't be bothered? Put something up the what? Oh yeah. Thanks for asking us to come to the marathon. That is really, really nice of ya like. Why, why do I ask you to come to the marathon? Because, this is what Emma did right. She said when, when Mrs said why did you ask Emma she goes, cos we asked you to go the cinema all the time. Right? That's what she said? Yes. And then, hang on Woo ooh! say, say, saying that we don't hang about in the , he's gone say that. But we do , we don't always exactly go then wherever you go do we? Right, and then she said Billy's got the cheek cos that's boring around here and it's boring Well it is. cos he don't do nuffink right, and when he does do Ah but she wouldn't exactly go down, go down right going down there. with someone wearing like,you know She goes, she goes this is what she did, right? She goes, Billy's got the cheek to say it's boring round here cos he's Ben. and when he don't come out oh and when he does go out he don't ask us to go out, he'll say nah. All my, all And then I said that they don't hang about with us enough. She goes yeah, so? But we still ask them, it wouldn't he , it wouldn't he , saying like it wouldn't help them to ask Yeah but when we do come round whe , while, when yous asked us, she doesn't do nuffink. She goes woo ooh ooh, I've done it. Ooh ooh, ooh ooh. And she said that yous are really out of order not going she said because she wanted to sit in that close with Mm. Yeah. Da, dun na da . Billy! I ain't saying nuffink any more. Yeah. Well she's Billy, even if she wants to, sat down and Yeah, but now we've found out, I mean like, like It'll hard , it'll hardly everyone sits down it'll hardly be me or Russell will it? Or Ben. Billy'd have to be, yeah, this is what I'm saying, and then we like we'd move up so Emma sit next to him, but she wouldn't knowing her. What, she'd sit with sitting on her own? She said if I could get us chucked outside the cinema, chucked out the cinema cos Billy said he'd get us chucked out the cinema for, she goes and we can all pretend we don't them . He goes let them I ge go by theirselves. I'd, I'd go back in. I wouldn't . Oh yeah. Of your . This is boring! Good job Emma's gone on holiday. She's, then she can't hear all this. What Emma's gone on holiday? Yeah. I, I've Oh! Oi right erm don't tell her I told you this but she's doing the karate! She's beating me up. Women can't do I bet she is. karate you prat! Some women. Why not? No, what she said about, about what she says there's me, I haven't been talking about her, don't tell her this. Who can't do karate? I don't think Paul's done karate. He has. Oh has he? Oh well well great! Well this is boring, you know. I know. Er er, no, no, no, no! Here she is humping the bed! I wanted , I wanted, I wanted Emma to get grassed up. Say something to her when she comes back, say erm Richard was you supposed to send erm did Laura come up to you and sa sa say that you, did she ask you out something like that? No. Di da , did I ask Ursula. Yeah, Emma that is. Yeah. Yeah. Well she's I had a right go at over that. I had a right argument over that. Who did , them two? No, me and Laura did. Why? No, because she said something, she said that I said something didn't she? She said No. she said Français said. No, she said er she said, she goes look Rich do you like ? No, we got that off Danny . Why? Oh God! Because and then she goes erm all quiet and say something so me and Amy and Emma jump in. All one thing, and then er All one Lis , Emma and Amy jumped out and left me in by myself. And they, they, we was on the floor and they used to make shit out of her I'm telling ya. Well, well done. Am , but then, Lisa's Mum goes . Ah. I wouldn't like to fight her. No she's alright actually. Laura why do , why does, why did Laura come up and ask me oh I said well, I said er yes alright. Who said something? No one. That's why, cos she said I'm just gonna know, I was gonna say to Richard that I was gonna ask Richard if if Emma, if he wants to go out with Emma? Did ya? Did ya? That's what she said. No, she said that she came up and asked you if you wanna go out with Emma No. or something like that. she said did you ask And she said Emma out? she said, I said Français said do, Français said do you wanna go out with Emma she said. No, she co come and told me did you ask Emma out? And we're all going Wimpy tomorrow night again. Are you? Yes. Lucky you. Emma's a right pain in the Wimpy. She don't buy nuffink, she, all she has is a hamburger and drink. She spilt all the milk shake down her. All on the Oh God ! floor, everywhere! Did she ? And, what's, Amy, Amy's doing burps last Saturday, you know you do them ? Yes. Not little ones. Long. Amy's mad when she does them. Amy does extra long, extra long! And th , and the man was laughing at her cos she was putting everyone off their dinner. We had all the back seat taken up. Hoo ooh! She does that. bark . We were laughing so much . Who? Richard , he does that anyway. Ask if you take ? Yeah she was there. Woo ooh ooh! Woo! Three thirty five. Got enough clothes for a model, you look rich. All nice clothes, like. When she comes out in nice clothes I say get them for modelling? She goes yeah. She knows her Mum goes out and buys No, what catalogue's she in? No she's from erm She don't do it no more does she? Yeah. Mm. She does that one as well. She gave me the modelling Erm Avon, she might be doing two mightn't she? I don't know. Me, me, me , me, me, me. You going now? Yeah. See you later then. Yeah. You getting that That. which the red one? Yeah. Where you going, to work? Yeah. Bye-bye then. both of our eyes here possibility that that could be er switched down? Cos it's really very, oh that's much better. I think at that stage we can we can proceed. Erm, this is er I, I suspect this is er a session that er will generate a interest. We are restricted somewhat by time, because I want to get everybody back in the main auditorium to listen to what I know is going to be a fantastic lecture by Professor Don , er from Baltimore, which I would certainly recommend that everybody go and see. Er the moderators this morning are myself, John from Dublin, and Stuart , who is from Newcastle, New South Wales, who is President of the Urological Society of Australasia. And er this is one of the er new things that's happening really er with BAUS this year is that er people are coming from far and wide and chairing session so I'd like to welcome Stuart very much indeed. Th there are a number of papers, and we're going to start off this morning er with, when people, just I've started actually speaking here so that er to allow people time to come into the room and I know that here we are . So we're having in the first instance There's two seats over there. . He actually is reading a paper from Atlanta, but if he's speaking with a slight Scottish accent then er that's only because he's actually from Scotland. Er he's going to read his paper now. Neil. just over to the other side. Thank you very much John. Er Mr Chairman, members of , it's a great pleasure to be here today. Before I erm . Before I am going to talk about er urodynamic evaluation of patients with symptoms of outflow obstruction, I think it's a good time to be talking about this when, particularly in North America, we're being encouraged to move towards a questionnaire or score in order to select patients for treatment, whether that treatment be surgical treatment or, or other treatment. This is a study of more than two hundred patients that have been entered into a prospective study er since my move to Emery in Atlanta in nineteen eighty nine. I'll just give these folks coming in the door a moment to Don't give them too much time. just encourage them to hang around. This is a very straightforward study, and we don't need to dwell on the, on the er the design. We had two hundred and twelve men, all of these men had er clinical B P H or one or two carcinoma. Er all of these men had moderate or severe symptoms, and all of these patients were candidates for surgery. And instead of taking them to the operating room for a T U R, instead we took them to the urodynamics lab. In the urodynamics lab, we conducted a comprehensive study that included a uroflow a post-void residual,cystometry and a pressure flow study, and also er simultaneous voiding fluoroscopy. I'd like to report these results. The uroflow er revealed a volume of less than a hundred and fifty mil in the great majority of patients and we've, we would dismiss that er data. Er also patients who had a volume of more than a hundred and fifty mils, er the maximum flow was less than fifteen in, in er only fifty patients. The post-void study revealed a, a residual volume of more than a hundred mils in about a third of patients,. Cystometry was normal in half and there was instability in the other half. Erm these patients were pretty much equally split between patients who had obstruction and patients who did not have obstruction on a pressure flow study. This is an example of a patient who has a stable cystometogram and in the course of the voiding study voids with a high pressure, the stylus is going up and down the whole time another kind of . But er here the patient who has a maximum flow of ten, and a voiding pressure of seventeen, and he voids in the course of the study. Here we have a patient who is unstable during the course of filling, and is also obstructed with a low flow, and a high voiding pressure and finally a patient who is unstable who has a perfectly normal voiding pressure of er thirty five, and a maximum flow of twenty. Unfortunately, we don't have any standardization of characteristics or parameters for obstruction. And this was a hot topic for debate at the I C S in, in er Nova Scotia, and we made absolutely no progress at all er with this issue during that meeting. Er what I have chosen to do is to do what we were doing in the nineteen eighties, which is to take the simplest measure of the maximum flow and the detrusor pressure at that volume and when we do that, you can see that these patients, instead of being a single group of patients with a single kind of bladder pressure and flow, these patients are all over the map. If we're going to draw some lines perhaps it would be reasonable to say well patients with a flow of greater than fifteen certainly are unlikely to be obstructed, and patients whose detrusor pressure is less than fifty would seem to fail to satisfy our criteria for obstruction, because obstruction in a urodynamic sense implies a high pressure and a low flow. Now if we put these two parameters on here, we end up with only a small proportion of patients who actually have high pressure and low flow. So here we've got only thirty seven percent,just o about a third of patients who have high pressure and low flow, although all of these patients would have gone to the operating room for a T U R. If we look at the information that we have on fluoroscopy, erm this was quite helpful er a hundred and thirty five patients seemed to have a fairly open prostatic fissure and the fissure was narrow in seventy seven erm most of the patients with obstructions had a narrow fissure. So if we concentrate our remarks on the findings in those patients who satisfy our criteria, this is just thirty seven percent of two hundred and twelve patients. We find that the sensitivity of the flow rate was less than we had hoped. The sensitivity of the residual urine er was also er very unhelpful. Erm the unstable bladder was present more often amongst our obstructed group although erm this was not something that would distinguish the obstructed patients from the non-obstructed. So to our surprise of this cohort of patients who would have had a T U R, only about a third had obstruction. The flow rate and the post-void residual did not seem in this study to distinguish the group of patients who had obstruction. Instability was common in the those who were unobstructed as well as those were obstructed, and we felt that really clinical evaluation alone may not be enough to suggest who needs surgery and who doesn't. We felt that this study was weak. Er partly because it's completely impractical to suggest that all patients should have an expensive er video flow study. Partly because this is one void pressure flow study, and so we have evolved from here to take on the sort of technology that was pioneered in this country by David , using a simple ambulatory erm study, and we've added to this erm er a hard wire connection from a flowmeter. So that as well as measuring pressures, we can have flow and volume data on the same patients and the technique that we now use is to bring these patients in er to challenge them with a large fluid load, er they get an antibiotic, which is actually part of the way that we fund this study, they have a They have a, a uroflow here, before the catheter is placed, and then using the diuresis period, we take several measurements of pressure and flow. This has the potential to be a very economic, very easy way to help us to distinguish those pressures Those patients who have high pressures and low flow. Thank you. Thank you very much Neil, particularly for being patient with the er the late arrivals erm early on. Thank you very much indeed. Are there any questions that people would, would like to ask, er I think it's a very important paper, er important also because as most of you know it was all these new technologies and new drug treatments and things like that that are coming in, an awful lot of rather easy criteria are being used to, to look at the, the various things, and I think that's why there's a lot of confusion about what is and is not a good method of treatment. ?Is that mike on? Chris, if you want to come round to this Neil, what do you do with the patients who don't satisfy your criteria? Er what we tell these patients is that they don't have evidence of obstruction, or if they do have obstruction, then that obstruction does not threaten their kidney and that it would be appropriate to wait and watch their symptoms. And as we wait and watch the findings are very much those of Paul in Bristol, that a great deal of these patients get better, and only very few fall into problems. None of these patients are dismissed without any further follow up. How many of them accepted ? Erm I don't know how many vote with their feet in going elsewhere, but few of them challenge us at home. Erm wanting a different treatment. Yes? Andrew , Newcastle. Actually, I'm afraid I'm sorry that mike seems to be dead, you're going to have to come round and stand in front of all these hundred and fifty, three hundred people here doctor. Andrew from Newcastle, I work with er Professor . Er I'd like to draw your attention to my poster upstairs actually cos we, we have now performed major study of er obstruction in the before and after prostatectomy. We have found that are very much more sensitive, for example in detecting instability, erm we found differences pressures of were much higher in ambulatory studies. We haven't looked the correlation to . Well I think this is partly one of the reasons that as urologists we need to be thinking about changing gear. It's been a very big step to use pressure flow studies at all, and now that we're used to using pressure flow studies, we're going to have to go back to the drawing board and perhaps learn to use a different kind of technology that's ambulatory, that allows us to take multiple measurements of the same patient, rather than making a treatment decision based on a single observation. , London. Neil, you're, I'm, I'm not quite clear on exactly your definition of obstruction. Your figure of thirty seven percent is much lower than most other series but most other series have different definitions er of obstruction. What, just tell me exactly what you, how you define obstruction. Well Roger I, I made great pains in the presentation to make clear that this is not a standard, because we don't have a standard. I feel that if a patient has a flow greater than fifteen that that flow is adequate, normal, probably. Of course there's always of course you're going to find one or two patients, but rar a relatively small group, who have flows that are greater than fifteen who have obstruction. I have some patients like that. Erm, clearly you need to have a detrusor pressure in order to be behind that flow, and if this pressure is less than fifty then I think it's unlikely that there's much in the way of obstruction. I'm looking to select patients who have a high pressure and a low flow and for the sake of this study I've drawn my lines at fifty centimetres of water for detrusor pressure during voiding and, and er fifteen mils per second. So If we had, if we'd been a bit more rigorous with our criteria, our group would have got smaller. So y what you're saying is that sixty three percent of patients in America presenting with B P H have a flow rate above fifteen a and voiding pressure below fifty, right? That's correct. That's amazing. That's, that's not our experience here. You must be looking at different patients to Would you like to answer that Neil? I cannot comment No. Well, I have, I have, I'm sure Roger will believe me they're Okay Neil, we'd better proceed. Thank you very much indeed for a very provocative programme. I think er a number of the things that are, are meant to be provocative this morning, for example how we get a clinical er evaluation er of patients selected for a T U R P or earlier treatment B P H , but also now The legal and political context within which they operate has changed dramatically with more legilay legislation. Since nineteen seventy four over two hundred separate regulations have been introduced and increased European influence has seen ov over thirty new sets of regulations and amendments currently in the pipeline. As these regulations come into force, shop stewards, safety reps and members place extra demands on the specialist providers of the union's health and safety service. But to our disgust, and as Nigel mentioned, also that we have seen a demise of factory inspectors, and this is borne out by the fact that figures at the present time show that an average workplace can be expected to be visited once in eleven years. There can be no doubt in anybody's eyes that the failure of the H S E to enforce the law along with unscrupulous employers, exploiting low inspection rates, mean that the role played by G M B safety reps and those who provide our backup service, are more important than ever before. With increased accident rates and the ever increasing development of small workplaces, with little health and safety protection where, where our members are mainly women, part-time workers, in addition to the growth of sub-contracting and competitive tendering, and the increasing number of home workers, mean that we have to re-evaluate our priorities, and as such our health and safety service must be equipped to provide all the necessary support and information to underpin our activities in these vital areas of recruitment and growing sections of employment. The introduction and distribution of safety representative kits is an important factor in the role of G M B members at local level, and I'm proud to say that in my own region, ninety three percent of the reps receive their kits. And it should be used not only to enhance the role of health and safety standards as well as business performance. Throughout the review which is clear that the un where the union's information and the role of the regional health and safety officers secured a high profile, then we were successful in getting across the message. We, in the Midlands, support the role that the Health and Safety Review document puts forward, and in concluding, President, I would just like to pay tribute to my regional committee and the work that they did, in getting the review off the ground in the first place. Colleagues, to all of you I would say, support the Health and Safety Review, come back next year, let's do a good job throughout the next year. Thank you Thanks very much Ken Tom President, er Congress, Tom , Liverpool, North Wales and Irish region Congress, it is well known in the trade union movements that the G M B is the leader on health, safety and environmental issues. In the scale of unnecessary occupational accidents and disease, we must ensure our service support effective activity at the workplace. At work, every week in the U K, there are around eleven people killed, six hundred seriously injured, and there are around ten thousand reported injuries where people are off work more than three days. Figures from the nineteen ninety Labour Force Survey estimates that a true figure of one point six million accidents occur every year. These accidents result in over thirteen million working days lost through work-related injuries. The survey also indicated that around two million people per year suffer from illnesses that are caused or made worse by their work. At the beginning of this year, new regulations covering the management of health and safety, all work equipment, manual handling, workplace standards, display screen equipment and personal protective equipment were enacted in the U K. These resulted from European Health and Safety Directives. In November last year, at a conference held by the G M B we highlighted the priorities needed to deal with these regulations. The scale of death, injury and disease in the U K and the implima implementation of new regulations should demand priority action from the government, yet their actions look set to attack health and safety standards. They've cut the Health and Safety Secretary's budget for this year, they're looking to privatize many of the H S E's functions, they've set up a review to identify health and safety legislation that is a so-called burden on employers. They will eliminate the grant for safety representatives' training by nineteen ninety five, how will any of this improve health and safety at the workplace? Congress, it won't. The government don't insist employers comply with the law, they encourage the law to be ignored. Such is the U K's contribution to European Year of Health and Safety. The government are failing in their duty to protect people, the employers are failing in their duty to protect people. The G M B must continue to fight for the best health and safety standards at the workplace. This special report provides a base from which we can develop our health, safety and environmental service into the next century. It will be needed when we consider the challenges to workplace standards that exist. On behalf of the Liverpool, North Wales and Irish region, I move in support of this special report. Thanks very much Tom. Congress, thank you very much indeed for that debate. It seems to me that there're just one or two points in which Nigel er needs to respond, so I'll ask him to do so briefly. Nigel. Thank you Mr President, just two points. Erm, there was a specific point raise re raised from Lancashire region, regarding briefing sessions for branch secretaries. That is our intention, er we are organizing briefing sessions for officers, and taking an approach which we want to get the information distributed to the workplace and that is clearly an area that we wanna develop. Erm, in the point that was raised from the London region, talking about resources in dealing with er regional health and safety officers and their time, part of the er document itself, is looking at consultation, so that the resource implications and the necessary action that we have to take in identifying priorities, deals with those things and those things are now opened up to discussion, er by accepting the report, and we'll be looking at that over this next year. Thank you. Thank thanks very much Nigel. Colleagues I put the special report to Congress, all those in favour? Against? That's carried. Thank you very much. I now call motion two five eight, Cancer screening to be moved by the Liverpool region. Mentioned earlier, colleagues that erm, there are a number of motions, so if the movers and supporting speakers could come down to the rostrum, it would be er helpful. President, Congress, Theresa , Liverpool, North Wales and Ireland moving motion two five eight on cancer screening. It is a national disgrace, the U K is the only country in Europe to deny this facility to its citizens. Employers are prepared to spend millions of pounds on new technology, new machines, at the same time, not one penny on our members' health. Do these employers not realize these machines need us to operate them. They need our hands, our feet and most of all our minds, colleagues, what we are asking for is not a lot. The right to time off with pay for cancer screening. Colleagues, what we are speaking about here is death. The death of a member, the death of a person, the death of a mother. Colleagues, I move. Do you want some steps Maureen? Thanks Why did you say that? I'm sorry I'm gonna pay for that, and I'm sorry about that Maureen. President, comrades President, Congress, Maureen , Liverpool, North Wales and Irish region seconding resolution two five eight. Conference, hundreds of young women could be suffering from br breast cancer with little chance of it been detected. Startling evidence that the National Health Service cancer screening programme doesn't go far enough was revealed last November, with the release of shock figures from Action Cancer in Belfast. They found that two thirds of women who contracted breast cancer were outside the recognized screening age bracket of fifty to sixty four. In the past three years some nine hundred and thirty seven women have died from the disease, a hundred and forty six of them were under fifty. More than five hundred of the deaths were in the sixty four plus group. Under the present system, women aged between fifty and sixty four are routinely invited to be screened by the Health Boards. Action Cancer screened seven thousand three hundred and forty women at its Belfast clinic from January ninety one until March ninety two. Of these fifty five percent, fifty five percent were under the fifty were under fifty, another forty one percent fell inside the N H S brackets, with the remaining four percent sixty five years and over. The incidence of breast cancer detected is at odds with the government's claim that its programme has sufficient safeguards. Of the under fifties, it was found fifteen had breast cancer, compared to sixty in the fifty to sixty four group. This means that only a third who were found to have breast cancer would have been detected by breast screening. Conference, these statistics have been proved in one small area of the United Kingdom, the results if the same exercise was carried out across the length and breadth of the country would be frightening. But maybe if we did this exercise, countrywide, and enough people exer exerted pressure, then possibly we could force this government to do yet another famous U-turn, and start to inject some real money into the N H S. Just think what we could achieve with enough investment. Doctors could buy the much needed equipment, they wouldn't have to work such long hours, there would be no need to close down wards, aye or even hospitals. There would be no need for patients to be turned away through lack of beds. Congress, support the resolution, I second. Thank you Maureen. Colleagues, on composite motion thirty two, Toxic Shock Syndrome, I notice a number of colleagues went to the, the meeting that was held in the Conference Hall at lunchtime, and certainly for a few minutes, I had the opportunity to listen to some of the discussions that took place. Erm, I'm bound to say to Congress, that under normal circumstances, we don't take additional supporting speakers on resolutions, er and the reasons for that is very obvious, it's because of lack of time. However, I've got to say to Congress, that I consider this particular resolution and this particular matter very serious indeed, and I do know in fact, that there are certainly delegates, who're actually suffering today er from this particular er disease. So what I would like to suggest, on this, on this one occasion only, and without any, setting precedents for the future either at this congress or future congresses, that we make an exception, and that in this particular deb debate we take additional speakers. I hope that Congress would support that. Is that agreed? Thanks very much indeed. Kevin President, Kevin , Lancashire region, in the light of your comments, I must admit I don't expect anything less or more of G M B than what it always does, and that's put its actions where its words are. Today, the eighth of June, should have been, in Manchester, in Urmston in fact, for the family, there should have been a birthday party. A young girl, Alice, would have celebrated her seventeenth birthday today. Sadly, in that household today, there'll be no party. Let me tell you Alice's story. Alice , she could be your daughter, your girlfriend, your wife. Alice, in November nineteen ninety one, twenty fourth, the Sunday, she had a headache, wasn't feeling too great, during the evening she was able to watch television, but she was a bit sick during the night. Although very pale on the Monday, like many of your sons and daughters now, she decided it was more important to go to school to sit her mock G C S Es. So she went off to school. She was sent home after a short while because she was suffering what it looked like, a flu symptoms. She came home, went to bed. That evening she still wasn't feeling too great, but nevertheless was able to talk about the television she'd missed, the programmes she'd missed on telly. She took another aspirin, went to bed. At seven P M, she started to talk about the evening things and went to sleep. At ten P M she didn't seem too great either, her temperature had gone up a little bit, but nevertheless, she slept on. The next morning when her mother came to talk to her to see how she was, Alice's breathing was very shallow, and she had a very high temperature. The emergency doctor was called, the doctor phoned for an ambulance, and for Alice to be taken to hospital, but when the ambulance staff tested for her blood pressure, it was so low they hardly got a reading. She arrived at the hospital at nine A M, and her condition was diagnosed as toxic shock syndrome or meningitis. She was transferred to intensive care, her breathing gave great concern and therefore she was put on a br ventilator. Sadly the strain was far too much for poor Alice. Two heart attacks later, she died at one P M. It took less than forty eight hours for Alice to die. That's the reality of toxic shock. On my way to conference this morning, I went in and bought a packet of eight tampons. On the back is a warning, if you've got a magnifying glass that is. They finally put it on after pressure from the campaign. Inside you take the leaflet out, after you've taken all the other tampons out of course, because they block the removal of the leaflet, you get a leaflet like this. It's in eight different languages. In fact, it's in English down one side here. I'll tell you what you need even better mike er magnifying glass to read it. Toxic shock, the symptoms. I'll tell you what, me eyesight isn't great, but nevertheless I struggle with that. It's there, it's that little section in all of that. That's the safety warning. That's what we're calling for. Alice's parents didn't know about toxic shock, and the fact it could be related to using a tampon, but also the parents of some other children, other women didn't know either. Their daughters also died. It's caused by a bacteria that's on many of our skins. In fact you find it high up in your nose, remember that next time you pick your nose. In thirty five percent of women it's found in the vagina as well. The use of the tampon creates the right atmosphere for that bacteria to breed, and they very quickly start to attack the immune system of the body. It enters the body in the bloodstream through the vaginal wall. It attacks vital organs. Those who have survived this horrible, horrible illness, in fact, have often lost vital organs, have been left with a legacy that will last for their lives. One parent described the condition of her daughter in hospital, when she saw her, who was also suffering from toxic shock. There was a brown poison oozing from her eyes, nose, her ears, her gums. The smell was unbelievable. Lauren was rotting away in front of me. That is toxic shock syndrome. We're asking that you educate people about the symptoms. Thank God it is rare, but sadly attacks those who are young. Often, they're most at risk, and yet the manufacturers promote their products quite extensively in many hous of our schools, up and down this land. All we're asking for is a sense of balance, all we're asking for is for the facts put in there, so at least if the symptoms are made aware, then at least people are aware to do something about it. Because as I've described, time is of the essence, because if people don't realize the symptoms, then often the opportunity is missed. We're asking for a union campaign, and I've got to applaud Mick and APEX at the APEX conference, we are at the forefront of this issue, we've worked hard with that family, Jenny and Peter to bring this issue to the, to national attention, through that, our Euro M P, through Denise there, Denise has brought it into Europe. Today at the fringe meeting where seventy odd people attended, I've been inundated by people who've come forward and said we wanna raise it, we wanna put instructions on the machines that dispense these. You've heard the talk, the family their son, her brother, has helped to produce a video. He is nineteen. There'll be no birthday party in Manchester, but please God, Alice's memory will live on, and please God, maybe somebody else's daughter will be saved. Conference I thank you. President, Congress, Sheila , South Western region, pleased to second the composite. Delegates, can you see what I'm holding. Some of you probably can't, it's small. But this is a tampon and as I said, it's small. But the danger that it threatens is no small matter, and conference, it doesn't only affect women, because if you lose a child or a partner, a cousin, an aunt, or a sister, then brothers, it affects you. Toxic shock syndrome, T S S is a very rare complaint, linked with the use of vaginal tampons. It is a deadly and a serious one. It has killed three young women in Britain, in the past three years, and put many more in hospital. Deaths have also been reported in the United States, and if recovery is possible, then vital organs such as the liver, kidneys and lungs are badly damaged. Conference, young people especially need to be informed, as free samples are being given out in schools and colleges, and often the family of these young girls are unaware that their daughters are using these products even doctors and hospital staff fail to ask the question when these cases are admitted, are you using tampons? President, the under twenty fives are thought to be particularly at risk. Whilst there is no way at present to test whether this bacteria is carried, or if immunity to the toxin is low, awareness of the problem can minimize the risk, or the decision to use the tampon can be taken. Conference this motion calls upon Congress to organize a campaign to provide legislation to regulate all aspects of manufacture, coordinate research, and to raise awareness throughout the G M B membership, and also the general public. Please support the composite. Dorothy , Birmingham West Midlands region, supporting composite thirty two, speaking without the support of my region, but only because we didn't get around to discussing it, but we will, we will. Eight years ago, no nine years ago, I lost a three year old grandchild from something very much like T S S, and that was erm streptococcus septicaemia. Twenty four hours from onset to death. And because of a very mild T S S infection, it's very unlikely that my daughter will ever have another child, so I wholeheartedly support the composite motion, but want to emphasize what we as individuals must do. Yes, we do need new legislation. It's bad enough that unlike razor blades, which are zero rated, sanitary protection attracts seventeen and a half percent V A T because it is not classed as a medical necessity. Try telling that to a woman who bleeds five days in every month for thirty, thirty five, forty years of her life. Now we learn that tampons are not classed as medical appliances and therefore not subject to the same stringent government legislation on manufacture and sterility which applies to say condoms which when you come to think about it are destined for the same anatomical region. Yes, we do need a union led campaign to reach our members, but that is not enough. We all have a part to play. Just look at the T V hype on sanitary protection, especially tampons and see who it is aimed at. According to T V ads women do not menstruate if they are thirty, or forty, or fifty. We know they do. They don't menstruate if they're fat, or plain or disabled. The T V image woman does not push a buggy or a vacuum cleaner, or a lawnmower or a shopping trolley. More importantly from our point of view, she does not operate a press or a lathe, nor a welding machine or check-out till, nor a typewriter or computer, or an industrial sewing machine. She is not a home help or a hospital ancillary worker, in short she does not work, she is not in a trade union, so she will not read our journals. She is young slim and beautiful. She leads a glamorous, active exciting life. Indeed, if I used Tampax I might go hang-gliding this weekend. No, the image is aimed at the most vulnerable. Young girls eager to break into the heady delights of adult freema freedom and excitement. Who can't be bothered to read health warnings on cigarette packets let alone tampon packets. We have to reach them, but how? If you're a school governor or a member of a P T A or just a parent, you must demand that the real facts of life and death are part of sex and hygiene education. If you have daughter or a granddaughter, or a niece, you must speak out. If you are involved with a youth club, or guides, or venture scouts or whatever, anywhere you can reach the ears and minds of young girls you must speak out and tell it how it really is. Tampons are not smart. Tampons are not glamorous, they are truly bloody dangerous. Congress, delegates, please support, and please remember, and please, please act. Go on Joanne , Lancashire region supporting composite motion thirty two. President, Congress, I am a sufferer of toxic shock syndrome. Late last year I was getting terrible stomach pains. They started at the beginning of one week, by the Thursday, the pain and the sickness were so bad they took me to hospital. There, they gave tests and examined me. They could not find nothing wrong for why I was so ill. The doctors firstly thought I had food poisoning. They asked me personal questions that I could not even repeat here today. Finally after more tests, a nurse, not a doctor, asked if I had used tampons. I said yes, so she informed the doctor, who ordered some more tests. By this time, my temperature and blood pressure was so high I could not even be given a proper anaesthetic. I underwent the most frightening time of life, and all this was because of ignorance. We need to campaign, to urge, no urge is not strong enough, to insist that tampon manufacturers clearly highlight the symptoms and risks to users. I was told that my chances now have been greatly reduced of ever having my own family. At twenty five this is a very hard thing to be told. What future do I now have? I hope that by telling you my personal experience it will help to save others. Congress, please support this motion. President, Congress, Denise , from the South West region. Firstly, thank you very much Kevin, for the tribute, but there's a heck of a lot more people need their names included in that list and I think one of them's just joined it. I like to address this Congress very briefly, and I'd like to address the men. Please don't be embarrassed about this subject. I know it's not something that most of you are used to talking on a day to day basis, and if you go back to your workplace and you happen to be in a very male dominated workplace, it's not necessarily gonna be the easiest thing to broach with your colleagues when you get back. A little while ago, we heard about something called AIDS, and it's something that's terrified most of us in one way or another. When I first heard about it, someone said to me, within the next ten years, one of ten of us will know of someone who's died from it. That was about six years ago, I heard that, and I've heard of one person already that I've personally met. We've all come to use the word condom in public conversation and nobody gets embarrassed about that any more, and that's what has to happen now. Condoms are something that everyone uses every day. Tampons are something that only women use, but it's something that must become part of our voc vocabulary if we're to save lives. By avoiding this situation and pretending it's not happening means that we can actually be risking the lives of one our friends, one of our family. Please think about that. The legislation that we're trying to put into progress, through the cam campaign is obviously gonna take a long time to achieve, so word of mouth is absolutive absolutely vital. Please, I'll pass on the information that you've received, contact Kevin or myself for the details that are on the leaflets we've put about. If you want the information. The video is available. Please get your branch to buy a copy, ten pound is hardly any money at all from branch funds, so that you push this round and get it shown. As has been suggested by earlier speakers, please pass it on through schools, colleges wherever you might be active within the movement, or through children in local schools. I'd lastly like to say a thank you to Kevin, because I think, as a man, it is obviously more difficult for him to broach this subject, and he's been pursuing this through APEX through for a very long time, and has worked extremely hard, so I'd like to say thank you to him, and thank you to you now for taking the message back home. Hear, hear. Before we vote, I'll take one more speaker, Ken. President, Congress, Ken , Midland and East Coast region. Congress, I've come to the rostrum today because, some weeks ago, as Chairman of er Grimsby Constituency Labour Party, this leaflet arrived on the desk of our office. It somewhat shook me rigid, and through my colleague, Peggy who received a gold award this week, we got some of those leaflets, that were sent to us, and Peggy wrote a letter, around to the workplaces in Grimsby and Cleethorpes, and as a role, as trade union liaison officer with Grimsby C L P, she sent it to the workplaces within Grimsby. When I raised it as Chairman at the General Management Committee, I was disgusted to find that people laughed at the very subject that was so important to women who've come up here today to let us know the consequences of what was happening. I had to bawl those people out for not having due consideration to the effects of other human beings and the problems that they have. But from that meeting some good came, because thanks to Peggy , and the rest of the lady delegates from the G M B on the executive of the Grimsby C L P which amount to sixteen, I've managed to get two thousand toxic shock syndrome forms around United Biscuits, Ross Group, S G M Chemicals, the whole of the Humber bank, and everywhere else that we can get it into. I've also instructed the secretary of Great Grimsby C L P to write to the Education Authority, to get us into schools and colleges and when we received a reply from the Education Authority, to my dismay, they didn't know anything about it. Conference, I think you can see that we in Grimsby, have done a little bit, we would like to do more, we support the composite, and we support the lady speakers that've come up here today. I support. Thank you Ken. Colleagues, motion two six one, hormone replacement therapy, to be moved by G M B Scotland If the seconder and also the mover of two six nine from Yorks, would come to the front as well, and the Midland region who are moving comp six along with the C E C speaker Sue , we'd be very grateful. Time's moving on, colleagues, now. President, Congress, I'm Morag , G M B Scotland, moving motion two six one. It's hormone replacement the therapy, it's better known as H R T. Congress, the woman worker is often low paid, and suffers from the menopause symptom and has to pay the full prescription charges for a treatment of H R T. Every woman at Congress will sooner or later suffer through the menopause. Colleagues who suffer through the menopause sometimes can't afford to pay the high cost of a pre-paid prescription charge. It's about fifty pound now there somewhere, this is unfair of this Tory government, who by the way doesn't agree with women in the front benches. Virginia Bottomley, she'd get more sympathy to the women of Britain and give the treatment free of charge. Mrs Bottomley do you suffer with these symptoms of the menopause? I wonder. I would have this country,con congress, to support this motion for the health and welfare of women members of the G B M B trade union, I move. Thank you very much for listening. Seconder for two six one , Chair, Conference, seconding motion two six one. H R T contains es oestrogen, which is highly beneficial to older women at the change when they lose their natural supply. It gives them energy and helps them in general physical and mental health. It's also good for the skin. Above all, it strengthens bones and prevents brittle bone disease. Hip replacement operations are gone with it. Think of the cost of these on the National Health Service, it's costing a fortune. H R T will avoid these problems for most women. Some sources argue, it slightly increases the risk of breast cancer. What doesn't nowadays? Free H R T could save the National Health Service millions by keeping women healthier, happier and active. It also means women workers having less time off sick, having more energy and more strength throughout the menopause. It costs more than a normal prescription, two or three times as much, one charge for each hormone they contain, yet means the difference between health or serious illness and peace of mind for you and your partner. I second. Motion two six nine, Yorkshire. Maureen , Yorkshire, North D Derbyshire region speaking in support of motion two six nine, Working Women's Safety. There has been a marked increase in the number of women working in isolated areas and the G M B has been campaigning for improvements in safety on public transport, a campaign which must continue. Employers must also real realize their responsibilities in ensuring that their employees do not work in fear of attack. If employees, employers put the same importance on the safety and security of their fav female employees as they do on the security of their property, there would probably be an instant improvement. Women who work in community are particularly at risk, housing wardens and particularly home care assistants, who work in some of the worst inner city areas are very often called out at night to attend someone who has been taken ill and yet no thought is given to the potential danger they could be facing in carrying out their job or what, to or what preventive measures can be taken. Whilst we appreciate the financial constraints being faced upon the public sector, we must not accept this as a reason for doing nothing. The importance of women's safety at work cannot be underestimated, and we need to pursue this issue in the workplace, in the community and at local national level. Safety represen representatives should place women's safety on safety committee's agenda and it should remain there until improvements are achieved. Further pressure should be brought to bear through local and national negotiation ma machinery. Lobbies of local councillors for improvements in street lighting should be organized, campaigns organized in conjunction with trade councils would raise awareness of the general public and we should also involve the transport unions. And last, but not least, everyone in Congress has a responsibility to go back to their workplaces and communities and begin the campaign, not next year, or the year after, but next week. Congress support. Thank you very much seconder for two six nine Linda , Yorkshire and North Derbyshire region seconding motion two six nine on Working Women's Safety. President, Congress. Rapes, murders, assaults, kidnaps and muggings are reported daily in newspapers and in the media. Violent crime is increasing at an alarming rate, and more and more of our members are at risk of becoming victims. I work at a distribution centre, where there is continuous shiftwork, which means that women and men are walking home at all hours of day and night often taking short-cuts across playing fields and waste land, totally unaware of the potential dangers. If we have our own transport, our car is in the darkest, remotest area. I'm sure this sounds familiar. Isn't it strange that the well lit, easily accessible car park is reserved for managers? Many regions have produced guidelines on personal safety, and have advised branches where personal attack alarms can be purchased at a very reasonable cost. This should clearly demonstrate to employers that the G M B takes this issue seriously and negotiators at all levels should be encouraged to approach employers to purchase personal attack alarms for their employees at risk. My region and the G M B are very concerned for our members' safety. Employers should also be concerned. There are several ways in which employers can take a positive lead in, lead by organizing awareness training. Assistance can be sought through community police departments, who will usually provide a speaker to talk to employers and their employees about all aspects of risk. Employers could also provide extra lighting in car parks and on paths on their premises, and to consider providing free transport to and from work, particularly for evening and night workers. The cost of these actions would not be prohib prohibitive, and would be offset by the savings achieved in increased morale and not having to subsidize violent crime through sick pay schemes. Congress support. Composite motion six, to be moved by Midlands, seconded by Southern. Peggy , Midlands and East Coast region, moving composite six, Harassment and Bullying at Work. President, delegates, harassment has been clearly defined, and c can take a number of forms. It can be sexual, racial, physical, verbal or bullying. It can come from various sources, bosses, colleagues, customers, clients or the public at large. Harassment is perhaps the most widespread problem in, in Britain today. Managers con who constantly pick on individuals sometimes resulting in sudden and unsupportable dismissals. The more vulnerable the person is at their place of work, the more often harassment takes place. The victims of harassment are reluctant to make a complaint for a number of reasons. They are embarrassed by the conduct, and don't want to talk about it. They fear victimization especially if the harasser is their boss or someone senior to them. They hope that if they ignore the, the behaviour it will stop or they don't believe their complaint will be taken seriously or that any action will be taken at all. President, colleagues, as most of you are aware I work in the food industry, in, in this industry the majority are female. Some of the horror stories that I hear are horrendous, but I want to tell you three issues that I do actually know about. I know of a young female who had to show a leading hand a tampon out of her pocket, to prove that she needed a toilet. I know of a manager who seems to get great pleasure by bullying females and male w and male workers. I know of a female member of this union who was sexually abused by her male colleagues, who I might add, are members of the G M B. She made numerous complaints to her manager, who happened to be male, what did he do? Nothing, nothing at all. He ignored her complaints. What did she do? Who could she turn to? She turned to the union. The G M B, who have taken up her case, which is still ongoing today. President, colleagues, this harassment has got to be stopped. There must be hundreds of females and males out there too frightened to speak out in case they lose their jobs, because let's not forget there have been many cases in which males have been harassed or are being ha harassed. Conference, I was pleased to read that British Gas has implemented an employee harassment policy and procedure scheme, to help employers deal with this issue. Since it started in December nineteen ninety one, two hundred and sixty nine workplace counsellors have been trained to help employees with this problem. In most cases, problems have been resolved informally. To date, four cases have gone through the disciplinary procedure. Conference, you have the composite in front of her, in front of you, you've heard the facts from myself, please support the composite as it can and it will affect you all. I move. Will the seconder from Southern. Formally seconded. Thank you very much indeed. Call Sue to put the C E C position. Sue , speaking on behalf of the C E C and it's nice to be back, and it's nice to be feeling well again. In respect of these erm motions, I'd like to make a couple of points on each one. The cancer screening, everybody must remember as Kevin said on the toxic shock erm motion, that it's your wife, your sister, your daughter who needs the cancer screening, the same thing applies to the toxic shock syndrome. It applies to health right across the board. As far as ho erm the H R T is erm here we go you see, this is post-natal illness this is right, we need one on that as well, but what we need to know, and what we need to be aware of, is that the discussion has to be actually put out through the members in the same sort of way as Ken and Peggy have done in the erm Midland and East Coast region and also on Working Women's Safety, it needs to be taken on board that we are absolutely fed up , sick to death and absolutely running out of patience at having to hammer home this thing about equality. There is no need for us to actually have to drill into people, that we don't want to be bullied, pushed around, and that nine times out of ten, the violence or the bullying is male to female. It's not always that way, but we are absolutely sick and tired of it and it's about and sisters, that whenever we come across it, we make sure that those people don't continue that type of harassment. With apologies for not being a perfect speech, but without any apologies for the symptoms that I'm suffering too, because you all need to know about that as well. Thank you. Colleagues, the C E C are supporting all the motions that have just been debated, and I propose to take the vote. Motion two five eight, all those in favour? Against? That's carried. Composite motion thirty two, all those in favour Against? That's carried. Motion two six one, all those in favour? Against? That's carried. Motion two six nine, all those in favour? Against? That's carried. Composite motion six, all those in favour? That's carried, anybody against? Er, colleagues, health and environment, composite motion five, to be moved by Midland, motion two six four, green issues in the environment, Lancashire region to move, motion two six five, noise pollution to be moved by G M B Scotland, motion two six six, Birmingham personal injuries disclaimers. Motion two six eight, alcohol in the workplace, Birmingham to move. Comp seven, Lancashire region to move. Now, that obviously means, colleagues that we're, we're going over for a period of time, but we're er slightly behind this afternoon, so certainly need to be trying to pull some work back. So, it's comp five, Midland region to move, Northern to second. Thank you very much Keith , Midland and East Coast region, moving composite motion five. President, Congress calls upon all regions within the G M B to ensure that all safety reps and activists are supplied with all relevant information and details regarding the introduction of the new E E C directives on health and safety, which was introduced in the U K in January this year. We must put a stop to employees being put at risk, and being pressurized by ruthless employers to work unsafe, under the threat of if you don't do it, then we'll get somebody that will. We've all heard haven't we? We know employees are being blackmailed with their jobs to risk life and limb so employers can make a fat profit at our expense. But when companies are fined for breaking the health and safety laws, they only get fined a pittance, compared to what damage is caused to employees through companies' neglect and law breaking. The new directives should go a long way to ensuring that employers do not abuse their employees in terms of unsafe working practice, practices. With health and safety legislation, safety reps would have the law on their side when challenging these employers. With implementation of these new directives, hopefully it will eliminate such instances as the Y T S worker who was instructed by his employer to weld a petrol tanker which had not been properly cleaned out, and still contained dangerous fumes, which resulted in the loss of a life. In this case, the employer was fined two thousand pound, the maximum fine. Such employers should be made to pay the price of the crime, they should be fined heavily, or even imprisoned. The maximum fine shouldn't be two thousand pound but at least twenty thousand pound, equal to that legislated for breaking environmental and food hygiene laws. This union needs to ensure that all our safety reps take advantage of the new directives, because with a reduction of health and safety inspectors, health and safety has never been so bad. I ask you to support this motion. President, Congress, Ron , Northern region seconding composite five. Congress, we are now enjoying probably the best legal protection ever to safeguard our health and safety at work. Since nineteen seventy four and the implemation implementation of the Health and Safety At Work Act, we've seen new legislation in the form of safety reps, safety committees, COSHH regulations, and of January this year, the introduction of six European directives on health and safety. All these regulations, colleagues, do you feel any safer? Legal protection at work that has ignored. We have seen dramatic increases in serious fata and fatal accidents occurring in British industry, our legal departments continue to cover millions on behalf of workers who suffer injury, disease and even death. L l employers pay lip service to health and safety. In the last ten years we have seen a fifty percent rise in serious and fatal accidents, at whose expense colleagues? The Tories continue to block, water and water down protection,desi sorry, down protection designed to safeguard our members, the idea that a safety rep should have the right to stop the job in the interest of safety, is almost a feasible offence. The fact of the matter is, the safety rep is probably the best trained member of the workforce, able to deal with health and safety problems in the workplace, and safeguard our members from hazards. Safety reps are entitled to training. This provides background knowledge so that often not only spots a hazard, but actually saves a life. Congress, our laws are weakened at the Tories request, and recent announcements that the public funding of trade union education is to be stopped has even brought a c cry of outrage from the Health and Safety Executive. The right to stop the job has to be our campaign cry, lay officials and full-time officials must integrate the priority of health and safety issues. Our political allies in the Labour Party should spell out exactly what it means to work in an unsafe environment, and last but not least, we should push the message of the National Health and Safety Conference of last year, better safe than sorry. Thank you colleagues. Motion two six four, Lancashire region. Pam , Lancashire region, moving motion two six four. President, Congress, whatever happens over the next few years, one thing is sure, the environment is here to stay. The environment whether at global level, community or the workplace level, affects all our members. Trade unions have been slow to develop their own approach,is coming, and the G M B should be at the forefront. We will delev develop a collective approach. At workplace level, we start our own health and safety issues, in the community we can support the local environment protection issues, and at international level, we too can have the influence. We are about the only organization that can operate at all these levels. You can now see why we wish to commit the G M B to extend the role of health and safety representatives, to embrace environmental issues. To do this, we need to develop our training accordingly. This may be done directly by us, or through the T U C and that way we would save some of our vital resources. Meanwhile, our employers are becoming more involved, and for a variety of reasons. One is to get a marketing edge on their rivals. Secondly, some are concerned that they cannot go on plundering our planet without costs escalating, and thirdly others realize that international laws are here to stay, so they may as well accept them. But one further development is the British Standard, the B S seven seven five O, and seeks out to set the systems of environmental management. It is compatible with the recent E C Audit and Management Regulations, and it deals with all the partners a company may have. Not just its customers, but those partners include people in the local community and ourselves. We should be approaching selected companies now, and finding out whether they wish to develop this standard. We can then be involved in the setting of performance indicators and carrying out audits, much like we carry out our safety inspections, and that way we may be able to work on joint policies on the environment. But you all may be thinking, that is all well and good, but where are we going to find the time, the support, and the resources to do this. We are already too stretched, and the law does not give us automatic ex access to time off for training, but we have got to ask, and we should commit the G M B to lobby for an extension of existing laws, and to lobby for various E C funds, and then we can begin to make a real impact on the environment. I move. President, Congress, Les , Lancashire region, speaking in support of motion two six four. This motion calls for safety reps to be given the right to be involved in all workplace environmental issues, including inspections of all plant and equipment, assessing the compliance with company policies and the regulatory requirements. The employers will tell you that environmental auditing is solely a management tool, but, B S seven seven five O, and the Euro Community regulations, should lead to increased employee and T U involvement. If an audit shows that a practice, substance or plant is an environmental hazard, then the results of the assessment should available for all employees and reps alike. We're calling upon the G M B to incorporate environmental training and awareness in health and safety courses, thereby enabling our safety reps to address the issues with their employers, and stress the need to establish environmental policies. We are also calling on the G M B to pursue this issue through the T U C and any other avenues that may be open in the hope that, as a result, we can enjoy a better environment and quality of life at work. In taking up on green and environmental issues, it will give the G M B a much higher profile, and make non-members and the general public alike more aware of the good things that we are striving for on their behalf. This can only be good for the G M B and it would hopefully bring on board some, if not all of the doubting Thomases, that have said in the past that we do nothing for them. Please support this motion, and go for a better life for all. I support. Thank you. Thanks Les. Motion two six five, G M B Scotland to move, and as the mover is coming to the rostrum, just by way of a change, colleagues, can I extend on your behalf, a very warm welcome to one of our women M Ps? Member of this union, Brigitte Prentice from Lewisham East. Okay colleague. President, colleagues, Margaret , Scottish region, moving motion two six five. The main objective of this motion is to create conditions that our members will not suffer deafness because of industrial noise. Over the years our members have suffered massive damage to their hearing. The forerunners of the campaigns and fights to introduce legislation to prevent the continuation of this disease, was the Technical Craft section, previously the Boilermakers. But even with the successful, and still limited legislation, backed up with the pressure of millions of pounds recovered in compensation by our union, we still have a long way to go. We believe that prevention is better than losing one of our senses that denies our members a major part of their quality of life. We therefore ask conference to support this motion. Thank you. Thank you very much. Is that seconded? Is that seconded? Formally seconded? Thank you very much. Motion two six six, Birmingham region to move. Congress, President, Cliff , Birmingham and West Midland region, moving motion two six six. This motion is the disgraceful practice by certain insurance companies, of having settled a claim for personal injury, get a person to sign a disclaimer. Then the company puts them back on the same job and they further injure themselves. Immediately you put in another claim, and the insurance company turns round and says hard luck mate, you've signed away to say that was the settlement for that injury for once and all time and we won't accept another claim for the same injury. I believe that the C E C is accepting this, and I just want to say to the branch secretaries out there, do what I do, tell every member grab the cheque and throw the disclaimer in the bin. I move. The seconder for two six six. Formally seconded, thank you. Motion two six eight, Birmingham region to move. Formally moved. Is it formally seconded? Here Thank you very much. Composite seven, Lancashire region to move, Yorkshire region to second. Formally moved, formally seconded. Come on George run, come on. George , Lancashire region moving composite seven. Erm,for those of you, and it seems to me that there's not many people been upstairs and collected these things, but this er motion is covered by two G M B documents that are upstairs and for the people to catch with us. One of the things I found out about this one, is that, welder's lung is still not recognized as an industrial disease er of all this time, and yet, if you have welder's lung by er using stainless steel, it is, but it comes under asthma, so that's something that we feel that should be being pushed by the G M B. Erm,the composite asks for erm, this document to be pushed with all employers. Well, the only way you'll do that is by giving them a copy. That's my feelings erm. I move. Thanks very much indeed George. Kevin , Yorkshire and North Derbyshire seconding composite seven, prescribing industrial diseases. President, Congress, carpal tunnel syndrome is just one of a large family of painful, uncomfortable, and distressing work related upper limb disorders. These diseases create a great deal of pain and suffering to our members. They cost the country a small fortune in lost time and health care every year, but only a limited few of prescribed ind industrial diseases are recognized. Carpal tunnel syndrome has recently been recognized and added to the list of prescribed industrial diseases but only when linked to vibrating hand tools. This is ridiculous. The pain from this condition is the same whatever the cause. Everyone knows that you don't have to play tennis to suffer from tennis elbow, likewise carpal tunnel is not the cause by vibrating hand tools. The G M B must continue the campaign for recognition of the many still unrecognized upper limb disorders, and all the causes of these painful conditions. Yes, we do need a common approach throughout the E E C to these conditions. We need a common and comprehensive list of prescribed industrial diseases and a common procedure for dealing with them. Anyone confirmed as suffering from a prescribed industrial disease should receive compensation for their condition without having to wait for the findings of a long drawn-out court arguments. This union's campaigned tirelessly for recognition of industrial diseases and their causes, this campaign must continue. Please support the composite. Thanks very much indeed colleague. Erm, I call upon Mark to put the C E C position in respect of motion two six four. All the other motions are being accepted by the C E C. President, Congress, Mark , Northern region, speaking on behalf of the C E C. Congress the C E C are asking you to support motions two six five, two six six and two six eight, and composite motions five and seven and to support motion sixty four, two six four with a qualification. Composite five calls of safety reps to have legal rights to halt hazardous operations in workplaces. This is something that the G M B have been campaigning for since nineteen ninety. Our workplaces kill campaign says that safety reps should have the right to stop the job when workers are in serious danger and where employers refuse to act. We have not given up that demand. There are still reckless employers who will place our members at risk. As long as they exist, we call on safety reps to have the legal right to stop the job without fear of intimidation or victimization. The G M B also want employers who flout the law to be properly punished, not a slap on the wrist which many hand out, we want imprisonment for serious offenders, and fines which will make potential offenders think twice before cutting corners and putting our members at risk. As composite seven points out, when our members are injured or made ill by their work, they should not have to wait years for compensation, we need a system which is swift, fair and comprehensive. Our President, Dick , sits on Industrial Injury Advisory Council, and does his utmost, but as Dick knows only too well, that the system is tangled up in red tape, and also Tory ministers who are busy cutting costs at the expense of injured workers. Unlike this government, the G M B gives practical help. We have just produced a new rights guide, called Accident and Diseases at Work, which is available, hot off the press, on the health and safety stall. This explains the compensation and benefits system, and will help those who need to make a claim. Motion two six four, quite rightly recognizes that environmental issues are a growing concern. The intention of the motion is sound, but the C E C are of the view that the environmental activities will need to be properly supported, for instance, safety reps have no legal rights on the environment, as they do with health and safety, and this may cause problems. Congress, is asked to accept this motion, with a qualification that the union will need to develop a framework of support for workplace environment activities. This will take some time. Just one item also on composite seven. The carpal in er tunnel syndrome, as from April the nineteenth, was declared a pr prescribed industrial disease. Congress, please support motion two six five, two six six, two six eight and composite motions five and seven and motions two six four with qualifications. Thank you. Thanks very much Mark. As Mark has said, colleagues, the C E C are recommending your support on all the motions. I propose to take the vote. Composite motion five, all those in favour? Against? That's carried. Motion two six four, all those in favour? Against? That's carried. Motion two six five, all those in favour? Against? That's carried. Motion two six six, all those in favour? Against? That's carried. Motion two six eight, all those in favour? Against? That's carried. Com Composite motion seven, all those in favour? Against? That's carried. Colleagues, we've now got two motions on the T U C, motion three eight eight, T U C Conference to be moved by the London region. Congress, President, er Bert from the London region moving motion three eight eight, and President with your permission, three eight nine simultaneously because Yes the arguments are in fact the same yes indeed that'd be very helpful Bert. alright We're not supporting him, but it'd be very helpful That's a surprise Dick, innit? Bert, is it a sort of composite? Well, no it's not actually John. Don't try and muddy the waters, please. We've had enough of that this week already. Right, er. I, I I came here last year on behalf of the London region er with this particular er issue. We did ask at the annual conference, that the trades council be reinstated They refused the composite er, that in future, said conference would be able to pass at least one motion to the T U C Congress elect delegates to the same. This year the Trades Union Council Conference was held in Birmingham, and it congratulated the decision of the nineteen ninety two T U C Congress, to re-establish the national trade union council structure. At that conference, there was a motion from Merseyside, recognizing the shift in the T U C's position, but asking for what we're asking for today. Let me quote you part of that motion. It went this conference believes, that the role of trade union councils at local level, whose value is clearly acknowledged, must be strengthened by being given the right to express a view through its democratically elected delegates at annual conference within the framework of the T U C. Conference believes that if we are to be truly representative, with full democratic involvement within the movement, then the T U C should allow this conference the right to send two motions and delegates to the T U C Congress each year. Such a development can only encourage participation in trades union councils and thus help to strengthen the entire movement at grass root level . In other words, by agreeing the Merseyside motion, or in this case, three eight eight, and three eight nine, the democratic process would be complete. After all, trades councils are the local versions of the T U C, and so it would seem appropriate that they get a say at the T U C Congress itself. Now you could just vote for m motion three eight eight, and to which would say that delegates from the T U the trades councils could go to Congress, but not actually speak on any motions or you could vote for three eight eight and three eight eight and three eight nine, which of course, I'd like you to do. Now, doubtless you are aware, that the C E C is opposing both. That came as a great surprise to me I can tell you. Last year it not only opposed these proposals, it sent Alex , er a T U C hack if there ever was one, Oh, come on up to the rostrum to put the boot in. Now let me remind you what he said. He said,trades council delegates can hardly be deemed to be representative of the broad interests of our movement. Now let me ask you, a lot of you this, some of you have been coming to Congress year after year, you probably come from branches from five hundred, a thousand, fifteen hundred people, but how many people actually go to the branch meetings to elect you to come to Congress? Are you representing the broad interests of your branch? It's a spurious argument on Alex 's behalf. He also said, I mean groups of people who are not answerable to wider collective membership. Of course we're answerable. We don't go to trades councils as individuals, we're there as representatives of our individual trades unions, and we have to abide by those rules. Of course we're accountable. Lastly, he said, we are committed to try and keep the trades council movement alive. That's very reassuring isn't it? It's like putting Dracula in charge of a blood bank. Anyway, look, it's not for him to say that he's gonna keep the trades council movement alive, the trades council movement can well look after itself, without the interference of the dead hand of the T U C. Now the reason I mention last year's events, is that I suspect that the same arguments are gonna be trotted out again. The hidden agenda was and is, to get rid of trades councils to save money. Well, I've got a better idea. Let's get rid of the T U C itself in its present form, then we'd really save some money won't we? When Norman Willis, the fat friar, finally shim shimmies off into obscurity, he should take the melancholy monk and all the rest of the Bloomsbury tales with him. We'd save a nice few quid then, wouldn't we? We could turn Congress House into a night shelter for the homeless instead of what it is now, a refuge for the gormless. I hope you're not taking this personally? The trades council movement is alive and well all over the country. I'm a bit worried about that Activists are helping comrades in dispute, be they miners, railway workers, bus drivers or whatever. And let's face it, not many other bodies are doing anything, certainly not the T U C. The T U C is a national institution, bit like the F A cup final really, a sell-out every year. Maybe we've just misunderstood, even though we've been around for a long time, my own trades council in Battersea and Wandsworth celebrated its hundredth anniversary this year. That makes it even more important for the trades council rank and file to be represented at the T U C Congress, so people know what the reality is. So never mind what the executive amends, recommend, stick your hand up for three eight eight and three eight nine and give a bit of power back to the people. I move. Is John from the T U C in the house today? He will be in a minute, he will be in a minute Was those motions formally seconded? No, no Fine President, Congress, Keith , London region, seconding motions three eight eight and three eight nine. Congress, trades councils are the grass roots of the trades union movement. Their delegates are rank and file activists at the cutting edge of industrial relations. The gap in understanding between trade, the ordinary trade unionists and the so-called barons appears to be widening. Sending delegates to Congress would be a small step in the fight against centralization. Debate in trades councils is more wide-ranging, reflecting a diversity of views, that are always found in a more parochial environs of Labour Party, and individual trade union branches. There is nothing to fear from this motion Congress, and it can only benefit the trade union movement. I second. Diversity of views Frank to put the C E C view. Thank you President, no hype, and no boot, just a bit of common sense I think. Trades councils where they exist, do valuable work in coordinating the efforts of our political and industrial sections without doubt, on many issues affecting their local, their local areas. The value of this work is recognized councils are the local versions of the council aware, however, that in reality, the national cover of active trades councils is, to say the least, patchy. To suggest that delegates from a conference of existing trades councils would reflect a truly national view, would be misleading. However, that's not the main concern of the C E C. The T U C Congress is made up of bone fide delegates from national trade unions. Those delegates attend on behalf of their unions, governed by national policies, set by their appropriate executives and by their conferences. Yes, you, you here. A very clear, easily understood position. Those unions are also responsible for funding and implementing the decisions of that conference. Colleagues, to allow a trades council delegate to represent a trades council view, which could mean an official or member of a trades union speaking in opposition to its national policy, would be unacceptable. Conference, the view of the C E C is quite simple. The T U C is made up of national affiliated unions, the delegates to its conference should be from those unions, the C E C ask you to oppose three eight eight and three eight nine. Thanks very much Frank I think Frank'll get it right next year won't he? Well, this is a bit of re-run of last year again, and I've got a feeling we're gonna lose the replay an' all, but, I'll give it a go. Erm, I don't, I don't know what er people are er afraid of, or frightened of really,j just by sending a couple of delegates from the trades councils that would er voice the concerns of the rank and file, it's not going to er set any dangerous precedents, and let's, let's not forget that those people would be from recognized trades unions as well. I mean, I take the point that there might be an opposition to some of their national officials, well it's quite a good idea really the more I think about it erm, but I just really don't see what there's anything to be frightened about. Even if you go halfway, and just say that the trades council conference could send two delegates, not to put trades council motions, but to give the trades council's view on important issues because the trades council representatives are representatives of the rank and file, they are the activists, they are the people like you, and I think they deserve a voice on a wider platform. I urge you to support both these motions. As Frank has indicated colleagues, the C E C are, are asking you to oppose both of these. I'll take the vote, three eight eight, all those in favour? Against? That's lost. Three eight nine, all those in favour? Against? That's lost. Colleagues, er it's now my very great pleasure to welcome Doreen , secretary of the G M B, Retired Members and Spouses Association. A tremendous fighter on behalf of our retired members, one of the growing sections of the union. Doreen Scott, colleagues. President, friends and colleagues. In this the European Year of the Older People and solidarity between generations, I bring you greetings from the pensioners. We realize and experience with you the difficulties that most working people have these days. We have children and grandchildren who face unemployment, high mortgages, worries with the health service, and violence on the street, and we compare it with our own youth which was spent in fighting a war, with rationing, air raids and separations. But, we always thought then that it was going to bring about the end of all these things and result in a future where Trades councils there would be security, full employment, and a great health and welfare service, where we would all be looked after in dignity in our old age. We did have that for a while, and we remember with pride, how the country was rebuilt and our health service was the envy of the world. Our children were fit and had opportunities for travel and a university education was there for those that wanted it. Unhappily now we are older it has all disappeared, and we must fight again just to retain the few rights we still have, such as state pensions and what is left of the health service. The pensioners' movement in which the G M B retired members play a part, is now widespread throughout the country. Those of you who remember Fred will know how he worked to start the British Pensioners and Trade Union Action Association as far back as nineteen seventy two. It was always his ambition to form a G M B Retired Members section, and this was accomplished seven years ago. We are grateful to our union for making this possible, and for sponsoring the retired members in this way ever since. We have adopted aims that may not win the war against poverty, but we hope we'll win battles to ease the burden on those older pensioners, especially those living alone on low incomes. Such battles as the abolition of additional charges made on telephones, gas and electricity bills, and now to add insult to injury, V A T. This government have to be made to realize what a cruel blow it has struck on the very weakest sections of the community, the unemployed and the five and half million pensioners living in poverty. Lack of travel concessions are another area involving burdens for many pensioners who cannot afford cars and have to rely on public transport. Last August, we were lucky enough to have John with us when we marched through London and delivered a petition of five hundred thousand signatures, requesting the Prime Minister to implement the British Pensioners' Charter. It was a great day, and best of all we even made it on the nine, on the six o'clock news. G M B pensioners were represented on the first delegation to visit the E E C in Brussels, in an effort to secure parity with the pensions in other European countries, and we also took part in the pensioners parliament in Luxembourg last year, to help to draw up a Pensioners' Charter for Europe. In March, as in past years, we had two members in the delegation that met with the all party committee for pensions in the House of Commons where we raised many of the matters that are worrying our generation including community care. Our present campaign is waged against targeting or means testing of benefits and pensions. We maintain that the pension is not a charity or a benefit, but is our right as something we pay contributions for all our working lives. This must be preserved Hear hear this must be preserved for f future pen pensioners, that's you, as well as for those of today. Already together with the British pensioners, we have over fifty thousand signatures on our latest petition. At the same time, we are supporting the union's campaign for equal retirement age at sixty. We work closely with the national pensioners convention, with whom we were founder members, and shall be joining in the greatest demonstration by senior citizens in London on the twenty ninth of this month. We continue to see the G M B Retired Members and spousen Spouses Association growing in strength, but we cannot afford to waste precious time. We have come to realize that many of us will not see the improvements in our quality of life, as this is going to take a long time. The country has lost so many of the good things we achieved after the war. We need some of the younger, newly retired to come and join us in the fight to restore the dignity and security that should be there for everyone in the autumn of their lives. We have had few successes in we have had a few successes in spite of this uncaring government, and feel that it has been worthwhile to protest. We had proved in a recent elections and even in the general election, that where the pensioners' movement was strong, the election results were more positive for candidates in support of our aims. We thank our union for their support, both morally and financially, and we shall continue to try and build up branches with your help throughout the U K. We hope some day that we shall have won all the battles, and then can relax and develop more of the social side of the retired member's association, but until then we enjoy the friendship and satisfaction of working together to secure a better deal for the elderly everywhere, and remember that, hopefully, you will all be pensioners one day. Thank you very much. Thank you very much indeed, Doreen. Colleagues, I'm gonna ask the General Secretary to make a short statement. John. Yes, colleagues, er colleagues who've attended conference before will know, that whenever we come to a conference town to have our Congress, we always like to leave something behind as a gift to the local community. This year, Mary , vice-President, and I, together with Eddie and Derek , representing the Southern region, went to St Peter's Centre, which is a day centre for people suffering from Alzheimer's disease, towards the north of Portsmouth, to contribute our cheque of a thousand pounds, which is going towards the extension of the centre. Er, this particular disease, Alzheimer's disease was identified by Jim , who was the deputy mayor, a member of ours, who spoke to you earlier in the week, as one of the hidden diseases in our society, where more help should be given not just from the people who suffer from the disease, but from their, for their families who have to support them. The money will go towards an extension and towards kitchen equipment in the extension, we had a nice time there, and there was a great deal of gratitude to the G M B. I say to you on behalf of the centre, thank you Congress, thank you very much. Thanks very much indeed John, er colleagues, just three points before we adjourn till tomorrow morning. Er, at some time during the course of tomorrow morning, I'll try and bring you up to date as to where we are in terms of the items that have fell off the agenda so far. We, we're not doing too badly, erm, but you need to know well in advance as to when those resolutions will be taken. So I'll try and give you an idea some time tomorrow morning of the of the situation. Could I advise colleagues, that there is the, the er, Question Time the fringe meeting Question Time which is due to start in about five minutes time, will last till seven o'clock. John is gonna chair it, John , deputy General Secretary of the T U C will be there,we hope, courtesy of Bert . Liz , Pat , and Patricia . Try and get there colleagues, it should be very interesting indeed, and again, another commercial. Don't forget the cassette tapes, available at the sales point, located outside of the Congress. It'll be able to remind you of all the wonderful speeches you've made so far. Congress stands adjourned till nine thirty tomorrow morning. Thank you very much. Relationship between trade and between members of state, strictly competition and I said I'd be the one erm relative case, just to demonstrate the course, Lord, erm I've usefully used the time this morning to do a, a brief aden am moire of the point, the relevant photographs and the, just in case, if I can just hand that out ena enable me to, to speed through the admission, my Lord if I can just er take the through it and apart, my Lord paragraph five is triggered by an agreement which effects trade between members of states, er in windsurfing the court considered an argument that the causes and the contested agreement which had been struck down by the commission did not forward then article eighty five because they did not have that trade between members of states, the court replied, that argument must be rejected, article eighty five does not require that each and individual cause in the agreement should be capable of affecting into community trade, community law or competition applies to agreements between undertakings which may effect member of states, only if the agreement as a whole is capable of effecting trade is it necessary to exam which other clauses of the agreement which havers there object, let's just say or, or effect the restriction of competition. The requirement effect on trade which member states of jurisdiction requirement, it is jurisdictionable because it is the first task that the commissioner of the court should undertake when considering quote from wind surfing get in constant and the concept and agreement which may effect trade is intended to define in the law governing cartels the boundary between the areas, respectively covered by community law and national law, it is not necessary law for the competition effected by the alleged restriction and the trade which is effected between members of states to be the same, an example in the defendants list of authorities it's in the principal and in that case the restriction of competition arose in relation to a product possible spirits which was itself used to manufacture other products namely cognac, it was argued that the that since there was no trade between members of state and possible spirits there could be no effect upon trade between member of states and so twenty five could not apply, the court accepted that factual premise, there is no trade between member of state and import of spirits, but rejected the legal conclusion, they concluded that is was necessary for there to be an effect upon trade in the market where the restrictions occurred, they was trading another product which was related to possible spirits, and of course stated, it must be observed in that respect that any agreement who's object to effect is to a strict competition by fixing minimum prices for an intermediate product is capable of effecting intro community trade, even if there is no trading in that intermediate product between members of state, that the product constitutes the raw material of another project marketing elsewhere Yes my Lord another factual situation which I'll simply referred to is the er on going debate in European commission or cases relating to up stream fuel, er, where there's very little trade, erm for technical reasons because of the isolation of the United Kingdom, however the commission has searched jurisdiction over restricted competition in the market because the fuels have a direct impact upon product, erm from production costs, product down stream of which there is trade mm and er analogist principal applies in relation to article eighty six and to this article the effect upon trade must flow from the abuse, however, the definition of the market arises in relation to establishing dominants, there are many cases which established, the market in which an undertaking is dominant need not be the same market as where the abuse occurred accordingly to establish an article of eighty six case, dominants may be proven in a market where there is no effect upon trade. In the vast majority of cases they will of course on the facts be a closed link between the nature of the trade effective between members of states and the competition that is restricted by the contested clause, this is because given that the restriction flows out in the agreement the later sets the context for former, accordingly as a simply matter of fact, restrictions of competition operating relating to the same market in which trade is affected between member of states, a restriction must be appraised in the context of the market, if the parties to the agreement or the high percent market share of the market, then a relatively minor restriction assumes greatest significance, on, firstly, if the parties hold a small share of the market then what appears obstensively be a serious restriction may turn out upon an assessment of facts to be minor or relatively insignificant, contrary to the submission of the plaintiff, the restriction of competition can be determined without a assessment of market, the court of first instance have recently held that the necessement of the market has necessary pre pre-conditioned of any judgement concerning the allegedly and competitive behaviour and your Lordship was taken to that paragraph page ninety two, just siting recently the and the present case the restrictions pleaded that paragraphs forty clements and the two twenty mason were for broadly to restrict the effects upon the insurance market, however the defendants have gone one step further and also identified other markets and sub markets in which the restrictions take immediate impact, this is logical for example in relation to the standard form agency agreement the restrictions have the most direct impact from the sub market to the provision of agencies services to names, competition is effected in this market since complete harmonization of secondary terms and trades are merely the criteria available to names when choosing an agent, however, the standard form contract also effects the wine and insurance market, the fact that the agent has unvetted powers to write any insurance which he sees fit affects the categories of insurance written within this is of course is the matter about which defendant makes complaint. My Lord I don't know if, if, if it's necessary to take your Lordship to the cases where there's quotes all set out No, I think I understand what you're saying my Lord, my Lord erm my Lord that really brings me to what are, er my conclusions, my Lord erm, can I just practice my conclusions with two erm comments, first of all about the, the my learned friend seems to paint erm in relation to this of course Mr made a point quite strongly that he agrees this is a relevant consideration and that er have exaggerated the situation and if they are willing to make a point a like this it would require evidence, they did point to their accounts, Lord erm I don't see to put in evidence, but the, the statutory statement of business served er filed by on the first of September this year with the D T I, revealed that has a total of sixteen and a half billion in it's members premium trust funds which is up four billion from the end of the previous year, erm, set against that the claims now made against the names is, is relatively speaking er small, erm my Lord yes my Lord I don't think there's much point in going through that, we don't believe it's relevant we believe well that's right but erm, they may well be small certainly, but er, er what are the other names, premium trust funds there for? well of a net, that to deal with claims er prospective claims, the future claims, of course all the existing policy holders have been paid and the premium trust funds are there to meet the future liabilities without yeah leading into the the bottom line is, is, is, is it not, that erm, er you're suggesting that your clients legal obligations to third party policy holders should be met by other names at , I mean that's the bottom line isn't it? well no the isn't it?, well who's, who's gonna meet them then? my Lord, the, the first point is the extent of what we're claiming well, answer the question Mr , if your clients aren't gonna meet these claims, who is? my Lord well no doubt then the answer is that erm that would eventually have to meet them through funds which they will bring in to the market and which will go into the, the central fund yes and how are they going to bring those funds in? from new trading what demands on, on future trade demands on names well my Lord in the same way that they've erm repeated the fund in the past yeah, would, would you advance me that one?thank you my Lord I, I, it the suspect counsel to is no they wouldn't, and they would raise precisely the same points as er being raised in this defence, er which are surely if there is anything in them, equally available to every other name my Lord we se , I don't think that's true because what we're saying and if and I believe it does flair from our keepers that erm we have to prove we've got to prove that these restrictions would of lead to category of business from what the yeah, part , part of your argument Mr is that the, that the erm members and managing agents agreements are void now if that's not right er they're all void are they not? my Lord erm what we're saying is that certain restrictions are void, if I can, if I can just work through one example, if the erm well er, I'm sorry to interrupt you, I'm sorry I do apologise, perhaps it's my tooth, it's making me even more testier than usual, erm, I, I thought your case was that these agreements were void my Lord, this is a problem which erm your Lordship's had submissions from both parties and of course it goes to specialist separates, first of all one identifies, one takes one and strikes out the defending clauses within the agreements that infringe article eighty five on then applies the, the test of severance to see whether the residual agreements remain or stand, but we certainly have not depleted that the entire arrangement avoid but we pleaded the restrictions are avoid, my Lord er and that's important because it could lead to consequence and we're pleading it that and if for example er power in the erm standard form agency agreement was rendered void because it was an unlawful restriction, it doesn't mean to say that erm an agent er a name might not of instructed an agent to write business, what we're saying is they may not have instructed him to write all of the business that he did in fact did er write for example L M X spiral and, now if, if a particular defendant can say well have I been well you know proper position that I would of been and the restrictions not been in place I would of instructed the agent to do precisely what he did, then of course he has no defence, that's a que that's a point, if he says well erm I, the facts suggest and established that I would never, ever have allowed the agents to underwr to write L M X spiral business and, and the only reason he was able to do that was because of the restrictions then he can escape liability for that part of the business underwritten yes and we've, we've alleged in the pleading that he made that he would have suffered erm either all or some part of loses would of been avoided, but that depends upon the facts and we're not claiming yeah, I see that, I see that, are, are you suggesting that those provisions in the members agents, managering agents agreements that the type of all those agents call upon your clients are void or valid? my Lord if, if if it was, if that was based upon illegal business we would say it was invalid, if it was based at the end of the day upon business that we would of erm permitted to have been written then we wouldn't have no our defence to it what, what do you mean it might be illegal business? well business that wouldn't, my Lord, that's perhaps the wrong description, business that would not of been written had the restrictions not been in place but erm, I, I thought it was both yours and Mr contention that through the doctoring of extensible authority and by, because of that doctoring your clients are not alleging that any contracts of insurance or re-insurance simply made on their behalf is unenforceable my Lord that that's with respect right, erm certainly what, what he says that doesn't necessarily lead to that conclusion all it does is have void what maybe authority between alright, well then building on that I don't quite understand it, if you're, you're saying that those provisions that allow agents to pull for whatever funds are necessary are what, void to what extent to the extent that the funds are or are said to be erm needed to satisfy claims on policies which had you known that which you say you ought to have known, you would not have er authorised the agents to write, type rather long that, but I my Lord that, that I I think that I thought er the, the chain sir the chain of logic and of course had it not been with one inter interposing there, had it not been for void restrictions, it would not have written, that's when they were written, they were written only because of the restrictions that's what enabled them to be written well could we perhaps have the agreements in front of us while we're looking at this point erm, where would be the best place to find them? bundle four my Lord tab five of bundle four it's clause nine isn't it?now is that struck down?erm by your defence or any part of it? well at, at, at the moment our, our defence of course goes to case, the defence by yes, well, er I follow that, but I'm sorry I put it rather badly Mr forgive me, part of your defence against the claim by er relates to erm these agreements, you must say that these agreements erm because they are of the standard form are anti competitive and therefore they or part of them are void, erm building on that presumably your defence says or employs er that because erm, you know there void, I dunno perhaps you can tell me this erm, all, all the er all parts of the void, all the power of the agent, the agreements with regard to premium trust funds and the like, er are also unenforceable as between er the erm name and his er members agent, erm and in consequence of that you say, as I understand it, er that that is, all that cause be lost which you can neither set up as a defence to claim under the central bi-law or at least as a set up or counterclaim, I just wanted to explore this aspect of it, erm, as to the consequences of your plea, does it mean that clause nine is put on one side wholly or to an extent in the latter case to what extent? Robert this, this presumably implies that the agent is suing the name erm well it doesn't necessary apply that the agent is suing the name, the question is whether, what any right the agent has got, er the fact of the matter is as I understand it and tell me if I'm wrong, that your client has erm received a demand under clause nine er, er which he has failed to comply, I think that must follow because er if he had complied with it, then that would never of got as far as the central fund of yes, I think it must be yes erm but really the question is was he legally obliged to comply within? well look erm, my Lord the fact that, I, I think the answer would go like this, that, if the agent had sued the name then the defence would of been similar to that which is raised here, erm, but it would probably, it would of had additional elements because the name would have been enforcing through a, a, a slightly a slightly different mm but similar change of causation, restrictions imposed by of which they are members and which they are party and we would say we had the same defence to the extent that they had written business which would not of been risen if the restrictions had not been made mm but putting, cos they thought well I mean the, the agent hasn't or hasn't yet sued, but I wasn't really putting it like that, I was asking you whether it is your case as in presently stand looking at the defence you've raised to whether or not you have failed to perform your legal obligations under clause nine. Er, er my understanding to, to er about five minutes ago was that you were saying we have not failed to perform our legal obligations under clause nine, because clause nine er is either wholly or to be extent that it relates to the underwriting which we disapprove partially invalid out of being part of the erm, the anti competitive of erm the argument you're pursuing. well, my Lord I think that follows from my previous answer that yeah had they been suing then that would of been met with a defence er counter claim settle and so on, erm and that would of been the answer that you can't enforce the claim under clause nine because it's void, we didn't, we therefore can't, there's no duty to keep the agent in funds, sue it to clause nine, it been a void clause yes I think the answer is that simply as it who were doing what the name would otherwise have done, erm for the reasons your Lordship has given and, and your Lordship has seen of course that the analysis of the relationship between the name and the agent, erm, certainly as far as Mr is concerned, indeed we said it certainly it follows from what, what article eighty five does, it doesn't effect the extensible authority point but and the yeah, no, not that we come back to that in a moment or to, I'm just trying to see where this leads us though Mr , erm as a matter of legal analysis, erm y-y-y- your complaint, one particular one we're talking about is that erm these standard, these are standard degrees which offend the competition rules now if it, if that's right would not the consequence by erm across the ball, you're saying you only, you only would render them invalid in so far as they happen to do any, happened to have done any particular name of, er that, I can't think, it didn't seem to be in any of the erm cases we've looked at where the competition rules were applied, but that was a necessary condition if, if, if it's that if it's void, if people have suffered a loss as a result of it they can recover a lost, you don't have to show a loss do you in order to, to, to be declared void there are, there are cases in which the exercise, well if, if, I think we can start with a right, the exercises were right, erm, if, for example the cases who simply that I refer to in relation mm to bringing the claim, if it is pursued, the claim maybe good, it maybe bad and it depends upon the circumstances of the underline agreement, that's one example where something maybe good or it maybe bad, it's like an intellectual property ride, depending on how you exercise the right, it maybe good or it maybe bad, if you use it to block parallel imports or for some anti competitive purpose then it may be bad, erm it, it's not necessarily the case that if you have a clause in the contract it is always in every circumstance bad, where the clause itself allows the undertaking concerned, to exercise it in a particular way, now, erm so so that as a matter of principal not all clauses could be automatically said in a standard form contract to be good or bad and it may depend upon how they are to exercise in a particular way, what we have said is the, the, erm, the provision in on, on the, the unfettable authority, er, erm and powers of the agent, erm is void it would depend upon the facts of each individual case whether or not every other restriction as your Lordships seen again only through and the cases they side, erm that other provisions in a standard form contract may on the facts be had, it depends upon the significance of the particular clause in the circumstances, my Lord in, in answer to your Lordships question, I don't think it necessary follows that every clause is bad, but we do say it depends upon the facts and we have pleaded that not all loss might be erm defensible against. So, if erm so your, your, your principal complaint, I maybe wrong it maybe not your principal, look at page a hundred and twenty seven for your assistance, erm standard form of agreements restricted competitions, the service of the petitions or the agents provided so this is names and thereby restrict the competition as the agents them say erm then impose on that it was a regime etcetera, erm that the, the competitive the anti competitive one is your sub paragraph one isn't it?, on page one, two, seven your saying look here is a of, of dictated through their bi-laws, a standard form that all agents must use,you say, erm, er that that restricts competition because it means that agents are free, or as free as they ought to be, erm to compete with each other or providing services to outside names, I follow that, I didn't say I except it, but I follow that entirely, erm, but doesn't, doesn't, if you're right doesn't it follow that the agreements are void? My Lord er, can I, there's, there's a quali qualified yes to that, yes if on analysis all the clauses are important secondary aspects of competition and if so then all of those clauses are void yes and then one says applying the test of severance, er is there a, is there a residual agreement to be enforced, the answer maybe yes it maybe no but doesn't that bring us back you see to clause nine, erm, is, is, is that a clause which erm which you're, you're suggesting is anti competitive because er agents might compete with er each other as to what if any funds they might want to pull down, or my Lord I, I suppose the answer to that is yes, it could be on the facts, it could be that if there was in a free market then they'd be all sorts of varieties of clause whereby the name and kept the agent funds, erm maybe yes they'd be all sorts of ways in which they could of kept the agented funds, erm they could of been, but it's hard to imagine that, that mm, mm the laws of that could of been an important element of competition so it follows that there is at least a risk that clause nine will be struck down on your defence my Lord I think the, the answer to that is, is yes there is yes that risk so then if we go back to the beginning of this discussion Mr , it must follow must it not that there is a risk, clause nine is inaccurable so as far as all names are Yes well my Lord, the person behind me is saying yes, I'm just trying to think with the consequence not quite don't be don't necessary be influenced by those at although no doubt they are doing the best they can for you Mr , erm, but I mean that's why, that's what I was putting to you at the beginning. My Lord the, the answer must be yes yes I mean if it's then it's the end to the clause, erm, er but then, is, does it not, the next point then does not er what Mr say have relevant cause, because if there is this risk which in the purposes of the argument rule, start if you like as a wheel and not a, a, a, a, a fanciful risk, the reasons yourself just put forward, er then it must follow that there is a risk, er that erm the members agents will not be able to call on names to provide the funds oh well that maybe true and of course sir, er, that, that makes the question both of the obstantial authority and the member state responsibility under article ten of the nineteen seventy yeah be directed but if that er risk was a material risk, what effect do you think it would have on the market? my Lord I'm not really an insurance expert and I wouldn't like to speculate, my Lord it's entirely possible that, that erm the but you're, you're been described as a, as a, as likely in the ordinary course of things to have a benign effect would it? well no but competition my Lord, the, the fact that the competition rule applies, I don't think it's straight clauses, my Lord corporate capital is now flowing into the existing is being and er it wouldn't be calculated to provide the erm, those people who have er policies at with er particular confidence would it?, and it wouldn't be calculated to assist in questions of er solvency and the like er which on any of you are all er considerable importance to the er European community. My Lord first it was always open to to notify and eradicate this problem entirely, secondly there's the European court make clear the V D S, these sorts of consideration however valid do not of any circumstances provide exemption from the competition which have different objectives and names mm now if have infringed the competition rules, then the fact that the consequences maybe significant severe for them, is, is irrelevant, erm it was significant for the but it's not it's not them, it's not Belgium police officers them so much that I'm worried about it's the policy holders which I Mr well my Lord previous policy, pass policy holders have been paid, all have to do in relation to the future is very rapidly notify their arrangements, if they get clearance they can then get exemption from the data notification back dated and the problems for the future are resolved. And that of course sets aside the mm the sums in the premiums trust fund, it's a very simple answer my Lord to notify now in the same way the commission suggested that they should notify some ten years ago of course that wouldn't help would it on the er great mass of er policies that have presently been written in respect of which claims are likely to be received over the next fifteen to twenty years be included so help well my Lord certain believers well certainly that may give rise to problems, erm, and then one may have to resolve those on the basis of the ostensible authority or even claims against the member of state under article ten of the directive, but, however, erm, on, on satisfactory or confusing to the market that might be mm it is not the Armageddon situation that suggest. have it within their power to resolve the matter very speedily by going to the commission and providing full notification, even if they have to negotiate with the commission over provisions which the submission was moved, then they can get that exemption back dated and, and back dated to the date date of notification of notification yes. I ask these questions because of course article five of the treaty of Rome basis a burden on this court, it doesn't er create rights in itself, I think everyone agrees with this, but it certainly er imposes a duty on this court erm to apply with er community laws, purposes and principals and I'm wondering whether erm, that, that is why I'm looking at the possible consequences of this er the inter relationship between the, for example, the directive and article eighty five, er and bearing in mind as I said to Mr the other day, the consequences erm of er these fees what, with respect article five encloses upon your Lordship obligation to enforce the competition of the source yes, it also er imposes on me the obligation of course erm under G of article three doesn't it?which I imagine, but you can tell me if I'm wrong Mr is the one, is probably the one article erm, part of the article under which such things is the insurance directive is er produced, but I maybe wrong my Lord I, I think what the, the insurance directive is brought under erm enforced proceeding one is it? C three C, the abolition of course freedom for movement for services and that is implemented in article fifty er yes you're probably to establish them you're probably right, but the point remains of course and I have to have my Lord I have to have in mind of course some, not just F, not also correctively now C my Lord er C is the freedom of services mm erm my Lord let me deal with G first cos I, as well I, I think I'll take agree Mr you know much more about these matters than I do, I just, my eye just lit upon that one I thought that would perhaps the one in which the insurance directive could be said to be attached, but if you've told me it's C I'm perfectly happy to accept it as being C. my Lord I think, I think your Lordship will find that it's erm the reference in the first paragraph of directive, the first, it's sort of the first part of number fifty four yes erm and that, that brings it into establishment yes, well er I be of the greater but er the point were made my Lord G is the E R N, I mean it is central government monitory policy yes alright well let's leave that one and let's see and I stand corrected, but my point remains the same if er, erm, er my duty under article five is not to find to the anti competition laws is it? your, your duty under article five is to be guided by the European court and indeed yes the competition law takes precedence over consideration of solvency and protection of policy holders, these are matters which can be reconciled under article eighty five three, not eighty five one mm and with respect your Lordship doesn't have the er and I'm sure this will not be disputed, your Lordship doesn't have the erm jurisdiction to grant the exemption under article eighty five three only the commission in doing that which I wasn't suggesting I could, no The have had er a long grade of time since the complaint was put to the commission, to put a notification in if they wanted to protect their position, but still they could of done so on, on a precautionary basis, and without prejudice basis they have not done so, a longer standing commissioner had invited them to do so ten years ago, they could do so this week on without prejudice basis and that may erm lead to security in the future that they now seek yes anyway we were talking about Mr Armageddon, erm, were not my Lord, huh, my Lord that, let me point I was thinking because I not I can't remember if actually using that phrase, maybe used somewhere not my phrase my Lord but er a slight high in relation to what he was saying mm I think that our description of what he was in effect saying, my Lord we were simply pointing out that the reference to the accounts could not be viewed accurately without viewing the statutory statement of business which filed only just a month or so back reveals a sixteen and a half billion surplus in the members premium trust fund up from twelve and a half billion at the end of proceeding year. My Lord can I just turn to my yes my Lord er, to only just final conclusions my Lord the first conclusion is that nothing in community law, nothing in the directives in the insurance companies act can be pointed to by which grants powers to them to regulate the insurance markets. They have subject limited statutory duties in the insurance companies act, but the fact they're subjected to duties in the same way that the underwriters, the underwriters are subject to duties does not make them regulators, but in any event even if we were wrong on that there is no exemption under article eighty five, one for regulators and, and your Lordship has seen a number of cases and I shan't go back to them is fully subject to the competition rules whether as a regulator or not. have held lengthy dialogue with the commission, no formal clearance what so ever has even been given commission suggested and encouraged to notify, but they did not, they had the opportunity to do so, they declined it, one might say is a market of risk takers, this is a risk that they took. mm, mm That is quite true, yeah, point is clear, erm point three activities when, er activities er in the context of bringing action forward in article eighty five, one. In principal as the numerous authorities up to my Lordship to yesterday demonstrate and the reference are er an action which and there are four ways in which the cases described it, an action which er is the object of an agreement or er the means of an agreement or don't actually, don't actually directly say that the central bi-law is is anti competitive do you or do you? my Lord we have said in a number of places the claims are erm unlawful and we refer to the fact that the claims come out of the central fund bi-law er can you just stop me on that my Lord yes if put, put sample in, in er er at paragraph erm we said that it could be, we referred to paragraph two, two, three, this is the third paragraph I've turn up on page a hundred and thirty six on claim sees to recover and then we say the premises, the claim is unlawful as being in breach of article eighty five, alternatively, unlawful in seeking to enforce agreements sorry I've lost, er lost you page a hundred and thirty six, paragraph two, two, three er, oh yeah my Lord this is er, mason, and the claim of course being based upon the certain yes bi-law but the bi-law itself, I mean there, there, there, there's nothing wrong, there'll be nothing wrong in your saying with the erm, what is article ten, erm, if erm but with this connection which you say exists between what they're calling for you to provide, erm and erm er what, oh sorry start again, you're saying the claims unlawful because they're seeking by er the central fund bi-law to recover sums that have been paused by their breaches of the my Lord yes community law, other breaches my Lord, yes so, per saying, there's nothing wrong with central and fund bi-laws per say, nothing wrong with central and fund bi-laws as a mechanism and it's the exercise of that in these particular circumstances which is unlawful and, and we have pleaded, just erm yes page a hundred and thirty two, para two twenty eleven in broad er we, we've put in purposely er sweeping up provision in our catalogue of restrictions, erm which simply says all bylaws and other regulations may be pursuant to the acts and all agreements made pursuant to the bi-laws which reinforce or implement any of the above restrictions yes yes and that was really a generic way, but then we refer to the point of claims of course based upon the bi-laws yes well so that's how it's pleaded and that's how we built it into the, these cases which I was referring to where an agreement is the object or the, the means or the consequence of an agreement, they enforce within five, the action is unlawful and of course there's the final and fourth way in which it could be devoured this, because it, and again quoting the words from the cases, tends to have restricted affect on the market, I think your Lordship you can see how we pleaded it in paragraph two, two, three, it's enforcing the consequence of the unlawful underline previous. yes Well the, the fourth point in relation to er we say that the point has been fully pleaded, corsation is a question of fact, the, er, it's not an issue which we say arises on these preliminary issues and can raise it er under order eighteen, rule nineteen, if they so wish, that is traditionally the places where it seems nexus points arise erm and they will put in, er app , we will put in, the defendants will put in appropriate evidence at that point, depending upon whether the, the strike out allows evidence and how they frame their strike out, but the nexus point is fully pleaded, we set out step by step and in relation to er restrictions how they were caused the loss, my Lord at that point, at this point we believe that's all we have to do and certainly we believe that it be sufficient to get over a strike out yes my Lord the fifth point in relation to question three, C, we've always understood this to be a threshold bond, we've concentrated on the words capable in law in relation to section fourteen, there are two ways of viewing this and your Lordship will clearly have to take a view on whether er one or both of these is a proper issue under clause three, C one, first of all is, is, is section fourteen itself capable of restricting the competition, is it in itself a restriction of competition, well we took your Lordship the C B R case, the case of the commission in which an ouster clause was held to infringe article eighty five, because of it's interrelationship with the other restrictions and so section fourteen is bad if the other restrictions are made out as a matter of competition law, that we say is a question of fact and we therefore answer that part of three C by saying it's not capable in law you, you, yesterday you said you don't say that in the absence of restrictions the immunity is heard no my Lord we, we, we, we pin section fourteen to those restriction, whenever a restriction arises yes erm, and, and, it could arise in many different circumstances, erm one can imagine a situation which wrongly expel erm a name from the market, well whatever the motives, that clearly distorts competition cos there's one rule, one less competitor in the market, erm it, it's con , it, it's conceivable that an article eighty five argument could arise and an expel name could raise a point, whether he succeeds is another matter, but at that point and, and in relation to that he may say well I can sue you because you've excluded me you've restricted competition or you've excluded a group of names mm erm and, and the market is being badly hit as a result of this, now we've a specialist in a certain type of business that leaves the market free for another syndicate and they've now picked up all the juicy business yeah I understand that, but when you use the phrase itself as a competition, that erm, that didn't seem quite square with what we were saying yesterday what, well my Lord when you said I do not say in the absence yes restriction of amenities varied well my Lord let me clarify and be quite clear you're, you're not saying that it, it, it, it is simply to be struck down without reference to any under lying no my Lord I'm not saying restrictions no, well I'd rather I did if there are if there are other restrictions then I say section fourteen is automatically void in it's entirety because it reinforces, it has to be independent effect of reinforcing the other restrictions it stands behind them boosting them on yes and, and in that case it does have an independent effect, it's an incremental effect upon the restrictiveness and that makes it bad in itself yes and that's why will it be completely void or void in so far as it be more to the point no completely void because you can't severe the good from the bad in section fourteen, your Lordship couldn't take a blue pencil and, and, and find some words in section fourteen which say erm, you know, I can take out an article eighty five claim or I can allow an article eighty five claim but I can leave something else in coul couldn't you say that a matter of community law erm er simply a, a, a prohibition of that kind of er just has no effect just as far as erm any brief community Lord er, er under article eigh law or the treat is concerned no my Lord, no, not under article eighty five, and article eighty five and sub paragraph two mm is automatically void and it is then a pure question of severance as to whether or not yes one can leave extant a valid clause or some yes part of that section is valid, and we say and we pleaded that it's not so forth yes er so, so if you're writing your arguments then er says no immunity in, in respect of any proceedings it goes completely of any nature it goes completely yes I see that of course until they notify and get it exempted which is always opened to do it's always been opened of course to notify an answer when they get a bit of clearance should of been yes if we went to that, who, what, what, which was the case which dealt with the erm one arm satisfactory appeal procedure or, or that C B R can you give me the case reference? yes my Lord it's, it's paragraph twenty eight of the commissions decision and what what you're just trying to complicate reference my Lord yes I'm just trying to find the my Lord it's er tab thirty six of the defendants authority the defendants, defendants yeah defendants list of authority, tab thirty six and I think it's paragraph twenty eight yes well then of course erm for your Lordships notes that you ought to remember V E X where there was an immunity from national competition law which they were saying oh well we've got this immunity under national insurance law and national competition law mm and erm article eighty five can't interfere and the court said, who, of course they can yes but the second way in which section fourteen arises is this slightly more oblique way, erm, it's, it's not really the question of competition law it's more a question of administrative law or constitutional law, erm whether it arises on the question er, your Lordship will have to decide, but, if, if it does then we believe that our case is extremely strong, because what one is saying here is, is section fourteen a block to an article eighty five action, erm does it make it either virtually impossible or something lesser excessively difficult, er and we say er that that's one aspect and two can we show it's discriminatory, well we say first of all it is discriminatory because even on analysis of the bad faith argument they are putting in a claimant with an article eighty five case to an extraordinary length in order to make good his case, he first of all has to super declaration presumably that he is entitled to damages, but he can't get damages all he's entitled to is the declaration if then don't satisfy that claim by paying up and their not going to be ordered by the court to pay up because that's a claim for damages and you can't have that then you have to sue them again on the basis of breach of bad faith, er no other provision in English law would go to that effect and that of course even, even that assumes whether rightly or wrongly and we say possibly wrongly that er, er the failure to comply with the judgment of the declaration would be bad faith within the meaning of the act, but even assuming it's right it puts a plaintiff suing for breach of article eighty five in the worst position possible mm certainly in a far worse position than any other English claimant alleging erm any of the courses of action which are permitted as an exception to section fourteen yes and secondly we say that er we're setting aside the question of discrimination primary basis section fourteen is an absolute block on it and you can't have it more complete er, er undermining of article eighty five and again even if the bad faith point arises, er simply makes it and we say quite clearly excessively difficult to enforce article eighty five yeah well that's section three C one yeah question, issue three C two and three er we say that in relation to two as a matter of have categorize this as a question of law we say it probably categories a question of fact because if they're right in there analysis of law and article eighty directive, all it means is, is that there is no market outside and that the restriction is insignificant if that being so one would answer the question, is not capable as a matter of pure law of infringing article eighty five, but in the light of the discussion yesterday afternoon of course when my learned friend comes to apply for this strike out, we may have difficulty in contesting that provision it's not, not er, a, a major part of our case that we, we would have to re-consider it and, and I did ask your Lordship erm if your Lordship would minded to find otherwise not to block out at least the possibility of application for leave to amend and of course we'd have to make, have to consider whether we could make a proper case out of it on what we do yes well in relation to the standard form contract there are cases er based upon prim er primarily article eighty five, one A which says agreements fixing terms and conditions, for with in article eighty five, it's based upon the facts that the, the, the decisions of the commission and the court, say that elements of secondary competition can be restricted and here we have a standard form contract which restricts all elements of secondary competition yes not price er, this is not of, this is not of the point, in fact it's on it, it's a point which I asked you before and er it concerned, I think it's the same case as the one we've just been mentioning the, with the commission of objecting to erm appeal procedures on the grounds they are unfair, is that, that's the same one isn't it?, let me just perhaps look at it my Lord I don't think that was a, I think that was the, the case or the case no, er it could be the yeah, but it is the case, yes, which one is that? that I think is, it's about tab thirty is it exists tab thirty nine my Lord Thirty nine defendants bundle yes that's quite, that's the on , that's the one, it's the fourth page in, I haven't got page numbers, but it's the last paragraph on the page of the paragraph for the publication do you know the page? my Lord yes it's the paragraph above, this is still rather puzzling me erm the commission were concerned because there could be what one could describe as arbitrary and unfair, rejections of application for membership is, is that your reading of it? well yes and therefore they wanted the appeal procedure, erm to make it fair I'm not trying to put words in your mouth but that, term, to eradicate the possibility that someone could be able to exclude it from the market unjustifiably you mean for no, yeah for no reason for no reason, yes and whether one calls it fair and objective argument now I did ask you this before and still puzzling me, where, where does this fit in to article eighty five? well erm there, there are very few cases in which the European commission or the court talk about fairness erm, when but, but, but no, no, well, well well let's use your language erm a non arbitr , well let's use their language, objective criteria on which it's judge application to the membership, erm, and I'm only, I'm only imagining this, but I'm, but as a matter of common sense one would of thought that one wouldn't like subjective or arbitrary and er indeed unknown criteria to apply erm, as, as in my point of view, as a matter of fairness, but er my question is and it was before and I, I'm not sure I hoist in your answer, where, where does that fit in to article eighty five?, I'm not saying it doesn't, but where does, does it, well it obviously does, but where does it fit in? well, here, I think it fitted in, I think it was this way, it's a little bit difficult to see from the decision itself, erm this do , when these were notified there were provisions in it for example in relation to admission and expulsion, which the commission objected to and erm, I think one can summarize that this must of happen, the commission said to the marketing question if you don't remove this restriction or if you don't erm eradicate what we see as the arbitrary element of mm we will not give you exemption no I, I'm pretty sure that that's what they were saying, yes and they said if we, in turn, as it stands we could never give you exemption and therefore the only thing is to render it completely enoxious and then we can give you negative clearance because it will have no impact upon competition I, I don't know what the opposite of enoxious is er enoxious let's assume it's noxious it's noxious er, erm, obviously the commission felt it was er, it was funny, unacceptable if you didn't have erm for example objective criteria by which to judge applications to membership, now I can understand this a fairly proposition of fairness, but where does it fit in to article eighty five? my Lord, my Lord er unless I've miss understood your Lordship it fits in the sense that if you think that unreasonably or even unfairly disclude someone from the market, you're are excluding someone who would compete in the market, you're taking someone out who may of had an impact on the market, may of brought prices down, offer better terms and conditions yes, yes but so you are that's how it's effected if you exclude somebody on objective criteria well then my Lord ah my Lord not all objective criteria and this I think is very important because you can have objective criterias as I, as I submitted last week that would be erm in order to trade in this market you must have capital of twenty million pounds and ten years experience, but that's uniform rule, it doesn't discriminate it's objective, but it would be anti competitive because here you are setting up the most important market er in this, erm as they say in Europe for the project futures market and you're excluding people who could be in there trading and who could be effecting the market and that, that would be because your, your twenty million pounds in it has really got no erm, had got no independent justification on arbitrary limiting a number of people able to compete, but what, what if you're able to satisfy everybody that you had to have some pay out capital, twenty million is ridiculous my Lord yes but er ten thousand pounds yes erm simply because erm the later in the market it was obviously important that erm people had some substance all be it very small er the minimum necessary the, the minimum necessary my Lord then all, what, then, was not restricting competition because the people you have excluded are not people who would be in the market in any event, you are already saying we've got the level of the, the, the hurdle, the wall or the barrier to such a low level that anybody who's outside it, it is simply not a competitor, we've got everybody in the market who could conceivably deserve to be there, but there's no restriction, no you maybe excluding criminals or fraudsters for a, until they've been re rehabilitated, er and you're excluding people who simply do not deserve to be there as competitors at all, but no capability of right to compete and that's why there is no restriction, everybody is in the charm circle who wants to be there and is capable of competing and that's what the commission are trying to get the rules down to, making sure that no one is outside of the wall who should be inside of the wall and that's why of course at the end of the day they can give their clearances, there's no restriction. My Lord I, I hope that you The other way of looking at it is, is to say that there, I mean there is a restriction and of course the membership is restricted, people who can put up ten thousand pounds, but erm, that is an entirely fair and reasonable restriction in all the circumstances and therefore come in more clear my Lord I don't think that's different, erm it's not the restriction, one saying that the res the, the, it's not restricting competition it's simply an entry condition, but it doesn't have the effect of taking anybody outside of the market who should be there mm and, and, er of course that the commission looked at this as er, er, as a question to be looked at in the context of the market and of all facts, but they said you, if you want restrictions you can be sure that we won't give you any exemption for them, so you'd better remove every single solitary objection,objec er restriction that we identify, that's why at the end of the day they got er, it was a very, very strict approach by the commission, you can have nothing which is acceptable, you can get negative clearance but you've got to be cleaner than clean, whiter than white, so remove every possible restriction. So you're saying, you're saying it's a case where erm if the criteria are reasonable in the sense of being required for the what proper operation of market or something like that? that er, we applied for test of proportionality, the minimum necessary, my Lord this is a, your Lordship's focus on admission rules which of course different to what we're concerned with here, admission to the market, erm, and it, it is the minimum necessary to ensure that all those who should be in the market and are capable of competing are in the market. Well, you see a person without ten thousand pounds is such capable of er, capable of competing my Lord I don't know if it was ten thousand pounds no, or whatever it is, I mean erm my Lord there may not be er if you've got no money to do anything with or no money to, to, to operate in even if the, remotely vaguely efficient way, that you, how can be said you'll capable of competing mm it's a pity we don't know what the I suppose we can find out, what the er what the London's future, future market membership requirements are it doesn't help, but there's nothing erm my Lord that, that all these decisions the decision are very brief and there, there, there commission have done almost pro forma, but er, well of course I mean a, erm, erm I just certain, satisfy certain erm cattle requirements and carry on business in the sugar trade and of must done so for a period of time, I'm looking at this, the third page in, top of the page, erm trade in office in London established without purpose erm now those the of course we don't know what, as your Lordship says we don't know as a matter of fact what the, the height of the well it it says or what the bracket is facts, well no, yeah but we, I think we know what the, the new wall is, facts eight paragraph above eight paragraph above it looks as though it the bottom of the second page er first page mm that seems to set out, that seems to give the details of er my Lord that these of course are just for the mm the headings as to what the rules, membership rules were, they don't say the content of the rules erm well, the, I think it tells you a bit doesn't it?, it means yeah, er very little mini , there's a minimum capital requirement, they've gotta of been carry on business as a former yes and they've gotta have a trade from an office in London yes erm, so those are the three, those are the three criteria's my Lord, I, my Lord I do recall about five years ago I, remember advising one of the future's markets and see come to the life of me remember what was in them no but they were enormous, they were, they were very substantial, but, erm, well I, I think that the point here is that one can have a minimum requirement, but depending upon the facts and the circumstances and the nature of the market, so on and so forth, well they have, the commission said, you can have no restrictions at all cos we're not going to give you exemption, so you'd better make sure that they are the absolutely bear minimum that are necessary to ensure that every person capable of competing can get into the market. My Lord erm, er one can't of course draw conclusions from one market to the next, they are all different certainly is a self regulatory market is different from a futures market mm erm, but, it, it does come to a question of fact and of course we don't know what was in the notification, what information the er, the market administrator's, supervisors, er gave to the commission about the market and the market shares, er very little is actually stated in the mm I know about the actual market. yes the, the commission doesn't seemed to of addressed itself to, to, the only question it seemed to of addressed itself to are whether the criteria objective, erm, that there could be reasons when it takes decisions and erm there should be an appeal procedure my Lord I, I think it takes the view and probably not unreasonably that assuming good faith on the part of the disciplinary tribunal and assuming that there is er review by the courts, you will have complete objectivity and someone who has been excluded for a good reason, maybe fraud or something of that nature should not be competing in the first place, but he will not be excluded unreasonably and therefore if he was excluded unreasonably erm the fact of he's exclusion could be anti competitive because it takes out of the market a player mm and so provided that there's proper procedures, I mean I don't suppose the commission wanted to actually act as a, a review body for every person excluded from the market in Europe, and so they said well one's got to have a certain faith in the national courts as being an independent review, and such as that person is excluded from the market there must be a very good reason and he was an a competitor yes therefore no restriction of competition erm, what is this commission,w ,w is this a my Lord this is, this is a proper commission decision unfortunately erm but I mean what is, is it an exclude or a negative it's a negative clearance negative clearance, yes my Lord that's why we say it was so strict, the commission said you're not getting exemption you have to remove everything from the market mm yes every, every restriction out must go and then we'll give you clearance when it's entirely innocuous or when, the clauses So there we have, the still remain uncertain as to, as to what part of er article eighty five they receive to apply my Lord I think it can only be and, and you're doing your best to try I know huh, my Lord there are two, there are two ways you could look at it, either, either you could say, you could say yes or, in, in one sentence if you have any barrs on membership at all you are preventing competition, but that would be er a highly unreal statement to make, erm, and what you're, what you're saying is that if you look at it that way, the prevention restriction or distortion of competition must be some er malign or bad prevention restriction or distortion and er there's nothing bad about having objective criteria which would indeed erm prevent erm these people from competing cos they can't get into this, into the sugar market, er it will prevent them from competing in the sugar market, but that's not the sort of prevention article eighty five is talking about. could er, I don't think that can be right because had that been right, had the commission been saying you've got restrictions but there not malign, then we'll be given you exemption, they would of said you've got restrictions but you've justified them mm if they're saying there are no restrictions, cos they cannot, they simply cannot give there good clearance if there was something which is something of a restriction of competition, they must give exemption, they have no jurisdiction to do anything else, if they look at a clause and say well er, I, I, no, that's, that's, that's not what I was saying, I was saying article eighty five then concerned with, what one could describe as a malign or bad prevention, restriction or distortion my Lord my Lord I don't understand what's supposed to be meant by malign or bad, it's concerned with appreciable and appreciable and er something which has an appreciable or a more audane minimize impact upon the competition if it arise erm here perhaps because it, it is er a question of fairness but not normally well er let me put it this way, if there, if there is good reason, good objective reason for preventing a person competing in the sugar market then article eighty five doesn't follow my Lord, no, er if you have a good reason for preventing someone who is capable of being a competitor, eighty five applies but you can only exempt, if you've got a good reason for preventing someone who is incapable of being a competitor then eighty five one is inapplicable. You can't have a restriction of competition which falls outside of eighty five, one, it can be exempted. so you say it must be implicit in that decision that the, the commission was satisfied that the objective criteria er would separate the sheep from the goats, erm so that no one who would, would be excluded who was capable of competing my Lord that, that must be right because that would only be the way in which they could give negative clearance, because the clause or the membership rules were inappreciable mm, mm no I see that my Lord in a, in a sense that right at the very last page when they say a notified articles association, rules and regulations in there amended form no longer contain any clauses which constitute appreciable restrictions yes, negative terms comes I'm sorry, you did tell me, from which article? from eighty five, one itself, it's dec it's negative clearance a decision from the commission that you don't fall within eighty five at all and that, that in term comes from which article?, who told the commission being given the right to make such a decision? they, they have that power and er, erm article three I think regulation seventeen or er article erm, it's article two or three regulation, article two of regulation, seventeen of nineteen sixty two, you can apply to the commission for negative appearance sorry article two, of regulation seventeen, perhaps I'd just give you the reference in er I'm sure it must be there, page, page twelve, one, one is regulation seventeen yes er yes negative negative clearance article two, page twelve, twelve and yes, well thank you, thank you, it's a rather a, a slight discretion and that you for those information and we're on, on erm C three, C three C C three C yes erm my Lord with regards to contract in general terms it's referred to in article eighty five one A, it's a an agreement as to terms and conditions, this standard form contract harmonizes all elements of secondary competition er I'm sorry what do you mean by that please?, harmonizes all, all erm anything other than price if you like oh I'm so sorry, yes, yes of course my Lord report, paragraphs seven twelve and two eleven, erm refer to the competition rules and indeed explicitly excepts that a curtailing of some competition in this area is in, in, in his view at least and the reports view, a good thing to protect solvency, protect policy holders and again we simply said to that V D S, fine, yes it goes to exemption, but it doesn't get you outside the competition rules. yes My Lord point eight, erm, the evidence it all goes to insurance points, solvency and protection of policy holders and in that regard two points, first of all why one can simply say V D S, secondly all their justifications, even if it's true, the answer is V D S, but in any event they must sure even if, even if V D S was wrong in some way, they would have to show that the restrictions were the minimum necessary in order to achieve those legitimate policy objectives yes and if they were disproportion or, or were excess in that regard they would fall within eighty five, one. My Lord, erm those are, those are my submissions my Lord, I was going to say something about my learned friends somewhat unusual request to your Lordship to make disparaging comments in judgment about the defendants case, my learned friend wishes to make disparaging comments we save a proper place for those in his submissions when he comes to apply to strike out, or say anything about that, erm, my Lord erm perhaps erm as a, as a final point, erm Mr Bernard after having reviewed a piano recital once wrote, the only thing he enjoyed more than this directive performance was having his teeth pulled, I think your Lordship has not found that the last five and a half days are equally an under defended experience in relation to, to this mornings sir activity yes, erm unless I can assist your Lordship further no, er, I, I, I rather, I stopped you Mr yesterday morning when you were about to engage on a exercise of saying where do we go from here yes my Lord on the grounds that until I knew where I'd got to yes my Lord erm, erm it might not be erm particularly helpful, but having thought about it again I, I quite like you, in, at least in broad outline er to hear what you have to say on the aspect orusese gnitteg ton er'uoy dias yes my Lord I'm sorry about that, it really is more of a second thought, although I don't want to go into any detail and I'd like, like any broad that you have to be in my mind in this case at least could I just get my notes together? yes of course my Lord if I, while my learned friend is, is well my what position is Mr ? Mr erm, my Lord I'm not certain I can wear Mr hat on this one no, no, no, I didn't mean you, you working for Mr what, what about him generally? I think er that Mr is er Mr er suggestion is that in order to erm expedite matters he would be willing to, to submit his sort of comments, brief comment in writing and hopefully if Mr could fit in a quarter of an hour sometime on Friday I think that's gonna be erm asking to much Mr because we haven't er beginning to loom very close you know erm yeah but he wondered if just that a short period of time could just get your Lordship a question of well this case I'm afraid doesn't lend itself to short entirely impossible, er Mr maybe have to say erm will lead to the questions and then for example spent er a long time on questions this afternoon that I've had for you Mr er my Lord, yes erm and it would be quite unfair erm mm to try and repeat that well he's not available tomorrow then? well he, he, he might be, I mean if it mm I don't think Mr available in the morning, Mr got lots I'm, I'm available about eleven fifteen my Lord yes I could make it eleven o'clock if necessary well I don't mind too much because I can erm, I can always be getting on with erm, the, the erm judgment on the, on the, the other issues, erm er my Lord which I haven't yet got on to cos I wanted to hear most, at least most of the arguments on this aspect of the case, although it's got very in effect very little to do with the other, other, but it doesn't see round, er I could get on with that to a degree, er, so I don't mind too much, but I think Friday is, is asking to much from Mr my Lord may, may well be right, would, would the best thing be for simply er for Mr clerk to get in contact with your clerk and to try and arrange er with all the other clerks to try and arrange a system, mutually convenient time in the nearest possible future well I, I mean we cannot leave it lying around, erm do you know what Mr position is on Monday? yes he starts a brand new trial, he starts a new trial mm would er, the most sensible thing be to use tomorrow and er my tomorrow is, is possible, but I just have a mm an engagement very first thing in the morning, my Lord but Mr suggested, he goes upstairs and tries to find a, finds a well, well thank Mr very much, if you, if you could, I can accommodate Mr at any reasonable time tomorrow, erm, but although he may say he's only got, he only wants to rest for a quarter of an hour d'your, as you gather from the interchange from the bench, that's er, that will be the very minimum and I may well have questions to ask him, although I hope I'd asked most of them to Mr , so, erm, but I'm, I'm I think for everybody's convenience it, erm, unless he's got a specific time he could deal with, we either start say at eleven thirty, when Mr can be here or at two, erm, but if he's got some other clever idea I'm perfectly prepared to entertain him, but er we can't leave this hanging around, I've gotta write this and whichever way it goes we've gotta look at it again, er and although I suppose I'm not entirely unheard of and I disappear to the court of appeal next term it's gonna make things extremely awkward to try and arrange anything else next term, cos I've got two other judges to bear in mind as well as myself it maybe my Lord that there's a judge upstairs better not to sit tomorrow afternoon but to sit on Friday yes, er who, who is the judge upstairs? it's justice yes, but er I think it maybe a deputy judge I think as well mm see what you can find out Mr thank you very much. Erm, yes have you managed to gather your er notes Er no my Lord perhaps I was, I was thinking about time to let me just sort out would you like, would you like to hear what I have to say on that one Mr er do you want? erm, well I think probably better, better for everybody to, to hear what he has to say well if by way of suggestions, in, no, in a way because they are the plaintiffs mm, mm erm, and erm oh yes I think you'd probably find it easier to, rather than trying to make submissions to yes my Lord er as indicated to your Lordship yesterday, erm, er the primary position of er is that these issues can be decided and should be decided that in the manner that I've submitted to your Lordship, er and in the societies favour. In the event my Lord, erm, that er your Lordship felt that further guidance was required, there are the two routes that I've indicated to your Lordship briefly yesterday, there is the route of er seeking some information, if your Lordship felt it'd be of assistance to you in resolving any doubts that you may have from the and your Lordship has seen yesterday the notice on co-operation which is in and at page eleven thirty two and is also the exhibit yeah to Mrs affidavit S K R four and I also took you to their limities in relation to that. Your Lord if one turns to the issues of reference, er the commercial quarters as we discussed yesterday should only make a reference if it's necessary to do so in order to resolve the case and has the discretion whether to make a reference under article one seven, seven yes erm and er, you know as you're exercising your discretion your Lordship there's the points in the white book, my Lord in the interim it would be the societies submission that there are three reasons why during the time that it may take to get any guidance from the European court, in the interim, the application of the bi-laws and in particular the provisions of the Act nineteen eighty two should be maintained and er given er their force, because clearly my Lord if there is to be a reference to the European court, matters will take some two years or so before the European court will give it's ruling that I think would be common ground with my learned friend that's roughly the normal stage now mm not quite that long, but possibly yes see it in the region of twenty months and two years, erm, in those circumstances my Lord er the issue must arise in the interim er is er able er to re-claim money for the central fund, these are monies that are as your Lordship knows under article ten, payable forthwith on demand and in the interim can it rely on the statutory effect of section fourteen of the act yes and er qualified immunity from damages, my Lord there are three grounds why we say er that er in the interim were your Lordship minded to make a reference that recoveries from the central fund should be allowed to continue. My Lord the first er issue is as a matter of English law and the English law position, my Lord in making my main submissions to your Lordship I took you to the case, we looked at the statements of er the House of Lords and er Lord in particular with whom the other Law Lords agreed, my Lord do you wish to go back to the fact again? no, no, I, I, I just really want, cos I don't think there's any question of me this afternoon ruling on whether you're right or not on these points, but I just er on second I thoughts I want to have them in mind very well my Lord at least, so you've got the factor ten, yes and my Lord you've got on factor ten the references to Lord and the others yes Law Lords, my Lord in addition there is also the continental television er case, which is at tab five of your Lordship supplementary er bundle. My Lord this is a, er a, a case with er strong facts, it's er the case that dealt with the red hot television Dutch television oh yes and erm, in this case my Lord the, we have got both the judgement at the divisional court and at the court of appeal there is. The facts my Lord are, are set out, I'll leave your Lordship to, to read it this is tab tab four and five my Lord for supplementary authorities. one I'm not sure it is, unless I'm looking at the wrong er the wrong bundle, it's the grey bundle my Lord it looks, looks like this, erm is that your, that's your, your pl plaintiffs authority preliminary issues that's right my Lord erm, whereas I've been called, yes, here it is, yeah, tab four, seven, five er tab four and five, tab four and five, we've been with tab four mm, mm tab four is the divisional courts decision yes my Lord you'll find the facts of the case, er set out at pages three to six, the character of the programme is described starting at three D yes I do have a, a general idea of what was all about exactly my Lord, erm not taken from that that I've ever seen it, but I do recognise I don't think any of us have ever seen it my Lord, erm the erm, the just, the, in this was a case where you will find er that er a reference was made for guidance as to the scope of the broadcasting directive yes by the divisional court and er it was a case where the divisional court er had to er consider what it should do in the interim, the Lord Justice er in the divisional court judgement deals with the interim position at er page twenty five of the transcript, starting at letter F and er going through to er page twenty eight paragraph B and I think it might help my Lord if you could read that passage in the justice latest judgment. yes and my Lord er the appeal to the court of appeal er which is at erm tab five was exclusively on the issue of whether Lord Justice and the divisional court were correct in the ruling they have docted for the interim, er and the court of appeal judgement, the main judgement is given by Lord Justice er reviewed with and the erm the heart of Lord Justice judgement on this issue is to be found at page nineteen my Lord of the transcript passage that begins my reading of this judgment down to the bottom of that paragraph at letter G, so from B to G on page nineteen. yes Now my Lord, er, Lord Justice er agreed with er Lord Justice that's at twenty A, Lord Justice also agreed but er added er some further thoughts on the, er on the issue er his conclusion er is summarized at page twenty two paragraph G of er the transcript. yes, yes Now my Lord, your Lordship would of seen from, in fact the same case, and now from the continental television case, both in the divisional court and in the court of appeal, that where a reference is to be made the court that is making the reference, it what is sort to be done is either to challenge a British statute or in the case of er, er the red hot Dutch case, in fact the terms were caused in the statute er something which in involves a ministerial decision, but in either of those instances the court has got to decide in the interim whether or not the statute or measure should remain in force and there is the priority of public policy as indicated in er Lord er speech referred to both in the divisional court and in the court of appeal in continental television in maintaining the law in force and a, a bonus has to be faced by the person seeking discipline the law to show us the simply strong case to justify the er, er the suspension of the law in the interim. My Lord making my main submissions to your Lordship, erm I submitted and it is position that there is no distinction between public and private acts, the thicken in the board, both the act and the central fund by the law should be taken as valid in the interim if your Lordship is minded to make a reference unless strong evidence of invalidity is produced, so your Lordship if you make a reference it needs to form a view as to the strength of the yes of the erm well, well how would that of the defendants case how would that fit into the present context, erm, we're assuming here that I haven't decided the er European courts or some of them in your favour yes my Lord or alternatively, because I have, I have made this clear throughout, I come to the conclusion that the, the questions of this opposed er, or opposed in any form which any one here has suggest corner. Mm. Selwyn to your end. Yes. Oh it did erm did wha did What would it be? Joyce, did Joyce do a few? She gave a few. No, I took them off of her, she gave them to me Oh right. and I went down as far as er Was it the corner? Where you can see I think you know. er As far as the eye can see I mean. Yeah, I see what you mean, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I went down as far as Frank 's Yeah. on the corner. Yeah. Yeah. Have you had problems in the area recently? don't know. Burglaries? Well the only thing we Somebody . Oh yeah. buy three ten. Yeah. I mean I go, I go to some meetings, yeah and I asked who's been burgled and all the hands shoot up. Really? Oh yeah. Yeah. Not in this area, in Nottingham Yeah. One or two burglaries during the day time. Mhm. Yeah. People have been in the house and they nipped in while they've been Yes. Yeah. Mrs Yes. That's only about two month ago isn't it? Two month ago. Mm. They've just gone round. They've been on loo while they've been and done them. anyone's gonna They don't want the same crime . Well I don't know really what you mean by Well I mean there's nothing much anyway. It, it into Southwell. Yeah, it's very low. Yeah erm Er but having said that,was Oh absolutely yeah yeah. seventeen cars broken into. Oh. On Saturday night There can be a lot of crime occur without you knowing. Yeah that's right Someone tells me the other day that I, I've you know y Yeah. s three public houses there in a, a row, must be fairly unique that. Er it's not to live there it's just No. coincidence. But he was telling me that there's twenty one cars been stolen from the car park this year. Mm. And I didn't know wh anything. Because Yeah. the people come into the village Mm. Yeah. er for the entertainment, and their car gets stolen. Cos they don't say anyone in the village car been stolen No. they go home and tell their neighbours. Yeah. Mm. Consequently we don't hear about it. So you, you may have crimes against cars in Mm. particular Yeah where people coming on the main road Yeah. get broken in to. Mm. Do you want me to make a start now or do you want me to Yeah, Right. I'll give these out first of all. Just get rid of them and I wo won't have to worry about them any more. Three four five . Take one, pass them round. Bit like being at college isn't it? pass one of these round each and if, there's plenty here so if you've got any friends, neighbours that can't be here tonight for any reason then feel free to take one afterwards and, well it wouldn't bother me if I had none to take back. Yeah. Thank you. Oh right. Right. Pass them along. If I can just introduce myself. Er I think you've all guessed that I must be the policeman. Considering I'm dressed in a black suit . I were looking at your feet but Well they're not that they're not that big, they're only size eight, they're not really a sort of stereotype policeman. My name's Paul I'm a sergeant with the Community Affairs Department er I'm, I was based at until last week but now I'm based at temporarily. Erm my history in the police is that I've got eighteen years' police servicing, started at Newark which isn't too far away from here, did about four years there and I was a village policeman at Alderton for about a year of that time. And er it achieved my first ambition in life to appear on television I, I don't know wheth can you remember the Rampton enquiry Yeah. that was on? Yeah. Mm. Well that all started of at Alderton hospital when I, I was seen to run across this field and rescue patient that had slashed their wrists. Yeah. When it was on television it really looked, it really looked good but er the reality of it was it was pretty bad really but er the editor was very kind to me and made me look quite a hero but . In fact he had me arriving at the scene in a police car with two tones, at, at, at that time we didn't have police cars with two tones, just siren, so they obviously put some sound on it. I actually arrived in a neighbour's Mini car. see on television. I moved from er Alderton and went to Bingham I suppose you all remember the Bingham area again? I was there for about a couple of years and then I moved in into Nottingham on traff on the Traffic Department, you know the people that wear the white hats and, and do people for speeding. Er but we dealt with quite a few serious accidents in the time I was there. That was the main we had. Also had a spell on the motorway for about er I think it was just over a year. Er on the M one. We don't cover a great deal of the M one but it's something like fourteen miles but that was about the time of the miners' strike as well so I was on traffic when that was on and we had these intercept boys who were working something like thirteen hour shifts for about a year. absolutely ridiculous it was. And then from there I moved on to C I D at in Nottingham. Did a year and a half there and then er promoted me and moved me back to Newark. Er where I did about three years and then moved to Southwell. So there's a good year and a half at Southwell so I know the area, in fact I was over at Southwell when Simon was a police officer, covering the area. I don't know whether you know Simon? Yes. I think he's been replaced now, well not replaced a long time ago. He's gone, yeah. Er I think he still covers the area though doesn't he? Now and again. Yeah, yeah but there's, you've got a new village police officer haven't you? Or have you? Yes er ex Yeah. army yeah. Is he? Oh. Yeah. Oh yes. I don't think. What's your name ? Er Colin. Colin that's it? Ah, I don't, I don't know him I've not met him then. No he's not long out of the army. No. He's in the army. So you're gonna get some Northern Ireland type policing. Yeah oh yes . Right we'll move on from that. So I was in at, at er Southwell when the job came on community affairs, I've been on community affairs for the last four years. What we deal with there is crime prevention. Er school liaison, er we do things like arrange talks to different community groups, put on shows and displays. We also have er a branch that deals with juvenile crime as well. Er although that part of the department seems to be a bit independent of the rest of it. Tt so that's what I do. Er j I just wanted to give you a bit of background so you know who you're talking with. When there's er when there's this sort of number what I like to do is make it very informal, more of a chat really than, than a talk. I mean if the room was full a projector and slide show and everything and then usually everybody falls to sleep half way through anyway so, so we'll have a chat and if there's any sort of er questions, burning questions as er I'm going along, feel free to ask. In fact I'd rather you ask as I'm going through because er very often you think of something and er you wait to the end and you've forgotten what it was you wanted to know until you've got home when then you re all of a sudden you remember what it was. So I want to start about talking about what Neighbourhood Watch is and what it isn't. And see what you feel Neighbourhood Watch should be or shouldn't be. And then talk about er house security. But I, I wanted to try something slightly different tonight as a bit of an experiment, I wanted us to sort of put ourselves in the position of the criminal and we plan a burglary of our house and see what, what we think about. Now if we do that then er if you know how to plan a burglary and we're relying on you not to actually take this in in to practice. If we plan a burglary between us at least it makes us think about the, the sort of things that we need to look at our houses, to stop that burglary from burglary from happening. So that's what I want to do, is that okay with everybody? That'll satisfy everybody will it? Right. Neighbourhood Watch, erm it's an American idea. I think in America what they did is actually people went out on patrol there. Er I'm not sure whether they went out with guns or anything like that. Or Well yeah, yeah that's the sort of thing it was more, the emphas the emphasis was on civilians patrolling their own, their own areas. Erm that may be fine in America but we didn't think it was particularly relevant to this country although there's nothing to stop anyone patrolling if they want to but we don't particularly advise it. It came over here in nineteen eighty four, the first Nei sorry, nineteen eighty two. The first Neighbourhood Watch was this place called Mollington in Cheshire. Now I say that was the first Neighbourhood Watch, it was actually the first police recognized Neighbourhood Watch. There's a chap er at our called Bill who claims that he got one one year before that but he can't prove it to us, er apparently he read in the Readers Digest of Neighbourhood Watch schemes in America and set one up himself in his own little area. Now, but he forgot to tell the police so unfortunately for p poor old Bill he never got his name in history. Whereas the er coordinator at Mollington in Cheshire er has now. So that was nineteen eighty two, the first one we had was at the end of nineteen eighty four, which was at . Erm we made a little mistake with that one because it was a, a very big area, a lot of houses, and er the Crime Prevention Department as it was then, promised everyone that we'd visit everyone's house and, and advise them on their security. Which is a nice promise to make but when you've got so many thousand houses to get through it took about six months to set the scheme up. Now just give you an example of the numbers of schemes we've got at the moment, just on my area, my old area from West Bridgford, covering Newark, there's two hundred and twenty Neighbourhood Watch schemes. So if it took six months to start each scheme up w well I think we'd still be on number three or four. So we re we revamped Neighbourhood Watch, and what we did was er is er instead of going to everyone's house we have this meeting at the beginning just to discuss crime prevention and er tell people what Neighbourhood Watch is about. Er Neighbourhood Watch has grown quite fast. Erm it's certainly grown faster than we anticipated it growing and we are not able to er we're not able to carry out what we like to do with Neighbourhood Watch. We'd like to keep Neighbourhood Watch fully informed of all the crimes that happen in the area. We can't do that, we can't even keep ourselves informed too easily as to what's happening. So the emphasis now is more on the people themselves, basically Neighbourhood Watch is your scheme, it's not a police thing, we support it, we pay for the hall tonight, we pay for the signs for the street and we give you all the literature free, but it is your scheme and it's how you want it to be. Some Neighbourhood Watches do things like run cheese and wine parties and trips to the coast and bonfire night, Christmas parties and all that lot. Some don't do anything at all, they're just there in the, in the name alone and if anything does happen they'll into action. But I suppose the real thing about Neighbourhood Watch as I see it is it's there to create a, a neighbourly spirit. Not much more than that, I think most good ne neighbours look for each other anyway, in fact probably that's what happens in your street. You all look after each other. If someone goes away on holiday, you may well give the key to a neighbour, they probably know a relative of yours or somebody like that that if anything does happen they can contact you or your relative to come down and check the house over. Er some neighbours cut each other 's lawn while they're away so the grass doesn't grow too long and make sure that the mail's moved away from the letter box. They're the sort of things that happen? Mm. I don't know, I'm not You're a I have methods actually, no. Yeah. I mean I'm her relative around here and certainly no one cuts my lawn. Don't they? Right. No. Right. Erm N Neighbourhood Watch is, is, is trying to establish that type of relationship in, in the area so that everybody does know each other. Not to the extent where you're living in each other 's pockets, it's just that er you know enough about each other to see if there's anything out of the ordinary happening. And if a strange person is walking up the driveway with intention of breaking in at least somebody may notice it. Mhm. Er I, I suppose if we're going back something like forty, fifty years where people tended to live in the same area most of their lives, and their families in the area, people didn't move very far, they were probably born in an area, went to work in the area and died in the area. Er that's completely changed now,p people move great distances when they get employ to, to find employment. Now I'm, I'm from Worksop and my first job was at Newark and my contacts now gone. Erm s so you've now got the situation in modern times where people probably go out to work all day, come home at the end and don't even know who the names of the people living next door to them. And that's happening more and more. And Neighbourhood Watch is really to try that down a little bit. The only problem with it is that very often we, the people that organize the Neighbourhood Watches already live in areas that don't really need one that much. You know they're already fairly good neighbours anyway. Er we'd like to introduce Neighbourhood Watch into inner city areas where people don't know each other too well. We try and get them to look after each other. Th the crime problem, as we've already said isn't too, too great here but er nevertheless it's important that we, we er keep our eyes open and try and keep crime out because some of these people that erm are living in the bigger cities that are criminals are now starting to discover that it's easier to come out to places like Farnsfield and commit the crime, because we, we're not experienced at it. But we trust too many people and er could certainly find burglaries have gone up gone up something like five hundred percent in the last two or three years. Er it hasn't happened here too much yet but it could be there in the near future, so we've all got to be really careful about that. Neighbourhood Watches is organized er in the, there's, we have a head coordinator i of each scheme which is er someone that lives in the area. Usually the head coordinator is the person who er takes the initiative to organize the scheme. And in, in that case it, I forget your first name ? Jan. Jan. Jan. Jan. Erm usually it's the person that does that so it, it's probably you. Yeah. But er some schemes have annual general meetings and elect people er some are quite content to leave things as they are and the volunteer carries on all the way through with it. That head coordinator is appointed contact for the police. If we needed to talk to your scheme and if we would, it would be fairly serious incident for us to come to you, to tell you about it ask Phil for some help with it. Er it just gives us a focal point for us to go and see. And then what the head coordinator needs is some other people to help. Now have you got, is that Mm. organized is it? To my left You don't mind them do you? known about them. discussed it actually. No she asked me That's right and Yes. Selwyn. And we have discussed it haven't we Selwyn? Yeah. Yeah. Now all that, all that is just, just to ease the burden that Mm. you may have. In, occasionally we send out er we have like a, a neighbourhood news newspaper for Neighbourhood Watch schemes. And we'll come and we'll leave you a pile of newspapers to distribute. If you don't want them you don't have to but they're free of charge. And if you decide to distribute them then you're going to need to help, so you just give a few to, and a few to you as well, we'll get them distributed that way. Er if it was something serious, like say we'd had a murder or something in the village Mm. you'd probably know about it before our police force do, the way villages work. But may be that we had a description, want to get the description out to as many people as possible, to see if anybody recognizes the person described, er then we'd come to you there, give you the description of the Mm. Go round and ask everybody in the area. Er and you'd get some feedback to us from the Neighbourhood Watch point of view er and it's not peculiar to Neighbourhood Watches but er from, from your point of view you also have access to the police in that er eventually there should be a liaison built up, not overnight I mean it won't, it won't happen tomorrow morning either,but there'll be a lia liaison between the, the local police officer and yourselves er and if there's any problems that you may have, you know and you'll be able to communicate back to them. If, if there's an incident happens, doesn't mean you have to wait for the local police officer to tell, to come along and tell him, you've still got police support all round you anywhere. It's important that if it's an incident to get in contact with us straight away. It's only if there's a sort of niggling problem that would tell the coordinator about and they would pass it to the police officers. Er it's, it's hard to think of an example but something like if, if you thought that this street lighting wasn't adequate and you were concerned that the, it could affect the crime levels in your area. And I'm not saying that will happen but that's the sort of thing you could pass on to the police and they could take it up with the local council. Or you could as a Neighbourhood Watch do that yourself. Makes you into a sort of pressure group. If there's anything you need action on, a cr crime or anything like that, then contact the police direct. There's two ways of doing that, dial them on nine nine nine or ring up the local police control, which for this area is at Newark. Er a lot of people ask me, how are you choose the difference between nine nine nine and the local police station. If it's something you want the police there to deal with quite quickly and if, if they waited an hour or so and the police didn't come then couldn't deal with it. An example would be, if there's er a strange person g gone up the neighbour's drive, you know they're on holiday and you hear a window smash, you need the police there straight away to deal with that. That is a nine nine nine. If you er using a similar example, if, if you were looking after the neighbour's house while they're away on holiday and found that they'd been broken into, then that wouldn't necessarily be a nine nine nine call, unless you thought there was somebody in the house. Because it wouldn't really matter that much if it took an hour for the police officer to come. I mean it's happened, it's gone er and doesn't matter how quickly the police officer gets there to deal with it. Having said that if you did dial nine nine nine we wouldn't be too hard on you. In fact we'd rather you ring nine nine nine er but find out it wasn't necessary than you not to ring nine nine nine when it was necessary. So if there's any doubt, use your nine nine nine system. Right any questions on that? Well that's the best thing, cos I'm on a case a couple of weeks and I rang your police on Friday night Yeah. and they came on Tuesday. What was that? I'm not going to mention any names and all. No no He was round the Friday night Yeah. and the Monday, and they eventually turned up on the Tuesday. Yeah, what was it for? Well it was just damage to my car. But we couldn't have any couldn't have any had they come on Friday, they may have done. Not too late on Tuesday. Mm. Mm. They said they'll contact the was out, and it was forgotten. Was it? Well it must have been, to arrive Tuesdays. Well I'm not, it's not sometimes they have they wait for the local officer to come on duty. If it's something like that, they will do that occasionally. But where they fell down, they should have told you that was what would happen Right. erm so that y so that you expected this sort of measure of service and if you were told the, if you were told the circumstances you might have said well that's okay, no problem. I mean you mi then you might have said, well actually I want someone here a bit quicker and then they would have done something else. Mm. would have told you. But i it occasionally happens though, er it's not very good though is it? It's not, no. Let's think, No. you say about Neighbourhood Watch contact Yeah, the police yeah. to observe them. If you're gonna wait three days at a time for the local copper to turn up, what's the point? That's bit too The things is some of them being throttled round at the time. No. Erm, yeah. You think Newark's bad, you ought to see some of the police stations in Nottingham. Carlton police station, which is my police station, you can wait twenty minutes for the phone to be answered. yeah. Now we, we do know that's a problem, the police service know it's a problem, and the Chief Constable's come up with these er these performance targets, where he's try he's promising to the public that he's going to endeavour to make sure that all police telephone calls are answered within certain time periods. And we've got a very big computerized telephone system, so that if it doesn't answer sit there with a stopwatch timing each phone I presume, it's all automatically done and they get a print out at the end of every month giving the average time of the, the phone the, the, the phone takes to be answered. And then that's circulated to each division, and if Newark in the future isn't coming up anywhere near those standards or, or failing to improve month after month, then he'll want to know why. And one of the things they're going to do is to centralize the switchboard that it'll, you won't actually ring me up at all, you might ring the, the telephone number for Newark but it'll be answered at headquarters and they'll put you through. Cos a lot, a lot of the time is spent er by the switchboard operators just putting calls through to different officers. And you might be waiting to report an incident. Mm. So what we've got to do is try and filter out that so that the incidents go straight through to the incident rooms, rather than being queued behind everybody who just wants to speak to the caretaker, to talk about the hinges that's just normally . Mm. Is that, that's the problem, the pile up of, of calls. Mm. But if, if you do ring a police station and they are answered in order, so it's just a matter of waiting, they will be answered but the switchboard has it will take them in order, it's not just a matter of which button shall I press now. That's it. Any more comments at all on the Neighbourhood Watch before I start? Yes. Er what's er what's the position about noise? Can we do anything about that? It Er record players er record players it's er doesn't actually affect me but I can hear it. thump thump thump. Is it er a neighbour's house or is Yes, it a pub or yes er no it's the neighbour's house across the road. Yeah. And they have parties about once a fortnight and well Yeah, well underaged drinking too. Yeah, I, I could say well that's not a police issue and then forget about it but that's not really a good response,? No. Er the environmental people at Newark er at Newarkshire and District Council Yeah. should be able to deal with that for you. Erm I, I think the way to deal with any anybody that's making noise you subtle obligation on people to actually mention it to them. Mhm. It may well have been done. You see we d we don't know when they're going to have these parties, Yeah. and you see if we ring s Newark and Sherwood up at the there these bastards going get the answerphone don't you? You know what there is? next morning. Yes. That's the problem, if it's a one-off party there's not a great deal you can do. Some people do ring the police Yeah. After one-off parties What I'm saying if it is a one-off party there's not a lot we can do about that. Yeah. Some people do ring the police up and the police, if we've got the time, we'll come along and ask them to switch it down. Yeah. The problem comes if they don't, cos there's not a lot else we can do about that. Generally speaking though most people will switch things down. I mean the street I lived once and er the police came to the party, it did get switched down a little bit, but er th the falling out after that for the next week, who rang the police and you Yes. know it was a real big thing, Yes. but there was no parties after that for quite a long time. Unless people invited the next door neighbours, then it wasn't too bad . But if it's something that's going off fairly regular Every Saturday night. Mm yeah, if it's something regular . Every Saturday, yeah. Then there's a individual From four o'clock onwards. Pardon? From four o'clock onwards If it's i as an individual or as now as a, a Neighbourhood Watch, although I mean it's not the main function of Neighbourhood Watch to do not noisy parties, but it could do,then make a complaint to Newark and District Council To the to the environmental health people. Just we're talking about got two children, a girl, a boy. With the girl about fourteen? Fifteen isn't she? Yeah. Yeah Is it a council house? I should think something like that really. Is it a council house? There's only them two Yes. Yes. Well I had to go round the other night, Saturday night,and you couldn't get through the door. There were, I, young and girls and Yeah. and a lot of smoking and drinking and language and Yeah and while I've seen what's doing it I'll just say that's it not In a in an addition to er the er environmental health people though, if it's a council house there's housing department will deal with that. It's like talking to that wall You've got to keep on at it and it's like, like us, you've got to keep on at us sometimes, Er I've got to live next door to them that's Yeah, all. and sometimes it's, it's, it's er rather than ring up, write a letter, cos it's surprising how differently things are treated if it's in writing. Well I'm not the only one, this is the whole point, I'm not the only one,most everyone here's rang up about it. Yeah. Yeah well phone calls can get forgotten about, you're not far away as a phone call. drugs involved as well, as well as Yeah. And it's Yes well singing been in hospital three or four times, There's, there's drugs in there, there's drug in that house, I'm sure Hard stuff as well as the grass. Well I, I, I'll, what I'll have to do is have a word with the local police on this, cos it's not something I can deal with tonight . Oh no it was just Yeah, I'll, I'll bring that up for you and see what it is. If they walk in there they'd get a right haul, they'd have the lot. Coming back to the council last year, some time in May last year, and er I was telling them about the noise and the situation,at the time. And er I told them that er I wasn't p p p prepared er because they was there during the day as well, it didn't used to across to catch the school bus, and be half a dozen or so come back next door, and stop there till about twenty past three then go back, come back over as if he's got out the bus. Mm. He was next door making noise Well, I don't want I don't want to dwell too much on this. I'm glad you brought that up really, in a sense, because if you complain about something, very often you can feel o on your own, that you're the only one that's doing that someone will take retribution on you Mm. but as a group of people er you can support each other, it makes you feel a bit happier about complaining. . Especially if there's several others complaining as well. I suppose one of the things about Neighbourhood Watch, if, if it worked properly, is that you, there's a group of you with a common interest, and you could deal with a situation like that a bit better than you could if you were on your own. Well when I was down at the er council that May, I told them there and then that er I'm prepared to er let one of the council men come to our house, about eight o'clock in the morning, and then stop till ten and then come back again about two and wait till they come home from school which they wouldn't have come home from school, but they go across the road and come back again, double back as if they'd been to school Yeah. but they're not. Er I offered it for about eight hours a day, but they might send us somebody might . Well keep at them. Yeah. I think when you you get probably fifty five, and get them sixty retire, why should you put up with all this harassment? But th th this is It's not fair, is it? And, and I think that y until you can do something about this then you're not going to fight the crimes that occur. Cos half of it's Well that's true, yeah. children anyway, aren't they? I, I, er I used to have an inspector when I was on traffic and he says you take care of the little things and the big things will take care of themselves. That's right, yeah. And if you do let the little Yeah. things slip then I mean it, it has a knock-on effect. Mm mm mm. I mean you have no hope at all of Yeah. the big things if you don't tackle the little ones. Because noise, I mean it is harassing, it gets on your nerves, you know. You feel like strangling them. At the one direction it's these people next door to us I've lived there what, twenty six, twenty seven years, and we, I've people living next door, six children and never a any noise to what we get in there. Mm. Ah but they weren't one parent families Now Mrs were they? Mrs schoolteachers Yes, but they weren't on Social Security were they? Pardon? One parent fam No One parent family, Social Security. That's where the is. Well, I don't one parent families No. I think I think y with a certain you get an Yes. Not unless We get it now, we're getting altogether How long have they lived there? Too long, er About three years isn't it? Er, Three or four years. I'm four year now. Four years. Four year. Yeah well but er you don't know who lives there, was that different blokes living a going there, you don't know who's there. Yeah. Yeah. Well I, I can't really do much about that tonight but if, if you can leave that with me, what I'll do is I'll have a word with er Saturday See if we can sort that out. Erm s certainly one of the ways is to keep that chap was on that car horn. Oh. I looked through the bedroom and this chap was standing on this Mini, jumping up and down . He got off the Mini, he that went flying up street, she came out of the next door. They both got a taxi to the I was with her, I was She, he gets out, he gets her nightdress, he pushes her nightdress under dancing like a This is a party is it? No Normal They'd been shopping. gardening and all. social workers So it weren't them dancing on the car then ? Hmm? It wasn't them dancing on the car, it was this chap who was doing it? It was just a chap I'm sure He was no numberplates on the car cos the following morning I went out no numberplate and there were bits of car all over the street but throwed off He did. I watch Got no idea. Got no idea. Yes I alright for a criminal Yeah. Erm I've not done this before and I wanted to try it out with a small group like yourselves to see how we go on with it. What I want to do is try and find out, we'll try and put ourselves in the criminal's er position and then s see how we go about breaking into a house. That make sense? Yes. The o one thing that w we have to have in mind though is that the this particular criminal that we are doesn't want to get caught. Most, most criminals don't want to get caught but there are the odd exceptions who are a bit idiotic er but we erm they're very rare and usually high on drugs on something like that, but we're just your ordinary sort of down and out type criminal who wants to break in some way. Doesn't want to get caught, probably been in prison before, may even be on a suspended sentence and if they get caught they're going to go erm in prison for about more than a year or so. Er so that's, that's what we are, criminal, we don't want to get caught and want to get some money and th the way we're going to do it is to break into our house. Erm if we can just sort of work out in our own minds what, I, I don't want addresses or anything like that, so don't say oh I'll break into number six, or anything like that but just anywhere in the area of Farnsfield imagine houses yourself, is to what sort of type of house we break into. When we say that I don't mean whether it's a four or three bedroom house, I mean the sort of location it would be in, whether it would be a middle of a terrace or a middle of a string of houses, on the corner of a street or whether it would be on its own in the country somewhere or whether the back garden would back on to some playing fields or er the railway line or whether there'd be houses at the back. Whether you'd break into to it from the front, from the side, the back that sort of thing. Anybody want to start an isolated place don't you? The more isolated the better. One w yeah, one where doors are. There's plenty of trees around, like mine for instance Why do, why do you say that? Well then if, if someone was breaking in and they probably don't go through doors, burglars, I've never really studied it but Well they do, they do, They do. Well if you if you can't see a door from the road then that will be the ideal entrance I would have thought. If it's Mhm. shaded by trees. So you'd go for a, you'd go for somewhere isolated? Mm. You'd go for somewhere where you can't be seen. Mhm, yeah. That's right. Mm. they're similar in a way those things. bloody council houses, Ah, you're a clever criminal Yeah I worked for fives years I've plenty of practice Oh you're, you're h you're you'll, you'll, you'll be able to give us some tips then Yeah, C S for five years. So er a anybody an any other sort of houses? No, I don't think I'd go for a house that erm I wouldn't but those big houses of course it would have alarms wouldn't it? Well it could do. Oh yes, so I might the one wasn't quite as rich . One with no on with no outside lights. Yeah. Yeah. And one with plenty of cover round it Are you sure, are you sure that none of you've done this ? That's, that's a sometimes you're most of the big boys, they see it on television the next week they're Right so if we've got this house then, are w any ideas? You said secluded,wh what about corner houses, were there anybody? Yes I corner houses Yeah, You'll go for corner houses very high hedge. You know and even if anybody saw you going down they wouldn't take a big deal of notice. Yes? Yeah. And so you're covered all the way. I mean take ours,you're covered, nobody would see you would they? Yeah, that's right. Yeah. And er and I should er get in round the back. Round the back? Round the back. So w w why, why then erm just see if we've got this right. If they're going for a secluded house or a house where there's plenty of trees and you can't see yes. or, or a corner house and you're, you've always left it open. Definitely a corner house,all the hedges Mm. are open. in a corner house and she's been burgled about five times, in Yes Yes. Mm. You see I think it's the time, I think you've got to think about what time of day as well, haven't you? I think Well, yeah, that's important what, what'll we do, go at night time or in the day time? Yeah I think possibly I would go at night time . Yeah because say in a village You could go in the day Mm. if you saw anybody strange hanging around during Mm. the day, you'd think oh you know Yeah. Yeah that's possible wouldn't you? Yeah. Would we would we break into We're all assuming here that the house is empty I take it? Mm. Would you break into a house that's got someone in? No. No. You could break into that one next door to us and You know you could. Please. I mean you could walk in anybody, a lot of people's houses. Yeah. television. Yeah. And, and especially if there's a football match on. The thing is you've got to get into a routine haven't you? You've got to find what do they say? Something in the joint? Case the joint. bothered to watch people Yeah you've got work. Where they are. If you can get a house where there's a lot of thoroughfare, where people's walking by. But I wouldn't where there's a dog. And they're, they're not going to notice one s stranger go in. How would you know whether someone's in the house or not? If you're keeping surveillance on it. Lights Lights. Fire er chimney Have the windows open. smoking. What would the win The bedroom win the bedroom windows are open What would that what would that say to you though? Well I mean if, if you could er No I'm s what I'm saying is how would you know if someone's in or out? I've been keeping watch for a week or two. So you're going to be When comes to the point. I should good haul. I'm glad you don't turn to crime as a window cleaner. Going in disguise. Yeah. Yeah oh yeah. If we were to If you were to do all this, wouldn't you be better off breaking into a post office or business premises or a Yeah I They're more secure? Yeah. There's, there's too many locks and Yeah. window cleaner. Well if, if, I suppose if your criminal'd be quite wise to that. Mm. Er it might be a bit o more, more than you actually need to. But you see you only want a, a, a ladder for the time being to make sure you get up I mean you can jump You're going up a ladder are you? Yes. Mm. Yeah. Well that happens. That's what I'd do, That happe that happens more than you think. Oh does it? Yes it's a well known they never put money in banks do they? Keep it in a Okay so we've got s we've, we've discussed it a little while, we've already got some, I mean you're more clever at crimes than I have really. Yeah Cos you more criminals than Yeah. we have. But you're well aware that the, the best thing to do is try and commit crime under some kind of cover, or Mm. away from people that might, might see it. You don't want to get caught, you'll work in a secluded place, you'll go for a place that's got hedges around it and where you can't see the door. You'll go for a corner house where you've got hedges and can't be seen. Mm, So w the thing is we don't want to be seen. No. Right so the first thing we, as a crime prevention officer, we, well I look at anyway, is surrounding areas of a house that can't be seen from the road. Is there any hedges there that restrict the view to the house? Now the choices, I mean you'll have to look at, think about your house and so you can, is, is my house easily seen from the road or not? If it isn't then you've gotta make a choice of whether you want to be private or whether you want to run the risk of someone using it as cover. And it's, that's your choice. The, I would generally advise that you try and keep it fairly trim at the front. So that people can see the windows and doors. If anybody's having they'll hopefully report it. Especially now you're the Neighbourhood Watch. The other thing we talked about is er whether people are in or out. The most of would go for a house where people were out, not in. I think that's straightforward, because if there was someone in they would report you straight away. You're risking getting caught again. Erm and we're, we're not physical people are we? We're not going to actually try and grapple with someone, we just want in and out with some valuable stuff. You brought up the special point there, really that, that when someone's watching football match I think you said there are occasions where people do go into houses er that's usually through a door that's left open. Yeah. So it's, if you're in, you've still got to think about security and you ought to be locking your doors, if you can. Erm . So what we need to do is keep the front trim. There's not much we can do with being in or out the building or is there? I mean if we're out at work,we're out at work or if w we've gone out shopping or something like that. I mean has anybody ever delivered anything to houses? Gone canvassing or or, or No. anything like that? I was at a meeting with er Kenneth Clark, name-dropper Just happened to be there and he, he, he was telling the meeting that when he's canvassing, going door to door, he, he knows as soon as walking up the drive whether there's someone in or not. And I've, I've done that and it, there's not one thing you can point to and say there's no one in here because it's several things, altogether, that indicate it, it might have been there's no car on the drive, there might've been, there might've been milk still out. That's easy, easy one that. Er and it might be that er there's a space there where a caravan looks as though it used to stand. You don't actually have to know there's a caravan, it's quite obvious when you've had one move it away. Might be that your grass is a bit long. It might be that everyone's wheely-bin is out except for that particular house. Several things that make you think that there's no one in there. So if we can do something that may trick the would-be burglar into thinking there's someone in, then he may well go somewhere else. I mean if you, you're the burglar now and you're planning to break in a house, and you're looking around at the different houses and you're trying to, one of the many things you're trying to do is to establish whether they're in or out. Then if, if it looks as if they are in, you just go to the next one and look at that, you know what I mean? Mm. Erm right somebody said something about dogs and burglar alarms. I wouldn't go where a dog was. You couldn't go was er I'm not going to recommend that everyone should go out and buy a dog. It's unfair on the dog, if you don't want one then you don't want one. Er if you want a dog as a pet, that's fine,i it will help. Sometimes though dogs only bark when people are in the house, they protect the person, the owner, rather than the building. There's nothing to stop you putting a sign on the gate saying Beware of the dog. Even if you haven't got one. The oth o o one other thing, er I thought that was illegal No. Illegal? Yeah. That's why they brought these things out with dog's head on, I live here. No, no, no that's not legal to put Well I'm take him to test on that that there's no Well he just pointed out to me he was on, I mean it wasn't it wasn't for any reason it was just a Yeah but even have a dog any more, but they used to have a dog, and of course Yeah. they left it up. Yeah. And he said no,buy a badge now with a dog's head on depending on the breed of dog you've got, and it says on it I live here. No, there's nothing, you can put any sign up as long as it doesn't Rottweiler. as long as it doesn't lead anyone into any kind of danger. I mean it's not likely to in fact the opposite is true. Er another thing that I mean thought, somebody told me about the other day er it's an old thing is er gravel drives. Oh yeah. Any body here Yeah. Yeah. That sort of illustrates a point that also, you as criminals wouldn't Mhm. particularly want to be heard either. Mm. Is that right? So when you break in a house you don't, you don't want to be heard you don't want to be seen. Is there anything else that would put you off breaking into a house? You've walked up the drive, there's no sign, there's no dogs no burglar alarms. You can't be seen from the road, is there anything else that might put you off? These lights Camera. Pardon? Lights that come on. There might, yeah. Anything They can be quite startling, erm we haven't really established whether we're going at night or day properly, have we? We had a bit of a mixture, some would go at night and some at day. The important thing about night and day, most burglaries happen in the day time. Now that when most people are out. That makes sense people are in Having said that You create less suspicion during the day. Sorry? You're less suspicious during the day You can be less suspicious, yeah. Cos there's a lot of movement lot of movement about. The reason people go at dark is to, they can go under cover of dark and, cos they don't want to be seen. But the, you know it's two o'clock in the morning and police car's coming through the village and see someone at that time, they're quite likely to stop and ask them what they're doing. The other thing is it's e it's easy to find out whether someone's in, in or out Mm. Why's that? At night The lights, yeah. Curtains drawn. Mm. So we're already, there's, there's people, if we're going at night time we're going to go for houses without lights on. You don't always I know when we go out we leave our lights on. Yeah okay. We put all the lights on and draw the curtains when we're going to go out. Say we went out Yes. at four o'clock and we weren't likely to come back till later. and the curtains are drawn. Yeah. You see? Mm. leave an empty . No, but you do that for the reason Yeah just yeah. make people think you're in. you're in, yeah. So if there's a burglar then, he'll probably be put off by I mean if he really wanted to break into any particular house for a reason, you, you might approach it, but if you haven't got th no firm house in mind you've several houses and there's one house without any lights on at all and it was night time, you may well go for that one first. Think we've all got the right idea. Mm. Hope it doesn't turn to crime There is another good way to find out whether there's anybody in you know ain't there? Telephone. does so and so live here, you No say no you've got the wrong That does happen. Yeah. That does happen. Not very often. Er what we're trying to do really is to try and stop the opportunis opportunist thief. Erm most burglars opportunist burglaries. There's not many people er do observations, or case the joint as you say. Happens, but they do try and go for bigger takings, I mean they'll not break into my house it won't be worth all that worth. It'll be a lot easier to go to work it's less, less hassle. Er so that. See opportunist they, they will not have a particular house in mind, they'll have, they'll just walk round till this one strikes them. Mhm. The mind, examine the way you, that you've done erm if you sort of apply that to your own house, you can actually cut down the chances of a burglary happening to you. Er I mean i it was done very well. The experiment's worked quite good, I was quite amazed. Quite common sense. Er burglar alarms. Is there anybody who would risk breaking into a house with a burglar alarm ? No. Wouldn't risk Not burglar not unless you know all about the wiring and you could take it off yourself. Yeah. No. So even if they weren't in and you to knock on the door, the burglar alarm would stop you? Mhm. Well it's bound to Yeah. wiring about it and you can take it off. Right. Cos look at I mean in our street, our area alarms going off. There've been smoke alarms Yeah. people still Mm. Well if if, if you were on a street then, if you were a burglar and there's a house there with a burglar alarm on Ah, but do you know whether it's a burglar alarm or a smoke alarm? Yes What from the ? From passing . Anybody going by. Do you know whether it's a burglar alarm or a smoke alarm? Only when it's ringing. Yes. Well, I mean it's a bell isn't it? Pardon? Th s er er burglar alarm's a bell. There's different sorts. Th there's different sorts and different sorts Is that I don't know what you mean wh what are you t when you're talking about smoke alarm, what do you mean exactly? Well Do you mean a bell on the outside of the house? No. I'm talking about inside bells now. It's inside. I mean they open the door and bell can go inside can't it? Just alarm. Yeah. Right, so if we're talking about burglar alarms with the bell box on the outside of the house. Erm that would put most of you off. But If the wiring's running outside the outside the person Well could it er British Standards say that wiring shouldn't be external so we're okay there. Right,British Standard, yeah. Well isn't there a way there pushing chimney? Down a chimney? Yeah, W in the box? In the bo on the box to stop it from Ye well it can be done, yeah. Yeah. You know, you know Yeah but i it has been done that, but Oh they it at the Spar, weren't they? The other morning at half past two. I know. rang for the police. And but they'd go gone. Yeah it can be done. It can yeah. That's what they're doing put It's er a kind of foam that they use for insulation. Yeah, yeah. It's in an aerosol. Yeah. Er the the The dam the That's right. Mm. But the er but it can't be done on modern alarms now because the bell boxes they use are anti-foam and they probably have two or three alarm boxes. And the, the . The criminals find their way round something and then the, then the alarm companies stop it from happening. Now the alarm companies are always one behind but er if we're talking about houses, not many burglars would try a, a house with an alarm. Now you, you could in theory just put a bell box on the house to put people off. Er if you were a fairly decent criminal though you, you may well have a look through the windows to see if you can see any detectors on the wall, just to confirm it, because by now you'd be thinking that a lot of these are dummies. Aye look at, look at the hall over in village. and they when the main street . Some time or other you hear that court bell ringing don't you? Yeah. Do you know whether it's a fire alarm or not? Nobody knows No. Oh you hear it, it's rung for as much as twenty minutes while I've been walking round. Or the shops in Yeah. but you don't do anything about it. Okay then so Just along those If it's a fire bell, tell me ring the fireman If it's a, an alarm Well I, I'll talk about continuously no real point then, putting a bell box on. Not having alarm so you put a bell box on. Just a bell box. What with some villains that will only go to houses with something like that, because they think, they see that you've got something worth having. Well I've heard Otherwise you wouldn't have it. I've heard this quite a lot, it's a, it's a common It depends what kind of burglar you're talking about. I mean the days of the black mask and blue and white jersey have gone. It's designer suits and bloody Stocking these days. I've not known I mean you can't tell a burglar I've not known many burglars break into houses with alarms systems. No I don't er And this, this comment about that they think you've got something in the house worth pinching doesn't really come into it. But some, some will say that in bravado. If you worked for the probation service you'll know Yeah well that's what it is Well I burglar alarm cost a, the whole system costs a lot of money to set up, so if you've got in here it's not going to put that expense to set that up. Well actually I think they're very cheap, burglar alarms, they're about three hundred and fifty four hundred pound. When you think about the wiring involved, and the, the hours it takes to put one in I think that they're good value for money. Hmm. It's about the same price as a video. Oh they've come down in price from when I'm talking about,when they first come first out, they were quite a lot, a lot more I reckon the easiest way expensive than that. Yeah. and I would do it is to go during the day, knock on somebody's door and pretend I'm selling something. And then say I want to go to toilet and then I should pinch something Yeah. Mm. And it's done. unless they wanted to get And then you could be going in It's just a deterrent the same as what's on cars. Yeah. Only a deterrent isn't it? Well they will, they will if they really want to get in. What what I'm saying if you, if you put yourself in the position of a burglar, and y you're already, you've done it, you're already making choices. Mm. You're already saying I'm not doing that one because Mm. Mm. I would do a house like this. Mm. Mm. Well what you've got to do now is think about your own house and in the same way you've just thought about it and say what is there about my house that would attract somebody to try and break into it. And then think how can I stop that from happening. Now the burglar alarm's probably the, the biggest thing, but we can't all afford the, I mean I haven't got one and I'm a crime prevention officer, I mean by rights I should have one but I haven't. So it, it won't suit everybody, you might not want, in my case I don't particularly want to live with a burglar alarm. Er because you have to switch them on and off and all this business. I'm, I'm sure I'd change my mind if I was burgled. The very next day I'm sure there'd be er someone round our house putting one up on the wall S s so w if we use the same thing that we've just done on our own house and say how can we stop it from happening, might not get a burglar alarm. It might, it might be though cutting the hedges back a little bit. It might be doing things at night time, leaving the lights on, to make it look as though you're in. Drawing curtains. If you're away on holiday and can't do that getting a neighbour to do it for you, to look after your house, shut the curtains at night and opening them during the day. Er it might be putting a sign up on the, on the fence saying beware of the dog, it might be having a gravel drive. Er it might be having someone making sure the out of the way, to make sure it looks as those there's mil that there's someone in, in or out the house. Some people even leave radios on in the house, so that there's not only the light on, but if somebody does walk up the drive intending to knock on the door to test it, before they get to the door they can hear a noise, they turn around and go back. It might be having lights on like you mentioned. So when someone walks up with the intention of breaking in a light comes on, I mean at one time, it's not the same now, but at one time when these lights with the detectors first came out, nobody actually knew whether they were switched on or not. People had gone up to a house and been knocking on the door waiting for someone to come because the light had come on and they thought there must be somebody in because they switched the light on when they saw me come up the drive, and these are visitors. So it might put, might have put some burglars off, that's not the same case nowadays cos they're so common. But the thing is if you're walking up er the driveway of a house, you don't want to be caught and you don't want to be seen and you, you think you're under cover of darkness and then the big halogen floodlight comes on, puts you in a spotlight next door. So we're all, we're all thinking very well as criminals. Er it's just a matter of swapping it round now and thinking about your own home and i like you mentioned, it's not, if you are in you're, you're, you're still likely to be, well not likely, you still could be er targeted and the burglar who just opens a door and reaches in and takes Mm. something. Yeah, yeah. So it's important to keep doors locked. The only thing you haven't mentioned is, is locks on doors yet Mm. er and I'll just run through this for about five minutes and then any questions and we'll go. But if you c if there's a burglar who got to the house, you've selected your house and everything's okay. How would you break in? What's the best way in? Door? Window Glass cutter. You use a glass cutter. nine times, nine times out of ten the, the er door the back door or the front door has got a great big pane of glass on top of it. Yeah. Is the top, I mean I broke, had to get in my own house when I locked myself out once when I'd been in the garden and I, I just got in by leaning through the top window and opening the bottom window, so now I always lock the bottom windows, I don't bother locking the top one I open it So you've got locks for the windows? So I lock the bottom window. Yeah. So that if even if they reach through they're going to have to break the lock just to get in. So if you were a criminal then you would look for an open window to reach through t to open another window? To reach in yes I wouldn't I couldn't Yeah. do it. I, I You'd use a glass cutter in the door? Mm. Or a window, would you use it on? Pardon? Would you use a glass cutter in a window? Or just a door? Yes, if necessary yes. It's a er it's a means of getting in isn't it? Why would use a glass cutter and not just smash the window? Well it so much noise doesn't it? noise I'm not Just scratch Yes. All you want to do is, all you wanted to do just strike it in middle of glass go round it just I lived in my house for going on for a year before I realized that all you had to do was put your hand through my letter box, reach up and you could take, open the Yale lock because I'd been there a year I locked myself out and I thought the only thing I can do is try and get in by putting my hand through. It was as easy as anything, and for a long time I, I felt well at least I can get in that way and then I thought oh maybe I should, you know doing, doing anything about it, but now I always go out of the other door Yeah. and bolt that one because I don't want anybody to be there when I get back. I don't mind if they've been, but if they're waiting or It's, it's funny because we, we were having this conversation before we came in weren't we? Yeah. Er someone tells him that, a policeman tells him the best way to look at it is if you were locked out your house Yeah. y your key's in the inside, how would you get in? Yeah I mean You're not supposed to leave your key in anyway. Well no but er I think we're, we've all got an idea how we'd get into our own house if we were locked out. Mm. Well I haven't really because I've got double glazing. Yeah. Well I couldn't get in my house cos I'd have to undo You could really get in most houses if you really wanted If I locked my door at night,I was to take the key out, never leave the key in never leave the key in Mine's got Mine's locked and I've got a chain on as well. Mine's Right. My wife will er at night time she locks all the doors, she takes all keys out. Yeah, you're supposed to do it. She takes all key out. piece of paper shove a key out, pull it out. That's it. I've still, I've, I've actually something that's even more stupid than that. I've got two back doors, there's a storm porch and the door to the house and they're both locked and bolted. I've even got five lever mortise locks. Yeah. We've got two dogs, we've got double glazing, and the front door's got a five lever mortise lock. Yeah. And we've got no hedge on . We've got out back, it's all sheltered,next door's got more for years to put them down the front, my wife won't let me for the same reason she says if you blind yourself then any bugger can come in. Yeah. But our front door is never locked. There you are. We go to bed and I say, you locked the front door? Mm. Could But I don't think they'll get in, as I say there's two dogs I'm always first in bed at night, all those windows. Can I Twenty minutes later she A lot of people point in, it's quite important that you, you made when you said using glass cutter erm and you said about reaching through open windows. And I asked why wouldn't you break a window and you said noise. Is there any, any other reason you can think of why somebody wouldn't break a window? Why you wouldn't break a Why you wouldn't break a window to break a window, why you'd go to the trouble of using a glass cutter If you broke a window you could cut yourself, Yeah yeah, that's about it really. In my experience and er it's backed up by research, a burglar will, will only break glass if it, if they can reach through to open a window, in much the same way that Mm. you would look for an open window. Mm. Er they don't particularly like to make a, a noise, but some, some do if it's quick. If someone has to break a window and knock out all the glass it makes even more noise. I mean it's falling on the floor. Erm so if they do something with, with windows that makes them actually the, the open way they can break in is to break all the glass out, and the way you would do that is to fit a window lock. So even if they made a little, if they've got the glass cutter, made a little round hole then reached , still couldn't get the window open they'd be forced to break the whole lot and make more noise. Er they can be quite effective. It's only a little thing, putting window locks on, on, on, you wouldn't buy a house now without a lock on the door, but a lot of people still buy houses without locks on the windows. I'm afraid that, you know, those days are limited. Eventually we'll all have locks on windows fully insured are you? For burglary if you haven't got locks on Well your windows. with certain of the, the insurance companies, that's true, yeah er it's always worth checking. I've got to mention insurance, cos now you're in the Neighbourhood Watch you get a discount on your house contents. So next time your insurance is due, tell them that you're in the Neighbourhood Mm. Watch. Yeah. Any sort of final comments anyone? Er er I don't think after going through everything we've said, I think we've all got the sort of ideas that we could all make good criminals, er we know what to do. If we know what to do we can all look at our own houses and decide how we can alter them in not too expensive ways to make it a bit harder for the criminal. Erm and r really that's all crime prevention's about. It's all about looking after your house is about, using the neighbours, using the knowledge you've got to make it more difficult. Any When, when this was first suggested erm was couple of questions came back and Selwyn and I spoke about it, was the fact that w are there or would there be any recriminations for people who kind of belong to any Neighbourhood Watch, like a brick through a window or, or, because anybody who saw erm that programme on television a fortnight, Esther Rantzen, and Neighbourhood Watch was mentioned. Was that, was a in the front garden? Was that I only came into the room and I switched it on and i there were quite a lot of recriminations with people who Yeah it were Manch was it Manchester? I don't know I just watched a clip And she said you're nothing but a load of old busybodies and how dare you and oh the language. Because Yeah. these people actually set up a Neighbourhood Watch and you know any reason Well you shouldn't get that where we are It wasn't everybody was in agree I mean all them were all in agreement. Yeah it wasn't a very good part Everybody agreed of Manchester it was Yeah. an awful part of Manchester. Erm Yeah it's it certainly is an issue that would er worry a lot of people in a Yeah. inner city. next door. Exactly that's Er which is better place big window as far as I can see. Not in the big window? No Why? sign their names and Mm. everything. Yeah. There'll be no having said, next It's a deterrent, ignore it they think it, that it's just they Yeah. ignore it don't they? They don't do anything Yes especially cos you don't know what it's for half the bloody time, she doesn't know where she is. She ignores you whatever Right erm she just Well that makes Can I, can I sort wind ? I've given you these Yeah. green books. Er they go into crime prevention in, in a fairly big way. Have a read through them at your leisure. Er the blue book is just a guide for yourselves as cos Neighbourhood Watch members. And stickers are for the windows. Do take some more for your neighbours people who couldn't be here today. Er distribute them round. The thing about the Neighbourhood Watch is that everyone in the area is a member whether they really want to be one or not to be honest. Er just living in it makes them a member. I mean there's no, there's no fee or anything like that involved, so the fact that you're all seen as members will cut down on any recriminations you might have. I don't think that's a real threat in Farnsfield to be honest. The worst we've had recrimination-wise with Neighbourhood Watch schemes, is some people bend the signs and spray, spray paint them but I think you could live with that. Er but I, I don't think that'll happen in Farnsfield. You never know,some somebody walking home from the pub one night with a bit too much, too much to drink might just bend the sign. But that happens to all street signs, Mm. Mm. occasionally. It's just that it does som sometimes seem temptation. Right erm I, I do wish you well with your scheme Thank you. Er you've got a lot of work to do if this is got here tonight, er just s spread the word, tell them it's not as bad as they probably think it is, there's no patrols needed or anything like that. And er I'd like to sort of thank Jan on your behalf and all the other people for taking the trouble to, to organize this scheme and get things rolling because it, it will be a little financial benefit to you when you renew your insurance, so thanks for that, Jan. And er, unless there's any last questions I think that's about it. No I want to get back to see the sheep at nine o'clock. Thanks ever so much for coming in That's alright, I've en I've enjoyed I'm just sorry that a few more people didn't turn, at least there's more Yeah. than two . To be to be honest i I, I, it's been, the presentation I've given tonight has been slightly different, it's the first time I tried it and it was really successful. Mm. I don't know how you felt about it. do that with two hundred people No. in the No. Er it has to be a small group. Er It's not the fact we live on a council estate, more likely to have No it's not fact that normal go up the private estates, this is probably your first time on a council estate,the bloody hell it's come from. I know Actually I checked out all about who was walking down to the telephone kiosk and asked all the questions about the area so that I Well you know. anyway that. Yeah they are. Yeah. I was in the Lion, fortnight ago, Sunday dinnertime and lads had been on this er bike ride, you know for some children Mm. They parked their two bikes outside the round door over at the Lion, came in, one ordered two drinks and he said I'll just nip across to phone. Alright, come back and the had gone. aren't they ? I mean there's a shop just here agri erm does agricultural machinery and repairs and that. He gets broken into regular. Mm. Yeah,gets broken into regular, cigarettes and booze. Well when I was here they were dealing with somebody er for stealing salmon out of Yeah the Co-op. Co-op. Yeah, yeah. And that was a real Oh it happens regular down this Oh well that's because nobody takes any notice about That, that was, that was a real big job, the salmon thefts, it were quite funny,they were going in all sorts of shops, just stealing salmon. Yeah. That's all they stole. The, the salmons were expensive I didn't realize how expensive it was. wee you see that they, they lost a lot of Yeah well this before . big display up of salmon, you know he took allowed to take as much as you can. Right. No we get we get a lot of erm sort of similar questions I'm no I'm trying I'm trying to be it's only just me. The company haven't asked me to do it it's just er erm just a personal thing. Mhm. Also make sure I'm doing the right thing as well. Erm right purpose of the discussions, I don't call them interviews er because it's a self employed position and er you know we're not offering quote a job unquote. Mhm. Er business opportunity I suppose would be the better Mhm. er way of er describing it. Erm but er unless I I may repeat one or two of the things I'd have said on the phone I'm bound to do that, er the three things that are gonna be decided here today really is you if you and I erm you've got inside information of course, er if you and I agree that er is the is the platform for you to earn some good money. Er secondly which environment er you feel comfortable with. And I have to say that's a luxury that most recruiters don't have but whoever walks through this door I I you know providing all the other things jell erm I have the luxury of offering five companies in which er an individual can go into. Whereas some er normal recruiting is one person one job and That's it. hard luck to the rest. It's not quite that way. Er where did as a matter of interest where did John I did I interview John or did I Yes you did it was er the advertisement I'd seen or very similar in the Scotsman newspaper and I must admit when he got all the information I thought damn I should have gone for that myself . Okay fine. Well here's your chance. And one thing that that will generate when you have er erm er I don't think we've got any husband and wives but I think we've got one or two partner and friend or partner er relationships they usually get in competition with each other. That that does us all the world of good. Yes. Quite competitive so yes I'd Okay. agree with that. Right now I've got a bit of background Mhm. obviously erm I've ju all I've got down here is local newspaper advertising five years which would have been enough er Mhm. for me to have er I I tell you what I do get concerned about Lynda is somebody who can't spell their first name. Oh god which is me what have I done? Can I borrow that? It's all right I'm only I'm being facetious there. No you shouldn't it is an error. How easily it's done though. It's a laughing joke at work. There was an advertisement that came up, Adults learning how to spell. And all the guys at the back the T T S put my name down for it because they had great hilarity Oh really? about my spelling so. Er is that Lynda Jane? Yep. Oh that's the same two names as my daughter Lynda Jane. Spelt the same too oh no they're not. You've got a Y. Mhm it's Welsh my spelling . And she's got a Y in her Jayne strangely enough. Right okay what I this will be the first time I've had a look at er a little bit more of your background so erm while I'm doing that, although you may have already inside information, I I guess you'd seen the brochure before had you? Yeah I'd read the brochure. Okay. Erm but you may not have seen er No. the range of products that we do. Erm the folders are at the top Mhm. er there so you may or may not be familiar with those of course er with your er connection with John. Erm have have a look through those I I'll while you're looking at those I'll still ask you erm er some questions Certainly no problem. and erm particularly in relationship of course to your erm your advertising. Remind me had John done advertising? Erm no. He'd actually been on the receiving end of recalling them. Oh ha ha. Well that's it. Get friendly with the client. Now you have okay so you have to give erm er you're in an employed status at the moment Mhm yeah. so you have to give four weeks. Yep. Er if you She's quite she's quite a stickler for that erm I've got Are they? I've got holidays to take so she may allow me to take that as part of my resignation. But I thought I'd be safe in putting that down. Okay well you'll probably know erm that of course we can start people immediately if they were Mhm. but er we obviously recognize that if people have to resign and er from a salaried position. What do you feel about going from employed to er commission only self employed? Well I actually been on commission only before er Yellow Pages when I started with well a Oh right. basic of about eight and a half of something Mm. and sort of within of me starting there they bought out a new contract which was commission only. So the only they were giving you was a car and expenses. So you know it was up to you to sort of prove yourself from from there. Okay. Erm I'm not bothered about being self employed. In fact I'm actually allowing me to write my off and my expenses and Yes sure there are doing things so there are advantages erm and quite honestly if erm er the way I put it is that salary company car and BUPA and all that sort of thing Mhm. is only commission in another form. That's right and and they can take that away from you just as soon as Well exactly what happened to me erm But can I just pick up on Mhm. nationality Yep. er Australian. It doesn't sound too bad, not too bad, too much now erm unless your surname's Keating. Erm a no problem with er work permits and things like that? No. You've got residential er I've got dual nationality. Okay fine. Right. We we've had one or two hiccups so I always ask about that. Okay. Right well obviously that those last five years have been the er the important ones for us. Mhm. Now you've got erm the Press er as a reference Yes she's my direct boss. Okay obviously you wouldn't want us to do anything about that until you resign I guess. Exactly yes. I'll put a I'll put a circle round the no and there that's for my own benefit. Okay so you've given you've given us erm the same company as erm that mm that may present a problem with us. Would you be able to get a get us another reference? Probably the only thing is obviously I've been there a while now so any previous employment and the people that were there aren't there any longer. Erm in fact don't do Yellow Pages any more it's I B T No no yes. Erm so that's why I've put down the two. I mean I can get obviously personal references Yep. or people I've dealt with Okay. Er I I don't think that's going to be a major problem with us. Erm your reference probably is John anyway. Oh god Oh yeah what would what would he say? All right. Okay well I'll asterisk that for my own benefit as well the four weeks bit. Erm yep. Er the proven track record in the selling advertising that's fine. Now we er er you I here once again I'm gonna repeat myself Mhm. erm possibly that I would have emphasized er the fact that we don't do quote fact to fact selling Mhm. of advertising Mhm. we are really er I'm preaching the company policy and also something I know that er works Mhm. is that we do make sure that people know everything on the phone so. Erm I've circled, Have you qualified sales by telephone as I can't believe you haven't Well it depended er the reason I left that blank as I wondered companies take that meaning different things. Such as is it a lead that's come in and been qualified by a sale. Is it been a cold call and you've qualified it by getting an advertisement out there or is it qualified by actually getting the money in your hand. Well I haven't done the third one . But I've done the other two. Right no qualifying in in in er I will tell you what the erm er sort of policy on that or opinion on that is that if you have got er a closure on the phone. Mhm. Now you must have at some time or other in advertising closed the deal on the phone. Oh yeah mhm. Well that's that's what we mean by that. Right. I have I would say that most of the people who answer yes who have been in say for instance home improvements Mhm. direct er double glazing and things like that, they will put yes. Whereas we think Yeah. it's more towards the no. Yes. Because they cannot discuss the requirements on the phone. Mhm. In other words they can't tell price because they measure up and all things That's right. like that. So that's that's what that's er in fact I always qualify people on that answer even though it's it's right down the bottom here I say what do you what's your interpretation. And I er I can't believe that you haven't er very presumptuous of me to put yes round your you know but you'd left it er so but I've no problem with that. Three things that we do decide I've already said, whether you and I feel that this is a platform for you. Certainly which environment which company erm and there are only five of the companies that the. Area health authorities we're not looking for up here. Mhm. And when. Yeah. Most of those we can answer straight away. You've got your four weeks thing there. Mhm. That could come forward. Yep. Erm I have no doubt in my own mind that you would be able to erm launch into this without any problem because of your experience. So having got that first one out of the way Mhm. the last one we know is constricted by where you are at the moment. Mhm. If you can put away the fact that John has already er Yeah. introduced you may be er in some ways to us, which would you prefer to be in. Which which company if I was to give you a choice, and the luxury that most recruiters don't have. To be honest it would be between the portfolios as you call them the the folders and erm probably that the golfing thing. The reason I'd probably go for the estate agency is cos I deal with estate agencies in where I am. Right okay. So you've got a you've got a background So I feel a bit of comfort there. You've got a history. So okay then I've got confidence. But that's that's exactly why I ask that question if you're confident . But again it's slightly different because their having what I can gather, I mean cos John's not discussed it very much and he's very much involved in Sure. in his assignment done, is that everything else there the outside cover but everything else is up to you to make sure the inside is filled. Absolutely. Cos that's entirely different. That because I've used those before not for golfing or anything like that but just as a general map of reference or When you say those you mean the golf cards? Yeah. Erm and I've found them quite useful. That that type of idea. Right. But probably because I'm comfortable I would say the estate agency. Right. Well er er erm the the whole point of about asking that sort of question is that er I in my own mind I know where I think Yeah. it might be a good idea. But in the end er if I can put you somewhere where you're gonna be happy to work Yeah get more out of me . Er now we've got but we do have two products there of equal standing in terms of product er sorry of of erm salary potential Mhm. remuneration Yeah. earnings whatever you like to say money. Mhm. Erm now John's on folders but there is another product range and that's the er This one. yeah the postal wallets . I found that quite intriguing cos I can remember getting these sent out to me by G A when I was moving house. Well G A be based in Perth of course is er one of our major clients up here. Mhm. Er and once again they they they're all part of estates division and er you know they're as equally valua valuable to the er Yeah yeah. It would be a bit difficult to choose between either of them because they both present. Erm I know some companies actually sell send the large ones out Yes. cos I've seen that as well and friends give me Well then but I had one of these. Yes they're not really meant to be sent out Yeah. I have to say though first of all especially if they have the larger version Mhm. the er the bigger one the half A three, it erm they are meant really to be targeted for people coming through that they can hand information to. That's of course exactly why we introduced the er postal wallets. Well thing is people are moving to an area they may be given some information by their company but Mhm. unless you do your research you don't know anything about it. That's right. They're both excellent. Both Okay well how do you let me ask how you feel. Because we know the the connection with John. John's on folders I mean would you feel comfortable in working in the same group as him? You'd still be in estates division Yeah. but Wouldn't particularly bother me because erm I've always managed to distract my professional and my personal career. The thing is you said it would probably make us quite competitive toward each other you know. Yes. If you if you go out for the kitchen you know or whatever it is Okay. but Erm No personal grievances or anything. All right. No no no I it just it just sometimes er you know all right. Because erm there is a sort of competition between the two products Mhm mhm. you know obviously. Erm but in the end it's all estates division anyway. Yeah. Okay. I mean would you would you shall we home in on the folders? Er Or the postal wallets. Postal wallets I don't know from experience but I'm told it's supposed to be easier. That's a good phrase in advertising . Everything's easy when you've never done it before. No yeah I I mean I've sold I've sold advertising on the medical practice booklets but er Aha aha. To be honest both are going to a certain type of market Mhm. Erm They're both doing the same Yeah in fact they're both doing the same in terms of One is somebody's walking through the door to pick up information Yep. and one is being sent out in a way Yeah. The other major difference of course we'll print may be three thousand of the folders but thirty five thousand of the er others That's what I was thinking. Obviously your distribution will be much greater. Yes er what what er the pitch I think in fact I've heard them say this er because I've been out with two of the top fliers up here Mhm? erm is that er in the case of the postal wallet you're in effect presenting the prospective house buyer with their business card every time you Mhm send them out. So you could send out a dozen business cards now Mhm. you couldn't pay anybody Mhm. to stand at the door of the rec of an estate agent That's right. erm you couldn't pay them ten pound a week Mhm. and hand out a business car And if they were doing their own mailing themselves er mailshot, they'd be lucky to get between one and two percent reply. Yeah right. Whereas that is dedicated market. Let's have a look er this is the information pack that you take away. Well once again you may have seen all this before. No. Well John's kept this to himself. Oh right. Get the papers away. Now in terms of the division Mhm. erm they both are f er form estates division. However more recently they they started to do things sort of separately in including a separate training. Right. Now at one time I used to say here you are here are the two products when you go on the training course it'll be decided at the end of the training course which product you'll go on. Mhm. And it wasn't arbitrary it was where we needed somebody at that time. Now that's changed slightly on the basis that er we will tell people before they go now. In other words we have selected the company in which they work. It's postal or folders. Mhm. But there wouldn't be any point in me going through both sets No. if we're just gonna be talking about Yeah. Okay. However there is one thing that could hiccup there. Just when you say however or but it means there's gonna be a problem. Is that if we took you on if we if we agreed that it my postal wallets might be a good idea for you and you were to delay coming into the er into the company by a week, it could change which company you go into. Yeah. But in February that even that's changing where there gonna be a training course for each of these products every week. So I suppose I'm introducing something that would only exist if you started next week. Yeah. Which we know you can't. But I still have to decide today where to put you or where we where you feel comfortable. Postal wallets or folders. Difficult. Well I I know I'm putting you under a bit of pressure here on the basis that erm it's lovely to be able to have a choice. Mhm. Now if I was to say erm er if I would have no doubt of course if if I didn't know about your connection with John. If I put that aside I would say let's put you on erm postal wallets. Mhm. That does appeal to me because it's nothing you're not particularly competing to something like Yellow Pages or anything like that. It's something entirely on its on. Yeah it is in that sense I suppose it can't be almost unique. It is in that sense and you need product because I don't think we have any competition on this at all. We do on the folders albeit The first thing people are gonna say is, Well I've not seen one so you send one out to them. Yes. And there's no doubt about it. I've had one of these through the post myself and read it. Mhm. And looked at the advertising out of curiosity to see who would advertise. Well at some time or other it sticks. Yeah. Now these when they're received through the post of course not necessarily retained Mhm. Put aside. But it's it's they're put aside and they're still used as a reference I understand. But it's repetitive. Mhm. That you'll get er a number of er. There is another spin off for the estate agent of course Mhm? that if this comes through the post, I'll give you an example. I've just put my house on the market in York I've chosen the if erm that's that's you know the whole taking the whole scene into consideration, but if I was in Bournemouth for instance and buying a house in York and I said I phone three or four estates agents and said, Look please send me information through the post. And the information came in that Yes and you you feel much more confident Yeah. and then you start of cou then you say right erm er let's keep hold of this information so these are retained and there's also a benefit to the estate agent, and there's the G A one which of course is er by coincidence is the Aberdeen one but of course we er you know we have them all around the country. Shall we home in on these? Mhm yeah. Yes? Definitely. I think so. You get to take this away with you. Let's have a look at the Aberdeen cos I did work on the Aberdeen Oh did you? What's that a erm a paper Paper the pages. Yeah. Right. Now erm you will already know and I certainly would've told you on the phone that er you are not responsible for setting the assignments up. You don't go round knocking on doors at the estate agent. Mhm. Er we have a marketing group that er already takes care of that. Mhm. Erm and when the assignment er that you are sent or when the assignment comes to the top of the pile they look around the er organization and say who is the most suitably er geographically er situated and who is the most available who is gonna be available. Mhm. You and the management will agree that you're coming to the end of that assignment and you get you get a new one. As you know it's con it's continuity of assignment. And er some of the things that er all assignment details are sent to the to the estate agent not to home. Right so so no mail in connection with the assignment is sent to your home it's always sent to the er. And when you arrive at the er estate agent there there is an envelope with all different sort of information in t in there. Erm that is I'm gonna have to take that back to the company because that's a prime example of what you don't put in. I knew there was something wrong as soon as I saw Of course yeah. Yeah and when I it's gonna be nice to be able to send take that back provided all all of them have got that one in. Oi oi oi. Right let's have a look and see if we can yeah I can I can see that's Yes. all right. That means that that pack is null and void there. Erm that's inside plus other information about the assignment er waiting for you. And you give that sort of thing to the estate agent. Now we've been doing these or working with estate agents for twenty years. We publish this newspaper here the estate agents Mhm. and news so we're not exactly strangers. And they'll they'll anybody new in the estate agent in sta in staff terms they'll let them look at that and say well that's what Lynda 's here er sorry I beg your pardon Yeah Lynda 's here here for. And er there will also be details about er the targets that we set for that particular project. And that has been determined by our marketing executive who has signed up the estate agent. This is what we look at in terms of er target of erm the er wallets we're going to print and that is determined, not quite sure what the measurement is for estate agent it's something to er to do combination of the number of peop er number of mailings they've done in the last er twelve months and also the number of houses they have on their their books. I think tho those are the measurements. Yeah. And that's put . Now those that those are the numbers that we guarantee to print. Now Right. that doesn't mean to say that we will only print those Mhm. it means that that's the minimum. Now internally, internally within , that automatically generates a target that we want from that assignment. Mhm. And there's the target for go to go for. It's not necessarily erm a target if you don't get it hard luck er that's the end of your s your time with us, it's just a target that we would like we know that we're gonna clear all our costs out of that first year. But there is erm a cut off point where we know we have covered that. Mhm. So if you're successful in achieving the full target with a full postal wallet then we everybody's happy and you've earned a lot of money. Now we have erm in fact this is an exception. This is the erm er we start bonus payments at four thousand pound on postal wallets Mhm. the others start at four and a half. But it's that figure there that I think we need to concentrate on as far as good bonuses are concerned. Because every erm slot above that all revenue above that we will pay an extra fifteen percent. We pay all those at proof stage. Right. Now that's that can be sometimes erm eight to ten weeks after the assignment's finished. Mhm. We pay them at proof stage because that's the second time we get any money from the client. Right. Let's have a look at this year's price list er it says nineteen ninety three but I say it's carried on as far as we know er there aren't any at the moment increases. And if er when you arrive on an assignment every assignment has a new one of these and in fact it's a blank. All right. All right? Mhm. It gives the position numbers the sizes erm and the price. So if you can line these prices up you'll see that the top is always gonna be people always read from the top down. And there's a very important and most people can't understand why we could possibly sell the flap until of course you realize that that's taken off Oh yeah. and that drops down. And when anything drops down like that the eyes are drawn straight to it. And that's why it is a prime slot as well. But if you look down here, if somebody wanted to buy the the flap inside and out they would pay twelve hundred pound. So that would be the most expensive one. Right yeah. But in in in fact I think you'll find that most people buy one or the other or even yeah. Mhm. Okay? Mhm. You are allowed an immediate ten percent discount if you want on this product but Mhm. We have people sales people that are always discounting but er well when I say we the world has. But you give mon you give your own money away. It might not be so tempted on this again. But er it's there. It could be towards the end of your assignment you want to fin wrap it up get one la one last slot and you say, Yeah you can have a ten percent. Mhm. Here's an example. If you sold just one to eight on a flap that would be a tar er that would be a total revenue of six thousand pound. That's what you would earn with bonuses. Mhm. It's not a bad deal is it? And how long does each assignment usually take? Well we have in our contract two to three weeks. Fifteen working days. That's our contract with the estate agent. Mhm. And quite honestly they get a bit edgy if you stay overstay your mark so. Yeah. We're talking fifteen working days. Now that can be achieved of course may be quicker. Mhm. We hope hope it is because if you take three weeks to do that it dilutes Mhm. But if you do the whole thing and I'm Yeah. you know as I say I've not worked in this division but I I know that these have been fully sold, that's the sort of money and once again that has to be done in three weeks. So we're not far off our nine hundred pound a week. No. Not far off we are right on it. That's what we're looking for people to earn. Er erm John's in his early stage and anybody that needs start . We've just had somebody go out and sell four and a half thousand pound in one week Mhm. on his first assignment in his first week out there. And he didn't have a background in selling advertising space. There's some people just either strike lucky or they're good. I don't think you can be that lucky Mm. I think you have to have something as well. Okay? Yeah. So I'll leave that with you. We will pay, once again you may be privy to have seen this other . We will pay your commissions with pleasure providing you do one or two things for us. Mhm. Er I will have explained er er I certainly would've explained on the phone that er part of the contract requires them to give us a list of prospective advertisers. Right. It really warms it up. Now one of the things that it must be very tempting to do is say, Yippee I've got my list and go dashing in and phone everybody in sight Mhm. without any background information on the er sell that has to be qualified. Yeah. If I was to er ask you to er just for the next ten minutes to start listing out the advertisers that you think might go into these, my guess is you'd only get twenty five percent Mhm. of the categories that and that's just some of them. Yeah. And you wouldn't think of most of those. And that's because we tend to prejudge who will or will not go in. Yellow Pages everybody gets a free entry so there's already a warm up situation. Mhm. Er free lineage anyway. No you see that's debatable because you actually charge business line rates so your entry's not free. Oh okay so we're paying what you're saying is Yes so you're paying it in directly but people don't think that way. No and you're not encouraged yeah not encouraged to point that out to them anyway. Okay so that list, in fact that's what it looks like when it comes into us. All right. I'm sorry looks like that but er Yeah. and filled out. Now those can rep be er somewhere between mediocre and excellent. Mhm. Depends on how much of a relationship they've got. It depends on how seriously they're taking their product. And that's why it's important to sit down and qualify it. Say, well come on you've only put ten names down there. If it means business for them I should think they should want to do more . They should. If they've got any sense at all they should be I mean they're getting it for free except for the telephone calls you might use Mhm. and some cups of coffee or whatever. Erm you'd have thought that they would have taken the trouble to erm you know to do some bit of arm twisting. Yep. Some of them do of course. Funny handshakes and whatever. But to get why when er why we want to pay your commission and er it it's because we are looking for three pieces of paper Mhm. or documentation. This is erm just to demonstrate that it's the same contract across all of our six companies. Mhm. Unless you're colour blind you'll see that they are different colours. Yeah. In fact that's the one for this company. Read upside down I can't Publications looks after postal wallets. Mhm. And I know I'm going to reinforce how important it is to tell people all this up front before you go round. Cos one two two or three things associated with this contract if you don't if you surprise them with erm with them face to face and you don't tell them on the phone they'll blow you out. Yeah. They'll use it as an excuse. And I'll home in oh once again erm sorry I'll I'll repeat to you but I'll I'll reinforce that Yeah. all this is demonstrated in much more er detail on the course. And if you've got a partner that's doing it as well then you've got the best of both worlds. But if you don't tell them that first of all you want a contract. Mhm. If you don't tell them that you'll want a deposit cheque of thirty five percent of the first year's payment depending on what you charge them Yeah. for the ad. If you don't tell them that you need to pick that up and if you don't tell them that you need a banker's order to take the rest of the payments out Mhm. they'll they'll say, Just a minute Lynda you didn't tell me that Yeah I know you're covering yourself. One beauty of it is now with Yellow Pages for them being able to pay things monthly, they're used to giving signing contracts for things like that. So some them could be pre-educated anyway. Oh right. And tend to assume I have to do this anyway. Yes. There I must admit I've never I didn't have any surprise that I was I wanted a a deposit cheque. No. A lot of There's som people don't like asking for that though. Yeah. But if you ask for it face to face they'll blo they'll say well no I don't do you didn't say that. Mhm. If you had told me that you wouldn't be here. That's the that's the reply you can get. Mhm yeah. We also point out to them of course that the second er portion of the first year's payment is taken out through banker's order. That introduces the banker's order Mhm. idea. And the sales pitch of course is that you don't take the second year's payment until a year later. Mhm. Some people still think that they've got to pay for the whole Yeah. two years up front. Now er that's that generates two of the three documents that the cheque and er the important thing er about the cheque of course is that if it's two signatories, and a lot of companies of course require that, we need two signatories on the banker's order. And you can't go you needn't go round until they're both together. Mhm. Cos if you left that with the first signatory you'd never see it again. Yeah. They use it as an excuse. Mhm. Er the other er er poi er piece of paper we want of course is copy. Now I'm preaching to the converted here in terms of you you'll appreciate we need copy. Just to show you once again all colour coded. Mhm. All right. Very simple document. Most of our advertisers have already been in some form of advertising before. And we're happy we once again say on the phone, Well what I want tomorrow is a deposit cheque, contract, bankers order and if you've got copy available I'll take that a juggle it around as you want. Right. This is the document that we send in with any copy. Mhm. If they've never advertised before and it is a rare occasion but it does happen, we we put our own thoughts down there we discuss that with them. Right. Do we actually draw them up? Or do the copy department deal with it the copy department ? No we've got we've got twenty or thirty girls back there hammer and tongs. We've got six months work just wai you know just going through the process at the moment. Mhm. It's amazing. We're taking people on in the copy group and we've got twenty years' worth of adverts. Mhm. Plenty to show people. Yeah. But they will show you on the training course how they like that drawn out at the bottom. Yeah. Compliment slip and letter heading you probably used to ask for ask er asking for. If that's not part of the three not part of the deal that you send in that will not cause a major problem. They'll just say well it will help if you can go back and get one all right. Especially if they've got a logo or something it's a good way to sort of ask for it. Yeah. Imagine having to lift that from a Yeah. photocopy you'd have more jagged edges It doesn't come out yeah. So you you are aware of that. Do you charge for adverti for actual copy? Copy? No we wouldn't it's all paid for in there. The most important one. Once again the old colour code comes into operation. There's the there's the colour that Publications wants. And I've written one out there er just to give you an example. Mhm. And er hopefully John's making plenty of these out as well. Every sales consultant, as we call them now not reps, erm has his or her own unique number. Mhm. Each er assignment has a unique number. You just have to list out the erm adverts, position, advertiser, estate agent, town. Er what I've just described is a complete deal so that Mhm. is ticked down there and I'm not aware of what companies have special arrangements on estates. But I was on medical and BUPA hospitals had special arrangements where they didn't have to have a cheque and where didn't have to have a banker's order. Right. What they did have to have was er an official company or order I was going to say for two years' advertising. Right. Bonuses are paid at proof stage. Every two months a list of ass er the numbers er of assignments that have been proofed comes round to the sales execs and that's when they can claim their bonuses. But they have to be claimed and they're not paid automatically. Right so you're given a date on which you should claim them by do you? Yeah well as soon as that comes out on the list you can put in your claim the next Right. week. However a lot of people do leave them there. It's it's you don't forfeit them, it's safe, but they accumula er they they have a cumulative effect and you pay tax or what You have to decide whether it's safer in your bank or ours Yeah. in terms of spending. Spending. A ninety day account you can't get access to . Well yeah that's it. In effect we're we're erm er we're safeguarding it for you if you want to. But it's entirely up to you. It's your money so Yeah. That's it. Any questions so far? Not really it's quite self explanatory because I was wondering where you got the business and that from. Whether it was just totally cold calling or it's referrals or whatever. No. I what you'll find of course that a lot of assignments on estates now are resales. Mhm. So you should be halfway through your battle if you're given an assignment erm that that is a resale Mhm. then you have all those already Mhm. Within the first of contact . all those to go for . Those are the first ones you contact but you still have to sit down with one of the estate agents and say, Well look what sort of business do you give them? You know have you given have you been able to give business to these people because if you have that'll help me I understand Oh yeah. I happen to understand mister advertising client that er you and the estate agent have been working very well together. Mhm. Yeah it's been great. And you'll get people of course who say it didn't work. Mhm. Oh regardless you'll get people saying that. But they you'll also get a list a computerized list of these advertisers and the name to whom we sold Mhm. two years previously. Right. So you don't go in you don't go in and say, Well you've you've advertised before who do I speak to? Mhm. You you get Tim 's name if that's the guy on the computerized list and say that's who our contact was Yes cos that's easy to round if there's only oh sorry that's the last name of contact we had . Absolutely. We dealt with him two years ago and we'd like to speak and and we're we're looking for a repeat Yeah. Okay? Mhm. Good. So can we calculate now when you can start? Right er On the basis that er if if you've seen enough here now Lynda to to be persuaded, and I hope we have, persuaded you that you'd like to come in with us then you will be resigning at some time I guess. I like advertising with a product I believe in so Okay. All right? I'm halfway there. You're there. And I have to say it must be a benefit to have a partner who's also involved. Mhm. Oh yeah. You can you can really help each other out. I've seen even two consultants who male consultants who live either part of erm er in Fife and one over here. They talk to each other and say, Well look I've got I've got this guy how did you approach that? It really in fact they do that more I think in estates than they do the other Mhm. And if you're erm do you reside at the same address? Yeah. That's all right. See how delicate I'm going to be . Erm then that has to be a help. Yep. You've got erm your domestic I was going to say as long as you don't both have two days at the same time . Well yes. Well that actually might help. If you had a down day the other one would say well okay I let's go let's go and Well this is it cos sales drown our sorrows . Well you're either sort of scraping off the ceiling cos you're as high as a kite Yes. or you're almost suicidal. Yes. It's one extreme or the other. So Yeah I'm sure it is. Right so are we working four weeks from this week? Erm no it's more likely to be a calendar month that she works on and fortunately February has four weeks in it this year for where our pay day is so I would be putting it in sort of like Feb first. So so March the first is about the time? Yeah. Okay. Now if that obviously we'd be delighted if you Possibly before then but if I work on that then I can advise you Right. of any changes. Yeah bring bring it forward if you delay it they get a bit edgy. Now March the first is a Tuesday. Mhm. The course starts on a Monday. Right. So can we say February the twenty eighth. Mhm yeah. That's about that's gonna be about it. Yeah it should be. There especially if you if you say well I'll take a day's holiday. Yeah. Right? Well what can they do about it. So February the twenty eighth. this piece of paper. It's a bit big for where it should be. I know that has to be with that. Now this is erm until the new documentation comes out this is this applies to er. At one time we used to start the training courses on on both wallets and folders on a Tuesday. Right. It is now on Monday. So we're gonna put Monday twenty eight two ninety four today being the twenty fifth. On the Friday before which is the oh it will be the twenty fifth won't it? Mhm. I would like you if you can read all there is there John er John's had the same documentation but it might be slightly different. And that is okay er da de da de da got to be changed but we it's because you're going on wallets. Is the training course the same thing as what John was on in as much he had to get through the training course to get a position? Yes. No problem for you. Yes I'm sorry that I'm having to scribe all this out but er the new documentation they've changed the erm that's a Monday sorry about this That's okay. But I don't want any confusion it it is not the same as when John joined us. And the doc new documentation just wasn't quite available for me to bring with me. That's three that's da de da de da okay on the follow oh dear or dear me get writer's cramp at this rate . Thursday Friday Now just check put the new piece of paper yes Publications Okay I'm just er bringing this up to date so Monday Tuesday Wednesday evenings in fact you need er sorry Sunday Monday and Tuesday okay. I think that's more or less it. Sorry I've had to juggle that we've got some new documentation just being prepared for that but that's being er. If you can read this end to end Mhm. Oh this does seem a bit silly but that's Monday to Wednesday now and that is Thursday and Friday. Will you understand what those abbreviations Yes yes. are? Good I'm glad I've got a an intelligent person. And that's where you'll be. In fact that is now Sunday departing Wednesday. Okay? Mhm. Good. And the Parkwater is there. Right. Okay? If you read that through I will be grateful. And there's one other thing that expense form which I think is here good. This just lets you know that we will pay you travel costs to and from Mhm. Okay? When you go out on territory which you do on the on the Thursday and Friday Yeah. with somebody Mhm. it may be that you have to stay away. Right okay. All right? Wherever possible they try not to have that but you may have to stay away. Mhm. We will pay your accommodation and a and a meal Mhm. to the value of thirty pound. If you do stay away I can tell you the trainer will know where you can get a deal like that. Yeah. Okay? No problem. You sign to say that you understand that. If you stayed in a nice hotel for a hundred quid a night I'm afraid you will only get thirty. Mm. I'm going to put the A on it this time. And today's date's the twenty fifth. Now if you don't my me asking you've taken John's surname I guess have you or No. is that just. Oh I beg your pardon. Sorry. Is that a coincidence or What? You've both got the same surname yes? No he's got I'm Oh I beg your pardon. You know I There we go. Yes I suppose it sounded the same to me. Oh that's sorry that's your copy. Right okay. Now that's that's yours. Yep. Now did you want to take this as well because normally we give the whole pack away Yeah I wouldn't mind cos a lot of Yeah go on then. the time I'm not seeing him. Yeah sure. Now I've got application form, expenses, my notes and I'll just write up there estates twenty eight two oh I must put wallets down here. Estate W twenty eight two. So how many people are you expecting to recruit today then? Oh I should say four or five but across the different companies. Mhm. I'm one. Yeah. This isn't fair. They're all It's not fair. If I'd have said, By the way at the end of this I have to take your photograph it would've put you off. I would've walked out I think. Okay. Well John knows you have to have that. You can smile. He never told me this. Didn't he? Horror. Horror. Okay. Right erm good that's tidied everything up then. Mhm. Thanks very much for coming over. Okay, you can use a P S P as an endowment for mortgage purposes, and it works virtually the same if you're arranging a mortgage now for a new client, for a new property, the chance are you want the Mortgage Master Policy, because that does the whole thing for you, okay, that's what its ideal purpose is. Erm, where you might use P S P, is when you've got a client now, who's anticipated buying perhaps something in the future. Okay, so they're buying now, then you want a Mortgage Master, because that's what its purpose is. But you might be talking to a client, says, but at the moment, I've got no need, erm, or I've got n no intention of buying now, but I might be buying in a year or two year's time. This is where a sales idea could come in, but for the right reasons it could be good, but also, for the bad reasons, it could be totally wrong. Without trying looking very heavily at these type of sales, where savings plans have been sold for future mortgages, erm, the clients are left thinking it's building up money for their, for their deposit, for their legal fees, and it guarantees them a mortgage at sometime in the future. Mm. Okay, now putting both bits aside, if we're making sure, right okay, if we're making sure that the product is being sold for the right reasons, i.e. the client is separately saving for deposit, for house moving fees, legal fees, all the other fees, and they could still afford to do this, then I believe it's a good thing that you can suggest to your clients. Mm. Mm. And it's gonna work along the lines of well, if we're looking at a typical endowment mortgage, yeah, normally they run for twenty-five years, don't they. Okay, do they, do they run for twenty-five because we like them to, or because we can't afford to pay them any sooner. Usually because that's the minimum time we can afford it over. If we can reduce that term, at no extra cost, surely be an advantage. Mm. Okay. Borrowing the money, let's, I mean, I don't know, fifty thousand, let's say, put a figure on it for a moment. We've got a future, perhaps aspiration to have a fifty thousand pound mortgage to buy the house, the flat, or whatever they want, in, let's say, two year's time. If we consider starting the endowment here but presumably gonna run twenty-five years in fact you're gonna finish in year twenty-three when they borrowed the money, aren't they, so they've only borrowed the money for twenty-three years. Mm. Mm. What the repayments a month on a fifty thousand pound mortgage? It's three ninety-five. About three hundred. Three hundred and ninety five. Three ninety five. So,f four hundred call it. You better. You say that right from the heart. I say that Is that, is that gross or net. Yeah. So that's nine thousand six hundred your client's not now going to pay, isn't it. Yeah. Yeah. It saved two years repayments at the end of the mortgage, because endowments matured here, saving those last two years, purely because we started paying in two years before we actually took the mortgage out. Yeah. Yeah. Make sense. Do you get a six per cent bonus on a Mortgage Master as well as the Oh, yes, you do, right. Well, they're exactly the same. Thank you. What's what's the technical difference between the two. Very little. What is the very little. Is it the allocation, then. No. No, it's the same. Yeah, I mean, there's some slight erm, differences when it comes to re mo moving again, and that sort of thing. Oh, But more of that we can move into the mortgage course. Yes, right, right, yeah, that's the difference, isn't it. That's right, there's some slight technicalities Their guaranteed increases if you move, yeah, But That's the difference. none that would make any difference at this stage for selling it. Yeah. But again, I emphasize, it must be sold in the right situation. case. If the client is putting money for a deposit, the savings and legal fees, all that separately, and they can still afford to do this, Yeah. then it's worth looking at the idea. What about somebody who's wanting to top up, like, say their own, their own, their in the property already, they just want erm, an extra top-up. Right, I mean, you you might find a client whose perhaps taken out a further mortgage, for, you know, some house improvements or something, Yes, yeah. and they've got now a deficit of, life cover there and extra, again you take out one of these for it. Yeah, I've got a client who Do that then. We sold a P S P too. They had a mortgage with the Woolwich and an endowment for a fixed period of twenty five years right after three or four years they thought they might move so, we said well take out a P S P cos that provides a savings vehicle, and if you do move you can use that as part of the mortgage increase. That's right. They made enquiries from the Woolwich, and they said no, we can't accept this savings plan, we want a proper endowment policy. So they came running back, saying this thing you sold me is a load of rubbish,Wool Woolwich say it's not good enough, you know, what's it all about. So you've got to be very careful, But when you suggest to them, they can buy a house or get a mortgage with it. That's right, yes, yeah It goes straight in, and they don't forget. What a lot of other societies will today though, will not necessarily want policies assigned to them anyway. No, no, no, quite, but they're all In years gone by, it was like ninety nine per cent Sure. of them all wanted this. Endowment assigned to them, so they would see it, they would know it, they would check it and they'd be in that position. It's only the odd one, isn't it, That's right. that catches you out. Nowadays, the majority of building societies don't want to know about, you know, well, it's up to you, we give you the money, Yeah. It's it's It's like interest over the mortgage. Well, P S P's an endowment. That's what I'm saying, you can use that. It's a whole life endowment, saving If you were buying a house, though, we do a Mortgage Master If this is something that maybe in the future, then you can't use a Mortgage Master for a, for a future house purchase, you can use the P S P. Is is there is there any erm, major diffe , is there any major difference between, as far as, in in relation to mortgage er, protection. Is there difference hold on at the back, one question Is there any major between the P S P and the er, the Mortgage Master which would,nor normally say to the client, well, I would recommend in these circumstances that you have the Mortgage Master, because it does. That's extra. The only ru , you have a Mortgage Master when you're selling the house now buying a house now. Someone just mentioned, yeah, it just sprang to mind, someone just mentioned er, the options on moving, if you, cos Totally different effect. make no difference at this stage, the only thing is, if you say, if you're buying a house now, you'll need a Mortgage Master, Yes. If you're not buying it now, you can't have a Mortgage Master, so therefore, you must have a P S P. Mm. Right,tha tha that is the only difference, yes. there the distinction, And and the other question is that you say, er, building societies aren't actually er, insisting on endowments now, I mean, what being assigned. not insisting on them being assigned. No. No. Okay. I mean, basically building societies today are saying, well there's your money, all we want you to say is that in twenty five years time or earlier, you'll be able to pay us back. How you do it, is entirely up to you. Oh, I see. Whether that money comes from a pension, a P E P, off the pools Mm. they're not really worried, as long as they've got it. Yeah, and if they don't get it, they convert into a repayments, so nothings lost, really. I see. or they take the house back notice of deposit, rather then I mean, they've got collateral in the bricks and mortar, haven't they? Yes. It's their's Yes, as you say, they could always repossess it, couldn't they, basically. Yeah, that's right. I mean, pick up David's point, you know, it's To pick up David's point now, if this is the client who's already running the house, the mortgage, it's, you know, a few years old, they want to take out a further advance, for some house improvements, or something, then obviously they now need more, so it might be at this stage we then want a P S P for the remaining, you know, ten years, eleven years, twelve years, or whatever, because they've borrowed some more money from the building society. Yeah. and the advantage it would be, for the majority of endowments you're gonna find out there for mortgage purposes, would not have living insurances attached to them. You know, we can add it to this bit. They might even want to, you know, take out a whole new one, with living insurance as well. It then comes down to affordability. Yeah. They'd like their mortgage paid off, people had a serious illness or acc erm heart attack or something, before actual maturity. Just just as a matter of interest, Graham, I was looking at the er, the rates yesterday, cos I've been paying my mortgage over ten ye , over the last eleven years, and erm, bearing in mind the premiums I've been paying before my endowments would have been er, er, you'd expect to be more recent, because I was er, young cheaper then because you were younger. Well, actually, looking at the erm, premiums in the book, and it worked out that the total I was paying out in endowments, if I got the same level of cover under the protected savings plan, over twenty five years with living assurance, it was, it was only working about seven pound more, you know, Yeah, right, and you've got all that extra benefit. and I've got all that extra benefit, and on, er, another ten years older. Right. Erm, so so they're quite competitively priced So so, what, no, if it appeals, what I'm saying is, if it appeals to me, I could imagine it would appeal to a lot of people out there. That's right, yes. That's right, then again, I think that's one of the biggest plans that you can use as your door-opener. Yeah. Yes. You know, whether you end up selling it, if that is best advice or not, Yeah. is irrelevant at this stage, Mm. Yeah. you just want something come back to the people I was talking originally in the week, that Yeah. we make something to get in, that pricks their ears up, and think, yes, I want to listen to this guy. Mm. Yeah. He's got something to offer. Mm. Yes. Okay. I mean, this next plan will also take us down that path. Whether we actually sell it or not is irrelevant, it's the fact that it might just be the hook to get inside someone's house. Mm. The question that I would raise with this plan, is Mr client, what bills do you have each month that must be paid, no matter what? Okay, so it's you and your family living in a house. as most of us do. What bills have you got each month that you've gotta pay? Mortgage. Mortgage or rent, firstly, yes. Council tax. Water. Utilities. All the variables and unvariables. Er, all the utilities, yeah. Food. Clothes. Clothing. Maintenance. Travel. Insurance premiums. Etc, etc, etc, the list can go on and on and on. There's lots there Actually, if you take the, if you, if you make the long list and then say to the client, well now, what can you do without. Tell me what you don't need, you put holidays on it, you can buy, a new new car for the wife every year, you know, all these sort of frivolities, and then say, then what can you live without, and when you start crossing them out, there's only one or two that actually go out. Right, we need to be able to have provision to pay all the bills every month. That's right. Yeah, if your self-employed, then don't forget there's tax as well, That's right, yeah, the tax. National Insurance, and all the other bits that must be paid, okay. So what dictates that we're in a position to pay those bills off. Our income. Income. So from your income, that we must have, says we can do all those things, and have our standard of living. So the question Mr client is, what happens if that disappears? What bills now don't we have to pay anymore. None. None of them. They all still want paying, then. But if you haven't got an income, how would you pay them. Great difficulty. With great difficulty. Mr client, if I can rest you assured on that point, that we could be in a position whereby you ne you never be without an income, do you think that's an important area that we look at. Mm. Yes. Yeah. It would be for you as well, wouldn't it. I'd rather fantasize on that. Okay, Health Master, is that the plan that's going to fit the bill. I thought it was the Mortgage Master. No, we've done that. A little concept, a little drawing like that, if you emphasize the wha the whole plan is about, doesn't it. Can your client live without an income, they've just convinced you that they can't, they now want to know about this Health Master. Exactly the same example for selling life assurance to the wife. Or living assurance. You know, you've got to pay all the bills. but how much do these cost, you know, and there you go. That's right. I mean, different times, like tomorrow, we actually go through lots of diagrams that we can use, Mm. to emphasize certain products. Yeah. Okay, cos it's these little diagrams that get the whole point across. Rather, you know, an hour talking about the actual product. Yes. So, we call it a P H I policy, or not P H one, P H I, for Permanent Health Insurance, that's exactly what it is Okay, so that's a Permanent Health Insurance policy. Who, who do you think would want one? Anybody who Everybody. Basically anyone with an income, isn't it. Yeah. Potentially, we've got twenty five million people out there with an income. Does it cover just housewives? Just housewives? Well, does it, does it cover housewives? No, they don't work. I tell you, it could do. Try and tell the housewife they don't work. Yeah. Walk out there in a straight line Okay so of those twenty five million, we'll find some are employed, some are self-employed, yes. Mm. Which of those two categories you think this would appeal to mainly. Self-employed. Majority, well, mainly it would be self-employed, wouldn't it. There's about three and a quarter million of those, as and when this slide was made for the self-employed. Wou would there, not be er, possibly a conflict of interest there, if er, for example, suppose it was a self-employed person. Times was hard, and he had the advantage over the insurance company of knowing that his profits might be tapering off in the near future, and he thinks, ah, I'll get, er, I'll take out a Permanent Health Insurance, based on my present income to protect seventy-five, because I know in about three or four years time, my income would have gone down to about sixty per cent of what it is, so. But you'll be ill at the time, isn't it, to be able to claim. Yeah. So when, when he's ill, he just Based on his last year's, er, earnings, yeah. But we'll deal with how much he can have, and the figures etc, later on. Yes, yes. But either way, he's still got to be ill. He's got to be ill, that's right. To be able to claim. Yeah, that's right. I'm taking it out. So, does this mean then, employed people wouldn't want this contract. No. Not at all. Certainly not Who was employed before they came here, that had erm, sickness pay from their employer for any time they were off. Oh, I have,wife. you had your hand up, how long would you be paid for if you were off sick? I I can't remember, but probably six months. Six months, exactly Nine months, yeah. Okay. Yeah, the same, yeah. Yeah, same, Six months,reducing to fifty per cent after six months. Mine was a year. Right. What you're finding is, depends normally on length of service with a company, er, but the longer someone's been there, I think th the best I've heard, and that's what I used to get, was sort of six months full salary, six months half salary, after that it was at company discretion. Yeah. Okay, now the police force, the armed services are totally a different ball-game, because they get very good pay benefits, so it's unlikely that we can help those sort of people, but, but of the normal, sort of type occupations, the best I think you gonna find, I think, is six months full salary, six months half. Unless they're sort of directors of their own company, things like that, then, you know, it could be an unlimited supply of money, basically. Depending on how much there is in the kitty of course. But that means, there's a lot of people that won't have six months full, six months half, if might be, you know, a couple of months full, a couple of months half. Now if, let's say, if we took an average of three months full, three months half salary, you know someone's got money for at least six months. But who, he would, had been in a financial problem after three months, when it drops to half pay. Yeah. Yeah. A couple, okay, after the six months when it stops, presumably we're going to be in a position of, on State Benefits. Yes. So even the employed would have a need, but it might not be so urgent, but it might not be so urgent as the self-employed guy, whose gonna need money after how long? Straight away. Straight away, isn't it, I mean, as soon as you stop laying your bricks, you stop earning your money, basically, don't you Out there in the big real world. Okay, so therefore it's gonna appeal, perhaps more so to self-employed, but even so, the employed would still need it. And, statistics would tell us, that actually twenty-five per cent of the work force have some form of income protection, which is great news. Is it adequate? Good question. That we don't know. But just looking at that figure, what does that mean, positively for us. Seventy-five per cent don't. Seventy-five per cent don't have Income Protection. Which is even better news, isn't it, for us, not for them, of course. Most people won't know they've got it anyway. Sorry. Most people won't know they've got it anyway. That's right, I mean, again, it's one of those things, it's in the benefits package, if you work for a company, you don't want to know about it until you need to claim. That's right, then you realise how little it is. Exactly right. I mean, people say, well, there's State Benefits, what's the basic state sickness benefit? Fifty fifty-six pounds ten a week. Who can manage on that. Yeah, that right. Okay, so looking at numbers of people off work, having a drink innit how many people do you think, if we looked across the country now, would we find that were actually claiming sickness, or gonna be off erm, for sick, for up a month, for up to one month. How many people do you think we'd find? A lot. Oh, a lot. Five per cent. More than that. Which is how many, what did you say, twenty-five million Twenty-five million two and a half a millionish, one point two. You're not far off, it's about one and a half million, the D S S tell us, could be off work at any time for up a month. Blimey. Now it's a lot of people, it's only a short period of time, isn't it, one month. Mm. Mm. Now how many of those, do you think, will still be off after six months. Not many. How many is not many,, I'll put a figure on it. Probably five per cent again. Thank you Say eighty thousand. No, one point two million. One point two million. He's a ventriloquist. Strewth. One point two million these are D S S statistics. That's a hell of a lot, isn't it. Still be off after six months. Malingerers How many do you think after a year? A million. Nine hundred. Who said that. They reckon a million people would still be off after a year. Now those people, even at the best we spoke of, six months full, six months half, are now becoming into a problem area, aren't they? Mm. That's a hell of a lot of people. It is a lot, innit. Yes. But it's good though. and again get you thinking. If you're ill, off work, what's the last thing you want to worry yourself with. Money. Money problems isn't it Going back to work. Going back to work. Okay, the last thing that's gonna help you get better, is worrying about money, isn't it. Yeah. Just give you an idea we've got a selection of current claims here. No need to write these down, just for information. Got a florist took a claim out January of eighty-nine, reasonably low premiums, fourteen pound, thirty-two a month. May eighty- nine, only four months later, having had, having had a finger amputated, have received monthly benefits from the time of claim up until going back to work, of thirteen thousand, four hundred and seventy-five pounds. Jesus. for a finger. No, no, that's right, She what. She got that for a finger, what about the sound levels, sorry,switch it off. If she's getting that for a finger, I'm gonna see Mr the American, and flog him a policy. I thought you said Mr Blobby. Company Director, April eighty-seven, just under fourteen pound a month premium, September eighty-nine, through chest pains, stress and angina. stress. Good excuse, innit, chest pain What a whinger. Angina's a bit more than stress, isn't it. Bit of a con. Yeah. The friendly doctor. You have to be off for a while to receive that, or straight away. Yes. Depending on we look for details, as we go through it. Teacher, March eighty-seven, low premiums. Lower risk. September ninety-two, through stress and depression My God. that one, one thousand six hundred and ninety-five pounds. That's cos she wanted paid. We've got a brick-layer. August eighty-nine, took the policy out. March ninety Here we go. nearly four times as much premium as the teacher, received pres er, premium payments of fourteen thousand two hundred. Better than laying bricks. He's cracked it. They keep paying us forty quid a month, I'm gonna get a nice fourteen and a half grand this year. Yeah, but you've still gotta be signed off sick. So he's got to have, you know, doctor's evidence . Doctor it hurts. Doctor my back hurts, here's another twenty quid. Okay, definition of the plan. What do you think wh , what do you think it is. Income replacements. Non, non qualifying, Non qualifying, unit linked, No. No, back to the future. Yeah. Joint life, no survivor. Non-qualifying, unit linked, life assurance policy, providing permanent health insurance benefits Now, all the other policies we've looked at this week were qualifying, weren't they. Yes. Yes, that's the first non-qualifying, so we'll see some different rules on this anyone like to tell what they, the meaning is behind the word permanent in permanent health insurance. You can't take it away. By Up up to the selected, up to the selected age, you can claim as many times That's right, in other words, the insurance company can't back out of the contract, providing the client is paying his premiums. So we can't decide, as regardless of how many times they claim, we can't say, enough's enough, we're not gonna honour the contract any more. Okay, so once it's signed and accepted, the client, does their part of the bargain, i.e. pays their premiums, then there's no way we can decide to opt out of the contract, So. so therefore they've got it for as long they want it. So they can claim So they can claim as many times as they, as they want. Yeah. Claim twelve times a year for the next forty years, right up until retirement age, if they wish. Yeah. We can't decide to opt out of the contract Mm. Providing the claim's legitimate, and they're doing all their bits from their side of the fence, keeping the the er, plan in operation, we can't decide we've had enough. Which is good news, I mean, from a client, they've got control over whether they keep you going or not. Blimey if your a Yes, yes. If it goes, if they, sort of pay for an excessive size, er,or what, does the company set up their own medical examination or, If we are in any way, dubious about the nature of the claim, Yeah. then we've got our own medical people or specialists we would call in, to say, talk to the client's specialist, please, between the two of you agree that we should be paying this claim or not. Otherwise, just the doctor's note is sufficient That's right. But yeah, we do get a representative from the client, i.e. his doctor or specialist or whatever, and one of our people to talk to each other, and then work out who's right and who's wrong. Is it Is the premium paid while, whilst still claiming? Er, no The premiums built in automatically. Is it. Yeah. Don't let anyone Is th , is there any ever, ever any situation which, I mean, I know in in most cases you'd obviously accept the er, the opinion of the er, claimant's doctor. But is there any situations where Abbey Life can overrule the doctor and say, we're not happy with this, we want to appoint, we want to give him a medical with our own doctor. Well, has just answered over here. Our specialist will talk to the client's specialist, and between them agree Yeah. who's right Oh yeah, no, I understood that, but I mean, I thought, could, could he actually over-rule the client's specialist, that's all I'm saying. No, I mean, we're, well I don't know, Yes. I mean, between the two specialists, to work out themselves. Yeah. and if we're finding that their specialist is inaccurate. Yeah. Yes, we would do. If our guy doesn't agree, they'll say right, you know, we'll have a look ourselves. Right. Okay so it covers not only illness, but also accident as well. so much money paid for mine. That's right. So if they're off either due to illness or accident. index linked. Yes, that's right discussed why I was asking this question, thought there might be a So do you think, then, that this policy could only cover people with an income. No. Yes. Yes. I'd say No. Yes. Yes. Yes. I'll go with the noes. No. No, because Who without an income then, could have one. Housewife. Housewife. Yeah, got a picture of wife there. Okay, imagine she's effectively not earning a tangible income. Mm. But if the housewife is unable to perform her duties, what's the husband gonna have to do? Take out time off work trade her in for a new model Swedish au pair, okay, either way, it's going to be a drain in the income to bring someone else in. Yeah. The husband to have time off work to look after the children, But if he remarries. There's gonna be a loss of income, isn't there. But if he remarries. What the au pair? If he marries the au pair, what happens then. housewife Yeah. Yes. that's covered. Could be Yes. Yes. You've either got to be, earning money, and you have a Health Master to match your salary, or you can be a housewife, Mm, interesting. for which there is a pre-set What are the limits Erm, plan. Is there a limit Yes, on, oh, thank you. You're welcome. For the housewife there is a pre-set maximum limit of five thousand, six hundred and forty pounds per annum benefit. Depends Five thousand, six hundred and forty pounds, Oh, right. That's the maximum that she can have. Five, six, four O What's that based on Anything in particular. About a hundred and eighty pound a week. Sorry. That's, that's just the figure that Abbey have said, that's the amount, they'll be happy to pay Limiting their risk. Yep Yes, erm, there are very few companies actually offering that that sort of cover. That's right. That's right. So it's, it's got a bargaining position. That's right. I mean, as you say, there's very few companies that offer any form of benefit to housewives, they're either working or they're not, they have a Health Master, or not. Yeah. That's the limit in total pounds, then. Per year. So How do they, how do they work that out, because if they haven't got an income, how do they say, well, you you know. Well, they just say, that's the amount you can have Oh you get, that's it, fixed amount. That's it, that's it that's the maximum Fixed amount. That's the maximum depending on the premium, Yes, if you gotta, if you're fully funded on the premiums if you take out Well, the premium will be driven by the amount, wouldn't it. Yeah, sure, sure. Yeah. So if you take out if they can afford the premium they can have the amount. Yeah, right, so it's not related, no Got ya. Okay, definition of disability, what they've actually got to be, to be able to claim is unable to perform any part of their normal occupation. That's why we had the foris the florist claiming Mm. for the finger amputated. She was unable to do any particular part of her job. No she was the one, that put her finger on the bows, when they tied the bows, you know. And, okay, unable to perform any part of her normal occupation and they're not doing anything else, for which they're paid, not following any other gainful occupation okay, so definition is, unable to perform any part of their normal occupation, and they're not following any other gainful employment. It's the same as the P S P wasn't it, basically. The of premium and the that's right, that's right. Erm, yes,premium, yes. So in other words, we're saying if they're off sick, erm, they decide to go out and, you know, do something else to earn some money, then they wouldn't be able to claim under their policy. Mm. Okay. They'd only normally be happy to do that, if they didn't have the policy in the first place, wouldn't they. You know, if they couldn't go and be a brick-layer, but they could sit at home, and you know, stick stamps on envelopes, or whatever, earn some money, then they might have to do that because they haven't got this plan. They've got a Health Master, they're off sick, they can claim on the plan. How do they er, work that out for a housewife. As regard to sex. Housewife has their own definition. ah right. Moving swiftly on. Housewives definition she must be confined to her home, or that of a recognised medical institution. So the doctor's definition must say, yes, she's confined to home, because of, the incapacity, whatever it may be, or she's actually gone to a recognised medical institution, hospital, nursing home, whatever it may be. So a chopped off finger's not good enough. Correct. Unless she says she can't open the front door I don't know Okay, so it's confined to home, or a recognised medical institution. Yes, it is. Just, just as a matter, a matter interest and that, Sorry Just as a matter of interest, how would that relate to to the er, claim for the housewife, who had had a finger amputated. that was the florist. Er,fl florist, rather. Oh, yes, sorry, Yes. Yes, sorry. We're talking about So they're going off their trolley Okay,clear on the two definitions. Yeah. Normal occupation, unable to perform any part of it. Not being paid by anybody else, and the housewife, you know, that are not able to leave home, or eventually in a hospital. Yeah, happy on the two. Yeah. Jolly good. What's the minimum term of a plan. No minimum No, no. No set minimum, Absolutely wrong. Oh dear. Ten years. Oh. Minimum of ten years for a plan. Is it ten years. Could be maximum. retirement, I'd say. of what age. Six sixty for female, sixty five for male. Sixty-five regardless bearing in mind we've now offered women the opportunity to earn more money from the year two thousand and ten, and not retiring until sixty-five. There's equality for you. So anybody, male or female could have a plan up until their sixty-fifth birthday. So you would take out a plan, you wouldn't specify the term necessarily, would you. Yes, you would. You'd write it to coincide with your anticipated retirement age. To to retirement age, yes, yeah, yeah. Okay, now generally, you're gonna find, I would have thought, that you're not going to get many people wanting to retire much below fifty-five. Yeah. There will be some. Okay, but again, a very small minority. But the actual plan's, erm, scope, if you like, can only allow you to write the plans to finish between fifty-five and sixty- five, the client's age. Yeah. So if the client says, I want to, I'm gonna pack up when I'm fifty, you write the plan to finish at fifty-five. You've got to start it at forty, the max you know, the last date, isn't it. The last date would be, yes. Yeah. But I mean, your looking at a twenty, thirty year old now, who says I'm gonna be packing up when I'm fifty. Yes, you actually have to write the plan to fifty-five. When he gets to fifty, if all is well, and he wants to pack up, you just cancel the plan. Simple as that, cos this plan, is like a sort of pay as you go type plan, I mean, you're not building up huge cash reserves that you gonna lose out on, by cancelling early, Is there any residual value? There is, but it's going to be very very small. Yeah. Because all of the money, is you, is basically to ke provide a level of cover, Yeah. it's not like a Cover Master Living Assurance, where you building up excess cash funds at the same time. Mm. Okay, ninety, ninety-five per cent of the premium is actually paying for the level of cover. Mm. So you'll find when you look at the premiums, they are considerably lower than those of the other plans. Mm. Can for business purposes. It can from, in situations where the employer wants to take one on the life of the employee. But subject to the same minimum and maximum criteria. Yes. Oh, yes. Sorry, was that Just gonna say it is a life assurance policy normally competitive in er, in er, Yes. So it does have er Yes, it does. you know, over about five How old to have one? Seventeen next birthday, yeah. Seventeen next birthday, yeah. Lots of people, a lot of people start work at sixteen, providing they've got an income. Seventeen next birthday, up to a maximum, obviously of fifty- five, because of the ten year rule, to sixty-five. Seventeen next birthday, minimum. Fifty-five next birthday, maximum. But it's, it's non-qualified now, isn't it. Correct. So you don't need the ten year term here. Not for qualifying rules, no. No, that's for building up lumps of cash. It's basically, I mean, you know, who's really gonna want one for less than ten years. Yeah. You looking at the majority of clients are all gonna be, to forty or lower, I would have thought for this sort of plan, the majority. Yeah. Isn't five years a normal, more of a normal for er, er, business purposes. Not with ours. No. Well, that's what I thought, yeah. And you'd be right Okay, the availability, we've looked at Joint Life , Joint Life First Claims, Life of Anothers, Single Lives. What sort of benefit would claim be written on. Single life. Single life. Single life only, isn't it. Because it's one person, one contract, it's based on me and my salary, or, the wife as a house-wife, or house-husband, of course, if the wife's working House-person, indeed. House-person, indeed. away from that one. Okay, bearing in mind single life, does include a life of another, and the only time we can use that life for another, is the one we mentioned there with where the employer wishes to take a plan on the life of the employee. No key man basically, we're looking at there. You got a business partnership wanna protect one of their directors, one of their top producers, or whatever it may be, they can take a plan out, on the life of their employee so again marketing here, he's looking at companies as well as individuals. They want to protect their individuals, who perhaps at the moment they can't afford to pay a salary if the guy's off sick. Right, sure. This would do it for them, wouldn't it. All they've got to pay now is the premium, not the price. Would it be competitive, though. Very. About to what sort of numbers, you know. Pass. Ah, sorry. Ten, I would think. Competitive to what? Well,wh Oh, yes. From an employer's point of view, wouldn't that be er, better if they had a key man insurance under something like erm, well under a Cover Master, for example, because if he was a long term em employer Yeah, you'd want you want, you want Yeah, but that only pays out on death or terminal illness, isn't it, this is gonna pay out if he's, falls off a ladder. You want life assurance Yeah, yeah. But, but, but from the em from the employers point of view, what he stands to lose if that person's away from work, I mean, all all all the er, chap's gonna lose is his, his income so, if he was doing it this in his own case, he would be looking to replace. can you hold on a minute. Sorry. He would be looking just to replace his salary, whereas to the employer, the loss to the employer would be considerably, would be considerably more, couldn't it. So what would Cover Master give the employer then? I If he's off sick. Well well,Co Cover Master, would erm, would would give, it would provide it up to the indemnity which the er, Sum assured. Yeah. Oh yeah, yeah, but or, yeah, no, that's right,Cover Master yeah. If, if I'm an employer, and I can't afford to pay you if you're off sick, Yeah. A, you might not want to come and join my company in the first place Right. B, if you're off sick, you're not going to get any money. Right, and also the But, if this contract says, you know, I can offer you a sickness plan if you're off sick, and I'll be giving you money because of it. Yeah, no, I I see, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, okay. Yeah, but bearing in mind erm, point there as well, you'd also need things like Cover Master Living Insurance, to give a lump sum if the client, if that person died because they might need to bring someone else in to replace them. That's right, yes. But this particular cover's obviously outside the scope of Cover Master, Oh, yeah. Cover Master pays out when you die. Of course, yeah. This pays out when you're off sick. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Make sure you're clear of the distinction between the two Oh yeah, I am am there, sorry, I wasn't Yeah, ones like that. That's right. Ones like Okay, minimum premiums, much lower, as we said, than the other two plans, because it's not building up cash residual values. Twelve pound a month minimum premium, or a hundred and twenty if they're paying it annually. And that does include a policy fee Which is. Two pound fifty-nine That Cover Master? Do you not get the same benefit for hundred and twenty pound per annum. Is it low. Yes, that's right. If you're paying, if you the benefit you want cost twelve pound a month. By paying a hundred and twenty grand you wouldn't get it, because you're not paying the equivalent, Yeah. Yes. Worth a try. So if this was my second policy you sold me, and I wanted a minimum premium contract, how much would the minimum premium be? Brilliant. So that's nine sixty, yeah Remember that little rule, spoke about the other day. The client takes out a second application, and they want it on minimum premiums, they actually get it for eighty per cent of the current value of the minimum premium. What's the, what's the minimum time, should you an existing policy holder, to No, minimums, maximums. So providing they're an existing client, or this is their second application with you tonight. Right, right, oh right. and it's on minimum premiums, you've got a little bit of a discount there, but again, bearing in mind nine pound sixty might not buy them the cover they want. Yes If it was something like a housewife, if you sold the husband and wife, let's say, a Cover Master or Living Assurance, or the husband's Health Master, and the wife now wants a Health Master, then nine pound sixty might be enough to give them the maximum benefit. Rather than paying twelve pound for it. What, he's got a Cover Master. Any plan any plan As I say, providing this is the second, doesn't matter what the first one was. Right. Yeah Including pensions. Any plan Which was, any plan of ours. So they're not getting twelve pounds worth of cover for nine pound sixty. No. No, no, no. No again bearing in mind you get pound for pound value whatever you pay in that would dictate what you get out. Minimum premium it's not very many people who would qualify for the minimum premiums. Yeah. They're very lo , they're young people, low levels of cover, or indeed a housewife Yeah. because of the very low level of cover. Right. So how long do you think someone's gonna be off, before we'll actually start paying out. Twenty-six days. Tw or No, no. that's what you think So if it was lower than that, would you buy one? Yeah. Four weeks. put four weeks. There are four choices Ah. The earliest of which is four weeks. Four weeks. Thirteen weeks. There are four choices the client can choose from. Again depending on what they've currently got cos again we've got to dove-tail this plan into any current arrangements that they've already got. So if they're play paid by their employer, for, you know, six months full salary, they're not gonna want one of these, kicking off after four weeks, are they. Well, they might do, but they can't. The golden rule of this type of plan, in fact, there's quite a few, the first one I really to want you to, just take on board, is that you cannot be better off financially, by claiming under this policy, than you were when you were actually at work. So you couldn't have this plan paying out after four weeks, and at the same time, you're still getting paid by your employer. It's gonna be one or the other. So we've literally got to dove-tail this into whatever other current arrangements they have, including any other P H I they've already got. So this will only come into operation as soon as, erm, it's completely stopped. Correct. So not, it doesn't come into operation when their salary drops to half. Well, again, it depends on how you set this plan up. Right. cos the client might be in a position of saying, well, after six months, I'm down to half salary, so you might have sold this plan, to pick up the other half, Mm. at the six month stage. Right. So they're getting half from the plan, and half from their employer. So it can b So they're not better off, are they, they're the same. No. So you can, can be split like that, Yes. so they can then increase at the end of fifty two weeks or whatever. Yeah, I mean, because you've got a bit of a difficult position there, where you've got the person let's say they're paid their salary six months full then it drops to six months half, and after that we know it's gonna go to zero. What the plan can't do erm, is, I suppose, yeah wel , the only way you can deal with that, well, there's one of two ways, you can set the plan up, erm, for full benefit let's say the salary was twenty thousand so by here you're getting ten so you set the plan up, in retrospect for the same twenty thousand pounds, but at the six month's stage you claim half of it yes, and at the twelve month stage, you're now claiming the full benefit. All that does mean to the client, they're paying the premium for twenty thousand for that period, that they'll never ever claim on. Yeah. Mm. Yeah, so there's a slight disadvantage there. Well, that's gonna happen any anyway. The other way you could do, is to do two plans. Yes, one that kicks in at six month's half salary, the other one that kicks in at twelve month's on half salary. Mm. So you're then paying the right premiums for the right amount of benefits you're going to get. Mm. The other one might be more straightforward to do one plan, cos you've got one policy fee, one policy charge, etc, so there's that ratio to bear in mind, but the other one might be simpler just to have two plans. Or if they said, well, I can manage on that half until the year's expired, and then have one plan kick in at fifty two weeks, with the full benefits. Make sense. Understand and happy. Yeah. Is it possible to have t erm, a split plan then, or do you have. the only other way is to do one plan for the full amount, and claim half of it, at the half way stage and then claim the other half then. But again, you know, you're paying here premiums for twenty thousand pound, but you're only getting ten. Mm. Mm. So you gotta weigh that up against er, doing two plans, which you're paying the true cost of the benefits you would get. If you take out two plans, do you get a reduced policy charge. Yes. Oh no, no, not not reduced policy charge, sorry, no. As I say, you'd be paying two plans, two policy fees, two setting up charges, administration costs etc, so there's all that to be weighed up with the advantages over, I've actually got another plan, but I can only claim half of it, for the first six months. Er, has it ever been considered on Health Master, because,s say, for example, Cover Master you can actually split periods, and levels of sum assured, cos you have the selected period where you'd have it higher. Yes, yes. On Health Master, because it's quite a common thing where employees can be on full pay for six months, then half for the next six months. Would it no not been an idea on something like Health Master to actually have er, a period of six months, where you could claim half of the No, it's very difficult with that type of contract, because it's something that you'd be paying out monthly I mean, Cover Master, it's very simple, say you want, yeah, it's a hundred thousand arranged for twenty years, and then later on. Yeah. Because this one, you could chopping and changing it all the time, it's very an administrative nightmare Oh, yeah, I see, yeah, okay. on that, it would be very difficult. How is er, redundancy covered, No. So what if you've got one of these plans out, and then your redundant, and then your sick. Right, okay, can I deal with that a little bit later on. Okay, but it doesn't pay out on redundancies, it's just a sickness and accident policy. aren't ya. So choice of deferred periods, four thirty, twenty-six fifty-two. Client's choice depending on their occupation. Okay they might ask for a four week deferred period, but because of their occupation it says, or we say, sorry, we're not going to give you that. Erm, whilst I don I accept you don't know what the groups are, at this time, I'd just like you to make a note of, classes of occupation, one, two and three are the Bless you Is eligible anybody in group four, which obviously is a high risk occupation, anybody in that group is unable to have a four week deferred period. Well, they all escaped, haven't they. Anybody in a four week deferre , erm, sorry, anybody in group four Group four cannot have four week deferred period So what we're saying is the risk there is too high, and there's obviously a greater chance they'll be claiming at a very early stage Okay, so the client has the choice, say, apart from the group fours, they could be four thirty and twenty-six and fifty-two, but again dove-tailing into what they've already got. Also taking into account any other P H I benefits we must do as well. If think I've got this written down wrong,classes of occupation one, two and three can only have a four week deferred period, that's no Yes, exactly right. That's right. Group fours can't. Can only have a four week No, can have four Or thirteen twenty-six or fifty-two. Yeah. It's only classes of occupation one, two and three can have a four week That's right. I've got the order in the wrong place. Or it's only class four occupation that can't have a four week Depending which way you're coming round the corner. Do what? How many classes are there? Ninety-nine, no, there's four. No, there's four, erm, apart from housewife and those that are declined. Right. They come into one of four Okay. four main categories. paid on disability, and it's payable from the end of the deferred period until the client recovers, dies or the policy itself expires. So it's commencing at the end of the deferred period up until recovery, death, or the end of the term of the policy How are most people's salaries paid generally. Monthly. In arrears or advance. Arrears. In arrears. We'll keep this the same then, shall we? Paid monthly in arrears So let's say, self-employed guy, got a four week deferred plan. He's off sick today, from today, how long will it be before he gets his first cheque from us. Eight weeks. Eight weeks, Eight weeks. Two months. Yes, cos it's got to go, four week deferred, then at the end of the four weeks after that, he gets his first cheque, for that four week period. Mm. Yes an important point there, because, we don't want you to go away thinking, you can tell your self-employed people, you gonna have money at the end of four weeks. At the end of four weeks, they're eligible to claim, shall we say, then at the end of that four weeks they can then get a cheque for whatever period they've been off. So it will be actually eight weeks from the day of the illness or accident. Is it a case of claiming it, immediately er, you become sick, rather than saying Oh, yes. Notify us immediately the claim, the accident, the illness, or whatever, Yeah we can then start the deferred period. cos it could be a case of, you know, waiting twenty-six weeks to tell us, then we might say right, we now start the twenty-six weeks deferred. Do they have to produce a doctor's note say look, I've been off for chances are we would. Be flexible. Yes, yeah, but again as soon as it happens let us know. Yeah, but with some of them, how are you gonna now at the outset, whether you're gonna be off work for You don't know, but it's not worth taking the risk of, you know, being wrong. Yeah. You can always say, I've had this accident Yeah, if it, if it's an illness, not a simple accident, an accident is probably, or you've got a rough idea as to how long you gonna be off for. Yeah. So. Yeah but, I mean, yes, I mean, you've got a cold, you gonna be off, perhaps a couple of weeks. Mm. But if it's something, you know, more serious than then the the client should be aware from you, that they should be ringing you up at this stage. Mm. To say, do I need to. You can then perhaps ha have a word with the underwriter, and say client's off with this, what do you thinks likely to happen? Mm. Don't know, let's be aware of it, get a letter in writing register er, a claim to head office. Get a letter in writing that's Are we going to cover the underwriting Erm, a little bit, yes. Basically as far as what you need to know at the point of sale, yes. Is is there a guide at all that we can look at Erm it, we've covered some of it, the rest, er, again, because we're not looking at such large large sums, you know, as Cover Master for Home Health Checks and things like that, erm, but, basically, no. No, I mean, when we come to it, we'll deal with it, if you've still got a question then, I'll answer that then, but basically, there's more stringent guide lines with this plan than with any other, so you don't really need to worry about that. Okay, income payable on disability. We said, as soon as the disability occurs, deferred period kicks in, after that will then start setting of the payment. There is one time when the deferred period won't apply. That is on the case of a re-occurring disability. So scenario, clients been off sick for the last six months with a back problem. Six months to a year whatever with a back problem. Okay, go back to work, fully recovered, okay, if within six months of going back to work, they're off again, due to the same or related condition as the last claim, then we won't install, or employ the deferred period, we'll treat is as a continuation of the previous claim. So money would be paid out basically from day one Makes sense. So if it's the same or related condition, the deferred period won't apply and will carry on, we'll start paying straight away, providing there's a loss of income. Does it have a time limit on it? Six months. Six months. So if within six months of going back to work, they're off again. Will they still be paid in arrears, Still be paid monthly in arrears, yes, but they qualify from day one, not, you know, four or thirteen weeks later, or whatever it may be. It there a certain number of times that can happen or No, irrelevant. that can continue That can continue, so you could be off work for a couple of months, go back, if within six months you're off again, claim, go back, if within six months you're off again, claim, go back Right. Because it would be er, er re-occurring, reoccurring problem. But it's got to be the same problem. It's got to be the same, or related so if it's something new, then it will be a whole new claim. But if it's the same or related condition, we're saying, it's a continuation of the claim, rather than stop and start again. But again, there must be a loss of income, because again, there's the rule, that you can't be better off by being off work sick. Okay on that. Re-occurring disability. Make sure you're aware of that Okay, for affordability levels for the client, we've got three different levels of plan, that they can choose from. If you relate it to perhaps to something like car insurance, we've got third party, third party fire and theft version and then a fully comp version. So there's a cheaper one, a middle of the road, and a one that's a little bit more expensive. But again, you get what you pay for. Looking at the level plan, which is the basic one base plan and level plan What we're really saying there with that plan, whatever you set it up for today, will never ever change, unless you change it. So the client wants ten thousand pounds a year,with sickness benefit and it costs, you know, twenty-six pounds a month. Those'll still be the same figures ten, twenty, thirty years down the line. Unless you change it So whilst it may well represent, you know, a fair percentage of the client's salary today, ten years down the line, it's perhaps not gonna represent anywhere near the same percentage. Mm. So it would lose pace with inflation. But again, it's the cheapest plan, and it's a plan that today could be better than having none at all. As far as the client's concerned. But it can be altered as time goes by, if a client can afford extra premiums, their salary allows them to have extra increases, it can be altered, but would nec would possibly want medical underwriting for any future increasing. Okay, so yes, it can be altered but we would want, more than likely, the underwriting to go with it. Which might be a problem if the client's had ill health in the meantime. But not claimed. Not the claim really wouldn't make much difference. Right. Whether they claimed or not, is not gonna change our philosophy that wh w would need medical underwriting anyway, whether you claimed or not. Okay, so the level whatever you set up for today, will still be that way, unless you change it. The middle of the road, third party fire and theft, is what we call the increasing benefit plan. Fully comp doesn't cover windscreen cover, by the way. So if you smash your glasses, it's down to you So let's say we've set a plan up twelve thousand pounds per annum benefit, a thousand pounds a month, yes. Erm, all goes well for the first two years, no real problems there, the client is now, had an accident, an illness, sickness or whatever, now needs to claim on the policy. Okay, so, from year two to three, how much are they gonna get per month? A thousand pounds a month. A thousand pounds a month, that's what we set the plan up for. Okay, year three to four it's going to increase by the rate of inflation over that year. So we get to the anniversary of the policy, not the claim, the policy, I just coincide my illness with an anniversary, but on the anniversary of the policy, we'll look at the policy, where inflation, what's it done over the last twelve months, let's say it's gone up by five per cent. So your next year's payments, or monthly payments, will now reflect that increase in the cost of living. Makes sense. So you your policy could change within one month. That's right. I mean, if your policy renewal date was December, you're off in November, you only get one payment at the old rate, and the next one's at the newer rate. Right. Exactly right, well spotted. But it it's on the policy anniversary, not the claim anniversary, and that will keep happening providing the client is still off. Yeah, so if he's off again at the end of that year, we look at inflation, what's it done, so it would now go up and it would now be, let's say, eleven hundred pounds a month. It's an insurability option in effect. In effect, that's right. But only as long as the client is off sick. Yeah. Because what happens, as soon as he's,go goes back to work, it goes back down again, to what would be a thousand pounds for any future claims to start with again. So as soon as you stop claiming, the policy reverts back to what it was initially. All happy on that. Mm. So it's increasing benefit, it only goes up whilst you're claiming by the R P I subject to a maximum ten per cent. So if we have galloping inflation of twelve, fifteen per cent, the most you would get is ten Happy on that one. Premiums for that will remain level throughout the contract. There will be no increase in premium even though you gonna get an increase in benefits. So it's a better plan than ever, also the premiums for this will be higher than the level plan claim, but again once they're set, they wouldn't increase, because your benefits are. Sound good. I knew you'd be enthused. Yeah, not bad. Right aren't you. Okay, so the premiums remain level, but the cover potentially will go up on each anniversary whilst I'm off sick, subject to the rate of inflation, subject to the maximum overall of ten per cent. Does that mean, the maximum of ten per cent, you wouldn't ever get more than the eleven hundred, or No, maximum ten per cent in any one year. Ten per cent in one year. So if I was off for two or three years then the rate of inflation was high, then it would be ten per cent each those years The fully comp, the inflation proof plan Let's say we've got a yearly increase of five per cent inflation is doing that throughout the policy. Automatically it's staying, hopefully, if your salary's going up by the rate of inflation, this will then be matching your salary, year in, year out. Whether you're claiming or not. Whether you're claiming or not. Okay, last one it only goes up when you are claiming, this one goes up even when you're not. So you'll always know that, if your salary's gone up by the same level, whenever you claim, it's gonna be the same percentage as it was today. So even if in ten years, twenty years time, I put a claim, the money I get then, will be the same seventy odd per cent of my salary as it would be today. Yes make sense. Can you increase it in excess of those amounts? There's erm, the amount that the plan you have, is driven by the client's salary. Mm. You can have a percentage of the salary, we'll look at in a minute. So it depends on whether your at maximum benefits or not allowable. And when can you do that, can you do that at any time. You can increase at any time. If you're not at maximum already. So that that is the disadvan , so so wi with this as you say, it's only on their second one, erm, the increasing benefit plan, the benefits are only increasing when you're actually claiming, Yes. and then, once you've claimed, it goes back to the original figure. Goes back to what it was at the start. So, I mean, say in about three or four years time you you'd have the same level of cover That's right. starting point, as you've got today, then. That's right, even though your salary may well have gone up quite a bit more than that. Yeah. But then again, don't forget on that one, premium is remaining level throughout the plan. Of course, yeah. This one, the premium will go up each year to pay for the extra benefits. Yeah, so your premium will also be doing this. Is that all linked So the R P I, there's no maximum on that, is there. Yeah, ten per cent still. Is there? Benefits, yes. But if the premiums went up No, you're still limited each year to a maximum ten per cent increase on the plan. Right. So So the cost of the premiums will altered as well. No, well, the cost of the premium, is dependent on two fac two increasing factors inflation. Sorry. inflation. Inflation is one of th , or yeah, not inflation itself, but the premium will go up by A, the new cost of the benefit what else would it take the new premium rate No. Yes Two increasing factors, the increasing benefit, the benefit's gonna go up each year, that's gonna cost more money, you're now a year older, that's gonna cost more money. Yeah. So that's in addition to the increase driven by the R P I. the R P I. No, it's driven by the increase in R P I isn't it. This has gone up by R P I, Yeah. that being the benefit. Yeah. Yeah, because you've now got extra benefit, you've now got to increase the premium. So it's I mean, let's see, you were getting a thousand pound a month, you're now gonna get eleven hundred pounds a month, Mm. Whereas before, it cost you twenty pound, it's now gonna perhaps cost you twenty one pound. Right. It's also got reflect your age, so it might be twenty one pound fifty now. Right. So at some stage, those two lines could meet. Erm Due to the age factor on it. Er, the age factor, you could well overtake it. Yeah. Couldn't it, you'll have, I mean, if you've got a client who's twenty, thereabouts, the percentage increase for the age is gonna be very, very low, isn't. Yeah. Somebody who's perhaps forty, fifty, the percentage increase for the age could be a bit higher. There's, the older you are, the more it's gonna cost, the more risk, etc, etc. Whereas at a younger age, the percentage increase for the age, might be, you know, point one of a per cent. Somebody sort of, fifty, fifty- five, it might be two or three per cent , or more. Okay, but you're buying more benefits, therefore you got to pay for it more Effectively cost of benefit is increasing the R P I. Yes, well I don't want you to remember that, because it's not. Oh. No. So there. You never know. So what drives the premium, what causes it to go up? benefit The cost and benefit. The new level of benefit and the new age. Yeah So it's those two factors, that would dictate the new premium. Yes. Mm. Happy on that. So can you afford one. No. don't sound like it Just knocked up quickly an example here,associate, age thirty next birthday, running a plan through till age sixty,sixty-five in this career are you, might be retired by then. Let us write this down just for information. Based on twelve thousand pound benefit, for the thirteen week deferred period, on the inflation proof plan, so it's the best plan, you're running it from, for thirty years, on a thousand pound a month guaranteed income if you're off sick or ill. How much would you pay for that, if that were you, if you were thirty, looking for a thirty year plan, guaranteed to keep in line with inflation, thousand pounds a month. How much would you pay? About twenty quid Fifteen a month. About twelve pound I've seen, I've seen, I've seen Ten tenner a week. Ten pound a week. See me later. I'll buy it. Nineteen pound twenty-three per month. Yeah, I was close, though. Fiver a week. Five pound a week. Five pound a week protects two hundred and fifty pounds a week. Question what would you do without your two hundred and fifty pounds a week? Mm. Not a lot on a fiver Would you, could you afford to loose five pound to protect two hundred and fifty? Yes. And that actually includes the policy fee as it was, of two fifty-five, so if you take that out, you're looking at sixteen pound eighty odd, for sort of, true cost of that cover. Mm. Four pound a week. There's a Indeed. And how big's the Okay, so it's not that expensive. Again think of what you'd lose if you didn't have one. Okay, how much can I have, that's the question now Wakey-wakey. We said earlier, did we not, that you cannot be better off financially by having claiming under the plan, than you did at work. Yeah. Yes, we've got to accept that fact, so the benefits we get here, are almost going to match your salary. Almost. Okay, first thing we've got to derive, we'll do a couple of examples, let's have an employed client, and self employed, because when we start from differs, depending on whether employed or self- employed. They're employed, we start on their gross salary, gross remuneration, what makes up an employed person's gross package, gross salary. Basic. So you got salary, basic salary, give me a figure. Twenty thousand. Twenty. Twenty thousand, okay. What else might this twenty thousand pound earner have, that would be included in his gross package. Benefits. Benefits and a car. Benefits in kind, such as. Don't know. Could be a company car, couldn't it. Petrol. Expense allowance. Telephone. Private health. Health insurance. Okay. Whatever benefits there are, could be luncheon vouchers, uniform, whatever, add those on top of the salary. Let's say we get a figure of, erm, what, three thousand pounds for that. Is there a formula for that? Yes, there is. All on your tax card. Sorry, what's that last one, you've listed down P H I. B H I. Oh, P H I, sorry yeah. Just a moment Yes. Will I be, try to sell him that. So I didn't There could scheme benefits within the company. Mm. Existing company scheme benefits. Right, yeah, grossed up to that, yeah. What does his income health insurance. Okay, so what we're saying, we've now arrived at this person's gross salary. That's the figure we want to start from. Happy. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Make sure you add those bits up, because he can now really have benefits relating to his benefits in kind, which you've you've forgotten, is less money he's gonna get, because he was off sick. Yeah. Okay. Can he not still keep his company car though, off sick. Yes. So that doesn't matter. That's right. But he's now drawing, sort of, cash benefits because of it, or extra cash benefits because of it. Is that his bonus. Self-employed person, we want to find their, N R E N R E what's an N R E? Net relevant earnings. Net relevant earnings, indeed. How do we arrive at that figure? Income gross profit. Income less expenses. Well if you're not doing any work. Okay, so let's say that this guy, self-employed plumber or whatever, he's earned twenty five thousand pounds, in income. What were his expenses? Twenty-four thousand. Let's say, is five, so he's got net relevant earnings of twenty thousand in this example, on this and this is one or two situations Mm. where it's not good news to have a low net relevant earnings. Mm. You can't have your cake and eat it. We start basing P H I benefits on your N R E, using your example, he has only got one thousand a year, Yeah. he's not gonna get a lot of sick benefit, is he. Yeah. What other situation would not help him. Mortgage. Mortgages. Building societies traditionally lend three times your N R E. Mm. You've got an N R E of five thousand here's your mortgage of fifteen, what do you want live And pension fund in it as well. Second Pension contributions as well another one Okay, so employed we need to know their gross package, self-employed we need to work on their net relevant earnings. Okay, we arrived at those two. The first computation that we've got to do for P H I benefits, is take seventy-five per cent of those two figures. So we want seventy-five per cent of that And that's company policy, isn't it er Yes. In fact you'll find that's across the board with P H I. Yeah. It's not a st a legal statutory thing, is it There is certainly Inland Revenue limitations in there. Right, so is seventy-five per cent of salary. So it's sixteen thousand. Seventeen two-fifty. Seventeen two-fifty. That's the first equation, you must it this way, cos any other way will not be accurate. But the first thing you must do, once you know the figure, take seventy- five per cent of it, if it's up to forty-five thousand and obviously these are. If the client has a salary in excess of forty-five thousand, you still take the seventy-five per cent off the forty-five, but you could then take a third of whatever is over that forty-five. So if your client's salary was fifty thousand, for example, you'd have seventy-five per cent of sorry. forty-five thousand, and a third of the other five thousand Happy on that one, so you get the higher earners, forty-five thousand and above, whatever's over forty-five, you can take an extra third of that and add it to, what seventy-five per cent of forty-five is. Is there any upper limit? Yes. Fifty thousand. Is it. Sor overall maximum benefit level of fifty thousand pounds, so no plan could be set up in excess of fifty thousand at the outset. I've gone dizzy. So that's er, no plan will commence with more than fifty thousand Okay, what we've now got to take off from these two figures is if there any other permanent health insurance benefits the client's got with any other insurance companies. Okay, so they've other P H I benefit, that must come off of the equation, because we, otherwise we'll be paying it as well as another insurance company, which mean he'll be better off financially, by being off work sick, yes. That could be a short term accident policy, that might pay P H I Permanent. Permanent Health Insurance, that's not sickness and accident, which would normally be one or two year contract. Yes, so It's totally separate. Yeah. Okay. What we must then take off is the single person's state invalidity benefit Sorry,something. Two nine one seven is the, this year's current state invalidity benefit, single person's. Fifty-six, ten times twenty-two. Do you no, yeah, do you always take the lower figure there, cos it's a sliding scale, isn't it. That right, two brain's gone Yeah, that's right, yeah. Yeah, yeah, so you only ever take three, three, three, sorry Yeah, from Yes, that's what I was thinking. You only ever take that figure. All right, then. End of story. am I right, in saying, cos yo you say, obviously we've got to deduct er, any other permanent health cover which might Yes. be provided by another insurance company Yes. erm, but in that situation, erm, so I understand,yo you'd actually erm, it hasn't cropped up here, but I understand that in other cases where you've double insurance from two life companies, that two life companies would split the actual benefit fifty-fifty, so it wouldn't actually be deducting the whole amount, would it, because Abbey Life would still ha , Abbey Life would still have to pay If you found someone that who had, you know, full cover with us, and full cover with someone else, Yeah, yeah, if they had exactly the chances are we'd pay half each. Half each, yeah. Yes, so in which case, the client's now got a whole premium split between two companies Two companies. which he's gonna get no benefit. Yeah, but the main thing is So there's absolutely no benefit in trying to over insure No. yourself or this sort of plan. No. cos you're not going to get it. No. Happy with th the working out, then. Arriving at the full salary, or net relevant earnings, seventy-five per cent of that,okay, if for over forty- five thousand, you take another third of that as well. That's the first equation. Stage two, take off any other P H I benefit. Stage three, take off the single person's state invalidity benefit. Whatever the figure is left, that's the amount the client can have a Health Master for. Yes, reasonably straightforward. So if I asked you to calculate one of your own, you'd be able to do it, yes. Mm. So I'll rub this off. After a coffee break, perhaps. Yes. what a gentlemen. Back here by twelve in fact, if you want, you can come back in earlier and We'll talk about something in general, if you wish. You've already done it. There's a lot of moaning and groaning going on, did everyone have a late night, last night? I don't know. I just trying to shake this flu that I feel coming on. went down the gym last night, first time in about three weeks. Is it a train from here, or is it a tube from here. Tube. Tube. Mm Suddenly everyone seems to be talking about the menopause so we thought that you'd better hear what women really think. There's still a lot of mystery, worse, misinformation surrounding this milestone in a woman's life. So tonight the wraps are off and I think you'll agreeably surprised by what you hear! I'd like to start with a vote. Do you want more information about the menopause? Button one for yes, and button two for no. And, in this hundred goodness! Ninety one people say yes, only nine say no! Now, why did you, why did you say yes? Is it because yo , you you haven't got the information? You don't have enough?it's not available to you? Yes? I feel that there is an awful lot of gossip and scare tactics about it and I'd like to, to have a real expert information on it. Have you tried to information before? Not ver , not very much. Mainly I mainly through, mainly through gossip! Gossip? Aha. And what does the gossip say? Every, for everything er from it's all in your mind to it's dreadful! Right, front line. Yes. I think actually I would like to get some, some more information and men should get some more information because they are the ones who are dismissing and er not sort of going along with it. Mm. Well out there, they're they're watching so who else said yes? I'd feel the local doctors, your local G P's are needing to be brought more into to line with it. I've personally had problems with one doctor cos he was out of date, he wasn't you know, wasn't aware of some of the treatments and I had to actually enlighten him to some of the the treatments that was available for people! Really? Aha. Yes. Ho and how did you know he was out of date? Because ee er, some of the subjects I brought to him but he didn't know nothing about them! He had to you know, he'd, he'd to leave it and consult with colleagues or whatever. So I feel that And where were you you know, that G P's that's been practising for a long number of years you know er, elderly G P's are probably not as up-to-date on these kind of things as they should be. Aha. This one. I had a few problems when I was about thirty and my doctor told me it was just my age and the menopause! From thirty! And I started it about fifteen years later! Now when do yo , when your doctor said that when you were thirty di did you believe him or her? It was a him. A him. A doctor younger than myself, and I didn't believe him! And, I just tu but there was nothing else I could do! I couldn't argue with him I just had to go and say oh well it's just my age and get on with it! Yes? I'd like to know more about it because having gone through it without any eventuality I'd quite like to know what I missed! If anything! And if, in fact, this H R T I'm really missing something, you see, that's what I'd like to know. I don't think that er, I think that unfortunately some of the older doctors definitely were misinformed and weren't educated and I think nowadays that the doctors are becoming very much more educated and perhaps the ones who have the bad time are the fortunate ones in so far as they're getting the hormone replacement therapy if they're lucky and they have sympathetic general practitioner. And the ones who haven't had the bad time might well be suffering because they're not being allowed the benefits of hormone replacement therapy. Now you're a G P? Yes. And so obviously you're very well clued up. Th does that mean the older people here have had a raw deal? I mean,th those people who've gone through the menopause wo would any of you like to say anything about experience? Yes? Er, well Er No, yes yes! Nelly? Na er well of course I'm seve seventy nine but I can still remember most of it and I did have a very bad time! Moods, bad moods and going to I gave my husband a terrible time! I really did! But he was very understanding and, the doctor just seemed to think that that was a natural course I had to go through! But er, it lasted, I was forty seven and it didn't finish till I was about sixty! But people complain sometimes about the flushes, but I was glad when I had a flush because I felt better after having flushes! I think we've got to look at the other side of the Aha. as well that I personally a agree with the lady over there as I'm now, with all the talk of hormo , hormone replacement wonder what it was? How much better life would have been if I'd known about that or used it? I'm from the group, the change you change Mhm. and er when I was going through the change and I'm post menopause er and having terrible feelings, I'd nowhere to go! I went round all the hospitals in Edinburgh and Leith all the doctors surgeries and there was nowhere and I ended up at the the women's unit in Edinburgh City Chambers and I got help from the women's unit and er from there we started a pressure group to get more literature to people, you know to get them into doctor's surgeries so as they would know what to do, what to expect. Helen? In we've had a menopause clinic in Glasgow for the last twenty four years erm, it's run by a male doctor erm but we have been treating patients for that length time. We're extremely interested in the women we try to treat them as individuals we cope with a lot of problems and I think if we look as women as individuals, each individual woman has a different problem. We all basically have flushes, sweats, depression and various other problems, but basically the ladies who present with flushes and sweats are the ladies who in fact get help for ladies who don't present with flushes and sweats finish up as osteoporotic and they're the ones we are very concerned about! We don't see them until they're too late and they're having fractures of the spine and shrinking two percent of bone less in a year! Are you suggesting that every woman going through the menopause should get some kind of clinical help? It should be offered to her Mhm. if she wants it. I'm not telling every woman to take me H R T, I'm suggesting that it's preventative medicine. We don't stop diabetics having insulin. If the ovaries are removed, ovaries stop working there is treatment there to prevent us having disease, why shouldn't we take it and why shouldn't we have a better life? Linda? I'm, er, the director of the National Osteoporosis Society and we started five years ago and as Helen said just now, we are in the business of informing women, not saying all women should be going on hormone replacement therapy! Some women certainly will sail through menopause with never a hot flush and no problems at all, sadly that's no indication that they're not going to have problems from their bones later on. Now i , let's let's do a bit of definition of terms here, osteoporosis is what It's bones that are too porous literally, so that they break very easily Aha. and that accounts for the hip fractures and the the er spines collapsing in Mhm. older women, losing height a lot of pain from these fractures and it's bones that are too porous so they're not holding you up sufficiently as you get older. And how can that be alleviated? By hormone replacement therapy, that's the main way of of helping. You can do things for yourself in the way of diet, exercise, good lifestyle, not smoking and so on but, a lot of women will need hormone replacement therapy just to replace the hormones that dear old mother nature stop supplying to us at the menopause. Hundred years ago we didn't live this long! Now that we do live much longer with better health care generally, what we want is for women to be able to live that last third of their lives in health and being able to enjoy themselves and contribute to the community, not feeling that they're crippled by pain. Now, am I right in saying that there has been some controversy in the past about hormone replace , let's call it H R T, it's shorter, that er that not everyone's convinced it's it's it's a good idea, that there are maybe some negative side effects. I mean,wha what is the latest information on on H R T? You were right in saying that there was very bad press given to hormone replacement therapy in in the early days when they used very high doses of of er un er, of normal oestrogens and this caused an increase in the amount of end of uterus, uterine cancer and this I think has generally er mo mo mo ruined the course for for the older doctors because they still think that it's associated with an increase in cancer and they haven't got up to date to realise that the more modern preparations are not causing this and that's where I think th the problems li lie. Yes? We are in the course of giving H R T. The ladies are monitored very carefully and scanned and sometimes they pick up cancer in another part of the body which Mhm. is a bonus and a benefit to the sufferer and that is er an extra thing with H R T. Here. I'd like to say that I'm actually on hormone replacement therapy and I'm not being monitored . I've been on it for over three years and I'm quite concerned about some of the things I've heard tonight and I'm going to make an appointment Well that's all the things that concerns us. and see my doctor about it straight away! It's not only woman who need to be better informed it's the doctors as well! Here here! Yes? I would like to ask, if one of these medical ladies could tell us? How, how, what percentage of these signs of the menopause are inherited tendencies? Who would like to who'd like to answer that one? Yes? I will. I I there is no evidence that it's an inherited or venereal problem and this is the, you know you we have there has been lots of sort of studies done to see which woman might be more at risk and which women, you know, might have symptoms and th , the fact is that the reason why you, why the menopause occurs is because the ovaries stop functioning, they stop producing oestrogen and every woman's ovaries does this and they do it you know, at all varying ages the average age is fifty. But the most interesting thing about it is that i the actual level oestrogen bears no relationship to your symptoms as er Sheila has said, you can have two women with the sa exactly the same level of oestrogen and one woman is having awful problems and the other woman is, as we have heard, having no problems at all! A year I had all the symptoms and I went and got a book and read about it and tried to find out as much possible about it and the book scared me silly because it told me all these things that could happen Oh yes! and I was upset so I went to my doctor who's a lady doctor and she's young, she explained things to me and she put me on H R T and it changed my life completely! It th , I was depressed, I had swe sweats, night sweats and my husband was all , he couldn't sleep at night and it changed it completely! And, the worse thing for me was I lost my self confidence, I had no confidence whatsoever.,. in all areas, work-wise Mm. at home with my family, whenever I went on the H R T everything changed! I felt better, I looked better, I di I didn't feel, my skin was better, my hair come back, it was just marvellous for me! Absolutely marvellous! H R T Well women don't want to Le let Louise say! May I just say, I thi , I think it's important to point out that H R T isn't a miracle cure! And although it will grea , greatly help some women, unfortunately some women are unable to tolerate it, the side effects it gi , it gives them are worse than the actually symptoms they're having in the first place. It means having periods back again which after, and now, er several years break and erm, many women find unacceptable. We all have to have that. You don't have that? We do have, we ha , we have tablets for that. Yes? Over here! I must admit, after I'd finished with the menopause I felt absolutely great! I wasn't on H R T, I had a very easy transition from having periods to stopping having periods. Er, I did go on H R T because of the osteoporosis risk, but I was unlucky I was one of the I think twelve percent who had developed breast trouble and had to come off it. I think that er it is probably a very useful thing if you can tolerate it. But I must admit, having a lifetime of painful periods and not having any more painful periods was absolute bliss! And that's one of the drawbacks of H R T, it all came back again ! Down here. Yeah? I was just going to mention the fact that if you have had breast cancer you cannot go on H R T cos it was a hormone that caused it in the first place! Is that right. Yes. I think, one fact that probably, I'm sure yo , many of us know here is that the actual number of women on the H R T is really very small in this country! It's probably less, about, between five and ten percent! Mm. So I mean th the instance of breast cancer is rising the instance of breast cancer, the number of cases of breast is rising, it rises with age. Currently,th nu , H R T in this country will not be influencing the risks of breast cancer. On the other hand, and it is extremely complex and it indeed, it probably erm amounts to the fact that each wom woman has to consider how she feels herself Mhm. about whether she would wish to run the risks of A, B, and C. And the other condition we haven't mentioned is er th th th the risks of coronary artery disease and strokes which actually do, are the main cause of death o , in Scottish women! And it's it's almost like saying that the, if you take H R T er, this is in our sort of survey that you will in fact erm, reduce the instance of heart disease but ma , might you, in in fact, increase the risks of breast cancer. Your making it sound like a heads you lose, tails you lose situation! It's a, it's a very, very complex issue! I mean And un unfor , and this is in fact is why indeed, general practitioners and even specialists find it very complex! I mean, last month er And and, and that is you, I mean you are a consultant gynaecologist and That's right! And you're describing the complexity of it. Yes! If we're, if we're agreeing that women ought to be able to make informed choices, there's so much information it's actually very hard to make a, particularly if your Yeah. G P isn't as up-to-date as as as you might hope with the information him or herself. Yes! I sailed through the menopause, but then had lots of back problems. And this was cracked fracture from osteoporosis now, if I had been getting H R T at that time I might have been less disfigured. But, at least I'm on it now and hopefully, slowing down the osteoporosis and I don't care about the cancer, er scares! I'd rather la , have the treatment and ha , and have a reasonable life. Yes? As a younger and have plenty of time to worry about the menopause before it happens erm, all I can say is I'm glad to see that it's stopped being referred to as women's troubles, you know and we're actually bringing it out to the forefront. But, is there anything that my generation could do now that might stop us requiring H R T in the future? Alright. Mhm. I I think it's important, especially for for young women up to the age of about thirty five when your peak bone density is probably attained and after that you, you do go downhill, to maximise the calcium intake. Nowadays people are worried about er, drinking milk and dairy products because of the cholesterol bit, but I think that we've got to remember that there's a lot of calcium in milk and you should drink milk and take plenty of exercise and that is the time when it's probably extremely important! Yes? Wha , what do you do if you're allergic milk? Cos I haven't drink milk from, since a baby and Well tha , that's a bit more difficult. There are other foods that you can get it from, such as ice Erm cream, sardines Yoghurt? yoghurt. No,co oh well you'll be allergic to that too. I'm allergic, I'm allergic to a lot of foods! Can I, I want to pick up er, something that that Margaret said which is, I've got lots of time to worry about it. Now, obviously, you know,yo getting the menopause out into the open so that everyone can talk about it, exchange information that that it's not seen as a as a taboo or something to be particularly fearful of by men or women isn't going to be much good if it just makes everybody worry for er, for for the first half of o o o of their lives and, and then gibber through the second half! I mean, there is an argument,ha and it's been put by er a a noted writed who's recently written on the menopause that,work, and you should just make the most of being a crone or a hag or an old women! No! Now , I'm not saying I se , but it's a view that has been put forward,wha wha what do you think of that? Yes? I wouldn't actually say that you know, one has got to suffer unduly, but I think we do have to be very, very careful that we don't just play into the hands of the drug manufacturers! See, they've got most women hooked on, on er contraceptive pill for all their reproductive life and they're dead keen that we should all get so worried about menopause that we would also be buying their products until we die! Now, although I have great respect for er, the representative of the Osteoporosis Society I se , I still think as a epidemiologist that there haven't been enough women on H R T for long enough Mhm. for us to prove one way or the other that that, that that they co , the advantages out weigh the disadvantages. So you think we have some guinea pigs here? You have to be cautious! How long do you want them to be on H R T for? We've been following a group through in Glasgow who've been H, on H R T now for twenty three years! Up there. I think if you went and saw our own doctors a lot of our fears would be allayed because most of the young doctors wouldn't, would recommend to you, my own doctor asked me all the questions and different things and then he says he's a young doctor, he says if I were a women and if I'd answered all the questions as you did, I would go on H R T. So, there might be a lot of doctors who would do. Right. Beside you? Yes. Yes? I think you really highlights on working alongside with your doctor. I think you'll be able to read up as much information as possible and see a doctor and consult and especially th where women's clinic are, a great boom! And we should attend Mm. it more often. Up there. I would just like to say that erm, it's not all gloom and doom! Mm. The menopause isn't necessarily the end of our life, it can be the beginning of so many new different things. Yes? I I think erm, that it can be looked at to, without H R T or looking at it medically, because lots of the women at Dean Terrace, in fact have That's a family planning er problem That's right! situation. Yep! but erm, have erm problems with what this lady has described who can't come to terms with Mhm. the er loss of their fertility and the loss of their children and, have sexual problems and problems like that, and they don't necessarily need H R T they need lots of time, which they're given. And I think that helps them an awful lot! Is it impossible that your sex life might improve after the menopause? I mean I I wo er would anything like to say anything about Do we have to? No! a friend's experience or anything like that? Nelly? Yes I would like to say, it was smashing after the because you didn't have to worry that you were gonna have another child! So, though I had a bad time, well I had a, I've had a great life since! Good! Up there? What do you do about er, a doctor who says no? I mean, do you change your doctor or what? Yes. Who would like to answer that one? Yes? Get more information first, so that you know all your facts and if you ask us we'll send him a booklet without saying who er, who asked us to send it and then go in and see him and say, now the Osteoporosis Society have said this and it's a very brave doctor who will then say absolutely no! I'm, I'm not listening to you! But, in the final analysis, if you can't get any help, if he won't refer you to a specialist for help change your doctor! Because if the garage did your car badly you wouldn't have any hesitation in in changing your garage and your body's a darn sight more important than your car! I think women can sail into a beautiful old age with enthusiasm for hobbies, taking up new interests of all sorts and I've taken up skiing after the age of fifty and I'm, I feel I'm getting on well with it and this fresh air and and you know, getting out and finding who you really are after, you know, looking after children is is a wonderful thing! And this will keep you young! I don't have H R T, I didn't have any problems luckily, with the menopause but I feel I've I've found a bit more of who I really am, you know! I'm very interested in that because that is what Germaine Greer says in her book, it's only after the menopause that you have the freedom and the liberty, to find out Yes! Yes it who you really are! Does Exactly! does does does anybody, yes! Yes. Well I had a hysterectomy when I was forty nine and to me life really did begin at fifty! I go dancing! I'm now sixty two and I go dancing twice a week! So, I mean apart from arthritis life's quite good! Here. Can I say, I'm thirty six and had a hysterectomy a year ago. Mhm. I'm taking flushes and whatever but I feel brand new compared to what I felt before I had a hysterectomy cos I was totally lifeless! And I can agree with the ladies that say life begins once you get by all these problems that you had before. Up there. As a younger person I, I would expect that I've probably got another fifteen years to go to the menopause, but I'm looking forward to it as a relief from pre-menstrual syndrome! And, I wondering if any of the experts can say if there's erm a link between the severity of menopausal symptoms and pre-menstrual symptoms? Okay a final, final expert view on that. Who would like to offer a fortunately no. Yo erm your er it isn't your fate in life to have all this pro , though major problems erm, and I think P M S is a major problem. And, in fact er I would hopeful that you will be feel better. Yes. Mm. I have a question to the politicians. The N H S cannot cope in the moment with you know, regular sort of cervical cancer smears. Mhm. How can they cope in the future with sort of er monitoring the effects of H R T? Well er, that's for politicians watching, think about it to care about! Yes? Well if er, more women do take hormone replacement therapy and we cut the osteoporosis we will in fact have far money in the health service besi , because it costs a hundred and eighty million pounds a year to treat hip fractures alone at the moment! Germaine Greer has coined a term which you may have read, which is er which is called PM zed! Or PM zee, I suppose in America which she terms post-menopausal zest! Is post menopausal zest something that er every woman could look forward to if she gets the right advice, the right Definitely! treatment? Yes,! I think this being an old hag is what is all in the mind! If you're determined to enjoy the rest of your life you will! Be positive! Be positive about it, yes! I don't agree with that Sheena! No! You only have to listen to what women here have told you and it's not psychological! It's a myth! It is physiological! And there are plenty of people who have spoken here tonight have substantiated that! Mhm. , my first years had two children, had no breast problems and I'm having a horrendous time just now and I'm on H R T, I'm on my third different kind! And I've had so , examinations and my doctor is very good! Do , the doctor I have now is very good and very sympathetic! But she feels there's nothing you actually can do to help me with! Final word? As I've said, I've been on H R T for three years and, I have since went back to work after being on H R T I don't think I'm an old hag! I don't want to be like a film star, but I do want a better quality of life and I've got that with H R T! We're going to have to end and I'm sorry about that because er, it's been very interesting! You've heard a very broad range of views, erm, of all sorts! I think the most important thing that we've done is talk about it. Ninety one people here wanted more information. There is information available. I hope you can find it, er if yo if er if you want and and the important thing is to keep talking about it, keep exchanging information. Thanks everybody here for your experiences and information! Goodbye! So what job is it you do in the factory? Oh I get the samples, now. I used to be a spooler, worked a machine, but I got moved to the samples about six years ago. Aha. Have you worked in B M K in a long while? Er forty years. Forty years? Mhm. Is this, was this your first job? Or did you Yes. ? No,I came straight here from school. Mhm, you have a wealth of experience then. So have you enjoyed working here? Do you like it? Yes, I liked the spooling. Mhm. And I like the job I've got now. Mhm. But er So what d what is your job now involve, what do you do? We cut up small pieces of carpet into different sizes and we've got about fifteen different folders Mhm. for each range of carpet. We stick it on with a hot glue gun. Mhm. and it gets sent out to all the representatives and all the shops. Mhm and is it basically kind of regular hours you do? You don't do shift work? No, we do overtime but no shift work. Mhm, mhm. And what first attracted you to the job? Did you have er relatives that worked here or was it the pay or? When I left school I had an aunt Aha, in the factory. And that was basically how you got ? Yes, yes. Do you have a lot of friends ? It used to be quite a custom that, you know that Aha. the families just followed Mhm. one another in Mhm. into the, the works and that, and that was how I started. Mhm. It's not so much like that now? No it's not. No it's not. So do you have a lot of friends in B M K, you know over the years have you made any firm pals? Oh aye, aye, you do. Mhm. You get attached especially at the spooling because you're working in twos. Oh I see. And over the years if you've been working with the same partner Aha. but my friend Jet is still a spooler and we still work together too. Mhm. Mm. Oh aye you get to know people that you've for years and years. Have you any nicknames for each other? Er no I don't think so. Really? I know some of them do but Not ones that you talk about anyway. Does, do, has technology affected your job? Have they brought any, in any machines that change things? Er not in my job, no. No. No. In other parts of the factory maybe? Aye, but not where I work. Not where you work. Everything's, you, just done with your hand. Mhm. Aye. Cheaper. Are there no union any more? We're in a union, oh I'm in a union. I pay union every week but er Which union is it that you're in? It'll be the like the carpet general workers in carpet industry. Yes, aha. Mhm. Aha. But er, never have I seen anybody for it , No. I just joined it after we came over but Mhm. I know a lot have pulled out of it Mhm. Mhm. Mm, why is that? Do they think it's useless? A lot do think it's useless. Mhm, mhm. But there again if there ever was a strike or that you've a wee bit protection. Aha. Mm. So you have What do feel about the changeover to non union and these new committees that they've now set up? Is it a big difference or? Oh it's just a fact now you've just have to go and do as you're told. Mhm. I mean you, if you're sent to do a certain job now you've just got to go and do it. Mhm. Years ago that just wouldn't have been. The idea of changing a light bulb, years ago, Really? I mean if it had been an electrician's job and They had quite strong union years ago? Oh aye, oh aye, just wouldn't have got given these jobs years ago. Aha. But now everybody just kind of mucks in and gets on with it. Mhm. So they do. So how do you find er arrangements things do, do you think the women are satisfied with the kind of provisions that there are made for them, the like of maternity leave and pay and things like that, health and safety? Och I think so, aye I think they are. It's Because er I mean you, they still get their maternity leave Mhm. and they've got to have their job kept open for them. Is that right? Oh that's good, quite Aha, mhm, the job's got to be there for them up till twenty six weeks I think. So you feel quite secure? Oh I think so. And er are there any opportunities like to come back and work part time if you've got children? No, we don't have a lot of part-timers. They have recently started in this factory here, they do a twilight shift. Mhm. I think it's at the picking. Mhm. But er not that factory over there, they don't. Mhm, mhm. Erm so do you have a family? Yes I've got two daughters. And do you, how do you organize things like looking after your family will everybody muck in or Well they're all married, aye, they've all grown up you see. Grown up now? Mhm. When you were working here did you always kind of? When I started at first erm I just de depended on my mother. Mhm. Because I had some personal problems at the start and the two girls were small when I come working Mhm. but my mother was there. Mhm. And then they've grew up now. Oh that's good. Cos one got married in December, oh the oldest one's still in the in the house Aha. just having me that we manage fine. And what do your daughters do, do they work? Er Larine but she's not working just now, Mhm. and Leigh works at the airport Mhm. at Prestwick. So you wouldn't encourage them to work in, work in here? Och it's been a good job to me. Aha. Mm. I mean and when I was a spooler I, I really enjoyed it because I had job satisfaction at the spooling, Aha. with nice carpets and Aha. it's good to know they're maybe still lying on somebody's floor. Do you think there is a lot of that, people are quite proud of the work they're putting in? Not so much now. No. No. In the past? Mhm Mhm. Mhm, don't have the same pride now. Why do you think that is? I don't know it's I think it's now jus just a job now, you know it's Mhm. just Mhm. specially after it was taken over I think it was The, the kind of spirit of things is Mhm, mhm. Mm, so it's a big change from Aye. the way it used to be? It is, oh aye. Do you feel it's kind of downhill? It's er it's still running but that's it. Aha. It's still a job to come to but So do you feel that, I mean in the, in the years you've worked here is the women as important as they always were in the factory? You know how they used to do a lot of weaving, they don't do so much now. No there are only two women at the weaving now. Mhm. There used to be about, a lot of them, there used to be a whole floor, er Mhm. when it was in Street. They were all women Mhm. but we've only got two now. Mhm. The majority Er now working in different departments then? the spoolers are all women. Mhm. And the winding is all women, they do shift work. Mhm, do you think that women are just better suited to these jobs, is that right?women. Well I don't know because years ago they trained er chaps to do the spooling and they were goo they were managing fine Mhm. they were on a night shift too then. Mhm. When they had the boys in. Mhm. And you could do it. Mm. But er they just don't seem to employ the boys Aha. to do it now. And how about apprenticeships and things, are there any apprenticeships for women? They've started recently, they d they didn't do it for years, we hadn't been training anybody and that was unusual because when it was the big factory you were always bringing in the school leavers Aha. but we've got apprentice tenters, I mean er now being trained and there's er four new spoolers Mhm. young girls being trained for the spool. Mhm do you So that's feel that's, that's maybe a good thing? Oh aye, had to be because I mean you don't stay young forever, Mhm. you've got have somebody That's right. coming behind you that's able to do it. That's right, aha. It's bound to be a good thing. And is it, I mean it used to just be men who would do these things and Mhm. women maybe worked in the jobs and yet didn't have a, a piece of paper to prove Aha. they were only going on their reputation Yes. factory . Mhm. Mhm. So what do you, I mean do you get on alright with the management or do you feel that it's mostly, is the management mostly male and do you feel that er there should maybe be a wee bit more representation for the women workers in management? Oh I suppose there could be better representation for the women because the management is all male. Mhm, mhm. So it is, Mhm. but er Have they not had pressure from people that would Mhm. prefer bit more er maybe more opportunities for women to go into management? To go up into management, aha, there's nothing like that in here. Mhm, rather than bringing people in Mhm. from outside. I mean the management we've still got is the same as what we had Mhm. seven year ago when it was changed over, nothing's changed there so Mhm Mhm. it's just the same. And what happened at the changeover, did they just fire you all and then reinstate you? They, they worked it down, and down and down, for two or three months, Mhm. there were always people getting paid off, and eventually out of about two hundred spooler there were only eight left Mhm. and that's, we, we come over here then, and that Mhm. was all we had. Two or three weavers, eight spoolers, I think it was four winders Mhm. er but gradually they've been building the workforce back up again, Mhm. it's quite healthy just now. So where were you based before this? Just on the other side of the river, it's been knocked Oh I see. down now. office block is, have aha. you seen the big glass offi Aha. that's all that's left standing, that Aha. was all B M K, right round about it. Aha. They had the the winding place Mhm. and the, the dye work and the spinning mill, they did their own spinning and everything. Mhm. They don't do that now? No. No. They still do their own winding but they d they don't do their own dyeing Mhm. or spinning, that's bought in now. Mhm. Mhm. We get told that erm in the early times there was quite a bit of social activities going on, lots of clubs and things Mhm. and er film shows and things like that. Oh years ago? Mhm. They used to have a photographic club, and all the sports, they had the golf and er billiards and pool and swimming like that? Swimming club, I used to go to the swimming club. Mhm. Did you ever win anything? Er no . Just for the fun. No, just for fun. How about the works dances? What were they like? Were they good? Oh aye, yes, oh aye they were good. Yes they were. Big occasions? We used to have er what they called the Dance in summertime, Aha. when the boys were out with their flannels and sports jackets and and girls all in their big sticky out underskirts. Whereabouts would that be held? They were all held in the grand hall. Oh aha. Mhm. Mhm. Er did everybody go? Oh aye, five hundred people at a time went to them, and Mhm. then we had works big ball in the wintertime, when you went with your long dress on, and your gloves, you know your . Used to be great. did you do, was it spot waltzes and raffles and things? Oh aye. All that kind of thing? Aye, that's Did you have like a buffet? Yes. Mhm. Mhm, good. I mean went to this kind of thing, it was Oh aye it was awfully popular. Mhm, mhm. Talked about for a week afterwards? Aye Oh it was a highlight, the works dance. You don't have anything like that now? No, no nothing, I think it's discos now. Aha. Er They still have a, they hold a Christmas disco. Do they? Aye, but it's Is it mostly younger ones that go to that, No I find that usually quite a mixed crowd goes to it. Oh that's good. Aye they do. So how about trips, did you go on any works trips? Oh we used to go on the works trips, aha, we used to go to Rothesay Rothesay? Aye, we went on the train to Dunfermline and we used to have a lot of trips. Was that quite a kind of regular thing? Mhm, that was your that was your summer outing. Aha. Aye, we used to have a works magazine. Aha. In fact if I'd known I was coming here I could have brought you some in, let you seen what we used to do. smashing, aha. Er we used to have the the works magazine that was come out every month. Aha. Cos we used to have a lot of factories you see Mhm. there was , and in Ireland, Mhm. Yeah that's right. Mhm. and the one that, that in Canada, Mhm. well we used to get the news for the and that was put in the magazine too. Mhm. That's right. Who got married, who'd babies, who died. Mhm. I just let everybody big family Ken, you know everything about everybody, That's good aha. But er I heard they was maybe gonna start up another magazine. We've had a magazine since we came over but I don't think they just had enough to put in it and Mhm. there Right. hasn't been one published for a long while. Mm. Er the News Shuttle they called it. Yes, Mhm, it was just a wee bit quite a big one we used to call it Mhm, mhm. Quite a good thing. Aye it was good. Full of gossip? Did you have any children's parties or things like that? They used to have that too but they don't have that Mhm. now because they No. used to have a welfare committee Aha. Aye. and they had and the older children were, were taken to the pantomime Mhm. and the young ones go to the Christmas party. They were held in the canteen. Mhm. And er oh it used to be great fun And how did you raise funds for that? It was just taken out of the welfare every week. Mhm. We used to pay for Mhm. but they don't have a committee or anything Mm. like that No. now. Mhm, and do you do things like maybe send people out to visit the sick people that were off? Mhm. Off their work? Yes. Mhm, with a basket of fruit or something? Oh and send flowers. Mhm. Oh we still do that if we know anybody's off Do you, aha. and from our own departments, in each Aha. department does it if there's anybody off ill. Send flowers and that. And how about pay offs, do you go through the whole with the chanting and that? Yes. That's still going on. And take them round the factory? Yes, take them round the factory. Does that happen so much now? Aye still do it. Quite a lot? Mhm. Aha. Mhm. That's good. We had one just the other about a fortnight ago Aha. so we did. Oh aye, still have the pay off. You're wild. And wild's the word. big woman out there at the wi the weaving, one of the weavers, and if there's one of the chaps who there getting married oh she straps them down to the weaving . So she does, she ties them, see you come in in the morning to clock in and and it's oh my God, it's it's , I mean she covers them with waste and oil But she'll not let anybody by without putting something in his box. Do they still do that now with people that are maybe er completed their apprenticeships, do they anything to them? No, no they don't much, they used to do that, mhm, mhm I know they used to do that, aha. Mm, no, Madeleine's great fun. Tie them up. Did I ask you about nicknames? Aye, you did. You're not letting us know anyway. Oh you must have some nicknames for the bosses. There must have been nicknames but er can't really, don't really remember. Mhm. Mhm. Do you find that erm the likes of yourself and your workmates do you have a lot of kind of views in common and things, do you think that you're maybe kind of the same political persuasions or whatever? Oh aye, oh aye, I think it's, mhm That comes through the job Mhm. maybe. Aye, you usually find that. The same kind of outlook on life. Mhm, mhm. So I mean your yourself how do you feel the town's been changed over these few years? ? Aye. Oh there's nothing left in it. You know you used to have a choice of jobs but you don't now. declined very much it? Mhm. The industry in this town used to be great but everything's shutting. Just not there any more, you've got to go to the town now to work. Do you think the younger generation are in a worse position than what you were in when you started work? Aye, aye, mhm. Oh aye, aha. Definitely. Do you see improvement on I don't think so. Maybe in the, in the, outlying districts maybe, but I think they'll have to travel to go to work. Aye. Mhm. I can't see much more coming back to the town now. Mhm, that's right. They've just made it into a town where people are travelling out to go to work Aye. cos they've developed urban job. I can't ever see the factories coming back that used to be with, you know they're all be smaller work loads now Aye. Mhm. where they're at one and two thousand people working for them, I can't see that ever coming back, you know like the ? Mhm. Mhm. How many folk used to work here when it was kind of at it's ? I think there was eleven hundred before they started Chopping. Aha. Mm. I think it was about eleven hundred. So what would you say now, maybe about four to five hundred? Aye, we're back up to about five hundred I think. Mhm, right. So Do you feel quite erm your jobs are quite safe, you don't feel under Not really, not really, you just, we've been there seven years now Mhm. and it's just been another seven years you've been able to work Mhm. but you don't know just how long it's going to be going on. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. Cos if it ever gets where it's not making money I suppose it'll just shut. Mhm, mhm. So it will but however it's been quite fortunate just now, quite busy. Thanks a lot. Thanks very much. You're welcome. I think the Labour Party's heart is in the right place, they want to take a positive approach and do what they can to help industry, to train, to put more money into training youngsters for industry then we have a skill work force, not a cheap, not a cheap unskilled labour force, er, you know, which is what we, what's happening now, because we've just not been trained, they're cutting the training, but it's all the same, anyway you know, I, I, I don't know, you say what can I do for ya, well er in the short run not much except to help the, the people who are on lower income and the children through the budget er which will be introduced, it'll be that why er through er child benefits and through er high, high benefits and through er, er lower taxes for the, everybody up to er twenty odd, twenty five thousand year or something, so, erm I mean that's in the short run and little that can be done, it's not as much as anybody would like, you put more and more into, into er, into training, er more money into industry to help them to invest, er you know you can have a sort of regional development banks to help industry to invest these in, in each of the regions, but I mean the, these are the positive plans and not like this one who's just letting things go. If, if under, if and I hope that your crowd get in, see, I think Yeah as I say I'm just fed up with this lot, what is the outlook on er income tax? Well Cos I mean we know it's going up whoever gets in they're gonna put it up well you know, John Smith laid out his budget for the next, study for the, to cover the next two years and there, I mean there's no intention to, to change it in the foreseeable future, I mean they've laid it out for two years so that the basic rate stays the same, that the personal allowances are being increased so that this will take a lot of lower paid people out of tax and that coupled with the child benefit will make everybody up to about twenty two thousand a year better off, and then from there they'll be a, a, a range of people who to it won't make much difference No overall certainly if they've got children, but if we get above thirty, forty thousand a year, it'll take more the other people who've gained so much Yeah out of the last ten years Yeah, yeah it's not, it's not been fair Ooh aye it's not, it's not fair, I agree and not, not only on income tax but on poll tax local tax Yeah, yeah That's right cos I mean that, that's just a joke that do you think Labour would alter the poll tax and put it back to its sort of original sort of rating system? We're going back to a kind of rating system with the different assessment on valuations Yeah, it's fair int it? The bigger the house the more money you should pay. the Tories are gonna introduce their alternative, but they're still going to through this banding system, the whole objective of that is to, is to make sure that the better off people don't pay their full whack Mm instead of paying er, you know, three or four times in a, for a big house to, to a very modern poor house Yeah er they only pay sort of one and a half or twice that's the, that's the purpose of the Tories Well what el what's the other alternative for this VAT? cos I mean it was the Tories who brought this VAT system into operation, I mean it's wrong Well when you think about it, it's wrong you're paying tax on your wages at source and then you go to the shops and you've got to pay tax on your goods again Well I hope that That's right it's totally wrong when we got a A taxation system in place which would be fair, which means that the people in the big houses pay more, then we can do something about, maybe making the local people er pay more and reducing central taxes, reducing the VAT, it's not gonna be quick but No. there's, there's no commitment to reduce VAT in the, in the Labour manifesto, but I mean er that will be the spirit of what we wanna do to make the people I hope you can, I hope you can do something with it, because being truthful I just, it's just I'm just warming my hands, it's cold outside Yeah you're welcome it's just anyway I'd better press on it's just a joke what they do He'll have you here all night Anyway you make sure you'll vote anyway We will yeah Oh yes without a doubt thanks Cheerio now goodnight, come on in Michael Mummy what did the lady want? Oh what did he want? about me graphs, oh I know he will, this will happen now He said Oh mummy er I went in the office and he said er I'd been stood there about twenty minutes at the window and everybody was flitting around like a bee from flower to flower and they just left me stood there, so I never said anything, go on the back I'm stood there and he said, all of a sudden he comes, cos he already had one of the lads in Ian Mm. says to me, er can I have your graphs please John for last week Where's the time? so I goes and gets them goes in the office Deana and he kept, all he was interested in Deana was erm Deana it's fifteen minutes stop on the way back Oh so he said what's this here? Said I've been sorting the notes out, I've put them in order back in, so that when he comes to the window all that the office staff gotta do is look through, like we was told to do Yeah fifteen minutes he said but you've got twenty minutes here, I said well yeah Nick you've got to fill the return book in as well I said and, he said what, I said well what day was it? He said that was last Friday, oh I said I was filling my timesheet in and my expense sheet, not that long, I said well it takes as long as it takes don't it? Mum No he says I could do it in a lot less time than that, he said and a lot neater, I said, you saying I'm a scruffy writer? Don't think you'd have to I said that to him and he looked at me over the top of his glasses like that, cos he, in his office, he sits here, the door's there, he sits here and I, I, everybody else has had the door open, I went in and shut the door and I stood behind him, I didn't stand in front of him, stood behind him so, keep away and then all of a sudden he gets his, calculator out and it's I said excuse me Eric I said not wishing to be appear thick, I said but, what you doing? He said Mum have you got the tape recorder on? I'm calculating kilometres into miles so All you have to do is talk normally, just ignore it Oh right said okay, I said and what's the formula that you use? And he told me, he told me, I've got it written on the back of me hand I thought it was brilliant that, I thought little do you know what I'm gonna use that for he never phoned me for a, he's not phoned me for Maybe he'll phone tomorrow, d'ya think I'll get four out of that? where do you think I'm going? Birmingham Wrong Manchester you know that don't ya? It's only the kids that are gonna be able to have this you know Well give it to the kids then Michael stop it I'm gonna have a rum in a minute Mm? I'm gonna have a rum in a minute, I think I'm gonna take a valium oh it's a bit late for them starting Jane I think on Valium They can have a biscuit What's for tea? Casserole Mum have I time for a scrub or what? Yeah Eh? Well Michael, right I'm gonna turn this off for a bit You messing my work? No right come on you two get on with it Can I just you've got a little remote What are you doing?, what did you do with Michael's bowl?try and, come on, are you ready for bed? You've cleaned your teeth and everything? Stacey come on I've done everything Have you been on the loo? No I don't even need the loo Er, well get on it please before you go to bed and put some cream on Can I have Michael's squeaky squeak? Please yourself Thank you, can Michael Where is he? Here Come on, right tomorrow we're going to strip these beds I know you've told me this look at the state of it Deana look I know keep, I picked everything up so I can get my lamp on, I, after I put the lamp on that's been there all day, come on Deana, if you're gonna have the lamp on you're gonna have to put something away, some books or is that packet any good now? Well alright, but can you, can you not get rid of a couple of the boxes and what's this thing there?well why don't you tip it up the other way and give yourself a bit more room, tomorrow Deana what's that, your dictionary? That book at the end of the shelf? That's a library book. Talking of which, what's the date on it? It should've been back by now, some day in March, twenty eighth of March Mm Mummy can I play with this? oh I wondered where it was, yes alright if you stand things up edge to edge, you'll have a bit more room won't ya? There's half that stuff on there doesn't have to be there does it? No Eh? You wanna get it sorted out and tidied up tomorrow, it's too late to do it now I just tidy this end up quickly quickly and then tomorrow you can take everything off right, everything, dust it and rearrange everything, okay? Yeah, Stacey, Stacey said I could keep this like this, she said she wouldn't mind Well you're gonna have to put the wire down, run it down the bottom Mummy is this my ? and you wanna run it down the back, Deana take the wire down the back of all your books on the shelf Mummy is this my ? Shall I do it now? No do it tomorrow, take everything off tomorrow and when we pull the beds out, strip the beds you can vac all behind the beds, right? And then sort it out properly Mummy this my one? just for now put things up, look, what you can't get on your shelf put on the drawers because you know I'll put on the drawers what's gonna happen, you're only gonna lose them all down the back Mum come on is this my right sunshine what you up to? What have you got? Oh Michael stop it, oh Michael that's dirty come on, arms up, you're soaking wet come on wash your hands put your hands in, that's it, come here, no, leave the plug alone, what? Is this my ? The one that I left on your bed? Yeah Yeah, but use your other one up first, no Michael, put your hands in put your hands in, in the water, I'm gonna sm Michael put your hands in the water, right come here Mummy do I need a new one? Whoop I need a new one I can't I've run out Let me see the other one first. I can't, I can't find it Show me the other one first and you can find it oh no you don't, come here You put like we'll sort it out properly tomorrow Stacey Michael up, now what have you got? Mum I can't find it Alright, start on your new one Thank you Stacey I want you anyway, come in the bathroom, Michael leave it alone, open your mouth, open, come on that's right, open again Do you think I need a brace? Oh, I don't know whether you need a brace or not, open, Michael don't know what they are Stacey you'll have to wait for them to grow properly, open Them are going square and my teeth, all my teeth Not everybody has a brace you know. look Leave it, mm, yeah, well they look funny because all your other teeth are little teeth, will you come here please? You can have some medicine come on and put some vaseline on your lips please This is the wrong one. No it's not Oh I remember that other stuff that used to have to have Mm, mm and I didn't even like it so the doctor had to change it for me Oh, well you've got it back now, right are you ready? Yeah Right get into bed, I'll be in in a minute, Michael is he in with you? Yeah Right, look at, this is a tip this, what's this doing on the floor? Now that's a bit better isn't it mummy? Yeah a little bit, the whole place is a mess though isn't it? It's gonna have to be really done tomorrow come on, oi, right come on, say goodnight to , oh up the top Ah, ma kiss, kiss that was a quickie, right kiss Stacey, kiss, kiss Urgh on me nose right wave ni-night, ni-night ni-night, night, night ni-night right you've got till nine o'clock, give us a kiss And nine o'clock for this ni-night and Stacey you can lay down and listen to the story, come on put your stuff away and lay down, good night Good night Good night ah I did ask you to put those dresses away, will you do them please in the morning? Otherwise they're not gonna be fit for wearing ta where have you been? Even your feet are wet, what have you been doing? Eh? Bill went out in the garage yeah and missed him You would he said you could cut that tree down when you're ready. Eh? He said you could cut that tree. You said it was Hilda Well Hilda I like while they're away, well, she never, she was quite happy to let you go ahead and do it she said, the only thing was, she said she'd miss having the privacy in that corner because of being overlooked at the back. Does she want the stump digging up as well? Well I don't know she never said any Well I take a piece of that and I'll make you a bird table out of the piece of trunk Alright about that much yes and we'll put a cross on the bottom of it and I'll put you a piece of plywood across it and you can stick your nuts on or whatever mm. you only want something simple don't ya? Oh aye, she's gonna put like er erm, you know, trailing stuff over the fence, I suppose that's what we'll use as well to brighten it up a bit look at that, int that a waste? She's taking one mouthful out of that Who's that ? That's that Hark at me boy Are you gonna go up to him? I was gonna wash the pots up so Mm? I was going to wash the pots I'll go and smack him round the head He's not been too bad but I tried to put him to sleep upstairs didn't I this afternoon? And he got upset, so I ended up having to bring him downstairs, give him his lunch first and then I put him to sleep in his pram this is all since the weekend this Yeah. he'd been alright before that. Did he get you up last night? Er what time was it? I got up to him a couple of times once he only Go to sleep Michael stirred I must of, don't know what happened this morning, I put the alarm off and turned over and went back to sleep again, it was about ten to eight before I finally got up. And then the kids have gotta get up. Yeah I had to iron their blouses as well forgot the blouses didn't I? I want Stacey's lunch box Eh? I want Stacey's lunch box that's Go to sleep Michael, go to bo-bos, bo-bos time I think we're just gonna have to let him moan I wouldn't mind, but until last weekend, he never give a dickie bird about going to sleep I think it was that came in and set him off she should've just left him on to it instead of trying to do it herself These are Mm? The plates Yeah I know, do that last What time's the plane in the morning? I don't know, she said she was leaving here at quarter to five Oh, well I won't see 'em, I've got a seven o'clock start. Have ya? I don't want a cup of tea You're not gonna get one. it's too early Please yourself. if I happen to be awake at that time, then yes, but, if I don't have Well make your mind up No yes or no? I said if I'm awake when you get up then yes, but don't wake me up I wouldn't get, I wouldn't mind if it was bloody six o'clock but it wasn't it was more like half past. It wasn't it was more like twenty past and I was deep in the land of nod You'd been asleep, you was not in the land of nod at all. I was last week That bloody pie's repeating on me. It wasn't a pie, it was a casserole. The pie Oh the apple pie, sorry That boy make noise, chuck him out of bed I would Oops, sorry You will be did you ask my permission? No. Then don't . Sorry. You will be. Oh dear, I hope it's not going to be one of those nights Go to sleep Michael just have a still won't go. He will in a minute, I'll go up to him I'll leave you to do that dirty horrible casserole dish. I knew that was coming you only leave me to do the shit, I never get the good stuff just the crap ah shut up what was that? What was what? Dunno I didn't hear anything. I don't think so, I didn't hear anything John what, him knocking one of the cupboard doors or something John I didn't hear anything Here you are Stacey come on sit up come on oh managed to keep him in bed with you all night, here are Thank you. Mum you know when you had to take Michael downstairs when he was screaming, Stacey was, he would've gone off just Stacey was chat was talking. I don't think Stacey had a lot to do with it actually apart from disturbing him coming outside Yeah well by then you'd, you'd already messed him up, she must've got him to sleep before she put him down in the cot did she? Nothing to do whether it was you from, from Saturday he's never been the same, will you pick up your pen before they go on the floor, what else have you got lurking on the bottom of your bed? how many do you want? Pass it to me please thank you, Stacey can you reach the erm, no Deana can do it, can you climb down and go and get me one of my tablets please? Which one's clean? Which one are you wearing? The pink one? The pink one I can't wear it. Why? You, you, I've not got a slip You're not wearing any of them? No. You have got an underslip downstairs. I know it needs ironing. Doesn't need ironing Hello, what did you get on your hand? Mm give me your hand then what, no, coming out? Who is it? Who's that? Stacey, Stacey, say Stacey, who's, where's Deana, Deana in here Hello there she is, there she is give kiss Go on Stacey get back in bed to drink your tea Hello, say hello, say hello on it, say Oh the little man's coming, what's he doing? Move over Stacey Oh you might knock it No that's Stacey's, I'll give you yours in a minute, there you are, here are sit still, ta mm you gonna put that yellow vest on then Deana? Yeah Mum You might as well take can you take the tape recorder anywhere? Oh here are In her pocket Well why is she doing it? I told you yesterday, erm The money? Right Stacey sit down, pull the bench out please Can I open this one for you? No leave it now come on come on, sit down and start copying those out as well please. How can I? I haven't got a pen. I'm giving you a pen now copy them out and don't spill it, Deana sit down move up a bit. Deana What? I go there. Yeah, you'll have to let Stacey in the middle for doing her spelling Okay. Why do I have to do it in the middle? Told ya I always seem to use up all the cereals in one go. Do ya? Mm, no free samples though is there? I don't think, is there a free sample? oh it's, it's a pen. A pen? Yeah, they're asking you to do a survey thing. Can I open it? If you want to, see if there's a coupon in it. Can I open this one? No, let Michael have it, Stacey come on sit down and do your breakfast so we can do your spelling please. I want to open these, please. Hurry up Stacey Yep I've only just done one of those surveys the other week, is there a coupon with it? No Michael you're not having the pen, he's after the pen Stacey that's all. No I don't think there is, can I open this one? Michael's not playing with this it's your favourite colour What the pen? it's blue, you don't like black biros do ya? No. No it's blue, Michael open it, Michael open it, mummy shall I open it for him? If you want to. No it's got a coupon as well look you sit down and get on with your breakfast, I won't tell you again. Mum what is your favourite colour? I don't know really, just a minute, let me open it, I can't get the top of that one, hang on here are, come on Stacey get on with it can you move up a bit? What?why didn't you pull the bench out? Cos she's just too lazy to get off of her bottom. Get up please, go to the other end of the table right, go on Oh I've got it all to myself. come on, right time is nearly twenty past, now sit down and get on with it what?there are come on Deana you get on you're I just can't help wondering something What? Suit yourself. Tell you later. Don't bother Deana You'll find out in a minute when you Right, come on, do you want some more milk Stacey? Yes. Would you like to go and bring it over then? And you stop dropping your pen, can I do it please? Are you going shopping today? Sort of. I think about it This is yellow. You must be Samson Stacey cos I couldn't do it? Do what? Samson What's that? Strong come on hurry up with those words Maybe hands were squeaking I don't know what they were, I certainly wouldn't open that pen Michael you've made a right mess Come on come on Stacey concentrate on what you're doing I am look at that It's cos you've got the paper wet, go over there a bit Oh no the pen won't work. Yes it will. Cos the paper's wet Look. I told you move over to the other side a little bit, you've got plenty of room at the bottom, start again what's the, what letter are you doing? What word? Lay. Lay, right, give me the pen, right do said and do lay after come on work your way across, hurry up Stacey please work your way across not down and you've just dropped your pen haven't ya? Why didn't you start at the top and work across instead of working down? Stacey don't write so big, you're making a mess We're not having spelling this week, with us, do you know why? No. Shall I tell ya? Yeah. Because we forgot to do, we forgot to do the spelling test last Friday, so we had to do it on Monday so we didn't get any spelling this week, so right now we didn't have a spelling test, this is brilliant, guess what we do now? What? Table test. That's probably why you haven't got a spelling test. No it isn't we, we have, on Monday we had a spelling test and a table test, but the table was quite easy. Have you been practising? We don't need to we've already done them. You know them that well you can be cocky about it? No not cocky, but I know them. So you know them Six, seven eight, nines so you know that you're going to get them all right? I hope so, I've got twenty out of twenty so far I have to do a spell test each day with twenty in, with twenty in each one Have I got all In each week you mean? Mm, mm, do it today, we're doing that today. What, your tables? Yeah. have I got all Er you get on with what you're doing please what, what you mm-ing at? What have you dropped this time? Mum is this hoop? Hope,ho hope, write properly, if it was hoop it'd have two Os wouldn't it? Hoop, has it got two Os? It's got the E after the P which makes the O become an O sound doesn't it? Write properly Stacey come on, say it out to yourself, what are you making such a row? Oh What you've dropped your pen, well say pen then Like you go to the doctors, you didn't Mm, come on Stacey. I think it's brilliant, and when I came out of hospital you said mummy, I said I want to stay here for a couple of days is that Stacey? Are you saying that to yourself rope, hope? Yes. Cope, you haven't got cope on there. You haven't got, has it got, it's not got cope. No. Come on Stacey Why haven't I got it? I don't know you only put so many down can't you? Stac Deana I mean will you go upstairs and get the tray with the cups on it please? Yeah. Put those in the fridge. Easy what have we got in our sandwiches? Chicken. That's easy that, mummy. Did what? Did I do my bag yesterday? No I did it last night. Now don't mind me and don't mind it. Is it on now? Yeah. Don't you have to plug it in or? No. And what you want then? You want some extraordinary words to put in this dictionary like that No it's just an ordinary conversation Oh. that people er, just ordinary talking. Er will you play it back to us afterwards? Well er I sound like I sound like Hilda Ogden on the You, you don't sound at all what you think you sound do ya? No, no. I was disgusted when I first heard my voice Can you remember when you er Mike had it behind the settee at Pigmere Close and he played it backed? I sounded terrible. Mm that's the worse one I've ever heard. mm oh she's bad enough when not on tape. I know, she seems to screech don't she? But Well we got er Mrs that was in she's like, when she comes on phone you've got to hold it like that. Yeah, yeah. I haven't, you know I haven't dared shown John's mum, but with Michael's birthday we got a video camera out and we videoed her talking, but I'm not she heard herself on the video, I'm sure she oh you've heard her she is, she's terrible, I was gonna do that coupon then she waves at you, she's spotted you, he's lovely Yeah and Uncle Frank was saying those bushes were nice, I hadn't even noticed them. What, in new house? Yeah he must of erm Well they've all flowered then. they must of started coming out Yeah. cos I said, oh we're having all sorts of different cuttings off from yeah, but, if you flatten that you want to put yeah I will do cos there very expensive them bushes in there but I said to him, I said to him there's loads of bushes in the back as well Yeah. she were Yeah. saying they all flower in the summer But is she gonna take any or not? No. No. No cos she's got a great big garden like yours Has she? she's actually, did I tell ya I asked her what Charmwood meant, you know cos it's called Charmwood, yes. Charmwood the house and she was saying when her mum and dad were courting, where they used to do the co courting, like must of been a wood and that I think Yes Oi there was a place close by called Charmwood so There is it's near Betty. Oh is there? And also I think it was at Oh it, I've been there. was it in the Midlands? Yeah. And there's erm, there was a firm Charmwood as well Oh. so that's why her mum and dad called it Charmwood cos it's where they did their courting. It's nice, it's lovely. Oh she said she's gonna erm, part of the garden in Wales she's having it made into like a rose garden or something it's like a, did she say it's an acre Smallholding Mm yeah it's like a smallholder and she's gonna call that Charmwood. Yeah. Oh can you imagine what that's like if they have one? She said she's had some that extension She drives you bloody dizzy so I don't know what she's No she said she's been to have a look at, it's Glenys I don't, no not Glenys Glenys, yeah. Glenys has she had an extension? yeah and she said it was quite a good thing Yeah. when I told her about and she come running back to me on phone the other week Glenys, Glenys, she said will you tell people if they spend twenty five pound at Tescos, I thought well that won't be me, or is it thirty, you get a thing and to take it to school to put towards computers Oh. Yes I've heard about Why's that at? What school? no because it's Saint Mark's, it's at Woodbone Road mm, I've not heard of that one. What? I won't be spending twenty five pounds Well on the what's the name next week on erm you know that Granada report where they do, they cook a meal Yeah er getting this woman to do erm and it's gonna be lovely that extension is that, you know by the plans and the pictures. Yeah, I suppose to, you know with you saying it's quite a biggish house, I said erm, does she need it like so she said yeah because the two kids are in one bedroom. Who's this, our Glen? Mm well she's having another bedroom which make it four bedrooms. Yeah. Oh it looks lovely, you know the, how the architect has done it from Yeah. the front, the side and the back It'll be very nice Margaret when it's done. it was only with your mum saying it was quite a biggish house anyway Well it is, I think she's just, she wanted to, to do a bigger third bedroom Mm and she's had this bloke round and I think he's and they've taught her he's recommended to her that instead of making the third bedroom bigger, to make four bedrooms because it would increase the value of the house more. The house I mean anybody else would of made do with a little bedroom, I mean it's big enough to get a bed and a dressing table and what in, and it's bigger, it's a lot bigger than mine What I suppose she thinks is if she can afford to do it, do it. Who's this? Pam, Pam. she's had all her plans done for her Has she? extension, this bloke come round Come on pop what you doing, where's your ? This is for the son's bedroom? Well it, when he, she originally wanted him to do plans to make the third bedroom bigger which would of been like an L shaped bedroom Mm. but he recommended to her to actually make it into a fourth bedroom because it would increase the value of the house Yeah. and also So where they gonna put the, the other bedroom? At the side. At the side, so, but she's not having a garage or anything at the side, she's having a side extension down below, but the front bit she's having made into a shower room and then the back bit it's gonna be like a morning room to the kitchen Oh right. like where you go in the kitchen you turn right, like that one of mine over there, the sink's there on the right hand side Yeah. well she's gonna have that knocked into an archway through to a dining room Oh right, lovely. so it'll be lovely Mm. but erm, she just get So the third bedroom would go right across that extension then? Yeah well that'll be their bedroom That'll be the fourth fourth bedroom? Well it'll be such a big room, she said it'll be, oh I don't know what she said about sixteen by twelve or summat like that Yeah be lovely. so her and Ma Malcolm are gonna have that and Emma will have the front bedroom Come on Michael, come on. and then there be the third little bedroom in the middle which Pam has as a sewing room Yeah. well no she has it as a toy room don't she? A good idea to have a toy room like that. It is really. Yeah, it's great if you've got the room on the side to do it. with her being in a corner Jane I know. she's not, I mean the next door round the corner, like she's on the corner and the house here, it's been extended on the side, but it won't bring it anywhere near Pam's extension No. because it's in the corner Corner. you know? She could do it on the back an'all, she's got a third of an acre of garden, it's bloody massive. I think that's it, if you can get a house with plenty of, you know you can stay there and live for ever can't ya? Yeah you can, mm, you can do that can't ya? I just don't, hope they don't bring the rates back into bloody force, but she will be with all that land Mm, oh she will be won't she? Mind you that's what Labour want to do don't they? Mm. Well, well the Conservative, are they going to leave it as it is? No, no they're just gonna No they brought a new thing out, it's not the poll tax it's called something else int it? Er it's like, it's the same flaming thing really But Labour want to bring back the Ordinary rateable value Yeah sort of more or less sort of yeah, I think it'll be more means tested won't it? Yes, we had the Labour candidate knocking on our door yesterday and I think John must of been in a right foul mood, cos he he says come in and talk to me Oh my God. in the end I mean normally it was the other way round, the Labour candidate couldn't wait to get out, cos you know trying to get out the door and John was Yeah. giving it this Yeah. he doesn't normally you know, but No. normally they want to get in and start waffling Well the bloody Conservative come er through with the er postman so I just picked it up, opened it, ripped it up and it was in bloody bin before postman got to gate bloody Major and that Lamont, and the post together, yesterday. Was that today? Yesterday. I got a Liberal one through the post. And then the woman, the fella from Liberal Democrats come and he goes erm, can I rely on your vote? I said no actually Mm, they've got the Labour and the Conservative both in same . Oh have they? Yeah. Have they? You see I put me poster up in the window and then me flipping dad said to me I don't know whether you should have that poster up, what if Miss is around, Conservative, so I bloody took it down and put it in a magazine, I thought when we've got Oh she's bound to be when we've exchanged contracts I'll put it back up again, no, well I mean like whatsername across the road, you know erm Stuart's brother Yeah. I mean he's a rank Labour, he's got everything up there cos he was telling Mike, I mean he's got his neck in a collar and he's been waiting I know. for that long to go and get it sorted out Oh. but he's so opposed to the National Health as it is at the moment, you see Margaret a lot of these figures are being conned Yeah. what they're doing is like What's that? people like Mike Mm. who've had that little, little operation like that Yeah. they're clearing the waiting list Mm. Yeah. because they just go in in the day and they come out on the Yeah. same day Yeah, yeah. but a more intricate type of operation, where you've got to be in for a day, they're not No. getting rid of those at all, they're just getting rid of Replacements and yeah they're they're still waiting a couple of years for them Jane I know. all look at that, was it next year they got, somebody got er, what er, another date and it was next Febru who was it? That girl on the telly, from Tesco Yeah, yeah. that we saw I don't know. Well look at Billy he's waiting to have his eyes tested Yeah. be seen to at the eye hospital, Sir John said in January I'll send you to Altrincham because they have a specialist, go to the, like they have one go to the Cottage, each, a different like a skin one day, summat, so like you're there and you're not traipsing for the eye hospital Mm. but this one goes to Altrincham er about six weeks after, July Oh. but if he had sent him to the eye hospital he'd have waited two years. Yeah. Can't credit it and your eyes are precious aren't they? Mm, well I mean that's what they're gonna do take the eye test charge off and the teeth charge off as soon as they get in, well it'll all materialize don't they? Well I hope so, does that mean I ought to wait, my appointment's the end of, oh the end of April I must just be able to Ooh, aye well oh what, that's what Sam over road said I mean he had open heart surgery, said I don't know what I'd of done without the National Health Mm, that's it, int it you could say said I've no qualms about 'em, and yet he's, somebody that votes for bloody Green Party, eh, he's just been up and voted for Green Party, I said I'd of stopped at home if I was you Er Theresa's friend she wants the hip redoing. I think it's come out You see the thing is is three thousand quid. a lot of it is er propaganda by the Conservative if, if they were gonna get it right, why couldn't they get it right in the thirteen years that they've been in power? Why haven't you done it in the time you've been in? He said no But look look at that Denise, Pam's friend Yeah. the about the little boy that they think he's dead Oh yeah. but she had to pay a hundred and eighty pounds in all That's right, Chris was telling me. so they've still got to go back in three months, she was, I hope I've not got to come back and pay, so what the What they waiting to have done? Something else, er, they can't determine it or something until he's a few months A bit older. Yeah. Yeah cos he's still only a baby int he? Yeah. It's very difficult until they can sort of reactions a bit quicker Yeah. Yeah. int it? Michael what you've done? What made me laugh was the Conservative broadcast on Wednesday was real propaganda, trying to frighten you to death that if the Labour got in Yeah. we'd have no nuclear weapons and Oh aye yeah I know that we'd be open to the Russians and all this sort of thing, it was really trying to frighten ya, what this soap box image he tries to give you know, a one man show, it's bloody path it's his voice It's that smile. his words no less But Kinnock he was really good with Robin Day last night Was he? oh cos Robin Day was really trying to get him with this nuclear thing Yeah. he kept going on and on and on and he said do you think it was an error of judgment and he was trying to get Kinnock to say yes and he said yes it was an error of judgment the way he, he'd sort of said I think he must of said in the mid seventies, that if he got in power he'd get rid of all nuclear weapons Yeah. but he was saying times have changed, so cos times have changed your opinions change Yeah. the fact is as Russia is now Yeah. you know, you woul they wouldn't get rid of all nuclear weapons the Labour No. I mean they'd cut down on defence Mm. but they won't get rid of all nuclear weapons, they know it's you know you can't Impossible. Oh he's, he's great Kinnock, but I still don't know whether I believe I don't like him. but I wouldn't vote, cos I didn't like him No. I wouldn't vote for anybody else. No you shouldn't really take it on him personally No. should you? No. You should take it on what the pu you see they keep going That's it. on about you're gonna be worse off, nobody who earns less than twenty two thousand is going to be worse No. off, and there's not a lot of people that I know of No. normal people like us, whose husbands earn more than twenty two thousand. how much is it a week? Well it's about four hundred pound a week int it? Over four hundred pound a week int it? Yeah, what are you doing now? But they're not actually come out with that Margaret cos after tax and insurance it's a lot less Yeah. but they, they would is that what, there won't be much left of it, is that what erm, they won't be in the higher tax bracket though would they? No, they'd go into the mid one wouldn't they? But it's the ones that are earning over forty thousand Ooh that would go up into the forty percent Yeah, so what's the next one, is there one between twenty five and forty? There isn't is there? I don't know it, he work, he was gonna work that Michael It's alright. You sure? I'll pick it up in a minute. There's something on the national insu about the national insurance as well, I can't think how he's gonna work that because he said it is the ones that are on over forty thousand that are gonna be Come on there's gonna be nothing left of that. Black banana. No. I don't know erm, do you know what we were saying the other night? How could they be short of money when everybody's always paying in money? Yeah and we've got all this money from the er North Sea Gas Yeah. Yeah, but that won't last for ever. but then they said work, they won't let them, the money that they've got on council houses, they won't let them spend it you see that? They won't, they won't. Well what's that staying as it is for? I don't know, but they won't let them do with it They should let them do all the houses up with it shouldn't they? They should let them buy more land and do more council building. Yeah you see they've gotta They've been trying to see about that lot where the boys' grammar school is int they? Yeah, yeah. Because they want to sell that, but they want it to be sort of like half private No. and half I suppose council houses Yeah. cos it's quite a big plot of land that int it? It must be mustn't it? Yeah. But oh, I don't know, whoever gets in it'll all still be the same in years so Of course it will. I can't see that it matters. Michael He's okay, he's only playing with them, aren't you love? Until he breaks, them, he's broken two at home. Has he? Mm, snaps the tapes. Ooh and he's such a lovely lad. Oh you wouldn't of said that last night. What, in the middle of the night? No, last night going to bed he's been, he's been smashing until Saturday You know he's been good going to bed. Deana put him to bed Saturday? Saturday when we went out, Deana put him to bed well she was stupid enough to let Deana put him to bed no wait a minute of course he got all upset so she had to then mess about and try and get him to sleep, which apparently she did Yeah. but he must of been all worked up and since then I've had a right struggle, most nights Yeah. I've had to go back up in to him, yeah, but I don't know what happened last night, I don't know whether he was not quite tired enough, erm, he must of got up as soon as I put him down and started sort of moaning then I went into the girls and I sorted them out he started screaming he did, so I had to go to him in and lay him down and making him lay down Yeah. and he was starting sobbing and he got that upset, in the end He started screaming. you know real, I've never heard him do that before. Aye, they can do that sobbing. No. So erm, anyway I went back in to him, I kept going up and down, I left him for a while, but he doesn't normally cry like that No. so er Ee, ee. eventually I went up and I tried to get him to go down to sleep again, and he was shutting his eyes and on his dummy, but he was If they get that worked up, they can't calm down can they? No No. so I thought I couldn't, I couldn't let him go to No. sleep while he was like that so I picked him up and took him back downstairs again, He knows he's doing this thing. Is it, do you think it might be as well that it's a bit lighter Jane, cos I was reading a smashing tip Oh yeah. in one of me magazines to blacken your curtains out, cos I thought I'm gonna do that on Joanne's Yeah I don't you know she moans, somebody suggested if you've got a curtain and you've got like you, a liner behind it Yeah. to fasten a black bin bag Oh yeah, yeah. between the curtain and the liner Yeah I put a over his and it completely blacks over it was dark when it was dark but no, you know it does start getting lighter and you're gonna have problems then, you might try that cos you could, you've got liners on them curtains haven't ya? Yeah. Open up er, er a, a bin liner and pin it in between the two In between the two. Oh that's a good idea. so it's completely black. Blacks it out. Blacks it out. It is a good idea. Yeah. I didn't, it was so cold yesterday, we'd been out in the morning and I decided to put him in his cot, on the odd occasion I do, do, he's gone to sleep without any problems Mm. but yesterday morn he was, yesterday morning he started crying didn't he, I didn't leave him for any length of time No. I brought him downstairs give him his dinner and then I put him to sleep in his pram in the front room, but I think that'd also er Yeah, yeah. Upset him. so I just hope, it's so annoying though, you'd just give him a cuddle, lay him down and that was it, that was all I know, so I mean the thing is that we've always said haven't ya as long as you can sort of get 'em down Mm. Yeah to go to sleep so you can have a at least you've got some free time. on your own, you can cope with waking up in the night can't ya? Ten o'clock before I put him upstairs. Yeah. Cos you lose your patience. What was wrong with ya? Oh she's so calm. No I'm not too bad really. I lost me paddy with Stacey I must admit, cos he's by then screaming, I did get a bit cross last night Yeah. cos he's throwing a wobbly at the cot, he's thrown all his dummies out and Stacey comes out the door, I just wanted to leave him cos he's just, before he was ready and that No. I was up there, stood on the landing where he couldn't hear me and couldn't see me I was No. sort of just waiting to see what he was gonna do and then Stacey comes out, I can't sleep and I said get back in that bloody bedroom oh dear What was that? over the road with Sam? Er his mother, you know the one that works in Woolworths? Yeah, yeah. They've had him from the Wednesday, was it the Wed er, no from the Saturday to the Wednesday cos she was working and they took him on to seaside somewhere and when come home, he's having stitches in his head where he'd fell, he hit it on the stone or summat and I said oh did he enjoy it apart from that, she said he was a swine last night, he was screaming and hitting me and she called her husband down from work, she couldn't control him, said she should of smacked his arse and put him in the cot. Mind you I've heard them shouting at him. Oh it's awful. How old is he? He was two last Christmas, he's lovely an'all, but you see it doesn't take much to get out of a routine. It does come nice after Christmas, Christmas it got him all out of plonk Yeah. cos you know he was that shattered he was falling asleep downstairs before I put him in his cot, so it was a case then of putting him to sleep in his cot Mm. and even in the middle of the night on the odd occasion that he sort of disturbed a bit, I just used to shout to him Yeah. lay down and go back to sleep and, sometimes he would. Yeah. Oh, she's very lucky that a child of that age had gone, I mean she don't see his, his nana that much No. really, to have him from Mm. er what was it? Yeah the Saturday to the Wednesday Aye. d'ya know she's still at Woolworths? I told ya Mm. it was that bit of Ta. Yeah. is she there? Yeah. Not seen her since Ta. Yeah. I mean cos there's time when to stay open late weren't it? And she didn't want to do it. And she said I'm, I'm I'm not staying she said, I think it was New Year's Eve, she said I'm walking out so I might have no job, so I've not seen her since, so Madge said she's still there, that's in Altrincham int it? Mm yeah that's how she's just but he keeps going up to the gnomes and saying hello is that no he come home the other night and the, we, no the other day Sam he tipped all the bloody soil out of the earth and done something else, he said he's a naughty boy and she's said to Sam he wants a smacking he said I'm not smacking him Oh well he wouldn't do that. He wouldn't do that would he? She should tell him. and he's never got a nappy on him, he's like this it's swinging all the time he's looking at what is it, you doing a Josh? Mike came down yesterday morning, mind you he had been on his own quite a lot, a lot of time yesterday for the day Josh, cos I went to Altrincham with me mum at half nine and it, I'd taken him out for a walk to make sure he'd had his walk and Mike didn't get up till gone half two and when he come down he'd cut a report of Lisa's on the floor Oh. they call it achievement you know they call it record of achievement Oh God, yeah. but fortunately I put it in a folder so the folder was destroyed But the but the thing that he was was alright actually caught with, I think he was just starting on that when Mike come down, er but, he got it out this magazine rack because it was at the back of there I put it, cos it's this year's the others I've got upstairs in a drawer And he ferreted it out. he ferreted it out, but I, you know I said to Mike well if er, if he's only chewing the paper Yeah. I mean he could start on the Of course he could, he's not bad really. Yeah, I found, only because I went out one night, and, it was when Mike was still next door and what I'd done I'd locked him in the back room and he said he was howling Oh. he doesn't, he doesn't like being cooped up In one room. so if I leave the doors open Oh he's so good. he can wander about you see and jumps up on the furniture and looks through Careful. the window and what have you, you know? Yeah good lad. You're a good lad aren't ya? You see that's where I really Aren't you? Aren't you? I've got that burglar alarm over there, but I don't think I'd ever be able to use it You mean with the dog being loose You want your socks on? Do you want some more? Ask Chris for some. or is it only to do with doors opening? Well this is what I'll have to, we'll have to find out, I've not really gone into detail about it, I think it might be actually because it's er you, you've got two things When you open the front door on a, on a thing haven't they? And they, if you go to it, I forget how it is, but that's how Jane's is, so Now, if you go through the door you've got so many seconds to get to the box to turn it off. That's right, yeah. Ours the same. Yeah, and there's a panic button at the front door and there's a panic button upstairs What is it? Ah good lad, good lad. Come on Josh. That was Diet Vimto. Oh I didn't like the taste of that. Didn't ya? Oh I like it No. and Lisa, I get it for Lisa she likes it. It seems to have a bit of a different taste. Where is it? Is it up there?, in your bag up there I think Marg? Did you put it in the bag? Oh, yeah I think I did. You put it over there. no I put it back up there. Josh has Josh licked it? what was it like? He needs to be thinner, he's like a bloody dustbin ain't he? Your mum said he was eating enough I give him two barm cakes and we had one each and before we'd finished, started our second half of our one, he'd ate the two, give him a custard and he'd ate it in two mouthfuls, she said did you take So did you enjoy that custard? No wonder he don't get indigestion Two int it? he's such a gulper. Oh. See you next week Chris. Okey-doke ma. See you next week now. right cos I'll see you again then Margaret tarrah Jane take care. bye bye Michael Say bye bye, say bye bye. bye. Well wave bye bye then. He's too busy licking his lips. Where'd you get them braces from? Tarrah Tarrah. tarrah Bill They're lovely aren't they? Mm, they'll last him for a long, long time. Yeah. Oh, where you going, mm? To work? Did you know yes, you were saying I just hope that I've plugged it in properly. Oh it's going great guns that I've got Len coming I'll take it home well and you can have, well there'll be nowt bloody said at our house after five o'clock so you don't I've got Len coming round at half past twelve you'd just gone, it's a wonder you didn't see her coming round the bloody corner. Was this Wednesday? Wednesday, I'd got Michael outside in the pushchair, coat on and I think I'd just come down from the loo and I saw the car pull up I quickly ran and got me coat on oh I, I'll come with you she said, so she come shopping with me. Who was this? Er, erm This is a friend she's a d she's a nice girl isn't she Jane? She is a nice girl But she's got problems a bit like Pat erm what I used to have with Betty Oh. you know one of those Yeah. that you want to really help them and you feel dead sorry for them Yeah. but no matter what you say you still end up doing what they want Yeah. and whatever. She's very weak, I think that's what it is Yeah. she knows what she wants to do and what she should do, but she just can't Nah. seem to be able to do it. Nah. Still the same now. Is she? Shame. other day when she locked herself out no matter what what you suggested how she got in that, oh no you can't have that, well she kept coming and she kept aren't I a silly bitch, aren't I silly bitch Bill, and he looked she was taking the mickey out and he said well what, what's your daughter's name, she said Jane, as if he was puddled he said no what's that name? Anyway she, some bugger, you know Sue? That er that's got the greengrocers, she got to know her daughter's phone number and phoned round for her Ta. well it didn't matter what you suggested yes, that's what the lads were no wonder it was, me dad was trying to get her into the house and everything and she said oh well so and so's got me key well I said I'm not bloody phoning er their Nora He rang. He rang? Er are you talking about Nora? Well this girl she's got two children at and Nora's got in with her, but her husband is an Iranian so she goes over to Iran every now and again, she's got a key, I said I'm not phoning to bloody Iran for you Nora. She's got a sister in Urmston, that's about A daughter. a daughter, what's er, what's her number the daughter, oh I don't know her number I said well what's her name it'll be in the book, she said it's Jane It's Jane I said er, it got that bad that I thought she was taking the piss out of me. Yeah, did she get in in the end? You could, could the window tre the cleaner get through that window he said yes, but she'll have to, he'll have to force it, she said oh I don't want it forcing, no, somebody at the shop in the greengrocers rooted through the phone book, eventually got her daughter's phone number in Urmston, phoned for her and her daughter come down Urmston's not in our book you see. No. No it's not no. No. I said I'll go round the back and I said I can get in through that window for ya, I said well I'll have to force it, what d'ya mean force it? I said I'll have to prise it open oh no, no No, no, no no. I said well do you know anybody with a good ? Oh blimey. Do you know Nora, Nora ? No I don't think In er Ashdon? No. Mind she's very lonely, she's on her own you know and she'll talk to anybody Mm. you can guarantee it she goes to shops about eleven o'clock, she don't come back till one because she's been talking on shops, that's her routine you know? Yeah. Very lonely, it's a shame, very, very good-natured as well Well where does she live, in Ashdon village? No, up our road Oh. er third one from the top gingery er talks a lot you know, gingery hair, nice girl, but as I say er funny girl Mm my John was in Sale on Saturday when he ran into John he was telling him about his Oh I yeah, telling John all about his erm, he had an accident at work or something Well I don't know Jane, I don't really listen to any gossip up that end, you know what I mean? Yeah. But he's er, got a nice little girl Has he? Yeah fortunately He's still there then John ? Oh aye Sandra yeah, he lives in Oh does he? Mm. John er bumped into him on Saturday Oh yeah. and he was showing him his arm, apparently he got erm Yes he did Jane he had an accident. trapped into er a machine Oh. at work, I don't know where he was working Yeah. and pulled him into the machine and made a right mess of his arm. Oh God. Apparently he's had to have plastic surgery on his arm Yeah he showed us. so, yeah, mm. He'll get some compo for that. He's waiting for a claim going through. So what does he do Jane now? He's a taxi driver part-time. I think you mentioned it once about taxi driving Yeah and he, but he works for somebody else full-time, I can't think who he said it was now. Oh Serlison High, I cut through there going to, when I'm going to work. Why they got a little house down there There's loads for sale down there, they're quite nice little houses cos Eileen used to work at Oh give it to down there Nora's brother's got one. Yeah, have I got to buy you a bottle of Vimto? Oh he seems to like it don't he Jane? but er Eileen she's got four of them, you know, Margaret was living with that lad for ten years weren't she? I know. They got married and they've been together and apart for, ever since they've got bloody married Yeah. then there's Ellen, don't how the bloody hell she lives so or what have you There's only Anthony and he seems pretty normal, yeah. He's stuck with that girl I say cos I mean she's a lot older than he is, but they're stuck together yeah, cos Carol must be near my age Blimey. Yeah. Every one of them she's had something with ain't she? Mm, I suppose, John, how many bloody wives has he since I don't know how many kids has he had by each one? I say he's had half a dozen kids to each girl he's been Yeah. going out ain't he? Mm and just think Jane if you'd of stayed with him you'd have your hands full. Right, and I don't think he's even nice I don't. Oh dear, must of said that about him Nosey hole do you like that Diet Vimto then Michael? Hiya He must have something though because I mean there's another Aye, very young int she? Josh for younger girls, they must think it keeps them young. Yeah, but he he doesn't acknowledge those children to Ellen, don't he, don't even acknowledge 'em, he's walked past them in our road and never acknowledged them. How can you do that to your own kids? Yeah and our Lisa's bloody bad as well. Is she? You know they make me laugh with Eileen they want to think back when she, how she cheated on John her Did she? Oh Christ she was the talk of the bl that was bloody disgusting that, oh aye. Mm. Folk they forget that, you know what I mean? Mm, and she's got the audacity to have a go at other people. Mm. I remember she had a go at me once, I was leading Margaret astray according to Eileen Oh aye oh Christ, my oh Margaret had Eileen like that Jane with what Margaret mother, she daren't open her mouth to er Margaret because Margaret had copped her Had she? Oh aye. How long ago? How old was she? Oh so long before John and I, but er, oh no they all had her under the thumb. Michael stop it. He was such a nice bloke John was. Oh he was a lovely man I think John knew you know, I mean look at Derek she still talks to him Mm I think you're in his place Michael. and yet you know that night Chris, and on that bloody Wednesday night knew what was going on, every bugger knew but Margaret . Mm. Josh don't be a mardy I'd love to be a fly on the wall about Wednesday night. is it still going? Ooh, every bugger's business is discussed. Does Margaret still go? Yeah. Does she? Want to know how, what's going on in our road ask Margaret Ask Margaret. she knows more what's going on than I do Oh dear. I couldn't be that bloody interested though could you? watch out your brother's not up there Jane. Mm. Where is he? Careful Michael Eh give us a kiss, oh He gives bootiful kisses don't you then lad? Oh you sloppy hap'orth. Oh eh Josh you got mm, what's Josh doing? Eh between you and me, Alan isn't with her according to Margaret. Oh so don't say anything. No. She keeps trying to girlfriend, Anthony's girlfriend, but I won't He's here with Michael. they're both on window ledge Come here and have a look. Ooh, oh what you looking at? They're both looking through the window , aren't ya? Come on in then, come on, have you drunk that drink all again? That's two big cupfuls you've drank, good lad good lad, he's drank another cupful of that Jane Oh blimey, you have got a spare nappy here somewhere haven't you? Or you do have Er, just as well I did have, yeah, God knows where anything is now what, what you have to do with that now eh Jane do you know what? Mike rang the solicitor up yesterday and he said that he was sending out the contracts to us Yes. that he just received them like, about half an hour before Mike rang up, so he said I've got to get me secretary to type them out and then we, I'll send them to you and we've got to sign 'em, then what happens from there? Once you've signed the contracts? Yeah. You've got to have a witness, haven't you, sign it in front of somebody? Is that the one, no? I don't think Send it back and it should be pretty soon after that isn't it? Well he said Mike must have said, what has been holding it up if I, we were under the impression that when she left London, she was finished with her property Yeah. cos it was put in the hands of Black Horse by Miss That's right. and they were dealing with it Yeah. well seemingly it must be as simple as that No. so she's been dealing with her Manchester solicitors and a London solicitor Mm. so this is what's been holding everything up. Yeah. So Mike must, said to him well, the thing is well we wanted to really get in before Easter Mm. so he said you don't have to move on a Friday cos Mike said well do we have to move Friday? So he said oh no you can choose any day of the week. That's right, yeah. I suppose it's mutual agreement? Yeah. I mean we'll move any day, but it's whether Miss will you see Yeah, the only reason most people choose a Friday is because they get you over the weekend They get you over the weekend yeah, so erm, we'll just have to see what happens and have, just have the contracts out. Yeah, it should be a week then, shouldn't it? Hopefully, er what did you say five working days? It's normally five working days, yeah. Mm, mm, you see, cos even if we sort of made it for like the middle of next week, er, no not next week, the week after Mm. would bring us like the Wednesday, that would be my birthday actually the Wednesday Mm. but it'll make it Easter weekend Yeah. we'll, we wouldn't mind, I wouldn't mind doing that No. because it'd give Mike an extra few days anyway, could actually have Get settled. the Wednesday off and all the following week Mm. which would give him a good break really to get a few things done. Yeah. Well it'll all be I'm not doing any, I'm, I'm, all this bloody panicking about getting a flaming gas fire sorted out and getting a carpet done, I'm not, not bothering, we'll just have to rough it for a while. Let 'em rough it for a week. Mm, we'll rough it for a while, because I know the downers, the only thing that Mike wants to do is put the fence and the gate up the side Mm. which Don said we could do Yeah. to sort the dog out really Mm. but everything else we can sort, getting there, it's not as if we're gonna need a bloody fire is it Jane? Not really. I mean do you find you, you use your fire more? We have been doing over the past few nights Have ya? because I've been turning the heating, it's the Yeah. I don't know, from tea time it seems to warm up the house Mm. and it's boiling hot Yeah. from sort of eight o'clock so I could Then it cools off Yeah. don't it? So I just put it on just to tick Yeah. the room over really but I mean if you can keep your heating on for that little bit of length of time Mm, that's what I'll do I don't think we'll use the fire that much, I mean we, I, did I put it on? No I didn't put it on last night, but I did leave me heating on, it clicks off at nine o'clock, but the house was warm Yeah. and we went to bed anyway Yeah. just gone ten. That's what, I mean we used to turn ours off of about nine, half nine and like you say it just used to tick Mm. over till about eleven, you could just feel it cooling down Yeah. but, because I've been knocking it off that bit earlier Yeah. sort of five minutes And how have you fi I think we're gonna end up like with a fire like yours to be honest, because we don't want to alter that fireplace if we can help it No, it's ever so nice. because we do like it Yeah. and we thought well one night, I mean it's a bloody big radiator in that room Mm. which I think would be enough You wouldn't you'd probably find that you would use it half a dozen times through the year. Yeah, yeah. No I won't get rid of mine. Have you sort of not, I suppose you haven't found out money- wise what it's costing ya? No, not really I should imagine it's not, I don't know you see, we don't, we'd of had the heating on anyway Yeah. so I don't suppose it's cost us any more No. because we've hardly had it on. Mm. Still you You do find it warm don't ya? I do, yeah, Have you got a couple of settings on yours is it a high and a low? Well I've just got high and low that's all. But I mean it'll give you er a wattage er, whatever it is Yeah it pumps out anyway? well I suppose so, I don't know what we've got. The yeah, because as I say something like what Jane's got would fit in that fireplace, just right Mm. Mm. which like I say saw one up at erm I told you that fireplace shop on the corner, mind you I think we'll get Edwards in, he had some in about a hundred and sixty quid or so You should start looking round. erm I mean really ideally Mike would like one of those that actually fits perfectly Yeah. in, in the fireplace I know what you mean. and it's got a back to it Mm. and it sort of throws the heat out into the room. Yeah, yeah. Well I could, it could, it wouldn't justify it. But Chris I can't see them I can't see them making a fire like that that your heat's gonna go all up the chimney, no way. No, but what I'm saying is Josh come on if there wasn't come on Josh, Josh if there wasn't a good amount of radiator in that room Josh it would justify having a fire like that Come on Yeah, yeah. but because it's got such a good Yeah. Radiator. you know cos I told you Mike actually fancies one of these that actually fits right in the fireplace I know what you mean next door and there's a backing to it and it pumps it out into the room, they're dead hot Yeah. but I don't think this room needs it Jane. No. Mm. I think it'll be a waste, and I don't want to go to the expense of Well they are bloody expensive. because It slipped I think the fires are about three hundred quid Mm. but it's not that, you'd have to have a lot of the fireplace ripped up. Mm you would Yeah. it's only a little square. Yeah, we'd have to have the pillars taken off Yeah. and everything like that, so all that would have to be redecorated. Whereas like that one of ours, it'd be ideal wouldn't it? It be it just work right Must have your chimney swept. That's what I want to get that number off you for that as well because I some would suggest anyway I got it somewhere yeah. wouldn't he? I got it somewhere, I'll root it out for ya and I forgot to see Hilda about that Michael shout Mike There's no rush for it. Michael shout louder she's gone on holiday now. you know, some time Yeah. if you think about it. Mike Funny enough I saw her yesterday in a minute or two and she started talking about putting the freezer in the back garden Is it worth my taking a coat on? and that Oh. and it just slipped my mind. Well just any time, we won't be doing nothing until the end of May anyway. Michael, Michael shout Mike As soon as she comes back I promise I'll ask her Mike, shout Mike, Mike But what would you, see Edward said shout Chris when we decided we want something he'll come down and Be careful sort it all out. sort it out shout Chris Hopefully we can get away with that room Jane with just maybe having to emulsion it Yeah. because I mean once you've taken all the pictures down, I think it did need it She's a smoker int she? That's very much. Yeah that'll be your main thing then. Rather than decorate I think we'll just Paint it. er emulsion over it and maybe put a border around the picture frames. This is in the back room? Front room. Mm. Yeah, leave the front room, we'll have to, first week or so we'll have to live in that back room Yeah. until we've got Mike, Michael shout Chris, he does say Chris It's quite an easy one that, int it? say Chris, it's not that he can't though Madge, he just won't No. I've heard him say Deana and Stacey Mm. Yeah. loads of times, he does moan mumma now he does that quite a lot but that is the only thing he says da, oh no Catch this. you'd better not have that had ya? Had enough at the Chris, Mike, Michael, da, da, shout Chris, where's Chris, where's Chris Chris shout Chris Chris, Chris, Chris Ah good boy, come on most people I've talked to their little lads have been two before they started talking, seems to be very slow Yeah, boys are a bit like that mind he walked pretty quick didn't he, he can't He's done everything very early really. Yeah. Thing is he understands everything you tell him Madge Oh aye. I mean me friend come and picked up her two girls and her little lad, he's thirteen months, leave it, oh his dummy, erm, good boy, and his slipper come off his shoe, he only tried, the little'un to ram this slipper on, he understands everything you tell him Yeah. telly off, telly on, give him a book and he'll put it on top of the telly, goes to the He did to Margaret, she said where's me umbrella? He went and brought it back in. Yeah, he does he understands everything Mm. but he just won't say it, not a thing Oh you going bo-bos? You going bo-bos? Saying that to him last night, go back upstairs in your cot Oh it's terrible int it? Dead oh our Linda was the one, you'd get her settled down and you know what it, if you as much as turned the light switch off She'd wake up. Oh she was terrible. He's alright like that, last night, once he went to sleep I sort of like staying around in his room for a couple of minutes, but I, went and opened you know, sort, sorted the curtains out and Mm. once he's asleep that's it Yeah. and I think it's just getting him that way, come on shall we put your our Linda was the most terrible child Really? she never slept and our Edmond used to be worn out It does get you down actually. Oh aye that's why we moved from our house she had me up, had played bloody hell over it, no bugger was getting no sleep Aye. so we went out and bought that house in Maddors Road Oh. that's how she first got that Ee, ee, ee I can remember having when she went in to have our Pam and er I thought on the Wednesday afternoon had a bloody good walk round Tire her out. I was that knacked not her, bright as a button, she still didn't sleep that bloody night, she's a swine, Linda wasn't very old when Pam was born was she? About fifteen months Ra, ra, ra, ra come here fasten you up, chin, chin, chin, chin, chin, chin chimney, come here er, stand up what, oh dear, there, right where's your ha But I'm used to wearing black, oh here he is, he's got his without the trouble Are you going skiing? Are you going skiing? And so she said oh I want to see that, d'ya mind if I come with you cos I don't want to go on me own, so and then we arrived, mum arrived first and, I said you don't mind Naomi coming do you? Mm well if I'd known enough company she said, I'd have been at home with me feet up you know But your mum wanted to see the film did she? Well obviously she didn't really Mm, anyway to me on the way out, oh I really enjoyed that and we were crying our eyes out. so she's glad she went in the end? Mm the last sort of six months Mm that'll be nice won't it? So you perked her up a bit Well so when are you going away? I don't know I've got nothing to wear, you know I mean there's When's the kids going out tonight? Mm, when I've dropped them I won't see them now till Sunday You've dropped them off from, straight from school? Mm, mm and no, I dropped them off this morning, that's it, he's picking them up Oh right he picks them up from school and then Jenny got some clothes at class and everything dropped at erm took the suitcase, gonna leave it at, with Mm nanny's down the road, but Carl was in this morning so I dropped it off to him it's gonna be a long time Mm, is that normally how it is from Fridays? No it's normally from Saturday morning till Sunday morning I just think we'll end up going for the day but he said, he's got Gerry coming up from Hull to mind the shop on Saturday, he said oh you're tired and you need a change and a rest he said something like erm Do you think he'll stay over Saturday night? then we'd have to be back for eleven, can't, I don't know what's gonna happen to the dog Oh right, oh can't you take her, oh no you can't really can you? You can't right and you don't know what to do I tried to for the best Well I do know what I want to do, but it's knocked me for six cos I sort of felt really guilty Mm sort of you can't kick them while they're down and Yeah, but you do it, it were a good time though. Mm heard something on the radio, he said, oh will you still love me in a year's time, so I looked That's how I am, horrible to him really it's worse than being married. So when're you gonna tell him, when're you gonna do it take the bull by the horns? Yeah I can still see you in flaming two year's time simply because you're too frightened to say anything to him, to my son. hello you don't give yourself time to wake up before you start moaning Say not her again oh look, he's such a cutey Urgh hello got a bit warm under there I was gonna say he's got rosy cheeks I know, it's alright when the sun's out, but when the sun goes in it's freezing so I've had his plastic Mm he was a little git last night. Well no just screaming at the top of his voice, our Ben had to bring him down in the end and give him a drink and start again, even then I had to stay with him until he went to sleep Ah this all started after last weekend Deana put him to bed didn't she? Instead of letting John's mum do it, consequently he got dead upset so Oh so he was dead annoyed with it, all week I've been struggling to get him to bed he, he was a treat before, just used to take him up, give him a cuddle, say night-night and that was it So why did it disturb him with Deana? Is it just Well I just it's not like an adult? Yeah I suppose so, yeah It seems, it's comforting is it? It's the same routine Yeah, of course you can't sort of cuddle him like that cos he's too heavy, I rock him you know for a, a couple of minutes, not that long, he's taken his braces off as well still do, don't ya? Mm Ah look at them there, I don't know, I don't know what you're gonna do, cos whatever it is you're not doing it, it's just letting time go by aren't ya, treading water if you like. Last night I got really upset, I did in bed and erm he kept saying what's the matter? What's the matter? And you have and everything, yeah Mm but he'd just told me about the housing with the car and everything. Is it, is he, is that right, is somebody coming down to value the house? No, just coming back home to show me the flaming car, and that's what sa I didn't but I feel dead awful really, but I didn't jump up and down I'm not surprised, I'd have done me fruit, if I was going around with somebody that, that say they're gonna put the house on the market for me, want to make a go, a go of the marriage, a new baby, two other kids and then oh, but yet, yet wants to play around in a, you know a little sports car, that nobody but two people can sit in I know I can't that's the weekend only and there's me Well he's got so many debts Lynn it just doesn't seem right he's, he's living in cuckoo land, I mean when are you ever gonna feel secure with somebody like that? Never You can't can ya? Is there any more tea in the pot Jane at all? Yeah there might be Well thanks that was beautiful tea,sort of ready for it I'm not surprised with all that dashing around, he asks such a lot of you Lynn and I can't understand why he's like that when he says he loves you and everything, and he wants I know I don't know why I'm being so bloody docile no I really have and then I don't know he's gonna come a right bloody cropper I keep burning , I bet I didn't, I thought, pardon me, positive mm I popped round, I went in yesterday I'm going to say something and then he's going on about well I've sold me car to pay the mortgage and And then all he tells you is a pack of bloody lies I know if he can lie that bloody easily well he, he said he, he wanted it as a surprise well it's not a surprise for me is it? Yeah, but he knew you wasn't you wasn't keen on the idea anyway didn't he? Well that's right, yeah, cos then he asked me ages ago did I think he was being selfish, I said yes Mm I said, but like you tell me it's your life, mm he's like a Jekyll and Hyde that bloke, I've told you before you wanna be bloody careful how it works out and then he said to me how, how do you feel about your baby now? Not, you know, and I said okay? It's going to be his baby when it's a good baby I know but your baby when anything comes to actually buying for it and er looking after it I would imagine, I can't see him doing all what he says he's gonna do with it Lynn No Oi you, he's playing with your Oh let's have a, is it in there? no right, we'll have another cup of tea and then we'll have that nice cake Right look at you, eating all your crisps look it's going to rain I'm gonna go and bring my pushchair in then before it does, are you taking that with ya? Or just Yeah, I'm going to, I'm just working out I'll be back in a tick mm, mm So you've still got your other have ya that Alice had? Mm, well it's at erm Carl's and Yeah but you could use it like when mind you, you might be pleased with it when it's Mm, I'm damn sure I will, I quite like doing things like that Yeah very but they remember which one I did, I think it was that Mothercare one they get grubby with the things and everything and it was a sunny day and I went outside with me bucket and me felt and me scrubbing brush Yeah and I just, I threw buckets of water on it to rinse it, and it dried because it was really warm and it came up like new Came up like new cos you can have a real good go at the wheels that way outside Yeah, outside, it's like my pram, I mean, I was, Stacey was going in hospital last year to have her adeno adenoids out and Sue was having him and I thought well, he was too big for his carrycot, but take the pram down and he's got nothing to sleep in and er, I put him in it, it been six months since it was do well since he started using it, so I give that a good going over and the pram wheels come up lovely I know you know I get a Brillo Yeah and some Jif on it, but erm, it's not been done since, so when the next good bit of weather, I've got to get the pushchair out and give that a good going over And do that and me pram as well I know, I fancied a big pram, but there you go Well it's, whether you've really got somewhere to put it really that's the top and bottom of it Well there's nowhere to walk to now, is there, you know Well where would you, mind you I suppose like in the olden days you could only get big prams, they just had them in the living room didn't they? Yeah, well it'd just have to go in the hall, but, no, this will be better, carrycot and that,ridiculous prices though Well it is, it's different if you was, if you was starting from scratch I suppose you know, first baby you're inclined to, you want everything new don't you with these new Well I sort of said to him as well about, I said and it's ridiculous, just because I said the bedding had been lo in the loft Mm with the cot and everything he, he sort of er thought it was Well some lofts are lovely aren't they? I mean our loft is a right mess grotty I mean they're all in bin bags Mm they only need washing , I mean I might be wrong, they might have, they might have gone funny, but I doubt it they've not been up there that long really only about two Oh all of my stuff has been up in the loft it's like you say, I mean if they've been double wrapped and everything and you wash them he should put his hand in his pocket really and buy something Of course he should, you ought to just ask him for say a hundred, you know to buy a couple of packs of nappies and some cream and changing mat, a changing bag, you'll want all that won't you? I know a changing bag could cost sixteen Fifteen sixteen pounds and then you've got another six or seven pound for a changing mat you wanna say to him, that you know, can I have er, some money, I want to start getting us a few things together, but you, I mean, what about clothes? I know, he, he said er, he said about, plus when I mentioned the pushchair and the carrycot he said oh well , so I said yeah Yeah I said that development, I said,with the bargain coming up with a He alright? Yeah he's alright there oh I just Ooh, you've made a right mess with them crisps young man, ain't ya? The thing is Lynn you've got to start early Well it's all part of the, of the process of getting ready for it though int it? Yeah where've you got these from? Er the deli, you know in the village Oh they should be nice then you might need a, get a fork to eat it with, you don't mind, you might need a fork because Oh right are these of, what did you have, is that what you had before one of these with the bits of carrot on Yeah, but you might, I can't remember whether you really liked it and I thought oh Oh I did yeah. So it was the deli not that other place, because there's er, a, a little cake shop int there in the village? Near where, next to I know where where the new florist is? Yeah, I know where the erm the delicatessen is, so you got them from there and not the other shop, cos No I've been in is it it's opposite erm, yeah not Parker Radburn what about Lingraves do they erm? No they've gone, it's a florist now Oh really, I only went in there the other day, well the other week about a fortnight ago I know cos I know when, when I got these when I came, about two weeks ago Ah they were in, I know they've been there years You know what's done it, I suppose Parker and Radburn going in there Mm and they just about managed didn't they with the ? cos they sell different sort of Mm, me and John had a, er one from the Spinces the other day very nice What, yeah they're oblong aren't they? Yeah you can have my, would you like my carrot? You can take it off Er will, will Michael like it? No it's marzipan int it? Yeah right, erm thank you very much You like marzipan do you? Mm Yuck, yuck, I like almonds and everything but You just don't like I just don't like marzipan, I think it was something that to do when I was a kid to be honest They do another sort and that's really nice, it's called a nutty Vera and it looks like this but it's a similar texture, but it's a different taste, it's got walnuts on the, bit on the top Oh and what it is, the man that bakes them, it's a that makes his Mm and he's related to Vera Duckworth out of Coronation Street cos it's Oh it's because something like that Oh so he's done one after her, a nutty Vera. I bet that's nice That's what she said anyway with nuts on instead of erm Yeah d'ya know I could drink and drink and drink you know there only you get all the fingers caught, it's like with an ironing board int it? Oh God, yeah It's like looking at another planet to a man that's right what's that? Is that marzipan? That is isn't it? Yes it is, I'll have to dig that Ah and it's everything just to stop you getting at what, well get it then yeah, I've, I don't mind some of it, I've not had a bit of marzipan for I don't mind these erm almond slices, I quite like them, but I think it must be the texture of the marzipan Mm, I love it, they do erm, German erm marzipan bar, chocolate bar Oh aye have you ever made marzipan? No I did it in the sixth form, it's really hard, it takes ages Does it? That's why I would think, it's ground almonds they're expensive That's right, yeah it, and it doesn't taste anything like, I mean this'll be probably be home, nearest to homemade, but that Mm bright yellow stuff it doesn't taste like that at all No it's, sort of very more of Here a subtle taste, you know it need loads of ground almonds Mm just to make a small oh That come off rather easily, would you like my marzipan? Hmm, well leave it there and I'll see how I go, cos I've had one carrot and I, sort of like, I had your carrot and I'm putting mine quite rich though that's the thing, I quite like that bit there cos that's like brown sugar erm It's lovely Carl started me on this, he was into carrot cake for years and Yeah? mm and it's similar to a cake we used to have when he used to love erm when we were engaged he introduced That's another name for it int it apparently Oh is it oh it was the same, but it was taller, and that sort of buttery cream that was all on top and that had nuts and things Mm rather than we had, I told you, at this meal we went to, on Saturday they had erm carrot cake, but that was completely covered in like this cream cheese Mm sounds nice, mm it was gorgeous but Chris was saying that Tescos do one, but they call it passion cake which is the same thing Oh the same, mm like a horse today, drinking Have you got a sore throat or something or just thirsty? I don't know catarrh but er I've been thirsty the last few days I remember we used to just fancy Mm go and buy one and dash in with a cup of tea and he I hoped no one called and no one it's more satisfying when you're desperate for something and you get home Mm and gulp it down You're getting in a mess Michael do it now, have you ever tried, bought, what, you can buy it in a slab can't you, but without the cream on No I've not seen it like can buy it the, just carrot cake no, no, I've only just got onto Oh There, I'm not too keen on the creamy soft piece Mm, I like that You're a mess, mm oh that's not too bad, you know What were ya? One thirty over eighty How much weight have you put on? Well she weighed me with me boots, er everything on and on their scales it was nine stone eight. What are you doing? You're not having it I'll have me mouth round the tap in a minute not quite the same there's that bottle there where did you , is that what you meant the bottle? Over there by the er red basket Oh right can you see it? Yeah That marzipan on its own is filling though int it? Yeah, well I I can't eat any more oh dear Was there enough? Oh God you've only got a little bit No I've just filled up there Oh I know there must be something wrong with me come on in the other room Michael, right, now you've got your dummy Oh Pardon me, hmm, ooh that's better, that's all I do is burp With all that liquid I'm not surprised can you watch him with that tin? You monkey Okay monkey, monkey, moo, yeah just put some water in the sink and we'll go and sit down, I'm not bothered about washing I just don't like it when it's stuck to the plates I know what you mean, it's harder to wash when it's Mm dried on, so you might as well That's it do your sweeping Oh that's it do your sweeping up, is it raining? it's just a bit in the air, but you can tell it's going a bit damp now anyway Mm what will you do, be able to go into the hotel to make your butties into your room and do it, or We shall do them before we go out in the morning Yeah cos it's only that's a good idea. er, it's only er breakfast but I believe they're very good breakfasts Mm. er and you can have as much as you want I believe Oh you can help yourself there. so I said well ha, ha, gonna be cheeky Get your extra bits of bacon and take 'em away I'm, I'm gonna get a packet of freezer bags Yeah, you want to and er, put one, just put one in me handbag in the morning and yeah if I see anything on the table I'll just pop it in a freezer bag yeah, you can have it for your dinner with some, with your barm cakes can't you? Yeah so I thought oh well I'll see what there is Good idea you can have bacon and egg for breakfast and bacon butties for dinner Yeah, well you never know do ya? a good idea Ah, ah, ah, ah, no, no, no Thank you where's your brush? Where's your brush? Here are, there it is. There it is, go and get your brush. Get your brush and brush up for mummy there yeah these places you can get quite a good discount for being Mm for staying there for your dinner Well I, I'd never thought of taking anything like that until she said, cos I, well you never pay, it's all new to me, I haven't done it before and she said oh no she said we take these small tins of stuff with us and er make our sandwiches, cos there's a supermarket I believe not far from there Yeah you can go and get some barm cakes yeah that'll be nice, different Yeah they have different sort of rolls to us as well don't they? Yeah That'll be nice on your travels you ought to see underneath the fridge, he does this in the kitchen and they've all gone under the fridge, when you're at the top shop or any other places where the will you have a look on the cards in the window, I'm looking for a slide, you know, but a smaller one for him for the garden for the summer really, cos that's just about had it that one ? Cos you can only use them up to about four I would think cos other, other than that they get a bit too big for them don't they?he could do with a little slide in the garden he will, Christmas I'd like to get it sorted out a bit for him really before the summer starts It'll be ideal Mm if you can just fasten him in the back it'll be smashing won't it? Well there's the gate, he can only go so far with the gate anyway, so it won't really matter yeah yeah you ought to see all the pegs at the back of me fridge Go and watch daddy bring the tree down? Watch it Michael, it's coming yeah, oh you have got hiccups? He's had them quite a bit these last few days , they seem to come like that don't they? Mm Then he'll go a month probably there we are it's down Oh, fence nearly came with it it'll seem funny won't it to see that tree down? I do think it's lightened this room up though when you think it gone Yeah I mean it's better when you took that one from down there wasn't it? Oh yeah Yeah yeah the only thing about having those others of course you can see through the windows, but there's not a lot you can do about that. John had a word with the bloke across the back there Oh did he? about, you know the garage? Yeah So he said he'd got no objections to John moving it back Oh well mm we'll probably end up doing a bit to the garden this year as opposed to er you know going to, we were gonna go down to Somerset in June weren't we? Mm But that, with things as they are we might as well just hang fire Well, it's no use spending money you haven't got is it? No, well the thing is I mean you're talking of five or six hundred pounds This is it and if you can't replace it I mean we've booked, we've booked through, erm,Au August anyway, we're definitely going in August to Southport and it might be a little bit cheaper for yourself than going all that way, it certainly won't, it certainly won't cost you as much to get there anyway No, well that's it int it?so er if things are reasonable we might just go away for a long weekend or something, go find us a place in Southport for a weekend Yeah but really I mean you need the odd week at home don't you really to sort of do bits to it, you can't work and do it Well I mean I'm not going away this year, but it's not really bothered me an awful lot No no so you can't gone to erm, oh I think I told you didn't I? Yeah Gone to Windsor today that's right and a day Eastbourne tomorrow, now that's a nice little break Mm just, just a few hours like that yeah see some places you see go from Friday to Monday don't they? That's alright, I think that's ideal Yeah I think it's a good time to spend in the garden to be honest, I mean you can't, you can't, it's not really long enough to try and do it at weekends, not if he wants to move that garage back, it'll probably take the best part of the week to sort that out Oh it will yeah, cos you've got to empty it and That's right move your swing haven't ya and yeah everything, yeah and prepare the ground Yeah I don't know whether that swing will end up going to the tip if it comes down, it's a bit rusty int it? Seen better days Just depends if the frame's strong Yeah you know you could always put a bit of paint on it mm to stop the rust, it just depends if it's strong enough to hold them, the frame mm, it's done well though, I mean You might, you might get a little something out of it for Michael Mm, we haven't got a seat on it Oh dear I don't know what happened to that one that granddad made Deana I know is John going to the tip with all this tree? Mm me broke as well Oh God it's alright having two, you never get two for twelve months Oh it's erm, it's not too bad this time of year, you can peg out, the legs come off it, you know that brown one that you bought me? Yeah I mean I've had it since, I remember getting, washing me nappies and putting them on there Oh I bought that one when Deana was a baby Yeah, it was before Deana was born was it before Deana was born? Yeah cos I remember, I was doing hang all me nappies out before she was born, so I washed them all and put them on Did ya? Yeah, so that was er,eleven years ago aren't ya? Yeah And it's been used constantly, so it's not done bad, it's the way, the leg's been wiggly for a while, it just broke off the other day, so, I don't know whether John can mend it, he couldn't seem to think he can No they're not er, I've got one that's got a rivet come out Mm on this side, you know where the little piece that, that bend, that you uncatch it to fold it up I know what you mean yeah the rivet's come out Yeah and that, I find that very awkward, I've got a rubber band round it at the moment yeah but you see that only lasts so long they, they perish yeah, done well, I might re come winter I'll probably replace it, I won't bother now it's not worth it with summer says she having a nice summer Yes, well, we're bound to have something aren't we? Well I should think so We're bound to have something We live in hope don't we? Yeah What are you doing? Mind you don't your tongue with that I tell you what they had in er Woolies market as well, I don't know whether you've seen them and I don't, I've not got you know an old Argos catalogue to compare prices, cos they've not got it in the summer one, but they have them in the winter ones, it's like a, a tool box, but it's on wheels and you make it up, you, you know all the screws and the wheels come out and you're not, it's all plastic, I think it must be from age three, because of the little bits, and it's like erm, I've seen it somewhere, where I've been, it has little figures sat in this erm, what would you, it's like erm, a bit like a truck, yeah, and it's got the, the figures in it I haven't I haven't actually seen one, but I once saw a lady on the bus with one if it, on the bus you can see it's quite a big thing isn't it? Yeah, yes Yeah on the box you can see it made up and then with all the bits and pieces separate Mm and I think it was something like, say twenty pound, it was on the market, but I have a feeling it was something like thirty odd Good boy, good boy, thank you, no we're not taking them out Ooh cheeky, you are cheeks all over your face I don't think you should be chewing that one Michael cos if you, if you open it up it'll stick on your tongue int it? Yes you think I can't see you just cos you're behind me. Trying to stick it onto your jumper You'd have laughed at him yesterday with his boo cos even John, you know, I mean, he heard him it was Yes as clear as anything, boo he says Yeah and boo again and then that was it, he co he wouldn't do it again It'll perhaps come all at once Yeah, he's, he's into ev oh it must've been about six or eight weeks ago he started saying a couple of things and I thought oh he's coming now, but it stopped I think I got excited when he started saying dark, but that's as far as it got, int it? Dark, is it dark? Dark. Is it dark not dark No he says it's not dark yet not dark not dark You're not fooling me Not fooling me do you mind mind you he does say mama now when he's moaning, it's definitely mama, he says now, if he wants something, mama, er, er, mama your skin Ow that's sharp , put it in there now please, put it in for mummy Yes, he knows it's funny yes, in there, in there, put it away Mine, mine That way they're saving money on a night out, they're gonna save on er actual depot hours, where it's like taking us sort of like ten and eleven hours, it's only gonna take them eight, nine to do that cos they're there, they're on top of the job. Mm, either way though, I mean the thing is if they do, you, you would be in for a little bit of something, if you hung it out till be, to being redundant Yeah, but I mean it's like, it's but having said that if ifs were ands, and ands were swings Yeah, then you I know, but John I mean you'd be up for a good couple of grand if you did stick it out. I don't know. You would Two grand's not everything Jane, you know that and I know that what, what I propose to do anyway if it's agreeable to you Hand it in and see what happens. give 'em a go, let's go and sit and listen to what the bloke says Mm and let him sit and listen to me mm he might turn round and say I'm sorry Mr you're not suitable, alright, I've not lost nothing mm you just had, you've just had a bloody, you've had a off work The thing is I mean if you turn round and just say to them well they're messing about with all the hours we've put it down to the erm Recession. recession, but it's just the, I think it's just a bloody good excuse to streamline a company that's Oh it is you know I mean they, they do don't they, they overstaff and then they've got to cut back. Look at look at Llandudno Mm. one of the factories, they're shutting it Yeah but and where're they moving it? It's going yeah, but when to Creda. when was it built all them factories it was built in the seventies when the boom was in I agree, I agree, yes I agree, that factory's old, it's out of date, it wants a lot of modifying so now there's so they've got it's just a good excuse to streamline yes all the staff. yeah, you see Creda now at are already making some of the washer driers, that Llandudno used to make. Mm, what gets me is how Creda they're gonna, they're, they're coming up in the pink and They've got job security Jane But why haven't Hotpoint, the original Hotpoint drivers, I mean Hotpoint is the bigger firm Yeah, but having saying that Hotpoint take over Creda Yeah where are all Hotpoint's drivers? it's like, yeah but it's like, it's like any big conglomeration int it, if, if I was to buy you out as a company you're gonna You'd have to keep me sweet you're, you're gonna say to him well there's conditions attached to this Mm I've, I've, those lads have served me well mm I want them looking after, and cou and you're gonna, I'm gonna say to you you're gonna go to your ordinary man I'm gonna say to you yeah, alright, I'm, I thank you you're thinking long-term, yeah I can do this and then when it, a gentleman's agreement and then it comes to paper, and when that paper's signed you're stuck with it Yeah and I tell you what, this is, this is what I think's happened Probably has, yeah. being truthful do you know what I think'll go next? What? Manchester? the double holiday pay Yeah I was thinking that actually and the profit sharing well the thing is they've I gone down anyway on the basic rate d'ya know they've, well this is it, the profit sharing and the holiday pay as you say they've yeah d'ya know the profit sharing's up to thirty one percent, thirty one hours up to now and there's another one, another one to go in yet Is that good or bad? I mean I don't know very much about It's better than what we had at Christmas How come? How come? I don't know, but they tell us that they're not flogging anything Mm, just a good excuse int it? so who's, who's who's telling porkies here? That is it John that's it thing I, I mean the thing that I can't understand you've, you've always been You know I've never, I've never batted an eyelid have I? No you've always done what they said alright everybody has I've always, I might've had a little moan, but I've always to myself Yeah, but everybody does, yeah but everybody has a, in your job John everybody's entitled to a bit of a moan I've never done it in the office, I've always gone, I've always probably gone in the canteen or in the of in the, in the wagon thing Mm. bleeding hell You don't have any time off and yet I'm being nailed mm and look what he said on Friday, I wanted on main lines he said, but you're not one of them and you're not getting a new motor Is that what he said to you you're Yeah not getting a new motor? that's what he turned round and told me. Did you ask him why? Well what can I say to him Jane, it's his property, he put, he gives the motors to who he wants, he's, he's the transport manager, I can't argue with him. I know, it's not fair though is it? I'm cutting these steaks in half John, cos we've got one fatty one and one that's alright. So I mean, if Jane, if it's such a good job why are all these people leaving? Oh Eh? Think of it like that Yeah I know why are these higher, you know Nick who used to be in Manchester? Doing the, the mail order Mm I saw him er he went didn't he? He went to Grangewell he's running Grange now he said d'ya know something For Hotpoint? Yeah, he said it's the best move I ever made he said getting out of here Manchester? yeah, he said it's the best move I ev he said I don't, the lads don't give me any trouble he says I'm fair with them and they're fair with me Mm and I told him about the, him taking the wagon off me, he said that's bloody stupid that cos Nick used to do my run, work it out for me mm he knew, if he, if he treated me right, I treated him right I'm telling ya, I've just had it up to there honest I told Dave this morning, he says well he says I can't, he, you're not losing anything, going and sitting and listening to the man No he said, he actually said, if it was m if I was in your position I'd go and have a listen mm see what the man's got to offer, it might be more but there again it might be less, but having saying that, it might be a lesser basic, but higher return If they can guarantee the overtime is it, who knows mm thing is, I mean you're like that aren't ya? I mean if you stick it out with Hotpoint and hope that the hours come back, if the hours come back you're gonna be earning a lot more money aren't ya? Yeah but you see if it's This is it I know ifs and ands I know I mean look at Colin Jane, he got it made at, at mm take your bed there, now I know that mm take your bed there, money in abundance, even in this recession, well yeah the work's there, no problem, he just got a big new contract for some oh not Federal, give me another big haulage contractor, oh I can't think, T N T T N T? you know T N T, Taylors Nightly Trunk Is that what it is? Yeah, it's either Taylors Nightly Trunk or Turners Nightly Trunk I'm not sure, seventy new trailers ten grand a piece Why did Colin leave? I don't think he wanted the er, I don't think he could hack the way Cartwrights work On the trailers? Well You, he's back to like labouring again weren't he really? Cartwrights are very funny people Int he trained up as a welder now? He's not a fully fledged welder Have you he's, he's welding yeah, but but they trained him didn't they? Yeah That other firm. but he's not So what was he wel was he welding at Cartwrights? He was making er legs for the Mm what they do, they're like a leg and and you have to weld them in no, this leg it's, it folds under Oh and what it is the box is stood there and then you back the motor under it and then you drop it onto the body and it folds Why didn't he like it? He said it was repetitive Boring? Yeah But the money was there This is it, take your bed there, Saturdays and Sundays and as many nights as you want now personally me, I'd have stuck that Yeah, for the money for the easy job, you set your stall out, you make a jig to sort it all out, you can slide it in, zip, zip, zip, done you could probably say what, three an hour out, if you're lucky, two and a half, three an hour under there now I could put up with that, but obviously Colin couldn't, but having saying that I feel, I, I think I learnt a lot from being bonus there Mm being on piecework there Was there, was it piecework then? Yeah to a degree, but not, not that bad if you know what I mean Let me go and see where Michael is, I've seemed to have lost him, he's very quiet Well, I tell you what we can have our tea out here I'm glad I had a word with Steve though Deana, do you think you could watch Michael please? Er, I'm gonna take the telly up there later on Yes and cut that board out alright? that's alright, I'm not bothered, do you know I'll put the I'll put the, the chair, and put the telly back while I'm cutting it You know that film I taped last night with John Travolta? Oh aye It's, it's a comedy and it don't look half bad I just watched, I just watched about Come here you ten minutes of it Oh No we'll get there eventually, one day John I suppose I feel rotten though, I do honest cos I know what I know I know we want so much and we just can't do it, it's frustrating John, I mean I feel as though I'm failing you though somehow Oh that's stupid though int it? Bo It's not your bloody fault I know it isn't, but that's the way I feel I don't know I , right let's get this dished up I'll go and get me saw and everything out while it's still light Well, you're gonna have your dinner now. Yeah I know, I'm only gonna get it out Well go on then. while it's light then I can lock the garage up Right well you'd better I will What have you got? No Michael put it back, there's a good boy, come on, put it back Deana Who me? sort Michael out please Michael no, Deana Michael come on please John I'll sort them out after It's a bit tough this steak, I think I made a mistake Vinegar, have you got some vinegar kid? Ooh I didn't put it on, I didn't cook it on a high enough light silly me not quite like the one you had last week I think you'll be er, no I'm not gonna say anything, no, I'll keep me gob shut. What sort of erm, what you putting round the sides of this wood? Ah I want a nice curved edge so it's kiddie proof. well I've just got ordinary straight flat timber at the moment Can you not get that nice edging that's got a bit of a pattern on it? I was going to it actually Oh. that's what I said to ya and you agreed with me, that's why I got it it's inch and half thick er wide, by half inch thick, it's under there. Can't you get this beading that's got a pattern in it? You can, but it doesn't really take Why? erm, doesn't like being varnished. Oh if you pull it, do you want any more? Cos there's some in the No that'll do Pull it upside down Shut up, that will, that will do woman, enough to the bottom Mm. You didn't give your mum any money to get that C D did you that I was after? What C D that might be? That one about Cher. Which one? That Cher's C D I was after. Yeah which one? There's only one in the top ten at the moment Oh I dunno, I've been looking at a few, not that probably, not in the top ten No, but it's in the top thirty There's Heart of Stone No, it's just called Cher there's another one the one I was after is just called Cher You said to me that you wouldn't mind whatever one you got of Cher cos you like her music. Yeah, but the one that I, it's got all her latest stuff on, is just called Cher that's the one I was after, but I don't want it now, I told ya It's a bit bloody late Oh you've not bought it have you? Told you not to John it's a lot of money. Shut up Which one did you get? Heart of Stone I've only ever seen one and the one that, the recent one is called just Cher and that's got all the last, the last few top ten hits on it. Can't you change it? listen to it first and see what you think. No I don't want to. Oh I'm sorry, but there was only that one which is all, it's got her latest stuff on it, I'm not really keen on anything else, it's got those last, you know the sort of her last few records of it, on it I should say I didn't know there was any others around, when I told you I wanted the Cher one, it was the one that was out now not the old ones. This one's out now . No, what I mean is er the new one sort of thing, the new Cher, it's in the top thirty, it was about number three a month about a month or so ago I didn't know there was anything else Well have this one and see what else develops listen to it, you might like it. Oh it's alright I'll change it John. Oh Yeah, but what did I tell ya? I told you not to bother Oh Jane for Christ sake stop it Yeah, but I did stop it . I told you what I wanted Pissing me off now you. It's no use getting in a huff about it there's erm Don't bother Jane don't bother Ah it's your favourite word that don't bother. there's no point in going on about it now is there? I said not to spend any money, I said just get a little box of chocolates, that was all, finish. Shut up and since when did you ever listen to me? It's not that I was worried about, it was just the money, it's a lot of money for something that, was an idea a couple of months ago. You really know how to cheer people up don't ya? I'm sorry I told ya and not only that I bought that camera the other week didn't I? What was Sandy saying to ya? What about? I don't know I wasn't there, you was talking to Sandy over the fence. She was asking what Steve had come up with job wise she said if ever I wanted a C V writing Graham'd do it for me Good idea won't be a bad idea mm, what I thought was the tough steak has turned out to be the, the one that's not I cut the steaks about a bit, one was a bit fattier than the other the one that I had I thought would be dead tough, is tender it's int it?they look more like a sirloin steak to me than a rump, even though it went under the name of rump it looked like you can only tell the shape of it can't, oh God D'ya want me to go? No, I put Who was that? Jane What she want? I don't know if you remember but ages ago, round about October time she borrowed some stuff for the Brownies, for erm, for Sian, Sian was going camping and she hadn't got shorts or anything, so she borrowed it off me, I was thinking of Stacey starting, I wanted the t I'm not bothered about the shorts, but I want the T-shirt and I'm just gonna get Stacey the culottes and she can wear her shorts and the cardigan with it buy, when she first starts and then we could, Deana's moving up to Guides this, so she can have that sweatshirt of er, I mean they're nine pound Mm. it's no good buying another one, she's not gonna need it in the summer is she? I've cooked these steaks too long, trying to get them brown. Will you do me a favour and keep the receipt and everything for that C D and the bag that it's in? Sandy must be having company, pulled the blind down I think that's why they've been good about the parking this week, cos I mean Irene's pulled her car, we saw Irene pull her car in was you here when she I saw her get in it, it must of been teatime yesterday No. she got in it, pulled it forward and put it in. Perhaps she's got the message. Hmm, I doubt it somehow and then Derek put his in and then Paul parked up where Eileen was Paul was waiting to get out So well Paul come out, I was talking to Steven and he said I come home last night and he said I couldn't park me bloody car up cos there were cars everywhere, and they were all theirs. Who said that, Paul? Mm. I didn't think he parked here last night. Well he was when I come home from work. What last night? Oh They were all theirs. was it? Yeah. Was that blue Escort there, the one that parked behind us? I've not seen him No, I was gonna say mm won't do him any harm getting a bit of a taste of his own medicine. Hmm I personally think he's seen the light about it. About time. We went and took Josh out didn't we? Give him a bit of a walk. You've been for a walk eh? Mm, we went in that, we went and got me barm cakes and a bit, a few veg and that, went, oh I bought Li Joanne a little set of er instead of an Easter egg, it's quite nice, I got it from that shop, you know erm next to Kingston and Hutch Oh yeah? er, what's it called er? Oh I call it the posh shop. Yeah, it's just like a select second shop in't it? Really, but er Yeah, but a hundred times dearer. but I mean some, yeah, but I mean the stuff is cheaper compared to what you pay to other shop What sort of it's nice it's just like, it's a sleeveless top, white, they had it in like lilac, jade and navy, erm and it's got, it's navy shorts with it Mm and like a big tie through the, the waist and the top is like white edge with navy and it's got like a sailor collar at the back oh lovely with like a navy stripe and erm an anchor on each side, it's quite nice cos she's got, I thought it would do for her holidays mm but the top she could wear with like, she's got, well it's only cotton you see, shorts are only cotton yeah but she's got some really smart erm navy shorts yeah that I thought this top would look nice to wear very nice this at night, it's a smart set rath er rather than in the day oh lovely so I'm just looking for er a T-shirt or something for Lisa no you can't have the pen it's too sharp yeah, you're crafty you are aren't you, you can get zips open now mm So when you going in to sign the contracts? Not heard anything yet Not heard anything yet Velma called on Monday, erm, because I rang her up on Sunday to tell her what was happening, cos I mean she didn't know it, we signed our contract and erm I said to her well if we get a date this week, I said could, cos she's going back to Wales tomorrow, she won't be back till after Easter No so I said could Mike go in and do the fencing you see at the side, to keep the dog out mm so,sh oh she said you, oh first of all she said you can go and get the key, so I said oh no I'm not bothered about the key I said if you could just leave the side gate open, so erm Has it got a lock then? yeah I think, I don't, she must lock it from the inside window back through Back out you see, so er anyway when we got off the phone Mike said yeah but what about bloody power you see Oh so, anyway, she must of thought about this, so she called on Monday, and she said oh I've been thinking Michael'll need electric for the drill mm so she said what I'll do she said is I'll leave the key to the garage under two bricks at the side of the garage mm she said and then he can use the power in there mm, mm so as long as we've got a date by Saturday he can go and do it, if we still haven't got a date he won't be able to go and do it you can't do anything we've got the fencing well no, no you can't Jane because you're not insured you see until no you actually exchange, as soon as you've exchanged contracts we've got to get insured you see but erm I mean on the letter we got from the solicitor on Saturday it said, it, it looks as though your purchaser's ready to exchange contracts in the forthcoming week mm so we've just wait and see. she's doing everything by the book I think, so Oh I've never even seen anything of her Jane no I really thought I would see her round Sale, I've never seen anything of her no but, erm it might of taken longer than what she thought as regards her London ends you see start again really, that's what it is mm well I think Dawn is quite happy now, I mean I think she felt as though she'd been rushed at first, but I mean mm that was her choice really that's right I mean she said to me on Monday something about, I mean it's her that wanted to be in, in, by the middle of March, now I never said the woman wanted to be in by March no we were just discussing it mm but, I, Miss never actually said well I no want to be in by the end of March no I think she just assumed because she was coming down here with her job she was ready to move in that she'll be ready to move in you see yeah but I said well at least you've got it all done, you don't have to rush around at the last minute. that's right. How much money did she make in the end on er garage thing? She didn't say and I, I never thought to ask her, no she didn't say so we're just, that's why really as I say I don't, I think at first she was quite happy for us to go in and maybe take stuff in, but I don't think she was happy about us doing structural things on it Mm cos I think her solicitor must of said something to her you see yeah but I mean even, even if we, if we get a date for next week Jane, we can't get in, cos I'm not going to get a key and go in when she's not there no if it'd happened a couple of weeks ago when she was about I would of kept going over like she said I could do yeah but we'll just leave it now yeah to the day you might as well er, we'll get it all sorted, you know what you like, you sit there and you think oh I want it, to get it all sorted before I go and move, it'll just have to be in a tip for a while. yeah, you can't though can ya? I mean you've got, it takes you so long to place things and No you don't this is it, we'll just dump everything, I said to Mark we'll just dump everything in the back room and we'll stay in the back room till we've sorted the front room mm out and then we'll move into the front room into the front room you've got Easter hopefully to go out and to sort out Well I hope so. your, your front room though I think you just want to get everything Well I think that's what it is Jane, but you can't tidy, but you know, you know in your own mind you can't you know in your own mind you can't no but and Creg's on Monday with the carpets , oh we shall have a right laugh with them two blokes, aye, they both go oh God not you again you know and do I have a have you thought of any that you like? Oh we do like that one in the window That's the that's the one Mike's mad on, and when I went in on, er that particular colour or a different colour? yeah it looks lovely in the square, yeah because I thought it was quite light, but it isn't actually It's the pinky one int it there it's erm, you shut up, no I went in, I've never been in Weeks, to go in and have a look and everything, it was Hamish that was in that time and you can have a right laugh with him, he's the one that came and sorted the hall and stairs Oh out for me and erm, when he went in on Monday, erm it was the other one the lad that actually owns it, so I was in there for about bloody half an hour and we came home with some samples and one that I quite liked it was up on the wall and he said that is my best selling Axminster that I had, and it was like, it was maybe it was a bit too busy, it was, it was greyey and it was all different other colours in it, but it was a lot of flowers on it, it wasn't a traditional Axminster you see Mike loves these traditional Axminsters and he doesn't really, he won't really entertain anything else, erm, anyway I brought that sample home and what else? Oh yeah that's the only one I brought home, on Tuesday it was, well as soon as he saw, I brought it in and me dad looked at it and he goes yeah it's alright, I knew he didn't like it and then when Mike got in, he said oh I don't like that, so I said why? Well you take it back I said and you pick the carpet Mm where's this for then? so, this is the front room The front room so er, he goes off and he comes back with three samples then, well one of them, it has been in the window as well, but it's a very definite diamondy shape More no quite big shaped diamond but it's in like pastel pink and pastel blue and it's very, very pastely colours Can't remember those but I would imagine down on a floor it would look very, the diamonds would be too much if you hit ya mm know wha what I mean, he brought that one home and he brought another quite nice traditional one, but it tended to be quite browny, and then another one and, er You're not ripping that up? and then you know the one that was in the window? Yeah He didn't bring a sample home of that cos he, he brought the same design but in a different colour, but it was more greeny mm so, anyway, I just, we've got it down on the floor and I says if we had a brown suite mm that would be ideal yeah even though there was a bit of grey in it, it was the, really the brown that predominated it, I said it, it, the grey suite wouldn't go with it so you're gonna have the front room with your grey suite in it? yeah then shall I You thought, have you thought of any colours for your back room? No, this is, you're thinking this is for your front room now your carpet? Yeah, er, well, so I brought the sample of that one home Mm the one that's in the window right it's the pink squares and it's the and, yeah, me and Joanne weren't very keen on any of the carpets either and as soon as she saw that she said oh that's lovely mm she said now I do like that, cos it looks nice and warm cos there's loads of colours in it, there's pink, there's burgundy, there's blue, green, every colour you can think of, you've bro oh, you're determined to have that you are, aren't ya? If he got a wouldn't do him any harm, but it wouldn't half make him go ah, cos it's dead minty what are ya? What are ya? Leave my handbag alone but you see when it was in the window Jane I thought it looked a bit too light, but I think what makes it look like that is they've got the light shining Yeah right on it I've seen it down Chris and I love it when you actually see it on the floor, it looks totally different Glenys has got it, very, very sim very, very similar, there's very, there's not a lot in it, I'll take those magazines off you see, oh Christ, erm but she got it in the greens yeah, well I, Mike says I brought that one home when we were looking for a hall instead, but I said no I said it was one very similar, but he said we couldn't have it because erm no with them being the squares you'd lose a hell of a lot coming down the stairs mm you know on the turn and everything it would spoil it I mean it would, you've got to have a big spread really haven't ya? yeah, yeah I mean I'd thought about it for ours But but I remember what you said about the squares yeah I'd like it in here yeah I really would it would go lovely with this I know because even though it's got all the colours hasn't it? even though this is erm not a plain, it's not dead busy is it? No If you know what I mean. but that, it's not, it doesn't, I don't see that carpet as being a particularly patterned car I know it has got a pattern It is it's a definite square, it's definite true, what your colours but to me I look at the, I call patterned carpets all the flowers and mm rounded patterns yeah d'ya know what I mean but yeah to me this is, a square doesn't look the same as the round no you know yeah I know it sounds stupid, but I like yeah I don't like the round no flowery carpets no er or the ones that have got leaves going into mm you know that sort you have yeah to me that's patterned yeah but that carpet that you're talking about to me is a plain yeah but it's a plain square. yeah, as I say Mike says, reckons I Liked it brought the green one home cos I brought the three samples home, the one that we've got down and another one and another one for the hall and stair, but I said I'm sure it wasn't the same as that, but it might have been, but I have to say he always said we would Mike said but you see the fortunate thing about it Jane, with that one, most of the carpets are only twelve foot wide mm which would mean, cos the room's thirteen foot wide oh is it? we would of had to Have another piece buy an extra five square yards yeah cos it was only twelve foot wide, anyway, they do that one in fifteen foot wide Oh do they? so it, we've got to have twenty one something square yards, I think he worked it out at Is it thirteen foot wide then the room? Yeah into the alcove Yeah the back room isn't, the back no room's only about eleven and a half, because you get the back room, the front room and then it goes in a bit right to the back room to the kitchen to the kitchen you see yeah. where it's So what's the length of the front room? Er fourteen ten, by It's bigger than what it looks really though it's bigger than what you think really I think it's deceiving because it's got such high ceilings yeah the high ceilings sort of seems to take it off with yeah I know it sounds silly, but perhaps if the ceilings was lower it would look big yeah, yeah higher that I think it's just maybe er how you have it as well mm I mean if you look at it now without the dining table yeah it looks totally different yeah I mean, Mike really likes that as a front room, he keeps saying that's gonna be our room, you know mm I like a front room he's, he's funny he does like a front room, so I thought well sod it, I hate picking carpets Jane, so I thought sod it he can pick yeah the carpet and if it's not right he can I don't think you can go wrong, far wrong with that one No, it is nice thinking of pink and grey in there yeah, and he wants to, he came home this morning and he said, he must of been thinking about it, and he said well we could emulsion the walls, he said erm, why don't we do an apricot white, I says well that's peach, I said the Yeah the carpet's pink yeah and, the suite it wouldn't, it wouldn't look right, I mean we have got apricot white on the walls in the back room now, but I said, he, I think he feels as though, a definite pink is not the right colour for a room, do you know what I mean? Mm And yet it, I was quite happy with it to be honest yeah Jane because I think it looks quite warm yeah, you can only put another colour into your curtains and bring it out with your carpet Yeah, well what I think he, I think he will emulsion over it cos I mean the ceiling's a bit, as you say she'd been a smoker mm and the ceiling in that front room is a very deep, deep pink I think, if I can remember rightly, I think we'll go over, we'll probably will go over it and yeah erm we're not gonna go mad knocking picture frames down in that room, it's too much of a big job Yes it is, innit? I'm just gonna put a border round it Mm seen like a border in perhaps like a bit of pink and bit of grey on it and it's like sort of scalloped edging Mm that'll look nice so put that over yeah at the top of the erm in of the picture frame yeah it sort of brings the ceiling down a little bit as well yeah cos to be honest, the more Mike goes over there, the more he keeps saying he doesn't really want to pull the picture frames down no well with them being such a tall ceilings, they're probably I don't know why, yeah and I think he feels as though you, he says well if you decorate it right you can blend it in with the wallpaper mm anyway you know, so of course you will. I don't know I see I think we'll So what will you paint the picture rails white? Same colour as the walls Yeah I think, so it just blends in with the border round yeah, it'll look nice and then it'll just, it'll just be titivated up really, so we can live in it and then the back room can just be done at our own time. I, I'll definitely have those curtains for you this weekend, I'm gonna get them done. Well as I say Jane Well then you can put them straight up then can't you? well no she's already got them up. Mm, well what are they like? Well they're not very nice, but I mean er I'll leave them up till I come to actually er get everything done Mm, no I meant when you've dec once you've, you know painted in there and got your carpet down Yeah the grey curtains would go with your suite wouldn't they? Oh they would match up with it yeah, yeah well I, okay then if you want I've been mean I've been, I would of done it last weekend, but, I don't, I had a load of washing and it depends Yeah, it is getting it all done you've gotta get up in the mood Jane, I did Saturday morning Mm it was fine, I thought right get up and get them bloody curtains washed, I had 'em on the line, but do you think our Mike noticed them, well when he came home from work, because I thought of having to put 'em back up again, I just Yeah got straight in from work oh and I had Mike ironing them while I was putting 'em up, I said right stand here and watch me hang this curtain, so I'm showing him how to iron it, so while I'm upstairs putting 'em up he's ironing He's ironing 'em, so I had 'em put back up again for quarter to six, That's alright that, I must have done six loads of washing, for some reason I just didn't seem to have enough to do me loads Yeah but then come Saturday morning it's all accumulated I had to, I was doing two what I call mid washes, this sort of colour yeah and then I was doing two these colours and I'd yeah got about three lots of er white it's unbelievable yeah, I've done that Jane you sort of look one day and you think there's hardly anything Stop it. there, I'll leave it Yeah and then you'll regret it the next day I know cos the bloody basket's full to the brim I'm determining to keep it, I'm just putting bits in now yeah but a white load's there that I must put in and must get that put out this afternoon mm but er, oh dear I wanted to get them down and me others up while John's been in mm cos I didn't want to have no curtains up on me front yeah so I shall definitely get him to give us a lift yeah with them. well as I say don't worry about it cos that first week I won't even bother anyway cos I'll leave up what I've got Yeah cos he said, you see I've, I think it's a picture, I think it's erm, what do you call it? A pelmet, I think right she's got wooden pelmets on everything Has she? so I'll want to take them down Yeah so they'll, that'll have to come down anyway yeah You see I hate choos that's another thing I hate choosing Jane Those windows are so big that you've got though, I mean I do I, they, they probably will fit, I think it will be a tight fit though They're twelve foot, I know that one in the front room is twelve foot wide, by seventy two drop Yeah, well I don't know there more than seventy two aren't they? Mm But erm, they only really just go in my bay yeah there's no, there's not a lot of gathering there at all, what? You're not having the pen cos like Joanne's bedroom I'd measured that, that's sixty six drop so I ended up getting seventy two drop curtains mm and Pam was gonna shorten them and then I said no I think I'll leave them yeah cos it was only like sort of eight inches difference and I thought well when I wash 'em they might shrink anyway mm and er, it'll, it'll Now Stacey, I remember, she used to, this is, must be mentioned within the bunk as well, cos I, for some reason I remember sitting her down on the chair to dress her by the bunk Yes. cos Deana used to have a chair by the bunk so she could climb down onto the chair, shut up Oh. and we always used to say what have you got? And she used to say a big head You rotten thing you, I know well Mike's potato head cos he has trouble getting things over his head, and especially off, it hurts more off than on don't it when er Yeah, it's easier to get them on int it? oh dear oh you've got plenty of ready for this, mm You've got nothing to play with it now. Me or Michael? Why, do you want some thing to play with? Don't don't oh what you doing? Oh better not put you off your food. You won't put him off really, I think he's just got a great a, he's not, just got a great appetite I think, he'll just eat and eat and eat Mm. once you're putting it in But erm he won't feed himself or anything has she not come, your friend? Yes she has Oh oh should of got you some more fromage frais Michael, oh I was looking at them as well wasn't I? And I didn't get 'em, you'll have to have a, a wobbly, a strawberry wobbler. I have a strawberry wobbler as well You what? I have a strawberry wobbly every day Michael no you alright? there you go, gotta wee in a minute, aha. You don't have to go you know Well you've got a lot of things to do and as I say erm, I thought I'll only go for half an hour, but I didn't really come if I say that every time go and I thought if I pop and see you then I gone, now I know I can well now I know I can, that I shouldn't waste it, don't you think? Definitely, you vote for John cos he's oh is he? Can't he go somewhere else? No I don't think he can No I suppose not a thing the only thing I can do is to get somebody who doesn't know, who Yeah. know and get, cos lot I've got his card all you have got to do is go in and say the name yeah, I don't know who I could ask though really, Joe Bloggs up the street His car's got it on that no Perhaps he'll keep it out there, well he had that patch to it didn't he? Well he loves it, he loved it before he knew sort of we got It's a lot of work we had it for the weekend once he offered, I didn't ask him Oh well perhaps he don't want to have any. Well he probably will, but if he's going off to Florida Well then you'll have to sort, by then with a bit of luck you might of been established with somewhere yourself mightn't ya? I see I mean you, just say there's no doubt I'd rather have him sort of I mean he's not gonna sort of get up and go within the next twelve months is he? No. It's gonna take a bit of time by then, hopefully you'll of got yourself sorted I'll think about it then is that nice? He's the type that you're gonna have to be firm with Lynn, tell him the only way he's gonna accept it, is you tell him you just don't love him Mm. be, be truthful with him Mm. otherwise you could have him knocking on your door and you know let's give it a go and I don't want really want Darren, I don't honestly think, I think I'd have difficulty in the initial breaking, but then everything else would go Mm. I don't think he'd come back He's just a baby int he? Mm. oh the hard boy Mm? the hard boy and sort of yes I'm having his baby Mm you don't know, you don't want you're not prepared to be his er, what you call it? his skivvy, he doesn't, you know Well he's not erm prepare to give you anything else well he said the house is going up for sale, I think he thinks I'll be patient in that direction, it's not that, it's just that if it was a nice house, a normal house where the kids can play out on a nice day and just hang the washing out, I could be getting on with it Yeah. but you know, so Yeah, I mean but I knew that before I moved there he says I know better mm, the thing is I mean, as well oh I don't know oh I love to maybe he'll shout I mean he would of put it up for sale knowing that you wanted to get somewhere between you, knowing that the house market is as it is Mm. you know sort of say, well go and get what you need to er, to make it happen Mm. well at least of all for the time being No, he don't seem to care about it's all material things for them int it you think about he's probably had the car for God knows how many weeks, now he's got what car, you know, he could be, you don't know do ya? You'd like to pull one over on him You know what girls do with married men No. I'm going for a wee Right and I'll tell you what they do He's going to kill me with me tea again, I was ready for a mess Oh Jane I've got urgh , hmm oh no, what you got? What's this? What's this? no you're not, you do it on purpose everybody does it on purpose Yes see those little ones, what's this one there? boo What menace Ooh watch the coffee Can I take me jumper off? It's boiling outside, it really is. No. Please No, I don't think it's that warm. It is isn't it Amanda? No Mandy's got her long sleeve thing on who's that? Can we have something cool to drink? Yes. Any ice? De Deana get a drink of water. Can we have an ice cream? No, get a drink of water and stop it Oh it's water we can drink, I've only got a coloured do you want a drink of water? No thanks. You sure? Can I have a couple of these mummy? Pardon? Anything to eat? No. Oh mummy I'm starving. No you're not, what's that lot nextdoor had? Lovely Please mummy, just a biscuit, Trio biscuit, please just a biscuit we get our bikes out? On, you getting your shoes on Jane? Come on . Ee didn't I Rebecca? Cheeky oh, you, this thing under there like that I think I'm tired, just have me water on, I think, I had the gas fire up and I turned round and turned it off Yeah, cos it's so warm so I thought I'll have me water on urgh, what, you're noisy baba, what are ya? What? Noisy, noisy, noisy. Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle, wiggle Oh, so next time you're down here you'll be settled in your mothers will ya? Oh I hope so You don't sound too sure. I don't know what, no I don't mean it that way, I'm just weary and not looking forward to tonight and Are you going to do it? That's the thing. Oh I'm going to tell him, I've got to I can't see him He's not gonna change now is he? changing. No. No what did I have? Mm? Mummy what's oh Deana, what you gonna It's not that hot. do in the middle of summer? Mm? It's outside, you go outside and in a second you I tell you what you can do, you can bring my curtains in for me that'll keep you cool, go on There mum be a dear did I put it up there? What d'ya want? The invitation to Maxine John's got his income tax, that'll please him Oh God thank you very much, so what they doing at Hotpoint? Are they making redundancies or no, they've just cut all the hours down and one thing and another, it's a pain in the bum It is, yeah. yeah, it means he's getting less hours, so he'll be getting less money which we don't want at all at the moment No. just about got ourselves reasonably tidy, you know, after Christmas and everything and set, managing to save and spend as well Yeah. not a lot, but you know spend But at least you've sort of yeah It's not fair is it? No, something always comes along and puts a flaming great big spanner in the works and that upsets everybody. What will he do look for another or Well I don't know, just er, I don't know really, I don't want to mind cos he's been there five years, so if he does get made redundant he's got a chance of getting a little bit of money, not a lot, but it would help. Story of four people this is a story of four people named everybody, somebody, anybody and nobody, there was an important job to be done and everybody was sure that somebody could do it, anybody could of done it, but nobody did, somebody got angry about that because it was everybody's job, everybody thought anybody could do it, but nobody would . You're not having it. I only had two. So that one's mine, I don't want it, I've had enough, you've had as much as me, get on with your pizza mum please I don't want it mummy I don't want a pizza. Well leave it then. It's because of the ham. What's wrong with the ham? I don't like cooked ham. No more Michael, it's all gone. Mummy, mummy Mm? no I've changed me mind about the ice cream mummy it's too late for ice cream you can have a bit of that whatsit What whatsit? I can't have anything. Yes you can. What? Pass me your plate Deana please, sit, your head up. I don't want it. Why take it then? Do you want it Stacey? No thanks. Can I have something else? A piece of cake? Pardon? A piece of cake. I haven't got any cake. What you got then, a piece of what? A piece of that? Mm that's mine I know I don't see why I should give mine up thank you mm What if I don't like it? do you like it or what? If you don't like it I'll have me bit back. And I'll have the rest I like it You've got your book to read when you've finished tea In the garden Oh Michael no In the garden I want to see this, I'm not going to read this. bite bite bite it, bite it, open your mouth, open, bite How much sugar have you put in this? Why? I can't taste none, why, how much have you put in? Three quarters like I always do. Can I have a bit more in? It's just that was sweet. Come on urgh oh dear, you alright? Alright? Michael He's been sick. alright, don't run off probably cos he was coughing, turn that Turn what off? Go and get me a cloth Deana, floor cloth That okay? That'll do, wait a minute Michael Okay sweetheart alright it was awful Get me the er, some kitchen roll first please take those Stace, those things and put them up there give me your shoe you bet you better get some more paper please Stacey get some more paper, I'll look after Michael. He's alright, go and get some paper Come here Stacey go and finish, God that's not enough No Stacey I don't want that, that's no good alright Michael Yes you, pest Say it wasn't my fault, I coughed yes, Michael Can he come in my bedroom? Oh Deana, go and take him then, for God's sake Go on, I'm sorry Michael take that to another place then. Okay then, take that where? Out of the way I said oh go up that end right get me a I'll get it Deana, pass us a chair from out of the whatsit please? Eastenders are on. Pardon? Eastenders. Right. Pardon? Alright, no Michael don't go out you've got nothing on your, come on you'll get cold, come here Come on sit and start reading, leave the recorder alone. it's not an M, where's the M? It's not kimper P P C I've lost my name plate. Usually there's a name plate there that says Coral Coopland, on it and you took it down. My name is Ricky Elliot, I am delighted to be here. Erm, I will start with the two most important pieces of information that I'm going to give you this afternoon. The first is er, erm, well let me put it this way, not the last one of the sessions I did here, but the one before that, there was a huge guy sitting about where Colin is sitting. And before I even started, he called me over and he was the sort of person who, when he signalled you over, you tended to go over there, and he said here, it says here on this programme that we're finishing at four thirty. Now you look pal, I've got two hundred miles to drive, and I don't believe this is going to take that long. I said no. I don't, we can finish right now. Alright, so the, the important piece of information here is, I have a train to catch so we're not finishing at four thirty. We, we'll almost certainly finish about quarter to four. Now if anybody seriously objects to, to this, erm, I actually do give everybody my home telephone number and I'll be happy to carry on er, a remedial session er, later tonight. But I actually have to get home, you know, yes, probably you don't have those pressures on you. Erm, the, the other important thing I'm going to give you, the information as, as Mike said, a lot of people, I'm not sure of the percentages, do carry on using this particular barrier system, and the other important piece of information is that when you need to reorder something there's an extraordinarily nice gentleman in your stationary stores called Mr. Cartwright, and he is the person that does all the ordering. Okay, and be nice to him, because he's very nice to me. Er, but please make a note of that name, because it, you know, it could be the salvation of your future, etcetera, etcetera. Before acting out as a late Father Christmas, I want to erm, come up with some general, how shall I put it, general considerations, this is why you have slides, you realise that slides are not actually for your benefit, they're for my benefit, that I can remember where I am and what I'm supposed to do. General considerations about this sort of thing. Now what you're going to receive this afternoon, is what is pretentiously called a time management system. Right, in other words, it's a diary of all the bits and pieces attached to it. And when you, some people regard these things as panaceas. Right, it's the solution to all their ills. If only I had a decent time management system, you know, I could be really effective, and all the rest of it. Now of course, people who think that way, erm, really are kidding themselves. And when you for example, see ads in the Times, you know, these pathetic people who say, I've lost my filofax, five thousand pounds reward to anybody who gives it back to me, because my life is in ruins. Such people are to be pitied. I mean, by all means take their money if you can, but basically, You know, they should be pitied, because, there is no way that my life is inside a ring binder. And I would feel genuinely sorry for anybody who's like it. I mean, either they have an incredibly narrow life, or an amazingly large ring binder. Er, but in either event, you know, I, I'm not sure I, I particularly regard them as members of the human race. So, the first general point is, these things are an aid to you. They're a tool. They are not a substitute, they cannot in any sense make decisions for you, nor can they guarantee your performance. What they actually do is they, they're a funnel for information. Er, one of the paradoxes of the modern era as er, pointed out by Tom Peters, not by me, one of the few things I do not claim original thought on, erm, is, is that it's not that we, people think that we don't have enough information at our fingertips and are constantly striving to gather more and more, the opposite is actually true. Many people are literally made impotent by the amount of data surrounding them. This sort of system is a, is a funnel so that you can channel your information in, in a positive way. The second general point I want to make is that there is no single right way to use this thing. I wish there were because then my life would be a lot easier. Erm, but in fact, the way that I use it er, would not be the way that Andy uses it, the way that Andy uses it would not be the way that Martin uses it, it does not necessarily mean that any of us are wrong. Er, it really is different for different . And it's terribly important to realise that. It's ev , actually a little bit more complex than that, which is that the things that I used this year, I may not use next year, and I probably, almost certainly won't use two years ago. Because as my needs change, so this happens to be a flexible system, and you can adapt it to your own particular needs over time. Right, and er, the third point I want to is that, you, what you're actually getting consist of two elements. The first is, is a very good planning diary, it's just automatic erm, A B and the third part of it, the last part is what we call the work organiser. Some things that you do are best tracked by date, that's what the diary does, some things you do are best tra , tracked by subject, that's what the work organiser does. I'm going to, as will become evident, mainly focus on the diary, because that's where at least eighty percent of the data resides, and it's the bit that's most easy to get to grips with. Er, but we will in the latter half of what I'm doing, er, come on to the work organiser. Now another general point which I daren't put on the slide is that during this, the next sort of hour or so, or two hours, erm, some of you will almost certainly become insulted with the way that I talk to you. Er, and I did have er, somebody who came up about a year ago, and, and said do you talk to all your clients like this, and I said no, no it's only at Tarmac. Erm, and he said, you know, I really resent the fact that you treat me like a village idiot, and I said, well you know, I'm sorry that you feel that way, but my experience is of a group of fourteen people, erm, is that somebody always gets it wrong. Er, at least one person. Erm, and we can, we can have a sweepstake now to decide who that's going to be. But it, it's, it, bear with me, if, if you feel that I'm taking this very slowly, just look around the room, and you'll see confused faces somewhere else. Erm, because th , I've never had a group anywhere, not just at Tarmac, where people get it completely right first time. Erm, so er,an , and the other thing I really want to tell you is of course, this tape recording is a blind. This session is actually been suitably video taped, to see how well you can follow fairly simple verbal instructions. There will be a test afterwards. Now what I'm going to hand out to you in various packages er, on the diary, is you're getting a two page per day diary, erm, and I will go through all of these things in detail, it just helps if I can give you an overview. Well, it helps me anyway. Erm, twelve monthly calendar cards, which give you a month at a glance, an address and telephone section, some personal information sheets which are very exciting, information tables which are irrelevant to daily, erm, life. Er, a storage binder which is that big grey box over there, and what we call the active binder. And the active binder is this, I can't say this with a straight face, this deluxe vinyl cover, erm, purchased at enormous expense on your behalf And, as a special bonus, embossed with the Tarmac logo. Er, so then you'll always know, and, you know, regret where you got it. However, at my insistence, and this is something you can genuinely be grateful for, the togo, the erm, Tarmac logo is in the inside cover. Erm, please take on and pass along please. Now this is a seven ring, one inch mechanism, please always open the binder by pulling the two triggers at either end. Not by pulling the rings apart. Have a practice click, get it out of your system please. I never really . I'm always interested You see we aren't idiots, do you want to take that sweepstake back now? Er, mine's just a bit stiff as well. There you go. That was good. Okay, everybody happy? We're going to happy until five at this rate. Now, erm, this is the active binder, this is the one that goes with you wherever you go. The reason that I said please always open by the triggers, is that if you open by pulling the rings apart, the rings will eventually distort, your papers will fall out, you'll send it back to me, claiming that the binder was defective. I will be able to prove to my own satisfaction that you are lying,and we will have an unhappy business relationship. If you need to satisfy you annalistic impulses to close the bin , you know to, to fondle the rings, er, you can close it by pushing the rings together, that's actually a more efficient way of doing it than the triggers, but please always open with the triggers. The same is true with the storage binder, which I'm now going to, to hand out, erm, or I'm going to pass it round anyway. this time. Take one and pass it on. This is a true service. Okay,Now this is, now here you have, yes take the storage binder out of the slip case please, erm, we'll deal with the strange yellow things in a minute. Can I just concentrate on the binder. This is a three ring, as you can see, two inch mechanism. It is amazingly powerful, er, please again always open it by the triggers. Again, you know, do that now so,it's good isn't it? Er, yes it is a, it's a strong mechanism. What I'm about to say constitutes a legal warning. If you are foolish enough to close this binder whilst holding it upside down on your lap, I am in no way responsible for any damage that it causes. Now you think I'm joking, but in fact in the States, people in the States sue at the drop of a hat. And while I, I was there last year, erm, there was er, a case that came to court, about a man who'd installed a ceiling fan in his kitchen. It's actually a very sad story. Erm, had, he was very happy with it, and he was so happy that he tossed up, obviously it turned to be inexpendible small child, erm, who was promptly decapitated by this fan, which is, I mean, it's a terrible story. The incredible part is he sued the fan manufacturer on the basis that there was no warning through, saying you know, if you toss a small child up towards this, it's going to lose its, you know, its head. And he won. So these days you know, in the States everything you buy is covered with legal warnings. You know, you buy co , a bottle of Coke, it says, you know, if you hit somebody over the head, it can hurt them, so please don't, kids don't do this at home type stuff. So that's why I'm, you know, I'm, I'm almost serious about the binder. It is a very vicious mechanism, so please be very careful with it. This is the storage binder, this stays at your base wherever that base is. And this houses the stationary you're not currently using. Erm, right, the, what I'd like you to if you can, is to open the yellow things up please. Er, if anybody has, didn't have spinach for lunch, I have a purloined thing of scissors. Okay there are some strategically placed boxes around the floor, because there is quite a lot of packaging and, you going to, you know, pretend to be Michael Jordan with these. Now these aren't, oh right, the strange black things that some of you are holding in your hands are called riders, and these are end leaves for the storage binder, and the idea is that they will have protective pages that are in the storage binder that will make them easier to turn. I personally found them absolutely useless, and I always through mine away, er, right away, but you know, that's, that's one of these areas where you have personal choice. Erm, the yellow things are expense envelopes. This is the bit that some people find extremely exciting. Erm, the idea, what I'd like you to do, is to put the jangling one into your active binder, and put the rest of them into your storage binder please. . And the idea with these is that when you get reimbursed for expenses, you put the receipt into the expense envelopes then at the end of the month, erm, you would staple the envelope and attach it to your company expense claim or you know, throw it at the person who's going to give your money back or whatever. This is of course, assuming that you get your expenses reimbursed. If you are in the unfortunate position where you do not get your expenses reimbursed, my best advice is go get a job where they are, er, because this is one of the few good things going, er, in terms of tax efficiency and all the rest of it. Erm, now some of you, you know, er, this is a big company, you probably have very intricate expense forms type things that you have to do, but if you want to, kindly note that you can analyse your expenses on the front of the envelopes Can you? Er, there are, I think it's ten columns and thirty one rows, erm, so that you can plot where your money is going if you need to. Some amazingly well organised people, and this does, category does not include me, erm, also use these for their personal expenses. So I know a guy for example who, when he gets his Visa bill say the last third of the month, he puts it into the envelope, and makes a note in the diary on say the twenty first, to pay the Visa bill, and when he gets to the twenty first, lo and behold, he knows where the Visa bill is and he has to pay it. Nah, you know, in the words of Abraham Lincoln, people who like that sort of thing will find it's the sort of thing they like. Erm, personally, you know, I think it takes all the fun out of all those red notices that I get all the time. You know l , calls from the bank saying, you know, we're sending the boys around. Erm, but you know, erm, that's obviously a different way of using them. And that's true of most of the forms you're going to get, that there's certainly more than way of using them . So those are the expense envelopes. The other thing you've got in that packet are some erm, er, dates er, if, if, what you'll see is there's a space on the spine of the storage binder for putting the year date for the r , er, okay, the basic precept here is of course, you never throw away an old diary, in case you get sued. Erm, the storage binder, we, we, er, anticipate that you of course, will wind up with shelves full of storage binders housing various diaries, and you'll want to know in ten years' time, which storage binder has your nineteen ninety-four diary, erm, that's what that label is for. And essentially you can get two years' worth of records in, in a storage binder. So that's that. Now I'm going to start with the diary. The diary comes in two packets. Erm, January to June and July to December. I'm going to give you the July to December pack first. Erm, you don't even need to open this, just put them straight away into the storage binders please. That's it. In front of, or behind the expense envelopes? In, in, er, in front of the envelopes. make it easy to The expense envelopes always go at the back, because they're bigger than anything else that you're going to get, to, to put in the binder. No, no you don't need to open it, just, you have to, you can't possibly . Did that just arrive? They're all there you know like, Okay this is where it starts to get a little bit complicated. I'd like you to open this pack please, which has January to June. Put January to March pages in the active binder and April to June in the storage binder. Steve, I'm going to give it to you first this time That's right, yes,that's good,So you can actually throw away the cover sheet, you, you really don't need that. You get something else that says, if, if lost return to,and you might also want to discard the piece of cardboard at the back, because the storage binder does get very full. Okay are we there? This packet takes a certain amount of restraint, because it, it holds a lot of different things in it. What I would like you to do, before you get, take the poly-wrap off please, and just extract the twelve yellow cards which are in the very back of this, the monthly calendar cards. You know, just let's take it one step at a time please. Okay everybody's done that? What I'd like you to do is to put the January card in front of the January pages, the February card in front of the February card, pages, the March card in front of the March pages, and then the April to December cards after the thirty first of March. Turn the page No, No I know. It's usually at this stage, it goes horribly wrong. But do you put the rest of the cards, sorry where do you place them? After the last page in March, right at the end, you know,, that's the best bits Very good, yes, and er,No, no, no, right, oh, yes, yes, I'm sorry. I think we may all Some people will smell of it. Well, Okay, now if we can go through the rest of that package, please. Throw away the cover sheet,right, you really don't need that. The first sheet we come to is something called personal information. This is the kind of thing, if lost send back to, particularly poor at this. Erm, that should go at the very front of your binder, if you really want to keep that information in your binder. And you might want to think it, if you're using this thing properly, the blackmail value of what's in this binder, may be worth more than, you know, getting it back. So, I'm not, I'm, I'm you know, fully in favour of putting that kind of information in, but that's up to you. Erm, the next bit of, that I want you to find which is the address and telephone section, that also, I'd like you to put at the front of the active binder. go there. yes, it tends to finish right there so. You should then find twelve monthly expense summaries and then some annual expense summaries. These are probably useless to you. Er, so stick them in the storage binder please. And you'll also find some sheets that say expense details, the same thing applies to them. so, so keep going until you get to something that looks slightly different. It's after er yearly calendars and such like. Er, simple interest rates, stop when you get to simple interest rates please. yes, that's this thing. The simple interest table is in, in fact terribly uninteresting, it's what's on the reverse that's important. Er, a truly depressing document, called, no it isn't. Yes Oh, how much is the worth? yes Now I don't want you to extract this, I, but I want you to know it's there, because it has a, a specific purpose, which you will come on to later. Okay, so just remember that, that form is on the back of the simple interest rate form. Now most of the forms in this pack you can put in the storage binder because they're going to be absolutely useless for you. I don't want you to throw them away today, er, because you might actually in a few days' time think of some use for them. Er, by all means, go, go through all this stuff in a weeks' time and throw out th , those things you don't need. Okay. What I'd like you to find now, are there, there are planning calendars. So when you get to the planning calendars, put everything before the planning calendars in the storage binder please, and then you should find some planning calendars for the next five years. That's the bit I'd like you gentlemen to find. yes, you, you'll find some world holiday dates, and so on, those can go in the storage binder and, unless you're likely to, to want to know when the Emperor's birthday is, and plan things like that. Although it does have English holiday dates it's true. Erm It's actually got them. Which we don't have. There's a small pack, in fact. Right, by all means keep that if you like that. No, I mean I, I always keep them. I, I, I never look at it, so I understand. You start getting on with it. yes, it's like everything else. I I can remember one time in the last year when I actually thought it's the sort of thing we always put in a diary, It's a kind of I mean it Put that in your if you've got all the, if you've got all these calendars. So, I don't know how useful it, it may be very useful to you to have that on one page, I don't know. Well I thought the English one was so they'll come as a massive shock because they're not on the calendar cards, but no, I don't. I mean I don't find the rest of them interesting. And I have to warn you, coming back to the Emperor's birthday, that I suspect, because these come from Allentown, Pennsylvania, otherwise known as that erm, they, they haven't actually twigged to the fact, that erm, Hirohito died erm, so it, it, if you are concerned with Japan, you might want to check when Akohito's birthday actually is, erm, because it may not be the same one as in our, our diaries. Now a planning calendar's, you've got these planning calendars for this year and the next five years I think, or five years altogether, erm, and then you've got some sheets called appointment details. I'd like you to put all of that stuff behind the December calendar card, please. Okay stop when you get to the map of the United States, please. No Okay and the rest I think from that packet, are particularly gripping I think. Erm, there's the, the time zone map and phone map of the United States, there's the international time zone map, there are key telephone numbers if you're, happen to be travelling in America. There are peel-off labels for the long holiday dates, something with which you can amuse yourself on the next bank holiday. Erm, plus some other sticky labels. Stick all of that stuff in the storage binder please, and as I said go through it, at in you leisure or pleesure depending on where you come from, and you know, use what you want to use, and toss out what you don't want to use. You should now be left with two acetate page markers, and everything else should be away in one of the binders, apart possibly from the dates. Is that, is that true for everybody? yes Okay, the acetate page markers, erm, I was once asked erm, by a gentleman on the programme, where I thought, no where he, he said to me, where d'you think I should put the today marker? And unfortunately, I told him in graphic detail, and thereby of course, lost a contract, because he turned out to be the most senior person in the room, and he did not enjoy being humiliated in that way. Erm, so, I, I will forebear from saying where I think you should put the today marker, and use your imagination. Erm, the, I, I, I wish to explain the theory behind the reschedule marker, or reschedule marker depending on where you come from, but I warn you now, the theory leaves quite a lot to be desired. The theory is as follows. I was last in my office yesterday, as it happens. The next time I'm going to be in my office will be a week next Tuesday, as I, you know, I'm due to arrive in on the twenty eighth. Obviously it's the human condition that you never actually ever finish all the things that are on your to do list, so you always have to reschedule things. The theory is that my reschedule marker would be on next Tuesday's, not a week Tuesday's, diary page, because that's the next time I'm going to be able to do anything in my office. Now of course, what's wrong with the theory is very office, which is a week Tuesday's already choc-a-bloc with various meetings that I've got, the chance of doing anything important in between those meetings is you know. So what one would actually need using that theory is a whole theory, er, series of reschedule markers to highlight different days when one has time available. So what can you actually do this thing. Well, there are a number of different options. You can do what I always do, which is I just sort of casually throw mine away, erm, because I just find it clutters the binder up otherwise. You can er, use it to highlight a key piece of information, whether that's in the diary or in the work organiser. You could use it er, in the reverse of the way that the theory suggests, which you can actually leave it on the last diary page where you have something on your to do list that you haven't completed. And then as you complete those things you move it forward, in series. Erm, I do not personally like that because I like the discipline of writing things out again for reasons which I will explain in boring detail in a while. Or your last option is to do what the good folk at the training agency have done, which is they claim that the today marker is not erm, sturdy enough, so they superglue the er, the two markers together, to make it thicker. And I think I'll stop right there with even more comments, erm, in case I lose that contract too. Erm, so those are the options with the, the, the reschedule marker. Please note that you do not have to open the rings to put these markers over, though you should after you've done it the first time,erm, it should become easier with practice, let me put it that way, okay. Right I will now start to go through the pages. Erm, let me start with the monthly calendar card please. So if you could turn to any of the monthly calendar cards, it matters not which one. Er, preferably the front of it, erm, they look something like this. Okay can everybody see that reasonably well? I'll just stand in front of it most of the time. Erm, and obviously what you use these things for is to schedule your activities. Now let me say with the monthly card and with the daily page, I'm going to be showing you a very structured approach to planning. I am not anticipating that anybody in this room will do it the way I say I do it. Erm, I certainly don't do it, the way that I say that I do it. Erm, what I'm aiming to do is to show you as many different techniques as I know, er, and if you pick up two or three of them that's absolutely terrific. Erm, but bear in mind you know, this works best if you work it the way that you want to work it. Erm, so you can see, I mean there's a, er, a totally untypical month for me. There's no such thing as a typical month. Erm, but those, that has all my appointments on, and I use a very simple system of crossed hatching when I am away from my base for, for the bulk of the day. So on, for example, the fifteenth of that particular month, er, I'm in Manchester for the day, I have one meeting at ten o'clock and I have another meeting at three thirty. But I am out of, out, away from my office, away from my base. And the, the importance of that for me, that shows me the shape of the month, so there's nowhere I'm going to be on the tenth other than my office, because I'm going to be out for the rest of the week. Now I, I do tend to do everything in pencil, particularly appointments. I find that the minute I write down, erm, you know, somebody phones me and says I want another meeting with you, let's make it for next Friday at three o'clock in the afternoon, and I find within half an hour of me writing that down on the calendar card in ink, er, the people who's parentage I then start to question, phone back and say well whoops, you know we, we forgot we actually had another meeting then, and so on and so forth. And of course, due to the good folks of the Health and Safety Executive, er, snowpake is no longer addictive, so there is absolutely no fun in using the stuff any more. So I do tend to write everything in pencil. However, there is very strong reasons for thinking about colour coding. Particularly if you're involved in different activities, different project work, colour coding because it appeals to the right side of your brain, erm, whereas a lot of what you're going to be doing, I assume, is going to be fairly brained activity, erm, could, could work very well for you. And it's something I'm experimenting with myself but I haven't quite got it right. Certainly, I mean, something you should be aware of, however, if you're using colour coding, if you're using symbols and abbreviations, is the minute that you need a key to understand your own abbreviations and your, or what the colours mean, you're wasting time. And these things have to be instantly recognisable. And again, I mean the training agency are, are sort of masters and mistresses they say, of this, because they, they had this stuff and then they actually you know, certain departments will have a pre-printed page with all the abbreviations that you should use. Erm, you know and that's just insane. It's supposed to save you time, erm, not make your life more difficult. So whatever you use has to be instantly recognisable. Now what else can you do with these pages. Well, Okay, you'll see that of course, that's a five by seven grid, no it's not, yes it is, a five by seven grid, so there's always going to be some blank spaces. Oh wait a minute, I'll wait while those of you who are anally challenged will check that. Erm, It is a five by seven grid isn't it? yes, thank you. Erm, there's always some blank spaces there, so I use those for writing up key goals for the month. Now for example, these three, I've got three on this one, you can see the bottom right-hand corner, I have three specific business goals that I'm us , that I want constant reminding of during the month. The first is that it's the end of a V A T quarter. So I write that down because that's going to involve me in extra work at the end of the month. I want to be aware of that when I'm planning my month. The second says mailing list. Now as part of an annual goal which is to run some public courses later on in the year, erm, I've broken that down in a way that I may go through later, to things that I have to do on, on a month by month basis, and this month I need to create the mailing list. I mean, is that reasonably,. And the third thing says panels. Erm, I'm doing an exhibition next month, I need new panels for my exhibition stand. The people who make these panels are closely related to estate agents, in other words they are a lower life-form. Erm, they write down nothing, they remember nothing, and I have to phone these clowns every other day, to make sure that they're doing what we agreed they're going to, otherwise I have no panels next month for my stand, and I would be up the creek. So that's why, you know, three different sorts of reminders that I've put on the front of the calendar card. Now if you look at the nineteenth, which is a Sunday, it says mailing cut, now this again, you know, every month I send out renewal mailing, erm, for people who need diaries. And at the beginning of the year, I would sort of work out which weeks I want those mailings to go out. Now at the beginning of the year, I have no idea how this particular week in November is going to pan out, so I can't put it in for a specific day, but I put it in on the Sunday, because it's specific to that week. Okay. Next, going back to that erm,you know, I said that the key business goal there was to create a mailing list. Now I know from past experience, that creating that mailing list is going to take approximately sixteen hours of my time. Er, I don't physically have to type out the labels, but I have physically have to be in the office, to initiate the computer sorts, because under something called personal job insurance scheme, I've layered the sort of routine under a lot of security codes and I'm only, the only person who knows where they are. Er, which means I can't be fired without a great deal of hassle, er, but, I er, er, the kind of the down-side is I have to go to the office occasionally. Now, erm, the, even dedicated person though I am, ex-workaholic, erm, there is no way that I can find sixteen uninterrupted hours in one month. You know it just isn't that simple. Even on a Sunday people come in and they phone and so on. Well what I can find are eight days, where for two hours, my primary focus can be these labels, producing the labels. So I make appointments with myself, where I've got, you'll see there, eight days where for two hours that's what I'm going to be doing. Mailing. And although you know, to all intents and purposes, those appointments are inviolate, I know that they're in pink on the slide, but they are inviolate in terms of I'm not going to cede that time to anyone else. Those appointments with myself have equal importance, perhaps more importance than my appointments with other people. And I think that's a, that's a key message which I, I don't know what spends time on this, how in fact we always accord other people more consideration than we do ourselves usually. And, and one of the key time management techniques is making appointments with yourself and keeping them. Not ceding that time to other people. Erm, so that's one thing. You also see at the bottom of the slide, I've put two asterisks, on the twenty ninth and the thirtieth. Erm, this is something that I started to use last year. A new technique for me, and it works very well for me. Erm, these are catch up days. Now what I mean by that, is that every, you know, twenty working day month, I know from analysing my time, that I lose two days, two full days to major interruptions. You know, the computer goes down for a hour, it's three-quarters of the day to get everything back and validated, and that's a major interruption. Erm, in Kentish Town, a particularly salubrious part of London where my office is based, we have a monthly burglary. Erm, and it's by appointment, because it's just a lot easier, Than having you know, break all the alarms and everything else. The embarrassing thing is that we're all very right people so the place is a mess, er, and it takes us a quarter of a day before we realise that we've been burgled, because things are actually slightly neater than when we left the previous day. Erm, those are you know, major interruptions. Now, what I do then, is, because I know this is going to happen, when I'm planning my month, if I've got some days towards the end of the month where I have no claimants whatsoever, I put the asterisks in there and that's a catch up day. And that's saying to me, unless something really important comes up, don't give this time away, because this is your safety net. Er, now if you're going to use that, you know, so if somebody phones me and says er, you know, Ricky I like to meet with you at er, on, on the thirtieth, I would just say I'm sorry, I can't meet you that day. I'm not lying, I'm not saying I'm, I'm addressing you know, a national convention, or I'm going to see the Queen, or whatever, I'm just saying I can't see you that day. Er, how are you fixed for the beginning of next month? or the week after that? I, I grant you I mean, it's my judgement as to how critical that meeting is, and I may lose business that way. But I think overall I gained. However, I do use this with a certain amount of common sense. So if the president of my company calls from Allentown and says Ricky I'd like to see you in my office on the thirtieth, I don't say I'm sorry Steve, it's catch up day, I say what time would be convenient for you Sir, because you know, otherwise I, I'd be looking for a job. And the same thing, that if a major client like the Health and Safety Executive said to me, Ricky we're running a regional training week in the last week of November, and we want you for three days, you know, I, I don't say to them well look you know, well two of those days are catch up days, I can't possibly do it, why don't you move your whole regional training week to next week? Because that's just not going to happen. You know, they would say well we'll just find somebody else. So if I want the business, you know, I daren't. Er, but in the ordinary course of events er, this afternoon is, is I'm dedicated to using as many cliches as I possibly can, erm, is, is, you know, that works very well as a way of protecting time for myself. Next, feel free to ask questions at any time if you're confused by anything. I won't necessarily answer them, but you know, I want to feel, you know, in these days of product communication that you, you have the er, the liberty to ask them. Okay now looking at all the other stuff on there, and I look at that and I think well this is all very boring because it's all about business, and business as we know is incredibly unimportant. Erm, and we, and I trust that would be true for everybody in this room. The really important things are, are outside of business totally. So what I really want to do this month, well what I really want to do this month, is to lose some weight. So I write that on the calendar card in big letters. Now why do I write that there, well this is my planning system. Nobody actually looks at it apart from me, so I'm not embarrassed about writing that there. You know a few thousand people see my slides over the years, but you know, nobody would ever guess I need to lose weight anyway. You know, maybe I'm not giving that much away, erm, it's constant reinforcement for something that is important to me. Er, if I don't lose any weight this month I feel amazingly guilty and that's going to help me lose weight next month, and so on and so forth. What you should bear in mind of course, is that in the space of a month I probably look at this a couple of thousand times. And every time I look at this card I take in everything on it and er, at a subliminal level. So it, it is constant repetition of something that's actually important. Erm, again if you're not comfortable doing this kind of thing then you shouldn't do it obviously, and the last thing on the monthly calendar card is as you'll see er, er on the twenty fourth, twenty fifth, twenty sixth and twenty seventh, it has another personal message there. What happened is at the beginning of last year, Yvonne said to me er, we have lived in this house for three years, we must decorate it. I have just been on an inter-personal skills workshop so I knew what to do. I paused before replying to her, because if you pause before replying to people it gives them the foolish idea that you've actually listened to what they've said, and I said of course darling. Er, at the beginning of February we had a very similar conversation, and March and April. May she said, I, I'm not going to let you get away with this. Give me your day time. And I handed over my day timing, now bear in mind this is all in pencil, and she looked at the schedule for May and said you're not real busy this month, you know, you can take some time off. No more excuses. And in indelible ink, she crossed out those four days, and wrote decorating across them. She said we're going to decorate on those days. Now of course she had a very odd spelling of decorating D I V O R C E Erm, but, you know, which lent a certain point to the whole argument. But that's, you know, because she did that, because the time was blocked out in that way, I actually did it, and we wound up with, I now live in a, in a big, one roomed decorated house. We have a few other rooms to go, er, with my family as opposed to living on my own. And so we are decorating the house together. If I'd not blocked or she'd not blocked out that time in that way, what would have happened is on the thirteenth, er, of the month, erm, Red would have called me from the Health and Safety Executive would have called me and said, Ricky we've got er, a remedial leadership weekend on the top of Snowden, and er, on that, on the last weekend of the month, and we've got a one hour slot for you, that's just a golden opportunity. Now you know when someone says golden opportunities they're not paying you. It's, it's code. Er, er, and Red would go on to say, er, unfortunately we're in an overspend situation so I can't afford to pay you, but I personally would give you fifty P towards your expenses as you pitch over there. And I would have said, Ray, please I was brought up with this , and it's vulgar to discuss money over the telephone, erm, you know don't dream of paying me anything, I'm just ever so grateful for the opportunity. Erm, and I would have gone home and said I'm sorry darling, a major client can't afford to pay these people, and so on and so forth. So th , the, this, you know, this main thing of really, a picture's worth a thousand words, and the more you can block out time in this way, and protect yourself, er, the better your overall time management will be. Any questions or anything else anybody has ever done we want to use the calendar for? Any? Okay, if you could turn to back of the calendar card please, you'll find that is a,, that's just plain lined paper which is divided into two columns, that says at the top to be done in January. Now the ones for January, February and March are perhaps not terribly useful for you, because you have the current diary pages. Where they come into their own, is let's say that you wanted to phone me in July because my wedding anniversary is in July, you could turn to the back of the July calendar card, write down call Ricky Elliot on the seventh, because it's his wedding anniversary, erm, and write down my, my telephone number and then distressing though I find this idea, you could forget the whole thing, confident in the knowledge that the system will remind you at the appropriate time as to what action you should take. For any sort of forward prospecting, or monitoring that you do, the backs of the calendar cards are absolutely invaluable. Let's say that you give one of your people a six month project to work on, you've agreed with them as part of the parameters that you're going to check with them every two months on it, where do you put those reminders to yourself? You put them on the backs of the calendar card. It's the same thing. In terms of prospecting, I usually do the training exhibition at the N E C every July, er, in eighty six, a man came onto my stand and we chatted for half an hour, he then said to tell you the truth I'm not interested now, but I will be interested next May. So on the back of the May calendar card I wrote down his name and telephone number and put N E C in brackets. The following May I called him, got through his secretary by saying Mr. Jones asked me to call at this office, which was more or less true, erm, so I got through to him, and said, my name is Ricky Elliot, we met at the N E C, you asked me to give you a call this month about time management training. And he said, oh yes, yes, yes, I remember you, erm, of course he didn't. Er, he did after a while because there just aren't that many people who run round the N E C who look me in July, but erm, there were conventions earlier in the year, but it, it, you know, I got, actually a very reasonable size of contract out of this man, from that thirty second note I made on the calendar. And that's why I say they are invaluable for prospecting and monitoring purposes. You should be working on a, I would recommend a three month rolling basis, in terms of your current for the daily diary pages. In your binder you should have this month, last month and next month. Obviously you haven't got that at the moment, you've got this lot like that. Erm, that's on the basis that eighty percent of your diary, forward scheduling will be in the next thirty days, eighty percent of your backtracking for information is going to be in the last thirty days. Practically what that means, is when you get to March the first, you would archive January and insert April. Is there any merit in actually archiving day by day? Rather than month by month? Not that I've ever come across. I could, I, but nobody's ever suggested that before. Erm, try it, and let me know in six months. I'll put a note in my day time, to check with you in six months. It seems to me that would be a real pain. Okay I, you would probably remember to do it, I wouldn't. Alright, I'll try it. I mean it's yes, well, and that's good, that's good. Report back. Erm, erm, what was I saying. At the beginning of each month, you'll find the first page of each month is a replica of the back of the calendar card. Yep. Except it has a year date on it, instead. Now this is the page where I recommend you do your monthly planning on. The, the back of the calendar card, the notes that make on the back of the calendar card, will be in sequential order, presumably. You know, you'll write them as they, as they occur to you. What you do on that first page of the month, is you put those that, that page that says to be done in January ninety four, or whatever, erm, you put the notes on the back of the calendar card in priority order and add any other formal targets you've got. So that you wind up with a prioritised monthly to do list. Erm, I know that over the last few days you've gone through the process of writing prioritised notes, so I'm not going to go through that process with you. Er, in any detail. It is not enough just to have that prioritised list. Er, you must then go through the month and work out, either on the monthly calendar card, or on the daily pages when you're actually going to do this stuff on this list. That is essential, it's not enough to write the monthly to do list. And I would suggest that you need to be looking at investing about two hours er, up front in each month, writing the prioritised to to list, and then working out when you're actually going to do this stuff. Er, and not making the mistake of underestimating how long things are going to take. You know, always give yourself more time than you actually need. To do that operation, you are expected to wait until the first of the month to start planning the month. You're probably looking two weeks before or something. Whate , again whatever is comfortable for you. Erm, I always, yes, I mean, I tend to I tend to do it the weekend before the month starts. But that may just be the pattern of my work. That's not to say they are things that are happening this month that, that I haven't planned for three months ago. Yes It's the rest of the stuff that I want to do this month. Yes? But it, it would depend on what you actually do every month. Anything else? because I'm a , I'm about to quit on the monthly calendar cards and monthly planning. Richard. If you have say, some people who want something calendared for May, would you bother to actually go into your storage binder and actually mark it in there as well? When do you actually put it in? Yes, yes. And I might do it, it depends what it is. If it's a meeting, I might not even put that in at all. Erm, because I'm, because I don't like dupl , I duplicate as little as I can, you know. Depending on the sort of day it is. Anything else? I mean that doesn't mean you shouldn't do that if you're, if you're happy doing that. yes Mike certainly would do it, I can tell, but I mean, I personally wouldn't. Okay, I'm going to go to the day, the daily page now. If you can turn to any, I'll talk generally about it, and then I'll go into detail. Any daily spread, you've been given here a two page per day dairy. Now this particular size, because do quite a lot of sizes as well, er, we do five different diary formats. Er, we do two varieties of two page per day, we do a one page per day, and we do two varieties of two page per week. I've given you the two, er, the one that gives you the most space for the day, on the basis that if you have too much space for daily planning, it's maybe irritating. If you have too little space it's actually crippling. So I've followed your commitments through this course, I'd like you to stay with this particular diary format for three months. If at the end of three months you decide that this is too elaborate for you or you'd like to, if you need to see a week at a glance, er, you just call my office, send back the pages you haven't used, and we would exchange those er, for the equivalent in a different format. That is, that's not a problem. Er, but I want you to start with this one, because it gives you the most flexibility. Erm, I am not aware, as I say, I'm not aware that anybody in Tarmac has ever switched to a one, but I, I'm, which I find quite remarkable, erm, but you can do it if you, if you feel the need to. Have you got a anywhere? I think there are details in the, er, laughingly referred to, handbook, with your instructions. I'll, I'll, I'll check that out in the break. Erm, okay, the daytime principle is very simple one, which is you have the left-hand page and the right-hand page. The left-hand page is where you plan, the right-hand page is where you record, the end of the day you are supposed to record one with t'other, and carry forward unfinished business to the next day. It is of course, not that simple er, in, in real life. I mean it may have been that simple for Mr. Daytimer, who was a lawyer, erm, but I don't think it's, it's, it certainly isn't that simple for me, and I, not for anybody else I know. Erm, I am going to go through the left-hand side in some detail. Again I'm going to show you a very structured approach to planning. Don't, don't be put off by that, erm, just, you know, grab whatever you can out of it. I'm not sure whether we need, it's better with the lights off or on? Oh, that's something else I shouldn't have said I guess. Erm, okay some of the, is that visible or shall I turn the lights out? Yes, mm, oh that's okay. Is that okay? Alright, now here's,okay, he's a day I've got, this is the beginning of the day. Yes, I've not started to plan the day yet. And inevitably when you turn up a diary page you have between say one and twelve things already entered into the to do list. I have to go back a stage, I haven't actually explained what these four to you, on this page you've got four boxes. Okay, you have a to do section, you have an appointments schedule, you have a box at the left-hand bottom, that says phone calls, and you have a box at the right-hand corner that says expenses and reimbursement record. This of course is an American system, as you will have gathered already. They get away with a lot more in terms of expenses than we do over here, er, which is why there's such a heavy emphasis on expenses. I know very few people in this country who need to record their expenses in that much detail on a daily basis. Particularly if you think about the expense envelopes and the other sheets you've got. I use that box for my personal to do list. As you'll see. And I'm mentioning that now, because I'm always amazed at how intimidated by the printed word, most people are. As I go round the country, and I, I, I you know, I explain to people how I use my daytimer, and er, people say well can I do that too. You know, is it okay. And I say, yes, you have my permission now? Erm, because, I used to laugh at people, but I found, you know, they got insulted, so it is much easier if I play God, and say yes, you know. They, you can do it now. So in case any of you are worried about, you know, inappropriate headings, ignore them, it's you system, you do with it what you want. Alright. I'd much rather y , you know, you did anything you want, than ignore a bit that you could otherwise find useful. Now going back, at this particular day, I have forward reminders er, they represent different sorts of forward reminders, so I'll go through those in detail. Before I do that, you know, let me point out, I've got three commitments on this particular day. I have a meeting with a software house at ten thirty, Mike is coming in at three thirty to talk about the new book, and tonight's one of the nights when Yvonne is teaching, so I have to be home by a reasonable hour, so that we can exchange car keys and padlock keys and that sort thing. Now on the to do list, the first item says check B J L and there's a D in brackets. B J L are the initials of my marketing manager. The D in brackets refers to a wo , a work organiser section of my daytimer which is my marketing section. Now what that's saying is, today is the due date for a job that I gave Barbara. All the information about that job is in the D section, look in the D section. There's no point me writing any other detail out on the to do list, because I'm going to automatically go to that section to find out all the, all of the details. So I, I'm just using very simple code to cross-reference the diary section with the work organiser section. The second item says phone Collins with the thirtieth of the erm, September after it. On the thirtieth of September er, a good friend of mine called me and said these people are interested in what you do, give them a call. And dictated to me their name, address you know, telephone number, fax number, contact name and all the rest of it. Which I wrote down on the diary records side. I phoned and the man that I needed to speak to was not there, he'd been seconded to the Himalayas or something, he was only coming back erm, in the middle of January, I was in, erm, November or whatever it was, I was giving a few days' grace, and then I was going to call. At this stage I have no idea how important this man is to my future. The likelihood is I'm going to send him a catalogue and some, you know, a, a, a letter. Erm, there is a very small chance that he's going to say, all the time that I was on, on top of Everest, er, I was thinking about you, because I've heard you're the best thing since sliced wholemeal bread, I have three thousand people that I want to put through a programme in the next six weeks. You know, do you think you can help me. At that point he becomes marginally important to my future, and I might just make out a client sheet for him. Even I can stir myself to do that on that kind of basis. But at this stage I have no idea so there's no point writing out information which is already in place, as it were, and then I can reference him. It's because, I, I just, I abhor unnecessary duplication. The third item, says check, check B S T, that's just an order for a particular customer that I put through yesterday, and I want to make sure it's going to happen today. Erm, in other words it's the kind of thing that you would automatically remember in situ. Now the last thing says labels code four, you'll remember from the monthly card, I have these eight days where I was going to do the labels. This is one of these days. Kindly note that I have been specific on the daily to do list. I haven't just put labels, I've put labels code four, which means London. Do the London labels today. The reason that I put code four, is if I just put labels on the list, I know that I cannot complete that task today. And because I know I can't finish it, there's a good chance I won't start it. By breaking it down into something I can do today, there's a much better chance I will actually do it. And I really can't say this enough times. That the more you can break stuff down into achievable daily goals the better off you are. You know, because time and time again, you know, we're made impotent by the size of the task that face us. We need to break stuff down as much as you can. Okay. So then, that's er, that's when I turn the page, now I add a variety of other lists. Erm, I have, you know, I have added things to my business list, I won't go through those at the moment. Underneath expense and reimbursement record, I've got two personal items there. Erm, I mean I separate them out, incidently because they have equal validity. Er, I used not to do that, I used to put everything in one list, and then my home telephone was cut off one time, er, because I just never regarded the personal things as being terribly important until, you know, I don't have to pay well over a hundred quid to get the thing fixed again. But now I separate them out because I realised although they don't, you know, things like pick up cleaning, don't seem that significant, erm, tomorrow morning when I Okay, erm, this bit we're going through is the work organiser. This consists of some different bits and pieces, so again let me go those first. You have here twenty six tabbed alpha dividers, er, unless it's going to create a problem they usually go A to Z. Erm, some people use this an alphabetical filing system. I'm actually going to recommend that you regard these things as codes, and that you only put twelve of these actually into your active binder and put the other fourteen in a storage binder as spares. Er, and this is, as I said, er right at the beginning, the work organiser is a way of tracking information which is best tracked by subject or topic rather than by date. In other time management systems this sort of thing would be called a key results area, erm, you know, it, it's that kind of thing. It's, it's for setting goals and working them out and so on. Then you get six pads of different sorts of daytime oc , extra forms such the agendas, communication records and so on, five samples of fifteen different forms and some clear vinyl holders. Those are the exciting things I'll explain later. Wow! You get a lot of stationary. Er, about twenty different forms in all. I anticipate that you will use about three of them. You know, you might like sort of six, and you may use the sample pages that you get, in about six different things. Erm, but I think you'll actually use one, two maybe three of them. Er, I have people who get this set and then instantly reorder everything,plus everything else that's available. There are about another forty things that you can get, you know, for this particular er, binder. These people obviously are in the wallpaper business. They cannot be doing any honest work if they're spending their life filling pieces of paper to go into these ring binders. Erm, so what I'm saying you know, as we go through this stuff, you, you, if you, if you discover that you don't like some of it, you know, you're not supposed to. I mean some of our forms, I, I, I haven't worked out what they're for yet,an ,an , and I'm trying to some run some competitions for the best er, use of, of one particular one, it may well be in this pack. So you know, don't worry about that. Don't, don't lose the basic utility of the system, they're because you're irritated by a form that has no, no relevance to you. Just make a paper aeroplane out of it. Or, or use it as scrape. Okay, so let me start handing these out, and what I'd like you to do is to extract the er, alpha dividers that are at the back, and then separate those out into two piles, A to L and M to Z, please. Erm, now put the M to Z into the storage binder please, those are the ones that you're going to use for spares. Now even more than the rest of the stuff that I've said I wouldn't mention that to anybody else no. Erm, then anything else I've said today, this is really not holy writ, erm, I'm just going to make or suggested arrangement of these dividers and if you want to keep them this way that's fine, and if you want to do something else with them that's also fine. But for today, we're going to pretend that there is a right way of using these and you're going to follow what I say. Put the A divider in front of the address and telephone section please. That's at the front of your active binder. Put the, just the A divider, Just the A divider, put the okay, right, it's usually the bits before this that c ,erm,th , the B to F I think it is B, C, D, E, F,after the address and telephone please, before the January calendar card,Good Okay put the G divider after the December calendar card in front of the planning calendars,. Sorry, one thing I didn't explain, I it's, it's probably quite obvious, but I'll explain it anyway, which is the reason for putting the planning calendars in at that place is your diary expires in the December of next, of this year, you will probably order your refill in October, November er, of next year, and, and based on our outstanding customer services this year, you'll probably receive it next February. Erm, you will want, you'll already have commitments for next year, where do you put those commitments. You put them on those planning calendar pages. You know that's they're there for. Put the remaining dividers that you have, it should be H to L after that section in front of the expense envelopes. Now at the back of the re , rest of that packet, erm, in front of the vinyl cardboard but you may already have extracted this, you'll find two sets of pre-printed labels. These are for attaching to the erm, tabs. Right, but please don't do it for at least three months. I, I, I would suggest that it takes about three months to work out what your best arrangement of categories is going to be. Now I had the first set of these dividers over in this country. Erm, I erm, employ people, so I decided to have an employment section, six months later when I was reviewing the daytimer, I discovered that I had one sheet in my employment section, er, about a lady I had interviewed and not employed, whereas I had a prospect section that was overflowing, and needed drastic sub-division. I was able, because I'm a director of the company, to tear up my dividers and steel another set. If you make the same mistake, er, you have to buy another set, and I double the price for people who have heard me say don't do this, er, and lie low, you know in the first three months, because I believe in penalising stupidity. So, and disobedience. So what I'm suggesting you do is, decide roughly what your categories are going to be, and write at the top of the in pencil, or on the tabs themselves in pencil, as to what you, you want them to be. I'm going to write up a suggested arrangement on the board now. And I'll explain, you know, what these different things mean, as and when we come to them. So what I'm suggesting is that A is in fact your address and telephone section, B should be for your goals, and strategic plans, C, D, E, and F, er, would be for your specific functional areas. very carefully chosen erm, G is your forward schedule,for next year onwards, H would be for God, otherwise known as the boss, I is for erm,otherwise known as colleagues, and J is for plebs, people who report to you, and K is the personal section, and L is new ideas schedule. basically What is the is, what's C, D, E, and F? Er, specific functional areas, not what you actually do in other words. So in mine for example, C er, is er, public courses, D is marketing, E are in-house courses, and F are computers. Because those are the areas that I look after for the business. Okay is that reasonably clear to everyone? What's Loss could be , I'm sorry. Erm, now what you do with this, these sections is of course you build up information over time. So the information in these sections will tend to be static. What will tend to happen is for example, erm, in my section to deal with public courses, I would have information about the venues that I'm going to use this year, I would have information about the mailing lists I'm going to use, and information about the mailing lists of my office I'm going to use, I would have prospects that I'm going to call, you know, it's all stuff that I would tend to plan out on a pad of paper and then insert into the particular data section, and refer to as I need to. Which is why I've asked you to actually split this work organiser between the front and the back of the binder. Er, open your binder, any ring binder system has the basic functional disadvantage that pages close to the bottom of the rings, are very difficult to write on. I have very, very small hands, but even for me, I can't write comfortably more than half way across that page. What makes sense therefore, is to put the work organiser at either end of the binder, to build those up, so that pages where you really will be writing on in the binder, which are the diary pages will become elevated towards the middle of the rings, and make that much easier to write on. Is that, yes, reasonably Erm, that's the reason for having the sections split at the back and the front of the binder. Okay, what I'd like to do now is to go through the pads that you've been given. It should be on top of the, erm, discard the erm, instruction sheet. Erm, Excuse me, yes Just one thing, we're actually writing this information of ours, for individual job areas, on this? I would yes, Right,,, they're not, they're not tabs for other, Whatever, whatever they are , no, you've got tabs there, but I'm saying don't use those up yet, they're not tabs for stuff that's going to be behind, they're actually for pages and so on. Right so, What are you saying? Well you're, you're saying that you build up information about so you're actually writing that information on these Right , no, no, no, that's just a divider responsible, Ah, so it is a divider, yes. So the information that goes on, yes So you've got extra pages, right, which is Don't interrupt. What we're going through now. Because Yes, yes, okay. I'm sorry about that the room, erm, okay the six pads that you've got. Now each of these, alright we'll go through the pads and I'll discuss what you can do with them. The first pad, if you hold it up against any of the other pads, you'll see that it's actually slightly shorter. Yes? It therefore has th , the swinging title of cut-down memo form. Erm, which just trips off the tongue. Erm, the advantage of this one is that you can, it's obviously just plain memo sheet, you can insert a page from this pad into any diary spread, and it wouldn't mask the date information at the top. And this is the pad I would recommend you use, if your diary is overflowing. On those days when you need more information, use this pad, er, for that purpose. I mean, er, again bear in mind this is not holy writ. Use it for whatever you want to use it for, but er, this is a suggestion. Okay, the next pad is Okay, this is a drop-dead sheet. Erm, you know, we all deal with people, who either on a personal or a business level who we genuinely feel the world would be a better place without. You know, people you know you're going to wind up in court with,and you need to, you want to keep an a , you know, an accurate log of every communication you, you get from these people. Particularly now of course, when it's so much more difficult to back, er back-date stuff, maybe because of the success that people have had on pay cuts . And it used to be, it killed off a good part of our business this year, we used to do a roaring trade in back-dated diaries with accountancy lawyers, and it's all gone. You know, it's a tragedy. Erm, what they could possibly be doing with these things I, I couldn't imagine. Erm, so this is what, this is, this form is for. It's for, it's a, it's a client form, obviously, but it's a very detailed one, for all the sorts of communications you get with brief notes about you know,actually. Okay, next, okay a rather odd looking form, erm, multi-purpose memo form, that erm, well that's what it used to be. These days it's perhaps best as a telephone answering machine tool. When you're away from your base and somebody is fielding your calls for you, give them this pad, and ask them to record the calls in this pad, then you can just tick that box on the right-hand side that says calls to answer, erm, and insert the pages as you need to into the daytimer. Next one, meeting agenda. Okay meeting agenda is a splendid form. Erm, it, it's really one of the more useful ones. I think it's a bit too busy myself, but I'll explain w , the things about it that I really like. Erm, I think that the things that are important about this form in that it asks you to define the purpose of a meeting as opposed to or as distinct from the agenda. You know,pe , people confuse the two. Personally I do not go to meetings which do not have a purpose. Or if I am called to a meeting that does not have a purpose written on the agenda, I demand to know what the purpose of the meeting is, before we start. If somebody can't tell me what it is, I get up and go. Er, because it's just, you know, my time is very valuable. I feel that about everybody's time. I don't see why I should spend time some way away if people haven't actually articulated what they're trying to achieve. Erm, other things that are good about this, you've got the people attending, and then the value per hour. You remember there was that form saying how much is your time worth? From time to time it is a good idea to cost meetings. Very few people realise how expensive they are, and if you can remind people subtly of how much time, you know, how much money is actually going, erm, it, it tends to focus people's minds . Erm, what of course you do on that form is it's not just how much people are paid, it's how much they're paid, plus benefits times two. You know, it's charge out time, it's the cost of them not doing something else. I so, don't do this for every meeting, erm, but from, you know occasionally it's a good idea. You've got items to be discussed, and then you've got an ability on the right-hand side them to resequence them. Because people who write very good prioritised to do lists, don't necessarily prioritise meeting agendas. Erm, and yet it's exactly the same thing. If the most important thing on your agenda is number seven, you know, you're probably not even going to get to it, because you'll be too tired. You should make the important thing the most important item on your agenda, number two. You have an ice-breaker, and then, and then on to the important stuff. And lastly you've got material needed and people responsible for bringing it. Erm, how often do you go to a meeting or have you been to a meeting, which has to stop for twenty minutes because some clown has left the files in his office, and he has to go back and retrieve them. You know, this way erm, if it's on the agenda as to who's bringing what, you can kneecap people erm, if they decide not to bring it, or if they, if they don't bring it. Erm, you'll find if you turn to the back of the form, again this is another mis , mis-designed thing. You're supposed to write the minutes for this meeting on the back of the agenda, now, I know very few people who ever actually do that, er, I always want to look at the agenda when I'm taking my notes. Er, and I always reckon others will do the same, so I always take my notes on a, on a plain piece of paper, and put them together if I need to. Some amazingly well organised not to mention tight people, take their notes for this meeting on the back of the last meeting's agenda. Erm, which I just find amazing that they can do that. But again, you know, it, it, it is an optional erm. Okay next. Er, graph sheets yes. Er, the one after that is plain lined paper. Which I'd, Where are we putting these in? No you're not putting them anywhere at the moment. Okay, that's the life of the pads. Right, what I'd like you to do, is oh, Andrew perhaps I could show it with your's. You will also find you have got two clear vinyl holders like this. These are actually to use, for use with the pads. Obviously you can use these if you can figure out how they open, erm, to protect documents. You can use them as my brother does, to put pictures of your loved ones in, to remind yourself what you're working for, personally I find that rather tacky. Erm, but at least you know. What they're actually designed for, is you'll notice that each pad has a stiff card backing, why? Why do c , I'm sorry I've just remembered something I haven't covered, okay. What you can do is to insert the cardboard backing into the envelope like that and then you put that bit through the rings, and then it becomes a tear pad. So if you're wandering around and you want to write somebody a quick note, you don't have to open the rings and take out a piece of paper, you just write on here and tear it off. Okay. Erm, if of course you're heavily into recycling, er, what you can do is put the whole pad inside er, the envelope and use a . Erm, but that takes a certain amount of dexterity. Now what I'd like you to do is to select two, I told you I'd be serious in the last part , the whole is here, is select the two pads you like best, please, and put one at the front of the binder and one at the back. Kindly note these things are ambidextrous, they don't care which way round they go, but I'd recommend you organise it so the pad is actually resting on the cover, not on the rest of the paper in the binder, because it will make it a bit sturdier to use. Yes. Okay. If of course you don't like any of the pads then ignore everything. What at the front and the back. I would, I would do that yes. So I can actually write in it? No put it in here, take all that out yes Put that like that I'm going to change the way I say Like this one here, the shorter one. Right. Everything, and all menus are available from , I mean I, I don't where they take out a listing of , well I don't where they . Alright, okay, no, no they're extras. Put the rest of them, I mean,i ,i ,i , in the storage binder or you know, or you can obviously put them in the active binder if you want to do. So the rest of the pads, we need to go through the colour forms and everything. Okay, everybody put the pads away please. Er, we'll go through erm, okay we'll go through the rest of the stationary with a certain amount of swiftitude. Erm, now they changed the order that they put these things in, so I need you to tell me as we go along which ones are which. The first one is expenses. This form is actually quite good for analysing how you pay for things, not necessarily what you pay, paid for, erm, I, again, er, almost certainly useless to you. Some people I know have used them for departmental budgets, but quite how they do that I don't know. You know, but again, you know, I would throw mine away. Next, Important people to remember Ah, important people to remember is quite an interesting sheet because everybody hates it so much. Erm, it's a rep. sheet. And er, it's very good if you need to record that kind of information about people, but most of us don't. Next? Dictation log. Sorry which one? Dictation log. Dictation log, absolutely useless, completely. Next? Delegation assignment Delegation of assignment. Okay a key form. Delegation assignment. Erm, Okay, I er, you can use this in one of two ways. Either to, you know, write down delegation that you're giving somebody, and then photocopy it and give it to them. Now one of the reasons a lot of delegations go wrong, is because we think we have agreed ground rules with people. Er, it's because we don't write down the stuff, we're not as pr , precise as we could be. You know, that, that's a very common reason. So you can write down the delegation and photocopy it and give it to somebody. Alternatively, er, what you could do is what I do, which is I use these for rolling basis appraisals. So I have people who report to me like Kevin my despatch manager. So I have a sheet like this in my daytimer, that says Kevin. Every job that I give Kevin I write down a, a brief summary of what that task was, and I leave a gap of three lines. When the job is over, I then write a brief summary appraisal, as it were on his performance. So that when we have the thing that he calls an annual review and I call a pain in the neck, I don't actually have to put in very much work to come up with the fact that no, I'm not going to give him a salary increase, erm, because I have his, his performance, you know, already researched throughout the year. So it takes all the pain out of coming up with annual appraisals because you've been doing it on an incremental basis. That's what those sheets are good for. Okay, next? Plain lined paper. Which one? Plain lined paper. Plain lined paper, yes, that's a very complicated form. And you'll find the same thing but with a co , in two columns. Yes. Erm, absolutely wonderful for shopping lists. Erm, otherwise perhaps a little bit too small for anything useful. It's erm, sometimes you could use that as a, as a structured brainstorming sheet. What's called a Norwegian list,w , quite why the Norwegians are blamed for this I don't know, er, and the idea with a Norwegian list, is that you have, you put the problem on the left-hand side if you're right-handed, and then you would brain-storm the solutions for that on the right-hand side. If you are left-handed of course, you do it the other way round. Next? The Iron Ridgeworth diary. The Iron Ridgeworth record. This used to be called services performance day, but we realised most of our customers were . It's a, an overflow sheet for erm, people who charge out their time, by the minute, or what you can use it for, is if you want to keep a precise time-lock for five working days, and I would recommend that you do do this at some point in your future, use these sheets to do it. Erm, each faint er, horizontal line represents fifteen minutes, so it, it's a fairly easy way to, to, to do a time-lock. Okay, next? Meeting agendas abroad. Meeting agendas abroad we've seen. unscheduled Unscheduled Okay, this is er, it's, it's a diagnostic sheet if you find that you're interrupted quite a lot over time, for you know, at a particular time, and you want to find out why you're becoming less effective, you use this to log interruptions. It's particularly powerful if the interruptions are coming from the boss. Erm, because if, if interruptions are coming from the people who work for you, you can, you know, nicely tell them to go away and get on with it, but if they're coming from the boss, and bosses are sensitive soles, so it's difficult to actually say to the boss, boss you're wasting a lot of my time, go away. Erm, depending on your relationship you have, if however, you keep a log of your interruptions erm, well this is the way I recommend you do it. The first time the boss interrupts you, you write down, er boss, on the appropriate column and then what it was about, and the elapsed time, and all the rest of it. Then er, you don't do it whilst the boss is in the room, obviously. The next time the boss interrupts you, you do the same thing, but you leave a gap of three lines, there you see, just three, two three lines, and write boss and what it's about, the next time the boss interrupts you, you know, leave another unequal gap, er, and log the interruption. When you've got enough boss imposed interruptions on the sheet, you know, twelve to fifteen, take the rest of the week off. You know, there's no point in wasting your time you know, logging everybody else, and you go to the boss, and you say, boss you know that personal management skills course that I, you said I should go on, so you proving what, you know, what a good person you are, because you've remembered a month later what the course was called, erm, I, I was told on that course to keep an interruptions log, so you're proving, you know, that you are a good person when you've done this, and i see from this that a great deal of your valuable time is being eroded by my humble concerns, you know, something like that. You will be right, he fished. Erm, I was wondering if, you know, and then you have to come up with a solution, because bosses don't like problems, they like solutions. And maybe the solution would be regular one-to-one meeting for ten minutes in the morning, and you could get rid of all this garbage, in one go, rather than having him wander in, or her wander in, at any particular time, you know, and just disrupt your flow. So that's what this sheet is for, it's an interruptions log, particularly good er, when you're with the boss. Er, let me say also, of course, some bosses, you know, are, are, are sad souls, they need a little bit more of a jolt, at which point you have to put it in monetary terms. You know, and you, you then have that sheet, and how much is my time worth, and how much is his time worth, or her time worth, and you can say, you know, these interruptions are actually costing us quite a lot of month. Next? Oh, that's, you see that one over there, that's the one for phone calls. Yes, then you've got some graph paper, and you'll probably find that you've got some with columns in, you've got yes, vertical and then horizontal margins and then you've got some with columns in. The columns are always one square out, from what you want them to be. Erm, there's a genuine, we, we, we never, we, they're relatively recent. We produced because so many customers said, you know, why don't you have columns on your graph paper. So we produced three different sorts, and they're never in the right place. Then we've got the most sophisticated of our forms, the patently, absolutely blank ones. The ones, most people can't do anything with those, they're just paralysed by them in the States, and then we have project management forms. These are project fact sheets. They're quite nice for self-imposed goals. Erm, for something you want to do, and initiate yourself, it's again in here, it's a brain-storming sheet. And then you've got some more communication records, and then you've got, ah, the annual summary forms. Now these clearly were designed for financial tabulation, er, for people who have very, very small handwriting. Erm, and you can certainly use them for that. I use them for breaking down annual goals, to monthly goals. You know, so I, I mean, I talked about this before, this is a mailing that I want to do in October, which means for example, that I've got to print the catalogue in July, which means I've got to proof it in June, which means I have to actually design it in April and May. And by breaking things down, you know, that's actually what I use these sheets for myself. And I would keep those in my B section, you know, I have my long-term goals and I have goals for the year, and then I have my planning sheets, on how I'm going to implement those goals. So, I, I think those sheets are fabulous, but you only need a few of them. Okay, is that it? The telephone call batch, are fairly obvious sheets. Okay, so that's it. So those are all the different forms you've got. Erm, put all of that in the storage binder, please for the moment, erm, if you, you've got so much stationary now, you'll probably find it quite difficult to close it, but, if you jiggle it around enough you'll be able to do it. And I just have a couple of other things I want to say to you and then we can all go home. Oh, I've got something else in here Erm, okay there are two other things I want to do. Firstly I, I, my office telephone number you'll find in various places throughout the system. Erm, but I'll give you my home number to see what else we do in the other things, phone my office, please. If however, you're confused about anything this afternoon, or you want more information about, you know, managing time and so on, give me a call please, er, my number is and er, I may not be there, but I do have an answerphone, and I will get back to you as soon as I can. Erm, that's the er, that's the first thing. Erm, I'd much rather you put this in your daytimer of course, and then you can't send it back to me. Erm,but more important, er, I wanted to explain something to you which, again to my, to the best of my knowledge nobody else does this, erm, so pay close attention please. This is a, you know, how you should approach change, er, I learnt my lesson a few years ago, because I went on a course, I came back to my office, and thought the world had changed. I called Bernadette in, and said Bernadette this is the way we're going to do things from now on, and Bernadette knew which side of the bread her butter was on, so she said, of course Ricky no problem. Over lunch I overheard Bernadette say to Sarah who'd just started with us then, Ricky's a bit strange at the moment because he's just been on a course, but he'll be better next week. And I was. And what I thought was happening, you see, was that, if you can imagine this kind of psychological or metaphysical equilibrium point that we all start from, then I, I sort of perceptually changed. I moved up to there, and I want to bring everybody up to my new level, so I sort of drag everybody up, but I always thought it was just the, the inertia effect, you know, that I couldn't have a mental and physical and moral energy to last everybody out wh , while they would change effectively. But I talked to psychologist about it, and she said it's a lot more interesting than that, what you're forgetting is, that change is usually perceived as criticism, what's wrong with the way we've been doing things. I didn't get where I am today by kind of mentality. And it's one of the more interesting applications of Newton's third law, to every action there's an equal and opposite reaction. It's not that when you're trying to change that people stay in equilibrium point at all, they actually go down to there. It's not that they passively resist you, it's that they actively sabotage you, because the change is so graphic. So you know it, it, it's just, they will actually, the interesting bit is that they'll only move back to that equilibrium point as you fall down towards them. So in order to sort of effect effective change, you really need to do it very slowly and incrementally. So with the particular diary system, I mean this, what I've just said is about the whole course, but the particular diary, I would say get to grips with the diary first, and then you know, once you're, you're on, on, on tap with that, then get involved with the erm, project sheets and the project management forms. Erm, but start with the diary, because that's where most of the benefit is coming from. Any questions at all? Good, excellent, I like it when there are no questions. Erm, well thank you very much for your time. Thank you. I have enjoyed it. Do you want a lift. Erm, no, no, no I'm fine. Yes. Walking is good for the soul, it's . You've finished it. As I say you've er, you've got a long way to go, okay, fine thank you. We'll see you in whenever, in a months' time, is it February? February is month one, okay then? Yes. Right, can I ask those of you who haven't, to start to fill in your assessment sheets please. Some people have already done it by the looks of things,only they haven't changed it. Hopefully . yes, yes. Is there not one in your er. Come in. Oh, come in. Oh, aye. What can we do for you today Mrs ? Erm I feel Doctor Mm. What've you been doing? worth it,. Erm I still feel lousy. Mhm. But I have a week er but I couldn't open my week's . So could you possibly backdate it to Monday? Mhm. Because we also work Aye. the holiday. . Mm. Now, you went off, when, when was it you ? Oh, it was a week past this Sunday. A week past Sunday . But you know how you've got a week Aye. you can self-certificate . So that covers you up till the Monday Monday. does it? Aye. Up till the Monday. Right. Up to the Monday. I phoned in to work and asked ? Yes. Don't come back till you're feeling . No. No. Oh, I've been out of my weekend off Yeah. without this long weekend due. . I actually picked up the spots, soon as that Doctor came in, to see if they , right up. Right up my ne ears,my neck and my neighbour came in, she said, I think that's shingles, cos it was sore? Mhm. But it, oh, it was not shingles. But I was absolutely Doctor It could well have been shingles. Yes. It's no proof I hadn't a clue Yeah. the stuff you gave . That beautiful medicine Doctor? Mm. Mhm . It's lousy I hate to tell you. you think I don't know it ? Two bottles of that. Do you think I don't know it? You with her, you with cannot pronounce it. Yeah. And she I got . Yeah. Is the rash still there? Aye. It's but I mean I actually it was right down in there, right up, right round and it was painful. Yeah, that's shingles. It was bloody painful. If you excuse the French. That's it. That's the shingles. And he wasn't in today I mean came into work and I passed out in the .. Mhm. And when they saw the rash then they were , but, but tt oh, I see, she says. What is it? I don't know, she says. Yeah. It could be and then again couldn't be shingles. But I mean you know how ? Aye. I said, God, I was , That's . I could . you can't, you can't pass that on. Can you not? I said oh, it's a pity I haven't then. Oh no. No. No. It's, you're not gonna pass it on to anybody, you're quite safe . I was about that,. Mm. Yeah. And they all took, they all But that It takes something like the flu and that brings it out. Do you know what? I've, I still feel lousy. And I Oh aye. finished that medicine I finished it the my chest, I still feel sick. Quite sick . G go and go home and look after yourself. Don't run away yet. Don't run away yet. I'll tell you something, if I it would be the first cruise liner I could find and I'd be away and I Oh m maybe when you're not. I could do this. Say we won a lot of money first thing I do would be to,with his sisters. It's the first thing you got with it, you get a phone call, do me alright. Mm. Don't bother sending a . I want you to look after yourself. Okay thanks doctor. Right? Se right. Cheerio now. We'll wait two more minutes till class turns up. I don't think hers is coming, let's just face it! Can I ask you to do something for me today please? And that is when I, when I call the register for the purposes of me assessments and things I need to know your particular course tutor. So when you say yes you're here could you call up with the name of your tutor so I can the tutor down so I Our course tutor? er course tutor. You know, you let That's one of these problems that the modules system's actually created for itself. Yeah. ! Did you show us? Mm. Because we haven't got a . ? You did! Yes you did!the other day! Yeah. Yeah. Who? Do you live close to your teacher? Yeah. Yeah. I say have you got the student number yet? Yeah, it's with, I've got it. Nikki! Melanie's got one. , she's lending me one cos I haven't You haven't got one? I'm scene five there was line eight Line eight. line eight. Okay? Is Nikki here? Cos I don't think . No, can I next week? Right, we'll do the register now please and if you could just erm tell me the Let's have a look! name of your course leader. Do you want me to do the ? Or can I just Sorry! I've learnt Nikki's ? Please? What's your name? Claire . Do you want me to do them? Oh yeah. It's only one or two . Oh yes we last time. Right, tell me Claire. I didn't do it! I told them. I didn't do anything! Nine two five Nine two five O two O two O nine six. O nine six. That is the right one this time. No, isn't it ? No! What are you gonna say, sorry? What? Alright. Can we have a little bit of hush please! Are we ready? Here we go! Sarah . Yeah! Course tutor? Esther erm Esther. Who's that? Yes. Esther. Esther. Nikki ? Yeah I've got erm Esther . Did you have to make that? Lisa? Esther. Melanie ? Yes. Julie . Ginny ? Erm, yes, Julie. Julie. Jonathan. Julie . I think I can sir. Sarah ? Yes! Julie. Julie. Victoria ? Nope! Nikki ? Karen ? Look out there you could multiply them. Lisa . Judy . Rachael . Yes, Julie. Sharon . Yep! Could you tell me your course leader? Pardon? Your course leader? Oh, Suzanne. Suzanne? , I think. ? Yeah. is it? Yeah. I think the course leader is . Paula . Yep! Course leader? Suzanne . Zoe ? Yep! That'll be Esther. Sorry, it'll be Esther. Be Esther? Yeah. What, for both of you? Yeah. Science. Okay. Right. Zoe , did we get that? Yeah. Yeah. Esther. Esther. Claire ? Yes! Who? Course leader. Esther! Oh Esther! Nikki ? No! Esther. Christine ? Yes!. Dianne ? Christine? We don't know. Hang on a minute. Amanda ? And Steve ? No! No, right. Okay? Pardon? Right! Right. Has anybody actually started their assignment? No. doing course work. I haven't! We've got too much workload. , I got loads of observations here. I know you have. I know. Erm I shan't be doing it? to help you for the ones that are going to do it and I hope you are. I know you've got a lot of work to do. Haven't got time! Erm we'll have to go through some extra things in relation to it, today so that you'll be able to Ha? have some more information. You give them in, they have be in next week! Well, yes is next week. I don't think we've gotta make to get through next week. Well do your best. If for any reason Well ! if for any reason it would help if you had an extra week Yeah! and bring it Good! on the last session. Yeah that'll be alright. It's better . Good! Everything, everything Also today everything you do that day! Yeah, observations, that's good! Alright? So if it helps don't bring it back . Right! The one to one today altogether now room! Room! What? The one to one today. Oh! Oh good! Help me do it, just . Right! The one to one subject today is in fact the City College The college. where you are. And the audience is And why you are here do you like it? No! No. Have you met interesting people since you've been here? Yes. What do you think of the facilities? Can I have some hush please! John! What do you think of the facilities? Pretty interesting! What kind of social aspects are there at college? Are there enough for you? No. And how would you improve them? Has it been a pleasant experience? And how does the college equal generally from your point of A dream! view? Okay? That's the subject have we got equal twos? Yeah, two, two, two, two. Yes we have. Can't do that! Right! Don't matter who speaks first? So when your ready off you go. Right, you two, ready? Quite everybody! This is Jane. I'll start again! Right. Good! This is Jane. Jane for two years she's enjoyed the course so far but she thinks Yeah. but she thinks there could be a lot of improvement around college like the mobiles they could be in better condition. more like the tables and chairs and And the curtains. and the curtains we could have those in. And, the thing that she er the subjects, there should be more different variety of subject she said Mm. taken in college. But she's enjoyed it so far. And with us, she's met loads of people and she goes out with them a lot through college so and she really likes, she does, she likes it so far. The only thing that she would change, she doesn't like all the work! But erm enjoyed it so far. You said that! You said Stop it! Yeah,! Okay. Yes. ? This is Rach , she went to college Ealing it's a bit of a hole! Some people are okay. Erm, hasn't really been an unpleasant experience Yes it has! Which has been . Okay. Next two. Right, this is Melanie. She thinks the college is a complete hole! Oh! And that it's very disorganised and you never know where you are regarding rooms. And that erm she thinks tutors don't converse enough er to find out what's going on. Erm but she thinks she's made Aha. lots of friends and it's a really nice friend! Me! Erm right, okay. Next two. This is Sharon and she's doesn't mind college, it's a bit of a dump! Oh! She'd change it. Erm by starting all over again really. Put everything organised. Erm That's about it. that's about it innit? Mm mm. What would you do Sharon? What would I do? Yeah. I'd put all the rooms in erm order. order. That's it ! Order? Yeah, cos they ain't in order are they? No. Well that's what I'd do. Do you think it's actually the planners? Okay, next two. This is Ginny, and she doesn't really like college. She thinks it's very disorganised. The facilities are okay. She's met lots of really, very interesting people. Apart from one! Thank you! Erm, an improvement to be made in the mobiles. There's not much time for socialising as it's a long day until five, plus work at home. And that's about it. Alright. Next two. Oh erm this is Zoe. Mm, and she's doing a B-Tech first diploma in . Erm, she thinks this college is alright and she enjoys coming. Erm, she thinks our course would be better if it was spread out over four days and not three. Mm. Erm, she's met some nice people. I mean, she's made a lot of friends. But she thinks the college is disorganised but the facil , facilities are okay. Right. Next two. This is Nikki. She's here to do a course care and . She doesn't like the course they think the college is alright. Met quite a few people and she uses the town centre for erm she thinks the, they could improve on the mobiles. Oh right. And the last two. This is Dianne, she's doing an apex course for one year. She's met a lot of friends here and and likes to meet them in the canteen. Erm, she enjoys staff here and thinks they're friendly. And she doesn't think it needs improving. Right. And change over and off you go. Go to your pair . Right. Off we go! This is Lisa. Shh! Shh! She first in Kent. She likes college. Would be better if spread over four days because she cannot Socialise. socialise so much. Mobiles could be made smar ter as there's no exams at the end. Could have shorter hours cos of the . Right. Fine. Next two. This is Sarah. She had one year of and she thinks erm it's boring, bit of a dump!. Erm she thinks college is alright and she's met quite a few people and she likes loads of . But she thinks sho could be improved, but it's okay. And er she thinks the er mobiles should definitely be removed! And improved . Right! Next two. This is Nikki. She thinks that the college is alright but it's a bit of hole! And the facilities are alright. And it's totally disorganised! She's met loads of really nice people and doesn't know where to put her eyes while the blokes walk past! And , the canteen could be larger and erm Yeah. could be a wider range of . Yeah. Right. Next two. This is Jonathan, he's a , he likes the Quite, the rest of you please! he likes the college most days. The organisation is getting better. The facilities are quite good. I'd like to see a bar. More more canteen facilities, all that queuing for food! Lots of people who meet him who he likes and he goes out with them. That's not nice! You said that!they're to put up more was it? Trees. More trees. Better classrooms. Fag selling machines. A bigger car park for John's little metro! m Better computer facilities . Right. I agree with the last one. Next two. This is Paula and she don't mind college. Made a lot of friends. Erm it's very organised. Can't se , that's about it. Okay. Next two. This is Sarah. Erm she doesn't think the college is particularly special. Er it doesn't look very nice. His influence. Erm she said, she didn't like the course too well and . And erm er good place to make friends but at any college you make friends and from the Exea, Exeter College where she first knew me, so that's about the size of things. Right. Are you dedicated to terms? Am I? Yes. No. Because shouldn't be! Okay, next two. This is Lisa. And she thinks the college is a disorganised . Erm the course is too jam-packed and she doesn't enjoy it. . Erm she could make plenty of improvements, make it look nicer, more organised better rooms the people are okay, but that's the only good thing about college is meeting people. The rooms are badly heated, the facilities are okay and and it's been, it's been an okay experience so far. Right. Erm . And the last two. This is Claire. She loves the college! She's on the B tech first diploma on caring for a year, then she's gonna go to a two year national. Erm, she thinks it's quite a good course, she likes the tutors and, she likes going out with friends who, who she meets at college. She has a day off a week. Aha. Erm she If I'm lucky! a bit bad! No ! But she erm thinks that the way it should be only four days rather than three. And Ha! Lucky ! And it could be improved. The college could be improved a lot. Right! I've all those feelings. Seems to be all about stop and go! Right! Let's now talk for a little while about the assignment. Maybe, give you extra help, extra information. We'll hand out some paper this is not to make one of these long lists or anything, it's basically to help you to make some notes if you wi , require to do so. Right. Yeah. Would you like to hand that for me round Claire? Yes. Thanks. I want to go through the process of what we really have to do and consider to build up the story. Not just the basic elements but let's put one or two things down on paper for yourselves. Now, as you know i when you Oh yeah! when you paint a picture when you paint a picture you put all the information in the picture that you need to present the idea to other people. The same thing applies when you build up a story in words. You have to build that picture in the mind. Now, if you want to make any notes read them through now, it may be helpful to you if you think can just remember then that's okay by me. But I always find, and I think you probably do, if you write things down you remember them easier and far longer. Right! Now what I said to you approximately two minutes to the side that's fine if you want to know how many words, who kno , who knows roughly how many words in two minutes? Right! I'll explain to you. It is based on three words per second as the spoken word. Oh! Oh yeah. Alright? That is the spoken word. And three words per second is the way that television presenters make er, their scripts for presenting to the public in a news bulletin. So for a minute you have obviously got a hundred and eighty words and for two minutes it's double that amount. I see. Okay? Mm. Now I'm not going to be pedantic and say anything under two minutes is unacceptable two minutes is the guideline just to give you an idea of what would be a good idea. Right? Okay. Now we're talking about whether it can be a story about human beings or animals. It can either be looking at the animal as an observer, in which case you can talk about the animals and what they are doing. Or, you can take the point of view of the animal and have the animal speaking in a human tongue. The same as I did mention last week,. A simple structure for the plot interest and also, or possibly it's quite nice to include a little bit of humour. So straight forward, there's something to create a smile about. Now, apart from a colourful er, magic of the story line you also need a colourful character or characters. To build up a character you need to know something about that character, what sort of person that character is or what sort of animal that character is. Is it happy? Is it unhappy? Erm you need to set the scene. Now, by setting the scene we'll take an example, just a straight course statement, alright? A girl goes for a walk. That is just a few words in your mind you can see a person walking along. As a story line it's not all because it doesn't say anything about the girl, it doesn't say where she's going, where she's come from and what's happening on the way. So, that's the starting point. That's the basis of the structure. From that point on we need to give a name to that person we need to give the environment, that is to say is she inside? Is she outside? Is she walking in a park? It is good to know, if it's outside, what the weather conditions are like. Is it sunny? Is it cloudy? Are the skies blue? Or is it about to snow? It'll be interesting to know where the girl was going to. And perhaps where she'd just come from. Is she doing anything apart from just walking along? Now, you start that building that information into the first statement of the girl goes for a walk. You then begin to build up a story line, a structure and something which could be called interesting and could be the start of interesting idea. So, using that idea, using that information Mm. Yeah, that's . would someone like to tell me how they would actually incorporate that, that additional information into the first statement? Who's got an idea? Who can tell me? I'll start you off if you like. Right. First of all, someone give me a name for the girl. Mildred. Mildred. Mildred it is! Mildred has hereby been born! One day, Mildred was walking along in the park it was very, very hot and she was very, very tired! Okay. We've established certain things there. There are other things we can now add to that. Who will now add to other elements to that story? It's hot. She's tired. She's in a park. Her name's Mildred. The bird's were singing and the Right. . Yes. That, that sort of thing's important because it gives, it gives, it then builds up original ideas and part of the story as well. Right! More things please? Mhm. The park was crowded. Right. The park was crowded. What else? And say what the people were doing, like you know, there's people playing . ? And, the story line could go and over the horizon she could see all sorts of very colourful kites flying in the sky that other children were flying in that lovely afternoon! Right. What other things could what could she be doing apart from just walking? What does something that one does sometimes if you're contented, maybe happy? Hum? Hum. Right. Hum or whistle. A whistle? Okay. So she was quietly humming to herself. She seems quite a contented li er, girl, lady. Have to stop and sit down because she's tired. Yes! She could stop and sit down. an ice cream. Get a drink? She was Right. In the distant she heard the sound of an ice cream van with it's with it's jingly little tune playing and she thought oh, I'd love an ice cream! Yeah, I, you may laugh but you see if you're writing stories for a, for a young child then you've got to be explicit, you've got to be colourful and you've got to talk in a basic language that that child will talk that like that at that age. So, one has to take that on board. So, that is the idea of building up the structure for a story of that, of that, of that kind. Now, if you can once again, for those who are going to actually do this assignment for me, I hope you are! Base the idea and structure building on that and then increase the incidentals as you go along. The incidentals being part of if you want to incorporate some sort of plot sequence or some sort of intrigue erm that's entirely up to you. Okay? The other thing that we mentioned last week as well is the moral message erm be it, safety factors to deal with, with children. Do it as well. I mean you know how a lot of, a lot of these stories end, and the moral of the story is, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera! Okay? The people here, do you actually like er, telling kid's stories? Yeah! Yeah. Yeah. It's great innit? Mm. Cos you get a lot of feedback and th and there's a lot of excitement. Do you have a chance to do it much here? Yeah, a lot. Cos Yeah. our, our are expected to do it. Yeah. To like of children . Good! And th the stories that you read are all, all for children are they ones that you're reading from a book, or are they ones that you're inventing at the time, or what? Well most are from a book. A book. From a book. Normally. Normally. Right! So, what you need to do is, is, is expand on what you've read and then start to invent things yourself. You will not always have a book available to you. But it's nice to be able to invent the stories as well. It's interesting for you apart from the child. Right! We are going to do some miming this afternoon. Oh! Which is er going to excite our friend here! Trouble is it's a ! Yes. Right! So split up into four groups as wi with we did once before. It goes er Wah ! Oh! Sixteen of us so it's four in a group. Are we playing the miming ? Are you happy to take groups in that direction four, four, four, four? Yeah. Yeah? Okay? So the first four there Watch what we do. okay? They'll be group A. Oh no! That's us. The second group there, including yourself will be group B. See this Yeah I know. The four in the corner including Zoe Ha! will be group C. And the last four up this end will be group D. That's fi that's five in that. Five. So five what? Don't know! What is five? Tell me . is there five people? One, two three, four, five. That's right! One, two Your three, four. That's one, two, three, four. One, two, three, four, five. Alright? Use a five, yeah that is, you're right! I'm going! What the hell are you doing like that? Just thinking of the role plays. She'll be death of me! Yeah. What? That. One, two, three, four, five. You will have used them all . . Just one over. Yeah, I'm putting the extra one in the appropriate place for the role play that's all. . You keep, you keep a volunteer. Right? Okay? Right. Before we do the role plays I'd like to discuss them to sort of, so we know exactly what we're gonna do. The subject for group A, will be purchasing an outfit against your partner's wishes. . Oh yeah,don't look ! Purchasing an outfit against your partner's wishes! And this, at least, mime. But before we start we'll talk about controlling . Oh I've done this before! Oh yeah. Group B teacher now. I've done this. Group B is something totally different. Erecting and decorating an Xmas tree, a Christmas tree and putting the presents on. We'll discuss that. Did you hear that group B? Yes. Yes! Right! Group C different once again dressing in a dressing room for a play or any kind of stage production. I will not tell you what the production will be We got we got a good then! but doing it in mime Yeah I know. will be interesting. And group D, and the reason I've allowed the extra person in your group is Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs, I know there are not eight of you! It doesn't matter. Oh! It doesn't actually matter that much if you leave out Sno Snow White. The idea of the seven dwarfs thing is you've got the seven dwarfs and I'm sure you can sort out who they are. And what I will do is, they are all presents on Christmas day. Oh! Your opening presents on Christmas. Oh! Right? Okay, let's go back to the beginning. prepare you now. Body language is the most important thing in mime. Now, what's a typical, who can tell me what the typical body language is that you would prese present or portray if you said I don't know? What would you, what would your body language be? Shrug the shoulders. The shoulders. A shrug. Yeah. Right, okay. Group A, purchasing an outfit against your partner's wishes. Now, as near as possible you can do that. You can go into a shop and start purchasing this item not knowing your partner is there and the partner suddenly appears and then the confrontation starts bearing in mind you are not speaking. This is mime. Now, what I would like That's very good! you all to try and do this time is to avoid if you can mouthing words, mouthing dialogue. Mouthing dialogue in mime is an easy get out! Because you just stand there and hope someone's gonna read your lips so you don't have to do anything with your body! But this time can you concentrate more on what you are going to do with your body to actually tell people via your body or give them a good idea of exactly what you mean Yes. to say. Yes. Try and remember what you had originally on your on your gesture list. Try and remember what certain things mean. What nervousness means or what it can mean. And also what things like, folding your arms means. Right. What talking behind your mouth means. Looking up and looking down. If you're not sure of anything and you haven't got your things here please ask. Oh could I have one? Mm? You wa you wanna have a look? I haven't got the for a moment so you'll have to use this one. Thank you! Right, Group B Have you? erecting and decorating a Christmas tree and putting on the presents. Now, I would suggest you start that physically bringing in the Christmas tree. Let's say it's a fairly tallish one. If it's a fairly tall one then obviously on it's side it's gonna long. Try and think, work out how heavy that tree would be and how difficult it is actually to get a large tree into a lounge, living room, dining room, call it what you will! Call it a ! Erm let's say that the family are involved in decorating the tree. Now, when you're putting on the presents there are little, there are other areas within putting on the presents that you can possibly include like a present's going on the tree, you happen to see your name in it on the tag, right? And what does one do one picks it up start rattling it like the devil to find a work out what it is! Now, these are basic ideas, I want you to add to these ideas. Right! Group C dressing for a play or any kind of stage production in the dressing room. You're all in the same dressing room. Now it's quite important to be very specific about how you do this because it's not just a matter of putting on clothes Oh! I mean for one production you may need a wig another production you won't. I mean, if you can imagine what the process of a dame in pantomime goes through to get all that gear on then that is the sort of thing you've got to try and do in mime. A few weeks ago we were talking about lifting objects and the size of the objects. If you lifted a large laundry basket think about the size of a laundry basket, think about where the hands would go then down, lift it up and if it's full of laundry then it's obviously going to be heavier than if it was empty but that's the size. The difference being, that if it's a saucepan then obviously a saucepan you lift it with one hand and if it's full of hot water or something then you'd have to be careful. Think about the , think about the sizes, think about the weights and think about what it's gotta be used for and that is really got to relate to the dressing in the dressing room because there's all sorts of things there, there's jewellery, there's hats. Right! Going on to group D the dwarfs, the seven dwarfs. Happy, Grumpy Dopey. Dopey. Sleepy. Sneezy. Ah. And then take which, which one And there's isn't there? you want to use. Now and I said alright! Opening presents on Christmas morning it's not just a case of opening presents is it? I mean, one opened a present, yes but but are you happy when you're opening it? Are you hapen ha are you happy when you see what it is? Or is it one of those presents which Take the ! and you can't think of an anything that you would like less! Handkerchiefs! For the, for the, for the tenth year running Jonathan has just got a pack of white handkerchiefs! Yes! What have I got this year though? Not white, just green! Right! So erm one can in interpret one's attitude in relation to opening the presents in different ways. Their faces. Did you do it happily? What do you do I mean you must still be half asleep in which it could be himself. Okay? Now, this time we'll think about it Oh! carefully before we do it. So can you get in your groups now to discuss exactly what you're going to do, how you're going to do it. Very, sort of slow. Pardon? Don't just take the basic subject today. Think of really think hard about you're going to do. Include something in it which no one else is expecting. Quite difficult wasn't it? Yeah. If you take a facial expression anyone of the seven dwarfs and you want to try and give a dramatic idea how to present that face or that attitude to do it just by standing there without curtains opening on you and all that sort of thing it's quite diffi , it's quite difficult! But, there are various ways you can do that. If there was a long line of people number of seven for the seven dwarfs and they were all standing there side by side and they had their hands over there face like so and the altogether, at the same time, in unison they parted the hand to reveal the facial expression that is more of a dramatic experience to people looking than just by standing here . Alright? So that you are actually creating the drama for the people that are looking at you. Okay? Let's go on to another subject which is another subject we'll be dealing with today. And I'd like you, if you haven't destroyed them totally, to use the little piece of paper I gave to you all. Oh! I didn't, didn't have one! If you would like another piece It's alright, I've just looked at mine. Sorry? whatever it is that changed. I mean, you can't do stories one side can I? I, no, no, no, I didn't need it back. It's for your benefits. I'd like you to write things down because I think you're gonna remember them, he says, hopefully! I've lost it! If that happens to be on a piece, piece of paper and you want to keep your it might be a benefit to you later on. It's there, look. Right! We'll end up today by talking a bit about children's role play. Yeah. Now, in the past, so far, this term we've covered areas such as the bus role play, which I suspect you remember the shop role play of which I'm sure you remember. Mm. Now, have you, you, you obviously heard of the home corner, yep? Yes. Right you know what a home Yes, very well! corner is. I'm sure you do. What we want to do now, can we stand on these ideas and put down on paper some more ideas of what circumstances and situations you could use for children's role play. Areas which would benefit the child possibly educate the child in a different direction, a different way. Ways of explaining to a child or showing things for a child, or showing a child how to do things. Such as? Such as buying an ice cream. has a great education value for children, it helps to form their personality and character, it allows them to exercise their imagination and explore the world of fantasy. When a child plays a game and assumes another character it enters into a form of role play which in itself is a dramatic experience! This is all part of the learning process. With guidance and the use of role play children can begin to experience many of life's situations. Now, incorporate in your play, there is the, there are the benefits of dressing up using clothes that may well be available or using er, specific outfits as well. Dressing up helps to, helps children to find a simple way of changing role and to establish their own identities. Dressing up can help a shy sh a shy child to lose his in inhibi in inhibitions. Inhibitions. Thank you so much Jane! What a child is by anxiety to play out his fears. Wearing specific copies of uniforms also gives children the opportunity to try out occupational roles, such as astronauts, or nurses as well as fancy roles like robots, or witches. Right! So if you can start writing your list of, you have examples already of other areas that you think could be interesting, useful educational, helpful to a child either as in a group or maybe it's two children! In role play? For role play. Yes, it's a role play? Yep! Role play subject. Mm mm mm, mm Sarah? mm mm mm . What have you got? Erm Good! You've got on your list. Yeah er I've probably got everyone else's, I've got car racing . What sorry, sorry? Car racing. When somebody Car racing? wants to . What, as a racing driver you mean? Yeah, that's Yeah. right. Erm, a farmer . I know what I've got. nursing and doctor. What have you got? Yeah. Mm? Nurse and doctor. Yes. Cos ac , they like that . Anything to do with the hospital? Yeah. Doctors one of course. Yeah, doctors one Is a very good idea! Dianna's here for you. Dianna's here. Yes of Can I have a word with you please? You may indeed! We're about to finish so please come in. close the door. Yeah in a minute. How long will you be? Right, we'll wait outside. Alright. Couple of minutes. The benefits of a role play for children particularly are or rather is a play, the role play results in a child getting used to experiences a, experiencing a situation which is gonna be helpful to that child. And often the situation is one that Cheers! Ha! Thank you! That's alright. Your very polite aren't you? ! Right! Next week next week once, before you go! Before you go! Next week if you'd like to bring some more music tapes for next week. Okay? India, Punjab, northern part of India, on fifth of February, thirty-six. And when did you come to live in this country? In April, nineteen sixty-one. Did you live an in any other countries in between the two years? No, I came from India straight to England. What was your occupation in India? What did you do? Erm Well I'm a trained teacher but er I didn't get much experience in teaching although I had obtained my degree in teaching in nineteen fifty-eight. I've forgotten all the years now it's so long. Fifty-eight. I graduated in fifty-seven so it was one year's in fifty-eight. Then I couldn't get a job. I joined erm college again to start on my master's degree, because it was just an er gap, filling gap like. So eventually I got a temporary job, er in ni end of sixty, which lasted til er February sixty one. Er, but by the time I had my passport so I thought may not get a job again better to try the luck somewhere else. So I got er experience of three months now,that was really very nice experience which I always wanted to be a teacher although I didn't join here. So I, I came in April, sixty-one here straight from India. That's, that was all the experience I had which you say experience of life. The rest was all college life. What about the rest of your family in India? Were there any other teachers amongst them? No. We were three brothers. Er two of us are here now. Both are of us are in business. He's he in greengrocery in Roehampton, and the third one who is younger to me, elder to the third one, he is in Canada. He was here before but he migrated to Canada. He's working so none of us er in any profession at all except er just earning our living. Did you come here by yourself or did some of the members of the family travel with you, when you travel No I came with my brother actually, younger brother, who is Canada now. But my father was here before I came. Here in Walsall? Here in Walsall, and my, one of my cousins was here. How long have they been here? Erm, my cousin left India in nineteen fifty -six of fifty seven. He went to Fiji, where my uncle was there. My father ha, has got one brother only, there two brothers. Er he was living, the other was living in Fiji. He migrated to Fiji erm before I was born and my grandfather died in Fiji. I haven't seen my, never saw my grandfather and so family has been out of the country for a few generations now. Er, so two of us came in sixty-one the third one, youngest one, came in sixty- five. Where did you live when you first came here, whereabouts? Erm I came when I came in England I came here. Er, I stayed at Erm that was the house erm belonged to my cousin He still lives in that house. He di , he's, I think he's the only person who never moved out of the same place. Normally we keep selling and buying the properties. Erm father was living there as well so I er didn't stay long er because we hadn't got a job. What sort of house is that one in ? It's a terraced house and er, it's double storey, two floors up and er, it was well-used at that time because the reason was one er, there wasn't much accommodation available and secondly it is the custom amongst our people that who's ever er is in need we have the person, like the two of us came from India, my brother and myself, so we di couldn't get a job. We weren't charged any rent. We weren't charged anything for the food, so we were there as guests, although everybody else was working but we was given the most comfortable er room to stay, so it, there were quite a few people living there because of this reason, that er people coming from outside looking for a job, they would automatically er obtain the accommodation without being charged for it. What were your first impressions of Walsall Not very good. Because er, when I landed er at airport, er one of my relations was living in er Slough. I went to him first. He was living in a modern flat, nice flat, well-carpeted,wel nice furniture in there and er, you know the difference of Midlands and south India at that time was tremendous. Erm I liked it very much, it was nice and in April. Er he wasn't at, er in when I came, so I left my bag out here on the stairs. I went and to just walk around the town. I was sitting in the car park and I appreciated the area very much, it was nice, clean area but when I came to Walsall it was smoky and dirty area I'm sorry to say that and er, but I had no alternative but to stay here because my father was here, I had no money and er, I thought because of relations job prospects might be better here than elsewhere. But, unfortunately, couldn't get a job. So What sort of work did you try and get when you came? Any sort. Any sort. Foundry work, labour work for th nothing was available. So what did you do? What was your first paid job? Erm eventually er, one of my teachers in my school had migrated to this country and he was living in Southall at that time and he was working in a bakery. So I wrote him a letter, told him I'm here, I can't get a job, so he managed to get a job for me. That was bakery, near to the London airport north. It used to be airport north at that time, small house on the edge of the Western side isn't it? No, listen, we'll say it's north, say north side of I sometimes losing direction in this country. Because erm,sun goes round very often it starts in the winter. Erm So how long were you doing that? I stayed in bakery for two years. Erm the working conditions weren't very good and the behaviour of the officers wasn't very tolerable. Because I had come straight from college, it was really difficult for me to tolerate that sort of behaviour, so I managed to er convince the workers to form a union. So I had to they said oh you were the shop steward. So I was shop steward for there, for one year and a half and er eventually because of the row between the workers, myself and er the management, er although we, we obtained a lot of facilities for the workers, a lot of facilities. There was time when they had to bribe er, give some sort of er incentive to the foreman to give them a good time, then it was the shop stewards who would give the workers to the management who will do the o overtime. So that sort of situation we obtained in a year and a half without going to, going on a strike. But er eventually I found out that er, er, I can't er work peacefully here, because if I stopped for er, fighting for the benefit of the workers then er they will think that er I have been bribed or something like this and if I keep fighting for them then there's no peace of mind, there's always struggle, so I thought I'll leave, and the second was, that I wanted to bring my family into this country and I wasn't saving anything while leaving them because that's a bit expensive area and er, the person who got the job for me he said let's migrate to Yorkshire. It's very cheap ov houses are very cheap and both of us left the job and down there. Here I was erm getting about er seventeen Pound a week. When I wh went to Yorkshire, in, we lived at Leeds, I couldn't get a job and eventually I got a job er in a electrical firm. I used to er wire the erm was a tube fittings. It was lamps,lamps, and I was getting only ten pounds a week there, which was just enough to, which erm, er expenses for one person. Then I migrated to Luton from there. I shifted to Luton. I thought I would get a job there but I couldn't for a few months and er, my wife and two children joined me there and my brother's wife joined us there, and two of us bought the house in Luton. And eventually I got job on a scaffold. It was a very nice firm. I enjoyed er very much that it was job. Erm but erm then due to certain reasons of erm er it was again er bit of struggle between myself and my colleague and er I had to choose to leave. Because er, er management erm to his side actually. I made a mistake by telling them the truth actually and they said you have admitted your fault. So I said do you want the truth or you want me to yourself? He said I want the truth. I said the truth is, that he reported that I was sleeping at night. I, I said the truth is that everybody stop work at twelve and we do our paperwork and and we're normally finished by two o'clock, and if you come to the factory by twelve o'clock you won't find any machines working, and if you come at two o'clock you won't find any storeman working so that is the truth. He said all right, you have admitted you've been sleeping so out you go. So I had no option. And then er, there's a long line of changing jobs and eventually I came to Dudley. One of my had a house which was actually a shop previously, but it wa was on the back street, so his suggestion why don't you go into business? And we opened a small shop there and, in a whole week we couldn't even sell fifty pence worth of sweets. So I came to Walsall again, when I left Walsall I never wanted to, to come back to Walsall er because of two reasons. One was I didn't like the Midlands. Secondly I had so many relations. They used to drink a lot of beer in groups which I didn't like myself. Er it was er their social evening but for me I wasn't er very enjoyable. When I, when I came here I saw a shop in which was for sale. It was just er you may say destiny brought me here which I never wanted to come to this place. So I thought let's try. I went to the agents and it was for two thousand Pounds. I said well it's not that dear. So I said I'll look at it. So we bought that shop for two thousand Pounds. I er managed to find thousand Pounds from here and there and borrowing from each other and thousand Pounds was given immorally to me. Er the sale figures were quite good and that. But I had a very bad experience there again. First week we took only five Pounds, while the er previous owner was doing very well. At lunchtime ooh shelf. a customer comes in and he was my wife I didn't have er beard then I was clean-shaven, because after coming to this country when I couldn't get a job, I thought that this might be a bar so, which wasn't right, but we did it. So it was again a great disappointment for me but er, we carried on this struggle. We were well established for even three months. But I'd been working nights to live on. I used to work four nights and er working all day in the shop, working all night in there. It was er, er, Dunlop factory, wheel, Dunlop wheel something in Dudley, or wheel manufacturers something like this. I've forgot the name. Erm nice place. The conditions of work were very good, were very good, doing ten hours every night. Forty hours in four nights. So it was an uphill struggle and within three months we were doing well in shop and I left my job and since then I'm in Walsall. How did your wife and family settle down? They were moving with me all the time and er, the eldest child was four year's old when he came to this country and er, two and a half year's old the girl, younger to him. Er, although they've been moving around with me, but er they did very well in their studies in the end. Er I had very bad reports of work er from the eldest son. He used to go to school erm Mr, I think that was the headmaster same sort of name. Er and he said he's very weak in his studies. I said well there must be some reason? He said change his company then, try that. Well we did. He didn't want to leave his friends, so we found a job in the shop for him packing. I used to pay him, incentive. So that worked. Now he's a doctor in, he's a senior housemaster in erm, er hospital, Sutton Coalfield. You must be very proud of him. Oh he's er, he's done very well and the girl she's a dentist. Er she has bought her own surgery in er Smethwick, but she comes from er,sh she's married, she's got one son and she's expecting another baby any day now. Er she's married in Leicester, they live in Leicester. So, so she travelled from Leicester to Birmingham all day, and they would of then erm had their degrees from Birmingham University. Erm while your children were here and going to school in, in and all that, did they have any instruction from, from the temple, any extra tuition in anything? No. In language or culture it was just No, no, my children didn't have any, although there's, there's er school going on, er being run by the temple all through these years. But er, because we were, see we, I always had a uphill struggle for many years, so that it wasn't er, tell you the truth I didn't erm devote much time towards the children, it is their own effort really that er they did very well. Erm can you tell me something about the temple in that area in Caldmore, its role in the community, briefly perhaps. Some things that Erm well temple in Caldmore has erm played a very important part in the life of the Sikh community, people in the Si er families here. Er number one that is the only place where we normally can meet. Er people do go to pub, they do meet, but it's not a family outing because our women don't go to pub, it's not socially approved. So that is a community place for us as well and that is the only place we can, where we can learn about religion other place because this is a foreign country wi who has got a different religion than we are and there is no other institution will, which will ever mention any of the reading apart from which is So it has played a very important part. When I came it used to be a very old building which belonged to British Legion club previously and er Sikhs bought from them. We were running in that building er our day to day duties. Then in nineteen seventy -two yeah April seventy-two I think, we opened the new building. Then there was a extension to that. Now we have recently added two more halls to the existing building, so it's er, quite er bit of accommodation there for different er duties. We extended er, this er, er, temple by buying the houses around. Altogether I think so far we have demolished er six, seven, seven or eight houses near to the boundary, to add the space to the car park and for the building. Now we've still got four or five houses in er er which are owned by the Sikh temple. That's at the back of the temple At the back of the temple yeah. The gardens are er adjoining, adjacent to the er grounds of the temple. What about the old people in your community? How, how are they sort of brought into things by the temple would they have special We haven't got any special er way of er preaching or teaching different age groups. Er that's a sad thing and er our children normally learnt about Sikhism, our religion, just by, as they go in life. We don't teach them specially er they just er learn by living in the community because er, mainly Sikhism is about life, how to live a decent, healthy er social life, which do doesn't finish here, which leads to eternal union with God. So that is er, oh so it's a part and parcel of day to day er living. Erm perhaps children, young people, English young people and children of a similar age have more freedom, more social freedom. Does it cause problems? Er it does cause problems yes. It is causing, causing not just lot of problems for us now. Because er we have different set-up. There are advantages and disadvantages of every set-up, in every society, er which doesn't fit into the er British er social structure. The marriage, a traditional marriage doesn't fit with the Western structure, because our children er we like arranged marriage. They see that the British children can have their own way. We see that er there is no possibility our children can have because unless until they move around so freely as the Western children do move, that is the only way they can choose the right sort of person as a, as the companion for family. But again we said, see, that er although British children have a lot of freedom, the rate of the success in marriage isn't that great, not very encouraging. So then again we have the reservations regarding the success of the system. While we see that more marriages succeed, although there so some of them might be just dragging, but er a, at least they don't become a headache for the society as children of adult er parents or children with one parent, we don't have that problem. So we do feel that er, while children feel they don't er have the freedom, we feel that er, er, er a very nice system, which has been socially used for, is being sacrificed because we are living in a different set-up. So we are far apart from each other. Erm did you ever face any racial conflicts here in Caldmore when you came? Mm I do, still do. Still do? Mm, normally er people who can't afford, hesitate to walk around. I, I do hesitate myself because if I walk around normally I have to suffer a lot of abuse by, not by, people by who are walking round, but the people who are passing by in the cars etc. And youngsters normally er when, when they pass by, they will certainly say, at your back, something nasty and so er there is no way just have to an tolerate it unless, until we want to end up in, behind the bars. Has it become worse or better since you first arrived here? Erm it has become worse in a way that er we did, I did experience some sort of er, er racial intolerance er with the youth, but the middle-aged and the er m older people were very, very er tolerant I had to ask er when I couldn't find my way, ask my way to certain places and er there was an that er the lady just walked by me er with me and she, she said I'll have to walk with you you can't find it. So she was going to the opposite direction actually, and I insisted that I don't want to take her that long she would have to walk back again. She said no you can't find your way. But now the situation is that if, er we stop and ask the way somebody very few people will stop and say it. But I don't blame them for that, if the situation is such that er, er the ladies are scared of the strangers whether he's er coloured or probably the er or white people as well. And there are so many mugging cases which, in which coloured people are involved, so er everything is contributed to it. Er, there's such a change, tremendous change in the general attitudes of the people. See when I came in sixty-one I, I remember, you know B B C cinema? The buses used to start from their to Hampton, and there used to be a place where they would leave newspapers and they put, put a er box there by that and people used to take out newspaper and put the money into the box and er, you can't dream of that sort of thing now. You leave your door open and while, by the time you turn your er back around er something is missing. This er, this is a lot of difference. It's not er racial or something like that it was just the general standard of the people which has so much changed. Erm tell me about Caldmore Green itself now, erm the shops here seem to cater so well for the Asian community, er is this really so, I mean do you have everything Yeah, erm When I bought the shop in in nineteen sixty -six in Caldmore we were the only coloured people, as far as I can remember. I don't know was there in clothing business, but in groceries certainly we were the only people and there was another shop in er which used to belong to er who now and er, the most popular shop was in er near to the er church. But that belonged to a white person who was, who could speak Punjabi very well, I think he wa he has been living in India for some time. So that was most popular, very busy person and er, since then more and more shops er have been bought by the Asians and now I think er we cater for, for every need and there are some pubs as well which have been bought by the Asian and The last straw I think is the Conservative club and bought by Mr and two of his er partners. So What are they going to do with that place? They're using it as, at a, as a club. As a club? Mm as a club, yeah. Erm would you say that now you can get everything you need in Caldmore without venturing further afield or Erm the situation isn't er the same as is used to be. Erm big stores selling all the Asian er stuff now and so they don't depend on the Asian shops anymore er the West Indians used to depend a lot on the Asian er grocery stores because er, of er things like erm etc. etc. The people, most of the er sh big stores not even in the, they don't sell even now those things, things. But er the consumption of those er goods have reduced a lot because the new generation's er I think don't bother to eat those things. So the, the eating habits have changed a lot since then although we have shops which cater for every need of the immigrant community. But immigrant community isn't that dependent on them. The Asian womens er, women are er they differ a lot in every way to the Western erm female. One thing they are very devoted wives. They cannot er, although i it's not that er, er that sort of erm instinct doesn't exist anymore in the Indian-Asian woman. Er there has been cases where er there has been er some sort of erm affairs between men and women but the majority and psychological er think way of thinking that er the Asian woman always think of their husbands only, nothing else. Er a, they are dependent on them in many ways, b, if they desert, they're not acceptable to this society. So we teach our daughters that er, er, the first and foremost duty they have to perform in life is to like after your husband and elders and bring up the family, and the economical side, contribution from the er female is secondary, although they claim it a part as well, erm as economically as well . Do they go out to work? Most of them most of them do go out to work. Specially the Indian women. Erm the Pakistani women, they have started venturing out now. Er we've been in, ten years in this shop and er, for those ten years I have experienced a lot of er difference in the attitudes of Muslim women as well. They have started working and er they have started going out to work in the factories as well. Do you think this is a good thing? It is a good thing. Er it is a good thing as a health thing because they, at home they didn't get the company. It was boring for them and now they go out they spend some time er amongst each other and they have time to chat around. Er wh when you earn something with your own efforts it, it also helps the money you get earned by somebody else. What about language difficulties, do the women It's tremendous. Er it's very serious. Er they're getting on well because erm, er we live in a close er society. We're, they tend to buy houses where er others, there are already er houses of the same community. So we don't experience that difficulty but otherwise it's very serious. It's very difficult to communicate. What sort of jobs do the women do? It's mostly sewing job in the clothing factories, low-paid. Is it local? Local, yeah local. Do you get your supplies locally from We the area? Er we do get locally as well and from outside as well. There are people, wholesalers coming from London who supply us the goods and er there are some goods which are manufactured in this country, some are imported. The majority of the are made in Leicester. You've got such a wonderful array down there. I was looking at them. Well we have to keep variety to make something. There are fashions are there as well for for the women not Yeah bother them quite so much. Erm recently this er Asian dress has become very popular er, you know, in India it's a country. Punjabi's, Punjabi women wear these baggy trousers and er . The women used to wear sari and I have never seen a lately with anything but sari, but now they have started wearing the Punjabi dress. So it has become a fashion now. Er instead of buying ready-made er dresses I suppose which wer became er very popular at one time with the Indian girls and the Pakistani girls. Pakistani girls used to wear er trousers underneath that. We have stopped that and now they are making their own, most of them are making their own fashionable garments out of the loose material we sell and er, some ask the friends to make for them. Are they warm enough? It always bothers me that they never seem, you know, very warm No they're not but they've been getting on all right really. It's not very warm. They wear more, more or less the same sort of er material through the year. Er sometimes I always laugh I say it's funny when erm it's about twenty degrees outside they're still wearing the same dress and when it's minus fifteen or ten they're still wearing the same dress. But erm they put on certain warm clothes on. Erm a few months back I was interviewing someone who lived in the area all their life and she said that the Sikh temple had distributed some E E C erm butter I think it was. Is, is that so? Yeah Erm when, you know when they send the free butter, previously they sent butter cheap butter to the big supermarkets, so the distributor charged something for this. Last time er it was er free distribution, so they needed someone to, workers for that and Sikh temple offered their services and er, I think they did the job very well because mostly we get a lot of volunteers round and er, many times I went their there was quite a big queue, er five or six people were serving at the same time. They undertook to do it for the whole of the Caldmore area did they? I think they did, yeah Because I don't get much time during the day er to go away from the shop but er I, the only job I mostly do is when the visitors come to the er temple I have to go there explain about Sikhism. But er other you can't do everything i o that so it can er Do you get many visitors to the temple Yes we get many visitors. We had a teaching-training class today. They came at ten o'clock. I take er assemblies in the morning er in schools, so I wasn't today. I finished assembly at a nine-thirty, ten o'clock I was in temple and er worked there til twelve. Do you instruct them? Mm I explain them what we're doing in the temple, what is our religion like. Erm tell me about these assemblies in the school. What do you do? We've been feeling for some time that our children are feeling that they've been left alone, because er when they come to the temple they are too young to understand anything which is being explained from the stage, because er the speakers, or the preachers, have to cater for all the age groups and normally it's for the, those who understand, already understand about Sikhism. Er so we wrote to the heads of the schools and they were quite willing to accommodate er us and then I found out that er Muslims are already taking assemblies for a few years. So its been quite helpful. I,w we five, six minutes, we worship the way we normally worship at home. See, Sikh worship is remembering God, that's all. Er, see when, when s , when I say worship it er, it sounds like er, er playing some rituals or something like this, but there's no ritual in the Sikh faith it's just remembering God. So we erm So there are no set prayers or anything like that? Yeah yeah, set prayers. See first er, line of er is the set prayer, then we go add to that er, say first full hymn is our morning, what, what we call The first line we would call the basic er say route of the er magics, that's the magic, which erm, er which erm con controls the er eternal er power. See, it, it brings, takes us near to God, so eventually it helps us to er unite with him. So we recite that at the er er assembly. Then I, for a few minutes, we've got only fifteen minutes so, about twelve to fifteen minutes, and I explain them the historical aspects. Just simple. It's not er a really a teaching which er is important, it's just that they know that er we have a Sikh assembly and since then er I have found er they have a type of great moral courage, they're proud of themselves. Gives them more identity Yes it does give them more identity. See the first week I went to these schools they couldn't speak a word of Punjabi. Wouldn't dare to. It wasn't that they couldn't speak, they didn't no how to speak, they didn't no how to speak but they couldn't. I had to repeat very simple sentences, six, seven, eight, ten times before they could repeat it. Now it's spontaneous. So it has made a lot of difference. I enjoy it very much. Your home life in India, how does it compare with here, the sort of home you had? It's very different, very different. I come from a village It's like er, erm a lion in general, a lion in cage. a lot of difference. So when I go back, although I didn't go back since nineteen eighty-three, because the situation is not that favourable since then, I felt that I'm out of the cage. Although I've been here for a long time, I've got my house, got my family here, I've got comfortable living, although not er luxurious but er normal standard, better standard than I could have in India. Er but because I was born in the country, lazy I was. I look at erm the countryside probably because of that. Er the industrial life I never experienced before. It's more busy, no relaxation. Over there we do work over there, we do work here but er, we always work in a relaxing way over there but here always tension. And that's the difference between the industrialist er situation and the country situation. It's a lot of difference. cos he's coming down Are you doing it as well. Yeah . You other people and you've obviously got time to start preparing your thoughts. Yes. Alright. take . Well know it's it's there all the time. We were just carrying on. . . Right . . So what I did with you last week I said erm but It is a good start really,someone else . . Sh. Can you say that again? Tony he pretends to be someone else in this and er more . alright . Yeah.. Alright. More Solomon . Solomons. Solomons yeah.. Is that chap as well. . . And and what is the point of disguising disguise? Well it means just taking apart. in terms of any length, what's it doing to the plot for a start. Well when Tony pretends it sort of gets the ball rolling. So it's a kind of plot Yeah. . You've got haven't you? Yeah. . . erm why Marlowe and he thinks that the family and servants So . Yes . . Not making really. I suppose it's the set up . O K that's fairly basic stuff you've got people . Relationships. You've got relationships, yes. Alison say about previous ideas, what's that. You're quite sure. You've got unknown disguises How do you mean unknown disguises? Well Marlowe doesn't know who Mister Hardcastle is and doesn't know who Miss Hardcastle is Right. So he is the victim? Yeah. Is he? He's unaware of everything that's going on. is that right, what's Marlowe's role in all of this . Well it's just like that the joke kinda on him because he's erm, he's the one they're all concealing the identity of the house Even his best friend? Yeah and erm yeah, he's keep up the joke. Right. They don't want it to interfere with their plans Erm does this question diary it all?he look like . Because erm it's all the plot can be seen by the audience. It's not exactly what's gonna happen in the plot we all know what happens it's like how it will happen romantic outcome or what Erm well we all know what's going to happen and they sort of give an idea of the plot but it's only Marlowe who doesn't know. so we know more than the characters do Yes, or that character does Yeah. So we're all in kind of conspiracy and everyone else except Marlowe is that right? Yes. Marlowe perhaps figures in other ways as well doesn't he? . . I er it's just that we, all of us are on different pages. . Oh yeah. . It's more emotional . It's not really erm intentional this guy . Yes she puts it on. Well it's sort of . she finds it easier to talk to come out with it.. Yes. It's not deliberate though is it? No, it's just that erm he feels comfortable and doesn't have to put on a show O K. more erm abrupt more familiar side of him coming out Isn't that a little bit pathetic? Yeah. He can only be himself with a female inferior. . No we ought to . . No like that's not it to go with their mates . I suppose that's true. There's all being themselves. You just said that Englishmen prefer being with other men. . I suppose it can be the same I think it's just a bit more extreme like the characteristic he shows when he's in female company like erm just like going over the top the way he acts . So there isn't any truth all of this Yeah. O K so if any of you could make because it's one more interesting psychological ploys in the play, there aren't very many of them are there?comedy I suppose I'll play behaviour. Willis erm something to that class isn't it and and what you have classed as having more mileage . Francesca what do you think? No . Whatever . Lots of concerning It's really exag it's really exaggerated, they really make erm, I can make all the country folk showed as real louts most of the people in the pub Tony and then the servants are really stupid and then They're not real butlers they're being trained Yeah, they're just like farmhands Yeah well I've got to be erm But even like erm Mr and Mrs , like they come over as just comic figures really. Because Mrs like erm sort of assumes herself to be really fashionable by the things that like up with the fashions or anything and then Mr self important stories of the War . Yes. disguise . I was going to actually ask the same question. Erm you haven't you? believe in . Self delusion.. . what I said . . What about erm, we haven't read any today, have we? Erm there's a coach ride. Oh yeah and it is totally . . Yeah. She doesn't recognise the Yes. Mrs . This is when disbelief actually suspended later. Do you see the performance of it? Yeah. Does that get round the problem? What . Mm. Well I suppose it was a bit far fetched. I don't like the and everything . People were coming in and out the shadows, like telling his mum to cuddle up to to go everything. That was a bit far fetched I suppose but erm you won't be looking at it for it is believable or not . . It was just quite funny. So it's dramatic inventions Yeah . I think so, that feeling for highwayman. Erm have people coming on and off stage when they want sides. I think. What you've got to do then is to relate erm, this particular topic to, shall we say themes, and techniques in the play itself. and also this happened in Shakespeare's plays too. Erm what it reveals of people psychologically, if anything. It is not a very profound play Francesca, anything else you wanted to throw in that we've not included here? Erm that's not all. could you do the servants . You mean the serving men Yeah. They were sort of weren't they. In what . . No they've sort of working on the farm They're just labourers. Yeah. Erm because in fact quite funny seeing they're all being er to laugh erm see what servants in. That links up as farce again, doesn't it? Mm. and dramatic erm action And erm what Mrs and what it actually . Yeah I see . Kate Hardcastle and Tony. No Mrs . Oh right. But I don't disguise. What about the two pairs of children. What about Mr and Kate? She seems fairly true to her father sees this through her . Perfection. Yeah, but she's more settled in. No, yeah . Well sh She's not really better is she? Yeah well she does actually erm say to everyone in a rather creepy way that require do doesn't she? Help him to quote it's more obvious to the audience how, like, Tony's just after what he can get sort of thing. Complete write off. Yeah. parents with their siblings that How will that be described though? Yeah. Well he's that . Yeah but it's what she's perceiving really isn't it? Yeah. What she's deluding herself to think Didn't he help with that illusion? Not really. I don't think he really tries to hide the fact that he's like that he steals her money. Yeah to go down to the pub Yeah he doesn't really try to impress her he makes things worse I think O K so she's a doting mother, is that right?what want. Erm I still want to bring Kate and her father as well I think cos he's looking at some people, isn't he? Know what I mean? Mm. That should be . agree. Well it's your essay not mine but . . Erm what about when Mrs Hardcastle doesn't want to give up the jewels. Yes he's rude . She conceals Tony's age cos he's really twenty one . Just those keep like the jewels in their family . . That would do nicely, wouldn't it? Erm, she also lies about er thing lost. in the windows discarded.. Mm. That was seen .. Only about Miss and Hastings. Yeah. Have you read, have you looked in that? . mention that . Well I think not so much about when Hastings was there. Miss and Tony you have to kinda pretend that they do like each other so that erm the mother doesn't suspect her of liking Hastings. Mm. So that's more, shall we say, purposeful, disguising her feelings. more cunning stuff going on here as well. Is that right? Mm. yeah. Would you say much more farcical Yeah. theatrical. Yeah and Hastings and the . Yes and those two are the least kind of losing . Mm. This is the essay you are actually going to write. Yeah.. maybe maybe not sure but you're not certain No, well we've done a little bit. There's obviously not very much here but I mean Would you themes ? Would I write? take take emotional and discuss it . Alright so you are going to judge the characters of the . I wouldn't think I'd discuss it under functions really . See perhaps I'd like to more section to. What the disguise is doing. Whether it's just a plot Mm. erm device or whether it's telling us something about human beings. . It would be up to you really to common purposes. Well that's a start isn't it? Shall we move that one round?girls please. Round yourselves up.. . . . What's the actual title She stoops to conquer and discuss the ways in which women are portrayed in the play. Portrayed . . O K then. to Miss came . So Miss pays with compliments. That's clear Miss is . . Oh I'm sorry. Er anyway . . But you could mention these er women that Mrs talks about . Mrs and all these other kind of er interesting offstage characters. Erm when there's people every minute he goes, is that makes out. No. Mrs mentions that when she's talking about sophisticated London Her friends. They visit London but she doesn't Alright fine you might if you're desperate mention that . You could say that erm Mrs likes it with the local . You know in love with him. Yes and at the end of the play as well. Yeah. Erm what you have to avoid is just divide into three? Do you agree with that would be rather dull she did that. It would be rather dull. . plans . Oh well if you really want to you can. It you just look very very well . trip and if you're not going to divide it into three. Well as Dennis was implying, erm you're really looking say at the low comedy. Mrs came to . put into themes Well that will seem to me to be a bit more but obviously it's up to you but it may not quite work out as neatly as erm but you may well like to think about the role of women as perceived, the way they treat men and relationships. So you could do more under that heading couldn't you? portrayal of women Yes but like the are just planning to affection based on mutual whatever it is they base Mrs as the villain of the peace. Yeah I thought that about it . she just seemed kind of old fashioned. to say that erm erm they are saying that erm she's most funny and things like that and she's got great depth. great depth So th the comes on a bit heavy at times doesn't it? Yeah. And makes a great meal of that material. She's a villain of the peace. Well I think you need to go look at that. . Erm er we'll look it up sometime erm affection with Tony. Yeah,?. which makes her a villain no makes her not as bad oh First of all they said she was the villain. Then they went on to say why she . She keeps repeating . . Well because she wants the jewels that's why she's she's sort of like er . She's only interest . She she's obscuring the truth a bit isn't she? totally within . and that's the name. . . and her as well. . she's famous . Oh I see, yes and she wants to go to make out that she's er whatever age she is. Yeah, yeah. and she wants to get Tony and Constance together . really really that good . Makes her. Yes she's isn't she? . she comes out of the bush and says she wants a highwayman to take her. Isn't that rather heroic? Yeah. That's it in there . There's like two sides to it. I think you're all being a bit heavy with all of this as treating her like a George Eliot heroine. Erm she's obviously got quite a lot of material for anybody to look at. Erm, what about the fact that she does want to er keep her looks and be fashionable then doesn't she? The girls to say about women in particular. Doesn't that sort of bring in to the country and she's out in the country and she wants to show it to them that she she's sort of she's still fashionable . Yeah, she's a . . Erm suggest that appear fashionable. You'll find the equivalent as well. I thought just we can see that she's quite an extremist just . . You want to discuss caricature don't you Well I don't think it's just the real in fashion what they're gonna wear it's only really Mr that is not interested in it This person that's kind of bows and his bald head pops out of his wig or something. Yeah. Alright . Erm. Mr Mrs different roles to Mr Hardcastle Different role roles like Mrs is interested in fashion he's not and then to say to wear her housecoats and then erm her different to what Yeah she only wants Erm the subjects now then to Mr I think so. different values . . Erm different values. O K. It seems to me that and just looking at human nature something is that right? And holding them up for a little bit of erm laughter. So Mrs so far has been hogging the whole show, is that right? he's like Mrs cos they've got power really over the men the men Yeah Have they when says that he's willing to pay for erm Mrs disguises the maid, he says he's willing to pay for her services. Yes. What's the point you're making there Like showing their view, really . He's degrading himself really because he needs to find out that she was . yes, she's really Mrs . She's the same person but he treats her Yes degrading him. I think so and that's a fairly I mean it's not gonna be heavy moral point here is it but while it shows up you can treat a woman as an object in this way don't you think? will we be able to bring that into the essay Well if you want to a woman as a sexual object . this letter from erm that it kind of shows up . . Well because I she's the conqueror kind of Yes . she's the butt of the jokes . Yeah and and if and I also what I was going to say how she she kind of is able to control erm or bring out because she's bring out both his sides but erm to her father wants to sort of get rid of him, she's able to erm just erm act more charming and get them, you know, one line to prove them wrong. both sides of his character. She's his person, she both. She's not really, I don't think she's stupid cos she 's she decides to do it because she's again. So she's manipulating. Yeah she's in control of the whole situation . She's power. with her father as well. Yeah. I see O K that all sounds fine what about their comic roles. Have you discussed this I suppose we have. This kind of comic role. I mean putting on . . Yes, erm, Richard what about Constance? Well she's like, really she's just like a friend of Kate Hardcastle cos she's a woman. Yeah. She hasn't got any comedy in her, she's quite serious it's the home her say in the prologue different mentality. Yes. Her and Hastings. Yes. Her virtue is not virtue if she tumbles You're saying that erm Constance is the voice of what, high morals or really she 's Not really because she wants, doesn't want to elope with him, she wants her jewels. So she's quite scheming and erm, would you say money grabbing character? Erm . They aren't her jewels after all . Just shows you what her priorities are really rather than handsome man she'd rather have her jewels. Well have the jewels as well as a handsome man. Yes . . that's a nice little comment on human nature, isn't it?. But she's she's she doesn't want it she didn't want the jewels did she but when she nearly had them. Yeah . Erm so if they this kind of erm poking fun at previous acquired affection. Erm discussing why Alexander is, I think he has to be a bit harsh or satirical as erm. Erm Constance that she she's simply a sentimental heroine. I think she's quite powerful as well. Do you? Because erm in her her differences in her erm behaviour towards Hastings towards Tony, like she's she chases him off the stage one point Tony and then she sort of turn round and be all charming sort of . . Yeah, towards Hastings and that shows they give their two descriptions of her and Tony's Hastings they find have beautiful and they find her modest. That is what shows the two sides to her character. two different men as well. . That's quite a nice point then isn't it? She seems quite a complicated player in some ways mm There's quite a lot to talk about isn't there? We are still not sure how it's erm structural . How to organise it. Yes we turn to you. talk about talk about comedy and all that . Different levels of comedy is where they actually break it up a bit which erm Yeah. comedy the comedy of the situation language certain elements of wit or talking about the farmhouse language, farmyard. Then you talk about erm how how the characters that Constance and Kate have different sides and then you can sort of. because they are both the same age aren't they? they're both you know, young women aren't they of marriageable age and have rather different functions. sort of, sort of material. Just a bit the men and what shown through them. Yes do we have much idea of men's perception of women in the play. Yes. Very strong. and erm So what is Tony's perception of women? Don't know . . set about it's an idea or . women . O K that's quite good. They get so in other words men . have quite a rough deal on . It shows doesn't it?you may want to discuss her too Yes. as a role model Er and what about the er marital relation of the Hardcastles would you want to comment on them? Well we never really see much of them together except Erm and then again at the end. They all come . . I suppose he's got a bit of power her at the end because he makes her give the jewels back . But it's a happy marriage, isn't it? and doesn't this fit in under the idea of sentimentality again. fit in with the portrayal because Erm well insofar as he's fond of his wife and what their marriage is based on she's half the marriage isn't she despite . . You've got to make it the beginning and the end see what comes up looked it up or anything, thought erm he's showing her what the younger generation, you know, are erm treating each other isn't he in a romantic way erm there's not much romantic practice in the older generation is there, a bit more affection based on intimate knowledge of each other that sort of thing. I know very happy with them. first reject it reject it. . one about . That one. Change the slightly. conquer erm she stoops to conquer and that implies, doesn't it that women win through devious means I putting in like herself. Seemingly so. I don't think she did because she made a choice to be next to, she wanted to find out . So she She did it by herself more than anything. he's the one being humiliated not her Yeah. not her. Erm it says in the episode anyway disguise of Kate Hardcastle . would you like to add anything or shall we stop there? . Are you all actually all doing this essay, are you? Yeah. I think it's quite interesting. I was gonna say about she stoops to conquer she's also doing what's best because sh she like, knows what she wants and like that, erm and she's trying to stop her father from getting him chucked out and stuff as well. Yes. She kept saying So sort of she's yeah, she's sort of sensible and she's tactful as well, she's being tactful by diplomatic rather than strident and wanting her own way and doing it in a very obvious way. I suppose you're right, she sort of er avoiding a lot of erm friction we're going to do this anyway is a way through indirectly rather than confrontational which might be a male aggressive sort of behaviour. work out the things she does if she didn't like quite funny. she was going to win either way. She at the end as well by mentioning what he said to her as a maid. she again sort of chased through to had a rerun of the thing and the truth was revealed. Fine, well I am sure it would make quite a good essay. I am quite in agreement with that. Could we leave that one there and . Does anyone else want to er come and have a chat, how about a . . Beg your pardon. . hard. So . Yeah. an actual . . Did you say I probably made it up Did you say she stoops to conquer the play about the is an which I agree. the function of disguises and deception in . . that be as white as . . . Yeah. money, power and sex, violence . Right kick us off will you O K erm. So what number is this? Number nine. Right. Right erm function of disguise and perception class distinctions the money to sort of how she feels sort of like well bred educated That's nice . . . Right so they are Although it's that are . Really stupid they can't behave Right. meant to and that is healthy stand there . So to get the point of this so sometimes servants are the butt of humour in the play Yeah. then the when they're all parading around it's to behave, he tried to hold their hands, right. Erm the way that the so-called high class types treat them in a way showing up the high classes as well is that right? Yeah. O K . was the servant as though. Probably servants are thick, that's . and had control over Mrs with his stupid maid, whereas it's sort of reversed, cos she has power over him cos she brings out character . . is quite easy it. Giving her a second chance he having failed Yeah, but he feels that he's the one broadly . I don't believe that, erm that they could bring out that statement goes kind of. . . That sounds quite nice. Erm . So we're looking to there aren't we only relate to inferior women. Er is that truthful do you think human nature . behave think of them as less than have to doesn't it . People as a threat . Yeah . No but erm socially . Alright that sounds very very reasonable . . It was the way he was erm as well out of his way to impress them so but they just, well you might help So it's a kind of competition between them . trying to show you Sir trying to . . Right so listen, what about down relating to your social position other words you you gain credibility from who you as opposed to what you are . Yeah . . amount of money you have and that sort of thing . . Right I think you could bring it, this out sociological this to you . You won't actually look at the fact that there's a competition going on between the erm dismissing that you are actually the new keeper . ages to get into . Right so . If you'd like to just hang on a second I want to this little . Erm . . . meet Miss . so just the book on she putting forward and that right . Yeah O K erm . What are the jewels . . Erm, yeah Mrs she sort of has the power over level erm if she she sort of, it's like she's sort of keeping her on this level in the same household as her . Yeah . They're not really they're really . She wants to keep them down . . Yeah . . We have going on between them . the house . tradition . . Yeah tradition yeah . . . traditional sort of concentrates on . . he . . I can't really certain . That's against . . O K . Erm . You haven't got any smaller . . . that's all . About quarter to twelve . . . then . See how you're fixed I'll be there anyway, . Yeah . . don't worry . . Sir . Evening. . What can we do for you tonight? I'm up to get my ears syringed. Your ears? I went er for a hearing test er last week and they tell me that my left ear's a bit full up. Sit yourself down. The right one they say but the left one is Too much. So they said I had to come in and get it syringed. Mm. We'll give it a nice gentle run through. There we have it. I can do both of them tonight Bob. Aye. If you go, that's fine. Just let your head turn very slowly. That's . That's great. Ah there's not a great deal in there. There's a lot of Pardon? th there's not a great deal in this side. Some broken up bits. Last wee shot there. Were you away with this British Legion thing? I was. Right. Do this one. I, I've got a hearing aid for my right ear Mhm. you know? And I was just told me I should go up to I just needed a . Right. Just just a wee fraction. That's it. That's the angle I want now. I think, I think I'll need to see about it myself. See if I can get some money out of them. I keep hearing some weird and wonderful stories. Telling me, one of the lads was telling me there was a guy he was a cook, and he'd got sixteen hundred pounds from this. I know got three thousand. Is that right? That's true. Ah. A whole of money. Very lucky. He was too. Well if there's, if there's some wax in here it's got a good grip. I, I can hardly hear you talking . Aye. a wee look in with my, my torch for a moment. Just sit there. Well it's like concrete. It's solid. Did they give you any drops to use Bob? No. Nothing? They didn't give me anything. I I'll need to give you some drops to use in that Drops. they said that if I didn't get it done within the next fortnight it would close up . Ah. No. No. They said No. No. It's . A wee look in this side, see if you need to That one's beautiful. We've got that one completely clear. But the resin off that, that other side's terrible. It's terrible Terrible. Have yourself a good clean up. That's fine. Thirteen Quate Q U A T E. Thirteen. Here we are Bill. Next week. Tell the girls I want you to come in next Friday morning. Next Friday morning? Next Friday morning. Okay? Rightio. Thank you. Right. Cheerio now. Cheerio. Thank you Mr Chairman, ladies and gentlemen. There have been suggestions in recent years that there's a sub-group of patients with bladder cancer in whom there is a reduced likelihood of recurrence, and it may be possible in those patients to amend the follow-up protocol and omit the six and nine month check cystoscopies. Before implementing such change in our practice, we reviewed our own experience and assessed the likely impact of that change and I'll present that experience today. The paper which first drew our attention to this possibility was that of Fitzpatrick in nineteen eighty six. He looked at four fourteen patients, with well differentiated on the basis of tumours, and found that both number of tumours and size of tumours were significant in determining the likelihood of recurrence. He also found that pati eighty percent of patients who had a negative three month cystoscopy never had another recurrence in the remainder of their follow up. Conversely, only ten percent of patients who had recurrence at that three month cystoscopy went on to have no further recurrence in the remainder of the follow up. Several other ones issue in a number of different ways. Palmer looked at three hundred and five patients, in an M R C study, and from a multivariate analysis, he found the number of tumours from that diagnosis was the single most feature. The size and the result of the three month check cystoscopy were also of considerable importance. Morgan in nineteen ninety one took a hundred and seventy patients again found the number of tumours at diagnosis to be most important. Then he looked specifically at the effect of the results of the three month or si six month cystoscopies, but they did note that only those pa only those patients who had recurrence in the first year went on to progressive stage. And the final paper of, of these. Prout in nineteen ninety two a hundred and seventy patients and again found the number of tumours the most important feature. The size was also important, but only in those patients who had single tumours at presentation. Despite these, this data, there seems to be little evidence yet of any change in common practice of three month check cystoscopies in the first year, six monthly in the second year, and yearly checks thereafter. The papers I've mentioned did make some suggestions, in particular Palmer, in his paper recommended that if the patient had a single tumour presentation and a negative three month cystoscopy, then subsequent cystoscopy could be performed yearly. Kent performed a mathematical analysis to determine the optimum follow up erm regime, and for patients with well differentiated non-invasive tumours, and no recurrence in the first year, he recommended a nine monthly regime. And finally Morgan, looking again at solitary well differentiated tumours, suggested a regime similar to that of Palmer's, namely missing out two or three of the check cystoscopies in the first year. We felt from this that there was, there was reasonable evidence to introduce this programme into our practice, and we, we looked at our patients erm at and , and we looked at all patients who'd had moderately or well-differentiated transition cell carcinoma of the bladder at diagnosis, a non-invasive tumour, small, solitary, with a minimum follow up of one year. We didn't routinely measure or weigh our bladder tumours over this time, erm we have excluded any patient, any patient where the weight was recorded to be over ten grammes, and similarly any patient wh where it was recorded that the diameter was greater than three centimetres. And we've also excluded those patients where the surgeon recorded that it was a large, extensive tumour. We excluded patients with carcinoma sutch or tumours at diagnosis. We divided our patients into three groups, depending on the results of the three month check cystoscopy. Group one had no recurrence at the three months. Group two had recurrence at the site of the original tumour, and group three had recurrence elsewhere in the bladder. We calculated the recurrence rate using the formula here, the number of cystoscopies at which recurrences were found divided the total length of follow up in months, and multiplied by a hundred to produce a convenient figure. And this is what we found. We identified a hundred and forty one patients who fitted the criteria at the diagnosis. The mean age was sixty three, and the male to female ratio was approximately three to one. The maximum length of follow up was twenty six years. Group one, which is the patients we're particularly interested in, there are ninety two patients here, and eighty percent of them, seventy four patients, had no recurrence in the first year. There were eighteen patients who had recurrence, twenty percent of patients who did have recurrence in the first year, and we've subdivided those, labelling seven patients protocol violators. These were patients who missed the one or more check cystoscopies in that first year, and went on to have recurrence when they were next cystoscopied. The mean recurrence rate for this group overall was one point nine five. There were forty nine patients who had recurrences at, at the three month cystoscopy. Erm and the recurrence rates were considerably increased at eight point one and nine point three. And this does tend to add weight to the suggestion that the result of the three month cystoscopy is a good guide to the likelihood of developing recurrence. Looking at recurrences a little closer, of the eighteen patients, fifty percent only had a solitary recurrence in that first year, and no patient had more than four recurrences. Of the protocol violators, those seven patients who missed out a cystoscopy and then had recurrences, six have only had occasional recurrences during the remainder of their follow up, and one required chemotherapy four years from diagnosis, when he developed multiple superficial recurrences. If we implemented this protocol on these patients, we would certainly be leaving these eighteen patients with small tumours in their bladder for several months longer than would previously have been the case. Now we don't know the long term effect of that, but the experience with the protocol violators suggests that they won't come to any great harm, but obviously the number is small. One patient in the whole series went on erm to progress to muscle invasive disease. He was in group three. That is, he had tumour elsewhere in the bladder at his three month cystoscopy, and no patient has died of bladder cancer from these hundred and forty one patients. To summarize, for a well flagged group of patients, with small solitary non-invasive transition cell carcinomas at d at diagnosis, and negative three month cystoscopy, we found eighty percent of our patients would certainly have come to no harm at all if their second cystoscopy had been one year from diagnosis. Twenty percent of our patients would have had recurrence in that year, but on the basis of our experience, we think it unlikely they would have come to any great harm, as a result of having their cystoscopy delayed, and we would recommend this protocol to the management of superficial bladder cancer. Thank you. Thank you. I think what we should do, as we've got two papers on similar topics, is er take any questions that are specifically related to the t to this paper and the, the methods used in this paper, and then after the next paper have, have both speakers up to address the topic er of er of timing of follow up cystoscopies. Are there any questions now that we would like to ask? light on the auditorium. Dazzle us a little less, so that we can see . Right. Can I just ask you, your protocol violators who Mm. should have come back but didn't, Yes. did any of them have symptoms during that time when they had recurrences, that brought them back? I don't think they did, no. No. They all just came back for a regular routine follow up, just a little bit late. Right. Well, let's assume you're saving the questions for after the second paper. Shall we now move on to er the next paper, The Better Use of a Check Cystoscopy , by Steve . These are questions that I'd like to ask you from what you've told me so far, erm, I'd like to ask you Mr about erm, from your point of view, from your erm experience with the electrical Yeah business about light fittings. I like to ask you both about your experience of moving into Harlow and of living in this house, which is a totally separate set of questions Mm, mm erm, why I suppose that's two completely different questions and I'd like to ask you from your point of view, from your point of view I don't think there's a very great deal in the way of er lighting fittings one can talk about erm in houses in Harlow, it's er, there's a, a distinct difference between the light, a lot, lot of architects in, in Harlow have lived in Harlow you see and they will go in for all the very latest type of lighting fittings erm and because they have er access to the books for the various er designers of lighting fittings er, generally though, they, the majority of the people in the town er have come from er London boroughs and erm they view the same kind of lighting fittings they've always been used to. I mean when I started with a shop in Harlow what, erm, nearly twenty five Thirty nearly thirty years ago, erm, we used to sell the old glass bowl fitting on er three chains, hanging from the ceiling and that, and I used to buy those in a crate of about fifty at a time, and er most of the houses had two lighting points in the lounge anyway so, and they'd always wanted a pair and we used to have them in the shop on a display so that about eight of them could all be lit up at once and people could see them and if they didn't like those then the, we could always put another one under the set if we'd got one in a certain colour, we could hang one of those up and er they could look at that and see what it looked like. Can I go back and ask you two questions. One, what were the differences when you say that they chose them, so even though the basic shape was the same there were obviously some, there were some variations? Oh yes, erm I think it was generally, er, they had to match the colouring of the rooms that they'd got, the furniture they'd got really because as far as the room was concerned er when, when the, new houses came onto the erm, ready for occupation, er they were all cream coloured inside and anyway and pale cream so they, they'd got er any choice they wanted there it, really it was just to match their curtains, match their carpets, all their furnishings and erm, of course I suppose they, the rose coloured ones er went better than say the lemon coloured one and that because er people just er liked the idea of moving into a place that's got a nice cosy glow in it, place sort of thing, but we never sell any at all, there's, none of that type of fitting in, sold now. When do you think that that erm stopped being popular? Oh I, I should think that about fifteen years ago er when erm the lighting manufacturers had decided that er there was a great deal more available in lighting than just the erm, type of glass bowls and shades that had been used, well in between the wars er, I mean after the war was over in nineteen forty six er they were still using the same things that they did before the war and this just carried on er and er it, it only within the last what I suppose fifty years that's over In the late sixties Yes people were still using these sort of light fittings? oh yes, yes, erm it's very difficult to say I think when it actually exactly fades out, it would be, it would be fifteen years ago anyway, er when one used to find that there, there were no more of these being bought at all Yes and apart from you, you mention lemon and rose, what other colours were there, can you remember? Oh yeah, you'd, some people would go for some very awkward colours, er green, which is a terrible colour, blue which is another awkward colour, I mean I even get people today asking for blue lamps for their bedrooms, erm I'm sure they can't read in bed at that rate er, erm, it's an awful colour to use erm and er I suppose Orange yes, any colour you can think of, I mean erm, blue I think is one of the worse, but thinking of lampshades we used to sell a lot of er lampshades for putting on table lamps er and erm, we'd have just about every colour and somebody would come along and say well erm haven't you got one in purple and of course I'd refrain from saying thank god no I haven't erm, and er, sometimes even pleased to say well I'll try to get you in purple, but er, nowadays erm, we, we don't go in for that because there's, there's so many er shops now that selling lighting fittings erm and selling nothing else, there isn't one actually in Harlow, but there's one in Epping and there's one in Stortford, erm that er, it's, it's riding a new car people want to see er a good variety of them, have a look at a lot or a washing machine or anything like that, you want to see many before you buy one. But, but in the fifties you were probably one of the only shops in Harlow that sold Oh yes at one time erm after the New Town got well started, after The Stow was built got to the, goes up to The Stow and be beyond er, well it's just, going on into erm, er, towards the swimming bath, it wasn't up there, swimming bath, erm and we used to call it the Shady Shop in, in adverts and er we used to have a lot of people used to come down because there was only The Stow then and er And you had your shop we in The Stow? Oh no, no way, my shop's in Old Harlow always has been It's always been Oh yes, yes, erm the er, no I, I suppose when The Stow first started we When you saying, you saying that people had two points in their lounge Yes, it was, yes, yes was this an open plan Er sitting and dining area? yes, well I don't know, I suppose that nearly all er the houses in Harlow you could say are open planned now, you know had a, had er, a, kitchen dining area that we have, erm or erm lounge, diner, erm they haven't gone in, in this, the ordinary houses, they haven't gone in for building Can I go back to, I know I keep on harping back, but this about the actual designs of the light fittings, erm you've told me that erm invariably the ceiling er lighting position was fixed by, being in the centre unless it was an open plan Yeah with the dining room at one end and a sitting room at the other in which case you had two light, ceiling light Yes, that's right , yes erm and that the number of sockets changed Yes it started off at er twelve sockets in these house and that er, it must of gone down to about er eight sockets in some houses. And when you say these houses, the, the number of rooms and that in those sort of houses would be how many? Well again er, er a three bedroomed house, I would, you see and they were putting one plug in, in, in each, each bedroom and, and two plugs in the main bedroom so they dropped one down altogether and erm, erm in a lounge like this to put two plugs in, sort of one in that corner and one in that corner it's no good to anybody, it's, as much as anything else was er, er about placing plugs as well er, if one's only going to have two plugs well then least one should be able to place them in, in the right positions, er putting them behind doors is, is, is no good at all, a lot of them have been done that way because the it always means flex is going to be draped across the, the door if people are walking in gonna trip over it and erm, they probably got down to now, something er just less than the standard I would think in the, in the last houses they built. Did they put double ones in or just single sockets? Well only in the last er two years I would think, perhaps two and a half years er had they really started putting double plugs in everywhere instead of single plugs How many of, erm, did you ever come across a house with only one socket in a living room? In a living room, no, no Always at least two? Two yes, at Potter Street there was erm, er houses built with two plugs in and that really wasn't any good at all and that was in erm a living room where there would be er, a dining living room as well Yes because the kitchen wasn't large enough and er, and the two plugs in the kitchen as well and that's just not good enough Yes for me Can we go back to the, very quickly to, er to the review of the design of the light fittings in the fifties and sixties, you mentioned the pleated paper ones which were close to the ceiling Yes plastic ones which were close to the ceiling, can you, could you give me a bit more of a description of that or perhaps a manufacturer's name? Well, I, I think that probably erm, when we started out, er, it again after the war, in this country, they erm, the lighting manufacturers never got round to it, there are too many er, there's, there was too much call for er lighting in offices, shops, schools and that sort of thing and er, so a lot of the idea did come from abroad at first, the er Fin shades they were made in Finland they were the paper pleated ones, er, most of them, no, no not most of them, a lot of them fitted er close up onto the ceiling where they're intended for centre lights and were held up onto the ceiling with a little spring, erm, they also did some quite nice pleated paper shades, er at a time when you find that most electrical shops were, would have er the old type of erm what is it, imitation silk shades with fringes round them, er fringe at the top and fringe at the bottom and so on sort of thing, when the, when those was sort of old of age everywhere, it was just the same as it'd been before the war, er it was, you know, quite right really to see these all in different colours, completely plain, but pleated shades but in just one particular colour each shade. Was the inside of the shade white or did it, did the light glow through and The glow through, er yes the paper was erm, was the same colour all the way through and er, and erm they had quite an impact, but of course they, would only last a year or two er and er they started a small factory in London and, erm call it Hula-Hoops I think er, I don't know whether Hula-Hoops came from the lighting shades or the lighting shades from the Hula-Hoops, but it was the same process that made them both and er this was erm thin plastic tubing brightly coloured, er which was er cemented together into er Sponge er beehive shapes and er Yeah Round and erm circular shapes, that sort of thing. Like hanging lanterns? Yes Yes, yes they were very attractive actually They were very attractive and they did have the advantage that you could take them down and plunge the whole thing in water and wash it and er And they were popular a lot of people bought them Oh yes, yeah Oh yes, yes sold an awful lot of them there must of been a thousand thousands sold of this, done I should think Mm and erm then some of the people like er er in London started out erm making shades or er fittings which were erm quite at home in the house er or in the office and erm these were, well that is one design of them the wall back is to match you see, er but you could equally er, put those into erm hotel bedroom or something or er hotel lounge somewhere there, erm or you can get them large with more lamps in them I think and all sorts of new designs were coming out mainly in, in plastic er and erm That er they also brought out some a good range of lighting fittings er, which you still see about again used well I, I remember putting one, you saying about putting lights at different levels, erm a staircase which was in a new house which was architect design and built and erm, the staircase was er more or less centrally in the house rather than be stuck against one wall and so it had a well and down the centre of the well we strung one of these lights with er five different glasses suspended on black flex five black flexes and erm these were shades made of heavy glass er the glass wasn't painted it was coloured all the way through, er and erm they were called er Chelsea, Chelsea glasswork and erm these each had a lamp inside them well er about three inch diameter cylinders actually about eight inches long and they were hung at different heights er so that the lip behind the staircase and also of course there's a staircase being where it was, it was in the centre of er, a, quite a large hallway for modern stand for modern standards and erm it of course was a feature of the hall as well. So it became not only erm practical thing but the light fitting became a decorative Oh yeah, yeah Oh very much so Do you think that there was a changeover from being practical, I mean can you remember seeing that transition from the very practical shade to the, to, to the light fitting becoming something decorative? Oh I think that occurred about erm, I mean now the, the trend is for long erm chromium stems you know with lights coming out of all different angles and they are very decorative in a very modern house and that will be But do you think that in the fifties already this sort of trend was something I don't think so , I think this is I think this is more in the sixties really this is in the sixties erm seventies, sixties, seventies fifties , all I can remember there was an all very stolid erm, people didn't know where they were yet, and erm, it er I, I I was so it was still in the sixties, they call it the swinging sixties, I mean I didn't see anything swinging in the sixties at all, I didn't think it was swinging, but er and they don't like now the swinging sixties and I think really it was then that er people did er branch out to new ideas. These Rotaflex ones that you spoke of, were they in the fifties or the early sixties? Early sixties Yes I see Oh no in the, in the fifties we were on the erm, the glass bowl fittings, yes On the glass bowl fittings Yes , yes, do you think that one of the reasons that they, that they became less popular apart from fashion was that, that they, erm wo that, that you had, the way that you cleaned them, that they caught the dust or Oh no Well that , that could be an idea but I think people would put up with that I, I think it was just because they were, then old fashioned. When you say glass bowl, do you mean like the gold fish bowl? That was Like, yes, the gold fish bowl on chains, they're hanging down on chains No it, it they hang on three chains er and er s s some of them yeah, about that shape sort of thing you see, like that Yes, yes , did they have a kind of marbled Yes, yes all sorts of different things, all Oh yes, marbled, painted and all sorts of things on them, yeah We used to get them by the, twenty at a time all sorts of, because people just absolutely loved So when people first moved in they these things Yes, was it because you think that, they, that's what they had for in the house Oh yes that's what they remembered, yes, yes They would remember from London you see er and erm, I, I think that er most people are erm Dougal you have made a smell you are a naughty boy Er, I think most people now are influenced really by what they know at home er, and erm, today, yet that today they're, they're far more er adventurous and they're far more prepared, prepared to erm try out new ideas and see what they like Mm although we did notice, I mean, it and this will be during the er sixties anyway that erm, er the various new types of fittings that came out on er several of the London manufacturers were erm stepped up really weren't they you know Oh yes, yes the adjustable types of fittings and er, and in, it all really led up to what people are going for now in, in their houses, they want spotlights, erm clipped on, screwed on the ceiling, screwed on the walls er Eye ball fittings in the ceilings all this sort of thing you see all that sort of thing And that's what we're selling more of now than anything else er and I, I think it's quite a good idea really, light up the things that you like in the house, er and erm, not the things you don't like. Do you think that the idea of a adjustability er you say that they were snapped up, do you think that people actually once they get an adjustable light fitting, do you think that they actually adjust it? Do you think that they move it around? Or do you Oh I , I would think so Some do, er the rise and fall type of fitting over a dining table where when you're er, er having dinner you'd have erm it down to about what not more than twelve inches above the table er so that it lit the table but didn't shine in your eyes, erm some people leave it like that all the time, other people having had a meal lift er it up, erm I think the main thing about the, er adjustable fly and fall is that erm, it's there for, as you want it, if you're trying to find a meal you've lost on the floor well then you pull it down to floor level really. When in, when you had the erm, you put your ceiling lights on Yes in the erm living room, or dining lounge, what other light fittings did people buy apart from that, if they did at all? Oh, usually er for bedrooms er they, they would have erm Bedside lights decorated type of shades, erm usually nowadays in, in plastic but erm But I mean in the actual downstairs, in the living room Did have table lamps Table lamps Yes, I mean Standard lamps? Oh aye, in the early days, yes, standard Not much in the way of floor standards now, erm I don't think there's many floor standards sold nowadays But I mean in the fifties, sixties but, we, oh we used to sell a lot of floor standard Oh in the fifties yes, yes, oh yes Yes wooden ones yes, yes, yes With large you know large shades on them Traditional or again modern? Er well both, mainly traditional turned wood Oh mainly traditional, turned wood of yes or and then we used to have some gorgeous lamps that er we used to get in Chelsea that it was fasten on the wall and the lamp would come over on the shade, down and completely change, do you remember that? Oh yes, yes That sounds like a modern one Very modern, yes And those were bought and Oh very much so, yes, this was in the sixties, sixties, seventies Can you remember the make of that, like? Oh blimey we used to go to Chelsea and buy them Those, no, no, no I think the one you're thinking of, the brass tube It was a brass tube made by the same people who made that one there actually that was then that's then Yes I think it was that's right, yes cos it's just got another shade on it It came up on the wall like that and had a big wooden block fastened to the wall that block That's right, yeah so you could pull it up and down and the effects went out the bottom of the tube, the tube came up like that and it came over, and like that and then the shade would be like that and then you could swing it round Swing it round Yes Did you , did you get any ideas from the Design Centre about what fittings to buy? Oh yes we used to go to the Design Centre, yes Oh yes we used to go to the Design Centre at Haymarket er and erm, see what they had and see what was going, yes It sounds as if you were both involved in the shop? Oh yeah Yes, yes, yes. Excuse me I get a Polo Mint I was going to say shall I make, would you like a cup of coffee? Now please tell me if I'm keeping you, I know I've been here for a very long time No, are you, are you worried about your time because That, that they have garages Excuse me and outside the porches, to light their number up outside their house, erm people don't seem to have erm, really changed their ideas very much, we still sell the same type of fitting to people, er the one that goes over the garage doors, on the corner of the, of the house wall, er lanterns er outside the front door with coloured glass in them er things that have been going for Come on sweety forty, fifty years really come on Do you think that there's a fashion in light fittings, I mean you've noticed the change There's a definite fashion of yes, yes, the only thing is, is that people are not erm, er religious bound by the fashion, they don't, sort of say like well I think we'll have to change our porch light it looks old fashioned compared to the one next door, erm What about in lounges? In lounges? Well again I, I, I think that er, wall lighting is a, is a thing Now? er now Mm and really always has been, erm, the idea of a centre is, is simply because you consider how much it costs to have a point wired when the house is, is built, er several people nowadays is ha well they buy an old house, they erm, say well we'll take out the centre light and put us in some wall lights instead you see. But as far as the Harlow Corporation Housing are concerned mostly They never put in any wall lights in at all Well when you say wall lights do you mean brackets wall brackets? These, yeah, yeah, yeah Yes yes, we, we put those in there you see Yes very soon after we got here, but er the Corporation never put any wall light in houses did you ever have a desire of er a wall bracket where you didn't have to chase in the flex that it actually ran up from er a socket in the wall? Oh yes, yes, er we've got one upstairs in one of the bedrooms now. Did, were they popular? Erm I, I can't say that we sold a lot of them I, I, and I haven't seen a lot about at all, er it's a very good idea I mean two, there's mainly two different types, one that was held up by pins which was, was quite good er and erm and there was another one which was held up by erm a pin which ran, which the flex ran through, a stud rather than a, a pin and er two little black legs on it, was very good. Can you remember the make of that? Er, oh that particular one was one of erm I don't know if they've even got a lighting showroom in London now, er Do you have any of their old catalogues, have you kept any old catalogues? Er lighting I think I've got some old lighting catalogues, yes Because I would be very interested to photograph some of them if I may? Oh yeah, yeah, mm, mm, mm, mm, yeah, erm, yes I've got quite a lot of catalogues really I Do you have any the trouble is not having enough modern catalogues of, of things that you can actually buy today because when they manufacturer them now they don't erm make catalogues as often as they used to do er, it costs so much money in it I'd er, I, I think that probably the next trend is going to be in lighting fittings er which will take in er you er, low energy lamps er, at the erm, the new fluorescent lamps er where erm, well there's one in the hall which takes eight watts and it's given us as much light out as a hundred watt lamp, er and And it uses less power? Yes, it uses eight watts against a hundred, well I say probably against seventy five, eight watts instead of seventy five and given us the same amount of light out. Are people concerned about erm saving on the electricity bill? I think everybody now I mean from the lighting point of view as opposed to things like heating and obviously more expensive consumption. Er, well certainly erm as far as erm er, obviously as industry's concerned they're extremely worried about it But what about in houses? In houses I don't think that people, er worry much about, about that erm Do , do you think they used to in the fifties? I think they didn't like a lot of bright light in the house in the fifties, er and of course before that and er now that people they've got such good lighting in the offices where they work that they feel that, well they can't bear to poor lighting at home and yet there are still people who will watch a colour television with er no lights on in the room at all Really? Yes, next do , er which I think is terrible I mean er it's enough to make one Because it's not necessary any more with er modern televisions is it? Oh no, no, it's not necessary no, no, we have all these lights on just like this and we Yes when that's on well it's not necessary Yeah Mm Oh no, there's no need to have it in the dark, you can see alright with it. When you spoke about the colour shades Yes erm, the coloured pleated shades that came from Yes can you remember the, the colours that they were in? Oh er, usually pale er, pale pink er again the ever cream colour which seem to, you could of painted the fifties with cream I think, erm and erm pale blue, powder blue colour er, they were all pale colours, er pale yellow or an amber colour, they had to be pale otherwise they wouldn't let the light through Mm erm, it's only in, in things like the Chelsea glassware er of where you could really get, really strong colours er because of the thickness of the glass that they used Mm er and erm the fact that the colour was in the glass not on the glass. When people came in to choose a light fitting, how often do you think that they considered what they wanted the light for, or whether they liked, or whether they choose it because they liked the style of the design of the light fitting? I think that generally they came in because they liked the style erm they, they, usually had er, in their minds what they wanted and because they go round and see all these fittings at night, I mean our shop used to be all the fittings were lit up at night so that you could have a look in, erm it's very confusing I think when you, you've got an awful lot of fittings in, in, in a shop and, and all of them lit, decide which one's gonna to be the best for your house, but I think most of them already had ideas what, what sort of fitting they wanted and of course we used to do a great deal of Could you put down getting fittings especially for people, it I'm gonna put this chair for you because I'm sure you thank you Do sit on my Yes this is better A little high there Then I, I er seen fittings in er, in a friend's house or they'd seen them in the erm Dougy stop it glossy magazines, of course Did they ever say to you I don't want a diffused light I want a direct light? Mm, well, yes then I should put them off it, erm But I mean did they, did they have specific, erm did they, did they have that kind of idea about the type of light they wanted or Sugar Dougy, come here did they, or did they just like, did they just look at the colour and the shape of it, and the style of it? Oh I, I think one had to consider erm, I, I'd have to ask them the size of the room, what, what sort of a room it was, er, it was no use getting the fitting which erm was either far too big for the room in it's, in it's physical size Mm, mm or perhaps which er wouldn't give up, wouldn't give out enough light Mm erm otherwise you'll Do you take sugar? I do yes please They'll be soon back again How much? One please Just one? Yes It's a very small spoon Thank you , that's fine Have a biscuit or not? I will thank you. This'll be very hot I expect It is Mm fairly and I'm sorry if Dougy's a but it's one of his great problems No don't worry really I'm used to animals it's okay Good Erm, it interests me very much how people choose er not only in light fitting, but how you choose furniture and they choose designs generally, because I have a theory that er a lot of people don't consider the practical things, maybe as much as you know like you or me when we're conscience of that sort of thing Yes quite, yes No, cold , er one example of that is for instance erm an Anglepoise lamp Yes a standard Anglepoise lamp er which it's been going for a number of years, you can get it in about six different colours to match different designs of, er put colour into your room, now if somebody was spending a lot of time sitting knitting and has to look at the knitting or has to look at the pattern then er a good strong light which won't get in their eyes but goes straight on to what, whatever they're doing, is by far the best thing for them, er but they say oh I don't like it, it's a bit angular isn't it, erm, modern sort of thing, er but because it's angular it doesn't mean to say it's not gonna fit into the room it's the right thing for it, er for the person doing that work. Do you think it's because it doesn't look domestic enough maybe it looks a bit industrial or Yes I think if it had a few I think so, mm, mm if it had a few twists and curls round it and little things like that and bits of gold plate on it I mean that they'd go for it, but er, because it's made for its purpose and don't want it. Yes, mm And yet we always do sell them, er we always have Anglepoise lamps in the shop I've still got this one, thank you Do you want We're about the only people in, in Harlow that do sell the Anglepoise lamps Yes Yeah, now they've become very erm, there's nothing exciting in the lighting shops in Harlow now, at all. Do you think that designs in the fifties and sixties that there was more variety? Oh there was a tremendous variety, but then there were all the same in, erm you look at the er the three light fitting er it hangs down from the ceiling and has three branches out from it and it either has three lights hanging down or three hanging upwards, er with four ordinary bulbs in or candle bulbs in and shades, sometimes they have four, erm, there's still an awful lot of those about and any lighting shop you look in you'll still see plenty of those er and yet they've got a tremendous number of disadvantages, one thing, a lot of them got glass shades, if you break one shade three year's time you might as well throw away the fitting because you can't get another one er, and erm it's a design that doesn't, it doesn't lend itself to giving a good lighting in a room at all er, it they, they harsh glassware, the edges of the glass during all round the room and that sort of thing Mm doesn't help I think that erm plastic erm, er the new plastics erm always give much more scope to lighting fittings, erm than the, the glass in the past but erm Well erm from, from my observation of catalogues and I was just looking through the other day, lighting doesn't alter very much, there's nothing very impressive in any of the catalogues really No but on the other hand you can look back and you can see all the things that have gone, I mean the for instance which er Oh yeah , mm somebody bought in large quantities er in Finland and started making up in a factory in Harlow erm, at one time, erm, they're all a bit I think that period was nice Yes a lot of those about er, and, erm also the Rotaflex shades Mm er Mm and erm, a lot of the types of fittings and single pendants with heavy coloured glasses on and things like that Mm, I liked those they were, they were all, all going, people had them, but er you don't see them nowadays No, it's gone quiet do you Mm know there doesn't seem to be any er great enthusiasm for new designs at the moment. Do you think that the spotlights have Yes I think so taken over? Oh yeah, yeah The modern part of the yeah people have seen them at the discos and, will do, and er even, even those that gives patterns or designs people are buying, have in the house now instead of watching television, sit and watch the pattern on the wall er, but erm Oh no Oh yes they're, they're old, they're going down as well, yes, mm I couldn't bear it No, but er, I don't know people, it's, it's where people get their ideas from I think for a start, I know one time we used to sell oh a lot of erm spotlights and spotlamps, but only to people who were running discos, er now erm there are people who erm, well they, they want a, a couple in the lounge or something like that or, and er, and then of course they, there's others who erm have them outside and light up their trees, at night. Well a lot of people now, a lot, I mean I've known several, they put er lamps underneath plants to make, it's very effective that Mm I like it Mm if you have some nice if it's got a nice autumn weather of course Rosie it can sit outside and No, I mean them indoor, indoor plants David Oh indoor plants, oh Yeah mm, mm, yes. Could you tell me a little bit about when you first moved to Harlow, because it interests me very much the fact, I didn't, I wasn't aware that you lived in a, house that was Well I came built by the Corporation Mm, I came to Harlow with my parents, when my husband was in the Air Force During the war? Mm and we moved from Sussex, here The last one of course Pardon? The last one The last one, yes The last one , not the great one and er, it was bad enough the, the last one, erm, and I started with the Corporation when they opened at Turlings in that, that was in nineteen forty eight Oh yes well I mean, I, I, I came back from the war Aye, so of course erm then we were living with your parents weren't we? my husband and yes, just a minute , my husband arrived home from the war in nineteen forty eight I think it was or was it nineteen forty seven? Good lord no, it was nineteen forty six ,a er March nineteen forty six Mm, beg your pardon the war ended in forty five you know Yeah forty six I thought that was bad enough having to stay another year Anyway, forty six and then we had no house, at all, because my mother had died and my father, we said to my father you leave if you want to we should be alright we'll find somewhere to go and we didn't and we had to have a Nissan hut for about a year, supplied by the Council It was accommodated by the soldiers before wasn't it? which had been occupied by soldiers, this was our first hut, well by then I was working for the Corporation and of course by virtue of my job with the chief architect I got this house and we were offered this house about two years later for two thousand pounds and we said oh we wouldn't be staying here for more than ten years in any case and we wouldn't be bothered to buy it, but then my husband started in business you see soon after he came back and we eventually got the shop and, of course it's very convenient because we're only a stone's throw from the shop you see, so we stayed here You say it was and eventually we bought it And this was the first group of houses This was the first of development of houses First of the houses first of the houses that the Corporation built Yeah there were , there were a hundred here actually, there's now a hundred and fourteen What year were they completed? Er Forty nine? well this, no, fifty one, er this was the last house to be completed on this estate because it had been used as a paint store and we were the very last people Apart from those on the far side of the road which were built several years later on on another complex Oh yes later, yes that's true, yes Out of the original hundred houses this was the last one to be occupied and we saw this being built, erm right from the time that it was a plot of land and we knew it was ours Brick by brick, we knew it was ours er from, from the footings in other words so I was from that, it was quite interesting really And hundreds of people, architects, all this development here, this hundred houses were mainly architects or engineers from the Corporation Who? Who? who lived in these house plus I should think about Million workers ten per cent of building workers and er about five per cent of British hired mechanic staff. It was a mixed development? It was a mixed development with very much the emphasis on Corporation staff at that time er and of course they had to house the, got house But they had to house you didn't they? the staff somewhere and we, we came in here and of course most of the people eventually had families and er they moved out to bigger accommodation as their families grew up, you know, er, we were very pleased to get the house of course because we'd we'd lived in this Nissan hut for er either one or two years but it did Don't know very difficult to tell the time now how er, how long these things were Not er but er, I know it was forty six that I er came back Came back because that was the year that I, I actually started the business because erm That's right, mm in er, we had a cutting somewhere Marie, oh I know when we became a limited company, er that's right and er we put in erm formally erm er take over the business Patent run by That's right er since nineteen forty six or something I don't know the date exactly That's right, mm quite, mm and er that's how I remember it by except for of course the war ended in nineteen forty five but weren't But when we we weren't the first to come back or anything You're interested in the furniture side of it? Yes I am Well when we came here of course we had certain furniture and we just sort of er, er and we, I don't know what other people did, we just erm furnished a room at a time until we got We furnished two rooms when we got in We furnished two rooms when we came in here that was the one bedroom and er and it was this room some what and er, we never have had any hire purchase arrangements Yeah but I rather gather large people would get everything you see Yes exactly but we didn't you see, we didn't, we just got things as we went on and of course in those days, it was, what was it called? Erm tt furniture er Furniture that what it were called you know, erm, mm What the manufacturer? No, no the erm tt deary me The hire purchase? No, erm, that the in the war time the soldiers Utility Utility furniture, I couldn't think of the word Did you have utility furniture? No we didn't because I had bought various things, I like antiques so does my husband, I'd bought various things while he was away in this erm, the card table and er, I had a new place of stuff, er but since we've been, but we had odd chairs didn't we? Er Oh yeah but all of which are gone and we've replaced them with these since many, you know, quite a few years ago, er we bought one utility suite from an engineer who was going to Rhodesia and that's in our second bedroom still it's, well the bed is but the The bedroom suite? The bedroom suite, yes, the bed's still there, but er, we changed the erm dressing table and the rest of it I think there's only , there's only the bed there left now there's only the bed there left Oh yeah cos we've, we've erm, apart from the antiques we've, we've refurnished everything er at least once since we've had it Just once, yes and yes, er our bedroom of course is Refurnished completely refurnished, er and the dining room's refurnished You have a dining room? yes you can have a look, it'll be interesting for you I would be, yes in seeing this house, because it's, well we think it's rather nice er, you know it's quite a It's got a good long garden with this as well It's got a long garden more than sixty feet long and erm over the last two or three years er I've made a patio at the bottom, right the whole width of the garden Mm and er eighteen feet wide so that you can get a dozen down there seated if necessary, you know, yeah Really? looking very pleasant Right I think so, I'll check it again in a minute just to make sure. It's a complicated piece of apparatus Well the last time I came you told me Well we got married in nineteen forty one and I lived first of all in Sussex where erm my mother was living because my husband went into the Air Force and he was erm away for five years, well we had a lot of bombing in the early part of the war in Sussex and my father eventually came here to Harlow thinking we were getting away from it and of course we came right into the V er what was it? What was it called? The V bomb, V bombers and the doodlebugs and er when he came home it was nineteen forty six I think or seven er, my fath er my mother had died and my father wanted to get away from the place we were in and we said oh well go ahead you know, we'll easily get somewhere and of course we didn't and they put us in a Nissan hut, which we made absolutely beautiful, we did all sorts of things to it and had a lovely garden all around it and the people from the Council use to come around and say to us oh well you don't need to be rehoused because you've made this so very nice you see, anyway I then started to work for the Corporation and then there was the possibility of course of me getting a house. Could I ask you to go back and ask you to describe what the Nissan hut was like, what kind of a accommodation did you have in it? What, well, we had a very large sitting dining room where we put er our dining room furniture at one end and as, the sitting room furniture at the other, it was very large actually, a Nissan hut doesn't look very big, but it is quite big and we had one large bedroom where we got all our furniture in there and then there was er a kitchen, and there was an Elsan lavatory in the garden which er you had to go outside for that, and er, we bought a full length galvanized bath like an ordinary bath upstairs and there was a boiler in the kitchen so we used to light the fire of the boiler, fill the boiler with water from the tap, we had a, oh we had all sorts of er innovations that made life easy as could be in the circumstances, we had er hose pipe from the kitchen sink into the bathroom, we managed to get about three baths a week, cos it, it was a terrible fag, but we did, and then you just emptied the bath out and out in the drain outside you know. So you had to pick it up and carry it outside? Well we had to drag it and Yes till we got to near the den and do that and we spent er a year and a half there and all the time we were watching this house being built, because I was working at the Corporation and the number of people of the Corporation from the tea boy cadet down came up to see this, this and that, was nobody's business, mm, without, we enjoyed it, it was quite funny really it is Were there many Nissan huts in, in the same Yes there were , there were about ten I think, but they were all widely separated, we all had a lot of ground around us, so,s so you weren't on top of your next door neighbour, you didn't, you hardly see them, or hear them really, there was plenty of room. And apart from the garden that you said that you made it lovely while you were there, what other things did you do to make it look like a home? Well for instance a lot of people didn't even bother to erm make the kitchen floor into anything reasonable, but we did, we, we got some very good, very heavy and put it down, it, on the kitchen floor of this place, and in the, our sitting room we had a carpet it was er a carpet of David's mother's actually, but it covered the entire sitting room and it looked rather nice you know, because it was a big room and we also had a carpet of sorts in the bedroom. And did you buy new furniture when you Oh no , no I'd, I had a new case of furniture, I had some of this furniture there. Antique furniture? Antique furniture, yes, erm, because I'd bought that during the war in various antique places, you know, and erm, what did we buy, no I think my father gave us the bedroom furniture was, which was at the at the time and we took that with us, which was an old fashioned, a really old Victorian suite which we got rid of when we moved into this house. So you didn't buy any utility furniture? So we didn't buy very, little utility furniture, the only utility furniture we've got is, it used to be a bedroom suite up in that second bedroom, we've still got the bed of that, that was utility, but had we been in the market we would of bought utility because it was very good, some of it was really good if you looked around and erm, you know, choose your furniture, it was very good Could you tell me a bit more about that, because I don't know anything at all about utility furniture About utility furniture , well you know the G Plans that now that there is, well this utility furniture to my mind if you choose really good makes of your utility furniture it was rather, after the style I would say G Plan, that was I've always imagined it were, it was good quality of, of a price that people could afford, if you got the right erm, type of stuff. So there was a difference in quality between one make I would think so, yes I think, I would think so because the bedroom suite, the bed upstairs er of that er suite is quite a good quality bed, you know, it's only a spring mattress of course it's not a, it's not a box thing like we'd have today, I mean, what we have in our other room, I've always intended to change it, but never got round to it, but it er just had a spring mattress, but it was good quality of its time Mm er, and I would think, well like any furniture now wherever you go you can buy the most atrocious furniture can't you? And pay terrific amount of money for it Mm and you can buy something, well which would appeal to me, anyway, er for not very much more if you look around. I rather like a lot of the G Plan stuff I like very much. But there wasn't very much choice in the styles was there? Oh no, no there was, erm it was very utilitarian, very er, were I should think plan would use the I, I don't think er, I can't remember a great deal about utility furniture apart from the fact that we have just this one bedroom suite, but remembering back to the, er we had the bed and the chest, the chest was very plain and very nice, very nice And you don't still have it? I don't still have it, no, no it had got knocked about a bit, you know, being moved hither and thither and the other people have had it a bit as well as us, because we bought it from the people who lived next door when they left you see, cos when we started in here, we didn't have any carpets on these floors or under here it's brown Marley tiling and I can still show you that Oh yes brown tiles and it was brown tiles all in that room and of course we couldn't, we had started a business and all the money had gone into the business and we couldn't afford to, to start carpeting, it was impossible, so, but that room really looked superb I think, I had huge rugs, you know, one in front of the fireplace and another one this end and the other end in colour, in colours, and there really, it really looked nice and the floor was polished up to the nines, you know, er right through here all polished all the same colour And you moved into the house in nineteen fifty Nineteen fifty one, we moved in, er and, I've had, you're not the first person to come all round here, this house, they used, they used to come round in shows from the Corporation all visitors used to come, they used to say, right Jean can we bring them round we've had people from Germany and everywhere and being in the architect's department I fell for all this you know I had This is all very much in the early days Yes, right in the early days. So you worked with the Corporation From nineteen forty eight until nineteen fifty two? Yes, and during that time they used to have a lot of people visiting from overseas And Chipping Field was rather like a, like a sort of prototype for Harlow New Town. Well it was the first hundred houses that were built in the New Town and it housed a lot of building trade workers, a lot of engineers and a lot of archi well a lot, a few architects and a few engineers and the rest were building trade workers or of some sort or another, and a few British Hydro Research Association been put down on this So mostly people involved with Most the people who were involved with getting the town together, from the beginning Mm. you know, right from the beginning. And how did you feel about moving from the Nissan hut into a brand new house? Oh absolutely marvellous we watched the house go up brick by brick, you know, we, we used to come down here and think oh my goodness won't it be marvellous to be able to run some water and have a bath in the normal way you know cos we don't, we'd both always had electricity and baths and everything else until this happened and erm, we er, oh it was wonderful, really wonderful absolutely marvellous And how did you feel about the New Town being born? Oh well we had no feelings about it because I really wasn't an Old Harlow person, nor was my husband and all that we could think about it was that it would be very good for the area, it would erm, bring work and employment and everything like that, but of course Old Harlow people were very, you know, a lot of them were very against it and yet, in the end, the Harlow High Street shops was, made a fortune in those first few years, you know, when there was nothing else and the, the Old Harlow High Street wasn't of course paved over in those days, anything like that and it, it was a narrow, narrow high street, it was almost like taking your life in your hands walking down there because there were crowds of people obviously with all this influx of community and they er the main Chelmsford road used to come up through there, so it was a, a hell, sort of a traffic hazard really. And how did you feel about the sudden influx of a lot of people and? Well, I didn't mind it was quite interesting, for one thing erm we were sort of off the beaten track here and although we're in the town you might say, we're out of it, we're in the country aren't we? You see But don't you think that gen that Harlow generally has that feeling? Well it does here, I don't know er, I wouldn't say in some of the parts of Harlow I would get that feeling, but then I am really a country person at heart and I don't like towns anyway, so I'm not really the best person to ask, no. Could we go back and perhaps you tell me, erm what it felt like, for example cooking a meal or doing the washing in a Nissan hut and the difference of when you came in to to Chipping Field Well the difference was like moving from purgatory into heaven really, because er in the Nissan hut I had one tap of cold water, that's all, every bit of water had to be heated on a gas stove, and every bit of water for a bath had to be heated in an old fashioned er boiler in which you lit the fire under and of course when you came here we had a ni an electric cooker, er straight away Was it a new one? Yes I had a brand new electric cooker, that was one of our buys, I didn't have a washing machine when we got here, but I had a wash boiler, an ordinary wash boiler. Did you have a refrigerator? Yes I did have a refriger I had, we bought a refrigerator and er a cooker and it sat in that recess there, that was our big buy when we first came, er we had a bedroom suite when we came here and we had sufficient furniture to, to erm furnish the sitting room and we had er a suite of furniture in here erm Was it this one? No, an oak table and an oak sideboard and that was all and just four chairs or six chairs I think it was, yes, er and it was erm that furniture was a utility, er I'd forgotten about that, it's taken me back now, that was a utility dining room suite of really first class quality, it was a tallish sideboard with two doors with big bow legs and a square table, erm, but it was solid oak really good Can you remember the make? Ooh no I can't, I can remember where we bought it, we bought it in Hillsham and we paid about two hundred pounds for it, I know, erm, what was I saying? Sorry I interrupted you. Er, I can't remember what I said, oh no it's gone Oh It was a joy to be able to go and have a bath every night you know to just run the water and find it came out hot, it was absolutely marvellous How was the water heated, by a boiler? No, by an immersion heater, yeah Electric? Electric immersion heater, er, ah, oh of course we had an Ideal boiler under there and it, that's what heated this kitchen actually an Ideal boiler and it heated the water in the winter and also heated the, and in the summer we let that out and had an immersion heater, well being in the electrical trade we had an immersion heater all the time and if we wanted to top up from the boiler we used to just put the immersion heater on for a erm week or so and get hot water and then let it go off in the winter time, you know, but er we haven't made a great deal of alteration to this place really, we've put a new front door on fairly recently, that was one of the things that er was very ugly, they, the back of the front of the doors to look at, ooh they were ugly doors Where they metal Er frame? erm Were they glazed? They were glazed with ribbed glass, you could see quite a lot of them on Chipping Field, still, er and nearly everyone who's bought their houses have altered the doors, but a lot of people have put these wooden doors in you know Yes filled in and that, and they look completely out of er they don't look part of the house to me Yes I don't know whether it's er me or whether it's er Talking about front doors I've noticed that a lot of the houses have got two doors on the front side Yes one which is the front door and that's the front door and that's the back door, through there Yes, do you have one as well? Yes Yes, how did you feel about that when you first came to live here? Er, well having, no did, didn't worry me at all Because a lot of people of, were very disturbed about having two doors on the, on the front, they felt that one should be on the back by the side By the side you can't with a terrace, can you really, yeah, I think any terrace, surely would have two doors on the front, wouldn't it? If they have two doors it's not If they have two doors, yes Could, the furniture that's right er was there was one was there any furniture that you could buy which wasn't rationed? Well yes you could go to antique shops and buy that sort of furniture Yes , but you couldn't buy all new? secondhand no, no, no new furniture No new furniture? no, it was rationed, and er, talking about erm people's taste having changed, I think the media has a great deal to do with that because when you look at things on television you can see how people Yes do things, can't you? Mm You can see furniture, you can see old houses, Arthur Neagus going round all these old houses, you can see a lot of things now, that the normal public never would see in the, the ordinary man in the street probably never saw them at one time, but I think this must of made a difference to people. What do you think influenced you, I mean if you went to choose a chair did you sit on it to see if it was comfortable or were you more interested in what it looked like? Oh no I think I'd want it to be comfortable, but I'd also want it to look well what I considered to be nice. Do you think that the sizes of the rooms that people considered the sizes of the rooms when they choose furniture? I don't know It's difficult I don't know about that, it's difficult Mm very difficult bottom cupboards and the rest of it, therefore I wanted that and I wanted this Would you call this a dresser? No it's a desk actually Because it's because it's got a desk, it's desk and er, we keep it, er this comes down as a desk, you can write on there Yes and erm the rest is just cupboards for glasses and cutlery and my hu husband's inevitable lots and lots of papers that he has everywhere Mm, do you think that it's important to have a sideboard as a piece of furniture, because a dining room isn't a dining room without a sideboard or? No, no, that wouldn't worry me, I just, I said when we got rid of our other sideboard let's do without one and then I looked round and thought well what the dickens am I going to do with all this stuff that we've got and I just found that we couldn't do without it. Mm, so We had to take the door off there, there used to be a door on there, but to get this long sideboard in we had to take the door off Really? otherwise the door took up so much room, you see. A lot of things that I'd still do here if, if I could whip up some enthusiasm if my husband would, I can't , he was a bricklayer, sub contractor and they have knocked this kitchen out about three times since they've been there, and the last, this last effort, I think they've put imitation beams in, I haven't seen it, but we think they have and er, oh it's, you wouldn't know it's the same house at all, you wouldn't know it Mm He was and because he was getting on in years and er didn't get out as much as usual, my husband said we'd get a television for him and we had a black and white television Would you remember what year that was? Oh, dear he's been dead, ten it must of been the ten, this is eighty two, seventy two, about sixty five I should think about sixty five So it was long, long after most people in Harlow A long, long after most people had televisions here Especially in Harlow? in Har oh everybody had television before us Mm, mm the same way is, now is everybody is rushing out buying videos Yes how on earth they can afford it I just don't know it's ridiculous And when you came to find a place to put the television in your living room Yes or do you call this living room? We call this the sitting room The sitting room Yes , yes did you have difficulty finding where to place it? Er, well no, it's always been in the place it's in now Next to the fireplace next to the fire place, er a lot of people have put it up in this corner and, but Near the window near the window, but we decided that that's where we wanted it, it suited us and that's where we put it. It never has moved from there because our two chairs and it's normally only two of us watching it, cos if we've got visitors we never have it on, you know, er they just face that way and it's convenient and that's where we put it. Do you feel that it competes with the fireplace as a focal point in the room? No, no So it's a double focal point Yes, yes, it doesn't compete with the fireplace, we have a, a, er mock fire in there you know, normally in the winter that, that's on and it looks, it's very realistic, it almost looks as if it is a fire glowing all the time cos there's a rotary spinner in it and it flickers, er, and er the room is very warm because it's central heated anyway and, no I wouldn't say, it never bothers me the television, I don't suppose that er, if I were left on my own I'd hardly have it left on you know I think men watch television more than women. And do you think that the, the room wouldn't be the same without the fireplace, without the glowing red, even though it's very warm with the central heating, you still need Oh yes I think , I think you need a focal point, I think, I'd find it rather difficult without a fireplace at all. So really it, the, the fireplace is more of a focal point than would the I would say television? Oh yes, yes I would say that yes, and of course that fireplace is the original fireplace, and it's very nice isn't it don't you think? It's very nice Mm lovely and the erm, when you moved in obviously you had to use it Oh yes we had coal fires Yes yes What kind of coal, fuel did you use? Well we used erm, a smokeless fuel of which we found very good, I forget what it was, er Was it rationed? It was like Coalite, er when we first came here, oh yes it was, yes, but we have electric fires of course as well to, what we did because we were both out working all the time, we had electric fires and I think my husband, husband had them allied to a timeswitch and they came on before we came in, an hour or so, before we came in this room and in that room That was a modern, that was an innovation Yes, yes, that was an innovation Yes I mean we did a lot of things that other people probably didn't do, I always remember next door to us at one time the curate of the St Mary's church, er, who is er, he is now Bishop of mm, gosh, he's a up in Nottingham way, Bishop of something or other, we met him at a, at a do not so very long ago and he's just the same, he's marvellous and he was the curate and they were as poor as church mice and er in relation to them we were really well off you know, and er they had hardly any fires or anything and we gave them an electric fire to heat their place up and er when we met him, it was last February at a, a do of one of the research engineers from where I was work working the last job I had and er, he said I've still got the electric fire And that would of been what in the fifties? That would of been in the fifties Yes, yeah early fifties Yes fifty fiveish Yes yes, certainly is. Two legs good or four wheels bad or does it depend who's in the driving seat, after all who ever heard of a road sow. Today we all have access to the speed, warmth and comfort of cars, buses, trains and planes, if that is we have the money, if there is a service running when we want it to where we want to go and if there isn't already so much traffic ahead of us choking the roads, polluting the atmosphere that we wished we stayed at home. Whatever transport you choose is imperfect, delays, break downs, parking wardens and baby buggy proof buses plague our lives so should we re-think the whole business of getting from here to there, one hundred Scottish women have and proposals and I'd like to start with a vote just to find out what kind of hundred this is, do you have a driving licence?, button one for yes and button two for no seventy two of this hundred have a driving licence which I think is some way above the National average, let me ask you do you have the use of a car or other vehicle whenever you want it?, button one for yes and button two for no and of seventy two er licence holders, sixty three have the use of a car which again I think is some way over the National average, now what cars do you have?, now let see what people are driving here there Golf aha Nissan Sunny Nissan, yeah Mini a Mini a Vauxhall Nova a Nova a Renault Chevette a Ford Escort a Renault, another Ford a Vauxhall Nova Vauxhall a Peugeot a what a Peugeot Nova Nova Rover Rover Fiat Fiat, no Roll's yet right, now what do you like about driving, I mean er the, you, know, you all know what the car is, what, what, what's, what appeals, is it just something you have to do, is it a necessity or is it actually because you enjoy it? I enjoy I enjoy it yes independence I like to be independent what do you use the car for? shopping, going on holidays, I really, really love driving so in this country or also abroad? well mostly, no not abroad, no, definitely not its a pleasure for you its a pleasure for me, yes yes I'm just learning to drive at the moment and I find its more for my independence than any thing else yeah I like to drive because its the freedom it gives you, no standing around at bus stops and even it saves you money, going from place to place mm, mm its your necessity, its an umbrella, its a pram, its a shopping trolley, its an ambulance, its a bus its a wardrobe yes It means you can pack in a lot more things in your day, you can work, you can look after your children, you can take them out, you can do a lot of things that you couldn't do otherwise. mm, mm, yeah Er from the necessity in an area with no public transport where's that? in the island of Borough, the Western Isles, there's no public transport within the island and er does that mean every one learns to drive as soon as they can? or, or even before tell me more better not right, okay, so its mostly independence and er, does, do any of you hate driving?, do any of you drive out of necessity but really wish you didn't have to?, yes Yes, definitely why? I really don't like driving, I just think its such a lot of work involved in it what sitting there yeah, aha, cos you have to concentrate constantly and I think it really is a lot of work involved in it yeah, the Yeah, its just er I feel you know its, its a waste of your life, you know sitting, I have to drive through the, the necessity to work every day, its an hour of my day spent just behind a wheel when I could be in the train, you know reading or doing something more productive mm, mm standing at a bus stop and I feel, I find it a bit frightening at times as well on, on the road, you know with things what that you see other drivers doing like what? over taking you know cutting right in front of you and er, you just, I see things in front of me and I can hardly believe that there hasn't been a horrible accident, you know, just seeing the things that happening on the road. Have you ever been involved in an accident No, no, not myself, no okay, there You become a free taxi service for every body you find that people just say your going to a meeting, can I have a lift or of course your going well I'll go with you and your never expected to drink, your always expected to be the last as you drop every body off, so erm, I've had a years of that can't you say no?, obviously not The ideal way to avoid unwanted passengers is to get a mountain bike instead. Well, well that brings us on to those of you who don't have a license and don't drive, which is my sums are right something like twenty eight of you. What, what do you do, what do the twenty eight of you who don't have a license and don't drive do? A bicycle You bicycle or walk or use the bus if your going shopping. is that by choice? Well I did learn to drive but I couldn't nee pass the test how many times did you try? twice hock I listen I that was enough it took me five times I don't know whether that encourages you or discourages my friends, but I mean, up there. I take a bus but er I'm learning how to drive now because I think it gives you a lot of independence. Do any of you not drive because you can't afford to or, or because, yes I take a bus, I live in Eastwood and you know that's in , that's outside Glasgow yes, and I live in a pensioner's house, furthest away from the shopping centre and I've got to take a taxi of one pound forty a day to shop so what , wouldn't it be more economical to learn to drive or would it not? I'm seventy odd plus, plus, plus the roads are far too busy for me now, I used to drive, but not now. What's public transport like then?, I mean its obvious erm Hopeless really? absolutely Is it worse than it was? definitely Is that the general, I mean I don't know for all you car drivers have any thing to say about public transport, maybe you don't know any more but those of you who use it, I mean is hopeless the general view?, yes Its quite boring being in a car, its just yourself, but there's always people to look at, its quite an adventure going on public transport and just what do you use and where? You, erm, I use buses and cars and I use a bike as well, er, er I think that, we used to have a car and I stopped using it, I used it, we had it when the kids were small and I found it really good for getting them around and it really was necessary to young mothers but their big now and I don't have to chauffeur. I thing recently the bus service has got dreadful since they brought in er private buses to their local areas, it was good for the first few months, but when they find out that its not paying at all, they take them off, they don't tell you, the bus just disappears so your left with the usual one that used to be on. Er, yes I am a person who uses public transport and I believe in it very much, but I must say that erm its very, very inconvenient, I have to rely on three different forms of public transport to get to my work and it takes twice as long as it would as if I, if I could go by car and so I can see the, the attraction of, of going by car and there are many improvements that could be made where I live for instance in, in Glasgow so that you would only have one change and not constantly shuttling to and fro between stations and buses and so forth. Now we haven't, erm talking about er cars as to other forms of transport and on the whole there's been more complaints about the public transport than they have about cars, but you surely don't think or maybe you do, I mean what's bad about cars?, I mentioned a couple of things at the start that, er yes. You have to always look for a parking space in true, what else?, yes I think for people generally, I mean there's a lot more pollution with cars and for the children who are at pram level or at the exhaust level, its, it can be quite lethal in city centre's with cars circling to park and such like . yes I don't think the whole question of cars and safety has never really been looked at properly it all seems to do, to be to do with cars and performance and I would like to see a lot more about cars and safety and like what, what kind of things? oh, any thing at all, just looking at cars and getting the design right so you cut down on accidents, really I think that this hasn't been looked at because its male dominated Its not necessary the vehicles that are in the wrong its the people who drive them who are in the wrong Yes its them that should actually be looked at as opposed to the, to the vehicle's themselves. You said something interesting, which I didn't pick up there that er, you said that policy making presumably you were suggesting is male dominated well I do feel that a car is looked at from a performance point of view, I mean I agree that a lot of bad drivers, but I still think you could help a lot by getting the design of the car right, because sometimes accidents do happen, even though nobody is really at fault and er I feel strongly that were looking at it from the wrong way round. mm, mm I agree, I find it quite difficult to drive a lot of vehicles because I'm very small and especially if you've got small feet and I think there's a big problem in that area and that it should be looked at for small people driving cars. mm, mm Er I think that advertising has a lot to answer for, er we have this er, you know on cigarette's there are so many notices and yet we get all this hype in television ads about cars, well cars are basically to get you from A to B and er there should be restrictions in advertising and try and get away from this macho image that the car has, its in, its a necessity of life its not something which alters your ego. Oh does it not? Well it seems to of done a great deal of, of male's cases. Well it has been suggested of course that the people do experience personality changes when their behind yeah the wheel of the car, I mean I wonder, I wonder what you think of that, let me ask you this question, do erm, do men's personalities change behind the wheel do you think?, button one for yes, button two for no and vote now, and you'll be interested to know that in this hundred eighty five of you think that personalities change, do they get better? Well let me ask you this in this case, do women's personalities change behind the wheel?, button one for yes and button two for no well, well, well well eighty five per cent of me , well eighty five of you think that men's personalities change, only fifty seven of you think that women's personalities change, what is the difference I ask you?, yes I happen to drive a very small car er a Fiat one, two, six and you can't get much smaller than that and I am much more aggressive when I'm driving that for the simple reason I think its this sort of principle although I'm nearly six foot in that I'm a small person and the small person mentality comes out because I get cut up continuously, they don't do that when I'm driving my husband's car which is a Volvo, er they will cut in front of me, I don't think they, if they knew what my brakes were like they wouldn't do it. Behind you, yeah. I think women have got children to be responsible for and that does make them more responsible and careful drivers mm, yeah I'm a very, oh sorry well both of you, one, further one, yes I'm a very new driver so I'm very careful and very cautious, not a very good pedestrian, I tend to wave a fist and walk out whereas I always give the other person, you know I always sort of wave them on whereon in the car being a very new driver I am very cautious you'll change I'm a very careful driver but I will admit I don't like men getting away first at the lights why?, what does it matter? because they do it to me so often so I'm determined their not going to get away first. yes I think er a lot of it has to do with confidence, the more confidence you get the quieter driving erm, I'm afraid the more aggressive you become whether your a man or a woman but er quiet. Its a very stressful situation and its a very artificial situation, very often your on your own and there's a lot of things happening, your in busy traffic or your on a very dangerous road or whatever and I think sometimes and I'm not saying there's any difference between male and female as far as that's concerned but I think its a way of your, getting your er aggression out mm, mm your frustration there I drive many buses as well as cars and I find I'm very aggressive in cars, but when I'm sitting high up in the seat of a mini bus looking down on every one your not so aggressive, you feel well I've got the right of way, nobody's going to argue with me. Well the suggestion is this then, if we all drive around in tanks or well then we'd all be tremendously specific, well let me ask some one who does drive around on the closest we've got to a tank driver here, Gillian you drive something very large Yes and does that mean your a very calm person because your so big, I mean no one no one 's going to get you on the road, I mean what, what exactly do you drive? no well because your looking down on every body else you tend to feel erm, well I feel sort of that you've got to er feel responsible for them and look after them mm and that's the criticism that I'm told is I'm not quite aggressive enough when I'm driving a truck, but I, I don't see it that way, I'm not being aggressive. who tells you your not a, I mean aggressive truck drivers are frightening idea who's, who's telling you your not aggressive enough? well its not its what are you supposed to do? its, it, the other truck drivers and I have to say that erm to a certain extent you do need to be forceful and positive because er they need a lot of space to manoeuvre on the road and a lot of people who drive cars don't quite realize how much space they need and if they won't give you the space you have to take it. Do you, I wonder if you think your a good driver, I mean there are, I mean I, I should remind you there are five thousand people killed on Britain's roads every year, there are sixty three thousand people seriously injured, they reckon that car accidents cost something like five thousand million pounds in Britain every year. Why is that?, is it because there's too much traffic?, because were driving badly?, yes I, I used to drive Sheena, but I can safely say that I live on the A seventy seven, aggression is equally as bad as drinking driving, because you see it happening on that road every day, aggression they cut out they cut in, you don't know where their coming from, er at least a drunken driver tries to go straight and make's the mistake its true, their, their both, their both at fault and I think a bad tempered driver is every as bit as bad as a drunken driver. yes Survey show basically that men have a greater accidents, i.e. they, they do proceed when they shouldn't etcetera, erm women tend to do stupid things like, erm reverse into parking spaces that are too small that kind of stuff. You see I get the impression that, that most of you more or less are willing to except all the bad things about cars because given at this particular hundred has sixty three car er, car or vehicle owners, you'll put up with the danger and the pollution and er, er all the various bad side effects of the motor industry because weighing things up you've got independence, you've got freedom, you've got shelter, a wardrobe, some where to carry the kids, is, would that be a correct estimate, is that, that, that is a general yes feeling. I should ask you actually which is a, have you ever been in an accident?, erm hang on a minute, button one for yes, button two for no, have you ever been in an accident? Now you see this is an extraordinary figure, you all, crikey well three of you aren't sure but fifty seven of you out of sixty three car owners have been in an accident, is that, yes Yeah, but your saying been in, erm they may have happened to you, I've been bashed into time and time again really and I've had three accidents and I've been stationery every time, so somebody's done something to me, so I've had three fair point, its still er, I mean its a considerable number, I mean you can see why the insurance company's are doing quite well, but your willing to put up with that as well for the, for the good points of a car, for the freedom that er, that cars give you and the safety someone has said, the individual safety as a woman, yes. Can I make the point as a country dweller mm, mm that driving is not a choice, driving is a necessity mm, mm I have never lived any nearer than a mile from a public bus and at one point it would be maybe two and a half miles from that bus, so my children, well my children are grown up now, but my children got nowhere or did nothing if I didn't drive nobody delivers the shopping nobody goes brings it to the door brings the prescription , er we've talked a lot about town transport mm, mm but in the country er public transport is essential but er access to a car is ess is really essential and for those who can't afford it I do not know how they survive in the country. behind you. I think that its, its choice that's something we haven't sort of looked at tonight, I think its the important er factor in a fact that we've got an audience here with a large representative er percentage of er access to a car and certainly erm I working in the transport field in West Central Scotland, er that is not the case, in Glasgow where the car ownership is something in the order of seventy per cent of the population do not have access to a car or do not have access in a household, we, you are then talking, you have to look very, very seriously at what public transport must provide in order to meet just day, day to day activities and I think that this choice aspect is something that is absolutely vital as the lady in front says. Now if this is erm, a perhaps a non representative hundred in so far as if, if you can compare it with er the, the average in the West of Scotland, I know your speaking as, as an expert because you work, well, well tell me exactly what you do, I know your with the transport yes, er planning officer with the passenger transport executive in Glasgow do you think women's needs are which covers the whole of Strathclyde . sufficiently taking into account when it comes to planning transport policy? What I'd like to say is I think erm certainly in Scotland and in Strathclyde area that four years ago, erm the first women in transport survey was actually carried out, erm and it was carried out elsewhere in Britain and er this was as I say the first study that had been done and the results were very surprising. Erm I'm not saying that er there weren't problems in security and using public transport and fear of using public transport after dark, but we were quite surprised that compared with the rest of the U K it was erm not acceptable but it gave us an indication on, on where to go from there on, erm and also I think er the important factor that in the lower in Strathclyde that we've actually consulted women in terms of er what they want and what they need er in the transport world erm in public transport and that's not lip service we've actually had discussions groups and that information has been fed into the large erm public transport review that were undertaking at the present time. I would like to ask, why, when there co-operation at the, the Strathclyde bus company they have buses that are running choc-a-block constantly full, but then again suddenly a bus that doesn't pay its full way is taken off and people that are dependant on that bus are left without any transport, why can't the busy bus subsidise the bus that isn't?, because after it its public transport, so is it a complete and utter profit that the buses are running for or is it for the convenience of the public? because it is what do you think? a public service. I think its profit, definitely profit. Yeah since deregulation the er local authorities have had very little er that they can do apart from subsidise certain services and obviously now you work with Edinburgh District Council don't you? I work with Lothian Mutinal Council oh sorry, pardon me erm and, obviously there is, there is a set budget and they can't subsidise all the off peak journeys, but a lot of women do travel off peak times, they don't need, they don't necessary always travel at the peak times, when the buses are most regular. yes Well, when, when it comes to talking about er transport in a rural area and, and talking about transport in the Western Isles, er were not talking about buses or trains, were talking about ferries and, and planes and you just wonder when you hear some of the statistics erm from these companies just what sort of service they are at providing to local people, where your talking about ferries at arriving in, in port at half past eleven to half past twelve at night, that's not a service for local people, I mean you hear about British Airways increasing their domestic fares to er, by seven per cent as of the beginning of April er you just have to ask is this a service been put up provided for er local people, and it just isn't. I'd just like to make a point and its confirming what the young lady said down there about deregulation and although you, you now your, your speaking as a bus driver I'm speaking as a bus driver, yes, within a company that's about to be privatized, and yes of course the bottom line is important and management think that it is vitally important and we know no longer get subsidies from any where including the Government, unlike your erm Local District Council, operated services so its very, very difficult for people in our position to actually keep services on the road if they don't pay. mm, mm Could I also say that erm again going back to Strathclyde that there is a, a social, there is a subsidy for those services erm where there is a social need up to a certain point and that is governed by the finance available, but its not as though, this is just the commercial network, in fact, er I think its erm something in the order of ninety two per cent of services in Strathclyde are commercially operated and it is Strathclyde region that fills the gaps. I'm glad all your transport users are, are now coming out of the woodwork, but you are the minority in this hundred, now of the majority the car drivers do you feel any resent of responsibility towards users of public transport, I mean there are all manner of er plans afoot to, to slightly further tax or er charge drivers so that roads can be subsidised, I don't know that it would subsidise public transport, but there are penalties coming up for private car users and drivers, do you approve?, do you disapprove, do you think that's fair enough?, no one 's said any thing about pollution yet, yes Oh I quite agree because I think that there people that have, I'm a car driver, but if I'm in inner city I tend not to use that, I use public transport mm because er the roads are choked and I think that er public transport in the city should be improved and people discouraged from using their cars in our city. so you would be willing to pay more would you, for the, to, to use your car in the city? I, I wouldn't use it in the city I just don't use it you wouldn't use it in the city yes I'm a car owner who's actually thinking of selling my car because I don't use it much in Glasgow I don't need to, I can actually walk to work and to come to somewhere like Edinburgh tonight I would much prefer to use the train, but I think we could have much more adequal plans to do with pedestrianizing city centres so that cars were banned from them altogether, they could bring back trams which are much less in terms of pollution, they might not make us big profits for the company's but they are a very good way, we, a lot of European cities still use trams. lady there. Can I make a plug for the Glasgow underground system I'm a great believer in it, I, I park my car close to that and find it a most convenient way of travelling around. Well it may be an accident but Strathclyde in Glasgow seemed to er be taking all the honours tonight, yes Public transport could never meet every one's needs, but it should be seen as a social service and erm we feel that more passes should be issued to people on buses and trains that are disabled or, or the elderly to encourage them to use it more. Well we had a secretary of state here who is now minister of transport, I do hope he's watching this programme seeing as I promised we have had gains and proposals. We are coming to an end, let me remind you that er of this particular hundred, sixty three of whom have the use of a car, fifty seven have been involved in an accident, fifty seven and I'm sure it can't be a, er it must be a coincidence say their personalities change behind the driving wheel let me ask you one final question and its a cheeky one and er, I want to know whether you drink and drive, I'm not going to, we haven't got any time for debate, I'm just interested to know would you say that you drink and drive?, this is not policy any more, button one for yes, button two for no, your told it as a simply for a, a kind of statistical er oh, er some of you are being rather coy and not voting seven of you say yes you do, well you know who you are, don't good night. Interview with Patrick . Good erm Patrick you've got all the information did you? Yes I did . What did you think of the brochure? It's very comprehensive actually. Nice quality erm that's Great thanks very much. Erm while I'm having a look through this er Patrick erm over there on the table we have a selection of the product er Right. printed product that we market across the six companies. Mhm. Erm they won't all have been mentioned in in the brochure because we've introduced one or two in the last erm year or so. While you're looking through that er I mean I mean I'm gonna ask some questions but there's a chance to have a look through Oh spent a bit of time er in the sunshine aye? Yes just a bit. Oh well most of it was indoors actually. In terms of er marketing you say you've got timeshare and marketing here but you you didn't actually to the selling then? Well I did selling side of it but er what resorts tend to do is they get a marketing company in to sell a particular resort and Oh right okay. then once the resort's sold the marketing company will go to another resort. Okay. It's from there. You didn't seem to have very much luck with these last two did you? No . Erm unfortunately they didn't live up to the expectations. I mean er take the Yeah. Er depending on how today's discussions go we'll need a couple of erm references on er Yes I We say professional people but erm we're we're talking about people who er are in a profession. It's er we solicitors accountants well we that just gives you some feel for it. Right. Er I could have put my doctor down but he's down in London so I'm in the process of changing doctors again. Oh are you right. Did you live down there at one time? I lived down there for about five years. Yeah right. Now you spoke to my colleague er John Patrick erm and he would I hope have mentioned how important it is to have a car. Yes er You can't do this job without a car. basically. Erm at the moment okay I've sold my my last car recently erm I am looking for another. At the moment I got access to two cars. My mother and my sister so it's not a problem in the short term. Er but obviously I I would need my own transport. Yeah er and er I'll be quite frank with you erm until I start talking to you in your background wouldn't come anywhere near what we want. And I'm surprised erm there there is no what I would quote traditional sales er experience. I don't count retail as sales experience I have to say. Okay yeah. I mean I understand No I would but I would have told you that on the phone. Yeah. I understand why you would say that. And I I really can't count your timeshare marketing that's only for four months this year. So erm excuse me. Turn this off a minute. So so there are there are a number of camps here I think that we have to get out the way before er Okay. Well what I would say on the retail side of it, okay admittedly it's not field sales it's not cold calling Mm. er people come to the store to buy a kitchen or a bedroom. But it's not the same type of sale as as shoe salesman in a I would go on with that. I will I will definitely give you that . You know so there is not only is the product design here it's er selling the kitchen but actually closing a sale when there's other various options on the market. You know there's there was Texas B and Q er Moben Kitchens that type of thing. Plus plus the er Kitchens Direct and people like that ? That's right. Certainly. Face to face that's the difference. Er face to face sales erm you know from John's conversation with you what we do. Mm. That we close everything on the on the phone. Right. There's no face to face in terms of selling. Okay so there's no appointments No. set up you know. The one thing about advertising er Patrick is that we tell them everything on the phone. You er when it comes to erm er whatever you are selling in tradi what I call traditional and retail sales, so that retail sales sometimes have a price tag up there. Yes. Er you can usually you still have to work out and measure what er what the kitchen needs or the bathroom needs Yes. or whatever. Conservatories er double glazing all of those you can see you can legitimately sell the appointment on the phone. Mhm. In advertising you tell them everything on the phone Right. because you can tell them the price the size what Yes. we're going in. And in fact if you don't do that and you you get face to face like this with me and say well oh wait a minute you didn't tell me that on the phone last er or otherwise I wouldn't have bothered to see you. So there's lots of reasons to blow you out. That's the difference. However, erm you know you came back about the retail aspect of course and most of our traditional sales people have never had telephone experience in that sense. Yes aha. So erm erm in effect your selling starts er well we won't count anything before that in er in nineteen eight six. Mm. I will discount those timeshare marketing there's four months in that erm with two companies wouldn't count in terms of what I would call overall experience. Okay. I mean it was invaluable in some sense but erm It was experience especially for the reasons Yes. Okay let's go back to what you say here. Why do you think you can make a success of a self employed direct sales job selling advertising. I don't think I can I know I can. If I can tell you that some of the the erm what I would call direct sales people have said they think they can sell advertising and are now in another direction or still resting Mhm yes. what makes you think you can do that? As er you've not even come close to being involved in anything like it. Well that's true. Erm but it comes down to basically believing in well Mm. several areas. I mean first of all I would need to believe in the company the product and that the quality is saleable . Did you did you spot anything Yes. in the brochure? Erm well I mean there's you've definitely a professional approach. Er you're large company er over quite a probably quite a large market In in our own field you you could say so. Yeah. You compare it with other Okay. organizations of course twenty million pound turnover or twenty million pound company doesn't sound very much but it certainly is in its er That's right even from In advertising. Even from er the quality of the brochure I mean you can see you know I mean that's quite high level Mm. er quality. Er on that on those terms. Now to sell that over the phone when you haven't got the brochures and to do is a difficult side of it. But given I I believe in the product and I believe in myself Mhm. it's a it's a conveying of that belief. Erm okay it's it's a cold call if you like er terms so I mean there's no get out for me. There's a bridges are burnt if you like. Yeah. Erm so in that end I've got to believe in myself or I won't sell it. Yes you're right. And I'll tell you right now that unless you listen to the people that have been doing it for twenty years, in other words you don't make appointments to go and see people to talk about Yeah. advertising, because a lot of sales people join us and they won't listen to that they think they know better Mm. and they fall flat on their face in the first week or so. Erm we will chase our tails. Yep. So it's very important to get er over that. Erm I still have to come back in some ways Patrick to er this this no car situation. Er Right. I will I would say that if you had been speaking to me on the phone, and this is not a criticism of John it's just a an observation, you wouldn't be here. Because the one thing I do establish I tell people come and talk to me when you've got a car. Right. Because we've had we've spent an awful lot of erm money and time in taking people into the system who say they will have a car when yes they come down for the course and they don't have one. Mhm. Erm and anybody who tells me that they're gonna get one and arrives by train at the course whatever their excuse I would be suspicious. Let me just explain where er what the erm options we have here today. Erm what the purpose of these discussion are. John would have heard enough of you on the phone to be convinced that it was a erm right for you to have a chat with, could Right. have been him if it had been in the south, with me. Erm he will not have asked that time honoured question do you have a car otherwise he knows what er Sure. the difference would be. Erm but the the point about today's discu discussions I don't call them interviews because er it's a self employed situation. Now you're thirty three Yes. Erm that's another thing that would may have persuaded me not to talk you into er self employed except you were already experiencing that I guess were you in timeshare? Yes basically when you are self employed . You didn't you didn't have a basic No it was commission only . er salary ? But up to that time up to last year you were In a fairly secure job with erm you know Yeah what er Excuse me. What makes you think that you will settle down at your age in self employed? I think ultimately er you want to make any money in the world you've got to be erm Also er it's all very well saying right you've got the security of a basic wage and all the rest Yeah. of it er but I'd rather be viewed on my own merits on my own worth er be willing to take a few risks in life erm and know that I've got the rewards at the end of it for making a success. Then I'm inclined to go for myself. Er well on on a this kind of level I mean Yes sure. not not look at go for the customers and the deals I think and all that the backup. But ultimately if I don't go out there a do it no one else is gonna do it for me. It's not handed on a plate or anything . Sure. Er but I've got the potential to make a lot more money as a self employed person. Okay well if you don't mind my I have to er because it does affect whether you're you're gonna be able to erm sometimes earn the right money. Erm your marital status is divorced. Mhm yes. You have your kiddies there to look after you're going self employed, you're gonna have to really make sure you've got enough money I guess. Okay that er Now I'm not going into er your that personal side of it but you understand how important that is for Sure. er to make sure that we're giving you the right platform to earn money to to keep all of your er aspects going. Oh that's fine. Erm that can make you of course more hungry. Yes that's what I was gonna say . Would I be right? Yeah. I mean obviously er there's a drive that's an extra motivation. I've got to make that money for my kids. Yeah. Er I think any married person has got to be in the same situation and so Sure. Okay. More so if you er if if you're looking at Yeah. looking at doing this again by the way. Yes. . Okay Patrick. Erm three things we're gonna decide today whether you and I think that is gonna be the right platform for you. Okay? With the reservations that I have erm I'm I'm gonna have at the back of my mind all the time. Er and the other thing of course would be the er very important aspect of er whether I think you can come over on the telephone right . Right okay. Although John really should have established that already so it wont be. Er once we decide whether that is the right situation for you or this is the right situation for you erm we then look at the options we have in which company that Patrick might feel most comfortable with. And the final aspects is when. Right. Er obviously you're immediately er available. Yes that's right . So that doesn't present too much of a problem. Erm two things I have to protect here today. Is your self esteem and self confidence. Mhm. In other words not putting you into an area I think you might fail miserably at. Sorry not fail not success at which is a Okay yeah. I don't like that other word. Erm and er secondly I have two thousand pounds worth of company's money. Because that's what it costs to take a person on do the training me coming here er interviewing Yes. and also er setting up the first assignment for you. So there's a chunk of money. Two things there. More importantly for for you is that would I be taking a hell of a chance in putting Patrick into selling advertising when the background there is is not necessarily there erm tell me why I should? Okay, well I mean there are var various people that enter sales as you know they've probably been a plumber or something and gone into it. I'm not one of those. I do feel that I was introduced into it perhaps gradually erm on on a on the retail side er but sales is gonna be my career with . Erm so ultimately I mean I've got to decide which company is best suited for the area that I want to go in. Now advertising strikes me as an area that I I feel I can put make some input into. Erm and without s sounding too pretentious about it I mean there are I can see this as being a sort of mission if you like. Er for instance look at the doctors' leaflets, the brochure goes on about er how much the money has been saved for the health council and all the rest of it. It's worthwhile it's not just erm like, I don't know if I can give you an example erm Can I stop you, is that your normal voice? Is that my normal voice? Yes. If it is you haven't got a chance in hell. I'm a bit hoarse. Mm. Yeah. I hope you don't I I can understand Yes sure. It is so vital to us that if that is your normal voice you haven't got a cat in hell's chance of doing it. Okay it's not my telephone voice . It had not be It's probably my interview voice. That's what it is It had better not be it had better not yeah well you see see how important that I it it on the basis of your voice now you might as well walk out the door. I I'm as I'm as up front as that. Okay. So Yep absolutely yeah. You know what I mean? It's very important. But once again John would have heard I hope something different on the phone. But if I don't hear the same sort of thing I don't want any more problems put in our way to make that decision Yes. about whether for you. Sorry to break in I wanted I wanted to make Yeah exactly. sure that you could up your voice a bit okay. Okay right . That's not for the tape that's for No yes. That's right I mean er that that is important. Erm okay interviews tend to be an artificial sort of environment . This is discussions. Erm yeah as you say it's discussions. Erm I'm still going to be tough though. Absolutely erm Right I've put you off your stroke but that was not No that's right. that was not intended to see if you could survive that, although that does happen That that happens on the phone anyway. I just wanted to make su certain I wasn't hearing your normal voice. Yes. Erm I have been a bit hoarse lately but that's neither here nor there. Erm Don't we all get that. Okay er It's it's selling an idea erm without any visual aids so obviously the voice is gonna be the most important part of it. Erm but picking up on that erm for instance I mean er first first impressions are the most important. Erm what I would do is go into a situation I'd still dress as smartly you know and all the rest of it We're very much a business suite company yeah. Yes. You would have to be. Cos you feel good about yourself. You feel more confident in dealing with that even if it over the phone anyway. Now erm that might come in come into the car. I know the car's essential but for instance if you're going to an estate agent you're not running round using the car in company time. In the short term I think that's an area I can get over that until I get a car which How can you get over that? How do you mean? Erm well let's say for example I was in posted in for Yes. four weeks or whatever. Erm in that case I would need to get accommodation over here or tran commute from You will still need a car. I'd still need a car. Absolutely. Yep. You cannot do one single bit of this job you cannot come by train to do it because what, you may not dash around we hope you don't because if you follow our advice Mhm. you make appointment er you make appointments only to sign Yes. the contract. Yes. But you may still have to go ten miles To sign the contract. to sign the contract. Sure. One way. So don't even think. There's there's no short term answer to this except a car from day one. Right. All right. So there's no there's no way round that. All right. I may have to send you a hundred miles to Aberdeen. That's true. Erm okay well in that case er what sort of time scale are we working to I mean how soon do you need somebody here? Oh I I as far as we're concerned er the when bit is if you were are available er now we could even put you on this Thursday . If we were talking medical practices. Right. But we're not. We could put you on next week. Okay. Right so It it's that quick. And some people say okay can I start tomorrow. But you know we we we we couldn't get the we couldn't get the paperwork done that quickly. So yeah we're talking we're talking in terms of starting we're talking about next week or the week after. People who go out of that door have committed themselves to a date. Yes I understand. Now if you said to me er I wou to to be able to get myself fixed up with a car then I need two weeks and that that suits us anyway you know if if you wanted to start next week and everything went right fine. But the week after is I think I'd be looking at two to three weeks All right fine. Yeah. My my er my the convincing I have to do in myself and and you have to do it for me is whether this is is the right platform for you. You're gonna go into sales anyway you said that. Yes that's right. Erm say say we'd agreed that you know you come and you come and have a go er not have a go, we would like to think people stick with us because we've got plenty for Right yes. people to do. Erm here's a launch pad er for Patrick to to earn substantial money, there are five companies there, ignoring the er area health authority er arena because we haven't got that up here, er which company do you think or which environment do you think you'd be most comfortable in? Right well erm Estate agents, medical practices, schools, golf clubs? And there I think are two there are two companies within the estates. I think the estate agents erm probably is the most likely. Erm I do play golf I mean that's neither here nor there. I think the estate agents simply I do know a bit about the housing market erm Where from? Mainly from my my M F I experience as a retail salesman I mean I dealt with contractors erm that for instance you know did up did up complete complexes bought loads of kitchens and bedrooms and that type of thing let er letting companies Mhm. doing up and things like that. Er You've mentioned estate agents Yes erm I will tell you right now that I don't think you would make it in estate agents. Okay. Why And that's why erm on the basis that the estate agent er companies are very specific about sales background. Right. All right? Because of the experience they've had over twenty years. We've had those for twenty years. However, on the medical practice side okay they feel that may be somebody with you background might suit there better. In fact I can only suggest that's the only area I can put you in. The medical side? Yeah. Mhm. Now you er it was interesting to hear what your choice is but now I'm gonna have to step in and say yeah Okay. yeah in effect I can't give you any choice because I know that the medical practice erm are very much more erm not laid back that's the wrong term because erm they they have a lot more opportunity for you to succeed. Because of the environment. Right I can see that the estate agents have or the estate agents are more sales orientated anyway that's that's people Well estate agents have never sold a house in their lives, they move paper. Sure. The occupier of the house usually does the selling. That's yeah. Sorry I've sold seven houses I'm a bit prejudiced against estate agents cost I've done all the selling and not them. Er however I I I can I really am talking about one area here Okay. and that's the medical side. So if we're we're if we get if we get past that erm er that that point of am I going to take a flier. And I would if I'm gonna use that term because I think I would be taking a flier with you. But I think it would be an opportunity. Right. Erm can I ask you what other opportunities you are looking at anyway? Erm what with other companies ? Yes I would expect you to be looking for a salary and wherever That's right. Er okay I mean we can talk on on-target earnings of twenty five I've put twenty thousand there but that's probably Yeah fine. a bit low now. Erm I have had a couple of interviews with a couple of other companies er What type? Advertising as well funnily enough but er this isn't there's one that er a couple of days ago Marketing which is a Cumbernauld ex-company Mhm. er but that's on advertising notice boards and social clubs that type of advertising . Right okay. Er What's with advertising? What's with advert erm Well yeah I mean Well It it has to be the most difficult sell in the world selling selling a piece of blank space. I don't know I mean er I thought timeshare was perhaps the most difficult area . Yeah you've got something to show. You've got something to show haven't you. But er you're dealing with a person with with pot er prospects that are I mean I'm a I'm a very I'm an owner so I'm Yeah. I'm very pro-timeshare. Yeah? Erm so I'm an owner owner which is why I'm the best salesman one timeshare could've got. That's right because er you refer to it. Er yeah I'm mean in that sort of environment you're dealing with people that don't want to be there know this timeshare thing. They've all these people in receptions or whatever is you know it's a rip off it's a con all the rest of it. Er and Which of course is what advertisers would tell you as well. Well yes they will do. I mean it it's it's But not such a rip off fair enough saying you know the grass is greener somewhere else but I don't believe that necessarily. Erm advertising is something that people need to do in order to succeed. You can contributed to their success. But they would tell you all the time that oh I don't need to advertise Okay. doing very well thank you. Oh they they might do that but then er if you can be selective in other words I mean if they've got competition and the competition's advertising they've got to come come to terms with that. You know and er equal if not better it. Right okay. Let's get let's get the hurdle. Patrick I'm I'm gonna take a flier with you all right so we can save it. But the only place I'm gonna put you in, that's that's because I think your style and personality will fit there. It might well do in schools as well Right. Okay? Although you're not we don't ask for education but your background's not exactly in academic area. Well erm I did a degree diploma and that which is now a degree erm at Hello? Could you offer her a cup of tea and say that I'll be er about fifteen minutes or so? Thank you bye. I mean academically I'm studying with the Open University at the moment on a a maths course. Okay. No well we don't ask for education so it's not important . Sure yeah that's right. But some times when I when people tell me that they've been in a certain environment. You see once again it's the environment we want to make people if I'm gonna ask you to succeed and back up my judgement Okay. I don't want it to be questionable I want I want to make sure that somebody whose gonna be in that environment will settle down. So I want to talk about medical practices er Right. and if we can get that out of the way. There are two things that we have to look at I need two references Okay. okay? and do need to be reassured about the car. And quite honestly you need it when you come on the course. Mm. If you drive down to the course that needs to be your transport when you get your first assignment. Right. If there's any hint that you do not have your own car then I will play you out as well as the company. And the course is the final decision point. I may put on my notes that this this guy may not have the background but there is something else I've seen or we've heard on the phone Right. but in the end they will test you out. So and they will then they will say, Not going to do this. Mhm. You'll still have to convince them all right? Well Let's get that out the way shall we Patrick? Okay. I'm going to sh er there's a pack that I am going to let you take away okay? And this gives you an outline of what we do. When er I I John I hope will have told you on the phone that you have no responsibility for setting the assignments. No that's right yeah. Okay? Er we have a marketing group that goes around the country doing that and when they er sign the surgery up to do the er for us to do the product or pri print the product they leave a sheet that looks something like this. Okay? And they are asked to provide us with a list of businesses which they are happy for us to approach. Now if they've got any sense of course they will put down businesses which they already have lots of dealings with Mm. others in the area that they know might be interested in having the pre er prestige er prestige being in the booklet. Right okay. Cos the doctors er still have that sort of element of kudos for for people to be associated with. A local community aspect. Yes. Now that list is provided with you on the day first day of your assignment. When you arrive at your assignment there will be an envelope full of bits and pieces right? They include that list. Now that could be six to nine months old all right? Since we signed that surgery up. Right. The most important thing you do with that is not to rush to the telephone and say, Yippee I'm gonna get deals out of this. It's to sit down with the practice manager and say right tell me about these businesses. What information can I glean from you about these businesses that will help me erm produce the goods. So it's very important to quali what we call re-qualify that list. Right. But that's provided for you and it is erm it you know certainly the assignments I did on the medical practice they were it was very valuable. But you do have to still sit down and get that information. Right. Now in that envelope there will be lots of other bits of information. I'm not going to explain all that because I haven't got samples of it here. But it certainly would be explained on the training course. Okay. This is an example of what's what is included. And this is er the sort of thing that er you'll hand over to the the medical practice to er at least remind them what you're doing there. And there are other bits and pieces like notices for for their board and their their surgery advising patients about the booklets. Okay. Now by law they must provide something like this booklet. Okay so that's That's fixed but some some of them started off with a a fo a double sided piece of paper which is thrown away with the rest of the garbage that people keep in their houses. But these are reference books that are not thrown away and that's what makes the advertisers the benefits to the advertisers that much more important. Okay. Let me just give you an idea, just that's something else we do, let me give you some idea of, that's a couple of examples very attractive books Mhm. and there are three two or three sizes of ads that er I'm going to show you er go through with you in a minute. But first of all let me explain how we come to agree the number of booklets on the and the individual financial target per assignment. Right. When er the sales exec for marketing goes round doing the contract bits and pieces er they he or she and the surgery the doctors' senior partners or all the doctors will agree on the number of booklets we're going to print. That is based s s very easily and solely on the number of patients they have listed. Now they may have fifteen thousand patients, well a lot of those are going to be living in the same house so we Right. a lot of groups of people so we we print them on the ratio of three to one. So that would be a five thousand booklet. Right. That five thousand per annum figure is a guaranteed figure, we could in fact print seven thousand in the first year if they wanted. Right okay. Right? New people coming in right? Yeah. But that's the that's the figure we agree we guarantee to print. That automatically internally within or within which is the company for medical practices, creates a financial figure that we would like to see achieved. Right. Now that doesn't mean to say that if you don't get to that figure you're blown out. It just means that we would like that because we know we've covered all our costs in the first year and the second year is nice profit. Right okay so Because we all our production costs commissions everything comes out that first year's payment. Erm it's important to not these figures because that gives you some idea er usually the size of the practice will determine the number of doctors of course. You may have a dozen doctors er how many has it got in there for instance, oh it's just got four all right . And if you go to this booklet here erm and see how many they have there it sometimes determines the amount of business you're likely to generate. Oh that's got four as well. But you can have a dozen doctors. Okay. That's when you get the big number advertising. It would take you longer but every doctor is worth may be a couple of ads all right in terms of who he knows or she knows. Yes. Keep this figure in your mind Patrick because five at five thousand pound the bonuses start creeping in. They creep in early at four and a half thousand but the significant one is at five thousand. Right. And it's only five hundred pound less. Because above that in addition to the thirty percent we pay on all advertising deals we then give a fifteen percent bonus. Right okay. All right? Now there was a book done recently worth fourteen thousand pound's worth of advertising sales I'll let you work out what that sales consultant earned in three weeks. Yeah. And that you know you get edgy you get your Right. back of your hair starts standing up . All bonuses appro are paid at proof stage. I'll explain why in a minute. But all other commissions are paid the week after. So you don't hang around for money in our in our company. If you've done the business believe in paying you for it. Right okay. So it's not like double glazing and home improvements Yeah. you can wait months sometimes. Now let's have a look at the the the costings of the ad the ads all right? We have three sizes only in the medical practice booklets. We have full page half page and a quarter. All right. And we always home in on the cost of a full page. When we're talking to the people on the phone we home in on a thousand pound. Full page is a thousand pound. Because then we can go downwards. Okay. If you start with a quarter page like any sale if you start with the cheapest they'll take it forget the rest. Yep. But there are two other prices where you can sell up from a full page and that's that pre a premium slot like you see there and the chemist there will have paid twelve hundred pound. Okay mhm. Okay? Per year for a minimum of two years. Right so er right Okay? You've got to tell all this on the phone and remember how important that is. I can't emphasize enough. On the spot you can have ten percent discount if you need it. If you're a discounting person then you're not going to be very popular with the guy That's right. who comes two years later when he has to do the same price again and it costs him money or her. Obviously all of this detail I explain to you here I'm just giving you a brief overview it'll be explained a lot more on the training course. Okay mhm. Have a look at these examples because er that'll give you an idea how we calculate the money. Right. If you took the lowest number of booklets which is two and a half thousand which is probably may be a two sometimes three three doctor practice Right. then you you you actually sold to the target that we have that's the amount of money you earn. And you could do that in two weeks. So that starts to look look fairly reasonable. Yes mhm. If you're in a bigger practice that means you've got probably er more opportunity to to to get more business then that's the sort of money. Do that in two weeks I think we will be happy. Do that in three weeks it's still not too bad. That's mister average eight hundred and fifty pound a week. Mhm mm. Now I'm gonna point this out. I must point this out and this would be pointed out whichever company you go into. All assignments up to a hundred miles away from home you will be paid thirty percent. If we had to send you and it's a big if, we had to send you another hundred mil further sorry another hundred miles, above a hundred miles we will pay you another five percent. Now our top earners do er top earners for two reasons. First of all they're not satisfied with getting one deal a day, they'll they'll not sit back on their laurels and say oh I've done my work, they'll go out and get another two. The other thing is that they will ask for those assignments. Right. They make up their mind whether they travel there and back each day or take or stay there. Yes. It's the option that you have. But we do that five percent does make an awful lot of difference. Oh definitely. It it certainly adds up over the over the week. You're going to take that away. Well let's just give you some idea, we're not talking er telephone figures here we're talking about the platform that we give people to earn that sort of money. All right? Right. Yes can I just ask er Yes sure just ask away. that five thousand that's regardless of whatever size of the Yes. Yep er that's that's fine. Or in fact that's regardless of what company you go into. They all all the bonuses with one one small exception, they all start at five thousand pound bonuses. Right. Here you have an opportunity to sell as much advertising you want in the period of time. On some of our products you have a restriction of how many slots. But you'll notice that the booklets are not dominated by advertising. No that's right I was just roughly trying to work out Mainly because the doctors have to match up each page with copy and that doesn't Right so And they're not like that. Mhm. So you can't you can't really over sell on this then can you? Well the doctors are, I'll explain one thing this er which is unique to this product. For every full page of advertising we achieve in the medical practice booklet the surgery receives a hundred pound from us. Oh right okay so So one of the things about qualifying er the surgery when you walk into them and say well look you know about the hundred pound per full page Mhm it'll benefit all of us if you give me as much assistance as you possibly can. Yep. What you need to do is something like erm, may be, saying to the surgery well is there a pie a piece of equipment something you specially want that we might be able to achieve through their and if they say, Yes we want a photocopier, well how much is a photocopier, well four hundred is what the last price we got quoted, aim for four pages. And if they think that they they can help you out with that that extra half page to get four pages Mhm they will. They'll do it yeah. And then they start getting even more excited and go beyond that. Right. Yes. In the main we we look for an average between sixteen to twenty pages Mhm. total of er of copy and advertising. Now we will pay your commissions providing you do a couple of this for us. Sell the space obviously but you do need paper. We've kept it as simple simple as we can. And I'm going to point out two or three things why it's absolutely essential that you tell everything over the phone. Because any one of these two or three things that I show you is enough if it's a surprise to them they will blow you out. Right. First of all you want three things. That's a contract, and this is the same contract across all of our six companies. The only difference you know if you're colour blind it's tough. But you'll see all right? Erm the contract is always between three parties ourselves the advertiser and the doctors' practice. Mhm. These are the things that they will cancel out on you know you've wasted your time if you don't tell them. We want I want to collect mister advertiser a thirty five percent of the first year's payment deposit cheque from you. Right okay. The sec I was I was gonna ask about that so it's not actually money up front total er or No it's a sales pitch. Because they say, Cor I can't afford that lot, you know Yes right. We say yeah but we're we're doing it in three stages. We're taking a deposit cheque and if you notice that significant figure Mm. that's why we can pay your commission the following week, we've picked up thirty five percent. Right okay. Er we pay pick up the second the second stage which is the balance of the first year's payment at er about six to eight week's later through this banker's order. And that is another reason for for blowing you out. If they if you haven't told them that we want a banker's order signed all right? Yes right. If you say I'd like to er can you get this banker's order, oh well wait a minute we need two signatures on that, or we don't deal with banker's order. Of course they do Yes. but if you don't tell them that on the phone when you come it this is what I want Yes okay I yeah and it could be and if if there's two signatures if there are two signatures require on the on the cheque we need two on the banker's order and you need both of those people there. If they're not and left that you'd never see it again. They'll loose it they'll loose it in their system. Then it's deadline time they say, Oh well forget it next time you're around. Two years later you've lost it. And that's why we tell them and there are some other things you tell them on the phone of course which you'll find out about on the training school. Mm. Okay. Two things so far. That and the cheque. And we want to know about what you want a new ad. Now in the main nine times out of ten they will have advertised somewhere Yes. and we're quite happy to accept that. However if they want to be juggled and redesigned we will do that at no extra cost. We will actually design and top-copy write their ad free of charge anyway. Right. It's no extra cost. It's all built in and they breathe a sigh of relief. We don't want you to be a graphic arts expert or a copy expert we have plenty of those back at head office Okay yes. Twenty year's worth of experience in bringing ads together give us and we've got thousands of examples Yes sure. we can show them. Not all at once but No that's right I get it. That's the document. Mhm. Once again colour coded to keep everybody happy. Right. And the training course will show you what to do there and you take samples away and the training manual as well. Right okay. Erm one thing that may hel will help is a compliment slip or a letter heading if we have to lift a logo it's difficult from a photocopy Yeah. so we will ask you to do that. If you do all that for us you can then get gather all those bits and pieces together and put them on your commission claim. Which of course is the most important document Right. of the week. And this is er this is my last but one before I came into recruiting. Mhm. Every consultant has his or her own number and so does the assignment Right. and that number is on the documentation you receive when you er when you arrive at the practice. We put the size down we put the advertiser the practice the town. What I've just described to you is a full and complete contract. Okay. There are some organizations such as BUPA hospitals have a special arrangement where we don't need a cheque and we don't need a banker's order. However we do need a full er BUPA hospital order. Okay. That's another thing you have to tell them remind them on the phone. Yes I want to go in, oh when I come round I need a contract signed I also need an order with this wording on it. And they'll say well can you fax the wording through, practices have got it or you just drop is round. Right. Value of contract commissions er rate and the amount of your commission. That's what we're looking for in terms of value every year every week, that's mister average okay? I mentioned bonuses paid at proof stage. Every two months a list of er er assignments that comes round er comes round to the sales execs for those that have been fully proofed. That is when you can claim your bonus if you're due any on that assignment. Right. Now a lot of people leave them the bonuses in there to accrue for tax or whatever, new car or holidays. It is safe as houses you don't forfeit it it's entirely you can claim it when your due but you can leave it there for us to Right that's good yeah. protect. If it's in your bank you'll spend it. Inevitably. That arrives on Monday Mhm. and get all your commission paid in direct in to your bank that Friday. Right now is that of interest to you? Do you think you can do it? It sounds very feasible yes I know. As I say yes I can do it erm There was a couple of things Now ask any questions Is it black and white one colour? All. Yep okay cos One except okay. The the only spot colour that is is what usually aligned in some way. Now we've got we've got a green there so we've er allowed them to do that. Right. The only erm exception and that's not even in your price structure, is that if somebody says, Look is there any chance I can have colour, that's the only place they can have it on the back copy back cover sorry. And you have to get a letter of release from the doctor Okay. because that's the doctors' . Yes. And they may have already chosen to put something like that on the back. That's right okay . Okay? So you have to get a release and it's somewhere around fifteen hundred pound for that back page. But people have ta Asda have taken Yeah? Asda the er you know have taken. Right. Otherwise it's all mono. No it's sounds straightforward. All right. So we're talking about two weeks' time, that's two weeks Thursday. Okay. You reckon? Yeah I think so. You don't sound so sure. No I've got a number of possibilities I'm just check running through my mind which is the first one to go for. So Okay so you've had some interviews, you've got some more interviews coming up? Erm well I'm suppose to hear some time this afternoon er when I get back now Mm. whether I've got this other one or not. Erm but then weighing things up I've got to reflect on that one. Because first of all I don't money isn't every but that's er what we're in business for. Er they certainly weren't paying as much. Er This is the other advertising? Yes that's right. Well can you do that without a car? Well ultimately no. But yeah I need a car. Erm so there to that end Whichever right. Er let me tell you in any self employed business you're gonna have to have a car. Yeah. So. Yeah. So better get it sooner or later. That's right. So I'd better hear what they say. Erm I I think they'll offer to me to to be totally frank. Oh will you take it? I I'm not gonna go through all this er Sure. Erm that's something I've got er before I arrived here today in all honesty I probably would have said yes. Because I mean that would have been the first job offer. Because we're not a second and seed company No that's right. and erm coming you know we we will sort you out if you don't Oh yeah. Mhm. Erm the If you want to leave it This discussion has actually sort of change my perspective on it erm and so it's it's not that there's an element of doubt in my mind I'm just I if I'm gonna go into something it's got to be a hundred percent. Right okay. Well I'm gonna tell you what I'm gonna do. I'm not gonna give you all this bumph to take away. I I you You've seen the doubt in my mind . You've got your doubts and you know I've had my doubts right from the Yes certainly. beginning. And I think you you really have to go away and seriously think whether you can I don't want you to think that No no no. I've wasted your time But I'm not gonna no no no it's all good practice. No yeah but erm Well I I think I I've had my doubts from the start and I you have you're iffy about it and I don't want anybody whose iffy generally doesn't make it with us. No that's right. Because that means they're gonna be iffy on the phone gonna be iffy in everything they do and I as you know I have you know I'm gonna take a flier with you. So it would be Well that's that's another side of it as well. I mean you're going with me now if I don't make the grade at the interview Mhm. you know that's against me as well so erm so that that in itself has put a doubt in my mind if you know what I mean. Because you think that because you Oh I mean I I after we after er we may never see look at each other again so my my job is to is to say right I can forward your name to and say look you know er I will make one or two points this guy er needs to be concentrated on, not as an exception, but you know because we've taken fliers with people before you've been very successful. But I have to say that they've been the major percent of them er we think if only they would knuckle down to it they would do it. Mhm. Yeah. I if I were you I'd probably be er you know looking around a bit. May be well wait for the you know wait for the er Okay erm right I mean this It's a bit of a catch twenty two. I mean obviously I want to get a job to get start getting money erm to own my own car is gonna involve money. Yeah what you the difference here But but Pat Patrick is you need to earn money to get the car Yeah. in effect. Whereas that's the wrong way round for us. Mhm yeah. I mean I have access to cars but Yeah but that that's not the same. That's not the same. We've had people say access to the car and then we get a phone call to say they're off sick for a couple of weeks that actually means that the car has been not available. Yeah. And won't have that. Mhm. Well that's understandable. I think I think we'd better erm er er you know we both have doubts. Okay well erm thanks for taking the time out All right. Well okay. This has still been an experience erm there might be another time in the future. You never know. Let me get let me get this out your way so that er Right. I'll give back then. Okay yeah. Yeah. Do you want your application form back? Er well it's Oh I'll take no I'll keep that. Er keep that as a as a future reference. Okay thanks. All right? would you like to start off by telling us when you joined County Council, in which department? Mm, it was the eleventh of October nineteen thirty nine. Mm. It was a Michaelmas Day or at least the old erm Quarter Day for paying rents and erm it was generally known in those days as muck spreading because erm it was usual time for erm, the farm workers to get ready for the winter ploughing. Anyway, if I could just erm describe how I managed to get there in the first place, which was all a matter of luck I suppose as much as anything erm I went to the East Anglian schools for erm blind and deaf children at Gorleston on Sea from nineteen twenty eight to nineteen thirty six, erm, in those days erm education for the er disabled er continued until sixteen. They always assumed that er, the disabled were two years behind the normal child so that er Mm. we had to spend a couple of years erm longer at school. Erm, I never had any idea as to what I might do when I left school, in fact erm, apart from basket making and er one or two manual skills of that sort erm, there wasn't much available. But erm, it was suggested about a year or so before I left, that I might take what was called The Gardeners Scholarship to erm The Royal College for the Blind, which in those days was at erm Upper Norwood S E nineteen and erm so erm I had no objections, I didn't,I didn't see any future at all in it anyway, but erm I took this erm scholarship examination, went up to the R N C to work erm some papers and to be interviewed and erm, much to my surprise they erm offered me one of these scholarships which was worth forty pounds a year for three years in the Commercial Department of the College which was an innovation really as erm primarily a College of Music for erm blind students and erm so off I went to the R N C of sixteen and erm did my three year course and got erm some R S A certificates and erm was reasonably successful I suppose I, perhaps I wasn't as diligent as I should have been. I was much more interested in football and cricket really, but erm, anyway, I left in the July of nineteen thirty nine when things were getting a bit erm dubious in the international sphere and erm Mm. still had no prospects of employment and I don't think er, er my parents had any erm particular ideas and my father who worked for erm Roads and Bridges Department was speaking to the Chief Clerk at that time, that was, er, his name was in fact and erm he was a very sympathetic character and er he said he'd have a word with erm with somebody in the County Council and erm see if they could find me employment as a typist and erm using the argument of course that the Education Department had up to that time at the R N C erm paid the balance of the fees for my course, erm I could just mention to you that the scholarship was worth forty pounds a year fee. Full fees were a hundred pounds a year and erm the Education Department ha had assessed my father's contribution towards the fees at six shillings a week which was about fifteen pounds a year. They were paying something like forty five pounds a year for my training. Well erm erm had a word with erm who was about oh fourth in line in the erm education hierarchy in those days and erm then spoke to who was the Chief Education Officer and er, I think they were a bit erm, bit apprehensive about employing a blind typist because erm it was something that they had never had any experience of but in the end they thought it was worth a try and er especially after supporting me at the College and erm also perhaps they had in mind that many of the erm employees would be leaving if war broke out and erm, in fact by that time war had probably started Mm. but anyway, erm, it came as a bit of a shock to me when who was at that time the Horticultural Adviser or Horticultural Organiser as they used to call him, turned up at home at Debenham where we lived at the time and er said he'd come to collect my typewriter we had no notice of this anyway was erm a jolly old soul and erm he went off with my typewriter and erm shorthand machine and the next day my father brought me into Ipswich and erm, well I saw and did a bit of typing and erm, that's how it all started. You were the first blind person to be employed in the County Council? In the County Council, yes. Mm, well there have been subsequent erm employees of course but Mm. I felt that it was a bit of a responsibility to erm, to justify the employment of Yes. erm a blind person. I also remember, incidentally, the first letter that I had to erm type, a young chap who was erm shortly called up for service in the Army came in and erm dictated a little letter to me to see how erm, how I got on and erm it was a letter to parents in Halesworth whose daughter had just been er transferred to a grammar school and erm in those days of course the, if the distance was more than three miles the Education Committee er provided a cycle and cape and leggings and erm the object of the letter was to find out the child's inside leg measurement well yes, yes I wondered whether I'd got it right you know, it sounded just a silly thing to ask and erm and I erm had to consider that probably asked whether I had erm made a mistake in my shorthand before, before I actually typed it but erm, anyway they seemed erm reasonably satisfied and everybody was very kindly and erm considerate and Mm. and so I stayed there but erm travelling from Debenham wasn't very easy of course that were How did you travel? By, by bus mhm and erm but erm even so getting to and from the bus was a bit of a problem, unfortunately I've never had erm been one of these people who have got the nerve to erm go about a great deal by themselves and erm being up in London you know, immediately before the war I had erm, it wasn't very easy getting about so erm and erm I wasn't very confident really Mm. but anyway, erm people used to be very helpful and erm Mm mm. so I managed for a few weeks and then I went to lodge with my sister at Trimley Mm and from there of course the bus service was erm much better. They had two or three different bus services and erm, the bus went past County Hall so that it was quite, Mm. quite easy, well it was comparatively easy,only trouble was of course that erm at night erm one had to go right down from County Hall to Barrett Corner to get on the bus because they were so full by the time they got to County Hall and erm so I used to walk down there with erm a chap from the Education Department, who was in the Works and Stores, a chap and erm, he was quite helpful. Mm, you never had a guide dog? Oh no, no. In fact there were very few guide dogs at that time and erm I've never felt that erm it's, I mean maybe just my erm silliness really but I, I never wanted a dog lying about all day because once at the office I stayed put as it were until it was time to go home and I could have taken the dog I suppose during the lunch hour but I preferred that time to erm to reading Mm. and just relaxing and erm in any case as I say er guide dogs were few and far between at that time Mm mm. and I've never wanted one since because er luckily I've got erm my wife who, we get about together. Mm. What, can you remember what your salary was when you ? Yes it's erm it was seventy five pounds a year at age nineteen Mm. and erm I actually received twenty seven and twopence a week, to start with it was paid weekly but subsequently erm we went on to the monthly erm payments and er but that's what I had and er I used to pay my sister fifteen shillings a week for, for lodgings. Mm. But erm interestingly enough my salary until after the war was charged to erm Civil Defence. I think it was erm a bit of a ploy that erm I was extra to establishment really and I was only temporary, on the temporary staff until erm well a year or so after the war when all these things were sort of sorted out and erm I was on the permanent How many hours a week did you work? Erm well I think it was about forty four Mm. but of course erm as a sort of public to the er, er a gesture to the public erm but one stage during the war when things were getting a bit grim on the war front, it was decided that erm, we should work extra hours as erm,to show that we were pulling our weight , so we used to, instead of starting at nine o'clock until erm half past five, and working on Saturdays as well of course, erm, we had to start at half past eight and finish at six and it was a bit of a fiasco really because nobody erm, you know, well the end of the half past five you were pretty well tired out so erm the rest of the time Mm. you were really kicking your heels and erm quite apart from which in the winter time the er conditions were pretty grim because they had the erm anti-splinter netting over the windows and erm big blinds which had to be drawn as soon as it was dusk because er, of course you weren't allowed to show a light and erm if that was it became really thick Mm. mm, I don't think the cleaners were all that erm good at their job, I mean they, they were, er perhaps that's a bit unfair to them to say that because erm the collection of dust was erm pretty dreadful Mm. with all the books and files around and er, it became, anybody with any chest troubles erm Mm. found it v very difficult cos erm atmosphere as I say was erm really dreadful Mm. it got very hot and erm stuffy and unpleasant Mm. so erm, and that went on for, I suppose till the end of the war when er, when we had a reduction in hours again, we went back to the normal nine till half past five. Mm. Mm, we did have to, oddly enough there was always a tradition when I started er of working on Tuesdays erm an extra quarter of an hour because that was Committee Day and erm I don't know what the idea really was, I think it was possibly so that erm, that people concerned with the Committee Meetings could erm sort themselves out and Mm. for a little more time to This was just presumably Education Committee? Yes, it was just the Education Department Yes, mm at least as far as I can remember. Mm mm. Mm do you remember anything about the A R P during the war Oh, yes, yes , its erm, erm County Hall of course was the County Control Centre for erm air raid precautions Mm. erm,ca before I go on to that can I just erm tell you what erm, where we worked? Yes, certainly, sorry. Erm, the archway from St Helens is still there isn't it? Mm, yes. Now just on the left as you go under the archway there was a small door Mm. I don't know whether it's still there but Yes. erm you went into the small door and then turned right Mm. there was erm, men's cloakroom on the left hand side and then our enquiry office was immediately on the right hand side. You went a little farther along, past erm 's room. being the Chief Clerk and then turned left and down quite a long corridor, which in those days was erm shorned up with four by four timber posts because er, presumably they thought if the County Hall got a direct hit the ceiling might come down but er they were a bit of a nuisance because more than once, I must admit I erm, I collided with them which rather made me aware of their presence but anyway erm, then just beyond I am sorry, on the erm right hand side, a little way down this corridor, were the stairs up to the next floor which was in those days Public Health Mm and right next to those were stairs down to the basement but they've still got the basement, mm mm Yes, yes that's right second floor is Education now. Is it? Yes. Oh yes because erm I know it because I finished up erm then just beyond the erm the stairs down to the basement was Arthur 's room Mm. and then got the General Office now. mm mm, and then the next erm one down on the left was where I worked with erm a chap named Tom . Erm his, he passed away s some years ago. Erm,interest interestingly enough erm Cyril was very friendly with er Tom's son Kenneth who was erm Planning Officer in some area now Sussex Mm, mm. I think but continuing down the corridor erm which was all the Education Department, you came to the typists' room right at the bottom of the corridor on the left Mm. and then erm turning right you went past the ladies' cloakroom and before you got to the door out into erm Grimwich Street Mm. there was a large room which was the Control Room and er in there they had erm four, three or four erm telephones which were manned constantly for twenty four hours Mm. and they took messages from the erm various A R P points throughout the county. We're talking about East Suffolk of course Yes. not erm the whole of Suffolk and erm the County Hall staff as a whole was divided into six shifts, erm and each shift was on duty for twenty four hours a day, for twenty four hours on Mm. and erm so that erm the shift that was on say Sunday, would erm erm be on again on the Saturday and so it erm, you know you got a different day Mm. each week and erm, the shift which was on duty say on Sunday would have Monday off, they were, they could erm go home on Monday Mm. and erm the six shifts had erm Controller and generally speaking these were Heads of Department, the erm, the Mr who was Chief Education Officer at that time. Incidentally, he wasn't known as Chief Education Officer, he was Secretary for Education, he only became Chief Education Officer after the war but erm he was the Controller of Shift E and most of the education staff were on Shift E. It so happened that erm Tom tha who I was working with, see he was on Shift er Shift F and er there was always a bit of rivalry between the various shifts as er, as to erm, you know, who did the better job and all this sort of thing They were always erm, making caustic comments about the entries in the, in the log book which the telephonists had to keep, erm, of the messages that came through Mm. but erm they erm, they had their meals in the canteen which was one of the committee rooms adapted for that purpose and erm, I think erm, the youngs younger people used to quite enjoy it really I mean they used t ha What did you think of it? Well I was never on it I was exempt and erm the younger people were, they had the opportunity of not erm being on the shifts Oh I see, it wasn't compulsory then? It wasn't compulsory er erm up to the age of about eighteen I think, Mm. I think erm, you know there were one or two sort of erm clandestine meetings and that sort of thing yes . as you could imagine because erm they had all the whole building to erm to roam about in Yes. and er, I think the younger people quite enjoyed it but the older ones, of course, found it bit of a bind, er particularly after erm the sort of patriotic fervour Mm. wore off a bit, I mean there was erm, everybody was feeling very patriotic at the beginning of the war but after four or five years the erm novelty wore off Mm. and erm Was there any financial incentive for Not re no, no, no, no. But erm as far as financial incentive goes, erm it was about a year or so after erm I started there I think when er they introduced it, the erm war bonus, which was a supplement to normal salaries Mm. and erm as usual this was erm, this created a bit of controversy because erm temporary staff, according to the reading of the minute, didn't er, weren't entitled to war bonus because erm, they'd been appointed at a certain salary and er that was that and er, but in the end we managed to get our war bonus as well so we were on equal pegging with the, with the other staff. Mm. But erm there were one or two little hiccups of that sort where erm temporary staff were erm regarded as a bit er second rate citizens Mm. and erm, with all the erm younger men and some of the girls of course er, volunteered for the services Mm. er we had quite a number of married women coming in to er, to work as part of their war effort and erm, so that there was quite, there was quite erm quick turnover of staff at that time Mm. and erm to be fair to them, I don't think that erm some of them were particularly interested in,in their work and er Mm. the war effort was really erm a way of getting out of erm away from home because the women were erm, found themselves left on their own mm cos the men had gone to the services. Mm. But erm yes that was the erm, that was the A R P erm Mm. story. Yes. Bu coming on now to your relation working relationship with West Suffolk, I mean did you have much contact with, with staff in West Suffolk or? Very, very little really, erm we had contact with other Authorities of course, in the course, in erm er particularly in connection with evacuation, erm evacuation took up erm quite a lot of staff and, and time at that er particularly initially because erm Suffolk was in a peculiar position or at least the East Suffolk was, erm at the beginning of the war of course erm East Suffolk was an evacuation, er was erm a reception area Mm. and erm there were all sorts of funny stories and erm some of them not quite so funny about erm the way that the children and erm mothers from Dagenham came by sea and landed at, at Felixstowe Yes, I've heard about that, yes. and erm it was really remarkable because er, I mean presumably the Germans were told about it and erm kept U-boats and and the from shipping out the er Mm. out the area, but to bring them from, by sea from Dagenham to erm Felixstowe is a bit by, by rail. Yes mm and erm, then of course when they reached Felixstowe, everything was a bit chaotic because th they had to sleep on the floor in the schools down there Mm. and then they were bussed to an Acton crossroads where erm a rather bemused erm billeting, Chief Billeting Officer then had to decide where the buses had got to go to and so you know looking back on it, was all rather funny but erm, it wasn't at the time of course particularly for the children and erm mothers. Did evacuation just take place over two or three days or? Yes, mm mm, Mm. but erm it had sorted itself out after, well more or less after a week or two a lot of the evacuees of course didn't stay very long, they went back home because erm I know mother had a, a little boy from erm Guildford when we lived at Debenham and er he went back after a while, the mother used to come down and visit him from time to time, they were very, came from very poor circumstances and the Mm. mother used to spend most of her time in the local when she did come and er Mm. in the end she took the children home with her, erm it was so different from what they'd been used to in those erm Mm. East, well in the East End particularly, Guildford was not much better Mm. but erm erm anyway the erm children were absorbed into the schools of some sort Mm. but erm then became, we got round to the erm question of getting the children into similar schools to the ones that they'd been in and erm I came into this, in fact I came into all sorts of things erm well by accident then I suppose anyway not for any other reason but erm Mr erm who was the Secretary for Education, he had a Personal Assistant a chap named erm erm he was a very likeable chap erm and er a rather ec bit of an eccentric really because erm he'd been erm, he'd trained as a doctor and erm he'd left the course before completing it. Then he went erm into the Navy for a short time and for some unknown reason he managed to get out of the Navy and came as Mr 's Personal Assistant and erm one of his jobs was to erm get these pe children sorted out and I used to write no end of letters for him to erm places like erm Ilford and Wanstead and mainly the northern suburbs of London erm about certain children who had been attending central schools which were something, which were something that erm East Suffolk couldn't offer and erm trying to decide whether they ought to go to grammar school or one of the area schools as they we then were Mm. in Suffolk and erm most complicated situations we got into. Mm. The erm billeting actually was dealt with by a section connected with the er County Accountants Department Mm. which subsequently became the Treasurers and erm they used to erm collect the contributions from, from parents and there again I got involved because they were short of typists at one time Mm. and erm we had to write to parents and er collect contributions which were overdue. Mm. How large were the, were the classes with these influx of all these,di did it boost up the numbers in the? Yes, somehow they used to accommodate them but Mm. you see it wasn't very long after that that they were deciding somewhere in er erm, I think Whitehall that erm Suffolk should become an evacuation area. Mm. So that at that point erm, we ceased to receive evacuees and Felixstowe went to Redditch, Felixstowe Grammar School. I am talking about grammar schools actually because erm the work that I was concerned with was in the secondary education which erm translated really means meant grammar school education, so that the schools that erm I had most contact with were the grammar schools. Felixstowe went to Redditch and Worcestershire. Erm, oddly enough Leiston Grammar went to Sudbury. Erm Lowestoft, which was the only other one which evacuated in total, they went as a school rather than a, you know, the individual children. Erm Lowestoft went to Worksop in erm Nottinghamshire. Mm, how we how were the children transported? Just Oh they went erm by train? they went by train, yes. Mm. And erm the they went as a unit, staff as most of the staff as well went Mm. with them and one or two remained behind but er, yes it was interesting how erm I always found it rather funny that er you had to go to Leiston to Sudbury to evacuated to school and erm if I could just mention that we had eight grammar schools, there was erm, in alphabetical order they were Bec Beccles, er Beccles Sir John the Man, er Bungay Grammar which had er small boarding house. Erm, Felixstowe,Fam oh sorry I missed out Hy Grammar School which was the really famous one. Mm. Mm,Fe Felixstowe Grammar School,Famlyn and Mills Grammar School, Leiston and Lowestoft and Stowmarket. Mm. Lowestoft was by far the biggest, erm and Lowestoft had a peculiar sort of administrative set up because they were what was described as erm a Divisional Executive and erm they had powers over their own committees apart from higher education which in modern parlance is further education. We used to call it higher education, and erm so we had to deal with the, the Lowestoft Grammar School in the same way as we did with the other schools and also with the erm Technical Institute which was at Lowestoft, that was the only erm purpose-built erm centre for further education in the, in the county at that time. Mm. Ipswich of course was a separate power, we had nothing to do with Ipswich. Mm. The erm Lowestoft Technical Institute was actually in Clapham Road and that got a direct hit Mm. er luckily, as far as I know, nobody was erm, nobody was erm nobody was killed. There may have been one or two injured Mm. but the Principal of the Technical Institute at Lowestoft was quite a character, a Mrs, a Miss G C and I remember it was the day after the erm, the bombing and the building was pretty well devastated and er Miss rung up and said, she'd got an idea she said erm how about hiring a bus, a double-decker bus, I could have my classes in the bus and erm it c it could er be driven around when there are air raids to get out of danger but she was a marvellous person, erm Mm. erm it may be that erm because of my generation, but you don't get the same sort of personalities nowadays as you did in those days, erm Mr for instance he was, he was a most benign sort of erm fellow of what one would describe as a real gentleman mm, mind you he used to have his paddies at times but Mm. he was erm a very fine man really, I suppose, Mm. I remember erm one morning he came in in a bit of erm he was obviously very annoyed about something and er, when he was in those sort of moods he used to expect erm all sort of reports to be presented and er he wanted er statistics which nobody else had ever thought of and erm Arthur who as I have s hinted before was erm really my sort of guardian angel he, he sort of er did a great deal for me. He was erm the chap, sort of chap who was erm, who was able to calm things down, he er Mm. he had a way with him and he was, got on very well with Mr and er he told us afterwards that erm the whole trouble was that the children's baths had leaked that morning Oh dear . and it turned Mr into a bit of a tizzy, but erm Mm. I don't suppose you'd er get that sort of relationship nowadays and of course it was during the war when people er the fact that erm there was a war on erm was a levelling down or up or at least a levelling of, of people's situations they, Mm. they were all in it together and er, there was perhaps not quite so much erm side Mm. as erm as they would otherwise be. So there was more sort of community spirit? Sort of Yes that sort of thing yes. Yes I well remember er I use when I was staying down at Trimley there was erm a lady there who worked in the Billeting Department, who ca who herself was evacuated from London and er, I used to catch the same bus with her but she never would speak to me, erm and erm one morning er she lived down at Curton and one morning they had some erm er German planes over Curton and they were doing some machine gunning and that sort of thing and erm and we met at the bus stop and she was full of it and erm that sort of broke the ice it was it was really amazing, Mm. how erm,gonna just because there'd been this, this scaring incident, it made her loosen her tongue and er Mm. because if I might say so disabled people were treated oddly in those days, they are not er, erm people I think were a bit er diffident about making contact with them and erm, a lot of people wouldn't erm, you know, give you a hand if you were Oh really? crossing a road and that sort of thing. Oh really, that's a sort of discrimination It's, it's much better now er erm, you know people have become a little more understanding of course. Mm. Mm, must have been very difficult then to get around sometimes then Oh well it was, yes, and erm you know if people are friendly and er talk to you and, you know even if you don't want help, if they offer it's always appreciated. Mm. Erm Would you like to say a little bit more about the actual work of your Department? Yes, erm Arthur as I have mentioned earlier was erm the fourth in command as it were and erm if I can just sort of go down the erm the pecking order, mm, Leslie was the Chief Education Officer. In those days called the Secretary. He had a Personal Assistant who er, well didn't come into the reckoning really erm because he merely erm was filled in when Mr couldn't er attend various functions. Then the, the Assistant Secretary for Education was erm a very interesting chap erm he was a Mr A O D and erm he was, he had erm an elementary school background, he hadn't a degree or any qualification but he'd been in so long that er he'd worked his way up to erm,s erm to Assistant Secretary for Education and he was a jolly chap and erm and he produced a, a dictionary of erm, of the Suffolk dialect which has became quite erm, quite a classic work really Mm mm. and then erm next in order was erm Alfred who was the Chief Clerk and then there were a number on level pegging, there was erm Cyril in charge of Works and Stores, Arthur who was erm, as I've said was my erm the guardian and erm in the Finance Section was Charlie and erm then there was the typing pool. Erm, when I first started erm I think the typists felt that erm as an ordinary typist I ought to er be in the typing pool but the I'm glad I didn't because I don't think I would have felt very happy amongst er Other women? Yes, so many ladies I d I don't know how many there were about erm five or six I think Mm. so I've shared a room with erm this chap Tom who was er he had been in the First World War and er though he seemed old to me at the time, I suppose he was probably in his thirties and erm he joined the Home Guard and erm lived, because he was bombed out where he lived in he moved out to Coptock had accommodation out there and er he was in the unit at Coptock and so that used to take up quite a bit of his time and other erm members of staff were, of course also had fire watching and erm various civil defence activities, quite apart from the work on the A R P shifts. Mm. Arthur erm he was exempt from erm er these sort of civil defence activities, I think bit of in the road where he lived. Yeah that is. Mm. But erm he'd always had a temperamental heart and erm at times he wasn't at all well Mm. mm it's interesting t to think that he's now in his eighties and er he's survived all the er heart condition that he ever did have Mm. and in fact er latterly he was much erm, much fitter than he was when I first knew him. Mm. But he was a very very kindly man and er he introduced erm me to a lot of things which I wouldn't otherwise have erm been able to do, or at least I wouldn't have g had the erm, been invited to do. Mm. And the work of our little section erm, which consisted of Tom, Tom , myself, Arthur and a young girl erm of about fifteen, sixteen. Erm was the erm running of these eight grammar schools erm evening institutes erm Tom was er sort of Commander in Chief of evening institutes Mm erm, then there were all sorts of odds and ends which I think very largely were erm the result of Mr wanting to erm build up a name for his Suffolk doing rather more than perhaps some other Authorities Mm. and er particularly in the field of agriculture erm we had erm an Agricultural Organiser and erm he ran experimental plots in erm places like Tunstall and Wickham Market. We also had an Agricultural Orga Horticultural Organiser erm with experimental plots and he went round to schools as well and er Mm. looked after erm the work done in school gardens Mm. and erm one of er, of the various committees that erm Arthur was in charge of was an Agricultural Sub Committee which in turn had a Sub Committee called the Poultry Sub Committee. Now erm for some reason or other we were responsible for the accredited Poultry Breeding Station Scheme which was erm initiated by the Department of Education or the Ministry of Education as it was then at that stage. Erm, sorry of Agriculture not Education Mm. and erm these were poultry breeders be erm scattered all over the count er county who yes the erm accredited poultry breeding station scheme was erm initiated by the Ministry of Agriculture and erm there were a number of farms scattered all over the county erm where they were open to inspection and erm we had erm had a Mrs who went round and inspected the flocks and erm they had to reapply each year to erm sustain their accreditation Mm. and erm you'd be surprised really how much er correspondence and er erm arguing and er they was going on about this because if Mrs went to a farm and then said that she saw some hens there that didn't look particularly fit erm and said they'd got to be culled and if the farmer thought otherwise then we got into all sorts of tangles because we knew nothing about poultry. Mrs er presumably did Mm. and erm there was no final erm sort of er judgment to be had so erm then we had to call meetings of this little Sub Committee who finally made up their minds and I remember typing reports, quite long reports, about erm Rhode Island Reds er crossed with Light Sussex and Light Sussex crossed with er Brown and erm I, I knew precious little about poultry at that time. Don't know very much now but er it er became most monotonous and I used to and I used to like meetings with the Poultry Sub Committee which then reported to the Agriculture Sub Committee Mm. and that in turn of course reported to erm, to the full Education Committee. Another sideline of this erm little secondary education section that erm Arthur was in charge of was the library and erm the Library Sub Committee he erm had to look out for much to the annoyance of erm Bill who was the librarian at the time Mm. because erm Bill thought that er really the library was his pigeon loft er not Arthur 's. Mm. Erm so that erm there were all sorts of erm little by- products from the agriculture and library and that sort of thing that er we had to erm deal with. Who actually was responsible for buying the books in the library? Oh, the librarian was Librarian, mm. but he had to report, of course, to the Library Sub Committee Mm. and Arthur was erm sort of Clerk to the Library Sub committee Yes. but erm Mr took t felt a bit I think about er having to go through another person Mm. but erm he was alright, very friendly really Mm. and erm in fact, we were looking erm my wife found a copy of the fiftieth anniversary erm of the County Council the other day. We were looking through that and erm Mr was the first er County Librarian in East Suffolk Mm. and we knew him quite well because er before we moved, my parents moved to Debenham, we've lived at Trimley and he lived erm well next door but one to us and er so we knew Mr quite well. Mm. Erm the work that I became, as it happened, mostly concerned with was the erm granting of major scholarships as they were then called which subsequently became called County Awards and er which were attainable in those days only at universities Mm and erm er we had er each, there was a Ministry of Education form to be completed, a statistical return and erm when I first started there there were no more than seventeen university students with these major scholarships. Now it doesn't mean to say of course that there were only seventeen people in No. East Suffolk at university because a lot of erm the more well to do parents would erm would probably turn up their noses at the small amount of Mm. of the value of the scholarship and not bother to apply in the first place, but the major scholarship was worth at its maximum a hundred and fifty pounds Mm a year, for three years Mm. and fifty pounds of that was loaned which had to be repaid at the end of the course in sixteen equal quarterly instalments. Oh, I see. So that erm erm the collection of of the loan was erm quite a major operation in itself because though erm there was a form of agreement and each agreement had to have two sureties and erm you could always go to the sureties if the student after the course Mm erm failed to pay up it erm, there were all sorts of circumstances which erm made it difficult for the student or difficult for the student or there were certain students of course who just erm tried to avoid paying altogether Mm. and erm at that time of course when we got to that sort of crisis we erm had to send a memo over to the er Clerk of the Council's Department er. The Clerk of the Council is now, of course, the Chief Executive Mm. and erm he would take er legal action or at least that was the idea, we hardly ever got any erm any change out of the Le Legal Department and as often as not it was written off. Mm, probably cost as much to, to get the money back Oh yes yes, but erm this we found wa always was the case with the er County Council Legal Department that er by the time they got round to it the people had either gone abroad or something had happened er Mm. so it was written off in the end. Mm. Er the most interesting case erm, I remember was a chap who erm having completed his course erm joined the R A F and erm he was missing at Dieppe when they had the rather abortive attempt at landing at Dieppe during the war and er, but he was never erm posted as as erm having died and erm it was years afterwards, it was in the nineteen fifties in fact before we could get the Department of Education to agree to the loan being written off because erm obviously he was, by that time he had to be assumed as Mm. dead and not just missing. Mm. But erm another funny story that er always sticks in my mind is er when we sent memos to the Clerks' Department and there was only the Clerks' Department, they were, they were trying to erm improve their public image as We were told, because of the shortage of paper, we were told only to use secondhand papers er paper that had already been used for letters or memos when writing to the Clerks' Department and erm we erm used to get the grubbiest paper that we could and then you had to condense it and type it erm without too much space and erm that went over to the Clerks' Department, then erm when it got over th oh sorry you had to trim off the edges erm so that there was no spare paper left around the memo so that er you know there was just this little bit of paper with the Yes. message on it or the er instruction on it Mm mm and then when it got over to the Clerks' Department they used to stick it on another piece of paper so that they could put it on the file and er that may sound er a bit exaggerated but I can assure you that's what happened, that er, to go to, to be able to file these, these little scraps of paper they had to stick it on another sheet Yes. it was rather funny. Do you remember the introduction of, sort of computers or any sort of mechanized typewriters ? Not erm, not within the the time which we are talking about really. No. This was erm well we were at County Hall of course and er subsequently we erm, they built this what was described as a derelict aircraft carrier and Mm. and er we moved over there because erm the Department was splitting at the seams really, because immediately there was erm, the war was over and there were all sorts of plans for erm for development and that sort of thing and erm as I've already mentioned there were two, only two graduates in the whole of the Education Department who was Mr and er his Personal Assistant and erm then after the war there were three graduates appointed, all of them from erm, ex service men, there was Arthur who was erm Lieutenant Commander in the Navy, there was erm Bud , I can't remember his Christ proper christian name. He was in the R A F erm erm and then there was a chap named Harold who was Lieutenant Colonel from the Army. Erm he subsequently went to erm Huddersfield as Chief Education Officer Mm. but erm, and these people were assigned erm three separate sections erm, Harold for instance, he took over Further Education which was a term which hadn't been erm, was not an accepted term in those days because we'd always er referred to it as Higher Education Mm. and Bud was erm, dealt with schools and erm er, no I'm sorry Arthur dealt with schools. Bud had a very special job, he erm, he was in charge of the Post War Planning and erm, he spent no end of time and er a great deal of research having er committee member er committee meetings to do with the setting up of County Colleges Mm. and erm the reorganizing of erm secondary education which all stemmed of course really from the nineteen forty four Act Mm. Yes. and erm er in the end of course, hardly any of it was implemented. We never did get erm any county colleges. Mm. funds, funds were limited for school buildings. We er yes, yes, we erm, one thing that did happen of course was that the area schools as they were called in those days became erm, described as modern schools Mm. and erm they was erm quite funny really because erm Rentham School was then Rentham Senior School erm was on the black nineteen twenty six blacklist of schools erm for erm closing and er, erm resitting somewhere, Mm. but er, under the nineteen forty four Act,Rentham Senior School then became Rentham Modern School and we thought we thought that the silly term to go to a school which in nineteen twenty six had been er on the blacklist Mm. because there was erm before the war there was a blacklist of schools which were due for reor reorganization and erm Mm. resiting. Can you remember where any of the others were, on the blacklist? Er, no that was er erm, most of, most of the blacklist had been dealt with erm it had been a fair amount of erm reorganization and er rebuilding Mm. but erm Course it was the Butler Act of nineteen forty four which set up this three stage It was, yes. national ladder. There was grammar, erm secondary, secondary grammar, secondary technical and secondary modern Mm. but there again secondary technical erm really didn't get off the ground, Mm. erm there were some erm secondary technical erm facilities of course at one or two of the schools before the war. Erm they had a machine, quite advanced machine shop at the Leiston Grammar School and er interestingly enough that became er used whilst the grammar school was evacuated as a training centre for erm . Er one of the members of staff of the Leiston Grammar School, a chap named Johnny erm, was in charge of his trainees and erm there again erm Arthur and our section became responsible for erm all this in-service training for er, er women mainly because the men of course had joined up and erm the used to come in quite often and er he got, used to get so upset because he couldn't erm, he got at cross purposes with some of these ladies and erm he was always talking about erm different types of lathe and chucks and things like that and er, none of us had any idea what he was talking about it was far too technical for us but erm Arthur used to listen and in the end er, I think Johnny went off, you know, satisfied that somebody had listened to him but erm that was erm financed of course by the Ministry of Labour at erm as the erm Education Department were responsible for the the general administration of it Mm. and erm Wickham Market had erm Machine Centre erm, that was used during the war for erm certain courses er particularly for erm tractor drivers, they used to er have a week's course, they had to apply to the Education Committee and er we got these applications in and erm they spent a week at Wickham Market, then in they used to stay in lodgings if they came from great distances and erm they would learn about the maintenance of erm of tractors and er, I suppose it's quite a good thing really because er, it was difficult to get any repairs done in those days Mm. and er that was one of Tom 's extras because I could very well remember, erm we had very little erm time off at Christmas and there was one year that erm, we just had the Christmas Day and erm erm Tom had this meeting on the Christmas Eve to decide who should erm attend the next week's tractor course and erm, everybody was sort of feeling in the, sort of Christmas spirit and Mm. er perhaps Tom himself was erm not really concentrating very much but I know when we came back after the Christmas Day, the Boxing Day that is, erm, Tom was quite oblivious as to what had gone on on the Chr on the Christmas Eve, so I remember we c we put our heads together and erm came to erm some arrangement as to who should be invited for this next tractor course and nothing was ever said so I expect the right people went after all but erm it's funny how when he was Mm. a bit befuddled and I think everybody else was er a bit unconcerned as to what was going on on the Christmas Eve. Mm. The erm education for the forces was another erm Oh yes, you mentioned that. another sideline of course and erm there again erm Mr who er kept a finger in, in a lot of pies, he erm with the W E A of course and erm the Cambridge Extra Mural Board of Studies. He was very friendly with erm who was in charge of the Extra Mural Board and erm then possibly because of this connection erm we were asked by the erm Ministry of Defence to provide lectures and courses for erm units of H M Forces stationed in the area and erm so a panel of lecturers was erm formed and erm they used to go out, the, the units used to have their own Education Officers, usually a sergeant or perhaps a second lieutenant and erm they used to come into the office and say that they'd like somebody to go out to their Searchlight Unit or A A Unit stationed somewhere out in the sticks and er lecture on this that or the other and erm we were supposed to try and fix them up and erm the panel erm, it had quite a number of erm people on it that erm, I can't remember who they all were, I know that erm you'd hardly believe this but there was a chap named Mr and another chap named Mr Yes . and they used to erm, they were ornithologists and they used to go out to these units and take slides and er lecture to the, to the men about birds and er natural history and Mr himself he, he was famous for three different lectures that he used to offer. One was from erm from Baghdad to Barqu and the other one was from Barqu to Basrah because he was in the First World War, I think he was serving with the Middlesex Regiment and erm, I don't know how he managed this, I never did understand. Anyway, he was a Captain in the Army and he had these slides of erm his, his journeys erm er in Arabia and he used to show this with er great regularity not only to erm Units of H M Forces but also to the er shifts, the A R P shifts he used to amuse them by Mm. showing these films. Then he had another one about er Gertrude who was erm, I never did know very much about Gertrude but she was erm a lady of some repute in er in Egypt a at erm either just before or just after the First World War. Then erm, of course there were people who lectured on er gate courses on elementary German, there was a friend of Doctor , who used to go out and, to units and erm give lessons in German and erm there were, there was a unit of Polish erm soldiers stationed, they had an armoured train, believe it or not, which was erm parked at Saxmundham and erm every so often, particularly at night, they used to trample up and down the line. Now what they, what they were supposed to do erm I never did know but there were quite a number of these er men who lived in this train and they had a lieutenant who's quite a handsome chap by all accounts, he used to come into the office a chap named lieutenant and erm erm this was one of the things that landed on Joyce 's plant er plate and er she used to meet these Education Officers and arrange for courses and in the er in Lieutenant 's case of course there was er, instruction in English which erm erm Stanley who was a Headmaster of er Area School he undertook classes for these Polish chaps but er so often of course these erm, these units were only in the area for a limited space of time so you couldn't arrange anything very, very comprehensive Mm erm I remember one er, I think it was Bedfield Hall or some big house at Bedfield where erm they had erm erm a hostel for Wrens, I think they were probably in training there and erm their Education Officer came in and wanted us to arrange a course erm and she wanted it described as a school for brides about erm, you know early marriage and all this sort of thing and erm that was a bit of a puzzle because erm, nobody knew really what to Mm. lay on for them and erm also of course erm, I know, people like erm Mr and Mr they used to be picked up by er, by some chaps in a jeep or Army truck. They used to go all the way out to these erm Searchlight Stations and erm they used to, very often they, they were situated in a, in a sort of pit in a dug out and erm when they arrived of course er the Education Officer had forgotten to tell the, the troops that there was a lecture that they were supposed to attend and er nobody turned up. They used to get erm these people on the Election Panel used to be paid a couple of guineas a time for their lectures Mm. but they were always a bit erm unhappy when they gave up so much time and er there was nobody there to listen to them when when they got there. A bit unfortunate really. Erm, another lecturer that I can remember was erm a chap named who was head at Reydon R E Y School near Southwold. He was very interested in astronomy and he used to lecture on the stars and that sort of thing. Erm, of course it has to be remembered that all these lectures, or at least most of them, were erm voluntary compulsion and the men used to turn up because they were told to and er whether or not they showed little or no interest very often and it was all erm well a bit of a waste of time. Mm. Mm. What would you say were some of your happiest memories of your time spent with the County Council? Erm ah, now that erm I think I was reasonably happy most of the time, erm I know if I can sort of look at the other side of the coin erm, I became a bit apprehensive as the war went on and er, obviously it wasn't going to last much longer. Mm. Er men were coming, young men were coming out of the forces and er they wanted their jobs back and er I began to wonder what was going to happen to me, if, because I was on the temporary staff and erm there was no guarantee that I'd be able to stay erm, and then of course erm I was thinking of probably getting married and erm er the salary at that stage wasn't er, wasn't very much to get married on. I can't remember wha exactly what it was but er it erm had gone up a little since erm, since I first started. But I certainly remember going to Mr and erm, I felt very bold when I went and said that er, you know, sooner or later I'd erm, I'd get married and er set up a home and that sort of thing and erm I said er, what are the prospects of erm getting a reasonable salary? He was then on a f salary of about four hundred a year I think. So it gives you some idea of what the salaries were like in those days. Mm. He said, erm, well what would you think was reasonable? Er what would you be able to manage on, sort of thing and I said about two hundred and fifty a year and er, you know, that was quite realistic in those days but erm obviously it wouldn't go very far now, would it? No . It wouldn't. But erm, if I could just erm erm expand a bit on this erm on this erm major awards, er because it was quite interesting, particularly because of the present er, uncertainty about what's going to happen about students' grants. Mm. Erm just er when I first started, I've already mentioned I think that erm there are about seventeen erm students at universities with major scholarships within the maximum of this erm hundred and fifty pounds a year and erm we inter had to interview all these erm applicants, erm which wasn't a very arduous task because there weren't so many of them but Mm. we had to get erm reports from the Examining Boards erm on their performances, in the Higher School Certificate Exam erm, they had to take two main subjects and two subsidiaries and according to the recommendations of the Examining Boards, then, by and large, they er received a major award or, or they didn't but erm there was a consolation prize for those who didn't erm get a major award because there were a few, what they called, special loans erm offered by the Education Committee. These were fifty pounds a year Mm and, but of course, they were loans and had to be repaid at the end of the course. Er teacher training erm, which was then, of course, a two year course. Erm, they were not interviewed, they if they were accepted by a teacher training college they received erm a maximum of, of fifty pounds a year but erm as far as I can remember there was no loan erm element in that but I m I may be wrong because er but I never can remember erm writing to recover loans from the training college student. Mm. But erm, after the erm forty four Act of course, things began to er develop quite quickly and erm we then had what we called erm discretionary awards or minor awards we called them in the first place Mm. erm for various things and er one of the earliest er minor awards which the Education Committee had was to erm a girl from Ruth who wanted to take erm erm a course for erm the N P S, the Pharmaceutical er Society's Mm. Exams and erm she was about the first I think and there was erm somebody else who wanted to take a course in erm Youth Leadership but erm, very quickly the numbers increased till the time I left of course we, we were dealing with thousands Mm. literally thousands and the expenditure had, had gone up to well over a million pounds. Mm. But that was er not until ninete oh at the time of reorganization that we, of course the numbers increased dramatically then with erm, when we took the Borough students over and er also those from West Suffolk. Mm. But I erm became responsible for erm awards. Well I say responsible, I was really responsible to erm the e what we c that were then known as Assistant Education Officers. Erm, but erm, I had go was allowed a great deal of latitude. I don't know whether, people thought that erm if they interfered with me I wouldn't er I wouldn't play or what it was but then, anyway erm when the war ended, as I say I got a bit erm worried and erm I then got in touch with er Mr who was then er, then taken over from Sir Cecil Clerk of the Council or Chief Executive and erm, he suggested that erm I might take a course for the erm Home Workers Diploma For The Blind which erm was, well it was a sort of specialized er social worker really. They used to have people specializing for erm, erm blind individuals. Mm. So erm, both my wife. My wife used to work in the Education Department, incidentally and erm, we both decided we'd take this diploma and er Mr erm in his kindness let us erm erm go off to the workshops and do some practical work and erm my wife lived at Stow Upland and I was lodging in Ipswich and er he even allowed us to study in the, in the erm Enquiry Office in the evenings. I think he was a bit apprehensive about that because he didn't know whether erm he was doing right by allowing us to be together in the Enquiry Office after office hours anyway. Erm, we did er the studies and erm too I took the diploma. Phil, my wife, erm had measles just at the time of the exam. So she didn't take it in the end but erm anyway I got this diploma and er then I was quite annoyed because erm Social Services then erm pu the Welfare for the Blind was dealt with by the Public Health Department and a vacancy occurred in the Public Health Department for erm Blind Welfare Officer, or at least a Welfare Officer for the Blind and I applied for it and erm, they er didn't make an appointment because they didn't er get in other applications but they di they didn't offer me the appointment. So I had a bit of an up and a downer and er erm created quite a stir with erm Mr the Clerk of the Council Professor. I thought this was very unfair and erm, but then luckily really because erm I don't think I would have let the job would have been difficult even if er I'd had my wife as, for transporting me around to these various people. Erm I then, erm sent a memo to the t erm County er Clerk of the Council and erm applied for upgrading and erm so I was then taken, I was put on the permanent staff. Taken off the typist's grade on to what was then called higher clerical and erm given the job of erm looking out for erm er awards, er both university and teacher training and erm the minor awards or discretionary awards as they became and that's erm, I was given this job and er that's how it's built up really over the years. Mm. It started from something erm quite small and finished up with something fairly large really Yes. and it's be it's been a very fascinating job because in the course of the years, obviously one has met erm, parents and students and lecturers and erm university tutors we've got to know quite well because erm there were all sorts of problems as you probably know with Mm. in these establishments Mm. and er the students themselves have all sorts of problems and latterly of course we had erm a great number of mature students Mm. and er as often as not they were ladies who had been separated or divorced and er they had all, a lot of sort of marital problems and it became almost a, a we welfare of job as much as erm a grant situation. Mm. The grants, the of the grants of course increased over the years and the main thing about erm awards of course was to assess them and this is something which erm, I always felt a bit self conscious about because, we had this erm very comprehensive form where parents and erm, oh individuals when they were the students themselves had to complete and give very precise details of income Mm. and financial circumstances and erm, this was something of course that I had to leave to the people who were working got himself another job. So that erm, nobody really kn was the most monotonous job when you had to erm assess literally thousands of students in the end. Mm. And erm, I always felt sorry for the people working in Inland Revenue because er,they were, they were having to do it all the time Mm. but erm, we never used to get the new rates of grants and the new regulations out from the erm Ministry until oh early June and all this work had to be done, erm, obviously before the Mm. new term st new academic year started Mm. and everybody was clamouring to know how much they were going to get and er we were always trying to head them off by saying that er, theirs was next on the list and er Mm. So sometimes students would get their grants quite late ? We always tried to get some payment to them before a term started Mm. erm, it never, with reorganization it was a bit of a problem because erm I well remembers too just after reorganization the County Treasurers took all the telephones off the hook, so there was no communication between our department and theirs. So you couldn't tell whether their, whether a student's cheque had gone out or not Oh dear and there was no contact at all department er it got really chaotic and erm of course computers didn't help in the slightest because er, I think the er, I may be wrong about this but as I understood it erm the computer programmer worked for West Suffolk but at the time of reorganization he'd got himself another job. So that erm, nobody really knew how to program the erm, the thing and in those days they used to have the punched cards, you know, erm they still have this Yes. and erm they used to have to send these cards to Birmingham to be processed and there used to be a van going out from er Milner House to Birmingham. I think two or three times a week and erm, they had er, er a lot of girls over at Birmingham who used to prepare these cards for the computer Mm. but erm, it was erm rather silly really Right well, thank you Mr it's been a a long and varied career It's erm eventful. it hasn't really been erm all that eventful but at least by staying put rather than going off at, I, I'd, I'd thought about, at one time, erm emigrating to New Zealand but er erm when I found out what the conditions were like out there I decided to stay and er Mm. we had the ch young children then so that erm all in all I am not sorry that things turned out as they did because erm as luck would have it, you know, Mm. it's er worked quite well. Mm and er I managed to get er do forty odd years and erm now I'm quite happy on the pension that they gave me . You retired in nineteen eighty? Er July nineteen eighty, yes. Mm. I could have gone on of course erm, longer but er I wanted to do erm, I've always wanted to write and so I've er been able to do that since. Mm. And erm, my wife who's a teacher had erm a very devastating experience just after I retired so it was erm, it was as well that I retired when I did because I was then able to stay at home and er Yes. see after her. Yes, That about su summons it up I think. Right, well thank you very much Mr . Your eagle eyes will have noticed that there is someone sitting in this room with a tape recorder, and erm, it's it's, should be quite interesting for you to know what he is doing. His name's Jim. And he's Hello Jim. Alright. being friendly. and he is, he is recording you, erm, He's recording you because there is a project under way which is known as the British National Corpus. Which may say, seem to you, something to do with dead bodies, but it's not. Erm, but it is a body, it's corpus as in body and and what the British National Corpus is doing, is putting together a massive amount of spoken English, erm, from all sorts of different contexts, and one of the contexts which they want spoken English from is an educational context, and so they are having to record you people, as they've been recording some other people erm, in other educational institutions around the country and so on. The idea is, is not to make any judgements about you people, for instance, the whole thing is totally anonymous but it's to hear the state of the language as it is, I I assume, at the moment, and what's going to happen is, they're collecting a massive quantity of erm, of words. They are transcribing it all, it runs into millions, but I can never remember how many millions. They're transcribing it all, there are people going to transcribe all of this, write it all out, attach grammatical tags to us, and this body of work is going to be,t available to students of language, and so on. So erm, you are not to be, in any way, I mean, I'm going to talk at you anyway, most of the afternoon unfortunately, but I do want you to respond. But don't be inhibited by, and don't perform for, the microphone that's there, because that's that's not so just forget it's there. What it's about. What? Just totally forget it's there, right? Yes. Yes. But that doesn't mean turn on a display of the kind of language that you wouldn't normally use Mm. when you're, forgetting it's there. Yes. Right, what I want to work on today, is and 's reminded me, that incidentally that that essay which you're due to write in class on the Monday we come back after half term, there isn't a Monday we come back after half term. Brilliant. Students aren't in on that Monday. So it will have to be in for Thursday of that week, so you've got another couple of days in that first week back. Right, I want to pick up on I've started looking at your tests, the history of language ones and I've actually marked only the section where you actually re-wrote the er, early modern English extract, and I want to pick up on that instantly, and talk about that and the ways you you, the way you can go around, no I'm not gonna give you that. The way you can treat this task. The editorial task, I might tell you, is half of one of your exam papers. That is it's worth half the marks on one of your three papers. So it is worth one sixth of your overall mark for this subject. Is the way you go about a task exactly the same as that one I gave you the other day. But it won't necessarily be, erm,an a some language taken from a historical period. There have been other examples used, though not many that aren't historical, but there have been, for instance, there was an account of a road accident, I'll give most of these to you as exercises. An account of a road accident written by someone who's learning English, and had a very limited vocabulary on it. Erm, so the editorial task each each time is exactly the same, you had to rewrite the extract in modern standard English, and then comment on any differences, and explain why those differences occurred, but they are quite often, erm, eighteenth or nineteenth century extracts from books, descriptions of things, erm, dialect, descriptions of of events, and things like that, and last year's one, on, the one of last year's paper was er, a middle English one. It was a letter written by er erm, a sixteenth century woman to her husband, and again it had commenting on the language used. So it's it's vital that you get this exercise right and it, and you mustn't just think of it as part of the study of History of Language, it's not, it's, it's a er a definite part of your course. Which will be coming up whatever form of language is used. I will give you this to look at. Now the major problem that came up the other day was that, I thought I had given you a very easy extract to translate into modern English, and it turned out not to be such an easy extract, obviously. Erm, it wasn't the first sentence didn't give you any problems whatsoever, er, well, very few people, but the problems came after that. You will need some paper. At the bottom of the page I had suggested how you should go about this exercise throw paper around the floor, that's all the paper there is here, so. okay, don't take too much, and that is to first make a literal translation and then, to try and put it into idiomatic English. Now if you don't know these terms, I'm sure you have come across them really Literal. What, well, well you define for me, what's a literal translation? Word for word. Word for word. Yes. Why might that not work as a, as a idiomatic translation. What does idiomatic mean? Making sense Ideally Making sense in sentence Idiomatic means more than just making sense in English. Correct word order. grammatic use of Mm, grammatic yes. It also means using the kinds of erm, vocabulary and phraseology which are normally used. It in in in every day usage. Right so, a literal translation might turn out to be very stiff and stilted, and not the way most people would use language. So, the there there is a distinction in terms there, you've got to do a literal translation first. Because if you don't, if don't do a word by word translation, as some of you did, you, you may miss the meaning of certain words, and that might totally alter your perception of what's being said, and then what you should,wh when you've done a literal translation, you will have a very stiff erm,u unusual version of it, written in modern English vocabulary but you'll find that word ordering and things like that won't be appropriate, and sometimes the vocabulary aren't the kind of words that would normally be used now. Therefore you will need to to rewrite that in a way which mean something to modern erm, readers. So, can we just look at the extract that was given, what language would it have been translated from, incidentally? Old English. Middle English. Early modern. Use your brain, look at, look at what the extract is drawn from. Something called De Proprietibus Rerum Bartolomeus Anglicus. Latin. From Latin, yes. Erm, so it's it's in itself is translation into English of some earlier writing. But the important thing as far as we were concerned, as is that the translation was done by John de Trevisa in thirteen ninety-eight, and some of you like Sam, were able to quote the middle English period and place thirteen ninety-eight towards the end of the middle English period, it's really on the verge of early modern English. Other people, for who, anything which isn't modern, is old English, claimed that it was old English. No, nobody in this room did. Okay, word for word. Give me modern words through the first line, please, Darren. Among all flowers er, of the world, the flower of the rose is erm Try and say it. Which one. Say that next word. Finish the sentence. The flower of the rose is Right. And And what? Beareth. Beareth, yeah. Ye prize. Ye prize. Yes, so any words here that that look unpronounceable, turn out when you say them, to be modern, to be exactly the same as modern words, except that of course, you don't have an f ending, as you know. Th What's happened is that this spelling,th this reversal of spelling has occurred in English, as some of you obviously don't seem to know and your modern English versions you speak used it. Erm, and beareth, there, what does beareth mean? Amelia? To bear something, it beareth the prize. The rose beareth the prize. Who knows that to bear means? Shows. Mm. Shows. No, that's that's bare as in B A R E I suppose. exhibitionism. Oh, it has. No, it hasn't. Holds Mm, yeah al almost holds so it's obviously a word which has now become erm, obsolete for you people. To bear something, means to to carry it. Yeah, did you? Well you didn't say it very loudly I don't know, interesting. Okay, the next sentence, erm, Tanya translate. Erm, I just read it or Yeah,, try try and erm, put it into literal translation, to modern English. Erm,. Erm, through its virtues and sweet smell. No, no, sorry. Do it word for word. We'll do that later. Oh, erm, because of virtues and sweet smelling savour. Right, and by cause I think, by cause is is is literally what's said there, but of course, yes that that we now read that as because. Virtues, and sweet, sweeter savour. Now again, is the word savour lost? What's savour refer to? To If something's savoury, what sense are you, are you using it. taste. Taste, yeah. Savour literally means taste. Biscuits are savoury. So are crisps. Indeed, yes. So it literally means taste in this case. Virtues, I mean you know what virtues are, although again people try to smell it, smell it, spell it that way. It's actually is spelt in modern English with an i, and virtue in this sense, in what what sense would it mean. It's the cause, ah, sorry, it's the cause, it's the rose has virtues. What sense of the word virtue are we er using this, we're not saying it's virtuous and it behaves well. What are we saying? That it's good Good, goodness, yeah, beneficial, qualities. Savour erm, the problem, why, why, I don't think any of you grasped the fact that we're talking there about savour, is that erm, you probably don't realise that historically, the rose was much eaten. Ro rose petals erm, were eaten, in fact, there was a thriving erm, industry near Paris for drying rose petals which were used in medicine, and also were used erm, to crystallise and to they were put in cakes and things like that. And in fact, have you ever eaten Turkish Delight? Mm. Yes. That the the flavour in Turkish Delight is rose water, that's that's actual essence of rose petals. And rose water, and rose was used a lot in cooking er, until, until quite recently, and it can still be. Right the next sentence, erm Zakhia? Yes. Do a literal A literal? Yeah. Full by fairness, they feed the sight and place the smell by odour the touch by soft handling. Okay, go back on that. Place is the interesting one there. Say the word. Placeth. Plaseth, plaseth, by fairness they feed the sight and plaseth the smell. Plaseth the smell. Plaseth. Place this place. You're obviously not going to get it, are you, it's another vowel change. Erm It's, it's a yeah, it's a vowel, it's a vowel change and it's simply please, pleaseth. They please, I thought in context you would have got that. A fairness they feed the sight, and pleaseth the smell by odour. Mm. Like their odour pleases the the sense of smell. No? The touch by soft handling. Then I, I think that the next sentence is actually the hardest one in literal terms, but, word for word is easy enough. Erm, Sam, could you try that, the last sentence. What do I have to do, just say it Say it in in modern English, word for word. And, would be it's supposed to withstand. Withstand, yeah. And, and remember I gave you this word, that was suc succours Succours. Succours. virtues against many illnesses fr and evils. Right. Against many, yes said illnesses and evils. So in literal terms you have, you've given me, among all flowers of the world, the flower of the rose is chief and beareth the prize, or and bears the prize, because obviously the erm, suffix for the third person singular is going to be, you're going to use the modern version. And by cause of virtues or, and, because of virtues and sweet smell and savour. For by fairness they feed the sight and pleaseth the smell by odour, the touch of soft handling, and withstandeth succoureth by virtue, and and, sorry, withstands and succours by virtue against many sicknesses and evils. The problems that that you raise, now some of you ob obviously, didn't recognise some of those words, like please, pleases, I don't think anyone recognised, and full meaning of things like savour, but what the the problem was the changes in word order. Look at the second sentence, no, the third sentence. For by fairness they feed the sight and pleaseth the smell by odour, the touch by soft handling. What's it actually saying? Paul, you looked up at the times. No, don't look at that, Elliott. Look at the, at the thing at the top. What's fairness. What's sweet smells Yeah, well that's just, that's just two words th it's actually saying three different things. What does fairness mean in this case? Oh, we've caught another one, haven't we? Beauty. What's this. Beauty, yes. Beauty, fair, fair to be fairness to look at. For by, for by beauty they feed the sight and pleaseth the smell by odour, the touch by soft handling. See if you can paraphrase that, into, into modern standard English. runs down to these versions underneath. and so on. I shouldn't have given it to you. Yeah. That's why I wasn't going to hand this out right at the beginning, because I wanted to make you work at it a bit more, er, then you can, when you've got those two versions written underneath. It's it's actually a very simple statement that's been made in that sentence. But, by their beauty they feed the sight, yeah. They please, they please the smell by odour, so their odour pleases the sense of smell. Now the thing is we, we can refer to sight and touch and hearing, but we don't refer to the sense of smell just as smell, in modern English. They don't, you don't say er, this this pleases my smell, because my smell actually has a totally different meaning. Erm, but that's the meaning in which it it's meant here, so by fairness they feed the sight, by their odour they please the sense of smell, and the softness of them, the the softness to touch, pleases the touch, pleases the sense of touch. You What some you were erm, erm, put off by there, was the fact that these senses, I referred to just by their noun, like smell and touch, and you didn't recognise there, was reference to to the whole sense. The last sentence is is the most difficult one, because of this word withstand, which of course is is very rarely used in this sense now. But you can have the sense of withstand as something, you know, people, people withstanding an onslaught. In fact, it's used by all commentators, who often use very erm, old fashioned erm, vocabulary,, withstanding the onslaught of the opposing team, and things like that. Well, you wouldn't actually use the that kind of vocabulary in every day life. Erm, and it means to, standing up against, erm, rejecting, oh no, I don't think rejecting is is But, but I mean I suppose if we take sense of standing up against, it's saying, and it stands up against, and it withstands against many sicknesses and evils and inserted into the middle of that, and succoureth it by virtue, so it helps by its goodness to withstand sicknesses and evils. So the process that you have to carry out, then is to find a way of transferring your literal translation once you've worked out word for word what is being said, into terms which mean something to a modern reader or, listener. But the other important element is that you have to reflect the style of the original, look at the notes I've made at the bottom of the page, please. So, you're, you're trying to find something which is in the language of the modern speaker. But also which reflects the style of the original, and that means the for instance in the second sentence, no, third sentence, for by fairness they feed the sight and pleaseth the smell by odour and touch by self han , by soft handling. You actually have a sense of style, there are three different sections to that description and you have, and there is actually some repetition involved erm, by by starting each, by by this reference to the sight, the smell, the touch, and you have to, and and that's the kind of sty stylistic element that you have to incorporate into your version and I put a note at the bottom too, that there are times when you can't totally update this kind of work. For instance then, the very last point being made up in that rose thing, is, it says that it protects against sicknesses and evils. Now obviously you can translate the idea of something being a preventative about illness or sickness, but it's very difficult to suggest in idiomatic modern English that roses can be a protection against evils, because you really, we really don't have that kind of concept, normally now, although there are many uses of erm, groups of people who might retain such a concept, and if something like that arises, you obviously can't make it idiomatic, because there's just no way it's going to work idiomatically in English. Okay, look underneath, the, oh sorry, in between, underneath, underneath the box at the top. The first version there, is one that I did before I even looked at your, at at any of the homeworks, and I got myself into some awkwardness of trying to translate virtues, and ended up with beneficial properties, erm, which is hardly perhaps very idiomatic and the one underneath that is Jemma's and the absent writer not that she could be embarrassed because she's not here, erm, and she's actually simplified more than I have, by half a line, you'll understand. Have a look at that, I mean, it would have been better if Jemma was here, because I don't want to criticise, I mean, I used Jemma's because it was actually probably the best one that was done by anyone in the group. Are there any ways in which you think that it does or does not work particularly well, looking at hers, mine's, mine's more boring, hers, she actually departs from the, from the text more. Compare the the text at the beginning with hers, the the the Middle English text with hers, and tell me, is there anything which she has caught well, or anything which she has missed out, or look at the first sentence, is she right there? She missed out the beareth the prize Right , so there's, there's there's one actual reference gone. She doesn't repeat flowers. No, and I didn't do that until I read someone Niall's and he had repeated flowers and I thought why has he repeated flowers and realised that in fact that it is necessary. Yeah, because the point that's being made is that it's only the flower of the rose which has all these properties, it's not the whole bush itself, presumably. What about this second sentence? Are you happy with that? Ben? Why? No. Why, you mean, you mean you're not happy with it, why? I don't know clue. I was, I wasn't Oh, right. It doesn't in the middle English bit, it's doesn't say that it's a strong smell. Right, that's true. Yeah, it doesn't say it was a strong smell, no. Well, else doesn't,wh wh what else does it say in that sentence. Look are you, are you looking second sentence, Jemma's second sentence: This is due to a strong and sweet smell, in middle English it says, by cause of virtues and sweet smell and savour. It says something about taste. So it's the taste thing, and and also the virtues element is, has gone, hasn't it. It actually, that actually wasn't the sentence I made, I can't count, it was actually the next sentence I wanted you to look at. Because this is the one I want you to to be particularly be conscious of. What about her version of the third sentence: It's beautiful to look at, wonderful to smell, as well as being extremely soft to touch. Anthony? What? I thought that was pretty good. It's pretty good, it's pretty good in conveying, the meaning. In what way that, isn't it pretty good? Tanya? You're happy with it. He really loves it, it's Elliot. The third sentence it's beautiful to look at etc comment on Jemma's version. Well it's good, cos er, in the old English one. It's It's not old English. Sorry, the middle English one. It's er,three sections, it's er, that's sentences as well, it's got like, you know, using commas and er. The same sentence structures. Yeah, that's it. Er, right, so stylistically she has erm, she's picked up, and she's actually picked up the patterning as well of that, whereas in the middle English one, it was,th the sight, the odour, the touch, no, it was the smell, the touch, she has used an infini an infinitive of a verb, which gets away from the problem, that we don't use nouns for these things. To look at, to smell, to touch, so that she's, she's erm, actually found a way of getting the same patterning. Erm, but in fact, she's she's missed the third sentence and, where she said that the rose has withstood many sicknesses and evils, erm, whereas in fact, what it says is it withstands and succours against sicknesses and evils, which is a totally different element. We can't put. Right, can you put that away somewhere, that sheet. No this Put that away. No. Yes, I'm being indecisive. Yes, you don't need it for what we're going to do now Oh, this is actually from varieties, this extract and erm, I'm giving it to you, cos varieties here, but because the other element which we haven't considered is the actual appearance on the page of erm, middle English well this is actually early modern English. But it's still right on that, on that turning point, it's a hundred and fifty years after the John Trevisa theme that we just looked at. But the language is very similar, erm, although it's into the early modern English period. Have a quick erm, read through it, please, out loud, everybody, just quietly to yourselves, but read it out loud, because it makes much more sense, as they sound. Okay, okay, you've got struck once you get yourself round all the letter forms and so on. Does anybody know roman numerals? Yeah. Yes? Yes. So what chapter is it at the top? Ten. Ten. Oh, no, eight. Eight. Eight, right. Erm, line line four and five, how many days. Six. This is a nice mixture. A hundred and Something Fifty. Fifty. Fifty. A hundred and fifty days. Erm, what about line, oh I see, it's not line a hundred, the lines are numbered in an odd way. Four, erm, the, on this line marked five, How The something, the date. The seventeenth. Seventeenth day of the Seventh month. Seventh month. until the tenth month and after the end of? Fifty. Sixty days. It's forty. Sixty. Forty, forty, yeah. Cos the x is before the okay. Forty days. So does everybo , does everybody know their roman numerals? Yeah. Yeah. Good. In that case, erm, Niall would you read out the first er paragraph there. God remembered Noah and all is that an f No. Can anyone tell him? Beasts Beasts. Beasts. Right yes. cattle were with him in the Ark, and God made the wind blow, is it upon, upon the earth and waters and the fountains the windows of heavens were opened. No, it doesn't say opened. It's that same letter form all the time. The one that looks like an f. No. And the of heaven was within and the waters returned to the earth and abated after the end of a hundred and fifty days. A hundred and fifty days. Okay. Erm, let's just read to the end, erm,can I pounce on, erm, Matthew will you read to the end. With the Ark rested upon the mountains of Ararat, the seventeenth day of the seventh month and the waters went away and decreased until the tenth month and the first day of the tenth month, the tops of the mountains appeared, and after the end of forty days, Noah opened the window of the Ark, which he had made and sent forth a raven which went out, ever going and coming again until the waters were dried up upon the earth. Right they dried up upon the earth. Right, they're are obviously some unusual letter forms there. Such as what, Erm, unusual spellings, sorry? The f t for The f, yeah the f s well I'll come back to that. What else. Sorry, the u v interchange you've got that one yes. The y and i, The y and i, I'm sure that is, yes, y and i interchange. Anything else. e suffix. What suffix? The e suffix. The e suffix is used indeed it is, you'll an example Sorry, I can't hear you, what? Listen. I am listening, but you mutter. Like, it's got upon, but it hasn't got the n on the end. Right. But what has it got. A little thing above Yeah, it's got a little mark above the, above the vowel sound. What else in their performance are unusual, They've got double p's everywhere, where where in, today, we've put That's the spelling isn't it, that's the spelling thing rather than actual letter forms. So you've done, you got that f and and f the the the these f's and s's, you've done the u v's where the letters are actually changed. The i y one is is more a spelling convention than actual letter forms. You've got the use of things like upon and, there was something or other else. Heaven, heaven, spelt like that, and so on, so the final n sound is missing. What else have you said, I've forgotten E suffix What? E suffix. E suffix, yes. Again, that's to some extent, it's a grammatical convention, rather than a er a letter form convention, but it is extra letters. There are other things. Where it's got the, it's y Yeah, right. It's got the is spelt, as a y with e a tiny e, written above it. So Some of the Ampersand is used for and, which is not used in modern printing and, and you've got roman, roman numerals. So if you were commenting on such a section as this, you would have a great deal of things to say on, just on the letter forms as they appear on the page. Tell me what the rule is, for the usage of the s's. Look at all the words with s in, and s t's, and you should be able to draw from that, a rule, which is being observed by this printer In which position is the s printed as an f? Before a t. Before a t. Before a t, and there's another one, too. e, e. Before an e. Before an e. After. After an l. After an l. I forgot At the beginning of a sentence, at the beginning of a word. It's. In the middle of the word. Yeah, it's actually, actually, having said that, it erm, it varies, doesn't it. Because in fact, it's in the middle of some words, erm, but as, it's at the beginning of a word, which I now can't find. Just say it. Where? Yes, sorry, you could say it again, is sent on line seven, or whatever is numbered seven. Apart from that, it's only used in the beginnings of words, and the, the one clear rule is that s followed by a t is printed in this way. In fact, there, that that, that's that printing of s, that shape of s, followed by a t, was still used by some printers right up until the twentieth century, because it's actually, you know that when when prints, print was put together by hand, by picking up each letter erm, and as assembling it separately, there was actually always a stop letter, a stop erm, I can't remember what it's called, although I did some printing years ago, erm, lump a die thing with s t already printed together, because because s t is used so much in combination, the erm, printer didn't always have to set up s followed by a t, but had a rack of s t's already prepared and they were often, virtually joined together in this way, and erm, I got, I got an edition of I think it's the novels of Jane Austen printed in the nineteen twenties which still use that shape of s t but used as the small s for any other forms. You'll sometimes find that, there's a distinction made between the s and the, and the f, because the s doesn't have either, either has a tail on it, or doesn't have as big a bar across as the f one. But, in this case, the printer is using exactly the same font obviously, for s and f. The erm, what's the rule that you observe with this dash above a vowel. Before an Sorry? Before an n. It's not, it's not just before it, it's it actually indicates an n, Yeah. doesn't it, yeah. It shows that in fact, the following letter is an n. Erm, I don't have any idea, not knowing very much about this, why that was done. They've done it differently. in one, in one heaven, they've done er, they've just put the n in one, in one heaven, they put the little thing on the e. Yeah. They, it could be something to do with space, erm, I don't really know. Erm, but but, you can easily see what the rule is, can't you, I mean, it's enough, it's enough to be able to recognise that there is a pattern to that usage. This, this word here, this this again, it's a, it's a printer's device. The, is one of the most common words in English and, to set up, the, all the time, would be very time consuming, and so this symbol was obviously available to the printer and obviously what it spells out is ye, which you now know from pubs that are called things like Ye Olde erm, Hen, and and that sort of thing. So it's, it is a, it's a survival in that m , in in that respect, and ye is t , is merely, erm, an archaic version of the, and and would have been pronounced ye. Erm,ampersand is is quite interesting, you all know that symbol, because it's used in handwriting, although nowadays, it, nowadays you would tend to use something like that I don't know, what, do you, do you, do you sort of if you want to write and quickly. Erm, but people who learned copperplate writing used to do this, for their and, Like that. Yes . like that. Like that? Yeah, that's it. Right, and that, that's obviously a,an and if you look at it, it's it's got a few less squiggles than that one, but it's a, it's a version of. Erm, what why is it unusual to see that there? Because it's a shortening. It's a shortener, yes. Carry on. What? It's a shortener and It's formal writing. You don't use that You don't normally see it in print, do you. No, it's it's used it's used in situations where an abbreviation can be made, or er, er, erm, an abstract symbol can be made, but again, this this was used normally in print, even in printing of novels and sermons and erm, and important documents, right up,u you know, up and well into the nineteenth century, before it was considered that that was not formal enough, and that the word and had to be written out formally Are there any words in this section which you can't find a modern English version of easily? There aren't really, are there? In that case, take the first paragraph erm take this first paragraph, you lot over here. The second paragraph, you you three, the third paragraph, you three, and do me an idiomatic version in five minutes. Erm. Now you want to, if you want to sub-divide that first paragraph, if one of you took it to: and the waters ceased, and the other half took it from: and the fountains of the deep. So that, can you could give me two, please, give me a literal translation and then an idiomatic one, as if you're doing a modern bible. And you've got five minutes to do both. So one person write, and the other one just say what they're writing. Right, you should have finished this, have you? Yeah. Yeah. Have you three over there? Okay right, stop, stop, stop please, you're out of your heads if you haven't got it on to paper. Now, first section, that's you two, isn't it. No, we're in the second bit. Oh, these two. Right give me this idiomatic first version, please, and any anything which is, which you consider to be not idiomatic. Right I'd like to know So, can you listen to this please , erm, you have to finish in your heads now. Listen to this first one. Now, when you're trying to distinguish whether it's idiomatic or not, don't, you know it's very difficult to find the fine line between something which is formal, and still idiomatic, and something which is idiomatic through being too colloquially informal. I'll try and explain what I mean. Idiomatic means, in,wi with a sort of, with phrasing, with word ordering, with a choice of vocabulary which is immediately recognised what as modern English, but if this thing is written in a formal style then, it is fair enough, that the modern idiomatic version will also be very formal. Idiomatic doesn't mean colloquial. It doesn't have to be in every day speech patterns. If it's a fairly formal written thing, but there, it has got to use word ordering, grammar, punctuation, vocabulary which are those, which are presently used. So are you ready er, to give us a version now, Tanya or Amelia or someone. Come on, Amelia. Are you all working on the same one incidentally or have you got separate ones? No. cos he's done the last bit, And God remembered Noah, the beasts and all the cattle that were with him in the Ark. God made the wind blow upon earth and stop the water. Okay. Everyone listening this time, let's have this once more. To comment on, if the if there's anything there that doesn't read to you as being totally idiomatic. Go again. God remembered Noah, the beasts and all the cattle that were with him in the Ark. God made the wind blow upon the earth and stop the water. You wouldn't say beasts. Say animals wouldn't you. You'd say animals. Right. Okay. Hairy creatures. I used these Yes, but you probably use it in a slightly different context, don't you. You might be using it as an, as an insult. Erm. And you actually did, God remembered Noah and the beasts, didn't you, Yeah, Why did you cut all, at that point? I don't know it was his idea. Erm, cos cos three, stating three things, aren't there, and I thought it would be easy to Sorry, you were stating Well, he was stating God remembered Noah, the beasts and the cattle. He was stating three things. Just God remembered Noah and all the animals. So instead of saying and all the time What are cattle No, no, no, no. That's what I thought Yes, yes, I mean, I think it was, I don't think that removing all actually did anything , but Shh, and only if you're, if you're adding to this, please. So when you got what did you do then. She well, I, read your one Alright Tanya read your one. Erm, God made the wind blow upon the earth and stopped the water. That's right. Right, all I was going to ask was, have you, have you started a new sentence there, or have you got that as part of the original sentence? Started a new sentence. Should you have? Should I have started a new sentence then. If we're in modern standard English. Yeah. So you're going to start a new sen start a new sentence with and. No, I didn't, we didn't. . What did you start it with? It started with Ah, so you cut and. Yes. Yeah. Right. Right. Because another way to have done it, would have been, if you're going to do it all, no, you didn't do it all in one sentence, that's right. If you were going to, you could do it all in one sentence, that that's the other point I was going to make. But you, in modern standard English you wouldn't begin a second sentence with and. No. Because, as you'll remember, it is frowned upon to begin a sentence with and, and I always cross it out in your essays, don't I. Okay, the second section, please. The fountains of the deep and the windows of heaven were stopped and the rain of heaven was forbidden. The waters returned to the earth and after erm, and were calm after a hundred and fifty days. Okay, I think we'd better take this slowly. Alright. First phrase. The fountains of the deep and the Okay fountains of the deep. Idiomatic? No. What, what would have, what would the reference be to, that one could, could possibly use. The sea. I think that's probably just a bit bald, isn't it. Fountains how could you convey the sense of waters,swirl , surging up out of the deep or something. Waves. The raging Currents Currents. The raging currents. The raging currents. Certainly, did you say the fountains of the deep. Certainly the deep, I think, we would very rarely use the deep to talk about the sea now. I don't think we would. I just write down what she says. No! You turned round and said, do it in that one, so I'm doing it in that one, then you changed to to doing it in that one. It weren't my fault. Right. For whatever reason, what,ca can you come up with another version of the fountains of the deep. The raging waves. The what waves. The raging waves. The raging waves of the oceans. The raging waves. Yes. That's pretty, that's pretty dramatic isn't it. Well, it's certainly it's idiomatic. The swirling currents. The deep sea spray. No, I don't know about a spray, I don't know although the fountain the fountain idea, doesn't it. so they could have a shower Shh, people. What you're working towards here, is obviously to say that they were stopped and that this was the end of the flood, so it's got to be something, something very major, and something like swirling currents Current, currents or raging waves does do that, I suppose. What about the windows of heaven. Wha what does the image mean? What's Clouds. Well yeah, what whatever whatever it is that the rain comes through from heaven, something that opens, opens in heaven and lets the rain come through. So if you're doing a a a purely modern translation, what could you use for windows of heaven, and Niall is suggesting clouds, the clouds were stopped, the an and stopped in this sense means closed, the windows of heaven were closed. Possibly well no, cos they, because it then goes on to the rain in heaven, I was going to say, maybe send the rain Clouds cleared. The clouds, the clouds cleared, or were cleared, because it's God doing all of this. Fountains of the deep and windows of heaven were stopped, angry storm The waves of the deep, and the er, clouds were Cloud Cleared, were dispersed, and what have you got next, anyway after that, that that's obviously a very problematic thing, because it's using poetic images which are very difficult to to move into modern standard English, but what have we got for the rain of heaven please ? And the rain And the rain does what? Was forbidden, was stopped. Okay, well yeah, you're changing it as you go now. Yeah. The rain of heaven. We always use that kind of phrase the heavens are falling down. The acid rains, bring it up to date. The rain of heaven. Could you give me another version of that please,. The rain of heaven, in idiomatic standard English. the weather forecast. No. Yes it does. And it, just say the rain. The falling rain. Falling rain, even the rain from the heaven,heav no you can't use heaven's rain in this case, can you. The rain from the sky. Yeah, it's not the heaven I'm objecting to, it's, it's saying the rain of heaven, we we don't use that kind of structure now. We would say the rain from heaven, or erm, heaven's rain. Heavenly rain. Heavenly rain, yes, something like that. Rain which God sent. Erm, was forbidden, and quickly changed that, to was stopped, or was prevented, or was refus was not refused. So carry on, rest of the sentence, please. The waters returned to the earth. from, that's not what it says, though, is it. What? It says, and the waters returned from off the earth. So what's it saying? The waters returned from off the earth. So what's, what, where did they return. To the heaven. To no. Sorry, sorry. They evaporated. They came from the earth, and that's where they returned. Subsided. They subsided, yes. There were waters on the earth, but when the rain stopped, the waters went from off the earth, they went back to the seas, didn't they. Did they still think the Earth was flat in those days? Even, well, almost even at the time when this last translation was doing, but certainly the time the bible was written. What's that got to do with it? Because obviously I'm not very, no it's all right. Why did they think the Earth was flat for? What is it Just popped into my head. Sorry. Why did they think it was flat? Well, you can't actually see a curve can you, when you look around. No, but it's Sorry? like that. Did they actually, they thought then it just ended like drop off . Literally. The fear, the fear when when voyages of exploration were going out right up to the renaissance, was that the boats would actually run off the end of the earth, and fall into a void. Who is it that went over, first? Went over? You mean over the edge? No, I mean Where? Oh, I know what I'm talking about. Are you talking about Columbus? Yeah. In fourteen ninety-two. Yes. But that's beside the point. So, shh please, Tanya, the waters returned from off the earth, so y , it's saying the waters erm, ran off the earth, subsided from Waters subsided. Drained off. That's what he had really. Carry on. And were calm after a hundred and fort fifty days, after Yeah, okay. I think we'll, we'll just about move on to the next paragraph please, is that you lot Paul. The Ark rested on top of the Ararat mountains, on the seventeenth of July. The water There was a lovely there was a lovely slow reaction there. As everybody thought, July? seventeenth day of the seventh month I mean, depends where your counting the months from, and I don't know biblically, did they start in January? Didn't, didn't they mean that as in a period of time they'd been stuck in the Ark. Yeah do that. Well, I don't know. Alright. Paul carry on. The water continued to evaporate until October. Carry on. And on the first, on the first of October, the tops of the mountains appeared. Okay. You always know That's what I'd say anyway. What. You always know when Paul does a version, it's going to be his own version. But you do have to, you do have to be aware of being too clever for your own good,because they only want a translation. Erm, to do a complete re-writ vers re-written version is often what you are, what you are allowed to do, but I think you will al , also need to show them a fairly literal translation, first. So anyway, you did rested upon Ararat mountains and Elliot was arguing with that one, saying the mountains of Ararat. I mean, the mountain is usually referred to as Mount Ararat, isn't it, I didn't know,several of them, erm, is Ararat the place where the mountains were, or is it actually the name of the mountains. The name of the mountains. No. It's the place where the mountains were. A mountain range. No, it says Mount Ararat. Yeah. So what? So yeah, I'm not sure whether it, whether whether one should translate it as the mountains of Ararat, or the Ararat mountains. Certainly modern usage would suggest the name going before the mountains wouldn't it, and that's what you've opted for, and the the July one, I really don't know about. Erm, But. The waters went away and decreased. I think in relation to the fact that we were talk , that the earliest earlier thinkers about the water running off the earth. I don't think you could assume that they evaporated. They must of, how else, what else . I would, I would say subsided . No, ran down, you know, ran off into the ocean, ran into the rivers and off into the ocean, that way. I think all you need to say is they Subsided. subsided, decreased. Got less. Died down. died down. The assumption that they evaporated, is not there. I thought that, though. Sorry? Nothing. You have, you have taken the word evaporated out of the air, and it's it's an assumption, you must cross that out. Well, it's a valid assumption, cos where, waters'll go evaporate It it gets evaporated eventually. If you er, if the people of West Sussex a couple of weeks ago, when there was flooding around Chichester, they're actually going to wait for the waters to evaporate. Not in the middle of winter. It'd be gone within a few hours. That's because it soaks into the earth. drains. Drains. Yeah. Evaporates like I think you need to tidy up a bit. puddles on concrete. It's not going to sink into the concrete, is it? Unless they're on concrete it's very shallow, and and evaporation is possible, when your talking about floods on land, yes, it's going to seep into the earth, it's gonna run down run down the drain, then. I remember when I was Yeah. Okay. Apart from that, I think we can accept a erm, that this th th the that that's a fairly reasonable meaning. What about the last one, please, whose gonna read that. Darren loudly. Listen, please. Shh. At the end of forty days Noah opened the window of the Ark, that he had made and sent out a raven which came and went until the waters upon the earth had dried up. Yeah well, did everyone hear that? No. could we have it again with a bigger voice? At the end of forty days Noah opened the window of the Ark Shh, shh, no, please, listen. He had made and sent out a raven which came and went until the waters upon the earth had dried up. And sent out a raven, what? Which came and went until the waters upon the earth had dried up. Right, I see. Which came and went is there, in some way I think you've lost a bit of meaning there. In came and went, because it's got, which went out ever going and coming again, the ever, aspect has gone, so how could you get that. Or came and went continually, or something like that. Constantly. Went back. And the last, shh, please the last part of the sentence I Erm, upon the earth, hang on, and went until the waters upon the earth had drained. well, okay, right what I would like you to do, on your bit of paper On your, on the sheet of paper that you've got, could you now, that, that sheet, could you, write down, please, different letter form differences, and put a sub-heading that says, something like: letter forms,the other one of these was that with the y with the little t's above it. That one and that, so you've got, one, two, three, four, five, six different sorts of letter form changes to comment on. Could you, I I suggest you do it on the same sheet that's got the th the I can't see a copy, Sorry. actually do it on this sheet, somewhere on there, so you'll have a revision of Make a list of the wheth of the letter form changes, Right. Then make a list of some of the obvious spelling changes, which I'm going to ask you about in a moment. What just do what we've really just said? Yeah. Just summarise. On the sheet. On this sheet, cos then you've got it for revision. Yeah. Oh, on this sheet. On that sheet. Okay. And what you need to do is, obviously indicate what the modern version is, next to that shut up, alright. Paul. I was going to Elliot. Just do it. Can you just do that. Ah. Don't do the i y, e one, because we'll take that as a spelling and grammatical change. Was it, was the s t one because of printing. Well, yeah, because it was a traditional grouping, but, the use of the, of the, of the long round shape for an s, was an early form, anyway, and you see, it's used, it's not used just for s t, there are several cases where it's used, as purely as an s. Even though exactly the same letter form is used, same type form is used as for the f Good. Hello. George George. Want a scratch? Mm do you want a scratch? Come on then, there, I can't reach, come on then, that's a good boy there you are you like that? Gonna give us a kiss, give us a kiss then, come on. Give us it, give us a kiss, that's a good boy. There you are Oh, oh, oh ah There she blows, it's your mama hello, yeah we've been up half er, since half past, about eight o'clock yeah, we'll be round at nine o'clock, okay, bye . You don't look very well this morning ma. We just had to stop half way. Well we're not as far this way. You should of said, I could've borrowed a chair. yes love, come on then ma, can you manage? We almost there? We're only just walking in here. Yeah. In here, don't run. I know. That's why you can't there you go ooh it's lower than what I thought it were. Eh? I said it's lower than what I thought it were hello well I think it would be easier to go straight down here and walk out other door, one of other doors, it's not as far I don't think, the way I've come it's not, it's quite a way like what er it's twenty past nine, appointment's at half past innit? Nah, not being papered till next week never know, well it can't be any worse than any other time really can it? I don't know, they've sold out a dozen at Broadway this week, well int last fortnight, so White Gates were telling me, so, well if we do, we do, if the bungalow goes before we sell well, we'll have to come and live with me mum until we find another one . I saw Johnny yesterday, he started coming to manor for his petrol he went to Gateway, Kwik Save whatever you call it Tesco. one o'clock int morning, ah yeah, what, what you, what time do you go, five o'clock? I used to like that shift, oh innit alright for some? Aye, can me mum borrow your single bed? Well it, it's been stupid this laid on this settee falling down back, it's blinking ridiculous, yeah, we've just got back from hospital and they'll send her a letter for er, to make an appointment for her to go back, to see what the treatment they're gonna give her, so, will it go in Pete's car? No, I'll have to ring our Carl then, see if he can shift it, I mean she might as well be laid down here watching telly as upstairs laid in bed uncomfortable, you know yeah once you get in bed you'll be like well it's hard lines she's having . Okay I'll ring our Colin anyway and see what he's doing, yeah okay, tarrah then . Mm, he didn't wanna go to work. Shut door. I can't I'm going to er What, what's our ? No Oh, oh God they're never in, they're not. I told you they wouldn't be in. Came June now rang him only all day Tuesday started school when Sasha have to ring him later. I don't know, I rang from what time, weren't it? Yeah. When I got that letter June and, were it Tuesday? And I rang that on and off right to ten to four and they weren't in. Cos usually never in when I ring. Mind you, I don't I, I think it were yesterday morning I oh no it were Monday morning. No it were Monday when in here cos I was oh I were, Gavin were wanting some toast with jam on and I'd only got a little bit like that, I says oh you'll have to wait while your Aunty Margaret brings some more tomorrow. Is it tea you're after? I walked out. Do you want tea June? No I'd rather have coffee. I mean I'd rather have tea, sorry, yeah. I wished you'd make up your mind. Shut the door. I can't shut door I will. Which teapot is it? Does it matter what teapot you make it in? in the metal one Oh what's up with this? when I'm watching it. What? That settee. The chairs are not so bad cos they don't lean as far back as settee back No. but the back of the settee goes right back I know it looks nice, that's about all I'll say for it. Mm, it's not bad. still on me right across here and It's not that bad. right, right round here. You can feel it, it's Yeah I know it's cold. Told ya, I know when I were in hospital I had that stuff on me you know it were terrible even though it was That's right even though it's about seventy degrees all time it still felt cold That's how I were on Monday when I were full of cold, I went to bed in end, cos it were warmer. Do you want the settee pulling up a bit? Yeah, it'll be warmer. Er sit down I can manage with it further up here. Probably set fire. It'll not set fire. Er come, come in middle of day, she says I wondered wh , why you were coming to It's a hell of a long wire on that phone int it? Oh your teapot's like my arse how much sugar want, one ma? Eh? I thought you said three that er, them teabags are not very good are they? That what? Them tea bags. What do you want then for ninety nine P? A cup of tea ma. I've shut the door now I've finished running about With door instead of handle You know no matter what I do it's always bloody wrong. I'm glad, he reminds me of me dad, you put door handles on doors to open em you don't use 'em for shutting Says er last night who went and got a bath and left every door in the house open It's alright. Yeah, it's alright for you, you were in a nice warm bath, I was downstairs. You're in a, you're in a permanently heated house love. No that's right, it's small coal like, what they fetch last lot like Mm. and it all sticks together like that when you put it on Mm in a big clump. I can't say I'm looking forward to going back to bloody coal central heating either. Oh it's nice. I know it's nice to see it isn't that it's It's nice. cleaning a mucky fire out again. Well I don't have to do that, that's the er I'll probably go gas, when they get gas down there the only thing that you want to see me, I get up three times to rake ashes er out and then I go int the kitchen in that cupboard, gerra newspaper and I'm here screwing it up and throwing it on fireplace. What for? Cos er they're still in bag and I'm very Do they go out every night like? Yeah, they're only in because they two big logs on What happened to the other fire grate with electric? Give it our Colin, I never liked it Albert, I didn't want that one. It were a damn sight better bloody thing than that. It was a novelty to No it weren't ma, it were, it were it did its job, that was keep your heating up, cos you could blow it up and it I know. ten minutes and you couldn't breath in here, but that Bloody big bedroom like freeze Mother we've got our heating on all times. yeah but look at Extremely cold outside you know you've got to buy your coal now June and loo and I mean I'm not complaining I'm just saying where I used to put two, two bags on a day, and have it up at number five and six we've got it on one bag a day and it's on nu less than number one. I'm not complaining duck, I'm just telling you now it's extremely cold outside, that's why it's cold up there. They must of been mad. I've seen I've seen it been down sub zeros outside and it's been eighty degrees in our house. well they've got three bloody cars in there there I said to 'em over there I says er have you er moved in then? Got settled? He says not quite he says but, we're, we're nearly there. Want some new windows in. He says to me he says to me he's, I've been two or three time while he been int garden he says every time you come in here you lock your car, he says why you're only int garden, I says well I've lived round here for a lot of years, ha,I says and when you've lived here long enough I says you'll be locking your car every time you get it out. He says why? I says because things go missing. It's more force of habit though You, it's a habit I've got into. He's been out the car and locked me in it. Yes, even if I go anywhere, if I go to, go into a shop I always lock the car always. You're supposed to, that's how they get pinched. The point, the point is you know it, it is a deterrent pinch our Colin's. There's nothing wrong with Colin's. Oh it'll stop him moaning won't it? I'll have a look at it today I don't think it's anything, from what she told me yesterday, I think it's electrical. Ooh that firm's gone bad with Jess. What firm? You know Sure Start Yeah. They've had his car three times to repair it Yeah. and the last time he said take it away for a week and see if it's any better, so he took it away and it were no better so he took it down to Paul and somebody from come and had a look at it and said it's injector problems Mm. so Sure Start rang him up and said how's your car er Mr , he said it's no better now than when I fetched it to you, three oil changes since and two months since and they said well what you gonna do about it? He said I'm not gonna do nowt about it, he says well, we've put a part on it that cost us a hundred and forty pound he says. Where's me cigs then? He says well I'm not paying you for it, he says you put it on and it don't work, he says well we want it back, he says well you take it back and put my parts on that you took off, he says we can't, he says well I'm not paying you hundred and forty pound for a part that don't work and he says, anyway he says er, are you sure it's a hundred and forty pound he said, an oil filter cost ten pound at some places but they're actually only two so if you di divide it by five that's forty pounds, he says I'll pay you forty pound, but I'm not paying you no hundred and forty he said. Can you pass me me June find me bills. You should, we told you you should of had a little dog like ours and it could of ripped them up for ya. We don't get bills. Oh well mine Well they've sent you a letter from hospital. Oh. Open it and see what it says. Don't bother coming this week. Cancelled your appointment. Cancel your appointment Oh not another one. What's the matter? You've gotta go back again. Why? Tuesday fourth of February, what's a C T examination? Don't know. It's to where we've just been. That is Department of medical Yeah. C T scan examination, that's what you've just had. Yeah. Will you please attend for your C T examination on Tuesday the fourth of February nine o'clock, if you cannot attend at this time please ring extension Oh well Aye, I'll ring now. This is a painless examination which would take bet er, hang on,this is a painless examination which will take between thirty and sixty minutes, there may be some waiting time at the start of the examination depending on whether we have to fit in an emergency, be prepared for this. Preparation, do not eat or drink four hours before your appointment . Ah. If you are it's, it's a chest scan, you'd better ring and see what they have to say, I know. Well that's what I thought I was going for this morning as well as that one. Who's it from? Doctor . Well. Er fag I'm not touching you with your You were, you were gonna set bloody fire to me Well move then. you bugger Extension what was it? Tell them we've just come back from that . Were it ? I don't know the number on there int it that Can I have ex extension please? She said to me when they find out what it is she could soon have you on your feet, but she thought it were that shadow on me lung. Yeah. She said if it's that shadow on your lung we'll soon have you on your feet Hello er, I'm phoning on behalf of Mrs Ada er she's got to come in for a scan on the fourth of February, nine o'clock, now we've only just got back from the hospital today, cos she oh, she had to go today for one, yeah, and we've just got back home and the post's been in between time and we've just got this letter for her to attend on February, I wonder if there's, if you've had a mix up? Or if it's a different one. Pardon? Ultra radio scan or something, yeah oh yeah, so she's, she will, we've gotta keep that appointment, okay then love yeah, okay bye, bye love . No you attend that one ma. I don't know why they don't just keep the to- bloody-gether . It's a different type. No. It's a different type of scan altogether. Yeah. What a carry on. So er Not as long as the kids have their sandwiches Them other buggers there's er er jammy eh? there's er Do you get a free meal like? No, eh, I've had them sandwiches when I had that other Wednesday the fourth of February. Oh . That's another week again innit? Will be on Tuesday? Yeah. Coming what . No mother, no no. Er June here here. No. no ma will Don't have to drop me, you're not me taxi, don't matter how many times you have to take me, here. No, no, you're not, no I'm not, well pay us next time. Well just take that, here, I haven't No. just took it out me pension now. Well save it No listen in case one of us wants cigs save it in case we run if we, if we need, if we're desperate if we, if we and we need some cigs some time. I'll get it next time. I've still got that and twenty besides. That's alright. If we run short of cigs some time we will Told Albert it don't run on fresh air. It's alright. Well, it doesn't do so bad. It's usually cigs we run out of not petrol. Well get, get some cigs with it then. Look we'll get 'em We will mum when we need 'em we've got enough money for the time being, if ever we get desperate like last time. Bloody hell I might have pools up and win a million pound this week, what the hell I wanna take your money for? You're the same as me I'm not. as long as you've got two hands and you can work for money you'll never bloody win any. Mm. There's a draught, it must of come from that window there I think. Keep that door shut then. Eh? Door shut. Are you working today did you say? Yeah. I'll give Albert Oh it don't shut because of that thing. No I know, that's what she said, she'd wondered where that were coming from cos it were right up here. I thought it come out that window. She were laughing when I showed her that letter I got, cos she got one the same morning,, she said, and it said, and you can go round and talk to him. Ha. So they mustn't put, you know, their full name or whatever Yeah. first name Oh. said you want to put 'em in a bag and shake 'em up. Ah well Oh I don't mind paying you, it'd cost me that for a bloody taxi. That's what we're here for ma, that's what we're here for don't need paying When you run out of cigs erm Aye No they were out all day Tuesday, I don't know where they were, I rang right from phoning our June when I got that letter twenty five past ten and so ten to four were ringing on and off and there were nobody so I don't know where they were. Well, mind you June don't know what the hell she's ringing me half the time, because she bloody rings and, half of time it's Well I rang 'em and they weren't in Albert, our Colin Don't they go to er, school today? Not Tuesday that's where I thought they were er Tuesday Oh. but when I kept ringing, you know, because they generally call here Mm. they didn't come and I thought, I tell ya I kept ringing right up till ten to four on and off I don't know where they are because Unless he's gotta job I shouldn't I shouldn't, even so doesn't go with him well it don't look like there's anybody in. I wonder if Margaret's had to work she'd come home Friday dinner, with that sickness and diarrhoea. Yeah Has she started? I don't know our, our, very rare we'll ring em John was down well the same day as she dropped that little potty off for our Kay Yeah. and he said she was poorly. He didn't stop here Albert, he just dropped them things off. Yeah He says I'll go and drop this potty off at our June's, I'll take No our Colin's car and he said and I'll shop and that's when he told me about Margaret. They'll be round er father's or somewhere daft like that or at their Geoff's mm what's Pete coming round for? Mm, probably got some work to do, on car mm, puts cos he don't like Friday night. Oh he goes on at five, he leaves house at five Al, and he must be in at one It all depends what he's doing ma. Mm. I mean er, I didn't like er that Friday night it were hor horrible shift, cos half the time you used to turn up, only half a team would turn up and you'd be expected to do Job. er job with half a team and and it couldn't get done properly. No, I'll have to get that bed up, put this across here and that chair beside that window. Oh I don't think you'll get it all in mother. You will You'd be better with settee along that wall and leave chair there, and you'll have more room. leave chair where it is, just to give it If you put that that way you'll have chair stuck out. We'll sort it out when we get to it. I'll put chair round here, beside bed, can't ya? Before we beep we'll go down in our car, bloody hell it's three times smaller than Pete's so I'll get it in our bloody car Where's your dish cloth mum? Eh? Where's your dish cloth? The big what? Dish cloth. Dish cloth. There ain't one, there's that sponge. Did you have this in new one int room as you go other side of fire place in that big polythene bag June No I've never felt as rotten as what I did this morning. No, well Mm, why did Steven kidnap? Or why did Stef kidnap well I, you know I can't understand this girl, because she's been in er, I mean she must of seen him when, when he's approached her to buy the house Yeah that's what I so surely she must be able to give him D'ya, d'ya know what I think Al, I think he's from Barnsley cos that Bob lots of money he's had dropped there at Barnsley Yeah but, I mean but it's right on where he's kidnapped her. motorway link so where's he's kidnapped her, it's hundred mile from Barnsley so I think he belongs Barnsley out the bloody area. Well he's not, he's not forced to do, he just might know the area, I mean, all he's doing is sticking to er places just off the motorways int he? Yes. But er I mean he's come from Birmingham up to Barnsley it's only what a hundred mi well is it hundred about ninety odd mile? Yeah, he's there from Barnsley up Birmingham it says that were a hundred miles away where we got 'em to drop the money off But the thing is she must've seen him. Of course she has but day time, now they're getting two, if there's two women, they're getting two women out of show, did you see it on telly? Yeah, but I mean even, even so, she, she has met him once before and she must of seen him when she's gone to the house for him to kidnap her. Yeah he must've been following her about. Alright he's probably blindfolded her after that, but at least she should have some kind of er Yeah whether he were dark hair or light hair or tall or short. you know I mean it's not just one of them surely she could give the police some indication of what he's like Oh Thomas must be still be Tottenham Mm, mm I'm sure, has he still got car in garage like? No they must of took it er, at, his son must of took it because they've put that girder back in. What girder? Oh that big one. Yeah they took key with 'em our Thomas must of. But what the hell did they took that? It, I thought they gonna leave the key. Ooh, our Tommy took that mat key, but he took it down home, I mean it's alright, but nobody else can get in damn garage Yeah I know. I'll have to tell him when he comes. I didn't know he took car Al tell you truth until I saw girder in He still should of left the key here I mean there's no He didn't, no you know, I mean even if I know if they're leaving it one, just for one night, there's not, it's, it's easy enough to just say I'll, I'll put key on windowsill and He'll have ya, Barney. You grot bag. George. last year. I know, that's what he were after. Wants to chew the basket, 'cos when he , I think he started chewing photo. You bugger, George. George. George. What you doing? George. What you doing, you bald headed bugger. He'll come out with it, you know. I don't think he will. The only thing he's picked up since we've had him, is me name. And how long we had 'im. We 'ad 'im a good six months, ain't we? Aye. Georgie babes. Georgie, look at look. He won't pick the names, he he picks up, it's the ones he already knows. Oi,basket,look. Oi Where's your tissue for your nose? Oh yeah. Chock-a-block. Have you see her ear, it's by her ear as well. the other day, and it's all black, all gunge coming out of it. So I'll take her to the doctor. You're bloody full of it, you, aren't ya. Yeah. Yeah. No, it's only a checked it,I don't think it's contagious, really. this morning. Oh, Bert, oh, Bert, your dog's Blow. put it back . Okay, you give it Thank you. Oh, Bert, your dog's gonna whip me teddy. He won't. has fire up there. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, he'll go out the door, one day. He's just had a fright. He's just had a fright. Tried to sit on basket. He he wanted he wants to chew it, and he didn't realise it swings. When he jumped on it, it startling swivelling. oh We're staying here today. He's getting a sod for biting. Aren't ya. Ma, Yeah, he went for nose other day, Arrr. Why's he up there for? I think what it is, 'cos I'm out so much at time now. And they don't have much time for him. uh oh. Where before there for? Scratching him and playing with 'im, you know. You know when the eyes kept itching,last time, and I said I wondered if it were 'cos of birds, No, your eyes. Yeah, you know two times I've been, and me eyes are going right mad. Just a minute while your mum tells me. 'cos of bird, you've always had Bobbie. Always had 'im. started again today. Mind you, he does chuck a lot of stuff about, 'cos you can see. Yeah. You're always dusting with him, 'cos he's right dusty. Right er, maybe that's what it is then. seems funny though, it's only started. Albert says I've got to sell 'im. Shall we sell you? Mm. Who's gonna make you, scratching his bloody head, and he's made his head bleed. would you have Colin about him. Well. Colin. I ended up paying for him. She's not bothered, she never goes near him. Never goes near him. She never goes near him. She's frightened to death of 'im isn't it. I know. But I don't think Geoff would be very pleased. Well, if you say to him, that just say that and that, that's you know, oh, just say something like, just say something like I can't keep up with him Dennis, he's throwing loads of dust about, just say to him,think about selling, to you want to buy him back or, you know. Well, they won't, I don't think they'd have him back. No and that's a I don't think, I don't think sell him. Has he got to wait. A. I don't think you'd get what you paid for him. Probably not, but I mean, cage is worth a hundred and fifty quid. That's what Russell paid for the cage. Oh, look. Mm Oh, look. What. Look, that he's into, Well, I mean, he's no problem to me. I'm not bothered about him. You know, I'd rather keep him than sell him, but It's like everything else, you've always summat else to bloody feed. Mm. By the way, when we had that pair, that were driving me mad, and then that one died, when we were in bungalow. Other one would learnt how to open a crack, and it were in that cage, and it could hear birds outside. Anyway in the end we let er Kenny's grandad have 'im, I mean, 'cos they got me mum's bird. They've got two of his own, he ended up with four birds. Yeah. But at least they were happy, you know what I mean. 'Cos they were with other birds. But I never missed, I never missed him. I don't think you get attached to birds like you do animals. I don't think you get attached to birds like dogs. Not like dogs and cats. No. I mean Albert said,if we do get that bungalow, we are 'cos the owner, he said she'll disappear. She'll disappear. I mean I'll be upset about our Whisky, 'cos we're, I mean, we've had a long time, although she's not a pet pet, you know what I mean. What feel like. Well, they they just, they go away when you take them somewhere fresh. and they don't know where they are. That one. They're very very Sometimes, you're lucky, and you know, if if you keep them in long enough We've always had cats, always had cats, when we lived at and we moved into and we'd had this one cat years, it were old cat. I wouldn't say it was ready for popping off, you know what I mean. Yeah It were always fit and we were only there a fortnight, three weeks disappeared. I mean, if our Whisky died, I wouldn't be as upset about it, as I would about these. But if she disappeared I'd be worried all time. And yet Aye. You know, like when our Dawn's kittens disappeared. It, they weren't bothered, I think Mick took them away meself. Yeah. I'm convinced he did. I think he did. But I were I were upset about that, you know. without a break. No, it's a can't be in the garden, can he. Yeah. Same as with these next door. I get right upset about Paddy. I mean she's give his kennel away now, and he's got no kennel again. Ar. And he's running streets, and you know how cold it was last week, and he's running streets. What she give kennel away for, then. I don't bloody know. I think she'd give the dog away as well. Saw him coming. Don't lick, don't let him lick her, Karen. Don't lick. You mutt all right. I've been round me mums this morning. I expect I'll go. Yeah. any better or. She said, when I went round she was sat doing crossword on bed. And then, er, I said I've just come to see if you want any cigs. She said, well our John's coming down tonight, she said, just get me twenty. I said, you might as well get forty, I said, because if he's late coming down Yeah, right. And he can't round shop after, you'd be stuck, and I mean, he. I don't Albert don't mind going for her cigs, but it's just that we don't get up early in the morning, you know, and if me mum's ringing at eight o'clock in the morning, 'cos she got no cigs. It's a bit unfair like, when when she could at I said she said after my job at Margaret's not very well. she hadn't seen Margaret since Christmas Eve. Yeah, but she ain't been bad since Christmas Eve. Oh, no. no. But she Ov over a month ago. When they came on Sunday, when it were your anniversary, she'd got diarrhoea and sickness, Margaret. I think she were off work last week. Yeah. I I mean, you're anything like that, but not not for a month, I mean. I got two toilet papers on . Oh yeah. Well, put one in your pocket then, I Margaret last night. Oh I I bet if you look at it, I don't Pete's been to me mum's for about six months. Because I can't remembering him going. He never goes without Margaret. She always goes herself, she were down there last night, by herself. He were at pub. Mm. Well, I said to her, told her about not having nowt to eat from that Wednesday morning, er Wednesday dinner time, till Thursday when they went Well she took away fish last night for her supper. Oh. And that she she looked shocked, you know, she didn't didn't know me like, and er, well she was shocked, and then I said I said, right well we'll have to get together and sort something out about stopping with her, and Pete said straight away. Margaret's there every day, she goes out every morning. Right. Not that he actually asked her. years ago about Beryl. I told you that's what he said. And I said, aye up, I don't mean in day-time. I says on a night-time, I said, you know, she can't leave her home now, I said, she can't manage to put coal on fire, and she can't manage to get up up to eat and drink and that, I said, I don't mind dropping off and taking me turn on the night-time but I mean, but it's hard, it's hard with me with kids every night. It's for you with kids. But I don't, certainly don't mind taking her down once a week or twice a week and taking me turn. Karen there's no need, no need, you're needed at bloody home. I mean, there's only you got kids. There's no reason your Margaret can't stop when he's on nights. Or afters. No. I mean, 'cos we can all down. Only days really what's difficult for him. Yeah. I don't think Pete'd stop. really. I mean, he only got to get his clothes on and go to work, the same. I don't think he'd go stop. Our Margaret might go stop herself, but I don't think he'll go. Ah. You're bending Watching ya. Will you settle down. No. I don't think Margaret would want to stop, actually. No, I don't think they would. None of em will But er, I don't think If no one will go down there at all and and sit with their mother for a for a couple of hours. No. I mean, I can't talk, because I never go. Er, to say 'cos I mean, I closest, and I don't go. Yeah, but I was your But er, me and me mum's never got on like our Margaret and me mum have. No. It's same as, what ow she's gone into hospital with her, you know, and I'd actually been that day, you know what I mean, I don't mind, don't get me wrong, I'm not cross, 'cos I don't mind. But it annoys you they they they think they're doing a lot for her 'cos they go in ev every morning. Yeah, they're more thought of. Yeah. More thought of. Has he. Yeah. I mean, I know, but Colin ain't been down much this week, because Colin's been working, he's been working every day and that, you know what I mean, it's been a bit hard for us to get down but we tried. Yeah. who should try and pick kids up and then have an hour down there. Well, he spends more time there than me. 'Cos I've been this morning and I've cleared fireplace out, washed No, you're not wearing your shoes in here. and I've 'oovered up, and dusted and polished. That kitchen floor could do with washing, I saw a mop, but didn't see no bucket. I don't whether she's got one, but I thought, I didn't have time to do it this morning. Mm. So I just run round with 'oover and dusted and polished, then I made a cup of tea. Who's doing the washing? Our Margaret. Ah. I can't, our Margaret's drying it on radiators, and I says to Albert, what me mum doing with the dryer. He says, I don't know. It's still there. So I'm gonna ask her if I can borrow it It's and then now I'll do her dryer washing for her. Yeah. I mean, I only really wanted to dry me towels, because I hate having to run out laun launderette while I'm drying all me other clothes on radiators. It's more expensive to use. Yes. I know it's more expensive. Sasha. but it's really only for towels. Come in, and shut that door. What you got. Get, shout Barney in. Shout Barney. Barney I don't whether she doing ironing, I know she's doing washing. Oh, alright. 'Cos she's, well, that day Albert took me Barney mum to 'ospital, and I, er she give me a lift. She dropped her washing off. I thought she'd dried it, and she said, oh, I'm just gonna put this washing on radiators, and then it, it were then that er it made me think, well, what done with her dryer. Yeah, I know. Well, 'cos I mean, she can't be paying much electric. It's not that that your Margaret ain't got time to stop there and dry it for her, you know what I mean. Oh, all you got to do is put it in, somebody'll take it out. Yeah. Go over there, no don't, she won't go outside, keep them on there. Yeah. I don't know. I mean, your Margaret sent a dinner down last night you know what I mean, the Yeah, she she said she might. she's took er fish and that, and she's tried in ways like that. Yeah. I mean I can't afford to take care We tried to We can afford to keep afford to dog. And Margaret's dad, when they, when my kids were little would never take our kids anywhere but they It were me dad, it were me dad that didn't take up And always relied on one or the other, I don't Me dad wouldn't me dad didn't mind taking I don't care which one. But they would never take 'em out for day No, I know. But they would fetch 'em and pay for them, and I even today, you cannot buy love. No. And it's proven my point, our Dawn wouldn't even think about there. Our our Corinne goes round when she got to. Don't think about what. Our Corinne don't only go round when she got to. She goes round Goes round weeks ago. Well, she won't go and stop. Said she won't go and stop again. Who's gonna stop then. When we were all on about stopping I don't mind going and doing her shopping and bits, she says, I'm not stopping. Yeah. When you were on about that love, what pa was saying about, you know, like every night, that our kids, when, they had their pyjamas on, and they're like, to get hold,I'm lying watching television, I'm usually falling asleep, but I put the kids,you know. And er, last time I I get in touch, me mum told me,turned round and says to me, I don't want any more mum, I says why, he says, oh she won't let me have pillow and then I then I think if summat else brought to light, I kill her Yeah. if she had come in Yeah. and that, I know it's a filthy old thing, but it it's comfort ain't it. Yeah. And when they start let them have the pillow down, they don't feel, they can't get comfortable. I know it's a little bit trivial like, but it's just, it's still She has queer ways me mother. Karen I I'm forty-seven and I can't work me mother out, so, no chance for you working her out, few years you've known her. No no, I I, I mean, she's always been alright with me really, I mean,y you know, she's not not at all mother-in-law, she's not Well, me and me mum's, me and me me mum's never been close. It were always like, me and our Colin were more or less with me dad, and our Margaret and John were more or less for me mum. Then when they got older, me dad sort of took our John on, because our John were mechanical minded, and our Colin got pushed out a bit, 'cos our Colin weren't interested in cars. I found this. Oh yeah, oh that's what that bird. Yuk. And our Colin was to be off t' fair, and that, so, me dad sort of went on to our John and pushed our Colin out a little bit. Yeah. But er, me and our Colin's never been me mum's favourite. It's always been our Margaret. Mind you, did you see that photo that Yeah. You are, I mean, I could just work out,I said, your Margaret and John are a lot like you. She is 'cos she's got Margaret's lips and your nose, but out of all of you, I think your your Jo you can see your John in it, can't you, more than anybody. I always think our John looks more like a Prescott, 'cos he al every time I see him, I see me Uncle Bill more and more. Yeah, John used to say, years ago about how much that you're, John looks like your Brian, and I don't think he looks anything like it. No, I don't. And she again now, she says like somebody your John look like that bloke next door. What a load of rubbish, I thought well. No. He looks more and more Aye. our Colin's getting more and more like me dad. Well, Brian ain't it. Brian , Brian I think don't like, er, they are, they're all like that. All of them. And I think our John looks like me Uncle Bill. Yeah, I think he does. But then again, he did look like that photo, I think he does look like that photo, but you were younger then, Yeah. but he does look like Uncle Bill. Mind you Colin's getting more like your dad every day. I know he is. black welding glasses on, and he turned round and he made me jump. Like oh, Colin, and then he go like this, you know,isn't it. You know, he'll come running glasses. Yeah. I can't do it. And right, he made me heart jump, 'cos he looked just like your dad, and then a few days later, he's in garage again, and Johnny come in and he said, God he said, he gave me a flaming heart attack out there. I said, why, and he said, he turned round with these glasses on, then he said it was just like John's stood there. I says, don't tell me, I said, he did the same thing to me the other day, and it were only within a couple of days of each other. When he puts those glasses on, honestly he's his double. I think it's the way he looks, like, if you know what I mean, you know like pull his face and like, look over glasses, I mean,he did it to me when did it to Johnny. He probably thought like. He's like me dad, er me dad, he never had no patience, and our Colin's just like him. Mind you, I'm like our Colin as well in a lot of ways. I haven't got a lot of patience. But where where we're better off 'cos Albert, he's calm, where you and our Colin are both fiery tempered Yeah. Where, when I start, Albert's He, I tell you want he doesn't do, I shouldn't let you hear, but, when he, when him and me are arguing when we were younger, and me dad used to wind Colin up, and wind me up, and I'd get madder and madder, and me dad used to love it. But looking back, you know, and now, that's what Colin does to me, he winds me bloody up,but I can't help it, because he gets me that wild, I should just, I should, I mean, how can you change his temperament. I mean, I should just turn round and tell him where to go, but. I think Colin winds you up summat chronic I know. And instead of just Ignoring him. Ignoring him. You don't, he and he going through bloody Yeah, I know. What A where No. Bird pooh on window. But,I mean, er, Where the birds have poohed on me window flying past. Oh God. I know aren't they dirty. He thinks a lot about ya Yeah. Right duck. You know, I he mustn't pushed me, that man, who that keeps asking me out. I mean, I sometimes, I mean, I admit I'm not most passionate person in the world but I then again I'm not You're not by your bloody self. I'm not frigid or owt I can't see,are neither of you passionate? No. I keep saying to him, look Colin, I said, I know a couple of times a week's enough for me, but that's worth waiting for, but when you're doing it three times and then get sick of it. and he can't understand that. Yeah. You think got 'er. Aye. No. No, don't do any more. any more. You've got enough. Don't rip 'em. They're to blow your nose on. I tried to get one. I know, but you're wasting 'em. I tried to make a It's alright like that. Oh yeah. You're wasting 'em That back door shut! It scared me. Go and tell Auntie June to shut the back door. Else she'll be missing a bird. June. June. That was close, wasn't it? It was. Did it frighten ya? Yeah. Aye. Flies round your head, you know. Oh aye, gets stuck in your hair. Well, he's not going out. I in a minute He will get on your head an' all I will get on his head in a minute, again. Aren't we He's got He's got what? Got, your A bogie. Mm. Said this looks dodgy. that's a funny talk, i'n't it it Albert. Yeah. talk. talk, don't ya. Don't get scared of her now. She's scared of me, ain't she, Albert. Yeah. Wait a minute, Albert. Behave, bloody scratching. Bloody big, stupid sod. I'm making a bed for for Barney. And Barney's in bed. I need a blanket Gotta blanket for 'im. told you now, make your pillow,fellow, Is Barney got little little legs? He he's in bed. Has Barney got little little legs Mm. a little bit bigger don't ya. Look at that flaming dog. Come on, come on, throw them over there. I wonder if there's any way you can actually check, you know, where he is, is there any way that Watch me tea, now. straight out, or, Well, what what do you think erm, Are you worried about how much money it's gonna cost ya. No, because money's cost us less. Er, you know when they said we had to pay two hundred and fifty one for er, administration and search and survey. It's come back, and it's under two hundred. Can I have a cup of tea, please. Then they said I've got to pay five hundred pounds for Do what, love. I don't think Allied Dunbar will deal with anybody that's dodgy. No. Er, Now, watch that tea. Yeah. That's what he said. Are you ready. I don't think they'd deal with anybody that dodgy. Er. Bert. Are you doing alright, are ya. What they do, they look they look around and they weigh up up pros and cons up, and it it's like these insurance brokers, they ring all over to buy cheapest insurance for you, well, that's what Allied Dunbar are doing. Well, well, this is a broker, but it's a broker, so that's Yeah. You see, what it is, it's where they've been behind with their mortgage, we will pay a slightly higher rate, but it's only Yeah. a matter of about, er, I think I think the mortgage now is ten point nine, and we'll be paying eleven point something, Yeah. So it's only a matter of a Yeah, but one per cent 's a hell of a lot you know. It's a penny in the pound. Yeah, but I mean it, it will drop, it will drop again. But the thing is, also what I thought of once we gotta us a mortgage and got established, you could always remortgage and go into er like Bradford and Bingley, and come out like that Yeah, once you get it back up to Yeah. Yeah, well that's Well, I thought once we get It'll not be a dodgy one. Put it in there, then. It won't be, it's not forced to be a building society. No, it isn't. It gonna to be a building society. Oh, well, it might be Abbey National. No, it's come back, it's got Target Finance on it. Ah. Well that's o that is a finance company and not a building society. If it says finance, it doesn't mean a building society. Nine times out of ten, it's a finance company. Same as er, Mercantile, and Well, 'cos I mean, we dealt with Mercantile, we dealt with Key Finance, Yeah. Er We've dealt with summat Wagon. Key, that, when we first bo when we first bought our car through that Scottis that bloody bank. Scottish Amicable. Scottish Amicable. Like Widows. They're always ringing up. They ring up at seven and eight o'clock at night. Yeah. Asking us whether we want to borrow some money. Er, asking if there's anything we co , look at him walking about with that Everything, everything, what oh, papers have got, has got Legal and General on it. Mm. So, I thought, well Yeah. it can't be a a dodgy I don't think it'll be anything dodgy. It won't be dodgy. Oh. But you can always, easily find out What usually happens, though. All you do, is pick the phone up and and get, oh now, what place do you ring. I forgot what place you ring, but we're find out, and you ring up to see what they're, what the company's like. You know, if it's a variable company. Yeah. Things like that, you could do that. Different companies take over, I remember that time we borrowed that four thousand pound. We started out with Key Finance and we ended up with Mercantile Credit, didn't we? Yeah. Changed companies three times, that time we had that four thousand pounds. You told me about that, yeah. Well said that it will be a sm a really small building society. He says, that, 'cos er, it's not Well. Big building societies are not prepared to give you rates, and small building societies are wanting to get going You see, the only trouble with building societies is, it's the same when you buy a pigging house , they put the money on what you've actually borrowed every year. Yeah. Well, finance companies only, you only get the interest on what is left. On the money that you owe. Yeah. That's the difference. And between them both, you can, you could I mean you take a ten thousand pound out with a mortgage, mortgage, and you could end up paying what, twenty thousand, twenty four thousand back. Yeah. Well, finance company. You, you borrow ten grand or twenty grand whatever you like to, and you get a certain amount put on that, and that's it, it's fixed. No. You don't pay no more. Say you'll, you'll you'll get twenty thousand five hundred, that, if you buy, if you borrow twenty thousand just for er round figures. You borrow twenty thousand, and the interest payments works out Benji very high He's alright. It's very high, you know, the interest payments are very high, but for that money you've borrowed you'll only pay say, just for a a figure, five hundred pound back for that twenty thousand, five you know, Yeah. five thousand pound, not. Not paying it for years and years all the time. But if you borrow it from a in er mortgage company, you're gonna, you're gonna borrow twice that, you gonna have to pay twice that much back. Forty grand, you kn that's the only difference, and I don't mind that so much though, 'cos they say we are paying a lot less back a month than other way. But I just got one thing that I want, that they gonna send me owt dodgy like a loan shark bloke or owt like that, I mean you, you're bound to be a bit nervous, you know. No, they won't send a loan shark. You you can tell loan sharks, straight away, because the A P R's about twenty seven per cent . Ma maybe twenty nine, even thirty, depending, but if it er, mind you I don't know, because it's a long time since I had a look at 'em. But, you know, when you when you borrow money, you get er, an interest rate, don't you, over so many,yo you've got to figure out ho how many years you're gonna pay it back. You know. If you say, oh, we'll take it over ten years. Well you've got ten years interest to pay, ain't ya. So you pay the interest for for nine years, and they start paying your loan off. We're still having trouble getting insurance, and er, anyway I phoned, and I wrote him again yesterday, and he's given this number, who er, who he's with. 'Cos he had a right job,got plastic, 'cos he even plastics, I mean that's Yeah. Inflammable, ain't it. Anyway, er, the bloke who managed to get him insurance, this this, the premises are insured with him, Yeah. so I thought, well, if he's already got, er, part of his insurance without having Yeah, because he was in, paper, waste paper, and the fire insurance on that must have been colossal. That's where cardboard and paper. Yeah. Sasha come in here, shut door. He's not coming in. But er, I can't understand why, because I mean, let's face it,he he's only using fibre-glass and they're not that flammable No, what they're saying is. Not the flammable, it's the er indemnity, nobody can breathing it in who's in Oh, yeah, yeah. They're frightened like, in years to come, like, they're gonna try and make a claim against them 'cos their er, been on the chest, is summat like that. Yeah. I, it's health and safety, yeah. er. Through the health and safety, but. Eighty four we had this extension put up. Yeah. Sasha come in here. But, after saying that, There's a draught in what you gotta do, is make up your mind, what chemicals you're gonna use Yeah. and then find out all about What ya got? Don't know. them particular chemicals and then submit it to the, the insurance company, what them's the only chemicals you use, and the company said this and that. they told him that. Yeah. Yeah. And they still See he's off again,I bet it is. Just started itching. Well, he has just flown about. I say, he's just flown round bloody house, He has. Yeah. Oh. I bet 'cos I thought I'd look. Aye. I couldn't It might be dust out of his wings. Yeah I every time I come here. Nineteen ninety one, ninety two. I must have sensitive eyes Eighteen hundred and fifty two. Dear me. We've had that pebble-dash nearly, nearly, it's nearly two years since they did that pebble-dash. Cost us two thousand nine hundred, and in two years, we've only paid, eight hundred, nine hundred A hundred A hundred and forty pound, we've paid off in two years, Karen. How much. A hundred and forty pound. In two years. In two years. Now, if that had been a finance company, I would have paid a damn sight more. But it cost us thirty seven pound a month. But, last year, we put, no wait a minute, last year, we paid 'em four hundred and eight pound fifty two, and they put two hundred and seventy two pound fifty interest on. So actually all we paid, was Thirty seven, per cent Thirty odd, thirty That's round about thirty-seven per cent, innit, somewhere around there. Yeah, we paid thirty eight pound off it last year. Makes more. It's ridiculous, you know, mortgage payments. When you think of it. I know. and on 'ouse, they put eight hundred and ninety eight pound, you could say, nine hundred pound interest on 'ouse. Oi. I don't know how they get away with mortgage payments like they are, because, you know,it it's totally unfair, They are. I mean, alright, we know you're handling large lumps of money, but when you think of it, if you, if you, borrowed it at a different rate, you know, same rate as you could do finance, 'cos which I think the government could do it and make a profit at it. Yeah. You know what I mean. Instead of having all these different mortgage companies, Abbey National and that, the government have er, have er, a whatsname to do it, they're wouldn't be half and a quarter. I mean, it happens all over the world, you know, in in the in the especially in the whatsname countries. I know. Communist countries. Everything's owned by the by the government and er, I know it's not a right good thing, like, but if it could work properly, it would be a damn good thing. Watch she don't bite ya. I mean, communism in England, in it's in it's proper form would be a wonderful thing, but er, it's on because er, it's only the rich people what make people poor. I know. The say as with damn education, like, at bloody Tory sods, they took all blinking, we gi for al for all these people what's going to college, every time they drop on holidays they've got nothing to keep 'em. No. So I my opinion, what this government's doing is stopping stopping the lower class, well I say lower classes, the lo the the isn't it. poorer people, they stop 'em getting educated. That I'm I'm almost convinced. Yeah. It says, everything they're doing, it says, is going back to the eighteenth century, when you hear about these Kath Catherine Cookson days, working for pennies and you can't get educated un cutting back, They're cutting back on education. Oh, you're telling me They're making it so only the rich can be educated. Yeah, trying to turn it back into at the end of the day. I mean, our Colin's there waiting for a grant and what's happening. Sweet nothing. Now we're, it were in bloody paper last on Thursday, they don't get nothing when they're on holiday. No, they don't, I mean, how the hell they supposed at eighteen year old without a job. Mm. If they have a job, they don't get no grants. And how can you have, hold a a job down I don't think And do education at same time. I'm not sure, but I think I don't got my family allowance until I were eighteen, I think, I think they used to give us let me keep our Karen's Oh. So I've got a form to fill in, actually. It should have gone back last week, and I It'll all stop when she gets her grant through. Don't knock me. She said not necessarily. I think it will stop them thought shit I'm not bloody going to declare it, Yeah. She applied for a grant, and in, er in career, it says like, Sasha you'll, like you you No, you'll rip it. Left home, you know, we are, like, say our Karen to leave home. Aye. Yeah. And she were living in the parks. Get up here. Yeah. They used to give 'em subsidies to help 'em pay the rent, they've stopped that, so they've either to gerra job, to help put supplement to pay in the, you know, their housing accommodation, or they've got to stop school. In summer holidays, er, the grant don't they take that six weeks Off the grant. off the grant, so that actually they get six weeks money less, through the year, than they should do, where they're used to paying all through year For twelve months, now they don't. Now, they don't get anything for that six weeks that they're not at school. No. So, you know, any girl that's not living at 'ome. She got to go out and work for that six weeks, to, to earn the money feed the And where can you get that bloody kind of money, only corner. Yeah, but where can you get a job. Well, that's it. Where can you job. Well, it's forcing the girls on to streets, ain't it. Yeah. corner. I mean, they're begging 'em you to ke they're begging you to keep 'em on at school, and yet you can't get no help to keep 'em on. It's like other day,we were talking to this bloke like, and he were on about businesses, says you can't underst , oh he said something about finances,how difficult it is to get finance to start a business up and er, he said, I know, he said you can't me, he said. You seen all these adverts about starting your own business, you know, governments like, you know, doing all these courses and making it out as though it's it's dead easy to get fi , you know hitting your head against a brick wall Yeah. The only way you can start a business, is by starting it without insurance straight off your own back, and then, you know, after it's running, get insurance. Yeah. That ho ninety five per cent of firms do that. regulate. I mean it's I mean, look at laddo round there what's been broke into. He's no insurance no insurance whatsoever, 'cos he couldn't afford it. I know. Ours is gonna us about a thousand pound for insurance. Oh. Well, a thousand pounds not a lot, Karen, but er it all depends what the, what what you gonna be insured for? It's not. I mean, even that, you're gonna you you gonna be insured for breaking in and break-ins and Yeah, I think it's everything. I think it's That's what I mean, so what you're actually getting for your, thousand pound isn't a lot of money. No. I think it's covered for like, like you say, like for some reason, say you had a fire, and you had to stop work. Yeah. I think it's covered for that. Covered for personal injury, er, covered for hundred thousand, for like, that's what trailers,they've got trailers in. It's covered for everything. I mean, you imagine somebody breaking in and setting fire to a trailer. I mean, it's a lot of money when you think Norma's paying nine hundred pound just for her car. For that Cabriolet. To me, you think phew a thousand pound, but cer I mean, it's it ain't really very much, no. It's a high insurance for a car. What for car? yeah. Right What how how comes that, then? Because, well, Cabriolet's are classed as dangerous, aren't they, because they're soft roofed. Oh, aye. It's not got no Aye, this Yeah,she's only been driving a year, two years. Soft top, yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, look at our Connie's. Yeah. Three hundred and eighty for third Our Connie's were five hundred and seventy. Now it's gone up to five hundred and seventy because that accident. I mean, when you look at it, it's for a third party fire and theft. Christ, that's gonna be a thousand pounds on a full comprehensive, just about. I know. I'm still Are ya. Well, I I I'll promise not to fondle. need to tell her. Connie get in touch with me again, I told her that. I don't know. Tell the truth innit. Aye. How it goes. He wouldn't be be able to keep that promise if he'd tried. He won't promise. Who No, I don't. I be You get to walk by yourself See that piece in free press about No. It's a big piece. Give ya mummy that that free press. What. Give mummy that free press That paper. one. Yeah Er for me eyes. It's only one like you had for He does make a lot of dust. I thought, when, last time I were here, I kept thinking, well, why's he only doing it, 'cos I know he never done it before. When I thought, he says to Colin, I said,bird, you know, like, when something started to Wet your fingers Mind, er Might be dust. Mm. I'm not worn no make-up for ages, 'cos me eyes seem to be like, itching all of a sudden. Aye. So whether it's just that as well. Well, it can't be 'im, 'cos we always had Yeah. it's gotta be 'im. Yeah. You bald headed mutt, aren't ya George. Old baldy. He's can he talk? Yeah. He says He's baldy. He's says Baldy. Baldy George. You know Margaret, she's got that new suite round there. You seen it? No. I ain't been round. Oh. It's it's er, Benji. Benji, come off. I didn't, I mean, I don't like small the right brightly coloured or what, but it looked like it were coloured like this, like this kind of colouring. Yeah. It it's blue. I'm sure, she said it's blue. It's got some cream in it as well ain't it. Well,more, so I couldn't see, but I just, to me it was just like er, thought it was like minky coloured. But mind ya,more like a, but what I was gonna say is, Suppose to be a but I mean On back of it, on back of it, she's got like all them tapestry pictures laid over back of it. Yeah. She got, same on chairs, all, you can hardly see the suite, 'cos she's got, she says, and er, I says to her, I says to her, oh it's nice your suite, innit. She says yeah, if I can keep it clean, she got all cushions covered up, well like er, er Keep it clean, there's only them two buggers. I know, but what's the point of having a new suite, and having old covers on it like that. They make me laugh, when they sit in 'ouse with blanket round them, so they don't have to turn 'eating up. I don't Aye, you go in there and it's empty that other That's empty. I know, I see it. I tell you what, you to make mistakes in your life, I mean and, I just, well one of those things that that I'm pleased about, is that I just George when Don't work. Aye. When what? When I stopped with Colin. Oh well. You don't know how green, how green the grass is until you actually stand You can't go till your dad comes. Why, I'm going home all by myself, then. Well, get off there. get on with it. We do You'll end up with a smack bum. Benjy, will you leave her alone. Are you have you told her to leave me alone? Yeah. No. get on ya Benj Do you always smack him, when he plays Yeah, I smack his bum. Does he play with dad. No. Why he plays Does he play with toilet paper? No, he eats it. No, Look ain't that 'orse going back Where? You've missed it, it's gone now. I mean, when you think of what he started with, Karen, Yeah. He borrowed money from his father-in-law. Yeah. Is that which one? It's gone. Which. Me dad, if if me dad had done what What's that, that that young girl here says they won't have nowt do with them at all. Any relations. Well, well Richard won't. I know. Er. She's is his cousin. Is that maybe the other side, but I don't be Wendy's side. She's his cousin. 'Cos I says to her one day, well why don't you ask yer, your relation, if he'll er, if he'll give yer a job. Give us a job, she said, he won't even pass the time of day with us. I said, well, I, there must be summat there, out there, she said no, he said, she said it goes back a long time. But er, she says, never even speaks to us. And if we if if we ring up, he puts he just puts the phone straight down, soon as you tell him who it is. Probably goes back from when they went He said, I, she said I can live without him anyhow. It'll drop off, that. It won't. It will. Come on,yella. I found some Mighty Muscle in garage, you know. How much. You know that big round tin. I, not how much is in it, but it'll probably be about that much in bottom. I know wanting to do this room, really, 'cos it would be too cold. Get away with one. I wish we'd just too cold. You won't, as far as we're having to buy coal at that price. No, I know. Every time we have any spare money, it has to go on pigging coal. how much. You know that big round tin? Yeah. I don't know how much is in it, but probably be about that much in bottom. might be really, couldn't too cold. Get away with one. I wish we'd afford some I mean, it's cold. You won't while we're having the buy coal, at that price. No, I know. Every time we have any spare money, it has to go on pigging coal. We'll probably just buy some, and that lad'll ring up. He probably will. Especially if this mild weather stops. But it is mild today, ain't it. Yeah. That's not a moo cow. Get down. It is. It is. It isn't. Mooo. That's it. That's what moo cows do. You're crackers. It is. It is a moo cow. I mean like er, Eileen was saying summat yesterday, she said, she said I don't er, have at home, she said, I decided to I said I'm frightened, and sometimes knows I'm not frightened. I said, I'm frightened someone's in the 'ouse, I'm frightened not waking everybody well, well what do you do, I says, you don't, unless you have a go, you don't, I mean, if I'd turned out you know, you don't really know. I know. I mean, that You might, and then again, you might be a millionaire inside three months. Yes, I said to her, think about it, I I was that frightened, I frightened meself to death, and I I wouldn't I wouldn't. I hated it. That's what I used to do every time I thought about selling 'ouse You just got to do it. Yeah. I thought about it, and thought about it, and then then changed my mind. But this time I decided it's what I want to do and bugger it. If we don't sell it, we we haven't lost anything. Oh well. sell it till we move. I honestly think myself As long as we're not worse off than what we were before we moved. I honestly think meself, that I might have a have a couple of hard months, maybe three, first three months might be a bit difficult for me. Oh, it probably will be. Well, I think, once he gets established, and once he starts getting work in, I think meself, that work will start, won't say rolling in, but I think the work'll start coming in after about three months and I can get established. Oh we can always lend you a couple of ten pences. I know. I know we're hard up, but you can ten pence. You never know, might be to make enough money to take you out somewhere for a decent Christmas do. Oh Yeah, Christmas party. Yeah. Yeah, might. You might. want to come work for him, did I tell ya. Who? Him that used to work with our Colin. Yeah. You know, er, well, Aye, the It, he would It's gotta be better than being on dole, innit. No, I don't know. Oh, is that No he's, no he's got a good job. He works at with plenty of overtime. Benjy. Colin phoned him up, and er, it it he mentioned, how he was starting up, and he said he might be interested, anyway Colin phoned him a couple of weeks ago to see if he was still interested in. Anyway he says he'd pay him the same money as what he's on there, 'cos he'd have to really, wouldn't just say, say You've, you've got to, but how the hell get it, if he don't get paid up front. What do ya mean? Well, wages, Got to Well, it have to come out of capital, at first. Yeah. put by ten or eleven thousand, or whatever it is, just come out of that. Yeah. Yeah. So we got money coming in. Mm. our Karen. But er, I mean, I says, can't we manage without him, can't you manage by yourself, but Colin says he can't really, because He needs somebody. Yeah. Well, Colin's gotta be able to do a lot of office work, he's gonna be out doing quotes, you know what I mean, so he's going have to have somebody there. Yeah. Yeah. Or I would apply for er, family credit straight away. get coming in, I'm gonna say, yeah, we've got ten thousand pounds. But we don't know how long it'll be, before get any money coming in, and if you go on to family credit, you get it for six months, so that'll be our wages. So then, what what comes out of business we'll pay him anyway. Yeah. You might have too much in bank for family credit, that ten thousand, it's only eight, innit? It's got, it's gotta know what increase, when you running a business. Yeah. Oh, I don't know. If you apply for it straight away, could you say you don't know how much monies coming in. How much money your gonna coming in. His dad's in a new business, anyway,bec so you should get forty quid a week at least, anyway. Thirty-five now, Is it thirty-five, Yeah. Bloody hell. Yeah. It's like everything else I mean, that's seventy pound, you wouldn't have had, anyway, ain't it. No. Oh. I ju I mean, it, now it's just getting me, more depressed than nowt else, I mean, I just wish that they'd phone and say yeah, we've got you a insured. And then, I mean, 'cos we daren't say that to accountant know, to have 'ouse valued, 'cos what's point in, I mean, anybody said to us, er, get it sent off, you'll find, you're, somebody will insure ya. But what if they don't. You've lost all your ain't ya. Ya, so that's the end of the world. Even if you find out they won't. No. Why don't you get a free put on market. No, the on the company's, that's coming up with all the money got to Oh aye. do the valuation. And they ought to form value of what, so they know how much it's worth, what the company that's gonna earn them the money want the money for the valuation. It's just another way of making a bit more money out it. That's it. Well, it's same as when you buying and selling 'ouses. You when it comes out, when, the people that's, mind me cigarette, darling, the people that's gonna buy your 'ouse, who, mortgage company comes out and values it, they've got that to pay as well haven't they. Yeah. The same as, I, them that buys our 'ouse, they'll have to pay whatever it cost for 'em to value our 'ouse, see if it's worth lending money, we'll have the same thing with er bungalow, down there. Yeah. It's only money I mean, how long are they 'ere. Yeah. Ten minutes. Mean, that woman come out, when when we had this done, didn't she, Mm. To to see if it were satisfac she weren't here three minutes. No. What was that for, for You know when we had extension put up. Oh yeah, yeah, Well, Did it value. They sent they sent 'em out from er, Abbey National and we had to pay, well we did pay 'im fifty pound, people that put the building on paid. she keeps getting up. She's not. She is. She'll bite you, and our Whisky can She scratched him outside, didn't she. And, if she were here three and a half minutes, that's all she were 'ere, and it and it 'em fifty quid. Yeah. Bloody ridiculous. It's all a bloody money making racket. Another thing is, I'll tell why we don't want er, they always having valuations, they are, they come and value it, and then they give us money. That means we're gonna be paying extra eleven thousand with money we ain't got. Yeah. That's another reason we're daren't send it off. Yeah. Yeah, because if ya, if ya, get it before ya start your business. You've still got it to pay as soon as you get it. Yeah. Trust them, because it's in their at the moment. Well, I still believe in and I don't pushed around and say, no you can't have money, no you can't get insured, and so that means others. You haven't lost anything have ya? Well, just er disappointment, I suppose. For what Well, yeah, Then again, I mean, I There's always summat else you can go and do. You know that, doing that, fabricating, and things like that, you know like actual welding and that type of Er, we wouldn't make as much money out of that as you probably would No. No, you'll be, you'll be stuck to it, all time, and it's not good for 'im. No. And it kills your eyes welding. Benjy. But as he said to me, why don't you go welding. I says, the point is I've got bad eyes as it is, Yeah. what's the point in making them worse. I know. So, jump in me box, and I ain't jumping in me box blind, for the last ten years. I'll manage the way I am. You see, that works where I Benjy Aye, Benjy, look at 'im. Benjy Where are you, when it's gonna be, he said corner, then we'll make an office and a little canteen in that anyway. Then there's another long unit right at side of it, just enough to get one trailer in. I said, I said, if we do get going, and we do start finding out that it's going alright, he'll turn that, into like er, shop er, blasting shop. And like, Yeah. A spray area, then Yeah. Employ a sprayer. So, I mean, we know what we want, but it's them and not us, I mean, it is frightening to start a business up, 'cos we don't know how much work we'll be getting, but, I mean, Well, it's same for anybody starting any business, ain't it, you don't know if it's gonna work as well. It might go well for the first three or four months, and then all of a sudden we might have a lapse in a few months , Yeah. you could be struggling to keep it above Yeah. and especially, you know, these bloody big firms, they do not like paying bloody bills. No. I mean, you could have as as much as two or three thousand pound owed to ya, but your business will still go under. Yeah, because of it. Because of it. Yeah. They don't look on them things, how much you've got owed out to ya. I know. When you look you see everything's a bloody risk, Let's hope he gets off the floor. walking across roads a risk, ain't it. Yeah. It's ju just if you've got the nerve to do it. It's a risk with these buggers, what's in power, aye, it's no matter what whose in power. I got I think if labour gets in, you'll not get it tough at all. I can tell you that, now. Oohh. What? Oohh. You feel like er, that's whose, like ex soldiers throughout the company, and he said to Colin er, he said, how many people are you thinking about employ , our Colin seems to think there'd be enough work to keep 'im going, like, he says, he says, well how many people are you thinking about employing, he says, only only me and me like, it's oh, oh, he says, there's plenty of work to keep two of going, he said, I thought you employed about six. So if he thinks that Colin do have six working for him, and he's got enough work for six, then surely there's gonna be plenty of work for two of 'em. Yeah, but what he means by six is, he gets the jobs done quicker Yeah, but then you still got six wages to pay out, haven't ya. Yeah. That's it. He probably will have six later on, if he gets it off, but the thing is, I mean, he'll need somebody to drive wagons round yard, and half the time,y you know, he'll be sat doing nothing, scratching his nose. Them's the people he's got to be wary of, the people that want a job, but don't wanna work for it. There's a hell of a lot in Broadway and Stainford, Yeah. round about here. Mind Lee's a, Lee's a good worker, he says that, he wants, you know, best worker what he can Yeah, but I mean, working for a mate, is different to working for a firm. Yeah. You know, I mean Well, he's not a mate, he won't, he's working with him when he were at er over in Brad oh, here's Richard now. Aye, you'd better jump in bed with him, Oh dear, no but he is, Richard is the one with the comical magazine,laughing bursts two incomes. I think that's part of Yes. Look, slow down, or you're driving me mad. Oh yuk. weekend, aren't we? Get settled. Pity she can't go as well, you could have had a quiet weekend. Where's Gavin like, is he with Colin? No, in the barn, 'cos they went yesterday morning, and er, they end up sleeping last night,due back today I was I was Don't make sense. Mmoo If I don't 'ave 'im, I'll be having 'im for a, you know, two days at a time. Mmoo. Well, if you 'ave 'im two days at a time, it's better than nowt at all innit. How's that came and stop 'ere. How long she's got to go for other one. Twelve,, he's got her ten days. Ten days. Yeah,could it Could be ten, between ten and twelve days, couldn't it. George, your birthday's not twenty-first ain't it, No. I thought it were twenty sixth. That's true. Well, you'll have to wait while A week before Oh, I said George,bed with ya, I said, that's worse Oh Benjy lie down, what matter with ya. He's worse than your father ain't he. lie down now. Look. He's coming in. Lie down. Snuggled up on that blanket, little un. Lie down . You'd do it for for Bert. He's he's like that with everybody. He's like with everybody, ah, give us a cuddle. Yeah, but he won't keep bloody still. If you're cuddling me, you won't move What were you saying about er, two hours old. look in me dad's then. maybe in February after this worst month of year. But, after everybody's birthdays and anniversaries in bloody February. Aye. It must be the summer what does it. Aye, it's always It's Linda's anniversary tomorrow. It's her birthday on on Wednesday, it's our on twelfth, and whenever our Dawn has this baby, that's gonna be in February. Yeah. It's your birthday, me mum's birthday. Have we got any buggers in March? It won't matter whether it's born on your Margaret's birthday or not, it still won't get nowt. It won't get nowt. It were born on,Yvon Yvon hang on, get it Yvonne's birthday is the first of February, and mine's the twenty first, but she'll be a year older than me, so she's like a year and twenty days Yeah. exactly older than me. First and twenty-first. You want to do what she's doing now. Who's it for. Oh. I thought it was that wife. Oh, Norma. Oh no. Oh no, not 'er. Norma. Pack one, her. I know, I call that, but I mean, I don't down the town,but her. But I, I didn't think I like that. Mum, mum watch this, are you watching. You have to lose a race now and again. Yeah, but she ain't even, Are you watching, er, what was was I saying, the I don't know what George has all the customers, I mean, she's isn't even particularly isn't she, she's not what you call really bonny, she ain't got a right bonny face. I know she's got a nice figure. She's as thick as two short planks, she's got a dirty mouth. I mean, I, you know, maybe I can't understand your cross. I know. Cannot understand or something. Their as different as chalk and bloody cheese. Plenty of different people cheap, er,the other people who have different likes to you, but what, what you might think's attrac attractive, somebody else'll Yeah. won't be, you know. To be quite honest, without talking like a school on a fence. They're not very happy, they ain't been happy for a while, but it's getting worse,wh is, what is them now is, you know I say things to Colin, and Co I mean, Colin'll tell me like, you know, you know,over there, and er, he's latest thing is, they built this little office. You know when you go into on the right, er a coal-house and a wash- house ain't there. Yeah. The coal-house part it's is quite wide now we've done it, big coal-house, but altered And then it twists, and like a small office, and when when I were there, after Michael had shown it me and Colin, he says oh, he says, er I'm come in here to get get out of way, and you know, he was like telling me, I thought I don't want to be a fiddle, because it's alright telling Colin, the boys telling yeah, Yeah. ain't it, yeah, it's not like a woman telling you problems. Don't knock my dusters off. Anyway, I just said, well, summat about about what I said, I says, yeah,nice to get away from it all, ain't it, to be by yourself, and that's all I said, and I think he knew that I I didn't want to but, and he said to Colin oh shit. said, he said, yeah, he said, it'll be ideal in here, he said, I can put, he said, put a full lock on door, and he said, I can come in here, he said,and so I thought, ah. Yeah but, there's not many people that you can Sasha, behave. I don't think I know anybody that hundred per cent 'appy. Well, I think it's got a lot to do with the climate we're living in, you know, Rushing about There's that much, there's that many people out of work, there's and you know, there's that many pressures on people. I mean, it's like like Colin and I, I mean, like we're happy but then, no were not hundred per cent happy at all,But like, er, like some people I can't if you get upset, some people eat more, some people eat less, or you know, some go into recluse, some get and like Colin, he's when he's depressed, he's goes like a raving sex mania, he I'm bloody glad Albert don't, he'll drive me out of a bed. He takes all, takes all his Why didn't you stop No I think every I think everybody's got themselves summat some faults. Nobody's hundred per cent perfect. I mean, I don't think Colin's unhappy where he wants to do, then an offers an offer, like either they go in and make share, but if they work all day. No, it's not er, it's so much I mean, he's at work all day,and he works all bloody hours that God sent, when they want, when they got down, Yeah. and what happens. He's got to build an office where he can go and let, sit in it, can't abide That's right. Summat wrong somewhere. Now look at our Margaret and Peter. They've got no family, so they've got no pressures like that, they haven't got any money problems well they're not 'appy. They live two entirely separate lives. Yeah, I know. There's is just a marriage of er convenience. Convenience. Innit it. Yeah, it's convenient It's a way of life, they've lived together that long, like, they don't want to If when you and Pete had that trouble, if our Margaret had er been working, I honestly think she would have left Pete. I know. But the only thing that our Margaret could come up with, was why should I, why should I leave me home and sell up, she said, when all my life, he's had money from the house. He'll have the money from the house, plus a wage every week. She said, and what will I have, she said, just the money from the house. She said, and where do I live. You know, he can move back home with his mum, she said, I suppose I can go back home to me mum, well then I've got to look for a job, you know. Mm. And I honestly think that was the only reason that she stopped for Pete. Yes. Because, she's she, he he were gonna get a wage every week. Yeah. You know, and she worked all them years, and then when she weren't working, she have no money coming in every week. Yeah, but she's got all the shares. She hasn't, she got rid of them all. Aye, not with Bl not with Yeah, but you could see, you could see, that, I mean Pete were getting about hundred and twenty pound a week. Yeah. We'll he had his money he won't have to touch, he could live on that hundred and twenty pound a week. Oh, aye, And he could start again. Find another woman and buy another house and start again. Mm. I mean like Jeremy and Kay, I mean, they're not happy. They pretend they are, but I mean like, he's he's They've got to do, aren't they, I mean, after all bloody harm they caused. Yeah, you know, you know how flaming miserable and mardy he is. Yeah. He's another one. But you see when he living with Ange, maybe he were younger then, but I mean like, when he were living with Ange, he had all the women as you know, plus he had Kay, plus he had, you know, Ange, he had everything, there was Kay,as well, weren't he, now he can't. No. But then again, if, even Kay over there with she said something about er, oh we've been out, but, I told you I went to a last Monday. Yeah. and she said something about, oh we've been to that new pub, she said, mind, she said, we had to come home at half past nine, she said, he'd had enough, she said, he were ready for bed, God, she said he's turning into a right old man, and you know what I mean, she didn't, she wouldn't, Exactly. She didn't realise what she was saying as such, but I thought, and I thought, yeah I know. Yeah, well he is, what ten years. Thirteen you got from 'er. Thirteen years difference. She's, how old am I, twenty-two, so she's twenty-nine. Same age as our Kim Yeah. Oh she'll be coming at thirty this year, won't she? You see, she's just coming into her prime, and now he's he's just leaving it. yeah. He's really forty-three this year. Don't work. He'll be forty-three this year, and she'll be thirty this year. The only thing, time that happens is, that is you hear about, Look George if yo if one's fifty over sixty, He's plucking his feathers out. then it works. But when your younger it, or even when you're young, you know, it does. But when you get into your forties Well, it's like, I mean like, It works. I'm me and Colin are settling down a lot compared to what we were five year ago. I mean, like, like now, we were a, say even two and three years ago and somebody'd said to me, are you going to Spain, and I would have said, yeah, we'll go to Majorca, lovely, we could stop out all night, do what you want. Now only three or four years later I'd say of yeah we're go to somewhere a bit quieter, so that kids can go to bed of a night time, we could have a apartment. Yeah, that's right, yeah. Yeah. And that, I'm changing that way, but, if our kids have to be home with the, a group, when I went to see Squeeze. And it were a good group, I wanted to go see. Our think nowt about going and watching 'em. Johnny won't go anywhere like that. Kay's wanted to do what we do, and Johnny's not interested. Yeah. Like went to fair, she went to the riding, he . He said, that's ya like a big kid, going up fair. I mean, look at I mean, that's all she is, yet, she's she's only a bloody Yeah, twenty nine. Well, I like to go on rides. I go on rides, June won't go on. I know. Yeah, well, that's what I mean, Go on, shit. The thing is, like he is even apart apart from 'im being a lot older than 'er, he acts older. I mean, he acts like his always, er forty three, he acts like he's like, fifty sometime, well you you're older than, you know what I mean, he acts older than you, because as you say, you'll go on fair rides and Aye. Mind you, we're we're getting on No, but you know what I mean, I mean, Yeah, I know what you mean. Fifty, Fifty-three. Four. Fifty-three, Fifty-four. I'm fifty-three Your fifty-four next birthday you're only a couple of months off. Well, I'm fifty-three. He's fifty-three. 'Cos you probably do more things. You know younger things, than what he does. And he gotta Yeah. He should be keeping himself young for 'er. Mm. Instead of 'er keeping him young, she's, he's making her old. That's it, yeah. I think Chris on about moving to blinking Gainsborough, now. Gainsborough. Colin were telling me today. Yeah. He said they've had twelve 'ouses them, since they've been married. God. I were talking to him on Friday, and er, I mean, they've not been down there five minutes. Oh no, Road. Yeah. Mind, I never been there 'fore, oh I can't remember, a few years, can't re , last time I've been there. Mm. Well la , last year, when you were doing that painting for er, Derek. Mum. Wait a minute. Er, Derek, paid him off, Yeah. and got Johnny to finish it. Mummy. and er, I I saw Chris quite a lot, then, but I mean, they're not living how they used to do, I mean, they they were always boozing and that, Yeah, I know. she said they'd they'd cut down on boozing and everything. But er, Give up, Sasha. I says to Tommy, why don't they buy one of them big caravans, I said, because every time they get Mum. it must be costing them a fortune, when every time they move, they alter 'ouse, they decorate and put new carpets down and furniture My God, we'll have to Yeah, well, I mean, I mean not Yeah but I mean, twelve times, Karen. I know. You're saying like us, I mean, we wouldn't want to move again, I mean, if we move again, it's 'cos something's gonna happen with his business, ain't it, Yeah. Yeah. But, or because same thing like it were a couple of years ago, with finances. I mean, how how olds their oldest , is it eighteen or seventeen. Is it Mandy whose older, Yeah. I mean, I thought Mandy's er, eighteen, nearly nineteen. So. Oh no, she must be older because er, Vicky's twenty she must be about eighteen. No, she's same age a Treena, twenty. So in twenty years, they've had twelve 'ouses Yeah. And you've been married how long? Twelve. Twelve years, and you've had three. Three. Christ, you better not be married twenty years, Karen, you might end up with another twelve. I know, but how many's your Pete and Margaret have, they had er, Er, they moved, they went on to One, two, three. didn't they. Yeah, then t' Yeah, then, now they went to aye, they went to Oval, went to bungalow yeah some four times. four, yeah, four or five times, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There's only us who never moved. Oh yeah. Angie how long's me mother been in there. I'm forty-eight this year, me mum must have been in there nearly fifty year. And we've only moved into here. In actual fact your Pete and Margaret have moved more, in the twelve years that they were married, I know they've been married longer now, but when,th they been married twelve years and they moved four times, Yeah. we've been married twelve years, and we've moved three times, so we haven't moved as much as them, really. No. No. I couldn't keep moving and I couldn't move like that. I mean, a couple of moves, is fair enough, yeah, but bloody twelve. No. And it's not as if they made money every time they moved, 'cos they haven't, 'cos they lost money on that 'ouse, there. Yes. I won't it. Well, Chris said they moved because er, Give up. er, transport, you know. It would be difficult for 'er to get back'ards and for'ards, and she were on her own all the time. Yeah. That's why they moved. But they moved down, they moved from 'ere because he says, er, Too noisy, weren't it. Too too noisy and dogs were keeping them up all night. Oh. So I don't what the excuse is for moving from Road. Same thing, 'cos it's noisy down there. Yeah. I could scare you, Auntie June. Could ya. Yeah. Go on then. Why people think it's noisy for us on a double main road, but it ain't really. Well, you get used it in don't ya. When our Norma come and stop here, she she was, Used to sleep I don't know how you sleep all night with all that traffic going up and down. No. But we never hear it. You don't hear it. No, we didn't. I remember one first night we stopped there, buses were coming at crack of dawn, Yeah. it must have been about four or five o'clock in morning, and now we never hear any traffic. No. No. Perhaps you get used to. Yeah. But we don't hear many people, on a road like that. No. I were thinking about that bungalow, and, well actually it's as far from our road, nearly as far from our road to there, as what is it from bungalow window to road. Where to yeah. it really is Know, thinking about people walking back as far as t' shopping my point. There nowt much difference in, from t' garden I think the only trouble over there, is your to gonna have people parking in front of ya gate, like when they go to the chip shop. They won't Yeah. They won't 'cos 'cos er, I'm afraid if they do, I shall be out straight away at 'em. Well, it's only a matter of parking at, parking your own car as well I'll clamp the bugger, I'll buy a wheel clamp and wheel clamp it. Park here at your risk. It'll be awkward getting cars in and out, when you know, with one more to be out and, all these cars in road, like, but. That's the only difficulty. You'll probably end up say, leaving one on road all night. Yeah. Don't hurt I mean, Oh, not leaving one on bloody road Well, we could put 'em at night time, it's just through time, if one backs in, comes in behind other. Yeah. It's a one way street and all ain't it, that makes it worse. Why does it make it worse? Well, we don't have to have a problem, do we? No, but I mean. It's like barbed wire, I mean that's, Sasha come in 'ere. What backs onto that bungalow, Karen. Another 'ouse. Another 'ouse. Another 'ouse. Er, I told you what backs onto it, you know the right small on , what you were going to see that time, but on the side. Yeah. We went to see that, Oh. That's what backs onto it. Oh. well, at least they won't be looking int' bungalow will they, with it all being down, No. and that. Yeah, that's straight behind it. Oh. Not like them, I mean, they can see straight into our I'm not sure, but I think it was Mr that had that bungalow built. You know Mr Yeah. Somebody told me that he had that built. Oh. Years ago before he had that 'ouse built on Road. Oh. What you doing with the a cup of tea. Sasha. She's there. She's there. Come 'ere. Georgie babes. Them can be about, I mean, that's what it probably is. That's what it is. Dust, yeah. Oh. It's not so much now, it's so much that, It's not his feathers, it's dust when he when he does that, and he flaps, the dust off his body, Oh. You know like they're always picking their feathers. Yeah. Well, they have right tiny little scales, coming off their feathers, Oh. for the feathers to open out, like it's like wax. Wax. Oh, yeah,li like like birds have. Yeah, like birds have, Yeah, like what they have on the crest. Yeah, yeah. Well, that's that's what they're doing. The problem is, it's dry. They're pulling it off, and when he's shed, he, all floated Is that what causes that parrot to Yeah. Yeah. To er, what call it. Yeah. We were No. Took us an age to cut it. on there. Yeah. Oh,, or summat daft like that, they call it. but, it's like sum , it's like some people of being allergic to different things, you know. No, he wants to stay out, he pulls his feathers out when he's in cage. How do you off feathers, and not off birds. You do, you get it off any bird. Yeah but some are not, not so much 'im 'cos he don't shed his feathers as much as 'im. 'e's not half, 'e's not half as dirty as 'im. I mean, you only have to look at top of that cupboard, and it were don't yesterday. Yeah. That's what I say. Everywhere's white, everywhere white. June, I did I did all dusting and polishing one day He's upside down. And this silly bugger's out, playing about. heard that again. and when she came in, she said, you haven't done dusting. I said, I have, but I bloody have. But she wouldn't 'ave it. You old grot bag. But, I mean, she's done it today, and what she's saying now. I haven't done it today, luv. Well, you should have done. I haven't got round to it yet. I tell you, within an hour of you doing it, it's just as bad. Yeah. Dust. Come in. I probably saw it, Hello. I mean, before, before we got 'im, we could dust and it used to stay all right. Actually dust off 'im, you, some of it you can't even see. The only time you'd see it, as if be in the light When it settles, I think. You know, you see it then. When it settles on summat dark. I know, I pulled I told you, I'm having deliver milk round, didn't I, they're ever so good. I'd only had it round about ten minutes and I thought Aren't you beautiful. Yeah. up there. I was into Yeah, it's cold outside. He ain't. He won't He's watching. He's watching, ain't ya, George. Oh, that Vick that Vick cough syrup's better than that bloody Veno's. Yeah. Yeah. better than Veno's, 'cos Veno's like water. I'm watching you. But that's good. I'm watching him flying about. I watch him flying about. You Last time he flew out, you were frightened. Our Tom don't like it when he flies and yet, they're not bothered about him, that one, that's the one that bites. He's more frightened of you than what you are of him, actually. I know. I know. Georgie. Hello chuck. Georgie No, you'll deafen 'im. Georgie. Come out. Hello bubby Bubby Our Bubbs. Bubby. What you're doing. George. Mind you, I think they were, going back to George and Norma again, I mean like, how she cuts his hair,style, and Colin'll say to me, Oh, aye. I mean, that, maybe that's the way they do it, ain't it, you know what I mean, they'll say, he sometimes when you think of some of the things he does like that. Yeah. Mind you I'll tell you That mohican cut. I'll tell you summat. On a were it last Sunday, yeah it were last Sunday when I took off, er Lisa always goes down to 'elp 'er, when, like what, you know when Eileen cut her finger, what did she do to her finger? She did have it all bandaged up, she were she were cleaning toilet at bottom, and er, apparently there was a piece out of it and she didn't know, and she wiped round it, it sliced it, and it were bleeding like mad, well she came across to our 'ouse, and we weren't in, and then she went to Kevin's and she had she had it, but it, now it's just like a line now, Yeah. Yeah. but should think it had gone deep. Well, Lynn did her shift last Sunday morning, and when I went home, Lisa were home. Yeah, And she says to Lisa, er, when you get to end of shift, you you rule off, what you have sold, everything you've sold, but next shift starting here's your daddy. She said to Lisa, rule off when you've finished, for June to starting, and then she said, did you rule off when I told ya. Well, she went, like balling and shouting at the top of her voice, I mean, she talks to Terry like shit. I mean, I shout and our Let your dad in Sasha. But it's it's like, I don't think I don't think she can. she'll be able to open it, Karen. If I spoke to 'im, like Lisa spoke to Terry, I'd I'd gerra clip round bloody You would that. She talks, she talks to him like Told me how she talk to Terry. I'm bloody authorised and no second thoughts. No second thought at all. cage. Sh she shouts at the top of her voice at 'im. Aye. Is that the one Aye, he's on top of the cage. They're right. She's right. Can I come in. No wonder she's bundle of nerves. She makes and she's as green as them shelves. Yeah. Yeah. Mind you he is useless, Terry. tell the truth, give you that. My knees I tell you what you can't, you know Yeah. Oh deary me. Terry's a good bit older than 'er. Oh deary me. I think he's twelve year older than 'er. Do you know what's up with 'er. It'll be on in a bit, Col. You can't. Oh. Yeah, he does look old, don't her. Yeah. You should see what he's done to his hair. Talking about George. She's made 'im have. He's had, skin head. His hair's only about that long, all over. What you mean, Col. Terry's Yeah. It don't look bad, actually. Mind you, it were falling out that much everywhere else, he wouldn't know the difference, would he. No. But you know, but she talks to him like like, nobody. Well, she'll say to him, put kettle on and butter some bread, and he'll sit there, and he's smoking, and he's continuing what he's doing, you know, and she'll go and do what she's doing, and she, have you flicking arse-hole you to do, and, you know, any, it just goes in that ear, comes out 'ther ear, and just sallies on, and don't take blind bit of notice. I mean, she's got a right squawky voice, Oh, horrible. 'cos I always when she talks she's squawking. Oh, when she squeaks, Yeah. When she when she does get up a few octaves, I cringe. And because it, she screeches don't she. Yeah. Come on,voice is like. High pitch. Yeah. Well we're done for next week. What the Oh saw. What's saw young lad. Chain saw I got. Colin, you know anybody's that's got any white elusion at all. We've er, just give two gallon away. Oh. Mind you, honestly, I wouldn't have put it on a dog kennel. Honestly. I only wanted it for a Yeah, honestly, I wouldn't put it on, if you were stopping a week. She did all our garage round it, she's said it worth it, well, it's been there twelve months, she wouldn't put it on anywhere else. She says it It probably wanted stirring. Na, it was cheap. What a load of rubbish. What. That priest trying to to take a curse off that I've heard a lot of excuses, half are bloody mad. Has he bought as well. Mm. Oh he's showing he cares. There's a big piece in there about ain't there. Ah, yeah. Yeah, 'cos she's just altered it. It's opening to public. Yeah. To civvies. I mean, I couldn't anyway. Well, you can go, it's not er, it's Well go up there for our Christmas Dinner, Yeah, when you get your no rules on the general public, there wasn't a general public, it was only collar and Tie. Tie. But now it's casual. But now he's put a casual bar in as well. He's opened another bar, he when they went bust. They Aye. Doesn't want Said the menu w , the menu was second to none. The meals were second to none, Albert. Mm. What. Always on about it. paper. What you want paper for. it's in middle. No Peter wants about them finally closing his business down. He's still obliged to No, I mean, the C G Whittakers. I was working there other day. Ha. I said people you. I went to put back what he had somebody take out. He were that as well. Well, you know, I didn't mean exactly the middle, go back Well, I don't bloody know, alright if you can say middle, you mean middle. papers. Stop shouting. Shut up, you. No. Go on. You shut up. There's a picture of it going, Many pictures in the opposite. There's a picture of it. Your worse than Albert, but why don't you go to front of bloody paper. You got your finger in it nearly. Well, turn it over. Wow, Go on. No, that's not it, not yet ain't ya. There it is. Now why don't ya, why don't ya go to middle. Page twenty-one. Well, it's not far from middle. Aye. Sixty pages. Well, it's only nine,blo stop flipping chopping hairs. There now, you women. You're women. Nice boys don't holler. It looks nice. Where's the paper of your 'ouse. That's where it can probably be next week or week after, I don't know. I don't think, he he said, he said Lie down,lie down I don't think they've been to take the photographs yet He said, when he come, he said, he can't take a photograph just yet, 'cos it's erm, weather's not good enough. What I'll do I'll send our Coleen in to pick 'er, er thingie up, you know. They usually send it to ya. Do they, Yes. Oh. Mind, it is from er,what they do is send them through the post, just check 'em, make sure everything's alright, ain't it. Did they ask you what you were leaving, and things like that. No. No. Oh. I I forget to ask him, to make it What. I don't whether they do or not. What. See a man about a dog. Oh. Time he got his scruffy If anybody comes June, just say, I have you been in touch with yet, and they'll say no, well, say well, Sasha, do you mind. You'll have to go with Mind you can always say to you caught me at a bad time, you say, it's supposed to have appointment only, but just say, can you, is there any chance of you coming back. Yeah. Yeah. You put appointment only on board. But if you're not too bad, I mean, it don't really matter, does it. No, don't say it on board, does it. Yeah, they put it on board, if you if you having them by by appointment By appointment. only, they put it on board. Stick come in front of that. Right, well. Oh, shit, we're having It's nowt shit. Take us as we find us, Yeah. if they don't, that's it. They don't come and look at your 'ouse, they come have a look at what they can do with it, you now, have a look like, why you got extension and, I don't mind beds being untidy and things like that. No. I mean, you don't look at, your not, who's sleeping in your bed. When ours were, it was a right state when we looked at ours, but we still said we'd have it. Mind, it's just that, it's worth nowt as we've name it. We'll get it right one day. One day, Karen, one day. When the moon comes up and it's in two. When the You got two moons. Yeah, all I wanted was go in and, now we're bankrupt and we're nowt where we are. If we were well off we could get it done. You'd be employing, you'd be employing builders to come in and do it for you. Yeah, that's what I said, it'd be nice, wannit. It would. your half of next door to get some Remember, remember, if you want taking anywhere, it's er, is it four pound ten an hour chauffeurs. Yeah. What I mean you have to put petrol in, I mean, it doesn't No, you have to put petrol in. Do you hell, not at four pound an hour. Walk. One fifty an hour, driving. Ain't it four fifty an hour chauffeuring, and he puts petrol in, and taxes and insures car. Bugger off. Back of the bloody van. You can't go in van with ya, with ya suit on, and Oh, you've got to, you go play your part. You got to have a chauffeur, you'll have to buy me a hat you'll have to buy me a hat you'll have to make it worth me while coming off dole at forty pound a week. Yeah. You paying me in 'and, and Dennis is paying me in 'and and I'll a er, thousand pound a week, the way that I keep getting these job offers. Back-handers. Anticipation obligations. The only trouble is they're only offers. What's happening down here, then, didn't you hear no more about when you finish then, down here at No. Only some bad things, what I've supposed to have done, or what I'm not supposed to have done. But Who cares over it. some money out of it, I took him to court. proven. Oh. But you can't do it without money. No, that legal aid don't go far Legal aid, won't enter enter entertain it. Not for owt like that. No, I'm afraid You see, 'cos you weren't actually employed, you see, 'cos you say, No. you couldn't really take him to a tribunal could you, 'cos ya No, I weren't employed. any money to take him to a tribunal. Well, I made my, I made it plain that er, at the training centre, you know, I says, I says to em, I said er, in my opinion, I says, he doesn't want, he don't want to kn , he he don't want to know. Oy, you. He says any anything what goes wrong, he says, you automatically get blamed for. I told you. He says, well, it's your job not to let it go wrong, I said, I didn't let it go wrong. I said, but other people let it go wrong and they got away with it. Look what I found. I've just called for her money. Corrinne's money. I've,ju I paid her last, yesterday. Did you? Yeah. Well she never bloody said nowt! Yeah. Oh! Paid her yesterday Albert. That means we can't bloody get no cough mixture while she gets home. You ain't give her No. Well well I'll look down our house. Yeah. Never mind. I'll have to, I'll have to go home and see where she's put it. Yeah. I give it to her last night she, when she left here. Oh she's really poorly is June! She's been up erm, with it at night. She were bad on Friday. She was! She were coughing like mad! I wanted her to have complete weekend in bed. Well I, I took bad yesterday, I were, I were in bed nearly all day yesterday. And I was worse I couldn't move! last night. Bloody woke the dog when I went past! Who? Oh! Da Here. dogs outside? Yeah. Yes. But er I sa I said look I said, you're not doing yourself any favours by going to work, and I says, and I don't mind you having day off. No you can't when you're bad. You bloody can't! No, no, she we but she were te Friday she was terrible! Looked ill Well she's like as well, you know. she's worse this morning. She's worse. She's not been asleep a minute all night! No, that's it. So she'll to stay in bed for a Course, I were ba I weren't very well yesterday so I said I'm not very well, but I had pains as well, back pain and all all Yeah. all kinds of pains this is. I says, no, I said I'm gonna stop in bed today. So I stopped in bed now I, I'm better, well No, that's only way you'll throw it off. Yeah. I'm a bit better but I've had to get out this morning to let June stay in ! Yeah. Well I say, she were terrible on Friday, I know. Right then, I'll get off home and er see what's what. Alright. But she never said. She never bloody said! Cos she always does bugger you know! The tight bugger! No, she's in bed. Is she bad? Oh dear! Yep! Can you lend me a fiver while our Corrinne comes home? Mm. I suppose so. She's er no we lent our Corrinne our money Yeah. to get her tax she got paid yesterday Mm. and she didn't, she hasn't paid us it back. So, we're, we're skint and I want to go and get some Yeah. stuff for her. I were in bed yesterday. I know! Oh dear! She said. I couldn't, I had pains all over place! I couldn't speak! Couldn't do erm, anything, I was surprised. Just give her some, bit of these. No I've got some, I've got some better than them. Well they're ever so good if you've got Ah! It, they're only Solphadeine them. Mine's Cocod Cocodamol. Mm. They're a bit stronger than them. Well I thought there must be something, because I thought oh, she must have had to go in early with her not coming in. No. No. She's in bed. I told her to stay in there as well. Yes. Mm mm. You alright? I know she were coughing her guts out here! I know! Er,gi I've done that you know, when I were younger and I'd strained a heart muscle! Oh! Mm. I couldn't lie down for five weeks! I started coughing yesterday and I, that were it! You should have got her a drop of brandy, brandy or whisky Albert. Ah! It's no good them grandma. You don't know. A little drop of whisky does you good. I can manage without it. I don't drink. I like a bit of brandy! I'm still coughing like, but not as bad. Cos I said to her get some of that cough stuff cos I've only took about three times this . What Venos? Ah! But it's Yeah. not a tickly cough she's got it's a chesty cough. And it's dear! It were one I know! sixty five! Well I'm gonna get some for her. Well I paid er seventy five pence for twelve of them er Anadin! Well what you buying Anadin for when you've got Solphadeines I know, that was before I'd started those. Oh! That same. They're about the same. And they keep telling me it's cheaper to buy it. It looks like it dunnit? It isn't them. No. If you went to buy them don't have on prescription now. Yeah, you can buy any tablet off off prescription. Yeah you're right. Any tablet. There's only the the really Mm mm. you know. All pain killers you can get cheap. Well, they're not cheap, they're more e sometimes they're more expensive to buy. But them Cocodamol things what I take She cigs though, but it's them bloody cigs she's smoking! She smokes blue ones! I thought you both smoked the red? No. No, blue. I don't smoke. She only smokes red when she's got none. It's . She smokes mine. I get a cough sometimes I'll to them as well. She went through nearly forty fags yesterday! Oh eh! On her own. Cos I had three all day. But I was saying, but it's, when she used to lie in here Albert. Mm. I've smoked more while I've been like this Ah but than ever I've done! That's all Oh! I'm doing is smoking and eating. Well you shouldn't! I know. Should watch that clock and say I'll have one every two hours. And cut them down by twenty a day. Yeah. Ooh! I don't know what I'd do if I smoked as many as them! Cor! Have you a smoke now? Oh yeah, I've got some. I don't carry them about with me though. Like you! That's right. Yeah. Well I never used to take mine down Oh! town . Yeah. Only if it's nice, you know, it's summer, I used to go and sit in garden with dog. But when And it and cos of like this haven't had, took them down, I'd been down there three or hours. Lot better with se bed than it is settee. Yeah. Cos you go down that way Albert. Yeah. Mm. Never were any good for sleeping on that! Now you kno if my arm touched the back it would start it off. Yeah. Least little thing, even if You shouldn't be lifting it up and putting it at back of your head! Even the I crumple it up like that Mm. and it irritates. You shouldn't have the arm up, you should have it down! No. Resting it. Yeah, you're going to your hospital tomorrow are you ? Yes. The appointment's for nine. It says it could be thirty minutes or half an hour on that one. Well thirty minutes is half an hour ma! Er,thi thirty or sixty I mean. Yeah, don't worry about it. Half an hour or an hour. Yeah. Appointment's usually half an hour. So as you can Well wait. You can wait. if you get straight in. The er , injection. Ah! He's not That, so that it's painless. I shouldn't think they'll give you an injection. No. They didn't last time did they? No I was saying to Carol I hope tomorrow's the last. She, you don't know there might be a letter, you need . Yeah. No wonder he's pushing it through doors he don't want to come within gate. I hope they get to bottom of it. Well I'm fed up with lying . I can get up now, even to go to bunker and upstairs and Aye. It'll be right. wash pots with my one hand! Then I'll, probably have to end up and wash up . Mm. Right, I'll get off to shop and get her the stuff what she wants, and make her her dinner. She wants a tin of soup she says. Well Right. I'll see you later! See you Albert. Nowt you want is there? No While I'm here. Margaret's just doing some shopping for . Fair enough. See you later then! Yeah. Yeah. Ta-ta! Ta-ta! Any cough mixture? Coffee? Cough mixture? Oh! It's over here love. Oh! We don't have it . Don't you? Eh up! You alright? Are you alri yes. Are you? Ooh! Champion! Champion! Ta love! And er some cough mixture then. Which one do you want? Have you, have you got Venos? Yes. For dry or chesty cough? Er, not Ven not Veno , er Vic? Vic, yeah. Yes we have. Chesty. And I'm in bed yesterday, and she's in bed today! Oh dear! Going through it! Tall size that one? That'll do it, yeah. Tammy's not well. Is she got it and all? Mm! Yeah. Yeah, she, she's down at Bath. Ooh! She's full of it! She's been like it all weekend I think. Two pounds forty one love. It er it comes on you all at once! Oh it does! Just hits you. You know , you Yeah. whoop! And yo I was right as rain other day, and then And then yesterday I were in bed all day I couldn't move! Yeah? And yet today I'm Yeah. hundred percent better. Yeah. Queer int it? Mm. Mm. That's how it goes though. See you later! Tarrah love! Tarrah! I thought you were asleep love. I'll leave you alone, let you get some sleep. Do you want yeah I'll leave you alone while you can get sleep if you want. Or do you want some company? Come and sit up here now. I'll sit up here now. Sit up and keep you company, no problem. I'll take my shoes off. What you watching? Nothing really. I'm just staring . Mm. Are they going and er I didn't go in June with being full of cold, I just knocked on door and that got him out. I rang him up before I went down and said I wouldn't be going in, I said I'll just drop it off for you I says, cos er there's me and June full of cold, it's no good letting Ben get it is it? So I didn't stop. Mm. Yeah. Her mother's in hospital. And Terry's took her dad through to hospital cos they put her on oxygen because . And his other won't go. But she was all Terry's Liz were going mad cos she'd through to garage. And then, cos they've got car but well nobody took after Alan. And I said, and what's up with me he said? She said, well what's up with me? He, she said I daren't leave them together two minutes she said our Liza'll play hell out of our Alan! She said, she was standing on her face yesterday! So it's like . You troubles! What does Val want? Eh? What did Val want? Well? Oh he's a Oh! D'ya owt she got nowt else to say then? No. Colin dropped a card off. And it's Eileen's anniversary as well today. Oh bugger Eileen! I said there's no, no way I can get out and get her card or a card or erm By the time you've finished buying cards for everybody June, you may as well buy one every day of week! And I , it's better than them round there, they even sent one another a frigging Christmas card! Who? Laura and Matt. Oh! Well, aye. You're not on her Christmas list yet that were all. Aha. I didn't get one, anything for her. They probably don't believe in it June! And it's What's ? Mm mm! What's those? Oh! Is it young, oh Young Doctors? Fourth of February eight thirty A M. I'll give you some milk cat, but that's all you're having till I get back. I'm in a hurry. Here. Here! There! Make that do! It's gonna really pour! You what? I'm not going yet to Oh oh ! Oh ah ! I'll have today off. You're not going today are you not? No. I'm gonna have today off to make sure it And get yourself back to bed then for the day. then maybe I could've gone to hospital No! on my own if you You'd be there an hour love, it's a long time to sit by yourself. Mm. I know what it's like in hospital, it's boring! As I said it could be a thirty or a sixty minute job. Yeah, but given owt It's either that one, but I'd have thought they would have . I don't think so. It's only a scab. Cos that's whatsername's erm Kenny said that they might give you an injection. They probably put dye or something through to send it aro cos it's three dimensional. Oh! Is it? Yeah. Oh well. It's done by computer. Have they put dye in when they want to sca find the Ah! He said the blood well you see if your blood's circulating. whatsername said he they're not supposed to be looking for a tumour, although that's what they could be looking for. Well she said this scan'll tell whether it's something like rheumatoid arthritis fibrositis, or whether it's pulled muscles or anything like that. I wonder if they'll give me one on my back while I'm there? Mm mm! Mm. Hello Bobby! Hello Bobby! Hello June! Bugger June! Hello Bobby! Come on then! Hello! I can see you! Hello! Have you been a ? Bob! You little scraggy little ! Hello Bob! Got a scrawny neck! Come on then. Hello Bobby! Don't squawk! No! No! Hello George! That's enough Bob! That's enough! I've set him off now ain't I? Well you done summat to him! Come on Benjy! Outside! Before I, we go out. Come on! Come on! Benjy! Are you going out? Come on then! Come on Benny! Come on! Come on! Come on! Mm. Oh dear! It's a lot clearer out there this morning. Yeah. Bit of a wind blowing and all! Oh I hate this! What you doing? We're going out! I'll have them tools out now. Oh! Only a . Ah! But where, the big'un? Oh I dunno. Well you int outside. Oh he's here! Can't see him. He's upstairs waiting. Right! I'll go and get the car and then you are you ready, or what? No, but the cat's coming in. It's only twenty past. It's no good waiting too long cos you know how your mam panics. She'll be there a couple of minutes before. Aye. It's clear today. Not foggy. Hello Bobby! Come on! Hello Bobby! Hello Bobby! Bobby ! Morning Bobby! Give me a kiss then! Give us a kiss! You're off again aren't you? Eh? You're off again! Pack it in! Hello! Hello! Hello! Hello! Shut up George! You'll have that soft bugger doing it! Give over! That's enough Bob! Ooh! Heck! Goes through you dunnit? Yeah. Excited. Hello George. Give us a kiss. Blow June a kiss. George! Bobby! George! Oh! George. D'ya want your head scratching do you? Ah! Have you got some money on you love? Yeah I've I fetched it all in case we we we remembered summat. Right, I'll go and get the car. Better fix them up hadn't I? I know it's Ah! Are you ready? That's why he'll join you over I mean, he'll be leaving it on to get ready to go Yeah. It'll be out if we when we get back. Can I take paper with me? Yeah. It'll give me summat to read. I'll fetch it back. Fergie's amazing letter! With this bloke. Yeah. Hmm! She don't write very well does she? No. Aye. Bloody ! They got more in there than bloody Blackpool tower! In tha hasn't the outhouse next door? What you mean them security lights? No. That white . They've got erm they've got like wall lights like ours but with white balls on You know like . and there's three on then they've got a light on outside of outhouse. When I come Sunday night they were all lit up! It were Mm. like Blackpool tower! I would have known . Cor! I think they're moving again there. Are they? Well, I saw them talking to her they were on about moving away. Oh! To another place? Yes. You know, to that, that big about sixty pounds! Yeah, but they do get moved about a bit. Yeah. You know. I bet they do. I mean, many years when I applied for it they wanted er, they said are you prepared to go to any prison at er at any notice? One of the reason you get took on, I mean, it were only a borstal when he went weren't it? Yeah. Hello! Jack is having forecourt painted. Oh! He's having it pa mind you I wouldn't have bothered. That dirty red, white and blue! They ain't ha they're not three D colours are they? Well he's got a three D station. Or are they? Oh yeah! Thing is, no,yo you're determined on Saturday. Oh! Look at traffic here! Maybe you should have gone other bloody way! Can understand these houses going quick, they're a lot nicer aren't they? Look at this one. Yeah. These are only single. They're not popular are they? No. Dining room too. Well Raymond bought one up Myrtle Road, and he only paid twenty three quid for it and she left all furniture and everything! Mm mm! Twenty three quid? Er er, twenty three thousand. I were gonna say! Twenty three thousand, and she left all carpets, furniture curtains and everything and all he had to do was just move in. I suppose it's lot of money when you reckon it up into today's value. Anyway, when I first wanted to buy us own house when we first got married we were talking twelve how much? Five thousand. Five thousand. And that's for these up here. And that was a lot of money. Mind you, it was when you only got fifteen quid a week. Hard labour. Okay? Right. We're off to see the wizard ! Mm! petrol. Eh? The petrol exploded What? into that . It was by petrol you get a ticket somebody was . Oh! It's same as Michael? They've got it on haven't they? No, it . Well There goes . Well he's out. Is that Mr ? I, dee da dee dee da dee dee da dee dee dee . Nowt in, nowt good in paper. Ah? La da dee dee . There's some traffic on this road int there? Yeah. Crikey! Just look at it! Well I La da dee dee da dee . Must have been raining last night. It was pouring. Chucking it down ma! Was it? Yeah. Yeah. It were raining at five o'clock this morning. And I went to bed about twenty past ten . It were raining last night at what time did we go? Won't About walk to them . Oh God! Look at this! Another fine mess he's got into. Ha! Then there's fog speeders. It weren't late when our Corrinne come upstairs and she said it was belting down. Must have been about half past nine. It's either broke down or it's been an accident because there's three cars there not just one or two. One at either side of road! They had bonnet up though. We'll have to get some plaster June for that wall. Yeah. Where's best place to get some from? Mind you, we'll go buy some and your Corrinne'll be down with half a bag or summat daft like that! That's what I call an idle woman! Just getting paid for nowt! there with your table. Bloody how they, what the hell do they want a lollipop lady on a zebra co Yeah. pelican crossing though! Yeah, but with all the kids crossing to other side like. It's a total waste of money! And there int one on this one here and it's nearest to school! No, but they're bloody grown up children in there. All go to same school don't they? No! That's Hill, that's the equivalent to Hatfield High that one. Is it? A they're all fourteen to eighteen year olds in that school. Hunger Hill. I wonder why they call it Hunger Hill ma? Eh? I wonder why they call Hunger Hill? Oh! Oh! They're doing it on there look! Eh? on there. I said . It'll probably be whatsername's June! What they call him? Him who's er Mm. It wouldn't surprise me now you know ! It wouldn't surprise me at all. Cos you do you've not been anywhere unless you've been made bankrupt in this place round here. Come on! Where you going mate? Bloody hell! The traffic! That's what I say it's er bad time int it between Mm. half past eight and nine? Especially when it's that foggy. La la tee tee ! Rover club. Reading Bailey It's who? Reading Bailey. This time they're out in, in town int they? Selling bloody second hand motor bikes! The Baileys. They're hopeless! La la da dee dee da dee . Eight fifty one. I can't understand why this part of Doncaster is forty mile an hour! Can you? Mm mm. Well you're taking it across there. This is a built up area int it? Houses on both sides of It's wide. road. It's a wide road. These houses, they really ought to be there. But that don't make it, and it's it's still a built up area. I mean, they make it thirty and people will travel at forty anyhow. Nine times out of ten. Is it X-Ray department scan department? Yeah. Yeah. Well, I'm not wrong. I'm right. Yeah. Probably be about fi five foot seven won't you, or summat? That's Eh? You're probably about five foot seven aren't you? What does Sarah like? Said it's between thirty and six minutes. Eh? Thirty minutes ! Between thirty and sixty minutes. Oh that's good! And nothing to eat or drink four hours before your appointment tonight. If you are coming from home wear loose clothing. Well what do they expect you to do? Put down bloody ! You may have an injection normally. Eh? You may have an injection . Yeah,tha I think that's er the whatsername pre type Yeah, but it says them you may have a you may have to have injection but it's painless. Oh! I don't think it'll it be painful. They all are aren't they? Eh? This one was saying, it'll be quicker to go in front they say now or Yeah but if you get in there yo you won't get out I'll drop you in there. I'll see if I can straight back into it there. I would have co thought it'd be better here. Squeeze in there. Come on! Oh heck! I know. Horrible! And when he gets the other stuff they give you that big bloody beaker full of it! Our Dawn told me he's had to go and wait for that bloody pregnancy scan. Meant to have that water. It took her ages! She had to drink a pint of water. I thought she were never gonna, I said to her for goodness sake, drink it! Our Dawn thinks she's at a tea party ! Eh? Our Dawn thinks she's going just for a tea party when they to ask her to drink owt she just takes her time and drinks it. How d'ya do this? Pull i hold the other end and pull it. Is that Margaret and er Yeah. Well Oh all you gotta do is to hold that white, hold both ends of it and pull it, it'll come out. No, I haven't got bloody strength Albert! It is, to join it to that. I feel as if they're gonna put me in a bag and shake me up. And just I went and got cup of tea and I were a lot better. Think you bloody would! That's probably what it is lifting glass up too much. Oh! See what my stars say. , they're all bugger all Albert! Any time you get any money is when you work for it! Ha! It says no doubt employers employers or other individuals will keep on pestering you, and probably add insult to injury, take heart. Your ruler Venus is also sparkling away in the heavens today . Look what you're doing! Never mind reading the bloody paper while you hold the cup! What? If you held the cup and let me get hold of handle I'd have been alright. Go back to bed. I bet you run up and down stairs for all the day. Mhm. Do you like the nice biscuits? I get them all the Yeah! time just, They're lovely! just like that. They're very nice! They're only ninety nine P them June! When I saw them, I thought I might get one every week. And if you want them with chocolate on one side they're one thirty nine. Mm! I said Big deal! about five . Mm. And er, the doctors were giving me them tablets. I were going through one of them a week! Shall we wander down and get one? Eh? I says, Mm! go down and get one. Well, she fetched me another one on Monday. So I've took them in now. They're quite crispy and Yeah! They are nice! Lesley's found them sli er too sweet for her. Mm. Because I think they've got a bloody cheek, you know, asking for a car park fee when yo si from the you've got All it is is to go towards the infirmary you know. Nobody's benefiting er, benefiting No. by it. Could do for some charity. It's not for council. Yeah, but, I mean to say if you don't pay it they clamp you. Then you've got a twenty That's pound fine to pay if they Yeah. clamp you. Well that's if they clamp you that's what they do The thing is isn't it? people go in and park in there all day and you're not supposed to. It's to save people going in and out. Well we know. But unawares you could, they can put on, same as they've done yo with your mam er, up to an hour. That hour can go into two and three bloody Yeah! hours! Well I heard what that bloke said to you last time when I went before, don't worry, once you've paid for it once you've paid it they'll sort it out from there. Ooh! The thing is June if it puts you to some inconvenience then don't it? Of going and saying you've clamped my car and who do you Ah! That's it. and that chap's never there! If we had a perfect world we'd be all alright. And they're always collecting for babies unit. Oh aye! Just like now. Well they are on baby unit. Yes. They are That'll be that's all that's collecting for that er what do they call it? Them that come round and give you exercises. Yeah. Physio? Mm. Yeah. They're always coming, that's right. Well I don't mind owt like that for a good cause June. Mother, mind you don't fall off edge of that bed! No. It's the way I can get ease June, I'm eased when this . In that room where my mam were getting changed there were one of them machines, you know what you blow into Alb? Yeah, but I didn't. Mm. Yeah. There were two o there's always two no matter where you go, there was two in that room they had to fetch me out. There were another Yeah. one in there. Bloody heck! I'm gonna have another day off work and then I'll have to have bath tonight. Eh? Er, I'm gonna have another day off work. I don't blame you. If you can afford it. Well I can't afford it mother! But, if I go back and it's not cleared up it might ruddy come back again! You might get it . I don't think so. It's more my chest than than if it's anything else. That's why June. done about a month ago where it comes up. Oh! Urgh! I've stopped smoking I have like. Eh? I don't suppose the smoking helps! She kept getting a bad throat. Yeah. Said don't it bother you? She said, no, Des smokes and you should have one as well. Well I mean, it's not the warmest of places. I if I'd have been at Jacksons I, I'd have gone back today. Excuse me. But I'm not going out with a bloody cold like this! I never have no time off anyway. He can manage. He can manage . taking dog for a walk. Yeah, he works for er what do you call them? Three D Lines. There's June about five of them all with the same name? Yeah. Him and er Ian works at place. Mm. June. The joke here little girl on a beach says, mum, if I eat enough silicone chips will it increase my bust size ? Shh shoo shoo, sha sha. Our Betty were looking for biscuits and thought when they come the other day but I didn't buy any. I'd opened the fridge door and our Corrinne had got about that much in bottom of bottle and she spotted it. Should have said no,Ju I had three in there but our Corrinne had got some. Claire had fetched one and then our Corrinne fetched the other two and there's that much in. She'd not seen them. In between drier and Ha! fridge. Cos I got some last night. Tried to make, but I threw it out there were none of that sparkle left in it. Yeah. It loses it's fizz dunnit? Mm! I must have thought this morning. It were only his . I wonder they don't want him cos they paying for their own won't they? Yeah. They don't seem to be doing owt to it, do they? Well, what you buy is a little cleared out don't they? And, they do get used to one bloke. Who? Next door's? Yes. Mm. Been taking it for a week or so now! Mm. Rubbish. Wanna read it? Well it were lovely bike erm, Joanna sold! I know. His mam had run it out from top to It was. bottom. It was Maggie's. Hello. And , you couldn't blame her June cos they were only there two years. She were pregnant when she came down she'd nothing when . So I mean, you can't blame her. And, he used to lean over bloody fence while she were digging garden and she were pregnant. He's a big fat lump! Typical her like. Oh! I saw him looking at her, you know, when He had a petrol account at Jacksons. He has? Yeah. He gives him a petrol account and then he sa he's started in the building. Well that's a better way int it? I wouldn't call that lo I wouldn't call that a petrol account. That's paying for his petrol before he gets it. A good idea. That's the time we go to time Well of the week innit? Only wanted a couple weeks. What? What? He keeps getting two hundred pound to pay for his petrol. He must do some motoring then! He No, and you're not always sure if you're gonna get bloody What yo wages or not? What you talking about, fifty gallon? Cos he's As near as damn it! Well, about forty eight. Forty eight, yeah. His other brother drives for them er, can't remember what they're called. Oh! Oh! I know who you mean. Cleaners. Yeah. Be awful if I should say forty Yes! nine. i=If Jacksons, or, for here though. How much is Jacksons? Two pound Two six. Two pound six pence. Yeah, two sixty nine. And It's near enough fifty gallon June as damn it int it? Yeah. We're alright for, to have petrol they haven't had to put it up for Yes. It'll go up again when budget comes in as Oh aye! It'll go up with a bang I think! When's that? Next month? No. April int it? No I think it's March time. They were on about March. Never! Mm. They always budget for April. Not unless he's putting a mini-budget in. Before election. To see how good he is to the people. Mm. Grand job! Ha! You can bet he puts another two and half percent on V A T. As daft as hell! I wanted her to get me some chocolate. I know, they're horrible! Cos our Corrinne must have fetched me some drinking chocolate she fetched me. Mind, I'm not bothered but if you get them little'uns they last no time do they? No. And our Margaret fetched me a big tin of Ovaltine. You're using too much water ma. I know. I like a lot. Cos I don't drink a lot of water like. Mm. The only time I'll drink water is owt like this or if I've one of them Mister Softee cornets. You're only supposed to use a small amount of Yes. water. But I'll . Yeah. We've not been long here really have we? You were only half an hour. Eh? You were only half an hour. I know. Cos she says er she fetched the blanket cos it were cold in there she says I'll cover you up It always is. and I'll go and see doctor see we want to . And she came back about five minutes after she went and you can call me . He hadn't fetched that key back for garage has he? No, I told her. I see her over at Corrinne's. Oh dear ! What's shift's what shift's Pete on this week then? Eh? What shift's Pete on? I think he's on early. I think you told me. Oh! He were on er, he were on evenings last week weren't he? He would be. Yeah, well she went back to school then. He is now it's . To that thing last week, first day. Well that week I phoned him. Week before. Course, he wanted to know if we'd got a video we could lend him. Eh? He wanted to know if we vi borrow one of our videos. Well she's had another and that's not very nice will they? She will when they do. Yeah. I'm not sure. Well, somebody said she were having again, I thought she were having them like . Mind you, Corrinne had hers removed. Has she? The only trouble with plastic Well she is like mine but just the one window opens down side, you know. only trouble with plastic it sweats like hell! Mm mm! That's what they're putting in council bungalows now Ale houses. With them keys on. Oh! If you're gonna have double glazing going to that exte that expense, you may as well get the aluminium and I know, council's put them up with the There's no problem with them then. Cos them plastic things, they do split. And the nature goes out of plastic. Cos that's what Margaret stopped paying her paying for them didn't she June? Don't know. She wouldn't pay for them because th the plastic and all that started splitting and Well, you could go in to shop to buy them don't you? Yeah. A glazing shop. Yeah. Could go in some time or other. Our John never come down you know! It's a good job we're at church No? this, this Sunday. Well he, if he co if he'd have come down my wa he come down at eight or nine o'clock the shops would have been shut. And he goes to that beer up at er Cross Brampt Chase Mm. That's where he gets all his beer from. He spends, all, all his money on . Well ta tha that little shop? Yeah. Across from Chase. You know, at Ashfield Lane Yeah. just round the Ashfield Common. Yeah. He always goes there. Oh well . I want a little loaf. Mm? I say, I want a little loaf . What, brown? No white. I've that . Always . D'ya want it for your dinner love? That Frenchy stuff. If they've not got soft . No mat if you want it for your dinner here better he goes now the Yeah. I know. Yeah. I wonder if they've got a house, Alan? Have you seen him to ask him, like, June? He's got one down Old Road. Has he? Mm. It's only a single one. Oh! It'll do him for now. Eh? It'll do him for now. Yeah. But somebody with four bloody kids in a in a so In a single house. single house! Yeah. Then they give somebody like her that single parent girl, Vera, a bloody big double house! Oh! That's it isn't it? Well that's typical council that int it? All they, all they know is it's an house. Is there four kids there or five? Er four. Four. But she's not that old is she? No. No. Three lads one lass. Cos when he had that first kid, you know, when he moved here and I were asking be nice if you'd had a a girl. How many kids did he have when moved here? Two. Cos she were pregnant when she moved here. Mm. She says, I'm not bothered what it is as long as it's got all its fingers there. Mind you, they're hardy. I mean He said , if I have a football team, I'm not bothered. No especially when you're a dole. It pays when you're on dole ma. And it's cheaper by the dozen. And, I mean, if if he's working and he gets a low wage he'll be able to get Family Income Support. Yeah, he would. I don't think it's worth the hassle though. Well just don't Having house full of kids and being on dole. I said, well some people don't bother. Don't have kids. Well, yeah, some people thrive on it. I mean, look at them next door, twelve of the buggers! Old Ted! But they're all well mannered kids and Yeah. and they're all Oh! Aye. Yeah, they're brought up right. you know . One thing that was missing ! I hope it's like they bloody said! Cos, Claire was saying when they went, they went, they'd been to Wales, France, and Scotland while they've been here he said,. They were having a right ding-dong other day! Weren't they? You know, I were saying Somebody were a having a right ding-dong other day when we were here. They were a having a right ding-dong other day! I know. I couldn't hear them. that's why I locked that door cos I don't know Mm. that anybody's coming in until this come from. Cos I thought about getting a glass and sitting here with glass at the front door ! Well I told you it was her, that daughter. Were it his daughter? The one from Australia. Yeah. She weren't half giving it him! And I thought they called her er he's from Scotland June, cos Yeah. his parents. They've been twice to Scotland, but no well they went there when they come from Australia, instead of coming straight here. These three just come and then they went to Wales. And they went to France for holiday. They go back a month today. Is it seventh, they're going back? No, it's fourth today. Mind you, that's what our Brian did weren't it? They came here. That's what Brian did. And they went to America, then came back. It's Tuesday! I'm thinking it's Friday. It's Tuesday today. Mm. They said it were cheaper to come here, then fly from here to, to America than what it was to go from America, from Australia to America! It surprised me that! I think , there's the there's five of them. She's three lasses June, there's him and her, that's five. Well there's only been and when we will get What's tired all week then? It were that black i er Capri. And one that come from abroad. Is it or not? It's went to Australia. Mm. He's always trying to get our Terry to go out with us. Stanley's the one that married daughter.. Mm. It wants to stay and get that There's an awful lot it were a windy night! I prefer wind to blinking fog! Any day of week. I think it's the fog what gives you all chest complaints on quiet. Terrible this smog innit? Cor! We've had some this last few week. Mind, got your . Been using that thing that we bought. Saunas are no good! They only get your skin clean ma. That's all they're designed to do. Well one of them Whirlpools with water spilling out. We've got one. Yeah, but it's . You're not getting owt till I get a new suit! New what? Suit . A suit? You'll have to wait while our Corrinne gets paid now. Bloody hell! I'll say! I don't think she's gonna get a job and get herself a flat. You've no chance! You're not going to push her out are you? Mother! You don't have to live with her! And she nearly got her bloody marching But you never know last night! you never know, when I do, yous will be left on your own. Well so what! If we're left on our own, we're left on our own and that's it! We've kept her for bloody eighteen years! And what, what, what Well you'll be saying you can keep her for another eighteen. and what bloody Right! thanks do you get! She pigged off, left us with no bloody money! She rang me up to say she'd be home. I said to her you've left wi with no money, your dad can't get no bread or anything. I'll be home in a bit. She did, she come home at pigging eight o'clock! She went and picked our Kia up and went back to Bill's. Then she's wondering She's so thoughtless! then she's saying where is everybody when she comes and we're both in pigging bed! Yeah I know, but . I know, but we shouldn't have to borrow mother when I had to get back, to borrow my wages off Jes to get her tax for her car which left us with no money! Jes paid her on Sunday and instead of telling us how they went round for her wages yesterday and he'd already paid her, and she'd gone to school with money in her car! I mean, what if her car had of been broke into. Yeah! You know, I mean Well, it's same as me lately, I've got my pension book laid on there with my money in and my purse in there. Yeah but you're already here ma. You know, I mean, you but I mean Ford Escorts are easiest thing in the world to drive Oh yeah! away. She just don't think, our Corrinne. I'll be getting rise. Ooh! I get two pounds from work, rise. I've just had a rise on mine. Just about. Where? On my pension! Oh! On your pension. You should be getting Your state pension. rise on your social. Ha! Yeah, cos I've got one on my pension If I get as much as I get June on social,as what I do on blinking pension Yeah it does, I bet that'll mean mine . It'll, it'll make us very rich that! My pension's made up with social security and I've I mean got two pounds, two pounds . what did I get, a couple of quid? Mm. Better than, you're better than nothing. Oh aye! It's better than kick int arse! When they put the pension up,wha they sent me a letter there other day and I can't remember what I've done with it. No. Albert got one. It's just to say that it's not going up as much as they thought. Yeah. Cos I just opened it and when I were just Oh! From Coal Board? I couldn't pu yeah, I couldn't . Ah! But, it's a different pension scheme Eh? that. Mm. Dad working to I got my rise and couldn't the last one. I could never understand that because I thought dad was in in the whatsername? I thought he were, I always thought he were in superannuation. No, that's with the, ah, that's dad's Coal Board that one. Mm. That's what I get . Yeah, but ma ma ma dad should have er in superannuation. I can't understand why he wasn't. I don't know Alb. You know, what your dad's He probably agreed not to go into it like, you know, or didn't want to go into it. He probably But he'd have been, he'd have been better, well well he wouldn't have done. Yeah, the only the time he'd been paid You'd have been better off. is when he has no money. And he had. If he said he had no money he had. He'd always got, he always put his hand in his pocket wou couldn't he? Are you gonna nip down shop for me? Yeah . What do you want? Small white thick loaf? Why are you eating white bread instead of brown? I like it for toast June. Well you can toast brown. I like it brown you know, if I go to a party. Ooh! I can't be doing with white bread now! It's too bloody pastry! It's doughy! Mm. What do you want? Forty fags Yeah. And er Walkingtons small loaf. D'ya want thick or thin? Thick. That's if I can get on . If you can't get it . Alright. See you later. bloody drag it! I try to keep Where did you want that food putting mother? Eh? Where did you want that food putting? Outside June. Oh aye! Cos if it rains that won't come on outside. Oh! Them Why won't it come on? It just won't come on. I bet he's not tightened it up properly to seal it. But it you want none of them on Yo things? And you want me to do And that's your lot for today! go in there? Yeah. This one here. Sorry? I'm not Don't kick you out. I was saying I'm not buying no more! Can you . No, it we Over there. I'm keeping them down. Which one? This one. And you're gonna have to get a chair. I like the other people fixing them because I like having to come round here. Mm mm. Get the bulb June. Is that awkward ? No. No. Cos it's them bloody things we've got! They're bloody working though! I know. Our John spent the rest of the time . That's why they've gone brown. Are they? You sure? Yeah, cos they were too dear others weren't they Albert? Yeah. These are a lot cheaper. And they only, they o they only do same job don't they? Yeah. Try it. See what what. There you are! last night. Oh aye. And the other one's for outside. Yeah. Yeah. That one you fetched, you know. Mm. Because you put it in to, the other time . I put the one what we had in our house. At least it's it's only last night, I didn't know if you could hear, it come on three times and they were nobody there! Probably rain dripping down in front of it. I were right here and I'd got that light out You never know somebody might have just and er come in dark yard. And I thought and it's light out there. And three times it come on on and off! You see, if somebody just come to that corner Yeah. it picks it up. Yeah. And they go and walk back and you wouldn't know they were there. Yeah. I mean, that's what it's for. I think we'll have one when I get ours other house. Why? Haven't they got one outside like er that one? Don't think so. It's got a burglar alarm on. Mm! As such anyway. We don't know if it works. Alright then? We'll see you. If you need owt you better give us a ring. Well I've all for today Albert. Right. Well we'll go to ta Alright. go get to shop. And You're going? Mm. See you later! We're going, yeah. Bye-bye! Mm! Thought I'd put that alarm on. Can't weigh your mother up! Why? She come out of here and she couldn't walk. She bloody ran to car when I, when she got out of chair! And when I asked yo and when I said to her, you were in toilet she got up and she ran across there! Can't weigh her up at all! I've give up trying! I don't know what's real and what's not real. I think she puts a lot on for you, for your benefit. Who's that? Oh dear!in a wheelchair now. Who? Pat . That'll be another scam for her to get money! What's Radio Intel? Builders' merchants I think. Your bi oh they're putting a into pigeons! Yeah, you've got to admit it's the best pigeon outfit ! Right! Better than other one innit? Aye. A lot better. Look at state of ours! I know but Corrinne never cleans it! What are you doing? Hello! Hello! No mail? Wow! Don't look like it. No bits of letters? Eh? No bits of letters? Well what we gonna do? Are we going to go down? Oh! Now that's bloody stupid that! You've let us get in, take me coat off, and now are gonna go to shop! Wait till our Corrinne comes in. Well,. Well what we ha we have those chips for dinner anyhow. I'll tell you what I'll do, I'll yeah. It's a bit early yet anyhow. It's only eleven o'clock. Hello Bobby! No! What's up with you? June's upstairs. Hello Bobby! Hello Bobby! Who's a clever boy? Alb. What? I don't think I could eat chips. I feel bloody sick! What d'ya want, toast? Yeah. I think I'm better off just having . Well it's too early yet! I mean it's only eleven o'clock. What do want? No I don't want See that looks a bit iffy! Oh! It do dunnit? Yeah. Get down boy! I'll have a cup of tea though Alb. I know. La dee dee da . What's the matter then? What's the matter? Eh? What's the matter? Ah. Where can I put this? Alright! Alright! Just settle there. Settle there. Come on boys. Oh! It's a Walkman. George! What you doing? Er, it's in the other magazine I fetched from work after the I'd left them at work. Oh! That's the one I found out what mine was . Mm. Oh! Look at black hair on that hooker! We've seen that, haven't we? No. Well I've not. We've seen this one. You can't! Cos it's a completely new series with him innit? Well he's never been on before. Big baby! It must have been two month old. Where did you ge get this from? Er, whatsername bought it for her. What they call her? Leigh. Go Albert will you stop pratting with that! You're turning sound up and down like a yo-yo! Says about mine. The Ox is strong and reliable, a practical person with a head for business . She gets one every year. But bloody hell! I'm sure she's picking out . Cos you know he's sitting there! She's, saw her in town today. Yeah. They walk from Bentley into town for all John's . You can try and put them I thought it must have been . She says they've got a student teacher, she's only about twenty three . Anyway, is John alright? I mean, where do you see at the beginning ? Will you geroff my back! lucky he's not feeling up it, he's feeling everything else! keeps biting me! He tried to grope up back of my thing! He's doing it again! Oh! He's in a playful mood int he? You're cheeky! Do you want one Corrinne? Go on then. I bought a packet of these and he opened them, took one out, and put them back, and put them in his pocket. And he said to me, I said, that's, do you want one June? And I said no. Geoff said look at him! He's putting them back in his pocket, he don't ask anybody if they want any does he? And he goes, I can't see you buying any! I couldn't get over Des asking me if I wanted a bottle of beer! I nearly passed out on floor! Not very often you get owt off a businessman June. Er, Corrinne. Er, has he fetched you that letter yet ? It's Des what's sorting it out. I forgot Oh! to ask him for it. Don't push it! Bloody hell!too much anyway. Oh it were Julie's birthday yesterday and she didn't tell us. She didn't tell us till today. The miserable bugger! Mm. How old was she? Thirty four. Thirty four? Oh no! That's why she didn't tell you ! No, she must be thirty seven. Bloody hell! Summat like that anyway. Helen's older than her! Cos hers is today. Terry sent her a card and wrote on back, all my love Terry. Can you lend me a fiver ? And what Liz say ? She di She knows what Terry's like. she didn't get the hint. It's the thought what He went and bought her a sherbet it's flying saucer! Ah! Ah! Ha ha! What did Liz say to that? I'm surprised erm people round corner didn't buy her a blinking blow up doll doll without the wedding tackle. Well I'm not kidding you, you know when we went in fish shop last time we were there? That Pakistani, or Indian, whatever he is, that's got a fish shop, he's bought, we were in there five minutes and before we came she knew his whole life history! Was he living in flat by himself? Did his mum and dad live round here? Who was that? Er where was his girlfriend? Who were this? Liz to this, to this, in the bought fish shop up there. Oh! Cos they, when I went in that shop it's, he'd tell me he hadn't, he'd failed his driving test. No. Oh that, to go to top of Broadway. It's nearer this one. Been for my test today he say, and I failed. I says, what a what as, a shopkeeper? He says, no my driving test ! I says, oh! Well he come into garage the other day and told me his wife had kicked him out! Eh? He told me his wife had kicked him out! I were killing myself with laughter! Oh they got some funny ideas some of them! These are not as hot as they usually are are they? No. I thought they were right mild. I mean you used to be able to go ah! Ha! Ha! Ha! Mm. He's toned them down a hell of a lot. You're not supposed to eat more than four packets in twenty four hours. That reminds me, I've got that box and all, the you know when you took that bo that box of Twix back that time what do you do when you take them back? Go to whatsername. What? Go to that counter. That square place where you don't Mm. normally go in? And do they take them off you? No. They give you a, a credit note and you, you go put them back. Why, are they outdated like? No. I fetched double Twix instead of single, you picked wrong ones up. Ah! Oh it would be me! You picked them up love! I said to you, are these right ones? You said, yeah. No! You just said Milky Way? I said, yeah, and you picked them up and looked at dates and chucked them on cart. Cos you were checking dates. And they won't sell will they not? No. Derek hardly sold any. Hadn't he opened them like? No. It were me that realized we'd fetched wrong ones, not Des. Did you get any money back when you took that box of crisps back that time? No, he we, he was credited with it wasn't he? How d'ya mean credited with it? He got a credit note. Oh! I wonder what he's done with that? We've got them Milky Ways to take back yet. Have you today? It's only Wednesday innit? It's only Wednesday today . It's Thursday tomorrow cock! Yeah. Are you working two tomorrow? Is it two? No. On Oh! Friday. Friday is it? And then most of Saturday afternoon and Sunday morning. Mm mm. I'm on Saturday afternoon and all day Sunday. I might do this car Saturday morning. That's the only time I'm gonna get to do it innit? All depends if you're gonna leave it there while you do it. Oh yeah. Oh! You mean, while he's at work? No I mean we ain't got much choice. Unless he decides to go away and leave me again! Does he pay you extra for doing car like? Well they give me a tenner for hoovering it out. For hoovering it out? Bloody hell! Hoovering it inside. I hope you're not taking my One-Step? I'm not as it goes! Got her own stuff! Oh! You've got all that stuff. Nearly up to there innit? What? That One-Step. That son of a gun. Er . Put it into soak. I've not done that car out for ages. I've done this. I did it last time. Yeah, but you haven't done mine. Why? Th they're on their own. Mind you, it's not cutting out now. Not at all. Good job you haven't got Liz's, hers broke down yesterday! It's not cutting out at all now? It stalls, I stalled it tonight but well I just caught it. Don't get settled cos I have to go toilet. You know, I told you that day Ju I saw Julie walking down top of Broadway? Mm. Her car had broke down. Oh oh! That's what I got now. They've just had it brought back from whatsername's?haven't they? Who? Who? Julie! Well they got a Sierra she's on about a Fiat. I were gonna say it, it's checking Fiats . Which Fiat? She's got a , and she's got a Fiat. She's got a Fiat Strada. Did she? She's had it ages! But her dad's got well Stu's dad's got a Sierra ain't he? Mm. Mm. And Sierra's are if something jerks it cuts the fuel line dunnit? Mm. It stops it and you've got a button somewhere on your dash what you press to release it. Well they didn't know and they to it were towing Julie's car and the tow belt snapped, and of course when it jerked this car forward it cut the petrol off. Or what Shouldn't have done. Well it did. And he couldn't get no petrol for it and he had to call A A out. So she had to walk home and he walked home ! It shouldn't have done that. Not on, not when they're, when they're already in motion. Set off with the towing Julie's car and the tow rope just snapped in two, and it jerked both cars and it cut off the fuel. Well he should have just zoomed off! It shouldn't have jerked his, should it? Yeah, but you've got your feet down and you're towing summat, and then suddenly it releases, it just goes er forward a bit dunnit? See that bit in That doesn't paper about that Robin Reliant and he's done it all up and it does hundred mile an hour! Hundred and eight! I wouldn't fancy going down no bloody motorway, hundred eight in one of them! I tell you some of them Robi I bet , I bet it's I know! he had a Honda Civic engine in it! Oh, oh dear ! I shouldn't think anybody'd insure it! I'm surprised! Then that bloody prat towing down motorway at hundred mile an hour! Towing? Yeah! Towing a Car! towing somebody down motorway. And they're going hundred mile an hour! He had a new Fiat er what were it? Don't know. I just know that it The next one up from ours. Oh! The one that er oh! Oh! The Corona? Corona. Coroma? Coroma? He had a new Coroma two litre and he's towing this bloke on motorway at hundred mile an hour ! Have you seen ? Well Terry came down last night. Well Will you have any exams this year? Got loads! I've got about twelve. For what? Everything. I've got I've got one in March for definite. What exams? Yeah. I don't know. I think I've got one in April. You don't pay for them though do you? I hope not. Ah! I hope not and all ! I have one in April two in May And what are they all on like? three in June or two in June and then when we go back we've got about three in September and we'll have some more at Christmas. They're not mock exams are they? No. Proper exams. I've got my Red Cross in stage one, my R S A part one and two, stage two. I've got shorthand Pitman not Pitman, R S A, shorthand Teeline shorthand Teeline again at end of one, end of year. And I've got another one in word processing, hopefully. I've got my audio. My audio o transcription medical and I've got my Teeline medical. Oh! Mhm. And then after that I've got er that thing in for my exams. My proper diploma exams. None of them, there's only two of them that are to do with my diploma. All the rest are at fortunately. How long will you finish this? Middle of next year or end of next year? It'll be July when we take the exams. That's when the course will actually finish. What, this July? No! No. That's right. But I don't know how long it is before I get my results back. But you can get a post as a medical secretary in a hospital or a G P without having your full diploma. If yous let it, cos to get the full diploma you've got to get your two skills which is medical audio, and medical shorthand, you've got to have them two skills to get the diploma. And you've also got four papers ethics and etiquette you got an English one, a medical aspects one, and a clerical skills one. Not a clerical skills one, but, office procedures. And you've got to pass all them, plus your two skills to get the diploma. But you can resit any what you fail the following year. Mm. Mm! Teresa says, the only one what presents any difficulty is usually the medical aspects one. Well why should that present anything different? Because it covers such a wide area. It says the English paper you only need, you only need seventy five percent for your erm it's seventy five percent pass rate. You've got to get above seventy five to pass. Yeah, it's That's quite high that, you know, seventy five percent! Well it's got to be ain't it? The office procedures, she said, is simple anyway, and yet, ethics and etiquette is a, she said, and your teacher works you that hard and it just drills in anyway! No, but, seventy five percent is a high pass rate. Well I don't know who she is that sends letters out to your nana, but she's bloody useless! She misses more words out than she gets in! And she just writes over them in, in pen! If it's her computer though, they might just erm, thingy it and change it to suit them. Well it wouldn't be on word processor. You don't know. Cos it's,the you're supposed to that's what it's for so you can check all your spellings. A lot of them letters that come out are already done and you just delete Gonna say that's they're all on word processor that's what I'm saying. Eh! I got a pass, oh I got a distinction for, we did er like mock exam for word processing, I got a pass. Whatsername her in, her the launderette were asking me er she was, she were on about I, ain't you got a job yet? I said, I think I'm too qualified to get a job! She said we she said, well aye, you might be. She says, int your daughter i er a nice girl? I said, well aye sometimes! ? She's seen you in there. She says what's sh what's she do? I said, oh she's at college. Oh! Really? I says, she says er what she's studying? I said, well she's er she's going in for medical secretary. She said, well where does she get her brains from? I sa I said well who do you think? I says, I'm over- qualified for work, I says, and it looks like she's gonna end up that way if you're not careful! She says, oh! So she said, I think she's ever so pretty! I says, aye. Said, pity her manners don't blink er mannerisms don't match her looks ! Teresa's on about erm a she were asking me if anybody'd be interested into going on to higher er education after this? And I college yet! Yeah, but you get, you don't get no grant for that. What college? . But if it's only a part-time so you can actually work part-time that's the difference. Yeah. Fantastic salary if you get qualified! It's alright if you can get day release from your work to do it. That's what you want to be after, day release. Yeah. They're trying to make our course into a three day a week. Erm, nine till six at night. It's a long day though. That's what I said. I mean, you get we get a mental block after three three o'clock us ! You do. I mean, doing shorthand for four hours a day, it's too much! It's far too much! Well, just think, when you're working full-time you'd be working nine till five. I know, but it's different when you're concentrating Mind you on studying and when you're concentrating on working. Billy , er Billy 's one of Billy 's daughter-in-laws, she, she does it part-time. What, medical secretary? Yeah. She's er Good money at part-time! I know. That's what erm that's which one of them, who were it telling me? Er I don't know whether it were the young lad that comes in, or whether it was Jes that were telling me. Mhm. I can't imagine it being Jes. I think it were Jes what were telling you . Well it might have been Jes cos I don't know tha well they've got, I think they've got two children. And she were doing it full-time and then she went she had children and then she went part-time. But I don't think she's working . That's one advantage of being medical secretary I think she's just had another baby or summat. cos if you get in a big organization like N H S, they provide a creche. Mm. And thi I mean, you don't have to pay for the creche cos it comes in the, it's part of your Well thingy. part of your job innit? It's like nurses at hospital innit? And they've got a hospital. Mm. Well that's the creche what you get into. . That's why a lot of people will go into medical secretary who have children. Has Sue got a job at all? I don't know. She's not interested. No. I think she'll be married shortly. I can see her marrying him. Yeah. But he's one of them lads where she'll never have owt, cos he don't do, he won't bloody work will he? Well he's doing taxis. Yeah but Ah! It's only a pound a it's not . pigging hour! He's on dole! Well I'm gonna report him! Mm! And he, he's getting one parent benefit! He'll be getting all sorts for that young girl! As soon as he gets a house she will leave home. Yeah. He's not so sure of that. What's happened between other one? Have they had an argument like? No. I just don't know. She's got two men. I know, but always nice to know. Bit of scandal now and again. You're getting worse than a woman you, now you're at home! I know, there's nowt from men though is there? They say women are bitchy but have you ever heard a conversation betwe No. conducted by men? They beat us easy. That back door wants rubbing down I think don't it, before you paint it dunnit? Yeah. Yeah Oh! Oh! You are listening then? I am listening! Are you? I were just thinking where my sander were. It's, Mick's got it. I must fe Mick's got it. Mm. Did you clean that cupboard out I asked you to do? No, I forgot. Which cupboard? That one where oil's kept cos it I, the last time, I cleaned it out last time and put a some kitchen roll in in a plastic bag on top but it's all over again. What it wants Have you see how that unit's all cracked under sink? Mm. I can't understand why it's cracked like that. It's what? I ca It's all cracked! Mhm. I, you don't know why it's cracked? That one where we used to keep rubbish bin. I cracked it when I put it in. Oh! I knelt on it if you remember. And broke it. I can't get over that ruddy idiot in ! That what? That idiot in . Moving all that stuff into, a washer, a cooker, in middle of floor like that! The cupboards are nice! I didn't like them. Well they're fairly nice tha They're alright. They're alright, they're passable. It don't matter if they were . Yeah. Nice aren't they? Yeah. I think they're too alike but after saying that, they're quite nice and he made such a bugger of them ain't he? By putting Put them in the wrong places ain't he? I mean what he's do I, I know why he's done it. They didn't what he's done, he's thought well I'll just do that and incorporate the sink in it. Yeah, but fancy putting sink up in corner like that! Well They can't put a worktop along that wall under window cos it cuts the unit off. If it'd been me and I were gonna put it there, I would have put a window there to look out of. Or a door there. Yeah I know. Well I can't understand why he wanted to move the sink from where it were! No I can't. I think it was in a lovely position. They could have had cupboards right round there,rate along there if they'd left Rate? the sink. Mm. You say worse words! Rate round there! Rate round there ! Ah. One of lasses are getting married, at college is getting married in July. Is she? Registry. Mm mm. Always say we got married in registry office. What's that gotta do with owt? Have you seen that picture of my nana? Our Margaret says our my mam lo I look like my mam looks there. Do you know yo a we where the hell did your Margaret look? I think that Aunty Margaret looks more like her. I were gonna say,yo yo she looks more like your mam than any of them. I think she does. Cos on that photo, my nan's got a right sort of face hasn't she? And gifted. Cos Aunty Margaret used didn't she? Yeah. All the time. Your Aunty Margaret's thinner now than when she got married. And just as bloody tight! Ooh! I can't cough and I can't move. Don't start again! I can't afford to have any more time off. You're not having any more time off, I've made my mind up! Jes said, I thought you'd have been off rest of week. You know, you can't weigh him up. I gets on telephone, I says June's not coming into work today . I thought you'd told him I were having a couple of days No. off. I didn't realize you'd o you hadn't said that I'd be off a couple I said of days. she's poorly in bed Yo you didn't. Jes said, I can't let June come to work today. That's right, she's in bed poorly. He says, I thought aye! Aye! What's gone off? After I'd been talking to him about leaving. He says that's a when, he said I can't let June come to work he said I was he said first things that went through my mind were someone's decided to finish, what's gone off? Well you ain't that . I told him you were poorly. Said she's poorly. Well it was, he had to go to er Heldon yesterday. What for? He said Dawn rang up er, oh! He said Dawn was swimming on a Tuesday he says, but because you hadn't rang up, he said, I thought oh, she must be coming to work. So he said, our Dawn rang up and said I wonder if she did my shift on Monday. Er he'd, and she said er she says to him what you doing today? What you doing about today? He says well June must be coming in cos she hadn't rang up. She says, oh well I'm going swimming then. He said, well I, I, I won't need you anyway. He said, then half an hour after Albert rung up to say that you weren't coming to work, so I were right in shit! For some reason Jes was out there, why can't he get Jes to do it. Well he and Jes were doing summat. Oh he were washing windows other day. Which windows? The shop. He had to,i th he was up on ladders and they were washing o you know sign up on top? Yeah. He cle he scrubbed all that! And did all windows ! Must have been about Monday, or Tuesday. Well the Jehovah's Witnesses come in last week before I come off work, must have been Thursday, they said you haven't seen window cleaner lately have you? I said no. I says, I had to clean them myself last time. He said, I'll get onto them and I'll tell him he has to come and clean your windows he's been a bit busy. I don't think he'd been for about six month. No, well it's not that long. Look at this bugger, eating Victory V's! He'll eat shit on bloody shovel if you give it him! He won't eat them Hacks! Mm. Are you surprised? Them menthol ones you bo you bought me, God, they were burning my throat! They're good though aren't they? Yeah! Mm. And my throat were on fire! I didn't dare breathe out! He likes them. I bet he does. He don't. Cos it hit bottom of cage. No, I've hoovered it up. Well I took it out, a load of it out this morning in my hand cos he were nearly sitting on it! Mhm. Like , they gotta haven't they? Oh God! Th they're different. I said to Jes he, the only bird I know that can shit through side of a bloody cage bars and, and get it through! He says, I know, Carmen used to go crackers that's why she went and fetch him here. I know, you'll have a carpet have to do it, do that again. I know. We done that tonight. And Benjy likes them! You stroppy bloody parrot! You stroppy parrot! Put you on your chain and take you out! You bugger! I can't see how that chain fits on him! How does he put it on him. He he lifts it through and pulls it till it goes on his leg. What you doing you bald headed bugger! It's alright. He, he can't see that a dog! Daft! Mm mm mm. They're both at it now. You daft buggers! Are you gonna sort her out Barney? Mm? Benjy? Georgey! Ee! You're not having any more! No! keep trying to reach that picture. You straggly little thing! Have you seen mess on that floor in back of that, in office? What, or what? All bloody mud and stuff they've got all over it! My pumps were a mess! Mind you, somebody had cleaned all toilet out, I don't know who. Or sink, cos sink were clean, and toilet You were clean. two want a bath. Well I put bleach down it on Saturday. Yeah, that's disappeared. The Domestos bottle? Tomorrow morning Disappeared. I bet whoever did toilet out used Tomorrow morning rest of bleach bath. Probably. Wanna bath? There weren't a lot of bleach in it. I was actually gonna open it put some bleach round the edge. Well somebody had cleaned all sink cos sink were there weren't a mark on sink when I went today. Dawn must have done it then. But all the wash cloths had gone. No wash cloths were there. Well I washed owt what was in the toilet again on Sunday. It's a waste of time cos they just splatter it all back up again! I know but I forgot to take my typewriter hadn't I? Got all this stuff to type up and I'd forgotten my typewriter. You should put a notice up, if you make the mess, clean it up! Oh! They'd not even washed Or it'll stay! all stuff off the What? the taps. They'd bloody take notice down and push it down toilet! No they won't flush it ! Mind you, I don't know. Well they wi I'll tell you now bloody toilet! if I worked there and they didn't do it, I'd just turn round and say, no you're not having the bloody key until you can learn to keep it clean. It's not so bad now because tap's working again. They're not washing in like they were before. Have they got it fixed? They must have done. It weren't running today. I just bi I went outside, I mean, I was gonna go outside five minutes before and not notice anything, and I went out five minutes later and I heard this water running. And I looked up at tap and this water were pouring out of tap, I thought oh! Must have run defrosted. I went to turn tap off cos that's what I thought it were. Yeah, it were that. And it were running out! And it were coming down to tap. So I got out the car and I went over and I, turned it down, as it were turning down I saw it wasn't pouring just out the tap, it was also pouring from the Yeah. pipe in the place! I don't know who fixed it. He said he were gonna get in touch with somebody. Oh! He's always gonna! Oh! Then this bloke came in how long's your tap That's enough Barney! been running? I says, I don't know I've just rung him about it. It's wasting precious water! as if we have enough droughts without we it, people like Ooh! yous lot wasting water from ! Who's this? You should have said, the tap's nowt to do with us it belongs to him that has the garage! If I had my own way, I shall tell him where to shove his petrol! Right Who's that? I don't know who he were! Got nowt to do with him how much water you use at the garage, it's pa you should turn round and ta Yeah, but it was pouring all over the forecourt. You should have told him that we pay for it by the gallon not by the year! Geroff! It's nowt to do with you! You get some funny buggers coming to garages you know! You get some folk who . Bloody do! I bet . My wo is that one at garage? I mean, with frost and whatsername we've had just lately they can expect bust pipes anywhere where they're where they're not protected. Did you see that top of Broadway? No. They've blocked off Broadway tonight! Oh! Down here? Yeah. Yeah I know. Made a right mess! Been like that a couple of days. Yeah I know, but it weren't that , now it's got it all wheels to top. That is the bottom. Yeah. That's the top. You're going up the hill. Oh! It's . You don't go down a hill. And you don't go down, up the hill. You go that way. Eh? Go up hill that way then. No. You do. It's down hill all the way. But, it's not. Especially at top Well it's only that little bit of rise there. Not like going up there. Did I tell you Chris's wife were pregnant? Yeah. Claire made it on the Sunday, I said innit about time you took your wife out? He says why? I says, oh, she were right depressed when she came in. He says, why? What's up with her? I says, she wanted to go out Saturday and you'd gone to work. Cos me and my brother had been working on wagon again. And with it being a nice day. He says, oh no! He says, I feel awful we were making plans that being the week to go out so they had trouble with wagon so we had to spend some time on wagon. And he says, it weren't bad enough me not going out that day, but with it being nice weather and all. Aye. It is in June. Get the door shut. It's shut . It can't,ho he can't hook it. Oh! We'll have to learn you George. Have you seen her hair yet? Mum? She's had it permed What's the matter with you? she's had it cut into bob and permed. Oh! Had it cut right back. Oh! She's had it cut short then? Well it er, about that long, about my length weren't it? Cos she always used to have it in a pony tail. D'ya know her? Yeah. Mum? Cos her hair's ginger Yeah. innit? Yeah. She had it cut to there and permed. I, I can't remember if she's had it done straight or not. Cos underneath it, I mean it didn't look nice but when she lifted it up it's how mine was, like it is now, flat underneath. Mm. It's gone like that straight away. She said, well if it's like this after one night, what's it gonna look like when I wash it? So,sh I mean, it cost her thirty five pounds! What? For a perm? A perm! And there were fiver off it. I tell you summat, I'd a, go back! I remember Kerry, quite a few years going to er to Bins in town and it cost her twenty quid! And that's a few years ago. This is Geoffrey 's. Oh well. I you know, his ordinary name's Oh! Geoffrey 's? Geoffrey . I remember once me and your Aunty June going have our hair done there and when we come out it was snowing! And it just went poof! And it cost us a bomb! She paid thirty five pounds for a perm, and she got a fiver, she'd got a coupon for a fiver off. Lee's er paid for Liz to go and have her nails manicured tomorrow. Cos, er, that Angeliques at Thorne. You know where They must be bloody crackers! you know where that whatsername is? Er er, Fox that barb er that hairdressers Oh, oh yeah! on corner of Yeah. Bridge Street there? Mhm. Well Angeliques next door. She did my make up Oh yeah. when we,ma when my mum had been married twenty five years that time. Well, she she waxes Lee's legs but she goes she goes to part-time so they get it at a reduced rate. Not having my legs waxed! Just about Epilady, but I couldn't stand them waxed! You think you can't neither! What women put up with! At least with Epilady you take a rest if Have you seen that new technique they have with honey and warm thingy? What's an Epilady? It pulls them out. Oh! That thing, that roller thing? Yeah. Why have you got one? Yeah I no it don't hurt. I'm just wondering what waxing does though. They've got er The only time it hurts is when it nips your skin! a, a new thing Mm. out now and it's like erm it's like tre er, it's like soft toffee. And they roll it over like that Like with wax? and do it like that. Ah! Little bit at a time. Just looks like just looks like toffee and they just roll it like that and then do it like that. It's only a little bit and they take it off your lip with it as well. With wax? Lip and No, it's a new It's summat else a new thing it were on Tomorrow's World other day. Same as the, as the wax though innit? It were like a it were like a a toffee. They mix these two things together and it went like a It looked like soft toffee. Summat gel they call it don't it June? Mm. Summat gel? And they just put it on leg and just put a little bit on like that and just went ee ooh! Ee ooh! Ee ooh! But it were so quick it were untrue! That's how they were doing it. It's like that It's more relaxing at home. Oh aye! Oh aye. Takes ages! that electrolysis, that's the best way but it takes ages. Well, it'll cost you Yeah, even that you've good week's got to keep your feet up for so long before Yeah. it kills the Er i takes them out What with all the advertisements on, bloody You are recording other side? It's Sky , oh! It's Sky Movies. Was gonna say. They do have them on now and again. They have them on a lot now. What a waste of a good car! They'll have a parachute on it I expect. I don't think so. Yeah, but you do for a programme. Can't see no bloody parachute on there! I think it'll be a cardboard unit. Could be superimposed. I suppose they could do it, yeah. Superimpose. I did a lot of revision on my spellings yester for a spelling test, Claire didn't turn up. We had a medical aspects test. She don't half have some time off them bloody, that teaching staff! So we had an extra hour for dinner. So we had a walk round town. The dinner hour was spent revising for a test we're supposed to be having on. We've got some you've got to learn these terms I wished you'd know, you could have took them Milky Way for She give us all these, like diseases and we had to learn parrot learn them the definition for them cos she were giving us a test on them. She said, not to bother. Spent an hour revising these things! And, she said oh, we're not having the test today. Yeah. She'll probably drop it out onto you tomorrow ! No, we don't have her till Friday now. She give us th Oh! even I couldn't do them. Ha! Bloody Road House were on other night! Right! It had it's last play blinking months ago that! Total Recall's on at the Savoy isn't it? Mm. Should do some typing but I can't be bothered. Have we seen this? Yep. Benjy! Stop biting your toes. We've still got that tape for a couple of a weeks. Haven't we? No, I'll ring her. I'll ring her on Fri on Friday night. Ring her mother, not her, cos it costs you extra money when you ring her on that bloody telephone! I don't envy whoever marries Janine. Not very nice thing to say. She's a funny girl is Janine! She has her ways like everybody else. And you say Janine's moody, there's nobody worse than me! No, I know that. I don't know. According to Janine's mam. Ah! How much of that can you take then? Yes! One thing she told me I mean, Janine will tell you herself. I mean, actually lots of things her mother had told me Janine had already told me. Mm. And that Mind you, I think she were a bit frugal with truth when she said that first lad she'd gone with and she got pregnant. Is that what she told you like? Yeah! Tell you summat else. It wasn't the bloody last night that That thing on her neck well it weren't a bite, cos it'd have gone by now. No. She's got one on her face now. Yeah. Yeah, I don't know. I think it's this month that Lee goes back to see the specialist at whatsername, Bradford. Who? Lee. Oh aye! God! You're looking awful. Lee can't breathe Liz has got psoriasis and Lee's got whatever it is she's got ! Their bairn's always being sick! So Claire's got God knows what! Gerry's got idle-itis! As long as it ain't got work attached to it he's alright. Oh! His hair! It's awful innit? No, I think it's alright. I think it's awfully It suits him. short! It suits him. No, I don't think it does. It suits him, aye. Bill upstairs calls him a pillock Corrinne! Yeah. Oh! Make a cup of tea love. stew you know like it is a beef ah, but it weren't mince meat, but it weren't stew. It were. It might have been mince meat just ti cooked in tins. But we shoved some veg in it. Where did you get that from? Tracy. Cos she thinks she was asleep. What, when I went down for , so I called back later, about half an hour later and she was awake so I just took her then. Who, Kia? Yeah. She were asleep when I went down. She's always asleep! No. She don't sleep at night. That's it! I mean, she'd been asleep What? Well it were two o'clock when I were down there half past one. It were one o'clock Monday I went to pick her up. It were twelve o'clock when you went today, when you dropped me off at work. Ah! There were nobody in, I went back. I we I got down there and there were no bugger in! They did that to me one day. She sa Mick said fetch tape down, so I says alright, I'll be down in a bit. I got down there and there were nobody in! So I went back later on, I says, why weren't yous in? And she said we were in! I says, you weren't in, there were no telly on, and I brayed the door down! Oh! The telly was on. But the door were locked. And I brayed on window. I went back in the . So I thought, oh! have you done owt on Choleacs disease Corrinne? Any what? Done owt on Choleacs disease? On what? Choleacs What are they? Well they spell it it's not spelt as i if you, if you were talking it really, you'd probably, you'd probably Choleacs disease cos it's spelt Ah! C H O L E oh we've done Choleitis or something. Yeah. Summat to do with gallstones innit? Not not Choleacs The gall bladder. disease. It's it's they're allergic to gluten and it makes the inner bowel inflamed so it gives him Oh! Like Margaret had? In they've got to have a certain Our Mervin's wife had it. Yeah. Have they got to eat certain things? They have to eat gluten free, they can't eat So you're not allowed to eat bread or owt like that No. Because Yeah, they make special without yeast or something Yeah. don't they? It's gotta be gluten free. Mm. Erm But more women suffer from it, than men. We're not , we're not on dietician foods. And it says it's connected to something and that's why more women suffer from it than men. I can't rem I were reading about when I were in hospital on er Tuesday while waiting D'ya know more women su suffer from multiple sclerosis than men? Yeah. I think they suffer from most diseases than men. It's same with rheumatoid arthritis, more women suffer from that than men. And that's got something that's conne this bloke's come up with something Something about moving their bottom jaw or summat innit? and i it's something to do with the hormones that women produce that can er, and it's got to cope with this thing. I keep writing dates on calendar and forgetting to look! I say to our Corrinne every year, write all dates upon new calendar and then I forget all about them. It's like many of us though June, they don't know What d'ya mean? In other places only two of us, and neither one of us sends Christmas cards. Thank you. Cheers! Yeah. Dawn, you're dead pleasant! See you! Bye love! Who'd waste a card on her! Well they go up to I ought to remember that again. Never. Before wait till you get to your fifties Dawn. No. I don't know when Have a par we'll have party. I'm not doing my or my fortune. Who? She were blotto! She was legless! Anyway, I'm gonna have to go. Yeah. See you! See you tomorrow. What time is it? Oh! Oh I've left my lights on! Half three. Three. Tarrah. You'll have to wait till tomorrow . I've come to get my shoes for . at my shoes ! No! Oh! in fact, I took it for a taxi up here from there went to pit club, we had one in pit club and a game of bingo, went to Peacock we had one in Peacock and eat our sandwich. So, we got a taxi, I says look here Jack I'm not getting a taxi it's my birthday. Don't be such a . We'll go to Fox, we had one in Fox, went to asked for for Alan and Lynn and Lisa. We're not taking you home . And told her. So I went to you and I said June. Just coming out! I'm down like this! I'd got my shoes on and I were, I just went flung my shoes and flung my handbag, I went oh!like that to Linda. Linda's. And I thought ooh! I wanna be sick! And I missed kitchen and went all over flo over kitchen, I went urgh! Then he's saying go on Corrinne have a look! I said, I'm going to be sick! And I were in, took me un got me undressed, put me in bed I can't remember! I enjoyed it though. And that were on a Wednesday and then on Saturday when I went and asked him come home, got changed, and went down to the club . Oh ! Then I remember walking down with a lovely bouquet of flowers for me. Well that's it Ah! Ah! I were crying again! Oh! Oh! I were . Mm. Never do when I'm on. Never! No, it's nearly always nine o'clock when someone . I tell you, I bet she's really narky! Oh God! She'll be in a right nark! Oh! I wished I'd known he were going, he could have swapped them Milky Ways for me! Yeah, if I'd have known he were going there. He could of . Yeah. I wanted to swap some Milky Ways. Oh! I've picked double up instead of single. Put them up. Eh? Put them out. You can't really can you? Are they wrapped? They're not wrapped together? They're all in They're not wrapped. No. No. The double wrap . Get it picked then you Kit-Kat. What's that with new top on? Mm? There, in orange . Bulbs. Lucozade. Oh! Ah? It's Lucozade is it? Got a new top on. It's only Lucozade dear. Oh! Could do with some of that. So could I. Right! We're away! Right. We're fibbing. Ba Bye! Bye! What's that ? Fifty four. No that's not right. Oh! Terry! Oh! D'ya know Look! You'll have to slim down. He keeps telling me he's gonna put me on that Micro Diet again. I'm gonna put her on that er I said I'd put her on that Slim, that Slim diet. Tha what, what they call it? Not Micro Diet. Slimfast. Is that where you get blow up things from? Yeah. I've not seen these. Oh! Come on! What you doing? Switching it off. Oh! Is that June's boyfriend then? Well that Phil, he's a screw I think. Ah ah ! Or a, he's either a security bloke or a screw, I don't know which. I think he is security cos he's been in a couple of times hasn't he? Yeah. Used to come in with his uniform on didn't he? Yeah but you can't tell screws from security can you? Well, I think he's just security. Whoops! Bit of wind. La, la la dee . Oh! Eh up! Bloody hell! Whose dustbin is it? Bin's have spilt out. There's. I had to move it other week. Don't worry. Leave it where it is. I'll manage. Hello cocker! What you doing? You gonna need bath? Getting tired of this box around here. Six foot ten. Who? What's more, he'll knock him out end of this round. shock of your life! You having a nice time? Where's granddad's? You giving granddad one? Where's granddad's kiss? Not, I'm not buying you no more then! Oh! I'll get you no more Buttons! Say thank you to granddad. Don't I get a kiss for them sweeties? Do I? No! Come on then Mick! Get kettle on, don't blinking sit there like one o'clock half struck! It's not very often we come. And you, you come even less to our house. I know. You don't often go our house. Where's my kiss? Oh! You're shoving them in. You're putting them in too many! Now! No more. Oi! No more. Slow down! Did drop her other little people off Mick? Yeah. That's somebody else innit, we've we've er we've not seen all bloody week! No. Not had it yet What's that? Not had it yet then cocker? You look like you're getting taller! Do I? Mm. It's, Micky's hanging her up! Put the kettle on then. No! Now, how dare you say that! Where's my kiss? Come on! Come and give him love! No! Oh well! Did you bring them pyjamas down? Not friends then? Are you been in bath? Watch the cup! Been in bath have you? I'm not friends then! it wants cutting, she can't see! What you doing? Well I pushed to play with that er he don't like the And what happened with that? one of them. Eh? It's shut it. Never touched it. What's that? What's them? Changed channels on it's own. It's on there. And go, where's the ? There. Nana couldn't buy you one last time she were at Were you? cash and carry next time. On there. Yeah. Cos they didn't have none last time. Not them! No! One of my Are they nice? mushrooms? Are they nice? Ouch! A sort of zip. Albert. Come and give us a kiss! They're nice! Yep! Urgh! Urgh! We've got ants. What do you call that stuff that you put down? That they take back to nest that kills Ant powder. them off? No it does, doesn't it? It's not ant powder. Oh! That sugar stuff what they take back to nest? It's like sugar but it kills them. That's right. They take it back to nest to like feed the others so that kills them off. It's dead sweet so they take it, they feed to others Yeah? and it kills them off. Oh! I'll have to get some. The only thing what you can get them to I don't know what it's called. to get to nest. And that only kills when they come out. Yeah. No! They're hundreds in nest, but this stuff Aargh! Aargh! Aargh! like little sugar bits and they pick it up and take it back to nest Oh! Oh! Oh! Oh! Give me a kiss! Urgh! Urgh! Did you like that? Mm. Eh? Did you like it? Mum, mum. But it's just like you, ah well, you see an ants' nest in the room . Watch . There's millions of them. Listen. Whoa! Ah! Ah! Ah! I don't know where they're where putting Yeah. the , so Look at that little fat tum! Or in this one. Why have you got ants now? No. In the morning there's it's usually One then like. shoe. She always says one, then two Do they fly out when you she never gets any further. Three. One. Well not really. Not really. What you could really do with is leaving Two it out for a Three couple of days when it's gone really cold three and kill them. We've not had any today ha we didn't have on till later on today have we? No. We went out last night. What time did you light it? When? Today? Did you go out before you were coming to bed? No, it was still in, but not much. I mean, they shouldn't be out at this time of year cos the you know,the They get in all the chairs! they hibernate don't they? I Yeah but Oh! yeah but, yeah but, they're not Oh are they? like in all the They must be time. When it's cold. They must be nesting in here somewhere. What behind bricks. fall off ain't Yeah. it? There's gotta be a brick somewhere under here. Yeah! Well they run There's a most of the time. Er er er er! Or in between Well can't you find out where the Well I'm not digging pigging floor up! No. But is there no holes where they go Yeah. through? You daft! You, go on! Not really. You see in this We, usually they see them round there don't we? Wah! Yeah. You see them down here But, we've seen them on this side as well! So they might But we seen them over here as well! So we don't know whether they're in that wall and all. they might have even gone and made a nest. Yeah! What you want is that sugar stuff what they'll take back to nest. Ee ee! Yeah! Mm. Just can't think what they call it. Ooh! Ooh! Ooh! Well there was some and this morning Ooh! Ooh! I know Ben! Let the fire go out last night and we've had it out all day haven't we? Yeah. Since what, five o'clock. Tic a tic a tic tic a tic a tic a tic! Aye. You'll probably get them tomorrow then. Tic a tic a tic a tic a tic ee! But we had them this morning. It's in the morning when you see them. If you've left cups out they're usually in cups and all. Have you eat them all now? Oh! Have they all gone? No. One left? The trouble is if you get her boxfuls she won't stop until you eat the lot! Ah! Don't put too many in. Two in at once. Don't put two in. She's had five in her mouth at once! Thank you! Oh! Bang! She likes them friendship rings you know. Like jelly things? Like a, they're like a jelly. There's one look. This bloke looks like Len . Put it in pot and everything. Yes. Thank you! Got a broken . Yeah. I wish we'd had. Have they all gone now? Ah? Have they all gone? They have! Have they all gone? No, we've got one left. Your nana's got one. Are you ready? Catch! Catch it! Catch! Wee ee ee ee Ach! ee ee ee ee! It fell. Oh aye. She never does. I don't think she wants it. No, she's had enough. Whoop! Whoop! I'm surprised . Wee ee ee ee! Oh! Lovely paper! No, I was for today and I've gotta go back the week after I'm due. D'ya want a cup of Dawn? What time do you go hospital? That week af When are you due? The sixth, you'll be flipping hoping you've had it before week after you're due! Yeah. Well I went back No! Da! How long did you go over with her? Da! I think I had appointment for week after she were due and I, and then, and then I ended up going to that Didn't they say owt to you when you think they'd have it? No. Well it's only guesswork isn't it? Ye well I thought, haven't you had a scan or owt? She's had two haven't you? Yeah, right at yeah. Eh? Right at the beginning I did. Oh! You don't have any more then? No. No. Not unless they think there's something wrong. Mm. Perhaps I've not forget it then cos that's, that's there's about ! I'd have thought Well, that's alright. you'd be going ou finding out what it is. They'll only tell you if they're doing it anyway. They'll not do it They er Oh! If you wan they had to tell you when Ooh! they're actually doing it? Not unless you have to an amniocentesis and then they'll tell you if you want? We're alright with another one like you lady! There's nothing wrong with her! She's a little angel when she's out of Aren't we? house. Where's that Is she? baby? Yeah. She is a little angel. Tell granddad. Where's that baby? She knows you've got it there. Ah lovely! Is it there? Took her out other day and she played all day. You getting a little sister? She goes to sleep now, she tells me when she's tired and she gets in pushchair and that. When she gets Yeah when in her sort of chair and whatever. she started playing, she just playing up cos she banged her head at Tracy's. She's alright. She started crying The thing is she gets tired. Yeah that See you Mick. She gets tired. She started doing that funny face when we had her last time! What? They've all gone? What when she's tired? Yeah. She does. She doesn't cry. And a bloke come in garage yesterday, he's just one of them hoovers like yours. So I says, I, I were telling him though, I'm going ten o'clock my car needs done! Not bad are they? No. No the er I think there as good as Vax but they're not as cheap There. as Vax. There. They are! Cheaper! Yeah. Are they? Yeah. That's why I've got it. Could have had a Vax. It's the cheaper one. Th th the cheapest one like. Aha. They said it well it like, and he said were as good Do as what a Vax were. Yeah. You know. They are because a th the in the good feature about it is that and the Vax, that doesn't bloody fall over. It's drawback if, it's doesn't hold as much fluid. Yeah. Yeah I know. I re I, I, I've it got a monotonous filling it up. Yeah, to have it filled up. But you don't have to empty it every time do you? Yeah Kia what you done to your leg Kia? I usually I usually fill that you know that thing what you fill up with liquid? Yeah. Kia! Er the fill that up twice You have to keep chasing that. and then empty it. That's what I were doing, twice. Yeah. Every two goes. We did kitchen when we bought some carpet cleaner didn't we? I like the idea of the pipe going up the er up the inside d'ya know what I mean? Ready! Steady! Yeah. In your Cos you haven't got all pipe Yeah. switched all No! over place. Kia! Yeah. Don't! Kia! Get Kia! Then all you've got to do is take the I'll get Kia! take the bag out. It's gone! I bet she's had it. Well I've got to change the complete unit. Cos Yeah. one's a dry unit and one's a wet unit. You're supposed to use bag in that when you do it like, but ? What, paper bags? Yeah! Yeah, you know, you know when you put your filter When you're drying in, you're supposed to be a bag in first and then your filter. But when you put your filter in it won't run because by time your bag's filling up it's pushing your filter in. That's what this one's like. But then. Until we get the bags. What you mean? It's a Come in here. I'll show you. When you're do it dry. You noisy little bugger! Then put the top on. Oh! Alright.. Put your filter like that. You put your bag on that. Oh! I see. Yeah. See what I mean? Yeah. But when your filter's in it's Er, well it's only to protect that. Well this is really to protect this, mostly. No, I mean, it's prot it's to protect the bag. The bag? The cloth bag. Not unless you keep Oh yeah! taking that out and keep it clean. You've got to keep washing that. You'll have to keep washing that to er What this? Yeah. What about your dummy? Cos the dust'll deteriorate it. want to bring it up? And my shampoo. Well, they told us not to wet it. That's why they told us to keep it out when you were cleaning. Oh aye. They told us not to wet it. Yeah, that. While it's That. wet. Well while it's dry, it won't wet will it? Yeah. I think . I know we never used it. But you put that, you put a bag in now put your filter in, it just it lids your bag but your bag splits because there's no room for your bag. There! Yeah. They should be dome-shaped bags shouldn't they? Yeah. Then they'd work ! They'd go down bottom wouldn't they? They'd cost a fortune and No! all won't they? No! No mother! I'm only doing Oh! She needs it Corrinne! Well th well that that filter's mainly to protect your motoring. Yeah. You know, so it don't get covered in dust. This is what I'm saying whe with it, with it being Where's your other go? There's no er wet filter in. What ! you call a wet filter to Yeah. I know. Benjy likes you in you when you feed him don't he? to stop the water going up into motor. Yeah. He always runs after thee! And I thought it you know Yeah. Yeah. Our Corrinne brought the car home didn't she? Yeah! We'll get it back. Well like, only bit of piping you mess about is that That little mind you, it is a bit of a What that? Yeah. It takes ages! It could have been ma I tell you what happened to me. I backed up onto it I backed up onto it, you know, when I was do ta and I were hoovering away, I thought aye aye! Water's gone out of bag. I turned round and it were all right at back of my jeans! D'ya know, I thought she said that I weren't coming I knocked the pipe off back. and it comes out of hoover. Yeah. And it's squirting all over my pigging leg ! I thought, oh! . He, don't she, she keeps saying damn? When she were Yes. at our house the other Saturday, she were playing and she said, I said, what did you say? And she just went on saying it. Bit like your parrot don't repeat nowt! I don't know where she's got it from! Yeah. I sa we thought maybe she were saying Well I don't say damn. down instead. Oh! I forgot them little green men. Can you hear her saying it? I'm wondering if she's saying down you know, like cos they fall down she saying up, and then she's damn. She might be Up! Cos I can't think where she's Where are they? There. What's these on floor? I don't think she's saying damn, I think she just . Yeah, I thought she were saying damn, so maybe she were saying down. Cos, we've heard her say it but I can't think how she can be. I don't know where she gets it from. Nobody uses it. I think she must be saying down,it just sounds like Er! Bom! Bom! He's got long hair and all. she keeps saying it ! That other gonna be next world champ that Michael . Are you sleepy then? You think so? Yeah. Are you sleepy now? Yeah. Between him and that Lennox bloke. Ooh! Woo! Woo! What you doing? Well did you see that one other night? Kissing. Erm I think we saw somebody Are you putting that extra line on this week? and then we went home before. Eh? You putting that extra line on this week? Who? Are we putting that extra line on this week? Yeah. Yeah. I'd have done eight more and then move across . Who were that? We're gonna have that, we're gonna have that million. Who were it boxing we were watching other night, when they were messing about? Oh! World champion. Er who is it, middle weight? Were they middle weights? Oh! You mean erm Yeah we do. Him who knocked Michael Watson out, who's in a coma? Yeah. Yeah. Him. I thought it were rubbish! You know He couldn't have played with him Did you see him? if he'd have wanted to! Di did you see him though Mick? He were just messing about! That's, that's who he boxed that Michael Watson in first place. And beat him. What like that? Yeah. That's, that's all he does. You know how he does like moved off him then He just stands back and looks at them! Yeah. Well, I'll tell you something, he's gonna get in ring with one,som with so with a fighter one day and they're gonna knock seven colours of shit out of him! Hope so. That Michael Watson give him some stick. In fact, if he hadn't have knocked him and out and put him in a coma in last round that Michael Watson would have won it. Yeah. He did half batter him! And he just gave him one in last round and that were it! He's in a coma. Is he out of of hospital or is he still in? No, he's still in. Still in, but he's I think come off He's recovered. he, he's recovered, he's come off that life support machine but he's still Well I thought they said it were over? They said he even thought about giving it up didn't he? After he Oh! Has he, replay. It's just his way to talk to them, that's how he, that's how he boxes. Dead funny boxer! But I I was, I was bored to tears! I thought they were gonna play some music and let them dance! Int it terrible! Oh! But then again, that's the first time he's been in ring since all day. Yeah. him and Michael Watson, and he won. And then it upset him Well I'll tell you know for my money he didn't deserve to win. No, I'd have thought he'd have put up a better show than that. You know, because i it was absolute, I was bored to tears! Then you, the way they spoke about him they thought he were brilliant! They were thought he were brilliant, but he wasn't! Well in some of he boxes like that and once he hits them, and he knows he's hurt them, then they Oh yeah! get stuck into them! He's a heavy hitter, admitted. Yeah. What's happening in But er Tyson case? Has anyone been on telly? Well he's Well they're trying to set this trial aren't they? They said Tyson admitted it. Yeah. It's er, admitted something with a ho hotel . Oh! Whatever The what? the jurors were saying. They wanted to bring they wanted to bring some And he had. Tyson's lawyer wanted to bring some women in or summat, these three women what would say what other, like go against her to say erm that she wou just wanted him Yeah. Oh! I read it in paper about it. They wouldn't have it. They, they says no. E evidence is no good if dismissible or summat, admissible whatever. Insu not ins admissible. Inadmissible. Inadmissible. Yeah. And er They've got to tell the hearsay innit? Although, saying th at this big do what they were having that when Tyson walked in this one woman says that that beauty queen and this other woman were singing that Money, Money, Money by Abba. Yeah. And somebody had said to her erm said something about him and her, and she says well, she said he he's, he's I've got the brains, he hasn't got nowt, she said, he can just give money and I'll be sitting and spending it. Yeah, well trouble is, if he gets found guilty Oh yeah! than guilty. Yeah. But then again, he'd have had a he don't go that He's, no. Well He's like that can go up to sixty three years! Th they'll go in back in in America with judge and he'll a he'll agree on th you know they'll say okay The Bring the letter here. Oh! You can give me one of those. Mm. Come here a second. Come and sit down. Is it a ? It's from the Marc Angelo Food Bar which is the flying pizza delivery service. What did you do at school today? Wrote in my name book. What's your name book? You do your name in it. Aha. Sit down. Well, tell dad what you told me about you're And I got a star. You got a star? Well, tremendous! Tremendous! And it wasn't a sticker. Well Don't want any Is it writing your name? Mhm. It wasn't a sticker star . It wasn't a sticker star? Mhm. Which was it? A drawn star? A marking handwritten or That's great! Daddy, they've run out of gold ones. Have you? Mm. Are they going to get some more? Yes. Good. What's this then? Good. Er, son, you're looking at the menu. Erm, it says it's a lamb curry. Which is quite funny for a place that's supposed to be a pizza, flying pizza service and they curry. Interesting! Mhm. Looks good. What about erm what about tea? What are you having? Chosen that fish that . Mhm. Could do. Get it cooked. Daddy! Mummy! herself. Mummy! Mummy! I made a new song up! Did you? What's that? Elly Belly Bee. Elly Belly Bee? Elly Belly and Elly Bee when they grow up they'll both be . Very good! Mm. Did you have that at singing today? Mhm. That's great. Where's your brother? There. What have you got? We don't want that on! Come here a second. No thank you! No. Come here a second. Come and tell me about nursery. She had to buy fifty pounds' worth. How d'ya get on at nursery? Cash. Fifty pounds. Of what? Fish. She bought fifty pound! Who did? Jenny. Oh! She's daft. She said, did you get the fish stand? The guy from Newcas The guy from the guy from Newcastle? And I said, yes, I said, and I said we bought we bought a pack of each. She said erm, she said oh oh! She said, well we had to bu we,ma made it out that we had to buy erm the whole, the whole box, it cost them fifty pounds! Fifty! And you would of sold us that too if we hadn't asked them specifically what was in Well that. I couldn't find freezer space that's why I didn't push that. Michael! Yeah? What did you do at nursery? Er I played. If you want to play with that Jonathan What about go upstairs. what about glueings? Okay. What about glueings? No glueings? No glueings. Can I go upstairs? In a minute! In a minute! I just want to find out what you've all been doing today. Daddy's Oh. interested. So put that down for a second will we? Play with it later. We can do. No glueings? No gotten Forgotten? Forgot. Thank you. That's better. Painting? Yep! Forgotten again. Forgot. Got. How can you forget? Did you tell your ma daddy that Mrs was off sick today? Who? Mrs . Yeah she is. But she's not your teacher is she? No. Poor Mrs got two lots of children and they were driving her up the wall! Did she? Did she have everybody? Yes. And they were all mischievous, including you know who. Er, I got a seat this time! And you got a seat this time . Good! That's terrific! I got one of those square seats. A square seat? Were they square? Were you did you play? Er What did you play? Daddy, I was making making the keys. Making what? Keys? . Mm. Making keys on the play board on the piano. Those are keys look daddy! Those are er sharp and flat notes. What keys are these? They change the erm What? the tone, they change the tone. But that's it. That's it. What did you have for lunch? Er I had eggs Daddy. sausage. Eggs and sausage ? Mhm. Daddy! Daddy! And what else? Daddy. Nothing. Look! I can Egg and sausage? What kind I will of egg? Yes, I've been, I've been looking at this and see what I can play. See what you can play? Mm. Mm. Daddy's burnt the toast! Toast! Oh! My toast. Silly me! Fire! That wasn't very clever was it? Burning the toast like that. No. Egg and sausage? What kind of egg? Mm? Don't know. Was it a whole egg with th the yolk in the middle? Mm. Or was it scrambled egg? Mm. Scrambled egg? All mashed up? Yes. That's good. Daddy! Daddy! Dad I want to play That's good, that's good for you. the piano you just had there. No potatoes? No. No? Why not? Only a pudding and some juice. Oh really! What kind of juice? Orange. When did they stop doing potatoes? Haven't had chips for a while. But it's something like a health week or something. Mm, the twenty fourth of February. You can't get chips? That is. No. They said No chips at all? said all this week this week I think. How miserable life's going to be for you. No chips!! Dear! Dear! I think they'll come back. Michael! But Jonathan you are supposed to have Are you hungry? something else in place of chips. You're supposed to have mashed potato or boiled potatoes. I mean, just because you don't have chips doesn't mean to say you can stop taking potatoes . He's just fallen down the stairs! I fell! He went You fell? How far did you fall? That far. I think. That far . Right down to the bottom. This, this high? Right down to the bottom. Yeah, it was only about four steps. You big clot! Mummy! You're a great clot Why are you working on that on the stairs and anyway I went right down to the bottom! Did you? Did you hurt yourself? That's because there are coats on the stairs that you fell over! Well you know where the coats should be. Put your coats in Mi in Michael's bedroom. It went up to there and slipped down again. Wasn't funny! I didn't say it was funny, but you look funny. No,I don't . Yes you do. Yes No. you do. Come on. Let's sort things out. Yeah. Yeah. That's great. Richard phoned. Seeing what I'm doing. He's playing golf tomorrow. I said er couldn't because of Johnny's er appointment. Well if it's too much I'm planning, I'm getting tomorrow, you can just get a check over, just wanted his blood test. It's the discussing it that I want too. I see. , but the consultant might do. Yes but she can give advice. Yeah. She's quite attractive actually. Erm I think Michael . I'm not sure. I'll see. But it's far too early for me but I'm just interested Well very. in what they've found. But what did he say he had? Egg and sausage! Yeah, I'll tell you what got more sausage. Boys! Come down a sec. I don't want to go to Come on. tonight. Where did you put that mince? seen them. I didn't put the mince anywhere! You said there was mince in the freezer. I can. On the top. Where's that ? Mum! At this rate actually I might try this Marc Angelo Food Bar and see what it's like. We've got ham with eggs on and I'm gonna That take one. Can I do one? We'll see. Me? You won't do it again? Alright. Give me that. Go and tell daddy what you did at nursery. Jonathan, never mind go and tell daddy! You come and tell daddy. Oh! God! What did you say? What did I say? I thought you might be What did I say? I am reading a menu. Well I've got it now. Now don't bring it down and play it here because I know. you make a dreadful noise! And I want you to come and we'll sort things out. D'ya know what's on the T V tonight? What? One of your favourites. And this time it's the one programme that you can watch. I want a . What? The Crystal Maze. Yeah! I've got it! You like that don't you? Aha. What? I can mend it. The Crystal Maze is on tonight. Daddy I can look. Cos I looked it up in the paper! Daddy, I may not see that one. Stew Two, three, four Well they can have stew and five what have you. six, seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve That's thirteen They're not bothered. fourteen, fifteen, sixteen, seventeen, eighteen, nineteen I'll sort out later what, what I'm gonna have. Nineteen! We'll see. And That's daddy's machine, don't touch it. Don't touch it I said! Leave it! I can't hear any music. It's not for music it one of those, his machine for work. What does it do? It doesn't do anything Jonathan! I want to know what it He uses it for taping i at work. But er, why's the I can't hear it. It's not working just now, mummy's just recharging it. Just leave it just now. Leave it. Recharge it. Recharging What's it yes. Er er er, er er er er. Mummy, can I have some more juice? Sit down there. Erm Sit down. Do you want me to play some games or something? Yeah! Good! I don't wanna play my Ah! Snakes and Ladders! Do Snakes and Ladders, will you promise not to cheat? Ha! Okay. That one. That one eh? Go and sit down then, so I'll do it. I want that one. Ah? I want that one. Oh. Michael . Right okay. Let's play the game! We are, we're Ah! here. Play it! Play Hey! That is how mess gets made chucking that around like that. Right. This is easy. Is it? Do you want your milk? Phew! Right. What are you going for mum? I'm going for a red. You just, the two of you play. No, I don't wanna play. Yeah. I'm just tidying up Jonathan I've been cleaning it. But You start, you play this game, I'll join in the next game, okay? Okay. Watch the . You just put that down. Which way are you I'm going over here. Are you yellow Michael? Ah. Whe I'm here. Mummy, we've got Mum, you get up slide and then we don't go to there. Well, I'll help you, I'll be round, I'll be here helping but I must I want to get on with some work. Okay? Alright. Right. Yeah, but I'll make it Pick a colour. What? Pick a colour. Yeah. I'm black. And Michael's got red and yellow. They've only got up to these ones, we don't know which numbers they are. Erm well I'll help you. Jonathan should know the numbers. I don't know that one. No you He does nay not know that one. I'll help you. But I won't be sitting playing I'm gonna just pop backwards and forwards. If you come to problems I'll come to your help. Pick a colour. But, mum Pick a colour. my, my, I, I, I aren't you gonna ? I thought any colour, it's you who is playing. Mummy What mummy! I've got a good idea mummy! We could do your go for you. Yes you could do. That will get complicated, you'll get muddled up. Yeah. Yeah. Your a Mummy I'll go for blue. Right you're blue then. I'm gonna, I'm gonna be that colour You're the yellow. I'm the red. No, mummy's got I've got to go first. I'm the red! I'm the red! I'm the red! The top one. Here. I'm red or I'm gotta get Alright. my trousers Well back on. Aye do. Michael, I'm starting first. So give the dice to me. Do you not realize how cold it was out there? Mm? No. Not till I get this side, ah! Ah, you're standing on them here! Oh sorry . No, no you didn't know my feet was there. No I didn't. I didn't see it. No. Not . I'm starting first ! Here. Don't whine will you Jonathan! I'm starting Jonathan! first . Stop whining! Jonathan, I'm, I'm If you're not gonna play it nicely I'll put it away. When I get trousers on I'll . Right. I'm nearly there. There. Okay. That's good. Unless you go outside in shorts in this weather. Middle of January! One, two, three four, five, six Move this lot. seven, eight, nine, ten! Right. What have you got? Five. What have you got to get to to One One, two, three, four, five. Oh well we'll forget about the six to start with it takes too long. Five is here. Right. And can you move yours five Jonathan. Okay. What colour are you? Red. I'm, I'm this colour. Ooh! One, two What colour's that Michael? three Green four No. Yellow. Yes. There. I should be on five. Aha. There. Fifty five! Oh yeah. Oh! Sorry. I'm just going onto there. Er, behind the ladders isn't it? You can either go right across in front of it, you'll have to go to a number. Right Michael. But can you play with cos I get I'll help you get started, mummy's gotta get on darling I've got tons to do! Well I don't know which number mine is. Right which colour did you have? Give him the dice. Oh! Boom! Jonathan, stop that! There. What number's that? One. One. Right, get onto one. You're yellow. You're yellow. Yeah, that's right. Here. Or that one. I'm not red though mum. Here. Yeah. Well put it on there. Oi! You go up. Don't you? You go up . So you do Jonathan, I missed that, well done. Yeah. Ooh! You're at thirty eight already. Er, mummy I I so that means I've gotta go up. No, you don't go up. Cos you had five. One, one, two, three, four, five. Right. Throw your dice again. I've just . You wanna . If you get five do you throw the dice again cos you get five. No, you don't. Six,you throw the dice again. Six, you get two goes at it. Did I get a five? He didn't take it. you got on. That's it. So Well don't throw it miles away, just throw it into, onto the board. Three. Right. Which way did you, one is yours? One One, two two, three! Great. Ooh! I've best got to get one of tho with this ladder on. Right. Oh! And I onto Michael. Hope for a one eh? Come on. There. That Well was there. well you've got to throw it. This is a ! Oh! Ah! And you've got the one. Right, which way are you going? You're going that way Michael, put yours up that way one. So is that ? Yes. One, two, three. One. Move it one. Yes. Right. We're lucky this is big. Phew! Right Jonathan. Phew! That's it. Now if there's any messing around it's being ri put away. Ooh! Six. Six! Oh great! I'm going I get to go I get another go ! Right. Four. Where's yours? Move yours. Right. I get One, two another go, yeah ! I, who's helping Three. me? Four, five, six. Six, right. Have another go for the Michael! You're scrunching the board. Get off! But, I'm . No, you had help the last Six again ! Yeah. You can go and take another go. So this Have another go. move your six. I'm getting higher. Mum! He's kicking me! Oh! He didn't mean to. Concentrate. Phew! Move it that way Jonathan, six. One, two, three, four, five six. Right. Go again. If it's another six I think Two. it's a fix. Up up one, two. Two. Right. Now your turn. There's a one. Mummy! When you top at, stop at there you go down one six. Look! I didn't do a six. Mum, look. Look. You didn't do a six. Do you think that'll make a difference do you? Go on then, have another shot. Oh no. Two. Er One. no, one. Right. That way. Into the, onto the . One. Mummy, you're left behind! I'm not playing, you're playing. I'll play Oh. next time if there's if there's still time. Right Jonathan, your turn. One. go! Two. One two. I'm next to Michael! Two. Right. Michael. Want a go? I've got a six! Oh! Six! Six. Six! I take it you'll want another go? Right. Go and pick your dice up. I'll get it. Cos you'll need another go won't you? Yes. Yeah So I'll get Michael's when I bring my thing up. , one No. No, bring it up the way, up the way No I'm just I want Oh! Let him do it.. Oh golly! Look at this! Let me ! Oh stop it Michael! I'll put it away if you don't sta behave like that! No . Right. Yellow one up to the green. Ah! Er er er! I'll do it for him. Er! Er! Let him do it else there'll be there'll be eruptions. One. Come on Michael, hurry up if you want to do it. This one No, I've gotta throw the dice. No! You gotta move your thing first. No I'll do it You've Right. got to Mummy do it for you. Mm mm. One, two, three, four, five, six. Thirty six you're on, okay? Wow! Right, throw your dice again. Where's the dice? Let's hope you get another six, eh? Yeah, and then you'll get horrible. Oh! Wow! Is that six? I've got Yeah! Yeah! Yeah! Yeah ! That's great. Come and have There. another shot. Are you Ho . are you gonna move it this time? Right, move it this way. Here. Move it. No,. Move it to me. One two, three, four, five, six, you're on the red one now okay? Yeah. My turn! Oh another turn. He's got another turn to go. Oh! Go on. Four. Ah! Oh! Oh! Oh! Oh! Four is good. Four's just as good. Move it four places. Move it one, two, three Four! Oh oh! Four. Mm. You've gone down. Ah oh! You don't go down, you go back. Go down zzzzooooo! Down the snake. Look. Never mind. Never mind. Oh oh. You've had three, three goes instead of you've had lots of goes. whee whoo! Now I'm away. Oh oh . I'm not playing that, that Oh well done Jonathan! I'm not Look! Michael get off the board! Oh! Great! There. Was it there? There. It's not there. Right. Jo Michael! Do that again and the game is put away! Mummy, I got a six! Oh great! I'm the What? winner! Run all over the board like that. I sa A six. Move, just up to the green, that way. One, two, three, four, five, six. Right. Aye, get off the board though. And try not to scrunch up the board if you do it Mm. Five! Five. Right. Up One, two, three, four Alright. five. I go up the ladder! You go up a ladder! Wo woo! Mm. Put Mi Michael can we have two goes? I go Yeah. up a ladder ! You've had two goes. Your turn now Michael. Ah ah, ah ah . Give Michael the thingybob. Two dice. Two The dice. I got a six ! And I've not got any shoes on. Away from that from the board. Now sit down and throw your dice. I got oh ! Definitely a six. What an awful lot of sixes today. a six! Right. That means erm somebody's using funny dices. Which one's you? This one's yours. Have you done a six? Erm The red six? one, two, three, four, five, six. Go again. Five. One, two, three, four, five. And you've missed a snake One so you're okay. one, two, three, four, five. It was lucky. Right. Come on Johnny. Okay! One, a two. Whee! It's just a five, eh? Down! Right, so can you move to the side? Ah! What num highest number's you're on s s sixty seven, you've got sixty six that side, and sixty eight that side, which way should you go? That way. That's right. Well done. One, two, three Four. four, five Stop! Five. six. Five is what you got. Oh. If I remember rightly. Okay. Mummy, when do you stop at the hedge to go down? You do excuse you! What do you say? Pardon me. Here. That's good. Watch. Now I'm don't do a six. Look just there What? behind you. Come on then.. What? Right. So Och. Yeah, a six. Was that a proper er throw was it? Was more like a drop and come out your hand. Okay. Yours is the yellow one. Here we are. One, two, three, four, five, six. Go again. Ah! Four. One ! One! One! One! Okay. Jonathan. This time I hope six! Six again! Look! How many times do I have to tell you don't run over the board! You move all the Six! counters off it we don't know where you are. Want me to do it cos I'm closer? Yeah. One, two, three, four, five six. You're at the wrong end of the snake, you're okay. Go again. One. One! One. Erm I could, I could go there. Wasn't there Jonathan. What number was it on? It was on seventy. Gee! Cos you really drive your mummy to a limit. One. Okay. Give it to Michael to throw. I got two! Michael got two. Erm Er, I got a one, there's a one. Well mummy's jus just going to, cos look what happens when you go in one. Whoo! Right Great! up to there. Golly! Right. Right. Your turn Johnny. Okay. Well, try and do it without standing all over the board. That's a boy! One. One. Now wo is one gonna be good for you? I think it just might be. You've got seventy eight that way, and you've got eighty that way and you're on seventy nine, which way should you go? Well done. I climb up up the ladder! Climb up again. I win! Oh no! Jonathan's won! You've won! Yes! Right up to the hundred. Ha! Ye now it's Michael's Now you've gotta get one to get off the board is that right? Is that What? how daddy plays it? What? Gotta get one to go off gotta go off the board, you've gotta go and pick, one to get off. Okay. Here Jonathan. Right, do you want to see if you can catch up? Look at this he's got the Two. right round Two! Two! Two. Oh dear! Look! Oh dear! Oh dear! One One Two! two. He got a snake ! Whee ooh! Never mind when you get back to other ladder you might get back up again. Right Jonathan see if you can get one to get off. Okay. One. I just need one to get Right. If you go, get more than one you have to go back. Or for or forward. Right, throw it, I'll show you what I mean. Throw the dice. Right. Go back. I know! Throw the dice. You want as low a one as possible. You are after a one. Three. So this is what happens if you get three. One, two three. Oh! Oh! Okay? And if you get to there you're back down here again. No ! Okay? Oh no ! Right. Come on Johnny. Michael. I've got to get there. Ah! Ah! Right. It's your go, four. One, two, three, four, five, six. Okay. Throw again. And the same. colour, look! Yes. So it is. Three. I'll get it. Er, er Right, right, your throw Jonathan. Pick it up. Right, you're getting the left It's your turn. of me. I got one ! A two. Ooh! Jonathan. One One two ooh ooh ooh! Two. Well done! Well done. Well done, you're the winner. But it was a very good second. Very good second was Michael. Okay. Can you help with, this, I got a second . Do you want to have a go by yourselves? What's that, a different game? Put this one away, can you put it away Jonathan? Yeah, I'll put it away. Come on boys, show me how clever you are at tidying up. Mm. Can you let me do it, yeah I'll do it. I'll do it! Are you bored? No. Let's make this . Let's shut that door cos it's . I'll do it. Me ee! Mummy. Mummy when we take it out and can we play that other game? Yes. But you could I'm tidying, I'm tidying these things away. Well you put we one away first before you get another one out. You know the rules. No. I know the rules. Do you? Look at the mess of this house! Mummy, what's, what's a make? I don't know. Well it makes a big ? Like I've got one. What does r red and yellow make? Orange. You should know that. I know. You got that book. Do you know ? And what does what will green and red make? Er er, green. Ah ah, er yellow. Orange. No. Brown. That's re red and blue. There. There. No green and Dunno! yellow. Dunno. Right okay, it's numbers as well. Can you manage that Michael? Do you want use the ones that make the, use dominoes with pictures on it? Mm? Duck dominoes? Duck? You stay there, I'll go and get them for you? What's the duck? Duck dominoes, it's got pictures of ducks, do you remember? Yeah. Alright. Sit down and I'll bring it through. Erm Okay. Duck! I, mm, I know that game. Ducks. With . Watch. Mum, I want that other one, duck game. Well that's well let him play otherwise he'll have that funny turn. One, two, three, four! Da da da . No ! Mummy, we don't need these instructions we know what to do. Do you? Oh good. Do you want a two or a one? I'm taking this one out with the ducks. Mummy I'm taking these out. Michael, you've gotta get the last one there. Got the ducks. Mummy! I've gone and got them! I've got them! Look. Yes. Is it okay? Yeah. Okay. Great! And, and remember how many erm those. Yeah, got to have some of each. What? Are you gonna use the duck side or are you gonna use the picture sides? The duck side. I know. Can you use the duck side? Choose the duck side? This one. You're starting the This side? This side. Yes? Yes? Decided? No. Yes or no? No. You want to use the picture side or the duck side? Duck side. I'm using the duck side. Well you've both got to do the same if you're playing the same game Jonathan. Alright. We'll do the duck side. Oh great! Now we've got to get this one. I said, oh great. Then I'll have to do that one. I'll have to do this one. Right, well play hi his way for this, this time okay? Okay. And then he'll have a go if you're still interested. Oh and you Have you, what's that? Right, d'ya got, you know what you've got to do? Match up the pictures. If you put a pussycat down and a bear, say that was down there you've got to match up with that duck. Okay? A want to give them a shuffle for speed. Ours doesn't need a shuffle. Look at these Then you'll have to you have to do that lot there. Do you know how to shuffle? I know. I'll show mummy I want to Right shuffle. I'll shuffle them. Shuffle. Shuffle. It's hard. Shuffle them then . Not er I'll shuffle them all up. Give you some more to shuffle. That's facing the wrong way. Get off! You take one off oh! That's a good way to shuffle! Right. Shuffle them on the ground. Yeah. You Right. go all over. Okay. I think that was gonna say that was well shuffled. Right show the faces. I had them well shuffled mummy. Right. Can you count out, can you count Jonathan's enough to dish dish them out to him? Look at that . Deal them out. Deal them out. You can be the dealer. You've got to give the same numbers You've got two bears. got to give the same number to Jonathan as you give to yourself. Alright? You've got two bears. Ten? Give the same number to Jonathan to Michael as you give to yourself. Mummy I got two bears. Er, I'm five, I'm five so I've got to do five, okay? Jonathan. Not quite . Deal them out till you've finished, one to you, one to Michael, one to you, one to Michael, one to you, one to Michael and then you get Okay, I'll deal mummy. Okay. I'll show you how. One to you One to me to Mi I know. one to One to you. th one to me. But can you help me? one to mummy No, just Michael. You've got to help us. One to you one to Michael, one to you Mm. That's it. Okay. Then when you've done that if you've got a spare one put it down on the, on the ground. My, my duck haven't got to say this, that, that and that? Got to say that. Mm. Cos it's gotta be the same picture, you're gonna match it aren't you? I've got two of them! Yes, well that's the idea. Three. Pick it up Jonathan. You go again. And you've gotta count how many you got each. No, no, no, you just pushed yourself out. Now, count how many you got. We'll, we'll count ours Michael. One. To yourself. Two. You can count ours Jonathan. One, two, three, four, five, six oh itchy! Seven, eight, nine Look. ten, eleven Eleven. twelve, thirteen, fourteen. It's nine What's that, fourteen? Shh! ten eleven Eleven twelve thirteen fourteen. we both got fourteen, so there's no spare ones so we'll just have to er, right Jonathan, you put you put one down. Okay. Oh! Let's put that one Ducks. down. We'll put that one down will we? Yeah. Right you're to match it with a bear. Well mummy I've got to have two of them. Well that's cos it's going down. Okay? You have a look see if you've got a bear. Looked in your pile? Yeah. Got a bear down there. No. Just a bear on its own, not a bear and a welly. Shall we start er that again?. Mm. Ya. Okay? Alright? Don't Jonathan! No, that was yo I'll put this down. Have a look. Just goes, like that. Right. Makes a difference does it, on the other side? It's a double bear Michael . Doesn't matter which side you look. Okay Jonathan. Righto. Right. I've got a dog. I trust you not to cheat okay? A, a car! Right, you've got to look for a car, or a bear. If you've got the car you got to put it so you can Car. join it up with the way you got, that way. Make interesting shapes won't you? Mummy. Look, I got one of them now That, I'll show it to daddy when he comes in tonight. Right. Michael, your turn. What you looking for? Er What you looking for? A dog, or a bear. A dog or the bear. A dog or a bear. Oh yeah, I think you got just keep away from the from the centre. Doggy! Doggy! Yes. I got That's a good idea. If you got two of the same you should try and get rid of those. There. Ma Right. mummy can you help me cos I don't know what I'm doing. You're doing fine. Carry on the way you've been doing. A mummy I've got, I've got a car or a welly boot with a teddy in it. Well it's not either of those you're looking for. Have a look through your pile of cards see what you've got. Looking for Dog! Dog! Dog and a bear. Well, decide which end you're gonna put that one on. Er, I'll go for a dog. Now you're looking for a bear. Mummy, you're looking for I'll go for the bear. Mummy, you're looking a bear! A dog or a dog ! Okay! Don't shout, I'm not A dog deaf. or a dog. Dog or a dog. Michael's looking for that Michael look for a dog or a dog. Erm ah Look for a dog. I can't! Er find a dog! It's up there! Is that a dog there mummy ? a dog. I I got a dog. Put it around the dog. Or Dog. Do I have to do this mummy? Oh no, that's a . Try that door mummy. Oh yes. Mummy! The wheelbarrow or a dog ? Er it's a wheelbarrow and a dog. Look. A wheelbarrow or a dog? Right. Okay. I'm going for Who's turn is it? I'm going for a wheelbarrow. Right. It's Jonathan's turn. Where does that have to go, on top of the No! You can ju that doesn't if you want to! Mummy's See? dropped a drawing pin in the kitchen so keep your eyes open for it. Tee-hee! Cos you'll get a se se se sharp pain in the foot if you stand on that. Somewhere around. I'm good. Oh Michael! You're not anyway. You're not anyway! I, I yeah, I've got a dog. I've got a dog! It's a car, or a dog ! No, it's a I can't see cos Michael It's a car or a car mummy ? It's a car or a car. Don't shou I'm not deaf, don't shout! Er, I'll go have I got a car? I've found a car ! Mummy, I've got a car. I'll go th It's a scooter. My turn. It's not a car Jonathan No it's not yours. it's a scooter. I know, because Scooter! No, here's a bear. That's a bear's scooter. The bear's on a scooter. Right. Whose turn is it? Whose turn is it? It's Michael's turn now. Well look for a bear or a scooter. Bear or Urgh! Yuk! I just trod on your creature. Urgh! My creature . He didn't, he thought you No bears. I've got a bike, I've got a I don't like No, that won't do, but it was one of those there. I'll do it. Look. Mummy. Mummy ! It's a scooter or a sa bear again look. Right. I'll go for the have I scooter or a bear? This house is like a Jonathan! A scooter or a bike then. You'll have to start being a lot tidier. Mummy! I've found a scooter. I found one of those scooters. What's that? I just dunno where to start! But if you get one of them it looks bell to me. Mummy if you get one for me. No. But that's right. We could go down and then, that way, and then we'll all go to this way, and then join it up again. That's Snap you're thinking of Michael. Snap when you ! And er I want to play Snap! Well play this first. Keep one We're finished innit? And after doing that Yeah I and after that then we'll it, it's a, tied up cat or a bear. Tied up cat or a bear. Yeah. Mummy. I'll go for a tied up cat. If I've got one. I think I've got one. Let's see. I didn't do, you've got a bear. Look at that bear! Yes, you're right . No. I'll put You can it anywhere you want mate. Anywhere you want. Okay. So, so I think that, and that goes on here. Yeah. Three rows. Shall we do that? Doo doo da doo doo! Er! Er! Stop! You have to stop. Mummy! I'm going for now it's Michael's turn and he's not going for anything. I'm a tied up cat. A tied up can you do it for Michael. Mummy! That's the one I've been looking for! It's my one now cos I've got that. Now it's a car or a be Mummy, it's a car or a it's a Alright! welly with a teddy in it. Alright! Just, just do it, don't need to keep telling me. Your go. It's yours. Okay. Right. Michael's turn now. No it's a scooter! Oh no! And a car. A scooter and a car. A scooter and a car! No it isn't a scooter and a car! Cos I've got e mummy! It, mummy, it's a scooter and . Well just do it Jonathan. Just do it! Now it's your turn Michael. Ah! Is there any in there? Yeah. Give me it! I've got a daddy! Oh no! I've got a wheelbarrow. I've got Mm mm. I've got I've got that. Mummy, I've got that. I've got a tied up cat. Ah! No! No! Ah! A welly! A welly! A welly! Good. A welly! I don't want a Tied up cat. Aha! Mum, look. I've got a tied up cat here. Oh. Where's the you've got a chance to go of course. Oh yeah. Picture. Ah mama ma ma, mama mama ma ma ma ! Oh! You're messing them up. Oh! Shoo! A . These are sure good. Here. Look at this. I've got a oh! I need a doggy or a scooter. I need a I need a doggy. Good. Oh no! Mummy, I can't go! Mummy, I can't go! I can't go, mummy! Look . Jonathan stop I want both a doggy whingeing! or a scooter. Right! Michael have another go. You don't need to whine about it! I, I, yeah, I'll give you this dog. Well look here Oh thank you. Thank you Michael. Let's have a look, come on you got all these Michael gave me a dog. Well that isn't the idea . Well you usually miss a go you go that Michael has a go. If you can't go you miss your turn. Just the same as you with the other game. Right then, that's Michael's. Right. That's No. Michael's. Now can you go? Mummy I can't No. Well let's, let's see yours. I can't see. Er, Michael's No! turn to go. And, and you, do you want Well you I can't go. Can't go? So you miss another turn. Wait till Michael, have another go. Oh! Michael! You're clumsy aren't you? Yes, he's a clumsy boy all the time. Yeah, I'm clumsy. See Ah, ah ah! You're standing all over them! I know! Dear, oh dear! Dear dear! I've got to fix the ! Ah! You can't see them properly I'm sure you Right. see me. There, there. Right. It's your turn again. Okay. So, have a look for a scooter I'm not or er wellies. or some wellies. Right you've got double wellies there look. Ah yeah! You put double wellies I've got wellies as well have I? If you put wellies down you're blocking him for another turn aren't you? Tactics. Put it over there. Oh! Without standing all over the Now he'll have to wait again! Yes. You see, well this is what you call game tactics. You've gotta try and pu you Is this your go? Right Ooh, ooh ooh ooh! that means you haven't got, got one spot I'm so that you, so you can I've got the ! There's nobody here that's winning, come on. Your turn again because he can't go. Jonathan can't go. Welly. Right, get rid of your welly. Put your welly down. We that's this time you can I got a wheelbarrow! Oh good! I've got a double wheelbarrow! Right, see if you can go. Woo! Ooh! Me er this just get rid Eh! of it. So Michael Throw it. Oh no! Michael can go. Never mind Michael, let's just play, finish this game off. Ah! Oh! Oh! A whe wheelbarrow. I've got a double cat! Be careful if your It's a, look! Michael! Look there! I've got a Michael has to, Michael has to Jump. Mummy, look, Michael hasn't got double cat. Mummy! Michael hasn't got No a double but he's got a scooter. And a ball. A cat. And I was, and a wee wa wee car. I know, Michael you've got a scooter! Mm. Put it down then. I've got a scooter. Well a scooter's a scooter and that's it. You can't Right. do that! Michael! It's a bear or a car. Good boy for putting your hand up your mouth. That's great. No. We're all getting in the act here. Car! That's mine there. The creature jumped very high. Anyway, I think it's a draw cos Mi Jonathan, Michael had two shots . Oh! Eh, oh! A draw, I don't know how we managed that. No! I've the bear! Woo! Yeah. Woo! That was a close one wasn't it? Right, start that le no now we have we're gonna play with this runway it goes three, two It won't, it won't go up. Oh Mi well you've just broken it! No I haven't. No watch. Choo! Cos you don't play. What did yo Hello! It's Wendy. Oh hello! Hello. Hello Wendy! How you doing? Oh I'm just sitting here having had a long, well erm I I've just had a, a chat with Gillian who erm rang me up and we were on the phone for about half an hour I suppose, she's some lucky girl! She's just been er, come for erm,Stobo Castle for two or three days. Oh! Erm, it's an arm and a leg but I think she feels that she ritually deserves it er you know. Aha. I mean it costs about a hundred and twenty three pounds a day basic without the extras! Good grief! And she went on a party of three, no, no, she went with a party of four friends I think, there were five of them altogether and er she stayed for well er, three nights, four days, or four days, three nights I can't remember no, it must have been four days, four nights, three days. Anyway, and it was all such a, a resounding success so I, I was regaled with all the details of what she, and in what she had indulged and er, she said she went in more for the pi er she didn't go in for erm aromatherapy and the reflexology and the facials and the manicures and things, she went in for loads of bicycling and exercising and er and steam baths and things . Ah. Sounds wonderful! It sounded more like, she says to me I think you should save up Norma and Mm! you know, really go and do th have a pamper to the, and I said, oh yes Gillian I will, but the she said and go with Marion because you get a twenty five percent reduction if you share a room. I thought, well Mari would be the very last place that Marion and I would want to go to! And, and in fact, the very thought of spending nigh on five hundred pounds for erm er for Phworgh! you know, for a few days like that, I mean th it, it,I al almost shudder at the thought because there's so much else I would, you know, prefer to do with five hundred pounds. Mm. I know. Anyway, er so I thought for a , I've had a large of the press today which is, it's a very tense case indeed. Mm. Yes. Erm Mm. he arrived and had a spot of haggis, bought one left over. And, and, and You mean he, mean he scrounged lunch out of you too did he? Well I, we'd finished lunch and erm he, he, er I just said to him, what would you like? Would you like a pie or there's some haggis, neeps and potato left? And he said, ah! That sounds good. And erm course and he was , you know, even in the micro it went and Mm. there was really quite a lot left over. He, he said oh, you know, you, he really enjoyed it. Er, and I was glad he did You'd think I because you'd think I'd never fed him! Well, you wo certainly would have thought so today I must admit but erm he er, no he, he in fact did a couple of good works when he was here. Oh did he? Just, yeah well he, he put two springs into the top oven of my cooker and which erm, he, even he admits really hasn't made one Mhm. much difference to the door, but at least it doesn't flop down now and I don't have to stick a bit of cardboard in. But, you know, at least Mhm. it stays up, erm, but it's a bit dodgy. And the other thing is that it's erm er, er Jeremy had er er, inadvertently really, er I, I know that I could have crowned him when he did it, but he was getting er, taking the lamp from the bookcase erm, which is at the end of the bookcase through to his own room to use temporarily because in trying to get the shade off his, the old one there, he, he snapped the fitting, and why, when he did that, erm, he er, disconnected the phone and of course, wiped out all the memory you know, the numbers that that you put in! Ah no! Ya! Ya. And of course, er Chris was astonished when I told him, and he said but why, you know, mum it shouldn't do that, it should re be retained, you know Mhm. the entries so he said. That's right, it should. So anyway, I said, well it hasn't happened Chris because I, I tried to ring you, you know Mhm. er by pressing enter and one cos you're number one on the, on the, on the list. So Ooh! We're honoured ! Yes. Top of the list. And er Mhm. I said, I'm afraid erm, you know, that so he, he had to take some time, er, we ha we took some time to find the book of the words which Mhm. the erm eventually found the bookcase. I thought I'd put it there, looked through and couldn't find it, we were in every drawer in the blooming house! Anyway, I went back to the bookcase and Chris, in fact, also came and we looked for them, he said, here it is! Anyway, you know, I'd been er, it has been staring me in the face for so often. Er, so often That's always the case. Mm. Did you erm, get the phone fixed by the erm, G P O? Ma erm Chris said you were having problems. Yes. Yes. And did they have to come in and Erm sort the line? Was it the line? But that was erm, over a fortnight ago and they came and they er, rewired er, rewired the house, in fact Doctor Really? was here, right Mm. through the blooming utility room! And do you know when they came? No. They came a fortnight past Saturday afternoon when the match was on! Oh no! Ya. Ya. Well you could have left them to it. I know. But that was service, of course, you know. Mm mm. But I was showing Chris my erm, you know, telephone bill which I was so horrified to discover was something like a hundred and nine pounds! Wow! And, he said I don't how you do this, you know,yo I really don't know how you manage to run up a bill like that. And I said, well I don't know either, I think I ought to get some, er my, my bill, you know, detailed Mhm. er because I said I, I only phone Marion once a month and phone mum probably about once a fortnight, I don't like to leave it any longer and erm and I said I know I made a few extra calls over Christmas, but I said I really don't know. And I never phone unless I can erm, well you know if I can possibly avoid it I never phone at the most expensive time of day, I avoid mornings like the plague if I can possibly manage Mhm. so and erm, and still my total number of calls come to seventy odd pounds but then, over above that is rental and then VAT Mhm. and it comes to a hundred and nine pounds. Did you, with the new phone did you get rid of the, the other? I did, and they, oh Chris erm happened to notice that they have charged for a new phone that I haven't got. Ah! Ya. So it's just as well I let Chris have a look at that bill. Aha. Yeah. But it's Well it's only, I mean, it's, er they've What a cheek! said, they've said, removed one Statesman of a telephone and then provided one Statesman telephone which of course they Ha! haven't done. So, I'm going to phone up erm the billing place, as they call it, it's an O eight hundred number to Mhm. it's a free number, I shall phone them tomorrow and erm or Monday,th I mean, it's only a rental is,th th the rental itself is three eighty a quarter, it's not as if it's Mhm. an exorbitant or extortionate amount, but erm But,th anyway they'll probably charge you for putting it in as well. Erm, well I don't know Wendy, I'll have to go into that when I, I don't think they have, I don't know that they have charged me for, well they've certainly charged me for the new wiring. Well I think, I think you do have to pay for that, I know Really? mum, mum wanted one of these new, new sockets to put th erm th one that you can sort of clip out clip in Yes. and they sa said that they were they would charge for putting all the new wiring in, although you're still paying for th you know the Yes. That's right. having the, the blooming thing in the house and Yes. for the rental Yes. they st they'll, they charge you for that. Ya. I know. They're Mm. going charge eighty pound something a quarter, but that, that's the line which Chris said I Mhm. I didn't order, they always say Yeah. oh we'll charge you for that. Mm. Anyway I hear that you had little Jonathan John said. Yes, erm And he's going to be started now . Yes, they're just putting, well th th most erm useful erm conversation we had was with the, the ophthalmologist, she was, she was superb erm and advised us to get it done as soon as possible. I think so. Mm. I, I, I share that feeling Mhm. because I think that the the normally he, he has it done are greater. Of course, if they are usually, er, er you know, when I say they are usually they th the success rate is absolutely phenomenal! Mhm. It, it really is absolutely phenomenal! I was speaking There was a young girl had this done to greater success. Mhm. That's what he said, he's, had to be done before twelve, before the age of twelve. Yes. And I was speaking to Elaine today erm, over at Queensway, who, who I used to work with and erm, her erm nephew,ne niece Mm. she had the same thing done erm last year Mm. with a great success ra erm very successful. And I was tel telling, I didn't realize that erm not getting a fa erm a squint patched was erm as dangerous as it is, as, I was told by the ophthalamagist that she could, he could lose his eyesight if he hadn't erm didn't get his eye patched because they will stop using the eye, and the eyesight would go. And she said that erm Gordon, her husband erm he has no sight in one eye due to due to exactly the same thing not patching erm, an eye at the, the right age. Oh! Well. Erm, leaving it too long, and now he's as I say, last couple of years he's been to se to see why it is he's getting headaches and they say there's no sight in that eye at all. Aha. And, purely due to a slight squint Oh! as a, as a boy erm una un erm treated . and, causing problems now. Well you know, well you know the, the when I was a little girl, of course, I was totally prepared Yes. for this and I certainly You had the patch, you had the, glasses didn't you, with the, the patch over it? not that I perceived any longer if the hadn't gone. Mhm. Well that did the trick. That was all it needed. Erm, they do keep an eye Yes. just to make sure it doesn't go That's right. back. You see, I have very poor vision in my left eye, I mean, absolutely appalling Mm. vision so Well maybe that's been the cause. Yes. Exactly. And I mean really, really dreadful vision, and erm, er er of course, erm er er er, I just have compensated, you know, I really ought to wear specs all the time, and just, and just know that I just take specs off and on, off my nose as, as I, you know, need to er, as I require them. But erm, er, did yo did you, did you ever know that Alan also had an operation for a little No. squint there? No, so it must must run, er run in I would the family then. I di I did remind Chris and he just said, oh yes! I do remember now in the distant past. Mhm. I says, well your cousin Alistaire when he was a little boy before , he went back Mhm. Holland That doesn't surp but he surprise me but he's got erm, he ha he wears glasses doesn't he? And said And he, he doesn't at all now. No? No. He wore glasses until he was into his teens and then er, he took them off and he's er, he doesn't wear them at all, and his sight is absolutely perfect. Oh, well there you are. He has no problems at all now Mhm. Wendy, and, but he's certainly had an operation for the correction of a squint when he was about six. Mm. Can you hold on a second a Jonathan's got up . Do you wanna have a wee word with granny? Mm. Now, two seconds and you go to bed! I'm very angry with you getting back up again! Right, say hello. Hello granny. Hello my darling! Oh Jonathan, granny has missed you so much! I haven't Mhm. seen you for ages have I? No. We haven't seen each other for such a long time. You must No. come and see me soon. Aha. I'm just aching to see you! I'm longing Granny. Yes darling. Have you got a new television? I have, yes. Yes I have. It's a super new television! You must come and see me and see the television. Mm mm. You Aha. wanted to come today didn't you ? No, it really is, er it's brilliant Jonathan! Aha. It's wonderful! Erm, so, erm, so I'll see you soon, and you're going up to bed now I hear aren't you? Yeah. Yes. And erm, you're, you're, you're keeping well are you? Aha. You're much, much better? Aha. And Michael too? Well, I'll see you soon darling. Yes right. Will you come and see me soon? Yes. Yes. You must come and stay with me again some night, one night. Yes. That would Alright? be nice wouldn't it? So Yeah. get off to bed then. Aha. Ni-night my darling. Off to bed. Say goodnight granny. Night-night granny . Ni-night. Ni-night my sweetie. Right, up the stairs now. I'm just watching Go on. these. Two seconds. Up the stairs now! Now, there's none of this nonsense! Go on, back to bed please. Shut the door. Mm mm, no. He can't bear to think he's missing out on anything . Yeah, but he probably heard you phone me. Yes. He, they were late to bed I'd had them erm round at the shops and then er er Queensway, then the shopping centre to pick up a card for for Chris. Hadn't got a card for him . Erm, and then Marie's, to pick up, she gets me milk erm er fo sick of running out of milk and she goes every, twice a week to, to get er, main shopping and just milk on Friday, and she said oh I can get you milk so Oh good. she gets me one of these big six ca erm pinters. Yes. Six er, litres. Yes. And that, and that keeps me going all week so I had to go and pick that up and of course we we went in, then we were late. Yeah. Yeah. Erm, it, it fits into the, the fridge door, no problem. Oh it does? Mhm. Oh right. Ya. They're, they're designed to you know, fit in the door. Yes. Yes. Oh that's good. Cos they are splendid! You know, I've had one or, or two of those from time to time. They're, they're great. Every, we go through so much milk now with erm, having breakfast cereals and Yes. and all sorts, erm and I would it's lovely having the milk I hate ma running out. Oh I hate running out of milk! I'd rather run out of anything than milk That's right you ca that I know. you feel you can Yes. you can cook up anything if you've got milk o That's right. with milk, but Yes. erm Oh isn't that good! That's marvellous that, that So arrangement. Erm, Wendy, erm Mhm. er are you going erm, are you going out tomorrow night? We're haven't decided where, but erm Chris wants to go to the cinema. Yes, and he did say when he phoned me a night or two ago that you might Mhm. thought you might go to the He was hoping Star Trek erm Six would be on, but erm so far i we've it hasn't been advertised erm, and er, it's been on and premiered in erm in London, and he hoped it would come out here erm this week, but erm Well what about J F K, I mean, that looks Well we wanted to see that but erm, it's three and half hours, three plus hours which erm we wanted to we wanted to go for a wee meal erm afterwards and it meant er made an awfully late night with the, having the baby-sitter, got Christine next door coming in to baby-sit. Oh yes. Erm, and it's quite an early start so it's, it just makes it such a late night to for eating by the time you've come out the cinema it's erm Well, yes it so late. does dear. Yes it does, it certainly does. By the time you get out and Mhm. I mean, even if you go for a, a Chinky or an Indian it's Yeah. still very late. I think we've decided we, we will, we will go to the cinema and probably see J F K, er and just have a snack in er, and go save the meal up and have er, that later in the month. Yes. And enjoy Yes. it. Chris is desperate to go back to the Hargate, but erm Is he? Yes. His passion for the Hargate. He's,yo I was saying you went there and you weren't impressed last time. No I wasn't. It's changed hands. No I wasn't, no I wasn't in the least bit impressed with it. I wouldn't, I wouldn't go back. Erm Really? As bad as that? No. And erm, they were all complaining. Mm. Erm, I er no I, I was desperately disappointed when I Oh. was last there which was erm with What? Dorothy. Haven't been er, well it's over a year ago now when we were there. Mm. I'd, remember you saying that and Yeah. it could have been just because it's, just had just newly changed hands and it might have Well obviously it might have been improved. but I mean er ghastly. I mean, really, really ghastly! It's erm Mm. the worst meal I think, er, I went with Dorothy , it was the worst meal out, we both said that, that either of us had ever had ever had anywhere Really? Oh! it was such a terrible Is it, it's the same style, it's still open sandwiches Yes. Yes. and er And erm you know the erm er, I, I don't know whether it had any adjustment changes or what, but Mhm. but everything about it was just shocking! Mm. That would be awful to go cos he's, he's so passionate about it. Ha the Hargate Yes. to, to go in and be erm Well that's it. Well he, he'd Yes. you know. Yes. Alistaire, Alistaire's favourite place Mm. and I don't think well It's a shame to spoil it and go and have a rotten meal there. Yes. Yes. Mm. Yes. Especially you That's what made pay for it. me feel so bad about it Wendy, because I thought, everything that ever meant anything to me Mhm. seems to be disintegrated round about me, even to the blooming Hargate! You know, that I Mm. thought I could always depend on. But er, and also, you know the association with Alistaire's, the things that Alistaire liked, that was Mhm. I think the thing that erm that er, made me feel so, so utterly and profoundly miserable about that evening. Ah! However, erm there it is. And I wouldn't say, I thought your phone might have been Graham because er I was just going to ask Not a wo any word? Not a word No? Wendy! Not a word. Not a cheep. And I, it's now ten days, they're onto some scam, and erm, I've, I had a letter from Marion erm, course, well to say they were no wiser and er she sent me some of the Mhm. photographs, she sent me three lovely photographs taken in erm i in St Helens Road the day of her party on the Sunday before Christmas and they were so good I've ha I've, I've got, rushed out and got little frames for them. Oh good. Yes. Oh, the th the three, there's my three brothers and their spouses and erm one of erm of the nephew and nieces, erm, Robert and Rachel at the end, and Carolyn and Andy Aha. in another one. So Good. there we are. Erm,wha are you erm erm er any further news from Australia? Erm no, none Yes. none erm, recently, just saying tha exact same that erm George is s s still very very weak. Yes. Erm not up to visitors,ma erm,sh she has limited the times she's visited because she's got the children, and he's just really not able to stand the children No. around him. Oh yes. His tolerances level is is erm non existent. Oh! You know the erm Just a matter of time. I know. This is it Mm. you can't stand any noise Noise and the at all. or the,th especially when the they're children. So erm mum and dad has been writing and erm I think they phoned Yes. erm but ea she wouldn't bring him over to the phone, she said oh he's too weak to come to the phone. Erm which I think was, disappointed dad because erm I think he would like to have had a word with him. Yes. I'm sure. But erm Yes, I'm sure. but they've, they've written anyway and so it's very difficult to, to think of things to say and erm You don't know what to say No. when do you when they are . You're at a loss totally. One is at a total loss for words to express adequately how one really feels inside, you know. It is erm, Well so awful! Anyway, won't get morbid about it, there's erm No. How did you get on at erm at Cramond? You were going down to Jean and Ronald's? Erm oh no I didn't go to Cramond darling! Erm O I went with Jean to the theatre. Oh! That's right. I di and then of course, the previous erm, er Monday I erm, I was at oh, the seventieth birthday party, but I think I told you about that didn't I? Erm yes. Over at Gillian's. That's right. Yes. Well it was Gillian and, and erm and Ronald's sister. Erm and Oh. then er a week ago last night erm Jean and I went to the Lyceum together to see Arsenic and Old Lace. How did that go? It was lovely! I enjoyed it enormously! Jean did. And I love, I love that film and they, they show it quite regularly on the T V. Yes. It's a Yes but Alistaire saw the super film. film, it was great. Mm. Yes, it was a it was a fun evening, it Di really was. I Did it compare to the, the film? Yes. Oh yes. It was a ve the the Lyceum Theatre Company and it was splendidly cast! It was, it was really refreshing and su I love live theatre, of course, I really ought to go more often. Mm. You should. So erm, in fact, I would have loved to have taken Jonathan to the pantomime erm, it's on until er Is it still on? the Is it still on? Yes. Mm! Good grief. It's on till the end of the month. Erm the What, what's on this year? I'd heard nothing Aladdin. about it at all. Er, it's Aladdin. Aladdin. Yes. And who's in that? Oh! Erm, erm er, what do you call erm, Jack and erm and er, what do you call, erm er who's the woman? And erm, Russell 's new wife. Anyway, it's a superb cast! Apparently Mhm. it's really brilliant! Absolutely brilliant! And, but i i he, next year when they're both a year older, you know Mm. I think they may appreciate it more erm I think it would erm I don't think their concentration span No. would, would last out Yes, well for apparently especially not Michael's. I think they would Mm. er, but little erm, I think by next year, you see, Jonathan er will be six, and, and, and Michael will be Mhm. coming up I think to five so I think definitely next year. Yes. Definitely. We should But I all, all go. but I did feel, certainly Mm. yes, we'll all go. Make his a make it an outing. That's right. Oh yes. And it's,i it doesn't erm seems strange going a sa so wa far away from Christmas, and er think of panto as, seems Yes. weird. Well it finishes at the end of this month. Gosh! I didn't realize it went into February. Yes. Oh yes, it does. It goes, they, they, er it has Mhm. I think it has about another fortnight to run Wendy. Gosh! Ya. I think so. Erm so, there we are. Erm, you're, so you're not working this weekend, it's the next weekend you're working? No, I swapped erm, I should be working this weekend but Yes. erm, I swapped with erm Bernie. Ah! Erm and it's worked out marvellously. Aha. Er,unin unintentionally er, because I have my days off Thursday, Friday next week Yes. which are the sa same days as the school's off for their Oh! erm, half term. Oh good! And I've got this weekend off, not having to work when erm it's Chris's birthday so Yes. it's Yes. it's worked ou out well for both of us. She took erm stupidly erm, she says herself she booked erm the Friday and erm, the Monday off Aha. to make it a long weeke because of the schools being off Yes. erm to make the most of the holiday , and then found she was working in the sh in the middle. Ah! So erm it doesn't bother wi the weekend's better for me cos Chris is here to cover and then I'll have Yes. That's right. er, the boys off. So, er so you work tomorrow day, so you worked Wednesday and Thursday when you didn't expect to be, but you're off now? Yes. I see. Yes. Yes. That's right. It's funny how your system, I, I was it got to Thursday, I thought and my system sort of er was telling me, oh I shouldn't be here, I'm getting fed Yes. up wi fed up with this! Yes. Erm Yes. That's right. So, so used to your sort of third week having a day off in the week. Yes. But when it got to lunchtime today it's been quite . Yes. It's been very busy, got a lot of people off sick with erm, flu. Lot of flu going around erm it's quite short- staffed so busy, busy! And are, you're all very much better now aren't you? Touch wood Yes. we are on the mend. It's er well it's a relief to feel well just erm . They've both got runny, runny noses but Yes. erm that's the time of the year, yeah. I don't think they'll be free of that until until the summer. How about your tooth, did you get erm Oh that's a lot er better sorted out? thank you. Yes, that's much better. I have to go back to the dentist next week but er erm er, in fact, it's not this coming it's the week after, it's a week on Monday I have to go, that's right. Erm, so erm erm and that is the day that erm er both mum and Marion are due to fly off to Oz. Mhm. I take it she won't be a she won't get anything done before she goes now? Well she couldn't could she? No, there's no time. I er, I know, I, well I wrote to Marion and said er, I really think that erm if they do find something slightly amiss now erm the a is out of the question. I said Mhm. he's got to take consi into consideration the amount of recovery time that is required, and especially when they're you know, interfering with the waterworks of somebody Mhm. that age! That's right. And embarking on such a long trip. So, I think they'll probably say, oh just go and enjoy your holiday See you when you come back. and we'll deal with you Mm. when er when we come back. Because she, you know hi she took that intensive course antibiotics i which was obviously contributing er to her being so unwell and, and had discomfort too, she's been a lot better. Well maybe it's just been a deep, a deep-rooted infection. Yes, and she's, she's definitely had Chronic infection. she's definitely had a chronic urinary infection. There's no doubt whatsoever about that. But I don't think it's the whole story Wendy. I, I, think that there is you know, something er ba er mechanically amiss as well, but er you see, you know, she, she says that she's, she's certainly been able to visit, which is mum's favourite expression, a lot better Mhm. and also, erm, she says I've, I haven't got this awful sort of very sore, blown-out feeling, you know, and, and, and that has left her, so you see, it,i I mean God knows how long she's had this chronic infection! . Well I'm gla glad she's getting something done about it now cos you and she'd just been left,sh er, hadn't been persuaded she'd have just let it go on and on and on wouldn't If the she? if arrangements hadn't been made for her to go to Australia might be, she hasn't been may have you know, she still hadn't been to the doctors Mhm. and because, it's only this, it's only me, it's only me that, me that tricked her. Was it? . Oh yes. I thought you'd managed to talk her into it. Oh no, no, no. She's already Mhm. you're coming along to the doctors. I doubt if she'd been, er would be have been there yet. Anyway Oh well erm and she's getting something done now. I won't keep you, I Mhm. er, I, er I thought you might be watching Love Hurts, you're not following it? Erm, I Do you? I, I have actually, erm no I'd forgotten it was on. Yes, it's very good isn't I it? well I, I'm not watching it but Gillian said, well I must go now Mhm. because I'm going to watch Love Hurts. But it was also about erm er trying to get some . Mhm. So we've arranged to meet, we're going to meet in Oh! in , in February. She wanted me to come er, to meet her next week but really, what with my Chris has come and then, and then Mhm. Anne is probably coming to us still on Is she? day, erm, you Great. know and er Wonderful! we a we are going, we are going out for a meal on Saturday night i er, in, with or without, we're going out, I've er we want to go to the when we went with . Oh! Erm, er the trouble is Mhm. at the expense of the company they said you know, he, he says that er he says Martin had said to him, you know, you should take your sister out from time to time, there's no reason why, you know, we we couldn't Mhm. put it down to expenses and we'll cover it. Quite right too! And so er This, and you put him up every time he comes up. That's right. And they're not Oh yes. forking out for any That's right. expenditure. This is it. So er, so er Alan is Good I'm glad. hi er he's got to go, he's got his annual medical, it's a very high-powered erm thing in Dundee on Tuesday, so Anne said that she would like to come up with him, potter about Dundee while he's having his medical then they will come here on Tuesday evening, or late Tuesday afternoon, and we go out for a meal, and then of course, she'll be with me all day on Thursday because he goes back up to Dundee to his managers' meeting, you see. Aha. That's the way it's worked out. Oh well, you go down town or something with her? So er Well, I probably, I probably will. But it just means that he comes up with my car. Oh! Just ge go anywhere sh I'm sure she'd entertain herself at the shops, she'd be quite happy to Oh yes, but wander round the shops and if, now he's gone potter. I have to you know, and, and besides, when I come out of there I look like as if I've been . So, anyway So what! So what! I think I'll just, no, no, no, no, no, I have to concentrate on her, it's not that I see all that much of her. Er if she comes, that's right Mhm. I mean she might suddenly find that she can't get the time off the hotel, or she changes her mind, I don't know. Mhm. Erm so, so, there it is. And erm then a I, Gillian couldn't see me on Thursday, and then Friday William is coming up for half term, so er Actually, he must be getting on ja William, he must, how old is he now? William he was born in seventy ee ee ee ee ee six yes. He will be erm erm yes he was born the year before I had my hysterectomy he was bor yes, but do you know he'll Yes. be he'll be sixteen this year. Good grief! Six he'll be sixteen in September. And I mm. fifteen, he's fifteen past this September. God! Now I do feel old. I have I know. I remember him I know. three years old, two and a half, three, in the su in the pool paddling, in the Yes. pool at erm I know. Portugal. Yes, that's right. Little So, the 's little mite. are back in this country, but Louisa has gone off and is erm, got a job with C B S, she's driving at the Olympic Games. Is she? And Sebby's gone off skiing somewhere and er Jamey's in London and er What's Jamey doing? Well he was at, he's at Liverpool University! Is he? Or he was. Yes. Whether, erm, I suppose he's still there. And William is erm at erm Glenarmanton. Ah. Is he getting on any better at school? Erm, he was having wasn't he? Well I don't, oh yeah, I didn't ask you know. Mm. Just in case. Knowing William I should think there are innumerable problems. Mm. Erm, yes. But er, like you, I could hardly believe he's in his sixteenth Mm mm. year. Very, very Amazing isn't it? Yes. It certainly, it's certainly do you know that erm, er Rachel is thirty two on er Yeah? on Tuesday? Good grief! Yeah. She's exactly two Well that's a years older than er er younger than Younger than than than Chris, that's right. There's days between them isn't there? Yeah. That's Erm right. two years, and days. The eleventh she is. Mm. So erm What's Gillian doing now then? Oh she's erm, she's not doing anything at the moment because erm Is the tourist, the business erm Er totally out the window? Yeah, but she's not working at the moment. Er, she says that she's er, there's absolutely nothing doing just at the moment, erm, but she says that she never knows the time when she will be called upon to you know, be asked to do a trip, but Mhm. really right in the middle of winter and there's really nothing much doing. So, she is resting, albeit Resting. unwillingly at the moment. Mm. Has she still got that boyfriend. Yo oh yes. Yes. Yes. Chub chubby. Yes, that's right. Yes, that's right. And, have you heard from the erm cousins and er Erm, they're going off they're, it's, probably away this, this weekend, erm Sheila's but they're all going erm Right. oh was it this when is it they're going? It's the Eas erm the half term break Aha. I think. Erm, they're going down to Bicknoller erm, to stay with her mum. Where? They're staying Erm where? They're going down to Somerset Yes. to stay with erm Sheila's mum. Yes. And, to let, basically, to let nanny see erm Alex. Alex because she hasn't wa ma although mother's been up erm, nanny always gets shot off to the erm the home and she hasn't actually seen her. Well now I can tell you, erm, I actually wanted to erm and, and, and, and really as, as, as erm perhaps a bit of an old softy but Mhm. I really thought that I would have asked Chris if he is pay for his erm Society here in . Mm mm. And er for his birthday. That would be lovely! So I had no idea how much it was but I thought Mhm. well I'm not gonna ask Chris cos I'll just write a cheque to Society. Aha. So I thought well there's only,th th the, the easiest way of finding out is to ring Keith. Mhm. They're away. No. No answer. No, no. So I rang, I rang him last night and, they're not away and they've erm he was able to tell me that it was exactly a hundred pounds. Gosh! That's gone up then. It's gone up, yeah. So,th the poor, poor Keith has been terribly, terribly poorly all week! He's been Has he? off work. Yeah. Oh! And, he said That's sudden. erm, I think really that he's finding erm, er the, the pressure of, of erm, of, of the , I mean, bloody kids are almost unendurable! And, you know, he's been very wheezy and pro and, and, and er, and has a, er,ha has been suffering some sort fluey cold. And Karen last weekend, after you were sitting for them suddenly took ill on the Saturday I think, and Sheila wasn't in any great shape, so he went back home er, from the office an over his lunch hour to see if he could just go and lend a hand,ge generally help out over his lunch hour. Mhm. And he said he was alright over you know, that period and he said he got back to office, then two hours later he said he was in, in such great pain! Oh! And he said, I suddenly felt so ill, you know, and I was shaking, and, and, and, and, and obviously started running a temperature and, and my, my, er and, and shivering and whatever. Mhm. And he said, it's most unlike me, as you probably know, but he said I couldn't tell you the last time I had time off work, but he said, I haven't been into the office since th cos I've been feeling really bad! Yeah. That's jus that's the classic one that's going around Aha. sort of fluey, fluey-like symptoms That's right. And guess, and guess who erm has been helping out? Oh. Evelyn of course. Yes! And guess, who Mhm. in actual fact, because they thought she'd be better out of the way, had the baby last night? That doesn't surprise me in the slightest. But when he said, we thought it would be a good idea, we took a Ali erm, erm mum took Alex over to Craigmiller Park, and we thought it would be a good idea if she just stayed there overnight because if she wa if she's escaped it by, you know, tomorrow then she should really you know, be safe and, and Mhm. a voice came er, from the, the back of beyond and Keith said, oh he said Sheila has just reminded me to tell you that it was my idea. In other words, in other words, she wasn't going to do th have Norma think that er Aha. that she had th but erm, they, I don't know wha I really, honestly don't know er what they would do about, she would do about Evelyn. Ah,oh . I don't know either. Se they fall back on her so, so often Yes. She caved in, in, she caved in she can't face up to er, to anything very much really. No. She's always been like that though. Ya. Yeah. And, gonna, she's gonna carry on being like that while, while Evelyn's there to Yeah. pick up That's right. as she drops That's right. everything her, coming That's right. behind and pick it all up That's right. and cope. That's right. So, I thought I would let you know, I didn't tell Chris this Mm mm. because obviously and this time, because Chris turned up unexpectedly and, I had his card, and everything Oh! all ready, and stamped Oh! and when I heard er th from him that he's going to er pick up somebody somewhere, and pick up somebody somewhere else and go to the to a Mhm. football match tomorrow I thought, well I'm not posting his blooming cards, I'm, I'll just hand them to him and if at sometime you're stuck for a I'll ste steam them off ! Yes. Too right to. I'll make use of them. Yes ! So I just kept them, but I thought Good for you. imagine! And I'd only done them ten minutes before Oh! he appeared. Oh! So you could steam them off and slap them out again. No, no, no. I'm not really good at that. Leave that to me. I er, I, you can do that, I, I, I'm, I, I thought, I thought of that, well really, you know, erm well isn't it, isn't it just me? So erm It is. anyway, listen my darling Mm mm. we've gone on talking so long Yes. and I'll see you Must go. soon I hope. Yes, erm I th are you doing anything Sunday? No. Might pop in on Sunday with the, with the boys if Yes. if that suits you? Yes. Yes. Cos erm they were asking today if they could come and see granny's new T V and Yes. Yes, er well a can we go and see granny? you know But it was so late on. Yes. Well you know Wendy erm, you could come and, and er have a spot of lunch if you'd like? I mean, you're always so welcome to come and have anything. Er, you only just have to say, well you know, would it suit you for me to come in Mhm. and, you know Well we will. you know, perfectly well the answer's going to be be yes more times than it's going to be no I'm not going to be around. Erm It's Jonathan beckowing . Erm, well we'll come in, in the af after lunch. Erm Right. pop in after lunch er th with the Alright. boys because they haven't se they haven't seen you for ages. Yes. And erm Oh I would love they're as they're asking Yes I know, I would so love that! And I'm I'm when I wrote to Marion I said, er I'm ge I am getting the most terrible withdrawal symptoms! I haven't seen two sweeties for er, well I haven't seen Jonathan since the the third of Ja erm January is it, or the second of January or whatever and er Is it? As long as that? Yeah. And er, well I haven't seen you ooh That's right. Well I have been I've been in bed half the time with Oh have you? with erm Yes. I know. When I say stupid bugs! when I say that, of course, I mean Mm mm. I mean, I don't mean, you know Mm. I know how, I know how you have been erm Frus frustration with one, one thing after the other. Yes. Yes. I know. But, touch wood, I think that's all out the way. But Yes. erm well erm, I know and the last thing I wanted to do was give, give erm give you anything because Well, er, yes. And also, Wendy, erm er, the other thing is that I really wasn't a hundred percent in health. No you weren't were you? on er er, er and had erm I was on an antibiotic for a, week or so. However, I look forward to seeing you You survived. so, very Mhm. very, very, very much on er Right, we'll pop Sunday! in, we'll pop in on Sunday. Yes. Erm, in the afternoon. Ooh! In the afternoon with erm the wee ones. Yes. Erm And erm cos I know you've got this drag of er, of a, of a duty on Sunday night but Yes. Yes. Still, still got that . Yes. So you won't want to be er er too late in getting er, away, erm, because er you have to get back and er get organized for that, erm anyway Yes. The se the se the psych up, or the wind up, or the wind down whichever . That's right. Whichever. Erm, well we won't talk about that now, we won't talk about Sunday night, but I, you come, you come and see me on Sunday and Right er will do. I'll, I'll really look forward to that so much. We might, if i if it's a nice day we might possibly have a little walk out somewhere or run out somewhere, or something Good idea. Yes. you see, and then boys can have Mhm. tea erm before they go home. Yes. We'll think of somewhere to to ga spend the afternoon. Yes, well, I think Hopefully, hopefully a nice day. er, we'll, we'll play it by ear, it'll Mhm. all depend on the day, you know, because the weather's been superb hasn't it really? It's been glo glorious one day, and then, and then sort of a bit cold really dodgy the next. But erm Yes. Yes. hopefully, hopefully it'll be, it'll be a nice sunny day. Yes. Well, erm, I know the forecast isn't quite so brilliant as it has been, I think but Oh. er anyway Whee! Yeah. regardless of the weather, it doesn't matter, we'll see you Mm mm. on, on, on Sunday and erm and er er, enjoy tomorrow with Chris, er, what when you see him. Eventually when I see him, when I, catch up with him! Yes. Yes. Alright dear. There we are. Will do. Thank you for ringing. Okay my love. Erm Take care. Yes. I'll see you Yes. see you on Sunday. Yes. Bye-bye now. Okay. Go and have an early night. Oh well if I could! I got loads to do. Loads! Have you? Mhm. What ? Ah tidy up this house, it's an absolute Is it a tip? tip, absolute tip. Really? Yeah. A bomb hit us in the night, d'ya not know that? That's what it looks like! Oh can't you So can't you leave some of it until tomorrow morning? Or is it better when you having a quiet It's best, I can't do anything with this pair around. No. They're I know. I know. They're erm,hope hopeless! Well I mustn't keep you talking because the more I, the more I keep you talking the less time you have to do it. Okay. Righto! Bye-bye! Sleep tight. All my love. Bye-bye. Bye. Bye-bye . Right. Bed! Come on. I can't sleep. Well you can't try to sleep when you're not in bed can you? Well, I was trying to sleep when I was in bed bed. Do you know what time it is Jonathan? Do you know what time it is? No. You've never been up this late I don't think. Come on. Except when we travel overnight, even then you were sleeping. On holiday. Come on! Under the covers. You are shattered! Aren't you? Hate to think you're missing out on anything. Get your legs down. Slither down or did you? That was funny. Unlike that here. Say ni-night. Night-night mummy. Shut your eyes. Mummy, can you put that there. Aha. Shh shh shh. There. Some stickiness in here. What's that? I dunno. Put it away. Ow! Okay. Right. Can't sleep? Can't, I can't sleep. So the cat was trapped in here. What? The cat was in here. Mm mm. Pussycat. D'ya have a good good da Didn't you see him? Did you have a good day at school. Mhm. Mhm. What did you do today? I did a painting. Just a painting. Did you? Yes. Eh! Don't scratch the furniture. How d'ya get on at the dentist? Fine. Mm. You were a big brave boy weren't you? Mm. And I got a badge. You got a Er badge did you? Mummy wa Is that for being good or is that for for having good clean teeth? Cos I was good. Cos you were good. And you sat a in the, the big chair. Yes. What happened in the big chair? We the lady took the one of the things off. Did she? Did it go back? Yes. Did it go up and down? No? Just back? Back. The, the pillow went back. Mhm. And , and so did the feet go back. When went up, they would go up wouldn't they? The top would go back. Er, and I slided a wee bit. Slid. Slid. Mm. Did she look in your mouth? Aha. What did she say? With the torch up there. Mm mm. What did she say? She said, I want to keep those teeth. Did she? And you can have mine. And hers come out did they? Were Yeah. they in a jar? Were they the ones you can put in a jar? Like granddad's. What? Well, did her teeth come out? Like granddad's. Yeah. Nah. I think she'll be too young for that. Is it a young lady or an old lady? A young lady. Oops! I hang on a second whilst I get the phone. This Er that, that one! , George died yesterday afternoon. Ah! So Oh I'm sorry to hear that. Aha. So Morag when she came down, came down for the whole week. Ah! So Aha. so she was there. Oh well it's it's been So yeah. quite quick then just, towards the end? Well I think for him he was very, very . Mm. Er, you know but I, she, when I was last week at Sheila's she said he he her, you know, sign of Mum! taking it much further you Mum! see because of the there, I suppose the food with the, some of it you know the tumour was stopping the food getting down, so I suppose you just live on what you've got in your body and Mhm. which is only about a fortnight isn't it? Yeah, food, food-wise. As long as the fluids are going in but erm Well that's right, yeah. And once the, once the Yeah. cancer takes over it's it's you know, it's it's usually quite quick. Yeah. So anyway, it's gonna be Ah! a relief for him. Mm. And for Gillian It's too. Yeah, I know, she's had a hell of a well for the last two or three years. Mm. But er we said, oh you've done very well Gillian and she said to, to your father, she said oh it's been a pleasure to do it. Aha. Well ! Shame. So, anyway erm I phoned What Sheila up Mhm. and then, and got the baby-sitter ! Ah no! And so erm I mean, she knows but, I was just wanting to, to start flowers but Yeah. Gillian said she didn't want flowers, she didn't want to, to, they thought they were a waste of money and er she said, needed, she'd wanted to send any, if you wanted to send any just to send it to, to nursing. Aha. Donation to the nursing something like that, but she's you know, dead against she didn't like funerals anyway. He only wants the family there. Aha. He doesn't want the fuss the golf club and everybody there sort of thing, very, very, quiet. She hadn't de decided yet to what day, because it's a weekend. Oh! But er, I think , Gillian's brother knows a a friend who's, works in the crematorium , down at er Mornington, so I suppose they'll be Mm mm. getting in touch with him, but nothing mu much they can do, you know at a weekend. Mhm. So, anyway that's a happy relief, but sad but Wait till, wait till Monday. there we are, at least we can see him when he sort of reads his will. That's right. That's the same I mean sort of Just as, er just as well you didn't go out because erm you could have been half way out there in the plane or whate when erm Yes. Yes. when he'd, he'd popped popped Yeah. away. But, anyway And be better remember him the way he was, I think. Yes. Er, I suppose Anyway, are you all fixed up is dad, dad upset? for tonight? Erm sort of! Sort of. I've got the baby-sitter coming in erm coming in quite early erm quarter to seven and then Aha. we're going to either go for a me meal first or go for the ci the cinema and then for meal. Aha. But we're just gonna decide tonight Aha. where we're gonna go. Aha. So So enjoy yourself. Mm. Had Norma on the phone, she was asking after George yesterday. Oh! Erm She got her waterworks done? Yo you mean granny or the, or the gas ? We well how's granny? Erm She must be getting ready to go. She's heard nothing from the, the hospital they after the tests. She's had Done? she's had nothing so she hasn't had anything done. Good God! So she's gonna be going off to, to Australia erm, as before with no Yeah. no erm you know, improvement on her waterworks. So it's not long now as you say. It's next week No. isn't it? Sixteenth isn't it? Aha. That's right. So she I think she's erm, she wouldn't want it done just a few days before anyway she'd have to Oh yes. she'd have to recover I thought at the time sh er she was leaving it pretty late. Mhm. Very late. Well I did, I did wonder, especially with erm you know, waiting lists and they don't get in that quickly. And Norma, of all people, should know that. That erm Well, well, it's, erm Even i even if your priority was erm, you know, when you've like dad with his prostate that erm Well he was a blocked off, he had to he was, couldn't pass anything and then, I mean, he was just mo more or less slipped in, but I think Mhm. you know, if if he'd been left to to probably some other doctor he probably would have said, oh you know, you can just have a catheter or something. Cos I mean, I remember saying that, they, he knew somebody that had a catheter for two years! That's right. That's right. It's just luck if you can get, get erm Yeah. a, a gap on the Louis has had just had his call for his hernia, but he's gotta ring up on Tuesday to see if there's a bed available. So, he's having the hernia. Who's that, Louis? Yeah. Oh! So No you see, he, he he can he cancelled cos his name came up and then he cancelled and he never heard anything and went a bit er we told him about Doreen, he said, oh I better go down and see what's happened er he went down and then about three minutes later he got this erm card yes er, this week to say that come in, but, before you come in ring to see if there's a bed. Mhm. So he's erm Especially of the winter they wha they have what they have erm, they call yellow alert Yes. and red alert where there's, if there's lots of people with erm pneumonia, and Yeah. bronchitis and medical problems Yeah I know. Ya. they, they block off the surgical beds, they get erm priority I, I know and they they've had when I went in take them into the surgical wards, the medical patients if you remember when I went in and they start cancelling. like all kind of That's right. You got cancelled. They said they said oh there's no beds left at all, there's probably about ten and the there was a bed, then I had to wait till about half past three in the afternoon to get into it. And that was er nineteen eighty five. That's right. So anyway won't bother you. How's Norma? Mm mm. She got a Hmm. or whatever it was? Ah ha? Yes. Erm What was it a fuse? No, no, it was the radiators, er problem with the radiators. Radiators. And, they had to pull everything up and she wasn't very pleased about it. They're pulling, then she had the, the erm you know she got a phone for Christmas, we gave, we gave her a Yes. phone for Christmas so Chris plugged it in and then Yes. and then she had a complica problem with her line and she was blaming the, blaming the phone. Erm, and Chris had a look at it and said it's not the phone it's your line, so she had to have the, the G P O people in. Erm and then of course they had to haul up the floorboards and re re-lay a line for the phone Aha. for the phone she's got. They've got a blooming cheek! The, the Post Office, the erm erm telephone people have charged her for the erm a new phone when it's, and it's her o her own phone! Ha! What a cheek! But she's not paying it is she? No, no, she'll she'll erm she'll query it, but just as well she noticed otherwise she'd have been merrily paying it and Norm Norma doesn't I know. It's very naughty of them. no Norma doesn't look into these things she just pays them. It was erm Well that's la i she'd given it to to check Well that's a and he spotted it. Yeah. Well that's the thing with our, I mean we can't have one of these erm No. actually plugs in because we we got the old fashioned sort of wiring. Well yo you could, but you'd have to have erm Pay about thirty the wiring replaced and a new socket put in. Yes. Which would cost you but then th you see a if you just get a plain ordinary phone they're not erm they're not that expensive, I mean you can get them for ten pound! Yes I know, it's, yeah it's just having it all up, it's all round the doors and you know and they suppose they Mhm. pull it up, well they might leave it and just co disconnect it but they they'd have to bring it in, I don't it'd be better I think if we had ours in the back because the, the telephone thing comes in from the back be better than having it in the, in the passage really. Well You, you'd be handy for one upstairs. Yeah, but it's, yeah I'd, I'd like you to have one upstairs. Yeah. So erm save you running down the sta stairs if there's a phone Yeah. call in the, in the night. If anybody breaks Plus in. Well er, exactly. It's, plus it's gonna save, plus And for safety, plus for safety. at night. Well er mm I was gonna say it wouldn't, maybe that wouldn't happen if you had a hand one, you know one of these hand ones, but er it's an expensive but erm it's for safety even if you, there was a you, you thought you heard intruders or That's right. you, you were, became unwell in the night. Yeah. You know Yes. it's, it's, it's much safer to have one upsa mind you, we don't have one but, upstairs . You'll have to get into bed. Yes. How are the boys? Yeah. Oh! Erm, fine, fine, they're boisterous as ever. I can hear them screeching around in the background. Oh they're, believe it or not they're outside, you can hear them from outside! Oh! They were here initially, but they've gone outside, they're out the front. So there's How's your tooth? Erm oh, touch wood, fine. Aha. I can't believe it dear! If I'm, did aunty tell you I'd, I'd changed my dentist? Yeah, you can't just go? Going, I'm cha erm, cancelled yesterday cos I wasn't off anyway erm but I've managed, I've used that as a opportunity to go onto the other doctor the other dentist. Which one's that? Miss . Oh yes. Changed to her. I think you can have anybody anyway. You can, yes. It's just, er the only problem is I'm half way through treatment and I don't think Oh I know. I don't think they like you changing half way through treatment. Yeah. But erm there's only one day that erm, he does that I can go anyway. Yeah. And there's, er, two days I can go when, when she's on. Yeah I know, you've got an So appointment the same day as me, but cos the thing is she said well I, I still want the tooth out but then, I'm supposed to have a a, a, an appointment for the, the , I thought God that's, I might have a, she might extract the tooth and then I won't wouldn't wanna go with a bloody mouth to the hygienist. Mhm. But I don't suppose they would Oh well. give me another for that. She'd,sh she'd cancel and give you another appointment. Mm mm. Er, she said, you know, make it one to sort of so you don't have to come back. Mind you it wasn't all that long ago I was, went Mhm. to the hygienist anyway. No, you've I haven't, it's me that hasn't been, I'm terrible for ah ha Anyway, better go. not going to her. Better go. Right. Erm so er, he hasn't opened his cards, he's he's not back so he, he's Oh he's away is he? He stayed at Norma's last night. Oh did he? Well erm Fiona his boss erm she's leaving, so it was her leaving do last night Oh! and then it went on to his birthday so they made the excuse that they'd have a a double celebration. Oh! Erm, and they went out last night. He'll have a sore head then? Yeah. He'll be hung over. Erm, so he sta Ha! stayed at Norma's, and, he's coming back briefly, because he's got the football, this afternoon's a big match on. Has, er who's taking over from him then? Er, no Nob the woman? Oh! I, I thought you meant from the football. Erm but it's go it's gonna be open to erm, applicants but he's already made enquiries as to his erm chances of getting it,th and there's, there's so many people wi already being given promotion but haven't got a erm a post No. who are sitting waiting for posts, erm, it's most likely be one of those that will get it. But erm he's certainly, he's made enquiries. There's a lot of changes in afoot, we're erm I shall discuss it let you know all about it one, one day if anything comes of it. But erm,a unless you do something yourself there's no promotion i in No. in the civil service at the moment at all. That's him been in this post for twelve years? Yeah. Erm which is unheard of! Yes. Unheard of in the civil service. Usually, couple of years and you get, you get erm a promotion, but there's nothing, and the, the jobs that are coming up they're erm they're already sort of la allocated to people been given promotion. Mm. And pass boards and erm you know, are just sitting waiting. Some people waited three years to get a post for a promotion they had you know, three beers, years back. So it erm he's thinking, I don't know, ah he wo probably won't like it but erm it won't affect me, it'll affect Chris erm he might be going down to down to Leeds. Why? He maybe,th there's lots and lots of posts down in Leeds coming back e every weekend. Mhm. Just erm, having digs down there. Erm, taking promotion that way. It's, what they've done is they've closed er er, erm branch, an office massive office in London and they've moved them all over to Leeds because they can't get the people to take jobs in London so they've transferred it all to Leeds, and erm there's a chance of erm getting promotion, well, a very good chance of getting promotion down there. But if, if I stay here it means that we've, we've a, a ho a home in the, the base, and he'll get a transfer back guaranteed transfer back within two or three years, so it means just travelling for for erm you know, that length of time. Puts it all onto you though doesn't it? To get the children to school and all the rest of it. Well erm just have to get on with it and and and cope, there's plenty of single parents who have to do it themselves all the time. And got lots of good friends and Le Lesley's always super erm to fall back on. But Alright. There's no no other solution for it. It's o onl only a thought anyway, we just, as I say we're just erm we're mulling it over and it hasn't the jobs haven't even come up yet, but erm it's, it's it's a means to a Where's Fiona an end. that's gone, the ga the woman ? She's going to Leeds too? Oh! She's going to Mm. Leeds. She's erm but she's from down that way Mhm. not from Leeds, but she's not far away from Le from Leeds so erm it's it won't be so strange to her. But he seems quite keen, Chris. Erm it would be beneficial so Aha. I've given you a I've given you a warning if I and it won't be such a shock to your sa system if it erm if we come out with a the news. Right you are dear. Take care dear. Right. I'll see you sa see you soon. Erm we're coming in on Sunday to see Norma so I might pop in pop in on Sunday afternoon. How is Norma ? Fine. Fine. She seemed quite bright when erm I phoned her yesterday cos erm Mhm. She li she's very busy. Is she? Mhm. She's got Bill and erm Bill and Anne coming up. And they, they won a holiday to erm oh,Di Disney, Disney, EuroDisney. They've won a holiday? They won a holiday. Yes. Good! And Norma was trying to persuade, because, it was for two adults and two children, she was trying to persuade them to take the boys with them. But erm it landed on deaf ears. So I don't know when they've, when they go but erm they've won that, it's obviously through one of their Yeah. things erm in the cash and carry promotions. So she's got them coming up. Erm, and Anne as well, so she's not too chuffed about having to Isn't she? entertain Anne. Mhm. Er,no knowing her, her, her liking for Anne. Erm this this week coming. Oh. Next weekend. Okay then. So I'll let you go then. Okay. Bye-bye. We'll see you soon. Yep. Bye. Hello! Aha. We might Yeah. we might we might be going over to see Mary on Sunday Aha. so you might not find us in. Oh right. Oh well,we I'll just leave Sunday then. Erm but Sunday afternoon we said we'd Mm. possibly I'm ta talking about George and then she said, oh when are you coming to see me? So I thought well Mm. we'll get it over with somehow, said oh Sunday afternoon probably. Mhm. I mean Och, well we'll we'll be back by No we'll do we'll just, we'll just, I'll just erm so come ano another day when, let you is dad o dad okay? Dad awf awfully Yep. upset? Yep. Erm No? well expected anyway. Mhm. It's sad but I mean I think miles away you sort of not quite so bad, traumatic. Mhm. Yeah well And I think erm nan's er,we can't get her in yet, she doesn't seem to be in . Does she not know? Well er Did erm I think, you know they Gillian not phone her? er, never at home sort of thing and Aha. she seems to be out, I suppose they'll be playing bowls or something. Because it's about the afternoon there you see, it's not such as many hours ahead as er Austra Au Australia, I mean, they're eleven hours ahead. Mhm. Have you to phone for, for Gillian? Er, no Gillian phoned us. So Gillian told us just to,i if she could phone nan. Mhm. And, yeah, it was better coming from him. Oh right, so you you offered to phone up. It gets a bi it gives her one less to, er it's quite traumatic having to give out the news. I remember that for, for erm Chris for Alistaire. Yeah. Must go! There's someone coming to the door. Bye. Okay. See you. Bye ! Hi! Some time we think we're nearer peace and then we find we're it's not, it's some, broken out somewhere else. So that's, that's er the way it is. What we do is we just leave the two for forty P if you think you'd like to have a read, read of them. Mhm. I'll just, I'll give you the forty P I've with er let you keep the the magazines. Och! No! You, you'll have to take them. Because we don't actually do that . Maybe some of your family would, would really like er, they're not, old enough for No. for that No. kind of thing? I suppose maybe not. So Got a cold? A frog in my throat. Yeah, yeah Plenty of them this year. there's plenty of colds going round at the moment. Are they forty each? Forty, the two, for two. For two. Oh right. Forty's for the two, yes. There you go then. Do take them. Okay. I'm sure you'll find some interesting, I know maybe you've, you've er feel like you have your own church or something like that, but so many of the articles are in the general interest, you know, to everybody. Erm, er, I mean, we would like peace wouldn't we? You're Certainly would. by the way. Okay, thanks very much. Thank you very much. Bye-bye dear. Bye bye. Are you waiting for somebody coming? I was looking to see where the cha children were? Oh I see. Oh! There they are. There they are. for safety Aha. Aha. Well I've gotta keep an eye them though these days. You do. They might get it whether they want it or not. Right. ! No. No time. Oh ! Hi. Hung over? Where were you? Pardon? Where were you? I was talking to John and Marjorie on the front grass. And she's saying John's waiting for a phone call and she says, oh that's your phone, there's your phone call. And I said, I, didn't hear the phone ringing. She says, oh no,it's yours ! So I come belting in. So you're fit? Wouldn't say that. Hung over? God! Shut this door it's freezing! Mm. Is it nice to waste time? Er in, in general but very disappointed with the come out. Really? Yeah. Well, just as well we're not gonna go there then? Er no I think it wa I think it was our, our mistake er, there was there were sixteen of us there and seven of us had sort of clubbed together looked at the menu and it's it's fifteen ninety five, to, the rich main course banquet Mummy, I want Postman Pat . thinking, you know, this'll be it's gotta be something special but it really wasn't. Mm mm. It wasn't we were right against the window, cold backs, I mean we were I was freezing! Obviously don't use it very often. Don't bother Yeah. heating it. I, I had, I had to finish, no curry I had finished my, my veal with my jacket on. Oh! And that's unlike you too, you don't usually feel the cold. I mean,, but I'd really, seriously wished I had said to the waiter, but obviously we're having a good time . Er I seriously wish I'd said to them you know, I'm, I'm phoning it a fortnight in advance because I want to stick to the arrangements. Cos they can easily seat sixteen up there. Mhm. You know if you, if you give them the notice. What's this for? Sorry? What's this for? What's what for? For sitting in the the main restaurant? Well I was sa I'm saying that's what I did with it last year for my birthday. Oh I see! Right. And they put me in the banqueting room, erm but we couldn't, d'ya know . That's right, cos you wanted the atmosphere didn't you? That's right, I remember now. I'm with you. On the same wavelength. Right, so I went I went . Mhm. Well it was really very good. Very, very good. Mm. Late night was it? Fairly yes. About two. See? Mhm. Kept on getting thrown out of clubs. You know this is a, a great club . I think, I've heard about it erm one of the new clubs that's, they'd opened up in Edinburgh. Well it's over twenty fives Mhm. That's right. I heard and so er I heard a report about it. so the riff-raff, they can't get in, no jeans or something like that. And, then we'd be up, usually up and down Mhm. er, and the, all the people Oh! er no he enjoyed himself thoroughly! It's not, I mean, it's music, and it's pop music but it's not . Aha. So, he played at, played at a level Well that would suit me cos I can't stand these places where you can't hear yourself speak! Well he played at a level, I mean er, I mean he but it's played at a level where it's loud enough er to have a good boogie on down to Mhm. and it's also at the level just like a round the corner and hold a conversation. Mhm. Well this been there you know. Er, the girl that the girl that . Right. So what time you coming back? Well I've just got to . Oh! Aye, this phone is wonderful isn't it? Yeah,. Yeah. Have to get out to phone. Yep. And erm Oh! You can te erm pass on some sad news to erm, your mum. George, yeah. Er, mum's just phoned erm he's died, died erm Yeah. Just Who Gillian? Yeah. This morning. Died this morn erm phoned this morning Well Er so er er Gillian seems to be taking it very well actually, I think it's erm, quite a relief, relief erm Oh I mean that's it love, yeah. it And again it's yeah Mm. she'll be, she'll be . Yeah. And and they've been waiting since for it to happen. So erm the funeral, with it being the weekend it won't be till next, next week the funeral. And he's not wanting flowers and he's not wanting this, not wanting that, it's really wanting to keep it a very, quiet small affair. George wasn't into all that. So Yeah, so er . Mhm. Pardon? Can I come in? Yeah. Yeah. That's true. Mm. Can I, come in? I shall be coming with the boys. Yeah. Cos they haven't, they, they've been asking for Well how, how many did you do? ages erm Mm? to to see granny and Well I suppose they Yeah. I don't know, you don't have to go. Yo I can Well yeah, that's great. But erm, they, they're desperate. Oh great. Oh! They're desperate to see, and they want to her new T V and all all this. Mm. So, I mean, they was trying to come up one day so I could watch the telly and I really needed to . Mm. Mhm. That'll, that'll be a new deal then. Oh yeah. That'll suit you wa right down to the ground! You're a wee sa that was obviously what I was gonna say . Aha. Just because it's your birthday I'll let you get away with it. Right. So er you get a pressie from your mum? Aha. And a card. Mhm. Er sh er er right time am I coming back then? I did, aha. Er, probably for about let's see half past five I would think, half past five, quarter to six. Can you not come back between, before then? Now? Not at lunchtime? No, cos I'm Oh. going to football. So you're going straight on to the football are you? Well, I might as well because Yeah. you believe it or not I came here, mum Oh! I'm having an entertainment here. Oh dear! Where did you get the scone from? Says he baked I was it. He did, yeah. I'm most impressed. Nursery, but you're not supposed to help yourself you know from the fridge. Mm. That was mine! Mm. They're a lively pair. Most friendly. Oh yeah. I have Yeah. been shown all sorts of things. How to ? Well no, that's alright love, I'm not here to arrange Oh! I see you've got all the clobber here. Oh! Excuse me! That Th one person did it very well apparently but she was a person who er an older person who wasn't working. It's quite difficult for Mhm. people working and with children. It's a lot more complicated than, than I thought. And, a lot of the time this week's been, the worst possible week it could have been No it isn't! cos we've been out a lot. Yeah. And if my husband's out I'm sitting in the house That's right. well, I can't get away cos the children are in bed. Yes. Can't even go round and see friends and No. you know, see . Mum! Watch me! Oh right. Erm Er i that's, that's been, that's been erm quite difficult, and as I said Mum! Watch me! I work. But you can't take it to work. I've got erm Watch me mummy! Shush! Ethical problems with, you know, there's some super patients I'd love to take it to, and I don't think they probably would have minded if having having thought about it if I'd asked. You don't need Ah! Get off to explain it. It's not fair. No, er no. I don't think that's fair. No. I don't think it's fair really to, not to somebody house Mm. What? I don't think it's fair. Well the Well not that thing after I do I mean, I think a as you say there are marvellous conversations but that's just too bad, I don't think that, I really don't think that's fair. Natasha? Yes Sarah, I've seen Sarah Yeah Susie Yeah yes, Aysha? Natasha Yes Claire, over there, Brea oh yeah, does anybody know if Brea is still in hospital? She's, she came out last week, but I still think she's feeling a bit Jane Melanie here? Kate here? Susie's here, Sarah Haven't seen her yet, she might be here Janice Yes Holly I've seen, Kerry's not here yet is she? Right, shall we make a start because the time's pressing on. I've got some erm announcements for this morning, Vicky, erm first of all I'd like to introduce you to Anthony who comes from Longman's Dictionaries why did, why did you do that Melanie? Er cos I think you just told us that man you know last count didn't we, ask me Yes Good morning Hello I'm from the Evening News you're, you're recording Oh good grief sorry I've been all round the yeah carry on Right take a picture of the recordist never mind Erm Anthony is taping, he's in the college today, he's taping erm, the, the sounds that we make, the vocabulary that we use, not for the content of our classes that's right isn't it? Mm But for the way we actually use and pronounce our English language. Oh no And Anthony and his, Anthony and his colleagues are going around, is it just England or are you going to Scotland and Wales as well? The whole of Great Britain, so Northern, Northern Ireland as well. The whole of British Isles, right , erm in various sort of settings, different places, you're going to a school aren't you tomorrow Mm is that right? Various other places too, so they get a good idea of the English language as it's spoken in the nineteen nineties. This is for pros posterity Smile posterity, is that right? For the future for erm, for record, we've not been able in the past to know how people spoke only from books, dictionaries and try to describe how people said things, erm, but this is a living record and I'm getting more and more embarrassed as the minutes go by and those of you who are doing drama this afternoon, anybody doing drama? Erm he's going to be recording Frances' session Oh right as well, alright? Okay? So that's that, but he's not going to interfere with us talking, let's carry on, at about ten o'clock Graham is coming who is, I'm, as you know I'm doing erm, er a teaching course, I'm not a teacher you see, I'm a, I'm a nurse, he's coming to assess me on er, this is a teaching practice for me, alright, so he will come in and I think he'll sit over there and we'll just get on. Right last, last week we did erm cold injury in the new born didn't we? We'll just recap briefly on what we did. Thank you, fine now this is Is that clear? Yeah Right did we actually do the susceptible babies? Yeah Alright Jane? Is that alright? I don't know it's engaged, er Jill's trying to phone the school as well and that's engaged, so I don't know The bab the babies who are susceptible to getting this cold injury are, what did we do last week? What did we cover? Erm cold what type of babies did they cover? Low birth weight Pre-term, premature and small babies, there that, are you alright Kate? There are other reasons why babies might be susceptible, and there are a list of things that you may well know about from babies you're looking after. Where after they've been born, they might have had delayed breathing, not breathed immediately, so that type of baby might be at risk. If the actual delivery or the birth of the baby had been difficult, traumatic for example a forceps delivery or a very long labour, where the baby and the mum got very tired and exhausted If there's any, if there's any congenital amalgamation we can discuss it we just have a recap, okay, if there's any congenital amalgamation particularly in the central nervous system, things like spina bifida, hydrocephalus, problems like that and any underlying infection or feeding difficulties and the feeding difficulties could be cause or effect, we've got a baby that's erm, who's temperature is dropping, it's getting more sleepy and erm it's difficult to feed and if a baby's not feeding properly it won't be able to warm itself up. If you're, if you're outside and you get really cold what do you do? Warm yourself More clothing Yeah, what else might you do? You'd go inside and have what a hot? Drink Yeah or a hot meal and that would really warm you up wouldn't it? So you can see that the last, this is a vicious circle. Kerry would you like to sort of sit over there or something? I can see it's okay. It's alright Kerry it's just that Graham has come to do, to observe my teaching and he'll be wanting to sit there, is that alright? Yeah Kerry get a chair Oh, erm could you leave that up Cathy for a minute? We need to think that why new babies are so prone to cold injury and a lot of the reasons, can I take that down, are very obvious if you think about them cold injury is the same as hypothermia. What other group of people get hypothermia? Old people Old people that's right, why do old people get hypothermia? Because they don't move about very much. Cathy did we write this last week or not? Erm This one I don't think we did Right I just want to go through it with you and recap. Old people because they don't move around, what else don't they do? They perhaps don't eat much. What might be where they're living? It might be quite Cold Cold and damp Right their environment's cold babies actually have a very large surface area in relation to their weight. If you look at a baby they're totally out of proportion and they have huge heads don't they? Compared to the rest of their body and they don't have much hair, if any, to keep them warm. They have very large bodies and little limbs, so the heat lost from their heads and their bodies could be quite great. That makes sense to you? Yeah. What does it say at the end in relation to what? Weight, W T Yeah, that's what I thought abbreviation, weight When babies are born, erm what are they? Er are they dry or Wet Wet If you come out of a swimming pool and stand at the side what happens to you? You get cold Mm and shiver. Right the body surface at birth is wet and therefore cools quite rapidly so they've got big surface area and they're born wet and they have to be dried off. When they're, when they're inside their mums, do they have to control their temperature? No because the mother does that for them That's right, well it's in a, they're in a, in a very warm environment aren't they? And it's con the temperature is constant, it's like being in an incubator. Body temperature is ninety eight point four isn't it? And it stays like that throughout, so the baby does not use its mechanism to control the temperature, it's kept at that constant degree of warmth and it's only when the baby comes out that it has to start looking after itself. So what I've written is babies prior to birth do not control their temperature, they have the ability to control their temperature because that's a little space in the brain, but they don't need to use it. They're kept warm When you saw those little babies last week that were born very, very premature, apart from being very small, if you looked at those arms and legs and their bodies what was the noticeably different about them than a full term baby? Colour of their skin. Colour, yeah, something else The way they breath, breathing What was that Sarah? breathing Breathing, no something to do about their physical appearance They're really curled up more than like a normal baby aren't they, they're all sort of, you know, foetal position. No it's to do with they don't have that much fat on them. A new born baby can be really quite chubby and these little premature babies have very, very little fat under their skin and fat insulates us doesn't it? It keeps us warm, so pre-term and small babies have very little fat to insulate them, therefore they're gonna get cold aren't they? And these are all reasons why these babies might get cold. If you come out of our, out of a swimming pool and you're wet and you stand on the side and you're beginning to get cold, what's your body reaction, what do you do? Shiver Shiver and you get goose bumps Shiver, right. Have you ever seen a baby shiver? No they can't shiver They don't shiver And they Babies , babies actually can't shiver. They're unable to do it and shivering is a body reaction to being cold to make you warm up because it's rapid movement and babies can't do that, this isn't very clear, hang on that better? Yeah That's better, top goes, but right so babies cannot shiver which is a temperature raising or maintaining mechanism. We've said that when it's a baby inside its mum, doesn't have to control its own temperature, and in actual fact it's several days after birth, after the baby's born that it can effectively produce its own heat and its metabolism functions efficiently. Metabolism is the process by which you take in food, use it and convert it into energy and heat, er several days, so there were several days after the baby's born when it's really very much at risk of getting cold injury. it's an enormous adaptation that the baby has to make from being cocooned inside its mum to actually living outside, it has a whole host of new things to do, it's gotta breath, it's gotta eat it's erm, it's excretory system has got to work, bowels and bladder, it's got to control its own temperature. When a baby's born, er you wrap it up and you put it in its cot and it's very inactive isn't it? They're not very active are they? No And in the first day of life they tend to sleep an awful lot, right, so newborns tend to be sleepy and inactive and the things that, that wake babies up and warm them are feeding, crying, limb movement. So within, your very new born sleeping all the time it, its body temperature can begin to drop without you knowing. the older the baby gets the less common it is to find the cold injury. Can I take that down? No Move up? We're going to go on to the effects of chilling and what damage does that do? Chilling? We did, chilling, yeah getting cold, last year we did, in your first aid course you did hypothermia didn't you? What's the normal body temperature, can anybody remember? Thirty seven degrees Or Ninety eight Ninety eight Thirty six What, what is it in fahrenheit? Ninety eight Thirty seven or ninety eight point four Oh round about okay? If the body temperature falls to, sorry we're not clear again are we? Falls to thirty two degrees centigrade or ninety degrees fahrenheit the following can occur and that's a big drop, that's a drop of five degrees in this country we're very used to rapid temperature changes in our environment in the spring you can have frost in the morning and it can get really quite hot by the afternoon, sometimes up to about seventy can't it? And then the temperature drops down rapidly again. Right, what do you think might happen if a baby's getting chilled, what signs do you think might you notice? Blue Cold to the touch. Yeah cold to touch Blue Blue Yeah Crying Pale skin Pale skin, right, what about its behaviour? Crying They may not cry actually something else that could be quite actually misleading might sleep, be very sleepy, difficult to wake, so if you've got the baby and you think your baby's due for a feed and it didn't take very much at the last feed, you can't wake it up you shouldn't think oh well I'll have to wait for another four hours, beginning to get worried so if the baby's difficult to wake if it's difficult to feed not sucking very well if the baby's cold to touch and then there's something which is very, very misleading, these babies can have bright red cheeks and bright red hands and feet and if you look at them you think oh they must be warm because they're red don't be fooled by the healthy appearance. Always touch a baby, its hands and its feet and the feet are a better guide to my hands, because babies' hands can often be cold. If you've got cold feet at night can you go to sleep? Depends how tired I am. Who, who if they've cold feet lies awake, till they warm up? Got socks So that's very, very important because it can be very misleading and you could be fooled into thinking that there's nothing wrong with the baby, then there'll also be swelling of the hands, feet and the eyelids might swell up, the medical word for that is oedema which you may well see in books, which means swelling occasionally the overlying skin is Cathy hard and these babies can look really serene and peaceful so serene and peaceful that next time you go they're not there any more, well their body's there. Okay got that down? Serene it means peaceful and calm, erm Treatment, you should, if you think back to your hypothermia, what are the very simple practical things you can do if you find a baby that you think, suspect's got cold injury? Give it hot, oh not hot a warm drink or You have to warm it up cuddle it and You may or may not be able to do that because it may have lost consciousness, alright, but we'll put down warm drink if possible. Raise the temperature of the room. If it's unconscious you can't do that, you'd choke it Raise the temperature of the room Mouth to mouth don't you? and cuddle the baby You would give it mouth to mouth if it was dead, if its heart had stopped beating. If you find a baby er you'd pick it up, it's sort of very erm sleepy you can't rouse it and it's got bright red cheeks and feet and you realize that it's cold, what are you going to do immediately? Cuddle it Cuddle it right, it's wrapped up in about six layers of erm whatever, are you just going to pick it up and cuddle it or are you going to do anything with all those layers? Take Take into the room temperature and take the covers off. You've got a number of things here, you would take off the outer layer and you would bring it close to your body, if you, if you just pick it up with lots of layers around it you're insulating it aren't you, to keep it cold, so you cuddle it close to your body right, and you remove outer layers of cloths Melanie said something about room temperature, right you raise the room temperature, okay? What else would it be a good idea to do if you had something to do it with, about the temperature? You'd want to know Take its temperature Yes take the ta baby's temperature that, this way you know whether the temperature's falling or going up, don't you? And you can report that because this baby's going to need to go to hospital right so those are the three things you do, you raise the room temperature, erm you cuddle the baby close to your own body which should be warm, removing any excess layers, you can then wrap a blanket around yourself and the baby, if you can, give it a warm drink but you, you may, may not be able to do that, you take the baby's temperature and you seek medical advice right Is that quite clear? That's very similar to the straightforward hypothermia that you'd might find in an old person or somebody who's in a, in a snowy field all night, have you all got that? Yeah But of course, better than treatment we have prevention don't we? What can we do to prevent this situation from arising? Quite a lot of things, right Melanie what, what temperature would you like? About Shall we say seventy degrees fahrenheit What's that in normal What's that in We're asking you Twenty five, no Is twenty five a bit hot? Yeah No cosy Isn't it eighteen or twenty? Yes I think you're right actually, shall we put, shall we put twenty? Go on then. Er it's important to keep that constant twenty four hours a day there's a danger area when new born babies are actually put into their own rooms, particularly in the winter, if they're in the room with their, with their parents and the room temperature falls very low, the parent's likely to notice and get cold themselves which means they'll pay attention to the baby, if the baby is far end of the house, up the north end where the wind's blowing, right, er what else can we do to keep the baby warm? Blankets and clothing. Right, what, what about blankets and clothing? Well not too much Right not one big thing Yeah lots of small things Not one big thing, lots of little layers Several layers, lots of, fairly thin layers, why is that warmer than one thick layer? Because it insulates the it traps air between each layer. It traps the air between the layer, the layer and air, air is a good insulator, alright. So several layers' warmer than one thick one. What else about the fabrics that you use? Celia, what about the fabrics that you might use for a baby? Which are the natural fibres? Cotton There's another one to keep very warm silk Silk in actual fact mixtures of synthetic and natural fibres are very, very good because they give the warmth of the natural fibres plus the erm enduring properties of the manmade fibres which wash and last well, okay, but natural fibres are much, much warmer. What else might you do? What should you do? What other things is the baby exposed to, it might make it cold? Draughts Draughts, very good make sure the baby's not in a draught can you think of anything else? Damp Keep a baby in like a warm baby-gro Babies should have their nappies changed regularly because when they become wet they give off heat don't they? Oh yeah Right, the the same way as when they dribble and they're, maybe a little bit sick, their clothing gets damp, it acts as a conductor of warmth so it will cool them and it will make them sore as well, so keep the baby dry as possible. Now these are all things that you should be doing with the baby all the time anyway aren't they? Yeah The good care there's one other thing that we talked briefly about in the signs and symptoms and what happened that you could check for you look at a baby, what else do you do? Touch Right, what would you touch? The feet The feet Right so you touch its extremities and if you feel that its little feet are lovely and warm you know that it's alright, okay? You touch the extremities, the hands and feet you can keep the head covered as well particularly when you take the baby out. Other things you can do, when you put a baby into its bed you can make sure the bed's warm can't you? You could have warmed it up with a hot water bottle or a heat pad don't leave it there with the baby in it, but you can certainly warm the bed first, you can warm the baby's clothes, keep them in the airing cupboard, or lots of houses around here have Agas don't they? You can warm them up on the Aga, okay? Obviously cold injury is far more common when would you expect cold injury to be common? In a temperature of maybe erm er right, what about seasonal? Right, winter babies are more susceptible and small okay? Do you want to pass a chair up Sarah and Tasha? Sarah you'll need to get all this information from somebody else. Right. Are there any questions about that? Does it worry anybody? We're going to go on to what used to be called club foot which is a fairly gross word word Right How do you pronounce that, talipes? Talipes Talipes the er main word for that is club foot, what does that mean, does anybody like to tell me? We saw it at the hospital did you? Right What did, Melanie, can you tell us what you did then? It's when the foot's twisted round, it won't stay square. It can be, it can be two types of, what can it be do you know? It can either be fixed or it can be mobile, we'll go on to that, I've actually drawn you four pictures, not very good pictures Aargh There you are you think of that as your foot, this one is where the foot, erm goes inwards, can you see? That one, that's the big toe, is where the foot actually is twisted outwards this one is where the foot is curved under, and that I've put in red because it's the most common sort, very common, that is where the foot is forced up and that one is where it looks as though it's standing on its toes. Those are the more or less the five variations on a theme. What problems do you think club foot talipes might cause? Shoes Delays walking doesn't it? Can't walk Difficulty walking Delays growth and walking doesn't it? If you have, sorry? Delays growth and development and walking Certainly delays walking, that earlier development. If you had this type you wouldn't actually be able to walk properly at all would you? Wouldn't be able to walk Oh no Want to draw them all do you? Oh yeah No Yeah Can you quickly stick it up please is a foot deformity, present at birth right, present at birth, it doesn't happen afterwards, it happens, it's caused before the baby's born and it's more common in boys can be one or both foot, feet. How do you think it might be caused? If the mother's had mumps or something Bad feet posi positioning in, in the stomach. Foetal position, yes, what sort of foetal position? Wow Breach If it's been, if the baby's sort of squashed The feet have been bent up, the feet have been squashed and bent up. So it's caused by foetal position and there's something that can make it worse, you know the mother erm inside erm the womb there's a bag of fluid that the baby floats in Yeah right, if there isn't very much of that fluid, there's very little fluid, there'll be more pressure on the baby won't there? Because the fluid acts as a kind of cushion. So I've written too little liquor for them, a wonderful word which is actually the proper word, called onigohydromonous That's wonderful Amniotic fluid, you all know what that is don't you? Yeah If I write this on the board, I'll break it down for you because it's a word you may well see, sorry about that Cathy Yeah what does that say too little? Liquor Pardon? you know that word It's liquor liquor, liquor, yeah, that's erm the fluid that the baby floats in, amniotic fluid, liquor I've never heard of that Have you not heard it? No Pe , if you haven't heard, you've all heard of amniotic fluid, put that then. What's the other one? How do you spell that onigohydromo I was going to write it on the board for you What's the other one? it's all one word, but I'll write it What one? Onigo That is water isn't it? Hydro is water Yeah amnio amniotic fluid, and onigo means not much Oh and that's the medical word for it, draw, write it in a line not much amniotic fluid Sorry I've left a bit out That's what it means Can you see that? It's quite a common event in, and it can be two types, it can be either fixed or flexible, if it's fixed it means the foot is in a position that you can't move out of if it's flexible it means that the baby has its foot like that but you can actually rotate it Aargh But it will go back to the same position as that? Yes, would they go back to the same position, quite right Sarah when do babies start to walk? It could be er Between what ages? Nine to a year Nine months, yeah, to what? Eighteen months or eighteen Behave Right, if babies actually don't walk normally until they're between nine months or eighteen months to two years. When you walk you wait there for the first time don't you? Yeah Until that time a baby won't hurt its feet in a walking position, they'll be fairly mobile won't they if you think about it, and how does a baby hold its feet when it's crawling? When a baby's crawling how does it hold its feet? Like that. Right, they go out behind don't they? yeah Have any of you been on, on placements where mums have been really quite worried about their baby's feet and asked questions? No No lots of mums will ask about their baby's feet, do you think there's anything wrong with this, and they'll sort of be holding their feet sort of wiggling them around, doing this, that and the other That's disgusting innit? and they'll get very worried, and it's quite a difficult area because you have to be on the look out for something that's not right, but you don't want people to get er very worried because those feet are going to be very mobile and doing non walking thing until the child walks, they're also very fat and podgy aren't they little babies' feet? And they have very short toes Stodgy What I would say, if there's any doubt, if a mother has any doubt about her baby's feet she should see the doctor and he will refer if he thinks necessary so most babies' feet can look quite odd at times and they will hold them in strange positions. What's pigeon toed? Pigeon toed is where you actually walk with your toes like that, isn't it? Move over a bit I can't see What would you do for pigeon toes Kelly? Do what? For pigeon toes What's the best treatment for pigeon toed? I had that and my mum sent me to ballet classes That's the answer, ballet classes Really, yeah that's what my mum did. because er train trains them the girls and the boys to turn their toes out, which is what we require in our society I believe. Right keep notes, er we're not talking about pigeon toes, we're talking about club foot, which is a real problem, if we don't treat this the baby when it grows up it's gonna have difficulties in walking. What do you think the treatment might be? They That's right, that's one treatment Have physiotherapy done If the foot Melanie could you give us of the Jenny in the plaster room? Yeah How old was the child? Some of them were like babies the little babies Yeah some of them and some of them are quite like about seven or Really that big? alright, fair enough, if, if the, if the deformity is mobile that means you can move it, you can actually do a lot of manipulation and physiotherapy and that can work very well. What would happen is that the physiotherapist would actually train the mother to do it, she would show her what exercises need to be done and they have to be done almost constantly, several times a day and whenever there's a spare moment, so therefore it's not feasible for it to be done in a hospital is it? And then the mum would bring the child back up regularly for assessment, to make sure that it was satisfactory. If it's fixed that means that you can't move it or it's very problematic, it's not going right, they do strapping, splints and plaster of paris as some of you have seen. How do the children react to having these plasters put on their feet? Some of them They don't like it coming off was the worse They thought it was gonna cut through their leg. If, for instance, if extremely problematic strapping, splints or plaster of paris treatments are used and treatment should be started as soon as possible after birth, so the sooner you notice these things the better You've all had your hospital experience, has anybody not actually seen a child with erm club foot? You all seen one? I haven't. I don't think so. Does anybody know whether they had one when they were a child? I, I had, my foot was in that way. I had one that What treatment did you have? it sort of sorted itself out did it? No I had a few things done, but You probably had the physiotherapy and the your mum I don't, I'd have to ask her Well you wouldn't remember would you? Can you take one of these each and just read it through. What does it say after What does it say after what? As soon after birth as possible. Cathy Right have you, have you read that? No not yet. Just read it through Are there any question? Right so that's looked for at birth, what's the other thing they check for at birth? Well they check a number of things, but Sarah do you know what they're looking for? Erm, where the ball isn't in the socket properly or it doesn't clicky hips Right, clicky hips, right does anybody know what the proper name for it is? Genital dislocation Genital dislocation of the hip Hip dislocation that means you're born with it right? You all know what dislocation is of the hips and this is another condition which should be spotted at birth, soon after. I've drawn some pictures just to show you what happens. Are we gonna get a leaflet on this or not? Cathy do we need to draw these? Well if we genital dislocation of the hips Cathy, Cathy do we have to draw these pictures? Erm I think I've got a picture for you, no you needn't, but you need Right, thank you you need to look carefully, alright? Liked to pull that down that's a normal hip joint, this is your bony pelvis with the socket joint, right, socket, this is your leg bone the femur, with the head of the femur at the top and it looks like that and they fit into one another and it forms a very good swinging joint you can do all sorts of things with your hip joint, can't you? You can swing your leg round, move it outwards it's a simple ball and socket joint and it's used in engineering quite a bit isn't it? Is it? Oh, so the head of the femur locks into this socket, this groove, this hollow and it's held, what's it held with? Cartilage Tissue Yeah, what sort of tissue? Well erm Cartilage Muscles and what else? Cartilage Not really, no it's held by muscles and ligaments, hello Graham, I have told them that you're coming, this is Graham Morning right, he's coming to learn about dislocated hips, so this is a normal hip joint and you can see that the socket is well into the grooves, isn't it? Yeah Right, this red thing here is just the lining of the socket joint, right is that clear? Yeah Happy about that? The one underneath shows us what happens if the hip is dislocated or loose Urgh right, got your socket joint the same, but you can see the head of the femur is not inside it is it? How does that happen? That's a very good question, there's a number of reasons for it happening, erm it might be that the groove, the, the socket bit is very shallow, like a shallow tea cup and the hip, the leg bone doesn't stay in it properly, does that make sense to you? Yeah Big one, it might be that the muscles and ligaments are weak Cathy surely if it's like you know said that would be too big to go in there anyway No not you said that was too shallow, so it didn't fit in, how can it be mended? Erm well what I, what happens, I think that's good, it's act it's not, it's not inside because it's encapsulated, it's not inside because it's held in there by the socket joint if I draw, draw you a picture, it's not because the socket joint is so tight it can't fall out, is that what you're saying to me? No, no, you said that it was, you said that because it was not always in there maybe because the socket's too shallow So how can it be fixed if that's too small to put it in so how can you put it back in if that's too shallow? Because it would, it would slide back in and it's actually held in by muscles and ligaments, right So it doesn't matter that it's too shallow It makes it easier for it to fall out, when a woman is pregnant, in the last few months of pregnancy she produces lots of hormones which relax the muscles in her body don't they? Mm, mm Do you remember doing this? Muscle relaxants during pregnancy, these get into the baby as well and it relax the baby's muscles and they would relax these ligaments and muscles around the hip joint which means that the hips can be not as they should be, alright? So the causes are, the socket might be too shallow or the ligaments or muscles might be too loose Is there writing on the sheet as well? Yes Should, no do we have to write it? I would write it down if I were you, yes, right and things like a breach delivery, what's a breach delivery? Feet first Bum upwards If you think about a baby coming out bottom first, it can't do very much for its hips can it? Really gives them a good old yank and a push Ooh and then somebody comes and grabs it by the legs and pulls it. Ah There are various types of breach delivery you can come out one foot first, two feet first or you can come out with your legs actually up against your face, in which case there's terrible traction on the hips, alright, and all that will cause dislocation so you, you can see the difference can't you? That socket inside of the hip joint held together nicely with er muscles and ligaments and this one not in at all properly. All it is, is where the head of the femur is not correctly positioned in the hip socket and the proper name for the hip socket, you'll see in your books is acetabulum This is definitely a condition which is familiar as a fam a family tendency and if you think about it if you have a, a, a big hip socket your children are likely to have big hip sockets it's a family family tendency, it affects more girls than boys, many more girls than boys, having said that Lord Byron had erm congenital dislocated hips. Who's he? Is he? It's about one in fifteen hundred birth and as we've said before it is often found in abnormal presentation like a breach, bottom first. To spot this what procedure is carried out? Examination and physio Yeah Do you know what they do? They rotate the hips, all babies are routinely examined at delivery and they'll find quite a number I would, of babies with slightly clicky hips, the reason for that is because of the hormones that have, er are in the baby's body to relax all the muscles, those will go away after a few days, so when they're re-checked at twelve days a number of the clicks they heard originally will no longer be there. And what they do, I'm going to try and show you on this doll in a minute, the hips are abducted which means they're brought right up against the chest and then they're pulled round and they're rotated in the socket and you feel and listen for a click What does it say in green Cathy? Feel and listen No the above one Observe talk about that in a minute. There are other signs that might lead you to believe that there's things not as they might be, the legs may not be equal length particularly if only one is dislocated and that's fairly obvious isn't it because the, the, the ball joint's not in the socket and there's a bigger gap so the leg hangs down longer and you've all changed a baby haven't you and you see that they've got little creases in the insides of their legs and across their buttocks, and those creases may not be a mirror matching they are normally, so those are clues. Can I turn that off? I've brought a doll to show you if you'd like to see what they do when they rotate babies' hips, would you all like to see that? Yes One doll out of the cupboard. Do you want to come up round? I'll explain it to you, if you've got to stand in a circle because you can't see from over there you won't actually ever do this yourself, but you may well see it being done, in fact you probably will. People who do this are actually given a training, this doesn't hurt the baby, they don't mind, their bones are very soft you'll look at your baby, all of you can look at babies that you're caring for and you hold them and you see well is that leg longer than the other? I think this one is definitely longer than the other, right, so hold its legs down. You look for the creases, if you look at this doll is lov beautifully creased and you can see that the creases almost match each other, you turn the baby over and there's lots of little creases and they match, can you all see that? Can't see. Right you then get your baby, you'll see the midwives doing this, you stabilize the baby pelvis, because otherwise it will just sort of go all over the place won't it, and this doll is, is fairly fixed, it's not a very soft thing like a baby and you, with your hand you put your finger which is about the same length as the baby's finger isn't it? If you think about it, you slide it into where the joint would be along the line of the femur bone, you bend the knee up, and you pull it right up and you rotate it Ouch and you bring it down, and if there's anything wrong you'll feel it slowly so that it may click, you do one side and then the other, right the old fashioned treatment for erm dislocated hip was double nappies, er do you know what that? Give it more support you're actually splaying the legs out aren't you? Right and if you splay the legs out like that Ouch you're actually Doing yoga there you're actually pushing the head of the femur back into the joint and the modern treatment is they put babies in splints, they lay them on like frames from splints and they're strapped into them and they stay in them from anything up to a year, and babies don't mind, but if you, if you think about it, if you do a double nappy Very absorbent you're actually putting a great thick wedge between the baby's legs Cor and you're got a bloody innit? and you're actually partly doing that aren't you? My sister had it when she had Oh did she? What happened to your sister? Oh she's alright, she just had double nappies on for a very long time and they weren't disposable were they? No, no they were terries Right, so the terries, terries are the best things any questions about that? You'll probably see that being done and you may well see some babies in a splint. So the treatment is double nappy if it's not a very er serious one or if they notice a click just after delivery they would immediately put the baby in double nappies. If it's diagnosed as erm leaving treatment there's a variety of splints that frames that you lie the baby on, strap them in and they remain in that position with their legs Alright don't do it again Cathy like that okay, that's how they are. They're not uncomfortable, they get used to it. Used to it, god. You all see six month old babies putting their feet in their mouths haven't you? they don't, it doesn't bother them at all right, they're used under supervision and they're used until the head of the femur right, the head of the femur is fixed back into the socket joint and the muscles and ligaments have tightened up so that they hold the bone in place and treatment can go on until they're about a year the consequences of not treating this condition are quite severe, the child will grow up with a very odd gait. Gait? If you, if you are standing like this and you pick up one foot you will slightly raise your pelvis on the opposite side won't you? Do you want to try that? No, not particularly. Stand up pick up, pick up your, your right foot what happens to your pelvis, does it go up a bit? Yeah. Right, somebody with congenital dislocation of the hip, the hip will sag down it will cause them great difficulty and they have a waddling gait, and they'll walk like this and if you look at African women a lot of them have congenital dislocation of the hip when they waddle Cathy because it's not treated what does erm, that blue writing, the third line down? Last word Right keep going this is used until the femoral head, head of femur, femoral head and the acetabulum which is that socket joint have grown, because they will grow, they both get bigger and the muscles and ligaments hold them firmly together, right, so that the hip no longer slides out of its joint. it's essential that that's treated. Can we have another look at it please. You have a sorry I've got a little handout for you with bits of information and there's also a picture of a breach presentation and this baby has got its feet right up into its high socket. Can I take this down? Yeah Are there any questions about that? Is it quite clear what happens, why and how it's treated? Yeah Sorry I missed the whole, what did she say? Cathy when I was in hospital in er a physiotherapy bit, where they, where they brought children in, erm there was this little girl and like she was riding round on a little bike, you know, so she's quite, quite old and she had er, in, in brace, but her legs were like out at the side and her feet were pointing down and they're pointing up, I'm just a bit confused. Well this is a fixed doll isn't it? Yeah, well they would go down wouldn't they? And she might well hold her because, but when you say quite old, what do you mean? Well she is Was she seven or was she Oh no about three something like that, she wasn't a baby what I meant She, she's about three right, fine, okay, she's got past toddler stage, if, you see, if, if she was three and her feet were in splint, did she wal she didn't wait there did she? No it was in er, in was in like a plaster of paris thing Right, so she couldn't actually walk No, she was riding a little bike She could pedal? No she was had her feet on the ground Oh right they were straight Her feet Her legs, she couldn't bend the legs Her legs were out to the side like that Yes and when she walked they were sort of right, so she was like a frog? Like, like that? Oh no, you're talking about I can't describe it, she had, her legs were out to the side, but they were pointing down like that Yes that's right , right well that's a baby, that's a baby that will be like that, but she's older, so her legs would be, she would be in that position wouldn't she? Because she's an older child. But is it because they left it too late or something then? Erm, it sounds a bit grim if she's three and she's in a hip plaster, yes or a splint Yeah it was a plaster, it was a plaster Yeah, yeah , but every case is different, you don't, I mean she might of been in some car accident or something like that you see, mightn't she? Mm, she might of been, I don't think she was, but There are, you know, there are, yeah, occasionally they, they aren't diagnosed, very unfortunate. Look at this position my rubber, when about six days after baby's born they take erm blood erm don't they from the heel, do you remember that? What's it called? The birth blood test Named after a person by the name of Guffbry it is initially used to diagnosed what? Can you remember? Do you know? Brain damage or something Spina bifida isn't it? Somebody mentioned this to me the other day P K U Penal P K U, have you all heard of P K U? Yes What is it? we're going to find out. I've said it about four times What is it? The proper word is, come from a very long word, a real mouthful, phenylketonuria, known as P K U for short P U, and Mr Guffbry developed this test specifically to diagnose this condition, but in nineteen ninety two there are other conditions which they diagnose at the same time with the same blood test, do you know what they are? no that's obvious, because this is after the baby's born Oh right Something that you may not notice at birth Is it brain damage? this will cause brain damage Oh that's right another dis another disorder Diabetes? An awful word which is used in the English language cretinism have you heard of this awful word cretinism? No, it's horrible Cretinism is used as a term of abuse isn't it? Yeah Right, in actual fact cretinism is a medical condition where there's lack of thyroid and this is found, this is tested for at birth as well so we don't have any cretins in our society because they're all treated, the other thing they check for, do you know what it is? Cystic fibrosis, you've all heard of that haven't you? Yes A very nasty disorder, which causes so after these tests, and we did this last year, check the P K U, cretinism and cystic fibrosis, we're going to look at P K U today, right, erm what it is, rub that off? Can I just, can I just erm that please, write it rather. Is that done at birth then that blood test, is the blood test done at birth? It's done at six days Excuse me Cathy, excuse me. The proper name for cretinism is hypothyroidism, which means hypo is not enough as in hypothermia, thyroid means thyroid, -ism, it's the three things they check for, can I pull that down? Yeah. Does, does anybody know what P K U is caused by? Don't know. Has anybody got any idea? No It's actually caused by an inability in the digestive system to break down an essential food that we eat, so there's one type of food that the body cannot use and this body, this, this component, this food substance turns to a, a poison and causes severe damage to the individual who's affected. Do you remember doing your, your di nutrition assignments last year? Yes And protein is made up of a number of what, can you remember? Amino acids Yes lovely, amino acids, right, it's one particular amino acid there are eight essential amino, amino acids and it's one of these and it's called venial alanine you don't have to remember that, it's very difficult to, to remember. The body cannot use it What was it? but it's essential to the body to have it The result is a what a rise in it or Right, this results in a rise A rise of the substance venial alanine it, the level rises up in the blood, it's a bit like overfilling a jug, if you have a quarter pint jug and you have a pint of milk, when you get to the top you don't stop pouring, it spills out the edge and in the body it actually goes into the body tissues, nowhere else to go and it causes a devastating result, it causes abnormal mental development, it causes gross retardation. It causes abnormal physical development, now you've all seen a Downs Syndrome person haven't you? Mm, mm And you know they have a very distinctive characteristic don't they, they have round faces and they're short and they have slightly slanting eyes, etcetera etcetera, well these children have very marked physical erm appearance they're fair haired and blue eyed the reason for that is that this substance venial alanine is responsible for the production of pigment, so if that's interfered with they're going to be fair haired and blue eyed, they get eczema a lot, they have small heads and they have very widely spaced teeth, sorry down a bit , is that what you want? No I thought you was you were reading them off as you No I'm not I'm just telling you Oh right so they, they, their physical appearance is very marked, they're fair haired, blue eyed erm they get ecz they have small heads and very widely spaced, spaced teeth, a bit like a cartoon and they have, they have general ill health, they're not very well people Oh excuse me. Now when they're born there won't be any problems at all and that's to do with the way they feed before they're born, how's a baby fed before it's born? From the placenta It gets all its nutrition, all its oxygen etcetera etcetera through the placenta from its mother's circulation and the mother has no problem whatsoever in her body functions, right, otherwise she would be a mongrel, so the food is going straight into the baby, it's like being drip fed, there's no problem. When the baby is born what is the baby fed on? Milk Milk, after the baby is born the first time the baby actually has to digest its own food it has to process the food that it takes in, what's in milk? What nutritional substance Calcium Calcium Calcium, protein Iron fat, right Fat? A lot of fat in milk so there's protein in milk and in protein you will find this amino acid that the baby can't metabolize, can't use. So it's only after several days that this will build up in the blood, does that make sense to you, do you realize now why tests is not done until six days? Yeah If you do it at birth you won't find anything wrong cos it hasn't had a chance to you do it after six days when the baby's been taking milk, you may well find something wrong. If the baby's fed on water or for some reason does not take food normally, you may not find the problem, but a few days after milk feed this substance will begin to rise and it can be protected so the diagnosis is made by a test, does anybody know how the Guffbry test is done? The heel Stab the heel and they drip the blood out onto a piece of blotting paper and it dries and they send it to the laboratory and they punch it out and they examine it and they test it. Right, so diagnosis, Guffbry blood test at six days when milk feeding is established. The incidence is one in ten thousand so it's pretty rare but untreated these children will grow up very seriously, mentally retarded, very, very poor quality of life and enormous stress on their families, when they could of been nearly normal, right so the cause is one of these essential amino acids which is powdered protein, so what's the treatment? Give them some Eh? Give it to them the amino acid Give it to them, give them what? Whatever it is that they're deficient in. If this, if this erm essential amino acid is found in all protein what foods do we have that have got protein in? Fish Fish Vegetables Dairy products Dairy products Eggs, dairy produce, meat, pulses, right. If everything you give them that's got protein in and it's going to make their condition worse, what, what have you got to do? Don't give Don't give them anything with protein in Right, no protein How they gonna grow? What do they do then? How they gonna grow? Yeah With great difficulty We've got a problem haven't we? Eh? The aim of the treatment is to keep the blood levels of this substance venial alanine as low as we possible can. And the treatment is very simple, it's by diet and if these children are given appropriate diet they will grow up entirely normal as intellectually able as anybody else. So the diet is to restrict the protein. There is a problem because this, this amino acid is essential and it's necessary for life, so you've actually got to have some of it, but if they have too much it will cause severe damage. So the diet is quite simple. When these babies are diagnosed there's a mad panic everywhere I can tell you, phone calls everywhere, people rushing round. Treatment has to be started as soon as possible, between two two e too much itl doolb eht peek ot si all?id Mm Doesn't their immune system cope with it or Sorry Sarah? Doesn't their immune system cope with it or not? Their immune system would be quite normal, right, if they're not given the protein, they're actually going to run into problems aren't they, but we have to overcome that by other, other ways. There's nothing wrong with their immune system, they're perfectly normal they just can't metabolize this one particular type of protein, so they have no milk, no fish, no meat, no cheese Oh very boring isn't it? They're allowed to have unlimited amounts of cornflour Urgh vegetables jelly and they have specially prepared flour, pasta, biscuits, bread and this is all erm provided on prescription. What would happen is the prescription would be written and they'd either get it from the chemist who would constantly have a stock coming in or the hospital. Jelly, urgh. Very costly business all this, but it's infinitely preferable than having a severely mentally retarded child. Do they survive for a long time? Yes, they will grow up, we will go onto this, they grow up totally normally, and when they stop growing, when do we stop growing? Twenty Sixteen to eighteen years, they can actually have a normal diet and they can begin to eat all these wonderful things, okay? So this has to be continued until maturity is reached, sixteen or seventeen years. It seems to be that only during the period of very rapid growth. So they go on like this till they get to late adolescence and then they can have a reasonably normal diet, having said that, they need constant monitoring and they would also be very used to a diet with not very much of milk, egg, fish and cheese etcetera. They wouldn't be able to have pulses either, just put that in there. Are, they healthy enough then? Are they happy? Healthy Healthy, oh yes, perfectly healthy. It would be very carefully calculated and they'd be given the right amount of the proteins that they could use to grow, because in the first years of life there's very rapid growth and development isn't there? Body repair, and then they're given minute mediastinal amounts of the essential amino acid which would otherwise poison them, they're given really tiny amounts of it to keep them healthy. Are there any questions about that? Cathy, Cathy if they got some disease like, I dunno something like I dunno cancer or something like that, would they be more ill than normal? Susceptible yeah Not necessarily, no. Just as ill as anybody else. In the past, in the past these children would be so severely mentally handicapped that they couldn't lead a normal life, but if, if your able to control this disease and bring them up intellectually normal so that they're like everybody else, they're going to have the same life expectation and hopes and aspirations as the best, that's the best of us, and what do women do when they get to the they have children don't they? Do you think that these women can actually have children? Yeah, but they might pass onto what they had to the child. That's a good question and that's quite interesting, yes, they can actually if a girl has this and she becomes pregnant she has to go back on to her low protein diet while she's pregnant in case her baby is affected right. What does that say? In female Normal life, I'll read out to you, normal life is possible if diet during childhood is adhered to, in the female, if the female suffers, when she becomes pregnant the protein intake has to be monitored so as not to affect her developing baby. Now in the past, any child with P K U would of grown up mentally handicapped and would not of reproduced itself, wouldn't have children. Today although there's still a problem area it's not a straightforward pregnancy today, the boys are able to father children and the girls are able to have children which means you're actually going to increase the incidence of P K U into the community isn't it? Alright? Does that make sense to you? Is it not erm, does the baby get all what that it should get from the mother? Is it hereditary Cathy? Yes it is, and underneath here I've actually written down, you alright? P, P K U is definitely an, an inherited genetic disorder, do you understand these charts? Have you seen these charts before? No No Right, not very complicated, mum, dad, right mum and dad have got a normal gene and a P K U gene, right, normal gene and P K U gene which means that they are carriers, they carry the disease but they don't actually have it That makes sense do you understand that? Right, who's got brown eyes here? Yes Who's got brown eyes but has got a mum or dad with blue eyes? Got one blue one and one green one. Right, okay, what we're saying here is that the mum and the dad are normal people, they don't have any problems, but they have got each of them have got abnormal gene and they're going to have a family, the first baby that they have gets two normal genes, one from each parent, you only get one gene from each parent, fuses so that makes two genes so the baby has two genes, right, the first baby gets two normal genes, right and that baby is normal, which is very clear right, so here we have written this baby is not P K U affected and is normal and doesn't actually carry the gene any more, does that make sense to you? Right, second baby has a P K U gene from his mum and a normal gene from his dad and he is not affected, but he is a P K U carrier, right, third baby gets a normal gene from his mum and a P K U gene from his dad and he's the same, or she's the same P K U carrier, but not affected, unfortunately the last baby gets a P K U gene from, from mum and a P K U gene from dad and this baby has got P K U and that is a simple, simple sort of exercise of how genetic disorders sometimes appear and sometimes don't Can I just write that yeah, you're not just gonna take that down? Does that make sense to you? Yeah Or is that just Ask her to start again So having four children, one of them will have P K U, but all the others won't, they will be normal. Yeah, but you can't say that because I know someone with six children and they've You're right Eileen it, you could have really bad luck and have all four children with P K U or you could have really good luck and none of them have P K U, or you could have half and half, that's just an example, with each successive pregnancy you stand a one in four chance, those are all the possibilities, but like throwing the dice it comes up at random. Is that it then Cathy? What do you mean is that it? We have a break now Oh fine, yes, then you go to is it isn't it, ten past, on Friday Ten past? I was going to do, I was going to do rhesus blood disease with you, but we'll do that on Friday. Shall I turn that off? Okay, well now er I er le tell you straight up? I do said this before hadn't I? Erm that erm about erm me father coming down from the top of the ah ah well, this was January the thirty first, nineteen hundred and sixteen and er me father had been up to look after the horses, pigs etc you know, and about eight o'clock he came back and said to my mother that there was a big fire out at Wensbury Me mother and all of us went up there, and er we could see these blazing buildings over there, and er mother immediately said that's no fire, that's the Zeppelin's, and er that's what it turned out to be, of course . So, course a bit later we all went off to bed and er well I, the next thing I remember were was er me father coming grabbing out to me and me brother, and chucking us more or less out of ou get off downstairs and get under the table! And er, as there were seven of us you can imagine that was a bit of a problem. But anyway, that's what we did. And er,we stopped there for some time and nothing happened and me dad says Gil! Go and put that lamp out in the street, cos there's one about fifty yards up the road. So now, of course, Gil immediately goes out, climbs up the lamp and just pulls the thing and it. Well, about, I don't know how long ago but we were stuck under the table for some time and er eventually we could hear this whirring noise like, you know and er I, I was a bit more daring than me brothers and I sneaked out and went out to the backdoor,an and looked up and there I could see this er Zeppelin in the sky, you know! And it, knew it was a Zeppelin because that was the only thing we knew heard of like, you know. And er, then all of a sudden I opened a sort of a door up in there, the light flashed down like somebody with a big torch you know. Course I immediately darted back in the house and told me dad and well, and er he says er, you can look out for some trouble then now like, you know and er,nothing happened. After a bit, me dad went out to see what was going on and all of a sudden there was such a crash, and erm then there was two more like, you know and er we heard what, what we assumed was somebody's house tumbling down but it was our stable unfortunately. They'd hit right on the corner of the stable and er me dad went to go out. Well, we thought he'd gone out, but apparently he must have got to the door just as the bomb landed, and the blast blew the door backwards, er the door inwards, knocked me dad backwards and at the back of him we had a cellar, but it went through this, the cellar door and although it turned round before it went down the cellar, he finished up down there because we didn't know this til after a while that me brother wou didn't offer to go out, so I went out think, to find where me dad was you see. And er, er, the next thing I remember was er, er being picked up by somebody off this pile of bricks and the doctor told me that it was a gas, some sort of gas has come out of it which had overpowered me like, you know. And er, Gas out of the bomb? Out of the bomb, yes. And er, of course, I, I'd soon all right like, you know but er, it was at, but of course me dad wasn't there. Of course I didn't know that cos I'd conked out with this gas you see. Apparently they either found me dad down the cellar or he recovered and come up the cellar like, you know. It hadn't really hurt him, only a number of bumps like, you know. Well, of course, when daylight came and I of course it was midnight see when that happened and early in the morning and er, oh there was a, crowds of people coming. Course we was feverishly trying to chip the bricks and things off the horse then how, what had happened because we'd got two stalls for them, and there was pigs in the one side and the horse in the other one, but of course when we eventually came to it, or they eventually came to the horse, he was dead, been killed standing up there like, you know and er, poor old pigs was all dead as well and as I said, about a hundred fell and two or three would been blown sky high. We never saw no more of them. But er I suppose in a lot of senses it could been worse. It could have been the house you see. And the funny thing was, it broke every window in the house except the ones nearest to it. And those remain just the same as they were before. But the frame I think was a bit dodgy but it, we, we never had to have anything done at it. So it showed the difference how they put them up then to what they put them up now . And, of course, the stables, that was all it, flattened down like, but that was only at the most twenty yards from the house. Them were more or less joined on you know. There was as shed in between but that's all. And, of course, the toilet used to be outside, that was quite all right , all those building. But erm, course, we er you didn't er think about that part of it then like, you know. Did your father receive any compensation of anything? No compensation, but I, I mean I'm talking about after government or anything like that. But the people were very good. I couldn't tell you what, but they collected quite a lot of money for us and er, and er, er, they were holding things there, er people were holding boxes at the bottom of the gate like and er Is it neighbours It, well, it ought, see there were so many people come to see it, but there was thousands you know, at different times like, you know. Oh yes, yes, perhaps and, and everybody would, would come up. I don't know how much they gave, but I do know that it, it, it came into a, a few hundred pounds which is a lot of money in those days you know, when you're talking about nineteen sixteen. But I can't remember what it was because obviously, at that age, you don't bother about money do you like, you know. But erm as I say, they did er, the people did but you never got nothing off the government for it and er,I've always said it, he must have been a much better man than I thought he was because er, er, to go as I say from what it was in those days to start his own business and that. And that he had that house built, er, like er, before he got in it and it was paid, built and paid for like, you know and that. I think, when I think it since, I think he must have been a remarkable man to work and slave like that. He was always at work, always Sunday. Now, cos I mean don't forget originally we used to take milk out twice a day, morning and night, because you had to fetch it from the farm. They got no coolers or anything like that, fridges, and nothing of that you know, and er, you'd got a, we used to fetch it in the morning and we used to supply Massey's Lavender's in and two other, two or three other little places. We had to make and we used to have to take this milk,I used to take it about five o'clock in the morning. And I, I had a little truck and run it down from down into . And er, were at Lavender's right. I used to take about, around about four, four to five gallons, which er, I could er, like erm, carry it down there like to them, you know and er, and then you got out Cos in the ori original days, when I first started as a kid with him, we used to have to take it out morning and night,people, mostly the factory owners and we, we had er, had er having twice a day. Well, of course, there was, they got no methods of keeping it you see. You were, you were at school presumably, erm at the time of the Zeppelin raid. Oh I, when I, when I went there the next morning I had to tell all in front of the class and tell all the kids. I did I, yes. Yes, I, I was in er, I'm not sure, I, I think I was in the top class in the junior school and er, without boasting, I was a good scholar and I eventually passed to go to the Q M and me dad couldn't afford to let me go. But er, I er, I, I went into from standard four in the junior school to form four in the senior which was standard six. I passed me own brother by in the process. And er, er, I was only in there one year and then I went into form five for three months and I, I went into the form six. I was in there nearly three years, or two and a half years anyway and, of course, I when I passed to go to the Q M of course , I, I used to do the Headmaster's and all that but they, they couldn't teach me any more because you, you can only have the same lessons as them that have been taught you know. But Can you remember any of the other things that were happening in, in the town at the time of the first world war Not er, no on, on that particular night that erm,tha that the air raid was. A man had a got killed, and there was a man named out at he lost one eye. I can tell you that he lived at number forty-one I think, yes forty- one if, if you know if you want any confirmation, that is correct. I, I mean I can tell you the names of the of all, everybody in them days, round the fleck area like, you know. But Do you remember anything called the tank bank Tank bank? The tank bank. No, I can't say. I seem to remember,i i i you know, you try to bri you brought something back into me mind through saying that but er I, I can't, I couldn't tell you nothing about it no no I couldn't tell you nothing about it. Do you remember of the territorials leaving at the beginning of the war? Well I, I didn't remember them no. I, I knew some of them but I didn't remember them leaving like. I ye you know being working with me dad on the milk round you didn't have chance to go anywhere an and that's perfectly true. I never had a holiday for about ten years. Not because I couldn't have had a holiday only that er we had loads of milk so we had to go and fetch it from the farms and you gotta have somebody to take it out. Well nobody wanted them jobs because it was a seven days' a week job. I used to work seven days' a week and I, I used to play football. I don't know how I got the time to play. I used to start me milkround on a Saturday morning at six o'clock and I'd be still running round at, at one o'clock and some of these, two o'clock sometimes, if it was bad weather. Some of these footballers now can't play when they're resting all the week. Er, no Would you say Ooh yes, definitely, definitely yes, I would say you, you know nobody ever expected they could get this far and I, I've heard people say this, you know. More, more recent than then, because as a kid they don't talk to you about them things do they like, you know. But erm, yes I've heard a lot of people say that er, they never thought they could get this far. And I mean these were sens people who I know like since, were sensible people like, you know. And er really er they themselves thought exactly the same like, but they were talking about other people telling them you know that they couldn't get this far but they did. I never expected them to, I'll tell you the truth, but then again at that age you don't think they ever will or it'll ever happen to you do you? Were there any air raid precautions that night at all? Any what? Air raid precautions. No, no. Not before the raid or afterwards? No, I don't ever remember any anyway No, I don't ever remember. I, as a matter of fact, I don't think there was any such things er thought of like, you know. But er, I never heard of them if they did and er,I mean I, I used to involve meself not in politics or anything like that is the last thing I ever thought of involving meself in but er, I did er, sort er, well being on the milk round you used to see the people in, because they come to door to bring a jug you see and you, you talk to people and you know they were, er were sensible and they were, were should I say soft or had no er conversation at all like, you know. But er, know I, I don't think I ever heard anybody think about it or say anything about a, an air raid like, you know. Because er as far as I'd concerned I'd never heard of air raids before hand you know, know I hadn't and I was, as I say, I was only nine and a half I know but er, I did use to speak to a lot more people than most, er lads of that age did like, you know. Cos I, I tell you, I used to go to Hunsdon fetch this milk of a morning and coming back, I'd empty the one can and I had a cal a, a gallon in each can an and er, the first erm, the first call coming back was at that big house on the corner of . I think it's called or something. Its on the left-hand side, and er some people named lived there. I used to leave two pints or three pints there depending what they wanted. Then he lived about half way and, and er, one or two more he lived at the top house on the right and somebody over the other side. I forgot their name. Well I'd emptied that one can. There was only eight pints in a gallon. and the other gallon. I used to come, and I used to go from there just past the top of there was two biggish houses erm who was it lived in the one some, somebody named and er and then there was er who was something to do at er on and somebody named who was, got a brewery at Dalston and, and they were ladies and proper genteel-type ladies at that. And, and whenever they knew you've come would you, would you walk through and, and they used to for us every time an tha and that in those days they'd give you a couple of bob which is, it was a fortune to me at that age. And er, then there was a fellow named and then which was works at Darleston and erm and erm nextdoor down, they got a factory at Dalston as well. And er, and that was, er go and did this before I went to school. Do you remember seeing any of the first world war soldiers about while you were working, on your travels coming home on leave or anything like that? No I can't er, I can't tell you that I did definitely, although I, I've heard a lot of them at times but er, I'm not sure. We always keep the home fires burning and them sort of things like, you know. The lads used to sing them like when er, but as I say, it wasn't anybody only just the kids round as we played about with you know. Because in them days er I, I think most of us had to, had to do some work. You didn't have time to er to go and er, and play too much. Well I, we didn't because me nor me brother and that. I'm afraid I was a bit tougher than me brother. I had to take his part although he was older than me. But er, I suppose I had a happy lif well I know I've had a happy life. I've enjoyed it, if, if it wasn't easy like, you know. Cos people often used to say to me because I'd, I'd played everything you could play except golf, and, and er, and I, I, people used to say you did two men's work and you I, I met a chap one day, this was an instance, I'm not trying to blow me trumpet don't think that at all. But er, I met a chap this one day, he says well I, I saw you this morning taking milk out, he says I saw you this afternoon taking coal out, he said I see you tonight going playing tennis. And it was true, I did and er, and I did reasonably well at most of the games that I play but er I played cricket for St John's and I played when I was in the army at this last time and er, and erm, you, you know it's I, I think if you make up your mind and you're fit enough. I, I'll put that first see, because I, I was always fit. I never know what it was to,not do anything, go, go to the doctor's and be bad or anything like that. The first thing I never went to the doctor with when I, I tumbled off the wall down cut me head open and that's the only, and then after I got used to playing football they must've, have put a steel inset into your head the way I head that ball. But did you play any games that were connected with the war in any way? No. Pretending to be soldiers or anything? No, I never saw lads er, er, the game that seemed most popular with us, I don't know whether you have, it's nothing only really hopping across the road. Lancashire they used to call it and, we used to, they used to set one on at first and then, as he knocked, if he could knock one off his feet onto his two feet, then he had to help him to knock the others over as they come in close and er, I know they don't sound nothing like, you know, now but er, in them days we use to think it was great. Only because it meant knocking the others over like, you know. But er, no I can't never, er, remember anything like that you know. Kids The summer time was introduced in the first world war, do you remember that Er, I can't say that I, I, I, I know they did do that yes, but I can't say that it er it interfered with us much and I can't er,ev ever think of anybody, you know wh sort of talking about it like in any respect. No I can't. Do you recall any types of food that were different difficult to obtain Well again you see, I, I, with us keeping our own pigs which we always did, we were always better off than anybody else and er we er, we, you see when we kept these pigs, we used to either buy or, or breed some young ones see. Well when they was feeding these up, you could have one for yourself as long as you let the government have one, see, and er, er, of course the next to feed a pig up, see, but er, I mean if you could fed them properly you could erm,perhaps get one ready in er, six to nine months you see, and er, which would be a, a good bacon pig like, if you fed it er, correctly. How heavy would that be? Well er, probably about er in them days they used to call them twelve score and then so it'd be twelve, two's or something that's two hundred forty pounds I suppose like, you know and er, but most of the people er. See a lot of people used to save us their peelings and bits like that. Well all these people, we would always let them ha when we killed one we would share it out amongst the people who had given them, like er, I don't say every time but occasionally we would do that and we'd let them have a piece of pork you see, which we could legally do see. This was during the war That's during the war yes and er, of course this is the first world war I were referring to and erm, the people appreciated this and we used to give it to them like you know. I mean some of them wanted to pay but I said no you helped us to feed them so, this, this were me dad's idea you see, he was always very fair-minded me dad was. But er,we did, and we, we, were thanked on a, in a numerous ways as well with people who was able to get things that we couldn't get like, and, and they give them us like, you know in return. Did a lot of people keep pigs during the war Well, no I don't say a lot, but more people than they did in peace days even then you know. They had, but they found it difficult because you'd gotta, gotta get a licence to keep them you see. You could keep them a as long as it was a reasonable way from the street as you might say and, and were fortunate because our pigstys had been built years before and they were ooh, suitably fifty to sixty yards from the main road you see, but I used to laugh at that when we, when we were having these pigs killed. You'd see all the kids there peering through the cracks in the, in the gate stand cos they used to squeal blue murder you know and er, I know it's er it's Who used to kill them? Pardon? Who used to kill them? Oh we had a butcher to kill, kill them. We, we always, we were lucky we ha knew a man named he lived on and he was a butcher in his rights, his own rights you know, just like and, and but er, me dad's brother or somebody knew him and, and he used to come and do it for us like, you know. And er, he was a good clean butcher, what I call a clean butcher, you know. I mean in, in he didn't leave it all over the yard and all that you know. It all washed down and that and we never had any trouble. Course the inspectors used to come and examine them you see er, like After they've been killed? After they'd been killed, yes. To make sure they were all right to eat them That's, that's it. Is that why they come? Yes , yes. They used to come and er, and they'd come and er, and, and sometimes they'd oh would want a, a little bit off there like, you know and I'd say oh well, the people who's helped us to feed them they're gonna have a bit like, you know. But er, I didn't believe in, well it was me dad's pigs of course, but I was there at the time as well like, you know. But How did you manage to keep the meat, erm, without refrigerators? Oh er, we'd got a cellar and it was a real good'un, you could er leave it down there, salt, salted you see. Oh yes. And er, not brine, salt. It's the same type of thing but it's Was it just ordinary salt? That's right. rubbed in or Yes, rubbed in, yes and er, er of course we'd do that with the hams and we'd do it with the shoulders of the bacon, cos And how long would it take Ooh twelve months like that, as long as you get it dried properly at first you see. And er, and, and yo you can do it to keep it. We did occasionally get the flies blowing them like, you know, but as long as you get it, got it in time and cut it down and cut it up straight away it was all right like. We never seemed to have much trouble anyway. We, as long as you could use the shoulders and the hams, the other part would be quite all right, oh yes, you got the bacon there hanging up sometimes longer than twelve months, mm. Come in very useful. Oh yes and er what I, I didn't I, say I told a lie. I didn't deliver, to tell a lie, but I did tell you a slight wrong thing. When I left school I wouldn't go on with me dad at first, I said I wanted to play football and me dad didn't want me to play football and he said you can't do a milkround and play football. Well I went and worked in a factory for about nine months I suppose, and the man himself, cos it was casting, brass castings, the man himself says, he says look son, this job's no good to you I'll tell you that. He says an which he says you've worked so hard, cos I worked for two casters which I shouldn't have done really, but that's how I were used to working you see and er, he said er, I said well me dad keeps asking me to go and work for him, and he said well I'll tell you what I'll do with you, he says you've worked so hard for us, this bloke came from Bloxford you know He says you've worked so hard for us, he said we'll agree to you going with your father, er for a month and see whether you like it, and if you don't like it, come back and we'll give you your job back. An it don't matter who we've set on we'll stop him. Cos, you used to work for the castronery had to pay you see, not the firm. You had to, we worked for the castronery at the back. They had to pay you see. What did you used to do? What was your job? You, well you, these and things see, they, they was all sort of er furniture particularly they used to make a lot of. And er, that was in very big demand in those days and of course us being the whatsernames, they, we used to have these things. Th there was sort of decorations on the saddles and things like that you know, and er, er, they had this firm and it was up of course, well, and it, to tell how far it was I had to be in by seven o'clock and I used to run it all the way. Not because I was made to be late, but I, I, I, I'd, me mother had made me cos she said you gotta come home to your dinner and there was no buses there were trams in them days, but I'd got to get into the town. I could, I used to run it down and er, and that's the only reason me mother would let me, but they was pleased as punch when I stopped and went and worked for me dad again. Well again, I, I, I had to do it as a kid but I didn't afterwards but er, I er, tell you about this chap and I even went back and told him. I says I'm gonna stop with me father and they said well, we're sorry to lose you but we know this trade's know good to you and we hope that you'll stay with your dad and, well I did, I stayed with me dad until, as I say after I come out of the army and they wouldn't let me increase me coal trade. And How many customers did your dad have? Oh I er, I dunno there was, course there was m there was me, me dad, me brother and meself er oh I suppose it's hard to say. Well I used to serve about I used to serve close on 200. What did you used to take the milk out in? Was it horse and cart? Yes, yes, horse and cart, yes, and er, and me brother course we had er bought another horse by then. Me brother used to go, he used to do erm er this street, funnily enough I used to do ,,, and And er, I done down I served nearly every house an and down the side streets. Me brother served here,,and just round there and erm, then he used to do erm, up Wood Green an an and we used to serve down er We was only milk people who went down. There weren't many houses, but there was a few when you got to the bottom, see. Er when I say a few, about twenty perhaps, thirty, and er, of course, it was then me brother got the order for the canteen as well see. So it was quite er, a bit to do like, you know. But he didn't do quite as much as me I don't think like. Did you have to fetch the milk fresh each morning? Oh yes, but it wa was down er ha had it from until they had to close down. That's er, where is now. All there. And there was er, he, he, used to have some fields up Wood Green as, as well that he turned the cattle into. Those over, still over the bridge like now, you know and er, where the brook comes through, but of course there was no, er, there was no houses at the back end you see, it went right few changes round here then? Ooh gosh and me dad yes, he used to do er, er, er, just a, he didn't do, do too many but he, he had, like a sort of a push truck like, you know and he has to go up and that, that only round not too far and he, he like to do it I think more. We could've done it really, but it kept him in with the people like and er. Course he, he used to know a lot of them round there, because there was more houses at the top of than there is now and all round there you know. Quite a few old ones up there there was, even up on the left-hand side. Er I would say, about eighteen to twenty close up to the top. Cos they were all small ones you know, like some up Dalston. I mean there was houses in the street and there was like these courtyards at the back of them. That's right. You know you wouldn't know there was houses there if you didn't go up there and see mm. Was the football ground The what? The football ground oh yes. I played on there a good many times. Yes, oh that was there mm. But er yes there, there was er,th that was,wa was the football club was there all along like, you know There used to be, that one what's still on, on but that used to belong to the L N S then, they had er, a good football team. Some of me lads, as I told you, as well they went to play for them like, you know. When they got a bit older. But er What was like in those days? er, it, it, it's er, it more or less finished, er when you went over the bridge like. There wasn't a broadway of course, you must remember this before I tell you see. Er there was down , and, and, farm was on the right and it went the back where old is around there. That was all his fields you see. And of course was a very prominent ma er the chemical people, that was the hunt he was concerned with with it. And er, he erm he, he was quite all right. He was the sort of, liked to be looked upon as the local squire. I mean if he saw me or anybody who he knew, hello young that sort of thing like, you know. And I always remember me and me sister, Sylvia,sh they're all dead except me now so, er seven of us like, you know. And er, a lot of them were younger than me, but I don't know why but I've lasted lo But anyway,m me and me sister we always used to, we'd say to me dad when we went to fetch the milk with me dad. Course we were only kids ourselves like, you know. So shall we go and sing a carol? So we went this one Christmas I'll always remember it. And er, dad was at the farm and we, there were ba paths that went up to the house see. So we went, which was the backdoor to Started onc singing Once In Royal David's City you know, cos I knew he, he liked that. And er,he come to the door. Can't you read! Yes Well why are you singing carols? Well it doesn't say anything about singing carols. It does on the front door he said. I says well we haven't come by the front door, which we hadn't of course. We'd gone round that back door. He opened his and gave us a couple of bob. Anyway, I always remember another one at the same time, that same Christmas. We, we went up to erm top of And er, we, we earned mo more money in carol singing we had in anything else. And er, we went there and knocked the door. We started singing a carol. Er what the dickens did we sing, The First Noel I think. Well we finished that and the door opened and er Do you know Once In Royal David's City? And I said oh yes Mr I said know all the carols. Me an me sister, we thought we were then he says come inside and sing it for our, somebody, you know. I don't know what his name was, but I was only a little kid like, you know We, we sung that He give us half a crown each,He said do you know on, on the I said oh yes. He said would, would you put this card through the door for us. We've, we've forgot to send them a card. So it give us another shilling each. I mean,it it, you know us kids, I mean this was a fortune to us, but I, I don't mind telling you me dad had it off of us when we got home. Says that's gotta go in your box. You said wasn't cut through. Oh no. That's right What was there then? It, it was just fields. Was it? That was were they use t and, and it had turned off down er, down where it is now er, down there. We used to serve all those houses down the bottom there, round there. Wel and there was more than there is now like. And er, er, then t to the brook where he, it is now. You,th cos the railway men used to make the path, cos the terrific amount of railway men used to work down at and most of our round consisted of railway people and most of them had come up from Wales and places like that. But anyway, er, you was saying er,th there then was a path which went eventually up to erm, the Boar's Head on, on, the and there was a path across those fields all the way, a walk up there. We used to go and walk round there a So you could walk from right round Yes, right to, to and, and you could even go on farther, but I don't think I ever went any further I didn't have time. But yes, that was what,wh what it was. And they were all open fields across there? Yes, and, and this path was at the side of the fields like, you know, that, went just on the edge like, you know. They ne they didn't, nobody used to, well as far I knew, nobody ever caused trouble in the kids in, like in, on those sort of things. I could do me own wack of er, playing about like, you know. Like tying a bottle on the door and sticking it on the window and knock the door and they had to come, crash the bottle would go. Used to think that was a glorious But er, not what they do now like, you know. I mean, like some of the kids do now, I think it's terrible, you know. But er, yes that was, that wa tha tha that finished there like er that was the finish of the, of all the traffic there until th Course you can't visualise it now without being broadway. But erm What was the bridge like itself? Well,it, it, it looked very similar, not quite as good as it is now but er, it wasn't no where near as wide of course. It, it was like on only the one half roughly about what the bridge is. But it was in reasonable condition like, you know. But certainly not good condition cos it wasn't used by much, of course being a dead end see. Mm. What about the centre of the itself? What was that like in those days? It, ooh yes, it was quite busy, it definitely was busy, and, but er,it, it, it was in very similar in what it is now, but the shops were all different like, you know. I mean they, people er, the hairdresser's for instance, they seemed to be there for evermore at the far end, towards I mean er, er, and then there was half way along on the other side and What sort of shop was that? They were both hairdressers those were. One men's and one women's? No, they were a both men's. I don't think women had their hair done then, did they? Not that I can er, remember. The, the first ladies' hairdresser's was some where up where there is one now, where and whatsername is now I think erm I do whatsername, towards like, you know. Er cos his mother lives down now I think, yes. Well,tha that was the,th th the first ladies' hairdresser's as I can ever remember. Was there a shop There was a, a toba a tobacconist on the corner of erm, of itself, like. A, a pretty big one. A chap named, ooh, Harry , he used to keep it for a long while, and er then of course,th the post office was on the er, opposite side of the road to where it is now. That was about the, I would think the fourth shop from er, sommat like that. Because er, I used to serve them with coal and Miss her name was and er er th there was erm a sweet shop about tow by that fish shop which was er, er a fish shop even in those days, fish and chip shop even in those days. I'm talking about opposite what they call you know. And er, there was a bloke I used to play football. I, I don't think he played for Walsall, but he played for Bloxford Strollers. He, he was quite a decent footballer, quite a nice chap really. And er then there was a, a fella named he used to keep the sweet shop and it was a, a sort of a high-class sweets like, you know. They used to, it were very nice shop in those days and er then of course the next door to that fish shop, the other half going towards was . These people who lived in ,ha they had a shop in as well. They had like well for the sake of saying, pigeon co for food and even poultry food like, you know, such as er, well they used to call it Sharp's and mix it up like into a mash, you know. But er, that was there though, with their affairs. Then was next to them. Then there was a, the paper shop where, somewhere near where it still is now. And er ooh what was the name, there was a grocery shop and then there was a, a confectioner's right on the corner of erm er is it called, that leads off in, into It only, only a short street, there's no houses in it actually. Well, that was then, that was another confectionery er, place like. When I say confectionery, cakes and things like that, you know. Oh there was quite a few and then on the other side there was er, the old reading room where the erm er, building society is it now, what's there? And oh, on the corner of there was er, er ti whatsername er what do you call them these things what sell curtains and stuff like that? Drapers. Drapers and things like that. Oh that was there for years, donkey's years when, I can remember when I was at school, going to school and it was still there quite a number of years after I left school. Oh that's all right. Oh yeah and this chap inherited the money off his mother and father and er, I don't know whether he drunk it or whether he gambled it away, but he lost the business so that, and that was the beginning of the breaking up in my er opinion of the fleck shops like, you know. Do you remember the trams going down? Oh yes I wa as kids er, I used to, I could always get in with the, the conductresses. I, I of course, I suppose going round with milk I'd perhaps got more confidence th cos I had to take milk whether I wanted to or not, see and we if we got down there and there was two or three of the conductresses down the fleck and er, jump on a Dalston bus cos I'd got to get to like, you know. So er, you, you can ring the bell for the custom er, people to get off and on like, you know. And I had but I was soon off when I got at well just past there to pull up there. But you could jump off them while they were going, so I,an very slowly, did they? Well, not too slowly no, but er, they er, they er kept on going like there was a continuous flow of them, you know, all the while. Aye, they seemed to be following one another up the road. But of course nobody had cars you see, in them days. That's what you've got to think of. And er,we oh usually I could get on there for a, you, you can get erm I think it was a four-way ticket for threepence down the town. I don't know whether it was a return, I forgot that but er, it, it was, it was four for four rides for threepence and er,that's if you're down the town you know, that's quite a few really, for threepence. And er, er,an an and as I say I had, like, this was only coming home from school like, you know. But,a another one they used to call a fatty I can remember that even now. She was very pleasant as a matter of fact. But, cos I knew a lot of the dra the drivers because er, they were local people like, you know. One or two lived, even the top of on the other side of the road, houses are down now but, er, there was, there was three cot which we call cottages which er, much smaller than the others, but they were still very useful and nextdoor to there there used to be a, a chap named, oh nextdoor but two. There used to be a chap named They used to work on th on the trams, and they used to, used to seem to work in families like, you know. They had er, perhaps two men'd on the, the trams and sons'd follow them like you know. Ah, then they er, these sort of jobs seem to run in families. But er ah yes, as I say, there was some happy times and there was some tearful times no doubt. Can you pass them round please, one between two. We're doing that. O K. What I propose to do is I'm going to read this poem aloud and then we discuss it as a group . So I'll introduce this poem to you and we'll read it aloud. Then we will discuss it er via the questions. So we don't want more than one person speaking at once otherwise it won't be clear, the tape recording, O K. This is by Ted Hughes, The Thought Fox. I imagine this midnight moment's forest. Something else is alive beside the clock's loneliness and this blank page where my fingers move. Through the window I see no star. Something more near though deeper within darkness is entering the loneliness. Cold, delicately as the dark snow, a fox's nose touches twig, leaf. Two eyes serve a movement that now and again now and now and now sets neat prints into the snow between trees and warily allaying shadows shadow lies by a stump in a hollow of a body that is bold to come across clearings, an eye, a widening, deepening greenness brilliantly concentratedly coming about its own business till with a sudden sharp hot stink of fox, it enters the dark hole of the head. The window is starless still, the clock ticks the page is printed. Now what I want us to do is to look at these questions er because we're being tape recorded, I am not going to give you time to work on a questions . individually because . a small group discussion wouldn't come out. Erm but we'll do the questions together as a class and I would like you to just speak one at a time, otherwise it will all get blurry. We'll take it a bit gradually to begin with. So the first question is, where do you imagine the poet to be at the beginning of the poem. Whose going to answer that? who can answer that. Dead silence Michelle where do you think the poet is? Looking through a window. He's looking through a window, erm any advance on that? Lee, no, Elizabeth? In his room writing. In his room writing, yes. Erm, what time of day do you think it is? Night Night time, at night. What else is in the room? Clock. A clock, erm A page. A page a what? plain a piece of paper. plain a piece of paper, yes. Anybody else in the room? No . No O K. So he's on his own in the room at night, erm and what do you think is outside the window? A fox. A fox, a forest. . No stars. Erm so you think it's in the countryside anyway? It doesn't have to be. It doesn't have to be, why doesn't it have to be? Go on, you might be right, go on. Well it just doesn't have to be. So you think it could be in the middle of London? . Yeah you get urban foxes. you get still times in cities and stuff when it's quiet A bit louder actually when you're speaking. Might not pick up they probably want to analyse our English or something to see how it's . Erm so erm yes it was does . I think you're making a valid point here. Well it could all just be his imagination as well. Yes. Yeah. Yes. It doesn't have to be. It doesn't have to be a fox out there, it doesn't have to be a forest. Doesn't have to be in the countryside. like his memory or his imagination that's alive. wasn't . Yes, that's quite nice. So it's dreamlike what do you mean by that. What's he doing then? Well it's not very clear whether he's actually thinking or seeing it. It's not clear whether he's actually thinking about a fox or seeing a fox or so, yes. Good, you're getting on to good ideas now. Erm, in fact Ted Hughes I think has largely lived in the countryside so it is quite likely that his house in which he sets this poem is in the countryside. At one time he lived in Devon I think and he also has association with Yorkshire, so that is could be quite probably in the countryside but it doesn't have to be a forest, doesn't have to be a fox out there but he does actually say I imagine this midnight moment's forest. Erm, is there any other reason in the poem and I'm going away from questions now but is there any other reason in the poem why erm why it, why he wouldn't see a forest or a fox out of the window? Any reason given in the first couple of stanzas. it's dark, there's no clouds in the, it's cloudy, there's no stars, so you wouldn't be able to see anything anyway. So it's too dark to see anything at all in fact. Through the window I see no star and he talks about the darkness, yes, good. So if the forest is not something that he can see, if you go back to question two, how do you interpret this midnight moment's forest? What do you think he means by that in the first line? Could it be like just he has his eyes shut, he wants to going on in his head. imagines a forest you think and of course there are real forests out there somewhere aren't there? Isn't it I imagine this midnight moment's forest? Yes, so. that says it all doesn't it? that's what? That says it all. He imagined the forest, Yes. yes. So there's a real forest out there somewhere but perhaps, perhaps not just outside his window, perhaps ten miles away, you know. Erm and he's imagining what's going on in it. In fact it could be very significant that the first words of the poem are, I imagine, because what does the poet, what do any of us do, we sit down to write something. We imagine, don't we? You write an essay, you imagine in your head what you might be going to put in your essay. Means you conjure up in your head. So that's the starting point. Erm, now we've got quite a lot out of that opening, so let's look at the rest of the first stanza. Something else is alive beside the clock's loneliness and this blank page where my fingers move. Erm and he goes on to describe it as something more near. Now I I'm asking you a question too. What do you think the something is? This is something else, that is alive and I've suggested at least two answers are possible. Erm Martin, what would you say something else alive is? Erm fox innit. You're, you're very sure of it when you say fox innit. . So where is this fox? Well it's outside isn't it. it's either in his imagination or he can see it. We've decided he can't see because it's dark. . But you can see the eyes twinkling in the dark. Yeah. You wouldn't be able to if they were . It is a fox. I . called a thought fox it's called imagination I think it is a fox . . Yeah. The fox is what? The fox is him and the forest is like his life and everything going on around him. It's part of his consciousness, yes, that's a nice idea. So if something else is alive, it's like in his imagination. Yeah. Yes and what did he say . Probably just saw a shadow or something. More like the shadow of his thoughts or something Yes. So it 's he could be deliberately trying to write about his life and that's the way he sees it as a fox. No as him being really isolated, you know, in a dark forest or whatever, I don't know. Yes. So the fox could be an image of himself. So I've suggested there are at least two answers possible for something else is alive. Erm, Martin says it's a real fox out there. Well it could be a real fox, when in fact if there is a forest out of his window at all, . he wouldn't have to see it, he could just know it's there but then why does he say, I imagine it . He doesn't. Well if he knows it's there he can still imagine it but he ca you can know that Yeah he could. things are actually outside but you can still imagine them in your mind if you can't see them but but then again if it's dark you're not going to be able to see those light footprints and whatever appearing and stuff sh . So all that is imagining, isn't it? It's gotta be, if he said it's dark. Yes. something . Well he doesn't even need to say anything at all actually you could just sit down, erm and start to write a poem about what he imagines. Erm, I mean there's a forest outside our window but it's not visible is it? There's a forest fifty miles off, it's outside our window because it's not in this room and to come a little nearer home ther there's a campus outside our window but we can't exactly see very much of it but we know it's there and it's got some birds in it, it's probably got some little insects in it and there's a woodpecker Squirrels. in it isn't there? Squirrels, erm so we can't see any of those things but we can imagine them, can't we? You can imagine the squirrels running up and down the trees without seeing them, so something else is alive. Yes there is something outside his window, however near or far and it is alive but he doesn't have to be seeing it and on the other hand something is alive in the room because actually if you look at the context of that, something else is alive beside the clock's loneliness and the blank page where my fingers move. If you confine yourself to inside the room where he's sitting very quiet and the only other . noise is the clock ticking. What else is alive there, in that room which he's saying? The darkness. The darkness his imagination's alive. Mm. And what's his imagination going to be doing? Creating the image of a fox. Creating the image of a fox, yes and writing a poem. So . if you like the germ of the idea of the poem is alive in his mind because he sits down at the page thinking I'm going to write a poem. What is it going to be about? Maybe it's going to be about a fox. . It can also be like reference to erm the poem coming alive Yes. as he's writing it Do you want to tell me more about that? Well just that the words go down on paper, they seem to come alive within his imagination and around the room. They move round the room. Erm do you know like sometimes on telly they do it. Well he has someone saying that describing away and they say right they and just like jump off the page and start moving round the room . I think this is the idea of the poem though actually when you get to the end of the poem this is what it's about so it's a good idea . So I think there's something that is alive, yes, although in, er on one level it is a fox or some other creature outside there. It's his imagination and it's the poem that's coming alive. Is that what you meant Lucy? Yes. The poem's coming alive, yes. . That's right, yes and actually I'll digress to tell you ssh that erm this poem is published in a book by Ted Hughes a book called Poetry in the Making and it comes from a chapter called Capturing Animals. Now in this chapter, Capturing Animals he says that when he was young, before he ever started writing poems, he used to like animals, he used to like them dead as well as alive . Yeah. Sh and he says ssh and he says that he used to used to trap them. He used to trap animals and collect them and then one day instead of going out trapping animals he wrote this poem instead and ever afterwards he wrote poems instead of collecting animals. trap them. So he suddenly found that he preferred to write poems but what he's actually saying in that essay, is that he thinks poems are living things, just as animals are and that they're they're difficult to catch. I mean what's what's the similarity between trying to catch a fox and trying to write a poem? If you're going to sum it up in one word? How easy is it to catch a fox? It's not easy but that's because the fox is not supposed to be captured. No, it's not easy to catch a fox is it? Why aren't they supposed to be captured? They're sly. They're sly. They're wild. They're wild, aren't they? So they don't come along and say, please catch me, and if you were trying to if you were trying to find a fox or a badger, what would be the- what would be the difficulty? They'd be hiding down their hole. They'd be hiding down their hole, wouldn't they? Or in the darkness somewhere. So they're what you call elusive, aren't they? And capturing wild animals is difficult because they're elusive. I think he's got a whole metaphor going in this poem between wild animals and things that exist freely and are difficult to find and poems which are things that exist and have their own life but they are also difficult to find. In what sense, are poems elusive? Elusive? If you are trying to write one. Only the right words to express the way you're feeling. So it's difficult to put them down on paper? Yes, cos like feelings and thoughts are hard to capture they're intricate and get them down As Woolf said. When they were looking at Woolf, erm wh the other group's a bit further on with Wolves than than you are but we were doing this morning about how Lily has difficulty painting her picture and erm Virginia Woolf says in her diary, I assure you all my novels are first rate before they were written. It was actually writing them that was the difficulty. I could see them, they were brilliant works of art in my imagination. So poems are elusive because you get the idea that actually working out your idea so it comes down on paper and it looks like a good poem and it says what you want to say and it doesn't spoil the effect etcetera so you've really captured your poem. Erm it's difficult isn't it? I think that's what it means. That poems are alive but they run away from you, you know and you have difficulty catching them like you have difficulty catching foxes. Anyway let's get back to the poem. So we've discovered quite a lot about it all really but erm in the second stanza he says,through the window I see no star. Something more near though deeper within the darkness is entering the loneliness . So Lucy what do you think is entering the loneliness? At this point on your interpretation. Erm just like the the images, rather than it just all like being in his imagination I think it all coming to life around him. The images that he's going to use come to life. Is that what writing a poem is partly? Of the ideas coming alive for you? depends what sort of poem it is, this is a very sort of image probing, sort of poem. Yes. Not all of them are. This is more like, he's trying to describe a scene to you or pictures to you, whether, whereas you can get poems that are just like emotional poems. . Well that depends. Yes. What sort of poem is Yes. But I think in this one that's the idea of that. To express a picture or an image that he's got. Yes. Do the rest of you agree with that? He's making you a visual image of the fox, isn't he? Only in the end it isn't an ordinary fox, it's a thought fox. We'll have to see what that means in a minute. Erm, have a look at the punctuation before we go on. How many full stops are there in this poem? and where are they? three and where are they? one's in the first stanza and one in the last one. Yes. Where is the other one then? One's in the first stanza and there's two in the last one. Yeah. So is that odd? You've got the first stanza which is four lines, has got five lines has four lines can't see straight the first stanza has one sentence and it ends at the end of the stanza but then you have one, two, three, four, five more stanzas and you don't get a full stop until the last stanza half way through. You have, you had twenty two lines or is it, I can't add up today. You had eighteen lines. . You have eighteen lines without a full stop. So you get a full stop at the end of four lines. You get one after another eighteen lines and then one after another two. Now is that odd? yes. What would you expect in a poem Lucy then? Dunno, it just doesn't seem to be much erm pattern So is there some reason, do you think, why you've got eighteen lines and no full stop? What's he what's he describing in those eighteen lines? Somebody can do poem please. Er the fox. Yes. Maybe he just didn't like full stops I don't think that's the answer I don't mean like that. I mean like, you know, maybe you just didn't . Maybe it breaks up things. when you're thinking about things, it all just comes quickly . Now you can say it again more clearly please When you're thinking, right, things come into your mind . Erm, like they come really fast so you like just jot them down quickly erm without full stops Yes I think, I think the absence of the full stop is done on purpose but I think the kind of things you were suggesting, the reasons behind it. He's trying to say how to show how ideas come into your mind in a great rush and to co to convey their spontaneity. Erm and what is it that's come into his mind in a great rush in this part of the poem . This image of a fox because it's erm moving so fast it's like really rapid Yes. and his own sort of vision of it as a creature. It's moving quite fast Yes. and he wants to keep it going it. Without breaking it, yes. So it's in fact in those eighteen lines that he describes the fox and brings it to life in the poem. In the images of the poem and he describes the fox as moving doesn't he. Stanza three, the fox's nose touch twig leaf and its footprints are set into the snow. It's actually walking. So although he can't see this fox. Although it's perhaps a totally imaginary fox, he's imagining the fox walking through the wood and coming towards his window. Coming towards his house and he describes it in stages, bringing it to life all the time. So it's a sense of continuous development, evolution of the animal which is, he wants continuity and that's why he hasn't put a full stop in. Also if you look at the way that the fox is described. What is the first thing we're told about it in the third stanza? Its nose. Its nose? The fox's Its nose, yes. Yeah. Now is it appropriate that we start with its nose? Yeah, be like the first thing er that it sees that you see. First thing that you see. Well it's the first thing that comes. .. So if they ever get, this is erm a line and the fox is walking along, the first thing that's gonna pass this light will be its nose. That's right. See what I mean. Yeah, that's right. So it it precedes the rest of it if you are looking at the front of the fox it's erm why is a nose important to a wild animal? Sense of smell. Sense of smell. So if that and what I'm trying to say Lucy is I'm asking you serious questions. It's how the fox is being brought to life in the poem. A sense of smell is the first and primary thing for the animal because it gives it its sense of direction and it's very important and it goes gently cold, delicately as the dark snow. It's moving very carefully because it doesn't want to be detected. Now what's the next thing we get after the nose? the eyes The eyes. And that's appropriate too, isn't it? Because if you are actually thinking of it coming towards you head on . then the eyes would be something you'd also confront at the beginning but they're equally important for the fox actually walking aren't they? Its nose, its eyes are the things with which it guides itself and then the walking is described, the footprints. So the whole thing is coming to life a bit. Yeah the detail's coming to life As though you were doing a sketch and you were sketching details in gradually. Lucy what were you going to say? In the third stanza why is there all those that now and again, now and now, and now That is what I was going to ask you Alright, let's look at this now. Just read this bit over again. Two eyes serve a movement that now and again now and now and now sets neat prints into the snow between trees . What does it stand for? fox. can't hear that The actual movement of the fox. stopping and starting. So you can imagine it more yourself. It's actually approaching you Yeah. isn't it? Yes and also it's, it's one paw after another. The footprints, now and now and now and maybe not continuously as you were saying. Erm so the repetition is like the repetition of the prints in the snow. Erm, so it's a way of bringing it alive. It's almost mesmeric as well isn't it, this repetition of now, now, now between between the but as as you were saying, it's sketching all the details in so you, if you were sketching a fox, you know you begin somewhere and say you begin with the nose you've just got a little detail the nose and the eyes but eventually you've got to put the whole sketch in. But it's not very delicate movement like a fox, it's more sort of jerky. Well maybe that was the way I read it. Maybe it could be read more delicately. I mean it's not very graceful. It's not the image I would think of . Foxes are . . . foxes are I mean it's very erm harmonious sort of walk. gliding Well perhaps it could be read in more gliding fashion now you see this punctuation thing here. Erm, not only have you got no full stops but in this stanza when he's talking about the fox moving you've got no commas at the end of the lines. Now what do you call that? Anybody talk to you about that? What do you call it when you don't have punctuation at the end of a line? . Nobody knows? Well you call it a run-on line and you call it an enjambement line to give it the French term. What's the difference when you have a line that doesn't stop at the end of the line? we need . So it creates continuity in flow, doesn't it? and because he hasn't got any full stops you see. He doesn't even stop at the end of the stanza. Stanza three and now, runs immediately into stanza four. Set neat prints into the snow and the same with stanza four, are the body that is bold to come across clearings. You can't stop between the stanzas, can you? It's less usual to enjambe stanzas than it is to enjambe lines and it creates this continuous flow. This speed that talking about but I think it corresponds to the movement of the fox. The sense that it is all, with a kind of inevitability coming alive. More involved vividly so, so again I think this punctuation is done deliberately to make it merge continuously . After the footprints, what do you then get in the description? Erm, Laura, what comes after the footprints? Erm the shadow. Shadow of the body. Yes, now this shows it must be his imagination, mustn't it? Because at night with no stars and moon couldn't be any shadows, could there? So why does he call it a shadow then? Because it's sort of dark, his just to . . It's not tangible. It's not tangible. . Lucy. Any other reasons why it's a shadow? Well it's shy isn't it, so it's got to try to keep away. It's trying not to be seen in fact. But nevertheless it's bold in its way. The body bold to come across the clearings and at last the the fox is really there. It's not just its nose, it's not just its footprints. You can see the footprints without seeing the fox, can't you? But there is the whole body in the clearing, the eye, a widening deepening greeness. So you've really confronted him now Is that still about the fox. Well what else would it be, do you think? Well it's just that I may be totally wrong but I just read it first when you read it first it's like its prey in the light if you see what I mean. Now we've just heard about the fox and it's coming across into the clearing, then an eye widening deepening greenness and talks about it coming about his own business till a sudden sharp hot stink of fox enters the dark hole of the head. So what which . it's like Sorry. I was just envisaging it being like a rabbit or something. Yes I see how you get the idea but what do the rest of you think of it? Well you don't think of it obviously. not quite finished. Erm I suggest that it is the fox because we're told it has a sudden sharp hot stink the fox. So it's all part of the same sentence that makes it come into the head at that point. Now if the fox enters a hole but the hole that he enters is the head so what does that tell us about this fox? It's an imaginary It's an imaginary It's an imaginary fox, yes and so when at the very end of the poem he says when he says the window is starless still the clock ticks the page is printed. What's happened, what does he mean? thoughts have stopped wandering Thoughts stop wandering. What's finished though? The poem. . The poem, yes. So he's done a kind of conjuring trick here. He's written you a poem in which you might well think he was describing a fox outside his window but just at the point when the fox seems most real, it might be coming through the window or it might be going into its hole, he says that the hole that this fox lives in is his head. It's an imaginary fox and he suddenly says, I've finished describing now, here's your poem. The poem is what he was imagining. So it's this idea of capturing animals, a poem is like a wild animal and if you really conjure it up carefully. Its a, during the course of the time of the crucifixion, Jesus is on the cross and its says there, there were two others also who were criminals, were being lead away to be put to death with Jesus and they came to the place called The Skull, there they crucified him and the criminals one on the right and the other on the left, but Jesus was saying father forgive them for they do not know what they are doing, and they cast locks divided up his garments among themselves and the people stood by and looking on and even the rulers was sneering at him excuse me, and even the rulers were sneering at him saying he saved others, let him save himself if this is the Christ of god, his chosen one, and the soldiers also mocked him, coming up to him offering sour wine and saying if your the king of the Jews save yourself now there was also an inscription above him, this is the kind of the Jews, and one of the criminals who was hanged there was hurling abut at him and saying you are not the Christ, save yourself and us, but the other answered and rebuking him said do you not even fear god, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation and we indeed justly for we are receiving what we deserve for our deeds, but this man has done nothing wrong and he was say , and he was saying Jesus remember me when you come in your kingdom, Jesus said to him truly I say to you today you shall be with me in paradise I wonder if you've ever been in that awful position of facing of what you thought was certain death perhaps you were seriously ill and er, there seemed little hope of your recovery, perhaps you were facing some danger, some, some risk and it seemed almost certain that short of a miracle you were gonna die, I wonder what sort of thoughts would have been going through your mind, maybe w , may well be that you were with other people, I wonder what sort of things if you were in a condition of speaking, what sort of things you would of been saying to them. Now I suppose for most of us because of the very fact were here this morning they have been few and far between such experiences, perhaps what is more common is that we may have spent time with someone who was dying, their last few hours, their last few minutes, and if they were not unconscious I wonder what sort of conversation would be going on between us and them, what sort of things would we, would we of been saying, what would we be asking us, well in this passage that we have been reading we have just such a conversation, two men who are on the verge of death, death can only be hours away for both of them, and here they have this conversation, it was in that sense it was one of the strangest interviews any body ever had with Jesus not only is the, the account here of er a death bed conversion, but the one who is saving is also in the process of dying. Jesus had had many interviews with people, we've looked at some of them over these past few weeks, the time when he met with Nicademus, the religious leader, the time he went out of his way to meet with a woman of Semaria in her dyer need, the other occasion that we looked at er a week or so back when he called Anzakias from that tree of which he was hiding, last week his judge, pilot, but of all those interviews and as many others that we haven't looked at this surely must be one of the strangest as Jesus himself is in the process of dying and as he is dying he is confronted with another person who has a need, but Jesus your need is as greatest as any body elses, your pain, your suffering, your physical suffering was every bit of great as those around you, why be bothered with others isn't that so often our story, when we are in need we can forget all about other people, it doesn't matter there need, its poor me, what about me, what about my need, what about my requirements, what about my suffering, but we see here how Jesus apart from any thing else deals with his own suffering, he deals with it by ministering to the needs of other people, and this surely then must be one of the most strange and one of the most interviews that our lord ever had when he was here on earth, with this dying thief, but he was more than a thief he was a er, he was a re a rebel, he was a terrorist or a freedom fighter depending on which way you wanted to look at it and he was dying for his crimes and he wasn't alone because there there was this man we've been talking about, there was Jesus and there was another one, another criminal on the other side and we find that this is all in keeping with what god had promised, all there in, in line with his prophecy way back in Iziah chapter fifty three, it tells us that he was numbered with the transgressors, that he died with sinful men with, with law breakers and here it is its happening right in front of the, the very eyes of the Jewish leaders and the jewish authorities our lords intention in coming into the world was to save men and women, to seek out and to save sinners, remember thirty odd years previous to this event the word had come, for Mary his mother, to Joseph, we will call his name Jesus because he will save his people from their sins and later on writing to Timothy the apostle Paul in the first chapter of the first book in verse fifteen he says it is a trust worthy statement deserving full acceptance that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, this was his purpose, this was his reason for coming into the world, not to be a good man, not to be a, a great leader, not to give us some model that we can, you know, that we can plan our life out and try and live up to his standards, he says I've come to give my life as a ransom, I have come to save and to seek that which was lost and here in this incident as he himself is dying and is in physical pain and torment he is carrying out this very work, of seeking out and saving of those who will turn to him, those who will put their trust in him, he is saving the lost, and we see in a wonderful how great the compassion of Jesus was and is, in reaching out and rescuing those who are lost, here we see our lord suffering the most terrible agony and yet in the midst of his own sorrow and pain and, and torment he thinks of this dying thief and extends his grace and mercy to him. Perhaps the book of lamentation is not the book you normally turn to, to find words of encouragement, but there are tremendous encouragements to be found in it, listen what the profits says there, in the third chapter, he says this I recall to my mind, and he's talking about the time of his own affliction, the time when he is going through it, the time when nobody loves him, the time when everybody's against him, when he's suffering and he's in pain the time when life is full of bitterness for him, he says this I recall to my mind, therefore I have hope, the lords loving kindness indeed never ceases for his compassion's never fail and here Jesus is demonstrating that, he's compassion's never fail, he's loving kindnesses they never cease, here in his dying hour Jesus is showing that in reaching out to this man but as we said the other week the, the deepest, the most important significance of what Jesus did then, of what Jesus said then, its not just of the historical account, but that he is able and willing to say and to do exactly the same today in your experience and in mine, what he did for that man on the cross he's ready and willing to do for every one of us the incident may of happened nineteen hundred years ago, but there's the old hymn, the verse reminds us, picks out that very story and it says the dying thief rejoiced to see that fountain in his day and there may I, though via us he wash all my sins away, and that verse from William Cowper's hymn, it takes up that great historical event, that tremendous happening in that man's life and he links it with a present and it applies it to you and to me and says this can be our experience as well. So lets just as we hurry along this morning notice several things about this interview that this man had with Jesus. I'm never quite sure really to be honest whether these individuals had an interview with Jesus or Jesus had an interview with them, because whether they thought that Jesus or whether they thought they were doing the, the probing and the questioning really it was Jesus who was in charge of the interview, you may of watched er certain chat shows on the, on the television or heard them on the radio and er depending who the person being interviewed is, very often it actually changes, and its the interviewer who really is being put through it, its the, its the person who's being interviewed is in charge of the situation and that was the case here Jesus. But lets just notice two or three things in this particular interview, the first thing that we see and its so obvious is that the way of salvation is so wondrously simple, it couldn't be easier, you know there are so many people who think it is hard to get saved, who think it is hard to come to Christ and to become a Christian, well the problem is you see the devil has blinded their eyes, they've blinded the eyes of men and women, so that they think that they can't do this, but what is actually happened, Paul tells us in, in, in Carinthians in the first er, in to Carinthians in chapter four and verse four, he says the god of this world has blinded the eyes of the unbelieving that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of god, and there is this shroud, this covering, but the thing is god takes that away so that we can see and so its not difficult to become a Christian, it is not hard to get saved, sometimes as Christians we are guilty of making it difficult for people to become Christians, we put all sorts of rules in, we, we make them undergo various periods of er, of probation before we wer we've were, were willing to call them Christians, remember the Philippine jailer he cried out there to the apostle Paul who was er in jail there with Silus the, the be , the tremendous earthquake and they were released all their vetoers was, were broken and the prisoners were all, could of escaped and the ja , the Philippine jailer he cries out a question that I'm sure he doesn't even know what he means when he calls it out, he's not thinking of heaven, he's not thinking of the future life, he's not thinking of having his sins dealt with but he just cries out what must I do to be saved and the apostle Paul and he gets, opens the scrolls and he starts in genesis and he explains the plan of salvation and he tells him what he's got to do and he explains all the requirements and then about three or four hours later the mans mind is completely blurred he doesn't understand a word of it, its gone way beyond him Has anybody come across those terms assertive aggressive and passive? Yeah. A lot of training goes on about assertiveness training and maybe the word has got around assertiveness is good and everything else isn't so good. I think maybe that's right on some occasions, but the thing about this is that very much depends where we are and what situation we're in and we may actually choose to use one of the other types of behaviour. What sort of situation might you choose to use that type of heading ? Possibly, yes er a situation there where you might actually well you tell me what you think, so it's actually declining, backing off, yeah? So maybe we'd use it in that situation. Or working within a bank and somebody runs in with a shotgun, what sort of behaviour then? there aren't too many people who actually go aggressive and wrestle the gunman to the ground, yeah? There may be the odd one or two, but the risk he's making his head blown off by doing it, so against most of us will say here you are take my money and run passive behaviour. What about aggressive behaviour then, what choose to use that? rob a bank aggressive behaviour yeah. Why not organization? When all else fails really. Right I mean it could be as a matter of a last resort yeah. Maybe he's a bit cranky about the scale so it may be a conscious decision that goes without. he's feeling aggressive Right, yes it's quite often aggressive people passive people who like maybe having passive people around and just needs somebody to walk over to shout at and behaving in an aggressive way, so maybe we have to go aggressive when we deal with an aggressive person. So perhaps the first thing about that continuum is that none of them are right or wrong we all dis-represent the ways of behaving and it's very much a personal choice which one will use at one stage. right or wrong. The to say anything is that we all have natural places where we feel comfortable, we all have particular styles where it's easier to eat it's more comfortable, perhaps is an example and very comfortable just staying where we are being passive it's nothing particularly prognostic about that for us. So we actually choose to be wherever we want to be, it's very much a personal choice. The third thing about that is that it represents us saying continuum. Now we've got very much a personal perspective and we see things through our own eyes so somebody may see somebody behaving and regard that as an assertive behaviour, somebody else may actually see that as aggressive it's very much a personal view of actually where we see the people lying and also indeed the people who prefer to deal with them. Maybe these people here prefer to deal with aggressive people or indeed passive because you can completely walk over them don't like dealing with anybody they're totally passive on the far end of the scale passive. So we all have personal preferences with people who we like to deal with and indeed how we see people as well. So got to continue on there on behaviours recognize people that you see around about recognize to be aggressive, some as assertive some as passive. What are some of the clues if you like that tell us if people behave in an assertive, aggressive, passive way what are some of the other clues take that away from us? Right body languages. A very good example on sort of the clues some behaviours that make us say yeah it's aggressive, passive, assertive. Tone of voice certainly. Anything else about the voice? Yeah, volume. Voice, tone, volume, what else? What other sort of visible symptoms is behaviour? Right I mean,part partly related to body language, but it things like proximity Yeah, absolutely yeah why is it people who use the aggressive words are gonna be totally different from the words individual passive behaviour . So there are a host of clues there if you like about the sort of things that people will actually do and these are all underlaid by an attitude. If you've got a slightly different attitude also an attitude. Okay what I'd like to do is get you to work in three syndicates looking at body language, voice tone, words, proximity, attitude, voice volume but what we'd like to do is actually work in a syndicate that is out of style, out of keeping in your normal style. So for example if you're normally aggressive, we'd actually like you to go with a syndicate that's passive and work passive. If you're normally passive, we'd like you to work in a syndicate that will be aggressive. Okay? Now we're obviously even split two in each three so aggressive group So remember want it to work in a group that a normal style so volunteers for groups? Anybody else? I'll be aggressive. aggressive. Okay assertive. passive. assertive. Yes Yeah well I dunno maybe I was gonna say is because what we'd like you to do in your feedback is actually give you a feedback using the style that you were holding back on. So for example the group who are doing the aggressive I don't say that until after . Report back about being aggressive and we'd like you to report back modelling an aggressive style, yeah? Assertive group report back modelling an assertive style and the passive group you report back modelling a passive style of If he can actually think about getting up yeah, okay? So if you would like to prepare yourself responses and ready for a preparation, not preparation, presentation erm it's coming to half past nine give you twenty minutes on that preparation, so if we can be back ten to ten this group please. Can you just flip the thing Yeah, sure. So it's body language, tone, volume and voice, things like proximity the words they might use and also what's the underlying attitude that fires the behaviour you're looking at. In terms you wanna word hay loft, conservatory. subject matters. Now I'm being totally passive about that one. How you getting on? Yeah. Done? Yeah. Yeah?. Done? Looking good. Okay now at this stage you don't normally have to ask for volunteers for the first group because it usually sort of role then off they go. So guess who's gonna go first. Morning aggressive. So we don't need to go through this. Now you're gonna get on and read it and you can report back in ten minutes and I don't want any questions. Right. Ah oh, oh, shame. presentation. Short and sweet. Think he got the message. Did you get the message other groups? Certainly knew which one they were doing. Right okay so what you say about it? Body language, expressive, eye contact, talking at them and power striding, what's power striding? Sort of power striding up and down, walking up and down and bouncing almost. Yeah, okay. So it's very much body language that is actually directive, sort of right up people's noses quite often very, very close to people yeah? Er voice tone, voice certainly loud, short sharp phrases er little chance of pauses. Raised tone. Yeah. Likely to be aggressive, likely to be, certainly likely too loud. Yeah Think about domestic silence. What's wrong? Nothing. So they sit there and you think there's nothing being said but the atmosphere is very much full of aggression. Frequently is loud, but sometimes absolutely the complete opposite, silence can be actually very aggressive particularly with somebody you don't normally get that silence from, you know they're normally warm, pleasant individuals and all of a sudden silent and that's actively aggressive as well. Certainly a word you must, you will, I imposing language. Positive and threatening conversation. I'm sorry I can't read that. Yeah so it's likely to wanna be out on their own. Competent, controversial . Okay? What's the underlying philosophy behind that type of behaviour aggressive behaviour? What's really just sort of quick summary of all of that? lack of self-confidence. Possibly, I mean aggression could be a response to lack of self-confidence you're quite right. If you're lacking in self- confidence you may, don't want, you don't wanna get other people's views and meekness impose them. So perhaps the underlying philosophy is I win you lose yeah?me, I'm gonna win and gonna be loud and be aggressive, I'm gonna stand over you, I'm gonna stand very close to you, I'm gonna point my finger at ya, I'm gonna stare at you. It's all about I win, you lose, I need to beat you, I'm gonna stamp on you, I'm gonna make sure they actually beat you. So that's the underlying philosophy of aggressive, it's gonna be I win you lose. Okay, thank you aggressive group. Who's gonna come next? Right this is gonna do. Right the er body language voice tone, volume social dominance the words and attitude Thanks . Again it comes this, but assertive behaviour body language etcetera. It's very much middle-of-the-road aggressive person Yeah. Yeah, I think that's a good point, cos certainly if, if you're towards the aggressive, we've actually got go you might shout a bit louder, shout a bit louder and what happens if it doesn't work. All at the end you do is losing your voice and, and if you don't get your way, then you it up louder and louder and louder and if you don't get your way you may have to back down then and the aggressive person backing down to sort of a submissive doesn't always hold very much credibility. Maybe the assertive person might be able to be more flexible certainly cos he can move between. I've never had somebody from my class should be able to beat passive assertive that way find it difficult to do that one. What about the philosophy for this one then assertive? Yes. Yeah the attitude is very much about I respect your rights as an individual, you've got equal rights as much as I have. The individual who's gonna be assertive is likely to be open and honest or likely to admit things that are not so good at honest those, but they're not gonna necessarily apologise for those, they're gonna treat those as statements of fact and they're certainly gonna try and involve other people and actually say what do you think this, what are some ways forward er but it doesn't mean that they're gonna be walked all over and they still stand up for the things that they firmly believe in. They may not always get what they want, but at least they're standing up for them and actually feel good about themselves afterwards because . At least I had my say in it, and had the opportunity to put something in. Okay, so goodness from the assertive group. Passive group. Right well erm We decided to er change Well I think the I decided that what I did it for small reasons Thank you very much. Thanks David. Comments from the others for that passive behaviour? It's very apologetic. Right. It frequently is apologetic yeah. Why, why is it likely to be apologetic? Yeah, I mean it's about to decide whether you lose situations now I lose Everybody else is much better than me, everybody else has got a far better right to actually They often can be related to in hierarchy terribly aggressive to his subordinates but the company or his boss quite often the position the attitude that we actually take passive, aggressive, assertive. So a range of behaviour is very important in influencing that we identify where we're coming from and where the other party's coming from as well, so that we can maybe begin to mould our behaviour and decide what is appropriate maybe on some occasions towards a passive actually gonna help us achieve for influence. We may decide let's be passive and move to battle decide is actually an important issue and wanna be aggressive and they actually bring in a relationship so important . On other occasions we may decide assertiveness is an investment actually got to use that style of behaviour to get my point across and to listen to them as well. So the choice is the choice . right you've got a view but the other party the other party actually has a point of view you don't know you need to look change. Change is probably the biggest sitting with their arms crossed quite long periods involved with what is going on people who sit with their folding sometimes change of attitude how people react Indeed and one of the points can be more difficult you don't know Okay. So we've had a look at the three different erm behaviour types passive, aggressive, assertive. stage further though, and begin to think about what we're dealing with people with different behaviour types. How do we actually manage to deal with them,some of the ways that we can actually do that. So we'll do, let's just split into two groups, one group to have a look at aggressive people, one group to have a look at passive and what I'd like to do is identify any groups. How you gonna deal with people who are, we get this side of the group to be aggressive people passive side, we'll give the right hand side of the group as I'm standing look at the passive people. How are you gonna deal with passive people on the right and how are you gonna deal with aggressive people. What are some of the things that you can do when you actually have to deal with these people, particularly remember if you try to achieve influence on a course here, that's what we're here for. We'll leave the assertive alone for this particular point in time what are we to do to deal with aggressive, what are we to do to deal with passive. Again,some feedback on the flip chart erm let's give you fifteen minutes for that so it's coming up to five past twenty past We'll take a bit of feedback on how you're gonna deal with those people. Yeah the clock, the clock's there I always get groups that say where's the clock cos they can't sort of see where it is and I'm sort of saying it's the angle tell the time . Okay so a quarter of an hour and we'll take some feedback I think the er last one is perhaps So if anybody's got or anything else perhaps Okay who would like to come and er give us a feedback? This is the group that are dealing with passive behaviour. Erm they can start by relaxing erm and a passive person erm and at the same time try and increase their . Always use encouraging words see their point of view involve instructions as possible, understand what their, what problems they have and try and provide where possible erm reward positive feedback . Er establish trust much as possible and involve er and try and get involved yourself if you can in any way to er show that you're, you understand the task that they're doing . Erm try and where possible to use the individual communication with them as opposed to erm communicating to them as a member of a group preferably in a relaxed environment er rather than a sort of erm including any decision making pass on as much credit for that decision as possible Yeah erm possible identify their impassive reasons for their . Good, thanks a lot. Yes certainly deal with pa passive people probably more difficult people When I was out on the road I mean before I came into training I was so I laid my cards at the table at this point in time to say yes I need to sell insurance erm and I always remember particular broker who you go in and and he's saying well so how many of these particular products would you sell over the next year and he said oh twenty five and you go in great, guy's promised to sell twenty five domestic contents policies over the next year. Unfortunately the rules inspector would come in next and the rules inspector would say to the guy how many rules policies are and you say oh G A inspector and to every one he actually gained in fact it wasn't there was no commitment there at all get rid of people. difficult people to deal with they get much commitments out they're so frightened they won't actually say no, they won't point out what is the objection to that and none of us got very much business out of the guy at all. I mean how he even got to be a broker I never understood . But he just could not give very very very difficult to actually deal with. Actually there are quite a few infuriating people went out for a drink what are you having to drink and she said oh whatever you're having and who have never ever been assertive oh well whatever you're having I'll have the same. Yeah, that's right. situation where you why did you do that and the silence is absolutely incredibly aggressive and you feel quite put on the spot. So silence can yes be a very good technique but too much it can actually be sometimes a bad thing very, very aggressive. alright, that's what you want, that is what we'll do . Thank you passive group. aggressive . avoid the confrontation Yes. two of you against one of them back you up whatever it means, whatever it means to you. situation Yeah. Yeah, thanks John. Yes please. Again any sort of comments on some of those tactics there? you absolutely get them going off but sometimes you actually want to use all's fair in love and war also actually use those sort of tactics . In terms of how rant and rave for probably not very long and you don't get aggressive behaviour, got nowhere else to go, you gotta get to come back down hang on to the chair to grim death absolute shambles never used it like this. You can actually get a lot of information out of the group. The passive person, you sit there . Okay. don't try and stop them and they start all over again it's incredibly hard work shouting what do you mean shouting you, you think I'm shouting though, you wait till I get going you know,okay, right incredibly powerful trying to work out exactly what he wants er eyes were bulging don't do that, don't do that, I'm in charge, don't do that. Don't you dare I'm in charge of this interview and erm and erm and erm what's caused this and why discussion what has caused this change to try and find out and put him off Horrible feeling you see two people shouting at each other two people shouting at each other get the impression that the other party is actually doing an impression of a goldfish and going like that. Did you ever see that actually talking concentrating at what you're saying Okay, shall we break for coffee? Hello. Well Hello. monster? Aha. What've I to do to you today? No, it's not him, it's me Doctor . Is it mum? Mum. What'd you do to your mum? mum for a while. Were you bad to her? Were you bad to your mum? What can I do for you? My bust again Doctor . I'm having terrible pains in my chest. It's only the, the right one, Mhm. that I have any pains in. Now I keep taking this Shelabruse it clears, and it comes back. You know how sometimes you get a lot of vein running down Mhm. your bust? Well it's sinking in, it, it goes into your grove. Mhm. But it's still the same, but it's the pains that I got the last time that's gon it's like sharp pains that's going round about, just the insides of the nipple. I have put a wee bit of weight on, so I was wondering if it was maybe Mhm. that. Mhm. Could be that. But it's been for about two month now, but it's For two months? aha. Are you on anything just now No. to try and ease the soreness, Cathy? No. No. It isn't, it's not a pain that's there all the time, Doctor . It just comes. It just comes. Is it a sharp sort of shooting pain? Very sharp it's as though something's bursting. You know, something's Mhm. running, it's like that. Right. Stop that for you . I had an appointment and I cancelled it, a couple of month ago, because it wasn't too bad. Then I had to get this one. Right. Now then this er I was going to cancel this. Better not to. Better not to. Er my mother's waiting to come in, so I was going to give her it. Will we give your mum nice medicine or rotten medicine? Oh he's not really sort of speaking to me. Is he in a bad mood? Aye . In a bad mood this morning? Are you? Wee boy playing with the toys out there and they told him to shut up. Is your gran out there? His gran's out there. Is she? No well. What've you been doing to your gran? Were you bad to your gran? There we are. What is this Doctor ? Will you take that for your mum? That's a boy. Two things Cathy. I've given you something to try and take the swelling off your chest, and that should ease a bit of the pain but I've also given you er stuff to stop all this bursting Mhm. on the inside. So now, I want you to use that for a full month, and come back up, and let us know how things are doing. Will do. . That should give you a good help with that. Just too heavy busted, I think that's what's . No no no no no no no, it's nothing to do with that, I wish it was as simple as that. Right. Wish it was as simple as that. Okay Doctor , Right Gary? thank you. Right, cheerio now. Cheerio Cathy. Can you get it all sorted out What's the Are you going up tonight with your da like? What? Are you going up tonight with your da like? No. You're not? No. Your daddy's gonna go up apartments. Come on See where you What? See Aye and a lovely job ? A bit er . Listen Mark come on. Right. Our Michael tried to steal my gel this morning. What? Michael tried to steal my gel this morning. You know when you were shouting at him? What? Know when you were shouting at him? Aye That's what he was doing, hoping I was asleep. Well Will you bring Mark?fibreglass . Aye. There's someone at the door. Aye. That's Right Mark, come on. Right. I forget where I was now. I'm gonna fibreglass all down and everywhere. What got in that loft Mark? Angela's toys Is that all? and Christmas stuff Ah. and two suitcases. And all the rest are bits and pieces everything's going off to Thomas. Yeah. I don't know what way your daddy's gonna fix them carpets down to the floor. Yeah I'll have to get I mean it's solid concrete. I think you need lots of rolls of two sided tape Aye. and stick them down. Oh come on Mark! Do you know this morning. You go down and bring the hoover up? Aye. And then I'll clean the bathroom Yeah. I'll not get anything else done out the back. Why? Well the rain and it's gonna shower all day. I mean you can't paint till you Right. Come on Right. You putting that bit of carpet down till your daddy come along and done that on it. Yeah I know. And I was doing alright myself, I shouldn't've let him do it. Mark whenever you start drag him off into the cupboard I know. You wanna've seen your face,your face, you didn't know what had hit you, you just went Oh dear. You order me No. But if you get up and give me a hand Right I'm getting up now. and we'll was hoping this afternoon to get the curtain rail. I know he does. get up late this morning. You sure you given him the right size. Aye, ten and a half curtains for and she's gonna get the net curtains Was Alex saying that young couple across the way from Thomas only moved in last week? Aye. that was working on the car? That's the one downstairs. No the one downstairs has been there quite a while. That's the one I mean, that's the one that was working on the car. Oh that blond haired guy? Aye. Does he live below Thomas? Erm no at the other side. Oh at the other side. Aye he wanted, he offered to give us a hand though. Och did he? of course he was talking to. Och well that was nice of him Mark. I mean you know you don't always get people that will give you a wee helping hand. Och well he's got all his basic stuff there now, it's only a matter of sorting it all out. Ah I know. Getting himself organized. Should've sorted out I mean I can't go up, I can't go up and give him any more help cos I'm working tonight and tomorrow night. Oh today. Our Michael's forgot where he, has forgot where he's hid his Nintendo tape. Mark yesterday it was in his box in his wee desk. That's what he says. I've seen it. Oh Mark. When I made that bed yesterday it was sitting in there. Maybe Honest to God, I seen it. Right come on, come on get your room done clean up wardrobe up. Right. were gonna meet Albert and all up in the park last night. Were you? Aye. Sure you knew you were gonna help to let Thomas in. Oh I didn't think I was gonna be that long. Ah Mark, when you're moving house! Did our Michael get your hairspray? What? Did Michael get your hairspray? Did he get me it? Get your hairspray last night er this morning. Oh left it in the bathroom. Ah I thought he used it. Between the four of yous I'm fed up buying hairspray. Oh he used all our can all of it. See I've had my hair cut and I didn't even use any of it. them curtains fixed. Is this, what's this? What, is this dirty? No it's alright. It's okay? Yeah. the wardrobe, the state of your clothes, I don't know why I iron nothing stays without wrinkles in that wardrobe. Oh it's alright. Right. I know what I need, to put my head down for half an hour this afternoon I won't be fit for nothing the night. Oh I think I just a can of beer or cider, fuck Mark the wind's killing me. It is Mark, I mean I know it is myself. It's fucking madness, I'll ge I mean it kills me the next day, it's madness, I don't know why I do it. Fucking habit that's all it is, just a fucking habit. Can you ? Oh you must stop that bad habit of coming into this car, every single time,light a cigarette. Aha that's what I do, it's like getting up in the morning Mark. I get up in the morning, first thing I do is light a cigarette. It's just Thomas is coming on well with his wee flat. I suppose he's glad. What? I suppose he's glad to Well if he keeps, if he looks after the car and keeps himself right och it'll be okay but if he's gonna mess about and wreck the car well he's he's no way of getting to work. up there there's no bus service near there. Oh god I feel like death warmed up Mark it's a horrible feeling. Can I have one? Can I have two. No Yeah warning you to stop teasing her. What's this? Oh aye. It wasn't last night actually. Oh have to get these they're really getting, they're getting that they're, they're dangerous. What time did Thomas say he'd be down, half three? I don't know, I didn't even know he was coming down. Well he wanted me to go with him and get the curtain rail. I was gonna try shopping in there for a change Rather than the Co-Op? Aye, just to see what it was like. Took him ages didn't it to get his flat and it's not even where he wants to go. He had to take what they gave him though. Yeah I know. He's, he's gotta get a, get a place though somewhere else when he gets married. Well they'll put in for a transfer. He won't get it. He might, some people might prefer it that way, Flora nice wee quiet village. Where's she want to move to next? Erm closer into Lisburn. It's a wee bit way out out of the road for Denise like you know. Aye. You know they just, they don't care, the don't care where they dump you. I mean they could've given them a wee, a wee two bedroom around our w our way rightly. Mhm. Even that wee flat in at all. houses in estate. just waiting for me Mark. Mhm. I can't do them in here. Right, move your bum and let's go. That's it I'm not using it, I'm not getting it. here, want one? No. I wonder what time it is. Got your watch on? Aye. Five, ten past one. One sixty nine for a wee that size. size of it. I know. Well I could've bought with that under her armpits. She don't even need it. She'll have the bedroom stinking of it now, she'll scoot it I know it everywhere, she's a wee cat. Mm don't scoot that all over the bedroom now. I don't come and take that off you. I can't afford to go around buying that stuff and you, you, going madam. anyway with all your smelly stuff, it is you. It's not me. Soap and water does just as well. Nothing but the best for body beautiful like. Well you pay for what you want. Ah well I'd like to be able to pay for what I want too you know. I want it too. It costs for good stuff. I'm sorry I fucking came here worked out dearer this week than they normally do. Right, home, unpack the groceries watch Home and Away go and get Stephanie and Melissa out of school Angela will you Thomas will you run over and tell Melissa's mummy that I'll pick M I'll bring Melissa home for her? It'll save her going round with the baby. Yeah. Just, just go over and just say my mummy says erm she'll bring Melissa round for you if you want. Okay? Mhm. Look at that wee house Mark, that's an awful crying shame that place went like that. Aye. I'd've loved to have been in there and gone mad pull all them windows out and put all nice new wee windows in. would've lived in it. Mm to go like. Had to go cheap really. That wee house would be a challenge Why? What today? Aha. Ah I know. Oh something I would love challenge. Are you turning in mister or what? Or do you plan on, oh for goodness sake. that bastard, didn't know where he was gonna, he was indicating but I didn't know whether he was gonna just go on or what he was gonna do. Aye. wee car for sale. Did you see that? What wee car? Lean over. erm Aye. I thought that rain would stay off you know. What? Oh now eh? No I'm not. I am. Two more . God love him, Where's you going, home? Michael? Eh? Shouldn't've come down this way. Why? What? I just felt like walking it. Have you phoned her? no. phone, they're stinking. Sure wreck it,round here, don't leave nothing alone. Ah I know. Our phone on our street's What? The phone on our street It's a wonder well Michael because all, all they wanna do round there is vandalize and destroy. Ah, see if I catch you round there I'll kill you. Or them ones at the shops, I catch you in there I'll kill you. I'm not allowed? No. They're a bad lot Michael. Er There's Terry Who? Terry. Who? Terry. Who's Terry? Is that i does that happen to be his nickname? No. Is that Terry or something? No. The cyclist here. red balls on it? Aye. Terry. I know. it was the one I used to and meet, mess about with few cracks with us. He's just passed his test there. Who? Him there, his second time, first time he failed it. Well it does happen. He got a cancellation. Did he? Aye. go in for it? He got it. He's done it an'all. How driving there. Lee you said. No I didn't I says he. Oh I thought you said Lee got a cancellation. Lee, Lee surely he hasn't even got his form away, form away yet. I dunno why like. Lee passed his test for that wee bike. He didn't have to do his test for it, well not really it's, see with the Post Office Aha. he does like a wee test, think it's Well they'd better do a wee test then. Aye. he's a nice wee fella. Aye. And Dolly likes him too. Oh I see. he's got, he's a nice way with him. If things work out well for him he will do good with his money, if he doesn't go out spending like he does, his money will do alright. Like Nicholle, Nicholle's over a couple of thousand saved for a car. Well like that's good for a wee girl who's still going to college and what not right? Aye sure she work she gets, saves all that money. And Lee says she's tight with money in a way but if, no she , but she's very careful with her money. Well that's right I know. Best way to be. I'll just have to get another job now after says to me did you get Here you can help . Grab the bags. Well I'm only asking him to lift the bags. Now don't you two start now. I'm not starting. Hurry up and put it on will you. You left the handbrake off. The car's rolling in the fence. Here. Right, go. Want a hand with it? Want me to help you kick it? didn't have to do it. If you two are going to start your fighting around in here er hair will fly and it won't be mine . Yes my dear. All you two think of is fighting with each other. He didn't wanna bring his bag in, he started kicking it. Put them two inside. For once in your lives can yous not be nice in this house instead of bickering and fighting Why? You know why. Well grow up. You're seventeen years of age, can't be fighting with a twelve year old. I can't help it, he's just annoying. Well you are bloody annoying too . Everybody annoys you but you don't think you annoy, and yet you har you never stop to think if you may annoy people as well. I didn't do nothing to him last night. Look he's laughing You get right up my nose you do. And you, less of your smirking. Er mum did you get two tins? Of Mr Sheen? What? It's not Aye it's er for the batteries Did I get what? Have you got ? No. I'll if you have Yeah it's nice. That's for the batteries. I'll get it. Hello yeah what?where are you? You're coming up eh? Right, cheerio . Whose? Albert, that's all he seemed to do. That's all you do. Hey Well it's not you're picking on it's Michael or la last night it was Thomas. He started it last night. You pick on your da, you'll get a thick ear. Can't just back then. I know you can't and you needn't back to me ever. I know, I wouldn't hit my parents. I would hit my brother but Ah mister goody two shoes. No I wouldn't. The day you lift your hand Have you ever seen me hit you? the day you lift your hand to me or your father would be the day you wouldn't walk again cos I'd cripple you. I wouldn't. I wouldn't hit her. Sure I was gonna flatten Thomas when he , he was gonna hit you. He jumped up to you. Here Try and flatten him. Mark it's gonna stay dry you know, we could finish them wee bits and pieces Yes It's gonna rain. it's not gonna rain, you're a lazy get that's cos you don't want to do it. Albert's coming up, Albert'll do it. I don't want Albert doing it,Alb Albe Albert Yes mummy he, he'll end up getting er that won't even fit in there Mark. Cut the top off it when you open it, give us open it what's that all over there? I don't know. Washing powder? It's not it's conditioner. Conditioner? It's come out o That's very unhygienic mum. It's not unhygienic. That is. Mark you start talking about hygiene to me dear whenever you pass your basic hygiene test. I've done mine. I've cut the top off and the wee cap can't go on What? Look I cut the cap off and that won't go on. Ah Mark you've cut too low! Well it fits in the cupboard. Okay I'll collect her, I'll collect Here take that see if you waste all of it you're done for. Och it's even forty P off mummy. I know. and gets a shower or something. Mum freezer. The freezer's all filled up. That was Michael yesterday. I'm not one for squealing like but it was Michael. Oh dear If you're not going to eat that piece of cake Mark may as well throw it out. What do you mean? I was gonna eat it yesterday and you says no. Well I thought the kids would've took some of it. I only took a wee bit, leave it there and I'll eat it at the end of the day. Albert's coming up, he'll have a wee bit. Look there's wee pieces of cheese everywhere in this fridge. Open a block and then open another block. That's Michael again. You're the one that eats cheese too, you blame everything on Michael. It's him that eats most of the cheese. Well at least that's the shopping out of the road Mark,all sizes. I like them but they're nice and hard. I'm gonna do erm I'm thinking of I don't want anything. We ha well you're gonna have to eat something decent. Well what are you gonna make? Potatoes and with peas and gravy. Oh yeah right. What time are you making them at? I'm not put it on early Oh that's alright then. cos I have to go to work at s I have to be ready for work at Well do you want me to make it? if you like. No Albert'll be here. See what our Michael done? Put his shake thing in there spilt all over the fridge. For god's sake! Look. Michael What? Come here. You've spilt that old milkshake stuff all over the fridge Michael . Do you not want it then? Do you want it Angela ? She's not in, I think she's going out. Oh I'll leave it there, Albert'll be up here probably he'll take it. Alright. Is that washing finished and I'll get it out of the dryer. Have to fix this for you I think. Aye the, the down the back and all, the dog's kennel there Mark. Mark? If you close that up See after I pass my test I'm going over to I'm not going back to . It's round about it's round about the same. Well I don't know why you I don't know why you want to bother.? Where's the car keys? Erm I don't know in my bag. He has them. here? I think the hammer's up in Thomas's flat. got our hammer. There's a wee, I think there's a wee hammer here too a wee small one. Where's the Stanley knife now? I need the Stanley knife the shaft's too thick. if we had, if we had a blade might get me a buyer for that. Is there not a Stanley blade knocking about anywhere where you could just pare it down a wee bit? No. knocking about. Ah, what did I say Mark? Use a sharp knife. I haven't got a sharp enough knife. Hello Talking about you you big eejit. What for? What? What for? You didn't? Why? Come up where? His house. I seen Terry on our estate. Did you? Aye. Him and Davy ? Aye. And two other girls. Aye. You're not working today Albert though? Eh? Tonight. Tonight. You're working tonight? Ah I didn't get, we didn't get in there with one. Aha, did you not? Took us half the night to get all that stuff in. By the time you get by waffling and all to everybody. Waffling! You were fighting everybody. I wasn't. You were. Just wanna kill him. I give What? Albert Albert want a bit of cake? What cake? had a bit of it yesterday. Wedding cake? No it's birthday cake so it is. if you want. Why? Time? Were you arguing with her? No Are they? I thought I heard them when I was on the phone. Where? Is it? good money but very good money. I dunno but I have to go down to When? ? Aye. Aye. I can't go tonight. like and he's gonna wanna take me. Where are you going to? I'm gonna go to er erm Du ah Dundonald. Dundonald! How you getting down there? I won't be starting until about nine months when, after I've done my test. Then take the car over. then? Aye. It's a banger so it is. Is it? Aye. It's near where they held the show, you know show? Aye. Near the Do you want that? It was Michael's and he didn't like it. Oh I'll try it then. You don't want that cake? Eat it, eat it all if you want. I'll just have a wee bit go down and get something that's Yeah I, I've lost over a stone now. Have you? My ma's not feeding me. putting the fat on something shocking. she, she cracked me up she said I left she says no don't, don't, don't, don't it's too , it was a bit like Sometimes I think he's a frigid or something. You what? Sometimes I think he's a frigid . Yeah. I've only seen him kiss your woman, that was what three and a half months ago . last night he was having Who was? With Joanne Were you? I wasn't Eh? she asked me for my phone number last night. she says what's your number. So I told her and she says mhm No? What? Do you want to? What? See her. Why? Because. something goes wrong I end up backfiring on me or something. What goes wrong? won't talk to me. So Would you see Who? tomorrow. Dunno. I would. You would? Yeah. Would you? After last night? You bet your John sitting on me,me, Joanne she was sticking feathers and everything in my ear and trying to kick her, Lee, here's Lee, Lee's don't, don't, don't,whack! I went straight over and I didn't get up for about ten minutes. He hit me that whole car park on the ground. He me something shocking. Your nanny has to work you know. Well for Christ's sake you haven't even done a week yet. What did your mam say Albert? Oh I dunno. I think I'll phone them up and cancel them. What? I think I'll cancel them. And when's he supposed to be coming in? phone me up yesterday. Did you say that to him? There was nobody there. Oh was it closed? Aye. Ah well there must be something wrong then Albert. Mm? No I don't know. What? How would I know? Albert Albert cigarettes ? Yeah. That Hellraiser's good. I'll see you later Yes. Right cheerio. Cheerio Cheerio now. Hand it in now love, right? Right, I'll see you later. I think wants me to paint the levelling for him. Does he? Aye. fucking Why? Wonder how much I'm getting from the claim. I'd like to know cos I can get, if I'm getting say if I'm getting about two Aye. I wanna put it away and save and prove our Thomas wrong, he says I'll never have a decent car. his er, his Fiesta, three hundred pound junk. So I was down Butcher Road yesterday, seeing jeeps nearer five thousand. Well if I get this, if I start this job it'll start me saving again. six hundred. Well that's er eighteen hundred innit? Aye. That's good. But I'll insure myself for my dad's car, hundred and sixty eight pound. So I'll use that there, ought to get me about. I was saying them, them jeeps are four thousand ei eight hundred, four thousand eight hundred and fifty nine pound. Those Suzuki jeeps Aye. on Butcher Road. I wonder if she got hers. I wonder if she is getting it even, she says she's gonna You never know she mightn't get it. She's on about two fifty an hour. That's what Joe's on. You know Joe? That's what he's on. Aye he is. an hour No he's not, he's on two fifty. No listen we were all on two twenty five, I can't remember how it happened but Amanda explained it to me, about Joe. Something happened, he got accused of something, he got accused of something. Aye. And he got two fifty or something. Aye. Then he ha they asked him They asked him back. to go down. But he, he was getting more money in Bailey's so he ended up if he went down to the, the he would get two fifty still. Ah. I couldn't go back after Amanda. Eh? Who? Over where? Who? No. Well we're on holiday next year then? Aye. I wouldn't mind going away this year. But only after, after er . I haven't got the money. Plus I wanna get my car first this year. Er I wanna get my car first this year so that gives me time to save for next year. Plus Thomas's wedding an'all and I'd like to buy him a decent present like considering His flat's nice. Flat? Aye it's a flat. That's nice. It's a nice flat, it's big too. What is it you've to see her about? Well just go in and tell her you'd like to enquire about your claim. Or do you know your name of your solicitor, do you want to see your solicitor? Do you know the name of her? No. Is it er is the name on the window there? No. It's a fella. Is it a girl you're seeing? Just say you'd like to see your solicitor and they'll ask you who it is and you'll just say it's er a gi a gi just say you don't know her name but you're it's a woman. And then they'll know. will I say? Just say you'd like to see your solicitor and they'll ask you who it is and you'll say it's, you're not sure of the name. Hello. Can I make an appointment to see a solicitor? Okay, what's your name please? Albert . Albert Why do you want to see your solicitor? It's just that I wanna know what, what's going on. Okay well we're waiting as far as I know for the money to come Is that ? Yeah, I'll just see if I can find an appointment. What you're putting on your, Has your daddy your bank account? No my daddy's, it's in my daddy's name. Do you remember the, the forms you signed? Yeah We've just sent that back to the, the D O E and so we're waiting yeah we're waiting to get the money in, we'll let you know. Right. Alright? Thanks. Cheerio. Cheerio. Fine. I er well er you'll have to put it in your daddy's name lift it. No But then if it's in your name your bank account. What are you gonna do? I tell you I wouldn't touch it. Like considering like it's money you never had like you're going to lift it all and just blow it, I know you. Fucking am I ? I know you Albert, you will. I would leave it there like it's money you never had, I would leave it there until you get your test. Like a few months before you get your provisional and while you're working you can save the rest of your money, like you're . You're getting the thousand five hundred, lift the five hundred leave the thousand there for a car like. Like it will crack you up like when you see everybody else out driving in a car like, look at Terry and all and Debby, see all them driving a car. It'll crack you up like if you're not gonna be driving about. Oh you'll probably be with us but you'd like to have your own car. Lee hasn't even got his form away yet. I know, he But if I know you you will lift it. You will lift it. Ah you will . Sure like you says, how much did you say you were gonna give your ma and da? Who? You. A hundred and fifty, ah that's a bit better. You could even give him a hundred that's all I'm givi I'm giving my da my ma two hundred pound. Like no way I've been out of work for a few months and she's been letting me off for the keep. keep? Well once I get my claim money I'm gonna give her about two hundred of it that'll help her anyway and with Thomas's wedding like she had to pay like, how much was it she says? Six hundred or something for a day no four hundred for a day. Four hundred pound For the cars. Then she said it's what, sending him for his honeymoon. He's mad that's all I've got to say to him. You're mad if you lift it. You are. Eh? Ah, just going to get Stephanie. You wanna get Emma? Aye well So what's going on in here? I What? ? Is going? Probably go ? Ah that's right, Stephanie too. I don't know. Why? Ah You're never gonna believe Ah? No. I'll probably be down it's in my diary for Thomas, tonight? My dad's going up to Thomas's. You going with him? Had a laugh last night we were laying the carpet and I was laying it, I cut it off see where it is you can't fit, can't fit it under the doorsteps Can you not? cos it's all concrete floors and of course it's inside can't even nail the carpet down, you have to get er sticky stuff. So you had to cut round the doorstep , cut round it, I done it, I did it all neat and tidy the whole way round till we got round to the door and I says you can do it, no way am I cutting round there big chunk Ah sure he's only staying out for a while till he gets married and that. Gets on his feet again. She's not allowed to move in though Is she not? not now, no. Michael what are you doing? Here, here hang on. Where tubes go that was in there? Where are my, where are my two tubes of gel go that was in the cupboard? Michael?taken my Two tubes of gel? Ah. Oh the ? Aye. Down there. Are they? Yes, in a bag. How do you know? in a bag. How do you know? How do you know? You stop poking into my stuff or I'll kill you. Get out. Catch you in my stuff again I'll kill you. I wasn't in there anyway. Yes you were. Then how'd you know where they were ? What? What do you use it for? Go on, say something now. Ah and I'll kill you. Right I'll tell you now, see next time you punch me in the mouth I'll kill you. Alright! You win. throat. Oh are you? Leave me alone, alright Leave me alone alright. You shouldn't go to kick things in. Then I'll hit you. Oh ma our Michael's up here throwing things at this my table c hi fi thing Ah you are. Mark I would like you and Michael to come out of the bedroom now please . Want me to slap her? He said, he was going to throw this car thing at my hi fi thing. See that fucking knife Mark, I ought to stab you or him with it, I am sick to death of yous. All yous do is fight and ruck and fight do you ever see a house like it Albert? And what's wrong with you now? He gave me a punch on my nose. and I'll tell your da you were out so late. and there's, and there's enough fighting going on in this bloody house See you later. How long will you be? I'll phone you. Aye, how long? Ten minutes? Aye. Want to go with us? To get him fixed up. Yeah if you like, aye. your sisters. They're married. Margaret? No er, er her, her sister's married like, she got married when she was eighteen. Too bad, what a waste. Aye. Here's me, oh my god! no way I'm gonna see that fucking I didn't want her in I'm glad she's not back in. What? I'm glad she's not in. Cos if she doesn't get in not leave the Hey? She can't leave the and I can't leave June so I should've she made it worse, she started slapping her jaw you shouldn't hit your man one punch jaw and mouth, his jaw and nose and everything. What? was last night it was, it was good. We were gonna hold him on the floor so we were. have a label on it. Sure No had a good laugh last night. four of us, no there was six of us, six or seven of us . Right James had all his mates down, right? And many of us so all of us stood Yeah. every one, every one of us no?it was a good laugh like so it was Donna was telling me Jamie, Donna says and he says no and he says you wouldn't two time me and she says aye She's surely gonna say aye. She says, she says aye get on no Barry says he says get off see you later. so she's thinking about it Albert? No it's Lee's. I thought you went to get a tape the other night. Where did you get , off Lee? That's what I thought you went over to his house for. Aye Er what was it you went for, the wrestling tape or was that what it was? I lent it to Lee's da. Cheek. What? Cheek. Look who's I says get the job done, and I am the father like Every time What? She's always full aye well we're using that, the white stuff What for? That was we were using that white stuff, you know thirty, thirty six?off his hand where it had all dried and he rolled it up in a ball and hit me in the face with it, that hurt. So I threw the I put some thirty, thirty six on my hand, I put it on and it went hard Now see the way his car's banged at the front? Why? See it? Mhm, that, under there? Aye the front of it dips. Aye. What, dip? It's not meant to be like that . going over to this place. What's this? what do you say? He's just a kid you cannot hit a wee kid. Oh what are you gonna do now? Yous going out tomorrow night party? I don't know Albert, I that's tough. He's playing dead that a nice dog! Alright. You know. No. Who says I am? Wouldn't you mind if I go down? Aye. Who? Aren't you going out? Aye. Be off with you then! We're just going to Hall. You, you going to , will you go round the Paki ? This way before . Hello Mark. That's right, we're friends, Marky. Are yous? this morning. Aye. He, he did come. Who? Who? Fucking Albert. While he was sitting there this morning. Would you? Aye. Na na na na na na na . Heard it all! Bloody disgrace! See, if you had of gone down to the shop He's alright. he would have had fucking pen there would have been no working for them! Right. Yes. Is that what it was? No I said Had it with the shop? He wouldn't go round to get changed! He wouldn't go round to change! Oh. So he wouldn't, he was, I ge I said to him er, where you going? I'm gonna get changed, sure he never said anything about a shower to get And what the hell very much! Well anyone He's got one , he had a bath. Mum, we But er saw you . He's down to the fucking , it's taken him more than three hours! He'll be down on Sunday. I know, that's what I meant. What kind of ? That's daddy. This man No. on the way down to the villa Oh, and that's enough. all to you . What? Right. I would sooner die! Good that was Kill her! there. Alright. Alright! that one. That's right. Is that right? I think so. Well, eh! Eh! And I don't like you fucking about ! Alright! Okay Mark? Hey! Come here! Take my back Oi! pack in there and I'm gonna Oi! play Michael Jackson. Okay! Jackie! Is it? I thought you were going Is it? out tonight? You've gotta tell her. There's they got there. Oh! You'll be up that ! Right! Er . You're getting rid of us! I said I'll . You want this pair? Get away. Get away! What? Well my Trying to fix me up. You know. Hello! Aye. Taxi. Taxi. Taxi! Taxi. Alright? Yeah, Aye! Aye. Ooh, nearly out now! Ooh! Watch your flowers Okay Leigh? Yeah, that's me! We did What? have to be in at . Oh. Okay? Yeah. Let's go. I won't fucking say it again! I'll buy you a card and a box of chocolates No I don't want them! Give them Alright. tell them take them back! Alright, well I'll eat them for you then. You can open it. Open them up, she didn't want it. Right, I'll see you later. Alright? Cheerio! Go! I'm waiting to go. Right cheers! See you! Wo! Wo! Have a good time! Right. Bye! Say hello to ! He'll have a good Well you don't have to date more than one guy. Oh fuck! Marky Copacabana. Copacabana. Yes. Can you open your ? They don't know. Forgotten about it or what? I wonder if a country boy you How much is it? These will about for you Dominic. What? Did you bring your bike, your bike over here? No. Alright. Where are you working now then? That . So I'm down aren't I? You see I'd rather be over to Ireland with a In a way, aye. like Should be a crack! A crack! Yo you're joking! Aye. He's not really going. Ah! Hello there! What's ? Ah it's good! Or you get thrown out and he says it's the end of it. I'll just keep going. He's his fucking army! I know ! Did you sa , say, I think it's couples bar in the morning. Oh aye , on his first night of being back. And stay like in the couples bar. Ah. Alright faggot face! Couples disco yes. Sure this is a just watch yourself and he says there's big chicks knocking about him and old town and all. Oh that's really No! Sure. He walked up with her. No big deal! Never seen her. I said not that I'm only saying like, I'm only saying, passing on what he said I, not that you fucking crease me! Aye, I bet you this was. Ah God! Sure you'll be on cover down the border. Fucking about. She's not. . That's why he says to me I'm gonna make sure they're to get me fucking in! He won't get passed us. You say like it ah, oh aye! You're expecting man in the box. Me! Aye,al If I got stopped I'm grabbing Albert and he's coming down to get changed too! Anyway, I'm not fucking Are you sure they'll let you in? Let's see. Well if he doesn't, we'll just go somewhere else then. We'll have to get, have to get Oh aye! Eh! about bottles. Is there? That this Thursday the twelfth of May Aye I know. He's alright. Aye, I know. and see how he No! Leave that alone. Ah, what did I say? It's Aye. Is it? Are they having it? Allo , oh Allan says he'll, I'll get yous tickets. That's very well, we're going then. And is there one where they get so much parties and that cos it's free? I've got tickets for a too. I don't know who it is. I got them last night, you know. Who says that fucking Norman and er Bashy never had shirts on last week? They didn't. That's right. They didn't even wear a shirt. Aye. Considering their dad was on the door like. Oh that's true. You weren't wearing jeans. I was wearing jeans last week. I says to your dad, your dad said well you weren't wearing jeans. That's right! I saw last week. Is that , that what he said? Aye, that's right your dad said you weren't. Sure I wore my jeans with my white T-shirt. They said your man wasn't wearing jeans, he wasn't gonna let him in, in here. ? You was wearing a Wrangler jacket well too. look at the lot of us. Peters. Well you better er sticking that on getting a fifty in your lap. Maybe get down to the corner too. Ah, it doesn't bother him. He's loaded! Is he loaded? Aye. Ah. So he's taking me here tonight. Albert. Is he your nanny ? That's right. See what I mean? I hope ! Well I won't be doing any! He must be the one, the man with all the money and everything. He is, indeed! Mm. He is. He ain't working any more. What's the odds? Ten to one. One to two. One to two, I told you ! Hello. Who's that? On your fucking! What's this for? Is this they jabbing your face my Lordship! Aye. What are they doing? About four times a night. Just checking. See if there's a Da da da . Excuse me lad, we're in a hurry here! We're supposed to be in a hurry. Look. that? About the time we're fucking get away about six quid! All this waiting time! But anyway, I just hope there's We're gonna an A B C or something. Yeah. One of you got an A B C! We're twenty three we're barely that! Just he is. What? The ten P What them? twenty P, thirty P piece. No! And is it car what's that? See my bro'er, my bro'er wanted dropped off somewhere, know what your man done? He went past the bo , my brother wanted dropped off, it was a one way street he went the way down came back up and parked and by the time he come up and parked it was thirty P extra! My brother went and fucked himself ! It was one, it was Go down that way two pound ten, here he was, two forty for what? He could have dropped me off the first time! He was, I know but I had to turn. And he goes will you fucking turn the next time after fucking, you drop me off! I'll shoot him! Any of yous got ten P? Ten P? Aye. Oh! Fifty. He's a man with money. No, where's Albert's phone number and my keys? The That's the biggest number Albert had. It's down here, take that down. Aye, here's an eighty P. I'll try it. Just hold on. That's it. You! This guy's got big boils! What's the time then anyway? Quarter past. Yep! Ten past nine. Eight? It's ten past nine. I'll bet you he's not coming in. Have you tried ? What? Twenty five . Oh! I've got nothing. Yeah. Oh ! Nothing It's all bollocks! I was and I'm playing football match and there I was absolutely fucked! I was meant to go there. Did you work late over there last night? Robert! I was meant to go and play there. Were you? For Aye. Playing Scottish next week. See Tony . Scotty? Oh aye. That's right. Scotty with a moustache? Aye. Ah. Know him as well. Why what? And again he sa , he says that if . He says the colours are . Aye. Said why didn't you knock him back . Ah come on! That Scotty, he's he gets weird! Yeah, he's dead honest. He's had lots of lottery people from er . Who's he then? Club owner. Here's your thing. Used to sit down But er in the middle of pitch . Bu is he a ? Aye. He was last year. I don't know if he is this year. The bastard ! Oh I'm just guessing. Tell me, this guy he's a fucking Fucking! Eh! He was do , over to get my one time, know. A while ago he done that. Ask him, does he know Ormo. I bet he's fucking Where did they come from? I dunno. That's alright. Go ahead. Right. See if I can shut the door on you! Cor! I might call back to fucking haunt you you bastard! cunt! Please tune in tonight! You see,I daren't say that. Come and, he might look at me for something. But did you give then? Mark . What did ? Did you give a right name? No !! Och! I think you're right, I wasn't even . Neither did I. I was, did you show but that's the second you've used that . ! Your mad! Fucking give the police the wrong ! big party. They're lovely you know that! That was nice! I'll have to compare Deborah. Got a light ? Is she having to come back off them. I think this your woman goes here and all. Used to be, see her now. Aye. Aye. Oh! Michelle? Aye. No. No Michelle. Ah! Ah! I know her brother said he might be with her. No, she wasn't with him. and er, Maxine. I dunno where he is. Oh yeah. I er er I haven't that. So that could be ? the answer to your I don't know where Moira is, they're all finished them Oh well that's alright,is running away. Her feller? Aye. Feller she might er . She gets carried away. If it's Kerry he'll be round! For everybody? That's fucking desperate that Allan! Thanks in million . There you go. Get the fuck all out! Cheers man! Alright thanks. I wouldn't worry about it. I gotta turn this thing off here. Your walkman ? No. Well, stay he will? What? Here's a bit of skirt . Oh big deal! What if it was? I would say no. Whoever it was Are you we gonna try for someone or Yes. something? Yes, I think we are. Oh aye. I didn't wanna There's plenty of them in the Washington ain't there? What? Wanna try them do you? You always try. None of us. Oh I know alright! You just go to people you know Albert! I don't see you going It's like one of those people on the Do you go . Aye! But you know them don't you? So! Well so what! You don't Do I? go to other people and ask them up to dance and all do you? Yes I have. When? In the Washington like Aye. What the fuck! The girl came to you Leigh that time! Aye. There's a couple who came to me Mark! But how about the other people as well, you know. Not just this one. Do you just wanna walk? Do you also? Alright! I dunno. Look at her? Alright? What? Look at her ! Erm how much is it for hotel? Shall we go there? Ah! All of my love . You're just sad cos you never saw me . Oh yeah, just is that alright? Oh it's just one of faces. It's in the Washington. Debby wants too. Not me. I just want to have Debby. Debby gonna have that girl here. Aye. Well who was just dreaming about two! Well he, he would have talked more about that was how . That's like Davey too he keeps on and on all night! Fuck ! Oh fuck, you've changed your tune now haven't you? or whatever, he's a bit of fun anyway. do you think? He's an annoying fucker! Now what does that mean when you fucking first asked? Want the Washington? Don't worry about him, what he's saying! Aye. You know what the place is like. What? You know what Copacabana is like. You know what other place is like. Right, and it made my last week . Aye! Cos your dad was on door! Your man always there! And all it was a Aye ! Yeah. But that's what I mean about it. Cos you made your own fun that's why ! Whoever, yourself! I never said that. I don't care. I had to keep you up. Cos you were gonna sit down again and he went and sat down. No! You went and, you went and sat down and I seen yous fucking between the so I went and sat down. I . Aye, you were! You were pulling him back to get on the dance floor! So I sat I didn't! down! He I felt sort of like a dickhead fucking ! Cos you had to pull him down to dance. After we if he didn't enjoy it then he'd get off the floor. He was just about to walk off when I pulled him back on. Ah you grabbed him and wanted to walk tried to walk on tried to Well he walk off. all I had to do was dance there anyway back to the other side. But you just fucking walked all off! Aye! I ain't gonna stand there dancing away while you fucking find me ! He's gonna dance! Aye. Sure Aye, in the Washington I was in the Washington I just everybody does it like that. So, but anywhere else Marky! Not just at the Washington. I thought you mean you can't dance about the Washington and nowhere else. all my life la, la la la I look in your eyes darling, da dum la la la la la . What? What about your dad? What? What about your dad? Ah? Ah? Are we there? I'm still let us hope that and don't forget who's taking you home you home . and in who's arms you're gonna be so darling save the last dance for me . Save the last dance for me . Oh! and wop wop wop bobble wop,ding da ding ding ding blue moon I saw you standing alone Saw you standing alone without a care in the the world without a love of my own. Without a tear in my eye. Without a Without a Without a . Without a in my . Without a love . must be . Can't go in case they're not cheap. Say that you Bloody ! But don't forget who's taking you home and in who's arms you're gonna aha oh darling . They're not even over the chippie yet. Oh ! Oh ! Hey Mark what's this? Hey? so it is boy. Cos that's the channel it's on because of Turn it off. Where's the remote? Where's the remote? Is it on now? Where's the remote? Right! Tell him he's the first one with the remote. Hey! Hey! Where's the remote? Hallway. There. each other to be a little sweet love forever . Shouldn't need to . Which one's the cha Which one's the channel, the video on? That's it there. Look at you two drunks! She could have just mind. I don't think so. Be quite hard. Mark. And again. Bit taller. Avaline. That wouldn't make any difference . There you are then, that's what I'm saying. What do you say? Must admit, I hate those . . How do you know? What happened to this last you was dancing with ?. . Cos the other day she stayed, aha. I know she That's nice. Is that Mark ? Yes. That's a ripe old age! Fucking hell!. Aha. It's disgusting! Is he, is he the black one? Do you wanna watch that? No. I don't like that. I'm not too fussed about it. Joe 's dead! Really? on the bed. But er she let her kiss you? Mm? No. I rang Michael. He's the one er,was saying. It was you saying about it. He was being really helpful. Who was? Bernie . well it is now! But it is now. Da da, der der er . got it back yet? What? Can I borrow it? Yep. Which tape and all was on there? Better off using your own. I don't worry about it. tt No. Got some of you, should I? She standing right there and that means, that means she's on the way.. Turn that off. There you go. I think it's back in. How about that? Need you . Come on. . Turn that off could you? Just turn it off by the T V. I'll turn it off by the wall. It wasn't turned on by the T V. It was turned on by remote control. Let me turn this off. Somewhere. Arrivederci, it's one on one . Sock. Socky. Socks and my shoes. So what are you saying? You're gonna have to bribe me. Shall I put that back? Did you walk all the way? Mm? Did you walk over here? . Mm? Take it back with you. How many earphones? Having the earphones? I know, it's much better! Aye. So Arrivederci Arrivederci it's one on one . It's down there. Ah yeah? I wish you would have told me about it. What? You didn't tell me about it. She'd never believe it. Cor! That's the only reason I've to tell her anyway. You wouldn't have the right. She can sleep downstairs. Sit up and watch videos all night. Oh . What? Have a . What? Have a blue one. Sure if it is, I would, the way, I'd die but if . Hey? Not so bad. So how's her wee cats? Or is it . Only Aye. Oh good! What's her name? Why do you have to be a heart breaker . I never knew that was on. I never knew that was on. It was under there. What was? That's underneath Hulk Hogan and that. Warrior! Urgh! Urgh! Urgh! Urgh! It's the music of the warrior! They're going wild! Down, down! Da na ! That's right, so we work them down a bit. I'd like to go back to fucking Monday night. I thought it wasn't good up there tonight? But er You two ought to . You'll be able to shoot me! Fortunately Yeah. they, they'd fucking shoot me! Ah, I doubt it ! Cos you had to be there last week, you say? Who? Yeah, I bet last week wasn't good. We're playing for . Put it away. Take the road. They're hurting someone. We're going up to your house and dodge through the back! I'm starving! Oh what the fuck! Yeah, whatever that is. It was a good night on Saturday night, Leigh? Oh yeah. Just sitting and . It's twenty past twelve. Och, She'll be by that sitting there half ten like. Ah, fucking, like you do on a Friday night! Fuck. See Jackie last time they were there, sure. Well Jackie and Gail, well at least Aye,. Didn't think that was a very good night. Kelly's? I dunno. Seen everyone getting on a grey bus. I dunno where where they're going. You what? You're useless ! Well, my . Ah? I don't care like! I don't really wanna know what they about me. Alright? Why, why you calling him? Well I wouldn't call him. Fucking ! What is it, a ? No. Well shut up then . Have you told him that I'm a ? What? No, it'll be probably be a long sight. Should be getting one. enjoy the ten percent . Fuck! So do I!. If they had to sell it. How many gigs do they have like ? Cos I like them to serve food, I really do. It's a nice bar system, fucking people going in. I love to eat! Aye, where were you? Copacabana. Any good? Christ Shit! Shit! One boring fuckers wanted to go. It was boring That's cos I was bored! That's the word for the place. I heard he's got fat. Where were you? Simon? What? Where were you? Some party, wished I hadn't of went. Why? Bastards shaved my Seriously? Really fucking pure bald! Bastards! What? Where did you go? Party. Say well Where you going now? see what you can do with this. What could you do with it, like? Fuck all! See all the fucking ! Want Chinese? Why, you going up for a Chinese? Mm. No. No.. Who? Yeah. How do you He does know? he does it. I just fucking packed up and have a sister. Pity there's no . Hey, here, let me off here taxi driver. Hello! Seen your house . Have you? Have you? Baldy aye. What did they say to you? Oh her mum was delighted to see me. Was she? Aye, she nice then? Playing for England . . Oh wait till I get to him! I'll . Aye. One half one. Cor!aye, aye, aye! You been down? I'm off to fucking bed! I don't know how I'm gonna fix this? Just leave it. You got work tomorrow haven't yee? Ah? Cos you always like it shaved don't you? Close. Well not fucking this shaved! Holy Shit! No hair at all. It's not bad. Baldy! I went pure white! Oh! You! Over this side ! I'd say it's still not bad. I'd say it's not too bad compared to this fucking thing! Ah fuck you! You'll have to shave that a bit. So, are we gonna be here? Who done it? I dunno. Who done it? Should have taken my own Don't worry about it. soap! Who said Who said I'll have to wear a hat. Fucking balaclava more like it, don't know about a fucking hat! Still working? Aye. Well, are we gonna go down here? Right lads. Probably see you tomorrow. Yes alright. Oh yeah. I just didn't like him. He keeps on stinking . It's you they're looking at. Listen, I'm alright. To the nearest fucking gonna get down through there. Just to see what the people say. Yeah. I'll be working all day you see. So, from one to ten I'll sleep. Fucking hell! Leave about one o'clock get in at half four. Aye,cos you were in early this week. . If you left at two. One. Get up at nine, get a stop there like. All that time we're getting on your bus stops at . Leigh! It's not actually Leigh. last night? Fuck me! That's all I ever get! Oh! Do you? I'm on the earlies in the morning now . If I'm on the earlies, right? And I get up about half four, right? Just say half four That time we're just coming in from a nightclub. I get up for about half four and I go to bed at half eleven till twelve. But I'm no , I'm in the house like, but I tho , I don't go to my bed till about half eleven twelve. Generally. Do you , bollocks! I fucking go You were in bed about half ten last week. Ah, but sure right. I don't come in till about half ten. I don't come in till half ten, or ten, ten o'clock. Why don't you ask to go to bed every half hour. Alright, just say it Leigh! Just say it! You're coming down to see us. Oh! And very funny! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Very funny! How do you feel like? It's a right bastard on this! It says bastard on his back! She's going to beat me. Kiss my arse! Mm. She's probably a hooker. . That's nice. Go and pick her up. Oh! Why do you think everybody's . In fact, that's a good place to stand there. Oh fuck off you! Fuck off you ! I didn't want you to . Hey! This is mine! Fucking sore! Oh for fuck's sake you're in it too. I'd laugh if they've got her. It's up there. Somebody's pulling that back off again. Fucking stupid! See that. Go on then! Sorry! No touts, thank you. Thank you! Just fuck off! Just sort of looked after me. I knew . Ah? Cos I knew she wouldn't come near me . I'm sure glad I've got it's just that I seem to be . Oh I don't care like! Oh, I got it. You want a be a biker? I goes, no like. Obviously not. Just . He's a very like er rebellious towards rock and roll. Yeah, but if you remember I goes in to his right now. Oh fuck! He was gonna kick his car down! I mean he really was a fucking animal! But er But his car's over there, right? Leigh? It's over there. If you put there. You've only got . Oh sure! Sure you can erm He's just said, we going into there? Mm. I must find another . But we never have long there. He's never there long enough. That's right. Doesn't he get the bristles on him! On the way, yeah! Loads of cars! Where is This chap nearly got stabbed and we sa saw it. Well it's his fucking ! They ought to let that out. It is, that is a bloody nuisance! Fucking ! Shh! Shh! Shh! There's no messing about. he says I've been talking to that wee feller and he was talking about the pub which got . Ha! Can you see the talent! Oh!second choice oh, in the end fucking Moya! She'd like it though. Moya. Moya. Ah! Does this mean you're moving out? No, it's fucking with that fat girl! Oh! Fucking She had nice knockers, mind you! Sure feels definite. As we ever So! we would have all got out. And hung ! This mindless feller move his bike straight out! And it was the er just going out and she pushed me too far! At least we got a couple of fucking here with those girls, you know what I mean, it feels good. You don't talk very much there Mark? What? You ought to liven up a bit! I'm pissed off! Because of work? Are you going to go Are you walking down to the garage? What? Aren't you walking down to the garage? Walking down to the garage? Aye. Aye. Well you didn't seem to be enjoying yourself sitting out there like. I'm really enjoying myself now. I'd rather be sitting in there and listening to music. That's all I think that place is good for, is the music. Good for the crack. That's the good part of going to , The . I could not have stayed up there and fucking hell! I could not have sat there all night. I'd have walked out. Fucking left the two of yous there! Yeah, perhaps we fucking should! Well where are we going then? The only reason which I haven't . Aha. Less walking. . I'll you bet you her ! Please leave the bottom line. Big deal! It was crap over there! And some of them are practically doing that every night! Oh wow! What? I haven't. Over in that Over there! I was. Where? Over there. I don't know where you were sitting. Look! There's Albert. He must have got it from someone. Last night Leigh. Last night? Were you up at the garage? How come you were all up the garage last night? Refresh your memory Leigh. Oh is it? Yeah. When we came back from Diva Was it? Back from Diva Yeah. It was all mucky Leigh. It's a good day now! It's a good easy day. Over there? It's not a very good day. I wasn't sure. I wasn't sure I'd give it out. I used to go in the dark. Aye me too. And I'm feeling, feeling really sober. Yeah, I thought so like. Ah? Aye. Excuse me! all the time . Together! As one nation! And I've said fuck you! And I said fuck you too! Ha! Get the fuck out of my country! Well what er, do you wanna do? It's the hit man and . How the hell do they go out every night there! Stick that in my coat. Hey lads. Hey look! His eyes. Look at me. Alright? Ray. I'll tell you I'll go up and collect him. Ray called for you. I know. is there. Are you ? Write it down there. Record it. Y M C A at . Hers is not bad. She's Aye. Got it in an advert, you know available. What do I have to do now? It's quite a lot of walking. We've passed the . Oh Jesus! Turn around, see that dog. too. Oh is he anyway. Load Aye. of bullshit! Actually I'll get in first, that'll be rather good cos I don't have to pay . Just missed the . Where? Ah. Oh I saw them. Their T V's on. Oh then, I'll see you tomorrow shall I? Yeah, alright. Right. Yeah, it's terrible! What time is it? Ten to four? Ten to four. Getting in at ten to four . It's all your fault! Could always take a dog for walk. He attacked me. Only joking! It's freezing! Well come and take a bit of a bed . What's the matter? You're taking the mick aren't you? That's if you have a bed when you go back ! Ah true. take over it. There's nothing Leigh, in there's. Thomas, Thomas, Thomas! That's all I get. Hey Leigh ! I can't feel nothing. Aye. . They are ? We're all waiting in here cos it's freezing . Say, everybody was saying to me we could break in there . Say before what? Aye. Dead on. Here boy! Here now! Up! Up! Up! Up! Oh!in shit! Get out of there! Go ahead! Up! Ha! Why do they eat ? What happened? Oh! Up! Up! Good dog! Good dog! Go over in that ditch there. There! There! There! That . That was fucking all over! Enjoy yourself? Do they have to know Hang on! Hang on! Wait! There's a car. He'll stay on the same side of the road as me, or as anybody. . Aye. Ooh! Until, no he will. He won't run out onto us. He'll stay till you go. Oh! So if you went across he'd stay here? And if I stayed th this side, and you went across he'd stay with me? Well I wasn't sure. Ah! Ha! If you started running across, call Bruce! Bruce! Bruce! Aye, he'd go. Caught up in your wishing well your hopes and sadness sadness take your love and promises and make them last. promises and make them last . You make them last . That's why we haven't . Yeah? Yeah? Up! That's . Up! Here! Here! Aargh! Aargh! You ought to see them up it's sort of like a leg here, half a leg there a bit of chatting up. No he's he's found somewhere to . But I thought well he's trying to get over a dog. Yeah, you're at the right end ! Ooh! Ooh! Ooh! I can't get in. There's Albert he er, as though we down I expect up the other side. You gotta jump down then up. Then what? Yeah, so either the people gotta go, ah! I just did ! Who? Fucking, all the others, er , didn't make out. So what? Excuse me! We thought you's was with Neil. Oh yeah, that was me. Not at all. He'd never fucking do that! Just do n't. Wo Bruce! Come on egit! Did you get the way you do that you clot! I won't probably. I see. I see. Perfect? Aha. You forgot who you got. What do you think of your bike now anyway? . That's a thermal you've gotta have. He don't want one, I put it back with the rest. Did he? Good! The bike . You'll see for yourself, I'm gonna get rid of it. What? Any time I like. It's fucking ! I'm gonna be able to take away that one. Why? Here at the hospital. It blew! Why what happened? Linda was holding and it blew. Just fucking shattered in half! Straight over arm, over here. Yeah, but fuck it! But I suppose, like blew it all. Anything happen, like, no? No. She had to go down to Linda fucking ! Fu started smacking Pippa over Blue's nose! What the fuck! Clean you out of his . Oh that's right! Johnny boy! Got or something? There's another one. That's a . That's what I'll do, I'll get a one. What? Swear I'd do that. Smell another dog's shat . Aye. You bastard ! Wallop! Ooh! That can come and see me. You a special case or something up, boy, you! You think you are a . You walk Are you? in front. Bruce! You think you're special? I'd like to see. And do they have to know Oh Christ! about my good What? night It's . Dare you to get permission for your . Can't be helped. We could do. What if he wants Here he comes. Sure did. It's a certain. Going for a triple A. I'm gonna tell her , that you woke me up Bruce. So Hello. First one. It's really cold. coming to my bachelor's. No dropping off at Kellydonald Where's your other leg? Up! Up, son up! Up! Up! Aye. Well that dog jumps up. Oh my lovely dog! Interesting how your la , your back is Johnny. I have to play for next week. Well, I don't have to, like. They want me to. Cos they're scared of getting beaten. So he asked me to play, cos they're playing against the Scotches. Are they? Aye. . After me packing Oh right! football in after Ballymena. Should go. Who? You. Why? Good crack! Against the Scotches. Where you playing? Dunno. Probably up in . Working ah la, across your river . Well I've got the key to the gym now. So just wait to see just going to the committee. Got a key for Stu. It's through the insurance, I know. Is he coming up right away? He's working up back on . Ah, but that's not the point, I wo , if they take him back I still shouldn't be allowed to train him. Don't let me. Hello. Good fun! It's all du ,, it's his fault. That'll be the worst thing for us to do. tomorrow night. Ah fuck! I'm gonna fart. Oh fuck it! I see the be out. They can sense these things ! Something like that. You're lucky you missed me, you're big feller! How's your big alsatian? Alright. Ah, let me tell you Bruce. Up Bruce! Up! Up! Up! Go on ! Up here! Sit! Stay! Yes Leigh! Alright. Willie won't get me now, will he now? Bruce! Kill! What did you say? Not too sure. He wouldn't do anything! Not too sure. And Willie will probably just fucking step in one of them. Somebody's car's been done in last night anyway. That's a nice ! Did you see her? Yeah. I don't think we should or whatever. Why not? Did you ever buy, buy one? Bruce. Back, back a bit boy. Do you ever want a ? You want one which . Who's is it? Where you going? Is he, is he not well? Shut up! No, he's not with Willie. He wanted you. He'll never be. What did you get up to tonight? Grandpa is the dining room. Grandpa. What? Grandpa is in the dining room. Oh! And he's on the game now. That's pretty good! I'm gonna meet you under the duck pond and whe , when he gets back. Oh you dirty dog! No, that's dirty. I'd rather trying to spare thought for your grandpa Willie. Any luck? She had , I heard. S s so, where did she go? I guess we're going fairly straight. Head over there. I think I'm just gonna go. You just call him Leigh. Bless him! The wee dog. Woof! Woof! Woof! I'm a dog ! I think she's a bit scared of the look at the way the dog's heavy breathing. What? Bruce! You were . Bruce! Bruce! Please! And the police are investigating a heavy breather here today over the telephone. Well that should make it up to something. . They'd never be able to chase it! What's the ? Are you oh ho hey hey ha ah! That's enough! Yes. I said perhaps they get them on . Just go out. But I'll taste it. Let's see if they can smell the money printed up. It's fucking horrible! We'd all fucking taste of ! Go on! Go on ! Up! Up! Up! Up! Up! Over here! Come on! Are you supposed to have shoes here? Bruce! Come on! Try and get my shoes , I knew they would. Bruce! Come on! Bruce! Come on! Come on! Come on! Come on! No, not me! No! Erm Come on Bruce! Erm Come on Bruce! Come on! Come on! Wrong way. Bruce! Oh shit! Bruce! Go get! about that. Where to? Get him a fucking ! Bruce! Oh Bobby! Oh you stupid fucker! This way. Fucking die! Where you going now? Look at that there! On the other side there. You go down and get . Okay. Usually I let him go on the . Aye. I know. Can't wait for the dogs. You call that a part where he is. There they are there. Where? So it is. They're there under the bridge. You see the red coat. Bruce! Jump in with the canoes! It's a fucking elephant! Aye, Leigh's ma is like an elephant. Oh! You fucking bastard ! Go on! I'm alright. Tell him. Tell him. Oh where are you going? Well yous fucking walking about here or I'm dead! He's away chasing Oi! that dog. oh that dog's away . And do they have to know Are they allowed to come in here? Dunno. about my goodnight girl . Waiting for something? We're waiting for the rain to stop. Oh I see. It used to be Yes. back here anyway. Caught up in your wishing well . Is that your dog there? Yes. Go after her! Bruce! Up! Up! Up! Up Bruce! Sorry!is er . Bruce! He loves children. Where you been boy? Jump up! Jump up! Jump up! Jump up Bruce! Jump boy! Jump up Bruce! He's scared. Well I don't fucking ! Fucking hell! Will you show me? I did. Got a new coat Julieanne, I mean it's fucking Debby! I know you wasn't was you Leigh? Ho! What? Ho! Ho! Are you sure? Were you? Yes. Seriously? Like that. Don't call me fucking daddy! How do they Can I get a smoke off you Julieanne? Get up here! Up! Ah la la la la la la la! Ooh! That's awful! I don't think leave . Bruce! Bruce there's two against one there! Come back and get this one. Come on out. How about there? Christ! I saw her. I saw her. Shall I get Bruce out of there? Oh aye. Shall I get him? You go and get the other one. Bruce! Wait for me! No he didn't. Bloody dog went in there! Come on! Bring it back boy! That's it, Bruce. Push Albert in. Jump on Albert. People must be getting home. What? People must be getting home. What? Bruce. Jump in that . Who's ? Bruce! Come on! Here! are you? You'll have to sort them out there Mark. I know. I realize you're not. Somehow I think you are. What? Bruce! Up! Sit! Stay there! Sit! Sit down! Sit down! Sit! Bruce, sit! You said jump up by me and not sit, like. Sit down! Obedient dog! I know. Bruce! Sit! Jump! I could teach him that one! Jump! Here! Sit. Just think, he has a . Bruce, stay! Bruce! Swans. Stay! Good dog! Eh? I thought . Swans, Bruce! Seize! Get them! Swim with all those ducks! Bruce! Bruce! Bruce! Leave! Come here Bruce! Come here! Actually they will be stuck in the mud. Go! Go! Bruce! Up! Up! Up! You dog! You dog! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Lay down! Silly sod! Lay down! No! Stay there! Oh look! See who I see. That is The peg. that's what do you call her? De Deborah or Is her name Deborah or not? What do you call her? Flirt? Aye, I think it's . No. It's Debby ? Aye. Would you or wouldn't you? Wouldn't. Wouldn't. What do you want? What do you want? You're sti You're stinking Bruce! You are stinking! Dirty him! Dirty him! Plenty of . Don't dirty me, Bruce! Sit Bruce! Sit! Sit! Sit here. Brilliant! Bruce! Si , ah you sod, ah! Are you getting wet? Ha! Bruce! Bruce! Bruce! Hup! Hup! Hup! Hup! ! Ow! Back! Ah la la la la la la! Kill! Maim! Oh you're daddy's is all stained at the back and at the arm. Right then. Right elephant. Is that just her natural mother then? Shut up! Ha! I think it's gonna be good! Hoping, I'm hoping. I'm hoping. What do you want? Your stinking Bruce! Sit down! Aye, er have him back! Eh? You soon be fucking will be! Oh that's swollen. It's just one bigger than the other. Her bad ankle's swollen. Bruce! Bruce! Bruce! Bruce! Bruce! Bruce! No Bruce! Don't tell the dog, no! No! Hey! Yeah. Hey Bruce! No, that's not nice. Bruce did that to another dog. He's laughing ! I'll tell how I stopped him. Bruce! Up! Up! Up! Come up here, Bruce. Bruce, here! Come up over here. Come up here! No, wait here Bruce, don't go up there. Do you think he'll go over. I'll be laughing the other side. I shall be watching him. Great! When your dog barked, the other dog will bark again. No! Not this dog. It's not his. Ah? Ooh, caught up in your wishing well . Ooh ooh! Yeah, you've come out with the right words haven't you ? Oh! Oh! Oh! , you'll have a laugh. No! Christ! He ain't gonna fuck hit him! Take your love and promises . Mm! Smell nice now! Well Joanna she won't . like my car or something. Bruce! Bruce! Here! You got it on there? Aye . Fuck me! What the hell's wrong with twenty minutes! function engineer is responsible for issuing to the client. That's, yeah. Replaces urgent work. Yeah. That's er procedure D two stop three. And that's the simplification is it? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Two two It is. It's, it's sort of following the demise of part of er Trevor's empire. Thus making it even cheaper. For to a smaller an empire. I should use that word, that was used very loosely that word cheap. What? Cheap? I mean I'm briefed on that. Mm. Okay. So the urgent work procedure has now been removed to make life easier. D two And to let the client know where the job lies within our organization. Good. Given a point of Straight into a function and that function head will then s write to the client saying, I've got it. My project coordinator is Mr X, and then we've got the point of contact established straight away. There are quite a few fairly minor changes to the appointment contract procedure but I haven't, I don't pretend, intend briefing those because I think most people can read. Right. So they should be aware there, there are some. Yeah. Right? Er J two stop zero. Trainees training report file. Yes. Erm there is a requirement that all trainees and new starters within the group, who are having training reviews undertaken, will maintain a training file. So they know where to find and we know where to find all their bits of reports and the like. Their performance reports, training r reviews, schedule of objectives etcetera. And that's J two stop zero. E five stop one. Contract documents and specifications for works and bridges. E five stop one. Sorry. There is an X on it. Works bridges and Q and Q S. Erm there is now a standard pro forma for identifying liquidated damages. The project engineer to agree with the client what the liquidem liquidated damages ought to be. And there's a pro forma that goes through to the quantity surveyor's section. P on it either. Mhm. Eh? yours Erm got P on. No. Con H five stop two. Contract variation orders. Erm contract variation orders are to be signed by the project engineer, irrespective of value. Er subject to him of course having the nec necessary financial authority from the project manager or the client. There are Mm. arrangements in here that if it's in the middle of a possession and the project engineer cannot be contacted, then obviously the resident engineer can sign it. Erm but obviously there's er a, a need, the need to advise the project engineer, and the project manager, erm following the possession. Can I, can I raise a small point on that? That is Mm. a number of my staff have repeatedly asked me the question, what is a project engineer? And I've told them what a B E S one is and they said, why? Why are works ones different then? Why couldn't They aren't. M S ones be project engineers? In works? And yet in B E S they're only twos and threes? Could be anybody. Well. Project engineers are You've lost me. T T O and S T O level. Surely not. But you would erm you would allow an S T O, to sign a V O of any value? The only people who sign Point, good point. V Os are those who are delegated within the contract to do Mm. so. Yes. That's what it says though don't it? . And that's what it says. The value of authority from the client. Yeah. So it will be in your letter of delegation Yeah. which brings up the main point and that is we have got to make sure that those people who are nominated or delegated within the terms of the contract, are people who have the knowledge and experience Mhm. Yeah. to discharge Mhm. that duty. Mhm. Then there's, I, I, I'm the only person. quite a long time now I begin to understand there are M S twos and threes are project engineers, and I Not necessarily. No. Er They can be. That was certainly my understanding and certainly No. if that is not the case then I'm gonna have to change the consultation documents because No. It's terminology isn't it? No. Because, because the consultation We've documents clearly set out to the staff, what I thought was our collective understanding of the section engineer oblique project engineer relationship Right. that section engineers at M S four level er acted as project coordinators or looked after their own element of the Yeah. work, negotiated the er The fee the fees Yeah. and the remit with the client, and then delegated to, the work to a project engineer. And the project engineers were M S twos on medium jobs, small jobs, and M S threes on larger jobs. And they were supported by a pool of engineers and technicians at Mm. M S one and P N T created . Yeah. But why can't the engineer at M S one level be project engineer Because his responsibilities are different. in, in terms of Well. That's fine your using a name. Oh no. He's responsible. No. Because within, within our, within our procedures and our quality systems, the word project engineer crops up quite a lot. Project team Yeah. But it's, it's not defined as er an M S two or an M S three. I mean take the example that Hugh is always using, is that if I wanted to knock a wall through, a hole through that wall and put a door in there with a link in it surely to goodness we Right. don't need an M S two. If that's Mm. the case then can I suggest that we define within our quality systems, that project engineers will be M S twos or above, for check categories of zero or above, and that for jobs with a category of double zero Oh no. they can't be beneath Very, making it very rigid. Yes. You see what our policy is M S two except b except by exception. For instance erm we would give certainly the better M S ones the smaller jobs to project manage, but that has to be very carefully thought about. Project engineer. Project engineer. That's right. What happens if everybody wants to panel view this Now I would imagine if we had suggested In broad terms I would imagine that if we'd suggested that project engineering duties would beco Could be done at M S one At M M S one and S T O Thank you. We wouldn't have, we levels the then wouldn't have no M S threes. then none of our M S threes would have come back at M S three. What concerns me is the project engineers are in close liaison with the client, and have a lot of procedures to go through that er S T Os and M S ones at design engineering level do not have to go through. They do have a much greater responsibility. And particularly I mean just signing the V Os, because if it's cocked up, the question's been asked of me. You know. If you have an S T O, in a sense if you don't define what the project engineer is, what grade he is, he can sign off unlimited amounts of money. . It doesn't seem right does it? I it seems, well No. But the point t that Hughie makes is that y you allocate er y you, you make the project engineer someone who have trained, and, and that you know is capable of doing that job. Yeah. Well I can think of one M S one in our er office who I'd be quite erm quite happy with him doing all the project eng engineering duties except finance. Because he, he just has you know a very slap happy er attitude towards finance, but from an engineering point of view you can trust him Mm. so this means you daren't give him anything now. Well in that case I wouldn't put him on er on a job that was made out on site but I would keep him in the T as far as the allocation of, of erm the project engineering responsibilities, that forms part of the quality plan. That, that, that he is given a note as part of the quality plan saying, here you are son, you are now project engineer. These are your duties. You are responsible for that job and you are identified on the project quality plan check list as to what you will be doing and what other members of the team will be doing. He couldn't live, live by it. You know it d the first thought bloody hell. If you don't want to use it don't use it. S T O with unlimited signing power. There's an anom anomaly here. But if you don't want to use it don't And anyway he can't, he can't actually spend, spend this money unless he's got Oh yeah. Oh yeah. auth authority from the project manager. But there may be, there may be I think we're discussing two issues here. Can we, can we bottom the V O Yeah. one as a start . I don't see there's a problem with the V O one, because It's nobody nobody can issue V Os unless they're delegated to do so, in, in the letter that's signed by me. I rely on you gentlemen And, and they have got the permission of the project manager to spend that money. Yeah. Correct. Yeah. I rely on you gentlemen to make sure Too right. that the people who are delegated, are competent to discharge those duties. Yeah. An and I must admit that I wouldn't, I would not expect to see anybody delegated within the contract at less than M S one level. Because I just don't think they i they're competent to do the duties of the engineer's representative, because you need a knowledge of the contract. Tt. Well. There are some jobs that, that we get involved with are very very small We've had John on Yeah. John 's been on jobs and he's er Well. He's been as the R E, which is reasonable to be fair. Yeah. So's Steve We as R E. We Delegated to issue site instructions? Yes. But not V Os? Not V Os. Well. No. Th the, the letter of delegation Pardon? is very specific because Yes. the contractor is very specific. Yes. But we need The contract sorry is very specific. I'm not being funny but we're nitpicking now at the difference between Yeah. site instructions and V Os. No. No. Well. No. No. We're not. No. We're not. Site Yeah. instruction does not involve any er any a a an Financial . any financial commitment. And it doesn't change the contract. So I mean B t t The reason why, no, the reason why these, these but they do. procedures were written is because in the past we had that foggy situation Mm. Mm. and I wanted to clarify that, and make sure that our procedures actually were back to back with contract procedure. So I think in terms o of this particular erm procedure, we're okay. Mm. Where, where we're not okay is in the point that Jim has raised, the general point and that is, what do we mean, what do we d define as a project engineer? So junior junior R Es then will not issue V Os. Unless they're delegated t to do so within the contract and I rely on you to make sure that whoever is delegated to issue What if they're,wh what if they're below M S two level? No no. No R E will issue a V O. They might do if they're M S two I mean the project engineer If it's the project engineer. Yes. Yeah. Fine. specifications here Trevor? With regards to? On one two or Yeah. three?does it use the word th the term No. project engineer? Definitely not in the erm er in the M S ones. I it involves Does in the two and threes. about erm Does in the two and threes. Does in the two and threes. Yes. Cos senior in a lot I mean th that's the title. Senior project engineer and project engineer. Yeah. Cos that's, that's where my understanding was. Oh. So it's a different issue now. That's the second issue that you've brought up. It is. Well. I wanted to bottom that one because I think it's a fairly easy one to do. Then, then go on to Jim's point of, come on lads. What do you mean by a project engineer? Mm. So that's okay. And that's the, so let's put that to one side and let's, let's debate Yeah. We'll start that with questioning Jim's point. my office. Mm. Mm. Yeah. There isn't a definition then within the procedures of what a project engineer's duties are? Yeah. The first book on the left there Dave by the big fat volume that's called To, to the left of your, your omnibus. That's it. Ta. Where? Wha what do we want a project engineer to do? I want him to do an M S two or three . What do we want him to do? Come on. . Manage that project. Through from conception to completion. Un unfortunately it raises the question of the project coordinator whose role Mm. Mm. talk to you about you know ne next week Mm. because it's all rolled into the same thing. Right. I say it's Shall we leave it till then? responsibility. Right. Let, let us leave it till then because I mean otherwise we're gonna get bogged down in this and whe when we really are briefing procedures. Yeah. But you've raised a very valid point and it's one that we need to see through to the end. I can s I can see The role o of I can see what you're driving at. the role of a project engineer is defined in Q S P six. Which Roger hasn't seen yet Yeah the role but he but it is the day to day d detailed development of a project to meet the cost specification and timescale defined in the client's remit. Undertake the requirements of the project quality plan. Undertaking all design construction, installation to meet all necessary current standards, statutory requirements,a and the civil engineering design manual er safety manual. In a broad sense. Mhm. Which seems alright. Yeah. L let us then debate, I mean you actually have a load of projects which are maybe two or three thousand pounds apiece Mm. where I presume you would just wanna hand that out to some guy and say get on with it. And that guy may be an M S one. The problem is a lot of those are not being managed properly by the M S ones, M S twos. Right. We will Yeah. Okay. Let's debate that then when we get together. Thanks for raising it Jim. Fair point. Have you read what It's, it's important that we nail it down very very quickly because the clients' reports depend very much upon the input of the project engineer. Project engineer. The only, the, there is only the project engineer can get into the databases to put anything in, or, or their clerical support, to get anything into the general notes about that particular Yeah. project. I think we're meeting early next week isn Yeah. Tuesday isn't it? Tuesday So we'll bottom that Tuesday. Okay. Could I briefly go back to liquidated damages, because there's nothing in the procedure, I think, that says what happens when you send that form to the client, he says, I haven't a clue. What do you think? Cos that's exactly what's gonna happen. Because I've seen Oh dear. that form before and they will not know what to put on it or what they You may be l well be right there. Maybe to tell them what liquidated damages They need leading by the hand gentlemen. Can't we just put a clause We need, we need, no. They don't. Organize everyone by us. Perhaps we should set the course up. Course up and . Eh? Absolutely I like that. Yeah. No. It's very frustrating because I've never never known a client who knew what his losses were. We'll run a course for project managers. As Hugh, Hugh is indicating that th that we have got a degree of expertise and we should be offering that expertise to clients. Well we can tell him how much we'd be charging them to . No. No. No. What we've got to do is say, look, within the terms of the contract This is what . this is what you have to do. You have to make a genuine pre-estimate of your losses Mm. so can we talk about what your losses are? We w suggest that you have losses under the heading of er Mm. disruption to traffic, loss of revenue, so on and so forth Mm. and I think we have er a a part to play in that. Mm. What about my extra costs? And your extra supervision costs. No. I was thinking about the client's extra costs. Oh. Then the gain actually. overrun by three weeks the fact that we've still got our supervision Yeah. But, but we put that in. Yeah. But during Not only that Yeah. But we, we should be prompting them. course that we know about it. Well there's the fact that he might have borrowed the money for a ten million pound project, and he can't have a use of it because it's named and he's paying interest on that ten million pounds. Extended plus services for diverted traffic and so on. be discussed. Yeah. Yeah. So what Good. it needs is it needs us to have an input with their project manager to evaluate them. That's right. A and the forms as it stands picks up most of the points that we've just raised. Does it have a box for us to put our costs in? Oh yeah. It starts off with that. Thank god for that Th they're, they're, they're not our costs Terry. They're his costs. Yeah. Mm. I mean we charge him. Correct. He's the one that No. But Correct. Why? And we can tell him how, how much we're gonna charge him but it's up to him or whatever. I mean quite clearly with something like this, when we start using it, it's gonna throw up all sorts of Yeah. problems. Mm. We have, we have had that form kicking around for quite a long time and it's never really been Right. It's easier for Well now is the time for everyone to be aware of it. That's right. We're now proceeding Brendan and Joyce did a twenty five page memo. Mm. What on liquidated damages? Next. Shut up . S safe, okay. Procedure K zero stop one, safety related admin. I'm making the point that man management procedures erm, sorry, safety instructions and information and safety information will not be issued via management procedures. Management procedures w will relate, will only contain procedures relating to the admin of safety matters. Yes. Good. Excellent Go back to the clerical section You, you'll, you were instrumental about I've been fighting this b that my friend. I've been fighting this battle for four years and we've eventually got there. Mm. Good. Good. Next. It was Erm maintenance and use of portable electrical apparatus K nineteen stop one. The safety one. Er it talks about erm Safety admin one. Safety admin one. The functions clerical section, section maintaining registers. Business and planning manager will ensure a contract's in place for routine inspection. Business, and business manager will ensure that inspection reports are forwarded to the function heads after inspections. And there's talking about labelling of defective equipment and what have you. Good. And I've been ordered to . Right. Mhm. By plant well will be by plant . Right. Erm M for mother four stop one, payment application by contractors. Erm there are quite a few in, in this series which follow the same sort of thing is that er, all projects all jobs on site er will have a quantity surveyor from Dave 's section. Erm and will Eh? Nominated. to do all the post-contract measure work. Nominated. Come on. Let's, what you're doing is you're winding them up Den. I'm not. I can't believe Dennis would be mischievous enough to wind anybody up on p on a subject that he's so disinterested in. That's, that isn't Yes. Go on. I've been told to change these procedures to. just taken the knife out of your back. Right. The project Q S is responsible for agreeing all site measurements, normally attaining these personally. However when specifically requested by the project Q S, the resident engineer or the project engineer may obtain this information. A project Q S is responsible for agreeing all valuations and for processing all invoices for payment for physical work, and passing these to the client for payment. So what's the change? Because on many jobs certainly smaller jobs, er the resident engineer or the project engineer would be doing the And normally normally they will do that and in, in the future Well Yes it will. they can say, yeah,th the project Q S is just gonna say, measure me all That's right. I haven't time to go and do that. What I'm looking for, this is part of I know Sorry. this is part of the the spirit. The reason this came about Dennis, is because some people were, were playing ducks and drakes. And the spirit of the exercise is that we will work as a team, and the most cost-effective procedure will exist. And in m in many cases the most cost-effective procedure will be for the lad on site, the R E or the assistant R E to measure, and provide the measure to the Q Ss who will put that forward and process that in the way they do now and send out a certificate. And I don't see anything contentious about that. Can I take it that if I don't, I don't like how it is worded then, because I don't think you said that. Sorry to No. It, it was worded that way because there are It says the project Q S is responsible for agreeing all site measurements . That's what it says. Yes. He is responsible for that. He is. And he may delegate that He may delegate to I agree with you but and in many cases will delegate that. He is also responsible for the valuation He has raised it with the contractor. It doesn't say that here. It does. But there's no . The letter of delegation normally says that It says, normally it says, normally obtaining them personally The letter of delegation has always said that Q S will measure Yeah. Yeah. Measure the works re In, in, in, in the past words. the resident engineer has been doing the measure and also agreeing the valuations. Well I don't think Now what Hughie's saying is that that will be done Th that responsibility mutually valuations because we've got this Mm. Perhaps you do. which, which Personally I don't think really there's a need for a great deal of site measurement. I think, I think it should all be, you know, basically it should be done from The offices. because they've dug a big hole doesn't mean you measure the big hole. It's all part of the measuring anyway. You're paying for the hole they should have dug provided it was at least as big as they In accordance with the and the er the what do you call it? Yeah well. The Preamble. preamble. Can I take it then, that these items will be clearly defined when the project coordinator discusses with the team quantity surveyor at the Who does what. Yes. Who does what because Yes. I don't want any more s in instances where the quantity surveyor thinks he's got a certain fee that he's working to, only to find out later Hear hear. on that somebody's knocked it down by half and not told him. Because that causes all sorts of problems on the report and, and bad blood all round. Course it did It's not what team work's I mean I, no. I would reiterate that my objective is a very simple one, and that is to give the client the most cost-effective service we can. Er with this instruction, it will get picked up on the quality Co in accordance er check list. Good. Good. Could I could I, could I ask that B E S be taken off the distribution codes. We do not use quantity surveyors for that purpose and indeed the quantity surveyor is not geared up to do any measurement for us. So you want that The answer to that is rewriting then? No. Because I think that there should be no reason why the Q S shouldn't provide you with that service in the same way as he provides anybody else Jim. Unless there's But he's, but he's not geared up to do it. But you've got erm a Q S then. We have. I'm not too sure that means . Well I think, I think bloody robots we all were. in there like. electrical away isn't it? Mis yeah. Mister Metal. That's wound the buggers up. Metal Mickey. really Metal Mickey. Well that's really a bright spark. You know. Yeah. What I'm But erm what I suggest is these procedures are, we briefly mentioned this this morning, are supposed to reflect the best practice of what we do now. Yeah. That is not what we do now. That is actually saying to the Q S, you've now got authority to come in to B E S and effectively do what you do on the civil side. And what I'm saying is he's certainly not geared up to undertake that task. And that certainly hasn't Jim? been debated. On, on, in many cases Mm. Go on. I mean if I took your line, your, your logic and maybe I'm misinterpreting it, er we would not have changed anything when B E S came into, to our organization. And one of the most significant changes I wanted to make, and I think we have made was that the, the letting of contracts and the vetting of contracts and so on would be done by our Q Ss, in the same way as it is for the civil work Indeed. for a very simple purpose and that is that it, it improves our internal control. Yeah. It puts an in a a almost er an independent view in there, of the costs and valuation of variations and so on. Now I, I think perhaps you're worrying unduly, Jim in so far as, your, your men will continue to administer contracts in the way they do now. The they still issue the certificate to the client, which is signed off price correct. Yes. For them to sign off price correct, they have got to have had a look at the measure. Haven't they? Well they don't. That's just it. If we're to be, if we end up being audited on that, then we will fail the audit because we do not do that. That's what I'm saying. That is supposed to say what we do and what I'm saying is Yeah. we don't do that. I'm not saying we shouldn't do it I'm saying we don't do it. Well I'll leave that for you to manage. And, and procedures procedures should not say what we don't do. I, I agree with you. They should say what we do do. Or . Or what we ought to do. Yes. Oh no. No. No. Ah! If if we're not complying with the procedures that's a different Well it, I mean if we go down that a different ball game. path er Jim then we're gonna have er five or six set different volumes of procedures. Yes. Because we all do things slightly different at present. If that is necessary then that is of course what happened and indeed in many cases that is exactly what happened. There is nothing wrong You have a dif with that. But, but, but you have a different quality system for different offices. But Hughie is Well you, you have to do in some cases . Yes. But Hughie is saying as far the works office is concerned, he wants to regularize the system with this procedure. And as I understood you Yeah. again, you wanted the, the, to regularize the system with within the B E S office. We well I do, unless that doesn't make sense. Now I can't see why it doesn't make sense, but if Jim came to me and said, look Hugh, that's bloody silly. I mean our objective is to give the, the client a good efficient cost-effective service, that doesn't meet those objectives. But D Dave, Dave, Dave could not handle, in B E S, what he handles on the civil side. In what respect? H he is not staffed up to do what could quite easily ask you to do all the erm Running around the actual measure the site measurements, but the agreeing, the valuations, and the processing of the invoices, he does himself. And that is w well within what this procedure says. I mean he does the invoices now doesn't he? Well I understood so. Or the, the certification to the client. Yes he does he does the certificate. Yeah. So really all it, all the, this would involve them doing would be to say, would you project engineers er or, or engineers collect the in information on site, provide it to the quantity surveyors so they can check it against the spirit of the contract, and make sure that er what's proposed to be certified they're happy with. Well it doesn't say that though. Yes. It Sorry. It's Let's What I'm, what I'm saying is if, if you want to really stir people up, bring in a procedure within telling them what you're doing, and then imple implement it at a later date and people will say, this is not quality. Hey Jim You will the reason why we're the reason why we're doing this now is is to Right. try and achieve that objective. Mm. Not t to drop it straight on them but to say. look, this is one we're introducing this is the way we in in intend to use it. Mm. I mean there might be the odd situation, the big job, where the Q S would need to go and Right. get involved in the measures on some of your work. Well he doesn't. That's what I'm saying. He hasn't done yet. You can't have that, he doesn't. Have a word with Dave and ask him himself Dave Dave was a party to this s D Dave, Dave wrote this procedure. did the change. Well you may be certain he didn't consult with me. Yeah. And that's the point I'm making. Mm. These procedures should be manag you know part of management consultation, not part of the Dave writes it, if he like says, well that's what we'll do for B E S, and then, and then I'm told, oh, that's what we do for B E S, I tell staff, and that causes a great deal of unrest in staff. Hey Jim why? Why back on him? Jim. Cos I haven't had an opportunity to do it to Why should B E S be a different, a different situation from bridges or works? Well in, in theory certainly probably there is no reason for it, but in practice, it hasn't happened yet this is the point. It hasn't actually happened. Yes. You're, you're implementing a procedure here that doesn't exist, is what Jim's saying. You're implementing a procedure Within B E S. which says you're gonna do this Right? Sorry. Sorry. No. It doesn't say that. This procedure should say you do this. That's what we're doing at the moment. Right. he's quite right in saying book is an instruction. Yeah. And Jim's quite right in saying, it does not happen. But it's not the first time that a procedure's Finished. come out early. So you've implemented a procedure for wh which you haven't set up you haven't even looked at the resource information but can be briefed We are introducing a procedure. Yes. And in order to c come in and say like that? No. why don't you do this? And I could say well I, I've never done this. I can't do this, and Q S is not geared up to do it. What ? And straight away we say, well this procedure, doesn't work. Yeah. But it's Right. Yeah. come out, it's come out early. Damn it all. We had a procedure erm about senior project engineers, er about two years before we We've gotta keep repeating that. Er does it? put that into the bridge office in Mhm. intended . Right. The thing with this , the thing that puzzles me a bit er Just because you booked that on this, and I'll reiterate this, is the process that we go through as I understand it for introducing procedures, is that we take a diagonal slice through the organization er in other words there's a draft procedure produced. That is sent round to people who will have been involved. They have the opportunity to input, it is amended er taking account of, of the comments Taking account of some of the comments. It can never take account of all the comments. Of course it can't. It will always be compromise. But by a very virtue of the draft going round and being commented on people are aware then We don't see . Mm. all the drafts No. Wh what wh where going on. that falls down Hugh, is that people assume because they've commented that, that when it comes out in its final version it'll reflect their particular comment. They never get a feedback saying, thanks for those comments but I've those because, because I thought somebody else's comments were more a lot more slice . No. No. Not not, not It's just a modification from Yeah. the slices L lots of the revisions are not sliced and certainly in, in cases like this where Mm. it is a er er a specific Direct. request or a direct request that something is changed, then it is given to in this particular case the Dave s of the world or other function heads and told I would still like to issue that. Er a and I think we issue it and then t in Jim's situation, erm I think what you tell your staff is that this, this has been issued, and we are gonna find a way of erm working it in your organization. Or if it is impossible to do so then we will have to have a look. Well surely it, it just means that in in Jim's organization I, I don't see the problem. that when specifically requested w will apply in in ninety nine percent of the cases. That will be reflected in the quality plan anyway. So Yeah. where's Yes. the problem? Mm. Yeah. I, I don't see a problem . but when your project coordinators talk to In concept there should not be a problem the erm You might not have a problem Q S in four weeks time. with Dave but at the moment if we're audited tomorrow Well as I understand it, this is what's happening at Well I still don't present. I don't, I still don't No. But accept that. at present effectively that He agrees valuations. Mm. Mhm. And he can delegate the site measurement to your staff. And in most cases will do. As long as it's a you do your And he processes the paper. And once you do a quality plan for that, that delegation . anything to your section at the moment does he? No. It's the other way round. Yes. Yeah that's true. For long enough I've said budget engineers run the job. Yeah. Where I mean our, invariably our in involvement is much greater than the Q S. Naturally. And many of my staff in s in not just but one or two others, see this as the tail wagging the dog if you like where somebody says, you will do so and so, or you know, I'm telling you you'll do this. Now it's how you read that into that procedure. That's the problem with it. There's no problem I I understand that. mean that, you know, why? Why should the Q S estimate all our work? Mm. The there is no real good reason Why he shouldn't. why he shouldn't other than the fact that keeping In fact there's a up to date. There's a very good reason why he Could he do that? should. Perhaps. Is he doing that now? No. No. No. Not yet. No. But he does, he does all yours. I thought we had a Yeah. procedure that said they did it. Aha. We do. Yeah. B E S? Well you told me I mean come on it's the same ball game. Yeah. I mean I It is the same ball game and, and as far as I, as far as I'm concerned it makes more sense So why aren't the Q S for B E S work now? And P Way work? And P Way work cos that's what you've said it does and you, you're We are doing. I'm afraid I'm not helped much We are doing. I'm, I'm gonna call a halt to this here because without David here who Right. knows the detail we, all we're gonna do is enjoy the sound of our own voices. I think. So what I'm, what I propose, is that this goes out because I don't think it changes anything significantly. Erm Jim you, you, you need to present it in a certain way to your staff, and er after you've considered that, if you don't feel it's workable then I think you need to talk to David and I. Yeah. Well I've already, for a number, a number of cases, spoken to Dave about it. And he knows this can't be worked. That's why Well I I'm rather surprised that it's, we're Will it work? still perpetuating this Well alright then. The other option a and, and, and the S on the M as it were. Yes. Right. The oth the other, the other option is for us to hold that. because it was supposed to be briefed last Mm. month. Well in that, in that case when I've seen, I've seen all this Mm. in that case when It is ours. Well we can't We've got a Right. In that case Jim you say to your staff that you're gonna have a dialogue with Dave and myself, with a view to confirming how it will be implemented as far as your organization is concerned. But surely we can still issue it, we can still brief This issue that issue? Of course you can. Yes. Well. It is work It's been issued Roger. I think, I, I personally, I think everyone's got to work to it until they find it doesn't work. Ca can't you just, can't Jim just brief his staff, but er as far as that's concerned w he takes it that the Q S has asked him to do all the site measurement er and that they will then produce the certification Mm. based on that? Yeah. The I only re yes by all means our project quality plan check list reflects that. . Naturally your Mm. your way out is to get D Dave to write a letter, saying for all projects I wish him to do Y no. No. No. Terry, Terry there's no point. All all that, all that That is stupid. All that Jim's trying to do the reason why Is to change I, I don't mean that in a disrespectful way. No. No. I know but It, it, it, it is stupid in, in so far as the more sens if we were gonna do that, all you'd do is you'd write the procedures in a different way. Yeah. The procedures were written in this way, because erm there was a move from a certain part of the organization to exclude the Q Ss from elements of work on an unreasonable to an unreasonable extent. Now if we work as a team and we work very sensibly and reasonably, it may wo may well be that the most sensible way of working is for the project engineer to decide who's gonna do the site measure. But at the end of the day these guys sign off price correct. These guys therefore must have a facility of ensuring that the price is correct, from an internal control point of view I want them to be involved in certifying that the price is correct. That is how we came to the conclusion that they should be I, I, I I certainly think there's a great deal of sense in it all. But we don't even measure yet . I, I've yet, I've got a, a major job on my hands to reeducate people and bring in systems for much more accurate measurement of our work. It's a very difficult job to measure is M and E. Mm. Well a lot of them are just because lump sums aren't they? Well I mean a lot of it can't be measured you know? Mm. Mm. Hundreds of miles of, of cables Cables on a site Trunking for example. Yeah. You know we we are not geared S s up to measure yet properly. And we need to be. Right. So I'm saying we're wa way off what the procedures are currently saying. A and all I'm saying is that and I rest my case Mm. is that If we came to be audited procedures should be what is happening, not what our aspirations are. No. I'm sorry. Particularly when they're long way . No. But, but when you're measuring something I don't want otherwise you finish up with five separate er management procedures . But also is it necessary. Jim So we can make let's issue that. Because You, David and I need to sort out what we need to do to implement it Yeah. and we will then implement it. For you. We've also gotta recognize clearly Dennis that civils and M and E cannot be stereotyped they are very very different engineering . I'm s not suggesting they could. And some management procedures cannot work very well in M and E as they can in civils. Not because Mm. you know we don't want to in, in, in the civils team or what have you. Indeed it works very well. But in some cases some procedures cannot be worked on M and E Yeah. engineering. They've got totally different algorithms. Well it is supposed to be talking about managing the system and not d not taking people's e professional expertise away from them. I mean but if Yes. if we are gonna have It is a problem. procedures which are, don't quite fit you, then I think what we ought to be looking for is a certain amount of common ground between your procedure and our procedure, so there is not something, you're doing something completely different to the way the rest of us are doing it. No. I totally agree with you. It's gotta be married together. Totally agree with you. cannot stereotype every function, under a management procedure. It just cannot work every time. Right. The on the, the, the, the procedures should be flexible er written in such a flexible way Yeah. that those idiosyncrasies of the different sections can be accommodated. Th they should reflect the best practice shouldn't they? Yes. The best practice in, sometimes in M and E is, is quite different from the best practice in the Mm. civils. Right. Le okay. We can talk genera generalities till the, the cows come home. I believe that, that that procedure could apply to you the same as it can to Roger and Terry Yeah. and Dennis and Alan. Er and if, if y if there is a resource problem then you David and I need to address that Mm. erm and find a solution. If when we address it we find that th the procedure is inappropriate, then we should change the procedure. I agree with you . Mm? Yeah. Okay? Er D two stop three, receipt of appointment contracts. Erm what we're trying to do here is to get the clerical sections more involved in the projects, and in passing the paper backwards and forwards. Er and we're identifying that the clerical sections are required to do a certain number of things when the project arrives, like erm recording the project in the index book, creating a correspondence file, creating project admin wallets, and the like. So it's sort of er three things we're trying to do there. What, what was the reference of the urgent work one? I, I've got that down as D two point three Was it three point two? Mm. I've got that down as tw D D two point three as well. Yeah. Very good. Mm. Mm. I wouldn't have spotted that. Aren't you observant. You're absolutely bloody right aren't you? Got two D two point threes? Mm. Yeah. But we seem to have, right, I'll, I'll take that point back. Okay. I'm sorry I shall have to fill in the noncompliance or a quick-fix report Dennis. If you if you would please Trevor. Yes. That's the system. Mm. You fell for that Trevor. I'm sorry I haven't got one with me. Right. Right. Well And I'll just plug that up that. We'll expect one from you then? I'll tell Trudy's So it's not D is it D two point three or not? I'll, I'll have to check with her another time. Right. Okay. Yes. Apparently we've got a mistake on the back of that form, that it referred to a noncompliance report, on the back, which is referring to the front but the front was called a quick-fix report you see? So I said, should I fill in a quick-fix report or a noncompliance report, to say that the quick-fix form, or is it a noncompliance report is wrong. Right. We'll get there. Erm He said I could leave it with him and he'd sort it out. there have er first mistake . there have been some fairly er minor alterations to the procedures concerning contract admin wallets er and the various client reports, er but Hugh did ask me to raise them at this meeting, er to remind people of the need to er complete client reports. Correct. And I've rai I raised it this morning. Right. And erm in the context of Regional Railways Fine. wanting them from us. Yeah. But I must say that we're using these client reports and managers within each section I know you are. the only one who is. are finding them extremely useful Mm. in keeping an idea of where the jobs are, Yeah. and the comments I'm getting back from the er the clients are very very favourable. Right. They do find them extremely helpful. Have you run off C any interim report from t the computer yet? No cos I wasn't too sure if it was available you telling me it is available. A as I said this morning t to the management team it is available. The only problem is as a one-off exercise on er existing jobs. We will have to put in er a summary of the existing remit. Including Right. all the variations and what not. And that's something that Mike and Ken will help dig the historical contracts out and, and suggest er a remit. Erm b cos, cos he, it prints a remit back out out the client . But it, it, it's ready When, when are we likely to, to have the contract reports available? The Q S the physical works The physical works. Yeah. We're gonna start specifying that now and Brian will, will er Right. will start to, to, to work that up. But of course that can become quite a complex thing depending on how much we want to sort of use it to produce certificates and things like that. Right. So that's gonna incorporate the Q S cost report as well as the physical works is it? Yes. Mm. Yes. A and that's, that's gonna be quite a complex erm Right. thing to specify. As it's a p it's a pound to a penny Mm. that, what we're doing at the moment, we won't want to b put it all in this system Fine. because it will be very complex. If you want to, if you start building a system that's gonna record every variation that's issued to the client and Make it simple. print it all back again. M see if we can make it Yeah. fairly simple. Could I just say at this point, this, this is one area where I would envisage us looking critically at what we're doing and, and, and, and altering things quite significantly over the next six months. Keep it simple and build up on it Beca if we need to rather Yeah. than go the other way. Mainly because we're doing, we're trying to read the client's mind at the moment. And w we we're putting together what we think the client wants. What I'm looking for is feedback from the clients which say, yeah, these reports are alright as far as they go but really I don't want all that information or I want this information. Or And I would hope that we, we we enter into that with th that spirit and Mm. we're prepared to look at the the client reports and change them so that they become as good as we, we can get them. Yeah. Is there anything within these It is the first step. for the prediction of fees? I mean we've just Yes. got something back from Intercity on the P S work where they're wa wishing us to predict to certain date what we're gonna be spending over the next six months. Nine months. the football ? Yeah. Yeah. Well Regional railways have asked for that as well. Have they? Yes. Erm that that Well Dennis er Roger's been doing for it for Leeds North West haven't you? He has. Yeah. But he's been doing it manually haven't you Rog? Yeah. Yeah. Be be because I don't think you can trust the forecast reports from DOPACS. I think y yo you could blip from month to month er, er as a priority slipped in or changed, or a person slipped out or, or somebody forgot to zero something or y It's too fragile isn't it? It's far too fragile. Mm. It it's there for us to, to use as a, as a sore thumb exercise to ask questions but, but to actually do anything er, er as critical as saying, we're gonna spend twelve thousand pounds next period and eleven thousand pound the period after and fourteen thousand the period after, er I don't think that's computer system's tying your hands behind your back. Yes. Yeah. Yes. So, so really we're gonna have to have a manual involvement or override there by the project coordinator to, to, to Well if, if you remember we, we agreed with Keith he would have a think that and a talk to Yeah. Roy er Roy You'd remind him about it Hugh. Yeah. But what I'm gonna suggest is that again we go back to the client, and say basically, this is what we think we can provide is that good enough? Mm. This is what you want. If we give you that we can give you it in a certain way, but it is not necessarily meaningful. Mhm. If we do this it will be a lot more meaningful. Is that acceptable? Yeah. One point Fine. that occurred to me where we could perhaps give them some flexibility, is that we could say, if that's not acceptable to you, we will delay invoicing. Cos now we don't have to pay interest on our fees,i if, if, if a jam's spread over six months a a a and it might risk and slip to nine months, we might do better to offer to jam spread it over nine months and only invoice for part of the money. Mm. Don't like the sound of that. Er the project engineer sits down and manually, let's be honest. No. Cos he's gonna just divide it by the number and it's it's It's it's a very minor part of the operation. Mm. I think you've got a little bit careful with lots of our jobs which have got very very small fees attached to them. Yeah. Yes. which It's, it's hardly worth doing. at the present time we're saying to on the monthly report we're saying to the client, we've spent three thousand out of five thousand, and their anticipated final cost is going to be five thousand. Yeah. And i he knows when we're actually gonna finish the job and therefore Mm. he can almost do that sum himself. Yes. I agree. Er er I think on a bigger job i it it's perhaps a different story. The trouble is Dennis a lot of our little jobs. a lot of our clients But on a bigger job you can, you can put the resource in can't you? Yeah. But a lot of our client's finance sections, don't see the difference between a big and a little job they see some pigeon holes in their spreadsheet and they want to put something in there. Anything. And th they, they've got this sort of But this is where we need to talk to the client Yes. Of course they are. isn't it? J j just agree with client he might, might be prepared to accept on a quarterly basis Yeah. you know? I mean we don't necessarily have to give him it every month. One could argue Yeah. if we're not careful we'll be causing him work. Oh. know what they want half of them anyway when they're Ah. Let us halt it there. the customers. Yeah. As er I said before. Let us sit down, Trev, and see what is sensible for us to provide them with. Go and talk to them and say look, this is what we can provide to you. It will be meaningful. Is that good enough? And the chances are they'll say, bloody hell, that's marvellous. Because what they're getting now is nothing. Mm. Well And I'll tell you what, what they're getting from us is infinitely better than they're getting from anybody else. You see even from Leeds North West the outside party job and the P T pay monthly, so it's important that the client knows what he's gonna be facing. But what we do is we estimate three months Mm. and divide by three. Yeah. Then you get an average, Not bad. you know, and that's, that's the way What's that mean? Mm? No. I think's it's quite generous Don't be mean . actually. Next one Den. Well. There aren't any more. Ther there have been quite a few that have come out recently which I haven't briefed. Some of them are fairly minor and it's to read them. Others which are perhaps a little bit of er a change from what we've been used to doing, Mm. are currently being revised yet again. So I'll pick them up at the next brief. Right. I think an hour of this is about enough isn't it? Den that was great. I mean I know there's been a lot of debate and I know that er you may feel it's been a bit of a waste of time but the fact that there's been so much debate If, if, if you say, Mary had a little lamb Mary had a it will go down in the Oxford Dictionary or something. Right. We've got that out the way. Accidents on site. Bridge office report. Fifteen four ninety three. Yeah. Right. You've got it? Yeah. We should all have received a report from Roger about one or two accidents that have occurred on sites. One, both were dumpers I think weren't they? I haven't seen that. Haven't you? Team brief items here we are. There we are. Haven't you? Tt, tt, tt, tt, tt, tt They were sent down on time I think weren't they? You did. It was a very good report. Oh. Well. Just cos they came down doesn't make the bit of Here we are. It was dated the fifteenth of April nineteen ninety three. Erm and erm one was at Norfolk Park viaduct. A mobile access platform tipped over, and a steel erector was injured during its recovery. We briefly mentioned that one last time if you remember. He had his head jammed or something Yeah. Mm. I it shot up in the air Yeah. You mentioned The man basket Yeah. shot upwards and a man's head smashed on the steel girder. The helmet saved his life. So. I think that's worth briefing. Erm Briefed it last time. Yeah. Right? Okay. We don't need to do it this time. We didn't have the facts you see last time. Written down. It was al it was all facts verbally. Yeah. Next one is erm on Bridge three O six eight A, Reford. A dumper driver collided with a, a rapid metal development soldier and that's some p part of the temporary works. Striking Jumbo scaffolding. strike, that's right, Jumbo scaffolding,dr striking the driver on the leg. Okay? The other one on the same site was a driver, a dumper driver, a different one I hasten to add collided with the existing structure, crushing his chest against the steering wel wheel. And I'm Why? not sure Makes you wonder doesn't it? I will say that. It, it, perhaps there's something wrong with the dumper. Was it Doesn't it say whether it's the same dumper? Was it the same dumper? Yeah. No. It isn't. what are the recommendations? What are the report, what, what's in clauses what used to be thirty seven and thirty eight? Recommended course of action and stuff like that. We're not That's a good question Terry. Were these dumper drivers certificated? Why it happened? I mean I've of watching brief jobs for which we are not responsible. Oh. It's nowt to do with us then isn't it? Well. I'm I mean I'm not being facetious but what is the bloody point No. It's s in telling us I don't know why you're clogging our meetings up with somebody else's accidents. Because I'm supposed to report all accidents Yeah. to here. Yes. He is. It's it's my Mm. fault. I should Because not have put them on here without considering what you said there Mr . Yes. Thank you. Erm quite a valid point. The, unless we want to brief to our staff the potential hazards in er Mm. Well. the use of dumpers on er sites. I think we should. There are two points that I, you would be looking at normally if you were investigating it. One would be Crippled him. were the, were th were the dumpers in good working order and had Yeah. they been serviced properly? Which is something which happens which is done through R Es. And the other one is did the d what sort of certification did the drivers have? Yeah. Even if it was only a car driver's license. Mm. And did we er A a and subject them to a drugs and alcohol test Mm. afterwards. Oh ho A and was the er was their method of operating the dumper in accordance with the site safety plan? Or was he driving it backwards? Yes. or whatever. Yeah. I've seen dumpers driven over Upside-down maybe. two bits of sheet piling laid over a ditch and things. Right. Good. Thank you for those all the same Roger despite what was said. D do you want a little one from me then? Yes. That that near miss thing at erm Dewsbury. Oh. Yes. Please. This is where there wasn't an accident, thank God, but we did find out er we had nobody on site at the time. Work had been planned to be carried out during the possession on a Saturday night to carry out some pointing Ha we've had this one. only We haven't briefed it. We haven't briefed it. Did we not brief it last month? No. We haven't briefed No. We discussed it. We did it at the safety meeting. One which Yeah. Erm work was organized during to Saturday night during the possession which included people standing in the four-foot i in the tracks. And for one reason or another the subcontractor bowled up on site on the Saturday afternoon and decided to do it then. And he set up his own system of work using wal er er lookouts etcetera using er walkie-talkie radios and staff exposed themselves to danger by standing in the four-foot. His staff? his staff. Yeah. There was nobody else's staff around at the time. It's likely we will ban the contractor for three months from, at least three months, from doing the work Mm. although h he took a very professional erm attitude in dealing with the inquiry afterwards. And didn't hide behind erm didn't try to make any excuses. He said that it had been done wrong. He's actually sacked his own foreman, the main contractor cos the main, the foreman turned up on site and this I think is one of the lessons to be learnt, is that foreman turned up on site and saw what was happening and didn't stop it. Mm. And so condoned what was going on. Mm. And it's the major contractor. Er may as well tell you i it's So possession had already been arranged? For the night. The April the ninth. For the night. Yeah. Yeah. But they did it. Mm. Yeah. That's the only reason we found out, is our supervisor turned up to take possession, and the contractor's guy said, there's no point, we've done it. So. we've actually found it. Could have been an inquiry into a death. Quite easily. Er yeah. Thank you for that Terry It was at Dewsbury? Dewsbury station. Yeah. I think the message is there that er we took a dim view of it and we have now Yeah. removed them from our approved list for a, a period. Erm to show how serious we consider Mm. And the subbie by the way who did the work the incident to be. we're banning him for further and I'm gonna Whatever. saying, ban him for life. again. Yeah. Good. . What was his name? I'll let you know. In fact I'll let you have a copy of what I've got this Yeah. P Pa Pete I think. That's that's where we're likely to drop the clanger. Pete . Yeah. . Cos he might Ah. But Pete might just come out in his wife's name next week Mm. and start trading. You've got no idea. This subcontractor has worked for for a number of years. So. It's not a fly by night firm. No. Yes. Cos they'd be in . Well. He'd just Good. Job done. go to the wedding but Yeah. That's what's probable. Oh my God Alright. Okay let's have a look. Right? Next one. I'm gonna go into the erm the Irish route improvements thing we talked about this morning. Which Norm that. Yeah. I know about that. Okay. Right. Potential work. Erm Chris 's visit on the eleventh of June, I think we briefed last time? Yeah. Yeah. Er I think it's just worth mentioning again that it's still on and er I, I think er it is really more important than ever now for us to impress on Chris what good work we do because er of the changing situation within the industry. And the more people that know what good work we do the better. Provision of photographic services. Over to you my friend. Oh. Provision of photographic services? Right. Erm just to say that, just to confirm the note sent round that erm we will only pay for any photographic services by Intercity East Coast if it has been procured using a task request form in accordance with the same way we procure any other internal B R er service. Now. Surely if all we want is prints off existing things all you need do is a request with a DOPACS number? Yeah. Surely not you know fill in a task form in for print off a couple of negs. Is this the external Yes. request request for external Mm? services? Well. B b w w why? Why can't you just use a task request form that says. Please p Well. I mean please provide Prints off the following negative numbers four number eight by eight prints off these t off, off negative numbers so and so. Splendid. Are you gonna write And put the DOPACS number on. You're gonna on something. Yeah. Copy it to Andrew and then Andrew knows when the I B I S invoice comes forward that it's something to be Then he'll sign it off. paid for. Because we've got thousands of I B I S invoices that come to us that are not for us. And, and unless we've actually got an i er a request to back it up Okay. Good. Good. You're pointing a and it's come from Peter Oh. Will you stop being . You've got to do something wrong It's come from Peter Mm. they will not, they, they want to be erm procured in a structured way, such that they know they're gonna get paid. Mm. Right. That's it. I have, unfortunately have some view forms and it doesn't look as though we've got a an overhead projector. What a shame. We have. It's in the Permanent Way office's secure room. No. I mean in here. You . But you never told me to bring it down. No. But we could send for it. If Oh. No. No. No. Let's not bother. Alright. I'll, I'll quickly run through. What it is it's the Intercity core brief Oh! That's why I I've seen it. We've had it, a copy of it Have you got a copy of this? Yeah. Yeah. Good. Good, good, good, good, good. Have we? Yeah. What's it about? Does it tell us who's gonna own this It gives us feedback this line? on the core nine brief Aargh. It gives us an update on privatization reorganization most of which has appeared Anything? in Railnews. Right. And it gives us a er tt details of the current Intercity marketing strategy which is again Not interested in that either. Yeah. We, we have Good. That's right. And get a green ticket . So. They're encouraging people to drive their bloody cars Yeah. Burn more fuel and just travel on a train. Extra fuel Environmental . Yeah. It is. Next time any other business Right. So. Hello Den. I've I've just come back on that D two stop three. No. Sorry. Yes. Please do Den. Right. The, the D two stop three the work of an Ah. urgent nature Yeah. erm that was actually issued some time ago but wasn't briefed. But it was quite a significant change that we were Oh. So we d we D seven was er er work on emergent nature Yeah. Indeed. No. It's been put through as the procedures. Yes. Cos people D seven was the acknowledgement So. So that was to say that we'd w Yeah. withdrawn D two point three. Yeah. And now you've reused it somewhere else? And erm and subsequently we've actually withdrawn Withdrawn this particular D two stroke three. So if you look in your manual you've now onl only got one D two stroke Yeah. three Rather than two D one, right. A a a and the, and the, and the D seven bit is, is in a different section? Is covered by part D two stroke one. Right. Thank you Dennis. You're a good lad. Right. Could I just quickly look through here? I, I did have a go through this core brief to see if there were any things that I should have picked out. There there is a good section, there's a good section on pensions by the way because our staff will be concerned about pension proposals after privatization. Is it? It's section one point five. If you view files three to five. The main message I would give is that the Board has responded to the government with regard to the pensions issue, and suggested a number of improvements to the government's proposals. Yeah. The scheme The Board's did that didn't it? Yeah. the Board considers the B R employe employees who transfer involuntary involuntarily to the private sector should return an indefensible right to remain as members of the joint industry scheme . We've seen all that. But that, that's only a suggestion. It's not been Yes. Yeah. I mean wasn't this, wasn't this Well. They're not one of these things where they Let's, let's pick out something positive. they actually put forward some proposals, whereby what do you call him withdrew the clause and wrote another one which negated anything that was said before? Pardon? That sounds a wonderful idea when does it Who's what's her name? . Pass. What do you call the secretary of state? Freeman. McGregor? Oh. Freeman. Roger Freeman Secretary for Yeah. No. McGregor's Secretary of State. Roger Freeman's Transport Well. Transport Minister then. I, I thought that the Board had complained and put forward some suggestions. It said in the Mm. T S S A circular Whereby Freeman withdrew the clause, wrote another one which meant that you had to go back to stage one again. It wasn't very helpful. And that was in your T S S A circular Mm. about Right. a fortnight ago. I sus well, I, I found that quite interesting the bit on pensions. Th Yeah. th the bit that I found most interesting was at least the Board are trying to look after our interests in that respect. Er and I think it's, watch that space. Isn't it? Yes. Does that seem reasonable? Without wading through it all and things are moving on Yeah. fairly quickly. There's still nothing black and white. No. Gripping stuff isn't it this? Yeah. Right. N Nothing more there? If anyone wants to borrow the core brief, they're welcome to do so. Ken would like to read it. Ha we got, have we got a copy upstairs? Norman has a copy. That's fine. Well Nor Norman can brief them. Yeah. If he thinks so. If you think so. May I? Yeah. Erm and that's it. Good. Thank you very much. No rule review? Rule review. Have we finished Rule review and team brief. Shall I get? We've finished the rule review today at four. Can I, can I just ask one thing if we've finished I'm and any other business? Right. Plan printing. We're again Plan printing We're having problems with getting the drawings back from plan plinters I'm astounded. Are we I think we, we complained to you and you complained Er I Did I, I, I, I've I've had and a letter back this week from him. Forty eight hour turnaround? s saying saying that er he's had lots of erm glowing testimonials from our Complimentary letters would you believe? staff er and he assumes that er everything's back to normal and hunky- dory. Well. It isn't. I mean we we're saying we had things down there in excess of three days. And we're not getting them back, short Anybody else? Had those problems? It was just brought to my attention just before I came down. When we want urgent work done we've really got to turn the screws tight. It's hard work is it? Yes. It is. Yes. It is. There's no official mechanism to do it. Yeah. It's er You go down there on your hands and knees and you report it's not meet and then you Yeah. Is it? I, I'm only The er It's not a quality service Trevor. It, he has erm diluted the erm quality of service a d erm the performance specification he, he undertook to provide me with Mm. over the phone, because he said he was gonna be a two hour urgent work Mm. a and er by telephone arrangement if you want it quicker than that. And now it's suddenly two days yeah. but urgent by special arrangements. That's that's, you, you don't have to Do you work his own printer? Er that doesn't surprise me. Mm. Well. I mean Yeah. But he's only buying his own Ye printer so that when he's hived off he's got some Well. We might wish to consider using him if you've got problems with Mm. Plan Printing. Let Offices Services Manager know that. No. Because we're paying for the staff down there and the paper and Well. What the hell are we supposed to do? Well. As ask him for a refund on that much we haven't received from Yeah. them. What I was gonna suggest, what I was gonna suggest was that anything that we didn't get I mean if we're not getting the service why Anything that we didn't get to a timescale Don't we refuse to ? we should just go out to Prontaprint and invoice him for B b the But what? A lot, plenty of firms out there'll do it you know. We don't, we don't What happened whilst you were on holiday after that first few days off, the guy rang me up and said, hey some of your staff have been down er say saying we've got an urgent service that you can have in two hours. That's right. And he said , Who told you that? Mm. And I said, well, why we've just agreed that with Jilly . And he said Certainly did. he said, I'll fucking see about that. bet that's not in the Oxford Dictionary. L Ca can I suggest Can I rewind? that, that er that you respond to that letter from him Trevor and say that the information that we have from our staff does not correspond Yeah. with what he's put in there. We w And that we now propose We need a two hour se We need a two hour service. If he can't provide it, then we intend to obtain prints from er an external source and get the invoices sent to him. There's no point in telling him that, because he'll just refuse to pay them. We will just, let's, let's threaten him that, that might be a course of action that we're gonna have to re we will have, we will have gonna upset the staff . to er We'll obtain prices from outside for the work. And don't accept the bill for two staff. Right. Splendid. Well. We can always stop paying for the bloody machine that er Yeah. Mm. I mean we're paying I mean forty five percent There's no way we'll sit back and let him continue in this way. So we've got to tell him what the options are. Somebody has suggested that we train some of our staff up to use their machine. And I think it came out of the print room. What a good idea. No. It's not a good idea. There are all sorts of health and safety implications to messing about with erm erm Oh. Well. We'll get a core erm what do you call it? Er assessment? Yeah. And make sure that we provide our staff with the appropriate Fresh air, fans protection. breathing masks. I don't see that as an W w w what if He's won then hasn't he? Yeah. if he gets rid of his staff He's got rid of two of his he's got rid of two of his staff and we've had to go in and fill that breach. Trevor, if we're in business on our own and we want prints If we're in business in our own and we want prints we would decide on what the most economic way of getting them is. We would. Well. Let us now start investigating that. At the moment I'm happy with the service down there by the way. There's only Alan so far says he's got a problem. Anybody else got a problem? W w w we want to try and I think before we take any urgent action we ought to Alan ought to monitor the situation. Oh. Well. This is what we've been doing. I mean wh what I've After the last time we got a problem, Cos we don't normally act. we, we've, we've had prints down in there excess of three days. Now all I'm saying is that he undertook to give us those in forty eight hours. But all I'm asking is if there is an urgent work system, and if that urgent work system is being abused whereby everybody is putting down Yes. urgent work, They shouldn't be doing. which is pushing back his normal service Mm. Mm. surely the urgent work procedure's gotta be pr reviewed as well. It needs controlling. And it needs controlling. Which either means that somebody at my level or an M S three level or somebody, has gotta sign for the urgent work. Yeah. Where I'm Because all it means is that anybody's signing it urgent Yeah. work , do me one now. Yeah. Right. I'll It needs sorting out. I'll talk to . It it's very But where I'm puzzled a little bit by Terry, is about five minutes ago Terry said, people have got to go and beg and They have a urgent work get on their knees scenario. Yes. Yes. And then he said he was satisfied with the service. The normal work. The normal work service. Yes. It's the ur er Yeah. Right. It's the urgent ones Yeah. that cause the problem. But i it depends Terry with everybody's going down on the urgent work ones which is putting the normal service back isn't it? Well. Yeah. I haven't suffered on the normal service so far. The service is always difficult, like Roger said. Mm. Or somebody said. Can we put a handle on this? Can we Erm I'm in correspondence with him. I'm, I'm talking to him about the planned s filing system as well, which is Well. That's more than some people What, what filing system? would print That is of course. But, but that is a function of this York Accommodation Mm. Consortium which is I mean standard drawings out of there. Yeah. What is the York Accommodation So in terms of action Oh it's some, some some high whizzing w one top guy from each erm business, get together and talk about Hudson House West Office's erm main H Q. Who represents us? Some guy from er S and T I think No hoping they represent us. cos they're part of the business unit. So I said I didn't want to deal through somebody who wasn't really gonna be fighting in our corner, and I'd rather put a paper to their committee an and tell them where the problems were, and ask how they were gonna get round them. They've got problems with erm staffing because they got rid of all their staff Well. Yeah. But now now they've realized that they need more than one receptionist to cover the early hours and later hours. But what they were thinking of doing is taking on another person who could file plans away in the plan room once the, once sort of the midmorning rush of visitors had been cleared in, in Hudson House reception. But that sounds about as positive as his suggestion that he would train up er the reprographic staff to cover peaks in er sorry the troughs in, in the staffing in the plan printing. Mm. I it sounds very well in principle, but in practice I haven't, doubt very much whether or not we will avoid having a, a dint in, in the service that we need. But the plan, the ownership of the plan print room, and the way that the plans are not stored safely and they're not treated like proper documents, just amazes me when you compare it with some of the plan rooms in, in Astounding . B R. What you want to do is ring up the Sunday Times and get a reporter round and he'll get a scandal story and they'll do something Yes. All we could suggest all we could suggest that they did w w sabotage in certain cases. Well was not sabotage but tootle in and find the security fencing drawings an and the underground ducts at the York Signal Box in the plan room and wouldn't they have a a little wow? Yeah. Right. What is our proposed action? It will all be in there. Well. I will, I am writing to To say that Y A C we we're still having some problems? an a and saying that we are Good. far from happy with the plan print room with the er er o o o and suggest that the businesses ought to be concerned about the way that their records are stored in their plan room. And that er I would erm suggest that they go at Swindon to see how it's done. Well. I would suggest that we use this as a lead in to say, Isn't it time you paid to microfilm all the old drawings? Can we be of any assistance? The Mm. Well. Another, this is, two things they've got enabled Swindon to get where they were. One was a sort of leak to the Sunday Times But we're not gonna go down that path. Right. Next? Yeah but I imagine. Not Sunday Times. Can't I finish? Well. Go on. Ye yeah. Go on. And the second w was the criticism they got at Glenrig. They got you know quite a bit of stick for not being able to produce drawings that they said they had. You know, they said they'd got drawings and then, well, where are they? They couldn't produce them. And they got some stick for that. But those two things together were what enabled them to get their plan room into what it is now. An absolute work of art. Good. Mm. Right. What we've gotta decide is what we want for the, the C E D G I thing. Well. I mean I was meaning I want to, to get your standard drawings out of there. Jim knows what he wants and gonna take our standard drawings out what he wants to do. I'm fully supportive of the P Way office getting the standard drawings there. Er and I think Roger what you and Terry have to decide is what you want of your parts of the organization. And then we can organize Mm. ourselves. The problem is a lot of the drawings down there are historical drawings Yeah. Which we don't need. Which are storing information which we don't need now but it That's s would grate to Well. D d it, it Yeah. It's the cost effect of not having that information, that's going be a cost on the client if he comes and wants to Yeah. do something to those Yeah. But it would be anyway. Of course he will. It's not a cost effect on us. Well. We shouldn't be picking up the tab. No. No. No. I, far from it but I think here we should be encouraging him or, or highlighting the, the problem that he's got that he ought to be looking at. What what we should be doing is make s making sure that we have er the negatives of all those drawings that we've produced over the last ten or fifteen years, that we may need to use again. Mm. But ye but yeah. That does need staff to search through them It does. Yeah. It also needs somewhere to store them. Mm. Yeah. Well. We've got that now. But you've got a plan room down there. Which until recently functioned quite well. Yeah but it doesn't any longer and I can't er quite honestly in, in the climate that's er Rail Track. Th th that is that is e existing Yeah. now. Hopefully Rail Track will take it on board. I mean that's the way it should go Rog. Well. Infrastructure's theirs isn't it? Erm but I think we have a duty to our organization to determine what we want to do. management buy-out, do you regret not having Certainly. Yeah. So. We really short-sighted to see But they wouldn't allow us to have belong to them. Yes. They are. Well. They ma they maybe do belong to them but bloody hell they the information on it. Mm. Yes. I think that Right. We'd have copyright on them wouldn't we We Yeah. we should encourage them to microfilm them and then we should then encourage them to give us a a, a Mm. What? set of Mm. Do you know that Trainload Freight went through I in the absence that print room and removing drawings of their depots Is it? We've got is it worth considering And there's not a blind thing you can do to stop them taking Yeah. To them on their own terms? them out of there now. I, I well. I wou I would pre Of course they are. to the er the But you're losing Who's got copyright?? a valuable s Yeah. source of information for any future projects. My, my honest is we should get, we The British Railways Board has copyright. should get the photo the er microfilming facility. Jim's gonna do this and I, I think Jim's Jim's exercise will be a good for us. And if we find it's a, it's, it's er an effective system I think we should then do it for bridges Mm. and works Although the cost And P Way. It was fairly it was fairly cheap when I looked into it Yeah. with P B D. Forty five, forty five pence? About five years ago. Yeah. I mean it, it's Not only that it's they come and collect them take them away Yeah. and bring them back isn't it? Yes. Yeah. All-in price? What a hundred and sixty quid for five hundred drawings? Is that for Yeah. A one or A nought or . So. I mean regardless of what they want to do, the rest of the organization, I think that we as an organization should do something like that. With a view to er recording all the drawings that we've produced over the last fifteen years. It would take quite a, an exercise to actually find them and Well. That's the w Yeah. would be. Not the microfilming I think that's a good idea. It's, it's finding out which ones are really any good. Because they're not stored in, in Yes. a drawing number sequence. So. I No. suppose we could find them easy enough if they were. They're actually stored in bloody line reference and Are they really? bridge number and Mm. What are? I thought the bridge ones were in No they're rolled up in The Y V er pigeonholes and things. All we'd of done was taken pigeonholes and go to them and say don't want that. Don't want that. Want that. Want that. Want that. Record the number. Mm. Bundle them up them off send them off and the rest . I mean a lot a lot of the plans in the plan rooms were actually rationalized by Joe and Joe and er Joe and Bernard Fortunate them. About three or four years ago. So. Most of the rubbish should have gone and it was only the Do you honestly think that they did all? No. They did they did an awful lot of it. Yes. I thought they just pratted about And scratched the surface. No. They, they, they they made a considerable impact certainly on the earlier years' ones. But there's bags of drawings over Yes. Fine. Petree. And some bridge drawings among them. And nobody quite knows what's there. They never got to sorting those out. Right. Who's Petree? The Yeah. But they're ancient ones. As far as I'm concerned they belong to er Rail Track or, or the businesses. What I'm concerned about is those drawings that we've produced with our resources over the last fifteen years. What since n say beginning of Selby? Yeah. Go back to there. Yeah. About nineteen eighty. Cos before before that Rog the, the codes were changed anyway weren't they? Yeah. About nineteen eighty. If we went back to nineteen seventy eight, we'd pick up all the Selby drawings wouldn't we? Yes. And And all your s current standards. a and, yeah. I, I would have thought that would be good enough for us. Well. S . Well. Shall we, what, what are we talking then? Are we talking about microfilming them or duplicate negativing them? I would microfilm them. Right. it might turn out to be cheaper Yeah. number of drawings we're dealing with. But we could get somebody who knows something about to come and advise. Mm. Certainly sounds as if P Way wouldn't want anything Get, why not get before about after nineteen seventy. Or before nineteen seventy. the plan room to come and advise? On microfilming or on, or on w well. On, on microfilming, versus duplicate negatives, versus what else they've got. but I've been down there? We'd need a report order. Yeah. If Jim's gonna, if Jim's gonna micro all the information on it If Jim's gonna microfilm his stuff, then I think we should microfilm the civils drawings produced since Nineteen seventy eight. s b since since Well. Nineteen eighty. Well. I think we should make sure we sweep up the Selby drawings because they do include some fairly good stuff. more costly I, I realize that. So. Another case of finding the bloody things. We'd want to go back a bit before that. It's basically since you've got onto your er your vertical S and C, which goes back to about nineteen seventy. Right. And may just Not that long make the decision here because I think I think actually somebody needs to sit down and think Yeah. There's think Yeah. what, what they do want. Yeah. Because it may be that you th you, you look back and say, Christ, we've been using those standards since nineteen seventy. Yeah. So it may be that your standard drawings, you say, oh, goodness me. Let's just have the standard drawings Yeah. No. We, we normally use those and be unaware you may not be interested in them. for er for scheming and any alterations. As a as a Right. as a quick means of doing A anyway we can The action is each function head Yeah. is really needs to think about how far back w we should go Yeah. er with a view to us erm considering Oops whether we should erm microfilm drawings for each function. Cos we've got And I think we should erm we've got records of all the drawings haven't we Rog? That you know our drawing number books once when it's been issued. Presumably Terry's got the same. Yeah. We have upstairs. Yeah. So we can quickly scan what we need and then budget for microfilming them, oh within the next two years. How much do we p pay incidentally for the print room facility? For the print room? Er the plan room. Sorry. Nothing. Because it's not our plan room. No. But we They're not our drawings. So. They, they belong to the client. The person who owns the asset. Well. Somebody must be footing the bill. Yes. E E E East Coast Regional Railways and presumably Freight at one time. So. We don't contribute to it? No. It's a bloody massive er that I would Right. Good. Any other business? No. Finished? Good. Thank you. Rule review. I'm not doing that Ah. Please can we leave it. No. I mean I can't get my team brief done before everybody goes home now then. What? Right. Right. I'll be brief A a to be fair Steve Steve has been on standby hasn't he? To rule review us Yes. You're lucky to get Steve I mean Yeah. he's only here one day a week. Er eh? Well it means I won't be able What time's your t what time's your team brief? When? Half past three. Four o'clock it maybe could be. But people go home early on Friday. Friday they do. Why can't it wait? There's no reason why it shouldn't. Am I out does everybody else want to wait? Yeah. I could wait. It's been a long day. It's not a subject that fascinates me. Right. It's been a long day. Right. We'll do it next week some time. Alright Trev? No problem for me boss. I was rule reviewed by John . Oh. You can do us. Oh. No. I talking back myself. Would you, would you apologize to Steve on our behalf? I will. He followed me over the . Has Steve gotta do all staff? No. No. He was gonna do us and then we we, we Cascade it down. Cascade it down. I thought we'd agreed that it would be much better if we Right. Thank you gentl This is an oral history project tape, my name is and I am interviewing of Ipswich. This is tape one of recording number two of the Ipswich Transport Project. The date is the eighth of June nineteen eighty seven. Right, oh thank you Mr . Mm I wonder if you would start of by telling me where you were born? Yes, well er I'm Ipswich bred and born. I was actually erm born in although most of is gone now for the development of the grounds. The house that I was actually born in is still there, number twenty five er after a while I moved across the road to a bigger house when, cos my mother had an another son and a daughter and then we moved over to the , so when we were quite a bit in the Stoke area. Stoke area was chosen I suppose because my father worked on the railway and you either worked on the railway or if you lived over Stoke, it was well known for that. Erm twenty second of July nineteen sixteen so I'm a first war baby. I then er, we then broke away and went up to the er, I suppose it's the, I don't know what part of the, but it's the Dales, that's where I moved to then and then to because my dad couldn't, getting on in years, he couldn't take the hills up and then from I got married and we moved into this address here and then that was the day after war was declared that I got married. thirty, thirty nine. Yes, yeah fourth of September nineteen thirty nine and course erm the erm and six months after the,aft to the day really, I erm went into the forces and served in the Army for just over six years. Right, well did you, you went to school obviously locally? Yes. When did you leave school? Well, actually I left school, I think it was the either tenth or eleventh of November nineteen thirty one and I went straight into the Transport Department and I think my record will show that I actually started there on the twelfth of November nineteen thirty one. W w why is it that you went straight from school into the Well er I Did you apply to go? No I didn't apply, I erm, although I was interviewed for the job. How it turned out was that we er, I was attending the, what was called the Secondary Modern School and we'd moved premises from up to. Well I was a bleeding age but I hadn't got a job and erm I decided to keep on and we actually used a lot of our August summer holidays to help move the stuff from to School. I hung on there until, well my fifteenth birthday was in the July and it was November before I actually left. What happened was I happened to be in the corridors there and the gentleman came in, that's on the Friday afternoon, gentleman came in and asked to see the Headmaster, so I took him along to see who was the Headmaster then, and erm shortly after that I was called up to see and erm asked me if I'd like to apply for this job because had seen me erm bringing me up to, bringing him up to see and he said erm, well what about that young fella who brought me up there and would he like to apply. So I went down there and er well I suppose fell in love with the job right away. It was good, everybody had told me that erm, you know, you didn't get very much money when you left school, about ten shillings and to offer me fifteen shillings I thought was out of this world, so erm Wh what did you actually start as? Well I suppose a very junior clerk, the first job I was given was, well it's unheard of in this day and age but what they had was what they call a bundi clock and there every driver and conductor had got a key that was inserted in this clock and on it was his personal number, well when he reported for duty, he inserted this key into the clock, turned the handle and stamped on to a piece of paper, a roll of paper, his number and the time he reported and the next day it was my job to go through and record from this piece of paper how many minutes they were late f reporting for duty and if they erm were more than, I think about three or four minutes we had to send them a memo telling them, that's how things were in those days that people were, they toed the line or else. So it was a case there, and course at the end of the day you rolled the little roll up, put elastic round and stood them up in a file and they stood there like little soldiers and you could always go back to the actual time, sometimes you found a man hadn't re erm signed on, he'd just gone and joined his bus up in town centre, well you, that was er subject of another letter. So, you know, they were very strict in those days. Erm, that carried on for a while, I thought I was doing very very well, being able to do a job like that. It's the first job I'd ever had you see, and then erm I, I suppose my next job was erm recording the bus mileage. In those days they didn't use mileometers, what they did was they took any particular route number and the number of journeys they did, because in those days a bus kept on a route which applied, say between Witton and Rushmere Heath all day, didn't run around like they do nowadays and erm when the schedules were prepared, each bus had got a route number or was placed on a route number, say one Witton, two Witton, three Witton and a copy of its schedule was recorded on another sheet and the mileage, having known what the mileage was and we'd used to obtain that from the Borough Surveyor's Department, er I think it was about nine point one four miles a return trip Witton and Rushmere Heath, er you'd work out how many journeys they did there and say well that bus was due to run a hundred and twenty six miles during the day. Well sometimes they didn't do that f for reason, perhaps a driver missed his duty or there was a defect on the bus and you used to get a record each day of what we call lost mileage or an extra mileage perhaps on the odd occasion when an extra journey was run but erm the lost mileage was recorded and say you had this bus was due to run a hundred and twenty six miles, it didn't for some reason complete its erm hundred percent journey, you'd take that off and then record against that bus that, that run say hundred and twenty miles. Now that was, the reason that all this mileage was done because that mileage is the basis for which all statistical information is recorded. Speeds per mile, pence per mile, cost per mile and everything is erm referred back to the mileage run by an undertaking during its year, week or what have you. It also, in those days was mileage for the tyres was paid on the number of miles run per tyre, so at the end of the month you could record, you knew what tyres were on a certain bus, you knew of how many miles that bus had done, so you recorded that particular tyre on that bus had run so many miles and it was that that we paid for our tyres that way. I think it was round about a ha'penny a mile in those days. We had to pay er there was two lots of erm tyres, there was one set of buses were fitted with and another one with or I forget which it was there but I know those three were involved at some time or other and we used to record the mileage, send it off to them, showing what each bus ran during the month. How many days it was out of service and this that and the other and erm they used to send us an invoice on the mileage run because at the same time we knew what tyres were on the bus we had to inform them of any tyre changes and they kept records the same as us. So you didn't actually buy the tyres then you were sort of an overseer No we didn't buy tyres, no they were tyre mileage rates and erm mileage was the, tyres were paid for on the mileage run. How long did that go on for? Oh, it did, went on for up to the time I retired. It maybe still the same now, erm because right up to the time I erm retired we, we had on occasions to pay for the residual value of a tyre, perhaps a bus had been in accident and the tyre had suffered damage which it wasn't possible to repair it or retread it, perhaps a hole had been pierced through the wall, they scrapped that tyre and we had to pay for the residual value, mind you being in accident we could then claim it off the insurance company but, so right up to the time I retired that's how tyres were paid for. I mean we could never have paid for all those tyres and when I retired the erm, they actually had a tyre fitter supplied and paid for by they were the, they took over the whole of the tyre maintenance, they had a tyre fitter down there and he used to go up to depot, change any tyres over there that were necessary, he inspected them each day and changed them over but of course he was notifying erm at the same time. Over the years we didn't have quite so much work to do with recording which tyre was on which bus because he took it over, but it was right up until I retired in, well five years ago that we were paying tyres that way. Where actually were you working? In this early part, where were you At , I never moved from there. We erm, we hadn't got a lot of room for expansion down there, we were in, when I joined the department it was known as the Ipswich T Electric Supply and Transport Department and er we were in some buildings which were rented from the Electric Supply Department which housed the generators for the electricity, so we hadn't got a lot of room for expansion there, I think we were all confined into about three offices. What were they like well the facilities there like? Well they were two storey buildings, we had one office which was partitioned off for us clerks and the other half was for the traffic superintendent who was responsible, directly responsible to the general manager of the Ipswich Electric Supply and Transport Departments, so erm and then we had another office adjoining that which was a store room because in those days we used to have to erm record and keep in safekeeping all lost property,no end of things we used to have but we, you know, we used to have pigeon holes and lost property that was brought in, was placed into these pigeon holes it'd be Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday. We'd keep them for a fortnight in those pigeon holes because most people claim stuff if they realize where they'd left it within a day or two and then as the weeks went round we used to take stuff out of there and just lump it altogether, having duly labelled it up and erm record it and used to have tuppence an item if anybody lost anything. Odd gloves we never used to charge for had to get rid of them and er so apart from those two offices er there was immediately above us was a biggish office spreading over these two blocks of offices, called the ticket office and there at that time about eleven girls working in it on tickets. Er nearer the actual bus garage was what was called the depot office and the paying in room. Now the depot office the they in those days controlled what a man's duties were for the next day and a man didn't know what he was on until about twelve o'clock one day what he was on the next day. In those days a man was allocated duties, it is true they tried to arrange that he was on early spread, medium or late duties but it didn't always work out because of holidays, sickness or that but erm there were no restriction on hours. In those days a man would run in about half past eleven at night and he could very well be on an early shift the next day. There was no sort of law against erm employing people without a certain amount of rest and erm that was employed, er that was occupied that office from first thing in the morning when the bus went out from five o'clock and erm he would, the depot clerk would go off round about dinner time, there'd be his relief who came on at nine o'clock and worked with him until dinner time and he'd carry on till five and then we had, what was called, the cashiers come on duty then, there was a cashier and erm a hand. It was a shed hand actually, he didn't, wasn't responsible for cash although he helped the cashier and er, I well remember this erm in those days the conductor used to either run into depot with the bus or he'd get relief on the Cornhill, he walked down to the depot carrying his cash in his cash bag and then he'd sit in the paying in room and he'd laboriously cam carried out his cash, piling the pennies into stacks, the ha'pennies, the tokens, the sixpences, every denomination. Then he would place them on one of the old time boards which was er board about nine inches by nine inches and then hand that through the pigeon hole to the cashier and in front of him that cashier would laboriously count that money and agree the total there and then. You can well imagine when all the buses ran in between eleven and half past eleven that there was a mad scramble to get their cash in and someone , very often somebody's cash would get knocked off the board, so there was a scramble on the floor. But that's how cash was counted in those days and erm, the waybill was marked to agree with a man's statement of what his cash added up to and then the cash next day was counted up bolt because there was Priory Heath to take care of, although that wasn't a media when I first went down there, that opened later on, but there was the two got to be married together and then conveyed to the bank the next day, or, on the Monday if it was a Saturday or Sunday. But that sort of thing went on in those days, money was physically handled all the time. It was in the later days that you gradually got the the buses were then fitted with these, these safes, they've got the safes on the ticket machines on the buses, whereby every man's cash working on that bus that day went into a vault on the bus. The vaults were then changed at night or when the bus had finished service and then were counted by a different means, they were counted by machine coin counters and er so, instead of say erm what, sixty or seventy conductors paying in their money, this was all erm on the bus, so there may have been five or six drivers had worked that bus that day and all the takings he'd taken during the time was all in this night safe in this vault. So er, you know, things did progress a great deal. With so much cash about, was there any, any problems with security? No, because er I always put it down to the fact that most of our takings were in coin, it was very seldom that you had a pound note, you possibly had a ten pound note in those days but most of it was coinage and the cash when it was married up, was put into steel bound wooden boxes. They was made that two men had to lift 'em, so there was hardly likely that any thief was gonna get in there and run off with one of these boxes cos you'd never lift it. So, you know, it, it, it, never at any time was paper money to the fore, you didn't get very much. The most time was on Fridays when the drivers and conductors or fitters, everybody used to get their pay packet which was mostly in notes they would immediately go to the depot and say, can I change it . So that's, that's the only time that we really had lots and lots of notes. Did you have to wear a uniform to go to work? Not me, no the drivers and conductors and inspectors, they had a uniform and it was seen that they did wear it. Just before my time down there, if a man reported for work with a dirty collar or something like that you were sent home. He wasn't allowed to work that day, so people turned up in a white shirt and tie and looking smart, they had to wear uniforms even a cap but unfortunately nowadays, although a lot of the I have seen quite a few people their uniform has changed since I left, but erm they do come to work in very very casual work now. Casual wear, jeans and open necked shirts , no caps,no Mm. but erm There was no, no uniform for the office, so you had to provide your own? No, no just went in ordinary civilian wear, girls sometimes had some overalls because they were handling the ticket boxes, they were metal, they got wet, they rusted up and that was a filthy job for there was really, in those days it was a two box system, a man drew his box which contained a certain amount of tickets of different variable classes and erm, it was listed on a waybill, he was given a half an hour to check his box and join his bus at town centre. So he, he sat in the mess room there and checked his box against the tickets which were shown on the waybill. If he agreed it he signed it and put the to which that was called a total waybill. He placed it in the box and that eventually returned itself to the ticket office. He also had another er, what we call a journey waybill and that, he used to record on there at each termini he used to record the time and the ticket numbers that he'd got in his rack at that particular time, so it could be seen between certain times that a ticket perhaps was sold between Witton and Rushmere Heath. We didn't ask them to do Electric House because that would have meant that you'd gotta have enough lines there to take a bus timing every half an hour because Witton, well every quarter of an hour really. Witton to Electric House quarter of an hour, Electric House to Rushmere Heath, quarter of an hour and it did the reverse direction. So it meant every quarter of an hour you were asking a man to record his numbers, so we boiled it down to termini. Witton, Rushmere, Vauxhall Road, London Road and those sort of places. So that was the journey waybill and that was handed in at the end of the day and from that and a visual check of the tickets that were returned by him to the ticket office, they could tell which tickets were missing and therefore they were sold to him and er there be, there was the odd shortages but in those days if anybody was short in his takings by, I think it was about sixpence in those days, he was the subject of a another warning by letter and if he persisted, well then he was brought in to see the Traffic Superintendent who erm, could suspend him for two or three days, so he lost pay for two or three days. Discipline was very very strict in those days but of course with the war coming on and lots of those men going to the forces, things changed drastically during that time and discipline was somewhat more lax after the war. Every one of those men who went in the forces, who lived to tell the tale, was given their jobs back when they came back, because their jobs were replaced by women during the war, drivers and conductors, they were replaced by women and as the men came back, so the women were paid off, so everybody who came back from the war was given their job back. So before the war y you, you did the mileages and you did the clocking on and clocking off Yes yes. What other jobs did you do? Well lost property, I already touched on, that was one of my jobs and then erm, we called it the ticket book, that was for want of some other name I suppose. It was the record per week of the different classes of tickets that were sold. Penny, tuppence, three ha'penny returns and every denomination of tickets was recorded so that you so showed the erm number of tickets, erm it was possible for a at the end of the week to record what the takings were, per route and the mileage and so, as I told you before, the mileage played a great importance in that you were able to say how much that route was producing per mile run and the erm,in those days it, the erm the receipts worked out, daily receipts, weekly receipts and the progressive total in that year, were always published by the Ipswich Evening Star, round about Tuesday or Wednesday and if you missed them, there'd be somebo member of the public ringing up to why, answer why you hadn't put it in , it was, you know, looked upon then you were, were public transport and the public team that you belonged to them. They they thought they had the right to boss you around. I pay for your salaries, cos we were, in those days, on the rates. Any erm deficiency at the end of the financial year was made up by a rate demand, erm so i the it wasn't the same in all municipal undertakings, some of them were allowed to carry forward their balances but Ipswich, whether it was erm, er by law or er a, oh I don't know what it be, perhaps needed that they got to be, the erm balance of the year had to be balanced at the end of the year, so you had a rate demand and of course that rate demand went on to the next year's rates. So i more often than not we were on the rates and of course the public say, oh I'm paying your salaries . So you can imagine that erm, er during the war of course,th they buses made because they made to the trolley buses made plenty of money because erm, labour was cheap and erm, you had the soldiers they were, lot of them, no other form of transport, petrol rationing and that, so the buses really did come into their own during the war. du during this during, before the war, it was trolley buses? Yes, yes. When did the motor buses come in? I think the first ones we had were about nineteen thirty six I believe. My memory doesn't er, is not all that clear on it. But there were certainly trolley buses when I went there in nineteen thirty one and trolley buses first came in in nineteen twenty three and it was all trolley buses by nineteen twenty six. Erm, motor buses came in, I, I can't recall, I think now on reflection that it was after the war, motor buses came in. Erm nineteen forty eight, forty nine, something like that. I, I couldn't be adamant about the date of those but er c the reason that motor buses came in is because it was too costly to extend trolley bus routes. With, with putting up new, new cables? Yes,you you've got to extend the route, well of course you've got to put up, trolley poles every for about forty yards and then of course there was two lengths of trolley wire that had to go because as you know trolley buses used to have two arms, positive and negative supply and er, of course the bus had to come back er alongside the premiu the outward route, it come on, so you had four wires up there and the cost of copper wire was terrific so the motor buses were developed and we expenim experimented with the buses on, on extensions mainly but when the extensions were finished we then begradged because trolley wires were then beginning to wear out, rather than replace them they would convert a trolley route into a bus route, and erm because the erm, there was a lot of people hated to see the demise of the trolley buses because they were so clean and silent and the buses came, you got the deal sloke and lumbering of the old engines, that a lot of people hated to see the trolley buses go but cos that was the, the reason that they went. They were very very reliable because erm, the motive power was in a motor, electric motor, not a lot of parts to go wrong but er once you started the motor buses they had to send people away to to be taught the mechanics of motor buses, so you had the old die-hards of the fetters, trolley buses, who never did take to motor buses and course the younger ones came into their own then, who were able to adapt to the modern motor bus. Do you remember what you were paid at the outbreak of the war? Well, yes, I, I, I did merely remark about it, I think I got fifteen shillings per week. That was when you started in nineteen thirty one? Yeah, when I started in nineteen thirty one and in those days you got a rise every six months and I got a one and three rise after they'd been there six months and at the year I was earning seventeen and six. Now I got married in nineteen thirty nine and my wage then was forty eight and sixpence and that's how my wages were and erm How did that wage compare to the, to drivers and, and conductors? Well it was a wee bit under because I was only an office clerk, I, I wasn't the junior but by then had come there and there were other, other clerks, some girls who'd come into the office and I'd got a little bit of step up you see and took over a little bit more important work, erm, I did just before I went in the Army have a dabble at erm running times, that was preparing the schedules for buses. For some unknown reason before the war we used to have a route change every year. If the buses ran from Bramford Road to Lattice Barn one year, they'd decide they'd send them from Bramford Road to Bourne Bridge the next. They were always changing them to try and balance up the take I suppose, on each, each leg of the route and there was always was the chief clerk then and him and I got on very well together and he really initiated me into running times. I didn't do very important part of it because erm, it was, sometimes you'd get the same sort of schedule. A bus would repeat itself every hour and he'd say, run that one down, or that was running it down hour after hour until about seven o'clock when certain buses were run in. The other buses were either spread out in their running time or cut down to form the evening frequency which was less than what it was during the peak time and so I, you know, I'd, I'd left it at then, when I went in the forces then, he carried on. I came out of the forces, he was only waiting for the time that I came out, for him to retire. He hung on until I came out and I was given embarkation leave or demob leave rather and I didn't even have a chance to have that, they wanted me down there so quickly, I think I came out of the forces one week and I was working down there the following week because was way past his retiring age. Though er, I really got into that, I was forced into it, I never had a time to think about it, I was wanted there, I who was the Traffic Superintendent then. He was very very tolerant with me and he brought me back into it without a lot of undue pressure and erm because transport wasn't my life but I'd sort of dedicated myself to it. I, I got stuck in, I used to bring stuff home at night to work on and er there were no exams to sit then, you just sort or did it by, you either could or you couldn't do it. That's on disk. W w w what did you actually do during the war?went away? Well Is that transport related or No, it wasn't transport related, I knew that my, my group, because everybody was placed in a certain group by age and, er I knew that I was due to go and I thought oh well this is hanging around you sort of wanted to get on with it. I volunteered for the Grenadier Guards, well I had to go to Chelsea Barracks and after a week there, they decided that I wasn't medically fit for them, although the doctor or the M O at the Ipswich Recruiting Officer said, oh yes, you're A one you'll be fine for the guard but cos I was fairly well built, stature wise. Oh, yes, you're just the sort of bloke we're looking for for the guards. So I fell for it and I volunteered for the Guards, but after a week, they decided I, I'd got flat feet which wasn't very good for slamming your foot down as the guards demanded in those days. I came back on the Friday night and erm, well I've packed my job in at the Transport Department, I better go down to the Recruiting Office and see what else. Well, having been downgraded to A two from A one erm I said well what else can I volunteer for, cos I didn't fancy going back to work and then being called up again. So I erm, I erm, was put into the Royal Army Pay Corp and posted up to Barnet, North London and I was there for quite a while, we all transferred down to Winchester. Well we went into the Rifle Brigade Barracks at Winchester and used to work out at a big house outside of Winchester so we had to march out there and then at the time of Dunkirk, they were looking for places to put all the soldiers that they'd brought and er, we were cleared out of Barnet, er out of Winchester Barracks and posted up to Nottingham and we worked in the factory, which was taken over by the Army then and erm, and then whilst there, I suppose that was about nineteen what, about nineteen fo coming up to nineteen forty two, they decided to have a recheck or rethink on medicals, so we were all subject to another medical and they put me back to A one and says, right we're getting rid of all A one personnel out of the Pay Corp, you have a choice Royal Army Ordnance Corp or the Royal Artillery. Well my brother was in the Artillery and I thought well it be nice if I can get with him but that didn't work out that way. I was posted to the er ack-ack brigade and I was posted to Norwich, just at Norwich,Coldershaw really. At the Brigade H Q. Having served as sort of er apprentice there as an artillery clerk, I was put, posted up to Woolwich to go through a erm clerk's course. I was up there for six weeks, I passed the course and was posted back to Brigade H Q to a wider posting to a regiment. My posting came through and I was posted to Swordstone this side of Norwich, so I was still quids in, I could get home once a week, twenty four hour pass and then erm after a while erm, having served at Regiment, I was posted up to, as the Sergeant Artillery Clerk with the Brigade, an ack-ack brigade up at Coventry, just outside Coventry and then of course the A T S were coming in, were coming in in quite large numbers then and they were replacing male personnel and then I was posted abroad and I went to Egypt where I was there again, fortunate enough, I suppose, to go into the echelon, the second echelon which was the Records Office of all the forces or the armoured personnel in the Middle East and I worked there until I was actually demobbed from there but I was out in Egypt there for two, just over two years, came back to Northampton where I was finally demobbed and allowed to come home and as I said I came home one week and I was back at work the next. So I was actually messing around with the Tax Officer for quite a while because I was on demob leave and I was also working so he wasn't gonna let me have two lots of sa wages. How had th the transport changed then in that period you were away, sort of five years? What were the changes that you noticed? Well, Ha had things been allowed to run down over the war? No, no but th erm erm, the only real difference was that lots and lots of the trolley buses were of the utility type. They were made to wartime restrictions, wooden seats and erm mass produced really, erm there was none of the erm cushioned seats at all, that were a part of the feature during th before the war. We had lots and lots of trolley buses and er who was the General Manager had sought powers to run all over Ipswich. Oh the by-pass road, you know the north northern part of Ipswich, along the by-pass and of course had ordered trolley buses, because you had to order 'em about two years ahead of time, erm, to take care of that but it didn't materialize and we had a surplus of buses and some of them were sold off, I think some went to Walsall, some to Wolverhampton and er I, I think it was one of those that was sold to Wals Woolwich, figured in the national newspapers that had toppled over. It er gone on its side but erm, I da I wouldn't say that things had deteriorated that much. It was erm, they had expanded, they brought in the Clapgut Lane route during the war. As they say things were different during the war. If it was er public transport, certain facilities were afforded to public transport which went to private under enterprise erm because of the nature of taking factory workers to the ammunition factories and such like. But I wouldn't say that er, that it had deteriorated. Mind you the, the erm, the wages had risen quite a bit during the time. I was fortunate in that I was married before the war and the Ipswich Council had decided that married men's wages would be made up. Erm, so I was constantly getting rises, less my service pay and erm it got to a state there where sometimes my service pay was more than what the erm salary I would have got at home was and my wife had to pay to keep my superannuation live. She had to You turn it up. fears I er I'm coming back from the forces I went into the main job, taking over from the previous scheduled clerk by breaking the schedules and the duties. The duties being erm what a man had to do to cover that er period of that scheduling. As I said before a bus was on a certain route number, say you had one Witton what was had now and then, well that that ran from six o'clock in the morning perhaps till eleven o'clock at night. Now that had to be manned by a driver and a conductor for that day. Well obviously he couldn't work six in the morning till eleven at night. So you had to have, in that day erm, about five men to cover one bus right the way through, can you just a moment. Five men during the whole day. Erm why I say five men, you might think that peculiar because there was a man and a conductor each time but we used to reckon that two buses, full-time buses would be scheduled by te or run by ten men because there one man would come off at nine o'clock, have a relief of hour and fifteen minutes and then another one would take over from him. So it's er, how we used to marry them up was erm two long buses as we called would take ten men to do five duties. Erm, then the erm, the insistence of the driver's conductors was they didn't like the long periods of duty they erm, they wanted the new set up so I introduced what we call straight duties, narrowed the relief portion, so they didn't go home for a meal, they had about a half an hour off, so they were able to get their eight hour duty done in a shorter period and they'd probably finish about two instead of half past three, four o'clock. At this time then after the war, how many vehicles were there running? Oh dear I suppose seventy odd a day. And how many men would that, would you employ? I think at erm, at the peak time there was about two hundred and twenty six drivers and conductors. Erm, when, when I came back out the forces, a man's guaranteed week was a forty hour, forty eight hour week. It went down to forty six, they negotiated things that er reduced it to forty six. It went down to forty four, forty two and now I believe they are on a forty hour week. Whether they've got down to thirty eight, I don't know but it was a forty hour week when I finally left. So and then erm, of course they start bringing in one man buses and the conductors were no longer required. Now er I could make a point here that when they introduced one man operated buses, they thought they were on to a new thing but one man operated buses were in this town before the war. Trolley buses had one man to do it. Now they thought they were in a new thing in nineteen fifties when they brought in one man operated buses but they weren't. There's only one person on a trolley bus, Yes. there's no conductor then? The, they used to put a conductor on for peak time and then about nine o'clock the rear door was closed and the driver took over issuing tickets, taking money and then perhaps the conductor would come on from about twelve or two and then again, perhaps from half past four till half past six. So a conductor's duty weren't very very nice then, probably three piece duties, which were spread duties but you know people thought they were bringing in a wonderful thing to be one man operated but it was before the war that we had one man operated buses. Cos I remember the duties, there used to be a driver you would get more pay for bringing the bus, one man, so underneath each duty was just how many, how many hours he was one man and how many two men. So it's, it wasn't a new thing when they brought but nevertheless erm that went on and on and on then and er cos the staff really went down, the requirements for staff went down and erm I, I think erm, they got it down when I left there to round about a hundred and forty six staff was, was all that was required. Mm how many were, were in the office at this time? Was the clerical work still there? B no erm the, the clerical erm staff on the erm, shall we say the traffic side increased a bit because er there was mo more and more demanding work but the ticket office, they went down, erm I have mentioned perhaps before that they had the two box system and there was about eleven, twelve, thirteen girls in there and their duty was to check a box that had been used one day, stock it up with tickets, get it ready for the day after. So there was constantly two books, two boxes going. At the same time they had on Mondays and Tuesday we used to sell weekly tickets, so they had to go out in another box on Mondays and Tuesdays. Then there was plenty of work for them but then when the erm, the one man buses really got going and they introduced the night safe on the buses, the ticket office was cut drastically, they didn't need to have all this information. We had waybills that we could extract this information from but it wasn't so accurate because man wasn't required to record the erm numbers of each class of ticket. All we were concerned was, was the total ticket registers. We could get certain information recorded from the ticket machines, of just how many of different types of tickets were issued because what we'd, they had double readings. A man when he issued say two, two tuppeny tickets,there were two tuppeny tickets but he pushed a little lever and issued two tuppeny tickets which came out almost together, that was a fourpenny fare and that would record once Mm. on little numerator. So we were able to tell how many tickets of certain classes were sold each day but not route by route, we'd lost that that facility because the waybills just weren't big enough and of course the,wa everything got mechanical but now I mean I don't profess to know anything about what happens now but I was introduced to it when I went down there for a retirement and believe me it's, it's all electronics now they can tell how a ticket machine is issuing tickets at any particular one day by this, this electronic business, this computers. So they really brought it down to a very fine art now. Was the,wh were there trade unions in, in, in the Transport Department at this time, were they quite active? Oh yes, yes the erm, the main one was the Transport and General Workers' Union which erm, did all the drivers, conductors and cleaners and semi-skilled staff but erm you had the erm N U V B which is the National Union and Vehicle Builders and of course you had the Electrical Trades People, so they, they were all working in there but the main one covering most of the men was the Transport and General Workers' Union. Now the office staff, there was no closed shop there but our union was NALGO. The National Association of Local Government Officers. I don't know whether you in . Well that was the, the erm union for us, erm I think erm one of the great assets of being in public transport was that we were in a local erm pension scheme, erm when, when we in the office started, we had to wait until we were eighteen and then we had to wait for a vacancy because there was a limited number of people that the Council were prepared to back by paying a similar amount. Drivers and conductors had to wait three years, they had to be employed three years before they were accepted into the pension scheme but you know, believe me I'm glad that I paid in for it. It was a bit of a pill at the time and y used to pay a shilling in the pound, well a shilling was a lot more valuable than it is now and erm I used to begrudge paying in it forty eight and sixpence but it does provide the, well the pleasures of life now, whereby the pens the ordinary old age pension wouldn't. Erm I told you that erm during the war if my army wage went above what the recorded salary was, my wife had to pay to keep the superannuation going and when I see the buses now running around, they seem to run everywhere I don't on earth what kind of running board they've got because in my day it was so well regulated that erm you just recorded certain intermediate stages and I quote Witton and Rushmere you get, used to get Witton Terminus, Norwich Road Bridge, Sherrington Road, Barret Corner, Electric House and you gave an indication of the time that those buses should be passing those times. Er and then we'd used to repeat right the way through the day, we had a bus say for sixteen hours and it erm repeated itself every hour and that was boring job just writing it down and repeating it. So wh what was a running board then? A running board was the information given to the driver of what, where he was expected to run, what time he was expected to leave the various termini. They w it's erm,lo They were prepared by the office and given to each driver daily? Well there were running boards, they were, they were written out, well eventually,we were typed out but they were written out and first of all it was really funny we used to size them on to these wooden boards, let that dry, then varnish them and that board was used day in day out. A man used to hand it back in when the bus ran in and it was given out the next day. It eventually got that they were typed and put into cellophane covers which made it a lot easier. It was funny in my day, when I first started there you used to get, mix up some size and er in a pot, in a proper pot and take it down into the mess room and put it on the stove, coal stove, heat it up and you let it boil over there was a terrific smell about the place you can imagine,the size but that's what we used to do in those days. Things were much easier then but th all these running boards were, were interpreted, if that's the right word, on the master scheduling. Now you used to say perhaps there's an hourly service, er an hourly run from Witton to Rushmere and back again and you wanted a ten minute service. Well that would take six buses to do that. Six tens being sixty and they were all prepared in a master schedule, you'd write down twelve o'clock, twelve ten, twelve twenty, erm that sort of thing you see Mm. and then each, that would take six buses, one, two, three, four, five, six Wittons we used to call them and then the running board was a copy from that of all what number one Witton was gotta do. So from a mass master timetable, each bus, route number was interpreted on to a what we called a running board and er it was that that the driver ran to. You got complications some time in that erm when the Six A Twos, the Fours and the Six B routes were running erm it was found sometimes that if you married them together, did a Six A trip one time a Six B, a Two and Four, you could save what we call a bus, you could save a whole bus by marrying them together because routes were only of thirty minute duration from Electric House out to Six A R Gainsborough and back again was, was half an hour. Now you could have two buses doing that and forming fifteen minute service because one bus went out in thirty minutes another one fifteen minutes behind it, that came back so that the first bus was able to do the third one. Now if you want to decrease the frequency, say at evenings, and you wanted a twenty minute service, you can see that you're in all kinds of muddle. It was fifty, it's thirty minutes to do the run, you only wanted a bus to repeat itself every forty minutes, so you got ten minutes to waste. You couldn't afford to have drivers sitting around for ten minutes not doing anything, so you married these routes up together and were able to, by manipulation, get them to a more economical run. Er, but even so the running boards did look very complicated because on one half an hour he'd probably go and do a Six A run, another one a Six B run, a Two and a Four. You can imagine that some drivers er went the wrong way, and it was just that they, they just didn't concentrate on the run but nowadays they seem to run all over the town. So how on earth they keep them to a schedule I do not know but I don't want to know now . What was the social life like, was there a social club? There was a very very strong social club. was the General Manager then, he was very very keen on sport and erm in nineteen thirty eight, er saw the opening of the erm sports ground at Barragh Close, Flindburgh Road. I remember because in nineteen thirty eight, er we were scheduled to have an opening in about the September and we got a team coming down to play us at football and we were going to have a social evening, darts and that, at, in the evening and of course at that particular time, the war was a definite threat. You remember Chamberlain Yes and his white piece of paper, so everything was cancelled. Er as regards to the team that was gonna come down from London and I was Secretary of the Football Club at that time. said erm, oh we must have something. So I, I rang the Power Station people at Norwich and they sent up a team to open it. So it was in nineteen thirty eight that the, the erm sports ground at Priory Heath was opened. Now erm was the instigator of the Ipswich Interfirm Cup and erm, in those days if there was any erm going begging at Portman Road, would give them a job on the, the gangs. The electricity cable laying to give 'em a job so you could play for the Ipswich Electric Supply Team and we had a jolly good team, we won the cup for the first three years that it was in being but the finals used to be on Portman Road and course that was in those days a thing to be looked forward to. Erm there was the cricket, there was bowls, tennis, swimming section, gardening section. The swimming section was more or less brought back to mind to me the other day when they showed the old Stoke bathing place. Though we u that was over Stoke Worstead Road way, when we used to have the open air swimming pool there. It was only water that was let into a confined space but we had a Sports Association which had a section for the swimming and er I way remember bought a couple of old single decker buses from somewhere, I don't know where and he had them fitted out and rigged up at Stoke Bathing Place, especially for us to go there and change and w we did have quite a good strong section, we used to hold our, an annual what you call a regatta, or, no not a regatta but er in the St Matthew's Swimming Baths a festival, a swimming festival a gala, yes Mm. and you know we could, in those days because of the number of people employed being Electric Supply and Transport, we could erm, manage to keep it a viable proposition for an evening's entertainment then and erm,you probably can turn this up in the, the Star they're showing erm as he was then, one of the drivers swimming from erm Stoke Bathing Place to Felixstowe. Er I was, I think I've got pictures about it somewhere or tha that was in the Evening Star not so very many years ago. They've got pictures of it, of him preparing all greased up. It was our, our answer to cross channel swimming . He, he did it once or twice, had to give up when he got to the mouth of the River Orwell because he mistimed the currents but he did, he did eventually do it from Stoke Bathing Place to Felixstowe. It was a long swim in those days. At what stage did they split the power and the transport? Oh,a at nineteen forty eight they split up the electric supply and the three was nationalized and erm it, it just went out of the control of the local councils, it was government controlled then and there was a distinct possibility that the transport section would be sold off to private enterprise and the only private enterprise that was capable of taking over then was the Eastern Counties but erm I think the, the erm local council having had the transport under their wing for so many years, fought off that erm feeling and erm they kept with it and er, of course all the accountancy went to the Borough Treasurer and the certain members of clerks from the Borough Treasurers, which was at in those days, er seconded on to transport accounts. So we were really answerable to the Ipswich Borough Council, rather than to private enterprise which some people really wanted to sell us off as being a, you know, a weight round their necks because if we didn't make a lot of money after the war, the accounts would show that we were making a deficiency every year and erm, well there was no way that you could recoup it because our routes weren't really long enough to charge lots of fares erm, maybe tuppence was the town centre to the extreme termini Mm and, and you know you couldn't get a lot of money, although of course nationally, the rates of pay were governed nationally, they were going up and up and up and there was no way that we could keep pace, we couldn't keep on increasing the tuppeny fare. They are increased now obviously but erm, you know to put anything on a tuppeny fare then was well a ha'penny which was twenty five percent on terrible, every year we were going for a fare increase and in those days you really had to go through the Traffic Commissioners. You had to go to Cambridge. Loads and loads of information had to be supplied. You had to satisfy the Traffic Commissioners, that what you are proposing would, would answer the cause, wouldn't give rise to erm great hardships to the travelling public and erm oh you're preparing a fare increase about a year before it actually came up to, in front of the Commissioners and then he would erm, perhaps make some alterations or give you a date when you could apply. You had to then notify the public at least twenty f twenty four I, no fourteen days before it was due to come in. Everybody then had the right to make erm protests against this and could be heard at Cambridge, protesting about fare increases. So i it wasn't a very easy thing then to get them and as I say you'd be preparing a fare increase which, perhaps a ha'penny on certain fares and a penny on fares above a certain range and you had to allow for depreciation, or resistance in the public travelling but er as long as you could always bring in a little extra from a fare increase it was worthwhile going forward. As I say it was very very difficult in those days, you had to satisfy the Traffic Commissions. So,i in the fifties across to be one man operated buses? Yes. What were the changes that followed that, that then? How did it develop in the sixties? Was it, the town was growing then? Well the town was growing then. As I said the er, the trolley buses were being phased out and the buses, the motor buses were being used more than ever and I don't know the date of the last trolley bus running but I well remember it being reported time, it was the erm, bus was packed on its last journey from Electric House and people were photographing it. It was its last run and it finished up at Priory Heath erm was on the Gainsborough route. The last ones to be motorized and erm Why those routes? Well I suppose it because, as I told you, those four routes were always treated as a separate entity because they were on, there were possible chances of marrying those routes together to get them to run the most economical way. There was four routes there now and we had as many as ten buses operating those four, so it meant they were left, you couldn't sort of segregate them. You couldn't say well we will have motor buses on the fourth and not the other three because they were so closely interwoven. So that they got to all go off at once. So all the other routes were motorized and then those when we got a, a big batch of motor buses come in. It then erm, they would, they went out in one complete entity you see and the trolley wires were just taken down. Erm, motor buses very very expensive. Another thing you might not realize is that erm, erm when you ordered motor buses you had to get authority from the Ministry of Transport and you used to appl apply for a bus grant. Now in its infancy we used to get a fifty percent grant, that was the price of the bus was halved at, Ministry would pay. It got phased out so that the Ministry didn't pay anything at all but to get this grant you had to keep tremendous records copies of invoices and you had to get er and the bus grant and the, the permission from them. It was very difficult to get these things but of course erm, it did when you were talking about seventy two thousand pound for each bus. You were glad to get half of it Yes. cos trolley buses, in this town were really the erm well I suppose they really came about, rather than motor buses right at the start because built trolley buses and so did of Laiston. You had er, in fact used to use our overhead, to erm test their chassis before they went to the body makers. If they were going to a different body maker anyway. So they, Mm. we used to charge them for using our overhead and erm, so I suppose trolley buses were used here because it was so convenient. right on the doorstep making them. Yes supply them. I, I, it's in or this may be a little bit disjointed to want an chronologically tell you everything that's happened but there are some of the highlights in my life. The sports section that you, you talk you harped on a little while ago. It was a thriving thing and, but when electric supply in nineteen forty eight went nationalized, we lost a lot of members and er, we did try to carry it on, just Ipswich Borough Transport. I think the snooker section, the table section they're still flourishing actually but as regards to football, you just hadn't got enough members. You, you can't have a transport football team because you can't get enough of us together at one time cos they're working you see, when people want to go to and from work but er So you, you came up for retirement what in nineteen Well it's er I've been retired five years now, that was eighty two, yes. I, I worked up to the end of May and because of accrued leave I er I left then. My actual retirement date was the twenty second of July. I had worked there, and that was when I was sixty five, so I'd worked there all my working life, apart from the, the war years and had served under quite a number of people really. When I first went there we had who was a tall heavy built man and you walk well I did, I walked in fear of my life. If I could get away from him, not talk to him I was happy but if he spoke to me I was ju literally shake in me shoes, he gave you that, he was that erm type of man, although he was kind enough really, but he was really gruff. Bowler hat, little moustache and spats and when you came through the shed, my God, nobody slacked cos he had eyes everywhere and the Traffic Superintendent was , he was directly responsible to him erm then erm retired and erm then retired during the war and they had another fella come in from he came from away. He wasn't there all that time. I think he had a little bit of ill health and my immediate superior took over as Traffic Superintendent and he was there throughout the war and when I came out he was my boss and er you see and er and then in nineteen forty eight was made Transport Manager, because as you say we had to split from Electric Supply and he carried on until erm nineteen seventy two and erm, we had government reorganization and erm they did away with people like the Town Clerk and Transport Manager and erm erm was retired, early retirement, the same as the Town Clerk and erm they brought in a General Manager from away and brought in more staff with him and that was came in and er so I then applied for the position, which was going, there was, there was Traffic Superintendent was going er Chief Administration Officer, Chief Engineer and erm er Bodywork Maintenance Superintendent. All those positions were going for want of an application, so I applied and because brought in people who he knew, certain of them were automatically filled but they want the Chief Administration Officer, so I applied and really I don't kid myself that I got it because of my qualification because I hadn't got any letters after my name. Mm. I think I got it because of my local knowledge and the that gave him the facility of being able to carry on without interruption. If you'd had all people come in and try to bring in new ideas on to an old system, I don't think it would have worked. So they had me as continuity and I got the job and it was a bit of a struggle because I'd always been traffic, traffic at work but this was a little bit different in that if you had to do more accountancy and I had to pick it up. I had a lot of help from people and erm well I'm fairly adaptable and I sort of took over this job of Chief Administrator's Assistant. Sorry Chief Administrator Officer and I had to provide quite a lot of statistical information which I'd never done before but nevertheless I, I made a fairly reasonable job of it, I had an assistant and erm I, I think I got fairly well known amongst the councillors and people who mattered and then went. He had some ill health erm he, he was, they brought in a bloke who was retired from some place up north, Sheffield I think it was. They brought him back as a Caretaker to General Manager and really I didn't see eye to eye with him. He came in with the ideas, give the drivers and conductors everything they asked for whereby my training had always been to only give them what they were really entitled to, not give them anything extra but he gave them the earth and that erm didn't sort of go very well for the new Manager who came in, he had a lot of undoing to do there, that this fella had given away, in his six or seven weeks there. In fact, you know, he gave the drivers and conductors a lot more than what they were really entitled to but conduct What sort of things? Well, he did there in, in the various agreements there, there were scheduling anomalies which erm, if they I can't recall the exact wording now but if they er, their average wage, working week was between forty two and forty four hours, they had to get make up pay and all that sort of thing. Well we argued that erm, they weren't entitled to it. We read the, read the agreements differently to what they did but he'd lean towards the drivers, conductors and he gave away a lot of what had tried to erm stop them from having because they weren't really entitled to it but he saw differently and gave it away and course once you've given it away you, no way of retracting it, but then came in and, well, I mean he was a real transport man, his, his vision and his ideas were really good and he made it what it is today. He was really and, lovely man to work with. He was genuine, he appreciated everything you did and I don't think you get a better manager and of course he's now under this new Transport Act when transport, this was erm, was nationalized isn't it? He, that he's now a Director of this Ipswich Buses and I don't think you can get a better man to do it because he is heart and soul in transport, he, the things that he brought in, the different innovations that he brought in were good, I mean he brought in, he brought in all this erm operated vaults and all that sort of thing and all this electronic gear that they are working now. Mm. So you, you think you had er, er er you know go back, well looking back on it. Quite happy with the way it's all gone? Oh yes, I had a good life. I, I think er erm when I first started down there, it was a job, I thought well this is a good job fifteen bob a week, that's, that's a lot more than some of the other boys who'd left school got, they were twelve and six you see and erm, I think erm I came back out of the forces and took over more responsible jobs, I don't think I could have gone to anything else but transport. You were with the public, direct contact with the public and er I would hate to have been sat in an office and just looked at four walls. I, I used to roam around the building. Go and talk to the fitters, interest myself in what made buses work and how they worked when down in the pits. I, I couldn't bear to have sit in four walls and not move Yes from the desk. It, I think I had a good life there and I've got no regrets I think to be public transport is, is a good thing. Anything to do with the public. Oh yes, right. You get, you know the slings and arrows but they don't hurt you, you, you get a lot more people who appreciate what you do than slings and bats. Oh well. Thank you very much Well I, I don't whether that's of much interest to anybody. Probably listening to it, it probably sound like a drill thank you very much indeed. Yes. or sort of characteristic behaviours of groups and the way that the dynamics happen. You've probably heard of group think haven't you? Yeah? Where members of the group all tend to think the same way, you don't get new id , new ideas are challenged. Certain types of groups only have one way of viewing problems as the right way to look at problems you don if any of you have been in the R C P, Revolutionary Communist Party, you might find that's a fairly similar sort of thing there's a party line and dimensions of what constitutes it. Erm group think is usually taken as negative. Of course it can be a very positive thing. You tend to find that groups, if you've got a group who're gonna launch a bomb y'know that that groups make far more risky or dicy de decisions than individuals. So if you look at individuals making erm decisions about punishment or some decision where there's a consequence or an element of risk, you'll find that groups quite often tend to go for more extreme behaviour than any one of the individuals in the group. There's a lot of stuff written about why that might occur . Right, there's a list of reasons why that might occur. Erm how do people sort of beco when you become a member of a group, usually in some way the group changes you as you go through different stages of it, your values may change as a result of interacting with people in the group and th this process of erm somebody's come up with how it is that you start off in a group, how it is that you become an active member of a group, how it is you may even become involved in the maintenance of the group and the leadership of it and then you sort of die away and that's the y'know retire from the group. So process is normally talk talked about group socialisation . What was in that cake you gave me? Erm and we talk about erm the stages of evolution or of a person and a group and then there's the list there. It goes through evaluation, commitment, investigation, ok? And finally there's a divergence when you sort of leave the group when your values change. So there's a sort of list of socialisation. And then there's some recent work using the concept of groups. Now, as I say, I've covered that very quickly. That is probably about two lectures worth there, ok? I mean if you go it's normally I chat about two lectures on that and you give lots of examples. Text books are very good, do read them and that about covers that part. So that's your lecture on groups and group processes. Erm I think what I'll do with these handouts is I'll let you take some for absent friends and then any that're left over are put in the reading group, shall I? So that other people can pick them up In fact there weren't that many left over because all the other ones. Okay, introduction to psychology exam notes, right? These are the things that you really want isn't it? It doesn't tell you anything I haven't already told you but it gives you reassurance . There's only one sheet. D'you wanna pick them off the front at the end? Yeah? Well a cos then you can pick them up altogether if , are you with me, if you're doing the rounds for your friends cos some of them'll be on there and some'll be Pick them up from the front, it's just that some of the stuff will be at the front and some of it won't . Some of you bring picnics here don't you? . Now, it's gonna I've probably already said this to you. This will be ok the exam or paper will consist of six questions which you will do in two hours, er not all six of course. The exam paper's two hours, there'll be six questions on it and you will have to do three essays, right? They're essay type questions, they're not short answers or multi-guess. Now, two of the questions out of the six will come from developmental and four of the questions of the six will be coming from the topics that I've covered on most of s it'll come from one one of the many topics that I've c or several of the topics that I've covered. Now, the paper format hasn't quite been decided with reference to whether it will be compulsory to do at least one from each section. Right, if you've gotta do three essays now from six you have to do one from each section, then you're gonna do either two of developmental,o it's unclear exactly what the breakdown will be on that.. Er it may be that you can do three from my stuff, it may be that you can do two from developmental and one from mine. They're the two extremes. Now, from my point of view of course, all do developmental so I don't have to mark the papers, right? So er I will not be offended in the least. An if you really don't know any and you're gonna have an attempt at a question that you don't understand, make sure it's the other person's, ok? I don't want . Right. Now the areas that I've identified are the same ones as I put on the board last week. Erm so there's s I think there're about ten major things that we discussed erm what is psychology, research methods, psychoanalytical approaches, cognitive and information approaches or approach there, perception, memory, learning behaviourism, attribution and groups. Now, you'll notice the numbers in the brackets are some indication of the amount of time that we spent, the relative amount of time that we've spent on the subjects. So, what is psychology erm we spent about one week on, whereas we we spent about three weeks on memory. Now, the question pool or the topic area pool comes from topics one to ten. The way it was done was that if you imagine putting one card in for psychology, two cards in for research methods, one card in for psychoanalytical approaches, three cards in for memory and so on and so forth an then they were sort of drawn out and then when a topic had been picked the other cards were removed. So although memory, for example,ha is three times as more likely to appear on the paper than say, what is psychology or groups or perception, it's nonetheless possible that perception, groups or what is psychology could appear. Are you w so it gives you some idea, if you're gon if you're not gonna revise the whole syllabus, shame on you, erm then it gives you some indication of how to spend your revision wisely. Er but don't I mean I'm not the fact that erm some topics have a bigger number than others and others have only got one doesn't mean they won't be on the paper Now, there will be some of you who will do spot revision. You will revise three questions, perhaps one developmental, two psychology or something like that and you will hope that they come up. If they don't alright you might end up with one or two questions. In my experience of doing exams, and I'll talk to you about revision techniques in a minute, erm generally you're better off to have a broad coverage of a syllabus rather than having a shallow one, right? But there's a compromise. Clearly you don't want to know all the syllabus so you're gonna miss parts out but you're better off knowing more topics in case some of the questions are difficult on the ones that you've covered or they're not on there at all When is the exam? May. So you've got quite a lot of time Now, there's some spare ones of these on the front as well When you get this scr scrub out item number eleven which is on the back because these are the notes that w went out for the social psychology exam And I would be you'd be in a little bit of trouble if you revised wh influences of text ha b li had literature had on our lives, discuss three books, cos it ain't gonna be on this paper I'll talk to you about that You've already got some have you? Cheers Okay what I'll do is go through this and you can ask questions as we go through. Okay, these apply to any exam. Everybody make sure you cross out item number eleven because I; m not giving you any advance notice of a of questions and if I was it certainly wouldn't be that one, right, so make sure you cross it out and make sure you tell your friends who you're giving copies to that number eleven doesn't apply. Yeah so if it was somebody you didn't like you could say, here I saved you one of these, have a look at number element, very useful Okay yes, most of this is common sense erm er i what I'll do is relate it to things that I'm looking for in exam questions as we go through. Right, don't spend most of your time trying to come to grips with something that you just don't understand. I mean if you can't get it quite quickly and get to grips with it, don't waste time on it. Move on to other topic areas, right? . If there are bits that you don't understand and you're having trouble, give me a phone, I think I put my phone number on the board, give me a ring at home, give me a ring at Aston or come and see me or go and chat to your friends or go go and look at a text book but if that doesn't help, then come back, right? Don't waste your time. Other people probably understand it better than you and if you're struggling to understand it, go and ask them. And as a first resort, come and bug m. Most of my revision in my first and second years was done the night before and I managed to get through but a lot of friends who did the same didn't. I don't think it's good exam technique. You're better off doing a little and often. The only problem is you start revising at sort of three months in advance or something and then, or a month or whatever, and it comes to exam and you think you've forgotten it all. In fact you haven't. Think back to the stuff we did on memory, a little and often is a good way of trying to remember things Okay, it's useful if you've covered topic areas to actually think about writing essays about questions that you think about to get you used to the style and time s scale of actually dealing with exams. Right, we're dealing with three questions in an exam in two hours. How many minutes is that? What is it? You've gotta write three essays in, is it forty minutes? No it c forty minutes, ok? So you've got forty minutes. What people tend to do is they answer a question that they've revised well and they can easily answer and they spend an hour and a half on it and then they fi they do, I mean you know you see them answering they write you pages and pages and pages and it's a perfect answer and they get maybe ninety percent but had they spent about half as much time they'd have got seventy percent anyway because they knew most of the important bits. So don't, you get most of your marks for the first erm sort of twenty minutes writing usually unless your r I mean some of you might not get any marks at but I mean most of you will yeah you get most of your marks on the first twenty minutes. So once you get towards, take a clock in, make sure you pace yourself, and say at the end of that just put in a sort of sentence to make it look as if it's been finished off Erm, what I usually do when I do an exam is I spend the first five minutes actually looking at the questions because initially you look for the ones that you've revised and you see but there may be others there, there're you can do in a slightly different way than the way that they first appear and that might help you quite a bit, although there are no trick questions in this. I think it'll be fairly evident from the question's erm titles wh what they want. Y'know I don't think there's any ambiguity in that sense. Erm, there are no trick questions only there're s very straight forward sorts of questions that they ask. Right, let's, this is hypothetical so it is it's the first thing that comes to my head but it may I wouldn't take it as s take groups, for example, you just got the handout on groups and you get a question coming up that might say erm, I don't know, how could groups how could a w what does our understanding of groups owe to speech therapy? Now I wouldn't put a question in that related to speech therapy in that way cos it's far too complicated right for for you, but, completely hypothetical, and then what normally happens is people think groups and they just spew the lot out, right? You get that back, right? But in handwriting that's under exam conditions with grammar to match, right, and you g and you get pages of it an most of which is absolutely irrelevant if you look at the question. Now, because it's first year exam, what tends to happen is you to tend to ok regurgitate the stuff you let through. In a final year paper you just put a line through that and say, that doesn't answer the question. So it's good exam skills. I mean those, by and large, those who who need to listen to what I'm saying to and take it on board won't and those who already do don't need it anyway but they'll take it on board . So, answer the question, right? It's usually worth putting an introduction in. Er a few sentences saying erm th q I y'know define your terms, talk about how you're gonna answer the questions, just an introductory paragraph and that usually sets it up to how you're gonna answer it. Make your answer relevant, actually addresses issues to the question. I'm not sure of your backgrounds you see. With psychologists, most of them've done English and and history or some, they've done essay type questions that're geared to answering questions. Erm, if you're not used to that then perhaps this'll be more useful. Now one of the things that you tend to find is that if you were to ask about groups then people regurgitate all the stuff about groups but with most questions you can usually see links to other parts of the syllabus. Bring them in, show that you've actually thought more generally and you can see how you can bring different parts of the syllabus in because that's the novelty, that's what makes a piece of work stand out. If two of you regurgitate the notes perfectly generally in line with answering the question but then one of you brings in only a few sentences saying, well this could be accounted for with di dum di dum or, if we think about learning and er behaviourism, this has something to say about that. You don't need to write another essay, you just need to acknowledge that you can see a link between the work and that actually makes the work look a l a lot better, a lot more rounded, so that's a cheap way of getting marks. Erm, referencing things. Okay, if you're talking about child development, you're gonna use , if you're talking about er psychoanalysis you're gonna use Freud, or psychoanalytical techniques. If you're talking about learning theory, well I've given you a few names. I don't expect you to remember Higginbottom and Smith fifty four y'know I don't expect that in an exam. Try and remember the key names though, right, that associate with the sort of concepts that you want to discuss. It always helps. Whatever you do don't put that geyser who er bald headed and looks like Clement Freud or w y'know, nothing like that, ok? So, referencing. For an essay referencing is extremely important but for exams it's nt but just get the names in not necessarily the years Okay, when you think of erm any, when you're revising stuff and you want to learn studies, try and put them in a context. Put them in the context of the times. Were they in the fifties, sixties or the seventies? If they're the seventies, think of people in kipper ties on the O U and flares and things like that. Y'know, try and place a historical context to the work and see how it influenced other works. So if you're talking about somebody's, I mean why was behaviourism for exa , if you think about the major topic areas that we've done, there's a historical sequence to them. You've got the psychoanalytical approaches which came out of Vienna, you've got behaviourism at the 1920's and then you've got the emergence of cognitive in the fifties and sixties, so there's already a sort of historical structure there. I don't need to erm elaborate much more Okay, the give it, give it a mechanical structure, well that doesn't necessarily apply to some of the things that we've done but it does to other parts and if you're gonna discuss somebody's model, think about it in the real world. Think about simplifying it and actually having examples of it. So if you're gonna talk about, what did we do last week? What's the one with the boxes and whether or not people, what was it about? Attribution? Whether you'd attribute it to the actor or the situation, yeah? That model for example. Think of examples, it makes life a lot easier. Think of clear cut examples that demonstrate the model . Okay, er practice makes imperfect. Don't don't erm just revise three questions and keep re y'know writing those topic areas and certain limited questions. Erm I didn't see any past pa I did see some past papers but it was subsequent to my setting these exam questions, right? So these are not based, they they are similar, they're not out of line but erm they I mean I don't think that you can necessarily pick up from past exam papers what'll be on the next. The best bit of information you've got is the syllabus coverage that I've given you. That gives you some guidance. Erm, try I mean psychology is actually finding the text books quite interesting y'know. As I got into psychology I'd read text books at nights, it's sad isn't it? But I did, right? They're the interesting psychology. If you I mean if you see some interesting stuff just r it tends to go in. I mean, find stuff that's actually interesting. The bigger thick American social text books for example are very good on social. Have a look at the introd the erm I find is a bit sort of sleepy, I tend to go to sleep, but the and quite got nice big pictures and interesting stories. I mean just read round for fun yo and see if there's anything that sticks and if you get chance to use it in an exam, do Okay, then it says develop a stock of gems. All it's saying there is, if you do find something from erm other bits of the text books that we haven't covered in lectures, bung it it. I I mean if you put stuff in that wasn't in the lectures and it's relevant I mean that's lot of brownie points, yeah? So think about that, there's ways of doing that Yeah, I it's incredible when you see erm th who was it? She was a bio-chemist and one of her abilities was a phenomenal memory. D'you remember the erm, you can't get a better bit of butter on your knife, Country Life butter adverts? Well we were trying to remember the lines to that and she came in and for about half an hour she gave a rendition. She said, well there wasn't only one version of that y'know and she knew the lot and there were all the d slightly different versions y'know, on the country gate and things like that. And she was going through and she knew them and er she was going into I it was her second year bio-chemistry exams on the bus and she's got a bi a text book on bio-chemistry and she's reading the introduction bit before you even get into proper bio-chemistry and Michael s look leant across and said, what on earth are you doing? And she said I'm revising. He said, but the exams in half an hour and she said that's right. He said well why are you reading that bit? She said, you've gotta start somewhere. Don't for God's sake, do that y'know it's what I find is, once panic sets in w and that's usually either the night before or the day, I d anything that I try and read doesn't really go in very well. You're better off, you're much, and don't stay up late. The only time I've ever frozen in an exam was when I'd gone for three exams solid without kip, one after the other, and I just brain and the other ones were a real struggle and I had to graft my marks out of solid granite y'know I was chiselling away. And then, for the first time ever in my life, I what I normally do is I have sort of maybe some questions that I definitely pre-plan and if I'm lucky one or two of them, and this paper all three of my prepared questions actually came up exactly as I'd worded them, or near enough. And I looked, I wrote the first one, first class answer and I thought, this is a doddle, and I'd done three days then or two nights without kip, and I sort of and erm suddenly I f and I went Smith nineteen forty? And I couldn't remember it was forty four and my mind went totally blank and I had to walk out of the exam for over half an hour with a and I couldn't remember a thing and went back in. I passed but that w I mean it was so, it was lack of sleep and the worst thing was the chap who was marking the paper said er, when I was there, he said, I told him what had happened and he said er, did you get much sleep last night? And the last thing you wanna say to somebody who's gonna be marking your paper is, oh yeah I stayed up all night revising for this. I mean, that wasn't gonna work. So don't stay, I I've generally found most people who stay up all night revising it doesn't do them any good. You're much better off having a fresh brain in the morning and ha being able to think on your feet. So so don't don't leave revision till the last minute. Make notes. When you go through your notes now they're a very good start for revision. Make notes as you go through. You won't remember them after if you don't look at them for a week but when you come to look at them the night before you'll be surprised what you do know. But it's no good starting from scratch the night before, or it is but I mean you'll you'll suffer for it. Right, look at an exam paper. I think erm Winston Churchill when he went for his Eton exam or the entrance exam to Eton or something and erm y'know they asked some question and he and he goes on and erm after five minutes he wrote his name, very neatly, right? If you don't know what you're doing, do it neatly. I mean that's that's, it's true as well. It works a tr . You get away, as long as you do it neatly you're usually alright. Erm, good thing is to actually say, to define the terms of the question and say how you're gonna answer them. It's money for old rope. Y'know what is, you might say, if you got a question on groups, I'm using groups hypothetically here because that's the thing that we've just done, ok? There's no relationship between that and whether it's on the exam or not. You can't infer that, right? I'm not trying to throw you here. And erm what you might say is, well what is a group? Y'know jus and things that you already n and just that'll give you a nice little gentle start to the paragraph. We're working on sleep- learning, over here? Is it ? . It doesn't go in. The work on subliminal learning doesn't work Okay, Brown suggests that you bring a c wardrobe of cuddly toys and mementoes and things like that that were in the room when you were learning, context dependent learning. I don't think I'd suggest that, right? But do bring something from home, little little l y'know it can be useful Y d computer? Right, some people take the attitude of, well I'll do the difficult questions first because I know the easy ones. It never works that way. Do the easy ones first, the ones that you can definitely answer, rattle those of as quickly as you can so then you know what time you've got to spend on the difficult ones That's a very good point. Make sure you leave at least a page at the end of each question in case you suddenly g cos what can often happen is you're writing the answer to one and you think, oh that relates to the earlier one. Bang it in. So leave a space so er usually a page, a whole blank page in between your answers if they're in the same booklet Now that's very true. Don't waste time again struggling. If you start struggling with a piece, just stop it, work out where the next question'll roughly start and start r answering another one and the come back to it later. It's not a bad idea to chop and change if you get stuck. It'll it ensures that you're productive for most of the time. Erm, generally speaking, the people who get firsts are the ones who can write neatly very quickly and that does help. Erm but, having said that, I mean some of the worst ones are the ones that just go on and on and on about drivel. So I mean y'know j it may help you get a first class mark if you're a good candidate by writing lots, but generally writing lots doesn't ensure that you get a good mark. It may affect the top of the scale but it's certainly not most of it Yeah, when it becomes desperate, ok? If it ever does. Just talk about examples of your everyday life that sort of illustrate in some ways some aspect of the question. It doesn't have to be academically rigorous. I mean and usually it will you see most people are looking to past students when they mark. You actually, if they don't do the r if they don't actually put anything down then you can't conjure it out of nothing but as long as you can get the benefit of the doubt then you'll prob y'know we'll give it to you. Well I will, and most people I know. I haven't met anybody yet who's punitive on student's work. People're looking to pass you. Erm, now what that means is, if you can't answer the question and you've only got a few lines down then sort of trying t w blur it a little bit and make it waffly so that there's something we can point to and say that you've written something, right? Tha this is for the desperate people. If you've got a per perfectly good answer, don't start writing a load of waffle as well because it'll only detract from your mark. But if you're really stuck and you've got a third question that you can't come up with I mean y'know sort of blur it, fudge it and make it look like there's a sort of metamorphic answer there and we can sort of say well that's sort of twenty percent or something and then that counts and it may carry you over. It's only for the people who get desperate and get stuck. Erm, we I won't be there to invigilate the exam but usually there's some, I mean if you get stuck and you want a break just stick your hand up, but not everybody cos everybody can't go to the toilet. But I mean y'know ah y'know g if you want if you're in that s if you're getting a bit worried about it, do get out of the room for a bit and then come back in later. Now, if you've got a block of exams, don't go straight from one exam to the other. Have a kip or a rest in between. Don't go down the pub though, that probably won't do you any good Now, that covers exam techniques in general and what I'm we're looking for in papers. In terms of I mean how much can you actually write in forty minutes? It's not very much is it? Yeah? I would imagine that an adequate answer to a question could be done very easily with one side of that. That that's not much but if it's if it's I mean if it's not padded out with waffle and drivel cos you I mean if it's a good ti concise answer that'll probably get a good mark. If tha if it's a short answer, concise but answers the question, you'll get a better mark than a much more wordier answer that doesn't address the question. How're we doing for time? Five past twelve. Okay, I'm not saying to go. Questions about the exam? Right? So y w feel free now to ask questions I mean, you must have something that worries you about about this partic I can only really talk about the exam. I don't know the system here but I know what I'm doing with those papers. Do I have sampl ? I don't have sample question papers, but you do have one from previous years. But really the questions that you tend to get erm are things like, critically evaluate and discuss. Now if it means critically evaluate and discuss w it doesn't mean you just write a load of criticisms of it. What you actually do is erm list what it is that you're gonna critically evaluate. Now usually that's what students are very good at because they've learnt something about that. What students aren't so good about is actually critically evaluating it. Usually what critical evaluation would mean, for example, is to erm actually compare erm the model or the theory with what happen in practice. Compare it with other theories, try and look for the limitations of it. It's you don't have to be an Einstein to critically evaluate something. In fact, most of the criticisms and critics of theories are self-evident, they're not that difficult, yeah? Erm, compare and contrast. If that's in the question, then do compare and do contrast. I'm not sure what the difference is. Comparing and contrasting. Anybody have an idea what the difference might be between comparing and contr ? Sorry s one of you ov green jumper at the back who gave me your cake. Similarities and differences. Compare. Well compare probably means you'd define both of them wouldn't you? And contrast means you then compare th a compare means you look at the similar yeah it could be the similarities and differences, I quite like that. It's quite nice and simple, isn't it? No sample questions but I mean in terms of the syllabus that you've got there is y'know you're much better off just having an understanding of it. You ca there's no sort of questions that sort of s jump out of a text anyway. I mean not gonna ask you anything difficult. You have nothing to fear in this exam at all if you d if you revise, right? Even if you b I I I would imagine that many of you, based on the notes alone that you've got from here, without any reading, would probably get through So, you've got nothing to worry about as long as you do the work. I think that's what it boils down to. If you leave it til the last minute and you question spot, you might end up in a sticky situation How many people here have failed an exam? One two three four five six seven. So most people haven't in fact failed exams. How often do you fail exams? You don't. That's why you're here. If you did, if you failed them on a regular basis, you wouldn't be here, right? If you look at the statistics I would in don't forget there's a re-sit paper. Now the re-s yeah? The re-sit paper will take the same format as the original paper. Now, generally speaking wi I I I've act what I've done for the re-sit paper is that I I pooled a load of questions, some of which went to the first paper and some of which went to the ne and some of which went to the re-sit paper so I don't know which topics are coming up erm on the re-sit paper. However, they will be drawn from the same list of topics that're on the first and there may be some overlap. Generally speaking, re-sit paper erm will contain at least one question very similar to a question on the first paper. Er I, does anybody know where the past papers are kept? Yeah, in the library, that's where I'd usually go and look for them What was that? Where's the library? Yes What was the handout that you got from on Skinner? You had a single sheet, first of all the Oh, was that the article by Skinner? Well first of all i Erm, did anybody else have that problem? Well I er agree with it but I mean you understood it presumably then. I mean that's wh who had difficulty with the Skinner thing? Who was there of course? If you didn't bother turning up and reading it then that was no p The Skinner seminar, as far as I can remember, you've gotta bear in mind I I mean it must be eight nine years ago I probably read Skinner in earnest, yeah? Erm my understanding of the paper that we had for the seminar was that it discussed the nature of explanation. Skinner was trying to talk about psychology as a science because a lot of psychology at the time wasn't and if you ask pe I'm sorry that my sort of talking's coinciding with people's conversations but er er will you try and finish it. Er the reason for the book that was written at that particular time was that that i you've gotta remember it was, what was it? What year was it? Nineteen fifty? Nineteen fifty-three. Most people didn't even know the nature of scientific explanation and things like that. So in a way we've covered aspects of that seminar in, what is science? Okay, Skinner talks about scientific explanation in that, so that's what he's addressing in that particular paper. He then advocates erm an approach based on a functional analysis of behaviour. Now a functional analysis of behaviour is o a a function is where you draw a box around something and you say it's got inputs and there's an output and the thing in between in the function that relates inputs to outputs. You're not interested in how it achieves the function, you just observe the function. So wh I mean it's all to do with behaviourism in the sense that, rather than being concerned with the mechanisms that iner er what's the word? Mediate behaviour that go on inside the head. What you do is, you look at the environment and consider like the inputs and then you look at behaviour as outputs and you learn the relationship between the two and you don't neces you don't have to understand what goes on inside. Now I remember you quite strongly disagreed with the notion that in fact if you don't know behaviour itself from w our own experiences, we behave differently in different situa in very similar situations and it's based on our interpretation of the stimulus. And that I mean is one of the major criticisms against a functional approach, that sometimes you need to know what's going on inside the box fully to be able to fully appreciate the behaviour anyway. But ultimately most theories will be reduced to their functional component. There will be something that you draw a black box around and you describe purely in references to it's inputs and outputs. So I think the seminar itself wasn't giving you much new stuff, it was stuff that we've already picked up in the course. And I I mean, for example, he was talking about astrology as a way of predicting. Well we discussed that right in day one, what's the difference between astrologists and psychologists and we explored the differences No, I drafted the questions so erm well I'm not saying there's nothing on behaviourism in the paper, I'm not saying there is. But I mean if you had a question on behaviourism I mean look at w=what did we cover in your notes? If we had a car if we had a question on psychoanalysis? If we had a question on perception? What did we cover in your notes? I'm not gonna ask you questions that you don't und that I don't expect you to understand. It's not in my interests to to mark another fifty papers. Erm, do write big and and and with yeah do write big so that I can read it. Don't scrawl it please. If I can read it, it puts me in a far better mood. Just make your handwriting as clear as possible under the circumstances because it's er it'll speed the process up quite a bit Well, what d t I think if you draw a pl if you draw a plan, er that certainly should be taken i I I mean if you don't want me to consider the plan, put a line through it, yeah? If you do not want me to cons y'know if you put, this is a load of effing sh or whatever and then suddenly you suddenly realise that you might actually pass so you then I mean cross it out, I'll pretend it's not there, ok? So anything you don't want me to take into account when it's being marked, put a line through it, otherwise I will. A plan is actually a very good thing to put in. In my experience I c if I do a plan I haven't got enough time to write the essay. I don't know if anybody else finds that. The defe most people, if they've revised, would do very well on any one of these as a single essay if they were given three hours. If you were given three hours to collect your thoughts and write it down, you'd all d excuse me, hello, right. The chances are that, if you were all given a lot of time to write each essay without your notes and you just sat at a desk and had about three hours on each question, you'd all do very well. The fact is, it's condensed into a very short space of time so you haven't got much chance to think. A plan is a very good way of addressing that but unless you can get a plan out in under five minutes, yeah, then it mi you might consider a better use of your time. I don't know. I mean, is u it isn't very long, is it? Forty minutes, for an essay? My spelling is awful by the way so the chances are I won't spot any spelling mistakes, yeah? So don't worry about spelling o Any other questions? I'm sure you must have some Who's n I mean ho I pres how many of you have come in here without on A levels that didn't require you to write an essay? Put your hand up, I ca Okay, it may be worth, in that case, having a look at past papers and having a go at writing the essays. Now, the seminar session that I'm going to run, we can eith we'll have Jeannie set up but we can sort of kick off with a discussion about topics that you want to cover in the revision Another possibility for the seminar is that if you want to bring some notes along to a sort of, if you show me a if you dream up hypothetical questions and then put a plan to answer them so that I can skim down it in about a minute or two. So you're not writing an essay, what you're doing is saying, well if this question came up, this is how I would answer it, then what I will do is give you feedback there and then on wh what else you can include and what else you can't. But if you give me a blank sheet of paper and put a question, I'm not really gonna tell you what you should include and what you shouldn't, yeah? So make use of the seminar time. Bring along questions to do with revision, bring along planned essays that you've written if you want me to have a look at them. I haven't got time to er mark them all in a formal sense, so just bring a plan y'know if y give me somebody give me a mock title cos I'm very reluctant to dream up titles under these circumstances Okay, compare and contrast two theories of aggression. Now we've not done aggression, so there's absolutely no way that you're expected to know anything about it, but that's a typical question that you might get on a social psychology paper. Then what you might say is well what ar y'know erm you might say well s one define aggression, two define one theory, define the other and then y'know just structure it so you're talking about single or sentences maybe on on a line that go down to very little but enough to show how you would go about answering the question . Anything else? There is a pos Can you read it to me I I can't Don't forget if you, have written any essays for anything else, as course work? Okay, erm the quality of exam I mean there'll be some people here who will feel embarrassed to have submitted the work that they've written, right? I have felt embarrassed because I've had to meet people afterwards who I who I who I care what they think about me and I've put in the biggest load of old rubbish. You get used to seeing it, right? You get used to seeing insulting poems about you, all sorts of things on exam papers from students, right? So and i I mean you read them in a they're marked within five to ten minutes, yeah? Scripts fifteen minutes at most. I'm not looking to give you constructive feedback on them, I'm just looking to see what grade it gets so you go down and put it in a pigeon hole. Do not worry about the quality of the essays. There is a mar if you got a two two for a piece of course work, ok, it would easily get an equivalent two two in an exam would be the eq would be about a third or a pass, yeah? The the grades, you do not mark the essays that you've put in at course work t erm you don't mark the exam questions to the same rigorous standard. I mean, most people are in an absolute state of terror in exams and it comes across. It's an awful way of assessing people. I don't think it's very fair at all. It doesn't get at what you want either but it's one of the system that we've got So if you write something th that you for a piece of, an essay that you got say a two one for and then you write an appalling piece, you might still get a two one for it under exam conditions Is there anybody who has w or has trouble writing fast? Seri I mean due to some physical difficulties or or whatever. Because if there are you can arrange for things li if you if you break or sprain, you start getting strain or whatever you can ask for an amanuensis Oh, you're interested now, oh what's an aman where's the dictionary? The dictionary isn't here. Oh, we haven't got one. Now, I'm not shu how do you think you're spelling amanuensis? It's either E or A, could be amanuensis,ema amanuensis, it's somebody who sits beside you and you dictate to them. I'm sure if receives a plea for twenty amanuensis from the first year speech therapists there might be some eyebrows raised I'm s can you shout? Okay, er generally speaking the vocabulary that you've been taught within the lecture series is the vocabulary you should use where possible. It looks like you know what you're talking about, doesn't mean you do but i I mean if you use th if you if you start going on about that thing that there is er when some what on earth? But the independent variable then we get there quite easily Have you found it? I think it begins, is it A E I? No, it's it's erm it's somebody who, all they do is write your answers for you but dictated I m if you've ever been an em especially I mean I used to be I usually end up doing the amanuensing for courses that I've taught on students on my paper. It's because you can't just sit down and di if you don't know how to spell, I can't spell anyway, d'you know when I did it, the student actually wrote a letter to me and to th or to the exam board car saying that this hand-writing is appalling and the spelling, it's due to the person who was doing the amanuensing, rather th but I was marking it anyway so it didn't really matter, but they were so distressed at the handwriting that I produced. Erm, the trouble is, if you don't know the vocabulary it's very hard to dictate and write down because you have to keep stopping and asking them to spell things. Erm, the other thing is, if you know anything about the subject, which most amanuensists should do, you actually start filling in the gaps. Y'know you a you're going along and they'll say group, and you write therapy or something y'know and you've done it and you think whoops and you just hope, and the worst thing is when they say Smith and Jones and you put seventy nine in and you think, shit and y'know they get the thing slightly wrong Draw up a revision plan, pick out the topics that you're going to revise Any problems, bring them along to the seminar. Now, any more questions that might benefit? Is there anything that's unclear apart from the series of lectures? Okay,wh with regards to, if I was teaching this next year to the first years, what changes would you recommend I make? Apart from sack myself? You don't like the overheads Okay, overheads are boring. Would you go with that? The problem I must admit the problem that surprised me with overheads is that erm people can't write and listen at the same time, or the other thing is, you put something on an overhead th every bit of it gets written down which is why I adapted it so that you did. The idea was I was using them as sub-headings originally but then people were kept y'know slowing d it's erm very hard to work out whether what you actually want is a good detailed set of notes. I think handouts ma you you're all sort of absolutely your eyes lit up when the little handouts came round. Erm, so it might be an idea to talk around handouts and perhaps use the O H P occasionally, yeah? Well we don't really actually have any schools si I mean schools of psychology were a thing of the fifties really, there's no identifiable school of psychol The problem is in fact that's exa in fact I did that right at the start, right? The first lecture I gave I was going on about the different approaches to psychology. Have you got all the handouts that you need? I'm not giving any more so you should have thr erm three main handouts, groups, yeah? Erm but the trouble is of course it doesn't go in. If I say to you behaviourism is about di dum di dum and I did but obviously it didn't sink in at the time. Perhaps more time labouring them and giving a more a briefer introduction to them may be, erm a more in-depth introduction? Hello? Right, I think it's always been time-tabled for two hours though Well the alternative would be to have had the tea break in between Mhm, do you have many other two hour slots? No you're not but in fact studies show after about the first ten minutes, people aren't absorbing much anyway It's true, most studies show I mean if, lectures are one of the way of delivering information I think Yeah, but they wouldn't pay me for the hour I was sitting there doing nothing you see Well but there again that's not your problem is it? I mean how they ch the fact they choose to sub-contract out to me is one thing, yeah, I mean that's their problem in that sense. No but I mean I I I was planning on having a break in the middle but y most of you voted and you wanted a break at the start but perhaps it would've, but then you you'd have been going straight on from s w phonetics How much of this is a consensus by the way? I mean a few people are talking, how many of you agree with that? That two hours is two long? And ho Well it's and how many of you would want the break? And if we did So you're going for the hour slots aren't you really? That's right but I think j I think just the fact that you're doing psychology and then psychology again in a way I think that's the pr I agree with you, what you're really saying is, I mean how many people would object, or how many people would prefer to have the straight two hours rather than the two single hours? Yeah, I'm in favour of videos and things like that Yeah, ok, I'll bear that in m is somebody writing this down at all? I know we've got it on this actually so, but I'm thinking of the course reps. Who are the course reps? Okay you, I mean is any of this of any use to you? What I'll do, actually what I'll do is I'll take you name and I'll send you a transcript of it, yeah? I'll pick out the points cos I'm gonna send it to anyway to say that th y'know I personally think two hours is too much for me. I don't like sitting here for two hours. Erm, I also think that if you have two hours, a video and a talk would be better. Erm I think that's that worked quite well but there is a bit of I I suspect if I was to show a video every week there's a reluctance th for people to want to pay me in a sense. Y'know they feel that if they're paying me to teach yeah Right, the trouble i the problem that we do have is a very big syllabus that I was given. I wouldn't have covered half the things that we covered in that time, yeah? And the other thing is that it's er a wide syllabus is fine as long as you're not expected to go in any depth, but you're expected to go sort of both, a broad syllabus and into a little bit of depth more than perhaps erm I mean in effect I mean you're not far off of covering A level psychology at this at tha the level we're going to. We don't cover the breadth of A level but I think the depth is getting close to it. So if you're doing A level psychol y'know I think perhaps you ought to say, ok what we'll do is go for less depth but a more general approach. That may be it, and perhaps one or two topics only we go into some depth on. I think that may be an idea. So, overhead are out. That's a shame because I don't normally use overheads and I've got into them this year and er my stats group in particular, who get the same sort of treatment as you do, have actually said th Right That's right the prob that's The the problem that we did have, I mean my normal lecturing style until here in fact, was that I would just waffle y'know and generally do a few bits on the board and then carry on for an hour or two but the sh people weren't getting the notes down, that was the problem with that. Now, note taking is a skill in the sense that y'know the final years you wouldn't, final year lecturers I mean are so waffly and ah go off in all directions because of different people. I mean it's hard t y I mean you come away with a list of t things that you've talked about, maybe headings and that's about it and then you go and build your own notes up. I think there was a lot more concern here with getting a good set of notes that you can revise from. Maybe by the t I mean so my lecturing style was I I geared if you like towards a more, you go off and do some reading based on the following topics and I agree with you, that was too vague given the the fact you're not psychologists. Y'know, I mean you're here to do speech therapy. I think what we may get away with then is handouts and less overheads. I think that would do the trick but preparing handou I mean I was doing those till two, this lot for you this mor I'm absolutely y'know it's quite hard work when you're concurrently teaching all the time. If I'm not teaching I'm marking in th to actually get a lecture through cos I was given this with about a weeks' notice you see, so I didn't have a chance to prepare the stuff for this course other than as we go along Right? But I te I agree with those points, I mean most of them I go along with. It's not very interesting for me to waffle for two hours. Other points? There's only half the class so you can't really throw many eggs and rotten tomatoes and things can you? Okay, you tell me. How's your first year going then cos you've nearly finished it now? Generally All glad you did speech therapy? Really? I mean i a how many people are a bit disillusioned with the whole business since they started, from how they initially set off? Couple? I know s I've chatted to some other people and they've said the same so you're not alone. You haven't done much speech therapy which seems to be the main problem. You don't even, do you get a chance to look at speech therapists in action? Pardon? Yeah, what surprised me is, I mean you don't wanna let you loose on the general public, with with due respect, I mean you don but but you should certainly be, I mean I'm surprised they don't take you somew have videos showing you sessions in practice and things like that You do go out place ? When? Right but the first year I mean you wanna get the I'm surprised Mhm Now, I agree with the point that you've just made and I've heard some other people say, well the teaching that they've got so far isn't going to influence what they see in their second year. So that might be worth bearing in mind. But it's tr it's true in most, if you do clinical medicine erm er ophthalmic optics you don't get to play with the patients until quite a way on, and most of them don't even get a chance to observe for a lot of it. I mean if you're doing me medicine, for the first couple of years you you're just doing text book work aren't you, mostly? And a bit of lab stuff? Mhm? But your course is a very good erm non-drop out rate. Most cour I mean you nor you can get up to about ten percent on most cou on a lot of courses, where people leave after the first term. Here, one person out of fifty over the year isn't bad, is it? Three? Oh, who else is gone? Oh the the boy that you got rid of, yeah. Very careless of you wasn't it? Mind you, what was he like? Not bad Not bad? Are there any particular topics that you think would have been useful to have seen in the course that weren't? And are there any bits of the course you'd rather not have done? Well no apart from all of it, but a . Right, things we'd like to see in psychology Is there any I mean any the trouble is you don't know what's on the menu so it's hard to but I mean what sort what sort of things would you like to have seen from pr what you have a ? A question? So sort of yeah, how to deal with people, inter-personal? I think you'll probably get that next year though. I think you've had the crash course and inter-personal communication is next year Okay Of communication. I I think what we may be able t I mean yes I think that what you may be able to do is jiggle things about so that, you don't get much social psychology until the end I know I mean there wasn't really much time Right, I'll make a note of that Okay, somebody suggested that the communication essay or which reflects the communication model w in the hand book it says that you've had input from linguists, er sociologists, psychologists and people like that and in fact you haven't I think that Okay, any more? How're we doing for time? Well, unless somebody can come up with something to talk about, I think we might as well go. Anybody who has any concerns or questions I I'm gonna be here for a few minutes. Good luck, been fun teaching you. The race is on for the spare hand-outs . So Mr , can you tell me whereabouts you were born in Nottingham and when? Well it so happens I was not born in Nottingham, though my early memories are of Nottingham, right even from infant school, which er started at five years of age till about seven. But in fact I was born in , Northamptonshire. My father being a railwayman and er asking and doing various jobs from being ordinary shunter and man-about, eventually graduated by way of He's he was a Lancashire man, you see? And the family really come from in Lancashire? Which is a considerably humble place. Anyway he went about in railway jobs as the years went by and I was born in , taken with the rest to Leicester, City of Leicester, but my early memories was in Nottingham. I don't remember the prior, it's what my parents have told me and the birth certificate shows, of course. And so the first memories is in the meadows of Nottingham, going to infant school about the age don't remember starting, but perhaps I'd be six years of age, and it was a little church school and they were all lady teachers and most of them Mrs and not the Miss which is nowadays er more common. And strange to say, it had coal fires in the winter, huge coal fires to keep it warm, or attempt to do, and most of the classrooms were only divided by portable partitions so that while we went from class to class as the two or three years went by,it really was in one long building and quite adequate for the time. How big were the classes then? Can you recall that? I recall being in the first class and er a teacher coming to me, as I weren't paying much attention I think, and to this day I shall remember and never forget, she just folded my arms in front of me and says, Percy, you're not listening, you'll have to have a rest. And she put my head on my hands on the desk in front of me and believe me, I went to sleep, it was must have been very, very new, compared to being at home and perhaps being laid there. But they're they were all kind ladies and er the thing that they punished us with really was made of cardboard, like er, er a pointer or a stick, it was a pointer that they pointed to the board when they drew things on and told us about them, but sometimes boys By the way, boy sat with girl, at the desk with two in and er it was quite satisfactory, I don't remember any other upset with being there th th th there were two sexes, we were five years of age to begin with and stayed till seven. Anyway, that took a year or two and I even remember taking my next brother to school, me mother saying Take Frank to school and tell Miss , he's your brother and he's five. So I did and it's very strange I remember toddling off with this little chap and er and Miss said, Who is this then? or words to that effect. And remember now, the language of the day, said It's our Frank. And er that was all the particulars I think Miss ever got for him. And that er church school took us to the standard, at that time, called standard one, which was in a big school, about half a mile away and was built by the Nottingham Education Committee and was one of say, six or eight in the Nottingham area, I suppose. And there was a far cry from the kind lady who would lay one's head on a desk and say, You have a sleep. And er In wh In what ways was was it a far cry? How how did the contrast strike you? Well although it was so near, it was really a mining district and ninety percent of the boys We were at separate schools by the way, the ground floors were boys, from the age of seven upwards, till fourteen. Upstairs were the girls, from the similar ages and and one wing of this big school was infants. Which I hadn't known about or my mother and otherwise living near enough they could have s done that school and gone through from five years to er fourteen. Anyway, standard one was a breaking-in for this er other discipline and not quite so easy and learning how to spell. And teacher would er tell us that next week with her spelling lesson she'd want a new word, would we learn one at home? And er er the week following we'd all have to spell the word we'd chose. And it was a simple as that . Again, Oh we'd graduated then from pencils and paper, to pen and ink and paper, the ink being in er a well sunk in the desk in front of us. Each boy had a inkwell and er a pen, blue-black ink and so on and some of the small books that we used for writing in were kept under the desk. Most of the textbooks, were handed to us came from cupboards of storage, of which they must have had about sixty each, those classes were always, from then on, sixty boys in a class for one teacher. Er standard one was er no trouble, except er er pretty timid, remember being timid, the boys could be very rough in play and there was much nudging in the playground as they ran about at their various games. And so to standard two, where the That was th the next year, each class was expected to take about a year, which it did. In st in standard two though, having passed through there, the Headmaster came in near the end of the second year and said because of the number of scholars er some boys would have to miss standard three because there was too many for the class. They could er er er because thi it this would be a birthrate problem not known to us as boys and I along with seven or eight others, were taken to the standard four to start, after the holidays, which was in August. We had a month's holiday in August every year. But to break us into this new er schooling the Headmaster had us in various mornings for an hour and was supposed, well tried, to make a sort of summary of what the lesson would have been in standard three . And believe it or not, one of the subjects was er the geography of England. Now, to this day, I'm a dunce at the geography of England, I know where the principle towns are, I know you go north to Manchester and south to London and generally get about. But the intricacies, I know more about Europe, eventually , and other countries, due to not being having a a briefing by a Headmaster for half an hour of something The group of us, he had eight to ten of us in the room trying to prime us on what we'd missed for a year. And and many times I apologize for asking where various places are, because I just can't visualize Most of the other things from school come without being beckoned, er one thinks of er the economy, they taught about us about various things of the economy. Oh, by this time, er being born in nineteen hundred and five, by nineteen fourteen, that was nine years, the Great War started. Yes, what what impact did that have upon your schooling ? The Great War started and took the scho er This Road school had all men teachers extep except standard one, which was an introduction from infants to grown-up and a matronly lady always called Miss , er broke us into this new sort of discipline and sternness really. The rest er er standard two to standard six, were all male, but lo and behold before I got to standard five, that had all become women and the men had all gone to the into the services. Because although that war didn't have conscription in nineteen fourteen or nineteen fifteen, I believe it started in nineteen sixteen, back end, and er we we'd got all women teachers who were quite a different problem from a school of that nature. Cos a boy in standard five could be getting on for thirteen. There were quite a few dunces,and er some didn't always get moved on and they didn't all make it into the top class, they had to stop again for another year, or period, in the class they were. Yes, I was going to ask, what well, what effect did the er er the substitution of the the male teachers by the women teachers during the the the Great War period? H How do you think it affected the schooling? Well, in my observation, as regards young boys, it er th they played could play them up, the lads would play pranks on the teacher, who would put the best on it for a long time. Worse come to the worse, she brought the Headmaster in with his cane and he was er like the one in the stories, skilled to rule, but anyway his most proficiency was wielding this cane, which was a good three foot long. It wasn't the things you go fishing with, it was a s solid cane of er not hollow, and er I never knew him have another one. But if even if one was late from for school, he had a monitor on the doors to the outside world and when the whistle went for nine o'clock that door was closed and there The boys marshalled in the yard to er get in the lines and marched to the classes. He then dealt with those who were late and those who were late would then appear to be six or seven minutes late because of these other preliminaries. But he brooked nothing, he just asked er, What's made you late? And there's various reasons, whether your mother wanted some milk bringing. By the way, this was the period when I could to a milk shop for a hape'orth of milk, but it's not the halfpenny that people think now, cos the currency's been altered quite a lot, it was very trifling, but it's true. Milk, a little dip of milk was sold, into a jug, there were no bottles, and er you could get some for a ha'penny. And so, you could be late for various things like that, but you got the stick. Oh, so whatever. And er Did it happen frequently? Children getting the stick ? It happened everyday for those who were late. Eventually, the discipline is such as one used your influence on your mother and so if I'm late I'll get the cane, and so on. So er it wasn't pleasant and I didn't have it a lot either, because I never were very big, and I never liked punishment, it made me cry every time. It did, really. It's a cruel thing and especially to hit a boy on his right hand and then expect him to write with it. This I found, at various times, my fingers were suffering from this wallop in the oh, at ten past nine in the morning. But anyway, most things were like that, I think it had to be something like, In his noisy mansion, skilled to rule. It had to be, he had to do something or they would never have er got In other ways in was a lenient school because as the years went by it was, a register was called, a teacher er opened a book and we called numbers. Alas, I found that , my surname, spelt , was always first on the register whichever class I was, so I was number one. And er,l er those whose names er began with er later initials in the alphabet and we didn't have any Z 's, there were no Zilliachas in those days. But they were some well on, lo and behold, could open the door er two or three minutes late and c er call the er number, Yes sir, er as they entered the class and they would get their mark, this being I think you got a red mark if you were late,t to stand out so that an inspector who came down periodically could look down the register and there was the record of who was early and who was late by the colour of the ink-pens, I think. So that was a strange thing too, with this er alphabetical thing. So The only Excuse me, er no, we even had Abbot, A double B, er didn't always get in front but I think it should have done you know, you take the first letter and then you take the . We had Askews and all sorts of, Astills,strange, isn't it? The alphabet? Anyway, that was a simple rhythm there and periodically a chap from the Education Committee used to come and check this register and the classes, and some passed through the class. But that was just er ordinary the geography of this, or the history of that, many battles, Bosworth Field and I was going to ask,d d do you think looking back er th th that the school erm tt taught you to regard certain things as important in life? Was it d d d w was there was there like er erm sort of pa er erm love of country or or did they stress, say the virtues of honesty a a and fairness, can can you remember anything like that? Well I I think the period that embraced my school days, you see I didn't leave till nineteen nineteen and th that meant there'd been four years of war at school and the last year well, it ended in er nineteen eighteen, the war did, so only the last year , but it was full of patriotism and all the old scholars that had er served or suffered or been killed, their names were up. Yes, we were very, very patriotic and er I'm not ashamed of it. Er I have a love of country, I know I'm er English, I don't like to say I'm British, I live and was born in England. And when I go to Wales for a holiday and there are Welshmen, they're just as good as I am, some can sing so much nicer, and I've worked with Scotsmen in engineering factories, and there's no better engineers than Scotsmen, but they don't necessarily call them British. Everywhere I've been, He's a Scottie. Or he's a p er Irishmen can be a Paddy and so on. And so I er never went the whole hog that way with thumping the British , British and best and so on. It could be and sometimes was, but i er the standard takes a lot of keeping up and er Much of the influence comes from newspaper and superior people implanting it on the population by reiterating these standards which often are wishful and they would like it to be so, but er They were hard days, they were hungry days. I was growing, but I'm now, I never got much higher than about five foot one and I weighed eight stone for a many years. But I was a little person in er a commu community of little person and er my brothers worked down the pit and I believe it was an advantage not to be much greater than five foot in height down the pits. It was the time of wooden pit props and er much kneeling and laying down and hacking away at the coal with picks and there was no mining machinery as we know it now. Could I? Could I just move you on a little bit? Having having talked about about your schooling to er . ask you about er family life and the impression that left upon on as you were growing up? W w what can you remember of your father? W w w what job did he have? And what kind of man was he ? Yes. My father worked on the railway and in my conscious life he was a supervisor, he was called an inspector, Inspector . He had two foremans worked under him, the purpose being they did the shifts, my father did all the writing for the Great Central Railway Depot, the marshalling yard or sorting out the trains. Strange to say, these trains do not come from other towns, say Birmingham, with er a trainload of stuff for Nottingham, they come with a trainload of stuff for here there and everywhere. And the person who had sorted it together at Birmingham made sure that the next stop it was at, the waggons would be at the back end to leave in that town and this is what my father was doing by er er shunting as it was called, or making a train up to go from Nottingham to London, or some other place in the country, with up to fifty or sixty trucks behind it and they didn't want the trucks next to the engine to be dropped off at the first place and having to shove and push about in their marshalling yard. It seemed a simple system when I got to know it, but wondered what it was all about, with chaps standing in different places and shouting and bawling where they wanted this waggon that was being pushed off, as he came running without the train they diverted it into siding, you see, sorting out a train. And it's not everybody's job to do that, so ordinary people took the jobs as shunters and could be taught how to do it in short time, if they were average and er in good health. Cos it's an outdoor job, it's a three shift system for those on the bottom, er early, morning and late, cos the eight hour day had come in at this time. Which would whe around when? When are we talking about now? Say about n nineteen? In the early nineteen twenties. We'd er Twenties. Yeah. er s er but those occupations that worked shift and had to go round the clock had to have eight hour shifts, three shifts. You could have earlies, lates and nights, which many people don't know, and I worked earlies, lates and night in engineering. Earlies er when I worked at the Ford Motor Company it meant getting from Ilford to Dagenham and starting on a machine at six A M in the morning, in the middle of winter or the middle of summer. And the next fortnight I would be on the afternoon shift, which meant getting the same distance, to half past two to work till They were eight hour shifts you see and the night shift likewise had to come a very er a tremendous number from working at the Ford Motor Company at Dagenham ev even in those days, travel from various places. And it's not all honey, starting somewhere at six in the morning if you live eight or nine miles off. There were not the multitude of motorcars about in those days, as there are now, but that was one of the firms that was trying to make it,and has done it, like that. So workmen have very irksome hours of work, unsocial hours I think they call them now, one of the most unsocial is the night shift. I've never been in any factory in my life, working nights, I have been in many, but I've never found my fellow men very sociable on the night shift. Actually you go there to work, but there is er a meal break and various things, you have contact with each other, either borrowing tools or sharing the use of them, but tempers get very short in the small hours of the morning and men get pretty tired. They can be It's no comparison with day work. Okay. Just to t to come back to what prompted you to to give us that interesting er little evaluation of the the differences that night and day work have men night and days to get get back to the beginning, to get back to your father? Yes. Erm y i i is it growing up ? Yes. On the railway. Yeah. Erm Well, I find, and still find, the clerical people are remote from reality. They they would think that a man er starting at eight in the morning will do as many and as quick for ten o'clock, as a man starting at night, or at six o'clock in the morning, or the afternoon shift. But it's not so. There's different tempos and I would think er on all the shifts there is a variation of production just because of the hour of the day. It is not natural to work through the night shift, I've worked it, there is no way of starting a week without your Er I've slept a night before, somewhere at the weekend, when the day comes, but you've got to go the next night to work. Even as a young person me mother used to say You'll need some sleep, you go to bed this afternoon, which I did, in obedience. But you know sleep escapes a young person, if one's in their young twenties and they think you can go to bed at er half past two in the afternoon and have an hour or two. It's not on. Er nowadays I've no trouble in dropping asleep in the afternoon No. but in the twenties I was better at the pictures or somewhere like that, which you could get for a few pence, but you're not walking about or doing tiring thing. Could I ask you then, when when you? When when was your first job? When did you leave school? And did you know what you were going to do when you left school? Well, my mother I left school and me mother said, the Labour Exchanges had come into being, er this was nineteen nineteen, they were in existence in Nottingham. And they had addresses and I ran around, I went to get a job at the pit, which er I had no more sense so I'm glad now that I didn't get on. And I found months and months after that most of the boys that got on there had their fathers work there, who went to the office, or asked the Butties, they used to talk about Butties in the pit, and I found this was short for deputy. Not er the th The employer deputized his authority and there was deputies in the pit, but never in factories. They have foremen, under-foremen, charge hands and so on, but in the pit they deputies down there. And er You passed up the chance to go the pit then? Yes. Inside a month, I was sent to an engineering place which was er close to where I live and I started there inside about a month. Can you remember the name of it?place ? It was the John and a very big factory in it's day, in as much as it was er four storeys high, rather high in those days for heavy machinery to be on level like that. And with the war ending the the Germans had had to pay reparations and that factory and many more were extremely busy because they were making lace machines for France. France was devastated and er they had always had a lace trade but we found in after years, this is a point that shouldn't be missed, that destruction by the Germans and the replacing under reparations, I understood the money came from, anyway the firm worked day and night for years, er left Nottingham the lace centre with the old pre-war machines and France and areas, including Italy, er with the modern machines. Even in villages, I known men who've worked abroad fitting them up in in er Germany and in France and in Italy, one of whom went to night school in Germany to learn the language t to get on better, he was there to receive machines. They're very big, like printing machines are . Yeah. Yeah. So i it was a thriving and booming factory because of this supply of machines through It was a working day and night and the er just as busy as the . wartime until, oh before, say, four years. And then much of this leeway was made up and the capacity being there er, well the hours of work were getting tackled then, they'd been longer hours and er I think as a a boy coming out of apprenticeship, er the forty seven hour week had come into being. Did you take an apprenticeship then? Yes. Yeah. I was apprenticed Yeah. and er worked till I was twenty one and you usually got the sack when you were twenty one, unless they were busy, very busy, they would say, You er, you won't get the full money at twenty one because er w I can get a man of forty one for that money. Th there's a t three a two year period where you'll be an improver, where you could have an increase in pay about every six months, bringing you up gradually. But should go to another factory and er hold your own in the factory you could expect to get the full money, which I did at twenty one. I went to Newark and got a job at , a ball bearing factory, and er they paid me the handsome wage of er two pounds sixteen for forty seven hours. It came to about one and three halfpence an hour. You have to allow the coins changed now, the three halfpence is not comparable with the present pence. But it was very low. Yeah. You wouldn't ten shillings for a day. Or it would be approximately ten shillings for a day because we had to work Saturday morning, although it was at Newark and got to travel twenty Yeah. miles there and twenty miles back. We Was it apparent to you at the time that the wage was low? Well to me it was a first time and being an unmarried man that I'd earned anything like it. It was the men there who were aggrieved, who had had better wages as the war had ended and there was such a rush on, wages had gone up, but the once the boom was got over they came down. And by er nineteen twenty six the engineers suffered a calamitous drop from about er four pound odd down to this two pound sixteen. Newark, by the way, was less than Nottingham because it was a country district. Nottingham considered to be more of engineering, not quite metropolitan, but varied trades and factories Mm. Mm. Mm. Yeah. and commanded a little bit more. Yeah. Was it was it difficult then to to to to have to have got a job in Nottingham, you had to go to Newark because it was w work wasn't as ava as as er As I said the er lace trade available in ? had er B building lace machines had er had it, in the term, and they started to diversify into a variation of the hosiery, which was quite another speciality. There were other places in Nottingham that had made nothing but hosiery machines and weren't quite as good as were at making lace machines. had a good reputation, although it was a non-union firm and n much maligned by er union people who disliked stand for not er sort of recognizing. You could work there being in a trade union but didn't have to say so. Yeah. See? It was kept small. But they made machines that did lace curtains, lace er is er a variant now, and er probably a thing of the past, but there was amazing things done on a lace machine. There's some in Nottingham, in one of the mus museum, that has the Nottingham coat of arms, I think it has the council house and various things, and it's all done mechanically on a huge machine that er is a repetition in each bay It's probably thirty, forty foot long, but in each bay of about seven foot it's separate curtain. But that machine can be doing, say eight curtains, coming off a bottom roller, being woven over and onto another one, till they're taken off. Endlessly, this pattern repeated endlessly, and the man could walk along and they'd all be working, he just goes with an assistant to er repair broken threads. They get broken, or the end of the line and so on, to join up you get a little blemish there which a repairer will do. So they they're pretty accurate er machines in a a pattern way, not a I found later in engineering where they needed things to the micrometer and the very, very fine measurement, very particular to the th the tissue paper difference between er er one thing and another wasn't good enough. It had got to be as near as thi thinness of tissue paper. We have feelers, metal strips, that are one and a half thou thick, we call it, you can't have them any thinner because they can make them in Sheffield at one thou thick but they suffer and bend by use. If you try to push them under a place to see if it's touching, you'll find they get bent up and once there's a bend in you can't smooth it. So the standard feelers for an engineer goes from about one and a half thou up to fifteen thou, the rest you can measure by other things. These are feelers. Y Yeah. You mentioned er earlier the trade unions and er you mentioned the the er middle twent middle nineteen twenties as a period of industrial un un un unrest. Yeah. W When when did you first join a trade-union yourself and get involved? When I er er were in the tool room at , Newark at the age of twenty one plus, you see, not twenty two er I was approached then by a shop steward who worked on the bench, was a fitter. I was always on a machine, cutting, milling machine. And I joined the the engineer's union, one Saturday night in Newark, had to go back there and they had meetings in the townhall, a room that was hired and er was er particulars taken and I've been in ever since. I'm still in the union, from nineteen twenty six to nineteen eighty three and next Monday I shall go to the branch cos I have an interest in the organization and the movement. I can't say it's been marvellously successful but I do know for a fact that the conditions of the working class was improved tremendously by organizations in the thing which has come to be described as trade-unionism. Er, there are abuses in some and variations and er not always a desire by everyone to belong to it, but the odd man out is often like a bad apple in a barrel. And er it's strange to me how an employer would be happy to have a room with a hundred and hope to get one or two who weren't, either for reasons of information or things that one couldn't trust from a worker. They are not in company in factories, there's antagonism between management and the shop floor. There is also the difference between employees who are in offices, who for some reason or other, I've always found and still do, they seem to have a notion that they're a different class to others who work for wages. They will talk about salaries and things like that but they're often paid, well, very remotely some of them, monthly now, and think that's er heavenly or something. But mostly, in my experience, they were paid just the same as we do we were, perhaps on a different day and a different method. We had to stand in a line. I've been to Newark on a Friday night and stood in a line with others on a night shift at a w wooden hut in the yard whilst a clerk from the pay office came to meet us, the day shift finishing at er, say five o'clock. He'd come half past seven to eight to pay us as we came to work, to hand us the money we'd earnt for the last week, always keeping about three days in hand. So employers, in my experience, even to the day I left, always owe the workman something for what he's done Mm. and it would appear in the simple times, before mine, even I had experience at Newark, that men could get a sub in the week because you're actually in two days you've actually earnt two days money and you haven't got it. And if a yarn was spun, or a general true story that a man had to have his train fare to get to Newark and he had to pay this and that, you could er get a loan on your wages. But you had to have qualified for it by working, see?end of the week and the only place I ever had one was at and because the foreman approached me, I'd been out of work and got the job by writing to it, going to the library and it was in one of the London papers, they wanted men for the tool rooms. I got to be working where they made the tools in that of the engineering shop and er I travelled on a Sunday from Nottingham to London and What year would this be? Just to put it into context ? Yes . Yes. Well, I'd be er I'd got er a daughter, nineteen twenty nine, I would say, nineteen twenty eight . Twenty nine, yes. I'd er at been at Newark till then for about four years or so and the er slump had come about and they were sacked by the hundreds, including myself. I asked the under-foreman what I'd done to deserve this, he says You're not on your own, there's er a quarter to go this week and good many next, so that's what it's come to. We made ball and roller bearings for the car trade, the car trade had come a slump and the car trade to this day doesn't want one bearing or one detail for a car until it's ready to put it on a car. I found this out at Dagenham, when I worked at Fords, the supply lorries used to come through the day and through the night with articles made in other factories, including bodies and wheels and these were put on the assembly line and routed through Fords to be assembled. It's quite true that er wheels from subsidiaries in Dagenham and bodies would be on the road inside two hours of having left another factory because they were on the same industrial site. But they hadn't been made at Fords, they'd been made in a subsidiary, taken up the road on long trailers, taken off the trailer onto the assembly conveyor, which er crawls round the assembly line and fitted like that. That's the economy of the motor trade, apparently Henry Ford in America had an upset and er tried to beat the banks and er had loans and he was frightened that they would get control of his business and the we were told that at Dagenham. And it's quite true, I was there about four years and they always took stock before January the first, so that after Christmas came an anomaly, we'd had a Christmas holiday and gone back to work. In the north of England they have New Year's Day but they don't in the south in England, they might do now. And but at Fords we they we were laid off again for this other weekend till they took stock. It would appear Henry Ford had insisted on this ever since that crush, so that he could always how he stood financially. It's with not knowing how one is that one has to go to the banks and so on. Anyway that was their way of dealing with workmen there, they their word was law. So whilst it was a good paid job, for instance ri I actually wanted to that I didn't really want to go as far as for example deciding that the chair what they are voting would be within the resources available to the . The other area we that we explored in some depth was er whether the the library room could be combined to library or to library, but we've left it to them to make a decision but they appear to have so decided that there is a mixed pattern emerged. Some libraries want their own library group others are quite happy to be joined in with one or more libraries within the adjoining group and the constitution does in fact provide that investment wish what we haven't said what those who should be at maximum membership membership and to their claim will common sense not to make it too large otherwise it might turn out to be more than than sensible discussion among a reasonable amount of people but this but then to decide that equally to encourage them to ah find ways and means of the public other than library users who will be represented on the committee and to that. I vote that this a good point other activities for the County Council in a few years that you that you will find er people anxious to support, thank you gentlemen thank you is there a seconder to that I'll second that seconded by do you wish to speak now yes I would Mr. Chairman erm I concur with every word that and confirm that support er mostly er I've I've have been given notice that there is one proposed amendment which I intend to call now because then we can vote on the whole thing No actually sorry sorry I saw it yes I beg your pardon, I'm sorry I would like to speak you wish to speak sorry, right ladies and gentlemen I would like to move a very small amendment to do a the second a membership on on item four on where it says up to three represent the area etcetera erm now the which I am currently a member of includes three libraries erm which are and and there are in fact five County Councils involved in the area of those three libraries when in fact Bushey has its own Bushey and there was a but I would like to see It's a nice thing to know if you ever get tense,er decide that this is it, I'll throw things Er well I do when I want to throw things at the kitchen and go away and you use aromatherapy. And it's really nice. It's nice for both men and women. And so the men can try it just as much as the girls can as well. Cos what possibly So we should tell you is that everybody here has suffered from mental health problems. Yes. Yes. So I find So that might be might be our cure. Yeah. I do find that I have been around everywhere. I mean I used to go to Park and and all and all this. Mm. Er well before actually. So I've done er community work for a long time. So I do know the different things that do make people feel either a little bit better or might just help them. And the one thing that I over all these years I have found and I've come more and more into is aromatherapy, because it's not I'm so worried about drug-like , it's doesn't make you tired. Unless you get too relaxed and you're er tired. Erm it doesn't give you a headache it helps to maybe cure a headache, and it's just nice smelling and I think if you were just to even with your partners or with friends even just massage somebody's hands or massage somebody's feet if you don't make them scream while you're doing it. It's really nice. So er Body Shop do have a ran they've bought a new range of aromatherapy out, so I can talk about Body Shop's it's easier when I've got it with me here. So I'm going to tell you what each one does and I'm gonna pass them round. Now do any have any of you tried aromatherapy? Do you know what it is ? Mm. Have you tried it, Mm. tried aromatherapy? Aroma is the sense of smell. You all smell things don't you, I mean you know when something smells horrible and you know when something smells nice. And so our sense of smell is very strong. So it soon tells you whether you like it or not. When you breathe something it goes up into your your brain here, what they call the olfactory bulb up here, and this is right near the memory. And how many of you have smelt things and you think it turns you back either to when you were a child,maybe new bread,a certain flower, Rowntrees. Rowntrees yeah. . You see you see chocolate Ooh I haven't got a chocolate flavoured one here. Er oh yes I have,. No I haven't got the Mamatoto. Erm yes chocolate Has anyo =body else think of anything that Oh grass clippings. Grass cuttings. Grass clippings'll send your memory Mm. straight back won't it Mm. to sometimes happier times. Mm. Fresh laundry. Yes. Yes. Mm. Mm. The the the smell of the the sort of the w Clean sheets. Yes. Mm. The washing and that. Erm but it does bring you back with things. I always think of er as I say new bread always brings me back a lot of memories. So smell is very important, erm s and this is why it's called aromatherapy. It tries to make you feel better by the sense of smell. You can massage them on your hands, on your temples, or you can use it as a what they call steam inhalation. Put it in a bowl of water a few bowl of hot water, a few drops, like you do if you got a cold, and just breathe in. So these are that's how you use aromatherapy. And it help it doesn't say it'll definitely cure you of anything, but it will help maybe to alleviate some problems. You have to have an open mind I always think with these things. Right. Now you can see Body Shop's here, I've got them in a nice box now. They look better They all used to be one colour before but we've now extended the range and so they've put them in different colour bottles. Now the red range at the top here is all the oils to make you relax. And all the oils at the bottom the blue ones are to make you refreshed, happy, revived, we hope. So if you ever go in and you want to have a oil that relaxes you, you look at all the red ones. Again, you must have one that you like the smell of. Also with essential oils, they come from plants, leaves,twigs, roots, er parts of flowers and plants. If you were to use essential oil neat, that's the little drops of oil, it's too strong and it will h Well it won't harm you but it won't it might set up irritations. You must always mix it with an oil. And if you went say to 's where they sell essential oils, theirs are pure oils. You must always buy what they call a carrier oil to help mix the oils. Now ours, we've helped you by already mixing it, so ours have got three percent of essential oil to a carrier oil, which in our case happens to be grapes erm grapeseed oil, which is a very light carrier oil. So I'll start with the first one and I'll pass it round and just put either the relaxing on one hand and the reviving on the other and you'll have one hand relaxed the other one doing this . . So and see just get to like the smell. See which one you like the smell of as I pass them round. Now the first one is camomile. Have any of you ever been on a camomile lawn? Tea. Mm. Or camomile tea yes . Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Very relaxing. Well this I think's Well it smells better than camomile tea. I always think it tastes a bit weak doesn't it. This one, the camomile, is is very good for the We call it the children's one because it's good for everything for children really. If they get a bit tetchy and and they're crying a lot maybe cos they're teething you could just massage a little bit on their temples. If they're teething just on their jaw line. You never take them internally, it's always externally you use these. Or if you've got a headache you can massage it on your temples. If you suffer from eczema, psoriasis, any dry skin complaint, camomile is quite a soother for that. If you get itchy patches, do any of you ever get itchy patches? Mm. Mm. Mm. Mm. I find sometimes I get itchy Mm. patches and you don't know why, maybe you've been in the garden or something irritates you, you'll find that camomile will c soothe and calm that down. So, gonna pass it round and just If you do this . it'll drop eventually like that . If you shake it it doesn't seem to drop. But just drop a bit on, that's it, a drop . Yeah I don't want to take too much though. That's it. Right. Just massage it on your hand. I'll leave some tissues around so that if you don't like it or you want to rub it off you can always use a tissue. There. There. Your mother'll wonder where you've been Mike. Yes. Yes . Ooh yeah. . ? No. No you don't like that one? No right. No . Right. There. can smell that from here. Yeah. I think it'd give me a headache, not take it away. Right. So so you'd say to yourself, Right No. you don't like camomile, that's not gonna do you any good. The next one, which is similar to camomile and which I find a lot of people like better, is lavender. Everybody thinks of grandma with lavender. Lavender in the cupboards and lavender everywhere. Lavender again is good for headaches and it's good if you can't sleep or you suffer a bit from insomnia. No I s s I don't suffer from that. No like me the opposite direction. . Erm but if you can't sleep you could put a little bit on a hankie on your pillow or rub a little bit on your chest, and it'll help to erm make you sleep. Lavender is also one that's quite good for things like acne. If you suffer from acne at all. Cos acne can often be s triggered by stress. Erm acne is good it's also good for burns . What do you do with acne then? Do you Well you would just massage it on your face. Mhm. Over your face. You can put it with a moisturizer, Mhm. or you could just erm put on your hands and just gently go over your face. Mhm. Make sure you washed your hands first before you do it. And it's supposed to help erm calm the skin down. Cos it's often acne is caused by the overactivity of the sebaceous glands. And what it does the s erm sebum is very poisonous. If it can't get out from the surface of the skin then it goes underneath and gets these great lumps which are very poisonous. Mm. I mean often acne runs in families as well. It you know everybody Mm. can be prone to it. But you can help by sort of relaxing the pores so that the oil can come out. But it is the overactivity of the sebaceous glands that Mm. sends more oil through. So lavender can help calm it. It's also good for sunburn and if you burn yourself. If you get very sun Really? Yeah it's very calming. Apparently during the First World War some professor erm was using a bunsen burner and he burned himself quite badly and by him he just happ he just happened to have some lavender oil essential and for the nearest thing he put his hand in there and apparently it was supposed to have calmed it down and it healed very quickly. So during the First World War and in the Second for severe burn cases they use er used Lavender mm if they didn't have any drugs of any kind. Is that like a dock leaf when you ? Yes, that's the same sort of thing. The plants have Yeah. a certain chemical Yeah and if you sting yourself you go and get a dock leaf. You Dock leaf yeah. don't know why but the dock leaf takes the itching out. It's a similar sort of thing. So the lavender is good for headaches, it's good Mm. for insom Where's that one put it er somewhere else? Just put it somewhere . I'm gonna run out of space here you know . Roll your sleeve up . Roll your sleeves up yeah. That's it. . Is this still a is Yeah. this a r these are r the relaxing . ones we're on? These are all the relaxing ones now so Also if you've got them on breathe deeply. Now just breathing deeply with it will help you relax. Not with the camomile one it won't. . No. No not with the camomile one, maybe that's I'm not keen on that one. Not keen on that. not so good . You've got to like the smell, Oh yeah. otherwise it just will not do you any good . Right. Well that's better. Do you like that the lavender better ? Well yeah I I got in a lavender bush when I was small so Oh did you? you'll like the lavender one . . My brothers er I mean you know this lavender bush and Get in there. Bet you smelled lovely when you came out . compost heap. . Yeah. all right. Another one which is very relaxing, and this one you'll find much stronger that the It's a different smell. Those two that we've had are fl are flowers. The ylang-ylang is a flower, but it's a tropical flower and it's this is called can be called the Oil of Tranquillity. So this g very good for things like shock like when my husband gets a telephone bill, . to my son,You have been on the phone again. . Or if you're frightened or if you're very anxious, if you're gonna do something important and you've not done it before and you get a bit anxious, you can use the ylang-ylang which is the Oil of Tranquillity. It's very calming . Or the next committee meeting. . Yes . Yes. You'd better use that. Couldn't you leave me a drop? . Yeah so ylang-ylang is it's it's very good, it's a good sort of all-round one. Mm. But this has a much different smell to the others. Mm. Eh? . You might like that one, it's sort of more Right. erm it's not sort of flowery . Lovely. It's gorgeous. Yeah i they're not overpowering are they . No. They're delicate. Mm. No. . I found we used to have them mixed with sweet almond oil and soya oil, which I find this one brings out their aroma much more the grapeseed oil. It's supposed to be erm a lighter oil. And of course with Body Shop it's more environmentally easy to get . Yes. We always have to have things that you know are easier to do or are not s such a hassle with the environment. So did you like that one at all? Yeah. It's not bad. You're thinking about that one. . Well I think I need I think I need something a bit stronger that all these three . Oh do you. . . A mixture of all three. . . The next one we've got is rose. Oh yeah. Now rose is one of the oldest essential oils. And and rose and neroli are our sort of dearest ones now. Before when we had our other range they were all the same price, which was wrong really because it's a lot easier to get lavender than it is to get rose . . Mm. And if you went and bought the essential oil you could buy Don't you like it? lavender for about three pound a bottle whereas neroli and rose are eighty six pound a bottle. So now we've alter varied the prices. Lavender is one ninety five and rose and neroli are four ninety five so it does make a you know a difference. Now rose I don't know how many of you when you were little used to collect rose petals and put them in the jam jars did you? Yeah. Ooh yeah. Yes. And tried to get . And all you got was a rotting mess. . It is very difficult to get essential oil from the rose, it has to be done by what they call extraction. They put it on a a solvent or a fat in layers and let the oil seep through, and so it takes a lot longer and is more difficult to get. Erm the rose i has been used through the centuries. Again the Egyptians used to use rose. It's a sort of slight relaxing and an aphrodisiac and it's supposed to help your headaches. Does everybody know what an aphrodisiac is? Oh yes an aph aphrodisiac. Do you know what it is? Is it er something to make you go h high? Y yes sort of. Sor s sort of something like a It makes you go it makes you go l loose and nice and feeling good inside. That's it. Sort a er you know you you're you're happy but you're full of go at the same time . Yeah. You're not so th relaxed that you want to do this but you're relaxed and yet you're happy with life as well. Mm. So this is what rose is supposed to be. It's more Mm. of a sort of they call one of the women's essential oils er cos I suppose they think rose was a woman really don't they . So it's good again for headaches. It's good for people with dry skins. The dry mature skin as they say. Mm. Er so you can mix it with your moisturizer. All these you could use as a face cre in a face cream. So again this is good for headaches, dry, flaky skin. It's good just to make you feel good. Some people use it as a perfume. No I think I know what a rose smells like . You Yes . . He's gonna he's gonna bypass that one. Not macho No. enough. . No I just I know they ta I know what they smell like you know Yeah. . everybody's asleep in a minute, everybody's . I've got the reviving ones next, you're all right. Are you okay in the corner Karen, enjoying the smells? Nearly asleep. Haven't been so relaxed for ages have we. ? . In the with the camomile with have in our mother and baby range,Mamatoto range, and I usually go to mother and baby u clinics and m massage the babies with it . You know and they seem to love it, yeah. Oh how lovely. Yeah. And usually the one I massage at the end is way out asleep you know . Mm. I'm getting very popular at these mother and baby things. Right the last one on the rela . l the relaxing one is one called neroli, which is my favourite. . Now neroli is made from the blossom of the bitter orange tree. You get three essential oils from the orange tree. You get neroli from the blossom, er tangerine and orange which erm or mandarin,whi people might call it from the fruits, and from the leaves and the twigs and the bark you get er an oil called petitgrain. So it's very useful is the orange tree. Erm neroli is very good for sensitive skins for people who have er you know veins on the surface . Mm. Men don't usually suffer Mm. from that, it's Mm. Yes. It's sort of the ladies who get Mm. the veins on the s red cheeks Yeah. Yeah. and a red nose. It's also good for erm depressed if you're depressed, neroli is very good for depression. It's also very good again if you're going on your committee meeting or you're going for an interview to rub on what they call the solar plexus just here. Yeah? It helps to when you get you know when you get the your tummy Butterflies. butterflies, yeah . And to rub on there and it helps to calm it down. They do say that essential oils will often work quicker than a tablet. I mean I've never timed them. Cos it depends how you feel. But that's what they do say, that it it sometimes works quicker. So if you're going or When my daughter had a driving test I was massaging neroli all over her in the hope that she would calm down . Did she pass? Well only the third time. She just went haywire as soon as she saw the instructor. . It wouldn't be so bad,er she's not a nervous type normally and it's the only person that's sort of made her go completely nervous . So neroli again is good for the skin. You ma when you smell It is lovely isn't it. Yeah it is relaxing. When you smell this one Everybody's so relaxed. We are not normally like this. When you smell this one you may re there's the l the girls particularly may recognize it from face cream. A l neroli is a lot in face creams cos it is good for the skin. Go on smell that one, cos it's a nice one . . I'm going to get him to like one. . I can't smell anything now . . Do you like neroli ? I like the lavender best. Mm. It's probably a knock-on effect . Lavender must Mm. be nice sort of in the bath at night. Yes. So which one is the best sort of Lavender is. We have a a erm a bath oil here. Oh well I've got the massage one which w we might massage our hands or massage somebody's hands in a minute. This relaxing massage oil has got lavender in and ylang-ylang and frankincense and sandalwood so it's nice for men as well cos they're supposed to like frankincense and sandalwood. And this is nice if you just use a capful in a drawn bath. And so if you were to use that at night and then put a bit of lavender on it is really nice. Mm. Really relaxing. Erm the massage oil which this one, is I use a lot of this for massaging and but people find it very relaxing. Er If you have a bath in the morning what ? Well if you have a bath in the morning we have we have we have If I've got it here I haven't got one here, but we do have a refreshing shower gel. Mhm. And that's got lemon and lemon grass and er bay in that one I think. So that's you can use that in the bath as well, but they call it a shower gel because a shower oil because they think people usually have a shower in the morning and a bath at night . Mm. But if you haven't got a shower you can use it anyway. But that one is quite erm Oh I thought I had some in here. Obviously not. Oh I'm not keen on that one. Oh that do you do you remember those You don't like nero Yes it's little erm you used be able to get I don't know if you still can little wipes in little sachets and they smelled of this. Yes. Mm. Little face wipes. Refreshing wipes . We do that with the Mamatoto ones again. Mm. It's in my other box. Oh I like those. We've got . I quite like it. Mm. You enjoyed yourself in America Eh? did you? Oh I covered a nice trip, yes Oh very good saw Mary and Andrew and Yes, you did in fact the whole family was together for Mary's wedding Oh very nice , very nice, yes. It's horrible It is horrible isn't? Have you been busy? Yes Yes, oh. Jim's been for a, this afternoon at the Hart and Straw Club oh, not very well, we erm, we stopped going after Christmas because we had bad chests both of us Oh both cold and it's hard going that three hours in the morning, you know Yes but we'll go back again. Well I've had to stop my classes Yeah because I'm, I'm so busy Yes er, among other things I'm writing a commentary on Romans in Sutwana Oh very good, yes, aha, so er Jim's been very busy with his talks and different things and er we packed in, you know, after Christmas cos we both worked and we thought we'd have it, you know, and we caught this flu bug and Mm er, anyway we're alright now so, you know Good we shall go back, erm after Easter Yes hoping, permitting, you know, if it's not too expensive, it got very dear you know Yes, that is also a thing to Yeah erm, I'm, I'm feeling a bit hard up at the moment, I had a Yes a bill for repairing the car for two hundred and thirty pounds and so Oh, and everything comes at once, doesn't it? It does, yes You know , yes, that's what we find, and we've had water coming through the roof Mm when they put a new roof on I think they pinched the ledge round the chimney, er and it comes through there so we've had a lot to do Yeah inside, there's always something isn't there? Yes And you're busy at aren't you? Yes Yes Yes we'll have a meeting on Tuesday to decide whether we're going to have a or not. Yes, well, as a matter of fact er, the moderator was talking to me on the telephone Aha I think it was yesterday yeah erm, he wants to come along and see you Yeah, aha erm, I, I don't think there's any question about you getting a minister Do you think we'll get one? Oh yes Oh erm, but er, you know,wh whether it'll be a good thing to link up with somebody I don't know yet No that's one of the things he'll want to talk about Yes of course, er, you know this thing we've been talking about joining with the Yeah do you think that's going to come to anything? Well honestly I, I don't know because I haven't been in the discussions No before but, the ordinary, the congregation at St Jones hasn't Mm but erm, we've got friends in the Methodist church and they told us things that er, you know, absolutely to us, er, whoever represents us doesn't come any of the bring anything back and you don't know Mm, well the thing is there's some similar conversation going on in are there? but, er, I don't think they've got as far as yours have No, oh, I mean personally I think it would be better for the United Reformed to join up with the shared pastures instead of joining up with the Methodist because the Methodist have got plenty of churches in their area, haven't they? They have there, yes, and Yes and the trouble is of course, they've, the Methodist haven't really joined up themselves No that's true Alan, no, aha, I know, aha, and they want to pay somebody a fee to do a service, how many service have we had done? Oh We enjoyed the moderator very much when you was a Good We I liked him very much Mm and of course he'll be coming up tomorrow for Yes That's , that's at Hollywell Yes I expect somebody from St. Jones will be coached. How's Nigel these days? Well he's off sick as far as I know Mm but, I did hear something, I don't know whether it's true, that the doctors took him off the because that, he wanted to go up for a medical which was a bit erm, unethical , but I don't know whether it's true it's, you know it's just what someone said Oh it was on good authority, but you know you got, the things get exaggerated Yes I haven't seen him, I, I think they were away at the weekend aha well he's, the last time I saw him was, was being having, was trying to have a lot of fund raising things Mm and er , what's, what's the last one? Oh it was the Valentine's cover, it, it'll and we'd all made different things, you know, and there was loads of food, but his children wanted one particular thing, well they were late coming in and of course it had gone, so he, he wasn't very happy and he didn't stay long and he didn't, he, he did look terrible, he did really Oh but, er, I don't see it, that kind of a job which he's going to do, if it don't have Hello Hello, hello and, looks so ill, it's not very good for the people he's looking after is it? No, oh well let's hope he'll get better Well I hope so, yes er, but I, I, I've heard that erm shingles does have this sort of after effect Yes, aha but you know, it takes a long while to get over it Yes but I hope he will because Oh, I hope so I mean he's a young man and he's Yes done a good job I think Yes oh yes, that's right I mean he's, I think we'll miss him, but I think he's entitled to a move he's been here for a little while Oh yes it's been nine years by the time he goes Mm it, oh yes it is, I'm surprised that he stayed so long Mm but there you are, that's how it goes, anyway I hope to see you Right You'll have to come up sometime I'll try and do that I'll give you a ring, a ring for you to come up Right, thanks very much Lovely to see you Goodbye Yes, bye They want to know what spoken English is like You can tape me by all means, but they probably won't like my voice Er, now what do I want? Erm, oh half have a large one Yes I think so, or, more often by medium, I don't really know which one is best Well, er, if you poach an egg, those are too big Mm, no, let me have those then, cos I do sometimes poach an egg Yeah, well, they say that they're too large to poach them with, they come over the top, there we are, thank you. Er I want, I want to make a casserole have you got either a neck of lamb or an ox tail or something like that? I've got some ox tail, erm neck of lamb Philip have you got one? Neck of lamb's off Well I'll have an ox tail then That's one thirty for the whole one, is that too much for you? No I'll use that I think You can freeze it if you don't That's what I do if you don't want it all did I see Robert with you the other day? Was it Robert? He was, er Has he got a Volvo Robert's car? Er, well both Robert and David have got Volvos, so Oh er, if, if it was, if it was the last few days it was probably David Yes, I think it might of been Wednesday Er, yes that was David, Robert hasn't, Robert's coming next weekend, but he hasn't been here for a few weeks Yes, I just saw you at the crossroads you see Mm and I was sort of concentrating so I just that was David that was with me, er, now the next thing is I want something to cook quickly er, er let me have a pound of sausages Right, well we've got different types of so I don't know what you, whether you would like er ordinary pork mm leek, sticky thing, pork and ham, pork and tomato and herbs Goodness what a choice, if you like something they're all quite nice Yes, er oh I should think er let's try the tomato one, I haven't had, I haven't seen sausages with tomato in before Well they are , they are very nice, half a pound or just a couple? Er, half a pound will do, no give me a pound, I'll put them in the freezer and Right use them as they come er and er, one of these chicken fillets I think please Hello Hello Morning Morning Ninety four pence I think that's about all I can do so far Right, thank you three eighty five do you want them in a carrier bag? No, I'll put them in this, why use up your carrier bags, anyhow this is an easier way to carry It is five, pound coin underneath, ten, lovely Thank you very much Thank you very much Take care I'll do that Working the weekend? Well, er only in the evening, but we've got a tomorrow so I'll be out all day right, good bye You're not Welsh speaking at all, are you? No. Mm, mm, but you are Welsh? Was born in Brockly Aha I wasn't born sorry about that That's alright my father, well he does speak Welsh and my mother could understand it I see but she couldn't speak it Mm and I'd always been sorry that my dad told us, you know. I've been trying to learn it, but I haven't got very far No, I don't think I, I'm too old now I'm almost sorry that Well I was er seventy six when I started learning it Yeah , me nephew he lives up by erm Clan Derris Ah yes Mm and by he and his wife were headmaster in the village village of and their master, headmaster used to give Wallace two lessons and they had it in different houses, you know I see, yes because they get very naughty up there and they're living there and they don't speak Welsh Mm you know they, when they first went up there to live, they er, had quite a problem, and the trouble was, was, the two boys they were born in Australia you see and they came here, and one was four and the other yes of course they had a problem hadn't they? English speaking in the house and Welsh at school so it was quite, and er then they, they, well they weren't learning very well at all Oh they always seemed backward, they found that they took them to different specialist and the truth is, they've both left school now and got jobs, but they were er, dyslexia Oh goodness they found out both of them Oh but they got jobs, quite good jobs, and the fella who it is employing them, he's one himself, so he employs that sort of people you see? Mm But they get on now Good but they, they passed the driving test first time and you know er, they couldn't find out what it Mm, sorry it, he was only partly the language then? Pardon? He was only partly the language then? Yes, yeah Mm yeah, that's very, you know it'll, it quite embarrassed in school and that and erm for them Mm but er, as I say they've grown now and got these jobs and they're quite happy. Good But surprising the people that you don't realise, you know, it troubles the parents and as I say they took them to a number of specialists and given different things Mm couldn't find out Mm why , and then of course this all came out alright alright, goodbye then Do you want your paper? Oh it's not very valuable is it? Thanks Thank you, goodbye I don't think I I'm likely to say anything use, use down and taken in evidence against me It's all supposed to be anonymous anyway. Right, now, do you like er Yes, oh yes, yes Right It doesn't, it doesn't really matter, right Right, hope that'll be alright Yeah that's a nice er, slot, were you looking to go out in the garden? Yes, er, a, yes Er, help yourself Have a, take as much as you like, there's another packet there Oh right, that'll do me I think, thank you. I didn't want to put the new stuff on top of the old until er knew whether we'd finished or not, yes I think I'll have to open it Getting into those things is er a major task innit? Yes These plastic bags and various That's a nice big greenhouse you've got there. Yes, er, we put that on as a, we bought it as a do it yourself job. Oh yeah, aha how long ago, I mean how long has it been there? Erm, nearly twelve years I think now, no must, must be more than that ah, have to get a pair of scissors What brought you to this part when you, went back to Well largely because we couldn't afford a house in the area where we both grew up Where was that? The south east London Oh yeah, oh right At least I was born in Kent but er brought up in south east London Oh yeah, where the, whereabouts? Erm, born in Welling and er and then, then we moved to Lewisham Mm, mm erm, that was immediately after the war, you know, the first war Right did your erm wife come from the same area? Well, in a way, although her parents were Scotch Oh her mother's family from St Andrews and her father from Dundee Oh but they moved out of London long before Erm, oh he came to London to get work Yeah Yeah And what made you choose this particular part of Well one, one of my sons is married to er,gir , girl whose family live in Buckley Oh, oh and er originally when, when we first sought to retiring, retiring, we were attracted to the Dales, but we couldn't afford that No no this is the great problem of er at the moment, oh it was C W M when you retired wasn't it? Mm And erm and did they, had they got their nanny form of assistance? They had but it was erm, much less satisfactory as a U R C one Mm but they've changed now, they're more or less on the same basis as the U R C Oh but erm it didn't look a very attractive proposition at the time Oh for one thing, if we'd taken one of their houses and I'd died first, my wife would of been left without a home Oh dear except for going to the er, you know, they've got that place in Worthing erm Yeah erm Yeah Levers House Yeah but we were, neither of us very keen on that No not really, no Could you of chosen erm where to have the house or did they have some, that had been left for that purpose? Erm, I'm not really sure, we didn't go into it very deeply No Fortunately Ruth had some money from her father which covered buying this house Oh, oh erm At that time property was fairly cheap in Bradley Mm, mm we got this for seven and a half thousand Oh, blimey, mm I think it cost more than that now Oh I think so, yeah you wouldn't purchase the land that it stands on for that now Mind you it's only a paper profit because you can't rely on it No, no Where are you from originally ah? London, east London, East Ham actually I was brought up till I was about seven er in the same area, but erm in a place called Beckton Oh that's where the gas works used to be. That's right, yeah, just over, not far over the water from er the Woolwich That's right , no, yes, I know not far from where we live really Mm, mm and I often tell people that er, those who don't come from London don't realise the difference between north and south Mm south London they're two different worlds aren't they? In a way Yes for the people who live there they are, anyway the river's a great divide Oh yeah Yes, it's amazing how a big delight it is, despite all the bridges Oh that's right, mm You didn't go straight from college overseas Well, as near as possible because, erm, I mean I was appointed to, to Africa while I was still in college Oh, mm, mm but then there was delay because of war conditions Mm, mm so so it was nearly a year before we actually got away aha in the end I took a, a at Hayes in Kent Oh yeah erm, on the understanding that er, if a passage came up I would leave Mm well, erm, I took the chair at my first church meeting and tended my resignation Oh did you? Mm, erm The war was over by then? No Oh this was nineteen forty two Oh oh no, the war was very much on at the time Mm What vessel did you go on then? Erm a free French one called Desaraed Oh flying the flag of Lorraine Oh really? Mm Erm did you go in convoy or? Mm, we started out in convoy in Liverpool Mm, mm and we were in con convoy for about a week, then we suddenly found ourselves alone Oh and we had a whole month at sea without seeing land Oh dear you were pleased to get off weren't you? Very And where'd you land? mm, yes So where, what, what route did you take? Goodness only knows, I think Oh I think we went pretty well across the Atlantic erm Mm right quite a long way west Oh we didn't have any trouble from U-boats, but we picked up some boats Yeah from a ship that had Yeah the rules were not to do that, the ships weren't supposed to stop because apparently the submarines sometimes lurked there Oh, waiting for others, yeah but er, they did stop, not for long, erm, there's a, a er when they sited these boats they got out their cargo derricks Mm and er, let, let down, erm a hook each end of each boat Mm picked boat people and all, dumped them on the deck and went on full steam ahead was that though, that passenger vessel that had been sunk then? The one that's been sunk Mm was, was a cargo vessel Mm they got a less star crew and as well Yours was a passenger ship was it? Mm Are you your wife's with you? No Yes Have you got her passage, haven't got her at the last minute, mm well in fact we heard on Monday it was a passage and we sailed on Friday You had everything packed up already Mostly You took a good deal with you at that time I presume Yes, quite a lot, well as much as we could Yeah er, oh erm, erm we didn't have anything like furniture No but er only your personal quite a few books Oh I see excuse the wrapping but it keeps the that's alright, thank you erm Dustbin? I meant to put this one out as well You made them did you? Yes Mm So when did you first come back for leave, on leave? Erm nin , must been ninety, nineteen fifty I think, yes, we had eight years before our first yeah, yeah And you had some advantages Yes and you get acclimatized in that time Oh yeah, that's right, yeah erm, you know in the sense of regarding the country as home Yes that's right, yeah, yeah, yes that's right I mean to our children, although they've been away from Butchwana for quite a few years now it's still home It is, yeah, definitely Andrew the eldest still keeps his Butchwana passport Oh does he? Oh oh how many times have you been back since you've retired? Twice Aha, cos it's a very expensive business to It is, yes to go backwards and forwards and I'll try this I think yeah and the last time you say was in September September This September? This past September, mm Did you find much change since your last visit, previous visit? Oh quite a lot Oh economically it's changes in it. for the good or not? Well in many ways yes, they, there's powered roads, there's electricity and even water on tap, they never had oh not, not everywhere though they've got water on tap, but quite a few places Mm where were you mostly, well where was your first appointment? Erm, well first of all to Denotra which is in er, not far from the South of France erm the river is, is erm just a bed of sand most of the year Yeah it does, when it ru , when it rains it does come down Mm, mm and fast Mm Then we moved to Sawori and after that Damole up in the north west Mm and finished in when I was doing a, a late training programme Oh, mm, mm for the, for the whole country But you mostly doing district work are you? Yes, until, until I moved to Rubansi And they were in traditional mission stations were they? More or less, yes Was that doing we, we didn't have the big stations that you know, people who seemed to have in China and that and No and India it was usually just one man and his wife Right, yeah, yeah, yeah Er, are you ready for tea or? Yes please, mm, mm Sorry I'll have to put you where the teapot is That's alright, do you put milk in first or I generally do, I don't know that it matters Say how much That's alright Do I stir it first the tea? I doubt if it needs it, but er Oh Oh it's a bit weak try and stir it, see what happens Oh well, perhaps I didn't put enough tea in that'll do Oh how long were you doing the, day training? Oh for six or seven years Er was that ministers that and or only, all No la , local preachers local preachers. Where did your ministers go for training? Erm well in the early days we had to take a kiddies bible school Oh of course, yes but then later on it was to erm, set up, which started at Adams and we used the American mission near Lovedale well it was a part of Lovedale and erm, now, now it's at er, they call it The Federal Theological Cemetery Oh yeah and it's at, it's near Peter now, what's the name of the place erm? Mm ah just lost the name of the place, but it's quite near Peter that's the place that Jack was found Mm yes yes I've been consulting him a bit about my Romans project Oh yeah, so mm, no, this is very nice this er That's a recipe I got from, well Ruth got it from our daughter-in-law from America Oh It's a New England recipe Oh is it? Have you been there the New England? Mm I put that back? Yes just remember to open it again Did I sugar it? I don't think you did Was there at your next tour of service shorter Yes after that first one? the next one was six Oh then it gradually reduced to two, right at the end we were getting every two years Yes, that's right, yeah but that didn't happen very often to us because it was just being introduced That's right , yeah, yeah Yes our first tour was five, it was supposed to be four, but, we erm, er for some reason or other we didn't really want to come home, ha four, so we stretched to three well we had one more tour after that, erm, but the and would really of referred to of stayed, made the next tour longer than two Mm but er, rules are rules aren't they? It seems I, oh I seemed to feel that it, it was, if we wanted to see three it was gonna upset, well they seemed that, I thought it would save money if they Mm but we stayed home then, yeah I'm not quite sure where you did go Zambia Ah I had been into Zambia, but not very often Oh In fact when I was stationed in Mule I used to travel through Zambia to get to one of my out stations Oh did you? simply because the roads were better that side, when it was Northern Rhodesia You crossed on the pontoon did you? Yes And then came back over the bridge? O , over the falls bridge Oh we did that a few times when the, the borders were closed with came across pontoon through, of course it's a much more e , elaborate pontoon now then it was then I'm sure that was er oh it wasn't very elaborate well you could get one, one and a half ton truck on it and it was driven across with a couple of engines I can't remember of it the others with a, the engine midway I know they did put in er a, a much better ferry they Oh yeah , yeah and then of course the Americans paid for that road up to mm, that's right, yeah but er, which really was a waste of money it was, well it's used a bit for tourism now Mm, mm but it's , but commercially it was of no importance No but it was er part of the sanctions policy against Rhodesia Yeah that's right Where were you in, in Zambia? Erm, I was, we was all the time we were there, in er Ah the theological college Mm er, the only time I really went any distance was er, well, I went with er Paul to Oh yeah it was er, at a time when this an African district committee sent representatives to the central and visa versa Oh, oh Mm That must of been some time ago Yes Nineteen fifty something I think erm, of course the economic out in Zambia the economic situations is disastrous now and the drought of course has made it worse Pardon? The drought The drought yeah, yeah just now the drought seems to be much more widespread now doesn't it and er into South Africa Well I was looking at the er Very bad erm and they were saying that er, South Africa's going to have to import food this year That's right, yeah normally, South Africa feeds these other countries north, further south in, in bad years Mm, mm. Yes South Africa has erm, er, er, we have a regular erm A four sheet two, two sides of A four sheet, erm it was weekly, but it's erm a fortnightly Mm newsletter now it's just a news sheet from, of Zambia Mm er, it's pretty youthful this country with it's Zambian er, call it Zambian newspa , newspapers so it's very liable as to what, you know it's no comm , it's not comment at all, it's just, and erm the last one two weeks ago I think it was, indicated that erm South Africa's production of maize would be, oh I can't remember, but a lot short of what they require themselves Yeah, oh, it's down to about a quarter of normal it is A quarter is it? As low as that. Because there are worries that it's going to er, effect the outcome of this mad ref , referendum, you know they the farmers are sort of desperate and they think they need government help and they think they wouldn't get it because of the black government so But erm, Botswana's erm, doing quite well Oh yes, well you see they've got the names Yes that's right, but erm, unfortunately Zambia's the copper, has had the copper and Mm the copper erm and of course, er, normal years they also earn quite a lot from exporting their cat If any of you want a copy of the document on Alders referred to in the Ecumenical report I have some here you can study it over lunch. Before we go on to keep the, to to look at the minutes and for the young people who were actually on the weekend in . Sharing everything on a different . And what I've asked is that they actually did and not separate it. The suggestion had been that in the galleries So as they come in would you make a statement and then two minutes they had and that one's just next year. It makes a lot of difference cos if you've been in a church hall before! Although, you don't . Just this table. Perhaps that's why we haven't got a group for the next one. Quite warm again. Yeah. They're doing it by the . Oh! What we booked the church? Do you want to see him? We got books here that the trouble! Oh yes. Things like bibles. Yeah,they quite like. That there like that. No that'll be better. Got my thick old coat, I wished I hadn't put it on now! haven't got the I thought it would be here! Well yes You know. you never these da I don't even think you know us. I know your husband, but I don't think I've known before. I don't know Oh yes you have met me before! Oh ha, have I? We met at the don't you remember? Oh yes, I'd forgotten that bit. When you told us about Naniel and a , you know? The Yeah. name of the shop. yes Oh yes. it was ! May I and I hope that the young people will join us, they'll feel welcome to join in any conversation during this session of of, you know? And just one other plan we'd welcome is the young people in the come in. I think he would welcome you as well. Stand up. I can't remember your surname, I've gotta be honest. You really wanna know? Sorry? , right! Very Dutch! Mr Bob is the Minister of in the United States of America. But at the moment serving with the group of churches in Ealy, Bathyclyn and also with erm part time working in Ealy as the youth worker for the community working partly for Dr Barnados partly for the ULT and Methodist and he'll acting in it as well in Ealy and sponsored by the Global of the United States. The , obviously. We welcome you. . The minutes of the last thing on the , and everybody should see who elected president, although some people will have forgotten, but I haven't. And before any I ask you whether there are two additions to these minutes. Right, the first addition is on the last page under the erm the Royal Hall of Ministers and Elders to er remember their . Erm printed in the official copy for this but left off this copy were the names, also the Reverend of Glangothwyn and the Reverend Victor of Hamwell Erm does anybody else wish to make any comments on the minutes of . Knowing Martin what John has just told me about him if I didn't know him I don't think it would me anything! Brief details like that are meaningless! I trust the Ministerial Committee to make decisions and bring recommendations. On the other hand, I would like to meet the candidates to see what they look like. But that doesn't apa , but what they look like is not going to affect whether I support the Ministerial Committee or not. What actual details do we give to you? Despite what David said, that Yeah. rather hurt! Putting it in therefore, we did read the description. Yes, oh oh. Actually, I think David is right. I , it didn't come over, but for me when we interviewed Martin is one of most refreshing interviews I've had the pleasure of taking part in! He's a man of rare who was so privileged to go to Cambridge and to be interviewed. And came back having learnt a new verse which was probably written about twenty or thirty years ago but recognised that his own congregations would be very suspicious of them! And it delights from this thank you John. Okay number two would you please affirm the call of Ian for in the psychiatric unit. No. Would you of . our counselling . I've been involved in interview with . Don't you like my ? Right. Yes, he's about five foot eleven! erm he is a member of Vanroch Caerphilly at URC and has done I think he is currently at and erm have felt a gentle call emerging over the last few years and erm all started in Cambridge, that's about it, that's all I can say. Oxford. Oxford, sorry! Had too much . All in favour of er Ian's call being affirmed please. Thank you. And thirdly, we ask you to affirm the call of Peter for praying for in the ministry. Peter is a member of right, he's actually a member of Clygarthy URC but he works and has erm as a form of day pastor and . Member of Clan othel URC and has worked and served as a form of day pastor at Clygarthy URC and he has come from the Anglican tradition Church of England and he has erm over the years towards the reform tradition. He seeks to work as a ministry within the Vale and brings tremendous in erm to the ministry which he he will hopefully let the side . He is also a self-employed . I thought he'd be touting for business! We are not at the time of business, we are here to affirm the call! All in favour please show. Thank you. As we come to end of of that part we have erm Burmingford Hall of Ministry two, three people and we have also as part of the report recognised the timing of Roy , where's Roy? Roy, who is sitting over there. Lastly,recognise this man is Bob, who's sitting over there. Erm those two people, along with Bryn erm were also in, in college together. So they started their ministry off together, and I think it's something quite special to me and to recognise that we have sent three people off on a journey and three people, two here, have come to the end of a journey and just part of the journey and are beginning to discover that will be discovered in the life of the three human beings, human beings at the time. Shall we remember and these three friends in life. Lord we thank you for the ways in which you challenge and call people to all forms of ministry within the light of your church. And especially we thank you today for the call of Martin and Ian and Richard to the Ministry of Word and Sacrament within the light of your church. We pray for them and their families. We pray for them in their studies. In their pilgrimage to discover more of your presence in their lives. As they begin a particular stage of the ministry we also pray for those who are coming towards the end of that particular stage of the ministry. Remember especially Bob and Roy and we pray that you will enable them to find fulfilment and enjoyment, and enrichment in their lives as they step forward in faith and confidence in Lord in your mercy Amen. Amen. Reports are not always about revolutions and that's important! And you will see that we now have a good erm . Well, over to Noel to relax with each other thoughts, questions, comments about the life of the ministry of the church. And happens some people have prepared particular presentations, you will see after one is on , and one of political insubordination, one on the process of learning together. Five districts have erm prepared some of vision in order to share that vision or that example of what is happening in the districts, relating to the ministry erm with the and those who have come to us as well. And one church has prepared a little presentation or mind-stretching, heart-stretching thought of church and community. So we're, we're here now to relax. To talk about the Ministry of Office. I think, in starting this off, I would like to encourage as many people to take place in conversation, if possible. And I will include in that those who are younger than most of us here. Er, to talk about what you think about the ministry of the church as well. We're talking about this partly because of the document passed in the ministry in which, everybody has avidly read and erm has been talked about after the seventeenth er, in York in July. But I think the more important reason for talking about the Ministry of the New Church, or the Ministry of the Church is because of the erm developing needs and the developing thoughts and ideas which are actually additions which are the, the crucial area where ministry takes place. First of all, I think it would be useful if we were clear that with the new , ministry was a waste! Too often, we are limited in thinking of ministry as those who either do or do not work where are thought of. And, we might call those Ministers, if you like, with a big M. Erm but we'll be talking about the Ministry of the Church. We're actually talking about, I mean, if you remember this , we're talking about the absinity of the body of Christ. That is the Ministry of the Church. But each one that's here however old or however young are a part an active part an essential part a crucial part of the Ministry of the Body of Christ. We are these. And how we relate within the church and how we relate outside the church although, in essence, there is nothing outside the church there is nothing that that position . Okay? As you look into your shaving mirror in the morning, you shall say, hello Minister, how are you? Or as you look into your drawer in the morning, to find out what you need to put into your hand bag in the day, you say hello Minister, how are you? Okay? That's . We're also talking in terms of a ministry which what you expect is very often what you get you're trained to be somebody , okay?. And one of the things that these trainings help you is that if you expect something of a child then you're much more likely to get it! That way it's positive. If you expect that child is going to do a fantastic job on that painting then that encouragement and confidence is coming across. It also works negatively! If you don't expect much from little Tommy then, little Tommy is less and less likely to give you anything much! So we're talking about ministry. We're talking about something which is bound by our expectations. We need to be aware of our expectations because our expectations can be limiting and can be stretching and inspiring. We also are exercising the Ministry of the Church within a context. We've learnt something about the church and . One of the contexts in which we are exercising ministry is that we have for the last fifty years well I haven't personally! But for the last fifty years or so for most of us the experience of the church has been declined and closer and reducing number of people with dog collars. Okay? There have been negative interference. We need to be aware of how those can actually triple the numbers. We need to be aware of how we are subconsciously taught. A Geographer knows that and the whole environment importance. A Geographer also knows that in order to use maps you need to know where you are. You can't get anywhere without knowing where we are. Half of our exercise in listening to each other is to know where we are. In order that we can begin to recognise the movements and the visions and the views of where we can be. Knowing where we are in terms of the way in which we are tricked into having bad . Knowing where we are in the way in which we are tricked into believing that erm our churches now are weaker than when they were founded and probably most of you, many of you have heard my children's prayer. the children are the difference between churches now and churches in the past. Especially at church anniversaries. .And nine times out of ten when I ask the congregation whether your church is bigger now than it was when it was founded nine times out of ten the congregation say, it is smaller now than when it was founded. And nine point nine times out of ten they are wrong! We've got a wrong false image of the . And that is harmful! And it's parallel. Those visions come from within ourselves. Come from the way in which we don't necessarily take on board what we are learning. They come also from orgasmic enters or whatever such programmes there are go around these days,! Carole, you tell the people sitting next to you what orgasmic is. What did he say? I don't know ! Is it Derek Nimmo? In the nineteen fifties. I never Erm I never watched it, in fact. There's also the whole of notion of what we are saying by our ministry together. Okay? What we are, what we are saying by our buildings. sort of ended in a little What we are saying by our notice boards. Many of which are still in action. What we are saying by our commitment or our attitude. What we are saying by the way in which we share what we are saying by our commitment to justice and peace. All of these are involved and a part of our ministry. And, that again, might be me but many of you when you've heard me say it in a service I've ended up with my asking at the end of a sermon asking the congregation to smile. Now, you know that's how many of you I, have I done that to? Well that, that may be a reflection on me, okay? But what are we saying by our expressions both within worship and outside? And of course, our discussion of ministry i.e. the activity of the people of God is not just a domestic thing about the URC. I mean, we we get bound up with with all sorts of domestic things, and will, I expect, later today. But it's also erm about discovering the completeness of the ministry of the people of God as we enter through the various commitments that we have to our sister churches in Wales and in Britain and in the world, whether it's routine or a particular relationship of members or All that's part of the context of the ways in which we're talking about and sharing with each other with God. Please smile? There is a list here three major's presentations on communion on political insubordination and on the pilgrimage of learning together. I think what we'll do is hear each of those three presentations and then I will allow a time for comment, especially discussion after each I will limit that to make sure we get time for all so that's that's the way we're going to do it. Thank you. But first of all in terms of a precedency attitude I hope I'm looking in the right place? Nannette erm is going to lead us in our . Nannette would you like everybody where you are and who you are? Nannette the Minister of the United Reform Church in Merthyr also sharing the ministry with the Presbyterian Church of Wales in Merthyr and Merthyr Vale. Thank you John for that introduction. I remember John coming to Merthyr and asking the young people to find, see if there was anybody who was over a hundred in the congregation! And the dazzling thing was that quite a few made a beeline for a lady who co , could at least give thirty years! I thought haven't noticed from where I'm standing! In preparing ours for today and the whole question of thinking of being, main precedency of communion rests in our understanding erm, of ordination, which I know later we we will have time to discuss. But, may I ask yo , of you a question not for answers but will erm perhaps come later in the debate and that is what does the service of Holy Communion mean to you? Our answers will get crushed. But one thing that I would share with you and it's this, is that whenever the friends of Jesus eat and drink together they remember him his sacrificial love for them and the wonderful gift of freedom that he has made possible. I'll say at the outset, that Holy Communion is not something that we play about with. Our communion service is part of the rich tradition which has been passed down to us from Jesus Christ. But having sa said that I have to share with you the a key element er, in the life of the church has been the ordained Ministry of Word and Sacrament and pastoral care. And there is no intention to dispense with this kind of service. But concern is expressed in the number of jobs that the perfect minister is expected to do. I stand here, I am not a perfect minister because I am over forty I've got children that are not too awkward but erm, could be awkward and, I haven't a spouse ah and ah I stand here saying that I'm not good at everything I'm good with young people, I'm not o only good with old people I try to do my best. We know the picture of a perfect minister but we there is a challenge to relief ministers to do the work that they are called to do. This will lead to a long deba debate. But, it is it seems from this report that is in front of us that it is now appropriate for the URC to take a new step with regard to the local ministry of elders. Already this morning the question has been asked about providing elders. And it is that each local church, of whatever sign should be invited to nominate from amongst their elder division those elders who district council might consider and recognise as dividing elders for a stated period of years with authority to do , provide them all services of worship and meetings of that local church, as the need arises. And this has been suggested, the same thing, the understanding that we have now of special authorization which obviously doesn't work. The reasons for looking at this change and, I quote the reports the the ways the district council interpret the existing clause about provi ,precedency is the district council ah, interpret in very different ways. A second thing is that a co , is it right that a company of people should be deprived of a sacrament because an ordained minister is not available? Remembering the words of Jesus, that where two or three are gathered together. The third thing that the re , the report says is that there is no magical element about sacraments. But sacrament has everything to do with the grace of God and the faith of the church. And this proposal is seen, lastly, as developing local leadership. The proposal is that presiding elders and whether proposal is the right word, but the suggestion that presiding elders be appointed following our conviction that every local church should have regular sacramental worship with presiding with people presiding being allowed. Can I close by saying that every time Christians share the Lord's supper they are publicly declaring their needs to be fed with the living bread and wine. What does the holy communion, what the Lord's supper mean to you? and our visitors from other churches are also welcome to join in in any discussion or comments. And any more, for those who feel like it, there's provision for Sorry? Anyone who's visiting from other churches. And we lack provisions that allows for a presidency in the absence of a minister is a good one as long as it is monitored closely by district council. And be that there no magical erm like you, which I agree there is a mystical. Like it isn't you know that the Eucharist, er the the the communion is very central to our worship and having had ten years working at the Navy that was an eye opener and deepening of my own spiritual awareness in the, as in the sanctity that I got, the sacrament and how other churches see it and er helped to create a very affirm, at the very centre of my own if you like, pilgrimage. What had abhorred me in the past and sometimes, er, perhaps arrive and been to the church and say, oh by the way it's communion! And have that sprung on me I I I, I I feel terrible because the communion service i is, is something I have to prepare for in myself and obviously shape the whole se se service around it. And I think we need to heighten, sharpen our awareness of erm what I understand by communion and er er, also to er, to remember that the injunction of Paul as he was you know that I have received of the Lord at which I deliver unto you. Those words of execution as we continue to read them. There's a severe warning against those who can't do it in a spirit of of of,lardiness and, and not discerning to the body and and, and the will of Christ. Perhaps that needs to be reminded about them. But they sho er er er, it's good to have and sharing it but I but I, but I, I personally feel as long as it's well monitored within the within the district council in the event of a minister not being able to be there then er a reco , er som , a recognised person to . Right when we Who, who are you? Oh you ask difficult questions, that's all you can get! No giants in Ardmore Vale! No giants in Ardmore Vale You'd make do that! See Is it me? . Ah? I've forgotten what I was gonna say! Yep. Erm oh yes my next question was er, what is holy communion? I'd like to re-phrase the question what is holy in communion? Okay well I mean do we say, what is holy in communion we then recognise that it's not what but who who is holy in communion okay? The holy, as in communion to me is a who not a what! Okay? And I think that debate er between the, the tradition and, and the the and and er, Roman Catholic traditions, you know i er, this business of elevating the host and and substantiation so the elements themselves that, that it become holy alright? And then it's a kind of a what, you know? It's the body of a what, and the blood as a what! Have you read ? But that's not it! And that's not what Paul meant when he said the body of a what! He meant who? That is holy. And who is holy? Jesus Christ. Alright? You wanted it, and that's it! When two or three are doubted they're wrong! So, what's the who? That's the holy to me. And the other who of holy is the Saint. I'm making this point because I think that we can get really to verify You're always going on about You know this whole of idea of things and ritual being the holy and that things in the ritual there yes, there are sacred symbols and they need to be handled in that, that, that sense of sacredness, but the that which makes them sacred is the person, our Lord and us in communion with him and with each other and it seems to me that wherever that happens there is sacrament. Wherever that happens there is holy communion. Even if the elements aren't even present. Okay? But I think I think those elements are important otherwise Jesus wouldn't have made a point of it! David East Wales. Can I clarify please what exactly we are talking about here? Because the do document, Patterns of Ministry does not talk about lay presidency! It talks about the presidency of ordained people! Elders who are ordained! Now, I rather wish it was talking about lay presidency and I would go along with Nannette on the question of a lay person presiding in communion. Ecumenical dynamite, I know! But I think we need to be clear whether we are talking about ordained or lay people and further on in the discussion whether we can indeed justify that division. How can try and allow an elder as an ordained minister of the free people . Can I say that need holy communion as a group thing in a way of our communion and as a church we are going to be Roman Catholic. It is the community as a an affirmation of the community and to say that we need to have an outsider in to do that because there is not an ordained minister there to me, is a little like the situation in some Anglican Parishes where there's a woman sitting We will move on . I'm allowed to say something pilgrimage of love and the parish knows that too because something that er it's . So the three words that's come to my mind immediately are go and do! And you will recognise them as the words of Jesus. They are direct they're clear they're simple and most importantly they are words of one syllable. But they still have a conscience and they challenge that they . Now the the annual assembly has challenged us to engage in what is called integrated trading. Personally, I prefer to speak about learning together because I think it's more friendly use, er, user friendly I think I understand it better and it reminds me that it's connected with disciple-ship. Because I'm quite sure that the young people this morning everyone would know that the word disciple means Follower isn't it? Well you're all shy aren't you? yes? Means a learner. Now the word disciple means learner. So that we're all involved disciple-ship is integrally, er, learning is integral to our disciple-ship. And we are involved not just, spasmodically or occasionally but continuously. And learning together as we've been reminded more than once than this morning engages us all irrespective of age, irrespective of experience it engages everyone and it's worth emphasising that the quality of learning does not depend upon the size of a congregation! And I say that in a right of some statistics that appear in today's agenda. The quality of learning depends upon the measure of our response and of our commitments. It involves sharing our gifts with each other freely and generously. It means erm learning with each other and learning from each other because none of us knows it all! And I think, also, it means being open open to one another and open with one another. And when you put all that together I think we would recognise that there is no single of learning that suits every congregation because congregations differ, one from the other. And we remind ourselves that the spirit is also infinitely versatile and flexible in its activity. But when we consider learning together are a model. To use an educational term it's an active model it's an active model of, model of partnership and of sharing. Patterns of Ministry to my mind can be interpreted as patterns of sharing and partnership is active and not fussy. Partnership is creative and not rigid. Partnership is dynamic and not . And then learning together is a model of dynamic encounter or dialogue, one with the other. And by that, I mean that we engage one another in a process. We cannot all, as it already been emphasised by the last speaker we may not all be able to do the same things we have not all got the same gifts or the same responsibilities er within the church but you all have the same responsibilities in this light of God. And that implies that our learning together engages us in dynamic encounter dynamic dialogue which also releases some of those energies in various areas of life that would otherwise be sealed or indeed, locked! And I were to guess that learning together is also a model of rich and diverse possibilities. There is no one who can foresee what are the ultimate results. Or what is the ultimate outcome of any learning process? There is no blueprint that one could lay down but with a on the infinite versatility of God to use and deploy the gifts that we are able to offer to his service. The Holy Spirit is also flexible and progressive in operation. And therefore, in learning together there are rich and diverse possibilities. And I would suggest through us learning together is a model of effective evangelism. For evangelism at best is a congregation learning together. Learning together for the word. Learning together for the sacrament. Learning together through prayer and worship and all the activities of the church. Learning together by entering, entering into the experience of one or the other and also engaging the community around the church, not superficially but er realistically. And it would seem to me that unless this morning's exercise which has been so rewarding and so profitable unless this morning's exercise is to dissipate into another piece of feeling and er pleasurable discussion then we ought to take quite seriously the, the words of Jesus. Go and do! And see whether we can no , we could put this matter of learning together that every member of of our church high on the agenda. Well, at the next er elders meeting the next church meeting the next district council or whatever. We'll move on. And read the please six and visions from Viscuss The first one is going to be given a bit more time and then the other five are going to brief. And we'll ask Christian, who's erm an elder Yes, right. In Garmonchaty to share an experience of their church in terms of using ministry. A ministry that we don't often think of as a ministry. Correct sir? . Er, in the introductions I didn't stand up and er, introduce myself cos I felt it would steal a few minutes of my er presentation! This is re , it is my first visit to a . My name's Chris , I'm from the river town URC in just down the road. What we've been embarking on in the er the URC church in Shodden is er budgeting the title of my talk today is budgeting for growth. We hear about budgets in all walks of life, indeed we saw a red box only a few days ago. I'm afraid I've only got a little red one! This will happen next week. So we've had the most famous budget of all. I suppose you could argue that his budget was er, a budget for growth but my discussion this morning is apolitical. But I'll make not comment on his budget at all. The basic principle of a budget is straightforward it's to forecast your forecast your expend expenses so they can make plans for the future. Big and lit , little businesses alike budget for growth. It enables them to make most, most cost-effective use of their resources. So why shouldn't a church do the same? On this approach, following a presentation and a discussion led by the Reverend Bill about eighteen months ago. And I've written this paper, not to give information and details on, how you do budget. There are plenty of papers and books and guidance from the URC to help you do that. What I'd like to share with you this morning is how we as a church took that challenge and the experiences we feel we've received from taking that challenge. We have begun to feel the benefit. Well how was it at er Shodden Well, like any other church we thought we were doing well. We were just getting enough money in to do just enough in the church. The church was helping the spirit. Helping in kind. Helping the fellowship. What more as a church could we ask for? Well maybe they can like any other church was the an , or is, the Annual Church ge the Annual General Meeting and as John pointed out this morning of course, we look at what we've done in the past. The finances the well being of our own flock what we have done. But, look at the tense, it's what have done . It's a retrospective view. That is important, we learn from experiences. But it's what we've done in the past. What about the future? How many of us actually, in our church meeting, look forward to what we want to do? Where's the direction of your church? Where's the direction of your fellowship that they can follow? Are there any problems that may be looming on the horizon that perhaps you ought to be addressing before they reach the door? We need to grow together and enjoy the experience together. So what changed us? Well, the presentation by Bill helped in supporting provided was the . We've heard it all before! But not, at any time, in the context of the church. A number of us went to that presentation the minister, the church secretary, myself, and the treasurer at the time and a few of the elders. We listened and learned that if the church is to grow it must consider all its resources! Reference to that again this morning. We must tap that wealth with talent. I suppose really we learn by who sent us that evening. A sense of purpose a sense of involvement a sense of direction a sense of satisfaction and a sense of achievement. We're beginning to experience all those. And I suppose we also experience a sixth sense. A sense of humour we've heard that again this morning. And Bill, in there, used sense of humour to get some of his points over. But we've got all of those. talk from any of you. If you look closely at that to what depth to what depth do those senses reach in your church? Our church has money to spend on on anything!, fabric, fellowship worship, mission the list is endless! What a delightfulness to choose from! But what priority do you sign to it? Which one do you choose? How much on each of those? One of the problems you may be facing in your church is inertia the feeling that we're doing fine everything's ticking over. But remember, the same effort reaps the same reward. So we returned from that evening together and were very enthusiastic about what we heard. The seed was sown in good soil. The treasurer indeed, faces the same old task every year to ask church members to give a little bit more to pay the bills. What a depressing thing to ask for! Just to keep up with inflation! Just to keep the wolf from the door. Wouldn't you generate a more positive attitude if you were aligned your increase or the request for an increase through the a an increase in activity in the church itself? That, is true growth! So what did we do? Well, first of all we told the people at the earliest opportunity we told the church members what we've learnt told them about our of the advantages and our enthusiasm and commitment to the process. We tried the process. We selected a single project to just learn how to do it just go through the process simply. It took about nine months of planning from start to finish on the one project we did. We had a programme on four consecutive Saturdays, last October help reach the . At, not a significant cost. It's a significant step for our fellowship. And the benefit is, we want to do it again this year, that's great! Plus, taking , keeping it and doing it if you see benefit in that. So that was a benefit to people outside and people inside the church. We have learnt at getting a number of people into our congregation. So that was our first success when we decided that process. Forward planning and setting objectives were a good way to focus attention. So, we set objectives and sub , subsequently planned a budget to ensure that it's successful. So what's the timetable? Well I'll take you back six months. The elders were advised in advance that we were going to discuss the future,. This enabled the eldership to start thinking about what we want to do next year to grow together. So, in the next elders meeting we used a management technique, brainstormers think the say what you think. And we gathered all this information we grouped it into those categories, admission, worship,and such like. Then later, couple of months later when we found that list checked that we understood what the list meant and we presented that list to our church meeting. This will ensure that there's commitment and that the direction is understood for the next year. So, in that presentation discussions followed and that list of nine things, I think it was, surprise surprise the church wanted to do all nine! Now there's a challenge! So what we did then, is we went to do, to do fact-finding, costs, people resources, effort and any options that might be open to us. And the culmination of the production of some financial information that simply enables you to ensure that you can meet those goals in that coming year if you choose to do so. So at the Annual, Annual General Meeting it was conducted i , very much in the same way as before presenting the previous year's activities but this time, we presented a budget! Very similar to the example that Bill provided in his hand outs. We listed a our expenditure his forecast we used the forecast based on experience and inflation. Some of them are at best guesses! But then you foil a new project to your expenditure and say look if you want to do these as indeed, you've expressed then it's going to cost you so much. If you get that agreement there one hopes you get that commitment. On a technicality the bu , the treasurer can still control it. He can measure every clause of what the income is , against what the expenditure is so that we have some control to ensure that the church life grows and we don't stumble. So, we have true growth. What are, finally, what are the benefits that we've seen here? Well if there's a commercial activity you could argue that but i , in the chu , context of the church what have we achieved? We have focus we have a direction we maintain the fiscal control we are aware of what we're doing as a church we have the the members commitment indeed, we have their involvement in what we want to do. It is future planning it is growth it is commended to you all. And I'd like to leave you with one last statement just enough, but just enough, is not enough! Thank you. We're going to now from first of all I'll say it in order and then you can come up . Jean from South Wales, come on Jean! Then Russell from East Wales then Henry for North Wales then from West Wales and Becky from Mid-Wales. Can you remember your names? Your,yo Okay? Right! It's going to be Jean, you've got the floor for ten minutes! Oh! Jean . Er, I'm Jean from Merthyr Tydfil and I'm the secretary on the committee. Within the South Wales district the question education can always, as well as trying to help and support carry pe I've worked in junior churches and many more education churches. It's very much concerned with the training and Ministry of Elders and a few weeks ago a part of our programme we held a very successful and lively meeting on the subject of church membership. It was initiated by one of our ministers erm, who felt it would be useful for churches to share er, their procedures for preparation for church membership. As he said, I know what I do with my congregation but how do others er, approach the subject? Under the leadership of the Reverend Kenneth this meeting developed into a much wider consideration of the leaning and significance of church membership. Does it begin with infant baptism? Are all children and me , and adults who have been baptised members of the church?is not or you'll be actually encouraged or pressured to misinterpret the membership or should we wait for them to be informed er er, to wait for them to, to feel the ? One or two elders confessed that they have not been baptised! And others were not sure whether they had! So what about them? We realise that this is a subject which warrants much consideration, as we think about the life and reverence of our churches and look to the future for . And we hope that our district will continue to be, be aware of ways in, in which we may help elders and churches in their ministry. Thank you. Russell? Russell , East Wales district. Erm I'd like to tell you a story about a vision of Ministry in East Wales. When I'm about to tell you a story, I thought to myself well stories that Jesus used to tell were parables and when I looked at them in the bible they had a kingdom meaning to them. And I thought to myself yes, I'll tell you a story! I'll tell you a story about a place I went Now so much more time has been released for us to be the church but at the same time we have nowhere to hide and nothing to blame! It has meant, that churches need to be bold and be young or a threat to what we belong to as the edges between church and and community have blurred we are now much more vulnerable. Somebody said, like a tortoise without a shell. And we need a greater trust in God. It has also meant a greater love for one another as we can share our faith and come face to face with who we are. I'm glad that Pat used the word exciting but all the story you've heard this morning are exciting! But, it does Pat, doesn't it also danger! It also means fear, it also means pain. I don't know no any more what church is I don't know any more and I'm supposed to come this morning and help to discover what unity is! It blurred so much and in the blurring we have discovered our own vulnerabilities. And having raised our banners of church proudly a change is all what changes should have been! I see now narrow mindedness I see the deathedness I see suspicion of other communities I see jealousies. However, I am discovering that the church probably not the community but more a communion and that's perhaps an answer to what Nanette ? Or within the communion of our Lord Jesus Christ in word and sacrament and that living out of his love is his body and finding community. Communion actually the Holy Communion has become so much more important to us and so much more exciting to us because we're not just celebrating the living Christ we're also celebrating the crucified Christ and we're simply meeting our pain and our joys together in communion with him. I once watched a film on the telly it was a pretty crap film really! It was American no, sorry it's not! See yes the thing about community . It was a simple story, and I would of forgotten it er, about a woman struggling to bring up a family in a depression. The story was that her husband in the deep south was killed by some young hoodlums who were black. She was left to bring up a family she had to go the banks for money the banks were all and they refused her money to keep the farm going. She took on a black lad and because she did that she was ostracised from the rest of the community. He eventually was driven off the farm but the respectable white people who went to church. The story, of course, was a happy ending, that she struggled on and she did it. But for some strange reason, and I don't know whether they direct it to Christian the last shot of the film, almost unnoticeable because the credits were going up she went back into church and it was a communion service and all you saw was her receiving the bread and passing the plate and the plate was to the young black lad on the farm and you thought, he's come back! But then, no he passed the plate then to the woman's husband who had been killed! And then the plate was passed from him to his murderer and it was passed round until it was passed to the bank manager who wouldn't give her the money and then back to her. And somehow, but I can't explain it in that moment that what community's about it's about the not yet as well your . About the journey being on and the reconciliation o , of them . And that's where we are and this morning. Thank you. We thank you to everybody who's contributed to to our speaking this morning . There's a lot for you to talk about over lunch. And on the journeys home. .Just a reminder that erm, expenses and apologies should be given to Suzanne or Eileen. Erm if any have been those elders or ministers will advise us the days they are going to come, those ministers who are and seen, if we do so that we can remember whom our chosen . Downstairs there is a bookstall and there's a , today upstairs . Bon appetit! Oh dear my batteries are going flat! Oh no it's alright! Erm So what, are you trying it out for somebody are you? No, er We to , were you recording ? I've been doing, doing so. You have? Now, you won't about the Wrexham . Er, yes. Did you have, did you read those words? Er yes, I just glanced through it. Oh! Well actually there's no decision yet from the church meeting Yeah. so we've still got to . Yes, but they could And they could sell it. I mean, my favourite but . Mm. And it was a major problem of finance it seems to me when you've two possible avenues left to take. When you I think it's yes. One is getting a loan from the church Mm. and repaying it at five percent interest or whatever is a rate of Yes. fare. And there's no guarantee they'll they'll lend it. If they ask for money. The other is to apply to come back that I the interest that I . I was told that o , over a year ago but I haven't found any yet! I see! I've got a lot of information about tru charitable trusts but all ! I can't see that any one of them which is you know, would have that as one of the things. I see. Now I haven't finished, but I mean I, it really is at the top of my mind,yo , you know it hasn't I haven't given it top priority. Well you've got a lot of other things to think about I'd say. Well all the other things have been more urgent, so therefore, I haven't really pursued it to its limits. Mm. So, you know if if you find there's a position for when they absolutely need help you know, phone me again or write to me again and tell me you've you've, you've set everything . Well keep in touch. But, well I mean I it's a so far, I really don't push. I see. I've got the names of lots of Mm. I'll try to get started. But, you know if you need some I can't any of them a , as being willing to . Mm mm. In the pipeline. But there may something at the there might Oh there mi there might be! I think might be because it's a the four churches toge together. That's right,. If it need it to share the cost of the new one but once it goes on the Sa four churches Yes. and not on the one. and er, also therefore you'll have the , if you like Yeah. or . I wish some other churches would come and . Well we'll be stuck into finding a finance man er, to watch the cost over the . You need ? Yeah, I mean . You've gotta look at the same as . Have you got Erm in the personals to me . and the personal situation now is that economic climate get a house how many are talking here! sometimes from a . Like, you'd better can I get rid of these? Please! Would you be able stay with the one you've got? Well the one we've got above our in fact, there's one next door to us going for sale at the moment and they're asking advertised prices else you'll be getting about fifty thousand on top that's ours. It was a short she wants fifty thousand pound for ! And because that one even if we didn't rule out it says fifteen forty. Mm. And it seems for the churches we'd then be looking up to point forty perc , fourteen percent for fifty thousand pounds. A , actually John was suggesting that we might talk nicely to John's dad about the money they've got invested in the sale of their pro , their ground. I don't know how far we'd get but er it's worth looking at. The only thing is though, I mean, you see but I think the church itself and I would say the church as the group now Mm. would be looking at that as a more meaningful contribution to . Mm. Well what else can you talk ? So to be able to the sweepstake in the past another church and they could be, they could be on the interest you know, the amount towards running costs such as this. Well, to me running costs wouldn't be and the cost of towards borrowing a house is the same way you know. Well exactly! The point is that looks very nice . Yeah. You know, but I mean if the church cannot find contributions it really can't ! Well you see , like like . Exactly! Yes well erm we're still going to have to talk about it with the elders you see. Sorry, what did you say? We're still going to have to talk about with the e , with the With the joint elders group. Yes, yes, yes, yes Erm Quite right! which meets on Monday. Er so I might be in touch with you after that. Oh right. But I mean even now you can you can read that thing out to me. Yes. I mean, that, that was you er goals, you know. No, no messing, I mean I did that ages ago and I,i , it just arrived! I think I was already in . Did you have a good holiday by the way? Lovely holiday, thank you. But I wa but I was there for a fortnight and when I came back I, you know it's preparing for Synod just takes all the time we have somehow and I Oh yes. I I was only off the plane just last week I'd better have a look at this Yeah. dear, dear, dear! Just a mi , matter of interest where do you come from because on this dictionary thing I'm supposed to put down what people's local accent is? Ah, that's good! Only Oxford, no I'm, mine is in in inexplicable because I've lived in so many places and I pick up accents! I was born in Lancashire, so that's Mm. the basis of it all. I've had the roughest edges knocked off it when I went to University. And the , but then I went to live in Northern Ireland so I've got a so picked up a fair bit of Northern Ireland. Yes well, it does happen when,whe Cos it's a hybrid, it's an old It it does happen when you move around. Yeah it does. In I think it happened to me to some extent. Well it does, if if if you pick up accents, some people never change! That's true. some people, doesn't matter where you go they never change! But, if you are at all I mean yo , you, I think you pick up reflections. Mm. You know, I haven't been consciously stru , striving to change my accent. In fact, you know I'm consciously now not to become a Welsh accent because if I've got the Welsh accent added to it all it'll be horrendous! But er Right. I have Yeah. isn't it? Yes. It's at least distinctive! It is. On the notice you sent out the other day for Monday's meeting Yes. I think you put a paragraph first that said maybe we will need to consider our recommendation Yes. and the, of course, you went onto to number one the man's two er, group secretary who draws it out I forgot what the other one was. Yes. Maybe in some thing which at the moment is that the be number one. Er which wo , which one you mean, the Well tha tha that number one be the question on recommendation. I see! Oh yes! Well I was thinking that. Yeah. But it really is, it might have got lost in the paragraph mighten it? Cos when the comes underneath. I see what you mean. It isn't being critical at all but on this position situation that might the first thing that we Oh yes, I was assuming that erm a I do , I didn't really set it out as a formal agenda just as a Just as a note a reminder, like. Erm I don't know what the situation will be in the other churches. Mm. And I must say between us at the moment there wasn't a strong feeling what it's all about. Not a strong feeling in favour? No? No, I'm only saying as prepared with Mm. . Well erm I mean, this is nothing to do with a don't worry that's we don't want them thinking that the house is the issue cos it isn't, alright? The house what rate is ? Yes. Whether there are the No I thi which erm we had an elders meeting on Thursday and between Sunday and Thursday various people have comments and people along Mm. on Saturday or Sunday erm there was erm a tale at the elders meeting on su , subversion and overall feelings erm erm that we wouldn't . Oh! That's a pity! Yeah well that's erm, I mean, the only talking is between us at the moment it's just, you know,. If, of course, on Monday that's a vote, a recommendation is taken Mm you know we would accept a reco , whatever the Monday's meeting was. Yes. We we wouldn't mean sticking out of the wood and saying no . Yeah but In fact, report back just all about meeting and say Bu , but o , on the other hand yo you've got to se you've to er give the information that you have about the feeling in the church! Yes. In fact we i it would expressed interest it will be expressed a week on Monday. Yes. Erm I mean I I, I don't know, I mean i it's not not, it's not my business to even look Oh yes. one way or the other! I , it's simply my business tosortof help the works. See, mm it that's true yes. That if it's as well well before the meeting Monday because at the end of the day you know we, we gotta look at the matter going forward isn't it? Yes. You know is going forward to a week on Sunday and then whatever else happens we're going through the process aren't we? And having this all come on Monday thinking that everything is we gotta to the church we're feeling well if we don't go through now, where do we go? Well I don't I don't think that should influence them too much. I mean it one wants to get a settlement quickly Mm. but it's more important to get the right person than to do it Well cer quickly. well certain things like John there Mm. a number of people Mm. and then what's it amount to? If I use the word aggression. Yes. I mean they It just came over in his sermon on Sunday morning! It's cos I wasn't for that. Weren't you? No. Still he quoted that he'd dealt with in his past. Mm. And people felt there was an aggressiveness a about him! Mm. And in trying to bring these four churches together it would be a li you know, not . A lot of tact may be needed at times, yes. And you could see them all so nervousness anxiety that I wasn't told about. And unfortunately this First can we have you back in the church ! we've had this problem in the past with John ! And with makes Ooh! Ooh! makes you wo wary Mm mm and cautious! Yes well erm I mean you can't help being aware of past experiences. Everybody back in the church There again please in two minutes ! in getting, trying to bring the four together again Starting again in two minutes ! Mm. Back in you'd wanna make sure yo the right role of leadership is needed and er certainly this helps in that as well. Even when. Er just more negative . Well that seems to be the mood . Well what the church meeting's got to decide the church meeting will have to! It's the church meeting's final decision. I mean even if, even i , even if the elders recommend positively if the church meeting goes against it, well that's it! . But erm on the other hand we we've gotta try, as a group of elders to come together I Mm. must admit. To see what goes. Erm, some of us may go to tomorrow and Mm. That'd be a good idea, I think! Perhaps in some way, yes. Erm I I feel by going to cos sometimes they're more involved than these days. Than, than in talk with God Yep. yes. Well not, that isn't how it but Oh no, I know what you mean. and I got a greater kinship because they're a small group. Mm. And I go there every month. Mm. So, you know, I do feel quite involved in what they're doing and they're they will readily come and share with you. Nice! You know? And we'll see, we'll see what goes. And I, I thought it's where we've we could share the minutes together before Monday's meeting. Right, well In , in this situation we've all and again the who implication, not only Wrexham but . Oh yes! Er but we we wasn't sure for North Wales that it's the type ! Mm. What is the right situation? You know basically, by enlarge we don't know. Right well We will see you se , seven thirty on Monday isn't it? Yes yes I'm Then it's then it's Friday again afterwards? Okay, all the best! Er, it's er, Kevin isn't it? Yes. Yes, Kevin Kevin er I don't know whether but she's none too well! Ah Oh I'm sorry! Erm I'm trying to find somebody about getting this put right. Mm. But she's had meningitis back which is a bit tricky for old health! Mm. So whether she'd like some, I don't know. Right. Hello! In our last meeting John the need to do a little thing that would the district but I felt that because of the time pushing that wha , what's his name has said about the erm the River Yes. adventure was probably enough that erm I would have flown a kite and one or two things otherwise! So I felt because the time was pushing, passing so much, and the Yes that was . and I naturally er I thought Chris gave a good report! When's, yeah Well it was practically the same as he did at district wasn't Yeah. it? Yeah. Oh it's very articulate, very good! Mm. I didn't know he was gonna be here . Erm oh well maybe yours can be saved up for another time? Mm. That's it!. Mind you don't step on the ! Oh I'm sorry! No I didn't like to go and step on the ! Er can I hang this up and no , so as not to take it into the church? Where can I Well where , where do you wanna hang it up? Ooh sorry ! Sorry ! Here we are put it there. Yeah. Right. Alright ? Woops! Thank you. Thank you very much .? If I forget it, it's not desperate but I'd like to take it. What, are you taking it ? Ah, switch it off. Right, that goes in upside down like that. Moderator and friends let me say first of all that I'm glad to be able to make these speeches on behalf of the member churches of and I'd like to also on, particularly on behalf of the England and Wales , though I did realise having said that that you have a minister of the University of Penryth is also a member of this Synod, and therefore, you've got me three things! Er I greet you greet you on on behalf of these. And, but I, I'm glad to make a greeting from a, a wide range of churches erm, I've got to discard this figure because I've got . But including churches that are,Orthodox church and the Lutheran Lutheran churches in Wales and now hopefully, during this year some sanctity churches in Wales. And so that there will be a a broad spectrum of people who with us confess a common faith, serve a common Lord and proclaim about our gospel serving within this number of people in Wales and therefore I'm glad to bring you greetings for that reason. I'm glad to bring you greetings because I think you serve a particularly unimportant purpose! When, when I was asked to comment be before John was, was ever elected erm is that you elect moderators from e , whatever happened to a moderator! Be before you were chosen by whatever process a number of us was asked to comment and one of the things I felt it important to say was that the URC plays a very important role both in being a bridge between all these nations but also serving a particular reform tradition within Wales. And that this larger responsibility, having more local responsibility combined in one small church is an important role. But I think that came through in this morning's conversation. And I'm glad also to to to greeting, it's my last part John, if you'd like to know! Erm be because out of that debate this morning I sense you have much to offer the rest of us and I hope that that conversation will not be a conversation confined your Synod or to the to the assembly of URC but that we'll find ways of sharing that perception of ministry with those of us in other churches cos you don't need me to tell me, tell you that that key question in the whole ecumenical debate, not just in these nations but worldwide and I think that from within this reform tradition in which I share I will hope that we will find ways of offering that perception of ministry, in all its forms as erm, a symbol and a sign of the ministry of the whole people of God we have that to offer the churches in Wales and worldwide and I hope that we can find ways of doing that. And for those reasons and for the fact that I, more or less enjoyed the journey and had to come anyway as a chauffeur! Thank you Noel. We move to the Ecumenical group, it's on page number fourteen? Page four on page four. Thank you moderator. Having read the Synod class letter I will assume you haven't acted on it and therefore rule, resolution one. You will see this report for debate. Not half! If there are no questions on the paragraphs of the report not covered by resolutions Are there any questions or comments on paragraphs one or three, or four onwards? No. In that case resolutions. I then resolution two which is continuing the process that we were introduced to the last Synod and the previous Synod consideration of the endless discussion document on Christian initiation. I hope! , anybody wish to speak to this in will you any visitors? Silence!the resolutions before you and the second, the working party and to consider and coordinate from to endless . All those in favour. Any against? I think it's important also that having done that that also replies the eagerness and activity in which it was Ha! about the whole process of Christian initiation. I mean, having done that we haven't yet set up a working party and let the rest of the world forget about us! As one seems possible. Number three please. Resolution three concerns the agreed procedure and service for the ordinat , the electoral statement held as a United, United Reform Presbyterian Church of Wales churches. I all had hoped to be able to bring before you a final draft of th the service it has not yet finally been passed by the Presbyterian Church of Wales therefore, discussions on what form and how it will be printed have not yet taken place. So you've got the latest draft, with the latest amendments those of you who have taken one to se , look at it. If you haven't I assume you trust the URC doctorate worship committee and ecumenical at home committee and the group! Oh ha!! Absolute ! I am happy to let those erm tra , procedures of the electional, ordination and induction of elders in joint URC Presbyterian Church of Wales . Yes? Question? Yes, only one question I've got please. Er, erm Under the line! Oh Sorry! I di Within the next, er month or so a national consultation is being held within the URC to consider the advice of producing a programme of training for eldership which will be used throughout the call of the church and if there are any suggestions or any proposal that anyone would like to make I shall be very glad to receive them within the next month. Thank you. Any other questions or comments? And you . Yes, but I'll try to be brief. As I understand things, and I work from what I know to what I don't know anyone ordained an elder following these guidelines is recognised as an elder within the United Reform Church and within the Presbyterian Church of Wales. As a result of that, and I think to make sure this is something we would have to ask the advisory committee but I would read it that that includes mutual recognition of eldership. And so in my That it would yes. But I'd want to consult the giant advisory committee before putting that into print. Yo , that's an important question that comes as a we can attempt or the group can attempt to answer that question the in reports of the next so we don't lose it off the agenda. Yes. Would that be fair? Yes. I'll just put that aside. All in those in favour of the resolution that we commend to these to the church we agree the procedure for the election of ordination and induction of elders in and in churches. Please show? Any against? Actually I've rather hurried through that objective part of our I only had my time to bring before you one other very important issue and two other pieces of information. There are a few copies remaining of newsletter. There's also information about the International Ecumenical Fellowship which is something that you as an individual can do to support ecumenical work. If you want to know more about it, pick up a leaflet. If, we have run out of leaflets pick up John ! Because he is a member and he can tell you about it. The most important thing in this report is from the Council of Churches for Britain and Ireland and it's a resolution that they passed on Northern Ireland. You should have this received this in the pew when you came in this morning. The reason it is important today is because tomorrow has been requested to be appointed to be a special day in prayer for peace justice in Northern Ireland. Like this resolution I would urge all of you when you go back to your congregation those ministers who are following the moderator's request, those ministers from the South who will not be conducting morning worship tomorrow because of the long journey request whoever is conducting worship to use this in the service in the prayers! Those of you who are here without ministers badger your minister! When you get back tonight or tomorrow to include this in your time and prayer in one of your services tomorrow. And don't let it stop there! A day of prayer is important as it changes our pattern of prayer and as it changes our concerns week by week and year by year. Some of the attempts at peacemaking the churches in Ireland are making may seem worrying may seem politically subversive but how will we respond to the longing for peace to the desire for reconciliation for the hope the stakes that will result in a permanent and just solution? I commend to you all this of prayer. And will move that this document be taken back to your local churches and used. We . We move to page five, the top half of page five and and Graham will introduce the world famous issue. Having cre , credit by David 's withering look I always say you have to be terrified! It's a bit I'm a spy! Oh, after all that it didn't work! It's at this point in our agenda when er the world search it's our agenda and er in introducing the report there are just four things I want to comment about. Er, I refer, first of all to the continuing links we have with the church in Hungary and to remind that there is a, a party of young who are currently negotiating the er, visit to Hungary at this present time. And er, we would hope that that programme of reciprocal visits will continue over the ensuing years. We also find there are, and I hope that you will read it carefully, because I think you will find it a fairly daunting report which comes from Hugh who has managed, you know, has been working, erm, in er, Romania with the Bishop erm, who more or less, kind of, started off the, or whose work started off the the revolution that took place in Romania. Within that report he tells us erm, the rather startling disturbance story, that in fact it almost suggests, has been suggested the revolution hasn't happened because the situation has continued as before with a different name but basically with the same er with the same kind of programme intact. And in the creation of unity, unity there's deep concern about the status of American churches in Romania and obviously the Hungarian church in Romania is affected by that whole process so I would urge you to read that letter to remember the work of Hugh erm and to be aware of, of what the situation is in that part of the world. It seems important that I should have links, in developing links you ought to see that as part of our agenda. Hugh, himself I think he is completing his work and there, in, in a few months time and I know there have attempts made to find someone to replace him. As yet er, that has not been possible, but if you knew of anybody, young person who you thought might be suitable and might mi , might like the challenge of an interesting venture of this nature I'm sure if you let us know, or let the moderator know we'll be very happy to, er, suggest that name or see if there's any, any possibility erm, in continuing that . We also feel it's important that we should be doing just a bit more than just having exchanges, that there is a whole process of that needs to go on. There's an assumption by some politicians that just because there is this immense change taking place in Eastern Europe, that this is victory for Western capitalism erm, I think there might be some of who might be a bit cautious about that victory and might believe that er there is still much that needs to be shared and understood and it isn't as simple as perhaps some political figures might suggest it could be. So I want to, first of all, in presenting this report to remind you of the importance of that link and for us to encourage its development. Secondly, the World Church erm is your agenda in the sense that you might be interested to know there is a erm a video now available, er which introduces the work of CWM for the churches. And that video can be obtained from Tavistock Church, in Tavistock Place it costs twelve pound fifty, with one pound fifty postage erm, but I think that it has been recommended to us and a number of the provinces have asked for copies to be made available and then maybe there are some churches within our provence that might like to have that video so that they can draw the attention of their churches to the work of the Council for World Mission. Thirdly, we will in a moment be hearing a report erm, about the World Council of Churches assembly which took place in Canberra so there is another aspect to the World Church hitting our agenda today. But fourth, and I think it was reflected very much in the discussions this morning just to simply remind you that you are the World Church! You know, we sometimes think of the World Church as being something that's out there beyond us, but we are the World Church aren't we? We're we are part of the that process and it's it's sometimes encouraging for us to remember that there are small denominations, small groups like us around the world who are struggling to make their Christian witness real in their particular context. And it's important that the kind of story that we're being told this morning, or to continue to be told, we are to continually hear and observing stories because they are encouraging it does make us feel that even though we are a small denomination that does not stop us from preventing new ideas which we can share and in which we can learn from each other. So, I would hope that out of this experience of this morning you will continue to er let some of those stories come forward and, and let us hear them and let us share in them. And, with those comments moderator, I'd like to present the er report of the World Church, Church and Mission. Are there any questions, either on the report or in what ? Then it gives me great pleasure now to erm I always knew that John al , has had something different from the rest of us you know he has that kind of air doesn't he, that that status in the pulpit which you know,? And of course, I've now discovered what it is, he's a distant relative of the Archbishop of Wales. There was always er there was always something there! There was just something about his daring . that's alright then. I'm not gonna do that John. Erm, I'm I'm never sure about Bishops and Archbishops, erm I remember Archbishop Runcie once commenting about er, an activity that took place at the installation of a Bishop and it's, I gather, I mean I've, I haven't actually been to one, but if you're Bishop or an Archbishop when they act to the triumph and act of installation took place there were you'll find that the person was surrounded by Bishops and they were all sort of looking in on this er, this body that was gonna be installed and somebody once asked what are they doing? Ar , Archbishop Run , Runcie said well it's just simply an operation to remove their backbone! Erm I don't know! I would like to er say that we are very grateful today to be able to welcome amongst us his grace erm, the most reverent Alwyn who has just recently been elected as the Archbishop of Wales. We're delighted that you have found time out of your busy schedule and timetable to come and spend time with us today and we're very glad that you are able to do so and I would ask er, John, our moderator if he will receive me now and invite you to address our . Well, first of all may I respond positively to those kind words of welcome that you extended to me. At least, I feel at home. I won't say any more! Some of you may have listened very attentively to the, to a programme that put o , was put out a week ago I think, with Betty er, in Welsh and er some of you therefore, will know something my background. Er last year and time has flown hasn't it? Last February, twelve months last February I'm, I was privileged to travel to Canberra in Australia fortunately not on my own, because there are wi , witnesses. Er There were seven of us from Wales er and two of them are present here this afternoon. Noel was present and presenting the Welsh independence in and also Gethyn was present erm I'd like to see, er, know that Gethyn was representing the Church in Wales apart from the fact that he's also a baptist. Er, as you know, Gethyn does work for the Church in Wales now and this, in a special way, is a testifies to the fact that he is er an ecumenical person. Working ecumenically in Wales. He is also a secretary of Envis that is the commission of covenant to churches of which we are all members of churches. Yes, I er I went in February nineteen ninety two and certainly this was a great privilege to be there for, was it, three weeks? Three weeks I think er spending time with members of other churches and also members of others cultures from all over the world. The er I've got to keep an eye on my watch, this is what I'm going by! It's a more than anything else. I know that you are behind schedule and I don't want to incur the wrath of your moderator! During the, the fortnight in which we met in Canberra eight hundred and twenty six of us were official delegates er, to the World Council of Churches. Delegates from the member churches. And, in a sense the World Council of Churches at this point can be regarded as the supreme legislative body of the World Church. And you're quite right er we must regard the World Church as meaning ourselves. We tend to refer to the World Church as something outside our particular constituency and we mustn't forget that we must own the World Church. And this is something that came home to me very much in Canberra. We we are from Wales and I would like to say that all the Welsh representatives were at one. That we could own what was going on in Canberra. This was not entirely true of other people from other churches in the United Kingdom unfortunately! The World Council of Churches assembly takes pla , place roughly every seven years. And though the World Council Churches was formed before the second world war yet, the first assembly was not held until nineteen forty eight at Amsterdam! Second assembly was held in nineteen fifty four at Edmunston in the United States. And then it was fir , er, the turn of the third world the third assembly was held in New Delhi in nineteen sixty one. And then, the fourth assembly er, was held in Loopsala Sw in Sweden and the fifth assembly was er, held in Nairobi. And then er, the sixth assembly in Vancouver in nineteen eight three and the seventh assembly in Canberra, last year. Now, you'll see that it has a tendency to go all over the world wherever it is invited but whoever invites the World Council of Churches now must, in fact, be able to cope with a great number of people! Not only delegates but also people who attend as a service from other churches outside the membership of the World Council and also to cope with the press. Unfortunately, in this country we were badly served by the press! And it had, it'd be true to say that whatever you read in your newspapers er, while we were in Canberra, I would advise you not to believe half of it! Or a quarter of this! Because what came back to us was very much tittle tattle gossip that people picked up in er, Canberra! And, it is true to say that that did not represent the what really went on in Canberra! Because, above all, it was an experience experience of meeting people from different churches wi experience of meeting people of different cultures experience, too, of listening attentively and worshipping with people of different church traditions of your own. And that was something to er an experience to cherish! The World Council Churches on this occasion reviewed the work accomplished during the seven and a half years since the last assembly in Vancouver in Canada. It rec , received a report therefore, from the Central Council of the World Counc , Council of Churches which meets I think, once a year Noel can correct me on this once a year, or a at least once every two years. And then we have a member from Wales on the Central Council of the World Council of Churches, Miss Carole who er, although she is from Wales, member of the church of Wales she now lives in Belfast. But er, we were not successful in putting up an er and er to have a member of Wales elected on this occasion to serve for the next seven years unfortunately! And er i , it, this caused a great deal of hurt, if I may say so? And then the er Council also set guidelines for it's programme in the years ahead. It also chose presidents, it also chose, a hundred and fifty members to serve on the central committee, or the executive committee of the World's Council of Churches. It also made statements on pressing issues in the church and the world. And these, above all else included the Gulf war because this war was on while we were in Canberra. And this really owed a great deal of tension! We er, the we, we have also to make statements on the indigenous people and land rights because we were confronted with the position of Aborigine people in er, Australia. And we were concerned about their land rights or in other words, their human rights their natural human rights. I'll speak about that in a moment or two. We were concerned too about internal conflicts in certain countries and especially in South Africa. But all these statements revealed the desire of the assembly to pray more ardently for the spirit of unity to reconcile people. Indeed, this was a very rare opportunity for all delegates and visitors, as I said, to meet to listen yes, and to hear it first hand about the life and witness of more than three hundred member churches throughout the world in a hundred countries! It was certainly and opportunity for the churches together to look at the world situation in conversation together and thus, to deepen the faith which have to proclaim at arriving at a common understanding of the situation. It isn't the you are not expected, at least, I was not expected to to see the Council producing masses of pages for our reading afterwards and this report, by the way, is worth reading. Sounds of the spirit. If you had read this I shouldn't be here this afternoon! But are we going to inflict that on you? But, can I say this that what mattered most to me was the fact that I have been in conversation with so many people and to be able to allow that conversation to affect my faith and a faith that I have to proclaim day by day and Sunday by Sunday from the pulpits of my church. As previous as in previous assemblies worship wasn't central to our activity. Besides, morning worship there were midday sermons and in sessions together with evening worship. What I missed most at this occa , on this occasion was the opportunity for bible study, but I think getting pe er, a visitor of another kind there was able to visit some of the bible studies each morning. The daily pattern of study and discussion work was divided into two parts in the morning, participants met in small groups in the afternoon, all members met in session sessions reports from central committee and also er, reports on developments in the World Church. The main theme of the assembly, therefore, was the prayer come holy spirit renew the whole creation. .Appertaining to a to infuse through dramatic presentic presentations the main theme by the or aboriginal of Australians telling about their life and struggle. Other Ecumenical topics presented were the life and history of ecumenical movement you retain and justice and peace ecumenical sharing. and indeed, the recent programme justice, peace and integrature of creation featured very prominently in our discussions. And no doubt, it will continue as a very important theme for the future. Some themes of the assembly therefore were giver of life sustain your creation spirit of truth set us free spirit of unity reconcile your people Holy Spirit transform and sanctify us. What about the background, therefore to the assembly's discussion? But first of all the global situation in the Gulf. This marred the peace situation! Plane flights had to be diverted so, by the time we got to Canberra we were very conscious of the destructive element of the Gulf in our prayers and in our discussions. Secondly, we were made aware of the effects of what can be described as liberation thinking and liberation theology not only in South America but only, also, in the Pacific regions Asia, Japan and Korea. Then there was the influence of the third world, or the two thirds world the churches the politics and the cultures. And then fourthly, more and more the orthodox churches placed, played a very significant part in guiding the port of as far as as the assembly was concerned. Significantly to, there was the abstinence of Roman Catholic church influence and dominance. Some of us, some of us tried to make a plea and I hope we will try, still try to make a plea that there should be a significant Roman Catholic er, element within the membership of the World Council of Churches in the future. So we were presented, as it were, with a partial membership of the World Church. As far as I'm concerned two things set the assembly in context firstly, the sense of space. For many Australians the desert which covers much of their country means a vast emptiness solitude and the struggle to survive in hostile surroundings. But, for the original inhabitants of the lands the desert is the familiar place that provides nature and gives meaning to life. It was natural, therefore, that the assembly should take up this kind of understanding. It was not too late to realise that space should be given in the programme for a proper consideration of the perception of winning in relation to the whole team of the assembly. Winning space therefore assumed a significant part of the assembly programme. Again, as I said, the Gulf war brought the peace question very much into the arena and accordingly there was always the pressure for prece , reconsideration of the peace under the general heading of peace space. And, can I suggest that we need to bring that very much into our discussions and into our prayers constantly in our churches. Significant that we have been challenged by our master to be peace makers how real is that in our churches? And tomorrow will be the real test, won't it not? That we are really praying for peace and identifying ourselves with peace struggle in Ireland. Secondly, there was also the context of the Aborigines. We were reminded of their plight at the opening service of the assembly. One thing I forgot to bring with me this afternoon was a tape of the assembly worship I'm sorry about that, but I don't think you've got a tape recorder have you? That upsets me! We were reminded of their plight of peace, as I said, at the opening service. Outside the marched in the aborigines had their fire of gum tree branches to purify the atmosphere very much like the flames of fire which appeared on the first whit Sunday. The twenty sixth of January seventeen eighty eight the British established a small prison community at Sydney Cove on the east coast of Australia villain read the declaration and hoisted the Union Jack claiming the east coast of the entire Australian continent for the British crown. And that meant quite a effect as far as the aborigines were concerned they had lost their territory! The aborigines were not consulted or compensated! European occupation of land gradually extended through most of the continent. In more remote areas reserves were set aside for the igi indigenous hab , inhabitants. They were sa , put aside, they did not count! But by the end of the nineteenth century there were six British colonies in Australia! On the first of January nineteen hundred and one they formed a federation and most adult aborigines were vote in the process for deciding on the federation. The culture of the minorities of indigenous people that was given providence at the assembly. And this was expressed in a very imaginative presentation by Professor a young in her keynote lecture when she called for three significant changes. The first was that for our generation we must learn how to live with the earth promoting harmony sustainability and diversity and, therefore, creation, spirituality was the keynote of the address. Secondly she said there must be a change from the habit of dualism to, what she described as interconnectialism We must see a relationship between things. In many parts of the earth, she said, the organised life in accordance with a sense of dualism body, spirit, man, women, black and white, poor and rich we must try and see them, in Christ coming together. They all make sense. The third change was from the culture of death to the culture of life. What is happening right now in the Persian Gulf, she says, shows the best example of the culture of death! She urged the assembly to use the energy of the Holy Spirit to tear apart all walks of division and culture of death in separators. Let us participate in the Holy Spirit of of life fighting for our life on this earth in solidarity with all living peace. Have you noticed if you listen hard to your radio tomorrow morning and you will hear so much about suffering and death and very little about life! I think we had better try and influence that as churches not that we should about the suffering that goes on about the death that goes on, but I think we ought to give all this another dimension in churches. That one would be thankful of the fact that Christ has spoke and talked about life. Now, this approach was criticised by the Orthodox church representatives as merely criticism an attempt to unify different faiths. But many of us saw it as an approach which emphasised the need to allow the faith of Christ to be incarnated within particular culture and Sir Paul , the former Archbishop of New Zealand took the same stand point as a Maori, in his own address and called delegates present to speak and act as people of hope and to respond sensitively to economic and environment progility and isolation, not only in the Pacific but wherever they are. Now then who do we assess with the assembly? May I make one or two observations and then I'll finish. On the whole, the assembly gave us and understanding of the worldwide church which was struggling to achieve reconciliation and to promote peace and justice. If we belong to the World Church then we must be in with part of this worldwide process and we shall never be ashamed of it. Secondly, moreover, it was an experience a and an opportunity to meet Christians of other churches. Differing traditions and those of other cultures and be in constant dialogue with them. We never have that opportunity in this country do we? Unless we ask people to bring in people, for instance, from the Afro- Caribbean churches to join us in our worship and to lead our worship. Can I also say that, er yes, we were badly served by the press but I think that er the onus now is on those of us who went to Canberra to be able to share with others and we have been going round to tell others about Canberra to share with you and with others the experience of being present in the World Council of Churches in Canberra. I would hope that by the time we come to the next assembly where there is going to be that there will be an opportunity for the churches, er, at home here to take part in preparing for the next assembly. Also, that the churches at home, of whatever church or denomination we are to be they also can own, not just in the World Council of Churches. At present, I do think that there is that kind of willingness to be er, engaged in this kind of preparation. I think, we ought to be taking time to try and prepare, well for the next assembly and in doing so to own what goes on there and to say, yes as the previous speaker said we are the World Church in a very real way. Now, moderator I've taken yes I'm only five out of the programme! Er, can I say that it's been a great pleasure coming er, to you and to say that erm that there's far more to say, of course, about Canberra er, but I hope that that taster will help you to try and appreciate what went on there. Thank you very much indeed. Can I thank you for sharing with us the the example of the concentration, that you put so much in such a short time. A good example for the rest of us! We've got the rest ! We're grateful for your taking the time to be with us. We're grateful to your commitment to the ecumenical life of churches in Wales particularly. Last week we met as a team, working with and next week we will be meeting . So it'll be Hollywell to get , it's a good way of ! And for your your time and your energy and for your fellowship as well. It's very kind of you all Thank you. Thank you very much. Yes. You're willing to, you're welcome to stay for as long as you wish or to leave when you wish to leave. to us. We ought now to think briefly about . is never to show any interest in anything because, if you do you get landed with what I've got to do this afternoon! And it was my concern that churches should know the implication of the children act as it's related to the life of the church that I'm landing in front of you. You should of all saw the last Synod papers received this. How many of you are familiar with it? There are a few hands. I've got a red and a blue, I'm sorry I haven't got yellow and green but I couldn't get the political parties. It's not electioneering er, they're just in different coloured paper to please the eye. Er, if you have not had a copy of this sent to you what I have said to them, by what I say afterwards erm it will be worth purchasing. My question ha , again another question, how do you make the Lord interesting? Shoppers creche that must er, registered. What does registration mean? It means that when you go along to the social services, register and it's above board children's work that you are doing. But they have a right within the law to carry out, to check all persons who are offering help in caring. And registration may be denied anyone who has been convicted of any certain types of offense. It's the responsibility of the local authority to ensure that all those leading groups are people of good standing. The church must make every effort to achieve the highest standards. And the church as bible road to fame in alerting us to our responsibilities. Now there's one thing that I have to alert us all to the rest may not have been important, perhaps only to some of the larger churches but groups are advised and churches are advised to make sure that in buildings that are used ah, for many different groups that young children under the age of eight do not come into contact with any casual people who may be using that building. Now that is quite an implication when you think about it! There is need to emphasise the importance of encouraging people to re , receive some sort of training when they come forward and offer to be involved in the work of our under eights and young people. I don't think there's any need for me to spell out any more at this point what that may mean but the responsibility in as churches to ensure that we care for the under eights. I will, in fact erm answer any questions afterwards. Thank you Nanette. An introduction that is important. There are a number ar , of areas in the ma state legislation that have been aligned to the church, or will affect the running of the church. One is the children act one will be something on on on the preparation of food, another will be one affecting the way in which charities have to keep registered accounts er, financial accounts which means that an example erm is responsible for registering the accounts of congregations by law. And another will be erm the responsibility to er, the minister, the alterations to listed buildings which might be landed on the, on the churches. What Nanette has said has been an important introduction and if yo , if what sa you have prepared altogether is legible then perhaps give it to Eileen and it can go out in the Synod papers that will be helpful. Erm, and in the faith and life department of URC we'd better preparing a pack on the children rights. Other information on whatever . We move now we move now to er, faith and life is on we're on page thirty five. moderator and friends of faith and life. In the very short space of time that we have available this afternoon there are three subjects that I need simply to bring to the attention of Synod. The first the little report under the heading of faith and life, on page five of your reports the second is the report of the provincial advocate which is on page six and the third, the report of the Youth Secretary which is on page twenty. Erm all those because subjects come under the general umbrella of faith and life, and I think er, moderator, probably the correct thing is to do is to be formal and to begin by er, proposing that these three reports be received for discussion. Then I'll receive the reports of faith and life and the Youth Secretary and the new secretary for discussion, yes. Thank you. Er, to take then first the report which you will find on page five you will see that faith and life on this occasion has concentrated on one subject and that is our weekend that we are arranging this summer as we have done annually for a number of years. Er, there is a a little orange leaflet which has been placed on the seats during the day that many of you, I hope, already have er, for anyone who hasn't may I perhaps place these on the front table, there's a the , there's another supply over there and, could I please ask that some responsible representative from each district would please take a few more of these away with you so that they are distributed in district meetings in the near future, and attention drawn to them there er, if there are not enough copies er, then I'm sure the provincial office on receiving a, a request from you will make sure there's more that passed on to you. Now, if you had an opportunity of glancing at the leaflet already you will have seen that the leader for this July's er,weekend is is Mr Henry and, I don't think I can do any better than to spend two minutes of the time that we've got in asking Henry if he would say a word or two of introduction to the theme for this year. Ignatius of Loyal er or er, more properly known to me in church history was the scourge of the wrath of the, of the council of reformation and inside of consumism but I think regards some years ago in on Ignatius spirituality of bibles which I'm delighted to see John has mentioned in his prologue for the er for his introduction to Holywell the the the association's there came to discover who Saint Ignatius er, helping to sort of tap greater spiritual depths and er resources and consequently trained as spiritual director er in Ignatian things. The spiritual exercises of Saint Ignatius of Loyala have once, were once described as a sort of a spiritual from which people of past men, put together again. Erm that is not the aim of Trabecca Er, to start off with they do the full spiritual exercise of Ignatius Loyal all takes thirty days in silent retreat with a with an individual er under individual guidance with a, with a, a director or it could take anything from nine months to eighteen months to do in er day da da da living in open sort of retreat. What I hope to do is simply to share with you the life of Idigo and in experiences and to walk alongside him and also to help us reflectively to look and examine our own journey where are we with God? Where's God in our life, where has he been and where is he directing us? And so it'll be a gentle, I hope and er, reflective type of weekend and er using some of the tools of Ignatius and other tools, cos Ignatius was very er, adaptable er, you know in in methods of prayer and reflection and contemplation. I,. Thank you. And I I, I hope that I, I hope there's a good variety of people will again, as you always have done will turn up er, this year to share fellowship a , on this theme which er, is is a refresh theme I think for, for many of us. Now, the other two subjects I'm really only dealing because the people responsible are, are not here in the flesh this afternoon but Alyd the provincial advocate and I I think of Bill that's also gone too, er yes he he has, he has had to leave this afternoon. Erm, so what I promised to do in er er, a moment or two if people are to ask specific questions or comments to make arising from either of those printed reports on page six and page twenty erm, if you would make your point or ask your question now er, it will be recorded and transmitted to the officers responsible and they will take any necessary action or give any reverent replies to those questions. This doesn't preclude any private questions in conversation with those people at any stage during the life of the church. So if, if there are any formal concerns that anybody would wish to bring formally before Synod and erm to either Alyd or Bill then perhaps state them. Right. Right, yes I shall happy to convey to the moderator that Synod was er totally satisfied with the reports that are here before me and give them one hundred percent support in the work . Thank you. Bill is is erm with the group of young people who are having a weekend in . Er, those were the people that walked in and walked out! We come now to the final committee report which is on page thirteen of the page thirteen. Did you want to stand up for a minute? Yes. While you're stood up while you're stood up have a second and well each worship, right? Come on stand up! Stand up! Up! Erm is Benny here? No. Well it's very simple, who knows the Peruvian Glory? Woops! Will you please come here with me. Erm, who else knows it? thank you. Anybody else know it? So this is how it goes. I think so! I think it goes I'm not sure. Have we got an organ in here? Yes, I think . Okay, sing that. Glory to God, Glory to God Right. That's glory in the highest. glory in the highest The next line is to God be glory forever. To God be glory forever And then le lastly, line halleluja amen. halleluja amen, halleluja amen, halleluja amen, halleluja amen Are we there? You know it? Yeah. Okay and for the closing worship you will be the Oh! and the rest of you will be the people. Okay? So the sings the first line erm you know, Glory to God glory to God in highest and then you respond and then you sing to God be the glory, to God be the glory and you respond. And then you sing halleluja and we all sing halleluja, halleluja, halleluja okay? Glory to God,Glor Five seconds. .Erm Glory to God, glory to God, glory in the highest Right. Glory to God, glory to God, glory in the highest to God be glory forever, to God be glory forever, halleluja amen, halleluja amen, halleluja amen, halleluja amen . Once more bit faster. Glory to God, glory to God, glory in the highest, Glory to God, glory to God, glory in the highest, to God be glory forever, to God be glory forever, halleluja amen, halleluja amen, halleluja amen, halleluja amen . High notes! Very good! Well I must admit I'm gonna have to present a finance report which is received by an overture. And first of all before we er we put the reports we , there are a number of er, there's one alteration and a number of er, additions obviously alteration or I should say a a an amendment is something an important place on page fifteen er, at the tope of the page referring to December nineteen ninety two I've put, which is agreed by GP committee with the exception of young these representatives, that we ask them to bring thirty pounds towards the cost that should be twenty five. That's the actual figure. Erm one difficulty with with giving a financial report is so many things seem to happen quickly and a erm apart from the fact that there was a, a major finance resources comes from we , as well you see that I have to tell you now these have been done on the red letter assembly side and you may want to alter one there er according to reform I see the cost per erm person attending is not a hundred and twelve pounds, but a hundred and fourteen pounds and that means that we have forty representatives we've got to try and find four thousand five hundred and sixty . Now, I hope I've got these facts right and I'm sure that not, that Eileen may correct me that er we have er forty hundred pounds in the budget,budget for this er the erm South Wales congregation has, has kindly erm given us grant of a thousand pounds and I understand from the secretary of con , Cardiff congregation , and he's also offered a thousand pounds I don't know whether we've got that yet? But then That will be, it is thousand so that's er that's three thousand four hundred short of a four by sixty. And what the difference is that er, we thought that you could have one young person per district and that they only have to pay thirty two pounds each, but I think these are only purely Yes, er, I have them for those who received that incorrect information from me, I must apologise erm young people who are going as delegates as representatives of their district must be treated as adult representatives and they have to pay full price. Er for , for people who are going to group and and, for any young people who are going observers there are special arrangements to be made which doesn't relate to our official represented district, I'm sorry about that! So that means that er, in th the total we do have to pay in some way or another, is four thousand pounds with sixty but we'll say we've already got three thousand four hundred, if all the for , forty people go and they pay twenty five pounds each, that's another thousand, so we've got a I think I've got it right,a , we're only a hundred and sixty short. Fairly reasonable! I hope we get that from somewhere. So er er that that is if we're up-to-date on the financial . Now, the most er, serious business the er, Ministry of Mission Fund nineteen ninety two and the Ministry of Mission Fund nineteen ninety three. At the meeting er, of the Financial Resources Committee that I attended on Wednesday the first thing we discussed was the er the giving so far, up to the end of February from the various provinces and we, by the end of February er, the total was up to thirty thousand pounds less than we required er which could mean that the end of the year it could be a hundred and eighty thousand pounds less than required but er of all the all the provinces, bar one have balances which could be used to make that up, so the money is fairly short and we're bear er, for pains, the ten and a half thousand from the first of July onwards for this year. Now erm i i in Wales, and I'm sorry to say, our figure er, we should of produced ninety thousand pounds and we provi , er, produced er, eighty three thousand two hundred and nine that means we are er, six thousand eight hundred down in two months! Now, we have a balance as it already tells you er, in er earlier in the paragraph of this paper that that we had a er balance of sixteen thousand pounds a , in the ministry last year so, if we knock sixteen thousand pounds what we're likely to be short of it seems to me we could end up being twenty four thousand pounds short at the end of the year. Now, there are quite a number of reasons for this and the good news, I think, that I bought good news again this morning is that presentations both about budgets er, and about what we do wi with the small churches is, er, could be some of our salvation. Question of budgets our I was almost said halleluja! If only, all our churches could do that we would really be getting somewhere! The biggest problem of all is that we can't look forward and that a lot of the problems, being problems are happening now, and happened since the er the first of January that should of happened they should of happened in th , in th , in the er at least the three months before the end of last year, if not more! So, er, we're getting people saying it's impossible to pay this even though they were asked if they could pay it at the the the time it was given sometime last July. Well that's one the other reason, of course we have got a large number of chur , very small churches in fact, looking at our mai , ministry figures nineteen ninety there were thirty churches that didn't pay anything to the maintenance and a lot of these, I think, maybe that both Gethwyn and Russell sorted out er who up on on those extremes that you get in a group that, that maybe feel they re that they really have nothing to, hardly anything to do with us they've don't receive ministry and why should that be, and after be asked each year, has to go up? And they see o I just wonder whether they just pile letters in the wastepaper basket! And therefore, if it can really come to this possibility of ministry a sort of, Young Farmers Club idea of getting themselves about that could be a a a a, a, a marvellous boost. So, the, the other thing which is er erm, a real problem, partly because of that, is, is when one talks about an increase in in giving, increase in percentage i , or a contribution of the church is in er, we were talking about twenty percent la , twenty one percent last year that would be alright if everybody gave twenty one percent! Those who did nothing, they can eas , easily increase their giving by twenty one percent, it's still the same! It means that the other people have to give more that's why some of the churches, I think they've found that their er, requests for their er er their er contributions, have gone up enormously! So, er, those are the pro , those are a lot of the problems that we are, we are facing now, will we really er will we end up at twenty four thousand down at the end of the year? That i , all I can say is that my, that's my best guess at the moment. We know there are some churches which er, will probably only pay quarterly, so they haven't paid yet, so that's money that's coming in. On the other hand we know there are some churches that are finding great difficulty in meeting er, what they've said they can and are doing their best to do it. So that's on the down side. So er, at the moment they're saying all I can see is that er, we would have to use up the whole of our balance, that's sixteen thousand and the twenty four thousand arrears. Now, that as the picture er, leads me onto the next er, stage which is what in ministry, er what can we do in nineteen ninety three? Erm a letter was sent to all district secretaries, who I think in mo , most cases sent these round to churches to see if we could get some idea from you as to what sort of increase in contributions could be possible for nineteen ninety three. That's quite difficult to do because where there's so many churches not being sure whether they're going to make it this year how can they say what's going to happen next year? On the other hand er, if we did what our friend from Cheltenham is doing we would have lo , we would be looking forward like that all the time we would have some idea. Now, I'm pleased to say we have had quite a number of of er replies from churches on what they think they can d , do. On the other hand, some of these er are good re positive replies and some of them, some are negative! And, it seemed to me that when I, as the er your representative on Provincial Finance Committee is asked to make a co , commitment for this, for this for er for nineteen ninety three I could say no better than what we had as out target this year and that was hard! Cos clearly we've only er reached something like five hundred, three thousand, four thousand er then it's gonna be a a big jump to get to the five hundred and forty! Now, nobody er er,a at this stage at the er Financial Resources Committee er, challenge us on this figure, I think we will just stage of of doing arith arithmetic of adding it up, but no doubt that the staff will be comparing what going to be, er what within a but have prepared for next year with what we're supposed to do this year and ours is an increase of another percent. We look at all the other conferences, the lowest after that was the Northern Provence which is in a very similar position to ourselves and they were offering a five percent increase. Er, a few others were offering seven to nine and most of the others were offering between ten and fifteen percent. So we're way down on all the others!so, that then falls three hundred thousand pound short of what is required to er, give ministers an increase to twelve thousand next year. There seem to be our two groups er, in one of our provinces and they say that the rich and poor but the rich er er are not so rich and others . That, in fact, er there are three provinces who are already now contributing more than anyone else that, they feel that the churches should go forward to try and raise the minister's to what was proposedly that the assembly last year, they should be paid thirteen thousand two hundred but in order to do that see another six hundred thousand pound raised and it is likely that this will be put as a challenge to the churches at assembly. Now if I could just remind you of what's happened at the Lyndford Haven er er, Synod, last March erm, the Financial Committee have suggested that we should go for a target of five hundred and ten thousand but er, this is we are not gonna be able to even start looking at the eleven and a half thousand if if er all the provinces do it for months and more and we, I think very bravely or foolishly whatever way you li , look at it, proposed that we should got to five hundred and forty thousand and it looks as thought we're gonna end up certainly nearer to five ten than five forty. Erm, but if we er are are going to en ensure that ministers can get er, at least twelve a of twelve thousand next year then we have to er erm there has to be further offers from provinces. As I say, there are three provinces who'd like to go further and than that be even er, more increases. Now, I have put down reports about the finance committee er as it were but I think the responses from the churches and districts sort of calculator will be there, we think that it would seem as though we should only offer the same amount as last year. But, I think if we have further discussions with churches and districts that we might see that we can break that a bit further for that reason when we come to er, come to the resolutions I would advise you er er propose a minor amendment with the second thing. But I think that er . We can now receive this report for the . Any questions or comments on paragraphs that are not erm relating to those ? So any questions or comments on paragraph one on page thirteen? Or paragraph two or paragraph three or paragraph five or paragraph that's it! Yes. So, if there are no questions or comments on those paragraphs erm we move to the other resolutions. be amended ? I think so, yes. Yes. Er, what I would like to propose the erm a a that resolution two of course, was put down at the time it had to be put down er, and is clearly going to be affected by, that it happened at the th the financial services in March and what I have suggested is that you might prefer this be a a a second resolution it is or and turn to the to add on the end of that resolution thus urging local churches to through their consultations with district treasurers and finance committee to increase their contributions to the Ministry of Mission Fund in nineteen ninety three in such a way that provincial commi , commitment may be increased by at least five percent over the nineteen ninety two . But th , the thing is that it looks as though it is going to be a fairly ongoing thing that's going to it may be well on certainly er a beyond assembly when we have to come to a conclusion, and therefore we ought to know the picture er, of, within reform churches far more clearly in giving more time. But, clearly we need to have the authority that the that er to having discussed to a form of . And, If I understand this now Mm. er, we have a choice the resolution before us,endorse the action taken by the provincial treasurer in the level of commitment he has made to the MMF fund in nineteen ninety three on behalf of the . And that commitment which Alan has made, I'm right Alan? Yes. Is a nought percent increase It's nought percent. over our commitment. Erm would you like to take that resolution first and make this a sort of a, an extra resolution Right, okay then. I think that will be that will be clearer. First of all if we debate now whether or not the Synod endorses the action taken by judicial moderator Treasurer. in the level of commitment he has made to the MMF fund of nineteen ninety three on behalf of the provence and we now know that that's a commitment, was a commitment of a nought percent increase. We'll debate that first. It's gotta be done first. Mm? David? Can I just clarify Stand up please! David , can I just clarify that this resolution now supersedes what is said in the report? No, er we're proposing that we just do, take this reso , in other words, if you endorse the fact that I say I I sa committed the But what do you say about Yes. the ones you've written down? Yeah, that's right, yes. The, because this report has been written three or four weeks ago before Alan was able to vet all the information. And in view of the information he had when he went to London for a meeting last Wednesday and that was when he consulted with other people deciding that he should offer a nought percent increase. Okay? So that's right. Erm, one can then . perhaps cure the provincial credit brought to us . And following that recommendation we accepted a rash amendment on the floor of . Increasing the commitment with the treasurer and not to be rash with it but the people understand people who are mostly killed in churches and and either way should not pass to amend a resolution for the Council . You're not with it ! at the er the ministry but maybe the ministry er will be . Could we not have er I think procedure is could we not have the er er resolution for the at first and now that a ministry is in motion? Erm I think we need to endorse the action taken by the judicial treasurer and then if we was then to go onto second bits, which is urging the churches to give five percent more than that in the past you could debate that se separately. Investigative procedure will follow and we keep the two things clear we're making the the treasurer is erm suggesting that this provence of the URC makes no , makes not to increase. There's no to increase over this year 's commitment. That's what we've proposed. Er Bob? I've got a question on Bob! does that mean that the assessment for each church will remain the same for a couple of years? Is that the er, is that the implication? Erm But does it still need, somehow No, I can't or other if the assessment will increase? It will vary because er erm er we we ac remember that we have a formula which will expose to what your er erm, nominated income was in previous years what the membership, you know, these have all changed so it could be i I wouldn't like to say it's exactly the same could be a bit of a problem! But also there you can ministers because minis er churches they count for more than two years stop being central funds and therefore, if we had too many churches that entered a third year of vacancy next year that puts more of a burden on churches with ministers. Mm. So i i it just depends on Thank you. May I ask one more thing? By, by very special Oh! ! Erm in order to meet a commitment which is the same as this year commitment then last here increasing last year because this year's commitment we will not reach this year therefore, we'll be into deficit! Therefore, to pay that commitment again the churches must be asked to give more and ask the treasurer to make a further commitment and the churches must find more again! So it can't be the same as in churches even if it stays in the profit? Any other comments? Keep them coming! to say from what we . Right. Cos I don't mind taking this action erm, I think the the thought is that I would like to propose that we have a word with the government. Because I think that they and that we can only say the same again next year when our own , everything goes up and, I think it's very sad that the church can't ! Is that a formal amendment? Yes it is. Is there a seconder to that formal amendment. Does anybody want to speak for that amendments now? That we add the words with sadness to the resolution? Could I, say also with sadness that in that that, yes things are going up but one thing isn't going up and tha , that's our membership. Yes. Mm. And that is as one of the members of, we have a I think we can afford to have member on the finance of churches who are called at the assembly of the URC who er Good, yes! in fact, erm anybody that says a lot of sensible things and says look if people are asked to er, to er increase their giving by nought percent that me , it probably means the church might have to be cos the membership has gone down! Mm mm. Thanks. Mm mm. The amendment to add the word with sadness to this resolution number two on page sixteen is before you those in support of the amendment that we add the words with sadness to the resolution please show. And those against the amendment please show. The amendment is carried. So the resolution before us now is that the Synod endorses english grammar writing ! Synod endorses with sadness the action taken by the provincial treasurer in the level of commitments he has made to MMF in nineteen ninety three. We'll be making that resolution. If there are no other further comments or questions set before you would you show if you're in favour of resolution two of page sixteen ? In favour? Those against? We now move to the erm sort of, two A which I will now as and this will be that Synod urges local churches through their consultations with district treasurers and the finance committee to incrus , increase their contribution to MMF in nineteen ninety three in such a way that the provincial commitment may be increased by at least five percent over the nineteen ninety two budgets targets sorry! Targets! I'll read it again that we, that Synod urges local congregations through their consultations with district treasurers and finance committee to increase their contributions to MMF in nineteen ninety three in such a way that the provincial commitment may be increased by fi , by at least five percent over the nineteen ninety two targets. If anybody would like to speak. Could I just say a ? Yes. I think I should while you're putting the words in such a way so it wasn't a er, it wasn't thought that everybody just increased everything by five percent. But as I say the the people who did not five five percent er, therefore, others may not have given more! Others may give less because they've got a lot of members so that therefore it's so that the provence as a whole could be advised. And I would have thought us giving five percent and, and there are other provinces that are giving more will ensure at least the the on twelve thousand we pay next year and therefore, starting with eleven and half thousand we paid this year and that provinces and in ourselves went further than that it is possible . Not very good! Surely, John erm, at home would like today off fishing! . How much longer moderator can we in the Welsh provence accept being the poor relationship within the denominations? Indeed, how much longer can we expect the other provinces to continue carrying us? We are no poorer than some of the Mm. noble provinces! No. Because we hear great erm shouts,cackulations of joy from those provinces that can afford to increase their giving shouldn't allow us to sit on our morals! I think it's a great tragedy that Wales considers itself to be the poor relation within the United Reform Church and the answer can only lie within Wales! I can't come en , elsewhere we have to support this motion too! Any other comments? The motion is before that Synod urges local churches through their consultations with district treasurers and the finance committee to increase their contribution to MMF in nineteen ninety three in such a way that th , that the provincial commitment may be increased by at least five percent over the nineteen ninety two targets. For those in favour please show? And those against please show? And that's carried. So we move to resolution three on page sixteen. I think erm er I know there has been some discussion of I I about er and I put er, in this report I think all the documentation that the ministers and ministers that had already seen it and I've explained that the big issue is that er the URC, I think a weekly account o ah of all other informations has er, worked out very on the basis of five thousand and I was been tugging you pay your car off to get that and . The church in Wales er and and from a a survey of one church in Church of England in Hemel Hempstead, I discovered that their rate seemed to be about thirty two P per mile. You've got to work it out on the basis of ten miles not on the basis of five miles. I think also er, and this er, it may be that the er er URC does not want to be pushed round er, we got up er, to how many ministers this applies but I do know there are quite a number of ministers which who need their own cars a and a a at the church that pays the er, insurance, the road license and even something for the maintenance. Now, clearly if you were paid say six hundred pounds for that and you only did twelve hundred miles, you're getting fifty P a mile anyway! And they've got, I think the odds are that people are giving more perhaps er and that er, if they were paid at fifty four P per mile and and got how that would affect the churches er contributions they make? And therefore, er our proposal is that we should adopt the figures at the bottom of the page which are actually those which the the er er, Inland Revenue have recognised in ones where you don't have to er, put in a tax return for.. for . So resolution three isbefore you for discussion . Peter? I know I'm a ! Reading for our , I mean er, I supply my own car, my church has recognised that whether I'm probably if I pay the tax and the insurance erm and I just thirty two, thirty five that's but when I'm in business or I'm in provinces and I'm allowed to pay what, ten fifteen Fifteen. pence a mile? Fifteen. And I do not or be subsidised, you know a a I mean I think that's consistency. Well I I shall leave you to go through the questions for a few minutes. from from , erm I'm rather concerned about what the er, provence here is intending to do! Erm, I've worked for ten and a half years within this county of Clwyd as a social worker, regarded as an extensional and every year my employers er, who are based in London would like the county to know what were the remec recommended mileage rates for the reimbursel to a business car mileage? Now, if Clwyd or Gwynedd or any other county for that matter, within Wales or in England er, decided that in themselves that they would not implement the national recommendation er, then there duly would be all hell to pay, and rightly so! And certainly now that of course, ministers don't have a union unfortunately! Er No. they would allow me half now erm I've been looking at one particular church, one denomination er, which is the Methodist Church, although it has been said already here this afternoon, or this morning rather there are an overall erm joint style with Methodist and with United Reform Church and erm I have personally the Methodist of last year, last September where it gives and also erm, mileage recommendations. I'll be viewing the Methodist Church in quite a different way, but I think it's very important for us to be made aware of how they do it erm for example, if you have erm a a or or and I don't think any church has, are provided within that and gets alike. In addition to that you get depreciation of one thousand one hundred and forty four pound per year which, by my reckoning is ninety five pound a month in addition to that, as a Methodist Minister you get a standing charge of five hundred and twenty eight pound per year which is forty four pound pe er, per month and then you also through i in the year if you have a major repair needed on your car you get a hundred and eight pound now, if in fact, I had , I have a Vauxhall Nova, and let me take these figures as you are at twenty four P a mile, or twenty four point five P a mile and if that's all we are recommended, recommending, in other words, there's no lump sum at all er, that would mean that I would be getting forty nine pound but Methodist , this colleague in Llandudno if he did Perhaps I shouldn't do this yet cos we haven't agreed it! But we have a new secretary. Er, if you agree it an and report. And I'm gonna ask Catherine to stand up so that you can all see who she is. We're involved in bringing things together, we're involved lots of things and At the back in black. there are lots of things At the back in black. committee, if you go downstairs you will see on the notice there a display of various things that we do, and on the windowsills there are various pieces of information free sheets that you can pick up and take away it will tell you about all sorts of issues! The way in which society imposes an agenda on us asks us questions in the churches. I think we're not too bad in doing that. But what we need to do as well, is to listen wha to what the churches are saying as they address these issues. And I want to erm ask you please if you have any comments about the work of The Old Church and Society Committee, the work we do fo fo for Synod and in the provence please make those comments known to Catherine or to your district representative! We need to hear from the local churches, from the district councils what's going on wha what the issues that concern you are so let's as well the ones that you see downstairs, we may already be addressing so have a look down there have a look at the, the information but if there are any issues you feel we ought to be addressing then please let us know so that we can put them on our agenda. That's all I want to say except to er, who, that Synod received the report of the Church and Society committee? I'm assuming you've read that report? Have you received it? Yeah. Yes. Does anybody wish to make any comments or ask any questions about this particular section? Don't think that's a lack of interest, I think it's matter of discipline! Oh Good! Okay then.. Thank you Peter and thank you Catherine erm we will give the view in due course. We move to the DP committee report which is on page seventeen. I'm gonna go very speedily and ask that we receive this report for debate. Good! Yes. Any comments on any section that is not pertaining to the resolution that was on page nineteen? Erm one from Mike Mike? and is that , I always feel threatened or paranoid I just want to make a point on on paragraph seven the rule in which to review the is that my understanding that review will be about the role and of the rule in which the . We will note that in a minute. Right. Er I just wanna refer to item one which is to do with the Synod . That's actually a different resolution. Is it? So we come back to that. Well Do you wannit Ah! ah! Right I would say Sorry! Sorry! Any other comments about any other questions not pertaining to the resolution there? We therefore come to resolution two in which to make it to paragraph one You're so gracious John! So it's just simply to er comment about the the future work that's gonna be done by Glanmole er, the work of investigation as I understand it at the end of that first section. Really, two things brought up investigation to consider the first is with trusts the very important piece of work that's done by trusts on behalf of the provence another provence may or may not know that there are the trusts have now been er, between trusts erm South Wales trusts erm Monmouthshire North Wales trust and Monmouthshire have now all been amalgamated into one and we're working through the implications of that. And we have had the trust secretary who has been working on our behalf voluntarily for some time now. I don't think anybody appreciates just how much, and I would like to put it on record, how much George does on behalf of the provence a very considerable piece of work! If you were part of the trust meetings and saw the degree of work that he does do regularly on our behalf it is quite considerable he doesn't do it for nothing! I can't imagine that George is gonna continuing doing that forever and it may well be that we'll be faced with a possibility of, of what we do in the future to have that piece of administration done will we be able to assume that it could done voluntary in the future? Or will it be part of the administrative task of the church? So I'd, I'd like that to be er considered er, when this whole investigation is carried on. And the second point too, is to say is to ask, at least to consider, whether then in some centres the work of the Synod ought to be trimmed down to match the particular work that is being done. I mean tha , is it all, you know, do we need all the time to have erm extra administrative help and in in, and in terms of which we've been talking about before, I know they might sound like two conflicting issues but one of the ways of ensuring we get the work done is do we trying too much at the Synod? Should we be thrusting more work down to districts and th , and they'll to do the job rather than always assume it should be done at this level? I think, I'm not going to encourage debate on that I think we've heard what Kenneth said particularly about the trusts the working done by the trust and would suggest that we ask Granville to take that on board as well and be within the presentations too. And I think some would be the less about the too much work perhaps being done by Synod and not enough by districts. I think it is something that we should encourage churches to talk about, the districts to talk about speaking of the district secretary I ! But there we are I I think we'll just take that on board like that. Erm, resolution that Synod appoints Jo , John as Synod clerk for a period of up to three years to commence at a date mutually convenient to him and the present Synod clerk. Those in favour of that resolution? Any against? Right,. I think erm we are not going to say thank you to Eileen now because she is not finishing as Synod clerk and that's a conscious decision. It may be that er, Eileen will be Synod clerk this time next year as well we don't know. Synod will divulge a degree of flex no, quite seriously, a degree of flexibility and we're grateful both to Eileen and er, to John for allowing that degree of flexibility to take place. And Synod will of course will be informed er, when, when Synod clerk has changed. But we're grateful to Eileen for what she is doing and will continue to do and we're grateful to John for what he intends to do erm for three years at any stage wha at any stage in which they choose. thank you. Then resolution three that Synod appoints the Reverend David , Henry and Nanette as the rep , as representatives on the Mission Council and this pertaining to paragraph two. Firstly, I think I should say that straight away one hopes that these three erm, and that's regrettable! But the background is that of fifty letters were sent out to a variety of people er, lay and ordained whatever that means! Erm asking for permission to put their names forward and from the, the few letters we had the, this was that we thought was the whitest knights in terms of Geography in terms of sex in terms of I wouldn't say intelligence, perhaps I should try to impress them! Erm are there any comments or questions ? Those, those supporting that please show? Against? Erm now this present report is no longer necessary erm because paragraph three is now no longer accurate erm, because a change that took place in the General Assembly Executive Committee last the week before last. My feeling is that it wouldn't have when there's a been a change perhaps there could be no from the the secretary and as semi-executive now does not apply to this I would suggest that somebody, unconstitutionally, intervenes the Synod advocate and ignore this resolution and continue with the second Saturday of March and the second Saturday in April. Can you agree? Yo Yes. Agreed. Yes,. Does Synod accept the nominations in section ten? These nominations are do , clearly written. Yes, if we could make a comment please the thing about in July? Yes. Could it be looked at? Well it's erm and the see if you could another appointment erm for when he has got . That's okay. Those in agreement with resolution five please show? And when we come to resolution six er, there is only one district council which has a made a nomination for the erm moderator for general assembly for ninety three, ninety four? And that was Mid-Wales district council. You will all find yellow sheets of paper if wondering why we're reading about the . Mid-Wales district council erm I think unanimously wish to put this nomination of reverence in the past erm and the nomination for moderator of general assembly from ninety three to ninety four. They have read it was proposed and seconded by the Reverends erm Mike and Gethwyn and if there any questions I am sure that they are to answer questions rather than ask them to speak to us. , thank you. There was quite a lot of discussion in the Mid-Wales District Council about this nomination erm it wasn't , that reminds me yes it was all members votes voted in favour of it. Erm so it had been thought about quite seriously. Is Synod willing to take this for the general assembly as a nomination for erm if she agrees to nomination for moderator general assembly. Yeah. Could I, could I just ask what particular element she has for Wales to nominate, why why, why was Wales nominated ? Any, you know particular reason for that, having got David here ah I I I've decided to go through actually. But how? But I I of course felt the of giving me something that he would be known by everybody in Wales. Er a and therefore, I would of thought that was a everyone but I'm just wondering why it is that now what of Wales? Are there any other questions to refer to district council? No. Can you answer? Well I felt one of two ways, firstly when we're looking for a moderator of the URC we're looking for a moderator for the whole church. And secondly, in terms of Liz Liz is someone I know extremely well and have worked with in various functions and committees over the past. We have someone always there for those who have er, society those who are poor er, women er, many of the issues that we feel very strongly and here, here She had no sort of cultural historic resonance with the nation of Wales but I'm sure her and the way she approaches her whole ministry would mean that she'd have a lot of than those of us here in the URC in Wales. The resolution is, comes before you from Mid-Wales district council, those in favour of sending er, Elizabeth's nomination forward, if she agrees to that please show? Those against? That is carried. We've come, I think to the end of our business, which is good! You will have tea at half past four which is which is er splendid! There are a couple of things I would like to say one is that you will find people have asked regards the paper which David mentioned in Northern Ireland that has been distributed it was pinned to another sheet of paper erm, headed The Last Attempt and there are more copies available it's simply to know where to find that . We must have three minutes of relaxation before beginning Synod. Before beginning . Thank you for before yo , before you start the please please we haven't quite finished! Before we actually have that three minute break erm, I think we should formally thank the Church of England of Holywell for its hospitality laid down . Ooh! Ooh! Erm Would like a cup of this er Mm. Sorry, now that's ? No, no I didn't! . I knew these pews were hard! Ooh, I didn't realise they were that bad! I feel sorry for my poor congregation! Hello! There's a cup of tea there. Ooh how kind! Thank you You very much. you're standing in the door. Thank you What have we got here? Thank you . Well it's the Hello Arthur! Erm Owen was told we'd got to . John! He's upstairs. Is he? Oh! Oh sorry! Day before it. Shall we settle down! Shall we settle down! you have to say. Who? Steven. And could you please put your hand up if you haven't got Oh I say! an order of service. Yeah and they've been given out? Erm. And we begin our worship and begin our worship with a period of silence. So even if you're standing could you stand quietly! Can we keep quiet please! We all stand. You are the comfort. Blessed by God the eternal mystery creator of the universe heavens of human kind the almighty who loves us with a mother's love the everlasting one who holds us as children to his cheeks Glory to God, glory to God, glory in the highest, glory to God, glory to God, glory in the highest to God be glory forever, to God be glory forever, hallelujah amen, hallelujah amen, hallelujah amen, hallelujah amen . Blessed by Jesus Christ the only begotten son of God word of life contradicter of expectations the revived redeemer with the common touch the risen and saviour with holed hands and haloed head. Glory to God, glory to God, glory in the highest, glory to God, glory to God, glory in the highest, to God be glory forever, to God be glory forever, hallelujah amen, hallelujah amen, hallelujah amen, hallelujah amen . Blessed by the Holy Spirits the Lord and giver of life midwife of change catalyst inspiration the carpenter pregnant with a piece of God a distributor revealing the truth we abhor. Glory to God, glory to God, glory in the highest, glory to God, glory to God, glory in the highest, to God be glory forever, to God be glory forever, hallelujah amen, hallelujah amen, hallelujah amen, hallelujah amen . Blessed be God the trinity the divine community by the church in earth and heaven. Praise be God forever. We sing Christ be the time. Praise be to ,before me,behind me, take off my Christ be within me,, Christ be above me, never to part. Christ shall light burn, Christ on my , Christ all our love thee,, Christ if I'm sleeping, rise in my , Christ in my , light of my life. Christ be in all my thinking about me, Christ be in all , Christ be the with eyes that see me, with ears that hear me, Christ ever be . Oh Lord our God, how glorious is your name in all the earth? Your majesty is praised above the heavens. On the life, children and babes, you have found praise to follow your enemy, to silence the foe and the . When I see the heavens the work of your hand the moon and stars which you arranged what are human beings that you should be mindful of them? Mere mortals but you should care for them. You created the image of yourself and them with glory and honour. You gave them rule over the works of your hand and put all things under their dominion. All of them sheep and cattle yes, even the savage beasts birds of the air and fish that make their way through the water. Oh Lord our God, how glorious is your name in all the earths? After the letter and before sixty. So poor apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God whose prodigal life is fulfilled in Christ Jesus. To Timothy his dear dad great mercy and peace to you from God the father and Christ Jesus our Lord I give thanks to the God of my forefathers who I worship with a clear conscience when I mention you in my prayers as I do constantly night and day. When I remember the tears you shed I long to see you again and so make my happiness complete. I am reminded of the sincerity of your faith a faith which was the light in your your grandmother and Eunice your mother before you and which I am confident now lives in you. Very simple. Pouring out of thanks for the young Timothy who spent the time in prayer if you wish to say a short simple prayer of thanks do so end it thank you God and we'll all join in thank you God. For our Christian brothers and sisters in Romania and a few more we say thank you God. Thank you God. And the joy of wonder of the here worship in you thank you God. Thank you God. For all those who made it possible for us to be here thank you God. Thank you God. Bow down may God be true, Bow down may God in you . For church leaders community leaders and ordinary people working for peace in Ireland thank you God. Thank you God. For exciting us with visions of the many ways of church ministers thank you God. Thank you God. For the faithful witness of our small rural churches thank you God. Thank you God. Bow down may God be true, Bow down may God in you . For all the young people who have shared not just today but shared together in this weekend thank you God. Thank you God. For the people we are going home to live with and worship with this Sunday thank you God. Thank you God. For a day off from all the electioneering and yet, also for leading us back to the very issues that will be challenging our country thank you God. Thank you God. Bow down may God in you, bow down may God in you . We know we are part of a great community and so we now stand Lord as we remember those people who have been a part a part of this particular community to give thanks for their life and to give thanks for them. And remember before you the names of Mr Conway elder at Mount Piscod URC, For these and all your saints past, present and to come we thank you God thank you God. Amen. Amen. gracious spirits heavenly dowsed with life and comfort from the . Long may the spirit carry on in all all our lives. He's now our guardian all our lives, for every and . God his name and if thy name for carry him in every heart and . he has bless my Lord and we must . We must and we may share forever forever he turned to God, our to he . Part of a letter from Jesus to the church. Blessed are the poor the kingdom of heaven is theirs. Blessed are disciples they shall find conservation. Blessed are the gentleman they shall have the earth for their possessions. Blessed are those who hunger and thirst to see they shall be satisfied. Blessed are those who show mercy mercy shall be shown to them. Blessed are those whose hearts are pure they will see God. Blessed are the peacemakers they should be called God's children. Blessed are those who are persecuted in holy right the kingdom of heaven is theirs. Blessed are you when you suffer insults and persecution and cowardliness of every kind from my face exult and be glad for you have a rich reward in heaven in the same way as they persecuted the prophets who bore you. Lord we commit our speaking and our thinking our fearing and our hoping into your hands. Bless our work bless us that all we do and say may be to your glory and for the sake of your kingdom guide us and with us oh God and according to you we are to one church a church which opens doors and large windows a church which takes the world seriously ready to work and to suffer and even to for it and we follow and witness to him who is the saviour of the world Jesus Christ our Lord amen. There are habits and sometimes there are bad habits and sometimes assume they can't hymn composer and our next hymn What is ? Written by , not in eighteen ninety four, but in ninety eighty four! As saying to Abraham and Sarah the call of God was here. Through Abraham and Sarah the call of God was here through God and I will show you and . We and you shall be my hero and guide us in our life. Through Abraham and Sarah the in our God and in I say his prayer and you shall be my hero and guide us in our life. In all through my prayer and in God house I pray he guides me in my and carries me and you shall be my hero and guide us in our life . And so this on our pilgrimage is end. May the everlasting God shield you East and West and South and wherever you go and the blessing of God be upon us. The blessing of God of life. The blessing of Christ be upon us. The blessing of the Christ of love. The blessing of the spirits be upon us. The blessing of the spirit of grace. The blessing of the trinity be upon us now and forever more. Amen. They wanna the key I thought they said they put it in the back bit. It could be anywhere by now. Who's the fair lady ? That was all. Oh yeah, this Linda's one ! I dunno, it was a big . You could always borrow mine. I suppose . You could borrow mine. I dare say somebody's already said it to you but the family were very comforted and grateful for your service . Well that's . Just once, and then we're going. I mean, I mean they must be you know Yes. and er Okay, thank you, thank you. I'll pop in and see you sometime when I'm down at the RAF erm I want to get to the homes you know the old er Oh yes. Because because I, I didn't really say goodbye to some of those people. Mm. I popped in not long before Christmas, popped in carol singing but that wasn't really a visit to say No, no. cheerio in, in a proper way so I said I I'd go back, I didn't tell but I I, I will go back. Cos you're doing it to yourself not to them. You said it to yourself I did it to myself yes. I I I thought to myself, I think you are a damn fool you know! It's graceful really . Well you know there's a there's one, one thing about talking to yourself you sometimes get more sensible answers than talking to anybody else! Well you do! When you talk to them and yo ge ge get a load of rubbish! Talk to yourself, and you think my God that's brilliant! That's right. Yeah, yeah. There's a clever fellow! Oh yeah, I says what a clever fellow I am I say! And when I'm talking to myself I say what a clever fellow you are ! That's right. Yeah. Mm . Yes. Anyway er the whole thing's, the thing's er I should be having it anyway Yeah. . Oh I'll be popping in from time to time. Yeah. I'm be glad to see you this time. Popping in for a coffee morning some time. You alright for Sunday night are you? Will you be at Yes,ye yes I'm I'm not preaching anywhere tomorrow so Oh. Why are you speaking in stereo? Because somebody's asked me to collect people's conversations because it's to , to do with a firm that's making a new dictionary. Oh yes. And so, I'm asked to record all the conversations I make this week. I see! Oh well I'm sorry I didn't know I was on record and er I withdraw all the remarks and I shall deny everything in court. And anything you say may be taken down they say! Yes , oh yes. Yeah I know . We , we're assured that it's all anonymous. Oh we But I've but I've got write to your na , but I've got to write your name in the book. erm what are you doing? Yeah. When you gonna find your way up around my way? But you know I've been terribly busy lately! Yeah. Oh it's Anyway, you know er give us a tinkle first Yes, I'll do that. You can catch me on the phone. Yes, I I think I I think I've got your number. Good! Erm And I seem likely to be busy for a little while unfortunately! How's the erm Roman going? Is it ? Yes, slow. I've started but it's going rather slowly. Oh! I've done about twenty or thirty pages but that's Oh! that's all. Yeah. Well it's not Mind you tha mind you that is type written pages, not handwritten. That's right, yes. Yes. I er I'll get a cup of tea now. You'll get one early. I'll get one earlier. Alright . Right. Did show you the photographs I gave you? No, I don't think Oh so. well ask him cos I I she gave me the pho , the photographs I took on the, on that Friday night. Oh when we did the farewell . Yes. have you got those photographs to show he hasn't seen them either. Oh! We're very . Oh! I never thought, I saw him but I've, I can get you copies if you want them. Erm I get you he only did twelve. I'm sure Mr is not listening! Yes. You're gonna get so let me have a look while you er That's right. Picking all the young ladies Yes I can see her, down there. I know! Are they like that? Yes, yes . I think it's all good ! Mm. So er ? Yes, I've used about three tapes today. Well let's hope it's all repeatable, repeatable Good! and er Goodness! We were down there. You went well on the young ladies! I did indeed! Yeah, he did very well! I always do, every Sunday morning that's what I'm gonna miss you know! I know. Could I have some of you amongst . Sorry about cutting the top of your head off but, never mind, you know! You've still got your best features on. Unfortunately I ruined the film I I thought the film had erm wound on finished and it had and it the batteries had gone flat so it hadn't, so I opened it and I lost all the . Oh yes I I did that once. erm but The only thing you done, it was lucky in that it was only the outer ones. Yeah, well there's only two or three of the that I lost. You know, cos I don't think I er, the outer ones Well on the er Yeah. actual spool. Yeah. Thanks. Oh very good! What do you mean you had more altogether. Well I didn't know when I'd see you see so I thought I can always leave them at Dorothy's for you. I mean that that Yeah. thing . Thinking I might might see you today but not knowing whether you would be coming No. or not. Well anyway George did tell me when I popped in after the funeral erm that you were hoping you'd be here today, I said, oh well I said I'll leave this here then you can . Yeah. Because erm er I didn't know whether I was gonna make it altogether, you know, I mean, you don't do you? No. I suppose I needn't have quite so many but er I quite like doing it. Oh yeah! Oh yes! Yes. There is quite a lot on at the moment cos I've got a church meeting this evening at Flint about er ministry Mhm mhm. and an elders meeting at er Kevenmour tomorrow Mm. about ministry ! Mm. Oh! Have either of them got erm anyone in view? Erm well Kevinmour well no, the Wrexham group have got have, had a minister came last week and this week Mhm. with a view. Oh yeah. Aha. But whether they're going to you know get him talk about or not I don't know. How many are there in the group? Four. Oh yeah. One is very very weak! It was er I think I'll try a bit of your cake if I may? Yes i take it at your peril I'm afraid! Well if I get home safely I'll be alright! But the other thr three are a reasonable size are they? Erm well Salisbury Park's got sixty odd members erm Kevenmour twenty odd Wre er so Johnstown ooh a dozen or fifteen something like that and there's a se , and the fourth one,Bareala he's down to next to nothing! So er In fact, we're wondering whether it's going to be possible to keep it up but the trouble is it's in an area where in the last ooh, over over recent years forty chapels have closed! Really! And we sort of, don't want that to be the forty first ! No! No! Gosh! It's and it's quite near the Brumrose steelworks which means of course there's a lot of unemployment there!closed. Mm. There, are there, is this a a rural area on the whole or that so many have closed, chapels? Er well it there's you see we've got Wrexham is a good sized town! Mhm mm. Erm and from Wrexham down to Cherk is sort of almost an urban development. Mhm. That, as soon as you get a a bit to the west country. Oh! And that's the area where the chapels have closed? Well no, you see erm across where actually Songs of Praise is coming from this evening Mm! is a is a place where ooh there, there used to be any number of Welsh chapels Mm. that I er, now well there's hardly any now! Really? Yeah. Excuse me a sec I just want to I was just letting the water er, the radiator was a little bit Oh by all means. low and I just want to make sure that it's erm Yes I know her. Oh well so er she's coming with Nigel . I I haven't contacted only from what who er Granville said so I picked up the communion the straight away and then I couldn't and she's coming on the or that Sunday the first Mm. Sunday in November and er she's doing one evening in ninety three. Oh good! So erm when er but I hasten to I I didn't know about those people I knew that the the two Mm. Mr and Mrs . Mm. Er and that they are so he asked Mrs to do the reading which she, came out it's,, but so er there we are! Mm. Yes she's taking the lay preacher's course. Miss Mrs Yeah. She's erm And, and this Catherine She's also I She's not quite erm I think, I think she al she's almost finished! She Yes. do on on the the work Yes. her own . And and one that I you know, I've in a way but er I thought well it's er ! they want someone to and Mm. and she does and er it's a I can feel that there when someone's . I've put mine . I haven't She's out quite a bit. no Yes. because it was I thought it was Ronnie? . Over there Yeah er er Well who's stopped here then? You might have a meal on the, the Thursday but er Yes , I'll let you have it. John said you were there. interrupt my speech, I can't come next Sunday I've got to go to Wrexham. But you'll be here next, oh! Yes, I Yeah, will you be here or or er at a , Sally Yes, yes yes! if er Excuse me! . I've got . Cos I'm gonna ask her to erm speak about the . I think it might be . Herbert's in the way! Yes, alright I'll move now! I've got her address, whether I've got her phone number? I don't know whether I've got her phone number. I'll I'll I'll see if I've got it then. Yes. Yes. Well I don't know whether you can get out yet. I think I've, I Herbert's blocking I everybody in! I had to park at The Three Pigeons I couldn't get in! Oh ! If you remember the . Yes, yes, and I . Oh you won't need sixteen megabytes even if you decide to improve the let's unpack that thing and then we'll see how much space we're talking about how much of that's padding and how of that is real thing,. I was taught that when I worked in the grocery warehouse. If you open a box with a penknife always do that. So that you have to So get it to go all the way. Cut the end that's for . Do the contents the world of good! Mm. Oh! What's happened to this . Yeah. Yep!get it out. Whatever! Right we're on to this roll now . Oh! Right! Right! Can you pull that off? That one. Right! Before I realised I've got mine. Okay ! It is slightly bigger than the other one isn't it? Quite a lot bigger actually. Mm. Oh dear! Yes, it's got more back to it. Oh the screen mm, about the same size. It's a little bit bigger I think you'll find if you put the tape measure on it you'll find it's a little bit bigger. Right. Right. Presumably this is the power supply for it? Yeah. Woops! The main colour monitor operating instructions in here. How many spare points you got? Erm one at the moment, but I can pull out the radio without any problem. Oh fine. It's a No, one of these spools Full wear If I can crawl under here I Yes, I just wanna have a look at yes you can crawl under there to your hearts content! You can unplug that for the moment. I'm not really worried about it. No, I just, thinking it's easier if I take it down this way. Oh alright. Then I pull it . Now,. Ultimately er they might change the lead on the end of that monitor. What's the matter? I was wondering where the socket is. Oh I see where it's gone! Right! I should have . Oh there's plenty of wire. Oh yes. Right. Now if I'd have been sensible Yes. which I really am I'd have brought over my Oh! what's his name? My monitor. Why? Well if I'd swapped monitors with you can pro and I don't suppose you'll wanna get rid of your Amstrad today No. and you'll probably want to keep it for a little while? Yes. Oh hang on, moving leads and things don't stand up! Not just yet anyway. Right. Erm I could of taken the black and white one Mm. and then I could have shown mine to this lady, cos I mean the only difference is is the black and white isn't it? Er, yes. Er I'll have another lead for you in just a sec I'm afraid. Hang on a mo just screw this in. Right straight under there there is actually a power outpoint on this so if we can get the right kind of plug Yes. we could actually drive the monitor off the box and you'd only need one socket. Well it doesn't really matter because I got and unused socket here. Yeah but I mean if you i in some ways it's easier cos then when you turn it off, you turn everything off. You see what I mean? Yes. Er erm there's a white plug have a seen a mucky grey, a white plug? I'll lower it down here. I've got, yes. Got it? Yes. Fine. It's here. Right, it's in! That's in? We need the keyboard now. I got a er find out where that plugs in. At the back somewhere usually. Then we can turn it on and see if it all works. Can you hold that for a mo ? While Yes. I hold the lead. Yes. There's a Oh ! That's got the vacuum on the top. Ah! Anything down that hole? Have you found it? Aha. Oh Just seeing it's twelve I didn't realise that went in there. No, and somewhere or other I have got for you a copy of the long string the long you know? The erm the long trip card to work gently. Oh I see! Right there you go! Have you got a ruler? Yes. Yes, that's fine. Yes, you see that screen's twelve inches and that's screen's over over an inch bigger, nearly fourteen. Mm. Do you want to turn it on? Is that the on button? Aha. It's, just rock it. Don't push it properly. Oh good, it's the go , it's the good DOS! Yeah. It's a good do , that's a very good erm files Oh! put out. Mm. Oh that's interesting! Let's have a look. Has it got a DOS directory? Two DOS directories! Old Do , DOS and old DOS. I got version five. Well that's the latest isn't it? Yeah, except I haven't got all the things. Well if it's on this hard disc could we copy it over? We could , we could we could keep it. An E Cos it's I R C and that's that's like oh no, we can have it, it's all set up this will save us a ag , ages of time! Good! DOS. Goodness, a lot of files on there! It would of been better If you'd done a P. No, sub-directory slash P Oh marvellous! I think we'll call it that. .Let's ring . Erm how do we get it to load high that's what I want to know?. Mm. just erm erm I haven't got his work number on the memory so I'll Right. have to look it up. Er I should know it but No handbook, but I suppose we can buy some DOS five handbooks? Well I was thinking that. It would be worth copying all that off. Yes. Before we lose any of it! Er perhaps it's not ! I know, work . I wonder if we'll get him? Ah, well if not we'll try the car. No. Oh right. . this one goes straight through to his office doesn't it? Ya. Good morning! How are you? Ooh fine thanks! We just want a bit of information about setting up a computer. Da , er David'll talk to you. Hiya Rob! Erm these things have come with DOS five on them er but no books or anything! But never mind. Erm in the ah or to accept dot that, no,config si , how do you get it to load high? Have you got a pencil and paper ? Er Oh right. I'll get you some . I mean you got, I mean I've got the rest config sys sorted out. Will do. Aha. Yes. I mean, I've put files equals twenty yeah but I'm DOS equals high with a H I G H, yes. Right! That's all I really needed to know. I don't need much else. Apart from busy sitting there thinking erm yeah, well I usually leave command dot com in the root directory. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It should give yeah, I just need country yeah. Do , does it help if DOS is high is near the beginning? Oh well it doesn't matter. Fine, that's alright. I'll just add it to the end, that's all I was thinking. Sometimes the they make a fuss if you put them in the wrong place. No not at the moment. Yeah. Yeah, ultimately they might wanna end up with erm a mouse driver high but it's alright. Yes, I mean it does it for you doesn't it? Basically. Yeah. Oh. Yeah. I used to always load anti sys but I, then I found out there's nothing I ever I really needed it, so I took it out! But I suppose you've got more complicated setups than me? What? Yeah. Mm. Okay, thanks very much Rob! Bye Yes, right. Now let's find out something! Just check that that boots properly. Control alt it's deleted segment but we don't really need that. We'll let it just setup isn't really that e erm you can do fancy things! Er that's a I think what we'll do is we'll get used to it. Mm. So I'll just put that there. Would you be turning that round there ? I can do that sometimes but I don't Erm no, soon as you get an ordinary chip dot bat file Mm. erm it will it reads the clock automatically. We'll just have to set it once but it hasn't done it. It's no good setting now because if there's no alt dot bat I it won't keep it? Yeah. Mm mm. Oh! Right. Er, I need a copy of Xtree Er I want to have a look at the Erm, my is I'm always carrying it. Here it is. I'm always sorting out people's computers for them. Ah? I said I always carry Xtree, I'm always sorting out people's computers for them. I see! A chair would help wouldn't it? Yes, why not have one? Er would you prefer the chair or the stool? Have what you like. It doesn't matter one can have one. Ah, interesting! Aha! I wonder what's in old DOS? Read me now! View. Oh I understand! That's fine, you can delete that. Aha! That's fine. Now then er I wanna get back onto your computer. Right. Cos I want to that you need to put somewhere safe that's the disc driver for the card. Oh! This is a So that's backup is it? Yeah write protected if you wouldn't mind? Oh. Before you get anywhere else done. Erm Right. Mhm. Right. Where did I, where did I put that piece of paper I had? Here you are. DOS equals high that's high. Drive five, one one that's There we are ! Right! Ooh! Take the Xtree out there what's that's ? Oh that's funny! What's that? It goes the other way. That'll take a bit of getting used to that!. How do you mean, it goes the other way? You turn it it's on the other side. Feels funny! Oh it's done! Do anything different, you still turn it the same way to lock it down it's just Oh it's just the shape of the thing? Just feels different! You can get used Mm. to it quick enough. Er and that one and that one how's that one ? Er control copy all eight files as they are to the and that should do it!say on there. Actually Doesn't take long does it? No. Right! Let's have a look, look see. There are! That's assist what's this? Six. How do you get in this one? In there, oh you don't! Yeah, this is a windows thing. You don't need it. Lovely! Oh that Here? Win eight twenty is? Yeah, so if you'd have been running windows on it. I'll check it. Files read only. Oh well it doesn't matter. Oh! I wouldn't worry. Okay. Oh, by the way you'll only have one det well it you've got the whole lot on this thing. Right. You mean I don't need a C and a D? No. It runs the whole the lot! Oh! Don't matter. Well that's more what I'm used to. Xtree's more pretty in this isn't it? Where's the directory? There's er what's sub-directory known as? Handle?and then sub-directory in D-base! I think the sub dire , we don't want the Gem. No. Cos I haven't sorted them out yet! Mm. Er I'm gonna sit down quietly and do it one day erm it's and make a sub-directory. That's for storing. Can you scroll that down a bit? Oh! Hang on! Further? No, just as bit more, yeah. Leave your sub- directory as utils. Yeah, and I want to make the sub-directories so that can . Make a sub- directory as . Make as sub-directory as WP papers. It's gonna take as long as I thought cos I have to format it and install it. Make a sub-directory as Wordperfect fifty one. Actually that is that a sub-directory or a main one? It's a sub-directory of the root directory it's alright. I see! And that's it! And you've got a sub-directory which says DOCS. Yes, what? Have you ever used that? I don't think I have used it. Well you can always make no I don't need to make the rest because erm oh yes graphics! Make a sub- directory as graphics. Macros? Do I need one for that? Oh yeah! You have macros don't you? Yes. Just wanna call them the same things as you're used to. Printers no print , yes printer will be the same won't it? Speller. You call yours speller. It's now Yes. on. Right! Yes, that's the end by the look of it. Pardon me! Oh well ! Right! Let's take that out. No, that one was brown that was. No, and that one was brown. I tend to keep them in the originals cos then I if I need to . Mm. Now let's boot it and see what happens. No is it switched on . Take that out otherwise it'll boot all the disc drive. Okay. Should be alright. Good! Er Right can I have your erm all your bible ones? There's some . We've had those! They're all Ah! over there I think. Yes, here they are. Oh don't really need this! Never mind! Is this the order you put them up in? Yes. Oh, so you'd like those in order, put back in there?. The only thing is, I did wonder whether the two What? there's two files at the end which I thought maybe ought to be at the beginning. Where are they? In there. Er They're all in one big directory, DOS These two doesn't care! You see those two are right at the end, and those I don't know whether those ought to be together before XX. Well it, they're So all in one directory. It doesn't matter? It doesn't care! I see! It's called Bible isn't it? Yes. Copy mm perhaps it doesn't like Oh, that's the only thing! You're gonna get used to that. The se there's no second star. In that er, Bible. Oh! That's cos I made a mistake!if I did I forget to do a word there? No. Star Oh! So that's drive B is it? Yeah. Star . I haven't bothered to make a label. No, I don't blame you. Take them long enough wouldn't it? Alright? Mm. Right! I will get used this drive sooner or later! Boring this innit? Yes. Still it has go , got to be done. Well you could leave those couldn't you? No, it's alright! I like to check that it all works you know? Get a few things on it and check that it works . It won't take long. Right you are! How many discs did you say this was? Twenty one of them. Mm. Er this one, yes I think we'll put that . Yeah, no I'm putting them that way on top of each other. That's right! Hopefully another coffee? I've just put the kettle on. Oh! I thought you might be ready for one. Actually they spend more time changing discs probably than the Than the actual copying, yes. Well you can't help it when you copy Well look at the speed it takes a disc onto the hard disc! Watch! Now is that a file? That's a whole file! Oh yes, it takes long , spends longer reading than it is ! Oh yeah! Much longer! Yeah. Well it's longer, it's about ten times as long! Ha! Oh because that's the er That's a slow floppy innit? Mm. Floppies are, that is terrible! I'm up to book fourteen . You what? I'm up to book fifteen! Oh! Oh I'm more than half way through! Only nine left. Good! Suppose I could of put this out there ? What are doing? It should be going down. Fortunately this'll be the biggest job of all! I suppose actually loading Wordperfect will be the slowest job of all. Always takes a bit longer doesn't it? Mm. It's er there's not so many discs to load though. No? There's not so many discs. No, but er I can't just do this with it! No. Where are you going? Just wanna look at those. .I mean Autoroute's only about three files. Only got Yeah. three discs so that won't take very long. D-base is what? Five at the moment. You know it says book forty, do you have to know which books you want to go into? Yes erm er, it's on a file somewhere. Oh! No, is it? It's not the easiest thing to No, that's one of the reasons why I've made little use of it. Erm Never mind! I could probably re-name them? To make it easier to remember, except it maybe it refers to it, maybe it uses book something to refer to them. You might have to write the whole programme again to do that. Oh well, maybe I'd better not try then! There's some coffee here. Sorry, I've nearly finished this. I'd like to get it done before I Yes for the, you know printing the leaflet How much notice do you require? How quickly do they do it? The same day. Ah. Only, I could take it to work, you know, Mm. Er now then bring it on Friday and show it to G to Granville. I'll I'll get another copy. I'll leave that with Kenneth for now Mm. and I'll bring one on Friday with me. I did ask, I did mention it to Granville on Saturday. Aha. Because, you know, he said what it was gonna cost him in the future. So if we can save some cost Mm. But it's once you get more than twenty copies Yes. and that makes the copying quite reasonable. Oh I see, it's not an ordinary photocopier? It, it Oh yeah. But they've got two. This one's called an, an offset Mm. printer. You you've got an ordinary photocopier and an offset. The ordinary photocopier works out a bit more expensive. Mm. But you see, using the offset that case be I don't know what's Well he'll generally want about seventy copies. Yeah. In that way it works out much better. Mm. Because there's an example there, you know, hundred two hundred, whatever you want. There's an example there. Mm. Like, I just really that we could reduce the scale of costing. A little bit. Well why not? You know? It's gonna help my school and it will help us as well. It will do two things won't it? Oh it's the school do does it? It's the school does it. Erm because we've got a printing system for the school th they're, they're now letting out their printing services to others in the community. Mm. Erm so i if you like it's, it's officially done because therefore they're advertising it in our last newsletter we send to every parent Mm. this advert went on the back of it. So if anybody locally wanted . So basically all I would have to do is take them with me and I'd bring them home on the same day. Mm. So it's done there and then. Apart from that I've got all the information we want here Certainly you can. We have an open door. Well yes. the the whole of the I thought but I thought it was erm I mean you haven't Er no it's, it's no we haven't had two sides If you have two sides it'll be quite a few won't it? And sixty copies will be three pound. Cos some of these places in town, people have to charge you VAT as well don't they? Which is Oh yes, yes. what pushes well if you go to somebody it pushes the cost up doesn't it? Mm. And a lot of the commercial ones charge you about ten pence a Oh some of them charge you ten plus VAT don't they? Mm. Which is what adds it up you know, really. So it would Well run out now because I've got all the information I want. Oh well You wanna leave it with me Alan do you? For Friday. Er I doubt if I, I doubt if I'll see Granville before Friday. At least no if I do it will only be Friday morning. And I've got a funeral Friday morning I think. typing letters and that minutes a new typewriter No she's learning how to use it Oh yes. Erm they've there's all the different amount of things you've gotta learn I mean it's even different from a from a computer isn't it? You know it's And a computer you've got a spellchecker. Well she's got a spellchecker on this one. got two capital letters It's what? it's got one small letter and two capitals. ? No. Oh it's a, it's a, it's a good one. We bought it from Smith's on Saturday, it's a Brother. But they were making an offer, if you brought your old machine in they'd offer you thirty pound off. So we thought we may as well take it. Mm. Yes I I've been busy today. David's been helping me set up the I've, I've just bought myself a three eight six. Oh. Well I've got er an electric typewriter. Originally my son had it and he went over to a printer. Mm. A computer and a printer, mm. A wordprocessor? A wordprocessor, yeah Mm. You see the beauty of the beauty of the computer or wordprocessor compared to an electronic typewriter is you can finish your document and then do your spellcheck. Yes. Whereas with the electronic typewriter you've got to do it er Oh yeah. Yes . It's really a better, faster ty ordinary typewriter in a way. Mm. . Otherwise they're pretty well the same as an ordinary typewriter. But er with a wordprocessor of course you can alter things. Mm. You can er Mm. And of course you can shift er a block. Move it that way or some sort of thing. Do you take sugar Alan? No I don't, thanks. Yes this was really rather extravagant getting this new one, it was an Does anybody want to buy an Amstrad? Are you giving it away? Selling it. Oh yes I know that. Thank you. Who else are we expecting? Erm I think it's just Maria I think it's only Maria not represented isn't it? I wonder if Don't let me stop people finishing their teas. Anybody want a second cup of tea? Er There's some more tea there I think. I'm alright thankyou. Can we begin? Yes indeed. Sorry Alan. Erm I I think the only person missing i is Idris, so I don't Yes I have an apology from Idris. He rang me up last night to say that he is more or less confined to barracks now in the evening now that Phil is home. Mm. He can't leave her. And he erm sends his apologies. Apology from Mrs , she's not too well tonight. Right. Erm Mrs erm Eileen , one of our elderlies, she's tied up with her husband who's in hospital. Mm. And Mrs is ill as you know, Rhoda is ill. And an apology from Merle from Salisbury Park. Right. Erm from the eighth chapter of the letter to the Romans For we are saved by hope. But hope that is seen is not hope. For what a man seeth, why does he yet hope for? But if we hope for that we see not then do we with patience wait for it. Likewise the spirit also helpeth our infirmities. For we know not to what we should pray for as we ought. But the spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. And he that searches the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the spirit because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of god. And we know that in all things god works for good for them that love him. To them who are called according to his purpose . Let us pray. Father we pray that you will work for good with us. Help us as we look to the future. May we be guided by your spirit. May ou your spirit guide our prayers and our thoughts and our hopes. And father we pray that our hope may not be in vain but may lead us to sharing again in your kingdom. And father we pray too for those who are not well and unable to come. May they be sustained and kept according to their need. And father we pray for ourselves. And we pray too for those whom we represent. That we may work together according to your will so that you may work for good in us. Amen. Er Sadly, although I sent you a letter with suggestions for discussion I forgot to keep a copy of it for myself. So, but I hope if I stray too far from the path somebody will remind me. I suggest that the first thing is erm comments on what recommendation you will be thinking of making to the church in regard to the visit of er Mr and Mrs . Has anybody anything to say? No, and do you want this? Oh, maybe I should have it. Thank you. Erm Well I think er several points should be ventilated and er I, I think the, while you're doing the agenda this evening you could add something to each item in turn Mm. Erm The only thing one would say though whilst agreeing with some of the, the matters perhaps that may be aired have a bearing on the other matters in the agenda. Perhaps number one the one that's in the first paragraph Yes. I'll be in a position tonight, perhaps after some discussion, to make a recommendation one way or the other. Yes. Well well er yes well from what I've already learnt, and I've got to be rather blunt in this matter, I'm afraid that Carol 's expectations John . John rather's expectations regarding the amounts, they're very ambitious indeed and I can't speak for Salisbury Park but if we're expected to pay a share of any alterations and so forth erm it would be very difficult for us to meet that commitment. Mm. Because we er if, if his erm if his er desires were carried out we'd, well we'd be talking about thousands of pounds. Literally. And the Mm. I don't know whether I've spoken out of place because I'm not a member of Salisbury park but on the assumption that erm that we would have to share in the Mm. expense you see.. of any changes. Are there any other comments on his visit? Er Well ju just to keep the ball rolling, my first impressions were good and he seemed to be er there was some drive about them. His sermon er well it was erm a reasonable sermon. We're not going to get a good preacher. The good preacher can get a much better church than this set up. So we're er we're sort of well down the list as far as that's concerned. Erm at first I was slightly put off by his choosing Cain and Abel as er certainly yeah. the start the sermon but it, it seemed to er develop reasonably. Erm but I was er that was my own impression. I rather admired what he's doing for Margaret because, as far as I can see, he's taking er as she's not able, as far as I can see, to er exist, to live on her own and he seems to be taking over from elderly parents. But erm I was er somewhat put off altogether by comments I heard from people who had been in much closer contact than I was because I, I saw him very little of him really. So I think other people have er a contribution to make which is, well it would be important. Anybody else with a comment? Well personally I mean erm Margaret impressed me greatly but I think John was inclined to be full of his own importance for one thing. He was exceptionally demanding and my fairly long conversation was that he almost lead me to believe that he had got the job because when he started making comments about putting his grandfather clocks in the church er thirty of them. And building a Thirty grandfather clocks? Yes. Oh goodness! What, thirty? Thirty, yes. Or or one ? He said he was a collector of antiques so I said I'd better keep out of the way. Three O he said. But the other thing that worried me, he was inclined to be erm mind you I felt aggression in his sermon a little, but he did incline to be very uptight. Nervous. And I feel that erm coming to a good pastorate, I think he would with his history of having had trouble, trouble I think possibly he, he he would be ill Mm. Because he was, he was a bundle of nerves, he couldn't keep still. And er you know he was I mean for instance at Salisbury Park he probably didn't mean anything but on Saturday when I was saying goodbye to him he said now I hope there'll be somebody here at ten past ten to open this church tomorrow. I like to be here half an hour before the service. So I said well I said, I usually try to get here quarter past ten or soon after but it all depends on traffic because I live the other end of the town. Er however, I got there at quarter past ten and he followed me in. And then, no sooner got in he said by the way, two glasses of water for me. I'm a two glass water man. So I said it's quite alright Mr , we're not very well off in Salisbury Park but we do possess a carafe and that holds three. And then he said here's the hymns, put those hymns up now. I said that's not my job, it's the organist. But I thought oh dear me. That was my feeling and I feel that er Not conducive to a Not, not for Salisbury Park. Not for me. No. I'll, I can endorse that by saying that we shouldn't, as I noticed a certain offhandedness with him that I didn't like at all. Mhm. I, I, I don't know why he talks that of attitude but there we are. Mr chairman as a colleague I felt he was alright. Mm. We had a quite good fellowship together. I heard him here and I think our people was well impressed in some respect. We endorse what you said. There was a terrible nervousness which you don't expect from a man of that age, and of that standing in the ministry. And then it was further endorsed because I went to hear him at Johnstown and I thought to myself well I felt sorry that he was erm what's the word I want? Well he was erm, oh I can't think of the word I want now but er he, he was glued to his notes Mhm. You know? There was no freedom. No freedom. Erm not really and it was a, a different type of sermon. Yes. Er I felt another thing which I, I wasn't too happy about but then again one can soon change these things. For instance the, the hymns that he all had, I presume at Salisbury Park er certainly with us and at Johnstown and at the Rio where there's no alternative, was all from the congregation Yes yes. Now he knew beforehand because we told him when he came, first came here that we also use Mission Praise, and you do. And we do. I, I would have thought, personally, I would have thought he would at least have chosen one from Mission Praise for the benefit of the be for the people who, who like Mm. that sort of thing, you see. And I think Well you do get more modern hymns in that don't you? Beg your pardon? You get more modern hymns in that. More modern hymns and I should have thought, you know, er I would have liked him being a little more up to date Mm. in that respect. Personally. I liked him as a man and I thought er Mrs was a delightful lady. She was a very sweet person. Oh she was delightful. Yes, yeah. Erm but I think I can agree with what Norah has said er er er regarding the possibility of aggressiveness there. Mm. If I may just add one other thought. Whoever the minister that comes to us, I think that they should accept the manse without question. That's what we like to do brethren. Mm. All down through the years. Haven't we? Yes. Some of them being too large. But we've had to bear with it. Too cold but we've had to bear with it. And why there should be such a change these days in that line I, I, I can't quite agree with it. Er for two persons, two people, that manse was adequate I would say. I was delightfully surprised with it myself. A reasonable Well I know you were all seemed to be s you were all amazed when you went in. I could tell by the expression on your faces when only I felt Yes I was amazed. it was only fair to take them in and then they know I think,ye what we were talking about. Well Yes you did right. But each one said ooh it's not as small as we thought it was you see. Mm. But erm it's just having that one room with a kitchen I think for if someone calls probably you see. Mm. Nice little room though. It could be. True. Table and a couple of chairs and portable television if you want it. Mm. Quite nice. And adequate. But er you know reasonable demands are all well and good. Perhaps if he, if he, if he could ask a thing like this then I'm sure Salisbury Park would oblige. But you know, if he's saying, well we do, we would like the house redecorated all well and good. Oh well yes those are those are normal things. No but as erm Mrs has mentioned to me, when it comes to er converting an existing garage into a den or a study and then asking for another garage to be built. Well you know, it's not good enough is it? I would think that's out because it would destroy the value of the house er that, that has got to be sold some time. House, of course, and it wouldn't suit another person would it? Yeah. But er I wouldn't agree that that er manse i that house is suitable for a manse. Mm. It wants at least one more room downstairs. It would be very unfair to er Margaret that every time somebody called she's got, she's banished to the kitchen. And er he, he could use the er h his vestry or another room at the, the church but somebody calling in the evening, he's not going to take them over to a a cold room for an interview. But, but if he knew, if he knew Ken that they were coming. You know? Ah but then he wouldn't necessarily. Mm. But most people duly come surely make an appointment? But I, I think No, some do some don't. I think in some way here, with this particular situation as okay we, we go into the question of the house now the house shouldn't be the issue here. No. Oh no, not not Wi with this situation the The question has been raised, that's right Erm obviously the er and as Alan's asked us few weeks ago, permission to explore maybe looking for the finances, if and when it became the situation. That's right. But if er John came last week and to all of us we were of a like mind that yes, he fitted the calling here everything else I, I see then that the manse would be the issue but basically now we're talking in many ways other issues are affecting the call here than the manse so therefore the manse goes down the, the pecking order. Erm But basically the matter we consider is John the suitable man for the ministry? Yes I I think I think that is the proper order to do things. Yes. I think first of all we want to know er as far as it's possible, which of course is always er within the limitations of our abilities whether we think he's a man that we can recommend to the church, that they should call him. Now the people I've heard speaking so far don't seem to think so. Is there anybody who disagrees with that assessment? Just to complete the picture. Well we had him for the weekend and er looking back on the weekend we were reasonably impressed with the man and his wife. And er from his conversation he appeared to be a homely sort of a chap and er he was outspoken but he would call a spade a spade. Er in church his diction was clear for all to hear. He spoke well to the children and er his sermon message did have a, a reasonable amount of substance in it. But under the circumstances of being there on trial, I did feel that he was very nervous. Er the Saturday evening we were in the lounge and chatting away for two or three hours and he, he could not keep still. He was Mm that's right yeah. moving to the left and to the right and sliding down. Down and moving his seat He, he He's uncomfortable. He was uncomfortable. And when he was in the pulpit I felt that he was there was tension there was tension there Mm. Er whether he did say in a conversation that he, he knows when this nervousness er er and depression is coming on and he takes medication and it's alright. But er that's to be seen I might add that Idris rang me up last night, I was on the telephone for about three quarters of an hour with him. That's typical Idris. But he did ring up. He he said you're one person I can talk to, you listen to me and I can talk to you and er he didn't want to worry you at that time but for him, he didn't think he was suitable. Even Idris who er they're desperate for but he Idris didn't think you know, he could cope with the four churches. Well Idris rang me up last night which is not unusual because he often rings, you know Yeah. once a week to me and I ring him occasionally, and er his first remark which was quite erm natural he said well you know Ernest, he said I've heard many ministers. Yes Like we all have, haven't we? And we're, we're all guilty of being critics. Mm. Mm. But erm Idris said, in effect, which is an expression which we've all used at some time or another, he did nothing for me. That's right, yes. In inverted commas. He did nothing for me. Mm. Mm. Mm. You see? And er I knew what Idris was referring to you see. I thought Somehow or another erm Idris and I have clicked, somehow or another and erm I understand him and he understands me. Mm. And that's how we've er been able to get on so well together Yes, same here. Same here. you know? Yeah. Er but I would add this to you know please do not depend in any way upon Beria No cos he Because it's it's folding up, it's dying quickly. Yes. I'm, I'm afraid that is so. That is so. I, I don't I honestly don't know what we're going to do about Beria No I don't, but So it's more or less a threesome if anything at all. Mm. Really. I thought his nervousness was because of the ordeal of you know er being before us as a But it shouldn't be after all that time. you know? This was one of the one of the things I asked him wasn't it? When we were when we were Yes. talking afterwards about the team ministry and working together and the problems and his experiences. You're not nervous are you Peter ? No but u under the circumstances a man that a man who take the biscuits . yeah, who has er had nerv you know Yeah. a nervous problem Mm. perhaps it was because of the situation. Mm. You know, and perhaps if he came, he would overcome it. Yes. I agree but I think that anybody who speaks in public, you have nervousness beforehand and the moment you go to talk to the people you know what you're going to say, you have a few notes in front of you and you talk to the people, if that is your job. Absolutely. It's what you do. Yes. No matter how much your knees tremble underneath, underneath the table. But you talk to people with the fervour of what you want to tell them. That's true. Er I, I think I would agree with you there that I mean it's natural to be nervous Absolutely, yes. in a situation like that Yes. but usually once one gets sort of started it it gets better. And he, he possibly had done it at least a half a dozen times Oh must have done. Yes. Mm. Even even if he wasn't accepted on a first occasion he's probably had another two or three attempts elsewhere. Yeah. So he's done it before. And and lots of churches that he was telling us that he'd been in contact with. And he must have gone to those churches for the first time. And I don't suppose that, you know, a new ministry is so very different from meeting people in a new church. That's right. People are the same everywhere. Well yes. And they are all there willing you to do well. Yes, yes. Whatever, you know, audience you're speaking in front of. I mean of course you're going to be judged adversely perhaps, but i in a church you are being listened to by people who are of like mind, and therefore willing you to have something of value and interest to say to them. Er yes that, that is important because qu I mean when you feel that people are sympathetic Mm. then it's easier to speak. Mm. Oh yes. And we wouldn't have invited him if we weren't sympathetic would we? Hardly . You know. Oh well if he's a nervous person he wouldn't think like that would he? Well exactly. No I feel that this ties in with his nervous breakdown. Mm. We had a somewhat similar experience at a previous church I was at where we were looking for a minister and the, the man er who was, who came to us was again very nervous and excitable and so on. Fortunately we had a doctor in our congregation who er was s had some knowledge of psychiatry and he had a fairly long session with him, just the two of them. And he strongly recommended us not to accept this man. And this man went to another church not so very far away so we knew what happened and certainly we were very glad we accepted our doctor's opinion. Mm. Mm. Well it looks as though er there's a fairly clear majority against er making a call as far as I read it. I don't, do you want a show er do you want to vote? Oh, does anybody know the of the y the younger people the younger members of the churches? Did he appeal to the younger members? Or No. Not not as far oh well Er if we send a recommendation to a recommendation to the church you see, so I Erm You must know the feeling of this meeting first mustn't you? Yes. But one, one would say no, I mean, I don't disagree with what you said about er the children's address, well I do personally. Yes. Erm he the same children's address here as he did in Salisbury Park. Did he? Mm. I would think so, about the elephants? That's right. Yeah. Right. And in, in er Our children weren't the children didn't even know he was talking to them. Mm. He stayed up on the pulpit or whatever didn't he? Erm you see if this the pulpit, he didn't come s Yeah. And what I was gonna say Alan was, perhaps like Mr you know we had one of the ones sitting here that did go up to two services. I also went to Johnstown yesterday. So I heard him in Salisbury Park last week and in Johnstown yesterday. I felt a, a degree of obligation because of my commitment with Johnstown now Mm. so I went to Johnstown yesterday afternoon. Well I, I've gotta be honest in what I'm saying, I sat through two services yesterday the morning service did a lot for me. But the afternoon service did nothing. Mm. The morning service in fact I would, I've gotta say it Norah. Mm. The minister we had taking the service yesterday morning I think felt as much on trial in Salisbury Park I'm sure he did. Yes he did. Yes, yes. because he was a student with us It was . Mm. Yeah. Mhm! And had come back yesterday He was nervous wasn't he? He was. Yeah. after his first appointment was as much on trial as Kenneth . Yeah. And, but yesterday Hasn't he improved? relaxed Definitely improved. unwound himself and you could tell his two years, what it had done for him. Hadn't it just? Marvellous. But yes, incredible. a number of people said to me how much they enjoyed yesterday's service. Mm. Yeah. He also took a communion service again which was yeah. But I came home and feeling I could relate all I'd Yeah. But I sat in yesterday afternoon and I felt sorry for the man's daughter who'd been given a hymn the service. Who was put on a spot. Erm and as you said he, he couldn't leave his notes. Cos I'll have to confess to you, I saw him diligently once looking below the pulpit at his, at his notes Yeah. of what he was gonna do next. Yeah. Erm there was the whole time a sense of anxiety about him. Alright he knew he had to go to afterwards, half past three, but he couldn't unwind one bit there. And there are occasions, I think we all agree, alright we have to have notes, but you must unwind a little bit to get near to the people. And I would not feel that Kenneth would ge could get near to any one of us. Mm. But I hate to say it because obviously he wants to find, to go somewhere. But I don't think this is the place . And heart to heart, having sat through two, I went home it was heavy. Mm. Well a lot of our people said they liked him didn't they? Yes, oh yes. Yes. Yes erm you see we're in a different, different situation than what you are at Salisbury Park. We haven't had to make a demand upon our congregation to make such a decision for twenty two or twenty five years you see? Mm. Whereas you've had to do that at Salisbury Park you see? May I just say I went to erm Johnstown yesterday because I had half promised our friends here that I would go to support them. Mm. It wasn't actually my Sunday. I, I'd forego'd that Sunday afternoon for agreeing to come there. That's why I went. But I, I also wanted an endorsement Mm. of what I heard the previous week. Mm. And I think naturally we would all like that. Erm Well going back to the very first meeting that we had Mm? I did come away that er really wasn't struck. But I didn't like at all the er excuses he made for his wife. er that we weren't employing her. Mm. Well right-oh we er I don't think we ever do expect that much. But all the same, at the same time, we do expect them to mix. Mm. If they're going to mix with the church then they'll be only too happy to take some part in it. Mm. But then in the sermons when he came here to preach er I didn't see any sign of nervousness myself. Couldn't see any sign of nervousness myself but er I'm very happy with his sermons, quite good. But er at the same time the further I go on, the more apprehensive I get about it. Whether coming here or not and I don't really think that, you know, coming back to it I don't think he would fit in. Mm. Er well We are rather an old congregation, there's no doubt about it, apart from the here. But er you can, I mean we've got, of course I'm not too young myself but er we are set in our ways. Mm. And that takes up with the . Can't alter that. What bothered me most was the fact that he Mm? What bothered me mo well wha one of the things that bothers me is the fact that he said that he wouldn't like to do hospital chaplaincy because he wouldn't like to go visiting because he's got no small talk. And I'm just wondering what the the knock on effect of that is in the visiting of the, the members who can't get into church and who can't receive communion in church, and who may like to receive it in their home, or in the home, where they live. Because you don't just suddenly go in give communion to someone and walk away again do you? Mm. You, you ha you establish a rapport of listening for a little while to whatever it is that they've got to say, and their troubles and their anxieties and I wasn't happy that Mm. there would be that sympathy. I'm certain that the sympathy is there with his wife. Yes. Yes. Absolutely. But I don't how much that compassion and love for fellow people goes beyond his wife to the congregation. Mm. I don't know. I don't know. Mm. And if, if he says to us in meeting that he's got no small talk and no erm ability for visiting in a hospital situation where you can ask people how they are, and then can move to the next person you've got to see I'm not sure how he would be visiting someone in their home. Mm. It's also a question isn't it, of whether you appoint a man because he's a good preacher or secondly because he's a good pastor. That's really the question isn't it? Mm. You never get the two? You can't get the two. You're very lucky if you do aren't you? I would say the second is the more important. The more important being a good pastor. Yeah but you must, that, that, that your congregation, that all the people in the pastorate must know that they can go to you and that you will listen. Yes that's And that you, they, they that they will have, for the time that they are in your company, your whole attention. And your whole mind concentrated on what happens to be concerning them. Whatever else you've left behind at home. Mm. But for that moment you are there for them. I in their service. You know? Mm. In other words, the skills of a counsellor? Yes. Yes. Definitely. Definitely. Er well as far as I can see erm with, with a few minor reservations, the the elders would prefer not to recommend to the church that a call be issued. Ha have I got it right? Mm. Yes. I think you are right. I think Well you've got to have a unanimous decision haven't you? Mm. And I mean yo you know, there's three to one isn't it? Erm oh you mean in favour In favour, yeah. of a call? Yeah. Yes. Well certainly I mean, one would want to have a substantial majority in favour of a call to issue it. Now whether in fact the church meeting would come to a different conclusion from us I've no means of knowing but probably not because most of you know something about the church that you're working with. Well impressed with That's what I'm saying. Our, our people seemed They all liked him our congregation yesterday and erm the feeling I got was that erm we couldn't support a minister ourselves, and we're and, well at least the congregation think that they're there entirely to help Salisbury Park. Erm and I think I go with them o on these lines. And we're hoping to get something out of that sale Mm. and what we're trying to do is plough whatever we get back into the group Mm. so that erm more or less Salisbury Park are the people who really Th they said that whatever the decision, decision they make, they would fall in with them. Mm. So er it looks as if the decision's against, so I'm almost sure that the decision at Johnstown will be against. Well Oh! And you don't have to worry about the volume by the way, cos like anything, it records whatever volume and then It'll then, it can be up or down whichever you want? Yeah. So you don't have to worry about the volume, because you've got record. Gee! Mm? Twenty one. What are you doing? Oh! Sorry I shouldn't be saying because I was Incidentally, I didn't say to you that when they transcribe it, if a name comes up they, they just write erm do you want a cup of tea, name? Not Mm. do you want a cup of tea Whatever it is. Pam? Yeah. Right. Mm. What are you doing? Found a bickie haven't you? We need to put your name down. Even if that wasn't a A proper conversation. a grunt. Two, three, two. So I'll see you next week. Yeah. In the evening. And, I wish a lot Just that I caught it as I moved my finger. Yeah, well you sh I'll leave you just to Yeah. do it. Be able to . put it away. Won't we? Right. I hope to be I'll put these in here. Right. Where do you want these put? I'll put them somewhere. Dad. I'll put these away, and I'll have to somewhere that won't be a problem. . That'll do. Now Goodbye then Marcus! Bye bye! Oh! There. Come on. I'll see you in a week then. Right, okay. Bye! Bye! Bye. Bye! Oh! Come on! Marcus! Come on sweetie. Go on. Good boy. That's a good boy. Hey! What have you got? Stop playing with that phone again! You're a pain you! You do it every time ! Aye! They do, when I'm trying to do summat. It's a nice doggy int it? Ah! Ah! brushing or summat. Eh? Want brushing or summat. Want brushing and washing. I'll have to get some warm soapy water over it. It's the only thing I can think of to do it. It's got odd ears as well. What does it say on be a label on it somewhere Ah! Give it to me! He'll even play with it. Oh! Fully washable. Ow! Ow! Pure poly-foam ! It's thirty six . In other words he needs to go to launderette. Fully washable. We'd have to He'd be better dry cleaned wouldn't he? Ah! Well you're gonna dry clean him! Won't go in a bloody washer! Eh? Gotta do it by hand. Gonna take ages just to do this! Stick him in a bath. Oh! That's an idea. Put shampoo on him. It'll take Whee! I'll have to Ah! do that tonight, cos it'll take it all week to dry! Woo! and dried it. Oh. I must just try with warm water and see how it goes. Eh! The ribbon'll want washing. It's all sticky! Well you don't sit on him Marcus! Going to give doggy a wash? Eh? Have we? Yeah. Got to give doggy a wash? I'll get some, we'll get some water then and we'll give him a wash. Not you, you little squirt! Now you keep out. Don't touch! Bloody filthy is this dog! I'll tip over the don't, get your handies out of that water! No! We've got to clean this up for you for the weekend. Haven't we? Clean it up and then you take him in the . Mm! Yeah! Doggy! Yeah. .No, don't do that! Good boy. No! Coming off reasonably well, is the muck on this. Mm. Doesn't have to be completely spotless does it? Eh! Handies out! He might get to do it anyway. Eh? Have to get a bit of dirt anyway. Yeah. Well some of it, you can't tell whether it's dust or it's the colouring. Have you used that? Go and give that back to daddy. No, don't do that while we're washing him he'll be wet. Won't he? He'll be wet. No! Ah ah! Don't do that. Good boy. Wash his nose and . Wash round his ears. There. Anyway, well that's his head done. At least his head looks a bit cleaner. Paws are filthy. At least cleaning this stuff . What? Fetching it up reasonably well. It was filthy. And we've done his head. Mm mm. Eh? Mm. Everybody says owt about the , whatever it is. Say, it was filthy! Look what she said about the, er,? . Said the first time she came round she didn't look at it, and then, after that she looked really I hope she doesn't fall. Hold tight. Dizzy! I feel dizzy, my head is spinning . Ha!were doing that. He's lost his . Have you got his shoes? Somebody's going up to bed shortly. Come here!to me. Come on! Ah. Put your head down. Oh! I heard that then. That, was it his arm? It's hurt him whatever it was. Well it bloody hurts now! Urgh! Urgh! Urgh! Urgh! Urgh! Urgh! Urgh! Urgh! Ha ha ha ha ha! But I don't know if, I think he wants to go in . Well watch his neck more than anything. Right. Put your head down. Put your head down. Right Paul. That's it. Watch his arm! Cos that's what no leave him, I think he wants to go to sleep. Watch his neck! Eh? Right. that way. Ah! Have you been proper poorly? Eh? How's Paul, alright? He's alright, yeah. And how, oh, fully recovered now? Well, she took, sort of Friday. And I start waiting, I've gotta wait for a report for that Wednesday. What a shame! You'll have to Friday. keep her warm. They're not I know. gonna keep . Friday, he terrified me!, even liquid everything came back up! Poor little I thought great! He's looks a bit, he looks alright now though. Oh , he's alright now. But keep him warm, it's Yeah. bitter! Well my mate's little one's started with it now. Well you be careful you don't get it. I hope I could have done with that Here we go. There we go. There we go! Don't have that, have that dungy on there. Have that one on your chair. Take it off this time. There we are . Got that little bit sorted out now hasn't it? Eh? Some meat for daddy tea. Come on then, the pair of you. Whoops-a-daisy! What you doing? Put it down, it's dirty! Thank you. No, don't do that with it. Come on. Come on, let's take your coat off and then you can have your jam tart. Oh! Let's get this coaties off. And your hat. Eh? Yes! Ooh! Ooh! It's come of again. Have you got a dirty nappy? And who have been to see? To see Jade? Jade! Jade! Jade! Yeah. She's poorly now int she? Jadey! Jade's poorly. Jade's poorly. Yeah, she's, er at, she's a big girl now, she's nearly two! Ee! Nearly two. And if you're a good boy you're going to Jade's party. Jade! You've got to be a Party! good yeah! Jadey! Stand up. Jade! Jade, yeah. Jade! Jade's party if you're a good boy. Jadey! Jadey's party, if you're a good boy. Jade! Mm! Jade! Jade! Jade! Yeah. Jade . Jade! Jade! D'ya want your slippers on? Mum. Get some new shoes for party won't we? Show your daddy. Daddy. Say, if you're a good boy. Daddy. You're going to get an invitation to Jadey's party. Won't we? I told Aunty Sharon you have to be a good boy though. Haven't we? No! Don't touch yet. Wait! Eh! No, that one's yours, but you've got to wait. Let's put your pram away first. Yes, in a minute! Cakey! Cakey. Cakey! But let's put your pram away. , let's put your pram away first. Will you pick dungy up off the floor. Get your dungy off the floor. You've got to start being a good boy now. Whoops! Yeah. Come on. Come in here. Come on! In you go. Ee ee ee ee ee ee! Come on. In your chair with your bib. Come on. No, not that one, that way. Come here. Oi! In your chair first. Come on, and then mummy'll get your cakey. There's a good boy. Hiya. It's been a funny week. And loosing somebody as well. Yeah Tiger. Want your bear back? He's always wanting. Cheerio then See you. your bear back still gotta a little bit of chocolate left haven't you? Have you? Don't get cold. Want it on? No. You're gonna carry it? Hi Chris. Hi Been a bit better afternoon. Mhm. There you've got your arms full. Haven't you aye? Friday tomorrow thank the lord. There there now. Mighty frayed isn't he? Yeah. Cos I'm going shopping now. Oh dear. Come on then. Bye bye Say your ta-tas. Say your ta-ta to Matthew. Ta-ta. What? Where? That. It's the microphone. I'm doing a thing for the erm what is it the English language research laboratories. Ah what's that ? I've gotta carry this around with us and record me conversations with different people. You're not recording me I hope. I am You can't do it you haven't had asked my permission. Hasn't he now. There that's dad. I'll box his lugs won't I? Gonna give us a kiss then? Give Rosie a kiss and say ta-ta. Kyle. Come here. Say sorry. Hey. Say sorry. I'll get his coat. You've hurt Matthew say sorry. Do want smacked? Did he hit you He never gets smacked does he? Say sorry. What a defiant little You gonna give us a kiss there now? Kyle. He doesn't deserve one. Say sorry. You give us a kiss. Give us a kiss. Right you'll be put to bed without any supper tonight. You've had it now. Straight to bed I just put him to bed now. Mhm. Go and get his pyjamas and I'll Come on then come and get your pyjamas on. No bath straight to bed . You're going straight to bed. Bye bye Kyle. Ta-ta then. Get your coat I'll give it your dad. Bye Matthew. Say bye bye. Bye. Ta-ta. Ah Matthew's not your friend now. Is he now? I don't thing anybody will be if he keeps going on like that. Aye. I did You did. Good lad. Clever lad. So I'll see you next week. Mhm. Keep out of trouble. Some chance. Thanks a lot then Rose ta-ta. Give me a piece of that chocolate Kyle. I'm that chocolate. Well give me some please. I've eaten it. All of it? No. Well give me some then. I'm going to. You'd better. You'd better. I've set it look. Mm? I've set it look. Get off. What's it? Don't touch it. What is it? I'll show you it after. I'll show you after. You won't. I will. You won't. Don't. I'll smack you. I'll smack you. Go and ask mummy if she wants any tea. Go and ask her. Do you want some tea? No. Why? At Rosie's. What did you have? ice-cream. Soup and ice-cream. Yes. Not together. Did you have soup first? Yes. Then what ? Then I had ice-cream. Dad? What's here? Have a look. Is it ? No you can't have it. No. It has to stay there. Don't. I want it. I want it. I want it. You can't have it. These are Matthew's. No. Has Matthew got one? Yes. Has he? I want it. No you can have it when you get a bit older you'll get one. Don't do that Kyle. I want it. You can't have it. I just want it. I want this . Where's it gone? At the door and listen. It's not there. I want it Chris. What's the matter now? Come on. What's this? What's that up there?what is it?, this is a card from Aunty Katrina Kyle Look aha is it yours? she sent it to me and you and daddy me and you What's todays date? seventh, can tell daddy what she's got in her garden what? what you got in her garden, in a cage?, Murphy the what?what you got?what you got? you've got Katrina what you've got in your garden you got Murphy the monkey got got Murphy the monkey liar you're older than me I thirty three that's right and I feel awful thirty three going on thirty four? aye, feeling fifty four need a wee, wee? aye, he's been as dry as a bone no what did you have to eat at ? I don't know you don't know I don't know er beans spaghetti yuck er no, sausage beans and sausage beans beans and sausage, did you have some toast with it? no I didn't have some toast did you have anything did you have a pudding? no I had a drink of juice you had a drink of juice, he's not well you know no he's not he'll be a little bit dehydrated if he's got the runs how old are you, twenty eight? twenty seven can I have a kiss, I've never had one kiss today since I've come home what's that mean? can I have as kiss as well no I've got nail we know you've got nail varnish on you can't put it on any more cos only little poofters wear nail varnish, do they? yeah which one's mine Louise? that's the one nearest to you I was well you shouldn't you should use your own, that's Beth's, you wouldn't like it if Beth pinched yours would you?eh? ooh , you scratched mummy last night, look there there you did half five this morning, well he wasn't very well not with the cup be careful now what have you got daddy? coffee oh yeah I want football in the garden. do ya? yeah what time do you start today half past eight, right, by the time I and pick up do you like working no I hate it nobody seems to like it oh that's bloody bone idle that, that's not lazy To be honest I'd rather be there for going out in the morning and aye who sent him home from school? well, she friend in the morning, so she goes to our friends so she's there for about twenty minutes before they mm, mm and then she goes to me mother sometimes where's Lucy? Lucy's at her grandma's mm, yes she is yes she is so I take her grandma's mm, mm grandma's sometimes don't ya? yeah unclear his dinner Kyle likes puddings don't ya? shall we go and watch mummy play badminton? yeah yeah and that's your badminton that one's for me is it? yeah marvellous well I suppose I'll make some tea what got in there? what do you think I should have for tea Kyle?eh? that language thing . No. now. How many tapes have you got to do then? Well as many as you can, she left us twenty. And I'm only onto the fourth 'un. It's ganning back in the morning. What do you get for that then? Twenty five pound. . . aye. . . I've been onto them there this morning . I've been waiting for it coming through you know. Well I got a letter on the nineteenth of March, it'll be here within three weeks. I think it said twenty one days . Twenty one days is up and that burk keeping the money off till I get paid. You see he's been paying us certificates been you know. Yeah. er er so what he's done, he's kept that money back to cover his self in case the tax say like they want twenty five percent. Aye. So I've been onto the bastards today and I said like twenty one days is up and I've I've got like twelve hundred pound you know. Oh he says, er computer where it all get processed you know, your card and that gets made. Mhm. It's been shut down for a fortnight, it's all getting modernized and all that, upgraded. Aye. I says, well it's fucking nice to know like. Why you send us the fucking letter saying it'll be there. I've kept this note you know. You see he's got like a letter off the tax, they're wanting the twenty five percent. He saying, well if you just hang on a you know, a week or so have your certificate. Aye. Aye they're fucking cunts. They they're sharp enough to get their money off you though. Got some . Could you . . Aye. . Where's Bill? He's not here yet. . Is he not up at the like. . Uh?. They're supposed to be coming this week but there's nae sign of them yet. You need them do you? Aye. . . riding down then. Huh? who are you riding down? but big tits. Aye. Yorkers? Oh you wanna see them . Eh erm, when you slap her tits at quarter to three are they still swinging at quarter to six? . Erm do you know what I'm supposed to be doing?fucking researching and that lot. all last week , comes the fucking nice weather and he puts you in the loft. . . He's not gonna change now, he's always done it with the lofts first man. Erm ganning in the er loft. I've gotta gan pick some stuff and Oh aye. . Aye he's gone to the . He's going today ? I heard the was he was there yesterday. . Three foot down? Aye. Must be doing to the bottom of the foundation. I'll tell you what it is, I'm not doing it now. Nae way are we doing it now when we we've got the scaffolding up to gan up. Aye. Fancy fuck. We've gotta dig right down to the bottom of the to like put the the damp proof membrane. Aye. Aye. And then what? Put the put that like er bitumen on? Oh the black stuff. Where've I gotta put that?. . . By rights they should put a bloody one of them drain things around shouldn't they? Aye. Aye . Stops the holes in lets the water rain in. That's what they should do like. Oh you'll enjoy yourselves . might get it finished by Christmas. That'll be done by hand then won't it. them little diggers have you seen them? . Aye. . try to get that lad who was up at with a machine. Who Malcolm? get a job at er Oxford. What it was it was an old bus station. I put a multistorey car park on it. A fucking big Asda store you know. .all weekend Aye terrible one for the drink you know. She like woke up Monday morning, she there was four empty vodka bottles . She was in the cab with the machine . Two telephone boxes you know, next door to each other. The job had just kicked off so the blokes used to just the phone inside you know if they wanted . he went straight through the fucking two of the two er telephone boxes. But all the job fucking shooted off you know . Class dismissed. Head sends children home because of teacher shortage. No surrender. Surrounded by a sea of mud, a mother and her handicapped son refuse to move. And local hero. Home grown success at Cheltenham Parents are protesting at a headmaster's decision to send home an entire class because there's no-one to teach them. The children will have no . The education authority says there's a national shortage of teachers, but the parents say their youngsters' education is suffering. The class has been without a regular teacher for eight weeks and now parents are demanding extra help. Kim Barnes reports. Parents of fourth years at Falconhurst school reacted angrily at being told to keep their children at home today and tomorrow. They say it's the final straw in a two month saga of staff sickness and lack of supply teachers which has meant vital gaps in their children's schooling. I'm very disillusioned with the whole thing now and I just think that things are going from bad to worse. This is not going to disappear overnight, it's going to affect her for a long time, and she's never going to catch up on the work that she's missed over the last couple of months by having seven teachers in six weeks. We're told that he's not falling behind or there's no real problem with it. We know there is. As parents we see the change in our children. They no longer want to go to school. The class teacher has been off ill since mid-January. The education authority say they've tried everything and it's a national problem. Well, the crisis has arisen because we have both locally and nationally a shortage of teachers, both permanent teachers and supply teachers. Isn't is rather a drastic response to send children home? Yes, this is done as a last resort. So today it was lessons at home for some of the class provided by parents who'd had to take time off work. It isn't so much the two days that they've had off, this is just the last straw that breaks the camel's back really. It's the last three or four months erm the lack of education they've had over that time. Because they've been split between school, between young classes, my daughter's been in with the eight year olds. Do you think she's falling behind? Yes. I think she must be. I mean the statement made today was that they're not falling behind but that they're not progressing. But to me that has got to be the same thing. If I took her out of school I would be prosecuted, I'm sure. I have thought about it. But they can send a letter home sending her home. You know. Just out of the blue. And not teaching her. Isn't the education authority failing in its duty though, when it has to send children home? It's certainly our responsibility to provide education, but this is an issue of shortage of teachers, and so we're faced with that major problem. The education authority says they've launched a major recruitment drive but with the children due to start secondary school in September parents are now writing to local councils and M Ps. Some say they'll take over the children's education completely as they try to help their youngsters make up for lost time. A woman in her thirties has been found dead at her home after a man walked into a police station and said he wanted to talk to detectives. The body was discovered when police broke into the house. Tim Hurst reports. The body was found in a terraced cottage in Cheltenham shortly before lunch time. Number 21 The Burgage is the home of Mr David Schofield and his wife Caroline. The dead woman has been identified as Mrs Schofield, a self-employed fabric designer who worked from home and who was in her thirties. The Burgage is close to Cheltenham race course and race goers heading for the first day of the Cheltenham Gold Cup meeting were diverted away from the murder house. Neighbours say the couple kept themselves very much to themselves. I only know that he is a very kind and gentle person. I didn't know her at all, other than to see her go into the house and out of the house. Relatives of the family who live nearby were escorted to the house by detectives before Mrs Schofield's body was taken to Cheltenham mortuary for a post-mortem examination by a home office pathologist. Before the police receive an interim report from the pathologist, they're not even sure exactly how Mrs Schofield died. Apparently there are no obvious signs of injury. The body was found after a man walked into a London police station this morning and made a statement. It's understood that his name is also Schofield, and he's being taken to Cheltenham for further questioning. Gloucester city council meets tonight to decide on the fate of it's controversial plans to raise council house rents by 45 per cent and to close Gloucester law centre. Protesters have been out in force as the council makes its second attempt to set its annual budget. The first meeting at the end of February was abandoned on a point of order. Since then the Conservatives have lost control of the council because of the election Dr Patrick Lush, a Democrat, to the Westgate ward. The balance of power on Gloucester City Council is held by a former Tory councillor who now votes as an independent. A hunt has begun for a bogus policeman who followed a driver along the A 413 near Wendover in Buckinghamshire. The driver became suspicious when the man, dressed in a dark uniform approached him and asked him if he'd been drinking. The driver stayed in his car and the bogus policeman eventually drove off. Thames valley police are cracking down on bad driving. Last year there were nearly eight and a half thousand road accidents in Oxfordshire. Two hundred and eleven people died. The police believe we drive too fast and at a special motor racing exhibition later this week they'll be demonstrating how to handle modern, high performance cars. This report from Cathy Alexander. If this has ever happened to you then Thames police are offering a golden opportunity to improve your driving. Their top instructors are holding a one day campaign to sharpen up the County's road sense. The road is sweeping round to the right and there's the start of the dual carriage way. Just hold in third gear in anticipation of an overtake on the vehicles in front. Waiting for the hatchings to finish, checking the mirror, the vehicles are some way behind now. Just closing a little bit on the vehicle in front, waiting for these hatchings to finish then gently accelerating through after checking in the mirror again. That was police instructor Sean Corty demonstrating one hundred percent road concentration. People don't follow through on what they can see, erm and what erm might be there. We must expect there to be danger in every obscured section of road. After all, we're certainly not driving erm any better than we used erm and possibly worse. He lays much of the blame on technology. Today's sophisticated motor vehicles need special handling, otherwise they can, and do, run away with their drivers. They have four-wheel drive, they have anti-lock brakes, they have power steering. They may be front wheel drive, they may be rear wheel drive. But the average driving school car, the average car that the person learns to drive in has none of these things at all. And we feel that people do need to be trained in these erm cars which have these erm special erm adaptations. So, Thames police are sharing their skills with the public. This Thursday evening at Exeter Hall in Kidlington, visitors will be able to go out on a demonstration with top traffic patrol drivers, and have their driving skills assessed by an advanced instructor. They can also have a go at this. Ideally, all drivers should know how to handle a skidding car. Take a lesson from the experts. An elderly woman and her son are living in squalor, surrounded by a sea of mud, because a council can't rehouse them. The woman has turned down the offer of a caravan, and an attempt to buy her a seventy thousand pound house has been stopped by a public outcry. This report from Simon Harris. Amelia Davis, born into a gipsy family, has known hard times before but never quite like this. At the age of seventy five she has to wade through a sea of mud to get to her council home at Cinderford in Gloucestershire. The bungalow is literally sitting in the path of progress, surrounded by redevelopment and waiting to be bulldozed. Conditions are appalling. The rooms are damp, even the carpets are soaked. I don't like it at all. Its modernization, those are the motives,it wouldn't be much of a life. Mrs Davis shares the misery of life in the bungalow with her thirty eight year old son Peter. They've encountered problems before. They once lived on a housing estate, but the council was forced to move them to the isolated bungalow after complaints from neighbours. When the builders moved in, the authority found another house, and was ready to buy it for seventy thousand pounds, but again there were protests and the plan was scrapped. I, I don't think anyone's instance. Mrs Davis seems to be caught up in this in this situation. You know, its, I feel very sorry for her. The council, you say, has done everything it can. Yes, we would like to do more, I mean, we would be prepared, and the money is available. The latest plan was to provide a temporary mobile home but Mrs Davis has refused to return to caravan life. It will bring all the memories back, you know, of when my husband was alive. When I had a caravan and he was alive we was living in woods. For the moment, Mrs Davis appears to be trapped in her decaying home, surrounded by builders. The council says it's tried everything but so far has been unable to grant the old lady her wish. They keep saying they're going to find me a house and say they're going to buy me one. And now they've changed their mind and want to put me in a caravan. Well that's not right. Well if I could have a bungalow the same as I' ve got now I wouldn't care. I'd be happy in a bungalow I be happy now. It's Cheltenham Gold Cup week, the highlight of the national hunt racing calendar. Our reporter Tim Musson is at Cheltenham with all the news of today's racing and doubtless some tips for tomorrow. Welcome to Cheltenham on the first day of the national hunt festival. You know when racing folk talk of the festival they describe it as three days of magic and madness, glory or grief. We'll be taking a look around the scene here in a few moments, but first let's see how the people and town of Cheltenham prepares for the biggest invasion of the year. Martin Dawes reports. Well it's Tuesday the fourteenth and the start of Cheltenham's three day hunt festival and just in case you hadn't heard, you can keep up to date with all of the latest racing news and results here on Severn Sound. Top trainer Martin Pipe will be fielding eighteen horses with champion jockey the Cotswolds' Peter Scudamore saddling two of them. Cheltenham prepares for its festival like a bride. It's a Cotswold marriage between sport and money where the organist flips and plays an Irish jig. It's a firm favourite with the racing set. A good place to be seen. Make sure you're noticed. The gathering hoards are a headache for the police. There's pick pockets about and thousands of cars. When you put those eleven thousand vehicles with the fourteen thousand or so vehicles that travel the roads around this course every day, that is a difficult problem. erm the roads are really not, not made to cope and so we have to try to get people coming in from different areas and different directions so that we don't get everybody on one road and nobody on another. Bet you wish they'd come earlier. I wish they would, yes. If only they would come an hour earlier, and erm spend erm a pleasant time in their cars erm on the car park having a picnic before they go in, they would save themselves an awful lot of, of, of hassle. Cheltenham festival is loved by the Irish. At their traditional headquarters for the duration, the going is already getting heavy. I'd sooner come to Cheltenham than to go to a holiday abroad. I mean, I think it's a fantastic meeting. We meet great people. English, Irish, Scots, Welsh, it doesn't matter. Come down here, we have a good time. We all mix up together, and we've erm, it's a fantastic meeting. Well basically it's the people, like we get on so well with the English over here and as they say back home the . The beer is cheaper, and erm the women are pretty over here as well. I hope the wife isn't watching tonight. Cheers. Each year it seems to get busier and busier. I'm not quite sure where the people come from, and where we're going to put them. What kind of people actually come? Are they your usual clientele? No, slightly different. I think one thinks of Cheltenham as refined ladies drinking tea and retired colonels. These are professional punters and professional drinkers. In that order I think. The crowds are here, the atmosphere's good. The only question-mark now is the weather. Today all roads have led to Cheltenham. Forty thousand people, eleven thousand cars and nearly five hundred coaches have piled in here to Prestbury. The first race was off at two fifteen but on race day Cheltenham is up and running at first light. The Irish have been so busy praying for the winners that they must have forgotten to ask for the right weather. At dawn it was grey clouds and rain over the racecourse, but there was no lie-in for the true racing fan. They huddled together on the gallops to watch and assess today's runners. Finding a winner is a science. Binoculars and the latest form forecast are compulsory. The first to rise on the racecourse were the chefs. The ovens were lit at five o'clock. Thirteen thousand meals take some cooking. On the menu are cold salmon, roast fillet of beef with béarnaise sauce, erm supreme of chicken with a crab and lobster sauce, things like that. Cheltenham has to cater for everyone from burger to banquet. This year eight tons of prime beef, four tons of fresh salmon and four tons of fresh strawberries will be gobbled up. To wash it down, fifteen thousand bottles of champagne, twenty five thousand bottles of wine, and a quarter of a million pints of beer. Whatever the weather Cheltenham always looks good. The local nurseryman was finishing off as most started their day. Ten thousand flowers and a hundred trees have grown overnight. The wintry weather rather spoiled the opening day's fashion parade. Too cold for frills and fancy dresses, more a time for furs. As race time approached, people poured in. The cars queued but the helicopters beat the jams. On budget day and in pouring rain, nobody had the blues, not even the bookies, as the favourites fell. The chance for a local winner came in the second race, the Arkle Challenge Trophy. David Nicholson from Condicote near Stow-on-the-Wold was saddling Waterloo Boy, with another local man, Richard Dunwoody in the driving seat. The race turned out to be a battle between Peter Scudamore on and Waterloo Boy, number thirteen. It was lucky for some as Dunwoody squeezed home a twenty to one winner. It was cheers all round in the winners' enclosure and for Nicholson, the man they call the Duke, it was time to feel like a king. Unbelievable, I mean I've always looked upon the horse as a nice horse not as the winner of an Arkle. And he did it the right way, he did it the hard way, always in the first two, always having a cut at and jump, jump, jump, you know. And some celebrations tonight? I always go berserk. You do anyway but we shall. In the big race, the champion hurdle, the favourite,was well beaten. The winner, a fifty to one outsider, Beech Road. One horse that stands proud and wins year in year out is old Arkle here. I wonder whether any of today's winners will ever be as famous. Tomorrow the highlight and the big race is the Queen Mother Champion Steeplechase. Her Majesty will be here to watch and present the trophy. Who will win? Why not join us again here at the Cheltenham festival on Central South tomorrow. Now, we continue our reports from John Kane and the army in Northern Ireland with the padre's tale. Not every regiment can boast having a padre. The Gloucesters are lucky. And the Reverend Steve Parcell is with them for their tour in Northern Ireland. Captain Parcell hasn't always been in the army. He used to be a vicar in Bournemouth and before he got the call he was a salesman. Eleven o'clock on a Sunday morning and the Reverend Steve Parcell is tending to his flock. as we look for his coming in glory, we celebrate with this bread and this cup his one perfect sacrifice. Accept Steve Parcell might look like any other vicar but to the Gloucesters he's Captain Parcell and a man of the cloth. I'm the padre chaplain with the Gloucesters here in Ballykelly. How can a man of the cloth equate being a padre with the army? I think very easily. I think that the first thing that one would have to say is that we work for the Ministry of Defence, and not the Ministry of War and therefore we are about defence, we're about the maintenance of peace, erm this you know maintaining of justice etc etc. If anything it's very easy for a padre to slip into that slot. He's a man that anyone can talk to. The soldiers can talk to. He's not directly in the chain of command. I mean, obviously we pride ourselves as officers on our man management. But on the other hand, a soldier wants someone who he can talk to in complete confidence and I think the padre fulfils this sort of, if you like, avuncular, presence in the battalion. My main job as I see it is that I'm the exactly the same as a vicar in a civilian parish. My job is for the spiritual welfare of the people in my charge. Let us therefore confess our sins in penitence and faith, firmly resolved to keep God's commandments and to live in love and peace with all men. The padre believes in getting about to see his flock. Today he's hitched a ride in a Wessex helicopter with a group of soldiers who are doing random vehicle checks. The padre goes with them as they leap out into a very boggy field. So, as he's an officer, does he carry weapons? Not at all, no padre in the British army is allowed to carry arms by the Geneva convention. So when a chaplain goes to war as he did for example in the Falklands, he goes with his men erm and he's erm not armed at all. The sea crashing on to the rocks by the Giant's Causeway is the only similarity for Steve Parcell with his last parish, Bournemouth. Striding over this beautiful coastline, it's hard to believe that Belfast and its atrocities is just an hour's drive away. So, can the padre of the Gloucesters offer any explanation why some of the Irish are hell bent in wanting to shatter the tranquillity of this land? Well of course that's not quite true. Most Irishmen are very proud of what they have here, of the Giant's Causeway and all along the Irish coastline. It's a very small minority of people who just feel they want to inflict their political will upon others. And how can you as a Christian perhaps forgive them? I think forgiveness is extremely difficult and I think you have to have something done against you to be able to forgive. I would find it extremely difficult to forgive somebody who killed deliberately a member of my family. The vast majority of people here, Catholics and Protestants, want to live together side by side. There are a lot of religious people in Ireland but there aren't perhaps so many Christians. Tomorrow night we bring you the army wife's tale. Now, if you were out and about at about ten o'clock last night you may have seen a greenish glow in the sky. And you probably wondered what was on fire or were the spaceship had landed. But it wasn't anything calamitous or extra-terrestrial. It was actually the Northern Lights. Scientifically known as the aurora borealis, the lights, as their name suggests are normally only seen in very northern areas. The photographs which show them at their most dramatic were taken in Alaska. Well, Dr Jim Crawford, you've written a thesis on the subject of the Northern Lights. Is it very unusual to see them down here? This far south, yes. Very unusual. The display we've seen over the last night would have been quite average for Scotland and Northern Ireland but this far south in Oxford it was quite spectacular. Why did it happen? Well, the aurora's caused when particles from the sun interact with the magnetic field of the earth and are deposited into the atmosphere and they bombard the atmospheric gases and cause them to glow. So for experts like you, is it something you could have expected last night? erm for people who are getting information from various centres, yes, they would have known erm quite a long time in advance. But for the man in the street of course or anything doesn't give you any such a look ahead information. Well now, you're an expert, on the Northern Lights, but you live in Oxford. How often have you actually seen them yourself. Well, I always look north on a dark night and I think that twice in the last twelve years. And this was a good example? This was and excellent example. Well now, a lot of people will have missed them and heard a lot about them today, is there any chance at all that they'll appear again tonight? Well it's raining tonight, but if they keep a good look out over the next year, because the sun's particularly active now, then they may get a chance of seeing another display. Right, but that that may have been a once in a lifetime thing. Those who saw it were very lucky. Thank you very much indeed. Well, there's little chance of a sight of the Northern Lights again tonight because there's a lot of cloud about. When we run the satellite sequence, you can see all the cloud that moved in from the west overnight and the good news is that the back edge is not too far away. So, that cloud will move out of the way but yet another lump of thick cloud is just appearing on the left of the screen to pose more problems for tomorrow. This evening's heavy rain will clear away with the winds dying but it will stay pretty cloudy with the odd shower. Not too cold though, with the temperature down to four or five Celsius, that's about forty Fahrenheit. Still plenty of cloud tomorrow morning, with a chance of a shower but a little bit of sunshine. There'll be thicker cloud moving in from the south west. And that looks like bringing rain along for the afternoon. There won't be much wind but it will be cool with a temperature near eight Celsius, forty six Fahrenheit, and possibly cold enough for some sleet on the Cotswolds. Well, the Chancellor's budget was fairly low-key in general but there were significant changes aimed at helping the labour shortage in the region. Yesterday on Central News we met Graham Cooper, the managing director of a major printing company in Wantage, and one of the employees, Vic Marshall. Well, today's budget means that Graham will be around six pounds a month better off. Vic, however, will be better off by about twenty pounds a month. With me now to discuss what the budget means for more people in our area is Paul Sampson from Deloitt Hawkins and Sells. Paul, erm, are there any specific advantages to this sort of area? Well, as you said, the area got problems with labour, shortages of labour and the Chancellor has done something to help that. In particular he's helped with the National Insurance and what we can the income trap or poverty trap. At the lower end of the scale for unskilled labour there is now an incentive for those people to do more part-time work. Also pensioners, there's now more of an incentive for them to come back on to the labour market. So, that's at the unskilled end. At the skilled end, people who have more experience, he's done a lot to help erm companies give shares to their employees and companies that are prepared to be innovative erm there's quite a lot in this erm for them. Mr Sampson, thank you very much indeed. okay. And if you've just come in, here are the main headlines from the budget. The basic and forty percent income tax rates remain unchanged. Road taxes for car drivers are also unchanged. But the tax on company cars goes up by a third. Corporation tax remains unchanged at thirty five percent. Unleaded petrol will be fourteen pence cheaper per gallon than leaded. The tax on two and three star petrol comes into line with four star. There will be no change in taxes on cigarettes and alcohol. Income tax thresholds and allowances go up by six point eight per cent. The single person's allowance goes up by a hundred and eighty pounds. The married man's goes up by two hundred and eighty pounds. Age allowances go up taking sixteen thousand senior citizens out of the tax bracket altogether. Duty on life assurance policies is to abolished from the beginning of next year. And that's it. Well leave you now to go home, or stay at home and sort that all out for yourself and try and work out how it affects you. That's all from us. We'll be back tomorrow of course with more news from Cheltenham Gold Cup and with our second, third report from John Kane in Ireland. Goodnight. Goodnight. Licence to sell. Rover's big drive to convert sterling to dollars. A mother's campaign to prevent more road accident. And a fence too high. An MP is judged to be over the limit Good evening. The Rover car group which employs more than twelve thousand people in the Central South region, has announced its best results in ten years. But the company said tonight there'd be no reprieve for Cowley's South Works. It's still due to close in the nineteen nineties. The company, which is now owned by British Aerospace has made a spectacular recovery from the heavy losses of the mid-eighties to announce pre-tax profits of sixty five million pounds last year. That's a rise of two hundred and thirty three percent of the nineteen eighty six figure. This report from Kim Barnes. The Rover Group's success, largely due to the high-tech Cowley-made Rover has contributed to heavy profits for its new parent, British Aerospace. The astonishing pre-tax profit of sixty five million pounds is the best in ten years. The Group says, production, home sales and exports have all been outstanding for Austin Rover and Landrover vehicles. They've now got the quality right, they've got good models and it' a very good sales and marketing strategy. I mean if you go round the motorways, every other car is a Rover car. So, it's all coming good. World-wide sales are dramatically up at five hundred and twenty five thousand units, the highest in ten years. At their lowest in nineteen eighty one sales dropped to four hundred and thirty five thousand. The Group says the results are due to better business strategies over the last three years, new models, better use of plant and good labour relations. But the plan announced last year to close the South Works at Cowley in the nineteen nineties will not be withdrawn. In the light of this, reaction at the plant to today's figures was mixed. I don't think anybody's taking much notice of it. disgraceful. It just a joke. It's much more improved. Obviously you've look as though you've got more of a future, hopefully. But parents, British Aerospace, say no change of heart. The new technology requires less space really. And as a result of that we really have got overcapacity which we've declared publicly so, you know, we're not saying anything different today than what we said when we first purchased the business in July and August. It doesn't seem at this moment in time that a reprieve is really on the cards. The South Works employs fifteen hundred. The company said today that the number of redundancies isn't yet known. The successful Rover eight hundred range will be made at Cowley's North Works. Meanwhile, hopes are high that plants at Cowley and Swindon will benefit from links with Honda which the company says it will build on. Part of the reason for the Rover Group's success is its record on exports. But far from resting on its laurels the company now plans to make major inroads in the American market. It's about to launch a Hollywood-style marketing campaign costing millions of pounds. Wesley Smith has been to the company's American headquarters to compile this special report. Austin Cars in North America are thirty million pounds into advertising over the next few month. They've even bought the rights to the James Bond theme for T V advertising. The company imported eight thousand nine hundred cars in the eight hundred range from Britain to the States last year. But they the Prestige Sterling as it's known over here could have been more successful. The Group brought in a new President at its Miami headquarter to coincide with a massive publicity launch. One thing really is erm absolutely essential is that you do have a consistent and uniform marketing plan. One of the problems that we've suffered from in the past was some level of inconsistency which we've now put to bed. We've researched our forward marketing platform over the last seven months. We've it, researched it and what we've found is that there is a niche for the best of British. The cars are built in Cowley and sell at up to fifteen thousand pounds each. They used to be marketed jointly by Rover and a company called Brayman who own sixty percent of Rover's American outfit. Rover bought Brayman's shares so that they could have total control. They claim their new car, launched this month, the eight two seven, is the answer to winning over the Americans who were unimpressed by problems with service and with getting spare parts for the original eight two five launched two years ago. The new car comes in a basic or super luxury version. There are also seven hundred and fifty limited edition cars. There are three hundred improvements on the old eight two five. They include a two point seven litre engine and a new transmission. Rover have faced very tough competition from other European manufacturers like B M W which can be seen for sale alongside the Sterling in some areas. There are also scores of other companies, especially American and Japanese who are pointing to the dollars. Basically, erm it is a very demanding market. It's very competitive. There's a lot of erm different manufacturers over here. Also, it's not just one market, essentially you have to treat it as fifty, fifty one markets. Each individual state requiring different things under state and federal law. The typical American buyer will live in an area which the advertising world calls the American smile which stretches from New York via Florida and Texas to California. The Sterlings are aimed at middle aged male high wage earners who are willing to pay for the status the British luxury car can bring. We've got to deliver the right product, a good quality product. And they're not forgiving from that point of view. It's got to be competitively priced, you've got to market it well and you've got to position it well, and then you've got to service it well. We've learned a few hard lessons in this market. It teaches you a lot of hard lessons but erm if you recognize those and build on them erm then you can succeed in this market place. A Gloucestershire man has appeared in court charged with murdering his wife. Thirty two year old Richard Schofield from Prestbury remained in silence throughout the short hearing at Cheltenham magistrates court. The prosecuting solicitor applied for Mr Schofield, described as a departmental manager, to be remanded in custody. No application was made for bail. Mr Schofield was arrested on Tuesday after walking into a police station in London. As a result of what he told the police, his wife Caroline's body was found in their home in The Burgage in Prestbury. She had been strangled. Schofield was remanded in custody until April the fourth. A woman has begun a lone traffic patrol in her village after her best friend was killed and her son badly injured. She's warning that more lives will be lost because cars and lorries are racing through the main street at up to eighty miles an hour. Simon Harris reports. Lesley Taylor isn't a natural protester. As a mother of two she has more than enough to do without standing around. But Lesley has seen two of her friends killed. Both lives claimed by the A 48 at Ulvington near Lidney in Gloucestershire. A main road where there are no street lights and no pedestrian crossing. Just a forty mile an hour speed limit. Well, I've been complaining about this for about three years now and the county council continues to think the forty mile an hour speed limit is perfectly alright. But as I said, they haven't lost anybody. Isn't forty miles okay? Yes, if they went forty miles an hour, but they don't. I mean they're going at seventy and eighty miles an hour. Hazel Guest was Lesley's best friend and the mother of five children. Now she's dead. Her husband John is still trying to come to terms with what happened three years ago. We were both crossing the road from the public house and erm had the wife by my side and I didn't see it What affect has it had on your family and your life. Lesley Taylor's son David is one of the luckier victims of the A 48. He survived being knocked over, but only just after fracturing his skull and breaking a leg. You're obviously more cautious than you were before, and erm a lot of kids now they tend to stand back for a while just in case 'cause you can never judge how fast they're really going to go through there. Lesley Taylor is prepared to brave any weather to make her point. With like at stake, she doesn't think it's asking too much for a reduced speed limit, crossing and street lights. So far Gloucester County Council has said it will investigate the points she makes. In the meantime she fears it won't be long before Ulvington is again in mourning. In one of the biggest about turns in city politics, six thousand council house tenants have been told that their rents won't after all be going up by forty five per cent, and their homes won't be sold to a private landlord. Tim Hurst reports. Gloucester City Council reversed its most radical decisions on council housing at a marathon session dominated by the casting vote of a solitary independent councillor. The Tories lost control of the council when they lost the by-election, and last night they lost their housing hopes. Rents will go up by almost ten percent instead of forty five, and houses themselves won't be sold to a housing association. I'm very pleased about it, definitely very pleased. I'm glad it's all, you know, we've won. we've finally won and got what we wanted. We can all just about afford ten percent, but not forty five percent. Would you have voted in favour of the sale of the house if you'd been given the chance. No, definitely not. We don't want our houses sold off, do we? We want council to keep them. And rents are going up terribly. People just can't afford it. It's a bit too much, forty five per cent. But you can manage just over nine percent? Yes. Just. The Conservative plans for housing were beaten by a coalition between Labour, Democrats and the independent who now has the casting vote on all council business. The Tories say they're philosophical but not angry. Anger doesn't get you anywhere in this world. erm disappointed, but as I said at the beginning it was almost inevitable, erm with the results of the Westgate by-election, which were very disappointing. erm I don't deny that for one moment. erm no doubt there'll be lots of inquests as to why and what and everything else but we did lose that and we lost it badly and from then onwards the outcome was pretty inevitable bearing in mind the erm views of the independent. Rates in Gloucester were due to fall under the Tories. Now they're going to be pegged at last year's level. No great hardship according to Labour. Quite clearly what it meant to the average rate payer was seven pound a year. That's what a rate reduction meant in real terms and that had to be weighed against the vicious cuts which were being posed in order to achieve it. Protesters at last night's meeting fighting to save the city's law centre were also successful. The centre's hundred and ten thousand pound grant will continue in spite of Tory opposition. Swindon's Conservative MP says he's feeling got a because planners on the local council have discovered his new garden fence doesn't have planning permission. Thamesdown council is Labour controlled. MP Simon Coombes says he's suspicious the issue's surfaced now seven months after the fence went up. Martin Dawes reports. The new fence is just eight centimetres higher than the previous one. That was rotten, now Mr Coombes feels there's something rotten about how it's been picked up by the planners. He's a Tory who's criticized Thamesdown council over its finances and about statues they've approved around the borough. He described them as quite unbelievably unattractive. Not wishing to come down on either side, the planners say it's a nice fence but high fences near roads need permission. We have a very record in Thamesdown of treating every application on its merits. And what we will do here is give a erm totally objective analysis of what the fence is. It is erm on a highway and we have to be very sensitive to the erm not treating anybody whether erm it be a member of parliament or a councillor in anyway which would not to the authorities. The MP says his suspicions are aroused because he's recently in the Commons criticised Thamesdown's finances. Is this a witch-hunt? Well it certainly isn't a witch-hunt. And I would think it's perhaps rather foolish of Mr Coombes to actually raise this issue. erm With regard to the finances of course that is a totally different issue and record on financing. Mr Coombes isn't at home but says if there's a technical breach he'll apply for permission. Thamesdown say there shouldn't be any problem. A fifty bed cottage hospital is under threat as G Ps have been told to spend more time in their surgeries. They say they may have to stop working at the hospital and it can't survive without them. Simon Harris reports. With a busy practice at his surgery at Stroud in Gloucestershire, Dr Gordon Horner finds himself working a fifty hour week. Not that he complains, most G Ps earn over thirty thousand pounds a year. But despite his workload he still manages to spend two afternoons a week at Stroud's cottage hospital. Without G Ps like Dr Horner, the fifty bed hospital would grind to a halt. It has no full time consultants and now the G Ps are warning they may be forced to give up the hospital work because the Department of Health is planning to put them all on new contracts from next year. The proposed new contract for general practice is trying to force general practitioners to spend far more time sitting in the surgery waiting to consult with patients. It would, for most G Ps, mean several more hours a week in the surgery and that time has to come from somewhere. In Stroud it has to come from hospital time. The role of the visiting G Ps at Stroud isn't underestimated by the full time staff. There are patients here looked after by their own G Ps especially on the medical side and of course they know their G Ps. The G Ps know them and their backgrounds and their relatives can come. But it's more than just a question of who the patients prefer to be treated by. If there aren't the doctors to run it, it's not much of a hospital. Stroud has a potential seventy thousand patients in its catchment area. If the hospital closed, most would have to travel to Gloucester. erm it's a terrible thing to do. ' these people that use it. Well it's very close to us, it's very convenient. It's a nice friendly hospital. erm James was born here and it's it's just very convenient. I just don't want it to close. Temporary classrooms are being built at two schools in Stroud for children who at the moment don't have a school. They'll provide places for nearly three hundred pupils whose classrooms were destroyed by fire. The first rooms are being installed at Green School. Others will go onto land at Primary School destroyed by fire last week. Two men are awaiting trial accused of arson. Elizabethan musicians and dancers have been taking to the streets to publicise a meeting between queens from the sixteenth and twentieth century this weekend. The Oxford story is a heritage project which tells the story of the University through the ages. Oxford's Lord Mayor, Queenie Warley will travel through time to meet Queen Elizabeth the First accompanied by the dancers and musicians. Now, Harwell laboratory is best known for its contribution to nuclear research but the scientist there have revealed a secret life. They're keen bird-watchers and their best sightings have been from the laboratory windows which overlook very special conservation areas. Nuclear physicist Mike Wilkins gets a breath of fresh air in his lunch hour and scans the tree tops for the latest arrivals. He's a keen bird watcher and can indulge his hobby anywhere on the seven hundred acre site. There are over three thousand mature trees within the five mile perimeter fence and they are literally the only trees for miles around. Large scale farming has ripped out hedges and woods to make way for arable crops, leaving Harwell as an oasis in the middle of the fields. I think it's rather an island in in the middle of the ermerm cultivated land so if you stand on top of the Ridgeway and look down you can see the Harwell site standing out as a a green treed area erm compared with the corn all round it. And how important is that for the birds of the area. I think it's very important. The largest rookery in Oxfordshire dominates a high security storage area, and owls are moving into nesting boxes around the sight. The perimeter fence keeps out predators and limits the spread of chemicals the farmers use on the surrounding area. Now Harwell has decided to help nature along with an active policy of land management for wildlife. Grass, which used to be mown, is left to revert to meadow, and native trees planted between the nuclear reactors and the accelerators. Growing schemes take account of the seeding of wild flowers. These rare bee orchids will look like this in the summer. Head groundsman Ted Neville has relished the challenge of working for wildlife. Well, we're gardeners obviously trained to provide a nice working environment. But erm along with that I'm a naturalist and erm the place is big enough, we can we have scope for leaving area to revert to nature, which we're tying to do. But while Harwell's bird-watching boffins revel in the habitat around them there's just one snag. Because it's a high security area, they're not allowed to use binoculars. Good thing there were no restrictions at Cheltenham race-course because today all roads have led to the race-course. There thousands of people have led into the gates of Prestbury Park. Joining us from there with the story of today's action is Tim Russell. Welcome to Cheltenham on day two of the national hunt festival. It takes a year to organize this grand event and it says something for the racecourse when the only thing that went wrong yesterday was the weather. Today I'm glad to say it's been dry and we've even seen the sun. Today we've had great racing again and first we're going to have a look again at the world away from the races. radio. You've found us on 1584 kilohertz that's 189 metres in the medium wave band. We're broadcasting to you between ten and twelve every day this week, Thursday erm being our final day of course. Gold Cup day tomorrow. erm today the feature race is the Queen Mother Champion chase at This is the other Cheltenham complete with its own radio station. Alongside the last jump stands the largest tented village for any annual sporting event in this country. The racing festival is now bigger business than Wimbledon or the Open golf championship. And here hospitality is the name of the game. You can dine in comfort and watch in luxury. The who's who of the business world is in town this week and many a deal will be struck between races. Chris Coley from Cheltenham is one of the main organizers of this part of the festival. The caterers told me yesterday that they've got thirty thousand people being wined and dined here in this tented village over the three days. And at nine thousand today with tomorrow being the big day. So tell me, how much does it cost somebody to come, a businessman to bring a party or On average the cost here would be, in this particular marquee, it's a hundred and ten pounds a head for a party for the three days, and that's exclusive of drink. Apart from the hospitality tent the festival has its own shopping arcade. What can you buy? All the kit you need for a day at the races. Hats are part of the uniform here. For the real enthusiast there's riding equipment and for those who are happier watching from the grandstand a pair of binoculars. A for those lucky ones that hit the jackpot at the festival there's plenty of goodies for him and her. There's quite a gala atmosphere at Cheltenham this year with one or two circus acts doing the rounds. The winner wins a lovely little mahogany table down there. No, I shan't be endeavouring to win it. sir? The arrival of the Queen Mother heralded the racing proper. And Her Majesty was in the parade ring to assess the runners and riders for the big race, the Queen Mother Champion Steeplechase. For Gloucester jockey Peter Scudamore a few moments of solitude and silence. Money was piling on for his mount . Could the champion jockey do it? In the first circuit he was leading the field and looking good. But as they came into the finish it was the seven to four favourite,, running home to victory. The best local winner of the day was former baker's roundsman Arthur Whiting from Dursley in Gloucestershire. His horse,Lad, won the first race. So, just one day to go but what a day. Tomorrow the glittering prize is on offer, the Cheltenham Tote Gold Cup. Can Desert Orchid the champion bring the house down and win. And can Gloucestershire champion jockey Peter Scudamore do it on ? Can the Condicote team of David Nicholson, Richard Dunwoody and last year's champion do it again? If you can't make it, join us for Central South tomorrow. Two hundred wives have gone to live in Northern Ireland to be with their husbands serving there with the Gloucestershire regiment. For the women it's not a pleasant posting. Certain areas of the province are out of bounds to service families because it's too risky. And their which are guarded round the clock. On day three of his reports from the province, John Kane tells the wife's tale. Being a soldier's wife here in Northern Ireland is definitely not glorious. The Gloucesters have brought with them over two hundred families and although they're not confined to barracks there's certain areas of the province which are definitely out of bounds. They live in an area which is heavily fortified, guarded by soldiers with armed weapons. For Sue Poole, whose husband Nick is a Sergeant, living here is somewhat different from the family's home town of Tewkesbury. She does her weekly shopping not in a huge supermarket but in the camp's NAAFI and in an effort to actually go out and meet people Sue has got herself a day job. Gloucesters, can I help you? erm Monday through to Friday, nine to five Basically we're a shop for the soldiers to buy erm clothing, any sort of items they need for everyday life in the army. Is it bad for the wives here. It is really yes. erm they feel isolated. erm they're frightened to go anywhere just in case something might happen. The Gloucesters are half way through their two year tour. Sometimes the soldiers can be away for up to five weeks at a time. Living in quite appalling cramped conditions often working up to eighteen hours day after day. So why did Sue and her three children come? I came to be with my husband. I didn't want two year's separation. But do you see him much? No. Most of the company wives don't see their husbands for about sixty five per cent of the year, which is actually a very long time when you're living in these sort of conditions. If they were living in England they could probably cope a lot better. But living here with all the dangers and the threat and everything else, it's very very hard for them. As two of the three Poole children return home from school, they pass the armed sentry, a grim reminder of the ever present threat of terrorism. But does their mother think they get a hard time at school from the locals? I think they do to a certain extent, but the teachers try and erm brush it away, they try and forget that they are soldiers' children and try and help them mix in with the civilian children. Is there rank in the wives? Yes. There is to a certain extent but it's, I think, I hope it's starting to die out now. I think there probably is, yes. I think it comes from below rather than from above. I think perhaps the younger wives feel she's a sergeant's wife, can I go and talk to her? Really? erm it certainly doesn't come from us. I mean would you have the C O's wife round for coffee? I would invite her. I don't know if she'd come, but I'd invite her. Have you been round there? No. I mean would you have a sergeant's wife round for coffee here? Yes, yes, quite happily. And I do. Would it be embarrassing for her if she invited you back? No, I don't think so. No, it certainly doesn't worry me, the rank structure at all. But I think it probably does worry some of the other wives. Well what all the wives do agree about living in their fortified compounds guarded round the clock is that the end of this tour can't come soon enough. Most are counting down the days. Tomorrow night the soldier's tale. Well, this morning's satellite picture shows clearly yesterday's nasty weather out there in the North Sea and as we run the sequence through the day you can see a lot of showers coming towards Scotland and there's some more threatening cloud coming across southern parts of England and Ireland. This should stay to the south of us though. Any showers will soon die out this evening as clearing skies with very light winds will lead to a widespread frost overnight. Some icy patches are likely on roads as temperatures drop as minus two Celsius, twenty eight Fahrenheit. So a cold sunny start tomorrow morning with only very thin cloud about. And there'll be a few showers coming along in the afternoon and there'll be plenty of sunshine about and it should feel reasonably pleasant with temperatures around nine Celsius, forty eight Fahrenheit. The Chancellor has rejected criticism from health groups who wanted cigarettes to go up in the budget. A Wiltshire vicar's three young daughters died in a fire at their home in Chilmark. It was probably caused by an electrical fault. An American diplomat has been expelled from Moscow. The Russians say he was spying. A Muslim school in Yorkshire has been refused state funding despite staff protests that Christian, Catholic and Jewish schools are funded. The FTSE index is down four point two at two thousand one hundred and twenty one point two, and the pound is worth one dollar, seventy two cents. Well special report on tonights programme from Wesley Smith, we erm have got also some other reports coming up later on in Central South from Wesley Smith in America. Of course tomorrow's Gold Cup day at Cheltenham and this time tomorrow we'll be back with the results and of course all the highlights. That's all from us for now. Goodnight. Roof-top confrontation as protestors try to save a hotel. The Mappa Mundi getting into millions but there's concern about a share plan. And the mile-high fuel club topping up over the North Sea. Good evening, first tonight demolition work on a Cotswold hotel has been halted after fighting broke out between building workers and demonstrators. Attempts are now being made to get protected status for the building. The hotel's owners are furious that they weren't told it may be listed. Simon Harris reports. The police were expecting a peaceful demonstration, the demolition contractors weren't expecting one at all. But when they arrived to start pulling down the George hotel at Nailsworth in Gloucestershire, they were confronted by two hundred angry protesters. The front door blocked, the men climbed onto the roof and then things got out of hand. The demonstrators knew something the demolition workers didn't. That the local council was attempting to get the building listed. For several minutes the rooftop scuffles continued. The police called for reinforcements but by then the workmen knew they were outnumbered and decided enough was enough. The police said to begin with they were powerless to intervene, until disorder broke out the only offence being committed was trespass. I was told as it's a generally responsible bunch of people and I'm afraid that erm today wasn't, in my view, a very responsible action to take. There's been an inn on the site for more than two hundred years, though the present George was only built in 1938, more than anything else it's a landmark. I think by the demonstration this morning that people are not prepared to see the building fall down and I think that, erm if necessary, people will do everything within their power to prevent the erm the contractors moving in. But the police say you are breaking the law in doing this. erm yes, obviously it has to be an individual decision on people's parts, how you know whether they feel they're prepared to do that. With calm restored the police and the protestors were left waiting. The next step is in the hands of the hotel's owners, a construction firm from Halesowen, which wants to build an old-peoples' home on the site. Eventually a senior official arrived for talks with the police, somewhat annoyed that he hadn't been told of the attempt to list the building. They're awaiting further information on the planning situation and until that is made clear we will suspend the demolition work today. Stroud District Council say they believe the hotel is of little architectural importance but they've agreed to see if it should be listed because of the public concern. They say they didn't tell the owners because it's their policy not to do so. It has been known for developers to move in virtually overnight to demolish a building once they find out attempts are being made to list it. Whether the hotel is spared from bulldozers should be known by Wednesday. For the moment the protestors have only won a temporary stay of execution. A lawyer says he is prepared to go to court to force an enquiry into the water contamination still affecting Swindon and South Oxfordshire. More than a hundred victims have now approached him for legal advice and doctors are still seeing new cases six weeks after chryptosporidium was first identified in the Farmoor reservoir. Martin Doors reports. Claims lawyer Leslie Perrin is wading through more than a hundred cases of people who say they've fallen victim to the virulent chryptosporidium bug and he believes that's just a small percentage of the number who could eventually seek damages. Doctors in Swindon alone have now seen two hundred and sixty cases, people like six year old Ian Humphries; he's suffered extreme stomach cramps and diarrhoea. He ended up on a drip in the Princess Margaret hospital. After the illness, Ian weighed just three stone. The people coming to see Leslie Perrin are angry. I think, for the future, people are very confused. They don't know when they're going to be able to drink their water without boiling it again. And they don't really know what the effects of what they've drunk is going to be. Looking back into the past, people are eager for an explanation to be given to them by Thames and I do think that people don't feel that's what they've had so far. You've had about a hundred people come to you, are you looking for damages? Ultimately I'm sure that's something that people will want. erm I have to say that people are just as interested in having a proper explanation brought out and one that's brought out from independent questioning of Thames's explanations. The bug was traced back to the Farmoor treatment works which only started supplying Swindon from last August. Thames Waters say the organism occurs naturally, the damages claim said a spokesman would be like suing nature and that, he said, was an interesting idea. Well, it's not one of those things in any other water area, as far as I know. As far as I know, the Farmoor system of water is the only area where a substantial problem with chryptosporidia has ever been erm experienced anywhere in the world. There's a lot to be done if cases are to be taken to court, but the last thing Thames Water will want during the run up to privatisation is a long, drawn out damages claim where the point at issue is the safety of the water in the tap. An all-party delegation of MPs from the area met transport minister Peter Bottomly to express their fears about traffic chaos around the new M 40 link. Their concern follows the announcement of a twelve month gap between the opening of the northern section and the completion of the remaining route, the Wendlebury to Waterstock section, was confirmed last week. The MPs talked of an impending disaster of total traffic chaos. They urged the department of transport to complete the motorway as a matter of urgency. They also asked for footpath improvements to protect pedestrians and other measures to minimize disruption. A spokesman for the department said they were studying the consultants' report on new signposting, highways improvements and restricted access to prevent motorists taking shortcuts through residential areas. Well, the M 40 extension from Oxford to Birmingham is supposed to solve most of the region's traffic problems. But now motoring organizations are warning that the congestion and traffic chaos will get much worse before it gets better. The AA says fourteen thousand extra drivers a day will be using the existing motorway and its link roads by 1991. That's when the final Oxford end of the new motorway, the Waterstock to Wendlebury section, opens. Many hundreds of Londoners have moved out into the central south region, opting for a cheaper home at the cost of the long journey to work. But do they realize just what they're letting themselves in for. Martin Graham- Scott joined a commuter who travels each day to London from his home in Long Crendon in Buckinghamshire. The distance is just over fifty miles but it can take him three hours to get there. Tim Clifton starts his day at six o'clock in the morning. With a quick breakfast and already with thoughts on the work ahead. Tim is the director of a London advertising agency, he commuters there each day on the M40 from his country home at Long Crendon in Buckinghamshire. He's been doing the journey for fifteen years because he says he loves living in the country. This morning he's on the road by six-thirty hoping to be at his desk an hour and fifteen minutes later, at seven forty five. The erm the first part of the erm the journey which I take every morning as you can see even on a nice spring morning fortunately, half past six, nothing on the roads. I can't promise it will be like that for the rest of the journey. London, here we come. Let's see what little mysteries we have. Having driven thirty miles and for fifty minutes, he is forced to slow down for the first time. The M 40 reduced to a crawl. Roadworks near Denim. We are now coming into a situation where at the end of the motorway the three lanes are now running into two purely because of the roadworks on the right of the Uxbridge roundabout. After twenty slow minutes he's clear. We're now beginning a fairly and relatively trouble-free run erm because there are now a series of under and over-passes until we get back to nearer London. But before long traffic clogs up again at Hanger Lane. It's now ten past eight, he's been on the road for an hour and forty minutes, increasingly late. No matter how much you speed up the entry into London at some point in time you are going to have to create a jam. I think what is going to happen here is that you're just going to get one mega-jam round about this region from about Hanger Lane onwards because there's nothing really you can do about it. Tim's destination is New Bond Street. He eventually gets there at eight forty-five. Two and a quarter hours after setting out. He admits he's already exhausted before starting a twelve hour working day. It's getting worse every Monday and conversely every Friday more and more is going out of London. And a full day's work ahead of you now. Yup, till about seven or eight o'clock tonight. And the same story tonight? And the same story tonight. Tim will be making his return journey in the next couple of hours. Tomorrow at six-thirty it starts all over again. The new city of Milton Keynes is to get its second aqueduct after a gap of one hundred and seventy-eight years. It will carry the Grand Union canal across a new stretch of road at Stonebridge, the concrete structure will cost Milton Keynes Development Corporation nearly two million pounds and should be finished by mid-1991. The first iron aqueduct was built at Wolverton in 1811. The supermarket firm, Gateway, is taking legal action against a Northampton firm which it alleges is selling fire-damaged Gateway foods. Thousands of pounds worth of tinned food was sold by loss adjusters after being damaged in a fire at the Gateway supermarket in Wheatley in Oxfordshire last month. Now some of the tins have been sold in Northampton still with Gateway labels. Gateway has issued a writ because a condition of sale was that all identification should be removed if the goods were resold. Fewer women in Britain return to work after having children than in other E E C countries. And one of the reasons is the shortage of state nurseries. A new survey by a firm called Nurseries at Work also says that with booming European trade, firms are having to consider providing child-care for working mothers. Oxfordshire County Council is trying to encourage companies to do just that. The company creche at Spencer's corsetry is a shining example of the work-place nursery. Mums pay fourteen pounds a week for their two to five year olds to be cared for by trained nursery nurses in a sunny room just next door to the main factory. Spencer's, who were established in 1927, now employ just over two hundred at their factory in Banbury. Eighty-five percent are women, all highly-skilled sewing machinists. It was in a desperate attempt to woo them back to work two years ago that Spencer's established its nursery. Our offices had expanded very rapidly from 1986 onwards and we had to increase our production capacity here and we were finding it very difficult to recruit trained sewing machinists. It is actually financial viable for the company? Oh, it's been extremely cost-effective, yes. erm we decided from the start that erm the mums who have their kids in the creche should make some contribution towards the costs; we're providing them with a benefit erm but the company picks up the major part of the bill erm but in terms of the output from the additional sewing machinists that we've got, it's very, very cost-effective, yes. With the prospect of increased trade after the lifting of common market restrictions in 1992, combined with labour shortages at home, British employers are having to re-assess their attitude to women with children. And in response to a growing shortage of skilled workers in Oxfordshire the county council recently held a seminar for employers to discuss child-care at work. We'll certainly be putting firms in touch with others so that they can learn quickly from other experiences as quite a network of firms grew up at the seminar. And also with our under-fives advisers, we will be seeing that specific advise is given. There's no financial help, however. Certainly working mums at Spencer's find arrangements there ideal. Before we had we bought a house and so I really had to come back to work because we needed my wages and erm the creche was just being brought out so I knew there was a chance of coming back. When I was ill or anything like that then your on hang cause they just come over, well they phone over, and off you go. The county can already boast eleven work-place nurseries. If attitudes change and, with the need to attract people back to work, they may have to, then company creches could soon be as common as canteens. Four hospitals in the central south area are to carry out a pilot study in running their own affairs, a first step towards opting out of the National Health Service. The Radcliffe Infirmary and the John Radcliffe hospital in Oxford, the Northampton General and Milton Keynes General are among fifty hospitals which will test out new government proposals for independent hospital management. The idea is to give consultants the chance to run their own departments and to be in charge of their own finances and staffing. It's being seen as a first step towards opting out of the N H S. Oxford Regional Health Authority is already one step ahead of the government. It's been running a similar pilot scheme at the Radcliffe Infirmary for the past eighteen months and says consultants are enthusiastic about the results. Well, in the studio tonight is Andrew Moss from the Oxford Health Authority. Andrew, how far exactly has the scheme which you've been running gone? Well, we've been going for, I should think, about eighteen months in hospitals in Oxford, looking at ways in which we can give better information to consultants to help them to be more in charge of their own destiny. I think I ought really to say that it's not something that's particularly associated with opting out, it's something we were already doing anyway as an aid to better management. And are you now going to take that any further or are you going as far as the government wants you to go as this stage? Well, what the government has said today is that they're giving us some money to help us to take it and boost it a bit further and we're very pleased to see that. There's a long way to go yet before full-scale resource management comes into the health service in Oxford. Well now, you're saying your consultants are enthusiastic about what they've seen so far, we're hearing a lot of doctors, G Ps, being very critical, why that ambivalence? Well, I think we're talking here about hospitals in particular and not GP practice but we're also saying that this is something which the enthusiastic and bright and very capable people we have in our health service are very keen on because they believe it will do better for their patients. Thank you very much for coming in and I'm sure we'll be following that story. Thank you. Poet Pam Ayres has been in Gloucestershire to open a new lambing centre. Lambing pens are the latest attractions at the Cotswold Farm park. From today members of the parleg public will be able to learn all about the lambing process and they'll even be allowed to watch as some of the rare sheep kept there give birth. Pam Ayres joined a group of school children as they toured the centre which has played a leading role in saving rare breeds of sheep and pigs. This tiny Shetland pony was found two weeks ago wandering in a field of pitchum near Stroud but so far no one has come forward to claim him. R S P C A officials think the pony was probably a child's pet and are surprised that no one is missing him. He is now being cared for at a farm in Dersely. Well still to come in part two we have all the sporting action including the weigh-in for the boat race. And the fuel stations in the sky, we're out refuelling with the R A F. Welcome back. The saga of Hereford Cathedral's Mappa Mundi has gone a stage further. It's been revealed that multi-millionaire Paul Getty is donating a million pounds for a building to house the map and the famous chained library. The National Heritage Memorial Fund say they're prepared to match his gift with a further two million pounds on the understanding that a public appeal be launched to raise a similar sum. From Hereford, John Cane sends this report. Well, the feeling here in Hereford this afternoon is that maybe the National Heritage Memorial Fund may have slightly jumped the gun with their offer. Although the Dean in Chapters says they prefer the option of selling shares in the Mappa Mundi they've yet to make a firm, final decision. So this afternoon's news that Paul Getty is prepared to give a million pounds to help construct a building to house the mediaeval map and chained library has presented the townfolk here with yet another opportunity of keeping their heritage intact. Yes, it's fantastic news that somebody else is interested in the Mappa Mundi and the problems of Hereford's Cathedral. And how do you react to Paul Getty out there in America agreeing to put a million pounds into the pot? Well, absolutely delighted quite naturally. erm it isn't a problem just for Hereford or for this country it's an international problem which has evoked interest over the whole world. The Dean in Chapter of Hereford Cathedral have yet to vote for the privatisation scheme although I do believe they might just vote for it. who do you think would buy the shares? I can't imagine I can only say that from my knowledge of Herefordshire as a Herefordian myself, I can't imagine for the life of me that there are seven thousand people locally who could remotely afford a thousand pounds per share. So I can't see very many of them coming to local people. Will you be getting your cheque book out? No I shan't be getting my cheque book out on that basis because as far as I'm concerned the thing would still not belong to the city. So what's the Cathedral's reaction to this afternoon's rather confusing news? A short time ago we spoke to the presenter. an endowment of seven million in order to further the work of the Cathedral. So that sounds as if you favour the idea of selling off shares. That certainly is a very hopeful suggestion which we're most interested in because it does look as if the P L C will succeed and if it does then we shall have our full seven million pounds. So still the future of the Mappa Mundi still hangs in the balance. It yes, certainly at the moment we're not quite sure what the future will bring and we're waiting until after Easter before we make our final decisions and announcements. But we very much hope that the map will stay in Hereford and that we shall have the money we require for the Cathedral. It's going to be an exciting end to the soccer season in the second division for Swindon Town and their fans. On Saturday, Town made it four wins in a row with a three-two victory at Bournemouth. Here's how the top of the table looks now. The top two go up, the next four fight it out in the play-offs. It's going to be touch and go but Swindon are in form. Town hit Bournemouth with all guns blazing and took the lead after twenty-nine minutes. A stunning strike from Steve Fowley. How the Swindon fans and players love to be beside the seaside. Just before half-time, Town got their second sheers break and Fowley bungled the ball home. Swindon looked winners all the way, the only heart-stopping moment came just after break when Linford Blisset got a goal back. Could Town hold on, that was the question now, no problem, when we've got players like Tom Jones around. Newson got a goal back for Bournemouth near the end but it was Swindon's game by then. Next stop is the county ground and West Brum on Saturday. And what with Swindon chasing promotion and Gloucester playing in the cup semi-final we've got quite a week ahead but the biggest crowd will be on the banks of the River Thames for the boat race. Oxford and Cambridge came face to face for the first time today when the scales were set for the official weigh-in. Cambridge were left high and dry for a time this afternoon as Oxford followed in the footsteps of many a champion boxer and left the opposition waiting at the official weigh-in. When the dark-blues did turn up the fun started but as expected the Cambridge crew were carrying far more weight. And history was made when the light-blues Toby Backhouse, a giant of a man, stepped onto the scales. He weighed in at sixteen stone, eleven pounds, which makes him the heaviest man ever to row in the boat race. Cambridge also have the lightest in their cox, Leigh Vice, she tipped the scales at just seven stone, six. In the past, Oxford have been the heavier but this year, on average, they're nearly a stone a man lighter. Cambridge reckon the weight will be to their advantage although some experts reckon the light-blues may be too heavy. Oxford's heaviest oarsman this year is their number five, Harry Gillam, fourteen stone, twelve. Apart from being one of the largest blue boats in years, it is also one of the youngest, with only one American he's the boat club president, Mike Aspel. We're coming along very well and erm working hard as coach and erm things have really been picking up we've been very pleased with the way it's gone. Now this year you've a lighter crew than usual, how will that affect you? erm It won't. I mean, it's like the change of a crew one way or the other, it was fat or heavy it's, you know, it's the eight guys that are there and those are the eight best men that Oxford have and I think we have the best crew with those eight people. The boat race always draws a lot of attention and this year is no exception. Millions will be watching around the world and the word at the moment, Oxford are favourites. Full preview of that on Thursday. The R A F base at Brize Norton provides many of the backup services vital to the airforce, none more so than the air refuelling squadron which keeps the jets going. The skill of swapping fuel in mid-air is a delicate operation and scores of pilots depend on the flying tankers from Brize. Well, Kim Barnes joined them to see how it's done. The early morning greeting session decides where the gas station in the sky will go today. One-o-one squadron at Brize Norton is dedicated to keeping the R A F in the skies with the skilled and tricky business of air refuelling. Today's customers, Phantoms and Harriers. We only have a limited number of fighter aircraft available. By using air- to-air refuelling you can keep them airborne far longer than they would normally be able to using our own internal fuel. For example, a Phantom may only be able to stay airborne for something like an hour and three-quarters, two hours using it's own fuel but with a tanker there we can keep them topped virtually well, obviously until we run out of fuel and for much, much longer. Where the skill comes really is when you get a large number of aircraft, and it's using your aircraft the most efficient way you can in the shortest possible time, so you haven't got people hanging around wasting good fuel, you want them ideally plugged in and taking fuel. The jet lines up at the tanker's serving carriage and drives the hose back in to open a valve. Just like at the garage, it will lock off when it's full. Air refuelling has come a long way from the first attempts in the thirties where the co-pilot literally popped out and grabbed the hose. Even now, it can be hit and miss. One-o-one squadron originally set up in 1917, was reformed in 1984 as one of only two refuelling squadrons, after the Falklands had shown a strategic use of air-to-air refuelling. During the conflict, a Vulcan had to land in Brazil after running out of fuel. Now they run nine DC10s, each carrying seventy- four tons of fuel, taken out of civil use because they were too noisy; they're loaded and ready to go at any time. We'll always be able to get a tanker airborne within an hour if needed. Well what does that mean then are you likely to get called out at the middle of the night? Can do, yes. Happens. You don't mind being on call around the clock? No, you get used to it. So you're the rest of the R A F airborne. Oh yes indeed. This evening will be clear and cold; temperatures falling to below freezing. Tomorrow morning will begin cold and bright with a fair amount of sunshine and the afternoon will turn dull. Maximum temperature, eight Celsius, forty-six Fahrenheit. Finally, the FTSE index is down nineteen point five at two thousand and fifty three point six. And that's it from us for the moment, Ann Lucas will be here at ten-thirty with the late news but from us for the moment, goodnight. Good evening. First tonight, a man who specialises in rescuing young people brainwashed by religious sects, has been arrested in Switzerland on kidnapping charges. Martin Frears from Cheltenham was arrested in Lugano while trying to de-program a young Italian man. A member of the Hare Krishna sect. He'd been hired by the man's parents but still faces up to 20 years in gaol. Martin Frears has been working as religious mercenary since he himself was rescued from the Moonies by his father. In a moment we'll be speaking to him about his son's plight, but first we go over to Switzerland where our reporter, John Marshall, has been following the story. Now, John Marshall, what's the background to Martin Frears' arrest? The parents had invited him and two other members of Martin Frears' alleged gang. The young man know as Sandro appeared at the house and his parents said ‘we don't want you to go back to the Hare Krishna movement’. Sandro said ‘no, I'm going back’, and with that the police claim that Martin Frears and the other two members of the gang set about Sandro by using gas, tear gas, then handcuffed him. They took him away in a car to a secluded house in the Swiss alps. Well, what do you know about Martin Frears and his operation in Switzerland? Well, this is the first time we've heard of him here in Switzerland. He has a place in Cheltenham in England which he set up some years ago, and he also has a retreat in the French alps in St Claude, and his aim, apparently, is to de-program people who have been through religious sects such as Scientologists, Moonies and now the Hare Krishnas. And we understand that he is paid up to £500 a day to carry out those services. I think it was a little lower. It was about £400 to £450 a day to each member of the gang. Now he has very emotional reasons for carrying out this work. He himself was once a member of the Moonies sect, wasn't he? Yes he was. He was the leader of the Canadian set of Moonies. He became very dissatisfied and he came back to the U K. He set up an organisation there to try to help those who'd been in the hands of the Moonies. He apparently has done quite a lot of good work in the past. I am rather surprised that Martin Frears has found himself in this predicament. Under Swiss rule, what's likely to happen to him now? Well, he's charged with kidnapping. He's charged with a number of other offences. He faces a prison sentence of up to twenty years if found guilty. Not only is Martin Frears arrested and the other two members of the gang, but also the parents of Sandro are now under arrest in Lugano prison here in Switzerland, southern Switzerland. John Marshall in Switzerland, thank you very much. Thank you. Well in the last hour reporter Claire Lafferty has been speaking to Martin Frears' father in Cheltenham. For him it's like déjá vu, having rescued his son from the Moonies in Canada several years ago. We sent Martin over to operate our North American office because we produce a magazine that goes all over the world, and based in Canada he ran the office for us there and was doing a very good job. Then, all of a sudden, he didn't come into the office any more and we discovered that he had been recruited by the Moonies over there . He neglected all his duties and so there was nothing for it, either we had to wipe him off as a son, which is an impossible thing for a parent to do, or we had to decide the only other course open to us which was to kidnap him and have him de-programmed. When we got him out and he felt refreshed and better about it, he also felt worse because he realized the harm he had done to other youngster and he set about, therefore, trying to help other parents rescue their youngsters out of it. Now Martin has actually been arrested and accused of a crime, what's your reaction to that? Well, first of all, I've heard that — it's not the first time he's been arrested, and it's not the first time de-programmers have been arrested. Martin would go to help any parent if he could, to talk to their youngsters, and I think that is the situation. I know nothing about this Swiss business, but it's falling into a pattern. These cults are very adept at using the law for their own ends and parents, I'm afraid, in their desire to rescue their youngsters from the cults, will have to cross a line. As you would imagine, if you saw your youngster tottering towards Beachy Head and was about to fall off, and if there was a notice there that said you mustn't cross over this fence as you are guilty of trespassing, but you saw your child falling, what would you do — stay this side of the line because it was the law? Doctors in Swindon say they've seen three cases of a rare illness normally associated with Third World countries. It's called Jardea and is often found in water. The revelation comes as Thames Water is trying to isolate the cause of contamination that led to an outbreak of illness caused by a germ called cryptosporidium. Parents of young children are still being advise to boil water six weeks after that organism was found at a treatment works supplying Swindon and South Oxfordshire. Martin Dawes reports. Mmd:— There's nothing wrong with Jamie Thurley's appetite now. He's a fifteen month-old making up for lost time. He was ill for a month with a swingeing combination of Jardea and cryptosporidia. The cryptosporidia was bad, the Jardea was much worse. Fa: During that week that he had that he was in absolute agony and night time seemed to affect him more than during the day. Two or three nights on the run we had him downstairs — at two o'clock to six o'clock I sat here one morning. He was just rolling round the floor in agony. He wouldn't let me pick him up, comfort him, do anything with him at all and I just didn't know what was wrong with him. I suspected it might be tummy pains, but he hadn't had it up until now. The cryptosporidia has affected hundreds of people. The contamination was traced to a water treatment works near Oxford. Jardea is a similar type of organism. Both bugs are microscopic animals. Doctors in Swindon have seen three recent cases of Jardea. That's not enough to draw any conclusions about the cause. Jardea's a funny thing. It can be spread person to person. It can be in contaminated food. It can be contaminated drinks, in other words water or other types of drink. It's fairly widespread. The problem with it is that a lot of people are asymptomatic and you don't know whom may or may not be carrying Jardea. How many would you normally hear about? It's very difficult to put a normal limit on this. You know, you may go for a long time and not see any, then you'll see two or three in possibly a week. Thames Water says it's unfortunate some people have Jardea and cryptosporidia, but that's not surprising given the number of people tested. Jamie's father is helping to organise a protest group, which may yet take Thames Water to court for damages over the cryptosporidia contamination. Well the whole problem of tropical diseases is one which doctors are facing more and more these days, especially with people travelling to distant and exotic locations for their holidays. Health officials are so worried that they are asking people to double check that they have the correct vaccinations before leaving the country. Mark Huckstep from working with a mission clinic in Kenya with malaria. As a doctor he knows how serious the disease is. It killed five people in England last year. The symptoms are most unpleasant. You have a high fever, you feel sick, wretched, nauseated. Your body aches, your limbs ache, your joints ache, you have a headache, and when the fever becomes highly rigour, which means that the muscles contract, you begin to shake. So it's a very unpleasant all told and the treatment is as unpleasant as the disease itself. What is the treatment? High dose Quinine, which makes you sick and also gives you a loud ringing in your ears. There are precautions and Dr. Huckstep thought he's followed the rules. You take Chloroquin every week and Proguanin every day, and you do so a week before leaving England and six weeks after returning. If you don't you have quite a good chance of getting malaria if you've been bitten. And what happened to you? You actually forgot to take some later on? I forgot to take a couple when I got back to England. I don't think that caused malaria — I was bitten by a lot of mosquitoes while I was in East Africa. The mosquito net I was using was less than perfect and my limbs touched the net at night, so the mosquitoes lined up on the net and bit me through it. Exotic holidays are within easy reach. There's fierce competition between the travel companies to tempt the holiday-maker bored with Spain and Tenerife to Africa, the Far East and South America. But don't be fooled — they may make riveting holiday snaps, but adventurous travellers can, and do, catch all these tropical diseases. Over the last twelve months there have been 51 cases of dysentery in Oxfordshire. Twenty-one people came back from abroad with malaria. One of the problems, I am sure, is that they are going on package tours which are very well organized, a lot of things laid on, and they think, fair enough, that most things have been taken care of. Travel agents are more conscious of the risks and usually give travellers a list of vaccines or medicines that they should obtain before they go. The John Radcliffe Hospital in Oxford holds fortnightly vaccination clinics. Is it really worth having all the injections to go? Oh definitely. I wouldn't like to catch some of the diseases that are out there. Has it been a nuisance having them? Yes, I suppose so, having to come all this way out and there are not many clinics. It's been horrible because I don't like needles at all. I really had to decide that I was going to, you know, it was really worth going. It's for 15 weeks, so it is worth it I suppose. A surprising number of holidaymakers still don't bother, but the penalty could be fatal. Police are hunting a sex attacker who left a young woman scratched and bleeding after she fought him off. The attack happened on a footpath at Pinfarthings near Nailsworth in Gloucestershire. The eighteen year old woman was grabbed by a man in his thirties as she walked down the isolated track. She struggled, but he scratched her face and body and then ran off. Police have been conducting house to house enquiries at homes nearby. The former Chairman and Accountant of Aylesbury Town Football Club have been committed for trial on tax fraud charges. Charles Docherty, who was Chairman of the club, and Nigel Ramsden, who was the club's Accountant, face five charges brought under the common law of cheat. It's alleged that details of payments to players between 1984 and 1987 were not fully revealed. Both men were granted unconditional bail. A total of 103 beds, including a unique ward, are being closed for good because of a shortage of cash. Members of Oxfordshire's Health Authority say they simply cannot afford to maintain the beds which are mainly for elderly patients. The decision has been attacked by Health Service watchdogs who say care for the elderly is now chronically underfunded. Martin Graham-Scott reports. For three and a half years the Beeson Ward at Oxford's Radcliffe Infirmary has been looking after elderly people — those who need specialist care after major surgery. The ward is the only one in the country where nurses and not doctors admit and discharge patients. Now the ward, which has sixteen beds, is closing down. Oxfordshire's Health Authority says it cannot afford £200,000 each year to keep it going. I think it's an awful shame. Why don't they give them the money to carry on and do all the good work they've done, which is well worthwhile. It's wonderful work they do, wonderful. They're kind, patient. It's clean. Good food. There's nothing you can complain about, nothing. The patients on Beeson Ward will be transferred to other hospitals in the next few weeks. As for the staff, they're going on to new jobs. The vacancies have been appearing on the notice board. I'm very disappointed indeed. Not only for myself as it's been a particular project close to me for many years, but for the break up of a team, a team that has a long time to build up and a team that worked very well together and who were very committed. In the past the ward received funding from charities. That money has now dried up. The Health Authority says that it simply has no extra cash from its £136 million budget. It has been supported by a number of outside bodies previously, but the Authority were not able to find it from their base allocation this year in order to continue. The Authority is permanently closing more than a hundred beds around the county. They include ten at Wallingford, sixteen at Witney, fourteen at the Churchill Hospital in Oxford and twenty-two at Littlemore and Warneford Hospitals. The Community Health Council says care for the elderly is now desperately underfunded. There will now just be more pressure on the bigger hospitals. When we are old we take longer to recover and because we can't discharge them to nursing kind of beds then there'll be back up in the John Radcliffe Hospital and extra pressure there. So there'll be a bottle-neck. There'll be a bottle-neck. There already is a bottle-neck — it'll get worse. But the situation may change. The Health Authority is now talking about a new nursing unit. A decision on that will be taken next month. A crowd of angry demonstrators were given the slip today by a building expert who'll decide the fate of a hotel facing demolition. The protestors turned up in force to confront the man, but he'd already been and gone. His decision on whether the building should be given listed status still hasn't been announced. Day two of the seize of the George Hotel at Nailsworth at Gloucester, and the protestors were in a confident mood. After rooftop scuffles yesterday, they forced a halt to the demolition work. The hotel's owners want to replace it with old people's homes, but they've agreed to hold back the bulldozers while the building's inspected by an official from English Heritage. He will make a recommendation which goes back to the Department of the Environment, who will make the final decision as to whether the building should be listed. The George Hotel is deemed of little architectural importance by the Council, but the protestors say it's a historic landmark. They were determined to confront the English Heritage inspector, but it soon became clear he'd given them the slip. All the indications are that he's been, that he does not wish to be involved with any disputes. He certainly doesn't like publicity and we've been unable to track him down. For the demolition team, it's been a frustrating wait. They won't be paid until they start work. Why is it that this country puts money before anything else? I don't give damn about building contractors not being paid. That's too bad. I didn't hire them. I don't want them to pull the building down anyway. The hotel's owners have made it clear they are not obliged to wait for the outcome of today's inspection. It is their property and they can do with it as they please. At the moment there are no plans for them to do any more work on the building. Until a decision is made on whether the building gets listed status, the protestors say they're staying put. We've just heard in the last few minutes that the application for that hotel to be listed has been turned down. Still to come in part two, for sale on Tuesday, Des man Friday. And if Fido's chewing the carpet, then put him on the couch. Hello again. Now, if you've got the odd spare weekend, a boat and £55,000 to spend, we may have found just the thing for you a fantasy island all of your own, and it's up for sale right here in the heart of the Central South region. Gary Cottrill has been seeing what you get for your money. Near a village called Wyre Piddle, with no gas, electricity or mains water, and a fifteen minute boat ride to the nearest pub, shop or church, there's a lot not very attractive about Osier Island. In reality is a rather basic timber shack on a small, unkept plot of land, surrounded on all sides by the river Avon. But, if you use your imagination, it could be a glorious retreat a place to go and hide, a nest for lovebirds, an island of Eden, and on a sunny afternoon, lazing around in your own private kingdom beats life on a busy housing estate. What sort of person do you think would be interested? Oh, I think a wide variety of people are already showing interested in fact. From the business man getting away from the stress of modern life, through to the naturalist, bird-watcher, fisherman, all sorts of people. What's on offer then here? Well, we have an island which is three-quarters of an acre approximately in size, with a lot of a mature trees, and in the centre of the island, as you can see behind me, there's a timber chalet. The current owner, Dennis Smith, bought the island thirty years ago for £259. Now it's worth £55,000. What's your best memory do you think? Well, it's been all the members are good, sort of thing, it's a job to pick out one, but You'll be sorry to see it go Yes, yes, sorry to see it go, but it's got to go, so that's it. The cabin consists of living room, two bedrooms, bathroom and kitchen, and the view's not bad either — perfect for birdwatchers. And when the time comes round to return to the office, it's just five miles to the M 5 motorway. Environmental Minister, Nicholas Ridley, has forced Councillors to put off a decision over the building of a controversial holiday village in his own constituency. Demonstrators lobbied Councillors over the plan, put forward by Granada Leisure for a 600 chalet resort in the Cotswold Water Park near Cirencester. That last minute instruction from London said that planners could only form a view. Mr Ridley may take the matter out of the local Council's hands and decide the issue himself. The application was deferred until June. Protestors say the scheme is too big and that it will swamp neighbouring villages. The villagers of Tingewick near Buckingham have been carrying out their own traffic survey as part of their campaign for a bypass. They've been calling for an alternative route to the A 421 since World War Two. The road links Milton Keynes with Oxford and villagers say the road is too narrow for the amount of traffic that passes through. A charity which provides homes for disabled ex-servicemen has a luxurious bungalow standing empty, but it can't find a suitable occupant. The bungalow, in a pretty Worcestershire village, has been empty for nearly a year. Tina Monahan reports. The Hudson family have lived in the Manor House in the picturesque village of Wick for centuries. Thirty years ago they built seven homes in the village for war veterans, in memory of the present owner's great uncle, who was killed during the First World War. One specially adapted bungalow is ideal for a disabled ex-serviceman. It's got special wide doors and passageways to cater for wheelchairs, and the bathroom has been specially adapted. More importantly, it's practically rent free. The trouble is, no-one seems to want it. It's a little bit of a puzzle. One knows that disabled people from the War are getting older and there possibly aren't quite so many of them, but we felt as a Trust that there were still a number of people about who would benefit from having this sort of accommodation. Does it have to be a man? Up until very recently, it was for men only, but we did persuade the Charity Commission that times were changing and that if perchance there was a lady who was disabled, she would also be able to qualify. The other tenants say that life for them has never been better. every year. No worries, no noise, no hassle whatsoever. It's a shame really that no-one has come forward to apply for it, because it's such a lovely, wonderful bungalow. Just peace for us, peace. You know, the countryside and the animals, the wildlife — it's just beautiful. The prospective tenants don't have to belong to any particular regiment or come from any particular part of the country. The only thing they have to do is find the rent. All of £1 per week. Now, if your dog's been behaving in an unusual way, don't despair, you can now call in the experts. Dog therapy is apparently the latest way to beat those awkward pet problems like chewing the carpet, or even the postman. A mobile psychologist will now be available at a vet's surgery in Oxfordshire, promising peace of mind for both Rover and his owner. Kim Barnes found out what's involved on the canine couch. These dogs look happy enough, but they could be riddled with canine complexes. So when Fido needs Freud, help is at hand. This bruiser's called Tyson — that's quite a lot to live up to. Would you consider going to a doctor if he developed any mental instability? If he did, but he's sound at the moment. In the waiting room at dog help clinics it's hard to keep cheerful. There'll be a two hour consultation, setting owners back up to £60, plus a calm voice on the end of a phone after that if needed. Luke is a depressed Doberman, with a difficult childhood. He sort of got down on his back legs. His teeth were showing and his mouth was wide open. He's obviously a very sensitive dog. One can see that by the way he's behaving now. What sort of problems has he got? Well, I mean, really what he does is, apart from being a puppy and chewing things, you can't tell him off for doing it, because if you do then that's when he shows, you know, his teeth come back and really he makes you frightened. So its a case of who has the nervous breakdown first, you or the dog? Well, I think it's more likely to be me than the dog! They fall into several major categories. Obviously, there's the area of aggression, which can be split into various sub-sections; fear aggression, dominance aggression, territorial behaviour, livestock chasing, aggression towards other dogs. One thing we don't do is put the dog on the couch. What we must do is see what the problems are from the owner's point of view and analyse exactly what is going on. And the softly, softly approach has the backing of orthodox medicine. I think it's very good, because we as vets probably don't spend anywhere near enough time with problem owners, problem dogs rather, and on that basis he is able to spend an hour and a half to two hours with each owner. And the head to head method could have wider appeal. We have a psychotherapist here for dogs. Do you think the same thing should be available for cats? No, I don't think so. Not this one — she's twelve years of age and she's her own mistress. But perhaps she could do with some mental help. I think what she's got at the moment is toothache Well despite that Freudian slip there, no they don't take problem owners! A look at the satellite sequence shows that the reason for the cold weather we've been having. A long, narrow band of cloud has been moving down over the country and will continue to do so throughout the night before it moves away eastwards tomorrow, being replaced by clear skies to the west. And notice speckled cloud further north — that's given snow to parts of Scotland today. Tonight will be cloudy, with light rain or drizzle in most places. Temperatures overnight will fall to 7 Celsius, 45 Fahrenheit, so remaining reasonably mild, although the winds will pick up a little later. Tomorrow morning will be mild, with rain or drizzle in places, but heavier rain will move quickly across the region in the morning. As we go into the afternoon, the heavies rain will move eastwards, and brighter, showery weather will soon follow. Tomorrow's top temperatures, 10 Celsius, 50 Fahrenheit, but it will drop off to a cool 7 celsius, 45 Fahrenheit, accompanied by quite a strong north westerly wind. And now a look at tonight's financial news. The FTSE 100 Index is up 18.6 at 2,072.2 and the pound is worth one dollar seventy-two cents. And the main national stories — a major investigation is underway into how the I R A knew the movement of two senior Ulster policemen murdered in an ambush. Transport Secretary, Paul Channon, has been explaining his actions over Lockerbie to MPs. One newspaper has accused him of lying. The Nuclear Waste Executive NAREX are to carry out tests at Sellafield and to select the best site to build a dump for nuclear waste. Electricity charges are to go up by at least 5.8 per cent from April 1st. And Archie the cat,mascot, is the hot favourite to land the role of the Coronation Street cat. Well, good luck Archie! And that's it from us for the moment, a very good night. Later this evening, we've a true story of an American ex-con who decided to fight organised crime by himself. One man against the Mafia is at 9.00. This is Central. The time, six o'clock. Tonight, a remand prisoner sets fire to himself. The Governor speaks out. Unique research centre to close because of Government cuts. And an open door for the boy whose idea of fun is a lock out. Good evening. A 22 year old prisoner is critically ill in hospital tonight after apparently setting himself on fire in his cell. His life was saved by his cell mate, who has also been treated for burns, but is now back behind bars. This report from Simon Harris. Staff at Gloucester Gaol say the prisoner probably owes his life to his cell mate. He woke in the early hours of this morning to find the 22 year old man engulfed in flames. It was fortunate indeed that we had put him in a cell with another person. At the very worst it's someone to talk to, and in this case it probably saved his life. The other person in the cell tried to smother the flames and suffered superficial damage to his hands as a result of that. He also raised the alarm. Both men were taken to Frenchay Hospital in Bristol. The cell mate was treated for burns to his hands and later returned to the gaol. The 22 year old man, who comes from Worcester, is still at the hospital. He is said to be in a critical condition. Staff at the gaol said there had been no indication that he might try to take his life. His behaviour hasn't been odd and speaking to his cell mate this morning it seems that he didn't speak to very many people either. He didn't seem to have very many friends amongst the other prisoners. The prison authorities are refusing to name the man. He'd been in custody since early February accused of attempted robbery. There is still no date set for his trial. His parents have travelled from Worcester to the hospital in Bristol. Clearing having someone brought before the courts is sufficient in itself. Having this on top is a obviously a great shock for them. Are you satisfied that everything could have been done to prevent this man doing this sort of thing. In the final analysis, if someone wishes to injure himself it's almost impossible to prevent. Tonight an investigation is underway at the prison. It's still not clear how the man set fire to himself, but as a remand prisoner he was allowed cigarettes and matches in his cell. A unique laboratory, which offers special advice about plant diseases to farmers is being closed by the Government. Agricultural Minister, John MacGregor, says that the work at the laboratory in Worcestershire can be done more efficiently elsewhere. But fruit and vegetable growers in the area are furious. They say they could now lose thousands of pounds without expert advice on their crops. Martin Graham-Scott reports. The laboratory, at Evesham in Worcestershire, has been operating for more than forty years. A research and advice centre on plant diseases on pests, it has been described as a doctors' surgery for farmers. 500 use it each year to get specialist information about their crops. Now the clinic or agricultural development and advisory service is being closed. The Government says that the work can be done just as efficiently at a bigger office in Wolverhampton, 50 miles away. This morning the staff were ordered not to talk about the closure, but they were clearly shocked. They only heard about the decision yesterday afternoon. It's thought most will be transferred to Wolverhampton, or to other Government departments. Fruit and vegetable growers in the area are furious about the decision. In nearby Offenham they are worried they'll lose thousands of pounds producing crops because they'll no longer have specialist advice on their doorstep. We get first hand information at the moment and we can take our problems to them. We can get a quick reaction back. I don't see any other way we are going to get over that problem. We haven't got them. In the long run I think it will be a loss to the Government, for the very simple reason we have got to meet this competition and if we don't in a few years time the housewife possibly will be paying a lot more money for the produce. We are being faced with ten million pounds worth of cuts in research and development over the next three years, so anything what this Government comes up with doesn't surprise me, but I am a little bit devastated. It will have a serious affect on local growers. The laboratory carries out work for three counties; Worcestershire, Warwickshire and Herefordshire. The growers are unhappy they'll soon have to travel a lot further than the Vale of Evesham to get help. The Evesham Laboratory was set up to serve growers in the Vale of Evesham and it's been taken away and Wolverhampton is quite out of the question. We can't afford to run up to Wolverhampton with plant problems from day to day. The staff have been told that the Laboratory will shut in exactly twelve months; the farmers intend to say plenty more before then. A pregnant woman says she's deeply concerned about the health of her unborn baby after drinking tap water from the germ infected Farmoor reservoir, which serves thousands of homes across the region. She's picked up the cryptosporidium organism, which has been found in the reservoir and causes stomach pains, sickness and diarrhoea. It means regular trips to hospital for checks on the baby's health. Gary Cotteril reports. For Julie Crew what should be a time of joy has become a time of pain and misery. The pain is unbearable. I just can't stand it at times, but they can't give me anything for it. Her first baby is due in six weeks time. That means six more weeks of extreme discomfort. Julie's problems started when she drank water originating from the Farmoor reservoir near Oxford, which has been found to contain the cryptosporidium organism. I went to the doctor on the Saturday and he said it was gastroenteritis and prescribed tablets for me for it and told me just to keep up my fluids so I didn't get dehydrated. So obviously I kept drinking the water and the next day, on the Sunday, the pain was so bad we called the doctor again and he found out I was in labour and he sent me to the hospital and they found out not until the Thursday that it was actually the cryptosporidium that had caused it. How is all this affecting the baby? Do the doctors know? No, they can't really say anything at the moment. They are just doing tests etc. on it. I have to go up to the hospital twice a week to day assessment unit, where they are doing test on the baby just to monitor its progress and see if everything is going okay. How worried are you, because it's your first baby, isn't it? Very worried . And Roy, the soon to be proud father, what do you think of all this? We think it's bad enough just my wife being pregnant, but with this it just takes it near enough unbearable. It's very bad at times. Cryptosporidium was diagnosed three weeks ago, but doctors are convinced it's now died off and Julie's current problems are the result of something else. In any case, they say the organism poses little threat to the unborn baby. No side effects, no effect on the baby, no spread to other organs and very limited local effect on the bowel only. Whatever the cause, and whatever the outcome, the pain and uncertainty continues for Julie and Roy. An eighteen year old arsonist has been gaoled for eight years for starting a house fire in which a four year old girl lost her hand. Bristol Crown Court heard that Jason Levy from Cheltenham set fire to a house in the town after breaking in, while Chloe Robinson was asleep upstairs with her parents. She was so badly burned that surgeons had to amputate her left hand. Most of the skin on her head was destroyed, and she now faces years of plastic surgery. The judge told Levy no punishment was severe enough for what he did. And a man has died in hospital less than an hour after being rescued from his blazing bungalow. Thomas Carey was pulled from his home at Coffee Hall in Milton Keynes after being overcome by fumes and smoke. Six firemen took more than an hour to bring the fire under control. Mr Carey died in the Accident and Emergency Unit at Milton Keynes General Hospital. Protestors, fighting to save a hotel from the bulldozers, have scored a major victory. Demolition work has been postponed indefinitely and tonight thee are new moves to give the building protected status. Here's Simon Harris again. As local residents packed a meeting of Nailsworth Town Council in Gloucestershire, it looked as if they'd lost their battle to save one of the town's landmarks. They'd just been told the George Hotel wasn't important enough to be listed, but the protestors vowed to physically stop the demolition team if necessary and it looked as if they had the backing of the Planning Authority. I think it's very important that the developers appreciate the volume of public concern over this building. Before dawn this morning the protestors were again out in force, ready and waiting for the demolition men. We've got a rota system and that started at four this morning and is now full for the rest of the day, so there will be a strong presence around the building all day long. How far are people prepared to go to stop the demolition workmen? I think they will risk arrest. I think they will risk putting themselves in front of contractors. By mid-morning it was obvious the vigil was unnecessary. The demolition men weren't coming. The developers had called off the bulldozers. There'll be no more work on the site until their plans to replace to hotel have been passed. The George sits just yards from a conservation area, and tonight, when Stroud Council Planning Committee meets, an attempt will be made to extend the zone to include the hotel. If successful, the George will be saved. Worcester Juvenile Court has been hearing how three teenage boys wreaked havoc when they went to play on a building site. The boys started up dumper trucks, a J C B and a caterpillar tractor at the site, and in just one hour they had caused nearly £50,000 worth of damage. Two of the boys admitted taking the diggers without consent, and the third admitted damaging a digger and a farmhouse. They'll be sentenced in April. More than 60 pigs have been killed in a fire. It happened on a farm at Winson near Bibury in Gloucestershire. The 12 sows and 52 piglets were trapped in a shed which was destroyed in the blaze. Clerical staff in Oxford's hospitals are to take strike action in support of their campaign for better pay. Their decision means the region's Health Service will lose its vital office staff, including those responsible for patient admissions, for one day on March 30th. Well over a hundred of Oxfordshire's lowest paid and angriest health workers attended a mass meeting to hear that almost all the region's clerical staff had voted for a one day strike. The longest serving clerical workers, whose responsibilities include juggling patient admissions with spare beds, can only expect £6,235, that's even after 25 years' experience. The region's 600 clerical staff want at least another £700 a year. There's obviously frustration on the part of low paid women members of NALGO and some of our NUPE colleagues, and we are pleasantly surprised that they felt = and I wish now to express frustration at that response of management to break off local negotiations on their grading structure. NALGO's members, who are mostly women, are bitter that they've been pushed to take industrial action. Well all the nurses and the doctors, every time there's pay rises they all seem to get it. The secretaries have got it this time, and we are just left at the bottom of the ladder again. We're just being ignored basically. I've worked in for 30 years and lots of us have worked for over 25 years and we do know that they are bringing in trainees in on higher salaries than ourselves, which obviously is quite upsetting when you've worked a long time. The Health Authority say they are waiting for the results of national pay talks before coming to an agreement with their clerical workers. Meanwhile, the women are to walk out en masse next Thursday. Patients shouldn't be affected, NALGO say they'll be providing emergency cover. One of Gloucester's most famous landmarks, the cathedral, has a new cross. It was put in place and then dedicated by the Dean of the Cathedral during a unique ceremony high above the city. Tina Monahan reports. It turned out to be one of the windiest days of the year for the delicate process of winching the three ton cross to the west end of the cathedral nave. Once the cross was in place, the Dean of the Cathedral held a service of dedication. We dedicate this cross to be to all a symbol of his suffering and his victory. In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Amen. The original cross had been in place since the fifteenth century, but finally fell victim to the elements. It's just erosion over the years. Wind, rain, chemical erosion gradually wear into it and the stone that they used for some of the repair of the cathedral in the years gone by hasn't worn as well as we would have hoped. How much did it cost? I don't know that we can cost each individual item, but the whole work of reglazing and doing the parapet on the west front has cost us £80,000. And you're pleased with the result? Very, indeed, yes. The new cross was made by a specialist team of cathedral stone masons and has used up the last of the cathedral's restoration fund. Any further work is now dependent on a new £4 million appeal, which was launched at the end of last year. A rather different way of looking at the term high church, I think. After the break I'll be speaking to the Gloucester rugby player, Mike Teague, about his selection for the British Lions Tour of Australia. Also, the peacock that landed right on time and the key to a bizarre hobby for one security minded youngster. Welcome back. The countdown to Gloucester Rugby Club's semi-final got off to a flying start to day with the news that forward, Mike Teague, has been selected to go on the British Lions seven week tour of Australia this summer. I'll be talking to Mike in a minute. First, a look ahead to the cup game with Bath on Saturday, which Mike won't be able to take part in because of a recent injury. Tim Russon has been to the King's Home ground to preview the match. Well King's Home looks quiet enough at the moment, but Saturday this will be a cauldron of cup rugby. Ten and a half thousand fans will pack in here for the Pilkington Cup semi-final. It's a sell-out and in Gloucester a ticket to the match is worth more than gold. Gloucester versus Bath is the crunch game that everyone hoped was safe for the final at Twickenham. Matches between the two teams produce stirring football. Some think Bath unbeatable. Not the whites. They are one a few sides that have beat them this season, 18:12 the score, music to the Gloucester fans' ears. So what plans have the King's Home men got for the cup? Well plans as such, I think, will revolve round the forwards because every time we've done well against Bath we've done well up front and at this moment in time the Gloucester pack is going extremely well. I think the key to it has been in the past that if we can establish a platform with the front five and get our back row really involved with the support play that they can produce, Bath going backwards certainly don't look as strong as when they are coming at us. Bath have already put pay to two Central South sides; they demolished Oxford 82:9 and then hit Hereford for 48 points. This has been their trail to the semi-final, Bristol being the hardest test, but a look at the Bath cup record shows you what great cup campaigners they are. The white burst into real form at the right time for the cup. This new year win at Pontypool set the ball rolling. Gloucester's cup record is one of the best in the country. And here's how they made it to the semi-finals; not an easy run, Wakefield was their last step. Is there a feeling that this could be Gloucester's year? There's a definite feeling amongst the players. It's strange that there are an awful lot of our team who have never played at Twickenham, because the traditional Harlequins fixture at the beginning of the season has now been taken over by League fixtures and they are now played at the Harlequins ground The Stoop . So a lot of them have never played at Twickenham and that's a big incentive for them together. The bad news is that England forward, Mike Teague, is ruled out through injury, but the good news top tri-scorer Nick Price will be fit as the Whites reach out for Twickenham and the Cup Final. Well Gloucester aren't the only Central South hoping for cup glory. Hereford United are just two steps away from Wembley and the final of the Sherpa Van trophy competition. Tonight, at Edgar Street, they tackle Wolves in the regional semi-final. We should have some goals; the leagues top two goal scorers are on show. United's Phil Stant has hit 28; Steve Bull of Wolves has cracked 40. And some game in prospect. We'll have a report on that match in our late bulletin, but from Gloucester now goodbye. And we'll wish Gloucester well. Now in our Gloucester studio is Mike Teague. Mike, you've only just made a come back really this year on the England side and everything. It must be something of a surprise today the announcement? Well obviously it is erm it is a surprise, but I'm obviously delighted to be erm to be selected. You're still looking a bit rough after the accident on Saturday. How are you recovering from that? Well, not too bad really, it's erm I can only describe it has having erm a huge hangover, which erm which I'm used to anyway, so erm you know I'm obviously a bit disappointed with the way things went, but erm you know that's party of Rugby. Mhm. So, hopefully things are going to work out well in Australia. What sort of competition do you think you're going to be up against there? I think obviously erm as they've already shown when they came over last year, that they are very very big, very physical, and erm there are there are erm a fast pacy outfit, but erm I think erm obviously with the players that are selected, that we can obviously cope with that. I'm sure the England side are going to be just as tough though, aren't they? I understand today that you've been celebrating with tea. Why not champagne? Well erm according to erm Ben Gil the R F U doctor, he's told me erm no alcohol and he stressed that and said that erm in your case no alcohol for a while. So I presume that means about a week. So I'll have to have a belated erm celebration. And I hope we'll be seeing you back on the field soon. Thank you very much. I wish you all the best in Australia. Cheers for now. Thanks very much. Thank you. An unholy row has blown up over a derelict house and a garden within Hereford Cathedral Close. Local Conservatives want to sell to a property developer so he can erect two shops, but lovers of Elgar's music say the builders would be destroying the peaceful haven where the composer wrote his Enigma Variations. This report now from John Kane. The local Conservatives bought the old Organist House in 1930, and apart from holding the odd meeting, they haven't used the building much and it's now derelict. In 1898 the then organist, Dr. George Robert Sinclair, entertained his friend Edward Elgar, and while he was there he wrote his famous Enigma Variations. Now the Conservatives want to sell off the building and develop part of the land. Now the Conservative Club realize that the can't afford to do it up. They've had an independent survey. So they've got to do something with it and at some time have a suitable return to the club and their forefathers who left this property. Elgar historian, Jacob O'Callaghan, isn't too pleased with the suggestion that two shops should be built on the site. He says the house in steeped in history. The house that you see behind belonged to Dr. Sinclair, organist of Hereford Cathedral and one of Elgar's best friends, and he had a dog called Dan, who was quite a character in his own right. He used to be at the Cathedral at rehearsals and growl if some things were out of tune. Elgar wasn't allowed a dog by his wife at the time and he sort of adopted Dan and was fascinated by him. One day they went for a walk with Sinclair along by the river. Dan fell into the water and paddled out and Sinclair said ‘could you set that to music Elgar?’ and Elgar went ahead. And with the help of Dan the dog, Elgar wrote his eleventh Enigma Variation. You can hear the dog paddling in the river Wye. He comes out, he shakes himself and gives a growl. This garden's so important I am sorry to see people coming here and hearing instead of the silence which inspired some of the world's greatest music the jangling of cash tills in shops. So you just don't want anything commercial; it should be the way Elgar knew it? I think it should be left as a tribute to Elgar and his music. Ask most people the time of day and they'll usually look at a watch or a clock. The exception is a Warwickshire shopping centre where they look at a peacock when they want to know the time. Frazer Shepherd explains more. Here he is, keeping a watchful eye on the crowds at the Royal Priors shopping centre in Leamington Spa. Like some distant cousin of Emu, he stands majestic against a background of Warwick Castle, the home of his real- life counterparts. It look craftsmen in Cheltenham a year to build the peacock, who is valued at nearly £100,000. He has a computer brain, controlling the pneumatics inside that bring him to life. There's an ordinary clock on his pedestal, and you'll see why in a moment. Every hour we're treated to a view of his striking feathers, all fourteen feet of them. And just to help you tell the time there are these unidentified flying objects in little nests with numbers on. The trick is simply to add up the numbers. Doesn't time fly? Now obsession with locking up has led to a very special door opening for a seven year old boy with a very unusual hobby. He spends all his pocket money on padlocks, and for a birthday treat for him today the red carpet was laid out for him at the Chubb Lock Factory in Wolverhampton. Jack Dow is seven years old today. Not for him a trip to the cinema, or a visit to the local zoo. When asked what he wanted for his birthday, he said a visit to the lock factory. No sooner said than done. Jack has had a fascination with locks ever since he was four. At his home at Tackley in Oxfordshire, his parents have given him a special shed to play in, with his own lock and key of course. So far, he's collected a total of 25 locks and more than 100 keys, and while his family and friends are slightly bemused by his hobby, there have been times when it's caused them a little more than amusement. Well often I might see somebody waving out by the gate frantically trying to get in where he's put one of his different size padlocks round the gate, the back gate and the front gate, and often if we need to feed the cat he's padlocked all the different padlocks round the kitchen cupboards erm we've been unable to get the cat food out, so we've had to go off in the car and bring him back from a friend because he's the only one who knows which key goes with which padlock to undo all the cupboards. Despite these minor domestic headaches, it was decided to give him a special birthday treat of a guided tour of the Chubb Factory to decide exactly how all those interesting little gadgets actually work and no doubt to take away a few tips as well. Put the spring in there, right,in that way, right. Get your levers, right, put it in the bottom, right, then that one, then that one. Well, Mr Davis, you've given Jack some fairly difficult tuition today, what do you reckon? I think that erm he's almost there, we shall be able to award him his proficiency badge for his locksmithing after a few more tests. He's done extremely well, beyond our expectations. The real key question of course was what did Jack think of it all. It was great. Tell me what you want to be when you grow up. Lockman. Jack's parents are now hoping his obsession with locks and keys will eventually open the door to a career which is both safe and secure. Today's satellite pictures show just why it's felt so cold. And we're promised more winter weather tonight. The sequence shows the partly clear skies that moved into central England this afternoon as the earlier band of rain cleared away eastward, but that large area of speckled cloud northwest of Ireland will bring wintry showers tonight. It'll be cold, with a widespread frost and some isolated show showers. The temperature will fall to minus one Celsius and that's 30 Fahrenheit, so if you're out driving tonight beware of icy patches on untreated roads. Tomorrow will start frosty, but the mostly sunny skies will soon make it feel warmer. There'll be some cloud later, although it will remain dry. As we move into the afternoon, the cloud will spread across the region, giving some rain later, with the best of the weather along the east coast. Everywhere will feel cold with a top temperature of 8 Celsius, 46 Fahrenheit. Victim of arson. Her parents say the man who did it should have been gaoled for life. All clear, our water can now be drunk without boiling. And the new arrivals, just in time for Easter. Good evening. First tonight, a couple have criticised the gaol sentence handed out to an arsonist, whose attack on their home left their five year old daughter maimed and disfigured. They say he could be a free man within five years, while their daughter's injuries have changed her life. This report from Simon Harris. Five year old Chloe Robinson will never have a normal life. Her left hand has been amputated and for the rest of her childhood she faces painful plastic surgery. A year ago Chloe was a pretty little girl and she would be now but for this man, eighteen year old Jason Levy. In May last year he broke into the family's him in Cheltenham, but he found nothing he wanted, so he set the house on fire. Chloe and her mum and dad were trapped in a bedroom. By the time Chloe was rescued she'd been horribly burned. She didn't look like Chloe. She was just covered in dressings and things. Very black crystal . We couldn't believe it. It was awful. Surgeons couldn't save Chloe's left hand; her right hand is badly disfigured and her face is literally having to be rebuilt. Jason Levy finally admitted what he'd done and in court pleaded guilty to arson. The judge, Mr Justice French, gaoled him for eight years. Chloe's parents say it's a sentence that's totally inadequate. Well I just feel no matter sentence he serves he's always going to be that he's left my daughter with a life sentence. The anger's gone really, I suppose. Time's gone on. My husband still feels very cross. erm we just want to go forward now, push it all behind us. How do you cope? Chloe makes us cope. Because she's such a happy child and she copes with all the thing she has to have done. She keeps us going. The plastic surgeons have warned the Robinsons that Chloe can never look as she did. She has to wear an artificial arm and mask to protect the skin on her face. But despite her appalling injuries, her parents have fought to send her to an ordinary school. You've been a very brave little girl, haven't you? Yes. Do all your friends know you've been brave? Yes. Chloe's courage is matched by that of her parents. They in turn say they've had tremendous support from hospital staff and the people of Cheltenham. What's the hardest part for you? Seeing my daughter like this. Especially when she's in bed. You go to tuck her up and you see what she has. The water from your taps is now safe to drink, and that's official. After a month-long pollution scare, Thames Water Authority says it is no longer necessary to boil water. A germ found in Farmoor Reservoir near Oxford has resulted in dozens of cases of stomach pains and diarrhoea and led to an order for all drinking water to be boiled before use. This afternoon the order was lifted. Gary Cotterill reports. Experts meeting at Thames Water's Oxford Headquarters today are about to give Farmoor Reservoir a clean bill of health. Because of the reduction in the cases of cryptosporidiosis, we are able to withdraw the notice that we previously given in respect of boiling water. So as far as everyone is concerned at home, that's as you were. That's absolutely true, we are back to our normal situation now. Last month, though, it was a different story. The saga started in early February when medical experts noticed an increase in illness, especially in the Swindon area. Then on February 21st the presence of the organism cryptosporidium was confirmed at Farmoor Reservoir and 600,000 customers were told to boil all drinking water. The next day cryptosporidium was also discovered at nearby Swinford Treatment Works. On February 28th the issue was raised in the House of Commons and an independent enquiry was launched. By March 10th the situation seems to be improving, with the number of recorded victims down 75 per cent. On March 20th victims were advised to take legal action against the Water Authority, and now today the boiling order is removed. Water is back to normal. The reservoir now, you are saying, is clear? Absolutely so. Can you tell us anything about the enquiries that are going on? Yes. There are two enquiries. One which was initiated by Thames Water, which Mr Dick is carrying out. That one will be completed I imagine within the next couple of weeks. The other one is in fact initiated by the Department of Health and that one, inevitably, will take longer. So, for the first time in nearly four weeks, 600,000 Thames Water customers can drink direct from their taps. The Water Authority says the situation will continue to be closely monitored, and there will be full liaison with local Health Officials. In a statement this evening, Thames Water apologized for the inconvenience caused, but said they must always give the welfare of their customers the highest priority. The man accused of murdering Marie Wilkes has gone on hunger strike in prison. Twenty-two year old Marie, who is expecting her second child, was killed on the M 50 motorway near Twinning in Gloucestershire last June. Thirty-six year old labourer, Edward Browning, is on remand at Winsone Green Prison in Birmingham awaiting trial. He's on hunger strike in protest at the Home Secretary refusal to move him to Cardiff gaol near his home at Treorky in mid-Glamorgan. A construction company says it may sue a local authority which is trying to prevent its demolishing a hotel. Local people at Nailsworth in Gloucestershire were celebrating today after Stroud Council extended a conservation area to include the building, the George Hotel. Protestors have successfully prevented the demolition men from starting their work, but the firm which owns the hotel MacCarthy and Stone, says its angry that, despite months of consultations with the Council, it was never told the buildings might get protected status. A nature lover who created a lake on land to attract wildlife has been ordered to destroy his project after angering Lord Hanson. The millionaire boss of The Hanson Trust, who lives downstream from the lake, claimed it ruined the flow of the river through his land. Ann Lucas reports. David Allen was so devoted to his project he dared take Lord Hanson to court, where the judge ordered him to destroy the weir he built on the river Winterbourne in Berkshire. He has spent thousands creating a lake to attract wild birds. Many, many species of different birds have come; Kingfishers, Teal, Widgeon, Tufted,Patchog , Mandarin, wild duck, wild geese, swans, the lot. Its unbelievable; the pleasure is absolutely fantastic, one doesn't realize it. It's a miniature Slimbridge. But he admits he didn't follow the correct legal procedures before diverting the river. Now he has six months to set things right, which at least gives the ducks time to hatch their eggs and raise their families. One of the most famous names in British sports car history is being reborn. Despite legal battles over the use of the name, the Healey lives again; twenty-two years since the last one was built. This report from Tim Hurst. The builders of the new car are confident they'll win. They have the backing of the Healey family, and the new car, the Healey 3500, does look remarkably like its ancestor, the Healey 3000, last produced at Abingdon in 1967. The 3500 and its sister, the Healey Silverstone, have been developed at Slimbridge in Gloucestershire. Donald Healey, who designed and built the first Healeys in the 1940s, also worked on the new design details. His name was associated with sports cars for 20 years, and when he died last year his son became head of the family and a director of the new Healey Company. I think current motor cars will become you know sort of erm boxes all looking sort of the same, nothing outstanding. I suppose you except such motor cars as the Jaguar from this and Ferraris and Rolls Royce, but the majority of cars available to the public are very dull. I am sure they provide very economical motoring, but no-one gets much enjoyment out of it shall I say. But they will be expensive; somewhere between £24,000 to £35,000. For that 200 new owners every year will get V8 power, 0 to 60 in 6 seconds and a top speed of 140. Thirsty though, around 23 miles to the gallon. It's an all British car erm except for the Japanese tape deck, and the makers believe there are enough people around who still want to drive with the top down and the wind in their hair, people who are prepared to risk the weather, as well as an overdraft, to get behind the wheel of a Healey again. Hundreds of enthusiasts maintain their old Healeys in showroom condition because they feel that there's never been another car like it. Well, now there is, as long as they're allowed to go on calling it a Healey. It looks a bit chilly, and a team of balloonists have been feeling rather chilly today and have been spending most of the day in a fridge. They are trying to prepare themselves for a flight to the North Pole. The ironic thing is that the flight is to publicize damage to the ozone layer and it's gas from fridges that causes most of that damage. This report from Martin Dawes. It may be spring outside, but inside this cold storage shed it's permanently Arctic. The balloonists will need the clothes that make them resemble the Michelin man. Already experienced in flight, next month they'll be going over the North Pole. Something no-one has done in a balloon before. It's minus 20 in the shed; it will be three times worse at the North Pole. It's going to be much colder at altitude than on the ground, but one help is the fact that you move with the wind, so you don't get so much of a wind chill factor as you are on the ground, and we'll be putting on extra layers when we actually take off, so we hope we'll be warm enough. The flight is the publicize the threat to the earth's ozone layer. Many aerosols are now atmosphere friendly, but refrigerators are still using damaging chemicals. There's a certain poetry for the couple in using a giant refrigerator to boost their adopted cause. The ozone layer, as an environmental issue, is the most essential at the moment, and can be fixed tomorrow if everyone wanted. On the Arctic flight it won't be the air temperature that'll be the main danger. Landing in the sea could kill in seconds. In part two soccer action on the pitch, and behind the scenes the police operation to control the crowds. And remember this lot? We'll be monkeying about with them after the break. Welcome back. Well Easter traditionally brings lots of sport, and tonight we're off to the River Thames to preview one of the big events of the year, the University Boat Race. Tim Russon is down there and he sends this report from the banks of the Thames. On Saturday lunchtime people will be standing six and seven deep here as the crews from Oxford and Cambridge take to the Thames for the 135th University Boat Race. In a few moments we'll be joined by Dan Topolski, a man who did more for Oxford rowing than anyone else. But first let's go out onto the river to see how the Oxford Blue boat has been shaping. Oxford ready. On your marks , go. The hard work has been done. Muscles have been stretched and strengthened. The stamina has been topped up and tactics have been taught. All that's needed now is the finishing touches. This morning it was starts from the state boat; many a race has been won in the first hundred yards or so, and Oxford, as always, are coached and prepared for everything. On Saturday thousands will line the riverbanks. Around 12 million more will tune in to watch or listen to the Boat Race. Both crews have been training for months. Every stroke they make has been monitored. Perfection is the name of the game. The training has gone well all year and erm they are coming on just right for the race. Is the even in weights, age, experience? It should be a close race on paper, but when it comes down to it we'll see what happens. I think we're coming together well now and feeling pretty confident about the whole thing. For the last two weeks we've been sort of fine tuning and now everything's going to plan. It should be a good race. So, who's going to win? Well, Oxford have been the favourites for months; they always are, but as the tide changes so do their chances. Watching on for the past few weeks have been a small handful of experts, among them Jim Railton of The Times, who's been following the Boat Race for twenty years. I think Oxford have the better stride, but quite clearly they lack the power that Cambridge have. I think much will depend on the weather, but Cambridge really have a very big chance of winning this boat race. If the wind blows and the water's rough, Oxford are fancied to win. Some reckon Cambridge could even sink. But if the sun shines and the water's calm, Cambridge could swing the race their way. Well the Boat Race has been livened up this year with the publication of True Blue. It's all about the American mutiny of two years ago, written by Dan Topolski, who was chief coach then. Dan, could I ask you first of all how much the mutiny livened the old Boat Race up? There's always, you know, through the years there's always been something, some bit of drama, and particularly in the last ten years. Who do you fancy this year? I think they are very even crews. erm They are even in terms of age and experience erm Cambridge are considerably heavier erm but the erm a lot of the weight is very young erm so there's sort of inexperience there. I would tip Oxford because they look pretty charged up and tough. Thanks very much indeed, Dan. While the Boat Race fans are on the Thames towpath here, the soccer supporters will be out on the terraces this Easter, and no-one will be shouting louder than at the County ground, where Swindon are taking on West Bromwich Albion. Here's a round-up of all the soccer news. Starting with Hereford's dreams of reaching Wembley in the Sherpa Van trophy which were blown away last night by the Wolves. The third division leaders took the lead after 35 minutes, Andy Much the scorer. Minutes later the Wolves struck again, with the amazing Steve Bull scoring his 31st goal of the season, not one of the better ones though with the Hereford defence in a tangle. United put up a brave fight and a little more luck in the second half might have brought them a goal. Even in the dying minutes Phil Stand was still fighting hard to give them a goal. It's a busy Easter for all our soccer sides. The big game is at the County Ground. The Swindon win over Bournemouth found them the performance of the week award. Gavin Barnes has gone to Bournemouth for £100,000 today, but Swindon will be at full strength on Saturday. And from soccer to speedway, the season starts tomorrow and there's plenty of racing this weekend. Another Easter highlight is Gloucester's cup semi-final against Bath. I wonder what price the bookies would give us for a Central South treble; that's Oxford to win the Boat Race, Gloucester to reach the Cup Final and Swindon to beat West Brom. We're back on Tuesday. Hopefully to count the winnings. Well, as Hereford United were battling against on the pitch, behind the scenes West Mercia Police were mounting a major operation to control the crowd and prevent battles off the pitch between rival fans. John Kane joined them before the start of the match. A seven forty-five kick off. Wolverhampton Wanderers would have been visiting Hereford United in the semi-final of the Sherpa Van Trophy Two hours before kick off Chief Inspector Tony Judge briefs some of the 100 or so officers. So please, ladies and gentlemen, when you speak to the supporters, as I know you always do, let's keep it on a friendly basis. We're not expecting trouble from them and we're there to help and direct them into the areas where they can get into the ground. Tonight's operation will be the biggest mounted by West Mercia Police at the Hereford ground. Wolves' fans are coming with not the best of reputations. Already there have been reports of ticket forging and some Wolves fans have been drinking in the city since lunchtime. So what kind of result would the police like. Yes, well, being local men we're obviously there to protect but erm as a police officer sometimes it is advantageous if those who have the strongest following win. And by now the strongest following are pouring into the ground and the area known as The Cage is almost solid. To stop potential troublemakers extra lighting has been installed and officers keep watch from afar using high powered video cameras. So the club think the police do a good job? Oh yes, smashing, I mean its a combination between police and stewards and erm cos in a way they're to nothing aren't they. If there's too many policemen here people say waste of ratepayers' money Yes, yes, a total no win situation. And sadly last night Hereford were in a no win situation as Wolves beat them 2:0. After the match the police managed to keep the fans separated and there was very little trouble, but 28 were arrested and this time Wolves' fans can't really take the blame. Yes, of the 28 it looks at the moment as if there are only 4 from the Wolves area. Tell me about some of those incidents. Well, the most serious one, I suppose, is that there were some people in a car driving down the bottom end of Commerical Street and they had their windows broken by stones thrown by Hereford lads. Often police at the match never really get a chance to see the game. Did Chris Fairburn know the final score? Yes, I know that Wolverhampton won, but I can't tell you the actual score. Police had to abandon a car chase after a serious of blunders. Several officers set out when a car was stolen from Gloucester City centre when a pedestrian had his foot crushed by a police car, then another vehicle crashed into the stolen Rapier. Finally, two officers were mauled by their own subject. A suspect escaped on foot. Well, with the Easter holidays now upon us our feathered friends in the countryside have decided to make their seasonal contribution. Hundreds of chicks and ducklings have been hatching out in plenty of time for the seasonal cheer, as Martin Graham-Scott found out. Easter is always a busy time at Folly Farm at Bourton-on-the-Water. All of a sudden there's a lot of noise activity. 50 chicks and ducklings have decided it's time to make an impression on the world. This morning Tom Bartlett, the farm's owner, proudly showed off his new arrivals to some fascinated visitors. We've got a little chick here look. There you see all the feathers down his leg. That's what we call a little chick erm and it comes from in China and don't feel him too tight; just feel how warm he is, do you see, isn't he lovely? What's he like to hold? Is he cuddly? What do you like about him? erm I like his head because it's all soft. Very cuddly. Tom has about 140 rare breeds of ducks and geese altogether. Thankfully none of them will end up on the table. They're produced exclusively as pets. A lot of these breeds come from Britain; they are mostly British, and when you think of seeing the mull, as we do around the countryside, coming back to their proper standard, it gives me considerable pleasure. Glad to hear they are not going to end up on the table. Now then, you don't have to admit your age, but hands up if you remember these lads: Freezing off Monkees, welcome to Gloucester, some of the Monkees, yes you're not all here. Davy we can't find. Actually Davy is underneath the picture here, he's lost he He's stuck in the traffic. from Gloucester, he thought it meant Glasgow. Only a minute 45 it's hard enough. Stop talking about it and we might have more time. The seconds are ticking away. I'm sorry it's raining, it's a bit miserable isn't it? Terrible. My life is fading before my eyes. How is the show going down? Very well, very well. I mean you're in Gloucester in about an hour's time Can we make a joke on that, how can you They love us And what are the Monkees fans like now. Are they a new generation of Monkees fans? Well, they've usually got, you know, two ears, a couple of eyes Humanoid, usually humanoid We don't have too many A few reptiles, some amphibians We do have some pre-natal fans, however. There's some very large bellies. Are there old people? No, very large bellies. In the bellies, pre-natal. Young kids, old kids? Your parents, your mother in fact, is going to love our show tonight. Is that the problem, or is that the success, that the Monkees just appeal to everyone? Yes, yes, yes. Vegetables, we have lots of vegetables. Broccoli in the audience. I am sure You're in Gloucester tonight, in Oxford on Sunday, aren't you? Are you going to do another world tour?— I know that time's ticking away. We're going to Japan, Holland and America. Mars. Yes, we're going to open up a resort on Mars. Yes. We've got to rush back to the studio in Abingdon now. Thank you very much indeed for talking to us. Bye. Thank you. Farewell. Here we go. Bye, bye. Bye, bye. Well they haven't aged a bit, but maybe that's because I have. The satellite picture gives us a good indication of what's to come this weekend. You can see from the sequence that cloud has spread over most of the region today, with just the occasional break letting the sun shine through. The thicker cloud out in the Atlantic will bring rain to all parts of the region tonight, but the clear skies further west will replace the cloud and rain tomorrow. Tonight thunder cloud will thicken and a band of rain will move steadily across the region. The minimum temperature tonight will be 5 Celsius, 41 Fahrenheit, with a strong south-westerly wind. The rain will have cleared by tomorrow morning, giving a bright sunny start to the day, although it will be a while before it warms up. The afternoon will remain partly sunny, but temperatures will only rise to 9 Celsius, 48 Fahrenheit and their could be an occasional shower. Now the main national news. There's evidence of a new breech of security at Heathrow as airlines are warned of an Easter hijack threat. There are to be new rules for lorries carrying explosives following yesterday's explosion at Peterborough. Cocaine Roy Garner gets a 22 year sentence for smuggling £100 million worth of drug into Britain. The Scottish M P, Robert MacTaggert, has died. He was MP for Glasgow Central for nine years. A church minister has called for the death penalty for terrorists at the funeral of an Ulster policeman. The inflation rate is up to 7.8 per cent, dashing hopes of an early cut in interest rates, and the FTSE 100 Index is up 8.6 at 2,057.2. Well, if you're about to set off for your Easter weekend, do take care on the roads. There are long tail backs on the M 4 and the M 40. Also, don't forget on Saturday night to put your clocks forward. It's this weekend that they go forward. That's it from Cathy and I for now. The late news is at 10.30, but for now goodbye, we'll be back on Tuesday. Bye, bye. Daughter of wealthy farming family found dead in double shooting. Top army college is at risk from terrorists say villagers found in a gypsy camp. And the Swedish firm that's using paper to make their offices green. Good evening. First tonight the daughter of a millionaire farmer has been beaten and shot to death. Her boyfriend is also dead, killed by a shotgun. Their bodies have been found in a secluded house with a shotgun lying nearby, and detectives are trying to piece together how they died. As Tim Hurst reports, they don't believe anyone else was involved. A 999 call brought police and ambulancemen to an isolated house at Upton St. Leonards near Gloucester shortly after 2 o'clock this morning. They found the body of Lucy Chamberlain in the grounds. She was 19, the daughter of one of the county's leading farming families. She was a student studying at Oxford. At a nearby door, half in the house and half out of the house, they found the body of her boyfriend, Jamie Saunders, who was 22 and who lived at the house with his mother. A shotgun was found by his body. Absolutely shocked and devastated. Lucy Chamberlain was a member of the Gloucestershire family which owns Ashleworth Court near Tewkesbury. She lived there with her family, some of whom are on a skiing holiday in Europe. They're being told by Lucy's father, who flew out to see them this morning. Lucy's grandfather is well known in the county. He's the leader of Tewkesbury Borough Council, and today too upset to talk of his granddaughter's death. Lucy was well know in Ashleworth, where she was a regular in the local pub. She used to come in here drinking. I think she is a very nice young lady, very nice. Did she come in on her own, or with friends? With friends. She used to come in with friends, occasionally, to have a drink and that all together. I think she was a very nice girl. I'm very surprised it happened. Police have spoken to both families and to friends of the couple. They want to know the background to Lucy's visit to Upton St. Leonards last night. An inquest into the deaths of the couple was opened this afternoon. There the police said that Lucy Chamberlain had been identified after the shooting by documents in her handbag and by her distinctive clothing; clothing later confirmed by her father in a telephone call from the police. Lucy Chamberlain had died by blows from a blunt instrument, as well as from a shotgun wound. Jamie Saunders was identified after the shooting by a neighbour. He had died from a shotgun would. The inquest was adjourned until next month. Oxfordshire is the most violent county in England when it comes to rural violence. Berkshire comes a close second. The figures are published in a Home Office Report out today. It was commissioned because of the increasing number of gang fights involving so-called lager louts in country towns. Debbie Kelly reports. Fights between rival gangs of lager louts were turning town centres into no-go areas on Friday and Saturday nights, so a report was commissioned. Its findings: more violent crimes were committed in Oxfordshire per head of the population than anywhere else in Britain. Berkshire comes a close second. Few of Oxfordshire's towns have escaped the violence. Two policemen were hurt when 40 youths fought in the centre of Wallingford. On New Year's Eve in Witney another two officers were injured in a fight. Thames Valley Police Force says it needs 800 more officers to cope with rising crime, starting with 200 this year. They've been given 44. But the Home Office report suggests other ways of tackling the problem: more low and non-alcohol drinks on sale. Already many Oxfordshire pubs run an identity card scheme. Youngsters have to prove they're over 18 before they're served. But the report says schemes should be treated with caution because troublemakers just go and buy alcohol elsewhere. Many landlords feel the pubs have done their bit. I don't think it's the publicans. I think that maybe the magistrates are not using enough deterrent shall we say. The report suggests a major problem is that young people are bored, with nowhere to go. They're not old enough to go to the pubs, or they don't seem old enough, so they just go down the park and get drunk. People just go wild and that because there's nothing to do. The Council are not prepared to build something, even sports centres and that are not open late nowadays and people can't go in. Well the Government's paper recognizes the lack of facilities which those youngsters were talking about and the link with late night violence. House of Commons leader, John Wakeham, who's heading the committee that's looking at the problem says it's an issue which must be tackled locally. What we want local communities to do is to get together and look at the situation on the ground, that is to say the council, the police, the magistrates, the brewers, people who run fast food shops, the planners. All of them have got a part to play, because we believe there are erm it's a national problem, but the solutions are in each community different and we need the community to look at a situation and see what can be done on the ground, and I can give many examples of the sort of thing one has in mind. Are we talking about more facilities, or more controls on the What sort of thing — for instance, one of the problems in some areas might be that the buses erm don't erm that there is an insufficient bus service late in the evening, so a lot of kids hang about waiting for a bus and get into trouble waiting. In another area it may be that all the fast food shops are all close to each other and so there is bound to be a congestion when the pubs empty. If they could be spaced out a bit, then it would probably be easier and less likely to be trouble. Another place, for example, it might be a good idea to stagger the times of closing of late night discos and so on so that everybody doesn't come out all at once . But we don't believe that those sort of problems can be solved centrally, we believe that local communities can look at their own areas and see what they can do to lessen the problem. A Cheltenham man has been sent to gaol for two months after breaking a policeman's nose. Gloucester Crown Court heard that 24 year old Michael Jones headbutted and punched PC Kevin Frost as he tried to arrest him on suspicion of damaging a burger bar in Cheltenham. Jones pleaded guilty to unlawfully wounding PC Frost. Judge Gabriel Hatton said anyone who assaulted the police must go to gaol. Villagers believe that a proposed gypsy camp could serve as a base for a terrorist attack on a military college in Oxfordshire. County planners are looking at two fields near Watchfield. Both are within a quarter of a mile of the Royal Military College of Science. The college is attended by military personnel and civil servants, and frequently visited by V I Ps and politicians. The parish council say they're all potential targets. Cathy Alexander reports. The two sites earmarked as possible gypsy camps are within easy view of the college. They are also close to the homes of staff and their families. The college trains civil servants, Ministry of Defence staff and military personnel in both technical and military matters. It attracts many V I Ps, high ranking serving officers and politicians. All this, say people living in the nearby village of Watchfield, make the college a prime terrorist target. Not 30 miles away from here, at Chippenham, they erm three members, believed to be from the I R A, attempted to assassinate the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, Tom King. They used as the base for their attack a campsite in the vicinity. Is it any wonder that we are nervous about having a campsite, to which anyone can come, located so close to members of this community. The villagers are not alone in their concern. The College itself has warned the County Council that such a camp could undermine security because the I R A could use it as a cover while surveying the staff and premises. Oxfordshire already has permanent sites for long-stay gypsies in the district. The Watchfield camp would be for travellers passing through the area. The Council say it would only be temporary, five years maximum, until another permanent site is found. They also stress that the gypsy families would be registered, minimising any security risk. They'll make their final decision on the site later this year. River pollution across the region has reached record levels, and a Government Minister has warned farmers who dump their waste in the waterways to clean up their act. He has told them there's no excuse and tough new action will be taken against those who persist in damaging the environment. This report from David Watson. Today's 48 page report on the state of water pollution paints a depressing picture. Despite a concerted Government-initiated campaign to encourage farmers to clean up their act, the number of reported cases of pollution has risen to record levels. Dairy and beef farming continued to be the biggest culprits. There's concern too about pesticides, silage effluent and slurry waste. The report was issued on the day the farming industry began its two-day annual event for effluent management. The downpour seemed to add further to the depressing conclusions of the report. We believe that farmers should take an increased interest now in these matters because the erm general public are concerned about the rising instance of pollution and I think that farmers owe it to the remainder of the community to come to places like Muck '89 and see for themselves exactly what new machinery is available to combat pollution. The Minister announced increased anti-pollution grants available to farmers, but wouldn't be drawn on their likely success. Speak to me in a year's time and I'll tell you. With water privatization looming large, and with prosecutions against farmers for pollution continuing at an arguably pitiful level, concern naturally focusses on the future accountability of water companies to keep water courses clean. But the Minister promised tough new legal penalties for all polluters. I think the court should take a far tougher attitude towards those people who break the rule. Even though it's bad news overall that the total number of incidents have increased again, there is good new in that there seems to be this increase in awareness and realization and commitment on the part of The Farming Union, the farmers and the water authorities to take the problem seriously and tackle it. It was a depressing start to Muck '89, farming's annual event where the latest technology to cope with pollution is on show. Among the hi-tech solutions reminders of the consequences of the problems. The is the organic to take out all the oxygen from the water. The more serious type of pollution, which is the silage liquor or farm slurry, that has such a immediately, it dies straightaway. Amid the disillusionment felt by some, that the minority of farmers are spoiling it for the rest in not keeping the environment clean, one manufacturer at least, hopes not dampened by the weather, felt there was room for optimism. Two barrels of chemicals felt off the back of a lorry without the driver noticing. The barrels of sodium hypochlorite, which is used to clean beer bottles, fell onto the side of the A 40 at Witney in Oxfordshire. The Fire Brigade's Chemical Unit was called out to identify the substances. They were found to be harmless and the drums were removed. And concern over highly toxic chemicals released during the bleaching of paper is having a big spin-off on a locally based company. It's been known for some time that dioxins are created when chlorine is used to make paper white, but in many situations it's been difficult to find substitutes. Now the Swindon based offshoot of a Swedish company is ready to exploit a new process. It'll be the first in the country to offer unbleached office paper. From Sweden, Martin Dawes reports. The paper industry is one of Sweden's biggest and most profitable. At the Hulsta Mill, near Stockholm, thousands of trees are brought in and stripped of their bark every day. But scientists began to realize that the industry was giving birth to a serious pollution hazard. It was the fishermen who first realized something was seriously wrong. The fish they were pulling out of the Swedish lakes were badly deformed. Chlorine used in the bleaching process was releasing dioxin into the lakes. It's one of the most dangerous substances known to man. In Sweden consumer pressure has a history of forcing changes on industry. At supermarkets there is now a range of unbleached paper goods, not just nappies. Milk cartons inside are a natural brown. They are only brown outside because they're printed. But one of the most lucrative markets, the office, has been untouched. It's worth millions. Computer printers everywhere are turning out miles of paper, but until recently the right quality of environment-friendly couldn't be made. At Hulsta they've developed a new process. They pulp all the wood, not just part of it; bleach it with hydrogen peroxide. The result, no dioxins and double the amount of paper produced from each tree. This paper saves forests. It uses mechanical pulp which has a high yield. But the Swindon company that'll be marketing the paper know the green issue won't be the top priority for their customers. Businessmen are fairly hard and they will want to make sure that the financial issues are covered, and I think those are the first interesting areas for them. Do you think the green issue will help? I believe that everybody in the world is becoming more conscious of the green issue. The paper has taken 20 per cent of the Swedish market in just four months. The Swindon company doesn't think it'll do anything so dramatic in Britain, but managers believe they are in a market with a huge potential. Strange to see Swindon in the snow and Sweden in bright sunshine. One of the most maligned concrete shopping centres is to get a facelift at a cost of £60 million. There'll be new shops, a new roof and better access. Local residents say about time too. Ken Barnes reports. Developers, councillors and shoppers all agree it's an eyesore. Friar's Square in the centre of Aylesbury is outdated and ugly, but a facelift is at hand although it'll set developers, Unilever and Friends Provident, back £60 million. Money well spent according to Aylesbury Vale District Council. Essentially it's 280,000 square feet of shopping; variety stores, a major departmental store. All covered over and providing an exciting theme shopping environment for the public, one that we think, when it's finished, will be comparable with any other shopping centre in the south east, any of the latest modern shopping centres. Friar's Square was opened in 1969, one of the early concrete town centre experiments. Lessons have been learned, but conservationists have long campaigned for a rethink. Architecturally it's not a pleasing sight. It's really a legacy of the Sixties. Shoppers don't like it. It doesn't complement the conservation area and I don't think it really attracts trade any more. It's really had its day. This place here is diabolical, it's terrible. Why? Well there's no amenities, nothing. It's open, you walk along and there's rain dripping down. Terrible. I just don't like the greyness, that's what I don't like. I don't know, I just don't like it. There's nothing here, is there? No, I suppose it isn't very attractive. There's no grass area. Just a few flowers would brighten it up a bit. Do you think it's an attractive building? What, Friar's Square? No, certainly not, do you? It's a very expensive patch-up, isn't it? It's not a patch-up. It's a major attack, if you like, on a 1969 shopping centre. The market will return to the cobbles on Market Square, and shops will stay open when construction starts early next year, with Friar's Square Mark Two ready for business in spring 1991. And plans have been revealed for a £16 million shopping market as part of the redevelopment scheme for Gloucester Docks. It'll be known as the Southgate Arcade. Designers say that while still reflecting the nautical air of a Victorian dockland, the new development will incorporate a number of American ideas, based on the festival markets found throughout the United States. Still to come, another of our special reports from Florida and the enlightened council that's collecting lamp posts. Find out why in part two. Welcome back. A night of second division football brought double success for our two Central South sides. Oxford Manager, Brian Houghton, was delighted to see United beat his old team, Hull City, 2:1. And there are no complaints either from Swindon's Lou Macarie as his side boosted their promotion hopes with a 1:0 win over Bradford City. Tim Russon reports. Oh to be at Swindon Town in springtime. Luckily it takes more than swirling snow and an Arctic wind to blow Swindon off course these days. After 10 minutes Town were ahead, Jones the maker, Duncan Sheerer the taker. Bradford were no pushovers and with the snow settling mistakes were always going to be made. Fortunately, Town were let off from this one. As always, Swindon piled on the pressure, racing, chasing and challenging for every ball, and shooting when they had the chance. A second or so before half time Bradford should have been dead and buried as Tommy Jones hit the post. In the second half, Swindon were again on top whilst Maclaren fired them up with a free kick. Now for those who think they know better than the rest, watch this tackle coming up. Would you have given a penalty? Watch it again. The referee turned away, leaving 6,000 Swindon fans, including Steve White, shaking their heads in disbelief. Mind you, Swindon only had themselves to blame for not getting more goals. One of these days some team is going to suffer when Town really get their shooting boots on. In the dying minutes Bradford had Lee Sinot send off for arguing, but by then Swindon were home and well almost dry. And three more points takes them right back into the battle for the promotion play-off. And now to the third of our special reports to find out what businesses from our region are learning from the Florida experience. Marconi Electronic Devices of Swindon have no real market in the U K for one of their most important products, an electronic tag used to keep tracks of people on remand or probation as an alternative to imprisonment. Florida was the first place in the world to try out the scheme, in spite the cynics who said it wouldn't work. Electronic tagging has proved successful in both the remand and probation services in West Palm Beach, Florida. For the defendant it means a life without the restrictions and overcrowding of prison, where the only contact with the family is at visiting times. It's helped many people start on a new life away from crime and that's good news for Marconi Electronic Devices of Swindon who design and manufacture the electronic tags. Originally they were cumbersome, but Marconi have now designed a lightweight model. The idea has had opponents who claim its an easy option for people who would otherwise be behind bars. Nevertheless, Judge Edward Garrison went against the general feeling of his colleagues and gave the idea its trial run. I don't believe the programme has taken off here as rapidly as it possibly could have had all the judges been as enthusiastic as I was in the beginning, but I would say 5 to 10 per cent of the sentenced people now are at least given that option. I started it basically on my own initiative and I said that for six months I would use it on people that I was going to sentence just to maintain a one judge control over the project and see how it was going. Before the end of the six months was up the other judges were trying to steal the devices and put their own people on it. For what sort of offences would you recommend it? We started out on a pilot project here in late 1984, with very minor offences. We were using it for drunk driving offenders and repeat traffic offenders, not so much because I felt they were the only people who were appropriate for it, but because we wanted to make sure we started with a group who were not likely to get into major trouble should the project not work out. As a sentencing judge you are always looking for options erm a variety of options to impose so that each individual sentence that you impose on a defendant is tailored to either the rehabilitation or the punishment ends of sentencing. From a practical standpoint we are suffering from some jail overcrowding problems here and certainly this was one option to take an offender who doesn't really belong behind iron bars and punish them at home, and from a personal standpoint I was sort of intrigued with the novelty of it all and the technology aspects of it. The scheme was extended to more serious offenders. A woman from Texas saw that there was a growing for advice for the police, probation service and private monitoring companies about in-house arrest, the American name for electronic tagging. It's her job to point out ways the system can be used to everyone's advantage. probation officer with the state in Texas and they decide they want a trial at monitoring and they ask if I would be interested and so we begin the programme, the first in-house operative programme in Texas, and we set up our programme from scratch and started just kind of working on trial and error trying to make the thing worked. What I have always said is that way you set up supervision behind the programme is the most crucial, so therefore if I can sit down and help them to set up the most strenuous type of supervision to go along with the equipment, then they feel safe and the community feel safer that none of them will go out and commit another crime. The British Government is eager to try out new methods for dealing with remand prisoners. The go-ahead has already been given to build privately run remand centres. Home Office officials from Britain went to West Palm Beach to see how electronic tagging systems are working there before introducing a trial run for people on probation in Nottingham later this year. If the Nottingham test proves as successful as the system seems to have worked in Florida, it could mean even better business for Marconi in Swindon who promise more jobs. In Swindon we are obviously delighted because all of the production of the equipment, all the design and the research, is all carried out at Swindon except for the software, which is provided by C S I. We actually believe that our dedicated production line will require expansion later in the year. Tomorrow night we hear about another business success story from the region, but again they sell most of their products in the U S A. The story of Oxford Medical tomorrow on Central News South. Gloucestershire's ambulance service is giving itself a new look. The traditional red stripe, common to all ambulance fleets, is to be replaced by a striking green and yellow design. It is thought that the old style ambulances are becoming indistinguishable from many normal commercial vehicles and that something more eyecatching was needed. Gloucestershire is the first of many ambulance services intending to adopt the new livery and they hope eventually to have it on their whole fleet. Sooner or later it seems everything becomes collectable; old telephone boxes, ancient park benches, and now the hunt is on for lamp posts, from all over the world, as Richard Hudson-Evans reports. The visitors are beginning to tie up in Stratford. Another tourist season is underway, but a vintage lamp post from Dublin is hardly very Shakespearean and yet it's all part of an illuminating plan. These are the first fruits of a beginning letter to all the London embassies. Too large to go in the diplomatic bags, the first monster packing cases containing old lamp posts have started to arrive in Warwickshire County Council's Highways Depot on Dunchurch. Just put it down on the side there. Don't drop it whatever you do. The old street lamps of the world are on their way to Stratford. Where's this one from then? I think this one's from Portugal. Wouldn't it be nice if overseas pilgrims to Shakespeare's town had something to remind them of home, and there's nothing quite so familiar as a lamp post just like the one on the corner back home in Lisbon perhaps. We started off by writing to the embassies in London and all of the embassies that we tried were very enthusiastic, but we were surprised a the first country that actually supplied a column was Hungary. Apparently in Hungary Shakespeare is very well read and very well thought of. So that was the first one to arrive crated up to the London embassy. We haven't as yet had one from America, or indeed from Japan, but we're hopeful. We hope that when the others are erected that they will consider themselves left out and perhaps join in. So, the appeal to visitors from Texas or Tokyo is ‘send Stratford your old lamp posts to complete the set’. I should think the dogs of Stratford-upon-Avon are delighted with the council's collection! Well, yesterday's forecast promised you snow, and this was the result. Drivers faced a tricky journey to work. Snow settled across the countryside and bitter winds forced those in exposed areas to take shelter and dream of summer and the tropical temperatures of last week. You can see the cloud that brought today's snow has been feeding up into the country from northern France and it will continue to do so for at least the next day or so. Tonight will see most of the rain and snow die away, with only occasional showers over the higher ground and in the east of the region. It will feel rather cold, with temperatures falling to a minimum of 2 Celsius, 36 Fahrenheit. Tomorrow morning will be mostly dry, with any thicker cloud in the east of the region and only light rain or drizzle over the Cotswolds. Everywhere is still very chilly, with temperatures slow to pick up. There'll be very little change in the afternoon, with again any light rain or drizzle confined to the higher ground. Top temperature 6 Celsius, 43 Fahrenheit, but feeling colder in places exposed to a fresh northeasterly wind. And now a look at tonight's main stories. South Africa has threatened to stop Namibia's independence process after clashes with nationalist rebels. The director of public prosecutions has given the driver in the Purley train crash limited immunity from charges. The Soviet leader, Mikhail Gorbachev, will arrive in London tonight to begin talks with Mrs Thatcher. 2,000 extra security officers have been brought in. Work has begun to refloat the oil tanker which caused pollution off Alaska. David Gower is the new England cricket captain. And the FTSE 100 shares index is down 4.6 at 2,078.2 and the pound is worth 1 dollar and 70 cents. The end of quite an international edition of Central News I'd say. And I see you've got the longest trip to the sunniest country . We'll both be back tomorrow night, so please try and join us then. Goodnight. Goodnight. 240 jobs to go at rocket research plant that pioneered Blue Streak. Hunger striker by the pub philosopher who wants Gorbachev to have him returned to Czechoslovakia. And the brothers who are getting all steamed up about their driving test. Good evening. First tonight 250 jobs are to go at the Royal Ordnance Rocket Research Plant which pioneered the infamous Blue Streak project. The losses are blamed on the lack of research cash and the need to reorganise, but union leaders says the cuts are cosmetic and unnecessary and they may consider industrial action. Kim Barnes reports. The Royal Ordnance site at Westcote near Aylesbury has been at the forefront of rocket research and development since it was set up in 1946. It's design teams were behind the Blue Streak rocket in the 60s, followed by the Blood Hound and Sea Wolf. Now Ordnance say 250 jobs will go as part of reorganization, blaming lack of funding for research. They say Westcote will remain a centre of excellence for research, design, development and production of liquid engines, but solid fuel powered motors will be moved to Summerfield near Kidderminster, while the Waltham Abbey plant will close. Staff who'd long feared redundancies were on the cards hear the news at meetings today. We're very expensive they tell us. What was the reaction of the unions to that. Very calm this morning. I don't think it sunk in much. We'll protest, but whether it will get us anywhere I don't know. Ordnance, owned by British Aerospace since 1985, says there's duplication and under-use, but union leaders are sceptical that job losses are the answer. I find it difficult to understand how they are going to carry on experimental work at other depots that aren't really equipped to carry out experimental work, and so for that reason, I mean, there's a great deal of concern that these cuts aren't rather more cosmetic that they've been made out to be. Although British Aerospace are saying that all the work is going to be carried out, one begins to have some doubts and fears as to whether or not that's 100 per cent true. It's not yet known how the job losses will be distributed amongst the 440 staff. Some may be offered jobs at other sites. Negotiations with the unions are just beginning as to how the blow will fall. The Russians are obviously impressed by the standard of schools in Cheltenham. An exact replica of one of them is being shipped to Armenia, right down to blackboards and chalk, but it's taken top level agreement between Mr Gorbachev and Mrs Thatcher to make it happen. Tim Hurst reports. 400 Armenian schoolchildren are being taught in tents since earthquakes destroyed their school in Lininecarn killing 52 children and 6 teachers. Next month work will start on the levelled site, building a new school with a complete construction kit from England, a replica from a primary school in Cheltenham. It's based on a design that's earthquake-proof. A steel frame, bolted together, which can be finished in a matter of months, before the Armenian winter sets in with temperatures of 40 degrees below freezing, it's the brainchild of a school consultancy from Gloucester, but it's taken agreement between Mikhail Gorbachev and Margaret Thatcher at today's Downing Street talks to make it happen. And that agreement follows advice from the design consultants in Gloucester. Our system of construction has been used for many years all over this country, by the sponsoring authorities and others, and erm we don't have the earthquake requirements, but we do need many high value schools both quickly and on time, and we've completed something like 2,000 projects similar to this over many years. So the school's package has been used widely used in Britain, but this time the designers had to switch to Russian to get their ideas across. It could be the first of dozens of identical schools in Armenia, and the five million pound cost is being partly met by the British Armenia Appeal. All the contractors have agreed to do it at cost. They'll take no profit from this deal to get Russian children back to school. President Gorbachev's visit has promoted a Czech dissident to go on hunger strike. Dr. Julius Tomlin made international headlines when he was appointed the Philosopher in Residence at a Swindon pub. He started his ten day fast to try to get his Czech nationality papers back so he can visit his homeland. Here's Martin Dawes. An Oxford bedsit is home for the philosopher who took on the Czechoslovakian secret state. It cost him his papers, the Czechs bounced them in 1981 while Dr. Tomlin was visiting fellow academics in Oxford. His refuge for the hunger strike will be the Swindon pub that pays him to lecture to punters on Plato. His contract for five talks is the only paying work he's got. Dr. Tomlin has written a letter to Mr Gorbachev explaining about his hunger strike, and asking for support to help make him a Czech national again. The News at One. Mrs Thatcher gives Mr Gorbachev the warmest of welcomes as they start their talks at Number Ten. While Mrs Thatcher and the Soviet leader settle down to a lunch of veal glazed with mustard and rosemary, washed down by Chateau Margot, Dr. Tomlin only allows himself French water and sea salt. He sees the visit and his ten day denial of food as a way of focussing attention. It's a unique opportunity to do something really strong for the sake of the restoration of my citizenship, while at the same time by that of course I'm doing something for the human rights of every single citizen in Czechoslovakia. Do you think Mr Gorbachev will take any notice of you? Well I would like to hope that he would take notice of my letter even if I wouldn't get any support from British Press. In an upstairs bedroom earmuffs will help Dr. Tomlin to rest and pray during his fast. As a philosopher he says he doesn't know if God exists. His prayer is ‘God if you are, give me strength’. A motorist has been killed in crash with a lorry in Oxfordshire. The accident happened on the A 43 near Baynards Green. The dead man, who hasn't been named, had to be cut free from his car. And a seriously injured motorist was airlifted to hospital by helicopter after a head-on crash at Shipton-under-Wychwood. Emergency services were called to clear oil and diesel from the road. And wet roads have made driving conditions treacherous in many parts of the region. In Gloucestershire a woman was trapped by her legs after a two-car collision on the A 46 at Cleeve Hill near Cheltenham. She was cut free by firemen and is now recovering in hospital. Staff and patients have finally been moved out of a unique hospital ward. The Beeson Ward at the Radcliffe Infirmary in Oxford has pioneered a new type of nursing, but it's being closed down because the local Health Authority says it doesn't have enough money to keep it going. Cathy Alexander reports. Nursing staff at the famous Beeson Ward had hoped for a last minute reprieve, but the Health Authority stuck by its decision to close down the only ward in the country where nurses, not doctors, have the responsibility for admitting and discharging patients. The last few patients, mainly elderly, have now been moved to other hospitals and today staff were sadly clearly up after a farewell party, three and a half years after the research ward opened. I've been here since the start, three and a half years, and it's just so sad. It was here when it started and the ward was empty and I've watched it fill up, and now I'm watching it empty again. How did the patients react when they were moved out this week? Very upset, very upset indeed. I think the atmosphere is certainly lost and the environment is different today without the patients, and their attitude was that this was more like a family than a hospital ward and they were treated as family. And that was very special to them, but also special to us as well. When it opened the ward was heralded as a new way forward in nursing care. It was unusual because specialist nurses did much of the doctors' work. Patients were those in need of primary nursing care and rehabilitation. There was much more teamwork between nurses and doctors than normally takes place in hospitals. Qualified nurses were therefore able to extend their knowledge and build close relationships with their patients. But the ward's life as a teaching an research place is now over. It's 22 staff are being redeployed. Oxford Health Authority says it cannot afford the £200,000 each year to keep it going. There is one ray of hope, though. The Authority is talking about a new unit, similar to Beeson, with 16 new beds. A decision will be made on that later this month. 200 hospital clerical workers from all over Oxfordshire, who are working to rule, have voted to suspend their action. The Health Authority has agreed. The Health Authority has agreed to hold further talks about regrading and pay. At a mass meeting today members of NALGO agreed to work normally until the results of that meeting, on April 17, are known. A man accused of killing stamp dealer failed to appear in court because there weren't enough prison officers to escort him. Timothy Spencer, who's 21, is accused of murdering 60 year old Willy Day at his home in Cheltenham in Gloucestershire. The court was told there's a shortage of officers at the prison where Spencer is being held. He's due to appear before the court tomorrow. Police investigating the death of the Gloucester teenager, Kirk Douglas, say a car chase may hold a vital clue to the case. Kirk Douglas died last month after an alleged stabbing incident as his home in Bridge Street. Police are now appealing for witnesses to a daytime car chase through the Tredworth area of the city. It's believed four vehicles were involved in the chase; a white pick- up truck, a red Datsun Cherry, and two Saabs. Two men are being held in police custody, charged with Mr Douglas's murder. Still to come in part two, the stage revival that even the wicked old witch won't be able to stop. And the brothers who are going flat out to lose their L-plates. Hello again. A firm from Oxfordshire has just launched the latest equipment to help doctors find out more about heart and brain illnesses, but much of it won't ever be used in Britain. Oxford Medical has fought off worldwide competition for a major slice of the lucrative American market where health is big business. Oxford Medical, whose headquarters are in Abingdon, are world leaders in the field of instruments for research into cardiology and neurology. The specialise in equipment which monitors the heart and sleep. All the company's research, development and manufacturing takes place in Abingdon, but less than 10 per cent of their products stay in the U K. The bulk are sold in the U S A and Oxford recently won a Queen's Award for export achievement. The company has made huge advances by introducing solid state and microchip technology, which means they can process results faster than ever before. Traditionally, 24 hours of heart beat would be recorded on a device using a cassette tape, which works perfectly well, but it has the obvious problems of mechanical parts, moving parts, it makes a noise that might keep you awake at night. But over the last year or so we've developed a solid state equivalent, which has no moving parts at all. The replacement for the cassette is a bank of memory chips and that twenty four hours of your heart beats. Oxford Medical's work in sleep monitoring is also said to help people suffering from epilepsy or sleep disorders. The subject will actually come into the sleep laboratory in the afternoon, would be wired up to the small box, would go home, essentially carrying just a normal briefcase, a businessman from the office or whatever. When they get home, when they go to bed, they put the briefcase on the floor beside the bed and we will be taking into here signals from their brain, from their eye movement and also from their chin, because when people sleep we actually move the different stages of sleep. The results are recorded on a tape which the doctor can playback to monitor brain signals, eye movements and breathing. One can actually see on this trace a period here where there was no airflow, so in this particular period the subject would not be breathing. The body's mechanism takes over because the logical consequence of that would be to die, and we can see here that there is an arousal of something like eight to ten seconds, and during that period the patient would wake up, probably not sufficient that they would know about it in the morning, and we can see here that the breathing starts again. Once the equipment is ready, it's packed for export to Oxford centres all over the world. The company's North American headquarters is in Clearwater, Florida. They also look after sales for Latin America and the Caribbean. Competition is fierce and this is where American marketing methods have to be used to help British products compete. One of the biggest differences is telemarketing, where a group of specially trained sales people ring doctors and hospitals all day long to try to encourage them to buy Oxford Medical's products. And who would ever dream of putting sex appeal into a campaign to sell medical instruments in the U K? and we put a little sex appeal into it and turn it into what I thought was a very contemporary, viable and graphic arts piece that would be very broadly hung on the wall and used. That particular model is the result of two different casting calls. We saw probably a total of 24 different young men from a professional model agency. Everything was very legitimate and above board, but we had very specific requirements of what we wanted this representation to be, because it is life size. So how does the team in Clearwater cope with being so far from the Abingdon headquarters? One of the most difficult things is not being able to have the impromptu meetings with your colleagues. We do rely very heavily on the telephone and the fax. Many of us are in here at seven o'clock in the morning because that is noon time over there and so we only have about half a day to work together. In spite of the distance from home, this little bit of Oxford appears to have a bright future in the U S A, in spite of the competition from 35 other companies and there are plans for special videos to be made so that the employees in Clearwater can learn something of what life is like for their counterparts in Abingdon. Tomorrow night on Central News South we meet the Rover Group's man in America, Graham Morris, and there's new about what might lie in store for British people thinking of emigrating or setting up business in this . The first opera ever to be staged in England is to be recreated to celebrate its 300th anniversary. Dido and Anaeas by Henry Purcell, was originally performed in 1689 to commemorate a world coronation. Now a school choir from Oxford is performing it using period costume to reflect the era in which it was written. Martin Graham-Scott was at the dress rehearsal. Purcell's Dido and Anaeas is a singing and dancing production of the tragic mythological tale. Dido is the Queen of Carthage, Anaeas is the King of Troy, but their love is to be destroyed by a wicked sorceress. Now Oxford Girls Choir is putting on England's first opera to celebrate its 300th anniversary, with performances at Abingdon, Oxford and London. To recreate Purcell's era, the director has chosen to use the dance and costume of the seventeenth century. It's been a bit difficult because we are used to doing the things that choirs do, having music and hiding behind it, and of course getting the girls to be uninhibited has been a bit difficult, but they've taken to it very well actually and having the costumes for today's rehearsals has been a great help. Richard Vendome invited musicians from the Royal College of Music and the male voices from Tiffin School in London. The age of the cast ranges from 12 to 19 and the whole production has been put together in just three months. Anaeas is in love with Dido but is told that he must leave in order to save trial. So he has to go back home and leave her and in telling her of course he breaks her heart. There's not a great deal for me to say, but I seem to spend most of my time on stage. I have to stand there, like some sort of statute I think, and let everybody act around me. She's a woman in love, so she's very melodramatic and a bit neurotic and there's lots of to do, but it's good fun. You can really get into the part if you have to play somebody upset. We leave the second part to the sorceress who's the really strong character in the whole play to spoil this love match and she sends the spirit of herself in the form of the God Mercury to deceive Anaeas into saying he's got to go away, so he goes and tells Dido he must leave and of course Dido's heartbroken and she commits suicide and of course this is celebrated with the famous lament at the end of the opera. The first performance takes place here at the Unicorn theatre in Abingdon tomorrow. Then it's on to Oxford and Crosby Hall in Chelsea, where the opera is thought to have been originally performed. Well worth having a look at. Three drivers will be burning their L-plates tonight after passing their driving tests first time, but, as John Kane, reports besides needing good road sense the men had to be pretty nifty with a shovel full of coal. Any driving test is a nerve wracking experience. There's just time for a quick flip through the Highway Code and then your , but the test is even more daunting when you're taking it on a 15 ton steam roller. Today two brothers and the engine's owner are hoping to convince the man from the Ministry of Transport that they're confident to drive on public roads. Were they worried? Well, no not really. We'll just do our best and see how we get on. We ain't going to fast today and giving some hand signals and just see how we get on. I've got the Highway Code in front of me and it says that at 30 miles an hour the stopping distance is 75 foot. Do you know what the stopping distance is for 4 miles an hour? You're going to be talking about, on a steam engine, about 25 yards I should think. That augers well for the emergency stop. Don't tell the 3 L-drivers this, but in all his 10 years of examining, Barry Silk has never tested anyone on a steam roller. But, are the vehicles safe? They're safe provided they're driven safely. Unfortunately on the main roads nowadays, because of the faster traffic, they've got to be very aware of what's going on around them. First to go was a rather nervous Richard Crout with Jesse, a 1908 steam roller, belching out smoke he gingerly took to the roads. The course was simple; from the layby, up the road, a three point turn then back again. So was examiner Silk going to throw himself in front of the roller for the statutory emergency stop? Most certainly not. A wise man. Well, after answering questions on the Highway Code, Barry Silk told Roger he's passed. Then it was brother Alan's turn to get behind the wheel and he passed. Finally, after 180 gallons of water and three hundredweight of coal going through Jesse, Gerry Williams made it third time lucky. Now all three drivers would be zooming around Gloucestershire's roads. Look out for them. No such luck I'm afraid for a car swindler who's been gaoled for two years after he was caught boarding the same holiday flight as his victim. Windsor Crown Court heard that Carolyn Fellowes from Redditch tipped off the police after getting the man's name from a baggage label as he tried to board the same flight as she was from Birmingham Airport. The judge said that he didn't know what the odds of such an event were, but it was bad luck for the man and good luck for justice. The cloud is quite a bit thinner than yesterday, but the sequence still shows movement from east to west, which isn't good news when the north sea is cold. So a cloudy night with further light rain at times and some sleet on the Cotswolds. Misty as well, with hill fog, but the temperature no lower than 2 Celsius, 36 Fahrenheit. Friday will start off grey and misty, still with some light rain around. The temperature will struggle to rise and it will start to brighten, especially in the south. The slow improvement will continue into the afternoon with the prospect of quite a bit of dry weather. There may even be a few glimpses of the sun with the temperature up to 8 Celsius, 46 Fahrenheit and with very little wind. To summarise then; tonight will be cloudy with light rain or mist, tomorrow starting wet or misty, but brighter in the afternoon. Well last night's arctic weather didn't just cause chaos on the roads. Many people wisely stayed at home, and that left one theatre in Cirencester without and audience. Tina Monahan reports. The latest production of Terence Rattigan's In Praise of Love has everything; passion, intrigue and humour. The only thing it didn't have last night was an audience. It was very odd. It was like being in a sort of ghost theatre and it was terribly forlorn. Nobody appeared. Of course we were very disappointed because we were geared for it, and we were prepared to play even to two or three people in the audience. The bad weather is being blamed for the empty seats, but now it's cleared up they are confident of full houses until the run ends on April 15th. A look now at tonight's main headlines. Mr Gorbachev and Mrs Thatcher met at Number Ten for talks described as deep, wide-ranging, and very friendly. The Trade Secretary, Lord Young, and the Soviet Deputy Prime Minister have signed an agreement to increase Anglo-Soviet trade by 40 per cent. Scotland Yard is investigating Buckingham Palace security after the apparent theft of private letters from the Princess Royal. The tanker which ran aground in Alaska, spilling millions of gallons of oil, has been refloated. There are fears of further leaks as it's towed away. The FTSE 100 shares index closed down 25.27 at 2,052.5 and the pound is worth one dollar and seventy cents. And that's Central News South tonight. Please join us again tomorrow evening. Goodnight. Goodnight. Home Secretary speaks out against rural violence as judge calls for special reforms on lager louts. Low tax transport, the way to beat those high tide blues. And the flying mattresses, the R A F looks back 50 years. Good evening. Once again rural violence is the main story in our programme. A crown court judge calls for an enquiry into lager louts as he was trying two 18 year old men for affray after a pub fight. Judge Clarke said he was very concerned at continuing violence in Oxfordshire. In a moment we'll be hearing the Home Secretary's comments on the problem. But first Martin Dawes from one of the towns that has put Oxfordshire top of the league table for violence in England. Wallingford, picturesque and affluent; a starter home here costs £70,000. It's the kind of place that's put Oxfordshire at the top of the lager lout league. Today's case came out of a fight hear at the Coachmaker's Arms, but the landlord says the days of Wallingford's louts are numbered. Police and publicans have united to solve the problem. The guys know that if they come in here, if they do cause any problem they get banned from here and they get banned from every other pub in the town. It's quite a nice little town, everybody knows everybody, and they don't like to feel that they're going to be outside of the sort of social circle that they move in, so it does have that effect in keeping them under control. If a youth is banned, the message is telephoned that night from pub to pub. Senior police officers in the last nine months have made alcohol related crime a top priority. From the police point of view we feel it's been solved and solved quite well. We've had very since the trouble, certainly over the past month since Christmas. And that's a situation that's been welcomed by Wallingford's drinking public. I think it's because erm a lot of the pub such as ourselves are just fed up with them we're all as one now and we think well you know we won't have it in our pubs. Wallingford had a bad reputation for louts. They may have solved it. Other towns in Oxfordshire are still grappling with the problem. The Home Secretary, Douglas Hurd, was in Bicester to plant a tree on the site of the new headquarters for Thames Valley Police. He says the force has started to crack down on rural violence and he blamed much of the trouble on young people drinking too much. Well the first thing is to make sure that the magistrates and the police use their licencing powers to crack down on illegal drinking, that is to say under age drinking, and to crack down on unruly pubs and the hours that discos are open and that's beginning to happen. I think there's been a bit of improvement this year compared to last. In a speech at today's tree-planting ceremony, the Chief Constable of Thames Valley, Colin Smith, repeated his force's demand for more officers to fight the increasing level of crime. The force wants 800 officers of the next four years; they've only been given 44 this year. But Mr Hurd says there could be more available. Next year I'm working out, or will soon be working out, with the Treasury a further substantial programme of increases and the Thames Valley bid will of course be looked at as part of that programme. But it will never be solved simply by having more police officers. I mean even if you double the size of the Thames Valley force you wouldn't have a police officer outside every pub. It's got to be done by actually tackling the people who are going to be violent by preventing them being violent. And how do you do that? Well, preventing them filling themselves with drink. As Britain's major ports teeter on the brink of a national dock strike, one of the smallest ports in the land has stopped work. Sharpness on the Severn estuary normally handles hundreds of ships and thousands of tons of cargo a year, but that all stopped at lunchtime when the dockers walked out. Tim Hurst reports. When the dockers walked out at Sharpness, responding to the Government's plants to scrap their jobs for life guarantee under the National Dock Labour Board Scheme, they surprised their own union officials as well as the management. It's quite surprising really, because you see the dockers at Sharpness are not a militant bunch anyway and the last thing I anticipated was a walk out by their guys this morning. Normally they would have waited until such time as the national ballot had been held and then they would have taken the appropriate action afterwards. There are just 47 registered dockers at Sharpness, and the port handles hundreds of thousands of tons of cargo each year. Timber is the fastest growing import underlined by the arrival last month of the largest timber carrier ever to dock at Sharpness. The port's proud of its expanding operations and senior staff expected work to continue normally, pending a national strike ballot. There was a lot of reluctance to take the action they have, at the same time the scheme has been in being since 1946. It is important. It is a major move in the dock industry. They are obviously concerned about their future. Shipping agents are alarmed at the consequences of any strike. They've been trying to find alternative berths for incoming cargoes and negotiating the release of ships waiting to sail on the night time. We can supply a reasonable dispute. As a company, as a port, well you must ask the Port Authority. Dockers at Sharpness are expected to return to work on Monday, although they've been reluctant to speculate on any future action. An inquest has been told that a five year girl chocked to death on a plastic bottle plug. Emma Osterfield from Aylesbury in Buckinghamshire had been drawing sketches while drinking from a bottle. The court heard that she showed the picture to her father, Geoff. Seconds later he heard her choking and was unable to revive her. The Coroner recorded an accidental death verdict. The man accused of killing a pregnant mother on the M 50 motorway has petitioned the House of Commons for a prison transfer. Edward Browning is accused of murdering Marie Wilkes on the motorway in June last year. Browning is being held on remand at Winsom Green Prison in Birmingham, but he says his defence is being prejudiced because his solicitor to travel for five hours from Wales to see him. Browning wants a transfer to Cardiff prison. A £10,000 reward is being offered for information leading to the capture of the gang involved in the Sulgrave Manor antiques raid. Thieves broke into George Washington's ancestral home in Northamptonshire a week ago and escaped with a haul of historic antiques worth up to £3 million. Police say they hope the reward will encourage people to come forward. As thousands of bargain hunters queued up to two hours for a sale of stock damaged by a fire at Dickens and Jones in Milton Keynes, the store announced it's to halt the sale of animal furs. The site was gutted by a blaze in January and it's believed animal rights protestors were involved. A spokesman said the fur ban had been introduced purely on commercial grounds. A man who suffered a massive heart attack in a pub garden returned today to thank the ambulancemen and others who saved his life. He was resussitated by a new heart monitor, bought for the ambulance by a local fir. Cathy Alexander reports. Ray Hughes collapsed while having a lunchtime drink at his local with his wife Pat. It wasn't his first heart attack, but certainly the worst. The paramedics turned up within ten minutes and as they turned up I passed out, so they applied the defibrillator to my chest and the next thing I knew from one minute to sitting talking to them I knew I was on the ground and they'd brought me round. And the team who saved him returned to meet the family again today in rather happier circumstances. Even the most experienced paramedic could have done little to help Ray without this up-to-date portable heart fibrillator. These new ones obviously, five years on from the other models, they offer a lot more technology. With the microchip they are able to do a lot more. The good thing about having the machines on the vehicle are that we can give him that electric shock as opposed to taking him to the hospital to have that electric shock. Such monitors cost around £5,000. An appeal is well under way to buy one for each of the county's 30 ambulances. The equipment which saved Ray was bought by the Thame business United Biscuits, and some of the staff who contributed were also at the pub today to meet the man who owes his life to their generosity. George Waldron, the MP for Buckingham, says he's shocked by the loss of 250 jobs at the Westcote Rocket Research Plant. Mr Waldron was visiting the site as unions and management continue negotiations about cuts. The Royal Ordnance says they are due to a shortage of cash for research. It hopes some workers can be redeployed at other sites. Mr Waldron says the company should now offer generous redundancy terms. They have gone through privatization and ceased being Civil Servants and gone out into the cold and now they are suffering this blow, so they do, I think, deserve the most generous possible treatment. To the progress , the most expensive contract ever agreed. Construction are building the Banbury bypass section of the M 40. The seven miles of road will cost the government £52 million. A stone barn has been demolished in spite of protests from people living nearby. There was an in Swindon have managed to get the work delayed by threatening to lie down in front of bulldozers. They claim the building was 300 years old and should be restored, but Thamesdown Council decided the building was unsafe and had to go. R A F Benson in Oxfordshire celebrates its 50th anniversary this week. No doubt there'll be many reminiscences in the Officers' Mess, but some parts of its history may never be told. The top secret unit based there in the war worked directly under orders from Winston Churchill. R A F Benson's birthday party will last well into this summer, with a series of events and special Royal guests. V I Ps gathering for tonight's anniversary dinner brought memories of all the station's finest hours. Air Chief Marshall Sir Neil Wheeler, for example, was Flight Commander of the Fairy Battle aircraft, the first to fly at the new airfield. Their task was to train pilots, observers and air gunners, men only recently signed up and grateful for any preparation, however basic. They learn to aim at miniature planes. We all know the result of the R A F's careful training methods, a wonderful of record of enemy planes shot down. The British plan being a scientific destruction of military targets, as opposed to the Nazi's indiscriminate methods, our personnel go through a course of instruction taking several months. By 1941 Spitfires arrived at Benson and the base became to the top secret photo reconnaissance unit. Their solo missions over enemy territory were critical to the war planning and they often worked directly with Winston Churchill and the Cabinet. They were absolutely vital. I mean I don't think there was a major military operation, land, sea or indeed air, that wasn't the result of pre- planning using our photographs. After the Dambusters raid on the Mona and Ida dams the photo- reconnaissance pilots were despatched to the dangerous airspace above them to assess the success of the mission. Aerial reconnaissance attend an amazing picture of the actual breech in the dam. Here it is, a breech at least a hundred yards long and the power station has been swept away. Their photos were a morale boost and a propaganda coup to the allies. And the Bismark, launched as the unsinkable battleship by Hitler, was destroyed after the Reconnaissance Unit spotted her at sea. After the War the King's Flight reformed at Benson, now of course the Queen's Flight, and the station has welcomed all the Royal pilots at various stages in their flying careers. Today Benson is a major station within number one group of strike command, with duties ranging from servicing the R A F's Andover and Wessex aircraft, to flying Andovers to all military airfields here, in Germany, Cyprus and Belize, to calibrate radars and landing approach aids. Tonight they'll be toasting 50 active and important years, raising their glasses to a nostalgic fly- past by a lone Spitfire. Now a story just in. Three people are to sue health authorities after contracting the H I V virus in local hospitals. It's been that more than 100 people are now H I V positive after treatment at Oxford hospitals. Kim Barnes reports. Three haemophiliacs have issued writs against the Oxfordshire Regional Health Authority and the Oxford District Health Authority alleging negligence between 1984 and 85. They need regular injections of Factor 8, some of which came into this country infected with the AIDS virus. Since 1986 all blood has been heat treated and there have been no cases since then. The Haemophilia Society say they support the cases. A spokesman said infected haemophiliacs wanted compensation for the damage done. Patients from all over the area come here to the Regional Haemophilia Centre at the Churchill Hospital at Headington. It's now known that more than 100 people are H I V positive following treatment here. The Regional Health Authority tonight described it as a tragic story. They are still considering their response to the writs. With law cases pending throughout the country, it remains to be seen how many more patients infected at the Churchill decide to take legal action. Still to come, we look ahead to the greatest horse race in the world. What odds would you give for a Central South winner. And riding along on the crest of the A 48, join us in part two. So who's going to win the Grand National? That's the question they'll be asking in the pubs and clubs tonight. Just about everyone flicks through the racing pages and either studies the form, thinks of a lucky number or name, or just plunges in the pin. Tonight we'll devote all our time to the National as here in Central South we have eleven horses running at Aintree, in what's regarded as one of the greatest horse races in the world. Meet Dixton House, the favourite for the Grand National. The folk who live at nearby Ross-on-Wye have never had so many callers. The early morning sun of Herefordshire has shone like a beacon to the racing world this week. They've been coming from afar to pay homage to the king of Carradock Court Stables. On the gallops they've huddled in against the hedgerows to watch and study the form. John Edwards is the trainer. He's sending out two National horses this year. Bob Tistall also has a good chance, but it's Dixton House everyone is talking about. I would love to win the race. Obviously I think every trainer would. Dixton House is very well handicapped. He's a class horse. I think the ground will suit him. He's a good jumper and must have a very, very good chance. We'll have to have a lot of luck in running. While Dixton House has been lapping up the attention, his jockey, Tom Morgan, has been having a hard time. As you tuck into your tea tonight spare a thought for him. This week Tom has been living on a glass of water, half a cup of tea and just one small dinner a day. Three year old son Andrew's been eating more as Tom's been ordered to lose weight. I'd say 7 pounds for the frame daily. I'm just trying to keep my strength up. Dixton House has a history of leg trouble. He's only run twice in the last year, but he couldn't have better owners. Here's two of them, local businessman Terry Collett and Peter Hill, Chairman of Hereford United Soccer Club. So what's it like to be an owner on the eve of the Grand National? Oh, a tremendous feeling. It really is exciting and something which it's difficult to express and even better if we can do something for Herefordshire and bring back a winner. All three of us, we have another partner, Michael Roberts, who isn't with us; actually he's up at Aintree at the moment watering the course but all three of us are highly excited. And this your lucky brown Derby. I bought it last week at Cheltenham and we came home and it's already polished ready for Aintree on Saturday. So let's hope it's raised in the air on Saturday afternoon. Absolutely right . It'll be hats of to this man if Dixton House does win. He bred him. Michael Scudamore, a man rich on race memories, father of champion jockey, Peter. Mr Scudamore has his very own place in Grand National history. His record of sixteen consecutive rides at Aintree still stands and he's one of the lucky few who've won the national. Away they go. It's a field of 34, including a strong contingent from Ireland. It was exactly 30 years ago, on a horse called Oxo. It's a thing you just dream about all your life. I mean erm going to school I used to dream about it and then it came true, you know, I mean. I think the National but when you win its your fairy tale come true. A terrific finish to four and a half miles of the world's greatest steeplechase. A very close thing, but it's Oxo's National by a length and a half. If you want a fairy tale finish this year, here's the horse to follow, Gala's Image. Home is Kingsley Stables in Worcestershire. Home for seventy years to the Rimer family. Five National winners have come from here, great names too such as E S B and Nicholas Silver. Four were trained by the late Fred Rimer. His widow, Mrs Mercy Rimer, has carried on the tradition these past few years, but this season will be her last. The lease runs out in May and on Saturday the Rimers will send out their last Grand National horse. I've been raising all my life. I mean it has been my life, and it's obviously the most enormous wrench when you've suddenly got to do something entirely different. I don't know what. The National has something about it. I think Aintree has a sort of charisma. I don't know what it is. I can't explain to you, but it's different to any other meeting. So what thoughts will be going through your mind when you send out the last Grand National runner? I suppose lots of happy thoughts of, you know, when we won it, and sad thoughts that I haven't Fred to share it. If Gala's Image wins, and he has a great chance, the tears of celebration will flow. A racing legend will have waved goodbye with greatness. Another romantic winner would be Numerate's jockey, Tania Davis, the only lady riding in the National. Believe it or not Numerate arrived at the stables of Tania's father, Peter, yesterday. He bought the horse for his daughter to ride at Aintree. Now before you bet your penny or pound, here's the Central South Guide to the Grand National. Can any of our horses conquer the Aintree course, Beecher's Brook and all? The going will be heavy. John Edwards has two bites of the cherry. Recent form is on the left. A warning, only four favourites have won since the War, Dixton House, though, is still being heavily backed. The money's been pouring on to Gala's Image, odds have come down from 25 to 1. A late entry for Worcestershire is Numerate, the only lady jockey is on board. The only woman trainer to have won the National, Jenny Pitman, has two horses to watch. Gainsay is owned by pop star Errol Brown. From Banbury way comes Smart Tar. Four years ago this horse was saved from the knacker's yard. The only previous winner running is good old West Tip. Fourth the last two years, no horse knows Aintree better. From Stratford way comes Queensway Boy, back after breaking a pelvis. Lambourn trainers are used to winning big races. Oliver Sherwood is sending . It's being ridden by the owner. David Murray-Smith and Graham Bradley could be two men to watch, recent form is good. And finally, if you want to follow a local jockey, Gloucestershire's Peter Scudamore is the man. A winner at Aintree would round off a fabulous season. So come Sunday morning will another National winner be riding home in triumph to Central South? One thing's for sure, they're working on it. On Central News this week we've seen how firms from the region are surviving in the American market place. On the last day of my visit to Florida I met Graham Morris, the Rover Group's American President, who told me that whether it's work or play if it's in America it's got to be big to survive. American life is dominated by cars. To make life even easier, shopping is often based around the car culture. As well as the customary drive-in restaurants, there are now drive-through banks and even drive-through florists. Drive-in cinemas are disappearing because of attacks on families. The streets of Florida, like most other States, are crammed with hundreds of dealers all trying to persuade people as young as sixteen to buy their models on credit. It's a tough market for the British to try to take a slice of. Graham Morris came over from Britain to work at Rover's North American headquarters at the same time as the company launched its newest luxury car, the 827. Well here is the story. It's built at Cowley in Oxfordshire. There's no expense spare in this campaign. They're spending £30 million over three months on advertising. That includes the rights to the James Bond theme. It's not only Austin Rover's buildings here which seem a far cry from Cowley. The whole American lifestyle offers all sorts of new challenges for Graham Morris. Everything here is dynamic and very competitive; hotels, restaurants, theatres, which beach you go to, and that drives down the prices and car prices unfortunately. For instance, you can look round this place and be very impressed but it probably costs less to stay here than a two star hotel in England. The shopping malls are actually a social event. People go for hours and mainly . They go Saturdays and Sundays. They are open from 9 o'clock in the morning until 10 o'clock at night and actually they are incredible. But of course there are disadvantages too. I went looking at a house the other day and it backed on to a lake. There was a sign there saying beware of alligators in the lake; you don't get that in Home Chapel where I come from. Nevertheless, Florida is full of Brits attracted by the warm climate and promise of a luxurious lifestyle. It really is true that everything seems bigger and sometimes brasher over here. The television too is very different to England. W P T V Channel 5 T V in West Palm Beach is typical. A diet of news, game shows and soaps. It may sound a familiar recipe, but not on 30 different stations. We've seen this week that there's a demand for products from our region in the States. Success appears to lie in finding out where that demand lies and not being too shy about using traditional American marketing techniques to make sure you survive the Florida experience. The Severn bore caused havoc again today. Police had to close some Gloucestershire roads and in some places depths of three feet were reported. John Kane donned his waders to bring us this report. Although today's bore wasn't that high, coupled with the recent rains a massive volume of water surged down the River Severn. Police had to close the A 38 at Broadegg, and in some parts the water was three foot deep. Undeterred, some motorists tried to drive through. Lorry drivers in a transport cafe enjoying their breakfast were marooned for a time and really the best form of transport was by canoe. So how many times have you canooed down the A 438? It's the first time for me. What's the reaction from motorists? Quite good really, smiling. Have you got a road fund licence for your canoe? Unfortunately not. I'm hoping the police won't stop me. Meanwhile, further upstream, there was more flooding. And this is Gloucester's latest attraction, its new water park. Here the River Severn has burst its bank and acres and acres of grass are now under two foot of water. People living on the riverbanks can't remember it being so bad for many years and if there's rugby here tomorrow, then the players will be in for an early bath. As we run the satellite sequence, you should be able to see a curved band of cloud edging away to the north. That's yesterday's grey weather. And during the day speckled shower clouds have moved in from the west. There'll still be a few showers around this evening, but they'll die out later. There'll be a widespread frost with mist and one or two fog patches. So a chilly start to Saturday, but any mist and fog will soon go. There'll be some bright sunshine, but cloud will build up. During the afternoon there'll be a scattering of showers, but still with spells of sunshine. The temperature should reach 12 Celsius, 54 Fahrenheit, and it'll feel pleasant in the light breeze. The headlines are dominated by Mr Gorbachev's visit. He's invited the Queen to the Soviet Union, and in London he announced that two nuclear reactors making weapons will close. The FTSE 100 shares index closed down 6.8 at 2,045.7 and the pound is worth 1 dollar and 69 cents. That's all from us this week, but Don't forget Central Newsweek on Sunday at half past twelve with Ann Davis, but now for tonight Goodnight. Goodnight. The bookie who's offering £500 a month to make the buyer odds on favourite. The old bill that bounced back like a bad penny. And the perfect pastime guaranteed to cut Ben down to size. Good evening. First a man has become so desperate to sell his house that he's offering cash help with the mortgage. Michael Gannon says he'll give the buyer £500 a month for a year. His special offer comes as estate agents say it's a good time to buy but high interest rates are making it difficult to sell. Here's Martin Dawes. Michael Gannon is a former bookie who knows about odds and they're adding up to a housing market where the buyer is king. His house has been on the market for six months. He's knocked off £5,000 already. The price is £182,500. But he needs an edge, that's why he's offering a mortgage subsidy of £6,000. It is mainly the interest rate. It causes problems to people that come to the house. They would perhaps like to buy it, but they can't sell their property and also if they can sell theirs and they look at the cost of the property and they work out how much they've got to pay for the mortgage then they find they can't afford it. Isn't it better to reduce the price by £6,000? No. I mean the main thing is people can borrow on the true price of the house and then they can have an 80 or 90 per cent mortgage and when they come to pay the mortgage they have the £500 subsidy for twelve months or take them into the next twelve months. Close by more executive homes are being built. It's been a slack selling time for developers too. Mr Gannon isn't the only one in the subsidy game. Swindon's got a name as a town where the bubble hasn't burst, but high interest rates are giving those in the market place food for thought. The actual state of the market is that it's flooded with property, so we have a case where supply has increased, demand is still at a fairly low level, so we're having to be very honest with our clients, our vendors, and let them know that the situation is that their property has to be of good value in the market place. The market place dictates the price. So at the right price a property will sell. Mr West's company is preparing for zero growth over the next two years. If interest rates go up further that may be an optimistic forecast. And while the house market has ground to a halt, you'll have to move quickly if you want to become a pub landlord. The freehold pub market is booming, with prices continuing to rise in the Central South region. It seems for many the idea of setting up behind the bar is even more powerful than the interest rates. Kim Barnes reports. It's a popular dream, your own country pub full of friendly locals, but it's becoming more and more elusive as prices continue to rise despite the dive in the house market. Stephen and Jennifer Dixon are finally installed in The Bell at Shennington near Banbury, after a an eight month search. Hard work. Quite frightening. It's difficult, yeah. We looked at a lot of pubs. We looked at about 25 or 30, but this is about the nicest we saw. I think we travelled the length and the breadth of the country looking. We knew what we were looking for and we knew if we looked long enough and hard enough we would find it, but there were times when we thought perhaps it isn't out there. The freehold pub market rose by nearly 40 per cent last year, while residential prices ground to a halt. Experts say plenty of would be Dirty Dens are the explanation. Basically it's down to supply and demand. There are lot of people looking to buy pubs. They all want to own their own free house and that is keeping the market going when the residential market is depressed. Pubs like these in Oxfordshire, Buckinghamshire and Berkshire are going for record figures. Neither interest rates nor the Budget have had much effect. Prices have held and that looks set to remain the trend. We see no reason to believe that the market won't continue to steadily increase. We don't anticipate the same rate of increase that we saw last year, but we'd be expecting probably somewhere in the region of a 10 to 15 per cent increase over the coming year. The Bell set the Dixons back £325,000. They'd advise anyone still chasing their claim stick in. I think if they really want to do it they should go ahead and do it because it's not going to get any easier. I don't think prices will drop and I think it will be a nice way of life once we get used to it. I hope it will. So an optimistic note for the pub trade, but a pessimistic one for Oxfordshire's only two-man brewery, because it's struggling to survive against tough competition from the major breweries and the are concerned that the Government proposals to shake up the brewing industry won't really help them. Debbie Kelly reports. Brewing will never be big business for the Glennie Brewery. The two men just want to brew their traditional beers and make enough money to live on, but as things stand it's becoming more and more difficult. At the moment the brewery produces 50 barrels a week. They could easily produce 70. They know the demand's there, but they can't get landlords to take on their brew. Most pubs in the country are owned by the big six breweries, so Glennie Brewery can only sell to freehouses. Recently, even those outlets have been drying up because they too have been selling the big breweries' beer in return for cheap loans. We've lost over the past two years or, two or three years we've lost about 60 per cent of our biggest trading accounts through soft loans from the big brewers. When you find a free house, and there are precious few of them in this part of the world, they are usually supported in a big way financially by a brewer. We can't give them a new car park. We can't refurnish their home for them. We can offer them very good bear and nothing much more. The Monopolies and Mergers Commission agrees that the existing system restricts customers' choice of beer. It wants a limit on the tied house system and pubs given the chance to sell different types of beer. Exactly what Glennie Brewery wants. But Paddy Glennie doesn't believe it will work because the big boys will retaliate. Cheers. I am sure, unless it's very, very, very carefully worded, the brewers will find all sorts of loopholes and ways of continuing to persuade freehouse licensees to sell their beers, at the expense of the small brewers. I am sure that there's ways they'll find they can cut their prices dramatically. The Witney team want safeguards in any new legislation to protect small companies. Only then, they say, will more of us get the chance to taste their brew. Three youths from the Forest of Dean have appeared before Hereford magistrates, charged in connection with an incident in which two policemen were beaten up near Ross-on-Wye. Paul Jones of Lidbrook and Mark Weaver and Peter Barkett of Coleford are accused of serious assaults on police, after a sergeant was said to have been headbutted and punched. They also face charges of criminal damage and driving while disqualified. The three were remanded in custody. Three people died and a fourth was critically injured in a two car crash in Oxfordshire last night. The 26 year old driver of the Ford Escort and his woman passenger, aged 23, were killed. Both were from Witney in Oxfordshire. A 46 year old Worcestershire man, who was driving the second car, also died. His wife is in intensive care at the John Radcliffe Hospital in Oxford. The accident happened in heavy rain on the A 424, three miles north of Burford, just a hundred yards from the spot where a couple were killed in December after their car was in a collision with a coach. Registered dockers at Sharpness on the Severn Estuary have returned to work after Friday's walk-out. They were protesting at Government plans to scrap the jobs for life guarantee under the National Dock Labour scheme. Management say they expect cargoes to be handled normally pending any national decision by the Transport and General Workers Union. Twelve months ago a 41 year old man suffering from Parkinson's Disease underwent a revolutionary operation. Doctors injected cells from aborted foetus into Rob Davies's brain to help him regain control of his body. Today Mr Davis is happy with the results and runs a cafe at Worcester. His family say he is a changed man. Richard Lutts reports. This is how many Parkinson's Disease patients suffer. They have lost the ability to control their own frail bodies because of a chemical deficiency in their brains. And this is Rob Davies, a year to the day after his revolutionary operation to cure him. He is now healthy enough to get behind the wheel of a car. I tell you, a few years ago when I was lying in my hospital bed, one of the things that went through my mind was whether I would be able to drive again. It's great. A year on I actually can. To have your independence took away completely must be absolutely terrible. Mr Davies, who's now 42, suffered from Parkinson's Disease for three years. Then he volunteered to know to the Midland Centre for Neurosurgery in Smethwick to undergo a pioneer operation. Professor Edward Hitchcock took cells from an aborted foetus and he injected them inside Mr Davies's brain. They released a natural chemical called Dopamine, which Mr Davies lacked. Slowly, he regained control of his frail body. Today, on the anniversary of the surgery, there was time to reflect on its success. Before the op I was on 1,000 milligrams of the Dopramine drug a day, which is what the brain is lacking, which is substitute the drug for, which is . I was on 1,000 grams of that a day, now I'm on 187, so although I'm still on medication it's a very minute amount of medication to what I was on before, and I'm existing on that, so for me it's worked. For his mother, it's the little improvements that have meant so much. Well the first time when he found it could comb is hair straight back with his right hand; he could dry himself under his arms properly instead of just sort of wiping at it with a towel; wash his teeth better, instead of using his left hand with difficulty because he's never been really left handed. Those are the little things and to a mother they must mean so much. Well they do, definitely. I mean its as if he's sort of living again, you know, coming back to life. The controversial foetal cell transplants are carried out in other parts of the world too. Surgeons in Smethwick are now evaluating their own results. Well there's 12 been completed. There is now a pause for some evaluation work to be done. This is the leading edge of medical technology and therefore it has to be done at the proper pace within the ethical considerations and I think the team's decision to pause and look at evaluation is the right one. As for Rob Davies, some small problems still exist. The act of writing can be difficult at times, but he predicts that he'll soon become the first Parkinson's Disease patient to abandon drugs altogether as he slowly leaves a life of disability behind him. That was Richard Lutts reporting there. An investigation has begun into an arson attack on a school. Vandals tried to burn down the school in Milton Keynes at the weekend. The school has been shut because the damage is so bad. Fire investigators say arsonists built a bonfire with desks and chairs and tried to smash the burglar alarm at the Penwood First School. Teachers have been clearing up the mess and the headmaster says some lessons will be held in a nearby school later this week. The site of the old Baptist Tabernacle in Swindon has been cleared ready for redevelopment. There was an outcry when the old building was demolished ten years ago. A new Baptist Church, along with shops and offices, are now planned for the site. It was being used as a car park. A 230 ton barge has been encountering a few problems on its journey up the River Wye. First its propeller blade broke off after it hit a rock, then it got caught in currents so strong it couldn't move in a straight line. Now its stuck on a bank in Monmouth. The owners of the 124 foot Silver Cloud are tonight towing her off the bank ready to tackle the famous Symonds Yatt Rapids on Friday. A widow had the shock of her life when she opened a letter from her local council and discovered that she was in arrears with her rent. Doreen Wranklin couldn't understand it as she had always paid up on time. John Kane reports. Doreen couldn't believe it when the letter popped through her letterbox from the council. Signed in pen by Mrs S Harrison in the tenancy and accommodation section, it said ‘Dear Mr and Mrs Wranklin, I must draw your attention to the small balance on your rent account. Please make early arrangements to pay at a council office or post office’. And there with a written in biro by Mrs Harrison was that small amount, 1 pence. And just to add insult to injury, Doreen's husband, Mike, had died two years ago. Not surprisingly, she's very annoyed. I just thought how stupid. Could you believe it? No, I really couldn't. Have you ever been in arrears in your rent at all? No. Not surprisingly, Malvern District Council are embarrassed by the whole affair. They say it was a computerised letter which got through and they apologise in advance to any other tenant who might have got one. Meanwhile Mrs Wranklin has been told she doesn't need to pay up. And from unfriendly rates bills to environment friendly homes in part two. Sport includes sidecar racing, as well football with Swindon and Oxford and there's a model that looks set to out chime News at Ten. Soccer, sidecar racing and hill climbing in sport tonight, which we kick off with the fight for promotion to the first division. We've the goals from Swindon's game, but first Oxford United who proved they can shine when they want to as they beat Stoke 3:2 at the Manor. United got off to a flyer with Richard Hill giving them a lead after just eight minutes. There was more to celebrate moments later. A real beauty of a goal, just watch the pass from Mustoe and the finish from John Derning. United's luck changed then as Martin went off with an ankle injury, to be followed a few minutes later by Stoke defender Chris Hemming, a clattering tackle on Derning brought the red card out of the referee's pocket and boos for Hemming. Two up and playing only ten men you'd think Oxford would have walked it, but then Dave Bamber bustled through to score. In the second half United came bouncing back thanks to Richard Hill. What a inspiration he was. At 3:1 United were cruising again and the Manor Ground fans must have been thinking what could have been this season if there had been more games like this. Oxford though can be their own worst enemies when they let in soft goals like these, Tony Henley the scorer. Mind you Oxford should have won by an avalanche. When they're on song they're a treat to watch and if they can play like this all the time Richard Hill and co may take some stopping next season. Well here's how the top of the second division looks. Swindon Town's still in the promotion race, despite going down 2:1 to Manchester City at Main Road on Saturday. In front of over 22,000 fans Town got off to a great start, taking the lead after 34 minutes, Duncan Sheerer the scorer. Swindon's celebrations didn't last long, the equalizer coming seven minutes later. Wayne Biggins went down in the box. If he was at the County ground a penalty probably wouldn't have been given, but there was no arguing about Andy Hinchcliffe's finishing. The Manchester winner came after seventy two minutes; Swindon will be kicking themselves as they watch how substitute David Oldfield, a £6,000 signing from Luton, got the deciding goal. And Swindon back in action tomorrow against bottom of the table Birmingham at St. Andrews. Well the summer sporting season is gradually getting underway and yesterday we had two top events in Central South; sidecar racing and hill climbing. First to the sidecars. The motorbike men were out in force at Bletchingdon in Oxfordshire for round one of this year's British Sidecar Cross Championships. After a few days' rain the course was just right for the spectators anyway, plenty of mud. That's what they like. It was non-stop action too, with eleven races in the afternoon. The rider to catch was Paul Millard, number one. He's been the British Champion for the past three years. I think he's quite a lot happier now he's in the 500 ccs which is the solo motorcross machines. It's getting more easier to get bikes and get bits. Before you used to have specialist machinery, but now you can go to a shop in your own town and pick up spares so a lot more people are going over . It looks very high off the ground. Yeah lot faster tracks the same circuit and . And it was a good start to this year's championships. Local riders Roy Humphrey and Jason Peters from Finstock were going well too, but the only winner once again was the reigning champion Paul Millard from Trowbridge. He was way ahead of the rest of the field and battled on through the afternoon trying to win those valuable championship points. And speeds were even faster for round two of the Midland Hill Climb Championship. This was over in Gloucestershire, at Prescott Hill, home of the Bugatti Owners Club. You can feel the G-force by just watching the cars roar up the famous Prescott Hill. The real speed machines here can go from nought to sixty in just two and a half seconds. Prescott is 1127 yards long, full of twists and bends, and on the fastest stretch the cars can hit 100 miles an hour, every one electronically timed to one thousandth of a second and, quite simply, the fastest up the hill wins. The reigning Midland champion is this chap, Adrian Hopkins. He's an optician from Stow-on-the-Wold and in his purpose built Sark Adrian is also the record holder on the hill. So what's the pleasure of just roaring up a hill? Getting it right first time . It is, above all, something where you have to be utterly precise and there's no warm up, you just go out there and do it and that's very challenging. And so what's the secret, just foot down and away you go? Up to a point. On the whole it is a matter that you have to learn the hills, you have to be very committed to the corners so that you get the thing right and as fast as possible, and you don't have that much chance to learn. Adrian Hopkins was on form again at the weekend. He won his class by two seconds in a remarkable battle at these speeds and leads the Midland Championship after two rounds. Also well with him is Tony Tewson from Leamington Spa. He won his class in the Pilbeam. There are still seven rounds to go, and the championship could well be decided back here at Prescott in September in the last meeting of the season. And still with motor sport. Jaguar from Kidlington finished fifth in the opening round of the World Sports Car Championship over in Japan yesterday. Mercedes took one and two. Ann. Thanks Tim. Well I don't know if any of those cars run on lead free petrol, but we found a builder who claims to have constructed the first house in the country which is friendly to the environment. He's particularly concerned about the threatened tropical rain forests and has used materials which are either in abundance, or which have been recycled or reclaimed. Now he's launching a pressure group to encourage other builders to protect their environment while they're building new homes. Martin Graham-Scott reports. Twelve and a half million acres of tropical rainforest are destroyed every year. An area the size of England, Scotland and Wales. As a result, many varieties of tropical hardwood are becoming endangered, like mahogany and teak. Now a builder at Eastington near Stonehouse in Gloucestershire is trying to slow down the decline of valuable trees. Keith Hall has built a four bedroomed house which he claims is the first in the country to be environment friendly. All the timber used, like fine oak in the kitchen, comes from forests which are in no danger. Many of the bricks inside are reclaimed from old buildings, and all the paper and cardboard rubbish is saved for recycling. I've been quite frightened by what is happening in many areas of conservation and environment problems, and I decided that the best, one of the best, courses that I could take was to incorporate conservation in my work. The most frightening is rainforest destruction, and being a carpenter and joiner by trade anyway I have used many threatened species in my past and it seemed a good thing to start with. Out in the garden Keith has built dry stone walls to provide a natural habitat for thousand of insects, and in many of the trees bat and bird boxes. The project has impressed the building workers. I think it is a very good idea. I think the more people who are aware of the alternatives that are in the building industry we could improve on this. I just hope people sort of sit up and take notice of it. A lot more sort of individual builders and self-employed people like me and Chas will be more aware of things like this and that there are alternatives to it. Do you think there'll be more houses like this in the future? Hopefully, yes. There's got to be some sort of hasn't there? Now Keith Hall is setting up a pressure group to encourage other builders to think more about the environment. He says he's already had a good response. We are aiming, I think, for disaster, certainly as far as the Amazon basin is concerned. That it's likely, very likely, to vanish as far rainforest is concerned within the next ten years. The house, which will cost £300,000, goes on the market next month. Keith insists that's no more than any other home the same size, but he's hoping the new buyer will care as much about the property as about the world's threatened rain forests. Well now to another village. The one in Worcestershire made famous by the Archers radio programme. They're holding an emergency meeting tonight to discuss a plan to build up to 2,000 homes there. Residents in Hambley near Droitwich say the plan by Barrett homes will destroy the area's character. Local farmers have been paid for giving the developers the right to buy their land if the plan is approved. I wonder if the Archers' script writers will be at that meeting looking for ideas? Now time rules our lives, most of us have at least one, if not two, clocks in every room. But one local craftsman has gone one stage better and has made is own time piece. The problem is it's over seven feet tall. Stand by for a special edition, four hours early, of News at Ten presented by John Kane. Charlie Bennett builds a model of Newint's parish church. He's also done one of the market house at Ledbury. And now he's made Big Ben and he hasn't even been to London to see it. No, I have never seen Big Ben at all. So how did you manage to do this? Well, just photographs went to London and took some photographs, brought some postcards back . Would you like to go to London? No. Why not? I don't like the place. Do you think it should be taller? It's just the top piece, it wanted to go up . You need a bigger room don't you? You're wife won't let you kind of gouge out the ceiling? Now he's built Big Ben, Charlie's not too sure what to construct next. Maybe the Palace of Westminster? John Kane for Central South in Mayhill, Gloucestershire. I could just about cope with Big Ben in my living room, but the miniature Alastair Burnett would worry me a little I think. The satellite pictures shows a lot of cloud just to the east of us, but you'll see that it is moving away. During the day much more broken cloud has spread across and was responsible for the sunshine and showers. More cloud's coming in from the west, however, so it doesn't look too promising. Even so, any evening showers will disappear, bringing a fine start to the night. Quite chilly in the east as well, but the temperature picking up as cloud and occasional rain spread from the south west. That light rain will soon clear away tomorrow morning and it'll brighten up for a time. However, cloud will quickly thicken and yet more rain will move in from the south west. So, a wet start to the afternoon with some heavy bursts of rain, and windy as well. Brighter conditions should arrive during the afternoon, though, with the temperature managing 11 or 12 Celsius, the low 50s Fahrenheit. To summarise then, a chilly showery night. Tomorrow, rain but some bright spots. Now a look at the main national and international news. In the legal battle for Harrods the Law Lords said Lonrho was in contempt of the House of Lords with highly improper behaviour. Dock Workers Union leaders have been meeting to consider a national dock strike over Government plans to scrap the jobs for life scheme. Tanks are patrolling the capital of Georgia after the latest outbreak of ethnic unrest. The Russian Government has banned tourists from the area. In Namibia U N soldiers, including British troops, are escorting fighters back to their bases in Angola. The FTSE 100 index closed at 20.7 and the pound is worth one dollar seventy cents. It's the accepted rule. What's the secret of growing a good leek? It must be grown early and erm, and then just erm down, plenty of muck up in the ground, and erm they'll grow. But erm it's all time and it's erm, you know you don't know until the day what you've got, you can only hope and pray it's there and erm go to the show, enjoy it and erm if there's a trophy — very nice, then you can enjoy that as well. But erm you can always come second. Well Tom you've picked the best and this is it — how did the judges make out? Reasonable, = we didn't win on the collection, but erm we — we're quite happy really. It could have been a lot worse. What about when you arrived here and you saw all the competition, what did you think of it? The arrived erm we're here and erm let's have a go and that's it, you know, as long as we erm take part, that's all that matters. The competition's been pretty tough this year has it? Oh yes they some real, real good stuff here this year, yes. I've got all the judges markings here, did you agree with what they said? Ten out of ten for the cauliflowers Yes, basically, yes nine out of eighteen for the cucumbers. Yes I suppose I've had ten points behind anybody else, but erm that's not too bad, you know, out of a hundred it's reasonable. Of course the thing is at the end of the day, you can always eat 'em can't you? Of course, yes — no problem, no problem. Share one of these with you later — a spot of cheese, and a pint of beer — go down a treat wouldn't it? That would be lovely, yes. Alright Tom — back to the studio. And we'll see Bob just a little later on. Well just down the road from the Shrewsbury Flower Festival there's a very different kind of celebration taking place. The town of Telford has attracted a new £65,000,000 car components factory which will create 450 new jobs. Building will start in October with full production planned for two years' time. The new town is literally blooming with the growth that foreign investment has brought. Japanese money alone has so far created 4 1/2 thousand new jobs. Today's announcement that yet another firm from Japan is on it's way was made with a great deal of pride and enthusiasm. In the long run I think this is probably the most exciting investment that we have been privileged to have in the town, and this really confirms Telford's position as number one Japanese investment in the United Kingdom; we now have 20 companies here. The £65,000,000 factory will be built by Japan's biggest name in the automotive parts industry. Nippon Denso has bought a 53 acre green field site on the edge of rural Shropshire; by 1995 a brand new plant should be producing 400,000 car heaters and the same number of air conditioners per year. The company set up a joint venture with Magneti Marelli the Italian firm which has already taken over two big Lucas plants in the Midlands. Today the man in charge outlined the sort of people who'll make up the bulk of the 450-strong workforce. Young with vigour because erm not skill, we will cater erm employee, so not need the skill, but erm young people with erm maybe better. The new development has attracted a £2and1/4; million grant from the department of trade and industry; a regional spokesman says foreign investment has made a huge impact on Telford. Unemployment has fallen by 70 per cent since the mid-eighties in Telford but it's about more than just the number of jobs, it's the quality of jobs, the skills that erm are offered in terms of the training that's available in the area, and the whole atmosphere of the town has been completely transformed by moving from an older and established industrial climate to one that encompasses a wide range of modern and high tech industries. Nippon Denso already has an impressive list of European and British customers including B M W, Ford, Fiat, Porsche, Jaguar and Rover. But Japanese car maker Toyota is its biggest, it's hoped their huge new factory at Burnaston near Derby will lead to extra demand in Telford and the possibility of more jobs and more prosperity for people wishing to work there. This is the Central Television Percy Thrower Trophy, very handsome trophy it is too and it's going to be presented to the best gardener around here; that's after the break. Welcome back to Shrewsbury Flower Show, I'm joined by Central's Gardening expert Howard Drury, clutching the Central Trophy which we are about to present in a moment, but erm your impressions of the show? Phenomenal because it's been such a difficult year, and this is erm a prize that's given to the gentleman or lady that accrues the most points in the whole of the amateur section. It takes a lot of doing you know, to grow some good flowers, some good fruit, some good vegetables, especially in a year when water's been so short. erm last year it went to Manchester didn't it? It's nice to say this year its come back home to Shrewsbury, literally a stone's throw down the road. And it's coming into the hands of local gardener Norman Thompson, congratulations Norman. Thank you Do accept that trophy There we go. Thank you very much. With all our best wishes and congratulations. Don't want to drop it, thank you Well done. And indeed it was erm it was vegetables wasn't it? Mostly veg. yes. What sort of vegetables really caught the eyes of the judges do you think? Well erm the potatoes I did most erm mostly on, you know. There's some good leeks there though, which I didn't have anything there And erm also celery I thought was good. What's your favourite one to grow? Oh onions! I like to grow the big onions, although I didn't exhibit those this time here. In fact has it been a very difficult year for you or have you been able to have some control, because it's all down to the watering I guess Well it's been Or a lot of it is. It's been difficult in = thing that you had to go home at night and keep watering like, your not doing anything else but watering, watering So it's down to hard work at the end of the day? Oh, yes yes! Well I'm pleased to hear that it's come back to Shrewsbury. Congratulations Norman and erm Thank you. Here's to next year, let's keep it in the town shall we if we can? Thank you. Lets hope so. Yes I hope so. Let's join Bob Hall now for erm a look ahead to the weekend's sport. Thanks Bob. Five weeks from the end of the cricket season; Warwickshire may be on the verge of their first County Championship title for eighteen years. Middlesex lead the table, Warwickshire have no margin for error during the run in, but after seeing the title go twice to their neighbours from New Road, the men from Edgbaston could be about to have their day. It was overcast in Bristol; Gloucester starting as always these days facing a struggle. Andy Lloyd thought the wicket might not give his bowlers all the help he'd envisaged or hoped for, and he was right. Without the pace of Alan Donald, the burden in the early overs fell on Tim Munton called up again yesterday for the England nursery side. But a partnership between Bill Athey and Paul Romaines reached 100 — Athey later, his own century, this despite the use of five bowlers. So again Warwickshire desperately had to win was slipping away, and with it their chances of the championship. I said all along, once you've got a staff of twenty odd, we've had a lot of injuries which we haven't carped on too much, but senior players have been out with injury but it's given young players an opportunity. And the great thing is they've taken that opportunity and erm thankfully we are still lying there in second place. At the end of the day though, the championship I think, tells you who is the best team of any one year and erm that's the professional's choice I think, if you said at the start of the year which = trophy we'd like to win, we would have said the championship, erm we were top I think after two games and we fell away a bit since but erm the time to be tops after twenty two, so lets hope we can get up there. The names on the Warwickshire team sheet are changing, and Bob Cottam's statement that it'll take five years to get it right is looking accurate. Youngsters like Keith Piper have blossomed and though neither are playing today, Alan Donald and Tom Moody have made a major impression and impact with bat and ball. But with the change of rules meaning Warwickshire have to let one of them go at the end of the season, which one will it be? At the end of the season I will make a recommendation to our cricket committee, it's up to them whether they take that, choose either or. But what ever happens at the end of the day, neither is going on the scrap heap because they are a diamond, so someone will snap up a diamond and it will retain it's value and they will do very well. So it is not as though it's a young player who's going out of the game and you're telling them I'm sorry your not going to make it with Warwickshire. If you like, it's not a pleasant position to be in because someone's going to be disappointed at the end of the day, but they are diamonds. And they will go elsewhere and do extremely well, one of them. Worcester's Graham Hick becomes eligible for England next season and with question marks about the long-term fitness of Dilley, Radford and even Botham, it will be no surprise if either Donald or Moody ended up at New Road. Back to Bristol, I'm not the bearer of good news, set to get 243, Warwickshire were bowled out and lost by 66 runs, it could well cost them dear in their championship ambitions. And meanwhile at Kidderminster Graham Hick and Richard Illingworth took two Lancashire wickets each to leave Worcestershire needing just seven runs for their second innings. You won't be surprised to learn that they won by ten wickets. Aston Villa could be just a day away from their first trophy of a new season, they play Arsenal tonight at Wembley in the fourteen Maceeter tournament with the prospect of a final tomorrow against Samdoria or Rael Sociadad live on television. David Platt's return from world cup stage to Wembley stage is likely to be spoilt by a knee injury. But he was with the squad that left for London at lunchtime. There is plenty of Wembley experience in the side, Derek Mountfield holds an F A Cup winner's medal though Kent Nielson's lost there twice with Denmark. It's of course always privilege to play over there and I was over there with a national team a few times, it's a big occasion for the players, for the managers and for the big tournaments too. We have been preparing ourselves and erm we hope that tonight's game will be good one, good timing for the ball and erm results always is open. Arsenal hold the Maceeter trophy but were watched at Wolves last week by Vengloss , keen to impress on his first test in English football. Well that first match kicked off at 6 0'clock, the latest score is Samdoria 1,Rael Sociadad 1. Highlights of that match and erm tonight's game between Arsenal and Aston Villa will be on Central tonight at 10.40; the final live on Central tomorrow at 2.35. Well it's sad to report the death of Joe Mercer on his 76th birthday. Joe was manager at Villa Park for six years and later was general manager and a director of Coventry City, he was one football's great characters, he was a gentleman — he'll be sadly missed. Birmingham's Paul Howe has broken his own British record at the European Open Swimming Championships in Rome, he finished second in the 200 metres freestyle and still has another two races to come. One of Britain's best hopes for a title is Nick Gillingham from Walsall, he swims on Sunday in the 200 metres breaststroke, Phil Meppem was at his last training session before Italy. Nick Gillingham's proudest moment was winning a silver medal at the Seoul Olympics almost 2 years ago, but it's a sad perhaps frustrating fact that Gillingham still finds himself in the shadow of his greatest rival, Adrian Moorhouse. Moorhouse who won gold in Seoul attracts the greatest share of publicity, and Gillingham come what may, has appeared destined to play second fiddle. Although Adrian is the Olympic champion, we both held the world record and Adrian has had perhaps a four year head start on myself. The publicity he's had has been a lot more extensive over the years erm so I think he's certainly more of a household name than myself. That's not so worrying, but I feel that I've been successful in my own right and I would erm like to think I deserve the same recognition as we've both set same standards over the last twelve months. In Rome the pair will be kept apart as both concentrate on their specialist distance, for Gillingham that means the 200 metres and a chance to firmly enter the spotlight; Moorhouse might not be there but the opposition is still high class. about the Olympic champion, he'll be in Rome, he'll be ready for the World Championships, I think he's had an easy summer so far, but we've got the likes of Sergio Lopez who's just taken my European record away, there's two Americans; Kirl Stattel and Mike Barryman who've just gone under the old World Record, so there's perhaps a dozen of us that are really shouting and trying to get up to number one position. Gillingham enters the Europeans' at the peak of his form, and a performance in keeping with that would help to overcome that current image as the perennial man of tomorrow. And finally tonight Moseley rugby club have come up with a very different approach to pre-season training, I have to tell you it is not what you'd expect from the lads from the Readings. It's meant to make them more mobile in the mud and it's a far cry from the rigours of the scrum. It's aerobics, and if it's not altogether welcome, at least it's tolerated, by some better than others. Being a rugby player, I mean, suppleness doesn't come into their training an awful lot, so what tends to happen, if your muscles aren't loose and your running around, the slightest jar attacks and pulls muscles, you injure yourself, so if the muscles are more supple, which aerobics does do, then you'll find that erm injuries erm don't occur as often or shouldn't. You think you're fit, but not to the extent of athletes or to aerobic teachers of a high calibre, erm but I think we erm although we joke about, you can see on the pain in the faces that it does hurt and it does do us good. But the serious training still takes priority, as the team prepares for what needs to be a better season than last. The programme has been a lot better, a lot more stable this year and I think all round, the fitness in general, is going to be a lot better than it was last year. Since they started they had no coordination, = when I was saying up they were going down, but as the weeks have gone by they've actually gradually got better and they can smile while they are doing it erm as well, whereas before it was erm one great big grimace. That look I think was for when he next meets Gareth Gilcock. There's more sport for you at five past five tomorrow, meantime back to a man who's always in full bloom, he's at Shrewsbury Flower Show — Bob? First you grow your flowers, and then you have to cut them and then display them, now I call that flower arranging, but here, they call it floral art, and you can understand why. Earlier this week we dropped in on a competitor who was going through erm all the motions of getting his erm display ready and we saw what was involved. Gordon Bradley is a familiar face at the Shrewsbury Flower Show, he has been exhibiting his arrangements there for the past 25 years. He's back again at Shrewsbury this year and as usual most of his blooms are grown at home in his garden near Ashbourne in Derbyshire. The idea behind I had in mind with it was to make a champagne fountain. The look that I'm trying to get is a sort of pinky-mauvey look on this lovely, sort of wine coloured cloth. It's a sort of make it up as you go along is it? I'm afraid so, I mean a lot of these things, you can have a basic idea, and then your flowers don't turn up at the markets and all them sort of things, although we've got a wonderful garden and I've got quite a lot I can use. This year's hot summer has made life difficult for exhibitors like Gordon. The heat is not so bad, it's when this wind's with it, and it literally dries the flowers out — you can see them go opaque and takes the colour out of them, but we're not doing too badly. I think basically, if you've got good colour sense you're home and dry as I have said many times, it doesn't matter how you put it together, but if the colours are superb, it's going to look good. Well Gordon and here we are with the erm the finished arrangement — are you pleased with it? Well I am. I hope the public will be. It looks very nice doesn't it? I think it's a very pleasing effect. What have the judges said about it? Well, they erm seem to think we should have had some yellow in it for some obscure reason to match the programme, but I don't know, I thing it would have taken the erm the look off the thing. So you didn't get first prize then? I'm afraid not with this one, no, still never mind, there's always another year There's always another year. Exactly. Let's go back to the studio. And finally a last look at the headlines. Iraq has urged Arabs and Muslims throughout the world to unite, there are fears that the emergency Arab summit will collapse after the of Kuwait walked out. And Texaco has cut the price of petrol by 2.7 pence, the reduction has been made because the price of crude oil has fallen. And that's about it from us tonight — time for a final visit to the Shrewsbury Flower Show — here's Bob. Well you know, flowers and vegetables are all very well for the grown ups but for children, not so good. But there's a lot of entertainment here at the Shrewsbury Flower Show for the children; entertainers like Mr. Boom here. Where are you from Mr. Boom? Oh I'm Mr. Boom and I come from the moon. Is that a fact? Right! And do you know this?song That's very nice Mr Boom — have you got any more? Oh yes, I'll sing one you all know — will you join in?song Terrific! We've had virtually no rain in the last five weeks which is why we've got water problems in many parts of the country, but it's not just us that's suffering you'll be glad to know. Many parts of the continent have also got a drought; in France, in southern Italy and Greece in particular but Spain, they're not too bad actually they've had quite a lot of thundery showers this summer. Have a look at the satellite picture, that shows a lot of cloud coming across but not much in the way of rain unfortunately. Earlier on this week all that cloud was coming in from the north-west, now you can see it coming across from the west and as the weekend goes along, it will come in more from the south-west, so it will warm up a little bit. Tonight, one or two patches of cloud around, not all that much — a very mild night, minimum temperatures 13 degrees Celsius, that's 55 degrees Fahrenheit and just one or two showers in the north-west towards morning. Tomorrow morning, just the odd light shower about anywhere, but only a few spots of rain, it won't be long before the sun comes out yet again. In the afternoon, temperatures up to 26 degrees Celsius, that's 79 degrees Fahrenheit — a lovely day by the look of it. Then on Sunday, more of the same, if anything — little bit warmer. So there you have it, have a very nice weekend. I'll leave you with this summary. Good evening. The headlines tonight. Mourners at the funeral of a young soldier murdered in Northern Ireland were joined by his fiancée Debbie Turley from Lidney in the Forest of Dean. She was supported by the parents of Lance Bombardier Stephen Cummins as the gun carriage bearing his body moved through Porchester near Portsmouth. Lance Bombardier Cummins was killed by an I R A land mine near Londonderry. He had written letters home and to his fiancée with poems asking them not to weep at his grave. He and Debbie Turley who's a nurse were planning to marry in August. Her wreath in the shape of a tank bore the message ‘As you once said, there is too much love between us ever to be separated’. A teenager is being questioned after an attack on a schoolgirl. It happened behind the ice rink in Oxford off Oxpens Road close to the Oxford Canal. The fifteen year old girl was left badly bruised and with missing and broken teeth. Police are searching for a blunt instrument. A village school in Buckinghamshire is set to close despite a campaign by parents to keep it open. Nearly seventy pupils and parents from Slapton School near Aylesbury lobbied councillors before a meeting of Buckinghamshire Education Committee. They say twenty five children at the primary school get more individual attention than they'd get at a larger school. But the council say the school, which has only one full-time teacher, is too small to cope with the new national curriculum. The parents now say they'll appeal to the Secretary of State. And more than thirty children have returned to school after a three day break caused by a shortage of teachers. Parents are angry that their education has been disrupted. The class of twelve and thirteen year olds were forced to miss lessons because Buckinghamshire Education Committee was unable to find a supply teacher. Teaching at Falconhurst School in Milton Keynes was back to normal this morning. Vital detective work by scientists based at Harwell has linked radon gas with a possible two and a half thousand lung cancer deaths. The radioactive gas occurs naturally in parts of Britain, and concentrations can build up in houses. Until researchers from the National Radiological Protection Board published their figures there had never been a national survey on the potential risks. Martin Dawes reports. : Mmd The detective work done by the Harwell scientists showed hitherto unsuspected dangers from radon. It was already known the radioactive gas was linked to lung cancer. The surprise is that it is much more common and affecting more people than had ever been suspected. Worst affected are Cornwall and Devon. Now scientists believe the gas could be linked to two and a half thousand cancer deaths per year. By placing radon gas detectors in homes the scientists are getting a clear picture of the problem around the country. In the south midlands, Northamptonshire has the worst problem. There, some areas are double the national average. Researchers couldn't be sure radon was such a danger until they'd built up a complete picture. : Ma for a few years and recently we've reassessed the doses and also we've reassessed the risks so those two things together have caused us to express our concern and to advise the government what to do about it. Which of course, which at last the government accepted. But in other parts of the Midlands, and indeed the country, the search is on to find the houses with high erm we have quite large programmes going on in the south west and also in the Pennines,Scotland. to find high houses and to remedy them. : Mmd Houses can now be designed to cut the risk from radon. Those most at risk in a high radon area are smokers. : Fa Some of the country's leading film starts have been adding their weight to a campaign to keep open an Oxfordshire cinema. It's threatened by plans to redevelop the centre of Henley-on-Thames. The town would get a new two-screen cinema, new shops and restaurants. But the existing cinema, one of Henley's best known buildings, would disappear. Wesley Smith has been finding out why the stars are so concerned. : Mws The Regal Cinema has certainly seen better days. It's entertained generations of film lovers from the Henley area since it was built in 1937. It was one of the few remaining to keep an old cinema organ until it closed a few years ago. It was bought by the John Lewis Partnership who want to expand their Waitrose supermarket as part of a new development programme of the town centre. The changes would also bring a new cinema. However, not all the locals approve of the plans to demolish the Regal. The actor Jeremy Irons is leading the campaign to save his local picture palace. : Mji I love film. I work in it and I care about it, and I care about people going to see it. And I believe that the growing trend erm of people going to the cinema, erm cinema owners reconverting cinemas they've cut into three back into the large auditoria, erm will continue and a night out at the cinema has something to do with the the building you're in, erm this building if refurbished would have a restaurant, would have a bar, would have a cinema club, would be a real asset to the town. erm and I think that if it is pulled down for this new development, in ten year's time we will look back and we will say ‘Why did we do this? Henley is a lesser place because we don't have this amenity.’ : Mmd An exhibition to let people see what could be the new Henley is being held at the town hall. Residents are invited to leave their comments before the planning application is made next week. Plans for the new two-screen Regal Cinema are also on display. : Fb The kind of erm cinema that will have being two-screens, it's going to allow the sort of variety that probably the Regal in the past wasn't able to give to them, because we can as a policy have a constantly erm a constant turnover of different films. : Mmd Isn't it going to be difficult to recreate the charm of the old Regal though? : Fb I don't think so. We'll erm have two screens, a great deal of comfort. : Mb This scheme has been designed to overcome many of the objections that were raised to the earlier scheme, particularly in relation to the car parking that is now in excess of that which was originally required. the cinema has been erm provided with a a proper manager that everyone is now happy with. : Mmd Jeremy Irons is impressed with the town plans generally, but, with stars like George Harrison and Simon Williams to back him, he's forging ahead with the plan to save the Regal. : Mji I live in hope. Forcefully. : Fa A man had to be rescued from the top of Hereford Cathedral this afternoon after he had a heart attack. It was all just part of an exercise for the emergency services. Hereford and Worcester ambulance and fire teams wanted to test how they'd cope with an incident some 176 feet up. The fire service used techniques usually reserved for cliff rescuers to reach the man. With the aid of a cable slide, the patient was slowly lowered to safety. Once back on the ground the ambulance service took over the medical side of the operation. The man who ran the world's first sub-four minute mile has been back to the track where he made history nearly thirty five years ago. Sir Roger Bannister trained on Oxford's Iffley Road track with Chris Chattaway before breaking the four minute barrier. He was back at the track to mark the donation of a quarter of a million pounds to refurbish the surface. A young man from Gloucestershire who wants to become a professional juggler has been given the royal seal of approval. Peter Cook has been awarded a thousand pounds by the Prince's Youth Business Trust to set up his own juggling company. Pearl Afferty reports. Yes. . Enough of the chit chat please,'s here and no Yes. Oh he is there Yes. 's er Yes Miss. No and Claire . What about me. What about you Right, now we turn we're on page twenty nine. Ssh. Excuse me hello . Can you get your notes out on page twenty nine we're halfway through O K right . page twenty nine. . Well you've read up until where Margaret comes in on page thirty, haven't we,where does she come in. Well she comes in on page thirty two rather. Er and we're discussing erm page twenty nine yeah. Have you all got notes so far on George? . You should have the notes on what George represents. America . Yeah, yeah, so I'll run through that and make sure you've got all those points down, then we'll start to think about Nick O K? No sorry you've got notes on Nick on Nick and George. and George, so I'll run . through them and you make sure you've got them all down O K? Right so Nick first, he represents biology and the future and you've probably got all these things. If you've got them just check them that they're there alright. He represents biology which represents the future as far as George is concerned he represents genetic engineering and a very frightening kind of vision George? of the future. This is what George thinks of Nick Oh you see. You have to be careful, you can't actually say that Nick represents this or that, you have to say that George thinks that he represents and sort of a kind of genetic engineering which would turn out a generation of perfect people, alright. This is erm Nick and I said that erm it's rather confusing here because on the one hand he represents the American dream boy because he's young, he's beautiful, he's got his future ahead of him. He's got as, you know, a shining career ahead of him. Erm but on the other hand and so it's valid to say he represents the American dream yeah? Physically in terms of his character and where he's going. On the other hand the ideas that are associated with him such as this fascist idea of engineering a super race O K are distinctly, you know sort of Nazi ideas aren't they and if you think about the political erm context in which this play was written. O K the Cold War, you've got Russia and America building up their arms and so on and fighting all these kind of erm secret battles. Erm then Nick actually represents Nicholas Khrushchev which I think is spelt on here. It was on here now it's gone Khrushchev . . Khrushchev Khrushchev who was President of Russia. . . Spelt like that. O K. . So and the reason and the reason Shh The reasons critics have said erm that this may be the case is because the equation works erm very neatly. If you can think about George and Martha's name, what is the significance, one person of George and Martha's name. George . One person, Anne. George Washington Right O K, so George Washington was the first President of America and his wife actually was called Martha. So there is a very kind of neat equation there. Unfortunately honey doesn't s fit into it. I don't know if honey even existed in Russia and I somehow doubt it. So erm but that has w has led some critics to suggest that the whole play in fact is about the Cold War. It's a very political play O K So now we're moving on to George Did he ever did like say, that's what he meant by . No this is purely speculative. So nobody's ever asked him? No and I don't think he would answer you, even if he did. Even if you asked him. You know, critics er playwrights don't like to be pinned down. You say, you know, this play is about this. The thing is that I am sure he was aware of associations but that doesn't mean to say that it is a political play, er and that was the only purpose of his writing that. I am sure he has other purposes as well, it's basically about a marriage breaking down . but it doesn't, that doesn't mean to say that these associations you know aren't there and that we we shouldn't would be wrong to point them out. I think we are quite justified in pointing it out. do we have to conclude from if it was a play about the Cold War, what is the conclusion of it? I mean Well is it Russia trying to prove by Erm it is political. I don't think he really comes to a conclusion. I think he's just portraying the situation as it was, kind of sparring of each other, playing games with each other , you know that kind of fits it doesn't it? Erm subterfuge and you know deceiving people, and pretending if you haven't got any nuclear arsenal when you have and and that kind of thing, you know, you will hear playing games like that aren't they, hiding up the truth. It's not a good enough reason to like No it isn't. characters into your . It's not sort of like a , Go on it's not like a good enough reason for him to call the characters these names, like if they don't have that much significance. Why didn't he call them something else? Exactly. So you're saying that because they have these names, their probably is an equation. That Yeah they're probably, there should be more of one than there is. Oh right, so it's not s , it's not enough for you to be convinced. Yeah. Well I think, you know, it's not essentially a political play. Emma can you concentrate but on the other hand I think that we would be missing something if we didn't point out that it has that side to it, alright. So I am just throwing it out in the air, I don't think it's that s It doesn't work as a political play. No it's not, it's not it's main erm way of communicating. On the other hand it does fit in. Let me just finish about George. Let me explain about George and I think you'll understand better. George O K I've said that he represents America in the Cold War, merely because of his name, but there's actually more to it than that because he erm, he believes in history and in the past and his values are very old fashioned. This comes out in this page we'll have a look at it in more detail in a minute. So he re he represents sort of old fashioned moral values and he opposes the kind of fascism which he thinks he can see in Nick that paradox isn't it if, if Nick has fascist quality. Mm mm, Qualities yes. but he represents Russia. Exactly, no yeah he represents the American dream. No well Russia by his name. If w if we are taking as a political thing. Nick as Russia Mm mm. and then he's pointed as this fascist who Oh you are saying . . So you are pointing out that Russia wasn't fascist. What are you saying? Well yes because, I mean, if N erm George is supposed to represent America Yeah then Nick is supposed to represent Russia loosely Mm mm. How come he has all these fascist qualities in him? Who Nick? Yes shouldn't he be communist. Yes. . It's like completely nonsensical It doesn't work . Well what I want Doesn't work does it. . He can't be one and the other. No he can be an American dream and he can also represent Russia because they're different things that you're talking about. You know the American dream is to do with ideals. Whereas Russia is erm, is to do with the Cold War situation but I take Michael's point that fascism and communism are not the same thing and to say that he has fascist ideas does not necessarily mean that he therefore represents Russia in this political equation . but I don't think it's really worth worrying too much about whether he's fascist or communist because erm the only reason really there's only link between him and Russia and the play is A is the opposite of America, in other words George and B because his name Khrushchev which links it to the leader of the er Because he's young and virile and he's new Mm mm. versus the old, it can be looked as communism because it's a new thing it's being thank you. by the way he's with fascist ideas that all this I mean some of the fascist ideas surely Hitler who had fascist ideas Mm. and I mean what's the link between Hitler and communism? Nothing. He didn't like Not really he didn't like Mm. . . There is nought. . Put that in your dictionary . O K. . Alright well let . I take your point. So in that case all we can say is that the link was between Nick . and Russia is to do with his name, yeah. and that's all. Well the other thing to do with being fascist . the other thing is to do with being fascist, yes, but you know you erm, you can talk about Russia, you know, running under the Czar and all the rest of it before communism came along. That would have been a fascist kind of imperial erm state wouldn't it. is it more that just like a general representation of fascism and communism. Yes. like revolution. Exactly, yes and the young threatening the old which Michael just helpfully pointed out amongst his more er genetic engineering as well Yes exactly. created everybody the same. Well you see exactly which is why, I mean we're getting into problems here because we're trying to say that one character equals one thing and it's not that, it's you know Nick he's a scientist, he's a biologist, he also represents in a way Russia, he also represents, you know, kind of erm the new of the young threatening the old. but then in that case Then George represents the old value of systems Then it's very hard for the audience or people reading the play to pick anything up from it because it's all mixed up and it's just an amalgam of . One at a time one at a time please. It's for each person, that's why like the playwright doesn't specify what each thing's supposed to mean because it can mean whatever it wants to each member of the audience. Exactly. Then it satisfies them personally. And if you were a a lecturer in politics and you went to see this play then you might think oh look oh and then you'd start thinking and if you were a scientist you would think about it in another way and if you were an artist you'd think about it in another way. But if he was trying to be a political playwright then shouldn't he clarify what he . Well what I am saying is that I don't think it is his primary concern. Right, it is not the main line of the play. The play is basically a psychological study of a marital break up, yeah, of a couple and the other couple are very largely just an audience to George and Martha's marriage yeah, that is the main line. Though what I am trying to do is just explore all these possible lines of thoughts erm in a political way, alright, but they don't work out neatly and these critics got quite excited about so I thought I ought to point them out to you but you're quite right in pointing out that they don't work out neatly, O K. So we've got to, where have we got to with George? Erm right. He represents the past and he keeps talking about history because he is history and I said that he 's he represents old fashioned moral values. Let's have a look at the text now, cos it will hopefully make these a lot clearer and you will see what I am on about. Right erm, so page twenty nine you can look at the top, you can see George says,you're the one, you're the one that's going to make all that trouble . So how does he feel about Nick? One person. He feels threatened. He feels threatened by him, fine. Alright, you're the one that all that trouble. Because Nick is ju erm is young and because he associates him with all these dangerous ideas, in genetic engineering and so on, he feels threatened by him. So to that extent George is on the side of history, isn't he? He's he's saying, I don't like what's happening now. Erm if you look at the next speech he makes, he says, do you believe that people learn nothing from history? So in other words he's saying, you should look to history to try and understand what's happening. He suggests that there is something to learn from history. Alright, so he looks to the past for his moral inspirations and he imagines that Nick is looking to the future. So we're on page thirty now? Twenty nine, about a third of the way down. Alright, so all these points are quite easy and straightforward, aren't they? George looks back to the past and Nick looks forward to the future. Erm then we get to a rather inter funny bit really. In the middle of page twenty eight, George lists all his different erm qualifications that he says he has and , I am not quite sure what an is an M A Master of Arts, P H D which is a doctor of erm philosophy and and he puts them all together to make up this word,ABMAPHD which doesn't exist obviously as a real word. He's just made it up and he says it's been described, this word, as a wasting disease of the frontal lobes and where are your frontal lobes? In your brain. Yes, so what's he saying? Slight he's got on his qualifications. His brain's wasted away. Exactly. So it's a joke O K. It's sort of er at himself, a self critical joke. Saying fine I've got all these erm degrees and there's a wonder drug, in other words can do wonderful things. in me all these things. so what's he saying . He's kind of teasing Nick and saying, I've got all these degrees. Then he makes up this funny word and says it's the name of a disease by which his brain is rotting away. So it's a kind of joke about professors who are totally incapable of any original thought. O K and really very mistrustful biology . So again you see that he feels threatened and er doesn't trust Nick because of erm these ideas which he associates with Nick. He assumes that Nick is, you people are rearranging my genes, so that everyone will be like everyone else. Which is actually a very s serious idea and he is opposed to that, that new kind of genetic engineering, alright. So to that extent he represents sort of old fashioned moral values, you know, this sort of thing shouldn't be allowed to happen, it's disgraceful. so saying they're very old fashioned erm sort of democratic ideas, aren't they? And the idea of making everyone look like each other is a communist idea, yes? Sort of everyone should be the same, everyone should have equal rights and equal erm opportunities. So that what Nick, he imagines Nick is doing, whereas he opposes that. So now can you see how politically, there is a kind of political subtext to this section erm as I say you can only follow it so far down a road then you come to a dead end but I think it's there and you can't really ignore it, the political subtext. All got that as a phrase the political subtext. and it it crops up at various different stages through the play as well, it's not just erm, you know I just can't buy it, I'm sorry but if the author is going to put elements, a political element into it, he must be steering the audience towards something, because why bother putting all these points up, because everybody realises, what the cold war is . I mean he's not really pointing anything out that nobody already has known . I think the only difference is, how far beneath the surface the subtext is. I mean you can interpret any play you want to Twelfth Night for example is having a political subtext if you look far enough beneath the surface of the play. The question is, how near to the surface of the play is it and how that is what influences wh the audience as to how important they think it is. If someone stands at the front of the play, at the front of the stage and says, you know, I believe in democracy, then you know you are let into a political play, yeah. Here you become just faintly aware but you start thinking mm, you know, George is old fashioned, he doesn't like what's happening around him, he's rather conservative in that way. Oh look his name's the same as the first person of America. Oh and his wife's got the first name too and the name of the his wife too and then you begin to you begin to put a few equations together. I don't think, you know, he's not trying to ram it down our throats but it is there Michael. Yes and if erm it was all like a political bit all the way through it, they wouldn't be like re real characters Exactly. and you wouldn't get all this psychology bit in as well. Exactly. It's more psychological isn't it then. More psychological, definitely yes. Yes absolutely. Alright. . O K so carry on then. As Tim said you have to hold on to the fact that these are real characters and their in a kind of confrontational situation here aren't they? And each feels er sort of under threat from the other. Erm and it's very largely because of the ideas that are associated with them. Erm, where did I get to, oh yes. Well he's talking about the er genetic engineering, he says that it will be a shame. Then he makes a joke out of it and says, you know, if everyone was forty something and looks fifty five. So in other words he makes a joke about his if they all looked like me, wouldn't that be awful. So he's kind of making a joke about it but there is a serious point there as well. That he feels kind of disappointed and upset by what he sees happening in science around him. Disappointing he says, disappointing, alright. Then at the bottom of the page erm, he says I am in the history department and he says I shall probably tell you several more times and indeed he does in the play. Martha tells him often that I am in the history department as opposed to being the history department, in the sense of running a history department. I do not run the history department. Erm, why is he telling all Nick this do you think? All this to Nick. I mean how does it come over? What's it doing to their relationship? Is he erm bring himself down a bit to Nick's level, cos Nick and hasn't really got any position? He's Possibly. Is he just opening up a bad . Open Trying to be like on a more friendly basis with Nick . Yes how his marriage works. That's right, yeah. He's kind of revealing his inadequacies and failures, isn't he? His sense of failure. If you do that to someone, then you open yourself up, don't you? I thought he was kinda saying to that by the time she got round to saying it, it wouldn't mean as much. Quite possibly that as well, Anne. I agree. Yes, it's to kind of forestall Martha, before she has a chance to get in there. Well why would he want to tell him all his failures, especially that he's viewing Nick as an opponent . That's right , it's just changes tack now doesn't it really. stop being confrontational, it's more to do with erm, you know, I think he actually wants sympathy from him. To open yourself up to someone like that, I am a failure, then you're kind of establishing a different level of relationship aren't you. Does he get any kind of sympathy, I mean how does Nick respond? Well I don't know I'm the biology department, what's he trying to do there? Make him feel better. Make him feel better, comfort him, exactly. Alright so we're back into the subtext now aren't we. It's not what they say, it's what lies underneath the words it's interesting. Alright, and then there's this extraordinary bit erm, that George has in the middle of page thirty, about what happened when he did run the history department for four years during the War. What's interesting about that little spee speech there. People who haven't said anything this lesson From I did run the history department, that main speech there. What's interesting about that speech? What does he appear to lament? What's surprising about it? Come on , what's surprising about that? About what? About that speech there? I did run the history department, it's quite joky isn't it? It's quite shocking as well. Are you looking at the right bit? Erm, I don't think you are, you don't know where we are, page thirty, half way down. . Wrong page, right O K. Come on help her out, somebody else. Isn't it that he only had the job because nobody else was there? Mm mm. So it's sort of quite sad really . It is actually, it makes him feel rather sad erm and also rather funny, and therefore, he rather comes over a rather pathetic creature. Get that in before erm and er come on, what else, there's something shocking about that speech, what's shocking about it? upset got killed. You know he's like upset that nobody got killed. He's not upset? He's ups he's not upset, he's not bothered. Exactly. He wishes like somebody did get killed. He wishes that they'd all got killed. Because that would mean that he would have been able to hold on to his job. So he's a really . He doesn't really, he's does he? I thought it was just like Commentating that it hadn't . Yeah but it's just a joke. What I am saying is a joke, you know, it's not in very good taste is it? I mean this was written in nineteen, was it sixty four perhaps? Two. Sixty two only, you know, not that long after the War had ended and to the lament that nobody got killed you know you might have had more chances e of success if they had all got killed. I think it's pretty shocking, it's actually in that kind of stage. And then what about, what's interesting about the way that speech ends? Extraordinary. Go on one of you. How does the speech end? By changing the subject Mm mm. completely. To? . Mm mm. What about her? her small hips. About her small hips, why hips? Why not legs or breasts or Because of the way Martha introduced her to him. When she first said that there were guests coming round, she said, Martha she didn't have any hips. Oh yes, that's true. Yes and that's what . George has remembered. Exactly it's about childbearing isn't it, I mean having hips is also to do with your shape sexually isn't it. I mean it's going in and out at the right places but it's also to do with childbearing O K. So George is changing the subject there completely kind of off the wall isn't he, er this comment? And so what does this reveal about him then. Why did he suddenly do that? It it's confusing him. He is talking about something and suddenly changes the subject. Yeah but why? To stop exposing himself. To stop exposing himself. Possibly yes, he kind of like wants to erm move off but then he comes back to it in a minute though, so that doesn't quite hold. What is I mean why is he . business.. Why is he interested in th this business of well erm Nick and Honey. Or whether Nick erm Honey has hips? Is it sort of child bearing? Why is . if she had any kids. She can have kids. She can have kids, that's right and it's also, well it's back to his own his own fantasy child isn't it and th his own inability to have children with Martha. So this kind of erm interest in children and in whether a couple are able to have children or not is has obviously been lying at the back of his mind hasn't he? I mean this could be another area in which he feels threatened because he thinks if Nick and Honey have children then that again will reinforce a sense of failure, won't it? He needs to find out. alright? And in fact it is as if we're having, it is if George is actually having two conversations at the same time. Ostensibly he's talking about his career and history department and he goes back to it again. Not one son of a bitch got killed. Of course nobody no that's not fair and then all the time he keeps coming back to this issue. You have any kids? Alright. And when Nick asks him, how does he respond? Right at the bottom of the page thirty. Come on, easy question. That's for me to know and you to find out. Yes. A kind of a challenge. Alright? So he's also secretive. So what's interesting here is that they seem to be having a conversation about un the university matters, the history department and so on but in fact there's this kind of subtext going on here in which both of them want to find out about the other person's children and both of them are being very mysterious and avoiding the question. No kids ha? Not yet. . No, that's another strange thing. Erm, I think that was gay and . I'll have to look it up. He was also adopted ? Yes, exactly, which is what is interesting for the American dream, isn't it? Mm. A lot of things like that which happen to him, he then put into his drama. He was adopted himself. I think he was gay. I don't think he ever got married. And so this interest in marriage and this kind of fascination and you kn I think it would be very natural, I think, for a gay person to feel terribly envious of people who can create a family and er and this kind of fascination with babies. Anyway, then we get to another funny bit on page thirty one. Erm, people do erm have kids and then kids links them with the what they were talking about before, the genetic engineering because now what they start talking about, two things kind of come together, the two themes and then they start talking about? Test tube babies. Test tube babies, exactly, yes. Then there's a wonderful line. Then the rest of us, them as wants to, can screw to their heart's content . A what does he mean when he says that and B what's the effect of all that on the audience? That bit about screw to their heart's content? Wonder wonderful bit of language. . Screwing's not just about having babies. Sorry. That screwing's not just about having babies. Er yes. . O K yes. That it's fun yes. To their heart's content. In other words sex can be great fun, you don't need to have to do it in order to just have babies. If you make babies in test tubes then er, you know, the rest of us don't need to worry about it. In fact it would be just one less thing to worry about if we could all er screw to our heart's content. O K yes, well it says what it means. What effect is it going to have on the audience. Shocking and Shocking and . You were all laughing, yes, that's amusing as well. It's also the big A word absurd. Because it's so unlikely and it's so shocking and it's such a funny thing to say. well then, yes the next bit actually is more absurd than that, sorry. What will happen to the tax deduction? Now I assume that in America as in England, if you have children you then get some financial help. In this country you get a, you know, child benefit that you and in America you would obviously get a tax deduction if you have children. So he's saying, it's a kind of complete kind of lateral thinking. You know if everyone around and they didn't actually have their own children. They just had their children developed in labs in test tubes. Ha how would you be able to claim for your tax deduction? So it's a wild bit of sort of er lateral thinking there. Very amusing. I am sure that an America would love that but it may not you know, to an English audience because er we might not be sure what they are talking about. So again they talk around subjects. Nick refuses to say whether he's got any children or not and George keeps saying, you know. Are you going to have children? Are you going to have children? And Nick keeps saying. Well yes, we want to wait, we want to wait. Can you now look in the middle of page thirty one. This is erm and this taking in not only the room they had the whole countryside. This is your heart's content Illyria, Penguin Island, Gomorrah. Do you think you're going to be happy here in New Carthage Jane? Let's have a look at all those places he refer to and then work out why he's referring hem. So Illyria we should all know what Illyria is. Describe the land of Illyria to me? Adjectives? Well what it's basically like? Erm. Wasn't it erm a country with a cost Yes, alright, yes. That's a very literal one. What's the atmosphere like in Illyria? Which play, we're talking about by the way? Twelfth Night Right what's the mood then, what's the atmosphere? Festive. Festive come on, keep going, lots of things. What's the mood of it twelfth night? love. light. Love, light, full of light. Dream like. Dream like definitely Confused . Confused, definitely. Mad. Mad definitely, yes. All those things, yeah. Do you see the links now? In what way dream like? Dreams and people deceive each other. In this play they have imagining children fantasies, yes. So that link there between dreams and fantasies and and being deceived and going mad, I think is quite clear isn't it?world and between Shakespeare's world. Penguin Island, I was reliably informed the other day, is the island where erm Batman's joking. Penguin comes from You're joking. No I'm sure you're probably right and it . Who is the Penguin Anne? . Come on. Is he good or bad? He's a baddy. Right, he's a baddy, thank you. So that's an evil place, yeah. A strange and evil kind of fantasy world, yeah. Gomorrah? . Yes, what happened to Sodom and Gomorrah? They got destroyed punished . Yes , because The they . Yes, good. So what did God say? To banish them from their doom. Mm. Take them away from it. No he just destroyed everything, he just but why, I mean because yes because they were sinning and evil. He actually said to them, if you can find, you know, a hundred good men then I won't burn your city and then he put it down and down and down and had a good old bargain. If you can find ten men. If you can't find ten men. If you can find one good man, then I won't burn down your city and they can't get anybody, so whoosh the whole lot goes up, O K. So Gomorrah . . Gomorrah is one of the cities in the Bible, Sodom is the other one, Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed by God because people there were so evil. It's the city of . It's the name of the city, is it? No . . . Right . Because And the last one. Do you think you're going to be happy here in New Carthage aye. It's classical Yes from classical mythology, Greek classical mythology. What happened to it? Died . The Romans obliterated it They obliterated it, yes. They burnt it down didn't they and from the this is from Virgil's Aeneid Because invaded . That was revenge was it? It's not in the Aeneid is it? Yeah I am reliably informed. No, it's referred to and Aeneid but it's not actually what happened to the city. Well that, I think the original one is from . . It just another reference . It's another reference, yes, at a revenge again. So somewhere that was violently and destroyed out of revenge. So what do all these things? I mean what is George on about here? They're all classical. I mean they're all history. Yes, historical references, sure and literary references as well because he represents the arts amongst other things, whereas Nick represents the sciences. Is he just saying that the place he's living in is a dump? Exactly, then there and what's this question to Nick then? Oh why do you want to stay here, why don't you leave. Exactly and more to the point. Why do you want to . What's the subtext of this whole section here? What do they keep on going back to? Having children kids Having children. Why do you want to have children in somewhere that is mad, evil and about to be destroyed? There's a sort of sense that all those places are kind of unreal places, aren't they? Before they get destroyed. So Nick is a little defensive. I hope we'll stay here. That is he's answering in a sense George's question. Why do you want to stay here? O K erm, right we'll just finish it to up to where Martha comes in. Erm at the bottom of the page then, George starts talking about Martha, Martha's father and it gets very funny this bit, very naughty. Erm look, flip your eyes down the bottom of the speech on page thirty one what is erm amusing which bits are amusing and describe the humour in that speech there by George? Page thirty one or two? One at the bottom. Come on and we'll finish in time. . How do you describe the humour there. Running around absolutely in hysterics ? Sarcasm No Weird humour sort of Weird humour, right. Cynical. Cynical. Absurd. Absurd, yes so which bit would you say is absurd? The bit about everyone in the in a dinner queue . . In a dinner queue yes, someone collapsing and dying in the dinner queue is rather absurd and it's also very . It's not happy is it? What kind of humour is it? Black humour. Black yes, exactly. The the best bit I think is when he says that the erm we make excellent fertiliser , right at the bottom there. . O K, over the page. He then starts talking about Martha's father, who was not going to die apparently. Martha's father has the same of those Micronesian tortoises, sort of run for ages and ages and in fact he says he's over two hundred years old. Erm, ah we haven't quite got to it. Right, so how does . How does George feel about Martha's father and how does this illustrate it? To say that Martha's father going to live for ever. Dominating. Yes dominating him, exactly, towering over him. Going on for ever and ever. Can't get rid of him, yeah and that fits in with what we were saying the other day about the Freudian kind of relation between the three of them. Nick mean er sorry George needs to in a sense replace Martha's father. Erm the only way he is going to be able to do that is when his dead. . Spoke in terms of his career and in terms of his marriage. . And the very last point. I think I mentioned it before, if you didn't get it down then, just put a jot down now. There's this interest in on 's part, in how the two sexes communicate. A across the sexes and B amongst themselves and here George goes on. One of the things I do not know about them, that's women, is what they talk about and why the men are talking. I must find out some time. Alright, so there's this interest in what women talk about when they're by themselves and when Martha comes down, she wants to know what the men have been talking about as well. So it is a very clear interest and that should remind you of who. Somebody else you've studied, I know, you did it with me. Interest in gender, interest in what talk about me, yes . and then Martha's voice, what do you want, with a not very good American accent and that's it. Right, thank you very much. This the Tarmac Training Centre. We're recording for the National Corpus and we're testing at the moment for sound quality. The tape is currently running through to seven, seven, four. Right, something is happening. Right. Right, so this is what we're thinking about this morning. We're thinking about problem solving and ways of solving problems, because you are a manager, then it's often down to you to solve the problems, isn't it? People are going to come to you, we've got this problem, what are we going to do? Now that's fine with normal everyday problems that you're quite used to solving. But sometimes, and in the sort of quite turbulent conditions that we work in now, problems are very complex, and very difficult. And it's not easy to find ways to solve them. And the tried and true w , tested , the tried and tested ways aren't necessarily going to be of any use to you. You want some new fresh ideas. We can get stuck in tramlines. So some of the things that we're going to be looking at this morning is ways for you to use, that the people working with you can come up with some new ideas, but you can also use these ways yourself, because sometimes you don't have the luxury of people to help you with your problem. So we , we're going to look at those sorts of things this morning. The first thing we're going to think of though, are the roles of people that you have in your team and how they might be able to help you in solving the problems. We're going to work through the Belvin test. Anybody done the Belvin test already? Yes,, oh, right. Well, the Belvin test is, it's quite straightforward when you come to do it. It's one of these things that sound much more complicated than when I explain it to you. You find you have, I think it is seven questions, and each of the questions gives you various answers. You have ten marks for each question or each statement, and you allocate the ten somewhere around there. You might think that E is so important to you that it's ten, and that's quite alright you can do that. Or you might decide you're going to put two there, two there, two there and spread out the ten. You can do it however you like. It is up to you. Now in this test you cannot be wrong, because you're looking at personality, so how can you be wrong with your personality? I'm not going to ask you what you are, it is for you alone to know, so have a look at it, work your way through it, allocate your ten marks to each of these questions. You should end up with er, up to question seven. Right. O K, yes. , Right, I'm now going to hand out the score sheets for you, don't worry about the initials at the top of the columns, because they will become clear as we go on. So all you do now, you look at the questions that you've answered, and let's say for question one, you gave erm, a two to G, the two goes in there, one to F, you move along there, three to H, you move along there. So you move along each question first of all, and then you total up afterwards. Then I will tell you what each of these initials . As you add it up, you'll find that some columns are very low, they may have nothing in them at all, that, that's alright. you may get one very high, again that's alright. Right, right then I just agree with that's all. Right, have we all got there then? . Now what I'm now going to do, I'm going to tell you what these initials are, so if you, on the back of the piece of the paper, you make some notes, because some of these obviously are going to be what you, your personality is, but you also need to note, if you look at the type of things that you can expect from different people in the teams, or the strengths and weaknesses that some people may have in your team. So we start off with the first one that you have, this C W, that stands for company worker. and the role of the company worker is to turn concepts and plans into practical working procedures. Excuse me. Turning con , concepts and plans into practical working procedures and the attributes that these people have is , you know company workers, or you are one yourself, is that they have self-control, self-discipline,they're realistic,common sense,but, there's always a but side to these things isn't there? Erm, they can lack flexibility. . The next one then, number two on your list, C H is for the chairman,Chairman, and the role of chairman, is controlling the way in which a team moves forward towards the group objective . The strengths that these people show are an ability to command respect,and to inspire enthusiasm . They're usually good at communicating . Inspire, sorry? Erm,in , sorry, enthusiasm. Inspire enthusiasm. Yes. and they're good at communicating. But then it's not necessarily very creative. Nor does, do they need to have good intellectual powers. . Then we have number three, the F H, who's a shaper. What shape? Md. And their role is to set the objectives and priorities for the team and to impose shape or pattern on discussions and activities. Will shape and pattern? On discussion and group activities. Their strengths are that they will have drive and self-confidence,and the weaknesses, they're intolerant towards vague ideas and people. Vague and? Vague ideas and people. You know these airy-fairy types who've got no, you know, bothered with those. Er, number four then, the P L, is a plant. How do you spell it? That's right you've got it. Yes. A plant. And it's the role of the plants is to bring new ideas to the group,, change the approach to problems and the strengths that a plant has is that they're often independent,with high intelligence. That's what's called a relative computer. And a lot of imagination and they're a pain to work with. And the reason that they're a pain to work with, is because they can be impractical and not very good at communicating with other people. . Number five,er, resource investigator is R I,. Their role is to explore and report on ideas, developments and resources outside the group. Explore and report on ideas, development and resources outside the group. . They create external contact. . And the strengths of this sort of person is they're er, often outgoing, relaxed personality, Like what sort of person? Outgoing and relaxed personality. They're very inquisitive. Like some management Well I'll be polite,and er, they, their weaknesses, the problem is, they can be over-enthusiastic and not follow on, on things. . Number six the M E is the monitor evaluator. And their role is to analyse problems and to evaluate ideas. Their strengths are that they have a critical thinking ability. What's that? Their strengths are that they have a critical thinking ability and they can be objective. . Their weaknesses they can be hypercritical,and over-serious. . Number seven, it's the last one, is it seven? Oh, no there's two to go. Oh, eight, O K. Right, er, the T W is the team worker. and the role of the team worker is to support members of the team by building on their suggestions,, they improve communications and foster team spirit . The strengths of these people are that they are flexible,popular,and they have good listening skills. . But they can lack decisiveness. and they dislike friction and competition. . The last one then, erm, C P is the completer. and their role is to see that the team is protected as far as possible from mistakes and they also maintain a sense of urgency within the team . The strengths that these people show are that they have an ability to combine a sense of concern, with a sense of order and purpose. What's that? They have an ability to combine a sense of concern, with a sense of order and purpose. . They can be impatient,and intolerant towards people of a casual disposition and habit. . Now if you go back and see what your scores were, and you say no, that's not me, I'm not a bit like that. But I know somebody who is like it That's the sort of thing you say, no I'm not like that, but I know people that I work with who are like it. Anybody find that it absolutely like they are? You know they're a really good description of their character? Oh, good, good. It's very well known this test,the Belvin test, it is very well known. Erm, it's used a great deal, erm, as we the sort of people's work as they work in teams. Now then, what sort of people do you think it's most important then to have in a team, because you'll only have a very small team? Who would you pick to be in your very small team of say perhaps four people? Chairman Bob said he'd have a chairman, yes, to er, pull the whole thing together. It seems to me you need a shaper don't you? You've got to have somebody that's, that's obviously going to save a mortice lock to you. Hopefully yes. What is going to be good at solving their problem? Doesn't it depend what the team's objectives are? No It would do yes, but w ,wo , imagine that they're there because the team's now for solving problems. You need a company worker. Somebody to get the work done, yes. Monitor evaluator? yes And Somebody that I said was very difficult to work with, or can be. Plant A plant yes, because if you're solving problems you want somebody to come up with some good ideas to get you out of your rut. This is what you want. So those are the sort of things that, those sort of people that you definitely want. And then, you know you think well erm, this sort of the area we're going, I might look for a person, you know, particular types of person. You look at the others, then so who do you particularly want in your team. If you ever get to this wonderful stage of being able to pick your own team, it would be marvellous wouldn't it? And of course,That's right yes, make them do the test first and of course , you may very well need some specialists depending again on as we said, whatever your team has got to do. That they would fit in as well. Well that's, that's the one test, the Belvin test. There is another test that I want to refer to, that we can't actually do, because you have to be qualified to do this test, and it's very, very complicated, and all the rest of it. Just let me explain what it is. Has anybody done the K A I test? . No, nobody's done the K A I test. Right I'll just explain quickly what it is then. It was devised by erm, a man called Michael Curtain, and it's the er, Curtain Aptitude I've forgotten what the I's for now, oh, well anyway, it's probably it's deducted in the basis. And what he says is that you can see people on a continuum. Now what I can't explain why, is that he starts with thirty two, now whether he sort of gets muddled up with the sort of the system of something I don't know, but for some reason best known to himself, he starts with thirty two, and the continuum goes up to a hundred and sixty. He maintains that when you do this test, which will show how you approach problem solving, you will be somewhere along that continuum. Most people are in the hundred, the eighty or hundred and twelve. Most people fit in around there. It's quite interesting when they get people to do this test erm, if they fit into certain categories, depending upon their job as well, it's almost, it is strange, that you do get erm, say solicitors to do it. Most solicitors would fit in a certain category, but if you go to another group of people, they would fit in, engineers, they would fit into another category. Which is, is quite interesting the way it actually works out. And what it's saying is your, the pattern of behaviour that you're likely to adopt when you come to do problem solving. Now down at this end then, these are the adapters, and at this end, these are the innovators. So it depends on what your score is when you actually do the test. Now how you'll be when you're seen as being more of an adapter, or more of an innovator. It's very good to compare how people see you, because if for example, your score came out we'll say at a hundred but you work mainly with adapters, the innovators who were up here, they're going to think that you're an adapter. It very much depends on the people work with. But on the other hand say you're a hundred and you're working more with adapters they're going to really think you're a strong innovator. So you have to bear that in mind as well. So what's the difference between them then? We can give some way to describing these people, this is how adapters are generally seen. They're seen as being reliable, they'll use a standard approach so that when they come to solve a problem, what do we, what did we do before? Let's tackle it as you've done before, you know, this, this was safe, this was good, we know it works. Things like that. They'll improve on it, or they might adapt it, see if they can change it in some way in that case, and they'll act in a cohesive way. We don't want to be falling out with people, and they don't work well together, and it is important to adapters. They're cautious, and they're practical. They do all the things the description's given for adapters. Innovators on the other hand, they're all right down here, are seen as being undisciplined. They will challenge assumptions, so when the adapters go, we've always solved the problems like this, the innovator will say why. Why do you do it like that? Well it works. It's. Yes, but why? You know, they sort of really rub people up the wrong way. They will refrain. Well let's look at the problem in a different way then. Let's turn it on it's head. There must be another way of looking at things. They're often abrasive, they're not bothered about getting on with people, that isn't important to them. Challenging, go for these problems and find a way of solving it. They don't mean to upset people, it's not they go out to be particularly, you know, horrible. But they're, they're seen as being abrasive, because that is a part of their code to really get on with people. They'll take risks Let's do so- and-so, and have a go at doing it this way And they're often idealistic. So you can see when you get these two people together, it can be very difficult if you've got them in a team. Especially if you get them at the, the far end of the continuum. But you also need them in your team, because if you're trying to solve a problem that is difficult, or what's called a messy problem, we'll come back to nice messy problems in a minute, you need somebody to come up with some good ideas, some ways of solving it. And having done that, you then need some people,in fact, so you do need the two types of people and if you are the team leader, you have to find some way of getting them to work together. It is that, it isn't necessarily an easy thing, because these, these innovators are seen as being undisciplined and unrealistic and you know, they have these airy- fairy ideas. We'll do so-and-so, and they walk away and leave it, and the adapters they say, they see the adapters as stick in the muds, ooh, they all do the same old thing, ooh, it's boring and that sort of thing you see. So it, it isn't an easy thing but you do need to attempt to bring the two together for the benefit of team and solving the problem. An easy way of sort of getting round it is to say that adapters do it better, and innovators do it differently. This is how they er, tend to compromise with it. Any idea what you think you might be if you look at that, look at some of the questions, some of the descriptions? When I said that we would need a plant in our team, then would he be seen as being more of an innovator? The plant would be like that. It's very interesting test, Curtain says, he maintains that once you've done the test, you know, and you find out what you are, you are that forever. Other people say no this isn't the case because you change, then you come and do your work within your circumstances. It depends on what you're working on as well That's right. You wish you could Yes, yes, he, he sticks this out, but other people are sort of beginning to challenge him and say that, you know this isn't necessarily the case. It also seems to be that it's different in different cultures. So you know, get say people from this country and America doing it, and they would come out different say to people from Japan, because their culture is different and certain different things are expected of them. But it, it, it is interesting, and I, in any case, we still need these two types of people, it doesn't change that. Because what we want to do when you're solving your problem you want to diverge and converge. It's important that you use both of these types of people in that sort of way. So you throw the problem in, you get as many ideas as you can. If you see, throw it wide open, so it can safely give you lots of ideas, and then you can say to people who are adapters, right now what can we do with these in five years? How can we adapt them to the problem that will, the situation we're in. So that's what you need to be doing when you're with your team. We now want to be thinking about, oh, let me show you the er, I nearly forgot. This is a description then, of the adapters and innovators. So the adapters are attempting to get up the career using sort of tried and tested ways of digging and sort of hauling each other up, and this sort of thing. The usual way that you might attempt to get up a er, tree. Where as innovators say that's boring, er there's got to be better ways of doing it you see. So they have to do it, to be shot through a cannon, and off a see-saw and various things like this. You know with a balloon, there's just got to be a better ways of doing it instead of having to use boring ways. That's just a very you know, graphically describes the difference between the two. And it says then it isn't anything to do with intelligence or anything like that. You get people from all sorts of walks of life, who can be in these different ways. We're going to imagine now then that you are in a situation where you've got to solve a problem. A problem that's come your way and it isn't the usual problems that you can quickly find an answer to. This is what's known as a messy problem. You don't really know what it is. It's so woolly that you don't even really know what this problem is. You've got to get into it, to find out what's going on. And there are four phases to this type of problem solving. And you can use different techniques in each of the phases. And as I said, you can use these techniques with your team, or you can adapt them to use them on your own, because you don't always have somebody to help you. I'm going to give you examples of some of the things that you could, if I can find anything to write with, yes, some, some methods that you can use, because there are lots of methods that you can use in problem solving. It's a very, very exciting field, it really is, there's lots of work being done on it, it's extremely exciting. I'm just going to give you a couple of things that you can use for each of these phases, and when you get used to them, you can really spread out and do all sorts of other exciting things. You know, sky's the limit with this. So, the first one then. Let's imagine somebody wonders in to John Major one day and he says you know, I've a bit of a problem John. Er, the er, we're losing confidence in us. Not, not too happy with what's going on. And he, all amazed, do think right, nothing relevant is happening. We'd better get a group working on it. So this group is going to get together now and think well, we're losing confidence in our party, but really what actually is happening? That's such a huge thing to say, that you can't begin to tackle it. It's a messy problem. So they've got to now begin to home in and find out what things they could start to tackle. So you start off, you put your problem in a box down here. Problem here. We'll call it that for now, no-one's actually voting at the moment but it, it's covers the same thing you see. It's the same thing. Can't let this go on, they'll be in trouble if they let it go on. Right, so that's the problem . What might have caused that? Give me something that might have caused that situation to lose confidence. Incompetence. O K, incompetence. Somebody else say something. Scandal Scandal. . Is that how you spell it. It's amazing when you get it up, it can't be right. Is that it, just that? financial Right, I'm just going to call it finance. What about unemployment? O K unemployment. What the papers say. We'll put media, I can't get it all in. yes,anything else?there must be something else you can put up there to make it er, Foreign policy. Foreign policy, that'll do. Stronger competition. Competition. Stronger competition. O K Or popularity might be a better way of looking at it. I don't know. Right, let's see if we can find some things that come up here. Somebody else might leave it on their own just there. What else can we say about being incompetent. Who is incompetent? All of them, the Prime Minister. I think you could give it, that one all to himself then. Right er, what about scandals? That's about sex It's back to basics. basics I think it's about basics. two things. Normal basics. Skeletons in the cupboard. Right or Unwanted children Single mothers Only I think we're happy that you can put in profligacy. Yes Yes,, get on there, what about the unemployment? Isn't there unemployment in the South? Yes, that's to show it's regional, it is regional, if I just call it regional then. Get it, probably get it all on the board eventually. Lack of apprenticeships? Poor education? No engineering future This is all coming from the heart, schools That's very popular Town We can't get much more in there, are you . How about finance then? Corruption Risk Wage claims O K what about the er, foreign policy? The situation with Europe. I'm going to call it E C to get it in. Foreign aid O K, I just hope we won't run out of space here. Military cuts N A T O Cuts How about the strong competition? There's no opposition to it. What else? O K, They don't take advantage of the state of the economy. If I said not take for granted in here advantage. What about the media? No control It seems they might like to get a lot of things. What can will we do now? Turncoats to traditions and Right now, we've a lot there. Imagine then that there's this group of people, if, can you see now, it's made like a fish bone, and that, that's the whole idea, a fish bone diagram. As long as it's close That's the thing, as long as it's close. Now supposing then, this committee that John Major's set up do something like that, and they get that down on paper. Get together for discussion and they get that down on paper. Obviously they can't do everything all at once. They might think to themselves, what is the most important thing for us to home in on first of all? Controlling the media, yes . Once you get that down, this then becomes the area that they might think, let's do something about that. Because it's the media that's got them on the run isn't it? Every time they open their mouths, they're there and they're doing something about you. It amazes me that they don't use it, they don't use the media in some way. But when you first say you've got this problem, they're losing votes, the media isn't necessarily the first thing that's going to come to your mind. You might. But it's only by sort of putting it out like this and thinking yes, the media wants to talk about this, talk about that, talk about the other, you know, they are in this case the most, the likely thing to be adding to the problem. And they are something that they could probably do something about. Try and get them on their side, or work on them or something. We don't actually want them gagged, do we, but er, it might come to that in the end might we? So that's one way of trying to, when you get your messy problem, and you think I don't , I don't know what it is, I don't know what's going on, I can't really get into it. Do something like that. Draw it up, and here we just took suggestions from everybody, but what you can do, if you're on your own, write it down on a piece of paper, and ev , when every time something occurs to you, you put it down. Over a period of days. We're not saying you've got to do this in five minutes. There isn't any time limit. You might say, by the end of the week I'm hoping to get that completed, and I'll, then I'll see what I've got. So that's how you go, using the fish bone diagram. . Or you can build up a tree. Anybody want to suggest a problem? You know, something that really is big, that's major to go at. Having solved the problems of the Conservative Party, I mean we, we could get very good at this aren't we? Traffic in the city. O K Traffic in the city. We're saying that that is our problem then. Now we're going to start to look at, up here. If you look at the causes. What are the causes of this problem of traffic in the cities? Poor roads No public transport I'll just put public transport, because it's er, you, you'll realise it means that won't you. Concentration of business people Gosh that's a lot to say isn't it. . Erm, Business density Oh good,O K, any other causes you'd like me to think about? Till you pass. Hours of business. Sporting events. Hours actually would come off there. You can start now to get your, because this is your tree, this is your tree, here's your branches, and then you start to get your twigs coming off, the way do, so, so and that also, you see that, that can link up with, like that can't it? Erm, did you say, er sport? Sporting events Sporting events. So that'll still come off here, wouldn't it? . O K anything else that we might want to say around those things, that go off. Airport locations Any twigs coming off there? The way people see it, erm, that just one person in a private car, seen Taxis are a nuisance, parking of. That was, would you put that on it's own, or would you put that with something else now? It goes with the transport section It probably goes in the Lack of investment And that will go with that, but also go with roads wouldn't it? O K, roadworks. Political working, deregulation Where would you put that? Under control Put that one in here, a twig in here. Three days of spring Right how untrue Right, well let's say we can go on and go on obviously with this. Now we want the consequences, down the bottom of our tree then. Oh , what would be the consequences do you think of this, prediction? Unhealthy residents From, from, from pollution Is that, that going to, coming from pollution really isn't it? I'll just put poor health. Cost, noise That's another thing to do with pollution really isn't it. Stress Out of pollution. no No Accidents Economic er, Economic resources. Erm, that had better come over here really hadn't it. Erm. Let's call it just economic you get to the point of going on before you. Right anything you want to take off some of these things then? Children, risk to the children. And old people, and people Damage to property, perhaps With accidents, or pollution? Both Both? Both probably yes. There's crime in traffic in cities now. They've got this new thing. Mugging of one in a car, you know Jamming, car jamming of people, yes I can't think of it as fashion I believe it's more hard to get That really is er, a separate thing isn't it, the er, the crime?you, you, you see the sort of things that we're doing. You, you, you build this up, now, and then you get to the point where you're going to say to yourself, well, do we have to do anything about it? Is it really something that is important? Somebody's coming here to look, what is the problem here? And when you do this, you can say to yourself, you can see is it really something that's important. Now the consequences of leaving it, are what makes you decide whether it's something that's important, and therefore you've got to do something about it. And if somebody came to you with those sorts of things, you'd think to yourself, it can't just go on, and gradually just build up and build up. So then again, you start to look at the causes, and the, the big sorts of things. You want to start out, and try and work in with your tree. Home in on a cause that you can do something about. You can't tackle that problem just as it is. Again it is a messy problem. It's all sorts of things contributing to it. So you highlight all these things, and then you might say, right in this town, in this city, we're going to concentrate on, and you pick one thing. It might be Build a bypass. Yes, a bypass, yes. There's money to make But it, this is such a difficult problem, you can't just anything about it, so let's get the cars out. Yes, that may be what you decide to actually do. You may say, let's improve the public transport, and let's have er, park and ride. And then, and that, that may solve all sorts of problems for you, if you were going to do that sort of seven days a week, let's say from seven in the morning until, I don't know, nine at nigh , at night or something. That might solve a lot of problems. You've got, you'd have to decide, but by looking at that, you could then start to tick off the things that that would help to solve. So that's another way for you to decide which bit of the problem you're going to actually start on. Before you really get down to doing anything, you've got to look at the problem, and, and really sort of try and analyse what is going on, and what bit of the problem are you going to work on. Once you've done that, you've said right you'd like to go on, the problem we're going to solve is not John Major's, something to do with me here. That's our problem, that, that's what we're really going to home on first of all. Me, here. Here you might say what we're really going to solve, look at now, is public transport. So you have your group sitting round and you say, this is our problem now that we're going to actually home in on. So now you're on to phase two. Of really generating solutions now to solve that part of the problem. And what you want, you want people to come up with as wild as ideas as possible. You don't want safe, tried ideas. You want somebody to come up with some divergent ways of thinking. Lateral thinkers. And when they come up with something which you think, oh, stupid idea. The daftest thing to say, you don't actually say this to them, you think oh hello, perhaps we can adapt that, perhaps it's going to lead into something else. Remember I said you've got to have these sort of safe, situations with the people that work for you. Open communication and they can say something like well why not kill off half the population, and you think well how stupid a thing. I don't know, perhaps really like to relocate people, you know, that might be something which came as one of things they did wasn't it, in the fifties and sixties. They actually relocated people out of cities, they didn't really kill them off, just put them somewhere nobody else wants to be. Things like that. So these are the sorts of things that you want to be looking for. So, some of the best ways of doing this is brainstorming. Everybody used to brainstorming? It's really easy, very easy. What you do, you have your group together, and you have a facilitator, somebody that presents the problem, and you also have somebody that's going to be the scribe. All their job is just writing. You either want er, a white board like this, or several flip charts, and you, you sit round and you tell them that they can say anything they like, no holds barred, and nobody's going to criticise anything they say. The problem is presented to them, and then they think about it for a minute, and then they say anything that comes into their head. And I mean anything. and the scribe just writes it up, as fast as he can. As long as he can write fast and legibly and they write it up as fast as he, they can. And the, the idea is that it's quantity that breeds quality. Because the more ideas you get, the better your problem solving is likely to be. If you only get a few ideas, you've only got a few things to look at. Whereas the more ideas you get, the more things you have to look at, the more chances you've got of getting something that's really good and unusual. But you don't at any stage say, what did you say that for, you know, something like that, you just don't do that sort of thing. You allow people to say what they like, write it down,you have to set a time limit because people get tired, it is a very sort of, it takes a lot of energy to do this, and concentrate on it. So you set your time limit, right we'll have say twenty minutes, half an hour at the most, then you stop and look at it, and say anybody want to add anything else. When you've finished, you just tear off all your flip charts, and put them up round the room or something so people can Right then, we're on to stress. The thing that nobody was worried about. Remember your objectives, nobody was concerned about stress were they? Let's see then. First of all, I want you to write down, the first words that come into your mind, the first say half a dozen words that come into your mind when you think about stress. This is stressful Oh we haven't started yet . . Let me say now, that most of things that we do in this part of the course, I don't ask you to tell me what you've written down, stress is a very personal thing, your reaction to it, so don't worry, you write down anything that you want to write down, because it is for you. Right, now have a look at what you've written, and ask yourself the question, is it negative? Almost everybody will have written down negative aspects of stress, because that's what we think about whenever anybody mentions stress, it's always bad. It's bound to be bad. We want, first of a , think first of all that stress in necessarily all bad. The definition that I work to is this one. A stressful circumstance is one with which you cannot cope with successfully or believe you cannot cope with successfully That's the important thing. How much results in unwanted physical, mental or emotional reaction. It's the belief bit that's important. What's stress to one person isn't stress necessarily to another. We want to look at stress now, and realise that it is not all negative, in fact some people actually go out and seek a fair amount of stress. And you'll see why in a few moments. Have a handout and we'll look at the different types of stress I've got two sets, two different sets, it doesn't say. Problems, Problems? It's a bit stressful this, isn't it? Oh, it is very stressful yes, Yes, you, you hang on to those, and these will come round later on. These, these will worry you later. How . yes, you've picked up two lots sorry. O K,let's look at the three faces of stress. These may be very, likely some of the words that you've already written down. The negative side of stress is also called, cause dis-stress. Things like worry, pressure, fear, pain, fatigue, insomnia, illness, all these sorts of things. It's all the negative aspects of it,. And then we get what's known as neutral stress, these are conditions really that can cause stress, but it's stress that could go either way. Change for example, can be very stressful when you work through it, in your private life, or in your family life. A lot of people don't like change, and yet we don't want to stay as we are. Crisis again, can be very worrying as you go through it. Money, well they tell me that people who have a lot of money are as stressed as those that don't have it. I've yet to be convinced of this, I'm still waiting to find out. But is one of these things, obviously you know, money does cause lots of worries and problems. Communication again, that can go either way. And people, a lot of your stress will be caused by people because they're unpredictable to control like that. And then we get the other sort of stress, the positive stress that's also called use-stress. A challenge, we like a challenge, we enjoy a challenge, we want this. Children, I'm, I wonder why children are in that column because I think that they can cause you, you know all sorts of other problems. Promotion, we go out to cause promotion, but when you first get it, it can be very stressed as you come to terms with your new situation. And marriage, again, it's something that we want. We look forward to it, but it, it can also have its other problems as well, doesn't it. And success, we want success, crave for success, we go for success, but you can be very stressed by directly doing it. . As I said, people go out looking for stress. They want it. How many times have you heard people say, I'm really at my best when I'm challenged. You know, when the chips are down, when the deadline gets near, that's when I work at my best. And this is, it is true for some p , it's true for a lot of people, that they really want to be challenged. This is what happens. When people are not challenged they're here. Because tho , their performance is low, they're not challenged, and the, the you know, life is difficult isn't it? These are the people who're bored. They suffer from fatigue, they hear of housewives being stressed, and they say look at the stress of housework. It's because they're bored. There's no challenge to what they're doing. They get frustrated. Life, you know, it's miserable for them. What we want is to be working here. A high performance, and a, the amount of stress that is right for us. And then, we are at our most creative. We're good at problem solving , we're really chal , excuse me, we're really challenged when we have the right amount of stress for us. We feel satisfied with life, because we feel we're getting somewhere. But what happens in most, many jobs, many situations? It's piled on isn't it? And then you come right down here, the stress becomes too great. We're over-stimulated. And this is where the illnesses come from, and it's because we can't cope, our self-esteem goes. We ought to be able to cope, we feel bad about things, and so we come right down here, withdraw and can't cope. . Precisely. . You might say to yourself, well, how serious is this problem, is it just another er, American thing. You know, they've done all these tests over there, for all these Americans that can't cope, is that what it is really, and somebody's imported it into this country. Is that really what we're talking about. No we're, we can cope here can't we? We're alright. No problems here. Well let's have a look at a few figures then, as to why we do need to consider it. They estimated that stress costs a thousand pounds per employee per year to businesses. It's costing them a thousand pounds per employee per year. You might think, so what, that's alright, they put the pressure on, they've got to pay the price. So let's bring it down to a really personal level then. The average employee loses one and half years of their working life due to stress,and very of , very seldom is it in one lump, because people have very severe breakdowns don't they? Very severe illnesses. Most of your working life, one and half years of the average employee's working life is lost is stress related . How do they measure it? Sorry? How do they measure it? Looking at the di , the time you have off work. And why you have time of work , a lot of people are not honest, to be non-productive at work as opposed to actually off work. Stress, stress related illnesses. People aren't always off work. No but you see, you've got to look at the type of, we look at the type of illnesses that people suffer from in a minute, and sort of, you know, a day here, a week there, somebody has a month somewhere else. And of course, some people do have a large block of time don't they, because you know, they, they have very severe illnesses, and it builds up. But that's it, that's what , that's what the average is. So, it is something that we need to look at, and study. And what we're going to be looking at is what causes stress. Not at what it is, what causes it. How your personality is going to affect your reaction to stress. It's a very personal thing. We look at some ways of coping with it, and also recognising it in other people, because if you've got people working for you, and they're stressed, and they have time off work, you've got to carry things on, haven't you? You've got to keep things going, you've got to cope. So you need to know if they're stressed, and what you can do about it. There are certain things you can do about it. So what's happening then when you're stressed. We've looked at the different types of stress, what is happening to you when you're stressed. Any type of stress, what is actually happening? say that, I don't, I've got it wrong Now our bodies haven't changed since caveman died. We evolved that far, and we haven't changed that much since. So let's think what happened to the caveman then. Life was very difficult for him or her, and they'd be out. A lot of their time was spent looking for food, wasn't it? I think that was how they had to be, and they'd be out in this very dangerous environment looking for food, and suddenly they'd be aware that they'd, the were coming. It's more dangerous because a mammoth was near. What can you do? Run Most likely he's going to run isn't he? to get away. If he's really cornered, he might think well I've got to fight, I've got no way round it. But he's either got to run or fight. And certain things are going to happen in his body to help him to cope with that situation. These are things that will happen. The sense organs, either his sight or his hearing tell him that he's in danger. There's something there that he's got to deal with. Immediately his heart rate increased. His blood vessels dilated or contracted in different parts of his body. Sweating increases, to cool him down. Saliva dries up, the pupils dilate, and many, many hormones are secreted into his bloodstream. Because he's got to cope with this situation. He's going to need a terrific amount of energy, and he's going to need it quickly, because he's got to deal with this very dangerous situation that he finds himself in. Unfortunately we don't meet many mammoths, but Speak for yourself! Imagine then you're out, you're in Wolverhampton, and you're about to cross the street, and round the corner comes a big lorry. What happens? Your sense organs have told you there's a big lorry. You've got to deal with it, you can't fight it. You've got to get across that road quickly. All those things happen to you, all those hormones, particularly adrenaline have got into your bloodstream because you need this sudden burst of energy to get you across the road. And that's right, and that's good and that's what you want. That's what you're aiming for, and you cope with the situation. What about, the ones where, the situation is say about the people freezing, and they do nothing? Well isn't that much sort of er, lorry. We'll come back on to that later on, because it, it, it, if this is what happens with you, because what's happening there is, you're not using the adrenaline, and we will, we're moving on to that where you don't use up the adrenalin. Yes, that's what happens. But you see, that's still going to happen isn't it? , Somebody goes, I, you know, I can't cope with the situation, you might be, I've got to stay here, I've got to stay here. But then you've not used it up, and so there's certain things that are now going to happen. And they can be, which is what we're going to move on to. Because when you do run across the road, you get to the other side, and you're thinking, good gracious, that was a close shave, I'll have to sit down for a minute, I think I'll have a cup of coffee or something. That was, really close that one was. O K then that's right, you go and sit down, get yourself together again, and get back to being able to cope with life. Now supposing it isn't you that crossing the road, but you're out with a young child. You're on one side of the road, and the child's on the other. And the child runs across the road in front of the lorry. What do you do when he gets there to you? You shout at him. You shout don't you. You sh , probably shake him. You just can't believe it, you know, you're sort of like this aren't you. Because all that happened to you, but you couldn't use up your energy, you couldn't help that child across the road, and suddenly you've got to get rid of all that, and you take it out on the child. How dare you do thing like that, you know, you're sort of, you, you just can't, you're almost beside yourself, as you're trying to use up all that adrenaline, all that energy that's poured into your body as you try to help that child across the road, knowing in actual fact you can't. And again, although it's not very pleasant for the child, because he's had this terrible fright crossing the road, then he's got this adult sort of, you know, looming over them and going mad as well . It, it helps you to use up this adrenaline, and that's what you want. Think of people that go to these dangerous sports clubs, what happens to them? They expect you to leap off you know, on bits of elastic? They're, they're suffering from this because they want to, they enjoy it. They get this great high. It's said to last for days even this great high that they get when they jump off and leap off these bridges or something on a bit of elastic. I've never tried it, and I've no intention of trying it. But it, think of things like that, because they, they've got to the stage where they can actually enjoy that. But, in our everyday life it isn't like that is it? If we look at this chart here, this is you coming along here, you're just walking along quite happily, and you go to cross the road. This is when the lorry comes round the corner, and immediately you've got to respond. You get all this energy, cross the road, and then you go and have your cup of coffee and go and sit down, and gather yourself back together again. Build up your reserves, and you're back on the ne , level there. If I give you another example of that. Some years ago, er, my husband was on his way to work and he was involved in a car crash. It just so happened that he, you know, he was alright, and the car was a right-off. And somebody was following, a colleague was following, saw it happen, stopped and helped him sort of do what you've got to do to get the man's address and this sort of thing, make sure the car was alright, and took him into the office. That was first thing in the morning, at two o'clock he had to be brought home. There was nothing wrong with him, but he couldn't keep his eyes open. He was just falling asleep on his feet. Because of course he'd used up all his energies, everything in dealing with this, he was completely drained. Came home, went to bed, slept right through to the next morning, and then you wouldn't know that anything had happened to him. So that's quite normal, quite happy if you're body's coping well with that, that's what you'd expect. That's good, you're using up all the adrenaline, it's not remaining in your bloodstream. Fine. But you see life isn't like that, not everyday life. O K. This is one of those days. And you set out in the morning and you know this road, you know this road well. You travelled along it yesterday, there was nothing wrong with this road yesterday. But on one of these days, and you hit the road there's been an accident, somebody's dug the road up, there's something wrong and you're in a traffic jam. It's a day when you want to get in early. So there you are, you're stuck now in this traffic jam, and you know you're going to be late. They're waiting for you when you get to work, and you can't get on with whatever you want to do, you have interruption after interruption. I'm never going to get this work done, I'm never going to get my act together today You know, as, as people say, it's one of those days. And then you think, right I'm really going to get settled down to something. I'll have this cup of coffee and I'm going to get on with it, and what happens? On these days, you're sort of, you're coordination goes as well doesn't it, and you knock the coffee flying, always over the company report. It never goes over something that's worthless does it? So you just get worse and worse and worse on these days. And then in the afternoon, there'll be some problem with the staff. They all come to you, will you sort out this, will you sort out that and the other, and you think, for goodness sake, can't I get something done here. You know, so all the time you're up here, like this, and then perhaps you stay to try and get some work finished before you go home, and as sure as fate, that's the day when you promised to take somebody out, when you go home, and you've forgotten about it. So you get in, and you walk in to a row. Know the situation? It's a bad day. When you get home, you say, I'm just sick of this day, I'm going to bed. But do you sleep? You're not in the mood to sleep are you? Either that or you run yourself around ragged, and you go to sleep and then we get to one o'clock, two o'clock in the morning, and you wake up, and then what do you do? You start to think, well of course, had I done so-and-so yesterday, had I done, and I've missed on so- and-so, so you sort of , review the day for a couple of hours, and then it gets to about four o'clock and now you're thinking, Oh my God, I'm at the accountants the next day, I'll be so tired, I'll be you know, and it's too late to do anything about it now, so now you're having a bad day the next day as well because you've got yourself all stewed up about that. So this is what's happening, and we said the people that don't use up the adrenaline, the ones who decide to freeze and sort of try and cope with it, this is what's happening. All the adrenaline is now remaining in your system with all these other hormones, and this is what's causing the illnesses and the problems. What do you do about it? Well first of all, what can you do about being stuck in a traffic jam? Not a lot. Nothing, absolutely nothing, so instead of thinking oh, what am I going to do about this, and can I get round here, if I turn round here, can I get round these bends or something, no I can't, it'll all be sort of, no. Nothing. What a wonderful gift. Somebody's given you ten minutes. How nice of them. Somebody up above as said, I'll give that person ten minutes sitting in his car. Take them, turn the radio on, because there's nothing you can do. O K accept it, because the only person that's suffering is you. They will cope, they will cope these people Nothing, absolutely nothing, so instead sit here and accept it, because I'm going to survive these days. m, Mr ek for the Chief Constable to go isn't Now of course it'll come as no surprise to you to use up all your yeses. I suppose so. What's the problem here? Right these two men decided in the end there was a correlation between this, and they were able to put people into two categories. If you've got fifteen and above you're t I've seen I've got one, there all noes. Er, these are the A's, I'm sorry to say these are the A's, I don't think there are any fifteen no's here. What's an A one for? Just, you're just known as an A one, I'll explain what it means in a minute. A nervous wreak. If you will, yes, this is it, yes Erm, between ten and up to fifteen, you're an A two,and five to ten, you're a B one, and below five is a B two, and I shouldn't think there's a single B two in the room. I have not had a B two here yet. If you are a B, I should ask somebody to do this test for you, because usually the people on these courses are A's, quite a lot of them are A one. And I can't decide whether it's, you're A types and you go into construction, or you're in construction and it makes you into A types. But I'm sure there's got to be something there, because it's amazing, most people are A types, and quite a lot are A one. Now then these people are the people, the A types of people who are going to suffer these stress related illness. This is why we're actually thinking about it. These are the types of illnesses that you're likely to suffer from. We'll start off on a real low now won't we? Yes . I need you to read the illnesses that you are going to be prone to. gosh, you're going to be some I'm going home straight away, I won't say when to do it, will I? You've got the bottom one? It's a crap report. What's hypertension? High blood pressure. Hypertension, when you are, you know somebody that gets very sort of strung out by things, and you, then you sort of, you. The slightest thing sends you off, you know. Very sort of that's it yes. You know, if somebody says something to you, aargh, you blow up, and you know. Somebody looks at you in the wrong way some morning, you know, what's the matter with you, that type of thing you know. Some people are like that all the time. Right so is there a necessity to do something about it if you're an A type? Let me give you some other examples in case you feel there is some doubt because of course it's one test. It's not the only thing you need to do, there are some other things that I can say to you now that you might recognise. Let me give you some examples of A type behaviour which you might recognise in yourself or in other people that work with you. A type people are usually excessively hard driving and busy, bit of a lout, always doing something, A types. They're ambitious and they strive for upward social mobility. It's important to them because it proves where they are in life, they don't want to stay like where their parents were, they want to prove. They're very aware of time, they have an enhanced sense of time urgency, these are the people that never have enough hours in the day. Oh gosh, I wish there was forty eight hours in every day, and there were ten days in every week, and it's still no good, with forty eight hours, they'd still find enough to do, they'd still be racing around all the time. They're very competitive,. You're often seen as being aggressive and impatient, but you believe that your pattern of behaviour is responsible for the success that you've had. This is the way to do it. Now how did you get to be like it? Well of course, in our society we like people to be like this don't we? This is what we want. victims of our We have, but really, well they're alright, you know, in their little hut with their tray or something like that. Yes, maybe Still got to have them, we've still got to have them We have got to have them, but really the people we want to push the country on, you know because people have got to get us somewhere, these are the A types aren't they? These are what we want to do, you know, work hard and they do this sort of thing. See this is what we, we know we want them, but the ones that we really sort of look up to and reward are the ones that show these other types of behaviour. Do you need more A's than B's? You need a balance You probably need a lot more B's doing most of work, and the A's are buzzing around. Well we come round to what happens in a moment to As and Bs . What happens is of course, you're so , very often socialised into behaving like this, ask yourself if your an A type, are your parents A types? And what happens if you're an A type when you have children? Send these children off to school, they go to school, this is your opportunity in life, and you work hard. You're what we want, you work hard at school, and the child comes back and they say, had a test today, how did you get on? I got eighteen out of twenty. What did the others get? Was it an easy test? And how is that this child got eighteen? You know, because this, were they slacking in some way, why didn't they get twenty? What's the matter here? You see, and you keep, and they work hard. It's what I expect for you to be able to work, really hard, get your homework done, work hard in your exams, I expect you to go to college. You know, I want you to have the chances that I didn't have. All these things, pushing this child on. And in the end the child's internalising, I'm loved because I work hard, and this is what I have to do. If you work hard, you gain people's love and respect. Rise to the top. You do yes, of course, well yes. All these sort of things to make them work, as in you set out a pattern of behaviour. And that's what matters to make them work like they are. And if you've got A type parents you copy them, you do what they've done, they've worked hard, that is what to respect is. And this is how you've got to where you are. You're prepared to work longer hours, to get the work done. You say to an A type, sorry I say you've got to work most of the night to get this done, they'll moan but they'll do it, B types turn round and say, no way. The A types will do it. The, they sort of have less sleep. If you want something done in a club, a voluntary club and things like that, go to your A types. They'll find the time. The people that do the most will always find time to do more, the B types, well can't you fit that in, you know. But the A types, somehow, yes, I'll do it. Unfortunately it's said you communicate less with your wives, I don't know if it's exactly true, but if somebody says to you, you never talk to me, you don't tell me anything, that's your A type behaviour. You go b , you can go back and say now, well it is my A type behaviour that's causing this you see, and see if that gets you anywhere. That's because you're always working and you don't have a chance. That's right, yes, because you see that's the other thing, that I've got on here. Stressed when you get up. Work is more important than socialising to A types, so if you've got to make a choice between the two, it's the work. That's what you choose to do, if there's a choice, sorry, you know, I can't have this weekend away, I've actually got to do this job that I said, you know, a load of work or something. I don't know, we can't go to the cinema tonight because I've got to do this work I've brought home. That's not a B type. That's it, because you're an A type. Whereas the B type I know which is more important See this is it, straight down the line, yes, this is it, I won't ask you how many you've got, but I did see, notice the ticks Yes, this, this is it. And you, A types cannot see it in any other way. You're almost better to be in a job first, get a few offers. Yes, that's it, yes, yes. That's exactly how A types see it. Yes, I have to tell you, you're a temporary one. Is there any chance of being an A type excuse me, between eight and six, and, and a B type thereafter? No, except, because your personality it's your personality I'm not so sure, I'm not so sure Well let's look at the B types. The B types have the ability to take a longer view of things. They'll stand back, oh, you know, the laid-back type, oh does it really matter. Oh, you know. Hey, go an get you know, get life and death. This is the B type. They're too like that you see. They don't expect things to be done perfectly. A types are often perfectionists. There's only one way to do a job, and that's the way I do it, and that's perfect. If I ask somebody to do something, that's why, the way I want it done. No oth , no other way to do it. You see, whereas B types would say, no, I can see that what you've done is acceptable and that's alright. And A types can't take this, and find it very difficult. You need to ask yourself, if you are an A type, and a perfectionist, what is the acceptable standard? Are you working to perfection within your job? Are these jobs, that you are doing for your client absolutely perfect? No they can't afford it can they? , It can't be done, it can't be done No, no, so what you do, you agree an acceptable standard. And this is what you've got to do with most things that you do. Now I accept that if you're adding up a column of figures you can't say well it's within a few thousand well that'll do. That's near enough. There are some things that do have to be done to a certain standard. But most things do not have to be done to perfection. And B types can take that on board, and they . A types often find that quite difficult. B types aren't concerned about time. Time doesn't worry them in nearly the same way. You get these, sort of these painters you know saying, beautiful picture, how long did it take you to paint that? Oh, a hundred hours, a hundred and fifty hours. You see I couldn't spend a hundred hours on a painting and only ask that amount of money. You know, you say how much am I worth an hour, yes. A pound an hour, good gracious, I couldn't be working like that. You see, because they just look at it in a completely different way. . I mean it's very much again the way they've been brought up, because they don't feel that they've got to earn respect and love. Their parents are the ones who send them off to school and say, just do your best. We don't ask any more of you, just do your best. And they come back and they say, I had a test today, I got five out of twenty. But you did your best didn't you son? You tried, that's alright, that's what we want. We can't ask any more than that of you. Yes, that's how the child grows up, because they did their best. You put the two together of course, and it's going to be very difficult for A's and B's together. They will drive each other mad. Because they just see things in a completely different way. But we do need some B types. . What we do know is, of course, that if the A types continue as they are, they will be ill. There are certain things that they need to do, to learn to modify their behaviour. And you can modify your behaviour because you've got to try. You know nobody was really concerned about stress before I started. didn't figure, didn't figure did it? No, no-one No, no, I noticed this programme ages ago. I'll give you that, I'll give you that, you know, when you go home, you should have known that. I wonder why, I wonder why you get that when you go home, there must be certain signs. Right some things that you can do then if you're an A type. Find some t , time in each day when you are idle, don't structure every single part of the twenty four hours, some time when you're going to sort of be, do nothing. We talk later on, sort of thing when I say do nothing, you're going to do something in that bit, but as far as you're concerned it's idle time. It's quite a good thing as well for A type people, is to read, read books. Because you say, no, I watch television to relax. I very much doubt it. You watch television, you can watch television with a, you know, quarter of your mind, can't you? You wa , if you think of those soaps, I bet, I'm convinced you could miss six weeks of the soaps and still not lose a minute of the plot. Probably yes, but what's really happening is, you're watching television and half your mind is taking it in, and the other half of your mind's thinking, when I get back to work tomorrow, I'm going to do so-and-so and so-and-so, because, yes, I'll do, and you're really chewing over the problems of today. So you're not really concentrating on the television, because you don't have to. I mean do you really care when you look at these game shows, and things like that, whether this person wins a car or a holiday, you know in wherever? Do you care? Of course you don't care. I mean, you know, you just, it's there isn't it, animated wallpaper. You're just watching it, you see because it's on. You're not, it's not really relaxing you. But if you read a book, you've got to concentrate otherwise you're not going to follow the plot. You won't follow what's going on. This is why they say read. Do whatever you like, I'm not saying go out and buy War and Peace, because you know, if you don't, if you're not into the habit of reading, you pick up War and Peace, and by the time you get through the first page, you say who are all these people? Tolstoy litters them, you know, they've got thousands of people all with different names, so don't buy something that, you know, you don't really want to read. It doesn't matter, read Mills and Boon if you want to, I mean who cares. Barbara Cartland, you know, who really cares, so long as you're sort of thinking right, I've got to concentrate on this, because you know, have this different way of going about things. Right, try and see your life as work and non-work. Not just merging in together. This is work, this is non-work time. Some of your stress may be caused by problems at home, particularly if say you've got teenagers. I can't think of anything worse. So if you've got teenagers, sometimes you've kindly got to say to them, look just go away, I want to be quiet, sitting reading my book or whatever. And ha , you know, ban them from the room that you're sitting in. Give yourself, you know, somewhere where you can sit quietly, and also give children the same opportunity, even quite small children need to be on their own sometimes. Some time in the day they need to be sitting quietly on their own. It's not the same situation obviously, so you have somewhere where you can be quiet on your own, reading a book, or whatever you're going to do, not idle, but. Know what your stress points are. Your body will tell you when it's had enough. One of the best ways of knowing, think if you have taken work home sometimes and you get to about ten, half past ten, and suddenly you think, God I've got a headache, or my neck hurts, my shoulders ache, those sorts of things. This is your body saying, er, I've had enough, I've had enough, I want, I want to change. Don't work through them. Yo , that's wrong. You say, O K, this is it, put it all away, because I've got to cope, I've got to survive in this life , so know what your stress points are and act on them. Don't structure all your leisure types, your leisure time. You know the A types, they go on holiday, Monday, went and looked at so- and-so, Tuesday we did so-and-so, Wednesday we did, Thursday was really boring. Do you know, we sat on that beach all day Thursday, it was really boring, there was nothing to do on Thursday. But you need some of this time when there's nothing to do, and, you don't know what might happen. I mean today, the house, don't structure every bit of your leisure time. Allow things to happen. I find that more stressful. This how you over everything Well there's something in the background that you might do What's Er, Erm, another thing you might do, you might take up a hobby that you've got to think about. Something that's going to take your attention, because while you're thinking about your hobby you can't be thinking about work. Whatever it might be that interests you, but something that you've got to be thinking about, in your share time. Er, it can be a sport it can be some sort of activity, it could be going to evening classes, learning something. Whatever it might be for you, but something that you're going to have to be thinking about, and while you're thinking about that you cannot be thinking about work. This is the idea, this is, it's going to help you break up things into work and non-work. There's also a lot of stress in hobbies, sport, because you're, you're sort of challenged, you want to win something, or, even your hobby, you want to get something right. That isn't necessarily a bad thing. What we're saying here is you, you breaking the two away. It's different. It's different yes, you, you're breaking work and non-work because otherwise you break up, it becomes twenty four hours work. You see, you might say, well my hobby is gardening. You know, I, I maintain if you're gardening you're thinking about work, or you're not thinking about watering or whatever you should be doing in gardening. You can still be thinking about work . Yes, and then you, and then you cut off your favourite plant in the garden. Probably yes, but you see but if, if For example, er, if for example , you were doing something, I don't know, say you s , said erm, I'm definitely going to go and learn another language, I'm going to go and learn German, let's say. So you go off to this evening class, while you're doing that, you can't be thinking about the problems at work, because you've got to concentrate otherwise you're not going to get it done. Or you might go to a sports club and meet some colleagues, or some friends there, and while you're training together you're talking, about other things, you see and again, you can't be, you're not thinking about work. This is the whole idea. Yes there is a certain amount of stress in competition, but it's er, in a different way. Yo , you're challenging all your efforts into a different way. Er, do one thing at a time, these A types who juggle all these different jobs, still can't get them all done. Yes, I'm very clever at doing all this. One thing at a time. And seek to manage your time before other people do. You be in charge as much as possible of your time, and whatever it is you're going to do. Now you might think well, what about all these people at the top then. All these A types that must be you know, top of industry in our society. Well another survey was done to look at these people at the top and see how they're coping, and a big surprise. They're not A types, and they don't know why. And they've come up with several suggestions. Either the A types are too busy doing other things, the wrong things, and they don't rise to the top, you know, you can't see the wood for the trees. That type of thing, or they were A types and they learned to modify their behaviour, and survived or the A types are dead before they get to the top. That's the way. Giving the B's the stuff to get there. I'll leave you to choose which one you fancy. In the higher, the higher up you go, you delegate it. Yes, yes, but you, it's in a different frame of mind isn't it? And whereas you can see if you might have A type behaviour sort of lower down,, you think if you really want to rise, you're going to have to cope. So you modify your behaviour, delegate, see, take a longer term view of things. A fair bit of A fair bit of socialising comes in, things like that. So you, you've got to think about those, because if you want to survive, and you also want to go on. What was the second choice B, the m , they learn to modify their behaviour. Er, we need to also think about erm, er, B types, because B types may not be being assertive, and I shall talk about assertive behaviour in a few moments. They, they may sort of be very submissive, B types, and therefore they can be stressed in a different way. So I'll, I'll talk about that in a moment. Right so what causes you to be distressed, stressed? Who or what causes you to be stressed? Eighty to ninety percent of stress is self-imposed. Is it stress or frustration? No it's stress because it's your, it's the way you perceive things. Because you can tell, you can have two people in a situation, one copes really well, sails through it, but the other gets really stressed, and goes down hill, and can't cope. It's to do with their personality, their perception of the event, their upbringing, their beliefs all sorts of things like that. But it is, you have to accept, you can't blame the boss, the circumstances you're in, and things like that, it is the way you react to it. This is what's causing stress. I thought companies were ensuring that you wouldn't take that on, that stress. It appears that more or less the company would do it. I would think it would, yes, I would think it would be people, more and more people are coming round today with the idea that people need to go away, send somebody to get something. Erm, B P for example, have gone in for what they call erm, a culture change. It's taken them two years. It's very, very, it's very, very difficult to change cultures in organisations, extremely difficult. They decided to take it on board, and as part of their culture change, they will not have people working beyond a certain time at night. And the manager goes round and switches out the lights, if there's anybody there they kick them out. Because the maintain that you need to le , a certain amount of time away from work to be able to cope with the situation that you're in, and you're, you're not going to be at your best at the time when they want you there. So I w , I haven't heard what they've said about holidays, but I would say they ought to say to people, if, if you know, if your allocated six weeks holiday, you take that six weeks holiday. Because you'll say to people, did you take all your holiday last year. And they'll say, well no I didn't manage to last week in or something. They've decided that you need that number of weeks holiday, then that's what you should be taking. And I think you'll soon find that more companies are coming round to thinking about this now, as, it is becoming more difficult and more challenging if you like, in working in the company. And people have got to be able to cope with the challenges . It, it certainly stress has become, is being taken more seriously, by some companies. Put it like that. Other companies prefer , you know, they've got to be able to cope, but you, you, you know, you read various things that are said, and some companies are taking it much, much more seriously, and they're realising the problems right the way down, right through the whole company that stress is causing, and trying to save money. It's the object at the end of the day, isn't it? I mean they are concerned about their employees, they are. But at the end of the day, they're more concerned about the money. The problem is , the problem is though, half the time you put into a situation, where, I, I, I was due er, a week's holiday, and two weeks previous to that, I was actually changed contract so I was there on this new contract, and in a fortnight I was going to take a holiday, and sort of, well I can't stop you from taking your holiday, but you know, it's, that sort of problem isn't it. Because, I mean, I, I've, I've got three weeks holiday owing to me from last year. Yes, I know, md, yes, Oh, I can believe it yes, yes. It's an attitude as well, from your immediate superior as well . If they're used to working long hours, they expect that off you. You hear these people say I don't ask anything of my staff that I'm not prepared to do myself, then you find something like a ninety hour week or something. You know, it, it is a definite problem. Yes, I can see that, yes. Yes, you, you've got to keep agitating for this holiday. You've got to survive at the end of the day. Do you know, if you're ill then what's going to happen? They've got to cope then haven't they? That's different though isn't it? A perfect manager! I like it. Personnel? I like it, Yes, Right well Is it any different if you Right,th , thinking about things then that do stress you. Now there are lots of things that can cause you to be stressed, and I mean, I'm talking about a lot here. And we're going to go through them, you don't necessarily need to write them all down because there is such a lot, but, because they're all sort of shown individually here. Now, in your environment then, there are lots of things that cou could cause you to be stressed, depending on the type of person that you are. So let's look and see what they are. Things that I mentioned yesterday, you need to be able to er, manage effectively all these things like temperature, the noise level around you. The, the older you get, the more sort of find, that you like to work in a quiet environment. If you've got teenagers, they can't do their homework unless they've got the ra , the television on and the er, the Walkman at the same time. And you say, how can you concentrate? What, what you know. They're still trying to do their homework. I can't work without that actually going on around me sort of thing. Er, lighting, again, you get much more concerned, as you go on, we get much more concerned about these things don't we? The, the, the young cope. Er, office decor we find actually makes a big difference to people. Some tests done in wasn't there, in one of those prisons, and I think they tried with very violent, very aggressive er, prisoners there, and it, they eventually found that the colours that calmed them down most of all was pink. So if you're if you find you have some very violent and aggressive people working for you, put them in a pink room to have their sandwiches, so. Give them pink butties. There you are yes,Even the open door policy can be very stressful for some people. Some people like it and thrive on it, others find it very, very difficult to live with. But, so those are what we call environmental stresses. These are the things that can cause you to be stressed in your environment. But you might say no, it's fine I can live with all those. You know, I'm easy going and I can cope with that, and get on and do the job with whatever it is that's got to be done. Is there one colour that might do, er what best person Blue, blue is seen as being very cold. Y , you, you h , you want, you've got to go for neutral colours, that's going to sort of stress the less number of people haven't you? You wouldn't sort of erm, if you think of Fay er, What are the what is it that I don't know, I don't know, er, I, I, I'm not really up into this, but for example, the reason that McDonald's uses red, is because it's part of their culture of being classed in an so if you used green. Pizzaland use green, because they want it as a more relaxed atmosphere, I mean there's a lot in colour psychology, and I, I'm not into it. But er, if you, if you really wanted to find out there is quite a lot in colour psychology. Oh yes, even, yes, even things like that yes. But of course we've got to be a bit careful, because the Americans are going, sort of the other way now, that people can't wear perfume and deodorant, that, that smell and things like that, can they, because it's now seen as being equally as difficult as people who smoke. So you, you've got to be careful which road you go along, oh, yes, haven't you heard this in America? Okay questioning technique. Er okay it's a little bit about questions we should ask so in summary then what sort of questions should we ask the group? Okay What type of questions? Just testing you. Remember? Over questions? Which one shall we avoid then? If we should use what sort of to vary the style of questioning? If you ask a question to the group who's intending who can tend to ask for it? You just throw out a question . Well let's see er what did you do last night? No one answers Either no one answers or, or what? The person you're looking at. The person you're looking at. So don't forget you can use by, it doesn't work with you lot, but it You know I save a lot of time preparing that one okay. Now what d'ya think the answer to that is? And this husky voice from the other side which is another thing you have to look out for in training if you're asking . There's one or two things that are naturally more forthcoming aren't there? Yeah? The more readily answered questions, nothing wrong with it, it's great but again er you fall into patterns don't you I'm sure you on training courses we know that er one or two people are content to have the answer, so what will the rest of us do? There's nothing wrong, you know, but again it seems the nomination of people. Okay so ah the next question the remarks anyone looking across at him we put a bit of pressure on them and they take interest. So nomination of the person. Post is the way of nomination and also direct nomination. A little tip for you I mean one of the things I do when I'm writing a training manual or something like that, I will actually write my open questions in really bold letters on the script. You know I, I, I mean I haven't written this one and it makes it quite difficult for me to see some of the questions, but I actually write I think that's the most important thing in training is asking questions er and I'll perhaps bring down some examples to show you. Exactly the easy things to forget about especially when time's against you if you get to answer questions don't ask the questions, what's gonna happen? Don't understand. Don't be frightened of asking testing questions. Don't be frightened of what else? Performance of silence, give them a chance. What's the other side of questions, we talked very briefly about questions to the group, what's the other thing we should be looking at? Yeah. The swine's asked you questions now. What should you do with questions from the group? You genius, you should be here. Why do that? It's another way of Right. Yeah? Or d or else, what else? because again as adults we realize that if every we ask a question to the trainer you're asking questions to him and they keep answering them, what does it mean we can do as trainees? Switch off?sitting there with a row of people. What would happen then if that happened?you know fifteen minute monologue. We all knew the answer,. So good idea for questions from the group reflective at the group. So ask me a question. how to train How could you use a Mm I dunno. How often do you think we should use training session? needs. Yeah. What would you use it on? It depends on the situation Probably you're right yeah, I suspect. What would you do? It's all about technical stuff I mean a lot of you do technical training. Erm you know people know the answers questions or they've got an idea material of your own experience you know a lot more than they do, but it's good technique to throw it back to the group. Alright when you get a question. Very useful technique for handling er people are trying to catch you out. You get you do that to people yourself training the easiest way to do it is group and if they don't know the answer you don't look such a pratt do you? Behind you it is something that people don't know you don't know. I think you're honest it's the people respect you more if you say I'm sorry, I don't know the answer, I'll find out for you and then you say tell you what John, can you write that up on that issues form pad or you know another bit of flipchart paper, we'll come back to that. Yeah? What you gotta do though? At some stage or other. another group. The group, yeah, alright? Okay. Now I suspect that when you do your role in place there won't be many questions for the group alright? You'll be sitting there saying to me . Er certainly not today anyway, but tomorrow you might find that erm We'll ask you questions purely because you know that you know yeah you know it's good to see how you get on with it etcetera yeah. Do you tell people when you questions like Well what do you think we should do What? I know that. Another use you see of defective deflecting the question. I'm sorry that was very unfair. Do you forgive me? Yes. Good question. Well what do the others think, I mean yeah it's a sort of when should you let trainees answer your questions? It depends on the question right to the end relevant as you go along. I know it's early in the morning still. Like Wonderwoman now in her get up. Don't worry that bridge has fallen down . Okay, erm it depends on the session. Think about training though, if somebody's got a question to ask what will about sort of something very early on and they don't get the opportunity to answer you what might happen Yeah. Does that make sense? So really it would be I suspect the answer to your question you don't want to keep saying any questions but perhaps what's the answer. questions. What . That's right. So where might you say Okay look er what I'd like to do is ask questions. If you've got a question, shout, shout out to start you on and that start up encourages cos it so often happens yeah bop bop bop bop bop and somebody is still basically looking for their rucksack while all the rest are up the, half way up the mountain. danger of sort of like if you've gotta time like yeah sort of thing somebody else questions ten minutes. Brilliant. Completely lost it haven't you. Yeah, brilliant, that's a, that's a good technique to take on bribe one of your colleagues to answer the questions at least ten minutes er Totally unrelated, yeah. Now there's another thing questions what I'm saying is that's something to take away with you, or perhaps you won't get the chance er try now er . Certainly you should encourage people to answer questions. Most people think that they're being stupid if they have to ask a question they think that everyone else isn't probably thinking the same thing. Chances are they are I think you owe it to your trainer to let them know. So building new introductions ask questions by definition build in. I would suggest that you build in a few nice easy open questions at the beginning of the session. You know like you might be doing some technical training, they say what's er anyone know what motor insurance is? Yeah. If you're running a training session on motor insurance, what might be a nice easy question to begin to encourage people to participate? Right. okay let's expand that, yeah think about the beginning of the training session where you want to involve them. Are we all drivers here? Or how many of you are drivers? Two of you. Hello ! Earth calling moon base one to eight . How many of you are drivers? Hurrah! What's our next question? Have you got motor insurance? car . What er what could we ask then? Apart from have you got no, no, no, no, no cos that might under pressure. Hey? Yeah, well that training session now what sort of cover have you got? What sort of, what sort of cover have you got? What does that tell you as a trainer? what sort of cover available. Yeah, so give you some knowledge about the level of your group wouldn't it and what does it give chance to do? Yeah, it gives you something nice and easy to tell you about, cos we've all got we all roughly know what sort of cover we've got. We can build up from there some of the er some of the er exclusions or something yeah something like that you can develop it from that yeah? See what I'm saying is ask a nice open question an easy one at the beginning that you know most people are bound to understand you get a lot of participation and then start building it up . We will develop questioning techniques as we go through your training sessions. I think it's more when we actually see people doing it, but it's all, it's a nice idea to give you a little bit of basic just to think about, and again we won't be expecting this to be demonstrated to the on this afternoon's role page, you done all your preparations for that haven't you. Perhaps tomorrow. So you'd like to take one and pass it on to me Margaret. So we've looked at asking question visuals We've got involving trainees which, with which we talking about involving trainees think about this side of it erm I suppose this is one of the best ways to show Training should be chunky The idea is that you put in your input yeah you talked around a subject and give you some guidelines, then we get a chance to practise the participation. So if you go back to the sort of where we gave it five or six headings yeah or three to six headings you should be aiming say well I'll input a bit of information on that side of it and at the end of that little section I'll build in some practice in participation and the participation can be any of those ones you've put in there on that list you gave us early on er practical allocations brainstorming, testing, role playing and you get exercises, whatever. It's simply to test cos if this side of the graph, if that one there is knowledge this one here is time. If you went from there to there without any practice or participation, since we've already said you might have left half your audience here and in actual fact so your practice and participation needs to be built in. You do a little bit of input well I say a little bit, you do some input, practice and participation then build on that, okay? Let's move on to our next section. Bit more practice and participation, input, practice and participation. We use visuals give you something to focus on you can see everything's come out no wonder you . Look. I can't really This is my favourite slide of the whole course. Some concentration . What do you reckon the concentration span of most adults is? nine Nine? Much less aha ! It varies from person to person obviously now know that Laura is talk to her ask a question after nine minutes erm absorbed to knowledge. This is for a straight lecture, you know sometimes people stand up to give you a lecture. just talk at you training and they reckon that after ten minutes look at that tern! So after about thirty five minutes what are you actually taking in? Absolutely zilch. So why do we do lectures? Doesn't make any sense at all does it? In training though you can still have the same problem erm you know perhaps towards the end of the session you've probably seen it as and I, I'm guilty of it myself cos we're trying to rap on through it as quickly as possible so we get in ya way by six o'clock or that so we break all the rules late in the day You sort of And you as well. Right erm all the rules people are tired etcetera so their rates of and knowledge is probably downhill anyway and then we talk about thirty five minutes just to speed up make sure we train them, we've given them all the input. What happens? You test it out the next morning isn't it interesting you remembered as proof of the pudding. What did you remember?the training side, it's pretty well the objectives. What about the last we did yesterday actually designers and training, it's quite a, it's quite a struggle that had a long day, been sitting here for a couple of hours I dunno it seems longer and there you are and you're actually struggling You got the notes that's part of training as well, you can refer back to that, you struggle. So they reckon that after about ten minutes if people haven't been involved we haven't thrown out a question or something like that people start thinking about other things and there's been actually a bit of er analytical research on this that shows that people think about three things after about ten minutes they just switch off. Any ideas what this might mean? Yeah, the environment, yeah. Could be, very they're hungry. Food, yeah. . That's quite a frightening thought really when I'm up front here. I'll leave you with that thought. I should have turned the tape recorder off for that shouldn't I! Tell you your mind does wander doesn't it, yeah? I mean mine does, but mine mine does and I'm training, so you know what chance have you got. Alright, so there's a couple of ideas for you, including er getting the participation going, but don't give too much of the verbal. What are the other techniques you do, if you've do a bit of I mean as a sales trainer, I tend to walk around quite a lot and talks about what? Yeah, but what does it do? What do you do? You have to focus You follow me round don't you, people you know you see them he's gonna ask me a question. Also, that's what that's the training staff we know from experience that our moving targets are . Think about . So another thing we said on our list or your list what you put up here was visuals. Visuals are very important in terms of information recall I modelled for this a couple of years ago. What does that tell us? Yeah. They reckon that of the information our senses receive, seventy five percent of it is received visually. Reading, yeah you look round at people and then somebody comes rushing in through the door and you've never seen then before, what do you do? You just weigh up and take so much information in through your eyes don't you, perhaps this person's in a panic or they look angry, yeah, this sort of stuff, do it very, very naturally. Seventy five percent is taken in through the eyes of which we're gonna recall about fifty percent, so fifty percent of that seventy five percent yeah? Through the years though more erm through the years we actually only receive thirty percent of our input I suppose one of the examples are and then we only remember twenty percent of that thirteen percent again the danger of you know every remembers this Well you've seen this before you remember it straight away. Erm th the, the thing I think about is do you remember the Green Cross Code? Tufty Club? Yeah, things like that. What was, what is the Bre Green Cross Code? No you've gotta be a bit more precise though. Stop, look and listen yeah. Good, good. So you remember what you're supposed to do. What was, what was the actual little rhyme? Something like that yeah. Can you remember I mean what they sa what the actual steps as it were when the, you know, when the kids stop look and listen when you do your look left again. concentrate yeah and also kids tend to listen. Most accidents happen as kids run out in the road without looking, alright. Because most kids nowadays are brought up with constant noise of traffic and so covering ears doesn't mean anything does it?because they're gonna get the information and absorb much more information none of it, none of any use but so don't get much information from . This is a very informative handout. You know that sort of thing you can Right. a little bit else about making it interesting don't worry about yawning in my courses, at least it shows you're still alive. Can you share with Margaret please. Little again we'll develop these as practices more, they're more dynamic to develop when we actually watch and see your role plays. Presentation techniques, a few things here that might help you in terms of making it interesting as it were and the actual delivery of your training your posture, keep your posture erect, but relaxed I don't really know what that means but er er stand up. What's the da what would show if you're standing up, what would demonstrate that you're not relaxed? Like this. No I know what you're doing that means you're relaxed when you're actually training. What else then? I Right. Movement. Simply nervous trainers tend to stand in one spot,feeted feet rooted like a tree to the ground. Move around,engaging the groups are more involved. Again it's true though isn't it? People will stand there and they will clutch something, you see their knuckles are white you know and these sort of things erm or they'll have their notes you know here, and let's be honest about it yeah I can remember when I started training I think you know you used to cling to your notes a three feet flipchart, you know what can't you see? Can't let go of this. Anyway, and all this sort of stuff, so it's all about getting yourself prepared and knowing what you're gonna say etcetera etcetera. Does th anyone worry about using notes, it doesn't make you feel as though the trainers know what they're doing does it? If you see the trainers looking at their notes . What might make a difference though in terms of posture? Okay so erm I think it's also very important that we look at gestures. Important gestures cannot be able too often and this restricts communication. We use gestures for emphasise normal conversation about what with our hands. gesture in front of a group exactly as if you were having an animated conversation with a friend nothing more, nothing less. Do you understand that? What would that demonstrate, posture, terrible isn't it? If you're talking about a subject that means gestures what should you be doing? Yes, course you should shouldn't you. So what's, what sort of gestures should we use when we're up front? Don't be rude! gestures, big ones, enough to you know you don't want to take off but open gestures, get your hands moving, doesn't matter does it. Er again it's a sort of you know like that form that format don't worry about it if you do it, it's just that sometimes people will say it's the change of gesture. Get some movement out there we had a young, a young lady who er she name and she's up front in the cabinet you know every opportunity she had she was looking for round the room, but not sort of in the round the outside all the time and it's just that she wanted to be with a group of people all the time. It was great, it was you know so, so when training rooms are set up we used to sit here behind this barrier as it were, there's you, there's me. . So usually use gestures then it's got some things here, it's got some little matchstick men on the next page. the first one. Keeping your hands in your pockets What's the danger of your hands in your pockets? I've never heard it described that way before but there you go er You jingle your change, dead right. Er again after you do that very same thing erm you know jingle your change and one of them he said that I reckon you got three pound eighty. He reckons he's got six pounds you know and it's just so distracting. Keep your hands out of your pocket handcuffed behind your back Yeah and what, what, what do we think she means that you know what do you stuffy, yeah? Pompous. Pompous, yeah does that ? Might do because it's not close gestures differ. What are the others keeping your arm or keeping your arms crossed, or in a fig leaf position. If you would like to demonstrate a fig leaf position. Andy, well stand up demonstrate a fig leaf position. I don't know a fig leaf Cos I've no idea what it looks like I'm sure it's like this or is it like that? No, no no that doesn't look a fig leaf, does that look like a fig leaf position to you? Yeah Yeah it must be, yeah. Quite interesting really. It's just that exaggeration because you know basically . Right or wringing your hands nervously. Eye contact, eye contact. What's it mean by eye contact? What's good eye contact? It's good though isn't it? Eye contact. definitely trying to avoid my eyes now there's a few eyes round here that look more like route maps of the M twenty five! Erm,eye contact if people avoid eye contact what's it mean? They lack confidence. They lack confidence, simple as that and one of the things is that as a group you come in and you probably look at people when you and you look at the trainers and the idea is that early on people can do, can keep some eye contact gonna stare you out but just keeping your eyes and don't flit away and also when you're under pressure at this stage his eyes challenge you or something like that, then your eyes go down. So again it's just thinking about the eyes the eye the beginning . It's says rule of thumb that eye contact is one to three seconds per person Ah that's you look. Marty Feldman does anyone remember Marty Feldman when one eye went this way and one eye went the other?that you know watching this happen . Using your voice your voice I'm not gonna be too worried about this erm monotone monotone yeah. I'm not too worried about it because erm a, a lot of people natural accents, regional accents and that so others come over as quite monotone don't they sort of thing. It's a big problem, it's just that fluctuations you do, if you are aware you've got some . Some trainers go down . What else have we got talking too fast. Now suspect that this is something that most people fall into on their first few training sessions which is all to be about this er er er have you got any questions and most people I was gonna say good morning, but you got a paragraph down now and it's all about slowing down and you can speed up as you go through but it's certainly the opening slowing down. Slow down, slow yourself down in training sessions. Yeah. We had we had a training session for ourselves like you know Right erm right what was I saying yeah erm slow down, what's the other way have a drink of water yeah. Breathing, it does help you know sort of you know morning everyone . Big gulps of it much easier. answer the question nice and easy question slow it down. Problems with volume on the last page erm I don't that affect most of you erm you won't be, you won't be talking to cavernous places will you? If, if you do any of your training it will tend to be rooms about this size. . So before I talk through some of those, cos I think that some of those er if we just gave you the handout you've gotta read it training group seems to be far more aware of things like your body language . Is that yours? Er yeah. getting fed up Okay just to finish up now, because we're gonna be moving on in a minute. There's a couple of handouts here which I'm not gonna go into, but there again somebody might think about when you're running group training and there's some, there's some I dunno er points with a few heading samples, so I'm gonna take one and pass them on take one pass them on which I really no, no and there's one over there So you've got involving trainees we've done humour we've touched upon, brainstorming we've done before. Testing role plays I've sent you a handout on that exercises and there's a handout on that . Practical applications a thought about practical applications we need to build in practical applications don't we? Actually give people chance to try what we've been talking about. Any thoughts about that? What should we be doing with practical applications? Past experience. Yeah,past experience to find out the level they're at at the moment. Anything else? Oh no, it's incredible. Again on this very course a while back it was only three people in the group in the week that I was watching and the guy who was running the session had, had worked the equation wrongly on the rating or whatever and the other two, never seen him before in their lives were saying that's wrong and he started getting really annoyed. it was really funny group after it was so funny er with his permission he thought it was funny he saw the funny side of it as well, but they had this big argument for five minutes cos he thought what he'd done was right and he said Jesus, I've been using this for three years for the training in the branch er it makes you wonder doesn't it erm but if you're gonna do practical applications you've gotta give people relevant examples perhaps you start off basics with an example that is correct and then you start building on that don't you then you start giving them the deviations and all this sort of stuff. Don't deal with deviations first cos they'll never learn but build in lots of applications either by questions or by actual exercise. Last thing just briefing cos this is designing the training session is your notes. What sort of notes what sort of things are you gonna do within your running of training sessions for a group training session or it could be one-to-one doesn't really matter. What are the sort of things you need to think about when you're putting in notes together script or . Right, that's a good idea bullet points in large print. Cos you know all the content don't you? A lot of the training you do you probably only need to write bullet points. What might you write under your bullet point? It's just the yeah you've got your main point and there might be one two three four things a bit more information, yeah. So that you don't deviate or forget things. What other things might you do in your notes? Think of some questions to ask. Yeah, that's good, good. So you actually write down questions so much going on you can't be expected to remember everything and if you've got just you know sort of questions written down the page like what is your name, it's simple as that it gets you to do, what? Involves the trainee. What else might you do? Bullet points, questions. Okay, so er what have we got there erm use supports use of support yeah material another thing you might think about is time. Time Basically that's it, how you do it is up to you, the danger of a, a script of a basic script is what? Right, yeah you're stuck to it aren't you and if you move away from it, where are you, if you gotta go back to it, you might have done this for t for today, don't worry but you know, but it's not, we're not gonna mark you down or anything like that, the danger of is what? It's very and you're gonna just sat down reading it. And some of the other things what about you know erm . Chances are you're not gonna use it or or not use it. You write all this screed down and then you never look at it. I'll give you examples perhaps of none, none of these I must admit I, I don't, I don't think, they're not my style I much more my page my training tend to have just two or three points on it rubber stamps on the side flipchart all this sort of stuff big question . Er it's just a thought to say well if I, if, if this training is so important I will use it over and over again, it makes sense to save the preparation time four or five months down the line by having a script and now only you can up with your examples. I'll just check what samples there is this would be more of er this one that's coming over now is entirely the session keep it flowing, there's your content and your method of the syndicate O H P, flipchart. So you're restricting yourself . That might be having and again we're not looking for you to do these or follow these patterns for tomorrow, you do whatever you feel comfortable, yeah. There's a blank page it's okay I might be able to use that er as a structure for more for when you've gotta run training courses at a lot of the time and sample three is just another side that's erm that one of sample two is landscape goes across the page this is. What? This example. I've been filling time wherever I am. Haven't I team? Yeah. What have we been talking about football last night er just an example of erm some of the scripts that we use down here. You see look here's a script all typed out. You know a lot probably to do this. You see there's not much on the page you know just some bullet points. That wasn't it What They're being rude, they're being really rude. Are they? no chance out of all that stuff there what's the most important things? I know if I say that Notes are really important Alright. In summary while we're waiting for our to come back, if she is coming back we don't know do we. Designing training we started yesterday we are finishing the session now so in your opinion what are the most important things we should do first when designing training? Right measuring, understanding. Yeah. You've thought of another element there which I'm gonna write down, feedback. When do we want feedback? Stages. So we want stages don't we? How should we design our training in terms of stages? Come and draw it, come and draw up and show us. Draw it? Yeah. Come and show us how you do it I'll give you a red pen Do you remember that earlier we said participation The That'll do for me. You, oh no, yeah, it's alright yeah alright Thank you. Not so bad is it? So input and then what? Participation, participation. repeat the process stages. Anything else we should think about designing training? . summary at the end of the session. Alright, let's we've looked at design of training as the first step you know identifying training needs and then design. On the areas that we might like to think about design and also delivering training is the different ways people learn and to do that go through learning styles . laugh. much done. Do we need that questionnaire cos erm Yes cos certain members tend Oh would you like to go and get your questionnaire those that haven't got them. That's me. Well I've got Has anyone had an actual break or ? Have you scored scored more Yeah. Yeah, great. Yeah. Have you, have you done it? Yeah I've done it, but I didn't bring it. Oh right. You've all got yours questionnaires yet. You didn't last time did you?do something this week lunch today Have you got it? I just, I just honest to God I hadn't realized at all the guy was sort of and says er oh it's probably I said no I'm sure I was really cheesed . It was awful he said go and get it it'll be in there and I just went er and I could see it all. A nightmare and we had to actually ring the emergency number and in an emergency ring this number Yeah she rang it and this bell started going Oh no. Have you all scored your questionnaires? Yep. and you've Oh yeah, we've got the analysis we've got the questionnaires Okay what we're gonna look at now is we gonna look at the work of Honey and Munnford and what Honey and Munnford spent a lot of time researching was people's learning sides and they spent a lot of research and what they found out is that there are four different learning sides and we all learn in different ways. So far Martin's taken you through how to put together a logical and effective training session. What we also need to think about is we learn in one way, but our delegates may actually learn in a slightly different way. in a minute so what we're gonna have a look at is we're gonna have a look your identified preferred learning side and the questionnaire will actually help you do that. I'll tell you what Honey and Munnford actually found and what their findings were, we'll also think about some more practical applications that if people learn in different ways, what impact does this have on the trainers. It does have some impact I'm sure that you've been the training session and you thought it's really good, really got a lot out of it and you're quite surprised to see someone sitting next to you didn't like that much at all, you thought hmm wonder why that is because I found the content really interesting and it could have been the content matter didn't really sort of do anything for the people, it could have been the way it was put together, put over and the way it was actually structured. I'm sure you've also experienced sessions you thought something somebody's delivered in one session and found it really interesting you've got a lot from it, and yet somebody else comes into the same subject matter and you think that you know wasn't very interesting didn't, you know, didn't, I didn't really wanting to learn. The key reasons before that is that they've actually put the across in the way that's not totally compatible with learning side. What I'd like to do to start with is I'd like to actually put the scores up, put your scores up on the charts and then we'll look at what, what exactly they mean, what does A stand for but what does it all mean. So if you put the scores up first then we'll do some, have some discussion about what they mean. So Margaret if we start with you. Eight fourteen six six. Eight fourteen six six. Thank you. Mark? Fifteen sixteen nine sixteen. Okay, John? Twelve sixteen thirteen seventeen Andy? Five sixteen thirteen thirteen. Marie? Nine fifteen twelve thirteen. Nora? Five fourteen nine twelve. Sixteen two three Two three and nine? Yeah Two nineteen ten and thirteen We've got quite a variety here haven't we? Right what I'll do now is I'll introduce what means and then we'll go back and think abut the impact that they have on training. So, and I've got a handout on this . If we go to the first style of A this is an activist and some of you have got high scores here we've got sixteen fifteen and twelve these are, these are hard activist . What Honey and Munnford found is that people learn in basically four ways, the first of which is is the activist. Now what they're saying is that, what they said is activist action learn best when they get the opportunity to experience new sort of problems, situations, opportunities when they're doing something quite new when they're sort of involved in very much you know here and now activities when they're sort of like business games, exercises, role plays, team tasks that they can sort of get you know really get involved with themselves then there's lots of action and they're quite short and sharp, so can move on to something else. Activists also like being thrown in the deep end they quite like the challenge of being thrown in and sink or swim and learn from the experience, rather than actually talking about too much and then a little bit of action later. Activists like things which involve other people as well so they like team work, they like team activities, they like discussion groups they enjoy the sort of bouncing ideas off other people. Activists also like they love the opportunity in training to have a go but they do like getting involved, they like a action. They also like this sort of excitement and you know when things chop and change and there's sort of erm almost like a crisis situation and lots of excitement, lots of activity, activists actually thrive on that, they like that sort of challenge that stimulates their learning. They also like things which are quite so if the activity involving chairing a meeting, doing a role play, doing a presentation although they may be nervous they actually enjoy that, they find they gain a lot from that and they also like activities where to an extent there's a freedom from constraints, policy structures, they don't like to feel bound because if you think about it a lot of are actually exploring deep end situations trying new things out, they don't like to feel that constrained. So that's the activist. A couple of you have got high marks John and you've got high activist, you're higher than the others, how do you feel about that? Yeah it's pretty Yeah. I'm not so sure about liking the presentations though. Oh. Well like you say you feel nervous about it at first but once you do it, you've got . So there are th that side of learning there are people who like to have a go who want action. You quite like erm learning from, from experience. When I was working at British Airways we used to do a lot of technical training and erm it was sort of on er airline regulation, stuff like that and you could always tell the activists cos they didn't really want to all they wanted to do was to get on the computers and actually trying out things out themselves, they piece of furniture the activists don't want to read the instructions, they want to start putting it together and then they'd learn from actually putting it together rather than them reading the instructions and regulation training you could always tell the activist cos they sort of always like chopping every bit, they just want to they just want to get on the computers and start inputting numbers and they'll actually learn, they, they prefer to do that and then somebody can come round and help them out when they get into trouble rather than some of the other which perhaps like to more up front and that's the activist. Now we move on to the reflector and Irene in particular has got a very high a lot of the others . Quite high. So what's the reflector all about? Well as a the reflector is they actually learn from situations where they get the opportunity to sit back to watch to think about what's being said so they digest in information for themselves. situation they sort of they sit back they think about and assimilate it. They also like activities as well reflectors, where they can stand back and watch and listen to others as well and sometimes within a group activity they actually like to pull back and listen to what others are saying. It doesn't mean to say they don't like participating, but they'd like to you know see what the group view is before they put in their own views so they're analyzing, thinking. A lot of people with high reflector scores like to think before they act. They assimilate, they analyze, they consider and then they make a decision or act on things. It's similarly with similar to the situation for training while the activist would like to get straight into a role of play, the reflector wants to stand back think about it, think about how they're going to, what they're going to do etcetera before they actually participate or get involved. Activists actually enjoy activities within training while they can carry out some research where they can analyze and investigate situations. The things like a case study where you have to gather lots of information and analyze it, I mean that's just what the reflectors like, cos they want to feel that there's you know they th working is not just it's actually working on some fact. They also enjoy reviewing experiences so when you've done a role play, the reflector will actually get a lot out of doing feedback, standing back and analyzing what did I do well, what did I do less well and they actually learn a lot from that as well the role play. They love things which involve producing reports analysis reflectors also like exchanging views with others, they like to think, analyze, formulate an opinion and then have the opportunity to discuss with others. Reflectors like reaching decisions in their own time and on training courses they actually like to feel that they consider the situation and they don't want feel sort of too rushed before they act. What I'd like say with these guys there's no right or wrong style, there's no good or bad, we're all different erm and we f we're all a combination of each as well. Reflector Irene, you've got the highest there what are your views on that? And you can always tell reflectors in training, cos sometimes you'll think what's happening, nobody else wants participation, reflectors will actually stand back and think well what did they ask for, what do I talk about then and it's always like a delayed response you get a lot of reflectors and we had one course once and we had all high reflector scores and that actually told us a lot about participation cos people weren't disguising any they were thinking about it coming in had time to consider an opinion so that's a reflector. The next one is the theorist and the highest that we've got here are John and Andy and thirteen. Marie, you, you're popular on highest scores on reflector as well that I mean you what did you think about that? The er reflector and the activist actually . So the theorist so the theorists actually best from activities where something can actually give them a system, a model or a theory or a concept so we've got Andy and John and it was quite interesting Andy when you were saying well whose work is this because you not really behind so you, you actually scored thirteen on that one. If you can sort of say well that has been proven, this is the research, this is the system, this is the model, theorists actually enjoy that because they think well this isn't just somebody's gut reaction, this is something that somebody spends a long time actually thinking about it considering. They actually like well argued a sort of elegant prototype concept so if you're gonna present a model theory, they like it sort of well thought through, rather than a half-baked airy-fairy model. Theorists are very stimulated by sort of quite interesting and new ideas of concept because ultimately a lot of theorists like sort of to be intellectually challenged they like things that they need to really sort of stretch their minds. Theorists love sort of debating concepts and arguments they don't want to, to, won't accept them at face value, they'll actually challenge them and enjoy the rationale, enjoy discussing them. They will question. We have some people on training courses who could tell that they're quite theorists cos question of challenge if you actually put forward some ideas they'll, they'll question them, not in a negative way, but they just want to know well where have these come from and why and why is this and on your training courses what theorists will do is if you're actually putting together forward and processing procedures that C U follow, they'll question why they won't just accept it, they'll actually question it, not in the negative way but they'll want to understand it. As we said they like being stretched intellectually so if you can put forward some concept theories they, they actually enjoy that. They like a clear structure, they're logical, they're analytical and they want things to be delivered in such a way. They like analyzing and they like sort of practising or getting involved with complex things sort of complex piece of work very, they're really happy in the training session to get involved whereas some people if you put something very hard, they'll actually back away from it won't they cos they think well this is new, I don't really understand this, whereas theorists will ac they actually enjoy they enjoy the stretch they enjoy the challenge. Those two John and Andy you were the highest on that John what are your views on that? Yeah. Andy? Yeah. I'm actually, I'm quite high on as theorist as well and I like to write everything out in full and I clear structures and if I go to training sessions and they're all over the place, it's such a in about five minutes and I have to say hang on a minute it might not be structured in the way that you like it but you can actually learn from it. And the last one is the pragmatist erm we've got Mark, John and Marie who have come out quite high on the on the The pragmatist th the title that you suggest what the situations you actually learn best from and pragmatists like training its practical job if there's gonna be an exercise or a they like it to be a real-life practical situation, almost like a simulation of the job rather than something that's er for example if you were to do a case study, pragmatists would like it be in an insurance-related case study and it could be related to their job very . If you were going to say a travel industry case study and insurance industry prefer it to be quite practical. They like training which they can actually apply, that has practical applications so say if you're thinking of something like erm motivation styles or something like that, if you were gonna introduce Lounslow I dunno at the motivation there are loads of them one's Lounslow one's Hertzberg if you were introducing our training to a pragmatist what would be essential is you could actually show the practical application of it, if you just put forward C V and no practical application the pragmatist would say well this is all very well in theory, but how can I apply it to my job and if they can't they think well what's the value of this. They actually involve like participating in training that they can actually try out the techniques and they and they can try out the techniques in the training and on the job as well. They like things satisfy the pragmatist if you can give them something that they can put in practice straight away o on the job in their job . If you said well you can't apply this time, you may be able to in three years time but pragmatists they like something that they can take away and then put into practice straight away and they can try out. They like training that's practical and they're dealing with real problems. Real problems, problems that they're currently facing or issues that the company's facing, they like real problems activate things. Although some people are quite happy to just because it's training i it they're quite happy if it's a hypothetical situation cos they think well I can actually learn from this, I can, I know what the concept structure is, I can learn from it. The pragmatist wants it to be they want the structure they also want it to apply you know to real-life stuff, they're not into hypothetical made-up situations. There are valuation forms they usually show the all very well much more to erm give away of, of er their learning styles. Right so those are the four styles. What what we mustn't do with Honey and Munnford is just take things at face value because what Honey and Munnford did is they actually carried out interviews with a thousand people and what they decided that I mean they carried out interviews with er lots of people thousand and they had a general study where they carried out interviews with a thousand people and what they said was that in particular with the reflector a l some, some scores are naturally higher than others and that what we can't do is just sort of look at these and say well this is the highest score, therefore I'm much more of a, of a reflector than I have of, I am of the other three, all we actually need to do is compare our scores against the general norms. If I show you the general norms it makes a lot more sense. For example if you've got between thirteen and twenty for an activist that's a very strong preference, however for a reflector a very strong preference is eighteen to twenty, because by nature most of us tend, you know most of us tend to stand back and think so what we actually need, what we wh what we can see is that when we compare our scores against the general norms it's a much more accurate picture of our learning style. So what we can see for the activist nought to three is a very low preference so Irene has come out as a, a very low preference on that, four to six is a low preference so that's seven to ten is the sort of average so that one's the average, that one eleven to twelve is a strong preference so John's come out as strong and thirteen to twenty is a very strong preference, so that's Mark and Lou, you've actually come out as very strong . The reflectors, the mean here is at thirteen the average is thirteen they're all slightly higher, so eighteen to twenty would be a very strong whereas the others have just come out fifteen to seventeen which is strong, you've actually come out fairly strong there, because the highest score for anything is twenty. That, that, that is high, but then again is very high the activist we don't, on the courses, we don't see many activists coming out as high as fifteen or sixteen, they are . The theorist is quite in line really with the reflector the average there is about twelve and a half. So sixteen to twenty would be the very strong on that, no one 's actually, no one 's actually got this. Fourteen to fifteen is strong no one 's got that. Eleven to twelve, so you're really sort of moderate preference, it's not a, it's not a strong preference a moderate preference and then the pragmatist again that's quite high very strong preference is seventeen to twenty and again John edge of that. What, what we need to do we've got a handout for you on this so you can spend more time looking at yourself, or what you need to do is you need to compare your scores against those rather than just take the highest one. Right for the pragmatists in the group, we want to do something practical learn from that. Erm so what does that tell us about training, from the training when we're training others? And what's the sort of plus or the dangers on that? Yeah. So what do you need to do? And that's why this is very interesting for you because you now know what your preference is and what you need to think about is that I may be a very high reflector, but I can see there's, there's Lou in particular was a very strong activist and when I put them together training, I need to ensure that it's not the way I like to learn, it is a balanced approach others can also gain, I need to ensure that others gain from this. What else is it that it tells ya? How can we achieve a balance What's the ideal balance Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We need to get a combination of all four. So how could we get a combination of all four? Using a practical example. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There's one other To get the ideal session, that's what we need, we need a we need an exercise, we need participation and Martin was saying that earlier, that essential anyway cos people learn best by doing well we need activity and we need to make it practical to satisfy the pragmatist to real-life issues, problems, things that on the job. We need the theory concept behind the method and we need to build in that people can think, digest, analyze, because as we've seen by nature most of us have higher reflector scores than we do the pragmatist and the reflector are higher than the theorists and the activists all have a tendency . Right just one last thing that we need to think about is that as I said with the with the learning styles, there's no right or wrong you know it doesn't mean to say that you're wrong because you like to have a go or jump in and you're not wrong if you like to have time to spend, there are no right or wrong styles and also what we can't associate the styles with, which people try to do sometimes is they try and identify the introverts and extroverts. I mean you can't do that there is no correlation between you can't say that all the activists are extroverts cos are actually quite about the way they but they do like to have a go and it doesn't say all the reflectors cos they're sitting back and thinking and they're actually quiet reflectors. Right, so that's all we want to look at with regards learning styles I think the key thing to remember is that we mustn't fall into the trap, because it's our learning style if we actually put together our training which reflects our style. So as you said the danger is that it's not balanced for our delegates and the ideal is that we want the combination of all four. So if you think back now at times when you've done a training session and you thought I can't understand why that didn't work, you know I worked really hard this may actually reveal something to you you did work really hard at it and you put it together just the way that you would like to receive it, but it's not it just the way the delegates would actually have liked to have seen it done. and that's why when we experience different people's training you get different sort of views and feelings from it because their learning style is actually pushing through sometimes sometimes it suits us and sometimes it doesn't. So if you can get the balance and you can get all four also what's interesting as well is if you've got a very low score at something, it may be they think well perhaps I need to develop that, if I don't apparently learn a lot from getting and having a go, perhaps I'd actually learn more if I can develop that more enjoyment from that and I can see the benefit from it. Is it possible to develop ? No no, there are natural, we always have a strong preference for something but we can actually develop them, just like management style we have a strong preference for, for one style but it is something that we can learn can get more and try and rationale sort of like theoretical we can try and rationalize what's perhaps happening is that in situations when we're not gaining a lot and it could be that it's because it's had a lot of activity and we can actually gain more from it we can rationalize it and analyze it. Because if we can enjoy, if we can become more balanced actually balance our training doesn't it? I know when I first came into training I was really high on er Drugs! Drugs, yeah! Would of made the job a lot easier might have been high on drugs. I was actually quite low on the activists and higher on these three but I managed to wonder sometimes where I worked ever so hard on a session I can't really can't understand you know why it's not going very well and I thought well when I then watched other people do something that had a lot of action I thought well why did they like that more and I never I didn't know but I've actually learnt that you have to put activities in, cos you, you know you do get people with a very strong activist preference. Do you find people Erm you may think that. There will be some who have a strong preference th they, they like activity erm and what you can actually do if you're very interested in looking, what Honey and Munnford have done is they've actually taken Good morning. Er, it's an insurance . . Updated for yesterday. twelfth Can you give us a prescription for these? Just some more of those? Aye, sure. That's that covered. That. Twenty second Twenty sixth I've got an interview. Are these helping? Aye. Good. Aye,I think I've a wee touch of the flu. You must be the only one Is it back? Oh aye. Aye? Oh, it's never been away. Oh, I feel terrible this morning. Never been away, it's been the last month Oh I never caught it, right enough, but I feel as if I've caught it now. Well let's see if we can get things quietened down for your life. Have it easy. In the past month in here, well, it's been like that every day. Been like that every day, there's never been a, a quiet day. There we are Charlie, that'll keep that right for you. Okay, thanks. Okay, right. Cheerio now. Cheerio. Yeah, stick it up your jumper,Oompah oompah! What do you think Mike? It's very nice that! oh it looks lovely! It's got a got a lovely little brooch. Oh very posh! Do think that's enough? Come and Barmow! Bar plane! Triggooms Now that's enough enough of that rubbish right? Two Two big-uns It's got a recipe here. Chicken soup. Any carrots? Pardon? Any carrots? Erm three. aren't they? Oh that'll be plenty yeah. Any spuds? Four or five. Four or five large spuds, one large onion three carrots. Can you get the pressure cooker out while you're in there please? Er plain flour There's the pudding. I think it might be fish stew again tomorrow. No, pork probably. in the morning. Enough plain maybe he just tries it on and thinks if you don't say anything he'll get away with it? What else do I need? Or do you think he's oblivious to it anyway. Oh, he knows what's going on. Anyway he wouldn't I know what he said about working Saturdays but like, you used your car as well and it wasn't just when you said that as well. No, but when , when Reg car he said he might put his . About, it's all about money and he says well sort it out and he agreed that we're gonna get hard and all the rest of it so I'll just tell him! I'll just say that No when he says when about working extra he said through the morning or something Yeah. didn't he? Fro on a Saturday morning not I'll just say oh well we're working on Saturday all bloody day! bit like that. That's all I'll say i in the morning and if he says yes, I'll say oh fair enough then. But I said oh alright then. Work till dinner time or something then, then we're going down, well I'll go in my own bloody car the next time! In front I'll tell him that he you won't be using your own car for work again! No I'm not. And, you wouldn't mind but it was last minute that he rung up! What a cheek he's got! Call me then when you wanna do the meat. Yeah okay. Put the kettle on for a cuppa. Yeah, I've put erm put the meat to boil first. Mm . Ain't got no batteries. What am I getting, the spuds? Oh I didn't tell you did I? Before before you came home the white cat came back! Was it? Was that cos the back door was open? Yeah, well I'd been out to the bin and er, he was just sort of erm by the ground by the bin bags the wood round the corner and er then he was sort of coming and he was like dying to come and have a stroke but Yeah. he was like being shy but he'd had all the side of his fur like shaved, and I thought urgh! Maybe it's a it's been spade or something? Or had an operation but there was no scare though! It might have been in a fight or something? Probably Well it was it like a big square shaved right down to the skin but no unless, it could of healed and just not grown back yet No. I suppose. Cos I don't know whether I don't know whether it's a she or he? I call it a he but it could be a So did you stroke it a girl. it in the end or what? Yeah. He he had he came in I give him a saucer of milk. Actually I was cos I I had the back door open and I thought I'll just leave it and if he wants to come in he can and I poured him a a bit of a drink of milk and er, then I went in the kit , in the bathroom and the door was still open and then suddenly I thought God I wonder where he was? I looked through the window and there was no sign of him through the little back window, looked through this one, there was still sign so I thought God! He can't have just disappeared like that, oh God what if he's gone upstairs and in the middle of the night With us, suddenly ! I did ! I thought he might crawl out from under the bed! And then I thought you'd shout at me. Funny about You did that cat didn't come back and ? Yeah. He was a big one! But he ee mm. No but this one must of just gone really quick, whether the wind frightened him cos it there was a lot, the fence was banging. This looks red! It's alright. So don't be surprised if the cat does jump out ! It doesn't look very old though. So I think that was the mother. Remember when they had the sign in the window white kitten for sale? Aye. I think that was the mother. Yeah. My mum says I've gotta put this in didn't she? Yeah. Put some salt in with it. Les has gone out to Do-it-all B and Q or somewhere like that. What for? Some tiles for the kitchen. Mm! Is he doing it himself? Presume so, aye! Mm, it shouldn't be too hard to do should it? That's right Ian's got that tile cutter ain't he? I had it, remember and I gave Oh it to Ian? yeah! It was quite a good one wasn't it? Yeah. Do you think they'll be out tomorrow night? Probably, I should think so. Three carrots isn't it? Yeah. Or four? I think three will be enough. Everyone will be avoiding us like the plague if we take this there with us! Just don't tell them! Yeah, I've put that er rug in tomorrow. Er we'll buy them a couple of towels or something. Or by itself it might be too it might be too big to have anything with it. No! I don't think, has it got bathroom ones in there? Yeah . You can stick them in now anyway. Yeah. Do it when we've done this. Freshen it up. Have you got the heater on in the bathroom? No. Why? Oh it's this I can hear I thought I could I thought I could hear something. God there was like a ra , I was on the computer today and there was like weeee really ringing sort of noise erm, I thought it was just you know, when you're ears ring? Yeah. And I said can anybody hear that? Cos it was very high pitched and er Rob said aye I can hear it as well! Must of been on one of the other computers and er it went on for ages and it was you know it's was irritating more than anything! It might have been that thing that er that bloke puts in them. In our paper A virus. Aye! I dunno. Anyway it stopped, I thought I'd gone deaf! You what? I'm not doing these cutting this into big chunks I'd rather have lots of bits in it. Well, don't cut them too small! No, I'm not doing them too small. Well what do you call too small? I'm doing them like that. That's alright isn't it? Yeah. Ah what was Jan saying last night ? She said she had her This is Your Life on and the Aye I watched that ! Who was the feller? Oh some singer man! Some old er my nan knew it. I turned it on while you were there then and I didn't know who the hell it was! No, I didn't know him from bloody Adam! But my nan knew him he was some top bloody singer years ago! Oh! And he'd just made a film and, we were watching something Oh aye it's and , was it David McCallum or something? He's plays the detective that's chasing him er, in it. And who's, what's David McCallum been in? Man from Uncle. Is David McCallum. Oh right yeah! The one that was on Jonathan Ross a few weeks ago. Well er, she said they had this This is Your Life on and Neil was in the room in the lounge like and he'd sort of been half watching it and then he said urgh mum! He said he doesn't look a bit like he in real life what he does in that film does he? In the film. She said, you silly little git, he said it's an actor taking the part of him in the film ! He thought you know it in the film it was him! The stupid slag! She says, good God!. You didn't mind not going to that pub tonight did you? I didn't fancy going out. No, I just thought it would of made Jan's night like. It wasn't a very nice night anyway. Er, see if it had been a bit more local it wouldn't Mm. have been so bad, I mean, I know it's not miles away but Was it that little pub? it was round you know as you go in say towards Ellesmere Port, well you know if you turn left by the Strawberry pub? no, by the Penguin Ah! and then keep going to that really big band of traffic lights and it's Sutton Way. Ha have you been to Jan's? Yeah. Oh aye! You're going You turn down towards the M fifty three lights? Yeah , on the old Chester Road I know. turn right at the lights and er, then take the first left and there's a pub called The Bull Not as far as that chimney place now, no? No, no! No! No! And then it's the, it was the next pub down, I've been to The Bull with Jan before when we were on er you know, come home from Wigan or something when we were doing the counters. It's like well it's all been done out but it was full of old croakers and you know an old man's sort of like the legion. You know, we walked in there and you know how like when we're doing the counters I had jeans on and a big baggy jumper, we were the best dressed in there! And the feller's eyes were popping out of their heads! It's been the best bit of talent we've, they've seen for a long while! If I'd have Jan with Ben and we thought it was a new girlfriend. I hope not. Dear me ! I hate this job! Well do you want all in bed I'll go ? No! I don't want her beating it and then have to pick all fat off it! Grill a meal that every morsel in it is full of meaty goodness ! . Just like Winalot Prime! Mm, tender bites mum! Yes er! I like that woman I think she's got style! Oh dear me! Tell you what would be a good idea. What will? Check to see if your steak's burning! Well something's bloody burning! But there again . I'm gonna ring Nicola tomorrow have a Traggoon talk I think. Meant to ring her today but I was ? too busy. Cos I was ringing her She's been at work today! I know but I was gonna try and catch her on her dinner or something. Why didn't she go back home for dinner? No, but like she might have a minute while she's having her din ,the they're really busy you know in there! Are they? You wouldn't think it! Yeah! And, oh I didn't tell you this either that she was going for a promotion! I thought he was going for the interview for the job Sorry an audition thing she had, she hasn't got they were very impressed but she hasn't got it. But she thought well it's been a good experience anyway and she tho felt that she'd played her pieces well erm What was the audition for? Was it an orchestra like? Oh, I don't know! Er oh I'm jus I don't know. But erm they did let her know that she hadn't got it instead of making her wait the four weeks or whatever it was Yeah. supposed to be which I thought was good of them really cos you know, it's nice to know isn't it? Well Well she wasn't too bothered it's all experience isn't it? Mm. But no, she's gone for this promotion in work and er even though she doesn't think she's much chance of getting it because there's two permanent lads there that really you know would be next in line rather than her sort of thing but she's you know, she feels she's done her bit and that, you know, it's worth going for and like I said to her you might as well! Nothing to lose. Oh no! Er, you know, she might get it. But she's more organised than these lads you see, whatever the duties are you know, she's got hers up and running and whereas they're still a bit you know haven't got it going as well as she has. So er I says well worth a go! In for a penny in for a pound! She were just telling me one of her friends that sh when she was in How did you get on at that wedding? Erm well I haven't spoke to her have I? Well your mum has hasn't she? Ain't your mum said nothing to her? She said it was alright. Well what was mum saying erm Well your mum won't go in until Sunday will she? So we will be No but she did say ah er the other day when we were up there she said ooh yes the very part of Kent she was at was where that Ah, somebody was oh they were with the gyppos or something. Oh that's it, yeah! That was a good saying the other day weren't it? Built like a gypsy's dog! Yeah. All dick and bone! What was that on ? Oh, on Radio one listening with my mum the other day. ! I thought, now there's one! Ah dear ! Well don't burn that! Yeah. Be a nice quick tea then this for tomorrow won't it? Yeah. I'll try and ru , try up Langley in the morning, I'll get a do we need bread anyway? Could do with one I suppose. next door's, he said we can get some anytime, get you one when we get . Yeah but I'll get a a crusty cob of Ooh! french stick or something. Be nice with it! We haven't had it for ages have we? No. Ah ha. Is that hare or a rabbit? Can pull it off this end? There. Alright! How can you tell? Longer. Like your tongue ! Int chicken greasy and Oh you'll have to give Tosh and Liz a ring. Won't we? Yep! See how they're getting on. Well that to eat all the meat today. Was he? Aye! It doesn't seem long since , looking like Chris , just after Christmas it was! I was only thinking yesterday when I was getting the thingie licence erm it seems ages since we've had a one! Yeah, well they did because they all come in a quarter don't they? They all start coming again now. I know but like you sort of forget don't you? Sometimes they seem like they're just coming all the time don't they? Well they are! What do you mean? Well it's just like phone bill kind of thing. Mm. Oh I Except for Oh aye! for the electrical bill. Yeah. And then it was the cu , we'd payed that and then a couple of weeks after it was the phone and then it was the gas! Yeah I see what you mean. And then you have a quarter then it'll start with the electric, then phone, then gas again! Yep. Yeah, I see what you mean. But they always around about Christmas time. My mam reckons that the You can put this through to soak anyway, this plate. The what? Are you chucking this out? We've only just had it! There's nothing in it! Mm. Nothing in the way of kitchens going begging, no? While you're going upstairs get us a bottle of beer please? Can't . Urgh, all the blood off that meat is making me feel sick! You know on that murder squad Aye. when it said the bottles had stuck to the blood on the carpet? Well no wonder! How many in there bottles now? Get some more of this . I don't, none I don't think. Why, isn't there any left in the cupboard? No, not the one. You pest ! Let me just rinse my hands they're horrible! Oh that looks fine to me. Here's the onions. Ah dear! On a quarter? Well at least up up to the top of that rim thing whatever it is. And then we put two pints in it after don't we? Where's the tea towel? Do we? Yeah. I keep topping it up, we'll have a oh if you you don't want a cup of tea if you're having a beer. That'll do. Do you put salt in it? No. Who told me not to do it, put salt into the water then? I don't know. I'm being a good girl! Well how much of this beer's left? About forty eight bottles I suppose. God! Thought we might have Joanne and Paul round over the next couple of weeks or something before the wedding pre-wedding, it's only about six weeks you know till their wedding! I know! Right, that's cooking, we've got those there I've got and Oxo, I've got the flour and that vill do! Excuse me! I vont, I vont, I vont a carrot! If you're having a beer I'll some of my wine! Said to Jan, she said er today, er today she hadn't slept much last night I said God I'll bring you some of that wine back we got from France! Yeah yeah. Eleven percent proof, I said so get some of that down you I said you'll sleep for a bloody week! Mike's been off today, it's been good! While the cat's away the mice will play! On annual leave the rest right this wants to go in for quarter of an hour doesn't it? Yep. And how much does it say on there? Oh it says thirty minutes on there. Let it have a good bubble! Do you think I should put that rug in? Yep. Ah, I think I'll leave it till tomorrow. Shove it in as soon I get in from work I think. spill water where you gone. Well not one for here! Mine probably will be ! Pick my wine up. Ah! Ooh, do you know what Jan in work she's she had a phone call she goes oh right yeah, yeah! She come off the phone and she said, bloody hell she said that one of the rare times I go to the trouble of making myself butties for dinner, cos usually she gets a pasty or something, and I get invited out for dinner, you this Viv er, a friend of hers, you know the one that was having trouble with all that drainage underneath the Mm. house and couldn't claim off the house insurance? Erm she was go , on her way to Churk or somewhere and said to Jan would you like to meet for lunch first? And where does she live? She lives somewhere by the Port, but she just sort of done a detour to come and have lunch with Jan. It's a Port. She does that now and again. You know she's got a company car and that and sort of ri , scoots up and down. Erm, so Jan had these butties, she said oh I made them lovingly last night, tuna, mayonnaise and onion and er she said trust Viv to ring today like when I'd made these butties! So she said, will you have them? I said ooh I said let me buy them off you? No, she said you damn well have them and enjoy them! So I said, ooh I feel guilty and all this, really rubbing it in and everything! So I kept her one and they were absolutely lovely! But the onion was so strong, although it was only chopped finely and er, Stevie went past and said God what crisps are you eating? I said, I'm not eating crisps, he said God I can smell cheese and onion or something! I said says it's these bloody butties! So when they'd come back I said yes, I said you know when you made me butties for tomorrow again she said yeah? I said don't put so much onion on! Bloody things are repeating on me ! She said, oh right! I said don't put so much onion on me the bloody things are repeating on me ! She said, oh shut up she said! I suppose I should leave that on full really shouldn't I? Unless it gets really riled! Actually Jan was playing hockey for Buckley Ladies. Oh I know the ones, they're getting a or something? Yeah. Sad thing! They've asked to play for them. They play in kilts did you know! Like,kilty type What like pleated little skirt things? Yeah. Oh bloody charming that! Look like a tart! Well, not in a tartan? Yeah they are. They're not proper tartan but they're sort of like that. . Yeah. They're playing Mold Ladies, with a question mark by them cos I don't there's a lady amongst them! Right, those will do fine! Just rinse that plate. loads of talking . Yeah, it'll be alright. That's all . I told Rob about that place er, I told the others you know about the the judge m'lord? aye. It does rather I mean there's howling! It's right though, it was in the paper! He'd asked which paper it was in. You were gonna say fax it up normally you should just say fax it m'lord. Aye, that's what he might have said like before he could fax it up. Won't he? Fax it up m'lord Yes, it does rather doesn't it? No, fax it up sounds better. What are you gonna now with that that football . Yeah. And then I'm gonna go for a shower. Okay. Will that be alright on four do you reckon? Turn it down Turn it down a bit cos it might boil dry. Oh it has! That will do. I thought you had to put the lid on it for, if you did it for quarter of an hour? Well you can but I suppose it all the juices you know, have a better taste on than if you Well it makes no odds really anyway! That Alright. Ooh, I'm sick of it!the election had already started couldn't you? Well there must be something on. Mm. What time is it now? Half five. Right, this is the choice, News and Weather followed by the What's this I'm watching here now? Channel four, what's on? Train of Wars. The Train of Wars. Repo It's not started. Report on one of the most lucrative businesses around trainers. Oh why the hell they've put Porridge on so late? Did you se , the advert with er Ronnie Barker talking to that other feller and he says oh aye he says we were going through a really bad patch me and the wife who went to marriage guidance and Ronnie Barker says oh did it do you any good? And he says oh it did her some good she ran off with him ! Have you seen it? No. Oh and er Chris was saying erm that film Malcolm or whatever it was called Aye! it was an Australian film that Yeah I know! and yeah, well I'd sa , I'm sure I've seen it before he's he goes and robs a bank with a remote control car doesn't he? With a gun on it and that. Right, Porridge is on twenty to ten L A Law on Granada which I hate! Ooh I'll carry on watching this and go for a bloody shower! Red Dwarf. Load of crap! Oh I missed Countdown today! Well I'll tell you what er, Liz Taylor was on, you know the Oprah Winfrey show that you hate? Liz Taylor was on it and she has lost so much weight! Honest to God she looked so much younger! Have you seen a picture of her lately? You said, you watched it last week. Yeah, honest to God she looked really nice! And sort of, dead down to earth and everything and it showed you a clip out of National Velvet when she was twelve years old you know erm that with the horse in it and that? And er, oh it was amazing! It's a brilliant film that is! With er, Mickey Rourke in it isn't it? I think? Mickey Rourke in what? Isn't it Mickey Rourke? Oh not Mickey Rourke! Not Mickey Rourke, what's his name? Something O'Rourke? I don't know! Not the young lad, wasn't a little feller! Marti? Mickey Rooney! Mickey Rooney have you heard of him? Yeah. He's a little feller isn't he? That's who I mean, not Mickey Rourke! Who's Mickey Rourke? He's that erm American actor . What's he been in? I dunno. I know he's got like stubbly Dunno. designer stubble type stuff. He's an arsehole ! Have a shave with a top still o still on a Bic razor, doesn't take the orange top off! Gosh, isn't that funny Andy Mooney and I was just talking about Mickey Rooney! Will they be in the Port tomorrow? Bloody black and white! It's not! Oh yes it is! Oh! The trainer isn't. Just to get the full effect. Oh I was gonna turn this off Mm? Shall I turn this off? I dunno! It's not going to tape any telly is it? Not really. Is there something wrong? No I thought she had. She said oh no I just rang up for a chat. Where's tonight? Yeah? Oh she's gone in the market. But were they doing it were they? Er, oh I don't know I didn't ask her! No. You don't try to Well that I've got that right, that's the black. Oh ! I, now the ones attached, not the ones they don't like, the older couple . No, the attached ones that aren't But but something about yeah. What's it about ? I dunno, they're a bit funny, they're a bit don't wanna talk! Yeah ta , yeah and Caroline doesn't like those next door No. anyway, the Yorkshire ones. No. Er I can imagine them being a bit like know all if they are Yeah. we're having a church and The older ones is it? Oh I don't know! City Yes, I know what you mean, that's right! What do you mean the one with the taxi? Well they're an oldish couple as well. No. Yeah, and they're copying them. I don't feel er er either that way unless she thinks we're very better than most. I would really like a camper for that room. Chairs are too . That one's almost boiled. Would you like to stick the last one on? Oh yeah I will. Other than out. Only when I say. . not there. Yeah. They're just the thing! Oh, nothing too them then? Wrote a good letter? Oh aye! . And what's he wrote? A nice Yeah, yes and won't Well help us. So you swore blind did you? Make a very good . I upset such a Er yeah I suppose he wouldn't need to comment on the letter if he's . tonight. Bet he's told him his dad's supposed to do that. No way . Oh that in a spell of plastic glasses at the . Oh no! Oh! So what's new? Mm. Well then on Friday night they probably get Oh! a hundred bloody people in there you haven't got no glasses! Russell at the bar, in fact, he didn't have plastic glasses, he had no glasses! I wonder if the is still working? What glasses? With the beat off to Ooh but there's He should pull his finger out and all! It's not, the beer hadn't gone off? But then I suppose well it's one thirty five for Fosters isn't it? Mm. They wouldn't, because it's only gone up a penny like, there's nothing to stop them putting it i , up two penny! No. But, it'd be one thirty seven so what they'll probably do is It'll probably go up now. just leave it down here and it'll go up to one forty the next day! You know the, there's ways to one thirty five is a nice round figure isn't It's it? it's been in a week er Yeah, that's true. You might have to until he gets there. Mould into the brewery sort of thing. that's how it works back, yeah He's overcharging course quite. he is, so he makes it up. Oh yeah! Yeah. He just doesn't necessarily Yeah. Yeah. But I think he's got most of them he's gotta Oh yeah! Uncle Charlie . Back door . Sherry, ah you're a witness! I like to change my glasses. Oh! , this is Oh no! not be done to cook because of the sausage and that splashing. Well what do they taste like? Plasticy you should of done that plasticy thing? as that? Oh dear! They were like . Oh yeah yeah! Jeremy bleeding ! Mine was lovely! been to Harrods when we were on holiday. Yeah. A bit I suppose . Really girly now int she mum? You're telling me! You're the one who was there and that muscly I think you must of gone with him to . That Indian rug I had, I took down there. Right. Mike's . But I can do it for you. I'm sorry, I'm not keen on blue things actually. Shut up! Got to lay the er ! Small room Martine's just shows the er Oh I thought she did? He does nothing for me Oh no no I at all. The update with Rodney ain't he got? Rodney seen anything of him? Well somebody told him something about Texas. Have they been? That was first free visit there. I don't know, have they? It's all in your time, sort of thing. Who told you? Are you gonna tell them about the naked . Chocolate here must be . What chocolate? Tell them about . I remember too! about that. No, not about the drink. Don't she know? ! Cow! No. You've had a good drink this week. There's builders in . Well you must of been gone mother. We've been talking about somebody having affairs . Who Martine? And I could see that this she were telling me. Do you know Oh! Craig just said ooh you didn't add to whatever he said! Have you been talking to Glen or is it what Rupert, Rupert told you about Ted, he didn't know! He would swim Ah aye! you know and Look at that chest ! No! He'll you had he'll you have the working for him doing the chapel. Oh! And then All what? , I remember dancing and he could challenge him . Yeah, I thi but he's on the local council . Yeah. Oh aye! That is when you admitted No! Erm I take it we're we're going to the shops and you all And Carole's coming down is she? Oh no! She's a horrible soul ! Do you still do do you I don't want any er Politics she told me, I don't want any politics around . Can you turn it off ? Barred, barred, I barred him! Ah you're barred, you're barred! He'll be doing it himself . Isn't he silly? And Go on tell him mother about the V sign! Not particularly in the shop, I don't think he pu meant, he meant to get you know cos he's Why he was the one? He told me you knew Phillip was there. What did she do with the ? Oh she was the one . Oh yeah! I know he's been doing to this man as he's gone past so Harry sitting there the not saying you know. That's awful! Harry said you don't suppose they know who what they are, yeah! What do you want to do? Might be worth waiting for this. I think I'll stop on a stool, I'd sooner stop on a stool. Are you sure? Yeah. Aye! Your back! Oh I'm alright. I never hear you say you have twinges in your back Mike. Ah Oh yeah it's awful! Ah! Every bloody day of the week I hear! yes? He does every day of the bloody week he does! Oh I've left my drink! You little rat! Yeah, so er Harry sitting there but not saying anything, I don't suppose he even knows what it means! Ooh! He does, he said ! and he said what else did he say derogatory about them? Stupid he said, meaning the whole lot of the 's so you can see like they're all on the 's side! Bit of shock mam, that's stupid! Rupert. Where's he living now ? You know who Rupert is don't Yeah. you? Manchester house man with the bag fat family! The make, the sheepdog not ours, but the other men. decorated the church I, I don't know him do I! and he said you know, he said they haven't been turning up at that chapel for them, when they've preaching but you didn't crack on they knew anything about that but he just sort of said said no you know remain non-committal. And he said, you know they do alright at ten pound a time they have when they're preach in those chapels, now I don't know, I've no idea and good luck to them if they do! Oh aye! But erm whether they have petrol as well, Mr , cos he's coming from really when you think, so I mean I don't think Your mum's as bad as Albert! Everybody knows about that. Not, Albert er God what was the other one from here that used to make the tea in ? Can't really remember . It's that er oh it's you know, Oh you told them this the other day when we were there! Ah, well you were still like that . Let's go for another time shall we? No! No! I told them Thank God for that! I nearly got it but she said she knew she was just being awkward ! Well it doesn't have any bearing on the story No but whether I got a No. vivid description of him or not does it? But we were saying like er you know, you're silly devil! Cos as we know him you can't believe it! And so the very next day Helen told us of a night time that he was gonna stay and early in the morning he come back door with some papers and I said oh take well it never comes to more than six pound ninety or seven pound fifty but he calls it . Bu But I mean if you get it, a big box from the village shop like no wrapping on . then she same I don't know how long,I mean she definitely called it's . It's too that actually do some . These she must take after them! Oh dear, I said well give it some ! And if she and do you know what? She never told me! I didn't know she had this cold and she'd had it for ten and she's never even so I knew it must be a bad cold, oh dear I said! Well this upset Anne it was the day before when it had happened cos I, I don't think his mum and dad would like to think that he was causing aggro with that lady . And whether he started it and what he said, like he was you don't know the full story, she might have had a bit of a Course you don't she's a little before you don't know, you just don't As I know her I can't imagine it. But, you never know! What have they done to her? Ask Peggy. They've had to open a service for them, they're all getting their stamps Yes. or whatever she might have just said something in Yeah. and he's Yeah but and he's gonna blow it up! She's but he's stupid to should of waited or Yeah. You know he shouldn't stoop to that level! But, you know you could just George. No, that's alright. He said that's alright. That's right he's asked to Peggy and they really are! Just imagine George like, as you know George getting a shock, like he's ! Hadn't got much . And there we are! Mm! We'll have to get off. Watch this it'll wind him up . Pardon? Got somebody . It's er the inquest is at er Oh dear! into allsorts of trouble, they've had a family meeting, he didn't I I I just hear it when never freed any more hostages. Oh that's that's a terrible thing isn't it? Although it's only really because Yeah. when a new chapel on that bottom road, where they're doing all the road works erm where that is the a the address is Glanberrys funny enough! And even where Is it? Mary lives, on the corner, Mary and Bob Aye. where they were , their proper address is erm or something and er ,But like, she's been ill, they're thinking of sell and having a and er She'll not first though, there's a load of them Oh they have , yes! and she fell over . Of course they do, and I don't blame them because they really are . They'd had a , he had to give evidence he said, you know because, I mean he said a few days previously so they , financial problems as loaded as the family are nobody come to the rescue! But I was mummy's best Bloody type your ! Well yeah! And, but I didn't buy it! She part of the family he was the one who could, he was the one who could afford some ! And and people can't get over him! Mm. He's still kept his but he's got lived in, all the property he owns he can have the town square, there's nothing! It's all right to the insurers you know! Oh I suppose he's invested it wrongly or whatever I don't know I I can understand why they didn't come to his rescue, you know, I mean, they've got their livelihood to think about and he was a bachelor where as they've got children, or and he's brothers and they're Oh! all farmers and all got their own families like er surely he had a fairly good shop when he . I know but family's like blood's thicker than water. Family is still Ooh I know that! family. Mike, I agree, I'm the mother ! Mm. That's what I said first, I said ooh they'd had a terrible job! I could just see if she wanted to adopt Yeah. me couldn't I? Ooh yeah, cos she is on her own. You really are mother! Oh , I'm feeling old! No,too ruddy . It's just bloody don't think! Ah! I said it looks a bit too small, fifty metres. Doesn't it? Cos a lot will be meeting, even in the bar! Mm. All in that corner, all in. do you? I'll let somebody with a cup of coffee , especially if they've gotta drive. Well I'm not that sure really. You one again? Yeah same Yeah it's that . But really Depends on how long you've known each other I mean fifteen years and you've only just ! Ooh! So that. now though , what did you think of the damn ? They pay a perfectly . Aye, listen here! Where? And you'd just had a plastic cold just the favourite because for our Martine and pull her along in it. I mean,, she said we'd have to give, I said oh I said, we used to, guess what I said? Of course we didn't know them like we used to wear them . So she said that big girl!oh I think I'm getting it so I said, but I know you used to talk about it, and I said here we go!and her I didn't know the others, but Tom said one of the other things is a it's this girl, but I said no she's got a and then she said and I, and I thought that's a big , I didn't know! A little tiny three year old, oh I misunderstood didn't I? Yeah, you said, that's Mrs 's boy, but she said I thought the two big ones wherever she said no, she'll have it she thought about me,bu but but er she said it was a funny ! Wasn't it? I said what I didn't know! She said it was. Ooh yes, I said it's very funny on a Friday night! Cos we didn't know whether to clap But nan says that er, the were, the wasn't What? as good. Nan said. Did you go The Friday night they went. On the, on a Friday. Said it wasn't as good as when we and . Yeah, you've just gotta laugh! She said er that erm She said to Susan will it be better than ? Big fancy does are you? yeah! Being diplomatic! Yeah. Erm, no what was I saying, she said? ! What are saying ? So what was I saying, what was I gonna say? So ? Breathe in! Ooh that was it, yeah! The rear engine ooh she said the the key's in Ken's house and we all sat we didn't know whether to clap or get up and walk out, whether she'd finished or not! Ooh, I said! Well I said, what's the finale? And I I said , he said ooh yes, the two girls come the alley on their own this is the their birthday cake ma , and I really jumped I said, cos we were right in the front, I thought what the hell's he doing!but what they were dressed in and she said, so I said, oh yeah well I didn't like it that I don't know what's wrong cos all the time they did . It was a show Starlight Express? Oh! She said so I said, so they did do that? Ooh yeah, she said! I said, I'm having a couple of days I said, oh they're different a but she didn't know row of them. She said, she said and then the thing ca came down and this get up and walk out I said go back and get them and get Joe to take them. No, she said it was very poor of them! I I and she'd never said a word! Oh I said, well she had to say something gave the three back, get her flowers and er chocolates or something and the same for his mum. Oh no, nothing like that she said. She said er well they came to us in the interval and Con was just like , I thought she'll call me when Sally has gone, Sally had their address, she'd just you know, she was gonna be in there and Con said, look, did you look at that dress she said,whoever makes them! They don't put sea , they don't put hems on them! I could see Yeah. her shoulder ! It is a . I said to them, well if the woman is , she doesn't fit ! But she said, look at that I run up with !, well remember that because she wants a dress made well it's disgraceful! And she used to do them all, I mean, machine hemmings and and finish them off as she calls them, you know, so Con , oh yes she could of . Oh! I said that will teach her to what for for saying that! That film is not . Well! Oh, but she's only a Yeah. . Yeah, did But you ever well they'll only recent There was a film on B B C two it was on the Welsh I wish, I know Is it about the Mafia? black and white . Terrible yeah! And they had a little You're talking of one now. Ridiculous that isn't it? Erm ma yes er It's been advertised that is er all the week what a good film it is. Oh it's a film I went on, we'll watch that we'll erm What was it? A film you know,six o'clock film. I put it, put it on, B B C two and it was that Gordon on the, on the box. It is annoying though! But DEF two was the DEF, you know that Typical! You silly git! What? Forget it! Did what? You didn't bring ! DEF? It was D E F, DEF it was like , like the Well I didn't know about the DEF! I wouldn't i , oh you just told me you did! Who says? Come on you blo , you're boring me now! What were you just gonna say now? Er on Friday Mike was talking to Rob Rob was at dad's so Mike was standing talking to them,but my ears still flapped . Oh! and er, Mike said er, oh yeah, he tried to straight away at it, I'm interviewing this afternoon well that was it, my head was straight up! We go two lads there with hardly any work on me and Jan are alright now we got a third person Graham hasn't got much on and er Ri Richard's scraping round for work, so of course my ears pricked up like so I thought, Mike sensed that I'd looked up and he looked at me and er so I just looked back he said God, God had never invented a woman with small ears! I said listen, I said if it's private I said you should be in the office! So Rob's laughing and so so er I was going like that then you know a bit, you know, a bit er, exaggerated going Yeah. like that with these Oh you got a, you're not exaggerating a bloody ! So erm Like the ! So anyway, I didn't even hear anymore what he said after that, after he said this like so I was messing about with Graham Aye, aye aye oh! Don't bury them like ! Shouldn't bat an eyelid . I was that shocked I couldn't he myself! I'm interviewing, the stupid swine! They've got no idea what so ever! So, anyway, I must have been downstairs doing something and I don't ne sh sh I didn't know what time this interview feller was coming only, that I was downstairs and I heard Tracey say, oh what's his name then Mike? Patrick , and I can't pronounce his surname! So, I thought ah, so she was saying what's he like? What's he like and, he's gotta go past me before he has , ee just messing about so he says I still didn't give it any more thought even though he had foreign surname and I thought, yeah didn't think of it. So er da then the next thing I was back in the office so Mike come out would you mind making a drink? Er, I'll have coffee and er so will Patrick, whatever he says I said, oh yeah so I said oh does he want sugar? yes, three sugar, I said but do you want milk, does he want milk? Yes, he wants milk. So anyway, we started talking about him, they're doing a survey and er and suddenly it must of been a quarter of an hour later remember the the drinks, I haven't done any drinks! So er I said right, quick does anybody else want a drink? And I went down, and come back up with this tray of drinks and er Mike screaming, and I still hadn't seen this feller I give the other drinks out, well when I went to take his in well he was as black as two o'clock in the morning wasn't he? He was what? Black as two o'clock in the morning! So I said to Rob With a name like that! I said to Rob it's a good job he's coming in daylight or we'll ! What did he say to that ? Yeah ! He's on the nightshift. So Rob said then er, something about it's a good job you didn't say how do you want your coffee black or white! Said yo you'd have had to send . But er so what the hell position he's gonna be! Oh, what did he , did he last ? He really looked young though! Yeah. Oh! About Mike's age I would say. Twenty six Twenty three. think he had as a bouncer or something. Yeah. I said he was quite young looking, about Mike's age! Oh, I thought you said not young! No, I said he looked quite, about Mike's age! Oh ! But you know, he was built like Yeah. with this big bum . More like a ! But you have to he looked real smart, you know? Yeah. And er, I walked, I said oh hello er, cos Mike had just gone, he'd gone and er, I said oh one coffee there for you, he said thanks very much it's most generous of you. Ah! I take it Did he have big lips? know what they're playing at! Mm. Did he? Oh! Well just sit! But erm I'm used to taking like his lips are sticking to the window! That's a good one! Oh! Erm He er yeah but, I don't think Mike's that er, I mean I di , but he does Manpower forecasts every year. Er and he comes up with x equals y z and all the rest of it! And we're still really . The man's a complete nerd! Never mind. So you got what you wanted didn't you? No. Did you see that programme last night? Aye, what? B B C two about the stolen cars. No. Oh! Bloody hell, the things they get up to! You know if you buy a car that's been, like it's been pinched or something like that? But you buy it in innocence. Yeah, buy it in innocence and if it's been robbed the police confiscate off you you get a piece of paper saying that they've got it, and that's it you've you've got nothing! Go on! And the insurers Well that's what happened to don't have anything to do with it! Siobhan's dad! Yeah. Yeah, was the rest they'd have to pay or It was, he's still paying it off now for his car! Oh! Mm. But er they were on about that they ship them abroad and th , they were interviewing a lad in London he said oh, he used to get up in the morning and er go down to the phone box and phone this contact they know and he'd tell you what cars you wanted pinching this day and they pinch them to order! Oh yeah how many would you say you'd pinched in year? He said, well, he said there was two of us he said working together and er, I'd be look out for my mate or he'd be look out for me, he says erm ooh, between five and six hundred a year, he said they pinch! Ooh! Ooh! Oh! I said and they . Cos easily it was a co couple a day! Yeah. Yeah. What said, you know how, how did you get into them? He said, well let's put it this way he said I can get into a Ford and start it without breaking any windows He can do? yeah quicker than I can with a key! He didn't say what he did Oh no! but he said, a Ford he said, I can break into a Ford without breaking any windows and start the ignition And quicker than someone quicker than anybody with a key! Good God! But he was a a reformed now he was helping other people ge get away from pinching cars like in a they have like Rehabilitation . you know, rehabilitation centres they . He said, what we used to do he said Did you see his face on that? Oh aye! Oh yeah, he wasn't payed for his crimes and he was and they said er How old did he look now? He wasn't old was he? No. Twenty four, twenty five. Sometimes, he said we used to take them motorway he said to junction whatever at Dover and they'd be somebody waiting there with the money give us the car we'd go back to London and they'd just take it up the . Well in the Kent,where the is. Ah! Where you have to have a Yeah. that little village where Nicola went to the wedding gypsies involved in that ring. Up there? The gypsy camp they've Aye. arrested six of them all they found all bits and bobs off hundreds and hundreds and thousands of pounds worth of cars, and four wheel drives they specialise in and off to the continent with it. Yeah it's all organised, it's not like like the gypo's will be doing like this Oh yes! Yeah. this is all organised bloody down to ! Oh yes, all yeah! They handled something something like a thousand pounds worth of cars that They did. place where they they were like getting er ones that had been smashed up, and doing and they said that the people that are doing it are top people! You know, they could get a really good job. They'd have made a fortune! Not without them garages! Like, like panel beaters and Doing it make a make a fortune doing it Legally. legally. He said they're doing this as well. Oh! like you got your your chassis number and engine number and everything like that Yeah. and you've a number inside the car as well on the bottom of the car on the floor so er some of them no, they don't so some of them take the mickey of them and putting different plates on of a written off car from a scrap yard so you can have like a brand new Sierra smashed up in a scrap yard and you buy it for like a thousand pound and you this Sierra with a brand new Sierra, so you change all the plates over and do all this on the car and then you got a bloody Sierra worth about nine or ten thousand pound Ah dear! brand new! Sure! And you've paid a thousand pound for it, so he's making all this profit all the time! Dear! And the the police were just showing, you know the ways that they do it sort of thing. Some of them Oh yes! just get the plate and er like stick it over with a bit of er filler or something like that and stick it over the top! And, people are none the wiser they, if they can see it Oh! they go aye, that's alright, but the only way you can tell you'd feel a jagged edge where they put this plate . On the underneath or something. Or some of them they cut the whole floor out and weld a new take the floor old car and weld it back in again. Good He said, and the police said ! as quick as we find a way, to catch them they think of something else Yeah! they bloody do it all the time! Oh they do! Yeah! And then it was saying about the ones where they take the front end of a car and joi , match it to the stolen Joining it, yeah! one, like the one that Yeah. Fell apart in Manchester. There was one in Manchester wasn't there? The Renault five turbo going down the road and had a crash and it split in two didn't it? That's it. And they all bloody died! Remember you telling us that. And er said about it's a regular and er they're doing it proper, they're putting them on jigs so they're welding them and they're out of line and all sorts! Oh! And they were interviewing this feller, he said, oh we went for a day out he said and I'd just bought this car and I was really made up with it he said He wasn't a crook this man? He paid Oh no! two and a half thousand for this Fiesta He paid two and a thousand for this car, whatever it was! I was real made up! And he's travelling along the road and the next thing there's such a bang and it wouldn't go any further! Bloody ! So he got out and he looked underneath and the drive shaft had fell off so he got it towed back to the garage wherever this garage was and they had a look at it and all the head were loose you could waggle them about! And then he thought, this is queer so he picked the bonnet took the bonnet up like that and all the bloody front of the car had come loose and all all the welding Oh! had co come loose! Bloody amazing it was! So he said, you know you can't claim anything off the insurers or anything, so that's all his money No,. straight up the bloody road! And er the police, that was in Kent somewhere, the police weren't it? Cos only so many police forces have got a certain group of men on the you know, sorting all the cars out and you can take your car there life er being like you've just bought a car or you've got a car you can take it and the police look over it to see if it's alright. It's a bit late when you've bought it though! If it's been re-registered sort of thing, so there's a big line in cars all . And the police engineers go round with his mate and he's looking at the engine numbers and the chassis numbers and all those bloody numbers inside the car and he's looking like and er the interviewer said oh and this woman's in for a shock! She's gonna find out that the car is stolen! Oh! So she comes back and she had an Orion erm she sa , she said er oh well erm I got some bad news for you, said er your Orion's two cars been welded together! Oh no, she said you're kidding aren't you? No, no, it's right I said erm the back end is such and such a registration Ford Orion but the front end's off a Ford Escort! Ooh hoo hoo And you know she'd but They're not even the same car? She'd lose the bloody car then, she'd lost everything! Ooh gosh! Bloody hot it were! And what did it look like ? Oh it, it was smart it was nice! Yeah , what have they, those people who are waiting for the police to check it out, the is it? No they haven't, they'd been bought a car that had been like, that it sort of been written off and rebuilt or something like that. Yeah. They knew that had been when Yeah. they bought the car? So they thought they'd have it checked out? Yeah. Oh I wouldn't buy a car like that, no The D V L C, if you have a written off would you? they'll re-register it as long as you can prove the year of the car, they register it Oh, I see! as that year. But, the registrations if they can't prove it properly Yeah. you get a Q plate on it questionable registration. Oh! So the D V L C don't look into it too deep they just send No! an engineer have a look round, oh it looks alright. You wouldn't want one that had been in a smash anyway, it could Yes! be false . But you some people who you see will take that gamble And then there was an inspector from the Not always, not always impressed but he was er Yeah. you know, I know you're saying. Oh, I play heck about them I But know! erm I remember when I when we had the smash in Liverpool with the Zepher The old Zepher now, yeah and er I went there and they give me an estimate and erm when it went in the contacts she does was er no, it's it's more than we thought because the chassis's twisted or Mm. something so, anyway I went there I can't remember all the details but No. I I went there for something and my car ooh I think it was and we had , you know Fair play, yeah. we went to town If I'd Yeah. if it, if if I'd have taken it to er body repair Well they couldn't of done that cos they hadn't Oh no! got the Yeah. equipment and all that had they? and if he could find the he wouldn't of ! Kirby's is the ? So you'd have been running ? Aye. Yeah. It's an old family firm Oh aye! they're all out of it now. Yeah. What happened in this smash up he was talking about? I was pregnant with Nicola, ooh it wasn't a smash as such, you know, it wasn't serious thing. I was pregnant with Nicola and it was that we wanted to change the car, what did we have, a Metropole at the No, we'd just bought it. yes, I know that, but I'm just explaining how we come to be in Liverpool! Yeah. We'd go we been to . We'd gone back for something for them to do something to it, it is the Metropolitan. Oh yeah, it's the Metropole , for this er Zephyr. this white Zephyr, and we got it from Liverpool, Wayne's Drive in Liverpool, a big garage. And, we had it the one with the gear box. Yeah. There's a big Ford dealer in Liverpool. They would said what they would do well they did everything while we were there Yes. and said and they come back And he said from Liverpool wait a bit, and they said so, they looked at it and said we'd have to take it back in a few days time for them to do, they couldn't do it there and then. And, when we were driving back towards the tunnel, do you know Upper Parliament Street? We were No. you go right through the tunnel and this Queen's Drive was ooh, about a mile or two out of Liverpool so to get back to the tunnel you come down Upper Parliament Street, I'll never forget to my dying day, and it was down hill and these traffic lights down the bottom should of been should of been, but they weren't operating, they were digging th they were digging the road ooh, they weren't there alright, I thought they were just out of order cos it was road repairs and a policeman was supposed to be on duty because it was this great big wide Upper Parliament Street, and going across it, if I look at Liverpool Was there, did you do Upper Parliament Street? Mm. If you say it again I told you! . I don't know what the road that goes across it was, but another great big wide road running across it Lower Parliament Street maybe? across it, Lower Parliament Street was the other side of the crossroads! Was it? And, I was prattling on to your dad, saying when we claimed it back when we claimed it back we'll bring it early but What you want ? Oh, he's so ignorant! I don't know want anything! Well I've heard this story! I was there when it happened! they wanted it early, I don't want anything! Do you want crisps? Nothing! Nothing? Ooh, okay! I'll have a wine thanks? And do you want Medium white wine. crisps? Could I have some cheese and onion please? Pint of Stella please? Yeah? Yeah? A pint of Stella? Yeah. No crisps? you were going on about that they said you're bringing back that car. when we send it back in a few days fitting, this job I says we'll want it early in the morning and you can have it in the afternoon, but we were going to spend the day in Liverpool, but you're dad said, I'm not being round all those shops all day, so I said ooh no! And it was me, and I was due to have Nicola the next month,at the beginning of May that the and I said no, I said! But what we'll do is take it there early in the morning, we'll get he back the bus back to Liverpool, we'll go to the pier head and we'll go on the ferry to New Brighton and there was me prattling all on at him and the next thing er, you di , we didn't know that, we thought we were on the main right of way street and your dad started to go across and I looked, your dad was driving, I was sitting beside him and coming towards us along this other road, which had the right of way but we didn't know was a little black mini, I was a ergh, ergh oh Harry, Harry! Bashed your dad's side, the wing and we could see a policeman putting, it was pouring with rain and he was putting his er, big mac on and he should of been directing the traffic, he told us that, he come over to us and he was only young like and he said, oh I'd just left, I was on duty here I'd just left to go and put my mac on! Well that was no consolation to us was it! So we swapped addresses with er, can't remember, it was a man middle-aged sort of man and er he then said ooh, well he said I still think that we were in the right in as much as if that policeman was supposed to have been directing traffic blah blah blah blah blah! So, because we were in the A A he said you could have a ba , and we had to go to court, we had a summons for court, for careless driving, your dad and your dad said oh so A A said you could have barrister, or our insurers said we could have a barrister our insurers, not the one with we're with now Norman , he was to do all the , said we could have this barrister and it was at Liverpool Crown Court and, it wasn't till a , and I was alright we we just got a bit of a shock, you know, we could drive the home it was the wing and what not. But, I can hear that bang now, you never forget a noise like that! But, this was just a bang, sort of knocked Ah. it of the chap, he reckoned. So, er Nicola was born and er the court either came up just before your dad had the after Nicola was born, when she was a month old. Now he might remember I think the court come just before the after Nicola , and the car was going to because I know we had to go on the train to Liverpool and er, I'd gotta give evidence as well, they made such a palaver! And, when we were in the court sitting in the corridor waiting, ooh, some horrible types there even then! This policeman was having to give evidence and he'd come to talk, oh I see you've had the baby, cos he was talking to me it had happened I said, oh what did you have blah blah blah, blah blah blah, but the little devil went in the witness box, he denied about not being there on duty about putting his mac on, ooh and he'd never clapped eyes on barrister or a solicitor and they said he'll meet you before the case, so we had to go extra early meet this barrister and he never came and so they took us in this little room in all his wig and his gown, we got, oh what happened? What happened? Yeah, and we explained and said that I was pregnant at the time and we said about the policeman, oh no trouble! No trouble! But,the lot, you're dad still got fined! I took, it was nine pound we thought, lot of money in those days for careless driving! Yeah. Yeah. So we never forgot that. Mm. Yeah, I I on the old . So, needless to say I don't like them, but I'll show you on the A to Z where Upper Parliament Street is. Mum. Not Upper Parliament And we will see. ? Yeah. Yeah. You're being Excuse me! funny are now? Well don't worry. actually, but I said I wasn't really interested, yeah. I'm gonna look, I doubt that cos I want to know I've seen it on the map, I know! where the other one is. Er It's not How did T V work go? Yeah. Well, he'll never know really will he? No, Don't know really. What is it? We didn't force it, said they'll How many time probably let you know. No. Mm. The only time I remember her , really was in . Yeah. Pushing him! Playing about. got stuck A man got stuck In this car Oh! in the . Shall I make a move, or shall we No hang about! We're gonna come back. Yeah. I always say it was that because they say that they blame if can go away but then it can just strike you! Mm. And then it gets in with a vengeance, when Nicola was a month old didn't it? Yeah. So how long were you layed in? And he was just Were you in hospital for all For a month. that time? No. I told you had to lie on a board Like ? Yeah. You had to lie on a board, his doctor said, oh it's lumbago which, all the signs are the same, where that pain goes all down your leg effecting the or mia , sciatica and have to lie on a board, and we were in the prefab then and you actually er not, like some people put the board are you interested? Yes. , and you're looking everywhere! some people put the board under the mattress and dad had it on top! Well your dad had it on top! Didn't used to really , ooh it must of been murder for him when you think! I mean,yo , he even decided to grow a beard, for one thing he couldn't be bothered shaving, did you remember? And you had that ! No, beard will have to go! Yes. I know he said he looked really lovely with it! It was very dark indeed I I must say. I think we've got a picture? No. Did you ever know that? On the line, there's them panel people on there? And that's when I had the accident on the . , I was gonna tell they had to leave him there in hospital. Have you li I was listening to the wireless this afternoon Mhm. and it was on about this erm place in France , isn't that where one of them lived? No, it was nearby there wasn't it? There was big football team from Saletiendi So Etien no wouldn't, doesn't It was near to er where Gigi was I think. Oh the one No, the other one wouldn't of thought I thought, near I thought it was Anyes . Yeah, could of been if there'd been any Romans in Italy. I know. Should of got the extra ladder. Even er,Lanyon isn't on is it? Yeah. Well it's not that much detail is it? No. Where was that place they took you on er We could do with a lot more Ponsonshow Brest, is Brest on? Gigi took you to Brest. Yeah I know. There you are. Christ, so what, I can't think of it! Primaletta Oh dear! Jan's mum won er midi hi-fi system! Oh, when? In a raffle thing the other night. Alan, Jan's friend was singing and so was her brother. Oh, I didn't know they did other things! Is he good at that? Yeah, I think he's got a good voice yeah. Yeah , do they sing together or not? No. So where was it, a club or pub? The White Swan in Ellesmere Port, she'd asked me Oh yes. to go. You want, you know, so I definitely wanted to go, we were very Yeah. welcome and, I was tempted to go, I mean Mike wasn't all that bothered. was he? Well you've been to a singing one. Yeah, Thursday nights and, it wasn't that local, it's a horrible man anyway! Who's a horrible man? Yeah! Cor! Once I get in from work, I'm knackered! Unless you see one local or If it had been a summer night That's it, let's stay. could of been tempted. Be different, you don't mind a little run do Well. you? That was No, I know you've gotta up just a bad thing to do innit? early, like the next morning. No,. So er we didn't bother ! And er, she was saying ! Yeah! They must have sold a lot of tickets . Was it for a charity? Yes, I think so. Was her brother to do it, Jan, he does a bit of really . Yeah, he does a lot of charity work. Oh, yes totally. Yeah, good luck to them! Anyway, they had a good time out. Did they? And anyway, you'd come hadn't you? Not that we knew you were coming but Oh yeah! it was Thursday night you'd come. That's it , yeah. But anyway erm erm Laura, isn't it,? No, he's a bit rough! Oh ho Cos he ! no, and any case I just remembered Nicola's was only hundred and sixty. Mm. So but it was, oh it was nice drive Oh aye! where can you get one, fifty or sixty surely not? Well , no you can, aye! You? Yeah! May not be a very good make but No. Oh, you can buy a cheap ones with a just a tape on without the Can you? Record and record player Don't have to have a C D on them Anyway,she said to be a midi thingey Oh no! Well Nicola's I don't know what it had on it. hasn't got the C D anyway. Our Jan's getting fought over at the moment. Why, was that Birkenhead thing that she'd had the nark with Mike was it spontaneous? I don't know. Oh you never did ask her. Ooh aye , what them bloody cars Well what somebody there who's fighting over her they were in er then, no? No. Oh! No, I don't know what that Is it Southern Spain connection is. Oh! the Spanish police and er I thought she'd and just wasn't telling me but anyway insurance investigators in Britain. Mm. she didn't. Serve you right, you should pa have asked her there and then! is a like Anyway, go on, what's happened? on the main road Oh she'd got her and anything with a foreign number plate they were Yeah pulling over she had a bit of fling especially the British ones with this woman Sandra, she and erm Has Sandra got a child? They were just stopping No. them and just Oh. taking the details chassis numbers and engine numbers and everything Oh somebody with that parking on the drive and er she is the one like insurance etcetera and i , investigator whatever he was! Half that's the food shop Yeah. And he's calling the D V L C in Swansea Oh very few . they normally just no,remember like that and this woman was in her as far it goes. a little O Opel No, she met on Thursday whatever it was. for long. Mm. Little maroon Opel, B registration she's older than Jan I think So I took all the Yeah. the particulars, he'd get on his mobile phone I am actually . But you've never met her? and erm No. oh it was er and erm and she used to lived in , she doesn't wanna come via it. whatever it is, oh yes that's er Oh! He goes back and he says I've got some very bad news for you and I can't remember what, the last time we were seeing each other it Oh! all ended in tears, and I can't remember why well, this Opel isn't an Opel! Well what is it? But erm she did the dirty on Jan! It's a Vauxhall Nova. Was she ever re-married You're kidding? or you don't ? No er I don't know. it's a silver Vauxhall Nova. But anyway I've and ten o'clock Jan was . they bloody changed it all about so that the,O , little Opel, was a Vauxhall Nova! she has seen her, Sandra once in the club Erm, so what happens now? I think. Oh erm Yes. the police are typing Where is it? a thing up they'll have to confiscate the car! so her results . Been Oh! stolen! Yeah. And For Mick, for Mick as well. Yeah. And they had that and a And Sandra has gone live with Jackie. Toyota Celica, black Were they on holiday? No, she was living out there. she had a Oh I see! House out there. just bumped into each other So it's by purpose she had Yeah and went to with her pal and er he was gonna thump her. it was just they had a big warehouse just full of bloody cars that had been confiscated! I think Jan wants to There's was thousands of cars, cars that were stuck in there. and she was like fighting ! Some little cars there was Range Rovers running round to the Was everything! when Sandra's mum got When they've got them and so oh you really rocked the boat What do they do with them? she said and, I didn't realise They didn't say, they didn't go into it. Well sell them. Aye. you know like, I love you You know they don't sell do they? Oh! So the Erm, she just knew Yeah. she just bought it somewhere and er They can't claim money for these. That woman I said about that had the and er she was in an Orion but the front end of it was a Escort she said I've got my life sorted out , settled into my new home the escort that it be and er it belonged to the i , the numbers I wanna see you all this. Can you meet me on Monday So the chassis number engine number for this Escort and they Oh! chased the feller and he phoned him up and he said ooh my Oh well car's still parked on the drive outside! I think Jan So they were investigating him then! Cos his car was still in the drive outside. All this . Well bloody Oh! But they do it the other way as well. She's gonna lease it int she? Oh yeah. You'll give it in It the car. Oh, I said well I don't know. He pinched a car in Italy this is a Ferrari she said er Testarossa can we have wo , can I word it was worth Mr hundred thousand pound in Britain it was so I knew it'd be something like that it had been shaped she said And they paid up to them? No, so she told me that it was on a car park at Heathrow Airport So erm Why, do you think she wanted to make a point of she might have at work for and it had all the paperwork with it, it was gonna be shipped to Singapore. these ? Because she didn't want go she didn't know what hell Well the same car in Singapore was worth two hundred thousand pound Ah! to do and this Sandra was gonna ring in the afternoon, well she wanted to cos there's such a long waiting list,tha that's the value of it out there get her out it makes you laugh! so they they pinched it and got a buyer out there! And she's gotta I've said to her, listen my opinion may be biased. and they caught him, you know, mid-way type of thing. I don't Yeah. think I'm being So th much help, she says oh no, you are you are! Yeah. I dunno. And I'd like to you to hear your side of Ye ye yeah. things so erm, I knew it was something, anyway so she said all this, I said right well I said I'll tell you now I said you know I'm biased because Yeah. I said I can't I don't like so No. and erm she said, oh no I realise that. I said, well the important thing is Jan if you are like this you obviously didn't like, there's no way I'm going to meet her you're obviously thinking it over I said so the first thing you've gotta do is turn up on Monday and meet her cos erm, then well you'll know. And erm I said, you say to me things like you don't wanna be alone by yourself Yeah. and sometimes Yeah! Course, yeah! and er I said you've al also told me that Sue said there's no way she's going out with him on the at forty I said that's only two years away. Oh, she said that oh it doesn't matter! I said I don't believe that! No, I know but she said it er but I mean to even think of it , you know, is not very nice! Shows how wicked she Erm is. I said you know what she's been like with this young girl at college you thought Yes! there was something going on, whether or not there was, I don't know I said she couldn't in a couple of years time, she said I dunno, she says she's only twenty six Oh is she? said it wouldn't make any difference to her you know whether No. it was a relationship with a feller! She might wanna go off and do her own thing so erm I said you just think on, I said, this woman has got her own house and everything, she's got Yeah. no hassle like No. er like Sue's family. Jan can't go round there so now and she has to park down the road! Ridiculous my watch ! I don't know what they're showing ! Two hairs past a freckle we used to say in work er, school! Can I have a swine please? Yeah. Do you wanna lager bitter No lemon? nothing at all thank you Michael. Put a drop of lemonade in er bitter please? Right. What crisps do you want? Erm, I'll have two bags of crisps and a bag of nuts please? No, thank you I'll have my supper when I get home. Five loads of bacon butties. So, I said this I said erm I said oh Jan says something all I'm I've known what Sandra can be like, you know erm you know well I was with her for three I don't think she means that. weeks. Yes. Well, because she did the dirty on her in Lancaster, I can't remember what it was. Yeah, oh I see what she's means, yeah. No but er Got plenty of stick . Did you those girls Oh! sending their mail to erm Body Shop er, they'd been grooming their nails because they've heard that the Body shops, in the paper the other day erm are paying ten pounds per nail if your nail's an inch long, you know, so you cut this talon off if it's an inch long and they had loads and loads of them sent in envelopes or people just ringing up and asking can we send our nail, ten pound a nail and they said, where the rumour started from these people had heard that because they don't do erm experiments on animals any more they're using nails to do experiments, the nail polish and that well I was saying for experiments and that, don't you thing, just listen to what I'm telling you was in the paper! And er, so they sa put an announcement in the paper to say don't keep sending these nails to us cos they go straight in the bin, we've got no use for them! They don't know where it's come from, they have never have done and they never will. Well we we , you know if you cut your nail you cut the top off, even if it's Yeah. that long it's like that. it's for this it's not Mm. it doesn't have to be a Doesn't matter. whole nail to do experiments! You don't It doesn't have to be a nice shape it's just that so that if the nail polish doesn't Course it doesn't, your nail or anything I suppose. Oh ! Christ you are thick! So anyway, she said oh yeah, so I know what Sandra can be like and I've been with her Yeah. for three weeks! Oh! And I said yes, I said you know what Sue can be like, you've been with her for twelve months and you're daft enough That's bloody true! to still be there! Yeah. Because she you know, she comes in with Yeah! all these sob sob stories and she's still with her! Oh! So I said, you go and I said, don't be as biased as I am I said don't go there thinking oh there's no way you know she's I'm better off with Sue and all that because I said you don't know I said you Course she doesn't! give her the benefit of the doubt and give her a fair chance. Mm. So did she say she's made her mind up? She said yes she said you're right. And did she ring? Yeah, she's meeting her up the Tavern. Where's the Tavern? In the dip at our by the Oh! traffic lights. In the daytime for lunch? No, cos Sandra's got a little puppy she said oh I'd like you to come and see the cottage and er my puppy. Do you wanna come and see some puppy ! Good, come and see my puppy little girl! I said to her, you know what I'm with animals Yeah. and that, I said go to the Tavern I said doesn't matter whether you see the cottage take the little puppy for a walk. Oh! God! Said it'll have been in all day. Oh gosh! So er I mean I think she'd be more suited to somebody Sue. like that Well I'd have thought she did. erm than this damn yeah. What about er and is she gonna fit the cottage in as well when she meets her on No, don't know about that . Another time perhaps? I mean,he's also from Ellesmere Port anyway. What was that? But I said just go and give her a fair chance and I Yeah. said and er Aye! I said if yo if you think you know that you might be able to build a relationship I said then er you know, tell her so I said and don't try and run the both of them at the same time I said No. or it will end tears! As we were clearing up he said oh good God whatever did I see in her! Yes. I said well only you'll know. Or whether you scared him after to death! Well play it by ear that's right. That's it. I said then all you have to do is tell her how much she hurt you the last time Yeah. but that you have goal forgiven her but don't Yeah. bear any grudge against her, but you don't want her He wouldn't care would he? He used to do the same everyone else! her ringing you or, or doing anything and that's it, and then you've been straight with her, you're not stringing her along. Well you wouldn't would you? I said, but if there is any doubt in the back of your You can! mind Bugger them! do you think that you I would! could have a relationship with her. No, no, no, no! I said then you've gotta make that claim. Yeah yeah, there's obviously Yeah. and er you've gotta get rid of Sue, but I'd miss Linda! And you put twenty Yeah, for a little while . And she wouldn't play Yeah. And she wouldn't play in goal for us any more! It depends on what, how you'd done them cos how much would you get done? I said, listen! Mm. I said in five years time when you're forty five Win a few . Aye! er in seven years Didn't get much look ! And they start saying they would do it to people now. And seeing her yeah. she was ye er aye when you're forty five Oh yeah! she won't be any use to anyway! And you are just completely What, oh aye no. miserable! I mean it could of been a lot been worse than this! because you haven't got any one! Aye, there's one in bloody Yeah, but will it give you satisfaction to leave Did er, if I go to this place to leave instead of me? on the the Well at least it kept the hockey going so can and see clearer now. So what are they gonna think? I said, alright so they Couldn't see how they do it all,and that's it. cos what she said is if she That doesn't bother me. finishes this No, no. er game Erm cos sh sh she won't play hockey for them so all the hockey girls what used to bother me at one point will turn against but her. That's alright! if I went into it Bob No, I said, and do you think, how a long do you think they'll a week that's all. remember that? Said, alright, I said the first week said the first week I said, then it'll all blow over and in fact Yeah. none of even bothered at all. I said, but if you're willing to sacrifice to keep all them lot happy I said and you'd call most but from their point of view of them black a lot of the time! erm Yeah. They're none of your Yeah, but we I mean Mm. because I said and finding this out when you're by yourself what they were go trying to tell me was it's not gonna give you any pleasure to say, oh well at least all the girls are alright. Yeah but and, you know we're talking I said you're gonna be by yourself I said, for God's sake start thinking of yourself! my height, I didn't even look at it that way er, he used to Well they're all Yeah, they are aren't they? So I said it's about time you started looking after yourself and not bothering about ! Well problem is they can't win can they? Oh! No, you couldn't, she they're all, they know it's Jenny's asthma. She's too nice you know, she's tries Yeah! to be nice to everyone. She does. I was it was asthma wasn't it? Yeah. Shirley? Not too bad. She's on one of these inhaler Oh things they got to? These little kids on them aren't they? All the time! You know there must It was on telly about them weren't it? They reckon they're gonna find a cure for that. there must have always been asthma. Oh aye I saw that! Yes, well I hope they do anyway cos I think it Mustn't there? must be awful! There must have always been asthma whether it's Oh yeah! whether it's got worse with amount of No, but people have died through it through le ye years Yeah. we we Oh yeah! You know and they'll through ol old lady across the road er From you? from Home and she she died and er, that wasn't spoke of. Yeah. Cos she'd had a Oh yeah! What like, little kids! But these,th it's escalating with little children it's either Mm. er Dunno I'd say a fair . the merest bit of bad chest they have doctors are either saying it's asthma or the mother is er, saying it's asthma and saying to the doctor can they have one of these or whatever Yeah like little James. or it's Mm. the pollution in the air or whatever Mm. he didn't have to have one of these. Yeah. No, but every whenever his chest goes he's Aye yeah. straight to the doctors and that isn't he? Yeah. I suppose you would be wouldn't you? Oh yes, I can Mm. understand that don't erm get me wrong I'd be getting a bit but I'm sure's he's gonna be like that. Yeah! I'm sure it's because he's prone to that. Well our Susan when she was small she was the same. Was she? She couldn't have er she couldn't have a feather pillow. Good God! She was allergic. They, they thought of everything, oh have you got a cat, you got a dog, you got this you got that? Yeah. And in the end it was a feather pillow. Good God! yes! But now she's alright, she had a feather of pillow for a couple of years it's like Yes. a bloody now! She had to ! Yeah. so, you know She sleeps with ducks now! Oh well you've got to laugh! Cos it is that sort of thing isn't it? Like hayfever and eczema and Aye, well she had hayfever when she was small Sometimes you're good you know a couple a years and she's never had . Honestly, when I really really understood. Well Nicola didn't use to have hayfever when she was at . No, she got it Yeah but she got it when she was doing her A levels didn't she? Yeah! You know at Yeah. the a exams and that, that Ooh you've seen me grow out of it now, what you Well go on! talking about? Well this thing on her hand. Mole. Oh she did grow out of she has,for her ! No, she hasn't! She was almost twelve months Oh no she was ! twelve months ago? Yes, and twelve months months. ago she slid up Oh good! the way and she was in Manchester. Erm Was that thing on her hand er That's like Yeah, that's a She said, she thinks there might be a little well did you see Mandy when I tomorrow I just wanted for you to go Didn't you ask? to the doctors, I forgot! When I came off the phone. I can't quite understand the I think she's right saying that er er watch that off Yeah, but if you took the watch off it should stop. cos I know . Ah, I Yes don't think it's . well I think it should, but on the other hand What's she on about, those little digital watches with the metal strip? I don't know which ones, you know. Er No , if it's something like that, if you take the irritation away then it Should show up. it goes. Yeah, I'd agree with Mm. that. I don't wanna Yeah. lose that. Well no Cos I used to think it's this hand isn't it? Where it, I used to think it might touch on this But it doesn't? but it doesn't because it's Oh no! miles back. You know yo Always used to have it on her wrist. Did she? Yeah. Oh, you told me That that before! Did she? Yeah. And was that eczema? Ooh, God I can't remember No. And what did she and used have on ? she used to,bu no, she us used to have one if she used that and she used to have to bandage them Oh! to go to bed at night. Well, if you're in your sleep you're Well that's it, of course! And she used to bandage them tight Did she? and she can still Aye. in her sleep get her fingers down They can, they say that! Yeah, Yeah. And I I was only bloody tiny then but I can still remember it. She used to wake up in the morning they were red raw both of them! Ooh! Ooh, that's so sick! even with these bandages on , just like Yeah. I can remember the bandages being on. Good God! She'd still get her bloody fingers in there though! Does Nicola say hers itch her like that? Yes Yeah, she at night, in bed everybody goes, you go worse for itching Mm. in bed, yeah, it's terrible! But she never makes it red raw. No. She doesn't re , you know Still sore. she'll remember scratching, it was like she said everything goes worse at night, itching. Well, would you mind telling me To do with her whatever nerves they cause them that cause itching. Well it's, you know I've never had that and you've never had that. No. And you've not. And I've not. Why should she? Oh no! Well I think she could be right about it starting off as that, I don't know. They start off somewhere in families these sort of things. It's not like the washing powder or something like that, they reckon you said it's just you know Well that's what they said. you're cuff's tighter than Mm. anywhere isn't it? Yeah that's what rubbing on She ke , I said and when you're washing up and that Well surely it's the both of us ? or rubbing things through washing Mm. I don't think you'll ever really know. keep rubber gloves and she does, she says so she doesn't think it's detergent. Would you mind telling me what the connection is between eczema and asthma? And hayfever, there's three of them. What's what is er something of the skin got to do with All allergies, all allergies. Yeah, but they're not really the same They say. are they? They say they're connected They but I can't when Jan was saying, oh Jennie's got as er Yeah. ex She's got the lot. eczema very bad er, her legs are like corned beef all behind her knees and her legs Yeah. and her elbows and erm all over her really she has this eczema, she's always having to change creams cos they Yeah. get like er Used to them. Your body gets used Mm. to one sort, and they'll never cure it Jan doesn't think. No, they won't. They can only contain it Yeah. control it. It's terrible it is! And er Well that corned beef, fetch us a quarter in on Monday mate! Erm Are you hiding? But like, so she's got that now that isn't, that's just like a somebody with a skin corned beef . but I can't understand how they can say that asthma is in, really in the same strain because that's more like a breathing Yeah, but it's what causes the Yeah. be , breathing problem is the allergy either to the dust in the air or the mites Oh. or the as they say, and asthma's sa , the same hayfever as well in the Mm. summer. It's true, well isn't it That's with hayfever in Southport weren't she, after feeding the horses hay? We went to see them horses remember?bloody screaming! This last time, even in this weather! Yeah. Yeah, well it wasn't hayfever, she was allergic to the horses wasn't she? Hay No it was you can only have hayfever in the summer can't Well you? I don't know, she said But it was hayfever, remember we asked, yeah. when we went to them horses? Well some people Ah yeah! call it that but it's an allergy. Oh, I never told mum and dad that I don't think. Tosh arranged for us to go and see his . His daughter Oh! does horses, she seemed to be very good. His boss Ah! Mark , the main man Oh! his daughter and the last time when you Yeah. went? Yeah. And he took us to their house Is he ? and you should see the house! The ma main man? No, he's not that sort of main man is he? No, it's it's it's no, he is aye, he's the director! His big brothers run the firm. Yeah but it's not, it's not his name it's not his name No, no, it's after, the the firm. no it's whatever, it's Andrew and Yeah. Colin. Oh aye that's where the . A , that's A C, I don't know what the M is, I don't know. And this man wasn't Andrew that you went to see? Andrew and Colin, not Andrew . Oh, I see I thought you said Andrew ? No, Andrew a one brother's Andrew, the other one's Colin and they're the partners in the firm Yeah. so it's yeah. And you don't what, they're surnames Mac something. Well I don't know. But anyway, this girl no, they're surname isn't anything, even similar to that! No. Because they're name is! Yeah,. Oh it might be Michael and Andrew Co , then. There you are! It's something like that, it's . The ma , the name MAC, yeah! Yeah, Michael is it's it isn't! Because when he told me their name was I thought of a girl I used to know called Louise , but it isn't her No. but apparently she was you know really goo , you know like the Ah, they had the money to buy they had every they could afford They were loaded! anything! Basically, like but she was must of been such and such champion, I mean I didn't appreciate probably how good she was, sort of thing because I'm not in their show circuit but probably she was the you know, one of the top The highest one. Yeah. of her particular area. But, I mean, even if erm she was saying about going down to Olympia and stuff, weren't she, or somewhere? Yeah. The, that horse was British So she must of been good. champion, whatever this bloody horse was it was something Yeah. stylish! British She had champion at, whatever it was at. Where did they live, in Southport or Yeah. outside or Yeah , it was erm you didn't have to go that far out but they ha they owned a bit of land and stuff Yeah. didn't they? It was like all houses see there's a main road Yeah . Actually you went through er King's roundabout or I don't know whether you went No. up towards er Banks you know we u er I don't think I ever saw erm, yeah I didn't though. all up there and past the village restaurant where Yeah where we went Ah, yeah! for Mm. Sunday Lunch, but it's closed down. Oh yes! You went down there and through Banks and then turn Yeah. to the right, I don't quite know where. Mm. Not quite clear there. But er , it was nice, the horses were lovely! Oh, were they? Cos I didn't really know what to expect when he said oh No. she's got horses Mm. I thought they were just gonna be a load of . Ah, but where this house were along the road Yes. like yo yo your houses and the Oh, I see what you said. bloody gardens but all, the back of there, they owned everything! All the land didn't they? You know there might ha , there might have been three hundred ya , three hundred yards of houses semis and detached and they had a bit of land, but all the back of that, that was theirs! Yeah! I see. You know, it was all fenced they hadn't lived there long had they? No. And it was all new fences and it had all been it had been . A newly built house as well you mean? No it was old. Oh I see, yeah! It wasn't at first, That house, it was a typical horsy place,rammy kitchen and loads of dogs jumping up at you. Oh I see. Aye, but in that lounge, when I when I went that lounge it was, they were the sort of people that bloody don't open the curtains! They'll save the blo , I presume save the bloody sun you know, fading the carpet or the curtains. Yeah. Cos the carpet must have been worth a bloody fortune anyway! All the furniture in there was all you know, really smart stuff! Yeah. Well was it antiques or something cos I didn't come in ? Well I suppose it was antique, it was awful! Well you know what a horses bloody person's kitchen is like? hard wood, oh it was really smelly! They're always the same. And it had a they had a stuffed fox. Well I No,. Stuffed fox. Oh Aye! Tosh's dad shot it. Well I mean And he'd been out shooting, but Tosh had give it to this feller Oh no! and this feller taxidermist. And I thought Well I suppose maybe they're not all the Yeah. same, but they're the type, and you walk in and the the seriously though , you ca you couldn't see where it had been shot. dogs fast asleep in the blanket that's just I had a look round it, oh it's this pricked with hair he was there really ! and it's just, I've seen it so often Yeah. I just not gonna do with it ! Erm Oh but I dunno I was like a little rigid bloody board thing! so she's finished riding Yeah. Oh this was really nice, it was only and a young fox. the girl? Must have been about twenty one. Oh it was really nice! And they had another one career or anything? that was er it had been done I don't know. all like oh like, twenty years ago Thought perhaps she did some work whatever . and the difference it was Mm. the new one, it was like But er, you know like Tosh hadn't, it was there it was he hadn't said that so, when they asked looked nice, but the other one it was all snarled and everything! and the mum was saying things and that The person who'd done the old one she goes, oh yeah! Oh I hate it, when you have to ask in my eyes like, was more professional than the one that had done the new one! Yeah! Cos it was all all this Oh it was a ! Yeah. you know,and that sort of thing. We well you should I said! Oh I am sorry! It was all smell and I don't know what it was! It was worth going into. To look at you could just imagine that, you know, going for something looking like that. You know, I mean, we just called upon them, I suppose Yeah! she wanted to think that oh, this is this, this is that. Yeah. But inside it was just Whether they were posh or not. killing me in! No, she's a very down to earth. But she was saying this that and the other but I just felt like saying oh, listen I know more than you anyway! Yeah. for a few months Oh she was the big I am wasn't she? . She was, the big I am aye. No? Don't use What? the baby boy's running there. No erm Is is this month or she says twenty third by her dates, but the hospital said twenty ninth or something. Oh There's a bit God well! Time . I had a dream didn't I? I told you, I had a dream about er Yeah , what was it again? dreaming about the baby Ah! in the week What did she have? It was a little A little boy. it was a little lad, I dreamt it was a little lad And I think she is gonna have a boy. She'll have a boy , yeah she said and er she'll have one. we were going we were going the house It's usually the opposite. No, I sa No. I said Oh no! that they're gonna have a little lad. no,i i if it's her that dreamt it. Yeah. Yeah. That's definite. Oh well you're probably right. and we were going their house, but it wasn't Judith's, it was Rob's mum and dad's down Road and er we went in and you didn't know anything about it, and I walked in a Rob said she's had it! I said what is it? It's a little lad and I I looked through a window, I could see Judith holding this baby but you had to walk round to get to her and I knew before you'd got there and you were all over the moon about this little baby and everything Ah! and i it was all, you know But it could talk didn't you say? It was only tiny but it bloody talk! Oh! God! bloody talk! Aye! Aye, I'll tell you what bloody wouldn't surprise me! Oh! wasn't sure that I think they'll have to tell her that sometime! Er, Kelly don't go . Kelly can. Kelly isn't, her name isn't Oh yeah! Kelly. What a what's his name? Well Hugh. Hugh. Garry and Shaun Remember Shaun? forget about Garry Oh aye! with Shaun he's gone now! And I don't know what Gone with the wind! But er, no she will have a lad. Well she said herself she's expecting a lad though isn't she? Oh that's right, No, she hasn't been told by the hospital. Oh no, she's doesn't want to know No, she hasn't been told but she, she's thinks it's gonna be a lad. They offered to tell You mean her or not. You mean to say er i , they'd only lived in Bournemouth don't you? Oh aye! That was . Urgh! They always . I don't feel at all like that! Mm. Glenn's gonna take her baby round with her Well maybe they don't want him round. when she's goes to do hair and that? I don't know! I bet she will. Unless it's the likes of you, but in the day time Mm. she might take the baby if he's good. Well I suppose she'd get away with it wouldn't she? Mm. God , I'd take her! Well if he was sleeping you could leave him the car. Better than shoving him in a creche innit? Course it is! She wouldn't do that I'm sure! I don't know whether she makes that much money It's, it's too bloody much! They sent her a lovely Exactly! di di It's that, yeah I was a bit annoyed I forgot I hadn't put your name on. the hairdressers. Well she stopped us going up that lane in the car, by I didn't know her surname. Mr Tots whether she'd just had the baby, I don't know her surname. I go , I had the lovely calligraphy pen and I put to Mr and Mrs, cos I always speak to Kevin, I know him Yeah! and I've met him in the pub. I haven't a clue what her name was! to Mr and Mrs K so, I had to put a note You do! sorry I can't remember your surname and put to Glenys, on the si , I think it's . Yeah. I think it's something common, but I co , yeah. couldn't remember if it was,, or ? I didn't ever know it. Here, I'll tell you what else, just saying , David and Angela's brother? yeah, has moved to Chester Yeah , you said, you said he came in. but the other day I dreamt about Angela Ah! did you know the ? Have you told her about it or not? No , I've I I did think at one time whether to pass a note, bye! Whether to the pass Bye! through him to her Yeah. but erm unless she had said something, he never came back and said oh Angela says hello, if she had of done Oh,yeah! I might have you know, like I Yeah. knew it was her birthday on Halloween cos it always stuck in my mind Ha oh, was it? and I thought, shall I send a card, and I thought no, cos that many years have gone by That's it. so I've never done anything, but he's moved and he's been back and seen us. Yeah. He came in for a chat the other day and said, oh how you getting on? Anyway, my my dream was, I walked into the photocopying room in work and who should be there, and you'll remember the other girl as well Angela getting paper out of the cupboard, and Elizabeth Ooh, Lord! from . Yeah. now I haven't seen either of them since school Ee! and er Elizabeth, I just can't imagine that she's altered at all No. but, but she may have done. Mm. And er, I was just talking to her and that's all I can remember. But, you know Amazing isn't it? when you think what you dream of, good God! Bev's got this book of dre , mystic book of dreams or something it's called Who ? I have in work Oh! and it's the biggest load of rubbish you've ever seen but Somebody must of spent hours thinking Yeah. of all them! Oh, they have! Yeah! You know, and there's every Yeah. it's all in alphabetical order, all different objects or whatever. They say , yeah. Well some people really need them! So like, we have a hell of a good laugh like, we go in and like, my dreams don't usually dawn on me till around lunch, I always say quick, give us the book! I dreamt about a black cat, a black cat left the room ! Oh! And it says, oh you are gonna do such Well have you really or have just made it up? You brought the book home! I did dream about some kittens the other night, there was Oh yeah? three white ones and a black one. That was after that white cat adopting you, I told you that's what it was! He was there today wasn't he? Yeah. No, he's gone. I cannot Do you feed it? With most of my Ah. dreams most of What with? time well he had some fat of ham Just bits and pieces. that I didn't I brought the rest for Laddy. Yeah. Erm Peanuts ! Ooh, he was funny though, he was coming like that, and he's dying for a stroke Well that dog in the Raven was eating peanuts off Barbara, the mother Marsha the other week! Doing tricks ! He's a bloody that idiot! Yeah, and then Erm yeah, it's, it like it wants to be friendly It's really timid isn't it? but I don't think they pay attention to it across there Ah! it's not used to people! It's friendly towards you because you've fed it in the day It doesn't look neglected Yeah. Oh no! oh no! until you took your time. And then it was rolling over and doing all sorts weren't it? Oh, it was doing tricks and it was so Ah! funny! Do you think it's young? Yes. I don't think it's very old. I think it might even be that kitten I think it's about two. you know? No. They were they had a a board in of white kitten, free to good home. Oh! Erm When was that? I think it's the mother of whatever that was. Do you? It was in last year or something. Oh yeah. Erm, but Mike thinks it may be that kitten. Oh it co could be I think it's But it's only about eighteen months or two isn't it? Oh it's And it was sort of comical honestly! rolling over to be tickled but before you could tickle it, it was flipping right over and then jumping up wasn't it? And will it let you tickle it oh or not? Yeah. Yeah, you can stroke it but it's, awful thing is tickle when it's lies over Oh aye! yeah,. But you have to be really slow. But it had all it's side Yeah, they don't like you touching , would it ever claw you if you well it's the other side has all been shaved off! went at it No. sudden? No. I don't think so. It just run off. All it's side had been shaved as if it had been an o had an operation. It has had an operation you know. I know, you can see the You can see the mark. Oh! So I don't know whether it's a ca , a a she cat and it's been spayed. Yeah. the mark off the leg, you know where Like on it they do but on it's top and that On it's back leg. Yeah. And I said to him there's no scare but it's Looking at it, yeah you can see it. but the fur hasn't grown back, The fur's starting to grow a little bit it looks so ridiculous! Mm, yeah. which mark innit? Cos is the rest of it like floppy or Yeah,we no well not floppy, it's about that long Mm. isn't it? Oh , yeah. But er, I was giving this er I'd been giving it a stroke, and er it's sort of dying to be fussed, but I don't think they give it any attention across there. No , so it's not quite sure. so , no. But er, I sa so I said ooh, give it some of this fat off the ham and er it was getting it and then instead of eating it Run away. he were running by the shed to eat it! Aye! Like, as if it was fri , you know, like I would think to myself, if I didn't know that, I don't think they would mistreat it. No. But you think it had had a good kicking or something, wouldn't you? Yeah! The way it's , but it's probably just not used to them. So then, I'd have another piece and he'd trot off and he'd run again by the shed ! Ooh! And the other morning Ooh that's funny! oh, was it a morning? No, I was in. Was it in the evening? It were a weekend! I think is was before He were on the shed roof? we come to mum's. Mm. And er, it was on the shed roof, on the apex like that and it just had it's front paws over like that so I quick, got the camera and through the back bedroom window erm, took a picture of it on the shed roof like that, it was just looking! Oh,like Chas. But tonight before, well on Saturday before we came up like he'd been back and to this after , well this morning really and I, he'd disappeared hadn't he? And I heard the bathroom window open and I went in there, I was just having a look, admiring my little shed roof there! I nearly took a picture of him! You weren't looking for the cat, you were looking No I wasn't! Anyway,, the old shed looks well there er, I dunno why I started to look out and the cat was on his back legs with his feet like that and he was looking up at me like that! Ah! So I thought I'd, so I thought oh I better shut the bloody window, cos if he gets through it, you know, he be, get into it! Oh yeah! Sweet as a nut! This is the , it's only the I've only fed it today er He has been a couple of times. But it's been back loads o Yeah. It's been a lot when you've been to Nora's Yeah, but once you start! you know. To Nora's? When, he's gone to Nora's, I've seen it. Oh! But if I'd have fed it the first time I'd have understood it, but I've only fed it today! Mm. Yeah. And it's already been Mm. a lot of times. He might Yeah. be a bit hungry anyway,mighten he? Yeah. Or she. Yeah. today never noticed that before! Haven't you I Oh, I see! noticed that before. We have . Oh, I'm just going to pay a call anyway before I leave it to the very last. If living is without you . You never found that music, we've got a lovely song out of Willy Wonka Oh no, you know when you were playing tonight And don't you laugh! It's that what reminded you it was a cro , I tell you what, we were playing something tonight, I think it was the last thing before you stopped, and I kept thinking any minute now it's gonna be Somewhere Over the Rainbow Yeah, No, a Simple Girl. Is it? No It would have been if I'd have carried on. Yeah, and I kept thinking ooh What was that one that's nice! And then I was this music's gonna come down Close to Me, when you played Close to Me. Close to You. Close to You. See I was right. And er, I heard you do er Killing Me Softly With his Song, which I Oh yeah. love anyway! But then it was this I thought any minute it's gonna be Somewhere over the Rainbow . Ee! But it wasn't, and then you kept sort of going into something else. But, this one, that's close to me or whatever mum's saying there remi , was reminding me of that Der der der Oh yeah. der der der Oh yeah I love that . der der der na na na na na Mm. na na na . And you seeing what you're playing tonight, I thought I can't, but I heard the first thing der der der , but then it goes der der der I can't . der der, der der da . But it didn't a , God, my dad's got the music to the one out of Willy Wonka! Yeah. It doesn't half sound like it you know! Yeah, it does. I nearly run downstairs and then it went into something else and mum said well, keep listening she said and erm it go it goes a bit faster doesn't it, the next er er and a couple of bits after. Mm de de de de de da da da da da da da da da da Da dee dum de dum de dum de dum da da . And then I keep, what does that sound like then? Da da da da da da da da on of those Donny Osmond's or something? Ah, yes I know that, yeah it sounds like da da da da No it sounds like stri No it sounds like one you won't have heard of on that, the big old LP's that me and Nicola, Nicola for a birthday, that erm, school love he used to be er, oh I dunno what was his name ? Probably Leo Sayer. School love school love, da da da da da da da da da . But er, oh we should try and get that, I love it I do! And I tell you what, what else was I wanting to say? And I didn't think you had the mu you had the music but not the words. Think it was to all of Over the Rainbow. Dad agrees that that der der der da da da da da . Mm. That does sound like that Willy Wonka Yeah. the start of it. Did you think you had the music for it or something but No. you say, oh you never did? An and you don't the tune to play, no? Er no no! Yeah! Right You've had a go haven't you? It's just that Yeah, you have. like I haven't got any more words I think. No. I thought you have tried to play Never even had a go to play. Willy Wonka? No. No? I I it's one of the tunes, you know it when it's on, you know Yeah. Yeah and it's to try and er you do need to go to the video shop or something and see who play, who does it. Oh you have to ring up ask for bloody Willy Wonka! I will! you ring up er Oh yes that number! that num , you can ring that or whatever library in Birmingham. They're forever , tell him about it. What's that? That library you can get You ring them and tell them a tune to them. She was going Ah yeah! promotion when she called. Oh. That was in er ? This week has been about the library. Oh God! That Phillip he was in there. can you just watch for that lovey cos you're talking. Yeah, I heard of the name. Phillip ? Yeah,! What are you doing bringing cups in now? Probably wants er . I know she wants . I don't want you put those trousers away on the washing . What these? The other day, they're dirty, they hadn't been washed they're dirty when you look at them in daylight. See if she wants to take them to Ooh I don't know . You'll have a lot, aye? Aye? I don't know! You don't know what? Whether they want wa washing or You'll have no choice if I'm saying they're dirty, I shall inspect them in daylight so They don't look dirty now. No they don't, and that's why What? These trousers. No! These are good for another twelve Shut up Mike! months! Don't make him worse than what he is ! No, I expect it's that it's in the paper. Oh yeah I noticed Mm. that! The one with the . Oh aye! Who used to miserable when she got . Used to live down the road and I Oh! First time Bye! ! See you lad! Bye! Do you have to keep ? Yes, it raining. mm mm mm mm mm mm world of full imagination . It's got warmer with it. What's ? the dreams . Better than this? Yeah. Oh yes! Oh we're going some, well Oh yeah. I know. You know there's something else. when we get over, lads. What made you say do you think it's better than this? She was. I've opened it! Good God, she was only fourteen she had a deeper voice than . delayed. It's gonna be one o'clock I expect when she gets in. She's going to work tomorrow. Is she? Yeah. Aye Mm. She'll be shattered. Aye. Paul been? Yes he was here at soon after nine. Good god. What the hell's wrong with him? Well he'd got up and then . He put a shower in yesterday, that Piers. He hasn't When's he going back? I don't know. And he took the front piece out of that magazine. He said can I take this? And said what is it? It was erm photo of some curtains, he said they exactly the same as Joanna got up for the lounge. And there was a coupon in, he sent off for fifteen pound off. It'll be too bloody late now. He didn't take much like,if you want any like Oh. it's in there. Look at that. Oh god look at them Oh bless them. Have you seen them? Ah look! Yeah. look. We've got a cat comes to our house, a white one. Pure white like that. Comes Yeah? from next door isn't he? Mm. Lovely he is. Is that one of them what ? No No it's a different one. he's alright he you can stroke him but you have to go slow towards him. He's alright, he was rolling over on the floor yesterday with me wasn't he? Mm. Oh. Well I wasn't rolling on the floor, the cat was. The cat, aye. Well see a black one still that we've coming Mhm to the door, he'll not let you touch him. Where was that ambulance going yesterday? He turned down here. Aye, well er We was we was outside our house and I seen it turning along there somewhere. well w we were wait we were waiting to cross the road and er it went up here. So I thought where the hell's it going . So when we come up the lane it was on the top here and er Sally's dad was with it and then er the engine was still going so this girl, well erm one of them wenches Mm she lives in Barnside, she was coming up behind me and her husband and kids and I It's not her bloody husband. No. Isn't it? So I said to her er what's happened here? Ooh she said it's Mrs 's fell. Who's Mrs ? She lives erm upstairs down there. Oh aye. She's had two falls. And she fell on the Well it come with them bloody blue lights going Mm through flashing like hell. You could, you could hear him coming for miles. for miles aye. And all the traffic got on the side for it to go. And er, anyroad somebody brought her daughter, whether Sally's husband had rung her daughter to come. Somebody in a blue car brought her and there were two ginger headed girls. Ah Well her daughter's only got a son. So I don't know what happened . Mrs eh? Was she? No. She never, she n never has And er well she fell down the road not long ago and she went into hospital. And then er Why have they taken her in now? They must have done. And I er was talking to her down the lane when Mrs Monday and I asked her how she was and she said oh I've had a few falls in the house and all. Oh dear. She's eighty six I think. She'd be better in a bloody home wouldn't she? And old hasn't come back home yet. Hasn't he? No. And we've never seen his kids. But they were playing ball, that football on the road yesterday when we went out. I said to Mrs perhaps it's one of them . He says so Mm. Don't And he seemed as if had been here when I was down the road Ooh that's a shame that you missed her, bloody hell. common interests book was shoved through the door. It's a damned good job we went because Ooh you'd have never got down the road. No I wouldn't. We went into er and we went into Carmella's. . Bought some apples. Have you seen much of Beryl lately? Eh? Do you see Aunty Beryl Beryl lately? No I haven't. When was the last time you seen her? Christmas was last. Was it? Mm. And I've never She must be heard from Gladys and Fred No? for months! It's er Christmas I seen Fred, I haven't se er well, I know I'm not gonna get on the phone to her, you know what it's like with Gladys. Mm, can't get off once you're on can you? I know she might be bad, we don't know. Fred Lost her bloody voice again perhaps. Aye. I sometimes think I It's queer that It's queer like Well if you rung you could always say oh I'll have to go cos somebody at the door if she starts going on a bit long. Aye. Say ooh there's somebody at the door, have to go. That's the best. Well I can't at night. Well of course you can. Well she might think oh you don't go to the door at night. Well say our Michael was in. Well if you didn't ring tonight and rung tomorrow and rung early on-ish and you'll have to say Oh aye but ooh our Michael, ooh, ooh there's somebody at the door, I'll have to go. Aye about sixish. After, soon after six cos it's cheaper then innit? Yeah. Yeah. And you could have ten minutes on the phone and say ooh I'll have to go, there's somebody at the door. Aye. And then that's it then innit? say ooh I just seen Michael passing, I'll have to The ball's in her court then. Tosh and Les have just been on the phone to us up there haven't they? Ah. Have they? Yeah. They're coming at Easter. Oh aye. James has been er talking down the footie yeah, yeah talking a load of bloody rubbish but he'll start speaking all of a sudden won't he? Yeah. It must be rheumatic this in here ooh god it hurts. Have to rub it cos Mm. Oh dear Did you watch Beadle before? said they'd been recording things for her wanting to see what she does see when she's old. Oh Probably have all the bloody soaps taped and everything. Neighbours and Coronation Street. Oh I don't know about Neighbours, I know Coronation Street and oh I don't know I don't know what it were . Oh she said we've cleaned the house from top to bottom. Everything's lovely by she comes home. And you know she said that er I was telling you about? Aye I said, so she said the landlord's never put it down so we thought he'd have had it down by she come home cos Alison seen it and where they work and th and there's a room there or something and she'd asked the boss could she have it for the bathroom . Mm. And he said yes, take it home . But she's round here er Friday night. Mm. She's been round here a few times since her husband been away asking how I am. They've got a crow in that cage there look. Have they? There were a lot of crows when we went for a walk before flying round. Mm. Ooh and the seagulls. They must go to that sewerage isn't it? Aye. Coming back tonight there was hundreds of them! In droves they come in or a bunch and then another bunch comes and about er quarter to five and it's every night. They must go at the break of day, you know? Mm. Mm. Looking for turds. Well there's nothing else No. I went to the tip yesterday Oh aye. to the skips and in a fortnight they shut. They're shutting the skips down and then anything that you take then you have to take straight to the tip. And they're gonna charge you for going there even if you've got like household stuff in the car, they're gonna charge you for tipping. I said to the bloke I'll not bloody pay. He said well I've lost me job through it he said. Cos he looks after the s the skips Mm. and then he can have what they have to put price in and then they, they have the scrap out of them see and all the rest of it. So I've lost me bloody job because of it he said. And the nearest place to go to a skip then is in Queensferry. Oh. And if you just tip it outside the gates they're gonna fine you two thousand pound. Oh good god Why are they gonna have somebody watching? Well he reckons they're gonna have like security there and everything. Oh well where do you, where is it you ? Spencers., They'll find somewhere else Nowt. to dump it won't they? Yeah. Oh . Matthew's supposed to have a job there now. Where? Spencers. Spencers? They don't know what, er you play, pay your bloody poll tax and you've still gotta pay Aye! to dump your rubbish! Mm. Aye! I said I'll leave mine out for the bloody bin men before I take it down the tippy. By hell I'd put bags of bloody bricks on the front. Aye. And I'd leave the buggers there as well. If he didn't take them they could stop there. the cheeky buggers. He said it's bec all because the tipping's been privatized or something. Ha!government. Aye well if the Tory's get in again, they're going to privatize the post offices. Well they reckon they've, they've split it all ready for privatizing. Because there's like post office parcels now isn't there? And Mm. the post office counters. Like the post office down the road. And the post office letters and all the bloody rest of it, it's all been split up ready so they just privatize it. Saying how there's gonna be a lot of roads with a poll tax to pay. Not poll tax, bloody tolls. Well tolled, toll I mean. Aye. aye. It's coming to something, I hope them buggers don't get in. Did you watch the football this afternoon or that No I kung fu. Did you, didn't see kung fu no? no I didn't se I watched football and then I turned in the interval I t turned it on to and er And the Antiques Roadshow. Yeah. See that teapot of a monkey? Aye. Oh it was horrible! Ugly bloody thing it was. Oh were in er it was terrible, I'd have chucked the bugger out before now. Wouldn't we? Mm. Wouldn't have that bugger in the house. Oh god!what do you think we've burnt at home. Makes you wonder what, were they very Oh god valuable value in them. Packed away God aye you've probably chucked away a fortune. It's too damn late to think about it now though innit? Yep. Aye that er You've Been Framed that dog in the water with that man. He c he got him off didn't he, and he sat in the thing. I didn't see that. In the seat. No. Oh. Saw the one with the duck on his back. Oh aye that was good and all. Eh aye. Ooh me shoe does it Michael? It won't go any tighter, you'll have to put more paper in it if you wanna Well just leave it like that and let it stretch so the leather stays like that. What have you done, put a spud in it? Mm? Is that the one you put a spud in? Aye. That's where she had the bloody potato at the back of the bloody thing, there, pushing it in. Oh Joanne It has stretched it hasn't it? Oh aye. You're frightened of doing stretched it altogether. You'll pull the bloody leather from under there if you tighten it any more. Aye. You see it won't tighten any more, that's it. What damn sort of contraption's that? Joanne's brought it? Well it just winds up and it pushes a wedge forward and splays them out. I got it, it's cos I think it was for a a thinner shoe mind Well it's for like a a narrower shoe, a woman's shoe, And Michael had to put a lot of paper in to pack it out. But erm Do you make a good door cos you don't make a very good window, sit back. She's coming again tomorrow to have a look at it and practice. What the one from from the hairdressers? Aye. She comes out to you now does she? Aye this is the third time. but she said . So she said she'd come again tomorrow . Have to get you ready for this wedding she said. Mm. Erm Madelade said that Peter got the nerves already . About the wedding? Mm soon be here the wedding won't it? Aye soon come now won't it? Only be about seven weeks something like that. Six or seven weeks. finish the doors I think for the Eh? He's varnishing isn't he, the doors? I dunno. Oh he's staining them. Aye. He should have left the bloody things off because they're gonna have to take them off if they have their carpets down and might have to have something planed off them or something mightn't they? left them up, left them up or something I don't He said on the night he'll have to come again and have a look at it. Mm it looks well now. But he was having today as well weren't he, his back door? Eh? He was having his back door put on today weren't he? Why hadn't he got ? Well he had an old one on, he bought a new one on Friday. Oh did he? An old stained one or something. That's like Barbara and Graham's. Big Victorian stained door type Oh it'll be all nice when he's finished. Oh it looks well there now. Got a nice bit of ground don't they? Mm. So er perhaps he'll wait till he gets the carpets down. Mm. Cos he hasn't erm had the switched on yet. Well he's had the fire plumbed in but the gas isn't on. Oh I don't know I d well that's what he was gonna do, that's what Les was gonna do, put the fire in. It's only a matter of connecting the bloody pipe up. Aye. He's had an electric bill hasn't he for god knows how much. And he hasn't bloody used any. No. Fifty pound I think. Mm something like that, or eighty pound was it? Mm. I said what you gonna do? I said you wanna send the bugger back, he said don't worry I have done. Aye another They try it on all ways don't they? Be having another now cos he read them the other day. Well that's the one, he's had one. Oh that's the one. Oh god well I expect we'll have ours in the morning. Aye ours will be, if you have yours in the morning ours will be here tomorrow or Tuesday Mm. I expect. Shouldn't be that much. You have yours estimated though don't you? Did you see that Stars in Their Eyes last night? That Lesley Crowther with them people singing. Aye. That young girl was good weren't she? Aye she was good. Mm. But didn't he make her different? Aye. hair different Mm. Eh I But she s Marty's got a tape of the woman that actually sung that anyroad who she bloody sounds like her. Mm. She was good. Oh aye she was good. Got little pieces on them haven't they, them ? Yes. the dog . Dopey little bugger that one eh? Ah no! He's lovely. Horrible little bugger. shed will be nice and dry now, there'll be no water leaking in Ah. No. Oh well that's better. I'll have to get some wood preserver or creosote and Mm. I'll do all the fences before Aye. Well it's too bloody late now, all the rain will have stopped by I finish messing about I expect. I but It's made the difference though putting that other stuff on it. I did it with some stuff before Oh did you? and er I was watching it when it was raining the other day, you could see the rain dripping off the wood rather than soaking into it so it's done something. Oh aye. Well you can keep different things in it now than you couldn't before. Eh? Oh everything's been in the bloody thing anyway. Everything's in there anyway. It's full innit? No. He'll be ha er having it in the summer With chairs and table outside. I'm gonna get all the back tidy for the summer. I know it's not very big but No. if I get it tidy, put a bit of do all, get all the garden level and everything. Be able to, at least be able to sit out or something in the summer. Oh aye. And I'll put so bit more soil in that, you know that border thing that we've got there? Well there was all concrete and all sorts on the top of that weren't there? I know. So I've knocked it all up so I'm gonna dig it over and put, get some more soil this next week. Well where's thee gonna get thee soil from? Well I don't know . I don't wanna pay for the bugger. I'll see Johnny , see if he's got anything. Mm. but he might. Well I'll leave ca I don't wanna do them till the summer, it will be too bloody wet now. It's wet as down there. Went down for a walk today didn't we? It was slippery as hell down the fields. Oh aye . Did your mum and dad go along? Mm. What, for a walk? Mm. Mm. It was nice aye. dog's not so bad walk like. Oh aye he's alright . He was this morning. We was we give him an aspirin he was alright. Oh aye. We took a couple of photos of him again today. So if, he's got a fortnight Whereby is it? Right in the middle duck. He's got a fortnight before it's gotta go in anyway Aye. so we'll have this film developed It's in there. On that page. There. We'll get it developed and we've Oh aye we've got things on him as well so we find the best. Well take it home with you Martine then. Yeah he was comical wasn't he, tonight? He had his bloody he had his cushion and he had his bloody, you know that one how we got him with his head on his cushion like that? He was lying with his head on his cushion, eh god almighty. Twelve they want. Do they? It'll be alright to have a win it again ducks, go to London weekend again. Mm. Be nice wouldn't it? Don't think there's much chance of that. Eh there'll be hundreds sent in though won't there? Oh aye. Bound to be. Cos our now she brought his Spillers. Growing erm parsley in a container . I don't understand, it says Spillers is on the look out for Britain's twelve most appealing dogs to appear on the Prime calendar nineteen ninety three . Then a bit lower down it says eight semi finalists will be selected for a final judging in April . Well I suppose they'll, you send them all in then there's eight semi finalists Aye. and then they'll just pick one out of that to go on as part of the calendar. Mm. For one of the months, I would have thought. The way, that's the way I read it anyway. Oh aye yes,a big calendar where you turn over Mm with a different dog on. Oh, so th and then Prime themselves will get the others, it's just they want one. I would have thought so. I think that's what it'll be myself. Oh right. I mean if you sent that one in with his head on his cushion er erm I don't suppose there'll be anybody else is gonna send one in like that. No. People's gonna be sending them in with with the dog Dog standing. standing there or doing Aye. whatever. Mm. But that one it, they might say oh you know, bloody hell that's That's unusual. good you know. That'd be nice to have on the calendar sort of thing. Mm. I know we, you haven't got a cat in bloody hell's chance of us going but No, there's no harm in Oh no. sending it. Good god it Our Susan will be thrilled to bits if you went again. Aye. Aye Alison said you want her to come home don't you? Well aye I said to her as long as she'll come home safe and sound it's all that matters innit? I said erm I said to Alison oh aye cos she rang up the other day and I asked her if she'd found a fella. Oh aye she said,. Aye Alison said, she said she said no she's not interested oh . We'll have to go Yeah. No I say she done modelling over there. Ooh she said they they're all foreign she said she wouldn't be able to understand talking. Shall we make a move then? Yeah. Ooh, go and watch Maigret. Aye. Ooh Aye. Knocking the place It's had some knocks that bugger, it's never come down yet. It did come down once. Do you remember I had to have erm I rang Michelle and er what do you call it's dad come out. One of the . Oh aye. He couldn't believe Oh I don't remember. come through the damn ceiling. Right Right Come on . Right. Sure you'll not, not miss the sheet tonight? Mm, take it if you want. It's in the Oh take it tomorrow, won't be washing No I know you're washing today Oh. Got stuff to dry there now. Aye. Oh doesn't matter. Right. with the weather being so bad. Yeah. Take a few days to dry, but they dry eventually. Aye well bring some tomorrow Michael. Aye we'll see how we get on. Right. Take care then. Right bolt this door after us. I will love. Okey-dokey Bye. Ta ra Norah see you tomorrow. See you. Bye. Isn't it horrible? Mm. I'm getting innit? I bet she'll bloody wait up for Susan to ring. Oh I expect so, aye. Susan won't ring. She said to her in the week when she rung she won't ring until I thought it was like midnight last night she was getting in and she wasn't gonna ring till today but it'll be tomorrow she'll ring her. Yeah. She'll wait up. Sure as eggs is eggs. As long as she doesn't bloody ring us to say oh Susan's just rung. I'll clonk her if she does. You know what she's like. Ooh it's quiet innit ? Surely is. Must be cos it's so horrible. Did you say you were working with Roy tomorrow? Well I might be, I don't know. Bloody ballbag'll probably phone me in the morning or something. I might be going to er Ellesmere Port, there's coffin stones to get up, they've got er hoist thing there so I don't know. Yeah? I might be there or I might be with Roy, I don't know. Will you be home any earlier than you have been? We might try and put all the on tomorrow and if they do they'll just work till they get them on . I don't know. I think. what I was thinking. Eh? what I was thinking then. Oh god I can't stop yawning . Pop the lock on. I can take these if you bring the grey bag. Right. Sally's off tomorrow and Tuesday as well. I think she One of the jobs we are doing is to identify what schemes they're planning that they won't need to build. That's not possible. If you need a larger one that that That's what it says. I've got a No but template. on a bridge bit Why not? It's, it's that's really linked to do we need to do the Caernarvon link if we're doing the bypass? Do they need to do the they've proposed that they to bypass erm if we're doing the Caernarvon bypass. Well can they detrunk that bit? Well it doesn't say that. Well can they detrunk that bit? responsibility not Yeah. theirs if they put the bypass in. So what came out of this, well it could be So are they looking to build a bypass first? The gut reaction this morning is we could end up with a bypass scheme at the end of it and no Caernarvon link. Oh that's no good is it? Of course it is. Cos we're still continuing designing a Caernarvon link . four percent fee . Mind you it's, it's a smaller job. What's smaller? Well if they're doing that then we s we're looking to make this a dual carriageway on the Richard principle that if it's a trunk road it's worth building a dual, a dual carriageway. If you can convince him on traffic grounds fair enough. So they're serious Course the initial thing is we get some reaction back from this, this so they're seriously looking to the trunk road network coming down bypass and then going off round the Caernarvon bypass? Or is that just That wasn't er Ray 's view. That was this other guy's view. Based on this other scheme really he said oh yes. But which,whi which other guy? This Ve Vernon whatever his name is. The are proposing this. They won't want that. They wo they won't But the the guy that's looking after the schemes Yeah. guy. He's what? He's looking after the schemes for the leisure office. Oh! Oh he wasn't from . Sorry I thought he was He was from the leisure office looking after the . Right. Got it. That's what it's, he's interest Right. Yes. Very good. Well Right. have a lovely meeting. Seminar I will yes. Er you're going on this thing at the end of the month? Meetings yes. There'd appear to be out of this office. There seems to be an awful lot of us going, yeah. I'll o I'll only be there Friday morning and Saturday. I won't be there Friday afternoon since I'm taking my son to the dentist . I do wonder if it's really w er I mean Okay. See you tomorrow. You won't. I'm in Chester all day tomorrow. Manchester all day Wednesday. L E C visit Thursday, Friday. Busy man. I'd better get me timesheet out of It's signed. Oh it's signed. Oh that's alright. We don't want bothering us do we? Er where were we? Mm? Where were we? We were drawing up plans. It looks as though we're gonna be doing some extra survey work. Mm. Ah that's what I was saying what Yeah, now detail on roundabouts. right. How much staff did we use? Can, can you The erm the Ormskirk Oh, that's a pity. track of methodology but push to get Steve today. Well I left a message with his saying Were any of these four arm rou it's a five arm roundabout isn't it? Were any of these four arm roundabouts? Yes We did that one didn't we? We need to do these Yeah that was roundabout. That was a six arm. And we did that one. Yeah that was a That's five arms isn't it? five. What other ones did we do? That one there? Hello Charlie. We did, yeah, we did the here. That was a five arm. Well these down here about fifteen or sixteen Oh yeah well th yeah the motorways were four arm. How many staff do we need to do that then? The full turn in count. Suppose, well supposing we count ins and outs and the Yeah. sample. Right. You need one t to where, where were, where we talking about now? St David. See you're gonna get some busier than others. Yes. If they were all as busy as each other you've gotta have one doing ins and one doing outs. But on quiet roads, one person can do ins and outs. I'll er I'll Yeah just get something done and I'll be back Okay. And we'll go through it. On the Queensferry bypass, on the interchange there it was five hours. It's only really a four and a half hour roundabout isn't it? Yes but one is out and Yeah. Yeah. So you can obviously that's gonna just be one person. One person could do a two way on a quiet arm but the others are gonna need one person to do ins, one person to do outs. And one person at each arm doing a sample. So you've got nine plus four Did we do a sample all day? No, just in the peak hours they're sampling. Didn't we do them off peak as well? We should have done them off peak as well shouldn't we? I don't know. I mean Jan did those. I think it was just peak hours. Er It's gonna take thirteen people isn't it? Yeah, I mean if it was peaks only I mean there's nothing to stop me doing it. Well I appreciate that. Or you use it, you put everybody on in the peaks Yeah. and then you, you You use the cutback In the off, in the off peak they rotate the staff and I'm not The thing is what you're assuming then is that the pattern in the peak hour is typical for the day as a whole. That's not right is it? Mm maybe not. Well you'll get a different pattern in the morning peak and the evening peak for a start won't you? Mhm. Mind you maybe you won't. Depends, what you're really concerned about is how does the proportion of traffic split to left and right and straight ahead isn't it? If that pattern basically stays the same then you've got, the volume, the flow will go up and down. Mm right. But if we did a full turning count how would we do that? You can't do it can you? It's not realistic. You have to do if you're doing that you have to have all the ins and outs plus a circulation flow. Yeah. And I've never done one like that. We've always you know, found a way round it. What we did before, was we did counting in flows and circulating. I think what we would do supposing we didn't, supposing we just had heavy vehicles and light vehicles? That's gonna make things a lot easier isn't it? Yeah well we, for Queensferry we just had three classes. Motorbikes, cars, light goods H G V including two three and four axle and buses for the, for the whole count, now for the samples Rob didn't even want it classified. It was just a vehicle regardless of what it was. Yeah. I suppose we could do a classified count er on the A four eight seven sort of a bit away if we wanted a proper classified count couldn't we? Yeah. Separate, on another day. Yeah. Or we could just use whatever we get at the interview side. Erm perhaps the thing to do is to look at how it varied in nineteen eighty six. Did you get that report out? Yes you did. How it varied between the two sides. There's three thousand one hundred there. Mhm. That's two way. On a twelve hour day. So assu you're talking about, well supposing that 's grown, it may be four thousand, so you're talking about two thousand tr vehicles in the interview direction over twelve hours. So you're gonna want to interview forty percent right? How many do you think you'll need? Do you think you'll need if you have t a team of four on, is that a half team or a six team? A half. A four. We did have we worked a six team but it's not as easy to work out. I'm only thinking that you've got somebody counting? Yeah. There's one person counting? Two. Two people counting. Yeah. One's on a break. Two. Sorry? Oh what are you on about now? When th there's a half team? A half team. Right yeah. If there's a half team one people, one person counting one on a break and two interviewing. And they have a break every three hours. Can one person count and cope with that sort of flow? No I'd want two people. Two people counting? Oh what are you on about now? On this this quieter roa oh right. Er yeah one person would be alright. That's the same sort of flow as we had a Birkdale Cop. Mm. Isn't it? We only had half a team there. Right. Yep that's alright then. Well my feeling on the roundabout is that we need to do, count ins and outs and do a sample. Okay. And erm I think that's the thing to do. Yeah. See the, so say if we, like you just said, we need thirteen people Mm. but there's only gonna be two days. If we've got two roundabouts there's only gonna be two days when we need that thirteen people. So when we're Two roundabouts? There's that other roundabout isn't there? You know where the horses were in the field? That was a four armed roundabout. Just down from Yeah. the station house place where we parked You'll find that erm the flows there are very low. So you think we could get away with treating that as a crossroads and have people I reckon doing that? I reckon Well we could have a person counting and not only are they counting what's coming out of their junction, but they could do left, straight on or right. Treat it as a crossroads perhaps. I reckon si yes four or six people would cover that, no problem. I think you'll find the flow is a a low it wasn't busy when we were there was it? No I mean it may be, you know you i it may be reasonably busy straight through but I would have thought even there you're probably talking about four not a lot higher than that I wouldn't have thought. No. Okay I'll take four people And erm we're going very round very slow. And the visibility was good and everything. So I'd have thought that erm you could put four or six, four or six people on that. And actually if we just counted this to through traffic wouldn't be too much Hello right. your pudding? What erm have you heard any of it?you have. What did it sound like? It's good. We both just said that it ne you'd never think that you sound right on tape. I always think I sound high pitched. sounds all like bloody what she does say. Yeah Nearly didn't recognize you there Jimbo. Me? No, sorry another Jim. Oh. Jim with a suit on. Must be going to a funeral. Or going for an interview. I've just seen yeah he must have an interview. Ooh. Oh god . You'll never guess who was in the pub yesterday. You're right. No! Mm. I'm afraid. Mm. I just heard you, heard you twang twanging your ruler. Doing. Twanging? Twanging. Did you, did anybody see that film about erm st the stolen cars? The other night, what ? Friday night. Mm no. No. What station was that on? Erm I dunno, it was one of these er documentary type things and it was just like all organized crime, they were just erm saying of all, all the things that they get up to you know,cutting using a stolen car Mhm. or a write off car and joining them and welding them Yeah. down the middle. Cos that's what happened to Brian, you know when Brian had his Orion nicked?got stopped in the cars or something? Little Sutton cars. And then, it's taking him ages to get Has he got it now though? Yeah. But er the things that they were doing were just unbelievable. Erm you know to get the chassis numbers and that. buying old say a scrapped a written off Sierra you know, picking them up cheap for about a thousand quid from the scrappy Yeah. and then getting all the the chassis numbers and that and welding them on to these stolen cars and Because what, you know, er Siobhan's dad had a, bought a Montego and I don't know how it came about but they discovered that erm it had a diff I mean it's had a Maestro engine in it and it had this that and the other. And er they had to repossess it and he was paying . And I don't know how, what's happened about it now but at the time he was still having to pay for it Mhm. even though they'd taken the car. there was a woman there that erm the police do this service thing where they'll look a car over for you, if you bought a car that you know has been er in an accident and it's been Yeah. they will have a look at it over and check it over. And there was a woman on it, she had a really nice Orion, a J reg. Anyway when they had a good look at it the front half was an Escort and the back half was an Orion, half a stolen car. You know they hadn't even matched the same bloody type of car. There's not really a lot of difference though is there between There is Well there isn't and I I said to Mike what did it look like, you know? He said it was nice. But when they're doing these welding jobs they haven't got them on those things so as they're doing it like it's all moving and Yeah. Yeah they're totally it was just a complete bodge. I if you're driving along you can throw out the balance of the car. Yeah. Well it was that erm one in Manchester, that crash you know there was three people killed in the middle of Manchester wasn't there? Oh I seem to remember something like that. Erm and the car just broke up in half and that was, that had been er welded but like the police are saying as well as soon as they sort of get wise to what they're doing and they find a way to er you know, get on to them, they devised something else. And the people doing it in these garages erm, you know like respraying and doing all the welding and everything, really he said some of the things they were doing if they did it legally they'd make a good go of it Mm. they were that good at what they were doing. Tell me was I dreaming or did I see a sketch on T V where there's a car driving round, down the road being chased by the police and the driver said to the passenger er here take this and he says what's that for and he says it's to steer the car, presses a button and the car splits It's an advert for Malcolm. the car s the car split in two. yeah. A yellow car. It's an advert for that film called Malcolm Is that what it was? about the Yeah. retarded lad that invented all these strange and he did bank robberies with a remote control car. It was an advert, it wasn't But I did see it on the T V? Oh you did. Oh that's fine. Straight after er the advert for Del-boy when he says and you know what you can do with that. Even talking about trailers now. Trainers? Talking about te television trailers. Oh, oh yeah. Not just the programmes. There was a programme on about trailers the other night as well. Have you seen the, the advert for these trainers with no laces, you just tighten the thing up. Puma Discus system. They're out on the twenty of March or something. Mm. I wonder how much they're gonna be a pair? Dunno. La laces are a thing of the past. Watch this space or something. Yeah. Something like that. I thought it was a built in egg timer or something . Obviously another time saving device. Yeah. To save you what say thirty seconds? Oh at least. Ah there's no point getting cynical is there? Not at this time of the day, no. Not on a Monday. Rest of the week. Exactly. Where did he go? I thought you were going out? I I'm finishing early but I'm not go going out. Watch you don't er swallow that the wrong way. I didn't even have anything in me mouth. Sharp intake of breath. Excuse me? For their telephone number I've just put a question mark and I've put a note here to say I was internally transferred. S sounds like I've had an operation doesn't it? I'm being internally transferred . Oh. Someone pressed the I C M button. Yeah. Oh I told you didn't I that er the fellow with the Portakabins that does work for the B B C, he had the Portakabin and then your tables are two pound each, and your chairs range from fifty pence to one pound fifty. I think the ones that are fifty pence are those blue and white striped ones off the prom at Prestatyn job lot. And er he didn't say how much the toilet was but that'll probably be separate. You know, it's a separate thing so there must be a separate price, it would cost a bloody fortune. And the visibility didn't seem very good out of them. But the smallest one, the twelve foot ones, there's only one window. The door's in the back end. Erm so I presume that was the opposite end to where the tow bar would be Mm. and then just one window in it. Maybe just down the length of one side. Or even just at the end. Yeah. No I think it was down the side I think he said. But I I think that'll be too expensive anyway. Mhm. And that's why Mr said he he'd er He'd do it, yeah. And we know where we are then with the toilet. You know, you know what you're getting don't you? Yeah. How much ? Yeah it'd be erm Jim said there would be no problem because his men have to empty their own chemical loos anyway. But the bowl coupling could be a problem. He said but we'll sort it out, don't worry love. They're all very nice people. They have got an accent this 's got one but he sounds more Lancashire than anything. And he's nowhere near. Perhaps he's just moved there. Mm. I'll have to er give her a ring to and tell them to send me the advert. Tell them to buy . Mhm. When does it go out? I don't know. Today. Is it going in The Post? No. Didn't we tell you that? To have it in er Daily Post, The Post is the morning one The Echo's the evening to have it in for one day in The Post and The Echo, how much? Dunno, about eighty quid. Three hundred and ninety six pound sixty four pence. So you said we'll have it in all week? How big was the advert? Er about a hundred words in a box. Two columns wide and erm eight centimetres down. We reckoned that was about quarter of a page. It's a lot of money isn't it? But see the reason I have to send this to Liverpool for them to put it in Mhm. cos it has to go through our advertising agents. Cos we advertise in a special format don't we? We have the dash lines round the box Mm. and we have the logo on the bottom and that. So they've had to do it so I mean she quoted me thirty six quid for this thirty six eighty four or something for the local paper. But erm you know it might be more but that's Mhm. nothing to do with me. But I mean like I didn't think it was worth putting it in The Post to start off with anyway. But if we don't get a good response to this I might stick it in for the day in The Post. Mhm. Is the secretary at dealing with it or is she gonna forward it all on to you? No I've put our address. I said that I didn't like that idea to start off with No well it because although it's only a small concern she's gonna have her own stuff to do. It's not just that it's the delay in it getting to you anyway. Yeah and plus the fact I said to Mike it's all very well saying send stuff there, she can open it she'd be no wiser whether they sound any good or not. Mm. So I said no I said, well I've put the phone number as well and I said it might as well, stuff might as well come straight here. Mhm. So I'll give her a ring later in the week or something and I'll see if they'll send me the send me the Mhm. Policing do you the drop the E, or do you leave the E in? In. Policing. Erm I'd have thought you dropped it. What shall I say cos it's it's not a very Sergeant said he would be happy to help with the policing Oh If you drop the E it looks like policing doesn't it? put it in. yeah, I think maybe you keep it in. It's not a very nice word is it? Well I'm just coming to ask you that Staffing. Yeah. Double F. Have you got the twenty five hundred plans? I haven't got any just at the moment. Er Sergeant will be Beg your pardon? Sergeant Oh yes? erm very pleased to help us. As soon as we've got the layouts he'd like to meet us and go out to site . He seems very keen to help us do this. Right what about the er recruiting and the police cover? He's So do we need to write He said on the blower I've started it. Yeah it's about two hundred and twenty four pages. Is that all? Yeah Well he is. He says he will do it himself. And I said they will require cover for their breaks he fell down on that one, he doesn't think those two days. He said oh yes, yes they could have a sandwich . He seems very Good. Excellent. Right. Mm that doesn't They're in the same any records of, we had this discussion I have er any rec any, every telephone call I make . Right But that's because Well that's right . I mean it's a case, and then you end up saying yes and you don't need to record every telephone call They're in the same drawer as the memos. They're in the bottom Well I mean she could Yeah and the alternative you know Mi Mike's made calls in the past . That's always been very important and that should be the letter so that should be on on the, on the must be a good microphone stand surely? Brilliant The purpose of the meeting is only to record conversations. Right. Let's see where we're going. Okay, just to put you in the picture where No it's alright. Go on. Yes. I've had several telephone calls well I've made them as well. The advert has gone in. I've done all enquiries about putting the advert in for the temps. Yes. It went to Liverpool on Friday and they were gonna do their best to get it done and Do we know when it goes in the er I think I told Liverpool that if it gets to erm Caernarvon to the Caernarvon office by today it will appear in this week's issue. Do we know when that comes out? No, I couldn't get that off her. Off who? Well I asked the girl and the she, we sort of sidetracked and when I come off the phone I realized that she hadn't said. I think it's What I'm thinking of is that Thursday or something like that. Presumably after that we w or on that date we'll start to get phone calls? This is true. And we need to be prepared Yep. because obviously er I mean if you're in Yeah. they can be rung through to you but p erm will need to be warned that we may get a flood of phone calls Yeah. and what they're about. And also I think it might be as well to have a pro forma. Probably you've got one. Yeah, well no we haven't so we could probably do with doing Oh that and then, you know like if I get inundated I can let Jim do some. Well that's right. I mean really it, it's erm er we, we have a form don't we we, we use when people are interviewed for something or other? Well if we put their name and address and phone number on it, I mean it's probably just as well to use a standard thing that you can xerox. Yeah. Maybe Jim and I could And when they ring up do that this avo Yeah. When they ring up we can just say oh yes, what's your ? Now look this is meant to record this, this, this is meant to record life as it is lived, English as she is spoken. You're not meant to bite your tongue like that. Right. Yeah if we You can swear in the privacy of your own home. It was your company that I didn't want to swear in front of not the tape actually yes alright No if we er do something so as they have a checklist and we can all, you know like me and Jim say, have a copy to say oh right, can we take your name and address, telephone number And if you've got a pad of them or or, or some by you you can just fill it in and let it go through. Yeah that'd be a good idea Write the name and address and phone number down and then Yeah. it's there. Okay I'll buy that. Cos you you'll almost certainly need to ring them back. Yeah. Even if it's to say erm Oh sorry! sorry we've got enough. Yeah okay. Erm and that also makes sure, if you've got it all in front of you, erm that ensures that you're getting all the information that you need rather than thinking oh hang on, what else do I need sort of thing. Right, so that's the temporary staff. Yep. So what we haven't made any progress on beyond, on that side of things is erm if we do the coding over in Caernarvon, where that will be. Yeah. Erm like I think we all sort of ruled out er I don't think it's big enough is it? Because of the size, no. Er just out of interest I did ring the other day Yeah right. Er the the room, the smallest room they have is for twenty five to thirty people Mm. which I mean even that may be too big for what we want. Erm in any case that is in use every week on a Monday and a Wednesday. So already you're only talking There was a thing about exams. Wasn't it didn't you ring them up and they said we have exams on or something? No. That must be something Something goes on in that room on a Monday and a Wednesday. Which room is that? That's the, I've got it in the file, a small conference room or something like that, or the committee room or something it's called. Cos there is a room called the navigation room. No that wasn't an that wasn't an option. There was this one for twenty five to thirty people and then there was another one for say forty or fifty and then it zoomed up to like a hundred. And even if we were to use this Oh I know now, yes. small room, you couldn't leave anything on the walls so it would all be a come down at night, back up in the morning What erm er did you look in the file and see what they hired last time? Erm no. Cos it may I mean I've probably seen it Yeah. but I can't remember. Cos probably it will say what room it was. Yeah it was this small, I It may well have been ano think it was this I thought it was the small Oh it was that one was it? Well you're talking now Anyway Do you want me to get it? Er have you got it on your desk? Yes. Oh right How many days are we talking about anyway?coding data. Couple of weeks I suppose. Right. No wait a minute, three sites you're talking about a week and a half or something aren't we? Yeah. Fortnight at the most. Yeah. Cos you've got to allow for like they might not have done it before. Erm but you're talking fifty eight pound a day Mm. for that small room which I think's a bit steep personally. Let me take a look. It's er It's possible that you did get on the the It crossed my mind. There's The Oak's room. Can't The Oak's room up to a hundred and twenty. Four pound per hour. Sixteen pound a day. And what are you saying it is now? Fifty eight pound a day. That's an awful lot more isn't it? Yeah. There's I mean so many of them have caught on. Jan for example, when we had the the town hall thing, that was five pound a day. Yeah. It's twenty five pound a day now. I think they've just all jumped on the bandwagon. They don't provide anything really do they? Well no, that's it. So as soon as she said that it was in use Monday Wednesday I sort of If we went to subconsciously ruled it out. village hall, church hall Yeah ? which is a church hall, they don't have a charge, you have to make a contribution. Where's this sorry? Well you, you need to, it's pretty grotty, it's a grim place Mm. but it's er it's the church the parish hall in . Whether they've got tables and stuff like that I'm not sure. Mm. If you ring Roger Yeah and ask him. He did investigate having a public enquiry there last year. And erm so he will have a phone number of the vicar and so on. Mm okay. Okay. I mean in a w well I can't, did we, I wonder if we recharge this to the Welsh Office or not? We probably do. Probably doesn't matter does it? No I would have thought The other thing might be to ring up Borough Council cos they've got offices in Caernarvon. Suppose that that place they might, there might be a er a parish hall there or something That pub would be alright wouldn't it? Yeah. Okay, or That would be twenty five pound a day as well, or fifty pound a day as well . Anyway it's a thought. I mean if we have to er obviously what you're saying with it's already in use and we can't have it? Yeah. It's not erm it's no good just saying oh we can have three days out of the week anyway. No. You know, it's gotta be Monday to Friday or none at all hasn't it? Mm. Well if it was four days it would be alright but Mm. anyway Okay so they're a few options to try as regards the coding Alright and if we can't find anyway where we'll have to out and come back here. Yeah. problem as well. I think we, we should find somewhere. Yeah. Really. Erm so that's a few options as regards the coding. Now Right The interviewing and the briefing session I think we'll probably get away with in Debbie 's Yeah we're not going to, I mean we're only going to we're, we're Well it's not a sort of formal interview we'll only be briefing the interview staff That's right. and accounts staff. Yeah. So we're only talking about half a dozen Well I think it's slightly more. Well eight or ten or something isn't it? Yeah. Thanks. Thanks . Yeah you're talking about a dozen people, something like that aren't you? I mean for that er Well if necessary we can bring them into here. Yeah. Half a dozen and half a dozen Yeah. That's, I can't see that being a problem, that should be okay . Have you briefed before? Yeah. Well Mike comes out. Mike shows his face doesn't he? Well he did for the Wigan one. I did it for the erm Ormskirk one Yeah. That was okay wasn't it? We did that in two shifts didn't we? Two days. Yeah. Two mornings. We had a hell of a lot of staff though didn't we? That was a, we did that in the conference room downstairs. Mm. Erm right. What w w And anyway we now, we've, we've also got to progress on site layout and things haven't we? Yes. And get in er the cones and signs. Yeah I've had er we, we, you've got we've got to wait till tomorrow haven't we? That's right, yeah. Yeah. Now as regards signs I've spoke to numerous, oh school holidays I've got erm when the schools are off. Right. I spoke to the Education Department on Friday. Erm as regards a caravan I spoke to this bloke Frank No he's gone bust. Well he hasn't gone bust but they don't hire them any more Oh right. but I did try him. Er no Gwyllam at Gwyneth County Council Gwyllam oh no I'm thinking of Peter . erm he didn't think they had any bilingual signs and they didn't have they weren't using their Portakabins so they scrapped them all last year sold them off. Mm. But he did give me somebody to ring about caravans Mm. but then later on in the day he rung back and said he had found some bilingual signs but all he's got were about four foot square er with census point ahead. He hasn't got things like stop census. Stop if required or slow census point which is the ones we use. It might be worth asking erm Mel Yeah. about that. You see for a start we need to decide to we need it. Do we need them Bilingual? bilingual? They can't have been bilingual last time because they were hired from Staffordshire County Council. No. And the other thing er if they they just haven't got anything like that. Yeah. They use sort of blank Wasn't there a big fuss though because there wasn't enough effort made on the bilingual side the last survey we did? I don't think so was there? There's a letter in the file Well that's about erm why we didn't use bilingual staff for one of the particular dates. Erm it come from the county surveyor, apparently he'd had complaints. But I mean it was purely a re a recruiting problem. Er you know erm the letter, the reply went back from Dave saying that every you know, possible thing was done to get bilingual staff but at the end of the day you know they couldn't come up with the goods. I mean the lengths they went to advertising, I hope we're gonna have more luck now. They had temping agencies, job centres, local papers the job centre only came up with about two people. So I'm touching wood that we're gonna be in a different situation. I wonder if, I wonder if erm you know if you rang up erm the county council and said you know I mean er y just make use of a contact and say look, we wanna do this survey, you know, do you happen to know a any members of your family Yeah. You know? It maybe Yeah. You can very often er for instance at Cheshire very often I mean there were sort of some people's wives would like to do it. Yeah. It may be, you know? Yeah. See how the response goes with this and then Who is it you've spoken to at Gwyneth? Er Gwyllam . And where is he? Who, how did you get hold of him? Erm You rang up, did you ring up Owen ? Er no. I spoke I just rung up erm it was Highways and Transportation and Mm. I asked to speak to somebody in the Highways in the Transportation Mm. This was at Bangor and then I got another number and then I got told that they now have the direct organisation Right. so then I rung this person here and spoke to a Steven Mm. who was the head from the civi civil engineering division. Yeah. Steven put me through to this Gwyllam Right. who is in the, the depot place. Right. And that's how I got on to him. Okay. So we've not spoken to anybody on the sort of like the traffic erm counting side of things there? No. No. Okay. So this fella was, he come up, he found these signs and said, you know, didn't know if they would be, be any good. Erm but he'd given me this number, Glen about Portakabins. Er he's at . And I rung this Glen er wherever that is erm and he does have these Portakabin things. Er several measurements Is that, that's a hire company is it? Yeah, they're like they've got a big fleet of them. Erm Right. But they're Portakabins? Yeah, rather than caravans. Yeah. Now I don't think they sound very to suit our needs. Well you have to furnish them as well don't you? Well that's it. And there's all separate, two pound a table from fifty pence to one pound fifty for a chair. There's no toilet in them And you probably have to hire them by the week do you? Er minimum of four weeks. Yeah. And how do you move them around? Well they would move them round this fella himself, but it's gonna be a hell of a lot of money to get them to do that. Mm that's what I would have thought. Plus there's no toilet. Exactly. But he has a separate toilet. Well that's all gonna be extra as well. Mm. And erm So how much you talking about? For a twelve foot one Well you're talking twenty two pounds? Yeah. So you're talking about eighty eight quid? Yeah. It would be cheaper to get David . Yeah well I've spoke to David . He's quite willing to take the caravan out there. Erm and then you've got the toilet on there. You know what you're getting because we've had it before. So then I got back on to Gwyllam and said that if we provided our own caravan, would you someone there be willing to do the from site to site and he said that wouldn't be a problem. Right. But he doesn't know any details. Okay. Er you know I mean just like we don't. We don't know dates or anything yet do we? No. So I think we've developed in that direction that I can go ahead as soon as I've got some dates and book it properly with Mr . I think that's probably the best. And just let these do the transporting because this this fella honest to god he was doing me head in. Erm saying oh one left, we've got a contract with the B B C you know, isn't it. Oh and if he said it once well he said it half a dozen times trying to impress me. So let's stick to Mr . We know where we are with him. Oh right, yes well I'm quite happy with that. Right. Er so the only other thing are the automatic counters then isn't it? Mm. Yeah. And we, we've got to wait for erm Mel to be in tomorrow. Haven't we? Yeah. And we're obviously going to ask him to He, he to go ahead with it. looks after, I, I'm not sure exactly what he does, but he does sort of look after the Welsh Office's own traffic counting programme. Mm. They have a sort of programme of their own on er doing counts on roads. I mean a and most of it's done through the county councils. So we'll have certain sites that are counted and they have the, the equipment. Er when we last did the work there in nineteen eighty nine he'd, he'd provided Gwyneth with three machines which they moved round and put on different places for us. And I think they're ones that have a cartridge in. And the information's recorded on the cartridge. And they take the cartridge out and they send it down to Cardiff which is where Mel is Yeah. and he chucks it into, bungs it into his machine and then gets the printout then which he then sends to wherever. Ah. So what we, we need to go to him I think in the first instance and say we want to do X Y and Z, and if he, if he says fine you know. But if he says I'm sorry, I haven't got the equipment we then have to go outside Yeah. obviously but I think you need clearly in the first instance to use that And you're saying to also mention to me if he's got Well I, it's just a thought. I mean if we're gonna be speaking to him we may as well ask whether Yeah. just to say that we, you know, that we'll, we, we're going, we're proposing to do some origin destination surveys interviewing, and we'll need the signing to go with it that Gwyneth don't appear to have them and, and in consequence we're proposing to hire them elsewhere. Erm and erm you know, we know that last time it was done er the, the signs were not bilingual, the ones census point and so on Yeah. and that erm is he w er would, did he think that would be a problem. Yeah. Cos I think last time we hired them from Staffordshire and I'd have thought if they're going to buy some they will be very happy to hire us them. Cos presumably, when you look at the layout most of the signs are keep left signs. Yeah. Or you get the you get ones that are sort of road narrows Yeah. and you get the, the warning ones. Yeah. And the warning ones have a little census plate on. Erm so presumably you perhaps need to do something about that. But the keep left ones they're gonna have in stock aren't they? Yeah. So the only ones you really need and, and the, and the road narrows and the warning ones, they're all gonna be in stock. Yeah. So the only ones that probably need to get made are census stop if required etcetera. So there's only three of those. Yeah slow census and whatever. So presumably if, if Staffordshire have them made and we get those three whizzed up to Caernarvon you know, the rest can sort of fit into place. Cos if you put survey instead of census at the bottom, I mean I know that's not strictly speaking how it should be, but they must have signs for us to survey because they have their own, presumably they have their own surveyors go out and Yeah. Yeah like you know and you see yellow ones don't you? On the motorway and stuff Yeah. they have survey on. But they very often, that triangular one with an exclamation mark, there'll be a little Yeah plate on the bottom that says survey. yeah. Well maybe it's not really right, but, but perhaps that I'd have thought it would be alright. Yeah. Census, it's probably the same in Welsh as well you know, don't you know? Yeah, I see what you mean. We might be able to get round it. I'll see what this fella says. Well I mean I was saying to this bloke well can you think of anywhere where we might be able to, oh no no no can't think of anywhere. Well you could try Clwyd or something but can't think everybody you know. Clwyd might well do some. I wonder Oh it might be worth giving Nige a ring. He's at Cheshire. Oh yeah. Who do we know at Clwyd? Davydd . Who? Davydd . Never heard of him . He's Brian's brother is he? no. Okay so let's just go He used to work for Liverpool City I think, and he was called Dave there. Er right, just going back to the actual er roadside interview, is that one on the the B road, or is it the A? That's the one. Er I was only going to propose to use four staff on that. Have a look at the, I think that's what we've done last time. Yeah. Okay. Have a look at the erm we must have a count but yes, have you got that report? Of the Or have you given it back to me? Well no just the oh, yes it might be on that but I the early report the reports on the erm surveys which were done Did you give it back? Yes I did. Right. Okay. Okay so then Well they give us an idea of what the flow was then anyway won't it? Yes. And I think you're right. And the other thing Oh oh we've put in a making the interview forms, just having the Welsh translation on the top. I was explaining to Jim how we could do that and it looked pretty straightforward so or, or not. It's Have we got the interview forms? That we used last time? Mm. Yeah but they're like four interviews on a sheet and really sort of Yeah. But I mean who what, how w , what are w , have we got our current ones, our standard ones? Yeah. Cos presumably it would be best to use those wouldn't it? Yeah. I think you could, you could accommodate it if you just reduced that sli the, what the normal one slightly, and there's t there's room to put the er translation on the top. I'll do you a mock up of that and see what you Yes, good idea. what you think. I think either that or have it on a separate sheet. But I would have thought it's best to put it on there if we can. How many are we gonna want? Three thousand? Perhaps it's worth having a separate print run for that isn't it? Yeah, might be. It's not I think if they use this offset thing, the masters last about five hundred so you're not it's not, it's not a silly amount. Yeah. Would it take, oh wait a minute! Three thousand interviews What say, would you think three thousand interviews? I'm just trying to think what we were averaging. But I mean that one of them's not gonna you're not gonna get as many on that B road. Will we will we want those? Oh I can't remember you know what we used for Ormskirk It doesn't matter if we if we get too many cos you can always use Well that's it. Can't you? Yeah. Mm. If you see what I mean. Yeah. Well so you think actually send something through to reprographics for them to do in Liverpool? Well you don't want to be doing it on the machine down here do you? No. And if you got three thousand interviews, say a thousand at, well y you probably wouldn't, you'd probably get Probably two of those boxes would do wouldn't it? you could get nearly four thousand interviews couldn't you, altogether? Yeah. At two on a page is two thousand sheets plus however many you'd only get one on. So I'd have thought three thousand wasn't out of the way really. And like you say if there's some left they won't go to waste anyway. No. Oh on the other hand I suppose we could say well we'll use, we'll get some and if we run out we'll use English ones. If you do it that way, you know, by the time they get there they should know what the questions are shouldn't they? Yeah. Excuse me, by the time you run a Cos we hold the original to that. To the interview Well we'll need some anyway. Yeah. We've probably, I mean we, we hold the original on an A three so it might be worthwhile doing a copy of it. Doctoring it Oh I see yeah. to insert the Welsh because John will have to send the original off for Oh right. Yes . We'll have a look And then we can have the base copy of each then couldn't we? Good. I'll, I'll dig it out after. Yeah, right. Right, is there anything else? So, yeah there is. Erm things like whether I'm using my car and stuff I suppose I need to speak to Mike about? I haven't done anything about that. Right. Erm erm statutory undertakers? Bus companies Yes we'll need to write to all those and we'll need to write we need to write to the police Yeah. on in two guises don't we? Partly because we're doing a survey but partly to warn partly because of the emergency services aspect. Yeah. So we need to write to the police to er I suppose the thing to do is we write in a general way to the, the Chief Constable, North Wales police Yeah. which is I think in Colwyn Bay Yeah it is. and but when it comes to actually organising the police control of the survey sites, we, we speak to the erm traffic inspector at wherever it is. I'm not sure Right so who did you say in Colwyn Bay? What what Just write to the Chief Constable. I think we need to write three letters. One to the police, one to the ambulance, one to the fire brigade just saying we're proposing to do them. Obviously that'll have to be when we've fixed the sites Yeah. and the dates are on. Yeah we'll do this But that's normal. general letter to the police saying that we're intending to do these surveys, just putting them in the picture and put a note in that erm once, you know, dates and whatever, you know, we'll give you further details as and when we know Well I wouldn't, I don't think I'd worry about writing to them until we've got the dates. Oh okay. Oh I suppose we've gotta, oh well what did we do last time? I remember the problem was last time sending those little plans out, the Ormskirk you know? Give them the drawing number so we sent a transmittal note, course we never got a transmittal note back. It's best to avoid that. Yeah. Erm right well I think the thing to do is, on beyond that is to make sure we work through the checklist. Okay? Erm Now layouts, site layouts. Yeah maps and things. So are you leaving the ball in my court on that? On what? On the statutory undertakers. Cos I can probably get some information out of here. I think i if you want er I mean you're quite happy to draft a letter? Yeah. I mean that's a I mean again standard thing that goes to all of them we need to write them, warn yeah, and we ask them to let us know what they've got planned don't we? Yeah. So you could send them a letter with a little diagram that Yeah. I wonder how good that is, yes I think that's alright isn't it? Then they wouldn't they'd understand what we, that meant wouldn't they? Yeah but that's got specific things on . True. Yeah well all we did for Ormskirk was, it was just an O S map and we just drew a bloody great circle round it and said this is the study area. That's probably the best thing isn't it? Yeah. And blow up an O S and just well within our sites and everything But don't give it a drawing number. No. It's just attached to the letter. Yes. Now you get your, you've got your list of who you want to write to? Yeah. If you check with erm Dennis because they're doing all, you know, doing the contract documents, he could confirm all the, the current addresses. Okay. That alright? Yeah. You're sounding a bit weary . No that's alright There's no rush about this, I mean er you know, you've got well Well there is up to a point because you know how bad they are at responding. Yes there is. I mean er what I mean is it needs to be done this week sort of thing. Yes. Oh that's okay I'll get all them off . I'll do a, I'll do a draft letter this afternoon, you can have a look at it, erm we'll knock a plan up and her get the addresses and then that's it's easy then innit? Yeah. I wonder if we do want to put it in Oh sshh You've finished your mi meeting already Mike? Right, well let's, okay. Er, yes. Sorry about that. No it's alright we're only trying to work somewhere, somewhere quiet. I suddenly thought that on the advert that's gone in Yeah there's a chair here. On the advert that's gone in I did wonder whether to put please respond by such and such a date? Don't worry about it. You don't think it's necessary? If they don't respond by the date, you know do it quickly Yeah. they're not interested. Okay. That's all we did for the statutory undertakers. Dead simple. Just drew them a whacking great circle round it and Yeah, good. Okay? So something similar Excellent. Something like that yes. Yes. Erm So I'll speak to Dennis for er addresses. Is there a phone number in the ad or just an address? A phone number as well yeah. Oh right. I think most people ring. You know cos it wastes so much time. Your name ? Yeah. But we'll just have a word with Anna-Lee and if, I think you know, she'll say what's it concerning and if I'm not there well she can put them through to you. Okay. Erm so you say, are we saying that we're gonna leave the police till we've got some dates? And the Well we know when we're gonna do it don't we? Do we? Well we know it's the last week in April or something Yeah. don't we? Well we wanna know whether we were gonna try and do them all in that week? Twenty seventh of April. Monday Tuesday Thursday. I think the plan that goes to to the police thank you needs to show the i interview sites on it. You remember we had, on the Ormskirk one we did one that had a study area on it? Yeah. But we also had one that showed the individual locations. Yeah. And I think that was the one that went to the police. Right. Er and the fire brigade and, and so on. Yeah cos they'll want to know. Well that's it. Yeah. And all you're doing is warning them that they will, the things will be there and we'll make sure that if a emergency vehicle comes along erm But they will know your precise dates won't they? Well they'll want to know precise dates. I can't remember that we did actually. No I don't know whether we do give them, even the precise dates. It isn't really much use then is it, just giving them a rough ? Well it's only a warning. Well we'll have a look back in, I'll have a look back in the file and see what we did last time. Erm Do you wanna do that, have a look at what we'd said in Ormskirk Yeah. on that side of things? Yeah. I think I wrote to them if I remember rightly. Well I didn't. Erm now we need to do something about layout plans. So we need to get some if we're going to work on ordnance survey ones we'll need to sort something on that. Have to have a chat with Anyway you're not in an immediate rush to do that are you? No. The, the yeah. What have you told only you haven't told Gwyllam anything have you? Cos you, what you've told him is did you talk about chapter eight? No. No. I, I just said to him, when he said we've got these census point ahead I said well we've got certain restrictions, you know, we've certain rules and regulations we've gotta comply with I mean I didn't reel off any of this blah. But I said oh, are you familiar with setting up roadside interviews and for this type of thing? Oh yes, we've got such and such a fella out there that does nothing but that out all day long. And yet they didn't have any signs so I think he's talking through his hat. But what he probably means is that they set up signs for Yeah. you know, roadworks and stuff. Yeah. Yeah. So I mean I would have thought they've gotta comply with the same Yeah. the same sort of things. I think the thing is, actually, just thinking about it, there will be a Welsh version of this if there is one if you see what I mean? Yeah. If there isn't one then we, we er er it er oh mind you I suppose there's no hassle to them to put a Welsh thingy, anyway I'll look at that. Right, now the other thing is that what Jim's doing which is that programme, how is that coming along? Yeah. What I did was I got I went down to the print room and I got a piece of A one paper and I mean if you want to use Chris Chris over in Chester office, see if, that one would, oh mind you there isn't a chair there is there? Mind you is Jonathan away? There's this chair here. Jonathan's not here. Is Jonathan away? Yes, two day a day and a half or something, two days? Right. So, you know, there's desks around anyway Mm that you could use Okay. and erm er that's what I used if you want to borrow that you can. Thanks. And do it in pencil and just, and then we can rub it out yes. and change things and so on, yeah. Well it's easy to change isn't it? Because presumably Peter will need to incorporate that in an overall programme. When we look at the highway side. So it's just the traffic side which I'm dealing with here? Yes. Cos that's all I'm dealing with. Okay and perhaps erm perhaps you'd also like to l would you like to look at this side of things as well? Incorporate that into it? No, the, the layout plans, do, do some layout plans. Oh yeah sure. Marty's done them before you see haven't you? Yep. So I'm, I'm just trying to look at the ones for and then we'll go from there. Okay, is that alright? Yeah. Now, have I given either of you task schedules for this No. stuff? So I need to do that don't I? Er in fact I never gave telephone call it's no good telling me to do something Task schedules,ooh I'll have to get the form. Okay, so you want a task schedule for doing doing the traffic report? Mhm. Mm yeah? Yeah. And also for doing the programme. Yeah? And you want a task schedule for organizing this, it's a bit unspecific isn't it? Yeah. Okay. Erm how is that then? Er you happy to leave things as they are for the minute? Carry on on that basis? Yeah, the only other thing like when you were saying about site layouts, if there's any maps that we need, and that's including maps for coding, wall maps, you know, large scale. Well obviously we've got to progress into that. We need to prepare some zone plans and gazetteers maybe. Yeah. Erm oh well I'll er the other thing I was thinking of is that er we could be looking er towards beginning, you know even now, to doing a trips network and things like that. There's no real reason why you, say, shouldn't start to build up the data on that. Yeah. Erm y y you know you, you could do a diagram and presumably the person to speak to would be Billy or maybe Peter cos I think Peter did the bulk of the work. Okay. Beverley did a lot of the actual sort of dogsbody work, you know, the actual doing of it. Erm so you need to build up a picture of what you've got erm but there's no real reason why we shouldn't be working on that now it seems to me. Er in principle. Yes beginning, you know, we, we know what we're trying to do obviously we don't necessarily know every, every node in the network erm Cos obviously once you start doing that, or when we start doing tr the, the journey run things erm we're going to need to know what we're wanting. So there'll be two sides of it c er Well there, there won't be any will there? Erm Mm. But anyway I mean it's all part of the picture. What I'm getting at is there's no reason why we need, we should wait until after the surveys to start looking at trips. Which is what happened on Ormskirk. Mind you it was partly because we didn't get a programme. But there's no reason, and on as well. Alright? Right, so me and Jim had a chat the other day just looking at the the roadside entries and the counts and I was sort of saying if we work on the basis that we want between ten and twelve people, twelve people maximum Mm. erm I think we're be able to do all the counts with that number of people including the St David's roundabout and Mm. but we do need to clarify exactly what you want on that. Whether you want samples doing cos that's gonna take more people, or whether you're just doing ins and outs and stuff like that. Well And on the other roundabout for that matter. Are you off? Yeah I've got a seminar in Manchester . Oh right. How did it go? Fine. Probably find that traffic percent we're just talking now this, this is, this is one we're discussing. Oh well just south of Caernarvon on the first section erm between Caernarvon and ? Yes. Yeah. Gwyneth haven't really started on doing any of that work yet. work. And they need to do traffic. And also they need to confirm the traffic erm turning 099 junction at er I can never pronounce it, beginning with an L. Yeah . And er maybe count, maybe do their traffic counts out of that as well. So the guy that was in charge of those schemes with Gwyneth Yeah. was at the meeting or came into the meeting to explain about the schemes. What's his name? Erm Peter will know. Peter's got his name down. Cos that was one of the things we talked about Vernon somebody or other I think his name was. Vernon need to contact them. Yes, need to do that this week. But they, this, these, well he's got a copy now of the report and he's gonna c comment back on what Do Welsh Office want any more bits copies of that? So that's fine, good. erm and they should comment this week about what extra bits they think they could perhaps cover. So maybe a few more turning counts the census Mm. Right. And that wasn't where I well I haven't been particularly looking for work from that particular to know is they raised er the question about the er counts we're doing for the Caernarvon link Yes. which is part of this study. Yes. They want us to divorce the staff time Yeah. and charge it against the Caernarvon job. Right. The Caernarvon link job? Yeah which is to our benefit cos we get Mm. What about the work for Gwyneth? If that's extra What do we charge that to? That is bypass. They don't want us to charge it to extra to works? We could have a two point six seven multiplier No. Er er er as far as they're concerned any extra work is just an enhancement of the rate to the bypass erm rate, point six two percent. That was what pointed out. He pointed out? Any said we need approval for extra work Yeah. he said well it's just, it's time costs, it's just an extension of the Right. Except for the Caernarvon bit. Right. Are they wanting a budget figure from us? We're gonna have to put What was Paul saying about the wedding then? Only said who he invited. I said, I said have you invited Aunty Joan and them? He said oh I've invited Aunty Joan but nobody else cos I didn't fancy any of the others. And has he invited Joan to the day do and that? Yeah. But he hasn't invited any to the night . I think I might have his conscience by saying that I don't mind. Well for what they see I can understand him asking Joan and Graham erm maybe they've gotta watch how much they're I know but an extra four people's not gonna cost that much more is it? Shut up. You little sod. The cat? Yeah. Oh I'm shattered . Why I asked him is because he had a wedding invitation for Rob and Jen Yeah. Well to be honest I can understand why he's not asking them. You know they'll make up with friends you know, what family they're not asking won't they? Oh aye. No it's not as if you're all close is it? No. And I mean we haven't seen them since ours hardly have we? No Watch this fool. Ram him off the road. Oh I had a really good day today. I didn't go till about half ten ah no cos I had a few letters and stuff to write first and I thought right I'll just take me time and, cos I wanted to I didn't wanna go faster than you know than I should, I should have done sort of thing cos I wanted to time it properly. Erm it took me an hour and a quarter. And it's exactly sixty miles into the middle of Caernarvon. So I And that's where the survey's gonna be, right in the middle is it? Well no but that's where I had to go. See you can allow a few extra miles for getting Oh. to the others. So you wanna allow yourself a an hour and half really don't you? Do you think, or not? Well I don't think so because that, I mean there won't be any traffic hardly No. when I'm going so I'll just allow the same. And then I should do it in an hour. You know I'll be leaving at about half five. No, not b about quarter past five I'll be leaving, five to quarter past. That's allowing a a good hour and a quarter. But it's not gonna take me longer at that time of the morning than it has done today at eleven o'clock or so is it? Coming home it took me a bit longer cos it was all that delay at the hill. Oh aye that's right I heard it on the radio. Yeah oh it's pathetic . Oh no the rest of it, it's not too bad, it's not a bad journey, it's quite pleasant really. So I went straight to the county offices and saw the rooms you know where we're going to Yeah. be doing the coding. Dead smart. I was really into that. Can you put the stuff on the walls? Erm I'm not gonna put them on the walls. They've got you know like these big boards, free standing boards Yeah. they have. Like a pin board thing? Yeah. Gonna have some of them there's three I think and they're really long ones. Er so I'm gonna have them but she showed me the small room, what they call the small room, well that was huge well it will be perfect for what we want. Really plush, you know all the carpets Mm. and everything? Erm and then she said oh and this is the other one and it was like all er it was bigger again obviously, and all the tables in a square Like a conference type Yeah but each seat ooh excuse me each seat had a microphone built into the desk. Oh aye? But I thought that'd be more of a hindrance than a help Yeah. for what we were doing so when I got back to the office I rung and I tempor well provisionally booked this, the smallest of the two which I think will be brill. So So what did she say about the money when you tried her for less money? Or didn't you actually say? Well that one you have to ring the head office in Bangor, I had to ring her when I got back. They only er showed me the rooms, they do the bookings and I just said And it's actually in the like the council offices? Yeah. They have all like them chambers there as well you know? But I just said that it was for the Welsh Office cos I thought if er they knew it was for a Authority you know? Yeah. I said do you, do you think there'd be any discount er with it being a block booking? And she didn't say no full stop, she said oh she said I'm not sure she said, I'd have to enquire about that. So I just thought she's gonna yeah if it was out of the question she could have said oh no that's it, there's a flat rate so I Yeah. think she's gonna ask thing is with them Welshies they probably haven't tried to bloody they haven't got the sense. No. If somebody else was trying to book it, one of those Welshy types, they haven't got the sense to ask No, I said well I said that I'd appreciate it cos it's worth a go and she said oh yes I agree with you there. Which field's Min in? Not any of these. So that was good. Ooh I can't stop yawning. So then I thought oh I'll go and find er the offices again, Church Street. And we'd gone a roundabout way the last time we were there and I thought oh I'll give it a go, anyway I walked straight down this road, have a look oh yes, turn up here anyway I, I sort of got me bearings and I thought oh yes it's just down here he's in the field just down there. Is he? Do you wanna go or not or go straight to your nan's? Go straight to nan's, call on the way back. If it isn't too late. Couldn't see him. Erm so I went straight to this place and there was a fella downstairs, his secretary was erm out on her lunch. Anyway I said oh I said you're not expecting me, said who I was and where I was from. I said I called in to see either Michael or the secretary, Mirelda her name is. Mm. And er so he said alright. I said I'm also gonna be che cheeky and see if I can use your toi he said oh yes he said, go and help yourself he said there's a kettle down there, make yourself a drink, make yourself at home. So anyway I thought I won't have a drink cos if this secretary wasn't there I didn't know how long she'd be so er but I di I went upstairs to where we had the meeting with Mike the other week. And erm Joe his partner was there so I had a really good chat to him. What do you mean his partner like? Is it just like a little firm? And this Michael's one of the partners in the firm? No there's just them in the office. Oh aye. They've merged with us now. Erm so I had a chat to him. He drew me a little plan of how to get to W H Smiths and that. What the hell do you wanna go to Smiths for? Maps. So I had a walk up the town and called in Tesco's and got a bit of shopping. Got some teabags. Did you? Yeah. Is it much of a place, Caernarvon? Not really. They have a market there don't there? On a Saturday yeah. So I went to Smiths, got this map What and do a photocopy? But I don't think I'll need it. It's just a one to twenty five thousand, a Pathfinder. Cos I picked up the Chester to Wrexham one instead of the Snowdonia one. Caernarvon's on the Snowdonia map. Ah. An O S one to fifty thousand and that's what I thought I'd picked up this morning to take with me but when I looked it was Chester and Wrexham so it didn't do me much good. So I thought oh well I'll buy this other one and Claim it back off the firm? Yes. Three pound ninety something chicken butties and bag of crisps and that, it was nice. Cos I'd parked on the top of this multi-storey car park at the offices, is it called? Erm I parked on the top. So it wasn't all dark and that Mm. cos I wanted to be looking at me plans. And I ate me butty there on top. In the pouring bloody rain and howling wind I expect. It was, yeah it was horrible . So then I just had a drive round all the sites. Did you find them all alright? Yeah. I know where I'm going now with er all of them. You know and getting to them, I know how to get from one to the other without going, you know? All round the houses. I've got a good idea of where everywhere is. So I was quite pleased. Mm. When I got back ooh you know I told you about that job? We've put a bid in for Arrow Park. Mm. Rob thinks we've got it. Oh god. Winning some bloody jobs aren't you. What have they done, dropped their prices? Well Rob's doing them isn't he? Oh they have had to drop their prices. They've had to go for the we did them a few sort of quotes on the survey side of this Arrow Park and er we've gotta, you know, really stick to this tight budget because it's the only way you can get them no matter what people are telling you erm about the recession being over, people still want things for nothing. So this survey might have to be done at the beginning of April. But it's not a big one so Well when's these in Caernarvon, the end of April? Starting the twenty seventh of April. It's the weekend after 's wedding? Yeah. So I shall be enjoying myself at the wedding Mm. ready for my hard slog. Eh? You'll be knackered. I know. Er yeah so we'll have this thing at Arrow Park to do. He's hoping to do that. We'll looking into doing we need to know how many cars gone in, how many cars go out Into the ? of the hospital grounds. But there's residential sections as well. And then see how long each vehicle stayed there. There's two entra entrances You'll have to er take the registration of every bloody car! That's what we are doing. Jesus god! It's probably because they're taking over the er accident and emergency department from Clatterbrick it's shutting down and it's all going to Arrow Park. Well that's not why we're doing it. Well it is. That's what's happening, it was on the radio the other day. This is just well I mean it maybe connected with that but we're doing it because they want to increase the car parks . So we're looking to do it with tape recorders on the busiest entrance and you know and just say car D five one four R G M blah blah blah. Get them all down and then the person on the quieter entrance can just write them down. But you don't necessarily have to say the whole number. You know you can just say D five one four. Well that's what you wanna, so much quicker wouldn't it, just say the Escort D five one four. Yeah, you don't even have to say the the make. And then erm they all get punched into the, Rob's got a special computer programme thing, you punch them all in er and then it does a ma a matching thing. And it come, at the end of the day it comes out with all the ones it's matched, the duration it's been there and er makes it a damned sight easier basically. Should be quite good. Then we've got in June we're supposed to be doing journey time surveys and traffic counts on the M sixty three. I won't get off at this one, no? No. I'll get off at the Erm now they're talking of doing roadside interviews in both directions on the motorway on the slip roads. Be a big job that will. Yeah. So I hope it comes off. Loads of money , you'll be minted. Yeah. It's about time we got something, don't, you know for months we scratched round looking like we're busy, now we're meeting ourselves backwards, coming backwards. Better that way though innit? Days go Yep. But I mean I'm already starting stopping later, unintentionally you know, just cos I wanna finish something. Here I turn now do I? Yeah. Well that this is the bloody supermarket. Well where was the turning? I've never Course you do. I don't. Yes you do. Er yeah I've already got over thirty hours credit. And you're not supposed to have more than thirty even though Mike's got about a hundred and three. Mm. How the hell he's wangled it, honest to god! Well he must be fiddling it cos he, he's never bloody worked it. No. So erm and I, I can't just take a flexi-day because I'm already, I've already got leave to use. So I'm gonna see how I get on an if I keep doing it I'm just gonna get it as overtime. What are you having? Fish and chips? Are you coming in? No, I don't wanna see Jean. Oh she's there. There she is. She's doing the n Are we late? Yep. the chips . Yeah. Cooeee Cooeee She's probably asleep. Probably. Sorry! Couldn't hear you. Ooh How are you? I couldn't hear you shout. I know, I couldn't long time getting Well I was allowing you time with your leg but we thought you've got the telly on loud. Oh aye I have really, yes Have you? We've been in chinky we've brought our tea. we've brought our tea. We've been to the chippy, we haven't had any tea yet. Haven't you? So can we eat them here please ? Yeah. Right you take them in there the table. Yeah we can do, saves stinking out in here. You'd better put something on it. Yeah. Oh there's nothing to I'll not ask you in there with the table because there wasn't enough room. The what? There's a little table there, a little folding table there. Yeah? Shall we take that? Put it here? Yeah. ? Oh aye. No I'm alright there. Go on go and sit on No I'm grand. No you wanna rest your leg. Ooh don't matter about resting me r about resting me leg. I r used to . That's right. We've just been to see Jean there at the chippy. Oh have you been ? Yeah. Yeah. Is that alright there? Yeah. Now then. Where's mine? Let's get you organized. Looks like a teddy bears' picnic Want plates? No we'll have them out of the paper, we'll save on washing up, thank you. Go cut you some bread? I'm alright, I d I want a butty thank you. Michael how, how many rounds do you want? Oh just one ta. It's er who erm wholemeal. Aye, just one thanks. Only one? Yep... So they'd better be nice seeing as we've been all the way Just get me the marge out of there to . Yeah, there it is, Vitalite. Vitalite. Oh aye. Super. So how's your leg? Ooh Any easier? Ooh it comes and goes Martine, it's nearly driving me daft to be honest. Oh is it? Is it gone a bit easier? Has it gone a bit easier for you? What? What do you want? What do you want? Er just do you want one or two? One. Please. Two. Just just one. One. Yeah. I don't want one thank you. You know where the salt and vinegar is don't you? Oh aye. It's already on them thanks. There's plenty on them, they're alright. Oh there in er in the cupboard there. Is your nan okay? Do you want a few chips on a plate nan? No thanks I've only Are you sure? I've only just got just had a big dinner love. Have you? What have you had? I had a la lamb chop cabbage Ooh. roast potatoes rhubarb, stewed rhubarb, Ron's stewed rhubarb. Lovely. And cream. Nothing like looking after yourself. Oh it was very nice and it's his first rhubarb. Mm. Me mum give your mum a cou just a couple of sticks. Yeah she was only saying ours has started to come through Yeah. up at . Oh they are nice Mm. Teddy bears' picnic this nan. What love? Teddy bears' picnic. Ooh. Don't bother with a plate for that. Nan. Just a minute love. What did you say? I, he could have had that straight on the paper. Alright? Thank you. What did you say? I said there was no need to have got him a plate. Spoiling him, he doesn't have a plate at home for his bread and butter. Well y your dad likes a lot of a out of the paper, I dunno. It ta tastes nicer out of a paper. Oh they do. If I, if I'm out yes, I li I like them in a pa in a, in a paper, you know, but er I've got no cake to offer you, I can't some biscuits. No, I'll be alright after this. No ta. alright with this thanks. No? We haven't had chips for ages have we? Haven't you? No. No. Oh well if you haven't had chi or haven't done for a long time you enjoy them. I er you do. Nan you'll love why don't you go back and watch your programme and have a sit down and we won't be two ticks eating these. Your mum had a what did she have? Oh she'd been up to Pearks Mm? She bought a steak and kidney pie now then, no she didn't have chips steak and kidney pie and some er couple of iced buns, she bought me a, an ordinary pie. Oh yeah? So I had that at dinner time. Mm. Oh me mum's been here today? And she called she did ask the girl for er two er cream doughnuts Yeah? and she, she's a new girl, your mum said Hmm and she gave her iced buns. Oh! There was all sort of icing on and cream as well. But I must admit they were very nice. They were nice. Little devils. Oh. Me mum's been here today has she? Yeah, she come about half past twelve? Oh she said yesterday she might call. Half past twelve. Mm. And she went from here about er well she said she was going at quarter past two. I said it is quarter past two if you I'm not pushing you off but you've got to be somewhere on time. Yeah. have a we had a bit of a chat Good. and er she went sort of thing. Mhm. So I always take my dinner in there. Well aye, might as well have a bit of comfort. And and then I come back in here, I always get my sweet and take that back again. I watch Blockbusters Oh yes, we had ab er well while you were in the shower. and then I always stop and watch the news. So I come er come in here after and er washed up Mhm. and I'd just peeled an orange to be honest I just fancied an orange, I thought oh Here you are And I'd just that very minute sat down. Why don't you go and sit down again and we'll come in as soon as we've finished these. Oh aye. So you can rest your leg. Are you sure you don't want any biscuits only I haven't any ? No we're alright thanks. thanks. I'm fine. I'll be too full up Not I am without cake but Irene brought me some small ones yesterday Mhm. and I've only just finished our, our Christmas er bun loaf sort of thing, you know Have you? Anyhow No this is fine. Right, I'll go and finish my orange. Okay, we won't be a minute. Ooh you're gonna have a cup of tea aren't you? Well are you having one? Are you having one anyway nan? Yes, there's the water in the kettle and everything in. Well o I'll, if you put it to boil Okay. They're nicer than our chips. Do you want tea bags or loose tea? Anything. Whatever's easiest. Do you want tea Martine or lemonade or ? Erm I'll have tea please, yeah. We usually have a cuppa after don't we? Mhm. Just saying nan Pardon? I'm just saying these chips are nicer than the Bottley chips. Are they? Oh aye, we'll be coming here again. Your dad always likes them from here. Yeah. Oh they're your mum and dad now aren't they? Yeah. Got nowhere local for chips. Oh lovely, thank you. Smashing. You get a good One thirty, that's not bad is it that? Now then I'm going to leave you to it. Okay, we'll be through in a minute. I'll just go and finish my orange. You don't mind? No. We'll be through in a bit. I think we pay more than that ? Probably. I think fish is over a pound, yeah. Fish is normally about one twenty odd, oh aye. So with the chips as well this is about one sixty. The chips are fifty. Mm. Oh, think he's charged . Or does three sixty sound more like it? Erm three sixty that would be one eighty. Mm. Yeah maybe it was three sixty. get pots of tea ? Is your nan having any? She must be having one, put them straight in the cups. They're one cup things . She must have made one. How ? didn't she? Yep. Ooh come on. Struggling a bit now. Do you want any more chips? Aye. Yeah? Yeah. Seriously? Mm. Do you want more ? No. Mm. Oh I really enjoyed them It was a good idea of mine I thought. Have to take the door off the hinges to get your head out if it gets any bigger. You'll have to check them teas, one's got a little bit less sugar than the other. Well which one? I don't know. Well you made them . all mixed up now. What are you like? Oh pardon me. Let's get past you with this chair. It's lovely not having any washing up. I'll wash me fork. Nice cutlery that isn't it? Mm. It's old. Right. That wasn't, there's nothing wrong with that. God you've gone mad with the sugar in yours. Do you want it topped up? No. Er ooh bit sweet innit?square spoon. You can't drink it with what? With a square spoon. Of er sugars Oh. How do I do this without trapping me fingers? Ooh, god there's some weight in there. Put it all back as we found it eh? Best had. Could you take my coat through please. Yes. It's on the chair. Go on. Oh? Oh erm who is he? He was in that erm what was it called? Alan Bleasdale, you know that fella that did Boys from the Black Stuff Oh aye? Erm he was in one of his plays. Brookside. Oh is it him? I thought it was the fella that had the nervous twitch. Is it? Oh aye of course it is yeah. What was it called? Erm ooh I can't remember what it's called. I don't know any He's been in a few things. Oh is this the new Robert Lindsey his name isn't it? Robert Lindsey. Robert Lindsey Mike says his name is. Mm. Is this the new top me dad put on? Yes. Eh it's posh isn't it? Ooh I'm pleased with it, yeah. This is the one is it that had like er wicker work? Aye well it was all All fraying. it was all I was ashamed of getting it out Well it's lovely that cos it's like you can put your drinks on it as well and your cup of tea and that. Well Mary , she's got one Yeah. but it's not such a nice stool as this, it hasn't got the knobs on like that. No. And it's a little bit higher. And her brother-in-law had put a piece of wood on the top Yeah. for her and I knew it was only hardboard, well knowing your dad I knew he wouldn't put Yeah. hardboard on. No. So I did just ask him er just come to me right out of the blue when he was here one night. And I thought well it's going to be awkward to get a piece of wood for that I mean knowing your dad with wood I know Anyhow I said er it's just the right height for me Yeah. for my for my leg. So I said to er your mum one night oh I said can I have the stool back? I said I know it's awkward getting a piece of wood so she said yeah, that's about three weeks ago. Anyhow er and when she was on the phone the other day I said to Irene oh er Muriel says I'll bring it next time I come I'll bring it. Yeah. So er anyhow when er she was on the phone Sunday night I said oh I said er ask Muriel would she bring that stool back when she comes. So er I never expected to have it like that. No. I said tell her I can always put the the s bit of a square over it Yeah. to cover the holes in the bit like raffia it was wasn't it? Yeah. Well he's varnished it as well. So it's er what is it?chipboa mi chi What er plywood? Chip wood er no Chipboard is it? Plywood that. Plywood. Is it plywood? Aye. That's it then. So your mum got it from er Spectrum. So your dad said well haven't I been soft? I've never thought about it before. Yeah. it's grand. It's given a new lease of life hasn't it? So ooh I said I'm thrilled to bits with that. It's give it a new lease of life. I bet you've had it years haven't you? Pardon? You've, have you had it years, the stool? Donkey's years I bet. Oh years. It was a sister-in-law of mine that bought it. Yeah. Your granddad's er sister. Was it? And she was er always troubled with her nerves. And she used to go back and to for treatment to Yeah. Denbigh. And I used to look after her husband while he was, while she was away getting his dinner and things Yeah? and er they used to ma er she made it there. Did she? You know? They had these classes for er Good god. craft classes for them. So she made it. Ah! And I mean like, to me it means a lot to me as well Yeah. sort of thing. So and it has lasted all those years . Mhm twenty, twenty five years old. Good god. A stool. So it's had a new lease of life with that hasn't it? Yes! So I said ooh I said I Me and Nicola always used to love it. she said oh look what's the, what's the matter with the stairs? Oh I said I'm thrilled to bits with that. Mm right. Aye. Me and Nicola used to fight to get on that. Pardon? Me and Nicola always used to love it when we Yeah. came her. We used to fight to get on it. Oh anyhow Smashing. That's it. And er telly's been off. The colour Oh god! I've got it back two or three times and then I failed it in the end. And aye your mum said today well I'll, I'll see if I can get it er can do anything with it Yeah. and she got it back straight away so that's alright again now. It's only on I T V, the colour had gone. Oh it's annoying isn't it? Aye. Ours keeps going It's annoying and yet it was better than a p Well. And I d I use I T V more than er Yeah. B B C one really. So anyhow that's it. Ha! You busy? Very busy in work. I've been out and about today, I've been to Caernarfen today. You have? Yeah, by myself. Mm. Cos we've got, you know like we did in Ormskirk, these roadside interviews? We've got some of those to do. Erm and I'm all in charge of it. So I'll be expecting a big pay rise at the end of it. Ooh lovely. I've got quite a bit of responsibility to do. So that's that. Jan's got er the sa Jan's doing the same as me Yeah? but she's in L doing hers in Leek in Staffordshire. So we've both got it takes me an hour and a quarter to get to Caernarfen and it takes Jan about an hour and a half to get to Leek because they're such bad roads. Yeah, I was going to say bet it's bad getting there. It is, it's not very nice at all. But er so we're very busy. Which is better than ooh pardon me, than being bored. Yeah. So work's alright. Ooh very good. Mike's still in Ellesmere Port working. Doesn't know how long the work's gonna stay there. No? They seem to there doesn't seem to be much left to do but yet they're still going there and everything. But er that's Steve's ma you know it's it's Steve that sorts that out, his boss. Oh very good. Yes. Aye. Aah! Mike put that light on, you can't read I can see plenty that one thanks. Oh. I'm only flicking through it. He's only looking at the pictures, he can't read really Eh what did you think of the dancing concert? The what? That dancing concert what did you think? Well I shouldn't say this, I, I, I d I, I, I said it I haven't s really said it to Irene but I did say it to Con we went on the Friday didn't we? Now er it wasn't that night I said it, it was afterwards so I said what did you think about the concert then ? Well you tell me what you thought. Well I said I tell you what I thought I said it was a funny ending to begin with wasn't it? Yeah. Didn't like have a finale did it? Not really. No not really, I mean it was sort of. But we all sat there, we didn't know whether we ought to come out or not! Anyhow I said well I shouldn't say this I know and I know times have altered, but I said it wasn't er I said I'm not saying it because Martine and Nicola were in it, but I said to me it wasn't the same as when they were in it. Yeah. I said I know it was all this modern dancing sort of thing and there were a lot of elderly people there on Friday night. Yeah. So well I didn't hear anyone say anything so I said well that's what I thought about it and er I did tell no I haven't said anything to Susan. I mean the dancing was alright and all the children, don't get me wrong Yeah. Just the things And Mrs works very hard well Yeah. I'm bound to say that. But er like I say it's not like the old concerts. No. What did you think of it? Well I thought the sa I mean eve that last thing they did there the Starlight Express thing, I didn't have a clue what that was about. I didn't Erm and I didn't like the way erm she got a few of them's, a few of the gir I know there's only the two lads there, but how she was doing a lot of things with the girls dressed up as boys like that w er what was that song that me dad hates that they did? Erm What a Dame Oh aye. what a dame . Me dad hates that song, well there was the two lads and two girls pretending to be sailors or whatever they were. I don't like the way she keeps trying to do that. No. Erm oh I dunno, some of their things were a bit weird weren't they? Well we're not all the same are we, but I suppose she's got a well your mum said to me well I'll tell you the same as I've told Con but I said I'm not against the children or anything the children No. worked hard on their dancing, and they were lovely Yeah. and I like to see the little ones but er concert no. Well she said I'm like you really she said Yeah. She said a and Irene said, Irene did say she wasn't very keen on this modern dancing. Yeah. And the other thing is of course that Mrs is d doing like she's taking the, the modern musicals and things that have been, you know, down in London, like Cats and Starlight Express and things and she's trying to imitate those, well there's no way she could ever get it as good so she's better off doing something completely different. You know, something more traditional, you know like maybe doing a few things out of The Sound of Music. Yeah. Or, you know, that people ooh yes, that's it, The Sound of Music. I think that'd go down bett or I mean even like when we did the pantomimes, you remember Cinderella we did? I mean it was brilliant really wasn't it? Yeah For like such a amateur er company to do, but people loved it because they they understood everything that was going on. There was dancing in it, there was singing in it. Yeah. Er I think she's a bit too ambitious sometimes. And we were right in the front row and that ruddy music she had! Were you near the front? Ooh that but do you know she has the music too high Too loud. for th even when, when the children are singing Yeah. you can't, I know I don't hear very well, but it was too h too high for to hear them singing. Yeah it drowning them out. That's what I thought when that little boy, I mean he was lovely singing that Yeah. on his own That was her youngest, her lad. That's her youngest boy. Ah he was lovely, bless him. Yeah. But er, like I said they've they do work, she does work very hard with them and er but Mrs hasn't got a way with her at all has she? Not really. No. No. Never has, and she'll never change now No. will she? No. Oh we were having a laugh. Remember when we did that space ship scene? Yeah. And we had the guns Yeah. and we were saying about her mum, Mrs don't you knacker them B guns! Do you remember her shouting at me and Nicola for firing them? Yeah. Cos we said them young kids that had the trumpets for that thing, I bet she had a go at them and all not to knacker them. Ooh dear Ooh dear me But still I said to er Con well, oh well I said to Irene I did, I said it's good for er . Yeah. They get a lot of money out of it don't they? They do. They get all the door money. Yeah. And they get er the raffle Yeah. the money from the raffle as well. Well I mean they don't have a great lot so a concert, did you see the dresses? They were, weren't hemmed or anything. Well I said that's understandable, she said well. Well And I said she never used to do the hem, the er hems when No, no. Nicola and Martine were in it. But then again I said perhaps they'll have to perhaps they'll be thrown on one side some of them. Yeah. They'll never be used again. And to be honest I said it wasn't worth wasting a lot of time on them. No. Because it was only cheap er material Well that's it. wasn't it? Yeah. I must admit I did recognize a few outfits that me and Nicola used to wear. Honestly. Did you? Yeah. These orange tops, we used to do a dance to Vandervalk. You know that do do do doo do do doo do do doo doo doo do do . I recogni I said mum that's the ruddy Vandervalk costumes . These orange ti we, we used to think they were lovely. Yeah, yeah. Erm recognized those and a couple of other things. Erm and me mum was saying how Dyllis Yeah. remember with Helen and Susan? Erm when they were doing the dance thingies cos she was a dressmaker, Dyllis was, she used to say look at these! She hasn't even put seams on them. And she used to do Helen and Susan's, she used to sew all the edges up and everything. Did she? Oh aye. On every costume. She wasn't letting her kids go out Well the sleeves you can't notice well I said I noticed Yeah, all fraying. I said but, but I said I knew Well that's it. that she didn't do any hems or anything. When you're making all that lot No. I don't suppose you're bothered whether they've got hems and neat edges on them. And what was it said was it your mum said she's not very well or something, Mrs 's mother. And she's had to have someone to help her to do, to Yeah. make the dresses this time. Yeah she hadn't done them all this time. I said you could pick out the ones Ma had done. They were the ones with the tatty sleeves. Ooh . Ah dear me We thoroughly enjoyed it, having said that. Oh yes! I was Oh I enjoyed it, don't get me wrong. Yeah. It was But er a nice change as well. but I suppose the likes of me, bit old fashioned aren't we? And there'd be a lot more like me, those elderly people that were there. Well that's it. You know they would rather see the old concerts. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? But I know I, I do. Mrs has got to work with the times hasn't she? Well I suppose so. Because that's the thing like, although if she did something a bit more traditional, it'd probably please the likes of us but when you think, the kids that are doing it, if she says oh we're doing something out of Starlight Express it'll be aah! Oh! You know, I mean that would appeal to them Mm. because they'd think it was really important and Yeah. and they'd probably rather wanna d rather do that that Yeah. than something, you know like a pantomime or something. But er these Yeah. these met us Dad and Mike met us in the pub after. Yeah? I, me and mum went in my car Yeah? and then er dad and Mike come down in the Sierra and met us in the pub. So we had a Yeah. The Red Lion did you go? Yeah. So we had a we stopped in there, we were only gonna have one in there but it was alright in there, we had a nice table and that so we had a good natter You were Yeah. So you didn't see anyone much that you knew? Erm Hayley 's mum come to see me. Ooh Oh she said oh let me have your address! Oh yeah Our Hayley, our Hayley's getting married. your mum told me about her. Yeah. Our Hayley's got a big lump hasn't she! Yes. The size of her! Yeah. You know she used to be so petite, but god them damn legs on her! Yeah. Like er body builder. Yeah. Ooh I didn't like them when they were dressed as skeletons. They what? When they were did that skeleton dance, Hayley and another one. You know when they Oh no. they were dressed as skeletons, I didn't like that. No. Ooh they looked horrible. I think, was it Con asking wh who were they? Think she was asking your mum who were they. But er anyhow to me I enjoyed it when I knew some of the children. Yeah. I shouldn't say these things I s I know but I thought Sally was good. If you don't well you don't do you? Well that's it. Sally was very good. Yeah I mean Sally was very good wasn't she? Yeah. Mm. And Robert wasn't too bad I don't think. No, he was a bit bored really. Yeah. But er er Bren wanted to go to the pub Well I don't, I, I expect Bren Eh? Bren was dying to go to the pub. He I thought he might have sneaked out and come back again when I know he wouldn't leave Robert like, you know No. but er When mum said that we were meeting Mike and er dad in the pub he s it was only about eight o'clock or something and he said will they be there yet, will they be there if I go and have a pint with them? Me mum said no they're not coming till ten o'clock. And we won the bottle of wine, did mum tell you? What? We won the raffle. Ooh yeah! Aye. Yes er Susan told me. Susan I was a bit annoyed, I wanted the cuddly toy but me mum wouldn't let me. Ooh Oh well, was it. I don't know. Ooh. Oh dear. Well I didn't see a soul that I kn I mean I used to go and used to see people like Yeah. from Bradley and Annie and Yeah. Ooh I don't Times change don't they? But we went for Sally really didn't we? Well that's it. Didn't expect to see people like that though. No. There you are. She's very, she, she likes it so Yeah, I think she was very good. But er she doesn't go to do the tapping does she? Just d No. doesn't do this er doesn't like this person that does it instead of er Mrs . Well no it's Hayley that takes it Yeah. she doesn't like Hayley. She's nasty with them though isn't she? Yeah. I can imagine her being a little bitch. And Mrs didn't like Susan telling her Oh. that Sally wasn't going again cos she didn't like her. Mm. She just shrugged her shoulders. Well Susan said I can't make her come if she doesn't want to come. And y best to be honest, it's no good saying you know making up something. I mean she wasn't she wasn't making any l No. telling any lies and making excuses. No. She told her the plain truth. But er she didn't like it. No, I can imagine. But it didn't, it hasn't put Sally off er dancing sort of thing. No. You know. Oh. Well I can imagine this Hayley not being very good with the little ones. Can you? Yeah. I can imagine her being a bit er well not, not bossy like I know when I used to come to your dancing classes isn't it? Yeah. And I know that I mean they, they've got to be corrected, I, I understand Yeah. all that But it's whether you've got the right way isn't it? else, or else they'd never do it properly would they? No. Ah. Anyhow that's it, so Well aye. Yeah. That's it. What was I gonna say? So you saw you've seen Jackie's photo in the Oh that's what I was gonna say then ah! Yeah. It was in that free paper The Free Press? that I had,oh I should have kept that! Anyhow I don't know what I did with it, but anyhow it was in the Friday's Leader wasn't it? That's it. So I did say to your mum here you, you would see Jackie's photo. Yeah. Yes she said, I did. She's doing very well isn't she? Oh and you'd telling everybody up and down that Jackie's had her theatre gr it's this week she's there isn't it? No, last week. It was the last day last Friday. Oh was it now? Yeah. So she'd be telling everybody I expect. Do you see anything of her, Annie ? No, we're not, we're not, I don't see anything of them do I? No. So But me mum noticed though erm cos I said eh have you seen the picture of Jackie in the paper? But we've noticed the last few times it's all Jacqueline now. Oh! Is it really? She do doesn't have Jackie any more, it's Jacqueline, full name. Must be Gwyneth's influence on her that. Ooh! Aye. Cos I had a Perhaps she thinks it sounds n better. Which it does really. Well it does really, yeah. Specially when it, her surname's as common as . Yeah. Yeah. But I know, fair play she's doing very well isn't she? Yeah, yeah I haven't seen Denise since new er before Christmas I saw Denise. I had a Christmas card off her er but I haven't seen her. I should make an effort but she's Well, well we don't, I haven't seen Annie since er Christmas just before Christmas. Yeah. And it was er beginning of December really. It was a while before Christmas so Yeah. Anyhow, that's it. But there's quite a few stopped going to the club with women not being well and their legs bad and Ah goodness knows what, so It's this damn winter. Well the weather, the weather doe hasn't helped. Yeah. Roll on summer. And there were quite a few members had started coming from up the lane and some of the people. Some of the what people? Some of what ? Some people from up the lane which, you know there's some and the women were alright, don't get me Mm? wrong, but they didn't like to play cos all those from up the lane were coming to their club sort of thing. What where's she mean The people up the lane there? Wheatsheaf Lane. Oh right. But like what I saw of the women, they looked alright to me. It never used to bother me Why, are they some of them a bit I mean they paid to go in and just the sa and the women looked alright. Why, aren't they supposed to be very savoury? Pardon? Aren't they supposed to be very nice, these women from up the lane? Well there's sort of a lot of rough ones up the lane isn't there? Ooh. Ooh it's a terrible place up the lane. Is it? Oh! I used to hate it. And we used to go visiting, my Auntie Irene lived there and And we used to go on a Saturday night, I used to ooh and I've told her, I used to tell I wouldn't live that, live up that lane rent free. I hated it. Simply hated it. And when we were going up to ooh. No I never liked it. But I still haven't taken to it . But it's got worse now, it's terrible up there. Has it? Lot of rough ones there now. Mm. You're like Bradley snobs you lot down here. Oh! Well we are this end, but I mean they have a bit of trouble down down there by the club Oh. on a Saturday night after they've been turned out, these young ones Mm. cause a bit of trouble down there but I must say we don't have it here now. No, touch wood. So anyhow Touch wood. That's it. Is er has what's his name, the angry man been up to any antics lately? Has she been to see you? Yeah, she come yesterday er Monday. Mhm. Er no, he's got a bad shoulder. He's, he's a big baby he is. And he's been to the doctors, he goes to doctor Yeah? not the other one. Ah the darkish ? Doctor ? No, not Not they goes to now. It's a darkish er funny name. He doesn't go to, he doesn't go to that surgery now. Doesn't he? No. Haven't done for a long time. I don't know. I'm not very up to date. You know he's isn't he, hasn't he got one of his own up in or something? ? Could have yeah. I think he has. Seem to think me mum's said something like that. That is not very nice. No? So they have the darky which they like, the darky refused to come out to er Kevin's children. Did he? So Sandra changed straight away. She said if he can't come out to the children And he has good as told her that he hadn't got much time for children, visiting children. So she thought well it's no use to going to him. Well that's not the attitude to have is it? So just up the lane she goes. Think she goes to er there are four or five doctors at the clinic up the lane. So she goes there. Oh. So what's wrong with his shoulder? Oh he's only pulled a ligament. Oh. Big babby. So he'd been to the doctors about few weeks ago and he'd been repairing his shed, said there was water coming in and he went to he said oh you've pulled a ligament or something he said, it'll take weeks for it to clear up but anyhow he went back again about a fortnight ago. Oh he said er I'll send you to see a specialist. So he's waiting to go, so when I think that he's had a an appointment, I might stand a chance of having one afterwards, I don't know. Yeah. But old he, he couldn't care less. Just er up the lane to the clinic Aye and I go about every eight weeks I think but er She could go as often as she wanted to the clinic, but they won't come out to her No and being that she's not very good on her legs well, she has to have one to come out. Well isn't there a clinic that she could go to? Well only by getting a lift to the clinic, yeah, that's the only way she could get there Yeah, well it's a long way? No it's only in Buckley Oh but with us in work all the time, time we get home from work the chiropodist's gone Yeah can't she get transport Why which clinic is it the can't she get transport besides like well she can only get a taxi I suppose Yeah Well why can't sh no buses or anything that goes No there's no buses run there Well I wouldn't be able to get there only for Connie really Mm because it's right up in Well why can't Nora walk to it? Well you know what she's like, she's not very stylish on her legs is she? I know, but she walks as far as that So it comes a bit expensive for her then doesn't it? Yeah Mm oh dear She has er, she's got very wide feet as well Nora has Has she? and er, she bought some well some new shoes ages ago, she has er about an F extra wide fitting really, er wide Wide er she bought these new leather shoes quite a while ago, but even they and they were the widest she could buy, but they needed stretching, so Joanne, Paul's girlfriend, had got one of these shoe stretching things, you put it in and twist it and it goes up and up, well even that at it's highest wouldn't, you know, at it's furthest, well it was sticking out as far as it could go, even that wasn't filling it, so she stuck a spud down the end of it She done a what? She wedged it in with a spud, with a potato I know and then did it and it's worked so they've, they've stretched now Oh that's a good idea I er stuff mine with er newspaper Yeah but I know that doesn't do much good really No well she had this special thing so it's done the trick so she hasn't worn it yet though, I think she's doing it for the wedding ain't she? Yeah Oh she had new shoes She's gonna wear them for the wedding? Yeah Soon come round now won't it? Oh yeah Yeah twenty fifth of April Mm Ah it'll be your Paul's birthday second, first of April Mm April fools' day Paul's birthday is Yeah ah, Paul's birthday is on April fools' day so er we must remember to buy him a card and something Mm, mm get him a sweatshirt or something Janice is a is it Friday or Saturday? Saturday, he's forty on Saturday Good god She doesn't want a no fuss and I said ooh, I said I forgot about her being forty, I bought the card a few weeks ago Yeah oh Irene said never I bet it's granddaughter that's on it, I said yeah it is, so any Well I, she might not want reminding that she's forty good god No she doesn't want any fuss, Con's made her a big cake I believe a very nice cake Eileen said Mm, mm, is she busy with doing her cakes Con? Pardon? Is she busy doing cakes at the moment, Aunty Con? No she's not doing many No I think she's glad of the rest to be honest Ah she has got another one besides Janice's, er, but I think it's a birthday cake yeah it is a birthday cake Yeah er er Irene's called this morning as they were going to mm, mm and she said Con had rung her up to say Kevin is going abroad, the other side of the world I can't remember the name, there's four of them going from Aerospace Mm and they've had to have er, no end of injections, different injections To do with work or? Yeah Good god I forget the country, I couldn't remember Eileen was laughing, so she says I don't know how Kevin would be, I don't know whether it's today, he's gone she said, he's had to have one up his bum Good god, when does he go? I don't know when he goes, I haven't heard the story properly, cos I was upstairs and, er well Ron was half way upstairs and Eileen come on to the landing and I was in the bathroom, so I says I'll come down, no she says you needn't bother cos we're not staying we've only just er come to see how you are Gosh so she just told me that so I'll have all the news of Colin tomorrow they've gone for a week You don't know how long you think he's going for? A week he's going for Oh, god it's not long to, to have all those injections, it's not long to go for Well it's very bad country of ooh of them having all these injections Good god They're not just ordinary injections No so I don't know, I'll have the news tomorrow All will be revealed Pardon? All will be revealed I don't know how I, I feel sorry for the children because they'll miss Kevin won't they? Yeah But er I think it'll be a good break for Kevin but er I expect Sandra will miss him as well Yeah Oh any Mind you a week won't be too bad it might do them good mightn't it? Because he's a kind of a foreman now you see so er Oh I suppose er he feels that he's got to go I expect Yeah I don't feel he's got to go, but, he's lucky I suppose to be chosen to go Well that's it , it might lead to better things mightn't it, I say it might do them good to be away from each other for a week any way, mightn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah And the kids for that matter Anyhow very good how's uncle Ron? er Irene was er, erm bath on a Tuesday and Ron usually goes, Ron doesn't stay in very long, Irene just goes for about half an hour so she said Ron isn't coming to the bath today, he's got a bad throat, and I never thought to say, how is his throat this Oh morning, but it must've been alright because er he was going off with David, I said you got tablets for him and she said yeah plenty of stuff for him, anyway, he seemed, he looked alright anyhow Oh good so I think we'll all be a lot better when the summer gets here Yeah I think this weather gets a lot of people down doesn't it? I know it hasn't been bad can't complain can we? Oh I think we've had a marvellous winter But erm, even so I think that we've had the rain and the wind haven't we? That's it yeah But it's been marvellous really, but they did have snow last weekend, did you have any in last weekend? No Well Brin was working somewhere on your dad's lawn Good god just a shower , a snow shower no oh where he was working I don't know, it was Ron that was saying last Sunday when I was there Yeah so I don't know where it was, but er, he, he was working Yeah so, where are you working Mike? Ellesmere Port Oh, is it don't know how long for got a lot of work there? Not much left there now, no No begging jester then Oh and I didn't think it was so near your mum going, well I suppose I never Yeah think of looking at the date, I knew the dates twenty fourth to the twenty seventh, I never, I never thought to look, but er No it's she said er just next week is it? what eighteenth to yeah eighteenth today Yeah, next week so it's next Tuesday Yeah, yeah, yeah It's gone quick ain't it? We're dog and house sitting Yeah she said you were going, oh Yeah, great so she was telling me all about it and er, the times they were going, oh it'll be nice for them Yeah they don't go to She'll want to take some warm clothes Ooh I'll say it might be colder there than it is here Yeah, they don't go till six o'clock on the Tuesday night Oh, ah so we can take erm down to Mold wherever they've Yeah wherever they go from Yeah erm and it, we'll be staying up there Is it Mold that er I think so I think they get, I think it's Mold they go er did she say whereabout? Evening Leader Office Aye, by the Evening Leader Office Oh on, on the Wrexham road coming out of Mold, er pardon me, erm and then I've got a couple of days holiday to use up still from work Oh have you? so I might have a couple of days off and then I can be with Laddie and take him for walks and everything Oh save getting Teggy to do it Yeah and so perhaps she's perhaps she's she doesn't know that, she said Teggy would be looking after er Laddie Yeah, er she said might and er Martine is coming to stay, well I thought you would do really, because er, I didn't think they'd leave the house No, we love going up there anyway, it'll be like a holiday I say it'll be like a holiday for us, we love going up there Yeah Great, get some nice fresh air in us lungs Yeah, right So it'll soon be Easter as well won't it? Pardon? It'll soon be Easter Yeah it will That's er, April Mm and so we might so she was thirteen, I, I have trodden on the mat that one of the round, the cruise of the Rhine You've done that, have you? Yeah Ooh and er I looked at the advert in the paper and they go to er, where they make those, wines and Ooh, ooh that sounds alright spirits on , spirit something, well I said where we went I said you're doing something similar to what we did, we had brandy and it took us all through the cellars You dammed alky and gave us brandy, gave us brand oh oh that's it Mm, mm, yes is there anything you want on now or you want snooker and football on? There's football on this side Oh Liverpool Liverpool you want? Yeah Oh I put it on, er what was I gonna say then? What were we just talking about then? Oh I, when did you go to Germany then? Oh years ago How many years ago? I think it was my first hol it was my first holiday abroad Oh was it? I went with the W I Good god Yeah, we had a good holiday though Er, who would be with you then Freda or something? The first time I'd gone abroad Who would of been with you then Freda or didn't you, weren't you? Er Freda, yeah Yeah Freda and Mrs who used to keep the fish shop and another person Joyce, she wasn't very big, we used to call her little Joyce Oh we had, we had a good laugh really did, it was a good holiday Yeah but er I wonder if you'd seen much change in it if you went back now Mm, well I'd expect we would, but er Mm I didn't, we didn't think to take down all the different places we went to you know No and you can't remember them it'd be our first er holiday abroad, but er No we really enjoyed it, it's a laugh up the Rhine Yeah, well it'll be a nice change for mum and dad anyway won't it? Yeah it'll be a nice change for them Yeah, smashing Oh We went to Southport the other week did mum tell you we went? Oh yes your mum said Er be fortnight ago it's coming true it's coming he'll soon be two the little boy August God how time flies You should see him , well, he's so wiry, he's into everything, how they cope with him, he's not naughty as such but he's such erm You think he's a bit highly strung? Erm yeah, do you Mike? What's that? Think James is a bit highly strung Yeah, well, he's like any little kids I think Mm there's no stopping them is there? Yeah he's not he won't Mind some are worse than others aren't they? Yeah Mm I think sometimes I can't help but think it's how they made him in a way, you know, like I, you, sometimes your, I think you should sit down and play with something, but he won't sit quiet and amuse himself No he's running up and down and thing, you know I I don't know maybe it is the way he is, but Perhaps it is his nature you know Yeah , but er, he's a cracking little lad Oh er and they might be coming up to stop with us at some time over Easter Oh so er, cos me heart was in me mouth when they come up for Christmas, and that's the last time they were up I thought me tree's gonna go over, you know, I thought if he pulls at me tree or anything, but, he was, he was as good as gold for not, he wasn't trying to get me ornaments or anything, he was er, you know, just happy to play with his own toys, so he wasn't naughty. Oh well, well they've got to be taught haven't they? Well that's it Yeah Yeah No I tell you what's nice to see them again Oh she's, she's only just had her money through, remember when we met them in Tenerife Yeah she not long had that bad car accident Ooh has she? at Claire's , yeah, er, she'd been a passenger and somebody had come into them and oh she was in a hell of a state, all, lucky to be alive really, she nearly lost erm, her arm and everything, lost, nearly lost the use of her arm, she's had a lot of facial surgery stuff and that and all her teeth had been knocked out and oh she was in hospital for months and months Good lord and that's why if you remember she was pregnant when we met her Yeah but she had a miscarriage when she went home Yes she lost the baby and they thought, they said then it was connected with the accident, erm because it, you know, she was in such a bad way, and, the other fellow was to blame, I think he'd been drinking, I'm not sure, but they're claiming off the insurance and they reckon she's gonna be entitled to around a hundred thousand pounds compensation, because, not only has she had these physical injuries, but because she had a knock on the head it's also affecting her mental state Oh dear erm sort of, at fir , you know, at first I thought sometimes you know oh, you know what's the matter with you like but, she admits herself, her I Q, you know how they judge your intelligence has gone right down, she has to have tests every now and again, er she can't concentrate on things, or, you know some things she just can't do any more, so she's at, supposed to be getting all this compensation and it's been going on now, it was two years ago, three years ago that we met them and she's only just had the first part of her money, she's had five thousand pounds, that's all she can get for the time being all the rest is, cos all solicitors and everything and doctors having to come and check things, so she knows, she knows she'll get money eventually, but er, it's just when, but isn't it an awful thing? Ah Well Valerie was, she was the same weren't she? That's right, yeah she'll be going through all the same thing trying to get money Ooh, oh no Terrible is she out of hospital now and that? and, and Valerie and now they've bought the daughter a car, she's been a naughty girl really, they've given her everything haven't they? Mm Then she got engaged, but er Valerie thought that would settle her down Yeah which was wrong, Valerie was over the moon really that she got engaged to this fellow, but he was much older than er Michelle and I, and er he didn't want to settle down No so the engagement was broken off and then after that she sort of she went to live in a flat, she left home and went to live in a flat and she's been up and down Mm in Rochet, now she's up in Pentrybrogan, and that's when the accident happened Oh she was taken out of work one morning and now they've bought her another car and I don't where it's happened but somebody's gone into the back of her Oh god all the car's bashed in Michelle hadn't heard the story properly No but Valerie's she's, she's going on alright but er, she can't move those fingers No she can move them but she's got no use in them, so they said it'll take a long time Mm and they might never come back again Terrible isn't it? which will be a big blow to er Valerie, because she run Family Fashions that's right, yeah you know all the books and things, and she did a lot of sewing didn't she? Mm But er I did go with Con when I went for a perm she said oh would you like to, would you like to go and see Valerie Yeah I have and er we just went for about ten minutes, but she's alright in herself Yeah , it's a shame innit? Yeah, there we are I don't know and er they said well they, they'll have no trouble with er compensation No but it was Shell that ran into her Was it? It wasn't the man's fault really of Shell, it was another car really that caused the Mm trouble sort of thing, but er I don't know whether they bought it thinking they'll have all this money or what but er No I don't think they're short of money to be honest cos Valerie has a good job I know it's nice to have the compensation, but when you think of what you're missing Oh the money isn't everything is it? That's it it's nothing at the end of the day It will only buy so much , it won't buy everything money won't. What if you lose the use of your hand it won't buy that back Well that's it will it? and she's had a plate put in there Yeah she did show me that and then she's got it like straps on it where she can take it off but er oh she It goes through you doesn't it? Mm, it does, it's true I don't know and then the trouble soon be off, won't she? Yeah Alice came and erm, in the night to Con and they go to er America How is They're in camp for a holiday Are they? Jane and her husband Oh that's nice and er Jane's er in-laws Oh, big happy families She's a bit nervous oh She said Monday night I, er I don't know whether we've done the right thing by booking this holiday she said, I'm thinking about the travelling in the air, it'll be in travelling for eleven hours so she said I don't know how I'll be, I said it's no use looking at it like that Alice now No if you've booked it, I said you ought to look forward to it but er, I suppose it's just come over her Yeah so, that's it Oh I can imagine it being a bit strained off and on with er two lots of parents or do they know each other well and everything? She gets on alright with er Phil's mother and father Yeah I don't know if they've been on holiday with them Well I was, there's nothing to say they've got to all stick together they can all do their own thing can't they? Oh they'll stick together I should imagine, but er, there you are Mm so Ooh look at the people there Yeah and the lad from work's a scouser he's said it, I'm going home now to watch the football, I think he's going there actually, I think he could be there, Rob you know him Mm bloody rubbish it is The what? yeah, so she said Well she brought a pie and she brought some er punch round Oh and er, she said can I warm it? And she warmed that and she had er this er steak and kidney pie and er, I said what's Spike having? He's having he was having punch I've got what a nice mac she said Yeah, she said the other, er yesterday, er I don't know what it's like she hasn't told me yet, oh er me mum's bought one, oh aye, me mum's is very nice I've seen that, I know me dad's had one as well. Yes he's had one as well Yeah, er yeah me mum's is nice like a mustardy colour Yeah long, very nice, very posh, erm I don't know what me dad's is like, er me mum was laughing er yesterday erm with er doing all this work she'd done a load of washing and pegged it all out and when she'd got in from work dad had ironed it all Oh I've, I've never ever known him to iron anything ever since I've been you know, little, I've never seen him iron anything but me mum was in fits because he'd even ironed the socks so she said she didn't have the heart to tell him that she doesn't usually bother with the ruddy socks, but er the thought was there wasn't it? Very nice, oh yes Good god Oh ironing socks good lord that is he'll the latest innit? Well I tell you what like, I never bother ironing socks, but I do iron me pants but I only just show them the iron well I just , well that's it show them the iron and flip them over , but there's er Sally and Russell that live across the road from us, er when Russell her husband lived at home, his mum always used to iron his socks and his boxer shorts and everything, now he won't wear them unless she's ironed them he won't Oh she's tried just shoving them, and he won't, haven't, he won't wear them Mm, no point in ironing socks I said I'd wrap them round his damn neck no point in ironing socks I might try and iron as little as they possible can Oh but like say I'm alright like cos Mike doesn't have a shirt for work or anything like some people, with, with, they've got an office job, he'd have to have five clean shirts for the week wouldn't he? Quite And all ironed and, I'm glad I don't have to do that, he has his old jumper on and a T-shirt smashing Yeah saves me the job anyway Yeah Ooh I can't stop yawning I've been going into work a bit earlier lately You have? Yeah, I'm usually in for about quarter to eight, half seven, quarter to eight Finish earlier? Erm yeah, can finish at four o'clock then Oh very good so er next week I'm going to start going swimming straight from work as part of my keep fit Very good Well I Adrian looks forward to going er, she just does half an hour Aye, she goes up to Up in Summerhill does she? Yeah every Tuesday Well I, I think it's nice, supposed to be a very good way to relax and everything Yeah isn't it? Yeah, well she said she, she feels it does her, her legs good Yeah so Oh I'm gonna start going, I haven't been swimming for that long and I've been saying off and on oh I must go, I must go, but when it's so cold outside you don't feel like coming out with all wet hair and all that Oh but I said once I said and I, when she's been going and it's been cold out there I said to her cos she always comes on a Tuesday dinner time Yeah when I'm just gonna have my she only has a biscuit, sometimes she'll bring scones or cake or, if she'd been baking Well, yeah and er, I say oh, and they allow you to go in this cold weather Mm but she said it's lovely and warm when they get there Ooh I bet she said, lovely and warm Yeah You had your Poll Tax forms? Renewals No No No, ooh we've had ours on the What, how much is yours? I haven't had them back yet Oh ours is, Mike knows somebody, one of the lads, their mum works in the Poll Tax Office in Buckley and erm, she reckons that, that ours will be going up about fifty pound is it? Yeah How much? She reckons ours will go up about fifty quid It's awful really when you think there's such a lot of people got away with it all Well this is it we've said like, there's so much that everybody's got to pay for non-payers isn't there? Yeah Erm, I don't think we should pay it I don't think so either certainly don't, but the thing is that I should say just pay your own and that's enough yeah , the thing is, the people that are paying it, we're paying more than we've ever paid before and we're getting less back Yes like for a kick off, he went down to the skip last Saturday, the tip, we had, er he was clearing out the back yard, he took some rubble and boxes and things down there, and he was talking to the fellow there they said oh, he said er they were shutting this skip, er they're moving it down the road and you'll have to pay, you'll have to pay to tip your rubbish Ooh and they'll charge more for works vans, didn't he say? Yeah If it's a works van tipping rubbish, they'll charge them more, but you'll have to pay, I don't know whether they'll do it by the load or by the bin bag or, what, you'll have to pay to dump your rubbish. Well that's a bit of a devil And we're paying Poll Tax, I said all that'll happen erm, and this poor fellow's out of a job as well Ooh honest to god it makes your blood boil and these and these rents have gone up I expect Nora's flat has gone up Yeah it has Four, four, four pound forty seven that's only just on the rent Mm and then it'll be all the rates, I know I can get a bit of rebate, but er, I don't do bad really after having some rebate, but No Robert's is gone up over five pounds, theirs is a different kind of a house you see a parlour type Why what's it's a parlour type why what's the difference? Well she's got two rooms downstairs, which she'd rather have one of these really, one big one What of the same sort, sort of size as yours or are theirs bigger? Well theirs is, but it's bigger because they've got the two rooms, like one big room split in half you see Yeah whereas a lot of people just put an archway like Colin Ah but er, they take a lot of heating Yeah by doing that sort of thing Yeah so he's going mad really, but, how much it'll be in the end I don't know, so Oh god, yeah I can hardly remember this before it was all done out Fully re-modernized Yeah I can't You can't Not really you can't remember the kitchenette and the bathroom downstairs, little grate in the other place? No Mm er did the grate use to be like where the fridge is? Yeah Oh, the on that wall in there Yeah and the little kitchen I remember Yeah it's where your sink is now, but it was like smaller wasn't it? yeah Shut off Yeah, but er I had my bath put upstairs in the spare room Oh that's right so that we made that little place what was the bathroom into a little cookery place, I put, we put the cooker in there, then we had our bath, had our bath put upstairs you see Well what and the washer used to have what used to be the bathroom the little pantry, did that use to be the bathroom? Yeah, across from the pantry Er? used to be along, another, another little room there Oh I can't remember that you know Can't you? No And then in the, where the bath used to be, in this little bathroom I had the cooker and the washer that's it, I made it into a little kitchen so Yeah that we had that like a little sitting room, I just had a settee in there and a couple of chairs, it was lovely and cosy in there Yeah we never used to come in this room you know, nobody would come in this room Was this always just a big room though? Pardon? This was always just one room Oh this was always the same You used to have the dining table over there Yeah at one time didn't you? and then I got rid of that, that dining table didn't I? So there Ah me memory's not bad No, everybody used to clock for that little kitchen Yeah it was lovely and cosy in there Mm Yeah How long ago would it be now that you had it all done? Pardon? Cos I remember erm what I do remember is when you were having it done, stopping in the caravan with you good god And you used to have your toast Oh, all it was lovely, yeah made by the gas fire Oh it was lovely that was and remember that programme that used to be on, erm Within These Walls about the prison, the women in prison? That's it, yeah Oh and you used to let us stop up and watch him, it must of been on at about nine o'clock or something Yeah, yeah oh I used to love it you used to sleep the night, didn't you? Yeah, we stopped a few times you know in the Yeah, yeah caravan because I remember it Oh I was quite happy there How long ago was that then, how old would I of been then, when you had all these alterations done? I would be about Seven ,seven , about seventeen or eighteen sixteen years ago Yeah seventeen years ago, good god Might be more than that Martine and Mrs she had the next caravan to, to me Mm, I can see them now the outside, they were like made, made to look like wood weren't they the caravans? Mm But it was like er, it was good there, used to like that Oh aye, it would be more than that because you're the twenty second of February Er twenty five Twenty five Oh no, am I twenty six? Twenty five Twenty five until December Fine so you were not very old when you used to come no, maybe I was only about five, maybe it was twenty years ago Yeah, tis a long time ago I know Good god, no wonder I can't remember much about this then No it is it I remember coming for tea and er the table was where it is now I don't know whether it was It was right, it was under the window Yeah it was a drop leaf table Yeah, and you remember me and Nicola used to have our special bowls, I used to have erm, Little Bo Peep and she had Mary, Mary quite Contrary well Yeah I can remember, we used to have like mints in a bowl, lovely mints didn't we and erm potat , and we used to have the mints just in the bowl and I remember boiled potatoes, you remember erm, you know like, when we, when we were coming like and I can see everything now and I can see me little bowl and everything but, that must of been, was that when the fire was still there then that was with the Yeah oh the fire still be there Cos, erm, you know, say we picked dad up from work and we used to come here straight from work didn't we for tea? You used to come once a week for dinner Wednesdays Mm was it? Was it, did he? on a Wednesday Yeah Yeah used to be lovely, I remember all that ha and I used to mince the meat myself Yeah you and there was one week that Pat came, because I used to get the meat off of the van by the gate then, and I don't know what it was this week, but I bought the meat ready minced and when I come to give it to you, I knew there'd be complaints, I don't know what we were having but you always used to have this mince and you wouldn't eat the mince because it was the bought mince meat How could I tell? and it was a thing I never buy a, I never bought any afterwards How could I tell never did buy mince meat I never liked, I never fancy but you wouldn't eat it anyhow. What was the difference, did it look different? Oh, there's always a lot of fat and stuff in it Aye but I used to put it through the mincer didn't I? Yeah, cut all the fat off first I used to make rissoles that was it, for us and put onions with it Yeah and you and Nicola would not eat the onions Ah so I used to keep the mince what I'd done, separate for you and Nicola that's it, I remember before I made rissoles I did it Yeah or perhaps I make a rissole sometimes, but not put any onion Yeah in, mm, and sometimes I'd give it to you just loose sort of thing Oh it used to be lovely Oh Those were the days Yeah, been back a while have you? God it is as well Yeah, how is Judith? Alright, she'll be expecting she reckons she's due on the twenty third of March, but the hospital say it's, it's the twenty ninth, so it'll be next week, I'll have to give a ring, we went to see her the other week, to see how she was, erm we went round er one night, I rung her up to see if she'd be in, I said right we'll be round for an hour Did she, did she get married again? Yeah I thought she did she'll of been married just twelve months in June pardon me so er, we think she's having a boy. Mike had a dream the other night that she had a, a little boy, but er, the funny thing was it'd only just been born but it could talk It was what? It had only just been born but it could talk properly and everything So I said well coming from Judith it wouldn't surprise me if it could bloody talk Good lord but er, I think she'll have a boy as well Think so Yeah, I dunno why why? I dunno, just think she will Cos if you're thinking the way they carry the baby it's an old woman's tale I think, I never used to think I can never remember which way round is and if you were having a boy they used to say you would carry the baby all round sort of thing Yeah if you were having a girl it was mostly in the front, but er that wasn't true really No but that was an old woman's tale really, that's going back a few years ago Ah no I ju , I dunno why I just think she'll have a lad What does she want boy or a girl? Not bothered, as long as it's healthy she's not bothered Oh well, bless It's the best way to be innit? It is the best yeah No good saying, trying to pick and choose cos you get what you're given in the end Do you As long as it's healthy that's all that matters innit? Mm, so long as everything's alright, that's the main thing. That's it Yeah Well Amanda'll be especially as children are today, born today Well that's it Terrible isn't it? Yeah Never used to be like this, I don't know why it is now No, but Amanda will be in her element won't she? She will, will she? Oh she'll be like a little old woman, she's, well she's nine, I think she's going on thirty nine, to listen to her She's old is she? She's lovely, she's grown out of that mardy Has she? braty type She's growing up a bit? Yeah, er well if they're not too careful she'll of grown up before they realize it, oh she goes on at you oh, like an old woman, she knows everything, she knows more than Judith about what's going on Good lord Oh she's, but she's gone nice, I must admit, cos I always did like her, even though like they use to say she was spoilt and that, well, you can't help it No I mean the way she's been brought up and that with Kingsley and the mum, course she's gonna be spoilt Mm but, I think this'll do her good to have a little sister or a little brother Yeah, oh she'll enjoy it, I expect Oh god, I think she'll be a good help for Judith Yeah, yeah , how many horses has she got now? Er, she's only got the one of her own Judith has, erm but she's quite busy there with other people's Is she? Yeah, got quite a few on, she was full actually when we went to see her Mm, men alright? Er Went to see them the other week Yeah, went to give her a lesson Ah he was looking very well Oh very good so er yeah I'm glad they're doing alright with him now Yeah cos the eldest daughter had gone off it a bit Had she? Yeah, she'd got a boyfriend and, with her school work as well, like she's doing her A levels now and she just got a little bit, you know, because it is a big you know you've got to be dedicated haven't you? It's no good going one day and not bothering How old is she? Seventeen Oh like, you know what I was like, all through school and me A levels I was still going down every day and everything Yeah erm, and I thought aye up, is she gonna go off completely, so her mum was worried about her and the mum said oh I don't Pardon, oh the mum said oh put the light on Mike I think she's going off it a bit so I said oh well I'll come and have a chat and I said listen, I said, I realize you you've got a lot of school work and that and you've got your boyfriend, I said, but there is now way that you're gonna let him stand in the field, getting fat and getting old you've got He's got to have exercise yeah I said if you've lost interest in him then all you have to do is tell me, I said there'll be plenty of other people Would like you know plenty of other little girls that would want to look after him, and I said it's no good relying on Vicky because she, the little sister, she's nine, she was too young to do things by herself, you know, I said there's no way you can let, leave it all to Vicky, so that if you don't want him any more you must tell me and I said there'll be no hard feelings but that's it, cos he comes first at the end of the day, so she said oh I, oh I have been naughty have you been? Yeah He's been to the toilet already Good god lad, so erm, she said oh I know I've been naughty and I have, not neglecting him in a naut , you know, they've been making sure he's been alright Yeah I know but just riding him, well that's what he needs, so I said well you just see as you think on just keep exercising him, so erm, after that she's been alright and the little sister's getting really good with him Ah erm, because she's, she's quite big for her age, but like Louise she's quite tall now, she's nearly too tall for him even though there's nothing of her she must only be about seven stone, erm, but this little Vicky she's oh thinking she's really good now and she's improved so much and getting confident as well, and the dad takes in, he puts the bridle on him, he takes the dog in one hand and Min in the other he goes for walks for miles with the, with the horse and the dog Dave does he loves it, goes for miles with them Good lord Or, like he, if the little girl's riding him, he always goes with her then as well, but even if the girl's not on him, he takes him for a walk like a big dog so I mean, they're lovely people, you couldn't wish to have him with nicer people, erm, you know they are, they really are nice Oh well so er, it'll be nice for them in the summer, especially for the little sister, now she's getting more confident in the summer like they can go to all the shows and that Yeah so er, they're really pleased Oh very good so mm Win and Caroline are moving once again, has me mum told you that saga? Your mum did tell me a few weeks ago Oh I lose patience with them that er, that the house is still up for sale Mm Oh I lose patience, on the market now must be terrible to be Yeah because they must be up to their eyes in debt Well, I don't know really whether they are or not, I mean he must earn damn good money, erm not so much off his that Yes but he spends a lot doesn't he Martine? Well that's it, erm, like she, I don't think she makes a fortune, she only makes enough probably for food and that, he doesn't make that much off his dad because his dad's a stingy thing, but he does the taxing as well and he does foreigners, but erm, you know, like they've got their bills to pay and everything, they don't economize on anything, they have massive gas bills and And they've just had a new car haven't they? Yeah, so they're paying that off, er I think, I think they're mad, I really do they only, they only pay a hundred and odd pound a month for this mortgage they've got at the moment because they bought it, it was only sixteen thousand, well it was cheap it was before the boom Where are they going? She's seen somewhere in the The other week I got a Steven was doing the front lawn said they went in just to see how she was Yeah and she'd got a table in front of her and she was sitting on the settee and the table in front of her and this new jigsaw, over a hundred pieces in it and there she was lady lady muck from turd hall Breakfast pots were there Oh and er they, they had a bit of and all the pots were there Yeah for Steven would come in and he'd have to wash all up Well more fool him if he does that and, and her sitting down either doing this jigsaw or watching films would you He's doolally for putting up with it isn't he? Oh dear, dear Right I'm gonna go to the toilet and rinse these for you Yes, okay , well it's been lovely seeing you innit? Aye it's been nice coming up Oh so you'll be off for Easter Mike will you? Only, we work the Good Friday but we have the Tuesday off Oh so we'll have the Bank Holiday Monday off and the Tuesday Oh, well that's not too bad then It's late this year though Easter isn't it? Yeah, mm, soon be here won't it? It will It will oh I think we're all ready for bed, we're all yawning Pardon? We're all yawning I think we're all ready for bed Does Nora go for a holiday? No No she never bothered No Oh She used to years ago but she doesn't bother any more No now No, oh I don't think I could do the travelling now that I used to do, but er No you have to sit with your memories now, don't you? Oh aye I don't mind, I don't mind so long as I just get out a bit on, into town and Well this is it do a bit of shopping so yeah, I haven't been doing that this last few weeks but, any Well if the weather breaks a bit now, get a bit of sun, be able to get out a bit, with a bit of luck anyhow me new tablets are he had to go to hospital, he's got arthritis in his legs from Aye all these drugs he's been having, so they gave him some er tablets and er, he said on Sunday he was in such pain, so he said try these, he has given me some before, but er, you're supposed to take two and I was only taking one Aye and they didn't do anything for me, so anyhow I've started taking two, they have helped a bit Oh good anyhow, but I found out now that they're on prescription so, he said this morning you can have some more tablet, no I said I can get them off the old quack Oh aye so anyhow, oh dear Oh dear, right let's make a move I tell That blinking election is getting on your nerves Oh I've had enough of it and it hasn't even and we've got a month yet started yet has it? Ooh Getting on me nervous like a lot of little children Yeah load of rubbish, that's what I think. Listen why don't you let us pull the door to nan Mhm save getting up to see us out, oh I suppose you have to put the catch on do you? No, I don't put the catch on We'll have to get you one of those exercise bikes, that'll get you going Exercise bike been lovely seeing you, anyway Been lovely seeing you too. Yeah We won't leave it so long the next time Anyhow I'll see you on Sunday Yeah I'm supposed to be at your mum's for the weekend Do you want your stick now? Pardon? Do you want me to get you your stick? Yes please It'll be easier. Yes you're up on Sunday, yeah Yeah okay Yeah Is there anything you want fetching from upstairs or anything before we go? No , no love thank you very much You only have to go to bed, when you go up there Can you manage that door Mike, it's awfully awkward Yeah, I think I might You know what I should be using Oh nan I haven't had any taken off, but er I mean it'll go alright now Well Yeah that's it but it's been the old nut crackers Yeah anyway anyhow love you lots Yeah you take care, I hope your leg anyhow I'll go by the window , I'll go by the window Don't stand in the cold save standing in the cold I'll give this to ta ta then, see you at the weekend Yeah Okay, bye nan ta ta Bye ta ta oh, at least it hasn't come to rain again pull Oh my light hasn't come on You did something to the catch before didn't you? Oh That's it? Is it? Yeah Oh twenty minutes ago when Max said he was gonna take ten minutes it is up and running insults on that Can we have the Okay, if you want to see a sample of Morning Richard Good morning Mart I, I know as you can see I think it's very useful each item do what? to actually put a line in ha ha Okay ya so if you can get it to do that and er Just a we also have the coding based on the coding on the one we've already got and won't do anything about that it's not together you and Jan between you, you and Marty between you could do that how powerful is that microphone? It can hear you Really, from that distance, I see The problem is fitting all this in with everything else Well er I don't think well that is a problem we all have to suffer Jan, erm and this shipment, this really shouldn't have to be more than ten or fifteen minutes work with you and Marty No perhaps not but, but passing it on to, to Darren to do the er perhaps not, but added to everything else, plus you want the archiving doing, the A three drawer doing, I don't know when on earth I'm going to have time to do that You can't I mean I was in eight and a half hours yesterday, eight hours a day before Which archiving is that? You asked me to do the Wigan archiving but it didn't get finished No Yes er I can't yes I figure that I can't claim any overtime or anything for erm, well, any overtime for but I'm working all these But you've not asked about overtime No, well I'm asking I mean I was Like anybody else you can claim overtime Yeah whether it was or whatever job Billy how many hours shall I put down for yesterday, does three sound reasonable? What do I have to have someone to collect the hours before I can claim it? Mm Does three hours sound reasonable? How do I fill the form out? Mm If you want to claim overtime, you talk to me You know I don't mind coming on a Sunday and doing all this erm archiving stuff Is it a big job? Well, cos there's a fair amount to do the A three drawer's gonna take a long time When you say the A three drawer Yeah, the drawer in, the new cabinet we've got with it it's got Wigan reports plus drawings in it Oh you mean that little cabinet we've got there Yeah Yeah That little cabinet that is crammed full of stuff I think sling everything out in here Why are you gonna have a word with that overtime as well? If it's necessary can I have yeah If it's necessary I'm, I'll encourage you to do it Mm, mm you know, if it's got to be done, it's got to be done, I won't worry about it, please ev , all I'll say is, is, is can we please try and arrange it in advance, I'd rather Oh yeah you know signing that you do it in advance rather than just oh yeah but don't worrying about that job you're doing, because it doesn't matter whether it's a fix fee job or or whatever, overtime doesn't do the job anyway Oh oh the hours you do get charged to the job, normal hours Mm, mm which you're gonna have to do anyway Yeah er, so, so over overtime is an overhead really Yeah which we're going to have to sustain, but we can sustain that's fair enough At the moment we're fair comment okay, so er Well he was hopeless yesterday, even had a kick of the ball, when he did he He was a waste of space Who ? It went just straight in The Tottenham game was really good wasn't it? You let them down Yeah you, you were meant to come on and score two goals and Yeah You got the score they had the chances they tried oh he did he did, he put one two chances in the first twenty minutes Had er, I was gonna say wasn't in the game, I just thought he was kind of harden No, every time he got the ball he'd kick it away Let's face it, let's face it Liverpool are not an international class team, if they can't if they cannot they are not an international playing team Hey, switch that bloody thing off Go on have your say Rob I hope you're not selling this the I think you have, I think you have to bear in mind the er circumstances What's your address they, they were going up to score Of course they were and they failed, and they failed to penetrate the defence Yeah until the second half, in the second half they got they got a bit closer than Dewsbury though I've got to, I've got to admit the second half they were lucky our goalie produced four brilliant saves in about three minutes He was very lucky, as well, it just happened so many times he but the point is the point is Liverpool spent er ninety minutes over in Italy and forty five minutes in Anfield to penetrate their defence, it wasn't until the second half last night that they got anywhere near through, through, through the solid block of the defence No, no I don't agree with that Yeah, but if there hadn't, there hadn't of given that goal away and they were pushing forward That's right and they hadn't given that goal away, they'd of scored another in that half Liverpool mm Yeah, but on a different day four of those could of gone in. they, they should of done, but they didn't, the point is they shouldn't of left it the last minute, they should of done it in the first place I tell you what they're under pressure from a hard manager I, I, I don't and I, I I've never liked I think I think there's a lot of hope and promise Well I've still got two accounts in er June They had more shots at the target last night than anybody the second and the fourth He, he had about half a dozen shots and there wasn't one of them that could of put by You got, oh you've got a couple of days Yeah Aye, but there wasn't one of them that went in by either Aye he shouldn't, he shouldn't of been shooting, I thought I think there were cases when he should of put it forward to Saunders, even though Saunders was playing poorly Every time, er every time the broke down, the er It's academic now because they've lost and they're out of Europe and I'm not convinced, I am not convinced that they, that they are anywhere near the standard they used to be when they were last in Europe a few seasons ago Yeah, well Mike it comes down to experience if they had five years of European experience Yeah, yeah Not quite as long as Jan shall we get that I thought we'd finished them No, not quite Like one of those er dead squirrels on the end of the Yeah really bushy Have you played? One the match that you've played Yeah and there was one at Southampton I'll have to get this on tape just to prove that I beg your pardon I see a friend of yours Did you? know erm Trevor in the pub? yeah He had his leg whooped off did you know about that? Pardon? He had his leg whooped off Oh no his leg, so erm, he's been moved to Royal hospital, I went to see him yesterday and he didn't stop talking about you, bless him Ah I didn't know that, what's up with him? Well he supposed to give up smoking, it had caused clotting in one of his legs and then it just whipped over to the other one, he's had to have it cut off Oh god but erm, he's got a false one and it sounds dreadful doesn't it ? Well er He's walking round and, well he's not walking round, he's on crutches but he seems to quite nicely So how do you know him then? Oh just from the pub, same as you Oh right so erm Morning Hi Mike, so he says that I've got to say hello to you, alright Ah, bless him, what's his surname? How did you? I knew Steven, I knew Steven more than anything Why who's Steven? bloke Which one's that? The big tall one The one that wears the trilby? Yeah Yeah, oh right So, er he put me onto it, oh he said you've got to go down, he's missing you all, he's, and he'd love a bit of yeah, he was asking about you and Ah, I only said to Chris the other day, I thought god I haven't seen Trevor for ages, I honestly did and I, I didn't think you know, anything wrong with him. So he said to say hello to you Ah, bless him, I should go and see him shouldn't I? Well he's in for another two weeks Okay, cheers Nicky Pleasure You put that on at the right time Didn't I, ah, did you hear that Jan? What? You know Trevor from the pub Trevor? You know Trevor Oh Yeah, he's lost, had his leg amputated he's in the cottage hospital in Mold You go and see him? I should do really got a clot in one of his legs as it means and went down the other one and gotta take it out, through smoking what having me leg cut off where's that? Talking of which, have you What's up with you chuck? Nowt Are you a busy boy? I want I know what you can do, some of the written ones Mm? You can do some of Richard's that I'm supposed to Pardon? I've got, I've got to go and have a word with Rob about something. You never liked to do the jobs I say because they're always pooey jobs What, what is it? Calculating a percentage of heavy goods and no, I might try and get that done that's a pooey job Ah? Well the sheets are all there, as soon as I'm a bit, got me Caernarfon done and that I could do that, I could do, give us a job Not today, not really well whatever it is supposed to be no it isn't, you haven't got no intention of shaving it off What, what I'm gonna do is erm Oh you don't want to have a Robin Hood do you? just shave that bit there and no, oh no, no, please don't Or just shave me tache off Oh I hate beards like that, I dislike that No not to a point I know, but sort of none there and just all sort of down there, like sort of Brian That's no good sticking out of his head oh what's happening? When it's, when the, when everything's done and that, there's a few things that What's happening? they'll have all green, or blue and then you'll find that, but it might just pass over You know I just thought of something really stupid What've you got to do then to that thingy then sheet Jan? Er got to work through it, new and get down to mm when do you want to go through it then? If I could just erm get this done Okay but erm What? There's not a Yeah I know what you wanna say, but that yours are observation Yeah for you to take in, you know for you to look at, you've put before we for you to Scrutinize mm, more, for you to sort of consider That's the one That's the one he has his uses doesn't he? He has his uses but he's not very good at brewing up Oh that's very kind of you to don't mind if I do, don't mind if I do, fancy a brew For you to consider We don't really need these now do we? Cos we've done Good god is that the time? Yeah Doesn't time fly when you're having fun At least I've done the N T Ts, that's about all I can say, oh no, it's been quite productive hasn't it? Oh yeah Don't you think? Aye ya, feel none of it towards a survey like, productive towards a survey Jan can I leave this with you? What is it? It's what I started to do on that Oh yeah don't, don't start it I'm, some things are logged and stocked, so I'll leave it, if you wanna sling anything out once you've done yours, that's all very well Yeah, don't get rid of yet, eh please it'll have to go on the document location erm sheet B eight or something isn't it? Oh yes indeed I've just taken all the dividers out Okay I will contact Jim with regards to visits in the near future Yeah will that do? I don't have to put if you have any queries No or will I? It's eleven thirty Yeah what time do they go and lunch? Any time No they have fixed times Oh do they? Oh yes course they have Can I speak to Tony please? It's Jan from Mold Hello who am I speaking to please? Ah, right, erm Tony's organizing erm, or has organized, we're hiring a mini bus and we're using company insurance, right, now before I ask you the company that we're hiring the mini bus off, I'd like a, er a copy of the and stuff like that so I can send it off with Well some form of recognition that we have got the correct insurance for this service that we want. Next Thursday I've got to take a cheque into a, well a deposit into a my Yeah erm ninety two pound fifty with a It's what? ninety two pound fifty with a Bloody hell , there you go Cheers It's a dear day innit? yeah I asked him, I said before we go any further, can you get these with the complete package and he said no, they're all going back to the N H S typed thing because that's the look, the look people want Oh it'll be a complete change for them Yeah, I think it'll make a nice change Yeah, the others were similar, I know they were different, but He said er, he's getting me another metre all round less size round because it'll be too heavy in that size Yes, well yeah well I don't want it too much more Oh that'll be lovely Mm he never said, did, they put a nice he never said what colour did they want I mean you wouldn't put a brown one in that grey frame would you? Because it, I think it, I think these are grey, you can get green and brown Mm mm mm Mm ooh they're nice, yes can you hand me a sausage roll? they're nice yes Has anyone rung up and told me I've won a million pounds? No, pensions won the pools again this week Mm, well I'm close Mm Thanks for that love Mm Quiet ain't it? Can I have a pair of scissors, I think I'll cut you what? I was being polite Graham is boring himself in one of his car magazines Yeah I know it kills the time Did you pi buy that Hillman Minx? You could've been a real trendsetter, you could've put Ghostbuster stripes on it one of them Graham? Little furry dice and Did you listen, erm, and oh you have er City on don't you in the week? Mm I had Radio One on this morning and on the news it said that Porsche had developed a, a base to shoe horses. Had developed a what? A, a horse shoe for horses that have trouble on firm ground and it's got erm a piston, a piston type system to it Yeah the same technology that they used for their high performance car system a Lotus or something like that Mm what a little mine of information you have Oh er What I was I gonna say now just a it's so they don't damage their Mm it's good, it needed doing, it just means that they'll race what was I gonna say something to do about the racing car and then they take them a Porsche sort of horse, a Porsche horse Mm, I'll have to use me it used to go fastest because Yeah he said what's next for them go faster stripes Is there a Zodiac or a Zep? Me dad used to have a Zepper Why? Just professional, cruise up and down the street then home All the Zodiacs and Zephyrs I knew were maroon with grey down the wing Is that right? Tape is on, would of got you anyway Did you hear me say Rob, you know the old geezer from the pub, Trevor? Yeah He's in hospital, he's had his leg amputated did he have cancer or something Got a clot have gangrene? or something mm, oh I was gonna say something before, but I can't remember what it was About the car or the horse? I don't know I said something to Graham about cars and then What you said was your dad had a Zeppelin Aye, he did buy one My Lancia you thought I was selling it Yeah, I thought you'd only bought it to keep it for a year or two You like it don't you? Ah? You could sell You like it don't you? I like it Yeah I love it You couldn't sell a Lan , a Lancia to anybody who Well Don't you think so sold it, she's sold it to him wouldn't you? What you're not like it's alright, it's a bit tame for me It's only seventeen hundred? What's the word X nineteen on the Lancia it's like the family car get the tartan shopping trolley in the back of it You won't wanna drive mine then Mm You did though, didn't you? Mm, get used to yours Say is it a fuel injection or carburettor I beg your pardon? Has it got an I after it? No, yeah they don't all have that though do they? Mm You mean I think it's got a carburettor, what's a carburettor? What's the difference, how do you know? Well if it's got erm fuel injection it'll go faster Yeah, yeah God, I was nearly in an accident last night, that reminds me, coming, I'd just turned off the Wrexham road, er going along the Paisword one Mm and there's like an old pick-up-ey type thing and then there's this young lad and a, in a work's Escort van and then there was me and I thought oh bit of a blow being behind this lot, but there's not many places to overtake down there so I was No just gonna have to you know be stopped there anyway this young lad after the first fast bend he went to overtake and I could see a car coming the other way and he was like er running along side this pick-up but it was like he couldn't drop back and he couldn't make it either Mm so he just kept going, so the pick-up jammed its anchors on, there was a Rover it was coming the other way, the Rover went up the verge Oh my god and the aargh, just squeezed in and this lad sort of shit himself completely and went zoom right up the road then, well I knew what was gonna happen so I dropped right back and er how he missed him I don't know, it must of been inches or itches I bet the lad in the car just adrenalin was brown at that particularly moment That's the way I tell them, do I tell these, that joke I told you before? Yeah This is me brother's joke and I, I lay no claims to this one A guy comes home from work Sorry Have you got a copy of that that you have? Er, yeah, well it needs photocopying Well can I borrow it then, take a copy? Yeah, this guy comes home from work and his wife's got the chair and she's picking it up and taking it around like this Can you speak up a bit please? and he said what are you doing? She says I'm trying to increase me bust, he says put it down he says all you need is a couple of pieces of toilet tissue and rub it between the gap and there you go, she says well how do you work that out? He says well it's worked on your arse hasn't it? Rob you never remember those jokes off your brother There's some that I can't tell though Rob, course you can Tell us the other one then No way, I think I'd be even embarrassed telling you You never even, you never told me about the one I haven't told you your mum told you I'm not going to It's usually the parents not wanting to repeat a joke to the daughters not the other way around Ah, are you still stuffing yourself? Excuse me, I didn't come and goggle what you was eating The difference is he doesn't need to do that to get it all in one go Can I borrow that erm football thing there? It hasn't got the answers on it? It's the separate sheet the answers Mm, well, mm, mm, mm Mm let's have a scone Let's have another tasty apple Fastest, fastest cake in the kitchen that you know Scone That man can mumble He certainly can your off on Monday, are you? Monday and Tuesday Going anywhere? Thought you were off tomorrow I'm having a five day weekend So you are off tomorrow aren't you? Can we, are we gonna let him? Mm We gonna let him have the day off? Why er why? Well we were gonna go to the pub and celebrate my three year anniversary of suffering this department. Ah what a bore I can't even get back What three years in the department or pardon? Which one's the bloke? No, I just was gonna go out and commiserate with you all for putting up with me for that long, well with you lot I don't know Some longer than others, I never forget the first day in Liverpool, I was a wasn't I? Mm He didn't introduce us did he? Right that's it get on with it yeah, creepy little sod and have Dave, Dave show me three times how to do a five bar gate How's he gone? Well you go one, two, three, four, five , I'll just show you that again to rei , reiterate the button, one, two That's what you can do on your day off What practise five bars then No develop one of those things on yes A what, a what the football quiz Oh yeah you've got to do it in four minutes Ha, that's called premature isn't it four minutes The four minute mile what about our Fergie and our Andrew then? Well it was on the radio, this, ah, the other day and the woman saying he's such a nice guy I don't know what could of gone wrong, she doesn't know him Can I speak to Roger does she? Not really members of the team or something when they got married, like you know Well she will make a good team, she slept with ten other men apart from him that's okay Are Di and Charles supposed to be yeah talking to the flowers I know see that building over there, just go, yes terrible isn't it? mm, could just drink a nice cup of tea Yeah that'll be nice at the are we gonna sort out how many we've got? And you've got to have don't know He's talking about promotions and a new edition of the project engineering and he says I'll have to check with it'll be nice well we can count the panelling that we've got left over there, how many do we use a day? To be honest I can't remember, I know my lot on the last thing Wigan was doing two hundred and thirty an hour, so twelve times twenty, two hundred and thirty If we allow two hundred Well thanks a lot Bill, bye interviews Mm, two and a half thousand then an hour that's a box that's only a hundred interview forms an hour isn't it? Of course, yeah, because there's two on a sheet And that's allowing for spares as well, cos my sites aren't gonna be busy enough to do that, that many anyway I wouldn't of thought, so what you doing twelve hundred a day? Mhm, it's, isn't there two and a half in a box? Is it? I don't know Have we got one over there? So that's three thousand six hundred so if I add four thousand, three and a half to four thousand Mm, mm I'd be well in the clear then two, there's two and a half nine and a half boxes over here And how many's in a box? There's no lid on it so I can't tell Oh erm Is there no lids on them at all? No so there's two and a half thousand so there's five thousand interviews we could do five thousand interviews with that? Hang on there's gotta be something wrong there, that means I'm only gonna need a box at the most, doesn't it, hang on, let's write it out Start at the very beginning, there's two and a half thousand That's allowed , the maximum that we could do is two hundred interviews an hour Yeah okay would you agree with that? which is a hundred forms Would you agree? Mm, mm Two hundred interviews per hour, equals one hundred interview sheets there's been some very good cases of sexual harassment lately and Mm they're getting millions in compensation Check the information with you erm, so I don't even know what they are er I'm not sure if I didn't You know when people talk about you and they don't actually ask you they just mention things and hated Is anybody talking about me? so that's Sorry, right two thousand for Excuse me Yes mate did I ask you to bring no only the red boxes, I thought they were already done Only the red boxes, what, what were the red boxes? Well, erm which I've sorted this morning right have you sorted them, right, so you've done, what are these things? Don't know with them Don't know what Scott's already archived but why they weren't put in boxes away somewhere I've no idea These meant to be archived are they? Well or at least sorted, maybe they're the ones that was supposed to be left out for future reference. I thought they'd already been done I, produced a list of what's already inside here, er, these calculate are the files registered, they're not numbered so they wouldn't be registered, but they would surely So Rob's instruction was that he put them in those files and I didn't think it was a particularly good idea because everything's easier to find if it's in the envelopes that we've put them in. Now here, he's put down the interview date that was here, yeah he was starting to transfer the interview days across and I This is er I stopped him, I said don't do that leave them in the envelopes and mark them as they are, so what We, actually I think we stopped him doing that because we put information on the envelopes as well which he didn't see Yeah we divided them all up, but if me or Jan needed to refer to anything we'd recognize the information that we've put on the envelopes quicker than we'll recognize the stuff that he's put in there We realized too late anyway before we Is he, did, he's labelled this wrong anyway, he's called this interviewed date for data fifty three, but it isn't interview data, it's count data oh Wigan do you If you put it with that pile of envelopes Mike can you sort that out cos that is Wigan and if you leave them in the pile fair enough and I think they can go to archive, but please can you re-title the contents page and the pages cos they're not interview data it's count data, er I would of thought by now Scott knew the difference between interview and account Why he's never done an interview Well to be fair you're right, but I would of thought someone Well he told me he'd gone for a count sorry He said he'd gone for a count for a job Oh it's a good job we've got one wit in the team, I wonder where he is? Posy, er right where are we? Two hundred interview per hour equals four hundred and three sheets three thousand Sixty three, seventy nine That's it no See again, he could of put some dates in so, I, this needs proper registering Yeah been on file well I've got another file that needs proper registering yeah, but again I should just get some of these checked, every content, you know that the heading Mm it, they look it hasn't done interviews unfortunately Right okay No, no, no, we only need a hundred sheets an hour Hello mm, mm and there's twelve hours so we'll only need a thousand and two hundred Mm, mm Which one is it? so call it half a box Mm, mm Wilf telephone call, Wilf telephone So I need one and a half boxes Mm, mm for, I'm gonna have them all in the boot of the car, at all times, so I'm gonna have two boxes please Mm, mm two boxes, er that's er ten whole boxes six thousand so right now you'll have so what did we just say for you? You need six thousands do you? Yeah divided by I'm not even sure, we don't even know his name so let's give you three Well my understand of control is is one at control that you can call back in or destroyed and be replaced by so the control copy should always be and I want two boxes we've already got four and a half boxes It's a very loose definition and one which so let's order two for us and that'll give us five and a half, six and a half boxes another half box spare but I mean there's spares in them anyway yeah but we never actually said anything to control, we only say what's wrong with the job and why, why people suddenly started saying we've got to go around marking what we should be doing is marking control, control Or doing nothing or doing nothing and say nothing to control Yeah we could possibly there's no guarantee which there can't be can there, and say it gets lost in the post then you're not gonna have it updated No no and automatically assumed that, if it's important even, even within our own little team No I'm sure your mum and dad will not find that and we should have systems whereby if you were what's more I'm convinced it and you can guarantee that you still a human error even though you know how to do it, and we cannot guarantee that you'll do it so it, so it is, the, it is very important that nobody takes anything off the shelf automatically assume Mind you no point in It does matter we really need to know whether to make necessary phone calls Right I'll make a note of yours I've put yours on separate sheet, have you seen it? The return return actually interview if I do effect all the Well you're all gonna have some with your timesheets You go and see Will then before we think about ordering it then No, I said we'll go round and tell, tell him what we've just worked out there, get him to say yes Yes and then you can give okay yes How many? Ask Tracey how, whether they order them by the box or whatever Where, does Tracey yeah Oh I thought if Tracey can get them it might be more reliable to get them from Tracey. Could you do me a favour? About the interview forms, what you want yeah No Could you down there? Which one? No do a couple please if you don't mind, because you might need a couple spare Hello can I speak to Bob please Have you used these things now Richard? Yes thank you no, why you volunteering? yeah You, you tell Bill what Well I don't, I don't really understand myself what it wants, so I'm not in a position to Erm, is that three eight one five oh no, no sorry that's the wrong extension, er have you any idea if anyone can get to alright, thank you er, no I'll come back shortly, what extension should I ask for first of all? Three eight double one, okay thank you very much, bye goes away, everything according to plan Why where is he? He's at Halford today and then he goes on his holidays for a bit Oh great Well he's off tomorrow anyway Don't we get a stand in? and now we're short of paper No, what the green stuff? No, there's nothing downstairs, well Steve said he had the lot, the last box Oh good god, it's about time they got their arses in gear and started doing something properly Yeah Yeah, there really is no excuse is there? I get I ge to be honest though erm half the problem's been I think that it's been spoiling off so much crap, you know when I was doing those little things no wonder we're going through such a lot of paper Yeah if it's doing that for everyone and there's a mountain of scrap paper in there It's the way you speak to pardon? It's the way you speak to it what the printer, oh don't you make me feel guilty, no I it's just stupid isn't it? It is how many pages you getting? I was having about four pages, three pages before, four pages in between each one, and another at the end as well At least I've cracked it I think I can get it to actually page properly until Vicky comes on Mm Remember that report the Oh you are kidding So er, yeah, it comes out tonight Alright then Yeah she's gonna fax me the advert up tomorrow, she's gonna buy it today erm just rung Grant up to see, I was gonna ask Jo to go out and buy a paper That's how they come then. Oh, I quite like those, dinky doo is that, is that all of them? Well, there's fifty two in there, that should be enough shouldn't it? I would of thought so yeah, oh you're doing alright then There's more in the cupboard if you want yeah, great, thanks for these, er yeah so I just rung, I was gonna get Jo to go out and get a, buy a paper Yeah because we've had no bloody calls have we, but it's like our Chronicle around here, it comes out tonight Oh yeah but, it'll be tomorrow when people are You are in tomorrow aren't you? No I'm not actually Nor am I, it's I've put these Oh I phoned Jan yeah, they're alright aren't they? Would you like to say two words Bab? I don't think er, they'd be very practical really to wear them packy bags would they? Erm Be a bit revealing wouldn't you think? shake your little on the cat walk as it were Right, did you ask Rob about the interviews on oh right What's the new one called? Dee, dee, do, do, da, da, or something no they've got another one now are getting with it? No, Graham, Graham, you know all about the M sixty three surveys don't you? right tell us about the M sixty three's surveys sweetheart, how many roadside interviews do you think we're gonna have to do? How many roadside interview sheets do you think we're going to need to order? How many other traffic cones ooh he's a little gem, he's gonna tell us all we need to know, but were too afraid to ask No Ah come on We've got only three data collection sites, haven't got more than that So what's that? What erm, what you calling a data collection site? Er a count or That I think is just counts Okay cos at the time this report was put together erm And very well I may say so Yes yes, it's, it's not bad Who did this, was it Martin? at all actually Is, is that the one I did now you do surprise me. Er moving swiftly along Yeah Oh yeah we didn't know we were doing interviews at this stage This is quite true but we do now yes Aye, Rob said there was about fifteen accounts out Yeah, what are all it might be I've got eleven My gosh, my life, sort of died and I thought there was more than that The blue and the pink are general timetable are they? No hang on, no, no, no, no No that's just the erm the blue is the cord on the cord is the cord on blue don't let that monkey anywhere near it, it'll rip it to pieces the pink is the gem card No that's the pink isn't it? Yeah that's along the road some of the blue is along the railway line Yeah and we could take the journey time or we could take the wheels of the tyres off We could have one of those things like in Saint Trinian's can't we? I've got it, I've got the laugh on record I thought you'd be you'd be rewinding that, if Mike had a listen to that oh dear Pure bliss it's got account on it Why what else do you want to know? Three, nine, three Graham coughed at three, nine, three on the counter I laughed Yes sorry laughed Right You know the two way interviews, I don't know if they're gonna be simultaneous No you can't do that, they ought to be on two separate days because people not Yeah go home the same day yeah that's right, I mean the D B T say there's gonna be extra difficulty because, but I don't think they realize that people are gonna say I'm not going that way because Balls to that, yeah you know you might you might catch the same person twice they've got to be on separate days they'll be well pissed off Well, you will well annoyed if they're using it to get to Which work and back which junction are we thinking of interviewing that I dunno, but the widening between six and nine Six and nine Stop sprawling yourself there, ah we're recording I'm enjoying myself we're recording for prosperity again are we? Oh, there's a word we haven't Prosperity used before it's one I've never heard of prosperity Which is south number? You're nosey aren't you? Yeah Fifteen, O seven Will before you disappear Quick question , we've just been doing What does prosperity mean? No a cross between a prostrate gland and Peter telephone call, Peter telephone. of economic wellbeing Right We've done a quick calculation of interview sheets that we think we, we need, I need two boxes for Caernarfon, Jan needs three, we've got four and a half boxes already, we were gonna order two just to be on the same safe, but we're just looking into erm whether we need, how many we need on the R S I's on the M sixty three cos we might as well order them all together, save won't they have sixty Can you go back and said what you said when the tape was switched on? Listen Yes so you definitely want my bilingual now Yes, well we decided that if they were bilingual they could still be used in there's no need to because we've got There's plenty left over I know but if we print bilingual ones Mm and we don't use them all up, they can be used can be used elsewhere anywhere Yeah elsewhere, okay that's right I'll go for that it won't be, it won't be wasted No, okay, well I'll sort that out with Kath then, so if I order two boxes of You're gonna show me these things before you get Kath to print them aren't you? Oh god, yeah. Mm Okay So we worked out the maximum we're gonna do is probably two hundred interviews an hour, that's really over estimating Mm yeah that's the limit that, that's the most we ever did in Wigan wasn't it? No it was two hundred and thirty Oh was it? Yeah, but that was just on well I think, I mean all we only, I don't think we've got to two hundred on any other. So we've said that, so that's a hundred interview sheets twelve hours in a day usually, unless your name's Billy, twelve hours in a, half a day, should of said, so that's twelve hundred times two two thousand four hundred so that's half a box, call it two and a half thousand Five thousand in a box, no, oh I see let's half a box, yeah that's right so you want two boxes? Yeah Yeah, well that's fi , that's gonna be plenty isn't it? And we've got four and a half already Yeah so I just want two boxes of bilinguals So so we've got three now, so we got, sorry we've got four and a half We've got four and a half yeah so if we get two, we've got six and a half? Yeah, correct And we need two, three, four, five We only need five six, seven including him Well depending on how many of them, we haven't Oh right, no, you said to order for Leek and Caernarfon Oh beg your pardon, right, sorry okay, alright, Well so if you just go for the two you're a fleet driver aren't you Will? Fleet driver? You've got a company car? Yes Do you have your fleet insurance put on I might Because I need to photocopy it to send to yeah, I think it's either in my briefcase, or it's in the car, but it's probably in the briefcase, I'll go and have a look Okay, so tomorrow erm I will do you a mock up for a, a bilingual one Yeah great okay Tell me why isn't that phone hot? Why? Well weren't you expecting phone calls today? I've just rung up to see, I was gonna ask Jo to nip out and get me a cake and see if the advert was in, but it do it doesn't actually come out, it's like the local Chronicle here, it comes out on a Thursday night Ah, right, so it hits the shops tomorrow so I'm off tomorrow so I'll tell to put them all through to you, is that okay? Just gonna go and fill in a ha You can have a look in insurance now, I'll be grateful Super I do think I push me luck a little bit oh he's alright Mine's not printing Why not printing? Suddenly decided not to page properly No unless It suddenly says hang on, I'm not wasting enough paper, let's shove a few blanks through, fires more blanks than the T A that thing. No it means someone's stopped a program, stopped a printout half way through and it doesn't clear the page in Oh is it spilling, spilling off is it? Mm, well no, I mean this morning this one came out nice Yeah I've spent ages getting it so that it would er, you know, right Yeah and now page number is sort of out there Something, something happens when people send a different program through and they don't reset it I've tried resetting it and it didn't work No I mean stop the printout and recall, reprint out and set it up Hello Scooby's phone on the computer no, no, no, no he's not over there, I mean put it back through to her's, he's on the computer yeah, yeah, did you want the spiral binder before? No it'll wait No it'll wait he says, well it's down here now Tell, thank him very much for telling him Tell you thank you very much for telling him. Confused, you will be you thought it was a co , important call as well didn't you? It was Kate When Scott due back? I don't know he's got twelve days leave to use up yet I think they should of given Darren in his place to do all this instead of making us do it, or they should of got a school leaver Oh I don't mind cos I'm getting paid overtime Yeah that's right. Get a school-ey, get a school-ey in I wouldn't mind a school-ey a couple of months ago Oh, he was atrocious, what was his name? Steven was his name? No Yes it is Was it Steven? Yeah he looked like He was a randy sod yeah Right but even uglier I want, there's a lab in er Is it men behaving badly? With what's his face then, Harry Yes er, there was a lad in a sketch with him, we saw the trailer and he looked like an older version of Macouly Maulkin, or whatever his name is, what's his name? Macouly Katkin I say Macaukin is right Macaukin, Macouly Macaukin Mm, mm Sounds like you're saying you caught me sulking or something like that no have you not seen it, he was in Inspector Morse as well. Oh He was one of the posh yeah with the, yes, he was With blonde hair And big jug ears Yeah, I think he looks like Macouly He was murdered last Yeah he should of been murdered first he was awful Aye he was getting on me wick U G L Y you ain't got no alibi He's in something else isn't he? He was on last night wasn't he in something else? I think he was I can't remember seeing him Yeah you did out of so many programmes last week Yeah and I shouted Mike, I said quick it's him It's him, da, da, da, Cannonball Run No I didn't see The Bill Did you see a, the holiday programme when they picked the winner of that holiday the serves her right I was cringing serves her right It was excellent What's this? rung this person up live to say they've won this holiday for six at erm what, what is it Mecca Island or? not Mecca, but Mecca or something He's had a lot of entrance as well, I mean, you know a lot of people were away, you know, like something one in and Yeah and Annika Rice gets on the phone and first of all she thought oh, oh, I don't think there's gonna be an answer, I, I don't think there's gonna be anyone in, why aren't they watching us, why aren't they watching Bet they're watching erm Emmerdale Farm So then this fellow comes to the phone, obviously his missus had entered it and he didn't have a bloody clue that she'd gone in for it and he'd just come home from work and er Annika Rice there, saying oh where is she? Why isn't she watching the programme? Well actually she's gone to visit her mum, she's had a heart attack she's in hospital oh, oh well this'll be a lovely surprise for her then I don't you Does she, does she ring people live yeah, yeah And she said er are you Mr or whatever the name was? And when she put the phone down at the end she said that was, that was yeah so er, that was, that was and she said er well that seems a nice holiday for Mr and Miss or Mrs Yeah why do you think she said that? I mean it wouldn't be Mr and Miss if they were both Well that'd be brother and sister Exactly if they were, you know Yeah, she fair, fair like she er nearly cut them up didn't she? The trouble was she was talking to people on camera and you didn't hear anyone laughing or anything embarrassing. Mind you I'd get myself embarrassed in front of sixty million viewers if I was on her money Yeah, but would you wear those awful pratty outfits? We were having a conversation weren't we Graham? He's been looking at that erm inspiration hasn't, do you know I bet it would if he made a cup of tea why wasn't I won't do it if it's hinted on You won't do it full stop How do you ooh I made a drink, what about bring it up then? Oh we're so basic stop it, you beat me to it I was Oh I have to agree with that I've been watching Don't tell us your secrets Graham we don't deserve to know them, oh go on then so these are only your R S I dates aren't they? What are? Seventh twelfth, fourteenth, nineteenth, twenty third Yeah Gina's asking when they're gonna clash with erm Yeah yours Well when you get a chance I'll have the accounts as well The accounts are the twenty eighth twenty nine, thirtieth and the second Of April? Yeah and the second and the fourth of June Second and fourth of June? Yeah Er what happened, why aren't you doing any in May? Oh because of the bank holidays and the Yeah interviews and according Have we got M E 2, part of the no This, it's a bolt on is it? what, not a five hundred or something? No, it's quite expensive Darren contact admin please, Darren contact admin I will contact you in the near future in respect of the is that what I had? No Doesn't sound as good does it as what I had before? Why what you done with the other one? I rubbed it out I I think, you did have the word respect in it In respect of the no, er of making a site visit wasn't it? This is end of proposed sites Yeah this is to the sites the above locations the above locations say again The above site locations Yes Yeah, one thousand two hundred and fifty same as Erm, are we any nearer the truth? No, what about? Whether you visit no, whether, what we were talking about before? R S Is on the M sixty three Yeah No we no need are we likely to just have ten? Two Two R S Is Oh I don't know about that but I think they're likely on the same it's just that there's a sense of blah, blah, blah, recommended that interview have been in both directions despite in this difficult across, and I couldn't say when you could do that at midday, but the implication is you have to do it when you Hello son, had your did you leave everything? Did he take the car? Was he alright? How are you feeling now? What did she bring you for your razor blades? I don't think you can Graham I don't think it's I think it , well I think it I don't think you'll get a erm You won't get the number of ten Good stuff, good stuff erm You'll probably go get the just got really unsafe unless the two sites are like half a mile, well at least half a mile if not, but I hand signal When you say in two direction, I mean we there's no way they let you interview on the main line Erm we switch you on five Yeah so we're talking slip roads and you know how to test for right, I don't think you'll get a free representation of the traffic flow erm if you do road to yeah I mean look, and even so I mean depending on where it's gonna be Yeah If you've got signs on the main line saying traffic point, traffic censors ahead, you're gonna have people saying oh sod that I'll get off at the next junction instead Yeah wouldn't you, I don't know how you'll get round it Alright, I'll phone you a bit later on before I leave, okay. Wouldn't you Jan? What's that? Like, this is that from the D T P that? That is, yeah That is saying that erm despite the additional costs yeah we want it done in both directions, there's no way you can do it on the main line No so you're talking slip roads Yeah er Graham seems to think they're hinting that they should be done on the same day No way, I said before you can't do that Well no because the safe, the safety aspect of it and I don't think you'll get a true representation of the traffic flows if you did it both together cos like you say people will be diverting Mm Yeah, if they're delayed getting on the motorway and see that they're doing it the other side coming off, they might be saying and go up Yeah, but to the next junction and get off one , M sixty three six to nine this is, isn't it? Mm So junction six is that the big mass oh no junction seven Junctions five and six Oh junction six is the collector distributor so we can't do anything on that No Junction seven is the big A fifty six, where we did the big count Yeah and junction eight is that little eight is the roundabout Yeah, so where you gonna go now? and junction nine is the one where you come off and go to Ernston that way Mm which is not a very, but what I'm saying to Graham is if we do it on a slip road like, cos, cos I've never done one before, if you, you'd have to have warning signs if you got a census on the slip coming off people are gonna say oh well I'll get off at the next one That's what I said to you Unless they're gonna do them on the roads there's the motorway, that's Manchester, unless they're gonna do them on the roads Around Yeah yeah well going in er, I'll go for that one because you'll be able to pick up M sixty three using the non M sixty three uses that one Yeah, I'll go for that Yeah but then you've got the two directional aspect and like the cyclones either side of the road, they can't be opposite each other, it's No the states, they've got to be accurate, they've got to be at least half a mile apart yeah but if they, if they were on slips they wouldn't be opposite anyway, would they? You can't mess about Well you know you could do one at the slip Yeah, there wouldn't be Oh no, no You've got to do one on the slip off and one on the slip on, at the same part Yeah Having not done one I wouldn't know how they go about it even No I know it has been done, but when, For Ormskirk we wanted, we were looking to interview at the end of the M fifty eight Yeah and erm, about a hundred, most of it was under Manchester Oh for Ormskirk as well Yeah, and the others, the last hundred metres was under Lancashire's domain, and Lancashire wouldn't hear of it, even though, I mean, that was on an approach to a roundabout Yes isn't it, er the junction there, and there was all erm deceleration lines and that across the road, they were slowing down anyway and we were gonna really narrow the cones and they were approaching a roundabout so I Yeah mean they had to stop eventually, but they wouldn't buy it at all, no way Same as didn't think they'd accept that the two different police forces, one said yes the other said no, but then they stood Yeah, one was from Delmonte Road wasn't it? That's the one, he's the one who said no they're not Yeah he was on the other end of the Do you really think that the Jolly Green Giant puts the lights on at two o'clock in the morning and gets them all to pick the corn? Yeah, why do you think it's a lie? Well I used to believe that but me mum said they don't really do that, and that was one of my great illusions completely shattered You destroyed my dreams , my dreams are destroyed I was dead upset I can't get upset about that no, cos I yes yeah, that's what I thought and, but if that wasn't bad enough, my mum because she knows these things, even said that he doesn't even say ho, ho, ho, Green Giant, doesn't, they don't even sing that song when they're working they couldn't sing, and you know the little corn on the cob man A bit like yeah, no I think we'll have to liaise with Rob a bit on that Just the ten? Just the ten? Yep Yeah Shall I throw that away then? Don't let's throw your words away Just let me get the Green Giant ho, ho, ho Is that right? Oh right erm to be honest I don't, the guy who set all that up has moved company, I'm just taking over the, the care of them really, unless erm Mr said anything, erm erm, yes if you would, er just hang on a minute, erm he's got someone in and he's busy and not to be disturbed Right Mr , hello I've had a quick word with Mike and he seems to think there's some correspondence on the file, I'll have to go and find the file and get back to you, so, er you, I haven't got your, your phone number there I don't think, er I only had your fax number right, I'll get back as soon as I can, thank you bye bye. Mr has just phoned about all this work and as, he's saying and he wanted to speak to Mike and I said I'll go and check it Right do you want a drink? Yes please Teasy-weasy? Whoopy-whoopy erm what do you want coffee? I think I'll have a chocolate actually Would you? er, oh, are you busy? Busy Yeah brewing No, I'm, I'm not you see so I can do it if you're busy Oh that's very nice of you to offer. no bring it up as scheduled Oh that was a very dirty look you gave me then young man. It wasn't was it? It was, you went Have you put that on? She's lying So it's on? words like drat and damn Of course it is What are you doing over your five days of weekend Graham? I'm going to Manchester shopping tomorrow Are you? With erm with my with my girlfriend What's her name? Lorna Lorna This is still not the ex Ah It is a newy No, they're back together, he's normal Oh so it's the It's an oldie who disappeared and then came back She is back in his world, ah but no so, ex girlfriend No shot her dad Shot her father, yeah Has he accepted it? He, you know that bloke who you said you were on the phone to in Liverpool and he's got , yeah Yeah, I thought it sounds like this Liam Liam Liam it's her dad Mm I mean, she, she and me as well, oh Ooh Graham ooh I can't believe it What's his argument now? I treated her rotten whilst I was studying like I wouldn't take time off studying to go and see her or phone her when I saw her as often as I could, every weekend Like what? I drove back and saw them Without having a detrimental effect on the studying, you did what you could I fitted them, I fitted the studying in and more and he said oh fair enough Some people are born that way The things I have to do It's wicked, so what you gonna buy her tomorrow then? What, nothing Ooh, that speaks for news doesn't it? Mm lunch You're not going round jewellery shops or anything are you? No, no, no, no, nothing, nothing like that Telephone shops, you can get her a ring in there Sorry No we're not no that news is full of crap anyway, he said so himself Yeah You mean it's a shit shop? A shit shop I don't believe you sometimes It is, it is working No, no, nothing special like that No, just a pleasant day Yeah you hope in the rain and Oh no, if it's anything like today, which it probably will be, it will be nice. Will you stop doing that please? Teddy's going to vomit if he don't stop I mean if I start doing that Yeah I figure it's got to go across from one side to another I bet they would as well ooh, er ooh, er you Richard Where's my letter coming in? No, have ring Mr tomorrow, confirm, confirm, affirmative Confirm the events confirmative, pardon? Events, relevance Relevant Ants relevant, no, no, look ant ant it is now Mm I think you looked that up the other day I think I've already put ring Mr , yes, stupid boy Mike said I've got to put a note on the fax say P S you, the charges And is he kidding? It's going on it Don't he told me to put it on it He told you to say it, but he had a shock when he well he told me to say it Don't But he told me to put it on I don't think he's serious Jan He was serious, it's his get out from telling you to say that in the first place And he means to do it as a joke does he? Yes I still wouldn't do it. Who's it to? Do you know who's it going to? What? You have got to put it. He was joking No the other one don't phone me again Just put don't fucking that's dirt enough as per your telephone conversation today's date please find attached copies of Is it double M, double T and double E in committee? I hope this will be of assistance Hang on, double M, double T and double E Not in that order Exactly Have you seen that little worm? I knew that would take me longer Sorry on the, near the printer there's a screen near the table or something, it's got this little orange thing that keeps doing this You've lost me completely and that doesn't take much I'm sure. Mm, this little worm Graham will you show me your, your chinese worm please? Hello there, hey I've come to see Mr Trevor , is it alright to pop in and see him? Yes, yes Mm I'll have to wake him now anyway for his supper so Are you sure? Yeah, Trev Mm Hello Hello you've got a visitor Guess who's come to see you? Who? I think he'll be needing his glasses I think he will, he won't remember me I don't think either Ten past five Yes How are you Trevor? Oh it's Martine, hello darling Who, he said, mm Ah How are you? Alright Good I've only found out today about you No I've had me spies out you see Nicky Nicky was here yesterday Well that's who's told me, I didn't know anything about it Yeah not a thing Oh aye and she said oh, she said I've been to see a friend I can't write to you any more, that's the trouble I know, it's a blow isn't it? It is, oh well, there we are Never mind, she said to me this morning, she said I've been to see a friend of yours, I said well who's that? Oh she said Trevor, I said why, where is he? Oh he's in hospital, I didn't know a thing about it, I've been saying when we've been to the Pentam, we haven't seen Trevor for a while, we haven't seen Trevor, and even Barry at the Pentam didn't tell me, he thought I knew Did he? Yes, and every time I go in there, I say well what you know Barry and he didn't tell me that, he thought I already knew Well, well, well Terrible show, ah? Oh terrible show Yeah Ah, thank you darling Card for you there Thank you I'd of bought you some grapes only I'd of probably eaten them myself Well that's very nice you did yourself more bloody well this is it, you've got a good stock up anyway there Oh yeah, yeah, yeah Good stuff Oh keep well, I, I seen your straight in the wheelchair Oh out in the, you know in the precinct Yeah I looked up the window and no, no Martine there No I wasn't there to wave to you, I thought Oh dear I wasn't there to give you a wave I'm afraid No, no you weren't no, no you weren't anywhere Not to worry , no working hard probably Ah shame These are nice isn't he? Ah, that's lovely that Martine and who Mike, me husband Oh your husband Yeah oh aye tell him I appreciate this very much will you? I will do , I will do Thank him so much, so much, well that's lovely, that's lovely. I thought I better call and see how you were doing Sorry I thought I better call and see how you were doing, now we know Ah lovely so there we go What's it like Marty? It's not bad, it's dry Is it? Yeah, so, it hasn't been a bad day, it's been quite nice Sorry? it's been quite a nice day really Has it? if I hadn't been stuck in the office all day, if I could of been out and about somewhere it would of been even nicer Be nice yeah, yeah, yeah, you been to the Pentam today? so, still it's nearly the weekend , pardon? Have you been to the Pentam today? I called in, yeah because I said to Barry I said here I said you di , you hadn't told me about our Trevor Yeah Oh he said I thought you knew Oh he didn't bother but er, he doesn't tell me anything, he doesn't tell me the gossip Doesn't he? No Do you ever see Steve? No, I haven't done for a while see I You might of thought to ask him if I'd of seen him, but you know the lad I go in there with Chris? Aye Well I said to him only last week, I said wonder where Trevor is these days, haven't seem to see him in here, but er Well I'm gonna come out, I said er, I'm going to, I'm gonna get well, I've given myself a fortnight this weekend Yeah to get, to get mobile, to get going again Yes has been, anyway, and er after that I'm going, I'm going on the oh that'll be nice Well I'll be near my daughter Well that's right and er, they've found me a very, very nice residential home Oh lovely it's only twelve people in it altogether, beautiful Gorgeous you know, it's like a big family isn't it? Yeah, ah that's nice And er the bedroom they've given me I can see out through the window so I Lovely oh tut smashing Oh that's alright isn't it? But before I go I said to the today, there's a fellow there, I don't know whether you knew, whether you know him, he's on the, he's on the oil rigs he gets a Mm fortnight off and a fortnight on No and he's got er rather curly hair and he comes into the Pentam No, I might know him by sight, but er I can't think of him Aye, right, I met him in the , in the, what's the name of that sweet shop, Martin and somebody Oh 's, yeah Yeah and er, I said to Jane now I said now look before I go to Preston, I want to go in the pub I must to go to the pub and see Well yes must see the boys and girls in the pub before I go in now that's it so I'm coming in Oh good I don't know whether it's this next week it depends on her when Yeah by the time she comes, because to get there she's gotta come, so that, she can get me there Well that's it exactly about lunch time you know Yeah get me in there for about one o'clock or something like that you know Smashing, oh that'll be nice Oh, er I'll buy you a beer then Aha, ha I'm not worried about that I'm worried about oh the beer here is yeah ooh, you shouldn't be telling me all this They're looking after you well by the look of it Oh they're looking after me alright, smashing the menu here is lovely Is there? Oh very, very good Ooh I might come for me tea tomorrow then Ee, ee you do that dear I won't have to do any washing up at home then No you won't do Oh dear Of course there's, there's a, a very good er a very good menu to have er lamb and mint sauce and you know Good god or beef and Yorkshire pud Yeah oh, or pork Living it up then you are Oh aye, have to be careful you see bet I'm not much heavier than you now No I'm only nine stone thirteen Ooh so, you're not much more than that No, not quite you're not like it then? Not quite I got to make eight stone Mm, just over Well anyway I, I be no you've got to be very careful haven't you? When they, when they weighed me I thought I had to have my leg off, I went to the centre and she'd weighed me and she said nine stone seven, I said what? Mm Have we got any erm, oh I use nine stone seven, I said what you talking about nine stone seven, I'm eleven and a half stone, not now you're not she said I said what Well that's it and the trauma of it all Yeah taken the weight off me Yeah so, that was that, so anyway a fortnight ago I suppose Yeah and I was ten stone two Ooh and he said, now you've got a rupture Yeah, you've got to be careful haven't you? If you put more than half a stone on Yeah it means that your leg's gotta go and it's gotta go on the leg and all this ulcer Mm so yes yesterday I was delighted I was only nine stone thirteen, so Good I was delighted yesterday You keep being careful and you'll be alright won't you? Well aye, you have when you like things isn't it? Well that's it I like things you know Well that's it Oh it's nice when you can enjoy your food isn't it? Oh well aye, I like it yes I like a good meal, and I'm afraid I like I use, I, I, even the girls on chocolate stuff and all that, people say, I'm trying to cut it out though Well yeah so I give it these girls, them, let them have the worry mm Safer isn't it? Oh dear me Oh my Irene she comes to see me we're terrible us girls and what, what with Easter coming up, we'll be eating all these Easter eggs as well won't we? Pardon? And what with Easter coming up as well we'll be eating all these Easter eggs and That's right, that's right yeah, yeah, yeah we'll be big fat things When is Easter love? Er, I think it's the, the twentieth isn't it Easter Monday? Is it? I think so Twentieth of April Yeah, that's Easter Monday, I think that's right anyway Well then I'll be in the nursing home Yeah, you'll be nice, you'll be close to your family there won't you? Yeah Your daughter and that I won't see the one, the one from Scotland I won't see No, it's a hell of a long way to a long way isn't it? But erm Jane and her husband have gone to gone, gone to Scotland today Have they? er, he's, he's gonna have a day's fishing with Bev tomorrow or Saturday Lovely tomorrow's Friday isn't it? Yeah, all day Oh they're not going until tomorrow, I said today but they're going tomorrow Right Yeah Jane is working today so they'll be off tomorrow Oh that'll be a nice break evening and they'll be off to Glasgow for the weekend Oh lovely They'll leave the two kids at home you see, they get well this is it, this is it, be a nice break for them won't it? Oh lovely, yes, yes Be smashing Oh yeah Very good, right Barry's alright is he? Oh yes Is he still keeping everybody in order? Yes, still doing well Is he? still got his nice car What's he got? He's got a Porsche now hasn't he? Someone told me he got a Porsche Yeah it's lovely, some money's worth there, I think me and you have paid for that car We have yeah that's true enough, that's true enough Oh Well he's not too bad is he? is he? No He keeps his prices down very well Yeah, he hasn't put them up since the budget Oh they've stopped the same I don't think, well I don't I don't think he'll go over the top with it No, he'll not, I think he's one of the cheapest in Mold anyway isn't he? Yes he is isn't he? Well he was anyway Yeah well he hasn't altered them Oh no We were trying to get him to do, it was Saint Patrick's day wasn't it on Tuesday? Was it? Yeah, we were trying to get er get him to do Guinness fifty P a pint, but he wouldn't hear of it It wasn't we were trying to get him to sell the Guinness fifty P a pint because it was Saint Patrick's day He wouldn't have it though? No, he wouldn't, wasn't having it at all Was he not No I'm afraid not Oh dear but it was worth a try wasn't it? Oh absolutely Oh yeah, yeah, are you busy these days? Yeah, keeping myself busy I've got a lot of surveys coming up in Caernarfon of all places You're not going to Caernarfon? I am, yes Oh, you going there to stay? Well I'll be staying over there some of the time, but then I'll be travelling every day Will you? Yeah, it takes Motoring every day Yeah, it takes an hour and a quarter it takes to get there It will to Caernarfon Mm, quite a haul Where will you stay when you get, when you, when you stay there? I dunno love bed and breakfast or something there, bed and breakfast or a little guest house or something Hotel somewhere Yeah, something nice so I get all me expenses for it Aye, of course you will so er, I might as well hadn't I? Well so I know what you mean, your husband's gonna miss you there for a couple of nights Well that's it , have, have to sacrifice it's all money isn't it? It's all money yeah It'll all be worth it Yeah, yeah, yeah so Yeah I think I'd better go home and make him some tea now, he'll be wondering where I am Will he? Yeah Why is he home before you? Well us usually he gets home around half five Does he? so it's getting on now though isn't it? Twenty past love Yeah, so er, he wouldn't of know you see, cos I only found out today, I wouldn't of, I haven't had a chance to tell him that I was coming here, but I thought well I'd call on me way home and see how you are He'll believe you when he gets home Yes he will believe you won't he? Ah Or do you want me to sign a you'd better sign a for me, no he'll be alright, have a nice bit of tea, so I will Lovely of you coming It's alright, I'll look out for you in the Pentam Oh right Ta ta love Ooh that was the lovely, I've put lipstick all Oh lovely girl over these nurses never mind will be talking about you never mind about them You, you look after yourself I will sweetheart and hopefully I will be in the Pentam when you come down When I call I will Yes Yes or if you can tell Barry when you're coming I'll be definitely in there to see you, how's that? Right dear I will Alright I'll do my best you look after yourself Will do Enjoy your tea Pardon? Enjoy your tea Thank you very much Martine bye, bye darling Alright ta ta sweetheart Bye I love you darling Bye Trev It's chilly, come in. Hello! Look the dog's . You been polishing your brass on your door? Does it show then? Yeah!door. as nice as that. Mind you, you haven't got all the traffic like we have. Yeah, it's cold! Shut up! Hiya dogs! Can you turn the key? No. Oh, Hiya! Oh! Ooh you're good dogs! Ooh Come in here ! You are looking beautiful! Got so many dogs . Go on, in there! Is it your mother? I know what your like . Go on then! got nowhere to sleep on this . Ohhh what have done to this little dog! Look at his little ! It should be over there. But he doesn't Well! Absolutely! Good God! It's some weight innit? It's a door stop is it? There's loads of big in the bathroom. Well! You mustn't have Goosey Lucy No! What's the matter Chloe? What's the smell in here? What have you had for your tea? Cos she's still in season. Why? Because she always goes quiet. Usually she makes rather a fuss of Tammy, Tammy's just going out look, she's coming in aren't you? I know you're just coming in,you are! Oh! You lucky dogs! Little chews! Right. What for tea . Oh shit, I haven't bought any scissors! Oh and Mike still hasn't been fo for today at work. I washed my hair, special! And I've gotta pick that . No, that's . You'll love that Caroline, I didn't give it a thought I'm sorry? Where's your ones? Well we'll let you off . I took them to work to clean my nails! Oh, I hope you cleaned them out? Don't want all gunge on my head! Oh aye! Cleaned all the snot out you know! Erm you've got a nice smell, what have you for your tea? Er, oh I made it, I made curry. It's very, very mild, it's a mild curry mix we had. Mm! I'll have that, if that's a curry, well we said bloody hell we never sa , chicken curry this hot before! No ! And I only had a bit though, with rice and some bread and some Yeah. poppadoms. Oh, and tomato sauce, I always have curry and tomato sauce! Ooh yeah! You don't! Pot pourri,with a loo brush now! Hey, can you tell me something Smells nice! ? Yeah! Cos it like, goes a long way. But these are some other make erm looks like Lloyd's own, it does make Yeah. like the but they probably made some things. Looks like toothpaste. Coming out? Mm! Cos I got, er when I bought my pot pourri there was a little bottle or more like oil, you know, like how your mum Yeah. has? Erm and I had that, but I've used the last of that to be honest. I could do with a bit more. Well they were selling pot pourris when I was queuing up to get , Yeah. oh the other, the other lot were in Boots? No. Go for a . Er, smells of blackcurrant the one that I've got. They're like bloody well erm sweaty, mouldy ! They were! I never smelt pot pourri like it! Good God! Doesn't sound so good! And I got a bag from erm Woolworths all blue shells in it for two ninety Yeah. five. I'm sure there was Just a very flat one, yeah. And I've started not having any to be honest. I have about, I have half of that, quarter of that. In work, they have to count it! count them out, oh you're down to eight now? Oh! After a week they'll soon sho , shove it up there! But, you know I don't think, there's more than, you take two each. Yeah. I couldn't back to, like I always used to have two erm but oh I couldn't go back to that! Sometimes now if I if I'm not careful and put a bit too much Yeah, you picked up and is wro , the wrong one up. Oh! It's just you get used to it don't you? Yeah, that's what I've been doing cutting down gradual. Yeah. As I say, I've always been like it that far for ages. Yeah. Can't get in ten grains. And you can taste the difference can you? That is always out! Oh you've took your things off your fridge? Yeah. They're on there now. Oh dog! Ooh! Oh dog! Coming in, yeah? How's your mum and dad? Oh,. Get in there! There's no need to be like that! Go and sit on there, go on! Go on! See she'd be attacking you if she was alright. She's moody for ages. Your mum knows you are! Your mum knows! She's sulking now cos we haven't really have we? She wouldn't go out in the car the other week so we like chained her to the wall we were. And she ripped my nail right off, it was a great big long one! Ohhhh! God! It was all blood gone on there, it's grown a bit now. Yeah. Watching. we weren't speaking were we Satan? We call her Satan now! It's alright, but mother didn't really mean it! Go on fatty! Get in her corner now! What's behind this cupboard? Well it wa it went up and it was like that dash used to be I should think it looks alright when I've finished it. It's all the water. Oh right! come here!. It was a piece of thing and it screwed up. Yeah ! Oh right! Yeah. If you were gonna switch the water on you had to run round and find the screwdriver Oh, what a ! We had some people round Controlled it, I was going to sneeze! Had all these people round about the house. When did they come? Did you have anybody that weekend when you rung on a Saturday? No, nobody. Someone come the other day, what was it? Tuesday. And they'd been down the Lake District, they were from the Lake district. Well he has got a job you know Mm. oh yeah,or something like that can't remember. Yeah. Well they said well we'll go back on Thursday and he said we've been round everywhere, he said, the thing is we don't know the area cos everyone No. keeps saying oh it's a lovely area! Lovely area! I said well this is, but yo you can't take my word for it because Well no. I could be saying that to sell the house, but I said it is. I said there's a lot of nice areas round here. She said oh yes, your kitchen's lovely! Oh everywhere's lovely, oh yes! I said oh well Well they will not. They will not have it,optimi optimi too optimistic because the first people I have, won't be the first one that'll buy it. Well that's often the way isn't it? So Well I mean you could imagine them loving it! Yeah. You know, I mean I can't imagine anybody coming round and not thinking it's lovely cos you've got it spot on! But no one else has nothing else. Haven't they? No. Actually I've been I was sitting in the lounge today right and you know the situation there see his car going round the corner and stop and got out the car beaming at me, I said cor give him my old ! All the neighbours have seen us clip clip clop down the path. Oh! Oh dear me! Get on your mats! Tell her to budge up. Next time she's gonna . Good though innit? It's good. Oh ! The wicker ones they've been thrown out have they? The wicker basket thing have you? No, probably chewed it all up! What are you like! She was teasing, oh it's probably the Yeah. wrong time for her. They've gotta have those like cushiony ones that you can wash. Oh! The . My laddie's got one of them like brown, very tough plastic Yeah. ones. Ben got one of those. That's right, yeah. No, and her. Ay, is Pip alright? She bit the postman didn't she, is it or somebody, the milkman or somebody? Did she? Oh! Yeah. She does only like you. The little madam ! Erm the She bit the postman or the postman I think it because was. he you ee, his hand goes in the letter box Yeah. the window was slightly open and Pip was sleeping under the window in the conservatory Oh. talking about, you know. Looked out well he put the letter on er the it was slightly open so he had to put it you know, I mean the postman Yeah. and the next minute rar rar rar Oh my God! Well, my mum said he should put them through the letter box. Yeah. Or I mean I think he's, she's bitten him before, if he had any sense he'd leave them at the gate or something, I mean somebody would go for them. Yeah! Wha , silly fool! No sympathy with people like that! And the best laugh is erm my mum, like, with Laddie like Laddie wouldn't hurt a fly and she can hear the postman sometimes, my mum get back! Get back! Get back! Just cos he's barking like a welcome. Mm. And er, he's petrified, well that's no way to talk to a dog and if you're gonna start off being aggressive they're gonna go for you you sho Who's petrified, Laddie? Oh the postman. The postman! Petrified of Laddie, good God almighty! Mm. Well my mum sees loads of dogs and that and she just, good boy, good boy! Yo , I mean if you ignore them practically they're alright. Yeah. Wanna a fag? Give it up. I'm going mad! Oh you give it up? I have. The what? Ay do you wanna dirty weekend? . Worm Chloe oh gotta worm you soon Chloe. And you mum? Oh erm Tam if you're in this house. We'll have to ring this vet up see where your cards are . Dear Tammy and Chloe it's booster time! To see where what's gone? They send them a post card through and I thought it was about February, but Win reckons it's the end of March their booster time. Oh! And er to see when we go every year don't they? I haven't! You have. I'll bloody well tell Nicole! Get knotted! They're not, they're real. How do you get They're real. your nails that long? Don't do any housework! ! They're not! I'm growing them for the wedding, they'll have to get cut because I break them. Mm. But I, they are real these. Then they grows a lot and they all break. I've always had strong nails. No well mine aren't strong. They don't grow very nice shape. I keep saying when they get sort of quite long that I'll have them properly shaped and Mm. whether they'd stay in the right shape or not. Well that one grows like a claw. Yeah. That's how Susan's got, Susan's are so bloody thick you know! Well they are. And they curl right over, ooh! She's got back from er, Tunisia. Yeah. I haven't spoke to her, I meant to ring her today but it's been all bloody go! Erm but she's had a nice time. But I told you on the phone didn't I, it rained and Oh! whether she'll have much of a tan or not, I don't know. I don't think she was that bothered, I'd be annoyed, like! I don't mind, I wouldn't of minded it a bit dull to start off erm and it would of probably done her good cos she wasn't used to it. Mm. You'd be a bit pissed off wouldn't you? If it didn't if you didn't have any sun. But, you were saying erm your dad's mum and dad had been Oh and it was raining they thought about that. Cyprus, did you tell me? No. Saudi no. Oh was it? No, no Saudi ! Near the Sahara Desert anywhere, somewhere,tha , somewhere round there I think. Oh! And they'd had rain hadn't they? Mm. And no end of people! Erm But get a picture of something. Yeah. Well Susan would have been home now. Oh. You know the sunbed you had was it a fast tanner while you was on holiday? You've asked me this before, it was a fast tan. Oh do they? Yeah. How often do you go under it? Oh or was it? Oh, make your mind up! Yes, it was you. Er How often did you go under it? I went every day. Every day? . I started off qua , er quarter of an hour so half ha , it was only one of these things that goes over the top. I just did half and half and then I built up with the second couple of days then I did twenty minutes and then by the end of the week I went twenty five minutes half an hour. And er Oh. just built it up from there. How many weeks is that for? I think I had it for about six or, six or seven weeks, something like that. Cos I had it for a month, cos I didn't know whether I was gonna like it, I'd never been on one before and er I'd heard Judith say that you could feel claustrophobic, you know, with it over you Mm. but, so I said oh I'll have it for a month and then I'll tell you then whether Yeah. I want it extended and that was fine. But when I rung to take it, for them to take it back they had a special offer on and it was twelve weeks for forty pu ,pa , you know, were doing it cheap Mm. cheaper than what I'd had it for but I mean they always do something like that Mm. don't they? You can guarantee it! Erm I'd have one aga , I mean, I wa I wanted mine for Alan's wedding so I could have a nice tan for, with my suit. Erm cos I'd always said ooh I wouldn't ever have a sunbed and all that, but I did in the end, cos we weren't gonna go anywhere so No. and, like I said I mean anyway if you've got a tan Mm. you can wear your nice summer clothes I'd hate white legs! Mm. Erm and I dunno, you just feel better, you feel good, you do. I don't well like, we're not going abroad so I want one but they're so bloody cumbersome and I don't want it Yeah. I got nowhere to pu , hide if anyone comes round. Yeah. So I don't Yeah, this one, you could store it up on it's own Yeah, but they're still in the bloody but way aren't they? That's it! No, this one yo , well we had but it wasn't a fast tan. Yeah. Are you going to do much on ano , on a fast tan one this time? No, well like I said I mean I didn't think mine had tanned me that much until I saw the photos from Alan's wedding, I was like a nigger. Mm. Erm but he was a good chap, this one, he come and delivered it, set it up and Yeah. all the rest of it. It's the one on er, the Aston Hill by Mm. the plaque. Erm but like, ideally, I said oh yes we can have it in the spare room, well there was that much rubbish in there clothes and God knows what else I ended up having it on our bed well it every time you wanted it you had pull it out, and they're bloody heavy! It was Yeah. on casters but the wheels Yeah. weren't much cop! So it was a bit of a pain but As soon as I sell this I can get one. Sell it tomorrow then I'll get one. Yeah. An and the other thing is of course, when I first started going on it you can't read while you're on it No. because you have to wear the goggle Yeah. things and mine kept steaming up. Erm so it's a bit of a I kept falling asleep. Well I'd be sitting there thinking oh God, I wish it would hurry up! You got nothing Yeah. to do ! That's it! It's alri , like Judith has got her own Yeah. and every night she'd be on it! She'd be in the bath, on the sunbed, and you know, out like on a Friday night that was her, bath, sunbed Yeah. out she'd go like. Erm But I mean she didn't hers wasn't fast tan one. Mm. Well she never looked brown all the time, do you know, I don't think it affected her after a while. I think it was just the thought that she'd been on it you know, and a nice bit of heat and everything, relaxing. The first time I had mine I was falling asleep and does a big click when it And it wakes you up. wohhh! And I I used to used to bang my head on the bloody thing! With Cos it I used to get know when it, when it, soon as it goes tick, tick, tick, tick,ti ti ti ti ti ti tick! Yeah. It's not straight off. Ooh I like them. Horrible! And it goes all black then doesn't it? Yeah. Mike come up a few times. Said ay what are you doing? Said nothing! He said you've been up here an hour and half! I said, oh I'd only have the timer and it let's you do half an hour at a time Yeah. so you can't fry. And er I'd fallen asleep, it had clicked off and I was still asleep! But er he went on it a couple of times couldn't didn't like. Aye Win said he was there and er sometimes he fell asleep and I'd be oh Win! Win And he, he'd be fast asleep under it! Yeah. And then, I never went to sleep but I went sleepy but not didn't actually sleep. Oh I was out like a light! But on the I don't think you'd bloody wake me if I had one now! I've been terrible! Nine o'clock and I'd have to go to bed! Dunno what's wrong with me! Ooh! And it's just not like me, I'd just be feeling tired all the time. I was like that once. I'm not so bad now. So right where's the Where's Win tonight? He's at . Where is the best place to sit? Er where did I do you last time? Nearer the light. Can we shift this table a bit that way or other way . Erm, what was I gonna say, oh aye, Mike said to say to tell Win Mm. to remind him about the cars. I said I've reminded him once! forget you know! When they get the time he'll be, turn up sometime. Ah And so anyway, he's bringing the money round sometime next week. Okey-dokey You'll have to now won't you? Yeah. He's frightened to do. Oh. That's the least of his bloody worries! Him Oh. turning up! He's been made up this morning, he's had a big tax rebate, fifteen hundred quid! Has he? Oh! Mm. Tax re , yeah. The cat that's got the cream! Do , let me just drink this and I'll do you. No! Oh! Oh! You're busy in work then? Yeah. Who was the feller that answered the phone? ? I'd got through to a girl I said extension two three six and then oh and the feller said er I've changed now four two three Oh! three now. Two three three. Got a different office now. Oh that was Dave . Oh. Pretty much ! Well he's okay but yo we've all had to muck in lately because of all this change and he moans and he moans and he moans and he says, outright I'm not doing that! Shall I tell you something now, he doesn't do it! And he gets away with bloody murder! And I said to him for God's sake stop bloody well moaning cos we've all gotta muck in! Oh, if you don't wanna get out! What am I supposed to do then? Is he a newish bod? No. He used to be a a driver, a driver, and then he used to be a driving supervisor and now he's in like, in traffic now. Oh! He's not he one that took this warehouse coordinator job? Oh no, he's been sacked! Oh has he? Well he he didn't take the warehouse manager's job. Didn't he? He like er they thought he was too good for that. They've sacked him now. Mm! What, they thought he was too good or he thought he was too good? No but they thought he was far too good for him, put him on as trainee manager then they sacked him! Oh right! Oh he's the one that was a bit flap Mm. Oh right. Do you put a lot of conditioner in your hair? Yeah. Only a bit. Why? Well it just feels sort of It's quite dry at the moment really. Oh it's done really good! No, looks as though they've done you some sort of . Wayne said tell Martine when she cuts your hair she's not to cut the sides a lot, she'll cut it, it's quite different from the length between the sides and the back. Okay. Yeah, and there was the last time I cut it I remember. That was ages ago. Cos there was already a a difference. I tend to trail the sides the though. You know, wrapped round my finger, and then Yeah. it weakens and breaks it off. Why who told you that, Wayne? What? No, I don't know why , it must do. The sides always seem thinner and shorter than the back. Yeah, cos like these bits as well, like some Yeah. of those are your fringe bits growing down aren't they? So that they make it as though, as though it doesn't just go fringe and then down, it sort of Yeah. a little bit I know what you mean. stepped. Are you gonna, gonna put a towel round you just there? Yeah, have a look in that cupboard there. Oh you found them. Shall I get a tea towel or a real towel do you want? I want a the bottom one. Yeah, that'll do. Nice tins them! They're quite nice! Mm! So erm, Charles mum bought them. Mm mm? Mm mm! Not too much of it then. Well why don't I not take anything off the side? Well I said, just don't of me being in line. Mm. Yeah, I see what she means. So that's what Please! you want the back the same length as the side? It has to . How much will you have to take off? There's that much. Make it the same length. Mm. scalped. Yo , to get it the same as the sides Mm. you'd need to take a good half inch. Oh! Oh I don't want that much off! Not if I take a quarter of a inch. Yeah, take quarter an inch off the back. I'll just trim the very dead ends off the side there. Yeah. It needs the dead ends cut. And this one. I mean it doesn't look bad all over really. You know er there's no tatty ends as such. Well I think there is. It looks awfully dry. Ah yeah but it makes quite a difference though. Might have a shop opening soon. Have you? But not this last time cos Rose did it last time. having to cock up . Yes and she's had a little boy! Hadn't she had that then? Er . she I wonder whether she'll do a bit of you know, going round? Yeah, she says she will do. She might, she could take the baby. She says she's going to. Did she? Yeah. Better had do . Yeah. Well I I want mine permed really for the wedding. I fancy one of these spirally type perms. Yeah. How do you do that? It's just the way they roll the curler on so I've been told but erm whether it's simple as that or not I don't know. Mm. You know, like they'd have to put a bit of a twist in it I suppose. So it sort of comes out sort of ringlets Yeah. rather than a curl. I dunno, I'm gonna try and see if er if Sarah will do it for me. You know the the ? Yeah. See if she'll do it. Oh she does them? Yeah, she's with er, Raymond and Jason. But I wouldn't go to them No. really but seeing as I know her erm I thought I might give her a ring. Are they building their house yet? Yeah. Looks really, very nice. Yeah?? Yeah. I just don't like where it is! Where is it then? It's on the common in Buckley Yeah. Erm well it's not sort of by itself, you know it's er surrounded by houses re , lovely houses, you know that are Yeah. big er, detached houses that have not long been built as well but to me, I can't see there being much privacy. Or at least, not until they've planted you know, shrubbery and Oh! what have you. But erm they're going through a bit of a wouldn't say a bad patch but with living with their mum, with their Yeah. mum for so long it's driving Dale round the bend! Takes it's toll. Well that's it! And she's in her element like, with her mum, because Mm mm. with er the dad being dead Yeah. she's been you know, used to being with her mum, I suppose she felt even closer than any normal you know, relationship. Yeah. But er it's taking it's, taking it's toll on him. Ah ah! And what about Alan and Sandra are they ? They're alright. Alan rung me the other day. But er perhaps he didn't no, cos did I, did I call? No. another guy. Erm No, he rung up said how you doing, alright? He says yeah, fine. I told you he spewed up on Sandra didn't I? No. Oh the dirty bugger ! Well they were going out. At home, you know in Lichfield Yeah. They'd been out and er I don't know who they'd been with like but he must of had a bit to drink. I mean it's crazy. erm I think I don't know that it's so much class, I think it's just this image of girls do this and or women do that and men do the other. Well and also I'd like to throw in my, my views of these people who advise young children on their careers. I think that basically it's a bunch of hocus pocus. erm Barbara Bryant. Yes, can I bring this argument a bit closer to home and talk about the sexual division of labour within the family, which I think is one of the underlying causes of discrimination against women, and that's really just a fancy term for the fact that when we talk about child care women do most of the work and men do very little, and really I don't think we can look at the position of women without looking at how, in fact, child care and caring is organized within the family. And study after study comes up, even in this brave new world, about the fact that only eight per cent or so of the child care is actually done by men, and this goes right across the classes. And in fact, if we look at even more, I mean where I work is a Family Centre in Berinsfield erm and I interviewed erm some of the carers of young children, and most of the women I interviewed had, in fact, been subjected to marital violence by their male partners and in many ways this had been triggered off by arguments over who should take care of the children and over the woman not being in her place, so although it's important to maybe look at the macro level, I really think we have to look at how men and women behave towards one another, particularly where child care is concerned. Well you say that women take care of the children ninety two per cent of the time. What role do women play in keeping themselves down, tied down to the family? Maybe the men only operate as child carers for eight per cent of the time because of what women have done. Maybe they're allowing men to put this burden on them and accepting it too readily. Do you think there's something of that in it? No, I think you're into victim blaming. . Let's look at the position of women once they actually get into the child care role and certainly the position of poor women erm the man is then the wage earner, the women then is relatively powerless. The man has more economic power, more physical power, a higher status. The only influence really the woman might have is in the love and affection level of operating, and it's a very unfair power battle and that is, in fact, what it turns into. At least in what other poorer women were telling me, when it came to after work and weekends the men were quite the women were prepared to look after the children and felt it was their role to look after the children while the man was at work; when the man came back he continued to feel that the woman should look after the children erm for the rest of the time, and the idea of a shared child care arrangement did not operate in at least a number of the families that I talked to and had been one of the causes of the breakdown of the marriage and one of the precipitating factors in the man physically abusing the woman. But why, why do the women accept that role of having no power? Do you think that that's just the way things are and they can't change it and society gives me more economic power and he has more natural strength, so this is an on-going battle that won't change very much? I mean how do Well how do things change? What will be different in ten years time? Well let's look at what's different now than it was before. I mean if we look at erm the large number of single parent families, mainly who are headed by women, the position of Social Security for these women has deteriorated in the last few years erm both in terms of the real value of the money received; Child Benefit has been frozen for the last three or four years; regulations such as you used to be able to offset your child care expenses when you were claiming income support have been changed, women can no longer can now only earn erm fifteen pounds a week of they're a single parent and they cannot offset their child care costs. Previously they could offset those costs. It keeps women in a subordinate position and men can then even more exploit the superior economic and force and status that their given within society. It makes it very difficult for women to take that first step on the ladder of actually becoming economically active, because they're caught in an impossible position between the needs of their children and their own personal needs, and until we actually look at the important and validate and give financial support to the caring role that women play, both in terms of looking after the children and looking after elderly relatives, this community care that is being talked about — community care is car on the backs of women, and it's unpaid and undervalued. Well how will things change? Well things have changed. Things have changed for the wore in my view. That's what you've indicated, so how do people claw back the bad position that they were in before? Well, as is with everything when you're talking about changing things, women really have to get themselves organized , nobody's going to give it to them. Ah, yes, erm you're getting very close to victim blaming here. You're suggesting that they've been disorganized? No, I'm I was suggesting that the odds are against them and that men have used a type of emotional blackmail against women, which has always been very successful, where they're actually forced, because there are no things like cheap or free workplace nurseries, they are forced to be the primary carers. Women are faced with an impossible situation, when if the man refuses to do the child care at the weekend and walks out, what do they do? Do they also leave their children? Women are faced with making a choice between the needs of their children and their own needs, and that is one of the things which, because they've put the needs of their children, the needs of their dependents, ahead of their own needs, they themselves and the needs of women have not got as far as they could. The state has a responsibility, in my view, to support children, to support work place nurses, to support the caring role which is done by women, and that is where the responsibility lies, as well as with individual men. But a woman, who, when her own needs aren't met, and when she's slowly disintegrating, is not going to be able to give very much to the children, or give as much as she could, so it makes sense, if she's really concerned about those children, that she will put, quite often, her own needs above them in order to get her act together, so that she's in control and feels good about what she's doing so she'll be able to give more. And if she were to approach her husband on that basis, that's a lever of power, isn't it? The result of an unequal balance of power is where I went back to, is the precipitating factor in marital violence which is, you know, some surveys put as high as one in four families, is in fact when the woman becomes uppity. Define uppity. Uppity is when she no longer agrees with the man's definition of her appropriate role within the family. But who you see at the very beginning they must have established what the roles were. No, society establishes the rules. The families are within that structure, where it is accepted that it is the man who goes out to work. Whether in fact there are disadvantages for some men, whether in fact it's very unusual for women to be the primary bread winner, when the man becomes the primary bread winner then the man holds the economic power. Child benefit is the only benefit which is in fact available to women, even then the government tried a few years ago to change that and to make it paid to the man. There is no allowance to women for caring for children. There is no equivalent to the invalid care allowance which is given to the person who cares for an elderly person. It's a pretty bleak picture that you're painting right now. Theresa Smith, how will we change it? Well I'd like to go back to the sorts of things that Barbara Bryant has been talking about. If you talk to women in the sort of project where she's working, I think you do get a very strong picture of people who have very little confidence in themselves and certainly think that education is not for them, and if you then look at projects like second chance for women, there's a range of access projects, particularly for for people who want to get back into education when they think that they've had precious little chance to get anything out of education when they were at school themselves. The sorts of experiences that you then get people talking about is really well I've learnt to stand up for myself for the first time, erm I now know what I want to do, I know who I am, erm projects where I've been involved, where you get women saying things like well two years ago I would never have dreamt of going and talking to the Council about my house, or my children, or that I can't get a job because I can't get child care, and I wouldn't have dreamt of doing that and people who now say well now I can do that, I know that I can go and stand up for myself and stand up for what I think is right, just as well as my husband can. It's that sort of change that I think is extremely significant, and I think it happens for women very much at that stage, when they have been through those sorts of experiences themselves, so one way in which I think that we can change things is — and help people to change things for themselves — is very much to support and develop those kinds of second change erm access, returning to education, returning to work, type projects as very much part of mainstream education and employment, and I would like to see a much greater range of those sorts of projects available for people and erm a lot more government resources into supporting that kind of provision. All right, but you're sitting there on the nursery provision for under five's working party, you chaired that committee meeting yesterday. No, I didn't, I'm only one of the spokespeople. Sorry, information was wrong there, but nevertheless you're near the top of the tree in trying to help get more nursery places in the county and you know that you're being you may have the best intentions, but you don't have the facilities to do very much about it. Things aren't going to happen from the government so much. Maybe people have to look at alternatives and non-governmental ways to change things. Any suggestions there? Yes, I think that well non-government ways, I certainly thing that we should be continuing and I think ordinary people should be continuing, as indeed they are. If you talk to people in the street the majority of people who have young children are certainly saying we need day care, we need opportunities for ourselves erm and are quite prepared, some of them at any rate, to go and say that to their local councillors and to write to their M Ps. And that's perfectly clear. If you're talking about non-government ways to do it, then I think that in any authority there are lot of voluntary organizations struggling to make provision of this kind. It's increasingly difficult for the voluntary sector to make provision of this kind, to offer those opportunities without proper partnership with the state, so I don't actually accept if you're posing an alternative and saying that it's either or, I don't think that's correct. I think that there must be a partnership of that kind in order to offer the opportunities that people, women particularly with children, are saying they need. Yes, Ann Mobbs. One of the things we are doing during International Women's Celebrations is we're putting on a jobs and training opportunities fair, in Templar Square in the middle of Cowley Centre erm on the fifteenth of March between ten and four, so any women who want to know how they can get back to work, or what training opportunities there are available, are welcome to come. And also one of the things we have done is we've booked this erm Just The Job Exhibition, which we brought down from Liverpool, and it's got fifty life-size images of black and Asian women, with erm a little bit on their experiences at work, how they managed to find jobs, how they got started in their careers, and we felt that would be erm an inspiration to women coming into Cowley Centre. We're going to put the whole exhibition for the day there, so they can see the kinds of ways that women have got jobs and the kinds of training that they've had to get to get them. Well, I'm joined on the line by Audrey. Hello Audrey, calling from Abingdon are you? Yes. It was just a quickie, I just wanted to read this little point that I actually think brings lots of what you've been discussing about together, and it's a light hearted, but it does have some relevance if I can just say it. Because women's work is never done, and underpaid, or unpaid, or boring or repetitious and we're the first to get the sack, and what we look like is more important than what we do, and if we get raped it's our fault, and if we get bashed we must have provoked it, if we raise our voices we're nagging bitches, and if we enjoy sex we're nymphs and if we don't we're frigid, and if we love women it's because we can't get a real man, and if we ask our doctor too many questions we're neurotic and if we expect the community to care for our children we're selfish, and if we stand up for our rights we're aggressive and unfeminine, and if we don't we're typical weak females, and if we want to get married we're out to trap a man, and if we don't we're unnatural, and because we can't get adequate safe contraceptives, but men can walk on the moon, and we can't cope or don't want a pregnancy we're made to feel guilty about abortion, and for lots and lots of other reasons we're all part of the Women's Liberation Movement. Audrey, thanks very much. Sorry, but all together. Quite wonderful. Thank you. We've talked about the Women's Movement so far. Let's talk about how men have changed. Well it's interesting, actually, because I've heard that before erm the piece that Audrey read out, and in fact erm someone in the City Council, a women in the City Council, put it on the front of her door and there was an outcry by many of the men who worked in the City Council. They were very angry about it. Oh, we're getting angry men now? Well let's look at how men have changed. Brenda Thornton, do you think that men have changed very much as a result of the more forthright stance that women have been taking recently? Yes, I do. I think erm many men have changed their attitudes erm towards women, particularly since erm men and women were educated together in colleges in their further education, because they've shared their life together before marrying, before having children, and I think young men have become much more erm domesticated, if you like, I think that's the only way to say it. And I think that they are more willing to listen to women and to share women's duties. I'm not saying that the world is perfect. It's far from perfect. I've already said that women in work, that's where they're losing out. I think they're losing out more in the workplace than they are in the home, and I'm only generalizing. I know that there are many women who have a very rough time at home, but you're asking me if I think men have changed, and I think in that way, domestically, I think they have, but I don't think their attitude has changed in the workplace. I think that's more or less still the same. Barbara Bryant, you were shaking your head there. Yes, I'm afraid so. I was quite interested in erm a study done by a woman, Mary Bolton, erm the actual work that was done and the sexual division of labour within the home, and in fact she looked at some of the previous studies that had been done and came up with a result that actually erm when men did some it was regarded as a lot, of housework, erm and that when you actually went back to count the number of hours and the number of minutes, you discover that men were doing very, very little. But if they did anything then that was really regarded as marvellous. Mhm. Yes, I'm not saying that it's perfect and they do their whack, I didn't say that. I did say that their attitude has changed from a generation ago and I think they are doing more at home than men did a generation ago. Yes, I think they tend to say they're doing it for you. I mean they're not doing their own housework or clearing up their own rubbish , they're doing it for you. But I mean I must admit on the side of some men, it's not actually an individual thing that I totally blame it on, although men, you know, have their responsibilities. erm I think we do live in a patriarchal society where, even if, for example , some of the single carers that I interviewed — three were men out of eight or nine — and they had an equally hard deal, because the rules are stacked against people caring for dependents, whether the people who care are men or are women. And that's why I say it's not only the individual men who are at fault, it's also the rules of the game whereby we look after dependent erm people within our society. Well, Theresa Smith, how do you think men have changed as a result of, of the more upbeat position that women have taken? I think it's very patchy, but I think that there is some evidence that, certainly younger men, younger people and younger men are much more willing to erm accept that there is division of labour within the home and that women equally should be going out to work as men. That's generally the message from some of the national surveys. So maybe things are very slow erm but I think there is hope that they are changing. Yes, but how would you want men to change. Would you want them to be able to express their emotions more intensely and precisely, able to show how they feel? Would you like them to be more capable of looking after children. What is it that you're looking for in terms of change for men? That's a I think there's a different different aspects. The way people express emotion is not simply a gender, it's not simply about how men and women behave, it's have how erm people behave in different parts of this country, or between England, say, and France. Oh, so you don't think there's any distinction No, I didn't say that. in emotional expression between men and women. No, no, I didn't say that. What I did say is that there are differences in emotional expression between people in different countries, just as much as Yes. there are between between genders. I would certainly I would certainly hope that men would become much less erm nervous and ashamed about expressing emotion erm and I would certainly hope that erm men learn as much as women do about erm how to look after children and how to bring them up, and I think there's some evidence that that actually is happening. So if you are asking me what I would like to happen, I would certainly like that to be the case. I think how you do it is very is a very different matter, particularly when you still have very many schools, for example, who erm take the registers — going back to basic things. Look at schools in this City. There are still schools which take registers separately, the boys and the girls separately, or who have pink library book cards for girls and blue library book cards for boys. This sort of thing. Now that's that's unthinking, but if that is happening in our education system, then I think there are real questions about how we change. So I think it'll be slow. Mhm. Ann Mobbs, what is it that you would like to see in terms of change for men? Well I think a lot of women are looking for an equal partnership really erm where the rules are laid down and they know where they stand, you know. The rules laid down by whom? Well I think by men and women. I think I think it's quite important that there is an equal partnership. I mean I have to say for myself, I mean I was married. erm enjoy living on my own, and I wouldn't really want to enter into another what I felt was a very oppressive relationship really erm because erm I don't think there are very many men who do think in terms of equality within erm within erm partnerships and within relationships within marriages. I Brenda Thornton, do you think it's that bleak? Yes, I think I think it is. I think it is really because I think what we've got to do, if we are going to have any sort of partnership or equality, I think men have got to become more like women. I think they've got to become less competitive, less arrogant and less dominant, seeing that as the macho role, and I think they've got to become erm much more erm feminine and approve the feminine characteristics, so that there isn't so much difference between the two genders, and particularly in marriage and in the home. But something I would like to say, which no-one has touched on at all; we've all been talking about the laws that affect women and equal opportunities, and no-one has mentioned anything about the horrendous hours that are worked in parliament making it not impossible, but extremely difficult for women to become politicians working in parliament to be the people who make the laws, to be the people who can actually affect women's roles in society erm everyone seems to accept the fact that our own parliament, totally dominated by men, and the sort of hours that only men can work, making it extremely difficult for women. Why don't we change that? I mean why isn't there a tremendous outcry, saying this must change, we can still have democracy, but let's have reasonable, sensible, working hours in parliament so that we can get more women into parliament. This is the sort of thing we've got to do, and that's a very difficult thing to try and change. If you talk to any male politicians they think you're crazy. Why are you suggesting that? It doesn't work? And anyway this works perfectly well. That's the sort of attitude that we've got to change in men. If I were a woman, and I experienced the problems that you're talking about now, I'd be mad as hell. Well, that's how you've got to change . Why aren't women more angry? Because it's a feminine trait that women are, on the whole, far erm less easily aroused into combat. erm and Well Barbara's shaking her head again . She disagrees with everything you've said on this programme. Yes, I mean, I feel very strongly in terms of women's rights, but I think there are obviously a lot of differences between women and you can't generalize women, the same as you can't generalize individual personalities traits on for men. I mean gender is one issue, but it's not the only one, and one of the ones that it seems to me that we've missed out on erm to date, when we're talking about International Women's Day, is race. I mean we've talked only about about women; we've maybe touched on class, and we've not even mentioned the position of black women and the extra discrimination that they face in our society, and in other societies. erm I Well how would you characterize that discrimination as extra? What's the extra dimension? Well the evidence is that they will erm much more likely to be in poverty, much more likely to suffer ill-health, their children are much more likely to be erm to have childhood diseases. There is an increasing discrimination on my view because of the racism that exists as well as the sexism that exists within our society, and when you say why don't women do more, the odds against women, particularly black or working class women, are very heavy. erm we have to continually fight, but to say we have to fight as well for our children and that is, in many ways, you know, the odds start off being stacked against us in my view erm and it is a continual battle. Women do need to become much more political, because the rules are defined by men and politics, as in fact has just been pointed out, are defined by men, in subtle ways as well a structural ways, and one of the subtle or not so subtle ways is in fact to insist that parliaments starts that ten o'clock in the morning Yes, that's right. and who looks after the children? Ten o'clock in the evening, sorry. That would make a tremendous difference to the opportunities for women to go into parliament, and the kind of women you're talking about. It would make it not just a dream, it would make it something that actually was possible to achieve. At the moment if you talk to women, the women you've been talking about, about going into parliament, I mean it's a laugh, isn't it? And that's what we've got to change, because they're the sort of women we need coming into parliament. They're the sort of women who are needed to make the real changes. Ann Mobbs, why aren't women much more angry than they appear to be? Or maybe I'm misreading them; maybe they are; maybe they're about to boil over. I think a lot of women are very angry about erm the way they're treated by society really erm but it's interesting, isn't it, that the kind of erm jobs that erm women have? I mean with this exhibition that we've booked ‘Just the Job’, which is black women erm and the kind of jobs that they've got, a large percentage are carers and erm and it is the thing that erm women feel that they can do and it erm in a way that it comes out of their role in the home, the caring role, and erm and it's a role that they get sort of erm trapped into and it doesn't pay very much money, as Brenda was saying earlier. Mhm. And one of the reasons why the black women in Liverpool put this exhibition together erm and they tried to pick out different kinds of jobs that women had to show that black women could do those jobs, and they were saying look, there's lots of stereotypes erm about the kinds of jobs that black and Asian women can do that fit in with their personalities, and you know the world is wide open and you are able to do this and you don't have to be erm a singer or a model or erm or erm erm a runner, you know, the whole stereotypes in terms of what black people are good at and they're saying let's break away from this, let's show the kinds of things that we can do and we can do anything that we set our minds to and erm the exhibition is very positive, actually. It's very nice. Well, let's talk about a positive erm approach to this, maybe next year at this time. What will be different? Theresa Smith. What will be different this time next year? Well erm if I'm crystal ball gazing, I would hope that all the women in this country, whatever their colour and whatever their class, would have access to first-class provision for their young children, so that if they wished to work they could actually work in jobs that paid them enough and gave them job satisfaction. Currently that's true for very few women. I would hope that's a hope I would hope that enough women who wanted to could actually be in parliament if that's what they wanted, could be runners, could be models. I would hope that this government would actually be recognising those sorts of aspirations. Your question about why aren't women angry — maybe people don't express anger until they can see that there is some point in being angry and that being angry actually helps you to change things. Maybe that's what I would say by this time next year. Maybe we ought to hope that more people will be angry in ways that actually mean that we can change things. Do you believe that women feel more empowered or less empowered now than they did last year? I think that's a very difficult question. erm the women that I talk to in groups up and down this county, I think some are angrier than they were, some are feel more empowered erm if they have if they've had these sorts of experiences that I was talking about earlier. Talking in Leicester this week and last week to groups of black women, some black women are saying I have never thought before about being able to talk about what I am and making up my own mind. I think when I meet — and maybe would count them not in hundreds, but in tens — when I meet women who make those sorts of comments and say this time last year I would not have said that, then those sorts of things encourage me very much. Ann Mobbs, which way do you think the pendulum's swinging. Next year, what do you think will have changed; not what you hope will have changed, but what do you see as practical? I don't think there's going to be any dramatic changes at all really. I don't think life is like that. I mean unless we had erm a change of government, say, and we had a women's ministry where someone was putting a lot of thought into the role of women in our society, and what one could do to improve the position for women, but we haven't got a government that's thinking in those kinds of ways. Mhm. And Brenda Thornton. erm I, I agree with Ann, not about the government, but I agree that I don't think anything very obvious will have changed in a year erm but I don't think it depends on the government. Just four years ago I was working in China and I celebrated International Women's Day in China. In China they have written into the constitution the equality of women in opportunity and everything else. So, very exciting, erm and there celebrating there will be the women representing all sorts of different bodies; there were only two men there — why were there only two men? Because the two men were the chairmen and all the women had all the lower positions . Now, no, erm if there isn't a ministry for women, and if there isn't a government change I don't think that's a bad thing. And Barbara Bryan, next year what will be on the cards? I think much the same as is on the cards this year, that women are angry, in my view, erm women are proud of what they're doing. Some women, and hopefully more women, will turn that into political action — whether that's demanding a playgroup for or whether it's demanding that their political leaders were mainly male, pay more attention to women. They have to keep fighting. Well, many thanks indeed for fighting for the last hour on this programme. Thanks to Ann Mobbs and to Theresa Smith, to Brenda Thornton and to Barbara Bryan. That's it from me, Bill Heine. Thanks for joining us. Goodbye. Kelly. You are once again doing it completely and utterly wrong. at the wrong place again. Kelly you have been using Kelly, you've done it again. Can you walk the right way, no, now do it right Kelly. Let's see you actually do something for a change.. How do you do this one down here? You should have. What else have you been doing wrong Kelly? . You've been using a brush instead of a spatula for spreading glue. The spatula . Right. Now I hope that only Kelly has been doing things as desperately wrong as Kelly has been doing them. Looking around at all the there are a whole lot of people who have left the same even border all the way round instead of having an even border top and sides and leaving a bigger border at the bottom. Which you'll remember you were told to do so that there's a space For your name. Sarah stand up and come over here. Sam, will you stop doing that please my love and come across here so that you two don't . I'm using a white colour pencil here in order to draw a line from to the work that is being mounted on here. And you might say that the word has not been mounted on there. No it hasn't because we . Can you see what I'm doing without me having to ? Or are you baffled by what you see? ? Mm? No. it's a demonstration and the, the line itself is like framed within a frame. And I should imagine that the light paper's the backing paper and that I've already glued my work on the paper and my my picture is already glued just there. Can I have my sellotape back? And I'm now drawing Sorry. a white line about half a centimetre from the edge of the work being put on. Right this is a decorative line round the sides of . Does that make sense? Just a white line. Now you can make that look even smarter by making a second white line on the outside. And then moving the erm ruler slightly away from the border for the second line over the top of it which makes it thicker. So you've got a thin white line on the inside and a thicker white line on the outside. That's point one. Point two is this, that I made the bottom border there er about be exactly five centimetres. And I'm going to put a guide line which is one erm er half a centimetre from the side there . Yes Christine, can I help you? I've put two very faint white lines there in white. You could use ordinary pencil, are you alright Bruce? Have you lost something? Aye I was just You then write your name in block capitals. What's your name? Jane? J A Y N ? Yeah. So imagine you were writing Jayne here J now it's a very long name, Jayne and you have to put the title on there too, so I couldn't put it all in capital letters on this occasion could I? Probably that was a little bit on the, the large side anyway so I would use lower case as well on this one, a bit like, a bit like junior school writing. Do you know what I mean? Then it'll fit on very easily. You have to use your common sense. But you can see how a white pencil on that paper, that's going to look quite smart. Without, without the picture. So that's the next stage. Go. can I start by asking your name? Well my name is er Mr Laurence er o of the Treasurer of the in Edinburgh area. And erm what was your date of birth? My date of birth was the thirty first of the, of the seventh, O nine. Which makes me now approximately seventy six years of age. What can you remember from when you were young about sort of housing conditions and What I remember of the housing conditions when I was then residing in Motherwell, a mining er community. And known that particular time as the steel town of Scotland. Was erm the whole town taken up with these sort of two occupations? Yes, it was all mining and steelworks. Was all . In fact the Ravenscraig, present Ravenscraig was built up on the first place from a steelworks known then as Corral Steelworks. Mhm. And D L Steelworks and Lanarkshire Steelworks, these er steelworks, all amalgamated which is now known as the Ravenscraig Steelworks. Mhm. What erm what kind of education did you go to when you ? Well I, my education was in a small er the local school, School in Motherwell. Mm. And they were only a s s a sort of infants and secondary school er there, and you . There was no, all these highfalutin er certificates to gain en all you had to, had to gain to be fit for employment then was a qualifying certificate, that was the only certificate issued in those days. A qualifying certificate. Er how old were you when you left the school? I was er four I left the school at fourteen years of age and I was down the pit the following day. The following day? Mm. What do you remember about working in the pit? Well the working in the pit and the first and the first time I went down the pit er the pit was er John Watson's number four colliery in Motherwell. And er I went with my dad and got into the cage which takes you down to the pit bottom and er er er immediately the cage left the surface it just dropped like a stone and I myself was frightened that the bottom of the cage collapsed completely. Because my stomach come up and met my heart and everything went . When I reached the pit bottom, there was approximately three feet of water at the pit bottom and I had my first experience of water in the mines. Were the conditions in the mines quite dangerous in those days? Well in those days er there wasn't much me much er coal cutting machine, this was all hewn by hand. And we had the pit ponies and where we didn't have the pit ponies drawing the hutches, which we termed the small wagons carrying the coal from the coal face to the pit bottom, then er we had to do it by hand. And if there were h a wagon or a hutch went off the road there you were with not enough height to lift it all back off the rail again and believe me that was experience in itself. So it was quite a difficult job then? It was a difficult job, yes. Mm. What were the erm the wages and the hours like? Ooh, the wages. I started the wages and er I didn't have much more, I started I had six and eight pence per shift. Mm. And er what were the hours like? The hours, well sometimes I would do a double shift which was sixteen hours. Or eight hours for a full shift, sixteen hours for a double shift. Mm. And in those days we required the money and er often, very often we had to do it to strengthen our wages a bit. Do a double shift. Which meant you come home from your double er shift, went to your bed, had about four hours sleep and were back out for your normal shift again. Was you erm in a union or anything at all at this time? Yes, the miners' union then was just wasn't that that was started was . In fact there's, very near the start of the unions in and o er that, that the miners' union was one of the first to start up. Do you think it gave you erm any advantages being in a union? Y oh yes it gave us advantage to the extent that we'd someone b behind us to fight for any, any er grievances that we had. That was the idea of the union starting out in the first place. Mhm. We had to pay into a union. We can, on every Friday there was a union official down there in a small hut. We had straight from our wages straight to the union, it's payed at union right away. So that there was nobody skipped. What were the erm the erm relations between the w the workers and the bosses like? Ah well more or less much the same as it is today. That's what we got the union for. That's what we got the union for. That's what we got the union for, to make sure that these things did not happen. Mhm. That we wouldn't be stepped upon. Were you involved in er any strikes or anything? Yes, I was involved in the nineteen twenty six strike. And in nineteen twenty er strike going at the present day there was what we called the soup kitchens. And every local village where there was a mine had these soup kitchens. I do not forget the other unions which were going at that present time helped us out quite a bit. Though we los we actually lost the strike through no fault of our own. There was just because there wasn't enough money within all unions, not forget that there wasn't such a thing as a T U C then, this was in at the infancy when the unions first started, there wasn't such as a T U C, Trades Unions Congress. These were er in, in its infancy then and er we had a soup kitchen and er we, we got soup once a day, when we got issued with it. Each family took over a, a ration card. And you got so many slices of bread, so many pots of soup. And this was all done in old wash houses, where they used to have the boilers. Where we used to b boil the water. And the soup was made in these boilers, and they were issued with their soup then. And that was all we got. What was it erm started the strike in the first place? Well they started the strike as muddled as as some greens come up and the men as union thought that was not right. Not forgetting in that most of the mines then, at that particular time, were nearly all privately owned. Mhm. Were nearly all privately owned. Were nearly all privately owned. Most, right across the length and breadth of Great Britain, were all privately owned. Which the present administration of central government are doing their best to, under the same hammer as it was in those days, so it's just, this is just a repeat performance of the those days and the government today. Was what it erm finally brought about the end of the strike in twenty six? Pardon? What was it finally brought about the end of the strike in nineteen twenty six? Well it were just like I like I the unions weren't as, as er financially well off as they were er at the present day. There was not the money, we were forced to. As I say the present day er premier just now is actually trying to do the same thing as a repeat performance So sort of erm what was, was there erm any victimizations or anything like that, from the bosses when you went back to work? Oh immediately there was a victimization in the pit,o the pit was out. Mm. It was er taken there . The grievance was taken to the union, the union just say er told the steward who belonged to that particular pit there, right, just call the men out, that's it. S so erm did presumably are quite strong like that then? Oh oh yes oh yes it was one of the be it still is one of the best unions. Still is one of the best for sticking mm. Was there erm I've forgotten what I was going ask you. Er mm were there erm many strikes at the time? Oh no, oh no, oh there were all v very few and far be there may have been local strikes but, such as one day er a grievance been put in and the men struck work just for it. But immediately the get a result. So all our lads are more or less, that was lightning strikes and finish off. Mm. One day and it was finished you know? Because that would union, you see? Did you work in the pits for a long time? I was five years in the pits. Mhm. Er eh in er in Lanarkshire and Motherwell, and er at that time, being a young lad no more between er f er fourteen and twenty, I realized then that wasn't going to be a life for me. So I then decided that I would join the army. Now I joined the army. I served my time in both India, Palestine, Gibraltar, Egypt and these sort of places abroad and when I, I nine months of my colour service to finish, which were a twelve year service,when war broke out in nineteen thirty nine. I then went er across to France with the B E F. Was in France about nine months approximately when the big invasion started in Poland and through France. I was taken prisoner of war at Saint Valerie for a few of my friends in from Edinburgh who were taken prisoner of war. I was taken to a main camp called Lamstor camp in er Polish er German border. And er you, you know what happened then? I was back down hole again. For another five years work, so I served five years in Germany too as a, as a miner. The prisoners of war were used as miners in the Oh yes camps? yes. Oh yes. We were used as miners, yes. How did the pay and the conditions and such like in the army compare with erm being in the mines? Er the, the money, the money that I money difference wasn't great but the fact was er who you were thinking about er when you did come out. You had a lot of, a lot of qualifications which you could get in the army in those days that you didn't have when you were in civil life. For instance you could learn to be a, a motor driver, you could learned to be an electrician, you could learn to be an engineer, you could learn to be anything. And you through these courses and you got a certificate when you come out which er some of the said to us, a fully qualified member of a, so these advantages were open to us then you see? Mm. So this was the, the main incentive for joining the army then? Pardon? Was that the main incentive for joining the army? Knowing that you gain qualifications? Well my that was my incentive the mines. Yeah. But as I've already told you just, it was very ironical that I should l go back down the hole in er Germany again . Were the conditions worse in the, in the German mines? In the ? Oh no, I the mine, the mines in Germany at that time were far advanced of what er Britain's mines were. Cos they had different methods of doing the, digging the coal out, than they h than they had in Britain. And I believe . Although I've not been down a mine since then, er the German mines to my er estimation were far more advanced than what the British mines were. Were you made to work hard harder being a prisoner of war? No harder than we did in Britain. You could not, no, a miner once he's been a miner, cannot go down er a pit and say to anyone down a pit, and say to anyone down a pit, that he's not a miner. Because he gives his right away. The experience he has gained in the mines at immediately a man g a man who has been in the mines goes down there again his er n er he gives himself away, because, just because of the experiences. I saw an incidence er down in the, the mine a, a miner himself can tell, by the creak of a tree just where the heavy, heavy weight's coming on the, on the, the roof. And where there's likely to be a fall. And the miner can only pick up a, a pick and knock the rook and he can tell exactly where er where it's weakest in the rook. So, so these thi these things did do, show up when you're d when you're down the mines. A ma a magic phase, you can't give it away. And they didn't ne we didn't need the if we were a miner. A mine w a miner could tell another miner by his accent. Not just by him telling he's a miner he can say er that's a miner. What, what did you do erm after the war? When you came back to Britain. Well I, well er I came back to Britain er I, I was er liberated by General Patton in a, a small place called Erfurt I was flown from Erfurt into Cherbourg, and from Cherbourg into a small place called Amersham which was a reception station for prisoners of war, where we were treated er on entering the camp we were handed a telegram. All we had to do was sign our name to it. And these telegrams were for, to our nearest and next of kin, telling us we were now safely home. Did erm did you notice any great differences when you came back from the war? Oh vast vast differences To the, to the er yes. Oh vast differences. My first experience in going into tramcars er in, in Edinburgh anyway and I suppose that the same thing would have happened er in any country,just gone through the ravages of war, with blackouts and so forth. The people from the highest paid to the lowest paid were all just one unit. And I wish to God that would just come back again, now there people would just treat one of our as they did it one of during the war's years. And I can't see any reason why they can't. Why they should, people with a higher look down their nose at the people who are lower than themselves, I can not figure out. I think we need another war to get rid of the er get rid of some of the thing that's happening at the present day. So you think the war erm unified the people? Behind the Er it definitely it had proved it itself. It proved it, the war years proved it to the people. Er that they were, they were all just one. But nowadays we're not, nowadays we, there's a higher, a middle class and a lower class and a lower lower class. What erm what kind of employment did you find when you came back from the war? Well I, I erm my first employment was in the, was in the building trade with er an old firm in Edinburgh called and believe me I was not a very fit person then after seven, five years and I was like a rake, I was like a skeleton. And I got there and by good luck I got a very good er site agent and after asking me what I'd done, he says it's alright son we'll build you up. And he actually treated me like a, more or less a son, the site agent, and he made sure er I gradually developed my muscles. He never put me on a heavy job until at such times he thinks I was fit . Well that's the way I was treated when I came home. By the the I served five year then and I left that and I went into corporation transport which was tramcars then. And I went then from a, a timber mill and they there's various different jobs I've been in since then, you know? What was the conditions like in the building trade after the war? Well er you know at that time there in the building trade there was er what they term a, an essential work order. Which you had, the government, the government or building firms had to guarantee you forty four hours' payment f of wages, forty four hours guaranteed and you had to get that whether you were working or not. So that was an essential work order was by the government in power then. That m er the firms must guarantee forty four hours wages for the man, doesn't matter what Was, was this erm to protect the men or to make sure that erm It's er it's more or less a retainer for the men. Aha. A retainer so that they could have, that man couldn't go in another job . Aye. Presumably this was cos there was a big erm a big surge on to rebuild the Oh yes, yes there was country yes, yeah. Mhm. The, the present, the present day er in Edinburgh, the present day buildings that I helped to build up are now in Pilton and in fact er out in Saint I built, that was a er built a fact I did all the rough . Both in Pilton and in present day er Pilton Circus which is er er there's a lot of er controversy going over er m making them, privatizing them and so forth but I l I was er the building of these things and did all the er the work for them. Is that erm quite a dangerous job working on the, on the building sites? Well it depending what, what sort of job you're doing. All depending what sort of job your job, it could be dangerous if you didn't know what you were doing. I mean you couldn't put a stranger on a job that you, you yourself . But once you were qualified for the job you couldn't put a stranger on you had to ta teach that stranger a job. Before what he was to Erm where did you go after the, after the building, the building work? After the building I left er the building work and became a tram conductor where I went through a course in the, down at Shrub Hall went through a conductor's course. After going through the conductor's course I then went to Leith depot, old Leith depot er of the, with the tramcars. Eventually was put on the tramcars as a, a conductor. Served with them as a conductor er for about approximately four years er and the experiences I had er as a conductor were many and varied er er if you do er recall er the old tramcars er the fares weren't in comparison today. I can remember quite vividly the old tramcars running there er day and night, with the last service leaving the outskirts of Edinburgh around about er twelve er eleven thirty and you g have about ten minutes or so to reach the depots which there were many and varied at this particular time. There was depots in Tower Cross, Portobello, Leith, and many other places like that. But while I tramcar leaving any suburban area there was always what was known then as a worker's return. And that worker's return was three pence. Three pence for a worker's return. And it was always on that er tramcar, whichever er suburban district they were leaving, was always a packed car. Always fully laden. Because the conductor always had to wait until such time as the queue was diminished quite a bit and hi his tramcar was full so that the next tramcar come along er coming along, whatever number, was to be d the same thing happening again. So the suburban districts then were very well served with the old tramcars. And I believe myself today, at present day,the tramcars were coming back again, there would be, could be a way of resolving this matter of going onto different buses. I take, for instance, the present day just now where we have, what we term, the old aged pensioner's railcard. Now what is to stop, instead of an old age pensioner getting on, with their ticket, or a thirty pound annual ticket or their quarter quarterly ticket. What on earth's to stop, to have a transfer ticket, which could be used on any bus at all. So there would b take away this anomaly of old people having to use three buses to get from one end of the town to the other, which means, in actual fact, that each bus they went on to, they paid this ten pence, which if there's three, if they do not turn it twice a week, twice a day, that's sixty pence. Now why can't they issue a ticket, transferable ticket So I don't have to use three buses, all I have to do is I've got one ticket, now that ticket reserved for particular . Do you think then that the er trams provided a better service for the people than the buses? Well we were a better er service, they were a better ser I'm not saying that I think so, I know they were a better service don doesn't does n they're not quite proof, there were in an tramcar Edinburgh Corporation tramcars were running, they were running at a, a, every year a profit. Whereas at the present time, with the buses, it's all deficits. If that is not proof I . The one speech for the other surely. Was you erm in a union at this time, when you were in the Yes, Transport and General Workers' Union was, yes. Did you find that erm there was more advantages in being in the union, when you working on the trams? Oh there always is advantages. If you're a staunch union member there is advantages. With the proviso that you keep your payments up to date. And attend your branch meetings. Was there any erm disputes or anything at that time on the, on the trams? Oh very few and far between. Very few and far between. Maybe just locally, at local garages but as far as, far as being the all national or anything like that, there was never anything I with the tramcars. Were the erm the relations with the bosses and the workers quite good, on the ? Very good, very good. Oh. Even with the inspectors too, there was always a good er going with the, the people in those days. Mhm. And was this quite a well paid job? Well it erm it was average, it was average. Yes. And er did you have to work like erm shifts and things like that? Oh yes. Ex exactly the same as going to the present day. You had the split shifts and the down shifts and maybe we were called for er a What did you do after you left, you left the trams? After I left the trams then er I went er I went away to East Kilbride. I used to work for a certain er c er creamery there. Er getting milk, separating milk er pasteurizing milk and like that. Was East Kilbride one of the erm one of the new towns? it was er now it was, now at the start of the new town er present East Kilbride a new town, it was known as a new town and it was just starting to build up. And I had better chances of getting a proper house for myself and my family which was then two daughters and my wife and I. So we actually went there to better ourselves and try and get a h a reasonable house to sort of live in and Was there a lot of encouragement given to people to move out premises? Oh yes, at that time there was, yes. Oh yes. If they accepted it of course. Was it er easy finding a job at that time as well, in the, in the new towns? Oh yes. It was being that the, the Rolls Royce Saturday, came in to East Kilbride and, and American firms like that were coming along. Singer sewing machines and sort of things like that. They were all coming into East Kilbride, there was b cos after all there was starting off a new town and they was building up then from it. What were the erm conditions like in the creamery where you worked? Very good. We got our free milk, of course, we got our free milk. That was one we got our free milk as many pints of milk as we required for to keep our fam but no more, no more than that, just much your family had they'd allow you a pint per per person. Was it erm was it hard work in the in the creamery? Oh no. No not in comparison to the jobs I'd already been in. Oh no this was much easier for me. Because at that time . And er after this did you move back to Edinburgh? I moved back to Edinburgh too because er my er my family had taken a yearning for Edinburgh, they didn't like East Kilbride so I says left. And also it's true today, you go where your family wants to go and that was, this was er they had a yearning for that and they were not settling down so What did you do when you when you moved back to Edinburgh? Well I went into a timber yard er known as er, what was the timber yard again now? . And they . Where as I said er working with timber. Was that erm like sawmill or something? Sawmills, sawmills and . Cabinet makers Was that a dangerous job? Well it could be dangerous, if you didn't watch what you were doing. Like every other, other job you've got to er gain experience as you go along, you've got to experience. And you've always got to, you've always g advice and on how to handle it before you, you put actually handling them. Were there erm any accidents or anything? Er but if there was any accidents through negligence, if there were accidents, it was negligence er and the people by themselves. Which is er worker often, often often most of our accidents is caused by negligence. So what were the conditions in the er in the mill like? Very good, very good conditions. Very good conditions indeed, aye. Was there a union there as well? Er there w wasn't a union then. Mm. I believe there is so now, but there wasn't then. So it, it didn't really matter to me. I've always still held my card. Although I still held my card of the Transport and General Workers. Mhm. So you continue to be a member of the Transport and General Oh aye, yes, oh . Oh yes. God I you could never tell if you're, you're going to be there long enough in job, if the, the boss didn't like you then he would just say well you're, you're paid off and that's it, so that's sort of benefit of keeping your union membership up you could go to anywhere where there was a trade union, a union membership and get a job. So er the, was being unemployed at that time quite precarious? If there was It was, it was. At that time, yes. It was er at that time because of the, they were very few and far between. Employment was very few and far between. Because there wasn't the same amount of work,this is just after the war I'm talking about, and there wasn't so many going then. There were only starting making themselves then. Er So were erm were jobs quite hard to come by in those days, after the war? Well er well it all depended on the individual themselves. If there's a miner who's in getting work. Although you had to be very careful in er in d knowing what to go after. Depending on the rate of wages. Depending on the rate of wages. So you're actually, if you're going for a job, you want er for the highest place where you get the highest wages, which was a for any working, you're going to What did you do after you left the erm after you left the timber mill? After the timber mill, er . Now can I remember about after the timber mill? Let's see now. My mind's a blank I've been in that many different jobs now. I thought you said you were in a, a warehouse after that wasn't Oh that's right. You I was in a warehouse at served thirteen year there. And I was working in a large warehouse, a three floor warehouse, a grocers,grocers. I served there for thirteen year, became a chargehand eventually and eventually the f the firm folded up. What were they Very old established firm, it was established in er eighteen fifty six. So it was a, a, a firm of about a hundred years standing at that time. But the both brothers who owned it er Charles er John and Tom were becoming very very aged and were not capable of carrying on the job. And they approached the son who wasn't interested so they just folded up. What were the conditions like where you worked in the warehouse? Ah well we, we actually made our own condition and this is one time, I'm telling you again, where my union membership came in very handy. I actually made it a union firm . So you unionized the whole firm then? Organ organized it. Organized the people inside it. And I explained to them what benefits they were getting. Mm. Although the employer was pretty reasonable to us he p always payed us sixpence above the rate. Above the normal rate. What was the erm the employer's attitude to you unionizing and organizing and Oh oh he didn't say, he says oh just a, it'll not worry me he says, whether you er start one or not he says. I pay my men sixpence over the, the rate. So I says well thank you very much, but still for mu l people benefit themselves. Mm. They're better being in a union, he says I agree with you, quite agree with you. The union fights for he says, and the union's a but I'm one of these employers who paying them, my men a plus rate, so I'm paying men sixpence plus over the normal rate so there was no difficulty there. Mhm. So he obviously wouldn't have thought the union would have been much of a threat to him seeing as he No, no it didn't because he was prepared to pay over er above the rate . The union already fought for that rate and they got it. But he was paying them sixpence above the rate so there was no problem to him. Did you notice much differences in the work once you got promoted to a chargehand? Well er there was I didn't do so much of the normal grafting naturally, but I was always, if there was a new man came on the job they would always learns. And I was to show him what to do and I made sure that all . On the first day I made sur I stayed with that man all day. As I said I stayed with that man all day. Although I wouldn't t in interfere with show him how to do the job and er I would make sure he understood the job. If he asked me such and such I'd say now this is how you do it. If he said to me, after I'd shown him, that he understood it, I would say alright, show me how you do it. And then that way the man learnt. Mm. The man himself learnt. And usually the man telling me he understood if eventually when he starts the job, he hasn't understood at all, he's just saying so, but I wanted to prove to the man himself that he could do it and prove to myself that he could do it. So I was in a safe and so was the man. But So you were given the responsibility then to train people up? given the first in this . Now then that were left on the Did erm do you still keep up your union er membership right away when you were Oh yes, oh yes. Aye, yes . In fact I were shop steward in the, in the building trade, I was a shop steward in the building trade. Mm what did you go on to do after that? After the business folded? Was there anything like erm redundancy money or anything like that payed at that time when the place Er folded? And can you remember what year it was? Oh it's about Just roughly. fifty, fifty seven I think. It was somewhere thereabout. Mhm. And they didn't have all this er legislation about redundancy money or anything then? No no. in its infancy then. And, and then er at that particular time you know and er then unemployment you, I you had to see each firm was issued with the and the firms had to agree that you had to sign a contract of employment so that er if you were leaving or he was paying you off, you had to be given two weeks' notice either way before they pay you off. And that was the contract of employment. Mhm. Yeah. What did you go on to do after the business folded? Ah well I was, I was a y on er thing we had back in the building trade. Back in the building trade once again which I had experience before so I had no problem . And the reason in the first place I did leave the building trade was my hands was breaking out with in industrial disease, see? Dermatitis and I felt I couldn't go near cement and all of that. But then I, eventually I tried the building trade again and I joined a firm called er forget, or something like that and I was working up in George Street in, in, in Edinburgh. You always go building, we gutted right from ground floor, left the existing walls in. And then inside building we completely demolished inside, just sort of left the retaining walls and built it up from fourteen feet below the ground to five storeys, high,itself. And we had to go down through fourteen feet of solid rock. So this was obviously quite a difficult job? Aye it was a difficult job but as I say to have an experience mines Mhm. and er building trade work, both of these things had left me with the qualifications for be abl be able to do it. Did you notice much difference in the sort of er erm the techniques or the machinery or whatever that was being used between ? Ooh vast va er er in the building trade? Oh yes, yes. For instance you see all these big they'd actually built up from the ground up, they'd no taking now just the odd . They built up from a working Was there still the erm the, the thing you talked about with the guaranteed work at that time? Yes. Oh aye aye. Yes but er the essential work contract then that I had spoken about in the first place the building trade, that was a government order. Essential, essential work which was operated during the war years and er what year a couple, several years after that. That was an essential b eventually that was taken away, but the building trade still believed if a building firm wanted men, they had to have at least a thirty two hour guarantee, which is at present still in operation. A thirty t they had to guarantee an employee thirty two hour guarantee, Was that to get rid of the sort of ee erm the way them building firms used to take people on every day? exac stop this casual labour business you see? Whe whereas the building trade would say oh I'll take you, you're a friend of mine, I'll take you you're a friend of I can take you, you're a friend . It was It was a great lot down in Leith here, and I've often seen it down in Leith docks. When I've been down there trying to get casual work, you know in Leith docks? And he just down, they're all in a big crowd . And a chap come out the offices and say right, you you you . So in actual fact it was always a favour cos I got the jobs. So to stop all that, this is with the b building trade, they had to guarantee them. So presumably that was quite a popular piece of er legislation? Legislation, oh definitely. Mhm. I've had s still operating now to present day, I don't know. Mm. What did you do erm after that? Well as a reach up up . In fact that's what I left from, I left from the job at job street in George street with the building trade. That's when I . And I work after that. But the site prepared to let me work, to carry on then as s they ma and I wouldn't claim my pension until I'd finished. And behind that, their reasoning for that is, for every year that I worked over my retir retireable age, there's a that is added to my pension. He says I haven't got you working long longer I worked the bigger the pension I have when I go out . So were you allowed to work er after your retireable age? Not, not at that particu when they got to hear about it. Mm. Of course they, they had questions of and he says oh well I've sat with him, the man's prepared working at Lambert, but no you can't allow the man to work after he's sixty and that was it. So that was me on. But the OAPs Were you involved in any erm political parties or anything er ? No no not necessary though, though I have done quite a wee bit just now er in support of my Labour Party, you know? Done quite a wee bit and I've been there at a few of their, quite a few of their meetings and erm a good friend of quite a few of the councils. And Lothian District Council. Quite a good friend of them you know and I'm a close contact with them. Is it just been recently that you've started to get involved ? Within the last ten years, I've been ten years activ actively concerned with the old aged pensioners' association and er the Labour movement. Mhm. D do y do you think there's a great difference between the Labour Party now and the Labour Party when you were working ? Ah well, more or less the same. They're more or less as a, I don't think there's a great lot of difference onl I d I, they're not pushing, they haven't the same, the, I would like to say, I would say they haven't the same interest in their union, they've not the same interests in the union as they had in the earlier days when there was a union. Mm. Did your involvement in the trade unions when you were young got lead to your, any involvement in the Labour Party or anything like that? Oh no, not necessarily through the union, no no. I've just had so solely an interest to defend myself. Ah but I believed if I'm going to discuss or argue about anything as regarding that I had to be interested in it. And to be interested you've got to attend your branch meetings and know what's going on. Whether it be a union branch meeting or any other branch meeting you had to be there and you had to know what you're talking about. Don't just go into these meetings and sat there like a dumbbell. You liked it, if you've been active at all you'd want to know what's going on. And the only way you can do that is b attending your branch meetings. I mean there's no, no use a man being employed and he's got a shop steward if he don't and depend on the shop steward coming down to tell him what happens in the meeting. My reply to these people, if they asked me what happened at the branch meeting I say, do you want to know what happened in the branch meeting? Yes, I said well attend them. So that was er that was my answer When you were er in the unions and you were a shop steward, did you find that you got a lot of people working in branch meetings? Well it wasn't too bad, it were not too bad from the, the firm that I oper I worked from. The firm that I worked from weren't too bad. But as I say as paying the er r I, I've seen them when I'm going round the site er I got an option from the firm, I'd be allowed time off my work, my actual work on the, on the, on the site, to go round and collect their unions dues. I'd got an option from the firm and they were very good that way. And I've seen them, whenever they see me come along, going away and trying to hide. But I say there's been a You mentioned the erm the National Association of Scottish Old Age Pensioners' Associations Scottish Old Age Pensioners' Association. What do they erm, that, what does that association do? Oh well wait a I'm just going to read first to you. the name of the association shall be the Scottish Old Age Pensioners' Association. The, the association shall be non party and non sectarian , you understand my meaning by that? That we advocate the immediate implementation of the Scottish Old People's Chapter, to strive to maintain and improve the standard of living of pensioners by ensuring that the pension will rise according to the cost of living or er or livings or earnings,which er whichever is the most advantageous . And number, and two,to press for the provision of suitable houses for old people at rents they can afford. And social services as may be required to ensure the welfare of the aged, as set out in our declaration of intent. In cooper in cooperation with bodies on all questions affecting the welfare of pensioners . That's er br Is it er was it a very large organization? Well we er it's a, it's a national organization in fact, it's, it's all over the country, all over er Scotland. From as far up as er In er Inverness down to the er borders. Er branches approximately thirty one branches in Edinburgh which I myself er er attend to. As far as the financial side of things goes. And er a g a good er and er, can be er the mi the name itself, the Scottish Old Age Pensions Association is not to be mistaken from er, sometimes it's misread as the Scottish Old Age Pensioners' Association. Now if you use that, that g gives the people the wrong impression that you must be a pensioner before you can join it, but this is not so. It's, it's known as the Scottish Old Age Pensions Association. Not the Scottish Old Age Pensioners' Association. You can join this association any time after the age of eighteen. Do you have a lot of er younger members? That's what we er we want, that's what we require, because don't forget old people er, in fact our present national treasurer, a Mrs Mary , is now serving as the national treasurer and has done for the last thirty five years. Still national treasurer and she's o well over eighty, she's still the national treasurer. Board of conference, every year for two, two days conference, and we go to different parts of the country, Aberdeen, Dundee, Glasgow, Stirling, you name it, we have conference in. It changes every year so we go to these conference and we fight on our declaration of intent, on pensions, pensions reviews, that's er reviewing a pension what we're trying to get for the government of the day to review the pensions every six months instead of at the present every year. are as an instance do that, the present government er last year, in fact since it some over, it was the seventy nine, er nineteen seventy nine. We were getting paid our pensions on the first week of Nove November. Now if anyone like to look at the present day and er pension book, they'll discover that since then, for the last three years, they've done the people of this country out of one week's pension every year. They've now, this government has actually made a, a fifty three year or a fifty four week year. Is it a very er lobby, Ooh yes yes yes. We're, I am up at least, anything from ten to twelve times a year up at Lothian regional council or the district council in deputations concerning, anything concerning the Old Age Pensions Associations. And has been imposed on old people of er Edinburgh and er . So the, they're, the old people have been been done o out of a lot of money. This year in itself, the single person has been done out of two pound ninety pence and er after the er older ones that's four pound odd. This year alone. So if you total it up,Be er again and first of all council being a, being a council, and they succeeded very well. And at the Leith, South Leith very very well and they just er district council. Was there a lot of that sort of feeling around, that sort of protestant action No no this one man this one, one man in the whole of Edinburgh district council was protestant tax. What er caused them to put that for the er group forward I could not tell you, but that's what he stood for, this protestant action. He was neither Liberal, Labour, Conservative, none of them, he was just, he Mm. What had been a er election representative until Er er an election agent,election agent when you're er a er d doing the work of an election agent, you've got to be responsible for all the data going out concerning the running of the election. Making sure that your candidate attends every meeting, for er s you know during er an election campaign they've got to attend all the meetings. Well the election agent was the man responsible for getting that data through to the, the candidate to say that you're speaking at a meeting, such and such a night, and another meeting at such and such so keeping the, keeps that candidate on his toes, all the time, during an election campaign until election's over and then of course er you know what transpires after that I su it's either Was you involved in the Labour Party for a long time before erm before you were the election agent? No. No no no no. No n never. Of course I had this spell er er don't forget I was five years as a prisoner of war, and a lot of interest because I was a union member pra b previous to that you see? Was this what erm led you to join the Labour Party? Your initials at a trade union Yeah yes, that was er actually yes er Mhm. I wanted to see how it o o operated politically. I'd heard a lot about er af er I've been in the Transport and General Workers' Union as a shop steward and so forth like that. That this was interesting me. I want to know, find out the workings of it, politically. What did erm how did you find the Labour Party at that time compares with the Labour Party now? Oh much better. W er united. It's not united at the present day, there are far too many lefts and rights and centres. If there's e if there any party's operating at all, there's only one p one thing and that's centre. No lefts, no rights, centre. United. And the same in most of our organizations in this country at the present day, and that's what's wrong. It's holding them back. When you've got a left, a right and a centre, you've got three different parties within a party. So the Labour Party got united then at that time? Oh definitely, very well united, yes. Then. But don't forget that was just after the war and er the Labour were beginning to build up, getting things better, run better country than they were previous p people. Did the Labour Party gain a lot of support after the war? Oh yes, aye they did oh. Oh aye proved it, they got in. E eventually they got into parliament. Erm now did your er Labour Party membership lapse after, after that time? Er yes it did lapse. Because I had seen my young brother-in-law and I says I'm gonna be like that then, didn't fe er feel any of this er at that time. Me,as the district council. I couldn't see myself doing it so as I said I wasn't going to make a fool of myself by putting my name as being nominated forward er as a candidate etcetera lose interest that's the first thing that happened because they knew I was an outspoken bloke. I knew spoke too much next nominee, next candidate for . And I felt it wasn't up to them, I didn't have enough experience I wanted to gain some more experience but it just fell away, lapse. And erm you're, you're not a member of the Labour Party again? No I'm not a member of the Labour Party yet. Oh. You see the pre the present system we've got Scottish Old Age Pensioners is non sectarian, non political. You understand? Is this er does that actually debar from belonging to er Oh I could have er er well it doesn't debar me but I feel it, it would it wouldn't be right, for me being a Labour Party member sitting on a, a non-segregated and non-political gr er ah association, Mhm. Now er you, you mentioned your, your pensions association. Now you're area treasurer, aren't you, for the Area treasurer, er Edinburgh area Can you tell me a bit about the organization and what its aims Well the aims I'll just read this and this says, this gives you most . This the name of the association shall be the Scottish Old Age Pensions Association. The association will be non party and non sectarian. One. That we advocate the immediate implementation of the Scottish Old People's Chapter to strive to maintain and improve the standard of living of pensioners by ensuring that the pension will rise according to the cost of living or earnings, whichever is er is the most ad advantageous. Two. To press for the provision of suitable houses for old people at rents they can afford. And social services as may be required to ensure the welfare of the aged as set out in the declaration of intent. To this end we employ all constitutional means in cooperation with similar bodies on all questions affecting the welfare of pensioners . That's, that's our aim. Aim and object of it. Where the,le let's say association was first formed on the thirteenth of February nineteen seven, nineteen thirty seven, so you can see by that date fifty years an established national organization for the whole of Scotland. What does the er the organization do? The organiz er organization doing is er fighting in every place where we think that there are o old aged pensioners being in er imposed upon in any way. Whether it be welfare, gas bills, housing, you name it and we're in there fighting to, to keep them above the water, their heads above the water. You go on about erm some of the experience you've had, some of the you've met. Well I er er er I've occasionally thing that was about last ye er year or the year before a as being a member of one of the, one of the lunch clubs. Er and er the Lothian region took over the lunch clubs when they took over er this two tier government in Scotland, you know? They took over the lunch clubs. And immediately they started raising the prices of the lunch clubs. Well we were up there one time er at the Lothian region and we to be up and tell that this was imposing higher things on, higher prices on both the bus buses, because they were raising the bus fares at the same time, and they were increasing the lunch club. Now the, the pensions when they raised at the same time, because we only pension raised every year, and we're up there at that particular time at the Lothian region, a full council meeting. And er we had told them that the q the quality of the food was reasonable. But the quantity the quantity of the food being issued in lunch clubs was very very u even disgraceful. I er er I serve our people with quantity of food that's supposed to be meant to be a dinner for an old old age person. And er they listened very carefully to us, in fact council of Kivanagh actually brought up a sample of the dinner they issued to old people and I, I did notice as soon as they put this sample on the table the opposition the c Conservatives and they still are, their heads bowed. They refused to look at it. And I would have thought that that was a disgraceful thing to do in a public, in the council to a, a sample being brought up and they were afraid to look at it. Their heads were actually downcast, they themselves were ashamed of it and yet they would not commit themselves to vote for it. Will you tell me a little about the erm the campaigns you've the erm the free erm travel on the buses Oh well the, the campaigns er I'm, I'm o I'm only speaking actually about the, down here in Leith I started my campaign for er the er let's see,campaign for er introd reintroduction of free travel for the elderly. The campaign was supposed to start with,a away back in the beginning of September. Well I by good luck have had some copies of the petition sent down to me, so I started it, it immediately and I had in the first they made over one thousand one hundred and twenty five signatures. In the first day. And I had er had given myself a target of five thousand for Leith so I turned up the next and made my five thousand in fact I made five thousand and fifty signatures for the h and I believe myself if, if every branch were doing the same as I had been doing then we would have no problem at all in getting a hundred thousand signatures which is our aim. And they said so at the er at the district council, went up to district and I asked for the support of the district council and er probably John immediately said, you have the full support of the district council for it he says and I'll ensure that you get support with the result I also received four posters direct from the Edinburgh District Council with John photograph on it and with the caption st stating every old age pensioner should be signing here. So that in itself was a great boost for me and it er it helped a lot. I also got support from er Labour Labour Party in Leith who sent down two volunteers to help me. So it's made a lot, a big difference too. I also had support from Lance house and from er Leith community centre. So I wasn't, I wasn't doing it all on my own, you understand my meaning? I weren't doing it all although I sort of organized it. And when I took, I had to report back to area control I was immediate I got immediate applause. But I just said I don't want any applause for this at all, I feel that every pensioner, every pensioner should sign it whether they belong to the association or not. Whether they have a senior citizens' club with the association. If they want the free bus passes they've got to something done about themselves and . One of my in fact was I can remember, I went up when I was first er paying for paying for an annual ticket with their bus passes and eight pound for a single ticket for us er for our quarterly ticket. I was up there three days campaigning, objecting to this that I'm being charged and believe me for those three days I stood right in Queen Street, just outside the offices there, and at no, any time during, at any particular time of day, you could have come along to me, and there were still one thousand five hundred people standing there, rain, hail, sleet or blow. For their tickets, and I said at the area council if they had turned up like they turned up to pay them thirty pound and eight pound, if they'd turned up at the same time with a petition form what a difference it would What kind of erm reaction do you get from the different political parties to your campaign? Oh well, well er most of us are b even, even the Tories themselves know, they know that we're fighting for the old people, but do they we get the same old reply from them, where is the money coming? That's the s o o reply, and that is all cos because of the central go government support grant who are naturally younger. They're responsible for the, for the present that they keep, they keep sending us this and that minister,and that. But they're, they're the gov they're going to end up in the government. They're going to govern the country, they cut the money off from they cut the support grant from the, the from the district council, and still are, still are, and there's going to be even bigger cuts the next year. Going to be even bigger cuts the ne and it's en there no used to Lothian Regional Council Hall and district council. If the Lothian Regional C Council can't get their money from a from, a central government, where are they going to get it from? So erm do you get a lot of support from the Labour Party for your campaign? Oh every time, without fear wherever you are er Labour's Scottish Commons gives full support to the Scottish Old Age Pensions Association's pensions policy. That's from our own, we also have the Trades Union Congress with the same. And that's when I say we have a, a campaign which is going to, it's a demonstration and er and rally in the end of March, of next year. When we will be marching off probably from Regents Street, proceeding along Queens er Princes Street . And then we've got us a we're going to the cinema. And that's a, and that's them all over the country, not only Edinburgh, all over the country, in north south east and west and you name it. And we have branches, but we could have a lot more because the amount of branches we have, although we have a lot of branches of Scottish Old Age Pensions we are not old age pensioners are not united, they're not united, the only way they can be united, if it's a national organization, join your national organization and fight the government. You can't do so locally, if you're all working separately. You've got to unite and get in the one gives us strength to fight them. Is er how large is your organization? Nationally. Well I er th well I couldn't, I'm not in a position to give the, the total because the national, the national treasurer would be able to you see? And as I said, Mrs Mary she's the national treasurer and has been for over thirty years. That woman's now approaching eighty three, eighty four years of age and she's still national treasurer, so it gives you a sort of sample of the, the kind of people they have at the top, who are really their heart and soul in it. pensioner themselves who would sit down and think, now take for instance assuming that I wouldn't be a member of that just so surely a, a senior citizens' club. Now you go into a seniors citizens' club, you enter your name and you get registered in the register, you get your cup of tea and then you get social activity. I remember thinking si sit down and say and where do we get this money pay for this tea, and this money pay for the registration. Where do you get it from? A voice says it's solely from my pension,quite able and get enough to give to join the association at less than a penny a week. Do you find you get a lot of erm resonance from old age pensioners when you ask them to join. Are a lot of them er quite prepared to fight to get their erm Oh the the members the members who are members of the branches are prepared to fight, but it's not them I'm er I'm the other people who are er they're gaining from our fight, they're gaining from our fight. where we've tried, we've tried to keep a reasonable pension for them. But they're not fighting because they've nobody no, national officials to fight for them. We, we have the only national organization to f er that goes on to fight for goes, goes to parliament and fights for them. Have you had any erm any sort of successes in your campaigns that you've run? Oh yes oh well er er is just across in fact is across the border. Everyone got free passes over there. Has that just been in re-instituted lately? Yeah, oh aye. By just . It's only within the last couple of year, and then oh no you cannae do a certain of the er it was actually our vice president at the started the campaign over in Fife, and they won through. And there again the supported the, both the region and their district council. And here we have the calling under er an administration you know who they are and they're hanging their heads every time you speak, you speak to them. They're ashamed of themselves but they're afraid to admit it. They're afraid of, ashamed of themselves and they do to the old people. And they're afraid to admit it. They've all got somet an, an evasion or a counter argument with you. And it's general to fail. I've bought, I've, I've, as I say, when I pay my have you got a mother and father? . And they ne er never never answers it direct, never answers it direct. What's that got to do with it? Never comes out with anything like that just,got another one ,answer you. Can you tell me about the er incident that happened when you went to meet erm Brian at the council offices? Oh yes, at that particular time, I will tell you that once again er, that was er I was supposed to go for an interview and this was er for the er declaration of intent of,wh which was er supposed to er supposed to be given every year to both the Lothian Regional Council and the District . And this is happened all over the country, each area are doing the same thing and all of this this er produce this declaration of intent and ask the, the head of the er council to put it to their members and get the support of their members. Now the r the reason for us doing that is that if they do accept it, they are duty bound as a council to write to Prime Minister, Prime Minister, direct, saying they support the declaration of intent. Cos every, cos really the should go direct to her, and it as she's taken notice of you yet. All, all it does it comes round and er er Regional Council, say no we support she's got to think,. Well that's the idea of, anyway we're going back to Brian and er accepted that he would accept the d the deputation,showing there was three of us, there was the m the president of the area council, myself and the secretary. Well we er duly arrived down at quarter to ten as twenty six of September this year. And we went up there and we had just we'd, we took the labour rooms and er of course we had got a cup of tea with them you know? And in comes Councillor the leader of the Labour group, you see? Well lads, he says, I'm sorry you'll have to wait another hour. Course naturally we, we asked why? What was the matter? He says er I've just had a phone call from Brian , he can't meet you until eleven o'clock. An an of course and naturally I says well why, why is he getting ? Is he in the building? No, he says, his car's broken down. I says what a bloody excuse, I says and his car broke down, shh bloody corporation buses here, why doesn't he use a corporation bus to get in? Why doesn't he ph ring for his bloody chauffeur? Or his k . Why doesn't he get that? No. No he says er that, that's er that's all I can tell you er that's, he wouldn't until eleven o'clock,come. And er immediately he went there was, somewhere around about eleven o'clock he . Right,that deputation of er old age pensioners. So we immediately walk through and he's all, all . Very pleased to meet you, no no . Now he says er, what is this now, and of course immediately the president says, well you know happens er Mr , can we says you've read it before, you see? And so the our declaration of intent, you've read of before, you know what we're up here. And of course er once he read it and er put it down and scribbled in his notes. Agrees with so and so and agrees with this and agrees with that. First of all,Mr can I ask you a question? I says how come you deputation, you gave us a time of which to be here, now we said, we turned up a quarter hour beforehand and I says we get a phone call er a an intermission from Councillor that you couldn't make it because that your car broke down. He says that's right. Er , that's alright, let's behave ourselves, I says what about us, we've been here since quarter to ten waiting for you to come. You . You're not the one who's got to . I says what was wrong with you not on a corporation t er a corporation bus? And he didn't know where to look. But eventually he, he, he again when time we started and then he moved on to it, back on to declaration of intent, and they pulled him up and took . He didn't agree with er h no, he read a part of one of the d declaration of in one of resolutions, that a substantial concessionary fare would be alright. And that's what you're getting here so as far as I'm concerned . I says you're picking holes, you're picking holes and I says I'll tell you what, that declaration of intent is last year's declaration of intent. I says a new declaration of intent has not yet been printed. I says but you'll find next year when we approach you with this declaration you'll find it's been changed to free passage and where will your argument be then? . Proper gent mi mind, don't get me wrong. Er he'll, he's a good fighter and a good, a good, a good but there's certain points you can pick holes . Somebody once said that if angelism, sharing the gospel was one beggar telling another beggar about bread, where it could be found and undoubtedly when he was saying that he was thinking of that story that account that we had read to us earlier from the second book of kings, chapter seven, and I'd like us to er turn back to us for a few moments this morning and perhaps draw some lessons for ourselves Sometimes as Christians its very easier for us to say what sins are, and we can see other people's failings, you don't have to be a Christian to do that of course, plenty of other people can do that, they see the failings of other people, they see the wrong doing they do, they see their wickedness their, their waywardness, whatever words we want to use to describe it, and we say well that is sin, perhaps for most of us this morning we could make er a list a, a, a tabulate a table of sins and we might say well they are worse sins and there are lesser sins and I would I suppose by and large there would be a fairly reasonable consensus of opinion regarding what was sins and what were not sins. Sometimes the bible surprises us a little bit of course, and it puts it finger on things that we perhaps don't really want to talk about or we don't even consider as sins and the bible is quite clear that not all sins are what we do often there what we don't do in parable that Jesus told concerning the traveller, the man who went down to Jericho, we don't condemn the priest and the levite for what they did, but we do condemn them for what they didn't do, their sin was not what they did, it was what they left undone, going over and looking at the man was very note worthy, as least there was some interest there and we don't condemn them for that, but we do condemn them for hurrying along and not reaching out and helping the man in the Pistol of James and chapter four and verse seventeen James says there, any one then who knows the good he ought to do and doesn't do it, sins so the sins that you and I comment or the sins rather that we are guilty of are not just the things that we do there of times the things that we don't do and sometimes there more difficult for us to put a finger on, we can justify them so very easily its been said that all it needs for evil to triumph, is for good men to say or to do nothing well lets look at the, that,illu illustration there that we have in the second book of kings. As I mentioned early the, the city of Sermaria it was under siege and the army of Seria was encamped all around it, Ben Hadad was a great warrior, he would of been the, the Alexander or the Napoleon of his day and he had set up this encampment around the city of Sermaria, nobody could get in, nobody could get out and very quickly the stocks of food and water er were used up, rationing would of been introduced but it only lasted for a certain period, they'd got to the stage it tells us in the previous chapter that er, that a donkeys head was sold for eighty shekel's of silver and some folk had even got to the, had sunk to the level of cannibalism, of eating their own children and the city was, when they heard about this they were in an uproar and they started blaming god and in between the city of Sermaria of all its suffering and hopelessness and helplessness and the army encamped about with all of their supplies, there was this area of no mans land in which they were caught up four men who were leapers and they were trapped there, they didn't want to go over to the Serians because they'd be killed, they didn't want to go back into the city because they weren't allowed there and any way what was the point, they'd only die of starvation in there and so these four men are caught up in no man's land and yet their no better off than people in the city, now god had promised deliverance, through his serve and Eliger he had promised deliverance, Eliger said tomorrow about this time a measure of fine flour shall be sold for a se shekel and two measures of barley for a shekel in the gate of Semaria, he said the gates are gonna be open, there's gonna be food and its gonna be a reasonable price and it says the royal officer who's hand the king was leaning on said the man of god said behold, if the lord shall make windows in heaven could such a thing be, he said don't talk stupid man, how can such a thing happen for us?, he didn't believe what god servant said and Eliger brings out to him a terrible judgment, he says because of your unbelief you will see it, but your not participate in it but lets look at these four men for a moment, cos that's where our real interest lies this morning, I just wanted to say three things in their experience, the first things is that they were amazed that, at what they found, because after they come together and they talk about it and they said well what shall we do and they weighed the pro's and the cons and Semaria doesn't look very attractive with its cannibalism, they said well the least if we stay here were gonna die, if we go into Semaria we'll die, lets go down to the Serein camp, the worse they can do to us is put us to death and were dying men any way, but they may just take pity on us, we maybe allowed to grope around in their dustbins and get some scraps of food, they may at least allow us that, and so they make their way down just as evening is falling, they make their way down to the Serein lines and when they get there, they are amazed at what they find, you see their condition was helpless and hopeless, they were dying men any way, they were lepers, but they were dying of starvation, that was far more imminent than their leprosy, their problems and their needs were greater than themselves, they could not meet their own needs, their problems and their needs were greater than their government, the king in Semaria and all of his court could not meet the needs of his people and then in verse five, we read something there, they arose at twilight to go to the camp of Aramians or the Serein's and when they came to the outskirts of the camp of the Serein's behold there was no one there, they expected to at least meet a guard, there would surely be somebody on sentry duty even if the rest of the soldiers had gone in to their tents and were perhaps getting ready for their, for the evening, going to bed or whatever they were gonna be doing, having their evening meal, there would at least be somebody on guard duty, but when they got there, there was no one there, god had stepped in, god had intervened and the good news of the Christian gospel is that god has intervened in our, in the midst of our helplessness, in the midst of our hopelessness, god has intervened, he had stepped in to history, so often you'll hear folks say, well why doesn't god do something, why does god allow this to happen, why does god allow that one, why doesn't he do something all they really show by that comment is their own ignorance, because god has done something, god has intervened, listen to what it says in John three sixteen, for god so loved the world that he gave, he's only son and the er, the er apostle Paul and he's writing to the Gallations, in chapter four and in verses four and five hear what he says there,but when the time had fully come god sent his son, born of a woman, born under law to redeem those under law that we might receive the full rights of son, er of sons , god has done something, he's sent his son Jesus Christ into this world in fact his done the greatest thing he could do, he has done the very ultimate thing, he has sent his son into the world that's the greatest intervention god could ever have made, it was far greater than, than just intervening in sm , in some small local event, were you see some catastrophe happening and you say well why doesn't god do something there, or there's a war situation going on in some other part of the world, well why doesn't god step in and stop it, god has stepped in, not in a local situation, not in some er passing problem or need but he's stepped into the greatest way possible by sending his son Jesus Christ into the world to dye for men and woman, to take away sin, to pay the price that god's righteousness demands for sin so god has intervened and his intervention has changed the whole situation, its brought a whole new complexion on things, its changed the colour completely, no longer is the world now under darkness and in, and in pending judgment in doom, because Jesus Christ came and he took that judgment and that, that condemnation upon himself, he said I've not come to condemn the world he said its already condemned, its already under judgement, the sword of Damocles is already hanging over the world and Jesus Christ came in and to take that judgment and that condemnation on himself and when he died there on the cross and rose again, there came that burst of light in a world that had been shrouded in blackness and darkness, a world that had been shrouded in sin suddenly for the first time sees the light, god has paid for himself the price of sin, god has intervened and changed the whole situation and the message of the gospel is that if you and I allow that intervention to effect us personally, then like those four men surely we too are amazed at what we've found. If we've come to guard and received forgiveness of sins, if we have become good followers of Jesus Christ and we are not amazed then there's something wrong with what we've received that god should so love, not just the world, but should so love me, that he gave his son to die for me and that was the sort of er discovery that these four lepers made they've come down there, they've found that the sight before them was amazing, there was no enemy there, the enemy had disappeared and the tents with all their contents were there before them, they were amazed with what they found and you and I when we come to god through Jesus Christ, we are amazed at what we find, we find forgiveness, we find the restoration of a relationship between ourselves and god, we find an access to receive god's blessing to receive his favour, to receive his gifts that he has for us, no wonder the apostle Paul cries out thanks beyond to god for his unspeakable gift, but then again these four men they were not just amazed that what they found, they were, they got absorbed in what they got, because they got a lot more than they bargained for, they possibly in their wildest dreams thought they might at least get, get what the cook was throwing out, they might get to, to the dustbins, they might get what was left over, that would of been great, they were dying of starvation, the driest mouldiest crust would of been like, like a banquet to them, but they got so much more than they anticipated and they got absorbed in it, every thing was there's for the taking as they pulled back the, the flap of the tent as they go in and they see the tables laid out there, they see the food and the drink, they see the plenty, these men who for weeks have known terrible poverty, there might of been a time earlier on in the siege when a few scraps got thrown over the city wall, when the bins were put out the side of the city of an evening, er they would go there and forage amongst them, but all that had stopped long since and it was only the bits and pieces that they managed to forage for themselves and get for themselves that they'd been eating of late, but here every thing is there for the taking, they rubbed their eyes, they pinched one another to make sure their not dreaming, it really is food and drink in a, in an abundance they couldn't of thought of a few mo hours earlier one moment they had nothing, the next they've got every thing, what was it they needed, food, the tables would of been laden with it, it was the food, enough food for an army and there's only four of them, did they, were they thirsty, here was drink, here was wine and, and drink in abundance the rags, the tatters they were dressed in, there were garments and wardrobe full of clothes here for them, did they need money, well the tents were full of the gold and the silver and, and, and valuables, there were a sufficiency, every thing was there you know the idea that the Christian life is drab and poor is such a terrible false hood, its an iniquitous lie of the devil, the tragedy is that we have actually often made it that way, we have made the Christian faith something drab, something boring, something for old folk er and er you know, people who are, who are, just wanting a crutch because their coming to the end of their natural life and we've made it something drab and dull listen to what the apostle Paul says when he's writing to Carinthian's in his second letter in chapter eight, he says you know the grace of our lord Jesus Christ, that though he was rich for your sakes he became poor, so that you through his poverty might be rich, god, he's purpose follows his people, he's not that we've a drab, grey, dull uninteresting life, Jesus said I've come that you might of life, and that more abundant, that in all its fullness and god has purpose for us, and when Paul is talking about riches there, he's not talking about pounds and pence, he's talking about the richness of the life that we enjoy its not a case of not doing this and having to do that the other thing, its a case of enjoying life as god purposes it, as god intends it you know if you don't enjoy your Christian life now, let me tell you your in for a rude awakening when you get to heaven, because the quality of life is not gonna change the only things that'll change is its la it, it will, it will be in his presence, the quality of life will not change because already now we have received eternal life, he has given his life to us and he hasn't got some other special, you know, super duper life laid up, there's nothing, there's nothing greater ahead, god hasn't got any thing greater for us than what he's already given to us in embryonic form here and now why if we take on er a, a, a dazzling scintillating new zest and zap when you get to heaven, that life is already given to you and to me know go back to these four men at the moment, they had never known any thing like this before this was better than all their birthdays rolled into one, this was the greatest day in their experience and if they would live to be a hundred they would never know another day like this, they were having a tremendous time, it said they, they, they, they went into one tent, listen to what they did, they went into one tent and they, they ate, they drank, they had a party and they carried from there the silver, the gold and the clothes and they went and hid they returned and entered another tent and then they did the same there, they were having a tremendous time, this was a beano to end all beano's, this was the greatest day in their life, they were having a wonderful time and why shouldn't they, why not you know there are folk who would, who'd want to make us as Christians er and er, ee, put us into a straight jacket the bible tells me even the sunsets free, is free indeed and I don't see any suggestions as I read the New Testament, that first of all the life of Jesus was drab and uninteresting, or that he expects me as his follow to lead a drab, a grey life, oh its not always gonna be a ple an easy life but that doesn't reduce the, the zest and the excitement in it but you see the danger is when having a good time is the reason for living and the only reason for it, you see, if god has intervened in our life, if the message of the gospel is true, if god in Christ has taken away your sin and made you in Christ a new creation then you have every reason to enjoy life, in a sense your only able to start enjoying life now, you may have enjoyed some of the things that, that folks suggest that make up life, but they've finished, there gone, what happens when the, when, when the wine has run out, what happens when the parties over, you know all about it the next day, don't you, what happens then, its such short lived, its only worth having whilst its coming to you all the time, but that's not so with a Christian life, because it doe , depend on just the things that we have or the experiences that we go through, because it is something that, that we have within, it is, it is a quality of life that we possess, because we possess the one who is life himself, listen to what Paul says when he's writing to Timothy in his first letter in chapter six it is command those who are rich in this present world not to be arrogant or to put their hope in wealth, those who think that, that er in having possessions that is the secret of life or, or in having a good time and, and, and the rest of it that is what life is all about, he said warn them not to do that, because that is so uncertain, he says but to put their hope in god who richly provides us with every thing what for, for our enjoyment, why has god given us these things, why is, why is god even, he is natural creation there for us, it is for our enjoyment, its not to make us miserable or to make us grey and drab and burden by it, it is for us to enjoy, when god created Ada Adam and Eve and put them in the garden, the, they were told to enjoy it, even the fruit enjoy it, its there for your benefit and then the new creation, every thing that god has provided is there for our enjoyment, but the dangers is when that enjoyment, is the reason for living and that's all we do it for and were so taking up with ourselves, I am gonna have my good time, I'm gonna enjoy myself as a Christian and I can do it and you can do it, you become insular and we become introverted and the only thing that matters is me having a good time, my world centres around me and me enjoying myself and me having this and me having that, this blessing and that gift and that other blessing, we become self centred and taken up with our own good times, as long as I can be there in the centre, as long as I can go from, from, from this celebration to that celebration, as long as I can go from this er festival to that festival to this special meeting to that one, I'm gonna have my good time well that was what these fella's were doing, they were going from tent to tent, from celebration to celebration having a great time and then the truth hit them they were ashamed with what they had done, they said to one another we are not doing right, this days a day of good news, but we are keeping silent, if we wait until morning light punishment will overtake us, now therefore, come, let us go and tell the kings household how guilty are we, how guilty are you, how guilty am I of the sinner silence, remember how we started, its not always the things that we do its often the things that we don't do, how guilty are we of the sin of silence these men had known nothing, known poverty and, and, and, and starvation, they were amazed at what they'd found, they'd became absorbed in what they had got and now they'd became ashamed of what they had done with it what was the sin that troubled these men they said we are keeping silent. Back in the city there were thousand of people doomed, dying and all unnecessarily because here was plenty, here was sufficient for the whole city and possibly the greatest sin that you and I can be guilty of and that the church is generally guilty of, but you know when we talk about the church generally its, its so easy because that's general, you and I that are the church, not the denomination, not the organization, it you and I, possibly the greatest sin that we can be guilty of is the sin of silence, I'm not talking now about a rude, belligerent, discourteous, butting hole, button holding of people, I'm not talking about that, I don't see any place in gods word for that sort of attitude or that sort of approach but are we still silent, what about with those with whom we have the right, because we've created a relationship, because they know us and they've seen us and they've seen the experiences we've gone through and they've seen what god has done in our lives, what about with those people do we wait for others to do it, shifting the responsibility. thinking in, in, in the context of our, of our mission, this town wide mission, well that's Billy's job, he's better at it than I am, but its not his job, its my job as much as its his and its your job as much as its mine, we do not well to keep silent these men they were troubled by their sin of silence, perhaps you and I should be troubled by our sin of silence because the extension of that, and here's the really great thing, as far as they were concerned, the ex the, the ongoing because they were troubled by their sin of silence and they did something about it, they were thrilled at the sight that they saw, as they see the city being delivered, and as they see starving men and women eating food perhaps for the first time in days or weeks, buying good wholesome food at a reasonable price, that was the sigh that thrilled them and you can imagine them, and I think they'd be entitled to a little bit of pride that I'm glad we told them, I'm glad we went back and shared the news apart from any thing we couldn't of coped with all ourselves, it would of been so wrong to of kept it, it would of been so wrong just to of eaten it ourselves, I'm glad we went back and told them. Jesus said just before he was living his disciples, his followers, you and me, he said you shall receive power after the holy spirit has come upon you and you shall be witnesses unto me yes we witness by our life but there's a danger in making that a cop out, because one other requirement of a witness is that they talk, they've gotta say what they know, these four men were good witnesses, they went back and they told the city what they had found, and there's placed upon you and me that responsibility to go back and to tell what we've found, this is a day of good tidings, we do wrong to keep silent. My name is Les , I work for Wiltshire County Council. What follows is a meeting of the Wiltshire County Council's Policy and Resources Committee held on Tuesday twenty-fifth January 1994. on the agenda is membership changes. Since the last meeting the following have ceased to be members of this committee. Mr , Mr , Mrs , Mr , Mr , and have been replaced by Mr , Mr , Mrs , Mr , Mrs . Membership of the committee today is therefore Mr , Mr , Mrs , Mr , Mr , Mrs , Miss , Miss , Mr , Mrs , Mr , Mrs , Mr , Mr , Mr , Colonel , Mrs , Mrs , Mr , Mr , Mr , Mr , Mrs , Mr , Mr . Second item on the agenda is election of chairman could I have nominations please . Mr Is there a seconder for Mr ? Are there any other nominations? Mr is elected chairman yeah, look yeah, I'm just yeah, yeah The next item is the election of vice chairman erm, do you wish to defer this item? anybody not? That is deferred. Next item is apologies no apologies Item five chairman's announcement, there are two. Number one is British National Corpus, members will have received a letter from the chief executive enclosing details about the British National Corpus, the B N C have sought permission to tape the Wiltshire County Council's Committee meeting, and it was suggested to them and they have agreed to tape today's proceedings. I hope no member objects to the recordings, but if anyone does the recording will not take place. Is everyone agreeable to the recording of today's proceedings? aye Are there any against? That is agreed. Second announcement is the Victoria county history exhibition, I wish to bring to members attention bring members attention to the Victoria county history exhibition currently taking place in the old county hall foyer. I hope members will find time to visit this exhibition which is on today, tomorrow and Thursday. Item six attendance of non- members of the committee. Mr in respect of item seventeen the environmental strategy Thank you. Item seven, members allowances, cash limits. erm I'll like to deal with this in a if possible in a number of separate motions so that we can deal with the various bits of work that need to be done, but I'll call Mr first Thank you chair, erm, in likelihood that I, I mean you may wish to these separately as well but I'll group wish to see, is to, a is to approve an extension of the maximum aggregate by five per cent, b officers continue to monitor expenditure reporting to group leaders monthly and c officers and group leaders look into the allowance scheme to see if any suitable alterations need to be made. Yes, erm, I had in mind that, is there a seconder to that?my own view is that erm, and that goes for most of the way for dealing with the problem, but I think it would be appropriate for this committee to make it clear that erm, any extension of the maximum aggregate for the current financial year will be met by an appropriate reduction or a corresponding reduction in the expenditure for ninety four ninety five, erm and I'm not certain that that's absolutely clear to the public or indeed to all members of Chair as you say it is legally required I mean if, if, if, if the principal of the five per cent is acceptable then if you wish to qualify the being put in from the words you said then that is acceptable by the labour group. Okay, but I just wanted to go on to say that I think in reviewing how the budget may be brought more closely under control in the coming year, officers will need to look at the erm size of the committees because we are working with committees at the moment that are larger than those committees which used to exist when this year's budget was set and that has had some impact and we need to have the implications of any change of committee size whether that might affect the budget, how that would affect the budget, also whether there is any potential for reducing the number of committees further and also whether the rates might be changed, I particularly would like officers to report on what, whether there would be any significant saving from er setting the rates at the round figures they were at a couple of years ago erm Ten pound and twenty pound and twenty-five pound which apart from anything else I found easier to remember when filling out a form, but I think that may think it's not worth doing. I think the most important thing is to make clear, I'm hoping to make clear somewhere that next year this council will have a members allowance budget which is one and a half percent more than this year, at the maximum, and it may not even have that I'm not certain that we've agreed that with the policy committee, I don't know if anybody knows if we have Yes We have, well I would erm, let's see how do we do this, we've got a motion on the floor, erm, anybody else? Mr Chairman I have an amendment to that motion, because, because I believe it's important that we start to identify a lot of councils publish at the end of the year for public consumption a list of the allowances drawn by members, and I think that would be very useful and I would make, as an amendment, I would, would add to the proposal put by Mr that we call for a report to be pu er, to be presented to us of the amounts of allowances drawn by members, each member would you accept that, that should be for the financial year ? More than happy chairman that, that, that it should be that Can I, can I, If I, If there's a second can I speak to my I view with considerable concern erm, what has happened since May, in, in the field of allowances. Over the last few years the members allowances have been reduced, er, er have been underspent quite considerably on the amount that's been allowed. Each year the amount has gone up by inflation, and yet we see something approaching thirty thousand underspent on previous years, and here we are looking in the first year of this council to a, a, at least a five percent overspend and er, I wonder if we've erm, excluded the time when there weren't many meetings at the beginning if we wouldn't have seen a considerably larger overspend. I'm, in my own mind, I'm sure this is due to a proliferation of working parties, extra committee meetings a ,a , and seminars, and I personally think it's typical of when your party get anywhere near control that there is always more talking and less action, but I do believe that we ,we , we're, we are not looking good in the eyes of the public in this overspending of our own allowances. I think you've got to do something drastic, at the end of last year a considerable number of working parties and committees were actually reduced or eliminated, and I look at education and I look at the sub- committees of education, they've all been replaced by working parties now that meet more and more regularly. We can't go on paying ourselves that sort of money, we can't go on, and Mr I know in a minute we'll talk about the number of people who attend committee meetings erm and sit in on them, and that's increased considerably, erm, so I think it's important that we do get down to this problem, we grasp the nettle, and I, I believe that will mean that we start to look seriously at reducing the number of times members come and talk here, and perhaps we let the officers get on with the action that they should be getting on with Thank you chairman, erm, I've heard what Mr said then I think it is worth reminding ourselves that a significant number of members of this council are new to this council and it's therefore quite right and proper that in the first year of the business of this council that there should be a significant number of seminars and briefings to enable members to fully acquaint themselves with the business of the council the working of the er, operations of this council so that we can in fact make informed decisions er in the future. I entirely accept that if er, four years on we were still doing the same thing that then they'd be er, some erm, requirement for er, cutting back but I think it is also worth reminding ourselves that due to the action of this conservative government in er, forcing the local government review, er, we are facing the spectre er, of an additional full meeting of this council, and indeed we have had to er, respond to that government initiative. So it's by no means only er, arising from the erm, need to get on with the business of the council, some of the work that we're facing at the present moment has been forced on us er, through no fault of our own because of Government action. Thank you chairman, I, I second er 's motion, erm trying to be not political about this I got some figures from the er county council which indicate that from the first of April ninety-two to the thirty-first of December ninety-two eighty-six members attended committee meetings of which they were not members. From the first of April ninety-three to the thirty-first of December ninety-three, that figure is a hundred and sixty-five, so therefore it, it, it's doubled in effect. Now if you assume that they were paid somewhere between a half-day allowance and a full-day allowance, you're probably looking at somewhere up towards fifteen hundred pounds. Now there are occasions where members legitimately need to attend committees to speak to something in which they have an interest but the difficulty is, that in the past when we had permanent chairman, a member who wanted to attend the meeting had to ask the permission of that permanent chairman and there are occasions when that permanent chairman thought, well, there is no need for that member to attend and he has said no. In the present situation, the officers find themselves in a very difficult position, I cannot imagine an officer saying no to a member and this is what has happened if we run out of money, then the very thing that we are seeking to do, in other words to implement the democratic process to allow people to come to meetings and speak will go by the way, and I can remember some time ago when I was a new member on here saying I would be prepared to attend property sub-committee briefings as a deputy and not be paid and I was very smartly brought up by a friend in the labour group who said that's all right for you, you can afford it, but it's not alright for some of us 'cause we can't. and the difficulty is if we run out of money and we either have to stop the allowances or we have to slash the allowances, yeah, knows who it was, we have to slash the allowances, then legitimately people will be able to say that the democratic process is being stifled because they are not going to be allowed to go to meetings, and therefore, I think that situations whereby a member attends to speak to a, an item, a specific item and then stays on for a double length meetings and claims double length allowances that sort of thing has got to be stopped, and also members attending just to nod approval at something that has happened that they've been associated with, that should stop, if they want to come they should come at their own expense. But if we're not careful, the real people, the real people who should be are going to be the losers, because they would not be able to draw the attendance allowance which they need to attend. So, I mean what I'm saying is that I think we should have a league table if you like of, of attendances, I, I recognise that that may not be popular, but I think it's going to be one way of sorting out those people who attend every opportunity, and sometimes just to pat an officer on the back. This is not something that attendances allowance should be, should be used to pay for, and I think that unless we look at it very carefully indeed, and we perhaps get around to having a proper chairman for each committee instead of this sort of er, bugginses chart er, we're going to be faced with, with lots of difficulties. I wish you two lots over there would get your act together so that people who chair the meetings were of the right calibre for a chairman and not just because it was their turn. Hear hear Yes, let's not open up the debate about chairmanship of meetings er, got a couple more people Yes, thank you chairman. Obviously one of the er, critical things is actually reduce the er, length of time at meetings, er, with that in mind I'll be very quick. unclear As I say when you become a councillor you do not do it for money, I mean I think probably to be a better reason to become a councillor these days. It affects your job, your job prospects, your family life and the hidden costs, such as letters, telephone calls leaflets and the rest of it, you do not do it for money. You seem to be sort of trying to encourage a guilt complex by this, this idea put forward by the conservatives, which is not the case, people should not feel guilty in trying to do the benefit that they can to benefit the people of Wiltshire. And I also don't think that there's any need for this extra recommendation in most commonwave that a question, and that is to actually find out the expenses claim by individuals. written question or shall we give them a written answer? There's no need to actually to put it down as a recommendation that stays forever more, there's just no need for it. The other things I'd like to put forward is the things that Mr actually put forward, the idea of reducing committee sizes, reducing committee numbers. Perhaps maybe a cut off time for when a meeting should finish, which I think we'd all dearly love, maybe that very common in business, maybe it's about time we put it into council life as well, so those of progress, not trying to make people feel guilty but trying to serve the people they represent. Mr Mr chair. Erm, I seem to find myself in this committee in a minority of one. It's a little like listening to those debates in parliament where parliament vote themselves extra salaries and I feel very uncomfortable in this process, I thought I might be coming here this morning to disagree with my own group, or those members of them that don't agree with me, perhaps joined with the conservatives in opposing this motion, but I find in fact that everybody is saying oh let's put up the er, the heading, I feel very uncomfortable with this having spent six months in the budget review, criticising officers up hill and down dale every time that they exceeded their budget, having told them that either they balance their budget or that they came in next year with a budget with no more than a one and a half percent increase, or their successors would be doing it for us. I feel very uncomfortable therefore, to sit in a room full of members, sitting here proposing to add five percent to the limit for members allowances, simply because we've been unable to control our own behaviour, and to come in within that, I think it's a very poor example, and it's an example that I'm not prepared to set. I am going to vote against the motion, I'm disappointed with the liberal group not come in with a more constructive amendment or even a proposal, as I would say asked you to do. I'm even more disappointed in the conservatives, for not opposing it, I don't object to their list of members being published, I don't see that that would do any harm, as far as I'm concerned, every employee could have their wages printed up on the wall. We are elected by the public to do a job and we shouldn't be ashamed of the amount of money that we're paid for it, and what I would say is, that no manifesto in May's election said we were going to come here and vote for more money for members, nobody put on their leaflets, vote for me and I will raise members allowances by five percent in the coming year, I didn't and I won't support that, and you will argue, perhaps some of you that that's not really what we're doing, but it look's like it, doesn't it? And I think it's close enough to looking like it that the public may believe it, and I hope the public won't believe it, but certainly I'm not prepared to allow them to think it of me, and therefore I will vote against the motion. Okay, Mr Thank you Mr chairman, just one point Mr , we're not voting ourselves five percent more, we're taking five percent off next year's allowance and putting it to this one so it's a negative rollover, so we're actually spending some of next year's money this year. The point I'm going to make is that erm, if we aren't going to get through the year and we're all going to have to take a percentage of our March allowances because the money's run out and we're cash limited even if we give ourselves five percent extra, erm, could I get an assurance from the officers that the people that haven't put in their forms will get a note to remind them to do so, so that everybody is in there, you won't suddenly find that because you haven't had your claim form in by the fourteenth you're gonna get nothing and everybody else is gonna get something. Thank you, I think actually we've been debating Mr 's amendment which seems to have widespread approval and I was ready to put that to the vote. Mr I was just going to settle up to you, that was it. I think that just a few points that needs to be made. First of all I think at the end of the day that we all know a democracy never comes cheap, it's erm, there are cheaper alternatives for administering decisions, but erm, but dictatorship doesn't go well and therefore democracy will never come cheap. I do agree that there are some particular areas this year that are for concern. There has been, I think has put it adequately very well, that there are members who've turned up really for no real reason but to speak on a minor item which members of their group could've taken on their behalf, and therefore erm, I, I do support that we need to look at that particular issue, and I think that can be dealt with under the present chairs arrange arrangement without having to have permanent chairs. I also support the proposal to have a list published, I know who's gonna be top of the list, it's possibly going to be me, and I'm not ashamed of that so erm,let's go ahead and do it, 'cause it is public money, and the public have a right to know where that money's going, so I'm not ashamed of that. I think that also that said to me at the point that there is, people need to er, be paid attendance because otherwise you deny people the opportunity to be able to stand for council,there , otherwise you are going to end up with those that are either rich or retired as the only people who can attend a council which , and therefore we must remember that and make sure those who want to have the opportunity to participate in local government are actually compensated for their, for their erm, for their work. Okay, taking a vote on Mr 's amendment, which is to ask officers to publish a list of allowances claimed, I think that's all allowances, but not presum , not necess , and including travel and subsistence. Okay, not travel. For the years ninety-one two, ninety-two-three, ninety-three- four Those in favour of that amendment please show. ., and the against? And that is carried, before taking the motion amendment which I hope will financial control which is that the of financial services shall have no discretion to accept claims for the financial year ninety-three ninety-four, submitted after the thirtieth of June nineteen-ninety- four, that effectively means that that two month rule which he does have discretion on he will not have in the case of late claims in this financial year, that means we'll know exactly what the figures are, by the thirtieth of June. Can I put that, does anybody want to debate that? I thought actually we had a standing order already that claims had to be in within a certain time limit yes, yes and I believe that, that three months is the time limit Two months Two months but he had discretion well, oh I see you're removing the discretion,ke In this particular case we're removing that discretion to try and tie the year down. Right, well, well debated, do you want to speak on that? Yes I would if I may. Can I just reassure Mr that if actually we were not, er, if we were discussing an increase in members allowances then I would be fair square with him. We're in a position where we're going to borrow a bit from next year, that actually puts the pressure on as I see it's about nine or ten thousand extra this year, the allowance is about a hundred and eighty thousand, the total, erm, we're adding nine or ten thousand to that, we're taking it off it for next year, so we've already got ourselves something like an eighteen to twenty thousand reduction in members allowances next year so the pressure is on to resolve the problem, and er, perhaps Mr might feel that actually that extra pressure might make us resolve it. I got the dates wrong, it's the thirtieth of may that's two months after the end, so the amendment I'm moving Thank you, er, Mr On the amendment, on the amendment, as you're seeking to amend standing orders, is this committee able to do that? I think the particular point about the two month rule which may be extended at the discretion of the director, which obvious taking his discretion away, I don't think that's a standing order Yeah, I, I don't think it's a standing order sir, I think its part of erm, I'm just trying to find it, it's part of the member's allowances, and this committee is charged with dealing with member's allowances. Can I put that to the vote?say aye aye Well now, I think and I think we may I would say that erm, I improving the qualified budget as well,but there's no doubt , I put the motion to the vote, those in favour please show aye and the against . Agenda item eight Mr 's appointment to the sub-committee of the West regional association with deaf, for the deaf, should be an approved duty for the payment of travelling and subsistence allowances only. On the grounds that this is erm, now appropriately remote from the county council's work. Mr . Yes chairman, I think that before you phrased that motion you might have enquired as to the circumstances of this, and, and everything that surrounds it. Er, it is not just an additional committee, on the part of the West region, it is in fact the total reorganisation of a number of meetings, and getting down to a far more business-like thing. Erm, in the past, the constitution of the West region association has allowed for it's council to meet twice a year, one of those was an A G M, and for an executive committee to meet four times a year. The representation is three people per authority, it could be three members, sometimes it's two members and an officer. Very few counties apart from Wiltshire have ever actually sent three. Most of those have attended at an A G M once a year. The membership of an executive, has been one member from each county. I've served on that one, and the whole business of the organisation has generally speaking been run by the executive and not by a full council. Therefore there's been no real problem on this one as far as allowances. That has now decided that it will have one meeting of it's council a year which will be it's A G M, it has not for the moment elected an executive committee. It has put in it's place, a, er a general purposes and finance sub- committee, this is this one referred to, it has not made allowances for who shall serve on it per county, all it did, it called it together very quickly, and to cut costs to authorities, it's based the meetings in Bristol instead of Exeter, and it was suggested by the chairman of W R A D, that perhaps any volunteers coming onto it, erm, would in fact come from the surrounding counties. Now, the, the membership of this particular, er, special purposes committee if you like, erm is the core officers and three other members, and they called for volunteers, and one came from Avon, one came from Dorset, put his name forward from Wiltshire. Now I am one of the officers on there which gives two members from Wiltshire a seat on this particular committee. However, we have no executive committee, and we have only one other meeting a year, erm, if you, I, I would like you to suggest that if you accept this restructuring of er, the organisation, and the fact that the members will not be attending other meetings during the year, you might see fit to allow the attendance allowance on this particular sub-committee. Thank you, er Mr that was, was quite, erm, was quite informative, very. I just wanted to check what the position of the old executive committee of the W R A D which been appointed, whether that was in fact erm, something that qualified for a full allowance. Miss Yeah, but, I mean I was just, erm, I found that very informative as well, I was very disappointed that if that much money er, information was available that we were not given it as members, because it would have made decision making far more sensible, but erm, I as an amendment as I am involved in the attendance allowance . er, I must, I always claim the attendance allowance when it has been as executive, as I've been the one member from Wiltshire attending. Whenever there's been officers get together, then W R A D itself paid for my travelling expenses and I have never claimed that from the authority, as I didn't believe that was proper. But as the organisation has seen to be when it meets generally speaking, the council and the executive are one and the same dealing with exactly the same business, I've considered it a meeting of the organisation, and the organisation now basically is going to be the seven sub-committee plus an Annual General Meeting of it's full council. Miss Well, I mean, I think, er from, I mean certainly I don't know how you feel chairman, but my view of this has changed if what Mr says is correct, then it seems that this seems, that this is the, the basic sort of day to day decision making erm, group, erm, and far more central to the purposes of W R A D than previously appeared, and there would seem to me therefore to be some case of paying an attendance allowance or else erm, deferring the decision erm, until we have even more information, but I think, if it really is the, the, the sort of decision making bit then attendance allowance ought to be paid. Who seconds I'm, I'm happy to second members please show and the against. The members say aye aye against attendance allowances for members, I would move that er, a scheme be commenced from the first of April ninety-four, and that the wording attached to the paper, be altered in two respects,in place of the phrase is a person over sixty-nine years of age, the words is an elderly person, and more significantly at the end of paragraph four, and normally lives with a member as part of the member's family and be able to be left at th , be unable to be left unsupervised, be added, And that er, power to delegate a director of financial to amend the rates of allowances from time to time rates of attendance allowance for members, and that the scheme be met from the overall member's allowance to which we recently referring. Okay, Miss Erm, yes, well I'm very glad you've moved the amendments about the scheme. I don't quite know what's, what happened, because I remember very well amending these details the last time it came to policy and resources, and that was agreed, because the changes you have made use the working, wording of the Thamesdown scheme, it seems to me far better, erm, as you have moved it, because er, very many people who are elderly, who are sixty-nine years or more or less don't need any supervision at all. Erm, indeed some eighty ninety year olds don't need any supervision, on the other hand some people in their early sixties may need to be looked after, and, you know, I don't fancy the idea of anybody being able to claim allowances because they've fit granny, erm, on the other hand anybody who needs to ought to be able to, and I think this wording secures that. Thank you chairman. Erm, I, I shall oppose er, your motion erm, on on two grounds. Erm, firstly, we are looking at carers for employees, and we're unlikely to come up with very much, because we haven't got much money to do it. And yet we are seeing as members, coming back to Mr 's point, making a, setting an example which is opposite to that which we force on our employees. And the other one is financial. If members allowances are a hundred and eighty thousand this year which is somewhere around there, Mr may correct me but I think I'm not too far out, we've already upped those this year to a hundred and eighty- nine, so next year there'll be a hundred and seventy-one and the thirteen thousand cost of this will reduce it to a hundred and fifty-eight I actually don't think that is possible, we can't afford it within the terms of of the present set up, unless someone's going to dramatically reduce the length and the number of meetings in this council, which I think is highly unlikely, I think we've got to set a good example to our employees, I think that this would give completely the wrong message. We're looking after ourselves, er, but we're not prepared to look after them, and, I'm afraid I have to oppose it. I'll just make a humorous point, I've got a sick dog, but I see that isn't er, covered. Yeah, well,, Mr . What point in having, I suppose it's my fault, I should have read these erm, bits added to it more carefully earlier, but it doesn't seem to have anything in their about anybody who is actually claiming a carer's allowance from looking after somebody at the time, and whether we should have a phrase in there that it doesn't include anybody that is collecting from the D S S S or anything else for a carer's allowance anyway, because you don't want to double pay anybody. Mr Thank you chair. I'm slightly disappointed in erm, 's attitude, especially his last comment, even though I'm sorry to hear that he's got a sick dog at the moment. Erm, I know that for many, that people will find this very helpful. I believe there's two aspects to this. There's the firstly that of young children, and it's something that I remember putting a motion to in the last administration about a creche or whatever or looking into this facility, in the fact of erm, trying to encourage more people with young families to erm, actually get involved in local government and politics. But I think there's also the other end of the scale which is, which is what, you've slightly amended this year, is the fact of elderly people erm, I know recently that myself have gone through the fact of my gran had er, was going through a very sick period, and if she'd have come back home, it would have been very difficult for me to have had to look after her at the same time as trying to attend my council duties, and this would have been the same for my dad, and the additional income which this would have brought, to have paid someone to be able to look after her whilst we were at council meetings, and you can remember that these meetings sometimes go on, you can say well, this meeting should be over by one o'clock then it goes on till three o'clock or whatever, and then peop , the problems mount up for that person left on their own, and I think that those things have to be taken into consideration, and I believe that this is the first step forward in trying to recognise that people have responsibilities outside of the council chamber. Thank you, Mr Thank you very much Mr chairman, I would like to endorse what Mr has said, erm, I assume that this carer's allowance is aimed primarily er, at er, women with dependant children. Erm, and I feel very strongly, and I urge members to consider that we should support this as a matter of principle, to help er, that group of our society, I me , I was going to suggest an amendment that we ask for the average age of this council erm, to be published along with the expense claims? Yes, to be published along with the expense claims. Although joking apart I urge members to support this on principle, I think we should put this in and then it will have to be considered next year, how, where the money will, will come from, and I think that we should establish it that married women with dependant children will get some allowance to help them to stand and represent their communities. Thank you. Sorry,I'd better re ,re , er remove the word married, women with dependent children should be helped to represent their communities. Thank you. Yes, I'd p , I would personally prefer the word people or parents No, I, I, I, just, just a cover note, I think it's quite true that this is one of the small steps one can make to make it a little bit more possible for people with dependents to take a full part in local government, and the majority of the people who are excluded at the moment are in practise erm, women with dependent children, but there are many other people including men, and including people with dependent elderly relatives, and I think we need to make it the rule rather than the exception that local government has a carer's allowance scheme. I'm confident that the scheme won't cost anything like as much as the estimate, but I'm, I'm sure it's right that it's been, having having done some background work to see how many people might claim it I'm confident that that we've erred on the safe side here by a substantial amount, and that's why I'm sure it can be met from the overall budget. But I would agree with Mr , that it does add a further pressure, it means we have to have a real review of erm, how we pay allowances in order to stay within our budget limit, which I think is two hundred and two thousand for the current year, and erm, a little bit more for next year, according to the previous paper. Did you want to come in Mr ? Thank you chairman. Erm, I, I wanted to pick up the point Mrs said, I, I don't think this will necessarily this will be one of those allowances which people will er, claim on a regular basis. Er, I am mindful chairman that I embarrassed you acutely at the end of education meeting on Friday, erm,and I know that I, I have a circumstance coming up in February, where I have a child who is unexpectedly on a training day, erm, on a day where I actually have two meetings of this council, now either I get substituted, or we arrange for a one off carer situation. Now I'm not for a mom , I'm not for a moment suggesting that it's something that would be picked up on a regular basis, but I think it does mean, as you rightly say, that er, if, if, if such a procedure does arise then I'm conscious that I'm in a one off situation, I know there's at least one of our colleagues on our benches who has this on, with children on a more regular basis. Erm, I I think we will encourage er, people with dependants to play a more active role in the er, business of this council and in, I think it is something that is worth er, considering and it is worth carrying forward. I, I'm very sad to learn that the committee may not fee , feel quite so constrained to assist er, employees. I think er, we need to er, look at this issue of carers far more rigorously, and I'm very sad that the government, having made a great play about back to basics and er, encouraging family values, erm, are not in fact prepared er, to do something to er, alleviate unemployment by encouraging employers to make adequate provision to ensure that people with dependants can actually work. Okay, I'll put the motion to the vote, those in favour please show,and the against. That is carried. Nine one, supplementary capital estimates of the magistrates court, letter circulated this morning from officers to amend the figure, I think all members should have had that and I will move that a capital supplementary estimate of fifty-five thousand and four pounds be approved for expenditure on the magistrate's court services described in the report and in the letter circulated this morning. Chairman you've got to allow me because by the time I've finished you won't be able to stop me, er, but I mean if there's a lot of money floating about in this area then I think that er, some committee or other should be looking at the the refurbishment of the courts in Devizes which are a disgrace, and partly the fault of this council when th they were allowed to get into such a state, and I mean at some stage or other, something or else is gonna to have to happen to them and I would hope that the magistrates in their wisdom in some committee or other are, are deciding to take these courts back into use. Thank you Mr . We don't have much control over what the magistrate's court committee do, as we could tell from our efforts to appeal against the closure of some other magistrate's courts erm, anybody else on this subject, I'll put this to the vote, really since it's a technicality. It's a pure technicality, Mr chairman, but I did ask at the previous meeting er, that the erm, director of property services respond to me on a matter relating to Wootton Bassett magistrate's court, If we have such a large amount of money that we can spend I think the questions that I posed then, er are relevant and I would appreciate a reply. Er, Mr erm, I think your point is covered in the next item on the agenda where there is a reference to to twenty-five thousand included the ninety-three four budget for Wootton Bassett. Can I put this to the vote? Those in favour please show and the against that is agreed. Nine two, you have a paper from the, which is a copy of the paper th , that the director of financial services submitted to the magistrate's court committee management board, a response from the magistrate's courts management board for the county council erm, I will move to note the response of the magistrate's courts committee and to confirm our previous recommendation to the county council regarding this part of the policy resources committee budget. Those in favour please say aye. aye And the against that is carried. Item ten, which I think is the probations committee budget I will move to accept the probations committee's budget and to agree an increased county council contribution of twenty-six thousand pounds. aye I see nobody wishing to speak, those in favour please show any against? That is agreed. Right,for the next item members will need to note the statements from the joint trade unions liaison committee and the non-domestic rate-payers group and to find item twenty-one two today's papers, the minutes of the budget review sub-committee, meeting held on the eighteenth of January, agenda item twenty-two brackets one. There's a recommendation from the budget review sub-committee for us to deal with, at er, minute seven, little at the bottom of page two. The fifth paragraph of that has the proposed council tax bands the county council services but these have been amended by a letter you've been sent dated the twenty- first of January, as a result of information from council regarding their tax base. And I will move from the chair to recommend the county council, erm, as shown on page three, that is to say paragraphs little one, little two, little three, little four and little five with the amended band figures. And I would like to say thank you to the people who sit on the budget review sub- committee, a committee which actually I don't attend as often as I probably ought to, particularly to the labour spokesperson , for the way he's guided the committee, both from within the chair and at other times, on it's work this year, to be able to propose a budget which erm, so well fulfils the aims that many of us had when we were elected in May, which were of course, to maintain services, er, to squeeze efficiency out of the sy into the system and squeeze any waste out, and to get our officers working towards zero base budgets. And to a very large degree, that has been erm, achieved, and I think that erm, the prospects for the county council for ninety-four five are now much better than they appeared to be a year ago, and er, I think the prospects for ninety-five six will need to be looked at through the budget review sub-committee and this committee at an early stage, and I'm sure that the workman-like way in which it's addressed it's business is a good sign for the future. I would like to thank all the members erm, who've served on that committee and indeed the officers who've worked for it, because a lot of the background work and a lot of the er, consultation with departments has been necessary to get us to the erm, reasonably satisfactory stage we're at, considering the ext extremely severe restrictions on government ex , er, on local government spending, er resulting from the cap. That's inspired a few hands. I'll take Mr . You're getting me worried. You praised two of my members on Friday, another one today, you after them or something? Can I thank you for those generous comments that you say towards er,, I think they're totally true, he's worked extremely hard in making sure this council has a budget which balanced, and it's due to his expertise and bullying tactics that we've succeeded, and he should be fully congratulated for that, and I think it's the determination of those who were elected in May as well, to make sure that we protected services and jobs, and, and make sure that we actually carried out the mandate which the electors elected us to do that we have such ach achieved what we have achieved today. er, Mr . Thank you chairman. I, I er, you would not expect me to continue with the euphoria which you were trying to create earlier, and er, I have to say that I suppose that you wouldn't er, be proposing any different budget to this would you, in the circumstances that you've got. But we wouldn't be starting at that, at the point that you did because we did not, would not have spent the approaching five million that you spent in the first er, month or two of this council. We note that you have addressed the problem on social services in your re in your erm, proposal, er and that we we're grateful for. We were faced, as you reminded me with a projected twenty-four million pound shortfall. That projection of course took into account the fact that you'd raised the base and therefore you had extra money to find. But when you look carefully at where that twenty-four million disappeared to, you start to find the problems with your budget. There was a six million pound erm, er difference on the S A assumption. There was an assumption that inflation would be higher than it was and that was cut back to one point five percent, which I think that I would actually support was a sensible way forward. But there was a costed projection of eleven point two million in that, you're not funding that eleven point two million projection , and we need to look underneath, to what that means, and that means that you're not funding schools, and that is particularly secondary schools, to the extent of a one million pound shortfall because the increase in pupil numbers. Now we'll here very quickly from people who say that we've devolved more money to schools. We've devolved the money to schools, but they've got to spend most of it back with the council here. What the thing of course is, and we all know what it is, it's an effort to penalise those secondary schools who've gone grant maintained, but they don't get the extra money, they get a hundred pound a pupil less. Don't shake your head Mr , read the letters that are coming to me, from those schools like who can see the reduction in their budget next year. Look at the police budget, and we shall be discussing the police budget later on, you had a windfall, underspend on police pensions, but we all know those police will retire at some time or other, and when they do there is a commitment to their lump sum payments and their pensions. You've had a bit of luck there, you might turn the other way next year, and you might find that you've got an increased number of police retiring, and if you have, you're going to find extreme pressure on the police budget, and you will see that there is the reductions that the Chief Constable told you he would have to make if that happened. You're already short short-funding the police budget without that factor as well. You've got a reduction in this budget of three and three quarter million pounds on highway maintenance. That actually is an awful lot of roads that are not going to be maintained in the coming year. You've reduced highway maintenance from six point two million down to er, er, a figure of two point five. That's jobs, that's where you you say you want to support the private sector and the building trade to bring more jobs. That's an awful lot of jobs in that, that aren't going to be in Wiltshire next year because you've reduced it, and it's also a considerable reduction in the standard of our roads. I will be reminding you as the year goes on, and the other items of pain start to appear in the budget that you would think you have so cleverly put together and that with no problems. We will continue here reminding you Mr Chairman, we will be opposing the budget that you have presented. Mr Thank you chairman. Er, first point, I'm not absolutely certain, when you moved your proposal, you moved from budget review, the clauses one to five. I'm not sure that you also removed clauses c, d and e from the order paper, and if you haven't I'll so move. Thank you, I'll accept that amendment. Members are clear what Mr spotted which is that in addition to the from budget review, we also need to agree some er, effectively some delegations in c, d and e, of the recommendation laid out in pages two and three of the main agenda. I think that's what Mr 's moved as an amendment, and I'm happy to accept that, so that forms part of Thank you chairman. I mean,wha what I would like to go on and say is, that er, which the change of administration it has been necessary to er, adopt a different way of, of developing the budget, and I think you're quite right to erm, pay credit to the effort of the er, budget review er, sub-committee. I think we also need to recognise that there has also been a er, high level of er, commitment from er, officers employed by this council to achieving the changes that we have asked in terms of financial management, now I'm not going to pretend for a moment that er, we've gone all the way there yet. But I think in the few months that this administration has er, has been in office, it is encouraging to see that the county council is operating inside the budget, er, which I believe was actually set by the previous administration, erm, er over which we had no influence whatsoever. Now clearly, we're not going to pretend that there aren't going to be problems in the future that we may have to address. Not least I think the er, if if the government find themselves faced with much higher pay er, settlements erm, as a result of the deliberations of the pay revue bodies. I for one will be most curious to see how the chancellor of the exchequer wriggles out of that particular i issue. But nonetheless, I think we as county councillors can be proud of the fact that we have set a spending target for committees, we are prepared to allow the officers to manage their departments inside the targets that have been set, and that does mean that they have to look at er, what they're spending and create priorities, and and I as a councillor am not in the least bit impressed by arguments that paper clips have increased by five and a half percent this year, and that felt l er pe felt line erm, pens have gone up by seventeen and a half percent, I think that's largely irrelevant consideration, we're not in the business of projecting budget, we're in the business of providing money to deliver high quality services to the people of Wiltshire. I think the people of Wiltshire recognise that we have been able to set a budget that enables all the departments to have more money in real terms to spend on delivery of service for next year, and I think that's something that we can some credit in, and I think it does reflect a new partnership between councillors, officers and those that are delivering services to the public across the county. Thank you, er Mr . Thank you Mr Chairman. It might not surprise you that it's the highways budget that concerns me. Erm, I think it's a false economy to cut on maintenance, you only leave trouble there, you're putting off the problem for our successors. The young people following us will have to pay for our mistakes if we cut on maintenance now. And I do, I'm more concerned with the lack of capital in maintenance that'll we'll, we're going to have on the roads and infrastructure this year, I think there's always a reason to put a little bit of capital maintenance into both our buildings and our roads. It needs to be done now and it's going to cost us more if we leave it till later, on that point I can't agree with your budget, so, I'm afraid, it's roads that put me against it. Well I will just come in here because I think Mr wants to get his figures a bit more accurate. I don't think even in our wildest dreams we managed to spend an extra five million in the first few weeks of this council, I remember a couple of million going into schools and few hundred thousand for voluntary organizations, and er, and old people's homes. But the other figure I think he's, he'll have to recheck is his figure on highways structural maintenance, because in fact two and a half million's in the base budget and one and a half million's in the approved list of thirty-seven bids at at er, priority number two. It seems to me entirely up to him, if he so wished, and his group, if they felt there needed to be more money spent on highways structural maintenance to have moved other bids up to priority order when discussing the capital budget. And I do think it's unfortunate when people try and confuse capital and revenue expenditure, in order to try and er, support their own rather weak political position. Erm, but it's impressive that he now feels we should be allowed to spend more money to create jobs, because of course a lot of us have been trying to point that out for years to the governments which stupidly cap authorities so they can't actually carry out the infrastructure improvements that are needed to enable the economy and the society to function properly. I'll call Mr to . Thank you chair, thank you particularly for your kind words, they are appreciated. Erm, doesn't a lot change in a year really, or even in six months. In May, Mr and his group had the opportunity to vote with us in spending another two million pounds on the education system of this county, and now he is complaining only six months later, that we aren't spending enough, and I think we've said before, the Conservatives have, and continue to have the opportunity for action, but they will not support their words with deeds. Erm, we've seen it also through the budget process, where all the way through, and it's been a very open process, we have no alternative proposals from the Conservative group, they have complained and have criticized but they have offered no alternatives. This morning they offer no alternatives other than to spend more. I mean it might as well be perhaps, I don't know, Lambeth council in the nineteen-seventies that they are representing, along with John Major there. They're simply asking for more money to spent with no concerns about the value for money, and surely it was the Conservatives who used to tell us ten or fifteen years ago, that you couldn't judge the quality of a service by the amount of money spent on it. The fact that we are providing the services for Wiltshire, that they were providing, and we're providing them for less money, is surely something to be applauded. We all know that the task we've set the officers is to manage within the budgets they've been given, and to have no cuts in services, and no compulsory redundancies, and thi this is their challenge and this is what they seem to be achieving, and I think we should applaud them for that. I think we should note that in the current year, and you've corrected Mr , that it's three million pounds extra that we've spent, even though we've spent three million pounds extra in May, with our decisions then to restore the sheltered workshops and to give more money to education and to keep elderly peoples homes open. Even though we spent that money we are projected to come in with balances of three million pounds in excess of the budget figure set by the Conservatives, and that is a six million pounds difference that's come straight out of the twenty-four and I think it tells us two things. One is that the then Conservative group, and I think, by reflection the current Conservative groups, since everybody sitting here was here last year, don't know enough about budgeting to set a budget for a county council, and it also tells us that they don't know enough about managing a county council to manage even a budget that they have set. And it surely is som something that the people of Wiltshire can be glad that they made the right decisions in May, that they haven't got that administration, Hear, hear. I think also, the people of Wiltshire will be glad that it us here setting the budget, and therefore the precept and their council tax next year, and something that people will be looking at is their council tax bills, and noting that they go up by six point three percent, or are proposed to, with the provisional assets aim which is set by the government. And people may be wondering why they're going up by so much, when after all, the S S A, and that is the figure that we're restricted to set by the government, is only going up by three point three percent, and half of this is for care in the community money, so that, all that care in the community money remember, pound for pound in that it's added to our budget, is knocked off the budget of Social Security, that is not, not any extra money spent on people. So in reality our S S A is going up about one and a half percent, and as you know our budget has gone up about one and a half percent, so why is the council tax going up six point three percent? Well, as usual it's all there in the papers that Mr has prepared for us if anybody cares to read them, and you will notice, the national non-domestic rate, the business rate as it's known, the contribution that the government are passing on from the business rates paid in Wiltshire, back to the people of Wiltshire is dropping by seven point nine million pounds, it's being cut from a hundred and eighteen point six to a hundred and nine point three million pounds, and again this is pound for pound. Pound for pound it's coming off the people of Wiltshire, and it's going to fund Kenneth Clarke's budget deficit. Kenneth Clarke has robbed the people of Wiltshire of that money. That's nine point three million pounds of business rates, and I'm sure I'm not the only person here that pays business rates in Wiltshire, and I haven't noticed any sign that my rate bill are going down, course they're not. The Government is taking the money, and it is not paying it back to the people of Wiltshire. Now, if we had actually received a one point five percent increase in the business rates, we could have cut the council tax so we could have reduced that, and I think that is the criticism that I make of the Conservatives, not that the Conservatives in this council have done that, but that they should be apologizing for it. They should be standing here now as the party of high taxation, and saying sorry to the people of Wiltshire for supporting Kenneth Clarke and his team, for supporting John Major and his team, and they should be saying sorry for the part that we pa played in lying to the electorate at the last general election. Hear, hear. Well, follow that, erm, I think that er, I'll be very brief because a lot of it's already been said, and you've already, Mr Chairman picked up Mr on his dodgy figures, erm, with his five million, erm, because what that was about, just under three million was actually fulfilling our election pledges, which is something we have noticeably failed to see from this Conservative government. Erm, Mr goes on about displaying items of pain in a really rather sort of strange way, erm, the only reason why there's any pain in this budget is because of the constraints that this Tory government is putting on us. And if we were able to make a budget erm, without the constraints of the S S A and so on, we would not, erm you know, and without the cuts of business rates as Mr said, there wouldn't need for any pain anyway. Erm, we have, as you would have seen, and has already been noted, erm, balances considerably higher than the seven million we've previously set, at the, at the moment, and these will erm, be able to make provision if necessary, for police pay should happen to be higher than er,we are told than, than the one point five percent, which has something that people have raised with me, and erm, have said, that oh of course you lose grants if you don't decide it now, but that is not in fact the case. Erm, I think that we have a very sane, sensible budget proposed here, and I trust that every sensible councillor will support it. I, oh, I'm sorry, I didn't see you. Erm, could I go back to what Mr was saying, of course the main thing is, really that er, the difference in this budget and previous ones is that we are not paying projection costs million. Erm, what Mr very carefully very carefully failed to mention of course is that the rates of has in fact gone up by eleven point one percent. Very conveniently not mentioned. Yes, I, I, the Can we erm, can we move on? The, the motion I moved needs to be adjusted because of our decision on the probation committee, earlier. Little three, erm, where the reference to drawing from balances is made. That figure needs to go up by twenty-six thousand to read nought point two three one million, and what's left needs to go down by twenty-six thousand at ten one one four o million. Erm, I'll put the motion to the vote, which consists of the whole of paragraph b of the budget review sub-committee's recommendation, with this being a recommendation to the county council, and with paragraphs c, d and e from the original agenda paper. Those in favour please show and the against? That is carried. Thank you very much. Er, item twelve. I'm going to take these two together, that's twelve one and twelve two. Twelve one deals with the recommendation for economic developments and tourism sub-committee, er the er projects, and twelve two with the er, capital budget report from the director of financial services, which is in the budget book, I refer to the recommendation on these items from the budget review sub-committee, which is in their minutes, at agenda item twenty-two one, at the bottom of the third page and going over to the fourth, erm, a number of paragraphs. And erm, I'll move those recommendations from the budget review sub-committee, a, b, c, d, e, f, g and h. In doing so I would erm, particularly like to say how much I appreciate the success of the bid, in erm, as, as an example of county, counties working together, erm, and indeed officers working together, and indeed of getting a positive response from the Government. I think from time to time, little bits of the Government do work reasonably well, and do respond reasonably well to county council and local authority initiatives, and although I couldn't pretend that a hundred and, that twenty- five thousand pounds is going to solve the unemployment problem in Wiltshire, nor indeed solve the problem being created by the run- down of defence industry, nevertheless, I think credit should be given where credit's due. A lot of credit is due to our officers in this respect, for er, securing the success of that bid, and indeed for securing a back-up capital resource facility, in the unlikely event that we don't get the supplementary credit approval, er, for the er, for the expenditure. So, I've moved the motion, anybody wish to speak on this item? Okay, those in favour please show and the against . Nobody else, er, agenda item thirteen treasury report aye. Thank you. Agenda item fourteen, I recommend that the county council approve the recommendations of eleven a, b and c. aye Those in favour please say aye. aye And the against that is carried. Item fifteen, I move to approve the supplementary capital estimate of twenty-five thousand pounds for the St Mary's infant school special nursery unit. Those in favour please say aye. aye And the against that is carried. Item sixteen, the district auditors management letter and audited accounts for ninety-two ninety-three. Mr . Thank you chair, chairman. I have a particular over the management letter, and I'm sure Mr will be aware that in fact I refer of course to the facilities management contract. Erm, this management letter was distributed er, to all of us, so I suppose some of us at least will have read it. And, and the district auditor is particularly concerned. He says, I remain concerned that it is not yet possible to agree an implementation plan for recommendations made in his previous report. Now this is in his key messages, and towards the back, there are two pages, where he complains that many promises were made for the facilities management contract, and in particular, erm, he says it is still the case that work to take advantage of the development faci facility has not yet been identified, now I think this is the thing we spent a million pounds on it, and are not using it. And he says that progress towards down-sizing has not yet been planned to meet the target deadline within the con , within the contract. Now how long ago was that contract? Eighteen months? And this is a letter dated a couple of months ago, is it? Erm, what's been going there? Now the facilities management contract is being held up by Mr as an example for the property out-sourcing. Well I don't think it's a very good example, if it's being criticized. Perhaps it's the kind of example, in the same way that Westminster Council was held up as an example, and it's now being criticized by the district auditor. Erm, perhaps it will be Mr 's policy to impune all district auditors that their findings are not worth erm, troubling with. Well, I don't suppose this contract's costing us twenty-one million, but it's costing us several million, and I would hate to think that er, any of that is being wasted, or not spent in the best possible way, and I would therefore recommend, chair, that we refer the matter of the facilities management contract to the budget review sub-committee for consideration of the way it's not being implemented. Right, thank you. referring to, paragraphs one hundred and four to one hundred and nine, saying , Miss also wishes to comment on this Erm, yes I do, very much indeed. I'm extremely disappointed, that erm, we don't seem to make any progress towards getting the savings erm, that, that, erm, we were promised. I, I hesitate to suggest, I mean that I'm quite happy to support what Mr is saying, because I really hesitate to suggest reviving the old computer and financial services working party, because I think that was probably my most miserable experience on this council, with the single exception of the budget review er, parallel, or whatever it was, when it was led by . Erm, but it seems to be the case that when there are not councillors here whinging away at officers, saying why isn't it working, nothing happens, it all gets sort of forgotten or something. And we've got to do something about it, we were promised these savings, there aren't any, it doesn't look as if anybody's working awfully hard to get them, and I'd like to know why not, and what's going on, and I'm quite happy to support what Mr proposes, that we refer it all to budget review. You might have noticed, there is an officer response. Mr Can I just say sir, we are, er, the manager is preparing a report, tonight plans a report for the February the twenty-second meeting of policy resources committee, on the first, well it's not the first year, first tranche of the F M contract, and dealing with these points of the It started at the end of March, it's the first nine months, it's the first tranche of the erm, the F M arrangement, and, and your members will be getting a report in February on that. Mr You would expect me to defend it, wouldn't you chairman, and I will. I still remain convinced, that the, that the contract that we wrote, and, and, and we undertook remains the right I don't know where Mr get's his ideas from. But there nd we undertook remains the right No chair, I would very much like it to be looked at in great detail by the budget review committee, actually, you'll see in the report that many of these problems were identified as areas of concern by the district auditor prior to the signing of the contract, and he was given, it seems, various assurances which may or may not have been met, and I would like to go into much more detail than would be possible with this committee. I'm actually thinking in terms of an hour or two, with the responsible manager reporting in detail to the budget review committee. We're talking about a lot of money here, that has been spent, and has continued to be spent, and the sooner we get it sorted out the better, and I'd like to see it on the agenda of the next budget review committee, which would prior to the policy committee, I believe next, and so we could perhaps augment er, Mr 's report with some findings of our own. Right, now I'm told that the report to next policy committee is coming anyway, it won't be ready for the next budget review, but you'd like, erm, so,cou , perhaps you'd better word your motion so that the officers completely clear as to what you're proposing. Yeah, I, I'm suggesting that the facilities management contract, be referred to the budget review sub-committee for consideration, and in that way we can actually consider it, and obviously if the report is not yet prepared, erm, perhaps we can put some input into it, I have to say, that it disturbs me to be given an answer, that don't worry everybody, there's a report coming, and then we suddenly say well, we might like to look at it in three weeks time, we're told actually it's not written yet. That was seconded I think by Mr Right, well I mean I think it, it's actually quite simplified by the fact that I don't think there actually is a firm date for the budget review before the next P and R anyway. Erm, but I think P, er, budget review, or somebody needs to have a look at it, if you've got budget review and you've got people who, most of the people who were on the old working party know the background there anyway, seems as good a place as any to look at it. I mean I actually voted for this contract, erm, rather reluctantly, but it seemed better than not, doing so at the time, but we were given assurances, and it was very well understood by absolutely everybody, that vigorous management would be needed in order to achieve the targetising and that was the only way that the savings were going to be made, and it does seem that, that, erm that has not been going on. I would support what Mr was saying. Yes, we have a small problem with the dates, that's all. The budget review sub-committee has a provisional date of Thursday the third of February, which was in the minds of members and officers to deal with anything urgent that needed to be dealt with before county council budget making. Erm, I'm happy to take Mr 's view on this. Whether he wants to get F M onto the agenda and firm that up as a date for a meeting. Well I, I think it's, that's a meeting that we were thinking of not having unless there was some sort of panic caused by yet another change of the Government's position on budgets. So it's still in obeyance isn't it? What I'm suggesting really, is let's get it on the agenda for budget review whenever the next meeting is, to be considered in depth, and if that gives an extra couple or three weeks for officers to write the report, fine, if it goes beyond the next policy and resources a week or two won't matter in the scheme of things, it's detailed consideration I'm looking for, rather than a fast fix in ten minutes at the next P and R. Okay, everybody clear what the motion is? Those in favour please show and the against any further points on the district auditor's reports? Miss Erm, yes. I would like to draw attention particularly in the light of the next item on the agenda, er, to paragraph erm, paragraph forty-two to forty-five, talking about environmental management. Erm, in particular in paragraph forty-four. He is er, strongly er, suggesting that we ought to be rather more pro-active than we either are, or than anybody is suggesting that we ought to be in the paper at number seventeen. And I'd just like to raise this now because I'll be saying more when we get to seventeen. Thank you Miss . Erm, Mr Thank you. I would like to erm, talk to ninety-three on page thirty-one and er, this is education rationalizing primary school education. I think there's er, a dispute er, erm, that's my er, choice of words, between the district auditor and ourselves, over, over this. And I think that it might be useful, Mr Chairman to emphasize the fact that we are a rural county, and a rural county has specific rural problems, er, and I don't think that the district auditor has recognized the particular problems that we have er, in a rural county. So, I wonder whether er, as ari er, a matter arising out of this, erm er, the director of education could, erm er, perhaps address this issue and put forward a paper to the next education committee. Well, I, I think I will ask the director of education to comment on that paragraph, because to a large degree, the, the district auditor's report that he refers to there, in his section, matters previously raised, his report entitled rationalizing primary school education was published in December nineteen ninety- one, and it is being addressed through a, a working party of the education committee which involves representatives from the church as well as of the political groups. But I do think that the district auditor is beginning to be presented as a bogie man erm, waved in the faces of people in rural areas, as a sort of threat that even if the council doesn't want to close your school, it might, and I think that probably isn't a very proper use of the district auditor's image, nor of his report, and I think perhaps some direct contact with him, er to show what progress we're making, paragraph by paragraph, and what we think of that report from December ninety-one, probably needs to be made. But I will ask dir , the director to re , respond to you on this Mr , er, er, did you want to also put this to vote? No, well I, I'll ask them to hang for Mr . Chairman,ye , yes it is a recurring theme of the district auditor an , and I told him in the past, that erm, where this council has a policy that they would support village schools and keep them open wherever possible, erm, that that, that, that decision had been discussed, and er, I, I have to remind that I did remind the district auditor that he doesn't have to get elected every four years, as some of us do, and er, those in rural areas know very well that that is the way not to get elected, to be talking about shutting village schools. But he doesn't acknowledge, and what, this is what I find concerning, the fact that we have in some areas of the county, amalgamated schools into a new school, West Grinstead and Alderbury for example, and taken surplus places out. In the Meer area we, we, we've built Meer First School into an annexe and we took surplus places out, so we have done something, and he doesn't seem to even acknowledge that, which I find concerning. I doubt whether the working party will get any further than recommending the status quo, because I'm absolutely sure in my own mind, that it is a duty that this council has to support village schools, where the parents support them, and where they're educationally beneficial, to support them in the village communities, because they are, they have other importance than just education. They are also a centre of the village. Dr Thank you chairman. Erm, if I could just bring the committee up to date on one or two things that have happened in relation to the district auditor's report. Firstly, er, I could assure the committee that the working party on provision of secondary and primary places which is published by the education committee, is taking the auditor's report very seriously, and has been through it in detail, and has er, drawn up a programme of, of analysis, erm, over the next few months, very much taking into account the district auditor's comments. There have been discussions, both at education committee and at county council which relate to the district auditor's concerns, er, county council want a full discussion of course about the place of small schools in the county, being a predominantly rural area. And also last Friday at education committee there was a long debate, both on the procedure which would be adopted by the working party, in discharging it's remit and in particular the policy which it recommended regarding small schools, and also an extended debate on one of the areas which was a subject of recommendation by the er, district auditor which concerns the organisation of first and middle schooling in the Meer area, and there the working party did look very specifically at the recommendation that was made by the district auditor that decided on balance that that wasn't likely to produce the best and most cost effective education in that part of the county. So, I think that the er, education committee has taken the, the report seriously and quite recently has looked at it in depth. The other thing perhaps I could just say, chairman, is that I did meet a representative of the district auditor last week to bring you up to date on the work which the education committee was doing. Erm, Mr . Thank you chairman. Er, throughout the management letter to members the district auditor er, makes suggestions and, and indicates that he will be monitoring our progress on a number of actions. Specifically I notice his comment in relation to the Christie Miller controversy, and also in relation to certain matters involving the police. Erm, I wonder if this is a matter which budget review might wish to keep on a continuing brief, so that, to satisfy themselves that the, this council is in fact making progress, and will be in a position to satisfy the district auditor in future years that we are er, taking on board the comments that he's making and er, moving forward. I'm conscious of the fact obviously that individual departments are taking them on board, but I think we, it is important that we actually do have a consistent approach, and it might well be that budget review at some future meeting might want to consider the monitoring of progress in order to satisfy the district auditor in future events. I've looked, for example, erm, to his comment on the police communications rooms, which will actually have a significant impact on er, the budget of the police committee in future years. Yes, I, I mean, I think, I don't want to come in there, but I think the difference between the point that you've made Mr and, and some of the others is the district auditor hasn't put a thing in a box. If he puts a thing in a box, it means you really have got to read this, and worry about it, but I think he's fairly happy with the progress on police training and police communication arrangements. If it had been up to me, you'd have one police communication room, not two, because I've worked in operations control, and you want to have a single control room for your authority, if any other system is less efficient than that. But I appreciate there were good operational reasons why he did what he did, but that's just from my own experience. Mr Thank you chairman. It's just that I think the district auditor knows what the cost of local schools is, and not the value of local schools. What I, and I having heard the director, what I want to be clear about, is that any decision which relates to closing local schools on, on economic grounds comes to the full county council, and is, is not dealt with by education. If it doesn't come to the full county council, then I will make sure it does, but I, one would hope that a decision such as that, which is of paramount importance in a, a rural area would be taken by a full county council and not by education. Well, that would be a change in procedure, I think, I don't recall that the closure of Berwick St James school was dealt with by county council, but Berwick St James was closed, I don't think we can pretend in either way about that. And I voted, I think, if I had a vote that day, I certainly voted in favour of that, and so did members of all groups. Some members voted against. But erm, I, certainly Mr had the right through standing orders to ensure that that er, was er, taken to county council, wouldn't he? Yes sir, county council could make that decision, it would first though have to consider a report from the education committee, under the education act. It's all very hypothetical. Mrs Thank you chair. I think education committee is quite capable of making those kinds of decisions, and members, erm, that er, are representing rural areas are allowed to come along to education committee, and I think that's perhaps the better way to, to go along those lines. But I, I would like to point out the difficulties that the audit has, the dist , the difficulties that the erm, er, local authorities have, or local education authorities have, in that the Government are, er, the Government insists on taking up surplus places, and this is inconsistent with their, also with their insistence on choice and diversity in education, and I think those points could be made quite clearly to the D F E some time or other. Mr Thank you chair. Can I echo the comments that people have made on the value of rural schools to villages. It's something I think everyone recognizes at their own, that village school plays more than just the function of educating children, in small village communities. But there is the other argument that has to be taken off, is that of, there is money, and I, we all would like to say that we'd like to pour as much money into education as we feel we could spend. But it doesn't mean, it's not, reality says that's not possible, because central government will not give us additional money to spend on education. Therefore, we're left with a certain pot and we must manage that the best way possible in providing the best education, not only for children in village schools, but in towns and every of large or medium size throughout this county. And why should the education of those who live in large towns suffer to finance uneconomical schools in rural areas of this county. I'm not saying that they are uneconomical, but there may be the odd one or two cases, like the of Berwick St James is a fine example, when it became uneconomical to maintain that school for the number of pupils which were attending, or proposed to be taken in the near future, and it was a sensible option for those children, and economically to close that school. And that has to be maintained in the future. I don't support this blanket band of reducing surplus places for the sake of reducing surplus places, like the district auditor, and if quote right, it's an accountant looking at erm, looking at figures and nothing else, and I think that is the problem with the issue, erm, we've seen in other schools, in larger schools, where they've developed erm, classrooms into a decent library, or resource area, but in the, in the, in the overall spectrum they're still counted as classroom spaces, and if that classroom was put back er in, into a class, the school would suffer environmentally, because that school would have no library facilities, no resource facilities which it's able to appreciate at the present time. I believe that this group, the Labour group will continue to support rural schools, where we feel that they are viable, and of benefit to the children. Our arguments on Friday, and still are, that we believe the two tier system is educationally beneficial than the three tier. But that argument we lost on Friday, and I'm not going to pursue it today. But what I, we are not prepared to do, is allow the schools that we represent to suffer, just to maintain small schools in this county, which are no longer economical or viable or educationally beneficial to the children that attend them. We are not prepared to stand by and let schools in areas that we represent get closed or re-organised or whatever, at the expense of small village schools, which should be re-organised, or re-rationalised before schools in large urban areas. We will not take the brunt of the district auditor's reduction in surplus places. It has to be done evenly across the board, in the rural and urban areas, or else we will fight every tooth and nail to make sure that we, our schools that we represent do not suffer. And I give that clear warning. The Labour party in this county, values the role of small rural schools, but we are not prepared to see urban schools suffer to make sure that urb , rural schools are kept open for the sake of being kept open. Can I remind members of a fact that in the sake of a county where there are more small schools, there is four percent more spent on education in the south of the county than any other part of Wiltshire. Right, erm, I move that we er, having dealt with the F M under a separate motion, that we note the district auditor's report. Those in favour please say aye. aye. And the against that's carried. Item seventeen. . Well now, I'll move the recommendations at seventeen and eighteen, but erm, I feel something further is required to try and get er, our officers working with our committees on local agenda twenty-one, and indeed in bringing forward the environmental audit scheme. I don't want to have a working party, but I'm wondering if we should lay down some sort of set of timetable and dates. Mr . Thank you manag , er Mr Chairman. Er,sorry. sorry about that Er, er, erm actually I was yeah . Erm, it's just on the big print on the bottom of page one, g two. Er, what's the point of analysing fuel for it's su , er, diesel fuel for it's sulphur content? It's much more economical both for th , and good for the environment to buy low sulphur fuel. Because, you know, it, it's cheaper to run your vehicles on low sulphur diesel, and it is because you don't get the deterioration in it, and it's better for the, it's better for the atmosphere. So I would have thought would be better to buy low sulphur contented diesel rather than analyse it, and in c thirteen, it worries me a little bit, because I believe that the district councils are the drainage authorities with the right about land drainage, and it was taken away from the county council several years ago. So are we actually putting our feet into what's being done by the district councils over c thirteen. I, I totally agree with what they're saying, but I'm just worrying that we're trying to do the job that the district councils are supposed to do. I, I, I would wonder if Mr 's questions need to be erm, taken up with the chief public health inspector, because I think that that, or it, that appears to be, or possibly the trading chi=standards, trading standards officer, neither of whom are here. Erm, because er, it does seem that erm, though we're not talking about our own fuel, we're talking about testing other people's fuel, and erm, there's an, it's an arcane point about district councils. Miss . Erm, thank you chairman. Yes, I mean it's, it's a nice report, but it's erm, it's not very sort of forceful or vigorous, is it? Erm, you know it's saying that motherhood is a good thing, but let's not exert ourselves too greatly to do anything about it. Erm. Oh, sorry I've got sex on the mind. Erm, I think, you know, when it says, at the end, towards the end of paragraph eleven, talking about the environmental management scheme for local government,could be utilised as tools to help improve the management framework for the councils precedents and initiatives in environmental matters. I would have felt much happier if the word had been will rather than could. Erm, it's quite clear from the district auditor's letter that he thinks that we're not being systematic enough, about what we do about environmental improvements, and it seems fairly clear to me to, that if we just push the to the service committees, erm, nothing will ever happen, except possibly on planning, and that erm, it will just sort of quietly disappear because it's not the top priority of any of the other service committees. And, it's only if this committee decides to take a hand in pushing environmental issues forward, that they will actually come about, except, almost by accident. And I would suggest therefore, that what we ought to do, is to ask not only for erm, the service committees to have reports, but for there to be erm, a, a, at some point a round up report of policy and resources. I don't know if we ought to put a timetable on that, on what's going on, on this erm, eco-management erm, business, but also, I was wondering, could we not ask for a report to the March or April meeting of this committee, on what actions we could take to make progress on the recommendations of the district auditor in paragraph forty-four. Erm, those are specifically, that there should be a formal framework for monitoring the revue, of our policies, that individual service committees should prioritise individual policies based on consistent criteria, and that there is the need to make staff aware of the authority's environmental policies. These are all things that we can take specific action, some easier and cheaper than others, to do something about. But I think we need to have a report to this committee, saying what we could do, and then we can decide what we will do. And I would like to move that that is added to your recommendation Mr Chairman. Er, I think, Miss you're moving er, an extra paragraph nineteen as it were to er, that a report be made to, shall we say the April meeting of policy and resources committee on progress in implementing the district auditor's recommendations, er paragraph four . But what I, I specifically worded this, what actions we could make, could take to make progress Okay. Because if you still want the answer to progress, the answer will come back none. Erm, if you ask for what actions we could take, then we'll have to work out a way of doing it. Is everybody clear on that amendment, which I'm happy to accept into er, my motion. I call Mr . Thank you chair. Erm, I don't know if it's worth speaking now, I, I'd like to second everything that has said, and what the auditors have said erm, in the management arrangement. I do thank Mr for this report, but I would have liked to have seen that the chief executive had been a signatory to it as well. Because Hear, hear. it is something whi which affects the whole council, it isn't the prerogative of any particular service committee, and though on environmental matters and public health matters, another mi may be responsible and know more, it is an overall policy which erm, is being developed and needs to be erm, needs to be brought into play. Erm, there is a need, as said, to make staff away of the authorities environmental policies. Erm, I dare say, on all our staff, our staff could make us more aware of environmental policies, and you know, are aware of erm, the need for the environmental action, erm than, erm than the action we are taking ourselves. That er, er, little action has been taken in the last thirty forty years since this has been being discussed, erm, I think the first international conference erm, produced their own report in nineteen sixty. Erm, we had the Rio conference in nineteen ninety-three, erm, we'll still doing very little about it. We the local authority, I think people of Wiltshire expect us to be the lead agency in promoting sustainability and environmental, highlighting environmental issues, throughout the county. Erm, not just taking a back seat, we need to actually promote these. Erm, I recognise that erm, within the report it does state erm, that there is the cost of it, and erm, and in Lancashire it may have cost three million pounds etc, it doesn't say what it specifically was. Since having said that erm, I'm not immediately looking erm, for high expenditure, but I would hope that possibly one particular area, or w er,council, erm, as it were could start operating the system, erm, on a trial basis, and preferably erm, not one which is erm, under planning and highways, though planning and highways and environmental officers would need to help them. would suggest, erm, would be libraries and museums. And I suggest libraries and museums, because I dare say they have the greatest experience in information co-ordination systems erm, within the, within the council, and I think, er, and of course they're highly involved out in the community. You'll find a library in absolutely every community, and reacting with people, and I would like to suggest that erm, a pilot project is erm, promoted within the libraries and museums committee, and that libraries and museums committee consider that at it's next meeting. Okay erm,Mr please. Thank you. If we look at the paper before us Mr Chairman, er, g two, and c thirteen. Er, g two is something which is specifically an envir , part of the environmental strategy. But c thirteen, about the conservation of the water environment and water resources, is a matter which could be incorporated in the county structure plan. As opposed to g two. I was wondering whether erm, the director of planning and highways could, in an update, as proposed by erm, Councillor erm, suggest other ways in which our environmental strategy could be inc er, could, could be strengthened. I have already suggested that c thirteen could become the formal part of the county structure plan, and that would strengthen it enormously. But because g two can't become a, a structure plan issue, I was wondering if the erm, environmental strategy of this council, when it is adopted, er, er,wh when it's formulated and, and, and, and adopted, er, could that be incorporated as an appendix to the county structure plan. I think there are a variety of ways Mr Chairman, in which our environmental strategy, when it's formulated, could be publicised and that's one way forward, and I wonder whether director could perhaps incorporate an argument for or against that,i , in, in,i , in the paper that Councillor has suggested. Thank you Mr . I'm going to bring Mr in in a minute, but I think Mr . Firstly chairman, er er, a comment about the district auditor, I do find it a little perverse, that in fact on the last subject when we were talking about small schools, he doesn't take into account any other erm, item than the financial argument. And then suddenly we find the district auditor making comments about an environmental strategy, which I would have thought was, if he worked on the basis of the last one, rather outside his remit. Erm, I, I think sometimes if he's prepared to talk about such things as this, he should be prepared to consider the advantages to villages of, of small schools, and not just work on the financial item. Erm, when we look at the environmental strategy, I always think that environmental strategies are common sense to people, and that sometimes the involvement of large organizations is sometimes counter-productive. Erm, comment was made of c thirteen, we do when we design our roads, actually already put catchment areas in, so that if a lorry load of diesel happens to split on it that, that there are drains to hold it. I saw that when I, when we opened the Codford by-pass. Or went to it during construction. There are pits down the hill, as you come into Codford, which actually would take the contents of a tanker, if it, if there was an accident. So, already, these things have been done as common sense in the past. Er, and I just wonder why we're trying to re-invent the wheel sometimes at these things. It's probably, maybe member's ignorance that they don't know that, that already a lot of work has been done on it. But, we're in danger very often, with environmental strategies, of taking quick decisions, that are misguided. Erm, and I've been involved in lengthy discussion on behalf of certain people in the trade, one of the largest er, chains of superstores, do-it-yourself superstores. And some of the things that are coming through there, are common sense, some of the things are a reaction which erm, is mis-informed. But this is particularly in the timber trade. Timber trade world-wide is doing an enormous amount of work already to make sure that sustainable timber is supplied, and the horror stories are slowly going away, and a lot of people now do not buy timber in this country, from those countries who've got a bad track record, but are buying from countries like Denmark and Sweden, where it's a national law on their forestry policy. I, I, I believe that a lot of work's going on. I think we have to be very careful we don't take reactions which actually negate some of the work and the common sense that has been undertaken at the moment. Mr Thank you chairman. If I could just briefly address three or four of the points. Firstly Miss 's correct. It, it isn't being approached very vigorously at the moment, er in a general sense because of two things. One is, none of the departments are resourced to give this a lot of attention, and secondly we have been waiting for further guidance from the Government on the outcome, particularly from local government, in respect of agenda twenty-one. Now this week the Government are publishing four papers on, and I quote, The U K's Government first strategy for sustainable development. So Miss 's point is very appropriate to bring a report back to a future committee in the near future, er, that covers the queries that have been raised by members, and the Government's new policies or new proposals, I will take instructions from the Chief Executive on that, and will, er subject to the Chief Executive's review, also cover matters such as structure plan, and the co-ordination of this er, within, within the local authority. And, to try and give options for members, at different expenditure levels of how we may move forward, because it isn't a cheap process, or not if we follow the Lancashire model it isn't a cheap process, but of course we can scale our proposals down. So subject to me taking advice from the Chief Executive, er I feel we can do what members require. Thank you chairman. May I just I think that this has all party support, erm, the actual scheme was produced, erm,f and if the Government is a signatory to that, erm, unfortunately the signatory to it was the environmen ,environmen , environment minister Tim Yeo, who has now departed but it, you know, it does have, it does have Government, Government support, so that it isn't, we're not trying to do anything which erm, the Government isn't supporting as well. And, er, you know, that's just, so that Mr is aware that we're trying to do what John Major agreed at Rio. Okay, I er, we've got a motion, let's put it to the vote. It's paragraph seventeen, eighteen and the additional item added by Miss about a report to the April meeting on what action can be taken to implement the District Auditor's recommendations, and from what we've heard I think that report will also contain reference to today's, the correct response to today's Government four papers erm, on the policy with regard to the Rio summit . And I hope that, and indeed the point about the, the er, what might be added from the environmental strategy into the structured plan, which Mr made. Erm, so we'll look forward to that report, er, those in favour of the recommendations please say aye. aye. And the against. They're carried. Miss . Thank you. Erm, as the person who mo , moved the original motion, I would be very happy to move the recommendations, and to thank Mr , Mrs , Mr and Mr , who are the only members here present who voted for it at the time. Erm, it has actually worked, erm, in that it seems that there's a very fair chance that er, in spite of the very discouraging things that were said by some of the people on my right when I moved this, erm, there is a very good chance now for a reasonable er, settlement in South Africa, which I think should erm, make everyone in this chamber very happy, and it is that, undoubtedly the case that economic pressure had a great deal to do with that. Thank you chairman. Miss moved . You have already second, but I was going to second it, and say how very pleased I am to have the opportunity to second it. Those in favour, please shout it. aye. And the against. That's carried. Item twenty,funding. Er, we have erm, Thank you chairman. Yes I would. Erm, and in fact I would move my original motion as an amendment to yours. And the reason I do that, is that er, I believe that you've er, actually misunderstood what is going on, and I alluded to some of that during the debate earlier, on the budget. I think it's wrong, in paragraph a of your motion, to say the police committee has received privileged funding. It's privileged if you don't want it maybe. The funding, was a matter of assessing priorities, and each time, when that assessment came, the police were prioritised as to receive the funding that was thought correct to undertake the duties that they do in this county. And we know that through that period, there has been a steady increase in the number of police officers the county have got, and this county has always up to now, willingly funded those police officers. Part b of your motion. Yes we know that from the first of April ninety-five it will probably no longer be the responsibility of the county council to set a budget for the Wiltshire police authority. That's all the more reason why you should not be cutting their budget below what they need for next year. You've used, er, er, an underspend from this year rolled over, but you haven't increased the base budget to pay for the projection costs which came from erm, this year's budget. And we all know, that if you put the police into the er, budget next year, in at a low level, that is the level which the Government will assume this county council thinks is correct to fund the police force. So your under-funding next year, and your use of the rollovers, will actually have a long term effect on the funding of the Wiltshire police force, and I suggest that there'll be problems er, ahead on that basis. You refer in part d erm, to recent Government announcements which you say will make the fight against crime less effective. A freeze on the number of police officers, but we know that through the review of the police ranking system, that the Home Secretary has said that will mean a considerable number, and I think the figure of two thousand was mentioned, extra officers will be back on the beat. That's where the public want to see them, not sitting in offices pushing paper. The reduction in the paperwork undertaken by officers will mean a further number of police officers back on the beat, where the people of this county want to see them. Not pushing paper in headquarters and divisional headquarters and police stations. But the announcement made by the Home Secretary went further. And it went further into things like, erm, giving more thought to the problems of the victim, and a little less erm, consideration of the criminal who inflicts such terrible da er, harm onto their victims. I can think now of two elderly people I know, who never, ever got over a burglary. One died recently, but she couldn't ever come to terms with the fact that her house had been burgled, and that the er, that some of her most valued contents had been taken. And I'd want to know that the person who did that was going to be punished, and punished properly. And I think for too long, we've listened to the libertarians who want to think of the rights of the criminal all the time, and er, and don't worry too much about the victim. I think that the genetic er, testing that was, that is now law, has to go a long way towards finding criminals, who once they've been tested will find it very difficult to commit crime again, because they're on record, and they'll be on computer record. Many announcements made by the Home Secretary are moving in the way that I have always wanted it to move, and I believe that er, in Wiltshire this will have a very positive effect. We have already, we believe accepting in Wiltshire for two of the new parish constable erm, appointments. I only hope that the police committee will actually support those and get on towards introducing them, because that is a way of using some of the people in our village communities to erm, to keep an eye on the community and see that those people that shouldn't go round. I hear that maybe, we're not going to support that policy. I hope, and I shall be bringing it up at the next police committee, that we will commit ourselves to that initiative will a view to bringing in those two pilot schemes in the county and extending it at a later date. So chairman, I move my original motion as an amendment to yours. Mr please. Thank you chair. I erm, I think it's worth correcting some of the financial mistakes again, that Mr , and then perhaps give him some more facts on that. The paper circulated demonstrates that since eighty-eight nine through to ninety-three four, whereas county council spending as a whole has gone up by thirty-eight percent, spending on the police has gone up by eighty-eight percent, and that's more than double. Now I, I think that, you know, if Mr 's got any complaints about that, and he says that that isn't privileged, well I think he can only blame his own administration as well as anybody else's. I think surely we cannot deny the facts that the police have received very good funding from this authority, and indeed in this current budget they continue to do so. We've given them three hundred and sixty-four thousand pounds of extra funding, which we could legitimately have taken away as, particularly in the way that it was done, and as I understand it they er, revealed their V I P protection two months early to the Home Office, and therefore cut our S S A by a substantial amount, and I would even perhaps start that as a, as I could, as a series of criticisms about the way the police maintain their budget, and about the way that they have responded. It's perhaps the only committee, if one dare call it a committee of this council, where the chief officer hasn't troubled to come to the budget review and represent the interests of his committee. I can only take it that he wasn't that concerned, that perhaps the Chief Constable doesn't share Mr 's concerns, and is perhaps happy that he has received the generous funding that we state he has. It seems to me that he can't be that unhappy because he's currently managing twelve vacancies deliberately, in order to produce underspend so that he can re-surface his car park, maintain privileged restaurants for his erm, senior officers, chauffeur driven car for himself and build a new hangar for his helicopter. This produced, even despite that, two hundred and thirteen thousand two hundred pounds of underspending in ninety-three four on just general expenses, on operational expenses, now I think if, if the Chief Constable says he hasn't got enough money to do what he wants to do, he could start by spending all of the money he's had this year, in recruiting all the officers he's been allowed to recruit. I think in fact it's a bit of a cheek for the Chief Constable to go to the Home Secretary here ev , Home Secretary again this year, asking for more officers, when he hasn't recruited all the ones that he was given last year. And that's perhaps why he's been turned down. I, I don't think Mr 's actually got any very reasonable criticisms at all, and we must again say, as we often do to Conservatives now, who do you think's been running the country for the last fourteen or fifteen years? Are the dangerous libertarians, or do you mean Liberals, that you accuse of running the country? Are the people like Margaret Thatcher? I hadn't noticed her being soft on criminals, soft on people. But I think the point that you're really missing is that only one in fifty crimes is solved. If you concentrate on punishing criminals, you're still leaving most crimes unsolved, and it is prevention that people are concerned about. Yes, it's prevention, you've got to prevent the crimes being committed, not just chase after the people and hang and flog them once you catch them. And I think that's the, the problem with your focus, because what has really happened, over the last, well I suppose since your government's been in power even, or even before. More and more money has been spent on the police, and it hasn't worked, and that's why everybody's looking round for new initiatives, that's why Patrick Sheehy who after all is chairman of a very successful commercial corporation, was asked by your government to put forward recommendations, that a lot of very unsuccessful police forces rejected out of hand. Your government didn't have any courage then to back up it's own man, and force through some changes, and so I don't know what your policy is, it seems to change every couple of years. But one thing you can't do, is criticise this county council at all, it's simply not our fault. Hear, hear. I certainly can criticise what Mr said. I'll just pick up, first of all one or two of the points he made. Erm, he, he, he er, decried the building of the hangar, in fact that resulted in an infinitely cheaper and better contract, saved a lot of money doing it. Er, I can assure him the Chief Constable more than shares our concerns about his,hi ,hi , his under-funding. Erm, this idea that the police had more more money, yes they have had more money, what, what er, has been very conveniently ignored is the enormous amount of money we've had to spend on special protection duties. That is where most of the increase has gone. Now erm, Mr refers to er, er, privileged funding. This is a total distortion of the true facts. In fact erm, there's been less funding per head in Wiltshire, than many other authorities in the country. Until eighteen months ago Wiltshire, it's no use you keep saying it's not true. Until eighteen months ago Wiltshire was the most undermanned force in this country, and that's not our figures, that was the Home Office formula which produced that, and because of that eighteen months ago the Home Secretary actually granted this force an extra sixty- seven policemen and he gave none to anybody else. I think he gave one, one other county to be fair. And that was the reason why, and in fact the total shortfall, the total unmanning was something like a hundred and thirty-five hundred and forty, which is why the police authority has a bid in at this moment for a, a further sixty-eight policemen, which has in fact been backed by the county council, who are prepared to pay for it. Now the Home Office has said, the Home Secretary rather, has said this year that he's not granting any more policemen this year, but he also said that if county councils wished to fund more policemen, he would certainly look at that. The true fact is we are no longer prepared to fund them, because we've cut the police budget. And erm, looking then at base budget which has been mentioned. The first session we're gonna look at is called Training and . It's just literally about a twenty minute session. The purpose of the session really is to give this training course an overview and also to, to sort of have a for training. What we want to do in this session as I said it will only take about twenty minutes, there are three key things we want to do. One, we're going to look at why well trained staff are, are so important to the C U, secondly we're going to look at things responsibility training is and lastly we want to look at a systematic approach that you can take as training. Those are the three things we're gonna cover in about twenty minutes. Well the first thing that we want to think about is why well trained staff are so important to the company and do this very much a participated session, ignore the tape, I am, I've forgotten about it already! So why are well trained staff so important to the company? You can just shout out any ideas you have so why do we need well trained people? Productivity. Productivity. Yep? Cost efficiency. Much more cost effective isn't it if things to be done once rather than have to do reading them two or three times and generally the reason that things are repeated a number of times is that perhaps people are not really quite sure or not that that are systems, yet productivity the better trained people are people who can do things, get it right the first time and they can do more work can't they than somebody else you are not having to pick it up as the manager responsible and put mistakes right. So productivity and cost efficiency. It gives a good impression Yeah, like so many industries we're competing on good service aren't we and if we do things right it does convey a very professional image of C U to, to, to the company, to the, not to the company, to the, to the market place. I mean you were gonna say something. Any more? So we've got Er yeah that's a good one isn't it? Just as if , if we are in a sort, team leader or a section head as I've shown, it doesn't mean to say that we hold all the knowledge, we can pass it on to others, who can he pass it on to somebody else although you ultimately may be responsible for the training of other people, you don't need to do it all yourself do you, but unless you pass on skills, you're gonna make a sort of a quite a vicious circle for yourself aren't ya? Yeah. And how does training do that? We all like to get things right don't we? We all like to think we can do things and we can do things well. It actually helps our morale doesn't it and it sort of helps our confidence. I don't know about you, but if I had to sort of pass something on to somebody else to check, if I can see somebody scribbling on it, I, I, I, I feel quite edgy, I hate it, I like to feel that I can do it and I can do it well and that other people don't need to have to amend it. There have been a lot of studies done with regard to morale and job satisfaction and it has been shown that, that if people are well trained, they feel a lot more loyalty towards the company cos they feel that somebody's actually taking responsibility for their training and development. How does that help us in the outside world if people know that we we give good training? Yeah we attract a better class of candidate don't we? People hear within the market place that, that we give good training, that we do develop people and it does attract good people to join us doesn't it, whereas very few people want to join a company where you go nowhere, where you're not given any training you stay in the same job for ten years and it does nothing for you. Most of us like to feel that we can join in and we can progress if we want to. Any others? If any decided Yeah. Yeah. We need to sort of plan we need to grow people, develop people. Otherwise if we don't invest money and time in training, we're forced to have to go outside to sort of buy in people, because we haven't actually invested in them. . Any more? I think those are the those are the key things that we want to put across really. I think the other thing is is about erm flexible as well, we've got a flexible workforce. If people are well trained, you've got lots of people in turn you know when you've got absenteeism or holidays, you've got lots of people who could be slotted to different positions for you and obviously the better trained people are, it does help with the talent, it makes you more flexible and you've got more people who can possibly go for certain jobs. Awful lot of reasons why training i is so important to us an and basically it simply all comes back to our statement isn't it,it it's to be a sort of feeding insurer to give unsurpassed service. I mean th there's no way we could do that unless we've got well trained staff. We can't compete on the basis, we can't project the profession if people aren't well trained and people are making slow and the only way we can overcome that is by taking the time to train people. And on a more le local level you're quite right the better trained people there are, the more they, the happier they feel the more work they have, the more job satisfaction they have. There is a direct correlation between morale, motivation, job satisfaction and absenteeism and staff turnover, if people are happy they generally want to stay for us they're much more loyal and work harder and when we're managing an area it becomes a lot easier because we are not having to, people are well trained they do the things right first time, you're not having to correct their mistakes. So training is is essential really, it's fundamental. In fact we'll move on quickly now to have a look at, we've looked at why it's so important. If we spend one or two minutes just thinking about whose responsibility is training? Who do you see as the sort of holding responsibility for training? Whoever's got some knowledge to pass on. Yeah, who has ever got knowledge to pass on. Cos if you were asked as, as, as a person by, by a manager or by somebody else to, to actually do the training, then it's your responsibility isn't it you've been asked, you've been given that task and it's your responsibility to ensure that people are able to do at the end of the session something effectively. Who else do you see as holding responsibility for training? Training Officer. Yeah. Training Officer. That's what they're they're employed to do at any particular site, but they don't hold total responsibility do they? Line Manager's job. Yes, yeah. Line Managers and Supervisors as well are, are responsible for training because as a Line Manager or a Supervisor you're responsible aren't you for training and developing people. That is one of your accountabilities to develop others and training falls into that. Now you may as a manager think well you don't have to do it all yourself, you can use senior people within your section who have the knowledge or you can use training officers or you can use people like ourselves at the training centre or the C B T or the I Vs or it could be that you bring the marketing department to help you out. There are lots of resources available for you, but ultimately if you have a manager or a supervisor in your title, then you are responsible for the training development of others, or in a technical, Louise and Andy the B T As are responsible for the, the technical training, aren't they, of others within, within the section cos you have the knowledge. Well what a lot of people say on the course is I know it's my responsibility, but I always, I don't always have the time to train because there's a lot of backlog, there's a lot of pressure, it's and we all say to them that training is like a catch twenty two situation. If you don't make the time for training due to the work, pressures or deadlines or backlogs, and if you're not training others they make mistakes don't they? If they're not properly trained it's not their fault, people can only do what they can do can't they? If th they don't know if people are not properly trained they are making mistakes then it does make more work doesn't it? Because the mistakes have to be rectified and it puts us under even more pressure because you've got even less time. So training we do need to make the time otherwise it does become a catch twenty two situation. But as you said if it is your responsibility you'll have to do it all yourself, there are lots of resources and lots of other people who can actually help you out who have the knowledge and you can use because you can use it as a development tool can't you for some of your members of the section to to give them some training expertise. Right so we'll just look at the sort of er the negative side of not making the time that we get more mistakes. We have to rectify more mistakes and put more pressure on us. What I'd like to introduce lastly now is an approach that you can take to training to help yourselves and to help make it more effective and more systematic and what I'd like to introduce to you is, is something called the training cycle and the rest of the course is actually based around the training cycle and I know Margaret you've actually seen the training cycle a few weeks ago, I'm not sure if, if any of the others are, any of the others familiar? Yes, I have. You've seen it before. Good. Now for questions in the next session now. Can't remember it though . Great. We've seen training, there have been four major steps for training and the first of which is actually to identify training needs. So before we start doing anything at all we actually do some identification of trainees. What do you think this actually involves? Those that have seen it before. Oh right. Or for those who haven't seen it before. What do you think identifying training is all about? Yeah. Yeah. To find out? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Identifying trainees is all about finding out who needs to be trained and what they need to know and if you remember one of ject objectives we had for the course is, was to, so that by the end of the course you will actually develop a system by identifying the trainees because this is sort of hit or miss. If they're gonna do training well, then we need some sort of system to find out who knows what and what people need to learn. We need some sort of method for finding out what people need to know. The second part once we know what people need to know we now need to think about putting together some training which actually satisfies that particular need. So this next part is called design in training. We're slipping into the training jargon here, but all it is is writing, just putting together some material which is, which is just what they need. If you haven't done this, if you haven't found out exactly what people need to know, the danger is that when you actually start to put together some material it's very hit or miss isn't it? It could be that you're giving them some stuff that we already know or it could be that you're giving them some stuff which is far too advanced for them, they don't have the basics there. Sometimes we know people very well, but it still helps doesn't it if somebody else comes in that there's some sort of system there that somebody else who takes over your section can find out exactly who's received what. The last point then is delivering the training. Once we've actually written the session we can then deliver it and the delivery is generally much more effective if we've put together material which suits their needs perfectly. You feel more confident don't you in a group situation if you know exactly what people er er know or what they don't know, cos there's nothing worse isn't there than to go in and thinking they may already know this, I might be going in an teaching my grandmother to suck eggs here, I'm not sure what they know about this. You feel much more confident don't you if you know exactly what people need from you. You go in feeling better and cos you feel better you'll deliver it in a much more effective way. And the last part is something that a number of you had for your objectives is and evaluation monitoring and evaluating training. Once you've actually delivered it, you then need to find out well was it successful, did we achieve our objectives, did people learn, what we wanted them to learn. This is the very important part of the training cycle and the cycle is incomplete cos there's no good investing in time and training is there if we don't know whether we've been successful or not. If we have, great, we find out what else they need to know. If they haven't quite got it, then we may need to re-do parts of it. But we think the training cycle is something that's continuous. If people are new we need to train them to get the maximum competent level don't we? If they've been with us for quite some time there are always ways we can enhance people's skills aren't there? There are always ways that we could make people more effective or help people to got the wrong flip, but, but to grow into other jobs. So that's the training cycle and we believe that if you follow that approach to training, then it will help you to be very effective and successful. That's something that we definitely do here. Right first of all I said it was an overview and that's all it was. What we wanted to look at to start with was why training is so important, whose responsibility training is and lastly a systematic approach to training. What we're gonna do now, it's just coming up to twenty past three, so we'll take a tea break and then after tea we'll come back and we'll spend about an hour or so looking at identifying trainees. We'll look at what you're currently doing and we also suggest to you something that you could be doing. Any questions? Quite happy? Right, so we'll take tea then. It's just coming up to twenty past three we'll take fifteen minutes. That's a bit impressive Dawn, fifteen minutes blimey. We were only given ten on the first day. unfortunately Yeah and I need the diction I dunno why . Asking questions referring, do you get that situation whereby you're told something two or three times and yet they keep coming back? Is it a training need, or could it just be the fact that if they pass it on to you, they know you're dead? Two aspects of that, but I think that's a good way of identifying training. Yeah, we're on the training cycle again another one. contact with the outside world customer services So what would you, how would you identify from that? There's no margin So we got two then on to errors and erm complaints. Yeah? Yeah. What you said? Yeah. It says, you know broadening it out a bit so we can be a bit more specific. Alright. Changes in job specifications, personnel changes. Reinforced ones Alright changes in job spec I procedures were introduced. Any others? backlog Okay. Yeah, erm By examining people's body language . We're not going to that one now, cos I haven't examined your body language I'm not really interested. Erm right, difficult one that it's like the body language after what?looking at do some work. Amazing Yes, thank you for that precise definition there. What was that, sorry? Yeah you wanna see if they can do it or not you can tell if somebody, if you give somebody something to do body language you can normally Yeah sit at their desk . Now the thing about positives, when identify you know somebody might have training. Now be positive about it. When they've been promoted to a high ranking job. Right, promotion. And if you've got somebody who's gonna be promoted or you think might be promoted in a couple years' time, or even yeah less than that, well what should you be doing? you ever heard a succession plan is? Er you probably don't do it erm you know er so brazenly probably the back of your mind but again key staff, you are key staff er yeah if you actually prepare somebody to take over your job when you're not there sort of thing. So in a way it's a succession plan. What other things might come out? What do we do once a year? Review. What? Review. Review. Anything else, appraisals, yeah things like that? Anyone else . comprehensive list. New recruits ask them what a good idea. Charts of asking questions, if people come to you and ask questions keep referring the same things similar things to you all the time. Perhaps it's cos they don't know the basics. What sort of errors do they make? Persistently make errors and the same with it. Complaints from other departments and complaints from members of the public, changes in job spec er new technology perhaps er backlogs that, people always have a backlog don't they? Is it cos they're lazy, often think it's cos they're lazy don't they? I think it's often because people are always and then it always gets put to the bottom of the pile. Things they're not so sure about . Perhaps might not be it, can't, you can't wave a magic wand and say everything's but they might not. Body language can suggest you have like jumping out a window or hanging themselves or whatever. Promotion, succession planning. We do enough succession planning in C U you know it's magic you know, you know number two like it's smashing number two it's still you know, you know young children, number two has a different connotation to what it does here, but definitely if you are a number two here, it means the same to what a child thinks it is, but I er, and appraisals. All all packets that we can use to identify I really do need people to talk to me. Alright, so that's a brief out overview if you like of some of the errors that we can do. Let's go a bit more specific Job analysis. We do the first bit who needs to be trained what do they need to know is the second Yeah, so what they need to know and why forms a heading Job Analysis. Where do you get your job analysis from? Personnel. What? Personnel. Personnel. Okay, has anyone seen their job spec? Does it actually give you any training on it? It's very broad isn't it yeah. Erm Oh no it's the same sort of thing you're told it when you You're told it aren't you? It tends to be blocked up in somebody's mind what you do. Right, that's the other element, it's what you think they think you should be doing and it's amazing how few people, yeah that's the yeah I talking about, but that's what job specs are all about. It might seem long-winded, but dependent upon er if you get it right at the start with it, it might mean that one of the things we're suggesting er you might say no, it's not for me this, but you might think that job analysis is a good way of identifying training. What they've gotta do and why they do it. What's the starting point for job analysis do you think? What's the first thing you've gotta identify? Yeah, the need for the job er er yeah, not, not quite exactly what I'm looking for,the way of the trainer's dilemma isn't it? I've got an answer for that it's not quite right, what shall I do? Can I just say no, shut up. Or should I and this is all part of it isn't it? Cos he won't say anything to me if I don't know what's wrong erm won't say anything else will he? What results Yeah, alright. Yeah okay, so we're looking for results. The results of this person why are they employed. So the results that we expect out the job. If you get results it could earn a job analysis what would we do? If I, if I was a job analysis person, what will I sit next to you wouldn't I and what would I have missed out? Right, yeah. Another word for main responsibilities. Mm, you're testing me today aren't you! Right. Key tasks What is the person's key task? This is difficult stuff I'm not gonna spend a lot of time on this because it's covered on various other courses as well. Things like appraisal skills er level one level two, various others, other courses that we run. There's your job the first thing I should do is say well what are the key tasks, what are the areas that would mean results? Perhaps a working demonstration might highlight something I'm trying to . Take the job of a receptionist. Who's been a receptionist? You have haven't you Elaine? Yes Right. Let's list the tasks of a receptionist. Shout now, go on,let let's go for it. Telephone, answering it And telephone, answer. That's what you think they do. Er, you're right, erm I can't think of the right word er Re-route. Re-route, same thing as what you meant isn't it? Diverts, if I wrote divert up here you might use it against me in later life. Erm er route, let's just call it route er to correct yeah? Does that make sense, that's for the receptionist we don't expect her to fiddle with the rates for liability, capital or whatever do we? Anything else a receptionist does? Okay? Okay, so it's erm meet public yeah? We need to What? Amuse kids. Amuse kids? Yeah I can see why you gave the job up! Right now Any others, come on, you know just think about some things your receptionist would do. Cashiering, petty cash and Petty cash er accounts yeah? Post It's normally the person that needs it the most actually isn't it, but what else? Anything else you think the receptionist, you might have seen your receptionist do? Well let's leave it at that, we gotta, we gotta we . What is a receptionist paid to do out of that list? Answer the phone customers. This one here? Yeah. Yeah? You've been actually quite specific there, meet the public, erm deal with . What are all the rest of these? Exactly. Yeah. See there's some difference if we go and say what is a receptionist's key task all the jobs that we do at work probably only two, three, four of them are actually what we're paid to do, cos they're the results we're measured on. Yeah? Yeah, if you try and think about it processing. There are lots of things we do to get that form to there, we're actually paid to move that form to there. How we do it and the various other things we do aren't exactly what we're paid for but they become part of the job. Say that they're not part of the job that the receptionist gets paid primarily with these. So what are the key skill areas receptionists need? Telephone technique. Telephone technique. Yeah? Inter-personal skills. Inter-personal skills. Organizational skills. Organizational skills. So how does that now by just analyzing if you had to train a receptionist which would you concentrate on? Does it? At various branch to branch, you messages. Yeah. You do? Yeah? Great. Yeah we learn as well. But perhaps those three are the ones you'll, if it was a new person coming in to the job you'd concentrate on that wouldn't you? In the training without out. You think about perhaps another example Host Host isn't a key task is it? It becomes . Can you remember the tre I nearly killed myself then, another thing you'll learn about training is er that all should be put down and around but if it, if we were to go receptionist now you've got the idea of key tasks anyway. The rest had to be done, but they're called enabling tasks . Host training you first received can you remember it? How good was it? It wasn't really. Exactly, yeah I mean we got trained on Host down here. Now who trained me on Host? Have a guess? Mm virtually but the initial training was done by somebody else lasted eighteen minutes. It was by the manager's secretary who is renowned for her typing speeds. So what happened? You couldn't follow it? I couldn't follow it. Yeah, another element, but what did, what did I need to know about Host? What are the three key things perhaps I need to know about Host if I never used it before? Have a ? How to get out. How to get out yeah. How to review How to review . Those are the only things I need to know to start with don't I? What did I get in the talk in eighteen minutes? How to send a letter and review file, issue file, public file, the whole lot. See what I'm saying is the key task if you break it down is what are the key elements is the first way of identifying a trainee. So,we if we our receptionist if we can say those are our key specifications, again it's a loose idea this is not easy sometimes to look into it, partly because we've been in our jobs for quite a while and you know we don't, we can clarify it, but think about your subordinates and people that might be trained. Identify those first, then you can actually write down what they're supposed to do. If you can write that down what else can you then build on, what's the next step? So you've done your key tasks, you then write down exactly what they are and then prioritize them, so you got training need not very good at answering the telephone what are ya gonna do? Train them on it. If they're no good at typing you gonna . To a lesser extent cos that's their key tasks. A lot of people would say well you're typing, they do the typing first, this sort of thing. So can you see how trainee needs analyses specific to them. What would be the first stage then? Competency you're looking at your receptionist now, because you've identified the key tasks you might say well what's the standard on these things, how good is she at passing on messages etcetera? Bit of a difficult one to imagine a training exercise on passing on messages, but it could be couldn't it? Some of the large switchboards and things like this. So you look at the competency and most jobs have a a standard of performance don't they? Most of us are measured on the some form of performance they do. If you've got that standard you can then identify whether a person is below standard or I can ask you easy questions now and again you know. Christmas or above it. Are we worried about the above it? Could be that we wanna we could raise this even higher couldn't we? Nothing wrong with people being above standard, in fact it's encouraged. What about this is the more worrying one isn't it? If you've actually got a standard for the key tasks, you can actually measure the what we call the performance gap and it becomes much more logical. Again it's not always easy is it? Some of the things are skill areas and it's not so easy to measure the skill area sometimes How are we doing so far? We've lost ya, or yous you with us, be honest, cos I wanna move on? Lost ya? No. Oh, I said have I lost you and you were going No,with us and I It's a way, it's a very formal way of identifying training needs but there are times when you need to do it. You er you just sometimes cross the word poor performer, does that ever crop up? No? It might do, no not in our branch, well yeah, alright it doesn't crop up but we have other words for it. It might be that before you start that if we training you need to see what the performance gap actually is. Because if somebody doesn't know what standard they're supposed to achieve how can they be training then it's like a piece of string isn't it, how long's a piece of string? It's an idea, take it away, think about it. One of the other things that leads off from a job analysis by finding out exactly what a person's supposed to do is that you can start doing things like a personal training log, cashiers, cash sell this is a word this is real life example . This is word that's coming out now of what one department did by a new member of staff. Can I ask to share cos can you just share one for signed copies. It's an introduction cos this is given to a member of staff and he says the first the question is can develop and train all staff. Well if it's not it should be etcetera etcetera. Let's move on to the pages I've got to the actual format here. It's got training need and it's got virtually everything down there that the new member of staff joining the company would need to know. given this basic . I mean something as basic as the family tree yeah Yeah. Yeah? Got a family? I've got a family tree How would, how useful is a family tree for someone? And it's also you know your first few days you sort of you, you become a leech don't you to the person that you know, you know the person sitting next to you. You know I mean it's really difficult you know they go to the toilet they wanna have a crap you know you know they might as well go to the toilet at the same time and all this sort of stuff and yet a little bit of information about that, how long does it take to put together?and various other things you know where's the staff manual kept I mean when I joined, I didn't know purchase and this sort of stuff. staff you know all this sort of stuff. Nice to know but they're very important flick over a page Technology Host pack or Host training. Think about people just joining the company, how long does it take to get up to speed on ? Three weeks. Three weeks . Depends on the job doesn't it, how much they're using, but if they're supposed to be using regularly, surely one person . What do we do? We get people you say well I, you know somebody told me a couple of months back how to use the diary system by you know putting the note in and then dating it when you want to remind yourself been in the company ten years you know all this sort of stuff and it's just useful bits you know the whole and all this sort of stuff. There's so much that they could learn that would help them in their job. Move over we on er Systems Training Technical. Now we start getting into the actual nitty-gritties of the job and there's a whole list of things down here. It says okay all this sort of stuff. The important things though are things like who's gonna tutor them but it doesn't actually does it and target dates, completion dates and tests to be done. How long would that take to put together? Quite a long time. Once it's in place though benefit of it. If somebody new comes along there it is here's our training programme for this person new person . Yeah, don't you feel as though you take some care of them. I joining the company something like that and if they did when you do join a department that does it you have a great sense of belonging, because some of the things you'll do for the training will be allocated to other members round a team, yeah, all this sort of stuff and it becomes very easy, takes a monkey off your back as it were, you don't have to worry . It's just an idea. Again, think about it could it be useful don't know, might be in the long term. Another area that I have the plug. This is an advert now coming up. Have you ever seen these personal development plans? Yeah. Yeah, alright okay. Okay front here. Er the company through the Training Centre and the Personnel Department put together a personal development plan. Think it's aimed at your group and also N Ts and people like that. The idea is that formalizing it much the same as you had, I'd just given and it's got induction er it's got A B C erm there are personal details so that departments people picking up, see where they've gone, see where they've been and in things like skills, knowledge required, objectives start, finish dates how and with whom results comments. It's just a training log that's linked up with the job spec, formalizes it a bit more. What if something like this you know if I give this to Arthur and John and say er they just joined I give them this, this personal development plan, who should it put pressure on should do, yeah cos you should be going up to them and saying well I'm supposed to have done you know X Y Y and they go ah yeah, and then they go up with these excuses yeah . Again it's a thought, these are both group supply.. The contents relies entirely on Yeah depends might go away You have, have to check that through to your manager. Er cos at the end of the day if they don't like something trainees analyses. If you could quickly scan down and see what somebody's done and the levels of competency they've achieved, it helps you think that why aren't they doing the job, it might not be a trainee, it might be somebody else. Another area now this, this is, this is one of my favourite things. You have to shout Margaret, cos I know you've got a problem with . Cos I can't. Have you ever seen these skills matrix before. Again it's an idea we took from I think it's West End or various other departments. We look at our team, it doesn't matter if you are section head or not section head or whatever you're just working the team, you have responsibility for training. What you can do is list all the people down here and then you might have a skills matrix you might also have a product knowledge matrix yeah? You know technology matrix, something like that and what you do you just simply say okay whatever the skills are along here it doesn't really matter. Mr A is good at one, three, five and Mrs B is responsible for the skills that she's good at one, two, three, four, five eight. Mr C Mrs D what does that show ya at a glance? . What else does it show you? Who trained who. Possibly Yeah good stuff. Anything else? Training requirements. Training requirements. If all these people are doing the same job officially in the real world we know that some people are more proficient than others that in some things or others, can you see how quickly go down that line and you say to yourself well Mr A you know he's got all those there great but there are a few gaps. What happens when Mrs B goes on holiday or goes off sick? Who copes, how many people can do task two? Only her, which means that when she's not there who must do the job? yeah. You see, you see how easy it is to build trainee analysis a very simple format. Er I would suspect that very few branches and departments have used anything like this. It's locked up away up here isn't it? just in case. I never thought of it that way. What do they got stars for in MacDonalds? Like, like cooking hamburgers properly or, or toasting a bun properly or personal hygiene I think that's the big standard one! Yeah Always make sure they got that. Thanks for sharing that I was just thinking I'm going to MacDonalds on Thursday so I'll look out for that. Right okay so again it's just a simple idea that shows you an awful lot how long would it take to put that back together? The actual matrix to design it, yet it comes back to doesn't it? What is the job spec, what are they expected to do, but that's a bit, take for example once it's in place, the chance of it changing regularly are quite minimal aren't they? So, there's perhaps an idea for you is when you go back and you wanna get a bit of clout with your boss is to say well why don't we set up a er training matrix just to check where everyone's . Somebody said it was on the, was it you you said you know somebody mentioned charts. Yeah, Yeah, and you encouraged the staff to Oh yeah, they all do it. Yeah. So can we just develop that one says that in our own department they put it up on the wall so people complete it themselves. Well it doesn't go up on the wall it, it kind of goes around so it's not like public knowledge in there all the time. Oh. You send it round, what they want training on and it comes back to the manager That's a good idea, cos a lot of training needs have come from People being trained. people who are trained. Unfortunately that's one of the problems we have is people are sent on courses. Yeah, you're told you're going and we spend the first day overcoming barriers to the fact that they don't know why they're there, they've just been sent and it'll be good for you, you know this sort of stuff. Yeah? Yeah. So you know I mean if you use it perhaps the way as explained it then it's a much better way. What else we got? Okay now who what and why what other things might we need to think about identifying trainee needs? Let's think about the trainee. And when I say, use the word trainee I don't, it automatically makes a connotation doesn't it if somebody who's new to the job, new to the company. It's not is it? They're all trainees when you've been in the company ten years, twenty years you can still be a trainee learning something new. So what things do we need to think about perhaps from the trainee's point of view? What level of training they need. Okay so that's the level of training. Do they think they need the training? Yeah? The type of training that would best suit them. Oh we're on to tomorrow now. Right I think one of the things we'll be looking at tomorrow is learning styles and people's preferred learning styles and what we'll find is that people in this room you'll all, you might have a slightly different way that you prefer to learn. I'm not giving too much away, and that might be quite important. Anything else? Make sure that they get training Yeah, er not too much in one go, yeah. Bit like my Host training. Bosh, I was frightened of the thing for months you know, you know there's always keys and what happens if I press sent. You know you got this, you got this fear that the whole company's gonna get this stupid memo. You do don't ya? This is this natural thing inside me. So not too much in one go. Like you said make sure they understand when they, why they are having the training. Right. Why? quite embarrassed being told Or they think they don't need it. Yeah. Two aspects Yeah What other things might we think about the trainee? to to a certain extent That's another element. Perhaps identify trainees but it might be something that thinks about when we're actually designing training yeah? Okay, so we're doing well so far. What about the more experienced member of staff who needs training? Who is actually doing the training? Any of you, I mean cos we've got a very young group this week, myself excluded! Erm it's certainly a nice everyone on my side. Very quiet What do the, what do the older people feel when you go out to train them? Do they like it? Why not? Yeah, who is this oink coming along here telling me how to do my job better. Yeah? Right. So again think about that aspect of it in identifying training needs. What about the experienced person, what sort of training have they received in the past? Does that help you? One of the things we said the worst training session can be is going over stuff that I already have done, already known, what training have I received that they received in the past? Okay, we'll leave it at that for the moment. What we've briefly done is look at how we identify who needs training. Some are so obvious that new recruits but now don't forget the other the asking bit. What do people want to do? A lot of us ignore the fact that people do have their own development and they want to do something a bit more exciting, but unless we're given the opportunity ask will they want to demonstrate it? Asking questions, referring, they keep doing that all these ideas here perhaps a good starting point is a job analysis. but what are their key tasks, what are the things they're actually paid to do? From that we can then build up the job spec, you know the training needs like the, a little example we and then we can look at competency. How competent are people in their keys tasks, they're the ones we should vote on first off. If they're performing below standard, we've got a gap performance gap, that needs training good identification of training, but identifying exactly where they are performing and how. If they're performing above, what can we be selecting those people for? Promotion or Yeah, very easy way, people learn from a peer group, much better sometimes. Also thought about trainee, what sort of things do we need to think about in terms of the trainee? There's one other area that's just sprung to me about the trainee and their actual ability. Is it worth training somebody who has never, hasn't got the mental capacity to progress to another job or perhaps performing ? how do you know? How do you know. Well that's a picture you build up by doing things like appraisals, assessments, things like that using the other skills. Just something to give you some food for thought is there are two types of ability know what they are? I know. What? Yes. but I don't know how to spell inherent, so I'm gonna write another word innate ability. We've all got innate ability for something or other, you know what innate means? Nimble. Nimble yeah, you know like some people are really good at figure work, yeah and that's brilliant at it, they've got a natural facet for maths and things like that. Footballers, most professional footballers have innate ability don't they as well as professional footballers. What would be the other one then, if that's what we've got inherently? What would be the second one? What we learn. What we learn. Acquired, acquired ability. Capacity to learn if you like. Some people cannot learn very well can they? No. quite difficult to learn don't they? Yeah. You know you can spend hours with them one-to-one, you go through everything, you go through it over and over again. What do they do? You can think of something now can't you? That smile on your face says it all. No matter what you do they just cannot seem to learn. They got you know, their mind is full up with what they've got, they've got no room for any improvement. We have to accept that in life don't we? We ourselves are the same it might one subject area, we might have to get down to take on loads of different things. In other areas we find it very difficult to learn. I find it very difficult to be er to learn Morris Dancing! Why do you think that is? Cos you can't dance? I can't dance basically no. I got no, I've got no innate ability and if you try to teach me, would it be any use?just a stupid example . Other things to think about when you're identifying training alright a handout for you identifying training needs at this stage just to make sure that ya the are still out. Get a bit of a up. all this today. A little exercise for you to finish up with, not finish up this bit . Five minutes. Individual exercise, doesn't have to be I'm sorry I'm really how do you feel left out? Left out, yeah. Yeah, that's quite right see, thing to avoid for training don't leave anyone out. Methods you are currently using for identifying training needs. Methods put to practice to enhance training. Five minutes, before you start it though now that it might not apply to you, you might not have control over training, and perhaps down the left hand side you put well what methods do they use and you might put the other side then you go back and suggest to your boss will you alright. Five minutes on that one. Right your five minutes is up. Something crossed very bad time looking at that brief picture, who wouldn't you invite to a group training session on skill six? It just crossed my mind another thing about this matrix here is you wouldn't bring a those two people would you? Unless they like their training. One of the big dangers of group training is that if the first one hasn't got the skills skills is that he might not get anything out of it. that's like one-to-one training isn't it? Is there anybody you know that, that also have got the knowledge but they find it difficult? You might think you know think back to a few years back when I was in training about a job and you might still think it now, but I couldn't give, put ideas over to somebody on one-to-one training. You know I've been I wouldn't bother showing them some that worked, I'll always pick the case that had some hiccup on it, so the basic skill you were trying to show them never worked out, you know what I mean and it's well don't worry about that, if it was a normal case you know they sit there going what is a normal case, this is a normal case I've never seen anything else before. You might think about not inviting Mr C and Mrs D. You might think about skill level two. Why might you invite Mrs B? might have Mrs B why we're doing a group get the whole team. Sometimes it's worth having a word before you announce training to Mrs B say look, your role in this will be support me and have you got any ideas etcetera that we can talk to. Involve people on a positive side. The other people that have been there a long time know it all and what they, what you say can you help me. put it together on a training session on this and they rely on you and perhaps talk through to the session and say look that when I say this sort of thing, will you be the person that demonstrates or gives me answer you know, this sort of thing. Get them involved pro-actively as opposed to letting them sit there and snide at you cos they know more about it than you do. It's a thought that crossed my mind to help you as a trainer. What we done in that brief session is giving you an overview of identifying training needs and you can go to, I have seen books written identifying training needs and I have read books that thick and they so many ideas there give you a starter. Say if we don't get it right at the beginning what we get out at the end can be very successful. I think the first stage process is to decide who needs training and what they need to know. Er and it's about the methodical approach to training. I've got a bit of time on a Friday afternoon for some training, I think I'll pick Friday afternoon. I could have gone home . Whatever alright, so try and build early start. We move on If we identify our training needs and get them all specific it's gonna help us tremendously designing group training. No two ways about it what we gonna do in this session is list the main stages to consider when designing training. So really it's sort of the stages we look at, we're gonna design a training course or training session. steps that we look at. .And the way we're gonna test this session is when you give your training session on Wednesday. Laughing already. It isn't broadcast to the rest of the manor by the way they got close circuit T V . Er that's how we're gonna test this out, alright, see how you put the structure together . We're gonna look at training objectives see that a bit more, a bit more lively though. I mean look at training objectives. Mm. Mm yes, a bit quiet on this side still, bit quiet on this one. We're gonna look at how we actually set about writing the training session Mm. oh look at that little eyebrow raise Now this is a good one, making the training session interesting. Oh, I think I'm gonna forget about the fourth one preparing notes. Some of it's pretty self-explanatory. Dangerous thing to say we've already said, but preparing notes is lastly down to yourselves, I might give you a few tips on that . What I want to spend a few minutes on again this is something we'll test tomorrow, right so I'm giving you, training's all about doing what do you think? What? Well yeah, er if I'm training you, so prepared it, but, what am I, what have I, what I have to do as a trainer make sure saying? Eh? That'll take up to about half five erm what have I got to do to make sure you've understood what I'm saying? Question. Test. training presentation. In the presentation you get people up front and they talk at ya don't they for a few minutes, try and keep it interesting etcetera etcetera. With training what you're supposed to do all the time? Get feedback from your group to test out . This will build up obviously as we go through the course. The first, the first one that we're really gonna test you on is gonna be testing is tomorrow morning. So you're gonna have to do a little bit of work, just a tiny bit tonight on one area which is your training objective for your session tomorrow. It's the only bit we want you to amend for tomorrow. It's the only way we can test out what we said as having any affect. So we're looking at designing training and the first thing we're gonna need to design a training is what? Subject. Subject. Great. There's our subject I'm gonna train them all on what did I hear someone say? Preferred age No? That doesn't mean er Einstein's theory of relativity. The training to be really effective and to get round to this bit monitoring evaluating training, I need a step. To tell them a subject what's the next step I've gotta do? minute you had me really worried thank you. We need some objectives. What's an objective? Something you want to get across. It is something you want to get across an objective is? What did somebody say? A goal. A goal. spe spe spe spe spe spe it's specific an objective should be specific. What does that mean? Quantifiable, definite. How do you do that?and, and this voice comes out over here What do you think specific I give up you started, you started so you can finish. quantifiable. It's quantifiable. Is that possible to do in training? Quantifiable, most of the training you do can you actually say at the end of this training session you will be able to Yeah? Ah, that's within the training, but if you gotta, if you're gonna train somebody or especially a group of people you've gotta have some objective that is specific. Remember at the beginning of this course what was our objectives? That we'll be able to list training cycle. Is that specific? What else is it? It's it's er pneumonic. Have you ever heard of it? S specific, objective should be smart. Or you could put magical? Manageable. I thought you said magical, I was gonna say well, no. Spelt correctly, there should be an E there shouldn't there? I'm not sure, No. . By the end of this course Ah right achievable for who? Right, achievable for the trainer limited to time aren't we? Could I train you in like Einstein's rela theory of relativity in an hour? It's not achievable for me, cos achievable is for you as a trainer Realistic? Who for? The trainee. Trainee, yes. We're getting there. Trainer, trainee Have you wondered about the, thought about the So there's your objective, it's got to be specific and re-focused on an, on an activity and we should be able to measure training, not always easy is it? Something about skills you know like telephone technique you know how can you measure somebody's telephone technique? Difficult you might have certain standards they must achieve, now for example er answer the telephones in three rings, answer your name and your department is that measurable? Yeah, yeah you gotta check this don't you the B T so you can measure them. Achievable for yourself, can you actually get those over within the training session? Realistic for your trainees in terms of what, are they capable of absorbing them and then time. is by the end of the week and you will be able to process form X Y Z by the end of this session you will be able to . Does that make sense? Yeah. Yeah? How many of your objectives are have many of you got objectives for your training session tomorrow? Yeah, seriously. Who's got objectives? Are they smart? Specific? Measurable? These ones you don't need to concentrate on too much but achievable realistic there's an amount of mixed audience tomorrow aren't we? And you just look down the route now and decide whether they're achievable or realistic. But they're certainly aren't they? Not within fifteen minutes you'll to but at the end of this session you will be able to process how to tell us the five main points five main benefits of a certain policy. A few tips then on training objectives. We went out bit like one of these er soap powder adverts which of these two objectives would you alright given the option to, decide that that is a a good training objective and which isn't so good? The first one just understand it, you want to actually be able to do it. Nine out of ten objectives holders agreed with you on that. Is there anyone not anyone not understand? Does anyone not understand? Which is the best training objective? Training will be able to complete a G S F three six five four. They've got to understand it as well Right, how do you measure understanding? Right, can you see the logic behind it? It's a finite, I'm not gonna spend too long on this. When I'm writing a course or even a session within the course, do you know what I spend most of my time writing the objective after a you know, you know but not after . Before I start I actually spend most of my time writing a behavioural measurable etcetera objective. The argument says in pure training terms is that that one is the best, because it actually says that training will be able to complete the form. You can measure that can't you? Can you? How do you measure that that the trainee will understand? How do you measure understanding?haven't we. Why the fact that they can complete it. Perhaps it's that encompasses that, that is your objective, the second one the trainee will understand how to complete, what does your audience think? They don't have to do it. Because if you in training like one of the things that the big bonus on this course is the trainee will be able to run a training session. Does that focus your light on your coming on this training course? Yeah? We're all benefited competitiveness aren't we? We all wanna do as well as the next person sitting next to us don't we? True?driving courses when our training. So if we actually sent out training instructions the trainee will understand how to run a training session. Should we be so up about going on this course or so worried about it? You wouldn't would you? And I wouldn't be able to attest it. Cos you could turn round to me and say oh we didn't know we had to do it and you could use that as what? So as any guidelines here and there is a handout on this, so I won't, I won't tell you that cos there's too much on here. Where's a bit of paper? In order to write objectives and as I say we're not gonna labour this point because it, it's easy . One of the key things to think about is action verbs. So an example of words we should use are this example and there's a handout to write, to recite, to identify, to differentiate, to solve, to construct, to list, to compare, to controls. You can argue about some of them, I dunno, I don't wanna make a big thing. They're all action verbs aren't they? At the end of this course you'll be able to write an essay on Einstein's theory of relativity. You'll be able to recite Blake's, can't even remember Blake's er recite I don't know, somebody somebody who recited the poem. You will be able to identify is that a good one? Identify, it's not so good is it that one? What about identify the five major steps towards writing a training course? It's more specific. You've gotta think about content but that's a generalization. Words that perhaps will help you are the words we should avoid using. At the end of this session you will know four steps well what does that mean? Am I gonna test you on it? I'm not am I? How do I know that you know? By getting you to do something. You will understand, come on hands up who's going to understand their objective tomorrow? I have, I've got an objective tomorrow it says understanding. Right, appreciate how does, how does somebody appreciate the difference between key plan and a golden key plan? Is there such a thing? No, well it doesn't matter, you've got the idea. Er how how do you grasp a significance of? You see what we're saying, it's, it's the words you use in your objective. You will enjoy being here at this course, you will enjoy the training. You can't test that can you? I certainly wouldn't bother to test it or even dare to test it now. Cos people sitting here thinking oh I thought it was gonna be a lot of fun this, it's quite difficult now. The I dunno where I got these from . Really what the point I'm trying to make is training objectives are about doing something. People are do something at the end of the training and it focuses your mind to the trainer writing material. If you haven't got an objective that ends up with them doing something, or listing something, then you can't test your objectives. We develop those off your training session tomorrow. Alright, so if you, don't worry if you, if you . I shall be available after half past five till about six o'clock if you wanna just I'll be in tomorrow morning at quarter past eight. It's a difficult thing, this has taken years to get objectives and every time the old . Right keep one of them and hand the rest out. Does anyone want a quick break? Five minute tea break, breath of fresh air, haven't got time for a cigarette though, unless you're very, very quick. I'll give you five minutes breath of fresh air, alright? Can I ask you though if you are gonna sneak out and smoke in the conservatory er not in that passageway along there, cos the smoke detectors I will not tell you who that secret smoker was. You coping there alright John have had a long day? No, I'm fine. Are you sure? Yeah. Very much aware of it Still early Leeds Branch We are very much aware of it. Yeah. Order. Er, just a couple of announcements colleagues, if er, those delegates who actually smoke, if you've got any Embassy cigarette coupons, could you pass them to any members of the Northern Region. They're used by the South, Tyneside Local Authority Branch to help buy a camcorder for the Sullivan member who's recently undergone surgery to remove a tumour from his brain. So don't throw them away colleagues, hand them to any delegate from the Northern Region. Colleagues, just to try and let you know what, er I've got in my mind concerning the business that's fell off the agenda yesterday and today so far. You'll recall that the er, Regional reports in the Regional, in the General Secretary's, er report fell off the agenda yesterday and there are a number of resolutions which have fell off, at this morning. What I'm planning to do is to put them back in the order, colleagues could you settle down please, I'm planning to put them back on the agenda in the order that they fell off, and er, hopefully, the first opportunity in that connection may be Wednesday afternoon, but I need to have a discussion with colleagues about that, but I'll certainly let you know at the first available opportunity. Colleagues, standing orders commission report number two, John. President and Congress. Standing Orders Committee report number two. Composite three, contributions earnings related scale, due for debate on Wednesday afternoon will now be moved by Liverpool, North Wales and Irish Region and seconded by Southwestern Region. Two further composite reports have been agreed. Composite thirty two, toxic shock syndrome, comprising motion two five nine, Lancashire Region and motion two six O, Southwestern Region, both due for debate on Tuesday afternoon, Lancashire Region to move, Southwestern Region to second. Composite thirty three, age discrimination, comprising motion three five seven, G M B Scotland and motion three five eight and three five nine, both Lancashire Region. All due for debate on Thursday morning. Lancashire Region to move, G M B Scotland to second. The committee has ruled that an emergency motion from the Midland and East Coast Region, pit review and closures, is in order and will be emergency motion number two. The committee has been informed that the following motions have been withdrawn. Motion one two two, from London Region due for debate on Tuesday morning and motion four two O from Birmingham and West Midlands Region due for debate on Thursday afternoon. The committee has given permission for the bucket collection to be taken on behalf of our colleagues at at the end of the Tuesday morning session. The committee has given permission for a bucket collection to be taken on behalf of the Matthew trust fund at the end of the Wednesday morning session. Will the Regional Officers responsible for all these collections, please contact the Congress Office to make the appropriate arrangements. President, I move. Thanks very much indeed. Conference accepts Standing Orders Commission report number two. Thanks very much, that's being circulated colleagues. Colleagues, I now call er, motion three, rule six, appeals procedure for members, that's for the South Western Region to move. President, Congress and our inclusive visitors as well, because nobody's mentioned them yet. Denise from the Southwestern Region. I'm here to talk about the rule which applies to appeals procedures for members. I don't suppose many have read it in depth, cos to be honest, when do we read a rule when we don't have to, unless we absolutely need it. I understand the C E C asked us to withdraw this motion because they say it is not necessary. Well, my region didn't agree with that, we feel it is very necessary. For those not familiar what happens is, a member puts their case to their branch. If they're overruled he or she can then appeal to the Regional Committee. If overruled there they can appeal to the Central Executive Committee and if overruled there, there's the appeals tribunal. The rulebook states that a member has the right to appeal but it doesn't say that they have the right to be told why they've lost. What this meal means in real terms is a member doesn't necessarily know for sure why they have lost. They would obviously have some idea from the appeal hearing it itself but since they have to put all of their reasons for their request in writing the very least I believe they should be able to have is a reasoned reply. I'd like to demonstrate this by reading a little bit from a letter that was sent to one of our members in this position. It's from the Regional Secretary, I write with reference to your appeal to the Regional Committee of today's date and I have to inform you that your appeal was unsuccessful. That's easy enough to understand. I would therefore advise you that you have the right to appeal to C E C within one month against this decision. Again that's easy enough to understand, it's in the rulebook. The final paragraph, if this is the course of action you wish to take, in the first instance you should write to me requesting that your appeal be heard by the Central Executive Committee. I will then forward your request to the General Secretary. Again, that's fine, but the member had no idea as to exactly why he'd lost the appeal. It doesn't tell you a great deal in that letter. As trade unionists representing our members in the workplace, this is something we would be unhappy with, to go through a procedure with one of our members and know that that member has lost but not exactly know why. I don't think it is something that we would accept. When our member then appealed to the Regional Secretary and said, well, I think I do wanna appeal and go further than this because I feel I'm right, what letter did we then get in reply. Again this is another one from our region. I quote word for word, on the question of wanting details as to why the appeal was overturned, it is not a practice of the organization to give the reasons for such decisions and I would add that I've spoken to the National Executive Officer on this matter and he's confirmed that we are not required to do so. Well, I'm sorry, if I was in my workplace I wouldn't be happy representing a member and then be told by the employer, I'm not required to tell you why you've lost your appeal and I don't think this is something we should do within our own organization on our own members. The C E C I believe are gonna say this isn't necessary. What we need is for every single appeal stage, for the member to at least have the right to know why he or she has lost. Please support this motion. Thank you. Is there a seconder? Is there a seconder for the motion? Formally seconded, thank you. Motion six, rule amendment, to be moved by South Western Motion six. Sorry, I was dozing off over there. Again this is about the procedure that we're following, but we're talking now about rules procedures for branches and I have to say that I'm up here without the support of my region on this one. I understand again the C E C is asking you to oppose it because they say it's not necessary. I would like to ask a question, that if this particular rule isn't necessary, then how does a branch go about appealing a decision made elsewhere in the union's hierarchy? I've just talked about what happens when a branch member wants to appeal but this is a branch as a whole that's made a decision at a meeting that it doesn't agree with something that's happened. Again I've got a letter to quote from, cos we're good at keeping correspondence in my branch. It's a letter from the Executive Services Officer that states, rule six, which is the one I've just been talking about on the previous motion, is quite clear in saying that only individual members can pursue appeals and not a branch. This is the basis on which my branch believes that we need a new rule which covers branches. Because we need that new rule what is happening at the moment? If a branch doesn't like something what does it get the chance to do? Well, it has to borrow rule six, that we were talking about just now. You might say to yourself, well is this a very rare occurrence, so that really this branch is making a fuss about nothing, branches don't have to go through appeals procedures, cos it never happens. That isn't the case. I've got another letter here from the General Secretary. You may appeal under rule six, my branch was told, this is the appeal procedures that refers to members not branches, but it will be well understood you are making the appeal on behalf of the branch, which obviously means we've gotta borrow one to do something else. It's not a rare occurrence because the General Secretary himself says, we've followed this procedure on many occasions in the past. If it's happening so often then should we not be having our own procedure for that to happen? If we look at rule six, and we've all been given rulebooks, if people have brought them with us, what we have to do is bend that rule so that it applies to branches, not members. What I'll do is I'll read you the first paragraph of rule six and actually bend the rule and put those words in and it really doesn't make any sense at all, so listen carefully on this one and don't be surprised if you don't understand me. Should any branch have any complaint to make they must do so to their branch secretary who must submit the matter to the branch, it's talking to yourself. If any branch is not satisfied with the decision of the branch they may appeal to the Regional Committee. Obviously you need to appeal to the Regional Committee if as a branch you're not happy, but this rule shouldn't need to be bent, we should have one that is ours to be used for branches, the General Secretary himself says that it's happened on several occasions so let's be a real trade union, not one that borrows from Peter to pay Paul, let's have a proper rule for branches. Thank you. Is that seconded? Formally seconded. Thanks very much. I call Frank to put the C E C position. President, Congress, Frank replying on behalf of the C E C. Er, as the last speaker said, everybody has received a copy of the rules in their wallet and I would them to take a lo take, take that copy out and have a look at it. Take it out a have a look at it. Have a look at rule six. You've all got it, I hope. Page ten. We're all comrades here so the formalities should go out the window, for starters. The first speaker who was here at this rostrum made the point about er, the right of individuals and it's not in the rulebook. Have a look at the rule, the right of individuals is, is there. Have a look at it. I'll tell you what, there's not a lot of unions with that type of rule in their rulebook. The G M B is one of the only unions in my opinion, unless somebody can contradict me, who use that type of rule. You can take it to your branch, you can take it to your Regional Committee, you can take it as far as the C E C and that costs a lot of money. For one individual, but we're not complaining about that, we accept that. What they're asking for is already in the rule, already in the rule what the speaker spoke about, about er, motion number three on rule amendment, and have a look at it, what the motion states is not what she spoke about, not what she spoke about. Because if you read the motion she is just looking for the rights of an individual and rule, rule six in the rule book applies the laws of natural justice, which we're all for, the C E C agree, we're all for it. So, we are asking the Bristol and branch to withdraw the motion. We're doing yous a favour, our lads speaks plain to you, we're doing yous a favour. We asking you, withdraw the motion. And if you don't withdraw it, the C E C is completely and totally opposed to it because we already have what it's asking for in the rule. Have a look at it, read it for yourselves. Look, I don't want to insult your intelligence, I'm an Irishman right, we don't have a pile of that according to everybody, like ya know. But have a look at the rule and you'll find that it bloody well states exactly what they're asking for in that motion. I'll move onto the next one. We're totally opposed to the next one. Totally. Now, I was gonna tell you a story but I'll not. You see the next one right, the reason we're totally opposed to it, as yous have been bloody debating it all morning, with the Labour Party, and I can't even bloody join it, cos I live in Northern Ireland. Now if lived in the Republic of Ireland I could join the Labour Party, but I can't join it because I live in Northern Ireland, right, but have a look at that motion, what you're talking about. Frank, could you wind up please. Er, sorry President, worthy President and all the rest of it, what I'm saying is that we're totally opposed to it because what you're going to have here is, you're gonna have a situation where branches, branches, you gonna have them fighting between branches and the C E C Thanks Frank. and we don't need that. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Thank you, back again. We're not going to withdraw either of these. Thank you. As has just been suggested, and I also mentioned in my speech, yes please, read the rule, it doesn't say at every stage and that is all we're asking for, that at every stage in the procedure a member knows why he or she hasn't won the appeal. I really don't think that's an awful lot to ask for. He mentioned cost, well one letter's ever so expensive isn't it, just to let someone know where they stand. I'm sorry if that's causing people a problem but that is basic human right. He talked of natural justice. Well, I consider that letting someone know why they've lost is natural justice. In terms of the rule that we need for branches, I've already said the General Secretary agrees with me, that this happens often. What it's got to do with the comrade's ability to join the Labour Party I'm not absolutely sure, perhaps someone can tell me afterwards. But branches need a facility, it's not about in-fighting, it's about something that actually happened within my branch, I'd like to add that we won the appeal, when the branch went through it raised two questions, we won one, we lost one. But we actually needed a procedure, that procedure was followed as best we could by borrowing another rule and it was achieved at the end of the day. There's no animosity within my region on the fact that one person felt one thing and one felt another and as democratic trade unionists there shouldn't be any in-fighting or animosity just because we need to discuss something on which we disagree. The whole purpose of a conference is about disagreeing with each other and then agreeing a statement as a compromise for whatever is reached at the end of the day. It's not in-fighting and I urge you to support both of these please. Colleagues, as, as conference will have heard from the mover of motion three, motion six, not prepared to withdraw and the C E C is therefore asking you to oppose both. Put motion three to the vote. All those in favour? Against? That's lost. Ooh. Motion six, yes it was, yes it was. No need for a card vote, clearly lost, put motion six to the vote. All those in favour? Against? That's lost. Oh yes. Clearly lost colleagues, I can assure you. Colleagues, can I just make a point as well while we're progressing. Erm, obviously, the right of reply er, is not an automatic right. It's where the mover chooses to exercise that particular right, but in so doing the mover cannot, or should not introduce new material and make another speech. He or she should respond to the er, the points that are being made on behalf of the C E C. I mean that's the rules of debate, but I thought I'd make that particular point because it has a little bit of poetic licence er in that . Colleagues. Sections, special report, Section and Industrial Conferences. Can I advise your planning to take this particular debate. We'll ask for the General Secretary to move the C E C special report, that will be seconded by Robert , member of the Central Executive Council. We'll then take motion One one A, one one one A, er motion one one O, motion one five three, motion one five six, motion one six three. Those will be moved and seconded. We'll then come back and I will invite speakers from all the regions in respect of the special report. Call the General Secretary to move the special report, Section and Industrial Conferences. John , General Secretary. Moving the special report, Section and Industrial Conferences and also President if I may, at the same time, moving motion one one one A on behalf of the C E C, rather than returning to the rostrum a second time. First of all, the report. Colleagues, last year as you know er, the C E C put a report before you called Wider Democracy. You'll also remember it was quite a lively debate, history lessons, buckets and spades presented to the platform and a good deal of passion. Er, but that of course was all about the most controversial aspect of the report, which was the frequency of Congress. The rest of the report, which was the role of section conferences and industrial conferences, which have been the subject of fairly detailed consultations throughout regions over the previous two years and appeared to be widely accepted was hardly debated at all. But of course, when the whole report went down, when wider democracy was defeated, we also lost the guidelines for section and industrial Conferences. And that's left us in some er, difficulties frankly, because one of the things that er, the C E C was recommending, that work of a strategic nature, which at the moment is undertaken by industrial conferences should be moved over to be dealt with by section conferences and that meant that a number of industrial conferences need not meet any longer, so we would avoid the duplication, the overlap and the waste. The solution of course is obvious, this year the C E C, no doubt suitably chastened by the vote last year, is resubmitting the section and industrial conference proposals on their own, without any other issues attached. The logic is obvious, we have seven sections now, seven sectional conferences, these conferences must have proper terms of reference, proper guidelines for debate and clear rules as to who can attend, who can speak and who can vote, and that's the most important part of our report. To fill this obvious gap in our constitutional arrangements. The report goes on to recommend changes in industrial conferences, and I've already mentioned that, to ensure that there is no wasteful overlap between the two, and Robert in seconding the motion will go into some of the details of the er, way the new conferences will operate erm, following me. I now if I may President, turn to motion one one one A which amul er, amends rule A five. This is a more difficult issue. The rulebook and the Special Report spell out the nature and function of the sections. They are industrial sections concerned with what is happening in a particular industry, or a group of industries. That's of course why section conferences cannot debate matters reserved to Congress and why national committees cannot cons consider issues within the remit of the C E C. They are concerned with the industry and the section of industry alone, but of course the issue that we then have to deal with is, we must make sure that those section committees, those national section committees, carry credibility with the members working in that section. They must been seen, their decisions must be seen to reflect the interest and wishes of members currently employed in the section, and as we have always believed industrial and negotiating policy is best made by members at work in the sector who feel the day to day pressures, know what is going on, motion one one one A seeks to ensure that this will happen. So this, with some restrictions, confines the membership of the committee to people who are at work. But then of course the difficulty arises because these are difficult times, there is a recession, people are losing their jobs day by day and we didn't think it was appropriate to start applying some guillotine on people's election rights and their membership of the committee. So, of course, we've stretched things a bit . The amendment will of course not remove anyone during their period of office if they lose their job. Of course not, they've been elected for a period, they serve to the end of that period, whether they're made redundant or not, so they go on for the four year term. And also, of course, we've so worded the er, amendment to rule to ensure that anybody who does any work in the sector in the eighteen months before the election period, even of a temporary nature, will be eligible to stand as a member of the section committee. Now, of course, when you put restrictions on that seem to deny any group of members any rights, you must be very careful. So lest any misunderstandings arrive that this is some thin end of some wedge, I should also add that the restriction we're proposing only applies to national committees, doesn't apply to any other office anywhere in the union and to reinforce that point the C E C will be recommending support for a general motion underlining the rights of people who are unemployed or retired to hold office throughout the G M B. Colleagues er, the defeat of Wider Democracy last year left us with a bit of a hole in our constitution. I hope you will accept this report, you'll pass the amendment and complete the constitutional framework of our sections. I move. Could I have motion one one one A formally seconded? Thank you Mary. Robert to second the special report. President, Congress. I have been introduced but there is only one small point and . I am from the Scottish Region and a member of the Technical Crafts Section. President Congress. On behalf of the Central Executive Council I second the special report on sectional and industrial conferences. We need a coherent guideline for the relationship between Congress, sectional national conferences and what up until now we have called national and regional conferences. This is provided in the report. The aim of the guidelines is to set out a clear role for each conference within a coherent, sensible framework. The sectional conferences will decide strategic issues affecting industrial groups within the section. They will be responsible for the overall strategy of the section. The newly named national negotiating conferences will decide bargaining issues affecting members covered by the particular national negotiating councils. But if there is no national negotiating councils then there is no delegates, national delegates' conference. Regional delegates' conference will be held where the regional nat the regional negotiating councils or where there is a need for a regional sounding board for the effective operation of the national negotiating council. They will feed the national negotiating council. So, we have a coherent democratic system for developing industrial and policies within the union. The inevitability of that Congress should pull back, excuse me, the inevitability means that Congress should pull back from indus industrial strategies and negotiating deals, but should be left to the members concerned. Indeed Congress will concentrate on debating and deciding issues of a wide spread and common concern to all our members, such as finance, the rulebook including the structure and organization of the union, our political, economical, economic and social policies. Our relations with the T U C and the Labour Party. Nevertheless, you'll have a great deal to talk about within Congress and you'll have a lot more time to do so. The C E C believe that the report will provide a vibrant, democratic and sensible system for policy making of our union. It will involve more members with decision making taken by those who are responsible for reporting back to the members and for carrying out the effects of such responsibilities. It will enhance the accountability within the G M B and hereby improve the quality of the decisions we make. I therefore second the motion and hope you will support. Motion one one O, Midland Region to move. On one one, one one A, okay. Sit there colleague, would ya? And whilst Alan's coming to the rostrum colleagues, can the, the movers from London of motion one five three, one five six er, London again, one six three, Birmingham, if they would come down to the front and also it would be very helpful colleagues, if regions, if regions have indicated a speaker on the special report, if those colleagues could come down as well it would be helpful. Alan. Thanks Mr Chairman. Colleagues, Alan , Lancashire Region, opposing motion one one A on behalf of Lancashire Region. Colleagues, I must oppose this rule amendment. If passed anyone not in employment for eighteen months prior to nomination will not be eligible to attend any sectional conference. Colleagues, I have members in my branches who are unemployed but still pay full contributions not because they have to cos they want to, they show their commitment to this union, where is this commitment, union's commitment to them? I'll tell you what it is colleagues, it's a case of no pay, no play. Colleagues, it's a good job this rule was not out when Will Thorn was about, eh? He wouldn't have had enough members to attend a meeting, never mind form a trade union. For this union to say only employed members can represent them is disgraceful. Utterly disgraceful. The C E C should be ashamed of theirselves. In our branches, we believe the best person for the job should represent the members, not the best employed person. Oppose motion one one A. Barbara, are you on one one one A? Yes. I had feeling you might be. Er, Barbara , Birmingham Region, speaking against one one one, one one A, the amendment to rule A five with the support of the Birmingham Region. Congress, rule A five seeks to debar the unemployed from taking an active role in this organization. There are calls to retain members, they wanna keep you, they want your money but if you're unemployed you take, can't take an active part in the G M B. They say this to the very people who have been the bedrock of this organization, the very people that built the organization. They who have kept the membership going under the Tory regime and they that have suffered the effects of recession and job, job losses and brought, brought about by the Tories. And now President, colleagues, this organization seeks to ostracize those very people. Rule A five was brought to us by the amalgamation of the boilermakers, who themselves have tried to get rid of this bloody rule. G M B mem G M D, B members are sick of having rules imposed on them brought about by amalgamation. It's high time we kept some of the old G M W rules. Colleagues, I would say, and if you'll excuse the expression, I don't think this C E C knows its arse from its elbow. Barbara, the lights For Barbara, the lights are very strong in here. Pardon. For in supporting rule A five at the C E C by a very slim majority they also supported resolution one five three by an overwhelming majority, which says exactly the opposite to rule A five. Colleagues, the Birmingham Region says, reject this amendment and support resolution one five three. Er, Billy, are you on one one A as well? Opposing. You're opposing. Is, are there any other colleagues, Alan please don't come down any more, please. What you waving at me for John. Right, you're there. Are you, any of you colleagues on one one A? No, right. Last two. Okay Bill. Billy , Northern Region, opposing the C E C rule, what we've just heard about. Congress, as a life-long trade unionist and I might add, it's me golden wedding next year. Because my good lady's always said, you married that bloody union the day you started work. As a life-long trade unionist, colleagues, I have held one firm principle. That principle colleagues, is equality. If this rule change is agreed, we accept that one member has more rights than another. It places member against member, it causes division, it destroys our solidarity and it weakens our movement. Congress, it's against this background, against a lifetime of commitment to equality that I firmly oppose the change. It stands against, it stands against every principle of trade unionism. To hold that one G M B member should have more rights than another, to say that one member can stand for an election, but not another. Congress, our principles have stood for a hundred and three years. By working together we have built a strong and powerful organization. By holding equality as a central principle of our union we have maximized solidarity between our members. That regardless of background, education, race, sex, occupation or age every single trade unionist is an individual member with the same rights and responsibilities as his or her colleagues. Now, let's take the young activist, who starts off in the trade union movement. He starts off in his factory, in his workplace or what have ya. He organizes the place, he recruits members, he's run off his feet and the employer turns round and says, we cannot have this here, this lad's too good,get him out, sack him. Aye, they do . They do sack 'em, because it happened when there was full employment, never mind about three million on the dole . And let's face it brothers, sisters, some of our members have more chance of seeing Lord Lucan riding as they have of finding a job. Colleagues, colleagues. I am not going to insult your intelligence and beg you to vote or oppose this vote. I'm not going to insult your intelligence. But what I'll do if I may, applaud your commonsense when it comes to the vote. Thank you. Mr President, Congress, brothers and sisters and I hope you're comrades and all after this. One lady speaker was right, the sister, the boilermakers brought this rule in. I wasn't at the conference, what a pity. It wouldn't have been on the books if I ever seen blatant sectarianism at its worst it's in that bloody motion . Here were people through no fault of their own, government policy, mismanagement and lo and behold, our union kick us in the bloody face because you're unemployed. Well, I'll tell you this, you oppose this motion with all your might and don't let 'em get away with it . President, Congress. Ivy , Midland and East Coast Region, moving amendment to rule A three. The rule as it now stands is a contradiction. It provides for an annual Apex Conference, it stipulates that the conference shall be advisory to the C E C and all decisions shall be subject to C E C congress policy. It then lays down that no matter shall be discussed that is within the remit of Congress. But all matters are in the remit of Congress. This effectively disallows any subject being discussed at an Apex conference. My branch submitted a motion to the Apex conference two years ago that sought to draw attention to unemployment amongst the white collar workers. It was ruled out of order by the Standing Orders Committee as it fell foul of rule A three, the subject was within the remit of Congress. Last year Manchester Central Apex branch submitted a motion highlighting the dangers of tampon related shock syndrome, arising out of the death of an Apex member. The Standing Orders Committee ruled it out of order under rule A three, within the remit of Congress. I'm pleased to see it on this year's Congress Agenda. Why are the C E C fearful of matters being discussed at the Apex conference? They are the final arbiters, as to where the motions passed at the Apex Conference are acceptable under the advisory element of the rule, my branch are only too aware of this. Four years ago, the Apex conference carried a motion from my branch seeking the continuation of the old Apex rule, providing for Gold badgers at retirement, for members with twenty five years continuous membership. What happened, the C E C refused to accept the decision. The Apex conference is finding itself severely restricted on matters it can discuss by this rule. It needs to be laid down what can and what cannot be discussed by an Apex Conference, my branch wish to remove the present restriction and ask for your support. I move. Is there a seconder for one one O? President, Congress, visitors. Jed , Midlands and East Coast Region, seconding motion one one O. What this motion quite clearly seeks to do is to widen debate at our Apex section conference. It's my firm belief that if we continue to stifle debate on general issues at our section conferences then we also restrict the flow of knowledge within the union. At present, there's no denying that sectional conferences need some guidelines, I mean you only need one experience like last year's Apex conference to realize that. Admittedly the confusion wasn't entirely the fault of the SOC, the mood of the delegates didn't particularly help but the situation was something like this. We were allowed to debate a motion on homelessness but a motion as a previous speaker has said, on toxic shock syndrome, was ruled out of order, as it fell within the remit of Congress. Confused? So was I. Was I therefore to assume that homelessness was an issue peculiar only to Apex members within the G M B or was I to reach the alternative, and I might say equally ridiculous conclusion, that despite its majority of women membership, toxic sock, shock syndrome was not of particular interest to Apex members? Of course not, well let's look a little further into the issue. Section conferences are composed of delegates, who in the main will never get to Congress. If we limit the forum for debate on important issues, such as T S S or for instance, racist attacks, to Congress, then many section delegates may never be exposed to those debates. So, as I've already said, we need some guidelines but are the existing ones the right ones? I would suggest not. I personally would prefer us to be looking at some way of allowing greater scope for debate at section conferences, and where necessary to have decisions on general issues deferred to Congress for ratification or withdrawal. Remember Wider Democracy? Well, if we're really into wider democracy we ought to be promoting wider debate, please support. One five three, London Region to move. John , London Regional Committee. Moving motion one five three, unemployed members qualification for office. Now there shouldn't be any terrible complexity about these series of motions that we're considering now. The motion that we are proposing is fundamentally straightforward. It simply recognizes the importance of retaining the experience of G M B activists in a situation like now where thousands upon thousands are being made redundant and in many cases victimized for trade union activity. So, what are we saying? That as they've been made redundant, as they've been victimized for trade union activity possibly, we then as a union decide that they cannot stand for office? That is what the section report says in certain aspects of it. Rule amendment treble one A, which the General Secretary also took the opportunity to move, does not fully address that situation. It makes it far more complex than it should be. It introduces, as has been pointed out by numerous speakers, the famous eighteen month rule. So it effectively disenfranchises unemployed, long term unemployed people from being active in that section. It's clear to me and I think it's clear to the vast majority in Congress that it's a matter for branches to decide who represents them in the various forums of the union. It's not a matter for ruling people out because they've become unemployed, through no fault of their own, absolutely not. So I've gotta say, that in terms of credibility it's, and the Regional Sec er, the General Secretary made the point about credibility within those sections, and within that, those elections, it's for the branches to, to actually decide who represents them credibly or not and for this, for any attempt to change rule in this particular way. We therefore have got to oppose rule amendment one one one A as well as oppose the Sectional and Industrial Conference Report for the same reason. Both of them in their own separate ways seek to disenfranchise unemployed members. It's very simple Congress, if you support motion one five three this probably will never happen again and we won't have the situation where there's an attempt to disenfranchise unemployed members. I move. Is there a seconder for one five three? One five three seconded. Formally seconded. One five six, London Region to move. President, Congress. Dave , London Region. Public Services Section, moving motion one five six, section conferences. Congress, as we are all aware, since nineteen eighty eight, this union has moved to sectionalization of its membership according to their trade. For example, local authority workers, like myself, to the public services section to the energies and utilities section. A very good concept and is probably working. The difficulty seems to arise within the membership in knowing exactly what areas of responsibility each section has, what are the rules of debate for sectional conferences, are decisions taken at sectional conferences binding on the union rulebook relating to that section and within all of this sectionalization, what role does the Apex conference now play, as those members, like myself, are presumably within one of the other sections too. Therefore Congress, we must call on the C E C to answer the confusion in plain English, so that I, and I'm sure many other of our members, can understand in the form of a document circulated to the branches so that we can go forward into the future at least understanding where we fit into our own union. And then with that understanding I am sure many more members will want to become delegates to sectional conferences, armed with a clear and concise guidelines. Congress, I move. Seconder for one five six. Thank you. Motion one six three, Birmingham Region to move. Rose , Birmingham Region. President, Congress. Motion one six three seeks to ensure that no pre-conference delegates' meetings are held prior to sections, regional and national conferences. I believe the C E C are accepting this motion and therefore the principle that's contained therein. In view of this and after many years of being in the movement and being active in the movement, I know when to quit when I'm winning, so I move motion one six three. Thank you, Rose. Is one six three seconded? Formally seconded? Thanks very much indeed. Colleagues, I now invite er, delegates from the regions who may wish to make a contribution on the special report. Birmingham Region first of all, do you wish to put a speaker in? It would be helpful again colleagues if er, potential speakers er, will come down to the front. Sorry, are you speaking on this colleague? Yes, well you'd need to come, oh you're going round that way. Okay. Er, Jim , Birmingham, West er, Midlands er, supporting er, the sectionalization of the union because erm, we were told a few months ago it was passed for nineteen ninety one. Now I heard John speaking about sections a minute ago and he said we need guidelines. The reasons that we need guidelines now is we hadn't time to study them at the time and up to the present moment, as far as I'm aware there's one section that's just been formed a couple of months ago. So, we didn't have time to study them to see exactly where they are, to see what relationship between congress, the C E C and the sections. Now, up to now we've met, it's probably a step forward but it will need careful monitoring because there is utter confusion as far as I'm concerned with, I don't know whether Apex is a sister union with us or a section and I don't think Apex know the difference themselves. The other problem we've got, and I will call it a problem, is the relationship to beat with, with the sections and elections to regional councils, in the union, where there's not enough people or just barely enough people to stand for a section and they're automatically elected. Now that can create problems between one person who's elected and a person who is not elected. Now that would need looking at, otherwise Birmingham and West Midlands er, accept the sectionalization. Thanks very much indeed, Lancashire Region John , Lancashire Region. President, Congress. My experience of the new sections are working, doesn't fill me with any enthusiasm. I accept that they are a new concept and they may be an, an improvement in time. Nevertheless, I am concerned in three areas. The first and the most important is accountability of this Congress. All the national officers are held to account, they have to give a report of their activities and delegates can challenge them. Motions can be put forward and ones carried become the mandate for those officers. The section conferences are a merely advisory body. Motions debated, even if they are carried, do not become a mandate. The officers just take their advice, this is not accountability. If a motion about a particular industry cannot be placed on the agenda, that of our congress then we lose the accountability. It is essential that this right is not lost. The second is the expense. As the number of sections grow, another one is planned with the then the cost of having these section conferences will, I believe, become astronomical. We've had the debate over whether or not we want our annual conference and that argument was won. Despite the cost we voted for our annual conference and I have a feeling the argument will be back again some time in the future, based on the fact of having sectional conferences and an annual congress, the cost is too high. The General Secretary and the C E C have to be quite clear, the cost will have to met by other means than altering our annual congress. The third is the condition imposed on who can attend as a full voting delegate. The present rule denies any delegate who's been out of the industry for eighteen months is discarded. What right has anybody, other than the members in that section deciding for themselves who represents them? We may have members who been unemployed longer than eighteen months. What right has the C E C to say they can't? If the members of a section want to vote for a full-time branch secretary, there was a member of that section, who's been a full time branch secretary for longer than eighteen months, what right has anyone got to say they can't? It's disgraceful. The next thing is that when the vote comes to the General Secretary for the union, anyone who's been out of the particular industry for longer than eighteen months won't be able to vote. We wouldn't accept that and why should we accept this for this section? If the General Secretary and the C E C are prepared to take the regions' concerns into account and adjust or alter the way the new sections are organized then we will support. If he can't give that assurance in his summing up, then we will be opposing. Thank you. Thank you John, Southwestern Region. Chair, Conference. Sheila , Southwestern Region. As John has already told you I'm sure you will all remember the debate last year, the wider democracy and I s I'm sure you remember you overturned it. Well colleagues, I hope that the guidelines for section document this year is supported. Colleagues, this document is surely the way forward for a progressive union which represents so many, many members spread over all aspects of industry. And in the scope and authority section of the document it gives the right for section conferences to have the authority to discuss and decide strategic issues affecting their industries. Surely this must be the way forward for the G M B and a much fairer and democratic way for our grass root members, who after all are the backbone of this industry, it's their we discuss at our section conferences, it's their wages, it's their terms. They have a right, they have an import. The Southwestern Region supports the document. Yorkshire Region. Ron , Yorkshire, North Derbyshire Region, speaking in support of the special report on sections and industrial conferences. President, Congress. Yorkshire and Yor North Derbyshire Region welcomes this report which will standardize the structures of all the sections of the union. It will also ensure that decisions which affect our members are made by the activists employed by within the appropriate sections and industries. This will lead to greater accountability which I am sure will be welcomed by Congress. Sections are the best way forward for the union. Following the est the establishment of the public services section, I was lucky enough to be a delegate at the conference held in April. At that conference the number of delegates allowed for more lay activists to be involved. We achieved a better profile and there was more positive debate about recruitment and retention. All delegates were in attendance at all times throughout the conference. Structures that increase participation, encourage debate and widens representation and gives responsibility to activists to develop policies that affect the future of their industries will strengthen the, the sections of the union. Yorkshire, North Derbyshire Region commend the report to Congress. Northern Region. President, Congress. Peter , Northern Region, supporting the special report. Congress, last year the Northern Region voted against the special report titled Wider Democracy, which is very similar to this report. Similar, colleagues, but not the same. The Wider Democracy, as we all remember had one important difference. It called for an end to our tradition of holding an annual conference. Well, Congress, on two separate occasions the Northern Region informed the C E C that without the attack on an annual conference we will be pleased to support secal sectionalization. Well, colleagues, eventually two years on, finally the C E C has listened. They have removed the attack on our conference and at last we can now get on together to build a better union. Congress, on that basis, the Northern Region supports the report. Conference, I move. Southern Region. Orelia , Southern Region, speaking in support of the special reports. President, Congress. There is a need for consistent approach in regard to sectional conferences. To avoid to sectional conferences, to avoid the current confusion as a result of the changes within the union . The proposer provides the opportunity for conferences to deal with the industrial and political issues in a more rational way. Regional and national conferences will deal with industrial based issues, leaving the sectional conferences to decide . This structure will also show that our members' contributions are spent in an acceptive and efficient manner. This proposers will give the sections credibility and affirm the G M B as an amalgamation, friendly union. Southern Region supports the report and urges Congress to do likewise. Support. Thank you very much Orelia. Scotland. G M B Scotland No Scotland, G M B Scotland. I need it this time. Conference, chair. Mary , G M B Scotland. Congress, Scotland supports the report for industrial conferences. It's the way forward to attract and meet the needs of other unions and possible amalgamations and merges. I am speaking from my own personal situation. We came to the G M B from the workers. Many in our branch recognize the need for the strength, the baddening , the experience, the equal rights, health and safety, training opportunities within a large union, but they were also very worried about losing our own identity. Within a union as large, as diverse, as it is, the sectional conference has, in our case, helped allay many of these fears and concerns and our own clothing and textile industry is still as active as ever. I support. Midland Region I say you aye. You're not from the Midland Region. Transfer you if you want. Er Steve , Midlands and East Coast. Er, colleagues, Congress ninety two defeated the special report on Wider Democracy as is mentioned in this report and as John has previously mentioned. Er, and it was plainly obvious why. But as with most documents that come as packages er, we either have to accept the good with the bad or say no, and enough's enough. Now, last year in defeating Wider Democracy we did leave ourselves er, in limbo somewhat, with regard to the sectional, industrial conferences. Er, I'm personally glad to see the appearance of this document so that we can clarify the situation with regards to these conferences. The recently formed energy and utility section held its conferences, regional and national, earlier this year, and from the report-backs I received er, they were a great success. The conferences were held actually, shall we say according to these guidelines that you have before you erm, and it was felt that the remit of these conferences has already and will in the future erm, increase democracy, accountability and the efficiency in decision making processes in our union. The Midland and East Coast are supporting the document based on our region's successful experience of our sectional conferences and the need for these guidelines to be adopted along with the rule amendment, so as to enable future sectional conferences and delegate conferences to know exactly where they stand. Now, we did have a, a very heated discussion and concern was expressed regarding the rules governing eligibility, section and conferences for delegates which excludes those who have not worked in the industry or craft or trade for eighteen months prior to their nomination. Now, we could be denying a lot of very experienced noble colleagues the opportunity to contribute to debates, quite probably through no fault of their own, as we all realize. But it was felt though, that it was necessary to support the document in order to clear up a rather unsatisfactory situation er, where we're holding sectional and delegate conferences that don't have remits and guidelines er, which can clarify their position. I've been asked to ask er, a question also on appendix three, procedures for regional delegate conferences where it states that copies of the reports of regional delegate conferences shall be forwarded, forwarded to the regional secretary. Erm, the appropriate national industrial officers branch secretaries and the main workplaces in the industry. We would ask, because it's not actually clear erm, what that means, that the report from regional delegate conferences could be forwarded to all the G M B representatives at the main workplaces so as to keep all our members fully informed of the proceedings er, say again, the er, Midland and East Coast are supporting the document. Thanks very much colleagues. Well, I lasted. Right,, London Region. Speaking on a proposed section conferences guidelines and of course, rule A five. President, Congress. I'll speak on behalf of the London Region against the sectional conferences report and also, of course, rule A five. And our main concern is that it is victimization, the unemployed, in some cases, it will also victimize the sick and the disabled. Hang on, where am I? That no member of the union should be prevented from holding office or be active in any part of this union simply because they are unemployed, sick or disabled. But most of all, it's an attack. But most of it's an attack by our own union against what has been in the past the most active members of this union. It's important that when a member is made redundant that he keep in contact with his industry, so that he's in a position to be able to regain employment and also regain employment for his, for his or her fellow unemployed. And what a better place to achieve this,industrial conferences in our own union. Come on John, think again. And what is long term unemployment in this day and age? I can assure you, it's nearer to five years than eighteen months. The eighteen months out of Trade Rule made some sense when this great nation of ours had something resembling full-time employment. And that was twenty five to thirty five, forty years ago. But today, with highest unemployment levels for many years, it's not the highest ever in some of our own regions, it's a lot of nonsense. John, all this will do is make, is make re is make it, hang on, I lost it. Hang on John, all this will do is make at least a quarter of our own members, in this union, to be inactive in their own industries. I say it's a vicious attack, that's been set upon them, by this vicious Tory government, over the last fourteen years is not enough. John, two years ago we invited you to and introduced you to the Chamber of Commons, among other places, as a modern trade union leader. But this victimization against some members of this union is not an act it's not an act of a modern trade union leader. It is an act of lunacy. Congress, both I and the London Region urge you to oppose this new rule A five and all the boilermakers as well. We know that in this day and age it's unworkable. Congress, please, careful on how you vote. Mould this lot of nonsense down, because me as a boilermaker had to live forty four years and there ain't enough people are still working to be able to run the sections . Thank you. Liverpool Region. Ian , Liverpool, North Wales and Irish Region. Our region's got a free vote on this document so in that sense I'm not necessarily expressing the views of the region. People'll have to come to their own conclusions. In relation to the Special Document, whilst I support the document er, as far as it goes with one exception, and that's in relation to the unemployed members, but whilst I support it as far as it goes, I don't believe it goes far enough. I don't believed it has addressed a number of issues. It does not address the question of the establishments of regional committees of sections. It does not address the question of establishing regional conferences within the section in order that delegates can be elected to the national conferences. And also, it doesn't address the problems of the anomalies which exist between the various sections. I am a member of the largest section of this union, that's the public services section, yet we are only entitled to a hundred and fifty delegates when we have two hundred and twenty thousand members nationally. Those anomalies need to be addressed with the er, establishment of another section, when amalgamate with our trade union. No doubt they will have their own terms. One of the ideas of the C E C setting out guidelines is in order to bring some consistency to proceedings. Well, we've not got consistency when you've got different rules for Apex, different rules for CAT, different rules for , different rules for the public services. I think the C E C need to carefully think out er, the way they wanna go forward. Last year the document was defeated. I think the reason for the defeat was mainly due to the, the biannual conference issue. The C E C have had twelve months, the sections have been up and running, they should have learnt from the experiences over the last twelve months because all that they've done is presented us with the same document with the exclusion of the one issue of the two year conference. The final point I wanna make, we in Liverpool, more than anywhere else, understand the consequences of unemployment. But we also understand the consequences of political unemployment. We've seen activists sacked, we've seen activists been unable to, to get a job. They go on a list and they cannot get work simply because they've been activists. Let not our union discriminate against the activists like the bosses do. Colleagues, I call upon the General Secretary to respond to the debate. Well colleagues, John er, General Secretary speaking on behalf of the C E C. First of all, the section guidelines. There was, I'm glad to er, note widespread support for the section guidelines, as one colleague says, we were left in something of a limbo and we've gotta fill that gap. Taking some of the questions that were raised I think we can deal with them quite easily. It's certainly the case that we need more publicity for the sectional structure and you have a broadsheet which is being circulated, which starts the process of publicizing the structure of the union, how the regional and industrial structure works together. Accountability was raised by John. Well, the national secretary's national officers are of course accountable to the C E C, they are accountable to congress, the introduction of section conferences means that they have another, an additional level of accountability, which doesn't replace the accountability to the C E C or to Congress, but supplements it and subjects them of course to a closer scrutiny and a closer contact with the major activists in a whole sector of employment. That seems to me to be a major step forward and a number of delegates accepted that. The cost, there is no doubt the section conferences will cost money. That was a point made very strongly last year. The intention, however, as is clear from the document, is to cut back on the number of industrial conferences as that work is being swallowed up by the section conferences and as Robert in seconding the report made perfectly clear, industrial conferences, now called delegate conferences will only be held if there is a negotiating body for which the delegate conference has to frame policy, or in a number of other very limited situations. The role of the whole time branch secretary was raised and we, what we've done here, is to continue the practice that operated in respect of national industrial conferences, and it says on page four, as is currently the case for national industrial conferences full-time officials and branch secretaries not working in the industry may attend by arrangement between the region and the section secretary with the right to speak but not to vote. We've just rolled over exactly the same rule, exactly the same provision. Er, Ian, Ian made the point about some inconsistency and there is some inconsistency between the section conferences. This is an attempt to bring a greater level of uniformity than we have achieved so far, but we are bound by agreements made at the time of amalgamation and we cannot undermine or contradict those particular decisions, and that's why in a few cases, particularly in relation to the size of conference, there is some slight imbalance. That's not something we can address immediately, while the ink on the amalgamation document is still wet. Regional delegate conferences. Well, we're going to try to provide the first steps towards uniformity. We may have to follow up with other arrangements in the future. But we need to fill the gap, and by the way colleagues, I think it is appropriate, just to end this particular section of my reply with the comment that at the public services section conference from our count forty percent of the delegates there had never been to a G M B conference before. The argument about the establishment of sections was about industrial identity and it was also about widening the democracy within the organization, bringing in more activists, giving them a say in their own conditions of service and in the strategic issues affecting their industry. Forty percent additional delegates brought into the decision making structure seems to me to be a fine tribute to the establishment of the sectional structure. Motion one one O colleagues, we have asked you to oppose. This is the motion that says that the Apex conference would be able to debate issues of a general nature which are appropriate for this Congress, the decision making body of the union and for no other conference in the union. There's no point in trying to fudge this, you can only have one governing body and this is it. If you try and fudge it and set up three or four, say they can all discuss the same thing, you are building in the ability for major conflicts. If people want to discuss matters of general concern, they must get themselves elected to this Congress. If they want to establish questions of industrial concern, they should get themselves elected to the section conferences. I know there's some unhappiness in the Apex conference about the way things went in the past, I give this small amount of advice. The Apex conference must come to terms with the nature of that amalgamation and that said that the Apex conference would concern itself with matters of interest to white collar workers. Matters of general interest have always been reserved here. We can't compromise on that principle, we have to ask you to oppose motion one one O. And now we come to the difficult issue of the amendment to A five, one one one A. Many of the points that were made, in fact I think all of them, were made in the discussion within the C E C. Is it unfair to ex er, isn't it unfair to exclude unemployed members from any part of the union structure, isn't this a kick in the teeth, isn't this a way of undermining the position of unemployed workers? All of those points were made. On the other, just wait a moment and we'll come to the other side of the argument because the argument is carefully and evenly balanced. The other side of the argument is this. From time to time national committees will have to take hard decisions about the strategy for that particular sector, that's what they're there for. And from time to time because they will take those hard decisions, those decisions may not be popular. And they will then be asked to demonstrate their credibility. And if, and this is not a theoretical point, it's happened in another union, if the majority or a large number of people in that sector, on that committee are not working or have not recently worked in the sector, then tensions will begin to arise, concerning those members who are working at the moment, and say hey, hold on a minute, perhaps people working in the industry should make these hard decisions. The question doesn't apply in respect of the conferences. We've said people can go to the conferences with the right to speak, not the right to vote, because that principle applies, but the right to speak. They can go there as they did with the industrial conferences, but we have to make this careful balance between parts of our membership. We're not making the thin end of the wedge, we're going to support the motion from London Region. The general statement of commitment for unemployed workers, the unemployed people, the general statement of commitment to ensure that they are not excluded from parts of the union. But this is the industrial decision making body of the union. That's what the section committee is there for and the C E C after balancing these arguments decided that with all of the limitations, with all of the stretching of points and so on, on that basis, we should come down and recommend to you that only people who work in the section should be eligible for election. That's my reply to the debate on that point and colleagues, thank you. I move one one one A, reply to the debate on the other issues. Right colleagues, I propose to take the vote now. On the special report, section and industrial conferences you've been recommended to accept by the C E C. All those in favour? Against? That's carried. Motion one one one A, rule amendment, rule A five, the C E C motion, being recommended to accept. All those in favour? Against? That's lost. It's going to be terribly demoralizing this, for the C E C colleagues. Don't make a habit of it, please. Motion one one O, rule amendment, rule A three. Will the Midland Region withdraw? No, okay. C E C are recommending you to oppose that particular motion, motion one one O. All those in favour of the motion? Against? That's lost. Motion one five three, you're being recommended to accept. All those in favour? Against? That's carried. Motion one five six. Again you're being recommended to accept. All those in favour? Against? That's carried. Motion one six three, you're being recommended to accept. All those in favour? Against? That's carried. Colleagues, I now call Mick to deliver his report on public services section. That will be followed by er, a very lengthy debate on the public services. Mick colleagues. Mick, just before you start. Colleagues, I know that people are starting to move out, and I'm sure that it's got nothing to do with Mick's appearance at the rostrum, but colleagues seriously, seriously for the last couple of days we've had a great deal of disciplines so please try and be as quiet as possible. Mick. I wouldn't bank on it. Thank you President. Congress, Mick , National Office. It's now fifteen months since the Tories were elected for a fourth term and what've we seen since that election? More of the same. More attacks on public services, more attacks on workers rights, more privatization. Attacks affecting the old, the sick, the young, the homeless. Those members of our society most needing and most deserving of our quality public services. In local government alone, between now and April nineteen ninety four, it's been estimated that anything between thirty three thousand and a hundred thousand jobs will be lost. Our own, jointly commissioned with the T & G ke community, showed a loss of seventy thousand jobs and a deficit of seventy one million pounds. Since nineteen eighty eight, again local government alone has shed over five percent of its workforce. The new round of compulsory , the reorganization of local government will threaten many more jobs. Many of those jobs will be white collar workers. The figures for the health service are no different. Our union, Congress, cannot stand back and witness thousands of public servants, many of them our members, become yet another statistic in the unemployment figures. As a union we need to build a broad coalition with the providers and the users of public services and if necessary, with the employers. We have got to protect not only our members' rights, but our public services, and from this conference today we've got to make it quite clear, to central government, that we demand investment in our public services. We demand investment in the infrastructure. We must demand investment in training, in education, in order that we can provide those quality services. At a time when across Europe governments have been devolving power downwards, in Britain we now have a system of central control, unparalleled outside of the former Soviet Union. But we should not be surprised by the Tories' attack on public services. We all know their attitude, public is bad, private is good. As long ago as nineteen eighty six, the treasury stated in a supposed confidential document and I quote, most of the savings from contracting out are because contractors can offer poorer conditions of employment, contractors can eliminate costly bonus schemes, overtime pay and provide little, if any, sick pay and also avoid National Insurance contributions by means of part-time work. All of those that we have fought to build up through national and local bargaining over many years. And we've got an example here today, colleagues, of the Tory dogma on public services. Within the balcony we've got representatives from Tylers at Crawley, representatives of twenty three of our colleagues, who have been on strike for twenty weeks in defence of jobs, in defence of pay and equally important, in defence of safety standards and I applaud our colleagues from Crawley. We've gotta expand upon the magnificent work that the Southern Region and our colleagues have done, and if necessary we've gotta take our campaign against Tylers to national level. Our ongoing successes with and the acquired rights directive will eventually put a halt to the attacks on public workers' rights. However colleagues, let's be quite clear, that is not the end of competitive tendering. It is not the panacea to all our ills and also we've gotta make it quite clear to the Labour Party that they cannot use and the acquired rights directive to include compulsion in competitive tendering. Competition, yes, compulsion, no. But the attacks upon services is not the full story. In addition to the attacks on jobs, public sector workers, many of them who are poorly paid, part-time, many of them women workers now face an effective cut as the government attempts to restrict pay increases this year to less than one point five percent. Even by the Tories own , this pay policy will remove some one point five billion pounds from the pay packets of over eight point six million public sector workers. I would suggest to this conference and more importantly to this government, that that is no way to lift this country out of the recession and it's no way for us to run an economy. And now we hear rumours that Lamont's successor is now actually talking about extending that pay restraint into nineteen ninety four. The message from our Congress must be quite clear. You're not on, we will not be made the scapegoats, with public sector workers will not pay for the Tories' mismanagement of the economy. I've spoken about jobs, I've spoken about services, I've spoken about pay. But the other evil part of the government's attack on public services is that it is an attack upon democracy. In the past the electorate had had their say by holding accountable, either centrally elected or locally elected officials. We had deb democratically elected representatives on our health authorities, on our schools and on our planning authorities. That's not the case now colleagues. Government appointees, over forty thousand a lot of them Tory grandees or supporters of the Tory Party, now populate unelected quangos which control many of our public services. Our commitment to quality public services, they're efficiently run, publicly accountable and operated without exploiting workers, must be and will be our main goal. Quality public services provided by public sector workers, funded by public money, responsible and responsive to the public. Our union with its long and its proud history in the public sector does not seek confrontation. We seek cooperation. But the message must be quite clear. We will fight to protect our members, our services and our democracy. I commend my report. Colleagues, we are gonna deal with that section of Mick's report that deals with the public services and that commences on page thirty four, thirty five, yes. Er,, East London region. Where is it, oh yeah. It sounded good Mick, I mean it's your first year and I wasn't gonna come up here, but I thought I might as well start as I mean to go on. When I read your page I felt like I was listening to a Party Political Broadcast of the Labour Party. You know, telling us everything about the Tories, what they've done wrong and to go on from that, not telling us anything about how you're gonna put it right. Well, you know, Donald came up here year after year and took a real tongue lashing and you didn't really put anything down there that could be criticized this year but you said we're gonna fight. Are we gonna fight, how we gonna fight, because the local authority people are fed up with doing all the giving. Local negotiators like me take a lot of stick and I'm just gonna pass that stick straight on to you, because my members tell me all the time, I pay one thirty five a week, well so do I. So I want a service and I want the service from you. And I'm looking for you to satisfy me because I haven't found a man to do it yet. Er, thirty five Follow that. Er Liz , Midlands and East Coast Region. Mick,you your report rightly identifies community care as a services our members' job security and working conditions. I will be grateful for any information you may have on private home care cooperative. With the systems from the local authority and the cooperative development agency, a pilot scheme has been set up in my area. Is this peculiar to Leicestershire or is it the shape of things to come, because my members are concerned. They really believe, and I also believe that this is a back door entry to privatization. Thirty six, thirty seven, thirty eight. Yes. Dave , London Region. Erm, under compulsory competitive tendering, Mick. I'd like to know why it's taken so long for this union to work again er, with the regulations in public services. At a recent training course that I've been on apparently public services could have been protected since nineteen eighty one. Why is it only recently that we have started taking cases up? It's all very well earning compensation for our members but what we want in public services is our jobs, not compensation. to Fulham One branch, London Region. Mick, what I'd like to know is and this links in with our other discussions this morning and also something that Mary er, mentioned yesterday. Jack wrote an article in Tribune saying that C C T was a good thing in some respects. Now I know that many people out there are absolutely appalled by this. Now, I'd like to know Mick, does Jack talk to you, does he talk to your counterpart in the T & G? If s if he doesn't why not and would, would you please tell us what possessed him to come out with such a, a remarkable statement and I think this goes to the what we're talking about this morning. People like Jack are supposed to represent us in Parliament and he comes out with nonsense like that. Thirty nine Yes, Duncan. Duncan , Lancashire Region. I wanted to base some comments about the UNISON's er, section of the report because er, I think it's Now look at our country, we are absolutely by we want more , we want fewer regulations, we want to be able to live on an island, without being told what to do, by the politicians, and I support the view that politicians ought to stop telling individuals what to do. And this particular public regulation is all about and protecting us from ourselves, and although we do need protection from of the world, we don't need protection from ourselves. Right, thank you. No other, no further contributions, right we can start recommendations. right. To be noted. Agreed. Agreed. Agreed. Thank you. No. No. No. Right. Well, it's not a positive action that is noted, as we're actually saying that we've we've read it, basically. Can we now move on to Appendix B. We've not really understood it, Chairman. Appendix B. Right, Chris has already been through this part of it. Does anybody like to make a contribution on Appendix B Right,the point is that we're accepting that we support it, and that the Association of County Councils and that's the International Affairs Sub-Committee of the A C C be informed of the County Council's support, of the options set out in Appendix B. Is that agreed? Agreed. Agreed. Thank you. Can we now move to Item Thirteen. Paper L. Director of Corporate Services Report. Could I just say, that erm, the record of the erm issues of re-grading, longer hours, and so forth I noted the comments made on it. Thank you. Anybody want to raise any item, either on the covering sheet or the Appendix. recommendations Is that agreed? Agreed. Agreed. Thank you. Final item on the agenda. this is a record of the erm, circulars that have come into the County Council, if anyone casts their mind rapidly down the list, you'll see one point five, one point five, one point five. Seem to be almost anywhere except on over the page at the top, where it says one point four, and that was er, local authority fire brigade, other than that Right, any questions. Recommendation is that, is it the report be noted. Agreed. Agreed. that's the end of the item. Thanks for your attendance. I declare the meeting closed. Five pounds. Nobody put five pounds on the table, eventually. Ah. I didn't, I would have I would have accused that Jack would actually publicise this as another Westminster scandal. Right, thank you. Thank you. What do you want done with this? I don't know, have a word with quick word with Jim. Unavailable. eighty nine, I mean nine ninety one. I'm ninety one, And and I'm born the last day in April. And whereabouts were you born? On Street. And er, could you tell me a little bit about your family? What did your father do for a living? Me father was a showman. And how did he come to be that? He went to er College, and he used to wear a mortar board, cos that's the tassel hanging down, and this here thing. And me mother, she lived at , that's not far from Peterborough, and she er Me father used to go to this here farm, me mother lived, and of course they got in with each other, then they got married and then they wanted to buy a caravan. He wanted to be a gypsy, what they used to called them, then. And er on the road. He used to go to Goose Fair, and all the fairs, whatever they was, but it was only for three days. Did you do a lot of travelling around the country ? Oh , miles,mil Never stop anywhere, only three days, so we got no time for anything. So what about your schooling, then? Schooling? Well to tell you the truth, I went to own school, when it was er winter, when it comes the winter, they bate somewhere for the winter, do you see? And I went there for a little bit, and then we moved on, moved off from there, do you see? And er when I did go to school, er all the bottom of er Mill there used to be all sand banks, and me and the other girl, we we came from this school, to look at this here man with a bear, a big bear. He'd got a pole, with a bear dancing round it. And I know the little tune, what he danced to,tiddly-om-pom-pom, tiddly-om-pom-pom,,tiddly-om-pom-pom . And another with a German band, he'd got everything on him. And you know what that tune was? Dee- da-dee-da, la, la, la, tiddle-diddle-liddle-liddle, da ah ah . I don't kn And can you tell me a bit about your mother, did she ever work, at all? Well she Me mother, she worked, she had to work. Everybody had to work, and them show people could take a er big machine down and put them up. Do you see ? ? Everybody'd got to work, and know and something. Everybody. And did you have many other brothers and sisters? Mm? Did you have many other brothers and sisters? Well, they had about twenty. And y all involved in doing the show-work ? Ch eh, everybody'd got to do something. On yes. What what did you do then? Pardon? What did you do? How did you help out? Well, I was like the rest, I'd got to help out standing at the stalls, like . Roll up my lads, roll up my lads. Come on, . my duck, try your luck. Come on you, try your luck. Eh, that's a good lad. Hit him at top of his head. See? And all that kind of thing.. And what what stalls did yo ? Eh? What stall did you have? What had er boats, we had hoopla, and er a coconut shy,, what you call it. Now what did we use to say to that? I've got a lovely bunch of coconuts, they're all standing in a row, big ones, small ones, one's as a big as head, oh give a twist,of the wrist,the showman said. I've got a lovely bunch of coconuts Roll up my lad, roll up. Penny a ball, penny a ball. Roll .. Erm d so what el Did you go to church at all, or anything like that? Oh, I went to church, oh yes. And we used to have a little card, when we went to church we'd got put a little star, in the squares, and if we didn't go we got a good hiding. See? So we'd got to take the card and show her the Mother, we'd been. Now erm let's see, now you know at er bottom of Lane here? On the opposite side, on the l on the left left hand side? All fields. Where where am I? D down there, all fields they were. And on this side, erm corn, cornfields. And er that ain't been long been built on, that hadn't, nineteen er twenty nine those houses were built, do you see? And er let's see, oh and here in Street, there used to be a little. And at the corner there was a , and at the back of that , this , there was a little pub. You used to have to go down three steps, and they used to fetch the beer in a jug. Then it er it er came on Lane, do you see? Take it off, again . Now er Now could you tell me a little bit about your school life? Do you remember any teachers? Well I don't li er I was in one class each time I went. I never got out that number one class , you see? But I could do it, I could do me sums and everything, but er I never always in number one class. Wherever I went, I went school, I was in number one class, do you see? But I should have got higher if I'd been stopping. Do you remember any teachers? Pardon? Do you remember any teachers? Ah, only Miss , and Miss , and I can't remember the others. I remember going to 's school, and er they put in front of us, I were very young, put in front of us a lot of s colours, cottons. So when it had come playtime I went home. I said, They've put this here for me to eat, Mam, and I'm not going to eat cotton. She said, Well, you're not going there any more. So, we when packed off and went somewhere else, do you see? That's how it was, I never went to school proper. And did you have any other friends? Did you have any friends from school or any friends from your neighbourhood? We didn't stop for neighbourhood, we used to be , it was r everybody mixed up. So how did you make any friends? Through the through the show people? Oh yes, mhm. We er You always made friends with people, could talk to people and if they want to miserable they can be miserable, you'd got to tell them a tale, whether you know it or not. See? And that's my trouble,i it comes out like that? Mm. Did you remember of the things you did with your friends? Any things you did when you played? Any games? Hopscotch, when we'd got a pavement, we'd more fields than er pavements . . And we used to have er we used to have some donkeys, and we used to have to get those ticked. Push them along, you know? And er horses Oh I could saddle a horse and r I can ride a horse,no not racing horses, you know, but I can just ride them. We used my sister used to shove me one side, my Dad used to say to her, Go fetch them horses, out the field. She says, Alright. So my sisters er When we was coming down the lanes, now them country lanes, weren't all done nice, they were grass, where the carts used to come through. And I used to like the gates, where because sit on it, get on the gate and get on the horse's back. You see? And er I remembering Dad, once he bought a cherry tree, and went up to get all these here cherries off the trees, and when we got them we used to wipe them and put them in a bag, and sell them at the fairs. Do you see? Er a coconut, erm brandy snap, and all that kind of things. And we used to have skittles, and what you'd got to do, for skittles you got to throw to knock them down, do you see? I used to have to shove them up, they used to get knocked s , if they won, a few little ducks, you see? And er So how old were you when y you left school? Or wh wh when you started working Oh. proper? Let's see, you ain't got it on here. Ah, I'd be er, when I left school? I don't know. What was your first job? Well me first job was d er down lace market, and I worked in Street, Hill, and at the back there was all lodging houses, do you see? And at dinnertime we used to look through this window and we could see all the lodging houses, and under the beds You could see them in bed. And under the bed there was a basket, and we used to see the chap come down and wash these, what was in the mass it was kippers, and conga eel. It's true. Then they used to come down the street, I've got some lovely conga eels, stinks a bit, but not a deal. They're awful, the were what was under the bed. And then I used to have t er a wicker basket with three wheels on, taking parcels to different firms. And er we used to go down , and you could er shake hands with each other from each bedroom window, down there. And what they used to sell a er er at er in the lace market at dinnertime, they used to make a big roly pudding, like that, with jam in it and sauce on it, white sauce, it was more water than sauce, you know? Them was used college puddings. And er it you get? Oh we used to have to get hap'orth of the er this j this er r er jam roll, you see? And Can you remember your first wages? Yes, I can. Four and six a week. Yes, four and How many? What were y ? What hours did have to work? Er eight o'clock at night, eight in the morning. Now when er when I was coming down er , coming from, I lived on the Green then, to go to work, we used to met er a person and we used to call her Rosie. And she'd got a big black hat on, and a big black cloak, and all er crosses down here, and she's got a boot on her arm all laced up, and nobody'd know whether she were a man or a woman. And she used to live er in , in the lace market. Then there was another one, outside the church, they'd made a hole for a man to sit in there, and he used to sell papers. Then there was er . another one, what do we ca ? What did we call her now? Oh, she'd got a relia religious mania, and she used to sing beautiful. Mm. All of them. Now what else was there? As I'll have to fetch it off, I've got Did you do a any other jobs at all? jobs? I got no end jobs. You know, when I used to take my parcels, well I used to say to him, How much would you give me if I come and work for you? Sixpence. I says, I get four and six. Alright, we'll give you five shilli I left. I went to another. And how many different places do you think you worked at? Oh I remember when I was when I was on the Green, there were two ladies, there used to be a pub called the er erm What was that pub called, now? Anyway, it was on the Green, and she says to her, I'd like a drink. She says er, Alright, let's go and have one. , is that it? . And er when they got er they went on a little whisky, well there weren't much about threepence, do you see? She says, You know what our Joe wants for his dinner, tea? He wants herring. She said, Can't afford it, can you? She says, Can't. So you sup up, and have another whisky.. What were your bosses like? Eh? What were your bosses like at work? Oh, they were alright. Now I remember the boss Mr , oh won't tell you his name. Er well his Mr and Miss er n forgot her name, but I do remember that when the Titanic went down, these two persons, well they were going away together. See? But they got down. That were nineteen eleven, when that went down. Do you remember any any of your different bosses? Wha what they thought about you? How did they treat you, you're different foremen You what? and things? You what? How did your different bosses treat you? Oh, they was alright. Yeah, they were alright. I er I were very active, you know, I was. . They used to have the Years ago, they used to have er big and lace, like this, and I used to make all that bandage, for the lace. And I was downstairs and they used to be up upstairs was the man what cut all the stuff up, do you see? And er tt there used to be whistle, you know, like a telephone is? We used t er we used whistle, we used to blow this whistle and tell him what material we wanted, do you see? And that were exciting. He used to shout at me, and I used to shout at him. . Oh they was alright with me, everybody were alright with me. And er ? I'm just trying to remember that j Oh erm down on Road, here, where the vicarage is, it used to be a pub, because the vicarage were over here at once upon a time. And then it went down there, and then it was er er a registerer , and then the vicar come from this place, here, down to that one. You see? And er just round the corner on Street,, there were two two houses, that was a prison. There. And the cellars were there, where the men used to be, but they're all down now,y so you can't say anything about all that lot now. And er Can er Tell me a little about your friends you had at work, going back to your talking about work. Can you tell me about any friends you er you made at work? Oh I were making up friends I was. I can make friends with anybody. Do you remember any any funny stories you that can tell us ? Eh? Do you remember any funny stories ? Oh eh, and not half. I . I remember my mother saying to me once, she says er, I've got a lovely dinner for you today, my duck. I never used to have much to eat, you know? I says, Oh, alright then, I said I can see everyone checking the er basins in the big oven,my duck. I says, Alright. And when it come time, you know what it was? Mashed potatoes and turnips. Have you got a dinner today,? I says Aye. You see? And sometimes I walked down lace market for me dinner and m And er we used to have to go on er on green, for three penn'orth a breast of mutton, to make stew and hap'orth of mixed potherbs, and do together and it were lovely. That's how they used to live there, at them times. Did you have many many friends outside of work? Yes, our mother used to says to me, she said erm, Now this here's , my duck. This is when we settled down, from show business. And she says b and be careful with it, I says, Alright. So that's all we got threepence. So be careful with it. I says,Al alright then, I will, Mam, and out of that threepence er I used to save a penny a week, well a penny was lot then. And i I got er twelve shilling saved up, well that was a lot of money. And er she says, Where did you get that money from? I said I saved it Mam. She says You're a very good girl, she says Now will yo we shall have a nice Sunday dinner, you see? And we used to go, she used to go down er down the , down town i and fetch er er a fish what were left, threepenny cod for about tuppence, you see? And er there might be some sausage, a it, it was alright then. And er oh, we used to have plenty of er stews, and dumplings in it, or er spotted dick, what we used to call it, with a c sauce on it. And er I'll have to knock off a minute. Can we take it on a bit now, could you tell me when you got married? Nineteen thirteen, when I got married, and me husband was a lace trader. And he worked at , up . And he got me a house at , two shilling a week, and eightpence for coal. And how big was the house? Oh, one up, one down, you go down the entry, round the back for the water, and the lavatory was round the back, and in this lavatory somebody hung themselves . And I said, I'm not going to that lavatory no more, he said,Where yo where you going then? Yes, and then er What did I do ? Did you carry on working when you got married? Oh, I had to do. And when I started children I used to go out scrubbing, and cleaning. Taking me children with me, too. One at each end of the carriage, for one and six. And how much did your husba ? A day. How did your husband get for? He got twelve shilling a week. Twelve shilling a week, he got. And after that he was er T B and he had to go in hospital. So how did you manage to pay for that? I had to go to work, go get another job. Anything. There were no er, there was no assistant, then. If you got, so what I got. Up and down the Green, selling selling it. I'm us I were used to selling things.. And what type of thing? How did you? What type of food did you buy, because it must have been difficult stretching your money out? Well, to tell you truth, up Deadman's Street, there used to be a big er meat shop, and we used threepenny wrap up, we used to get two chops, piece of liver, three pieces of sausages, for that, threepenny wrap up. And did you used to make cheap And we used to get the fish flaps, but nobody else would have them, you know? Two pairs of flaps. Er how many children did you have? Ten. I've got six living. I've got four sons and two daughters. And there's Ho ? three on them, on the pension.. Ho ? How did you manage to look after them on such a small wage? Oh, I looked after them. I used to wash at night, and get them all dry, get up in the night, iron them, and take them to the pawn shop. Did you have to take a lot to the pawn shop?. They used to take flat irons, women's corsets, or anything. And if you'd got a good suit, you'd take that, then fetch it out for the weekend, so they'd looked decent, and when you took it back on Monday and he said I'll have to drop you on that, Ah, so you won't this week. You see? This d That's true, my duck. Yeah. Now, what about at home,h how did you do your cooking? What did you cook on? Fire. And I lived in a back-to-back houses, and concrete floors, no no carpets on. that them back-to-back and on Saturday night were the , when our mother, when they used to go out. Next door, they'd got a lot of kids and they used to play marbles, and they used to bounce on these concrete floors. And if they'd had a row, you could hear him. I wouldn't half . And was used to have to er I'm talking about on the Green, now, we used to have to go er right out the gate, half way up the street, for water and the lavatory, it was hard to pull up. And you'd got to take a knife, in one hand paper in the other paper in the other for business.. Well, must have been hard doing your washing, then. What Well we did it. your washing. We did it. Oh aye, boil them on the fire, oh aye, we . I always kept the kids cleaned. And can you think of any ways you you managed to spin your money out? Well, when I went to live at , the kids are growing up, do you see? And er one of the daughters used to work at Lane, Ah, that's it. Lane. Now,tha this place at Lane, they used to make typewriting machines, and that. And she'd got to say whoever er work for least money, got the job. Now they used to call er black sheep, Players, angels. But the other place, Barlop, er anybody who worked for less, they did. While we were bad off she had to take that job, my eldest daughter. And when she come back, her had were covered in splinters with er bits of stuff of the machine. But she left there and got another job in. And er the other daughter, when we lived up , she had to go there for six er , and I used to ge had to get up, and bring her right down the lane, and then I'd got to walk back, up that lane meself, you see? I'm still here. Well, thanks very Eh? much Mrs , Eh? Thanks very much. . I ain't bore Just talk like what you've been doing at school and things like that. What've you got Brett? Pen. A pen haven't you. What are all these look like? What did she look like?television it's not be is it? Pretending it's Friday. You're pretending it's Friday are you? Yes we're not gonna forget to sing happy birthday today are you? No. When he come in and give him a big kiss. Can somebody please go and watch Chloe a minute? What? Er if you don't stop eating those biscuits there'll be trouble. Go on. Go and see Chloe. What you drawing Kaley? No I'm writing the date. You're writing the date. Are you writing Friday then or Thursday? No more cake Friday. No more cake Brett. Your dad will No more no cake. No cake. No no. Oh no no no. No no no cake. Dear me. January What you shouting at Brett? Where're the matches for the birthday cake? Kaley I'm just going to put this in the bin. Watch that Brett doesn't touch anything on the table. Right. There's his eyes. Whose eyes? Jack Spratt. Ooh. Some people have got work to do. Right who's gonna help set the table for daddy. Come on then. Knives and forks. Done this last time. Okay. Brett come out of the window. I didn't know what it was. What? Making that funny noise. And what was it? It's when somebody comes in mm Well then. We're all going to sing You're gonna sing what? Steady. Wait till I Right well you sing it first. I think I've forgot the words. Get off the table. You can't have any cake until teatime. Just happy happy they're hat on and he's coming out to play. And is that a picture of the sun? Yes. That's very good. Now you have to sing it. Oh. Brettsy. The sun has got his on hip hip hip hooray. The sun has got his hat on and he's coming out to play. Hooray. Hooray. Hooray. Right now we are going to You're a person. Brett sorry. No no . Brett stop shouting. Oh You smacked me He's scream at me and . Brett now you stop that this minute. Kaley I want you to go upstairs and get me a pad for Brett please. Hurry up so that he's got a paddy on at teatime. Come on Kaley. tea. What? Tea. You're gonna have some tea in a minute when daddy comes. Yes. Yes. will be here. Six o'clock. Ooh. Teatime. You'd better watch and get that paddy first or there'll be trouble. What? Oh my goodness. He's a monster. Yes . One two one two three four What? One two three. Are you gonna have a potato fork? There you are. On the table. There's the potato knife. Three there's four aren't there. Steady. Put them on then . There's Francis and Kaley's. Kaley come on. What did you do at school today then? What? What did you do at school come and tell me. What? Oh. Gotta smack. You gotta smack. Who smacked you? Potato smacked you I don't think he did. Potato power mm. Sing a song Brett. Hooray hooray. Hooray. Kaley did you do any sums today? No? What did you do? Did you do some writing then? Did you do all your work from the . Yeah. So you've been good then. I think wants some tea. Wants some tea. I think she wants some tea. Stop banging Brett. Mum. What? I want I want there's some there's some and I know just the answer to the question. What? What've you done? Pick it up put the knife down now on there. Now pick your fork up get down and pick it up. What? Oh just pick it up. What you doing? Pardon me? Really mm. Yeah. So we're get you having some tea now mm? I wish daddy was back I wish daddy was back. What for? You starving? No way. Well he won't be long. But will the chicken be cooked. So what did for you today ? She'd been sick. She'd been sick. Why did she eat something that was nasty? No. Then why was she sick? I don't know. Get down Brett this minute. you have to go and my dad where where it was just clean and you could just sit on it but nowhere Sarah's side. Where'd she been sick do you know? She'd been sick on the floor. She'd been sick on the floor. Please don't sit on the table. Right to keep us going Kaley don't be silly. Kaley Hey boys. Who are you shouting ? What? Did you get a paddy for me please? One oh look at that clever girl yes. Another one? Brett put them down please. Where's Kaley's gone? Well put it down. the paddy. Hurry up Kaley. Where's Francis ? There. In there? There mum. There. Come on. Come on one two three. Oh dear pick it up. Just a minute just a minute. Watch this here. Pick it up Brett. Can you find it? Have you found it? Yeah. Oh. Come on then. There's a good girl. Brett what are you doing? Come on. Get up. Get up Brett. Well what are you doing for god's sake? What? Where's it gone? Not there. Right you get a . Who's this look? Who's that? Is that Penny? No. Penny the doll. The doll. The doll yes. Get your fingers out your mouth. What? Hooray one two three. Another one. Another one. Another what? Kaley. Kaley. Coming. Kaley. Have you got the paddy? The paddy. Tea. I said have you got the paddy? Where is it then? What a nut-case. Will you put those down please. Give Kaley hers back now. Want something to eat. Give Brett his give Francis his. I want something to eat. Well just a minute daddy'll be here soon and you can have some. Get down. You can't have the party without daddy when it's his birthday. Well I'm starving. Did you eat your dinner at school? Yeah. What? And I eat my pudding. Oh. We had The dentist said to daddy if you drink lots water after you've had something to eat then it stops your teeth going quite as bad. Because you can't wash them after food. And then you won't need so many pulling out next time. Er stop arguing please. Mama we had a What would like to eat then? Something. What can I have to eat? My bread bun? No. with the chicken. If you eat a bun or a cake you won't eat your chicken. to mummy that letter. I'm hungry. Mama . I'm gonna get do you want to wee wee? You have a wee No. You want to draw? Well go in the sitting room where your drawing pad is. Come on. Want to draw . Come round here then. Come and get this paddy off. Come on we'll just get the paddy on before teatime. What's the ? Shut up a minute. I don't care if you're starving or not you're not getting anything before . Lie down. Well why don't you just absolutely fold him up?yourself. Well share it. Mm? You I'm gonna fold it up. Okay. And then I'll back you. Is it is it ? Is it a music park. Amusement. Brett get off daddy's knife and fork now. Don't you wee wee in that paddy mind. Where's your turtle one gone? You can ask Shirley as well. Ask Shirley if Brett went on the at all. Ask Shirley if Brett went on the . Ask Shirley if Brett went on the . Can I tell dad something? Ask if Shirley's there. He is he is my your mum's . Look just put the phone book down. Can I tell dad something? Tell dad I wanna tell him something. It's all gone. Toy's eat it all. What's going on? Kaley you get some milk out the fridge please. Oh. Right there's gonna be trouble in a second mind. Kaley you can talk in a minute cos when Shirley comes back Shirley wasn't there. Kaley don't cry. Brett give Kaley a cuddle now. No. Yes you villain. Milk. Ee you've gotta You what? Brett on the head. You naughty boy. Now get off. Did you hit Kaley? You kiss her better now. Kiss Kaley this minute. Give her a kiss. Kiss it now. That's it shake hands. Right . I'll tell you what we need to do with you. What? Those fingernails done. Yes you should look when you fell over they were all broken. What did oh my Look at them they're all broken. How long did daddy say he was gonna be Francis ? minute. Oh . The chicken isn't cooked. Did you tell him? No. Daddy's I wanna tell him that I'll tell him that Francis will you come off the floor and go in the sitting room until I shout you for tea. Shall we have some of this? Yes I think we should. There's the mouse. There's the mouse in the house. What you sticking your fingers in? What what. What? It's not funny Kaley. When he's been putting his fingers in that birthday cake there'll be trouble. He hasn't. Have you? No. I Stop it. Do you have to make so much noise? Yes. Why? Cos we like to. You're giving me a headache. All this noise in class. Oh is that why you're getting kicked out? Ha? That's why we did it . What's the matter with you? Brett. What are you getting all excited about misses aye? Yes. Mum. Mummy. Boo. Come on then fetch . You get off those cakes or there's going to be trouble. Look you can't have a cake. You've got to have some tea. Come here. Come on. Give mummy a cuddle. No. Give us a love. Oh don't bash me. Don't bash me. Which one does Brett want? I know. Which cake does Brett want? Which one? Pink. The pink one. I one. The chocolate one. He's not having it Kaley until after tea. Not yet. You can have it in a minute. When daddy comes. You going to tell daddy you've been a good boy today? Yeah. Had three and a cocoa. What's Chloe doing? Don't hit her be careful. I've read your home messages. No after Tuesday. So what we gonna do with Kaley. Or Monday. You little toerag. That's naughty. He punched me in the eye. He's a villain. What? There's one two Have you been eating this cake? You've just wee weed in this paddy. You're supposed to stay . Where's Aunty Susan? She's at school. Who was that at the door was it Aunty Susan and coming from . And we're gonna sing happy birthday to daddy. Mummy's card. Where's card? Are you gonna watch out the window for Susan? Oh you're not doing that you've already . No no. Yes yes. No no. It's not a joke . Right. Aunty Susan. Let's not all shout. Let's all be quiet. That's a good idea Francis. But I need to get some quiet. Aunty Susan Aunty Susan. Gone. Gone. Who's gone? Gone. Who's gone? Chloe. Oh what's the matter now?chair Francis . Why don't you go to your bedroom until tea's ready. No. Yes. Don't want to. I think that would be a good idea. What are you doing Kaley? What did you say you were doing? Let's have some lights on. Mummy. Mummy. Mummy. I think the chicken's cooked. Mummy . well why not? Mummy. Who's this? Who's this? Great Aunty Susan. Who is it? Is it anyone or is it It's not is it? Yes. Oh no. Have you got . What you gonna say? Don't forget when you see daddy what you've got to say straight away. Happy birthday. Aha. You come and give him the present. Me? Yeah. Come on. Let Francis give it him. What's this then? Oh thank you. It's ooh. Thank you. Nine? Erm, mm,. Yeah, have you, have you reviewed your revision to see sort of how you're doing and how effective it is, and why it's getting you down and. No. No, how Mm. how is it going, just plodding along with Yeah. you know, got more of this, more of this to do. Yeah. Er, is there any of it that you really enjoy, or sort of enjoy a little bit, or think oh this isn't too bad, or. Mm, Or don't scream at the thought of? I don't know, it's something, no, I'll just plod through and. What have you been looking at in the maths. Mm. I've just been going through it really,the textbook. And have you looked at some of these bits at the front to tell you how to make it more effective and. Couldn't see it. Right, okay. I mean this is where it starts, with the number system, erm, do you know what any of these terms are? Do you think it's important or interesting to know? Erm. People keep talking about reals and rationals, and, okay, erm. Negatives. Powers. Are you happy with negatives? Yeah. And powers. Roots. Roots? It's only free rationals . Rationals. Rational and irrational, it's just a sort of, the Greeks had a funny term for it, if you can express it as a fraction, think, seventy five over two hundred and ninety seven, then it's a rational number. If you can't, if you can't find a fraction that fits then we just say it's irrational, so can you think of a, any examples? Get numbers that you can't express exactly? You can't express exactly? Mhm. Like nought? Mhm, no, you expressed that very precisely. Erm. What's, what's pi as a fraction? Three point O, as a fraction, one over three point, four. Some people, some books say, oh take it to twenty two over seven or things like that, but it's not, and the approx , what you get off your calculator is only correct to however many digits you've got on your calculator, Mhm. you can never, people have found pi to millions of places, and it's still, they still don't find a pattern where it repeats, so those are the irrationals anyway. You know what a prime number is, and we had a quick look at, we had a look at the primes that even odd, didn't we? Erm, why are prime fa , do you know what prime factors are, and why there useful? Why are they useful? Er,I can't remember now. Okay, erm, if you break a number down into its prime factors, then you can look at the prime factors and see whether other numbers would go into it, so if we take sort of say, three sixty, and find some of its prime factors. You won't find any sevens in there, won't be able to, does fourteen go into three sixty, you can have a look at it's a prime factors and say, well no, there isn't a seven there, erm does thirty six go into three sixty one, we're looking for something that threes and twos, appropriate number, three times three, or two times two times three times three would be thirty six, so you have at look how many twos are there in three sixty. Oh, yeah, we can get two out, and we can get two lots of three out as well, so it would go in, and it's pretty obvious it would go in cos it, it's by ten Mm. but, erm, some of the others are not so obvious,would divide in. Erm, now circular measure, did you actually measure a few round things and find pi? Oh, I did, yeah, with you I did, yeah. Mm. Yeah. And you remember actually measuring it, and you know what Yeah. pi means, hopefully, it means something to you now . Yeah, it measures the diameter, divided by the circumference. Which is Circumference divided by Right which is bigger, circumference or diameter? Circumference. Right, and what is pi, roughly to the nearest whole number ? Er, about three. About three Yes. so it's got to be the long one, all the way round divided by how far across it is. Er things like that help if you're not sure, you're thinking oh no, especially in an exam Mm. well was it the diameter divided by the circumference or was it the other way round, and you right them on paper and C over D, D over C, doesn't look any different, and you get locked into the problem and you just back off a bit and think of something real, like when you measured it all the way round, that's about three times across and it's got to be that way round, the all the way round, over how far across. Relationships, similar figures, now we we looked at that, and we looked at scale, erm, and I think last time we were looking at things like though, not too long ago we were looking at price of council paper and this sort of stuff, which one shall we buy? Shall we buy that or buy that one Yeah. erm, are you happy with that? Erm, Shall we have a look at it again ? we probably want to about work again . Right we'll have a look at that again, because once you've got it it's pretty straightforward and you can do it fairly quickly and you can do it very confidently Mhm. and if you haven't got it you could be there all day on the exam, urgh urgh, and also you're thinking I'll put it this way up, that one over that Mm. okay, so we'll have a look at that and, obtaining money, well it's easy, you just say I'm the Government, give me your money, Mm. have a poll tax, and let's have fifty per cent V A T, why, make it a hundred per cent and then it's easy for people to calculate. Ha, yeah. If you go and buy a a T V for a hundred and fifty pounds they'd say thank you, a hundred and fifty pounds, plus VAT at a hundred per cent is another hundred and fifty to go to the government Mm. So, yeah. Now what about doing percentages? Like VAT an , are you okay on that ? Yeah, yeah, I'm okay . Good, good, because that that comes up all the time. Geometry. Lines angles and intersections, you were good at that, you were using your compass and doing things okay, and geometry of the circle, I, as I say tend tend to leave that with all the I think I'm alright on actually . that entails, there's thirteen or so circle , transformations comes up quite a bit Mm. and solids and nets, they tend to turn up, right, and what about sets? That's Yeah. statistics and probability. I think I'm alright, because we have covered that all haven't we? With special probabilities, we've covered that Yeah. well. So you can, what what I'm thinking of now is not so much, I've been thinking of stuff that you have done, and that if you sort of spend a little bit of, not much time, maybe ten minutes on each topic, just having a little look at it and finding a problem, this is the sort of problem I was doing a month or two ago, can I do this one? Can I remember how to get started in the main thing? Usually Yeah. if you get started you can, you palm, the pattern comes back and you follow it through and you get the answer, erm, need to do it every, maybe sort of about once a month or so, for each topic, don't let a topic go for about a month without you looking at it for ten minutes or so, and it will be surprising how that little bit of effort keeps it in your mind, so when you come to the exam you don't sit down there and go, oh, it's two months ago, I was doing everyone right, wonderful Mm. now I just, can't think, can't remember Mm. so it's to keep it in your mind, erm. We you Yeah. did quite a few graphs last time, and you're good on algebra, manipulating things, you're good on trig, vectors and matrices, how do you feel about those? Er,what's matrices ? Vector, oh dear. Erm, you're doing paper three and you do paper three, you do matrices, might even do determinants, it's not that clear about somewhere before, of course you know that. Erm, so scale, proportion, those are the few, few things brought in together, we'll st , we'll start off with just weight, now we'll find sort of weights of things, and then we'll make it more and more difficult Mm. of less easy. Mhm. Less easy as it goes along, so we've got, start by saying loaf of, what do you want to buy at the moment? Er. Sold by weight. Bar of chocolate. Bar of chocolate. Okay. Bar of chocolate, and what sort of size do they come in, sort of hundred gram Yeah. things. Well, right, erm so a three bars of chocolate, there's one in the hundred grams,will cost you twenty eight pence. So, one. A hundred grams, for one bar, costs you twenty eight pence, right, and then another one that's two hundred grams and it'll cost you fifty pence. You know what this is going to be Yeah. this is going to be easy he thinks, so you've made your mind up before you go to the shop, but unfortunately when you get there there's a, they've got these special hundred gram bars in because they, they haven't got a hundred, there's a big sticker on them saying ten per cent more chocolate, extra bit free, extra ten per cent free, on the smaller bars, so which ones do you buy? How much does, that one extra ten per cent? This, yeah, the one hundred gram ones have an extra ten per cent added on now. Okay. Think as an exercise, work out how each of the prices of each one, and you work out which which way round you're going to do it, and then talk to me about it as you're doing it. Mm. First of all put, get that into grams, that's, that's a hundred and ten grams . Right. So the first bar, one ten grams cost twenty eight P Right. and the second one, the second bar's fifty P. So I wanna get that. So just write the second one out again, the second one you get. It's two hundred grams. It's fifty P. So two hundred grams, fifty P, about erm a hundred and ten for twenty eight, which ones easier to work with? The for fifty. Mm. So now you find out how much for one gram. Right. So good rule is work out the easy one first, now they're going to be about the same , erm, otherwise they wouldn't be asking Mm. you, it'd be obvious. Erm, so if you, if you do the easy one, and let's say it comes out to ten pence per gram, and you do the difficult one and it comes to a hundred and three pence per gram, right, or point nought one pence per gram Mm. what's, what would that indicate to you? Er, E, no point in whatever is a lot cheaper. Would it? The first one, nought. I mean, look, okay, look at these two bars of chocolate that you've got, there re , looking at it they're going to be a about the same price, you're not going to find one ten times as dear as the other, are you? Mm. So if one came out at ten pence per Think your first one's probably got wrong, Oh, right, one of them's wrong. Right, you, you think proba , this doesn't sort of seem right to me, and this is sort of developing your common sense approach to maths, which always goes on top of the actual maths, you've done the maths, yeah, you have a little look and it won't, does that make sense? No, whoops, I might have put one on top of the other when it should have been the other way round, so always have this check, er does the answer look, I mean, no, you can't always tell, but sometimes you can, sometimes you can think well those two are about the same price per gram, aren't they? Mm. Okay? So, work out those Mm. and, say, explain the logic of it, why you're doing it the way you're doing it. Well, if you, you want to find out how much per gram, will each bar so how much the twenty eight P, how much, yeah, how many grams, no, we know how many grams were there. How many pennies per gram? How many pennies per gram? Good. This is, this is the part where a lot of people get stuck. You can work it out, how many pennies per gram, or you can work it out, how many grams per penny, and it doesn't matter which way round you do it, as long as you know what the answer means, but which way do you prefer? Mm. Er, how many pennies per gr How many pennies per gram, I would prefer that too, so just sort of choose one way and stick to it, I always do it that way, and then you're not confusing yourself doing it different ways. So how many pence would you pay for a gram on that first bar? A hundred and ten divided by twenty eight. Alright, let's look at that, let me just have a little look down here Okay. a hundred and ten divided by twenty eight, you've got this is pence per gram, a hundred and ten grams divided by twenty eight pence, the answer to this is grams per penny, Mm. it was a hundred and ten, wasn't it? Hopefully, Yeah. we've got a hundred grams divided by twenty eight pennies, the answer is whatever it comes to grams per divided by pennies, grams per penny, so that's a good check that you've got it the right way up, before you go and calculate it you just have a little look, what have I got here? I've got grams per penny. You got, and you can write it like that when you write it down, a hundred and ten grams divided by twenty eight P equals whatever the number is grams per penny. So that's a easy way to make sure that you, because that was the first thing you went for now, in the exam you might well put that down and think, oh, hang on, doesn't look right, perhaps it's the other way up Mm. and then start losing confidence, wasting time, if you've got some check, like that, right, okay, so if you like to work that one out, you shouldn't have any problem with the, the second bar, if you can do the first one. Three point nine. Three point nine two. Three point nine grams per penny. That's a leave the three point nine two, because they might be, they may be close, they may not. Okay? The other one's a hundred divided by fifty. Mhm. Four. Right, so there's not much, this looks as if these answers could both be correct because Mm. they're about the same, so when the hundred gram bar has got the extra ten per cent it's it's just just makes it the better bargain, er, they're not losing much on that cos they save on the wrapping, so it probably costs them the same Mm. they do it that way. Now what happens if it gets a bit more complicated, and all it, another way another way of checking this, erm, what would happen To buy. what would happen if you, let's have a look at G, depends on, what would happen if you were still paying fifty pence, but they gave you four hundred, four hundred grams of chocolate, well you get eight grams per penny, this is another test that you got it the right way up, if it were still only two hundred grams, but you payed more money for it, let's say they charged you a pound, I think you'd get less grams per penny. So good ways of checking that you got it right, and then you can go on comfortably with, let's have a look at erm this time you're buying a block of gold, er As you do, yeah. which reminds me, yeah, the last block I got I'll have to take it back, it was the wrong colour, we've got some silver got some, got Yeah, I hate it when that happens, yeah. some silver gold. Ah, it's terrible, innit? Did you have your receipt? No. Oh. That's awful, that is . I went to the, I went to the gold shop when they were shut actually,w to get it in the first place Mm. that's why they wouldn't give me my me give me the money back Ah, of course, yeah. So here's one lump of gold, okay, and that's erm how big shall we make it? That big. A metre? Going to need a truck to carry this home. Yeah, you never have any negatives, you. Mm. Negative metre. Negative metres, okay. So it's a a cube one Okay. metre in all directions, Mm. and they're selling them off, gold, gold prices have dropped, you can get a metre, a cubic metre of gold for, say, a million pounds? Yeah. Twenty P and I'll pay it off. For a million pounds, one million. Now there's somebody else next door selling off,se se there is a surplus Can go next door to us. is a surplus of goods, about a ton in good wool, there's a surplus of gold at the moment of course, Ah of course. all selling them off like their payin paying you to take it away. Yeah. A million pounds, I'd call that paying him. Now this bloke, this bloke unfortunately measures it in centimetres, he would, wouldn't he, it could have been worse, he could Yeah, oh yeah. have measured it in inches or something Mm. erm, and erm he sells smaller bits, but they are cheaper, obviously, and his are eighty centimetre cube of gold, okay? And he says, sells his off at a quarter of a million, per cube. Mm. Which one's cheaper, which one would you go for? How do you work it out? I'd go for, I'd go for him, cos I don't like this centimetre part. Okay. So for one metre cubed, You'd this start a new page and do all your of a page. One metre cubed, costs one million pounds, there it is, eighty centimetres,I'm starting one to get, change numbers, such like that to metres, or at centimetres. Good so that's the first thing you've got to do, get these into the same sort of units this is a sort of variation where we had grams and kilograms and things. Erm, thinking ahead, I'd probably turn that to metres. Okay. Three point eight. Right. It's one metre cubed, it's one point eight, erm, er, but, don't know actually, I'd rather have it in centimetres. Hmm, so would I. Yeah. Any day. Two re , why why would you rather have it in centimetres? Erm, then I can, well because dividing point eight by, that'll make it a strange figure Right. So if you can avoid the decimals and avoid the fractions and . Good afternoon. The purpose of this afternoon's session is basically we're we're sort of looking at it from two pronged attacked. It's from the point of view of the risk management for the council's insurance, because our new policy we are virtually self-insuring. We have a ten thousand pound excess, so we're we're looking at er trying to minimize those risks. But also more importantly we're looking at it from er an employee health and safety point of view because we feel it's just as important to have our employees aware that their Yes. Can you just put it on there for me? Thanks very much. the environment in the workplace or AIDS awareness or any of those kind of health and safety issues. It's a very very informal session and will welcome any comments that Thanks. you have erm and he will also impart as much of his knowledge as he can in the two hours to you. So please listen and enjoy. And I shall even join in on this one. Thank you very much. Thank you for that er introduction Catherine. About the what's that, the about the umpteenth time. Er as you say now you're going to . going to ha have a listen to what it's all about. So hopefully Yes. er She she keeps saying it's terribly interesting, I hope she doesn't deny that at the end of the two hours . . Good afternoon. Erm what I'd like to er start off with is to emphasize why you're here and erm the fact that I'm not going to patronize you as a driver. You're all competent sensible drivers I'm sure, and erm no doubt that you feel quite happy with the manner in which you perform your functions on the road. But what I'd like you to do is to go with me during the next couple of hours, have an open mind and erm if I say something which is in an in any way provocative, question me if you want to, cos that's what we're here for, to communicate. Anything you want to argue with er and discuss, please do. Not just the content of erm the two hours but anything else which you feel is pertinent to you as a group or indeed you as an individual. If you want an answer, please ask. I shall be able to give to you. If I if I don't know the answer I'll find out in the interim period and let you know at the end of the session. But hopefully I shall know the answer. The erm the main constituents of the afternoon revolve around the awareness of erm you on the road and what you individually can do about other road users. How do you individually view other road users? Idiots.. Who Yes Lyndsey? Idiots? Yeah. I often think Great. Yes. they'll always do the un unpredictable. In fact some of the them are screaming idiots aren't they? Mhm. You know they're they're not just basic idiots but they really do something erm which can be quite fraught, and er there's no doubt everyone of you have been in a situation created by another road user. Not of course created by any one of you. . No? Or w w shall we say that may be said with a bit of a tongue in cheek? Do you think that you are you can be sort of erm put behind the eight ball? You know you you m you might be able be a little bit blameworthy in some instances? Yes? Mm. Yes. Yeah, I think that's true isn't it? And I think what we've got to think about is what our general attitude is to ourselves and to our other road users that are around us. How do you er how do you therefore generate the knowledge before you start getting the attitude? Because the attitude always comes in when you start getting more experienced don't you? I mean you d you don't really have an attitude problem when you first start to drive do you? Other than apprehension and fear. But erm generally you start getting the attitude problem when you think, Oh I don't need all this old rubbish the instructor taught me do I? Cos I'm now a competent driver cos I've passed my test. Haven't we? Or do we? When did you last look at a book about driving? Come on. Come on when did you last look at a book about driving? Anybody read one recently? No. Only on France. . When did you last look at the Highway Code? About five years ago. You only passed your test five years ago, ten years ago. Erm now driving is probably the most dangerous thing you do, unless you bunjy jump or abseil or do other daft Well they're maybe not daft things to people who do them, but certainly they're potentially dangerous. But erm if you do those sort of things somebody teaches you. And if you're a er golfer er you might go to the professional and say you know I'm miss I'm hooking, you know, can you show me how I can't do this? Or if you're a bridge player you might go and ask advice or read books but what do you do about your driving? Not a lot. When did you last read the Highway Code? A long time ago. Do you remember that one? Yes. Mm. Do you? You do? Six P that cost. . Erm that's a long time that one came out. That one seventy five P, fifty P, sixty P, and er last but not least that one. Have you seen that one? Mm. Mm. . No says Sue. Good God!have a look at it? are pretty ancient. No I'm not. Thank you. Ninety nine pence. It's getting it's getting it up a bit isn't it? Yeah. Right. Right Right. Bit tight. Bit tight. So it's er just out this one, or it came out the end of er last year, December, January time. And er it's a good ninety nine P's worth. Now as I say to every one of you er on these courses, do when you go through W H Smith pick one up and have a look at it. Now you won't be able to read it whilst you're in there and save ninety nine P, . but it's not really too much to ask is it? To a quid. Eh? You can even put the penny in the poor box at the same time. But it's it's really a good quid's worth of l of er knowledge. And I don't think you really know it do you? Do you? . Some Pardon? Yeah a fair bit of it. Oh right , Aha. right, yeah. Some of it. He'll pick on you now. . A volunteer's better than any than a pressed man isn't it ? stopping distances . Yeah. Well. I'll t stopping distances. . I your windscreen . I'll tell you what we're going to do then. Er only a bit of fun this really, it's not a It it can be a serious exercise but it's not meant to put you under any pressure. But I'm going to give you a little piece of paper and on the piece of paper it's got ten questions. And all I want you to do is ring the answers. Li like a Ballard Test where you just put the little ring round the A B or C or D. And er then at the end of it we'll talk it through. Now it's not really for my information. It doesn't really worry me whether you you know it or not. I'll be very impressed if one of you gets a hundred percent. But I want you to realize whether you know it or not. So when you go that door you'll have a little bit more knowledge than when you came in that door. And it's not only revolving around this of course, it's about the other things that we're going to stimulate your interest with as we go through the afternoon. So would you all volunteer to er have a go at that with me then ? . And er all I want you to do is just ring the answers. Only takes about five minutes. We'll quickly go through erm those, again that'll take another five minutes or so, and er I'll be surprised if you don't find it quite interesting. Okay. Have you all got a pen? No. Cor! He told you to bring a pen John. . . I'll find you one. Thank you. Mm. . Oh okay. Two there. . You want one as well? . Sorry. Beg your pardon. . There you are Lyndsey. Thank you. Okay. About five minutes then. Okay. . Well I think we're all more or less there by now. Erm what I'll ask Sophie to do if she's still going on with it, she'll be a little bit late, just put a couple of plugs in your ears while I give the answer out. Cos you've got a very honest face. . Thank you. So j just you just carry on with it. As I say the main idea is that when we get the answers to these er you you know regardless of what you're actually telling me you know whether you them right or not. You can mark your own papers. So er you can cheat if you like, it won't make any difference. You'll notice that they're geared to certain things on the on the question paper,th the the constituents really of what we're going to talk about this afternoon, which will revolve mainly around thinking about things that you're doing, I E good observation and concentration, those two going hand in hand, always organizing yourself in relation to a good separation distance, so you can equate what safety means to you. Time equals safety. You can think about a disciplined approach to problems, whatever it is, whether it's a roundabout or wh however you name a particular hazard. In other words a good mirror signal manoeuvre routine, however you apply it but in a particular order, which gives a discipline, so that you're keeping yourselves out of the problems that other people may give you if you allow them to. So that's what how this is geared. So having said that if you'd like to get ready I'll give you the answer to all the questions. And erm if you ringed it just tick the answer as appropriate. Hopefully they're are the same as the ring, if not tick the other one. Question one is A. Question two is D,question three is A,four C,five B. Question six erm A should be Lane markings and divisions , that's the white, B for Green exit,entry slip roads , Red C for the hard shoulder and D the amber central reserve. Number seven. You should have ringed the following. A, B and D. I'll repeat that one. Ring the following, A, B and D. Question eight D. Question nine A. And question ten, you should have the word Preventable and words to the effect Should not have been in that position and not have assumed that the other driver was going to do what he eventually did do. Words to that effect. . Lyndsey got it right obviously. Great guffaws at the back there. Right, are there any points then that you want to raise on that? Or do you want to sit there and ruminate a bit while while you have a look see what you've got? . Are there any queries on e any of the particular questions? . Mm. Any you find ambiguous or er doubtful? How about the roundabout question's very interesting. Yes. Erm erm a lot of people don't seem to know the rules at roundabouts and you cannot You're right, they don't. assume anything at a roundabout No. No. and you have to be so careful now erm and y you get in the the l the larger roundabouts and more and more lanes. And I d I don't think a lot of people actually know the rules when they get into a roundabout and . No. Let's go through them then shall we? Yeah. Yeah, let's just run through what we feel are appropriate. Er quite right, people don't know, and if they do know they don't care some of them. Er they think it's old old hat to give signals. . Because they know what they're doing. Mm. Why should they bother about what other people want to do? And by vir If they get through as quickly as possible they don't need signals anyway. Cos peop Mm. people are not really gonna benefit, they're going so quick. The the main thing you've got to think about with roundabouts is that Where does it where does it all start? Does it start on the roundabout? Or does it start on the approach side of the roundabout? Where c . Y Sure. Where can you gain the information on the approach side if you can't see the roundabout? . The road markings. Road markings. And the? . sign. How often do people though erm glean that information? Do they take it in? Do they inwardly digest it? Do they observe and concentrate? If the roundabout suggests that the road you're on is a fairly wide road and the road you're exiting on is a fairly narrow road it will normally indicate you're going from probably a duel carriageway, which you know you're on if you're already on it, but the road you're entering might not be. So therefore your position And remember that the cardinal thing with all driving is think correct position, think correct speed, think correct gear. Position, speed, gear. So all the time you're thinking that. So the first thing you're always gonna think about is position. So as you come up to a roundabout, you're thinking of the exit or exits. It might be straightforward like that one. It might be an awkward one. Some of them have got arms going off all over the place. So if you're if it's a strange area to you it's up to you to organize yourself. Don't try and do it at too fast a speed. Give yourself time. Because if you don't give yourself time nobody else will. If you go rushing in and you're in a thirty and you're doing forty five they'll all rush in with you. And you're past the sign you're into the roundabout and you're not quite sure what you do so what do you do? Take a chance? Or do you keep going round until you've found the the right exit that you want ? And that's not so daft as it seems you know. If you get into a roundabout and you m and you make a mistake, what's the best thing to do? Take a late manoeuvre and dive in? Or go round and another look at it? Go round, have another look at it. Don't be ever be frightened to do that. Never make a rash move in conflicting traffic situations because you'll find yourself Er they might gesticulate at you, they might blow their horn at you, they might say some very rude words that you've never heard before. Or you could have accident or an incident. So always give yourself time. So as you come up on the approach side, think position. Now if we're going to exit on that side, where's the best position that you would normally be in? Position one or position two? Two. Two. One. Anybody Who said one? Okay? So you're going to follow through in position one, and erm if the situation allows it and there's not much traffic on the roundabout and you can see that the exit side is the same width as the entry side, is there anything wrong in following round in that position? If you've got an exit like that? As opposed to following round like that? Is there anything wrong in it? . . No. . that the third exit you should be in that position. The preferable position, I've got to say is the position two, unless the circumstances allow you to be in position one. Say for example er you come up and you might see that erm there is a parked vehicle there. There might be a lot of traffic sort of nosing out there or there might be a congestion there for some reason. If you think the position there is better well of course you can take that position. The Highway Code Mm. suggests that you take the easiest and safest route through the roundabout. But what you've got to be very careful about is that if you go into a roundabout in that position and you get somebody in that position who is also going the same way and there's a pinch point there, that's the danger. Who has right of way at that point? Who has right of way on a roundabout? So . You see we've got here a divergence of opinion immediately haven't we? Now imagine then that we're all going round a roundabout. Are we all of the same opinion? We're not are we? Cos So therefore if there's any element of doubt keep yourself into position two. There are circumstances where you would adopt position one. If it's safe to go through in that position and then you can see that the exit side is clear, okay, there's nothing wrong with that. But the the erm query that's put down on that little paper there suggested that there was a problem, and a person who was coming in with you erm followed right the way round. And you often see them do that don't you? Yeah, sure. You often see them do that. So be aware of the possibility of anybody cutting across the lane that you're already in. And the only way of making sure they don't unless it's completely clear is to be in a a safe positive lane on your way through the roundabout. You might get erm Yeah I'll be with you in a sec. You might other roundabouts where they've got satellite roundabouts. Er and and those they're even more critical. They work very very well as long as you take your time and you're always in the right position, and anticipate who's gonna come through. Yes? er position two is always for tur for taking the first turning off the No. No. It's er It it is for that. Yes. You're right, I mean you would obviously be in that position if you were going to turn left, but if you're If you're going to go down there by all means, but it's safer if y Say you're you're n car number two behind car number one in position two and he's inc signalling left. Well alright he's gonna turn left, er just pause let him clear and then follow the way t follow the way through. So you've got to have a little bit of patience in relation to what other road users may do. He may even change his mind mightn't he? They often do don't they? They're signalling Oh I don't want to go that way I want the next one. So if y if you're manoeuvring round him and he suddenly changes his mind we're compounding what he is actually doing, by getting assuming that he's gonna do the right thing. So if you work on the presumption then that that position is the preferable one, bearing in mind that you know what you're doing but you don't know what other people are doing. Any other points on that? Can you just talk about indicators on roundabouts? Cos that frustrates me, when I'm waiting to go onto a roundabout and I don't know where the other c I can't really read where the other cars are going . No. Because very very often people when They may not be sure themselves might they? You see you can't read into their minds. They might be total strangers and they think Where? Oh there's the there's the one I want to go. They've probably not read the sign, or they might not give an indicator at all. So al don't ever take anything for granted. Even when we're talking about the person who has right of way on a roundabout. Now who normally has right of way on a roundabout? . So you immediately all said the person on the right. You were all quite comfortable with that. Have you ever gone onto a roundabout being the person on the right, and somebody's come out straight in front of you? Yes? So it doesn't always work does it? See we kn we know but does everybody else know? You're on a motorway. You're on the main part of the carriageway,and coming in on the left there is this traffic coming down a slip road to join you. Who has right of way? People on the motorway. People on the motorway. Now we feel that that's correct. Have you ever been on a motorway when somebody has pushed their way in front of you and caused you inconvenience, made you brake? I'm sure you have. We all have haven't we? So you cannot take it for granted. You can work on a presumption, a prebonderance of probabilities or whatever, but I mean what you cannot do is take it that it's absolutely fact that that is going to happen. So always work out in your mind that nobody has right of way in those circumstances. If you keep that in your mind you won't get yourself drawn in on a f false premise that you must be okay. Very often you will be. But you don't always judge purely on that. You look at the vehicle, you look at the driver, you look at the attitude of the vehicle. What's its speed? What's its position? That is, if you're concentrating and observing, which is one of the cardinal things I've already mentioned. Erm Cathy's gone home. Er she won't be coming back this afternoon. Oh right. Okay? Okay. Thank you very much indeed. So we've got to the situation then where erm we are making sure that nobody is gonna put us in a position whereby they can cause us problems. And if you work on that presumption, and I'm not suggesting you creep around frightened of your own shadow going at a slow speed, just wor working with deliberation and making sure you move through the situation competently, but don't take anything for granted. Now any other points on the er on the paper? Stan, just st still on the question of roundabouts and the vexed question of mini-roundabouts, you know these dots in the middle of the the the of junctions. Yes. Erm and you see people frequently charging across the middle or even to the right-hand side of them because they don't believe that you know that that they have to you know er be observed and gone round and erm whatever. Erm they're the they're there for a purpose and their size is there for a purpose in terms of er of the constrictions of the other road er sizing or whatever, and obviously huge vehicles who just can't possibly manoeuvre without going over. I mean one assumes that's why the Highway Authority put them there at that size. What's the actual legal position about incursion onto that centre spot? Mm. Well you'll normally find Ian that those erm roundabouts are put at points where there is there's a known problem in relation to access from from minor Yeah. roads onto major roads, and it's a cheap and easy way for local authorities Mm. to segregate traffic . And also of course i you can't always f em put in a big roundabout because there might be buildings there, there might be erm erm services there that they can't remove etcetera. So it's a temporary measure in many ways. They work quite effectively. But like everything else they'll only work with the cooperations of of the of the er motoring public. So always treat those in exactly the same way as you would a normal roundabout, so that you're coming up and always assuming that people should give way etcetera in the manner in which they should unless the roundabout directs otherwise. And erm should you go round them in such a way that erm is making it more difficult for you and more difficult for other people? The answer is no. Erm as you say Ian large vehicles, they can't possibly go round them. Erm I do a lot of er large goods vehicle training and if you get erm with a very large vehicle thirty eight tonnes, you cannot, even with an artic which has got a very good dogleg to get round, you cannot do it. And therefore you've got to take the shortest route across. And these are just little blips in the road, you know. I'm not talking about those which are built round. But erm they are built in a such a way that they should cater for the largest vehicle that is likely to use that road. So use the normal rules on the approach side for those, I E roundabout rules, but going back onto the signals again, on roundabouts like that don't give unnecessary signals. Erm the point which I don't think I a quite adequately covered, erm Alan mentioned it did you not, in relation to where you give a signal, erm th the h new Highway Code makes a slight variation in relation to where you should give the signal when you're exiting on the roundabout. A lot of people are quite clear when they know they're gonna turn left like that. Erm a lot of people aren't so clear when they're going straight ahead. They very often will signal right then signal left. And they're not gonna do that at all, they're going straight ahead. So don't give a signal at all. You're just going straight through. If you give a signal left people'll think you're going there. If you give signal right they'll think you're going there. But when you're going to that exit there if you get to that position and you haven't give a sig given a signal, that's the point, just after the junction there at the point of the junction, to give a left-hand indicator signal, mainly for people waiting there. This is the point you meant Alan wasn't it? Yes. You're waiting and you're thinking Er and this is particularly the case with a large goods vehicle, you'll be sitting waiting to go and there's a lovely gap and you think Can I? And Yes I No I can't. Cos he's given a signal too late, and by the time you start to move there's another vehicle coming round the corner. And of course that's what encourages some of the chaps in the large goods vehicles to use their weight er to push their way through. A little bit intimidating isn't it? But you can understand It's not excusable really but you can understand their impatience when people c consistently don't tell them what they're going to do. So indicate at that point that you're gonna exit there. If you're going all the way round, indicate right. The only time you're gonna indicate right is that position there, when you're going there. Be careful about those sort of junctions. They're not always straight forward. So if you're gonna turn left don't give a signal there, you're gonna turn left in there. You must reserve that signal till you get to that point there. Don't give too many signals on a small roundabout. If you give too many, by the time you go click click, you know they say What was that? It's too late. They don't know what you intend to do and what you've actually done. You must give other drivers, and riders, time to absorb the information that you're giving them. Your signal is the only voice you've got, apart from the horn, is the only voice you've got at telling them what you intend to do. So you must give people time. And if you if they can't absorb the information what's the point in giving the signal in the first place? Now we'll talk a bit more about signals because presently we're going to have a look at a a little bit of video which is erm showing commentary. Er I don't know whether you've ever er done commentary driving, or heard commentary driving have you? And er the idea is to highlight the things that you feel are pertinent to you and what you're going to do about them. But we'll be coming onto that in about five minutes. Now any other points about any of the other questions? Stan, can I just turn round the other way what you were talking about there? You said about the the driver giving the left-hand indication as he's about to leave the roundabout. If you're in the situation where you're waiting to come onto the roundabout, you see somebody who's indicated left, you assume they're gonna turn off so you pull onto the roundabout and they're not , . . who's in the wrong? You both are. Yeah. If y i er when you see that You remember I said don't assume anything? You've been sitting in a side road waiting to come out, and you see a vehicle coming along and it's got its left-hand indicator on and you think Oh lovely! I've been waiting here for ages. It's probably only a you know a matter of seconds but it seems a long time. You start to move and he comes he gives you a horn warning swerves around and carries on up the road. Who's in the wrong? You. You both are. He for i indicating he's gonna turn left when he's not, you for assuming he's going to turn left when he isn't. So you cannot assume anything. You've got to make sure absolutely certain that that vehicles's gonna turn. Wait till you see him start to slow down. See the posture of the vehicle er the man inside the vehicle. Have a look in the vehicle. Don't just look at the vehicle, look at the things attendant to the vehicle. The wheels. How he's got his hands on the wheel. If you're coming along and you see a stationary vehicle, what's the driver doing? Is he looking over his or her shoulder? Or are they fiddling down? Are they likely to open the door? There are so many little bits and pieces that you can accommodate in you own mind if you want to. You can all do it. We know you can. You can all concentrate. Can you concentrate a hundred percent all the time? Anybody here think they can? I'd like to come and shake your hand if you Because there ain't no such animal. You cannot do it. What you've got to do is reserve your concentration for those particular times when it's a particular need. And the other times your concentration will drop a little bit. So you've got to learn how to cultivate your ability to summon up the levels that you need when they're particularly needful. Anything else on roundabouts? Cos we've spent an awful lot of time on it . I don't mind because if you've got the questions we'll we'll certainly spend the time. Good. Any other points that erm you want to raise on any of the others then? I was a little bit surprised at the answer to nine. somewhere that you didn't need your headlights if there was street lighting . Well you see it says a forty mile an hour limit that one. Erm so if it's thirty it doesn't appertain, but erm if It does if you're at or near a road junction, even in a thirty. But ha are they enforced now? Ha They're not are they? So therefore people, like yourselves, are understandably quite surprised Oh I didn't realize that. What is the distance? I mean if you'd have been reported last week for it you would think Yeah I'm damn sure that's right, you know. What is the distance away from a from a corner? I mean is there stipulated distance ? Yes there is. Yes. What is that distance? Ten metres. Cos I well I frequently come across insists on parking his car less than that distance Yeah. Well yes it is an offence. But the thing is this. Erm the police will only apply their resources to a matter which they feel is appropriate to the need of that particular problem . . And er the need of this particular problem is unless there's an area whereby there is an accident risk they won't bother with it. They can't deal with everything can they? So therefore erm you've got to be aware of these things and consider the safety implications as we all do. We've actually got a situation outside where I live where a thirty mile an hour speed limit is erm finishes just in front of some of the houses and of course we've got no access to their the gardens so we just park on the road. So we're parking illegally but the police actually have almo they've said they will turn a blind eye to it if providing that we all do it sensibly and without and face like in the line of the traffic. Yes. Yes, that's right . And in fact it's less of a hazard at night than Mm. it is in the day. Yeah probably is. So it's a question of using your common sense. And er you look at the needs of particular area and erm apply er th the rule of thumb to a certain extent. Er I mentioned in the earlier session today about erm a situation that appertained when I was in the police at Maidstone. And erm the majority of people who do this sort of work are ex-police officers and erm that's why w you know we have the training and we can re recall instances of bad driving, that's why we're q quite vehement in our pursuit of safety procedures. Cos you see the results unfortunately of the people who don't follow them. But one of the problems in the Maidstone area was parking on the footpath. Now you might think to yourself Well that's not a big problem. But this particular road was an A t an A road and it was round a very sharp bend up a l a gradient and in a thirty limit. People used to consistently park because they hadn't got garages. But round the corner there are side roads. But they would insist on parking on the footpath. So I said to my blokes on several occasions, and they used to think I was a proper pain in the derriere I expect, Go up sort them out, don't necessarily report them, advise them if necessary, if they consistently do it you'll have to use a fixed penalty ticket. It wasn't so much the fact that of parking on the footpath it was the consequences of parking on the footpath. I E you get a blind person come along. Erm you get a a woman with a pram. Now it's a fast road, what have got to do? Knock the bloke up and say Can you come and move your car? Out in the road round the round. One-way street and they come littering round there. Much . faster than thirty. Sorry? Is that Crescent? Sorry? Is that Crescent? Yes, that's right. You know it do you? Yeah. They still go through there at . I know. Well funnily enough I went down there last week, and I must admit I I came round the corner and there was one particular vehicle still does it. And it's a Capri. And it's always parked on the footpath. And there was a traffic warden standing there doing a traffic er doing a fixed penalty ticket. And I must admit I th I I sort of applauded him. Not literally. I thought Thank goodness for that. Now that vehicles's not there any more. But for weeks you know it was parked there all day and very often at nighttime. Now he appears to have got the message. I don't want to see people nicked but that was a danger. And erm you know that's sort of a d a difference to yours, Mm. where they f they perceive the problem or they don't. Sorry. Yeah. Can I just ask you, this restrictions is it for forty mile an hour and above, or is it just in the forty mile an hour ? No, and above. Yeah, yeah. Any other points? Quite happy about the two-second rule then? We're gonna deal with that a little bit more in a minute. No queries on that? Erm lane markings and divisions. I saw a few sort of puzzled looks when Yeah. we went on to er the red and amber. You probably got some of the others, but it's the red and amber that causes the problems isn't it? You think Is it is the red on the right or is it on the left? Now you might think to yourself Well what the devil difference does it make, whether we know whether it red or amber? Do you think it makes a difference? What do you reckon Lyndsey? Probably subconsciously. It's one of those things that you always take for granted till it's obviously taken away from you. Right. If they were all the same colour you'd think But because you've become so used to seeing the green and ambers and the reds Mm. So wh you notice them. When could it be of particular use to you do you think? . in fog. Yeah. Er in any adverse weather conditions, particularly fog, where you're travelling along and you suddenly see erm a red stud on your right-hand side. Where would you be? Hard shoulder. Going down a slip-road. Hard shoulder. Yes. Somebody said this morning On the wrong side of the carriageway,which you probably . you probably would be. but you don't suddenly turn round and go the other way do you? . But fog can come down very quickly. You know you're in a position where everything's hunkydory and all of a sudden you're in a a bank of fog. And you do very quickly lose y lose track of where you are. So it can be very very useful there. So a little knowledge can help you. This question of er lawfully cross or straddle double solid lines. Erm to pass a pedal cyclist. Now how many of you here have been in situations where you've been behind a pedal cyclist and you've been tempted, I'll not say you've done it, but you've been tempted to go past? Yes? Yeah. Qu I know, I know. You all put your han The thing is, you should never be tempted to do it. It might enter your head Oh Lord! Have I got to sit behind this chap for ages? You can overtake on a double white line. What it says is you must not cross or straddle the line. So if you can overtake with safety there's no real problem is there? But can you overtake with safety? Cos when they place these they're always in a zone of danger, double white lines. They're very rigorously enforced. And anybody here with the technical services department they would confirm that. But the main thing you've got to think about is if you start to overtake and the cyclist who may be wearing his er stereophonic Walkman, erm Beethoven's Fifth or some headbanging music going on his Is he aware of you around? Probably not. He might come round a drainhole cover just as you're about to pass him. You either stamp Lucas up his right buttock or you go over the double white lines, or you brake and somebody behind might be too close behind you. So you can't really take for granted can you that erm he may or may not do anything. How about the milk float? The old milkman going down the road reading the paper isn't he? . Er about five miles an hour. And er what have you got to do in a double white lines system? Got to follow him. Haven't you? Erm if it's a hatching it's a little different isn't it? Tha which is you know just an indication. It's not bounded by a solid line but it's just a normal hatching. It's like er a double white line with broken lines on your side. You can overtake if it's safe to do so and you can regain your nearside without danger or or inconvenience to other vehicles coming the other way. But as far as a solid line is concerned don't do it, because i it immediately if you if you o do transgress it'll mean penalty points if you're seen doing it, regardless of the consequences of it. Straightaway. It's an endorsable moving trac traffic offence. Any other things then on that, before we move onto er pastures new? All quite happy? Okay. If you'd like to just pass those along to the end of the line then we'll collect them all up. . Now you'll recall I said that we will we will try and isolate try and isolate throughout the afternoon those things which are going to be useful to you. Erm the end of the line. let's talk then about this question of observation and concentration. We're gonna have a little look at the video in a minute, but before we do that I'd like to erm draw you attention to a situation This is a real one which erm was an accident that took place. Now I'd like you to give me your opinions as to the whether is was preventable and whether it was blameworthy. And if it is blameworthy, who is to blame? So I'll I'll give you the scenario. Excuse me. Before you start on that do you mind if I turn off the flickering television screen? Well I've left that on because I can't guarantee I'm gonna get me channel zero but Could we just turn it a bit perhaps into the side? Erm Do you want me to push it round? Is it really disturbing you? It is ac I could sit in a different place. No no, that's alright. Thank you. That's great. Sorry about that. Even though she was late. . Right, here's the scenario then. So thirty mile an hour road and busy day. And er quarter to eight er quarter to nine in the morning, all the commuters are running around half asleep, wish they'd got up a bit earlier but they didn't. Here we have chap who er wants to buy a paper. Here is a paper shop. He comes along, Oh! A paper shop! Opens his door to get out his paper to get out to get the paper, little boy on bike comes along knocks him off. Didn't see the lad. Should have done he's just overtaken him. But he was selfish, all he was concerned with was going and getting his paper. The little boy. he's about eight, he falls on the ground, he's not really hurt, his legs are tangled up in his bike and he's trying to get up. Now vehicle number one and vehicle number two is following him and vehicle number three is following him. Now you can see that they're fairly close together aren't they. But in between vehicle two and vehicle one there's a reasonable distance, and the distance is in fact seventy five feet. So what's the overall stopping distance at thirty miles an hour? Seventy five foot. Seventy five feet. So he should be able to stop this chap. And he does. And he stops just there, no problems. Number three, he's not very far behind the other chap, same distance when it all happens. Any problem as far as he's concerned? . As long as he's got his thinking distance. Right. So where does he first see the problem? two brakes. his brake lights . Yeah. That's it. When he he's he's erm done his braking. Now the braking,bearing in mind It takes you half a second to react anyway, but hi his actual thinking distance is about thirty feet. And the forty five feet is needed for his braking distance giving the overall of seventy five. So when he sees that When it said about erm when she said about Alice went to Florida Yeah? and says erm we've not been talking to her it sa she's not the one to write. Yeah. But I think it, you know, the fact that she isn't wri that's nothing unusual is it? Not as far as I'm concerned. On her Christmas card I told her I was anxious to hear about her trip but there was no reply . But er when she says I'm not talking to her she means she hasn't spoke to her over the telephone Yeah. so it's erm there's nothing, you know, about that er she's quiet anyway in't she? Well if Shirley and Marguerite are off to Florida they could be there now couldn't they? they said February. Well if they're going in t if they'd two weeks in February, this was written in January they're probably there now. We might er we might get a card from her Hello wrong number on the phone? Yeah. Said the erm wind chill factor is twenty two below so that's wind chill factor, that means it's not that temperature otherwise when there's a you know the, the gale force wind or erm It's twenty two below from thirty two Mm. it's twenty two so that means that it's ten degrees ten above zero. Mm. That is very cold. Yeah. It says wish you could see the shots John has taken. He carries a portfolio with him when he goes out to work he has them blown up . He goes out to work, that means he's going round to the various houses and Yeah. and taking photographs of the erm rooms before he does all the changing I suppose? Yeah absolutely. The upholstery and the curtains and whatever It doesn't show it on this but you see there's two zeros, there's your freezing mark there right? Yeah. Yeah. That's thirty two. Yeah. Now down here, under the ten Well look what's there's another zero what's that twenty two there? Is that the bottom of the er gauge? Bottom of the scale, yeah. So they couldn't get much colder? No. No but when they say when they say i it's twenty twenty below, it's twenty below that zero there, see there's ten Oh yeah I realize that. Yes I realize that. But erm twenty, twenty two below you know it's Well I've been in eighteen below zero I know so have I. and that that So have I, it was eighteen below when we was there that time. I remember eighteen below. And I'm telling you, boy that is cold. I know . Mind you there's a difference between below zero and below freezing. Yeah. I realize that. Er n back to these snaps that erm John takes but as I said they're pictures of the rooms before he alters them, before he puts in a new decor,th the upholstery, furnishings and the erm Well he alre he already deals in curtains er curt drapes and drapes. Yeah well he probably does the soft covers and what not Yeah. you know? But er but when Marguerite says she's thinking of having a couple for her living room that can't be pictures of somebody else's room she's putting up, he must be taking snaps. Er the hunting snaps they're on about. Oh the hunting snaps. The deer. Well it didn't mention that though did it? It just said he carries a portfolio and he, you know, when he goes out to work. I imagine he's had an enlargement of the deer he killed. Yeah. I didn't realize Harry was that age. Cos I forget that he's that much older than you. Who was? Ha When are you gonna start learning to play Chinese patience? I haven't got the patience. Well you could learn. It's not a game I can play on my own. It's quite a good game actually. Next time you get the cards out we'll have, we'll try it. Either that or American gin rummy. Alright? So you say. Well it'd be a change from cribbage wouldn't it? Oh can't beat cribbage. Ah maybe not but it'd be a change. One of these afternoons when it's cold and wet we'll get the cards out and play Chinese patience. Alright? Yeah. Good. Right. Have you got enough there? I should think so,providing that 's not too loud. Right I was just reading here about about er er the funeral in Northern Ireland and the minister wouldn't let the erm flag draped coffins of two I R A go into the church with the insignia and whatever on top of the coffins there. And then there's one about the erm a protestant pastor blamed the seventeen year old death, that fellow that, that young man in the video shop that was erm shot down the father blamed the British government. He said if the, if he, he was shot dead at a Belfast video shop, he said if this was happening in England or on the streets of London the response of the government would be totally different well it has happened in London. It has happened in London, what about all the shootings and bombings? Oh er er I understand, yeah. I wonder if they can deduce what that is? Just reading here where it says that erm B and Q they're having a slanging match with Texas cutting all their prices paints tools they're trying to outdo them with the prices. They've got the whole page in the paper. They'll be throwing rocks at each down here at Fleets Bridge. Look it says here that bridging the Watford Gap. Two families discover how the divide between the north and the south is narrowing . Now Northampton is twenty one miles from Bedford now we were never classed as living in the south when we lived there. And yet No. they're saying Bedford is in the south. Bedford is definitely not in the south. Bedford is in the south midlands the same as Northampton was, and is, I should say. And it says two families discover how the divide between the north and south is narrowing . Bedford is not in the south! Bedford is in the midlands, it's the south east midlands. There is an imaginary line, or they used to call it from Birmingham to the Wash anything below that is the south. Well it's not the south is it? I mean to me they've, London is classed as the south. Bedford is more south east. It's south east midlands, it isn't the south east. It's the, it's the south, southern midlands, south midlands. It's twenty one miles from Northampton, they never cla I mean down here people think Northampton is in the north. Northampton you see and they think it's up the north. Well it is, hundred and forty three miles north of here. Yeah it's not the north is it? It's the, it's the south midlands. It used to be the south east midlands, now it's classed as the south midlands but Bedford, twenty one miles along the road there, and they call it the south. Well it certainly isn't. Well where do these people live? Well erm two families discover how the divide between north and south is narrowing and one lives at Wigan one family lives at Wigan and the other family, no er yeah the other family live at Bedford. And two families discover how the the divide between the two is narrowing. Yeah. After three years of property slump in the home counties it has never been easier to leap over the Watford Gap by moving from the north to the south . They're talking about the Watford Gap, not about Watford itself. The Watford Gap is a service station isn't it, on the M one? Yeah. Watford is erm when you used to come out on the old I know where Watford is. I shall have to read it, it's about two families, they're changing directions. There's another one here Knutsford, Stratford-upon-Avon, now Yeah. since when has Stratford on Avon been south? That again you see Northampton lays be in the middle of those two, it's twenty one miles to Bedford one side and thirty miles to Stratford on Avon the other side. And they class it as the south. Bloody ridiculous. Well it is, technically speaking, south of a If you lived in given point. well if you lived in Scotland, Stratford on Avon is south, anywhere is south isn't it, in England? I expect you'd say Stratford on Avon is south. Mind you any, I wouldn't wanna move from Stratford on Avon if I lived there to go and live further north . Stratford on Avon is a lovely place. Quite expensive to live there I'd think. Think the property's quite expensive. But it's certainly a nice place to live. Ah it would be because er you have to pay for being near the bard. Oh I don't know about that. No it's a pretty place. see they've got Tina Turner tonight. Tina Turner on the Wogan Show. Have to watch that. Kenny Everett, Lorna Luft Oh Mary Mary will be pleased. Erm Kenny Everett, Lorna Luft and Wayne Sleep. Seven o'clock. It clashes with Family Fortunes but I must remember to tape that mustn't I? Put it on the video. Which one? Wogan with Gloria Hunniford. Tina Turner As long as it doesn't clash with No Brookie. Oh no. The only thing that clashes with that is eight o'clock Alf Garnett. Who was that speaking then? The announcer. Well ha! I meant who was it that was saying that it doesn't matter? The priest. So it he said it didn't matter even if it was rape, she's still got to have the baby, that it? Yeah. It's terrible isn't it? Oh You switched it off did you? Never touched it. Oh. Oh sport winter Olympics the first two runs on the four man bobsleigh which represents one of Britain's brightest medal hopes . I think tonight though it's got to the women's figure skating championship. Joanne Conway's gone back to to take part in it. She came back home didn't she? To be with her boyfriend. Yes. Catchword tonight is on at five O five instead of four o'clock because they've got sport on all afternoon. Catchword? Catchword's on at five O five it follows Countdown Mm. on a different station of course. Yeah mustn't forget that, changed the time of that. But they haven't said too much about it in the paper. No I mean usually they show you on the T V when they're leaving don't they? But I think they, they probably play it down a bit these days. There's a picture of her here and er cheering Australians welcome the queen to Sidney with a banner proclaiming good day Betty Betty! Can you imagine anybody here doing that to the queen? Good day Betty, that just shows, doesn't it, how erm the sort of respect or disrespect, whatever you'd like to Yeah. call it, they have got for royalty because to call the queen Betty, she's smiling but I wonder if she feels like smiling. It says thousands have packed city centre to cheer her and it said the fervour surprised republicans who have criticized the visit. Yeah I suppose they will be a republic sooner or later, by the year two thousand probably. Er ooh better make a move. What do you want? Well I don't know whether I want let's see what this is in this parcel that came this morning. Right night over water music loves to dance,, ooh the Darling Buds of May is in here, that's nice isn't it? Oh what is it? Where is it? Oh this is illustrated as well. Look at the preface. Yeah, this is illustrated. Page four three three four three three oh the end of the book. Look at that properly in a minute. Free gift Do, throw away, do not eat, throw away d what's that supposed to be for then? Let's have a look. It just says throw it away do not eat it, well what's the object of it? Desiccant silica gel, throw away Yeah but what's the object of it, in, in there? Why is it in there? It don't say on the box? No. Nothing. Right, let's see what this says. Well that is, to me, absolutely stupid. Yeah. Throw away, do not eat. Yeah but what I don't know why it's in there anyway. What's the ob oh wait a minute, perhaps this is, tells you the attached carton the attached carton contains your surprise gift, a handsome acacia wood salt cellar made to a sturdy traditional design it's finished in an attractive shade that enhances the natural grain of the wood. The cellar's chunky good looks make it equally at home in your kitchen, dining room or breakfast tray. Free with your next value the matching pepper mill . Mm doesn't say what it, the object of that is in the packet there. Have to read this letter have to read this afterwards see what it says. Right Hello, and welcome to the programme. Today we'll be talking about Banbury School opting out of Local Education Authority. There was a bid by Banbury School to opt out of local control, and in a poll among the parents sixty two percent voted against the Governor's proposals to become the first school in Oxfordshire to leave County Council control. Well, there are lots of questions that this issue raises. First of all is this decision, a vote of confidence for the Local Education Authority —Chubby Spencer, is it? Well it's certainly a vote against the proposal to opt out, there's no doubt about that. This is a hybrid case in Banbury erm the opting out legislation was brought in for a specific purpose. erm Banbury School decided to or the Governors of Banbury School decided to seek opting out status on the grounds that the Local Education Authority was seeking to carry out changes to the offer presently available in Banbury for post-sixteen education. erm I believe, in fact, that the Oxfordshire County Council provides an excellent quality of education erm so that wasn't the argument. The argument was on the semantics of how post-sixteen education is presently offered in Banbury, and whereas, of course, they had every right to use the opting out legislation as a governing body, it must be said that the possibility of success under those terms erm is somewhat untried, because of course legislation was specifically geared at Local Education Authorities that do not look after their schools, and thus schools are able to opt out of a badly run, inefficient Education Authority, and we've seen that happen in many of the urban areas in the country, and indeed some schools have not opted for that. In many, in many, listen Chubby, there are only twenty seven schools around the country who have so far opted to opt out, and by the way could you define for us what does it mean to opt out, because a lot of people might be rather vague on that idea? Well if the school decides to opt out it is financed directly by the D E S. It has a governing body, which is formed from parents and interested people. In other words, you don't have the political input that you presently do in erm state schools, and of course the school itself is not answerable to the Local Education Authority in terms of policy it erm it is almost a stand-alone exercise, with the financing coming directly from D E S. That is an opted out school as against the standard state school, which is subject to the overall policies of the Local Education Authority, and indeed it is funded by the Local Education Authority through a formula, and the amount of money that is put into that formula will obviously affect the amount of money the school has to spend, so it's providing the same range of education within the National Curriculum, but it is not beholden to the Local Authority — that's the basic difference. All right. Well before we talk about those those general principles, I'd like to get back to the Banbury school opt out decision. Now, Jack Steer, you're the Labour spokesperson for education. You're the opposite number to Choppy Spencer, whose the Conservative spokesperson for education, and yet also are a parent of a child in the Banbury school. What was your stance on the decision to opt out? My stance was very simple. erm I was opposed to Banbury school opting out. On what grounds? Well, as a parent, because I believe that there is a need in Banbury to have a much better offer at sixteen. I think if we are going to go into the next century with any real chance of providing proper education and training in the sixteen to nineteen age range, we need to do the job properly, and frankly I think the offer in Banbury at the moment is not up to scratch. The logical erm conclusion from that was to look at some form of tertiary education and that is what the County Council went out to consultation on. Well do you see this vote against opting out as a basically a vote in favour of the tertiary college plans for Banbury? I think it there are several aspects to it. Firstly, I think it's a vote by the majority of parents to say that they want the school to stay local, to stay within Local Authority control. Partly, I suspect because a lot of us didn't trust the present governing body, partly because they believe, as I do, that there is a need to review and revise the present sixteen plus offer in Banbury, and partly because they could see no real benefit in opting out. In fact, I can see none at all. Choppy's comments about schools in urban areas is quite interesting, because the first one was actually in Lincolnshire, which in no terms could be regarded as an urban area, and quickly looking down the list — and there are actually about sixty throughout the country — an awful lot of them have been in rural heartlands like Oxfordshire. So the vote in Banbury was really in some ways quite surprising, but for those of us locally we were quietly confident that the parents would see the commonsense and logic of the argument and would not vote to opt out. And the fact that they have voted against with such a large majority is something Sixty two percent. Which is well don't forget, Bill, that to start with the opters out actually got four hundred signatures on a petition. Yes. They then gained another sixty two people to support them. mhm. So it really as a very large majority indeed if you accept that. Right. Well, Harvey Markovitch, you are a Governor of the school, Banbury School, are you not? I am. And your views on this vote of sixty two percent against opting out. What do you think it means? How do you interpret it? I interpret it that erm parents saw that they were being asked to do something false, and if I can just correct you on something, these weren't the Governors' proposals to seek opting out, they were the proposals of a group of parents, some of whom happen to be parent-Governors, but when the Governors themselves came to vote on whether we thought You were split evenly, weren't you? We were split evenly Seven, seven Absolutely. And so Mr. Green, I think it was Chris Green, had to he was chairing that meeting and had a double vote. He had the casting vote, as chairmen do, and he voted to say that he thought opting out would be good for Banbury School, but of course he was the chairman of the parents group that was trying to opt out, so that was not greeted very well amongst some of us, I think. So it was it was actually a group of parents that looked to opting out Yes, but many of the leading lights of that group of parents were the Governors? Some of them were Governors, that's absolutely right. Yes. But others of us who were Governors were so opposed to it that we all said we'd resign from the governing body if the school did opt out. Seven of us said that. erm I think, you see, that people were being asked to vote for the wrong thing. If the argument about opting out or not opting out was about whether our children would get a better education one way or another, then that's a proper argument at it's quite reasonable for there to be a democratic decision about it, but quite honestly that wasn't what it was all about. What it was all about was to do with politics. Firstly national politics, and secondly local politics. For instance. Well, if we look at it nationally, the Government has had as one of the planks of its policy the fact that it would quite like to reduce the power and influence and authority of Local Government, and increase the power and influence and authority of National Government, and opted out schools is one of the stands of that particular policy. Now I I'm we're not here to argue whether that's a good thing or a bad thing, erm but nonetheless parents were, if you like, an attempt was being made to con them into voting on that particular issue under the guise of whether their children's education would be better or worse, and I think many parents realized that. And so far as the local issue was concerned, of course it's the issue of tertiary education and erm this was erm a question of erm the particular Governors and parents who wanted to opt out erm doing what the Iraquis are doing with their aeroplanes and they were basically trying to fly Banbury School to a neutral country; the idea being that erm as soon as the procedure for opting out started the Local Education Authority would not be able to use any of erm Banbury School's land or premises in part of its plans for tertiary education in Banbury, so it was really an attempt to neutralize Banbury School. Now that has nothing to do about whether our children will get a better or a worse education if the school is opted out. It's an entirely different argument, which is being very thoroughly discussed locally at present and will go on being discussed, and it was erm really unfair to ask the parents to decide upon that veer a vote on opting out, and I think a lot of parents, including very many whom I spoke to, saw through that argument. Well, Bob Morgan, you're the spokesperson for education on the Liberal Democrat side. What are your views on this local and national conflict that we've seen perhaps up there in Banbury? Well I've , unlikely Choppy, I see this as a distinct vote of confidence in our system of education in the county, which I think is outstandingly good. We have an excellent reputation in Oxfordshire as an Education Authority erm and a reputation which extends around the country, so I do see it as a vote of confidence, and I am very pleased about it, but I do think that the whole exercise was somewhat premature in the light of the erm research and investigation that was going on into the tertiary college, and indeed the consulting process actually ran through at the same time as the campaign was running on whether the Banbury School should opt out, and erm regrettably I think has lost something as a result of having the two run together. The time to consider whether one wishes to opt out and whether one was opposed to a certain system is always when a decision has been made, but I'd have thought it would have been far in the interests of the people of Banbury and the children and parents of Banbury if they'd taken full advantage of the discussion on the tertiary college and had made their opinions known, and in the light of the results coming out and say a satisfactory decision had arisen that was frankly the time to get into the business of opting out. But it was very premature, and I'm very I was very sorry that they'd taken this step, but very, very pleased when I saw the result coming out, and I'm do congratulate them on their common sense there that they were prepared to put the opting out aside and were looking seriously and sensibly into the tertiary college consultations. Well I'd like to look at the national implications of this. Now, Choppy Spencer, the spokesperson for the Conservative Party on education here in the County Council, is this opting out a political stunt? I mean is it an attempt by the Government to bribe these schools to opt out by giving them more money? Well I certainly don't think it's a political stunt. It's part of an education philosophy which I must remind erm which I must remind you starts off with local financial management of schools within the Education Service erm prior to local financial management County Hall was big brother. Now school governing bodies have a degree of autonomy. Admittedly their budgets come from the County Council, but what how they spend their money erm is theirs to choose, and that is definitely erm part of this overall philosophy. Now the opting out I'd just like to correct Bob on one thing that he said. I was trying to rehearse to your listeners the philosophy behind the opting out legislation, i.e. that if an Education Authority was bad a school could opt out. And I think I made it quite clear that it was not the quality of the Education Authority that was the basis of the Banbury School's proposals, it was the County Council's decision to go ahead on a consultation for tertiary education, an entirely different animal in Oxfordshire, and I, like Bob, would agree that the erm quality of education offered in Oxfordshire is first class. Now, on the national issue of course, like all legislation there are all the side issues that pop up after the legislation has been passed, and there's no question in my mind that one of the side effects of the opting out legislation that it will make it very difficult for local authorities to reorganize. They may need to reorganize because of demography — that's the number of pupils that are in a particular area, where you've got too many schools, or it may be that they want to change the type of offer, such as some of us want to do in the City of Oxford. But whatever those proposals may be, schools now will have the opportunity of opting out, and I think it's a fair guess that if the opting out legislation had been in place when comprehensive education was imposed upon this county in 1964, you would probably have found a great number of the grammar schools would have opted out, using the legislation, and I have no doubt whatsoever that in every single one of those cases you would have had a large majority of parents in support of that. What is different in the Banbury situation erm is that fact that you are not only talking about one school and it's education because Banbury School draws not only it's own eleven to sixteen year old children, who have the option to go forward to the sixth form, but of course all the children that come from the Warriner School at Bloxham, all the children that come from Drayton School, and a certain number of the children who might come from the Roman Catholic Secondary School in Banbury, so there are a whole lot more people involved than just the actual children, and that's what made Banbury a hybrid. I believe the opting out legislation nationally is a very good idea. I fully support it, and I believe it is an option for those schools who have Local Education Authorities that are not progressing in the way in which the parents think they should. Well now, taking taking into account the fact that there are about three hundred schools here in Oxfordshire and there's only one school so far that has chosen to even try to to opt out, and it was defeated at that school, then I see that is erm a comment on the kind of Education Authority we have here. Do you agree? We've all agreed on that, Bill, unless your hearing was impaired. I think we've Well I'm never sure We've all said Oxfordshire offers a first class education service. So that would be the argument against other schools even attempting to opt out in the Oxfordshire area? But as I have said to you, the Banbury School's decision to opt out was not taken on the grounds of the education offered in this county. It was on a very specific issue. Would you would you encourage any school in this county, bearing in mind your high praise of the standard of education here offered by the Education Authority, would you advise any school to opt out? I believe it is very likely that, because of the savings now being made within the education service, that some schools will be looking at the opting out process. Do you think they would be making a mistake? I personally believe that erm education has changed and I am now talking specifically of very small schools. I am not talking of secondary schools, although there are some very small secondary schools in Oxfordshire. But at the moment small primary schools may well look at the opting out procedure, and I would have to say to you that in many cases those very small primary schools are receiving, by the wish of the Council, a very substantial subsidy from the Local Education Authority in the manner in which they are funded and Do you think that subsidy should continue? Well, whether I think it should or Well, but I ask you that one. Whether I think it should or it shouldn't Well, wait a minute, it's a reasonable question. It's not a matter It's a reasonable question. It is a reasonable question. I believe that equality of education should also extend to equality of financing and that you What does that mean for these people who are listening and and involved with these schools? Well that means that I personally believe that the problems which many small village schools face are different problems to which many large urban schools face That's stating the obvious. but you've got to you've got to address both of those schools and ask yourself is it right for one to subsidise another. Now I believe that in the case of some of our small primary schools, and you have to build into the formula an element of subsidy, it is the size that subsidy which is open to debate. That is what the County Council is presently discussing and will come to a conclusion on February the twelfth, and I believe following that conclusion some small primary schools may seek to opt out. All I would say to you is that the very small primary schools I not only have to doubt the financial viability, but I personally sometimes would doubt that the National Curriculum can be delivered to a school where you've got an age range between five and eleven and you've only got thirty or forty children, and that is a personal point of view, which I have, erm having seen many of our schools, and I believe that the problems that some of our large urban schools have, with thirty to a class packed in, is also something we should address and give careful thought to when we are resourcing education. mhm. Bill. Jack Steer, who is the spokesperson for the Labour people on education. . Can I answer the question you asked Choppy, firstly about opting out being a stunt, and course it's a political stunt. It's another thing like the Poll Tax. It's a bright idea, brought up by thought up by somebody, writes it down on back of envelope, whacks it into the legislation without proper thought. Well, wait a minute, a stunt is usually something well thought out, done to achieve a particular aim. What do you think this was aimed to achieve? I'm not sure. I can't get into the mind of some of the present batch of legislators, because they don't seem to think thinks out logically, but what it's actually done, or what it's trying to do, is to make it very difficult to have an education system that is properly thought out, properly resourced and properly organized for the benefit of everybody and not just one or two people, and that's one of the difficulties and that's the difficulty that we any Local Authority is faced with. erm I think I mean I do think it's a stunt and I think stunts are very often not very well thought out, and I think your your definition is actually wrong. As far as small schools are concerned, erm one of the things that that became clear during the debate on Banbury School was that the school itself is funded according to the formula that is allocated for all the other Oxfordshire eleven to eighteen schools and it is not something additional. So that if any small schools would contemplate opting out because there are cuts in their budget, then those cuts would still apply and they would not actually get additional funding through the formula for their budget. Now the formula funding, in terms of all the schools in the county concerned, has given schools more responsibility. From my position as the chair of a governing body of a primary school, I don't actually think it's given us very much more flexibility in how we run that school or how that school is operated, and I don't really and I find it very difficult to see the benefits of us becoming suddenly having erm the responsibility of the funding dumped on us, and therefore the responsibility of any cuts from from erm Local Authorities. I really find it difficult to see benefits in L M S. mhm. And Harvey Markovitch. There's erm there's always a tension for those of us who are parents, particularly those of us who erm send our children to the state schools, as to erm what's in the best interests of our own particular individual child and what might be in the best interests of all the children in the area in which we live, and erm this vote was an invitation to think only, very selfishly, of what might be the situation for our children, and I'm very glad that erm many parents in Banbury thought of children in general living in North Oxfordshire and erm realise that you can't just take one limb of an education service and send it off spinning into its own orbit and not expect the rest to suffer. erm There's also a tension for Governors. You see at Banbury School our governing body erm has expressed itself clearly as against the tertiary education proposals as they were first put forward, and I am very pleased to have heard during the debate that they've been amended as a result of quite a lot as a result of the discussion that has gone on. That, too, is a dilemma for us. We are very proud of our school and we are particularly proud of our area sixth form centre, and my own three children have been there and I'm very grateful to it too. erm Nonetheless, while we want to carry on supporting that, we've also got to think, as Jack said, erm of as we enter the next century what is going to be right for our children, and we know that in many ways we have failed them and we know that we are producing many children who haven't had the training and the education that's going to be necessary for us to be erm economically competent in the future, so we've got to look at the whole of our educational provision, and frankly I think opting out was erm a sort of unnecessary blip on all of this that isn't really terribly important in the whole issue of how the children in this country should be educated. Well what investigations have you all made into the success of grant maintained schools elsewhere in the country? For instance, did you know that on average they have increased spending on books and equipment by ninety percent and that sixty percent of schools employ at least one more teacher and many employ more classroom support staff and that morale among teachers is widely reported to be higher, even where before those teachers opposed grant maintained status. As erm as a doctor, Bill, I have ingrained on my heart Aneurin Bevan's words when the National Health Service was introduced in this country by the post-war Labour government, against the wishes of my colleagues, and he commented that he would erm cross our palms with silver, and he did that very successfully, with the result that he stifled a lot of opposition amongst some very powerful people, and erm of course when you're trying to introduce a new scheme such as this and you're terribly keen that erm it should take off and be successful, you do, of course, cross palms with silver. We've seen that with the City technology colleges, which are nobody talks about, surprisingly enough, when we've discovered that actually industry isn't remotely interested in them, and of course in the first year of an opted out school one might see a bit of palm crossing with silver. But you know we have to look beyond the first year or two, we have to look at what's going to happen to that school over a much longer period of time, and quite frankly erm I would feel safer with erm what was called the big brother of the Local Authority. But actually big brothers can be quite kindly and look after you and help you with their experience. I'd be much happier with that because, as local people, we could influence our local Government at the ballot box. erm I feel much safer with that that the erm than our schools being under the control of the Department of Education, who will be very difficult to influence. Bob Morgan, spokesman for education on the Liberal Democrat side, do you see that there is a case for abolishing local control of schools and having the schools under the Department of Education? Oh, most certainly not. Under no circumstances. I It would certainly reduce a lot of bureaucracy. Well of course. Rubbish, you'd increase it. You you'd all it means is you'd have longer lines of communication to an even worse bureaucracy, and I think if a bureaucracy which can produce this situation of opting out as an alternative is any example to have, I would choose to be away from it. I think that this whole opting out system is exactly what Jack said. It was the back of a postcard and it's like so much else of this Government's policy. erm Take Poll Tax, for example, I can imagine a previous incumbent of Number Ten shrilly demanding that the spread of tax across the country should be done on a one off basis and charging forward and she's introduced it, and look what a bag of worms that's turned out to be. And I think we're going to have exactly the same thing with this opting out system. It's a erm it was let's see what we can do to these nasty Labour controlled authorities and see how we can break down their erm their control of education and immediately they introduce it then suddenly the things start happening and they have second thoughts about it, and I'm sure as night follows day that they're going to have second thoughts about this when it actually occurs. You've got erm you've got a perfect example of what you threw up to us a moment ago. In the early days of the school it does get more money, no question. It does get more money, therefore it's able to afford, I think you said one more teacher, which doesn't seem a tremendous expansion. It's able to spend ninety percent on books. I mean I notice you picked one of the matters of expenditure which is not the certainly in the higher range of of expenditure and pick out this one example. But what you're actually going to find is that what they've divorced themselves from is the assistance and the technical help that comes from the County Council, and whilst you may have your teachers trained up to a certain point you therefore have at that particular time you you have them fully trained, and then you say oh well I don't need any training for the next couple of years so I can step back and save on that area. In a couple of years time the other schools have gone past you and you suddenly find these services that you need to buy in are become very expensive and become unattainable because you've been spending your money in other directions. And a perfect example happened the other day — Kidlington School was burnt down. It took the Local Authority one week to have that school up and with resources there to enable it to run, and that's the sort of support and local school gets. Now you can there is no way that an opted out school on its own could repeat the exercise which was done by and absolutely excellent staff at the headquarters of the Local Education Authority, who managed to achieve this great success. Great credit to them. Yes, but that's But the others couldn't do it. That's a worst case scenario. Do you think that all policy must be established on the basis of worst case scenarios? No, I certainly don't think it should be, but I'm giving you an example. This isn't the first time that we've had a fire in the school and it isn't the first time that we've solved the problem quickly, and we'll have more again. What I'm saying is that an L E A can supply that sort of service, can do it really well, really well, and it isn't available to opted out I'd like to find out if part of your opposition to grant maintained status is due to the fact that as a councillor you would no longer be able to exercise control over grant maintained schools. I'm I'm not entirely convinced that we have enough control over the existing county schools, never mind, never mind whether we'd be able to retain it or increase it. Well if you don't have control over them, who does? I think the governing bodies do. You mentioned some figures just now, Bill, about nine percent increase in books, additional teachers and things. My local primary has, in fact, at least done that in the last year, and we haven't opted out, and secondly you will remember the article in the Guardian from thirteenth of November — thirteenth of November last year — Hull Grammar School, which was one of the first ones that went independent erm have now applied for an administration order which gives them breathing space before winding up petitions can be launched. Now in terms of the parents and in terms of the kids, that is no benefit to any of them. And what has happened is that they have done your one extra teacher and the extra books bit and they're finishing up effectively going into liquidation. Now that is not the sort of scenario we want, and it certainly wasn't the sort of scenario we wanted in Banbury. Choppy Spencer is are you prepared to accept the conclusion that some people might be suggesting right now that this whole stunt of opting out is a political fumble? Well I'm not It's another political fumble . I'm not prepared to accept that any more than I am prepared to accept the hogwash that we heard from Bob Morgan and his Liberal Democrats , because of course it may be extremely comfortable for him to be acting like a beached dolphin on the shores of Abu Dhabi, but the fact of the matter is, of course, that the Liberal Democrats, with or without the backs of their envelopes and cigarettes packets, are extremely unlikely to be making any national legislation, so they are quite comfortable in being able to observe how others might or might not do it. The fact of the matter is, as far as the erm and I accept to a certain degree what Jack has just said, that the power for schools lies with the Governors, and it lies with the Governors because the Conservative Government has enacted legislation to allow that to happen. And we are fortunate in Oxfordshire, and I have said that before, but all the country is not like Oxfordshire. There are some Local Authorities, in the main they are run by the Labour Party What, like Lincolnshire? Like the inner London boroughs that were, and the Inner London Education Authority which adopted an extremely dictatorial attitude — well that's all right, I don't necessarily disagree with that — but a very a very expensive attitude with it. Children cost twice as much to education there than they did in the outer London Boroughs, or indeed out in the styx as we are here in Oxfordshire. So that I'm very supportive of parent power. But on the question of grant maintained, of course, let's not forget what happened some time ago in places like Manchester Grammar School erm long before we had this new opting out legislation they were forced by the Labour Government to go direct grant, which they did, and they are a highly successful and I could rehearse just as many success stories, in fact many times more than Jack has rehearsed with his Hull Grammar School. I have to tell you I am not any sort of an expert on the budgets of grant maintained schools. It's not something that I've sought to examine. I've purely been concerned with the budgets of our own schools here in Oxfordshire and one of the ways that you can compare how efficient Oxfordshire is in terms of its expenditure is by looking at the national figures for recoupment, that's where a county takes in a child from another county, and look how that compares with the amount of money the Authority spends on educating that child. And we already know in Oxfordshire at secondary level that we have a very good record. The cost of educating our children is below the national recoupment figure, and that I think is good, right and proper and it reflects the many years of excellent Conservative administration that Oxfordshire has enjoyed. There is a little blip at the moment, certainly, but I Little? have to tell Bob whatever he might like to talk about that he turns it to the Poll Tax, the fact of the matter is that the Poll Tax is nothing to do with Oxfordshire County Council. Oxfordshire County Council was required to pre-set the amount of money it wanted from the District Councils who set a rate. They still have to pre-set the amount of money. This time the District Councils collect it from Community Charges payers, and whether you had a rating systems in place at the moment, or whether you have Community Charge, Bob and his high spending friends would still have to rein in their expenditure and recognise that the people of Oxfordshire cannot keep paying for his profligacy. Yes, I don't want to go into the Poll Tax argument on this I don't want to either, Bill, but I must come back on this, I mean Choppy wants all things and wants to be all things to all men. At the beginning of this erm programme he admitted that we had an excellent education service in Oxfordshire, and he's now, having taken no part in managing it for the last five years, he is now claiming that in fact it's due to what happened before. The effect here is that during the last five years the Conservatives have played no part in the management of this county whatsoever, and it has been left to the other two parties to come to an agreement. They have come to their agreement, they have done their job well, and they have produced and excellent education system and the blip which he is talking about is one which is forced on us at the present time by a Conservative Government, who has decided that there is going to be no further expansion in the school service which we're providing, and indeed is imposing upon us cuts which are going to mean that we reduce those services, and to argue that from a point of view that it's a considered piece of policy from a Government which if I has introduced, if I may say, Poll Tax, an economy which is a disaster area, exports in nothing happening there, inflation We want to keep the commercials down to a minimum. Well I promise I won't keep them more than that, but this coming from a party that's brought about that, and then being critical of others and the lack of intent, I think the he said it right at the beginning we have a very good education system, and I'm saying we've got one despite this Government. I'd like to ask Jack Steer why does the Labour Party want to return grant maintained schools to Council control, bearing in mind that the Labour Party say they're going to abolish County Councils, so who will erm these schools be returned to? Will they be re will schools in Banbury be run from Birmingham, or The Cherwell District Council will run it. God forbid. Jack Steer. The Labour Party view is that there should be unitary authorities. Now what does this mean? It means that instead of County and District Councils you have one authority that takes over both sets of functions. It gives me great pleasure to announce that that would mean Cherwell District Council would have to disappear as well, and that would be another blip off the horizon erm but that what would happen you would therefore have a smaller authority, who would then become the Education Authority, and that would be would have to be, I think, somewhere in between the current District Council size in Cherwell or the Vale, of what about a hundred thousand, and the present county, which is rather more than half a million. mhm. Is it still labour policy that erm sixth forms should be abolished and replaced by tertiary colleges? It's the last manifesto, which went out in eighty seven, included a promise to erm develop tertiary education wherever it was appropriate locally. erm there has not been a manifesto for the next General Election, which may take place in a week or two, or in a year or so. So until that comes out I cannot actually confirm what may or may not be in that manifesto. Yes, Harvey Markovitch. Yes, I can see, Bill, that the reason why you invited me today is that I am Mr Clean , not being a Local Authority Councillor of any shape or hue erm and I seem to remember Well I knew I would have three people in the studio with sandwich boards on. Of course. Well erm I seem to Oh, really. You did ask a question earlier on and I think the the erm behind the question was the suggestion that erm the Local Authority Councillors we have on the governing bodies are a terrible interfering lot of bigots erm and erm surprisingly you might like to know that they're not really. They tend to they tend to be a bit noisier than the others, but actually they are very constructive, and on Banbury School Governors it's not the political appointees that erm I've seen as a problem particularly. You have to remember that on the whole the school is run by the principal and her staff and erm the teaching is related to the National Curriculum. The Governors control very much of the finances of the school and supervise what is going on. They get advice from the officers of the Local Education Authority, so there's a number of people who are running things, if you like to put it that way, and they have to have good relationships erm and I must say that erm I haven't seen anything obstructive, particularly on our Board of Governors, from local Councillors and we've had nothing but help from Local Education Authority officers, and I'm glad we're not going to lose that help. Harvey Markovitch, are you a political appointee as a Governor? No, I'm not, I'm a co-opted member of the Governing body. I assume that that's because I'm a Consultant Paediatrician in Banbury . I deal with children all the time erm many of my I've been there eight years now and so lots of children have passed through my hands who in particular have lots of educational problems and need special help, and I suppose somebody though erm that although the rage now is to have Governors who are working in industry, and that's perfectly proper, that it wouldn't be a bad idea to have somebody who is supposed to have some knowledge and background of the way children behave and what children need, so erm although I do have some politics, you know, Bill, I erm largely keep them quiet in the governing body. mhm. Governing bodies, Bill Jack Steer, from Labour. only work when you actually have a proper partnership between staff, parents, erm the senior management of the school, the Governors themselves, and the L E A. Now in those circumstances, and I can think of a number of schools where that works very well, the governing body is a very powerful force, for links out from the school into the outside world, not only into business and industry, but also into the L E A, and it's actually quite a lot of schools quite like to have a County Councillor on their governing body because it gives them an in to the L E A at a policy-making, or an individual decision-making level. Where it breaks down and you get a governing body that is split down the middle, where you get staff who tend to who might tend to go in an opposite way to the head teacher, where you get parents who are asked to make difficult decisions as with an opt out ballot, then I think that you have to look very hard at the way that that school is managed and the way that it's going in the future, because those are the sort of issues that unless you get those right the future for the school cannot be as bright as it is for one where they are working as a team. Nonetheless, parents have given Banbury School a vote of confidence. Yes, I'd like to be clear about the amount of control that the Education Authority has and the amount of control that the parents have. How would you divide it? Harvey. Well parents, of course, can have their voice heard in a number of ways. Firstly they have, from Banbury School at least, four specific parent Governors, who are there to act on behalf of parents. Secondly, erm actually most of the rest of us on the governing body, or many of the rest of us on the governing body, even though we're not parent Governors, are either now or have been parents of children at Banbury School, and that includes some of the political members too, so that erm I hope we all share the same interests. So parents can erm have an influence via their parent Governors. So far as the Local Authority is concerned, it's still got to act within the bounds of the National Curriculum, for example, and erm I suppose theoretically one could imagine a Local Authority doing malevolent and malignant with schools but that's Or incompetent things? Yes, but that's really not the case here. What particularly worried me about the whole issue of opting out was that some of the services that the Local Education Authority provide are minority services, and I feared they would go by the board. Like for instance what? Well like, for example, we have excellent educational psychologists in Oxfordshire and erm we have advisers for children with special needs in Oxfordshire, and they are extremely useful people in helping out those many children who are not like the average run of children and have specific and particular problems, and I was very fearful that eventually an opted out school might turn its noses up at such children, and I think they needed protection, so that's one example. There are also the children who are musicians. There are also the fact that children have the opportunity to erm go to Local Authority run residential centres to do fieldwork and so on. Like Hill Inn for instance? Absolutely, and all of these things all of these things could, potentially, be at risk if everybody starts running away doing their own thing. mhm. Bob Morgan, from the Liberal Democrats. Bill, there's a point, you keep referring to Governors who are political appointees, and the inference that you give to that. I've referred to that once. Yeah. Well you did it actually a bit more than that — you've referred to it about two or three times, but that's immaterial. The point is that the inference which you give to it is that they're not quite fit to be Governors, by comparison with others, and I'd like to defend that because I can assure you that I have never ever nominated a Governor for a school who I have not thought would be advantageous to that Board of Governors to have as a member and that he will be he or she will be a contributor to that particular school, and I've done it time and time and time again and indeed on occasions have had headmasters coming to me and thanking me for the particular person that I put in. Now I say that as myself, but I know it is reflected throughout the whole of the county. We are all very conscious that the people we appoint to governorships these days are going to be a. working Governors and b. are going to be those that will give something to the school, rather than simply be an appointment just for some stature. Yes, but as a County Councillor I didn't expect you to attack the idea of politically appointed Governors. There you are again, you see, politically appointed Governors. Why can't you simply say County Council appointed Governors, which doesn't have that same inference of the word political. Choppy Spencer, you've heard Harvey Markovitch suggest that if schools opted out certain very important facets of the schools might be trimmed down terrifically, or might be excluded altogether, like for instance music teaching. That's erm a fairly series erm vision of the future of schools that have opted out. Do you think that that's realistic? Well I don't think it necessarily applies to opted out schools. There's no secret about it at all, the County Council is looking very carefully at all of its centrally held services. The peripatetic music service is but one, although some schools of course have their own music departments in addition to peripatetic music teaching. erm the services in terms of the special needs I think there's no doubt at all that erm from a Conservative point of view I actually believe that schools, under their heads, know best, and I am quite happy to trust schools with a budget of money which will enable them to buy in the specific needs that their school requires. And it may be, for example, that you will have a school that has a very high erm high number of children perhaps who are particularly motivated towards computer studies. Now if you give the school its own budget it can in fact, if it so wishes, go to the private sector, it can buy in private sector computer expertise to teach the children, and that will be very beneficial. That is getting away from the old system whereby the County Council held a vast store of advisers in Macclesfield House, stacked up, and schools that needed them requested them and off they went, but schools in fact that wanted perhaps a different sort of advice, wasn't able to get it from Macclesfield House, and couldn't buy it outside because it didn't have the money to do so. But if if a lot of schools opted out could you imagine that there might be one school that was famed for its computer excellence, and another school famed for its musical excellence, and you might have different specialist kinds of schools, not quite as dramatically delineated as I have suggested, but that would be the balance of interest in these different schools and would that be healthy? Well I certainly believe that many of these expertises will be held centrally at County Hall and will be purchased in by the schools, and there is nothing wrong in that. I will see that happening, but it is the freedom of schools to choose that is all important, and there are some particular elements of expertise which are not available to schools because it's not available centrally, and I believe that giving schools their budgets goes a great way to meeting this. Harvey Markovitch, your views on the lessons of this opt out exercise at Banbury. I think the erm major lesson was that it was an irrelevance. We are going through enormous changes in the education system at the moment and as Governors we have had to struggle terribly hard to learn how to govern schools as more power and more authority has been devolved to us, and we should have been spending this year erm working together on learning how to run a more successful school, and instead erm we've had to waste a hell of a lot of time on really what was an absolute political nonsense and irrelevance, and I am glad we can turn aside from that. Can I say one more thing? You've asked us a lot about what Governors can do and what Councillors can do, it's teachers that make a school and schools are going to be excellent if the teachers and heads of faculty in those schools are excellent, and we've got lots of those in Banbury. Jack Steer, what lessons do you think we've learned form this exercise? By and large I agree with Harvey erm I think one of the lessons that is becoming more and more obvious to more and more parents is that schools are there to educate. Whether they are in a particular building in one place or another, actually I couldn't give a monkey's as a parent, and I don't care where the school is as long as I can get my kids there and they get a good deal. And as far as this freedom for schools, I am rather more interested in freedom for parents, and things like open enrolments seem to me to be more akin to how far the au pair can drive the Volvo in twenty minutes than any real choice for parents. mhm. And Bob Morgan, your views on what have we learned from this. I think we've erm we've erm obviously learned that opting out is not for the Oxfordshire people — I'm delighted about that and I just hope that as a result of this we do not see too many problems for Banbury School, both in the fact that the exercise has been somewhat divisory and I hope that they're able to bring it together quickly afterwards. Well, many thanks to my guests here discussing the Banbury School opt out and the general principles of opting out. Jack Steer is the spokesperson for education on the Labour benches, and Harvey Markovitch is a Governor at the Banbury School. Choppy Spencer is the spokesperson for the Conservatives on education, and Bob Morgan represents the Liberal Democrats. That's it from me, Bill Hiney. Thanks for joining us. Goodbye. It might be a good guess today if I could say that most people either done as much as they could with their model and had this erm finished, so I asked if they would help me to sort out the erm they nearly did it brilliant way, remember I had the little labels on them and they've all got mixed up one way or another so we're here to scrap through the remains of erm and got the wire wool and got them down and washed them, what I would like today if you would be so kind as to assist when you've finished your pottery is to re-label these, now some of you er, have already finished pottery and start straight away, those who only have the finishing touches to do, start half way through the lesson or whatever, but I do intend to give a demonstration now, so, could you gather all round you must know where all the erm if you take a and take a to your desk and then the trouble with is about three speed of knots going on this flight here I put them on your desk and then arrange them in the order that you know I approve. Can anybody remember offhand? So it goes, yellow, yellow ochre erm scarlet red, crimson, that's the dark red, light green, dark green erm, sky blue, indigo purple, brown and black a lot of people get mixed up I like you that I realize is very so can you see that board there? That's just erm Er Emma keep thy hands to thy self otherwise that the eye can induce the old custom of putting them off The goes streamingly across there like that put as much glue on the back as you can so that they're really well anchored down, leave the so the outside edge of the square level with the lining, so they're not all skew-whiff. When you come to doing along on the other side make sure they're beautiful parallel does that make sense to everybody? So that's a beautiful block, now did I explain to you lot yesterday about er, that was yesterday sorry about er collage or pottery No No, sorry about that, right, now one should keep they would like to paint their pottery, the fact is if you initially don't paint your pottery with normal paints you paint your pottery with erm oxides which fire well, I'll explain that to you once the er, as the comes through, so if you just wait I'll talk to you again a little bit about that If you go into the top cupboard, there's a shelf marked and right I'll take through, er, ah put the a chemical term er difficult question, but you might be able to give me an example of one aha Okay, that does have oxygen in it, yes, I don't think it's I think you're wrong, not being a specialist can anybody else give me an example of an oxide with that is a metal, but it's not erm an oxide metal nearly all metals have oxides and those powderless substances on the surface of the which is scraped off and used as so called paint for the pottery, mixed with a little light which is burnt off when the whole thing gets fired in the kiln, so what will have to happen is the, your pots you've done so far, once they're thoroughly dried and go into the kiln, they're fired at a high temperature and then they'll come out this bit fired you'll then separate them with oxide pastes, dip them into glaze, which I'll explain in a minute, and re-fire them at a higher temperature, the glazed would in the heat, once it's cooled down you'll get the familiar appearance of a glossy surface of pottery, with the oxide having also fired and sometimes changed colour and that's your colour underneath, on your base a layer of colour and then a plastic surface right if I talk about glaze, erm vitrify does, did anybody understand that? Have you heard the term before? You've heard of glazed before yeah er I don't Mr sir, have you heard the term glazed? Makes it shiny, yes, what is it that is shiny? Specifically The surface The surface, do you know what it's made out of? It's very similar in word Polish It's not polish, it's glass, if you look at the windows, they are familiar glass aren't they? Well actually pottery is covered in a thin layer of glass, so that when your pot is dipped into the glazed solution, it's simply a suspension of silicone in water which ride on the surface, to leave a powder, which is really finely ground up sand, when you put that into the kiln to fire at a higher temperature it mystifies it, it turns into glass, now it's in its simplest form. I'll have, have to do that later for you because you won't be doing it then, this lesson next year, and if your pots don't go up in the kiln I will be glazing for you, so of course you see the colour and everything we don't have the time to do that, it's a shame, well actually they'll look very smart just with the glaze on, but I'll try and get that done for you, okay, can you put your hand up if there is you need to do today you okay, will you people very carefully go and There's a photo on the Galloway News. De yes aye. He's mentioning the, the gypsies. No hi hi his his story is more connected with farming. Mhm. You know what it was like in the nineteen thirties. Mhm. These are all Galloway words in his glossary? Oh probably. Like have you heard Blashie Aye,blashie aye we quite oft blashie day. What, what would you call today with the mist? Oh well it's oh kind of hoary. Hoary? Aye, the, the, as I tell you about the . Mhm. Well they live in Castle now. Mhm. The live in . And the live in , and the live in . They've all houses now. They're all old tinker ? Aye, they're of the tinkery breed. Mhm. A bus driver I spoke to in told me that the tinkers stayed down from . That's right, aye. He told me more, he said it was at a farm near Park. Oh aye, aye. They had a camp there, and then I spoke to another man, called , who was a fisherman at one time Oh yes. And he recalls or was it the s same bus conductor, the same bus driver I mean. was it? Bob, I think his name is, it might have been, I've got the name somewhere, but he also said they were up at . Oh that's up here, above Castle . That's right. They also camped up there. Can you remember any other places round about here that the tinkers camped? Er no I really, oh they came,there was ne you see there, there was a lot come in at what we call up there. That's er near opposite ? That's right, aye. When, they camped in an old road. Aha, that I passed. Aye. This is quite near on old military road isn't it, well just . There was no road that you come down there then. In the seventeen nineteen ninety nine. No there was no road, and you know the main road up through , up from to and on to? Aha. There was no road there, there then. Mhm. The, the road to was what they call the old military road. And all the roads converged in it you see, well you see here, you'll see where it says here road from by to . Mhm. You see there was no road up through then, Mhm. it was just after that that they built it. Mhm. You see and that al old aunt that I told you about she always referred this road through as the new road. Mhm. And of course it was the old military road that Is that the old military road that's No no no it's away it's over here. Aha, I see. This just a, a plan of this Whereabout are we on it? here. Aha.. Aye. You see the first church in our parish, was in here. Aha, in . And that's why it's called . I see. And it was in fifteen it was built in fifteen I think about fifteen sixty. Mhm. And there, there it is. That's it on the plan. Aye. You see and they called it the, the church of Saint Constantine, and it shifted from here and they built one down at the and then they shifted from the to the present site in about seventeen forty. Mhm there's a, where I come from in Fife,in there's a, well it's a part of , there's a school, secondary school, called . Aye. There seems to be quite a number. Of course you see and that's how this place got its name . And what about the ? Well you see there was another when they built it, the new, the p the present site there are there too. Mhm. And to differentiate between the two they made this a , Mhm. . That means bigger as they, Mhm. just the same as er , again whenever you get a with , that that was supposed to be the bigger of the Yeah. Is that the right time, twelve o'clock? Oh it will, that, Aye. Oh no it's not twelve o'clock yet,do that that one's ab that one's about ten minutes slow. So it's five to twelve? Eh? Aye. Aha. It's just for my bus, I get a bus that I think leaves at half twelve, and if I miss it there's not another one that takes me to . Oh. So I'm just, I'll walk down, how far is it from here down to the main road along the road? Oh you have to back the ro the way you come. Do I? To get the bus. What over the hill? Oh no, no no, just keep to the road. Aha. Oh you walked up, you walked over the hill? Aye, aye. What from the cafe? Aye. Oh, oh it's not far over, just over down there. Just about four fields. So I go over, right over No I, I'd keep to the road. Go right along the road, Aye. You can, you can and Mhm. down and up to the right, up to the left. Mhm. Up over the hill. Oh he, he didn't come over by, oh he did come by the quarry. No, I just came over fields, I went along and followed a dyke, I turned left at the cafe, and then followed the first I saw going up. Right up over the hill? Aye. Oh aye, and then you come You, you come down through a field with a lot of beasts in it? No I missed it, there was no beasts in the field I came down. Oh. There was a lot of dykes. Climbing over dykes. Aye. Well you'd better have a cup of coffee or . That'd be great. That's been A flie hook a flie hook Aye, you ken what a flie hook is? Aha, er somebody that's overdressed. Aye, they're dressed up like a flie hook well a flie hook what you fish with. Ah I see, right. There's, there's one, something about a dog or something, involves describing somebody like a dog or that's had a bad temper, I forget, there's all sorts of words. Oh for bad temper, Aye. oh there's lots of words. Thran did you ever hear that one? No I never. And crabbit Aha, I've heard that. Er What would you, did you have a word for the tinkers? Well no they were just described as tinkies. Mhm, thank you. It's a great bit of machinery. Aye, I need it, aye. Oh well, it saves you penning. That's right. And I can, I can get the pronunciation. Aye, and it's not only that, you can, you can take that and you can bring it back That's right. play it over again. Or slow it down. Aye. You were telling me about your uncle. Oh well I was going to say, er an Uncle Wal, that's a brother of my father's, he was up here one Sunday and he went up, the tinkers were up at and there was sixty one of them. Did I say sixty one or sixty two, I'm not just sure, but there was sixty odd. At ? That bit up there. Hill was it? Hole Hole? Hole. Aye you see I cannot tell you the right story, but when Mary Queen of Scots Mhm. er er come away from the Battle of , Mhm. I think it was the Battle of , she came down through here and she stayed the night at House. And she came on horseback and she came over that road making for , Mhm. and then she stayed the night at , and she sailed across from Port Mary, is Port Mary at ? I'm not sure I'll check on . At Maryport, and no, and sailed over to Maryport, and then she went down to . But she came along what road? That old road up there. Up in the tops? Aye. That you showed me on the plan? That's right. Is it sti is that the road that the tinkers It's still there. Is that the same road that the That's the same road as the tinkers stopped on. And Mary Queen of Scots at one time Aye. have a habit of, of going to places like that to . Aye, aye. And, and how it got the name Hole, was there's supposed to be gold buried somewhere up there, but what quantity or anything about it I cannot tell you. Mhm. But I've often thought about buying a mine detector or what ever you call it, and, but you see there was an old churchyard down here too. And I've thought about buying a, a me erm a metal detector and going up and going over the where the kirkyard was because when there were was here that was in about sixteen oh it might have been about sixteen sixty or sixteen eighty. Er they ploughed up a lead coffin. At ? No, No. up here at, the church of Saint Constantine. So when there was a lead coffin there you'd think there'd be something else. That's right. I know the exact spot where it was. But you can't te no there any you . I was gonna ask you, ask you this, what, what did your father say to you about the tinkers? Oh well he, he no he didn't they just come and went and Did he like them? Oh aye, he was very friendly with them. And how about other folk locally? Ah well there was a lot of folk resented them. Why? Oh well I don't know. I don't ken why they used to blame my father for allowing them to stay, stay, and and er, och, you get a lot of animosity. Mhm. Well I'll you know I remember the time of the oh I remember it well,the, the nineteen twenty six strike, oh boy, there was twenty six people slept in that barn in one, one night. You've no idea the miners and, and people that came out onto the road and had nowhere to go or stay and had nothing. And I'll you something, every one of these people got a bowl of porridge in the morning before they left. From here? Aye. It used to be it used to be kind of famous, the for they all, they all came here. Mhm. I could write a book on tramps. Mhm. Mind you there was some, there was some lads among them. What were their names, there? Oh well Nicknames? No, oh well some of them was nickname but er What nicknames can you remember? Oh well er Heather Jock , I mean , there used to be an old fellow, er Jimmy they called him. Mhm. And Jimmy er he was a, served his time for a blacksmith, Mhm. and he went away to America. Him and his sister and I think a brother and two or three of them but Jimmy was of the roving type. And er he, of course with him being a blacksmith, he could get a job anywhere in America, he says he could leave a town tonight and land in another town, he says and he could be sure of getting a job with him being a blacksmith. And he, he used to tell us about his travels around America, you know and he, he told us about working in Baltimore in the forty sixth street or something , in a forge, they called them forges out there. Mhm. And he says there was sixty, he says, he says he's seen a hundred horses standing to get shod on a morning. A hundred horses. And he did them all? No no no, och there was about twenty or thirty fires in the place. aha, I wondered. Aye. And And he went round and I'll tell you what, he worked with a man called Ross. This Ross, and that's the man that started up Oliver Tractors, of Southbend,In I think it was Southbend, Indiana. He worked with him for a while, making implements. Mhm. And then he went on and he landed up in Seattle the time they were going up to the Klondike Gold Rush. The same Aye. man? And, and er he wondered about whether he should go up to Klondike or not. And he said he'd had a whiskies and he was down by the station and he said he jumped on the train and he landed up in De Detroit, and then the South African War broke out Mhm. and he left America and he came home and joined up and went to the South Af South African War. And he was out there for about three years, he come back home and of cou just travelled the country, again working on the farms and that. And the nineteen fourteen eighteen war broke out, he joined up again. And he landed out at the Dardanelles, and here they discovered his age he was away near, he was fif about fifty six or something or fifty eight or something and he was out there in the Dar and they packed him straight back home but oh boy he could tell you the stories about America. What other tramps can you remember? Aye well there was, that was Jimmy , there was Old . He sharpened saws. Mhm. There was Pat , he swept chimleys , er and then there used to be an old fellow come, he used to mend, mend dishes you ken, what you call a china faker. Mhm. And i oh boy could he mend them. I used to have a dish here flung out now, that he repaired, and repaired it with staples. He drilled the, he drilled the, the thing away and put kind clasps in. Mhm . And there was did I tell you about Old , he, he sharpened saws. I remember one night he come here and ooh it was a hard hard frost and he was and he slept in the barn , and he went in and he wanted a dram of water to have his drink through the night, and it was hard hard frost, and the water trough for the horses was down here, of course it when he Would you care for a cup of coffee? Aye we'll just be there now. thanks. Mm. Thank you that'll be lovely. Aye, I'll bring it down. Oh you'll bring it down, that'll be grand. And er of course he went in, he was real regimental, again he'd been an old soldier. And of course he goes in and the horse drops in the far side of the wee barn, and er Old goes in with his dram and he dips it into the horse trough you ken, and he turns you ken with his regimental, just gets to the side of the barn when he coming back out and he went into reverse. And he went staggering back and of course the horse trough got him here and he sat down in it. Aye . Was he going for a water? Aye for a dram of water for maybe have a drink through the night. Aha, out of the horse trough? Aye. And he fell right in it? And of course the horse trough, it's always running. Aha. It's not like a s tap or anything, it's overflow for the domestic supply. Well he came up there and he lay down with th these clothes on. Aha. Never took a thing off. What time of year was this, summer? Oh the winter. Winter? Aye, hard hard frost. Oh of course you were telling me, aye. Another night there used to be one, Old Bob , used to do bit of droving. And he always used to come up from , he lived in and he Aha. come up from , had a jug or two at come over here and stay the night and then walk down to in the morning. And there's a time when my father lived at the , and I'm going up the road this night and I hears this queer kind of grunting, and I couldn't understand it of course it was dark and I hears it again. I says, what on earth's that, I says, there's something in that ditch, and I went back and I looked and here's Old Bob lying on his back in the ditch and the water running round each side of his head. What a job I had getting him pulled out. He was about a tonne weight. A fat bloke was he? Oh no he wasn't t he wasn't too fat Old Bob. Well I gets him pulled out of the ditch and I brings him down and it's the time I, I had Sarah boil up the boiler for the pigs. And er I gets him down and I gets him into the stable, and I gets all the clothes off him and he gets into a bag,a bran bag,more bags and lay down and covered himself, and I hung his clothes round the boiler fire. They were dry for him in the morning . That's good. And then there used to be old Tom and Mary. By God she was a lad old Mary. She could she could er drink the Red Biddy, yeah that was that cheap wine. Aha. Half a crown a bottle it was . What was it called? Red Biddy. South Africa. Oh boy oh boy, she used to . Can you remember any nicknames had by the local folk? Aye there was all, ah well no th they near nearly all got called by their surnames. Mhm. There was old , old only sold one thing and that was naphthalene balls, you ken? Moth balls. Aha. And yeah, he had a great big bag of er naphthalene balls, and of course he, he went to a, near the villagers down here in and he knocked the door with a stick you ken? And this wifey come out and she gave him a nasty talking to, chapping chapping on her door with a stick. He said, did you expect me to chap with my head? Aye. Do you expect me to chap with my head? And then there was there was aye, I told you about Pat , he swept chimleys . Aha. He er and then there was old Heather . Oh and then there used to be another old fellow come here, they called him. He played the tin whistle for a living, you ken, he used to play up and down the streets in and and . And by he could play it. Aha. He was a grand tin whistle player. And are these, all these peop people you're telling me about they would just walk around and sleep wherever they could? Oh yes, oh aye. The last one that st was here you ken how long he stayed? Sixteen years. In the area? In the, in the byre. When was that about? He just, well Charlie they called him. He was an Irishman. Mhm. And he used to stay in a hostel in , Aha. and as long as he could give a residence Mhm. he could get social security but here they closed the social security bit down in and he'd nowhere so he came up here, oh he'd stayed here many time previous to that. When would this be? Oh well he died I mean the sixteen years, what, what time? He'd come here just about nineteen fifty something. Mhm. And of course he came here, he, and one day and he says, could I gi give this place as an address and I'll get social security? I says, och aye, certainly Charlie. So he made up a bed in the front of the byre there, and he was sixteen year in it. And he used to walk from here to and sign on twice a week. And walk back. And how old would he be? Well he was seeming to six when he died. You see he used to get over the stick pretty often, if you understand what I mean by over the stick? Aye. Er this night he was, when I went into the byre in the morning Charlie wasn't there. So I waited, he generally turned up, I've seen him not be up home till eight and half past eight in the morning but he never turned up so about nine o'clock I says, I'd better phone the police. So I phoned the police and I said, Charlie went away last yesterday, I says, and he hasn't turned back up this morning. I says, I doubt he must be lying around somewhere. So here, oh the policeman says, aye we'll attend to it. However, about ten o'clock the police car come up into the close and I was up in the workshop and I says to him I says, aye, I says, have you found Charlie? He says, aye, we've found him. I says, he'll be bracksy Do you know what bracksy is? Eh? Er filled with drink? No. No. It's a disease sheep die with. I says, he'll be bracksy He says, oh, he says, he's far worse than that, he's dead. Well bracksy and dead's the same, they got him lying dead in the wood away down here at the . When was this? It'd be about two year ago. Just at, two years just now. And he died seventy six years ago Aye. and this time of year, January. Aye. Just about this time. Aye. Seventy nine. Ach Seventy eight , eighty, nineteen eighty it would be. It would have been that. Seventeen, er eighteen, er nineteen seventy nine. It would be, it's not that, not that desperate . Oh right. But oh he was a worthy, and he hated the ruddy Irish. Did he? He was an Irishman mind you. But he fair detested them. Mhm. Another, another Irishman was a dagger to Charlie . Oh he was, he was embittered against his own kind, you ken. Mhm. You've had your fair share of characters up here. Oh hold your tongue. You ken when there, there are, this, this old Mary that I tell you about er, she'd had smallpox when she was young, she used to be a herring gutter. You ken? A kipper. Mhm. She wor used to work in the kipper industry, and she'd had smallpox once, knocked her off cos you should have seen her face. It was an awful mess, and I remember Jimmy , er saying about old Mary, You'd think her face had worked . That's, that's his description? Eh? That's her, his, his description of her? She'd a tinkered face. Oh aye. That she had an old Tom, Mary and Tom . Mm. He used to make bru er heather brushes and pot scrubbers. They all had their, they all had a kind of trade they could And they would all come through and stay a few nights with That's right, and move on. So then, where else would they go to stay? Oh well they used to have a list of places. The was the main place round here but they used to stay a lot at the er over there at . , that's over by , they stayed there and although they just had their places that, that you ken they never What would you say in the Galloway for somebody that just stayed pa passing through the farm here, you know, going from place to place, Oh, passing through. well we used to call them tramps. No but I mean, ah you know the word for going from place to place Oh and passing through. what would we call that? Just like what they would do. We'd just have no I just cannot think of it. You see and then you'll be away and I'll say to myself now that describes it. Aha. Again but it's not easy just getting asked a thing just right away. Oh right. Just trying to remember you ken that professor, he came twice here, Aha. er I know he was really amused at some of the sayings we had. Aha. He was , he said he'd send us, once they'd got it all sorted out he said he'd send us a book, the book on it. He was gonna write a book about it he said. Did never . But I've never got it. The Encyclopedia has, by you know has all the words. Oh aye. You see I have my son-in-law Aha. oh boy he's the boy to go and ask about, he's got all the old books. Has he? Ooh, aye thousands of pounds worth . Is he er what does he do? He's a timber merchant, Mhm. he's in the timber trade I should say. He lives up just two or three mile up the road there,. Mhm. But he's got all books and aye all the , what do you call that other one? There's East Galloway Sketches, there's Galloway Gossip. Aye, Galloway Gossip, ah but he has, there used to be a, a monthly magazine come out they called the Gallovadian. Aha. And it was very very interesting, he has quite an assortment of them, but he hasn't, The whole lot? no no. And there's the Transactions. Oh aye, and the funny thing, he was away down in England one day, and he went into this shop, and here, there was this bundle of magazines, and he had a look and here it was the Gallovadians. And he bought them. Mhm. And er, of course I, when I go up there I, I read some of his you ken old books and that and this night I was up, he'd Gallovadians you see. And I gets this one out and I'm reading through it and I looks at the name John , and then I began to take an interest in it and, here I discovered that my grandfather and my great grandfather that's like my grandfather and my grandmother's father Mhm. were on the jury when was hanged at for murder. And my grandfather was on the jury when , Mary was hanged, was you ken convicted. This is what, going back to the She was the last woman to be hanged in Scotland. Aha. Mary . And your grandfather was on that jury? He was on that jury, and he was in the sa a jury with this What did she do? He was a farmer. No what did sh she do? Who? Mary ? Aye. Right, what can I do for you this morning? Well erm I I'm still I'm still having them panic attacks I've still made a diary of it . A merry Christmas, aha. Let me have a look. And er I've I've Oh yeah. used last one today er Then w where it says M on it means only a mild attack. The Yo yo said that, a Mr . Erm very very few. Yeah. Erm erm I'm coping alright, Doctor , Mm. you understand what I mean, I don't just lay in bed I just get Yeah. on with me work same. I suppose that's a good thing in one way. But You have about one a every week that One to two weeks aren't you? Yeah, well as I say, sometimes I go along while in between but I I think it's more or less when when I've been aggravated a bit, you know what I mean? And then the the last few times it's me son's been aggravating me to go into his caravan, you know what I mean ? Oh. And I don't want to go. I'm not one for holidays , No , no. I like being in i it's it's s It's your nature, if if That's right. your if your nature's for gadding about, I think that's okey-dokey , but if it isn't I mean I like me home. I'm a home bird. That's right. That's Er right, I must admit, I'm inclined the same way. Yeah, yeah. Now then Me h me husband's gone, he he's gone with elde with eldest grandson he has. Are you happy on your own? I yeah. Yeah. A a as I say er i it takes a bit of getting used to when you're just making a meal for yourself, you know what I mean you're you're that used to carry 'em about and picking after 'em and Holiday a holiday at home. I'm holiday at home, yeah. I've lit this I've got me dog so I'll be alright. She Now then. she won't let anybody touch me. What do you want to do about these? Because Well well what you s Do you find they work? Well do you think they're alright, I mean er Are they h are they helping you, when you take them? Well the er they they're helping me, Yeah. But they're apt to make me feel a bit I suppose that's what they're for, a bit docile like, you know what I mean? Yeah, well what we c But er Yeah. I I you know I cope with them alright, I I I as you can see Doctor how many prescribed. I mean it was October when I come and see you last time. November actually. Oh well that's when I had prescription, and er I think I think we've got er three choices. As I say er I only take them when I've got to take 'em, you understand what I mean, but I shall sit there and Yeah. Something'll just come into me Yeah. mind, you know what I mean, and I get Yeah. a bit panicky wondering if Yeah. I can think it out. Yeah. I know it's daft. Might think about a commercial what's happened years ago. Yeah. It just seems as though it flashes in my mind, I don't know it I think I've always had a had a overactive mind, actually, you know I've always worked Well and We could put you on something on a regular basis to help to damp them down. Mm. But you weren't very keen on that la No as as I say Doctor, I don't Same as I was on the valium, you know Yeah. what I mean, I I I don't know whether that's a throwback Doctor from er being on them, I don't know. I think they call them flash backs don't they or something . Yes, that's right. But as I say I cope alright with them and as I say Doctor, I always seem as though I wake up with one, do you Yeah. understand what I mean, so Well it must be in my dreams or Or what we could do, if you say these this dose makes you a bit drowsy, we could give you the same stuff but in a lower dose. Mm. And see if that will help without actually making you You feel too dopey . feel flaccid, as you say. Is that okay, shall we try a lower dose? Yes please. Now if you find the lower dose isn't working then we can always go back to Well this dose. describe them again Doctor, I I cope with them, I only just take 'em when I've got to do . What this dose again? Yes please. Y you don't want to try the No I don't want As I say I don't take them for sake I mean as you see how many you prescribed for me, can't you? Okay. But er Well I shall give you thirty. Yeah. Er and that'll last you about a year. Yeah. And that's fine. And this is really the ideal way to use this drug . Mm. It's a very good drug when used properly, and that's exactly what you're doing. And Yeah, yeah, yeah. And half the time As I say I don't want anything on a on a regr regular Yeah, yeah. basis Doctor . Not same as the valium was. Yeah. Because you get too independent of 'em, you know what That's right. I mean? Yeah. I'm independent Not independent Yeah. I getting me words up . Just when you need it. And we only give you thirty anyway. Yeah. As I same I'm I'm You know, to be a bother like, but I thought well I'd be best to come up and see you I could have just have asked for an another prescription . Well no, I think it's sensible Yeah. to see you from time to time Yeah. just to see how you're getting along. Yeah, yeah . And make sure there's no other But problems that have me heart's alright isn't it? I mean you know me heart As far as we know you're blood pressure and things have been fine . Me me heart's going nine to dozen as me mam'd say, bless her, but er You know what I mean. That's right. And I think er I think it's that what worries you sometimes, you know er er If it can stand the pace, but as I say. That that's it. Okay. Yeah. All being well, we'll see you Yeah. next autumn or so, next summer Yeah, well If if I want you, I Yeah. know I know where you are, Doctor . You do you do. Yeah. Thank you Doctor. That's okay, nice to see Yeah. you. think do it in a situation which invites this informal repertoire erm Mm I mean I, I did, one thing last er a few weeks ago is that I er cos I m it's a I do this market research it's really boring Yeah. people are just looking for a diversion so erm Yeah. I started up le let's a compile a famous lesbian list Yeah. and erm it started off with I suggested a few, you know, well know lesbians Mhm. and er then people were coming along and saying the woman in the sandwich shop she's not famous, yeah but she's a lesbian. How do you know? Mm. How do you know? Cos she's miserable. And laughing Oh right! and she says oh, he said oh yeah I feel really miserable today, I feel like a right lesbian! And he's Right. really laughing at them Mm. and then someone said er they were saying people like er Peter Stringfellow Mhm. which, I've never heard , no but we don't like them. Oh I see so it's still you know,i insults, you know, it's something, something to say about people you don't like. And the whole, we, we, we sort of Yeah, mhm. and then someone said Barbra Streisand and then someone said she can't be cos she's nice Mm and then I said yeah. I said what do you mean sh oh I didn't mean it like that I meant she can't be because I like her. I went ha Oh right. that makes it alright does it? Peo Yeah. people are sort of Well it's it, it's very much like, you know, a lot of things I've come across in everyday language where, where people, I don't know, er friends and relatives have found out that somebody's been gay, oh well I never thought it of him, he seemed like such a nice person as well Mm. you know it's almost as if it's like er you know a sort of negative thing to, to, to find out about somebody erm so erm yeah I mean I think I, so I think you'll, I think you'll, you'll of necessity have to try and do something which captures this, this sort of informal talk because as soon as people commit themselves to writing they're gonna be erm they're gonna be On the defensive. well not exactly g gonna be on the defensive because it's, I don't, it's, it's, it's no less, it's no less genuine, you know it's, it's part, it's, it's, it's a view that they can express in different circumstances, Yeah. it's like sort of a guy comes into lectures and, and, and he can be, particularly when talking about things like racism and disability, be quite liberal as it were, you know, and that kind of when you get him down the pub all on his own er a quite different repertoire comes out so er situational. Yes it's very situational, erm I think, as I think human beings are so erm so, so I think you, you're gonna have to So I've got to crack, go for the erm yeah go in the pub? yeah, yeah. Sort of erm if you erm tt I don't know, in some way succeed in, in noting or recording or, or something erm you know whatever it is that people are doing. Erm mm so how, how did we get on to that? Just remind me. Erm That was just I wa I wanted to get like some Yeah, yeah, mm. kind of pilot of how pe Mm. erm because a lot of this questionnaire Mm. is based on that people have got an i you know they, they sort of identify a gay person, I mean you, everybody Yeah. said I wouldn't like to be in a room with homosexuals Yeah. er a lot of the time, I was talking to someone at er Well in a sense how do you know you're not, as it were you know in many cases . Mm. Yeah well I was talking, I was talking to a friend and they said that, you know, there's some homophobic attacks and some of them just happen to occur because people are walking in a gay area Yeah. you know sort of ooh he's gotta be a poof so they er duff him up just cos he happens Mm yeah, yeah. to be walking past a pub Yeah. erm and I was just thinking about erm how people actually label people Yeah. So I mean maybe, maybe there's context, maybe there's the sort of situation oh this, this is an area where, you know, kind of this is an area that's full of poofs so he must be erm Mm. sometimes it may be to do with dress, demeanour, mannerisms, you know, kind of again you know people go for oh I don't know, I mean there's a conversation er I remember overhearing erm with some friends in Leicester and they, they go to motorbike rallies a lot and erm er they were describing an incident where they pitched their tent at a rally and some blokes came up and pitched their tent next to them and they were erm two blokes had arrived together on the same enormous immaculate motorbike and they'd got sort of matching leather outfits erm you know this is the sort of thing and really, you know, sort of cropped hair and enormous moustaches like yard brushes, or this is the story that was told to me, and, and then there was this, all this, all this chortling about why their moustaches were so lubricant, oh yes, er so, so luxurious er rather, I beg your pardon, and erm Yeah. you know kind of there's all this quips about sort of semen making your hair grow and all that kind of thing erm you know so erm it's, it's, it's one of these things that erm sort of erm kind of people, people s slip into on the basis of you know th er as far as I could tell there was no sort of firm evidence that these blokes were gay or heterosexual apart from judgments made on their demeanour and personal appearance erm you know but er you know it gave rise to a whole range of, you know, kind of supposedly humorous talk erm in that context erm so there's a whole range of things erm tt you know sort of talk and mannerisms and, and er, you know, kind of also gossip and suspicions about them, oh is he married if not does he have a girlfriend, if not ooh I wonder if he's gay, you know, kind of things that we understand about people's relationships feed into it so Mm. oh there's loads and loads of stuff erm tt which I think people can use flexibly in different circumstances, you know, depending on what information they have about somebody so Mm. I mean I've got a rough idea of what the things are Mm. Mm. I just wanted to actually, you know, Yeah. get it from, you know, what people do Yeah yeah certainly, erm I think that's er that's good, well if, if you can, if you can access it er in some way informally or, or, you know, it's probably un unlikely that you'd get too much stuff in writing as you say but, you know, er it could be very er productive and interesting erm tt erm can that sort of thing, particularly if you can get it in terms of quotes from people, you can sort of, you know, make a project look quite nice because it looks like if you do all this, you know, sort of stuff with the attitude scales it, it's er it gives you lots of nice numerical data but er Mm. particularly if you can supplement this and, and show how it erm fits into the way people discuss these issues, you know here's some real talk, here's some real quotes, you know, er stuff like that, it can look quite yeah, yeah, great. Yeah. I, I mean I want to actually put in some you know some real kind of, you know, rather Yeah, mm. than just Yeah. qualitative stuff as well. Yeah right, so er yeah so it's anyway it's it's difficult to know how you're gonna get it but er I wish you, I wish you luck in, in, in doing so. Erm tt Well I'm, I'm gonna use some of the er I mean I've got some of the er I made notes of some of the quotes I got from compiling Yeah. the famous lesbian list Yeah, yeah And I can use some of those Mm. about Barbra Streisand Yeah. but I probably can't use her will I be able to use names which Of course you can, yes, if it's, if it's Yeah. celebrities, erm if it's, you know, individuals at work erm you know er perhaps it's appropriate to use pseudonyms but erm you know with celebrities I mean people do projects about, you know, kind of soap stars and things like that and say Oh well yeah. say what people have said about them so, you know, it seems to be much the same sort of thing. Erm yeah let's see if there's anything else I, I remember thinking when I, when I had a look through this erm so er yeah erm oh great so Yeah, mm mm I mean there are some really ex extreme ones and Mm. I'll just have to omit there. Yeah I think, I think that's probably just as well because erm let's say you know it's being answered by somebody who's gay themselves or lesbian themselves or you know kind of is, is heterosexual but has sort of anti-homophobic sympathies Mm. I mean you don't want to kind of put them off too much erm Mm maybe you put people on their guard like Mm. the, the christian erm the born again christian council I mean some of the quotes I got from people Yeah. things like erm Mm. homosexuality will er will lead to an increase in murders and sadistic er Mm sex crimes. Yeah. Mm. I mean I, I Yeah. I couldn't use that. Yeah. I mean that's a, a thing that er I remember seeing a TV documentary and there was this bloke, I dunno if he was from the Terence Higgins Trust, I don't think so, but erm er anyway he was going on about this, this very thing that there's often the homophobic imagination er has this sort of slippage between you know, consenting adult activity and if you're gay, if you're homosexual then this probably means that you're also interested in seducing children, you're also interested in sado-masochistic activity er you're also interested in, you know, a whole variety of other, you know, things which But it's you know the sort of er, the sort of disgusting to the straight polity erm it's it's exactly the same Mm. Mm. thing if you think about is as it's used for drugs Yeah. you know if people wanna smoke a bit of pot then this is Yeah. obviously gonna lead to sort of drug addiction. Absolutely yes. Yes there's this sort of escalation model Yeah. which is very powerful in, in, in, mm You start off drinking then you smoke and you, yeah Yeah, mm. Yes, though it's interesting with, with, with things like er alcohol and tobacco because they're, well at least partly legal, erm you know often there's quite a, a crisp Manichaean division drawn between them and anything that's illegal erm you know so that you know kind of once, once you start smoking dope you're on the slippery slope to er you know kind of heroin and crack and all the rest of it crime. yes and, and crime of course, yes, absolutely, erm er so erm yeah er yeah and go in thinking about the er thinking about the questions erm I mean you didn't spot any that just look, you know, glaringly I didn't spot any that er that were glaringly, do bear in mind that I read this quite late last night after I got in from that, that meeting I went to Oh. so erm er I can't guarantee that I was totally compos mentis when I read it but er I'm Well I mean I'm, I'm just I'm just thinking, you know, mm I'm reasonably happy with them but I mean I know Mm, yeah. you've sort of had a lot of experience of constructing things like this so you, you know, probably, I mean if I'm gonna make an error I think it'd be a glaring one. Yeah, mm, yeah so erm I think mm yeah I think, I think with something like this, with questionnaires really the, the, the acid test is actually trying to administer them and then you see the problems very often Yeah. erm it's very difficult to spot what's going to go wrong in advance and some of the things you suspect are dodgy nobody has any trouble with, some of the things that you just didn't occur to you that would go wrong do go wrong, it's like, mm mm, yeah mm doing that that's why I thought I'd get, you know, a response out of people Yeah. Yeah but erm well a absolutely, erm but er The thing is I've omitted I've omitted things like sin Yeah. homosexuality is a sin cos I mean I think that's tapping into religion as much as to Yeah quite erm erm so er yeah I don't know what, I mean some people may, you know, may not even perceive you know the concept of sin so I got rid of that Mm. I also got rid of anything to, that mentioned morality Yeah. Yeah. cos I mean that's Fair enough. to sex behaviour anyway. Mm. Yeah so let's see if there's anything I remember. Erm mm yeah erm I'm gonna also sort of preface it with erm instructions to sort of say okay look Yeah. when the term homosexual is used it can be male, female specified. Right yeah, mhm, yeah yeah, fair enough, mhm. so to stop too much confusion. Yeah great and you can have a little spiel in there about sort of confidentiality and your views are important whatever they are and, and a little bit of blurb about filling in the scale and, you know, the usual sort of standard stuff Mm. erm so er tt I think the other thing that'll be nice if erm er given, if the first years are filling it in er in about a week and a half's time, if we could if you could try and bash some of the data in fairly rapidly so that, you know kind of before the end of term we can, you know, kind of give them a brief digest of how, what, what the results were Yeah. so that they, they're getting something back as well as Yeah I mean, yeah as er, as, as, as doing something erm but erm yeah it's certainly possible to er to do the first years. Erm yeah er mm yeah no I'm quite intrigued myself about this, this idea that erm somehow it's heterosexuals who trus who are trustworthy and that, you know, once you have a sexuality that's different from heterosexuality then you can't be trusted with children and you, you know you, you can't be trusted to er you know I don't know, run boys' clubs, you can't be trusted in, in a, you know, it's sort of, it's almost like, like erm er it, it almost flies in the face of evidence that the vast majority of sexual abuse that goes on of one sort or another is, is heterosexual, it's Mm. very often men abusing women and yet, you know, when you're looking at erm attitudes to gay and lesbian people it's often the case that they're, you know, somehow thought of as, as suspect. Mm. I think a lot of the time, I mean homosexuality has been perceived historically as like a, you know, if not an illness a weakness Mm mm. and er Yeah. people are told to go and have a cold shower and not give in to the weakness not give in to the weakness Yeah. so I think they recognize that everyone has homosexual Mm. thoughts Yeah. it's just the people who, who sort of gave in to them were, were sort of weaker than other people Yeah, yeah so if they gave in to that one temptation Mm they'll sort of give in to other temptations. Oh right yeah, yeah But it's like and, you know, they'll be tempted to put their fingers in the till and, and pilfer from work and, and, and you know, all sorts of other things as well because they're, they're morally suspect, don't have the fortitude. Mm. Tt yeah yeah erm yeah I mean it's interesting when you come to attitudes to parenthood erm I think that's quite an important issue because it does tap into a whole range of things about erm you know kind of er suspicions that somehow if gay or lesbian people raise children then the children'll either be, you know, sort of corrupted or converted themselves Mm. erm you know never mind that most children who are beaten or abused or die at their, the hands of their parents er you know, do so at the hands of their heterosexual parents Mm. erm you know it's still er you know, considered problematic. Mm. Mm. version of most gay people come from heterosexual homes anyway, so Absolutely yeah and er you know kind of er it's absolutely impossible to, to determine exactly what it is that's, that's, you know, propelling people's sexuality isn't it? I, I mean You know, it's still I mean I yeah I included those because I thought a lot of pe even the sort of most Mm. right on people Yeah. are gonna have problems where children are concerned parenthood. Yes I think there's some, yeah yeah I, I think there's, that's one of the, the areas where er as it were attitudes are most small C conservative, that er sort of liberal heterosexuals whom I know er you know are often quite suspicious of that. Erm And I usually say well once, once, once gay and lesbian people start beating their kids like heterosexuals I'll, I'll agree with you but erm erm tt so er mm I mean I know that there, there were Mm. I mean I did read somewhere there were some studies done Mm. er on the American sort of er gay Mm. couples that have adopted Yeah. and the children were sort of actually more, you know, Mm. psychologically bal well balanced you know Yeah yeah mm. as, as they define it Yeah. than the sort of the, a controlled Well I think I think growing up with gay or lesbian parents I think, I think could be a very mind broadening experience for people it will certainly teach you about social life in a, in a lot of different ways that er Mm. people in heterosexual families wouldn't find out about erm and it teaches you ways of dealing with prejudice and discrimination, on the assumption that you, you, you do learn to deal with them, and er Mm. all sorts of stuff like that. Yeah erm oh well looks like we're nearly drifting towards the end, again as I, as I say I'm, I'm, I'm fairly, pretty happy with the questions erm you know er going back to what I was saying earlier I was just thinking that some of them might be more f easily phrased as non directional statements and you have the, you know, kind of have the words in the scales yeah right, good, so yeah Yeah I mean I'm definitely gonna put some words I think that erm as regards correlating things together and bunging them into the same factor analysis model and stuff like that er even if the questions are a bit different I think you can still do that legitimately because it's still sort of expressing the strength of opinion on some sort of scale erm so I don't see that that'll er interfere with the ambitions you've got as regards the data erm so er Mm. anyway I'm afraid I haven't sort of scribbled anything on that but you know kind of that's er No that's quite good enough, that's good. you know just, just thoughts I had as I was reading through it as best I can remember them so er mm But I mean this one I'm, I've got I, I would feel comfortable knowing that I, I was attracted to Yeah. so I put if I was attracted to my Er how, how or something like how would, how would you feel if you felt attracted to a member of your own sex or something yeah, yeah. Oh you'd you'd ask it in the form of a question? And you can bung, you can bung some bipolar adjectives underneath it of one sort or another er So I mean questions as opposed to statements. Er yeah, yeah, yeah erm Okay that's great. I know when, when invented scales back in the early thirties er typically they were declarative statements which people had to agree or disagree with erm but er I think perhaps more recently people have gone more for things that are a bit like how would you feel, what do you think type statements erm so er Mm. erm Yeah I think that'd break it up and I think The erm mm it'd be a bit boring with just the agree or disagree. Yeah, fair enough, so Right that's great. okay right so best of luck to you anyway if you okay sort of get that er sort of er get a, a neat copy run off we might be able to get it down for repro to reprographics in time for er Tuesday week with a bit of luck That should be no problem at all. Yeah good. Okay cheers, thanks a lot for your help. Okay? Cheers. Oh hello. Ah hello erm do come in. Yeah right oh well, now then now I'm afraid erm I'm doing a project for the British National Corpus which involves er trying to record everyday conversations so I've, I've got a microphone on, I hope you don't mind. Er Oh well never mind erm but, but, you know, informal consent and all that kind of thing so er right anyway erm so er how's it going? Well I've been told, well I I was gonna come and see you anyway Yeah. I'm a bit behind in my coursework and whatever Yeah. well, I'm a bit behind full stop. Yeah. So er Just to Mm. So what s what, well let let's get on to something a bit more s as it were specific, I mean what sort of things are you, are you behind with and having difficulty with then? Erm well I'm still on stuff from last term. Right. Yeah. Which Er well it's just I'm ha it's not that I'm having more difficulty with one thing than another, it's just that I haven't, I didn't get round to doing them. Yeah. Yeah erm is that gonna be a problem that's gonna recur in the future do you think? Or do you Erm do you think you'll be able to get sorted well to be honest Yeah. I find it quite difficult like Yeah. everything. Ah right. Yeah. Erm are there any specific areas of difficulty like you know sort of things like statistics, things like, you know, erm I dunno, other bits and pieces that er you know give you particular problems? Er subject itself Yeah erm I'd just don't know how to go with it, I dunno what to do. yeah erm I'm I'm alright on stats Yeah. It's what, what were you doing before you came here? Was it, was it like A levels or er Erm well I I'm a mature student Oh right. but I've had a few years out Yeah. but er er Yeah. you know. I think that's not uncommon actually if you, when you get people who've, who've been away from the education system for a f a few years and I think it's almost like mature students do have more anxiety than people who come straight from school generally speaking I think erm Mm. you know more likely to worry about work, more likely to feel that they're, they're not quite coping, more likely to feel erm you know that, that somehow everybody else is getting on with it and, and, and, and they can't, I mean that's just, you know, going from what people have told me so so it's more, it's more, oh right Yeah. but sometimes actually it's a more, you know, kind of it's, it's, it's not really because they've got problems but it's just because they, they're, they're, they're sort of more diligent and more, you know, more motivated but erm yeah getting on to What more motivated? Well in some cases, in some cases it is, I'm not saying every time but you know I mean sometimes it is erm so, I mean is there anything that you think, you know, we could change or you could change to, to like improve the situation? So, you know, is there anything, is it about the way you work, is it about the way the course is taught, is it about you know sort of reassurance and pastoral type stuff, is it about, you know, what? All of them I think but seriously All of them. Er mm it's that erm erm originally I couldn't get like the motivation Yeah. and I had trouble like er cos I come from like, I've got like science Mhm. and physics and all that sort of stuff I mean I Yeah, yeah. haven't written an essay for like a Yeah. I mean you're talking like I mean years, I mean really it's Mm. I can't remember the last essay I wrote Yeah. and I really have problems Yeah. with that sort of thing Mm. and er I just haven't it's like erm I just haven't put the time in Mm. I just haven't been able to motivate myself to put the time in Yeah. I've ch that's changing a bit now cos erm Mm. yeah I'm ge as I'm getting into the course like I've gotta realize that I've gotta do it but Yeah. er it's just not knowing where to go with it Mm. and er the stuff that I write is just rubbish, basically. Yeah. You know what I mean? Erm well I mean that's the you know one of, one of the things that er a lot of people contend with. I mean some people adopt the approach of trying to d do it all in about two hours just before the deadline so they don't have time to feel self critical erm I think perhaps if you can, you know, rather than, rather than trying to do it all at once I mean the business of, of going through successive drafts of things and gradually getting them better and better, I mean the first drafts of things that I write are, are usually just scribbles on the back of a piece of paper that's, with something else on the front Yeah. they're usually just notes, they're usually ill formed and not very well backed up and ill thought out and then gradually you know you sort of go through it again and you can fit more detail in Yeah. and gradually you can go through it again and sort of fit the references in and, you know, so gradually, and then, then you find it's too big and then you sort of go through it again and try and knock some stuff out so Yeah. I mean often actually producing pieces of writing is, is, is quite a, you know, sort of long drawn out sort of er iterative process I suppose in, in mathematical terms erm you know you kind of go through it again and again erm I mean that's one thing you ca but obviously that's quite time consuming er Yeah. so er erm and don't forget in the first year all you've got to do is pass Yeah erm it's just a qualifying year, yeah well everybody says that but you know it's worth bearing in mind that you've Yeah. just gotta put something in that in the coursework and the exams that sort of gets you over the forty percent barrier and in psychology it's not that difficult to sort of waffle your way up to forty percent erm without wishing ma to make it sound too easy erm it's not like my brother did in his physics degree where he sort of ended up getting twelve percent overall in his second year and then took the year again and got six percent erm that's very difficult to do in psychology erm so er mm but, you know, so er given that it's a sort of fairly discursive thing it's, it's, you know, it's probably, in some ways it's probably less difficult than you think. Erm yes Yeah but I mean I think the stuff, the stuff that I've written is like rubbish, it's like I dunno Yeah. it sounds like something you get on Mm. you know like television progra you know the really sort of Oh right, yeah. chatty type stuff? Mm. I just ca I just I've never done psychology before you see and so it's like erm Yeah, yeah. there's no, there's no er sources to it and I mean it's just like Yeah, mm. Yeah I know it's well again, you know, kind of once you can see, once you can see what's wrong with it rather than just sort of, you know, screwing it up and throwing it away, you know kind of if you can use that as a basis for, for, you know, kind of putting more of the stuff in that makes it look a bit more academic Yeah. erm you know kind of er call that a first draft and then sort , you know, sort of try and sort of go through the books again and stick a few references in to back up the points you've made so you can see it relates to other people's evidence erm trying to go through it again and knock out the well you know what I mean kind of statements and, and, you know, you can gradually sort of make the er grad you know sort of but again it's, it's, it's one of these processes that I find, you know, you need to go through again and again and again to sort of get it er get it together erm so erm What shall I do about the stuff that I haven't done? Erm well I'll if you could, if you could do me a list of, of what you've, what you've missed so far so we know where we are as it were erm what er mm I need two on Mm. I need two by the end of the term. Yeah whi which, which and which two I did the erm tt er what's it called? Erm Well there's that tutorial essay thing possibly Yeah I did that one Yeah and I did the erm the one about the information crisis. Whose tutor group where you in? Erm Mr . Oh right. Have you had that back yet or er No. No. Oh right well I'll erm er see er I'll, I'll see if I can catch Ian and, and, and see what, see what's happened to it It's bullshit. Oh right oh well, not to worry but mm yeah but you know I mean cos it was, it was bad actually I mean I actually kind of if you do, if you do manage to get some, some feedback on some of the stuff you've done so far it may turn out that it wasn't as bad as all that, you know Yeah. it may turn out that it hasn't failed miserably but, you know, there may be various ways in which you could improve it which you might, you know, if you're lucky he might have sort of written on, round the sides and round the edges and erm that's you know kind of one of the things that you can build on erm you know a lot of you know kind of build on, build on the criticism as it were and build on the things that people say could improve it erm Yeah. and er you know I think coming to a, a university is a thing that you know like it's a very sort of novel experience for a lot of people and you know certainly when I started the human psych course here, you know about twelve, thirteen years ago erm you know I didn't know what on earth was, was requ required and I agonized over work for quite, quite a long time and er Mm. you know it's not too uncommon but you know it's just a matter of I don't know what it is though it's kind of ge getting something in that er you know sort of satisfies the requirements of the course and most people gradually the hang of it, you know I think I will. What are you supposed to what are you supposed to do with things like erm you get ess you get lectures Mhm. okay and then erm it's, it's like like some lecturers give you like a set of notes Mm. Mhm. and some lecturers give you a set of references Yeah. so and you just end up with a list of names or something like that Mhm. and er are you supposed to go back and like research it yourself or Well erm in some ways I mean what we're doing in, in social say, most of that you can pick up out of the textbook where it's discussed in, in rather, slightly more detail and I stick in, you know, different kinds of examples and things like that to try and propel it along and make it a little bit different to the book erm with some of the other things, I mean for example if you erm get stuff off, I don't know, for example people like Ian erm Yeah. erm with him I mean he doesn't tend to give handouts but you know kind of if you write ever if you succeed in, in, in taking fairly good notes erm they're very often good enough to like survive on erm Yeah. er if it's people give you things like reference lists and reading lists, I mean sometimes that's the most confusing thing to be given because you don't know, I used to think you were supposed to read everything on them er and I actually tried doing that once or twice and I couldn't find stuff in Aston library so I ran up the er town library and went to Birmingham University library and then I got back the next week and I realized that I was about the only person who'd actually done that and other people hadn't Yeah. and erm you know it was erm er Too busy. yeah, absolutely, erm I think partly those things are to in when people pump out loads and loads of references, partly it's to indicate which studies the ideas, information, evidence have come from Yeah. so they're not just making it up out of their heads, it actually, you know, somebody really did a study on this, somebody really put this argument forward erm er partly it's to, I mean some of the things on those things you can't easily get in Aston library anyway, some of the things erm er particularly if they're references to general, you know, sort of, you know, general bits of the, you know, whatever textbook they seem to be using mostly erm Yeah. you know that's the sort of thing you might want to read as, as kind of background supplementary material and particularly I find it boring to Oh right erm but er well you can, you can get away without, without buying stuff erm I mean as I, as I say some people do end up sharing erm some people do end up, not that there's very much library stock very often but, you know, some people do I've noticed that I couldn't get any of the erm Mm. course books like I think, I can't afford to buy them then Yeah. er you have to use other books Yeah. Erm again you know with the subject matter, provided you can find stuff that does tend to cover the same sort of s topics erm it doesn't really the course is so like geared to like one textbook, you know Mm. most of the time Yeah. and I, I can't get hold of that textbook and then, and not knowing psychology before Mm. you end up with like all these books and they've got a different, different sort of er perspective on it and they've got Mm. Yeah. and they go into it in like different depths or Mhm. and, and you just end up with tt you don't, you can't follow it Yeah, yeah. and I, they do a bit and then another one, you have to go into another textbook Yeah. and er it's just like, I just lose it totally. Yeah. Mm. Yeah I, I suppose it is a tt it is a bit of a problem erm particularly for some of the stuff which you know it, it tends not to be dealt with very, very deeply in sort of general textbooks like some, you know, erm I think things like er some of the, you know some, some of the stuff that erm ah for example er people like Rob do erm Yeah. it's difficult to access that in general textbooks because it's often quite specialized Yeah erm some of the stuff that we end up doing in the second and final year you don't easily access through general textbooks because it's quite specialist Yeah. erm some of the stuff that you might be doing in things like perception and stuff like that erm Perce yeah perception yeah it might be, I don't know, I think usually Roy does that but I think Dave's doing it this year or something erm er that tends to be, that tended to be something that I had difficulty with as a student because again you couldn't just sort of find one book that, that covered the lecture course Yeah. erm You have to go to like ten different Yeah yeah and most of the good ones are gone and it's like the nineteen thirty Yeah. ones left in the library. Right yeah erm so that can be, that can be a bit awkward but still some of the older stuff can give you a bit of a grounding in, in, in, in, in, in what it's about if you can find anything relevant and sometimes you've just got to sort of wander round the library and pick things up off the shelves like at random and see, see if you can find something in the index or find something in the contents pages that sort of vaguely coincides with what the you know what's been talked about in the class that week erm sometimes if you keep looking you might actually be dead lucky and find one of the recommended books has actually come back in erm you may find that you've got to be a bit flexible about that because, you know, if a topic's dealt with in November you may not get a chance to see the book until you know kind of, I don't know, February or something, you know I mean so it, it sometimes does mean you've got to do the reading like a bit displaced from the from the classes Right. erm I know it, I know it, I know it's, yeah mm I, I know it's a, I know it's a problem with big, with big classes and, and, and few resources erm so er I've got few resources, I just can't afford to buy the books that's the Yeah, yeah that's the thing. so erm I'm just so behind I can't believe it, it's like Yeah. all of the first term went ah just like that Yeah. cos I was working as well that term. Mm. Are you, are you self funding or er Yeah oh right so it's like I'm working like yeah that makes it difficult as well God knows how many, although I'm not working any more I've lost the job but Yeah. I'm looking for another one but Yeah. so only like, I've had the last week off Mm. and I've er done an essay Mhm. but I can't afford to go on like that you see Yeah. and I don't know how I'm gonna survive Mm. I've got all the Yeah. other studying as well as the work to do. Yeah erm well that can, that can be difficult erm I know er when er when Dave did his psychology degree here erm he started out as an electrical engineer and he got interested Yeah. in psychology and chucked in electrical engineering and started a psychology course and he had to work at the same time as he studied for some of that time Yeah. and I don't know how he managed to fit it in er but some people manage it erm it means that sometimes you, you know, you're very time limited on, on, on writing things and you don't put in something that you feel does justice to yourself, you know, you put in what you think of as crap and, and you know mm I'm just not, I'm not bothering with coursework Mm. cos I mean there's loads of Mm. like everyone like you talk to someone and they're like throwing up all the technical information Mm. sort of jargon and you think well it's like cos er er they're Yeah. all starting to get into the Mm. sort of knowing what it's about now Yeah. even the people that didn't know before did the A level and that cos like a lot of A level Mm. but the people that like are new are starting to sort of oh, you know Yeah. oh that's the work of er Oh yeah they can say the say the, say the names and the dates and the, yeah, mm Yeah and I'm thinking well yeah. I'm gonna have to do some work on this and then erm Yeah. when it just comes down to it and I just don't know where to start Mm. it's like last term I didn't get anything and it was like Mm. I got very little notes and it's Mm. I just need like Yeah. you know is there somewhere that I can get the subjects that I need in, in each Yeah. lecture just like Well erm and all that? not, not very easily because there's different things apply to different courses like some things have got quite a lot of sort of documentation and handout materials some things Yeah. haven't erm er and erm you know some things you, you know there's the sort of one particular textbook that covers most of what we talk about in the classes, some things there isn't Yeah. erm so I mean for example with something like statistics that covers different techniques and activities from, you know, different books erm something like erm something like social most of it comes out of that which is a thing we did because people were experiencing difficulty with it so we thought well right we'll, we'll, we'll sort of anchor the syllabus mostly to, you know, one particular book erm so different, different staff use different techniques, some people ha have drawn on a whole variety of things and, and, and some people have just drawn on one erm I think the main priority is to try and do some coursework though in your case erm You reckon? Yeah, if there's still stuff outstanding just so you erm Well there's only one Mm. I've done one Mm. but it's like er it's the one for Guy about memories and Oh right, yeah. it's a bit erm it's awful but erm Mm. I dunno whether, should I go and see him or hand it in or what? Well I'll tell you what if you want to yeah, if you, if you want, well do, do have a word with him if you possible can erm Yeah. er I think, I know he's not around very much at the moment because he's supposed to be on sabbatical but, you know, erm do Oh yeah. do, do let him know er because if we if we sort of know you know if, if, if a, if an essay just comes in off somebody we've never met or something like that Yeah. and it comes in late we're, we, it doesn't it ins it doesn't make us very sympathetic but you know if, if, if, if people know who you are and, you know, you know they know you've ha they've had a conversation with you then it, it makes it easier Mm. erm you know even if it does come in late so we can say oh yes I remember this person sort of thing, you know stuff like that. How about, how about coursework which isn't actually due in yet like stuff for the end of this term or the beginning of next, I mean do you reckon you'll be able to have a, have a stab at that some time? I haven't started I haven't started Yeah. Yeah I'll give that try but I've got this other Yeah. this practical for Dave in from last term Right. that's that's like Yeah well that is. as I say if you could erm if you could some time soon drop a note off in my tray about, you know, kind of what exactly you've got outstanding so I can go round and see the erm see the people concerned and, and say that you've been to just the one thing Well mm well you, you can but it'll be nice to, it will be nice to have something, something, you know, kind of some sort of list we can, we can refer to and, and say oh yes oh great he's handed that one in now and, and sort of knock it off because I know they do keep records in the office but, you know just, just something so, so we know where you are erm and it also kind of er will perhaps help concentrate the mind on what you need to get done erm so er I know there's a and there's also practical is, is Mm. I'm just Yeah now that's, that's probably worth mentioning to Dave because I think one of the things he was talking about doing was instead of one of the tests or something making people hand in either some sort of lab book or some sort of record of the practical so far this term erm Yeah I hate practicals. Yeah. So erm that's, if you're, if you're getting behind on that it's worth trying to do something about it soonish before you get too far behind to manage to catch up Yeah. erm because that's like a continuous thing erm with with some other stuff, if it's just like essays or projects due in at the end of this term or beginning of next, you know get, get the light stuff out of the way first erm and try you may find it easier if you, if you, what I used to do was sort of try and, you know, pace it out a little bit and not try and write an essay all at once because I found that very difficult to do but if you just sort of write a paragraph and do, do something else for a bit and you know kind of write another paragraph a bit later on in the day and, and, you know, kind of erm you know work, you know don't, don't try and write an essay all in one evening but try and sort of, you know, if you've managed to spread it out over the course of a few days so that you don't have to do too much at once I mean it's difficult to concentrate on one thing just so behind on the coursework Mm. Yeah. and take the notes and that Mm. cos erm I just need to do some work on that, I've still got last term's work and everything, I just Yeah. you know what I mean? Well it is possible, it is possible because erm you know we're not necessarily dealing with anything that's horrendously difficult this year erm Yeah. I think usually most people find the second year more intensive, there's more work to do Yeah. and the final year I think there's sort of less on the timetable but people tend to do more work for it and do a project as well but in the, in the first year erm you know it's not that difficult to, to pass it erm er and there are always the, the, the referred papers in September so if you're, if you're keen to well you know if, I mean if you're keen to keep on the course but just having a few difficulties Yeah then you know it's probably it's probably possible possible yeah but erm you know I mean some people do actually get total, totally pissed off with the university and the course and everything and, and decide to chuck it in, you know, er in which case I've done that before though. Mm. Oh right. Where did you, where did you, where were you before? Erm I was at Manchester doing physics. Oh right, mm. And I couldn't stand physics, I just sort of Yeah I think that's what happened to my brother actually. Yeah can happen. Yeah. So Mm. So I can't really er but I like this course as well, Mm yeah oh well if you find, you know, there's anything you like about it or anything interesting in it that does help because it, you know, it certainly makes it a lot easier to learn things, take information in, revise things erm whatever. I do think it's interesting but I just er Mm. it's like say, say I, say I fin say I go from here now and I Mm. Mm. I think and I think well I've got this one practical to do and I've got erm Yeah. Yeah. which I can get done and then I've got Mm. all this coursework that I, all this er lecture stuff that I'm behind on, lots of it Yeah. and I don't really know where to start Yeah. to be honest I don't Yeah erm tt well if I was you I'd probably try and, and keep up to date with the stuff that's happening now Yeah. and then gradually try and re don't, don't spend too much time trying to reconstruct the past because that, you know, you just get further and further behind with the present stuff so you know kind of try and at least make sure that, you know, maybe if you get a job you won't be able to go to all the classes but at least make sure you, you are in contact with somebody who has that you can get notes off every time, you know, that erm oh hello Hi can I come to hello can you to see you later? Erm how much later? Are you very busy? Well Erm let's see er whenever you're free er let's see, it will be this afternoon some time, erm Yeah that's fine. if you could try me about sort of some time between three and four Okay. I should think because I'm doing something with some students shortly and then erm there's somebody coming to see me at two so er Right I'll come up then. Thanks. Okay right. So yeah erm so erm tt er yeah so oh that reminds me I think I may have left something in the lecture theatre I was in this morning, oh my God it was a letter from somebody yes I have, oh shit! Oh dear. Erm do you mind if I leave you for a second? I'll just nip back and see if I can get the thing. Erm Oh excuse me. people right thank you Hello. Hello. Phew, just had to burst into somebody else's class and get my er thing back. Right, yeah so erm you know I mean that's probably the best thing to do if you try and, try and at least keep up to date with the rest of this term and er you know not er make sure, even if you haven't been to a class at least you know what went, went on there from somebody Yeah. erm so er Right. yeah I think that's probably the best thing and gradually the past you've missed might start fitting into place as it were you know if you, if you keep up with the present, I think that's probably the best thing so er and, you know, er I know it's no comfort but these things take time, you know it takes time to get socialized into something and it takes time to get used to a way of working. Yeah well I mean most people do, I mean Yeah I think I mean I will but yeah, so er so I've gotta go and see someone else, who else should I see about this? Well er if I was you if you're, if you're missing out on stuff from, from Guy try and see Guy, if you're missing out on stuff from Dave try and see Dave Yeah. erm if erm have you seen, seen Ian since those tutorials at all? No. Well you might want to go and ask him er about it because he'll be presumably your, your, your personal tutor as well so erm you may be able to get some more er you know, some, some, something off him you know kind of what he thought of your essay or something like that Yeah. because I haven't seen any of your written work so I can't really sort of erm er dispense any advice yet er Okay. so erm er or indeed it may be if, if you ask him or if you ask in the general office it may of erm tt it may have it may have been marked by now and so er Could be. you know er Right. but er anyway as I say see, see, see the people who, whose work you're late with so er So where can I find Guy then? Guy lives on the sixth floor in let me see, it's on the it's if, if you're going along the corridor it's just past the final year notice boards, it does have a number, I've forgotten which one it is but it's on the right hand side. Dave is further down the sixth floor corridor, it's almost directly under this room Aha. and it's er the end on the left hand side if you go in there's like a little sort of little sort of lobby and, and Dave's is the little room sort of straight ahead of you, it's about down there somewhere Yeah. as the, as the woodworm crawls I suppose erm so erm yeah so, so you know kind of get in touch with the people whose work you've missed and, and er, you know, er so at least they, when it, you know, when it does arrive they'll know what the circumstances are so er Do you actually fail the year if you don't hand in a piece of work? Erm let's see, usually what happens is there's an exam board in June after people have hopefully done all their coursework and, and done their exams and then we decide what to do with the people er you know who've failed something or there's stuff missing Mm. erm usually if it's just one or two things people are offered the opportunity to submit a piece of work over the summer Aha. if it's just like one exam or two exams that they've failed or they've been ill for or they've missed or something they're offered the opportunity to sit those in September then we have another exam board in September Yeah. and see what the situation is then. Usually most of the people who've had coursework and exams to do over the1561 Yeah erm then er then, then what do we do? Erm then we wonder whether to offer people the chance of, you know, offer them a resit year or whether we want to ask them to withdraw asking people to withdraw is very rare actually, I haven't seen that done very often Oh God. so er usually people, people do, people do leave but it's usually because they, they, they're they're sick of it or you know they, they want Oh right. to do something else elsewhere or they want to transfer to transport management or something like that as people do sometimes That's an idea. Yeah. Er yeah and I think people in the first term are quite attracted to it because it doesn't seem to have much on the timetable erm What transport management? transport management, yeah, erm anyway erm so well if you, if you can well if you can give me a list of, of what's outstanding, if you can see Dave and you can see Guy Yeah. er for the time being and if you ask Dave about this thing you've missed and also about what this business about erm cos he has explained it to me but I'm not quite sure about it, this business of keeping a, a sort of l record of all the practicals for this term Yeah. cos if you've missed the first couple of weeks' worth or so erm You only have to do eight out of ten. Oh eight out of ten, so there's still, there's still time to er still time to redeem yourself, good Yeah that's no problem. Okay. Oh well you already know about that in that case erm I know what I've gotta do but it's just doing it Yeah, yeah, yeah so er erm when do you want, where do you want me to put this list then? Er well if you look in the general office erm just in on the sixth floor yeah erm it's, there's a load of plastic trays erm Right. for leaving messages for staff and stuff like that, mine's the Will you know who I am? er mine's the top one it says erm well I'll, I'll reme I'll rem I'll, yeah, well it just says on it and it's the, it's the top one on the left hand side as you're facing them Okay. it's the one nearest the door So what you just want my name and Your, your name and what you're missing, yeah. Alright no problem. So er so we can er we can see where we are as it were Alright then Right okay well mm, yeah Jenny's, Jenny's quite good about that sort of thing, she seems to be er be quite on the ball about who's handed in what erm Yeah she does yeah but er yeah there, there's a gre there's a great er it's a great shame actually erm we may not have Jenny for very much longer, they may not renew her contract which will be a big shame. Have to get a petition up or something. Yeah erm I dunno if it would do much good actually but er yeah but er no she, she's, she's quite good about you know sort of erm you know kind of keeping an eye on students and, and stuff like that, anyway er so if you could right see you see you again Er right see you soon then. Bye. Hello tape recorder, you seemed to go off there for a while, I'm just checking that you're still working again, thanks very much. So that's why I'm going around with a little machine and a microphone on and they're trying to get some record of, of what It's best to explain it you know. yeah sort of Eng er how English is spoken sort of around er in different, you know, circumstances in private places and universities and television and all sorts of things like that. A lot of things and don't knows Yeah. with me so Mm. Right. Yeah. Okay? What it was it's from this book really Mhm. which was this study Mm. here which I've read about, it's got erm articles about the blind, dreams of the blind Oh yeah? now what, what it actually was was er some a systematic set of questions about the natural experience of people prone to auditory and visual images, number of people in Yeah. now I've looked it up, that's supposed to actually be in our library Yeah. but it's not now I've Mhm. left a note for a while now them Is, mm to try and locate it but er what er It's the is it a book or a journal? no it's a journal, it's the Erm erm disease, mental disease or something well is it er there's a thing about general nervous and mental dis general nervous and mental disease, that's the one, yeah. Yeah Oh right. It's one of seventy which is supposedly the first one they've got Mm. there but Oh right erm well often the coverage, even when they think they've got it, is not terribly good Mm. erm for some reason certain issues don't seem to have appeared in the first place No. or if they have people have nicked them and, and Right. all sorts of other things. Yeah. It's er it's not that obscure er have you checked Birmingham University library or anything like that? It might be worth a, a bit of bus riding around I haven't yet no, no cos, yeah I was and you might be able to get it erm me and Gareth wanna go over there and you know I'll Oh yes, yes. and he wants to get it for his disability project to see if he can get Oh right so, mhm you know I think we're gonna take a trip over anyway so Yeah, yeah excellent, good, so you might be able to find some more stuff. Right erm questionnaire, I've got in contact with the Institute again Yeah? erm with these people Mhm. erm she said she thought everything would be okay apart from partial blind due to accident after teenage years cos it's basically it's actually a college Mhm. which she said they do have people who don't progress much staying on Yeah. but on the whole it's like Yeah. you know sixteen to mostly Yeah. sixteen to twenty one year olds Mhm. so erm So er see talk I'm talking about twenty five okay so it, yeah it looks like quite a reasonable number of people possibly Yeah. yeah? Good. Yeah. Oh and she's just said you know get 'em a questionnaire done, that was really what was Yeah yeah fine. you know wanted to get with you really. Yes erm Erm right yeah this was just asking myself really and for you Mhm. erm right in the book and other ones I've read, cos I've also got, well I've got quite a few journals with Yeah, yeah, good. with the various ones so erm some of them done like open ended, see what I was wondering was, where, I wrote this organized here Yeah. Yeah it was analyzing it erm whether I wanted to do general questions on general dreams that A Mm. tell me how their dreams are formed Yeah. or which is one which they've done in there, is take a specific dream which they've had which is vivid to them Mhm. and describe with all feelings and everything Yeah and trying to Mm. as opposed to as prompting questions to ask Yeah. about analysis or me giving them the dream and I have to sort of like get out for myself what Yeah. how they do it. Well I mean you could do a bit of both, I don't see why you can't sort of start out with some general stuff about whether That's what, that's what I was thinking, that's what I was thinking of doing, yeah. they actually experience dreams at all Yeah. you know because some people claim not to, blind and sighted, er you know and then, then maybe you can sort of say well, you know, what sort of things do you see, what sort of things do you feel and then get on to something specific Mm. you know, can you think of one you might've had last night or one that you particularly remember or something like that Yeah. They've had some and try and incredible dreams oh right so you actually er mm. it's really funny, yeah I, I went over there erm it was really to meet the woman but I ended up erm she said do you wanna spend the afternoon with them Yeah. so they had like an hour break so I spent in a room . See the trouble, the trouble which I found was it was difficult trying, you know, it's not about dream con you know it's not about Mm. dream meaning and Yeah. they were sort of like you know interested in what I you know you see what I mean? It was difficult Oh yeah, so yeah, absolutely yes there's that er whenever anything's to do with dreaming Yeah. there's that suspicion that you're trying to Yeah. er access what their personality's all about, you know they, mm There's, there's, there's one one bloke had a erm speaking, a dog which spoke to them which gave them the Oh yeah? for the next day Mm. races oh I mean you know Yeah . they're, they're quite Yeah. erm Were the dog's tips any good or er did it turn out He said he could never remember them Oh right. he says he can never remember the names, it's the times that er Mm. Yeah er he's not a millionaire yet. No so perhaps not, mm. Oh perhaps, perhaps he, perhaps he has the knowledge but has difficulty in er navigating his way to the betting shop to to do anything about it. Anyway erm Right I've results see this is Mm. this is really what I'm Yeah. comparison of subjects within groups and between groups I thought that's Yeah, mm. like a typical analysis variance Well yeah it cer it certainly But it certainly can be. Erm it depends on erm it depends on what you ask them though er if you get erm excuse me if you get er I'm just trying not to ripple the fabric just yet erm sorry that's going on the tape recorder isn't it? Never mind. erm if you it depends on what you do I mean if you're generating quantitative material, you know, if you get some sort of scale ratings of things like sort of estimates of how, how frequently they dream That's exactly why I wanted that because they've done estimates of erm yeah so they've actually got a, a standard questionnaire in this paper that you can't find yet? Mm. Mm. Right good. Erm you know all feelings of how vivid they are on average or feelings about how you know any,anyth anything you can write a question about that, that you can put on a scale of some sort Yeah. that you can try and get them to say well is that sort of moderately vivid or very vivid or very very vivid or absolutely compelling just like real life or erm I, I don't know what, what, what you'd be able to do erm it's obviously gotta be something that you can present orally Yeah. er but erm that kind of thing where you can sort of scale the responses in some way or say how many times a week or say how many times in the last year or how many times since Christmas or something erm fine yeah you can do, you can do stats on that, you can hopefully find P less than point O five etcetera etcetera between the different groups Mm. you can also erm maybe try and correlate things like, oh I don't know, how frequently they came, claim to dream with how much they rate their enjoyment of dreams on average or, you know, all these kinds of things are possible Mm. erm equally if you can't get any significant differences between the five different groups of five people you can try and split the stuff up, once you've got the data you can try and split it up in other ways, divide them into two groups and see Yeah. if you know there are any other kinds of differences. Mm. with,wi is Yeah sorry yeah. obviously with the questionnaire I'm going, I wanna get, like you said, a lot of results where I can split them up, you know Yeah. it's really getting the questionnaire in a good format that's what Yeah, mm. I'm worried about cos basically it leads on I know Yeah. you know talking to five, you know, people who've done their projects, they've said some of the trouble going out Yeah. you know was that they'd got results which they couldn't sort of like apply Mm. so I'm trying to do it Yeah. you know, look at the results and to effectively try and to sort of like estimate them. Yeah, yeah. Mm yeah. The poor old printer seems to have broken, it won't, it won't it won't make the paper lie down flat when er when it's finished. Yeah that's just an updated list of, of project people because some people have changed their titles and, and some people have There's some interesting titles isn't there? Yeah. I'm really, I was really impressed Mm. So erm yeah so I don't know in, in, in some ways what the questionnaire actually ends up looking like is, is, is up to you, I mean you've already spoken to some of these people and spoken to some of the organizations involved Yeah. and, and stuff like that so I mean in a sense you're by now a fairly good judge of the way to go about this sort of thing, you're a fairly good judge of what sort of things are important, perhaps the way in which people describe stuff and, and, you know, words, concepts, vocabularies erm all that kind of thing which obviously it helps if your questionnaire fits in with Yeah. erm so erm I don't know it's just down to generating some questions. Mm. I mean you may want to er for example, you know in some ways some of the responses may fit in quite nicely as a point on a scale or something like that, you may have some, you know, be able to in fact I advise you to come up with a fair number of quantitative type questions Right. where you, you get a scale response to them and we can do stats on but equally, if you get people to describe their most recent dream or describe their most erm, you know, compelling dream or, you know, a good one that they've had in the last year or something like that, you may want to try and get that on tape or something like that erm if possible, yeah. Yeah I was wondering about using tape actually. I'm afraid I, I've only got one spare tape recorder and I've lent it to somebody already erm Yeah yeah so mm I've got one erm so er it's sometimes possible to borrow from the university but they usually, they usually make it very difficult for one so er oh thanks, erm so erm anyway because with a thing like people's accounts of dreams you may want to sort of go back and look at them, you know, sort of how people have expressed them in their own words, they may have er you know produced some nice interesting quotes or something like that Mm. you know to er Yeah. er you know express the dream in or express their feelings about it. Well it's very, it's really interesting actually I had Yeah mm. a brilliant afternoon, it was Yeah, good. it was really exciting. Yeah Erm so er other things to right Mm. I've got, in the introduction Mm. er do you think it should be in the form of like a erm you know abstract introduction method er yeah Yeah I think that's usually the safest thing to go for with these things Right. however you've done the inve investigation, it looks like you've already spotted some literature of various kinds Mhm. articles, books and stuff like that which talk about this thing erm it helps obviously if you can link in what you're asking people to some of these previous ideas, theories, bits of evidence and stuff like that Mm. so it looks like, when you write it up it looks like some, it's got some sort of continuous argument to it Mm. Yeah. which often looks quite nice so that even if what you've found doesn't quite match up with what they've found you can say well look you know these theories, ideas are need enriching, they're a bit inadequate as they stand because what happens when somebody tells you this, what happens when somebody says this erm you know we can, we can revise them in the following way Mm. which is question section erm you know you can tell that kind of s equally Yeah. you may find that certain pe Mm. got so much dreams Mm. erm but you know when you Yeah. go through it's quite, you know Yeah. applicable a lot of Cos I mean those mental rotation tasks are, you know, fairly standard er cognitive tests that Mm. are sometimes used as part of I Q tests and things like that sometimes Right. so er that's old is it Shepherd and Metzler No it's not in this case but I think they invented the task, yes they did good old Shepherd and Metzler erm er so erm yeah er you know sort of spatial ability type Mm. things. Erm tt yeah but er so anyway whatever strands you can draw out of these things Mm. you know in terms of, not necessarily the precise content, but you can get erm some general idea about how people have studied the mental life of blind persons and how, you know, maybe it's interesting that er presumably most of the people who've studied it are themselves sighted rather than blind themselves you know That's right, yeah. I mean it's like the, the able bodied studying the disabled, men studying women Mm. whites studying blacks, you know, all those other kinds of imbalances in, in psychology in the social sciences erm which might be interesting erm cos like Guy sometimes says about erm when he was er talking to some er deaf people, well perhaps not talking's the right word but communicating with some deaf people about their, about their problems, I mean this bloke said you psychologists are all the same you just think that deaf people need cochlea implement Yeah said that. i implant and yeah that kind of thing and er whereas, you know, in this guy's view it would erm involve the erosion of, of the whole culture of sign language Mm. you know that, that you know he saw something valuable and wanted to preserve presumably so Yeah I think cos he said about that in the lecture about the Mm, yeah, mm sort of like friction it caused. Mm yeah. Yeah erm so er you know you may find some traces of a more, you know, kind of er I don't know, politicized understanding on the part of blind people as to, you know, what it means to you know kind of have their life investigated Well one of the well one of them was saying Mm. like a lot of people ask Mm. about the dreams of bli you know ask us and er Yeah. Yeah. said you know they ask us about colour and Mhm. you know, said you know it's so narrowminded of them to ask us that, you know, if you're Yeah. completely blind you know the concept of colour they said Mm. Mm. they said colour was one of the hardest Mm. things to like, like a colour green you'd have to Yeah. describe it as fresh, you know, and But that, we only have that, that's only by association for, for, for sighted people, yeah That's right, exactly exactly so so you know they said mm that's right. Mm. Mm. Now Yeah. another thing was in, in the introduction I wondered how much explanation of like general structured dreams Mm are, are there people coming in? Oh no it's, it's a, they've wandered off, oh never mind Mm it's just some students that gra well mature student who graduated last year so anyway carry on. Mm yeah. Erm it was sort of really from this book it's nineteen ninety one erm which is Yeah. Right, good. Mm. you know all looking into how dreams of erm able sighted people and how Mm. much do you want on that if you see what I mean to describe about dreams that Yeah erm to, for comparison? well it's one of these things where if you sort of have a Cos it's quite detailed. have a read of things and then on the basis of what your informants tell you then you can sort of focus it a bit more on erm tt you know the stuff that er erm you know the stuff that comes out in the literature that's particularly well suited or well fitted with the, with the stuff that, you know, you've, you've got erm I mean that's probably the best way to do it and I also find actually trying to write things sh myself shows up the holes in arguments, shows up the bits that you need yet to fill in sort of thing Mm. erm so I mean what I did with my final year project was actually try to write something which was very sort of wide ranging and broad which sort of was like a first dr draft of an introduction and then once I got more data Mm. sorted you know I could, I could try and zero it in a bit more on, on, on what the data was about erm What did you do it on? It was about er the press and unemployment and it was about the way the effects of unemployment were written about in well broadsheet and popular newspapers, it also involved a bit of a study where I gave people some articles to show which had been typed up in a fairly anonymous format and, and got them to rate them in various ways and that was in, let me see, nineteen eighty three long long time ago Oh yeah Christmases are flicking past like Sundays it's terrible er yeah it does, it goes faster. Erm yeah so I mean that's generally the way to go so I th I think you know it's probably worth working away towards a, a more specific set of questions that you might want to ask and, and think of ways of administering them so you get some sort of, you know, numerical information in the end. Equally you know things that might prompt people to talk, to describe dreams, to tell stories and that Mm. erm so er Erm the other thing that kind of thing. cos they were quite interested cos they hadn't had like anyone actually properly doing research or anything erm Mm. she said you know could she have a copy and I said Mm. you know I'll do a copy in braille Yeah fine. as well which they said Oh wow. would be absolutely brilliant and Excellent. she said she would erm cos it's erm well it would work out about forty pound to have it done, thirty five What, have it done in braille? Mm. Er but she said she Oh that's not as bad as I thought because I'd always heard that it was like really really expensive to produce er material in braille. Apparently as long as I get it on a P C disk, five inch Mhm. well she said actually, she said she's gonna try and erm Mm. tt put it through the books there as well so Yeah. you know she's gonna take off about Mm. fifteen pound there and I've chat Mm. I chatted to the bloke as well who did the Mm. who was partially blind as well actually who did the erm Yeah. Mm. processing and he said you know that'd be fine to do so Yeah. Well I suppose you know once you've got a machine that effectively like a big dot r dot matrix I would've you could er you could do it with with something like a, a desk top printer er Mm. and you know maybe it's getting easier these days, mm. Yeah. I was, I was surprised I thought it'd be a lot more cos I just you know Mm. enquired just to see if I could do it but er Yeah. Because in in the early days when it was invented I mean people were actually embossing the dots on by hand individually erm so er anyway yeah so, yeah that, that would be excellent, yeah, mm. But I just thought, you know, it'd be nice to give it because they have been, I mean they've been really helpful and Excellent yeah so good, cos that's always the Yeah . thing with dealing with outside organizations, you know, that sometimes they're Yeah. either a bit off putting or a bit slow or a bit, you know, all sorts Mm. of other things so er so that's er seems like so far so good almost erm you know, fingers crossed erm Yeah exactly, yeah. anyway at least you've made contact and it seems, seems like it's going okay Yeah exactly, there wasn't sort of and that's the main erm any friction at all between us so mhm, yeah, good erm I think that's about the lot really. Think what I'll do is try and try and get hold of the other report and then Yeah. Mm. erm if I can bring a sample questionnaire when I've done it to you I mean I'll see Yeah certainly, yes. Mm. you know when I get there so obviously Mm. Yeah. then I'll make an appointment and just Yeah great stuff. If you, so if you come in come in next week some time and Yeah. Yeah. also, it goes without saying, I mean the people at the other end would probably like to see a copy before you start just for, to see if they can suggest Mm. anything, just for approval, you know, cos people, people, people, people, people like to think Yeah I mean that's what, that's what they would er they've been asked and, and stuff like that. yeah. I phoned up this week just to say I'm getting on with it and they sort of like she said she'd Mm. Mm. Yeah. try and get there's sorted out. Yeah. Yeah. Good so er Righty-ho. Right oh well glad to see er things are happening and, you know things are progressing. So much Mm. it's ridiculous this term Yeah. Yeah mm right good We've got four hundred four hundred words a day we calculated we've gotta do Oh right er Dunno if that's a good way of looking at it. Yeah well I dunno I'm dreading the Easter holidays cos I've got like erm we're probably gonna have about two hundred pieces of coursework to mark over Easter then there's, and they're sort of you know projecty things and things like that erm and then there's first week next term there's like all these second year social, which is well over a hundred of them plus about forty final year projects will come in, plus about I'm hoping it'll only be twenty things from Loughborough but it might be as many as, as fifty if the other person gives me all their marking er as they have, they've given some indication that they will oh it's alright I'll give you a couple of hundred quid for it but, you know, it's all, it's all Mm. so erm yeah just hope I don't get ill between now and round about July I think it'll all be over That'd be the wouldn't it? so, yeah, yeah I mean if you have flu for a week or something, you know everything Yeah, exactly. everything er Once you get a week out of hand you know it just goes mm yeah, yeah when it's all sort of tightly packed together Mm. when it's all like an interference fit and, and there's not much room. Oh I looked up about the last, the last essay I did cos it was about erm Mm. smoking and trying to change erm strategies towards it, I don't know if you remember? Erm it was It was about I remember doing someone smoking I can't remember yours specifically erm unfortunately so Oh it was just erm cos it said about, cos I couldn't work it out cos he said about a reference which was Mm. eighty one reference and the magazine wasn't out till Well hang ab you'd er you'd put er you'd put the date some time in ninety four Yeah. somewhere er which or, or if, if it was the one It was eighty three it was if it oh right so it was er but I looked and it was actually oh if it, if it was if it w if it was that one I think, I think there was some dis if, if it's the thing I'm thinking of there was some discrepancy, I think it was alright in the s on one occasion there was some stuff which I couldn't find at the end Yeah. but there was some stuff with like dates that hadn't happened yet in ninety four or something er It was it was two magazines but what it actually was which I Yeah. Mm. If, I think if that's the one I was thinking was mm it's actually an Am it was it was an American book which cos it was Just Seventeen Yeah. and Good Housekeeping magazine which didn't Oh! Oh, oh right erm oh we're talking about the the actual titles of the things that didn't start till oh the sort of U K version Yeah that's right that was the problem didn't start till later. I didn't know that's it's Amer it was the American one, that's what I Oh it was the American version? Ah I beg oh I beg your pardon in that case erm No that, yeah, that's, I couldn't work it out because because I, I remem I remember when the if it was the Seventeen er I remember when that was launched in the, in the U K and it was Mm. some time after I didn't have any idea the original cos I saw that and thought Mm. you know it applied to the British Yeah. cos I didn't just Erm but it was the American, they're American magazines mm. Oh right, yeah. so Oh I beg your pardon then. No no . No it's no it's alright it just, it just puzzled me because I couldn't see where it had, might have come from Well I thought Yeah. Righty-ho then Mm. I'll get on Yeah good. Okay. So was, was it also you that had got some, some, some dates in the references that hadn't happened yet like the erm pe there was somebody it might have been you had actually referred to things that, you know, sort of twenty first of the fourth ninety four and things like that and it was sort of Don't think so. Oh it was probably not you, that was probably somebody else then but I remember seeing that, you know Yeah I don't remember, no I think that was no that was er that was another example of peculiar dates in, in, in references and er stuff like They can obviously see in the future Yes I was thinking that you know perhaps they could er quite, quite talented really, a waste of you know sort of erm read the, the racing columns or the er or the, or the, or the, or the I think that's or the stock market reports or something like that. Yeah mm. Right, cheers then. Okay right. I'll just see if that er that character who was looking in the window's still around. Mm. Oh right yeah so er ah Cheers okay, cheers. Oh hello, I just wanna say hello to Pete Right and, and, well and to you as well Viv but er I haven't seen Viv, I haven't seen Pete for a while. I'll get some of this later Yeah. Mm. Mm. I, I I went to as we came down, suddenly realized you'd got somebody there you were obviously deep in conference so er Yeah. but I, I'll give you a knock when I've finished if I can Yeah fine yes please do, I might, there might be somebody else in there with me by then er Well I, I won't disturb you. it's quite, quite, quite, quite rare I have a spare moment these days but er yeah please do er give us a knock when you've finished here. Right cheers. Bye. Oh what er but it's in the mail Yeah. arrive this afternoon, I've sent it back Oh excellent because I to the er Mm. to the writer to the author of the chap Yeah. of the erm Yeah. Okay well it will be interesting to see what er what other people have, have said about it because I was sort of fishing around a bit in the dark and looking at the stats manual One review was absolutely crap Mhm. just about three lines Oh. the other review is really good, just as good as yours and he and you are saying very much the same things. Well I never. Oh, right. So the, the S P S S manual didn't let me down then. I did take out one thing about the bible since it was going to somebody in the States in the bible belt and I didn't Ah you never know. I didn't like to take any risks You never know yes, okay well that's er I did wipe out your comment about the bible Oh well that's fine. but apart from that it went in Mm. exactly as you'd put it. Right okay so they can, they can, I ca they can er curse me and send me death threats now if they so desire. Well they don't know, it's anonymous Oh right yeah. I took your signature off the bottom. Okay well, well I don't mind them knowing who I am, I er I mean it's a, you know, if they do want to, mm anonymous Yeah. Anyway I must get on. See you later. So, okay right. Cheers. Right. I don't want to encourage Erm mention this morning or is that gonna be embarrassing No. or sh Right okay, button's plugged in, microphone on and off we go. Okay. No problem. Oh dear Ha parcels, I love parcels. I tell you what, would you like to open the parcels? Yeah Right that'll give you something to do. Erm erm not exactly no. Right. Erm phew! Ah! Well what can we do for you? Did you Yes I did. Yes erm let's just er find it again, no that's not it, I must have it here somewhere. No it hasn't been there for a little while British National Corpus I've been carrying it around with me and I wonder what I've done with it. Therapies and, no erm erm as I recollect er ah! Here it is. I was gonna say as I recollect I didn't see much wrong with it that I would disagree with erm I think it's nice to see, you know, sort of progress seems to be going on and erm er what I would say is sort of it might be a good idea to sort of line the numbers up a bit more but erm Yeah. Yeah. er I did actually aside fr I looked at it mys I changed a bit Mm. myself, I could feel that the order Yeah. of the questions weren't Mhm. cos like So is this like er s er yet another version from this or is that like an older one er Oh well it's the same questions I've just changed the Mm. order of the questions Yeah. Aha. cos I thought maybe asking about their own experience but okay Mhm. before like putting all these categories cos it Yeah. Yeah. might put ideas Yeah. in their head or something. Yeah erm that might be true but then sometimes it can be an adventure to put ideas in people's heads so they actually write something Oh right. erm because I have had the trouble of asking open ended questions and like nobody says anything so er Oh. erm however I always find with questionnaires it's very difficult to predict what's going to go wrong in advance so Mm. erm you might as well do a bit of a erm you know kind of give it a go and see what happens Mm. erm now erm I think er I think yeah that was okay. It might be, if there's a little bit of room, it might be worth sort of s moving the numbers slightly towards the erm items so that, because if you sort of Yeah. look across it's you know can be a bit That was what I yeah thought about that. I thought about putting Mm. but then I thought it might take up too much space. Well I wouldn't worry too much about cramming it all together tightly because it's erm one of the few things we've still got a budget for is photocopying student questionnaires so you m you know, you might as well take advantage of that, it doesn't erm it doesn't cost you anything and the actual difference it makes to the university and to erm world resources is very slight indeed I think Okay so er you know okay. er so you might want to, you know, kind of space it out slightly erm Yeah. er right erm tt yep that seems to be okay I didn't erm no I was reading this on, this morning just after the clinical lecture and I didn't see anything that, that I thought would be problematic erm you know given, you know, sort of what I've seen in your coursework so far you seem to have got a fairly good idea of what you can ask and what you can get away with and what sorts of things you think are useful and, and, and stuff like that so erm you know I'm entirely happy with your judgment as to the content erm you know because it's part of an ongoing pr project and it's not just something that you've, you've knocked off in half an hour or anything so erm you know I, I think, I think usually what I say about questionnaires is towards the business of, you know, kind of writing them in people's own words that, that sort of fit in with ordinary language okay putting them in a sensible order advising people to do scale type things with five or seven points or something which you've got a lot of already so a lot of the comments that I normally make on people's questionnaires er you can take as read as it were erm so I think erm you know just really one or two minor things about layout like, you know, you know sort of space and, and moving things around a wee bit, it might make them easier to read but again as I say that's a you know relatively minor erm problem. So in the other version that you've got what sort of changes to the order have you made? Erm Well I put I put all these questions about erm have you witnessed violence or not I put Yeah. I put them first and then I Mhm. put erm all this about what you think force is You put all the scaly things After there yeah erm yeah erm well I wonder erm again it's difficult to tell what's going to work best. In some ways as regards the, the layout and the appearance of the thing I tend to prefer this version because on this one erm if we have a look at that there's just like l oh my God loads of numbers oh no Yeah. I can't be bothered to answer that, throw it away erm you know erm not that they will but er you know it it's, it's one of these things that, that sort of looks like there's a bit of variety on it when you've got mm Mm. you know alternating things you know Yeah. with some, some things to write a few words in, some things to tick, some things to make a mark on one of the numbers and so forth so erm er you know it's erm but as I say it's difficult to er Well maybe if I got a couple of people to fill in Mm. the different versions and see Yeah fine see, see which they er which they, do a bit of market research as it were, yes Mm. erm that can sometimes help certainly, yeah, but er as I say er I think there should be it should yield a, a fair amount of data for you and, and you know with a bit of, are you a stat view or S P S S person or any strong Oh preferences or? I think you have to use S P S S cos I didn't Right fair enough. well I did do stat view in the first year but not very much Yeah. No, no I how to use it. find stat view very difficult to use myself but er when the time comes, once you've got a few that are filled in we can erm well I'll show you how to do an S P S S data file and, and erm so you can bash your data in and if you bring it back we can turn it into a system file and analyze it. Erm so er that shouldn't be too bad. So I don't know do you, do you fancy now kind of giving the different versions to a few people by way of er er Yeah. another pilot and, and see if erm Well I'll just do it in my flat I suppose Yeah. Yeah fair enough if, if that's erm you know how you fancy starting. And then if you finish it off. any, any sort of, yeah, any sort of changes or anything erm er I don't know if you're around sort of early next week we can Yeah. get the Yeah. things reprographicated and Yeah. and er it usually takes about three working days and er Okay. and away you go. How subjects are you ? Erm with a thing like this, I mean what I usually say to people it depends on erm if you've got a lot of numerical data, oh you might as well have this back for the time being so sweaty hands soaking into it or anything erm er then it does help, if you're looking for P less than point O five, and aren't we all these days, erm you know er it helps if erm it helps if the groups that you're comparing between there's about sort of at least twenty people in each sort of thing, erm and the same goes for things like, things that you might want to do squares on or something like that erm so I mean if you were interested in comparing people who attended very regularly with people who only attended once in a while erm you know it would help if there were about sort of more than forty people altogether so that there was sort of, you know Mm. you could median split them at whatever the medium was and then you've got two groups to compare erm because it usually looks quite nice if you've got something comparative as well as looking at the average sort of, you know, pattern of responses on the questionnaire. Equally if you've got erm I don't know what other kinds of differences you might want to erm er look for but again if you're looking for differences it helps if there's about sort of twenty people in each of the groups sort of thing. Or if you're comparing people with themselves as it were, that is looking for differences between how they answer one question and how they answer another question, then sort of , you know, kind of twenty or more people and you've got a reasonable chance of showing up some, some P less than point O fives. Erm I don't know that's, this is not in any official stats books but it's just my experience with students' projects that if you get more than, there's a sort of critical mass of about, about forty respondents and then you're much more likely to start showing some interesting statistically significant findings for some reason, erm I don't quite know why but er it's one of life's little mysteries but er so that's usually if there's a lot of numerical data what I'd try and advise people to er to get. Oh that's So you know I mean more than that by all means, you know, er so much the better, you know y the more the merrier but erm certainly you know kind of it's a good idea to at least try and get that many erm Yeah. so er I've got, I've got in touch with a football supporters society Mm. and erm they've got eighty members so Oh right. Mhm. so they're like sending me a list, well they sent me back a half list Mm. I said to them can I have a list they said oh yeah sure she went we'll put it in your Mm. Mm. pigeon hole, you know it's just like bit of, scrap of paper with like a few names on it Mm. and they said oh we'll get the list to you, the full list to you as soon as possible I mean Yeah. that was about two weeks ago Yeah. Well I mean it's often things that people do in their spare time the, the record keeping isn't perfect and, and Yeah that's the thing they haven't got time, yeah. they don't have a, you know, kind of computer based mailing list that they can print out or something you know? No yeah I know that so Mm. so I should Yeah. if I, if I get in touch with them then I'll Mm. Yeah I mean that might certainly give you some, you know, kind of you know regular attenders to er to, to Yeah. to look at erm so er yeah Great. Are you into football very much yourself or er Yeah. Oh right mm so it's, it, this, this emerges out of a personal interest thing? Yeah Oh right. Mm. Yeah I support Bristol City Oh right. Are you from that part of the world at all or? Er Forest of Dean. Oh right so er mm Yeah it's the nearest place really. Yeah within the nearest place with a biggish With a yeah. football team possibly yeah. Anyway Right. Right so er I think that's everything. Yeah. So if I get it laid out again then, you know Yeah fine erm but as I say it's just sort of you know kind of minor layout changes, that's all I was suggesting Yeah. so you know at a pinch you could probably run it like that and I don't suppose anybody would notice the difference but, you know, just in terms of you know making things look attractive Right. erm so you know but you may find if you give, print off a few and give them to a few people over the weekend Mm. you may find that some additional changes occur to you Mm. which you might want to incorporate anyway so you may not want to print off another version anyway Yeah. so er Erm oh yeah the other thing was it's two sided at the moment, is that Mm. best or do you think Erm generally speaking the consensus is it helps if it's sort of on one side Oh right. but how you do your original is up to you I mean it's just what we ask for from reprographics and you know they do single sided Okay yeah. double sided, collated, stapled different coloured paper and all, you know, all this sort of thing Yeah. so er erm er so that's no, is there anything else we need to worry about with regard to that? Er no I don't think so. So as I say I think it'll, I think it'll, it'll run okay and behave itself on the assumption you can get some people to fill it in so er Yeah. yeah right. Right, good. Okay. Well do have er a pleasant weekend Okay. Mm. I shall try to. Yeah. And yourself Oh yes I could do with one. Are you working? Yeah well I'm, I'm gonna try and get the final year lecture for Tuesday sorted actually on Saturday and erm it's usually, it's usually Guy but I think I'm doing it this week, yeah, because I've got quite a few to do on things like racist in the media and Guy's mate Dennis has just written a book and he's given me a manuscript of it and it's about how racist psychology is which is Really? yeah and he's spotted racism in the Atkinson et al textbook and all sorts of, all over the place so erm mm there should be something interesting to talk about in that for a start. Yeah. So er anyway Okay. more of this on Tuesday. See you Mm. Bye then. Mm. Oh hello. So what have we got, have they sent me some new textbooks? Oh lovely. But one's for you and one's for Guy Oh I see, oh blimey. Ah. Have you finished in there now? Erm yes I've finished with the students oh right, oh I didn't realize, there were just two parcels on the erm Yeah look on the thing and, and I picked them both up you see. I thought they were both for me. Oh dear. Ah! Oh well erm Yeah I didn't fancy let's see going up to the senile No I don't I don't blame you. Erm I sort of started to feel a bit ill before so Yeah. Well do er do come in er well did you have a pleasant trip down? Erm yeah it was okay, it wasn't too bad. Mm. Alright cos I think we've been sent these on approval to see if we want to adopt them for course material Yeah. you see so erm They seem quite nice. Yeah. Erm well I, I don't know quite what erm they'll be teaching you out of in your er abnormal course but erm er I do find the, the the sort of current generation of American textbooks quite erm Mm. quite a nice, quite exciting erm I tell you what, swivel that swivel chair round and, and sit on that Okay. Do you have a drink please or Yes of course. Now erm what sort of flavours appeal? Now we've got ordinary tea, we've got herbal tea, we've got coffee out of a coffee machine, we've got Lapsang Souchong, we've got ordinary tea I've mentioned that already haven't I? Erm We've got soap powder and shampoo Oh I'll have some sort of tea, that'll do. Yeah. Well we've got, what about some, some Lapsang? It's sort of Lapsang teabags, that's quite Yeah. quite refreshing, I've had a lot of coffee already today. I'll just go and fill the kettle. Okay. Are you going to eat this cheese roll? Well would you like some? I'll have a bit. Yeah. Erm it's not too What's in the middle? elderly it's cheese and pickle Oh good, I can't Oh well yeah, got you there. Erm yeah if er you have no objection, what it's for is the, there's this outfit called the British National Corpus and they're trying to make a record of English Language as it's used in the late twentieth century erm so it's a sort of resource for further scholarship so it can assist in writing dictionaries and studying grammar and, and all sorts of things like that and erm they're attempting to tape conversations from all over the place erm er I've got a bit of bumph about it, it's quite interesting erm and in some cases it's sort of out of erm er it's out of people's homes, it's out of broadcasts, it's out of meetings, it's out of all sorts of things erm at work and at home erm Have you just turned it on now? Yeah it's, it's just on at the moment er they didn't hear any the other stuff Oh. erm so oh yes it's Oxf er Oxford University Press, Chambers Dictionaries, British Library, Lancaster University Oxford University erm so er it's erm quite interesting so Do you mind if I have a cigarette? No go ahead Are you sure? go ahead I don't, no I don't mind people smoking in here, it's fine by me. So er oh dear, oh I'm a bit frazzled. Frazzled? Yeah I mean it er I was up till about two A M so er What, marking? Well I've just about finished marking for the moment, er what it is erm I went out last night, ill advised Goes Sure you don't want to go badminton, mm, ah? No No it's too muddy out No it's not ah, when? Where? It might where? it's hot Erm have a bath there are what's this for? come on yeah yeah it will, ah? No what, what's that? Do what? What's that? Oh, what do you mean?eh? What do you mean? If you like, ain't you got none? I only want ten I ain't got that many what? Can you lend us no I haven't got any money er done a hole there, it's not even going through the hole turn that handle, see you later then No I want a pound, lends us a pound Jo No Yeah No Yeah I haven't got a pound on me Show us can you lend us a pound? No Please No Please I haven't got any money Neil, I just told you Ah? it's not my fault It's not mine either Just give me your change then I haven't got any change Well, how, your coppers, you must have a pound tucked away somewhere mum, mum Have a game of something Neil, then you won't have to go into town will you? Not staying here with you just because you're bored I ain't I'm not bored Eh? Shut up parrot me a pound after what I've just done for you out there Oh wowee I didn't have to help you No you didn't, but you did er how often has it not You won't get any money, go away I only want one pound Why? Cos I don't For fags? How often is it that I have asked you for money? Never, but you don't usually get any from me that's why you've never asked. I, I I don't normally ask you anyway Well what, what do you want it for? Please sis No I won't Please sis No I haven't got any change Yes you have Look in my purse, I haven't got any money Please sis Oh Neil Please, I'm, come on I've not got any money Not even a fifty P? No cos I used that to go to oh come on you must have some change to be Or not to be, oh no come on sis No I'll do anything please I, I You, you clean my black boots for me, polish my black boots for me and I give you a quid When I come back No, no you do it now or you don't get your pound What these ones? Yeah Alright then I tell you something if I clean these and I don't get that pound Yes you will, you'll definitely get a pound If I clean these and I don't get a pound these are going in the pond I promise you a pound if you and then they walk in the bin so I suggest you don't give me any hassle Oh I'll give you , I'll give you a pound don't worry, make sure you do the job properly, mm you'd better do it outside, cos the er, the boot polish don't go on the carpet. ah look at this mum look I'm wiping for a pound Alright if I can see my face in them you, you might have a tip See you've got your purse in your bag you better give me the money Why wait in the car breaker, breaker No come round See he does it with my voice. Now your at home Yeah innit? No, no, like you, like you say is any one tape the first tape you fill in it No but I mean you've got to fill in after all this? Yeah I what's that bit stuck on what's, what's all that off? It's his hairstyle are you sure you turned that bleeding kettle off? I have Well why's it still steaming then? Cos it's hot And the frying pan not really I think the taste is distorted or something The taste gone wrong, erm, what you want? What shall I put? Which part, how do I write erm is the alphabetic yeah What? Is Derrick about? Oh Derrick and Jo went up to London today I don't know something to do with erm sports I suppose well, or some entertainment I suppose Yum yum it's like I suppose yesterday and it's worse, worse today than when I done it yesterday Got a sports thing yet? No, where's, where's that then? Go and pump, pump some weights today You can go and do that can't you?, No don't you? How can I do it, I've got to get in the building first Old Shaun name's on the old run machine today yeah That won't last will it? Mm, no Sheila a housekeeper, Colin a Neil unemployed, bird a pain in the butt , what sex is he anyway? What? Is it male or female? Female Female country no Do you want one? No thank you, have your shorts on then? I suppose sometimes they tape and there's nothing on there at all Good oh the tapes What's that then? got to erase forty five minutes before anyone says anything I suppose What? Trying to think what to put down your relationship here Whose? His Oh The bird cor, better oh yes God don't start him off again Pretty boy oh Can do with some fags Pardon? Can do with some fags Oh, tell them a joke here Pardon? Tell them yeah performance today, yeah, what's on down there? Ten pin bowling Who give you that? Post By post through the post you or something Mind you save five pounds Wet Wet's they've sold out Geoff and er Trevor's off to see him ain't he? His mum got him tickets Oh well Wet Wet Wet, not Wet Wet try and make then laugh I suppose oh did he? Yeah They seem so who? Trevor come back before the end of March I think Yeah well she said in the letter didn't she Yeah she was coming back home and out again, did Tony have a letter from her? No Oh dear have a nice kip, it's, it's mm? come down, is that a yes? Ah I suppose Nigel I told you everyone's coming No you didn't, you I don't know I think he's putting one there, one out, one there, one there, one outside that door You can't we've only got two lights here Yeah I think he, I think he's, I've explained like everything, we're just paying the money for it that is all Oh is that what he said? Yeah Oh he's putting one outside that door, one outside that one, one out the front and Yeah because you, you mentioned you wanted one out there didn't you, cos and wanted a light switch there actually I want get one get one of the extension you know it's What it is, is that anything is likely to come on Yes, yes I know, I've heard it jumping about ain't he? Who? Him it come on I might ask if he can put one of those things in the bathroom What's that then? hands, get all the steam out What an extractor fan? That's it, that's the word Cos when you have a bath all the, you know, put the fan on and all the steam'll go out, rather cling to the walls and that. Like a sauna in there when you have a shower I suppose he knows what he's doing be a bit of drilling I suppose won't it? All they have to do is drill there well he won't do no drilling He will Why? He's gonna have to drill Oh yeah, put the cables through won't he? Mm and that one there, and oh I That'll is there any water in it? what was? comes off Yeah that's what I said to you didn't I? Only when I take them off Danny, Danny come up over my socks no one 's asking you are they? Oh god Cor strewth See even now mum you can't see when you're doing the washing up I suppose your finished early yesterday Pardon, what did you say Neil? I thought Darren was meant to finish early yesterday Eh? what colour is that then? Er oh, see you later Baby Alright, alright Hold on a minute there darling I thought you'd done it before Oh yeah this is a Has Daniel down there? Would he hell said he was I went this morning I said enjoyed your weekend then, she said oh yeah, I said how's Daniel then? Daniel she says, Danny weren't there I said well Jean said, she said well Jean wouldn't know him if he come and sat on her lap so she said no he weren't there, said erm I used to go down there, she said she was very good. Yeah and erm No see what's happened you see, that's gotta go young bloke was down there, she said it was a good weekend really, she said they took their own drink. Yeah they took their own drink at the bar there She said I reckon we saved er fifty pound she said Yeah, that's er I think it went like that before and you fixed it in the No I can't cos I, I can't screw it in there, that's sitting there look see, see that, that in there look, if I can get that out I'll be able to see if I can get that out love I no I can't, no not there Let's have it then No, no you can't love, because We've done it at work Go on then that is the same thickness as that in there, that is What's that there then? That's what that, that's come off there that has Well you pull it out don't you? Go on then you try and pull it out of us, that's what I'm trying to do look you want a pair of pliers do you? Have then, it's harder than what you think it is this Ah? It's harder than what you think it is this Oh, I wonder why this was yeah I suppose that's why it went, sucking it up properly I suppose she had it riding up had a tug at it and that's what rips it I suppose Yeah I'll get you a pair of pliers? You can get, you can get, you can get whatever you like darling, but you won't get that in there pliers, you won't get that in there, what I'll try and do is get a What about cut through, what do you reckon? Well With that, let's have a go Want a cup of tea? I suppose you've been whistling today No Well we'll have to do upstairs, hoover that much longer Why's that then? Oh cos when I've been doing it has been up there nattering, it's been noticed, so Norren come up to me today and she said oh er you don't have to do upstairs she said, give it a couple of weeks she said and you won't have to do it any more Why's that then? so I said well why's that then Norren? I've got used to doing it now, you know? Yeah Well she said she's got a lot of scrubs to do and all that business Yeah so she said while you've been doing that she said she's been sort of gassing to anybody you know, so she said it's been mentioned by management and they said oh well she'll be able to sort of hovering while she stood there you know, time, time to natter she could be erm, got time to do that. yeah so I said oh I see, so that was that, so I think they've got a, a meeting in a couple of weeks and they'll sort of tell her discreetly that she has to carry on and do it what she's been the time sort of thing you know, so, said it's been noticed that like and all that you know? Yeah But erm, you know, get it's got to be scrubbed more often so you know Normally that is the same thickness as what this I think can you hold that dear? I'm surprised Joy didn't say something about it yesterday actually Joanne Perhaps she didn't have it she done quite a bit of hovering really Oh that's good then, yeah Is it alright now? Well, yeah It'll only pop out I suppose won't it? Well it have to pop out but it keeps popping back in again that's all that is Sorry alright thank you, prefers than what you done last time Yeah better than that, yeah How's your mouth then? Alright Where's the other lighter? There in here oh I see. Where's Samuel where's Samuel's? What er, Tony out Has he? Yeah What she want in there for then? I don't know, I asked him to meet me at Oh cock a fan, come on then, now don't bite back you beastly little parrot you you put it, you put it on oh god yeah Tommy Shh good morning oh What have you got to do erm, college I think that's what he's gone down for I think Is it? Oh Yeah should of asked erm Jean, asked er whatever her name is, for the details Yeah but but she said he's now going er, erm October Who is? Daniel this is February, October Yeah This is February ain't it so he goes What does he, be getting it again, but he hasn't done it yet has he? No but he's due, he's booked in for erm Oh oh What's a matter with you then? about what? goes to show it's been used then don't it? Oh yeah, what did you get that bloody cable over Pardon? Where'd you put that cable? oh oh excuse me What? this carpet gets filthy ah? oh you need to be a bloody to get these damn things off, look Well you should of got bigger size shouldn't you? will they do? Yeah I bet that was the first too I suppose This Friday I think What this Friday? Yeah What shall we post it or shall we give it to her? Pardon? Post Oh you can post it, yeah Oh it's nice to take the weight off my feet Well you've sat on your arse all day as well No I haven't Oh that makes a change then ah? trying to get work Who? erm yes please What? All of them please have you got those, all of them did the shop sell this morning, those potatoes Yeah Oh they call it oh I thought you did No I didn't, no cos I say cos erm Bill never got a bag, and it four pounds something now Where'd he get it from? Oh I don't know, but it was I don't know her last ones, about two pound something a bag They're two fifty a bag in there ain't you? Yeah Weather I suppose got something to do with it had a weekend down there with her and Ant Oh yeah cos she weren't very well really No, no, they broke down didn't they? Ah? They broke down Oh I dunno she didn't say nothing about that Yeah, no, she and Colin they broke down they, they broke down at the Oh she didn't, no Yeah, they got they'd got half hour's drive from Minehead and that their car broke down, they had to go up, they had to call the, was it the A are they? Oh yeah They got there but they had to go in second gear look Oh dear, oh I wonder how they'd got down there, I wonder whether they sort of No they got down got down at their own steam I suppose Yeah they went down in convoy car and I think they, four or five cars went down there Oh yeah there were sixteen of them, sixteen of them all there Sixteen? Yeah sixteen of them, well the more of them you see the cheaper it is Yeah she said that er they walked into Minehead on Sunday Oh yeah, Jean told me she said no , Jean said oh I can't walk that, have a bloody heart attack she says, so they put her in a trolley they put her in a bloody trolley and oh course she said, this woman said erm said she might be small she said but she ain't half put on some weight you know Oh yeah you know? Yeah So I said well I don't, I don't look at her and I sort of see she said yeah she said sorted that out and put her in a trolley Yeah but she had to walk back that way didn't she? Did she? Yeah she went to, she went to the shops and got one of those trolleys, she said what for? She said I want to go to Minehead now, what she said it's only just up there, yeah I know but I've, I've bloody got to climb down there and bloody try and get back she says, er well it's not that she, it was affecting the drink she had you know Oh I see she said the drink, the drinks are quite expensive down there Yeah, I'm glad they took their, took their own Yeah cos what, what they said like, their own, cos they run out of wine at the bar and er, they went in the supermarket and got two bottles of wine and kept them on the table you see Oh so, they said what was it? The wine that have in the bog, is that a cheap wine? Yeah Well they ran it like that cos they said at the bar we can sell you a bottle of wine for seven pound fifty though, so he said you bugger off he said that, went down the supermarket and get our own like Oh and of course the bloke that were drinking that he kept, then they buy a bottle and erm they used to queue at the table that for the you know Oh yeah used to just keep topping that you know I thought they'd be more into spirits than wine Well there were spirits weren't there, vodka and all that, you know, no I suppose one or two drunk the old wine you know Oh yeah but she said, oh she said, they and that, they rented the horses that go up and down you know They've got a down there? Oh yeah, oh god almighty, everything's free, once you've paid your entrance fee everything's free now look Yeah, quite right run now innit, cos that's where Susan took her dad weren't it, Minehead down there, that way Susan took ? Who? Took who? Took us, that's where we went down Minehead through there Oh, when? When we went for that there Oh not me No, no Oh no erm, oh the yes, I said it was all Let us make our way there, we'd get lost Who? No go and have a look see what it's like Most probably end up in Wales Pardon? We'd most probably end up in Wales or something I'd go and ring Barry up then So what you gonna do for eats tomorrow then? Well you won't have much time now to eat No don't, I shall, if I'm home by, only if I got back by five, I, I better Thought you taking in Geoffrey No I'm not taking Geoffrey in, he's going with his mate now lives No but I thought he was where to park Yeah what I'll do, I'll see them all look, each even about twenty six Oh yeah and what we do we meet up by the golf course Got a bit of interference there Yeah, ah, we meet up by the golf course, cos time I pick David up David up you there see, I've got to the golf course up So they'll wait for you there then are they? Well I can get oh yeah and I see, when he sees me park there, flash me, I just follow on, you know So I what he can do is have something when he gets up, rather than the old something sort of Yeah well, I don't, I don't get a dinner before I go up to bed. Well what you got then? I don't know I think it's Wednesday week Well before I go to bed I have baked beans on toast or something like that you know, it's, it's not pardon? Ah? Oh god All of a sudden I'll be home, cor strewth you didn't have any of that stuff today then did you? Yeah I had a glass this morning Did you? Yeah, I've got the shits now I tell yeah eating too much, I suppose if you had a little glass, then just one of that stuff, then some All Bran, you won't be so bad No in fact you had too much you see No I don't think so cos you lost none have you? Yes Where? I have done I've Let me see then, round your kneecaps? No I have, I have lost it, I tell you what, now listen Don't you start splattering at me mate Now look, this had been a, a mark going around that, right and that's what I have lost it though, I have There are, don't tip that over the cloth then Alright then, come on then you know I forgot I didn't have me keys with me this morning, of course the first one Didn't you have your sandwiches then? I just, I had erm soft bread you know get that cut that bread Did you? Did you have that luncheon meat that's in there? Yeah You did there's two slices left, I shall have that tomorrow no, no I'm not that keen on it I just have a couple of biscuits and a cup of tea when I come home Yeah oh yeah I'll get some more Thursday yes, what biscuits do you want, big ones? Yeah, I think I'll borrow er one of Sue's one of I, are There's more on there than what they thought or something, apparently keeps her cakes in it, so I said come then Are you on lates next week? No Mo Oh I just wondered, here are Ah? I just wondered if you had anything planned for the weekend that oh What number is Nigel at then? Erm, oh sixty erm, sixty three Oh that's better then innit? so what end'll that be then? Swallow end Who? Swallow end, erm if that's it then I can er write her card out later on Oh if you like I can put it through her door Oh that's alright she must be about er sixty four, five I suppose Ah? I say she should be about sixty four, erm eight four Is she eighty four? Yeah dunno Ah? no they're alright aren't they? Do you like them? Those other ones they come off it I think What ones? Walnut No, I just really Yeah They always did taste a bit funny you know, didn't they? I mean they Is this still running is it? Yeah Battery gone flat though is Is it? Yeah Ah Yeah All of it? Yeah, don't usually get them for nothing three, four out, half a dozen No tomorrow, I went into town and then I went to Emma's Oh did you? Yeah Did you have a look at the wallpaper? I forgot all about it, when I got to Emma's then I realized, I'm going over I don't usually buy that sort anyway but the last couple of They've got so much work, those safety ones that's it, yeah Cor they dunno well they would I oh dear all depends on the nature of they won't need If they thought it was that bad they would of picked it up on the M O T wouldn't they? That's what they said, cos I, I said is it something that has to be checked regularly, he said no, it doesn't really go that often Yeah so erm something so you'd be paying out for some more tyres if you don't have that checked or anything Yeah ain't you? So Emma's given me his present to drop round, ha How long she doesn't finish work until about half past five Oh and in between time she goes to meet Gordon so er Oh yeah I don't know where they live, I know the court but I don't know whereabouts they are. No only where erm Mrs and that live and that's about it Done me ironing and got that out the way Oh yeah quite damp out there really, when I ironed it My Rice Crispies out of date, chocolate ones Where's Neil then? Gone down town to get a Butlin's erm brochure, whatever they call it Why's he hope to go on holiday then? Hope to go on holiday No Have you sorted out that tape? Ah? Pardon? What do you want steak and kidney pie and erm a bit of potato? or something Yeah alright then there's a potato in there, thought rather to use that who? oh yeah they've got something like that down erm they roll it out on the dance floor upstairs something like that I suppose That's right, it's on now that is. talking is it? What's it called love? Neville's . Who? Neville . Oh! You got any first class stamps anywhere? Yeah? I'm a first erm class si stamps. stamps? Yeah. Cos I've got I've got a couple here twenty four pence. fifty, fifty pence? No, I got some green in here. Erm two pence. No I can't find any. . Here are, er Four at twenty four pence and two at two pence. So that's . And that if I post it tomorrow Friday. So if I put a twenty four one on then it could leave that like that, right? Don't want her to pay any out at the other end do we? Oh yeah. You don't know what second class post is do you, first? No, I guess that'll be thirty four or something. The book. Twenty, a couple of twenty four pence ones here but Joy reckons it's more than that. No, just Yes I put a twenty four pence one on and a two pence one. Cos don't want her to pay any at the other end do I? And I post it tomorrow er, Thursday. Ah this pick this up in Derek's office today look. And if I just go to clean and erm This what do you reckon? Yes. Where they going to that? Wembley aren't they? To see er Queen. Oh that's right! Easter Monday. And the other one's Simply Red I think. How much did they pay for a ticket then, how much? I dunno. I have to ask when he comes tonight. He put that up today. He thought about it last week but it's pretty hush hush I think. Yeah. Oh dear! Have a look,. Yeah, he got something, you know? That's right. Ian and I, just going with six of them or something. Or perhaps he's going up in his van or some I dunno! Well cos, you gotta get in early cos everybody else is sort of erm They were so popular last year. Cos the er you know they'll be Yeah, it had football tomorrow. Mm. Is it on? Yeah. Yeah. Just switched it on. Playing. Oh yeah. Take these couple of tapes off. Oh yeah , yeah! It is. Yeah , that's my brilliant idea! I'll take it football. Yeah, take it to football. Oh yeah, see how people sort of natter on. Natter on, yeah. You know sometimes . Fight! And swear!! The first tape we played back and it was him eating toast! God, it was like ooh it was terrible! Yeah. So, as if the blooming whole thing was distorted or something. Sounded like,was it? Ooh ee ooh! Ooh eh ! I shall remember that now. Ee er! So you won't be able to wear his bottom ones out will he cos he ain't got nothing to grind on now! We didn't turn the window light on. I says this week . Yeah, didn't want to trouble you. What time you coming up? So he's standing right the other Yeah. end. You'll have a light there and a light there, all on Ooh! together. That's great isn't it? Because that switch there Yeah. Is to the entrance. is that light that light. Yeah. What this one? Yeah. Well I ain't got nothing yet. After Christmas . No! Don't make no difference. Well, the only trouble is if you did put that one I must admit. Yeah, what I thought see, if you come out and I'm covering the door and this light on you'll be able to see straight away. Yeah. Yeah. See look if I sort of turn round Yeah, like Briony and got she comes in here, so she Yeah. switches that on to sort out her . Yeah. Cos I got help her with that. See we could put the outside light there. , yeah just right. You sure it looks ? Well, if it's not right, know what I meant. They're not yours! They are! I bought those when we went to football! I was at the ! Oh my God! He dived on the . What I'll do is put your clips up the top here and then erm Burn them! just let it at the bottom. Don't wanna keep the chairs.. And then someone . Hey? Er I don't care! Don't you care? No. You saying about having so some chips, I think you could have had it in here! That's twenty five six. God! Could have had some in, some in here couldn't he? Could of had a bit of mash and could of had a bit of mashed potato and couple of eggs or something. Couple of sausages. Yes I know. We did offer him some ice cream but he said no thank you. No,. I never said that. Oh you had again didn't you? What? Them cheese fritters? Those They're nice peas. they are, mushy peas. Mushy peas. Mhm. They must squash them in the hand and just throw it in mustn't they? Well, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I'm off in to watch Eastenders then. No. Yep, yep, yep! Are you a good ? Like that. You try it . No, that's mine! Oh is it? Oh! Now what does Nigel want a climbing rose for? Eh? What does Nigel want a climbing rose for? I don't know. bought that anyway. How old? Yeah. Cor! Ah? I reckon my nappies! Thank you. Right thank you very much. Aha! Bye! Oh! That's got Mandy to work. Oh dear! Did you li What are you, what is there to do now then? I dunno. Mind your back. Okay. There's a hole in my bucket Do you want peas with it or not? Peas. , that one. Ah Christ I've only just got in mama! Oh you'll want half a tin won't you? You could store these for another two years mum. What is that love? It's got B dot B dot E October ninety four. Oh! Salt. Oh you want that switched off, okay. Oh That's it then. They're off. So what we That's the, that's the big one there. Yeah. Point. That's not, that's the light one That's right, yeah. that you've just taken out. That and the fridge one I'll have to take everything This one innit? What, what we'll do is I Oh if I cut that off there. Still wouldn't shift it dummy! I'll plug it in Aha. And you won't be using that again. No. And I'll rip them out properly af Thursday, when I take that one out as well. Okay. Alright. And that thing's jammed on us! Just plug it in . Alright, that's enough. Yeah. They're a bit old anyway! Bit old, this programme innit? Yeah. What did you want to scrub this. They come handy don't they? Mm. No, I thought you wanted one. Oh no, I don't need one, no. Alright. He's quite happy to undo the the squashed . Oh God! Friends? I tell you, I go I tell you Neil you're very perpetual. You stopped going . Mm. And a long time, innit? What? Well Starkness though. And you haircut Haircut at last! What's up Doc! Yeah, I think I know it as well. All gums. Goody goody gum drops! Gummy! Oh yeah, that's good ! Gummy, gummy his first name. Well I . Now that's a loaded question innit? Gonna put foot in his mouth now! It's not,on my side of the story! Are you gonna put your teeth in Neil? Eh? Both feet gone! Don't on the plate then. There's no room is there? No. Want some of it taken off then? Yeah! Go on! If there's anything on that doorstep, give us your plate. Oh ee ee! Christ, only wanna fit in my mouth! Ta. Th they let me have these scales. I was working right up to then. So then you put and then pop them in to Ya. Oh! I'll go look in there when that . Mm mm mm, mm mm . Can't take them in there can I? Yeah, something . Oh I should get something now. It'll definitely be here won't it? Don't you worry about it. I made last year's. Take some sandwiches, a flask of tea. Yeah. What do you reckon? Mm. Egg sandwiches? Enjoy them won't you? Yeah. That's if I have had any left and he notices they're there. Jammy tyke! before. What, everything okay, yeah? Well I mean the sooner that's . Chips and everything else on it. Yeah. Mind! Drinks when you brush your glass on them. Well I, didn't you do that mum? I couldn't understand what? Well they can be tipped back in the tin then can't they? Mhm. Mash that in and you can have butter on if you wanted to. No roast potatoes will be fine. Yeah. Wha They can throw dinner on this. Mhm. Shall I take quite a few egg sandwiches alright? Mum? Eh? I'll take quite a few egg sandwiches. Yeah, I'll make a load. Yeah, I expect egg ones . Dunno! In about quarter to six or something isn't he? Quarter past five. Quarter past five? Yeah. Down the site bloody thing! I'm gonna cut a load and go pick David up I suppose innit? Mm? Ta,. Oh no! No! I want my mug. Alright? You're afterwards aren't you then? They me , they're doing a good job! Well so have you then! No. Don't forget at quarter past five. No, mum said quarter to six! I'm just correcting her! Right then. ! That's right. Ha? So I erm what did you say Neil? I say, not in there Neil. What's what? What's for what? Tracksuit bottoms. Which ones? The boys ones there. I found that in there. Yeah. Is there anything inside? What this? Yeah. Why? I just wondered. Cos that was wa , wet as well. Only Carl's lighter. Who? Carl's lighter. Oh yeah, so I put my lighter in there my er tracksuit bottoms or something. Oh I see. But now it's run out I don't bother. There's lighter up here. Doesn't work. Why, what's the matter with it then? You go to light it. See, just keep going so the flint's gone. Oh! That's gone home now. Here are mate, let's have a look at it. . Still, bit cheap to buy ain't they? Only thirty pence aren't they? Well I shall use my black . Eh? I'm gonna use my black one. Oh yeah. Twenty for a pound. Oh yeah. Had it a long time haven't you? Eh? Dunno. Yeah, I can go out mum? Eh? I can go out. Anyone want a cup of tea? Yes please. Eh?scratch her eyes out innit? It's about your , could of caught that look. Oh don't start ! Dave's all lovey-dovey when Nig is around ain't he? Yeah. Showing off though. Try to impress. Well I'm glad anybody has a bit of . Do you want a cup of tea Neil? Well I dunno. Right! Erm I'm going to the bank let's wake this lot up! Where do you go for that, Bath Travel for that then Neil? Where? For that brochure. Bath Travel, where's that? No, where do you get the thing from then? What? Butlins? Well I got it from that travel agents Oh! er the one In the precinct? by, yeah, by Boots. Oh yeah. Do you want Take that. put it put it in that one. Ooh! I dunno what we're talking about here! Eh? Could I take the sausage rolls and chicken to school? Do you wanna take something strong now Nig? Yes please. Right. I've got some. Do you mind! Your dad's Well she used to come in erm May to December didn't she? Mm. Chip butty then? Eh? Want a chip butty? Mm mm. for a long time Mm mm. have you? No, cos I've never had chips have I? They don't have meat in do they? I don't think Joanne's done so well in bar now. Why? Just so they can have a day off or something. One of the girls have got bronchitis so Mm. Is she going in the car? No, she's going by train. Cheaper than the car by the time you've paid petrol there and back again. What are you watching . Why? Just wondered. Who? Six thirty. I thought you'd already . Otherwise I'll walk home, I've done it before. No. There's round that all out there later on then? I should put a tape No, by pass Brian. Go and see the if you wanted them. Well I can for two hours mum. Mm? What? Those are done properly, not just slapped on anyhow! Five pound for two hours. Your cheap then ain't you? Very nice! No, five pound an hour. Oh. And whatever time I'll Yeah , why not! Would you rather have a cup of tea? Tell you what I'll charge you qui , twenty quid for the whole day. What? Twenty quid for the whole day. Oh well Emma only charged that to do the lounge! I know. And that was wallpapering that was! I know, I'm gonna paper. Cos I'm hard up for money mum! Do you want a cup of tea as well? Mhm. There's only four of us isn't there? Mm. Does dad want one? Yeah. I'll go and look for some wallpaper . Got enough there ain't you? No. No? Men, ha! out there. Yours and dad's over here. Finished in there. Do you want this do you, anywhere? Er stick that up there. I expect the oven's turned off. I can hang on. No, but I expect it's too hot in there crack the dishes. It's alright. Jesus Christ! What? Mm? Oh, bloody ages! Neil phoned me. I don't care! Hopefully I so first, so don't give me that! And Neil did cos he was on when you was out there. No he didn't! Yes he did! He didn't! Where are you going to football tomorrow night? Why, do you wanna come? With dad and with Dave the butcher. Is there enough room for me in the back, and Neil? Cos I'm not going to Reading tomorrow so I'm, I might as well go to football tomorrow instead use that Oh yeah. money. Erm ? Yeah. Well he's a bit scared though and we assured him there's no violence and Ha! What's that lovey? Joanne and He's got a full pint mug! Are you going to football tomorrow? Eh? Football? Yeah. Is there enough room for me to go? Of course there is! What about Neil as well? Er yes! Okay. I was gonna go to Reading but erm Sally-Ann can't make it cos there's someone ill at work. So erm the money that I was gonna you know, use for that I'll use for the ticket. Yeah, but you're going off early though, what time's Neil finish work then? Well no, Neil said quarter six we were going. But I mean, he can, he's at King's anyway tomorrow so it won't take him long to get home. Well you can pick him up on the way then couldn't you? Yeah, what time does he finish work then Jo? Well about five-ish, but I mean he'll be ready for quarter to six Er or whatever time you need to go. Well i if you if he takes some old clothes with him love Mm. And then see we , he'd probably wanna get home and then get changed properly. Have something to eat quick. Or else a , or else half past at the latest, set a time. Yeah,, thing is, you won't be able to get . Yeah, it only takes him about ten minutes to get home. Can always do some sandwiches. Yeah. Oh yeah I erm make your own boiled egg sandwiches. I'm seeing him later anyway so Yeah. I'll find out more about it. Well take him, take him so love. Yes. Okay then. Mm. Cos yes, something down there's gonna be pretty dear innit? Yeah well they got what they, what we got I tell you. Is there? Yeah. We'll take your flask. What about tickets? We gonna have to get tickets when we get there? No. How will , how will I know then? , yeah. Dan . Okay. Great! Alright then? Great! They will have to pay innit? It's too late! Just as well you ain't coming! Eh? I dunno, might sneak in the boot yet mate! Well, the back's on the ground straight away! Have to get your dad to get a ro , roof rack and put it on there. a big belly Michelin Michelin woman! Alright? Cheers mum! Oh Joanne don't want any does she? No. She don't blooming want a cup! Eh? She don't blooming want a cup! No, she said . You never told me that when we phoned up them . Pardon? What one? Well course you leave them alone didn't I? That's what they bought it for! Obviously confused ! I didn't take . Alright, thank you. Well she Well she said don't touch that it was now mine. I said that! yes I did! You weren't listening I don't expect. Knowing you do Why? Have you told her dad? Don't, now just don't start up! Did you touch them? No. Oh what a shame! It was tough. Is that right? now perfect they'll be They will be. Not this is the go , like my sister Alma Mm. when we used live at we lived down Nissen huts right? Why on earth, cor ! Jackanory! stories, doesn't it? No, no, no! Anyway I wish you met erm you know your mum's You know more than me! Has she gone out then? Yeah! She told me, did I tell you? Oh did she? Yeah. Cos I know about her. Oh yeah. Got a heap of . Oh has she? I don't where she got them and I didn't ask ! But anyway Well she bo must of bought it. you know that band , yeah well, we used to have one come from the down, he used to tap onto the erm tried to get off and everybody stuck to it. Stuck to it, yeah. Yeah. These people, aren't they brave? Was it down there? No. No,. . Er, and went on the you know la la la like this Like, what like? that's alright. Oh but I No. yet? Now you just gotta juggle which one it is. Still on Nig. That's a new one cos there's not much Is that the ones out the front is it? Yeah, they bits or something. That's right the best one's out there. That in there? I thought, yeah. Yeah. So we got another one of those right back? At the back, yeah. Ah, ah ah ah . Will try and get the screwdriver. Yeah, it's in my pocket. Is it? I thought you did work on something. Ge February ninety two. Oh. I've gotta shove it down. Well I think you want to . So now you want a bulb to go in there now. Well I suppose . What I'd do, as long as you actually ha for instance and light er A light, yeah that's right. In the kitchen area. What's that? Good heavens! Oh yes, cos erm It's a bit dark mum! Yeah it is a sixty, you see it on the top don't you? It is. I was gonna put it in that there but it's too bright so Do you get any potatoes? Ooh yes! It were How much? four twenty five. Right. They were, they were . Don't want new ones! No. Just old ones. on the market don't she? Try selling them cheaper. You ain't got a water in there Nig? Don't get a lot of water there. Maybe I'll get little bits, I dunno. Well I want to clear that room really .. Mm? . They're not much good are they? Well as soon as I find out they'll have ! It is unfortunate . Yeah, I'll to , try and get your tools. Oh they're handy ain't they? No. Oh. Suppose you can't interfere with the weather there I'll get your porch light. In the attic. Yeah, but I know you wouldn't pay, pay for Well we got no pocket there. still not long enough. This is not long enough. How many times ? So we're getting there. Oh yeah. Where's all my screwdrivers gone. I don't know!! Over them Dunno mate. It's on the little table. Where? There. Where? Putting that . Shall look alright . Yeah! Spend more time out there than they will out here! Aha, they're joking ain't they ! Did you want any peas or anything with that? No, no, no. That's You sure? okay. Are these, are these and er ? Just like crisps. Nice. Start what ? What? Oh! It's Tilly. This . Bye! Don't worry I'll walk home. Oh yes, Gillian! Yeah! Thursday night, yes. Yeah, we're not I'm not in tomorrow night. Yes, yeah. That's right, yeah. I sa yes, no not I won't finish, I in the meanti , I told Brian so he he most likely ringing li er Lynn. Thank you. Yeah. Steve. Yes, yeah. Yep! Thursday night. Yep! Here you go . That's alright. No, that's alright. At half past eight, I'll okey-dokey. Okay love it's Yeah what he no,wha what the trouble is we got erm one o one our chap's retired and erm I'm gonna go there for the , just ask him for it, just to say, you know have a, have a quick dri , now if you're popping over to . Alright poppet. Okay, okay love. Yeah, see yo , see you soon then. Alright. I I, I hope so too. At least some of ours got their money back. Alright? Bye bye sci Yeah see you Thursday . That was Gillian. So what you doing? Playing Thursday instead of Wednesday? No. Oh! This is the for dad. Oh I see. Take, those two there's. Anything else? Erm . Oh! Oh! Stop! Well you will feel your, your gums won't you? Mind you don't burn them or else that'll be a real terror! Yeah. I hope the light bulb shines the right way Nig? Down hill. See you later then. Cheerio now. Night night. I won't need my keys will I? No. Yes, no, no . Should see him when he acts right. I lost my wallet . How you getting on , alright? No,. I am. Going down the pub? Yeah. Where's the cheese box? Where's the cheese box under there? Yeah. Oy! Ah no! I've got to set the video again. What happened? Sorry! Well what did you pull out? That's up is that it looks that way . . But that's not like, that does fit somewhere. What? I know, but it's switched and it's still working? No, that off your hand there Nigel. Oh no! Set each side. Yes. Yeah, that's where you keep It's not! Well what is then? I dunno do I? I don't know. That's the . It's alright there now. . Do you want, do you want er . The Eh? Oh well! Eh? Electric shower. Have you got electric shower? Er, yeah. Why's that Nigel? Well you're gonna, gonna use it a lot anyway. No, you're not, I am! Take one if we do of raffles and Go out and pose! Well it's pretty good innit? That's good that! Yeah, it's good. Eh? Eh? What was that again? That was . Still it ain't bad. No, oh God ! Have you then Nigel ? But, yeah eight. Oh what's on that er Don't worry about that. Don't worry, I know what it is! . And I've gotta do the title again now. I just don't know how you can finish that title now. No I ain't done nothing! Oh which is ? It's twenty one thirty nine. That's alright then. But that's not actually . Sorry, shall I switch it off? No. That lady was in the Kray Brothers. Yeah. Spandau Ballet as well. Was it? Adrian , what a name! Well I'll wash up the . No, leave it there. Leave it there for a couple of days . Well you put them, I mean he didn't he? He did. And he come out of here, out of nick. Yeah, I picked all the yeah. You're going to Shaun's club tomorrow Eh? night. You what? Near where Shaun had to go tomorrow night. Why's that? He didn't supply those. Well enough people have a bundle do they? Eh? No, shut up! Enough people there to have a bundle! They thought they'd have the Mexican wave when someone go get, get up and go to the loo! A load of . Yeah, which are you? You should of got in a bunch of ! Yeah well you shouldn't have hey? No. He said on the old shillings I want Neil's bed but it weren't that cos he's bit of a fun to, you know , you know Oh yeah. And he's got all , don't think nothing of getting to any trouble with it, you know. He can say he got up now, waiting for the loos so he thought he it was a Mexican wave ! What? Ha! For murder. There's a lot of interference on this innit? On where? On the telly tonight, cos of the weather I suppose. Switched to . No. Blowing out ! I'm gonna have a . Did you hear what say, get on alright with the toast? The law can't win! Eh? I ain't . Perhaps it's the bulb is it love? No. It's er something . Got a light? Where's the out of Nigel's there. Oh, is he? What was it then, a fuse? Oh! Dee dee dee dee dee dee dee . Alright Nigel? He thinks a bulb might have blown. A bulb is it? Ooh right! What about those? Yeah. Go outside anyway. So what have we got here? It's not that one. It's on here now. You tested it? No, I didn't test it, now power. It was like this. Yeah. What you done with the lights? And yet two went off? Neil? Come on get in! Outside. Get that window over That's right. there's enough light. Stand back and admire it that's what I want to do! Don't want those. Is this a true story, yeah? Yeah. This is true story. Well it's not a story. Some of it was on about that man there, face got her to stay the night then he was gonna watch it on telly in the er lounge. Maureen's late isn't she? Makes you worry about their don't it? Yeah. How did Nick get on at darts last night then? He won. Oh! Who was they playing against then? Viking Who? Viking And er Oh yeah! We're up the club. club. What one? Could be a bulb. Mm? Could be the bulb. Could be the bulb? Mm. Blew it. You might as well just do it. Aha, I think so. That's true enough. Can I try the torch out then? Well I don't know. Doesn't show a reaction. That's right it's . Are those wires connected to tho those erm No. Just like the Dagmar How long ago was this happened? About eighty nine. Oh yeah. They found that horse didn't they? Gone missing. Oh yeah. What horse? Erm Shergar. No it's the name of a horse it, it's about to give a foal or something and erm somebody took it and they found in the New Forest. Oh yeah. Quite a good place for you know. Yeah. It weren't oh, what's his name was it? Not Shergar, no. No, that other one. White one. Yeah. Was it? Well you know, cos you see it on there didn't you? No I haven't watched it! Oh! What, I don't think they look much like You alright? But I'm gonna mess about. Did you watch ? No, it's a so Course you can't focus on on us it's taping the programme innit? Yeah. Well can't you just use that then Nigel? I'm burning up! Just a minute! No,. I'll sta , I'll stay in here right? in here. Well no it won't. Yes please. It's on his coat now. What do you reckon to these erm, these then Nigel? Ha? What do you reckon these ? Dunno. Have a look at the back. How can you, how can you trace it back to the owners? Take it all out start again. Take that little bit of wire out down there. What little bit of wire? These bits. No, no, cos I just said are you getting on with it Nigel, that's all look. it's , take that right. What do you reckon to those? Which one's that then? Ah . Tell you what I'll do I'll tape it on the e end of that er Total Recall. Eh? Will you get on that ma , has it got a long play ? Probably. Do you want to give me your plate love. I'll come and help you. I don't know, did I? You seem to go Alright! Alright! He put it on it timer not me! Alright! I just wanted to know! That's all! No, I don't know! That don't seem very bright does it? That's better Hello, oh Tavari what time is it mate? Nineteen, twenty past, kick off Alright you don't have to make an issue out of it You gonna use the tape up to there are you? Yeah you don't have to no, that's er, that's first prize that's, that's how much you win, ah? Twenty past No, it even says in here, it says look, there well may be groups of supporters in different categories who'd like to arrange seats together, unfortunately not be able to do this unless you are prepared to wait until the end of the main selling period Alright They won't be able to do that to be honest cos they're not gonna go are they? I don't know Eighty thousand, eighty thousand Oh about time to Boo, who's he? Come on, come on You want a chew? Take one of these they'll make you feel better oh no don't this is just say no Yeah Or give us here a bloody mint Ah? Just got him to give me a mint gasping for it I was saying to this bloke at work West Ham must be the only positive transfer to give West Ham pay for about the last twenty five years laughing up their sleeves, can't even bloody sell anything, but sell them at a profit. Who will they sell? Gary, Gary Oh and then get Mike come on, come on, come on, come on, come on, come on I say well it was just a surprise really Alright? but they're all money, money, money aren't they? Yeah I know but Do what? boo Hooray, come on come on come on you reds If they got, if they're not gonna win tonight, if they don't beat Bolton I'm gonna tear my season ticket up look ah You're not even a season holder are you? Next year I will be next year I will be, they should win tonight, I hope so Yeah, yeah They were also saying about how good he is when they were interviewing Yeah that's right, yeah come on you reds, come on you reds mind you as if no I never saw him playing no come on you reds go on oh crikey in the first minute, bloody hell,come on then come on you reds Go on Go on Jason Jason go on yeah No it's What? it's offside Joanne you warm enough? Yeah Alright oh dear well play, come on then come on you reds, come on you reds, come on you reds That's yours David come on now good throw that goes to waste I just laugh don't miss it, what a miss Ah? It's alright come on that's where those yeah yeah you go Cor Jesus Christ no fag ash is on again Yeah, well I knew that now lighter for you, fuel you can use Can you? Yeah, you can use air freshener Yeah any aerosol Really oh blimey, well I didn't know I know as much as I know cos I watch this this morning What a blasted programme eh? but he was like that with it Was he? as he came in I didn't see No, you were out in the kitchen erm he went and I thought oh don't you dare Oh that would of done it well I dunno I, I I just can't Oh you can't be but I did somewhat think You what? I did somewhat thought I Well But the say say Yeah abusers Mm die the first time they've tried it Really? Yeah What the erm I mean see it inexperience the the other one got asthma, oh damn Yeah erm, but this one hasn't has he? No, got eczema Eczema, yeah oh, now what about you getting something for tomorrow then, cos you'll have to take something, you can't go there without anything even if you bring it back, you must take something, ha no problem in a bag is it? is a buying rolls Do you want me to cut out these date ones? Yeah why not , yeah anything that's relevant, I mean if it goes on till then we can only use it twice can't we? Yeah, well it seems stupid not to Yeah that cat knocked that plant down, did you know? What plant? You know I said she'd cut down her plant like I had Oh yeah The cat knocked it down Oh well and er broke it all erm, there are a lot of toiletries in this one Yeah, oh well well it's all toiletries in it Is it? What is it? Erm, Coffeemate Mm Right You wait it'll come in a minute can hear the bloody television, it's true though, if we didn't have our television on, all we'd listen to is theirs innit? Mm mm good job he went out did you hear that banging er Yeah some it, up there or something computer games innit? Is it? I don't know it's a pain I know that, I mean we don't want to hear anything do we? Oh I don't know what's his name is, what's his name? Who? My old lorry driver Your old lorry driver? The lorry driver From where? oh I don't know his name, oh dear who's winning here? The woman Colander That's er cars, stands for cars don't it? Cars or motor bikes Yeah going round corners yeah, well we're safe at the moment erm take it back and see what comes out yeah I, if he gets a present and he don't wanna show it, there's a scream I wondered why she ain't gone out today, she hardly ever stays in does she? No, I wonder where she's put the dogs? Dunno yeah but it don't mean to say that there's a lot come out, it could only be that lot, couldn't it? Mm I mean you can't if you overload the kids you can't have four dogs in there thereof, well you wouldn't thought of that would you? Really yeah I can hear her June well it won't be will it? Ah, noisy little bastard ain't he? Yes he is I suppose Eh? if he doesn't really see that much of his mother No, can't do can he? he wants all her attention when he does see her Yeah, but then the times when she could be with him she's buzzing around in the car so what Oh yeah I know, what I'm saying is you can somewhat understand he's a noisy bastard T A T E R N Double T Yeah, cater, mater, that sounds A R T, no there's only one R, count well I just hope he brings one thing home be interesting this bit on a bigger one won't it? Ha well if he can't do, if he can't bring nothing that man, which I'm sure he will I shall go and buy something, I mean that thing of Scott's won't be any good without the appropriate thing will it? It's gotta be portable you see, that microphone of Scott's Well does it have to be portable? Well it's gotta be portable Why? Well cos it can't only be in here or in there, it's gotta be everywhere innit? Gotta be, much simpler anyway Simpler, yeah Yeah, but erm, carry around, I mean you might want it at a minute's notice Withdraw, no W I T H no withdraws Withdraws, you reckon No I didn't have it I had one of the W dish water Dish water? Mm, oh Oh I must remember to take that film out Is that the finish of it total? What? That jumper? Yeah Oh is it? Of course you've done the neck I suppose Mm Oh oh don't want that then do we? Oh no look at her Oh no Well it's a good cause innit? I didn't mean that I mean this Oh, what's happened now then? You put the light on don't you? I should think they would, so would I missus Oh well they won't win Why? Because they're favourites they won't win Oh I see, aha, yeah, probably right Give me just a little more time and our love will surely show Heard about this have you? Yeah Oh I haven't a green frog has been the mascot Oh I haven't heard anything about it at all there he is Oh yeah, oh I don't know that's very loud next door isn't it? Mm what are they deaf in there? Be interesting cos you can hear exactly what they're saying, mm I say people like Simon and Doreen who don't erm televise much and you've got the telephone you told me don't you? Erm The other day have that other one there Oh it could only of been at five thirty Mm they won't go yet They might not go all night, but er Well they were doing it at eleven o'clock last night, it must of been something like that because I heard every word Yeah over that I mean sometimes you want to sit quiet and you cannot can you? No Yeah, well I dunno, do it all properly I must do all my bits and pieces tonight, I haven't done them this week, oh let's have a look at the poll tax, because I thought there was one more, I'm sure there is Yeah Sandra wasn't sure, I don't know, I'm sure there is Yeah there is turn on that and I've done mine But the kids are changed these days you know The kids are what did you say? Changed Well I don't not right is it? Like, I would never of thought of yeah, what you talking about him next door? Or thingy Well both Both , but this one next door Bev is pushed from pillar to post Yeah I mean he wants loving he's a very kid where the mother's got to go to work he wants loving and I mean let's face it if he is still with the old grandmother, it's, that's a different world as well innit? Mm But this kid goes haywire and a lot of them do I mean he's all crash bang wallop isn't he? There's no Wayne is though Wayne yeah but she, she was his neighbours and that don't she? That one down the road aren't they? Yeah And all that, or at Betty's or, what have you, I don't think she'd leave them with the mother-in-law No but she leaves them with the neighbours or a neighbour, but I mean it's all different to bringing them up yourself, innit? Gotta be, there a, it's a complex really because nobody will agree, erm, give, bringing up a kid will they? No Nobody and I don't ever think people will bring up somebody else's the same as they would their selves, I, I don't think it's possible for anybody to do it, I mean look at Julia when she was a, that childminder with that Kerry No she didn't care Julia didn't care a sod about that kid, she'd let her to scream on, stand in the middle of the garden screaming, indoors screaming and she said to me I have no feelings for her whatsoever but she took the bloody money every week and this is what's so wrong, nobody knows how she er was as that child, only people like us who would hear Mm and all Julia wanted was more and more and more money, there was a conflict on how many gran children she could have and sometimes she had five in there, one of them which was then very small which she had to spend time feeding and that and that was Kerry Mm well those others, three of those, somebody else's children plus her own ran total riot out in the garden, but I mean there's not enough people to come round and do spot checks even if they're allowed, I don't know whether they're allowed to, but they've I don't know if they can No I don't, but nevertheless nobody knew only people like us and the neighbours, how that kid was every day when her mother to the T S B and her mother according to Julia had her because it was the done thing her mother, her own mother wouldn't have her, Kerry to look after her and I know that for a fact because one time when Ross was ill, Julia said I can't have her and she said oh god I suppose I've got to go and beg my mother to have her now she did, but the woman said to Julia, I mean she wouldn't give up her job, they had a four bedroomed house, two bloody great cars, eleven cats Mm and er, I mean what she saw of Kerry was, she dropped her here at quarter to nine, she picked her up between five and half past and the rest of her she saw around kid, the rest of the time she saw her own kid and er Julia was to have her until she went to school, so I mean how can there be any bond there, which there can't, but the mother said herself I had her because it was the done thing so I mean it's, it's today innit don't you think? Mm I mean all that kid do was scream, scream, scream, scream, I mean Ross wasn't the best one to be with, cos he was selfish and of course in Julia's eyes he never did any wrong but Kerry come off worse all the time and I said childminding is fine and it's necessary but the people, you know that, that people can't know people and Julia was a spoilt brat so Mm I mean you must, if you're looking after a little girl, you must in the end, unless you've low and detest children, or unless you're out purely and simply for the money, I mean how can you Not get a bond. well how can you not get somewhat attached to a child, I mean of course there's children you don't like, like adults you don't like Yeah, but then you still, if you see them every day That's what I mean you get somewhat attached to them Julia felt nothing for that child, she didn't like her, she didn't hate her, I mean she, she didn't she just felt nothing cos that's precisely what she told me, that's her words, not mine, you know and I find then, that, she shouldn't be a childminder No that's my instant reaction, instant Mm that Julia wanted money more, more money, I mean he worked every hour that god gave at , so his money must of been decent, had to be I don't think daddy would of let them oh I don't know cos Julia was living with a bloke before that, I don't think they'll of had any say in it Oh and from what I understood he was already married anyway, never, never was mentioned here, but I did hear it, whether it was true or not I'm not say it, but I was told that he was already married and divorced to marry her, that was what I was told, no I mean I don't know, but but I'm damn sure that I know I hope this fucking kid don't play with that every day That's alright, play with it, there's no point in saying anything to them Bev it's now got to be proven and I say, if I can get it done and I can get it sent off, then they will point me in the right direction won't they? Oh yeah That's the, that's the whole point, you, you have to start somewhere, yes I can give her a bit of paper, yes she can throw it in the bin, it's made no difference, in fact I think it's getting worse since I spoke to her, isn't it? She's had more people in there, the dogs have been left more hours that Ah that's just her situation Fair comment, but this week she was on holiday, didn't stop her and going and leaving them poor dogs in there barking their heads off and crying, for seven and a half hours did it? No I mean poor dogs and this, I mean we've said it all before it's not viable, four dogs and a semi that you don't exercise, four dogs that er appear particularly one of them to be housed in the same little area, day in day out with a curtain on the door, so that there's not even light going in there That's so he can't see out in the garden That's what? So that he can't see what's going on, cos she thinks if he don't see what's going on he won't bark, but he cries but I mean she shouldn't have them there, she's never here so she shouldn't have them, I mean look at the trouble Alan had to get Jessie, because they worked, but Emma goes home every lunch time to see to Jessie from the bank, but I mean the woman one of them wouldn't let her have a dog, one kennels, which is how it should be, but I mean this one breed those three herself so, yeah I mean if you breed dogs yourself and you have three in the house of the same breed, what the hell do you want an alsatian for, as well but the whole point is she don't have them as enjoyment, she don't have them as company Yeah, they're just there They're their, their animals that's all like that chicken up the garden I mean I don't know what it's in, might be in a run, but being the place that is in behind that shed, there ain't that much space with a rabbit as well is there, you know, I mean, there might be a run on the floor, it'll be crazy to have a run on the floor because she's had rats Oh ain't she? yeah And she's had rats under that shed it ain't that long ago she said, she said she had them so I mean I can't see anybody with an ounce of common sense letting a chicken being on the ground, ground Well no who knows I don't know, I wouldn't, but who knows? You're back to that situation of commonsense again ain't you? Won't she? Safe from Safe from cuts, good heavens What? probably the er, poll tax are Right, that was worth it, weren't it? I think oh he's left out there his Oh it's bubbling away nice Stir him again then What again? It says stir occasionally Oh watch that dish, it's a bit hot that dish right no, just towels, good one, right whip it out for me then please, I'll have to leave it there because some of this is, still out there, ta well that's not bad, time wise No Oh I bet these kids find this thrilling you know, don't you? God Barking dogs next door barking dogs next door again, so I shall, plenty of material shouldn't we? Subject to material god, yeah The annoying, the most annoying thing about it Yeah is, is if she tries she can make it quiet in there That's what she's supposed to do according to the Citizens Advice Bureau, is to control them so that she don't annoy the neighbours Mm Now Sunday when I had her about that terrific barking, your father was the first to say, look she stopped it Yeah but she lets them bark on like she lets the kids scream on, and that is today innit? I think basically what it comes down to, it doesn't bother her So why should it so she doesn't care about anybody else Mm It can't bother her Bev because the amount of noise that we get through the walls is so bad and she's in it, she's actually there with the animals barking, so she takes no notice whatsoever of them No she's probably bloody used to it after all the years she must of had them, she tells can't she tells me they're all old dogs But dogs whatever age don't Well make that noise the way she said it that day was, they're old dogs, they don't need the exercise and they don't bark, that is the impression, impression I got It's not true so Now what's that point to spend an afternoon here no point at all is there? Not a lot Well there isn't any more is there? They wanna get that paper out Sorry? Do you think that put that paper through the what out in the garage? Yeah I dunno, right let me do this and then I'll have a look I mean I've got to do this because I'm not sure of it, done now innit? Mm I wouldn't wanna do it tomorrow, well only later afternoon but I mean if I have to put ear plugs in at night to get some sleep because of them, surely the authorities have gotta say something about that Well well for god's sake, I mean I often wonder about people who make noise like this how they would feel if we did do the same, but I still say because we've done our polystyrene insulation she can't hear us, it's worked in the reverse ain't it? Probably Instead of us, you know, instead of it blocking out for our benefit, I reckon it blocked out for their benefit somehow a hell of a lot of insulation, in here Mm a hell of a lot really, normally you wouldn't have the vinyl and normally I would think you would only put the tongue and groove not out of the polystyrene behind it and the vinyl, I can't see why people want tongue and groove that they go to all those lengths would you? No Well I don't think so tongue and groove is, is wood innit? I don't know I mean I don't know nothing about these things, what, really have to feel that we are the lot Oh, and Us Girls, do we want that? Well we'll see what's right That's wro , right then, eight o'clock, eight thirty, that's half an hour innit, er we'll have to turn it off then, er leave out the news and then put Casualty that's half an hour, that's an hour yeah, we'll have to knock out, just knock out the news because otherwise you've got to back and that ain't you? Mm Seven thirty right, let's see what's on at six, the Crystal Maze or, eh? I think it's oh on, the next generation,John Ireland, Robert Fuller, Ben Cartright is dead Oh his brother arrives in Boston before he, miners who want the miners families' ranch that goes on till seven thirty Oh bloody hell well other than that we've got There's a fair bit on tonight mind, isn't there? Alright. What have I got to do here? I don't need all that. Right! Right, I'm ready. Now Rib two. Make one. Rib four. Yeah. Rib two. Do you want me to read it to you? Alright. Will it change then? Rib Yeah. two make one. Rib four one make one. Yeah? Where have you got to? Rib two, make one. Rib four, make one. Rib four. Yeah? Rib four. Make one. Yeah. Rib five. Yeah. Make one. Yeah. Rib four. Yeah. Make one. Mhm. Rib four. Mm. Make one. Mm. Rib five. And just there. Yeah? Make one. Yeah. Rib four. Mm. Make one, rib five. Mm. Make one, rib four. I know. Ah! That's make one innit? Yeah. Mm. Make one. Mm. Is that a four or a five? Erm, a four. Five then. Mm. Make one? Make one. Mm. Rib four. Mm. Make one, rib four. Mm. Make one, rib five. How many you got left? You gone wrong! Mm. How many you got there? Well if I make one I got four. How many do you need? Eighty six. But I would of worked out to I had four left, I had to increase in one which would have left . Yeah, and then you had three and then you made one and to there, and that would have been right. Wait a minute. Er right, so what's going up here? One, two, three, four so that's makes eighty five. No, it's not! One, two, three Oh well ! Nine o'clock. What was on telly, something I wanted. That's it. Eighty. Well that's eighty three now cos I'm . So I've, I've gotta back to six haven't I? Gotta make eighty six ain't I? Ooh! I got eighty six but don't ask me how because I just don't know! But I know that I'm clever and I know that have it! But I how I got there is a mystery! Well you only gotta do it once more so Mm. . Are they really? Honestly and truly? Yeah! Well truly that's I gotta do that back ain't I? What a ! Alright, cup of tea? Please! Oh dear ! Oh bloody hell! That's all that bloody walking! I mean, people keep telling you you've gotta lose some weight, they don't tell me! What did Anne say about you? Look at her! Look at Oh her! Yeah, but come on there should be a bloody difference between me and her! She meant how slim you were. Exactly! Well! Not in relation to her she's . She was just saying look at her! Look at her! I know. Alright, what clothes you got? A little podge She's only a little woman! It's all relative. Not that sort of thing. Tall woman. Well, oh my God! Tall woman though isn't she? Mm? Lesley ain't tall is she? Ha! Don't want to improve ! Remind me not to go. No. . Na nee nee . Okay then. I haven't got holes have I? No! You have you? No. That's alright. Pardon? Yeah! Yeah ! Oh I dunno! This is good . Eh? Do you need this? Erm no. What's this a recall of last week? Yeah. Mm, bit of trouble there! Mm! Yeah, there was really. Oh Walt's gone ain't he? Been there a while isn't he? Mm. Putting his arm round the Queen! Yeah! We've just redecorated the hall and I Could I? I it needs a blimey! Oh it's here! And there's two up isn't there? What shall I wear tomorrow then? Well, I reckon your black skirt that's nice Yeah. and er some sort of top. And my new coat? The one he bought. Yeah. Or ? I like the hem on that black skirt it's look today. What, the little one? No! The long one. I like that very much! It'll look good with that coat. What coat? The black one! I got two black ones! Oh! Sorry! My long one? Yeah! Like that? Looks lovely ! It looks lovely! Well it's today's sort of thing innit? I want to wear my short black one! You can't! Be comfortable. I wouldn't! That other one looks so modern. The long, looks so nice on you! Oh yeah, but well I mean you don't wanna go dressed, too dressed. Don't I? Well I don't think so, do you? I mean, this is the temp job innit? It's up you! You wear what you like! But I think you wanna be comfy don't you? You know, really comfy Up to you, entirely!! See in the morning when you get dressed what you think. Do you want alarm put on? No. You sure? You better do. Ay? You better do. Well, you know quite seriously. Er It's probably the night you bloody wo , the day you over sleep innit! Well I did one morning. One night . I mean, I know it's late, it's twenty past eleven but Yeah I don't well, be rushing around. No, course you don't! Well I'll erm I wanna wake up. what time shall I er get him to do it for? What would you prefer? Erm Ay? Nine-ish would Nine. do. Nine would do, wouldn't it, nicely? I would think so. I mean you don't wanna be push, push I mean but at the same time you don't wanna be you don't definitely wanna be running around like a cuckoo head do you? No. There's nothing worse! You want a cup and tea and you name it. No, nine o'clock should be perfect I would think. Bloody dogs barking! I know! Howling! No it ain't it's a kid! No, I think that's a dog. It's a dog! It's both! Oh! He's shouting mummy Oh that's brilliant isn't it? No bloody sleep again! He's not happy kid is he? No. Not at all! Crying like hell there! Oh God! Probably leaving him to cry again. It's what? She's probably leaving him to cry again. Oh I know! Easy innit? What fo Well unfortunately a lot of that he's got to stop you know. Yeah, but you know what? If they had some sort of party in there he's gonna go over the top you know. Mm. And then she wants him to go to bed after he gets hyper innit? Yeah, but as I say a lot of that could be Doctor Spock's erm Well it could be her, she can't be bothered! Oh yeah, I know. Just when I never had my thing. Innit terrific ay? Had to get a blinking day off didn't he, that bloke? Well he isn't now though. Yeah, not today though. So as we said, it'll probably happen again! It happens, and happens, and happens! Dogs, kids and bloody shouting! Terrific! Love it! Really make you worthwhile coming home don't it? You love it really! Ay? I said you do love it really! Do I? Well, who knows I do, ay? Surprised at that actually! Dunno what to wear. What? You what? Just don't know what to wear tomorrow. Well, make your mind up in the morning. Got plenty of nice stuff. What? I shall wait and see. Yeah, well that's what I'm saying! Try and few things on and go from there innit? You'll come up with something. Yep! Right, nine o'clock alarm then. Yeah. I've got a spider in here! You what? I got a spider in here. Big one? No. What's he doing in there? An incy wincy spider! Oh bloody hell kid, go to bed! He shouldn't be up at this time! He's not! He's shut in his bedroom by the sound of it. Oh! Well do you wanna come in here? No! I think I'm tired enough. Where's Stopped. this spider then? He's under there. What? God! Put him, put him on the whole of when you see him. He's alright, he'll be asleep now. Oh it's not there, I can't see him. Oh! I bet I wear Yeah. Right? Well if you say that black skirt's alright I'm alright. Well, I mean let's lets face it you'll be sat in the car you're gonna get crumpled aren't you? Probably. But, yeah, what were you saying then? Er that white er, little top of mine with Yeah. erm the little vest one. Vest, vest? The one I wear in the canteen. Oh yeah. And my green erm bolly bolly with the black skirt. Yeah. Be lovely! Yeah, no, that'd be fine Bev. Really! Right, I'll have a little rest before I turn the T V off. I think. Well I'm going bed. You've got a what? I'm going . Ni night love. Oh! Ho ho! Not that cold though is it? No. Go to bloody sleep kid! Ooh! If only I had my thing! He's just like Ross isn't he? Mm. Can you hear him? No, I just heard the door go though. Yeah. Thing is, you know he's not next door to here, he's out on the in in the lawn area isn't he? Our lawn area. That's where the bedroom is innit? Well I wonder how much of the bedroom? Erm When you see Helen next Yeah, I'll ask her. ask her. I will. Yeah. Wanna know how much the bedroom is out there? No, I don't know. Cos it's cos if it's got I can't really remem Ay? couple of square feet I can't remember. it's coming into your area. Yeah. Maybe. So you might have the door to the kid's bed underneath that wall. See, he never used to be in this bloody room! He was on the other room when she came here. In the other room, at the other end. That's why I never heard weren't it? Mm. But then she changed bedrooms lo , when that bloody other bloke came here. But he's not happy kid! No. Oh! Yeah but the quiet ones . I dunno whether those people went you know. They must have done. Must of done tonight. Cos, I say the car was down the road. I've never known that! Never! Do you know what? Mm? I know it's a horrible thing to say Mm? but it's a shame nobody else Mm? got woken up last night. Sort of somebody's put the the road. If somebody wanted to get out quickly Yeah. and couldn't Yeah. and they went to the wrong door and said is this car anything Well tha , that's right! I mean erm I Because say Gail and Keith go got woken up at three o'clock in the morning Yeah. and said That's right! is that your car outside? Yeah. Well Alan did it here one, one time. Yeah. And it wasn't us. No, but you know what I mean? Yes I do know what you mean. Well It'll be unfortunate for the couple that, whoever got woken up Yeah. But it might do something. I know what you're meaning. Cos you dunno what Alan might have done. Ay? You dunno what Alan might have done. Well If that car was there and Yeah. It, I think he got out and I I do he , I said to you and your father how he got out I just dunno! Cos it's a very difficult road this. Yeah. But I think he did probably just, because when I got up er when I co , you see when I come down the stairs I can see through that window look Mm. and Alan's light was on in the hall, call it the hall and the car was there well a little while later he went. I think he got out but I don't think it would have been easy, there's that time this morning. And, I've never known these people put the car down by George's! So, knowing Alan, do you remember somebody used to park their car in front of Alan's gate when they went to London? Yeah. And he left a note on the windscreen. But I mean Alan has to go up to London! It's not long after six o'clock in the morning that he leaves. But er , I fully understand what you're saying. Really! Well I say some let's say Sandra wanted to get out Yeah. and couldn't and can't Yeah! Yeah! Right? Yeah. And she should be able to. But another thing is you see where Sandra lives, you saying that where she lives is apparently erm P C , now I don't know him, but she does he lives up the same road and when people park didn't she tell you this when we were coming down? No , I don't mean that Sandra, I meant this one! Oh Sandra over here? Right? Yeah. Let's just say she couldn't out Yeah. and she went to Claire and George tonight Yeah. and said is anybody staying with you? Oh yeah, that'd do it! That would do it wouldn't it? But, what I was gonna say was concerning them blocking these pavements if the I know as we I was there when she You were there when she said about P C . Well if we had some I know there's two policemen up round the corner here. Cos they walk down here, here Is there any one in ? Well P C I think is an older policeman. Yeah, that's what I meant. Mm. These are two young-uns I reckon they lodge up here somewhere. Not this road but round where Colin and any policemen isn't she? Ay? You what? The lodger, policeman. Who did? Linda. Yeah, she did didn't she? A nice one. I forgot that. Yeah. Yeah. But you see somebody like P C , being an older person he does it properly I suppose, is what Yeah. the answer is. He goes and knocks people's door and says you're blocking the pavement! Well if he'd have come down here that night, or that day when there was three cars in in the drive and one right across the pavement, and then that that big lorry on the pavement he'd have had them wouldn't he? Yeah. Went to bed and er of course the kid went berserk didn't he? And er god you should of heard him, god if it ain't Ross all over again, mummy, mummy and she left him there, as I said when they first came he was in the far bedroom, well now I suppose with all these people she's rearranged it indoors and he's in the one next to our house, and she's shouting at him and er it went on how, I can't tell you how long, I mean, Bev and I was talking through bedrooms you know Mm and er, it was gone eleven I would of thought, anyway he stopped and I slept like a log, got up at twenty past six, but erm, it's a strange thing because one of those came last evening and it parked outside George's, now I said yesterday, when Alan goes to work, it's not long after six normally to go up to London and that Mm and I said to both of them, I just don't know how he got past that second car in the road right, come out of his drive, I couldn't believe that he could of done it, but he did, because he went you know Yeah anyway last night, they parked outside George's so I reckon, I mean it's only us thinking he's put a note in the door because he will do this, because when a bloke used to leave his car outside Alan's gate, others, instead of the station Yeah Alan left a note on his windscreen but er, I don't know how he got out yesterday and I've never, never know him parked down the road, not at all, anyway we got, I got home and erm, I said to Bev you know, right go and phone Lesley see if she's in and then I did a bit of housework and then the phone rang, ooh, we was aiming to go out at one and that must of been ten to one, and it was Liz Oh yeah and er I said to Bev well you do what you like, you know, she went out, the first time she's answered the phone, since Yeah Anyway er Liz said can you come over like today so Bev said yes what does it entail? Liz got quite cross you know she's quite oh bugger it, you know, and er she said to Liz what's the hours? Oh I dunno you'll have to talk to Ian, she said I've been working Les done, er Les, Les told me eleven till three, it was half past eleven till three and er, so Bev was alright That's exactly what we do Yes, well Bev was asking, I mean I was doing housework, oh, I was doing bits and pieces you know, and er getting me coat and all that and er she was asking questions and all that and Liz said I'll pick you up at twenty past eleven, so Bev said alright then, so she come off the phone said she'd go and have a look and apparently erm, it must of been yesterday if, if Liz is telling the truth she said to whoever are you going to do anything about this? And he said oh yeah, so, I said to Bev well, they had the feeling it was haphazard or whatever the word be, anyway So she's going over about it she's going over at half past eleven and she said to me if it's not worth the money I'm not changing and er, I shall tell him that I've certainly got to go on the books you know Mm can't do it any other way, so I said oh I'll go and have a look, I've got to go down town and that's right that's right, I mean she's, she's took some money, or taken some money if, I mean she'll be home twelve o'clock if it don't suit her like Yeah she'll only get a taxi, if er, she thinks it not viable, but er, it, it to me, it just seems not buggering about, but I mean there are some places like that and There are people are quite happy to work there Mm and the pay is Mm pretty okay Yeah, well I mean I don't know what she's been earning this Liz, but oh where we going today then? yeah Who knows perhaps it's one of his days out God knows, I don't, well so we'll see we was late weren't we? Or later Yeah he's a bit like her sort of in a dream Did er he doesn't realize that you're sort of there seeing him did erm, did he ask you if you had a roof rack? No No a what? A roof rack, he wants to borrow one for Sunday, cos Susan's coming back look, anyway she asked me and I said no we've never had one, I don't think we ever had, I said I'll ask Doreen, so I asked Doreen and she said yes we have, but I'd have to ask Leslie first, so when Dee come back I said yes she has, but don't say anything to her cos you might not get it, but she's not getting that. No Margarette's got, erm the two bars hi Doreen Morning Doreen you know when you get two bars as opposed Mm to a complete effort Oh I know what I was gonna say on her Norman Gates , they're trying to clo close Norman Gates Yeah that's been in the erm Echo Oh dear me That's been in the papers the last few weeks there's a person down the bottom, you know in Paul's old house, their little kid goes there, I didn't know nothing about it. Yeah, their, they're still behind aren't they? I think they are actually yeah yeah I don't know Cos the other, that's it, that's, what's the one we've got up by us? What Walberdeen? I've go the Walberdeen one Yeah, yeah, is that a special school? Somewhat Oh yes it's not a normal one, but I don't No quite know no, I mean years ago that's where we all went that Yes area you see No Anton took over normal school yeah Anton Junior Yeah took over from Walberdeen Yeah, but er, it says two hundred and something for the two, seventeen was it? That's what the Echo says for the Yeah town and then when you go out and in villages yeah it yeah but actually the paper boy was late this morning and we didn't get erm mid week Didn't you? No if there's one here I'll take it, I've done up Howard's Had mine Monday night again No we didn't get one, I, I've gotta go to the post office today so any post that's gotta go there I said I'll take the lot and save tomorrow lot Mm Mm and er got, no we never had one cos Les said no I remember we didn't get one this week, cos she would of had a look through you know Yeah so if there's one here I'll have it Mm, what, where That's that woman who looks after Dee Dee's sister Mm does that and all, and er she had a da , she went to the authorities about that woman Yeah, did she get anywhere? Well I don't know, but she, I said, cos she's telling me about her coming, only three days up the hospital then she's gotta go back to her own place because Ian said she'd never managed, she keeps falling and she said this woman never went to see her once when she was in hospital, yet she's getting paid it look all the time, and she ought to go to see if there's anything she wants you see Yeah and er, I said, morning, I said er Morning has she been any better this woman cos she was always on about her, and she said no, she said I went to higher authorities about it, is that it? is letting another, so many off, don't know what it said I would think so, I don't know how many it was Eh? are laying some more off Yeah cos I no I, it would interview it was double figures but I can't erm, I can't remember eh? but er, as I say I can't remember precisely, I just scanned it and give it to Mick who was out the door like, Lesley put her house up for a hundred and twenty six erm, one how much is it? a hundred thousand, a hundred and twenty six thousand, hundred and twenty six thousand That four bedroomed detached? Yeah, yeah en suite She might get it Eh? She might well it's er, it's a funny thing that is because they all gone, now they were supposedly around a hundred thousand look, when they took it on and they've all gone, there ain't any there new ones But she still hasn't had any body in to see it No but it is a strange thing because sometimes you get my end of the market and you get somebody wants her end of the market, but erm Well the ones that have got more money, you know, the maximum money Yeah they're gonna go for the best there is Oh they're gonna go for and they're gonna go out of town detached Yeah, yeah as much as they can get that's right as opposed to Yeah I mean up our road they don't fetch that much, but there are one or two Yeah even bigger and more detached than ours Mm, yeah, but erm but, you know it's not even get a choice of two it's not even something like cos their er home yesterday look Jody went back to work and there was Bill and Scott He's still at school? Yeah Yeah, another year and er, she's got two more raises at school, they'll give him a credit and then wrote him a letter saying that he'll probably be expelled again, of course she went busting up there No wonder you said about the credit Yeah Thought he turned over Yeah a new leaf yeah , well the thing was he Peter gave him a key Peter gave him a key to come in the flat any time, you know, of course he did didn't he, he was well you know what he had in there, he's now got one girlfriend, he ditched Paula This one comes from Southampton, but he worked on it didn't he? Out of work again isn't he? Well I said to her my god you've got a load of you've got a load of problems Absolutely She has, she really has what? It's wet innit? It must of rained cos I, the thing here pots full of water Yeah, well it, well, I got up late, twenty past six, the kid was going berserk when we went to bed We erm, were they? The kid was Yeah my erm, screaming, shouting The garden was dry out the front on the top you know Yeah like summer and it's wet today Yeah, but erm as I say we went to bed her and I Mm and he was well Yelling she was shouting at him, didn't hear any dogs, and erm, it was gone eleven, must of been Yeah it was before it stopped and then of course I slept like a bloody log until about twenty past seven Yeah and you er I ov I overslept, well I woke up at five and normally I think if I go to sleep now and I sort of get myself awake but today I must of turned over Yeah and it was right on six when I got up yeah I don't have to come out until seven no near, well not quite seven so I mean I don't have to do a lot but I just liked to er take my time and you know Well I, I did nothing , I did nothing you see because erm, by the time I'd been in the bathroom done the sandwiches Yeah blah, blah, got myself a cup of tea, blah, blah, blah, got on me coat Mm out the door and that really is, I mean half past eight the other day it was awful Mm awful, but by god did he go, I said to Sandra it's Ross all over again, funny innit but she's got no But did she, did a time for him Doreen Well that is the trouble I expect you see he's pushed from pillar to post this kid Like the other one erm and when she has all these people in, he's up, he's not in bed No he, er, he, when he went, when he first come there, he used to go to bed seven o'clock Mm but she said, well the last lot that I've got but one of the times when we were not chatty, but talked, she said how naughty he'd got, but I mean she's never with him Well, cos I mean if he goes to school now and he didn't, he picked up things and then Well I, I he's not got he's, he's time for and well that is it innit, well if she's not got time for him Well what do you mean? Well that is it, not got the patience have they? But he weren't like that when they came he weren't like erm Wayne, Celia's Wayne, I mean he's been like it forever Yeah and Ross was rotten spoilt, you know, there's but this one seems to of gone haywire, oh does he go, but as I say she's changed the bedrooms you see, he used to be on the far end Mm erm with an outside wall but he's not Can't be helped with the can it in those rooms with the dogs No, well that boy had to a day off didn't he? Oh Anyway I'm hopeful that he'll be in today, because I mean the noise won't stop, so I mean when I report it, it just goes on Mm, mm it just goes on, but I said to Sandra where they've been parking all these cars, Alan over the road he comes out just after six o'clock and goes to London every day and I don't know how he got his car out with the No but he did, anyway last night when these, this car arrived, they parked it down the road outside George's, well I've never known that and I reckon Alan's put a note through the door Could of done, yeah but I, I mean Bev said you ought to go over at six o'clock in the morning, bang the bloody door Yeah make them get up and say can you move Yeah, yeah I don't know how he got out, I mean our road is so difficult anyway, of course there wa , that night there were two, yeah two when them, he had to get out in the morning, but er, I mean he did it, but I expect it was a struggle Mm you know you have to go backwards and forwards Yeah shake yourself round, but I've never know that last night Yeah sometimes when Rosemary was here, we didn't have any bother or anything but now and again somebody, she did their hair at the time Oh yeah dress making and er somebody would park outside our house, not by the drive, but there but to get in Les had to swing over and round That's it and then when they were he couldn't swing much so he had to go down and back in but er That's what you have to do it was only occasionally, I mean no bother with it or each other I mean this is virtually every day Yeah every day now, now I mean I don't know how many she's got living in there or what they've got living in there, they stay overnight and if they generally do that it's two more car loads Mm We've got British Telecom outside our house for six weeks Yeah the other morning I hell of a squeak of brakes and they had two vans and as you used to turn the corner by Swatons, the bollards are out Yeah the wrong, the wrong side of the road, of course you've got the blind bend, somebody had gone round there, somebody else was coming down old Whitton Road legally Mm, mm Oh my god and they sort of met and how they didn't hit I don't know but at the moment it's, well get the car back today it's er been away being done, cos somebody smashed into him Oh no he managed to pull it out, he, they smashed all the front wing in, he was parked outside a customer's house and all of a sudden there was a knock at the door getting to the end, you know the important bit of the sale Someone bashed you got and it was a young girl next door, a car backed out of her parents' drive Mm well drove out and turned, her bumper caught Mick's wing and right up against the wheel so imagine to pull it out to drive it and the driver said oh won't claim on the insurance she said, erm, I'll pay it, get three estimates and let me have them and Mick said it's gonna be about three hundred quid, well if it had gone through the insurance he could then have put in for a hire car Oh yeah of course he couldn't, he said oh well he said what's the point so he hadn't been working, earning money, he knocked a hole in the dining room from the lounge wall yesterday Well I, I, I have got cos I say and the worse is the mess is, my god Well I have to say Sandra that I would, alright you've got a lot of mess, but I have to say I'd sooner have one like that than well we've tongued and grooved Just as well we haven't got next door neighbour right joined on tongued and grooved or, or something pine for the kitchen wall, do it, pay it, forget it right, so, I mean I don't know what wood I mean we'd have, we'd have to see it, but I said to him look I said something's gotta be done, so I said to him shall we get Gary or somebody similar to do some Artexing in here and he said well with the coal fire and all that he said it'll, it'll get dirty Mm which it will won't it? Mm And erm, so I said alright then give me some suggestions, because when we moved out of erm Milton Avenue, Diane and Harry immediately did the walls wood in the kitchen, about the same size as mine Mm and it looked like Andrew's got that in his bathroom half way, that's what he said and then he's got a moulded piece along the top of it and then he's Yeah got the wall paper, it looks ever so nice does, does it? rubbed it all down and And that would be alright in a, in a bathroom you know Dean's got a complete pine bathroom Has he? he's boxed his bathroom in pine and that wood stuff and then varnished well I said to him It looks nice very nice it looks look I said I don't mind vinyl, I don't mind good vinyl the only good, the only one that, it was good for the toilet, but I got it in a pack cos we've got such a small single toilet Mm I got it in a pack outside Fads Mm but if you believe the proper price Mm I mean it was just three rolls I know it's terrible the price of it, weren't it? When you go, at Tesco's they've got a sale ain't they? that, that quick one Texas Yeah twenty five is it or twenty percent off or something, but I think I don't know some of the stuff when you Well I said to him look, I said I know I'm fed up with this thing next door, and I don't want to stay there, but Alan said that I've got to stay there, right, so I said to him, you know, we have to start doing something and I said to him something permanent because he ain't a handy man, I mean he'll do it, because I mean it's something like measuring steel innit? Let's be honest But you've got to keep on and that yeah, that's right, yeah but I said to him, I'll go and buy vinyl and we can come back into the same position, and he ain't no good at sticking vinyl up, I always go round with a bloody then I have to do something I suppose before we look round it'll be August we'll be off to Malta Mm and then it's the winter again and then he'll look round and winter comes so quick So quick and he said alright then I erm, I said well where shall we go and he said there's plenty of places Mm to buy wood I mean I know nothing As I say next we're getting this Phillip's this Phillip, he does a lot, I mean I don't like Phillip's but as I say my Ian says that, Ian says that That's a lot, I mean that wooden fence we had I mean, a lot of garden fences are dear, but it was a pound cheaper in the garden centre at Tesco's We've got one there Most of B & Q stuffs are cheaper B & Q's nice Yeah, where is that builders that There's one at Thatcham Thatcham? just outside Newbury you have to go on the M four B & Q at, one at Basingstoke Is there? it's on the dual carriageway as you go in on the But if not , otherwise I'm gonna go up the I mean I shout up to the bathroom, I mean There's a big one at Millbrook Tim's coming up to move the bath back and all that you see, this old bath and erm, do some pipe work, but until that's all done, erm, er, until this woman is sorted out, because if I find in the end we've got to insulate again, then I know how I feel, I mean that tongue and groove going up polystyrene in the lounge and yesterday I think he's got a new organ yeah, I think it's an organ, and that, that is all in those two recesses, now, you know if I find you know that I don't get anywhere and I can't see that I won't, but if, because the bathroom is where the dog is there, of course consequently that comes through the corner of the lounge Mm erm, well before wherever you put anything, you know, finished article on the bathroom wall, that one wall we might have to do whatever they allow Mm because this is, I mean I didn't hear the dogs last night, only the kid, but I mean nevertheless the day before if you'd of been in there, so but, but the kitchen can be done, toilet can be done Mm We don't want tiles now look and I think he's got all the tiles now there's a load of tiles going cheap in there I know, and this is what I said, he said I know I don't really want the old vinyl, do it anyway oh it's a pig of a job Yeah I remember you have to It's alright if your walls are absolutely Yeah they're not flat I mean I remember Mike I mean that house had mine is absolutely I mean it's, it looks fine and it's done, but if you actually put the skirt level there are actual places Mm, mm yeah Well when you walked in my porch when those blokes were doing it, you walked in there, I mean it's nice, it's a wrong suite for the for the room, too narrow the room for one of those Mm I think Mm but the minute you walk in a shop, pretty curtains, Austrian blinds, a new shower the minute you walk in there you look at this lump Our wall is flat because the wall but when Pete was doing the sides of the erm lounge and he erm put that coving up round it and got sort of in the hall, ha, and you can just about see it Yeah now, it's sort of wall goes your eyes go on it down Oh yes and he said crikey look at this, what am I gonna do here and he sort of had to fill quite a big gap in, but he sort of pushed it and filled it and then the wallpaper goes up so you can just see it, a little bit, what's a name now, just in the hall there's a bit Ours shows because it's not a bold pattern it's very subdued Mm but it's a lot like a chevron Mm, mm so you've got your pattern down, because when you've got something like that Yeah it's fine, until, unless you actually look that's right yeah go all round the ceiling line, round, the pattern all matches, and the pattern Yeah you walk round the room this side and it's all level, it's when you get up the top Yeah, it's just in this one top part in the corner well the bit where it meets, pattern should be over the door, so it's not until you're in the room and looking back out not back over, yeah but when he did it I said oh my god you know I said yeah, but you know it's there Yeah, like where I sit in my chair if I look up there I can see it, but as I say it's not there all the wallpaper it doesn't, but when he first sort of put it up, I thought oh crumbs look at that Yes, I must admit I had one or two people going up the loo and looking, I mean people stop and look when we first had all the stuff outside, you know, what you doing in there? Because then they could see the conservatory gradually taking shape Mm but yeah lovely it will be nice when it's done, I mean last weekend he sorted out the doorway which wasn't half knocking out but Annette was out yesterday after work and she come in and she sort of opened the door, good god she said just as well I'm not sitting in to watch television, well you couldn't until about half past nine, when they said right that's all the dir dirty work done, he said I'm going up to have a shower and he put the carpet, rolled the carpet half back, and picked up a load of mess and we had polythene dust sheets over it and the dust that had got underneath was absolutely thick Mm, you wouldn't know , you wouldn't believe it would you? the television the video and all that When they'd be just our, our patio doors for weeks on, still finding dust Well you do washed and Mick was drilling, he put the framework round to drill up against hammer drill, he says to me do us a favour so I said what? He said stand there with the hose of the vacuum cleaner with the nozzle on yeah so while he's drilling sucking it up Of course he's tried to get under a polythene sheet to contain it Right, is like the dentist it was hot, it was dust in that hammer drill, god it makes a noise, it did, it certainly saved a lot though Yeah it filled the hoover bag twice, the old vacuum cleaner Yeah it was like when my mother-in-law had the But if, if he hadn't been doing that it was awful up and down Well if we want this kitchen, well a lot of it is tiled anyway you know part ways up, erm I said to him whatever it costs, it'll be done They obviously didn't like it, there was nothing dif , there wasn't definitely said but there was some Yeah comment, and another time I'd lit up a cigarette you know Have a nice weekend Bye See you ta ta ta ta see you I do I I never heard a word She never mentioned it to me, so Well erm, she never said nothing, ta ta, and er Doreen never said nothing and Dee Dee never said nothing, I mean all I said to Dee was you might get it tomorrow if Lesley lets her, well Lesley wouldn't unless she forgot it of course, there's always that isn't there? Ain't it gone dull? It was so brilliant and Yeah well I've got to go to town only I dunno whether she's gone, can't be gone yet, twenty past No she's got Andrew's er, she was talking to Andrew and Andrew happen to say airport for something, I don't really know Yeah I know what it is, erm Susan's given all the info except the er Yeah, but, no Anton had to make a phone call anyway and he said while he was on the phone No, oh I didn't know that he would do Yeah for her terminal weren't it? Yeah terminal one Is it? plus Andrew said ten thirty and Susan had said ten o'clock Oh yeah, no British Airways was due in at ten thirty Oh then he stood there explaining, I mean he's driven up to Heathrow a lot Mm, yeah telling her all the signs and what to look out for I haven't been to Heathrow as much as I'd been to Gatwick I've never actually flown from Heathrow, I've been No I haven't we've been up there several times to no Bev's flown but when I've gone up with her to the spectator area, you know when you've got to spend the day there I don't think I ever have done Heathrow, oh wait a minute, did I the first year? Took the kids up No I don't know took the kids up a couple of times and then Mick and I have been up there with the and you go the long stay car park and and watch the aircraft Yeah, yeah but we spent, spent the, well half a day at Queens Terminal at Paper Gallery No I have flown from there it was mother did when she But I've been up there cos Bev's done a couple from yeah mother went out to Robert's wedding Heathrow oh yeah flew out with Robert that went erm from Heathrow, that was a schedule flight Sue was on about her daughter living with that bloke like, I don't know if it was the same bloke, I just dunno, yes it is, yes it is, it's gotta be the one, when she broke her shoulder, it's gotta be, anyway he got no job and Sarah got this good job apparently wherever it is, I can't remember where it was well she got what she wanted then, whatever it is anyway, she's keeping him virtually and they got this flat, whatever they've got, and erm Long wearing tan yeah, they'll be, and she's always moaning driving Sue up the wall, why should I keep him blah, blah, blah, blah, doing nothing, we sit and look at each other and Sue said for Christ sake she said you're twenty years old, not forty, she'd been bad on and off again, throat, well she had the shoulder, throat er she thought she had, oh the diabetes was one weren't it, diabetes one, they thought she had, thought that she had glandular fever but she hasn't and er, so Sue said to her well are you looking after yourself and she said yes I am, Sue said well I dunno she never seems to be, cos she's never been well has she really? No I mean you have to wonder I mean they all joined the club but Sue used to mm, anyway not only that one Emma erm been she don't want to go to college or something new and erm she's doing something, must be finals I would think, think it must be finals and er Sue said to her well should she pack up Yeah she's a couple of years younger so she's Mm probably got A levels this May, whatever erm should she pack up her Saturday job, it pays around twenty pound and it will go up to about twenty five, and Sue and Will sat and talked about it and she got, she's surprising been interviewed for the W R A F but I mean that's not gonna be so easy these days, I mean they're gonna take the exceptionals that they need aren't they? And Sue said she's got nothing in view apart from that and she said to her you must have alternatives, she's not applied to anybody or enquired about anything Police Force are recruiting again Are they? Mm Well erm,gor Government said that you now get well Hampshire was supposed to have some more weren't they? Yeah, they've been advertising in the Echo Well they recruit well, erm tisn't, she's not, she wants the W R A F and nothing else and Sue said you can't be like that, you know, and er, so they've decided that she's gotta carry on with this Saturday job because she won't be able to go on the dole look, straight away will she? No And Income Support I think is, what did she say for her age twenty I think I know twenty pound or something Yeah there's, there's a catchment anyway, I mean when they've finished school, college or whatever Mm they're not working or on a scheme Mm that's something innit? there's nothing That's right something , something like, like that, anyway so she said er she said it's hard enough for people with jobs to exist today without all this and she's gone back to college on the flexi idea, erm, brush up her typing because she said, now whether she's thinking of future years, she said when she left here that time, although she got that job she said it wasn't easy, she said because I had no bits of paper as such, although when I did the test I passed it, she said it wasn't simple, so she's doing Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday and not sure about Friday evening and er she said then she'll have trouble getting the money over that's out of them, why the redundancy because been there over two year, so I presume redundancy or holidays or both so Sue said to her well if they were so good to you in the past, but that ain't the point is it? They did all, they did Mm on their own back, she didn't ask for it and June ain't worked since Christmas, so er, I says I know what it's like with my sister and I mean she's been right in it ain't she? Yeah last week Both of them are had two phone calls Yeah one was an agency in Andover Aha with a job, they were gonna put her forward Yeah so she hopes then something will come if they put her name forward she might get an interview for that, the other one was an agency in Basingstoke Yeah most of them were secretary, audio typist Yeah jobs, so she said that was Wednesday Aha so she was hoping to wait and see. waiting to hear no, oh well hopeful then. Last night we had a phone call, oh it frightened me at first actually, I answered the phone Yeah said is Miss there, Tina, I said yes who's calling? Cos she was still busy you know Yeah Forte Travel Lodge, and I thought shit, and of course the thing that went through my mind was when Graham's out on the road He goes er he stays over sometimes I mean yeah somewhere of course obviously now I don't know what he's doing from day to day No of course you don't er, first thing I thought oh my god something's happened with them Yeah and he's at Travel Lodge and somebody's phoning Yeah, yeah why ain't they phoning Margarette, so anyway, shouted out to him and he wouldn't do I said it's Forte Travel Lodge, he said what they bloody I said I don't know, and I stood there when he was Of course all he was doing was listening at first and I thought oh no it's so long it it turned out when he put the phone down, he said well there's a turn up, there she is Who? erm, she work as a chamber maid at the weekend or whatever for some spare cash What this one? Yeah Oh, see you. It's where to pay to money, and you're having to go to the bank manager, what would he ask for? the business plan, and you'd have to draw that up and do all the and you have to impress the bank manager before he will even consider an overdraft facility, or whatever, a loan. This has already been used to secure overdraft facilities. Just taking this along and say well there's my business plan, that's what I intend to do, there's my profit, and all the rest of it, plus accounts. The bank manager's said O K an overdraft facility while you're establishing yourself in your first year. Not bad is it? And that's how important stuff is. And you're never in business until you've got an overdraft. Not a real business. Using the theory that always borrow other people's money, and you'll spend other people's money is the best way isn't it? . Tell you what you need to do to achieve your plan, so that you can actually give all your targets, your ratios and your activities, it's alright, if this tells you to do thirty calls, it's no use doing twenty. You'll only achieve two thirds of what you wanted. And it will be that accurate. So you'll only be letting yourself down. And it's a good idea to let your partners know about his, don't you. Because sometimes you could do with kick, a kick up the backside at home. I certainly do, my wife sometimes says, get out there, make me lots of money. Tell you each if you're on track and so if the monitoring system's in there, show you what you are, what are your most productive areas and markets are. Associates tend to veer away from their markets. We were talking about this when we were talking about that subject on Monday, weren't we? If initially you've got em , empathy with the P A whe Y E market, and you've got the products, you're going along quite happily, and then all of a sudden you hear people in the banks talking about the business market, and you go, ooh, I'll have some of that. That sounds very big and important, and what's happening, your business starts sliding down, because you're getting involved in something that you're not yet ready for, instead of establishing your business in a market in which you are good at. But this'll tell you if you're veering that way, so you can go, ooh, and perhaps spend one day a week on that, just to get into it, and the rest of it's going to be managing my practice. Show your strengths to capitalise on, what you're good at, O K, but that's normally by the sort of products you're selling, or it may identify to your manager, why you're just selling Covermaster, has living insurance gone out of fashion where you are? It might have, yes, identify some strengths, but at the same time identify weaknesses. Show you areas where you might benefit from further training, that'll be,brum, brum, get yourself on a training course, yes? and also we're producing a which comes out in early February on training, which will list to all your managers everything that we do in training. It's a, we tend to, it's a bit, erm,if you like at the moment what each little department within the agency, what every department do. Producing a booklet so that the manager and yourselves will look at you, look at area training, everything that we do in area training, head office training, everything they do, management training, everything they do, and the people that are involved in it. So you can, so if you feel that you're a bit, you need a bit of practice in a certain area, you can literally look up the type of course that would benefit you the most. O K. Show your trends in your business erm, what do you think that means, shows your trends in your business? It actually shows you the ups and downs. I actually first realised this at the second year, that when I was looking for the, the previous year, I noticed that in July the business went and I thought, because everybody's gone on holiday. Because I was in the domestic market, school holidays every of , everybody went off in July. So I thought whoa, I've got July, it's going to be a bad month this year, so what I'll do, I'll go on holiday in July too. But I'll have a good June. Yes? I'll make sure May and June top up, because I'm expecting to have a bad month in July, but because I'm expecting to have a good month, I might as well go on holiday myself. That's a simple thing that isn't it. But it's good planning, if you think about it. It makes sense if you like. Show you the value of your activities, because what we'll actually show you, and this is where it really comes into its own. Let's see, I very rarely have money, but we've got some money. If every time you picked up the phone and made contact with somebody and I gave you a pound, would you accept that as a deal? Yes,everybody,O K, now I'll pay the phone bill, all I want you to do is pick up the phone and every time you pick up the phone and make an attempt to get me an appointment, I'll give you a pound. Everybody do that? Yes O K, the only difference is, that if you do make an appointment and make it a sale, I have all the commission. No yes, yes No way, Mhm You would? O K, we, we'll draw up the contract when we've finished today, O K? You're on, don't say any more, you're on, got it, O K. So what you're saying is then, you like the idea of every time you pick up a phone you make, you earn a pound. If I said to you every time you pick up the phone it's closer to ten pounds, would it get you very excited. Yes. That's in fact, probably how much you earn every time you collect a no. Let's keep it dead simple. Let's say we earned a thousand pounds commission on one case, and I had to make one hundred calls to earn, to get that one sale. To get that appointment that gave you that one sale. How much was each no worth? A tenner A tenner, right. Would you think it actually takes a hundred calls to make one appointment, but each sale is not gonna be worth a thousand pound though is it? It's not even going to be worth half of that, or a third of that let's say. Yes? So then break that down, you are talking at least ten pounds a call aren't we? O K. Your objectives should be every time somebody says no, thank you for the fifty pound. Your objective to get the value of your no's from one pound to as much as possible. So your ratios and the things you should be looking at, or the activity stuff is how many calls I'm making, how many no's do I get, and how much is each one of those no's worth. Because what you do, you go great, I've made a sale, and that earned me two hundred and eighty pound. No it didn't, it was all the activity in front of that, that earned you, so you have to break all that down. This does it for you. It'll tell you how much it's worth, your activity. So that literally means if it's telling you right, you're ten to one your ratio of calls, and you earn from every appointment two hundred pounds you've only got to make twenty calls and you'll earn four hundred pounds. You'll double your money. This is going to be exciting stuff I'll tell you. It's a gift to people in this business, I'll tell you. Quite unique as well is this company. Er, we've got it, right, don't quote me, but I think Legal and General have got something similar, I'm not sure if it's Legal and General or General Accident, but the fact that there's only one or two companies got this, but ours is the most recent. There aren't Yes? It'll show you the value of your practice building with time. Give you an analysis of your client bank, it'll tell you how many you've seen this year, how many you've seen in two years, three years, four years, and it frightens the senior associates who have got maybe eight hundred, a thousand clients, and it said, seen in the last four years, and it's got twenty. You with me? All that's doing is for the senior associates, saying well look, I've got such a large client bank I can't service them myself, so what should I be thinking of doing? I'll recruit somebody to help me service my client bank, because it's better to have fifty percent of something than fifty percent of nothing. And I'll give the other guy fifty percent. Are you with me? So that means you're gonna develop people. you to experiment with different assumptions on your own plan, it's on the computer, so if you come up with a silly plan, you can even put your five year plan in there, and say well, this is where I want to be,and play about, and see what I've really gotta be doing. You might be surprised to find that it only means an increase in activity of fifteen percent of what you're currently doing, to achieve something that's in year three, that you've got as year three, and you might think, ooh, that's what I'll do for year two. But, make sure you keep it realistic, O K? Give you summary of the business written and issued together with the commission details and pipeline business. Pipeline business is the stuff that you've sent to head office, been put on the shelf, and hasn't issued yet, because of maybe medical in the writing, or there's complications with it, you know, it's sat on the shelf, but it hasn't actually, the policy hasn't wanged itself to the client. And of course, I've told you earlier on in the week, that you only get paid on Written, Issues Issued, it's written when you fill in the application form or submit it, it's issued once it's been underwritten or been accepted by the drug dealer if you like. Eighty five percent . Do you all understand the benefits of doing that? So please it's a discipline you must get into immediately, and you'll be starting that on Thursday. What, this Thursday week, down here? O K, I think that, it's an absolutely fantastic system, please capitalise on it. Providing it absolutely free of charge to you, really. Er, any pe , people who've been in business know, what was it, did you ever get any management consultants in? Or business analysis in? How much did they charge them? We were Yes, they don't come cheap don't they? The Carnegie Course, Carnegie They've got six managers on Carnegie course, nine hundred pounds each. Nine hundred pounds, yes. That's not cheap That was six, that was twelve evenings, six, oh,. Nine hundred pounds for that. It was eight hundred and something pounds just to do a two day time management course, were providing all this absolutely free. Don't take it for granted it's it stuff. It'll only work if we give in our hundred percent, it'll only work if you give your hundred percent. Because we want your actual figures in there, and just see the whole thing explode and come to life. What you want in life? O K. Finally then, in this session, we need to talk about the activity you need to put in to earn a living. Yes, and this is why I want to look at this week at a glance diary, so that you will go away and I want you to fill this in as I'm filling in on the board, you'll go away with an idea what a diary, sorry,spit there, ha, erm, of what a diary will look like roughly, so that you know what your diary should look like every week. Happy with that? Now, it's going to be a bit scruffy this, and you just try and transcribe it onto that piece of paper so you're going away with some idea. Yes? So what I'm gonna do, is I'm going go , give you a list of things that need to go into your diary every week, and I'll just put the list up, and you perhaps write it under Sunday or something on there, because I'm going to work on a five day week Monday to Friday. Of course, you're free to work seven if you want to, just for er, training purpose, I'm gonna work on a five day week. Now the things that should go in, the headings will be first of all, company obligations, and I'll explain these as we go through it, just make a list first. company personal obligations,Appointments,, Marketing oblique prospecting time,Self development time,and time for administration What we're gonna do is transcribe that into real life if you like, so we're gonna to have Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday. As I say, this looks really messy, but then of course, we're going to have sort of eight o'clock, nine o'clock, ten o'clock, eleven o'clock, twelve o'clock, thirteen o'clock, fourteen o'clock, fifteen o'clock, sixteen, seventeen, nineteen, twenty, twenty one will do eh? Peter Yes? Would you mind just moving the screen back? No, I don't want you to see the screen O K, first of all I've got company obligations up here, and you might think well what's that doing at the top of the list. My personal objection, obligations are more important than the company ones. Well a reason I've put company obligations at the top, I firmly believe that you have got a franchise, you've got a franchise. Just think of what you're getting. I know you're giving up your time this week, but all your training's free. And we're providing all the accommodation and travel expenses, and everything. We're paying for it. And I would like to think that you're getting good quality of training, and reasonable accommodation during the training, which you will get. You will when you get back to your branches, get full management support and company support, from all the people at head office, all your administration will be done in the branch, you'll be given a desk right, which you don't have to pay for, a filing cabinet, which you don't have to pay for, a telephone, which you won't have to pay the telephone bills for, eating which you won't have to pay the bills for, lighting which you won't have, in other words, all we want you to do, is go out and sell our products. We'll even provide the application forms, the brochures, everything to back you up to go and do it. I think it's a damn good deal. From a business point of view. Yes? So if we're giving this, is it fair to say we expect something back? Yes. Look we're it giving a hundred percent, you give it a hundred percent, we'll shake hands it's a partnership. If you only give us fifty percent, well I think we've got funny conversations. And by the way, if we only give you fifty percent we'll allow you to rattle our cage, which is a bit of a cheek really, but we'll allow it. Yes? After all the things we're doing for you. So company obligations, but the good news is, the company obligations are for your benefit. Sold or . What I mean by that is, when you get back to your branches, you will go onto further training programmes in branch training, developing your practice training, so each branch will vary how they sort of co-ordinate this, but let's say, we've been in a few months now, and twice a week we've got to go in for training. So Monday morning, eight thirty until ten o'clock, training. and Thursday half past eight until ten, training. The important thing is, it goes in your diary, and anything that goes in your diary becomes an appointment not to be broken. Got that, that's the important thing. It can be rearranged, but not broken. Some of them can't be broken though. Training sessions half past eight you shut the door. You've turned up at eight thirty one, you've missed the training session, because if you turn up late for training sessions, you'll end up turning up late out there. And turning up late out there is no way to start a conversation with any prospectives, I'm sorry I'm late. I'm sorry you've lost the smartie points already. So it's all part of this, but this training session, this is when the management and the senior associates within your branch give up their own time, to develop your business for you. You get senior associates saying this is the way I do it. This is the way I ask for referral, this is the way I service my client, this is what I do. Then you get somebody else, well I started the same as you, but I do it this way, I do it that way, so that you can formulate your way of doing it. To your benefit, so turn up at half eight, nine o'clock whatever it is. It's important. Once a month, you'll have a branch meeting or an area meeting but the area manager will write to you and say, between two o'clock on Wednesday and five o'clock we've got, I don't know if they're going to call them area now or branch meeting. That's once a month. So we'll stick that in there, again it's an appointment. Now this is where you go to the branch, and the branch management team stand up and bring you up to date with everything that's happening in the company with product changes, legislation changes, yes, some of it's boring, but it's information you've got to have. But also they have guest speakers, so there's motivational stuff there which you always will need in sales, yes, and also the awards. The best newcomer to the branch, yes? The best, and you have, I mean this branch has divisions, and all the rest of it, first division, premier division and all the rest of it. Who's the top of the first, who's the top of the second, all these little awards. It might be a bottle of wine, but a bottle of wine goes a long way, and everybody, you stand up and you get your bottle of wine, and everybody goes , yes, feel good. Go back to the wife, hey, I've won a bottle of wine. It's important that we get these things. We award people for doing things. It might be a nice rose bowl, it might be a weekend in the Lakes that's paid for you, or whatever, it's good stuff, be part of it. The important thing for people new to the business, you're rubbing shoulders with people that know the business, and it's your opportunity to say hey, I've heard about you, I think ooh, you're important, and hello. How about me having half an hour with you my friend, and tell me how you do it. Yes? Run with the winners, run with the winners. So you get to know people as well, don't you at those things. Again all for your benefit. So company obligations always put them in your diary, and anything that goes in your diary is an appointment not to be broken. Yes? Personal obligations, well,this is vitally important, because you are going to need the people you share your life with. There's gonna be times when you're collecting more no's than you would like to collect, and you're gonna go home pretty miserable, and this is the time when your partners have got to know what you're trying to achieve and maybe put the arm round your shoulder or butter you up, discuss these things with them. So these people are important to you, so it's vitally important that you don't let them down, because initially this business has a strange effect on you in as much as it seems to take over your mind, doesn't it? I bet it's happened already. But everybody you see now, you look at in a different light. Oh, there's John , I wonder if he wants a pension Oh, yes, oh there's Karen, oh, oh, she'll need a life insurance policy. Already happening? Your mind starts, and the trouble is, it starts overtaking your life. What I'm saying here is don't let it. If before you became an Abbey Life associate every Wednesday night you played badminton with three of your chums as a foursome, yes, O K, continue to do that in the future, the only difference is, I want you now, to put it in your diary, that half past seven, Wednesday night, I'm playing badminton with the lads. That's the only difference, because you'll need these things to get release from the business, because it does take over your mind. What it means is, you're planning your time so that you can work your work time, this will fit in round it, that's all we're doing. Now let's says, big Helga says, take me for a Chinese, oh right dear, so half past seven B H, oh sorry this is, B H, Chinese, I might as well right the rest of the evening off . She might be hungry Yes, I can't eat. Now that goes in there, Chinese. I ring up Richard,Richard? I ring up Richard, and Richard says the only time I can see you is seven o'clock Tuesday night, and I've got no appointment. I say, O K. No appointment. And I ring up B H and I say, I'm sorry about Tuesday night, but I've got this guy that wants to see me, it's really good, and she'll say, alright, you're starting off, O K, off you go, we'll rearrange it for next week. Same thing happens next week. Third time, what's the conversation going to be? Since you went to that Abbey Life, I never see you, you know, out every night. When's the last time we went for a meal? You think that Abbey Life's more important than I do, d'ya want this? and by the way, the other way round. If it was your wife working for Abbey Life, would you like it if she was breaking appointments and out every night and all the rest of it. You'd start saying something, wouldn't you? So look where's he going to the next day? Planet Mars? That the only time he can see me is next Tuesday night? No, all I say to Richard, is I'm sorry I'm tied up. Which is to my advantage anyway because it's telling him I'm a busy person, and people like doing business with busy people. And successful people. So I say, Richard I'm sorry I can't make it this Tuesday, I'm tied up, but I have got next Tuesday, if Tuesday's the best night for you. Yes, O K then, right, because it's more than a week away, I'll give you a bell close to the time, just to make sure you, everything's alright. O K, Peter, just send a confirmation. Yes? Don't break that appointment, it's to your benefit anyway that you don't. By the way, are you realising that this week is for setting up appointments for next week. Try and get that going as soon as possible. Do you understand this? All this week is for is going on appointments I've made last week, and for setting up my appointments for next week. It's given me five clear working days to set up my appointments for next week. So I'm working on what we call a rolling week. Other personal things might be that Tommy, your little lad has a school sports day. Tommy, that again should've been blue. That says blue. Write in here. Put the damn thing down O K? Now, parents in the room who've got young children, when was the last time you actually went to school sports day? You can't remember, why? Because you were working. All of a sudden you're self-employed, you can go, because you're in control of your own time. So Tommy comes up and says Dad, yes son, can you come to the school sports day, and you say, when's that son? Next week, two o'clock to four o'clock. Yes, alright son, really, and he's dead chuffed. And he goes off to school, and he tells all his mates. And he says my dad is coming to the school sports day. And he's dead fast, and he says he's going to win the egg and spoon race and the sack race because he's the best dad in the world. So there. You get up on the Thursday morning and you say, Tommy. Yes, dad, I'm sorry son, something's come up, and I've got an important client to see this afternoon and I'm not gonna to be able to make it. Well Tommy is a brave little chappie, he says, Alright dad, and off he goes to school and all his friends are really sympathetic about this. They get to the school sports and they say, where's your dad? Well he can't come, because he's a great big businessman and he's very important and couldn't make it. No he's not, he's chicken. What do you mean he's chicken? Because my dad's come, and he's going to win the egg and spoon race. No he's not, yes he is, no he's not. Smack, smack and you end up going to school to pick up the wreckage anyway. Look, these people are important to you. Don't let them down. Don't let them down. They're important to you. The only thing I'm asking you to do is put them in the diary now. Whereas before you didn't, did you? If you take your wife out for a meal, you invite her out for your meal you just say, let's go Tuesday night, it never went in the diary. Now you do. That's all I'm asking you to do. If you get your partner to help you as well, you'll find that they start writing things in it. B H did, she used to say school run Tuesday evening, don't make any fun, she used to block it out, the time that she wanted me to see me. Yes, so get them into the habit of doing it. Moving on now to the important thing, appointments, this is where can go to . Because I've done some red I'll do green. Alright. So what I'm saying is here is, again your ratios and anything on the computer, it will tell you how many appointments you need to make just from your ratios. Let's say then, I just,I used to have to work on eleven appointments a week because if I had eleven appointments a week, two people would perhaps blow me out, change their minds, two people would rearrange, two people would say no thank you, and another two would say, yes, but I need to do it next month, which might leave me with two sales. So I had to have eleven appointments to get my two sales a week. Do you understand what I mean? So all sorts of things happen. So what I've got to do, I've got to change colour, not me, pen. O K? And put my appointments in. Well, let's start sticking them in. Let's have what, a lunch time one there, it's not very green is it? That's a bit greener, let's put one in there like that, and you can pop these anywhere you want to. It's a bit dusty this Giles, but do you want to just sort of put a few appointments in there,. Let's have one for there,, let's have a breakfast appointment, because you all got those didn't ya. Shall we have two breakfast appointments, yes. Every Tuesday and Wednesday we'll have breakfast appointments, and we'll have another one there, and one in before we take big H out. What are we doing Wednesday? yes, we'll have one there, and we'll have one there, I'm sticking them all over the place, but you'll see what I mean. How many's that? One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, and stick another one here, ten, one on Friday morning, eleven. That's my eleven points. The reason I've used a highlighter or changed colour is that now that, the colour sticks out doesn't it? It's prominent, yes? This is good, because it gives me control when I make my appointments. What I mean by that is, when I ring up Richard, we must give an alternative close, mustn't we. Daytime or evening or morning or afternoon, whatever you, your preference is, I say to Richard, will a daytime or an evening appointment be more convenient, and he says well, daytime's better for me. And I say, O K I've got twelve o'clock Monday, or alternatively one o'clock Tuesday. It's me giving the times. Why? Because they're staring at me in front of me in my diary. By the way they're also made up for the following week as well in case, if it's Tuesday night, oh, let me just look at next week, what have I got? Green blobs or orange blobs, yes, I've got next Tuesday night free at seven o'clock, how about that? It's always me giving the times. So that eventually we'll find a mutually agreeable time. Yet I'm in control. You must be in control. The minute they say well, no that's no good to me, you'll have to come and, you'll have to come and see me at eight, say, well I'm busy then I'm afraid. But I've got the following week at eight, so that's lucky isn't it. So it's still me agreeing, because otherwise they di , they're taking control off you, and it's no good in business it's not is it?fighting for control, but it's as long as you're both fighting and both happy about fighting for it, that's fine. Yes, use your common sense on that. The second thing it does is highlight the fact that you've actually got to put names in there, because this is next week. So it tells me, once I've decided when I'm gonna see all these people, I've now got to get names in here haven't I? And unless next week's eleven boxes are filled with names, this week doesn't end. Are you with me here? I'm working this week to set up, I'm over here, I'm setting up next week. If I've got a couple of these blank, I cannot finish on Friday night, I'm going to have to do some overtime. I'll have to do some more calls on Friday night to try and get those appointments, and if necessary, I'll have to come in on Saturday morning, because you don't finish a week until you've got your appointments for the following week. Because without those eleven appointments I've calculated I might have two blow outs, two people might want to rearrange, two people want to think about it, I've got to have my eleven, to make my two sales. If I close this week with only seven, I may only end up with one sale, and that's not gonna to give me the income I want and big H wants so I can take her out for a Chinese. Do you understand? So again it's a discipline. You'll be letting yourself. It's no use going home on Friday night and going erm, I've only got five appointments, you're self-employed, it means you're going to have to work a couple of hours extra. I can go in on Saturday morning and make some more calls, you're self-employed. You cannot have a week where you haven't got any appointments. Yes? I know it's gonna be tough initially, it is tough initially. But you've got to, still come, you've got to get the hoop up, and then once the hoop's up you've got to keep knocking it around. But getting the hoop up is the hardest thing isn't it? all over the place So please remember that discipline. Personal obligations, appointments, marketing prospecting time. Well marketing could be sorts of things, it could be doing exhibitions which you've talked about, it could be erm, mail shots, it could be looking, going down the library to do, to look up the electoral role, to look up the names of people. Whatever it is, it's the activity that leads to appointments, whatever the activity is, put it in here. So after you've finished training, you're going down to the library, yes, to look up the names of the people luve in Street, and once you've been on that appointment you've got to go back to the branch and you're gonna do your mail shots whatever you're gonna do, put it in there. So I'll just put prospecting. Now of course, the best time to do prospecting is when? The evening No, when's the best time to do your prospecting? On your appointments. what's prospecting Prospecting is collecting names isn't it? Which is referrals, the most efficient way of prospecting is on your, on here, so really on every appointment you should have a little P. Or referred leads or whatever. Think about it, it should be in there. Now, self-development time. Everybody in this room is a boffin on Covermaster, Living Insurance, Sexist Savings Plan and Healthmaster aren't you? Yes, Peter. No you're not. All you've done, what have we done All you've done Is the basics Is passed the licencing test, you've passed your driving test, now you're going to learn to drive drive You're fully au fait with all the application forms aren't you? No. You've read all the product brochures, haven't you? No. You've watched all the videos and you've really got a good working knowledge of these subjects haven't you? No. Right, well you're not going to be on a constant training course otherwise we'd never get you out there selling. So there's gonna be a bit of time, gonna to be spent on your own, developing yourself. For example, that brochure, never give anybody a brochure which you haven't read yourself. Because they may, might read it. Eh? Eh? Believe it or not many people, not many people do actually read them, but school teachers and engineers, the ana , the analytical minds, they read the damn things, and when they come back they ask you a question, and you say, I don't know, I've never read it. What's the chance of getting a sale? Zilch. So know what you're talking about. So the good news is, we have got these brochures, we've got videos and everything. Why not do it at home, away from the distractions of the office, is the important thing. Do it at home. Take the video home, wait for everybody to go out, you can stop in, rewind it, pause it, write down the lines, or just study the subject. Match it up, read your brochures in your own time, so do it at home whenever possible. Because don't forget you'll have the formal training sessions in your branches anyway. So get it in there, just before, so you're up at six o'clock in the mornings are you? So self-development should be in there. Self-development. Whatever, programme return. But what, the best thing to do is get organised on it, and do it on a weekly basis, say, self-development this week is the personal pension plan. Monday nine o'clock, I'm gonna to watch the video, technical video on personal pensions at home. Yes, Tuesday, half an hour, I'm going to sp , read the personal pension's brochure. It's like just ticking them off, and surprisingly all this knowledge will build up inside you until eventually you know what you're talking about and once you know what you're talking about it breeds confidence, and once you're confident, it transmits itself to the people you're talking to, and they like it, because you know what you're talking about, and that leads to sales. And sales lead to profit. Got it? So it's not wasted time. This is the two hundred and eighty pound stuff I assure you, yes? And then finally administration. When you've found out already that Abbey Life is responsible for the d , the disappearance of the rainforest. We are, look at the paper we've give you this week. And bumf. When you get back to your branches, you'll be allocated a tray or a pigeon hole or something or other, and you'll find within a month or so, that you get on all the mailing lists, and you end up with all this bumf. Now you can come in every day, and sit and sort out your bumf, but I always believe that the great British public are out there, so the more time you spend out there, the more profit you're gonna make, there's less profit being in the branch. And yet because you've come from a P A Y E background, you feel you've got to get up in the morning, and go to work. And when you get to the branch you get your bumf and you sit there looking through all the bumf. And so you think you're working. Guess what, you ain't getting paid for that. It's non-productive. However, you need to keep yourself up to date with this bumf, and you've got to control it. So you can do it every other day, or whenever, whatever your organisational is, but what I used to do is do it on a Friday. Admin. And it used to all add up and go in on Friday, after I'd got, got everything sorted out, go in on Friday, and get all this bumf and go to a desk, my desk, and I'd put it down, get a bin, right, a cup of coffee, loosen your tie and start wading through it. Yes? Oh, I've missed something. I knew I'd missed something. It's very important. Approaching time. And I'll come back to the administration in a second. How could I miss approaching time? When I was asking for my referred leads yesterday, what did I say? Would you tell them that I'll be giving them a ring between half past six and quarter past seven. That's a lot to stay in because that's in the script isn't it, you can say that, because I'll be ringing at the same time on Thursday. Why could I say that? Because you knew it. It was in my diary, it was planned, every week. That was my phone sessions every week. Yes, I allowed Monday to get my eleven for the following week. I allowed Thursday as my backstop in case I haven't got my eleven. Yes? If I haven't got my eleven on a Thursday night, it meant overtime on Friday or Saturday morning, that's what it meant. Would it be fair to say, new to the business, you should be approaching, approaching, approaching, approaching, approaching, every day? Because you're new to the business. You'd be silly not to. Until eventually you can get it to a stage, where you're just doing it, because you know you can get your eleven appointments. But again you've got to work towards that. So initially, you're going to be approaching every day. Now going back to administration, I'd wade through, and it might say that the policy's being delivered, so I've got to set up a policy delivery call. Well I don't ring up the client now, I make a note to ring them Monday night, because every approach session should always start off with warm calls, I don't know if Alan told you that. Right, your first two calls should always be warm ones. Not mum, because your mum will always love you, Hello, mum. Hello well never mind son, you know. I mean, I'm ringing up John. Hi, John, it's that time of the year for us to talk about your pension, look I'm in your area next week, when can we get together? Alright, Pete, how's things, and all the rest of it, yes, one in the bag. Hi Charles, it's Peter, you've got the policy document, is that right? Yes, O K, as I say, I want to come along and check it and there's a couple of other things I want to talk to you about, when's the best time for us to get together? I've got, I've got, they're oh cases, I've got two in the bag. Then I get on to my calls. My referred leads and all the rest of it. At the end of my little phone session, I've one last in the bag, hi Mick, Peter, as I said I'd give you a bell in January, do you think it's a good time for us to get together now, yes, Oh great, O K, I've got. So what's the worst I can get, at the end of a telephone session, the worst is that I'll end up with three appointments. So that's why your top ten names really, the no , the people you'll probably get appointments with, you don't want to be ringing them all up on Thursday night, otherwise you'll blow them all. You want to stagger them don't you? So that you know at least when you ring one, somebody, you're going to get one appointment out of a phone session. So it should be like, your close friends and family in the middle, Bob, who's my brother, he said he'd give me an appointment when I come back, I'll ring him, and then I go to the outer circle for the rest of that phone session. Yes? So the ones I definitely know I'm going to get appointments with, if I go and do that, I put myself into a comfort zone don't I? Erm, and then probably you won't make any sales because they're all too close to you. Do you understand my theory there? So all I do is go through this, file that, oh yes, yes, file it and then you've got your client files and everything, file everything, the pile goes down, some of it's bin , binned. O K, What does that mean? So the pile goes down. And then what do you do then? Well you always need motivating, so how would you do it? Four o'clock finish. Home, MacDonalds, No Pictures? Home, M and S, Marks and Spencer's, bottle of plonk, I shouldn't need one Question mark, What that means is, four o'clock you go home, you pick the kids up from school, you take them all to MacDonalds, you all have Big Macs, yum, yum, then you go off to the pictures, and they all want to see Arnold Schwarzenegger blowing somebody's head off, and you want to watch Bambi or whatever it is. You're all having arguments about that, you all go to the pictures, an early showing, you go home, bung a Marks and Spencer's meal into the oven, they're great I could live on it, O K, just bung it into the oven, pull out the cork, then you sit down, wind down the week, couple of sherbets, maybe a glass of brandy, one o'clock in the morning,here we come, and all the rest of it, sort the world out, Friday night, wind down, enjoy the weekend. They'll do that at the Belfry tonight, aren't they? O K, let's do that, sound good? What would it be like though if I hadn't got my eleven appointments? Dreadful It wouldn't be a good night would it? What happened was, I'd go home, go to MacDonalds, and have to go back to the office. But I didn't want to be in the office making phone calls to people who're rude and saying go away. I wanted to be at the pictures with my family. So what was it, it was a motivator. Because I didn't want the kids saying, ah, you haven't got to And I didn't want to go in on Saturday morning either did I? I wanted to go home and do that, and in fact do the things I wanna to do at weekends. Not worrying about what's happening next week. So put a motivator at the end of the week. In fact deliberately if you can't go there, you're going to let people down, so that they give you stick. Good one? Now what's the real benefit from this? The real benefit from this is that you've got a full page, and a full diary. The real benefit is it gives you a reason to get out of bed in the morning. If you study the long-term unemployed, sadly what happens is they lose their job or they don't get employment, and eventually they keep working hard, right, but after the period of time they get dispirited when they find that people are not willing to take them on, and of course it's a terrible thing for them to cope with. But psychologically what happens is, eventually they say well, what's the point of getting up in the morning, so they lie in till ten o'clock. And then they start thinking what's the point of getting up at ten? Not going anywhere, they lie in till lunchtime. Until eventually they get up at lunchtime, and they say what's the point of having a shave, I'm not going anywhere, so they stop shaving. So what I'm saying is their dignity, and you often hear them saying this, their dignity is the important thing. The reason that is disappearing is because they haven't got a purpose to get out of bed in the morning, exactly. This gives you a purpose and a reason to get out of bed in the morning. Otherwise, I've just talked about the alternative. Your dignity will go, you'll destroy yourself mentally. I've only got one appointment, and that's Wednesday, and that's a bit iffy. You're gonna destroy yourself. It's not the appointments that matter, it's the activity around the appointment, the fact that I'm gonna get up on Monday morning, I'm gonna go training, and once I've done that, I've got to nip down to the library, O K, and look up that electoral role, I've got an appointment, and then I'm gonna go back to the office, I'm gonna to do my mail shots and then I'm gonna to go home, mow the lawn, have a bit of tea, and then I'm gonna to my approaching, and then I'm gonna go, yes, on that appointment there. It doesn't matter if these two people here, these two appointments are a bunch of wombats or they hate you, or you just, it doesn't matter. Yes, it doesn't matter. If you don't make a sale, or it was a successful day, it's the fact that you've had a full day of activity that matters. So at the end of day, you're tired, you think, whoof, what am I doing tomorrow? Tomorrow morning, oh my goodness, I've got that, I've got that and I've got that. Because I can promise you and I can promise you I get you a guarantee that if you get good at those things, you'll be successful. If you continue a week like that, sales will result. And sales result in profit for you. I promise you. You might even on the odd occasion, go a whole week without making a sale. I don't give a damn, as long as you do the activity. yes Anything. Are you happy with that? The reason to get out of bed in the morning. It's so, so important for you. Any questions? Do you see the importance of planning?millions of things you've got to stick down with, think about, think about your objectives, get that see who it,get that poster up, really think what you wanna be in five years' time, three years' time, all the rest of it, seriously think about it. Men , mention it this weekend to your partners and tell them to start thinking about it. So next weekend when you come back off the induction you should be fired up, let's see what we're really gonna to do here yeah. What am I going to do? And then start planning it, and the sooner you get your diary to that state, the sooner you're on your road to success. Are you happy? O K. End of the course. Hooray. However, however, sorry. A question on planning is it? Now when do we get these organisers? Right, I'm just going to do planning? Alright, what we're going to do now, is just give you your er, pieces of paper back so you'll need your logs, yes. And also I'm gonna give you your diaries and organisers and things, at the same time. So, if a couple of you, to save everybody getting up, could you distribute those two notes, could you two distribute the, Karen, one of you do the inserts and one of you do the binders, there should be twelve. Please distribute those, alright. This is your life. Jasper Thank you very much Or Richard , Mr. Thank you The people doing resits please, yes Erm, want to come through into this room and we'll sit you down doing them now. Stuart just heard it this week, So the resit people, could they go next door and start doing the resits. Yes, I think you can It's got pockets, yes, you'd better not open those actually. They'll leave a mess everywhere. Probably better just to take them home, and look at them rather than compile them now. I mean, if you want to, by all means, but, it's just going to leave a mess everywhere. is there pockets in them Business cards. No these tax cards That's just I've never seen these before. Er, yes, what happens is that venture capital, you'll see that Yes the one I've got is I just bought my own from W H Smith, which has all that, little pockets for plans and so on. They don't go over the rings anyway. m Yes, potentially, yes. But it's What do we then do? On Thursday night you can't make a phone call, if you can't What do we do if there aren't It's just a matter of waiting for your references to be checked out, or whatever the complication is,so all you'd do, is stay , I mean, don't sit at home. You'll have to go into the branch, but what, if I was your manager, I'd say well what we'll do, is keep on working and training, until it's alright , you'll be alright, sorting your problems out physically doing, you can always carry on, but you can't physically go out on appointments until you're admitted, that's what we're saying. No, alright. Are you still keen? Quite keen. Erm, just one of those empty boxes at the back there. Right Stuart, Is Richard retaking? Yes, can you just put that on his thing? Make He's got two, I think One of them's probably, probably Bob's. Put these in your log, if you've got them. Log? In the log he's got two, so give it to him that one, The new one. Log, that's the one I gave you on Monday morning. Graham, hold on, right. , right. Karen and , she should I've got , Giles or what? John, and I've got a little filofax type thing, and then I've got this. So that's what this is, Alistair, We take this with us, yes? I've got some more to give you yet? You couldn't help me by distributing those could you? Now these have are the, erm, the logs I took off you on Monday, Richard. Now they need to go back, this needs to go back on section two doesn't it? This goes back in section two, yes, and when they give you your induction report, which we've still got to put some results on, that goes back in section three. Mick , Stuart, can you put that on Stuart's for me please,John , Giles, Richard , there, Steve Steve, for me. You haven't signed it Steve, and you've got to sign it, because really, just have a look at your management, that shouldn't arrive here like that. You should've completed those things. You should have seen,training Steve Just, just in the front row, because your manager will want in the back one No You know, I mean it's quite realistic, if you can change a video, or even that if, if you'd written, hadn't had time for whatever reason, but, video, just point that out. It's no help to you now, but you can certainly help . Alistair yes, there's always the That, those, yes, that goes into your section two of your log. Give that Bob, and then the final report I'll give you will go into section three. Put it into section two now, and you'll be alright. Where does that go, that one? That will go into three as well, with the report I'm going to give you. Graham, section two that goes into, Karen We've got, sorry, at what point do the first bits go? They go into Section? Sorry, the first two go into section three, and they will marry up with your induction forms, Thank you. That goes into two, this is all section two. This is the stuff I, I took off you on Monday. Have you done anything to it? No, I've just checked Right That they've done what they've said they've done, and made a note on the things they'd said they'd done, but they hadn't done. Right Have a little word in their shell-likes. It's alright, part of my job is actually monitoring the managers what they do as well, so that they're doing what they should be doing, which is fair enough isn't it? Is that everything now? No, there's something else yet, I'm sorry. Oh yes, I can give you your's because you want to get going don't you? Well, there's no harm You can stop nibbling. Do you actually do this? I love it, that trainer's comment with practice on something we didn't do. Ha. Yes you did, you all had a chat with each other at the end of the referred lead session didn't you. If you're going to be asking for a The fact that you didn't ask for personal recommendations, it's not my fault. Every time you you were gonna ask, I said stop. What's the point then? So Well I don't know what to do with these, it's obviously a . Right let me go and get the it's next to the wall. Reports, I beg your pardon? That's Monday too. Well there's not much of it. Make the best of it aye Well I have to, otherwise, I wouldn't have any effect at all with my luck. I've lived all my life waiting for an opportunity like this, somebody saying you're all individuals, but when it came I was not convinced. I'm just going to grab a bit to eat, because Alan's still filling out the induction reports, but don't leave yet until you've got your induction report, please. As soon as you've got that, you can. Is that the results that you've taken today? We'll have to give up and good luck to you right Where does the induction report go in here, The report has arrived. It's coming, it's coming, that'll go in section three. Let's have a look in. That's right section three, it should be blank at the moment except for what you've just been given. Oh I see, not in here? I'm thinking Right well I'm trying to but it's very Stupid boy, why hide it. Right, section two for the report. No, no, no, no, I don't understand That one, that one, page two, get it the right way up, that one, like that, that's it. Now wait for me your team's coming now. submit it, and Section three, goes in there, and then I'll give you your induction report back, which Alan's got at the moment, and that goes in section three, and that's fantastic eh, so let's have a nibble something to eat. So what have you got to take on Sunday, it's these two isn't it? I just think she's going to have to go and buy a dormobile, I mean I can't see any other way round it. So let's just try that now who've we got here. You are you're on my list which one d'ya use? Yes and Sir I need I've still got er I've still got I can wait Okay let's let's have a list of let's have you going to in respect of a and try from there . I'll give you the answer. You sir, What are you? sir. In respect of a fine workman I am but as you would say a cobb cobbler. Good. I cry. Truly sir, all that I live by is with the awl. Truly sir , make it long. All that I live with is by, sorry, all that I live by is with the awl. Truly sir, all that I live by is with the awl. I meddle with no tradesmen's matters nor women's matters. But with awl. But with the awl. But with awl. But with awl. Yes good. I am indeed, sir, a surgeon to all when they are in great danger. I recover them. Yes er the gender is I cover them. So,I but wherefore art thou not wherefore not in thy shop today. Why dost thou lead these men about the streets . Truly sir, to wear out their to wear out their shoes to get myself into more work. But indeed sir we make one to see Caesar and to rejoice . Truly sir we may and then he wanted you to get really quite excited. Er and you've gotta cry out Caesar. To see to see Caesar and to rejoice in his triumph . Right you From the beginning okay. Truly sir, to wear out their sh their shoes to get myself into more work. But indeed sir, we make holiday to see Caesar and the rejoice in his triumph. To see Caesar and to rejoice in his triumph . I'll never get the part trust me. Shall I just go to Yeah yeah Okay erm. To see Caesar and to rejoice in his triumph. Okay that's alright that's okay. Got that bit. Can I go now sir? Yep. We'll see you on Monday anyway. Okay. you chaps. Erm There are more parts. Now who've we got now we've got er let's have Mr Matthew . And which way you gonna go from er I'm gonna go you sir, what trade are you. page one. You sir what trade are you? Okay good. Now you answer that okay. You sire, what trade are you? You're you're Okay. Okay. You sir, what trade are you? I'm saying that to you. Oh right. So you go on from there. Right? Come in. Right. You sir, what training are you? Trees sir,fine workman I am but as you would say a cobbler. Okay. Now make it make it really sort of. You know you're a cheeky little bum okay. truly sir in respect of a fine workman. Try you know really make it okay off you go. Truly sir, in respect of a fine workman I am but as you would say a cobbler. Okay. Now I want a cobbler . Truly s truly sir . Now make it long. All that I live by is with the awl. It's a joke you know an awl is a sort of erm instrument thing you know you can just give that . Truly sir,truly sir. You'll have a patch on your eye you see you'll be all truly sir. Truly sir, all that I live by . Make it long. All that I live with by is with the awl. All that I live by is with the awl. Yeah. I meddle with no tradesmen's matters nor women's matters. Oh I am indeed sir, a surgeon to hold they are in great danger And they are in great danger. I recover them. I recover them. I am indeed sir, a surgeon. You've gotta try try and work out what you're er what you actually are. Now are you middles or? I'm middles sir. Five thirty. Your name? Five thirty. Name? Dean sir. Yep got you down. Five thirty. Okay. I am indeed sir, a surgeon to . Like a surgeon you know . When they are in great danger. That's the jews. I I recover them. I indeed sir a surgeon to . And I am in great danger. I recover them. I recover them. Yes. But wherefore art not in thy shop today. Whence thou leave me to about the feast. Truly sir, to wear their shoes. Yes you see. truly sir to wear out their shoes to get myself some more work ha ha ha ha. You see that sort of thing. Now you try that. Truly sir to wear out their shoes ha ha ha to get myself into more work. But indeed sir we make holiday to see Caesar and to rejoice in his triumph. Okay. to see Caesar and to rejoice in his triumph. Okay that's alright. Now what's the man's name? Castle. Andy Castle. Right to that. Truly sir in respect of a fine workman. Try to go from there. Truly sir in respect of a fine workman I am but as you would say a cobbler. Thou art a cobbler art thou? Truly sir. All that I live by is with the awl. Truly sir truly sir all that I live with with by is with the awl. Truly sir, all I live by is with the awl. I meddle with no tradesmen's matters nor women's matters but with the awl. I am indeed sir a surgeon to old shoes. When they are in great danger I recover them. Half past five. Is this sir? Middles yep middles yep half five. Okay let's do it again because er we're . Right let's . Er You sir, what trade are you? Truly sir in respect of a fine workman I am but as you would say a cobbler. I am a cobbler. Truly sir all that I live by is with the awl. I meddle with no tradesmen's matters nor women's matters. But with the awl. I am indeed sir a surgeon to old shoes. When they are in great danger I recover them. Mm at what . Why dost thou lead these men about the streets. Truly sir to wear out their shoes to get myself into more work. But indeed sir we make holiday to see Caesar and to rejoice in his triumph. Yeah okay. Truly sir er but indeed sir we make holiday to see Caesar and to rejoice in his triumph. Now you I don't mind how you do it you know but you you've gotta feel. Now just think work out now what you're doing. Truly sir to wear out their shoes to get myself some more work ha ha. Ha clever aren't I? Truly sir to wear out their shoes to get myself into more work. But indeed sir we make holiday to see Caesar and to rejoice in his triumph. Okay make the possibly a little stop there. But er,Indeed sir we make holiday to see Caesar and to rejoice in his triumph. You know really . Okay try it again, Truly sir. Truly sir to wear out their shoes to get myself into more work. But indeed sir we make holiday to see Caesar and to rejoice in his triumph. Okay. What form are you in? Yeah what R B. R B? Yeah. Right next man is called? Danny sir. Mr Danny . Oh Mr Danny here we go sir. You sir, what trade are you? Truly sir I'm a respectable fine workman. I am as you would say a cobbler. You thou art a cobbler art thou? Truly sir. All that I live by is with the all. Alright you can go longer. Truly sir. All that I live by is with the awl. Ha ha ha. I meddle with no tradesmen's matters nor women's matters but with the awl. Truly sir all that I live by is with the awl. I meddle with no tradesmen's matters stop there stop there. Truly sir all that I live by is with the awl. Full stop you think you make sure I mean you you are in control of the words. Don't worry about having to get it all done by. You've got plenty of time. Okay. Try again,Truly sir Truly sir all that I live by is with the awl. I meddle with no tradesmen's matters nor women's matters but with awl. I am indeed a surgeon to old shoes. When they are in great danger I recover them. Yeah. What d'ya reckon it's not it's not recover like when you're finding something is it? It's like covering a sofa. So what you do is you what I wanted is, I, you know you know how if your mother's gonna recover a sofa it's it is you know, I I er I recover them. You know it's not okay? But wherefore art not in thy shop today. Why dost thou lead these men about the streets? Truly sir to wear out their shoes to get myself into more work. But indeed sir we make holiday to see Caesar and to rejoice in his triumph. Good I like that. Very well done. We'll just do it once more. You sir, what trade are you. Truly sir, in respect of a fine workman I am but as you would say a cobbler. I am but as you would say a cobbler. make it interesting make the character . Truly sir in respect of a fine workman I am but as you would say a cobbler. Do what you like you see. Do what you like. Right. Truly sir right what what trade are you? Truly sir in respect of a fine workman I am but as you would say a cobbler. Thou art a cobbler art thou? Truly sir, all that I live by is with the awl. I meddle with no tradesmen's matters nor women's matter but with awl. I am indeed sir a surgeon to old shoes. leave it there. I am indeed sir. You change the pace you do what you like. I am indeed sir a surgeon to old shoes. I am indeed sir a surgeon to old shoes. When they are in great danger I recover them. Oh. Why dost thou lead those these men about the streets? Truly sir to wear out their shoes to get myself into more work. Truly sir to wear out their shoes to get myself some more work ha ha ha. Truly sir to wear out their shoes to get myself into more work ha ha. But indeed sir we make holiday to see Caesar and to rejoice in his triumph. Okay. Right. Next man is called? Nick . Nicholas . You Mm yesterday. Right. Let's erm Where shall I go from? Right we'll go from er that first one. You sir what trade are you? Truly sir in respect of fine workmen I am but as you would say a cobbler. Go a bit slower will you? Yeah. Okay. What you sir what trade are you? Truly sir in respect of a fine workman I am but as you would say a cobbler. Mm thou art a cobbler art thou? Truly sir all that I live by is with the awl. I meddle with no tradesmen's matter Slow down. Truly sir all that I live by is with the awl. I don't have to speak because they're all waiting for me. I meddle with no tradesmen Right start again. You sir what trade are you? Erm er sorry. Yep. Truly sir in respect of a fine workman. No roll that truly. Truly sir in respect of a fine workman I am but as you would say a cobbler. Truly sir in respect of a fine workman I am but as you would say a cobbler. interesting you see? Thou art a cobbler art thou? Truly sir all that I live by Truly sir truly sir. Truly sir all that I live by is with the awl. Er yeah make it longer. All that I live by is with the awl ha ha ha. You don't have to say that but we all you know you're you're pulling their leg the whole time okay? Okay sorry sir. Yeah. Truly sir. Truly sir all that I live by is with the awl. I meddle with no tradesmen's matters nor women's matters but with the awl. I am indeed sir a surgeon to old shoes. When they are in great danger I recover them. I recover them ha. Why dost thou lead these men about the streets? Truly sir to wear out their shoes to get myself some more work. Truly sir truly sir to wear out their shoes. Make it a little bit more common. Truly sir to wear out their goes to get myself into more work. But indeed sir we make holiday so see Caesar and to rejoice in his triumph. Yeah well you need a gap there after it's a separate thing isn't it? Truly sir to wear out their shoes to get myself into more work. Pause pause. But indeed sir we make holiday Okay. to see Caesar. I want you to make it interesting interesting. Right, Truly sir. Truly sir to wear out their shoes to get myself into more work. But indeed sir we make holiday to see Caesar and to rejoice in his triumph. Yes you know really get that with a bit of er bit of er you know bit of a triumph . To see Caesar and to rejoice in his triumph. you know we're thrilled. Getting a holiday. You know. But indeed sir we make holiday to see Caesar and rejoice in his triumph. Right . Now who's the next man? Dillan sir. Dillan good stuff. Right we'll do it again to you. Right er let's go again. You sir what trade are you? Truly sir in respect of fine workman I am but as you would say a cobbler. Yes you try and be a bit more of a pause there. Truly sir truly sir in respect of a fine workman I am but as you would say a cobbler. A cobbler make it Okay go again. You sir what trade are you? Truly sir in respect of a fine workman I am but as you would say a cobbler. I am but as you would say. To join together. strong word, I am but as you would say walrus ha ha ha I'm a cobbler. Or you can say that, ha ha ha. Do anything you like. It's you on the stage. Okay go again. You sir. Truly sir in respect of a fine workman I am but as you would say a cobbler. Thou art a cobbler art thou? Truly sir all that I live by is with the awl. I meddle with no tradesmen's matter nor women's matter but with awl. I am indeed sir a surgeon to all shoes. When they are in great danger I recover them. Alright. Why dost thou lead these men about the streets? Truly sir to wear out their shoes to get myself some more work. But indeed sir we make holiday to see Caesar and to rejoice in his triumph. Mm good. Okay. What trade are you? Truly sir in respect of a fine working I am but as you would say a cobbler. Thou art a cobbler art thou? Truly sir all that I live by All that I live by is with the awl ha ha ha. Truly sir all that I live by is with the awl. I think you can be a bit more rough let's be a bit more rough. you know. You know, All that I live by is with the awl. Ah he meddles with no tradesmen's matters. Truly sir all that I live by is with the awl. I meddle with no tradesmen's matter nor women's matter but with awl I am indeed sir a surgeon to all shoes. When they are in great danger I recover them. Okay go on to the next one. Truly sir Truly sir to wear out their shoes to get myself into more work. But indeed sir we make holiday to see Caesar and to rejoice in his triumph. Right now I'm going to turn to page thirty seven. Oh that's alright I just had it on too loud. Oh damn that hurt. Sorry I haven't Why d'ya want to why d'ya what you going on about? shut you mouth. Oh that's original now just shut your mouth. Shut up. Alex Alex I liked I liked it when there's shut up Fuck me fuck me fuck me fuck me. Fuck you? You you. Hello. You're mum. What you doing? This is a communist . Look for your personal information you fat lump of lard you're not you're meant to ignore the microphone okay? Don't call me fat you stupid . fucking tongue. He's got no mum he's got no dad he's no need to Spastic. He's a fat wanker as well. You're running out of No I'm not there look that's how my voice is like. No you can't you off. Hello. Danny what are you doing? caught myself doing a having a piss again. Bet it recorded that didn't it? Not funny . Ignore the damn thing will you. No it's erm all the conversation that's going on at the minute. Alex come on. Shut up . You just making this up. No that's what your dad's got on his . Is that my alarm going off or yours? Oh shut up you fat ugly mother Don't record is man that's rough. Danny stop it it's so gross. kick him. Record it record it see what he says. your so gross. he's naughty isn't he yes very naughty. What's he typing what's he typing. What you typing? welcome to gardener's world. Where we talk about plants plants and more plants. Are you going to do gardeners world? he's a reject he's a real reject. will you just shut up ignore it man. Shut up . Alex what's your first language? Shut up. Alex what's your first language. Chinese. First names fill in the above mentioned people's first language is not English. Are you like you like having a conversation with yourself. No I was in the conversation in fact . Well that's why it says, Oh right I get. I don't really but anyway. Right everyone else is a friend apart from me. Everybody go to the bog and have a tinkle and I'll record it . Look what I've gone and put here. Toilet? Yeah. Are you writing that? yeah. Well I might as well. This thing's kept confidential so if I don't erm been to the toilet . I hope you Norwegian people realize this is complete . Don't listen to he's just a fat bastard. Exactly true. He's trying to be very he's trying to be very hard. Correction there he hasn't got any nuts. Yeah he has but you need a very powerful microscope. Yeah and that's the one thing that you need one of two things. Bet you didn't know there was two. Here's me stamping on balls. Are you recording all this? Yeah I've got to go and wake up John now. John John It's a quarter past. Mm. D'ya want to turn your bath off? Pardon? He was early on dinner. Who what time have we got dinner? Yes. Half an hour er quarter of an hour. Right. Hurry hurry hurry get your bath while it's hot. It's all ready yeah when you are. The bath ran. See what I've written about . Are you going to be sending this? Are you going to be send this too? No I give it back next Friday. Are these batteries? How many messages have how many messages in the toilet? Eh? Erm I only I've only recorded one side. Are you toilet as well. Eh? toilet? Yep. Are you going to give these tapes . If he's not going to use them having yourself? Yeah I hope so. Let's see reaction you know. Look. Oh sorry I didn't mean to hit you that hard. Are you alright? No I'm not. I'm dying will you help me . Shut the fuck up. I'm not saying. I'm not stupid. You are. Alright those are in the closing seconds of this tape I suppose. . That's wrong isn't it? It's not here you knob. We got it Yeah your telling me. We're in the finale now lads give it all you've got. Who's copulating in the toilet? Wow going to the toilet. Big news hits the screen. cos I'm really cool. Yeah really. Course you have Hey quick Give me it oh crap you probably picked it up in the . You won't have time man. I'll have it if I can keep it. Pardon? I'll have it if I can keep it. there's a guy drinking er some tea and he's Fuck off. Yeah I know it's a crappy one. D'ya like the headmaster? No comment. You can actually see the level on on on the actual look. If you speak there's a black thing that appears. My name is What's this thing there this long bit? It's on the microphone. Get what? Get off. That's not the one. That's the one that I'm using . She told me this one isn't working so I'm using the flat one. You know in computers? Yeah. It's pretty boring. You should put into graphs. Yeah. We did it yesterday. Oh no Wednesday I think. That's one card today. D'ya reckon Mr 's a good teacher? He's okay . Not as good as who? Well I think he's at my other school before common entrance I had this teacher for two years got forty percent and that's . And then I got erm a new teacher for year and it went up to ninety. Not ninety eighty five. That's pretty good. It's the same with me. I was getting forty and I got up to ninety four. Bit of an improvement. How long have we got now till the end of term? Two weeks. In a week yeah. And then we There's about another two weeks after that or a week. Yeah. Another three weeks. Good eh? They were saying something to me about there won't be that bigger fall. I'm gonna get a new maths book. my maths book is getting thicker every lesson. Have to stick all my graphs in. Yeah I know. So that's why I'm gonna buy a new one. What've you got? Who with? Right see you later. So look, what I'm saying is I I'm warning I've warned you before do and it's mainly concerned with those right. Now Mr and I do the same for the two groups. His group he'll do the same test as the other group and it's mainly based on vocabulary. Mainly based on these words. If you don't know the words if you don't know what the Spanish or lemonade or you can't spell the darn thing you'll get a low mark right. Now end this term with low mark. You're free to you know the seventy five percent rather than saying I've got thirty four or something like that. Now erm getting to those words yourself instead, I'm sorry, things we haven't done for a week or two lots of word they'll be lots of them in the exam I'm telling you. You've got to know how to spell them. Those numbers you know names of and that sort of stuff. Now as the when er er I've nothing more specific than that. Mr usually sets it this one so er you know demanding high standard. So I mean those of you who have been getting appallingly low marks and there are some of you in this set and I don't get this every year. But got very low marks on some ordinary written tests give you twenty thirty words to learn. Some of you can't write them very accurately. Those people I'm do some revision okay? I might give you one to do it next week. just revise what we've done. And I will tell you that some time next week what was the scope of it is. You know. First six units or something like that. It won't be on a unit that we haven't done. Right? It won't say include ten or something like that which we haven't got to. So the point is yeah. Learn your words. Don't skive off. Some of you er you know it's taken a long time to get this message over. addicted to skiving around and not doing very much. Alright in lessons. I think just everybody participates very well in the lessons and make some good contribution. It's these tests that worry me. Erm that's what the exam's like. If you don't want to know now okay? If you do badly your house master couple of people and all this sort of nonsense. If you work hard you will not be in that situation. Okay? So I I when I know more about the exam I'll tell I I will tell you what's in it. It's all words in the first units there. That's what's in it. If you know them you're on your way to a good mark. If you can't spell and some of you last week even on Monday we because there were numbers of boys away we had that odd test. D'ya remember those of you who were here on Monday. Some of you weren't here, Richard wasn't. I gave you ten minutes or so of the lesson to look at some words. Get into them then we did a test on them. Spelling them. Some people even then numbers of mistake. See write the words out. You know. Er I I know some of you do but not all of you. Just write them out and get used to writing them. Go on then. What will we do in the test ? It's mainly . You know could be I'll I'll a large part of it may I don't know whether all of it but a large part of it will be here's the English for you know that sort of thing. So if you know what means. Or what's the Spanish for erm erm you know words like that. things we've done. spell erm spell the word and things but erm write down the words in Spanish for ham or Yeah we will. Yeah we'll say ham something like erm sir how to ask for erm where the next bus is going? It might do yeah. And it might have some more sentences like that. Cos then a lot of it will be on Scotland you know . So it's no good when it says Scotland it's not a erm Yeah now what's wrong with it? It's got an S erm It should have one. C. Yeah it should have a C that's right. Now you know Mr if it's spelt you may say oh it's it's pretty close. It's wrong you see. Another one. You might say ham put down the Spanish ham. Erm and he he will probably put watch out for this. Put the gender that's the gender you know the as appropriate. So don't just put cos er Mr will be saying no we can't have that one then. right? Or whatever it is you know. You know er I can't think of a work we've done now but er Yes places in the town and so on. Remember how to tell the time . Okay? I might do a bit of revision with you next week as well just to help you with it. But you're the ones it's not me it's you that counts in the end. How much you're prepared to do. I know some of you work very well on this and are very good. I'm afraid the old proverbial so anyway. Sir will we have to know ? Er preferably yeah but I don't think it will make a difference to you. You know. But certainly learn the genders chaps. I'm warning you of this cos you know it's disappointing if you don't do well. You know I can't you've gotta do it. You're the ones that produce the marks. Okay. Now Can I just can I just erm things with in front end in A. Yeah that's right they do. Yeah. That's a good rule of thumb that yeah. Er if you're stuck alright. You've written a word and you can't think oh god is it an L or a . If it ends in an O it's probably not always but probably going to be L and if it ends in an A as he says there it's a good point it's probably a word. So try and remember that. It may save you a lot of time a lot bother a lot of marks. Yea? You don't have to put L with the commas do you? No. Unless you tell . Yeah might be plurals as well things like that. So do revise your work carefully. Now unit six is very likely to come up in the exam so when you do this test for Monday you are in effect preparing for the exam. If you if you skimp on it you get a rubbish mark you have. Those boys who work on it they've that stuff up there ready for the exam you see. So anyway have a look at page fifty six cos I promised you yesterday that I would take you through the verb if you were you know the things you would want to to know about. So it's page fifty six and the prep was er the top two boxes and the bottom. You can miss out the three little ones in the in the middle there. Now so some of you who are not sure what how it all works out I said I'd explain it. And at the top one you can actually read it. What does that mean? Excellent and the place you can buy is a What's the place?yeah . Right so meaning . Have you got that Richard? So it might be a good idea to jot them in you got Is there a shop of souvenirs around here? Is there a souvenir shop near here? Matthew what does the second one mean? Well done good. Or where can where can one buy . He said I it can actually means you or one a person. But that's pretty good Where can you buy souvenirs to buy. What's the next one mean ? Yeah I would like good. Well done. and notice it's . It's the only word in that means I something it's not got an O on the end of it. So it's not there's no such word. Right. The next one erm Nick what's that mean? Anybody tell him what it means? Yeah I want I want a . So do make a decision I would like and I want. It means the same thing. But ones a bit politer than the other that's all. Now the er the next things they're not probably quite so important but it's worth. What does mean? Can I help you. Yeah good can I help and it literally means, In what can I serve you. You know it's can I help you. You know it's what a shop assistant says. Where is it? The second box. You don't have to say that ever really. Now we got on to this the other day does anybody remember that? It's a bit like that it's a bit like that. I'm very sorry you haven't got that . Yeah I'm sorry I'm sorry. There are various I am sorry. It means I regret is I regret and is it. That's what it means. I regret I'm sorry. Does anybody remember ?remember that? We do not have. We do not have. Or we haven't got any in other words. Somebody might be sitting there saying well how does he know it's er how does he know it's we I can't see a word for we in there. We you know that's Yeah the ending good that's it. We do not have. We haven't done the next one at all. Erm but it means, yes Matthew? Erm Yeah good. There's one word, Shall I wrap it for you?is I wrap is it and is for you. Shall I wrap it for you? So you could learn that. There's not problem about that. Matthew again. I'll take it. I'll take it yeah. I take I carry it. It means I carry or I take it with me. I'm taking it I'll have it. When you buy something in the shops . They're the hardest ones now the rest are fairly straightforward. Erm colours then er Alex do the first four colours on the left to see if you've got the right one. White black blue and yellow. Good. White black red and it's yellow is the slightly tricky one. and er Danny can you do the other little four? Erm what colours are those? Green Yeah. Blue red and grey. No they're brown Brown. Er green blue is brown alright. What one is You know well that's why he said red I think but it's it's brown. What is what is the Of what colour. what colour is. So you probably I wouldn't be surprised if he puts colours in the What's ? Brown brown. Now erm just just by way of look I'll just interrupt this slightly I'll come back to it in a second. Looking at those eight colours right?see if you can answer this. Er you've got eight words colours there, how many of those eight words actually make a change in their spelling when it becomes feminine? When it's a la word? Sorry? Four which four? No. Charles? Yeah the other four. Why is it the other four? Cos it No no. Yeah the ones ending in O change the ones that don't end in O don't change. Right? So the feminine of is . What's the feminine of Charles? yeah. So you . Right everybody got the idea then there. Next one we shall probably get on to today if we don't get stuck. is Matthew? What size? What size yeah. How big. is size. And next they all all three of them mean what size all three. they all mean what size but the first one is just, go on tell us First one's, What size, sir. The next one's, What size of clothes. Good well done. And the third one is, What size of shoes. Excellent very good. Very clear. First one is, What size anything. You know like a guitar you get the size of a violin or something like that. Or a band that's anything what size. Second one is clothes. What size jacket or sweater trousers. And the third one is shoes. What size shoes d'ya take what number. Okay now that comes up a bit in this lesson. go on again then if you Big and small. Big and small well done. is small large and small. I shan't put the next one in the test I don't think so. But it's a number. What number is it. Thirty six. Yes thirty six. It's size thirty six. Size thirty six shoes. I don't know what they're like blimey. But they have a different numbering system on the continent. If you walk into Spanish shops they're on size eight shoes I mean what would you mean what are you talking about. Cos their sizes all got thirty six thirty seven thirty eight that kind of thing. Right erm numbers one thousand to ten thousand we'll do then later on. Er do you know that one do you? Yeah. Do you want to pay at the counter? Yeah. Will you pay at the cash desk check out. is the counter. But that's a more difficult one because we're not used to that. Right then the the box at the bottom erm we should know all these. These are it's straightforward. Nick can you take us through the six on the left see if you know them already. Erm Anybody give him a hand on that one? Belt. Belt good. Right I'll do them again if anybody missed any. Fan jacket bag you'll know some of them already. Guitar belt record. Right now Matthew do the other do the other. sweets. Yeah what kind of sweets? Nougat. Nougat. Yeah. White stuff with er with erm. Erm raincoat gloves shoes and Excellent good. Nougat and then erm overcoat or raincoat topcoat. Gloves shoes where you put your . Any questions chaps are we all fairly ? Right. Get back to page . Perhaps after five minutes here and there revising those from other lessons so you don't forget it. Right. Page fifty what colour, we're going to do this er Right. I know we've done it but there are various objects pictures on page fifty. Taken from left to right and put a colour to it add a colour. Like for example er . You choose a different one from there. Somebody get a different colour . very good. Right. Next object and with a colour put a colour on to it. No before the Oh er No no I I'll come to you in a minute you work that one out. Go on Andrew. Erm Go on then Adam you see make it . Right. Matthew. Er yeah. Next one the purse. Robin. Erm What's this mean? Thank you very much. No it's okay it's alright. There we are. Well done. Er now that's er yeah now that's exactly Mr often communicates to me in Spanish. Erm it's what I was saying to you. Unit six end of unit six territory for the exam. Alright? Nothing in between you don't have to revise, even if you know next week I may I don't know, I may ask you to get on with unit seven. Unit seven is not in the exam okay? Unit six and up to the end of unit six. So what you're doing for prep this weekend is very exam . Are we just doing unit six? Up to unit six one to six yeah. And at the end of there's nothing beyond unit six okay? That's seems fair enough to me. So I'm about that. Right. Let's do the next thing. All we're doing you know prep that's what you're gonna do. somebody do that. Danny see what you can do. Erm Alright well pay attention. Matthew? we're at the . a white god. Right now erm look at the dialogue at the bottom of page fifty on the right hand side bottom right page fifty okay? I am the shop assistant Matthew you're the person coming into the shop so you do bit line two four and six. I do one three and five okay? Cos means okay. Isn't it is it right. So what we're, he's gone in asked for something. I said what he's given and I've repeated it back to him. Right. you choose a different. Right. Away you go. It was quite well read that those of you. Adam what's actually going on in that last the one these two have just read? Tell there's a little sort of slight story in it. Go on then. They want the sizes in the and they don't have them. Well you're getting there. Go on then. Erm he says erm If you can post the letter Eleven thirty second class to London Would it get there by tomorrow morning? Hope Mr isn't there. Chemistry's B L X I can get you one for free? How much I can give you Can you get me one? Can you get me one? I will send a letter as well as Move the microphone screws it up. Andrew. It's all talking from us. What's that? Oh it's one of those oh have you gotta keep that on during lesson. Just ignore it. Okay. Is it on at the moment? Shut up just shut up. Are you are you meant to just carry on as normal without without listening to Are you deaf? No Steven has to be deaf with ears like that. Shut up. That was not me. Am I allowed to swear? If you want confidential. be very confidential. It is. Okay. Er look that little dot thing goes up. I'm turning this off. Okay okay no don't don't I won't I won't. I'm turning it off. Just shove off don't talk about it alright. Talk about what? Danny? Don't talk about what? Who's this? Don't this we need This page is unlikely to be . I shall be dealing with that . Are you and sulphur together and looked at the the way in which they combined. Have you started metals and non-metals or Yes sir. What's the experiment? Oh I see. So we've not finished metals and non-metals. Yes okay. Okay so you you've looked at the the problems of metals. the properties of non-metals er so we ought to go through er non-metals and make the corresponding set of notes to the the reactions of metals. I'm sorry? Oh we're in the middle of an experiment. Yes I've just been told that. But since we can't carry on with the experiment now we've got to leave that till later on. So you've got a heading non-metals these are elements which do not have the properties of metals. So what properties do . So carry on under that heading that we've started non-metals. Boring. Got already the comment Sir can we turn that light off. these elements. Sorry? Can we turn that light off cos it's glaring on my book. Can we turn that light off please? So that's the statement that you have so far. Er already why you've got one there. Now what was the first property metals that you have listed What's the first property in metals that you came to? It's And so non-metals tend to be Dull. Dull. So the corresponding properties of non-metals they tend to dull. If you have seen a mixture of iron and sulphur and the lumps of sulphur didn't have a shiny polished surfaces that belong to iron and you can't make a mirror out of non-metal. You can't polish a lump of sulphur or a lump of Shall we put this under physical? If you subdivide it into four . What was the second property of metal that you have? Have you not copied out the notes yet?forms another property of metals that you have. Both property of that. This is non-metal Can you just just read off you've got the properties of metal in front you. What what the ne what's the property read along the list. Metals are shiny you said. What was the next property of metal? What was the value of ? What what to you understand by the term malleable? I would be grateful if other people were not chatting. D'ya know what malleable means? What does malleable mean Harvey ? Er to be able to stretch No not quite. You're thinking of another property. What is ? Erm be able to shape. Yes and it's it's the the bending and being beaten into sheets and moulding. Pulling is what? Er Erm What's the term what's another property you've got for metals there? Sorry? Magnetic. Well no. Er another term for for pulling a metal into wires. Yes? Ductile. Ductile. So physical dull metals are malleable you can beat them into sheets or can mould them. You can hammer them and get them thin or mould them to make panels for cars. That's malleability. Ductilance is where you can stretch them into very thin wires. And so when you're pushing pressing on that squashing it and making it flow into sheets the pulling on it and seeing whether it will stretch or whether it . What is the opposite of malleable and ductile? For non-metals if you try to hit them and beat them into sheets or if you try to stretch them you get? they're brittle. They're brittle. demonstrate brittleness of non-metals. The teacher's a right prick. If we take example of salt. Now you're being too noisy. Do you reckon all this traffic is from that match? I don't think this is now, what we have now, but when I was coming out to er meet you it was absolutely chocker right the way back to that erm last roundabout Oh right that was a bad do wasn't it, that disaster, with those girls, those school girls Yeah, I heard about that, I read about it terrible and I thought, but how could she, how could she have crashed I reckon she nodded off Do you, really? Seriously, it's the that's the only logical a only logical reason Yeah, but that's really quite bad isn't it? Dreadful, poor parents Yeah. It's erm, more than anything it's stupid, I reckon Well, all these things are done with the best of in intentions you know but erm that's the only, that's the only logical reason because they can't seem to find any other evidence as to the cause of it you see Yeah So it can only be human failure I E that she was driving and just sort of lost her concentration for a few seconds and that was fatal Stupid Well, these things happen Danny. It's no good saying stupid, it's just unfortunate. The only thing is the traj tragedy that follows. I read the two that survived, they haven't told them yet that the rest of their friends are dead because they they're gonna be too traumatised But surely they would have read the papers No, they're in hospital, badly injured What? what? broken limbs? I believe, well I don't know about broken limbs there were four that survived it, got out of the back of the back of the van but erm they had serious burns and such. Dreadful tragedy. I saw a picture of the wreckage Oh dear, oh dear Did it catch fire? Yes, it burst into a ball of flame on impact. It ran into the back of this motorway maintenance vehicle that was parked on the hard shoulder and er just burst into flames but how they can say they died instantly I don't know. I think they're just trying to relieve Cover up relieve the parents fe you know, fears as such. That must have been a horrendous death for some of them I've gotta do some more batteries for er Tomorrow I should think you the batteries you we could open a factory I would think What d'you mean? What do I mean? Yeah You have to put them all in a s in there Yes this probably, this one doesn't work. Oh it does now Oh, that tells you that it's alive, does nit? Yeah Oh I see oh right. Tells you how much life is in the battery Yeah Oh right yeah but erm as I was saying, when we on science this morning we were watching that film about the vitamins About the what? the vitamins, and erm it was a criminologist that it could help you mentally. Yeah, best thing. And wh what they did, they carried out this test and they er in American and they erm were giving him the pills. They carried out this test and er I think escaped, went down by eighty five percent Oh right and general behaviour we was really a lot improved because erm they had taken all their normal food like Mars bars and stuff like that and replaced it with like healthy food and er all the coke machines they replaced with like fresh fruit drinks. Like the can So what time should it be starting tonight? I believe it's seven o'clock, seven till about nine I believe. About nine? Mhm, or seven thirty, I'm not quite sure Hope mother's covered the change-over period Yeah concerned about Do these like pick up the sound of the wheels coming through? On these traffic lights been down to that football match actually cos it's absolutely nose to tail right the way there right the way down here Yeah, you know when England lost again oh, what am I saying, won against Spain? Beat them seven one No, it wasn't Spain they were playing Who was it? It was erm some backward-type country, can't think of the name of them now. I put it on in the pub, I put the television on Yeah, we won seven one Couldn't believe it when they got the first goal after ten seconds Who, England? No, the the other the opposition Ten seconds? Mhm, it's gotta be a world record that I would think in a world cup. Scored ten seconds, the game was ten seconds old. England needed to win seven nil to stand any chance and Poland needed to beat Holland in the f in the event Holland beat Poland three one so England, if they got seventy, wouldn't have got through Yeah but erm that that when the when we listened to it when we're doing prayer Pardon? We had that one nil down and we thought that was it, there was and then they came back seven goals Still wasn't enough goals though even if Poland had beaten Holland, England still wouldn't have qualified because they needed, because er the opposition got a goal, they need to be, they had to win by seven clear goals so that meant they had to win eight one, not seven one, you see. Oh. Well what about if England had won? If Holland would've still beaten Poland? That's the end of the game, that's the end of it because on on erm once h Holland needed to lose right, they had to lose, Holland, and er Poland needed to beat Holland and England had to win by a seven goal majority I E seven nil or eight one, seven one wouldn't have been enough even if Holland had lost What if It had to be eight one you see What if we had've won like fourteen nil? It doesn't matter. If Holland, Holland had to lose, that was the that was the deciding factor But why? Well because they had a better goal average in all the other games. See, it's like a league table. They all played erm, there was Holland Did we play Holland? Yes. Holland beat us. What was the score? I'm not sure actually, I can't remember. It must've been pr Taylor still has the temerity to hang on to his job. Brian Taylor Taylor's still in then Well he's still manager at the moment Well No, no signs of him resigning Well they kicked him out They should have done, but they won't. His contract doesn't finish until next July Next July That's when his contract finishes Yeah but even if we do get rid of Taylor who would become England manager ? that's the that's the point of er conjecture you see, they're not s they're not sure who who's going to take over I reckon it should be Ossie Ardilles No, it should be Venables really. He's the most experienced, internationally Venables? Mhm Why did they kick him out? Well because he suppose there was a personality clash between erm Sugar and the Board at Spurs and er a dirty tic tricks campaign against Terry Venables by Sugar and his associates and they've blackened his name now so that er I don't think he'll ever get the England job, but he's the ideal candidate for it Well, that's life as they say Yeah how's how's getting on with her new school? She seems to be settling in quite nicely actually. Erm, took her exams Did she do well? She seems to think so. The only thing she's a little bit shaky on what she owns up to is German, she wasn't too happy about the German. Doesn't like the teacher you see. You know what you children are like, if you don't don't take to the teachers you don't make your best efforts do you? No that's instinct I suppose I like all my teachers really Do you? Oh, that's good I reckon the best teacher's Mister Mister? What does he teach? Maths Oh maths yeah He's usually teaching chemistry but it's his first year of teaching maths Are you still enjoying that? yeah Good . Is she really like like isolated now that I'm at boarding school really Sorry? Is Beth really like isolated now I'm at boarding school? Oh she misses you obviously, more than she more than she'll erm admit cos you're very you were very close anyway weren't you, as brother and sister Yeah I suppose But erm, she's coping okay, she's got some, she's made some good friends at school. She's had two or three of them home to stay and things. So she's not doing too badly I mean, I keep on really telling her, the only real answer to like most of her problems is boarding. She won't board I know she won't board but I tell you, I tell you the main advantages of boarding is that a lot of times if you, you know when sometimes you get to the point where you've done so much prep and you've got lots more and you really you feel like you can't cope Yes well what we do is that we we all know each-other's hand- writing so we borrow each-other's pens and like last night I did all of maths prep and he, we'll both remember that, and then one night when I'm like under a lot of pressure to do some prep, he'll like return the favour Oh, you think so Yeah. Well, we've done it a couple of times before. The same in all our jobs. What, you share your jobs, do you? Yeah well we've got set jobs but I mean like we'll say look I'll do post for you today if you do it for me like whenever that's erm, that's the way comradeship is built, isn't it? Yeah Camaraderie. Very good It's ever so damp out, isn't it, look snow Oh they said there's a possibility of snow this evening There's definitely, we've already had snow at Have you? How's your dorm? Is that warm enough for you? Yeah, it's t well I wouldn't say it's too warm It's adequate, is it? Yeah, it's just right Good cos we were a bit concerned, mother and I, that erm perhaps it might er, being such a large area, that you may it might be a bit cold you know It do it does get really cold during the night but most of the time it's quite warm Oh good We've got one boy he sleep talks, yeah. His name's Mhm? ? Yeah What er Portuguese Portuguese, oh right We call him Yeah, he hates that Similar to , the cleaner Guess what they they've nick-named me? They write on all your lockers like they re-arrange your name. Oh, do they? They put on mine pussy lips Pussy lips?why's that? Well, instead of they put pussy lips Well, it's a sad thing if you can't laugh at yourself isn't it, eh? I have I haven't scrubbed it off or anything cos it is quite funny What other names are there? For me? No, for the other boys Oh er we either call him juvenile or fat bloke. Er we call him chipmunk or Trev. Er we call him weenor Weenor, why weenor? It's American for like a weed What, where is that? I suppose it's must have been re re-opened or opened newly opened and they're all well wishers that send flowers you see Dad, you know I erm like I haven't sent you at home that are like good for you bad for you. Does that ever confuse you? No, because I know ours are the best. There's ninety eight percent meat in ours. They are the best, they're made in Smithfield, Smithfield market, and they're the best ones yo I certainly haven't seen him come across any that are better. Even the Birds Eye ones, the pre-packed ones and what have you, frozen, are not as good as ours and that's the customers that tell us that. It's not me saying it, it's the customers Do we like sell a lot of burgers? Yes we do actually, just have to er, the difficulty is teaching the girls how to use that machine properly Dad, who in the world would buy a set like that made of really nice pine wood, that low? Pygmies? What? Pygmies dwarves Six year olds Six year olds That's so funny on the, have you seen that erm advert on John Smiths where he goes,, not me I'll just settle for a can of John Smiths, and dandruff There are some very clever adverts out at the moment I know Excellent. Seen the one with erm er guy makes out he's got a big bird of prey, he's got the erm leather glove on Oh yeah and the little sparrow comes little budgies comes up and I think that's brilliant and the guy's face captures it perfectly, you know the actual er smile on his face is ace, excellent. Did you, do you ever watch Bottom? No With Rik Mayall? No Oh it was so funny last night Watching tele last ni last night were you? Yeah. What happened was there was a burglar and er they went downstairs and they him over the head and then they put him a chair and they got the and he goes, what shall we, what shall we wrap him up in? And Eddie goes, let's use sellotape so he got all this sellotape all over him and he's like like mummified in sellotape and then they, he goes right, we're the hard men and we're really gonna tell him who's boss so erm and he goes over to him and he goes hello, erm, and he goes what are we going to say? And then the police come and they tape him to the top of the ceiling and all the police like inspect the flat and then another the robber's friend comes and he knocks them both out and he gets his friend down pigeon poison pigeon poison? they put it in the tea. And he go they're all yellow cups and he said erm he goes, which one's the poison in, and he goes aha, the yellow cup and he goes, but they're all yellow and he goes, yes but I've been really clever, I only put the poison in one cup so he goes oh what the hell and they shovel tea down him and erm he starts throwing up and, what happened is that when he, when he gets like cut down they ta take him back to the room and they put them in their boxer shorts just sitting there and they've wired up a mouse trap to like their their and erm one slight move and they'll go off Oh right and he goes why were you in my, why am I in my underwear seen my pants and he goes ah, here's a message on my knee and he goes P S Sue Carpenter and they look at each other and they go, Sue Carpenter whoooo and then the mouse traps go off and it ends with them going he got knackered did he, by the mouse trap? Yeah I tell you what what I did watch I enjoyed was erm called something of cards, house of cards, Sunday evening, a Monday evening it was Yeah Brilliant, it was all about erm politics, about the struggle for power Oh yeah It was absolutely ace it was, it was erm a drama but very very well written Was it good? Yes, I enjoyed it im immensely. There's a follow-up series on a Sunday evening now called king of something, king of can't think of the name, can't remember the name of it but it starts this Sunday evening at nine o'clock Oh yeah, do you know who's in the Guinness Book of Records? No You know that film star, Jean-Claude Van Damme? Yes Well he's in the Guinness Book of Records as the best overall martial arts person in the world Really? Cos he's erm he's the chief of kick-boxing. Have you ever seen him do that flying spin kick? It's brilliant isn't it? Yeah, I tell you what I did watch erm He won the judo er world championships Did he? and the karate world championships Oh right. Tell you what I did watch one night in the week on Sky was erm they've er they've done a feature on erm all these karate actors, you know, the best ones Yeah Absolutely brilliant it was Was Jean-Claude Van Damme in it? He was, an erm Did you see him really good Yeah and who's who was the one that died? Bruce Lee Bruce Lee Yeah, and there's another couple of guys and they were saying that how strict the training was when they first took it on you know that the their masters used to beat them and everything, into submission,s said they had to have complete submission before they could train them to be what they were, you know, bring them up, teach them and train them What d'you mean, submission? Well, submission to their masters. Humble. Oh right. And er the masters used to humiliate them to break them down you see and when they thought they were broken down enough Oh, look who it isn't Who isn't it? Looked like John Mhm? I thought it was John John who? no and if we have a close look hey there's nobody in we appear to be the most consistent pub in the area, with er customers and what have you. They all come in and tell us we're the busiest and I say well if we're the busiest, God help those that're the quietest. They cannot possibly survive. Did you tape that karate thing? No, no I did not. I don't know how to use the tape Was it on movie channel? Er, it was one of one of the channels yes talking to these stars you know and they were relating their training and also they were showing some of the best some of the best shots of them in action in films. God, it's erm absolutely mind- boggling what they do. The speed of them and everything you know, you you'd think the film was speeded up but apparently it's not. They are really that fast. And a couple of women er actresses, karate actresses, as well. One of those, she won the world championships in karate. Did you, did you see a clip from Jean-Claude Van Damme's film, Kick Boxer? Yeah, they did show that actually yeah Did you show you the bit where there's the hanging pots? No filled with water? It's amazing. They had their they measured it and it was eight foot high and he jumps up, spins around and crash really? Both of them smashed in one jump Good grief What the heck has happened? I know. I fancied the pub being decorated you see. Much improved, isn't it? Don't you think? Not yet but will be I suppose Okay? End of conversation one Looks as though the tape's stopped What alarm to? Seven o'clock Why did the alarm It goes off every, it's an hourly chime Where, on the tape? No, on my alarm clock, watch oh, on your watch oh right Bit of a coincidence there, it went off at the same time as this ha as the tape stopped Are they knocking all that down? What? Pickfords Well, apparently they've erm Dave was saying they've got to er vacate the premises When? I'm not sure when What, does Dave work there? Well, that's his, that's one of his depots, he drives out of there sometimes Oh right. What's Pickfords Travel? Pickfords Travel is a subsidiary of Pickfords Removals Oh in the year two thousand five hundred you go into Toys R Us and ah a flame thrower strictly for eight year olds. Do you reckon that, you know that idea that forty thousand? Yes Do you reckon that the world will end like that? Well, it's people's erm people's vision as of how they see it. Erm, they're basically based on the holocaust isn't it? You know, like the self-destructing Yeah There're always people that survive. Even in the last war when erm the allies dropped the atom bombs on er Hiroshima Where? Nagasaki er What, were atom bombs really powerful? Yes, very. And er th that brought the Japanese out second world war They put them out? Pardon? They put them out? They took them out of the war yes because er the allies dropped these two bombs on these two Japanese cities Only two of them? Well that's all they needed. They just wiped the cities out completely, raised them to the ground, but there were still people that survived it. But how, how er how many bombs are there? I can't think how many megatons it is but I mean, compared to wh compared to the bombs that the super powers have today they're literally like erm firing a catapult against a cannon, now, because the they're so many hundreds of megatons these bombs, these sophisticated bombs that the super powers have now, one bomb is capable of blowing up a city a hundred times the size of Nagasaki now, Hiroshima Yeah, one bomb's enough to kill the world Well, not to kill the world, but they they there are enough bombs in existence at the present time to obliterate the world about three or four times over so we're told, so we read no snow out here at all Danny is there? No It must've been a belt that's come right through central London and completely missed the suburbs, or North London anyway suburbs That's quite weird Oh, incredible. I thought we'd be literally snowed under here I can see a bit of snow there Where? Not much I can't see it look there. See it? Very very yes A little bit Apart from that there's nothing D'you reckon there'll be any snow at I wouldn't have thought so,no not erm here at all That is so odd Pardon? That is so odd Hot? No, odd Odd Yeah Well I can't believe it cos mom was really worried out erm about us coming out here the er main roads are fine, it's the side roads we've gotta watch out for, for black ice lethal How is it lethal? Well you don't know you're on it until you hit it and then you just lose your steering and your wheels just go all over the place How come Arabs are so rich? Not all Arabs are rich Yeah, but most No, only the ones you see, a lot of the ones you see over in this country How do they make their fortune? Through oil Through what? Oil Oil Got erm, they got all the supplies of oil underneath the sand in the desert Yeah What do we need oil for? Fuel How is it fuel? Pensioners a lot of oil. Erm power stations source of energy you see, one of the biggest sources of energy that we have at the present time next twenty years So how long is it gonna last? Well the North Sea oil that we've got Yeah They predict will last about another twenty years, maybe thirty years That's not much No they think that er by that time there'll be er alternative sources of energy, I E the sun, the elements, the wind, so we won't need as much oil. That's the erm perfect the battery cars you see because they'll all be battery driven very small units most of the cars will be Yeah, but you know Pardon? You know the current cars that are run by battery? Yes Yeah, well they're all erm like er they're really, the batteries that they use, they take up the whole of the boot That's right, that's what I'm saying. They've got to condense them down into to micro size, you know like the micro chip Yeah Once they can do that battery energy Was that big at one time? Pardon? Was a micro chip like really big at one time? Oh yeah, they just condensed it all down you see technology erm battery power then erm On what? you see, the alternative source of energy D'you reckon that there will be a one big nuclear war which will end the world? Beg your pardon? They reckon that there will be one big nuclear war which will last really long and will finally end the world Well I hope you're wrong So do I Why are people criminals? Sorry? Why are people criminals? Why are they criminals? Yeah this one? No no no no no Erm, well there are numerous theories put forward about it Yeah Some people turn to crime you see But why? Well they say they see people that erm have more possessions than theirselves and they see in their eyes an easier way of getting similar possessions. The easy way is to steal it off somebody else but then again you see there's an old old saying When you can't do the time, don't do the crime turn to criminology you must be prepared to accept the punishment when they get caught Yeah Dad,wh where're you going? Sorry. Down here, is that alright? Yeah This is the right one, isn't it? Er, yeah, I suppose Mhm? Yeah Yeah There's no there's no snow here Mhm? There's no snow here No, none at , amazing, truly amazing They said there was gonna be so much snow in It's crazy I think it's cold out Yeah well it is cold but there's no snow There is little flecks flecks of it Nothing like we've had in town though, is there? No This is where you have to be aware of black ice you see You can go up to full beam, can't you? Well it's not fair on the car in front Why? Well it reflects in his rear mirror can't see Why are we all of a sudden making that noise? Sorry? Why is the car all of a sudden making that noise? I think the erm water pump is on it's way out, that's normally what it means, the radiator the carbons are wearing on it There must've been a little bit of snow Not too much is there? No That's where I was talking about going, in there Yeah Yeah Yeah Anyway, we'll see what erm we'll see what sort of timing there is, okay? Yeah I bet there'll probably be snow tonight D'you think so? Yeah Well they've forecast there's plenty more up there Yeah So we'll see whose houses are these? The masters Sorry? The masters Oh are they, oh right, what all of this lot? Yeah, but different masters, not the headmaster No, where does he live, the headmaster? Er one. It's really massive though where he is Is it? Yeah Like a mini town, isn't it? Yeah With everything that's here, superbly Uh? Superbly organised Yeah I suppose. Oh there has been snow Pardon? There has been snow here, but not much. I just saw a little bit of it over there What? I just saw a little bit of snow Did you? Not much though, did you? Yeah excuse me yeah thanks Is that upside down? Don't think so Yeah it is Is it? Can you take the rest Yes Oh yeah, I just gotta get one Yeah I know Can I give you two tomorrow then when I've got it changed Shut up you fat bastard I've got ten P if you want to buy ten Can I give you this tomorrow then when when you've got change? Yeah Shut up, I give y can I give you this tomorrow when I've got change, please cos I need the sixty P If I give you nineteen P would you give me a I need sixty P for tonight Forget it, if I give you nineteen P would you I'm recording all this. Shit, didn't realise it It's quite cold Eh? It's quite cold More than quite Damn, wish that car wouldn't have started You don't wanna stay here surely? Yeah Why? it's gonna snow again tonight Best place where you're going Yeah but I wanna stay with you Beth and mom Don't be silly I wish we could just phone up and say that the car's been snatched Yeah I didn't last long he's up again anyway, isn't he? Yeah oh boy, that is a bit fresh out there, isn't it? Is it not? Yeah D'you reckon mom will agree to come with us on the skiing? I would think so, I hope so but I would think so as well Dad, d'you know with that catapult? Yes What are they used for? Erm, hunting Hunting what? Erm, vermin Do they kill them? anything can kill can't it? Have you ever seen a Black Widow? No Have you heard of one? I've heard of them but erm I haven't really seen one, no Have you heard of ? No, they're all makes of catapult, are they? Yeah. They d they should do them in like fishing shops Yeah. I'm sure that, what's that shop called back there? Ashpoles Ashpoles. I'm sure they hunting and game stuff and Yeah. I'd love to have a professional I don't see no reason why not, later on You know next weekend? Yes Can you pick me up? What Well I want to have another one Cos the following weekend will be a carol service Oh right, so you won't be allowed for that Well I am but I But we'll be there and so Yeah What time's the carol service, do you know? Erm, I'll look on this fixtures list Sorry? I'll look on the list Cos there is not erm, what I can do and arrange with Loretta and that is that er we could probably, mom and I could get out there early to you, and Beth I suppose as well, and erm perhaps go for lunch or something Yeah Yeah? Yeah? In that sort of big steakhouse you know that's erm Yeah Perhaps we could work it from there, yeah? Have a look at the times anyway yeah? Aha You're home next weekend anyway What? What was that? Yeah, I'm home next weekend Right, well we'll get it all sorted for then and we'll try and arrange a programme whereby we tie it up with Loretta or whoever that erm mom and I and Beth coming up to you and perhaps we can go out for lunch, yeah? Aha Would that be nice? Yeah Make a nice change, won't it? Do you reckon it will be a white Christmas? Well Do you reckon this snow will hold out until Christmas? No no no it won't hold out until Christmas. Normally you get two or three weeks of a bad cold spell Come a bit early actually, this Yeah, I was gonna say But see we're going back to the old seasons now. I can re I can recall when you used to have a couple of weeks of er bad weather before Christmas, snow and that, and sometimes even Christmas s er snow on Christmas day I remember distinctly one time there was snow on Christmas day I don't think you've seen it I have, I was When ? Well on that Christmas day you rolled up a big snowman Oh yeah, I remember that yeah Y we put it in the garden and I got really cold hands and then was just about to put them into hot water when you said don't cos you'll get chilblains That's right. Put them in cold water Yeah, and gradually heat it up That's right How can that erm you know if man doesn't destroy the world, well what's happening is that every year the earth moves towards the sun one centimetre. Did you hear that? I did not, no Well every year erm we're like at the moment a couple of light years away from it It's not gonna bother us in our lifetime, is it? No but Not myself, or yourself or even your children or that's what will eventually destroy the world if mankind doesn't Well, everything comes to a finish, doesn't it? There's a start and a finish for everything Yeah There's no point in getting paranoid about it Have you ever been skiing? We I remember once, my first skiing trip, there was a really heavy blizzard one night and it was s the snow got so deep that we couldn't open any doors, we were snowed in, yeah? Yeah So what we did, we carried on, we had had our lesson because we erm got out on to the roof and just literally jumped Really? It was that deep. It was so good. And wh what we did luckily the night I remember one time that we went to went skiing to with Lesley in Italy Yeah and er anyway all it was was like drizzle, rain and I thought oh God, no snow. We got in this coach Yeah And proceeded to ascend up the hills and that and still it was only drizzling. He stopped and put his chains on the wheels, got off the motorway, started to put chains on the wheels. I thought what the bloody hell's he doing this for? There's no er y'know no snow about and then about another twenty minutes of climbing this winding hill Yeah All of a sudden there's the snow and the ice and when we pulled into the village they got this fl flat roof some of the buildings and the snow must have been about ten twelve feet deep on top of the roofs where they cut a path through through to get to the village. I couldn't believe it. I've never seen so much snow in my life. Oh dear, that was a superb holiday that was. I really enjoyed that How many times have you been skiing? Pardon? How many times have you been skiing? How many times have I been? Erm, I first went when I was about twenty five and I used to go every year from then on Yeah, until, until when? Oh, right up until I was about thirty five, thirty eight, forty It's a long time Last time I went was a last time I went was about fifteen years ago, so I was thirty nine Was that good? the last time you went? Yeah, it was alright but I'd I'd more or less just met your mom then you see and I'd already arranged to go skiing. Went with Rupert. Oh yeah You know, from Yeah Went with Rupert and er another guy called Colin and er it was alright I remember once erm when basically all erm there was a gang of us had a sort of wine that was warm. Have you ever had it, like hot wine? Yeah, gluhwein they call that It tastes quite nice Yeah, it's mulled wine,ho hot wine Yeah Yeah And erm we'd got like jug each and there's about nine of us and we all took it up to one of the rooms and we drunk the lot of it and we were all like getting a bit a bit Squiffy Squiffy everywhere and erm that night the evening activity was tobogganing and we'd just finished all this wine. We go up the hill on the toboggans and you're meant to use your brakes and one of us did, and we just went flying off into the raging snow. You know when there's like that like a border of virgin snow to stop you, well we went flying into it. Have you ever done it on a toboggan? Yes erm er Rupert's brother, Ronnie It's crazy, isn't it? They used to used to go up this, as you say it was part of the erm holiday, used to go up this mountain, driven up this mountain then they'd toboggan down. What they used to do is get the er instructors used to come up and used to take the women down on a six and eight seated sleds, sleigh, toboggans Yeah Or, they had some two seaters. Myself and Ronnie, this chap erm Peter's or Rupert's brother Yeah We went down by ourselves. Well, how we got down alive I'll never know Were you going fast? We came off the track so many times in deep snow. I lost him twice, buried up to his head help me help me were you going really fast? Yeah, and we was on gluhwein that night Oh dear, we ended up with bruises and sore ankles and God knows what. It was absolutely enjoyed it Had some good times skiing Yeah. is that erm, have you ever been to it where there's like a ledge up here you know where you can ski round slowly down the mountain and then there's a part here and then there's a run going down there like that sort of thing. Well what we did we stopped at this track and we turned round and we went to there was like a twenty foot straight yeah, and there's like and everybody's sort of like going, no, not that. Cos it's like basically like that and we all went down. It was crazy it's all very good fun, isn't it? D'you reckon the snow will get any deeper? Sorry? D'you reckon the snow will get any deeper? Well I personally think it's too cold to snow tonight Too cold? Yeah, the way the ice formed on this car when I was trying to get the snow off off the windscreen and the ice and everything that was er, no I personally think it's too cold. It's bitter out. I mean this sort of er, we're inside the care here with the blower on gives you a false impression Yeah. Dad you know they don't do like your instructors thing for driving Don't they? No, but if you get in then you're allowed to like have it round Oh right. That's private ground isn't it? You don't need a licence you see on private ground to drive a car, you don't have to be a certain age either. No You can be as erm you can drive a vehicle at any age on private land D'you know ? Yes First time he ever rode a motor bike, like a two wheel, was when he was six years old. He's really good at it, at moto- cross. And for his birthday he got a Suzuki two fifty Did he? Yeah must be really good the thing that I really want to do in the Christmas holiday is go-carting In the Christmas holiday? Yeah Are we near Silverstone or Brands Hatch? Erm, we're not too far removed from er Brands Hatch, about an hour's run, three quarters of an hour to an hour's run from where we are through the tunnel Are we near Silverstone or Brands Hatch? Erm, we're not too far removed from er Brands Hatch, about an hour's run, three quarters of an hour to an hour's run from we are through the tunnel There's hardly, there hasn't been any snow around here No, doesn't look like it, does it? So d' you reckon won't have any? I honestly don't know Seems like it's misty here, doesn't it? No How amazing This looks like Lane Nothing at all here, is there? No Yeah really. They do that's why I get bored. just given me ten out of ten out of ten for clarity. Some of them are quite funny. You said they were Well you were Sunday. Is he? Yeah. I didn't write any of that one. Me? Oh it's one I didn't. Where's Liam? Here he is. Liam you n illiterate knob. You wrote that. Who me? Yeah. I didn't write any of the you prick. I am a dick. I am a prat. Wow okay. Pull her back on your head. I am the tip . Look I've found my dick. Now he goes I've found my dick put it back in your head. You mean you bought out I take it that nobody likes Liam. He goes you . Get off my I notice he's got . Please leave. loves that. He just thinks she he just fantasize about them. Someone put her poo in my locker. Oi Fadge. Fadge. Fadge. Fadge. Oi Fadge. Fadge there's a flab going round. Oi Fadge Fadge Fadge Fadge Oi Fadge I'm sorry. Make make it nice. Wait I've got the microphone. Did I tell you or did I not tell you I take it back I take it back. that you wouldn't make it. There's no point Oh I take it back Reg. You can never run away. Alright I'm sorry. Are you? Yeah. Next time you say it you really are gonna wake up in hospital okay? Alright alright. What did you call him? Fadge. Is this thing still working? Fudge bum. Fadge. ran for. I most probably won't be coming to . You haven't got flu. How d'ya know? I more fast. No you didn't. Well I didn't cos I was weight weighed down. And I was too bothered about the microphone. Those two and I've got your keys. Where? In my hand. They're 's aren't they? No them 's. That was funny. I shouted out, Oi Fadge. I said about a million times. Fadgey Fadgey. And I was and he goes, There's no escaping my . I go . are you playing today? Yeah. Well what the hell are you doing? When are you playing ? What you playing after school? I'm knackered. You recording? Up your mum ignore it. I don't think he is actually. It's a mister you're just a snowman. I'm not a snowman. Geezer. She looks like a geezer. He's such a skiver isn't he? Yeah. Yeah you are aren't you? Oh to have your keys. Mark just give them. I haven't got them. Oh man did you see Reg peg it after me? I shouted out, Oi Fadge. Fat . sawdust. Ee god I wonder how many times that's been said. Hi . Hi Danny. Hi . Where am I going down these You alright ? And it take twenty four hours to go round once. If you're on the equator of the earth, that means get twelve hours day time twelve hours night time. But because the earth is tilted a bit some parts of the globe get longer days in the summer and longer nights in winter. In fact at the moment we're just about getting to the longest er night the what's called the equ er sorry the solstice that occurs on about December the twenty second. That's the shortest day. So November the twenty fourth we've got about one more month of the days getting shorter erm before the days start getting longer again. And Well at this time of the year the the the night is relatively long and the day is relatively short. It doesn't get light until about six o'clock in the morning and it gets dark It's pretty cool. by half past four. By this time next month we're just about at the solstice we're find that it's not getting light until about seven o'clock in the morning and it's getting dark again by about half past three. The days become very short indeed. The nights become very long. The opposite thing of course happens in the summer. What we loose out in the winter we gain extra in the summer in the summer time. Instead of just getting twelve hours light twelve hours dark we get you know it might not get dark until eleven o'clock at night and it gets light at about four o'clock in the morning. So you get extra daylight then. Okay. We also mentioned the fact that we don't go round the sun in exactly three hundred and sixty five days. It actually takes three hundred and sixty five and a quarter days to go round the sun. So that means every four year there's an extra day which we need to take account of. So every fourth year we have an extra day in February which we call leap year. Okay. What we need to consider today to start with is in fact what the moon The moon is a natural satellite of the earth. We've only got one moon but that's erm by no means the limit. Some planets like Jupiter has got half a dozen moons. As the earth goes round the sun so the moon goes round the earth. Yes. Okay? So if this is the sun here the earth here the moon goes round the earth whilst the earth is going round the sun. Does the moon go round the sun with the earth? The moon goes yes of course it does else it would leave it behind. We'd only see it once a year if it stayed where it was. So as the it's really quite a complicated system. As the earth is going round and round the sun, we take the the overhead projector here as being the sun, the earth is erm actually no that's not gonna work. Okay two volunteers. Me. I was gonna go up today but I couldn't be fagged. Okay let's let's er try and illustrate once again. I'm going up tomorrow. You are the earth. I want you to go round the sun . pretty good but not that good. Okay? I was better. Now you should take a year to go round there. Obviously He's trying . Let's see you'd be to to correct time scale. Anyway keep on going. Right now as you are going round the sun so the moon is going round you. Going fast going really really fast. Now sixty five times and every time it goes round once. how many times does the moon go round the earth whilst the earth is going round the sun? Twelve times. Nearly twelve. Look. Okay so you get the idea. if you spread out the sun . Okay? There are thirteen months in a year. There's twelve. Right okay thank you. From then the moon goes round the earth in twenty eight days Sir there's twelve twenty eight days. Now most of our months are thirty days or thirty one days and there are twelve of them. In fact if you add it up the moon can go round the earth thirteen times in a year. Twen divide three hundred and sixty five by twenty eight. Somebody got a calculator? Divide three hundred and sixty five which is about the time that the earth the sun by Three hundred and sixty So there are thirteen lunar months in one year. The moon doesn't the earth goes round the sun so the moon goes round the earth. It takes twenty eight days for the moon to orbit is the correct term for going round something, to orbit the earth. This is called a lunar month. There are thirteen lunar months in one year. Sir but I thought there were erm per month. Sorry? I thought there were per month. There are thirty days or thirty one days per calendar month but a lunar month is always the same. It's always twenty eight days. Because our our months have come down to us from all sorts of historical reasons. Erm yeah well actually it would actually be much more sensible to divide the year into into thirteen months each of twenty eight days because twenty eight days you will realize is two fortnights so you can divide the year very nicely into thirteen equal periods. Okay? And now all of them have months which are always the same length of four weeks exactly four weeks so you'd always know the first of the month would be a Sunday or whatever day you choose to start on and the seventh would always be a Sunday and the fourteenth would be a Sunday and so on. It would actually put Er you would actually at the end of the year. What what is thirteen times twenty eight? Can you do that? Twenty eight. Three hundred and sixty four. You'd have one day left over okay. So you'd you'd that could be Christmas day or new year's day which wouldn't be part of any month. Okay so you could you could organize the year into different periods. Okay anyway it takes twenty eight days for the moon to orbit the earth. Yes. My sister was born of new year's day. Okay. The orbiting of the moon round the earth causes two effects. Tidal. Which is aware of. The first one are tides. Now the moon is relatively a big object. It's not as big as the planet but it's a pretty large one to . And because of that it has got gravitation and fields which isn't as big as the earth, it's only about one sixth as big as the earth. But it's still quite a sizeable gravitation pull. And this has an effect on things which are within the reach of that gravitational pull. And the planet earth is within the reach of gravitational pull and things on the earth are attracted by the moon. Not very much because the moon is quite a long way away but there is amount of attraction. Now what this does it actually pulls the water of the seas towards the moon. So the bit of the sea that is near to the moon has more water in it than the bits of the sea which are further away from the moon. And that causes what we call the tide. The gravitational pull of the moon pulls the seas towards giving rise to the tides. As this works well different craters on a all this spacecraft here. Here is the moon. Now if we can sort of simplify the whole thing forget about the continents and that sort of thing what happens is that the sea water is attracted, obviously not this much, but the sea water is attracted towards The sea is attracted by the moon and you end up if you like with this bulge in the sea Now what is not so easy to understand sir wouldn't it be Sea water attracted Sir What is actually happening is that you also get a high tide on the other side of the globe as well like that. The sea water comes out in the bulge towards the moon and it also comes out in the bulge on the other side of the of the earth towards an anti Now the easiest way of explaining this. I mean it's not very at all. But the easiest to explain it is the fact there is that less gravity on this side holding the sea water in. Well because erm the moon here has a gravitational effect on the sea water as we can see on this side. The moon is that much further away from the sea on this side so that'd have that much less of an effect holding the sea water down on to the earth and therefore the sea water comes Now obviously the water from the high tide has got to come from somewhere so they'll be some parts of the globe low tide. Why does why gravitational pull No there's less gravity. So a low tide Yes. So why does it all bulge up on the side The moon has an affect holding the sea water on to the earth when it's on the far side of the earth. If you can imagine that . What makes it confusing is the moon is spinning round all the time. Let's say say for argument that this is the moon this sphere. Now that's instead of spinning round the moon is stationary in the sky, just for the sake of this Now, the moon on this side obviously will be attracting the water on the surface of the earth so you get a bulge in the sea here. More water will be attracted and therefore you get a high tide in this region. If you pour water into this region you get a low tide where the water's come from. Now, you get a high tide here because the gravitational pull of the moon here is very very small. Okay? So it's sort of can float up because of pull pulling it down. Pulling it down to the earth Right okay can we get to forget the moon. There there is no moon there is no moon. The moon doesn't exist. Okay? The water is equally spread over the surface of the earth there are no tides okay. The moon magically appears from somewhere. Now, if we consider the moon and the earth as a big system gravitational system there is now more gravity in the system than there was because the moon is supplying the of gravity of it's own. Now, if the moon was just part of the earth the moon's gravity would be adding to the earth and then there would be generally more gravity all round. But the moon's gravity isn't part of the earth, the moon's gravity is with over here. Okay? So that means this the effect of having this extra gravity means that the extra gravity isn't equally dispersed in the whole system the extra gravity is located in one particular spot where the moon is. Now this means that this part of the globe the bit nearest to the moon will have more than it's fair share of gravity because it's got the gravity of the earth and it's got the gravity of the moon pulling all the sea which will cause the erm sea to bulge up in this region. This part of the earth which is a long way away from the moon it's as far away from the moon as you can get the opposite side of the earth, has got less than it's fair share of gravity from the system because it's so far away from the moon. So therefore there's less gravity holding it down therefore it would bulge out a bit. As that's the best I can do I'm afraid. Now it's not that simple because the moo the earth is spinning round the sun in space so this has gotta be moving round this way. Meantime the earth is spinning as it goes round the sun. Meantime the moon is going round the earth and in the relative movements of the sun and the moon and the earth means that the moon doesn't just go round. It would be quite simple if the moon was level with the equator and went round the equator like that. In fact it doesn't go it does not cover a part of the earth. The combination of the path of that the moon travels and the rotation of the earth means that the moon at one time or another covers the whole goes round goes above all different circ all different places on the earth. Now the gravitation towards moon. All seas towards the moon are giving rise to tides. And you get a high tide in the seas nearest the moon and also oddly enough in the seas the furthest away. Basically at this level as long as you understand the moon attracts the sea water and therefore you get high tide oddly enough in the seas furthest away from the moon. So why d'ya get two high tides a day. Well because one high tide is gonna be the When it's near you. When it's near you. And the other tide will be the anti high tide when it's on the other side of the earth. Does that mean that when you the moon then the high tide will ? Erm yes. There's a certain amount of history because the moon is if if the earth is spinning round the moon is going round the water that the moon is attracting will be rushing to catch up a little bit. Could be that there would be a delay. So there would be a delay yes. And when you can see the moon the water that's rushing along trying to catch up with it might not actually have been there yet. So you not quite that simple. Sir? What. You know You can't see all of the moon The moon is the bottom bit. Yeah but you can't cos the the sun here the sun will be about here on that picture and all you're doing this this shadow on the on the bottom half of the the earth is caused by the moon getting in the way. I'm not saying that's particularly realistic that's not a picture that's er that's a painting anyway. I'm just I'm just going to I'm just going to talk about the second thing anyway. Phases are the moon. As the moon hits the earth it's appearance changes depending on the relative positions of the earth moon and sun. N B N B when you see the moon you are looking at light from the sun reflected from the moon circles. Sorry? No no. Er not particularly. In the sunshine it would be quite warm yes. Because there wouldn't be very much atmosphere to Sorry? Er yes in in on part if you were part of the moon that's facing the sun it would get very hot. Oh it's bright when there's light shining through. But it's brighter than ordinary earth air that's light because there's nothing to erm nothing to get in the way of the erm . Well there's nothing there to see. You can only you can only s you can only see light A if you A if there's something if if you've got an organ to see it with and B if it's shining on something. If you shine if you shine a torch into a dark cellar you can't see anything okay? Yes you can. Well yeah but what you can see is the cellar because the torch beams have hit the cellar and it's and it's back into your eye. When you shine a torch at something you what you are seeing is light being reflected back on to things into your eyes. You're not actually seeing any of the light that's coming dir directly out of the torch. The light that's coming out of the if if you're shining a torch like this okay? the light you're shining is going away from you okay? You can't see anything there. If you were shining it into pure nothing you wouldn't see anything. Because the light would just be going off into nothing and not coming back. If you've got some dust floating round in the nothing you would see specks of dust. If the person walks through nothing you would suddenly see the person as he walked in the light. Okay right. Let's consider several situations. Here is the sun here is the moon and here are you an observer. I'm going to it going to do it that way but you can see it the earth is round. Right okay. Here is here are you on the earth the moon is up in space and the sun is over there. Right. The sun's rays are shining off into space like that. When they hit the moon part of the moon they hit is bright and the part of the moon that er they don't hit Is not bright. is dark. Now you will see from your point of view the moon will be will be about half it will be it will be more more than that I would think. So you will see part of the moon Right. When you look at the moon half of it will be in light half of it will be in dark you will see a moon which looks like half a moon. What if the what if the moon is over here though? It will be less light and more dark. No. The light will hit the moon and half the moon will be in darkness and half the moon will be in light yes? Well because when you shine a light on to a board only half of it is gonna be facing only half of it is gonna be facing. So there will always be a dark half and a light half. The dark half No that's that that will actually be a full moon practically. Because you will you standing on the earth looking this way will see You won't see the dark bit. you won't see the dark bit. The dark bit when the moon is like that is furthest away from you. You will see I know this is I know this is the earth and not the moon but you get the idea okay? You ought to be see No not really. a big round And a dark bit. a big round thing yes. Okay? Because the light is shining directly on to it. Look the lights are shining. No. So what I would give you give you the appearance D'ya have to draw this? Yes please. Be a full moon. Now. Can you imagine that you've got the sun here shining a light at the earth there. The region behind the earth will be in shadow yes? Yeah night time. That that part of the earth will be in darkness it will be in night time on that side of the earth and from then on in space there will be darkness because the earth will be in the way. What if the moon is there? It will be totally black. That bit will all be dark cos that bit will all be dark because it's in the earth shadow but that little bit there that little bit the little bit that isn't in the in the earth's shadow the appearance there will be a new moon. Do we draw all the moons? No. it's called. Like a banana. Now. There are some nights when there isn't any moon at all. How can that be? Cos there's er A blitz. in completely in shadow. Right. Why else might there appear to be no moon? on the other side of the sun and the moon's on that side and we're on that side we're in the light. Right. I think I think what you're trying say is that the moon has come out during the day. Quite often the moon as the earth moves as the earth rotates the moon appears to rise and set in the sky. Just as the same when the sun rises and sets in the sky. Now. What time of day it rises and sets in the sky depends on the relative erm placing in the in the heavens of the earth and moon and sun. Now it may well happen that the moon rises in the sky but because it's in the earth shadow we can't see it. Cos the moon's got no light of it's own. What you're seeing the moon by is the reflected light of the sun. So the moon rises in the sky you can't see it sets you can't see it so there appears to be no moon. The other where you might find there is no moon at all is if the moon comes up during the day time. Comes up in the day time. Some times in the day time you can see the moon especially if it's on a particularly bright day. But if it's brilliantly sunny a blue sky day the moon can be up as well but because the s because the sky is so light anyway you can't see the moon. Okay? Now. The moon comes up during the day time it's up in the day time it sets during the day time. When the night time comes up comes along you look up in the sky and say where's the moon gone. What you haven't realized is that you've already had the moon for that day but because it was up and in and in the sky during the day time hours you didn't see it. Why does the moon always move up following you? Because it's far away. On some nights there will be no moon to be seen. Usually because it has arisen and set during the daylight hours. Okay. Phases of the moon are tricky to explain. There's a good poster up there if you are interested. Let's just pop outside for a moment and see what we've got to see tonight. Did you record all that? Yeah. No you didn't. It's sleeping. Well I swear there was a moon I swear there was a moon earlier. I think what's happened the moon is is either set already or it's so low down in the sky we can't see it because the buildings and things are in the way. Your life story about being bent. Oh Look mate. Do they look alright now? No. Right. Okay. The route to the solution of some earth and moon also give rise to eclip oh know can't even spell it now, what I'm trying to say is eclipses when one heavenly body gets in the way of another. Okay same diagram as before. Here is the sun here is the earth with you standing on it. Now can you imagine a circumstance where the moon in it's journey around the earth the moon is directly in the way of the sun yes? So when you try and look at the sun you can't see it. Okay? Because the route is directly in the way. Now what happens during the day time when you get an eclipse is that the sun is up there in the sky big golden circle Yeah. and the moon starts coming across the sky as it does and it gets in the way of the sun. And a little chink on the other side A chink? of the sun. Okay? I don't know how to do this. Okay so here comes the moon it's coming in the way of the sun coming in the way of the sun and what happens is in fact when the moon eclipses the sun It gets completely black. It goes almost almost completely black. And the moon gradually keeps moving as it does and moves up away. Now. It is is a matter of coincidence we think that our moon is just exactly the right size to fit over the sun from our point of view. When we look when we look upwards in eclipse what you can actually see if if you can imagine that's a circular quite like an if I was really together I could have made a circular Sir can I go to music lesson? Yes alright. There's a house message for Kiplin their first one erm Tuesday. What? First house match for Kiplin on Tuesday. You still Yeah. When you coming back on? Next term. You could've been on No I feel that I can play rugby now and he's saying no it's not worth it. Why? I dunno. Cos he'd be hopeless team. Simply just give me the ball don't What? No he was just saying it's not worth going back on now. It's cos of the matches. Cos it's so near the end of term. Yeah but you can play for the house team but you can't Not nearly play for the school. No it's not. Yeah I know. House Single Germans now okay. My wrist feels really well . Single Germans now. No Reg is still No Reg isn't playing. It doesn't hurt very much. Reg are you not playing? See Reg isn't playing. It's Germans. You can play house rugby. Which is ten a side so it's not a physical it's more a running game. Yeah well I'll ask I'll ask my mum but if I if I didn't I'm gonna have to get perhaps running game here and he'd be false time and would be very unfit. Yeah but then he'd be then mad. Oi Matt. Is Matt in it? Might be. Oi Matt you Oh yes I've been and outside. Don't break the bat just smash . No one 's breaking it why See you smashed that bat against the wall. I'll be on match team. Just serve Dick. I'll be on match team. practice. Yeah I am. Yeah I know. No he wasn't. If I muck up a serve I'm off. I'll be on your side. Hey just just stay back. Get out of here. Yeah. I know. I'm gonna call quiet period.. I'm not playing any more. Okay single Germans Oi one of you two It wasn't me. It was . It's Adam. Smelly shit. Go on Guy. Thunder. It wasn't me. It's your serve . Yes I served. Didn't you hit it? It's your serve Danny. the serve. Oh. He was not in the way. Oh sod. Well he was in the way. I thought you were gonna hit him. Mark I'm still on. I am. He's still on Matt. No I'm not he's still on. It is I'm on. You gotta hit the guy. I'm on. He's still he hit it. If the ball hits the person you don't even go Look what's the point of Yeah. Yeah. Yeah to hit the ball. What's the point. No cos he'll miss it cos it was on. It's pretty stupid just cos you hit it on tape. That is So you're off. Justice is not done. It was done. Was not done. See? Justice was done. Is this your set? Ping pong. won ping pong. tennis with this. The ping pong. Look okay which where's that How can you hold it like this You don't have to hold like that you can hold it You hold it like this Hold it back hand yeah. Always back hand it. Just always back hand it that's what I do. Come on. You always miss it. I'll just keep on playing table tennis. Don't. Don't throw his bat. Don't. Sorry Mark he pushed me. See that bat's useless for long rallies. Which one? This one. No it isn't. Yeah I so that doesn't count. You just Nobody's aced me properly. Oh this bloody microphone. I need more masking tape. shit. You've broken it you've broken it . Give it to his back hand No your not. Yeah I know now you're Miguel was in the way I protest. You'd never stretch that far. I will. You were standing over there pretending Alright then over here yeah? Danny you're off. No the ball I was over here the ball was over there. No we don't want you playing. Anyone coming down to ? Yeah. Why does and I'll pay you back. Yeah and me. And me. Just shut up. It's only ten P. buy me one I haven't got any money on me. I've only ten no I've got eight P but I Well buy me ten P of one. See? hopeless. Sorry . Let's play zing zong What's there? There's ting tong there's zing zong And there's zong zong there's a lot more. There's wing wong Matt you're on. Oh no. you're such a dick. And you're a dick. You are really Matt. You've got a highest pitched voice I've ever Oh good one Danny. Up your mum. Up your mum. Oh Daniel's so bored. I dunno. It's up to you. Is that it? Is that it? Is that the microphone? Yeah. How long's the tape for? Er since last Friday. I've gotta give it back this Friday tomorrow. Have you broken it yet? No. is it is it the Norwegians. Yeah just forget it. Don't don't, ignore it. I was the newcomer. You gonna say ernie gernie Yes your serve sorry. Does it record whatever you say? Yeah. What and you you put all of it through? Yes. Can you wipe the swearing? Yeah. You can wipe a lot. This is my normal . Well it has got actually any of Danny on it. What it is is It has got a lot of me on it. Doing the Milky Bar Kid. And being really stupid. Who ? Yeah. You are a dick. Does it pick up Yeah. If Adam was speaking like he is now that pick it up. Danny is the loser so He was in my he was in my last form. Weren't you Danny? He was in my form. Right you're off now here we go. Got a really thick as well. He always used to cry didn't you Danny? Why was he in your form? Because he was in our year. He was so thick that I was in the same form as Dan. Really? But Dan he he cried like once a day or something like that. You did you didn't like us at all. He was he was a real psycho case. He was a loner. Try again. Danny you're on. Whose side? Miguel. Me. I hate Alex's bag. It's good. You got any books Alex? See just can't. I love this game. Try and play with him. And sometimes it's alright. Who's side? Can I play? Why can't he play? Hey don't use my bat. I was joking. Okay me and Danny . Cos I don't like your bat Alex. Okay. I'll start serving. Yeah? Or d'ya want to serve. Oh you start. No just bounce it. It's going out now now this is for . No serve . Who's with who? Me and Alex you and . You volleyed that one. Yeah you won't be playing with one another. No but you volleyed the Yeah you lost anyway. So? If he volleys it erm after the line it's my point. If he missed it and if I was, even if it's up there. Alex is so Okay. Watch me beat him. I'll beat him any day. I've gotta perfect my serve. Have you beaten anyone yet Danny? Yeah. Who? Miguel. Well I just mentioned about the microphone Aye? I just mentioned with that microphone. Cos I'm taking part in this Norwegian project. What project? Norwegian. It's crap. You love it. You love it. what's it all about? D'ya just go round record recording everything? Yes. Matt? Shall we take this off tonight? What? Take this and stick it? I should've ended it before that. Get out of here. Oh lucky. Five times. It's good. Six times. Danny come on. You can serve. D'ya want to serve? Yeah. Sometimes. I don't mind serve. It would help you. Just a bit not much. Eight times. It's on the other side Alex. Alex on the other side. Alex. Oh Matt oh Eight times and it all comes to an end. It's only cos the mistake wasn't Alex . Shit. I didn't think that was going on. Was that an obstruction as well Danny? I said that. Alex entered on too quickly. You haven't it four times. Yeah it's five . No it's four . Get out of here. Danny What? I didn't. Danny hasn't won a rally in ages. Yeah but you can't that was a little bit fluky you know not much. I think I should let him get five. Anyway we can't get all the, they're gonna properly. You can't get all the Is anybody coming down the grubber. Anybody coming down the grubber. I've just been down to the grubber. Okay come on let's go grubber. Aren't you playing any more? No. Put my ball back when you've finished yeah? Going down the grubber? Yeah. Are you? Yeah. What's that? A microphone. It's what? A microphone. Why've you got a microphone on? Project Norwegian. Say that again. Norwegian project. Do you do you know Norwegian? No not really. Well what's this main idea. They wanna know like English accent. Who? It's a university in Norway. Why you? I dunno. Why not? They just picked you at random? Yeah. They just wanna find out and it's recording? Yeah. All right darling? Just ignore it. grub is better than this one down here. Yeah oh yeah I remember It's cheaper. It's cheaper. Alright Danny? Can it hear me? No. Why? This is programmed just to hear my voice. Is it? Shit it must be quite a little thing if it can only hear your voice. It's dum actually. What it can only hear your voice. Stupid. It's not. It is stupid. Stupid alright? You sound like Alex. Alex who? There's this guy in our in our and everyone jumped on him in his bed and started . He goes he goes he goes, Get off don't . Quite funny really. Everyone They all say . You know in there's all these passages underground passages. Is there? There's an entrance in . Why? You go down in and if you've got a torch you can go all under quad Why? In these passages. Is that because of the war? Yeah. Er no actually it was before the war. Go on? Do people still go down there? No. it's probably all locked up. Cos it's scary. This is so slow. There should be two people doing it. I know look. She's a dwarf. How's ever gonna get like top shelf sweets? I'd laugh if somebody asked for some, what are them lemon bonbons. And she pulled the whole thing down. Are you allowed to swear? Yeah. They all they know about me is that my name is number twenty eight. Do they? Yeah. Q P R? Swore Q P R? Me? Says that here. Where? Operation. That's O P R . You know the last one. Did you go the last one? Oh junior school? Yeah. Erm you know the Keens did they go? Well was one of them moved down to form or ? No. was in the same year. But he came later. They they took the mickey out of him so much that he cried. He did he ta he came later. He sort of Are you going to erm are you going to rugby? Are you in the team? Are you in the team? Who with ? Have you got any writing paper? No. What for? Erm I just want to fake a letter. Fake? Yeah. No. You know you could really lug it do it. It's really cool they way you know you can hear. I know. They're gonna do shit to me I know. No they just wanna watch to T V. Well why do they want me in house? To watch T V So that I can like watch T V or something. So you can't hear and then . Well annoying you like they're watching a porno. Yeah but they were they were watching Neighbours earlier. Would you be ? Yeah. What's your nickname Twenty two. Trebor mints . Stick 'em up the Flaming heck. Right what can we do here? Ha. I've just snapped it. You asked for something rarer lasts a bit longer. Ha. Get now. Trebor mints are a little bit stronger. I'm gonna try and chuck my red book at the window. Okay first shot. Does this ? What? What? Yeah. I nearly got my red book out the window. What shall I put that's really offensive to Miguel? What did you put what d'ya mean that's really inferior. What d'ya mean crap at everything. Why's it always come out screwed up? No this things fart. It's screwed up major. Major screw up. why you off games? Because. Are you are you at three thirty? No. At three? You are really. Are you? Crap nut. Are you? Going up on the board outside? Well if you're on game at three then you've got three minutes. I'm off games. Why? Cos I'm ill. Where the hell have Shall we smash it or lob it out the window? Let's drop something out and we off we go out the window. We'll not tell anyone. Goes that'll be funny. No nothing big. Here Matt. There's somebody that I'm gonna watch this right? Dead funny. That's it. Right erm this is so funny. What shall we stick in the ground. Look there's a fork out there. What shall we stick in the ground? Melvin you fat dump. Wasn't very nice Danny. Right let's see if there's anything. Is there any more cutlery? Let's try and have a go with some more cutlery. Spoons won't work. Spoons won't do. Er nothing else. I'll try a spoon. No don't bother. Like that. Trebor mints are a little bit stronger. I've got English work to do. I didn't do it yesterday. He's ex . Freeze. Jump around jump around. Jump jump jump. Hi ho hi ho it's to do my history project that's my fucking . Hi ho hi ho hi ho. History project . It's beyond the fag I hate it. It's shit. I dunno why we bother. Yeah I know. I mean always some book Yeah we actually. That wouldn't be quite a bad idea wouldn't it? What? I'm going out on the not a special exit but a normal exit tomorrow yeah? Mm. Are you doing anything over the weekend? No. You could come back for like an exit with me like when we come back you ring your dad again. And if you like get a catapult that'll be cool. I know some brilliant places where we could use them. On trees you know. Yeah I'll see you can borrow it or buy it. I say come on try it out but it's Yeah. They they won't sell us one though. Well they sold me an air rifle on my own. What d'ya do if they get Excuse me can I have a erm two two air rifle please? And he's gone, How old are you? And I've gone, Fifteen. And he believed me. And he's gone, Well you're under age so where have you got a parent with you? And he's looked and then, Well he's out he's out in the car at the moment. Yeah that's that's what they asked me. Look you see the one just across the street there. You can't exactly see him. But can we like erm hurry up please cos I'm in a rush and there's a traffic warden coming. So he goes Alright then. And he sells me this fucking massive two two air rifle which you've seen haven't you? Yeah. around your room. The only problem with it it's lost a lot of power. Hello Francis. Hello. Oh very good aye? Ha ha. What is that? Oi oi. What is it doing? I'm doing a badge. What is that project? Project yeah. How much have you done? All that? No I've done a bit more actually Francis. I'm sorry . Oh if that's all you've done Can you like erm fuck off please. Look I've got I've got all this in here though. Look this is what I've done. You've gotta hand it in soon. Gotta hand it in tomorrow. Have you gotta hand it in tomorrow? Christ, how much have you done Danny? You gotta hand finished or not you know. Does. Why not? No it's just that done most of it I haven't done any of it basically. Who's it for? Erm Mr . T. What's Mr ? I call him Mr . He's an arsehole I hate him. He always tries to make it put on these accents. Oh no. That's what been trying to do. He sounds like a such a wanker when he does it though. Yeah he . Mr alright but when he gets in a bad mood . He gave out about fifty million red tickets. You know he looks really evil though. Who? That kid. Well he is. I know. No the that kid looks evil. Well he is. He is evil when you say it like that. It's cool the judge though goes, It's burn them pure violence in them there's nothing nothing to explain it. they did give a reason. They didn't really have a real reason. Yeah he didn't They just felt like going out and killing a little pillock. I know it's so stupid Someone said someone said they saw So I was we saw that. And they reckon that the little kid looked like something to do with that cos of but he denies that they saw it. . Yeah so it'd be the same . Oh yeah does the little kid get smashed by a train? They they put him on the rail they tied him to the railway track so he'd get run over by a train but I don't think he did. It's not funny. It's bloody disgusting. latterly the judge said, It's barbaric and something They beat they beat him to death. railway lines. Just seems so unrealistic though a kid would actually do that. Unless He was ten years old. Ten year old. Get a railway Just like someone So stupid I can't believe that. The thing is I can't believe how stupid they were. They took him to a shop and But that's impossible cos the little kid that they bullied didn't even look like Trucky. Yeah but you could think they were brother and you know. So that could be their alibi. Well they said the witnesses said they thought it was just like an older brother a younger brother. It was it stuck he got killed in February. It's a long time ago but you know the trial's only just finished . I'm glad I'm glad he's gone What? innocent. Not really. They're being detained for a long time. ages ago. Trebor mints are a little bit stronger . You've got I think the top one's . No it's the bottom . Let's have a look. Can I have a look at their photos. He looks like Alex. Alex. The bottom one's got eyes of the devil. Yeah he's got weird eyes. The top one looks a bit bad as well. Well they must be at that age. I mean they He grabbed his chest. It's like this guilt oh No I think it was Oh like this Oh cool. The top one doesn't look so evil. The bottom one does. The bottom one look vicious. The bottom one though the way he smiles and his eyes. the bottom he was was lead by the old top one apparently more. The bot top one the bottom one was shy and quiet. So he's it's often people that seem really quiet that isn't it? Probably Thing is it's It's bad. things that children are innocent at that age. There's nobody you know in here it's not really often that a No no the youngest history or something . The thing is at that age they often don't get severe punishment cos they'll got to either a special place Yeah they'll they'll be taken away from their parents and put into a juvenile There was there was a case of one girl who back in nineteen sixty eight she killed two boys when she was eleven. And she got out after ten years. Whereas whereas if you did that to a grown up you'd probably be in there for about thirty years or something. If it was in America you'd be chaired. It depends where you were not every State does. But if you'd been in trial in America I reckon that in England what they do to children in America we we should have a capital punishment actually as that that would erm You reckon that we should? Yeah. Yeah definitely. As that that would make all all a lot of crimes stop. It would. The same if you were thinking of murdering this person and you knew that you could be traced you'd bloody think twice if you were gonna be hanged or chaired. No but what they do in America because I don't think you can be gassed unless you're grown up They can't gas you no. They can't gas you they can't chair you they can keep you away from your parents for the rest of your life. And they can keep you in a home children's home. They'd probably keep you away from life in America. What they'd probably do to them punish more severely in America. In America they would keep them in a home until they were old enough to go into a jail Then they go to jail. What? Everyone was allowed to carry a gun. That's stupid. That is cool. Why? Freeze He says he says that it's gonna stop crime so much cos if everyone can have a gun. Stop that. But the best thing in this country's that walking around Frank? If I had a gun here yeah and I knew and you were coming at me like with a club and I shouted, Stop. And you carried on and I shot you dead I'd get away with that. Yeah cos it would be called defence. I told you to stop and you didn't Yes there are you can get away with it if the other person there's sufficient evidence that the other person was determined to kill you. You know yes if someone's yeah that prob you probably would get away with that actually because You would. What if you didn't have enough evidence to prove it? Well you shove it up your bum don't you? You have to have evidence Yeah well if I had like a little dictaphone on or something like that But in some no in some States you get the electric chair and some States in America you're gassed. I reckon the gas is cool. You get a nerve gas and you get all like sheered up and then you No but there are States in America where you don't get killed at all. So if you escaped from State would you would you be taken back to your home State or something? What's the worse thing? They do the electric chair and the gas things don't they? Yep. But they don't do hanging or anything. Don't they? Thing is they don't they don't do that to young children. It's against the law. Well it should be so bad The thing is they're still young and I suppose it's possible that they could be taught their minds are still impressionable. I don't they'll ever be normal. They can't be normal to do something that. Yeah I know they must be they must have been provoked or There's something wrong with them I think. told. They're not normal. It would be really cool if we could like get the erm catapults. I know some brilliant places. If we but a shop won't sell us that. Why not? It's all the same to the shops. Honestly the only bad thing that I've ever got from a shop is a porno video. They sold it to me. And they sold me The Last Boy Scout. I got The Last Boy Scout. Aye? I got The Last Boy Scout. It's a cool film. It's really old now. Yeah. It's still good. What the hell's this? It's a gun pull it at the bad guys and shoot. Oh I haven't been to the cinema for ages it seems. What was the last thing you saw in the cinema? Mm let me think. Jurassic Park. I saw Jurassic Park and then I saw Mario Brothers. Er Mario Brothers they're crap. I know. I wish had turned into the dinosaur bit. It's so sad the fact that the turned into slime I wish it would carry into . And then I saw The Real McCoy that was the last one I think. We used to watch that on T V. Yes so did I. Such a stupid name though for the film. Weighs a ton doesn't it. Yeah. It's pretty sturdy though. Yeah I know. Oh so do English. I'm not too worried about the exams. Yeah I wanna keep in my sets. I don't wanna be moved down. I wanna be moved up for one that's science. No I doubt you will. I might be. Only thing I'd like to move up in. I like my French shit even though it's the bottom set. You learn a lot. It's a lot easier. You don't like . We learn quite a lot with Mr Draper. He teaches set one as well. Mm. You have Mr Draper? Yeah. He's alright. He's meant to be a bit of a dick sometimes. Yeah he tries to make up crap jokes. He thinks he's really cool. Who's that stupid woman with blond hair she's a right git. Oh Mrs . No not no 's quite old isn't she? no way. She's quite young blond hair? She's about the same, what the one with all like big spots on her face? Yeah. That's . She's about as old as . Cos . Have you ever seen her in their erm swimming costume. Who? Miss . Who's Miss . Don't you know her? She teaches P E. Oh yeah. . She's got nice tits. Yeah iron tits. That's what we remember on the first day we called her in chapel. When she was in chapel. You were bastards. I was like she was sitting next to me and you were like all trying to move me up and think I know. shit. Gosh she's got massive tits though hasn't she. Iron tits . Look it's like a magnet for your knob. What about Mr . Bet he goes and tries to get all the young girls. No I know but definitely sure that Miss definite fart one of the upper sixth. I'm sure of it. Every time I almost see her she's with this same guy. Wouldn't mind being in that upper sixth. Me neither. Lay her any day. But she's a fucking cow the other one Miss . I know she's a bitch bitch. Trebor mints We had her at French today. And just cos we couldn't do some questions on the paper she says, Oh you're not good enough then you should've learnt it better. Sort of having a go at us. Well not me and he doesn't even know English he has to he's bloody dum. He's a bender. Hong Kong and he's gay bent bastard. isn't from Hong Kong. Oh he's from erm Tokyo or wherever I don't know. He's not from Japan he's from Thailand Thailand yeah. bastard. That's what always says I really hate that. I hate he's such a knob. Such a bender. He's a dick. D'ya know would you believe that she's only been laid twice. No she hasn't been laid. She has. No she hasn't. Rachel has been laid twice. Who by? Er I don't know who by as Giles won't tell me but he definitely knows the two people that've laid her. Oh aren't they lucky gits. And I think that I'm not being funny but I think that Jim did one. But Jim definitely been laid I know that. It wasn't Jim . I know but he's Jim . Erm Rachel live opposite. Mm. So? So if that was Jim cos Jim would've been in his he hasn't laid But it's really cool if you get into the upper sixth and you go into the erm you get a study near the book room you know round the back. They're massive you can fit a double bed in. I know. That's what Giles had. What do M and M sponsor? Yeah biggest ever bag but doesn't mean the contents Yeah I know look. They pump it up so you can't look. All you get is this much here. It's the biggest ever bag alright ? The biggest ever bag to celebrate the world cup. Everyone says it's the world cup. It's really in line. What do these celebrate? Three two for the price of one. That's pretty good actually. crap. is excellent. Yeah I know. Have you ever been? Yeah. It's excellent fun. I went for the day and I saw Christopher Reed superman. And I shot We were all wonder cos we saw him there cos it was pretty pretty good place I've been banned from my local club. Cos I went up and this bloke was like he was like every time. He was only about two meters away from me and he was like shooting me in the back. I got all these massive bruises. So I walked up to him and I was about this far away yeah? And I just went right in his bollocks. I I would climb a tree where And he was like going There was a tree house there and nobody knew about it so I climbed up there and I'd shoot everyone from the roof you know. I was hitting them on the head and they were all falling on the floor. It was and they say go and we always run out and hide a find some decent position. My dad's friend though okay cos we were in the back of this car when we were shooting at the enemy okay? And he came running out behind us and at the back this massive puzzle and he slipped over in the mud sli slide straight forward and into the . Straight into it. Head first and it was so funny. Oi nutter ee you nutter oi time up there. Nutter. Look No look Battery power. What's that for? Battery power. That's pretty pretty powerful you got batteries. Yeah. That's excellent when you can have battery power. That's cool. That's cool. I wish I'd keep the walkman that would be so wicked. Yeah I'd love to keep walkman. I think walkman's cool. Cos all I'd have to buy is a starter microphone then I've got an instant dictaphone. Yeah you may be able to keep the microphone as well. I'll ask. Plus the tape plus the batteries extra favour. That would be Everyone hates . Everyone hates . Who does yeah I know. I was gonna say who doesn't. You can't blame them. I reckon Kiplin . There was meant to be loads of us and now we've ended up with none. Andrew was meant to come into Kiplin. I know if we had them it would be so wicked. Yeah we did we wouldn't've had as well. That would be Yeah wouldn't have come in would he? That would be wicked. Without it's have to be pretty decent. I know 's a loser. isn't bad sometimes. A bit. Why don't we turn the lights in here and close all the windows cos of poison. Stop recording this it's extremely gay. No. See what you've done. Why d'ya masking tape it? So it stays on. the microphone. I know. That's the recording thing. I'll cover that up now. What d'ya thing secret mission is to do? To become a decent flabbergasted. D'ya want a game of table tennis? No I've gotta do this. Oh you've gotta hand it in tomorrow haven't you? Yeah. So if you're free over the weekend you can come round yeah? Yeah. I'll ask my parents tomorrow If you want to sleep the night then that's alright. Yeah. Bring my stuff. I'll ask my parent tonight. I don't think I'm doing anything over the weekend. Shall we go to France? No. cool to go to France. French are arseholes anyhow. Telling me. Yeah I am telling you. They're benders alright. We went in this shop and there were all these pictures of man men all naked men all over it. Oh. And we went to the one next to it and it had all naked women in it. Oh we were look through all the magazines and they got really stressed out and told us to get out. They show everything though there. Can they? Bloody hell. I love French beaches. Yeah telling me. Yeah I'm fucking telling you . Spanish beaches are excellent. Oh god you get all the women in I know. These young teenagers all millions of them all in this group that came down and took their bras and oh Very good. And there's a nudist beach in South America. Oh you have to be nude. Well you don't have to most people are though. We can go in your roof and shoot some cars. No we'll shoot some of the shoot the bastard next door. Guess what they did. They sprayed cold water on my dog when it was snowing and all her fur froze. So guess what I did? What? I got snowballs throw it on him. But I made the snowball into ice first. Yeah that's the best way cos it really hurts. did this snowman snowman which I've done. Cos everyone's Yeah. I made a snowman. Everyone was bashing my snowman so I froze it. No it. Froze it. The best best snowman that I've ever made was I got this massive rock yeah and I put all snow round it. And these guys came up and go oi you're not allowed to build that there. And I said well up yours mate cos I am. And he went to kick it and he just went crack. Yeah that's what. Oh. Oh yeah. That's how I build sand castles you put rocks in them and That's what I do. Okay wait wait. Cos in the nobody really likes you know snow snowmen and things like that. Okay? So we built this snowman round this rock and this car came back cos he came he just came in to hit it and he burst into and broke his bumper . This massive dent in his bumper and he drove round. Cos they did it to me before. I made another one in the park earlier. And they just drove in knocked it over and ran out. So I put it in a rock this time and it was so funny though. Cos I I leg I quickly legged it. But some drivers are such gullible dicks. I know. But anything on the side would perhaps break it. The funnies thing one's gotta be when my friend yeah? I lent him my air rifle and aimed it out the window and there was this car going by and he went and he smashed the back windscreen I was saying, You fucking dick. And so I tell you we slammed the window down and just ducked for about an hour. And this police car came and and my dad says, Was that you that fired the gun out of the window? And I went, No no no. The best one my friend's got this gun, his name's James, it's about that big yeah? And it's a erm automatic like machine gun see and erm he's got this magazine. He's got about twenty of them. They've to four hundred shots in them and I bet you any money you like that is true. I know and you can take loads of And he clips them in and he goes all over the cars. It's so funny. Yeah he can get all these little chips in the cars. It's so funny. I did that with my big old . But it's really cool. Cos if you just keep your finger on the trigger they just go Gas tanks are so expensive though for automatic guns. Gotta refill it constantly. What do the gas tanks do? They pump air in so when you fire it it goes a lot faster. It goes really really fast. Really cool. Are they worth it? Yeah definitely. Easily it's so fucking . Why d'ya take so long in I can't be prepared to do all that? Oh I never win the prize but I just Do it for fun. wanna make a good effort so I might get you know take it. Yeah we got if anybody got Don't open them please. I'm not going to. If anybody got over twenty seven with us they got the yellow ticket. What's it out of? Thirty. Over twenty seven that's not bad. Er oh yeah. But some people got twenty six and they got yellow tickets as well. Well I got twenty three and I got a yellow ticket. Twenty three? Yep. really? Yeah I did. I'll get one. It depends if you've finished . I didn't finish mine as well. I reckon the biggest dick in Kiplin that can't say shit it Reg. Reg? Yeah he can't say shit. Cos er erm remember that time when I called him fadge and I pegged it and he he went . I was gonna trip him up. And then I started running. I should've. oi fadge and you pegged it after me . The best thing get your flat hand and whack it on his back really hard. Does he hate that? Yeah. You know especially when he's not . A massive bruise that. Red on a nigger. Oh yeah that'll be the day . loser on this. Do on then. I reckon 's got no cock. 's dick that's gone. 's a sad faggot. Have you?is a loser. This pen doesn't show up too well. Dickless erm Prick. and a sad faggit . Faggot. Faggot. Now what we need is a really big black pen and make a line and put rare at the top . Don't put that. I know. I wonder what that means. I just about to Have you seen up there. I did this massive erm spit out the window and it suddenly exploded like that. Mind it's no way get back in and save it up. Oh shit. I know I know. See if I can get it in. Get it across chuck it across. That's what I mean. Yeah it did it again. Did you see that explode all this phlegm. Yeah it's cool. .Chris Box has got no balls. Chris Box Chris Box D'ya like Chris Box? No he's a loser. I know. Seems a nice I know that's a man. Yeah It's a boyfriend. Thinks he's . is a loser. The only like him cos he has fag with them. No gets he supplies them. Exactly. If he didn't supply the fags he'd be mateless. Face it if if he didn't have Adam as a friend he'd be definitely mateless. Yeah. Andrew Is a loser. Call him mackerel. Mackerel. Did he hear you? I dunno. Mackerel Is he still there? No. Have you seen Miss . No. Look out the window and tell me what you see. Straight look Knife and fork Knife and fork. Let's chuck something of out the window. Hey shall we lob this into the grass. No it gets it lost. Better lob something that doesn't notice. Wait let me have a look. We used to get Yeah. Chuck this out the window. Come on then. Break it half and half. I'll chuck this half out this side. I'll chuck this half out this side. I chucked it out the window and it landed on the ledge. Chucked yours? Yeah. Can you see it? Yeah it's on the grass. Let's have a look. Oh that's what I was aiming for actually. I missed. I can't believe that I missed. Oi don't crush them. such a fag. Telling me. Don't know why we bother with English. Why do we have exams for subjects which we aren't even setted for? I know. Most of our exams that are coming up are so pointless. Yeah history. At least we don't have an R S exam. We do. No we don't. Well it's such a fag. You're so lucky you get when you get home. I know. We don't get when I go in. I hate . Yeah I hope he heard me. You know never gets up in the mornings? Mhm. Guess who's on first call tomorrow? ? Hate when I get punished. Cos I punished for stupid things . He punished me to do it today but I got up really early anyhow. I can give, well the first call really easy cos I get up early. Shit. What? Got an incubator? No. Oh. Oh done it again. listening to this crap song. What about 's music taste. You know that is just a joke. He has this all this shit music though doesn't he . Can't believe how naff he is. I know. Well what we shall probably do is erm if you like get the bus down to McDonalds and like after that have a look around Wood Green. Yeah I know most of Wood Green. And we could go back up. Or we could go into d'ya know Enfield Town? Yep. Shit. What? I mean we could go back up and go into Ashpoles and then just go down Park with er black widows and just blow the shit out of everything . Shoot the little kids. But we do if I do get the diablo I'll show you you know. It's all unscrewable the whole thing practically. Is it good? Mm. What did he say? Just shout What's Mr like? D'ya like Mr . He's a prick. I've got him for English. I've got him for drama. Have you d'ya do drama? Yeah. It's so shit isn't it? You just read out the crap . We when I when it's our German period we just have music. How come? I dunno. Oh you you only have one a week don't you? Yep. So ever alternate changes. You're lucky. Did you have drama last term half term? No. I mean yes sorry. What did you do? Erm Julius Caesar. In drama? Yeah. It's crap. do that? We did. No we didn't. Oh. crap Julius Caesar? Yeah. Cos we got I know. Have to put all of that. Yeah all of us had to audition. A fag. I bet that No there was only two placed for Cos the middles are meant to be so brilliant. Hitler shot himself we was such a dick. He had so much bloody power and he goes and shoots himself. Who? Hitler. What sort of a prick would do that? I know. I know Hitler hee. I hate spend Now what happens? Should record what happened. It's what? Record what happened. So what do you do, do you have to give them the tapes and shit? Yeah. How many days do have to tape them for? Seven. Seven? Cheers. Do they give you tapes as well? Ten blank ninety minute tapes. They gave me eight eight Yeah. All I know is that I'm not and swear Ow, that wasn't me. Sorry. God, James. Sorry Chris sorry, sorry. Don't you mind? No, cos they don't even know who I am. All they know about me is that I'm number twenty eight. And your address? No, they don't know my address. How do you get it then? Cos erm they gave it to this woman and the woman gave it to me. Twenty P Ten P Twenty. That cost you twenty P? How much that cost you? Ten P buy? You were ripped off man. It was, it was that size Yeah. started it. I owe ten P. I got two for twenty P. bitch you know they were really small so there were twenty. Do you wanna sell one? No What do you call yours? Ring Pops. Let's go. I have to go, hang on I'm interested in this. rip off me chewing them. So wh why are they doing this, this survey I dunno, they just wanna everything my voice. They want erm English thirteen year-olds why they chose me I shall never know. Really? When's your birthday? June the 8th. June the 8th? Yeah. Man, mine's June the 6th. Mhm. About middle-aged. No, fairly young. There's a lot of people in August. Is there? And September. born in April, May or May is the best one. Yeah,th there's a lot in that May there's a lot in our Are you Gemini? Well if I'm two days away from your, what do you think? Well, my dad, my dad's erm Gemini and Taurus cos he was born exactly on the night like he was born midnight basically Yeah. and When it changed. It's like well as it changed he like was like delivered on the change. So he's Gemini and Taurus. That's pretty cool actually. oh, there's a little microphone. Which does he call himself? Huh? Which does he call himself? He doesn't really give a toss. No it's not really actually. Mm? Is that a Yes. Oh my God oh, oh you You know what it is? What, maybe a recorder what are you like A microphone, microphone. What are you like does it improve your hearing. Hello. Speaking to the Mike, yeah. It's said, it's piece of shit you Norwegian twats. Whoops. It's not recording is i? Yeah. So you recorded swearing saying hear it. Can you play it back? No not now, have to wait till the tape ends. Why? Cos it'll fuck it up. Yeah, that's cool. look you can even get the battery power. You've got some dodgy things, dodgy sounding things on there. Funny. You're calling yourself slash. Did you? I have. You still got it on you? Twice Let's see some of your porn moves What? Let's see some of your porn moves. Streetfighter Two. I talk, come on do it into that. I'm talking. No, come on you've gotta do all of it. Just do them, no- one's gonna hear it you twat. What? Just do it. Oh, you're said. Speak into that, say something rude. It's me. Oi, punish to say Sha Yu Ken this is a streetfighter game sound) Oh yeah,Sha Yu Ken Sha Yu Ken Sonic Boom. can do that Er yeah can you what what's what's the one that he does with the hundred hands up?ha, ha, ha, ha, ha No he just goes ha, ha, ha, ha, ha. Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha. Do the spinning kick one, you know the bloke where he jumps up and does the spinning kick. Sing it, just to Blanca when he goes ooh, ooh, ooh go on. I don't know that one. Oh, you do, you're so bullshit, just to the real ones whatever they are. Oh they get all the I'm talking, I'm talking, talking. See I did it. it's me just do it, I just did it. Do the long one as well. All of them. Sonic boom. Don't stare at me. what's the one for it. What's them voices in? In Bison? Yeah. I don't know. He doesn't. He does, he does. That Vega bloke and he jumps up and things. Yeah, comes up and this bloody Always gets It's a woman, I'm telling you that is a woman. He's not. It is a woman. He's a bender. says Wait, wait, I'm trying to look. Listen to my tape. Where's Would like to listen to another one of his tapes? They're crap, apart from one which is Just do, just do They're what, one of them. This one's pretty c crap. All of them are shit and rubbish recording. Yeah. Don't mind. What I'll just get on with my jibe and hope for the best. I can't be fucked. What you doing? Project. Project? I'm doing a project as well. Projects? A project isn't a project Say rough. Rough. Have you got a bit of a lisp? a wisp? I dunno I never used to, it's just erm some words I say. You can't pronounce your No it's not that bad, but it's Rough I never used to. Oh. It's like on things like Warren. Say Warren properly. He goes Wawen And Darren. Dawen and Wawen Wodgers Well apart from Wawen Wodgers I say Darren can't say Warren. he's gotta lisp. Darren? Who? He's a dick. I can't think who who she is but er I'm sure that was the prize. About five pounds and a silver tray. Now it's thousands they get. Well yeah but I suppose that five pounds in those days was a lot four noughts on the end of it isn't it? Yeah I presume we're talking about Wimbledon prize money? Well these er big sports people Oh blimey yes. blimey they get Yeah well people like But this girl was talking this is a few years back now. So I think when they started getting all this Can't think of, can't think of who you mean actually. Oh, just an ordinary name she had. it was Mary somebody. But she was rather a big girl. I know the one you mean. I dunno about Mary. I know the one you mean. Quite tall about five foot eight or something like that. Nice sort of roundish face and erm You're talking about an English lady now are you? Yeah. A British girl? Yes yes. She's married and she's got children and she, she's tall and she got married now, yes. She was talking some years back now about the prize that she got when she Yeah. Wimbledon championship. I think it was about five pounds and a silver tray. Yes cos in those days you see if you remember they were all erm amateurs that played. It wasn't All amateurs Yes. It wasn't until erm oh I don't know what year it was when it was open compete and everybody including professionals erm yes. Cos now they're nearly all professionals aren't they? Oh yes indeed. Mm. Nearly all of them. But it's ridiculous the money that they earn. You don't want er clubs getting into debt. Oh do you really think any footballer's worth all that? Yeah evidently it looks as though Gazza's thing's off now. Yeah he's gone. No. No it's all, it's all fallen through it seems. Again? Yeah they've got somebody else. Erm Gazza's fallen off. First of all of course it was all off when he did that. Well according to the er Express I just had a look at, they reckon it's on but for about half the original sum. Oh. No it Subject to All Gascoigne's multi million pound move to Lazio now looks dead and buried. The Italian club have bid for Darco Pansere the red star striker whose penalty won his side the European Cup in Bari on Wednesday. And he will cost Lazio just four million. They have moved for him because they can no longer wait for Gascoigne who will not play again this year. Lazio want a big new name for next season. And although Nat Solomon, Tottenham's financial expert mm wait a minute was here in Rome yesterday attempting to save the Gazza deal I understand it is off. The news will throw Tottenham's future to fresh confusion and leave the club hoping desperately that manager Terry Venables can put together a deal to save them from collapse. Gascoigne was to have gone to Lazio at the end of July for the club to monitor his rehabilitation after the knee ligament operation that threatened his career. That now will not happen. And Tottenham's clever campaign to save the club is now down to one man Venables and his business expertise. In Rome yesterday it was evident that the Gazza deal was doomed because Juventus who were to provide half the four million that was to have been Lazio's down payment had gone cold on the deal. Well once you've done that it's like twisting your ankle. It's always weaker. Yeah. There's always that that erm fear. He looks a very strong sort of person but he walks By the way Sid would you know how to put a new lamp, light bulb thing in a fridge? What the light in the fridge? Yeah. I can't see in that bloody fridge for love nor money. For one thing the lamp, the light's gone and Tony got me a new one but it wasn't You mean you can't see it to put round the corner here like this? Yes. Yeah they do go off. Can't see how to put it in. Oh. Er well offhand I don't actually know but I'll, I'll get me glasses I'll have to Have you got your glasses? I haven't no, I never bring them with me of course. Let's have a look come on. I don't know erm. It's probably just a case of a couple of screws to take the cover off. Oh is that what you have to do? Probably. I don't know. I do not know. Can you see the bulb? Well no I can't actually ours is this side isn't it? Mm. I should imagine it would be in here somewhere. It's got to be. Oh look here it is it's here. There's the bulb here. Yeah. bayonet fitting or a screw fitting. There's a screw here Sid, just one screw. Is there? Yeah one screw. Well I'll call, I'll call down tomorrow mum. Do you need a screwdriver? I've got two little screwdrivers yes small screwdrivers. What's happened to that bloody light? They're funny little sausagey ones aren't they? Yes. Here it is. Is that it? Have you got replacement bulb there dear? Mm, looks a bit small dunnit? Oh no. Can I have a look at that? Have you got a screwdriver, small screwdriver? Oh it is a screw fitting. I think it's only a question of taking it out turning it round and screwing it back in again. It's a screw yeah. Let's have a look? It isn't difficult Sid it's just that you seem to, you want a torch that comes this way to see how you Yes. you want, you want a, you want a erm a little mirror. It's like get in like that and er the thing goes in this way. Well you know you can go like that but then once you've got it out you've got to fiddle a bit. It only needs turning. No you push them in don't you to No no no it's a screw fitting. Is it coming out? Is it coming out? Yeah but it's got a cover or something over it. Yeah that's right a mirror and then that's a screwdriver in . There you are Sid. Sid? What's that? There's a mirror. I should have thought it would have been easier than that to put a new one in. Could have done it from the front. There's a bulb. I've got a bulb loose but there's a little There's a screw there I think there's that screw's got to come out obviously, hasn't it? Don't think so. Have you got a light in this? Er, here yeah. Oh thanks. Turn it a bit more upright, there see. Is there one the other side Sid? No. No. Just one. You sure it doesn't just push in and does it come? I would have thought myself that all it needed was going boomph in and turn it and get the other one in. Push it in Sid. No it, it's definitely a screw fitting. You see. You screw it in and out there's no bayonet fitting on it. It's this cover over it. This little wire grill. Wait a minute, hold it. Can't take this erm can't take that front off can we? No you wouldn't get that from there. When it first went off some time ago it wouldn't go but one day I took I took a jelly out in a glass dish and it bonked this thing and the light came on again. And then soon after it went off and it's never come on since. Where d'you put the light on? Does it just erm Well it'd come on automatically hasn't it? Oh automatically. Oh yes the light comes on as you open the door doesn't it? You haven't erm That's the switch, that's the on and off switch. That's, this one shuts it off. You haven't pushed that in have you dear? Yeah. Yes. Yes he has. Oh you've shut off this freezer then. Don't do, this is a freezer Sid, don't How does it come out? It comes out normally on it's own. Oh. Oh you've pushed that in for good now Sid, now the freezer's off. It'll, it'll come off. It'll come out on it's own probably. That's when it works. But I've done it sometimes with a pair of tweezers. I can't see that I only defrosted this oh it was yesterday or the day before. That's very awkward like that.. Oh if you can't manage it Sid don't sort of bear with it. I can't see I need my glasses to see. There's a screw here mum. Oh. At the back which That has to come out. which probably has round the back? Yeah. It's ridiculous place to put it isn't it? No I think it its doesn't go after all that. Mm. How can anybody really pay It looks to me there's that one screw holding it on cos two sides of that, two prongs of that case there are loose and the other one seems to be yes it must be I dunno what this thing's for I'm sure. That's your on off switch, the door catches that, that is for the light. Oh I see. The door shuts it. Is that it? Oh I see. Yeah. This is a this is a switch . The door comes on to that and erm Oh. Well this this of course erm shuts off the freezer that thing. erm See when I went and defrost it I shut that off and er opened this Yeah. and put a bowl of hot water in there and that defrosts it quickly. Yeah. Yes. So how do you come back on again? And get it out in there you see. And how do you switch it back on again? And it comes on again. Well how do you switch it back on again if that switches it off? Well it automatically comes on you see it it's all frozen at the moment it will probably shoot out itself I did try it once to try and pull it out but, I think But this must , is this an on an, an on on switch? I don't know. That looks as if it's the thermostat setting. All you can do, that that is to shut it off. Then it automatically will shoot out again. Oh. Anyway it will probably come on itself anyway, so Are you sure that button will come out on its own? Are you sure that button will come out on its own? Yes it does Sheila mm. Mm. Put that bulb back wherever you got it from. Well I'll put that with it then. Put that with it eh and then he'll I need my glasses. By the looks of it it is that as I say a screw's keeping that thing on. Can't you see to undo the screw? No. Well what about me doing it? Don't worry about the screw. It is a bit difficult it's like it's almost you want you want to get inside it at the back of it don't you? Now put that on there so that it's with the rest of it. How's you, alright? Knackered. Oh. Bad as that is it? Why are you working hard? Look Ralph erm if, if you don't mind me saying can you remember if you do this could you just give me a ring and say it's done, if not Sid come down in the morning. Alright? I mean you got to get yourself in there round the back tuck yourself in all your body. Cos we got to erm, you got a magazine He can see in the fridge but I can't, I can't. You know but I mean when it comes to a screw and your, I mean we're talking about coming like this to undo the screw. Yeah round the back. You, you need somebody really to hold the erm The mirror. a mirror in the way, but you can't have your arms in it. Perhaps you could prop up this little hand mirror that I've got in there. Oh I'll do it don't Well make sure your little knob pops out won't you? No there's a little, there's a little guard over the bulb you see. And it looks as if there's a screw you have to undo to get it off. Otherwise the, the little bulb is just a screw in affair. Yeah but did you try and undo the screw to get the bu , the whatsit off? No no I can't see to undo the screw can I? I mean if I put my best, give you my best glasses you'll widen them won't you? Yeah, never mind. Bit of a laugh last night. Phones gone and it's erm Mr . So er security people are in the area trying to stop all these burglaries. I said well don't worry about it I said I locked all off from under my windows I says. And I'm about six foot four and I'll handle anyone that breaks in here. Oh that's alright then he says. What, where you are, round there? No here. Oh here. Really? yeah. Oh. burglary in the area. I mean when they they decorated all the outside, they put these locks on the windows, this one here. Oh. That one in the hall and the one in the kitchen. Mm. And er I just said we've all got security locks as they call them. locks. What about erm what about anything outside the french windows? Can they do anything there? No but that's faulty at the bottom and the key They can smash them, that's all. Mm. Always bash through the window and walk in couldn't they? Well They just don't like breaking glass do they? They're not Well actually on the television I don't know whether you've noticed when they start talking about burglaries and things like that the picture that comes on is Newlands Park you know. At the moment this is a dreadful area. I mean there's been one or two incidents just lately Mm. that are mind boggling really. Yes. About a boy going in and asking But then if he could borrow a screwdriver on the end of our little shops there. Yes. And then he goes, then the bloke, the, give him, he said I'll, I'll you know I'll bring it back. And it's a family that's well known as a bit you know Geordies and that and a couple of rottweilers. He goes a little bit further down the road. There's a nurse is in bed and the next thing the nurse wakes up to find him at the bottom of the bed. Mm. He's got in trying to do a little bit of burglary you see. Yes. You know just creeping in to pick what he can handbags and things up like that. Never go to work these kids though. No, no. Oh they're up to all bloody tricks I wish I had a truncheon I'd love to bash one round the head. I mean you can see that bloke stopping cos he saw this poor girl lying in the road. Looked as though she was bleeding. He Tomato ketchup. he'd gone out to help her. The next minute three blokes come from nowhere and bash him up take his money and drive off in his car and take the girl. She gets up off the ground. She's helping out. Little bit of tomato ketchup I suppose. Dear oh dear oh dear what what think of. Yeah but you see you, you, you really do not think that somebody is going to do that. I mean if you saw a girl laying, alright so you'd have to pick her up, put her in your car and take her to think she's been injured don't you and get out and help. If somebody bonks you on the And it's gonna get worse if this situation of er you know erm jobs and that is gonna go on for another two years. I mean it's gonna get worse. And then er er had another call. Er. We got a geezer come to the door you know yeah, and he took a few particulars you know. Then he went on about erm some hoover, vacuum cleaner or something I dunno. Anyway. And he says keep this card by your telephone he said. We'll ring you. So we got this phone call he said hello Mr I said yes. Have I won a thousand pounds? She said oh no she says your name gone in and you've er won a weekend in Wales I think, oh what a load of old bollocks they're coming out with here. And what was it he said cos I heard him say yes, yes. No he said it's my mother's. And then he said I'm always here and I don't know whether he's supposed to come down or what it is but as I said to him it's a load of codswallop. You might just as well have put the phone down. Well you see It's like when I had a letter Yeah well you see this is how they find out who's in the places. Yes. This is all Yeah, a load of codswallop. Yeah but you don't know whether it's not er people phoning up to find out who's there and whether he's there and all to do with burglaries and things. You don't know they're all Yes, yes. I had a letter. I don't, I can't remember now who it was from but I'd been er picked out and given a valuable prize. And Shirley happened to come the next day and I about it. She said it, tear it up mum she says it's a load of bull that's all that is. I've had one she said and three or four of the girls at the office have had one. She said they've all come to work oh I've won a prize I've got a car or I've won this that and the other. She said it it's a sprat to catch a mackerel. They get you to go in for something and then it costs you money. Of course it does they're not doing that for nothing. If I've had one I've had a dozen. basement doors. . Well, well our postman said he said really. He said he puts more, more he calls in and says it's awful really cos this rubbish and he said whereas I should be able to do say the whatever ten o'clock post in whatsit. I've got to go back and it takes me sometimes twice, sometimes three times when you get all this rubbish that he has to take round. See I mean it's all paper that What's . get sacks and put them all in get them all recycled. He he he must have asked for Mr . Well my name in the directory is just E. They don't know whether No, it's male or female you see. And anyway he's got to pretend that he's the man of the house so in case they think you're on your own. Well he is the man of the house, let's face it. Sort of, sort of is. Cock of the walk. have a chat to him about what you could do I said don't worry I said. All, all my windows have got locks on and I said I'm about six foot four and anyone gets in here I'll kill them. But you see you don't know who they are do you that's saying all this? Course you don't. These people come You mustn't give anything away. all sorts. The times a poor old lady's been raped and robbed in, they've got to inspect all the gas pipes or they've got to inspect something or the other. And the old lady thinks it's all genuine. And what happens Well round near us they terrorized an eighty three year old lady er near us and er it was a, I met the man next door and his wife and they were the ones that got the police because he said they'd got her furniture out on the pavement to to with a doodah up there. Yes. They'd got her absolutely terrified I mean she, she could have dropped dead with sheer terror. Knock at her door you see and in they go. Television, you name it. Yeah. almost had her car pinched now. Who? Paula. Yeah Paula mm. and she had er hand put through the back and er all the glass shattered. Erm and they pinched her bag at the back with all her titbits and that in . And er Paula ran after him, all down an alleyway. I mean she said it's an instant thing when someone's got a handbag you realise afterwards. I mean she'd have been knocked over, I mean I know she's pretty swift. But er she said I suppose when I think about it it was an instant reaction you see. Gerry had seen his face and they got to go and look at the mug shots and all that and er longlegs had been informed across the road because they'd got er a camera that works and er they got in touch with the, they told the police about it and so they're going over there to see if it's been recorded you see. You know like him actually doing it. All the, I think most building societies and that, banks, have an automatic camera going somewhere. They photograph everybody that comes in and out. I mean if you're genuine it just doesn't matter does it? Well like there's a lady coming round tonight Now does that mean she's, she's instead of Thelma? Yes, Thelma's on holiday. Oh. She seemed nice that's she's, that's a different one to one that came yesterday. I suppose they've got two. They been coming round every day just to see you're okey dokey Yes. Oh. Thelma didn't always bother every day because she knows that Ralph is here you see. Yeah. but er the new one she wouldn't know. It's jolly good isn't it really? She just got a, just got a list of erm those I think it's cos of them, well I mean She said, about next door, cos I just said to her it's private it's been bought. And it's only a young couple in there. Which really isn't right cos they weren't meant for young couples. But of course she told me that when they came there they were there to look after the place so that it wasn't taken over, you know by anybody else, but she had a washing machine, the washing machine come in just after. And I should, well it struck me that they were there for good and all. I suppose if it's theirs perhaps they can't do anything about it. What erm, I don't know whether it's theirs but Bab's son David bought it. Yeah. You see David bought it and put these people in there. Funny isn't it really? But they're. Yeah, rent it. I suppose It might be for a certain amount of time while they do so and so and then, what can he do? He can, he can sell it to the council Well he can sell it to erm back to the council. They used to at one, when it was first brought out, you had to sell it back within a number of years. You had to sell it back to the council. Because it was always meant for pensioners you see. Yes. Well he could do that. I mean that would be easy for him. Yes. He really probably shouldn't have anybody in there. Sort of. Mind you, I don't think they're married either of them because she comes under the name Miss and well her name's Estelle and he's Paul, but she's known as because I've had two or three people ask me about her because she, she deals in insurance. And they're away quite a lot. The other day when we had a very hot day, it was quite a hot day and over mid day I went out to do something in the garden there and her milk was still on the step and it was in the sun. And it was absolutely hot. So I moved it to the other side of the step. And later when I saw Paul, I said Paul if you go away for the weekend, if you tell me, I can put your milk in my fridge. And at night time if you're not back I'll, I'll leave it in your cupboard, you'll know where it is. Oh he said that's very kind of you, that's very nice. Only I said it's an open invitation when it's left on the doorstep you see. Absolutely. And it's all going off isn't it, there's nothing worse than a And the silly part of it is the milkman always puts it that side where you open the door, instead of this side. You can come in and out and kick the damn lot over couldn't you? Oh well. Absolutely, well they haven't got any brains have they? I noticed it yesterday on that side. I thought to myself well why the devil doesn't he put it over the other side. But she always puts her empty bottles that side so I suppose that's why. And they're, they're very nice young couple although I very very seldom see them. Very seldom see them. I did say to him once that er I said if you don't want that ivy I said you chuck it out, chop it down and throw it over my side cos it's my responsibility You are responsible And he said well he don't mind but it's growing, it's grown right along the wall, right under their step. Like that. Over the fence. the lawn. I can remember when you cut that. It's grown all over the garden. Cos they've only got paving, crazy paving. It's gone up the wall over the top It all comes through don't it? I never knew anything could grow that quick. What d'you do? Just cut a bit off and get it whiskers and it's off? Slipping up here. When I first had it Sheila I'm leaving a bit in Christ. Supposing I wanted a bit, do you put it in a thing and get some whiskers and then just plant it later? Yes, just, that's all. All it wants. Only it was very pretty when I first bought it. It was a little variegated ivy and I had it indoors, in the hall. And it began to look very sick and sorry for itself. Was it when you were round the corner? Yeah when I was round forty three . And I took it out in the spring and put it in the garden and then it revived and came on nice. But Bob said to me where I bought it from, he said I don't think it would survive the winter because it comes from the Scilly Isles which is warmer. So I dug it up and brought it indoors again. It was alright for a few weeks and then it began to look very anaemic and sorry for itself. So later on I put it out in the garden again. And it grew and started to thrive. I though oh bugger it I'm not bringing it any more it's getting too big. It's got two chances either it lives or it dies, and it started to grow like mad. Before long I had a bloody You'll having going down the bottom of the road here in a minute. It'll go down the road later on. And er I brought one or two pieces with me and stuck in there. I mean it was only a narrow bit of earth like that. I put erm two or three pieces of aubretia in there. And I stuck this bit of ivy in hoping it would grow over the fence. You, you have a look Sheila over next door. Is it still bolted. Down the bottom. Push the door back hard. Let's have a look. Oh. Push the door back dear. I've got it back. I can't do it. I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna leave my finger in it. Yeah a little bit of oil there you need. made her quite funny. the door is, is. It comes back easy enough. Here let's have a go . No it won't move. Put a hammer on it. If I lean on the door, push me weight on the door. pushed it as far as it will go. Touch of the old oil bit of vaseline or something. No you don't want too much oil in it . Well if Ralph and Sid can't do it Yeah well. You'll have to forego your look at the ivy. You had erm. You had a job to open last night didn't you Ralph? Or close it? Yeah. Don't try it yet mother. Leave it mother, leave it. If you caught your skin in there Mother . You'll break your back. Ralph and I can't do it so you bloody can't. That's it now put your foot right through the window. Look I just did that. You be careful. Leave it. Come on. Well I, I've always managed to Well your not gonna manage it today. Yeah well we've all, we've all managed it. It's just gone a bit sticky like. You've probably got a bit of damp in there. How we gonna feed the birds? Poor little sods. Through the window, like they normally have it. Have you got a tiny, one drop of oil? One drop, go on Sid'll put one drop on. No? No don't worry I'll, I'll fix it Tiny bit of vaseline oilcan . All it wants is just a slight tap with a hammer. That'll get it back. Yeah. That, that's it isn't it. It always seems you have to bolt the door first before you can turn the key. If you turn the key first it's always a bit difficult to bolt it. Oh. Well that's how I always did it but Ralph usually does it now. But I noticed last night you had a bit of a job to to er poxy carpet Oh I know why . It's got the carpet in it. Yeah, it's all the poxy carpet's in it. There y'are. look. Oh. Oh, there y'are! That's why. And it's no good us having So it's Ralph's fault then after all. We'll see to it later on. poxy carpet all the draught is through the keyhole And the point is . and under the door. And it's no good actually, it's not good pulling it like that and pulling it away because it'll still be there. So some how or other you've got put little bit of oil or something on it. Even a bit of fairy liquid might help. Yes. Yes I suppose it might. No you're probably just need a little whatsname. The only other oil I've got is cooking oil. little hammer. Careful Sheila. That comes out quickly. I'm not even gonna squeeze it. Leave it Sheila, I'll do it in a minute. She might have it up there but I've got it up there. Here y'are. Only, that takes a touch of the old . Really, remember your age. Mm. Just a minute. Let's get the old doofers there. Draughts we've got running through the doors, through the keyholes I don't like getting rid of that that thin carpet right underneath. That belonged to, my mother made that. Yes. Get big one underneath. Yes. Oh dear. There's no wearing those old, homemade ones out is there? They last a lifetime. Oh you're telling me. She made that before the war. Well, we've got a couple that we made in the fifties. That pinky, one with a bit of pink and the beige and the, whatever, good lord that's the first thing we made. Did you ? Did you, Sheila. Did you fancy a piece of that ivy then? Oh yes I'll have a bit of the ivy. I'll have it to, Mm? What do I do with it first of all? Put it in get whiskers? erm. I just stuck it in the ground I think. Oh. Oh. Oh yeah. during the day. I want a nice shiny bit. You know what I mean? Yes. he said what's happened, I said oh well, well I've been . He started moaning load of old balls. Load of balls yeah. Anyway And that's a security firm you say is it, eh? Yeah this is a security firm. Yeah. I said don't worry about it. All my windows have got locks on I said. I'm about six foot four. And I can handle any bastard gets in here. . Oh alright then he says. Did you remember to pay the butcher for those sausages you had last week? Oh yeah, yeah. I paid him in the end, yeah. What about this? This little dark bit here look, like this. That's a nice fresh bit look. four cans. Why d'you want four, why can't you have like two today two tomorrow. No. Yeah. rooting powder. some indoors. No, no I've No we've got some in the shed. I think I might have. And keep it moist, keep it watered. Before you know where you are look. I've been here nine years in August and I've cut no end of it down. Well I suppose these roots will start. What do I do, shall I take those bits off there? Take the bottom roots off I should say. Take the few bottom roots off right , bottom leaves. down by the erm, down by the shed. pot it in once I've got me boots. Well when you've got a fence or a shed or a garage to cover up. Mm. You put it straight in, don't you? You don't wait to grow roots. No it's got to get whiskers. Oh we've got to get whiskers first. got to get the whiskers first. No, I just put it straight in the ground. Oh. And keep it wet. Put it, dip it in the Bit of rooting powder. rooting powder. And keep it moist. Well if that's all I do, I shall be handing it out this time next year. Well yes. No only they look so nice and shiny and Yes it is shiny. Yes. But when I first bought it, they were all tiny leaves and all variegated. But as they get older they get bigger and shinier. They were all like that you know. I'll have to try and think of something that I can erm to get it to go up. You know I mean I'll have to find something like a It's, it's not. It's not an ivy that clings to the wall. Oh. You know some ivies grow right in the bricks don't they but they don't. That one doesn't. It's all er . Well I'll just see how it goes then. It crept through the partitions in the fence. It's over the fence. It's crept through the posts and the fence. It's remarkable where it does go to really. But to cover up anywhere a bit ugly, bare looking it's very handy. Mm. Right, well. O K then. I'll call in tomorrow then mum anyway. O K love. Alright. Yeah. Bye bye then. Ta ta Sheila. Yeah see you. Thank you. I really want little tacky things don't I? Little, don't know what I do want really but What for? Well up the fence there by the side . It can't, it can't erm Well I should put a small stake or something in. I just wondered if they got any You know a small stake, stick or of some sort. No I meant when it goes up you need little things now and again. I don't know what they're called you know. into the fence. I tell you what I think sometimes you probably pick up your ashtray the doors open it was warm. I think you get hold of your ashtray probably, you might have a cigarette in the other hand or No I don't. What I usu , what I usually do is turn the always when I get up like when Nick and I saw the, we saw the film He'd gone up hadn't he? He'd just gone up and I just I usually get up and turn the fire off and then the television. But I must have er forgot to turn that bloody television off. Yeah but it was all on you see. I went up to the get the paper this morning. The er bloke in there said did I know who owned the I noticed there was this little long haired sort of black and white or grey dog that was er tethered to a oh a lamp post or something outside. Outside where? Outside the er newsagents. And apparently erm the bloke had gone up to get his paper, tethered the dog outside and then walked off and forgotten the poor little thing. Oh dear. What happened? So he said Did he come back for it? Well I presume so because it wasn't there when I came out. But he said he thought it was an Irish fellow you know and I said well where does he live? He said well I don't really know but I know he lives local somewhere. How are we going? Eh? How are we going? Alright. Yeah? Everything under control? Eh? Everything under con under control? You know me Sid. I know . Get her down. Get her down. You're a bit light on the chicken aren't you? Cut us out didn't they? What do you mean, cut you out? we ordered it. crossed off. On a Friday! Yep. Ralph? Yes yes yes yes yes yes. little girl No she had it. He gave it to her. Well, he gave it to the dirty little bugger. She had it. I'm smiling. put their own No it's funny she mum? Yeah. Are you er? Yes. going home. Well come on then it's five to. It'll take me Oh blimey. I'm sorry. Ten minutes. but I looked at a pineapple and it's from the Philippines. Where did you expect it to come from, bloody Do you think that erm Yeah she is when she's away . I dunno. Mind you he's not as good looking as she is but What is it that fish that you can have for breakfast. Is it kippers? Well what's so wrong with the Philippines, what's, what You never know what they are when Oh don't be ridiculous. You have to have that. You have to have that with gammon steaks don't you? Yeah more or less. I'll throw the rest away. We'll have a little bit . It's only twenty four P. I got erm two chops and a spam to take through. Okay, give us it then. What this spam? So hello. oh poor child. He's wide awake. I said the poor child. Had little, has little ducky dropped out and it's all bitted and lumpy. Hour over her feed she is that little baby. Really? She's as good as gold. What is this you've got? What are you having tonight? Couple of Bit of this and a bit of that. What is it? Oh pineapple. Yeah, and a bit of spam. And a bit of spam chucked in, ugh. What a choice! Just gonna get my dog. Aint you got a basket? Believe it or not, no. . I'll do the money and there's one forty, twenty four, one sixty, that'll be about two quid and over. Erm Really? Oh we did so much work yesterday Sid. And we worked like Trojans this morning. That's two days now. And he said look good isn't it I said yes . Yeah. He said it had just,. And by the way, I'm coming in Monday because I come on a Thursday normally Oh that's not bad. cos Sue have jet lag Oh yes yes yes yes yes. you see, so it might be worked just better that way he said, so let Sue have the Monday off. They're not expecting her in on Monday then? Well he didn't know whether she was gonna come in or not you see. When she getting home? Er, Sunday morning at six o'clock. Sunday morning! Should be no problem. She'll have all day Sunday but then she could have Monday as well so I don't mind having Thursday off. Yeah. Okay. Did he tell you then, Dave? Well I said to him I said tickets Yeah, yeah. Bloody financial . Yes. Silly isn't it? Think about it driving thirty hours . Say well we're not doing the trade you know and Liz was saying to me I've been doing fair bit more than a lot of them because they Yeah. But Liz was saying to me erm, I was there just before the , about now where's the letter? What letter, she didn't know what letter Chip was referring to. He said what letter? She said you've got a letter. He said I don't know She said come on Chip you've got a letter she said. I know all about it don't worry. Oh she said well it's no good me telling you then. She said well you didn't tell me in any case did you? It, cos the erm cashiers in, desk cashiers . Yeah. And they totalled the produce, putting all the produce down. Where others don't bother. .old bloody tin thing car. He's the second hand bloke she bought . Rag and bone merchant you know? . You alright there? Yeah. looked up that word. Which word? Delicious. No, most delicious. Oh yes. Loveliest. I don't believe it. Oh it was an anagram of that Yummiest. Oh it would be wouldn't it? Yes. Course, you know also Yeah. well we couldn't the er I don't know what the one was across. It wasn't lumber or it was a funny name, backscratch or something, a dance. A Brazilian dance. Oh that's in, that's in the Mirror isn't it? Oh I don't know. And it's like we said. Cos they got it wrong. Because the word down the fish was the salmon. Was it salmon? And the one across was monopoly there's no way it can fit is there? So they're wrong. That's all it is, ask, look. No, the one with the fish was in the Mirror. Oh what was the Sun one? Yeah, no, we did two wasn't there? The yummiest was in the, is in the Sun. But the salmon and the monopoly was in the Mirror. It was the samba was it? It was, samba? Salmon for the fish. Oh so they'd made a mistake. Yes. That's what I've just said. So in other words their monopoly begins with an N. Morning Dave. Where is she? Out the back there mate. Is she, oh right. How are you? Okay. today or this afternoon? No. There's erm there's the question of erm they said highlights, football, now what that is I don't know. No I don't think so . I can take these through here if I get a as well? You can, you can yes. Give me one of those darling. Whisky'll be free with those. Oh well. If that's the case Two packets please. Can we borrow your pen please? Twenty pounds and four pennies please. Are you sure? Beg your pardon? Oh. I've only got ten left. Oh dear, and it's early Saturday yet. Yeah. Oh, you'll never get through the week then with ten pounds. I would if I don't spend any. yes. Do you want all those together? No And four you say? That will do lovely. One penny, and one receipt. Jolly good. People came in this morning about nine o'clock wanting Who did? People coming in asking me What time was today? Didn't come in till about elevenish. Oh god, really? Bloody terrible. You know you've got . I do Sid I say to . It's empty it was out there this morning. I get embarrassed when I'm out there Yeah. It was empty in that respect yesterday. Yeah. I get embarrassed when I'm putting out there because so many people keep asking me how long and how many more times do you have to keep saying we're waiting for the lorry to turn up. I know it wasn't his fault with lamb yesterday cos he didn't get his quota on. All he said was something about the chicken. Chicken. That's right yeah. I think the chicken was about the same I wouldn't run a business like it I tell you that much. We talked about it this morning and he kept saying where's kidney and I said we haven't got any waiting for it to come in. I said but I wouldn't run a business like this, and he said no I shouldn't think you would. I said to him about holding back not giving us our quota I said they can see we're not doing now.. Yeah what do you think of her? show together . Show? Yeah. What, in the evening? I don't know when Sid, didn't ask. going to a show. .I didn't have my breakfast And I said to Abby I'm not going through mortgage when they'll be upstairs all afternoon doing nothing. Every Saturday they sit upstairs and do nothing, don't even . will not put it out unless he's forced to. Like yesterday cos when there's two of them and one of me,says they put it out and look at Yeah. and I was getting ready to hear it. And then he looked, when he put it out he looked over to me and said I could see your face Irene. I said yes Dave. I said if he says one word, I said I'm gonna jump on him. That was Thursday I put it out all I told you didn't I? Yeah. Oh he did didn't he? The second lot . Oh yes he said, that's right. Dave'll put it out, that's how it goes Sid. I said yeah, I said, who did all day yesterday? Oh yeah yeah yeah he goes, like that. Yeah who did it all day yesterday? Didn't lift a finger Dave to put it out. Well I got a cut. I said yes who's got to bloody wrap and weigh it up then? Just because they got a cut they never have to put it out. Yeah. Sue gets cross about that. She leaves her tray. She won't put them out she leaves and walks out. There's a thing, he's got, he's got to do it. Must put it out. So cos I said to Lynn as I said what I'll do, I'll go slow then one of you'll have to put it out cos there'll be so much work to wrap up I should be taking it home with me to do it. Why don't they like putting it out Sid? I don't know. There's nothing to it is there Sid? Not a lot, no. It's easy putting it out. If I had to just put put it out and nothing else I wouldn't mind. You know you used to put it out all the time.. It might be cos they ask where all the stuff is and we haven't got it. Oh god I'm tired. You woke me up this morning I tell you Sid. What time did you get to bed after all? I went, I got up when you left, half past nine. I did the washing up . I settled a few things in the bathroom there and then I had a wash, I've had a wash and did all the about quarter to eleven. Aha. So I've been . happened all this week and last week. Soon as I get into bed I feel wide awake. When you have a wash it wakes you up doesn't it? Yeah it does. And er I'm just laying there thinking of Good morning Gwen, alright. how are you? Hm, hm, down the other end again. . Oh I see, all right. . Yeah, oh I've gotta get, I want some, I want some tea bags. Do what? Some tea bags. Yeah, well don't . . How are you? Lovely.. . Had a really good time out there Did you? Went all over the Great Barrier Reef. Yes, yes. Was it nice? Yes it's nice, like it's winter out there. It is now. And it's seventy degrees out there in the winter, well I was going round in a T-shirt, they all thought I was mad. They think it's cold, but me, it's hot . Yeah, that's right, yeah . Oh she's not staying. Isn't she gonna live out there? No she's not living out there, she's got a visa, she's been out there two years, I dunno how long she's gonna stay there, cos if you want too live out . Well it's difficult to live out there, there strict on it, oh yeah . . But at the moment she likes working out there, she's not permanent. Is her job alright? Oh yeah, she, she . got another job . No,, and there really nice, and Andrew he owns the house and his mum and dad , Chris was , and they put extension, Michael and . . No, no, but. Wouldn't like . Are they ehm, are they actually Australian fellows, that ? Yeah there all Australian, I mean, everybody was the Australian men , but there not, I mean some of them are really nice,. out there? Oh, well, it's a well known,. Well yeah . Is it? , I don't know, is it? Oh yeah, bounties they call them, you know,. I never knew that . But,. Say good morning or during the day. Yeah . Really polite. Go in the water a lot? Yeah, I did, went , I went through the blue , then we flew too Melbourne see eh, one of her friends and stayed with her, like they've got trams there, went too the Great Barrier Reef where the water plane . Yeah, that's right , did you? Did you really? You can go in one of those, you can go in any part , nerve racking really. What is, what do you mean a water break? Well it lands sea plane , sea plane. From the water . A sea plane, oh I see, yes, yes, yeah, well what's wrong with that? Well, bit nerve racking . It was . Was it? Where, went walking on the coral. Yeah. Crushed, crushed a couple of them, what else did we do, went hm. Did you see that big thing. Where? Hello. Hi , morning Dean, yeah. . It's not as big as I thought it would be. No. It's nice yeah, but, I thought it'd be something really fantastic, but, not really. Would you go again? Only if my sister's over there. I mean wouldn't go. I wouldn't go by myself, for like, there's someone else. The only reason I went was because . . In ehm. It's Sidney, do you know they've got a hundred and ten golf courses. I quite believe it. In just Sidney alone. Really? Yeah. Where did your son stay in Sidney? It was outside Sidney. Was he? Somewhere outside Sidney, yeah. Yeah. But Sidney was the nearest town. Yeah. Nice and clean. Yeah, I had a really good time, went everywhere, went too the mountains. Did you? Meet oh went every where. I I thought like pictures of I've got about like , got about three hundred and I've still got five films too develop. Ah it's gonna cost you a fortune. It's all scenery. Yeah of course, that's the idea in it really, lovely. Hm. Did you do a lot of under water swimming? Not really, no, only in Barrier Reef. That's what I mean, that is the isn't it, where they . They take you snorkelling .. Yeah, I am in a way, yeah but, nice down there. Everybody said how quick it'd gone . Oh yeah , hm. It go quick too you? Not really. And there's me saying to Sid that . Oh I had really good time at my sister's She had the whole . Oh yeah, getting and out the plane, oh yeah like , a lot of them . . Oh now we went out like in the night time and. . A couple, your safe on the you'd of liked it there, the hotel was really nice, I've got pictures of it , yeah. See some pictures . Like air conditioning, switch by the telly, everything. , that sounds nice isn't it? It is, the hotel just been done out, with the all winding stair and that. Why aren't you brown? Irene you know me, I never go brown . Yeah, I do know you . I don't. But, you walk out the sun and still don't go brown . Yeah, my sister's got a nice tan . Has she? Ehm, I walked past her twice at the airport. . . Cos she's had her haired permed, she looks really nice. Does it? Yeah. Is it still long? Yeah. Oh, she walked by you too, she did it . I know, hm. Show's you what two years does to you. Two years, I said two, Neill he said one, Like I didn't argue , I didn't argue, I said to Roy who's it how long is, how's Sue's sister, I said two years, the said no, one year, I won't argue. It's two . There are there's a little hanging on for you from my Scottish holiday. Who's that . Oh. Well, I just, I've got to take it in now put it on . Oh that's nice. Yes. Lovely . Did you have a nice time Sid? Yes. Yes, it was good, yes it was good . It was different . Were looking forward to our next one now. Where you going next one. Don't know. Go to Australia. . Go to Australia . , well we shall, we shall do, but eh, in actual fact, cos my son, who we go out to be with of course is over in this Country at the moment. Oh is he? I told you he was visiting us. Oh. Been over here for six months, his over here for three years in all, so. Does he live out there, he doesn't no? Well his in the Australian airport . Australian airport . His had to a eh , give up his British passport and become an Australian . Has he? Oh yeah. Oh he has been . He had to do that before he joined the air force . Oh I didn't know that see . Oh dear, oh dear, well any way your back too the grind stone now aren't you? Well yeah look's like that. Yeah your back too the grind stone. And I can see on his face his glad too have you back. Dead chuffed.. Here are I'll show you getting it.. What's the plane journey like there?. Going I was alright coming back, yesterday I felt tired, at three o'clock I went too bed. Yeah. Next thing I new my dad was asking me had I got everything ready for work, half eleven at night. Oh. Then I just went back too sleep again. We said you had. But I never had it going out there. Did you sleep on the plane? Yeah, but not for long though, it's so cramped you know. Is it cramped? Yeah. Is it really, you'd thought that'll be spacious on plane. I mean it's a big plane . Given the . Yeah, well there a long journey aren't they? No more than you get on the planes. No unless you go first class, that cost thousands, and they've got really big seats and leg room and everything. Oh yeah . Do they look after you on the plane Sue? Oh yeah, yeah, I don't think. Where did you stop, Singapore? No Singapore on the way back , didn't get off the plane though, I mean they only re-fuel, your only allowed off for about half an hour. Wasn't one of them . I like those . Oh no his been. Well you know what I mean . Yeah, yeah. Oh you weren't, not allowed out the airport. Your not. No. Hi. Hello Irene. How's you? Well your a bit listless today . Yeah, they getting away for a weekend. Ah now wonder you look a little bit lost. I'm a little bit lost. Oh poor little creatures lost her baby. Ah leave the big one at home . , yeah you have, it's true, that is true, any way must let Sue get on with her work. Yeah, Will he notice the difference between Cod and Haddock . Difference? Yeah, is there a difference? Oh yeah, two difference sorts of fish but similar. Yeah. Yeah, that's all. He had a heart attack heart attack. His had another one has he? Major one this time. His walking around,. Is he really? Yeah, he had three when he was thirty six. What age is he know? His forty nine know. He had a heart. No age really is it? We don't, we don't know, we knew what caused the last ones, but don't know what cause this one at all. I presumed he worked does he? Is that getting him down? He was made, he was made redundant two years ago, head of computers in a bank. Oh. Now his working for nine thousand, I think he thinks his working for pittance. Yeah, well if be comparison to what it was, I suppose it's gotta be. . Yeah. . What at? What's he do know? His sitting there doing proofs . His got no, whereas he had . No, no. I don't know , we just don't know, he said his not over weight, don't know what it was. his metabolism possibly. Yeah , and his colest colestrial 's alright, you think . you know . Did he have a high colestrial level then, I presumed they must of tested it. Before, first time, but this time he hasn't. No . But ehm , they just don't know what it was, it's just one of those things that could of happened, they taken . What have a look at them or. Yeah his got to do another stress test and have more level . Yes, yes, yeah. And have another one of those, but they want to wait until after . Yes,and eh, can do more harm than good so it's better wait . Yes, that's what we've done . Yeah, well you don't expect him to be on top of the world do you? No, but all. Or do you? No, but we've all got to live with him still ain't we? Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, just turn blind eye . Oh his very calm, very calm, and I'm still going to work, I didn't go to work while, I went too work while he was in hospital, and when he first came out. Yeah. You know stayed at home, but I'm back at work know. I only work three days a week. Anyway eh. says I wanna go away for the weekend, so I've changed all the times, no he doesn't, oh, he said . I see. Oh I don't know.. He'll grin and bear it . Yeah, yeah, I think it was in hospital, again I think he sacred, probably scared now his coming . Well it could be. Or it not the hospital . No, his, his in the right place I suppose in the event of any thing happening aren't you. Hello . wouldn't understand, it's just hard work when you've got the rest of the family to see to as well. Yes, yes, especially the little one. for thirteen years. Is it thirteen years since. We had the others. Yeah, oh. thirty six, thirty six. Hm, oh. His not violent . His not what? violent, last time he use to be violent. Was he? Difficult to imagine that, isn't it, any body had a heart attack been violent. Oh no, the minute something doesn't go there right way. Yeah. . Yeah. I don't cower now, I use to cower. , yeah. . Yeah, yeah. You've gotta live and let live I don't really care. That's true, that is true, well I've got to get me shopping, see you then. Get some shopping done . Good day love. Hello Sidney, how are you? Alright Elvia, and you, I see your working hard again,. . Oh, look who it is? Hello darling. What are you, what you doing here? Doing my shopping Sidney, guess who I've got to feed tonight?. Lasagne. Mince or that. No Lasagne. You've gotta actually make it? Oh my gould. Yeap, I'm gonna actually make it. You still on holiday? Yeah I go back tomorrow. Ah, so you been doing a whole week of cooking. No it's the first time . . Every time I come in here she buys mince meat , why not ah. Well it's easy in it? Cos the window closed, that's why it's getting colder isn't it, cos you've got your window closed. I had it open yesterday. I said to you Debbie's got her window open up there , it's her day off. Yeah . She was on holiday. Oh. She's been on holiday. What are you doing for a holiday then Deb's. We just went out for days and that really last week. Hm. Went out for the day yesterday, couldn't afford it Irene. Who's on holiday with you then? Grant's been off, but he's gone back to work today. . Yeah. I went ehm, when did I go? Thursday afternoon for about three .. Was there really? They said that ehm, if you get it in less than six . Oh that's right yeah . You get the fifty pound prize. That's it. Shaney wasn't actually playing a game, but she was sitting next too a women that was. Yeah. Every time the woman was marking off the numbers Shaney was turning the card over, you know, she turned it over in six cards. Yeah. And the women went oh eh unlucky that was seven numbers, Shaney said to her it weren't that was six numbers, and they got and that and got the computer print out and all that , and then it was six numbers. . Was that Scottish women? And then, yeah, and then Sunday night, the first three games guaranteed at fifty pounds. Yeah. And like half way through it they said ehm, they've giving somebody the wrong prize money or something, they've giving somebody fifty pounds, they should off giving it to this other coloured women right, and apparently this women was giving it all wow man yeah man, and all this you, you know they give it to them in the end and then she won the twelve hundred pounds. Ahh. Yeah, yeah, the coloured women won the twelve hundred pounds. Is that the most the machine . Yeah, yeah, no, no, I never go on them, never, never . . Yes I've noticed that . On ours. Yeah. Yeah, so . So and so a number on a yellow or a blue or a red, yeah I've seen it . Yeah, yeah . Oh yeah , it's too quick. I don't like it, I never play it. No, I don't play on the other machines either. I don't like, I wish I could play it, I couldn't possible make, I keep asking your mate to teach me , I . . Yeah but she won't. She won't. Lucky, your gonna take her luck. I said I won't play it when your there, just show me how too,machine you know, you know when you get, oh you get silly we can't play these new machines. I don't you know, you might do , I don't. You know how to play those machines. Well there too fast for me . You know those that you push. No, she mean the ones the eh, apples and pairs. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. The one the one arm bandits. Yeah. Yeah. and they say you know, I always do the wrong one you know. Alice comes back you know, Alice comes back. Yeah, she come back, I said show me how to play you know, she said no. Ten pea doesn't she? And she emptied it all out doesn't she on this. I know she only sent eighty five pound the other week, Monday afternoon, one afternoon, and she come out with three pounds, eighty three pounds . All . . It's your money you know that, he told me that. Oh yes. He said I've seen them put fifty . Yeah. she comes away at, she's fiddled on she doesn't, she doesn't, she takes about three thousand and comes back . No, well if you can do that. Well it's desperate in it normally, sensible, any way so what you going to do, go and put . Yeah. Are we all up for dinner then tonight? No. That's it you tell her Deb. Who did I tell that to ? You lying old bag, you lying old bag What sort of language is that for a young lady. Can you hear what she's saying about me Sidney? . She's saying horrible things about me Sidney. The question, the question now, are they true or not? No, there not. Just knickers .. I don't no that we do.. Lady in the back of the car, just in case.. .. I told you I saw her in the mornings standing at the bus stop . Oh gould.. There's me going like that in front of. Did not see her?. Shows you what things she's got in her flat ain't I? . Hm. . Pardon, what are we talking about?. Shaney's moving to Jersey at the end of August. Who? Shaney. She's going is she? She's got a flat over there.. No, no, to Jersey going out there to live. How lovely. Ehm, Bank Holiday August, well were going with them that weekend cos like. Ah lovely. Like taking the van over to ehm, put all there stuff in. Oh that . .Got a big van or a little one. Well his got a little one that he uses for work, but his borrowed his boss big one to take his stuff over. So ehm, so, what she going to work over there then. Well get a job when she gets over there, yeah. You have to get, go there,go over there next year. We, we, we were supposed to be going there this year, we had it booked up and every thing, we lost our hundred pound deposit. Why? Cos Clive hasn't paid his tax for three years, and the tax man caught up with him. . An awful lot of money, so we had to cancel it. Oh. Yeah. His a naughty boy. They catch up with you in the end . Oh yeah. .Like David, David and his phone , he won't buy it, this year they give double loss on to. Yeah.. He, he won't get away with it. Eh? He won't get away with it.. Were going next year, we hope to with Maurice, don't he, he wants to go don't he? Have you been there before? Yeah, no they haven't been before, they've got a wedding this year. Who did? No I'd love too, I've always wanted too. I have. Have you been? . Is it nice? . Mind you, ehm, he, you must have a car. Yeah. Oh. Well hire a car, cos it's a lovely island and you, you never find these places unless you have a car to, sort of go around . Round the place, island. There buses I think are . Well I think so, I'm not sure. Yeah, I think there are. car, just go where you want then. Can go there, yeah . Oh yes , yeah, yeah, yeah. But Harry spoke a bit the last time we went , he said So what hire a car . Oh yes. Yeah. It's not so expensive actually, we like. No, I believe it's really reasonable. I mean, I think it was about, it worked out about eight three pound for a week, so I mean if there's four of you then it's you know . . . all over the place . The air fares have gone up,, cos she's got relatives there and she said where it used to be about . Well, ours worked out, when we worked ours out, it worked out, what was it, three hundred and eighty six. Four? No that was for two of us. In a hotel as well? Well, it was a self catering flat.... It was. It was four hundred pounds. Yeah, that's probably, that was probably eh. Each, that each? Well I mean when Shaney's living out there, I mean, she might be able to a That was each for a week wasn't it? But you've for accommodation . Accommodate for everybody that comes over eh, charge them a small fee. Pay what get , cost the earth, I mean look at us at .. It's what, three hundred and something each. Where did you go to? Heathlands at Bournemouth last year in March. Three hundred and something each. Yeah. No, that wasn't Heathlands that was Anglo Swiss . Anglo Swiss , sorry. Oh I'm trying to say is in this country pay so much... It's worth it. No it's not. It's a lovely hotel. It seems like it's cheaper to go away. Well no it's not cos you don't know what your going into do you . Yeah, I suppose so. We know what were going into and it's a beautiful hotel, lovely food, and you pay what you get. Yeah. Let's be honest you do. you can tell us all about it when you've been over. Well were going for a long weekend, like the Bank Holiday weekend . Yeah. Have have have they got a place at a .. Yeah,over there. Oh they have. They've got there mum and dad , got a flat over there. Oh nice. So. Cos Dave's been out the country like ehm, well it's just under ten years, and if he stays out longer than ten years he loose, he loose his citizenship. That's it, yeah. So he wants to go back. Go back, course, yeah. Eh. Yeah, course he does. Like Tony said she's, you know she's got no home, she's doesn't particularly like her job so. She don't like that any more? What did she do on that course? Sales Rep, no, no, no, she's ehm works for a recruitment agency. Does she? But it's up by Heathrow Airport, it's a long journey every day . Oh god . You know like twice a day, so she's got nothing too loose really. Well good luck to her mate, it's the only way, do these things when your younger , might as well, just wish her all the luck. . Yeah, oh yeah. these days . Can't be any worse than this . His calling.. . .. Watching all the cricket and stuff, oh yeah . Yes , yes of course. Is there cricket on today? No there's test match starts on Thursday I think. Ooh All worked out . Oh yes . . Hm? Were going up to the test match at the Oval, Clive likes that. Yeah, I don't blame him. all the time.. His told me I'm not allowed to talk.. I'm not going then . Debbie . Do sign language,.. Oh. No it's not. Oh, that's, that's not nice is it? Young chaps don't like cricket, it's only the old boys. Course they do. They don't mind if they play, but a lot of them want's it, watch it on, watch cricket. You want to see the youngsters there at the . Yeah. There are a lot of youngsters there, yeah . That's what he said to me, cos I said oh it's all old men you know what I mean, he said it's not he said like, you go down the West Indian end, he said and it's really a blinding day out. Yeah. Really good, well I said if someone tells me to shut up. Make a drum and rope her in. Yeah. With cans of lager. . I know, I'm gonna get the eh . Oh, what was it . cos I've got the shopping list. Right . See you later. Well she's as pale as a perivale ghost. She said she thoroughly enjoyed it but she wished . Oh no . Well I don't know, I think it's a bit, it's like Sheila, I mean when David first went out there that's all she kept on about was going out to live in Australia. When she came back after she went out there too his wedding she never mentioned it once again. Really. I think it's a bit desolate in places and a bit ram shackled, shanty fashion and, once you get outside the town. Yeah, that's right, yeah. I think the heat can get a bit much for ya also if your not used to it. Yeah, that's what she said, she said that . Well, she's now I mean Sheila was out there in January that's virtually the middle of summer. Yeah. But I didn't recognise her when she came off the plane. She looked thin, gaunt. Thin?. Well I don't think ehm, she and, daughter in law saw exactly eye to eye for a start. Oh I see. Knowing Sheila she probably wanted to rule the roost and Elaine wasn't going to have it. Oh . Oh I want ehm, can we get ehm. What do you want your Whisky? No cigarettes. Two hundred ehm Bensons? No. Silk Cut? Silk Cut? Oh my bloody trolley's gone out and walked . Well go and get it . Go and get it . Yeah Silk Cut . Silk Cut . Ehm Extra. Extra. Yeah Alright cheers mate, lost the bloody thing. All I did was turn me back for a minute and it was . They watching, they watch like a hawk, cos remember I did it last, I did I did it last time, this is yonks ago. Yeah, I'm watching. And when I came, when I went up stairs. Yes. She said to me ehm, didn't count those, didn't give a re refund on those cigarettes yet, I said no . Can't do it up here. I said I added up Whisky, added up wine, nothing in , but they they watch you. Yeah. Have you got them by the way? she's bring them up. . Here are take.. Cigarettes. What you pay for your cigarettes? I dunno. Right, well, all I can do is take one lot, one coupon. Yeah, that's fair. But, she's , now she's gonna ask me , ridiculous isn't it eh? Sorry I know . Yeah. So what, what I'll shall do it was fourteen pounds no what I'll do is the whole amount and if she says any thing I say . Thanks . You know me darling. Do you know, I was ehm,. Not pulled? . Still spend still spend your money Irene. Don't need any more? No. You still spend the money. Two ninety eight yes, right. That's yours, that's yours , take .. Oh, I'm alright I'm . Thirty two and ninety eight, thirty three, thirty four, thirty five, and one pound. Thanks very much dear. That's all right. Been any body else I might've eh. I know, yeah. . What she doing? . . Yes I know love, yeah, don't want to get in any trouble, ta la Gwen. Hi Gwen . Ta la. Ta la love. By the way is Bob still with his local round down at Marlow Road? Yes. I never see him these days, I don't know why. Bob's doing the rounds yeah. Hm, okay. His probably in and out doors so quick you can't see him. . You know what I mean. Yeah I know what you mean. , trolley came all the way down here, out through here and in the car park . I know did it?. It was up over there. It came here? Yeah, down here and up over there. Oh I say. I couldn't believe it . You said my trolley going there. They do it all individual. Well yes, what you talking about, all the cigarettes that's what they have to do apparently . Yeah . Oh gould ten ninety, one ninety nine . Hm, what do you think you can't. Ten nines are ninety. No, look. Ten pound ninety, ten pound ninety nine, right? Is it ten pound ninety nine? No. You add a nought on the end of that figure, now what have you got there? You add one pound ninety . Look it says one ninety one, yes. Yeah. Put a nought on the end then what does it read? One ninety one. No, add a nought on the end of it. One, nine hundred and ten, you said a nought on it. Yeah. Oh, ninety O one. Nineteen ten. Oh. Nineteen, one O. Oh, I see, nineteen ten. Isn't it? Just nineteen ten, that cost that much , you got to be joking, it cost me fifteen fourteen when I use to get . Well they've gone up since then. Christ , I don't believe it Sure it's nineteen? Yes . Are you having me on? There gonna pull that down obviously. Yeah, yeah, we haven't got it, we could of had that as a nice car park. It it's a car park. No, it wouldn't be big enough. Wouldn't it? No. pay for that, they just a little annexe, you'd only get half a dozen cars in it. Move that I said. Hm. I've already got to give you ninety pea back. I was . Had your twenty, I don't believe it . It's a bit late for renovation I expect. I thought I'd have to give you back a lot more money. No, no, no. There's that black driver again nine years. Road is there's the country is there's, so the road might as well be there's. Gonna have some rain later on I think. Did last night didn't it Sid? Well it did yesterday. When you when out, was it in the car, it was wet? Yeah. When I looked out. There was ehm. , you can't even reverse. I remember Debbie bringing me home once from Bingo and he's coming up as she's coming up, she's almost there too her house, and he wouldn't budge, he wouldn't back, he wouldn't reverse at all. Well that was probably sheer bloody chasifness. Well, she was wild Now you should have brought that thing when Sue was talking about the Australia Barrier Reef. What darling? That thing, switched on the conversation. I did. Oh, lovely. . Oh, lovely Sid, not with Elvia about having a leg over or any thing. She didn't mentioned it did she? She did. Well you can listen to it later on. Oh, oh, you can play it back can you? Yeah. Oh that'll be interesting. . Have you got much on it Sid? No, actually I. That would of been interested at Sue's. See I'm, I've buggered it up . Should of told me , and I could of kept more. I tried to get and Paula on the tape. Oh yeah. And. Don't know people do they? No, there's, they say in the brief you've read it, eh, ok, if they ask you tell them, or show them this form, say what it's all about, but don't tell them till after. Conversation. Because otherwise it's always stinted . It's all false in it? Yeah. Have you got us two on there at all? Ehm, oh yeah. Have you? Well you'll be on this one won't you? Yeah, but, I mean indoors, yeah. For a start . Oh no, no, not indoors, no. I meant too a, I buggered it up I. I haven't had time to get it up on the machine to change again quickly but I've had a quick look at the situation with regard to the five per cent increase. Yeah. So the saving that we were going to make them, by reducing five per cent but increasing the lancer machine bearings and bumping this standard cost one up to well as it turned out, seventeen per cent margin. Yeah? Mhm. Would would ta make that three thousand pounds. Which is the one we've just been talking about. Yeah. And so we were going up from that price to that price. That's what I wanted to do. That's what you wanted to do, you hadn't discussed these with them. I've mentioned it to him and what he's saying is come back with a firm proposal. Obviously what happened then this was before This is because this was the dead stock that we sent him. The tools I wanted to get rid of. Okay. Yeah. It's changed really now because of the fact we pulled Yeah. we've got more of a leverage so we Yeah. need to re-look at how we Because he's mentioned straight away, as soon as he was in the mire Right. well you know, the five per cent reduction you know, don't worry about that at the minute and and all this sort of thing so Right yeah. it it does need another Yeah. looking at. Basically what if we do increase to that price. Yeah. On the machine build that he's given me for this year, of which that is an example. The two arrow machines use it and there's a hundred and two hundred and nine machines altogether Yeah. Mill which will have three of these one each machine. six hundred bearings pairs. Six hundred and thirty seven to be precise Right. yes. Well the difference is about six hundred and seventy two pounds. You mean the increase in prices. Yes that's how much extra it'll cost him. Yeah. Er we've run up a cost of two hundred and fifty quid getting . And the rest and the rest . Well this is this is what the point Yeah. I think now's the time. I want to try and get it done, bearing in mind Elaine's going to have to have the baby on Friday if she hasn't had it before. Yeah. So will more than likely be off next week, but I do want to try and get something done with this and some of the other accounts, I want to try and get them out the way before I Right. . Now what's the the how have you calculated the five per cent erm reduction? Is th is that because all Yeah. these are down five per ce No that's not it. That's down five, that's dow er that's up That's up. because it's the lancer machine. That one's up because it's the lancer machine. It's just those two that'll have gone down by five per cent which are the sabre machine bearings. Right. Okay? So what's that five per cent negative worth to us? Well what I what I did here, to work it out so I could come up to some sort of value, is I said I haven't had time to chuck these back on the screen yet to start again Yeah. but this is where it got to when we talked about it last time. Er is I'd looked at the using their machine build which I've built in , Yeah. on the sabre range, the lancers and the arrows, Yeah. it would mean that is the price that they would sell at the nineteen ninety four price volume. And that's the price up to that one. Yeah that's it, the first five lines. So you're going for a five six to five nine, thirteen nine to fourteen six, thirteen seven to fourteen five. So that that's the saving effect, the difference between those two is the saving . Yeah, that is the saving that they would have made on each of those builds . So we're talking there about I'll I'll do it on the computer but Savings savings of whatever this is, it's three hundred erm that's er seven hundred, that's a thousand . Er thirteen seven that's eight hundred, that's eighteen hundred. That's a big one isn't it. About fifteen hundred. Er that's three thousand three hundred forty eight machines you see. Right, so another sixteen hundred there. So so that's four or five thousand pounds that we're giving to them. Right and and by putting these prices up on the lancer and that I was actually clawing a couple of thousand pound back off them. And that's I was trying to put myself in the position of before. Still offering them a three thousand pound saving. Yeah. But helping our spread if you know what I mean. Yeah? Right. Now it's a different ball game because we I think we have an opportunity to maintain that price for a while. I mean i it's it's where we feel we need to make the emphasis. This is based on full full year isn't it. Yeah. Erm one of the things that er would be nice to end up with is a price on the books which is the higher price. Yeah. So that the price we want to end up with on the books is is Mhm. that one, that one, that one Yeah. that one and that one. Yeah, now well this is That one e erm I mean I'm a I was just I I said twenty pound O six, it was a quick calculation, it ends up at seventeen per cent margin. Erm you see it's it's balancing that between the fact that we don't Mm. But we're s we're gonna be charging it approximately twice as much as would. But we've helped him. And I think we've got But but but we're only charging twice as much as would erm because are providing a standard bearing. Er well selected for their standards that we think is the only way they could do it. Yeah. Although, understanding the way, volume manufacture and I would say they've probably if they've got similar production facilities, got a very good chance of producing good stuff anyway. Along the lines of , there's a very good probability they'll just take Mm. it straight off the line knowing that it's coming in. We we haven't got as precision. So what's the advantage of of our product over theirs. Nothing really. Think of one. Well er . There must be some dimensions that have been more thoroughly checked than than er Well no because I c I can't say exactly how 's applying their product. They could be doing it on a Yes well ninety per cent of them will be P five. They could be selecting them off the Yeah. line. Yeah if they if their churning out the stock that tu tend to churn out, I mean I go along for an enquiry for a few and find they've got thousands in stock. You know. And you think, Bloody hell, well I'm not surprised they can guarantee getting P fives. If I had all them to choose from, I could guarantee it. I don't know how they're achieving the price. I mean they're they're s they were something like twelve quid a pair. Yeah? Now John says he he can only imagine that they're selecting them out. But then again, John's a precision man. Yeah. Yeah? So you know, coming to terms with how manage to do what they do, you can see it's probably actually not too bad a price to charge when they can get them cheaper . Yeah yeah yeah yeah. But but we also know that if er select from the end of the line of standard production. They don't select on every feature, they only select on some. Don't they? No not necessarily they could er they could check for all tolerances And I don't know how they do it. This is it I don't know how they do it. It's only dimensional tolerances don't forget. They don't have to test them or anything. Well according to the the P Thanks Carol, the the the P five specs no doesn't involve noise testing. No it's purely dimensional. The thing is,the machine tool industry or super precision requirements be become use and take for granted a noise specification, the fact that it must run quietly. But you can get P Right well that's something that's something that you've got to you've got to differentiate. Mm. Ours are noise tested correct? Yeah. P five does not require a noise test. No. Correct? Yeah. Right so what you're getting from us is a noise tested bearing. Right okay. Secondly er We guarantee P five. We we are we're guaranteeing P five plus a noise level. Yeah. So you're actually getting something that you terribly badly need I put the seed of doubt into Steve's mind about the fact that I could not say that er bearings could be guaranteed P five at that price. I said, the way they're picking them out, I couldn't say that they can guarantee every bearing. Right and and what's the noise test that we put ours through, is that three dimensional noise testing there frequencies and and so on and Yeah the normal . Right, so so what we're doing is a noise test to super precision Yeah. limits. Yeah. Right is there anything else like that pardon me, oh dear . Is there anything else like that which erm er which we do that they may not do. Not really. Cage it'd be interesting to find out what cage material they're supplying. What cage material are you supplying? I've a feeling B E T N. B E T N. Yeah so it's the er cage. the buttress type thing. Yeah . Er okay, so you've got your quiet noise running. Quiet noise . Be sure about the cage. Yeah, it's the one, I'm not so sure what they would supply you see. Possibly nylon. They do tend to have single nylon that's a single strip that just folds round. They do a lot of that support frames. Do they? Yeah, a single strip that they actually just feed into the ring and then put the balls in. So it's not actually a solid ring, it's n nylon thing which sits in. Oh yeah they use that f in in the in the P two class product they have some of those in. Japanese do it as well. they works, I mean you know, our point is we always you know, we've got the guarantee with the cage and that. But er Well okay so so you're going to you're going to erm emphasize the er the fact that what we are supplying is a noise tested Mhm. P five bearing . Yeah. You're going to emphasize the fact that our cage of course is erm a buttress cage Mhm. er out of er Polyamide six six. Yeah. Is it still polyamide sixty six, not . I don't think it's changed yet. Erm Our stocks over there would still be that anyway. And er er and and that that these have er substantial advantages for them and and don't know but but there's got to be an element of doubt. Yeah yeah. Erm and although they may say they're noise tested, erm I think you've gotta question whether they're noise tested to the level. And you've seen our facilities here. Er and and you know how Yeah. how very very careful we are. Mm. So what you're what you can be sure of getting from us is absolutely on line and of course you're getting a service . Right. Erm e mainly it's where do I put the emphasis. I know we've got a lever now, yeah, we're gonna get rid of this in other words, Steve's gonna give us something for it. Yeah. Yeah, it's identifying where we want to get it. Now okay, I know what you mean by saying yes, you want to get the higher price everywhere. But if we took the highest price of everything then we're making thousands and thousands and thousands. Now Yeah well presumably we're reversing this position. That's right, we've got to balance that with the fact that we did promise them a decrease, but we've got the erm leverage of having helped them. So if we've got Well hang on hang on, hang on. I'll tell you what we'll do. I'll tell you what we'll do. Yeah. How about we leave the price as it is. We'll we'll we'll leave no no we'll no no we'll leave these these prices here which we were gonna reduce, we're gonna Yeah. leave them as they are. Right. But we will give them a five per cent reduction on those prices wh for deliveries between March and September. So we're giving em it for six months. We're giving it for six months. . That's worth two and a half thousand quid. Yeah. Mm. Er June to December he'll say. Alright June to December but that's Yeah Just easier you see, cos he'll say the then for when we do a price increase next time. Cos if you go back up in September, it's higher for the increase next January. Well that's exactly right. . But but at Yeah okay but at least we've got the price on the table. Maybe we don't increase it next January. Mm. Maybe we leave it where it is, but at least that price is on the table. Right. Whereas anything else we do, we've got to fight ou we've got to claw our way back to that . I'll tell you what then, we've got the two options,we've got the one area of this five per cent where Yeah. we don't want to give em it for the whole year. Yeah. And I've got the standard cost here I need to get up. Right. Right, now erm I want to get that up first. Yeah. I want to make profit on one size rather than er Yeah. Yeah, keep it on others. Yeah. So how about if I look at the six monthly saving, Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I look at what that is in value, about two and a half thousand, I'll look at this one, Yeah. I'll put a reasonable price in there, I see what that's gonn It's very much worth it d'ya know. I think television would be as much to blame as any you know the bairns the children's programmes are all in English and so on you can. It amazes me I hear Orkney children in Orkney and they'll be playing and talking to one another in English you know. They'll be exclamations and things they're just exclamations that they've heard I think on television. Yes I know that with mine it was American. They used all these Americanisms because a lot of the problems were American. Yes. And the they used to when they would speak Orcadian among their their pals and then when they when they were playing games all the kids the Orcadian ones whether they were Orcadian or not would adopt this American drawl and they all spoke like that . Yes of course maybe play acting when they're doing that they're more conscious of the way they're speaking and they probably want to make it right with what they think it should be. And as I say I don't know what sort of things children watch on T V but it's all in English. Did you find at school that your dialect was hammered? Yes. Er when I was young erm you know you didn't have to use dialect at all. Er we got leave to use it in the playground as far as I can imagine but we made an awful division or if we didn't it pretty quickly in the class. I can't remember which teacher it was referred to anything Orcadian we used as Orkneyisms. And if you were used Orkneyisms you were a very poor scholar indeed. I remember a wee boy in the class I was in in the primary school and he got a row he I remember him getting a row from the teacher and he s the teacher said what did you do wrong and he said oh I've gone and putten putten where I should've putten put yes. What was putten was that was that East Mainland? No that's that's West Mainland too. Putten and while am I putten nothing. A putten something somewhere Yes. instead of put it somewhere. Yes and we'd never use put. Are there a lot of differences between the the East and the West Mainland? Er quite a lot I think maybe. Most would you know be in intonation and pronunciation. To anybody who's used to listening to dialect the East and the West are very different. All the parishes used to be different and it used to be possible at one time to know approximately where in Orkney somebody came from. And this is still the case with older folk. Many of the older folk if you get them really going in their own dialect you can just say roughly where they come from. One of the common differences between East and West is the words like table and table in West we'd say table and East they'd say table. And the West peal comes appeal and the West's heard becomes a heard and the one sort of difference that's still there and it may take quite while to go is that the East Mainland when they're saying a sentence they tend to go up at the end of the sentence the voice rises. Whereas the West Mainland never goes really up at the end of the sentence or at least not to the same extent. I can't make the East Mainland very well. I would like to go to the town today , and she's awfully she's no the day and they tend to go up at the end. And there's other wee things too. Something that the East Mainland folk find awfully funny is the West Mainland call potatoes . We don't go out to gather potatoes we go to hunt taters And the East Mainland don't say that at all they would call them more tatties or taties I thought taties was north isles. That's verging on north isles right enough. Well Westray maybe has as distinctive a dialect as any apart from North Ronaldsay of course. North Ronaldsay is in a class by it's own and easily recognizable. But er I believe that at one time people from the islands settled in some of the farms for the East Mainland whether there's a similarity in the matter of table or heard and all these sort of things. There is a similarity creeps in there whether that came with islands or whether it was there before I just don't know. Because they table and heat instead of table and . Yes. It sound far more proper in the West Mainland then. Well you could say that and yet we're awfully broad. I would say in just a general accent the way we talk you know. Birsay folk are always considered very broad and so are the Harray folk. Maybe more so than say Sandwick and I find like Rendal folk you could tell some of them even yet. I always think they have a very nasal pronunciation. They seem to talk quite a lot up high in the in their nasal passages. And Evie of course well Evie's great for sort of old fashioned exclamations you know. They're great for that sort of thing. And that's a good old Orkney word too. Just as an exclamation and Evie folk would take it into their conversation I think even yet the older ones of them. I've got a granny who comes from the south isles and she says and that's . If you say something and she's surprised she'll say, oh . Yes. That's a thing I find that we're losing very much is all these exclamations and of course a lot of exclamations were calling on a divine hand of God to look after you. I mean there's a whole range of exclamations that, bless me, or bless me as we would say. And God and mercy me that was just have mercy on me. And mine matey and bess be about me that was quite a long exclamation but it was something surprise them terribly, Oh bess be about me, just sort of, Oh God come to me help, sort of thing. And the blessings on me, that was the thing that sort of for anybody who helped them. It wasn't, Oh thank you very much I'm much obliged or anything like that. It was, Be blessings on thee, I mean and may God bless you for the help you've given me. And that's a common enough one yet. Granny she says, My . yes. was a a very common one too. You see you don't hear them any more. Oh yes. What was that supposed to mean? Was it just Oh just the same thing. Just an exclamation. And I think would be more Scottish. Was it bairns. Oh yes bairns. I I could not say it wasn't fairly common too but no maybe yes is a good one. doing dialect there's still a things like the wireless and the weather things like that sometimes give it a personality as a . My mother when she wanted anybody to turn off the wireless used to say . Much to the amusement of two American girls who stayed with us because they didn't know what this phrase was I mean they couldn't have sort it out in the first place of what it meant. When they had sort it out they just didn't know but they would go you know prancing around saying to one another saying then . A lot of Orkney a lot of, I'm going to sneeze now, a lot of Orkney men use the word, She, Mhm. when they're referring to the tractor or the horse or the car Mhm. is that an Orkney way of doing it or is that just a sort of male thing? Erm I've never really thought about it I think it's a male thing probably isn't it? I think maybe English men would refer to their car as She or so on if they get to think you know they make things have personalities you start to give them personal pronoun there. Or their boat you know boy she's Yes. boy she's no running right. That's right. The tractor's a she right enough very often. And there's another sort of things now that we don't hear is when you sit down at the table to eat erm they're probably the most the hostess would say now would be, Help yourself. But er there was a whole range of things like,Put in the hand and and erm they thought you weren't eating plenty or told to and supper. Yes that's just an Orkney way of saying fall too. Yes. And Put in the hand just literally put your hand in and get something to eat. Cos it makes for a lot of you know if you don't have and say well I'm not going to put in my feet anyway. Yeah another thing that that old folk use I know that my granny used to say she'll say she'll turn things round she'll say, I'm having nothing with it to do, instead of, I'm no having anything to do with it. Is that common? Yes it's fairly common among older folk still. We s tend to move the sentences around more and they lines sort of you know, Do you know where my shovel is,where my shovel is and erm, Who's the day, asking how are you. That's from Shetland, Who's the day. I know who's the day, yes just a similar similar phrasing. The thou and the thee and the thines. You've just said thou who's thou the day. There are a lot of old folks still use that? Oh yes it's quite common and common in middle aged folk even yet among people you're familiar with. I mean even when I was small you wouldn't use thee and thou to an older person. It was somehow thought of as being irreverent but to members of your own family and people your own age or somebody younger than you you would use thee and thou. But if it was perhaps even a little one your own age if you didn't know them very well it would be you. Thee and thou were s a term implied intimacy and affection and closeness the thee and thou as far as I always understood it. And another sort of very close phrase that disappeared is is a phrase awfully much used. Orcadian dialect it's often said has no words of endearment no dears or darlings but I think perhaps came as near to it as any word. It was said to small children and maybe a young man would say it to his lass but always implied affection of something young and tender. Yes I'd forgotten that. Yes. You said about West Mainland folk. Well well just the different words it's really a matter of pronunciation. Like in Harray we would say, up to go up and er the Deerness folk then would say, up or something like that, up. And erm It's just to go up. Up yes mhm. Up and up and er in Harray we'd say, wee that's just for us you know, we. And I think the Deerness folk say,wey and we would call a young heifer a . Whereas the Deerness people would call it a . Just very similar the difference is there in the pronunciation. But a completely different word would be the word for what's behind the cattle in the West Mainland it's a and in the East Mainland it's an or an . I think that varies too from parishes to islands. There is this just this slight difference in in the words. I think I'm really sorry now is to see all the old words really going. I don't think they'll be any left once the generation who were born before the war see are gone. But we still have the dialect and the sort of tone of it and and phrasing of it but so much of the old vocabulary is just disappearing altogether. I sometimes find myself using them yet long years you know when I thought I'd forgotten them and any younger person just looks at me in amazement and has no idea what I'm talking about. Yes I remember my granny coming out with the word Mhm. and I hadn't a clue what that was. sort of called a lot of things it was a fright or a flapping around or a haste or a, what did what did granny somet Mm, We don't get enough she said. yeah that's right aha. Well I went into the shop in Harray very short ago. I used to go to Orkney for to go and asked for some cardboard boxes only we call them pasteboard boxes. And when the girl came with them I says I think I'll take them all if you can them. And she looked at me and blinked her eyes I says you what means. No she said. And I says well it is two different meanings the one I'm using is just if you can spare it, if you can it. And a of course is also what they used to get when you wanted to make mealy puddings you made them with the the intestines of an animal and that's also called a . Well that's two that's a word with two meanings that's now just completely out of use more or less. I haven't heard of that one either. Mhm. Oh you wouldn't . No. Yep. Something I did think of when you mentioned about the the cattle dung that the word that we remember was . Ah yes . Well it can be inside but it's really outside and rotted. Rotted wet cattle dung, it's no fresh cattle dung's never . It's when you get this black really stinking rotten hole that you call it . And that's what came out of the was the . That's right. What seeped out of the and mixed with some air from there would have been a little dung in it to it stood half the summer and got to be really high. That was . And heaven help you if you fell in the . Yes that's how I remember it . . I did. Yeah there's there's there's a whole lot of others that were in me head that I I meant to write down before you came in. Mhm. Oh you know it's all right. There's erm it's just that I like it you know . Yeah. Mhm. So long as they understand that there's this also the erm you know er said to me, Oh it's just English sort of said differently. I said well no really at all there's the whole vocabulary as well. Which is the vocabulary is disappearing first and then I think maybe the actual intonations and phrases will disappear then too. But it'll take quite a long time for them to go though. But I do think the vocabulary will be lost very shortly now. Something that I noticed is in the towns like Kirkwall and Stromness there's a kind of slovenly way of speaking Orcadian where they go butter water . Yes that's very much Kirkwall I would say particularly. There is a slight difference between Kirkwall and Stromn so Kirkwall's another place you the accent of a native born Kirkwallian unless you say the butter and water and things like that. And Stromness accents no quite so easily picked out as Kirkwall but you know that they're from one of the two towns anyway usually. I don't know if it's progressed into the villages. I haven't noticed No that's very much well very much Kirkwall I would say. Has Kirkwall always been like that then? Yes. Oh yes. I wondered about that. Yeah I suppose in the country too there Kirkwall would have been the first Kirkwall or Stromness probably Kirkwall would have been the first place where the accents would have been going to go. I would think so and the particularly the folk living in the towns consciously tended to use less Orcadian you know they they'd more dealings with folk from outside the islands for one thing and folk come on in off ships and so on. And part of the reason of course the dialect is gone is that we unconsciously sort of translate what we're going to say into good English so that we're understood. Because there are so many English folk now in every community and we do tend to sort of doctor up the language a bit you know when we talk to them. Otherwise they just wouldn't understand us. And some places that erm I know that in some places they have their own local way of speaking and then they speak a different way to other folk. But then they lapse back into the local way of speaking when they're on their own. But they don't seem to do that here. Er not in Kirkwall you mean? Yeah they they don't seem to like I I know that in Wick a lot of the folk in Wick have have two se they've got their own dialect and they've got English. And in fact in some of the schools was here I know that Mrs Flaws erm from Wyre her idea at the school was to make Orcadian children bilingual. Mhm. And that they would have the the language that they spoke at home and the language that they spoke at school. And that they found it easier when they that that English was English and Orcadian was Orcadian. Yes. Yes I see what you mean probably thou thought Wick's a strange dialect to you they relax it some more too. You see it's really what happens to the older folk like me. I never talk to anybody as I'm talking now even. Er to me friends you know. No it's a it's a totally different when It's a you're relax you speak in a totally different way. Ye yes totally different way. Aha. Do you find that the school used to make you very inhibited about the way you spoke? Oh yes when I went to Stronsay Academy first we were very much kids for the country being all this country ones and often we'd sometimes be and said some terribly wild and woolly awfully countrified phrase you know until pride sort of came to our rescue when we we got out of it as much as ever we could. The Orkney word for what we were doing is chanting. You know that of course if you chant . Chanting's when you're talking to other Orcadians in your best English when there's really no need for it when you just want to show off that you're. Here ago you see it implied that you were so much more learned and knowledgeable and clever if you could talk English. And if you spoke English to a fellow Orcadian you were chanting. Which was their sort of way of making fun of you because you were showing off which is what a native Orcadian thinks any of his contemporaries talking in English to anyone other than an English person. They they're showing off. Or did do mind you I I wouldn't think it now not for younger folk that's not the case but for the older folk it very much worse. Do you think they're being slapped down over dialect? Erm I must have gonna put yeah Do you think they're being slapped down over dialect at school? Made Orcadians very reluctant to speak up in public? Oh certainly. In fact you couldn't adequately express yourself in English you were just better to shut up. Do you think that's still predominant? Oh no no. I think young folk now are much more ready to express themselves and express themselves in public. We were erm not given many opportunities to do that only through things well local clubs like the W R I and which er and in that way all Orcadians just trying to do our best together you know. And the Young Farmers' Clubs were quite good for they encouraged speech making and how to express yourself lucidly and er how to speak nicely. That was quite good. But you see there was always this thought that it was always to better yourself that you were doing this that your Orcadian was just for home about and among yourselves and what it didn't really matter. But if you really wanted to make an impression you had to get rid of this Orcadian fast. For for visitors coming to Orkney do you think it that there's a happy medium?come to Orkney. Is there a way of talking in your natural dialect that they can understand you and yet without losing it? I don't really think there is. I know some folk won't change for anybody they just go harping on in their dialect and er well this fellow said some visitors just don't understand him I always find myself translating in a situation like that. They can't even pick up just the words that are English words only pronounced in the Orcadian way. Like I'm I'm gone to the shop. Well just the intonation and the and the way you would say that they they can't pick it up. The Shetlanders don't seem to do that to the same extent they don't seem to change their dialect. No they're they're much better at keeping it and they seem to manage quite well too. And yet doesn't Shetland doesn't seem so difficult to un maybe it's because we're Orcadian but Shetland doesn't seem to be so difficult to understand for somebody outside than Orcadian is I wonder why? I think that's maybe because we're Orcadian for no matter how good we're feeling if we go you know that yourself if you go south anywhere and you meet up with just anybody that's ever heard an Orcadian. Well my you come from Orkney. You think that's especially true and like say Aberdeen if you go in a shop there and and, at least it used to be the case, and asked for something you be thought you were speaking fine but they would just say, Oh my you down from Orkney for a holiday? You know right away picked you up right away. Did folk often used to accuse you of being Welsh? Qui quite frequently Welsh and once German . Yes I often used to be accused of being Welsh but it is different. It's different but erm if you really get an Orkney talker just talking to one another and er drawing out the words sometimes and so on it can get to be the same lilt as Welsh. And probably to a you know to an untutored ear it would sound reasonably similar. Now let's have a look at some circuit diagrams. have a few of those in. Erm don't know if you want to look at some on the paper,have a look at some in the paper and see how you do on those. Circuit diagrams, erm I'm usually okay with circuit diagrams. Right, okay. Erm just a bit of quick revision, don't think you need to work out the examples cos you're, you're okay at working them out. You've got something like this. Erm you've got a, a battery and you've got say er what? Say six ohms on each of these in parallel and two ohms there and that's say a twelve volt battery erm could you work out the current in that resistor? Tell me how you'd go about it, what sort of thing would you w where would you start? They just want to know There's the the current in that resistor. Er the current in that resistor? In this bottom resistor one of the six o in fact tell you what, we'll make it awkward for you. Here you are, we'll make erm we'll make that bottom one twelve ohms. a six ohms, so the three in parallel. Right. We want to know the current in that. Current is resistance is equal to voltage divide by current, so it's Ohm's Law. Right. So where do you start? Cos that's, that's a typical question that Yeah. they give. A mixture of series and parallel, which you've done before but you probably need a bit of revision. Erm I've gotta work out the current of the twelve volts first. Right. The current in the, the first thing is work out the current in the whole circuit. How are you going to do that? So I have to work out what the entire value of these is. The six o the six ohms and the twelve ohms. What's the oh formula for parallel resistance? What's the formula for series resistance? That one's easier, the, you can you add them, together. Just add them together. So the parallel one is the other one, the awkward one, Yeah. remember what that is? Erm resistance one plus resistance two divide by is it? Erm oh You've got three resistors Yeah. Divide by resistance . No. I can't remember. Okay, let's have a lo a little look at It's an awkward one I know. Right, the series is no problem. We want to find, another little circuit here with R one and R two in it. Right,voltage there. You know that one, total resistance is equal to both in series. Er erm resistance R one plus R two. Right, so that one's no problem, R one plus R two. This one is a bit more of a problem. Just think about two first of all. that's R one, this is R two. Resistance there is equal to Erm and you were getting very close to it, Yeah. with the formula, so think about it for two. And just sort of write down a few expression and then think ah that's not right or yes that's Resistance of one divide by resistance of two, no. Just have a, have a scribble and see what it looks like. I can't honestly e erm Oh. I, I have the feeling that it helps you to see it written down Yeah. and for you to then actually have seen it sort of write it down rather than for someone just calling out to you. I don't know, do you agree with that? Or Yeah. not, but it is better that way. Okay look what they say and if they've got a diagram of . Erm five, this one. And we definitely don't want that one, do we? Volts in atoms. So this is the sort of thing we've got. Two circuit elements I think we need the fire on today. Oh they're showing how to derive them, which you don't really need. just sort of scribble something down, even if you, even if you don't think it's right. I, I can't think of it because that Erm er because of w what's . What I'm trying to do is trying to get it the way it will be in an exam so, cos in an exam you're Ah. going to have to start from somewhere, so Haven't I honestly can't remember. That's as far as I could er Okay, what are the b write down any other things that you can remember about erm I mean turn that over, you can remember Ohm's I can't remember anything. Law. Yeah, I can remember Ohm's Law. Okay write down Ohm's Law, and that's, when you, when you sort of pull things out of your memory it, your memory is usually all in blocks of links So Oh God. Four. Right. Er Think, think about Ohm's Law in terms of what current is, okay now, good. Now are you certain about that? Yeah. Good. So you can look at that, not just sort of little symbols er not really meaning much but we're going to look at what happens to the current. If you make the voltage higher, it'll keep the resistance the same, what happens to the current? Er if you took voltage So so let's say you've got a light bulb. No, I just wondered if you make the voltage higher and Yeah. the resistance the same the current goes up. Current goes up. So you, you can sort of think about it. Get a, get a twelve volt car bulb and start it up at twelve volts and wind the voltage up. You Okay . leave it till about sort of thirty odd and pow, the current's going up. Okay? I if you put, if you make the resistance, keep the voltage the same, you make the resistance higher, what happens to the current? Keep increasing the resistance for the same voltage, what happens to the current? Er if you keep increasing the resistance of the, what happens to the current? Er say it again, I So we've got, let's think, think of a Yeah I know I, I just want to say it specific example again, I keep on, as I'm thinking Okay. over it again. So the voltage isn't changing, you don't You need to worry about that. It's a steady pressure trying to push that through, and we increase the resistance, we make more resistance Less current. So less current, okay? So just think of resistance as sort of something that stops the current, and as you increase it the current gets less. So those are both the right way, the V is on the top, because that's the more, the bigger V gets, then the bigger the current is going to get. The R is on the bottom because the bigger R gets, the smaller. Right Mm. if you have R ten times what it was in the pres the previous one, you'll now only get a tenth of the current out. Yeah. Okay. Make, make the resistance a hundred times what it was you'd only get a hundredth of the current. Make your voltage twice what it was, and keep everything else fixed, you'll get twice the current. So that's, that is the way that most people find is easiest to remember Ohm's Law. You don't have to remember all of them, cos if you remember one you just need a little bit of maths to work out the others. Erm so that's one you can remember on your own, you can work it out, you can write it down. What about erm power? And erm the, what, how would you work out, think of a practical example, how would you work out the wattage erm if you know the current? Erm the wattage if you know the current. So you know I mean this is, okay, let's say you haven't got a clue, you can't work out what it is so you think oh alright, I'm stuck. Well Yeah. let's get something practical, fan heater, let's say it's about ten amps. It's probably getting on for thirteen. Let's say it's about ten amps so which way round would it go? Erm we've got I equals V over R, doesn't help there. And we've got this one for wattage, what's the wattage? Well the wattage of a fan heater is about what? Er let's say it's about two point four kilowatts. Mm. Right. Two point four kilowatts. That's the wattage and the current, Er fan heater, say around ten amps. I Yeah. mean you, you know these things, you know roughly what the wattage of a Yeah. fan heater is, you know roughly what current it takes. And you know what the voltage is Yeah, two forty. Two forty. So what's the tie up between those? Er these are actual values, something you know, so you're not dealing with a, a weird isolated concept. Ten times two forty. Right, so it looks as if Current times voltage. looks as if watts is equal to the voltage times the current, the current times the voltage. And it is. So that's a way of not relying on remembering, cos you've got so many little squiggles you've got to remember, not just in physics, in chemistry and in everything else. If you tried to remember them all as just these equations, you'd be very easily getting confused about which one was which and you'll just get your head cluttered with all sorts of stuff and so that way something that you know, something you can bring it back to. So watts is V I, now this is a common question that you get. Erm let's say a hair dryer is rated at erm er let's make it a telly. T V is rated at a hundred and twenty watts, right? Mm. How big a fuse would you put in it? Right. Okay? That, that's how they'd word Yeah. the question. So how would you go about that? How would you think about that? Right. Watts is equal to voltage times current. Right. So it's a hundred and twenty I'll write the equation down. A hundred and twenty equal to two forty, now erm If you don't know it, current is the one we're trying to find out, you just leave it as I. So you've done is rewritten your equation, Yeah. filled in the ones you know. And the one you don't know is still there. So now you've got your equation. Yeah. That's m almost done the problem. All you've got to do now is a little bit of maths to Right. Two forty a hundred and twenty plus V times it by oh have to divide it by, so it would be er watts over voltage is er You do it, it doesn't matter which way, whether you do it Yeah, yeah that way or not, but it'll make it easier. . Okay. okay? So it's a half amp so what sized fu and they would probably give you erm, are you going to use a three amp, a five amp or a fif or a thirteen amp fuse? Yeah. And once you've worked it out, you can tell. Now that one sort of came out quite easily, some of them will come point eight amps, or two point Yeah. four amps or things like that so, but that's, that comes up quite a lot, that sort of thing. So you're okay on that you, you've got from thinking oh I'm stuck on the other, I've nowhere to start, Yeah. y I mean you know quite a lot about electrical things, practically Mm. you can, you can do them and you know what fuses to put in, you know what you're doing. So use that knowledge and bring it in don't keep it. Don't sort Yeah. of leave it outside on the exam and think ooh it's squiggles time now, I can't remember which squiggles go on top and which are on the bottom. Bring in Mm. your outside knowledge, use that and then you're not relying so much on, oh no I've got more and more formulae to learn, more things. You can work it out and you know if you get it, even if you're not sure of the original formula, if you get it upside down, you can look at it, this is no good. The more I increase the resistance, the more current is getting through, oh it Mm. must be the other way round, cos that's not right. Okay? So going back to the parallel, have you had any thoughts about it? Parallel Resistance in parallel. I honestly can't remember what it was. No, okay. Okay, okay. I can't, I can't forget about that for the mo I did know it. You did, cos you were doing Yeah. them very nicely. Erm what's the sort of real shape, it's not just you it's everyone sort of doing GCSEs at the moment, erm I'm getting this quite a lot. They say, oh I did about five examples of this, got them all right, no problems straight, but now I just haven't got a clue, don't know where to Yeah. start, what to do or anything so, you need a little bit of practice at doing them for, for revision and then it, it's not nearly as hard as when you first learnt, it pulls it out of your head again and then sort of puts it back in a bit more settled down and easier to retrieve. Erm I don't think I have got any written down here for you to have a look so I'll have to write it down for you erm stuff about Stanley knives. er chemistry, chemistry, chemistry and chemistry. One two three four chemistry books there,physics erm let's have a look if Ohm's Law's in, we can find anything about him. . No it hasn't got any Ohm's Law, it hasn't got much about electricity in that at all. Er have you got any notes on it, don't mean get them now, have you got notes on what you did on resistors in series and in parallel? Erm Yeah. I probably Okay. have somewhere. Okay. Buried in some Buried, buried. in piles of paper. Have you got your text books, with you? Yeah. So you can look it Yeah. up. Cos I don't, I don't want to do much of, I know you you want me to show you. Yeah. But I want to do so much of Yeah I, I even remember It, it's very se looking them up and Right. them and everything. Yeah. But I cannot remember. I remember the teacher showing me in school, as well, how to do it and I just, I can't remember So how to do it. when you find out, you must try and think of some way that y can make you to think of it. Have it like this. Say you've got erm I mean think of elec electrical wires,like pipes. Yeah. Okay and if we put perhaps a water tank here and the water's trying to get out and we've got these two big pipes, go through one big pipe and one little pipe. What we're trying to do is ref replace those three with another pipe. Now would it be bigger than. let's, let's look at it this way, erm with a small pipe so much water gets out, okay? Small pipe is offering a lot of resistance to the water so that's a sort of fairly high resistance. A bigger pipe, more water goes through offering less resistance. If someone said oh we don't want two pipes it's a bit messy, take them out and replace them by one that had the same resistance, that lets the same amount of water through, what would you replace those by? I mean would it be bigger or smaller or what? Just sort of talk about that. Er It's just water. if it was water and you wanted more to flow off? You want, want to get the same amount, I mean we've got a certain amount of water coming through that pipe, Yeah. and a certain amount coming through this pipe. Yeah. But someone says oh this is a bit messy having these two pipes, couldn't we just have one pipe that did exactly the same job. Now would it be a smaller pipe, a bigger pipe or what? Bigger, than both of them. It would be bigger than both of them. So it'd be perhaps a little bit bigger than this big one cos the small one wouldn't make a lot of difference so perhaps it would be that, that big, or something. Now a bigger pipe, has that got more resistance or less resistance? A bigger pipe has got m more resistance. It's, less. Less resistance. Yeah. Yeah. So so if we get two resistors and we put one there, say that's a hundred ohms. Mm. Mhm. And we put another one here, say fifty ohms. Right, this is low this is this is letting a lot through, this isn't letting so much through. If we replace them by, instead of those we're just going to have one resistor. What it's going to be like, roughly? I mean is it going to be a thousand ohms, two ohms or what? Just a guess, not, no calculations, no formula just sort of your common sense, what would you think about that? Now a hundred and fifty ohms, okay that's more resistance. That's letting less electricity through. Think of one at a time. Just cover up the hundred ohms, let's take it out of the circuit. Right, all the electricity is going through the fifty ohm. quite happy with that, running all their motors and stuff. And then somebody puts another piece of wire in, I'm not saying how much resistance it is, but somebody puts another piece of wire. Are you going to get more current going through or less? Mm more current. Right. You're going to get more, it's just as if we had just the big pipe from the Yeah. reservoir, and someone puts a little pipe on as well. Okay, you don't get much more but we're going to get more. Yeah. So you said here to replace the two pipes, the sort of medium pipe and the small pipe you'll have one that's a bit bigger than the big pipe. Yeah. We're doing the same thing here, we've got a, a low resistance letting a lot of current in, letting a lot of current go through. Mhm. And then somebody put another one in. Okay it's only a small pipe, it's got a high resistance, it doesn't let much through, but it does let some more through. Mm. So have another guess at what the resistance is going to be. Er In terms of sort of like er I haven't a hundred Right. and fifty ohms. A hundred and fif Oh! Fifty ohms, Right. Well a hundred and fifty means, a hundred and fifty is high resistance, not Yeah. much gets through. The problem with this, the, the, the problem where it's hard to see is cos we're dealing with an inverse. Yeah. As the resistance gets higher and higher the current goes down. But what we're doing is as the resistance gets lower we get more current through. So with fifty ohms we were getting a cer let's say with fifty ohms we were getting about ten amps going through. Mm. Right. Somebody puts another resistor, another, not a resistor, conductor cos it's going to let some more get through, no matter how much resistance it'll still let some get through. Yeah. So let's say now, when we put that one on as well we're getting eleven amps through. So it was ten amps with just the one, just the fifty ohm and now it, I mean this isn't right but just a, let's say that with both we're going to get about eleven amps. We haven't changed the voltage, we've got more current going through. So what's happened to the resistance? Erm Got Ohm's Law, current is equal to voltage over resistance, well we haven't changed voltage, we've kept that fixed. Yeah. But now we find that we've got more current going through. Well we know we've changed the resistance so did we make the resistance more or less? We've got more current going through now. We made it more. Less! Okay, it's on the bottom, so if we had ten times, we made it ten times as big then we don't get ten times the current we get one tenth. Yeah. This is the, the awkward bit, that it's all upside down. Yeah. It's an inverse relationship. So we put another wire on, don't think of it as resistance, think of it as a conductor, it's going to let some more current through. We've got so much going through the big wire, put another little wire on as well. Some more'll go through that. More current going through,changed the voltage, so it must mean the resistance has gone down. Resistance has increased, so have another guess, just a guess. Don't try and do any sums on it and think ooh I'll square one and add it on half the other. It was, it was without this hundred on it was fifty ohms. Yeah. We put an extra one on, what's it going to be now, roughly? Just a, you know, just a guess. Is it going to be more than a hundred? Or what? Less. I mean it's not going to be a hundred and fifty, because a hundred and fifty is It's going to be less than fifty. That's it. So that's it, that's, that's more or less, that's the end of your analysis now. Yeah? You've worked out what happens, it's going to be less. Whatever the resistance of this comes to it's going to be less than fifty ohms. Yeah. Okay? Erm if it's more, well this is ridiculous because we were getting, that means getting some more current going through there has sort of changed everything else, so it's going to be less than fifty ohms. Well then if you weren't sure of your formula, if you tried the formula, who's been doing that? Right. S Er oh yeah I forgot to ask you. Would you like a drink, soft drink? I I can't really make coffee because no one else is here and it'll waste a lot of time. Right, erm no thanks I'm fine. Yeah. I had a coffee. You have one though if you want. No it's okay. I had one just before I came out, Yeah. so I'm alright. So we could try different things, there's this one over it comes in somewhere doesn't it? Yeah. So let's try one over resistance equals one over R one plus one over R two. Why does this, do you know what one over resistance is by the way? Erm it's one divided by resistance. Have you heard of conductance? No. Well if we were, you, you've got the lawnmower outside, a sort of electric Flymo or something, and you want to get some current out there to it, to run it. Erm you don't get a piece of string, Yeah. what would you get? An extension, An and copper is a good Conductor. So you look for a conductor It's a conductor. I mean if you were being really dangerous and you wanted to die soon you could just sort of get a piece of bare wire and Mm. run it out there and run it off that until it touched something. So you're looking for a conductor. A conductor is something that electricity goes along and there's a properties of metals called its conductance and it was, it, we might, might be better thinking of, thinking of its, its conductance. So if you think of pipe as how much water it can conduct. Yeah. This one say can conduct two gallons a minute. Right? And this one can conduct twenty gallons a minute. Yeah. Right. So how much will th if you want to replace them by one pipe how much will this pipe have? Twenty two gallons a minute. Twenty two gallons a minute. This is the pipe's conductance, if you like. Mhm. So we just add them together. Well this is conductance, the inverse, one over resistance is conductance. So the conductance of this circuit is equal to the conductance of that bit plus the conductance of that. So it's just going to come to one over fifty plus one over a hundred. Okay? What does that come to? Erm one over fifty plus one over a hundred is er one, two over a hundred and fifty. Oh got to find So that's Three over two hundred. Three over what? One hundred? Yeah. Yeah. Okay? So let's think of that as, okay. Two over a hundred plus one over a hundred,. So the conductance is one over R is equal to that Yeah. Right? Which comes to, so one over the resistance is that so the resistance is turn it upside down, a hundred over three. What does that come to roughly? Er three, thirty three? Around about thirty three ohms. Does that Thirty three and one third. Yeah, excellent. Point three recurring. Thirty three and a third is better actually. A nicer way of putting it. Thirty three and a third ohms, does that sound about right? Yeah that looks about the right sort of thing, cos it was fifty ohms and we've put, I mean it's not that much small you know it's not going to let, it should let about half as much through as that lets through this shouldn't it? Yeah. So if this was letting, if this was letting ten amps through then this one should let about five amps through. Yeah. Yeah. Does that seem reasonable to you? If Yeah. fifty ohms lets ten amps go through then a hundred ohms will let half as much, it'll, will let five amps go through. So we've got the circuit like that originally, ten amps going through it. Put this one on and s oh we get another five amps through there. So altogether we'll have fifteen amps and the resistance is now two thirds of what it was. Yeah. Two thirds of fifty. So we're just adding the conductances again, and if we did it with three of, we had sort of three pipes Mhm. and say well think of the conductance, don't think of it as resisting and stopping the water, how much can it get along and get through? How much can it conduct through? Conductance, one over resistance is equal to R one plus one over R two plus one over R three. as many as you like, keep putting lots and lots and lots of extra wires on. So with that you should be able to do that problem yourself. Now what I want you to do is not look at that. I'll leave it with you but don't look at it. Just try and remember what we were doing but the pig about resistance is it's one over and think ooh we're all into weird fractions and everything seems to work the opposite way round to the way you'd expect it. So get out of that, change your model, change your way of looking at it. Don't think of it as something resisting electricity, think of it as conducting, helping it along. Erm you know a lot about electricity, if I'm going to use this little thin wire. Yeah. And I'm going to say right, I'm going to run my fan heater off that, what would you say? You're mental. It's not going to conduct enough, you want a better conductor. You want a big foot thick copper conductor, that'll get a lot of it through. Get something with a good conductance, not something with a high resistance but something with a high conductance. So if you use that and just have a look at this problem here. Find out what's the current through the twelve ohm resistor, through in fact through each resistor. Mhm. Okay? Is that all right, it's very scrappy Yeah. you can see what we mean there. You've got two six ohms, a twelve ohm and a ten ohm, and twelve volts there, so the first thing. What's, how, how're you going to go about the problems, sort of talk through the stages. Right I'll work out the current I'll work out the resistance Right. the combined resistance of these and then I will add it to this resistance. Okay. I'll work out the total current flowing through the whole erm circuit then I'll work out the current through in through each of this here. Okay. And whatever w the current, what the current is when it leaves. Right. You can work out Er you can work out the current through this one, pretty easily, when you work the Yeah. total resistance. So that's not going to be much problem. Erm work out what the current is when it leaves. Mm. Well think of this as a sort of water pipe system if you like. six ohm pipes. And there's a twelve ohm which is a thinner one because it doesn't let as much go through. Okay? Here's some sort of strange manifold, okay? And water comes in there, goes out there and then again out of the, another manifold again. Yeah. And then it goes into another pipe. goes into this other resistor here, where it goes and then it flows round again. So what happens to the water that comes in here? It gets split up and then goes, most goes Split up three ways. that way. Right. A little goes that way and then a very small amount goes that way. Right. So a lot of it's going to go through the big pipe and then what happens to it when it's come through the, the, these three pipes? It pushes It joins up again. And here's the other resistance. So you were saying about finding out how much current goes through Er yeah. So what, hmm the water comes in here. Let's say the water comes in here at sort of ten gallons a minute. What rate does it come out of the end here? Ten gallons a minute. Right. Pick any point, there say,or here Mm. or there. How much water's flowing past in a minute? Ten gallons a minute. Right. When it splits up and goes its separate ways we're not getting ten gallons a minute through that pipe or through that or Yeah. through that but in total we are. So it's the same water going all the way round, it's the same current going all the way through here, so if we've got ten gallons a minute of electricity coming in there, say ten amps, Yeah. yeah? It splits up, some of it will go there, there, there, as you say the least of it will go down this high resistance. Then it all joins up again and goes back in, goes along here, so everything that goes down there, the ten amps goes through this one again, and back into the battery. We'll close this switch cos otherwise it's a very simple answer. What's the current in there? Non cos the switch is open. Does that help you to sort of understand it better? Yeah. What, what's happening? Think of it, this as water analogy. It's all flowing round, it all starts off here, it all gets round and gets back again, the battery's like a pump, pumping it all round. Resistors are like pipes, if you work with a resistance it's always one over so forget about resistance, deal with conductance. I mean you still write one over resistance but don't think of the resistance part of it, think of the new one over as a separate entity. This is, this is how big your pipe is. Right. A big one over R is a big conductance. Big pipe big diameter pipe. It lets a lot through. So I think you can sort that out, pretty easily now. a factor tree on the back as well. As I say, don't be tempted to have a quick glance at that before you start the problem. Try and Yeah. just leave that unless you are totally stuck, and I don't mean sort of five minutes, have a good sort of maybe ten minutes or say about ten minutes of playing with this. Don't just think oh I don't know this, oh I can't do that, I don't know what the formulae are. Work out what you do know. Like on this one, you didn't know what the resistance was exactly, but you worked it out, well it's going to be less than, your first thought was add it together of course. A Yeah. hundred and fifty. That's because you, you want to, everyone does, you want to think in terms of conductances, so it's hard to get over this problem, so don't get over it. Think of conductances, every time you think of conductance just write one over R. Erm so I think you can do, do it without working but if you need to it's there, so I'll leave that. And I think you need to do a bit of revision on the firm basic Yeah. stuff there. that stopped? You're going very slowly, I'll these batteries there's the problem, there's little diagram to sort of think about it in terms of water. Mhm. And there's, there's the answer, but don't look at that if you can. I won't. Okay, I mean it's up to you but Yeah. it's, I'm just trying to help It helps I'm not trying to make it hard for you, I'm trying to work out what is useful for you, cos it's no good you just sort of more or less copying it out. Energy now. Erm power er different types of energy, how many have we got? Different types of energy? Er er chemical. Okay. Erm kinetic energy, potential energy er electrical energy Okay. Just finishing off on electrical energy. How do you pay for the electrical energy that you use? How many kilowatts you've used . kilowatts. Mm. You turn, you turn a three bar electric fire on, say. A big fan Mm. heater. That's a three kilowatt heater erm so you've turned your kilow three kilowatt heater on for an hour and I'm gonna charge you,le let's say, thirty pence. Okay? Mm. Charge, you've turned it on for ten hours, how much will I charge you? Three pound. Yeah, why? It's right, why? Cos it were using more It using it's us using it at the same rate but it's going for a longer time. Yeah. So you don't just pay for kilowatts that you use, what do you pay for? Erm Erm you know it cos you've just told me the Yeah. answer. You've just told me exac this is what you did. Mm. I said three kilowatts. Yeah. And it's running for ten hours. Mhm. You multiplied them together. Yeah. Didn't you? Kilowatts Per hour. times hours, it's not per hour. kilowatt hours. Kilowatt hours. Mm. Okay? And that's what we pay for and that's, when you want to work out how much a fan heater uses and you know, how long was it on for? If you just flick it on and off it's going to use very little. Leave it on for a year you'll get a bill. Mm. So the energy is kilowatt hours. Kilowatts is not energy, it's the rate at which you're using energy, how quickly is this electrical appliance burning up electricity? Erm three kilowatt heater it's really sort of running away with electricity. Erm a light bulb is not using much electricity in a given time. But if you leave a light bulb on for a year, it'll cost you more than leaving the fan heater on for an hour. Yeah. So it's how quickly is it using electricity and how long did you leave it on for? So kilowatts is, is what? What, what are, what are kilowatts a measure of? Er thousand watts. Right a kilowatts is a thousand watts and what is it measuring? erm watts is erm er It's an awkward one, Mm. And it's one that needs sort of a bit of thinking about, and again tie it back to the everyday things that you know quite a lot about, electrical appliances, things like that. It's how much energy it uses, er Yeah. How much e energy it uses Carry on. It's which ra how m it's the rate at which it uses The rate, that's it. voltage. The rate at which it uses energy, it's the rate at which it's using the energy. So a three kilowatt fire is using it at a terrific rate, it's running away with electricity. A er twenty five watt lamp in the fridge is using it at a very low rate, it's hardly using any electricity. . So to work out how much energy you're using is, how quickly am I using up energy, well I'm using it at a rate of ten kilowatts. Right, so that's a lot of kilowatts is energy per second or energy per hour if you like. Kilowatts, watts, energy per hour. Watts is actually energy per second but if we think of it in terms of hours cos we've bought by, by, by hours. So to find out how much you pay for, how much actual energy has been used up, you think it, again going back to the water, if we have a big tank full of water and we're using it up, this time in terms of power, erm if we have something that's using up water at the rate of say six gallons a minute and someone's going to charge you for your water. Well let's say you've got a, a water meter, okay? Water meter, have you got a water meter here? Don't think so. Let's say your wa your water is metered and erm you've got a, a washing machine using six gallons per minute. Right, you've got a garden hose running off your mains as well using, say,twe I don't know how much it uses twenty gallons a minute, something like that. Yeah. Right. Erm if they're going to charge you for your water by how much you use, they don't just charge you twenty when you've got your hose running. They say well how many minutes did you have it running? Right, so it's twenty gallons per minute times, let's say you've got it going for ten minutes, ten mins and the per minutes and the minutes cancel out and the answer comes in gallons then. Yeah. You've used twenty gallons, that's how they find out how much you've used. It's very similar Let's say we've got things called el let's say they're electrons. Right? I mean they're not but let's say they b big packets of lots of electrons so we're using things at erm let's say watts is equal to so many electrons per second. Yeah. And erm well let's, let's, let's just say a hundred watts is a hundred electrons per second. And you wouldn't get a lot of heating out of a hundred electrons. So, and they charge you for how many electrons you use. And we've got this hundred watt thing running for twenty seconds, so oh say for oh fifty be sixty, for a minute, sixty seconds. So, how much, how many electrons get through? How many are you going to get charged for? You're going to get charged for the amount going through will be a hundred electrons per second times sixty seconds. Yeah. Seconds cancel out and you're going to get six thousand electrons. So six thousand electrons will go through and that's what they'll charge you for. Okay? Mhm. And when they, when they define watts and kilowatts and everything else in terms of energy that you can understand, like erm horsepower. Erm have you ever seen a moped with a plate on it? Erm ninety, ninety kilowatts. Something like that. You know cars are rated in horsepower, normally? Yeah. Yeah. They can also be rated in kilowatts and on mopeds cos the regulation allow sort of what mopeds sixteen year olds can ride and I think it's sort of something like seventy kilowatts or ninety kilowatts, it might be ninety. They actually give its power in kilowatts, so there's this obvious equivalence between electrical and mechanical energy, so watts is not an amount of electricity it's a rate of using it up, it's a flow rate like gallons per minute. Yeah. Three kilowatt heater. That's three thousand gallons a minute of electricity going through that if you like. A hundred watt light bulb has only a hundred gallons a minute going through, okay? It's a very Mhm. similar thing. It's a, it's a flow rate, it's rate of using up electricity, watts. So to find out how much you've used, you've got to multiply it by how long you've been using it for. And the electricity people charge you for kilowatt hours. Kilowatts, rate of using it up, times how many hours you've used it. Okay? Your hose pipe twenty gallons a minute, well you ran that for ten minutes say, so that was two hundred gallons we're going to charge you for there, and your six gallons a minute appliance here, you ran that for forty minutes, right? That's a gallon per minute times forty minutes then cancel with gallons so they're going to charge you for two hundred and forty gallons. And that's, that's that's how your electricity was paying for it. It's a, it's an awkward thing to understand this, power and energy, energy is the lumps of the stuff itself. The gallons of water, the number of electrons. But erm power is the rate at which it's being used up. Horsepower is the rate at which energy is being produced or absorbed, usually being produced. Kilowatts, the rate at which . Erm now, moving on to other energy. Physical bit more easy to get to grips with the physical stuff Yeah. Erm still got power as a rate of doing work. Car engine rated at fifty horsepower Yeah. or a hundred horsepower. How much energy would it use up? Well it depends on how long you run it. I mean, you can have a an X J six running for ten seconds and it uses hardly any petrol. Mm. Little mini and run it for a year, run the engine ru non stop for a year and it's going to use quite a few gallons. So the horsepower isn't actually telling you how much energy in total but the rate at which it's being used up. . Erm now what about kinetic and all the other different types of energy? Er kinetic, potential, chemical How would you convert erm potential energy into kinetic energy? In a machine. In a machine, potential energy is something erm potential energy is energy something possesses due to its position. Good. State. That's an excellent definition. That's a sort of strict textbook definition, that, that's brilliant. Er kinetic energy is the energy something possesses due to it's er movement Okay. That's it. That's excellent, textbook definition again. So potential is when it hasn't done anything yet, it's stored up ready for us to. So so some examples of potential energy. Erm say you've got a stone on top a cliff. Okay. And the that possesses be potential energy. Er possesses potential energy So anything that can fall down and go faster as it falls. Yeah. Erm any other form of potential energy? N yeah. Er if you've str if you've got trying to think, er can't think of anything, Erm how do you start a car? with a car battery. Okay. So a car battery has stored up energy. How'd it, go through the whole process of how, of erm running a car. Starting it every morning. You get in your car and you start it every morning, you run around and come back, you start it again. When you start the engine the battery store you, the battery which stores electrical energy Mm. by chemical reactions. Good. Erm when you start it you're closing a switch which star which starts the starter motor turning. Right. That in turn cranks the engine over and Okay. the engine fires and the starter motor then turns off. Right. Then, because the battery's used up energy the motor of the car turns the alternator Right. which puts electricity which recharges the battery. Right. Puts electricity back into it. And then when you turn the engine off your battery's full and restored and you got to start it Good. etcetera etcetera. Now, do you think, not now, but for sort of maybe for next time, or some time very soon, a little diagram, a little sort of flow chart if you like showing where, how the energy is changing from one form into another. Sort of where it's coming from, so we've got chemical energy. What types of chemical energy have we got in the system you've, you've juts been talking about? Erm got chemical energy, electrical energy Okay, what types of chemical energy? Oh, the battery. So the battery And the engine where the Right. petrol we're burning. And the fuel for the engine. That's, now that fuel is producing energy. Yeah. Does your battery produce energy? Erm it stores it, it doesn't produ Good. Excellent, it just store any, it stores energy, it doesn't make any itself and that's the point that they want you to make erm normal little throw away batteries that you have in your tape recorder or something, they produce energy,they don't have energy sort of put into them, chemicals and things. But they produce energy and then they get clogged up, they sort of get blocked so they can't Mm. produce any more, then you throw them away. But a car battery it stores up the energy so, okay, that produces energy, the fuel, erm what other types of energy have we got now? Er potential energy and kinetic energy of the vehicle. In the, in the c this car system that Oh. you've just been describing. Oh, right. Erm there's e electrical. So electrical, erm what systems have you got there? System erm What does the there's the alternator. So what does the alternator do? Er produces electricity. Or converts it. So it gets, electricity comes out. What goes into it? Er What sort of energy? Physical energy. What sort of physical energy? Er erm the engine turning Right. Is it moving? Yeah it's, it's circular er oh d you don't have to be that specific, you'd, really you'd want to know is it erm It's physical. is it fixed, is it sitting there doing nothing or is it moving? Cos if it's Moving. moving it's kinetic. Kinetic. Okay. So you've got kinetic energy going into the alternator and producing electricity. What happens with the starter? Er that uses up ele converts electricity into kinetic energy. Electricity coming in,going out, okay. So that's a, then you've got the other , you've got the, the . What's happening there, you've got, fuel's making the engine go round. So using little things like that, so just a little box to show this is the alternator, that's the energy for, this is the battery and this is the fuel. Draw a diagram with, it doesn't have to be neat just sort of scrawl all over it and tat it until you get it to Yeah. the way you want it. And then you just draw it out again so that someone could look at it and they could see the energy changes in front. Yeah. Starting up in the morning, the first thing you get in the car, start up, drive around, come back and park it. And what's happened to the energy? The energy changes? Have you lost any energy? What happens when you're driving along? Erm what happens when you're driving along? Er Where does the energy come from? The petrol, So the big the thing that's providing everything, you take the petrol out, you won't go unless you're at the top of a hill, of course because it can Yeah. roll down. So this primary source is your fuel. Think about things when you go up and down hill. Okay? Why, what makes you use more fuel? Erm If you've got a lot of petrol and you're just like wasting it and you think oh, I'm going to use a lot more fuel in my driving today, what would you do? Erm Apart from keeping it Yeah. Erm drive up lots of hills and Drive up hill, Yeah. so up a hill all day, you can use a lot more Right. Extra resistance. Where would your extra resistance come from? Okay you could drive with the hand brake on but you don't normally do that. Erm Where do let pressure out of the tyres. Right. So there's, there's some resistance from Air resistance on the car. Right. So if you want to really use petrol you know drive along the motorway Drive a Range Rover. and just, yeah. Drive a Range Rover at about a hundred and ten along the motorway, you Yeah. fuel. Yeah you can I can see it sometimes. see it on that Transit you used to run, as I'm going along I can see it's going down. Can't actually see it move but I can see it if I look If you look at it every ten minutes you notice it's Yeah. moved a little. Yeah. So air resistance is er is the big one. Once you get up to speed that's, you're, it's like running through, have you tried running through water? Yeah. Yeah, it's like that. Erm and your tyres, as you said the resistance ro and lots of resistance in all the, the bearings. Yeah. All the moving parts, I mean your wheel hubs get hot. Yeah. Erm your brakes every, what, what happens when you brake? It's friction, brake pads squeeze the brake disk or Yeah. brakes pads push out on the brake drum. Mm. And what happens to the drum? Gets hot. Right. If you've just come down a hill with your brakes on, Yeah. touch those and burn your hand. So you got all this energy, this kinetic energy, when you're going downhill. Yeah. You don't want it you've got to get rid of it somewhere so you turn it to heat, and there's, every time you , whenever you're braking you're turning some of your kinetic into heat. So there are lots of erm this is something that you know quite a bit about. Mhm. It's just looking at it in a slightly different way and trying, I've done some things there to show you a, a sort of a system to use, use your own if you like but I want to see what comes in, what goes out, every time energy changes from one form into another form. And I mean think of say rolling back in traffic if you're waiting on a hill. If you take your handbrake off and you're not quite ready to move off, what happens? Your potential energy starts changing into kinetic and you roll back. So as many examples as you can think of, of driving, where energy changes from one sort to another er where your energy is going, what's using it up, where it's coming from. Erm Yeah. because they do, I mean they're not, they're not going to ask you that as a question. could do, I mean if I was setting the exam I probably would,sort of, you know people know roughly about, I mean they're all going to drive cars one car. so I think you could almost enjoy doing a little diagram like that, couldn't you? Yeah. And you'll keep thinking of extra little bits he ah there's another bit can go in there. So your diagram will get very messy, it doesn't have to all fit together, as long as you can get all the main points of what's happening. Erm have you heard of a fellow called Newton and his three laws? Yeah. Are you remembering them? No. Hmm. Erm you know them? Yeah. You know his laws in parc you know sort of in practice, but we'll, we'll sit here and watch that pen until it suddenly jumps off the table. It's not going to. It's, it's not going to, it's just, it'll just stay there. Why? Why does, why is this book just sitting on the table not going anywhere? Er cos that's stopping it. Yeah, the table's stopping, yeah. It's the normal state of things,just sitting there doing nothing. Erm Right. that's his first law. That if something suddenly, you know jumps up. Yeah. Something's done something to it, it didn't just Yeah. suddenly decide to jump up. If nothi if you, you don't have an external force acting on something it just to remain stationary or, or carry on in a straight line and fixed speed, if . Erm and the second law you've heard of force equals mass times acceleration? Yeah. now okay,explain it to me in terms of, try and ex say if you were explaining it to someone who sort of wasn't very technical. Mm. Erm Force erm is equal to mass times acceleration . Erm force is some, is the power at which, with which something possesses so if something, if you drop a pen on hand Okay. when it hits you what you're feeling is the force of Right. the pen falling. Right. If you drop say that heavy ornament on top. Right. What hits you is the force of it, moving. Right. So that's a a short sharp force. Yeah. Right. They're quite awkward to deal with. Yeah. Erm can you think of any steady forces? Er say I place it on my hand. Right. now here, it's pushing down me. pushing down. And Newton's third law says, that your hand must be pushing up on it. With exact just enough to balance its weight. Yeah. Cos otherwise it's be going down. Yeah. Okay, so if you turned your hand over the other way. And then lift it up a bit off the table. Now if you try not to hold it quite so mu so much it'll push you down a bit. If you're lifting it up too much it goes up. Yeah. So make it go, you push upwards with a Yeah. force that's more than its weight. To let it come down, you push upwards but not enough force to hold up its weight. So it's coming down a bit. So his three laws, first one is everything just sits there doing nothing unless there's some good reason, basically. Yeah. The hard part of that is something going in a straight line, and the same speed has no force, no resultant forces acting on it. Erm if you think of something, say a puck on ice. Give it a flick it'll go for a long way because there's no, there's very little friction on the ice and erm the second one is the, the awkward one. Force is mass times acceleration. The third one is the, this book is pushing down on the table and the table is pushing up on the book. And Yeah. the action and reaction are equal. If the table was, I mean we've got to get the . If we get a car engine Yeah. and put it on the edge of the table, what's going to happen? The table can't push up Yeah. with enough force to stop the engine. Mm. So the engine will just sort of push the table down. Erm so the, if you're just sitting there doing nothing, they're balanced. And the middle one, force is mass times acceleration erm I'm going to give this a push, I'll give this pen a push,accelerate. Going to give the table a push that was as hard as I pushed the pen and Mm. Well you see give your chair a push. Can you feel that? Hardly feel it, that's as much as I would, this is a very low mass, it's quite small. You know come and, come and give my Mini a push, okay, come and give my camper a push. Mm Mm. maybe. Come and give my bus a push. Or, or Get lost my yeah or my petrol tanker, full. Yeah. No, No. I don't think so. Right so, someone on a bike, you've got a mate on a pushbike and you're starting a race and you give him a shove. Yeah. It really helps, it's, you know, a massive starts him. Gets him going. But erm somebody in a tank, give us a push. no thanks, it's . Because the mass is so high the same force will have very little effect on . If the mass is very very low, you get a very light little ping pong ball, give it a flick. It'll really go. You want to try and flick that,see if I can knock that little, one of those brass pigs, flick it and see if I knock it across the table, I'll take my own finger off, the pig'll hardly move. So that's a sort, some understanding of mass times acceleration. The force is mass times acceleration. Erm can you think of any applications of that? Erm mass times acceleration. Erm yeah, when er rather than saying that something is a heavy mass and it move and it's got a good acceleration you can just say it's got good . No I can't think of anything. Think if you put erm a go-kart engine Yeah. in a petrol tanker. It wouldn't get anywhere. Erm it produces a certain amount of, it can produce a maximum of torque, a certain amount of force a go-kart engine. It's enough, a light go-kart and a, a person on it Yeah. it'll zip about. Yeah. If you try to make that drag petrol tanker about, if you've got a suitable gearbox Yeah, So your engine's doing about four thousand revs and it's geared down like mad and your tanker is just creeping so you can hardly see Yeah. the w the wheels move, yeah it could, you could move it. If it Yeah. Take a long time. if it didn't lose a, you know, Yeah. a lot of friction in the gearbox and things like that. But you could get that tanker gradually creeping along and moving. The same force when it's applied to l look at this another way, what's the acceleration? Yeah. F equals M A. Divide both sides by M so the acceleration, this is a bit like our Ohm's Law thing, let's keep the mass the same, we're dealing with say a Mini, we're not going to change that. Yeah. Erm we give it a bigger force, what happens to the acceleration? Erm it goes up. Bigger force, bigger acceleration. Well that's Yeah. good, that ties in with, you know, what we know actually happens in real life. Now let's keep the force the same, say we've got a Mini engine providing us, just running it steady at three thousand R P M. Pushing out the same amount of force, keep the force the same, this time we put a smaller mass, we've got a Mini engine and you've put it on your pushbike. Yeah. Neeow, we'll get a much, what will be the acceleration, will it be bigger or smaller,get more acceleration or less? Erm more. Yeah. So because the mass is smaller we get more acceleration. Now if we make the mass bigger, put the same engine in a tanker, acceleration would be very small. So it's sometime useful to think of it that way round, Newton's third law, rather than force is mass times acceleration,you're interested in the effect, now what did we get for this, what sort of acceleration do we get. What, we want big acceleration and we put a big force. Also if we want big acceleration we use a small mass. Yeah. Bigger the acceleration that you're very very light object. or something like that. Erm Newton's three laws come up erm and particularly that one, you questions Mm. on that. Erm so his first one is about equilibrium. no resultant force, no net force,all forces balance. All forces are balanced. Right . All forces are balanced and, so no net force. You can have forces but they all balance out. And it will, either be at rest or in a straight line. And a steady speed. That's the bit that people fe find a bit hard to er to accept because in the real world it doesn't actually happen because there's always some other force like air resistance, friction, road resistance from your tyres and, and it grad it always stops eventually. But if it's in space, you're in a spaceship and then you throw your pen out through the window. airlock Yeah. preferably. It just keeps going, there's nothing else Yeah. It's away from all the other planets and things, it'll just keep moving. Er steady speed, straight line. And that's, those three laws, that's what the whole of dynamics is built on. The whole of the study of sort of moving things and statics, things like ladders leaning up against a wall, it's okay, it's interesting. What would happen there? Just lean a ladder against a wall and start walking up it. Er Why doesn why doesn't it slide straight away? When you le when you leave the ladder up wall? Because your force isn't worth as much when you're there. When you're there it's erm it's liking more like a . more like a . What's stopping the bottom of the ladder from . Which way is it acting? The force is pushing that that way,that way. So What do you mean by the force? The mass Okay. Right. is Right. So what way is the frictional force acting on the bottom of the ladder? It's acting on the floor, on the base of the ladder. Stopping it getting pushed. So which direction That way. is it ? That way. Is it? Oh the frictional force, that way. Right, yeah, that's very common. Yeah. Marking the forces on going that way, the easy way to think of it is well what have you got to do to the bottom of the ladder to stop it from, put a piece of rope on here, right? Put a piece of rope and, and stand on the end of it and pull. And I've got to pull the of ladder in. So there must be a frictional force here, pulling the bottom of the ladder in. What's the top of the ladder trying to do? It's trying to slide down the wall, so there must be something pulling it up the wall, frictional force Yeah. If you put the bottom on wheel, put some wheels on the bottom of the ladder so it couldn't fall because of the bottom, then it would still stay there because on the floor would be the bit of grip from the top. Not nearly Mm. as good as the frictional force you get on the bottom. But you do get some from the top. And if I take the book away, and so the pen is trying to push the book over. Yeah. And the book is pushing back and the pen pushing on each other, so pushing out that way. Yeah. And it's, this is what the wall's doing, it's the normal reaction frictional force, keeping the, holding the ladder up, stopping it from sliding down. There's a frictional force There's a different reaction. A vertical reaction, and the horizontal . Okay? These are interesting if you're building bridges, but when it gets really interesting is when things start moving. When things start moving,F equals M A crops up all over the place. And it's very important so they always ask questions about it. The understanding of it is that . Acceleration, increase your force, what happens to acceleration? Erm goes up. Increase the mass, but keep your force the same, what happens to acceleration? Goes down . So mass if you like, is a bit like the way resistance was in the electric. Yeah? Yeah. If you increase it erm then it's, it's slowly go bogs everything down if you like increase the resistance, you bog everything down. So mass is a sort of a bit like resistance, it's resistance to acceleration. Erm this piece of paper hasn't got much ac resistance to acceleration. You can accelerate it very easily. Er this house has got tremendous resistance to acceleration. If I run Mm. at it and oh give it a good shove, I'm not gonna Yeah. I mean okay the brick might move a tiny bit. Yeah. But I'm not going to suddenly send this off into orbit, with a small force. So that's how that works. Erm I'm trying to tie things together a bit as you noticed, Yeah. at the moment so that you can Relating you're not feeling that you've got lots of little isolated subjects and lots of little isolated topics and it's all building up and it's all a lot it is a lot, Can I just answer the phone? it is a lot, but they're all part of the same thing. Yeah. So how are you, how are you getting on with your revision? Erm to be honest the revision getting a bit neglected it's, we've done most of our coursework, in most subjects there's coursework which in some subjects which has to be, not, doesn't have to be done before the exam but it's preparation, preparation work for the exams. There's art coursework, there's a big economics project, Okay. there and there's C D T because for C D T you have to do four sheets which you take into the exam. And you use the information off that. So You will have some projects that can keep but Yeah. if you do them before the exam the Yeah. stuff that you learn for them is even better then the revision Yeah. it comes in and it's very, it's very useful. Erm Or to do the projects you're looking up things. Right. What projects, have you got any science projects that're not finished? No science They're all, all in. The good thing about the science was it was all in school, practical work. Write up. Mostly. All your experiments are written up and Yeah. handed in? Erm what about your maths, have you got any outstanding projects there? No. They're all in and done? Yeah. That's good. English as well, it's, really it's just the Oh that's good. So you're really Yeah, it's I mean you've co I mean a long, you know not that long ago, you were sort of tending to put it off a lot. Yeah. Erm you've got you've got to It's just the, the economic, art and the C D T which, it's not my fault it's just everybody's in the same position, it's the, the teachers have tended to say, well you're not ready to do it yet or, we've just got to finish the rest of this book. By the time we've finished the book, bang we're on top of the Easter holidays. Okay so get, yeah get, get those projects in. Erm I would, I think it would be very useful if you could make time in the next day or so, you don't have to spend long on this you know, if you just spent sort of Yeah, it's just looking at it. spent half an hour maximum, maybe twenty minutes would be, all it would take you just to do that one problem, while it's reasonably fresh in your mind. Then you can forget it and the next time you come to do it, maybe in a month's time or er you've I remember now, the water pipes, don't give it resistance, think of conductance, think of one over,think of conductance. This pipe conducts so, so many gallons, that so many gallons. Conductance one equals conductance plus conductance three plus conductance four mm and so on. And then wherever you've got rid of conductance think well they haven't given me that, they've given me resistance, oh I had to write one over resistance turning it into conductance. Erm it's a big course, science, but a lot of it and erm quite a, I mean the chemistry alone or the physics alone Yeah. or the, even the I think somebody said it's mad the way they try and Yeah. I think, yeah, it was my dad said, that the way they try to do combined science it's like doing a combined maths and English paper. Yeah. They're all so different. It's Yeah. madness. It er I don't think a lot of the curriculum at the moment and erm you, you ask most teachers and they just say, grrr, forget that you know ? I think what he should have done Ooh you've got to take two sciences, you pick which two sciences you're going to take, it'd be easier for the teachers and he would, well to do all three sciences in one exam is It's erm, it's a mess really the way I mean you might as well be doing art, physics and chemistry, than biology, physics and chemistry. Yeah. I think it's I mean there is some overlap between biology I mean if anything, the physics should go in with the maths exam, rather than chemistry and biology. Big overlap on, especially on stuff like this about the dynamics erm don't forget that sort of first sheet I gave you a long time ago about Yeah. Erm so many people throw marks away because they don't put thing down things that are obvious. What's, tell me what are the properties of hydrogen? Er it's a gas. Right, Er it's flammable. Right. Er it's got one, it's Right okay, good. one One electron. Yeah, you're getting now into the deep chemical Yeah. properties of it. Good, excellent that you know them. Yeah. But It's a gas. go for the really obvious physical properties first, and if you have a little checklist that you go through, bang bang bang for each one, Doesn't smell and you can't see it. Right, right. Now the especially if it is colourless or if it hasn't got a smell, you think ooh I'm not putting that down. Yeah. Right. . What's hydrogen? It's a gas. What colour is it? I don't know, I think it's colourless,well no good putting that down. If it was yellow with sort of pink spots, that'd be worth putting down. Mm. So, so many people leave it out. And you know losing marks when you describe properties. If you don't know the chemical properties, you you might think oh I, zinc carbonate, describe zinc carbonate. Have a go. Oh zinc carbonate. It's a powder. Right, okay, it's going to be a solid, probably a powder. You get erm doesn't burn. Probably doesn't burn. Right. Erm soluble in water, er May or may not be soluble. Don't think it would smell. Probably does not smell. And then you get on to the chemical properties of it. What happens with all carbonates? What the property of all carbonates? Say I've got some powder there that . Look at this, zinc carbonate, or zinc sulphate. I'd like you to just do a quick chemical test and let me know if that was a carbonate. Erm . Oh I can't remember. You've got some acid handy, some H C Oh. L. Oh . I can't erm er when you mix it with the acid, er it produces a water , no that's er hydrogen and oxygen. Go, yeah. They all produce water and salt. And salt. A carbonate produces something else as well. Erm hydrogen, a gas, er car carbon dioxide. Right. And And that makes lime water which Right, okay. This is where we had some sort of car this is just looking at hardness of water actually, but this is, you've got the C O three Yeah. in there and that's where we're going to get our C O two from, leaving the O. Who cares what happens to that, you get, you know, a different looking powder left. Well we'll get carbon dioxide off,so you might be iridium carbonate or ytterbium, we've got a powder which may be ytterbium car carbonate or ytterbium sulphate and you never heard of this stuff, ah carbonate carbonate and maybe, maybe ytterbium carbonate doesn't give off carbon dioxide with acid, but there is a very good chance it does cos all the others you've ever heard about do. So just go for that I mean you see you're looking for the pattern, you can't know ninety odd elements and what the carbonate of every one does, what the sulphate of every one, what the nitrate of each one, bicarbonate, hydrogen carbonate of each one. You can't learn all that lot. You just learn general patterns. Maybe if there are a few very obvious exceptions, you learns those as well. Yeah. Erm you know pi stuff in your head full of more and more facts and more and more equations and more and more you know Hooke's Law and Ohm's Law, Avogadro's everybody else Every little had a law and a name and a theory. Yeah. Erm so you just stick them together. So that's something that only you can do really, that you, gather up the information, it's like, it's like having all your information in say a room this size. And it's chucked in bits of pa on bits, different scraps of paper and it's all on the floor. about finished has it? Chucked all over the place. Right? And want to find something you've got to root through everything else, you've got to move everything else and then when you want to come and find something else, you've moved it. Something else, you can't. Yeah. So you've got a lot of stuff up in your head, you might, oh you've got a terrible r memory, you can't remember anything, think of it, the thing is you can remember phone numbers and people's names, how to get to school, Yeah. erm people you've met, faces and voices you can recognize. stuff up in your head. Mm. It needs organizing occasionally, maybe in the holiday is a good time to try and do it. While you're doing your projects, sort of practise organizing your files for your projects and don't l don't, I think you can spend, you're good at finding excuses for yourself, I do the same thing. I'm Mm. not, I'm not now, I've got over it. But in a stage of my life I used to do the same thing a lot. I'll do my sort of chemistry revision tomorrow,right well I'll sort all this out into these files, I'm going to put all my acids together in that one. And by the time you've done that Oh well it's too late now, right well Yeah. I'll do it tomorrow. But at least I got this file sorted out. Erm don't get into that. you know I to that. Yeah. Well you know the dangers probably better than I do but er you need a, you need a good bit of organization but much time is getting, getting the . So your, your other subjects going okay? Economics Yeah. and C D T and I've got your maths is good now isn't it? Yeah that's So it's just your science that you are thinking ooh and they are a lot of I'm not really worried about it to be honest I'm not worried about any of them, I thought I would actually be erm I'm actually, we're under a lot of pressure at the moment but I'm not actually, usually when I'm like that it's all gone I tend to say well forget about it and you know run away from it kind of thing, Yeah. when you're under pressure, but I'm not I'm just, I'm just doing it in my stride and and taking it as it, as it comes. Good. If you've got, you know, if you've got too much pressure Not worrying about it too much because that'll just make it worse. It does make it worse and if you've got a lot of things that you're supposed to be doing, you just think well I can't do all of them. If I try and do all them. Now pick up the important ones, sort out your priorities. Erm say if you're looking at erm say if and you think well I know pretty much about alternative sources of power, wind and water and all that stuff. I don't really need to be Just so long Yeah. as oh that's good, I feel that they're now acid and alkalis, seem to be important, I've done I've put a lot of effort into them, maybe just a quick glance at those occasionally to keep up to date. Use your, use your time, use your energy,so it's going to get you know . But erm what are, what are you hoping to do after your exams? Er try and relax and wait for them. I don't know erm Depends on what you get? Yeah. Erm I've started writing off, we've drafted a letter to write off to different colleges and sort of I'll write off before I do my exams. Right. Cos the answers, when they come back, are going to be, things like, depends on what you get in your exams and it's very, it's very bad stage in your life, it's er going to affect, but I mean the weather's going to get nice, and it you know, it's going to be great. Everyone will be tempted to go out. If you work now, not you know, not killing yourself but if you can put in a certain amount of work now and go without watching telly, sitting round, listening Mm. to music, going out with your mates. Erm just to get Right James, let's have a look at this finger. Thumb. Thumb. Well it is a finger of sorts. What have you managed to do to it? Oh dear, oh dear , I don't now what he's done to it. oh dear. It were a bit swollen yesterday and he's been in bed day, when he's got up this morning that's how Now that is not very nice is it James? I don't know why doing it. Is that very painful in there? Yeah. Okay,Sit yourself down. Sit down. If you look at the finger, if you draw a little picture from the side,nail coming out there okay. and in here you've got some bones okay? Yeah. So this joint here is this joint here, and there's the nail. Now what you've got is a really cute infection. It started around the edge of the nail I should think, and that's where they usually go. But this has spread quite rapidly, it can't really go beyond here, cos the skin is quite tight. It's quite tightly bound round there, so it stays in this area here. And instead of just being here round the top, this has actually gone round here too, by the looks of it. And it's probably actually got an abscess in there, which is why it's so swollen on the top, sides and at the bottom. Now the danger of leaving these is you can get g i is the infection can spread into the bone soon. And if it does that you're in real trouble. So what you need to have done with this is to have all the puss got out. Yeah. Okay, and it needs to be opened up in someway, which sounds a bit drastic but isn't actually that bad. And sometimes as well as going this way we actually need to go in this way too, to actually get it out. If it was simply round the nail we could do it here, but it's not. I mean it actually looks like an abscess in there, so this really needs to be done in the hospital I'm afraid. It's not an enormous But thing. on Sunday it it looked alright , Yeah. there were nothing wrong with it . They spread very quickly. But they don't spread tha out of this way, but they can spread in this bit quite quickly, cos there's nothing to stop it going around there, at all. Urgh. It won't go further back in a hurry, but it it's These are very very nasty. Have you had anything stuck in it, James? You haven't had a splinter? I don't think he has, Or anyone knocked or banged it? football, kicked at it. S Footballs. They kicked at it . Right, this is his right thumb, is he right handed? Yeah. Will he have to go on the Yes he will, he'll have to go on the plug yeah he c You're not fit for work for a little while. Now,, what we really need to do is to get the orthopaedic people to have a look at this. In fact they may recommend they have people see him. And if they recommend that, that may mean a little bit of trip, down to either Nottingham or perhaps even Derby , but if we start off at Kings Mill and they'll decide what h The best way of treating this. Okay? So we'll get them on the ph blower. little letter. Now he's otherwise fit and well isn't he? We don't see him very often. No. He weren't very well yesterday at all, he were in bed all day. Yeah,where are we now? Twenty fourth is it? Twenty four. And it's isn't it? Yeah. Is he allergic to anything you know of? No. And he's not on any pills and tablets at the moment, is he? Ooh yes, that's a nice cold isn't it? A strange bloke. If you find you go and they see you and you get very little joy, can you get back to us? Yeah. Well he might just have got out of bed, that may not help. But if you do have problems do get back and mm. Is my nail going to my nail going to come off, mum? Yeah, I'm afraid it may well fall off James, yes. It may well fall off, but if it does fall off and everything gets back to normal it'll grow back again. I black nail Now what they'll do is they'll have a look and then decide what to do. There's a there's a chance that they will actually refer you on. Er they may feel this isn't They can sort it out themselves, so we'll see. Depends I If er one of the hand specialists is in they'll probably get you done there and then, if they're quick. And where do I go then, just Kings Mill casualty Kings Mill casualty, and the Where's that? orthopaedic people will see you there. J Have you been to Kings Mill since they rebuilt it? No I haven't been since the c they moved the casualty there. Right you go straight up Yeah. the drive. And the block is on the right hand side, and you just keep going straight on. Okay, don't turn right, don't turn left,go straight on. And the car parks are to the right and the main entrance is on the left and you just keep going straight on straight on straight on straight on and the bottom left hand corner is casualty. Now you can't actually park by casualty's door, you're going to have to park a little bit before that. But Aha. if someone's giving you a lift, what you could do is get them to drive straight down, drop you off, and then they can go and park. Okay. And it's You go straight up and it's in that bottom left hand corner. Right. Okay You can't really miss it, it's where all the ambulances are. So you're going to see the orthopaedic people there care of casualty, B B C one. I mean Kings Mill hospital, ho ho ho, little joke. Right now we better start you off how we mean to go on James, with er a sp a special sticker. We don't give you one of those cos they're boring,much more interesting one. Shall we give you a lion for being brave? Would you like a lion for being brave? Yeah. Would you like a lion. It says I've been good at the doctor today. We'll start you off with one of these, okay. That can't be a bad start. One lion s One lion sticker, there you go. Okay? And they're going to have a good look and you may need to do all sorts of interesting things, okay. As i said, if you have problems and they don't you don't think they're going to do an awful lot, get back to me cos I I'm sure that's going to need some sort of intervention. Right. There's certainly no point in just waving antibiotics at it cos that won't make it better. So I can take him now then should Yeah take him straight d Can you tell me of your first involvement with the support group? Well back in September a few weeks after the quarry men first came out on strike a few of us went up to the picket line, a few of the women. We were quite aware that the er quarry men well then there were fifty three out on strike er fifty men and three women, very much wanted to er t well play it their way in a sense. They didn't er they they weren't used to industrial action I think it's fair to say and er they didn't want they weren't quite sure whether you know they they might be taken over by cert well certain political f factions if you like. So I think you know we were all very ware aware of that of people that were had been active in the miner's strike. I was Secretary of the miner's support group that was set up in Blaenau during the year long miner's s strike where we collected a lot of food and twinned with a town down in South Wales and made a lot of new friends. And we used to er do a food run down and they used to come up and erm And then we went along to a to a lodge meeting th the men invited us along and I remember one of the comments back in September from one of the men was, Oh well I'm gonna be nagged back to work soon. And er I think i we thought from that well why not set up a women's support group and er see what the reaction was really from from the women you know and an I and we said in that lodge meeting will you ask everybody all the women that you know that er are involved, the friends the girlfriends and wives, to come along the next Tuesday and we'd have a meeting of our own. And that's how it started and it was really just you know we said we'd do a bit of fund raising and I think the men were pretty sceptical of you know they thi they thought we might fight over the first tin of beans or whatever . And erm I think they've been I think they've changed really over the months I think all of us have as well and erm well that's how it started anyway. W w when you first er when you first went up onto the picket lines erm h how m many of you w were there then? Ah this was really just Yona and and me you know I mean Yona obviously felt very strongly about her father standing in the rain on the picket line worked hard all his life an it had come to this really being sacked er they were just newly sacked then. And we just went up you know just the two of us asks is there anything we can do you know sort of was as simple as that really and it just er grew from that. I mean suddenly we had the example of a women's support group from the miner's strike th that we had the idea you know fr from that erm and Yona really put it in a nutshell when she said I think er er you know behind closed doors the women worrying about what was gonna happen next you know they felt very frustrated and in a way it was a way to channel o our energies away i i i it was seen as that really in the beginning you know as a a sort of a more as a way of getting rid of the well y you know the sort of desperation er the impotence one felt of not being able to do anything in this situation and it's er and by now of course we've all become as a group very close er you know we're we're more like a big family now really an sort of er a lot of the women have never really sort of regularly been to meetings an th the commitment there is very strong really that we all turn up to our Tuesday meetings sort of. It's a bit like I don't know how you know I don't think any of us miss you know Tuesday evenings. How do y y so Yona yes yesterday referred to the atmosphere of the of the of er the women's group Mm or the quarry men support group Mm erm it's been something which is which was quite unique really erm in her experience of of groups of people. Yes I suppose it's true that for somebody like me I've been involved in quite a lot of different groups over over the years and the quarry men's support group is it's difficult to put in words really er exactly how it's erm you know I think it's very easy f for groups to become sort of s set really and er well I've always wanted it to to involve everybody and I think it does that in a way it sort of er it's quite special to all of us in in a funny sort of way it's er you know we feel quite committed. And it's to do with everybody's lives you know it an and I think out of it is c er people are realizing that they can. You know our first victory was w sort of within forty eight hours of being set up. The Quix supermarket had refused the box because they'd ha although they'd had it for a cert for quite a long time during the miner's strike I think. Because of all the bad press that miners got and in a sense Quix was responding from higher up probably by saying you know well take the b they took the box away in fact at the end of the miner's strike and then when this strike came along they thought it wouldn't you know the the they that was their rule sort of thing. And I remember one of the women saying, Oh well we'll pick at Quix we'll make a real fuss. And erm our local er press was there and I think he went away and phoned up straight away t to Quix and said, Oh well you know they were twenty five to thirty women in Blaenau I never you know sort of their not your usual erm politicals if you like you know they just. And they they seemed very determined er you know if if you don't I think you'd better er put the the box there and within twenty four forty eight hours or whatever it was we had the box in Quix you know. And I think we were all slightly sort of surprised that we could have this sort of effect. And things like writing leaflets in a way you know that comes up in meetings we'd better write a leaflet and the response usually's, Oh n gosh we can't do things like that you know, we can't speak in public, we can't write leaflets and in fact we do you know we find ourselves achieving these things and and I mean I think men really their attitude has really changed over the months. I don't I thin I think there's probably a lot lot less sexism just in terms of I think we've won their respect by you know and and certainly when th they didn't want us to picket in the beginning, and then over the months really the women have done quite a lot of successful picketing when we've been asked and and we've staged quite big pickets quite a lot of you know the big pickets were really organized and the rallies have been organized by us and really sort of quite a lot of the input into into the strike I think has come from the women's support group in in quite a unique way. I think that's true what Yona says you know it it is Cos you know I the sort of the political people of the town tend to be councillors who are er men mainly and set in their ways and think that because they've got the label councillor behind you know b front of their name that they're they are for life you know it's And they're sort of respectable inverted commas members of the community and you know and I mean I hope that out of out of all this I mean it's it's a shame it has to happen in such a desperate situation you know because I mean none of us can really feel glad that Because to be on strike is I mean each day is is hard I'm sure for well I mean I can only say because to be close to people on strike it's quite a unique thing really for me and i you become so involved and close to people and you realize how hard it is for them. But I think out of this we'll all look back you know and things, I mean it's a bit of a cliche,but er it's not gonna be the same again I don't think it is gonna be the same again in Blaenau I think people have changed. Th you said or you implied that the women were surprised that er that they could have power and you use it effectively. Erm how did that sort of perspective come about the sort of things could be theirs do you think? Well it's difficult to pinpoint it in words isn't it. It's like it's it was a you know it's been and still is an experience you know it's sort of n none of us almost you know we we don't realize it's happening and you know you like back on the minutes of. We've tried to keep our our support group also you know to go back sort of as loose as possible that we haven't great great format of a chair and a secretary and a treasurer although we do have that frame work because we've discovered we also needed some sort of structure. And if you look back at the minutes and then Yona I think she's great as the secretary because she doesn't let anything go but on the other hand she's pretty informal about and the way th that over the weeks you know somebody er Julie or June or Mervia Ann come up with the suggestion that they maybe feel why don't we do this and then by the next week it's turned into a a rally or a big picket or or a record. I mean they're they're all gonna do this this record next week erm the quarry men are going to do their own record with . You know and it's a sort of awareness you know then and and now we talk about, Oh we've got to stay together after the strike I mean what what are we going to do . And every weekend really there's a social organized and I mean I think although packing the food parcels on a Saturday is in a sense well you know if we take the food thing nobody knew really. I mean we had an example from the miner's strike but that ha was happening far away in a sense and it was just something that you could support or yo you didn't support or you put a tin of beans in the box in Quix and that was what you did you know sort of And then actually faced with having to accept food from that people had given you in a way, it's a very quite a difficult concept. I don't think anybody knows exactly how they'd react to that you know sort of And I think the women's support group has created the frame work that's enabled us. Because it was the women themselves who were organizing it because they felt part of it they didn't see it as some sort of other people that were more politically motivated that than them giving them something to keep them out on strike, which by its very nature could could have been something that the people would have accepted for a while and then not accepted. But i it grew slowly over the weeks and I think Christmas was an example of just the actual logistics of what we did at Christmas must be something of a feat in that so much stuff came in from the volume of presents and then the way in which they could be distributed. I mean if you think about it it was just an impossible task to do it sort of fairly or so that everybody felt all right about it and also that you know if it's your own children you're having to choose presents you know the who whole idea was sort of very very difficult really. And I think it was an example of the trust that we'd built up over the weeks and months that we were able to do it. And we had our hiccups and we had all sorts of you know difficult moments for all of us where we all had to face ourselves and You know I remember my little boy said, Oh Mum y what about my Christmas you know I was putting a lot of time into the the striker's Christmas and he said how do you become a striker's child? And it came home to me that you know we all had to come to terms in some way with erm with what it was all about and the kids and you know and it became something of a I mean i it was the experience that we went through you know it was i it was you know something that we'll always remember I think because it'll always make Christmas different I think for us in a way you know but it And when they came up from South Wales with car loads and van loads and I mean we all just sobbed you know I mean there was nothing to do really you know it was just and I think anyway that was Christmas, but I mean er. And we had expected rather a slump after Christmas that hasn't happened really so that er you know we're just so busy I mean one thing to the next really. Can you can you give me some idea the sort of flavour of erm how your meetings how they g g go now? Well the men tend to come to our meetings and sit in the back now because their they well what in their words they say, Oh they they're much better than the lodge meetings. And erm we've got this big rally er which a fortnight ago Julie suggested that we had a rally I think she thought er you know that it was time we a the public profile up sort of thing. And er she wanted er you know she has visions of us filling the streets of from to with banners waving and the we asked for no banners in the first rally we had back in October because we didn't want it to be seen as some thing that had you know big sort of take over and everybody you know the Communist Party and the language people and er all the different factions being able to wave their banners you know, We support the Blaenau quarry men. And er but very definitely now I think we've got the self confidence that er you know we very much and er we feel established enough that everybody can bring their banners and it's gonna be a good day. So the meetings are packed really with organizing and trying you know democratically to decide who we're going to have to speak and the balance of speakers and er where we're going to march from and who's gonna invite the band and who's gonna do this and who's gonna do that you know. And the men erm as I say come along and sit in the back. Do do you the men actually take part? Yeah they do take part cos they're dying to say things and we give them jobs to do. No they they it's good you know it's er I think believe your your title has changed slightly has it from women's support group to the quarry men's support group? Oh I didn't know that actually but er fine yes I mean er that sounds like a very good idea. Yeah. When did that happen then? I was just curious. Yes. You or it's implied in what you're saying about the er the burgeoning self-confidence that people become responsible for particular avenues. Mm. Erm do you see any danger in in that kind of specialization? Er that certain people won't feel involved do you mean ? Yes. Yes. Oh yes obviously er there is that element there always is and you have to out weigh I think you know creating sub committees that then er. But our entertainments sub committee for instance sort of er changes an people join it and y you know sort of er. As as I said we're we're not very formal but er you know that also has its especially if people that er maybe erm, how can I put it, are not used t taking everything back to a meeting and you know they maybe make a decision and go ahead with it and then it gets shouted at a bit but I think we we can all take being shouted at a bit as well. You know like I say there is quite a lot of trust and erm I think Yona and me are sort of aware er we're very much united in the feeling that we don't we don't want things to erm you know we want everybody to be involved and obviously different people have different things to offer. You implied erm that many of the women who weren't really aware politically in in fact may have been quite restrained in that sense Yes Or unconscious Yes Have become possibly aware of erm politics and the wa way power flows? Yes I think you know I mean democracy if I use that word is supposed to be er by the people for the people isn't it you know but I mean I'm always amazed. B before I became a councillor I didn't really realize about the three tiers of local democracy. Here you know you had the Town Council and the District and then the County. And you know it is amazing what you can achieve really by you know there is such a lot of scope really. A and it is this stupid business of of in a way you know the whole idea that er it's beyond us you know. It's something for other people to do, do you know what I mean? And I mean I think women tend to be inv having to cope with things like school and er and health and you know they're a at the grass roots if you like of you know at the receiving end of you know say cuts in in services like that and bus services and just quality of rural life and I mean the quality of life in Blaenau is depopulation and unemployment and you know and and in a sense there is lot of scope for women to break down the barriers of you know cos it is true that the the Councillors they're supposed to represent the people or whatever tend to be quite well to do they've done it thank you very much and then oh you know they've got the time on their hands and they tend to be men and s school ex school teachers ex You know and they're not having to cope with really situations that go will put them in touch with what it's like not to have a bus service or not to have proper health care and this sort of thing you know. So erm. Well I'm trying to gen you know just as a generalization now. And I think erm you know just that really. D do you predict that the the political nature of of the town at least wi will be will be changed in quite a fundamental way if and when the strike ends as a consequence of over this new ? Well yes it's it I dunno it's you know I don't know want to say You know basically the facilities for change are really in the hands of of the politicians aren't they you know? And if there's no work and if there's no means by which people can get themselves you know those sorts of basic things but you know I'm not gonna si I I couldn't say that the whole structure is going to ch change becau but I think erm I hope anyway and I do believe really that er I mean I hope that we're going to stay together as a support group in some sort of form and Yes and there's no way that we're not going to support other causes in the way that we've been supported. And I think that's that's a wonderful experience to realize that er you can be part of you know cos surely finally working men and women through history have never without sticking together they'd they'd still be back you know in the in the dark ages as far you know. So it is I I I won't predict you know how it's gonna be too much you know because obviously er it's just the day to day living is quite difficult for most people have to work and cope with their families and you know so there's not going to be er that the fundamentals are are not gonna be changed and obviously people are gonna be very broke for a long time because in a strike situation you probably don't ever really quite recover. I mean they've been on strike now for six months. And erm. But I mean I think the feeling of the the miners were out for a year I mean time and time again I've heard people say, Oh how d how do they do it and look at the money they're sending us and look at what they're doing for us and how ho . You know they must be you know and a certain amount of guilt maybe that they that they didn't support the miners or you know it was something that was happening far away and maybe y like I said you gave the odd tin of beans you know but er Has there been any kind of surprise of the amount of support that you have got? Yes definitely I mean I don't think we ever dreamt in our wildest dreams I think really it was maybe chance thing f fate or whatever you know. The network er what the miner's strike created I think anyway was a sort of network of people Th and it wasn't just through the usual trade union political party network it was or through the support groups really er it sets up a network of like You know maybe a vacuum that needed to be filled by and They looked at the case of the quarry strike and it's sort of so glaring obvious for men and women all over the country that it's er really a case of er wo working men and women being erm well being trampled upon really. They were they were asking for them to make more slates for for less money and they weren't prepared to sit down and really talk it through with the men they just treated you know they just had this awful attitude that itself was a a sur surprise in in the town amongst the the women that the quarry men as being local people wouldn't talk with th their own kind. Yeah I I dunno how s much of a surprise. I suspect that there'll there'd been a certain amount of alienation for a long time things that the men had to accept because the people with the money and therefore the power said that they had to you know a I think quarry men are very proud on one level great sort of craftsmen in a way and erm I'm sure that you know th the last couple of years well I've heard them say really tha that there'd been things niggling them with the management but I suppose this was just like a blatant smack in the face and they realize that if they accepted this if they let the management walk all over them this was the thin end of the wedge you know that. And for the women you know I mean it's i in a situation you probably I don't know you know this comment that, Oh my my wife's gonna nag me back to work, or whatever that was made in the beginning probably could be that the women were saying, Oh my God you know we can't afford to have you on strike just accept it you know just I'm definitely not I think really they have felt they have really changed fund fundamentally they've found a self confidence that they can say no you know it's not good enough. And er certainly Amanda who who's on strike then you know I mean they don't get equal pay the women the the the three women that came out I mean one of them's gone back an Amanda and Helen you know I mean they they were on they were on terribly low wages. And I think Amanda and Helen certainly you know there's they found a self confidence that er feeling of what the union is all about as well you know. See th history of the union is I mean er but er you know it's a it's a process isn't it in in a way the management have are probably really kicking themselves now for what's happened you know I mean, their li latest statement is er, Well if there hadn't been so much ou outside interference I'm sure we'd have been able to settle. You know I mean can you think of anything more ridiculous with there you go they probably haven't got any other leg to stan I mean that's no leg to stand on but they've got nothing else to say really you know. Is there and is there any kind of exp expected amongst the support group that that the strike is going to end successfully? Well I dunno whether we whether you'd sort of when you're so close really. I mean for me I I've gone beyond hoping in a way I mean it's just a question of keeping going from week to week and I don't know how to measure success. I know it it sounds sounds sort of strange really it is re really strange. In the beginning I just hoped and prayed that it would be over next week. And in a way it's become easier as the times this might sound funny as the times gone on. Almost as if we can go on forever if that's how it's got to be. You know it's a sort of what's got to be has got to be in a sense I mean there's no going back now there's no surely finally every every strike is settled in the end and they've got to come and talk. Everybody's got to sit down and talk eventually and something has got to be worked out and that's got to happen we know that. And meanwhile we'll keep going you know and er and do what we have to do which is to make sure that when they get dow when they get round to that table sitting down that well certainly the the quarry men are not gonna be hungry if if you know what I mean I mean they they gonna sit there with full bellies in a sense that they're not gonna be starved back and I mean th that sounds rather dramatic and a cliched but I mean when you're living on the bread line and expecting money from week to week I mean that's what it's all about isn't it you know and and the food parcel. We first of all we used to give the food parcel every fortnight because it was half one week and half the next and now it's a food parcel every week so they they're guaranteed that basic sustenance you know and erm and we'll keep up the up th up the fund raising and the money's certainly still pouring in. I mean th the f the funds having dropped at all. And if if it does start dropping we're gonna have to change our tactics and go and do something else you know we'll we'll knock on anybody's doors do you know what I mean w we're not proud and we'll go you know we'll just change our tactics and er whatever it takes. And I think I'm I speak for er you know so so if that's success then yes you know then then it's it's got to you know I dunno ho Do you think that the management are aware that they are now dealing with people who've changed? Well like I said I think probably they're really kicking themselves I mean I would be in their situation. You know and this statement that, Oh it's outside interference if these students hadn't come up to picket. Well I mean it's a ridiculous statement isn't it? You know I mean because all the people that have come to show support and er solidarity have done it er I mean we've been very aware you know the quarry men have actually said you know no we don't want you to actually block the land rovers we do it our own way and erm you know there's been no out of control mass picketing or violence or anything like that. So I mean and if a and surely if they're talking about actual support in terms of food and money I mean can they really. You know in a way South Wales is paying back the debt that we pa w w we paid them in their strike you know I mean and That's communities helping communities and if really this management is talking about er the fact that they resent families not having to go without over Christmas and this sort of thing you know I mean where are their values you know it's difficult to understand isn't it? Is there any hint that you might be forced to make an inver an inversion o in that sense that er you would be able so that you would have to make statements like that as you've made you you've turned them that the employer's statement on it's head? Erm how do you mean exactly? Well in in the sense that erm they've said referred to outside interference Mm and you said well if they mean you know support from from people in South Wales who Mm are stopping people starving Mm I mean have you ac hav have you actually made that comment in public? Well this came up actually on a on a radio sho er chat thing that was open to the public in Blaenau Ffestiniog last night er where the chair was saying erm well you know I mean a lot of the a lot of the people that haven't been very involved in this strike that I think should have been involved. I mean myself as a councillor I think i if you're a councillor you should be involved in the strike in one way or another you know. I mean all this sitting on the fence I mean they must have very sore bums . I mean I dunno whether it's because they don't want to lose votes or you know I mean they they were there sort of pontificating about we should all come little children and let's talk. Er we've all got to be friends in a situation let bygones be bygones sort of. Well I mean it's gone much beyond that I mean they the reality of the situation is er is not like that I'm afraid I mean it Eighteen men have been sacked and and these are men that have put those quarries where they are. You know they they're a lot of the older men makes you wonder have they been sacked so they don't have to pay them hand shakes at the end you know if they wanted to lay some people off. Cos you know we're all aware that in this sort of new technological new machinery the new machinery versus a lot of skilled labour is is a difficult debate isn't it you know and but you can't. In nineteen eighty six treat people as if their labour is worth nothing you know those men have given their lives to the quarry industry and there's no doubt that there is money to be made from slate at the moment and people are people that have the money to invest are making a lot of money okay they're inves they're risking the money but er people are risking their lives as well and giving their lives. You seem to suggest that there is quite a and quite a a different relationship between the quarry men er and the quarry owner than there is normally between say a employer and an employee. Th th that the quarry man somehow has has an investment in the erm in the rock in th other than than than what he receives in wages. Yes I wouldn't like to say too much about this you know I'm I'm only a farmer I'm no expert on these thi you know just from things I feel really erm. I think historically although you know historians can much better than me, erm historically maybe the way that the rock has been worked with a bagging system and it was you know and lots of quarry men had little bits of farm as well around Blaenau especially and you get a feeling er from reading about it that er you know they have a an almost self employed attitude to their to their work and their rock and the fact that er they'd do it in their own you know wor work the rock in a certain way and this and very sort of proud erm of their work and that and From talking a lot to them and being close to you know it you feel that that that's still very much the same really you know there is this sort of close relationship and that with their em employers there was you know a lot of you know wasn't it wasn't straight it as straight as you said a straight employer employee relationship that they was A lot of s sort of er give and take probably and I think they were outraged at this sort of McGregor type tactic really that you know this new machine. They were prepared to compromise because they I'm sure that you know you can't imagine them not being really but because they're such erm they were outraged at this machine but they were prepared to give it a try but the way it was bulldozed through that once the machine was there there was no choice then and almost you know get going boys get more and more and more slate you know greed they felt the employer was being greedy at the expense of quality. And really the slate industry I think probably hinges on quality being maintained you know I mean li like I said I don't want to go in you know I'm no expert on this sort of thing but erm A deep sense of of injustice I think is that and, oh my God if if we let him start making us just you know like robots produce more and more slate and laying off some of the older craftsmen and you know they do and David Price who knows and I mean th they put that and and then they the last fifteen years it was a it was a defunct slate quarry before you know and they I mean it's not as i it's not an easy thing to er work slate I'm sure it's d difficult and you have to know what you're doing. Are you are you sort of saying in fact that the erm that the the success of those qua of the rebirth of the slate industry in has depended largely upon erm these mens skill erm as well as the investment of the quarry owners? Oh I think there's no doubt about that and also their their their wages were low in the beginning you know and and their their their hard work that they've put into it for the last you know I mean it had it I mean David Price says at the best of times is not easy to run a quarry you know you know and they they ha all work in a quarry so it had to be a cooperation and you know the management said you come up with us and and they weren't complaining actually about the wages it was quite good wages for. Mind you it was only their wages are only comparable to say some wages that they get in nuclear power station. I mean it's only fair it's not we're not talking about huge wages but for Gwynedd which is a low wage area they were reasonable and they worked for them too you know but but they weren't complaining about the money so much as the principle. And there are records of this everywhere aren't there you know sort of and and probably you know the the management thought er I don't know if they thought this far really or we'll we'll show them that they can't that they can't stick together as a union and why should all the quarries stick together. I mean the management are quite prepared to stick together when it comes to getting grants as the Ffestiniog Slate Company. But when it suits them they choose not to be seen and seen you know sort of divide and rule tactics of seen as different entities really and I mean to be how dare and one one comment was how dare these men gang up against us. Well I mean you know we're not playing children's ganging up games are we we know we're dealing with peoples' lives and families. You refer to the er n network which is erm become consolidated in the miner's strike and Mm the dispute here. Can you d d d describe it in in in some bit of detail? Well you know just loosely really there's the contacts that people I mean. One of the initiatives er was er the Congress the Wa all Wales Congress that was set up in the miner's strike for instance. But I don't think it really ever I mean there were quite a lot of initiatives like that you know of people thinking of different ways really of of sticking together to combat er you know what I've been talking about which was smashing unionism and er forcing lower wages really onto the the already low paid, which er really seems to be what Thatcher's all about you know in order to er curb inflation and create a very divided society where er half the population seem to have to live either on the dole or in in poverty really in in derelict bits of Britain. Erm while the rest er live in the lap of luxury I mean maybe that's a well I don't know I don't think it is an exaggeration really the way things are heading. And these sorts of initiatives of of people organizing together you know sort of. Oh I had a huge list of names really you know of erm you know we had quite big meetings where people seem to have come out of their parties their sort of sectarianism really you know which er the left is notorious for if you like if you want to use cliches. And er you know rally round each other and I think it's no more than that really no more or no less you know it's er. And certainly you know I mean Yona's list now of support for this next rally we've got on March the first is huge I mean it's sort of and that's not gonna go away is it you know I mean next year I don't know what we're gonna be up to but hopefully we'll be supporting somebody else in their er struggle for fair play and that network will obviously come into play you know I mean I've we've been South Wales have said, Oh you know these are all our contacts you know some of the women in South Wales and in Deeside they've said these are all our contacts and these are the people that were good and did the work and got the leaflets out and brought the money in you know and it's as simple as that really you know. D the people who've erm re who've really helped you in in ver very substantial way do you go and see them? Yeah well we're in touch with each another you know qu quite a lot of people have visited us. Obviously at the moment we we all of us are really tied up with living from a Tuesday to a Saturday really you know with Tuesdays our meeting and then all that has to be done after that and then Saturday is the food parcels you know so and most people work as well either part time or full time work at home er with the kids and bringing up families so and obviously also money is shor short for people that are directly involved in the strike so erm. No we're not all rushing off all over the place although the men and s some of the women you know we have gone off and they still I mean the men were in South Wales last week. A lot of people have come up to visit so in those term you know yes we do yeah sort of er seeing each other but erm you know we don't have a lot of spare time either. Can you give me some idea of your relationship with the erm the lodge? I mean is it possible to draw a comparison between the way it erm you know the women were regarded before they became so effective? Oh well erm I don't know really it's er. I've only been to a couple of lodge meetings it I was invited to go to I always felt slightly ambiguous about that really you know. You know we tend to sort of hover outside lodge meetings a bit you know cos it is all men you know and It's quite frightening really you know I mean this sort of erm I think the way the finances are worked for instance er. You know we were asked, Do you want your own bank account really and we decided er democratically that we'd have the one bank account really for make sure the D H S S didn't start snooping really and you know er that's worked very well I mean certainly the men very much tell us everything that's going on and erm well you know I don't think there's any conflict of erm I don't know you know it's it's difficult I suppose it's amazing really the way it does work you know and that er you know but it's quite loose really because it's er that's in a way the way one of it's successes probably you know that's it's not a very structured I mean probably the lodge is more structured I mean men are used to their lodge meetings aren't they you know? I mean we're so busy with our own we don't really you know we don't we don't feel at all upstaged by the lodge I think you know we just work together really you know because it makes sense you know I don't think there's no big And yet the erm the men have started to come to your m meetings? Yes they do they it's it's yeah they they liked to sort of erm I think they felt a bit shy in the beginning and yet you know How did they did they begin in sort of in ones or twos? Yes David Price used to you know sort of er sit in our meetings yeah as a treasurer it made sense you know our treasurer and him to work together and all that. And er they happen came along er to tell us about the Aberystwyth trip we went off to Aberystwyth the students gave us a party and he said, Oh I like your meetings I wish I could come here more often . And erm you know they they they tend to meet before us on a Tuesday and they sort of stay hang around . You know often they don't stay through the whole meeting but if they've got specific points to bring up you know th you know it's flexible really you know sort of depending on what's going on really. And Tom Jones stayed in one of our meetings a couple of months ago. I think he was a bit nervous really he thought, Oh my gosh you know that these are one of the big pickets that happened erm what are the women going to plan next you know and he felt you know Tom's you know felt a bit sort of out of control of it really I think he was very impressed with er. I I hope so I think it was er er we bridged you know I mean maybe you know it's often the way isn't it you know you think that's something going on and you think it's different to what it is when he realized we were all very level headed and that er. At that moment it had been appropriate to put big pickets you know I think if we thought too much about it we would have and taken it to the lodge and put it through the union it would have had cold water put over it and you know it was right for Tom to be wary and it was probably right for us to do what we did I mean I think you know it it was successful the way it turned out. I mean it could have been different it could have got out of control and then everybody would have turned and pointed a finger and that would have been awful. But that's also the nature of the way things are really isn't it as well you know? I mean probably women are more daring you know because they've got less to lose in a way I suppose if you if you're not a councillor you can be more er you know or if you're not worried for your job or you know or if there isn't a definite structure I suppose in the lodge there's the definite people that always say the same things you know what I mean and it's it's less easy to be spontaneous in that situation I would think you know. So erm I mean I think we're definitely seen by the men as as the more as the more brave in in a way you know. D'ya do you think they've erm re really learnt anything from you? Well I dunno whether I I'm in a position to comment on that you know you'll have to ask them about that whether you know we've all learnt from each other really. Well erm David said that he didn't think the strike would have gone on or they wouldn't have the heart to go on without the women? Yes that has been said yes that er well I suppose also it's a joint effort isn't it you know if. I mean the strain on families must be enormous in a strike situation and for both people in the family to be having an input and feeling that they're getting some sort of feedback from the situation that it's not just despair must surely you know be you know there's that side to it and then erm from the women's point of view I mean we have like I said become one big family in a way you know and the social side of the strike in a way you know people are sa you know going out more maybe and certainly Good this is an interview with Douglas from Blackwood part of Motherwell. Is it Well yes the postcode's Motherwell Blackwood's er just south of Hamilton about four miles south of Hamilton two miles north of Lesmahagow. Er so it's just just on the M seventy four. Just . Is it Lesmahagow is it? Erm It is Lesmahagow. I just wondered how that was re erm er er pronounced. Now on my er you and I spoke didn't we er Douglas? Yes we did. I've got circled circled good voice here. Well I am used to the telephone. Okay. Yes yes. Erm you're now you're not doing anything at the moment, we we agreed it was resting. Erm sales and computers Mar you were with Martin's? Retail Group yeah yeah. Thank you. Right now if you've got your application form, you've got a C V there as well haven't you ? Yes I have. Good that's great. Application form Good. C V. I'm having a quick read through this and I'll I'll ask questions at the same time. Where we what we have over on that table Douglas is a representation of er all the products and the and the compa companies that we market our products through Mhm. ranging from estate agents, and there are two on the end here from er both products are involved with estate agents, medical practices area health authorities, schools universities and colleges up in the top right there and the obvious ones down in the er corner there . Yeah. And I'll ask questions as we as you're doing that erm No problem. Okay. This is going to be more or less in line with what erm you told me on the phone anyway isn't it? I certainly hope so yeah. Yeah. Well I can only make much notes as my hand will allow me to . They still use terms like Lanarkshire and Dumfrieshire up here don't they? It's like us down in the in England using the old county names some times. Absolutely yeah. Strathclyde covers such a oh it's a huge area. Massive area isn't it? I mean in terms of population I think I somebody did er Strathclyde regional council used to be a client of mine when I was with Three M er well you know a client of my rep up here but er and they told me some time that I think a huge percentage of the whole of Scotland's population Oh it's it's about fifty percent. Is it? Of the Scottish population . Nearly half yeah. Yeah. Then you get the Highland Region and it's Yes it's only a small percentage of such a huge chunk of land . Crazy yeah geographical. Yeah. So if everything goes all right with what we discuss here today then er Douglas you can er you are available to start immediately in effect Yeah. Hope we can give you an opportunity. Yes yes. Oh smashing okay. It's alw always very useful that er erm if we have to people have to ask us to wait around for them for five or six weeks or sometimes on a three monthly er er resignation thing it er Yeah it er it tends to to elongate the whole process. In fact I would say that ninety five percent of the people we take on are er either resting as you are or self employed anyway. Right right. I'm sure that er I'm not in an unusual position er having been made redundant twice on the trot. What I'm really looking for is er the option to take charge of my life myself. I I I think certainly erm you're you're just at the age, er did we discuss this magic forty plus No we didn't. No no. It's one of the delightful, I've been recruiting for a long time and it's it's one of those erm delightful things to be able to say to people on the phone when they tell me they're fifty or fifty four to say that's not a problem. Because they're so used to getting rejection. I've also had people at forty plus telling me the same thing which is a nonsense. With all that Yeah well what experience down the drain is it's crazy. Yeah. Last last time I was er resting was er about sixteen months ago and er I actually applied and got pretty far down the line er for a position within Woolworths only to find that er when they stated that they wanted people between the ages of twenty eight and thirty five they did actually mean that. Er so regardless of the fact that er I was er well recommended and eminently suitable er for the job they wouldn't even let me go yeah go for the the final interview. Er I was forty at the time so I was five Five years Five years over. Yeah yeah. Mm. I I think that er It's disconcerting. I think companies well in fact B and Q erm recently announced that er not recently I mean in the last eighteen months they've started to have their er stores erm It's actually long longer er Longer than that? Yeah I mean I I think Macclesfield was one of the first er That's right that was about five years ago. Is it that long ago ? Yes I was still there er when they the initiative They announced that. Yeah yeah. Well I we used er used to live in Macclesfield and er of course you know it springs to mind when er but I didn't realize it was that long ago. It seems so recent. But I don't know whether that policy still prevails but Erm I I think does but er I don't think it er became quite the successful initiative that er that they hoped it would be. I mean I do think there are limitations with er You still have to get good people in their fifties. That's right that's right. You've still got to get good experienced people in their fifties and er whilst a lot of people have experience or a lot of experience er from their their previous working life it's not always easy to make the jump into face to face aspect isn't it? Well it's but it's it's the modern shopping experience Oh ah you mean in other words you the fifty pluses are still Well back in the days of the hardware stores. Yeah yes right. Yeah the corner shop and all the And it's going to be difficult for er a lot of people to make that transition. Yep. Er a lot of lot of people in the fifties sixties age group May not even agree with it I don't know. Well they're still uncomfortable Yeah. uncomfortable a bit uncertain and perhaps even a bit threatened. And a lot of them still haven't worked in large organizations That's right. and erm B and Q or wha any of those retail shops may be er that box that they see on a on an estate now but er it is a huge organization. Almost the opposite to of er what I'm looking at er coming from er being employed by larger companies to basically working for myself. Well erm take it from me that I've worked for for major American corporates and one major British corporate and er there is still something that you may miss all right. This is a little bit of advice. But I went erm self employed back in eighty eight. Oh so it's not long ago is it? So it's not long ago. But er but I was at my late forties and er er there are still times that you you feel that that urge to be involved in the er meeting up with your mates every day or your colleagues and having a good chat about business. I believe and this is why I'm involved with I believe that you get the best of both worlds here. Because here you have an opportunity to go launch yourself onto a self employed erm platform and cannot provide a better platform for that and I would say that wouldn't I he's thinking. Mm. But erm because I've been out there doing this and that's that was part of my if you like to come in to do the recruitment side of it, er I had to experience and I'm glad I did because there were one or two pre-judgements I had about advertising sales, as most people do, erm that I had to get wiped out of my erm my my system. And I was in my early fifties when everybody tells the world that it's it's harder to adapt and get er some of the traits out of your system. Er didn't take me too long to do that but certainly did about my my views on advertising. They've changed quite the opposite way because er I now know that it can be done and how important advertising is to the even to the local businesses. So you make er you know we've my I would have explained as much as I can on the phone exactly how we operate. Sure. Douglas now your background here is mainly erm er retail face to face but I can also read into and what er this and what you told me on the phone that there's erm quote a lot of sales as well. Absolutely. Er particularly my past experience with . Er I mean I was involved in direct and corporate selling. Right. Albeit briefly er in that er twelve months with er with . Er I have had some successes to date. Er notably er a sale for a hundred and seventy systems. Er er in Yorkshire er and some That's not bad if you got Yorkshire people to part with their brass for Yeah but I'm a Scotsman er and Yorkshire Yes. Yorkshire people trust Scots They do don't they? Yeah yeah much more than you know some from down south Yes that's right. Yeah. Er it's but I don't really have any problems with with selling er I'm not hard sell er I don't believe in er stuffing things down people's throat. I mean if somebody says no that's fine. Okay. Well now I don't have a problem with that. Good. That last point is quite im er quite important when it comes to selling advertising. I would have said to you on the phone we don't make appointments to go and see people to talk about advertising. So when we do the telesale er sale on the phone bit Yeah. erm you're likely to get plenty of no's. Ah I understand that understand that. That doesn't mean to say that you'd have let them necessarily get away with it on the spot but you you're still going to do a persuasive tact but in the end if they say no fine. Sure. Because there are plenty of others waiting in the wings. Mhm. Er okay well let let's er let me outline erm Douglas exactly what today's meeting's all about. I don't call these er interviews I call them discussions because they are self employed positions and er I seem them as a business opportunity rather than a job quote job. Erm one of the things that I like to emphasize er at this stage is that although it's self employed it is as close to being employed as you can possibly be with a company but then but still destined by your own efforts to earn earn the money. What I can tell you is that will provide the ultimate in backup for any self employed person that you cou I could ever wish to meet. We have an infrastructure that's been built up over twenty years so er and you've read our brochure and I hope it's it was as impressive to you as it is to most people. It's a it's a very impressive er brochure very well laid out which er I would expect obviously from a from a publishing company. Yes. If they can't get that right then we ain't gonna get most it right are we? Yeah. But no I mean as I say some of the content was was was very interesting and er the concept is er well it's something that excites me. Remarkably simple yet it still needs an awful lot of erm individ er people teams of people back at head office backing you know know what I mean. It looks like a locally printed or erm product which a lot of local printers could print this there's Sure. no doubt about that. But what they don't have is is that team of individuals throughout the U K funding something which is presented free to the client. Which is going to be absolutely superb for the client. You imagine ima imagine going to these clien especially doctors they'd snap your hand off. Well I can't imagine a doctor turn turning the offer down. Well he's used to getting free drugs er you know Yeah. samples and things like that . That's right. Here's something that he by law has got to have. He's no option he's got to have something like this. So rather than produce a simple double sided sheet or Aha. whatever and that he can produce a quite easy. Quite entitled to produce something like that photocopied on his own photocopier. Providing those basic elements But that would actually cost him more. Er it would cost them Yeah. erm and certainly it would not have much retention. They could they'd have to keep cut back. Whereas these booklets for instance are certainly retained because they're a two year thing. And he's had the size as well. Right. Okay what did you glean from the er brochure erm in the main ? In terms of? Oh just generally? Very very innovative idea. Mm. Er and er well it's not just one innovative idea er it's just innovative idea after idea er which is encouraging because it er means that the company is not resting on its laurels er having found an avenue and an opportunity they don't seem to be content just to sit expanding and developing that and doing nothing else. They do the expansion and the development but also looking at er other areas to move into. Well certainly er four years ago er four of those products weren't in existence. That's yeah. And we have relied solely on estate agents up until that point. And this is not the end of the story. I believe in er three or four years time I will need a a table er twice the size of that for examples of the of of the material. Because there are plenty of other areas that this will we haven't even started on hotels yet. There are plenty of companies that do hotels bit itty bitty er That's right. but er one of our major competitors has just gone out of business so we'll get a spin off from that both in both in estates er and in the hotel scene so Mm. Why why has the competitor gone out of business? They don't have that in the infrastructure. They they don't they're not paying their reps. You see one of the thin well they call them reps sorry we call them consultants now. Erm one of the things we guaran well the guarantees er er several guarantees we give to our our self employed consultants and that is that we will pay all commissions earned the following week Mhm. we will pay them for a start, that's that's the that's the trouble with a lot other companies and er it wouldn't be professional of me to mention names, but let me tell you that er that's one thing we do make sure that people erm get their money when when they've earned it. Erm and secondly we guarantee continuity of work. Nobody sits at home unless they've asked to for two or three days. Nobody sits at home waiting for the next assignment. Right. Erm particularly in the self employed capacity. If we were paying them a salary then of course it's up to us whether we have them at sitting at home doing nothing, they wouldn't they'd soon get bored with it. But when you're self employed it's very important to know that you're going to get The opportunity. The opportunity. Yeah mm. And that's what we provide. We provide a platform for people to earn substantial money erm you know the only guarantee we give you is that we will give you the opportunity. And quite quite honestly our top earners are top earners because they won't sit back and do one advertising deal a day and say, Hey aren't I clever. They will do two or three. Yep. Because in fact to do all of our assignments you probably only need to do an average of one a day. I think you mentioned on the telephone now one per day gives you something like seven hundred and fifty pounds per week . Aha yep. The average cost of all our ads erm co er is six hundred pound average. Yep. All right? Whichever you know if you take the cost some cost twelve hundred pound for a full page others cost three hundred and fifty and some cost even two hundred and fifty pound for a small strip on the golf cards. So there's there is quite a variety of across all of our companies but on average it's six hundred pound and on average it's a six thousand pound assignment er er target. And if if we home in on that then certainly then that's a nice comfortable seven fifty to eight hundred pound a week. But there you are that's mister average. Mhm. So what er Mister high-flier does a lot more than that. What percentage do you actually pay er to in in commission ? In commission? Well the basic is thirty percent on all advertising sales. And then we er we'll talk in a bit more detail depending on which company you and I decide that er you know once we decide in fact that is for you. Sure sure. Erm and I suppose I should er really start into into that erm area now and that is the purpose behind this erm meeting is er three fold. Erm and once we've got one decision out the way the other two are fairly simple and that is that you and I agree that is is is the is the right time er right place and and time for you to launch yourself em employed er aspect. Erm certainly most people will agree that you'll earn far more money as a self employed and commission only Mhm. because salary company car and all that is only one another form of commission anyway. And that can be taken away from you very quickly. Yes. Whereas you could choose to take this away if you want . That's right. I mean the d d difficulty I've got er is I'm sure the same as you had er about five six years ago Mhm? is is just actually making the step. Oh sure. After twenty odd years of being er a paid employee, albeit a very probably because it's I have been a very well paid employee . Yes yes. It's a it's a difficult jump to make. Yes. Er but I'm pretty certain Well you must have heard enough on the phone erm and there and there's no bull which I gave you Oh I'm intrigued and and seen that. I'm intrigued by it. Yeah yeah. Erm and if it's not it's er I'm not going to deny the fact that some people say you know this has been good for me for the last eighteen months erm I'm er I'm used to being self employed I'm going to stay that way but I'm looking at other avenues. But what I hope what we hope of course is that some people give us a real good try. Mhm. Er because I don't believe this company er could be matched in what it can give er to the individual. Anyway if we dec if you and I decide that er is er is for you er the other two decisions today i er are as follows. Erm we decide which company or which environment which environment you feel you might feel most comfortable within. And the third one is when. And I have to say that we give our commitment very quickly and we would like to think that people also give erm their commitment. So once we've decided which company you'll work within I can come I can provide you with a training course immediately. Right. And we ac we actually look for that sort of commitment too . Okay. I do I do have three or four interviews lined up and obviously I would have having been afforded the opportunity of of the interviews I would like to follow up. Now these interviews are between now and the end of next week. Fine. Well what I would what I would do erm I would rather have a commitment for a date to start when you go out of here and if you say if you've got if you've got something that comes up then fine. Then we part. Right then what I what I want want really is is something fixed Okay understand Rod. All right? If you decide that you know you've got something better or or alternative fine. Hello. It is Rod yes. Yes. Mhm. That's What you want. Mhm. Yep. Okay fine. Well you know at least you've er had the courtesy to phone which is a lot of people don't. That was one o'clock wasn't it? Okay thanks for your call and good luck. Bye. You've had few a few callers today Rod yeah? Mm? You've had a few callers . One or two actually. That's that's not bad. It's it's the people who don't turn up always amaze me. They they Don't turn up and don't call. Oh yeah. There must be plenty of work out there I always think. . I can understand er I mean we had some calls off er last week mainly because erm we we took we'd spoken to those people before Christmas and we do expect people to to drop out. But I still ex I still out of courtesy expect people to phone but may be I'm old fashioned. No no I mean it's er it it it is only polite isn't it to to do that er Yes sure. you're supposed to be So to get back to what we say er yeah I like to fix a date and if people phone up and say well look I've I've got something else or I've changed my mind I would rather have that than to have lots of paper work on my desk that just says may be or may be not. Okay. Okay? Yep. Erm now you've had a chance first of all I after our chat er par particularly on the phone and I make notes of people who er I think come well across on the phone because you know how important that is to us. Yes. Er we sell the whole concept on the phone er but we also have the luxury of face to face. Er which a lot of telephone sales people in whatever they're doing don't. Particularly the advertising stuck in a local newspaper office phoning all the businesses under the sun. They've never seen the people they phone them every week saying do you want a fifty pound advert in a paper which is dumped the next day. So it's gone. Whereas here we're we're selling a erm a very much more prestigious item and also a much more long term er commitment on both sides. And I don't seeing any problem at all in you being able to come over well on the phone which is the important thing for us. Looking at the environments where do you think you would feel most comfortable? Now I that's a luxury I have to say that most recruiting people do not get. Cert certainly the the opportunity does appear to be er huge in the the practices the medical practices. Er having said that er some of the newer opportunities must have er a lot of oh catching up to do if you like er to to the levels of the estate agents and to a lesser extent the doctors surgeries. Well the estate agent er area has been around now for twenty years so they're rather used to us in that. We we're we are market leaders in that we are very well known by estate er estate agent companies and er and of course er advertisers. I mean the new areas of course for us er and I still count the medical practices as a new area although it's been for four years Sure sure. we're well into erm I suppose we must be approaching somewhere in the region of two thousand surgeries out of fifteen thousand that are available to us. So there's still a huge But we also are now in resales of course. Cos every two years they're resold. So the first two or three hundred we did in the first year have now been resold twice. Mhm. Because it's four it's nearly five years on. The universities er and schools er is probably the next well it is it's the next major growth area. We're we're just about to mail may be it's gone out now, six thousand universities and colleges throughout the U K. And state schools are as interested that product as independents. Much more so nowadays I would have thought . Much more. Well they've got to get bums on seats you see. That's right. It's a case of parents choice. So who do we er home in on? All of those er folders will go out to the parents. Yep. And as soon as the parent opens up and or they're moving, and or they're moving into the area, there's the advertising for them. Yeah yeah. And so there's prestige in going into the school. And of course our most recent acquisition is the golf club company. Erm and that's another. So so really you've got er I was out on the medical practices so I know how successful that can be. And the other thing of course about medical practices is there's no limit on the amount of advertising you're selling to. Whereas all the others have specific slots. Yeah. So once you've done it you can't sell any more even though there are two or three people in the wings saying can I go into it . yeah yeah. Erm you just have to hope you can pass it on to er er the next assignment you're doing. Okay let's go Which you let's go for medical practices. Okay. Right because certainly er this this is er wherever you go in the country there are going to be medical practices and schools, golf clubs start to get restr more restricted and estate agents strangely enough still are widely spread up in Scotland here. Okay well what we'll do is home in on that. And what what what you have here what I I you'll get to take this away of course. This is an information pack which will tell you exactly what we do on medical practices. First of all can I say that er remind you that there's no responsibility on your be on your part to actually go round surgeries saying do you want our product. No I understand that. And that's that's one of the main attractions to be honest. Okay yeah . Er we we have warmed it up as much I would have said this on the phone, we've warmed it up as much as we possibly can. Erm and our marketing executive who goes round signing the surgery up leaves a certain amount of information er and particularly these erm a sheet si similar to this with er we ask the practice to sit down and compile a list of businesses. Erm and this of course can constitute an opportunity to do the whole of the assignment from. However let's get into the real world and realize that er that medical people are not the best marketeers in the world. Erm they will leave it to their practice manager and the practice manager will do his or her her best to list out as many businesses which with they have links or are local. Most important thing when you receive this is on on day one of the assignment er Douglas is to not just accept that list as it is. You need to sit down with the practice manager or whomever and say right now you've listed all these, why, what's peculiar about what's particular and peculiar about these that you should say that this is a good opportunity. And the more information you get about those businesses the easier it's going to be for you to er to convey to them you know a lot you've done your research on them. Understand. Temptation is to get on to the phone immediately Straight away. straight and erm a lot of people make that, very experienced sales people still make that mistake cost they're not used to it. When you arrive at the assignment there's an envelope waiting which will contain that list. Right now that that the rea other reason for qualifying that is the list may be six to nine months old. So it might not have all the latest Right. one or two companies may have gone as we know by the by as it were. Yeah yeah. But the er information from the for you and the doctors are included includ into the envelope er with things like such as that. That tells the erm the the exactly what you're doing there. Now some of the staff may not be aware that you're they're having a medical practice booklet brought together. That allows them to read in comfort exactly what you're what you're gonna be doing there. There's other information which will be shown to you on the on the er training school. And the training school's fully expensed. We have hold it at head office every week. All right there's one every week. Yep. And er Typically la last for one week? Er it typically lasts for three days. Right. Erm and on this side we send people out for two days before they come in to training so they are at least familiar with what what we do. So it's two days out in the field with one of our trainers or top people and then they come in for the three day course. So they're not coming stone cold. All right. But that's fully expensed at all times. Travel and hotel whatever okay? Here's a couple of er samples of books and we I'll refer to those erm during the next er three or four minutes. But what I need to show you is erm the sort of earning potential because that's quite important for you. But also the pricing. If I can just open those up and have a couple of samples of . Now we've kept it fairly simple on the on the medical practice side and we have three sizes and three sizes only. That's a full Yep. a half and a quarter. Right? So four quarters will be er constitute a full page. When the sales er exec on marketing goes round to contract the surgery to take that product there are two things that are generated. First of all they discuss the number of booklets that we're going to produce Mhm. and that will be determined by the patient list. Right? So if you've got a big patient list fifteen thousand we do a three to one ratio because of course there're there're number Number yeah the numbers game. So we will guarantee to print five thousand booklets per year. That's a guarantee. We can actually do unlimited publica erm print for them. But at least we guarantee that's the minimum. Whatever that figure is there will automatically internally produce a target figure that we want for that book. Right. Now that target figure is identified the day you arrive at the erm at the surgery. On the documentation that you receive direct from head office. And that is a figure you just have to have fixed in your mind all right? It's it's not if you don't reach seven thousand pound it's not a a failure situation, it's just that's we would be very happy to have that because the following year which is when no expenses come up for you know no no production costs come from erm then er that's that's the sort of profit we need to calculate for the Yes. second year. However on er on this particular product erm of course it's unlimited advertising sales. Excuse me. Right. In fact we've recently had a fourteen thousand pound booklet and you can when you take this home work out yourself exactly what that generated in three weeks for the sales consultant. And you can see he was a very happy person. I'm sure he would be yes. Couldn't do that on the other products because there's limited number of slots. However the assignment took a little bit longer than it er than if he'd been on the other product range. Okay. So having got that figure er fixed in my mind that's what we'd like to go for but erm and we pay thirty percent commission on all advertising sales, whatever you do however many you sell, you will get thirty percent commission and you will get it the following week, providing you do one or two things for us. I if I can ask you to home in on that five thousand pound figure, once you reach five thousand pound on any assignment you get another fifteen percent bonus. There's a small bonus there at four and a half but I ask people to fix in their mind Mhm. five thousand pound. So that anything over five thousand pound you get another fifteen percent in other words forty five percent commission. All bonuses are paid at proof stage and I'll explain why in a minute. All your commissions are paid the following week but when it comes to bonuses we we there is a slight delay, two two may be two to three months. Erm and the prices are as follows. As I said there are just three sizes but I've got five five prices, I would just like to home in on those three. Thousand pound is a full page. We always launch into a thou erm a full page erm sell. All right? So when we get on the phone we always talk about full page. Yep. And the work downwards. If you work if you work on a quarter page at three ninety and cos remember you're telling all this on the phone. Unlike traditional sales where you wait until you get round there to tell them what the price is you have you have to er tell them what er the price on the phone. Those are the prices and we they are premium slots. That's a premium slot which would cost twelve hundred pounds. All this will be gone into a lot more detail on the training course. You have an allowance if you need it of ten percent on the spot. If if you really need it to get the deal . To push a sale. Erm don't s you know if you're not a discount man forget that you you just have to say I'm I'm gonna use it if I need it. But if you are persistent Or a four thousand per that's the sort of thing. Now that's that I have to say is achievable in two weeks just the same. Because if you sold two or three full pages and may be four halves and a couple of quarters you have reached your seven thousand pound target. Yeah I mean I'd gather that look at er Yeah. at the prices. Yeah Yeah. Yeah. It's you don't have to sell a lot if er you've got a couple of full pages and a couple halves . Er in fact I would probably think that erm having looked at some of the results recently I would think that that's going to be somewhere close to average now. And you er that's gonna fluctuate as well. If you go into central London around east er around the East End erm that may not be an assignment that will, you see that's me prejudging. It's probably gonna be a damn good book because of all the businesses wanting to get associated with the doctor. Could well be. Cos you never know. One of the things I I I found it very difficult to start with I must admit is that to to prejudge that people would or would not go in. Now if I point out that it's in bold erm and it preempts a question that generally comes up and that is if we er we will pay thirty percent up to a hundred miles one way away from home and er if we had to send you, and it's a big if I have to say it's a big if in especially in the medical practice side, if we had to send you more than a hundred miles we will pay another five percent. However, our top earners are top earners because of two things. I may have mentioned one and that is that not satisfied with one deal a day Yes. and also they ask for those thirty five percenters. And they are quite happy to put up with what I would term the inconvenience of going there and back each day Yeah. more than a hundred miles. I have to say I did my assignments I went there and back I didn't I didn't mess around with staying away. It was an extra cost but also I learned in the end like the top earners do er and I guess I was mister average because I was coming in to do this job not that one, erm I I decided or worked out that I could do two or three deals in a day between a certain hour. So I didn't travel during rush hour and I didn't travel back during rush hour. And these top earners have it to a tee. They will do it between eleven and three thirty. And they will have done their work. The company has no problem with that because you're you know if if you're doing the business you're happy because you're getting the commission. Yep. Okay well that that's in simple terms and you've got this to take away for you to study erm then that we we that's the that's the sort of earning potential you have and it's there Yes. especially on this side. And will certainly help pay the mortgage. Yes right good. Now we will pay all those commissions on the basis of you achieving er first of all the sale but also a minimum amount of paper work. And I have to say that this is the minimum I've ever seen for a sales person to have to do. But it has to be absolutely right. Er that which makes it as critical as as a lot of er paper work. It's critical to get it right because there are situations where if you don't get it right then they have to hold some commission back and that's a pity. That's an excellent incentive to get it right. I made absolutely certain I never sent in a duff contract. Because it is it is very simple if you follow the guidelines and I'm gonna point out one or two things why it's essential that you do not make an appointment to go and see people unless they know everything up front. First of all the major documentation we've got is the contract and there we have six companies and we have the same contract for all six. Just the difference is the colour. Right. All right. If you're colour blind then it's it's a pity. May be it's good for you I don't know. Er no because if you have a hundred hundreds of these arriving on the er on the doorstep on Monday then you need to er know exactly which company they've got to go into. But they're all the same so that if you are er with which is the medical side and an opportunity arose for some other reason for you to transfer to another group we haven't got to retrain you. Right. Because they all do the same thing. But some of the things you need to point out before you go round is that you do want a thirty five percent deposit of the first year's payment. I take it a cheque is that acceptable? Er oh yes. Yes. Yes in fact that's the only way you should take it. Erm thirty five percent and you will have worked you will te you will be able to tell them that on the phone. Once you've agreed the price if that's a thousand pound or thousand pound page then you want thirty five percent of the first year's payment. And you have a little chart to help you do that. But if you haven't got one you make it up yourself. But the other thing that you have to er be erm very clear about is er on on the monetary side is if there are two signatories to the cheque, right? both of them need to have signed it. But the other important is that they both have to sign the banker's order. So you tell them about the thirty five percent you tell them about the banker's order that will need signing. How many signatures on the banker's order fine can you make sure mister Fred Smith is with you as well? Yeah. when it comes in. Cos you cannot if you left this with anybody you'd never see it again. You kept phoning back for it, oh I've lost it, it's gone through the system, tell you what scrub round it next time you're around I'll I'll go into the booklet. Erm and also we take take the second year's payment a year later. Now that's a good sales pitch because a lot of people think you've got to Find all the money up front. Find all the money. So it's in effect three stages. Thirty five percent about two months later when when they get their proof okay we take the balance balance of the first year through that banker's order. We take the second year's payment a year later. So it's in a three stage payment in effect. Now if you get and this of course once again will be gone through in much more detail er on the training school. That will generate two out of the three things we want, that's the contract and the cheque all right? The third th the other thing is of course we need to know what they want in their ad. Yes. This is the form once again they're colour coded. This is the form we use to send the copy in either attached to this form or at least erm a basis of a design down here. Now we don't want our sales consultants to be graphic arts experts because we have right the way back in in head office People who know how to do it properly yes . Loads of people doing it. We've got twenty year's experience thousands of ads on our on our records. Most of our advertisers have have been in something or other before. It's a very rare situation where they've never advertised. Yes. Okay. Erm if they haven't then you just get a few ideas, got a graphics pack and you say well is this the sort of thing you want, well this is what the er the builder did last time. That's right you show them something You can show them samples. But in the main we will lift whatever they want if they've got something like that in existence if not we'll do it for them. And it's at no extra cost that's all built into the price. So they don't have to go to an advertising agency or a graphics designer to have it all drawn up we'll do that for them. And at proof stage is when we pay your bonuses. Yeah. And that's because we've got the the balance of the first year's payment. And those are the three things get that right plus a compliment slip and a letter heading, because if we have to lift a logo if that if we had to lift that off er you know photocopy won't er photocopy won't do, so we we take a compliment slip or letter heading. This is of course the most important document. Yeah. Ju ju just Yes any questions? Well just an observation really. Aha. If er I'm gonna be taking thirty five percent er up front Thirty percent thirty five percent if you earn more than a hundred No no sorry Oh I beg your pardon the deposit cheque. Yeah yeah. We've had that's that's the observation I was gonna make, that's er just so happens that that almost the amount that's gonna be turned round to me the following week that that Aren't we clever? Yeah very good. Yes. Oh yeah we we if if it's if you're on a thirty percent and mo which most of them would be if you're on a thirty percent commission assignment then the other five percent just goes in the pot. If you're on a thirty five percent then we're covered. And our belief is that we've got money to pay you that's why we don't delay in paying you. No no it's that's er Okay? that's very reassuring . That's the point. Yes. Oh well that's fine er I mean Howard 's concept is absolutely brilliant erm and it ca it makes our assign our consultants very happy. We had seventy at the beginning of last year, I think I may have said on the phone, a hundred a sixty five right now. Yeah. And we're going for three hundred this year. Well that's another reason I'm sat here is the fact that er you know you've actually doubled it. Big growth. And this is the this is a typical example this is my la my last but one assignment last but one commission form, I would pick one of the good ones wouldn't I? Erm but this is a this is an average okay. The the reason the total down the bottom is cos of the bonus er element. But we we put down the I've crossed out position number it is size, erm er we took this from another sheet Yep. okay? Erm and we forgot to change it that's all. Each consultant has it's ow er his or her her own unique number, so does the assignment, we list the position, the advertiser's name in brief, the practice we're working at and the town. What I've just described is a full and complete contract. There are organizations like BUPA hospitals and some others erm who have special arrangements with us where we don't need a deposit cheque and we don't need a banker's order but we do need an official order from the hospital. Yes. That replaces those two things. You still get your commission. You know in full. Unless they've changed it but I think it is. There's the erm er the value of the contract per year, there's a first year you know it's just the the co cost of the ad thirty percent that's what the commission was worth and it's nice to come out with a signature for a erm and this was a charity one so they got it slightly less, erm er and know that you've just earned yourself that much. That's Yeah. why you know dealer day like that was we're we'd be quite happy about. This figure here is in effect what we would should be looking for per week. Right. If we if we home in on something like that two eight three thousand then we're going to be earn earning that much for ourselves. Now I mentioned bonuses paid at proof stage. As soon as an assignment has been fully proofed it goes on to a list which is published every two months to all of the sales execs and you just look out for your number, all right? and you've got your own personal records of course , if you know you've earned bonus then that's where to claim it. I emphasize the word claim because that's exactly what it I I mean. It's not paid automatic because some people, well first of all we don't know the precise dates when the proof is going to go out and also some people like to leave it there. To pay tax, pay holidays, Yeah. buy a new car. Some guy took his er bonuses after two years recently and I think he got somewhere in the region of six thousand pound. Not a bad lump. Safe as houses, you don't forfeit it by not claiming it it's just you you know you you as and when you need it. Yep. And all that all that, yes? all that documentation if you get it in there by Monday we pay all the money int straight into your bank that week. Can I can I on that particular one er you the value of the contract's two eight six O, so how many er brochures would er publish? Based on that because it falls below the No that's one week. All right? That's one week's Oh that wasn't the complete No no no. No that's just one week assignment. Sorry. I may have put three in of those for one assignment. Mm. That's a nice week. It's a nice week. But that's an average week you see for a lot of people. You imagine what the guy was putting down for his fourteen thousand pound booklet. Yeah. He had twenty nine different categories of advertising. That's not bad it's an all time record. And providing all that document done let's face it it is simple providing you make sure that people er the advertiser knows what you're what you're looking for before you go round there then there shouldn't shouldn't be too much problem. No that's okay admin doesn't hold any terrors for me. Well you have to do it. You you see the important thing is that that contract has to be done in front of the and so does the copy, so does the cheque so they're all done on the spot. There's not anything waiting for you to get home to. Yeah. You can't change you can't change anything on there because the guy's signed it. So once you've done that in front that's that out the way, the copy out of the way. You may have to wait for one or two things but you know like like copy sometimes but I didn't used to send them s erm er contracts in unless they had everything. Yes. I was prepared to go back and copy. As long as you've got that contract and that deposit cheque that's the crunch. Well there you go. Of interest? Yep yep. It's er Okay well I know I know you said that you were looking at one or two other things and quite honestly I would expect you to be. Erm Er you one must be reminded that er it's only three weeks today from when I was made redundant Sure. so er and I've er been pursuing all sort of avenues. Not not just self employed but obviously the the traditional route er as as well. Er I mean I've written off er cold er letters to Are you doing networking really networking you see Well marketing marketing itself . Yeah yeah yeah. Yeah yeah. Er as well as applying for er vacancies that appear in newspapers as well as er registering myself with er agencies with whom I've been in contact Okay. er within the past. Er an obviously that's generated a number of appointments and some interest at this stage. Er and er well I look to to myself and my family to to make sure that er I don't just jump without fully reviewing the opportunity's that are available for me. Well I I would have said on the phone that under normal circumstances if you're salaried or have been salaried I don't talk people into this unless they're a certain age. Anybody over forty I say it is a legitimate time to talk to people about self employment. Now erm in the main the most the people who go and talk, if they talk genuinely to their their other half or I always say partner instead of, nowadays that's politically correct I think, erm then they so they're they're a lot of the times they're talked out of it. I it's it's a pity to be talked out of out of what we've got but er it it it's a case, sorry I say talked out of it it's discussions and erm you have to say that most er ladies look at saying well now what can you promise me every week Mm mm. aspect. However, I don't think you're gonna get a better commission only er package from whatever direction that this. Well I mean obviously I'm the obvious alternative is er financial planning to to Financial services? Financial services financial planning yeah. Let me tell you that's the graveyard at the moment. Yeah well it er it may well be . Eighty five percent turnround in staff. That's not my figures that's the financial services figures. It it's obviously er er route that I've looked at but this certainly appeals to me a damn sight more than er that. I mean I know ju a simple little thing but er telephone calls will be made from the practice. Yeah? Mhm yep. No cost at home. Which is er it's it's a concern. You're on the move every three every three weeks you get to know another group of people. Mm. You don't have to don't have to procure my own leads. No. All you have to do provide is your own car. It's okay about that. You've got that. Yeah got that done that with a bit of Well as long as you've got a car I don't want to hear that. As long as you've got a car. Yeah. Er you cannot No I mean I do One of these guys has always had a company car. Er my company car er has gone back and er well until I find out where I'm gonna end up I'm not gonna dive in and purchase another car just er for my No. exclusive use. No we we provide a training course er Douglas so erm all right. What I'd like to agree on though is at least a date Okay. when providing you know depending on what else happens that I can say that here's a date and that individual will start at. It er we are expecting him for the course on that date. Right. If we go you know. Let me just explain exactly what we do. Erm the training course er as I said two days er I'll count it as a full training course. Training course er involves two days out in the field, told you Yes. that. Er that's not necessarily in Scotland it could be somewhere else but we er pay you travelling and your and your hotel. Understood. All right. Up to a certain limit. Erm if you stay in the er Imperial Hotel every er time you go out that's up to you . Erm and then three days in head office okay. Now you said you you had a number of other er options that you were looking at which I understand. Yes. And you said that by the end of next week you will you will have done those and know whether you want them and whether the companies probably yes? Basically yes. Okay. So if we're looking at that being the week ending oh sorry week commencing thirty first of January is next week all right? Mhm. If we looked at erm the week commencing seventh of February as being the two days out that would be from the ninth er that would be the tenth and the eleventh of February. Would that be er be about just over two weeks? So the two day two days out and then the following week on the Yes. Yes I'll go for that. Oops. Right? Okay so that's in effect the tenth isn't it. We've just changed some of the had to have some of my little notes down there. Yes Thursday the tenth of February. So my two days are the tenth That's right. and eleventh. Yeah I'll drop all this down for you so you don't need to make any notes. Thursday the tenth of February on Wednesday the ninth, now this is all on the assumption that everything is going for us Right. rather than what you're what other options you have. I would have expected you to be doing that. If I can ask you to read through this for me before you and it will tell you exactly what will happen during your training Yep. in head office and out in the field. Okay. The course erm temporarily is being held in the Grand Hotel in while we er extend our training school because we're doing two more rooms on to the training school. There will obviously be the opportunity to catch sight of head office yeah? Oh yes. In fact if you'll if you look in here you you get a it starts off with a tour of er head office and all our facilities there. And now accommodation has been provisionally reserved for you for that date. What I need you to do is to phone the hotel direct and confirm you're arriving. No problem. Right? If you read all this it will tell you exactly. There's a map and the Grand is just about there. Yep. Somewhere around there. That's an er an expenses form and you know bring this information with you to the in-house course, the three days in-house erm because they'll ask you for that at the end of. Okay? If I can ask you to read that Yep. at some time. Now we pay we pick up the tab at the Grand Hotel for those three days in-house. Now if we have to send you out fur you know er with a trainer or top person who where you need to stay away we will pay. We will always pay your travel costs whichever you know whichever er er second of the training course you're on. Erm we will pay bed breakfast and evening meal up to thirty pound a night and I have to say the trainers will always know of some good deals. Right. All right? That was only if on that Thur on that Mon Thursday and Friday if you have to stay away on the Wednesday night and the Thursday night then we cover that. Okay. The rest of it's picked up by us anyway. Can I ask you just to sign that to say you know that and there's a copy here for you. Yes please print your name. I wouldn't have anywhere near that signature. Oh it's in there somewhere. It's in there somewhere. It's years of practice. Yeah it's amazing you know I was watching my son my son when he was about eleven or twelve practising his signature. And it was it was so nicely written I I saw it the other day it was no difference. Read both words. Oh and mine mine is very readable. Okay. So I just put up there Right I've got everything there. I just need your photograph er Douglas for security. This is becoming quite popular this method now. A lot of clients that I had when Is it polaroid? Yes yes. It's on the on the spot thing. We do we do allow people Tie straight? Tie's straight yes you you can smile good. Sometimes er when especially the the er older element have been so delighted that we've offered them an opportunity because everybody else has said they're too old and after all this they're getting really excited want to come and then they look so glum in the photographs and I say well come on I said you can you can smile you know. Was it just me that was excited you said. That's right yeah. Yeah. All this will be confirmed in writing to you Douglas. Sure. Obviously I'd be delighted if you choose to come this direction but I understand of course that you have other options to look at. Yeah. What one question I should have asked Ask ask any When er when we were on the subject of er the the labour turnover er in the insurance industry, what is the turnover in ? Well er if you looked at the I'll give you one or two averages and and I have to say that these are figures that are a mixture of what we know from the industry and what we what we know from our own company. The current financial services turnover and this has this has been published in the Financial Times and the Telegraph is somewhere in the region of between eight five and ninety percent. Now that is massive because of all the new er erm it they made it very difficult for independents to survive. Oh yes with er Yeah absolutely. and so forth. And also the the elongated period where they can claw back commission from you. That's been a disaster for people. Two to four years after you left for instance the Pru or one or two other companies they can still claw back commission if somebody cancels a life Yeah. that's part of the contract. Now I certainly would never sign anything that erm required me to do that. Er and then the direct sales averages somewhere around sixty percent. Now we're going to be somewhere between forty and forty five percent. So in that sense we're below average. It's not bad. And that's not bad. When you consider No it's not bad in in my my sort of retail career and that somewhere between thirty and thirty five Oh well er was was the norm Yes. er in managerial positions. Yes yes. In assistants particularly with part time you're talking of the order of fifty to fifty five percent. Yeah we we we're we're we wouldn't have retained those out of a hundred and er what is it a hundred and ten people. Er was it ninety five people er over the last year we retained. You know coming from seventy to hundred a sixty five in fact when had their sales meeting last Friday it was observed that the sales force in the er which were gathered which we do every two months in the in the major suite the training suite er conference suite at head office er that was the total number of sales execs we had in January the previous year. Whereas that was one group that had the same number in fact more than that we had ninety people there. That's how we've grown and partic and particularly . I take it a number of er execs have been with the company for a Yes. a similar number of years as yourself. Yes top earners. Yeah top earners. And even even sorry even some of the mister averages or miss there are some very successful ladies. In fact a lady picked up all awards er last week last Friday she cleared almost cleared the floor she was so good. Okay Douglas all that will be in writing to you. All right then. Look forward to you erm making a decision to come with us but er that's in your hands. Okay thanks very much. We can certainly offer you everything you need on a self employed basis. It certainly does sound very attractive to to me Rod. Good. talk started some many years ago. It says legal aspects as you can imagine the chances of dealing with all the possibilities of legal aspects in retirement is is is nonexistent. So in fact I've always concentrated and what people have wanted is some specific direction namely wills dying and what happens if you haven't done something about it . Now that was said many years ago Oh well the last thing anyone wants to do when they're going on a retirement course is to talk about dying. But as you may discover at the end of your course you'll have a questionnaire to say how found it, how it's gone on and of course in the past people have filled in questionnaires saying what they want to know about the legal aspect is all about wills. So wills is what you're going to get mostly . Now we've got a good long a session and hour and a quarter and tea afterwards. So er I don't mind at all being interrupted if anyone has questions as we go along please shout them out it gives me a little breather with me voice and gives a chance to deal with things in the right place if need be. If you can't hear me at the back because my voice drops from time to time then shout away because I'm not always aware of how well it carries. Er and er we'll see how we go. Now you are actually going to be guinea pig for me because I've been doing these for about ten years and I've decided for ten years is getting perhaps a little stale. I've heard myself say it an awful lot of the time, so one of my colleagues who's done one I've I've nicked his er I'm gonna give his lecture or his talk which probably means I shall get my my tongue in a twist an an an and not quite see where I'm going. So if I sort of stumble and start now and again you'll get an idea of what the problem is. So wills. Firstly what's a will, we all think we know what a will is. In practice it's a piece of paper that's been written out by you or at your direction to say what is to happen to all your goods and chattels and property when you die. Of course although we're talking about dying and nobody wants to think about dying let's remind ourselves it's the only certainty in this life. We're all going to go off one day and there's nothing better than planning for it. And making will is planning for your eventual demise. Now the good reasons for making a will. First one is to avoid the intestacy rules. As you can imagine if you don't what's going to happen to what you've got somebody else is going to say for you. In this case the somebody else is the law, the law provides what is to happen. The problem is that the law makes its intelligent decision as to what it thinks should happen which may accord with your wishes. But if you haven't said so we don't know what your wishes are and the law will come along. And the law does things a little bit differently to what some people imagine. How many of you Can I just ask hands up, think if you die everything you go Everything you have goes to your spouse? Husband or wife. Sorry you're wrong. Erm it's a common mistake and people think Don't need to make a will it'll all go to me wife. It's not true and of course wife might not survive. Who gets what depends on who you leave and how much you leave. And we've got a little chart here which I shall go through. I know you may not all be able to see it but reasonably clear. First of all who you leave. Whether or not you leave the surviving spouse makes a different. Whether or not you leave children makes a difference. If you've got a spouse and children then the spouse is going to get household goods and personal effects, the ordinary everyday things in the house and the first seventy five thousand pounds. And a life interest in half the residue. The half of the residue is going to go to those issue, children grand children whatever. And when your surviving spouse has finally run his or her course and the life interest comes to an end then the remaining half will go to the children as well. Now as you can imagine it depends what you leave and where you leave it as to how effective that is going to be on how er distressing that's going to be. There's been an article in the paper very recently saying they're going to bring out some proposals to change those intestacy rules shortly after easter they haven't come out yet. As it says in the article You own house and live in Surrey your surviving spouse is not going to get a great deal of the house. If you live in Grimsby then okay cos the house isn't going to be worth seventy five thousand pounds. So that's a critical point. What's the house worth? I'm dealing with two estates where no will has been made and the house was in the name of husband alone who died without a will and the net result is that on on law on intestacy neither of the those surviving widows is of right entitled to the house and in both cases there are children and as you can imagine there is a certain amount of anguish about it . If you haven't got any issue but parents or fore brother or sister or the issue of that say it's your nephews or nieces and you've still got a spouse of course, she still isn't get She or he is still not going to get the whole lot. She gets a bit more a hundred and twenty five thousand pounds now and an absolute interest in half the residue. And it's only if there is no spouse that matters go rather more as might expect, namely firstly always the children or the issue if they aren't any of those to your parents brothers an sis er issue of parents therefore brothers sisters nephews and nieces. None of those back as far as grandparents and issue of grandparents so uncles and aunts cousins. That's as far as it goes. . Excuse me. None of those and the chancellor of the exchequer is rubbing his hands and saying Goody goody th there's money for my coffers cos he is the one who is going to step in and take it all, so the people will argue the obvious ones are, firstly somebody you live with but are not married to. Secondly the child of perhaps a second husband or wife so your stepchildren if you have any. You may treat them as your children since they were two years old but if they're not a blood relative of yours they won't be inheriting anything anyway however close they may be. And the third o category that come into mind are your husband or wife's nephews and nieces. The people because you don't have children who are very close to you because they're your spouse's nephew and niece but they're not your nephew and your niece. And I've had some instances where those entirely. There's your intestacy rules that's what the law's going to say about it all and that's what will happen if you don't make a will. Pause to check notes. Done the intestacy bit. Erm there is to give you a little bit of an idea of hoe those rules would apply and who comes into it A well known family tree for you just to look at. And see how wide it can be and also in some respects how remote it can be. These are the sort of people who come in the Queens family tree. Move that up a bit so a little better. Those are the people who would have benefited or taken in to account should the Queen have died without a will. And you get quite remote as you can see people you hardly know you know er fairly distant cousins er but you also get fairly close people who don't get consideration at all. Just an indication for you there. Now we've all seen the intestacy there's another little bit I like to deal with at this point er which is to do with inheritance tax. Or taxes generally. . The reason I throw that in is because it doesn't conveniently come under wills anywhere, but it's relevant to you. You've seen you've seen figures for intestacy. Inheritance tax has different figures. And exemptions and allowances. And there's a little table telling us about inheritance tax. Now that usually alters every year. The intestacy rules and the figures don't. The last time they were altered was I think about nineteen seventy nine or nineteen eighty one. Tax,exemptions, reductions, everything to your spouse is exempt. Gifts to charity are exempt. Reductions they've actually altered those in the last b budget, er which has benefitted particularly the business property element. But essentially with agriculture woodland works of art and so on you have re reduced values to put in your estate. Once you've taken those into account, there's a nasty figure at the bottom. Forty percent. Which is not as nasty as it was ten or fifteen years ago, but it's still a lot of money if you come into this bracket. Forty percent above a hundred and fifty thousand pounds. Now the chancellor's being very nasty this year, he's not increased that limit at all. It was a hundred and fifty thousand pounds last year, a hundred fifty po thousand this year and whether he will put the breaks on it next year cos he needs the money, I don't know. Reaction of most people is to say What a lot of money, we don't get anywhere near that. Why am I bothered about inheritance tax. Answer sit down and work out what you're worth, not alive not what you can spend. Which is what we like to know about, but what you're worth when you're gone. And of course if it's a husband and wife, the two of you together should be thinking of this sort of information because you can do something about it in your will. You got your house it'll be paid for won't it by now? Or hopefully. You've got those insurance policies, they're coming good soon, you're going to spend them on your world cruise I know, but you might not quite make the world cruise. And then there's things that come in like superannuation may be, pension payments if you're in a scheme, lump sum repayments the sort of things that you can't spend but if you're not here they may be going into the pot. So before you decide that you're not worth a hundred and fifty thousand pound do actually sit down and work it out. There are few people I think who've been rather surprised at the amount concerned. Again I'll mention the two cases I'm dealing with where there've been no wills and surviving spouses who are not getting anything. In one of those two cases we've had inheritance tax to pay. So it was over a hundred and fifty thousand pounds in total. And that again was a bit of a shock to the family concerned. They really didn't understand or realize that they were worth so much. So think of your tax because when you make a will you can something about that tax. you can make use of exemptions and just a charity. Husband and wife again particularly to plan a will so that it all ends up with the children if that is eventually what you want with no tax payable or a a a reduced amount of tax. Now this comes into sort of preparing what you ought to have ready when you're about to make your will. Now I hope you're going to see a solicitor to make a will. I shan't force you to but erm it's an important document and the biggest problem about wills is that when anybody gets to look at it you're not around to say what you meant. And if you haven't made it clear what you meant erm either the court will have to decide or somebody else will decide that it's different to what you intended. So it's a document well worth taking professional advice about. So if you're going to that have a clear picture in your own mind as to what you want. You can tell the solicitor and he will say or she will say to you Good I understand that or Have you thought of this or No you can't do that as the case may be. And you may not have realized this but these many misunderstandings can be sorted out while you're still here to to agree 'em. You need to know what you've got, not precisely the solicitor doesn't want to know that you've a house and three insurances and two bank accounts and a building society. He wants you to know that you've got those and you've got a fair idea of how much you're leaving. And who of course you're leaving it to. How large is it? Your estate that is of course your estate in this context is everything you own. Your house your land your property your money, everything is going to come in to be dealt with via your will. If you and your wife or husband between you are worth more than a hundred and fifty thousand pounds this is where a bit of estate planning can come into effect in your will. Now you may want to leave everything to your surviving spouse and then on to the children, that's natural. If it's worth more than a hundred and fifty thousand pounds between you at the moment and you leave it all to your surviving spouse then when he or she dies in due course and if those figures haven't altered they'll be inheritance tax to pay. Say it's a hundred and sixty thousand pounds. ten thousand pounds over the limit not on your death but on your spouses death remember. Tax at forty percent, four thousand pounds to the chancellor of the exchequer, he'll be delighted, your kids will be wishing that they didn't have to pay it. they not really paying it themselves but they get four thousand less than they would. Now let's presume that you've got a couple of children and on the death of the first of you, you leave ten thousand pounds between those two children and the rest to your surviving spouse. Now that spouse is only worth a hundred and fifty thousand pounds when he or she dies not a hundred and sixty thousand pounds. Amount of duty, none. Hundred and fifty thousand pounds is the exempt limit so there's no inheritance tax to pay on the death of the survivor. Tax to pay on your death, none because you yourself are worth a h less than a hundred and fifty thousand pounds and your will have ten thousand pounds, free of tax. And it's as simple as that, all you have to concern yourself is does the surviving spouse have enough left to live on? And well most people manage with a hundred and fifty thousand pounds one way another. There's pensions coming in in any event. So that a little bit of simple planning is a way round inheritance for the benefit of the children and it's usually the children that people in the end want to benefit. May I ask a question? Of course, please do. Is there a limit to the amount you can leave to the children at that point? Erm you're effect erm limited to well no you could leave anything you like. But your own death, if your the death of the first of you and your spouse, have its own exception a er its own limit of a hundred and fifty thousand pounds. So if for instance you're quite well off and you have two hundred thousand pounds in your own estate that you want to leave, if you make it all to the children there would be an exemption of the first hundred and fifty thousand pounds and there would be tax payable on the fifty thousand. If you left hundred and fifty thousand to the children and fifty thousand to your spouse, there would be exemption gifts to spouse no tax on that, exemption first hundred and fifty thousand pounds to the children no tax on that, so on your death no tax. Your spouse would have her own estate plus the fifty thousand pounds that you left her. So if she's still worth under a hundred and fifty thousand pounds there'd still be no tax on her death either. If she made her estate more than a hundred and fifty thousand pounds there'd be some tax payable, so it's a question of how much you've got and both estates have got that exemption of a hundred and fifty thousand pounds. Would the receipt of that money, as a beneficiary affect my children's tax position? Erm th in certain ways. If it's inherited from an estate that of itself er attracts no tax, so there tax position would only be the income that they received from it would be subject to income tax and it would be added to their own assets so that when they die in due course then they've inheritance payable there. But there's no other tax er effects, there's no capital gains tax for instance on that transfer. Were you to transfer it during your life than there are certain possible tax er consequences depending on how long you live, but it's fairly rare for people to transfer substantial amounts during their life. Isn't it seven years? Up to seven years in practice. There are reductions up to four years, but again it would depend on how much your size of your estate is at the end of the day, when you do finally go as well. three years. Am I right in giving three thousand per year? You can give 'em three thousand a year to er in total to anybody you've got all the exemptions like two hundred and fifty pound in any one gift erm and you've got things like five thousand pounds on marriage of a child that you can give, and all these add up little cumulative bits here there and everywhere which helps you to dispose of an estate. Also if it's within your own normal income you can give anything, in other words if you don't reduce your capital. And you happen to live frugally but have a good income you can give the spare income away without subject to any tax. So there are plenty of ways of disposing of little amounts Every bit you dispose of from your capital every hundred pounds saves forty pounds in tax, if you're at that sort of level. Could you tell me, if you and your spouse are both killed at the same time Yep. and your estate's worth a hundred and sixty thousand Mhm. pounds, and you've willed it to go to your children after your spouse, Mhm. I presume they would have to pay tax?. Yes because in practice what the will would say is that the spouse would have to survive for twenty eight days,th the usual phraseology. If not erm then if your spouse died the day after you for instance, you had a road accident or something like that and you've left it all to her, she'll take it all and then it'll add it would be added to her estate it as well and make the inheritance tax bill bigger. But if you've made a twenty eight day clause then yes it'll go to the children a hundred sixty thousand pounds and there'd be tax payable on ten thousand pounds. But that's the same as if you willed spouse had died before you for instance, and you were the second of two to die and she hadn't or she might have everything to the children and you still got a hundred and sixty thousand pounds, you can't avoid the inheritance tax in those circumstances. at Dunkirk, he was killed in a car crash with his wife both killed instantly. Right. any sort of implications there? Oh yes, Oh yes. He had retired he'd retired about ten years. Depends what and how this is where we get husband and wife survivorships. What happens depends on whether or not you made a will to start with. So if you don't know who's died first and there's intestacy, I E no will made, neither survives the other. The husbands property will go to his side of the family, the wife's property will go to her side of the family, which doesn't matter if there are children cos obviously the children are both. It matters much more if you haven't got children you're talking about brothers and sisters and all their children. If you've got a will however, the elder dies first which is why we have these twenty eight day clauses, you know the man is sixty, the wife is fifty five and they're both killed together. There's a will and the man left everything to his wife, she will get it all if if we haven't put in this clause which technically says, Leave it all to my wife if she survives for twenty eight days. It's to cover just these circumstances where there can be something like a a car crash. But does it matter as when you think that she may not have made a will, because then everything will go to her er next of kin as one says,intestacy rules. And if it's for instance a second marriage husband's side of the family could be missing out all together. Even if it's a first marriage the husband's side of the family would miss out altogether. But then you've got that bit at the bottom. Property owned as joint tenants goes to the younger. Now joint tenants is a legal term sensible place to describe it as it's come up which is what husband and wife often own property as. Buying a house husband and wife will usually As a joint tenancy, it should be explained to you. The alternative way of holding property is as tenants in common. The best of describing it is If you are joint tenants, say it's a house and there's of you, you both own all the property. One of you dies, the remaining one still owns all the property cos he or she always has done so and therefore it belongs to that person. If you're tenants in common, you will each own half the property or such proportions as been agreed. One of dies, the other one still only owns half the property and therefore the half of the one who's died can be left by will or go under an intestacy. If it's something like a bank account, the indication is Who can draw it out. You have a bank account where either of you can sign, one dies the other can still sign and therefore it belongs entirely to that survivor. If it's a bank account where you've both got to sign before you can draw the money, one dies the other can't draw it out because you can't have two signatures so it's tenants in common and it would be split in accordance with whatever the agreed proportions were. So there's a goodly complication in that . Easier to have wills. Just going back to the intestacy thing you started with. Mhm. If it's the joint ownership of the first type you described there Joint tenants, yes. Yeah and also joint bank accounts. Yes. Does the seventy five thousand only operate on stuff beyond that? Yes, if you have Well it's the same whether it's an intestacy or a will. If it's jointly owned property as joint tenants it will pass to the survivor. Therefore y it does not matter whether there is will or not because it passes to the survivor independently of what a will may say. Whether it's a will whether it's an intestacy the survivor takes because the survivor can deal with it, in the way that I've described. And therefore it doesn't matter what the will may have said erm I mean it doesn't matter what the intestacy may be er that survivor takes it and it goes to the survivor outside of the will and you do not deal with it. The er I I shall pull back slightly on that comment in that, if it's jointly owned property it's outside the will you therefore don't have to prove the will to deal with that property, but if it is a large estate and you are dealing with other assets, when you do your inland revenue account you also have to refer to property you may have had the power of dealing while you were alive and that would include jointly owned property. So if you're doing an inland revenue account for the tax man in other words inheritance tax and you've got the bank account in joint names with thirty thousand in it. He'll want to know about half that bank account, fifteen thousand pounds. But if you don't have to contact the inland revenue, because you don't need to prove the will because the estate is too small then you don't have to tell him about the jointly owned property. It's erm an area where two elements of the law don't quite meet tidily and For instance if you worth four hundred thousand pounds big figure, and you had a hundred thousand of it in your own name and three hundred thousand jointly with your wife, wife die er you die, your estate for probate purposes is a hundred thousand pounds. That's what you've got to prove a will for, the three hundred thousand pounds has gone to your surviving spouse as a jointly owned property. Hundred thousand pounds you do not have to submit an inland revenue account, therefore you don't need to tell them about the three hundred thousand pounds and therefore you won't pay inheritance tax. But if your figure was above hundred and twenty five thousand pounds you'd have to fill int an inland revenue account. You'd put your hundred and twenty five thousand pounds down, you'd also put down half of the jointly owned property because you could have dealt with that while you were alive and you'll end up paying large amounts of inheritance tax. And th it's a it's a it's a strange situation but if you've got a smaller estate you'll get away with it, and if you've a larger one you've got to tell them about it. And there's absolutely no provision for erm correcting that. It's just a fact. Right we preparing . How does the inland revenue police the system whereby if your estate is to Mm. small to need to go to them. Yeah. Who decides it's too small? There are specific l l l levels. When you apply for a grant, be it by way of proving a will or of administration which is when there is an intestacy, part of the er documentation is an oath where you swear as to the size of the estate. You have to swear usually that it's under a hundred and twenty five thousand pounds. If that is the case you don't have to complete and inland revenue account. If it's above a hundred and twenty five thousand pounds you do have to complete that account and you won't get the grant from the probate registry until you have done that. On top of that they have a random check system whereby a number of estates are sampled. Essentially they will send a form out saying You've recently got a grant estate, you've said it's worth say twenty five thousand pounds, we're checking up please let us have a list of assets and liabilities. So it's a sort of spot check to see how things go. Who swears the oath? The executor or administrator. If it's a will it's the executor or the one executor of the number of them who are proving it. If it's an administration I E there's no will it's the er next of kin which in this context is the person next entitled to the estate so surviving spouse or surviving children if there isn't a spouse. And if the solicitor got it wrong it's the executor who takes the blame. It depends what it is that's wrong. Erm it's the executor's job to administer the will but if it's known that there's a mistake of course the executor on behalf of the estate can sue the solicitor. mistake is obvious like one estate I'm dealing with which is a half home-made will I E it wasn't made by a solicitor, I suspect it was made by a barrister I suspect it was a barrister who was born abroad and it left three halves of the residual estate. Since we can't find out who did actually make it we can't sue anybody for all the costs that that involved in trying put it right. But if a solicitor had made it and put three halves we could take an action against that solicitor or the executor could to erm for the costs of going to court to find out what on earth the will meant. National Curriculum Key Stage One . Not good ones I hope. And so you've going to see a solicitor, you know what assets you've got, you know who your family and dependents are. In theory you can leave your estate to who ever you like. Cats' home, your mistress round the corner, one of the children and not the others, however you like. In practice if you don't take proper account of who is entitled erm there will be proceedings after you've gone. You've got to have in mind Who are your family and dependents? If you're keeping your spouse because you have the assets and he or she doesn't, there's no good leaving nothing to the spouse, unless that spouse is rich in his or her own right Rich in comparative terms, then there may be good reasons not to live him or her anything because you'd rather leave it to the children. Again we're saving the inheritance tax as I mentioned. That'll be okay. Children it's usually safest to leave it to children but not every family warrants that there are circumstances that mitigate against. The classic one of the unmarried daughter who stays at home to look after parents for instance. That's an unmarried daughter that you should be giving due recognition to for the efforts that she may have put in. You may have a handicapped child who has special needs who er has a requirement for extra resources, you should think of that. Erm you shouldn't forget the children round the corner that your wife doesn't know about or your husband doesn't know about . They're young and you're still maintaining them when you're alive you can't pretend that they don't exist when the will comes along. Because if they don't know about it the mother or the father of that child will no doubt be coming along screaming I've been getting twenty five pounds a week for the last ten years and I've child on my own now. Er it's surprising how things come out in wills that have been kept quiet during the lifetime of the deceased. These people all need to be given thought. If you've given thought to them and excluded them, that's fine as long as you've made it clear. Husband or wife do get excluded for instance because the marriage has not been a particularly happy one erm and there would therefore be no particular one why the deceased would leave anything to spouses erm but it's worth saying so if that's the case, to prevent an action coming along and saying Oi why am I not being there, why have I been left out? You also need to have in mind, having decided who's getting everything, who's going to do it all for you. Your will tells y the world what your wishes are, somebody's got to carry your wishes out. That person or persons are your executors. Difference between executors and administrators I've mentioned it briefly before, executors are carrying out the will, administrators are dealing with an estate where there is no will. You can have anyone you like as your executor. It's not a position where A number of people have the idea that it can't be a beneficiary, it can, it often is a beneficiary for the obvious reason that if the beneficiaries are getting the goodies, why not make them do the work necessary to get hold of them? simple as that. but there are often good reasons why the beneficiary and the executors are not the same . First of all of course is your spouse. Why not appoint him or her? that may be sensible, the younger you are, the more sensible it is. When you come to retirement age, whilst not suggesting that you are past it, you are planning ahead for the time where you may not be quite as capable as were. If your not your spouse may not be either. So yes your spouse might be getting all your assets, but if you're going o be seventy five or eighty by the time you've gone and your spouse is seventy four or seventy nine or whatever, he or she may be a little bit past the running around that's necessary the actual practicality of it. If you've got children let them do the work survive the parents, erm as long as they're the sensible sort who can do it and aren't going to fall out with parents and are going to be round. But that's the sort of thing you have in mind, have someone who's a bit younger than yourself. Erm because it is an onerous task, erm onerous in terms of the time that needs spending doing the job even if it's relatively simple in terms of what needs to be done it still takes time and there's still running around to do. Not everyone unfortunately has children so you may have to cast around for other members of the family. Brothers sisters, they're the same age as you more or less, not necessarily a good idea. Nephews and nieces might be a better bet erm those are the sort of people have in mind. You might have to go outside the family, it could be next-door neighbours, or friends from work or social club or wherever. When you're getting outside the family you've got to be careful to make sure that they are people that are prepared to do the job, that they understand what's involved because you cannot force anyone to be an executor. Just by naming them doesn't commit them to do anything, they may say Well he never asked me I'm not doing that. And you've got difficulties because there they are appointed executor they're not doing their job, nobody else there to do the job, somebody's got to sort that out. So do think of that. And then at the end of the day not everybody has even friends or neighbours that they'd want to impose on? Or be involved in. They don't think that they'd want to know. Or should want to know. You may need to turn to professional advice. Solicitors, accountants banks perhaps. I'll go through those. If you've got a business you've probably got an accountant. A sensible choice simply because he or she will know a lot about your financial affairs in any event, and therefore is going to know what to look for and how to deal with it. Solicitors well they will know something about your affairs possibly, because of hav to dealing with houses, other difficulties you may have come across form time to time. Banks, yes you deal with banks and er they know a lot about your affairs because you've got your bank account and it goes through their hands and the know all about that. But then banks is expensive Banks is. Steer clear of banks is my advice. I don't how many of you have seen or heard reference to the recent Which report about estates and managing that. It's typical Which, Problems with Wills I think it was called and then it came in the paper as Where There's a Will there's a Bill. Nice headline isn't it? It Rings if there wasn't a will there wouldn't be a bill perhaps? Where as in fact if there isn't a will the bill is usually bigger. And in the typical sort of way that lawyers get knocked these days erm we get lumped in with other people and the mud flies. Er reading this article or at least the heading from it and the bit in the paper, you got the impression that solicitors were as bad as banks. Read it in detail and you find that most of the examples given related to banks, and there was one relating to a solicitor. I'm sure that they could have found other examples where solicitors were not doing the job very well and were charging a lot of money because let's be realistic there are good solicitors and there are bad solicitors and I wouldn't pretend otherwise. I meet some of the bad ones er and see the work tat they do and I agree tat things aren't quite as they should be. But I've not yet met a bank who's good at it. Not necessarily in terms of the way the job is done, but in the cost banks really are expensive if you're minded to use a bank they do publish their tariff, they say they give them out to people, I suspect that it gets forgotten sometimes the principle is there the isn't. Study their rates and then decide to throw them into touch and get somebody else to do it. Because I used to say a solicitor would only cost half what a bank would. Looking at what the examples given by Which are concerned the solicitor was only charging about thirty percent of what the bank would. And it may have still seemed a lot of money at I think one thousand seven hundred and fifty pounds, I can't comment or not not having seen the size of the estate, but it compares quite well with the five thousand one hundred and sixty sixty pound Five hu Five thousand seven hundred and sixteen pounds that the Midland bank charge on the particular estate. Looking at this lot Barclays six thousand and seventy two. Lloyds five seven six, Midland four six two nine, Nat West four six four nine seven, solicitor one seven fifty. Well one thousand seven hundred and fifty might seem like a lot of money, but there actually is quite a lot of work in dealing with an estate. And I wouldn't say that that was an unreasonable charge. Erm it suggests that you should never appoint a solicitor or a bank for the reasons of cost. There I can't say that that is right you should never appoint a . Occasionally I even recommend a bank if you should work for a bank you can get the job done for practically nothing I understand and it might be worthwhile. Er and solicitors well they're there the point is about the solicitors among other things they can er mediate when you have the sort of family who are going to fallout and I'm afraid people do have families that are going to fall out. Not everybody does but there are some who do. if you've got an independent person doing the work they can say Well, we don't mind what you're doing falling out among yourselves the will says this and this is what we're going to do. And they can make sure that the wishes are properly carried out. They will of course charge for doing the job, but if you appoint somebody else as an executor and that person goes to see a solicitor the solicitor will also be charging for the job. the mere fact that they are appointed executor does not of itself increase the size of the bill. On the one hand you're giving them extra responsibility so yes the bigger might be bigger for that reason. But on the other hand they're not having to deal so much with another executor there isn't there hasn't got to be so much to and fro correspondence and therefore the workload will be somewhat less and that's likely to balance the extra responsibility element. So that the bill I would es estimate, if you have a solicitor as executor would be the same as if you had a private person as ex as executor who went to see that solicitor. What those costs may be I'm afraid I can't give you a good guide because depend on the amount of work. If you leave a complicated estate with lots of bits here there and everywhere and your affairs in mess and the solicitor's got to sort out he's going to have to do a lot of work for it. Whether you leave a lot of money or not. the size of the estate is a relevant consideration but no the only consideration. A big estate will cost you more than an identical but small estate because there is the responsibility element of it. There's the fact that if he gets it wrong he's lost more money and therefore his, you might say insurable risk is a higher one. I'm not saying that he will get it wrong or that he'll lose you the money, but that's the responsibility of . Can I ask another question? Mm. If in the course of erm a will being proved and Yeah. things coming to fruition, Mhm. and to raise money say to pay erm this forty percent tax Mhm. share holdings have to be sold. If they made a sale at a certain price. Right. And just a couple of days later shares are fluctuating Yeah. and they sold at a very low price and Mhm. a few days later there they were at a very high price. Mhm. Is the person doing the selling guilty of any irresponsible acts? Erm right . If it's known that they're up and down like Yeah. this. First thing is that they wouldn't actually be able to do that for the reasons you've stated. Shares would be in the name of the deceased, therefore can't be dealt with until you've got the grant to prove that you can deal with them. Therefore you can't sell them to raise the money to pay the tax because you've got to pay the tax before you can get the grant. So in that context the argument wouldn't arise, therefore any sale of the shares would take place after you've got hold of the grant and it may be necessary for other reasons like you've got bills to pay or a mortgage to discharge, whatever the reasons. Erm the answer would be no, they've got to be sold at sometime and nobody knows what the market is going to do. In practice if there are beneficiaries who are capable of being consulted, it's likely that one will say to those beneficiaries Right we need to raise some money, there's only the shares to do it with, we're proposing to sell them do you agree with that or would you prefer to have the shares and gives us some money? And then you've consulted somebody else and if the say no go ahead and sell the shares and if two days later they've gone through the roof it's unfortunate. It's just a fact, nobody could predict it and there for nobody would be liable. If they didn't consult? They would leave themselves open to criticism . Yes Just in time . they'd leave themselves open to some criticism erm because the beneficiaries of whoever otherwise may be entitled to the shares may have said I would like to have those shares. But they do actually have the power, presuming that the will is appropriately worded, to sell for any of the assets. And as long as their not acting in bad faith or er knowledge of a likely increase . you're unlikely to be able to do anything about it. Yeah. It happens erm I've handled a case myself where shares were valued at a particular amount on the death and er in due course they needed to be sold as part of the administration unfortunately they'd gone down er a fair amount in the mean time. Erm b but there was no reason why we should sit in wait in case they might go up because they might have gone down further. Beneficiary didn't want the shares so we sold the shares and there's no good time you know unfortunately none of us has crystal balls where the market is concerned. Good point then. You say you've got to pay tax before you get the grant of probate, but you might need the grant of probate before you can pay the tax. Yes. So what happens then? You've consulted a solicitor by now I hope. Erm if you're trying to do it yourself and in theory you can just . Erm it's one of life's conundrums, there are of course answers which solicitors should know about. Number one is that if there are National Savings of any sort, they can be utilized to pay tax. Erm you have to be in touch with the National Savings and they send the money direct so you don't actually get your hands on it. But that's one way round that's possible. Then there are the banks who will always be ready to lend you money to can it up so that it can pay. They may want security, er one case I've been del dealing with they wanted the share certificates depositing by way of some security for instance. But banks unfortunately do charge , negotiating fee and then interest at exciting rates, erm solicitors will do it sometimes, we've done it for clients where we know that it's not too large an amount and we know that there are assets easily obtained because that way the client saves the banks administration fee. We still charge the same interest rate that the bank would do because of course it's costing us that from from the bank on our own funds. But done it up to two or three thousand pounds for an estate, knowing that it evaluation. You always need a residuary gift. One rather exciting will home made will I hasten to add I dealt with last year, the lady of some who was not getting on with her husband and I think although I'm not absolutely sure that the handwriting is that of her sister and we have this form filled in and it mentioned the bank or special savings account and it mentioned the premium bonds and it mentioned everything in the back bedroom and the linen in the linen and the linen cupboard because she'd brought all this lot and it failed to appoint an executor and it failed to deal with the residuary estate it meant that technically there was a partial intestacy, as there was a partial intestacy the rules applied to that, first person to inherit? Her surviving spouse, the one she'd obviously done everything to make sure he didn't get a penny. Second thing was that having covered absolutely everything she wasn't any estate, or at least didn't appear to be any so the surviving spouse wasn't very interested in taking out a grant anyway cos it wasn't going to get him any funds, so we then have the job of doing what's called debarring him and basically he renounced his right to be of the administrator and we then had to go under the rules to find the next person which was one of the specific beneficiaries I E the sons. In fact we turned up some gas shares on the way, but er and a bit of cash, but that wasn't enough to pay the funeral accounts and she made no provision for paying any of the bills so I sold the gas shares towards paying the funeral account and then got shouted at by the er beneficiary children because I hadn't consulted them about selling the gas shares and I said Well, they have to be sold because there's bills to pay and there is no way of dealing with that. In the end part of there specific bequest had to be used to pay the balance of bills but there was a complaint about how long it had taken to sort out, and it taken long to sort out because it was a home made will that didn't make all the right provisions. Er a a and with a family row in in it as well you can imagine the work involved was a bit more than initially might have been expected and I got criticized because the bill was bigger than I had first estimated cos I didn't expect there'd be trouble from the father. So all that for the sake of paying thirty pounds or thirty five pounds to go and see a solicitor and make a will. Is it any reason why you shouldn't express it in percentage terms say twenty percent to this, thirty percent to that ten percent to In theory there isn't , in practice it depends how you word the rest of it. Er we're talking about residuary estate here and if you've made specific er gifts. Say you are leaving some to a named person, you have left that person, say ten percent. you've got to make provision if that person doesn't survive you because if the person doesn't survive you, ten percent of your will's not been dealt with. So you would be intestate towards the ten percent. What you actually do is not put it in percentage but in shares. So if you gave that person ten shares, gave ninety shares to somebody else it's a hundred percent in total, but if that person then dies cos you don't want any of his relatives to have it then there's only the ninety shares remaining and ninety shares will be one hundred percent. Because you don't know how big a share is until you know how many people are sharing it. I see. So you get away with that way but percentages is a phrase to avoid very in a will shares I though my granddad's will was that, yeah percentages you know exactly that. percentage of a fixed got there. Shares is a How many people are there dividing, a share is big or small depending on whether it's between two people or twenty people. Thanks . And that's the way around that little er Again it's something that you'll Doesn't occur to you until it's come upon you, you've dealt with it and you've realized it is a problem. And that's what solicitors should be doing. Erm. If you have more than one executor, Yeah. can you have an either or? Suppose you had three Mm. and can you make it so that two out of the three can deal with it. I'm thinking of people someone shall we say er Well I I've got two sons one lives locally and one lives a long way away. Mm. An You c You can er you can in fact have up to er you can find in you ex in your will as many people as you like but no more than four executors can prove at any one time. Erm so what I have to is an executor appointed provided he lived in the country for instance because his address was abroad at the time. What you would do in your case with children is probably appoint them all and then they don't all have to prove so they would hopefully discuss this at the time and say Well you know I'm a long way away why don't you two get on with. Or the fall out about it they could still all three prove. So you should make the decision in the first place. If they're abroad I suggest you leave them out, if they're still in the country I suggest you can leave them in. A lot of it's done through the post anyway. mm. Well I was taking your point about You know o o wives, about being the same sort of age. Yeah. Erm suppose I parted my wife and two children Could do. Erm but any two out of that. Yes what I It's usual to say is that I I desire or direct that no more than two should prove it. Erm I put that in In practice it's a bit unnecessary because it is not enforceable. And even if it were enforceable and there's three how would you decide which two of the three could do the job. The either they're all going to agree and there's no problem anyway, or they're not going to agree in which case you saying they've got to be two rather than three isn't going to help the situation. Er but yes you could put your wife and two children and if your wife is fit to do it she can do it, if she isn't the two children can do it instead or her and one of the children to help each other out. It's always a good idea ti have more than one executor because you don't know that your executor is going to survive you. Mm. Even if it's one of your children. Children die before parents unfortunately and have wills I let everything to my mother, Mother I leave everything to my son. Son died first the mother died five weeks later, we had wonderful fun getting that one sorted out. . Just another example of how things can go. One thing you can put in your will as well is your funeral arrangements. Some people are concerned about it and want to put specific details in. Although I do put details of funeral arrangements in will in connection with buried or cremated, in practice it's much better that you tell your intending executors what's intended, because sometimes the will isn't even opened until after the funeral. And if you haven't told people it may get One or two points now about the practicalities of making a will. If you've got some better idea of what's going to go in the wills . Straight forward thing is you need to be of sound mind, that's not difficult. Er Seriously it's not difficult. You've practically got to be committed under the mental health act before you're not sound enough to make a will. That or so er suffering form senile dementia or loss your memory, that you can't remember who you ought to have in mind. You can be schizophrenic and still make a will that . All you really have to do is to know what you have in terms of assets, and to know who you ought to have in mind in terms of your nearest and dearest. On my experience dealing with people is however forgetful they get you know nursing homes or residential homes or whatever and they can't really remember from one corresponding conversation to the next they still remember that they've got two children and that they own a bank account. good enough to make a will. The children can't make wills cos in law they're not of sound mind until they're eighteen and adults so any will supposed to be made by somebody aged fifteen which isn't going to be a will. It's in writing because it's got to be identified by somebody and your not around to say. It's no good telling the children You can have the grandfather clock when I go, it's with the will. And indeed as people get old or ill I find again from personal experience that they tend to give things to several people. comes along and come along I was promised this Oh I was promised this as well. Tough it's not in the will and neither of you were getting it. It's no good until it's written down. Written and signed by you and it's witnessed by some independent witnesses. Now these are very important. They must be independent, not mention in the will you can't have a beneficiary who's a witness, you can't have a husband or wife of a beneficiary as a witness either because not I'm told very first clause there aren't, to get a duplicate made bungalow or something like that he might be missing out on the bungalow and the was The course leader at the time told me the story that saw him and he wouldn't tell me who it was I want my ten percent commission. put it down to just a useful. Erm so witnesses er can't be beneficiaries and they must be there at the same time. They've got to see you sign the will or at least acknowledge it and in practice see you sign they don't need to know what's in the will they just want to see you sign but they've got to be there it's no good up the road as one witness did for not for me to her husband who was working in his shop witnessed the signature afterwards. I only found that one out by mistake because there were two dates on the will check it out when it was done. And they just happily told me that Oh I just took it up the road for my husband to witness the signature and that totally invalidated the whole will. will and that didn't please some people I can assure you. Er wills are revoked. Marriage revokes a will, divorce doesn't revoke a will, but divorce does have consequences. Divorce has unfortunate consequences because of the way they worded the act. the parliamentarians can't get a straight piece of legislation through. It says in the act something like Divorce any gift to a spouse, quote is of no effect, unquote. But there are big problems that arise there because of this practice of having leave it to my spouse if she survives twenty eight days. That's a conditional gift divorce makes it that that gift is revoked but she may still survive therefore the condition would apply and therefore the subsequent er provisions that you've made in a will don't apply because they can only apply if the wife survives twenty eight days but that's ignored! And that's that's that's an effect of of statute so if you are getting your divorce, make a new will. It's the easy way round that one. But marriage revokes it entirely and the law is straight forward on that. new marriage, new spouse intestacy rules, spouse is the nearest and gets the first lot so it presumes that having got married you want that spouse to have what you've got. of course it may not be the case cos spouse may be well off, but you need to make a new will. more or less with what's a good will and who you have to have in mind and disposing of the estate and being tax effective so that that . Er if you get it wrong erm there's the inheritance provision for family and dependence act nineteen eighty five, which is the statutory provision allowing you spouse who left nothing to all those children who left nothing to make applications to the court. They've got six months from the grant to do that. Executors we've dealt with and expenses, alterations I've just dealt with er Oh if you want to change you mind, and remember a will is only a piece of paper until you die, you can change your mind as often as you like I have made a will in the past Four wills in one year for one of my clients, his right he's perfectly entitled to do that er and it's better that you alter it frequently if your circumstances change than that you don't be aware of how things go in the way that you don't want them do. But what you can't do is cross things out or add things one, they won't be effective. Any alterations to will a will have to be executed in the same way as the will itself. So you've got to witness it sorry you've got to sign it you've got to have your signature witnessed. It's therefore nearly always better to make a new will. If you're crossing somebody out even if you er alter it and initial it, someone will know they've been crossed out. If you make a codicil leaving somebody out, they'll still see the original will somebody will know that you've changed your mind. It's better to make a new will then they don't know what you had in before and nobody's there to argue or question it. If for any reason you need to revoke your will urgently, and there are occasions when it comes about, you need to destroy it. Burn it tear it up or both. Don't just put a line through it saying revoked, that's not good enough. Er and rush off and make a new will as soon as you can as well as. What about ? Sorry? What about the ? A copy is not of itself a will and therefore even if the copy is kicking around er that won't effect the matter. The only problem will arise if somebody thinks you've simply lost a will, which does occasionally happen, and then they turn to the copy to try and prove it. So if you've a copy you ought to destroy that, if it's with the solicitor you should notify them. but again if you make a new will you've got new dates on that problem is less likely to come about. Now time is nearly on us but I'm just going to rapidly refer you to procedures on death. Actually I see another little bit that I haven't covered for us who's going to make a will but I think I've dealt with that. Do see a solicitor, cost is likely to be thirty pounds, upwards. Upwards depends on how complicated you want it to be. Husband and wife together sixty pounds, upwards. Thirty five for an ordinary one you know everything to my spouse or most of it to the spouse with bits to the children er well r we usually run to about thirty five pounds. not a lot of cost, compared to what it will cost if you don't make a will and there are complications or if you make a home-made will and there are complications. Putting it right will cost always a lot more than making your will. Making a will with a solicitor also has the advantage of that you'll have a copy, he's likely to look after it for you if you want him to. Your copy will say where it is, less likely to get lost, people will know because he'll have a copy and can tell your beneficiaries to go an see a solicitor. All that for a very modest price. Erm probates Or rather procedure on death because probate is proving a will, in the Latin if there's no will it's letters of administration which is a similar procedure, except that the will speaks from death and therefore your appointment of the executors is effective from death and therefore your appointment of executors is effective from death, they can do certain things even before they've proven the will Which administrators can't do cos they don't have the power until they've proved that they're the people entitled. Check that the will is valid of course. Find out all the details of the assets. Assets are frozen, you can't get your hands on them on the whole until you've got your grant of probate or you've made declarations if it's a small will. Apply for your grant, I've dealt with that. Inland Revenue accounts. Er swearing the papers basically saying who you are that this is the will er that er the person's died of course er a and that you're the person entitled to be a . Having got that grant it goes round everybody, banks building societies insurance companies and so on, and they'll send declaration forms or withdrawal forms to the assets,the assets and pay the liabilities It's your job to that. It's your job to deal with tax. Inheritance tax, income tax as well is often a return that you needs making. More often than not you get a refund cos of course you have personal allowances for a whole year but you've not er not er lived a whole year as often as not and therefore there usually spaced over the twelve months and you've paid a bit too much tax if you've died in the course of the twelve months. Pay the debts. That's an executor's responsibility. So you need to make sure you know about all the debts which is why if you ever read the papers some Never understand why people read the public notices columns but they are read and you see notice about so and so who's died. That's so that a e anybody who's owed money by that deceased person they can put in a claim. Cos if it's been advertised and they haven't put in a claim the executors are safe to distribute the estate. Legal costs come out of the estate they're not an executor's personal responsibility, but on the other hand an executor is not entitled to charge for the work that he does. Or she. Er reimbursement for expenses so petrol, postages that sort of thing, but the time of running around you can't get back, which is one of the factors that back to the old Which magazine they never deal with this say yes you can deal with it and I read some person that says it only took me forty hours,yes forty hours at legal rates, well that would be a big bill. If a solicitor took as long as forty hours over it. So executors can't get their own er time paid for. And that really I think is about it unless there are Interpretation of As much as I'm going to. Unless there are any other questions that I've not dealt with yet. Who's liabl Sorry. Who's liable to pay the funeral expenses? The funeral expenses are not enough money to If there's not enough money Social Services. You connect them and they have arrangement with funeral directors to get them on the cheap. Er they're still proper funerals but they basically bulk buying so the cost will be Typically about No no I've been on one and they do do it properly. Erm private arrangements But it is a first charge on the estate. Er and it's one of the things that people still worry about . Could I just come in there and I do know an undertaker and this subject did come up in conversation . Yeah. And he said Oh he says Never worry about that He said nobody in my . . of course. Now they they they don't like bodies lying around unattended so the incinerators are always open for that. Yeah I There's been some correspondence in the financial papers about the family trusts er and particularly with regard to inheritance tax and so . Yeah. Are they worth while for relatively small sums you know you talked about ten thousand over the hundred and fifty . No no. Family trusts are the latest moves by er financial advisors and insurance people to sell you policies. Essentially you pay for f funds into a a trust and create a family trust whereby you or your spouse can be beneficiary and so can children. It's so written so that it's discretionary, it doesn't form part of your estate and therefore it avoids inheritance tax that way. Erm but of course if you die within seven years it could indeed be added back into your estate so I think that they also build a certain amount of life insurance against that and essentially what you do is you you One of the schemes is you pay insurance against the amount of the tax bill seven years. Er if you have a lot of money they can be a good idea er in that it takes capital out of your estate to provide income say children or spouse. But if you haven't got that amount of capital it takes capital out of your hands and you can't spend it in five years time if you need it because you've given it away effectively forever. I mean you can't claw the money the back if you get a bit short in five or ten years time. I've heard some solicitor say He's a great believer in your looking after yourself the kids will understand. I put it stronger than that sometimes I say You know why worry about them? Erm you've given them a good start in life, it's your money, enjoy yourselves with it. That's what you worked all your for you've not worked to pass on that amount to your kids. You know if you die and you've from the bank says you'll get buried anyway. Spend it on yourselves. Your will is only for those which you can't get rid of because you can't get rid of everything. Er but yes people worry about leaving it to their children, don't bother. You know they're either set up now you've given them an education and thrown them on the world squandering it now they'll only squander it when they get their hands on it you might as well squander it on yourselves, let the kids squander it for you. If you do have any other questions I'm stopping for a cup of tea so do please approach me quietly if you need some on that rather delicate level. . So, if we could come up. I'll sit at the back probably, in the back corner there. Basically if you could come up er, one group at a time explain er the of your programme and the reasons behind your programme, the assumptions that you've made. Even the difficulties you've had if you want to go about it, where the central problems are if you think there are any particular ones. Er, if people have any questions on individual presentations then I think we ought to take those questions while the group is up here. So, if you could er, however you present it, just wait behind in case there are any questions where people need clarification. And when we've finished er I'll come and hopefully pull everything together and take this onto the next stage which is the evaluation of the plan. You've got as long as it, it takes but it won't take, I should think, more than a few minutes for each group er to do their presentation. So, Group One, if I could ask you to come to your Do you want us to go through, everybody knows about Well I don't think they do because we've got here some people who have done the er some people have done an hotel and I think it would be best to explain the whole thing to them We haven't got an Oh they've all got But we have got Okay then, erm six tanks erm reinforced concrete er two metres square by about two metres high with er on the top. Er basically we call this area and the area here we've got er and for the actual set up. Er the problem with the job is it's very tight inside there so we've had to use cranes and basically poured concrete er ours is being done by a separate sub-contractor. Er few problems with the job before we started or during the job er,come back to us for a six so far so we have to What we will do is drop them down and Er another problem with the job is we're about three week's behind er arranged for them to come in on Monday. we had to pull forward it's not due so we've got er so we've given them three days to You see when we worked out the numbers for the we were given all the, the allowances, the rates et cetera, et cetera , we worked the forecast through and seen huge amounts of time given for which the assumption is that it's all done by hand, the job these cranes so the resources how much money had been spent. Here, the concrete Yeah that but we haven't got the resources to do it yet We've just got a couple of assumptions At, together at the beginning The tractor and trailer is generally helping moving between cranes loading back and forth, so many areas So,unless you want us to go through this literally point by point, it's question time. Anybody got any questions? One problem very small area that's why working at the same time. Er another problem we had as well is we had all going at the same time in a very close area as well. Er, when it comes to the wall shutters seven metres high er top and bottom That's right. That's right. erm do you identify Erm,basically what's in the programme but Erm, in your plan you, you seem to have like two objectives One was Yeah. and the other was, which I don't think you said Did you find that a particular problem? Yes we had to get them all into the tanks otherwise Okay. Right, thanks very much indeed Sir, when I do present to each training do you think that's I, I think it would give erm I, what you would probably do would be to put those three things Yeah. Oh, but that's all right with you here's your work, get on with it but I, I do understand what has happened here. Okay, thank you very much, I, I like that. Two, please? Erm, good morning ladies and gentlemen. My name is Alan and this is Terry and we're Group Two. We're going to talk to you about er Farm project and its basic problems which we had to put a programme together and er make the job Erm you've seen this before so our construction but the only to get there we had to squeeze through a gap this way and come round Now we just have a couple of minor problems to start with. Here we go and that is that, up to now, erm we've only made six beams, we've got to reach, for these tanks, we want to make sixty and the problem is we're on stop now redesign the whole thing and going on the present rate of production we're going to go up to about week twenty-eight. Twelve weeks over the time that is allotted in the programme and to do that we're gonna have to produce the twice the rate that we're doing now. So, that's just a little summary and Terry will fill you in more. Er, what we can do If the figures are worth eleven and a half days erm seventeen, seventeen days. That's for the We actually calculated them by using the unit quantity Now, ow! We decided one of our first things we had to do was decide on a sequence of construction for these tanks. We tried to keep it as logical as possible and er, there you have it. unless you have a base to work off of started to do, once we started doing the er, the walls take the scaffold down out of the way and to release some area off our stock pile we decided to back build so that by the time that we'd done six tanks we'd got half our area taken up by all that material excavated and just flip back to the drawing here what's going to happen is that stockpile here. While we're down this area and we've got the cranes sited in here to do these tanks this way and the pipes coming in this way and the tanks construction going on, we need to release this sort of area to be able to get everything so there's more work to do. Now, what we've decided to do on the formwork for the tanks is to construct er a square frame into formwork er into one hold everything in place while we pour the concrete Onto the programme oh there it is. Erm just er presentation of the programme of the way and the, the way we tried to get into everything. You know at the beginning of er week six? I mean, sorry, week er thirteen that er base six had been poured and therefore so the first thing we did was to get base six as soon as possible. Erm we also know that base five formwork is up so we started on base five as soon as we can, put as many resources into it as we can we mentioned earlier that er having five hundred people in there made life quite congested but we decided the more people that helped in there the better and er our objective was to get the er wall steelwork up. It was gonna take quite a while so erm we got the base five as quickly as possible so that we had as many hands on the job at once and er we had some formwork getting spare so we decided to make them useful and it's a case of we'd got six tanks to do and if we had a breakage we can't afford to stop the programme so as a er, a standby, just in case, we may never use these we might three or four uses out of but if we do have a breakage we want to be able to replace that straight away so have a spare set and you've got nothing more to do and er get the walls, get the er, the back build operation right at the very end, ongoing, till you've got the waterproofers in er get the waterproofing up to the five meter level and er get the back build in as quickly as possible. We tried to keep the scaffolders er occupied, doing their scaffolding bit accurate but safe everybody's gonna be climbing down on that. We've allowed a day for safety checks somewhat excessive but er there's always something that you find on scaffolding that's not quite right. You're not allowed to work on it and er that's about it really, our programme, we've decided to er start the pipe at the first position away from the tank construction and we've, we've set out, we employed a concrete layer and to lay out the pipes while we're doing nothing and continue on with the so that while this gang is actually laying there's only er six people in total. Two actually doing the pipe-laying, quite heavy pipes er that's it really. Thank you very much indeed. Any questions from anybody? Well, what we've decided to do is er know what to do and er this, this is the gang this is maybe exaggerated if you don't have three people on the bottom if you get Any thing else? Erm the, the frame that we've, that we will have on site You'll have one frame? We'll have, have one frame on site to start with, with the er steel er around about What we've er planned to do is site the crane and then we can do all the formwork and shut the in these a bit nearer. Erm delivery for the steel will come in and we need a crane to offload and a crane when we're offloading onto the tractor trailer Erm, well it is a mobile crane so er One crane will be pretty much fully employed and er if it's busy down here we can always bring the, the mobile crane Still mobile though Yes. Yes, yes it'll probably take quite a while actually. Erm here we go. It takes er one and a half days to do the base and er eight, eight days and eight Mondays to er to do the walls but two hundred and four, four days in total can't stop the concrete. Very good. Thank you very much. Yes, okay. Don't cheer at once. Do you want the main programme? Chris, do you want the main Yes I do. programme? That one? Yeah. Okay. Do you want anything else for that er Just a layout that's all. A layout. This one? Yeah. Okay. They've gone off! Right, morning everyone. We're Group five. We're, working on an hotel project I think and we're up to week thirteen on the programme and I think you might be able to see on week thirteen and given the information we've got at the moment as well, it means we're gonna be working on three floors at once so it was the first thing to identify. Working on three floors at once we decided to we needed to continue work on the seventh floor before moving up to the eighth and so on to the ninth by the information given us in the er we calculated that the men that were to get onto the programme by the end of the week calculated the production rate for various gangs to see how fast so that's how it was looking. Starting work on the seventh floor and allocating gangs accordingly. But you can see, you can see already that the production rate is no where near good enough to meet the programme and if it's only on the first part of the seventh floor, bearing in mind we've got to be working on three floors at the same time, we're only on the first part of the seventh floor and already we've got overlaps on day Granted, it's a major problem. If you carry on I'll show you the situation worsens as we've attempted Carrying on on the seventh floor, all the, all the other gangs are still employed working in the previous area. We haven't got enough Nice to get some work started on the eighth floor because of the different activities But then again with the activities that are carrying on on the seventh floor we can't By the time we get round to the ninth pretty desperate. We've only really got work for the the labourers in the form, even labourers aren't employed up to the ninth floor cos that work's already been completed. meant to be moving onto the tenth and eleventh floor it only takes them a short time to save time on that or, or cut down on your labour as usual. There's no need for them to be but there again it's a desperate situation That's it. Okay. Thanks very much. Yeah. What sort of gap? Yeah we put the got it tiled got these, sorry? Have you got it all tiled up there? Wall tiles there now. Is it? How do we know whether you We've assumed, we haven't got any information given to us to tell us where so I've made an assumption we've made an assumption that and we're, and then, and then I'll start in, in room one on the seventh floor. Where are they going? Where are they going after that? Yeah. Are they just So, on the seventh floor the floor tiles are next and the next job they're doing is on the eighth which is more floor tiling. What they're doing before or what they're doing afterwards? Both. Wouldn't be able to read it. The wouldn't be able to read it. Well I'm not going to. I'm not going to. But I can show you, I can show you the eighth floor and show you where the gang where is the eighth floor? three, four, seven, Yeah. and go on to four, eight, three. Yeah. Yeah. Ah, but they can't start, we can't start But we don't know, we haven't that information. We've got to make, we've got make some assumption. Yeah we don't know which numbers. Yeah. I, I don't know No it's erm, on, on Monday , on Monday morning they could've been working Another room? Yes. Yep. But it couldn't be working in the room if we had control of the numbers though. Couldn't be working in the room if we had control of the numbers. It would've been best with a bigger piece, bigger programme because then we could've it was easy to see where we were slipping If we had started on week one, where if we'd had complete programme information up to week thirteen when, that'd be more complete wouldn't it? Well that's it, yeah. Yeah. No, they're, they are complete up to programme by Wednesday dinner time. They don't do anything more than the, than necessitation to, to Well they can do. They can do if they want or they can progress onto other rooms to get time back that way, but anyway, can't you?we have er a target to meet on the programme of X percentage time and they will meet that far Wednesday afternoon so we haven't continued and shown I take your point. In reality they would be, they'd be moving onto another area. But then we don't know which other areas are ready, do we? Right. I like, I like that Any other questions? No? Thank you very much indeed. Good. Group four next? This was Ian by the way. Yeah, morning, everyone. We're Group four looking at the er, the hotel complex which has been explained before hand. Erm we approached the first project we were looking at the information we had available er, looking at the strength of the work a lot of information As you can see the er and, and looking at the er a definite lack of comments? Yeah, sure. No, we've had the main update they should know what Fine. Fine, okay laid anybody else off? No, we've managed to keep everybody else in er, in work. Yeah, yeah. My eyesight is not what it used to be. Er where do they go? They go up to floor eight Why can't they Good. Any, anything else? Everything else Yeah we got, we got all four hours a night. Sorry? Where did you get from? Er, from the information we was given. Erm the It depends how narrowed it down a bit So you just Yeah Yeah from other jobs we've done. Yep, that's good. Pardon? thank you very much indeed. Group Three Hello, Everybody Well, what we did was we what we did was we erm found the alarm system to try and calculate some reasonable output rates erm but what we found was the output rates seemed incredibly low using based on the completion that they have got So what we was we erm took the nine week's work that they'd done and erm plus they'd obviously based our output rates on that erm just for a little example, using the allowances we haven't got whereas actually we'd been calculating it on what they hadn't worked so, that was basically what we So moving on to the actual short-term programme Okay. Rather than looking at the proposal we decided that it was so that's what we did really and that's why, if you have a look down there right, so all we're doing then we're working through the resources and allocating them room numbers erm and then when that's done so that's what we did for each of the little rooms. Yeah, but basically from, from that programme all, all the er, you can see all the resources were really being used all week and, but I had a problem when we came to do the bedrooms that er, you can there, we ran out of work for the decorators to do er removing this thing, once you've removed and then I managed to squeeze in, but where the second decorator's erm up to room twenty-three but rather than erm have just one gang than, and not, not using as many as the resources as we possibly could I let them gave the second gang a few rooms that they could actually squeeze in without interrupting I've let them do up to room twenty-three and then and then basically the carpenting and they have to come in after everybody else has done what they Monday morning basically we just decided that we really needed more resources the earlier sequence of events to, to get so we were getting to so whether we've been given I did the erm it's a bit tricky to describe where with the active areas because you haven't got room decorators. Yeah, we hadn't got time And we didn't do this Too tricky! Is that it? Yeah. Thanks very much. I thought about that On the basis of our calculation Erm, could I, could I on, on the er diagram concerned Well, you can have a look. Right, we've got erm Wednesdays Sorry, Tuesday afternoon. from three to er twenty-eight. Have you got your purse? Well the erm, oh. Saved by the bell! I think, I think in fact you're, you're not having the problems that we're having where it's very difficult so you've got er a really nice representation but haven't quite gone far enough. Cos we did actually, we went to before we went, putting the things together making sure that we weren't starting the next activity until the, the rooms would be finished. However, when we decided this morning to change the whole way of presentation, yeah, I was just getting along to that. Erm, is it probably that the numbers All right, I, I accept that, but basically Yeah, well if we had, if we had of had more time we could've, like, written each individual room but really I just put the numbers down quickly just to, to demonstrate There was one Is it the same sort of thing? I wanted to Okay The resources were broken down also into groups er, a gang per room. Whereas really, then if you have bathroom, they might as well be working in that same bedroom at the same time, whereas we had two separate gangs. Where do you think I mean bearing in mind that all the resources were broken down presumably the were separate gangs we couldn't really make Erm. They were definitely coming, weren't they, for the electricals? Electricals Yeah. Good. Thank you very much indeed. Thank, thank you everybody, very well done. Erm, do you want to get a coffee before we start again? Yes. We've switched the recorder on so we're gonna start. Thank you for those presentations, I thought they were very good. I thought that the thought of, er, the thoughts gone into your erm plans and your presentation was much greater than we've had on previous courses. I think you've been a lot more conscientious and got a lot er, potentially a lot more out of it. I'd like to spend a few minutes now trying to pull that together and then go onto how we evaluate these plans, because you've all produced these and wouldn't you like to know how good they are and how bad they are? Can you tell how good they are and how bad they are? Er, quite often on real projects people produce these plans and they get out and work to that and never had to pause to think, this is a good one, this is a bad one. Can we improve it? Does it need improving? Electronics was never my strong point. They hadn't invented electronics when I was Still had one? Wireless. Wireless? Yeah, still had wireless. Could I take er, a minute and, and just try and look at the steps that you've gone through and I, I tried to write down as you were doing it, giving your presentation, the steps which I think everybody eventually went through either formally or informally and I think if we look at these steps you'll agree yes, I needed that and I did that or, we didn't do it formally. Er, step one, I think, is assess the current state. Where were we? And some of you had difficulty doing this erm, I think one of the hotel er groups said to me, I didn't know which rooms had been done. Well, we needed to know which rooms had been done. Another group just said, they were rooms one through ten, and er one of the tank farm group said, we didn't know exactly where we were but this was I think the assumptions that Group two told me were er, were about that. Is that right? I can't remember. So we have to assess the current state and if we didn't know then in our particular example, cos if we hadn't made the room numbers had been done. Er and thi this lead us to a list of things to do. Is that right? No, you may have said, ah, I've got room this to do, I've got this base to do, this base formwork base, erm,thi this wall er reinforcement to do. So in, in both projects I think we had to do that first step. Er, we had to get the number of resources. If only I could spell resources, number of resources. Now, everybody had to do that. Er, there you said I'd got three formwork gangs or four formwork gangs six a gang er and here you said I'd got so many so we had to do that. They weren't any good by themselves er, these things because I the other thing which you had to get from somewhere was output rates. How good were people at erecting er wall formwork or fixing base steel? How long did it take er, a plumbing gang to do first-fix plumbing? The questions are identical I think. They were just slightly different types of work which were being done. In, in this one it might've been slightly easier because everything was spelled out you had to do you had to do carpenting, you had to do electrical. In this one it wasn't quite so er, straightforward in that we, we hadn't given you the actual activities to do. We'd given you the activities to do there so you could find the output of them. In this one we hadn't told you that you had to strip formwork, that you had to er, make the formwork, that you had to fix the steel, you had to know this from your own knowledge. Yeah? So you had to know that in order to, to pour concrete you had to have something to pour it into and you had to put the erm you had to have er reinforcements as well. Bu but basically the output rates were, you had to do. You had to think of a method and the method was particularly difficult, I think, on the tank farm one where this is the sort of method that I am thinking here of how, how on earth am I going to build it on, on the hotel? It wa wa was very prescribed. You didn't have much choice in, in what you did. Yeah? You had a, you had a choice in sequence of doing things but you didn't have a choice in method, whereas in the tank farm I think you had a choice of method. You, you could say, I'm going to do all four walls together or I'm going to do one wall at a time. Yeah? Erm and it, it was quite interesting but I, I think that the two groups that presented actually did, had chosen different methods. Is that correct? Yeah? So you had to choose that er, you have to do that and the fifth thing that I wrote down here which I had to do, a sequence er, of work. Now there are two sequences here I, I think erm in, in all these things. You have to do the detail sequence er so for the tank farm this is, here I've got to do the formwork before the reinforcement before the concrete or the other way round, I've got to the reinforcement before the formwork before the concrete. And that's an on-going thing wherever you do it this is the detail sequence. On the hotel the sequence was I've got to do the first-fix plumbing before I do the second-fix plumbing. I've gotta do it in this order. Yeah? And so for each one of them you might've started by, having got all this, what you could do then is write for each individual element, a tank base, a tank wall a bedroom or a bathroom, you can produce, I would suggest, a little bar chart which might look like that, for one unit. And this is a chart where this was activity down here and time along there. So this would be a little bar chart for one bedroom, one bathroom, base, wall, whatever it is. And that brings together all of these things here. The number of resources, output rates, the method, the sequence. Okay? So that, we've got, there you've got to do lots of different concrete and excavation, slightly different thing, here you've got to do lots and lots of these. You've gotta do thirty-six on one floor, thirty-six on another floor, and the next thing that you got is all the information together where all you've got to do is put that, lots of those together and it's er, it's er a shuffling around procedure, isn't it? Yeah? And you know they can't go, this one can't go earlier than that one because we've got the sequence and so if we got through these steps, I think that those steps are the same steps that we go through on any project. And indeed when Bill, yesterday, asked you what do you need to do short-term planning? If you go back and look at your list I wouldn't mind betting that your list includes, we need to know the sequence, we need to know the number of resources, we need to know the output rates, we need to know the method. Yeah? I wouldn't mind betting that Bill's lists that you gave him actually contained all these things and only then can we actually put them down in order. It's a great shame that when we are presented with er a problem, when we're out on site, we actually forget all these things and, and I think that probably it took you an hour or so yesterday to actually recognise, oh yes, I need this and I need this and I need this. Once you've got them yeah? The problem actually becomes much more manageable. Would, would you agree? Yeah? And I certainly think the results that you've produced show that the, the problem is quite manageable because I think in the end you've actually produced a very good programme for work. All of them! Because you've had to make different assumptions and you've er decided different ways are different. But I think your, your thinking has gone along these lines which is fundamental to any planning programme. Now when you're out on site some of these things you have to do each week. Some of them you don't have to do each week because they're there from previous work on, on the site. So you would know the output rate, or you think you'd know the output rates but you only know those output rates if somebody bothered to collect them! Somebody might not have collected them, so you might have to And as work changes it would er, then the method. We would hope that that has been defined er by somebody of the hierarchy but, if we're moving onto new work areas, it might not The sequence maybe self-evident but it may not be and it would be nice to have it written down. I think especially in the, in the hotel project it's useful to have a little bar chart saying this is what goes on in a bathroom. Yeah? Even even, okay, even if we the the reason that we need the output rate was to find the length of this bar. Yeah? If you wish that to send things out to subbies first of all you've got to have it reasonable, but you still need the length of that bar. That's what I'm saying And so you're assuming the output rate in order to get the length of that bar. Erm you, you might do, Chris. I, I'm not arguing with you. I think that it is sensible, even when you send stuff out to subbies, to make sure that you've got a reasonable plan, especially when you send out to subbies, because they're very hard to control anyway and you've got to make sure that you've not sent unrealistic targets, either too high or too low. And I think there's a lot of goes on here. Er, in, in, in the real world where people say, you do it, it's yours. Whereas in reality I think people have got to take responsibility and say, this is a reasonable time for you to do it in and we will control that reasonable time. Yeah? But I do take your point, of course. Ah, right, right. We've got to get the things to do but quite often if you are, we've got to have those things to do you've got finish by a particular time. If I told you now that we needed another five gangs of floor tilers or whatever it was which you hadn't got enough of, it won't be floor tilers something you haven't got enough of, everything, could you get them by Monday? As short-term you can't, at medium- and long-term you can and that's where we've got to recognise in order to muster the resources onto site. But really at short-term I still believe that we are doing this and this is what we're, we're, we're aiming at this. Use the available resources but maybe the wrong ones because somebody in the position of authority hasn't recognised or he hasn't got enough to finish the project by the client required date. Yes, to attempt to achieve it. using available resources to attempt to achieve it But you see, what we've got is a set of fairly standard steps here which you got through no matter what the project and I hope that er, you've all had a bit of practice at that. What I'd like to do now is reach for another er set of notes and er, talk about, change, change direction a bit and talk about checking erm short-term programmes. sorry If we get one of the main problems that I find is that, I've already said, is that people produce short-term programmes and they get issued. Nobody actually knows whether they're right, whether they're wrong or if there are any problems with them. I think that whenever there's a programme it ought to be agreed above and below er a hierarchy. So, what do you think of this? Is that alright? Is there a problem with that? Is it doing what we want? What sort of things do you think should be checked in a, in a programme? Feasibility. Feasibility? By that you mean the order of things we ought to think about so Well I mean, I'm really saying can you actually Oh, we've got lots of things to do. Er can I, can I take a few of those er an and try and separate them. Yeah. you've gotta break it down. I, I want to break it down, yes. I really want to break it down. Erm one thing that you said there having all these people in there, in, in, in the room. What, what, erm what do we call that? I think, I think there're, there're a few things erm, I think you asked the question er, Peter, about having eighteen people on one base all got to work together. I thought, the not that I made there was safety. Yeah. Yeah? And er this clash might be, give rise to a safety aspect. It may not be the first thing at the top of our minds when we're, when we're checking the thing but I think it ought to be checked for that. Erm okay, then I, I think that er what we'd got er, what you were talking about there was clashes. Yeah? Erm and if I may er use that geographic clashes, you know, we've got all the people in one room or we've all the people in one base. It may not be of safety but it maybe er not the sort of thing that we want. Erm so, geographic. What other things are we going to check? Sequence. Yeah, we, we really ought to check the sequence. Have we, what do you mean? Er, have we really drawn our programme, we've got a very complex programme for the, the, tank farm which we did, have we shown ourselves putting the reinforcements in after we've poured the concrete? Because in fact It certainly should be. Yeah? It Somebody some I'm, where are you handing it over to? Well I, I thi well if, if your boss checks it, what should he be checking for? Aveline, I'm not even checking for figures there I'm just looking through, just scanning through, erm I'm I'm, I haven't said how we're gonna check these. Yeah? I think that it ought to be self-evident, erm if we've done our programme in a way which er, is clear or if we've presented it in a clear fashion, then I think sequence and clashes er and safety, to a large extent, become self-evident. As they indeed they did from, I think it was your er programme Group er two, where you'd actually drawn out quite boldly bearing tank five, tank five, tank five or whatever tank it was. Yeah? There was, you know, your judgment was, this was okay. But somebody else's judgment might have been that this was a geographic clash. Yeah? Er and they may have thought it was not acceptable from that point of view but you felt that it was okay. Er the sequence, I think, has also got to be done. I think that the sort of sequence that erm I can't remember which group it was You need a sequence indeed, yeah, erm, just a minute, I, I've made a not somewhere. Erm on, on yours in fact I couldn't check sequence erm on the programme that you'd given me because I didn't, I, I had know way of telling whether we did get a clash. I think we discussed room twenty-eight or something, didn't we? So I, I couldn't actually check that but somebody's got to check it. It's got be feasible! Now you said that you'd actually presented it in another way and were just, and, and had just changed it. Yeah? Yes, yeah, yeah, well indeed you yeah, yeah. which Indeed, you had, you had thought about it and so it would just have been a case of saying, yes, this is obvious. Yeah? And so that's all, all that's necessary. But I think it is necessary. Yeah? What other, what other ones? Go on, tell me some other ones. Continuity? Yeah. Once again that's another one which is just a glance at the, at the programme if it's presented one way and very difficult if it's presented another way. Yeah? As, as, as somebody pointed out, I mean that the floor by floor was great for one, from one point of view, wasn't it? In that you could see what was happening on the floor but it didn't show continuity of work which easily I'm not, I not arguing with it, yeah. I'm not arguing with it. Yeah? I'm, I'm just saying that one way we can see things easily and another way we can't, and we do want to check it, we do want to be sure that there is continuity. It might be it might be, it, it might be. We, we have some interesting pictures of what's on site and er, so yes, I agree it might be. I'm not saying it is. Yes. Because there are, I don't know how many sites Tarmac run, but there must be at least the number of sites that they've ever run divided by two standard ways of planning, Tarmac. That's a hell, a hell of a lot of standard ways of planning. Okay, what else? Yeah, like that! Erm shall I put finance? Now that's, that's a bit more difficult to check from these, from these diagrams, but I think it's very important, don't you? You know you want to know and I would've thought that the higher the management the more they want to know the implications, the financial of it of any plan which you're going into. Yeah? So I look at the short-term programme and er see, yeah. No, we couldn't because what happened was the But we do know that some people have done within Tarmac. Sorry? Well I don't know where. We'll have to look in John's thing, yeah? There isn't, you know, there isn't one thing is that we need to, with the short-term programmes we didn't do it work out the financial we need to go one stage further identify where the labour is I'm gonna look a financial implication because it's something which, I reckon, having had practice of this, you can do in if we, we'll give you an example. We'll let you do it on your example. You could, you've gotta talk, exactly, it will ta It's one it's very, very simple and you can and usually It's usually, it is it isn't there but it's terribly important so we're gonna have a look a that. Okay. But before we go to that Check resources Check, in what, in what way, Tom? Somebody's got, somebody's gotta make sure that they're there next time, yeah. So, yeah, resource considerations. I, I, I think so. Now it may well be that that is actually looking into a slightly longer term. You're now beginning to use the short- term plan to muster resources and that's very dangerous because er, you've only got a very small snapshot of what's going on. Er, but it can certainly indicate that er, more things are required. Yeah? Yeah. Yes, indeed. Yeah yeah. So, so, could I er, the sort of realism of the outputs yeah? Is a, is a, a thing which you're commenting on as well. Yeah, yeah. I, I think realism of the outputs I, I think what you're saying is, look, these might be okay but this one isn't. Yeah? The others you might not have argued but, you know, you might say my experience is that it, I could do it in eighty percent of that time. But your experience on, on one thing, I think, was, I can do it five times better than that. Yeah? Okay. Yeah. The only thing you could do to this programme is Okay. Yeah. Well we've got the resource. I, I've put, I've put both. I, I agree. Yeah? Er, what else? We need to check for the Yeah. So we've got to check the objectives, haven't we? Yeah? Yeah. Er yeah, I, I think very much so. Yeah, very important. So somebody's got to say, is this you've got a problem. Yeah? Which he may not be able to do anything for that week but it will ring a bell loud and clear the following weeks. Yeah? Okay, I agree there and, and objectives, so we might say er, future work which might bring in the, your point er, Tom. That okay? I, I agree, yeah. All these things have gotta be checked. Anything else that's gotta be checked. Er, yes, I think we're looking at objectives there as, as, as being programme, yeah. In what way? Quality Quality? Ah, right. Now quality. Well indeed,qual quality, quality is a very different, I haven't written quality down. I, I think quality is a very difficult one. But you can guarantee if you're trying to force people to do things in er, unacceptable ma methods then you're gonna have a problem meeting quality. So the acceptability of the work pattern will affect the, the quality and so if you want a general thing there, I'd rather put down yeah, I'd rather put down for acceptability of work pattern. Yeah? But er, all these things should go towards that. Yeah? There, there's still something else I, I, I think that ought to be there. Perhaps two things. And I know that you've considered it er, in, in, drawing up some of your, your, programmes and Well, yeah, well try to expand a little more on that, Chris, when you, when you say coordination. Yes. Okay, now, now I think, I think you've said, getting all the materials down to one end er, so you've got two things there, I think. You've materials and you've got access. Yeah? Have we considered materials at all? Are the materials available? Are we gonna be able to get them into the right place? Are we gonna be able to get the people into the right place? Yeah? And, and those are really the two last things that I had on mine, on my list. Now these, these tend to go fairly well together. I think access was a particular problem on the hotel. Yeah? We had one lift to get everything up and down. Yeah. So so somehow they've got to move there, haven't they? They've got to be moved and I it's, it's, it's a tremendous time You only had lift three, yeah. Yeah. No. So you've a got a real problem and this, this will very much affect the work method. Now you had a very similar access problem, didn't you, which, was it Group two that referred to particularly? Did you, did you talk about it? Some of you, one of you Yeah. Once again, you know, you'd have thought in a green field construction site that you wouldn't get access problems and in er, a restricted area like a city centre building or er, a you would get access problems. But I actually think that you've got access problems in both of them and they have to be considered because the do really affect severely or they could severely affect er the success or failure of the programme, and it's these list of things which you think, now I've thought about that or I haven't thought about that. Quite often in, in reality they don't get thought about and it's quite often these sort of things which cause programmes not to work, because on site people work round them. Oh, I've gotta do that, I've gotta do that. You're continuously working round and taking people off doing what they ought to do simply to move things around and you, you've talked of that. There's a tremen oh yes, yeah, there is a limit, so maybe what you're doing is just assessing is this going to give er problems or have we got put a gang on specifically moving things around. Yeah? Right. Right. Yeah. But at the time Yeah. You've definitely got to think about it at er long-term er, very much so, Chris. But I do think you've got to realise that it's going to affect your production rates. Simply having er an access problem is quite severely going to affect your production rates, whether you like it or not! You know, if, if somebody's got to move a twenty-two R B even three hundred yards, they don't do that any more, do they, they move it metres. Yeah? It's gonna take quite a long time. Yeah? If you're in a restricted area and you want somebody to do something you can't get to cranes in there, you've actually got to say I'll do that one and then I'll do that one. So this thing of having the crane doing this and the crane doing that, I was actually a bit concerned about that. In the hotel, once again we've gotta get all these, we've gotta things into a room which is obvious, but you've gotta get things up through the lift and you've got this bottleneck. Yeah? Just like the crane, in fact you've gotta transport in a bottle, an access bottle. Erm, could I go on and look at er, the finance which I've starred here. Somebody, somebody said finances, I think it's very important and I'd like to look at financial implication and see if we can do something about it. And I've got er, I've got a printed overhead here which is nice so I'll use my printed overhead. Er, and I want to talk a little bit about er finance and I, I've got to recognise to start with that not all money is controllable at the site level. Sorry? You will get you will get some notes on this. Cos, cos, cos it's printed it's in my notes somewhere. It's, it's the things that I've written down quickly. Not all money is controllable at site level. Would you agree with that? At different sites different things are controllable. So, on some sites you might say, no, I, well I can control the labour costs and I can control the er, plant usage, but I don't buy the materials myself the only way I can affect them is by altering the wastage. Yeah? Er, but basically somebody else in head office somewhere orders these materials. On another site you say, no, I order all my own materials. It, it will vary very much from contract to contract but not all money is, is controllable and how much you all contribute to erm Brian B M W from your projects, I, I don't think you have any control over do you? Precious little over them. Precious little? Well somebody contributes it, don't they, cos he's got a B M W. And he hasn't bought me a Renault er, I, I think, I, I'd like to make the, the comment that in general the money which can be controlled at site level is that related to labour and plant. So if you might say, no, I can control materials erm but labour and plant, would you agree? Right, but er if, do you have er, er, a choice over what price is paid? Some, some sites do, yeah, some sites do, but some sites will, will use the central buyers. Yeah, that's right The, the central buyers will do it, yeah? And so, and so whatever, whatever the buyers have agreed they, you will pay that price! So you can't con you can control when it comes but you ain't gonna ch you're not gonna control how much you pay for, for, for almost anything, I'm afraid. Some sites do. Some sites can actually go and order everything. Some sites can go and order everything up to a thousand pounds. Some sites can go and order er things up to fifty pounds. Yeah, sometimes, it, it depends very much on You can do Well you can, but not everybody can. Yeah? Erm and it's different from site to site, but I can, the things that you can normally control are the labour and how they're used and the plant and how it's used. You may not be able to I, I, I haven't, I haven't put sub-contractors down there. Well they might be, they might be er labour-only sub contractors. They might be erm proper sub-contractor. They might be all sorts of sub-contractor. Yeah? I'm, I'm just saying there at the minute and, and if you'd like to argue no, we can control the sub-contractor sometimes, then fine. Yeah? And you can do sometimes because some of the sub-contractors you'll come on, they'll come on and they'll act more or less like your own labour on some sites. Yeah? Yeah, yeah yeah. So, I, I, I agree there but subbies really could come on I think you've got a very, very narrow view here, here. You've got a very narrow view of life. Yeah? An exceedingly narrow view of life. Yeah Yeah. Erm how about this one? The actual income and expenditure for the project will probably not be known by the person carrying out the short-term programming. Yeah? Because you've, absolutely, it's all under wraps. Really a pain, innit? Isn't it a pain. Yeah? All too late! Because it, as you say, you hit the nail on the head there you've spent too much, they're on your back for spending too much. Isn't this the best thing to do with a lock them in their office? Great! Let them do that. Let them do that. No, let them do that. Let them do that is what I'm saying. I, I, I don't give a hoot what do. Yeah? I couldn't, I, I would, if, if, if the company weren't so refined I would say other things about them but I don't give a hoot. Not on tape. Oh yes, I'd forgotten that! Erm I the actual income and expenditure of a project of the project will probably not be known by the person carrying out the short-term programme. What, what I would like to say, I don't care. In order to control things properly we don't need to know. What we do need is the equivalent of what we've got in the documents which I've given to you which is some sort of allowance for every bit of control of the thing. Now that allowance would be nice if it bore some relationship to what was allowed in the estimated er, figures. Yeah? But it's actually, surprisingly enough, isn't essential as long as we can agree on an allowance. Let's, let's say we're gonna be allowed so much and then let's measure off those against that allowance. Somebody else can measure that allowance against the actual price that we've been paid, but from our point of view let's accept an allowance. I'd like that allowance to be related very much to how much everybody thinks the work's going to be er, going to cost which is initially worked out by the estimator. And you've spent some time doing this, don't you, Adam? Yeah. Yeah? Yeah. You know, this is what, this is what your life's about. You, you actually, the estimators do think about these things, believe it or not. Yeah? Or they have a little book where they can look it up. Yeah. But you, but, but I do think er, right, what I er, what I think we've got is an allowance. So, if I pass my er printed overheads for this one an allowance er, is, and you were talking about it really, you were using this as though it were going to be er, your money that you'd got to spend for doing each one of those activities or each bit of work within the, the project. And, but what you were actually spending was the money on the resources. Whether you appreciated it or not, what you were actually doing when you were assigning resources and things was you were actually working out an expenditure er on resources. And these two should be comparable, shouldn't they? And that's the sort of thing that we want to compare. So, this one is sort of comparable to income, cos we're always comparing income and expenditure. Somebody said, did it mean we were making a big profit? Tom was it? Are we making a big profit? Well we, we don't whether we're making a profit because we don't know where, how our allowance related to the actual money which we were going to earn from doing the work. Because only the locked in their little room by Phil, Lucky you're on opposite sides of the room. But only the or the project manager would know what we were actually going to be made. Yeah? It might, it might've been, you, but you didn't care where it was from, did you? You just thought it was an allowance. There's nothing wrong with that. Now I assumed it was, it had come from somewhere else. So erm . where did I, I'm not sure whether I ought to be getting into this but I will. I, I, I think we've got a bill of quantities. Yeah? Which is actually broken down into several headings erm now people break these bills down into many different er forms er, for example, in major projects, I, I know that for any bill be able to tell me er how many were involved in pouring er, concrete er, on any base. Did you know this? How many er they, they know, they, they actually assign there's er, there's er a computer system which er allows you to build up the rates for doing work. Holiday stamp? Yeah we need some holiday, we'll have a bit of that in there. We'll have a bit of this type of We'll have, have a bit of that tying wire. So how much tying wire is involved in the base of the tank? No trouble. It's all there. Er, I don't know what do. I know major projects do, are able to do this. It's the estimating package. No, the estimating package, I don't know what it's called. Yeah? Yeah, it's, it's the standard one which er lot use. Chief Estimator for Estimator Director for major projects. Erm now, I'm not really into that sort of breakdown. I, I'm not really interested how many ounces of tying wire are used in the base of er, a thing, but I, they, they do have another one which groups some of these together and er will give me labour plant materials, and it's surprising how many contractors have this same breakdown er, from er, contractors might have materials and temporary materials er er, sub-contract erm what else are we likely to have? Overheads and profits. Yeah? And risk. Yeah? These sort of things five or six breakdowns. Now, and, and all these go together to provide a bill rate which is what we actually get paid, isn't it? Now, the relationship between how much labour there is, how much it's actually going to cost with labour and plant to do something, and what the bill rate is can be anything. People might've messed around with it by putting this overhead profit to risk, they might've put a negative er element in there, er they might've put a high-cost element in there, they might put nought in there, so it's very difficult to recognise that, that bill rates er from the labour, or the labour from the bill rate, there isn't a standard relationship, nowhere near. We don't what this. Yeah? It's irrelevant to us. This is how much we're paying towards Brian B M W. Sorry, Brian. Yeah? What, what we're interested in, sorry? If you've heard my comments about the knows who it is. Er, what we are interested in is what the estimators have thought we're going to do for labour and what the estimators thought we were going to, it was going to cost us for plant. So we're interested in two elements here of this multi-element We're not interest in the materials we're only interested in controllable money which I've decided that at the minute will be labour and plant. I take, I think it was your point, Alan, that we could something with sub- contractors as well. But let me just deal with labour and plant at the minute and we'll see, we can do a similar thing. So I'm only interested in that. If I can get these, that's great. If I can't, then I will have to make up my own in order to control the, the programme to work. But er those things are available on most, not all Tarmac contracts unfortunately, but most of them. Where am I going? What I'd like to do now is how do we compare the allowance and the expenditure. There's one thing we can do is take one from t'other. Yeah? Because we should be able to get our planned allowance and our do so many cubic metres of concrete this was the allowance for it. The figures that you were actually calculating, weren't you? Yeah? Some of you actually calculated those. We're doing so many er bathroom first-fix er plumbing, this was the allowance for it. A planned expenditure, I'm using these Yeah? Er, and these resources, I think, are going to cost me er, X pound for a day. So I ought to be able to work out the difference between them. Say look, I'm gonna make a profit or I'm gonna make a lost. This profit and lost is not real profit and lost it isn't real profit and lost. Well I, I, think they should be, yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It might well of been. Well, no I, well, I, I'm not sure whether we have. Let, let me just continue for a minute and then, then ask a question later. Yeah? What I, what I'd like to do is, we can say that we're we can make er a profit or a loss and we can give the figure, so this might have come out at seven thousand two hundred whatever. Let's call them pounds because we're working in England. Yeah? And er, my expenditure might've been erm oh I don't know, something that I can do the sums on, five thousand three hundred. Yeah? Er and so er, look I'm gonna make a profit of nineteen hundred. My allowance is higher than my expenses therefore that's jolly good, isn't it. Yeah? If the allowance had come from somebody who'd put in a lot of thought to this our estimator here. It's nice to have an estimator represented on the course because I think that you'll admit that people do put some thought into this and the, the rates that you use for labour and plant, you try to make realistic. Yeah. Cos you're actually trying to estimate the true cost of doing the work. Somebody else can fiddle around with the figures when they tender for it, but you're trying to get a true cost of doing the work. Yeah? You may not believe this and then so it's nice to have Adam here to say yes, that's right. Yeah? Yeah. And, and, and you deal very strongly with that, so if he's saying, having, given quite a lot of considered thought to this Well, a fair amount. Fair amount. Seven thousand two hundred, you'll come out saying five thousand three hundred. You're saying I can do it a lot better than that. Mm okay,because I'm doing it so much better am I sure that I've got this right? Yeah? Or am I being optimistic? Well, indeed, we might be saying, hang on a minute,is there something with the plan? Am I being too optimistic? So all of a sudden you're beginning to question it. This financial analysis has lead you to question whether your plan is optimistic or not. Yeah? Or whether it as you said, highly unlikely. Yeah? And you can do it by taking one from t'other but more useful er, I would suggest, is to work out a planned performance or what I've called a planned performance, er, this'll be in your, in your notes as well, er which equals planned expenditure over planned er, income or allowance. Yeah? And what should that be? We would expect it to head towards one, wouldn't we? Yeah? In this situation it isn't. In this situation it's below one. Yeah? But if, if we er so, so we could actually produ you know, plot this over time because we've, I hope we'd have more than one er weekly programme. So each week we can plot our, our value where this is one, somewhere down here is nought and we would hope to er, eventually get to a situation where our planned performance was somewhere near one so we would be pardon? Sorry? Well, I, I'm, I'm not sure, I'm not sure whether it is and it's certainly what we're, what we're targeting though, isn't it, because we believe that either we've, we've narrowed down our allowances er, nicely and we've got sensible allowances, or we've er, improved our planning. I actually would hope that we would keep our allowances standard, because it allows us to do other things. And so, just by analyzing this financially, and it's not true financing because this allowance er, is not related to the er, to how much the company gets paid. We should be able to see whether our plan is optimistic or pessimistic and it should then get us back to, it'll ring bells. And they'll say is it our, are our output rates sensible. We can other things however though, because we can do the same things for actual. After the week's gone, we can work out our actual allowance. So if we look at what work we've really done, say what we, what w what we allowed to do that. Yeah? And we can work out our actual expenditure that will, some of these resources won't turn up. Yeah? You know, they'll have had a night out on the tiles. I was not looking that way! but er, we would get er, an actual allowance and our actual expenditure and we'll be able to calculate an actual performance. Which is actual expenditure divided by actual allowance. Yeah? And so we'll say, well that's what we planned to achieve, this is what we actually achieved. I wonder how well we were doing against our own plan? And wouldn't you rather be judged against your own plan, which everybody's agreed, than against anything else? And so I think we can work out our, what I've called here, efficiency and er, my efficiency is actual performance over planned performance. So I'm going to use three things to, to see how I'm doing both in planning and actual. I'm gonna used a planned performance. Gonna use an actual performance. I'm going to use an efficiency. And these are all based on the allowances and it doesn't matter if those are allowances are correct as long as we use the same incorrect allowances all the way through. Yeah? So, if it's really going to cost me fifty pound the cubic metre to pour concrete and happen to have forty pound the cubic metre, then it'll show up in the plan that mm, I'm not doing to well here, because there wasn't a big enough allowance. But the same thing will be taken into account in the actual okay? So I might be showing myself doing worst than I should be but, look, my actual come out about the same and so when I compare my actual with my planned, I get er, an answer which should approach one. Yeah? So I should be getting one. No matter what, no matter how accurate my allowances were, this is why I said I don't really think it matters. Wasn't it somebody saying everything was locked away? I mean as long as we've got something which is in the of where we want to be, we can actually measure how well we're performing against our own plan, which I think is what you'd like to be able to do. Because if you measure how well you're doing against your own plan, you stand some chance of improving your planning. And if you said, well I can only I can only achieve seventy-five percent of what was in my plan one week, then you say well, what was I doing wrong? The people couldn't have been working well enough or my plan was too optimistic. Yeah? What options do you have? You could either go and try and control the people to get more work out of them, which you would do, but the other option is to say, well, I recognise that my plan was optimistic, let's change the assumptions in the plan and you're going to improve, therefore, your planning. I never want your plan to be achieved completely. Because if you achieve a hundred percent of what's in your plan, there's always a danger that they could've achieved a hundred and ten percent of what was in your plan and haven't been working hard. Yeah? So I really, my, my, my advice is not to aim for a hundred percent efficiency but always to programme five percent optimistically. Five percent, you know, you're giving the people the feeling that they can get there. Yeah? But never quite achieving it. But the only way to measure whether you're planning optimistic, pessimistically, realistically, is to do something like this. You can't do anything else. You've got to check all these other things. Check the sequence. Check the order. Check the er,but you've got to have some way, I believe, of measuring what's going on. What? No. I, I agree erm but you can work out these same things for the master plan. Yeah? And you can compare, which is quite interesting. A, a, nice one that you've brought up, Jane. You can, you can actually compare your actual performance on your short-term with your planned performance from your long-term. Yeah? And so you can get all these things going together. You can compare your performance on your long-term o on your short-term with your long-term, which is something that somebody brought up yesterday. How do we compare what we're doing on our short-term with what we said we would do on the long-term. We're not doing it in detail on individual activities, but we're getting the overall productivity correct. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I, I, I believe that this has got to be reported. Would you like to know how people are performing against your figures? There's a plea there. Just send them into him. Yeah. Send them into him. It'll be quite fascinating, wouldn't it. It's carried out for claims purposes. Correct. Correct. Yeah. How, how, how much use, how much, how use to, to controlling the project is information produced for claims. Bit late. It's quite often too late for the next project. Erm what, what contracts do I know that are still being er there's a major project erm when does that finish? When does, when when will its claim be finished? Shouldn't ask, should I? M forty? The M forty? Yeah. What I'd like to do sorry Very simple. I don't know, is the answer. I don't know. I, I don't know why this isn't set up, you will receive these things. If, if people sent them to you I suspect you would receive them quite happily. Yeah. But why, do you know why Now, could I, could I go through, cos I'd like, I'd like to at some stage ask you to do an exercise on this just to see first of all how complicated it is and then, at the end, how simple it is. Yeah? And I actually believe that for your programme because you've done most of the work, believe it or not, the problem is you haven't written everything down. I'm now going to say what you should've done is write a bit more down on your short-term programmes. Erm could we give out the, the handout cos I think I'd like them to refer to this on the All you've got to do is write these things down, cos you've, cos you've got most of this on the way through. Yeah? Would you, do you think you've got most of this on the way through? Sorry? Th this is not, well this, yeah. Well this, this, this I think is, is quite important. I think people are becoming more and more and it's not true financial implications here. We've prefaced that and the, the heading, I should have a copy, what? The, the, the, the heading on, on your thing which is financial considerations, I don't have my copy but never mind, I don't need it. The heading is not quite right, financial considerations, because they're not true finances they're only plays of measuring whether your programme is optimistic or pessimistic. They're, they're not really related to true finances. However, people could relate true finances and they certainly could be fed back directly if, if we, if we were using estimators. They, they could be used to feed back and complete a control loop within the company not just within the site. They can be used also to compare long-, medium- and short-term programmes, which fundamentally very simple calculation. In your handout, somewhere, I'm afraid I haven't got the pages er, cos I don't have my handout immediately to hand, er I've got here a short-term er programme. Yeah? This is very similar to one you've drawn up. It's not actually the same project it's for er a simple project. And the sort of things which we need in order to calculate this are the quantities of things that have been done, because you've got the allowances all you need is the quantities that have been done. Now on your hotel project it's terribly easy for most more difficult for er the bit that Sarah tackled which was the er public access area, because she didn't have one room, one room, one room. You can just count up the number of rooms that you're planning to do, can't you? It's very, very quick. Oh yes. You've got a planned percentage. So it's only the percentage that you've got here. On, on here where I've got a concrete type work more like and you switch it on before they arrive. Yes. Mm. Yes, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. But no it, it doesn't bother me. I don't mind you know on camera, I don't mind being on video, anything. But in fairness to your friends Larry, you can hardly Warts and all. Mm. Oh no no. do that and then I know You've got I can't see Mike and Robin making a cake , can you? No. No but Not , no no no. Robin necessarily but just temperaments I don't know but well I remember going out shopping and when I came back you'd got Jill. you'd gone out. No they were, they were all of them there. Were they? Nan and I were out shopping. When we got back Mm? it was christmas shopping I think. Mm. Anyway you'd been out and bought one of those m packets of m cake mix. Oh it would be ready mixed, yes . Well and they'd made little buns. They were very nice really. Oh it's a tribute to the The state of the kitchen wasn't. Well that'll be a tribute to the manufacturer, sure. Mm well I rem And Robin and L and erm Carol doing that er cabbage cabbage Oh that revolting That was horrible. That was terrible. I remember Jill though. I don't remember the mix but mm I don't know that, I vaguely remember now, yes but Oh they were all there Mm. because we'd gone out, I think it was the christmas shopping we were doing on our own. Was it? Mm. Mm. Yes I've got a hazy recollection but . Mm. Jill'll remember. But she was a lot younger surely, Jill? And she'd be a bit Oh she'd be young, erm Younger than them I mean. They weren't, oh they were younger than Carol Caroline and erm Ken. Mm mm mm. Mm. But then look at Chris. He must have been interested in cooking, mustn't he? I don't Chris No I think the young fellows today are more because of course they go into the flats don't they? Mm well that's true of course. I remember when Mike and Robin went into their flats I spent quite a long time with them Yeah I know. Mm. Mm. Mhm. Showing them how to do simple dishes. Mhm. But erm quite frankly I can't see myself ever getting given the same sort of circumstances. Well n no. I can't either. Knowing you I no it's laughable. Yeah. Can't imagine you meeting me with a nice cooked dinner and a a cake made by yo your own fair No I with a candle on . No. Use a soldering iron or a blow lamp or something, not Burnt toast. Ah no, it's not really burnt, it's the way I like it though. Must admit technically Well it used to smoke. Well yes technically speaking I suppose it is burnt but well done I Well it doesn't taste very nice. I can't agree cos I, that's how I like it. And the s Well you used to scrape some of it off because it was all over the Oh if it gets really charred I know but if it's really charred that's a bit Certain degree of grey blackness even but And how d'you get toast charred so that you've got to scrape it off but it isn't burnt? Oh I Well leaving it that little bit too long, you know. Remember Ro Robin coming home I don't believe it, burnt burnt toast from an electric toaster. I don't know how he does it. I don't know. Mm. Oh well. Doesn't feel like Sunday does it? No. I've not seen any more sight of that heron. No. I don't, I think it was just a flash in the pan. I don't think, well. I don't think I'm certain there's not I think it's much to do about nothing quite honestly. I do. I mean it may well be that we have to resort to some sort of er Well I don't feel like having a plastic heron. Well I mean how do all the rest of the pond they've not all got bloody herons, plastic herons perched on the side have they? No. Plastic But you know d'you remember me going round the corner and seeing that erm Mm. Mm. pond with all those plastic ducks on? Flipping ducks on it. Yeah I know. That might have been some deterrent of some description. I don't think so somehow. That was just but I'm n I'm certainly not having little plastic ducks Art nouveau. and little gnomes about. Mm. That's interesting er that erm comment Steve made about the postcard. And the bird of prey silhouette, you know? I can Mm. believe that being rather effective. Well actually I have read about the heron that er I think was it I'm not sure that What the plastic plastic heron ? Oh yes. Mm. Mm. No way. Mm. But that silhouette business, that could work you know. Mm. I can see that working. Birds of prey. Well really when you think, it's only the same way as er laying the hose amongst your flower beds. For cats. Oh the snake you mean? Yeah. Mm. Mm I've still to have that proved to me to be honest. It's a damn great snake Well I have. isn't it? If you think about it. Yes. Well I think well, you know when we used to leave ours across the, the lawn there? Mm, yeah. Well S Cat didn't bother. Samba no he No. Well he did a he did for a bit. Are you sure? Yes, I've watched him sort of er warily Waiting walk round. But then he got so used to it that he didn't bother. Mm, yeah. That's what I mean. It may, if it's any effect at all it's very short lived I think. Mm. I don't think pepper's a very useful deterrent. I've sprinkled loads of No. pepper round. One shower of rain and you've lost it anyway. Mm. I'd have thought. Mm. I think the only deterrent is putting netting or something over it but er Mm. you can't put netting over your whole garden can you? It's silly. No no. We'll have to watch that pond though leaves next year. Mm. Well this year of course. Mm. Well I can't really see what you can do, only have netting over that when the leaves start to fall. Well yes I could be a little bit more erm atten attentive to the damn thing couldn't I? We need to sca scrape quite a lot of that out but erm not all by any means. See a certain percentage have blown in I think off the grass and if I had some sort of a I was just er yeah. I was just gonna say that. Mm. Mm. I think our problem here is it gets so windy with being on the corner. Mm. Mm. Yeah. D'you want any more tea? Oh yes please. But I think mm mm. That was a silly question wasn't it? It was unnecessary wasn't it?oh yes I'll want a bit of a hand then. With the top window Yeah. I've left it with two screws holding it at the moment. As we did,painting the outside yeah. Yes. I it won't blow out though? No not at all. I'm gonna hold it while you take the two final screws out. Oh I see.? Yeah. Cos it's almost impossible to get at it. It won't erm I think What? once you've got the window done it won't be too bad will it? You mean the whole frame? Mm. And the opening light? Mm. It won't be too bad, will it? Oh I mean, what I mean is you've not Well there's not a tremendous amount of burning left. There's only one skirting board and the pipe cover. Mm. The casing round the other cupboard. Mm. And that's it I think. And possibly the edges of the cupboard doors, I don't know. Yes, they're not very brilliant. No. Mm certainly want cleaning up. I may end up taking them off completely though. I think that may be easier to do rather than do them in situ, you know? Are you going to have a piece of cake? Oh yeah. Mm. He's done this in two and then sandwiched them together. What two cakes and put them together, he's? Yes. Well I used to do that. Mm. It's quite good though. Mm. I'm trying to remember, did they have any, the kids? Erm I know they cut some for them but It's a wonder Caroline didn't. No. She usually stuffs doesn't she? Mm. Well yes. Mm. Did Jill say what time Caroline's appointment was? No. Er well not to me she didn't. No well. She pro she might have done to me but I can't remember. In the afternoon. They seem very confident they'll be back in time don't they? Twenty five to four to meet young Yeah. Pick him up at twenty five to four. There's a heck of a lot of burning off when you come to think of all the burning off of paint we're going to have to do. Oh god I know. You're telling me. But then Where possible I'll sand down obviously but there's there Yes but usually won't be many places I'd have thought. There isn't. It's No. Cos it's been piled on so Yeah. I can't get over that screw in the woodwork. I know! Good god. I've seen dust before but and bits of fluff and rag and stuff but I've never seen a bloody, and a nail damn great screw! Well it's the same as the, the way they've papered the walls round. They've just papered over things. You know? They've papered over,I know . I know. Mm. It wouldn't have been, if they'd had any furniture in when we, when we first got in I wouldn't have been surprised to see it painted round there as well. Oh the you mean? Oh aye. mm. Mm. Mm. No, coming back to the . I would prefer to keep it in natural wood if we can but Oh yeah. all those splodges of white are putty. Are they? Mm. Unfortunately. And there's nothing at all you can cover them with? Well except to take them out. Scrape the bits of putty out and put some filler in that will accept stain. I think that'd be better. Mm. But that's a fairly long job though. Er yes, but I mean it it it would be worth it. Mm. See it won't accept stain anyway with that varnish on. Well I don't like this colour stain anyway. Well I don't. It's a nasty colour. You can't burn that off though. It's dust. You couldn't What? just give a dab of paint over? A dark paint. It'd stand out a mile wouldn't it? Would it? Well perhaps not as obviously Well if you did it with a small brush? Well it would still stand out wouldn't it cos it's a different colour? Mm. Not as You don't not as obvious perhaps as the white but That's what I mean. Mm. Mm. But I'll have to get rid of all that varnish before it'll take any other stain. Mm. See what it's like. I what it's like when? When you've got rid of the varnish. Mm. I may have to use varnish stripper. Get a kind of varnish stripper for it. Well it might be better than erm doing it any other way because I don't think it'll burn off. No I'm thinking of the fumes. After all the other fumes I don't think that'll matter. After what? After the fumes of the paintwork, I don't think that'll Won't that be worse than ? No. Not as bad as. No no. Oh. Cos I remember when you did twenty seven. Mm. Ah well that was a varnish paint. That was quite That was a varnish paint. And that won't, that'll just be stain? Varnish. No. It is a stain varnish. In other words varnish, with a stain added to the varnish before you apply it. Mm. As opposed to staining the wood and then varnishing it with Oh I see. relatively clear varnish. Mm. Once we've got those tiles off at the bottom there Mm? well we might as well paint Well I think, I mean they're very nice, it would rather, I'd prefer to, it would be nice to have tile there to break it , but not those damn things and they certainly won't come off and go back. They're a bit messy aren't they? Mm. One two three four five six seven eight, twenty four. Two dozen. Mm. How many did we get in the pack? The pack. I don't know . I think it was twenty five. I really don't know. Oh it varies, the pack doesn't it? Mm. Think it is twenty five actually. pack anyway . But erm finding the right tile . Yeah. In any case you don't want them all the same do you? I think we're better off just snapping it off. Wonder what state the wall's in? Doesn't really matter all that much. I'd skim over the plaster anyway. Mm. Be a right mess won't it? Mm. It's highly probable I'll finish up skimming anyway. Mm I was just thinking that. mm. I mean the way, what have they done here? Well what have they done anywhere? Mm. Well they ran short of tiles or they ha they wouldn't be bothered cutting. I bet That's more likely the case. Mm. One two three four Twenty four. five six seven eight Twenty four on this front face wasn't there? Yes, there was three more there. Mm. So that ma er in any case they'd of got some of it being the two colours. Yeah. It looks quite effective . Oh it's quite effective if it's done correctly, yes. As it is now it's bloody awful. Have you had some cake? Er no I'll give it a miss right now thankyou. I'm a bit full from my sandwich. No I I'll enjoy it more later on. No no. Mm. Cup of tea would go down like a bomb but you've not eaten it. Possibly yes. Mm. Mhm. I meant to ask, oh Aha aha. Pardon? Right. Right. Pardon? Er oh yes, yes I have actually. Let's put this cake back in its tin. I'll have a cup of tea then bash on with my window then I think. Well the sooner it's finished Well, yes because it is at least dry today. Mm. But erm It's gonna make a hell of a racket sanding down afterwards you know. Well it can't be helped. No it can't be helped, no. I'll probably have to get some medium grade paper too. Cos I've got a lot of gr fine and coarse but with us making a row won't they? I can't think that all that much goes through you know, to be honest. Obviously Yeah well but by and large we've not Yeah. really been on their wall have we? No that's what I mean. When we start down here . Some of the heavier banging and the, the high pitch high frequency erm noises like me drill and erm Just keep it down to erm Mm. Mm. a minimum keep Yeah yeah. not do it late, just keep stopping before it gets too late. Well exactly what we have been doing. Cos it is annoying isn't it, you know? Oh yeah. But there's not an awful lot you can do is there? I mean if we had a firm of workmen in they'd They'd still do, yeah. they'd make more noise wouldn't they? Oh rather more noise, yeah. But erm And the clatter of tea cups. But then I was meant to mention, ask Rachel if she'd seen the photograph cos Mike didn't know about the two photographs that er Rachel and Louise have taken. Mm. Have I given yours, has yours got sugar in? I don't know. I really don't know. I'm not sure whether that has ha I can usually tell er I've Well you claim to be able to. No I think it's, I can normally, yeah. Mm. Mm. I'm glad I found out what that is. Yeah. What the hell's it called, a what? Erm Something anemone wasn't it? Anemone blander Oh yes? February to April. Requires f the first to flower is A blander. February to April. Requires full sun as flowers close in shady conditions. Mm will it get it there? Grow it in the rockery or naturali naturalize it in grassland . Mm. That sounds like it. Well it looks like the illustration doesn't it? Well it looks li yes. It does. Mm. Mm can go by the leaves, I thought the leaves look like it too. Well we look like getting, if it spreads Has it yeah as much as it has there we look like getting . Has it got the same number of petals on it? Yes, it similar, yes. It's di , that's di , they differ. Oh yeah. Not just the colour and the number of Well I'm not sure but I'm not going out to count them. Well it's . I would have thought. Must get some rose fertiliser you know too because erm I don't suppose the original plants have been fed for generations, literally. Oh you mean for those ramblers? Yeah. Yeah. Well those ramblers and all over the place, mm. Mm. It looks to me as if it's going to blooming rain again. Yeah. I'm fed up with this weather. Well it's a good general purpose fertiliser isn't it? Yes. What was the other one? Growmore Growmore. No. Erm You're the gardening expert. No I think it was the rose fertiliser, they said use it for the tomatoes as well. Yeah that's right, yeah. Ah! That was right erm it was the tomato fertiliser wasn't it, that was quite good for something? As well, er you know as well as the rose fertiliser. Mm. Yes, they can use rose fertiliser for tomatoes. But also tomato fertiliser apparently is useful for I don't know. Look it up at the end of the book. Incidentally what's this er operation that Jenny was on about? Er not Jenny, Josie was on about this morning that er Jenny had? Caesarian. Oh she had a caesarian did she? I was forgetting she had a caesarian. Yes course she has. That's probably why it's Of course. taken her to get on her feet . Of course, good god yes. I was thinking it was knit one purl one on the stitches you know, but mm. Of course, oh yeah. Oh yes. Yes it was on the radio this morning about that erm it is in England somewhere I think a woman's given birth to a fifteen pound some ounces kid. Oh dear me. Good gracious. Tremendous size that is isn't it? Mm. Yeah. Mind its weight, I don't know about the size but mm. We seem to have a tremendous lot of seagulls don't we? Over that playing field there. Well it's being so windy isn't it? Yeah well I, no I'm generalizing throughout the year. Well we're not that far from the sea are we? Of course not, that's true. Yeah. Mm. Oh yes but I mean they they seem to concentrate pretty well round these playing fields for some reason. blackbird there. Yeah I know. the way they land. Yeah it's interesting to watch the different birds, the different methods of landing. Some are quite accurate. The others are a bit sprawling those blackbirds I think . Mm the . Yeah. caw caw caw That looks like an old one to me doesn't it? An old fella Yeah. Well not an old fella necessarily. I'm still sort of puzzling what the best thing, best thing to do for that hedge down there. Cos we can't er until we get it cleared all the way along it although, it seems to change. If you look Hang on. What seems to change? The hedge. If you look from here In what way does it ch ? Well if you look from here I'm looking from here. And then you go along. I'm going along. By the time it gets to that all that rubbish that we're going to shift. Er y oh yes, there in front. Well then if you look it tends to change to a different variety trees. Oh it does there. See what you mean. Yes. Yeah I don't it definitely does change doesn't it? Mm. I don't know what they are, but one of those trees has little catkins on it. Very poor. Yes. So it obviously I'm not surprised they're poor . I know I know. Mm. But erm it wants the roots clearing Yeah. and feeding and Mm. Mm. Mhm. It's a shame though to let them die because th they're I like to have a, a different I don't want it all the same. It's boring isn't it? Oh you're getting back to the privet hedge and suburbia aren't you? That gives interest, especially Same into the corner. Mm that's why I don't want to clip that erm bottom hedge too cleanly. No but I think Lop it down. Yes I agree. Lop it down but erm I think we need to, for th this time round because it'll soon get, you know Take its own . Mm. Mm. Yes maybe you're right. But I do think for now we're just going to have to cu chop it down. Mm. It's going to get worse and worse if we don't. Have to keep our eyes open for a decent er path cutter, hedge cutter you know? Yes. I looked in the paper to see if there was any. No there weren't. They're very expensive to buy aren't they? Oh new they are certainly yes. Yes, and you want a double action one? Preferably. Not essentially. I, I wouldn't think that erm like the different length of the blades. You don't want a very big one. I don't think you need the, think it's a twenty four is it?no. I would think they're more trouble than they're worth unless you've got Yeah. They could be. a great big Mm. Oh and you'd have to be that little bit more careful too. Mm. Yes exactly. Mm. Mm. . I think that's what And again, unless the motor is fairly hefty Mm. it could conceivably be easy to burn the motor out. Because it's doing more work isn't it? I don't . Mm well in theory. A bigger area, bigger length. You're cutting more at the same time. Yeah I was looking at the petrol driven ones. Good god. I know. That's what I thought. Stone the crows. Cor. It took me breath away so Good gracious me. Mm. No no. Just how What? much erm how much can you cut with those as opposed to having needing the erm, the other ones that are used for trees. Erm Chainsaw ? chainsaw. I couldn't, forget the word. The chainsaw. Oh they'll take er do a fair amount of work but erm I think, certainly as far as the hedge is concerned Well I know that. Yeah hang on. Hang on. In a well established hedge like that Yeah. I would think er the loppers, if the erm hedgecutter won't tackle it the loppers will Yes but what I was thinking more Mm. is the rest of the, round there round at the side there. I mean a lot of the you know when we start getting rid of all the rubbish down that side? Er I wouldn't like to put er erm a hedgecutter through that erm that bush there. That's a little bit too heavy for it. Which bush? Well the one where the hedge terminates and Mm well. That dead looking e well dead No. No but would it do to, I mean you're going to have a lot of the stuff that we chopped off Yeah. to put to, if we're getting a trailer and getting rid of it all. Yeah. Yeah. You're going to have to cut it down still further into smaller pieces aren't you, to get as much as you can in the trailer? Oh I see what you mean, to cram on the trailer. Yes. Yes yes. Will a hedgecutter do there or will you have to u revert to erm a chainsaw? Er combination of both I should think. I, well I'm not too concerned about that anyway. I can use the loppers. If we were doing it seven days a week, fair enough, you'd probably need a chainsaw but anything, the loppers or the handsaw. Oh handsaw? Oh that's hard work. No. No no no no not the really not the thick ones Mm. But erm Well I was just thinking of taking the work out of it. Mm it's one hell of a lot of work But you see we don't really need a chainsaw do we? No I wouldn't say so normal but er there's quite a lot to No. No. No. To hire one possibly for a specific specific job but I wonder how much they are to hire? Not very dear. Oh aren't they? What erm chainsaws? Mm. I think last time I looked at the hire list, price, price list Mm. I think about five six quid a day something like that, they were last year. Mm. Oh that's not bad really. Oh it isn't bad if you've got a lot of erm chainsaw work to do. That can be done in a day you know. Yeah. Mm. Now whether that's erm including all the protective clothing or not I dunno. I don't know. There might be a different charge for that but Er did you think any more about the er rubbish clearance that was, they were advertising in the paper? I mean what d'you think? Oh the twelve quid's worth wasn't it? Was it twelve? Sixteen. Sixteen quid for one load. What's a load? What is, well yes. Anything that'll fill a skip, it'll be a skip. Skip . And I suspect that'll be the smallest skip, I don't know. I would imagine so. Did it say from? What did it just say? No I think it just said sixteen pounds a load and I Mm. Mm. Mm. thought mm I wonder how much a load is. Well yes, it's probably the smallest skip. But it'd save a lot of hard work if you got rid of quite a lot of it. See I don't see erm them shifting very much for that because by the time you've got a bloke out paid his wages, paid for the the erm skip shifter, transporter you know. Well if this is a skip. It might just be a trailer. It might be a trailer. It might be an open back lorry, you know. Mm. Mm. A lorry? Yeah. Well we could get rid of qu I doubt it whether they're going to shift that Well, you know mm. I doubt that. But again on a costing basis I mean hourly. How long is it gonna take a chap to load loads? Yes but I'm thinking I mean there's so much to do here Larry, you er you know, you're not a young man any more. You can't er do too much. Er I had noticed. Yes. Yes. Yes. It's no good wearing yourself out if you can get anything done I was worn out already. What are you on about ? You know what I mean. I'm knackered. Mm. But it makes sense to me to have a little bit of help. Oh I'm not adverse to having bit of help Mm. you know of the right sort. No no no, no no no, no Erm You're usually pretty independent. A little perhaps but er I mean you can have people that are more damn trouble than they're worth can't you? Quite honestly. Mm. Spend your time watching Well you know the, all the stuff that you've got at the side where Ah well that's straight on the trailer, yeah. Is it? Well more, more or less, yeah. One or two things I'll be keeping but most of it it's just straight, that's why it's all piled up ready to go. Ah but I wasn't just meaning on the concrete bit. I was meaning on the soil. There's loads and loads of what you trimmed off the . Oh that's not rubbish that's just erm off the trees isn't it? Well it's still got to be got rid of hasn't it? Chuck it over the fence and it'll go straight in, more or less straight in the trailer won't it? It'll be just like you to get your trailer and your car down there when er arrive and . Oh highly probable. Sod's law, yes . I know . I can't get over the fact that, that all What? all through the winter we've had daisies all over the grass. Oh yes you mean the fact that they've been in flower ? Mm. Mm. You don't usually see daisies do you ? I honestly don't know Nina. I don't know. Mm don't think it's dry enough to cut the grass is it? Oh I w , no I wouldn't do it today. No, crikey no. No I don't think so. It doesn't look very promising. No. Mm. Mm. It makes it hard work doesn't it? Oh yes. Have to do a bit at a time. I'm going to investigate, see if I can't do a conv I don't think for one minute I will but it's possible do a conversion er into erm the box type. Cos that way all the or most of the cuttings at least, go into the box wouldn't they? It's possible. Oh it might be more trouble than it's worth. It might be. It might sound a bit potty but utilizing that small vacuum cleaner and cutting the erm Ah don't use No? No I, I prefer using it just as it is quite frankly. Well i it's not a big thing, it's only you know what I mean don't you? That yellow and green one? Yes I know what you mean but I don't fancy you messing about with the grasscutter. No Cos I find it if there's anything else attached to it It depends which mounting. Keep the centre of gravity low and there'd be no problems. No I don't, I can't agree with you there. Mm. Maybe not, no. No, leave well alone. Mm don't you? And then you just make a mess of what you've already got. It's quite possible but erm Mm but I, I mean I can use it as it is now but anything else on to it I would find it difficult. Well I'm gonna bash on with the erm Right, are you ready for the window yet? Well er yes please. We can do it now then. Well I'll come and do that then Okay. Right. And hopefully by teatime I should have got the burning done. Right, away we go. What's it called ling Ling. Mm. Is this the rather uncovered one then? To erm No. No. We never did we didn't used to see much of it when we lived up in Manchester. No that's what I thought yeah. Mm mm. Mhm. Mm. Mm We'll soon be able to plant the er radishes leeks and spring onions. Mm. Yeah. We'll have to get a gro-bag. What, to mix with the soil or? I need er oh no. No I meant er not for that, for er Oh I see. re-potting the tomatoes. Mm. They're getting to the stage where erm I shall have to prick them on. Prick them out. Yeah. Prick them out! How on earth d'you remember that, prick them out? It's a tedious job. But it's worth it. Well not really. I wonder how Jill's are doing? Mm dunno. Not a clue it's Ours will need staking but hers won't. With being bush things you mean? Mm. What were they like, those ones we had before? Grew Which ones? Well the ones we grew previously.. What were they like? Mm. What d'you mean? Well edible wise? Well you ate them didn't you? Oh definitely I know that but were they pleasant, unpleasant? Rather nice or run of the mill or? Oh they were those little ones. Little sweet ones. Oh that's right. Oh yes I remember those. Mhm. They were , I liked those but I can't remember what kind they were. Mm. What were those go on. D'you remember growing some bush ones though? A few years ago? No I don't frankly, no. And they came out, they looked like peppers. Mm. Oh that's right. And they weren't very brilliant at all. I remember growing those on the roof of the shelter. What were those? Ordinary tomatoes were they? Mm. Mm. Moneymaker Mm. These aren't Moneymakers. I'm not going for Moneymakers. Any particular reason, or Well they won't do well? because erm when you listen to Gardeners' Questions Mm? they advo you know advocate to put different ones in so Mhm. I looked for something different. Well if you don't try them you never find out do you? Mm. Change of weather's turned the place into a hive of activity hasn't it? Pardon? The change in weather, you The weather? Oh yes. power saw, power drill. Lawnmowers. Strimmers. Brings us out in our thousands doesn't it? Mm. The front looks better though. Erm oh yes, yes it does. Mm. That chap's making a good job across the way you know. Which one? Round the corner. Doing what? Well he's just rendering the the house. He's a builder fair enough but nevertheless he's doing a good job. The erm lives next door to Anna? Lisa Anna? Mm. Yes they look very nice don't they? Those er Last two houses? Mm. Oh yeah. Mm. Mm chap round the corner young fella, what maybe in his late twenties perhaps a rather seedy, scruffy looking bloke Mm? keeps saying hello, I'm not completely sure where he lives. He seems to know me cos he erm when we've been out and big smile, hello you know? Oh? He may be somebody's father or a kid's father, I don't know. Mm. When did they do their little run then? Who? Lisa. Oh my god I don't know what erm oh well it was toward the end of the week wasn't it? Yeah. Was it Thursday? Oh Wednesday it was going to be. Mm. Wednesday, that's right w weather permitting Wednesday . Mm. It's taking them long enough to Mm. come round for their er spoils isn't it ? Mm. Well apparently they've got to have the loot in tomorrow. Oh. Or by tomorrow anyway. the boy ? Mm. Well ask him the next time you see him. They don't come for the fifty P's now do they? No. No. It could well be the meters have been changed to erm twenty P. Mm. Probably have. I did the lawn twice. Once one way, cleaned it up and then did it the o opposite way. With the grass being so long, you know? grass wasn't it. Oh it was, yeah. We, we'll have to be feeding it Mm too soon. oh this year definitely. I'll ask Carolyn what it is that she uses on hers because hers gets rid of the weeds as well. Oh I know it's a combined fertiliser and weed killer. And I can't remember what she said it was. The only weeds we've got to get rid of really are those erm are they dandelions? Mm. Mm. And I doubt whether it can get rid of dandelions. Mm she said it does. really? Mm. Oh. Was it we went to? Mm. With your mother I mean. Yeah. Hawthorn Cottage or something. Hawthorn no Jasmine House. Jasmine House, well Jasmine House. mm. Oh did we go oh go on I don't know what pardon? I don't know what kind of jasmine it was. Jasmine nudiflorum . Yeah. Well christ well Mm. What's on the magic tonight then? Haven't looked. Apart from The Bill that is you know. You're joking. It's Monday not Tuesday. Oh my god so it is. Do you know I could have sw is it Mo is it Monday? Oh yes of course it is. Good grief. Oh well. Mm. I suppose that politics will be mentioned. We don't go to the school to vote, I was asking Josie. Oh where do we go? The erm village hall apparently. The village ha oh that place where they had the erm used goods sale? Mm. Mm. Well I presume that was it. Mm. That is the village hall, yeah. Mm. Oh Mm. It's logical when you think about it cos being a small community Mm. you'd be able to cope quite easily there wouldn't you? Mm. Why disrupt the school and shift stuff . Yeah. Mm. Mm. She was saying Mm? she doesn't know what she's going to vote, she can't make her mind up. Mm. Mm. I've never been so indecisive as I am this time. Well I'm quite decisive really. conservative again. Are you? Well I'm not struck on on Neil Kinnock Oh Paddy Ashdown'll As far as I'm Paddy no but the party never get in. No no no no. That's why people won't vote er a lot of people won't vote for them. Cos they're considered a wasted vote aren't they? But erm you're voting for a party not for a character. Mm. Although I don't know, look at Maggie. Yeah I mean she for a bit she was the party wasn't she? Old bossy boots herself. Mm. Well she did quite a lot of good in the early days didn't she? Well she appeared to have done yeah, mm. Well she put a stop to a load of strikes. We were on we used to have these That was on the way anyway. Mm. If she hadn't done it somebody else would have done. It's a pendulum business isn't it? No union, downtrodden workers and so create the unions and swing the pendulum . Mm. I think people were fed up with the strikes Larry. Well that. Even some of the strikers . Mm. I mean you've got no choice have you? No. If your union came out you were out. One out, all out . Mm they and they had those the three day weeks when the electricity was off. Oh yes, that's right. I'd forgotten about that. Mm. of problems. Mm. Was really wasn't it? Mm. It seemed that Smith has got a better image than the present chancellor hasn't he? Mm. John Smith? Mm. Yes. Pity he couldn't, doesn't come over better . He may be quite an able chap. Mm? Mm. He probably is. I s don't suppose Mm. he'd of got where he is. No. Exactly. Mm I can't understand why people want to be in politics. Power. Mm. Why do people want to be on the stage? Mm I know. Why do people want to be vicars and things? In the public eye. What did Ken say, little Ken say he wanted to be? Erm It wasn't an engineer? No no no. Erm Something to do with growing things? It wasn't an accountant was it? No no no. It was something to do with growing things. That sort of came over quite strongly. Oh no that was his second choice. Was it? Mm. Are you sure? Mm. Oh. No I growing things. Still I don't suppose he'll be . No. Kids very seldom are are they? No they're not. Oh Major I bet he wanted to be right from being a kid, wanted to be prime minister. Ken's got a very retentive brain hasn't he? Very? A retentive memory hasn't he? Very Oh extremely yeah. Like his father. He never forgets a thing does he? No. Steve doesn't. Mm. When you and I went up to to look after them? Yeah. Mhm. I mean he was only a tiny wasn't he? Oh crikey yeah. . You couldn't fool him, we used to play hide and seek and you couldn't fool him. Mm. Mm. Oh he's a very bright little boy but Mm. You can't really relax with him can you? No. He's switched on Mm. It's a shame isn't it? Mm and they shouldn't be can't, rather it can't be down to lack of contact I wouldn't have thought. No. In part I suppose it's due to erm complete contrast of lifestyle between Jill and Steve's way and our way. Could be. She was just like an automated programmed doll, oh god. Poor kids can't help it of course but No she's such a nice little thing Oh she's a nice little kid, yeah. Pathetic really to see her wa waving like that. I always want to cuddle her. Press the wave switch now, plonk you know. Aah! Mm. Oh well. She may change quite a lot, on the surface anyway. Oh she has done already hasn't she? She's better than she was. Oh indeed yes. Yes. Certainly has. Mm. I mean it's most unnatural for a child not to be chatting away in the presence of grandparents isn't it? Unless the grandparents are a couple of weirdies . Perhaps she thinks we're two weird, no I'm weird anyway. Could be right. Could be right. Yeah. Yeah. It's not a bad evening now is it? No. Have you seen a weather forecast for ? No. very brief this morning I think. We were due for better weather today which we've had. And then I think more rain tonight . But as the girl in the post office said erm it's usually different here than the weather forecast which is probably is, the gulf stream It's not too bad finding where you want to go Mm. when it comes to looking for x-ray or path lab or whatever it is but finding your way out. Very seldom they have continuing er continuity of markers saying exit, you know, or this way out. Wouldn't it, it's stupid that Mm. isn't it? You can't get out quick enough can you, usually? Not short on the emergency exit signs, but yeah exactly. Mm. I mean once you've got in. But once you've gone down and turned left then turned right and gone ahead Mm. It's like a labyrinth you know . I know. Certainly if you've not been before. Mm. Mm. Exactly. I asked somebody the way out and she offered to show me . Mm. Oh! Oh yeah, cleaner, mm. Well Carolyn, when Carolyn was working at Witham Withamshaw Mm? she said it was very lonely at night when you were walking down the corridors. Yes I remember you saying. Oh it would be of course, yeah. Mm oh it would be. It's quite a, it seems at least quite a pleasant hospital. Quite a pleasant atmosphere. Mm. Mm. I shouldn't imagine they have the problems that they do at erm Withamshaw and oh no, they won't of course. Oh no. And do you remember the What? when Carolyn was working there they had this intruder. Well they're often having intruders,go on I can't remember all the details. There was quite a to-do about it in the paper. Mm. I, I know Carolyn said that they in the end Yeah. they refused to work on their own Oh that's right I remember. Yes yes. Yeah. because they were so way out. There was no way Mm. that they could have summoned help or anything else. Mm. Mm. And di didn't she have to leave ? Pardon? Didn't she ha well, to get from A to B didn't she have to leave the building somewhere? Yes. Yeah. Yeah I thought so. Mm. They're not too bad here but at Witham Withamshaw it'd be a different kettle of fish altogether . Er yes. Mm. Mm. Mm because do you remember when we had to go and collect her? That night. Yeah. Erm hang on. It was very, there's some very lonely lanes there. I remember going late at night. Were we collecting her? Mm. Were we really? Mm. she was in the flat. And she'd passed out in the phone box. I remember that happening but And that's when we went to collect her there. And that was Withamshaw? That was Withamshaw yeah. Mm. Er sh yes they were in er where were they living? The flat then, they weren't they didn't have the house. Mm. Mm. You said. And she'd only just gone to the end of the road to phone Ken was working away. Oh yes, that's right. Mm. Wasn't he? Mm. And Nicky wanted to, it was only a cock's stride down the road. Andrew was in bed and she just whipped out so Nicky could say goodnight to her daddy. Oh yes, that's right . Mm. Oh dear. What a performance. Mm. Yes, you get so used to having a phone at home don't you? Mm. It's very handy. Having to go to the end of the road, well it's daft now. That's if you can find one working. Not too bad here from what I've seen. No. No. No but I mean in Manchester it was shocking wasn't it? Oh well! It was a very pleasant surprise if there is one working. Mm. You know I was just thinking Were you? Jolly good. That well Lil and Nev going up on the mini break W tomorrow is it they go? Yeah Wednesday to Saturday, yes. Mm go on. I'll bet they hear of these mini breaks through the wh I can't remember She probably her name. Was it Carol? No it's not Carol. No. No it's I don't know what her name is but I know the one you mean. The travel agency girl? Mm. Young woman, yeah. I wouldn't be surprised. Probably. Mm. Mm. I'm wondering what made them change their mind over the er knock through into the garage. Well I suppose they thought it was a bit too much. I mean the place they've got there, it er it would mean Oh I'm not sugge that them decorating I know. the whole lot again wouldn't it? Mm. Oh no way. Yes but surely they thought that through before they got to the stage that I mean even with the mortgage Well that's probably why they've decided against it. No. Before they got to the stage of asking for quotes because Nev had moved all his tools and tackle and stuff to clear it. Had they actu actu really had a quote? I don't know. I really don't know. Mm. They were due to get one. Any time. They might have had one and found out what it was going to cost and were decided against . Possibly. They're having a mini break instead. Oh possibly again i it's just possible actually that the construction of the bungalow didn't lend itself properly well to knocking through. Well I think oh well it's so beautiful I mean as it is in there, they don't need anything doing to, I mean Well they've got it nice. They've got it so they don't get s sort of minimum you know? Labour. Yes. So I shouldn't imagine that erm I mean once we've got through this one I'm blowed if I'm going to do it just for the sake of doing it. It'll have to really need it before we start again . Well mm. Oh yeah I know. But they, they are a little bit inclined to what shall we spend some money on next, aren't they? Mm. Mm. Well if it's there fair do. Oh! Fair do, I know but er it's up to them what they do with their money I know but mm. What's happened to the rest of the paper Larry? There's only half of it there. Well which paper ? The Telegraph. Last week's Telegraph. There's only one I haven't the faintest idea. sheet there. Just one One sheet? Well one section. Oh. I don't know . I haven't the faintest idea. It's just disappeared. I haven't moved it at all. Not knowingly anyway. No. It's possible I've used it but I don't erm don't recall. Never had an occasion to use, well the only time I've used a newspaper as far as I know this afternoon when I emptied the bag. And that was Because we were going to phone up Yeah I know. the piece at with the Yes. housing in. Yes for the er We were going to phone up and that seems to have the two bungalows yeah. Mm. It is incidentally . It's where I thought it was. Is it? On the left hand side and erm it's pretty near the main road. Mm. Oh I know where you mean. Oh you do? I think I do anyway. The area . Mm. I thought it was on the main road? It is on the main road. Oh I see what you mean, the front's pretty near the main road? Would that bother them do you think, being so close to the main I don't know Nina. I haven't the faintest idea. Cos it looks quite a decent reasonable bungalow. I wonder how much they want for it? I d I could only glanced at it as I drove past cos the traffic was moving fairly quickly for the lights there you know. But Mm. I bet the layout's something similar to that one we saw further . Probably. There's not much of a difference between No, it looks the same shape somehow doesn't it? No. Mm, yeah yeah. fairly tight. But that, they're, the one that Sorry, go on. we went to er look at, four of them, in the middle of er the three. Oh yeah. Where Whereabouts was that? There was four four it was in the middle. The girl that works at the garage,sh next door to that. Oh not a bungalow, a house you mean? Sorry, yeah. A house. Well that one, I mean everybody said oh that's too near to the main road so if that was too near to the main road so will this one be. Well did Carolyn say that? I can't remember. No Dawn said. Neither can I. Well Dawn thought it was. I certainly thought it was. But then I know. I didn't. I don't like traffic noise. It w yes it, I'd, it wouldn't have bothered me that. Mm. Mm. But it, I can quite see that it would bother some people. Mm. Mm. But it's not as if it's a main road like Oh crikey, no. in Manchester is it ? Oh no. No. There you could complain but I, I wouldn't say you get that much traffic at night. Mm. Mm. Certainly not at night you won't get a lot, no. Erm Well you wouldn't notice during the day. You don't notice the same. It's when everywhere's quiet. And you're trying to sleep. Yes but it's noises you don't notice, if they're continuous then they become That's right. True. Yeah. Mm. Still I mean that's one of the beauties here wasn't it? It's so peaceful, so quiet. Mm. There's no noises to get used to really. Mm. Apart from the birds and the bees and the Yeah. sycamore trees. And Sambo . And Sambo flying around yeah . No he just crawled under the door sort of glare,glare at me and then scootled, shooted past, you know. Why? Shot I should say. Shooted past . Shooted past. He shooted past as well as shot past. Mm. I wonder why? I don't know because he he's never really been frightfully keen on me, that cat. Maybe it's probably has a rough working idea it's you that put the fountain on today. I doubt that very much indeed. Get on . No. No. No I try to him but you know but er He's lovely. He's alright. He let me sort of tickle him and god knows what but er he's pretty wary for some reason. It may well be of course that father was a bit er all dog and no cat sort of person, you know? I dunno. Mm. The they're both, they're all in lovely condition aren't they? Beautifully cared for. Oh yes. No argument about that, yes. Good nick Mm. and well fed and Yes. Mm. Mm. Now we've decided not to do that little built up wall affair at the front Hang on. Oh there, yes. Yeah. it erm we won't need to be bothered quite so much about getting paving stones. Or stones, suitable stones to build will we? Well we won't be needing so many that's for sure, no. I want some for the erection at the side of the pool there. What? Oh there. To take the waterfall. Mm. It's only gotta match the existing er Well how many do you want? I mean don't you want to put it on bricks? Not bricks as such, no. just Cut some of the paving stones I see. to roughly brick size Mm. and use that. As I have done with that erm Well how many will you need? collection Pardon? You won't need that many for there. Not no no no no no. Not an awful lot, no. I can pad out with sto with er brick where it doesn't show. It'd look a bit odd with bricks though, I think. Mm. True. Oh yeah. And then we want matching slabs really don't we? Yes. That'd be nice actu to have erm something you could sit on there. Mm. Wonder what do they do with old gravestones when they've er Ooh I hate to think. when they've abandoned the graveyard. Well they seem to be there for er you know when they did all that erm levelling at erm Southam Southam cemetery? Yeah. I wonder what they did with them then? They just flattened it didn't they and and . It's a bit much when you come Yes, they made it so it could be to think of somebody paying a fortune for a Yes. gravestone and then they come along and flatten it. Oh there must have been some sort of arrangement, I don't know. To, to cope with that though. Well quite a few of them Well bear in mind a lot of them were very old ones and there are Mm. probably no nearest and dearest left surviving. Mm. Mm. True. I seem to remember papers about that. Erm that removal or disposal or alteration of the any creation around the grave was erm can be done at the discretion of, of the Mm. parks authority or whatever it is, yeah. It was better really when they'd done it Parks and cemeteries, yeah. wasn't it? It was much neater. Oh yes. Both in far more pleasant to the eye Oh yes. far neater and er oh yeah. They can get more bodies in too . Ooh! Shall we change the subject? No I ha! No I just had a thought because there must be stacks of old grave gravestones around. Some of the marble they cracking cracking bit of, yeah I know. No they yes they are. Should be for the price they charge too. Ridiculous forking out a fortune. I wonder how many I wonder how many people have now got them as hearths? Now this marble er this kind of marble hearths. Yes you've got, yeah. Yeah that's a point. That's a point. I don't like that thing we've got there. I think they're rather thicker than that, the damaged gravestone. Mm. When you think of all the . Go on. Mind you it it's indestructible really isn't it? Oh Once you've got it down. I wouldn't say indestructible, but I know what you mean, yeah. Yeah. Yeah very very longlasting, yeah. Depends on the quality of the marble too doesn't it? Yeah. Obviously. No I was gonna say, when you think of all the money that's spent with these very elaborate er headstones erm creations showing angels looking down on them, plonking at their harps and god knows what. They look quite nice from one point of view but er fifty seventy eighty hundred years later what the hell does it matter? You know? Mhm well I suppose it does to some people. We've got to decide what to do at our fireplace yet haven't we? Ooh what a problem. Well if we get some headstones it'll be different . If you know if you, pardon? If you take Cor. the top off, the wooden part Er yes. The mantelpiece? Yes. Yeah. Do you think it'll it's sort of cut so that the er it fits on top of the brickwork? That one is I'm pretty sure, yes. Yeah. Do you think it'll look still look cock-eyed, the brickwork? Yes. Mm. Mind you it won't matter if we erm will it? Oh no that will . Fancy building, I mean that must have been done when, when the house was built. No. No no, it's not original that. No. the original one then? You can see where the original fire surround was. Oh. Look at the plaster work there behind it, above it. Mm. And where's the hearth different hearth isn't it? Mm. Mm. Yes, that's right. Mm. I'll be glad when that's done. It's going to be a big job really. Mm. No I should imagine it's a typical sixties, late sixties erm well early sixties er tile surround, you know? Mm. It's not When you look there's, there's really there's only this room Go on. to remove the paper. Erm Er the the the two rooms, like the big room and the bathroom And our bedroom. Oh there's not much to move in There's in there, no. in the be because I think Not, no. the paper that's in the wardrobe alcoves? Yes. Well if that's firm it'll erm be washing over there won't it? Lick over. Oh yes. Yes it's good enough there. Well there's only the little bit on the breast of the er the chimney breast type of thing There's between the two yeah yeah. that needs removing. Mm. Mm. Mm. And that was, that came off quite easily on the other wall. Yeah. . Mm. There's not that much to do so this is the main one really. And the bathroom . Mm. For wallpaper removal? Oh yes. I need to see how those steamers work, how well they work. Well, they must work fairly well because erm Mm. well Joan and Clive were saying they did them. Yes and Derek remember, next door? Mm. And Terry , he said . He hadn't used one before, and he was a bit cackhanded. Mm. So they must have been pretty good . Mm. Mm. Nice just to Carolyn was saying that a friend of theirs down the road she hired one Mm. and finish she didn't know where to stop . And she it was so quick. Yes it was very efficient. You mean it was working so quick and easy? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And erm she was very impressed. Oh. Do you remember the old days when it was standard practice to put one paper on top of another? Ooh! How many pa With the overlap. I know. How many papers did we move You know? off the er Oh god I don't know. the old . Oh about seven. Oh dear . Yes. Yes it probably was. Yeah. Mm. What a job. It was a heck of a long way up there as well wasn't it? Yeah. But do you remember the borders? The edges I should say at the, at the roll? Mm. Yes. I do. They used to have little marks to line the paper up when you hang it. Oh? Yeah. Down the Can't remember that. Exactly. Down the edge Mm? the name of the manufacturer and possibly the say the model like the that particular paper's erm category name. But it had at about oh eighteen inch intervals, something like that? Little marks, sometimes an arrow sticking out. When you, when you put the next roll on you married up the arrow. Oh. Yeah. Mm. I remember cutting out when you used to have to cut all down your rolls of wallpaper. That's right. And do you remember when you had to cut all your borders out ? Yeah but don't you remember when they had that erm erm semi-perforated edge on it? And you knocked it on the edge of a table? Oh yes. Mm. Things have changed a bit. Yes. I don't quite know why they put that edge on in the first place. No. Unless it was, in those days, they didn't have the shrink wrap stuff did they? I think they used to overlap them one edge didn't they? Oh didn't th I was just thinking yeah. That's right. Oh it was standard to, yeah a standard practice job that, yeah. To overlap. Well you could always see the join. Oh yes of course. And the joins they've put on this wallpaper here they stand out Oh god . about a mile don't they? Well this particular paper, you you've got to be very care I don't like it. otherwise it crushes very easily. Mm. I don't like it. Mm. No. It's not my favourite by any means. We'll have to go and be having a look at at erm What? choose a paper for the room where we're doing now. Yes, there's a bit more plastering to be done yet. Not a lot though is there? Not a lot, no. I want to skim that corner, ceiling and the top of the wall. Erm And strip all the little and there's also there's a usual crack between the plasterboard and ceiling over the door and a little crack running down to the door. Is there? yeah. It's worth doing. Oh yes. Mm. And do it properly. Well Mm. Oh yes. And there's all the burning off and mm. And also I want to, while the carpet's up, investigate the run of the cable. So it's And have you any idea yet? About? Where the cable runs? Yes. Yeah, yeah. I think it's a spur coming off that runs into the er But I don't think it's a proper imme immersion heater circuit. You're joking? Well it doesn't have to be. Should it be? Oh. No it doesn't have to be. No no no. No. No. There's a a mark on the wall, you know where the switch is where you switch the pump on and off? Er yes. Well there's a mark on the wall. Something's been on the wall that was round. Yes. That would be erm the junction box. Mm. Why would they need another junction box there then? Cos there's one down at the bottom. To feed I s would suspect the immersion heater. Mm. Oh. Mm. Well what have they taken it off for then? Oh they wouldn't need, they wouldn't mm. Because y you, when you have your cable up to the junction, hang on up to your junction box Yeah. and from the junction box to the actual immersion heater itself Yeah. you have erm a heatproof cable called er systaflex I think it's called. Mm. Yeah. Er it's sort of a white, braided stuff that goes over. Mm. Heat resistant. Mm. So you'd need a junction box to erm connect the Well you know how they've you know where the pipe comes out of the cupboard? Hang on. There are a lot of pipes. No, the the pipe that I w I think supposedly leads to the radiator. Erm And it comes down under that little do you mean the one with the pump in? Yes. Oh that pipe. Yeah, yeah. By the wall, and it Oh. comes into that little erm ooh the sort of semi skirting board thing. Erm That stands away from the wall. offhand I can't say yes I do but Well it it's flat and then it comes down. You've got your skirting board Flat and then it comes down . It houses pipes. And it's Oh you you mean in the room? Yeah. Yes but I mean which pipe you mean, no. Well I don't know the pipe. I haven't seen the pipe have I? Oh it's in the oh sorry, go on. Carry on. No. This thing but er er the pipe comes from the cupboard. You can see it If there's a pipe or pipes cupboard yeah. I dunno but it you can see it coming through Mm. and it into that housing Yeah. Yeah. and then it comes right round to the radiator Yes I know, yeah. and goes right to that wall doesn't it? Yes. Yeah yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well why would it need if that, if it does that, when it gets to the radiator Oh it's not just for the radiator. Oh. I see It's the hot water to the tap in the kitchen. Oh I see. That's right, yeah. As well. Well what I was looking at this afternoon was your radiator comes through the floor. And yet all these pipes are here. Why isn't why wouldn't they take erm your radiator pipe the water, the pipe that feeds the radiator? Mm. Mm. Why wouldn't it come through that little housing? Instead of coming under the floor? Well again that's not original is it? The central heating system is er a later addition to the house isn't it? Oh. And those pipes were where the circs where the, the where the pipe run to the hot water tap in the kitchen. And to the bathroom. Oh. Mm. And quite probably the cold water supply to the bathroom too. Mm. Mm. And I think not the kitchen, that's on the rising main. Cos your stop tap is underneath the er Mm. sink top there. . But that one there is er fed, I'm pretty sure from the, yes it is. Yeah because the pipe goes up there. Mm. Oh yes of course. It goes right through to the bathroom doesn't it? That's it. And, if you think about it, there's a header tank in the loft. Yes. the cold water from somewhere. Mm. So it'll come from there across the ceiling Mm. across the ceiling up through the erm cupboard Yeah. into the l into the loft and . Mm. Mm. So you'll have the hot water pipe to supply the hot tap Mm. taps. And the cold water feeds by the er header tank in the loft. Mm. Well why wouldn't they take them underneath the floor? They could of, couldn't they, up there? Yes they certainly could. But at the time of building I think it was just continued practice from the victorian days to run it round on the top. Mm. Pretty sure. There has been, or appears to have been, a hole in the wall that's been plastered up rather badly but above that housing, that cover Mm? on the bathroom wall Mm. the wall separating the bathroom from the spare room Yeah. from the back bedroom in the bottom there's been a hole about the size of a pipe Was there? about three quarter pipe, yeah. Mm. Or fifteen mil twenty two millimetres yeah. Mm. I think I'll wash up and then have a cup of tea. What a good What time is it? time we had a wash up and a cup of tea I think. It's two and a half minutes to six o'clock. Or eighteen hundred. Oh the news. Let's see if the queen's dead. Pardon? Where's the new oh is that the news? Yeah. See if the queen's dead. Oh yes I noticed yeah. Well The only thing I only I don't know all the names of some of the people. Oh I wouldn't know any of them. But apart from that it's not a very difficult one. Mm. Let's have a look what's what. Is it based on the contents of of rather the erm Yes. It is. people on the box? It is. Oh crikey,I w definitely wouldn't know . Pardon? I definitely wouldn't know, no. Oh you would. up my nose it's erm quite erm I know. I went in there and I thought something was burning. Don't let me forget there's a cake in the oven will you? Not a bun but a cake. Right. You know what I'm like. I forgot it completely last week. Well what time do I remind you? Remind me at half past half past if I don't remember myself. Half past six? Yes. Yeah. Well it's quarter past six now. I know what it is now but Mm. I'm quite capable of forgetting in about five minutes. Mm. Well it wouldn't take me that long . Oh dear. Quite a bit more today anyway. Oh well yes. Mm. It's a hard slog isn't it ? I wish we'd got a bit further really but it's hard work. There's a lot of work. But we, we're getting there slowly. Mm. Let's have a look and see what's what. you see the doors are different, quarter inch difference in size. You wouldn't, I wouldn't have thought that. the same. No it didn't surprise me cos they usually no, they put the casing up, the door casing. Yeah. And then the chippie erm cuts the door to fit. it, you know? Very seldom you get it a perfect fit when you Mm. just it in. Fortunately it is the right way round. Mm. I don't think they, I would have thought that everything was more or less Well it is more or less. spot on No. No. size. When the houses were built at the same time and They possibly are today. Erm a lot of stuff's factory er Is that the sort of job that er Ken would be doing? On the building site, yeah. Oh. Mm. Yeah. Mm. Did you hear Josie was saying about er What? ? He's busy on this building project now but he doesn't know after. Oh she said a few days ago about some bungalow or something he's he's helping to build. He, he's a brickie isn't he? Yes that's right. Yes. Mm. Mm. Whereabouts? I haven't the faintest idea. Oh. Not the faintest. So it they, he'll be worried if oh mind you er anything in the building trade is a bit iffy isn't it? I can't see Ken yeah. getting a a job really, can you? Certainly not now. I'd have thought he's going to find it extremely difficult down here to find a job. Because I don't Of any sort. Never mind just in the building trade. Yes, I don't think he'll rush down . But he's so used to being . Well he's got all his mates . And he er I don't think he's got the confidence to . No. I don't. No. And then again he's getting older, I mean Mm. it's more difficult as you get older . See I did see there's that place erm erm oh it's going, it's Tearscross direction. Erm Erm they advert ? Well, they advertise in the paper every week. Advertise carpenters and joiners. But The thing is er where he is now Mhm. er when, mind you he's been in his job for a while now. Mm. Mm. But I mean when the jobs have finished he's always Well he managed to get on to another one pretty well straight away. See hang on no no no. The job's been never finished never will be finished with the corporation on it. It's amazing . Specially there . No but I mean, I don't mean wh I don't mean where he's been working for the corporation, I mean before when he's had these various jobs and they've finished and he's had, you know, the job's finished and they've had to go somewhere. Oh the shopfitting and mm mm mm. Mhm. Mhm. He's always been quick at picking another job up Oh to be fair to him, yes he has. He's been very quick at that. But as you get older that's not so easy is it? No, precisely. No. No. And he might not find it so easy here. Cos there's so many more people in pretty much the same trade. I would have thought so. Yes. I would have thought so. Mm. And it just isn't commonsense to commute No. to Manchester is it? Oh he'd never do it. It's ridiculous. Mind you, the only thing that I was thinking of, do you know when he was commuting Ah. that firm he was working for Yeah, can't to Sw was it Swansea? It probably was Swansea area. I think it was, yeah. Yes it was Swansea area. Go on. He seemed to like that, although he did get fed up with it . Ah yes but it was quite a different run you see Nina. That was motorway nearly all the way. Mm. And he could do it in less time. Mm. It was a straight run. There was no driving involved. You just point the car in the right direction press the pedal and you're there . It was still a long way. It's a longish way but erm for Ken it's not quite the same as erm the A roads and B roads and No. oh no. No. Cos he doesn't really like driving. No he doesn't. No. And it is a bit of a tedious journey. He'd never do Mike's job. Well he'd never do Mike's job anyway but Oh no. you know, the driving side . No but Mike enjoys it doesn't he? Mm. He covers a a rattling big area. He's got a big area to cover, Mike if you think about it. He seems to enjoy the job doesn't he? Seems to yes. Mark you he wouldn't crack on if he didn't. No he wouldn't say very much about . Well no I don't suppose so. No. No. But goi reading between the lines, you can usually have a a rough working idea Oh yes he obviously likes it better than when he was at er at that erm what do they call themselves? Oh I can't remember now. Erm oh well you see Mm. Oh a hi fi firm. he doesn't l like being tied to the bench does he? Oh no. He'd sooner be out. And I think I think he does his job well anyway. I'm quite sure he does his job extremely well, yeah. Mm. Mm. So all is well. Mm. It, it's a sha I feel sorry for young married couples these days. Mm. It's very hard going isn't it? Oh yes. Mm. Oh yes. Well Go on. Mm. I was gonna say something, I've forgotten. As is my wont. Well you usually mm. Mm but I can't see, I don't think Carolyn would have much difficulty. Er no I d particularly in view of her experience Cos yeah I don't think she would. Exactly. Quite as much anyway. No I don't. She might have to wait a wee while but I think she'll get on, yes. I think so. And possibilities for Carolyn Yes. came now. I don't we may be completely wrong. But as far as this exchange business is concerned. Mm. You'd never get erm you'd never get an exchange. No. I don't think we operate that scheme now. Larry have you got any books out from the library? No. That needs taking back? No, no. I was just looking at that, going right off the subject but er that Uri Geller? I bet that's interesting? It's er moderately interesting so far, yes. Yes. I wouldn't mind reading that. No I thought you might. That's one, another reason I got it out from the library. Erm it rabbits on quite a lot up to now. Yeah. About all the er astonishment, amazement the English press and public and the Swedish press and the public and the American press and public, you know? Push push push all the time. Mm. Erm Yes well of course you can only assume that what he says is correct. He's quoting various er authorities on the subject . I've only just started the damn thing really. How did he er y how did he first find out that he w he had this Well he that's why he wanders on a bit. Erm keeps giving little bits erm It was when he was a child apparently, he claims to have been aware of it, you know? Mm. A ch as a child? Mm. How young? How old? Oh that I don't know. Oh it doesn't give any particular age? Mm. He admits to wanting to be a showman, you know? Mm. A film star and god knows what. Oh well . Loads of children do that don't they? Mm. It doesn't mean to say it always comes off. Mm. Mm. Well let's see what I've got to do here. I've nearly finished this one but . Mm. Let's have a look. What's number one? You certainly shoot through the first few ch chapters of that anyway. Yes. Oh yes. Lot of repetition. In effect. What's an ongoing topic? Politics . In five. Is this based on TV then or? Well you pretty much, yeah. Oh well . Not erm well a lot of, lot of it is. It's probably their own quiz game then is it? Or panel game or Yeah er no I don't think that is. Mm? Oh. I can't think of any TV quizzes or panel games or Well that er that's not. You don't think it is? I don't think so, no. And you haven't got any of the letters? No. I'm afraid not . Oh. eleven across. Oh, this Arthur played Alf Garnett's pal. Oh, I wouldn't know. Oh English, I do know. Oddly enough. English? Oh that's it. Arthur English. That's it. Because I've got some in, oh Oh yes, yes. oh aren't you clever. Well not really, no. It's just that I happened to . I know. Erm I've got G and I in so that's Arthur English, of course, of course . Mm. I could not think. Good grief. and all that jazz. Mm. Mm. Oh we might have a a flash of . Oh. Oh. Who was the author of The Darling Buds of May? I don't suppose you know that. H E Bates. Was it? I think so. Bates. That's right I've got A T in. Oh I've nearly finished it. Steer away from bloody television and we might still have a fighting chance. Yeah . Mm. Mm. I don't suppose Al you know Albert Square's yuppie No. No. I haven't the faintest idea. I think that's something to do with Eastenders. Albert Square. Oh I'm certain it is. Yeah. Mm. Mm. Erm five down, what's that? Oh that's that ongoing topic. It's, oh no I've got two in. Something something E something E. Still think something, probably it's about something but probably tied in with the er erm nineteen across. Art programme . It's A something E something something Hang on. The first letter is A? Yes. Oh it's not the South Bank Show then. Erm A something E something? A something E something something. Mm. Depends how desperate the need is. Have you finished with this ? Yes thank you. They'll think we're always blooming eating . puddings. Oh dear. Well let's face it Mm. The broom. The broom, yes Erm different coloured broom. Oh for the back? Yes. Yes. I think erm we'll have to have a trip to St Ishmal's for that. Probably. Where else could we go? Erm well we do Other than that er rather expensive Well what I, I do like about St Ishmal's is the way it's laid out and It's laid out but the plants look healthy and they're kept in healthy conditions. They do. Yeah. Mhm. To me that Dingle place I wasn't very struck on that. I wasn't at all struck, no. No I wasn't. There were all weeds growing among the plants they're selling. Messy. Yes, messy. And it wasn't just the messiness, I don't mind that, but No. They weren't looked after. cos you it was difficult to find the things that you w you want oh I don't know, it was just Mm. it didn't erm didn't appeal to me somehow. No. But erm I remember when we got the original broom that we've got in the garden now, the golden one Yeah. Where did we get that? We got that at St Ishmal's. Did we? Mm. And erm they're sort of labelled, you know what, it gives you this picture of what you're buying as well. Oh yes. With most of the plants it does, yeah. Yes cos I want to get the particular one I want Mm. Mm. to go next to the Well obviously, yeah. you know, for the effect and erm For the for the contrast, yeah. Mm. I want to know the height Mhm. it's going to grow Mm. Mm. I think it's er I think it'll look nice there. It should look quite attractive. Yeah. It might be a bit of a job erm keeping them separate. growing into one another. But I don't think so. No? Oh no. Oh. Well, it doesn't really matter. Oh that's alright then. Good. Because I mean they don't sort of grow out, they grow up don't they? Yeah, but they do grow out a bit too. I mean the one at twenty seven Yes I know but not enough it wouldn't really matter if that, a little bit of it . No no. No no no no. cos that's the idea. Mm I suppose so, yeah. Mm. Did you see, you know this last gardener's Gardener's World? I haven't really looked at it, no. I glanced very briefly at it but Where it had er a broom garden? No I didn't see that. Oh let's have a look and see if I can find it. And I thought Some er excellent photography there you know. I know. Mark you, most of There's a primula There's a what? I think that's what they call a cowslip now . I've no idea. Saturday or Sunday? Saturday. You know where I've put you know down the bottom end of the garden,th that little bit of digging? To shape the ga er where the grass is? Right up in front of the sweetpeas? Erm the left or the right? Right down at the bottom there by the apple tree. Do you mean where the daffs are going? Mm. Yes. Oh yes. yes but on the side. Oh there you mean, not at the bottom, at the side. Where I've just dug. Mm. Where I've just dug there. And I said I'd put sweetpeas? Mm. Mm. Yeah? I was wondering whether to put some fuchsia. Because I've got some fu Haven't we got some towards this end? Perhaps Yes we've got got s I've got loads in, in flowerpot, in these big containers. And I Oh I see. I'm just stumped where to put them. Mm. I don't want to keep them in containers. If it's an evergreen, no it's not is it? Fuchsia? Mm. No. No. Mm. No, they die down Mm. Mm. Most of the ones that we brought seem to have erm Survived. Survived. Which I'm glad. Mm. Mm. Because we've got some nice ones. And then those that Karen brought us, they were nice. Yes. Yeah. Got some lovely ones. Mhm. Well I thought they'd be protected by the fence. Yeah. Mm. Wouldn't have much room for sweetpeas though would I? I don't know though, they'd grow up behind wouldn't they? Yes. Course they will, yeah. Mm. The only problem being cutting the hedge. Pardon? The only problem being cutting the hedge. Cutting the hedge? Mm. Oh yeah. But But how often do you have to cut that sort of hedge then? Not a lot. Not like a privet . Mm. if I can find erm I can't I remember Carolyn bringing that, you know that little er the anemone? No? And we didn't know what it was. Er all I can remember a lot of plants coming. Yes well But I can't remember I remember that in a little pot down there and you know they were labelled? She put the labels on. Oh yes she did, a label mhm. Well I'm sure I remember the anemone blander Mm. I don't know. Oh I see And I think I planted it Yeah. and it nothing s , it didn't seem to survive. Mhm. And I was reading about the conditions. Maybe with erm erm putting fertiliser on them you know Mhm. Mm. erm Mhm. I think it and it's come up Ah! Well, good o. It looks quite pretty now but it could be quite . Well . Yeah, true. Mm. I've come across a bit of architrave by the way. Quite apart from Yeah. . Erm . So I can use that as an experimental piece. Where? , there's stuff come to think of it it's the one in the hall. The doorway that's bricked up. Yeah. Oh of course. I keep forgetting there was a doorway there when we arrived . Yeah. That's right. the architrave from there. Yeah. Erm it's exactly the same varnish stain as this. Is it? So I can muck about on that piece before I tackle it in here, so mm. stripping goes. Oh I see what you mean. To to er see Without staining, without what? Mm that's true. To see if w what colour we can get that we like instead of this? Yeah. Yeah. That's right. Mm. First of all what's the best stripping medium. Whether it's gonna be gentle heat, whether it's gonna be varnish stripper? Paint stripper? What the hell. And then see the go on. Er w do you have to strip it? If we want to change the colour. Unless we're going to use a varnish stain as such. But it's very, and it looks a bit crummy, that stuff I always think. Ooh . Ooh well I don't know, Mm. See look at It's a big area. Pardon? It's a big area to strip. Why, wouldn't it Well it's only what erm the architrave the arch there this side, that side and that one there. Well I mean if you had it sort of darker, wouldn't it stain darker slightly? Well as I say you can't stain varnished wood Nina. Oh. You can put a varnish stain on. Varnish stain but erm In in this particular light now I can see where they've put on thick blodges that run down. I know, it's terrible isn't it? Mm. I wouldn't think that was a professional job. Oh what was? I don't think . But well originally what would they have done with it? When it was built? Oh no I don't think, I don't think it's from square one. It probably would be varnished from square one but that's not the original varnish. No. Shouldn't think, no. I doubt it very much indeed. shocking colour isn't it? Yes it is. And do you know the old bog door, it's the same colour as next door's. Or was I should say. Was it? The same yucky blue, yeah . Was it? Mm. So if you look at the next time you're in the loo Mm. where the handle was, look where the blue shows. And that's that was the original colour. That w do you think that's what they did originally? Yeah. The original colour, yeah. Mm when it was built? Mm. Mm. Mm. Mm. blue didn't they? It might of course have been a more acceptable blue when it was put on because it changes Do you remember that er flat that Lil and Nev er went into? Oh goodness. Before they Oh down here ? No. Where? They've not been in a flat Oh Prestwych Yeah. Yes. Well when, yes where they rented when they sold theirs Yeah, yeah. and were waiting for their other house up here to be finished. Paid a fortune for the damn . Yeah. Well that was all blue, do you remember ? No. I only remember one Because when I when I went to see Lil Yeah. er spent the day with her Yeah yeah. and I hadn't seen the flat before, and the first thing she said to me wherever you look in here it's blue. And it was too. Was it really? Yes. Er it Well how do you mean? The paintwork was blue? Everything, yes. Paint, decorations, everything. What ? Well n not every not every exactly everything but Mm. as you got, went into the flat you got an overall picture of blue. Mm. Mm. Mm. Everywhere you looked was blue. I find blue a depressing colour even though I like blue. I mean I Well it's isn't it? Blue for depression and red for excitement and Yes but What's a calming colour? For a decoration in a home I don't like blue. No, no. And yet young Nicky's gone for blue. Blue Well it's a change from black that . Well yes they've got the black furniture you know They've got the furniture of course, yes. That's true. Mm. Mm. Some of it looks nice, but I wouldn't like Well it'll die the death eventually won't it? I mean the stripped pine really horrible. Mm. Isn't it? Yes, well I think I think it's overdone. Course it's overdone. I like a bit but It's blooming cheap half of it. It is cheap. Er no it isn't cheap . cheap. God no. I wouldn't say that. Cheaper than It's a bit glaring to me. I find it so, it's not as mellow as I like. No, it's not. . It's usually crummy wood. Badly assembled. Well it depends how much you're going to pay for your furniture doesn't it really? Well I mean the one that er that er thing, what is it? They paid a lot for that didn't they? It's it's rubbish, that thing. Is it? It's rubbish. Absolute rubbish. It really is cos Mm. I'm not struck on they moved it out when we went on one occasion cos was the carpet wet or something? I don't know. They moved it out for something reason so I had occasion to look at it more closely. Oh. I thought, I was looking at it before, I thought mm. Anyway it drew my attention to it and I thought god god. Mm it might be fashionable but phoo Incidentally I wasn't far out with th the age of our friend across the road was I? No. No. Twenty four. I thought he was about that. Mm. Bit like Eric's place in a way . Oh never! Wonder how he is. Mm well no. Not in that se pardon? I wonder how he is Eric? I don't know I wonder. and whether he's still going. Oh probably, yeah. Probably . Floating with his beer every afternoon, yeah. He's a funny old stick wasn't he? Yeah. Wonder whether he got anywhere with the ? Seemed to make a beeline for his place didn't they? Mm. Most probably he got waffling on in the Royal Oak and that. Mm. Gave the impression I think. Mm. I can't see our friend er what was his name? The chap that bought our house? Oh god The probation officer anyway . . Mm. Erm I can't see him him getting very chummy with Eric can you? No. No. Nor Eric getting chummy with No. Well he'd try, initially. He did try. I know. Oh yeah. Mm. He's a soft touch for everybody else. Mm. Mm. He always meant very well though, Eric, in a lot of ways. He couldn't help being a simple soul could he? Simple soul.. No. No. Mm. He used to swear blind he saw his mother standing at the end of the bed. He Eric did? Yeah. He'd seen his mother sat at the end of the bed ages after she was dead, you know. Oh Oh yeah. Yeah. He was quite genuine. He wasn't mm. Mm I think that was when his had auntie died, he'd seen his mother. When his auntie died? Mm. Oh that's going back a bit isn't it? I know yes. Oh yes. He didn't see his auntie as well then? No I don't think so. I don't know I'm sure but he never mentioned it anyway. I don't remem erm his I don't remember his mother. Only I've got a very hazy, but I could be confusing it her with one of the other relatives I think she was ill when Was she short, dumpy podgy sort of thing and? Well no, I don't know. I don't remember . Oh I, neither do I. What did? Auntie Oh auntie was only small, similar to to Eric. Well about the same size as nan really. Yeah. So it could have been his auntie, his mother I don't know. I wonder if John and John and er mm Liz. Liz have moved yet. Well we thought they had last time we went. Do you remember? Oh yes, I vaguely remember that but I, whether they'd actually moved or not I don't know. Mm. I wonder what had happened to the stool. Which stool ? Th do you remember er who was going to, oh I don't it was the store that Robin made. Oh the tall stool Robin made? Yes yes. Yes. And Rob and John and Liz were hanging on to it somebody was going to pick it up weren't they? actually. I've forgotten . I don't know! It was a state of chaos then though wasn't it? Well I wouldn't like to move, we are not moving again . Oh god no. No way. Never again. Well if we do we'll wait another sixty years anyway. Mm. Oh what an upheaval. Mm. I don't know how people can move from one place to another. Do the place up then Well move over to another place. Oh heck, no thank you. it depends on a lot of factors really doesn't it? Mm Or a lot of factors come into it. Age group finances desire to move for a variety of reasons, erm permanently regarded house in the first place, you know? Mm I mean like in Jill's case, Jill and Steve Yes, that always struck me as a bit odd, yes. I it's a big upheaval every few years isn't it Yeah. Mm. Mm. to have to do it with your job? Yeah. Mm. And it's worse when you've got children to cope with as well. That and the obvious school problem too with the kids, yeah. Mm. I don't think it's good for them moving them about from school to school do you? No it can't be. Well I don't know about that, I mean with some schools it'd be a good idea to get them away from it. Well And some areas, in fact. I mean really desirable to move away from there wasn't it? Er well that's true. Mm. And privately it would be no bad thing to move away from where they are now. I mean, well they're gonna have problems wherever they go, but the on erm a different estate different type of estate, they wouldn't have as many problems would they? Mm I don't know so much. I don't think so. Not as many. I've found out how to get rid of the cat scratching. No another idea? What is it this time? No, it's not my idea. Apparently you can get No, no? pellets of er lion dung Oh I, yes . Don't you remember erm Oh dear . somebody on Gardener's Question Time answering that? I didn't know you could get it in pellets. Well either did I but Yes Although although inoffensive to people, cats dislike the scent and avoid For obvious reasons, yeah . Mm. We'll try that. Yes. Materials cause no ill effects to plants soil or your own pets. Mm. How much er ? It doesn't say. lions obviously, well. Oh hang on, yes it does. The lion dung pellets come in a handy sealed plastic bag inside a box with instruction. One kilogram contents are enough for about thr thirty metres square Good god! square metres,I know,and will last for roughly three months in average weather . Oh gee whiz. Be a bit potent. Mm. Price per bag is eight pound oh it's eight eight pound ninety nine Mm. Mm. Open container with care. And stand back . No it would, it wouldn't necessarily pong. No it says it it it's inoffensive to people. Mm mm mm. You can take it two ways, it'll probably get up and bite you . I'm still looking for me broom . Was it broom? Yes I think Oh yes, yes. I'm sure it was in here somewhere. The name of that particular species is in there though. What do you want? Er The colour or something? Can't remember what it said underneath it. Well er won't it be in the other one, catalogue. Yeah, I think it was in this one. I seem to remember looking at it in the other one. I forgot we sent for erm Oh yes, your free giftie. free gifts. Mm. Oh yes. It'll arrive no doubt. ago since we sent it. Oh it's not long is it? Not for that sort of er thing, no. They're certainly not quick. And they probably haven't if they get five hundred certain number and five hundred thousand you know? Mm. It's not worth looking on the box for the news because it's, they'll be nothing new. I can't find it. Mm. Mm no doubt you will eventually. These rolled houses are they these? Rolled, what they call a rolled house. What on earth is a rolled house? It's a kind of a, a type of mini greenhouse. greenhouses and frames er the prices! Oh no no. It takes your breath away. A tiny little thing of the size of a tomato house. Yeah. Fifty pounds. Well it's a bit like these victorian wheelbarrows and things aren't they? Yeah solid . How much were they? About seventy five quid or something stupid like that. They're not as good as the . Lot of weight in themself. Bound to go rotten eventually. Mm. Well they're trendy so I suppose it's the usual afternoon run to Leo's is it? Pardon? Usual afternoon run to Leo's? Oh yes. Yeah I suppose we want Mm. Am I not supposed to be going somewhere tomorrow to to enquire about something or ? Oh I know what I meant to ask you. When we go erm Ah. no er we haven't said anything about it before I only Oh. thought about it when I was reading the property thing it might be er while I'm in Leo's Oh yes. The estate agents? Mm. . Yes I think their office is near the erm near Iceland. Think that's it. And there's two houses here oh i it might be an idea, although I wouldn't mind going in and having a look. Yeah. You can have a look. But usually by the time I come out of Leo's I'm dying to get home . Yeah. W well let's get off er early, soon as we can. We always do though. Don't we? Mm. What time is it? Oh I know what I need. I want to go in Boots, anyway. Oh yeah. So I don't so where is ? Well I'm not t is the address there? . I think it's on High Street. Mm I can't see it. They don't sh give the address? Oh good god. Oh here we are. Er Oh. yes,. Ah. Yes by the number I er it is, I'm pretty sure where I thought. Mm. Going in to, or rather going up High Street in to High Street from the erm Freemans Way, you know? It's this side of Iceland on the right. Mm. Oh it's near Iceland? Yeah. Yeah. Oh er it didn't register. Well there's these two here. There could be some more. And it'll soften the blow . There's no there's no price on there I presume? No that's just the thing. Ooh! It's a stupid habit, not putting the price on. People must lose sales for that. Well it's possibly at the request of the vendor you know. I know they do. But what I'm saying is people Oh yeah I know. a lot of people, if they're, alright if you want it, you're interested, and you're interested you'll find out. Fair do's Course you will. but not everybody will bother like that. Oh no no no. You do tend to skip by if there's another one that you think oh well Course you will. Mm. I I I'm Oh I won't bother with that cos that'll be too expensive, or whatever, yeah. Oh quite, mm. Er yeah I think Mm. Mm. Or possibly I don't see the point because you can pick up the phone and find out if you want anyway so Yeah. Yeah. it's just silly. Where are those two ? Are those Johnston Oh, St Peter's Road one is it? Er it doesn't say. I don't think so. Er the St Peter's Road one only had two bedrooms didn't it? Yeah. Both these have got three . Are you sure that isn't I think they were agents as well for one round the corner. In Cromwell Mm. Well oh, this one l this there's one that does look like the one on St Peter's Road. Mm. But it's er three bedrooms. Well I'm sure they the one you s Can I have a look? There look. Okay. Erm Yeah. I'm sure the oth the St Peter's Road one only had two bedrooms. No, that's not the er unless it's another handling agent cos that's not the photograph Well they won't change the bedrooms will they? One's got three and one's got two. Can't be the same. No of , no. Oh I don't know. I don't know. . Unless it's a misprint. Well misconstruction about the use of a room more likely but where's me other windows? Can't see with these damn things. Most attractive detached bungalow blah blah blah blah blah Come to think of it I don't think it is that one. I don't think that's the one on St Peters. You don't? No. It's a similar Mm. shape and Did it have two chimneys? Yeah. It did. Well we'll get a few and then It's, it's not in this week then, that one? No it doesn't seem to be. At least I, I didn't see it. Mm. I might of missed it. Yeah that's possible. Ouch! This other one in Johnston will be fairly pricey I think. Erm I have the This white one. feeling it could be. Mm. Eighteen foot lounge job. Well it's, isn't it lounge stroke dining room? Fitted kitchen, dining room. Oh. Mm. Mm. You know that little row of cottages by The Windsor? Erm Near The Windsor. I can't visualize them to be honest, no. No. Oh. Oh,one or two of them were they? I can remember one quite clearly that absolutely dog rotten window frames. That was at this end one that er Josie was talking about today. Cottage? Well not cottage erm er terrace. Oh. Mm vaguely. Mm. Is that the one that's going up er but the auction . Thirteen was it, she said? Or sixteen? I'm sure it was thirteen actually, yeah. It may have been, it may have been sixteen. Mm. She said it was nice. Mm. It can't be much for sixteen. No you wouldn't think so . Coo not today. No. It may be of course it's on, on auction because they can't get a mortgage on it. It may be too bad for a mortgage. It could be. Mm. You know when we were looking originally? Down here you mean? No before we came to be looking down here. Oh. Ah. When we were er North Wales? looking in North Wales,and round there. Yes. Oh yeah. Yes I do. Yes. Er why people were buying cos the house boom was on then wasn't it? You couldn't Oh buying unseen you mean? shocking isn't it? Buying without seeing? Oh! I know. You can't fathom people would be so crazy. I couldn't. You just have to be a fool. That people could buy a property unseen, well you know, it's ridiculous. And the price I wonder how many w It's a pig in a poke. I mean just when you think about it they they were actually following estate agents when they went out to value a property. I know. Gee, god. But now I mean what a difference. Mm. I find it a bit hard to believe what said about being the boom's coming ba not boom but picking up. I don't I'm not so sure Larry. I don't know. Well, look Carolyn's had three to look Well three potential. mm very . Mm. Actually one's, there's only one turn I think that's rotten. If you make an appointment you should jolly well go and see it. Or at least pick the phone up and say erm you know Sorry, no. Even if. Yeah exactly. At least let them know you're not going. Yes. For one reason or another, yeah. It's not fair. Mm. No no. Erm Never forget that girl in that bungalow we saw. Was it the one ? No,. With the Yellow radiator? With the yellow radiator. That's right. Bright yellow She and dog muck all down . Ooh! But I couldn't help but feel sorry for her. She was quite a young girl wasn't she? She was a nice girl. Oh yes. Yes. She was nice. Mm. She knew damn well we weren't interested didn't she? Oh yeah. She must have done. She was sort of half apologetic Aah. Mm. Wonder whether she sold it? I suppose she did. I presume she must have done eventually. Mm. Er and a husband was a teacher er a lecturer Oh we saw some wasn't he? I know we saw some tripe didn't we? And that one we saw . You walked in the front door and you quickly walked out the back door . Oh strewth. Yeah. Well exactly, yeah. No thank you. Mm. Still. I suppose we might have had one or two lucky escapes there didn't we? We did! By not buying up there. Well not really. We just wouldn't have even entertained it. Well I certainly wouldn't, but I know somebody else was getting a bit fed up but Ooh. Well, how many did we look at? Quite a few. Mm. We certainly travelled around didn't we? Yes we did. Mm. Yeah when I think that's mm. We clocked some miles up. And actually some of the areas on the outskirts of Prestatyn were quite nice. Before you got actually into the town. No, but erm Not bad. Not bad, no. not nothing to compare with this. Not compared with down here I don't think. No. It still had a north of England feel about it you know. Didn't it? Mm. Mm. Yeah. It was a big improvement on Manchester, fair enough, but er mm. I can accept, of course When you come to think of some of the houses though in in Wiggenshaw where Carolyn is now Yeah, yeah. there's some really nice houses . Oh the properties themselves. oh yes, indeed, yeah. Mm. Mm. Mm. The comical thing is one of the comical things is there's quite a lot of money go into some of those corporation houses you know? Oh I know. Well look at Carolyn and Kenneth. Since I know. they've bought theirs they've made it beautiful. It really is nice inside. Yeah what about the income going into the house? Yes but I mean when families grow up and children start going to work and as Carolyn was saying Mm. theirs, while the family were at home Mm. Mm. was a bit cramped. Yeah. But when they now they're all Mm. they don't want a big place. No they don't need a big place. No. Ooh with all the space heating, carpeting, decorating. You wonder where they furnishing they put everything don't you at first when you go up there all the family there. Well. Storing this and that and oh no. Mm. Mm. Mm. It's jumping about I know but I wish we could hear from Robin. It'd be nice wouldn't it? Yeah photograph or something Er well it'll soon be Liz's birthday. Erm I'll tell you, talking about birthdays Mm. I must get a card, it's Ken's birthday soon. Twenty fifth Hang on. Which Ken? Big Ken? Big Ken. Oh well li Not little Ken. His bir Oh yes yes birthday's near christmas isn't it? Er when is his birthday? Twenty fifth of . Is it really? Oh. And how old will he be? Erm forty s Poor old codger. Forty six . Is he as old as that? Good grief. Yeah he'll be moaning. He does not like growing old. Do we er any of us ? Well I don't think anybody does. I mean Oh well good. You can't do much about it can you? Remember Percy across the road? Not wanting anybody to know he's seventy four, It's usually women that don't want you to know. Well exactly. I was quite surprised. For a farmer too, ex farmer I should say, yeah. Mm. By god he's got some stuff I Ooh. Erm I tell you what tickled me when, years and years ago when Alec was alive, remember old Alec? Oh I can't forget Alec . Go on. I went into the stores and Yeah. and there he was boasting about his age and Oh yeah,Mm. Did he? but he was getting on. Mm. I mean er he looked every bit, he looked a lot older . Yeah he looked older than he w he looked older than he was, yeah . Oh dear, I thought Never guess how old I am. I know. I'm getting older I won't go boasting about it cos I'll look every inch of what I am . You, you can just about grow old gracefully I don't know you, no no. and that's it. Mm. graceful if you tried to really, yeah. Alec. Mm. bloody handlebars on his bike. It's handlebars up his sleeves isn't it? He said I don't know. put his legs . How did he get them like that? I do not know. Mm. It just goes to show what booze can do doesn't it? Oh well . He was a sitting target for Mike though wasn't he? Oh I think he enjoyed it. Oh strewth! Mm. I wonder er I do wonder whether erm G er go on. Mi Mrs 's still there. It's a shame. She probably is. Mm. Erm Well she'd not had much of a life had she? Not in her later years, certainly not, no. Well she wasn't very well when she started ? Well David was only small. Was he? Mm. Oh I thought he was at school, you know, bigger boy at school. No erm sh when she first started erm Mm. Dave was only little. A toddler I think. Oh! Really? Mm. Oh well, mm. Well . He was pre-school. Mm. Mm. Maybe not just a toddler but he was pre-school. Mm. And it's funny isn't it how erm a child is motivated mentally. I mean he he said he would be a doctor when Oh yes. Yeah. to make his mummy better. Yeah. Years ago when she first started. Mm. And see he finished up being just that. Well th that was incidental. Er things got that he could make his mother,the other way round. Well he said when I grow up mummy I'll Mm. I'm going to be a doctor and I'll make you better. Mm. Aah I thought that was lovely. Y yes. Yeah. Mm. Mm. damn paint and stuff, cor strewth. Ooh. I'm sick of burning paint. I don't know about you . Oh I'm doing it outside tomorrow definitely. Mm. Oh weather permitting. It's one of my pet hates, burning paint. Burning paint, plaster and cement. Ooh! And Artex. And I don't know in which order . There's a lot there's a lot more paint left to burn. Good grief. Mm. It's a worthwhile job though, isn't it? Oh well y we need to do it and there's one job Mm. Unfortunately it's I'm not looking forward to is doing down the stairs. See that back door, had it been applied well, the paint I would have just rubbed it down. Mm. If it had been like our door, the existing door it would have stood rubbing down flatting down and er then . Well you can use our existing door then . No, bloody likely, oh no. too much to repair it. Yes, it's a thought that. I wonder. Wonder what? Well where it's been hacked about Yeah. I'll see if those handles will fill that hacking about. They might. Well what about the edge? Well that I would have to fill of course, obviously but I know but that's not too ba oh no no no Well what's the point? Pardon? Well what's the point? It's a bad door isn't it? Mm the rest of the door isn't too bad is it? Okay. Hm. Mm. I'll have a look tomorrow. No the leading edge I can fill in alright. To save the What with? Variety of things. Finish off with timber. I could erm and save the lock er well the yeah the lock. Mm. Mm. It might. I doubt it. I dunno. I'm just thinking of all the hacking about. It seems rather extensive to me. It may have gone too far, they may have bashed away too much. I think they have. We'll see. And what will you do with the other side? Which other side? The the, where it fits in. Hang on. No how do you mean the other side? The the door jamb itself. Oh well I've got to do something with that anyway. Haven't I? Will you have to replace it? N no, no no. Cut the bad stuff out and er put the new timber in and shape it to fit the existing door casing, architrave and Well won't it show? It won't scream anyway. I mean short of replacing the whole door casing which I'm not going to do yeah. Mm. Oh what a mess everywhere isn't it? Yes . Hm. I'd forgotten Josie saying it was er you know it was a wardrobe. Made the wardrobe, ha! To be honest I thought it was this other bloke who . No according to Josie it was . Cos erm I think she or was it Yvonne said to me perhaps I'll find me hillbilly lend me er yeah Or perhaps . Something like that anyway . All the rough, rough sods in oh strewth. Ooh. Terrible. I mean when you get splinters out of it Yes. that's going a bit too far isn't it? Yes. Yes. Oh yes. Mm. Mm. And that's when you're being careful . I mean fancy putting your clothes next to a thing like that. Anything delicate. Mm. Incidentally what er arrangements er if any, have Mike and have Mike and Dawn made for this er summer? How do you mean? Well wasn't Dawn saying about they're going to go to France this year or something? Oh Well this is When was that? When they were here I think. Oh of course, yes. Obviously Mm. Mike has to inform the company obviously if he's taking the car out of the country, you know. Yes. Mm. Mm. Mm. Oh you know, do you remember Yvonne saying that that plant down there was a money plant and I didn't know what it was called? A money tree. Aha! I recognize a bit, yes. Go on. . Why? The first I'm just reading about Mm? Well the first houseplant I ever bought was a money tree. An attractive succulent. Mm. Well that's it. Well a succulent with the leaves being Well I know it's a succulent. dark green glossy I could have told you that in the first place . Well what did you s But what I'm sa I didn't know the name of it. Mm. Apparently he said he's now where is it? Who is it? Ooh, I've just read it. Mhm. Read on. Ah! Go on. It I've lo it says here I've looked with envy at at other people's money trees in full flower ! So how big do they Full flower? grow and when do they flower? I didn't know they flowered. No. I wonder what sort of flowers they have? Although my plants have although my plants have never been inclined to follow suit. Mm. Still I'm a patient sort he says. Mm. pest attack, over watering and they will surely survive Mm. er to relegate a sickly specimen to the is an act of carelessness and sacrilege . Mm. Well I didn't know that erm Look it up in Titmarsh's book. Mm. About the flowering. I don't remember that. You've looked it up in the Titmarsh have you? No because it isn't in the Titmarsh. Really? Oh. No. Mm. Well I couldn't find it. Fount of all knowledge isn't flowing, mm. Well he can't cover every flipping plant can he? He does very well Mm. Mm. I think he's very good really. Mm. Unless it's under it's ge generic name is it? Hello our friend, ooh ooh. Mm. That's squeaking and creaking isn't it? When you come in. Good afternoon. Just a spot of information with somebody. Ooh out of breath from this hill. Erm bungalow in St Peters Road. Ah, thank you. Can you give me the particulars? Yes certainly. Yeah. yeah. It's the one right bang on the main road? Yeah that's the one. Yeah. And anything else up to about forty five-ish. From about thirty five to forty five . Thirty five a snatch back or the repossession type thing I suppose. one of my daughters is er What er sort of area? Oh. Preferably Johnston er but it really doesn't matter. It really doesn't matter to be honest with you. How many bedrooms? In saying that hang on, no, hang on. Do you want it, do you want a bungalow? It isn't, well yes. Not necessarily, no no a house would do. Er Milford There's Johnston Arford Not way out, you know? Mm. That's quite nice. How many bedrooms? Preferably three but two get by with. There's a new development in Johnston, that one. Oh that one ye oh yes, I know. We know that er yes when we were looking. Yeah. Mm. Thank you yes. Okay. is fifty six thousand you see. I thought it was going to be, yes yes. Do you want the details anyway? Yes please. Yes just in case. One never knows. You never know. There we go. One never knows. Thank you. I thought it would be Erm Well that's the asking price. How, how many beds did you say? Preferably three but not essentially. Two er one, if it's a two bedroom they're into the caravan outside. For the spare bedroom , usual thing. Mm. cottage which quite nice. Lower Thornton That's actually gone, been reduced now to Where the hell's that? Lower Thornton As you er approach you know the Horse and Jockey Milford? Yes we do, yes. You turn right. Yeah. Oh which way are we approaching it? And . From this end or? From this end, yeah. Yeah, go on. You turn right You turn right and you go down it and you'll see a sign for Lower Thornton. Oh thank you, yes. It's down there. That been reduced to forty four thousand I see, yes, yeah. been reduced. Do you want me to write that on ? Please yes. Thank you. Excuse me please. Sorry. I'm so sorry. Thank you. knock and shove me but I always get in the way . There you go. Thank you. Right okay. Erm Well my wife and I have only been here, living here ooh just over twelve months now so we don't really know the You don't know the area, no. Not frightfully well, no. Oh, where are you from? From Manchester. Been Oh whereabouts? Chorlton or Chorlton cum Hardy if you want the full glory. Don't tell me you were too? Whereabou I used to I used to l live in Stockport Stockport. Oh or what have you yes. Yeah. Did you indeed? Mm. Road or ? Yeah . I know. move down in October. Did you really? Good gracious. And of the two places Mm? of the two places, where would you sooner be? Here. . Should have come here what I think you need to I think you need to really of been somewhere else before Yes, I accept that. to realize, you appreciate . Yes. Y you're absolutely right there. You really are. Yes. Cos er you feel as you ju people moan about this sort of area they just don't realize how . Mm. How many think of the credit column. Precisely. Yeah. Well our milkman, to be honest with you, it got to the stage where he wouldn't collect milk at night to collect the cash at night. No. In . Yeah Chorlton can be Chorlton's on the border of erm oh god Stretford Yeah there's Stretford isn't there? No but what Mollyrange Stretford, Mollyrange er Molly Mollyrange. That's the bit isn't it? I, I can remember Mollyrange sixty years ago and it was a very very different place, between you and me it really was. Yeah. Mosside wasn't too bad sixty years ago but now, good gracious. Well you wouldn't dare leave your car parked. Oh no! Oh the wife and I went around Mosside the day after the riots there and, do you remember the riots? Perhaps you don't. No. In the coloured area. They were smashing shops and burning cars and what Oh yeah. You could feel the atmosphere when you were sat in the car. Mm. Well we Disturbing. It was that bad that we went when I bought my house in Manchester Mm. Mm. we went er round Mollyrange to get to you know the Oh yeah . the erm that good place that sells secondhand er or damaged erm Range Warehouse Range Warehouse, that's it yeah. Mm. Very good. Mm. Very good And er value for money, yeah. thing is that you know we were at w we, actually we got lost and were asking directions. People people were running away from you. Yeah. Yes. Yes. Yes. I know. I mean it was so funny because it was Yes. a sunny day Yeah, and yet mm. and and yet you know it was a sunny day. Nick had his sunglasses on, he must have looked a bit touched. we just stopped and bloke Yeah. one woman, sorry, that literally ran away from us. They completely ran away. It was unbelievable. Yes I can believe it, yes. Yeah yeah. Well the the really? Yeah. There's a friend of my wife and I she's, what age is she now? Well at the time she was in her very late thirties, schoolteacher. And she bought a house in Mollyrange. I didn't know about it, I didn't even know she was looking for one then. Er we saw her one day she said oh I've got the keys by the way. I said oh, keys for where? You know. Oh I've got a house in . I said oh, whereabouts? One side of the road there were three brothels and on the other side there were four . She was a schoolteacher. She'd no idea, very innocent, very er church, you know? Oh yes, father was a parson and Mm. she lasted there about six months, that was all. Mm mm. Yeah. Cos it's er it's weird really, it's like a good ar good area and bad areas. Oh it's very patchy. But it's interesting, Mollyrange, if you draw a line down the centre Pakistanis on that side and Jamaicans on that side. Seriously. Seriously. So what made you want to move down here? Well we've wanted to move for twenty five years possibly. But you know how it is, it's family ties and kids growing up and then they grow up and have families of their own, then you get tied to the ch grandchildren or what have you. I've been pushing for a long time but erm down here? Well I have a brother-in-law living in Stainton He's lived there, he retired there some what, ooh fifteen years ago, more than that. He'd been pressing me to come down here for a long time. When I used to bring my wife Mm. drive down drop her off at in-laws. Cup of tea, turn the car round and go back. I couldn't stand the bloke at the time. An ex Manchester lion board of directors, very very full of himself. Mm. He'd been used to having chars and minions running round him. Took him a while now he's a very nice chap. Took him a while to calm down. But now yeah it took him a while to calm down but he's a very nice fellow now, very nice chap. And erm we searched over north Wales first of all but phew no thank you. Extension really of Manchester in a way, north Wales. Mm. Mm. Then we er got a letter from ah my daughters, one of my daughters one of my many daughters married to a coastguard in Milford. Mm. Erm she spotted a house in the paper, sent it up. I said oh come on, we might as well go down and have a look. Mm. And we went down, liked it and that was it. Mm. Been down here ever since. And regretted that we hadn't come before. Yeah. Oh well Oh seriously. at least you're here now. Yes. Yes. Right, okay. Right. Thank you very much my love. If you fancy viewing any of them just give us a call. Oh indeed yes, that's right. Well I'll concern it with my daughter first of all naturally. Mhm. Cos I d I hate wasting, I remember when we were selling ours, the time wasters, the people that had no intention of buying. There's actually one there, Magic Cottage that's quite nice. A magic cottage? Did I hear right? M A G I C, magic? Magic. Mm, it's called. Good gracious. Erm there you go. Again it's fifty four so, but you never know. Well you never know, yes exactly, yeah. Oh you've got a pretty picture for it? Oh it's just come in, obviously yeah. Mm. Obviously just come in. That reminds me. When we bought our house, thank you. Thank you very much indeed. Erm we had the original full blow up Mm. from the estate agents. And erm we sent it to well one of my other sons in Australia there and he was thrilled to bits. oh you did very well with your photography. I thought Yes. Just too late I see. Never mind I'll come Oh well never mind you'll come back later I'll come back later. Thank you very much for your time love. Bubye. Bubye. Bubye. Forgive me smiling but does everybody do that, fall over the step there? Same as me. There's not much of me but . Erm what if anything have you, erm these are enquiries I'm making on behalf of my daughter. Anything from about thirty five to forty five. Mm. Two bedroomed, no? Round Arford, Johnston and Milford Yeah we've got quite a few actually. Have you? Mm . Good good good good good. Thank you. Erm I never realized it's first time price. Shall I just give you out a load and Give me out a load, yes. And we can browse and Yeah there's quite a lot actually in that price range of homes. Are there really? Oh Yeah . Mm. Mm. Oh look at that, thank you. Very well oiled runners on those er Yes. drawers haven't you? Bit too much They get a bit carried away actually. Yeah . That middle drawer over there keeps coming out all the time . Mind of it's own job, yeah? Yeah we've got a poltergeist Yeah yeah. Funny I'd just been saying that, just been reading a book allegedly written by erm Uri Geller, you know the Oh yeah? and he claims to be er able to move things and do the poltergeist stunt, you know? Yeah? Mm. Claims to be. Yeah I've seen him on the telly Oh yes, yes. They reckon if you concentrate with him you can do the same Indeed yes. He claims that's been done. Exactly. That's right, yes. Some people can, yeah. Mm. Well, yeah. In his last chapter in the book he claims he did a a beam me up scottie business and Yeah exactly, yes. That I find a little bit hard to believe. One minute he was shall we say in Arford, next minute woof, he'd shot to Johnston through somebody's window? Oh! Yeah I know. Yes exactly. Mm. That is pushing it. Think think think, she says. Think. Yes. Is Haycastle too far? Er I I don't know Johnston frightfu er Johnston! I don't know er only be a matter of Mind you that's the other direction to Johnston.? Well possibly, I don't know love. She might. Erm Erm Well she might well do. You've given a goodly little pile here . Well there's quite a few. Yeah. Mm. A niece of mine living in tells me that it's picking up slightly, the property market. Would you agree with that or I find that hard to believe. No. Mm. No I don't think so, no. Not really, no. It's No, no. People are holding off now cutting back Mm. And, exactly, yes, yes. Quite, yes. Yes, yeah. There is some property moving but Mm. nothing exciting really. Do you want to ditch me and grab the phone before it Erm I'll give you those Alright, thank you. Yes. Marvellous. Good gracious. Yes a goodly pile. Quite a wide range. Erm Erm erm Would she be willing to ? Oh indeed yes. Yes. Yes. You're going to an awful lot of trouble for me love. That's alright. No problem at all. There you go. I think that's about it that price range. Fine. Thank you very much indeed. Basically all of them are you know modernized. That one needs Yeah. a new kitchen. It needs tidying up but you can see that the price And the stuff ripping out the front. Oh I hate those things, personally, but still, there we are. Matter of, exactly yes. I agree with you. There we are . Thank you. Er yes, I s suspect they must have paid a lot of money to have that done too. Yeah. Mm. Well, yeah. in that case, yeah. ? Er at this stage I don't think so to be honest with you because can give us a ring . Well exactly, yes, she can give you a ring erm or I could give you a ring for that matter erm . expensive business for her, phoning from Manchester,. Yes yeah erm no there's little point just now, go on then she's thought of something else. Oh. Ooh. There's enough to keep me going for the week there isn't there? Yeah . Forgive me for saying so but the lighting in here is appalling, you don't you get headaches? Sorry? Don't you get headaches from Yeah, now and again. Yeah I thought you would. Terrible light that. Mm. Doesn't help with the dark ceiling, that soaks it up doesn't it? Yeah. Mm. Well we're gonna be expanding into next door erm What when the property market picks up? Well well we're gonna do it anyway cos we just haven't got enough room Oh I see. Oh yeah. Mm. market really. Really? Is it really? Good gracious me. Mm. Mm. Erm I could No sorry. Go on, yeah. give you a form if she wants to take it and fill it in, right? Fine, thank you. Yeah, I can post it to her. Give her a tinkle and er yeah. Well that'll save . Mhm. Yes. If she wants to go on the mailing list, just cut that bit off and fill that in and post it on to us. Fine thank you. Well yes exac thank you, because my wife writes to her practically every week Yeah. and she can bung this in with the er Yeah. I mean a letter doesn't Well yes. Quite, yes, yes. Thank you my love. Fine. Yes indeed. Thank you. It's cheaper than phoning isn't it? Aha. Yes it is. Mm. Right. You can get back to you're er whatever you're getting back to. I dunno. Pretending to be busy. Yeah. Or are you busy? Well I'm drawing lines. Drawing, oh well! Marking out boundaries. Ma oh! It's getting more and more important as it goes. I'll try not to fall down the step when I go. Thank you my love. Goodbye. Bubye. Loads a money. It isn't Mm? it's the bill, it's the milk bill . Aha! I want to change another ten pound because with not getting two fivers Yes. er so I thought oh I'll change that when I go in to er the greengrocers. Oh are we, have you have you been to Boots? By the way. Oh lord, no. I don't think that's really important. Are you sure? No. I think Erm thirty six erm thirty six this expires at half past four. That can't be right, this. Expires at sixteen thirty six? God it's erm what time is it Well it's only fifteen thirty five now so Oh it is two hours you get for the er that's right, it's not an hour and a half, it's two hours you get isn't it? Mm. It could be right. Yes. It is right in fact. So we're okay? Yeah we're okay, if you want to. I, we can Er ooh Hang on, hang on, hang on. I can run the car round the other side of the car park. Yeah. So it's less to walk . And walk from there. Well that's a good idea. Why not? Er I thought we were going to Well somewhere else High Street. Hang on. Pardon? Where will I go in there? Well erm Well you want to go to this other car park for Boots don't you? Mm. Yeah. Yeah. And we've got how long? Three thirty Oh you're alright. So we've got another hour? Yeah, it's two hours. There we are. Are you staying here? Oh yes I haven't got the strength . It's not my idea of a Then are we going to the pa wallpaper shop? Yes. High Street, yes. Oh okay. Okay well there's no need to lock up . No. No no. No need to lock up. Out of interest I couldn't help but notice you book erm Yes? a P reg. Erm do you find most of the old cars, more old cars than newer cars? What don't pay? Yeah. Yeah. Just out of interest. Purely. Well er not really I think. Oh. We find er E like the newer cars like er the big cars don't pay. You know what I mean? Oh that figures. That figures. You know what I mean? Like er Yes exactly. like a B M W er or a Yes exactly. jag. It's . That's right, yeah. Exactly. Yeah. But er No it must have been just coincidence. I no noticed the What we what we do really don't want, what we really hit hard is the, like this one here now who haven't got a ticket on. Oh I see, yes. At all? Yeah it's Mm. Well th there's two of us going round Mm. but er we've got different ideas on how, like like I myself Mm? if they've paid it's fair enough. Now if it And they're a little bit over, yeah. now like, like now like this one hasn't got a ticket you know it's At all. Mm. Mm. That's right. But er the way I look at it if he's which is not too long, what I do, what I normally we give a half an hour er or Oh that's very what I do, I give an hour. Do you really? Oh I turn away and you know if he's paid Er yes, yes. But what I, what I don't like this one pays Yeah. and you've got a brand new car who hasn't paid. Exactly. Yes. Yes. You know? I i it's you know? Yeah, they can well afford to and er If you can afford a new car you, you Exactly, exactly. can afford you can afford twenty P or ten P or whatever it is. Yes, yes. Yes. Exactly yes. You know? Oh the person who'll come back now, I'll cancel it. Oh I see. Will you really? You know? Oh yes. Oh that's very good. As long as long as they're tidy and they're not er bad mannered about it. Mm. Mm. Mm. Yes quite. You know? Yes, yes. Er and of course that's fair enough Mm. but er if they come back and say look I was gone to get change. Fair enough as long as they come back and they put a ticket on. Mm. Mm. But er when I'm gone it's too late. Oh indeed, yes, yes of course. But if er if they come back and they're tidy enough Mm. you know . It must be quite a boring job though? It is. Yeah yeah. Yes. Yes. Well not really we've got one, and we've got a big multi- storey car park. Oh I know the multi-storey, yes. You know? That that takes ages to walk round and of course Yes. and then we go to the top. Yes, yes. High Street bank. Oh do you really? Do you really? We go there. We go to . Oh I see. Oh well yeah. We go to the station. We've got loads to go round, you know? Ah. Oh no I assumed it was just here and . Oh no no no no no no. We go round I see, yeah. I mean I'm, I'm here now and I'll go away and then the other bloke may come round later again. You know?just go round I see, yeah. Mm. Mm. in circles. In circles. Yes. But erm Yeah. then we go back to the office then for an hour and people of course will come in then and say why are you booking me but Oh yeah yeah. But er if they they come back to their car and they're tidy enough. Mm. Mm. As long as they don't start That's reasonable. Yeah, oh well swearing and Yes. Yes, quite, yeah. Well we're told to just, just walk away. It's not worth arguing. No. You know? Oh no no no. It's er if they come back and they say I'm sorry I'd gone Mm. gone to get change like that fellow there now, he was worried that I'd book him over there. Oh! Because You know, and I I, and of course He came back and he and he bought a ticket. You know, so Mm. th that's fair enough. You know? Mm. Mm. Mm. But er Mm. this one now has got no ticket on, so Ah yeah. If he'd of come back while I'm here, well And give a reasonable explanation or be pleasant about it and Well y y Well that's right, yes. . You know? You know? Yeah. Right. Mm. But you you you go up to some of them and there's ooh this and that. I think you'd get more than a t parking ticket looking at it for M O T wise if he get pulled. Oh yeah ah well it's cost them ten pound now see? Yes, exactly. Yes. Ha! twenty P. Yes . Yes exactly. Right. Can I borrow your writing device? Lovely, thank you. Twenty one twenty three please. Right, thank you. and it needs holding up. Mm. Mm. Yeah. And it was all in a bunch, so I've had to sort of unhook it. Oh I see what you mean, yes. Yeah yeah. Mm. Mm. Mm. I think though this afternoon . Big success, yeah. I'll empty the pockets and then Be decisions decisions. Decisions. Oh.. Have you done with your plate ? Mm. Right. We're eating again . Er yes. Well it's the only time we get chance to talk at the moment isn't it? I know yes . Mm. And then with Lil and Nev away. Well that's true, yes. Yeah. You could get twenty four hours continuously with Neville couldn't you? Oh well I'll say . God strewth. lovely isn't he? yourself. Have you seen this?it's nice. What , what is this? No. . Ooh. Bring your thing with you. Bring me thing with me. Easily carry that. Perhaps it could be next door, could it? No I don't think so. You've not left anything upstairs have you? No no. It smells like burning . Mattresses or blankets, the carpets Well it's not here. We've not got anything burning. No. I've not had a blow lamp going this morning at all. It's probably come in with the door being open. It may even be the school you know? Oh of course. Burning some rubbish in the er It could be, yes. in the incinerator thing they've got there. Cor it really pongs doesn't it? Mm it does. Mm. Many different types of smoke and pong. Wood smoke, when you're camping is Oh it's nice isn't it? it's, exactly. Yeah yeah. Remember when we used to take the pressure cooker when we went out ? Oh yes. Yeah, well it was worthwhile wasn't it? Mm. Mm. Neck of lamb. Mm. Mm. And everybody else was eating sandwiches. That's really org yeah. Jolly good. Nice. Mm. I never use that now do I? No. But I wouldn't get rid of it, because just in case. It's erm We went camping again? Well that's not very likely! I don't think so No thank you. No but you never know. I do. I'm not gonna go . I don't mean camping I mean Oh I see. Yes. You know? It might come in handy. No I know what you mean. Yeah. I made jam in it. Yes I have a hazy recollection of that. It was quite nice really. So that was Mm. Mm. Yes. Yeah. it cut the cooking time down. Mm. Mm. It was quite easy. Mm. Seems an awful long time ago in some ways, you know, camping. Well it is! Yet other ways it doesn't Nina. Mm. The erm difference in cer some things can seem a long time ago and some are relatively recent. Mm. Yes I wonder what It doesn't really seem all that long since our lads in shorts, you know? It doesn't. . For god's sake Larry . And there they are thirty nine . No no seriously Best look forward, not back. Oh I know. Yeah. It's a pity that this house Oh. is erm Which ones did you heave, by the way? Oh, only the ones I knew she wouldn't have. Er economy seven. Oh my god, yeah. Erm terrace Well hang on, no. You didn't put a definite no on economy seven did you? Well they were terraces. Oh well fair enough. No I'm talking about economy seven in case you heave Well I think that any more Yes she did. Mm. She wants gas cooking. She prefers er far prefers gas cooking I know, but You, I think you'll find she won't even contemplate cooking by electricity. Mm. Mm. Mm. I doubt that very much. What's this one? This looks, they look like Barratts. It's an end terrace. This one. Mhm. It looks very small. It's an end terrace. She wouldn't rule out an end terrace but Ah is that the one the Barratt type place? Well I yes. Yeah well Well that looks like a Barratt type as well doesn't it? Yes. Exactly, yes. It's the same estate isn't it? It is yeah. The same address, same area. Yes, it is. Yeah. But there's quite a difference in price if you notice. Forty two for this. And thirty something for that. Thirty seven I think it was, something like that. Could be wrong. Yes it is but I think this is the one erm this is This is this is, this is Erm wait a minute. Mhm. I don't like either, to be honest with you, but there we are. Oh I don't dislike them but it's not one that Well if you weigh that other one up the end one. . This, which? This one? Yeah. There wouldn't be room for the caravan to start with. I thought there would. No I don't think so, no. Yeah. I think you'd find there would. No. I don't think there would be. That's well it looks like it to me. Mm. Mm. Full stop. That'd be it. Just let's read what it says. Mm. No room for a garage. No parking a car is there? From what I can see of it. Mm. style entrance door which opens Oh yeah. to the entrance hall. It's erm important to remember by the way What? Well some estates, not many of course, but some estates have got a no go area for caravans parked don't they? Mm. I don't think we're likely to meet it here to be honest with you but yes you do get it. Ah well there's a caravan parked round the corner. Well I'm just saying I just said that we're not likely to get it here. No. But erm it would be a damn sight safer down here wouldn't it? It wouldn't get vandalized, broken into scratched, bashed or whatever. Grounds, here we are. Tell me, the Lawn, just a mo. Mm. Go on. Property stands within established principally lawned garden Yeah I read it. Yeah. shrubs, trees Mm. Mm. Privacy from the roadway which is what she would like. Depends what you mean by privacy of course, but go on. Privacy or privacy as they seem to say these days, don't they, sometimes? Well I say privacy. I don't know . carry on saying it whether it's right or wrong. Same with controversy and controversy. Controversy. I know, I still . It's a real controversy though. Yeah I Controversy. God, you've got me at it. You see? Yeah. How easily you can change. Good gracious me. Did you notice this morning on the box, the er weather girl? No I didn't. She uses controversy and er Did she? Our friend what's his name, Mike is it? Yes Yes. He did the accidental I'm sure, controversy. Oh. Mm. And she It's it's easier to say for some reason or other and yet Well it is for us because we've always been saying it. But I don't see any reason why it should be easier. Mm. Controversy, controversy. It's just accent on the Mm. Mm. Fed up with plaster up me nose and I'm fed up with this stage altogether. Oh strewth, yeah. I'll be glad when we get it cleaned and we can start the actual There's quite a lot of it to do yet. decorating bit. Well we're it's it's the er first principles, prepare your surfaces isn't it? Which we're doing. Oh I know that. No. But that's the mm. Well we've finished the burning off in there. Yeah so that's one pong gone. Very largely gone . It still lingers on a bit though. Oh yes. There's not an awful lot more filling to do, but there is a bit of course. Erm not plaster there's no more plastering is there? I sincerely hope not. No there's no more plastering. No. No. Just filling now. Imperfections you know? Joints and , stuff like that. And that , it's a pity about that but I'm leaving the damn thing Oh, yes Fancy putting boss white? You know what they say? Never trouble trouble. Oh I know. If it works leave it alone, but I'll say . erm on balance it's best left on and to just Well it is really Yes. if we can get away with it. Oh yes. I'd far sooner take it off and do a proper job but well It er well it's easier isn't it, really? But on the Well other hand, you might have problems with it leaking if you take it off anyway, so Well that's a p yes exactly, yes. Cos No, if you've got to and I've got to scrape out all that horrible boss white. Cos it goes rock hard that stuff, over the years you know? Mm. Boss white. I wonder whether it was leaking in, when they put it in in the first place? Do you mean that's why they used boss white? Possibly. Yeah. Mm. Well let's not erm ask for trouble because there's more than enough to do without having . Oh quite, yes. Mm. Have you noticed that by and large, not all the time of course but I should say that eighty percent of the time birds face that way? No I've never noticed which cos I'm Mm. Cos see that pigeon is now. Oh yeah. In the tree, yeah. Mm. By far the majority of the time. It looks like a picture doesn't it sometimes? With those trees. Oh god, yes. Yes. I've never seen so many perch in one tree. Mm. Facing basically west, aren't they? Mm. That's true. Mm. Look at that pigeon pardon? sat there. Yes. Yeah. The windows are filthy outside . Mm. You don't often get one pigeon though do you? There's usually at least two of them. Well you usually have two together don't you? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Ooh that door! Yes that was getting on my wick that door, yeah. Shut up door! Mm. I was bunged up before I started this. bunged up now. I wonder who I wonder who chopped and vandalized all those daffodils round the corner?? Well and the fact that it was just their garden, and as far as I can make out it was simply that garden, it would suggest that she's fallen out with some kids or something like that or somebody and yeah. Mm. I mean why pick on one garden and systematically Well they probably thing, yes but cabbages? Fancy taking cabbages! I don't think they'd been actually taken from what I can gather. Well what did they do to them? Oh just cut them? They slashed them about, yes. Cut them all. Mm. Peculiar thing to do. Oh according to Josie, I really don't know about all the cabbages, it might consist of one or two. Funny business, yeah. Oh it's a shame though isn't it? Mm. Mm. All the time you spend waiting for the blooming things to grow . That's Yvonne's mother isn't it? Yeah. That's right. Didn't Yvonne say she can be an awkward old devil? Oh I don't know. Mm. So I sh yes. She's probably fallen out with some kid or other. You can't be sure of that. Oh no no no no no. If there'd been a trail of destruction down the road, then fair enough, but I couldn't er go and vandalize something, I mean a thing like flowers. Mm. Mm. They're so nice that Well we think so. Obviously there's others that don't think so, but not everybody thinks so. Well a lot of people like, I mean most people like flowers don't they? Yes. Whether you grow them or not's a difference but most people Yeah, yeah. Oh true, true. They're not an ug ugly thing. like them. Mm. And I couldn't go and vandalize something that was nice. No. No. There's some peculiar minds some people have don't they? Oh yeah it's very small beer really isn't it? Compared to some of the dodges they get up to. It is really. Mm. Have you decided whereabouts you're going to put that light at the front? Light? Er well no the, well at the front. Other than that, over the door area somewhere, I don't know exactly. I might stick it on a flying lead and wander around with it for a bit and see where it's best. Mm. But I've got a rough idea where it'll go anyway. Mm. of course is cable running to it providing it with power. I'll probably run it from the garage . Mm. About the easiest source. On the corner I think would be perhaps a good idea, do you think? Between the garage and the house. Do you mean the return? If you come from the front of the house going towards the garage, that little bit there? There's two feet or something . No. I thought you were going to put it facing the front. I am, yes. Well what do you mean then, the corner? On the co on the front of the house at the corner. Yes , you mean literally on the corner? The apex of two Yes. Well I'd have to make something to mount it on to go right on the corner but Well I know that. Well wherever you put it you're going to have to make something to mount it on. No. No. No. No. Why? It'll screw drive on to a flat surface. Brickwork. Yeah. Certainly it will. Yeah. Mm. How high up are you thinking of putting it? Above a vandal . How high . How high is the one we've got at the back? Well so you've got to get up a ladder to get at it. Er up a step ladder I mean, not a I think about, above the number. I'd thought roughly speaking in that area, yes but Er yes, well somewhere there. Ah well that would illuminate the er see if I put it fairly close to the actual corner at the front side, going down towards the garage. Close to that corner, still lighting on the front face but Mm. then a percentage of light will go round the corner. Well cos lights don't go round corners but What about on the garage above what about on the garage? No. No? No that would throw the front door into shadow wouldn't it? Mm. Mm. Well above the number then. Cos you're nearly, you know, more or less on the corner there anyway aren't you? Mm like I say that would be mm. Oh that way I can then get a decent cable run I think to the garage. For feed, you know? Mm. Mm. Well that's the easiest bit,. To the circuit, yeah. What's that then? That is . It will be helpful though, having a light there. Oh yes. Because at night, you get a percentage a a Yes you do. degree of light I should say from that street lighting, but not an awful lot. Not the same, no. Mm. No it is handy having the light. And for people coming in, going out for the step. Yeah. whatever, you know? Mm. It'll be a quite sufficient spread to, to cope with the er entrance to the garage I mean, you know? Mm. I still think two rows of erm pavers stones inbetween's the best bet for the front you know? To put there. There's only one problem You mean to the garage? Well the approach to the garage, yeah. The drive. Like Mike's got at, in their Er yes. Yes. Exactly. Yeah. The usual thing, yeah. Well you get a erm You get a what? You get a lot of weeds where the chippings are. No, not if you put sodium chlorate down. Nothing'll grow then. Good grief. The thing is if you If you what? erm I'm just thinking if, like when anybody comes to stay Yeah. Yeah. and you run the car, or somebody runs the car the other way Up the sides, yeah. Yeah? Well then you're going across, you're not staying st er you're not on the pavers are you? No, well that doesn't really matter. I mean the erm in fact, there's only one fairly tight path you can follow to get the car in. Into the side. If you think about it. Mm. It'll be worth putting a couple of pavers on there just to cope with the track of the pa er the wheels going in. Oh wouldn't that look a bit odd? Not necessarily, no. No. I don't mean put down like bloody tramlines . What, like I have down the garden there? A railway line in. No no. Actually it's quite attractive A walk you know walk that actually. Well it is but it I was looking at it again this morning. Yeah. I thought that. Ooh hark at her! Yes. Well I think some of the bricks could when you decide wha which you're going to use and which you, mm. Well they want stabilizing a bit yeah and er I'll get some of those bricks up and put the stone things down cos they look better. Mm. Mm. Mhm. As long as I can get, walk along and get to all the plants there. What do you think of that ? I'd definitely think about moving those other pavers at the bottom. There we were the steps are. Oh lifting them you mean?you mean? Oh god . Yeah . That would make th give it a better erm Yes. Yeah. I don't see any reason for that, to be quite honest, why they've done that? Well there was at the time obviously. Cos do you remember there was that erm monstrous creation I should say erection,erection for erm Oh I know that. Well there's still some of those stones at, underneath that . The foundation, exactly. I know, yeah. We've got to move those before we grow anything. I've put some of the bricks over one side, so that'll eliminate getting rid of one side of them. No, I'm not with you. Well where I've put me bricks they're Yes. on top of some of those stones that are underneath. I'm with you now. It's fairly deep eight inches down, the bricks? I know. I know I went quite a way down. You did. I mean honestly you'd have thought they were building a ruddy house there wouldn't you? I wonder what they did it for? That's only er I don't know. It's the same with the greenhouse It was a right monstrosity that thing wasn't it? They'd have had a nine inch thick erm solid concrete path in the centre. Who the hell I know! wants that? In the middle of the co Stupid. er of the greenhouse. Talking about stones, we'll have to have a trip up to the erm that er yard to see if . You know when we went to see about the flagstones? Oh there? Yes, yes. I've not seen any there's not been any more in erm workmen in . It's a good idea that, going up there. Well oh dear. I've kept my eyes open when we're going through Harford No sign? and there's no signs of work. Mark you it wasn't a brilliant day was it? So No it wasn't. Well we just have, must have just missed them. Yeah. Yeah, oh yeah, yeah. Cos those were definitely new ones, ready for placing in. Mm. A, a pile of stones. Oh yeah. So the old ones they'd have taken back to that yard place wouldn't they? Well no. No no, no. What do they do with them? No, straight to the tip. Well that's the place that That's not the tip. Where we went? Yeah. That's not the tip. Well which was the tip? You've never been to the tip. I don't think, no you've not. Oh. It's erm Tearscross way. You know the quarry? Well the quarry area anyway, the same road. Oh so I've never You can approach it two ways. From erm I thought it was there. They had a lot of stones there No no no. didn't they? That's just bits they've had on various trucks. Lorries and things. Oh. No, no. Oh I see. No no. The tip is where I went. The first time I went I followed the route recommended by Peter? Peter which on a map looks quicker but it isn't cos it's a winding Mm. country road single track in a lot of directions. Do they just heave the bricks? They just heave them? They don't Apparently yes. sell them off or anything? No. No they don't they just they stick them on to Mm. They'd serve our purpose very well there Mm. Mm. because there's such an awful lot to do. Mm. We could bring them right well the two that are down there could come Yeah. It would save you a lot of cementing wouldn't it? On indeed it would, yes. It would. Mm. Mm. I'll be giving that mixer a caning this year though. Pardon? I hope to give the mixer a caning this year. I hope you do too . Yeah . Mm. wondering what to do next. Mm. Oh yes, yes. When you come to think of it though it's s to me it makes sense to start at the top where we have done and work your way down doesn't it? In some ways it is sensible, yes because you're carrying muck down. Well of course you are. Yeah. I mean down, when we've done down here we've pu god been putting mats down and lord knows what to Mm. oh yeah. Mm. But the erm ceiling rose and preferably the light switch could do with replacing . Oh I know the ce oh the ceiling rose, they're horrible those old things, aren't they? Mm. Well the, the lighting switch isn't so clever either. No. And before I put too much back I want to have the floorboards up to clear And he said, no Charlotte! Look, you don't understand, you see I Well, explain it then? You're so stupid! Go on, Charlotte! No. You could go a bit nutty with it. Why are you two arguing for? you two. Whose Walkman's that? What's that there? You're, you're taping or something. you better stop that, Orgady. Why? Cos you're taping us! What's a matter. It's confidential anyway. No one 's gonna find out about it? What you hear? I said fuck! What you hear, Angela? Angela, what do you hear? What what do you year? I'll have to go and get some and put it up. Turn it up! I can't dance Why not? I can't move so it'll have to Turn it up! Turn it up, Charlotte! be Thursday. I can't get out Oh yeah, turn it up, Charlotte! I can't You heard her say turn it up. You know, you knew that we We're coming to eat in a minute! We? You and who? Me? I'm coming to eat in a minute. No,you've gotta talk to her cos, I don't know, she's Obina! Come back here! anyway, you've got to You've gotta put Is that why? Yeah. Is that more important? Yeah. Mummy! She's is using it. Now, look, she, there's something she has to talk to you about and I'm not gonna say she'll have to tell you afterwards, you know what I mean? Yeah. she'll have to tell you. When he let her off it had happened that simply and her world had never been the same again. She is gonna come back, she had to go and in the warmth of the morning sun her body. She thought I In about a few minutes. shouldn't I have called him? Barry didn't like to be pressured. He had learned I knew what happened. his mother one time soon after they had started dating. Yeah. She had called him at home to check on what time he was coming to pick What chapter's this? her up. Erm Er, er Four! What Have you read chapter four already? Can't you get, can't you get another one? I'm reading chapter four now! Have you read through that already? Have you read all the Yeah! other chapters while I was sleeping? Ah! Yes. Is it? I'm not bothering to read all this, this is rubbish! No, I'm not, it's not rubbish but, you know, I don't wanna read it because it's nothing to do with How, how did you lose it? what the song's about. It's just talking rubbish now. It's talking about how Helen kisses and she's got a good figure and she's got good teeth and Is it? How come? Some girl. until July? But I'm, but I'm sure it'd got up to a hundred and something pounds. Is it? Well I never knew that one time, never knew that. Er, er there're you go. Mm Alright then,alright then, bye bye! Have you come? Right. Oh yeah, don't tell She's gonna know Where's the five pound then? Well the three-fifty One-fifty. Huh? Get the three-pound-fifty off Mummy please cos I wanna give the money to Angela to put away for me. you're getting five pound not three-pound-fifty. Well get the five pound then, I don't care! I want to give it to Angela to put away now so I know my money's put a way. I know what's going on, you know what I mean. Cos I wanna go shopping She's like, she's like, she's whatever she's doing. I wanna come round, oh! I think I've got from chewing gum And the way he looks a lot so pissed. All I ever What? What then? wanted was to walk through your door. Were you, were you speaking? You're a wicked singer! Wicked! Root girl! Root girl! Root girl! Root girl! Root girl! No. She's a girl Angela. No she's not! Look at that! Look at that! give Mummy, cos you know Mummy, I've got Phone! What I've got pick it up! Hello! Hold on a minute. What is it? Is it a girl phoning? Mm mm Oh I'll just call him. Phone. It's your girlfriend. It's your girlfriend Mandy. I would take it over there because I'm blow drying. Shall I? I'll disturb you. Yeah. Yeah. Don't look at me like that!reading the book. take it over there. Oh. Yeah. no You like that song, don't you? Yeah, I do. Crap! Look! Look! Look at her What is? Yeah! Can't Mummy leave me alone! Down the High Road, yeah, before you get to the alleyway here, before you, do the first turning before the alleyway, go down there turn right, come down the road yeah What's he talking about? Is he telling them the way to get to our house, to get to our house? Okay, bye. What alleyway are you talking about? alleyway. That one up there? Why are you telling them to turn left? If you coming up the yeah it'll be coming from the top Who's that? Alan. He's coming here. Why's he coming here? Because he Ah! Ah! He says he bought another Amiga. He bought another Amiga? Which one? One-thousand-two-hundred? He's got two now and he's got why did he do that for? No but, why did, why does he want his modulator? Cos he wants to use the other five hundred But can't you use the modulator from the other computer? No, that is from the computer but he gave it to me because he uses the monitor. I'm confused. Look! He had the one from right? And he had a modulator? Yeah, but he didn't need the modulator so he gave it to because he's got a monitor, right? And he's now bought another And he bought a new computer one without a modulator Oh, he hasn't got a modulator? So he needs Why hasn't it got a modulator? Cos the boy didn't sell it with a modulator! So why is the boy selling the computer without a modulator? He wouldn't, they're thirty-five pounds. So I wonder, is he gonna sell the modulator separately? No! It hasn't got a modulator! He bought it from somewhere it didn't have a modulator shut up! they're always shouting at people I've never seen, there's only one captain in my class but I don't know how she acts out outside school. I'm hot, I'm hot, I'm hot when I do that. Where's my paper? What you open the window for it's cold in here! Hit and run accident with men on a, on a bike. You're such a silly cow I wanna read this. gotta give it to her we're, we're leaving school in three weeks, you know! Wow! I don't care if we're leaving And so she can read it quickly! school next month! Next week! We want out! I don't care! Involving a bike, involving a bike. last summer. Pardon? No, I have I have No she said, I'll get you!and he said I have the mobile phone number. Yeah. you know Er? what it was. Yeah. She's gonna phone you now when she's on her way around. what shall I get him? I'm thinking. Daddy's gonna make me eat some tomato and, and cucumber No. I'm so hungry even though I've eaten I feel like I ain't eaten nothing. I think I need to eat, eat a lot of food because my stomach feels I know your favourite song, Imogen. What? And if you call me I'll be there. Yeah I like that as well. I wanna I'll be there lick you up bam bam That, that song's rubbish! I wanna get freaky with you. freaky with you freaky with you like that. I wanna lick you up and ooh! I think they're sounded rubbish. They can't sing. Oh shut up! What do you think of Janet Jackson's song? It's alright. Heard better She's really pretty though. Looks like Serena. Serena looks like her you mean? Serena ain't pretty she's cute What? Well we can start all over There's nobody there Hey, yeah, hey, yeah It's going now oh Oh Oh Ooh babe So here we are lying here just you and me thinking about things that we used to do babe, turning lady! Yours and mine. Let's try it again to put our trust on the line, now. Let's start all over we can start all over, yeah. We can be more than best friends, now. It's going down, so anyone can say Anyone looking at me I'm following you as I don't know the words. Oh! Bloody hell, this is giving me a headache. It was anonymous. And again it Look at your face Oh my god! again it was an anonymous Do you know what happens next? Do you know what happens next? Next, the next person receives a picture of a boy on a bike because the accident was a hit and run accident and they hit someone on a bike. Your hair looks nice, who did it for you? That looks nice you know. Thanks. But I think it would look rubbish when you do all of it. You're making me laugh. No I like this side bit Oh look at the back you're not doing it properly! I like the side bit you're getting,oi! Who are you talking about, shut your mouth! Fucking getting on my nerves! You're a nutter! A nutter! What you talking about? Shut your mouth! Oh, every time I comb it I can't be fucking bothered any more. idiot girls. I just wanna find out who was writing them the letters and then I can finish. Look at the end of the book then! It won't be at the end it'll be in probably the middle somewhere. I only wanna find out Hello! No, no, no. Adele phoned and she said to phone you. Where's she been? Oh no What? No, I shouldn't Bobby socks No, but you hadn't done anything till then. I know. Are you going Going where? You, We're not haven't you decided going! Er? Are we going or going or what? I'm not going! Well then going? going with, by myself, Michelle's not going Michelle's Michelle's got no money. Michelle's phoned and said she's not going. Yeah but I thought you said you was going to pay for her? I didn't, I oh You'll have to all go this week anyway I don't want It's me that told him not to go! It's me that told him not to go cos I said, I didn't want to go this week and he didn't go. Yeah, okay erm I can't go this week cos I'm doing my work. Go on then! Go on then! Look, I'll find I'll find who wrote the letters. No man! I'll find it and then I'll give it to you. No I'm trying to find it myself, man! You're so nutty. Ray folded the article and put it back into the envelope. His own address stared up at him in the same black hand Are you ready to tell me now? No, because the tape recorder will hear me say it. not that Kenneth ever really believed that it was. Since Julie had thought so possible, it might've been a joke and she had managed to convince him unclear Did you go to tennis this week? in his heart, even then, he had been pretty sure that it was but it caught up with her I don't know what he thought finally oh Don't you why? that was writing. It was as though he had known all along, somewhere deep within himself, that this was going to happen. Hello? It was why he had come home Speaking, hold on one minute, erm go through and pick the phone up it don't sound right. Why? Yes they have. I got my my thing I'm gonna wind her up. No, because right has a tummy bug this week and she didn't phone or nothing like to say I don't wanna phone Margaret she don't wanna know so I don't know why you're bugging her for! she'll phone you. I'm not bugging her! She's not a friend. She's just her it's just that You never phone her, do you? I can't be bothered no don't lose, oh anyway. No but I wanna phone her and say are you still coming Claire? Think what she's gonna say, do you know what I mean? Let's do that. But Mar why? I wanna see what she's gonna do but anyway we're not going anyway. I don't wanna say I'm not going anyway, you silly bitch and I say bye and put the phone down. I'd probably do something like that. You're mad! No! I'll just do it! Because she could've phoned, alright, you're not still going or whatever she's trying to excuses she can't erm skate, well half the people can't skate, what you talking about, but oh I just don't understand. You're not being serious are you? Are you serious? What? Says she's gonna erm go over there with, gonna put her skates on She's drunk, I bet she's still drunk. Oh can I have No! I'm hungry. When I my Kit-Kat I'll give you half. I'm hungry. I'll give you half. I'm hungry as well I haven't eaten! I haven't eaten nothing! Yes you have! You said your Mum was calling you to the kitchen! You know erm that Fruitella, too juicy for my Mum, too juicy for my Dad, too juicy for my Gran, man! You're coming for a drink up there? Yeah! We'll come, hang on. She come with her boyfriend, right and she looked so funky she looked like a clown!.luminous babygro thing with black and pink and green on it. and erm I'm not going to All right then! the roller express no more. Am I supposed to be happy? Yeah. I can't go anyway, my knees Well you'll have to move the chair forward a bit. And erm And I am! what did you do? Take that to the toilet or something? Fruitella, too juicy for my Mum, too juicy for my Dad, too juicy for my Gran No, Michelle's not going either. Oh, that's good. She can go by herself She can go by herself if she wants to. Fancy more bacon? She look so stupid getting around by herself. I know. Especially when there's no one to hold onto when we just stop. still don't know how to do it. I skate all right. I'm quite good actually. I can go backwards now. Orgady, I'm wearing your skates next week, okay? Mm, okay, yeah I know. We don't know the times in that ice rink, do we Charlotte? No Oh! I just picked a scab on my head! Stop it! We'll never gonna get at that rate. Do you know how long Daddy has to work? He's been working since Daddy's. Where? somewhere and he can't find them. Oh! you know what I mean! Margaret! How come it's taking years to do your hair? Because it's taking my Just doing it for the week. That's why just can not make a living. Oh, you might as well just do hairdressing. hairdressing. She can't make a living with it. Okay, you can and say, hey, well dear I'll make a living and pay your rent. Yeah, I could make, I could do their hair and do their clothes and their face and I'd get about a hundred pounds, more than that. Ah, shut up! When did, erm David phone up? Shut the door please. I spoke to him on Wednesday, I phoned him. You phoned him? Phoned him. Yes, cos he phoned me Oh! Oh it makes you feel sick. All right, it, Urgh, you phoned him, urgh. No phoned him. Ah, you phoned him? Yeah. And he If my, if my Mum comes up, if my Mum comes I'll put the phone down, right? He said, yeah, all right then. Yeah. Charlotte said though you look like that even when you were singing. You go You told him! Oh no! Anyway you look like him, yeah you do I thought and I told Sasha right, he looked like Carlton and Sasha and he gotta go! Put the phone down. Oh! Oh you I know, I know Is he phoning you back? Can he phone you back? He could've but not from his house, he can't phone out of his house, it's just er Oh. What was I saying? I said, yeah, it's me, er my sister said that erm she feels a man in Olympus Sports, I said erm, on a poster playing basket ball and he looked like you. Are you sure it's not you? I said, are you sure it's not you? What are you doing there? He goes oh shut up, like that. And er, he yeah, yeah he told me he could play basket ball it must be right cos he's got a nice chest and he went what? Like that and he started laughing He said yeah, cos he said he'd got, I, I don't know what I said don't say shut up like that and I don't tell me to shut up like that! Do I say that? You always talk to people like that, what are you talking about? You're just high and mighty Don't talk to me like that! I don't, I don't appreciate the way you're talking to me! Okay don't you know when I'm joking? No, I don't when you're joking because you don't say shut up to me for you to say shut up. I wa you mean you don't know when I'm joking or being serious. I'm being serious now, anyway Who could that've been? I haven't got a clue. Your brother? Mm Oh well, say goodbye Yeah, goodbye get that? Play it. Yep. Who's that? Is it What? Beautiful! Not beautiful no Look! Your hair, your, when your, right, when you've finished your hair you'll look beautiful! Beautiful! Who's that? mum says. Did you do her hair? Yeah. Did it look nice? It look like a Beautiful! Beautiful. Good! So good! What? Where you wanna go tomorrow? I wanna go with What time though? Well any time that's convenient to her, innit? Yeah, three-thirty. Dinner's ready. Yeah, Mummy's already told me and I don't feel Yeah, but I'm just trying to finish this and then I'll clear it up. Fruitella, too juicy for my Mum, too juicy for my Dad I'll come and get you. Yep. When is it the end of the month? At the end of the month, innit? What date? April the No, you bumhead! What, next week, Friday? Ain't got a clue. Oh next Friday! What day you You finish paying for your T V, ain't it? Yeah. How does it feel, Charlotte? It feels no different cos I haven't got anything left. I'm going to the sauna. Are you? My mum goes on a Sunday? Are you gonna come with me? Bloody hell! It's just my hair! It's wearing a wig innit I do need a wig. Isn't sauna good for your hair? No. Not for it dries it up. Does it? Yes, so you have to put a lot of, like, mousse on or make it wet, no not wet, it stings Conditioner? Yeah. I can was my hair No, not conditioner. Conditioner, it just dries into your hair, cos when I but I come out, going like this You're joking! No, it wasn't that bad, I was exaggerating but it's like, it seems like So what? Can I put a swimming hat on then in the sauna? Swimming hat? You just get er, er one of them, erm put and that'll keep you hair moist and put one of them What does your Mum do? Mum'll come back with I don't know what she does. I wonder what my mum does. I swear she puts er, she washes her hair. So you can't wash your hair, right, and put the conditioner in it? Yeah you can but you've gotta use one of them cap things, not a swimming cap. Steam cap? Yeah, well, you know Yeah, but that would just knot onto your hair as well. No it won't and then we're going to the to get erm What's in eating nut cake oh well I'm going to you'll eat nut cake. You know we went in the health shop, I went in the health shop with you that time, went to buy that yoghurt? Some yoghurt? Look, you said to me that you wanted to buy some yoghurt in that fancy pot, German yoghurt and they've got that advert where they go with it. No, I wanted to buy I know it's something. Fruitella, too juicy for my Mum, too juicy for my Dad, too juicy for my Gran, man. Fruitella okay, see you tonight, in fifteen minutes. You can go with your Mum then, won't you? Oh, let me have one? Who's that? Andre. Hey Margaret. Hey Margaret. I like the things you do to me Do you remember Oh god! Oh god! Muscles need to be stretched in my body. Mm mm. I'm so tense. You need a massage! Yeah, go on tell me about Oh, yeah she come looking like a clown and erm What did the look like? Oh looked like, looked nice actually. Nice, nice looking? I think them what's I don't see that. He had a nice red car and he had this and he looked like a singer, like er, you know the kind of things that I like, right, women that look, they dress nicer, like. Anyway he looked like that he had a red car and he was sitting in the car and he put them down like that and they were like that in the car and after I thought I should've popped at her house see if she's wearing that in the house I thought you git. red hat on and then black and pink and white and green illuminous babygro thing and then white and orange trainers to match. Yeah, it had buttons going down the front here Yeah. it's kind of like baggy Yeah Done it up to there Yeah I can picture it What? Yeah it come up to there, yeah. She's mad! She looked mad. I thought she'd just popped out of her house like to have her hair done. What did she want? She just come to tell me that she really wants to take him out. Oh But she just told me she wanted her hair done. And we didn't know we could see her and we were looking out the window going and he was there looking, put his sunglasses on to see. Hello! Hold on a minute. Daddy it's for you! It's your girlfriend. You're rude! You said aloud as well. Shh! You're so stupid. stupid stupid. I can't remember now what I was doing You're so stupid! You know. Yeah, yeah erm Yeah, yeah erm Melanie talked, I was talking to Melanie about go out with him pull your eyes out of your head! Is she? Well has she gone out with her? No. Who is it? I didn't know you talked to her. You didn't seem like you knew her when you saw her Who's that? You! When you remember when we saw Serena and her in and we were going to buy Christmas presents Of course I know her! Yeah, I know, course you know her! But I mean, like, it didn't seem that you knew her like, properly, like, like to we all went shopping with her or something I can't remember now. What's that book about so far, Orgady? It's about some people they were in a car and they had an accident and they knocked down a boy, that was riding on his bike. And that was last summer and that was the next summer and the girl, one of the gir the people that was in the car gets a letter Mm. It was a hit and run accident. Oh yeah, hit and run, no one knew about it. When they, when she, the next summer she got a letter, anonymous letter saying I know what you did last summer and erm ne the other girl gets a letter, not a letter, something stuck on her front door. A picture of a boy on his bike. Oh know! And then next one of the boys gets a newspaper cutting of the article about the boy that died. Oh know! And that and that's how much I've read up to. That sounds interesting, doesn't it? Sounds crap! It sounds like it should be a film. Yeah, she, she does write books like, things like this for the Who's that? Louise whose quite a good a good author actually, you know. Sound like You know Anna's put on weight in her face, hasn't she? Can you tell with bloody king kong in it, bloody hell! I don't know what I said pretty hard or something. Pretty hard int it? So how are you a Oh yeah, how's your study? Good! It's a long time it's been going since that sort of thing. He's made it My hair goes mad you know. and no one can break it now, just get the hell I wanna get my hair done. out of here and in it. Yeah and I want her hair looked nice. Where? She had erm it was I wish I had her hair cos, you know Oh her hair how I looked erm when it was, I used to roll it at the back? Mm. Her was like that, rolled at the back, like that and curls coming out, yeah? Coming out on her face. That's how I had mine What? Curled like curls? Tongs? Oh like yours or ringlets? Ringlets, like that type of, not ringlets but tight, kind of ringlets. Like your hair, Charlotte? But not little ringlets my hair. You know like when how I used to have my hair Mm. That type of thing. I've got ringlets. But it was more Like, ringlets what I do? Kind of but a cross between the ringlets you do and the ringlets that I had and the type of hair I've got. Oh, so it was Yeah I wonder I know I saw her on the corner there I wonder what she's doing with her life? She's She's sitting in there waiting there for years I should think they'd give that back Mm it might've been. You can ask her if she wants to come. No, she can't any way she's working. Oh, she's got A-levels innit? Yeah and I'm erm Can homework? No she's not doing her homework, she's just sitting there. She'd just feel better if she went out. She just stays in and working and the whole family come round to her house computer room Er? What's a matter? Yeah, but what, I don't even know what I was gonna say to you. No, I think I'll phone her. no I can't and she wouldn't get off the phone and I wanted to get to the phone and she said, phone me up Is it all right then, I'll phone him afterwards! Yes, you phone me back straight away! Yeah, okay then, alright, I will do it, I will do it, yep. If it makes you feel You're going through madness you know, I don't know what you're, what you're doing to yourself. I'm not going out if I see her again. Will I? Everyone would be looking at me. They'd run my life. Yeah. I know Is she going? I don't know. She might have and when I see her I'm gonna tell her Who? Fiona, about my You're saying your sister's a lesbian? Don't know yet her mum's at the day centre, a day, you know she was gonna face her. She's got a stroke in her and her mum can't talk or walk. Granddad who lesbian there. Granddad, who was looking after her, died. I can't, I just I, where, sort of god almighty, this man, right, he was a good eighty-nine, right. Good twenty years older than my Grandmother, right. When I say he looked my Grandmother's age group and he he looked bulimia even though he'd not done it. her father a hundred thousand, wait until she's twenty-one though. When she's twenty-one that's when she can get her money because he died and left all the money to her, right. Cos he use to be er, you know like in them black films when famous tap dancers Oh yeah. he used to be one of them in America. When he found out his daughter had a stroke he had to come from America and look after her and like then, from then on, he was just like, had that money in the bank, really. He'd buy a house for Penny's mum, a big, big house and then they'd sell it again and he left every bit of the money to Dionne, so she'll be able to look after the child when she gets twenty-one and that, but now Has she got a child? Are you sure she's not working? I don't think so she's erm slow, she's, she's like erm, she has to go to a special school Oh, Charlotte because of what happened. What erm the one that was er erm get a flat, get a flat, a two-bedroomed house What? So she can live with him? Yeah. but I was really upset. I'm really upset found out. Really upset. I can't believe it! You think what, what, do you think did you know she was She used to send us erm like I think, she didn't send us one this year though, she's erm like, wherever she is she'd send us a Christmas card, an Easter card she didn't say where she is or anything. Did, do you know, do you know if she's been with someone? No. I haven't heard from her since last summer. your house one time My life is over, I think. My life's finished. Orgady! Yeah? Yeah, coming. I know, I'm just You're taking a bit too long enough, you know. I was just taking my time that's why. Why do you take your time all the time? Why should I rush it? Because you've got to hurry up Did she give it to you? Yes, she's got one as well I think this book is good for a film actually. I got through half the book. Good girl. Stop. my satisfaction maybe even more than just a day. What I have to do on chapter. They ask you that, but they, they say if you don't do that you can do something else. I don't know what No, there ain't nothing else I could do. Supposed to do what? You've read this book called Roll Of Thunder, yeah? No. And what we've gotta do Roll Of Thunder, Hear My Cry Roll Of Thunder, Hear My Cry Pass the chair? Oh. We're meant to put Roll Of Thunder, Hear My Cry? That's it. And we gotta, like Thank you. erm write our own chapter. We gotta write own chapter two. I'm writing it the same as she writes her book. Er? Really? Yeah. How many words is Words? We get told that, we used to get told like, use six thousand or seven thousand or numbers like that. It took ages. So everyone's gonna count their words? Yeah, it was a certain amount of pages. No, but they say pages not words. Is it? They say words at my school. What, is it Romeo and Juliet or something? I have to get, I have to get people's conversations. Oh that thing. You signed to do it? Yeah. You will be careful with that, won't you? Yeah! Cos it costs a lot of money. Especially the ones Have you used one? with microphones. It's not wa with a microphone it's just that I've got a little socket for a microphone. It's not really expensive it's not that. Yes it is expensive. It's more than a hundred pounds I bet. Hundred pounds! Ridiculous! It's got play, rewind, record, pause, but Yeah the ones with rewind buttons got the more expensive. Still not gonna cost a hundred pounds. Alright then, maybe not that much but quite a lot. Yeah. Over forty pounds I bet. Yeah about maybe forty five. Can I go now? Why? Cos I want to. Have you got Snot? The music Snot? No! I've told you I haven't got it, Robert. Blimming heck! What's a matter with you? Just wanna, just wanna know if you've got it? No I haven't. What, where can I hear it? Cos I, I can't hear it on any of the stations. You could when they play it probably, Robert. They play it, you notice if they're in the charts, you could listen to when they play Where? Where? When? the charts! When they on? Well, probably, I think Saturday or Sunday they play the charts. Don't you ever listen to the radio, you know? And don't slouch, put your shoulders back, boy! And put your stomach in. How can I walk like this? You have to walk like that, but put your shoulders back. You slouch like that. Put your shoulders back. Unusual innit. It's very expensive that's why it's unusual. Sixty nine ninety nine. is that all right? It is done isn't It? why have you got that on your head. What's it doing take it off. Oh yeah. take it off Mm. take it off I don't like it, take it off What? What's wrong with you? What? What? He's bloody mad, he's potty, off his rocker. Where did you get it? Get what? The thing. Well why Well why do you need it, why do you need a towel? Why do you need a towel. Why er why game. Mum and Dad's got it. Come on Mum. Go get in the blooming bath. Why? I'll rewi rewind that actually heard what you say, you must be very naughty and nasty thing to be to your son. I can't have a sweet then. Well you're not give me a sweet an all. Should give me a sweet you know. You should. You're gonna turn it off because I wanna tear you off a strip about something. Me? Yeah. Why? What are we talking about? Mum what's Hamlet about? Pardon? What's Hamlet about? Hamlet? Yes. I don't know much about Shakespeare, the only play I've seen is Romeo and Juliet and A Midsummer Night's Dream. to er see Rome and Juliet. Mm. And I think I need to make it up. When is I dunno. Well you better find out then. What do ya mean I alw I'm only saying it cos I got Well no if you can go. You give me the money for it? If it's within reason as I assume it will be. Five Pounds. That's okay. W would it make much difference for you lending me the money. Not a lot. Well there's a quite a bit of difference between five and fifty isn't there and the one thing is for your educational needs and the other I'm so convinced about. Well Yeah. I thought a computer No, but I know that you're dying to have a computer, and if money was no object, then we probably wouldn't hesitate in lending it to you, but really and truly at this moment things are tight and we can't afford to commit ourselves with things unless it's absolutely necessary. Well And that's it, I mean I've made it as plain as I can. That is it and I hate it when you keep on and on nagging. I won't go and see Romeo and Juliet. Well don't go, it's not my fault if you don't pass your exams. All right. Did you watch that animated version that you recorded. Yeah. Does it give you the gist of the story? It,half an hour long. Well I think it's longer than half an hour. They probably should an hour at the most. Given you er erm The film is about hour and five minutes. You can probably have a video of it as long of another version. Well it's does help to see different versions because you see that different people interpret the Why do you Mm? Well it depends on the people who are producing or directing or whatever, so it's all got different ways of doing it. When I was studying I went to Open Air Theatre and I saw a version there on Christopher er what's his name that chubby fellow with the glasses Christopher Biggins that's it. He was playing Puck and when I went to see the Company doing it well they had a completely different way of doing it, they wo they did it really like er a dec you know the the mechanical play, I don't know if you know A Midsummer Night's Dream. They did it in a completely slapstick farce way you know th the men who were dressed up women they balloons and had rosy red cheeks and wigs and things, it was quite different. How they Well that's it, when Shakespeare wrote a play and the text has survived and , but the way of of joshing the people on the way they do it is different every generation and even most of the people in the same generation would would have a different way of doing it. Okay. There's a comedienne erm she apparently was born in Wales. Mhm. Two Ton Tessie O'Shea that's her. Two Ton Tessie? She yeah, that's her her nickname, cos she was quite big and she played the nurse in Romeo and Juliet in the season on Stratford on Avon and she did it using a Welsh accent because she thought Shakespeare, having coming from quite near the Welsh Border Country might well have had might well have had a Welsh nurse. So it didn't matter that Romeo and Juliet is set in Italy. Mm. She did it as she would have thought Shakespeare would have known people and things, you know, she did it like that. Mm. And I remember Amanda seeing a video of Romeo and Juliet And what struck me was that the costumes were all sort of like you see portraits of Elizabethan dress. Now I don't what Italy and those Middle Ages would have been like, that the sort of clothes that were worn. Mhm. But the clothing in that film struck me very much as being like Elizabethan dress. Yeah, I mean now plays of Shakespeare and they're wearing modern dress like those worn at Richard the Third or something and they're wearing well either First or Second World War uniforms. Yes. It was very different then. Yeah, well it's just different directors have different things they want to emphasise in a play and if they want to bring something home or they think that using a certain well like say the way the people are dressed and everything will will have more of an impact, you know will One thing I was wondering about you know they they talk about erm in Shakespeare's works is the language the words he uses, the the sort of poetry of it and the symbolism that's used. Erm do they talk about that at all in your English Literature Yes. Do they show you how you can learn about this, there's a book you know the book I bought you it's got notes in it. Does that help with it? I suppose Pardon? Well you should do. And what about I bought some revision books and things study aids or something for Amanda for her English literature Well I bought them for Amanda and she was doing Romeo and Juliet. So if you look in those you may find there's some help there. Yeah. any problems, any problems the council for er two years, there are and I think that she's actually provided a very significant contributions to the council. It is I think with great regret that we receive her resignation er but understand it. So perhaps we can for the contribution that she's made in sh in a short time. We have then the items listed. Erm, the first one is the Nottingham Association of Local Councils. Remember that we, we sent er ten pounds to the area committee, which they've said, thank you very much indeed, erm for, and, and there's a meeting erm next in June, which is their next meeting. Where the er village care officer is going to attend, and I'll er attempt to get to that meeting. Well, you know, probably be, the new chairman will attempt to go to that meeting I suppose,after the annual meeting. We've had a letter from erm the Mayor's parlour,, saying that he's er going to visit the parish on the first of May to attend the commemorative service. Participate. We've also had a letter from Southwell Civic Society about the church free car park. And I think it's worth s er reading out that the Civic Society have asked er Betty in Arundel to write to us in order to express their appreciation of the work that's been carried out in the church free car park. The new park planting etcetera really enhances the area, so that's nice to hear from the Civic Society, and they're also saying that er they're grateful for the newspaper collection, which their office is thinking has been put to good use. And say that their members save their newspapers too. Some other news. We've had a letter er from Severn Trent Water. You'll reme you'll recall that Severn Trent used to subcontract their sewerage maintenance to the District Council. They've n now terminated that agreement, and now erm sewerage problems should be directed to er Biffa Environmental Services, who are now doing a subcontract rather than the District Council. There's a local telephone number, which I've already had occasion to use, unsuccessfully as it happens, and, I think, Anne, you were also involved in that significant problem, on er on that there is a loc er no plumber. Anne? But I think John we should point out that it was, it was only unsuccessful because it turned out not to be a sewerage problem. It turned out to be surface water drainage. And the this Biffa company don't do anything to do with the surface drainage, surface water drainage, that is dealt with by the County Council Highways Authority, who don't circulate an emergency telephone number, and this problem occurred over the bank holiday Easter weekend. But I think we should say that Biffa er what do they call it? Environmental Environmental, turned out immediately that we telephoned them to say there was a flood in on the , and they were ex extremely fast and very efficient, and they came back later in the day when the Highways Authority still hadn't erm responded to our calls. And, and were prepared to do the work so long as they could get the say so from erm the Highways Authority. Erm so Who couldn't be contacted. May we have that telephone number? Yes, the telephone number is er for sewage problems, if you remember,. And how do you spell Biffa? B I F F A . Right. Peter? talk you know there was the Notts County Council on the erm gully problems that we get in , is it possible to write to the County Council to ask them what sort of maintenance programme they're going to give us now, as regards this cos I've not seen this wagon going round so frequently as it used to. I mean you'd see it going round the town quite regularly emptying the gullies. But y you very rarely see it now, and I should like to know when these gullies are being emptied, and what the programme is? Because we still keep getting ch the same charge for it, community charge, etcetera. And I believe it's a facility that's, you know, is now lacking in Southwell. Well I think we'll ask the clerk to, to, I think it's a good point, yes, indeed. C can we all st And that wouldn't have occurred that weekend on the Ropewalk if there'd have been a proper programme, of empty emptying gullies. Mhm. Well, yes, the gully actually was blocked completely in and We should have a visit by the head of the Notts County Council Highways, for the footpaths' scheme. That was something you instigated. Mhm. Erm, it's another item when we meet this gentleman, Mr can raise with him. should probably ask Mr to come to one of our P c Parish Council full meetings. Well we've asked him to meet us with regard to the footpaths, so we could use it for that at the same time, I think we're walking round, I think's probably more, more efficient than perhaps inviting him to a meeting. Well I can tell you now why are constantly blocked up . A any problems, if you could send them to Steve,the then we'll er we'll er check those out, yes? Yeah, I'm a bit concerned because we've got a mixture of adopted and unadopted sewers in Southwell, haven't we? And er I know when I had experience in the past, last New Year, the District Council's come out on behalf of the residents. They've always come out, but they always do then check while they're there to see whether the property concerned is on the list of private, adopted or unadopted and there can be a mixture. But they always do the job, and worry about the recharge afterwards. Which of course is what residents concerned about. Now can we be assured that Biffa are in fact going to do that same service, not turn up and say, you're not allowed this, nothing to do with us. Because they are a private contractor now. And I think what we should get as a Parish Council, is an assurance from Biffa, that they, or from the District Council, from Severn Trent, really, if they are the people that contracted out the work, that a re any resident in Southwell who, who is afflicted by sewerage problems is going to get immediate and urgent attention. Whether or not the sewer is adopted. Because if you've got your back garden flooded with foul water, you're not really concerned about anything else other than the d than getting the blockage cleared. I'm assuming that David's suggested that people did call the number adopted or not, and I would have thought that was Well, they did do it, but they used to recharge residents for unadopted sewers. well, sorry to interrupt, but we had a man that was very knowledgeable, with, I think gardens, and he's a local man, er always turned up very quickly. Yeah. And I think that that degree of, that loss of local knowledge could be very serious. Yes. Actually, They're taking the same men on. that's found in Thank you chairman, sorry to have laboured the point. I think that's a good point,w we will raise that with Biffa as well. Er we also have one other item of correspondence recorded on the list, er which was addressed to The Lord Mayor of Southwell, England, and it got here. Well done the post office. From Germany, containing some er nineteen forty late fi early fi early fifties photographs, from a er a doctor , erm in Germany. Without any correspondence, but just to, for our archives. So we are going to write back and say, thank you very much indeed, and I suggest she sends her one of the Two up-to-date postcards, no two of the maps, we got the maps, so we can send her a map. Excellent idea. Mhm. Mhm. Aye, yeah. Er can we move on then,? No. No. Can we move then to item number seven, the financial statement of the payments? Chairman, sorry. On, on correspondence, there was this letter which also appeared in the , that was sent to me, for notice to the Parish Council about the erm parked cars along Westgate, and er Church Street, which we wanted obviously Oh yes. sorry, I thought mine was a copy, but it's not. From, young , I think he must be about eleven, saying, I'm concerned about safety crossing the road at Westgate, because cars and lorries go very fast along there. Sometimes it's so busy I go across with some of my friends with the crossing lady at the village school, and then walk back down Nottingham Road towards the school. I'm also concerned about the safety of other er pedestrians, mothers with babies and young children, or older children and even teenagers. Please could you get some crossing lights, a zebra crossing, or some traffic lights put in. It would make us a lot safer and cars may not go as fast. yes. that's, that's er I know that Mrs has asked er youngsters at the Minster School to write in, and obviously this is one of the first of those. So that's good to hear, and we'll we'll forward it on to, copies of that to the relevant organization. Lynn? Can I you had in ? I know they've been writing them. Erm I'm not sure er perhaps that's just one of them,rather than It's obviously the, the, the pressure upon the County Council to get something done about the traffic. Do you think perhaps we ought to erm ask the school if they've got the letters ready yet, rather than Mhm, yes. leave it too long I phoned Mrs on erm Wednesday this week er Monday this week, sorry, and er she's yet to phone me back. Thank you. I will put that on the side and just with the rest as you're going Now I'll move on to the financial statements. Firstly, the financial statement which you received earlier,are thick documents, which Steve circulated. This is the document which will be going for audit, and er that's on the agenda a little bit later, erm, on the last financial year. Steve, can you talk Of course. us through that? You can see from nineteen ninety two ninety three financial year, our income from the whole year was a hundred and twenty one thousand pounds. Just look at the first page . Carried forward for this year, for this year is thirty eight thousand three hundred and fifteen pounds, our precept is sixty thousand pounds, and our expected income is fourteen K. So giving us a total income for the year of about a hundred and twelve thousand pounds. Our planned expenditure for this year er works out at ninety one thousand one hundred, and this includes the money for projects. So it gives us erm erm a possible carry forward to next financial year of twenty one thousand pounds. Erm the account balances, and it's ready to go to audit now, erm and there are no outstanding transactions at this point. Peter? N n no comment, I think it's all fairly self-explanatory. So I Can I just enquire why er we had to state getting the fourteen thousand In total? Interest. Where? Interest. Right, if you look at page number They're not numbered No, this is on the income sheet which i penultimate penultimate sheet, Yeah. you receive, last year, income was twelve thousand five hundred and sixty one pounds, er next year it does go up slightly because we didn't receive any tennis club fees last year. six hundred pounds, the pitch fees about seven hundred pounds, bowls club pay us three hundred and fifty pounds, the tennis club for the two years, subscriptions will be twelve hundred pounds, the fair three hundred and fifty pound for two visits, erm one hundred and seventy five each visit, and the rugby club will pay us about three hundred pounds for the use of the pitch on ground. Investments, two thousand five hundred. I'm hoping to get investments of two thousand five hundred, obviously with interest rates coming down, it's er Optimistic. The lease for Southwell City Football Club, forty five pounds, our waste paper income, about five hundred pounds in the calendar year, er V A T refund about three thousand pounds, and grants I've put down five thousand pound income for the year. I've actually put in for twenty thousand pounds' worth of grants at this point, however, let's see whether I'm fortunate to achieve that. Erm and finally,w we do get one or two smaller items of income from er selling of the maps and erm other items. That comes to fourteen thousand one hundred and fifty pounds. ? D does the football club's pitch fees not appear in this income? Yes it does, in the top, the first . The pitch fees money. seven hundred pounds. The, the budget is the one that had been approved previously. What hasn't been approved is this full, audited for the full financial statement for last financial year. This is an end of year statement if you look, er giving the erm the income of a hundred and twenty five thousand and ninety nine pounds, and the expenditure there on the on the back page, of eighty two thousand seven hundred and eighty three pounds. So it's that that we're approving tonight. Er full council, so that it can go to audit, and the arrangements explain later. Roger? I move that we we approve it, and can I also er compliment the, the clerk on, I thought this an excellent document, I mean, I don't know it before or not, but it was well put together, very concise, and I could understand it myself. So I thought that that was pretty good. So erm, I would say,. Well done. Hear, hear. Thank you very much indeed. Yes, is that approved then? Agreed. Thank you. We've also got the bills for payment er on your list, there are a number of bills for payment, are there any questions about those bills for payment? There are some verbal additions. Which are? Yes. The first item, Severn Trent Water. We are asking for your approval for two bills, a thirty pounds sixty four, and a hundred and fifty three pounds twelve. That is the annual payment, and although we're seeking approval now for the whole payment, we will defer one of, half of those, both of those payments until the six months' interval, in order to gain the interest. So, although we are seeking approval now, for the whole total, we will in fact pay half in six months' time er as is normal procedure on, on our water bills. There are some additions, further additions please, because of er urgency. Right, first there is from the District Council, and it's pond, er has anybody seen pond ? Not recently. It looks absolutely super. It's been erm . The bill for that is three hundred and eighty six pounds and fifty three pence. And this also includes a fence. I've changed the specifications of the fence, so my brother got the but I put a smaller fence in there, not the huge three bar one which was er previously , it doesn't really change specifications . Erm my more than it was? No, it still goes , it is actually. But it's cos I changed it, they were going to put a large fence in Oh right. and I thought, it'll be too much in that little area. Er, my claim for expenses for the park, which is on the agenda later come back to this, the cleaner's wages, one trip to Newark, bill development er for Mrs Susan , phone calls made from home. The total claim tw is twenty nine pounds sixty. My accountant has advised me to stop claiming. There's been all sorts of problems with regard to paying cleaner's wages, because I become her employer, so I've been advised to stop that, hence it's on the agenda. So this will be my last claim ever. Erm I've got four weighbridge tickets for waste from pond, twenty f twenty pounds and four pence. Erm it's just for rubbish I removed from pond. Er a bill from for tracing and disconnecting an unused underground cable. Erm which we found on the recreation ground. The bill is for nineteen pounds and forty pence. Erm, we'll come again to this er item later in the, in the er. Harry and son, decorator. Paint and sign work carried out to toilets on the recreation grounds. Erm, if you've actually been down there, there are now smart plastic signs telling people what the building is, and giving all the details it looks very nice. It's a lot, but it's been well decorated, it looks a, a bit more like a public toilet now,. And finally a bill for the centre of fourteen pounds fourteen pence, which are just items that Don draws, er a mousetrap, er a bin, etcetera. It's But there are then two sets of bills for paying, there's the ones we've got written, and those verbal Any q all in agreement? Mhm. Move on then to item number eight. Er there was a Notts County Council liaison conference which I think Anne and Christine went to. I'm not sure. We did? Yes we did. We did. Have you got er anything to say for it? Erm yes, very briefly. You'll be pleased to hear. Erm on the twenty ninth of March, Anne and myself went to a meeting of the County Council, organized well, to liaise with parish councils. And there were two main items on the agenda. Erm one was erm an account of er care in the community, and erm the implications for Nottingham, and how it was going to be, and they were planning to implement it erm which was of general interest. Er a specific on only thing that might have been I think was really, erm the erm the concern that some people expect erm are for rural areas, whether there was going t there were going to be con whether things were going to be spread thinner on the ground in rural areas, particularly sort of transport costs, and of course erm there's one , but nevertheless, the concern that that would be underlying that and the erm the erm the the rural community The council? erm and then the, the, the second import erm major action was about erm local government , and I think that's really where the point which we, we've reached a take-home message that we want to erm bring to this council. Two things. One that erm the erm in any kind of structure, it was felt very er strongly that parishes should be represented in, and that they should listen to er perhaps have a much more erm important role than they have now, in a unitary or erm an all-purpose authority. And the County presented erm a, a range of options. Mhm. I have to say, relatively er in an erm unbiased as unbiased as they could be. Er from the extreme option of having a single unitary c erm council, for the whole of the county, erm to on the other hand having erm eight unitary councils based on the existing, er and it's in the document I think the clerk's got and you've probably got. But that, that was the er th erm sorry I'm interrupting myself. Based on the eight erm present District Councils. So and then all erm possibilities between, between those two. And they presented the cost of them, the immediate cost of implementing them, the ongoing cost or, or any saving that there might be because erm and erm left, left that for er for comment. And I think the erm the clerk's got, you've got this document haven't you? Yeah. Erm have, I don't think that the that the councillors have it. But it's quite an interesting one to, to look at. Erm, and it gives you part of the range of their proposals. So I, I should think it's erm it is worth councillors having, having a look at what, what is proposed. Erm, and then the other important message was that the erm the coun the commissioners w were looking at er erm all the councils in the , in the country, in England, during the next five years. And coming to Nottingham on beginning, on June the twenty first. And it's most important that we the Parish Council get in our erm send our views to the, the commissioners. They're only coming for eleven weeks, and that of course starting in June, take some holidays, and erm there's so it's quite important that we should erm make our best strong erm representation to of our views erm of how we see, erm our message of the main organization, and I think that was erm Just on that last point, it was suggested that we ought to be writing now, to these commissioners, saying that we as a parish council wanted to make comments to them when they were er in Nottinghamshire. So and, and I think maybe it's a good idea that we write and say that we would like to be given an opportunity to speak to them. Yes. It is Yes. Because if you remember we wrote to the Department of Environment putting our views forward, when the commission was just about to get . Right. And I think it would be a good time now to, to point out to the to s to er to say that we'd like to have our views heard at that time. To me they're not . Er alder people have about that time,it's important that and I think it is. Erm th there were some complaints about er, this is first liaison meeting that there'd been in the county, and you know they were obviously out there listening . Er and that did underline er we feel at the moment that we're not being listened to by the , how important it would be, it is, erm if there's to be any kind of inter village, Any other point on the questions? The problem, Mr Chairman, is that after they've got them into the authority, they'll forget all about us again. Yes, I I think they have to, this is why we have to get in at the beginning, and be, be part of the structure. Er and Pat's actually being listened to's too weak, I think parish councils should be part of the structure. I think that's what we should, we should ask for. Local monitors things are different in, in, in different as in the smaller er region of Can I just ask Mr Chairman I, I mean the battle seems to be between the council and the District Councils, is there any danger that the outcome would be the abolition of parish councils? No, in the, in the erm the Department of the Environment, they are actually talking about unitary authorities. Now, the question for parishes would th they wouldn't be abolished, the, the question is, how much additional powers and responsibilities would be devolved to the parishes, and that's the question. There's no question, there's no er discussion of the abolition of the parish councils at all. I it is to what extent parishes will have additional powers and responsibilities, and er I think we'll get onto this one, item number seventeen on our agenda. John? of putting that item next agenda chairman, to consider this matter, who's going to represent this parish council, er as a member ? We made mention that we've already submitted something in writing. Has it gone to specifically to the address of the commissioners? If it hasn't, is it worth our er now sending it to them, because if they don't come here, at least we've then submitted something in writing. And I also wondered whether there is a case, I don't know to what extent the County Council is listening themselves, that whether the case for also submitting our views to the County Council. Erm if we put it on the agenda, perhaps we could circ we'll, we'll recirculate the brief submission that we made, which was about a side of A four if you recall, to the er to the Department of the Environment. It probably sums up the case and we can discuss it and perhaps add to it at that time. Yeah, thank you it was a good idea. David? Yeah, we were also er notified of a, a liaison meeting called by the District Council. Erm the has gone, in the past, er I just wondered whether any of us were able to attend that, and if so what the outcome of that was. I think if you recall we had about er three days' notice of that didn't we? I certainly had very little notice of that. Mm. I'm certainly going to one this next No, this, this was late April, it was called by erm Mr , wasn't it? And the er ? That's right. But it was also very Can I just say that I, I went to the meeting to do with local planning at Hall That's the one. to represent, to represent, this was for voluntary services. on Tuesday morning, and I went to see the secretary on . But in fact there was very little apart from discussion at the end, that was actually relevant to voluntary services, it was about local government reorganization which was very interesting, for me as a parish councillor . So erm that was quite informative, actually. I think that's That was Mr . I think that's the one danger of all of this, is that both the County Council's and the District Council's aim perhaps or now are beginning to listen to the parish councils, but also, just really get an eye off the ball, cos they're looking for the increased responsibilities for their own purposes, and I think that's one serious danger that we c have to face, as a local community. But hope it doesn't happen. I think what you say is quite true Chairman, but I still I think the bottom line to it is, at the end of the day, to do away with a strategic authority, such as the County Council, in my opinion, if you look at what's happened in the metropolitan areas, er in the country, Tyneside, Manchester, the West Midlands, areas like that, West Yorkshire, South Yorkshire, and er London itself, the er the doing away with a strategic authority. It might save money, but in terms of the environmental impact it is quite disastrous, and I think that it's only now that the real problems in London for example are coming home to roost, er and I would ask that point to be borne in mind by whoever we decide should make representations to the commissioners. Right thank you. We'll put this on the agenda for the next meeting. Thank you,. That was interesting. Can we move on then to item number nine, er there's a slight alt er a slight erm change to the agenda here,i this should read erm, replacement nomination for the Police Area Liaison Committee. Erm, Stuart erm sat on the Police Liaison Committee. He wasn't an official nominee of this parish council, but he er was a person who attended the meetings and, and in Stuart's, with Stuart's resignation from this, because he found it difficult to get to, because of commitments, erm it's suggested that the parish council might be able to identify one of its number in order to be able to at least continue some erm represent private representation on the Liaison Committee. Anybody Is it John can you give us any er a little idea what the Police Complaints Authority ? No, it's not the Police Complaints Authority. It's the Police Area Liaison. Area Liaison. Liaison? Ah, I'm sorry, I, I mixed I got slight It's the Police Area Liaison Committee, that I think meets every three months. Er in the Southwell area,erm er This is the meeting that, that, to which people are invited to from all over Yeah. the area, in which you stand up and make points that, that might be of interest to the police. Yes. Yes. Yeah. I've been to one Is there anyone who's prepared to represent Southwell? It doesn't have to be someone from this parish council, maybe other people are interested, or prepared to attend. It's actually a member of the public from Southwell, that I think that there's a is afternoons. It is. Which makes it when everyone's working. Yes. Er Stuart, Stuart did phone me some months ago on this issue, to say he was having increasing difficulty getting to the meetings, and he asked me if er I would take it on, and I said, I would if, you know, if he were pushed. Pushed. Yeah. Er and I believe the meetings take place in Newark, which is not too bad for me to to get to er so I think There we are then. a volunteer. I can't guarantee making every meetings. No. I, I suggest that we erm propose David as our, as a Southwell representative. , I believe. If I don't turn up one night, don't, don't get apprehensive, I think Mr Chairman there is a feeling of erm well there's a feeling that these meetings would be far more positive now, with the change in the hierarchy of the police in Can I then move on to item number ten, the Southwell market refurbishment. Anne, you might have something to say on this? Erm chairman, the erm District Council officer who's been erm delegated to draw up the scheme for for the parish coun for, for the town did meet erm here, one morning some weeks ago, with myself and Steve , the clerk, and showed us some er a sketch of what was being proposed. Now, has he not left it with the Parish Council? He hasn't. I thought that was very useful. Erm what is now being proposed is a somewhat less regimented plan than we had before, if you remember there were lines of trees before in a very grid-like pattern across the marketplace. There is still the, the main focus of the scheme is still repaving the surface and tree planting. The tree planting now en envisages erm I think it's four or five trees across the frontage onto King, King Street, so including the one that exists, four more new ones. Very big trees it, it's suggested should be planted along there, so that they make an immediate impact. And then coming down from a point on King Street just to the left of the existing tree, if you can imagine that, and coming back across the marketplace where the dropped kerb is, that takes you on to the private road. Going to say A sort of little ar a pathway should be cleared there of natural York paving stones, so that you bisect the marketplace, but not immediately in the middle. It's more or less a third of the marketplace will then be to the right. Near the launderette and then the rest is . And then this York paving stone theme would be also in a strip all the way round the perimeter of the existing marketplace, and so that you have two areas of, of natural York paving stone, high quality paving. The rest of the market area would be paved in something less expensive, but still something that looked very nice, but it's more manmade. I, I, I think he described them as light granite , but, but actually of a manmade material, which is being used at the moment in Nottingham on a something called a heritage walk which takes you up to the lace market in Nottingham. If anybody knows that area, they'll know what he's talking about. Erm and then on an area of the, the main York paving stone pathway that bisects the thing, there would be a sort of circular erm paving theme motif, in the middle of this path. And in the middle of that, they thought that perhaps an ornamental lighting column with sort of, with lights coming out from the top of it just to make it a bit more fancy. And then there would be more trees pl Oh yes, and on either side of this, this pathway, there would also be an avenue of trees. So that was the main tree planting, this avenue of trees down on either side of this little path. I'm sorry that we haven't got the sketch to show you. It's really difficult. Are, are you following? And then there would be a few more trees around the, the back area if you like of the erm er marketplace. It was also proposed that the piece of roadway that comes from Road, in front of the community centre for 's Court, which at the moment is lower than the marketplace, the marketplace is raised, and th the road is lower. It sh it's proposed the road should be raised on a level with the marketplace, and possibly also paved with this, this granite type paving, so that the pedestrianization idea would continue right the way across to the 's Court community centre. Not so that it would stop cars getting across into the car park, but it would nevertheless give the impression. So it would slow traffic down basically it would have to rise up onto this, this path. Erm then there would be the idea of seating into this little er ornamental circular paved area, and seating at different parts around the edges. Bollards as we've asked for across the frontage as well, and the back. Erm and that was about it. And it was suggested that this scheme should be presented to us, I thought one of their representatives was supposed to be coming here tonight to present it to us, obviously not been possible. They've also asked that I should put a drawing of this scheme which they have sent to me in the May edition of the Bramley, with an article from them, explaining it, asking for comments from the public, and this will be their public consultation exercise. They'd also like comments from this Parish Council , and it was odd that they haven't given us a sketch to look at. But really that was er the purpose of the meeting, where they presented it you know in that form. And Chairman, er has any money been put aside by ? Sorry, they did tell us that, that the whole costing of the scheme was going to be ninety thousand pounds, it was going to cost ninety thousand, just to do what we've, yes, what I've just described to you. Very very expensive, apparently to do paving and to do some mature semi-mature tree planting. The District Council has already set aside twenty thousand, I think it was twenty one thousand. twenty one thousand pounds, Is that in one year, or over various years? No, it's been, it's been over a period of two or three years? Seven thousand pound a year. Seven po thousand pounds a year, that's right, over three years, a really feeble contribution by comparison to the Parish Council, which has also put aside over five thousand. But there is in total at the moment twenty five thousand pounds available. Twenty six thousand Twenty six thousand pounds available. And it was suggested by the er two officers that were present, that that could, that money that's already there, could in fact get a third of the scheme done, the third which was the bisecting little path, the main trees across the front, and the bit of the paving that takes you over to the North Road. The rest would have to be done in phases. They thought they could do this first third this year, during the summer, over the summer months, if there was general agreement for the scheme. They would move the market stalls of course. That'd be the bollards and the, the er set, the York stone sets which continue the line of of Road basically, from the entrance to 's Court straight across towards erm towards the erm greengrocers. It continues that line. And the part which sides the launderette. Peter? Thank you chairman. Well I won't give an opinion whether I agree with the scheme or not, because I would like to see some of the drawings first before I gave a, you know, of an opinion of it, like you know everybody else around this table. But what concerns me greatly again, is we seem to be doing it or the District Council in bits and bobs. Now the District Council have taken a lot of money off this town, over the market stalls now, for a number of years, and I believe if they're going to do a scheme like this which has been going on now for over eight years, it should be done all in one go. I don't think you can do a third one year and then try and raise some more money over the next few years and do another third. I would like to see the scheme be taken on, and done properly. And d let's have a proper job in the town for a change. Lynn. Can I ask if the sum is ninety thousand? Nine O. When they, when they came in the summer and they said erm they, they planned and they said approximately how much, what were those figures? They weren't anything like that were they? Well they weren't York stone then were they? I don't think they quoted a figure, I think I, I think actually we do need to see the drawings. And I'm disappointed that the District Council officers nei ei any of the three come, I understand one's ill, but I mean it seems a bit disappointing cos I did actually September last year they came, September last year they came with the display I think perhaps we'll ask them to come to our next meeting, or the meeting after that. Since our meeting in May is the annual meeting, we're pushed for time there. But, I mean as soon as we can g get them to come along, and actually ask them to To a planning meeting? To, to a planning meeting. To a planning meeting. Yes. Yeah. Pat? Erm I, I'd like to see what Peter would like to see actually, I think we ought to see the whole thing done in one fell swoop. Can't see it happening, but it would be better. But just a minor point, erm if we're going to settle for one third the job initially, is that going to improve the bollards to the front and rear? Because obviously it's, they are going to some of the paving, we don't wanting it running up a small onto the next lot. It is? It would include the bollards, but not the paving up the side of Road. No, Two of the bollards o on both the street end and road So it came out to be impossible to d to drive on paving,that. Because obviously they'll, they'll be able to get their equipment when they finish the job. Mhm. Mhm. One Well would assume. Yes, but, the the main part of this as I understand the drawing, you'll have to ask Mr when he comes, but the main part of, of the square, which wouldn't be the third which is done in the first phase according to the phase that they're currently proposing. It wouldn't be York stone set anyway. This would be this concrete, concrete type of erm small, small brick. So about er erm two hundred by three hundred mil. It wouldn't be very large, but anything large or anything on a large square well if they're working on it, once they put their bollards up . Well some some of them will be removable, because they remove them whilst they do the second phase. I it strikes me that there seems to be some really muddled thinking erm coming from the District Council, erm with real sort of erm er erm contradictions. On, on one hand, you're talking about, or they're talking about, we're talking about, improving the aesthetics aspect of the market place,wi with nice pavings and attractive features. And on the other hand, the moment they , they're going to stick masses and masses er o o of stands,the the these market trader pieces on it, and really I can't understand er why bother, if you're going to destroy something in that sort of way? Why bother to do it in the first place? I, I think that there's a lot of confusion going on, and, and I don't understand it. I'm not sure just who where, how people are arriving at these two decisions. It's almost as if it's a completely different team, that don't even talk to one another. It's the same department. Well, it's a different team. That's correct. That's right. Now I've got to move on, please, can I have one point? Can I ask a does the scheme erm mention stalls, and what were Not as a permanent feature, no no, I think that the er the But the other scheme did at least indicate where the stalls would be,taken that into account. No, these didn't show any stalls, but they're i it was explained that one of the constraints in the design of the scheme was the brief that they had to leave space for er as many stalls as possible to be erected. But they had ? Yes, that's right. We'll ask Mr to, to come along to erm Southwell centenary, which is next year if you recall, erm we've at a previous meeting I raised this erm the point with councillors that next year is our centenary of our formation, we don't have any archives unfortunately, er they were lost in the last sort of decade. Oh quite conveniently. Erm, but it is our centenary, and I just wondered other, other parish councils are recognizing the centenary in other ways. The, I've only had only suggestion erm put to me, but there may be others. The suggestion I've had is that we have got held in the budgets erm land acquisition, I mean it may be that we actually pool this the, the new land acquisition after the centenary, which might be erm a way of recognizing the centenary of the, of the parish council. Other parish councils are holding markets and holding events, but I, I don't know. Any comment? What do you mean other parish councils are holding All have other people got centenaries as well? Yes. Er in eighteen ninety four, the Parish Councils Act was established by, by the Gladstone government, it was, erm which created the network of, for the first time, of local community representation. And so in Nottinghamshire, erm other councils, such as Farnsfield and Balderton also established simultaneously. So there will be national events, but er I'm thinking particularly in Southwell. Bob, er I take it that you know the suggestion that we perhaps name the er thing, this particular thing, you know the centenary fields or something like that, you know is a very good suggestion, but I think perhaps the council ought to do something. Perhaps we ought to have a service at the Minster, or er something to you know, er remember the service of many given to the parish council over a hundred years, and er and it's something simple, and I think it would be quite nice to er to do something like that. What we incorporate Erm I, I, I agree with that. In fact I mean you can buy or I mean you've got the record of erm how far back , you could invite all the existing,living parish councillors, so far as we could, and, and that, that would be, I think that would be fascinating. perhaps a reception in the great hall . Well, I don't want it's not something peculiar to us is it? Erm it's a hundred years of parish government really, and er I would have thought probably we'll find out that the National Association of Local Councils will probably be organizing something we can erm erm you know, adhere to. If some project comes up during the course of the year, I would have thought that it might be appropriate to erm er cobble the name of centenary onto it, but I don't really think that this year we just commit ourselves to something just because there's a hundred years of parish government coming up . Sorry, but er I don't think, I don't really think it's peculiar to us, I, I disagree entirely. They ought to So the, the two suggestions which we'll put forward then is, is naming one of capital projects in, in this financial year, of the centenary, and possibly looking at er erm joining into a service or establishing a service with the Minster, and I'll, I'll look into that with the Provost as well, and the Association. Yeah. I'll , we've got a proposed wood here, a centenary wood Oh yes, can I can you all try to as we're getting a bit late. Erm this is a rewrite which I suggest we er refer to the General Purposes Committee, but there is a, a problem in terms of the access to the recreation area and the nature reserve, that's er on the bridge adjoining the ponds right across the sp across the diagonal of Road. The stile is stopped up and, and res erm children particularly are clambering over the bridge in order to use the footpath, which actually does end at the stile, which has been stopped up, erm through the nature reserve. It, it does appear that there, there's problems on, on that corner of the Road bridge with, there could be weakening of that bridge, erm it could be erm disrupted. Also the bank is crumbling where children are climbing over, and we need to do something about it. Lynn? Yes,Chairm er it's a bit of a dilemma really because the area that is being used to, to walk and then clamber over this bridge, is actually within the nature reserve, as you rightly describe it. And what's happening is the children weren't walking from the school Street site to the Road site. Instead of walking around the children's play area, and then down Road and joining the, the Road site footpath, are using that as a foot as a shortcut. And that's why they're sort of clambering over the bridge, in order to get onto the shortcut. And it would seem as though it's a logical thing to unblock a bit of the fence, so they can, instead of clamber over the bridge, just come straight through. However, if you do that, you're going to encourage these hundreds of children who make this crossing between the sites crossing every day, to walk through the er the, the nature reserve. Which will have two effects. One, it will erode because of the the numbers of children and the, the numbers that they walk abreast, it'll erode the grass areas on either side of the nature reserve pathways. They won't stick to the pathway, because they don't do it in the school. And er it's because of er their numbers. Therefore by encouraging more of them to use this route, you'll erode your, your planting in the nature reserve. And secondly, you'll get a greater, obviously a greater amount of litter, because they do eat as they walk across the sites . And they drop their crisp packets and their tins. And they, you know, they're no worse than children anywhere else in the country, and I don't wish to make a big song and dance about it. It's just a fact of modern life when children eat out in the street you get litter. That means all the kids are dope fiends. So I both the, both those disadvantages lead me to think that we ought not to unblock this area. I think that they, you know,i i i i if there is da damage being done to the bridge, then we've got to somehow address that in a different way. I would be reluctant to see this er this fence removed to allow them to use that Sorry? You I've raised this, these points that we've raised when we went and met Donald down at the park, and the school have said they will not erm allow the children to go that way. When there's a school teacher down there, it should happen at all break times and meal times, erm er they, they're not going to be allowed to go down there. M my concern is one of safety. I must be honest, having seen the children leap off that bridge, it's not going to be long before somebody falls and hurts themselves. So I accept the point that, that Lynn made, but I feel that it's a , somebody's eventually going to fall into that water. And we were down there Lynn on Mm. and what were the kids doing? Just leaping over it. They were jumping over. And it's dried up now. Can I just say then that I think either it's got to be blocked completely so they can't jump over the bridge, or it's got to be unblocked. And I'd say it was better to unblock, because the kids all walk over that bridge now, they're eroding away the bank, the . You'd have to fence right along the bridge and completely block it. But the daft thing is really that there is a, an access into the little play area from there. If you don't go through that way to the little play area, you've got to walk all the way round. The other thing is if the school children walk round, and through where they're supposed to go, it still goes past Wide Pond, and they've eroded all the grass where they've made their own little footpaths through, I don't think going that going the other way would make it any different. They're still going through that nature reserve area. And the other thing is that the river along there is full of litter anyway, and it just flows along. I don't think Can I, can I I, I think personally, it would be better to open it up properly. Can I suggest we actually have a look at this in General Purposes? Cos I think that what we will need to do is refer it to General Purposes Committee for and people to go and have a look at it. Erm there are a number of suggestions, one of which is to open it. One of which is not to open it. The other is to put a fence alongside the, the, the river er there, in a similar way to the southern end of the bridge. So people of General P members of the General Purposes Committee, go down and have a look at the bridge, have a look at the southern end, where there is a a wooden plank, which actually prevents this sort of activity, on the southern end, but not on the northern end. So perhaps we can have a look there, and this will appear on the ne and, and I suggest we look at it on the next General Purposes Committee. Last point, Peter? Just before, you know, you make your final decision at the General Purposes, would you please consider the small children on the playground area there please? Because the reason that er stile was blocked off in the first instance was there was a case where a child ran across that road. Now whatever you do by opening up this it's got to be done for safety purposes, please, for the infants. And I think if you're going to open it up, you must consider probably a wicker gate or something s so that a child cannot run onto Road. I think you'll have a fatal accident eventually if you do. Thank you . Can I, can I move on or is this a? I ju just one point to make, that the children can't run out of this area onto, there's already a stile out of the play area, for that path, before you get to the road. It's, it was done that's why did block it up with a in the first instance. But it's about two or three . Yeah, but it did, it has happened it has happened. But I mean But if we're going to co if we're going to open it up, we need to consider the sort of gate, perhaps a kissing gate might be the one to put in, rather than a stile. Shall we defer this to the General Purposes Committee meeting? Thank you. Erm right, number thirteen. get through this by nine o'clock. Er you'll be aware from the letter which was circulated to you by Steve, that we had a significant problem with water leakage down the our pipe, which joins the mains water supply at the memorial, war memorial. After that meter, all of that water usage is our responsibility. And we were using er about a cubic meter every three hours. In other words, it was costing us about a pound an hour in water. So as an emergency, without any budgetary provision, er we decided, erm on consultation with a number of councillors, that the only thing we could do was actually locate the water leak and replace it. But having had some estimates for that, it became inappropriate to, it became more cost effective to replace the entire pipe with a wider diameter pipe. Because you'll know that we have water pi pressure problems on that particular er water line. It doesn't mean to say the water po pressure will be increased at the moment, because the final connection to the fifty mil water main is still the narrow gauge. But what we decided to do was to replace the entire water main erm with erm a double, a double capacity pipeline. And at the same time improve the water supply situation there, by providing some standpipes so that our groundsmen can water a number of the er various facilities down there. And we had an er er an estimate, erm er which was circulated, which we accepted. We've had to increase the cost of that estimate by, for three things. Firstly, we came across electric cables that were only three inches below the surface of the ground. This was clearly significantly dangerous, and so whilst we w had the J C B, J C B down there, we asked the contractor to dig er to remove those electric cables and actually replace them at an appropriate depth. The second, the second point was that while the J C B was down there we er erm in consultation erm the chairman of those committees, we removed the old concrete base which crumbled whilst we were digging the erm the t the trench for the water pipeline, it was actually crumbling away. And so it was actually becoming dangerous at the same time. The, the next point w the, an additional point was, in discussion with the Cathedral Council, the Cathedral Council have always been interested, and the church commissioners, have always been interested in having a water supply to the cemetery. And so we took advantage of the tender and the contractor being in th in the area, to extend the water pipeline from its current location at the football stadi erm er pavilion, through to the cemetery. And install a cattle trough which is, as far as we ho as far as we believe, vandal-proof, in that it'll be a self-filling c er cistern filled cattle trough which the, the erm the, the ball float is actually contained in a erm a metal box so you can't get access to it. We have found the leaks, and we have connected all, we have reconnected all of the er supplies, including a supply to the cathedral field, which has never been billed in the past er because of erm damage to their meter, it's only used twenty seven gallons but twenty seven litres, but whilst I've been here, it's a water meadow from the result of the water that we've been supplying to that particular field. And we've also extended the, the, as a new measure, the water supply along the side of the football and rugby pitches so that Don can water the goalmouths erm of both the goal, of both the football and the rugby pitches, which is a considerable improvement. That increased our tender price significantly as you can imagine. about one thousand pounds. But as a consequence of all that work, we've actually gained an additional five hundred and seventy pounds grant from the church commissioners, from the Scouts and from the Cathedral Council for this new additional work. So we've actually got a bill of three thousand one hundred and four pounds, to replace this water main. It is a replacement, we were losing that money erm because the, the water meter was going round at a pound an hour. But we've increased the capacity of that pipe, so that if we have some more money eventually, we can er replace the final five yards from our meter to the Severn Trent water main er in some future years, to improve the pressure problems down the whole pipeline. So I th I hope that's a full report to you. It's a problem that we had to face, and we had to take it, because otherwise we were going to be faced with an enormous bill, erm for ourselves, because it was down to us. We have found all the leaks, there were about five leaks I think, down that. The major leak erm was at the Scouts' hut, where erm the, the building was actually putting pressure upon the water main, and er causing a leak. Directly into a drain, so we never s that's why we didn't see it, because the water was actually pouring down a drain, so of course we didn't see the water lolling up the waterlogged ground, otherwise we'd have spotted it earlier. So that's I hope a, a r report on the activity there. What will now happen is that er the contractor will regrade the land, erm but we will grass-seed it erm with Don, er our groundsman will look after and maintain that er so that it'll be reinstated er over the next er six months. Do you want retrospective approval? I'm merely seeking that budget commitment. I approve it. Well yes I, no, I would endorse that and, and hopefully perhaps you know the comments that have been made will be picked up by the press. Because I had a number of people who've been on to me talking about the mess on the, on the recreation ground, and asking what it's for, and as soon as you explain why, you know, it's been accepted. But it, it, it caused an initial aggravation, but it's only because people didn't know. And, and if it's in the press . Well, we didn't have a discussion about it because as you can imagine, the, the three weeks that we've, since this problem's arisen before Easter, we'd have actually lost another thousand pounds in terms of water costs. Yeah, I think we should minute erm our appreciation of the action taken by yourself and the clerk in resolving this matter, because we did approve work erm and it became obvious after work was commenced that there was additional work that needed to be got on with and that it was er er obviously going to be a cost-effective exercise to do it there and then, and er you both er canvassed as many councillors as you could at the time, all the committee Chairmen were, were involved, I don't see that you could have done any more in the circumstances. And er I think you ought to be congratulated on the actions taken. Yeah. Mhm. Can we have approval for that er expenditure then? Thank you. I think Peter declare an interest in this one Yes to me. Erm thank you for that. Erm item fourteen, trees for the war memorial recreation ground. We had a number of erm er items on this. We have significant expenditure erm in line on this. We budgeted a thousand pounds, it looks as if we're going to have to spend more on urgent work. We've now had a letter from Simon , as you asked us to get, on the trees and recreation ground, saying that, yes indeed, he says he now points out that there are dangers in the willow tree and also the dead Leylandi erm behind the children's play area, and also some of the dead wood which we've already identified. So we're going to have to proceed with some of this expenditure, probably twice the budgeted b budgeted erm monies. We're going to see if we can actually do all of that work for two thousand pounds rather than the three thousand pounds which we we're Which is ? The one that where the bridge is at the far end? Yes. Yes. Cos that's been in dilap er condition all my life. And if you look at they're all the same. going to do anything, or are suggest that they you know, do the bare nece the bare necessity of work. Rather We've, we've got difficulty here because we've now got letters saying that you know, it's down to us, and that the er tree surgeons er from the County Council believe that they are a danger to a danger to the public. It's a question of safety, it got to be ? Is it the ones? I mean all good trees are being and over the years they all go , don't they? And they they're an ideal habitat for wildlife, and sometimes I think unnecessary. That's my opinion. Yes, but they when th they're in a public park, as these are I think public safety has to take priority over the wildlife consideration. I it's not all of them, there's a one particular one, which is actually causing s concern to the erm to the p p I, I think perhaps what we need to do s is v people who are interested in this work actually speak to Steve as he starts to contract the work out. Erm because the the there are quite detailed reports here which I'm not, not able to go into. We've had a number of quotations and a number of reports here. What I'm saying to you is that, that we actually need to find additional money for this, because this is over our budgeted amount if we are to proceed, and I, the clerk is suggesting to us that we do proceed, because he's concerned on our behalfs. So There is an item late on the agenda which will,i if it's agreed by council, will release a little bit of money that would, we could put perhaps to er towards this thousand pounds. Oh, I'm sorry,appear but er I'd have thought this tree's g er g erm willow trees make cricket bats, and cricket bat manufacturers will purchase willow trees. Only only certain types of willow tree. That's what we call Chairman, don't we have a number er the hold-over or, or balances to cover this expenditure? Yes we do. And that the main problem is those councillors who are concerned about it, and I think that you've made the point that those who are concerned must go and, and speak to the clerk and look at the er specifications detailed specifications before the work is commenced. Yes. Mm. And then not howl and sort of get enraged afterwards because they didn't realize what was happening. I think, I think I'm actually seeking your approval then to spend additional thousand pounds from our balances for this safety work, which we may well be able to top up later in the discussion this evening. John? Seconded that? Agreed? Any against? Item fifteen. Erm we're pleased to announce that we've appointed a new handyman erm er Mr Dennis , who's accepted the appointment. He starts next week. And er he was interviewed by the Appointments Committee, and erm I think he'll be a very good appointment. He was interviewed as you know by the clerk, by our groundsman, and a councillor. So thank you very much er for your work on that, and I think you made a good appointment. So . Does he live in Southwell? Yes, he lives at . Is he a young man? Er University graduate? A well, a well-qualified candidate Yes. Yeah. Can I move on to item number sixteen, the Cheskevod's trading charter. On your table er you were given a copy of the draft, the English draft of the charter er which I've had a look at, it was given to me by the er Trading Association, it seems to me to be quite a sensible charter, and er I propose that we write to the Association saying this is very good and can we get it In copperplate? Er we're going to er get it drafted up and er we have some money in the, we have some money in our budget, for a gift, and it seems to me appropriate erm that the gift that we might make to Cheskevod is the s trading charter which we can get for the money that we've budgeted er written by a calligrapher who I've already contacted, who said that they can do it erm well, for that sort of price, in both English and Czech. That's How much ? I think it's a hundred Hundred and fifty. hundred and fifty pounds. But we can actually get it framed and I mean we'll get it for well under that. So you're proposing that from the chair? I'm proposing that we accept this er trading charter draft, and that the Parish Council erm looks to provide once the Czech version as being er provided for us from Czechoslovakia er from the Czech Republic rather, that erm we'll accept. And it will be ready for the for the visit in May? It will be ready for the visit in May. Oh lovely. Agreed. Agreed? Agreed. Agreed. Thank you. Th I mean there is th you have a charter here as well presumably? We have two copies of the charter. That's right. Alright. Mm. But the er but the one's currently hanging up in the library. version. Er item number seventeen. This really refers back and I think the time refers back to the discussion that we had under the er liaison conference. In order to help us I think in our discussions, it seems to me that, I think we ought to write formally to the County Council and to the District Council actually asking them for more details of their consideration for what they intend to do about parishes. Now we've been to these meetings, and there's a lot of airy-fairy words about yes we support parishes. I think in order to support our our response to the Royal Commission, which is imminent, the County Council and the District Council must now have had firm ideas on what they intend to do with parishes. So what I'm proposing is that we write to er Mick and erm Richard , asking what powers and responsibilities that they propose at the moment to devolve to Southwell. Seconded. Well hope to have that typed by next meeting. Any against that? No. Number eighteen. Peter do you want to talk about this one? Yes I think He knows nothing about it. Same with Finance Committee. Steve? As I mentioned previously, my, my accountant said, drop this, because it's going to put me in all sorts of problems with my taxation and things. So I would ask nicely that I have petty cash of say thirty pounds, which out of I would buy, or pay the cleaners' wages, and any minor expenses that come my way. It would be an interest account? It would be an interest account. Er thirty pound maximum, I would keep the money at home, so there's no risk, risk to any money of being left in the office erm and I would be obviously responsible of returning thirty pounds. And the bills will come anyway in the normal way to, to, to the , it's got pushed into the dike, and it's gone down afew , it's got pushed into the dike, and it's gone down afew y thirty pounds maximum are we agreed? Yeah. Thank you. Move on to the refurbishment of the toilet block. Now you'll have heard that we painted the toilet block, and it does look very smart. We haven't opened the toilet block as yet, because if you remember that the Recreation Ground Committee, we're opening it in the er after the school has started and shutting it before the school ends, so that we don't have the problems of vandalism which we've had in the past, hopefully. So we'll o er Don, our groundsman, has agreed to it erm during the daytime. Steve? If, if you er go down and visit the toilet block you will see above the doors there are a number of bricks that have come loose on both sides. This is due to the fact that no lintel was placed in there when the building was erected. And there's actually cracks appearing Bulging. bulging, yeah. I'm very concerned that if we don't get some urgent remedial action to do this brickwork, that we're gong to have a major problem down there. Also, the roof is leaking in several places, there are cracks appearing on the parapet, which need, even to my eyes, need to be filled. Erm, what I've done is I've asked for quotes from three companies er to see how much work, how much it'll cost us to take this action. I feel that we must take it almost immediately, because if those bricks do go, we're going to have a major . I think you'll find that all on the back side, and those bricks will be into the lintel at the back. tied it What they just sort of? Yeah. Yeah. What, what'd happened is that there's a concrete span right at the back, and they've the inner course off it, but the external bit built off the door frame. Botched job,. It is yes It sounds like it. No that's how all places was built up until about nineteen seventy eight. Oh well. Well the door frame, I mean the bricks'll be alright, but they'll maybe just t sag down, and that, that, that's what's happened, the door frame has, has taken the weight, it's sagged, but is also bulging, In in particular the gents' side. But in the sixties and seventies, that's where all the kids used to jump up onto the flat roof, that was the area where they jumped up, so this could be a result of what has happened from there, I mean that's why the you weren't one of them were you? job to . What you used to do, you see, years ago, was turn the off the lights inside the toilets, and go in there at night, and sleep. Oh! Who did? Ooh! Kids. And that's why we've got So it's not a new thing this. lintel this side of the toilets now, It's not a new phenomenon. metal bricks, which stops the kids getting in. And that's what they did, they used to with that the steps,the brickwork . Fifty percent We, we do have some, we do have some grant applications on, on this, because of it, it, it being public toilet, and also improving the environment, Mm. including one from British Telecom, which it seems to be being done quite well, so it'll be improving the environment week. And it seems to me that it was an improvement of the environment to have some decent public toilets. Very good. Just one point, it's rather a shame they can't be open at weekends? Because there are quite a lot of adults in the park with younger children during the weekend. And I don't think there'd be a problem at four o'clock vandalizing as such I mean we did I think that's maybe the Recreation Ground Committee, who's really looking after this on, on our behalf could actually investigate, You'd still have the problem of small children . Yes. A and also that the erm signpost We can't have them till this work's done No. We have the problem though of getting them Donald said he wasn't prepared to . Oh well perhaps the new handyman was more Y what about the possibilities eventually? I mean the chaps in the tennis club are saying put it down. Erm because it's an eyesore. What about having some sort of one of these superloos or some vandal-proof toilet there, you know if er people actually pay to go in it, it wouldn't be so bad. Well I know Those cost ninety thousand pounds. Shall we get a grant? for for . Can we suggest that the Recreation Ground look at the opening of the toilets, and ask them to, to consider this, at their next meeting? Erm but we do need an approval to go out and for quotations and sorry tenders on this, on this work, which is actually urgent. Erm Well can, can the clerk er ask about getting three tenders, and take the lowest and get on with the job? Yes. I think actually it would be a good idea if I met Steve we er did a er a list of what wants doing, exactly what wants doing. Yes, it really A full specification. Good idea. But with regard to the erm the of it, you need more than ninety thousand So there are three things that we've talked about then. An i an immediate going out to work on this re remedying the brickwork problem, which is getting, the cracking is significant and, and potentially dangerous at the moment, the full refurbishment of the block, which the grant applications are in for, and the opening er and asking the Recreation Ground Committee to r reexamine the opening of the toilets. Those three items. Are we agreed on those? Yeah. Thank you. Erm footway repairs in Southwell. Yes, Steve? Er this item was on the last agenda. I got a letter from Richard , who's the area manager of Notts County Council, offering us er well let me read it to you, it says,thank you for your letter of twenty sixth of March, and comments therein. I shall be pleased to meet you and your councillors to discuss and inspect any problem areas. May I suggest one of the following . He's given me three dates when he'd be delighted to meet us erm Friday the thirtieth of April, four of May or fifth of May, but other dates a as necessary. Erm then he's very willing to go round with us. Which, which one of those dates is What, what days are they? Friday, the Tuesday, Wednesday. Friday the thirtieth of April, Tuesday the fourth of May or Wednesday the fifth of May. I can do any of those. Yeah Is, is it to walk round? Yes, it's to walk round Peter, you were were you available at any of those times? I shall work in, because I mean I'm the one who's been pushing to get them on this. I mean I would make sure I'm there, cos I'm disgusted with the pavements in Southwell. So it's the pavements? It's the pavements. Pave Yes. pavement repairs. Then We can't get them done John cos of cable television. Can we It's a feeble excuse as far as I'm concerned, and we can't wait long you know, Steve will then er arrange one of the days the most convenient to himself and Mr , and since Lynn and Peter are able to accommodate eith any of those three dates, we'll circulate to other councillors er if anybody else is interested in commenting or providing information. Is that agreed? Mhm. Thank you. Perhaps we could do that. Parking problems, Road, Southwell. We've had a reply from the County Council erm we have, we have had erm erm a reply, they will be doing er a survey on Road to see if it i wants inclusion. They say that the stop signs, the visibility isn't erm again, he's going to s to erm er he says that the stop signs, the visibility isn't bad enough, that the, the difficulties in visibility aren't bad enough, but he's going to reexamine that particular situation. He doesn't think that widening the carriageway on the corner of Road and Road will be very sensible, but that wasn't what we were suggesting, we were suggesting I think on er Avenue rather than so we'll have to write back and tell him. I think one of the residents . Residents did. Yes. So he is actually taking some action, and he will come back to us fairly soon he said erm about the result of his survey, whether or not there'll be a residents' scheme down there. I've no further information on that Could we just er by following that up Chairman, suggest that they, that they look at p the provision of double yellow lines around the kerb, around those kerbs that go from lower Road into Road, because it's on that corner that you get the, the van parked which is causing the visibility problems. Alright, of course It's not on the road. What? The van. double yellow lines around that kerb, around the corner, would actually stop that happening. Right so we'll been on that wasteland. But I always thought it was illegal to park within fifteen yards of a corner anyway. And I can't understand why the police don't shift these vehicles. cos they're clearly dangerous, and erm the police have the powers to remove any vehicle if they think it's causing an obstruction, no matter where it is. I know of similar things happening in , that are equally bad if not worse, and nobody seems to be able to get any action at all, out of police, District Council, or, so Well why I don't know,. Well, I mean at least Mr 's coming out, and we'll ask Steve to raise those very points with him, and I'll also raise it with Mr, the inspector when I see the inspector about that particular issue. I mean I always thought if you were parked too close to it, they take your number and next thing you know, you get a, a, a summons come through the post. I should think it's within sight of the police station anyway, I should think. I will raise that with erm . Shall I, I shall have to apologize to the council, cos I mean I did do the, the survey of the erm residents and of course I had flu last month, I do apologize, I didn't actually manage to get that done. But if you still want me to do it I will do it. I think it would be probably worthwhile erm talking to the residents down there, and actually explaining that th what's happening to them. It's all their cars, isn't it? Yeah. Yes . worth it, because full of cars. Well, they may well do. But at least we're taking some action and finding out what they want, which is part of the problem. Has the problem increased since the road through 's been reopened? Well that that may be something which we ma will actually find out when we It should have done. Can we move on then to erm purchase of the sports pitches. You'll be aware that the planning application is in, there are some grant applications in with two er bodies, erm the Newbury and Sherwood District Council, and the Foundation for Sports and Arts. Er, we haven't heard from any of those. The committee meet the sub the committee has not met yet, because there hasn't been any action, and we won't be meeting until we get some movement from any of those three agencies who'll be replying to us. May I ask, Chairman, cos I missed the last meeting, what, what the, the subcommittee, is that the s an ad hoc subcommittee? Yes, it is. Yes, it is. We agreed to set it up at the last meeting. So what, what stage are we at? Are we still investigatory stage, or have we taken a policy decision that we will purchase this ground?unclear at the moment, isn't it? Well, we have de delegated powers to the subcommittee, which consists of myself, Roger, Lynn, John and Steve er Steve . We're putting some money away for e expenses, we've taken up the option to purchase, we've put in a planning application for change of use, we investigated possible grant applications, we're investigating future expenditure and income generation, and then we report back to this committee once . For the decision. For the Statement. We hadn't We want to erm er found out, or we make a decid That's right. a decision We hadn't finally whether or not to buy. We had not decided to purchase. That's right. Right. We have taken an option to purchase at the at the cost as agreed, which was the problem last time whilst we get planning applications, which is currently in. The grant applications are in, and when we've got all that information er then subcommittee will erm bring all those reports together, and present a report to the full council. John? ? Yes, we would do that. Yes. An agreement, yes. But what I haven't You're going for that? We well, that doesn't commit us to anything, and doesn't cost any, cost any money, so that application is in, I believe, isn't it? Well I haven't done it yet. Cos gone to the Sports Foundation. Right. Yes. Well, we, we may not actually need to go to the P W L B for money, because of the, because of the grant, we may actually get a hundred percent grant aid for this, and if we get a hundred perce hundred percent grant aid, we won't need to. But that's i that's what the subcommittee will actually consider, once we've actually er got some replies from these three agencies. Are there any questions on the sports pitches? Er, right, let's move on to 's recreation ground, purchase of land. You will remember that the, the District Council offered to sell the land for four thousand pounds, and I think Steve's got a report. Well, I phoned them up, and I'd been badgering them, and they told me to wait for a further communication. So when I didn't receive any further communication, I've gone back to them and asked them whether they would be interested in reducing the price, cos we consider it to be too high for that one acre of land. Erm they say they would not be willing to change their valuation, because that was the valuation er come to by the District Values Office from , so they are not willing to, to come down in price. Erm my recommendation at that price would be to say to you, don't buy, not at four thousand pounds, when your rent is one hundred pounds a year. That's right. It would be erm I, I feel we should go back to them. There is a rent review due next year, and I think they will be quite likely to ask you for additional rent,erm amount of rent per annum to you. But even saying that, if they doubled it to two hundred pounds, it's a lot of years before we reach four thousand pounds. Chairman, if they ask for er er additional rent, all we have to say is no, you maintain it as a, as a recreation ground, erm you know and then it passes back to them. Er I, I'm beginning to find the attitude of the District Council on this not, not comprehendible. Because we are actually spending a hundred pounds, and refurbishing it, when it's ac which it could therefore be their, their entire responsibility. Now I'm minded at the moment to say, look, why should we pay a hundred pounds and pay all the, all the, all the refurbishment of that site, because they won't be able to develop it, there's no, there's no access to that land. You know there's no access to that land, so er why, why are they selling a at that price? So I d I am very much minded not to pursue the option of purchase. We've actually leased that land for this year, and wait and see what happens. Roger? Yes, er er I mean I agree with you Chairman entirely, I mean the arguments have been made before and I will just say them again, that I think the District Council are quite remiss er in asking for this sum of money, particularly in view of the reason that the, the, the field is there, which is for the recreation of the people who live in the estate, and the back end of Southwell, and it always has been, er and that is a responsibility that has been taken on by this Parish Council, and if, if, if they feel that they, they wish to persist in asking an unreasonable price, and let's face it, the District Council is in a position to look at this situation and say, the Parish Council is doing an excellent job, we will sell them this land for a figure that they can afford. If we are going to do the fencing, er and everything else, then may we then submit the bills for that work to the District Council? And ask them to take that on board, because I don't really see why we should be expected to take on both factors. So I would suggest that. I would have thought that we could request the fenc the fencing and tell them our plans for the fencing and not lose anything by asking for them to Yeah. make some . The position yeah, it's as Roger said, and I think we've got to the stage now where we've shown good faith, we've had that land put in good order, and we can now I think quite justifi justifiably say, we've done enough, if you're not prepared to help any more, it's over to you. Cos at this point in time, we would have left that piece of ground in excellent condition. It sticks in my throat that you know we've had to pay it but, from the point of view of the residents, we've done the right thing by letting it. But now we can quite justifiably say, that land was handed over to you in excellent condition. And if they fail to keep it up, it's not our, not our responsibility any longer. I'm . we just go o go on erm doing their job for them, and, and paying out of our own pockets. I don't think this is the time to discuss what we're going to do in the future, we've actually got on the table at the moment a proposal to purchase that land. What Steve is saying r recommending to you is that we don't take up that purchase this year, which is in our budget. Peter? the Boy Scouts can on there for a number of years, back to the fifties, there've been excellent tenants of that piece of land. And when we bear in mind Chairman that piece of land in the first instance was given to the Southwell D C by a Southwell resident. It's now been handed over to the District Council I think they should be looking at it as a . That's what I think we should be asking for. Yes. But it strikes John , cos John wa William gave him that, So they nineteen forty nine. They want housing value for it, don't they? And they say the District Valuer's valued it at that, and they, and they, they would be failing in their responsibility to maybe try Oh! to realize that money. Well we're not going to give it to them. They've done very well out of that parcel of land that was given. All the land to build those homes on, they was given the land for that re recreation ground, and I believe they should hand that back to the parish and the people. Yeah, well we agree with you Peter, but they won't do it. Yeah, but it's what they The only thing on the table at the moment is whether we pursue the option to purchase this year. No, I propose we don't. I second that. we weren't aware of that, were we? Very clearly then, we've got a proposal that we don't pursue that option, which we've paid the len rent this year, we've paid the lease this year, so we can't backtrack on that, but maybe that'll come up for future discussion. So we have a proposal that we don't pursue that option to purchase. John? Just want a final point? Well just, just a final point, would it be worthwhile er informing the District Council of the history of the site, Chairman, because they may not be aware, as the, as the new owners of the site, they took it over from the Southwell District Council on reorganization. So they may not be aware of its history. A tract er of land was in fact given, and this piece of recreational land was Well I think the chairman of the committee s is aware, because he's been, he's been told. But Has he? Yes, I think so. So we have an o we have a, a dis we have a proposal then not to proceed with the purchase of that land this year. Anybody in favour? Those against? Could I make an amendment? Well, it's only in the interests of the council. Er new proposal. Well I make a proposal that we also give them notice that at the end of this year, we will not be prepared to continue the lease on the current licence. Mhm. No I think that we should wait and see what we're being offered to us cos there's a lot of er you know there's no, there's no need to sort of rush at the , I think we wait and see what they're going to offer us in er whenever it is that it comes up for renewal. And then we make all these It's no good to them, this land if sold in the on this particular piece of land, they've sold all the viable access off to the residents of the haven't they?so there, there's no right of way really for them to get down there, and it should be cheap. Right, well we that, that proposal, is there a seconder for that proposal? No. So we'll, we'll come back to that issue later, because we'll have to approve whether we rent the land i in future years anyway, it does come up. Can I move on to bridge repair of Road. We've already referred t I've already referred to a bit of this, in my er discussion with regard to the access to the er nature reserve. There is a problem on the, on that, that bridge repair, which is the, which is the wooden plank er which a prevents access to the side of the, of the dike. Can I suggest that those members of the General Purposes Committee who are going to look at that area anyway, also have a look at the me the problems of, of this bank side, which is actually collapsing, er due to the weight of, of people. I think that's the problem there. So could we defer that to General Purposes as well? And while th they're down there, can they put a co re-bend that cornerstone, we used to have a cornerstone , it's got pushed into the dike, and it's gone down a few yards This is what we're talking about as well, it's Yeah. So there's a, there's a job for General Purposes possibly on that on the Bridge. Can we defer it to General Purposes? Thank you. Erm maintenance of the Road football pitch, we've had some complaints er on the er Road football pitch which relate to the er caravan access, erm caravan use, we've also had some er comments from the Pub, saying that they actually appreciate the caravans being in the area because of the increased trade. So er can I suggest that we actually ask the the Recreation Ground Committee to look at these problems over the er I don't think there are any significant problems actually after the, after the Easter weekend fortunately, but just to have er in reply to the city football club, because they are concerned, and have been I have to say for many years, so it's not unusual. the fact that, that we the Parish Council maintain that pitch, Yes. and yet the revenue from the caravans goes to District Council. It's er Are you Here, sign the minutes of the the last meeting and the special meeting for the, the special meeting thing but it doesn't matter. And er are there any apologies? Yes, Celia and John . John who? and I Ah yes! Yes! And er they got , right. And him? Erm one of those er that I've got two er, points to make, one is to, to, there's a recording somewhere going on er er it's erm not anything really to do with er us, but we have agreed or someone's agreed on our behalf but er the person can do the recordings but it's er of an educational nature to er help students with their language, but er we shall be completely anonymous so if Is that rough language ? so we'll er just erm behave yourselves this evening! And er and speak coherently and erm and and then forget that er, anyone's here. That's the first one, the second er point is, that we have on our agenda on eleven D er, the Three Hills re er, redevelopment and er we have er the er association here to erm to make a presentation. I wondered if you'd agree with me that we , if we do that first and so then we can get on with our business afterwards. Would that, I hope that will that er, you will agree to that, because we don't want people hanging around waiting for us to go through all our items so I hope you'll agree with that. Yeah. Yes. You know I suggest Make it, just a minute er er Bill. Simon. Thank you . Could you ask who, that is making the recording? Are we allowed to know who who's making the recordings? It's Longmans. They're doing it for a dictionary for erm sch for students. So are getting his copyright are they ? Yeah, but is, is it, if it's for commercial er, enterprise? Is it a well I suppose they're not going to make a loss out of it! But I don't they'll make a erm they won't make a su , a surplus, I don't like the word profit so I'll say surplus out of this er little gathering here tonight. I don't think that it's all, all that er important. When you're in public life you have to put up with er cameras and er things going erm around so and we're going to be er, completely anonymous in er that, so I think Simon's suggesting that we might benefit in terms of. Well erm er, well yes of course, I didn't think of that. I never think of er you know, commercial things, I'm just thinking of we , well providing a service, but then Oh yeah. we don't all work on the clone do we? However, coming back to er Bill wanted to say something. Same question, I just wondered who it was that was all. Oh! Right! Erm we can er now er get on with the er Three Hills er er redevelopment. Does any of the officers want to say anything Yes I would. Er Paul? Do you want Yes, thanks Joan. Er, the reports on Three Hills redevelopment er, next phase starts on page a hundred. Erm and includes an appendix one, the proposals from Moat Housing Society with erm Nick from Moat and some of his colleagues are going to er, run through a bit later. Erm, also we will see,u up here er, displays erm of the proposals. Erm, these are the same displays which were shown to er the tenants meeting public at Three Hills. Or in anyway, can't be made at the meeting. Erm we both feel you've had a chance in detail and they'd been quite blank in design. Er, just to take you quickly through er the first part of the report and then hand over to Moat. Erm as part of the agreement on the demolition of the four remaining blocks of Three Hills erm Moat er became our partners for the rest of our development of Three Hills. As you were aware, they had been involved in Three Hills in er developing Ayletts Field and successfully with us on our our most recent one. This scheme has almost been seen as our joint number one priority in terms of social housing projects along with, obviously, getting social housing on to er, Church Langley. We are we are very close now to completing the final lease agreement with Moat erm as we're not quite there yet I'm I'm gonna be suggesting if it's possible to er, amend er one of the recommendations er, recommendation B, er, to take note of the facts that we quite er, finalised the agreement yet erm I wanted to try and get in line with the er, programme for the recommendation which came out of Great Parndon Neighbourhood Committee. And I think it should read erm as it does, but without the final full stop it will then go on er, when in a form satisfactory to Council's Legal Officers. There is a separate paper which has been circulated as well is the comments on on financial liability of the scheme which you should have as well. Erm, as I've said there is a display there and Moat are here to ask ask ask as many questions obviously as you'd like and hopefully they'll be able to clear up any er, issues on the . Erm this has been to Great Parndon Committee so it's been through the neighbourhoods er, community cycle and there has been an exhibition following that committee on Three Hills, which was very well attended by by tenants and residents and main feelings coming out of that was that erm the residents were keen for this to happen, certainly wanted something to happen erm er, on the estate particularly demolition of the four empty blocks. At the Great Parndon Neighbourhood Committee members requested that our building control service being used er, the developers throughout the scheme, and that has been taken on board and Moat are perfectly happy for that to happen. There is one further complication which has arisen, and that is, that we er, need to apply have applied for a high waste er, the roads on the estate are, in fact, adopted erm so we do need to get that through. Erm fi , finally what I say on, is, that we do need er, some firm indication this evening erm in order to enable Moat Housing Society to draw down the housing association grant for the housing corporation erm and to enable us, obviously to sign a er, the legal agreement with them. Perhaps it's best if I hand over now to Nick to run through the proposals there are some amendments to the one that you had as appendix one erm I don't think any of them are too substantial. Perhaps if I just quickly point out the main ones erm they have been amended in er, a later version of the document. Er, I think the main ones really, are on page one o six the final two lines of the first paragraph which says the two vacant blocks now really, there's four it should just read,and does now read the demolition of the vacant blocks . On page one o eight paragraph two point two er,the society proposals of the er, in accordance with the objectives we've taken out overall, it wants to be clear that it must mean it's in total, the objectives. Page one o nine the second paragraph then we've taken out erm first from first priority, so it should read in agreement with Harlow to place a notice through the scheme as it's priority with the housing fund in the future years as required . And, the next paragraph down we've taken out best now, so it'll read erm the legal technicality we will substitute reasonable, which er erm has a al altogether different meaning to term. Which paragraph is that, Paul? On this one? That's paragraph three, on page one o nine Oh yes. first line. Mm. Finally on page one one four the anticipated start and completion dates are different. It should be spring nineteen ninety five to spring nineteen ninety six. Okay, with that, I'll le I'll hand over to Nick to take you through the their present proposals.. If you don't mind I'll stand up cos I'm gonna have to shoot over there to the plans in some stage in the, in the presentation. I'm Nick and I'm the development director for Moat, responsible for all of our new development activities and I have with me tonight Sally our assistant development manager for Essex, who'll be responsible for this project and also two of our consultants dealing with the scheme, Alan from Anglian Design who are acting as architects on the scheme and Howard from Space, who have been acting as our employer's agent and consultant and will administer the building contract for, for all the phases of this, this project. If I give you some background to, to Moat and to the project itself,an and how we're gonna approach the scheme I'll then hand over to Alan who will talk about the design issues and the master plan and we'll price the Three Hills and how they'll they can meet that subjective. Moat put considerable store in this scheme at Three Hills as the the next stage of our partnership er with the Council and erm we are committed to doing the scheme in accordance with your overall master plan that you've adopted for the Three Hills area er our proposals will com complete the re-development of the vacant sites at Three Hills providing a further a hundred and nine properties for for social housing both for rent and for low cost home ownership. The scheme will meet the local needs of the area those needs being identified by the district council. If I say a little bit about Moat er, we are a registered housing association who are obviously monitored by the housing corporation responsible to a committee of management. Er, we've been going for twenty six years er, and we now manage around about three thousand properties and are building er and selling around about seven hundred properties a year for, for rent and low cost home ownership. Er, we've been working in Harlow for a couple of years now and as you may know, we as Paul said, finished the first phase of Three Hills which is the Ayletts Field scheme which provided sixty six properties for a low cost home ownership and two special needs properties and we'll also be starting in the next couple of months er, on providing low cost home ownership in Church Langley erm it's funded by yo , yourselves. We currently have a small office in Harlow, staffed by full-time member er, and we'll be opening in late November er, an of , a fully staffing housing management office er, with with three members of staff, it'll be located in the town centre. We're committed to Harlow er, as an area we put considerable resources of our own into the first phase of er, the Three Hills and you'll hear tonight we'll be putting in a conditional er, two hundred thousand odd into into this phase from our own reserves. As I said, our proposals fulfil commitment to er, the Three Hills area and the overall master plan. The hundred and nine properties that we will provide will be split between seventy one er, rented units some of which again, will be for special needs and thirty eight low cost home ownership units. These will be shared ownership properties whereby the purchaser will buy a percentage usually forty to fifty percent but then pay a rent on the remainder and they will er, be able to staircase to buy further parties into an outright ownership. So again, it's a low cost option for people to to to get their own housing. We've currently been allocated just over one point three million from the housing corporation which represents about forty one percent of the money that we need to do the scheme. We need two million pounds more from the corporation er, and obviously we will be making that our first priority for investing into Essex er, and to obviously erm as Paul said er you're prepared to make that a priority as well and through the housing corporation. Our consultants for the project will be for, for all three phases er,Leonard Space Partnership an and Anglian Design who were involved in the initial master planning of of the er Three Hills area so we feel that gives continuity er to to the overall planning of the scheme. We're also committed to tenant participation and er we've done a couple of exercises already on the scheme and we've secured some funding from the housing corporation to employ Anglian Design on our behalf with the the housing association er, to involve the tenants as fully as possible in the er, development process. The properties that we're building will be available er, the initial lettings a and sales will be one hundred percent er, to council nominees subsequent lettings and nominations will be at seventy one percent which is the maximum level that we can agree under the housing corporation rules. Er, however we have agreed, and we're perfectly happy er, to have an undertaking which, obviously you can't enter into within the a, a legal document cos we wouldn't qualify for a corporation grant to make the remaining twenty five percent available to the council as well. You're the statutory housing authority you identify the people in the greatest housing need our aim is to house people in the greatest need so, you identify the the tenants. In return for that you're providing a to, to the society. We will be entering into a legal agreement with the er, the council to basically erm, set the criteria for the scheme this will establish the mix and the tenure er of the, of the er the scheme and to ensure that it it adheres to the, to the master plan. And we've written into our arrangements with any contractor, in the tender documentation that they have to adhere to the er requirements of the master plan. The development agreement requires that we complete the scheme by the thirty first of March nineteen ninety seven er obviously subjective to your support and funding i in the corporation. Er, if not, then we return er the the elements of the site we've now developed to yourselves er,and we get reimbursement for the cost that we've incurred in the demolition of the blocks. The legal agreement requires us to demolish er the the the blocks that are on the site er and this will cost approximately, including interest etcetera over two hundred thousand pounds to the society er so obviously it's a a reasonably substantial commitment from ourselves tying up our own our resources in in Three Hills. In return for us putting that money into the scheme er straight away er as Paul said the council will be agreeing to, to make us priority for handling corporation funding and if that's not successful er to use your reasonable endeavours to try and find the remainder of the scheme yourselves. As I said, we've already got forty one percent of the the the main funding required er, for the project and er we're relatively erm confident that with our own money going in and yourself putting the er the loan in for the nothing er that a our bids are gonna be successful in future years. If I just nip round to the drawings I'll just give you an indication of of what exactly we're, we're doing. This development here is the first phase called Ayletts Field which we've already completed, the sixty eight units for er, rent and shared ownership. We've got funding already from the housing corporation to do twenty four category one sheltered flats on this part of the site and we'll looking to start that in late er Novem November nineteen ninety two, this year. We've got all the approvals we now need from the corporation er and the tenders are out and erm we're awaiting their return. The next phase will be er this phase, site three er, which we will be providing twenty one er, flats to rent as your nominees er three units for the special needs and for those like I told you, it's about twenty four rented to nominees we've had the funding for that pre-allocated by the housing corporation so they are er, committed to, to funding that. And we anticipate starting that scheme er in spring nineteen ninety four latest and the completion is nineteen ninety five. The balance of this site we'll be doing, as I say, twenty five shared ownership properties and that's subject to a bid er, in for the next financial year er which again is obviously subject to, to your support, but as I said, it will be our first priority. We then move over to the er jus , what is called site two and, on that we'll be doing another twenty one houses for rent to your your nominees with a further two units for special needs and the balance of the site can be made er available for shared ownership, which is another thirteen properties and the timetable for that is set to follow on after this site's been completed so that's why the phase has been er, changed to nineteen ninety five in your reports. So I think Alan can talk in a bit more detail about the design of the master plan issues and then be perfectly happy to take any questions you may have. Thank you. I think it might help if I stand near the drawings . I thought that I was gonna have to er, talk about phasing but I think that he's dealt with that quite adequately but I certainly will be happy answer any questions afterwards if if there are any. Erm before we started this drawing which so if I co , perhaps if I stand here everyone will be able to see which is probably fairly familiar and in, in most respects it goes back about six years to the first master plan that was produced for the estate erm to provide a combination of regeneration and new build. and in essence it's been our, our prior aim to keep to that which was agreed by the council back in nineteen eighty six. Er, in a number of ways I think everybody will agree that it's been improved by er the er demolition of the terrace blocks, rather than refurbishment and the opportunity has been taken to create erm perhaps a a more comfortable relationship between bungalows that are about to be refurbished and the new houses, because the new houses are designed in such a way as to keep the scale down so whereas the terraced blocks were anything up to four storey, the new houses will only be two storey and in a number of cases they will they will be a relatively low two storey so that erm I will just point out on the front elevations that the roof comes down fairly low relative to the first floor windows so that it's not too much above the, the roofs on the bungalows, we're not talking about compromising people's heads on the internal though! So, the other things that had erm we've endeavoured to incorporate is to try and not divide the estate, one of the one of the aims of the master plan has been to seen to integrate bungalows and any new housing together and in a number of respects the demolition of the terraced blocks and the er er, putting back of more conventional two storey housing has allowed us to do this by rather than having a access road running the whole length of the estate and similarly the that are running past the length of the estate away from the houses we've we've put the houses where the road is and the road where the house, where the terraced blocks were, erm to form more of a conventional street scape so that people can look out on their cars and that we, you actually got the new houses facing the existing ones. Erm generally, the er design of the houses compliments those which have already been built at the er, Southern Way and the side of the Ayletts Field, and the extension to Fern Hill er, in terms of their materials in terms of the landscaping, and they will er, as close as it's possible to do match the refurbished bungalows in terms of including features such as block paving and erm car ports. I think one point that erm, I wasn't sure if you were gonna mention it, is that the proposals do actually encompass the allowance for additional parking for erm, the residents and proportion of garaging as well, and that's something that Moat are including within the er, within their construction contracts. Erm so in in broad terms the master plan is is unchanged in concept but we think improved in detail the is the other thing at each end erm represents on the left hand side er, what is currently Honey Hill I believe the name may be changed in due course erm and those behind me here are the houses on the Fern Hill side and then, although some of you will have difficulty seeing it at the moment, at the bottom there are detailed drawings showing the internal arrangement of the houses and flats and, and detailed drawings of the elevations with dimensions, so one can have a have a bit of a feel for the the sort of space standards that we've aimed at, but there are in fact, furniture plans shown on the drawings. Erm Nick has obviously talked about the er, the phasing of the estate erm, just to point out that the reason for it, perhaps seeming a bit of long drawn out er affair, it's, it's a, a minimum time as far as erm, all the people who have been negotiating feel it's achievable in if we are to make sure that the estate doesn't remain a building site as as a as a total entity fo , at any time, so this site here will not commence until this site is completed so that there will be some er, rest bite for the bungalow residents and of course, somewhere to park their cars in the in the interim. Erm I think that in in broad terms that covers the architectural aspects we we have of course, as er, Paul mentioned at the beginning erm talked the these designs through with the Clark Hill, Honey Hill and Fern Hill Resident's Association and they have erm been, been shown the exhibition on the estate and er we believe that they've been well received towards seeing what the co , the confirmation on that . Erm, but certainly we we're, we're happy to answer any, any questions if there are any. Thank you. Right, er, members, any questions to the speakers? Yes, Bill? I'd just like to ask er if it's not to start on the er phase three before the spring of ninety five, it seems a long time two and half years time before they a , they make a start! Would it not be possible to make an earlier start in view of the great need for a for homes, it seems a long time to wait? Er, for the, for the phase three, which is the one that we've got, the one's that are rented already the, the money doesn't actually become available until er that date, spring ninety four. We're currently negotiating with the er the housing corporation to bring it forward, we wanna bring it forward er and we're, we're asking them if we could do that. We will also be taking a decision ourselves er, as to the the tender part of it as well, because obviously we could take advantage of the cheaper prices now to to do it. As I said, spring ninety four is gonna be the latest date for the site we want to start that phase as early as possible so that we can then get onto to the other phase as early as possible because we obviously don't particularly want to wait until nineteen ninety five ninety six to, to finish the whole thing. Er, so our intention is to do as quickly as we can. Okay Bill? Any body else, Ann? May I ask a question on the this er, the speaker said er erm that it will be down so that they on er er or no particular help on his accordance but o on these here,o on the ones this isn't the case. Yes i , on, on the side which we believe er matters, if you like, the side that faces the er, the road, and faces the bungalows we we've sought to achieve that erm, on the rear elevations it's perhaps a less important issue so looking at any of the erm large coloured elevated sheets the upper drawing represents the street side, the side that faces the bungalows and the side where scale issue becomes er, more important and the lower drawing erm where there's er an eaves and gutter above the first is are actually the the back garden side that erm will be seen perhaps less. Do you know how many two bedroomed one of the others. Also, are, are this lot, are on this Speak up! lot er pulled down? it's a but is there a particular one? Er Yes, yes. this one here is it? Is this, is this it? That one here That one is the same both sides but I think that Yeah. More of them. These ones Yeah. that's don't know this one. that particular on there actually only occurs the once, it's in this position is er, a cluster of four houses together that erm is, if you like, as a, as a signature at the end of this particular So this one, this er, access road. is the main design? Tha , that is the one that occurs the most frequently, yes by, by far. Thank you very much. Okay? Yes, Bill? On this question of priorities here I understand that if we go along with local presses,to the housing corporation that this is a priority and then they, they can see to that make the money available when can we go along again with another priorities? Erm really it's an issue about the amount, what little amount of hag that housing association grants are a comes into Harlow via the housing corporation we don't have a lot to play with on any . Since I've been involved in er, in the partnerships we've always tried to have a joint number one with Three Hills and Church Langley as I explained before and it's always been a very difficult balancing act you know, to keep both going along. I'm sure you will agree that there'd be nothing worse than to start into a erm er, regeneration idea on an estate and then have a a year or two's hiatus where nothing can happen because we're er pushing the hag funding elsewhere in the town. Erm by saying it's a priority we're not saying it's our only priority, we have a number of priorities and it's it's up to us to in debate with the housing corporation er, to come to the best agreements for Harlow. Jim? Anybody else want yes Tony? we'll be able use where are they going to go? Right Well garages the there are already some here and here, both in here and here that have been built as part of Ayletts Field. Are they entangled with the, the house, are they? No, the the well some of them are, those particular ones some of them are joined but they are to all intents and purposes separate in that they can be er, rented out separately they're not tied to the house erm in that they are they go with it but the housing department have the opportunity to rent them to whoever applies for them. And what would the rents be, any idea? Tha , that I can't tell you ! That's probably Considering the er a question for housing department really. on what the county council are gonna Erm erm then we've got some more erm here in this position and some more down here and in fact, I think that we've managed to squeeze a few more into erm, this position for the bungalow refurbishment, that's obviously an aside it's not part of erm what, what Moat are proposing. So there's a few on each side of the estate. Where are the parking spaces? The parking spaces for the erm bungalow residents erm are are generally spread around in in a, in such a way as to be as close as possible to the bungalows that they serve, they're not if you like, specific car park, but on this drawing they're, they're identified it's simply that the proportionate parking that the planners require for a construction of new houses is there and then over and above that there is further parking which, if you like, will satisfy the need of the bungalow residents, though they may not necessarily be identified specifically. Er, as you can imagine if you try and tell somebody to park in one place that somebody else has parked already, you could end up with some some misunderstanding, so there is erm a generous amount of parking to bring the total parking to the whole area up to the level that was erm put forward in the first master plan. An and what about the disabled parking? Well there are a number of spaces that are in positions which could be used by disabled, in other words, they are not sort of, sandwich tight against other spaces and what's happened in the past is that erm when a need has arisen an and when perhaps there's been er generally a bungalow that has been er, occupied by somebody who's disabled then the housing department have erm modified that space I mean,wha what we've actually done is we've er, taken a certain amount of block paving out but put back some block paved logo, sort of , standard white er symbol that erm that identifies disabled space and and, and that space is actually earmarked for that person, and it could happen in a variety of different locations erm it's just that there's probably not so much point in doing it until you know that there is er a specific need. Okay? Do you think they're wider? They're wider, yes. Oh good! Yeah yeah. Right. Anyone else? Thank you very much I've Oh sorry were you trying to get attention? I I know the question about rent was mentioned but, I'm just talking generally now, I asked this question to another housing association how do you justify rents of sixty pounds and above for accommodation and social housing? I mean, I know it's something to do with funding but could you just explain that for me? Yeah. Because we, I do not understand how I All average rents on our stock across the whole of the south east is twenty seven pounds a week erm, I think is, is the figure now the bulk of that funded down to the old er regime that we had from the housing corporation where we got er, a lot more grant and we had the residual line and the money we've had to borrow ourselves for the scheme was actually from the corporation themselves that all changed in the ninety eighty eight housing act and we now get a fixed er, sum of monies, it's fixed percentage of local cost from the housing corporation and the balance has to be borrowed from a private lender just like anybody else going out and and buying a home, if you like er, from a, a bank, from a building society or somebody like that and we have to charge a rent er to the property that will repay that loan and, the way in which we actually do it is, is we charge a lower rent and actually who pays the rent quite substantially below that er, because erm the rent on these properties if we i if we charge what the the housing corporation's grant as it's set would be round about ten, twelve pounds more expensive than that. Er, it's not a funding system that er that we would choose to to work under, we would want to keep the rents as low as possible er, but it's one that's set by central government through the housing corporation and that we have to live with. What we do do for our residents is employ a welfare benefit service so that they can maximise the er the housing benefit section that that they're eligible for to to make the po properties as affordable as as they can be. And obviously, we're, we're concerned that people erm will rent our properties who will then be reliant entirely on housing benefit er and and and if they increase their income they may be worse off! Er the fact of the matter is, it's the system that we as housing associations gonna have to live with er if if we're going to build new homes. Thank you. Alright secretary? Anyone else? Right! And can I then er draw attention to the recommendation on one o threes on er one er, sorry, on er B the amended notes that er came from er, the area committee er and er C. Are you all in favour of those? Oui! Oui! Mm. Do you want to show a a raising of hands so that we can assure your agreement. Okay. Anybody against? No. Right. Thank you very much. Then sit down now. Right erm we'll come on to item three er, with the questions from the public and er Becky is going to talk to about er questions. Thank you Chairman. Erm on the supplementary paper sent round you will see at I think it's page one and two, a letter received from the Carters Mead Resident's Association erm I hope you've all had a chance to read that as it was circulated to members in advance. Erm this matter was raised at committee and I'd like to explain the item of committee that prompted the letter from Carters Mead Resident's Association. Can I just say a few brief things to this, firstly, I share their concern entirely and totally and I don't think there's an officer round this table who wouldn't agree with that, and I also believe, having met with all the board members this morning, I know that the board members similarly agree. Erm we have taken various steps immediately, one is that the vandalism that taking place over the erm we have immediately re-secured, I have to say there's been about fifty erm tickets out to re-secure those those, that site over the summer but they have been re-secured and tomorrow morning there will be the commencement of bricking up of the doors and windows of the ground floor of block D,block. Can I also say that the erm the fear expressed about Woolwich, I believe to be fairly well founded Woolwich building, a Woolwich er, Building Society had been on erm, entered into a long time ago on this erm and the letter that was read out at Potter Street area committee from Woolwich indicated that they hadn't yet decided whether they would proceed and er I think is I've talked to the publican since they have promised us an answer this week er we are intending, we have spoken, Dermot's also spoken to our managing director we are confident we will have an answer from this week and I have to tell you that I think the answer will either no, or it will be so hazy that we'll need to take some action and make a decision. I sa , as I say, I met this morning with the three members from Potter Street erm we do have various alternative proposals for sa ways forward should the village back out and what I can say to you at this stage is that we have another meeting scheduled for next week, we will be meeting with the Resident's Associations keeping them fully informed erm we will ensure that the letter goes back to Mrs who and the other Resident's Associations who expressed concern there and that we will be taking, I hope, I hope because I'm gonna have to say if Woolwich back out we're going out we're going have to move very fast and do some quite erm in-depth work. We hope we will be able to take new proposals to Potter Street on the second of November if nothing else, we will certainly take them an honest indication of where we've got to so far and what proposals will be taking place, and what we will be proposing erm for the future. But, I mean the concern Carters Mead Resident's Association I think is well founded, I think there's been a lot of problems and er I think it can come upon us all to keep talking with them and to improve the situation should the should Woolwich back out. Thank you Melanie. Er, I noticed Mrs is in the audience, is there anything you'd like to say referring to what the officer Erm has said? just to to verify the fact that we are making so many , you said about pulling out as well is there a possibility of that? Erm Well hm you can see that er, members are also very concerned about it and er we've er,i there are external circumstances that you know, we have to look into first. But erm Mrs , said she will keep you informed of will discuss with the er, residents and the board of councillors. . If I could just say one other thing, that is that I've had a an initial of, of the blocks done and pending the outcome of Woolwich which I expect to get tomorrow erm, if they are backing out then I will be getting a full structural, engineers structural survey within a couple of days, this is the actually meeting plan. Mm. Yes. Er er anybody got any questions to put to Melanie, er about er yes, er yes er Norma? Yeah, I'm rather concerned that this kind of thing seems to be happening rather a lot, I mean this is so reminiscent of what happened in the, the four maisonette in in Fern Hill where we had empty blocks left for a long time erm becoming a magnet for vandalism and all kinds of everything! We've also seen it happening, to an extent in properties in Bishopsfield as well erm I really think we need to get to grips with what we seem to be doing, which de-counting people prematurely early er, in response to, to housing developments which we are planning to undertake in in partnership with other people and leaving ourselves open to this and not Well what could we be doing you tell yourself,. not only can pose as a danger but it presents er the unsightliness erm an and all the other problems associated with that. It seems to be happening far too often, and I wonder i I wonder what's actually going wrong that this happening so often and in so many places, seems to be something that you know, perhaps we need to address it far more generally as a problem of housing management as a whole. Er well if I can er answer some of those er, points. Er, first of all, I ensure that people are not de-counted unless they have er, wished to go and maybe that their their dwellings are er, in er a state of er, disrepair or there's something structurally wrong that they feel unsafe er, in them and then er, they are, I don't like the word de-counted, but then they er, are offered er other accommodation. I would agree with you that if the if we have gone along and said to people, well er yo , we've got alternative accommodation for you and they haven't wanted to go then, well I'm sure that we hope not to give them that er er, alternative accommodation er, and it's not in our interest at all to er, keep er, places empty, and further more we haven't really got er enough er, alternative places to put er, these er tenants in so I'm that it's as the result of the sort of dwellings that er we've er we now find ourselves with as a result of the er initial buildings in the first place. But we won't go into that, that's history! But it would be very interesting if er you had a positive er proposal or something constructive to make which we might be able to examine, but I can tell you at the end of the day money is required and this government won't allow to spend er, the money that er we have got er er erm at the moment that we could, er use but they won't let us. And further more, they don't come up er, with the er right amount of money for our needs er, but er it is er, duty bound er to us. I'm not disputing that, I'm simply saying that perhaps we have a management problem here where we could be doing things differently and I'd like to hear some positive suggestions from housing officers as to how you can address that. Oh! Well now er, if you've got some critical comments about the management of it perhaps you could write and we have a look at them. Alright? Any other members want any comments on Carters Mead indeed other ? No. No. Right. Thank you. Well thank you for your comments anyway erm we'll get er back to our next er item er, on the agenda. We've got a couple of erm er, oh that was the only one from the er questions is it? Yes, that's the one from there But it's right. Er, unfortunately Perhaps Bill could contentious items I've suggested five D and eleven eleven Got it here. ele eleven D yes. five hundred copies. five. Oh yes, that's right we right yes, five and er eleven D. Er, eleven is B. the same. B B. , yes. That's right. Sorry about that! Er, then erm er, we come to er, museums er,spoken . Right, thank you very much June. If I could draw members attention to the supplementary papers erm and it's page three which is the second report and it will become I will make it clear with regards to the er linking up of the two reports, both museums and Essex committee linked up to the museum registration. Erm members will re ma , will be reminded the report was requested at the last personal services committee with regards to the council's involvement in the current museums and Essex committee er, I'm also requesting er, the financial contribution that this council actually makes to that committee. Erm the report identifies the history of the committee and outlines the benefits that Harlow has achieved through membership. I'd like to highlight the er a quote by the county museum's officer with which the predominately the amount of er contribution which was agreed by this council on the twenty third of March ninety ninety er which actually relates to the size of the population, I will actually point that the thousand pounds has actually increased to one thousand three hundred, this year, because of, population has actually increased since then. We've already valued the use of free displays or whatever erm if I could point out the recommendations that the members agree in the report, the members agreed Harlow Council's continued membership of the museums and Essex committee. Right. Are there are any members any comments to make on these? Agreed. Are they Agreed for it? Does anybody oppose the recommendation. No. Thank you. The, the actual link is linked to museum registration which I'm sure members will remember erm with regards to the long running saga of the additional storage facilities. And going through on page sixty five in the main agenda this outlines the current plan to achieve registration for Harlow's museums in order to achieve to achieve the a the a a and tangibility to grasp to to obtain aid from the museum's national bodies. Agreed. Agreed. Right. Thank you very much . Erm seven, neighbourhood er welfare candidate. Rejected. Yes, at the last meeting these committee members did ask that er he produce some details of help and and a number of cases dealt with have been apparent and the details are presented for, for amendment.. Thank you. Who was it who wanted to know something on that? Yes I It's it's me. Yeah, I would like to do is just mention that it's so surprising really that er the resources used are out of all proportion to what we used to er do on it, on the other central panel. We've had ten meetings and only thirty cases, and that'll be the three cases where each meeting spread over a five different locations, which er doesn't seem a very good way to use our resources! So what I was wondering was er the scheme is in it's infancy this and I'm all in the favour of the decentralising in principle, but I think we ought to perhaps look at it a bit closer, and I would suggest that we have an up-to-date report at the next meeting of this committee so we can compare it over a longer term so, as that we might then reflect on a if we're doing the right thing or not. But it seems a waste of the resources to er have er, ten different meetings for thirty cases we that's, that's my view but, I would like to see another report at the next meeting so as we can compare. Right er Frank have you got any comments er to make on that? Yes, I I Councillor is quite right, I mean it is a new new departure to centre these panels in the neighbourhoods, it was always our intention to come back after a a period had elapsed er,we , with the new system to bring to members attention the success or otherwise of the neighbourhood panels. Erm and certainly I think I think in going to neighbourhood panels it was it was to serve a democratic process of tenants being able to panels local to their that area and I think in that sense erm it has been successful and certainly, I think as far as we were concerned er, it avoids the perhaps intimidating nature of, of tenants appearing in a large centre of the various panel which er I think was er, certainly one of the members wishes when we started on a neighbourhood basis but, yes it was our intention and, I would think that it's quite reasonable to ask us to bring the report to the next meeting er with a better explanation of how the council works so far. Yeah. May I ask er, another question is of the thirty cases in the neighbourhood the tenants don't need . No, I haven't that information,tha that that detail was asked for, but I do know that er that certainly in a majority of cases because they are local erm the attendance from tenants was certainly substantial and I would of, but certainly far more than you would expected if the panel perhaps had been inside a . . Er, just a minute, I'll ask Ann and then Lesley. Ann? I wa I wanted a a point that er respond er neighbourhood and the manager I spoke to said that the areas that were the case since er,de decentralisation because er people are er er in coming to neighbourhood offices and that of the of the managers arrange er er er aims or er either run in in two neighbourhoods er er I I feel personally it's been very worthwhile because we were able to talk to the er, they they they were never able to go and and and they came to the er, the neighbourhood offices international conducive er er er or er er ah i i in areas they want to talk to , so I I, I personally would would like to see this continuing er for perhaps a it isn't the best value for money i i i it certainly far better for for for can come to their neighbour office Speak to Thank you. . Thank you Ann. Les? Thank you,. Er, as you know, I haven't been exactly an enthusiastic supporter of neighbourhood erm areas, but I have to confess Some never attended them! I have to confess that on that, in so far as those that I've attended, and I've had a couple in my area I have to confess my surprise at the efficiency of them! And I really see that the public now certainly they give certainly for the benefit of the a ten , the tenants that A are presented Yes. there in comparison with the archaic way of old Bill's seventeen round this table Oh that's quizzing people don't go back to that way, that old system! The people there are that's going to the neighbourhood are getting a fair crack of the whip and they're being the centre of that every week. Er er, I wish the man wo wouldn't put words into my For what it's worth mouth Chairperson! No. I understand. I say I think that's quite No. wrong! I I Interpretation was You're not archaic and the and the er the me er the meeting to be called not And we archaic cos we have the Don't take it personal Bill! It wasn't meant Well er, he meant it, you meant it personal! Yes , alright, yes. Do breakdown Could we do it Come along! of Councillor conversion, decentralisation Yes! Yes! Yes! And I think that'll be gone on very late, yes. Jim? Yes Chairer, why don't we pat ourselves on our, on the back about this it would it be useful i in in the the report, a further report that's gonna come forward if there could be some indication as to actual format that was adopted when a person goes to one of his welfare panels, cos I've been to three and there doesn't seem to be any consistency whatsoever in the way that things occur or whatever! I don't think Right. it's entirely fair! Yes, I think that's up to the Chairer so Oh, I think it's up to the council Chairer to say what, what procedure should be so, in fairness,. Yes, yes. There is one other point, although erm you know, it's good that they are in the er areas which the tenants er, live so it's er not very difficult for tenants to come and see their councillors but er er, there is a difficulty at times when er the er air the housing manager has to ring around to get the er members, who are able to sit on that panel and sometimes that is difficult because we have just three members and sometimes they can't all fit in the , whereas when you have a larger group if one member can't attend, there's invariably sufficient there to be able to come to a decision so I think that that's on the other side of the balance sheet. But, altogether yo , er sorry, you wanted to say something on that? Yes, I do sorry! I, I don't often agree with Jim about anything , but I really do agree with him about this, that there has to be some clear guidelines, I think, as to how these are fixed, they are not going be have the potential of being very unfair to people because people operate in different ways in different areas and I would suggest that it would be a good idea if this community were to ask for erm guidelines to be drafted for this committee to agree so that there is a more even fair, laid down procedure for dealing with the cases coming before the panel. Right, well we'll look into we'll look into that. Any other members got any comments on this? If it's a problem with numbers and why don't we extend the numbers on the panel? I mean No! Couldn't put the numbers up! Well I think that that is the problem is with how the is conducted who gets the first bite? Who puts their case first? Who Yeah. that that type of thing. I understand that but what I'm talking about. Three people on the panel is that right? Well t yes, and it has Well no I haven't got a problem I I have feelings about it, I I I mean, my, generally my experience I don't know I haven't discussed with other members but er, when I the panel that I er, allocated to erm and I was telephoned, could a make, and certain dates were made and I finally made one then I was told, oh no that's not convenient! At the end we er, of the day I had to opt out because it wasn't possible for me to fit in and someone else a , I'm just thinking of the time taken for er, er housing manager or one of his er, staff to erm er, you know, to do that practical thing that's all Oh yes that I'm of course it should! saying. But we'll look into er the format I think. Can we have a further report please? Yes, there's going to be a procedure and a report er is er and and we're going to have another report Frank, yes. Thank you er, very much. Right, now we get er back to the er, and we've got er, item which is er, the council's er response the proposed merger of the health er authority. Erm er, it's Vince . Thank you Chairer. Erm, the latest round of erm proposals to come before you as part of the N H S reforms are the consultation document that we we received recently and proposals to the merge the three existing area health authorities in North Essex to form one merged unit. We've attempted, Chairer, to assess this proposal and then to set a criteria I think it's important for members to understand that currently there is a consortium that er, is in operation, fully operational that is carrying out the tasks erm, that are identified in the consultation document mainly erm the consultation document itself does erm show exactly what the health authority is doing erm, the proposal now before you is to extend that erm to one merged unit of health authority with one executive board erm based with three local health clinics erm, to provide the service. We've made an assessment on the single reports, yeah and we're asking members to erm, give us guidance on the principles it and your response in order to, to get a response to the regional health authority by this Friday. Erm I do apologise for this but er unfortunately we have no choice I suppose . Right er, any comments from members er, from this er, report? Anyone Yes Chairer er I think Vince's report is a very fair summary of the er the the issues which face us erm truth is, is what we've been as in this proposed consortium which no doubt will go through with it's most of the reforms of the N H S despite the er consultation mechanism which they've gone through you know, but largely these are beforehand given the unaccountable of the N H S management! What we're actually lo doing here is those of longer members who remember we used to have a thing called the area health authority which was proposed in a three tier structure by a corporation called the McKenzie corporation at great expense charity governed by three quarters of a million pounds to invent structure of the National Health Service nineteen seventy two some years later they came back and said, well give us another million pounds and we'll go back and look at it again, and say actually we were wrong, and they abolished the areas, and produced districts! And what we're getting here actually is a recreation of the area health authority they're actually gonna be situated in the same office block where the old area authority used to be in Witham erm, and the community health council which I represent this authority on has certainly been er, raising a number of questions about this for fear of centralisation in Witham, erm with perhaps the lack of accessibility to local needs of West Essex and in Harlow particularly,. The question that the senior, the middle management staff will propose the authority, has been drawn almost exclusive , exclusively from North East and the Mid-Essex health authorities and not from West Essex. Cos, of course, the West Essex management staff have been co saddled with another project which is to provide a trust for the East Herts and West Essex health providers, i.e. P A H and associated health services providers and surprise surprise!in this council chamber Chief Executive of the West Essex Health Authority has become the Chief Executive of the provider trust despite that, it's not gonna be approved by the Secretary of State, but certainly a conference which she's speaking at in , she is named as the Chief Executive! Actually, I didn't see the job advertised, I must admit, I was going to apply for it myself of course! Ah but, surprise surprise! It seems she's been appointed without any advertising which would seem to flow equal opportunities promises here, the government and the health service really believe in it! So because they don't like the sound of this the other two have drawn off their magic stone and got them into the top jobs in er consortium! Er now it claims, of course that this is a more efficient purchasing mechanism on behalf of the patients and the community of this area the problem is, of course, it depends what you mean by efficiency and the truth is, that we may get increased our purchasing in terms of frugal as they put it delicately our patients! But actually it doesn't tell you anything about the quality of the care which they're purchasing and the evidence that we are getting increasingly from the community health council is the experience of people of the health service is that actually the quality of the care is getting worse and this is not due to the staff in the health ee the more detailed plans coming to the next meeting of the e the more detailed plans coming to the next meeting of the for an operation er, four years, it should to be said er, she's been waiting despite the government's claim that all operations are done within two years er for very severe varicose veins and surprisingly enough she got them because of course most varicose have been removed her, the north-east Thames region erm, and er she turned up on the Wednesday and the operation had been postponed twice previously er, she was er gone through all the er, various tests which took her four hours cos she had to find all the places herself, there was nobody to show her to X-ray and various other places erm she was prepared for the op and then was sent home because there wasn't a bed available! And told to turn up the next morning, waited another four hours, finally a patient who'd had an operation for a serious gall bladder operation two days before hand was kicked out of his bed and sent home so that she would be put in the bed, given the operation! This is actually the state the of health service and the truth is that all of these organisational changes are really not gonna solve the basic problems of the health service which is under- funded and under-resourced. So, I think we should say we are sceptical, and I think the paper puts it correctly er, we are sceptical of whether the reforms of the first consortium in fact, is going to meet the needs in terms of new health area and I know that time will come, they're talking about the lot, it's gonna wonderful and that the our economies should get all I can say is that the likelihood is the only f the area committee er, so that residents can comment managers, but since we've already had a nine hundred percent increase in senior management in the health service in the past five years up from nine hundred to over ten thousand at a cost of fifty to two hundred and fifty million pounds I'm rather sceptical about that one as well! So, in general, I think we should be as sceptical er and critical of any of these proposed changes and the key point of course was the at the lack of accountability, but there'll be even less accountability one suspects in the new consortium. Final question perhaps we should raise is well is there actually gonna be a need for it in two three years time down the track? If all providers going into trusts and if all er purchasing gonna be done by fund holders, the majority of whom are confident at this stage they'll become fund holders what actually is the role of the purchasing consortium that be and role of the health authorities, as such er, other than perhaps to collect statistics in the future of our time the climbing and quality of the health service in this area? Thank you Hugh. Anyone who wants to Yes,? Thanks. Erm, I really feel that this consultation is coming more than a too late because we started on the slippery slope when the consortium was er first dreamed of o , you know about a year ago and set up in April and that really this is the sort of the inexorable next move, and this consultation is far far too late! Erm I think that Vince has raised of very personal questions that we have ask about this erm the question of local accountability of the health authority board that will be created by this the to service this new joint health authority, would in fact, be the size of the existing one for West Essex and we would ha , have only a third of the representation that we currently have the whole of West Essex we'll only have two non- executive members on the health authority board and I don't think that that is terribly accountable but certainly a considerable reduction on what we've got at the moment. Erm not only will people have to travel a lot further for treatment, as was admitted at the public meeting erm last Monday, here in Harlow but er if people want to is maybe they'll one or two less senior f the area committee authority they will have to travel to Witham or Colchester or whatever, by absolutely execrable public transport if they don't drive a motor car to actually attend those meetings and that's not democratic or accountable either! Erm on the financial side, I don't think savings of a hundred thousand pound or the pay an non-executive out of a budget of two and hundred eighty million for the total of the three health authority is actually a heck of a big saving to justify what's happening! Erm what this is really about, I think we all recognise this is the erm purchaser aim to increase their leverage in the contract situation as against the providers on the other side of contract and in fact, I think we ought to tie this very much more in with what this authority has been saying about the proposals of the trust on the provider side because I think that this is an argument against the whole district N H S trusts that we're getting, but it is encouraging the situation in which health authorities have purchasers on the other side of the contract are going to want to band together and merge to create a larger block in which to negotiate with their whole trust providers, I think this is a a very dangerous situation and think we needed to tie the two together as an argument there. Erm and i also need to be concerned that the health authority I think is claiming that this merger will actually give them a better erm size population for research purposes for for purchasing, however, I think that it may well be that particular health needs, people in West Essex and Harlow in particular which has, for example, a rapidly ageing population and therefore needs facilities had not been planned into the town by way of health erm, that those statistics, those pockets of need are going to get overlooked in a much more large and vast disparate statistical picture, stretching from Hertfordshire right across to the coast I think it's too big a sample and we need to make sure that our specific needs aren't going to be overlooked in all that. Erm it's quite clear there's going to be no more new money for patient care and without that I don't think we're going to get the increase in quality of service but that we actually need. I think also in those very tough times ahead I think it's a very difficult decisions to be made about what services are provided erm, and what operation people are actually going to be able to have done and I wonder how much local people are gonna have a chance to say anything about that in the situation in which their health service their health authority is based so far away. Erm I've mentioned accessibility, I would raise that again, I'm a non-driver erm it's easy to hop in a car and get from here to Chelmsford, if you want to do it by public transport it is a nightmare erm the meeting here on, on Monday which was very poorly attended, and I understand that's been the pattern right across the area, and I don't think the health authority is that interested in finding out what people have thought to be honest! Erm it is admitted that people are gonna have go much further to get their treatment ah, that was quite clearly stated as part of the the down side of it, and I don't think we can tolerate that until we've got a decent public transport system that's going to allow patients to get by public transport from here to Colchester or Witham or Clacton or wherever and er and their, their relatives and friends to be able to follow to visit them if you know, as necessary. Erm so that's a a whole of responses to to this, I think we need to be far more clear in our opposition to this, I think it's a very dangerous situation it's one that's happening across the country, we're not the only sufferers and I think consortia have been very dangerous things from the beginning, and are leading inextricably to the merger that we we put before us as a proposal tonight, and I think we really should be quite strenuous in our position to it. Thank you. Any other comments?? Simon? Hello . As you saying to us all only to be said interest in the matter i in the erm the merging matter to . The problem I've found with paper erm it was confusing, misleading and erm very misleading . Throughout visions of, people who also come out tonight there's there's been obviously er, a potential saving of a hundred thousand pounds on on members erm I I'm not gonna I don't that's right. That's your salary Simon! Yes. Yes. too closely I don't actually recall seeing in the er in the actual wo consultation documents erm funding is not one of the issues being addressed by the merger with . You went to the public meeting Simon, that's the problem! I'm sorry? You went to the public meeting, that is what They they said! They actually quoted a hundred thousand pound Er figure did they? can we just have er just one person talking please? Simon will you continue. They were . Sorry? What what the government, what the erm the consortium and paper's about er, is improving the, the identification band that was hanging over of of health care, once that recipe is will get much larger consortium er, it's much widespread of er, devotion, expertise er, er professionalism in in assessing health needs er think about one of those areas that have been saved from in West Essex over the last over the last few years and by going into a much larger group with more resources erm, there will, they will be able to actually er work er far, far more effectively in sorting out what's actually needed. One of the other things I found that people are conflicting in the paper erm is of people having to travel further erm if I can just yes, on pa , on page three, paragraph this is the choice that seems of the area and the travel and on page four, paragraph one the version says that local people will still get a choice of i in the London hospitals. We could only er er, in it's not quite clear whether erm we're in favour of sending people all the way down to London for their health care, but we're not in favour of sending anywhere,anywhe where more local for the the erm, you know I, I'm not quite sure what you want you know what what point the lady's trying to get across there. In Er In a minute Vince if but recent problems on . . I know they propose Then o on page five I found a quote that there was nothing particularly in the consultation document for merger referring to finance apart from the increase coming from the changes and that question er, the, I take your points er, in fact referring to the and provider unit. Well in when you're considering the the possible merger of the three health authorities, they haven't positioned any one particular private er, provider unit is, is not really the crucial issue at hand! If you wanna make a point about that well well we'll point about them erm there is er a comment erm in this erm erm yeah on paragraph, paragraphs four and five, page five the first of we will buy them including all the legislation that will reduce and if you got up to page three, paragraph six there's a claim that levels are eight percent higher on the same money! But you know,the these people ha have hardly been treated erm and a, a contract for obtaining more health care year by year so, you know if yo , if you're saying that erm these wi will will reduce or that the action has already taken place, it can't reduce erm so, then again it's, it's not really relevant to erm the proposal of running a, a health authority, you know, these people should talk . Erm I've, I I think I'll erm was talking about people attending the health authority meetings at the moment but the local health authority do move meetings around, Saffron Walden Bishop's Stortford, Harlow and and and one over at erm and this apart from it's was only us coming from Harlow at the meeting last week and the health authority met in Harlow er, you know the me the meetings are moving about, they are there for people to come to but if they're not coming to to the meetings while they're o on on the doorstep then, then really what else can the health authority do to me , to make people come? You know I erm Hugh was talking about erm somebody being thrown out of hospital after gall bladder operation after only two days well fortunately these days there are one or two strives in er in in health care erm to erm which is very much easier to er, operate on people if you're if you if you're going to put them out cos the operation's more er simpler it's far less stress on patients and and, and they they're becoming a lot quicker er, clearly if faded out er, the way is completed then er obviously things are serrated with with the chief executive of the health authority and I'd like to give you this October when when the Chief Executive was . ! Yes. Best person I think , you know. Erm there is just one, may I just er, make one final point erm paragraph on page four refers to improvements in services of minority groups and also on page five and six the need for sa input, input into priorities shall not be able to for this . One of the main purposes of o of a consortium is actually looking at the health needs erm it's impressions that I've I actually got o on a number of occasions that I've er I think involvement in assessing health needs but I've actually answered anywhere er, and I'd very interested as to how or what kind of input erm we will be looking to on that? Thank you, er Simon. Er er if they want to come back on anything Hugh? Do , do you, no? No, no, I mean No, right. I could come back and then Yes. can I say to Simon that Er, but is, are there any other questions before er er on the report that er Dermot and Vince has I think we ought to have a an adequate response Chairperson to the Yes, well just a minute! I want er, I'm just asking if er, anyone's got er, comments to make to Vince and then Vince will reply to them, that's the point, he's got to reply to some of the comments er, that er Simon has made and then we'll come to what we want our response to be. So as there's no other comments er, Vince would you have you got any? Yes Chairman, the figure of a hundred thousand as we said did, was erm a figure quoted on by account chief's executive of the purchasing consortium erm, that was spoken at a public meeting held here in Harlow last week erm the issue of the the transport around the area erm, was accepted by the the chief executive of the health authority erm or of that of the consortium erm, and the and the view that it would be much more difficult with the lack of public transport to get to the more relo , remote areas of Essex the the reason that the erm reduced use of London was put into this report was also erm, clearly stated by the chief executive,i it's their clear aim to provide more of, to purchase more of the services from within the north Essex area, and that was stated in a major part of the conta , of of their erm achievements and that automatically means a reduced amount of choice for those people who would otherwise for, to London. Erm it is er fair to say that London's far easier to get to er, from Harlow than certain areas in Essex are erm, those are direct comments from the chief executive of the proposed erm health authority. The financial position of the provider, this was erm well in the report because the consultation document that was it quotes a figure o of erm, in the amount of patient's treated erm, with the same amount of money. However, one has to bear in mind that at the last meeting of the West Essex Health Authority erm they are saying that they can't carry on treating the same amount of people erm, because they're overspend already this year and that they will not treat these er, extra contractual referrals without prior funding being approved and that was co , that was actually stated at the meeting last week. Erm, so that that was put in the meeting to show a balance, if you like, between, yes they've achieved an eight percent but over last two years the providal unit have run deficit and erm one interacts with the other and that was, that was also something that er that's Erm not true. The last thing I would say Chairer on the erm, what else can the authority do? Health authority meetings can't, they aren't very well publicised erm and in fact, sometimes we have go over and, and get our own agendas and er I would suggest that perhaps would it be possible for them to be much better publicised than they currently are? Yes. Thank you Vince. Now, er erm are there any members who want to add to er what's er, has been written in er this er response? I think that er Vince has has raised a point about er erm, informing er and consulting local people and to let local people know erm when the meetings are then local can't go, I'm sure that if they really wanted people to come they'd make it much more er, in erm with the advertising so clear that er people would be able to and also if they had it at the times when a their meeting at the times when it was mostly convenient to er, the general public. Hugh, do you want to comment? Yeah I was gonna move erm on a suggestion that we had not been convinced of the need for this consortium by er, so far and and that certainly we as an authority er, have remained opposed to it on the grounds that we've stated the terms of accountability in terms of the er, sensitivity to local needs in terms of transport issues and in terms of the clear intention to restrict patient choice erm which I think is a key think which should be emphasised Yes. the evidence that we've found out already from C H C is that the operation of the N H S reforms has restrictive patient choice because crucially those referrals to London teaching hospitals which used to made as a matter of course if treatment is unable er, unavailable in Harlow have actually been largely stopped, I got the detailed figures from the purchasing director erm er, recently in the C F C minutes and it shows a miniscule number of patients being referred to London teaching hospitals erm, and this is clearly the reason as this points out in this paper that London teaching hospitals are in serious financial problems and four of them, indeed are being threatened with closure by the Tomlinson report and I think many patients in Harlow would much rather as er, people have pointed out, go to er, Middlesex and U C H, should they still exist than to go to Colchester and er, but this is this a key question, so on the the basis of the this consortium doesn't meet those criticisms indeed,make the situation worse I move that we oppose it in principle that Vince reports on that line. So seconder for that? Seconded. Seconded, yes but Lorna? Erm ya, I mean I've already had what, I've had what I've had to say about the the the content of the thing I was merely going to ask where we go from here? I'm aware that our backs are up against the wall as regards time because the response is meant to be in by Friday erm I don't think actually that this is the the paper that Vince is presenting, although in fact, surely raises issues, I don't think it is actually response as it stands, I think it is a paper which raises items of issues for this committee to consider, I don't think in itself it serves as a response. Erm I wonder how substantially it's going to re-written, first, in order to make it a response rather than an issue raising paper and ah, secondly, in the light of what we've all had to say this evening and, if it is to be re-written I wonder erm who is going to actually see it and approve it before it goes off in time to get to the health authority by the day after tomorrow? Well that's er cos normally they a matter will be er that we going to fight er, easily er so I mean i , it meant that the er, that er er some more should be brought out so that it er does er adhere to what er these er er government departments er expect as a response rather than er er as this considered issue raising er, we can er facilitate that er quite er easily but er I think er the the main point is what Hugh has said, that er we opposed it because it's not going to help in my view it's not going to help er the patients, the patients are not going to come off any better as a result of er, these er er what I would say and I feel and er the, I I I'd like to know what er the GP's think about cos GP's usually erm er, advise their patients if they have to wait a long time from one hospital, they would advise them to go into London and er, if that's been stopped as been er that's been stated erm then erm, er the GP's are not going to feel very happy about their patients er, getting er erm a lesser service. So, the patients and our residents are our main er concern and er, if we all er, oppose it in principle and er, er er then er let us see how we'll erm er, revamp this er response. Alright? Jim? Yes Jim? considering, I mean, there is a closing date quite quick Mm. well may I propose that we put all this along of the lines with flexible that they expressed the committee tonight and use ? Exactly! We use Right, thanks. Er, I don't know if you er, meant er er er the various plans to achieve er,i in that order but I certainly want obey patient's choice er, er er a a at first that's the reasons I've found. Well yes, that will come out er . And and you mentioned GP's, I mean, this is one way of almost perhaps forcing some GP's to become er erm a fund holders, because then they can go an an an and buy their er er patient care from wherever they the they want to! But this er er er if they're not fund holders that they er er er and then it's a way out for er . Yes. Yes. Right, thanks er, Ann. Right, we agree with erm Agree. . Thank you very much. On the next er, item er, the er erm an elective member to represent the council on the purchasing strategy group ee er er you would I would like the move . Well, I was going to say we're take it to council alright? Alright. Yeah, okay. Erm, can I ? Yes. And I've kept . And now last week. erm on the next er, item er we have er on item ten we've got the welfare rights and er advice and we've got quite a long report which I hope you'll agree is an excellent report, er and er Sue is here to present it. Sue please? Page seventeen to ninety four. Erm because the report is er quite a long report mainly the er part of the report erm I will pick out the most important comments and if I could take the first part of the report first erm this concerns a new staffing structure between er, newly emerged welfare rights and advice service. Erm the council erm, the welfare and associate advi advice centres since nineteen seventeen eight however, until March of this year erm the staff the counter staff within the advice centre were divided into to two departments er, the information and community services department reported to committees and, as a result of the general move within the council and the service department to er neighbourhood erm offices and called the support services. We were asked to erm come up with a new structure erm, and and it, the purpose of this report and to put that . The I think the erm the main point that I'd like to make is that erm the structure as it's posed erm is for the same number of staff erm, however, the three, what were supervisory stroke managerial posts erm have changed, we feel, as a result of the merger and therefore, and there are three er little posts mainly, a head of, people called a head of and a head of the support, support a support services manager and a support services officer and erm the appendix details the main er, functions in each post, er those posts. But erm certainly they er if they are er, graded as we anticipate there will perhaps be a small saving, in fact, as a result of the merger. And I think they are graded slightly higher than the as , they they will come out at the same cost, same overall costs. And the new structure erm moves towards erm team working across the advice centre composes of three teams er and also, takes on the critical self managing team so that erm in terms of the this work and technical support that er, has in the past been offered by a team leader, er, team leader and advice centre manager that will be, in the future will be offered by a senior member of staff erm, for each other and for less experienced staff . The teams will er, in the service part, which is the second part of this report is, is who ? Erm the the service channel will be divided into the three teams and the teams will be expected to deliver erm an agreed level of service within the which ever is available . So chaired the first part of the report I recommend that the structure as outlined erm, be approved and that the necessary recruitment take place as soon as possible. Er, I understand that if that those recommendations are approved this evening that that will then go to erm council staffing erm, which is currently erm, decided the overall er, priorities intended . Okay, I don't know whether I repeatedly er, members of the council like to ask questions about the structure so they can ask, and I can move on, so The next, well I'll give them tha , er ja , er Jim, yes? Yeah,I I will take only part of this debate as my daughter works in . Alright Jim Okay. Er, Ann, yes? Now personally I understand that the benefit shop is o er er er will be moving to the advice dispensing of centre shortly. Er, what co-operation or a ar ar ar ar you,? The these could of been yeah, they were bringing er er an , I'm bringing it in because I Ann I'd rather you keep the reports if you don't Yes. mind! An and perhaps for that, I've never heard that one before! . Or or jumping up the council's face! The the the the the the of the Benefit Shop, I make people advice and several of us were set on, on on on er er that you handled recently er er er er i it was the . Am I allowed? Yes, you can. Yes, but er we're really dealing er with Yes. the advice centre and what has happened to with erm er, I've er, if you've read the reports you'll see that er, that had been working er under er er er a considerable amount of er er stress and strain. Erm there's been a reduction er, in the er, staff er because er er people have moved on and er, I take Sue's point about er if it weren't for the fact that erm they'd got fully e e experienced staff who've been there some time, they haven't, not used to this churning over o of, and therefore, that has paid off in er in er in erm so far as being able to deal with the problems that have arisen and er, you'll see further on er, addition profiles of the work that's been done with er in this area over the town . Er, the, so something must be done quickly, I fear, about the er, management er of er, er the, the new structure and I hope you would agree to it unless anyone else has got, yes? Er i i is Harry? council gonna erm pose it in the areas closer to it ? Well, er that's been, that's been outlined in er er,i in the er, the report! Yes, but I think . All, all I wanna ask really is that erm er, is the staff happy with it? I mean that's the main thing,i in that staff . As long as you that situation, I mean that's the main thing. Well that it means that we've got, there's going to be er, a certain amount of extra staff though required, that's what's in in the report. Well you can start by not depending on the structure er er the structure of which Susan's speaking Yes. Yeah. seems to me is a very sensible organise the system most effectively er whether there's any but that's not affecting the structure. bit And the the structure. I've just asked Sue, I'm sure you wrote this with the full support of your staff? Yes. Yes. Well I'll second what Peter said. What did you say again? Erm,structure. And very system Just a minute! structure is the the the er Sue wants to write it down what you've said are you moving that we Yes, that er, the recommendations that er , presumably our service approved which has got structure in it, does that er Yes. Bu but Chairer it's not a practised little structure it's a guaranteed performance and what's it committee. They do that with this recommendation. Sorry? The the It's not the practice, the questions of structure guarantee performance erm P and Q committee . Er, yes but er er, I under stand that this is going to Yes, you've said that I mean to er another panel isn't it? It's going to be erm In actual fact, Jim is right it's slightly complicated. Service plans come with relevant committees, being this one in this case but structures and structures strictly speaking, are still the remit of P and Q, so I think it might be a courtesy to let me have a look at the structure because they are simply right, guardians of the organisation P and Q Yes. As I think Shaun would phrase it. Yes. Erm but I think it would, really be a courtesy. Certainly the request of staff then could turn into of the panel erm but but I think at the same time if people want to look at the structure so that they have a complete view of the structural organisation Yes? That would be erm that would be a part of it. in Okay? We agree with that? Agree. Agreed! Nobody against that? No. Right! Thank you very much. So that er finishes er er, and erm the page. Now we go on to er housing er, issues. Er, and this is er Paul is it not? Yes, thanks Chairer. Yeah. The report on ! Oh sorry! Sorry! Sorry! There is the second part of the Oh! But I thought we erm just explained that? to service the service clan which, I don't think will be controversial but erm I did just seat for the first part of report, the little bit about . Yes. Did you want to, er well Well I thought that members had raised Yes, I thought, but then there's, but briefly er Sue, I was going to wanted to point out in fact er you just er if you don't mind Paul I'll just go back Mm. to Sue wanted to point out that er erm how well your staff had er worked on er that what they had done er er all over the town i in some instances er enabling people to get to their rights by you know, taking them to tribunals which is quite er time er er exercise. I, I certainly don't erm propose to go through the service requirements to approve it but I did say that to start with, I just wanted to clarify that all the policies have been by the people and Yes. that I don't . Yes. Yep! Moving straight up there Mm. Right. Thank you very much. Right er Paul, we're going over to Yeah, page ninety five, ninety Yes. six report on Field development. Erm members will remember at the last er, personal services committee on the twenty fourth of June er, the option to put forward by the Environment Trust and Widdings er, builders was accepted as the one that er officers could pursue and to actually get some final proposals worked up and bring back to both the neighbourhood committee and this committee. Erm at that erm meeting members did er bring up a number of points er, the comments and questions which have been put to the Environment Trust and the answers to them are there on page ninety five under progress to date and, and on onto page ninety six er, the main ones really are the question as to whether er, any rented housing could be provided erm, in the scheme is dealt with there the Environment Trust only develop for sale or for equity share er, they're not a housing association, they're a charitable body erm so they didn't feel that they were able to er, take on the role of er, provided rented housing in the scheme. Erm the other main point which was raised by planning if you remember, was that erm, they wanted officers to evaluate a two block scheme er, because they wanted er, good access to the land to the rear of Franklyns for er, perhaps some future development. When this was put to the Environment Trust erm they were er, unaware before that stage that there were erm may be proposals of developing that land and expressed an interest in being involved if that ever came to fruition. Erm now we have, as an authority to negotiate er, to put that land together erm the Scout's hut is on some of that land at the moment, and we've failed er, to do that in the past. Where, the environment trust, since our initial meeting have spoken er, both with Essex County Council and community groups in the area and have made substantial progress erm on the idea of er, using some of the land to the rear of er, the existing Franklyns block er, so they do want to come back with some wider proposals for a larger scheme which will be much the same as regards the Franklyns block but will include nine er, additional homes erm, and they will be two three bed houses and seven er, two bedroom houses. Erm it's it's quite an interesting erm er, addition to the er original proposal but clearly members will need to take a view as to whether er they want erm the Environment Trust to do that but erm, er what I would suggest is that we bring back er, some final proposals from Environment Trust at the next meeting er, for members to have a look at. The er, other recommendation really is just a member's note the outcome of discussion so far, it has been to the erm, we did take the paper to the Hare Street, Little Parndon er, committee er, in this cycle and there were no comments that came er, from that committee. Right. I don't remember maybe I've got a poor memory but er I can't remember you mentioning that the erm area committee but er there was erm going to be another block there and that er, the er this er trust, er Environment Trust had let one of the Northbrooks er and consulted with the Northbrook's people? Okay, at that point in time they hadn't actually er taken Ah! that consultation, they were waiting to meet with the county er Oh! to . Yeah. Er well erm I'll be very interested to know whether er, what sort of consultation with the Northbrook's er, people that they've had and erm when er, I recall asking about erm er, some of these er dwellings being for rent and erm I thought that , you said er i it was a possibility. But then you come and tell us well they're a charitable trust I would of thought that a charitable trust would of been very er, happy to have seen the some rented accommodation? So er but er, that's just maybe a bit Yeah. bit of a . Yes yeah, I, I'm also very disappointed that er er, in the negotiations that they didn't er er, come up with any sort of housing erm I think the, it's mucking any future negotiations with other partners or developers,speculators whoever they may be, I think it's important that we have, er we strike a balance between bu houses for sale and rented accommodation because, I mean they need to now the building er, this house for sale and each time we we we we knock down flats or building and ga gave the land free of charge to the speculators we have to de-count people, those people are moving th the existing te er people on the waiting list and they're getting moved further and further back and er I think i i i it's a very worrying situation where we are continually giving land free of charge and they're getting no rented accommodation. I mean well if I remember in Harlow er,we we i i in in nineteen seventy eight we had twenty thousand er, social er, council housing and about nine thousand owner occupiers the situation, that ratio's been reversed where we, where i by the end of the century we practically have about three thousand social social housing and about twenty two thousand er er, owner occupiers! Erm but er I hope you're not going to way that er Westminster Council has gone, for each er er er, er er th their property into disrepair they bought it up, do it up and flog it on the open market when a few yards away there are people no a er now sleeping under bridges and canals! Now I think that's disgusting! And er, we'll be a part, I know as councillors, Labour councillors we are caught in a trap because due the financial constraint that the government has placed upon us there is very little we could do but, oh I'll get I I er crumbs of comfort from the speculators who may decide to to give us a few social housing. I'm concerned for the people who are waiting for housing, I'm concerned about young people who are living in i i in ten er, on the tenth floor of high rise flats, these people have been waiting a very very long time and each time er, the er these they are, the properties are er, de-counted they are going further and further behind. So I think any future in and negotiations with the er,there has to be provision for social housing. Well I think that when yo , we're going to get a hundred percent nomination there . Yeah perhaps I could erm, reply to one or two of those points. Yes, as you pointed out we have been offered one hundred percent nomination rights to er, these equity share units the er, partners which members have shows as erm er the Environment Trust are a charitable trust, they're not they're developers, they're not speculative developers. Erm the point that they were at pains to make as well was that erm that because of the low cost nature of these homes erm the charge for a mortgage would actually be less than er, is is common in a charge for most association properties with similar sites erm in terms of rent. Erm members may also remember that er for the schemes that came forward on Franklyns were a result of a er, an advertisement being placed three of the schemes put forward erm, were for sale of equity share, one was put forward which came er, to the last meeting in this committee which was a rented scheme erm, but was for people for members took a view the erm the Environment Trust scheme er would prove a better option er, in Harlow. Chairperson. Yes erm Hugh, I want to ask you as erm the Chairer of the area er committee erm if you're happy with Yes I mean, I think that we had a big discussion at the last area committee on the scheme and the problem was of course that the detailed plans er, for the consultation erm to the, I'm at, I'm a bit worried that at this late stage there's this new idea of of building on the green wedge at the back and I wouldn't like to think that the scheme should be delayed the important thing, it seems to me, is that it should press ahead and and , and Northbrooks ever since it was built right next door to me when I was living there er, many years ago and er get the, the new development done, and so that I don't think we should hold on. Erm I'm rather sceptical about the notion of building on that green wedge at the back! It's does smack to me a bit of in-filling and er, Northbrooks is quite a dense area already, a ve , a very dense area erm, and erm I'm I'm, you know, I'd like to see any detailed plans on that before we even look at one in principle. I don't think we should hold up this one because of it, er so I would like to see the more detailed plans coming to the next meeting of the area committee er, so that residents can comment on this. Yeah, but isn't that going to be incorporated in as one package? Well I wasn't sure whether Paul was saying it's gonna be held up because of that? No, erm We no, I've I've had a meeting wi with colleagues around the table with the Environment Trust in the last couple of days and er Yeah. just that issue was raised that we would not want to see demolition of Franklyns that block held up by this. Mm. We would not want to see the scheme a held up or at least, the timetable that we could set down. Right. Erm the assurance from the Environment Trust is that i it need not happen erm, it may not hold things up Mm. erm providing they could get some planning applications at the next er, committee cycle. Mhm. erm, yes this is part of the planning process in any case the er the suggestion proposal all being . Yeah. Okay, thanks Paul. Yes, you wanted to say? It was the thing about er, my understanding is that people in the area and it's probably the most densified area in the whole of the town are very very cagey about this! I think in general term they will go along with the erm the de-furbishment or the destruction of the er but my understanding is they are reserving their judgement until they've seen some version of the plan. Mm. but er any attempt to put anything on at the back to the extent, right up to the Scout's hut in Beech Hall will, I think, generate a lot of feelings about Mm it in in, in the area. Something like, I think we've seen before, so er Mm. Yes. Right, so Yeah can I just Sorry? Oh Annabelle! wa wa wa wa wa wa wa wa , thank you. Paul was saying that I mean, they're a hundred percent nomination housing the people who need the housing most are aren't the ones who who'll be able to er, to use the and there's no housing strategy on on er o o on the equity part,the the there might be, only a tiny bit, on on on the rent side but it doesn't homes fo for the people who really need it, even if they've got a hundred percent nomination flats! Okay, could I actually say something here? Erm, listening both to what Anna and Terry are saying here, I think er myself and and the colleagues in housing are very well aware that what this council doesn't have is a pre-developed strategy of social housing. Erm we've we've actually developed social housing really rather as it's been an opportunity we've grabbed it and we've done it, you know, some of it's been very very good an and nobody's knocking that but I think it is time that we took stock and actually had a a proper policy and a proper strategy on sa on social housing. Can I just say to you that that's already been developed and worked out we're intending in the next cycle to bring you proposals for a housing strategy, er on social housing, and within that we're intending to run a series of short seminars for members to give members, all members, not just members of this committee but members of all area committees until everybody has that information background information on things like, social housing, partnerships, housing association grant so that everybody's in a position to actually er, see and make a decision on what this council wants out of social housing, but all of that will take place in the next cycle Chair. Mm. So that I think the sort of questions that are being raised here will be addressed and will be able to be put within that complex, that overall strategy which I think now is sort of pretend, it doesn't exist at the moment. And I think it is important so that decisions like this can be made within a er, a framework that we've all, you know, been part of, and na are happy with agreed to. Though I think that that will be happening in the next cycle. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah, that's very helpful. So could we get back to the recommendations. Agreed, the recommendations? Agreed. Thank you. Next er, item is er on er the consultation paper on the gypsy site policy and illegal camping. Thank you Chairer. Erm It's on page ninety nine. Yes, page ninety nine of this er, thank you Chairer. The er consultation and on the eighteen of August erm was circulated to many members on the fifth of the September, a thirteen page document erm, it was true to say that the er consultation paper contained some fairly radical proposals for changes in dealing with er gypsies and travellers. Give them ! Erm amongst other things erm ceasing the responsibility of local authorities to provide sites erm have the new powers to move er illegal or unauthorised erm on, from the land including er, season caravans in certain instances erm the curtailment by the government of er, grants for local authorities to provide and construct sites having spent fifty six million pounds erm doing just that since nineteen seventy eight according to the report. Er, various changes in planning proposals erm, and indeed erm encouraging travellers who are perhaps no long travellers, those who are resident on the sites to move progressively into government housing. Er, a particular concern at the time of writing the report was the position concerning the long outstanding proposals to develop to redevelop the two sites in Harlow erm to date we have no information from the county, er, there was scheduled to be erm, the meeting due to take place on the twenty second of September but the county er cancelled that meeting so it's impossible at this stage to give any further comment on that erm although I believe that matter's being taken up. Er comments are required in to the by the thirteenth of November er, and the Associations of District Councils have asked us to comment indeed by next week er, so member's views on the consultation paper are . Chairer? Well, er I've got quite a few comments but I'll ask first, Bill? The Yes, but On the last comment that er Chris made er bringing us and the letter to county about the the failure of the meeting on the twenty second cos we feel that they are just lying down to the situation and not pursuing a pursuing the D A P about whatsoever and erm we are, certainly in John's letter probably get it signed tonight complaining and asking for a a meeting as soon as possible because we feel that that they ought to be pursuing the question of these two sites, they're dragging their feet! On the question of the government's proposals I'm entirely opposed to the er the idea that they should wash their hands of their er, obligations er, the nineteen sixty eight act as as a number of members know er, gave it as they are the duty of a local authority to acquire some sites for gypsies some local authorities er, obeyed that and er they actually provide the sites, like Harlow, other authorities just ignored it! Completely ignored it! So if they, if they removed the local authorities judging we'll be in a terrible position! An absolutely diabolical situation because then the the the local authorities that have continued to avoid doing what they ought to have done will be rubbing their hands with glee while the others who have a a social conscience, a moral social conscience will be put under tremendous pressure! So, we must oppose that and er also they're asking for new powers er to move illegal travellers from land this is just another device because of their failure to provide sufficient sites throughout the country and if the of Essex County Council do their job er they they don't need these new powers, what authority ought to be ha , er having are powers to provide some er, camping places for people. And er the question of the grants as well, I'm opposed to the fact that they they're going to if we don't hurry up er, these two sites in Harlow will not, never be completed! If they stop the altogether we have to act very quickly. So I'm against all their proposals, I think they're an absolute disaster! Chairer? Thank you Bill. Er Could I just ask a question? Yes. Could you tell er could I mean, have you got any information about the grant here? Er, because er our submission for a grant regarding these two sites were submitted prior to all this coming forth Yes. so therefore, it must be granted. Now, will,tha I had hoped that we'd have an information that we'd have information at this meeting, it's the thirtieth now! Mm. Right? And I had hoped we'd get the information, have we got any information on that? Well, it's a hundred percent grant that the D of E gives to er the er county council, so then it's really it's transferred to us isn't it? Except the payment of er, the erm th the manager of the sites or the warden of the sites. But Chairer I have spoken to officers at county in the last few days to Mm. try and get some information on this they felt that they were confident that at the end of the day that erm, approval would be given but erm I I I asked for it in writing and they said we wouldn't be getting that. Oh! Well We would be getting it? Ah we wouldn't, you wouldn't. We wouldn't be getting it. Well I ca , I'll ask a question then so that will have to be answered. But, in reply to er Terry when yes, of course, we should get it if it was prior to their new act er but er the there's no morality with this government I'm afraid Terry, as you and I well know! Lorna? Right, thanks Chairer. I've already put in our comments in writing on this to to Chris and I'll just sort of draw some of them save me repeating them. Erm certainly, as a group we we welcome the fact that there is a provision for travellers in Harlow on the two permanent sites and we also welcome the upgrading er, of the to to happen, although I very much hope it doesn't . Erm I'll go through the consultation paper and pick out sort of paragraph by paragraph and any that we particular agree or disagree with. Er, certainly in, in the first paragraph we would say that we have drawn attention over the years to the nuisance of illegal parking erm, by travellers particularly in Stewards erm while travellers have the right to live their own lifestyle we also believe that other residents have the right to live free from that kind of nuisance and problem and that it does need to be addressed somehow. However, this definitely isn't the way to do it! Erm we will continue to say that Harlow should have applied for designation years ago erm it's very Sorry can you repeat that? Harlow should of applied for a designation a long time ago if Harlow had been designated then surrounding councils would have had to live up their responsibilities to provide adequate sites for travellers which they have not done and successive governments have also failed to apply the caravan sites act nineteen sixty eight adequately. If they'd done so, if they'd insisted that local authorities did provide the sites they are supposed to provide I believe there would now be sufficient pitches for all travellers and that they wouldn't be used for illegal parking erm at the level that there is at the moment. Er, on paragraph nine the government's own figures show that there is a shortfall of glee while the others who have a a social conscience, a and that they've mixed, the site provision isn't keeping pace with the growth of the number of caravans and yet, what it's proposing to do in this paper will make the situation worse by removing any incentive erm and any requirement on local authorities actually to provide the sites that are needed to make up that shortfall and it's quite clear that what this is about is actually what it is happening in housing in general and that is shifting provision from the pri , from the public to the private sector. Erm there's also a very strange statement in paragraph which says that the nineteen sixty eight act is intended to provide a network of sites to enable gypsies to move around or settle, but in practice many gypsies are settled on permanent sites and it seems to me that that is the logical result of having insufficient pitches in that if th you know there aren't enough pitches for you, you are not going to get up and go from a permanent that you've been living on and move off in case you can't one somewhere else and that seems to be the inevitable logic of the government's own failure to make sure that there is adequate provisions in local sites. Erm the caravan sites act nineteen sixty eight er, paragraph fifteen did actually, I think address the provision government sites quite well, or it would have if it had actually been properly implemented in that there was a carrot and stick, there was stick or requirement for a site and the carrot is actually being able to apply to designation whether you lived up to that. Now it seems that successive governments have just haven't lived up to their obligation to wield the stick, and Harlow council just haven't had the sense to reach for the carrot in that that local people are caught in the middle! Erm on paragraph twenty erm the government's proposals will penalise all the camping which takes place outside recognised sites while at the same time I've already said, removing any incentive or obligation for local authorities to provide enough sites anyway so i it's, it's a a total squeeze that on the one hand the government is restricting the number of pitches and then penalising everybody who hasn't got one! Erm paragraph twenty one, we'd certainly oppose any move to give local authorities the right to cease homes of travellers erm especially in view of the shortage of the good pitches I that is just totally and I don't think that that's on, I hope we can oppose that. Erm I don't think the on paragraph twenty three and consequently the suggestion that that kind of permission really are realistic at all, erm I think this government is totally obsessed with owner occupation at the expense of all kinds of housing, whether it's permanent, rented or or anything else! Erm and this seems to be the whole kind of class of which the government is coming to this this document. I I killed my cat with a fucking spade We are at the scene of the crime Mr what did you see? That was Ashley not me, no You absolute bastard Mr what did you see of the crime? What, what, explain to me what you saw please. I was walking my dog right through the common and this great big black fat hairy man came along and sharpened his great big long tool into, into this cattle, the bad thing about it was the fucking cow exploded The cow exploded did you say? Yes the cow exploded. Thank you very much Mr for your comment this is Wain reporting for news at six. We are watching the brides of Christ probably never ever to be seen again in the year two thousand and fifty six. Janice is writing away on her pad. Shaun's sitting cross legged And Darren looks like an oversized leprechaun, all dressed in green and ready to go, meanwhile I'm reporting this excellent news to you guys if you are listening out there from the national library association, er, er, er, er we, ee, ee, ee, ee, ee hello, hello What does that word mean in the year twenty five, twenty thousand? Oh I've got to phone my ma Blik blik slogger logger a Masturbate explain masturbate by the way Well if you take a and cross it with a fuel injection between her and nitro oxide And take with crystals from the you'll put it with a box of speed with about seven hundred leggings, twelve per hour. I'd like you to ring us back up in the past and ask us, tell us if there's a war and how often you have sex in them days. We do it seven days a, seven, seven times a day, seven times a week, in the year nineteen ninety two Excluding bank holiday Mondays fifty two weeks a year excluding bank holiday Mondays and Christmas Day excluding bank holiday Mondays and Christmas Day all too pissed Thank you very much for listening and this is er, er I should work for the B B C shouldn't I as a news reporter this is Nigel That's a burp you may not experience that word from where you come from Yes by the year two thousand and fifty six comes, burps may be anonymous Smells alright but there you go Here mum how am I supposed to get that hi fi up to Reggie's house when I can't remember the way through that fucking maze of flats with you Well I'll come with you, that's no trouble wants that one, but I'm gonna get him a little one to go on there Next time I see him, I'll probably see him tomorrow no I, you usually see him round town, so I say I'll arrange a time Yeah that's if he still wants it, I suppose he does Oh he hit the flag old time, bastard Did any one see the from that van yesterday? No All Joanne said was did you catch up with Wayne weren't it? Yeah oh, it does add a bit more cleanliness to it Wayne, mind you the rice is so are you, well you eat it the way you want to do it and I'll eat it all up Oh ya, ya, ya, ya nice and rich ha oh ya, ya, ya, ya now I've got the mini ones I can play some new chords you see oh ya, ya, ya, ya, oh ya, ya, ya it's called a midi ya, ya, oh ya, ya, ya I know what it's called but I would like it da, ya, da, ya Best get a stand for it Oh have you? I'll fix that, how you gonna put my fence up for me? Mm, mm, mm where's it got to be? Well Is this on an employed basis innit? In what way employed basis? Because I can't Am I being employed to put this fence up for you? I haven't got any money if that's what you're after? I hope That's what employment means don't it? Well I've got no money Wayne, don't forget I'm still on sick pay until next week then I get me full week's money That's true, that's and I've helped you as much as I possibly can in the past, a few weeks, to the best of my ability If you don't get a job, I will get a job for the time being and you want me to take some money off your bill, you can get rid of some of that rubbish out in that fucking shed, in the back of that van Yeah Don't wanna No mum's giving you a fair, what she say? Claire Oh I want them sheds cleared out cos I want to get that garden sorted out for the summer There's piss all jobs in there I know, er, well where the path is, the only problem is where the edge finishes at the other end, at the bottom end, right, there's gonna be a gap there and I wanna close that gap off somehow. Where? At the bot , where the edge is right? Yeah It'd been there right near the gate look where the gate supposed to be Hang on let me show, let me find a bit of bloody paper here, silly bloody arse You'd have to dig a couple of holes and you'd have to concrete the bugger in No it won't just sit there Right, that's the path right, this is where the edge finishes, yeah, this is the front edge, yes? Yeah This is the path coming up to the house and you've got the green like that between there and there, there's a gap, I don't know how I'm gonna do that No I don't know what the fuck you're on about here, it's upside down, where's the house? There's the house, right Yeah there's the window Yeah that's the path Yeah and that's the path green to the alleyway Yeah and this is the path coming onto the big main path Oh right, yeah I get you right, this is the edge Yeah and it stops about there, between there and that path is a gap That's alright just do it straight down right, yeah, but that means there's gonna be ground on this side, what I want to do is come as close as I can to this path, don't worry about this You've got a gate there Well I, I might just block it off get another piece of wood and put it in there and just nail that fucking lot up and block off completely, otherwise Nick's, if Nicholas is playing in the garden he'll be out of there like a shot, so you're gonna get one post there, say one in the middle and one at the end. Stop the fucking cats coming and shitting in the garden Mm And you've got the gate out there, repair that, put it up somehow, well it's only a temporary job get some gates probably down the dump or something. Well if you get through some of that rubbish, that's beginning to smell You talk to him about that It's beginning to smell if you can make arrangements maybe we can sort something out between us There's loads of shit out there got to nearly all of it's gotta go really, there's two gas fires out there If we can flog them we might be able to bloody flog them to somebody Wayne Ah get a couple of I'd flog my necklace first I'm so fucking skint You flogged it? No Oh, Alfie might buy a fire off you dear I doubt it I wouldn't er bother asking him Yeah, well you don't need to put concrete in it because if you can little bit with a sledgehammer If you have to put concrete in concrete, you have to cement it in Well it's only a bloody temporary job innit? You want a sledgehammer don't you? Oh yeah while I think of it No while I think of it, you owe Maggie thirty one pound ninety five P, I've paid thirty pound for you up to now Thirty one, you might as well say thirty two quid Talk of Maggie, when you see her tomorrow say Wayne said he's not gonna give you any more money until he gets his videos back, cos she's got two of my videos, my Razor video and my IN X S. Well I'll just ask her for your videos first Just say Wayne said can he have his videos and if she don't cough them up in the week, say you don't get any more money until he gets his videos back. Well I asked her how much you owed and she said thirty one ninety five Say thirty two quid dear No that's right Yeah well it's only a couple of bloody pennies short of money Wayne wanted to know what you Thirty quid whoop fucking new man Well it was sixty See really all you need to do is pull it, you've got two posts, how high do you want to go with the posts, about that high? Which is about what four foot? That's all you've got to go, so them poles have got to be cut down to five foot, two five foots, four, four five foots First thing to do is level the fucking ground off Well the spade, Martin has got the spade Yeah and they That spade's crap, it fucking bows Oh what else was I gonna say? Oh do you want to stay in the social club? Well I did say that, yeah Well, what, what, what Well what for? Snap Well if there are any trips I can get them cheaper can't I? You get them cheaper anyway without being in the Social No you won't Yes you will, oh yes you will, I fucking see to that, seeing as they couldn't even send me a fucking get well card It's only fifteen P a week, it's not exactly expensive No, but it all adds up I was sitting there the other day adding up your things Right now you can discuss with Wayne about the sheds I don't want to worry about sheds for now. As I say I was sitting there adding it up, a pound for this and a pound for that and your meal, a fiver for Maggie, I'm twenty pound short off you Yeah was cutting house keep short Yeah alright, alright We're not having a go at you Wayne, we're just talking dear See I was just adding it up you know, it's a hell of a bloody whack out when you, you know, when you're short Especially rent week Oh I'm bored I suppose that will it take us to granddad's? No Let me ask him, he's driving the damn thing Well it'll take fucking ages and it'll be very uncomfortable for you, whoever's sitting in the back. It'll be me, because I can stretch me legs out It'll be very uncomfortable sat in the back What's in the back there at the moment? A couple of cushions, it's very low to the floor as well Is it? and there's a lot of holes in that floor, if you fell through it Yeah can you get three in the front? Mm, mm no way hos No way, oh Bless you Squashed me and Martin in the front, I keep hitting his leg when I fucking change gear Yeah Bless you, now you see, now straight away I've asked him a simple question, he's given me a simple, straightforward answer And we've said bless you three times Best to wait until get a car and now, now it's eliminated you see That's a point when we gonna get this fucking car off of John? When I get a hundred and eighty quid I said I've just gone back Will you shut up Shut up Bless you, stupid mummy Shut up I suppose that the fucking no let him renew Let him renew Wayne cos our phone bill our phone bill I can't afford it any more you be ten P a time I'm gonna move it back over here Yeah Bless you Is Shaun there please, it's Wayne, how dare you, hello, hello, I'm sorry to trouble you there's an ostrich on your phone line You'll be on our bloody phone line if you don't move your ass Bless you Ah? Oh wow, amazing you going out with or, yeah, no I've got yeah so, before seven, well, yeah alright, you alright? He's right next door to Reggie's flats when you go down and pick him up you can do that for me Ask if she was what was you gonna say dear? What was you gonna say dear? What, what was you gonna say? ah? Chris yeah alright bolting, puppy, dog Yeah I know that He had to go to Wales, son went to Wales to pick it up yesterday something to do with Joanne's family or something she was on about Oh I don't know about that something on about it's got a, it's one of them little square Welsh terriers Hooray Welsh terrier he brought it in this morning Is that thing recording? Yeah, I ain't said nothing to Wayne He'd soon fucking hear you How much you said you swear I'm sneezing more than anything What's it all about then really? Speaking, just, normal conversation? Yeah just, to tape the conversation Yeah but if you're having It might be something private Wayne Yeah It doesn't matter Yeah it does matter to us It does matter to us it does to me Well I'd known if you said anything private, and I wipe it off No something you er, something you've got to be very careful of, because that can also be discriminating in, in a court No she said to me Ah, you mean, might say something privately here, not knowing that switched on and it might be about somebody else and that person might know that person er with the evidence I don't you never no, oh use at work by all means yeah But she said to ask people I'd love to do her work tell them that you're recording out of common courtesy as was, but I didn't think you two would mind because it's, well I don't know interesting, interesting talking to you Might of done mightn't we? things like that I don't know Really exciting that is innit? What time you going out? When your way to the fox twenty to six? Twenty to seven As I said you could take that down Reggie's then I haven't got petrol mum Well you're going down there I've got to drive down there and back up here, then I've got to go to Darren's then I've Well how long you gonna be? got to drive back home again When you gonna do that then? Well I can drive to Shaun's then go Darren's, then leave the van there and then pick, drive us back home again, but I won't have enough to go backwards and forwards, backwards and forwards all the bloody time, it's nearly on zippo I say Reggie's on the way Yeah that means coming back over here don't it, I'm not driving around like with my fucking hi fi in the back Oh I What, like you're going out to a pool in it? Yeah, our got to come anyway, er I don't know if I've got enough money to bloody pay him, it's a bad week Yeah your bad week these days Oh if I pay him I won't be able to pay the Provident bloke tomorrow night It's money mum I don't care See what I mean What? When you say things like that Well there you go that's personal in this family They say it's anonymous, they just log it on computer and it's just, to show people in the future what we spoke like in the nineties Yeah We speak like motherfuckers I know Didn't say that into Tom I know what we do mother er him, don't shout in my bloody ear hole, cor does he shout will do the apple and pears at number ten erm, how am I gonna pay the Provi bloke tomorrow darling? do the jock strap I can't Lend us ten grand mum I didn't even pay Chris today cos I didn't have enough money Don't look at me I can't give you no more bloody loot Lend us forty million Ha, ha, he wants fifty four pound fifty today I can't even have a bet on, on Saturday Oh what a sheer catastrophe that is It fucking is, I like backing me ponies I've a today erm Dirty little sod sat here with Marcus and I said oh, I got a, got a flash, and he say I got a flash or something Dirty sod it's like, it's either king or knight something, knights or kings something has won a race Just what? Just watch, I'll put the Teletext on, out of all the races there was one there King's Fountain, first, it had, it had only just come first and I'd switched it on, I went wow King's Fountain? Yeah I don't think it were It did It didn't It did, I'll show you, don't piss me off mate Oh wait a minute I shall see cos I'll have you I shall tell you three, three, six, three That's what I want, there it is look King's Fountain Oh yeah four, six Yeah Weird innit? Have you got a pound coin I can borrow of you dear? I owe you a pound, yeah, I can't give it to you dear because I've still got exactly a ten pound note dear and I'm waiting for the pools lady dear Cos I Now as soon as she arrives dear I give you I put one in here last night your pound dear Oh it's just dropped, did you hear that go? No Oh Now quick, do you know we're fucking shaking, mm No, it's thirteen hours I want He reckons if he wants any more money when he comes round here tell him tell him there's scrap I'll tell him Yeah, you know why don't you because that side bits down the back, he probably thinks you've been bloody fiddling with it. You can't no way Well he said if he accuses me of fiddling with the telly I'll punch his fucking all you have, all you have to say to him is dad's back at work, he's not been using the telly He's done that and that's it I was gonna say kiss my arse motherfucker Yes that's it exactly, him as well is there nothing on rehearsals oh that crap Brinley dinner time oh she's gone to look at Oh fucking hell a Metro, I told her if she sees one she likes, get it Don't keep telling me I don't want to fucking know Too late , Tom come in and said he see Angie right, up the Wale Road It's discreet this I'm telling Wayne Well I'm not interested Fucking Brinley's a big fucking tart as far as I'm concerned there are young man are you coming to discover us with young Sam? Get the fuck out of here, how's he gonna get six quid for a ticket? Exactly for a start Sam might pay exactly I pay for it Who wants to go to a poxy fucking disco anyway it's crap You always say you like discos Yeah but not with a bunch of old fucking faggots running around There won't be old faggots, there's new faggots coming down from Salisbury get in with their walking stick oh no they won't, in that case he'd hold a fucking dinner and dance, he wouldn't hold a disco It'll be full of old faggots and dickheads Not from my head office there won't That's right, the and big fat girls There's Tom though, he's with us, hooray Lucky bastard How old are you? I shall be forty nine this July I told them all you're forty seven Oh thank you very much She said how old's your dad and father then? Are we talking about Poppa? Fuck knows forty eight I think, I don't know, forty eight, forty seven behave Please, please I've got to go to the loo in a minute anyway after I steal one of your cigarettes, notice the word cigarettes instead of the word fags oh I don't know, I think I'll go and sell my body, might make a couple of quid and leg it down the I get it hockedy pockedy the Rock of Gibraltar You ain't been better your missus Good evening How are you? Well if you say yes to my first question, I'll answer you, can I have ten thousand pounds? No Well that's, that then, alright then There's Nigel aah Aah Nigel aah, Have a race with a Lada today Martin, got seventy five out of this on the motorway I told you not to fucking thrash the bollocks out of it Was it thrashing the bollocks out of it? Only do fifty Wayne, you fucking blow the bastard engine up, you'll fucking get a sore I would think so no, no look out Whey, Fucking idiot what you doing? Oh listen You stupid guy let's be good citizens shall we and let everyone through Here are, race that fucking whore and get her out the bloody way Let's all be very good citizens and kill everyone man, fucking stupid cunt fucking stupid bastard Very bastard, very bastard There you go, don't get struck out drop me down tomorrow right One o'clock out No you pick me up yeah outside bye now I won't be able to drive this tonight it's got no fucking petrol in it, what a cunt, stressed out have you got any more money left? Fucking slap another fiver on the bitch You'd never slap anyone No it's come on you Lada shit, get out the fucking way Yeah what you doing man? Look at this, he's fucking after me look do you want me to take you home? Please Don't say please just say yes, let's go No Fucking old man Fucking kill I love it when a plan doesn't work how dry I am, how dry I am, nobody knows how dry I am will you get me whisky for me? Da, la, dan, dan get off and milk it, hooray It's not our milkman is it? Fucking hell mate where you going you prick? Fucking arms off in a minute hooray, sorry love, sorry I'm a laugh today, I'm in a good mood today well I'm not quite sure Virgil,Virgil , what are you doing driving a vehicle, I didn't know you could drive, haven't seen me drive motherfucker, get her in here and fuck her shit nice white ones, use Persil? Get off and milk it hooray go on pop in for a pint, wife won't mind go on pop in for a pint, wife won't mind, hooray What's this stupid boy doing mummy, mummy as well, oh look at him he's fucking hard, he walks like a hard man, Oh he's having a test isn't he? Take him on the outside take him on the outside, take him on the inside, take him on the outside, inside, outside, let him through outside, inside, in squeeze them between the lot of them look this lane is faster than your lane, no my lane is faster than yours leg it, what the fuck's going on? Queue Queue, queue barny magrew leg it, run, leg it I know a short cut, it's a long shot but it might just work Don't go over the roundabout that way No I was gonna go through Crin , to the fucking tunnel at Cricket's Way You can't the blew up So got through there, it goes, we slip in them trees, here you are, you can drive through that other open path and out he other side, whey It's illegal Who gives a shit? Hooray, I, what a boy, you can go to King Arthur's from here? Fly Let's fly along, wings I'm waiting for sex, oh yeah , Stuart looking out they're the banana boy's yeah fucking Doris, move you fat bitch Trying to cut you up the arse Trying to cut up a Lada, get over this thing now and fuck is your bollocks I'm going on the second lane, hooray Hooray, okay go on, lovely lovely Lovely lovely Oh I can't to shoot his loaf, I don't think he's brushed up on his cream that he dropped look Look at the state of her he dropped all his porridge that was fucking well crafty, ah the indicators are still going oh you stupid man, keep going hey ho and off we go with a run legged run, run, run, hey ho and off we go la, la, la, la, la ninety nine mate please, with a flake and lots of sauce revenging boys, revenge of the giant cucumber lotion Oh everybody out, quick, get out hooray I've had this, I've had this tape on since I've left my house some of this lot ain't happening god stop here and now, turn round now Does he stall it? No he doesn't No he doesn't See you tomorrow Okay my little sweetness bye, bye have I told you lately that I love you, oh yeah hurry up cos I've gotta get out of here, I've got to boot it, is there anything behind? I don't know squash it I mean is there anything your way over there? No Shut up kid It ain't that loud mate, it's only a fucking seven fifty Wake up mate er, cos you'll have a slippy fan belt for supper I suppose you wanna go home now No you've got another six years, whey Look out Fucking shit herself it's fucking hot in there mate er it's probably a load of noisy engine on there like crunching the gear oh dear Ha, great turbo Watch out mind that granny Whey, shit Get over you twat Stop me with in reverse No, stop it, doing a fucking hundred mile an hour you cunt shit man a hundred and twenty Fucking hey must be lunatics it's only a single lane carriageway hurar hurar and it's a one way street, dead end fucking inverted brain leg it of the moon, the sun What's this what This is how the British speak nowadays, during the nineties, it's a load of bullshit, teach us more proper English bitch, was that Tom? Oh bastard Shit, get over this side Groan that gear box, crunch it well Do it georgdi off the ground hand brake, skidded down the hill what did you do that for mate? Oh a caterpillar ran out the road in front of me which one, the bloke or the dog? watch it mate I'm gonna have they all queue up, they're not gonna let me out though the bastards one nil Seven nil Oh god I'm getting them wow, what fucking happened there? Hit that fucking bollard I was looking at that bloke in the Metro going fuck me aah He wasn't impressed Ooh he's turning round hey he's coming, hey he's flying up behind He ain't, he's pissed off, you won't catch me I'll be gone, I mean ee ah what you doing I haven't got no petrol to fucking, drive round the town you cunt So the old dear's, hooray I wanna watch fucking Neighbours in a minute Oh shut up Watch Neighbours Gaybours everybody needs a gaybour get some money for petrol I'll be round the town later on Phone later on ah, Ron, Ron later, later on about elevenish Eleven Fuck off don't look like he's allowed to see her Ain't she going to work, I'll pick her up from work Go on then My god Who's that? the town'll be chock-a-block Oh dear Could of made that if I had a Lamborgini Go pulled up my mum last night, she's been going fucking apeshit on me Yeah? Yeah so I won't be getting any money off of her Shortie'll give us some money for petrol, he's thick Ain't got any money Never fucking has some one stoned it They did fucking Ghostbusters look, hooray That's the one we went to London ther Right I put this together ah very quickly just before you came in, I thought it would be useful to get some feedback on the education the two educational events that have taken place so far, now unfortunately I couldn't go to Topping Printing but you were there Ann Were you there as an I wasn't, I wasn't there I'm afraid I thought you were, right none of us were there, the feedback that I got was that this was the at that it was extremely good but in actual fact it went on until twenty to nine at night goodness me but fifty per cent of the people who said they were coming didn't turn up and most of them didn't phone in or anything like that which was a little bit of an upset for the host erm and consequently there was a bit put in that's right because he discussed it with me yes erum was he upset? A little bit I think that he was just concerned that perhaps there might've been other people who might've wanted to come and if people had rung up and you had had a waiting list something could've been done about it There was no waiting list er but I think the other thing is that it's just a question of the people in our business supposed to be being professional communicators yes and you're not commissioned communicating professionally or particularly politely if you don't ring up that day or the next day anybody understands if you have a puncture a road accident a client crashes but there's nothing to actually stop you ringing up the next day and saying so sorry you couldn't make it that's right and there'd a much worse instance similarly with the I P R at when forty two people had signed up for something and only five appeared ah ha and I think my concern is that I P R and B A I E might being to get a bad name with hosts if that got known mhm yes that's a bit embarrassing well talking headlines we have fifteen people wanted to come. In the event eight did, but, everybody who couldn't come phoned up or got somebody to phone right up on their behalf so the message got through it would have been nice if we'd got ten at Talking Headlines this room takes ten comfortably um but Jack had done his homework he did a super presentation had everybody rolling around in aha laughter so that by the time we came to do the five practical ev exercises you know everybody was in a very relaxed and jolly mood but I think that's was it's about but from the results that we were getting from the practical exercises clearly what he said had taken root you know roll key words, roll them around in your mind er try running through letters of the alphabet to match up with your key word chains and you know if if if the word is ball try roll see if you can get it to rhyme and ultimately the creme de la creme is if you can actually get the title of a song or yes a well-known phrase or the name of a television game and then, so that had obviously his his delivery I found very solid, I mean I didn't find it particularly humorous but I mean people weren't laughing that much were they? I mean smiling smiling standing up at this end was a lot were you here when he went through all the old headlines of er yes yes , yes I was surprised people I suppose most people have seen those before actually oh I mean these are classics classics Oh I mean many of them were taken out of a book which had in the front price five and sixpence so a so I think that went very well and er I mean Jack was much encouraged by it so much so that he's going to actually offer to do it for another organisation that he's connected with aha he was was so pleased with the way the way it worked out he had never every done anything like that before oh right that's nice. Is he retired now? he's retired now, yeah and sometimes well he used to go in and help Carl out at the Scottish Office when you were away producing your sprogs he edited he did the issues he did very well yeah better headlines than we did he sometimes comes in and helps me out as well so very first class chap if you know anybody that needs a good headline writer Jack's your man yep Upcoming events. Talking audio visual that's an event that is taking place with S S K in Glasgow on the second of February I'm disappointed by the number of people who have said that they want to go largely because we've gone out of our way to do something in Glasgow It's always the same and the Glasgow people aren't biting yeah how many people have you got? I can probably tell you I have phoned and said could you please put the word around your people um well there's yourself Ann Packard erm What time is it George? It's six o'clock at S S K so that's erm Mind you I've had an S S K presentation before so is three of Mercer's is four I would probably go through would be five would go through that would be six I'm going to try to get to that one George I'll let you know Aye, if we could get ten it would be nice it would be nice but I mean they were sort of saying anything over twenty four and were toiling a bit. One of the interesting things about S S K is that they clearly see us as an organisation they want to court. They put up a prize at the awards ceremony they're prepared to do all the art work for nothing or at cost price for the awards ceremony they laid on this evening for us now if three people turn up at their evening they gonna say as we putting our money in the right organisation yeah that's right so it's more than just an education visit here it's actually its a real P R visit isn't it is it worth actually circulating any of the P R firms in Glasgow like what's happening is that the membership handbook should have been out last week but I think it's actually going out physically today and I've done a reminder which'll be mailed out with it erm making one or two little pointed remarks about blah blah blah this is a very important event and please note it is not in Edinburgh you know erm S S K are very supportive of us we should you know take advantage of this very important but were they really hoping for twenty four people? They didn't know what they were hoping for quite honestly yes yes but I said that you know eighteen might be a push but I wouldn't be surprised if we got twelve or fourteen at that time of course we hadn't actually had any education events cos the one that we scheduled has been cancelled so I was perhaps a bit naive about how many people actually turn out to these things Yeah Glasgow you would really be pushed to get though mind you the attendance at the Black Museum was quite good ah ha, was that an I P R thing? No no that was ours right, okay so anyway that erm one's causing a little bit of concern, I've got another one scheduled for March which I was going to centre on here where will come along and talk to us about the Editor and the Royal Visit and you know ee ach dear me how glad I am to be away from the Scottish Office ha ha everybody's like a giggly virgin on their first date when you phone them up and ha ha ha I'll need to get permission and have you spoken to and you know and we may need to talk and all I want you to do is come along for I know our mutual it helps them if we know how it works it helps us if we know what problems they encounter yeah he's talked to me actually as well about dealing with people who from the inside have dealt working with him doing royal visits because obviously that's quite useful a lesson for them to get over to people I mean we could probably both do a royal visit ourselves, I've done several and I mean I have done several since I left the Scottish Office as well which is quite good and I thought that I might put Sandy at his ease by telling a couple of amusing incidents that have happened post the Scottish Office days yes er where I was asked by remember yes oh who was the Navy P R O. He wandered into my office is a chubby Falstaffian figure who smokes a curved pipe whilst you're twiggy like me mm gotta gotta royal visit coming up he said you've worked at the Scottish Office do you know anything about them and I said yes tell the Scottish Office they'll do all the a Royal navy one I've got to do it I said fine when is it? Tomorrow ah have you had a dress rehearsal? There's one happening today in ten minutes I've got a car waiting outside so I said right I'll come down and give you a you a hand with it and it was the re-dedication or re-commissioning of a ship right a very small ship, a frigate, and er the captain was at most Lieutenant Commander and the Princess Royal was doing the re-dedication and because it was the winter it was being done inside a big shed, that's the background. We got there and the Lieutenant Commander Captain who looked about thirty two or thirty three ah was about six foot two with a great shock of blond hair and of course I immediately nicknamed him Admiral because he looked Germanic yes, and a he had the same unyielding attitude to life that Germans would have and a very bad temper. So we got there and he said right okay you're the press chappy he's right I've put your press people over there so while respect Lieutenant Commander that really won't do because everything including the Band of the Royal Marines is between them and the Princess Royal so we argued about this and the compromise eventually was that that everybody would have to stay there until the ceremony started and then we could bring the stills photographers round to the end and up to one side where it was all happening mainly to get a picture of his wife cutting the cake. This is a tradition in the Royal Navy when a ship's being re-commissioned the youngest rate and the Captain's wife cut a ceremonial cake cake using the Captain's sword right right the royal personage stands to one side and smiles so you know we could could come in for this. So I told the press the next morning who were mega grumpy at all of this and I don't blame them, so when the ceremony started Pat took the stills photographer round to the front and the television guys as the Princess began to inspect er the crew pulled all their gear through the Band of the Royal Marines over their toe caps under the tubas and pressed their cameras under the nose of the Princess Royal which wouldn't have happened had the Lieutenant Commander been prepared to listen to us and of course you could see him getting angrier and angrier oh dear then when his great moment came and his wife came to cut the cake all the photographers suddenly decided they needed to clean the lenses of their camera and his wife's picture was never taken . So the message I think got through so that I thought was a nice tale yes , good one yes I'll tell you a lovely story when we had the Queen at the day before when we had had the dress rehearsal I'd been out to erm London to pick erm up an old lady who's now dead, who very seldom got out and was pretty well house-bound to come and see the rehearsal as a little Sunday treat yes On the way down on that stretch of road from death one to death two I call them, the roundabouts I suddenly realised if we were going to have a rehearsal we needed to have a bouquet of flowers didn't we so I leapt out of the car picked some weeds tied them up with a piece of strong so that the chap of our staff who was going to be in front of me was going to hold them during the rehearsal whilst I dashed up to play first of all the Lord Provost and then the Queen or the Lady Provost as she then was. Anyway the next day Brocklesby is berthing and I can see the captain pointing at me, my hem was showing my petticoat was showing my hat off and afterwards I said to him erm what was so funny oh he said I was telling the Queen about you having those weeds for the rehearsal yesterday and she thought it was terribly funny so it took me a long time to live down my weeds the lady with the weeds that's right Brocklebury's a minesweeper minesweeper yeah but mind you we had much worse a problem that day because we had two sets of sniffer dogs who didn't like something and the first lot that were in and didn't like something that we'd and though they went away and the bomb squad came they went away they they had a problem with their vehicles and the second lot of dogs didn't like the area either Oh right in the meantime Brocklesby was approaching and this one horrendous photograph of me looking very harassed you can well imagine and my father ever pompous when he saw this photograph said huh where were your directors, wasn't one of them in charge, and I said no they were away having lunch, they were just going to arrive when they you know, anyway? It's all good fun royal visits I mean the last that's right one I did was with Caledonian Paper at Irvine and the Finns or the Swedes whoever own Finns they are were absolutely paranoid we rehearsed it and we rehearsed it and I mean I didn't mind they were paying the bill for and I literally with a college took up residence for several days before it in a local hotel and we went through it in every fine detail yes and we knew exactly what photographs were going to be taken who was shaking who's hand and you know. Right come the morning arrived and and somebody else I can't remember who though, and there we were all ready to go and were walking with the press into the massive great shed where they roll the paper and make it a massive place the size of a couple of football pitches, we were just going in the door and somebody said to me they're no gonna be using their flash guns are they? I said yes why, they cannae do that mister he said it'll affect all the sensors on the machines oh ah the whole place was gonna come to a halt if anybody fired a flash gun and furiously Fred grabbed the royal people and I grabbed the Finns and we started reorganising the present so they could take place under the enormous great windows that there are in and nobody had said at any time a flash gun will stop the machines. These are the sort of things that are oh no where's that going to be? Well do here I think and when? It's March sometime erm do you have a rough date? aye you've got a firm date haven't you? let's find it, you see the trouble with efficiency is that I find er so much paper if you give me my basket I think you'll find it in there actually The fifteenth rings a bell fifteenth of Feb er no fifteenth of March no March rings a bell er because I a circular out about it right fifteenth of March in here ya I thought that that sounded right okay right what day of the week is the fifteenth? It's a Tuesday a Tuesday yeah okay good right I wonder if that I'm now being serious is this room big enough if a lot of people want to come? A lot of people won't come, I mean I erm erm fairly confident now that if it's B A I E only we even out at about eight, I mean twenty can put their names down eight will turn up yes yes, I suppose actually really you see it's like the network evenings that there used to be in that ghastly little pub at the West End ah ha, maybe we should get a licence for this definitely all I'm allowed to retail in here is Morrisons whisky well that's right, you can provide the whisky and we'll hire the glasses that's the way round the licensing regulations erm, right what time will it be? aye is it not in there? no, only then Sandy hasn't given me a time but I think I'd suggested to him between six and seven I think people like that they don't have to go home and but talking estimating the next one is that the one that we'd originally called Talking Print Buying that I'd got yes so let's dwell on that because you've got some information Carolyn, you've got some information Ann yes, well I mean about two lots of minutes ago ah ha I put in a square bracket on the minutes right in October I think it was yes you're right which I couldn't find today did I not in the actual end approved version does it not say that I've got the tape and people fixed it's blue paper that it came off the fax machine I'm sure er no, no, no this is the minute which was posted to you before I went to the States right, then it won't be on blue paper if it was posted but you did put down that two that's right indicated that they're willing to come along right and you've got I've got the by Manager for H M S O willing tremendous to take part which should be quite interesting I haven't really discussed it in detail with him because I wasn't sure who else was taking part and what sort of format we're thinking of having right , let's kick that about then Scottish Homes have offered us their facilities, they would act as host and would you think that was six o'clock again or would you like to make six o'clock seems to be a nice time, Scottish Homes said they would lay on coffee and and what number of people can they take? Again, er they were talking at the higher reach of our number twenty wasn't it? Aye They said something like that, they seemed fairly relaxed erm now what numbering is is this one that there would be any value opening up to others for the whole thing I think that if you've only got twenty spaces then that's difficult because we've got a hundred and something members most of whom are in the central belt but only eight of whom will come when you mean others who else do you mean? well I was thinking not so much the Edinburgh Communications Group but that's now got forty six members some of whom are mutual yeah but that means you've got potentially mm a hundred and thirty people perhaps of whom why don't you wait and see what the numbers are like and then you can always ring up a few people and say we've got a space if you'd like to come right,okay, when should we try and go for that maybe at the end of April beginning of May? End of April's fine I think right, erm what we're gonna have three people taking part are we, three sort of speakers or? Well , do we need three speakers? erm We've got somebody from haven't we the printer yes we have so we've got one or two people because they thought they'd do a duo on design and print buying from them How long I mean could they do that in about quarter of an hour Why don't you say to them that they each organisation I mean H M S O and have ten minutes each for a presentation yes ah ha and then the rest is questions and answers yes we could happily give them fifteen minutes that would take up forty five minutes yes, and then H M S O print buyer print buyer and design and print buying then you have a slight break in the attention span if each person's fifteen minutes ah ha, yes and then question and answers yes , that seems reasonable what's the kind of remit of their presentation going to be are they going to look at problems which arise or I think what what we want to know is er the estimator at . Now we all know because we're print buyers to a larger or greater degree but they're clients they over-estimate they add about twenty five per cent more on than they need and you have to send them back to sharpen their pencils several times before you've seen the estimate, they of course know that all print buyers are idiots who keep forgetting all the important things and don't give them half the information they need like the weight of paper or the fact that there's to be a pocket at the back so, I think if we got the man I think if we maybe started off with H M S O the print buyer which is more akin to what we are and say well you know these are the problems I've got I'm sitting with a six million pound budget buying for the whole of the government of Scotland and I have problems and these are the problems that I have, then we get to the wee man from who says now wait a minute boys I get the rubbish that you send out, that was the message and let's make it funny but slightly aggressive let's highlight the real problems because that's what it's about, we're not here for a nice night we're here to learn yes, right and then finally we could finish off with Bill and Ben the Flowerpot Men or whatever they want to call themselves from and they could say well we're the guys in between we've got clients out there but we have to deal with printers and estimators and this is what life is like for us. I don't know if I'm unique, I suspect I'm not but I go to my two design people and I say right blah blah blah this is what we want to do but you organise the printer I want you as the designer to find a printer that you can work with but here's my timescale and it's up to them erm, yes and some of the design houses will mark up what then handle some of them won't in terms of after the design stage and that I think is something that some people don't always realise ah ha yes but some parts of the job if you do it yourself you're gonna save some money mhm whereas certain parts of their handling are going to be about fifteen twenty per cent yes okay, right let's define this task up a little bit then, right I will unless anybody else wants to do it I'll write to Len and say this is what we want the estimator to do yes, I'll contact could you firm it up a little bit with him you firm it up with I'll talk to Scottish Homes yes and tell them what's the nice girlie at Scottish Homes she's married to an Advocate isn't she? Is she? Think so right she doesn't spell her name like that and I'll speak to within the next couple of working days can we have a date end of April fix up a date, end of April or the beginning of May and do you want a little bit of done about each person it would be helpful but I'll introduction H M S O have x million clients blah blah blah blah yeah, yeah so that gives them a little bit of introduction for each one so that we know and also it puts the guy in context for I mean these if I remember I mean H M S O are mega bucks buyers and even bigger now aye, aye they have this sort of automatic estimating system with key information just goes shooting out to the amazing so, yeah a wee bit about each one would be helpful ah ha a little potted bit and then a discussion afterwards ah ha, erm yeah, well I mean okay if we say take fifteen minutes each and we start five or six minutes late each one will overrun by three so they will have finished their speaking by seven and by seven and then it's up to the members yes is the proposal for the is it coffee and sandwiches beforehand or at the end? I'll ask do you happen to know but um I'm a great believer that it's rather nice to have that going on while the event is going on you know you sit and munch a corned beef butty as you dribble your coffee down the front of your shirt you can tell right, okay, okay, how're we doin how we doin good right, so I was going to speak in terms of numbers George it was just a wee thought that if there's going to be three or four of them we want at least eight of us if not it's gonna be a bit that's right that's right unbalanced I'm very happy if I could see fifteen or sixteen coming to this me too fifteen or six I think we need to think about you know the timing absolute got fifteen again, I mean I maybe shouldn't do this but I tend to take a very relaxed attitude to these things and if somebody wants to bring a pal or if somebody that would be interested I see it as P R for the B A I E you know Yes , I mean my view is that we put it out for members we see what the uptake is and then we can always look at the list and ring certain other people You might get some of Sandy's might want to come along, Sandy's people Sure , great, ah ha or if we're stuck get our heads together and drag in a few extra bodies that would be great but it would be nice to get about sixteen people Yes , I think so if it were just three or four of them you've got to have well that would make your twenty wouldn't it because if you have four speakers and you're aiming for sixteen punters twenty people I mean let's be honest if we all turned out that's five and if the rest of the Executive Committee turned out that would virtually take it up to ten we wouldn't be looking for many more after that well the Committee is fourteen people anyway isn't it or ten people aye but I mean some of them are on this Committee as well I mean Wendy and I for a start erm so that would be good right let's try and give that one a right , okay let's now say that a joint event with the I P R and the E I C G I'm having a lot of difficulty making contact with the I P R Why? And I don't what I get I never have for my my hundred and ninety pounds a year do you mean with the I P R in London No with the I P R in Scotland well what's the problem? Right, the problem is that I can't seem to get through on the telephone, I phoned and her secretary came back and said you've to phone and she gave me a guy's name like and I got a number for him so I phoned it, ah he works in our Edinburgh office I phoned the Edinburgh office. I'm sorry he's not in today I said that's okay I'll call tomorrow. I don't like leaving messages yes on B A I E things cos I don't know how other people's offices react so I phoned him back the next day, ah he's in our Glasgow office today so I phoned the Glasgow, he's on the phone, I said that's okay I'll call back. So I called back again and the number was engaged, so I called back again and got through and he'd left for the day Ah ha, I tell you I phoned the Edinburgh office again the nex and I thought I'm giving this up I'm gonna write George funnily enough the time that we did a course with I P R before mhm we actually ended up with a lot more I P R people and we'd done all the work and they got most of the money now that's fine that's the way life goes sometimes, but I must admit I think that depending on how big an event you want to make it you're maybe as well to keep it an B A I E event and open it up quietly at the end yep I mean what about the E I C G, again this seems one that I thought might interest them? Who are by and large Edinburgh based as well Yes, I mean I don't think there's a problem about opening it up to them except their meetings traditionally are in the early morning ah ha erm Anyway I've spoken to and is tied up until February which is fine because right basically so am I, I've got to write a news in the next few days so I'll see in early February tell him about the ideas, I've also been in touch with another lobbying firm, I say been in touch but it's quite easy because not the Westminster whatever they're called No um Michael Fraser Associates have now started a lobbying operation which is run for them by the former Chief Executive of the Tory Party in Scotland whose name I've forgotten but he lives down at Tiningham in East Lothian ah, now if I could get him in if Fred doesn't object and again if Fred didn't object and the other guy didn't object it might be worth getting a member of Parliament in That would I mean that would determine which day of the week you'd try and do it probably wouldn't it? erm well I mean there are some MPs any day of the week will do you know there anybody's for a good meal but erm I mean ah I know I know but then he's pretty tied up and I know very well but even trying to get lunch with is difficult but there may be there may be I mean I know quite well but would want . He is What about somebody like I was gonna say he'd be very good yep yep No I find him quite helpful aha when I've taken things to him I must admit right well that's a possibility I mean So when are you thinking about that in the summer Well I don't know it would probably have to be May or June I think erm May or June right if we if we get it off the ground at all it may be we'd want to carry it over till the Autumn and start the new season with it. So that's really just to let you know right what's going on at the moment and where I am with it I'll quickly rattle through the next one effectively nothing more has happened at Napier, they went off for their Christmas holidays about the fourth of November and came back about the nineteenth of January er, not quite as bad as that but nearly as I mean they've even longer holidays than we've got and we get a fortnight at Christmas and New Year I think you meant the fourth of December and not fourth of November Well November, I meant the fourth of November it seems to be for ever anyway I spoke to the Head of the Department when they came back and he said I must admit we've done nothing from the point of view of putting things on paper but a lot of thinking has gone into it I must really sit down now and commit things to paper. But he reckoned we would be on course for a start in April for the er certificate er which would be twelve half day day release courses I was interested in the thing in B A I E news which you had been talking about getting grants for people to do it Yes, that was a bit that's been a bit hyped up erm that intrigued me because it didn't seem to me that it was to be eligible well the the have a training roll and it may well be that the will be able to I mean I haven't spoken for example but they have taken over the functions of the old Manpower Services Commission training agency. Also organisations like ours are members of the Construction Industry Training Board so for instance if was going along we might get a from the C I T B so I mean grants might be available if people rout around for them. So that basically is it how would we see the course's structure I don't think we've got time to do that today I wanted really to just to throw some ideas with you good folks and get the benefit of your thoughts and experience so that I could go back to Napier and say this is what my committee says Yes, I haven't brought the modular things I mentioned to you on the phone the other day but I think it would be very useful to sit down and look at structuring that yeah which is what I've done for something else and what we simply did was to take an A 4 landscape sheet erm and carve a syllabus over I think that was sixteen or eighteen weeks or something up, and divide it into you know units of competence, elements of competence and the assignments and the homework to my mind probably the most hardest part of teaching somebody something at Napier will be actually how to write ah, everything else is a mechanical function that they can learn layout, scaling photographs like that. How do how do you teach somebody to well there's an interesting chap who lives in South Queensferry who does writing courses for the public library ah ha and my Japanese when I was in the States found the leaflet and when I cam back she said wouldn't this be of interest to you for my own and then she said and what about your project because there will be people there who write and dead dead true. You know I've got quite a lot of material from the corpus from it. Nice chap and he teaches creative writing in Glasgow, used to be a teacher then a teacher trainer and then I think took early retirement and he does this but made the point that he simply uses it for extra income for pleasure and interest as opposed I suppose to a way of writing you know so But he's never been a journalist No, but again in terms of creative writing and feature writing, that's maybe you could get two people to do a duo, one from the journalist side and one from more general side okay I think what we might think about doing is maybe just having a meeting for an hour one evening on that one subject yes brainstorming , I think so I mean Wendy's ill and Gordon's got stuck in Manchester right both of whom phoned in this afternoon. I think it would be nice if we all got together so will we aim to do that sometime in the next month or so and I'll tell Napier that that we're doing that let's do that Would you like to see a sample page of this other thing aye, why not, why not the final thing was Is it going to be based really on what's in the Editor's Handbook Editor's Handbook in part yeah, that's the core but it needs fleshing out more and a has agreed that you know it's if you just stuck to the Editor's Handbook it's too narrow and it does need, I mean B A I E in London thus far are being extremely helpful if slightly cautious and I've to go down and talk to the revamped education committee when the revamped education committee gets around to having a meeting Well it's due to have one very soon I mean there are all sorts of little peculiarities for example you do not have to be a member of B A I E at any level to sit B A I E exams. That's daft I thought you did because to do exactly I know, hang on I'm not sure whether that's right well I have it I have it from the words of himself er because I thought you had to be in post this is what we had a problem with with Napier's request for recognition You can take a B A I E examination without being a member of the association at any level because I've said that what we should do is we should insist because Napier want to bring a lot of students in on this mm and they want to make it an elected module for people doing other things Ah yes, but now that's very interesting because that's not the same as was the old regulation with the H N D recognition with Napier, and it used to be as I understood it that you had to actually be in membership and leave a period of time between doing the certificate and the diploma. Anyway, there we are, erm so I mean there are things like that also er we need to work out how we divvy up the exam fee, I mean I've said to B A I E but they haven't so far the exam fee yeah, they haven't so far what do you mean by the exam fee? the forty pound fee to sit the exam ah you mean divvy it up with who? With Napier, B A I E charge but Napier are going to be teaching the course Napier sure aren't going to be conducting the examination Ah well you see that's what I'm talking about as well, Napier are saying if your guys want to set the exams fine but we did in fact in the last exam paper find a fundamental flaw. There was a question that could not be answered by students outside London because who sat that a London colloquialism has been used, Napier were saying that we're doing the tutoring we would be happy to set the exam paper but with say but the exam paper was common for the United Kingdom sure, well er so you're saying you want to make a different exam paper for Scotland no, what I'm saying is I think that's something that the B A I E education committee nationally should sit down and have a look at, I mean it may well be that at the end of the day Napier would set a better exam paper than they would er, also I've suggested to them and again they haven't that Napier validate the course do the marking but with perhaps two B A I E fellows yes as part of the team yes, that's right and if we divvied up the exam fee on a fifty per cent basis it would mean that B A I E were getting twenty quid for doing nothing but probably more twenty quids than they would get normally because students who would be attracted in through Napier would be paying their forty quid as well mm right so all of these things are put so finally Can I just go back you've got children to collect what I don't understand though is if Napier students get a certificate or a diploma are they going to be able to call themselves D I P M A I E without being a member of the organisation. That seems to me a complete and utter nonsense that's right well if yes if you can sit the exam already without being a B A I E member presumably you can do that already it seems daft Carol please George I'm not being but is he sure he's right yes do you want to set a date for another meeting just now or do you want to get in touch later George? I think it'd be better it's just than I'm under a wee bit of pressure at the moment to be in thirty five different locations okay give me a shout then I will do, I will do I mean it's actually easier Carol give me your number and your address I've got a phone and a fax How's by the way? slim,I'm still involved with the prison service thing but I need something else ah ha bits and pieces but I need something else of the same size, you know right, right so I'm looking for one other thing which is not too big and not too small How does the prison service come out? Quarterly is looking for a job if you need an assistant I'm sure he is i was talking to him yesterday he's con how's his convalescence going? I haven't heard David sounding so lively yes and chirpy for many many years yes much more relaxed but did somebody else say to me that he's taking action against the Scottish Office yes according to a daily letter he and a quarter of a million, I'm not sure of the figures post traumatic stress, I have my own views about what will happen there yeah. the lawyer, the Admiralty lawyer seems to think they've got a good case who's doing it? the fellow who did the ah the people who do the the what erm what was the name of the disaster Piper Alpha that's the one so they seem to think we've got a good case so when I mean the interesting thing about that is why didn't somebody of his maturity and experience ask for it well, that's a good point you see somebody who has slogged their way for a decade through messy complicated family litigation or have even represented myself in court in front of a judge in the court of session and one, and I'm very proud of this I did this last May um I know how tough the going is yes, yes er, when you know you go home and lying on the doormat on the Friday night is a great tome of paper that came second post which made me out to be the biggest idiot philanderer, thief, cheat and liar in the world of course and after a time you know you say ha and you just because the lawyer for the other side always goes for the very worst scenario yes, yes and I can't see the two people involved being able to stomach that very easily because questions like why did you not ask for counselling at the time or you were in charge and why did you not ensure he had any adequate yes I could see this getting very nasty very quickly I think I'd probably settle out of court aye aye very happy aye shut them up aye quarterly right it's just about to come out in three weeks time oh really because it would have been nice if you could have put something in the corpus about the prisoners who help with the corpus actually or a bit in the B A I E Communicators Newsletter in Scotland you know here's a member that's launched a new publication for the Scottish prison service yes we could do but it won't be read by the cons it'll be read by the screws that's right who are in some cases worse than we thought Carol thanks very much for coming in okay thanks a lot be in touch give me a buzz, any time okay bye goodbye home right the structure of the course aye, let's have a separate meeting on that I mean I've largely left it up to and and one or two others that I've met up there who else have you met up there because I was so surprised hellish on names I can't remember because I'm so surprised that and said they didn't know anything about it there were four people at the last meeting er and two others from the department a male and a female who looked after the bits of the department but I cannot now remember what their names were let me just see if I've got my notes which were written on the inside of a British Airways flight ticket come in, hi ya hello you're being recorded the ill one enters the room what's her name again? Bella just one message for you oh aye, he's off now I'll call him tomorrow finished transcribing those notes but you must be fairly near the end aye hope so aye they seem to be going on and on and on right okay I'll do that first thing tomorrow morning bless you come in which will be about what lunchtime I would reckon I'll be finished with Norman about ten o'clock it takes me an hour and a half to drive down half past eleven say I'm in here about twelve o'clock right, cheers okay thanks a lot goodbye we have I mean this company you've got N V Q stuff there, which is that? this company moves at such a rapid rate of knots that I have a meeting tomorrow morning with the Managing Director Building and Property Development at his house in Pitlochrie which is the only time he's literally coming back to change his shirt before he goes wandering round the world again so the only way I can get him is to go up and stay with the in-laws over night and see him at breakfast time tomorrow. I haven't in fact got right don't worry so, erm I mean think we're in their hands and that's why I was a bit apprehensive about doing publicity for it at such an early stage because I like to see i's dotted and t's crossed er but however I'll chase them up again in the next few days but are the point about how it's structured is if for example it's going to be open to students at Napier Napier what about the students in the Communications Department at Queen Margaret College? if they wanted to come along to it they could But why don't you allow them to run a similar course there because it would mean more student members two things and more students doing the exam right, two things first of all I mean I think this is the first one and once Napier get it up and running I think it's exportable yes but I think when you look at how it's structured and whether it's modular structure and its content it's got to be written that it will be United Kingdom exportable not merely sure I mean yes Napier have Well I think it's been open to any higher education institution to grab this idea because it's been around for a long time, the great beauty of Napier is to some degree it's a centre of excellence it's got its B A course so has Queen Margaret but at the bottom end but why should I say the bottom end at the bottom end it's got the B A communications course at the top end it's got apprentice training for printers. So everything's there, printing presses repro separation houses, sheet film, computer set up and Apple Macs and everything is there, it's actually a very impressive set up erm, the Queen Margaret's course, I'm slightly dubious about I once had a colleague I'm going back a decade who had been employed on the basis of doing the communications course at Queen Margaret I think, and it turned out that it wasn't communications as we understood it, it wasn't our sort of communications P R newspapers and things like that, it was communications on a much broader, broader front so it didn't actually fit in to the world of P R and what happened was I then had to sit down and train this woman from scratch and get rid of a lot of the preconceived notions that she had come in with she had brought from Queen Margaret's College. I mean I've had Fife College on the phone as well saying you know why can't we do it and Alec we're really now we can do no more until Napier come up if for some reason Napier fell down on the job then I think I've got enough knowledge about what we're doing now but I would start running it round the other colleges including Telford who are doing a distance learning course Oh yes but they've been doing distance learning course they've got the biggest distance learning course in Europe Yeah but they're doing the distance learning course at the moment on publicity and P R I think erm I had some papers about that somewhere well this is the open learning opportunities here they've got erm various things including the communications and so on right they're doing an H N C in communications for business and there are modules in that that would actually suit some of our who have you met down there I haven't met anybody they mail shot us um I thought I'd brought it with me cos I've met I've met with them before aha on some of their things and in fact two of their people came to the intellectual property thing right so I think in a way it would be quite nice to sit down with somebody from each of the colleges to hammer out the syllabus because Napier will see it from Napier's point of view about what's easiest for them to teach and what this and what the other whereas I suspect if you also sat down with and and people you might get a broader discussion base I have a built in um caution of those who wander in the groves of academe I always feel they're a bit divorced from the real world I don't think you would I certainly don't think you would find divorced from the real world because he's involved in consultancy work and research work with the national companies out with the organisation I'd like to see what hard nosed er B A I E people would make of it you know people who are making a living from doing the same well you know when I employ somebody coming into the business this is what I want them to be able to do um this has always been of course an a criticism yes could we sit down and write the two of us some pages to put to this next meeting so that we have actually got some meat in front of us? Well we could try and do that my I've got a workload that would choke a camel at the moment because I'm also the admin officer at the moment for the Public Relations flight of the R A F E R. Because of a lecture I gave last weekend I've to write a paper on how P R audits can be applied to the military which is great fun and an acknowledgement that people of a senior level were listening to my lecture but, um it's put quite a bit of work on me. But by all means if you've got something bring it along and that would give us a starter for five I'm keen to see us also trying to once we've got this going going down the S P Q road ah had lunch with the other day at I mean it was I mean she wasn't meeting him necessarily wearing a B A I E hat of not um and I think she I think she touched on that though while while while they were lunching. erm I put down progress because I was thinking of the Pilgrims Progress at the time erm Yes it's quite interesting I mean the if you go and look at the computerised facility that I'd found about communications training, there are something like three hundred and ninety two sources of training in Scotland. Those obviously include all the further education colleges that do the basic um and the basic things and then the H N C H N D it gives you the open learning things which includes then the private sector people communicate and all sorts of other agencies, erm it depends really what you see as a beginner, do you mean a beginner in the communications field in its entirety, or do you mean a beginner as an in-house industrial editor or a freelancer by definition a beginner is not likely to be a freelancer? Aha That's right, it would be somebody of one rung down perhaps from and half a rung down from if you can put that in context I mean is an absolute beginner she knew nothing about this business two and a half years ago What had she done before she came to you? She was the office junior right And she had one or two hires including higher art and then somebody said oh that would be good for the P R department is looking for staff so she now is doing a superb job running a marketing operation, editing an internal newspaper it all herself and erm all of that I taught her, now I want to move her on to the stage where she can get professional recognition for this, now that is what I call an absolute beginner yeah so do the certificate to do the certificate yes and then with great rapidity after that the diploma so that she could be erm do you know I'm still foxed about saying to do it well but the important thing is she's engaged to be married I would reckon by the time she's about twenty-six she'll be looking for time out to have a family but by that time hopefully she's and when she's thirty-two or thirty-three can come back into the business and say I've got a and the door opens that much more easily Of course, I mean the government view is that people will come back with S V Q's and that is what's going to do it. Being certainly lost an opportunity by not being it's only body there is an editing element in the book publishing section from the P G B and there are elements relating to us in the S P G of the Periodical Training Council and there will be bits of them in the public relations in the marketing one of which I've got a copy of the draft, but you know there is nothing all embracing B T E C do graphics and journalism but there is no single forum, I mean that's what so astonishing and interestingly somebody at B T E C told me the other day there's been a bit of a problem about the the book editing part of the editing level three element um, and that's partly political as to editing versus production because production's level four and editing is level three, and that has made some problems apparently right, right what I see as an interesting possibility the papers that we got in this week from Telford College that came to me About open learning About open learning and they've got an H N C in Business Communications, now they also say that you could do this as a student at the college. There are three elements of that that fall within the scope of B A I E type learning one is an interviewing technique, one is an introduction to public relations yeah interviewing in terms of staff interviewing I don't know it was a two liner, um an intro an introduction to marketing and P R and an introduction to internal communications were talking about you know the house newspaper, now that's the and this is distance learning? yeah yes This is three elements out of about nine or ten, now if they could be persuaded that if people phoned us up and said blah blah blah I want to learn this we could say well Telford will let you do this one unit of the course, they learn the one unit of the course, they say right I'd now like to learn about let's say photography and we find out that Queen Margaret's College in their course have an element on photography so we point the student in that direction and then they do this hold on a second but you can't you can't dip into modules of that can you don't you have to do the whole thing? Why can't they dip into modules because once they've learned that they then come to us and we say right you're at the stage where you can do the certificate in Industrial Editing sit our exam But I think the difficulties buying into sections of an H N C course Well that would be up to the colleges, if they're commercially astute they'll say right yeah twenty-five quid for that, in fact it would be a lot less because it's only for three months but I don't think, I don't think I think you have to pay a candidate fee as well as the course fees so you right, well that's the sort of things that I think we want to find out and in slower time I was actually going to ring the yeah at Telford and say speak to me about this and maybe pop in one morning on my way into town and just say this is the idea how does it grab you and if they say you're not on fine, but it's things like that that I think we want to explore. Napier have said that once they get this course up and running there's absolutely no reason why experienced people like us can't dip in and out for a one off ya the other people who I think would be quite interested at looking at something like that would be the new Business Development Centre at Queen Margaret I think that's much more up their line is this erm is this Ann Packard enterprises this? No, no no this is them wanting to get off a course off the ground right in fact the girl who did the mailing for them didn't do it properly so in fact it's unlikely to happen erm they asked me because I know that since she's now leaving the Vice-Principal through network erm and and they were thinking of getting something together like that, I didn't write this that's not my writing but just let me tell you I don't write a twenty- four clock, twenty-four hour clock with full stops in it aha right it's a bit odd isn't it? erm so no certainly they asked me about it and so on but I think that rather like their food forum they might like to get a communications forum going erm because they've been thinking about having a Business Club and various other things because they're involved with the Management Programme and all sorts of things and they maybe going to do some training for heads and people like that I mean this is something that we could maybe be of help to in fact maybe something that I could be of help to them on because I actually do lectures on public relations how to assess what I mean at a very basic level you want to communicate with press how do you do it but before you do it why do you want to do it. Have you made up your mind what your message what've you got to tell the press this is how you go about targeting I know I had to explain to somebody in Chambers the other day something to do with the Corpus that it wasn't where was the story there wasn't a story right erm people get great ideas we want to give this a big show at the press to which I say well ho ho ho step back but they are going to be running short courses there about well, if they were interested in speaking to me I could probably put them on to not just myself but members of my flight, it isn't my flight it's flight erm and there are several of us in Scotland who could come in and do things like that for a modest remuneration erm ya, they're feeling their way it's only been open I mean you know well is probably just about to become a member of our flight I mean he's going through he's just about to go to the R A F College in Cranwell yes to do what? There is a specialist Public Relations Flight in the Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserves yes and in the Air Force Reserves he's just about to come into it Oh really Yes He's the young lad who was at S T D he's now working for himself that's right, that's right and now that he's shaken off the Scottish Office I invited him to come along to it as well so we may find but how do you I mean do you have to be taken on as officers of the R A F You have to go through a short course at the R A F College Cranwell and then once that that teaches you the R A F side of it makes you into an officer because at the end of the day you maybe there to do public relations but if the spaghetti hits the fan you're an officer and you're a combatant and you know you carry a gun around when you're in a war zone and you know you're expected to use it and if the senior officer of the unit next to you gets shot and you're the most senior officer then you take over you're then commanding the unit it's always a bit a it came home to me with great a vigour and enthusiasm when I was walking round the kitting station at R A F Innsworth with a supermarket trolley getting it filled with kit and when I got to the end they handed me my dog tags and my gun, I thought what have I let myself in for because I'd never worn dog tags before and I'd never had a gun with live ammunition in it that got strapped to my hip and you suddenly realise, I'm going into a real war it was quite a nerve racking experience for a few days But had you had presumably training in all these things oh I trained in all of these things yes where did you do your training here or down Catterick usually Oh really, yes with the R A F regiment yes um I mean that's where we do the military side of things in fact I'm just organising that now for the flight for February but we have the probably the most famous member of the flight for it was founded in nineteen forty was H E Bates Oh really erm now I was reading about him a few days ago that's right because they've just released papers after thirty years of work that he was doing for the M O D he was actually doing it in his role as a member of the P R flight, Beaver Brooke sold the government this idea just so can we get back to research about beginners because I'm worried about how much there is on the tape and you're about to drive to Pitlochrie erm basically you have to define a beginner to see what they want to do sure that's right but I mean I think the beginners are the people coming in new to the bis when you say new to the business do you mean new in terms of employment as opposed to say graduates from Queen Margaret or Napier or anywhere else? I would say in employment yes, or people that want to get employment example would be yeah at M D secretary suddenly shot into the job of producing the company newspaper now I mean somebody like very quickly has to get to grips with this obviously cannot give up six months to go and do it so you do it on a half day release basis. but she's had quite a lot of training in other things actually and with the man marketing department that they've got there they might not need that the thing coming up I've just had what's interesting about that and what I don't like about it is not to because I have a lot of respect for her. But they don't tell you who is actually doing the delivering so you're buying blind There is nothing here either that I see that is immediately um relating to the B A I E type of business effective writing skills, presentation skills and working with the media I've got here Thursday twenty second nineteen ninety four Now I've got here ah learning outcomes erm some topics preparation and agenda type management issues the meaning control skills that doesn't well time management could be for a lot of people yeah that was something people had asked for working for the media here but it wouldn't er now you've got a different programme to me, I've got Learning Outcomes again is that the same one? No this I've got the I've got this is right I've probably that one no that's just the I really just wanted to see er just wanted to see the sort of range of things they did now this is more like it you see Effective Writing, Report Writing, Technical Report Writing, Business Sales Corres , Editing House Journals Writing for Publication, Desk Top Publishing, things like working with the media these are more the sort of things that I would see people Oh that's for in-house training for actual customers in their own organisations isn't it? sure but again I mean if there was a market for this I am sure that to take that and splinter it off into a unit it costs money to get people that want to come into this business but the interesting is I was talking to one of the training people at one of the big finance houses recently about whether or not one could piggy back on some of their courses or whether in fact some of the in-house stuff they do they would like to deliver to external B A I E people right so that's something else to look at, but it takes time but I've got this C I T B N V Q stuff really to sort of to see what went into an N V Q's package well if you'd like to come to Dunderth Street one day you can see twelve inches of it I see erm it also misheard me here because I'm involved in designing a television series as well on the construction industry also gives me some interesting data about the industry was it ten per cent of the nation's workforce works for the construction industry which in an average year will turn over thirty five billion pounds well the industry C I T B industry training board premises are just near one of my sister's houses erm in Norfolk isn't it in Norfolk somewhere? yes Kings Lynn Kings Lynn well you drive through it on the main road and it goes both sides of the road I've never been to Kings Lynn Can I ask you em age R A F me please to complete the form thank you fifty two thank you sex, we think you're male, accent, do you have an accent? Yes, Scottish erm do you happen to know about thirty two and female um right I think I need you to sign it actually so if you could just sign here Stewart how many points have you got so far ? Fifty. Fifty? Yeah. How long did it take you to get that? Er just about er you know two or three weeks like that. What what's the most unusual thing that then you've spotted? Erm not really sure about that. It's in front of you the list. Oh. Have a look. Is it the plants or the birds that are the most difficult? The bird. very much plants at all. Well you know something now you've got fifty points. Yeah well most are birds and animals so I don't know . What's what's the most recent one? Erm it's a moorhen. A moorhen. Yeah. And what's that other one a tern stone? What does that look like? Erm goes the shore sometimes and it when you see them. Have you got any points in that so far? Well I've got well I've not got many points. What have you been doing? How many have you got? Erm something like ten points. How long does it take you? H how long do you have? How long do have to get get the points? When did you start then? Erm. Last year? Last year this this spring? Started this year. Yeah. Right I'll try and not to deafen you this time. Tell me about the whooper swan. Few of them flying about coming along just the line of the hydro wire at the hydro wire and just saw a blue flash and get down. What did you do with it? Er took it up the field and took to the school then we got at it and it and bath full of feathers. Then what did you do with it? We give it the cook and she cooked it. What did it taste like? Horrible didn't like it. How many points have you got so far Carol? Twenty five. And that's over how long? Erm about two or three weeks or something like that. Very good. What was the rarest one so far? Mm You had another whooper swan I see from there. Yeah. We found that in the field dead. And a redwing? You saw that in the garden. Mhm. That's a rare one isn't it? What about the plants? Any of the plants so far? Er got lady that's all. Mushrooms? Mushrooms yes. Was that last year the mushrooms you've got October down there. And a toadstool? A yellow round head toadstool. Mhm. Does that look the way it sounds? Not really. Was it easy to identify them? Cos these things a lot of these things are poisonous. Some are difficult. Ooh and you've got quite a few shells. Mhm. Nathan? Nathan you've got a few haven't you? Yeah. How many? Twenty seven. That's good going. What's the rarest one? Well I don't know. I can't find anything. You're a fat lot of use aren't you? Can't find it. What think think wha what's the most interesting thing you've Redwing. The redwing. You saw that too. Was it the same bird? What? Was it the same one that Carol saw? I don't know. I'll just start again. Nathan you've got quite a number of points. Yeah got twenty seven. And that's just in the last couple of months? Well about that yeah. Very good. What was the rarest thing? Well maybe it was er redwing but er the funniest one was a robin cos erm on November the twenty seventh some robin hit the window. Mum opened it and it flew in the house. In the morning erm we got some bread and put it on the window and came down and we caught it and put it out again. And he flew away quite happily? Yeah. What are you hoping to get down on the list this month? I don't know. I'm going to send it away and y for twenty five points on the back twenty five points you get a silver badge for a beginner and then a gold Mhm. badge for fifty points and then you get advance certificate for a hundred. Have you got quite a few of the plants as well? Well one moment let's see. Plants I've got that one and that one oh it's the time for violets isn't it? Yeah. and you've got those. Did you have a taste of the whooper swan? Yeah. What was it like? Taste quite nice. What was it like? What did it taste like? I don't know. Taste a bit like duck and chicken put together. Quite like like beef almost? Well sort of yeah. Sort of. Mhm. Well the seals you'll have plenty of seals here won't you to chose from. And the hares, lots of hares in Shapinsay this year? No you don't get hares in Hoy yeah. Mhm. You know when you climb Hill you see lots of hares. And that's where you spotted that one? Yeah. Do you have to go quite far away to see all these things or could you see most of them on Shapinsay? Most of them on Shapinsay. No hedgehogs yet? Mm. Have to go to North Ronaldsay for that? You couldn't fail to find one on North Ronaldsay . Louise you're in charge of the can collection? Mhm. Tell me about it. Just Er like that. We got a whole teacher got a whole lot of letters for some piece all about collecting cans for getting trees and it was them letters. And it and we had to collect twenty cans and then when you've collected twenty cans that is enough for one trees one tree and it is gonna be planted in Sherwood Forest and it's going to stay there for hundreds and hundreds of years. And then we're sent a whole lot of magnets so we could test out the cans were. And then Sinead Sinead's been collecting a whole lot with and everything and she's got the most. And she has a hundred and forty and he's gotten of cans for the his mum and Stewart's been getting some cans for the shop for his granddad and I've been asking for permission to go into the dump and get some for there. And erm the girls they have gotten four hundred and twenty four cans and the boys have gotten two hundred and sixty eight and altogether we're collecting nine hundred and ninety five cans with the whole school. How many trees will that give you? Don't have a clue. Quick calculation here. Divided by how much in the school do we know? I'll get something like no About twenty four trees? Er no er there was a lot . A lot. A lot a really lot Are the trees just for for Sherwood Forest? I think they're just going to be planted there. No they're not no . No no no . No. No. No. Don't They're not the whole scheme though is for Third World countries isn't it? Mhm yeah. And did David Bellamy have an have something to do with it? Yeah he had something to do with it and we're gonna have thirty four trees . Thirty four how mu Mhm. Thirty four point nine five isn't it? Seven five seven five yeah Thirty four point seven five trees so far Yeah. Well done. And there's and erm we're doing a project on conservation and actually helping the conservation as well and erm as well cos so them up and it's and it's gey good for our own project. And we're we're well erm getting a whole of trees planted and field there cos her field is hardly ever used and we gonna be getting a whole lot of trees for that. We're going ask permission for that and that's really it. So you're not going to be able to see Shapinsay school for the trees very soon? . Erm they'll be I don't know when we getting them I think it's maybe next spring or sometime yeah. Nanette are you going to speak to me about art from junk. I suppose so. Well erm made models with stones and other rubbish that we found about the place and a whole pile of had still standing. We er put a flag on the top and a sort of plant pot stuck on the top of that and then me and Sinead we made a erm we put to stones and we filled that with junk and had a aerial stuck in it . And that looked pretty funny like and it fell down a couple of days ago and maybe a pretty while afore that I dunno. And erm well we wrapped up a whole pile of paper for paper paper recycling and erm we mushed it up and the best of the stuff we put in the liquidizer and erm we put it in a tank and dyed left some stuff as it were and we dyed some other stuff green. And erm for summer then we put some here and some seaweed and it made it look kind of queer like but Mr Davis our art teacher just thought it would make it look more interesting. And erm we did driftwood sculpture some folk did monster outside the door. S er got one lone piece and it's got a piece of wedge and it's got another piece sticking up and something sticking out of that piece of branch or something sticking out of that. Looks right sight and there's chair in that room as well. And erm we collected a whole lot of colour glass and we stuck it on the window and it's a stain glass window y know? It's lovely I thought it was the real thing. Looks like nothing from outside though. It looks lovely from here. Yeah well that's really it I think. Right. He does see if he came amongst us and then for those four men who let their friend down through the roof, he saw their faith. Well is that what he would see with you or would he just see what you're wearing and, what would he see? Would there be any faith to see? He saw their faith. And then last week again, we considered another question regarding er er, er regarding faith. I'd like us to ask another question this week, it's slightly different, perhaps a strange on the surface and it's how much faith does God have in you? How much faith does God have in you? Now you might say perhaps, without really thinking about it, well if he's got any sense he won't have a lot of fe , faith in me because I am, I am a great failure, I've let him down. He shouldn't have faith in me. But it's a serious question. How much faith does God have in you? How much does he have in me? Well, let's keep that to the back of our mind for the moment, cos we're gonna, er see some answers to that along the way, this morning, I trust. Right at the outset, perhaps we can read a verse from one Timo , er two Timothy, chapter one and verse twelve and Paul says there, he's come almost to the end of his life, he's, he will shortly be, taken out and will be executed and he says,for this reason I also suffer these things . Because er, he he he had given them of of how he had become a Christian, he had become a minister of Jesus Christ and so on, he says,for this reason I suffer these things, but I am not ashamed, for I know whom I have believed. I'm convinced that he is able to guard what I have entrusted to him until that day. I know whom I have believed . And it's very important to notice what the apostle Paul says there. He does not say I know what I have believed but he says, I know whom I have believed. And our faith is not in our creed, vital though that is, important though it is, it does matter what we believe, but even more important than that, and foundational to that, it matters who we believe! And Paul says, I know whom I have believed. Whom I've trusted in. In whom I have put my faith. Now, God never asks us to do something that he doesn't do himself. He doesn't ask us en , to give anything that he himself hasn't given. And so when God comes to me and asks me to do something he's already walked that path before me. When God comes and he asks me to give something, whether it's my finance, whether it's my time, whether it's my, my abilities, whether it's, even my life itself for him, he only asks because he has already done it. He is not the sort of person who sits on the sidelines giving instructions. He is not a coach or a trainer who sits the game out, never plays it, but just as a theoretical tactician. But he's already done it. He's already known all the knocks and all the hardships, he's been there before us. That's why the apostle could say, we don't have a high priest, who's not touched with the feelings of our infirmities, he's been there before it, he was tempting in all points like as we are, yet he was without sin. And the same is true of faith, and so for Paul to say, I know whom I have believed, I know the one in whom I have put my trust, then the other side of th the other direction is true also, God had put his trust, had put his faith in Paul. God had deposited his faith and his confidence in Paul. You see, faith's always a two way traffic, it's not just me believing God, but it's God believing me. It's not just me trusting in God, but it's God trusting in me. After all, what have you and I committed to him? But, to take it in it's totality, like Paul we can say, we've committed our life to him. Our eternal future we've committed to him. Now for you and for me, that's a lot, in fact it's everything we've got, but what has God committed to you and to me? He has committed himself. Now, as a simple equation, me committing myself to God, is incomparable to God committing himself to me! It's way out of balance, but that's how God has done it. He has committed himself to us. Well let's think for just a moment, you know, we've been talking over these last three or four weeks about faith and that, erm, let's just think, perhaps and we should have done this sooner, but I dunno, it it fits in th this morning, er perhaps just what, what faith is. And like a lot of things, it's often easier not what it is, but first of all what it isn't. I have to confess, for what it's worth, I do not really like Lewis Carroll, Alice through the Looking Glass, and Alice in Wonderland, they bore me stiff! But the man wasn't stupid, who wrote it. And he can tell yo ,i within the book there's some tremendous illustrations, and some tremendous truths. And, you may remember the incident where, in er th the story, Through the Looking Glass, and Alice is talking to the Queen and er, the Queen says to Alice I am one hundred and one! I find that impossible to believe, says Alice. You only need practice says the Queen. I can believe six impossible things before breakfast! And you know, the sad thing is there are an awful lot of Chri faith, that mu that that comes under the realm, to my way of thinking, of mind over matter, that's the power of positive thinking, that is not biblical faith. I can believe God will do this, therefore, because I believe it, then God has got to do it! You can't bribe God like that! You can't blackmail God like that! That is not faith. And yet, there's an awful lot of Christians who go around thinking along those lines. That if I believe hard enough, and long enough then God will do it. Don't you believe it! He doesn't do it because you believe it. That's not the reason for God doing anything. And we've got to believe, but that is not the reason for him doing it. Faith is not believing six impossible things before breakfast. It's not an easy believism. It's not because I believe therefore, it's going to happen. You see, basically, biblical faith is not in things, it's in the person. It's in Christ. Let me turn you to a er a little incident that happened with the erm, in the life of Jesus, it's in Matthew chapter nine and, just gonna read I think it's three verses there Now let's pick it up at verse twenty seven, this is in and Jesus passed on from there. Two blind men followed him crying out and saying have mercy on us son of David! And as th Jesus come into the house, the blind men came up to him and said and Jesus said to him, do you believe that I am able to do this? They said to him, yes Lord. Then he touched their eyes saying, be it done unto you according to your faith. And their eyes were opened ! Now then, what is it that Jesus really teaching here? You see, he's not just asking them a question for the sake of it, he is actually trying to teach these, these blind folks, er er, these, these blind men, er er er some spiritual truth. He asked them this question, do you believe that I am able to do this? Now what Jesus is doing here, he is not asking them you know, do you have faith that you're gonna see again? Do you have faith that a miracle is going to happen? He is taking their eyes, if you'll excuse the pun, off their situation and condition, off their blindness, off their need, off the miracle even, and he's directing it to themself. He didn't say to them, do you believe you're gonna get better? He says, do you believe that, I am able to do this? So he was focusing their attention on him, and that was the important thing. Because what they had to believe for was not a miracle! It's not a case of believing for a miracle every day, but it's a case of having faith and trust in the Christ of the miracle. So often, we have faith in a miracle, in the supernatural, rather than having faith in the Christ of the supernatural. And so Jesus is taking their attention off the miraculous, in a sense, and directing it towards him. Do you believe that I am able to do it? Because that was the important thing. Yes Lord. They believed him. He then, he performs it, be it done to you according to your faith. Now, within each one of us, God has deposited faith. And that's, that's good to know that anyway. Don't say, I haven't got faith! You've got faith or you're calling God a liar! Because he has given you faith. Now,ha , what sort of faith has God given us? Now when God gives faith, when he gives anything he is giving of himself. There is not a great depository in heaven, there's not a huge warehouse, and you come to God and say oh Father! I, increase my faith, give me faith. But in a sense you don't actually have to ask to have faith because God's already given it to you. But in giving us this faith, he doesn't go with a, a picking order into the warehouse of heaven,a and look there up all the great pallets and boxes of faith, or boxes of love, or boxes and cartons of peace, and say right, there's one, I'll give that to you. And he pulls out another container of peace and he gives it to somebody else, that isn't how it happens. What, how does he give us faith? How does he give us love? How does he give us joy? How does he give us er er er, peace? By giving of himself. There's no vast warehouse in heaven. The treasures are in him! My God shall supply you all your needs according to his riches, in Christ Jesus. And so when you get peace, when God gives his gift of peace, it's not something he has given from heaven down to you but he says, my peace, I give unto you. That your, that my joy may be in you and remain. We have his love. Let the love of God fill you, garrison you! And so when he gives us faith, he gives of himself. It is his faith. He has deposited faith, his faith. Have the faith of God, or have faith in God, the literal translation of that is, have the faith of God. And that is something that God gives of himself. Now, let's look at this verse, Ephesians two eight. There is a statement, you have been saved! We've come to Jesus Christ, he's forgiven us our sins, we've been made new creatures, we are saved according to Athesians two eight. But, how are we saved? Well, there's, first of all, there's God's side to it all. There it is there, God. By grace you're saved. Now, we've no real question or quibble about that. We know that we couldn't earn our salvation, we know that we don't deserve, that we know that we couldn't merit it. We are saved by God's grace. But there is our responsibility to it. Because God's grace has provided salvation for the world! God so loved the world! That whosoever believeth in him, should not perish but have everlasting life. So God's grace is sufficient for the world. His gift of salvation is for the whole world, it's available, God willeth not the death of the sinner, but that all should come to repent. And there is i , God's grace and his gift, and his er, his provision of salvation has reached out to everybody! But you know as well as I do that not everybody responds to it. There is our responsibility and there is our side through faith. There it is, that that's, you are saved. God's grace has provided it! There it is, God in his mercy and his love, in his graciousness he has provided a gift, a free package gift for you and for me forgiveness, salvation but there is our responsibility of receiving it or taking hold of it, of experiencing it. Then, there's the other bit of the verse and that, not of yourselves, it is the gift of God. Now, what is the gift of God? Well the salvation is a statement, we could not save ourselves, that of course, is God is given up, there's no question about that. The graces of God, you didn't need any grace to get saved yourself. You didn't need grace to be forgiven yourself. You see, if I do you a wrong and you forgive me, it's not because I've exercised grace, it's because you've exercised the grace. So that is a, that is a perfectly obviously statement there, and that's not what Paul is saying. The gift is the faith that God gives to us to receive his forgiveness and his salvation, and his grace as provided. You see, God's grace is provided in Jesus Christ all that I need for salvation. Now God loves the world, he sent Jesus to die for the world, Jesus came, he lived a sinless life, he gave his life on the cross of Calvary, he died there for my sins they were put on him, the whole story of salvation but, salvation in it's totality is God's gift, I do not have to merit it. I can't merit it. I can't work for it. And I can't, of myself, even produce the faith for it, otherwise, you might have an advantage over me. I perhaps, of myself, haven't got that faith. Nor you, we know, but still, somehow, by some quirk, you may get faith, you may produce it yourself, that gives you an advantage over anybody else. You see, the very faith that we have to receive God's gift, is God's gift to us. That is provided by God as well. It's not a works, so that none of us can boast on any account. It's not because I had Christian parents, it's not because I'd some advantage over you, or you had some advantage over me, it is all of God's graciousness, it is all of God's giving! So God's grace is provided in Jesus Christ, all that I need for salvation and for a life that will please God. But you see it only becomes my experience as I exercise the faith that God has given to me. Faith then, is the complement of grace. All the grace of heaven! All the, the unlimitable supply of God's grace could not save you or me by itself it had to have the other side, it had to have faith, I have to receive it. The gift is there, but until I make it mine, it doesn't do me any good. And there is without any exception, everything in the Christian life is a gift. You and I, do not deserve any of it, not a bit of it! It doesn't matter if you live as a Christian for a hundred years, if you live the most sacrificial life, if you live a life of prayer and fasting, if you lead thousands of people to the Lord, if you are the epitome of Christian piety, you still don't deserve anything! Because at the very end of the day we are unprofitable servants. We do not deserve anything from God, because we, of what we were to start with. We were sinners. But it is all of God's giving. It's his grace, it's his giving. And so, everything in your life and my life as a Christian, is the gift of God. Our salvation is a gift. The gifts of the spirit. Th the er the anointing of the Holy Spirit, they're the,th every single thing, every area, our growth, our maturity, whilst we might have input into it, it is still God's gift to us. Eternity, in heaven with him. You don't deserve! I don't deserve it! But it's God's gift to us. And the thing is faith, er grace gives, and faith receives. The two have got to go together. Now you remember the account of the children of Israel in the wilderness? We just touched on this on Tuesday night. They wander around for forty years in the wilderness! Why? Why should they do that? Well, it was very simply because of unbelief. You see,th the provision was there! The promise was there. There's the land it's yours, I have promised it to your, to to your seed and to your, to you and to your seed, it's yours, it's there! Go ahead and take it! God did everything except push them into the land. Because they had to exercise a bit of faith. They had to go and possess it. But because of unbelief, in erm Hebrews chapter three you got the er, you got the account of it there in verses seventeen to the end of the chapter, seventeen to nineteen, he says and with whom was God angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned? Whose bodies fell in the wilderness? And to whom did he swear that they should not enter his rest? But to those who were disobedient, to those who had no faith ! And so we see they were not able to enter because of unbelief. They had the most fantastic gift awaiting them! Here they were, a nomadic people they had fled from Egypt from the, from the bondage and tyranny of oppression, and God had provided a land which was flowing with milk and honey, it was theirs! What fools they, you say they were not to go in and possess it! That's all they had to do. Well they'd see there were problems, you see, faith doesn't mean that everything just happens, because faith has gotta do something, faith without works is dead. And they had to go in a do some fighting. They had to defeat the enemy. And only Joshua and Kaleb had any gumption. They were the only ones who realized they could do it because God was with them. The fact the enemies were like giants didn't mean a thing. And they cou , they could say we well over to possess this land because God was with them. It had been promised to them. In Joshua chapter one, in verses two and three,Moses my servant is dead now therefore arise, cross this Jordan, you and all his people to the land that I'm giving to them, to the sons of Israel. Every place on which the sole of your foot treads I have given it to you . It's not something that we , God's not really given it to you, it's yours! It's all gift wrapped ready! Your name's on it! Just go and take it and it's yours! Just as I spoke to Moses. And then ri , down a bit further in verse eleven,pass through the midst of the camp and command the people say,preva , prepare provisions for yourself, for within three days you are to cross this Jordan to go in and possess the land which the Lord, your God, is giving you to possess it . It was there's all for the taking. But they felt they couldn't do it. And so for forty long weary years they wander around as nomads in a wilderness! Forty years, going nowhere! Doing nothing! Until every single one of them who had not gone in, apart from Joshua and Caleb died. And they were buried. God said right, now it's somebody else's chance. Back in Ephesians in the first chapter in in verse three, see it's easy for us to say, well what a lot of stupid people they were! Why on earth didn't they go in and possess the land? Well they're not quite, well, they were stupid, but the thing is, we can't always point the finger at silly people,because we're silly people as well. There in Ephesians one three Blessed be the God and father of our Lord Jesus Christ who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ . And then, like the children of Israel, if only, we go around saying, if only God would do this! If only this could happen! The point is, he has already done it! There is posa , there is, for you, he has blessed you! He had, not is going, God's got no other future blessings for you. If you are waiting for God to suddenly send some new blessings, you'll wait for eternity! He has already blessed you with every spiritual blessing. God hasn't got any more spiritual blessings lined up for you, nor for me. They're there! He has already given them to us. The trouble is, just like the children of Israel, we spend our time wandering around in the wilderness. Wondering, why we can't get it, why we can't go in. And it's there all the time! You see our faith must make experiential, what God's grace has made possible. He's done the providing. He's got the gift there. We've just got to take it, by faith. Now, there's no time to to go through them all this morning. Let me just give you a list of some of the things that, that God has provided for us in, by, and we receive it by faith. Ah, I I think this is impo , is so important that actually, whether you like it or not you're gonna get it, er written down with the scriptures to go with th ,o on the next monthly thing. But these are some of the things, faith opens to us the door to every blessing that is ours in Christ. You don't get it without faith. But God's already given you the faith, so don't worry! You've just gotta exercise what he's given you. We have access to him, by faith. We have sonship, we have righteousness, forgiveness of sins, sanctification, cleansing, Christ indwelling, how do you know that Christ indwells you? You know it by faith. We receive the Holy Spirit. How? By faith. We inherit the promises by faith. We have victory over the world, victory over the evil one, victory over circumstances and difficulties, not because we're good, not because we're pious, not because we read our bibles or pray, we have it by faith! We are kept. How are we kept as Christians? Cos we work hard? Cos we do the right things? No! We are kept by faith. And we have power by faith. He started the working by faith, and he's not gonna change horses half way through. How he starts, he continues, and will bring it to it's conclusion, by faith. Do you remember the er incident when Jesus was, with the disciples in the boat? Now this is one of those interesting incidents because it was one of the times when he tells the disciples off. I don't know, if you're like me but, I must confess, I I get er, I wouldn't say pleasure, but I rather like those incidents where he tells the disciples off, not because he's telling them off, but because I can fit in wi with what they've been up to! I can see mirrored in it, me! And so, they weren't super-saints. They weren't wonderful characters, they were just like me. And so when he tells them off, I think ha! Ha! Yeah! That's what I'd have been doing if I had been there so you're not so different from me Peter, so you might have, you might be different in other ways John, but I've got that weakness as well. And th , so i in Matthew, it's in Matthew chapter eight, the incident,th the the, of the er the the storm, and, listen to what Jesus says when he, when he's, when he's telling them off. Remember the the boat's been filling with water, they've been bailing out in desperation, after they'd done everything that they can do they then turn round and said, Lord, don't you care we're gonna drown? Well they said that a little bit, you know, more vehemently than that I'm sure, but that was, that was the thing, Lord help us! We sa , we're perishing! And he said to them, why are you timid? You men of little faith! Now, why on earth did Jesus rebuke them? Now let's be honest here put yourself in their situation, the obvious thing in the storm and th the water comes crashing over, well you don't really want to fill the boat with water so you start bailing the water out, when you realize you're not gonna be successful cos more is coming in than you can get out and the storm is not abating, you would naturally get agitated and if for nothing else, at least you can come and help us to bail out! Even if we're not gonna succeed it must have stuck in their throat that there was Jesus lying asleep. Why should he be lying asleep when I'm working to try and save us? And Jesus rebukes them. Now why should he rebuke them? Why is it that they should have had more faith? After all they had never seen a storm being still before. They had never witnessed a man get up and say to the wind and to the wave be muzzled! And the wind stopped and seas stopped tossing. They had never ever seen that in all their lives before. Now, if they seen a miracle, if they had been there before and had seen Jesus do something like this, then it would appear that they would have ev , that Jesus would have every reason for saying, oh you faithless people! Why are you so frightened? Don't you remember what I did last week? Don't you remember how I stilled that storm? Don't you remember how I rebuked the winds on that occasion? They had never ever seen it! They'd never even heard of it before. I mean, at the end, after Jesus does it they,th the the they're frightened by what they had now seen Jesus do! And they say, never have we seen anything like this before! So why should Jesus rebuke them? Surely the reason for the rebuke, why he said that they were timid and they'd no faith was because they had lost sight of the fact, or the, the importance of the fact that he was there with them. You see, that was the important issue. Not what he could do, but that he was there with them. And that is the reason why they were rebuked. If you turn over a few chapters in Matthew, into chapter fourteen, you've got another er watery illustration there, it's, Jesus is coming towards the disciples, he walking on the water! And Peter Started with this device this is the thing I made it at the grammar school when I was working there. It's like a a wooden box with a glass lid and inside looks like perspex, is that right, perspex wheels Yeah, that's right. Switches inside . There's a a motor been on here, it was on to ring the school bells. That's like a a sort of electrically driven timer. Yes, that's what it is, and in the grammar school they had biology wanted to have plants growing in the dark but provide a light for them. One plant had to get light for eight hours per day and the other one had to get light for sixteen hours a day, so another wheel at this end did this job when this went around so many times. Aha. Ah so that controlled the lights to your plants then. Yes. I see you've made several versions of Yes, that's right. This one had a whole lot of switches on so it can be altered from outside without going inside. That was what looks like a satellite dish what on earth is this? It's a very Yeah it looks like a satellite dish, it's only a yard in diameter. The focus of this is about fourteen inches from the centre and if you put a microphone here when this this thing is outside it's ideal for picking up bird song. You can pick up birds from a mile away. We'll have to have to get a few of these in Radio Orkney I can see. Yes it's quite good for long distance. It's ideal for birds with the high frequency voice, but for people they the speech is a bit lower in frequency and doesn't work quite so well. So you can't use it for eaves dropping. no Did you make this thing? I had a satellite mirror found in a quarry, and took i used this It was a mould for this to get it a perfect parabolic shape. And it's made of fibre glass is it ? Fibre glass. Yes I see. And er underneath it here we have a a glass box, I see. There's a mirror inside there. Frosted glass screen on it. Yes. So when I take this out and pout this through the window it shines straight up and you can look at the clouds and you can tell which direction the wind is. Ah I see. Ah right so the the direction the clouds are moving in against this frosted glass screen Yes. you can use as a Just see them go you can't see it today when there's just one cloud. Ah yes it's continuous. A continuous cloud. and you can tell by the speed they're travelling what sp speed the wind is. Aha. I see , so that measures the speed of them across the screen this way you can time it . Yes,I had a seconds timer there as you can see. So the the pendulum you've got set up here you can use as a a timer against Yes. that. It's a simple timer. Yeah. Well simple minds can simple things. I never had any education since I was fourteen so I used the very simplest things when I find the very simple things can do very complicated jobs. Yes. So on the bench here we have a a device on a a tripod, again, it has wheels on it where marked off in what looks like degrees. Am I right ? That's that's degrees yes. Aha. Two wheels, one on top the other and a What looks like an eyepiece to look to look through. What what's that for Sandy? Yes, well, it's at at an odd angle, you noticed th that because we are in latitude fifty nine, so the centre of this has to look at the pole star. It's an astronomical device then, yes I see . And er this th has to be thirty one degrees to the level, so that er you follow the stars as they travel around the sky, because they're always highest in the south and like the sun and the moon they're always highest when they're due south. So this is the same idea and if there's a star Something that I did see a wee while ago, I saw a f a light very close down to the horizon and I said I've never seen a star so bright way down there. So I looked through this device and er found what the reading it gave, so I went to my map and I found that that's where Mars should have been. So I ass assumed that this was Mars. When I got my telescope to look through it was gone. So it was on look for it later, so I traced it up and it was Mars. So you can use to identify stars Stars. just from their position in the sky. And er the sun doesn't always travel at the same speed it goes fast and slow so we can also measure the the sun. I see, so you take that top wheel off and you have another one underneath where alternative reading And that's and that's in hours. Of course, yes I see. And er the sun can be as much as nearly twenty minutes slow or fast. So you can adjust for the the differences there. The sun is only at th the correct time four times in one year. The Earth doesn't take a circular path around the sun so it passes it quickly sometimes and slowly at other times. It makes the sun appear to vary in its time keeping. So you've bui built this machine to incorporate that error so you can compensate for that. Oh I see . I canna look through the sun at it, but I see the the sh the shadow of the one on on the other. Ah yes, eyepiece , it's painted white so it gives a sh shadow. And it also tells me how high it is in the sky. So it's a bit like a sextant almost in a way. Oh well aye , I suppose. It's an interesting machine. This is the same idea over here. Oh yes And the camera goes on there and a wee electric motor over yonder, which drives it around at fifteen degrees per hour, which makes it follow the stars as they move around the sky. Oh, so it's so it's for photographing the star and Yes. Well it's a time exposure. If you take a time exposure of the stars with a static camera you just get streaks, because of the Earth's movement, and I should make the device follow the stars at the correct speed, you can get an awful lot of stars that's completely invisible to the naked eye. It picks up the very dim stars. So this this allows you to follow them along while the camera's shutter's open. Yes, that's right. You can take an hour's exposure with this one. I've never done any more than fifteen minutes. Have you got any photographs that you've taken by this means? Yes I have indeed. I took my early ones in black and white, but the later ones I took in colour and er I saw to one side of Orion what looked like the Plough. You can see the stars there are quite bright. I've looked with binoculars and I can't see them with the naked eye. These are so faint and they only show up because of the long time exposure. I see, so so a way of seeing stars that you otherwise would not be able to see at all. You can't see. Here's the the Belt of Orion and the Sword. You can see the centre one is red. Tremendous. Is this just an ordinary camera you've used? Just an ordinary camera. Thirty five millimetres? Yes thirty five millimetre. Ha, gee you wouldn't have believed that was possible. And this is the the picture of the moon. How big the moon appeared with this. It fills the frame, yes. But er the only problem here is we're too low down and there's too much sh shimmer in the atmosphere, difficult to get anything really clear. I see, presumably this is why all the big observatories are near the equator, is that right ? Yes well , they get on top of mountains if possible to get rid of the shimmer. The moving hot and cold air. Now I'd I notice there's a an enormous telescope behind us here as well. What size of telescope is this ? Er it's er it's a ex W D lens, after wartime they sold these things they sold them in catalogues and I sent of for this one, and it's about a stone and a half in weight. And er That's a size. the glass is six inches in diameter and is a thirty six inch focus. I have another eyepiece on the end which is suitable for looking at the stars and planets. It's also a piece of ex W D equipment and gives a right-angled viewing and turns the picture right side up. Most astronomical telescopes view everything upside-down and er I drew two hundred lines to the inch inside this eyepiece. The lines are so close together that two of them can be seen crossing the planet Jupiter at any one time. The lines are about eight point eight inches apart at a distance of one mile. I notice we have a chart on the back of the door here as well a circle measured off in angles and er this is lovely it's got Venus Yes. Well Earth, Mars and then it's measured off in Saturn , Saturn is as far as we can see. This is already erect now to find the the planets and stars when you're using the telescope, yeah . Yes well they would. Well brings us very very conveniently to your your first choice of piece of music Sandy, too is this Yes part of the Planets Suite by Holst. Yes. astronomy God then Sandy? Oh well it must be my before I was a teenager. And I very young days. Living on the farm we were quite isolated, we had no street lights outside, there were no lights Very many lights anywhere at that time. And we had very clear skies and showed up the s the stars quite brilliantly. I found a lens in an old box and I used, I got another two lenses, and I fitted them together in an a tube, I had no tubing but there was an old bicycle at the house and I cut up the frame and put one lens at the one end of the frame and the seat pillar, I used the seat pillar for focusing. And my pictures were upside down but I could see the rings of Saturn with it, which was more than what Galileo saw first when he looked, he thought there was two stars at either side of Saturn. If he'd had a bike he would have er done better then. We found then that the bigger the objective lens was the more light could be got and the bigger you could make it, so as I got bigger and got er the chance of making my own lenses and building up lenses of various kinds, I found that I could get quite a good magnification. How do you actually make a lens? I got a porthole from the Fulforn when it was being sent off for being scrapped. And it was about ten inches in diameter. And of course I had to get another lens, a piece of glass about the same size, in order to grind it, because you grind the glass with another piece of glass with a grit in between. Grit and water. Carborundum powder and water. And you rub backwards and forwards, backwards and forwards, and I ground like this for several hours every night, after I came home, for three months. That's a long project. And that took the centre of the glass down by maybe a a one and a half millimetres. That was all of the glass that was worn away in that time. But er it did not do bad, got a fair good picture with it. Now we've got some interesting photos here now in this this album of people standing beside themselves I would say . Ah twins, yes. How did you how did you achieve this? Well er I had a lot of friends here and there, and when I've had a lot of photos to develop for them, and then when I got everything done, you felt a sigh of relief at getting it all done. So you tried then to do something to use up the rest of the developer. And there's one here with a a group of people and I found that a stone wall makes an ideal thing to trick photography with. Because you can join it anywhere and it doesn't look messy. Ah yes. I er see the the way the the two parts of the photograph are joined on the I the stone wall. I turned out the f the negative upside down to do the other half, which makes 'em look Keeps the the group equally s h Yeah, it looks like a large family group. four sets of twins. And over the page here we've got got some more. the Borry jungle this this photograph's called . Yes. This was a a real life picture with great big trees and a real forest and it was done by It was a footpath through ferns, and the I see. ferns are only about two feet high. Or rather less, but the jungle track through the centre helps to show you it's a a roadway, though it's only about a f a foot wide. So the camera was right down on the bottom. Now there are a few branches there, there's one that's lying kind of horizontal, it'll be an idea to set someone on top of that. So we have this in the next picture, and it was another one vertical, we got one to g grab a hold of it Mm. lean on it. Yes er it looks either like tiny folk or enormous ferns. Yes. This is done in two exposures presumably? Yes. That was done a different way from the other pictures. You actually take the peoples' photographs first, cut them out and plant them on the original. Rephotograph it. This got me into some problems too with a chap in Braigh who was very fond of black Polled cattle. Knew a fellow somewhere in Evy that wouldn't be seen dead holding a black Polled cattle, so er he er came along to me with er farmer's weekly, and a black Polled cow on it, and gave me a photograph of this man. So he wanted it me to make this man hold this cow. Anyway I had to photograph the man, I photographed the cow and I had to photograph a background. And I had to merge all these pictures together. It looks very convincing I must say, it just looks like a farmer The holding the b the the halter or feet of the cow was not in the original photograph so I had to go up to a a farm and ask for straw to hide the the the animal's feet. You went away with a photograph to show us. Yes, and I never heard of this And there's another lady that brought me a picture with four generations in. But a fifth person appeared in the reflection of a window, can I remove them? So I had a shot at this, but if I cut it out that part of the window was black, it didn't look right, so i put a shade over it. Now it was a fairly white, it still Aha. didn't look right. So Oh I say, I'll cut it out and make a wee hole and transport part of the wood work across the window. The window was completely boarded up, it took me a while to do that. The next thing I got was an order for twenty of them. I whole thing twenty times over. Well, what's your second choice of music then Sandy? Well er This is a photograph of you as a a young fellow walking the high wire. Yes,That's right. Oh w where did you get this high wire to walk across? Well this one here is a water pipe, it's er what? An inch and quarter or something in diameter. I found it in Hoy, and there's some deep gullies there. There's ditches where er s the water has run away all the boulder clay and left maybe a ditch, this one was nine feet deep. And I put balanced it out across this, and I set my camera down er down below, on a time exposure which runs off in about one minute, so I had one minute to run up the side of the thing and get out here and balance myself. I had another l pipe, piece of water pipe, which I used as a balancing device, but I found, with the watering pipe you are so stable you feel it's a shame to be seen holding on. I say you don't look very stable to me up there, I must admit Sandy? Aha. So you took the photograph yourself, as well? More or less aye. There's er this other one here with a I carried a fish box out onto the wire and set it down and sat on it. I had no balancing pole then. I can see that. That looks like a bit of a balancing feat right enough. What led you to try this? I don't know. It's just something I just felt like doing and i couldn't have any real reason for doing it. Well I don't think there's any better reason than that. On this page we have the the Churchill barrier. This is er early stage of construction. barriers were getting closed up and above water we were permitted to walk across. So I was still in Berry then and working at the grammar school, so we had to walk across all three causeways for some time. There was at th near the end or the middle, number two causeway and I was crossing there one day, and the tide was out and er the big ship that was along the causeway was very close to the s to the stones. And I saw a hole in the bottom at the side of it where they had blasted a hole in it in order to sink it. So I says I'll pop down and go inside to see what like it is. I had my camera with me and I saw there was a ladder up on the top deck and when I got up on the top deck it was quite a giddy height, not to be bit I looked at the mast then I climbed up the mast up three quarters of the way up the mast and er the view from up there looked right down on the causeway. Oh, I see. I thought that was an aerial photograph some height up there. we photographers go to daft places to get photos. At times, it was Leonard's top seller for about fifteen years. It's in books a few books have it in it. Well Sandy, we've only looked at a few of the things in your shed and a very few of your photographs but it's been fascinating. Thank you very much for your time. What's your third choice of piece of music then Sandy? Well I'm not awfully good at music but my wife is very keen on music. What about the the Churchill barriers? Very appropriate I think very appropriate . Yes I think that might be my . My Fellow Tablers, I will never ever forget how proud I was to say those words, Fellow Tablers, my first as a Tabler after being inducted some thirteen years ago. That same feeling of pride and excitement is here today and I use those so so meaningful words to greet you as your National President. Fellow Tablers I thank you most sincerely for the honour and opportunity you have given me to become your sixtieth National President. Round Table more than anything else is about people. It is people who make things happen, it is people who bring that special ingredient of fun and fellowship. It is people who give you encouragement and support to turn ideas and dreams into reality and it is people who become friends. In this regard I couldn't have been more fortunate. And my enormous thanks go to my own Table, Chester seventy six, very very true friends indeed and the same for the whole of my own area, Area thirty six Wirral and the Marches, where nothing has been too much trouble and they are here today as you've just seen in some considerable strength. They have been absolutely incredible and I would like to publicly record my deep affection for everything they have done and are continuing to do. My P L C under the Chairmanship of Chester Tabler Mark has been wonderful and the encouragement I have received from seeing the enthusiasm and commitment of the very young Tablers as I purposely invited twenty year old Tablers to be involved in the P L C has given me considerable optimism for the future of Round Table. Most importantly there will be one person affected more than me in the year ahead. She's the glow that keeps together our family life my business life at the same time has always been supportive of my involvement in Round Table. Glesni, from the bottom of my heart, thank you for your willingness to share thirteen years of Round Table and the twelve months of Presidency ahead. Fellow Tablers I will never ever forget my first A G M in Manchester. Raschid who is here today was President and I attended with my own Table Chairman at that time David who not only encouraged me to attend my first A G M but encouraged me to get involved involved in ri in Round Table right from the very onset. He helped to get me hook, Round Table did the rest. Raschid that day and Dava late and David later when retiring used the immortal words, Please take care of my Table. It is now our responsibility in the year ahead to care for this movement which is so dear to our hearts to those who have gone before and to the young members who with our encouragement will be involved in the future. The membership issue now has the profile it deserves and demands at Table, Area and National levels and this must be continued. If the answer lies anywhere it lies in the hearts and minds of Tablers. All I'm gonna do is add to what Keith said earlier today and encourage you fellow Tablers to use your hearts and minds over the next twelve months in this direction. There is good news from the tax man our deregistration on subscriptions has been accepted and we are due a refund. This could be a substantial amount of money and it is important in the year ahead that we debate fully how this should be invested in the future of R T B I. The Forward Planning Committee will be asked to seek your views and bring the proposal to the A G M in Skegness. Round Table Day is made for Table and Table only and has all the best features which are inherent in this movement. Each Table or Area doing its own thing in its own way and as an Association moving powerfully in unison. It will be a day which will be inevitably based on fun on fellowship and on benefiting others. Whilst at the same time improving our public image and increasing our awareness. I would very much therefore like to think that Round Table Day on the nineteenth of March nineteen ninety four next year will be the success that you wish to make it. Focusing our energies and our efforts externally. I promised in my five minute address last year that I would be a listener and I've already listened to many of your views over the last twelve months and indeed today. I promise you that I will continue to listen and where I can I will do my best to respond to the wishes of the ideals of and the aspirations of this movement that I hold so dear. The opportunity to serve you and to meet you over the next twelve months I look forward to enormously and while I'm not conceited enough to think that I can move mountains in the year ahead, or naive enough to think that I can please everybody fully, fellow Tablers I promise you I will not let you down. Thank you. Good evening Hello. Mary. She said when I came in, there's only two in front of you. And you know I've been sitting an hour. She says, there are two in front you. Now then what can we do for you this time? Well remember you gave me tablets for this leg? Mhm. Well, was it last Tues ? Last Tuesday night, my leg was awfully sore and home at night . See that there? That was that there was a lump the size of a tennis ball. That and it's still, that was last Tuesday night. It was the size of, it was a way up. Aha. And my leg's been that sore and badly swollen I just don't That's the clavitis again. Oh no. Not again. Is that what it is? Ah. But it's just on the surface it's not, it's not the same as the other one. It's Aha. That's right. Well you should have seen the size of it. Yeah. Tt they're an awful worry. And my chest's been right sore. And this about half past two the day I, I was that sick, vomited and then I took the bile Mhm. and that just finished me. You're having a great time . I don't know what's wrong with me. Mm. I just don't know what's wrong with me. Oh but you should have seen that. On my conscience, me. I had a feeling that's what was you know the clavitis Yes. back Oh aye. but, cos my knee's awfully sore. Yes. Sore. It's bound to be. Aye. But that they see this, mind I told you before that this brace was awfully sore and that painful. It's still the same. You know? In spite the tablets? Aye. It's They're not making much difference? It's just all sore and I've been taking a pain here this week. Well. We'll need to stop your Tagamet We'll need to switch your Tagamet over Mary. What to? To Zantac or er Losec Excuse me. Well I mean No. I think I'd rather have my Tagamet because of that Well th the Tagamet will only make this worse Mary. Will it? Mhm. I feel done today. You know? Mhm. I really feel Yeah. done. See your Tagamet that's one of the side effects it, you get very occasionally with it. It gives you tightness Ah. soreness in your breast. Oh gosh it's been murder. Er I th I think er y I think you should give yourself a at least a week without it to get the a chance to get away. Without what? Tagamet Without your Tagamet Aye. Okay then. Cos er it's only gonna gradually get worse and worse Aye. and worse if you keep in with it. I just feel done today I've never felt like this before you know? But I just feel real mm. But this er leg annoyed me last week because you seen the size of the lump. And it's not knock I hadn't knocked it or anything No. No. No. No. It just comes up itself. Aye. and Agnes' . Mhm. Oh and give her that ointment please, I haven't got it down and put this for the nurse. Mm. .Right. I've given you something to get that leg sorted Mary. Aye. You take it after your food. After my food. Two. Two a day. After my food? After your food. Okay. And that'll get that scattered for you. It's funny it's every so, every other year this starts. Yeah. It was eighty six when I was sent up to with it. That's right. And then it finished up with lots of blood in leg so Well let's hope it's I'd get pretty annoyed you know? Aye. We'll stop it going to that. How's Mrs doing? Is she Oh is sh just the same? See the hands she had? Well the nurse has been coming in every second day. She's got them pretty well cleared up. But oh my my Was she scratching it right enough? Oh she was scra . Oh my my. I never saw hands like them. And er And that tablet, that ointment that's for the doctor. The nurse. I don't feel my my dinner but I don't feel No. When you're like that. Certainly wouldn't. Here I've given her four tubes Okay. of that . Right then. Thanks very much. Yes. That's fine. They'll That'll keep her going for a wee while. keep her going. Aye. And you look after yourself. I've been looking after myself of course and I got together her lunch at sits, I sit all the time. Mhm. But I don't go back out again Oh no. No. No. till I'm gone home Oh aye. and sometimes if some of folks are round they give me a lift down you know? Mm. Well that's not so bad if you're getting a wee bit of help with her but er she's a Oh she's do you know she's and she'll do as she, she'll do as she pleases . And she sits and she talks and she talks and she keeps repeating the same thing again. You know you because she's not talking to me. And a wee . I could her. How long will that take to go away? Never mind anything else? three or four days Mary. Aha. you'll be back to your usual . I'll come back if it doesn't help her . Oh you'll be back. No doubt. No doubt about that. I'll still be here. Anyway thank you very much right? I'll still be here. Right. Right Mary? Cheerio. Cheerio now. Well as I say, I was born in the Pleck You were born in the Pleck yes? Street. Mm I had three brothers Any sisters? No sisters until mother got married again, and me sister as I call her now, she's me of course my half sister, Jessie, she was born I'd be about seventeen cos she didn't get married till after the First World War, remarried me step-father was in the forces and he fought, he actually fought in the Boer War so he was a a soldier in the Boer War and in what we call the Great War, nineteen fourteen to nineteen eighteen, but er I had a misfortune to lose the brother next to me, Frank, which he had what was common in those days tubercular trouble,tubercular tuberculosis affected the bowels, see he died in, on August the fourth nineteen eighteen in the old infirmary that now classed as the Manor Hospital, but that was the old infirmary cos we there was no widow's pension in those days, our mother was a bridle stitcher and she used to do have an old fashioned clamp, have you ever seen the clamps that are leather,th tha they held them, the leather, she used to stitch bridles at home, we used to help her with waxing the threads have a leather apron and a bit of wax and pull the wax over the thread, and then roll it round till it was strong enough to thread it, we used to make the threads for her to er stitch the bridles. Who did she do this for, who did she work for? Well I believe, I'm not certain on that, it was in Street I think it was and er she also worked for Joseph in Street too, when she when she went, went out to work she was working for Joseph stitching for him too, but he became later Mayor of Walsall and I believe he was Liberal MP for it Pat the Liberal MP wasn't it? You said your father died when he was quite young? Well he was as far as I can remember he was thirty eight he, he went he worked at the Gas Works, can't remember much about that really but er I think he'd actually been working nights and came home and actually died in bed I believe. And what was the cause of his death? Well it, it must have been heart trouble the earliest memory I have of that is mother sending me with a neighbour out of Street, a Mrs , to tell my Aunt Lucy which was my dad's sister, who lived in Street house,house was right opposite their gateway, now Aunt Lucy and there was er her family she w married a fella in and her daughter, her son and me uncle was my dad's brother, I lived in the house with her, but er I remember tagging this Mrs from the Street down to Street along road and past the hospital, then along Walk and I up in Street, and er tagging Mrs and er Mrs had never met Aunt Lucy and er me Aunt Lucy suffered, what in those days they call it white leg,a woman's complaint she was bedridden and er when we went in she must have asked why we were there, Mrs was a little bit flabbergasted and I blurted it out oh me dad's dead, and me Aunt Lucy nearly went into hysterics, so that's, that's all I can manage I remember about that. Did you go to his funeral? We didn't go to the funeral, but me cousin Dora who was Aunt Lucy's daughter, she got there was er Walter,, Walter and Leonard were in a pram and me cousin Dora went down Lane and wh to the corner of Street and watched the funeral go past up to I've got vague memories of that they're not clear but I do know that he took us to watch me dad's funeral past the corner of Street and I presume that now that it must have gone up Street up to Street street, cos he's buried at Ryecroft. And what do you remember of it, what did you actually see? Well I of course re I was only seven years old, so really I only, I only saw the, the hearse go by with the mourners. What did that look like? I can't, can't really remember that, not too clear cos when you are a child you don't memorize these things. Would it have been a horse-drawn hearse? Oh it was a horse-drawn, horse-drawn, there were no cars on the road in those days, I think I was one of the earliest to get knocked down by a car actually in Walsall, I was er, when we lived in Street he came down Street and immediately opposite there was a Co-op shop opposite Birds the fruitiers, and mother sent me down to the Co-op and the old trams used to run along the Pleck to Darlaston, Wednesbury and that way on and I ran across the road, past the Co-op the tram and a car must have just bumped into me and he knocked me down, a terrible commotion amongst the folks and couldn't have hurt them much, because I got up and ran off, ran off home, so they were restricted in you see and the speed they could go in the car, but the car, the tram car was stopped at the bottom of Street, almost opposite the Co-op and er I must have just run across the road run into the car and more or less bounced off it I should think. What did your mother say? I can't remember that mother was a cos dad was still alive then. How old were you when you moved into Street in Palfry? Er about nine years old. Do you remember the actual move itself, when you moved the furniture and all that ? No I don't remember that, because we, we'd be, we'd moved from Street into Street and er I went to Road School first and er of course er my mother's mother, that's my grandmother, she was living with us then she used to live in Street. What sort of house was it in Street? Er two bedrooms, it was a number sixty six Street in those days, there were new houses built on where it is now, I haven't been into Palfry for years but er there were five houses in the row, there was a family named at one end, there was us my nan of course we were next to, next to us was Mrs, a Mr and Mrs , and then er that was one side of the entry the other side of the entry was a family named , they had quite a large family, there was er two or three of those married Mrs and then er then Mrs they were all relatives , cos there was no such thing as overcrowding in those days you got as many in as you could you see , there was, another was Mr and Mrs she was a daughter of Mrs there was Mrs and Mrs she was another daughter of Mrs , and then er there were, there was a, a young man he was a son of Mrs , the were I think show people originally cos they were a bit anyhow there were five houses down the yard we hadn't got running water in the sink, we had a, a big stone pump pipe in at the bottom of the entry we all had to go and draw out our own drinking water from this one standpipe. For all those five houses? For five houses yes and What about the toilet arrangements? The toilet was er at the back of what we used to call the brew house it wasn't a kitchen it was a brew house, and er the, the toilet was at the back of the brew house adjacent to the old ash pit, which was an ash pit in those days it was filled up and when it was filled, they used to come at night and empty the ash pit wheel up the entry it might be there for three or four months and you got flies, bluebottles all sorts in the hot weather you know, I couldn't try my shoes on sometimes , but er it was a bit, well I suppose in those days they used to take it for granted, it was a bit primitive it wasn't the best five houses in the area, but er Was there any water into the toilet, or do you ? No you have to get a bucket of water and flush it with a bucket, what we did have on the sink in the brew house was a a, a about a couple of foot square and on the top of that was an old pump handle, well that water used to drain all the rainwater from the roof all rainwater from the roof used to drain into that well that was sunk in the brewers, so that we could pump water out of the little well, so that we could have soft water for doing the washing, rainwater, otherwise it meant going to the standpipe in the, out in the yard to get your water for washing. What happened in the winter, did it ever freeze up? Well the standpipe used to freeze up and er when that occurred the grown men in the house used to light a fire round the standpipes, of course it was cast iron it wasn't copper or anything like that, and light a fire to thaw it out, I don't remember ever being without water but we used, it was a bit primitive but burn newspaper and stuff round the standpipe and er the old as I say we used to, the water for the washing we used to pump into the sink and er fill the old dolly tub with water for the washing and use the rainwater for washing. What sort of furniture did your mother have, can you remember how it was set out? Well the, the bed, there were no spring beds in, that came into my life until many years after, were the old straw palliasses, which were really more hygienic to sleep on than your spring beds, because you get the lumbar trouble with a straw palliasses cos it was just hip firm, I give you an instance I used to, as I was growing older I used to fold my trousers and put them under the mattress to press my trousers so I'd always got a nice crease in my trousers, they were so solid that er you got y you didn't even get any wrinkles in your trousers in those days. What other furniture did you have in your bedroom? Well there was an odd chair or so, but apart from that nothing really. Where did you hang your clothes? Hook on the back of the door or there was no such thing as wardrobes. Did you have a bedroom to yourself or did you have to share it? No there was er three lads in the double bed and er another two lads in the single bed in one room, and mother was in the front room of course she had husband in those days you see when we were growing up, there was a it was not unusual to sleep top-to- tail if we had any pals, if we had a party and we had any pals we'd sleep top-to-tail one with a head at the bottom and others with their head at the top, sounds like something out of the Dickens when you start talking about it don't it? But I have actually slept top-to-tail when we've had parties and it's too late for the lads to go home, now just get into the bed top-to-tail and keep each other warm so that the winter and yeah What about the rooms downstairs what were? Well there was always the parlour, you must have the parlour and er you, you had two living rooms and the one was the parlour and there was a cellar underneath the parlour and er the stairs used to come in from the back and go up, up the stairs over the entrance to the cellar but the stairs used to run up there underneath the stairs was the entrance to the cellar, there was a door, so that you couldn't just walk down the cellar without opening the door you see, but apart from that there was er there was just the two, two bedrooms. How often did you use the parlour? Well very rarely it was I, actually I'd say I wasn't really furnished what they used to call the sofa down the one side and there was chairs around there was no three piece suite or anything like that, but er if it was a wet Sunday afternoon we'd play draughts or games like that, as we grew older we used to play, play whist, so it was just a room for oh and we had a gramophone, I, I've actually got the old gramophone case I haven't got the working part I've got the case upstairs now, it was a, as long as I, we er, I bought it and the pals used to club around and buy a record each week there was er Parlaphone, they used to have a little shop on the corner of Street and Street, and we had it from there, and we used to buy a little, a small record perhaps once a week, perhaps once a month, but er I remember the first record we'd, we'd bought as a long play was No No Nanette and er a twelve inch record. And when was this approximately, when would that have been? The early twenties You said you had a part-time job with the local baker can you tell me about that? Oh as I sa the part-time job we used to get, two shillings a week and he used to give us tuppence for ourselves the two shillings was for our parents, and the tuppence was supposed to be our pocket money, but er when we'd finished on a Saturday night if, if there were any stale cakes we'd all get a bag of stale cakes each you used to make a terrific fuss of those on a Sunday. What exactly did you used to do? Well one of you on cleaning fruit, getting all the stalks and stones out of the fruit, we used to have a sieve, not a riddle, a sieve with round, the wires were round in the sieve and you rub it, and the stalks would drop through and then you'd put them out onto an iron baking sheet and sort out all the stones that and little bits that were in the fruit and you'd be on cleaning fruit you might be one day, the other whichever one was the you'd be cleaning and greasing baking tins, ready for the baker to put the cakes in or what have you, and then at night we used to grease all the bread tins ready for men to be allowed to drop the dough into the bread tins, and er stuff like that and cleaning up scrubbing down and How many hours did you actually work, was it each day? Each day we used to do say an hour in the morning, whatever time was available between leaving school and getting back, dinner time, then in the evening you might have two, two and a half hours you left you, you finished school, and er you might finish at eight o'clock if you were lucky you'd finish at half past seven. And was this seven days a week, or did you have Sundays? Oh yeah you had Sunday off, there was a the boss Mr was a Congregationalist, he used to attend Road Congregational Church. You said you used to deliver some of the loaves to Mr 's other shops? Yes Tell me about that what you used to take them in. In a basket scram it's three wheel I've had as many as a hundred and forty pound loaves in a scram to push from to Street up to Road. You had a shop in Street as well. Yes, of course there were always round about three lads and er if there was snow on the ground, two of us would be pushing them you know Was it just a small wheeled Small wheeled. And it was wicker did you say? Wicker, wickerwork basket the one had got a top on and er the big one which I had a hundred and forty loaves, I didn't have a top on but you had a waterproof sheet that you put over the top of that, but er the small ones had a lid on was hinged, hinged lid you could fold it backwards, as far as you could empty it and er what they used to do coming down Road you used to give it a good push and then jump on the back and freewheel down past what is now Lane er is that convenience still on , in those days the was a gents toilet, a public convenience where you went down steps, you were actually apart from the urinals there was toilets as well there. No I believe that's gone now. It must be I was only thinking the other day the number of bakers but er the number of small bakers that were in Caldmore there was the two brothers one was in Road and one was in Street there was on the corner of Street, where the Co-op have that place now that was they were all bread bakers, were bread bakers er a bit further down Street going towards Street was bakery, they were a bakers and confectioners in Street How many were there in Palfry? Was there just Mr or were there There was Mr and then a bit further up on the right hand side was a fella who used to have the contract for making the bread for the This is in Street? In Street a man named he had two sons and he had, he had to quote, give a contract for it, but he always used to do what they'd call a workhouse feed, and it was a four pound loaf, when my father died mother didn't get a widow's pension, what, what she got was two shillings for each lad, there's four of us, that's eight shillings and a four pound loaf for each lad How often did she get that, was that once a week? That was once a week the bread, we used to have to collect the bread from Road, there was a small office at the side of the Infirmary I believe it was Mr or something like that, but we used to have to go to this office in Road and collect this four pound loaf every Wednesday and you didn't get another issue you had it all at once, so we had four four pound loaves, so we didn't know what new bread was after the first day, I've never ate so much bread pudding in my life as I did then with a and er Tell me what you remember about the Palfry Working Men's Club, your sort of earliest memories of it Well, it was actually started by a few railway men,th right opposite Street there used to be hand laundry, and then there was a row of houses, from there, running up to the corner of Street where the club stands originally, but in the beginning it was just a row of small houses, and it started with a few railway men having a meet holding the meetings in this house, in these houses, and I've got very dim memories of how it actually started but it was a real event when they were first, before they actually built the club it was run in the row of houses that ran from up Street as I say there was a little hand laundry corner of Street heading onto Street on the left hand side was the greengrocers, and that, they kept that greengrocers for as long as I can remember. So you say it was a few railway men that got together and That, that was the start, the start of it, I think how it actually commenced so they used to get in each other 's houses and play a few games of cards dominoes and draughts things like that, and they, they took over they must have actually bought the houses before they built the club. Was there a shop or a beer shop or anything like that in these houses? Not in those houses but there was a, an off-licence at the corner of Street, do you know where Street is? Well that was kept by fella called and they could get the beer off-licence, although it wasn't, it wasn't so far to the Old Naked Inn and then there was a pub on the corner of , I can't remember the name of that because they've opened it too young to remember pubs in them days but er, apart from the off-licence there was no actual public inn on Street, there was off-licence, as I say just a few yards down was the Old Naked Inn and there was a pub on the top of just on the side of . Do you remember the rebuilding of the club when they sort of made it look how it looked now? Well I was at school when they was rebuilding, they were, we didn't have much time and But you can remember all the activity and the I, I can remember all the activity and er when it was erected there was a fella from the First World War , he lost a leg in the war and he was in charge of the billiards room and the tables, when they built the club itself the front part used to be devoted to card games and then they installed a billiards hall and the tables and as I say a chap named he used to live in Street, but he was, a lost a leg during the war and they found him the job of looking after the tables and marking So when would this be then roughly can you have a stab at it? In the early thirties I should think. When they built the billiard room and that extension? Well I was er it would be about nineteen twenty two, I was about, cos I, I was er used trip the light fantastic fantastic a bit you know when I ran about seventeen and we used to which billiard hall there was an entrance from Street and it went up the steps into the dance hall, it was over the top of the billiard hall right to the private houses next to them, it was quite a I was sixteen, seventeen in that er dance hall at the time. How often did they used to have the dance, when you were young? Oh on Mondays and Saturdays two or three times a week and it was er available for anyone that want to hold a dance they could rent it there was no jitterbugging it was just the waltz or foxtrot and two step and then we got er one they used to kick their legs about What the Charleston? Charleston People have mentioned that Madame used to have a dancing session there do you remember this? Sh she used to rent it for dances, but her dance class was in er do you know where the Territorial Hall is in er Street? Her dance hall, her dance class was down there, London Parkses Dance Class but she, she used to hold her dances in the club hall, because you could get more in. What else used to go on in there in the way of activities you mentioned billiards and card games and dancing? What did go on oh of course it was available for wedding parties, birthday parties, anything like that, it was the only hall in the area in those days. I've been told there was some baths in there as well Well now that, that's the thing we did appreciate, because er in those days no, no house had got its own bath it was a case of a tin bath on the hearth, but when I joined the club when I was working in the , when I was thirteen I, I left school cos me being having no father I was able to l leave school when I made me attendances, oh that's something that might interest you I was thinking about. I see from this school report you've shown me it said there were fifty seven in your class Well that's, that's, that is it you've got the original there haven't you, that there are photostat copies but something the one that is the original copy that's the original it isn't a copy. Yes that's right. Were there always this many in the class? That was a, that was the number in the class fifty seven. Do you remember any of the teachers particularly well any of them that had had an impact on you? Well there was er the one who had the most important influence in my school life was Albert Edward , do you remember the printers, he was a teacher and he used to teach standard four, that was your last standard in the junior, and he had a big influence on, on me because er he wanted me to go into the printing trade as an apprentice, but I, me leaving school at thirteen and going into full-time work straight away I couldn't do, do that but oh there was er ,, he was an officer during the war he was in the and there was oh our, our school teacher, we used to call, we used to call him his name was actually Arthur I think, but he was always, he was a little bit addicted to the lit little whisky bottle, he used to keep a little bottle in his desk and he'd be having a nip of whisky, but he was what was approximated as a sports master now, he used to look after the football team, we used to call him, I suppose his name was Arthur but his name was . The first teacher I had in the infants was a Miss , she had a bad habit of rapping you across the knuckles with a ruler, and there was a pupil teacher Miss , funny thing about that is she, she, she came up to, Mr came up as headmaster and Miss came as a teacher, she was a pupil teacher it wasn't necessary to go to college and get degrees in the, she, she used to be a pupil teacher in the infant school when I was at school, and Miss was actually at the sunshine school when my daughter was going to school. Did you mention that there were one or two pawnshops in the Caldmore in the Palfry area can you remember them? Well there used to be one on the corner of Street and Street that was , that was a pawnshop right opposite the churches facing it the church were on the one corner Street and used to be on the opposite corner, and Johnny was a member of the church choir as I was after I was ten years ol ten years old, I Mr he must have thought I could sing he sent me down to St Paul's and I, I went to St Paul's Church on the corner of Street and I didn't stay there long because it was I was still working part- time I was still a schoolboy but er I did sing in the choir at St Paul's Church for a time, and then I went, I went back to St Mary's and All Saints in Palfry as a choirboy and er we used to have choir practice once or twice a week, I know we had it Wednesday night, the choir master was Albert Edward he was a butcher, kept a butcher's shop on the corner of and Who was the vicar in those days? The actual vicar was er it was high, a high church, Father and then there was er he was a vicar and he used to live in the vicarage which is higher up than the church at the back of the church Street, and there was Father , he used to run the Boy Scouts troop, and there were, I believe there were, there was two curates, I, I think the other one was named , but in those days either in Street I think it was in Street there was er two or three Sisters of Mercy that used to live down there, and they used to, cos being high church they were able to go, they didn't do any preaching or anything like that but they did parish work around the parish you know, they used to, they used to call them Sisters of Mercy. What exactly had they used to do in the parish, was it when people were sick ? Well they, they, they'd do visiting like and as you say when they were sick and things like that. Can you remember what you used to wear when you were a choirboy? Cassock and surplice, a black cassock and white surplice once I told you that my grandmother was once living with us, she used to delight in washing my surplice and ironing it up except me when I was singing in the choir, I didn't take a, the treble solos, that was after the choir used to sister of ours at least oh twenty men, and as many lads and youths the as I say Johnny was in the choir there was er the two brothers and there was Dick was a incense boy and his father was a manager to go in the, he used to have a red cassock and surplice, but he used to Dick 's dad was the incense swinger and they used to go about swinging incense and that, I don't suppose they do that at all now, but er your first job as a choirboy was to pump the organ it, have you ever been in the church? No I haven't Oh I don't know whether it still exists but er It's still there. I mean the organ. Oh I see. the organ there was a you know where you put your pump belt, there was a long stout piece of wood and you had to keep pumping that up and down to put the wind into the organ, and there was a mirror above the organ and Mr the org the organist, who was a butcher in Street, he could look into that mirror and see whether you was pumping fast enough and he could signal to you and he used to warn you to er keep your eye on the mirror and if he, if he wanted more wind he used to be up up up oh or , but it was just a big long of wood and we used to pull it up and down, I was fairly tall for me height a age, but er we used to have to stand on a box to get it going first, but it, it was just like bellows for your fire you know, wind for that, and we used to pump the wind into the organ also the service. you used to sing the weddings and that type of thing, or was it just the normal Sunday service ? It was only Sunday services but er we did occasionally have, cos you don't get a wedding every day, but we did sing occasionally at the weddings, the biggest service was at Easter when there was quite a performance at Easter yes Joh Johnny he was a he was in the choir and he's, there was another woman that might be interested a Mrs in Street during the fourteen war they used to have the Red Cross collection and they'd organize processions round round the streets collecting for the Red Cross and they used to knit socks and send them out and all that sort of thing Where did young people used to gather and when, meet when you were a young lad? On the, on the, on the corner of the street under the lamppost, we'd, a family named used to live on the corner of Street and Street I lived in that house, but they used to just congregate on the, on the street corners. This was when you were a young lad? When a young lad, well as a young lad you weren't allowed to be cos you're not going to be in there son, and as I was er saying until I, until I left school I was more or less at work between school and bedtime you see, but er the majority of lads used to do a, do a little part-time job in those days What were the people like in the street, the neighbours, were they erm? Very friendly Yes Y y you needn't lock your door up in those days you could leave your door open, and they'd come and knock on your door and anybody in and I, I don't think we ever had a key to our front door, but er no they were very friendly and there used to be an old midwife, Mrs her name was the, she used to charge half a crown for a birth. Where did she live? I don't know whe or is it Street or Street? I think well it was that area, our mother used to go fetch her she us she came into our yard two or three times but I know Did she come when you had your sisters, or was that someone else? I can't remember that but I know she, she'd been to the families either side, Mrs she'd got one son and two daughters and there and what have you, and then at the end house furthest from the lock was a family named they got two lads and oh she only used to charge half a crown. Was some families rougher than others? Definitely. In what way? Well, you learned to hold your own in those days, but some, some of them weren't too particular about bathing and what washing you know things like that, but er you got the usual crop of pigeon flies but there was no hooliganism, occasionally when, when it was election time and when Sir Richard was candidate for one year I remember, they came round and the people from Street and round that road they paraded through Caldmore and Palfry and there was a little bit of rough stuff went on there heckling and booing and shouting, but I don't think any harm done. Were there any different class of people that lived in that part of town then Street and Street and that? Well Street was really I should say the only industrial part of Caldmore or Palfry, cos there was Harveys had a factory up there and there was a little bit of factory work in Street, there was actually a small factory on the corner of Street and Lane, but the factory area was mostly in . Was the Mac's Pickle factory there when you lived in Palfry? My step brother, Tommy , do you know the original well Mr was a sales rep for Bokes couriers, and er his wife used to make pickles, homemade, and she us Mr used to give his friends a jar of pickles occasionally and er from that the idea of selling them, cos it ou after they'd started distributing amongst his friends he got the idea that there was a market for it, so my step-brother Tommy er started to work with Mrs we used to call them Mrs but her name was , Street you know where Street is, well on the left hand side of Street about oh at the back of the first row of houses in Street, there was a, a small open space and Mr had a big shed put there, and er started buying the pickling onions and er all the women who wished to started skinning onions at so much a bag for Mr and er he'd gradually built himself up but me step- brother Tommy was er working full time helping Mrs to pick the onions and, and that, that's how Mac's Pickles started was just from a mere fact of him being a commercial traveller and he'd di distribute them to his friends and created the, a market for himself really ac actually they, they, they did have a van driver and a van, a van to deliver them as they gradually increased the supply and they used to deliver them all, all around the area. When would it have been approximately when he started this would you say? I couldn't tell you exactly Was it after the First World War? Oh it was after the First World War because everything was rationed and you couldn't buy onions but er I'd say it was about seventy years ago As long as that? cos I'm eighty three now so. Do you remember the Caldmore and Palfry shopping festival it was in nineteen twenty three apparently, do you remember anything about that, anything about competitions and odd things like that? No being what I thought I was a man in those days I wasn't really interested in them, but I know there was competitions and er I believe there was different numbers posted on windows and if you got the right number you got a prize but I remember Palfry Park I'm having trouble with my eyes I've got over-active tear ducts and Have you, oh dear. I haven't got cataracts but they keep watering I remember we used to go in Shall we start from the beginning? Yes Right, mm, completely fresh start? Yes please. I was born in Wapping in the year nineteen hundred and six, my father was a docker, one of my earliest recollections is of the dock strike of nineteen hundred and eleven, in which I played a part lining up at the soup kitchens to get soup for the family. My father died when I was quite young and at ten years of age I went into a poor old orphanage where I stayed four years. I came out of the orphanage to go and live with my mother and I found myself one of the family of six living in one room, the house was a four roomed house plus a scullery. Each room was occupied by a separate family, there was one cold water tap for the whole of the four families and one outside toilet. Conditions such as those were quite common to many thousands of people and I think it was those conditions which helped to formulate and develop my political thinking. When I was eighteen I came in contact with the Catholic Crusade which was a rather left wing Christian Socialist Organization and I found that their attitude to problems contained the answers for which I had been searching for a good many years tell me when you want me to raise something. Yeah, I'd like you to tell me about erm, what the house was that you left before you came to Harlow and why you came to Harlow? Yes,if we skip all the intermediate years with, after the war I came back from the army to find we'd been bombed out and were living in requisition accommodation, after a time, the, we were moved into a new flat over some shops. My wife was working for Cossors the electronic company and they moved to Harlow and er, it, in order for her to retain her job, we had to move to Harlow as well. This proved very difficult because, between the time of the decision being taken to move Cossors to Harlow and the time that my wife, my wife's department actually went, the Development Corporation had changed their policy and would not have married women as tenants. This resulted in a great deal of correspondence between myself and the Development Corporation and at the end of it I told my wife the best thing to do was to hand her notice in as there was no chance of us ever getting a house in Harlow, fortunately her services were much more seriously in demand then we imagined and the company nominated us for one, a house which is allocated to one of their executives, the house that we're living in now and have lived in ever since nineteen sixty three. The vast difference between Stroud Green Road, Islington and Harlow. For one thing Harlow is the sort of town which I'd been agitating for both before and after the war whenever I was speaking on behalf of the Labour Party both at street corners and at public meetings on the type of life we vis envisaged for a normal person in the land. To leave Islington, to leave Stroud Green Road, to leave a flat which was over a shop overlooking a main shopping centre, overlooking a completely noisy main through road to come to Harlow was a difference between chalk and cheese. The accommodation differed in, in one respect and that, that was that in the flat we were on one floor, we had one bedroom, we moved into a house with two toilets separate bathroom and three bedrooms, which enabled us to spread our furniture around, enabled us to have visitors to receive members of the family. I think this is one of the essentials in Harlow and something that people should not forget, that is that, although there is a great deal of criticism possibly of the standard of building that went on over the years of the Development Corporation, compared with what most people came from, there was a very great elevation both in quality and in ideas. Perhaps today the general public take too much for granted, the, as a local Councillor I have to interview many people who come to me with housing problems, to be as patient as one can is essential as a politician, but after the complainant has gone, one is very conscious of the fact that their problem is so minute it is hardly worth mentioning. But nevertheless that's human nature and perhaps it's also a reason why life should not stand still, whatever progress we make both in housing and in quality of housing and the quality of life, once people are used to that, to that they expect more and this is what progress, what forward thinking is all about. Could you tell me about the house, of which you were bombed out? Was it, were you married at the time? Yes I think that over the course of our married life we had a number of moves for various reasons, generally to improve the accommodation, erm as standard of life increased so the desire to have a better house to live in or rather in those days a house was out of the question, we generally had rooms in a house, erm, they, the flat for instance that we were bombed out from was a basement flat, erm according to the estate agents it was a garden flat, erm and it meant that you had access to the front garden and the back garden, but as for being a garden flat it was below the level of the garden in the front and at the back it was on the level with the erm green grass at the back of the house, it was also along side of the trolley bus depot, so there it was considerably noisy, nevertheless it was a self contained flat, the first one we'd had, no the second one we'd had and we were perfectly happy there although of course it did have minor difficulties, the fact that you used the front door with people who had flats on the other remaining three floors, but nevertheless it did involve you in a certain amount of community living, you were aware of your neighbours, you had to be very conscious of them and they were very conscious of you. That I think perhaps is one of the striking differences between that and living in a house in Harlow, where you may or may not know your immediate neighbours. Perhaps you know them over the garden wall to speak to you, you might even know their children by name and you know their christian name, but beyond that I think it's true to say, even making allowance of generation gaps that you don't know your neighbours in the same way that you knew your neighbours in London. Whereabouts was the basement flat, was it in Islington No , that was in Islington but it was in the district called Holloway Oh yes I know it well Mm Penventon Gardens Penventon Gardens, is the hou oh of course it's not there It's not there, mm, yeah if it was bombed out yes You were in the army weren't you? Oh I was yes, I was Army I was enjoying life in the army while my wife was enjoying the bombing. She was actually in the house when the bomb dropped on the other side of the road and she was flung down two flights of stairs and the piano on the other side of the room here bears the scars of the bombing. And that curtain went from the window right across the room and pinned itself into the piano, pinned the curtains into the piano. And it also managed to chip some of the woodwork, curious to think that I was offered as war damage compensation five pounds to re-case the piano, you couldn't of had it repolished for five pounds, but thinking was working class people shouldn't have pianos, I'm certain that was at the back of, of the gentleman whose job it was to evaluate war damage, he certainly raised his eyebrows every time we told him, what either a piece of furniture or crockery or cutlery which had been destroyed had cost and he was so foolish after er the house had been almost flattened as de demand bills as proof of evidence that your figures were correct Mm, so when you left your, when you came back you said that you went into a requisition property Yes, erm, we found ourselves in, rather to go back. After the bombing my wife was housed with an with another family Who had been bombed in the top flat, they, they were rehoused in a flat in a block of mansion flats and when I came out of the army this was the accommodation I found available, er for me and I objected strongly and after a great deal of fuss erm the Islington Borough Council's Housing Department found us rooms on the first floor in a Victoria Victorian villa in Penventon Gardens, which erm, were comfortable Not Penventon Gardens Er not erm was that Sunnyside Road Sunnyside Road Sunnyside Road Sunnyside Road, and erm, it were it was good accommodation we had our own bathroom and toilet er but again accommodation was cramped, we had no spare room And we weren't proud, there was people came and er the people in the flat above us had to pass our door to get to them in the same way that we had to pass the people, tenants below doors to get to their accommodation. Erm from there we went into this purpose built flat above a grocers shop, it was meant for the manager of the grocers shop, but he had better sense and so the flat became available for letting to the Borough Council who at the insistence of the owners of the house we were in, erm, were anxious to get their property back and so we found ourselves in a brand new flat, the first tenants, although this was not very highly to be recommended, you approached your flat up er stone staircase, er from the outside so you exposed to the elements er you then walked across the roof, flat roof over the shops until you came to your flat door, erm, Islington at that time was just beginning the, to see the influx of immigrants from the colonies as they were in those days and er, they in turn created much heavier demand on what little vacant property there was, so that the district rapidly deteriorated and for many people who were not in the fortunate position that we were found it necessary or desirable to leave because they were sharing rooms or sharing houses with people whose ways of life were different from theirs and this is something I think that housing authorities learnt to appreciate over the years that the differences between people's ways of life are one of the major causes of social distress. What year was that when you moved into erm Sunnyside Road? We moved into Sunnyside Road in nineteen forty five and we moved into erm Stroud Green Road Fifty three somewhere about nineteen fifty three, yes in our town house and we left Sunnyside Road in sixty three to come to Harlow. So you've only been in Harlow since nineteen sixty three? Twenty years yes Yes it'll be twenty years next March Mhm. Could you explain to me a little bit more when you said that erm a married woman couldn't be a tenant. Yes, erm, when Harlow was designed, it was appreciated that its, the, its purpose was to house workers in the factories and the offices and also to act as an overspill from London, and in nineteen sixty when Cossors were bringing their workers by the hundreds Fifty eight Fifty eight was it? When, in nineteen fifty eight when Co Cossors were bringing, started bringing their workers here the Development Corporation were very anxious to let houses and, so that it, it didn't matter whether the worker was male or female, he or she was accepted as a tenant, by the time we came to move in Harlow in nineteen sixty three the Development Corporation reneged on its promise to house my wife. At that time erm, I was a commercial traveller and Harlow was part of my district and they reluctantly accepted the fact that because I was a commercial traveller working in Harlow that I actually did work in Harlow which was stretching a point, but I really think that the Development Corporation's officials were getting a little tired of my being able to talk their own language and to write letters in the same vein as they could write, they weren't used to this, and, at any rate, as I said earlier we got here. We were offered some awful things though, in the first place Erm, I've always been interested in housing and it did appear to me that however delightful Harlow may be, when the architects were designing properties, they designed a property without any consideration for the people who were to live in them. We were offered a flat, which would of mea if we'd of accepted it would of meant we would have to of sold every stick of furniture because the rooms were not large enough Can you tell me the name of the block of flats or the address of it? That was er a flat in Plumtree, we were offered a flat on the first floor and when we examined the kitchen it was extremely obvious to me that our gas cooker wouldn't fit in the, the place where it was designed to fit, when I asked where do we put the washing machine I was informed that most tenants kept the washing machine on the balcony, when I said well where do we put the refrigerator, well most people keep the refrigerator either in the hall or, or rather not a hall it was a passageway, in the passageway or in the living room, now it does seem to me with hindsight that if that's planning I, to use an old fashion London phrase, I'm a Dutchman. Was the living room a com a com combined sitting and dining room? Combined everything except bedroom, there was one separate bedroom Only one bedroom? Yes erm, it was very obvious from the word go that they didn't want us. It was for a single person really wasn't it there? Well I would of thought so, although today it must be admitted that single people, don't get offered one bedroom flats, but then in those days there wasn't the shortage of accommodation that there is today Next question Erm, could you tell me erm something about how you felt about the change of coming to this house, you know whether you enjoyed it? Well I suppose at the, one of the best things, best examples of the difference was that my wife when she saw this house, knew that it was a house in which she could be happy, in which her tastes and, could spread themselves, erm rather than her tastes having to be curtailed by lack of space and lack of accommodation, erm, the fact that I had a garage which was essential er next to my house instead of some er quarter or twenty minutes' walk away from where I lived as happened in London also made a terrific difference to comfort, erm the fact that there was a garden instead of a few windowboxes and a couple of tubs, all these things I think made one appreciate the fact that you'd come, not only into a new town, but into a new way of life probably the fact that we had a staircase inside the house, which was the first time that we'd had a staircase between our bedrooms and our living rooms Mm so in all purp in, in always, the fact that you'd come into this house made one realize that there'd been a distinct change in one's circumstances. And did you feel that it affected your lifestyle? That you could do, you mention that you could now entertain Erm your friends well we always had entertained friends but we'd never been in a position to put them up so that erm most of our friendly visits were from people who didn't live very far from us, it meant that families, nieces, nephews etcetera were difficult to accommodate because they had to sleep on a couch or a settee in the living room with all its diff difficulties, especially when it meant in the morning for breakfast you had to get them up and dressed before you could start thinking about breakfast, and I think that those sort of things are things that er people ought to take into consideration when thinking about new housing. One of the beefs I have about accommodation for elderly people is the fact that by, that the purpose built, very excellent, bungalows and flats for elderly citizens are restricted to one bedroom which, to which but is by government decree to keep the cost down, but it does seem to me to be very heartless because elderly people's children are unable to come and stay with them except to the great deal of discomfort and perhaps as society grows a little more considerate for the fact that the percentage of elderly people will get even greater as the years go on, then they should make allowance and provide them for the facilities to enable them to be visited by their children and grandchildren. Did you erm leave family behind when you came away from London? No we never had a family so we were entirely foot free and foot loose. But apart from children I meant sisters or brothers Oh yes or parents or yes, erm my wife came from the Midlands, from Coventry and her family roots were in Coventry at the Midlands, in fact there she still has numerous nieces and nephews and great nephews and great nieces there to this day, my with the exception of a sister who moved, who, to Basildon, erm I have two brothers and er they still live in London, still live in East Ham, er the distance is not too great erm and, but obviously as we get older the amount of visiting we do will be constricted by the difficulties of getting from Harlow to East Ham especially when one is compelled to stop driving a motor car Did you bring furniture with you when like when you moved into Harlow? Oh yes, yes, we, the we had an extremely large rooms, I don't know went, what, what, what went wrong the architect but we had two enormous rooms which could of been quite easily divided into three, but we could of had two bedrooms instead of one and the conse Er, sorry to interrupt you are you speaking about this house? No, the flat The flat, right the flat in, in London, the flat we came from and so we had accumulated a little more furniture than one would usually have in two rooms and the kitchen and we got here and were allowed to spread ourselves, if there's one criticism that one could say about this house, is that the size of the rooms confines you to what you put in them, they're square, that the, the division between the living room and the dining room is through a pair of glass doors, where perhaps that could of been arranged with either sliding doors or some other feature so as not to separate it yet again into two square boxes and erm Are you in favour of open plan? er, it depends on one's own tastes, I personally don't like the open planned that I've seen in very modern houses where, erm I, I don't quite know how to express it but it does seem to me odd to be on one floor level and then two feet up you're on another level and er, that's one aspect of the open plan that doesn't appeal to me and I don't quite understand why it's necessary to have everything that's going on in one room with pieces of furniture designed to act as barriers between the different functions or purposes for which you give parts of the room. So how do you how do you see the ideal way of arranging a room? The ideal way, way of arranging a room as I see it would be that you could have your separate rooms but have sliding doors, after all there's nothing new in sliding doors, er, but doors opening and closing erm are restrictive, that's only my own personal view, my wife doesn't necessarily, necessarily share that view ideally if I was planning a house, the main room the main living room would be much larger than the one we live in, it would certainly be a different shape, erm when we had our golden wedding erm our visitors were so numerous that they were standing shoulder to shoulder in these two rooms and the kitchen whereas if it had been a reasonably designed house maybe we could of spread them around a little more, but they're minor, minor defects that are not really serious. I think today that if someone was designing a house one would incorporate all the modern additions which have suddenly become fashionable such as double porches, doubleglazing and er patio windows, I think that these things are perhaps a development from, in the same way as this house is a development from the rooms and the flats we lived in in London so that the modern conceptions of the things I've mentioned could be incorporated as normal in the house certainly would be cheaper to incorporate them when building the house than adding them on. When was this house built? Well I don't know the exact date but I believe this house is some thirty years old, so it was built about nineteen fifty three, fifty two, fifty three Does it have central heating? Does it have central heating? No it has central heating now, but it didn't when we moved in. Did you own the house? No Erm, did the Council put the central heating in? Council put the central heating in when we got advanced in years and when it became necessary in the doctor's opinion for me to have central heating because I had a heart complaint. So it's, the, the Council doesn't install central heating as a matter of course only if it's a special case? The Council has a policy now of bringing all its properties up to date, but priority because they're, bringing the houses up to date will take some eight years, priority is given to elderly citizens and people with medical needs. Do you like the orientation of the house? Do you feel that it's pointing the right way, bringing the sun in through the right windows at the right time of day? That's a little difficult to answer, if you're watching television, the sun can be a nuisance Yes of course when it comes in, pours in those, the house faces west er consequently although it's very pleasant in the afternoon and evenings when you're not watching television erm, it has its drawbacks on the other hand the garden is most unfortunately orientated alright? I think that's a minor problem but perhaps architects now pay a little more attention to and that is that, in the afternoon when you like to sit in the evening when you like to sit in the garden in the sunshine you are sitting in the shadow because the house er is between the sun and the garden I can't think of any more questions for the moment Alright So do you think I could ask you something about what you please tell No we're alright please tell me when you want me to go because Yeah if I over st don't let me over stay No, no, no, no. Er I liked to ask you erm about if you, if you think that Harlow lives up to the ideal of the New Town? It could be asked what is disappointing about Harlow, and I suppose that the first thing that strikes one is the design fault so far is the road work, the road network is concerned and er, and the inadequacy of the road, for roads for modern traffic. Very obviously when this town was designed and laid out and nobody foresaw the growth of the private motor car, er today private motor car is accepted, but in a town which was built perhaps the idea that one in twenty would own a motor car and we're now faced with the probably one in three have a motor car, we're now faced with a problem which can only detract from life in the town, also the fact that huge lorries are passing through what were envisaged as quiet residential neighbourhoods with a consequent breaking of curbs and of paving stones where the lorries are compelled to mount the pavings in order to get round parked cars and things of that nature it detracts from the life in Harlow I do, I think a considerable extent, erm, the other factor is that there's become a lack of pride in the town by the people who live in it, this is seen from the amount of rubbish, and refuse that is dropped from the minor vandalism that goes on the graffiti, er particularly in underpasses where people are walking to the town centre and that, those are the things where the town has lost its way, when we first came here you never saw bits of paper and packages from sweets and cigarettes and things, perhaps maybe because the package industry has developed over the years and that er whereas whenever we had responsibility for taking a small child out, if it had sweets it was encouraged to put the wrappings in its pocket until it got home, now of course it's encouraged to drop it just where it wants to and er this not only applies to children, some of the worst culprits are the adults who leave the, leave the public houses with a can of beer to drink on the way home and drop it just when they've finished the last drop of beer or the fish and chip paper's just dropped. I think this is detracting, I think it's inconsiderate, it certainly shows a lack of respect for one's neighbours or indeed for the town one lives in and yet very often I'm fully aware of the fact that the people who do the dropping are the first to complain that the Council doesn't keep the town clean. What, do you think that there's any connection between what you mentioned before about when you claimed for er bomb damage erm that working class people about being, supposed to have a piano, do you think there's a connection between that sort of idea and the idea of people that lived in Harlow in Council houses shouldn't have cars? No, I don't think that had a great deal to do with it, erm it was question that when the town was designed the, there hadn't been this sudden burst in living standards. If you compare when we first came to Harlow, which is only twenty years ago, the possession of a television set, erm was only just becoming the normal thing Mm the possession of the motor car was just becoming the norm, but the town had been designed fifteen years earlier And what do you think of the idea of ways that the, that the way the house types were graded, the fact that some of them were in fact meant to be executive or managerial classes and others were meant to be for people with less income, do you think that this is again recreating this sort of class system within the planning of the town? I think that what we've got is the acceptance by the designers and the planners of the class system that they knew Mm they had no vision of a classless society, erm, personally while I've no desire to see uniformity, I see no earthly reason why some people because they have a lower income should be compelled to live in inferior and perhaps crowded conditions, whereas the man with five or six or seven times their income can choose a larger house in a much more delightful district and I think it is things like that that make the difference between what I as a young socialist agitator was advocating and what we find today. I find too that circumstances compel a socialist Council like Harlow to be constrained and constricted when building, there are too many laws and regulations which are based on the fact that, for instance, today's government thinks that people who rent houses are second class citizens. Can you give an example when you say that the law is designed? Yes, erm, let us take one little factor, this question of the agitating the media and the, today, and that is the reduction in interest charges. Now when interest charges fall, the person who is buying the house benefits from the reduction in interest charges, but the person who is renting a house in local authority and then in this case nobody, nobody else in Harlow to rent it from, is faced with, not with a decreased monthly rental, but with an ever increasing one because as more and more Council houses are sold the cost of maintaining that there, the superstructure of the town, the cost of maintaining Council houses goes on increasing and so the burden is laid on the tenants and the tenant can find, will find himself that pound for pound increasing his rent while the house owner is decreasing his mortgage charges and at the end of the day the tenant is paying increased rent, increased rate and with nothing to show for it, erm, I've always been in favour of a sale, of, of property er owner occupiers, but not at the expense of the people who cannot afford to be owner occupiers, ah, to my mind, the present housing system is designed to maintain the existing class structure because even with the large discounts that one gets and nobody's ever yet convinced me that why you should get a discount because you buy a Council house, but if you buy one privately owned you can't get a discount and it, there's, this, this is so utter nonsense, but it is throwing a much heavier burden every time a house is sold on the remaining houses which are for rent, and so you that, although the idea is to make it a classless this society with more and more people owning their own properties the mo the mere fact that the majority of people in the town cannot afford to buy even the reduced priced Council house, is an example that the, the system, the class system a division by income still exists. Yeah may I ask Mrs some more questions? Would you mind answering some questions? Well she's a bit shy, but I'll help her. I wanted to ask you about the furniture. Can you hold it, if you just hold it about, like that, yes. Erm, do you mind answering some questions about your furniture? Oh, well, what do you want to know? Erm, you seem to like modern furniture Yes, yes Why did you choose modern furniture? Well . Well,, what can we do for you tonight? Er . Must be five pound notes you keep in there. good and passport. Oh I see right. And er For who? Patrick . getting these prescriptions for? Patrick ? You're daft. It was for Patrick . Er,see give her something the wee'uns, he's got two wee Has he been bad to that poor wee, wee'un again? thingummy, abscesses in his er in his tooth. She cannae take him in to the dentists till she gets rid of them. She's a bad woman. You tell her I said it's just pure neglect. Tell her I said that will you? Mhm. And she'll belt you. Now then Now what age is the wee fellow now? Two and? He's three. Is he, is he three now? Mhm. He's four in December. Is he? Three and a half already? Aye. You must be getting old. Aye. Now, what about you? Er I want me cream. And I want something for my chest.. Have you not given up smoking yet? I've been doing well for the last week, but I took this heavy cold, well from Thursday, since I've took this heavy cold I've hardly smoked. I'll get you yet, I'll get you yet. I've hardly smoked. I've done really well. Oh now What ? Is it still the ? Yes,. There you go. Can't you give me something for head? Cos it's splitting, I think it's just the cold. Dry rot set in. There you are, and that'll help to turn you into a human being. I've been helping everybody who's took that flu, and I think I've . at last at last it's reached you. Away home and look after yourself. Never mind the rest of these puddings. Let them get their own prescriptions. You're too soft, you and Celia. Aye you are. Y d Oh, everybody me. That's right. It's always me. That's right. It's always tell them to go and Ah, when you tell them to do that, especially with , she goes in a with you. Oh too too bad, too bad. She goes in a . Och, sure you're worried about her. Aren't you? Sure you're worried about her? Right, okay,, cheerio now. Cheerio. this weekend and the er That's That's alright good. So saying today, we'll give the give all the acids alkalis and bases a bit of a rest yes. erm look at some of the more general stuff. Now is there anything you want to look at? Er Particularly where you've more or less got the idea of it but you think you just want to sort of tidy up a few details an I don't think Nothing that to hand immediately, no. One of the things we were talking about last time was separating mixtures and solvents. Yeah. Erm it's an obvious one but it's easy to miss. How do you separate sand and salt? I mean they won't say sand and salt, they'll say something which is insoluble and give it a horrible chemical name Yeah. And something which is soluble with another horrible and you'll think Er I don't know. But just think just Mix it in with water and then filter it out. Yeah, just like sand and salt. They might say How do you make sure it'd pure? Well you you wash then one that's not soluble. Or they might say how would you get a sort of a clean dry version of it? So you know what to do for that. Mm. Wash it and dry it. Erm I dunno. I mean things like that You're not gonna have any trouble with that, are you? No. they represent different atoms. Which ones are mixtures an Er That one's erm n Which one's mixtures, that's a mixture. That's well They're all the same. Yeah. That's the black Filled in version is one type of atom and that's another Yeah. type of atom, so how many types of atom are there in B? One. So what's is that a mixture of er no it's a No okay. Element. Right, and this one. So Is which ones are mixtures then? Er that one. Okay. Any others? Just looking er Can't th No there isn't. What about this one. It's a compound isn't it? Cos they've bonded with each other. Okay Which diagram r represents a mixture of atoms? Mm. that one, that one So you have to be careful what they mean there. The following list of substances, have a look at that. One point two. Which metal is a liquid at room temperature and pressure? Mercury. Okay. Name the two elements present in common salt. Sodium and chlorine. Great. Name a non-metal present in oil. Eh? Er Carbon. that's an awkward one,Yeah good. Which element is yellow in colour? Sulphur. Name the element used in street lighting. Sodium. Er Name a compound. Er s compound er Well what was Sodium Chloride Great yeah. Read this Name a mixture. Yeah. the should ask for the two elements present in common salt and they say Name a compound. Name a mixture. er Presumably they mean out of this lot. Yeah, er Carbon dioxide. mixture no. Er water, no that's a compound er You keep saying the answer actually. Oxygen. Er What do you keep saying while your thinking Air. Yeah okay. And wh what is air a mixture of then? Er Some of the things that are in it . Er Nitrogen, oxygen, Carbon dioxide . Yeah yeah, yeah. Nitrogen and oxygen are the two big They're the two main ones and then anything else you can put. Carbon dioxide, good and then you get all the funny, little trace gases. Okay,What's this then? Erm Filtration you know. A liquid. So D No Is Five. Complete the following sentence. Something is the process of separating a liquid from sediment by pouring. Er So if you had a beaker full of sand with Mm. water on it. You're just pouring the water off Mm. carefully so that, you didn't Oh. any of the sand. Can Oh. you remember what it's called? No. It's a funny name. Decanting. Decantation. Oh yeah. It's erm You don you don't come across it very Yeah. much so I wouldn't bother about it too much. It's used to separate cream from milk. Again not too common. But this one, what what's the thing that's left on the D or E ? C er C. What's the thing that's left on the filter paper? A something is the solid left on the filter er eh ah. Which is the one that passes through the filter paper? Er Oh what is it I've . The no, yeah? Mm. Maybe. They start they both start with er think of sort of fil. I know it . Fil.. Filtrates. It's what happens to half the answers. Erm Right so, what's left over? The residue. Okay. And we're left with this filtrate The filtrate is what goes through. There's an oil called filtrate, have you seen it? It's No. quite an old fashioned erm been going for years. They've been going for years, they've been making motor oils, engine oil, it's called filtrate so that's the liquid. That maybe a way of remembering it. Erm Yeah that's those are the important ones, the residue and the filtrate and erm problem with that then? Mm. Radioactivity. What you what do you What are the important things about radioactivity? Erm it can't What is radioactivity? Er erm Okay, erm Can you give Do you know any anything which is radioactive? Uranium, plutonium which is made out of uranium. Okay so they're reactive erm Is this a good thing this radioactivity? No. Not if you're standing close to it . Definitely not! Okay er why not? What's it do to you? Erm it's carcinogenic. Causes cancer. Erm Not a good idea. Erm have you heard of half life? Yeah. What does that mean? that, that's how long it takes for half of the radioactive isotopes to disappear. Great, yeah, that's a wonderful definition. Eh. Okay so if start of with sort of kilogramme, a year later you've got half a kilogramme Its half life is a year. then after another year from when you had half a kilogramme, a year later how much would you have? Er quarter of a kilogramme. yeah. each each year it sort of goes down to half. Okay. Erm radioactivity is You have to sort of get into what's happening inside the nucleus to understand it. What sort of particles have we got inside the nucleus. Erm Inside the nucleus. Neutrons, mm . Okay neutrons. Er protons. And protons. Yeah. Neuto neutrons and protons . And protons. And you get I mean it might be an idea if you could sort of handle this formula but it's not important really. A neutron it's a a piece of uranium. It's the It Yeah. has to hit the uranium nucleus, and breaks it up into two other particles and it releases three neutrons. So if you think of the nucleus of uranium, lots of protons and lots of neutrons all bunched up together. Er snooker ball if you like, whacks into them, a neutron hits them and scatter them, and it forms into two big clumps, the new elements, two new elements and three odd snooker balls come flying out. Okay? Mm. Now why is it important that we get When we sort of fire neutron in we get at least one neutron coming out? Erm otherwise it would be a different element. Mm. if it ha Say you fired one in and one didn't come out it would have one extra Well well yeah, it is a different element because I mean the neutrons don't effect the chemical properties very much. Uranium U two three five U two three eight, the only difference is o ones got a few more neutrons than the other. But what happens here is that the nucleus itself breaks into two big lumps with a different number of protons in now, so you've got two new elements. So they don't use up all the prot all the neutrons that the uranium had. three of them come out, now what happens if there are Right you fire this snooker ball into one uranium nucleus, it splits off and then three snooker balls come flying out and there's more uranium about what's gonna happen? There's gonna be a So if they hit if one of those hits another nucleus, Mm. that one will break up as well, Will break up an and release another three neutrons which can then hit another nucleus. So on and so on and so on. And what do you call this? Er a chain reaction. Right okay so that's why it's important that we get I mean if we just got one neutron out then theoretically you could sustain a chain reaction, but in practice it would be absorbed, it wouldn't they wouldn't all hit, some of them would miss, but as long as we can get on average about one, of those three, hitting another one, we can keep it going, and we get this chain reaction going and th the heat really builds up then, and that's what they use in a a nuclear reaction reactor. Okay. Do you know about the different types of radiation? Erm alpha, beta, gamma radiation? Er I think so, yeah. Sort of. S er I can't remember which is which. One of them names, what roughly what do they do? Er some of them are at different se strength er Okay. One can only be blocked by lead. Mhm. Er we haven't really done much on it to No, be honest. okay. I mean some you can stop 'em with a s sheet of thick paper or others will go through very solid objects and as you say you need a good sheet of lead to stop it. Erm right. Gamma radiation. We've got alpha, beta, gamma and gamma radiation is the stuff that stuff Really takes some stopping. When they when these particles sort of go into your body, what do they do? Er oh erm don't know. Okay, okay. Erm well a lot of them are charged part I mean if you think of let's say the neutron, it smashes into a uranium atom which is a big, really massive nucleus, and splits it up. So if these neutrons come smashing into your body, they could break up any of chemicals that are very important for your life, for your body chemistry. One of the things they do tend to do is upset cells, upset the way cells replicate, which is why they start doing weird things and go off and get cancerous. Erm very common question is one the the different types of radiation, alpha, beta and gamma. And this this comes up, so often. Explain what is meant by the term Half life. Right, three marks and then they say The half life of iodine one three one is eight days.If you have a total mass Initial mass of one gramme, how much would you have left after eight days? Okay? So you could do that one, no problem. One naturally occurring radioactive metal which is used in nuclear power stations. erm, I said it before erm er er Uranium. Right, watch out for that one. That you don't say plutonium because that's not a naturally occurring Plutonium, yeah. I'm pretty sure about that. Yeah that one's but I mean th if they say Name one radioactive metal, in nuclear power stations, then okay you can say radium er uranium or plutonium, but if they want a naturally occurring one then you're not gonna get any marks for saying plutonium. And then name one radioactive metal which is made in a power station? Okay. Most of our electricity is obtained from nuclear power stations or by b or by burning fuels. Two other sources of energy. Which can be used to Water, wind er You alright? Yeah. It's black with no sugar isn't it? That's lovely. Thanks very much. Coke. Yeah I mean I think you're pretty good on those, you know about alternative sources of energy and you've got a pretty good idea of nuclear power, what it's about erm you know half life erm Then this gets onto the technical bit. Control rods in a nuclear reactor, often contain boron. Give the electronic structure of a boron atom, one mark. Well perhaps you wouldn't bother with that. Erm What do the control rods do? Er There's a nuclear reaction which Inside the reactor, and that heats up water and the control rods is nuclear fuel, is it? Uranium, they've just put into the reactor, and it reacts with the other, I don't know what exactly how it works but, er What do the control rods sound as if they're doing? They're controlling the reaction. Right what would happen if you didn't have any control rods, in your nuclear reactor? Someone just pulled the control rods out. It wouldn't work. It would. It would work very well Ah. It would run away, you'd get meltdown. See these these three neurons coming out every time one neutron goes in this chain reaction's getting bigger and bigger. Erm and all the uranium is fissioning, it's all splitting up, it's generating immense quantities of heat Mm. and it'll explode, so the control rods are to absorb these extra neutrons. I mean if y if you put the control rods right in, it won't run at all. No. Because any If okay the odd couple of neutrons did get through, they'd split up an atom, three more neutrons come out and they're immediately absorbed by the control rods. So when you run to get it started off, you have all your uranium fuel rods in the reactor and you're control rods and it's it's shut down at that stage okay, then you gradually start withdrawing the control rods, and see what's happening. If the temperature starts going put 'em down a little bit more. Yeah. And keep it so it's just ticking over, so that on average you're absorbing two of these neutrons, say and just one is going on to st start another one, and you just you know ju It's very fine control on the fuel rods. Yeah. They usually run them at below peak efficiency, they run The Russian reactors they tend to run 'em at maximum efficiency which is you're very very close to the critical level where it could run away with a little mistake and whoops, you got Chernobyl. Okay, so that's what the control rods do, erm they're m also known as moderators, the Mm. rods that go in there. Erm another question on there, isotopes, what's an isotope? Erm is it, It's not an atom but it's You couldn't break say a piece of uranium or into an atom, but you could break it up into an isotope. An isotope is say several atoms put together No. It's like a molecule is it? like a molecule. Erm Think of two types of uranium, U two three five and U two three eight. They've got a different atomic weight, cos they've got a different number of neutrons, but they got the same number of protons and they've got the same pattern of electrons, and the pattern of those outer electrons is what decides its chemical properties. So if you did a few chemical test on U two three five, U two three eight, you wouldn't be able to tell the difference. same thing. And they're called isotopes, of the same element. the only difference in the isotopes is one's got a few extra neutrons. So that's that's basically what an isotope is, it's a an element that has. Or isotopes of an element, they have the same chemical properties, they have the same outer structure and very much the same inner structure apart from one's got a few extra neutrons. Right. So that's that's an isotope. There are other isotopes, not just uranium. have you heard of erm carbon fourteen, carbon twelve? Yeah. Do they use it for dating? yeah. Geological finds and things well, erm very often some of You'll find that some of the isotopes are radioactive and they break down into other things. So you need to know what an isotope is. Erm now the periodic table, we've looked at that before and it's the if you knew the periodic table and where everyone fitted in,every all the elements fitted in or you if you had a copy, you could very intelligent guesses. yeah. Erm there's a new element here, you've never heard of it before let's say Carbon fif Well we do get a copy of the periodic table in the exams. Yeah so They say what properties do you expect lithium to have, you'll have a look at it and you'll say well it's sort of going to be the same as sodium and potassium, rally. I mean you'll work out whether it's a bit more reactive or a bit less. And this is this is the bonding that we were thinking of as a couple of magnets or thinking of it as electrs electrostatic charge. C can really This one is magnesiums going round with two extra electrons there that it wants to get rid of Yeah. And these two fluorines are both saying Oh I'd really This one's saying I'd love one extra electron to go in there, it just make up my set of eight, same Yeah. for this one, so they, the three of them get together, the one M G and the two Fs. And then they can all be turn Then they're happy they This is sort of lent if you like, they say donated but think of it as lent, it's lent its electrons to the fluorines cos it wants to get rid of them and the fluorines wanted to take them so, it makes this nice bond. Right, here's one where they give you a little bit of the table This this is a That's a fairly complicated sort of thing that they give on the table, erm give you the valencies and the A good guess. Still there's quite a bit. Oxidation and reduction. What's Do you know what that is? Do you know what oxidation is? Er Right, so what what happens when a piece of paper burns, or sugar burns or It's coal. it's reacting and taking up oxygen. Okay, yeah, great. So that's that's the that's the big sort of main definition of oxidation, taking up oxygen. And the other on the other definition that we chemists use is if you take hydrogen from it. It's also oxidation. And then there's this other one where i where it loses electrons, that's sort of stretching it a bit. I mean it is it is genuinely part of the definition but the definition they had originally has got stretched and stretched so now it it doesn't there's no obvious tie up with oxidation, meaning burning and taking up oxygen, and reduction is the of opposite, so if you get the oxygen out or you put hydrogen in or where it gains electrons. Erm have you done anything on ionic lattices or giant metal lattices? You seen any erm X-ray crystallography pictures? No. No. You can take X-ray pictures of these crystalline atoms, like salt and the all because, they all fit into a nice little pattern, you know when we were sort of playing about with them as though they've go t magnets on? Well they all make a a pattern sort of alternate sodium chlorine sodium chlorine big block. This is all all chemistry, now can you remember those? I always And equations It's not so much the equations Yeah the models as the what that was all about. Tell me what you remember that was about? Erm Not the actual chemicals but just the sort of question, that you'd get. Er what is the molar mass of say you had s erm Oh. Twenty grammes of a substance. Okay. er Oh pick a pick an equation that you know, pretty well. Mm an equation? Mm, like how do you make salt? Er How do you make common salt? Sodium and Chlorine. Mhm. But we don't normally make it like that. Yeah, I know. Er I did say we'd keep away from acid plus alkali gives Yeah. Gives what? Er water and a salt. Right, so which acid and which alkali would you use to make N A C L? Er, chlorine yeah? Yeah so which which acid is that chlorine going to come from? Er Sodium chloride, no that's salt. Er that's what we're making, sodium Yeah. chloride so we're gonna get that chloride from one of the the acids. Yeah er Oh. Which acid has got a C L in its formula? Don't worry about it. N A C L. er nitric acid. No. N A C Oh fucking hell! It's gotta it's almost got a chlorine sound in its name. I can't think of it. We'll have we'll we'll have a very short tiny tiny little look at it even though it's almost a holiday, right. What have we got, we we want to we want to finish up with sodium chloride N A C L N A and a C L. Yeah. Right. So we've got to get this It's hydrogen chloride Right great okay, right ? Oh I was thinking too hard. Yeah, okay so there's an H C L and we've got to get the N A from something, that's the acid and now we need an alkali. An alkali with sodium in it and the one's we usually use are the hydroxides. Yeah. So what's sodium hydroxide. Erm N A er it's got Hydrogen H, N A O H. That's it, good. N A O H. So there's the N A positive and the O H negative, so that's where we get our sodium chloride from and the H positive and the O H mix what does the H positive and the O H give us? Erm, H two O. Right,water. And we get H two O there. So they'd say erm write down the I mean if you're lucky they'll give perh perhaps on some questions they'll give it to you and on others they'll say write it down. Write down the formula, the equation for making sodium chloride, and then they'd say How many We want to make say two tonnes of sodium chloride, how many tonnes of hydrochloric acid is tat going to use up? Or maybe, the don't often but they can say How many tonnes of hydrochloric acid and how many tonnes of N A O H would we need to make that. And they're not bothered about how much water you make. But that one As you saw from the the past papers that's a usually quite a bit of marks go in for that. And it's a doddle really isn't it? Yeah. They give They'll tell you erm they'll give you a list of the weights for C L. N A, H all the rest of them. You just put them into the formula, ad them up and then you do your Well let's say fifty eight fifty eight tonnes of H C L gives say a hundred and twenty tonnes of N A C L. So how many tonnes would give one? Er eight tonne will give one tonne of N A C L. Erm Fifty eight tonnes will give us a hundred and twenty tonnes. Er I'm n How much do we Er how Let's say let's say we want to make Can you repeat the question I didn't quite Okay let's let's say fifty eight tonnes of H C L gives a hundred and twenty tonnes of N A C L. Alright, how many And we want to make two hundred tonnes of N A C L. Right, can I give So, how much would you need? To make a hundred and twenty, right Yep . You divide that by a hundred and twenty, divide they cancel out so it's so to make one tonne of N A C L you use fifty eight over a hundred and twenty then you just times that by erm hundred and twenty times by two. Got it? And that would be Brilliant! Yep, yep. and that's it, so that's that's the key to it. Well how much would I need to make one tonne? And then once you've got that it doesn't matter what it doesn't matter if they're asking to make fifty three point five or whatever. Once you've worked out how much you need to make one to Now that, that question is is a gift really isn't it? Yeah. There's bound to be something of , alright if I say there's bound to be perhaps this year there won't but Yeah. Going I it's on just about every year, cos it's an important part of the the chemistry. And it's not, you know, it's not really much chemistry in it, especially if they don't ask you f for this er equation but they just give it to you. And they give you all the other information you need. So that's that's one to Every now and again on your own just look through a couple of the papers and have a go at that, so that when it does come up on the exam you're not kicking yourself MM. and saying . I knew this, I was doing it I was getting the right answer! put the light on. Yeah, put the light on it's getting a bit Dull as if it's gonna pour out there isn't it? Yeah. it really is. So, on that,wh not if but when that question comes up you should do very well on it I think. Yeah. Yeah? And that was very quick as well, the way you worked it out, it's not gonna take you long to pile up with quite a few marks on that. And leave more for the others Have you done anything about gas volumes? No, no. P one V one T one, doesn't mean anything to you? That's an interesting one. Some of these . Erm five point four,Which one of these just tell me about which one whether you think they're correctly It's incorrectly whether they're correctly or incorrectly go through it, each each bit at a time, show me how you're checking it. it's got two on either side Yeah so that's good so that's correctly balanced. ER what about the C Ls? Oh yeah, it's got three C L two and that ones got So how many C Ls all together in three C L two? Erm there's six. Yep, okay. And in that one there's only three. Ah, are there? Oh it's two Right , think of think of it with the brackets on, two times the whole compound, and the Yeah. compound has got two Yeah. has got three C Ls in, so you've got your two times three again, so that one's okay. Right. Right. Two H two plus O two. So there's two, there's four Hs on that side Right. plus two Os. On this side, no that's not because it's only Yeah there is two Os Right , there. think of the whole compound as bracketed. Two lots of H two O. you could write it as gives H two O plus H two O. Yeah. been a bit long winded doing that. Right, there's one Z on Z N on this side there's only one Z N on this side. This C U, there's only one here Mhm. there's only one here. the S O four, yeah there's only one there and there's only one there so that's balanced . Okay, so that's okay. F E two O three and an F E two Yeah there's two F E Right F Es are okay, what about the Os? The Os. How many Os all together on this side? There's four Os here How many? Four, one two three there's three from there, and how many from this one? One, two. Right. There's five. Think think of think of the brackets, right . There's five, yeah. So it's sort of two And there's six here. Right, so we've got five there, three add two. And on that side we've got six, so that one's not balanced. Erm and what about Is it balanced as far as the Cs go? Er we don't really need to go any further because we've found it's not balanced but we just for completeness, how many Cs on this side? Er there's two. Yeah, two Cs from the two C Os, and how many Cs on that side? Three. Three from the three , so the Cs aren't balanced either. Right. What about this last one? There's one C U on that side, Mhm. and on the other side, there's one C U. Yes so that's okay. The S O four, there's one S O four on that side, and on the other side there's one S O four. Right, that's good. Yeah. There's two N A on this side and there's two N A on Mhm. that side. There's one two a O H on that side Good, two O Hs cos it's bracketed around the whole lot. and then there's two O Hs there. Right so that's okay, so it was just that one that wasn't. That's that's the sort of erm quick question that they give that if you know what you're doing, again it's easy marks. So it's getting use to the notation, the number that goes in front of the compound applies to everything in the compound. So if we had two N A two S O four, that would be two times N A two you've got four N As and two times the S O four. Okay that was good. I didn't think I mean there's any Easy one here, plot the graph. Yeah. Yeah. Hate those questions because they take so much time. Really I find. I I feel as though I'm not doing anything useful. You think though, this is a doddle, this is Mm. Poom! Plot it away and draw the graph, but it's you know Mm. W would have we got for this one, say? See Mm. Quite a few marks. Oh yeah I'd do it, I'm just saying I'm So eight marks on it. Erm again practice would help. Before you draw it, look for what they're going to ask you. Because you might start from nought or something I mean they don't often do this but you might start from nought, and then they ask you What is it at minus ten? And you've started at nought here and you can't work out Hi . where your Hi. Everything okay? Yeah. Yes fine thanks. Do you want to have a drink or have you had one? I've got one thanks. Been looked after. Did anybody ring at all Andy? No. Okay, well I won't disturb you in the study. Okay. So, before you decide on your end points on the graph, just check where they're asking read the volume at twenty degrees C, that's okay. So if you do your nought to hundred, and draw your graph and just read off, what it gets on twenty. So again, erm a way of picking up a few marks, quite a few. Yeah. Eight marks there, for something that's not really chemistry. Draw a graph. Mm. If you can draw a graph you can you can get that. And all these are going to sort of pile up so that your The chemistry that you do know is going to you know Yeah. Throw that in as well, and you'll have a pass. Have you done much on electrolysis? Er a little bit, yeah. Mhm. Copper plating things and silver plating them Er how they make aluminium. Okay Mm. how they make aluminium. Erm where do they make aluminium? Er Who makes the kitchen fol, that you've probably got in your kitchen. Don't know, I've never looked. Made in France Probably Al Probably Alcan. Yeah. Aluminium Canada. Cos they've so much hydroelectric Though they've got the er but they've erm They're used to Lots of hydroelectricity, you need lots and lots of electricity, and it's very expensive, so there they've got big hydroelectric schemes and they make it. And what'll happen when you pass when you pass a current through hydrochloric acid? Well what's hydrochloric acid? What's the formula for it? H plus and C L negative, so what gasses would you think would come off when you pass electricity through it . Erm Carbon dioxide. Wh wh what was it again ? I I heard you wrong, what did you say ? We got we got hydrochloric acid. Yeah. Right. Yeah. That's hydrochloric acid. Yeah. But you think of it as if we move away slightly from the magnets Oh it'll be in that they're electrically they really are electrical charges, and somebody comes up with a big positive electrical pole of a a battery You're getting off hydrogen. Okay, so you get hydrogen Sorry I don't know what came over me. Right, you'll get off hydrogen there and Chlorine. And chlorine, alright. Erm Yeah they used to have a lot of trouble in submarines and things as they had problems with their batteries flooding and then they start to electrolyzing the sodium chloride, the salt the sea water, and getting chlorine given off. It's not nice thing . Leave that. This is a similar sort of thing to passing current through, but this time we're using it as a battery. Yeah So the Z N, something that'll conduct, in dilute sulphuric acid, almost any dilute will, pure water won't conduct. Everyone says Well water, you know, really conducts electricity Mm. if it's absolutely pure It won't It's not a brilliant conductor at all, but l there's always a little bit of impure, a little bit acid, say from Mm. carbon dioxide in the air, enough to make it conduct. And it splits up, so your your Z N double positive comes out of the zinc rod. Double positives are taken away making it negative and your H positives go in here, making it positive, so you get a you get a little a little potential difference, a little difference in voltage, which gives a Any any two metals if you put them together and make them a bit damp, or even if you don't make them damp, you usually get a little a tiny voltage. So if we pick metals that have got a big difference in their electrical potentials, we're gonna get a useful battery. The er this is This sort of cell, you can call it a cell rather than a battery, makes electricity. Now a normal car battery called an accumulator, accumulator or battery rather than a cell, doesn't actually make it, it stores it. Right. Right, so you make it with your dynamo or your alternator Yeah. and you sort of fill up the battery, and then you can draw it off, but the battery itself isn't making electricity it's just storing cells, like the little cells in that, the cells you get in your normal little batteries, and when they've finished making it you chuck 'em away. They get to the stage where they've clogged themselves up with the the by-products, so part of making a battery is trying to design it so it doesn't clog itself up. So you don't finish up with a battery that as soon as you've used it for about a minute, that's it can't get any more Mm. voltage out of it. Erm yeah How how is running water used for making electricity? Running water? You said earlier running water might be one of the ways of the alternative methods of making electricity. Erm you could use tidal or wave power but say it's coming downhill when it rains, the Mm. clouds go up a mountain it rains Yeah. it gets to the top. Rain coming down, usually come down in a stream so you have some kind of erm mill What an ord water mill . Right. And that turns your dynamo generator whatever you want, Okay, right,the old water mill used to turn the stones in the wil mill really you could turn a generator. Erm what do they normally have at the big hydroelectric works? Erm Is it just a little stream running along or what? No it's usually a water wall. Yeah, quite a high one so they have a big dam to give a good head water, a good height of water, and that water comes Drops down through quite a quite a height, and then they have a turbine sort of force it into a turbine with a turbine and it really spins that turbine th that's joined top the alternator and makes the electricity. Okay? What's a catalyst? Er it speeds up a reaction, it isn't used in the reaction, it just speeds it up. What do you mean by It isn't used in the reaction? Erm it doesn't it's not necessarily needed for the reaction, it the reaction will still happen without it. The reaction could happen slowly without it generally Yeah. but it's a it makes the reaction a whole lot faster . It's not used in great quantities in the reaction. Right it's usually only a small quantity needed, because although it is it's used it's continually sort of restored. So it's Yeah. Erm I mean some people say, quite wrongly, that it's something that doesn't take any part in the reaction but speeds it up, but how can it do that. It does take a part in the reaction but it keeps getting returned back to its original state. Yeah. Can you think of any catalysts? Er is it potassium permanganate? What Pla a duck billed Pardon? A duck billed Platypus. And it's not platypus it's sounds like a type of pen. Platinum. Right, platinum. Platinum is quite a common one in industrial processors,the other things are used Right, er Right, it's how long it takes for a whole substance to react, so it can't Say you put two Put it in your own words. Say you put two chemicals together. Right, okay. It's how long it takes for those to react together until they've stopped reacting. Right, okay so if we put this one If we put hydrochloric acid and caustic soda together, they'd start reacting and after a while it would all be finished. Yeah. Yeah. This p this type of reaction goes pretty quickly. Erm what do you think affects the rate at which the reaction goes? Er What do you think affects the reaction Er the amounts of Okay. It's the concentrations of the reactants. Heat. And heat is the big thing. How does heat affect the rate at which the reaction goes? Usually the hotter it is, the faster the reaction. Right,well nothing's happened here, let's just stick a bunsen under it, warm it up a bit, get it moving. Mm. Yeah, so that's a graph there and this is the sort of graph that you're sometimes ask asked to draw to get it going, okay? Yeah. really black isn't it ? Gonna chuck it down any minute It is, it is. Well it doesn't go dark till twenty to eight. I know, it's going to go It's gonna be a good out there. What's a reversible reaction? Erm it's a reaction, say you put two chemicals together. Mm. they're not stuck together you can separate them again, it's The reaction can go both ways. Right the reaction goes both ways. A lot of chemical reactions are actually reversible, but the tend to be mainly going very much in one direction, so we just say we just write it as though it only went in one direction. And what things could affect which direction it goes in? Er heat again, Yeah. er oxygen available to them Yeah, if it's Er one that uses oxygen, that would affect it. Erm What state And they were in to start with. Whether they were together to start with or whether they were separate. Okay and the other thing that you said for the the first question to what affects what affects he rate of reaction normally in a normal reaction.? Er What's the other thing Quantity. So the concentrations can affect it. As Let's say you've got a reaction which is producing erm oxygen. As they oxygen concentration that's being produced, gets very high it slows it down, it slows it and it stops. Now if we can take away tat excess oxygen that's being produced, it'll start going again. If we put more oxygen in, it might start going back the other way. So by controlling the concentration of the reagents that will affect which way it goes and a lot of them are temperature sensitive, we heat it up it goes one way, cool it down it goes the other. So this On on these general points like this you could pick up quite a few marks, but a lot of the questions are not that technical erm and they're stuff that you do know. Erm like the answers you're giving now, these are all Yeah. good for picking up the marks. Now, I think you know quite about the atmosphere, don't you? Yeah. Erm what causes the What's the greenhouse effect and what causes it? It's the build up of carbon dioxide er in the atmosphere. Right why is it called a And greenhouse effect? The light comes in from the sun, heat. Right, yeah. And it here's the rain. And it bounces it comes in through the atmosphere, through all the gasses, they can't leave again, as it usually can. Well part of it can leave again, but as it is more is getting trapped inside so it's getting hotter Good. and the heat can't leave. Right so more more heat stays in than escapes back out of it. It's blocking, it's acting like a a bit of a duvet if you like. Mm. Erm in the same way as th the glass in a greenhouse works, that it let's the radiant heat in but then it doesn't let so much out, so the heat builds up. And what's the effect of this? Of the Erm Isn't this a good idea because we'll all be nice and warm now? No because the polar ice caps will melt, sea levels Okay. will rise. Erm the hot places already, like deserts and mid Africa, places on the equator will get too hot, things will die. Right. Etcetera etcetera. And because the sea levels rise a lot of places could get flooded Mm. Basically So less place to live Right. because anywhere that is, it'll be too hot in places so people go to cooler places and cool places will be getting covered in water. Good, okay, yeah, great. Erm also there could be th will cause other climatic changes so that people who don't normally get rain will get gallons and gallons of it. People who you think It's all melting, there'll be more wet about but there could well be more deserts and So there's quite a lot going on there. What sort of pollutants do cars produce? Lot's er carbon dioxide, er is one. Right. There's when the used leaded petrol, lead. Right. And so on, er Yeah. What hap Carbon monoxide. Good, carbon monoxide,s when when carbon is burnt from any of the fuels, petrol and sort of the hydrocarbons, burn them very efficiently and very completely you get carbon dioxide which isn't I mean it's not brilliant but it's not toxic. Carbon monoxide is lethal. I actually, I got a car magazine today er and Saab have actually built a car, and you know they've got catalytic converters now? Yeah. It drives around and the air that comes out of its exhaust is actually cleaner than when it comes in . Is Great! It's actually it's brilliant and they put it into production. Because So, they reckon if you clean the air as you go Yeah I mean it's They reckon if everyone drove round this it up. So that's what what what else is it doing, this this new car, then, what else is it cleaning up? What Er what about these other things that are in the air, does it clean clean them up as well? Erm I mean th it's Presumably it must be putting out unburned hydrocarbons. Yeah. When you've got an engine, erm, you Let's say we've got an engine with a fixed amount of petrol going in all the time. Now you've got to balance the air supply Yeah. so that It burns the maximum Just as just all that oxygen is used up just to burn it, erm But if you don't give it enough air what will happen? Erm it'll die. it'll it won't fire properly. Mm okay so let's say we've got it just running on a very weak mixture, erm Erm and there's not much there's not much fuel at all, but there is a lot of air going in, would you expect it all to be burned? Mm, we c could get most of a No lean burn we could get close Yeah. to most of it and we wouldn't be producing too much unburnt fuel coming out of the back, you know Mm. when you start a car on choke, pooh you can smell Yeah. the petrol being pumped out of the back, that Yeah. hasn't been burnt. Okay, and you'd be getting carbon monoxide out cos you're not erm okay, various things like that. Now Yeah. what's That that's As you say it'll The engine's not gonna have any power No. when there's hardly any petrol, and it's very. So if you stick your foot down hard on the accelerator, you squirt a load of petrol in Yeah. and the air can't cope with that, can't burn it all up, so what happens then? When you've Erm got a rich mixture. It'll The When there's not enough air and there's too much petrol Yeah. Erm only part of it will burn and it'll go out through the exhaust, the Okay. rest of the petrol. So you've got unburnt fuel going out erm Much more flammable though. And what what else have we got going out? Cos we hadn't got enough enough air to burn all the carbon in these hydrocarbons. So there'll be carbon, carbon monoxide. There'll be carbon monoxide coming out and there might even, as you say, be carbon, with lumps of soot. Yeah. Erm as well as that we get a little bit of sulphur dioxide and we get oxides of nitrogen, which are pretty nasty, those are the one's they et around Los Angeles, and the big smoggy cities. Erm Nitric and nitrous oxide. Erm and the oxide of nitrogen. You remember when we were talking about making sulphuric acid, remember how we made it? Yeah. how do we make it? Er sulphur, hydrogen, oxygen er Okay so we burnt the sulphur, made sulphur dioxide Yeah. Erm burned that again to get sulphur trioxide and then effectively Mm. squirted water on it. Mm. And so sulphur trioxide add water makes sul sulphuric acid . Sulphuric acid. Well we've got sulphur dioxide coming out here and the water will make sulphurous acid, which is again pretty nasty and we've got oxides of nitrogen coming out with the water, they make nitrous and nitric acids, Yeah. so you can see why it's pretty nasty Yeah. er if it's a city with lots of cars running Yeah. Okay, what happens to metals? Erm Why do why does iron rust, for example? Er it reacts with water and air. Okay, good. With water and air, yeah that's the big point. Erm okay? Look at that one. Tin plating, why does that stop iron from rusting? Erm tin doesn't rust and it protects it from the air and water, you get 'em Stops the air and water getting to it so it can't rust, and then I mean this is pretty straight forward, if the tin surface is then scratched it will rust, why? because it can get into contact with the Right, and why doesn't this happen with zinc plating, galvanizing? Erm it doesn't come off so easily, Doesn't come off so easily and it sort goes into it a bit, Yeah. a little bit down into the . Suggest alternative materials because iron rust alterial alternative materials for a household bath,what could you make it of instead of iron? Erm,doesn't rust, steel. Possibly. I'm sure that steel rusts. Yeah, erm They do make 'em out of this Yeah. alternative substance. Aluminium? No Be very it would be a very expensive cos it's an expensive Yeah. thing aluminium. Be a g I mean it would be a nice bath, it would be light and very strong. Erm Mm. What about a Coca-Cola can? That's aluminium. Right aluminium, yeah. Yeah,er I'm trying think steel or aluminium, plastic. Yep. Okay I was thinking this is the this is it's so easy,you think what's an alternative to steel, oh it must be a metal, how could I make a bath out of copper or what could it be. Yeah, I was thinking And it's it's obvious once you've thought about it Yeah. plastic an you know acrylic baths, things like that. Oh now we get on to the really difficult stuff. The most abundant gas in the air is? Nitrogen. Okay. Liquid air secarate separated into its components by Er How do they separate it? Liquid air, freezing it, cooling it Now, liquid air. Oh. If the air is liquid, what temperature is it going to be at? Er don't know, erm er What sort of temperature is liquid nitrogen at? Low Low. Liquid oxygen? Er low. Low, right. So liquid air Is separated. is low low temperature. How do you separate it? How do you separate the oxygen ad the nitrogen out of liquid air? Er, burn something in it. No You could do okay you could do that and then you would have used up all the oxygen and you'd just have nitrogen left, but burning something in a liquid in liquid air is gonna be a bit awkward, it couldn't be done. Erm what will happen if you let the liquid air warm up a little bit? Er one of them would melt. Right one of them will not melt but? S er evaporate. Right, boil off I's very low It's boiling but it is at low temperature when it's boiling. You let the temperature come up until it reaches the boiling point Yeah. of the first one to boil and boil all that off and then you're left with the other one. So it's quite a s a simple process, the idea of it is a simple idea. Erm The something or other is the process by which green plants synthesize carbohydrates from carbon dioxide and water using sunlight as a source of energy and chlorophyll as a catalyst. Something is the process by which gr Oh photosynthesis. Good, yeah, great. A pollutant in the air which leads to the production of acid rain is Ooh Carbon dioxide isn't it? NO. Carbon dioxide does give a very slightly acidic Er rain but it's that's not really It's sulphur dioxide. Good Sulphur dioxide, yeah we get sulphurous acids and sulphuric acids . Incomplete combustion of diesel fuel produces a poisonous gas called? Diesel fuel? Well that's a tricky one. Erm think of it as petrol. the incomplete combustion of petrol, produces a poisonous gas called ? called carbon monoxide. Right, and it's the same for diesel. Right. It's just that they've probably got so tired of putting petrol in each year Mm. we'll fool them we'll put we'll say diesel Diesel this year. Yeah, it's a hydrocarbon. It's got lots, it's got hydrogen and it's got lots of carbons in and these carbons when they don't burn completely, when they only sort of partly burn, they form carbon monoxide instead of dioxide. Okay Ooh. Now you know, you're pretty well up on water supplies, where it comes from, what it does? Yeah. Erm You You know the formula Erm do you know the test for water? The test? Mm. No, you may not have come across it. You get white an Er white anhydrous copper sulphate. Oh yeah, it turns blue. I I knew that it turned blue but I didn't know that was the test. Yeah. It turns blue and that's that's a good test for water. Erm essential for life, we're about two thirds water, it ll depends depending on which book you read how much of us is water, but erm Don't forget that it's an incredible solvent, water . Yeah. Lot's and lot's of things will dissolve in water. You tend to think oh so many things don't dissolve in water but think of the other ways round. So many things Salt all the salts. Mm. I mean what do washing each day if you want to if you want to clean the walls, want to do Mhm. bit of cloth in water . All the soaps in your kitchen all the soaps in your bathroom. They're all stuff which dissolves in water. Yeah. And if you get It's only when you get oily greasy stains that you think, oh I'd better some ethanol or Mm. a bit of petrol or something to try and get this off. So you pretty well up on water. Water as a solvent, you know all about that. Rain coming down, rain down to the sea, evaporating off again. Erm now okay. What will happen there, if you've got a shallow pool and a couple of deep pools and the sun is shining on it? That one will evaporate sooner. Right. I wonder about the wa What about the water temperature? Erm, it will be hotter. Right, so a Er little shallow pool down by the seaside will be warmer . Yeah, it'll be warmer near the top in these as well. Mm. Erm Er M yeah it will be it will be warmer. They Those would evaporate at the same rates, although that one would be gone sooner because there's less off it. Yep. All looks good. Chlorine is a poisonous gas. So why do they put it in household water? Er, it kills off It's Yep cos it's poisonous it kills off sort of virtually all life Yeah. and what they hope is that most it has sort of been has disappeared by the time it gets to us Mm. so it doesn't kill us off. but you can still Sometimes you can smell it can't you? Taste it in your water. Oh, yeah it's really bad in our water, Yeah. it Sometimes it really especially if stinks of bleach. Yeah. With the fluoride and the chlorine. If they've been changing the pipes or digging them up or something they often flush it through with a load of chlorine,the water of or b Boil it erm As water get's hotter, and something like sugar, would you get would you find, Let's say you get a cup of cold water and you try and dissolve as much sugar as you can in it, and then you try hot water, try disolv Dissolve more in the hot water. Okay. What about gases. Do they, would you get more gas dissolved in hot or in cold water? More in cold wouldn't you? Yeah, as you as you heat up the water the gases boil out of it, so if wanted to get rid of the chlorine in your water, boiling it gets rid of quite a lot, it forces the chlorine t to boil out. Ooh, skip that Acids bases and slats. Erm I know you've probably had more than enough of that, but keep keep having a little look Yeah. at those, because you've I mean you've done so much work on the, you're doing so well with them it would be a shame to just let it sort of slip out of your mind. yeah. Erm you find that more and more constant repetition, each time you go back to it, there's less that you've forgotten, less that seems new and more that seems obvious and you'll be saying to yourself, sort of m You know of course Yeah I don't need to read this, tat's obvious that's obvious. Whereas a few months ago it wasn't tat obvious. Because nothing is obvious until you Mm. until you've learnt it. Metals, can you think of any metals? Erm any metals that what? Erm Just any metals. Erm, oh iron, aluminium, brass, copper, steel, erm magnesium, sodium, potassium, calcium Great Right. Lithium, er One mentioned earlier, as a catalyst. Er potassium permanganate No No. no, platinum, gold, silver, Right, okay. Lots of them. Erm some properties of metals that most of the metals, nearly all the metals have? Conduct electricity. Right, and if they conduct electricity they also conduct? What else can they Erm Heat. Right Heat. Okay. I was thinking of something like electricity, I'm saying have I missed something Right. Erm they conduct heat and they conduct electricity. Yeah. A one foot copper pipe and a one foot sort of piece of fairly thick wooden dowel, and I'm going to stick a blow torch on the end of each one, which one would you The dowel please. Yeah, yeah. So th the copper will conduct very quickly, it'll soon get hot and the wooden one will be a good insulator. Erm metal oxides, metal the oxides, differences see, this is the thing they're all sort of quite keen on, so some of the important metals here. iron, very important, you know you can't there's can't be a house in the country that you go into and not find something made of iron. Yeah. Erm cars, okay they're made of steel but the steel is made from the iron. Aluminium, pretty important, also a very good conductor of electricity. Erm which is metal is sort of one of the best conductors of electricity? Er copper. Yeah copper's a very good one. Silver and gold are excellent conductors but they're a bit expensive so I you know when How about platinum? Yes. Is that even better? erm is it better? Alright. I don't know actually, I don't know. I'd imagine it is Yeah. So you've got me there on that one. Mm. Erm Now differences between metals and non metals. What would you say the differences Between metals and non metals. Er non metals don't conduct electricity er And don't conduct Heat. Heat as well Er yeah, so you can use them for insulators, electrical insulators or heat insulators, right. Er metals erm, they're always in solid or liquid form, metals never a gas . generally, okay apart from mercury they're they're Yeah. generally A solid. a solid, and erm What other things can you do with metals, thinking if their physical properties. Erm they're strong Yeah, they're strong erm Erm they r they react quite often with water and air. Yeah. With water. Yes and or air, yeah . Yeah. Erm What else about Concentrating on their physical properties. Erm What could you do with lump of copper. There's a big s slab of copper. Melt it down. You good melt it, mould it, make shapes out of it. What else could you do with it? Erm Think perhaps of a piece of lea, what could you do with that ? It's heavy it protects against radiation Mhm. erm Yeah. There's lots of things you can do with it. Okay, so erm what would you make wire out of? Copper Yeah. How do make wire out of metal? Er You get your lump of metal and you stretch it you sort of pull it through a die, through a tiny hole and you just st stretch it. Big big thick rod and you pull a little bit of it through a tiny hole and you stretch it out, and you keep stretching it and you keep stretching it, it doesn't Aha. snap. So it's it's ductile. Yeah. erm and it's malleable, you can hammer it, you can hammer it into shapes and panel beat it a car or bits of lead you could dress it, you can tap it with a . Mend your roof, things like that. So metals Mhm. are usually erm they're pretty workable, they're malleable and ductile and erm the non metals usually can't do things like that . Here's your reservoir going down to town, there's a a big drop there they'd normally put it through the turbine and pick up some free electricity Mm. Select from the list above the metal that reacts violently with cold water. Erm sodium. Okay. The metal used to make hot water pipes. Copper. The metal that forms a protective oxide coat when exposed to air and is used in the manufacture of window frames. Aluminium. Right. Er the metal that forms two different chlorides solution react with sodium hydroxide solution to give precipitates, one coloured reddish brown the other green. Erm Iron. So you can work Yeah. that one out by what Yeah. what have we got left. Erm in a limestone are, the reason Now, you know about harness of water? Temporary hardness. Temporary and permanent hardness. Right Now your limestone are Calcium chloride, isn't it? Well erm What does hard water do? Erm it doesn't so You can't make soap in it. Er Okay when when you use soap you get a load of scum with precipitates, what happens in your water tanks and water pipes in a hard water area ? Er you get calc erm you get like hard calcium. Right, you get deposits of calcium something. Yeah. It's Your pipes get clogged up and the bore down the middle gets thinner and thinner so the water sort of hardly trickles through. So this is something which is insoluble. Yeah. Something which seems to be soluble at some stage and the water gets hot and it's not soluble, so we're looking for things here that are not not soluble. It might be worth having a look at that cos there's near There's very often a question on hardness of water. Erm be a good thing for you t Cos you you're really good on all the rest of the Yeah. water and what it does, it might be nice to just look at that to finish it off, so that if Yeah. get a question on water, which is very common, you get sort of you get the full marks to it. So hard water doesn't readily form a lather with soap, right? Yeah. Erm this this twelve point six the main reason for temporary hardness is that okay. Twelve point just says B, sorry. The calcium hydrogen carbonate or calcium bicarbonate, if you like Yeah. Now, what do you think calcium hydrogen carbonate looks like? It's got calcium, hydrogen and carbon So it's got in it. calcium, hydrogen and carbonate. C A H C O three, something like that. We're not bothered about the valencies and whether it'll be two C As with one C O three or two C O threes with one C A or how the e But it'll be something like that. It's okay in cold water, but when you heat it up it breaks down into the carbonate, C A C O three. And the bicarbonate is soluble, but the carbonate, calcium carbonate is just chalk. Yeah. And it's not soluble, so as soon as the water heats up, it comes out. So you get this in your hot water cylinder, we can get it in boilers, erm you get it in hot water pipes and it happens a lot in in hard water areas,Scale will dissolve in the acid in the bubbles of Twelve point seven. Ah here we are. This kettle, is covered with scale, now look, see Twelve point six is asking you which one of these is causing the problem? Right? Now , Mm. twelve point seven, because it's in hard water, it's covered with scale, calcium carbonate. So maybe you could sort of go back and think which one of these would possibly give me calcium carbonate, well that Good chance it might you know have a guess, that this one Yeah. the calcium hydrogen carbonate was the one that . carbonates in it? right okay. So often you can get it through some related questions and just go back Yeah. through it all. Have a have a guess, you know. What is hard water? Okay you've you've answered that one. Dilute hydrochloric acid is put in your kettle to remove the scale. How did it What wou what would happen when you poured it in? Erm You've got calcium carbonate and you pour an acid on it . React with it and it bubble Heat up. It would heat up, yes and it would bubble up. And see any fizzing, any effervescence? Yeah. What gas would be coming off?carbonate. Hydrogen carbonate . Er what's on the inside of the kettle? Calcium carbonate, so you've got acid Chlorine. Acid plus carbonate. Yeah. Erm you'd be getting the chlorine off, getting hydrogen, actually What what what happens when you put Remember when we we looked at, acid and alkali, Yeah. acid and base, Yeah. and we also looked at acid and carbonate. Erm And that was the odd one. It gives an extra thing that bubbles off, and what comes out of Er it's a ga It's a gas that comes out of a carbonate. Carbon dioxide. That's it, okay? Mm. Right? Mm. Okay so we get the carbon dioxide given off and name two products . Yet another for that. Explain why dilute hydrochloric acid not be remove used to remove the scale from aluminium kettles. Erm it will react with the aluminium, eat away at the aluminium. Right it erm al aluminium is a very reactive element. Although we use it cos it doesn't rust, it does. It rusts so quickly and so sort of firmly it forms a very thin film of aluminium oxide on the surface . It takes something like ten or five or ten seconds when you made it. It's bonded on tight to the surface and it stops any more air getting and oxidizing the rest of the aluminium, so we take that off with the acid and let the acid react with the aluminium nice hole in it When we use it in school , in When you've scrapped some off the layer you can't touch otherwise your fingerprints will be all over it. Right. Until it's oxidized. Yeah, yeah. Okay that's good. Erm bit of chrome plating. Ho Any idea how you would chrome plate car bumper? No. I've always wanted how would you how would you copper plate things. Erm electrolysis, Same thing for chrome. Yeah. And when they silver plate things what they tend to do I mean first th the thing When you plate something erm it follows the shape. So if you've got something rough, and you plate it, erm you get a rough finish. If you want a nice shiny smooth finish you polish Polish. the thing you're going to plate first. And what they used to do is they say coat it with silver, they might coat it with copper first. So get it smooth, coat it with copper, polish that up a bit so it's really nice and shiny and put a fine coating of silver over it Yeah. and you're saving a bit on the expense. Same with gold plating and stuff like that. Quite often you use gold leaf though don't they? And Yeah. gold plating. Yes. Er don't know which is more expensive, actually. Carbonates. Why why is carbon important? Why why do you think we might be interested in carbon? Erm it's around it comes out of a lot of things. erm car exhausts etcetera, when you burn things. Yeah. What's the difference One good reason why we would be interested in it. What's the difference th One of the big difference between organic and inorganic chemistry? The chemistry of sort of life, organic chemistry how things grow and how we work. Yeah, er carbon's in both of them. Mm. A lot of We get the complicated carbon compounds in erm all the natural processes. So we gonna look at it in simple form first, things like carbon dioxide and carbon monoxide and carbonates and then build up erm I think, no. Pardon me. Erm why is carbon dioxide useful in a fire extinguisher? Carbon dioxide? Mm. Erm it smothers the flames they can't get oxygen if there's carbon dioxide around. Yep. Chokes it. Right, how about some more some more did wh wh what's graphite? And what's diamond? They're all compounds They're crushed together. They're forms of carbon. Oh right, yeah. Okay. Allotropes of carbon. Erm a carbonate plus an acid gives? Erm an acid. Carbonate plus an acid? Right, like we poured stuff Salt and water. Gives a salt and a water and carbon dioxide. Right, okay, and it gives you sort of three boxes to put things in there, okay? Great. So you get your full marks from that. Few more things Mm Nitrogen okay it's fairly important because of production of ammonia and nitric acid and basis for the chemi chemical industry. Here's the n here's the nitrogen cycle which I thing you're pretty good at, okay on that Mm. aren't you? Tell me tell me some of the bits in the nitrogen cycle then, go on. What bits? The lot Lots of bits. The lot tell me he lot . I c I don't I don't think I can tell you the lot it's Tell me some bits then and work out Could you draw a picture of Mm no! I don't think I know it that well . It's go It's a good, you know Er it's a fairly common question. I know erm The nitrogen cycle. Have a have a have a go at some of them. I don't know where to start, hang on just need to Well okay, where where're you going to start. Can't you just ask me about it? It's Well it This is more like what an I don't I don't really know it well enough to tell you what a nitrogen cycle . Erm where does it come from, where does it go to, who gives it out, who takes it in? Things like that. Erm Can't even remember what it is now. Okay have have look at the nitrogen cycle, Yeah. sort of read through a bit about it and then when you've read it, put the book away and leave it for half an hour or an hour or something and then try and draw a rough outline of some of the main points. Some of them some of them give a lot of details, I mean this gives a lot of detail there. You may not need as much as that, but erm Bacteria, nitrates in the soil and the plants taking up the nitrates some of the plants. Do you know any plants that put nitrogen back into the soil? No. No, erm plants people tend to grow peas and beans and things cos they form little nodules round their roots, and they're putting nitrogen They store nitrogen in that and they sort of When they've finished they put nitrogen back into the soil. Right oxygen and sulphur. Ooh got through got through nearly the whole syllabus there in in one lesson. Mm. The halogens, do you know what they are? Er, gases erm Okay good. Erm Argons ring a bell No, nitrogen. Chlorine? Yeah. Chlorine, bromine, iodine Yeah. are the three main ones. That one,that's gonna be Yeah. or just about it. What's happening in a blast furnace? Erm draw your picture, work out what happens. What you put in what you get out. Why do they need coke? What's what's the pur What does the coke do, to the iron? Heat. It's carbon, it's not being used as a fuel it's just being chucked in, to do something with the with the iron ore and why does it put limestone in it? So something to look at there. test Bar chart. Can you read a bar chart? Yeah oh no. Yes you can. Okay read that one then, as you say As you claim you can't read it. Oh right. That one is seventy Mhm. million tonnes. that one is seventy two million Good , tonnes. right. In nineteen eighty three, the yearly consumption was found to be seventy six million tonnes, so where would you mark that? So that one will be s that'll be seventy four, so in nineteen nineteen eighty three, mark it on the chart. seventy Don't actually mark it on that but Yeah I won't. you can Right so. I mean that's Yeah. It's isn't it? Yeah. Right. Ooh. My maths papers are the worst for that. Yeah. Alright, well the They give you the answer for those of you who couldn't do it. Yeah. Okay, organic chemistry. Now we did have a little bit of that, I would say er leave it leave it till you've got the other stuff pretty well sorted out . Yeah. Erm pie chart. Can you read a pie chart? How much how much is used for making and polyethylene and things? I mean so even something's like this on the organic, you might not have a clue what polyethylene is or polypropylene or anything else, but you can read the pie chart and work out what what's going on. So you could still pick up some What's the last hurdle? I'm interested in this, what does it say? Of test questions Er yeah, these are these are tricky, where they give you something like They give you a melting point and a boiling point whether it conducts electricity and a gas is given off which turns limewater milky. Carbon dioxide. Right, so if it gives of If you heat it in er and it gives of carbon dioxide, have a guess at what it is that we're heating? Erm hydrochloric acid. acid, er no W w we're not putting an acid with it Yeah. we're just heating this thing, so Er what's it got to contain if it Carbon and oxygen. So what compounds do you know that have carbon and oxygen in it. Er The ones that gave of carbon dioxide when we put an acid to them. Er calcium er erm Oh hydrogen carbonate. Okay, calcium carbonate, yes. Yeah. So the carbonates, any of the carbonates, heat them you get a good chance of getting the carbon dioxide given off. Okay. So even these more awkward ones you can still you can still have a good guess at them, just from what you know. Nothing else. What about this one? Erm acid in rain coming in again. From the chemicals listed below, which one produces acid rain? Carbon, carbon monoxide, chlorine, hydrogen, plus sulphur dioxide. . Iron is obtained using a blast furnace. The raw materials that go in at the top are iron ore, limestone and What else goes in there? . Okay. Limestone and coke. Right, coke. Although it might be a temptation to say hot air, because you do put hot air in, but it says goes in at the top of the furnace. Yeah. So, watch out for that one, again people might think lime or something, get it confused with limestone, so it's really a bit tricky that. Coke. Right, do you happen to know the erm three main ingredients of gunpowder? Er sulphur, charcoal and saltpetre which is Very good. erm, what is it? They use it in fertilizers as well Mhm. but can't remember its proper name. Erm, what is it? Can't remember. Tell you what salt peter is. Mhm. Salt peter is sodium nitrite. Yeah. And er nitrate, mm, a chile saltpetre. I it's it's very similar in properties to saltpetre, and it comes from Chile. And we used to get it from Chile. And it's potassium instead of sodium. Yeah. Erm, yeah, very good. Gunpowder is not used in rifles because it produces smoke an leaves a residue in the barrel. Yeah. So there's the er equation. What happens when it burns or explodes, so the okay, the potassium nitrate and the carbon and the sulphur burn and they give quite a bit of er C O two. they also th These other things can all burn as well and you can get erm sulphur dioxide and you can get, as well as nitrogen you can get oxides of nitrogen. And you get a lot you get a lot of gas formed, which is why you get the big explosion. It's formed very quickly. And there's a slightly more complicated one, what happens when nitroglycerine explodes. But the big thing is, okay, you get a lot of water lot of water which is going to come out as steam. Mm. A lot of nitrogen as a gas, I mean ten H two O as a gas. So you're gonna need air Bang. N Yeah. You're gonna air t You need how much? We we don't actually We've got It's got nine oxygen in it already, right so this one doesn't actually need any air. We're not putting any oxygen in the ox It's got nine oxygens tied up with that already to make all these other things from, so we've got a lot of volume of gases there. Mhm. Six N twos, an O two and ten H two Os. Yeah. Bang! Erm this this one Did I tell you what's on my desk downsta , I told you didn't I? I didn't take did I? What's on my desk downstairs right at this moment? You'll like this! Is that sealed? I bet you're right. What is on my desk at this moment? Two Abel Barder's books. Oh yeah. Isn't that sad? Isn't that sad? And I'm actually admitting publicly that there are two Abel Barder's books on my desk downstairs! And I had a . And you think it's sad? I'm a bit worried you! You've gone over all quiet! I don't think . Just not sure of . I thought of Christine . making it ! Oh, I meant to bring that with me! Which has a complication. And . We'll do the questions and answers today children! Right! Stuart ! Mister! You're very quiet there Stuart! Chris Yeah! as long as your enthusiastic about being here! That's why I like ! Actually that might spring better. Tracey . Oh! Yeah. Get it right! Ann . Yeah. Hello! Good! Daniel! Yeah. Yeah. Congratulations! Sooner or later! Jonathan! Yeah. He's scra you sa , you said that without moving your lips! That was brilliant! I know,. And Jason. Yep. And Matthew. Matthew without a voice! Kenton and Joe! Yeah! And Steven . On holiday. I'll fool them, I'll lock that door! Oh! He always comes in that way doesn't he? Ha!! Right people! Two things to do with you today mainly one is to whip through at least part of the isomers work and, I say part of it because you'll be coming back to other parts of it a bit later on when you've, for example,we'll coming back to erm,isomers work. And at various stages during the organic you'll also be coming to what we call optical isomers. What I need to do is to go through them with you and make sure you fully understand what they what their origins are etcetera because isomers we base the questions are very very common so I'll be able to talk about marks. And what do marks make? Prizes. Prizes, yes a prize of that little envelope says whoopee you have passed! It doesn't actually say that, it just gives a but if you say whoopee I have passed. Not me, cos I've already passed, but you. Yes. Are you gonna do passing? Right, I want to go through isomerism and then go straight onto the erm e , go strai glad you made , a bit late but er I thought it was ? Sorry. You think it might be? Actually, actually it's a good one! Michael, now that is a superstar! Mm. Mm mm. Er some of you won't understand that. Are you a superstar? I don't think so but . He's fa , he's famous! Fame , he's on the poster! Quite genuine! You are serious? Absolutely ge , Stuart is that true? That, Stuart never lies! He's going to Cambridge so never lies! Is that true? No. Sorry! Right, so, let's go over isomers and then start on the hydro-carbons in some detail and pi the first mechanism, we're talking about mechanisms general as well. As far as mechanistic is concerned you haven't got to do an awful lot. There are only about six mechanisms you actually need to know. One of those you've already met in detail in terms of kinetics as that was the idea of reaction wasn't it Chris? Yep. Yep! The other one also came up in kinetics and that's this business of nucleus nuclear filmic substitution. That's . Yeah. Sorry? . That side you get the filleca take that's right,Yes ! More. sume, assume. Erm alright, it's alright Chris it's alright! It's all beyond you Chris, I know! It would be easier, be easier It's all beyond me at the moment as well! Right, so, if I just start on isomers across the board. Now, you must remember, in the link sheet make sure you back up whatever you're getting here. Make sure you back it up with the exercises. And, of course, you do have to log it, one of those various exercises and so on . If you don't log it I'll assume you haven't and can I point out to you there's parent's evening coming up very soon, thank you very much! And I'll have a chance yet again, to talk to your mummies and daddies before yo you actually take your final exams. What happens if you kill your mummy and daddy? Pardon? What if you kill your mummy and daddy? If you kill your mummy and daddy I'll have to talk to you Peter! You better resuscitate them . It's far better to erm keep your mummies and daddies live or at least, you know, do a psycho job! With the stuff that we ! Ma already ! ! Right children! First of all Tracey you can have the first opportunity to show how little you know. Sorry,this,it on here. Sorry . Right yo Oh no, mustn't ! How your knowledge is in millimetres, no I mustn't use millimetres! Makes up the usual thing ! She's had a lot to drink! She's had a lot of off me today. That's, ah, she's she's took it well! She's not talking to me mind, but she's took it well! Right if I put the word Shit! Erm thank you! The word . By the word I describe what does that suggest to you Trace? Er speak nicely cos Because you're being recorded! It's a like er using the same components but put together in a different way. Like different No! different ways of putting it's hard to explain.. It's this Karma Sutra that is! But no that was a good try Tracey! That's a good try! Emma. Let's get the other half of the female vote. Don't suck your thumb dear! It's so ! Erm What's an isomer? It's something about Haven't got a clue! No this is quite serious now! No I don't really know. Erm Choose somebody Emma. Daniel. Oh shit! Danny , I was right. Your turn Daniel, what's an isomer? It's it's got the same nuclear format. Right, first of all they're compounds make sure you take these down please. Compounds with the same molecular formula. And obviously therefore, cos they obviously therefore, they've got the same improvements on here as well. They're the same molecular formula but now what's the but, Chris? Daniel's done the hard bit for you what's the but? You've got imperfect ones that doesn't match erm I just said they had the same molecular formula Oh right. Christopher! Er The same molecular formula but let's put a word in for you. Different Structures. Er yeah, okay. Let's, let's say different structural formulae. In other words, the atoms are actually arranged in a different way. They're bonded together in different ways. Now, there's two main classes of isomerism and don't just exclude er, or don't just include organic isomers cos we ge get organic isomers as well. You get occurring in yo , in your organic . Especially actually. And you'll meet some of them when we actually do that area. But generally there are two main classes of isomerism that we deal with and very much like, like the classification on hydro-carbons that I did, there's a whole variety of ways they can be classified that you've seen. This is just one model. Yeah. This seems to work well most seem to fit into it nicely. First of all, we have what we call structural isomers, a whole group of structural isomers. And then we have a group of two which are described as stereo isomers. Now, the thing about those two words what do you think, stereo isomers is all about, without actually saying a specific type of isomer? What does it tend to suggest? What is it . Nope! Two forms at once. More than one form of isomer. Well that's for the isomers anyway isn't it? Yeah. I know what you're saying. You're getting close cos you're concentrat , or you should be concentrating on the wo , on the part of the word, stereo. Oh! . Simultaneously. No, not really. It's all about space. If I stereo isomers have a similarity in that they exist because of spatial aspects. And you'll come to understand exactly what I mean by that it's all about three dimensional space. Where structural isomers are literally what the word suggests they have different structures different ways of linking the atoms together. .But the stereo isomers are all about three dimensional space, that's how they tend to differ as you'll see. Let's start the structural isomers, and we can use this as an opportunity to look at some aspects of the . Now, you should all still be working through the on a continuous basis. I am aware that, I am aware of actually two people in the second year who have never used it so far. Now, those two people or others who haven't used it much you really must get into this disc! It's the easy way to learn or it's easy, it's easy way to understand and then learn the megiture. You have to have a stu , a good familiarity with organic momegiture if you don't, you could be throwing marks away even before you get in that exam room! Cos there will be aspects where you will have to use momegiture. That they ask you specific questions of that naming it's a multi-choice more importantly in your written answers you will have to in , you are expected to include and correct systematic ohms for any organics that you deal with. Plus, of course, it means you're gonna go back in that direction so if they say something like erm two chlorapropane active with you need to be able to get structural formula from that name. So you really have got to get to grips with it! They're something you should be using right the way up to the to the actual exams. And, there's at least eight discs available at the present time, and more could be made available. Not for your own use I hasten to add! They've set up, increased the numbers of discs in the library in the workshop er, there's no increasing them up here cos there's, we need to buy a computer, but certainly up and in the workshop and in the library. You must hit it on a regular basis! It's the easiest way to get to grips with it. And those of yo you who've been doing it for some time will now realise how easy it has made the momegiture. You learning without even realising you're learning it. Right, so let's start the structural, now there's a whole range of different types of structural isomers. Position positional isomers branch chain functional group and there's one other odd one which has a very peculiar name and the name it normally goes by is a fairly old name, now I'm not sure at this stage if that name is still used but what I'll do is to describe the form of the isomerism first and let you decide what you would prefer to call it. In fact,i it does suggest one of these other types of these isomerism depends how you view a functional group. But I'll tell you the name that is used, or was used afterwards, but I don't know if that name is still used I certainly haven't seen it in a text book in years! But it is a genuine form of isomers but you may like to include into one of the others. Well that's entirely up to you, but we'll see how we go with that. Right, let's start with position isomerism. Now, position isomerism is all about the position of the groups or the position of functional groups so it's not just necessarily groups on their own it could be functional groups. Now, I've made a distinction between those, in other words a group maybe a methile group now, methile group is not a functional group it's not something that dictates the properties of a compound, necessarily. And the influences that doesn't dictate and a functional group does. Where as a functional group might be, for example, a no age group which does tend to dictate the properties of that compound. So there is a difference between using the word group and functional group. Also now I tend, as you've probably come to realise I've tended to include specific types of bonding arrangements as a functional group for example, I call a carbon carbon double bond, I call that a functional group for the simple reason that that arrangement of bonds dictates the principle properties of those compounds and in that context I'm then using the word group a bit more liberally instead of saying it's a group of atoms which dictate the properties I'll say it's a group of atoms or it's a special grouping of electrons, which dictate the properties. Yeah? And so did yo , can you see the difference between those? So there's all those sorts of possibilities. Now, let's look at some examples and get you to name some of them as well. Positional isomerism is very obvious the only thing you have to watch out for, if the give you structural formulae especially multi-choice papers they're buggers they are when they, when they do this sometimes! They they may draw the same compound but making the same structural formula, but drawn slightly differently! And I tend to draw, most o , most of us tend to draw them as straight lines with branches coming off they may actually show the chain as a twisted chain or zig-zag chain or going in to form a square or something! So, you really do need to understand the megditure in order to be able to say, oh yes, those two compounds are the same! Just been drawn differently. You really have to watch that! So, let's start with position isomers and some examples and try and select examples using these. What I'm gonna to , what I, what I intend to do is just show the skeleton in other words, most times I'll tend to do right? Just a quick and easy way of doing it. Let's take this example here I've got a carbon chain there and I'm going to put a methile group there and I'm going to put a methile group there two, three that . Identical chain again let's have a methile group there and one there let's do one more of those a methile group there and a methile group there. Now, in terms of naming these always you go for the longest straight shape that you can, by straight straight really is in inverted commas what we should really say the longest continuous chain that you can find in other words, you'd have to go back on yourself. Now, if you look at all of these and find the longest chain we you can actually get in that respect is a six chain, isn't it? There's nothing longer than a six. Do watch these examples I'm putting up, by the way cos I muck these up sometimes! I find this a bit tedious to keep doing this, so I tend to you know, slip up sometimes please check what I'm doing. It's called thinking! I've got this I can't that one! Erm let's just take that chain in each case because it's it is a chain and we tend to read better, write horizontally left, right, up a bit, down a bit across, down a bit , up a bit and so on. Let's pick someone completely at random,, now we've had Tracey figuratively speaking! And Emma. So we've done our what we should do, now we're giving the ladies full consideration first with the gentlemen. Haven't we Matthew? Baa ah ah ah! John ! Would you like to name that compound for me there please? I mean that's not that's not a request. As long as you understand that's an instruction! What would you call it? Obviously it's gotta be based on hexane isn't it? Two comma five di-methile hexate. You want two comma five Dash. dash Yeah I was gonna say that! Yeah, you were just testing me to see if I Ah well! get it! Dire methile probate, is that what you want? No I said hexate. Di-methile hectate? X! Dire methile hexate. Er, let's see Daniel silver glinting from his eyelids! dash dire methile We , I haven't asked you the question! Let me ask you the question first! Will you explain why that's correct? If it is correct, do you agree with me? Yeah. Alright. Why is it correct? The two's there cos the mephile groups Mephile, what's mefile? Mefalle! Methile. Well one of them's on the second one, and one's on the fifth one it's cos it's ta , it's . What you should be starting from is the longest chain. Yeah. Longest chain is the sixth chain so it's gonna be based on a hexate. Yeah. There are two methile groups one in position two, one in position five. Does it matter which end you start Kieran? Hello! Kieran? No. Oh no I go sorry that's the answer? Is that, that is your answer? Yeah. Is that your ar , no, you're answer was no? Yeah. It doesn't matter which end you start from cos either way it, it'll still be two, five. Er, Chris you s suddenly become extremely interested in what he's writing! Do his ostrich impression! In other words, if I put my head down low enough he can't see me! No, I'm trying to write my down. Yes Chris. Was is he gonna We'll wait, yes we will wait, that's fine! I'm writing. I'm, I'm going to wait. I think we've waited long enough! Well that's alright we'll come back to Chris. No, it's okay I've done that now. Oh good! You're, you're ready to Well I'll try and do that. oh that's awfully good of Chris, thank you! Erm, what would you call that one Chris? Er You don't need any help Christopher. Okay. This is not a difficult Two one! and then a three dash die Three dash die? Yeah, three dash die methile sounds like a bush! Er Come on look, I'm listening! These are not, but I am! Erm . Oh ha! No, no! No, see I, see I, alright, alright, no! Alright, okay, hold on, I know! What? Erm Jason! Er I'd say four three four comma three no, that'll be Fine, thank you Jason! Jonathan! Three, three die methile hexane. In between Well let's the threes let's get the grammar in as well. Three comma three Yeah, dash die methile dash hexane. die methile hexane. Yeah, you're longest chain is a six so it could of been clearly based on hexane. And the two methile groups so it's gonna be a die methile. It's gonna be a, it's gonna be a die methile hexane of some description now, to indicate the positions it's either three or four, we take the lowest number both are on carbon number three so it's three comma three dash cos you have to indicate because you've said die methile, you have to indicate where both of those groups are not just one. Alright? That's good! Which means I should have the last one doesn't it? Emma, you were smiling or grimacing one of the two! Erm three comma four comma dash die methile What? Yeah And comma! Yeah, you've got this right, yeah! Three No! comma they're laughing at me! four comma I ain't done nothing! dash Carry on Emma, you're alright! die methile hexane. die methile hexane. Anybody agree with that? Missed one out. Missed the last one. Anybody agree with that? No comma. The alternative could be start from this end is still three four so it doesn't matter. Now, these are examples of positional isomers just using ordinary groups they only differ in the position of those functional groups, sorry, of those groups. Now, in terms of functional group isomerism I'm gonna take a slightly different example right let's take this one here first of all I've now started to do what the examiners will do now I'll make them identical structures there somewhere and you really do need to be able to name them in order to see where they are or if they are. Matthew no aliases today! Would you like to name that one please Matthew? And again, that wasn't a question! Always start these off by considering what they would be if they were alkanes. So if that was an alkane that would be what? Dunno . Four carbons? . Yeah alright. Read these propenes.. If that was an alkane that would be a butane four carbons. .This is an alcohol it has an O H group so it is a butanole but you have to indicate where the O H group actually is it's either on four or it's on one. Oh yeah it is. So you'd name this as butane in other words, you're saying it's a butane chain you take off the E you will add O L and if there are positional isomers possible you have to indicate the position one O L butane one L one O L butane one O L. Butane one O L? Chris! What's that one? Butane one O L. Exactly the same, right! Er Kieran that one there? Butane two O L. Butane two O L. Stick with the question Mark! It's an O L. You say it as though you mean it! Not Butane two O L? Not, Butane two O L, no you see, you yourself . Why is it Butane three O L Kieran? Because you have to take the last number off it. Take the last number, right. Erm Tracey that bottom one, can you Ooh er! see it from there? Sorry Sorry! I'm not sure. Sorry,a tha , that was ac , that was completely ! Pick somebody else! Stop picking on me! Do you want your sticks? And that was completely unintentional! Pick on But can you? Pick on somebody else! Tracey, talk at me! She is ! That I am ! Where's the pu , let's put it up there. No, I mean, quite seriously we're gonna have these things removed cos lose er a third of the anyway. Let's write it up here a bit. I can see it really. Oh we , I wasn't sure if yo , if you could. Oh! Shall I just look past Matthew instead of trying to look through him! Oh ! I just look past Matthew ! That wasn't called for was it? What's Matthew done to you lately? Right come on! Right longest chain longest chain you can find. Now with this little compound you've got to choose the chain that carries the functional group. Three,. Right, listening children? No. You've got to choose the chain that carries the functional group in this case. So And it you're looking at this chain here. So, that's gonna be based on propane, three carbons. Yeah I know. Pro , is that propane one O L? It's the one It would be next to the C. propane wo , it would be propane one Yeah. O L but it's a substituted propane one O L because you're choosing this chain here it means that you've got this group as the substituant and you've replaced one of the hydros with a methile group. Oh! So we start off by saying it's based on propane there's an O H group so it's a propanol the O H is on carbon number one of that chain so it is a propane one O L. Yeah? But, you've also got a methile group on carbon two of that chain. Right? So it's gonna be two methile propane one O L agreed? Dash methile is it three dash methile? Mm. Two dash methile. Well yeah, you're right, yes you're right, no I shouldn't say that! Yeah. Two dash methile propane dash dash O L. Dash dash dot dot. do that get an SOS ! How do you join the erm the methile and the propane together? Is it a comma, is it a dash or what? Or is it all one word? One word. Right. Right now what would you call this? And clearly these two here let's get rid of let's get rid of that. These two here are clearly position isomers. They only differ in the position of that O H group. What would you call this? Branched out. I mean where would you put it Mm. in terms of it's classification? . Would you call it positional? Or and can you call it positional? Yeah. Yeah. Not really, can you? Well It is if you had the other compound where this O H group was on carbon number two as well then those two would be positional isomers cos their carbon skeleton would then be the same and all they would differ is in the position of the O H functional group. Yeah, so if you had if I try and draw it much the same if you had that and let's choose let's choose er, well le , let's keep the same let's keep to the same carbon chain if you had that the carbon skeleton is exactly the same the only way it differs is that the O H group here is on carbon one of that chain that we've chosen where as here, it's on carbon two of that chain. So, those two would be positional isomers. Yeah. But either one of these and what we've already put up you can't really call them positional isomers cos the basic carbon skeleton is different. Can you see the difference between those ? What's this? If I got these two they are positional isomers because the carbon chain is the same and the only way they differ is in a position of a functional group. Yeah. These two here are also positional isomers, there carbon chains are the same the only way they differ is in the position of the functional group. Yo , but you can't say that either one of these and either one of these are positional isomers cos their carbon skeletons are different. Yeah? It's a bit subtle. Right, finally something like a carbon carbon just do a simple one they balance for the carbon skeleton these are true positional isomers, no other problem with them at all er erm! Kempson what would you call this one? Don't cry! I'm sorry to ask you a question Kempson. Can't you be nice for once? I couldn't be nice if I, I've been an absolute swine today! I really have been evil! Then you confuse him I can have one of these now I've been the worst I've been for about six months I really ! Ain't I Trace? If you think about this it's based on the four carbon structure so you've gotta have a few in the name there is a carbon carbon double bond so the basic structure we've got is the Butane but as there is more than one position you could have that carbon carbon double bond now, to indicate this position and so this one would be called futes it would normally be a butane but to indicate it's position bute one E and again you're taking the lowest number so instead of it being a bute three, it's a bute one E you start at the appropriate . So this one would be called bute two E and so again, these are true positional isomers same carbon skeleton they differ in the position of the principle functional group, which in this case, has to be a special electrons. Yeah. Right! Branch chain isomerism What do you think branch chain isomer ber la la isomerism is Tracey? Why me? I'm not picking on, I just this is to help you! I like to help you. Don't be dirty Matthew! It's where you got the er the branch chains coming off of different positions. different branch even! Oh! Yeah, try to use the word position. Try not to or try to? Try to use the wo , try not to use the word position. Oh alright. Cos that takes you backwards. It's things like this er, five my father's getting excited! Right they are typical alkane branch chain isomers. They're the same molecular formula the only way they differ is in the way the basic chain is structured. They're all pentate. This one you would just call pentate. This one, your longest chain is a four chain so it's based on butane and you have a methile group on carbon number two, taking the lowest number of carbon number two of that butane chain. So this would be a two methile because if that's butane the methile butane . This one here, your longest chain is a propane chain, a three chain we've now got two methile groups as substituants what would you call that Matthew? Oh. Methile . Oh God! Robin? What on your nose? No! Yo you were looking at me Matthew how can you be writing something down! that's the erm . What do you think Matthew? Say it again cos I wasn't listening. What do you think Matthew? ! Let's ask somebody else shall we? Yeah. Do you think that's a good idea, let's ask somebody ask somebody else let's ask Kieran. Why doesn't he ever ask ? Right, Oh God! Is it er Two two dash two methile Two da , two comma comma methile So, what do you say then? Two comma, two dash methile die die methile Die methile Right you got it wrong! Longest chain? Methile die methile . prop pan melthane You know you put an E under the first one, do you have to? No you don't! You cannot put an E in front of this one! That is not systematic momegliture that has gone like that for ten years universities still use it! That is just called pentate it is not called E M penta any more equally you don't have sec butile alcohol turk turt butile alcohol they've been out for ten years! It looks good! Alright? Right, now that is just pentate these are all pentates that is specifically pentate. Phew! Right, so that's an example of branch chain isomers. Now, functional group isomers what does this suggest Emma? Don't you swallow that goldfish! Finish that up! Penny saw them first! Then, when you've done that . cruel! Unless it's the golden wish! Sorry! Emma! What was the question? What is fu fu functional group? Have a guess. Well wha wha wha what do you think we mean by functional group isomerism? Erm it means they have the same functional group. Er they do not, they in fact, have different functional groups. Okay,different functional groups. Same molecular formula Yeah. different functional groups. Yes. So, for example this one here, very close to Keith and Trevor this one here, the best possible thing we can give to Matthew. What do you think Uncle John what's that top compound what type of compound is it? Aunty Tracey that bottom compound, what type of compound is that? Tricky actually! Mm. It's neither one thing or the other. Either one thing . Yeah, it's me , methile. It's methile yes methile absolutely right! It's a methile. So here we have this what's, this what Stevie likes it gives him his his classic way of getting back at me! This is an alcohol this is an ether now while we've got the opportunity we'll talk about the naming of ethers before we get onto this this last form of structural isomerism. This if that O H group was not there the ethile it's an O H group so it's an alcohol, so you take off the E, add O L and your positional number is not required. So, it would simply be ethanol for vodka, whisky, bacardi Ha ! meths Matthew! Generally industrial meths is ethanol And it's got methanol in it as well. Industrial meths is ethanol! What you're thinking of the pink stuff has the methanol in it! Yeah. That's why you go blind if you drink it and that's where the term blind drunk comes from. What is called industrial meths is ethanol. And . Because that's the old term that's been used for however many years, and it's still used by industry. Cos I did say earlier that universities are behind in terms of this momegliture and so is industry. So you still you still buy it it's actually butile alcohol. But they're now ca , they're now catching up they're now putting on the label its proper name. But Customs and Excise still call this industrial meths unless it's pure etha , completely pure ethanol in other words, no water in it and then they can call it absolute alcohol but they don't specify which alcohol it is look! Got some they've got some old terminology still around the organics, still in use around organics, it should be. And omit wherever you go. Right, now this thing here what you have to e , do, have to do is to imagine that it's an alkane with this oxygen containing group butane. Now, in this case, it doesn't matter which one I use because they're both exactly the same. This group here the general group, if I put O R and that R represents an alkyl the general name is alkoxy. If we specify what the R group is in this case, it's a methile group this would be called methoxy so there'll be methoxy group is the substituant. In this case without it this would be methane so this would actually be called methoxy methane. Some are chloro- methane is an sort o , an analogy. Methoxy methane. That's where Stevie gets his oxy oxy ethane bit from. Those of you who do biology, who does biology here? Yeah, there's always one or two. Those of you who do biology and have Stevie if you're ever ever bored silly right? Like us When you're bored bored at other times, let's put it that way if he starts doing any bio-chemistry at all start as , start asking him about the proper names of the systematic names of things and you watch him bristle! He was talking about you yesterday. Yeah he was He said he thought had you behind him. Really? What what did he say?, he says zappy! He said dappy slappy! No, I was trying to say was Oh no! I, I'll talk to you about that later Emma actually. What I was trying to say was, if you're really bored with him and he's doing is, any form of bio-chemistry start asking him about the correct names, what are they? Say it, you say it like that, what's the correct name? Cos straight away,yo , you're implying that he's wrong! And he really bristles! His hair always stands up on end! It's brilliant! And he starts going oh oxy oxy methane, and he stamps his feet! It's ever so funny! It really is comical! So you should do it? That's right. You have to get him wound down a bit, you have to do it, you know of a about half an hour or so ask him for the proper name! It's absolutely brilliant! He goes mad! He's you see,bu but after about twenty minutes or so he loses touch with what's what you're actually doing and if, if you catch him just right he goes berserk! It's really funny! Stamps his little feet! stamping feet Anyway he's actually a good friend he knows I say these sort of things about him but erm it's good! I'm gonna tell him! Right, so this'll be called Yeah,. this will be called methoxy methane. Okay? Now, that's and example of functional group isomerism what I'd like you to do now is to try and decide what these two things are called I'm gonna put on the board and try and decide what you would call them in terms these general labels under structural isomerism. If I just draw the carbon skeleton. Oh no, I, I'll put the hydros in for you as well because I'm I'm helpful like that! It says so in my C V! Right, now they're both ethers try and name them first in naming them take the biggest hydro-carbon chunk that you can find and pretend that that was an alkane so the smaller chunk then becomes the substituant. So, for example, in that first one the longest chain you've got is a three so it's a derivative it's an oxy derivative of propane. Once you've got the names then decide what you think what type of isomerism you think it actually is. It's really weird! And I'll give you the old name for it. Alright? methoxy pro propate. Yeah exactly right! The first one is methoxy propate in other words you're saying, effectively, this group here wasn't the longest chain you can get is a propate. So you got a methoxy group so this one Page six. is methoxy propate. Now what about this one? Mm. Ethoxy ethate, exactly right! Exactly right, well done! These are some of the most difficult, well it is compound that student's don't are extremely difficult to name! And the , they're effectively fairly easy, don't do much on them you won't, oh yeah, you meet ethers very much at all. There was a time, I can remember I was at school Cor! Yes I can think that far back ! So can Adam ! Yes! No, I think I find it easiest, I remember when I was at school and you can't remember when you were last at college on time! Ooh! Exactly ! Erm I can actually remember making ether as a practical I mean it's something you wouldn't dare even think about doing now! Cos the stuff's actually lethal! You know what I mean, it's a narcotic it'll send some of you more asleep than you already are! Also it's it's so inflammable you go anywhere near a naked flame sorry flame What? you don't even use you don't even need to use a naked flame, you just need a hot surface like Matthew's kneecap ! And it ignites all on it's own!a terrible state! Also any of you go to university to do , course you all will to some extent cos you love chemistry so much! It sits here. We never ever distil ether without checking first that it doesn't contain incompoundable peroxides, organic peroxides which contain this and single bond cos things explode! Yeah. But yo , but luckily we had to check our bottles to make sure there's no peroxides in them. That's lethal stuff! Anyway now, what would you call it Jason? I'd call it functional group isomers. Justification? Because erm the actual functional group on the end it's only just it's only just been moved What is the fu ah, but what is, it's the wrong word! What is the functional group? I'm not having a go at you, don't be so sluggish! What is the functional group in ether? The functional group is a singly bonded option to two carbon atoms. Mm. Which you've got in both. Yeah. The methoxy and the ethoxy are not functional groups. It's that arrangement of saturated carbon oxygen saturated carbons that's the functional group. Irrespective of ho , how many more carbons are attached to those two carbons. It's tricky! Erm uncle Stuart, long time no . What do you think Stuart? What would you call it? Well the only thing is Speak up! The only real thing that seems to be changing in is the compound in position of the oxy Is this how you spoke in your interview then Stuart ? Yes, I'm awfully glad to be here! God I'm so excited at being able to come to study and That's right. do my degree, I can hardly wait! Oh my God! That's not fair! That's not fair! Why, do you speak and jog around It would help! It would help! Calm down! Should have told him to his face. Shut up! Yes go on what you were saying. Er well you've totally made me miss my train of thought! Er That wasn't what you saying! Well you made me You were saying, you were talking about positioning, about . You are moving the position of the oxygen and although it isn't a er a er well no,functional group ? No. The function group is the fact that it's simply bonded to two carbons. And er Which doesn't really help. Would it, would it influence the er compound by the . That's right Stuart. The influence is the physical property but not the chemical one. Ethers are ethers are ethers. Would a methile influence in the same way? No. Yeah, as I've already said. Well then the carbons you get is What he's really saying is that he doesn't know the answer to the question! Well I've eliminated it's impossible I know you're eliminating yeah and al and also eliminating half the brain cells in the room! This is still Is that it? Yes. he did actually say that. Yeah, it is over now! Back to normality! No, I know what you're saying er So it's not a positional isomer. It's very difficult! You can't really call it a positional isomer as such What about the bonding arrangement? Is it an isomer because sort of What? Thank you. He's doing A level maths right there's three there! Well there's four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten hydrogens right Brian No! Daniel Do it on your own! Daniel, alright Daniel can't add up to ten! Look I said Right wha Any of them could add up to ten! Look, you see there ah he's got two different numbers of hydrogens up there! Yeah, well put me down! Cos I'm in the right! Well, there you are, that's it! Who can count up to ten? Me. Without a calculator! Without a calculator! It told you! Right then That's what told me, A level maths you could. Oh I don't really ! A level sums! Right, sums, the answer is The answer is Matthew! Do you wanna keep it? Is that, you can't really call it any of what we've seen up to now not with any with full sort of real erm B F D it's called. ain't the first diploma B F D. There is a word that's used, there's a term that's used for this sort of effect this is the term it used to be called . Metamerism. It's a worm. A worm. What's a, what's funny? It's a label that's all! There's no joke there Chris! Yeah, these people will laugh at anything today! Well they're su , they're stupid boys that's why! Say that again Can you slap then! all of them! Can I slap all of them? Mm. You only have to slap this end and it passes along anyway! Yeah, do it! It won't do any damage cos Chris is in the middle! You're like a buffer! Buffer. hair. Well . Anyway, by the looks of it there won't a , there ain't much longer at least I kept mine for forty six years! Mine's Jus jus just brush it back, let's have a look see if there is anything in there ! Can't you brush it back together come on! Good grief! Cor! It's like looking at the mirror innit? A receding hair line is a sign of intelligence. Thanks Al! Obviously obviously it's a genetic throwback with Chris, it's not worked with him! Oh! Ha ha! Throw up, yeah! Right an used to be called metermarism and I say, it's not a word it's not a term I've seen on for many many years and you don't seen it many erm modern organic texts. I think it's still around and they've gotta call it something if erm if you think word. Right now! Stereo-isomerism next exhausted icuma You ought to ! Not a lot! We've exhausted the structural side of isomerism, now we can look at the stereo isomerism. Now the stereo isomerism is all about spatial chemistry, much more than just the way things are attached. Yes? It's not just the way the things are attached together, joined together it's more about the actual space how they're arranged in space but . There are two forms of stereo isomerisms that we recognise and don't forget, these labels are purely arbitrary. The first one is called geometrical isomerism in some books not that you ever read, will read any chemistry books but just in case you stumble over one day and fall flat on your face and there happens to be a chemistry text book open and you ha , just happen to read one or two of the words as you go unconscious and in Matthew's case if you wake up! Geometrical isomerism is sometimes, or has sometimes been called cis trans-isomerism. It's not the right term to use not really. cis trans c i s and t r a n s.. They're laughing again are they? If go like this to Daniel you can slap them Don't be like that! actually! You're not allowed to slap! You're not allowed to slap them? Why's that? My mum told me it was nude! You're mum told you Yeah that's that's naughty! Bet he's gonna take ! Your mum told you what? Yo , your mum told you to do it in the nude? I meant rude! I was gonna say, when can I come round and see your mum? Why is it rude to slap people Emma? They deserve it! They're boys! slap you. Maybe I should see behind! Right geometrical isomerisms results when you have rotation about a bond axis prevented. If you draw a normal carbon carbon single bond which is a sigma bond what's a sigma bond Daniel? It's where two E T impression! Yeah like that. Yeah end on overlap, lookalike Daniel but I I'll take I could be quite insulting but there you are! End on overlap of the. Now there's free rotation about that carbon carbon axis. Now, the other type of overlap is lateral overlap where the is always o , overlapping that way and you try and rotate about that bond axis you'll break the overlap. And any double bond will consist of a sigma bond and pie bond and because you've got the pie bond there it then restricts rotation about that carbon carbon bond axis and providing you have different groups here different groups of, at each end or just one in there at both ends you can get two different isomers. When the groups are attached on the same side of the double bond, that shows we use prefix cis dash in front of the name. So you've named it systematically and then looked to see where the, the various groups were and put cis in front if you had that arrangement. If they're opposite to each other the same type of idea, you've named it just one in If you draw is it used to be a rom of calcite or or a prism of calcite which will do the job. Nowadays, they have, obviously sca synthetic polymers which would be er much more easier the same sort of thing as they have in sunglasses. So the light that actually comes out will be vibrating in specific planes, but not all planes every plane in . It will then go through a container now that container, ultimately, will contain this is why it's called a container! Will ultimately go through the solution that you're looking at, in terms of optical activity it comes out t'other end, cos light tends to do that, you know it'll come t'other end and at this end, after going through a length system etcetera, will be a an eyeball. Just one? Just one. Very difficult to look through to through a lens with two eyeballs at the same time! Unless they are pre-mensile eyes you know, they sort of they come out, sort of go down together and be just above the actual eyelid. Thank you for that philosophical thought . It's alright. Now, the way you use it, it varies one way to use it is to start with this empty and you'll find that this end here, the actual eyepiece can be rotated, it has a scale like as in fish, Stuart. Sorry! You know the lines. Or as in weighing you could have picked weighing scales as an example couldn't you? Weighing scales. Weighing scales! Don't you the balance Stuart? Weighing scales ah well that's sad! That's really sad! Can I just talk to you about them ones? I'd don't do that again! After I've heard their conversation for God's sake you know, have a bit of heart! Yes, that's what it means, it means weighing scales. What he meant was a balance. Erm right if this you're enjoying this Mark aren't you? Dunno why, they'll start me off now! There are various ways of using them one way, to look through which yo , which you have to to see the light, you know, otherwise you won't see it ! Yes, Daniel it's true! Don't gasp in surprise! You do actually have to look through to see the light coming out! You look through and you rotate that eyepiece until you've either got maximum brightness cos you got a second polaroid system in there as well you see you either get maximum brightness or complete darkness. What you then do make a note of that all that, as I read it to you what you then do is to put your solution into that container you have to otherwise it comes out the ends! Put your solution into that container, that solution is of a known concentration this path then is also known Matthew! This path then is also known and in terms of accurate work, they also know the temperature now I'm not sure if there's a temperature effect on rotation, but it wouldn't surprise me if there was. Anyway you then look through it with the solution in and you'll find that if, for example, you started off with it completely dark you'll find it's then grey cos the plane of light's been rotated, now it's where there was no light getting through now some of it is actually getting through, cos it's been rotated. And so you then rotate the eyepiece, Christopher! You then rotate the eyepiece I was trying! Yes but Danny's talking! It's Danny's turn! Well shut up then! Oh God! You then rotate, oh look at this! I really hate you Danny! Listen to this! He's totally ! You then rotate the eyepiece so you get back to the condition that you had before. So if you started off in complete darkness you rotate until you get complete darkness or the opposite. And you measure the angle through which you've had to turn to get to that position, and which direction you've had to turn it through or rather, which direction the light had been rotated through. Yeah? And that gives you, something called, specific rotation which will be a constant for those conditions indicated and for that substance. Now, one of them will rotate to the right, one will rotate to the left what you need to be able to do is to identify the condition that will give that give rise to optical isomers, in other words, to be able to say yes, that molecule will have optical isomers. Optical isomers are sometimes called inentiamorse if you have trouble with language then we'll call them inantipas if you're a biologist you call them optical isomers. Actually we was just saying that. That was just malicious! Slander! Yep! What does it mean? What slander? No, inantiamorse or whatever it's called? That's the name for optical isomers. It's the posh name for it's the one that chemist use! You know, optical isomers, alright? methane is punity Right now you must be able to recognise in, either a structural formula or a condensed formula you must be able to recognise existence of what is called and asymmetric centre if you are a chemist kiral centre if you are a super chemist if you are a biologist an atom bonded to different ones. That's assuming there's biologist and chemist!! Ha ha ha ha ha ha! I'm a bush. Aye? That is a bush. Does look strange ! ! Right so what you're looking for in any formula shush daddy's talking Matthew! What you're looking in any formula say from a carbon compound you would be looking for that was bonded to four different groups, it doesn't matter what the groups are, it doesn't matter how big, how small they are And that one as well? but they're bonded to different groupings so, for example, if one had something like this er, let's call that see three, page seven if I had something like that that central carbon there and when they draw these things at an exam paper, don't expect it to be the central one. I could've actually drawn this quite differently and maybe one of the carbons of on the side yeah? That carbon that I've got in the centre now and the convention is to use a little star. Ah! That's definitely bent! Put two in here er, I get that sort of Christmassy spirit building up Brandy vodka Brandy? On the Christmas pudding! I thought it was a fairy! Pardon? Get the . I never ! He said brandy . little heart, bless her! What's the, oh! No I won't ask! Don't so we use a little star on the atom, and it may not always be carbon, cos we don't get this sort of isomerism, indeed, like compounds as well. Use a little star to indicate which is the asymmetric centre which kiral centre and all it means is that if you were to dra , if you had a a kiral molecule in other words, it had four different groups attached to it what it means is that it and it's mirror image, this is the way you actually draw it and answer the questions you draw you draw it as if there was a mirror image. That's why it's damn tricky to do it! You draw it to show that it has a mirror image so what you find in practice is that it and it's mirror image are not superimposable. In other words like your hands and feet etcetera they're mirror images you can't thank you they're mirror images that you can't superimpose. You can't even superimpose to that extent cos they're slightly different can't even superimpose that my fingers can't superimpose cos they're slightly different. You actually make up a structure like this tetraneedle carbon we did have another one but er, obviously there's some students have erm decided to do something different with the er things that's all that's left! Not funny Kieran! Here I'm holding hand, model, model hand! Here I am holding a model of a tetraneedle carbon in four different groups of ten and here is it's mirror image. It's been a ! It was! Honest! That was it's mirror image! So that's been changed out of that. Pardon? Right, and there's not really enough! I mean gotta pretend there's another one of these there! But there would of been! There's it's mirror image and what you will find is that you can superimpose side by side and two, any two of those atoms there those groups but then, straight away the other two are out of position the other two have reversed. So if I take this one and put this one I can superimpose the red straight away I've superimposed a group, but look the blue and re , and the white are out. Ah! Watch, see it goes. Can you see that? No. It's sad innit? Or I can superimpose the green one Notice now that the white one the two white ones are superimposed but now look the two reds and the two blues are now not superimposed any longer. That's what we mean by non-superimposed . Tracey's trying to work out how a , bless her! I know I've only got one left, yeah. But it would have been a . Yeah, shut up! Oh, I'm tired! So optical isomerism results Optical isomerism results when a structure and it's mirror image are non-superimposable. Right? This takes us to four fifteen. I know that cos it says so on here. It might be wrong! What I wanted to do today was to start to talk about mechanisms but I think I've exhausted my erm what's the word I'm looking for? Pardon? Ooh! What was that? Pardon? Gangrene. I didn't hear you then! What we'll do is we'll leave it at that, that doesn't mean your going anywhere! Now, are there any aspects about the isomerism you want clarifying apart from the whole lot? Do that one again. That last one you just did I didn't understand a word No. of that! Well the thing to do maybe I should have a word with him. Well I understand where you got that Now be subtle about it! Your explanation was a load of crap mate! No, Danny, I want to know about it right? But I don't understand what you just said then. Ooh, now you've made him mad! Ooh ooh ooh! I needed some ! Tones really with his shirt! Can he turn greener than his shirt! Can you specifically make a different erm er optical isomers. You can to some extent What about When you When the chemical reactions very often the two that are produced erm well usually, when you ca , come into reactions and materials that are produced are a mixture of both isomers. In other words, usually the chemistry is non selective. Yeah? If both isomers are being formed. Tha , that by the way, is called a racenate or the Is this racemic mixture. A what a r racenate? A racenate , r a c e n a t e or racemic mixture. What about this though? Hang on! That's, that's geometrical. Said, yeah, but you can have . To some extent you can, yeah. It's a mixture of the But with optical you try to produce a particular isomer, what you normally Have you ? get is the racemic mixture in other words, both are there but it has no ah! Both are there but it has no effect on plane polarised light, for instance, like, as if one of them is trying to rotate it to the left by so many degrees and the other one is rotating to the right by the said the amount. So that they, they can only twenty. Yeah. What we can do now we can use systems to, once we've got the racemic mixture we can use systems to separate that racemic mixture. We can also use biological systems to separate them because biological systems, like protein synthesis and things like that are very selective in terms of the one they the, the isomer they will pick up. If they do happen to pick up the wrong isomer erm, these isomers by the way, you'll find things put in front of them like you often find a little d or a little l in front of the name it means dextarosatory rotated to the right and leverosatory Lever? Alright, I'll get out the way then ! leverosatory rotating to the left you find these this prefix appearing in front of a name if it's the compound is optically active. If it's a racemic mixture you sometimes find saying that both are there. Biological systems tend to normally pick up a particular isomer in most cases, if they pick up the wrong one it will affect, for example the protein chain it will affect, ultimately, its three dimensional structure and therefore, it's function. Now, it may or not me noticeable if it's a minor alteration in the surface geometry then it may be so slight as to make no difference in the way it performs so if, for example, it's an enzyme it may not affect it at all . But in some cases the having a different isomer can affect the three dimensional properties in such a way that it will no longer function efficiently as an enzyme as a catalyst to the reaction it's supposed to catalyse then you start to get problems. So some genetic problems are a result or a, shown to be the result of a wrong amino acid being incorporated into the protein chain and therefore repricated and on and on and on. But we can now use biological systems to actually separate them and actually select particular isomers. But normally chemically speaking, when a particular reaction takes ta , careful of those Emma! Emma! Take the pen out of your nose dear, thank you! She's now sucking the end of the pen! At least it wasn't stuck up the bum! Erm chemically speaking, if you carry out a reaction which can produce an optically active compound, you would normally the recenate and then you have to separate by either chemical method or the physical method and it's usually not very easy. If you're gonna separate chemically, say for example, you produced erm an organic acid which is optically active the things you would normally have to do is to use a base to make the salt of, you know, you make the two optically salt and then separate them by a thing such as fractional crystallisation and then we generate the acid afterwards very very tricky! Not as tricky as the original one this effect was discovered, I think, by Pasteur in tartaric acid and he happened to notice, he had a proper tartaric acid crystals. That's the sort of question to ask Stevie , by the way he says tartaric acid, ask him for it's proper chemical name. What is it? I dunno. It loops it goes down a bit. Anyway he happened to notice, God knows how, like, cos this cry , the crystals you used were quite small! He happened to notice that there were crystals which appeared to be mirror images of each other. And so, it goes beyond the actual molecular stage if you can have this compound in crystallised form, as you can most though you might have to reduce the temperature or whatever, but then all is gone gone crystalline eventually you'll find their crystals are also mirror images and what he actually did, he painstakingly picked out crystals which were of one particular shape as opposed to the other, he actually separated all the crystals physically by using tweezers and then found that they ha , you know, the two had a different affect on plane polarised light. Incredible! Now, in answer to your question Christopher Yeah. I've now made single handedly cos I'm like that single handed! You didn't have one ready or anything? I did, but some students took it bits! I now have a molecule of this there it was there again, now it's back in again and out now they're gone now they're back! It's magic! What I have here is are mirror images alright? Complete mirror images, yes? Yeah. Now, you find that those mirror images are not superimposable so I can in order to superimpose the red and the white if only I can on doing that, straight away the blue and the green are non-superimposable. So those two things would be optical isomers one would rotate the plane of polarised light to the left the other would rotate the plane of polarised light to the right. Cor,! Trying to up it. Yeah? Yeah I think I got that. Any other questions? Price of fish, meaning of life? When you've finished the class? What is erm erm, the meaning of life? Can we do it? Thirty eight and half. Thirty eight point five. The meaning of life? Yeah! No, it's forty two. Forty two. Thirty eight point five. I have it on good assurance It's thirty two. He thinks your mad! actually! Any other er, dunno where you're going, it's not time yet! Let's spin this out to the last possible second. It means, like thirty eight point five . I know! Right, any other questions about what we've done today? Oh! Nuclear cis trans can you have, say, with two b's and one carbon? Can what? Can you have the two b b's and one carbon? No, because then you won't get isomers. That won't be ota , they won't be erm geometrical isomers. Now if you, and if you rotate one oh yeah it's in you get the other one. positional innit? Yeah. You keep changing the carbon. Anything else? I must just say to yo , you're dying to ask, like what he's doing over the corner? Not a lot! I, I feel sorry for you, you mis , obviously a second time being in contact with Daniel! Yeah, he is quite a shock! Kenton knows Kenton's a real He still does nothing! That's right! He was talking about you before you came out actually. Yeah. He was! You should have been here early Kenton I missed your presence! Excuse me ! Right, anybody else at all? What's that noise? That's on B B C one. What's that noise? It sounds like a cat when it plays up! I worry about you sometimes Emma! I I really do worry about you! Who saw the Mary Whitehouse Experience ? Yeah. Who saw Kermit vomiting in his pint glass! I didn't ! Really the only thing I was disappointed about is that he didn't drink it again! If that had been a true man he'd have drunk it again afterwards! But he's not a man! Waste not want not! That's very true! But he thinks he's a man doesn't he? Kermit's a transsexual. Emma knows that!! I think we leave now . I think that's probably a very good place to leave! Thank you for allowing me to .. Well yes since leaving college yes it's been predominantly figurative and I always take my subject matter from things that I've seen which have interested me for one reason or another. Which college did you go to? I went to Edinburgh College of Art. Is it a while since you were at school here then? Yes it's in fact er I left school here in nineteen seventy six so it's eleven years since I was here. But I've been back recently as a teacher so it's I've to do a quick change act from a twin-set and pearls into a beret and er smock to become an artist . What sort of questions have the children been asking you? Well they've been very direct and they've been having to make me think a lot about what I'm doing. They asked me first of all why I paint on paper and I'm using older to paint on. And I explained to them it's because having been unemployed most of my professional life that I've always been short of money and that's what's led me to work on very cheap materials. So I explained it's mostly a practical thing. There's not the mystery around it really and I've sort of made that into one of my points about =bout my work and also erm I always thought perhaps once I became wealthy and had money I would do real paintings in oil and canvass. But er I then explained to them that I realize that it doesn't actually matter and it's the quality of the image that you produce that matters and not what it's made of or on. So I try an encourage them that their images and what they chose to make pictures of are as important as my ones. Have you ever had Arts Council grant assistance or grants from any other source? No. I've had indirect help through the Arts Centre and the Traverse Gallery but I've never had funding paid to me directly in any way or prizes or anything like that. So it's not an easy life? No but I think you do I mean I manage. And in a way I'm quite glad to be outside that circuit because my existence as a an artist is in many ways more real than to be cosseted by Arts Council money. It's been good I like I really like the way she's used . I think it's really relevant to the pictures I think it's really good. And I think that Marion's it's awful sort of bold and bright and I'm not so keen on that. Are you hoping to take up art after you leave school? Well I did think about it but the Careers Officer advised me no cos he thought that you have to be really really good before y get in and he asked me if I thought I was really good and I said that well I was not too bad but and he said that he thought it would be better to concentrate on something else. It's quite difficult to get a job afterwards too it's quite hard to make money after you have come out of college. Are you going to give it a try though? I don't know made my mind up yet. Jenny, what have you enjoyed about watching these two at work? Well I think it's been awful interesting to see the pictures develop and like they're so rough at first and they're and more developed and they're more things in them and the colours are getting more definite and everything. How much do you paint yourself apart from in school? I've just sort of painted recently so I do a bit but no much. Are you going to take it up? No I don't think so . Too hard a life? Yes I would say so Do you like er colour work or abstract work or more figurative work, which do you like best? Well I think colour's awful important so I liked in Marion's an awful lot. That was very good. What what did you like about the work Lucy? Erm I like Marion's because of the the colours in it but I didn't I didn't really like Fiona's because I didn't think it was vivid enough. Whereas Marion's sort of it it didn't tell a story like what erm Fiona's did but it was just it's the kind of painting I like. Has it been an interesting experience then for you all seeing artists so close and at work? Yes definitely Would you like to have more of it? Yes How much has it made you think then about your own painting just watching these two hard at work? Maybe I'm just a bit too careful with what I do. I don't like they've both they've worked as they've gone along and haven't been scared to put colours in and things. Whereas when I work I'm sort of too careful I think I'm too scared to do something. Well I think like Lucy said it has made you think about the really. You put the paint on thick you no to be too careful and just er do what you feel like you know just what you think you should. I agree with Jenny but I don't think I am too frightened to slop on paint cos you know since I've started doing pallet knife paintings cos it's really made me feel fair more confident. Would you all say that? Yes Well I'm trying anyway . And when Pilate saw that he was accomplishing nothing but rather that a riot was starting, he took water and washed his hands in front of the multitude saying, I am innocent of this man's blood, see to that yourselves. And all the people answered and said his blood be on us and our, and on our children. Then he released Barabbas for them, but after having Jesus scourged he delivered him to be crucified. Here then is this man who has this very unusual interview with Jesus Pilate the hard hearted and hard headed governor of Judea, the representative of Caesar the might of imperial Rome and he has upon his hands for trial a man whom he is convinced is innocent. A man has been falsely accused, a man who is standing in a court against trumped up charges. A man concerning whom Pilate has to pronounce a verdict. It's up to him. Jesus can either physically live or die. The decision rests with Pilate. Now he's tried to shift the responsibility, and that's something we're all good at doing, we like shifting the responsibility, whether it's in even the very tiny things in life, or whether it's major issues, we like to shift the responsibility to other people, then if it goes wrong we're alright, our hands are clean, we we'll have nothing to do with it. And so, Pilate he tries to do this, he tries first of all to shift the responsibility, and he does it by different methods, first of all he sends into Herod, the king then he suggests that Barabbas should be released to the people, now however, both of these methods of shifting responsibility have failed and the ball is firmly back with Pilate. He has got to take the next action, it's up to him now. It's no good sending him to Herod, he's found that out. No good suggesting to the people they release Barrabas cos they said, we don't want Barabbas. Now, Jesus has come back again upon his hands, and he Pilate is faced with this tremendous decision. The voice of conscience is thundering in his soul and he stands before this huge crowd of people. A few moments ago there they were shouting, away with him! Crucify him! We don't want him! Take him away! Put him to death! In front of them he gets a bowl of water and he washes his hands says I'm free from this innocent man's blood. Well of course, he wasn't free. You need more than a bowl of water to solve your, to salve your conscience and to, and to be free from innocent blood. But what a dramatic scene this is! But you see the important thing about this scene is not what is taking place there it's not really that Pilate is standing in, in the trial as the judge of Jesus, it's not that Pilate has i , within his hands the power of life and death for Jesus, that's not the important issue, that's not the real significance of this incident, the real significance is that every one of us at some time or other stand in the same place that Pilate stood. That's the real significance for you and for me. It's not just an event in history two thousand years ago, something that happened way back i in a back water of the Roman empire, that's not the really important issue for you and for me today it's, the important thing is that you and I have to stand in that same place that Pilate stood and we have to make that same decision, what will I do then with Jesus that is called the Christ? That is the decision you have to face up to, that's the decision I have to face up to . We can put it off for a while, we can say I'll leave it till I'm older, I'll leave it till some other time, I don't want to make that decision now. We may be able to put it off for a while, but make that decision, we have got to, some day or another. What will I do with Chri , with Jesus that is called Christ? What will you do? How will you respond? Will you send him to the gallows? I don't want anything to do with him, take him away! Have done with him! Or will you respond positively, yes I will receive you, I will you accept you. But that is the decision every one of us has to make, and that is the real significance of this scene here in Jerusalem. It speaks to you and it speaks to me of our attitude, of our response towards Jesus Christ. And as we look over these next few minutes, we'll consider that it was Pilate who rejected and who crucified the Lord Jesus. It is of course, true that, although Pilate pronounced the verdict Jesus was already, as the bible says, a lamb slain from before the foundation of the world. In God's purposes Jesus had already gone to the cross, he was alre ,hi his, his natural fate if you like, was already sealed, he had come for this purpose, he had come to die. There were that tremendous sense in which Jesus had to die. There was sense in which, it wasn't really in Pilate's hands, because Jesus had said to him, if I wanted I would speak to my father, he would send ten legions of angels and they would deliver me out of your hands, Pilate, you have no power over me. You see, the real issue for Pilate wasn't what he was gonna do with Jesus, as far as the cross was concerned it was what he was gonna do with Jesus as far as his life was concerned. And that's the issue that you face, and that I face. What do we do with Jesus that is called the Christ? The soldiers of Judas betrayed him, the soldiers arrested him,th the the the scenario works out, it all unfolds they nail him to a cross. As a nation the Jews are responsible for his death, but it was Pontius Pilate who delivered him to be crucified, who announced the verdict, who pronounced the sentence. But was it? Later on in the bible, in Hebrews chapter six, in verse six, listen to these words. It says it is impossible to new the ma , renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the son of God and to put him to open shame. This surely, whatever else it means, this, for this scripture here surely means that those people who had the opportunity of accepting Christ, of responding to him, but who have rejected him, they are in exactly the same position as Pontius Pilate. Before you and I can ever point a finger to Pilate, what have you done, what have I done with Jesus that is called Christ? In rejecting him we share that same guilt, that Pilate had. Well let's just consider for a moments then this morning, in in some of the ways in which we can be like Pilate the first thing I see here is that Pilate rejected the Lord Jesus Christ although he had tremendous opportunities of doing otherwise. Of all the thousands, the tens of thousands of people who lived in Palestine, of all the thousands of people who were crowded into Jerusalem, for this religious festival here is Pilate in this favoured position of having a personable, personal face to face encounter with Jesus Christ. He can ask all the questions he wants to ask, he can find out the answers, not from a third party, but from Jesus Christ himself! Is it true what folk are saying? Is it true the things that you've been declaring about yourself? The miracles you've done, are they true, or are they just tricks? Tell me about yourself. All the opportunities that Pilate had and in front of, and despite all of those opportunities he still rejects the Lord Jesus. There are few people who are, who have had a more unique opportunity of welcoming Christ into their life, than Pilate had. Over these, over those few hours many times Pilate was faced with the Lord Jesus, and he recognized who he was. Pilate had the opportunity of coming to him, but instead he delivered Jesus to be crucified. How many people there are who have many opportunities of accepting Christ. They hear about him, again and again, and still they, as the bible says, harden their heart and continue to reject him just like Pilate. The tragedy is that life has now become complex and involved, and they wonder if they can ever break themself from all those things that are now hindrances. Break themself from all those things that hold them and that captivate them and hold their interest. It is always a most solemn thing to turn down an opportunity of accepting Jesus Christ. It is not something, oh well I didn't feel like it, it is not a light hearted thing, because it is the most fantastic, the most solemn the most life-changing decision we can ever, ever make! Let me read you two or three other verses from that same book of Hebrews that we read from a few moments ago. First of all in chapter three and in verse seven, it says therefore, just as the Holy Spirit says, today if you hear his voice do not harden your hearts . It goes on and uses the picture of the children of Israel in the wilderness, how they harden their hearts. It says don't be like that, don't harden your hearts when you hear his voice. Further on in that same book in chapter twelve and verse twenty five See to it that you do not refuse him, that is, the Lord Jesus who is speaking, for if those did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, how much less shall we escape who turn away from him, who warns from heaven? The apostle here gives two very clear and very solemn warnings about rejecting Jesus, about turning a deaf ear to him. You see, the bible tells us, God isn't mocked. In chapter two of Hebrews, in verse two, for if, in verse three sorry! It says there,how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation , if we ignore God's offer, if we ignore the ga , the the offer of Jesus Christ, of forgiveness and of life, how shall we escape? the apostle asks. Pilate then, he rejected the Lord Jesus despite the tremendous opportunities he had. Then again, he rejected the Lord Jesus knowing full well that he was doing wrong. He did not reject Jesus out of ignorance, because he knew who he was. He was convinced that he was innocent. In another account of cro , of the, of the trial of Jesus, in Luke, chapter twenty three, in verse four,Pilate said to the chief Priest and the multitudes, I find no guilt in this man. He said er, I find nothing in him worthy of death . More than that, Pilate believed that he was the King of the Jews, that's why he had it written up and put over his cross. Jesus, the King of the Jews. And when the folk remonstrated with him,an and said take it down! He's not the King of the Jews, put it up, he said he was the King of the Jews. Pilate said hold on, what I have written, I have written. He's saying I believe in what I've written there. How solemn it is to believe that Jesus is the son of God, the saviour of the world, and yet to reject him. To be a Christ rejecter, is to be in the same position as Pilate was in. To know that's it right to receive him, and wrong to reject him, and yet to join with the crowd and say, away with him! Crucify him! Then again, Pontius Pilate, he rejected the Lord Jesus, although he was entreated and warned not to do so by his loved one. Legend tells us that after Pilate committed suicide his wife became a christian. But, at this particular time there is no indication that she was one. But, a marvellous thing happened whilst the trial is going on don't forget, it's in the dead of night and whilst the trial is going on there is Pilate's wife at home in bed sleeping, and she has a dream, and seemed as though God spoke to her, and she saw and recognized the awful deed that her husband was about to commit, so she sent an urgent message to him that is, you've got it in ve ve verse nineteen have nothing to do with that righteousness man for last night I suffered greatly in a dream because of him. Maybe in your life there are those around you, friends, families who love you and er, and er, who are urging you to respond to Jesus Christ and to receive him as your saviour. That was a similar sort of situation that Pilate was in. His wife says, don't do what you're gonna do! Don't don't put this man to death! He is an innocent man! The tragedy is that Pilate still rejected the Lord Jesus, although his loved one appealed to him not to do so. How many folk there are who continue to reject Jesus. Although families and friends urge them to turn to him and to respond to him, and to receive him. But then again, Pontius Pilate rejected the Lord Jesus and thought that in doing so he had got rid of him. Do you know that was one of the biggest mistakes ever made in his life! You cannot get rid of Jesus Christ that easily. You cannot do it. One poet wrote a poem called the Hound of Hell in which he pictures Francis Thompson, the na name of the poet, in which he he pictures Je , er God pursuing men and women down through the corridors and labyrinths of time, down throughout their life, relentlessly pursuing and no matter how much you try and give God the slip, there he is, he will pursue you, he will seek you out, he desires to to ca , for you to come to know him, and you cannot get rid of God that easily! You cannot chase Jesus Christ away easily. He is not easily put off. You see, in the first place, he is the one who takes the initiative to seek you. Jesus said the son of man is come to seek and save that which is lost. He takes the initiative to seek you. To start pursuing you. To start drawing you to himself. And he is the one, and he alone is the one who will take the initiative to call it off. There's that very, very solemn warning back in Genesis for God says, my spirit will not always strive with man. It's God who stops us striving. You don't, you don't put God off. You don't scare him away. It's God who takes that initiative to withdraw from seeking you. And Pilate made this tremendous mistake, he thought he had got rid of Jesus. And the gospel said the record in which Pilate tried to escape the responsibility that was thrust upon him. First he sent him to the Jews to be tried as they said, then he sent him Herod then Pilate thought, if I scourge him that will satisfy them, let me just give him a beating and the folk will be happy and it'll be alright. But that didn't work either. Finally he delivers him off to be crucified, and he takes that bowl of water and washes his hands thinking he's absolved from guilt, but you don't get rid of Jesus that easily. It takes more than a bowl of water to get rid of Jesus Christ seeking you out to follow him and to receive him. Pilate knew that it would be a sin against God. He knew that it's a sin against himself, his own soul, he knew that what he was doing was against justice, it was against the advice of his wife, it was against everything within him and yet he still pursues this, this cause of having Jesus put to death. He tried therefore, to evade the issue but he couldn't do it. He still has Jesus on his hands the position is the same for every non-christian, for every unconverted person you still have Jesus on your hand you can't get rid of him that easily. You can blot him out of your mind for a while, you can go your own way and forget about him, you cannot get rid of Jesus Christ and his claims that easily. You must do something with Jesus. Jesus himself said, while he was here on earth, that, it's in Matthew chapter twelve and verse thirty,he who is not with me is against me . You're either for me or you're against me, you can't be neutral. Then Pilate rejected the Lord Jesus, we find for very unworthy reasons. After all, any reason that leads us to keep Christ out of our hearts is an, is an unworthy one. What were the motives? What were the reasons that prompted, and motivated Pilate? Well, undoubtedly, there was first of all the love of position he was after all, the ra , the governor, he was the representative of Rome and he loved his position! And the folk had said to him, if you release this man you are no friend of Caesar's. What about your position? And that's still something that comes again and again when men and women, when you and I are confronted with the claims of Jesus what about this? What about the job? What about the position? What about your friends? What about your family? What will folk say? We find that there is no reason that stands scrutiny for our rejecting Christ, they all crumble. Bring the very best reason you can against why you should not accept Christ and once you put it under the ga , under the scrutiny it just disintegrates. It's worthless. And there no reason, there is no worthy reason, there is no valid reason that you or I or any other person on the face of the earth has for rejecting Jesus Christ. He may well have been scorned, he may well have lost his job bad word may have got back to Rome, they may have sent the telegrams back to Caesar telling him all about Pilate, but it wasn't sufficient reason for him rejecting Christ. Another is, linked with that, it's the fear of men, and here again, we see that with Pilate, he lacked the courage of his own convictions and in this respect this story's absolutely up-to-date in the vast majority of cases people who say no, I will not receive Jesus it is not because of so called intellectual doubts, that is only an excuse, because his reasoning his far above our reasoning. The real reason is I am frightened what folk will say, or I do not want to give up this particular habit of mine. A wise man back in Proverbs, he reminds us and he puts this solemn warning, and he reminds there and he says i in Proverbs, chapter twenty nine and verse twenty five,the fear of man brings a snare . Do you know it is possible because of the fear of people around you, the fear of your peers, the fear of what men may say, of what your family will think, of what your work mates might say about you, it is possible to allow that fear to send you to hell. Nobody on a natural level is that stupid! Nobody on a natural level is that foolish. And we take out contingency plans fo for various things, you'll take out insurance, er against your house being broken into, against there being a fire or something else, you'll take out insurance policies, or or assurance policies against your life, so that your dependants will be provided for, you'll take out pe , er pension plans so that in your old age when you're not working you'll have sufficient money to live on. We make these plans on an natural level, and yet, we do not plan for the most important event of all time, when we will stand before God and he will ask that question, what have you done with Jesus that is called the Christ? And we make no plans for that. What are you gonna say then? I didn't think it mattered. I was frightened what people would say. I was concerned for my family. I thought that I would ridiculed. I couldn't give up this. I couldn't stop that. There is no reason, there is no valid reason for rejecting Jesus. Pontius Pilate, also he rejects the Lord Jesus and in doing so he hated himself for it. Let me read you the, what happened immediately after Pilate's evil deed, after he had delivered Jesus to be crucified. Pilate standing on, you imagine knowing that he has delivered up an innocent man, knowing that he's delivered to death someone who is not guilty of death, knowing that he is the son of God, the King of the Jews, listen to what he says and th listen to what he's watch, he's seeing rather and the soldiers of the governor took Jesus into the praetorium and gathered the whole Roman cohort around him and they stripped him and put a scarlet robe on him, and after weaving a crown of thorns they put it on his head and reed in his right hand, and they kneeled down before him and mocked him saying, hail! King of the Jews! And they spat on him, and took the reed and began to beat him on the head, and after they had mocked him they took his robe off and put his garments on them and led him away to be, to crucify him. And Pilate standing there watching in awe, knowing that he is the one who is guilty for allowing this to happen hating himself for it! Why did I do it? Why didn't I have the courage to release him? As Pilate stands watching, watching Jesus being humiliated, watching him being tormented that thought going through the mind, I am responsible for this, I am guilty of it, I have done it! Course he hated himself for it, just as every person who is not a christian will hate themselves because they had, anything to do with that crowd who had cried out, away with him! Crucify him! How solemn it is to take sides with the enemies of Christ. Oh, but you say, I I wouldn't do a thing like that! Remember what we read, what Jesus said? If you're not for me, you're against me. You can't be indifferent. You can't be on middle ground, there is no neutral territory. You know, very often when you go from one country to another you go through an area of re , what is called no man's land, you come through from one frontier and then you've got a distance and you come to the next frontier that doesn't exist as far as accepting or rejecting Christ is concerned. There's one simple boundary and that's all there is to it. You're either for me, says Jesus, or you're against me. You're with me, or with my enemies. It's as simple, as straightforward as that. And to reject Jesus is to take sides with his enemies. It's to say with the crowd, away with him! Crucify him! We will not have this man! I will not have him to rule over me! And finally, Pilate rejected the Lord Jesus, and in so doing he sealed his own doom. Not so very long after this incident Pilate was removed from Jerusalem, and in A D thirty six he committed suicide. Anyone, whether it was Pilate then, or you or me today, who rejects and crucifies Christ afresh, seals his or her own doom. Listen to what Jesus himself says in John, chapter three in verse eighteen,he who believes in him , that is in Jesus,is not judged. He who does not believe has been judged already because he has not believed in the name of the only son of God . And over in the last verse in that chapter it says,he who believes in the son, has eternal life but he who does not obey the son, shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him . Just as surely as, Jesus had an interview with Pilate in the judgement hall so now he has an interview with you and with me. Do we crown him? Or do you crucify him? Do you accept him? Or do you reject him? Do you welcome him? Or do you spurn him? The story is told of one time Archbishop of Paris, who with two or three other of his friends as young lads they went into the great cathedral there at Notre Dame Two more drivers fall victim to highway robbery. And a millionaire every week in the new national lottery. As the Chancellor of the Exchequer approaches the key judgements that will shape next month's budget, he gets better than expected news on the state of the economy. The latest figures show that steady growth continued over the last three months and that as a whole, the economy is growing at a rate of two and a half percent a year. The figures go some way to counter fears that the recovery is faltering, but they reveal also that not every sector of the economy is gaining. In manufacturing, output is falling. Fears that the recovery might be running out of steam now seem to have been over done. Fuelled by stronger high street sales, Britain's service sector, two thirds of the economy, is reporting faster growth. Retailers like the House of Fraser's Army and Navy stores have seen rising consumer demand. Business is certainly picking up er not only in Central London but erm throughout the entire country. And we've noticed that up to and over the last two to three weeks, not only because our sale is on er but we're far more confident about the general economy. But while the services sector is strengthening, factory output fell in the last three months. The firm that makes the ties sold in the country's department stores, is optimistic about prospects at home. But with more than two thirds of its products sold abroad, the company's concerned at the continuing downturn in its export markets. We see the U K certainly coming out of recession and we are something like twelve percent up on same time last year in the U K. Having said that, the E C is well over twenty percent down on same time last year. The economies total output, its Gross Domestic Product, expanded for much of the eighties and peaked in the middle of nineteen ninety. In the recession that followed, output fell steeply, levelling off last Summer. Since then production has started to climb back and the government now estimates that in the last three months, the economy grew by nought point six percent. Overwhelmingly the most important things is that these figures show that across the economy as a whole, er economic activity is on a path of steady but unspectacular growth. Opposition politicians were unimpressed by the government's claims. These figures show that manufacturing output, far from growing, is beginning to shrink again and that the growth rate is not enough to start seeing serious inroads into our high level of unemployment. The evidence out there in the real world and I'm a London MP is that people are not yet certain that there is a secure economic recovery. They hope it's there, they believe it may be there, they see a faltering sign here and there, but they need other encouragement. The Chancellor is gradually receiving a clearer picture of the state of the economy as he prepares next month's budget. The figures suggest a gentle recovery is continuing, but at a rate that's unlikely to create many jobs. It remains uncertain whether it's a recovery that could sustain a tax increase on November the thirtieth. Gerry Baker, B B C News. Scotland Yard say, one man is still being questioned in connection with the murder of police constable Patrick Dunn in South London on Wednesday. Three other men have been released on police bail. The shooting of P C Dunn has again highlighted the problems faced by the police and prompted calls for the Home Secretary to reject the Sheahy proposals on police pay and conditions. The tributes to P C Patrick Dunn mounted today in Cato Road, the Clapham Street where he died, as the police investigation of his killing and that of a suspected drug dealer in the house opposite, continued. Barry Critchley another community P C normally patrols Cato Road. On Wednesday when the radio call came, P C Dunn went instead because he was nearest. P C Critchley on his old bike just like the dead officer, seems from another age, far from the violence of modern London. We deal with erm a lot of domestic problems. Erm all sorts of general problems I mean I get people come up to to me complaining about their rheumatism. I get people come up to me, can I unblock their toilet, it's just er a a general thing. You become part of the community. There was more gun violence in the capital yesterday, a man apparently involved in drugs shot dead at Shepherd's Bush. For a police force still largely unarmed it highlights fierce opposition to the Sheahy proposals on police reform now before the Home Secretary. They claim their work in dealing with violent crime, cannot be linked as Sheahy attempts, to other jobs. The Home Secretary in East London was reported this morning to have serious doubts over fixed term contracts and performance related pay, though he wouldn't confirm this. The police service themselves recognize that there has to be a a need for change that they have to be brought up to date er and er I think you'll see when I a announce my decisions on the Sheahy report er that er I am taking the need to er reform the police service, very seriously indeed. Police campaigners including Tory MPs say Sheahy could run into political trouble. I think that parliament will want to look very carefully at the proposals he makes and if parliament is not happy with those proposals then I'm sure it will try and persuade the government to modify them. Police and their supporters say officers nearing contract renewal, might feel compelled to boost their arrest records, and they wonder how the work of Barry Critchley and the late Patrick Dunn, low key potentially dangerous, can be measured against higher profile colleagues. Laurie Margolis, B B C News. Police are investigating two more cases of carjacking bringing to four, the total number of such robberies in the past week. In the latest incidents, an antiques dealer was attacked at Keele services on the M Six shortly after midnight and yesterday a woman driving along a quite country road in Chepstow had her car rammed by a gang wielding baseball bats. Last nights theft took place when an antiques dealer stopped to change a wheel on his car on the hard shoulder of the M Six near the Keele service station in Staffordshire and was attacked by three men who escaped in a white van. Their haul, mainly of silver, is valued at a hundred thousand pounds. I though me time had come to be quite honest. I mean, how frightened were you? Petrified. No ifs and buts about it. What specific threats did they make to you sir? Well with a knife sort of stuck under your chin. And with marks to prove it, that er just sort of one false move and my job with life was over. Police say the raider's van and the antique dealer's car were both seen at a service station near Manchester last night, so the crime could have been planned. That is a possibility we're looking at, it's a possibility that it may be an opportunist crime. A few hours earlier Mrs Valerie Williams was robbed of her firm's wages on a quite road in South Wales when masked men overtook her in this stolen car and forced her to stop and then rammed her vehicle from behind with another car. Already back at work today, Mrs Williams said she hadn't had time to be frightened. On reflection though, so unexpected a crime in a country area made her deeply worried. Very concerned about the breakdown of law and order in the country which is very serious I feel at the moment. You're not safe to go anywhere or do anything. Earlier this week in Surrey, a businessman's wife was beaten and robbed of seventy five thousand pound's worth of jewellery after being attacked in her sports car on the M Twenty Five. And a businessman in Middlesbrough threw eight thousand pounds to masked raiders who rammed his car. Police today investigating the robbery in South Wales, say the increasing number of crimes against motorists could be copycat cases. That is quite possible when you get er this type of crime happening er nationally. It always ferments the idea in criminals minds that they might like to have a go at something like that themselves. This recent police video reflects the increasing number of opportunistic thefts from drivers in heavy urban traffic. And although the police say that crimes against motorists are still relatively rare, all drivers should be on their guard. Mike Smart, B B C News. The Northern Ireland Secretary Sir Patrick Mayhew has condemned what he called the brutal and loathsome murder last night of the director of a Londonderry building company. The I R A said they killed John Gibson because his company did work for the security services. The I R A gunmen lay in wait outside Mr Gibson's home in the quietest of suburbs North of Belfast. Three shots were fired as he stepped out of his car. The fifty one year old tried to crawl back to the house but collapsed. Neighbours spoke of a quiet man who spent most of his spare time working for charity. And to shoot a person down even because of his work is what sort of people are these anyway? These are murdering thugs . These are murdering thugs. Mr Gibson was a director of the construction company Henry Brothers in which carries out contracts for the security forces. That's enough for the I R A to have made him a target, five employees of the firm have now been killed since nineteen eighty five. It is a time of relent =ime of relentless violence in the province as the I R A continues its killings, Loyalist paramilitaries have also been carrying out almost one attack a day. Yesterday gunmen opened fire on a taxi queue, no one was injured but paramilitaries have said mass murder of catholics is their objective. There are now up to twenty Loyalist death squads in activity and it is quite clear that no circumstances given the intensity of their attacks, the geographical spread of their attacks and the reckless abandon of their attacks, there is a very substantial risk to the entire catholic community. It is killing on both sides, Mr Gibson's death is the fifty first this year, lives taken, families destroyed. Matthew , B B C News, Belfast. A surgeon and his wife who's also a doctor have been jailed for nine and three months respectively for repeatedly assaulting their housemaid. Leicester Crown Court heard how Ramesh and Radah had treated Cindy who comes from Trinidad, like a slave. Drs Radah and Ramesh were held in high regard in their professions for their ability to care for others. He had just qualified as a surgeon. But their caring didn't extend to their maid who they regularly beat and bullied at their home in Lincoln. Thousands of domestic servants like Cindy have been allowed into Britain under a concession in the immigration act which permits foreign visitors to bring in their own staff. But Miss could only work for the doctors. At their small home she worked nineteen hours a day, seven days a week, and was paid seventy five pounds a month. The only legal right she had was to complain about the beatings when she could stand them no more. And I was afraid that whatever I say would go back to the and if they hear this they will punish me. Did you try and get away at all or Erm if I tried they would have caught me so I just stand still and don't scream or cry because I'll get some more. The barristers told Leicester Crown Court the doctors had been punished enough. His medical career is over, her prospects of working again are remote and their family is breaking up. Judge David told them, their lives had been devoted to the relief of pain and suffering but in this case they chose to inflict considerable pain on a young woman in their care, isolated by their way of life. The judge sentenced Mrs to three months in prison, her husband received a nine month sentence. Tonight Cindy said she thought the doctors should have been sent to prison for a longer term. Tony Roe, B B C News, Leicester. The High Court has rules that life prisoners who are sent to mental hospitals are still serving their sentences and can count the time they serve in hospital towards their parole. The case was brought by Michael Hickey, one of the men convicted of the murder of the newspaper boy Carl Bridgewater. It could result in his early release. Commonwealth leaders meeting in Cyprus have agreed to set up a special mission to lobby key capitals holding out on agreement on the GATT trade negotiations. It seems Mr Major and the Australian Prime Minister Paul Keating, will be members of a team hoping to persuade other leaders that completion of the GATT talks by December the fifteenth is imperative. There's little doubt the Commonwealth sees France as the main target of the mission, but as a mainly English speaking organization, its influence on President Mitterand may be limited so the French speakers among them will be pressed into service. Mr Major, leading a group of Prime Ministers to make the announcement, was aware of the need to engage France rather than antagonize it. And even the sometimes acerbic Australian Prime Minister was watching his tongue. The point of the delegation is to impress upon er selected countries, the importance which a representative group like Chogram Chogram believes er is important. The leaders say they'll decide exactly where to send their mission during informal discussions this weekend. But the Prime Minister believes Commonwealth acting together, must be heard. Countries from every part of the globe, of all sizes, developed, developing, rich poor, all see a practical advantage in concluding this round this year. I think that is both a substantial amount of peer pressure and also the clearest possible indication that there is an expectation right around the world that people will put the communal benefit of a GATT agreement, before purely domestic interests. This decision represents something of a final throw. The Commonwealth believe that there has to be an agreement before December the fifteenth, very little time to close such a complicated deal. But whether the French will be any more amenable to being ganged up on in this fashion remains to be seen. Brian Hanrahan, B B C News, Cyprus. The time is six fifteen and still to come, supermarket chiefs hit out at cross channel shoppers. They say cheap beer imports are hitting the government's pocket and they want beer taxes here to be frozen. And John Major's horse, his gift from Turkmenistan finds a stable at last. The supermarket giant Tesco is urging the Chancellor to freeze the tax on beer in next month's budget. It says cross channel shoppers importing cheap beer from France are already costing British off licences and supermarkets nearly five hundred million pounds a year. And if the price of beer goes up, the worry is more shoppers will go abroad for their beer. Imported beer down from fifteen pounds a pack to under ten pounds in this South of England supermarket. Tesco's having to slash priced to compete with French stores. Day-trippers to Calais can load up with lager for a third of the price here. Higher excise duty accounts for most of the difference, stores like Tesco reckon it's losing them sales of half a billion pounds a year. And it could get worse if the duty rises in the budget next month. If duty were to be put up in the budget, then the distortion of the market would be greater than it already is. It is already working to the disadvantage of the Exchequer some four hundred million pounds a year of lost tax revenue. It will affect jobs in British brewing and long term, it may affect jobs in British retailing. Tesco's problem is what's bound to happen when you have a single European market but not economic union. That means that tax rates on products are different in every country. The number of cross channel shoppers has already risen by forty percent this year since restrictions were lifted. France is in the depths of recession so the Burghers of Calais love this influx of free spending English shoppers. The trade is booming er there's a lot of er of people coming across as you know and we estimate that there are in the region of er three million peop er British people coming a year in Calais. At this hypermarket more than half the booze sales are to English shoppers, they come from as far away as Yorkshire to stock up for the Christmas part season. How much have you bought? Er fifty six, fifty eight cases. Is that all for yourself? Yeah. We're very greedy. So how much have you spent and how much do you think you've saved? Spent about a grand or so. Right. So you're gonna sell th some of this to your friends when you get back? No. We come over before the Summer, before the barbecues, Yeah. then come over before the Winter for the Christmas. Thanks to the English invasion, this French store has become the biggest seller of beer in the whole country. At the moment the Mammoth store in Calais sells more beer and wine especially beer, than any other because of the English. But Customs and Excise reckon that not all those sailing back with van-loads of beer are planning to consume their booty at their own parties. They're convinced some of it's smuggled in for resale. Over a hundred prosecutions are pending. Iain Carson, B B C News. The Church of England is to face a legal challenge to its decision to allow the ordination of women. The General Synod of the Church of England voted last November to allow women priests but the Church Society which opposes the move has won permission for a High Court hearing. It claims that female ordination is a fundamental change in Anglican doctrine that can be brought about only by act of Parliament. Air accident investigators are conducting and inquiry after and Air Malta plane landed on a taxiway at Gatwick Airport earlier this week. It narrowly missed the terminal building and it was only luck there wasn't another plane or vehicle on the taxiway. The incident was almost identical to a similar mix-up which happened six years ago. And once again it happened when an airline pilot became confused by Gatwick's three parallel strips of concrete. These are the main runway, and emergency runway normally used for taxiing purposes and a small taxiway. On Wednesday night the main runway was closed for maintenance and flights were switched to the emergency runway. So all other aircraft movements went to the taxiway with its distinctive central green lights. For some unknown reason, Air Malta flight four four one mistakenly landed on the small taxiway. It flew within two hundred feet of Gatwick's South terminal buildings and could easily have hit other aircraft or vehicles. Air Malta's senior captain who today was flying a Gatwick simulator said he was surprised by the incident. I was astonished and er I knew that there were there was a similar incident in Gatwick and erm I knew that our crew were quite er highly trained and highly experience on the European routes and Gatwick especially we have very frequent flights to Gatwick. Besides questioning the pilot, air accident investigators will also want to talk to air traffic controllers and to the Civil Aviation Authorities airport safety experts. They'll want to know why it is that Britain's second busiest airport has once again come perilously close to disaster. Christopher Wain, B B C News. The Heritage Secretary Peter Brooke says Britain will be creating millionaires every week when the national lottery starts at the end of next year. He's appointed Peter Davies the deputy chairman of the Abbey National to run the scheme. Mr Davies' first task will be to operate the bidding process to run the lottery which could become the biggest in the world. Bingo's booming in Wood Green, this afternoon three hundred and fifty punters were chancing their luck. The average Briton spends two hundred pounds a year on gambling, but only thirty six pounds on charity. The government hopes half the nation will take part in its lottery, giving people a flutter and financing good causes. The idea would go down well here. Yes it would I'm a big gambler and I go into any gambling. It's a game of chance innit I mean you pay your money, you you you come here to lose but if you win it' a bonus. I mean and everybody's looking for that dream amount aren't they. And with the lottery you're getting the little bit nearer. And would you do the lottery? Oh I don't know about that cos I've got to understand it haven't I. The bank executive named as head of the lottery will decide which business consortia gets to administer it. It could have a turnover of four billion pounds a year with weekly prizes of fourteen million pounds. Our er primary objective in setting it up er is of course to to get money to to good causes and and on a on a large scale, Certainly certainly in in terms of er the prizes er on on the on my forecasts my my conservative forecast, there's ample opportunity for there bei for there to be a milli a millionaire every week. If an entry coupon costs a pound, half will go in prizes, then charities, arts, sport and heritage get their cut as will the millennium fund, earmarked for major projects like new museums. The tax man will get a large slice leaving the rest for contractors to pay for administration and potentially massive profits. People could fill in forms in shops or supermarkets, choosing random numbers which would be scanned and fed to a central computer with the results announced live on a weekly T V spectacular. Here at the Department of National Heritage, ministers believe a national lottery will produce cascades of money. In Peter Brooke's words, a flutter for the punter and a bonanza for good causes. Wesley Kerr, B B C News. The international trading company Lonrho and the Al Fayed brothers, the owners of the Harrods company House of Fraser, have settled their long running row over the ownership of the Harrods store. Both said cooperation was a better recipe for long term benefits to their respective companies. A committee of MPs is to conduct and urgent inquiry into the running of the Child Support Agency, the organization set up earlier this year to track down absent fathers and extract maintenance payments. in its first six months the agency has handled half a million cases, but there've been hundreds of complaints about the way it operates. Police Sergeant Dick Howard, here with his second family is typical of the angry ex husbands protesting at new maintenance orders. The courts had set the sum he should pay for his child by his first marriage at seventeen pounds fifty. Now the Child Support Agency says he'll have to pay a hundred pounds a week. His ex-wife and child and her second husband have been living on benefits for a year. That hundred pounds represents one fifth of his income which the agency thinks is fair but he doesn't. I feel really angry I mean I'm you might say because of my job that I I ought to be law abiding but I am a law abiding person and i like to think that I would go along with all all the laws because they are they are brought in for the benefit of all. But law should be fair and just and this cannot be. Ex-husbands are holding protest meetings, MPs postbags and newspaper columns have been crammed with such cases. hardly surprising given the huge number of people affected. In two years time, the agency will have a case load affecting some ten million people, one fifth of the population. The agency is in a belligerent mood, fighting off what they regard as a male backlash. Many men have regarded the payment of maintenance as optional. Not as an ordinary everyday obligation. They have also felt that if they make a payment at all, that they're fully meeting their obligation, whatever the level of that payment. Or that they are in some way virtuous. The agency says fathers were paying much too little, ninety percent of the mothers are living on social security, so are be definition far poorer than their ex-husbands, and that the formula always leaves the second family better off than the first. Average maintenance is running at fifty pounds a week. The agency's been accused of targeting richer fathers who already pay something to meet its five hundred and thirty million pound target in benefit savings. But they deny it and say that in well over half the cases they've taken on, the fathers were paying nothing. Vociferous fathers have been making the running. Less has been heard from mothers for many of whom maintenance is their only chance of getting off benefit. I'll be able to guarantee that money coming in, even when i go back to work. It'll make the difference between me going back to work and not being able to go back to work. The fathers most justified grievance is the suddenness of the new demands on their income. MPs are getting letters complaining that fathers may have already taken on commitments they can't get out of and they were only expecting to pay whatever the courts had fixed. It is they say, unfairly retrospective. However the agency says they'd always intended to make a radical redistribution of wealth between fathers and their first families. Polly Toynbee, B B C News, Westminster. A home has finally been found for the horse John Major was given as a birthday present eight months ago. The animal was a gift from the president of Turkmenistan. But British officials had no idea what to do with it. Now the Queen's household cavalry have offered to look after the horse and it'll be transported to its new home early next year. For months, British diplomats have been wondering what to do with this thoroughbred stallion, an official present to the Prime Minister which has so far caused him nothing but embarrassment. Today though Her Majesty's ambassador to Moscow visited Maxat the horse and announced that a home has been found for him at last in the Queen's household Cavalry. I don't know precisely who's going to be who's going to be using it. It won't be one of the great parade horses because it's not quite big enough but I am sure there will be lots of people who will be looking forward to riding it. It was President authoritarian ruler of the former Soviet republic of Turkmenistan who gave the stallion to John Major. Downing Street couldn't turn down this gift horse for fear of offending the President but at the same time, they had nowhere for him to go so since March, Maxat, a champion racehorse, was stuck in these Turkmen stables waiting impatiently, getting flabby and fractious. But now the household cavalry have said they'll look after him. Theirs was one of dozens of offers Downing Street received to help Maxat since his plight was first publicized by the B B C in the Spring. For the next four months the Prime Minister's horse still has to be kept in Quarantine in Moscow and in London, Then finally John Majors will get the birthday present he never really wanted in the first place. Ben Brown B B C News, Moscow. But we won't see the galloping major. Tonight's main news again. New statistics show the economy is continuing to grow. The government says it's prove the recovery isn't faltering. Labour says manufacturing is still suffering. As investigations continue into the killing of P C Patrick Dunn, three men have been released. And two more drivers have fallen victim to the robbery becoming known as carjacking. The next national news is the Nine O'clock News, but from Moira Stewart and from me, good evening and have a peaceful weekend. And er the result of all of that has been that the current development programme scheduled which we have supplied to the committee is probably about as fast as the programme is capable of running. First flight still going to be in April. We are confident it will be in April, yes. And will that aircraft be less capable in its first flight than you'd originally hoped? Erm it is always been planned that the this er release of the flight control system will be phased through five steps and the capabilities at first flight are more or less what we had been planning er right from the outset. The cost is going to be some three thousand four hundred million I think er t to the U K. That's er e gone up by about thirteen percent four hundred million roughly, er over the original estimate. Half of that is due to programme reorientation because of the extension of the programme by two years as I understand it, can you spell out what those costs are and are we having to pay more because Germany wants to slow the programme down? Perhaps I can ask Mr Perry to er fill in the details on cost . yes erm Mr Trotter er that er apportionment of the four hundred and fifty million between er the effect of programme re-orientation and other factors. Can I just say that I had figured four hundred million it is in fact four fifty. Four fifty million, sorry, four fifty million erm between programme re-orientation and other factors, was an apportionment we made er back in the er first part of nineteen ninety three and in the light of later information I think we would revised that now erm we are still negotiating with the contractors on the revised contract price and we do not have definitive costs yet but in fact the costs increased as a result of the rescheduling of the programme directly should be quite modest. There are some unavoidable costs er on that account, particularly on the engine programme where delays to the aircraft programme which result in extra costs on the engine side, are the customer's liability, erm but the main increase in cost is actually in the equipment area and results I think, from the fact that the equipment prices turned out to be higher than was originally estimated at the start of the programme and also the fact that U K industry won a higher work share on equipment that we had originally been entitled to and budgeted for and lastly the point you mentioned that Germany has withdrawn from some parts of the requirement and that made certain equipments non-common and we have had to take a larger share of the costs of those equipments than originally planned. Okay. Can you spell out how our share of the cost has increased because our share of the work has increased because I thought presumably the bill was still divided proportionately between the countries. No the the bills are met by er on the territorial funding basis so basically we pay for the work done in the U K. From which we will get the benefit presumably when production's done. In in in in er general terms. Whether the production work sharing is something that is still to be decided er at the start of that phase but on the equipment, we were er originally entitled to thirty three percent of the common equipment er when we last gave evidence to the committee the U K work share for equipment stood at some thirty six percent of those that had been selected at that time. We have succeeded since in getting it down to something just over thirty four percent now er and erm therefore we are not much above our original work share but each percentage point of equipment costs us about ten million pounds extra. somewhat concerned at the er production sharing is not yet to be agreed er i i i is there a formula that is going to be applied? Yes indeed erm the the general M O U states that er work share will be proportionate to the off date that each nation takes. So it's dependent upon the finalisation of the orders. Indeed numbers But w what about er er further increases the there seem to be some suggestions that we may find the three thousand four hundred million going even higher. I prefer not to speculate about that er at this stage,particularly in public session we are tha that is the current estimate of project cost. We are waiting for a new quotation from Eurofighter for their part of the programme erm but in advance of receiving it I'd not rather not speculate as to which impact it might have on the project. I think we might come back to that Mr session and see if we can extract a little more that way. I is there anything you can tell us about the additional costs of er er increased specifications, there have been some increases as well minor reductions. Is there any specific item you can spell out for us that additional costs. I'm not aware of Well any increase in specification some, some of the programme has been re-orientated. I think I I can now understand Yes the the point er er that you're making Mr Trotter. W in the estimates will you have will have received, we have made provision for some additional costs that were not covered by the original quote, the new weapons for example, were not covered in the original quote so they will be covered in the new programme cost . That's in the three thousand four hundred figure. Yes But can we . to some degree but not all and you know in in due course we will provide you with a full breakdown of this, exactly what is in and what isn't in. I think there's only one other point which I'd I'd like to make and that concerns the the programme re-orientation and the cost implications of that er one aspect of programme re-orientation which we've been conscious of is the need to preserve the delivery dates of the first production standard aircraft to the Royal Air Force and Italian Air Force in the year two thousand. Now erm when you work back from that date er all the various activities that industry have gotta go through erm you discover that erm the production investment activities er really need to start to some level at some very low level, er later this year. But er the these production investment activities are associated really with production engineering, er very closely aligned with development and erm unless you can do those between now and the end of nineteen ninety five, when we start the P I phase in nineteen ninety six before you can really make any progress you would then have to do a further year and a half of production engineering so in the new quotations Eurofighter are making a case for what they term a development assurance phase, some advance production engineering work starting later this year and going on until the end of ninety five but when we start P I in ninety six, we can start with a bang and make fast progress. Yes thank you. I'll ask Michael Colgan now to take us a bit further down a look at the costs. Erm yes Mr Chairman. Mr Gordon in your erm opening remarks you referred to the fact that erm following the programme re-orientation I think you words were that the full government are now capping their liabilities on the programme. Well now at the outset only seventy three percent erm of the development programme was subject to maximum price. Do I now understand it that the whole programme is subject to maximum price? That is our aim and I'll invite Mr Perry to explain that a little further. Yes as you say there there is a budgetary or pegged element in the original prices and we are, as part of the amendment to the contract to reflect the the revised programme er seeking to place the total of the price for the Eurofighter contract onto a maximum price basis so that there would be no er areas which were not capped. On the Eurojet contract we are seeking to actually convert that to a fixed price at this stage because the programme is more advanced it is reasonable to do that er on the air frame contract probably the uncertainty and the degree of risk at this stage is too high to move to a fixed price at this point. Right, now am I right in saying that that in order to control erm costs erm the elements covered by the maximum price were divided into thirty four packages, is it still thirty four packages? Yes. Erm and ho how many of those do you expect to have agreed as fixed prices at er this stage of of the development? I think er the original plan would have envisaged er a very high proportion of that work having been converted to a fixed price at this point in the programme because according to the original programme not only would the aircraft have flown but we would be entering production investment at this stage and we would there be be fairly confident about the er maturity of the design, however the programme has proceeded much more slowly than originally planned and the amount of er the price that has been converted to a fixed price is indeed quite modest er we have in fact I think only converted eight of the price packages to a fixed price er basis so far. Eight. And it is unlikely in fact now that we we will convert more until er probably nineteen ninety five er shortly before going into production investment. Erm now could you help me on some of the the terminology used because I gather that six of the packages have been or about to be erm priced on the basis of a ascertained costs erm I I just wondered if if that was a sort of euphemism for for a cost plus. What is ascertained ? Essentially it mean that er the work is is more or less complete and therefore we are pricing it on the basis of the actual out turn of costs. So it is essentially a fixed price? Fixed. Fixed cost. Er well costs that are known. Yes right . All uncertainty has been removed now. There's one of the packages been priced on a forward basis, what does that mean/ That means that the work is not yet er complete er and therefore er we are pricing against an expectation of the likely out turn of cost. Right, well am I also right in thinking that as as a rule of thumb, fixed prices should be agreed before a third of the war, of the work is completed? That would be desirable. So erm can you tell us what proportion of the work erm had been completed before prices were fixed erm for those packages that have been an and also what proportion of the work has been completed on those packages yet to be priced. Yes well if we take for example er probably the largest of the packages which we have priced converted to a fixed price basis so far which was package number three, er the tooling for the development aircraft and roll equipment which is erm er forty eight million pounds, that was priced in August nineteen ninety two when eighty percent of that work had been done. Right. Mr Colman if I might add that re- orientation has brought with it the need to change our pricing strategy and therefore rather than going package by package right through the whole thirty four, we're actually trying initially on the engines to go in one bang to price everything on the engines and do it in the next few months. Right. For the er we'd really like to do the same thing for the whole weapons system with Eurofighter also but the the premium that eurofighter might demand to cover the risk . No . Their risk might be more than we would wish to face up to right now. So we have put a marker in the ground and said we are not going to move forward in the production investment phase until we are satisfied that we have a fixed price at that point so we are actually going to cap our liabilities for Eurofighter with a max price for the whole of the remainder of the programme and then we will fix the price and hopefully get some economies from fixing at that point in time before we move forward into the next phase. So unclear . Right Pricing the strategy on the packages that er we have er mentioned is er now changing. Right, now you you've already made it clear to us that about half the increase in development costs are due to increases in the costs of the equipment. The that is so erm how much in total and or proportionally was due to equipments themselves being more expensive than expected and how much because the U K share of costs was higher. Erm I s don't think I can give you a precise answer to that question er off the cuff Mr Colgan, I think we'd have to let you have a note on those figures hmm right, yeah but all these equipments would have been selected by by competition would they? Yes indeed And on a fixed price basis? Yes, yep fine thank you. Yes just before we leave however the question of what occur in my mind how you're going to get from the present position in what appears to be a cost plus basis as we go along to a fixed cost basis and presumably the programme and I in in, are running as it were, are running effectively on the cost plus basis Well . and that accounts of twenty six of the thirty four packages. I I don't wish to, to quibble but is actually a cost minus basis industry is not being paid its full costs for this programme, they've been paid a percentage less than the cost they actually incur. Depending upon the master. a very good piece of negotiation on your part erm that er there must be a reason why industry's prepared to a lost leader. It's is not er er so much a lost leader, it was an incentive negotiated into the contract for industry to make progress. They were, are paid at a certain percentage of their incurred costs well below what it has actually cost them, until they demonstrate an achievement at a particular milestone and then the percentage is increased and er. lost leader . Er well y yes, they'll be running at a loss right through until we eventually fix the prices for the whole programme and er hopefully the if they do it very efficiently we might make some profit. Well er thank you very much. ask, how many equipments have still to be selected? Erm the answer is is very few erm the pilots N B C filter the N B C ventilation supply pack, the I R decoy and flares and the chap munition erm those are the only things that have not yet been selected. There are three equipments that have been selected where the contracts have not actually yet been placed. And is part of the package i d d does the package er of the aircraft when it comes to be served include things like the simulator or is that something that outside the contract and is bid for quite separately. Erm, the simulator will be developed er for this aircraft starting at the same time as we enter the production investment phase. So our, our cost figures for the project will include the simulator but in the next phase of the programme. Currently we have no authority to develop the simulator. Right. Thank you very much. I'll ask John McGuillion now to have a look at the flight control system. Thank you Mr Gordon erm you stated I think in your opening, I think y your opening statement, can you confirm that the two year delay has in gaining the first flight has been in actually gaining the flight control system er certified for flight. Erm the certification of the flight control system is the critical path item and has been for some considerable time. Yes would have been enough. Sorry. Yes would have been enough. Yeah, sure yes. there have been other reasons for delays er up until about a year ago. So what, can you outline the basic technical problem that you've been having with the flight control system? Well er I think as I mentioned at the outset, there's no fundamental technical problem er a system operating broadly in the same way er was designed an an and proved on the United Kingdom's experimental aircraft programme er six or seven years ago, er this particular aircraft, the airfighter two thousand,will employ a rather more er extensive capability in its flight control system. It's not to interface with more systems, there's a lot more software in it and er therefore the companies concerned have got a lot more work to do. I think it's true to say that the design responsible company, Deutsch Aerospace erm has discovered that er there's a lot more software in this system than they had originally imagined and the, their sub contractors of course, they've had to er write various parts of that for them and erm putting together the four elements of the programme has been a lot more complex than anyone imagined. So it's a combination of those factors, if you like, management difficulties, underestimation of the basic task er one or two er hardware problems within the system as a whole. All of those things have led to lead to this kind of delay. Let's go to hardware problems, one or two, what were they? Erm the inertial measurement unit which is er a rather critical piece of equipment er in er a system of this nature initially did not perform to the the full level of requirement that that we we desire so you know, some further development had to be done on that before it would match the system. If you get a hardware problem of any kind here it actually inhibits you from completing the software. You can't verify software until you've got hardware that's capable of operating simultaneously with the software. The that is the kind of knock on effect we experience. So let's look at the er software, who set the specification, who specified the software? Erm the specification was written by Deutsch Aerospace. That's fine, erm what sort I mean what are we, are we back in back in the old problems we've had before with or is it written in something else? Er it's written largely in high level language, yes. Alright that's fine. So Deutsch Aerospace specified it. Yes. And er G E C Marconi, Avionex er were responsible for making sure that it worked within the hardware in the system. Er G E C Marconi's are the leader of a consortium, a four nation consortium of companies that are supplying the computer and are also contributing to the software. So there's four nations writing the software? Yes. Speaking different languages. Yes. is this not a recipe for disaster? Er we have taken every possible precaution to make sure that it's not a recipe for disaster . But it but it's delayed the project by two years. Yes erm and er I think in the course of that we will have learned a lot of lessons the er that's not a facetious comment, it's true er the the first time you write er a software programme erm and any of you will will have experience of this, it takes a long time to get it right. Once you've done it once it actually relatively easy for you to improve it an an and getting it better in the next iteration, erm that is exactly the situation you've got here. G E C, leader of the team, had done something like this before, not quite the same but something like it before, but their partners haven't so there's a training process to be, to be done. Hang on can I stop you. G E C were the leader of the team. Yes. And that's right, they did the software on the experimental aircraft programme. Yes. But the lead company was specifying it was er Deutsch Aerospace. Correct. Why, when G E C had all the expertise to do this and Deutsch Aerospace frankly, does not have a great deal of background in this. Yes well, for the experimental aircraft programme British Aerospace specified what G E C had to do and er a a this time, if you like, Deutsch Aerospace has taken on the equivalent role that B A E had for the experimental aircraft programme and er Deutsch Aerospace are not without experience in flight controls they have . They didn't say that an and but they in this particular area, remember this isn't fly by wire, this is fly by light. You're dealing with a lot more information er and much more complex switching arrangements so I think Deutsch Aerospace had any experience in that at all did they? They have been er working with the North American Rockwell company on the X thirty one programme. Which is comparable complexity and er they have picked up considerable experience from that but, you know, I don't wish here in this committee to in any way challenge the er capabilities or the competence of erm, of Deutsch Aerospace to undertake I'm not this role. I'm not, I'm not doing that, what I'm challenging is the consortiums decision to award the contract to a company who had not been involved in that particular area as opposed to a company that had. Was this purely er the result of trying to keep the percentage share ? Erm, yes that is more or less the case. So beca so because we keeping the percentage share, trying to keep the percentage share down, the aircraft is two years late and two hundred million pounds more expensive. No no let me please finish my original statement. The initial allocation of system design responsibility was negotiated between the four aircraft companies, Deutsch Aerospace, British Aerospace,Carsa and Allenia and against the background of an M O U which said we must share the technology on this project between the four nations and in a particular way which ensures that each of the nations has got access to all the high technology aspects of the project er therefore the individual companies identified those areas of the project, were they felt they either could lead best or wish to lead and for the United Kingdom British Aerospace erm identified the avionics system integration as the major complex task that they would take responsibility for. Deutsch Aerospace took the flight control system. Allenia the utility control system er Carsa,the communications system and so on. So there was that allocation of system design responsibility right at the outset and that determined who would write the specification for what. We then went a stage further and to share the technology established joint teams for each of these major areas, so that er the specification while it was under Dasa's leadership, it was actually done by a joint team which involved expertise from British Aerospace and the other three and er therefore at that time the whole Eurofighter consortium was confident that they were making the best use of the available expertise across the four partner companies, each bringing to the table, their own so that they could go forward on a confident basis. Now er sure the programme has been delayed for all the reasons I I've mentioned. One of the reasons er with the benefit of hindsight, er was that we underprovided test equipment er as you you have mentioned we have software being written in four nations and er it's got to be assembled, somewhere. Each of those four nations er really ought to test the software pretty thoroughly before they hand it over but because er we couldn't afford four lots of test equipment we said right, ship your software out, in tested to only a modest level and it'll all be tested centrally in the Deutsch Aerospace facility. Now that has led to many iterations in the software design and development as the programme has rolled forward because every time you find a mistake, it's gotta go back along the whole test route. For the future of course, we have now erm negotiated with Eurofighter a rather better arrangement, they're setting up a joint team, they're trying to do all the work in one place and they really are now making a lot of progress. So I think the the Eurofighter team has learned from the mistakes that were made originally in the allocation of the work and the way in which it was handled and they are now putting it right. I'm sorry that it's taken so long. That has been the main probem problem with the delay, can you confirm that erm assuming the the software is er is actually rated flight safe er that there are other stages yet, we've still got to integrate the weapons systems, sensors and everything else. So that's all got to happen and can we expect that the improvements that have been made now to the syst to the management of this process will not give rise to the same delays that occurred in getting this system flight safe. Erm I am confident that Eurofighter are grasping the thorny problem now in a very businesslike way and er are making the individual partner companies fully accountable for the systems for which they have design responsibility and this again is a aspect of the renegotiation of the contract which we think is very important and we're determined that er this will happen. And who's bearing the cost of the delay, the two hundred million? Er, for the most part, industry,er we have refused to pay additional costs at the government level which arise as a result of the slip er induced by industry's own er causes. Could we move on to the constant frequency generator problems er how much do by this? Erm the constant frequency generator is not actually delaying the first flight, the, the first aircraft will not have a constant frequency generator on board it. We will introduce the constant frequency generator at prototype number four. Er, the this generator er ran into some development difficulties er a while ago and er Eurofighter chose, say I say, a a standby or an alternative generator which is suitable for the first three prototypes and er again the cost of that particular delay will fall to industry. That's fine. You've told that in your written submission, that supply for the infra-red er infra-red sa er search and track was changed, why? The original supplier er withdrew all his guarantees about the performance of the detector, or indeed his commitment to the delivery schedules, shortly after we had er placed the development contract with the consortium and er the consortium recognised that it could not live with that situation and immediately set to work to find an alternative supplier. They have found one who is prepared to give the guarantees, who is delivering the detector, the detector that is on offer by er sheer good fortune,i is actually now better than the one which erm the consortium had chosen originally. So the bankruptcy of the original supplier was nothing to do with the delay or actually going for another supplier? Wasn't, it wasn't that supplier than went bankrupt, that was another case. We have a, we have a second problem on the infra-red search and track consortium that one of the team members has erm unfortunately hit some financial problems. Have these six specifications for the defences aid subsystems been relaxed? No. Thank you. coming back to the the I R S T supplier. Who does the checking out on the central people who we may place contracts with? Erm the selection er er of er suppliers for the infra-red search and track w that was performed in the first instance by Eurofighter and the procurement organisations are the four Eurofighter partner companies make the checks on the potential suppliers in accordance with a schedule which we, the four governments, have provided to them. So they're carrying out the checks initially on the the capabilities and the financial soundness of the, of the proposed supplier. The this problem with the detector, it's another level of subcontracting down and er if you you're buying a piece of equipment of this kind from a a consortium er essentially you can't dictate to him precisely who he's going to use to supply the components for that system and er it is the problem came to the notice of officials when the consortium came forward and and said look, we we've got these terms in our contract er concerning detection range and so on and er we may not be able to meet those, er so we questioned the reasons and then of course they revealed that they were having problems with the supplier. Er, they were immediately told to go away and put that right and they chose a different supplier. Erm, thank you. Can we now move on, have a look at the production phase last weeks . Yes er on the production phase, can I ask a very general question erm are you satisfied every one of the participants is now totally locked in. Sorry, every one of the? Are the participants totally locked in to the the production of er Eurofighter? Erm,we have er frequent conversations with the other governments at an official level and all the information that we have erm is that the four governments are contending to proceed with the D I and the production phases in the same time scale that I have quoted to the committee today. They last gave that assurance at the Secretary of State level on the tenth of December ninety two and that was a clear assurance given at that time, that each government has a firm intention to proceed with the next phase of the programme. And, to the best of our knowledge, that is still valid though er of course to answer the second part of your question, are they fully locked in. None of us are lock in to this P I and production phases, we will not be locked in until we sign the memorandum of understanding for those phases and that is scheduled for nineteen ninety five. Because er each of the governments er has the domestic political problem and er each government, including our own, is not guaranteed to survive until until the final production stage. Yes Er, so do you you, at a civil service level, as you you are reasonably satisfied all is being done to guarantee we reach the production stage. Yes I am satisfied. On on er on production erm before the costs reductions had been identified, industry had said that the cost of production would actually increase, could I ask by how much it was said it would increase? Er, yes I will invite Mr Perry to address the question of cost. I think that erm the actual position er assured was that industry gave us a quotation in erm April nineteen ninety two which actually was somewhat higher than we'd anticipated, but I'm not sure that industry reyu viewed it as an increase because it was probably the first time they had formally quoted a price. Er, however erm because of the concern about er the overall cost of the programme and the production cost in nineteen ninety two, we required er the companies to undertake studies into ways of reducing the programme cost and it was as a result of those studies, that they came up with a list of potential savings er which in the U K case er could knock fourteen percent off the price that they had quoted in April ninety two. W was the increase er entirely offset by the cost reductions? Erm I I think it is true to say that the, the cost er reduction which they offered brought the price back within what we regarded as the affordability within our defence programme, er the level of affordability. Okay, and one of the cost saving measures er is a more efficient work share ar arrangement, can you give some examples? Well in in general er the original work plan had divided up the production work to share out the technology and this meant that components were being shipped around more than actually they they needed to be or that was economic and it was found that there was the potential to concentrate manufacturers sub-assemblies for each of the major components of the aircraft and subsequently assemble the major components in one country rather than several. For instance, components of the wings were being shipped around between countries, which clearly was not economic. So wh what what changes are being planned then for the er production of the wings? Perhaps I can pick that one up. understand there's some overlap between the U K and Spain on er on that. There, there is er certainly in the development batch aircraft, er an overlap there er and the three companies were involved in the manufacture of the wings. Now there are only two wings on the aircraft and clearly that is not very efficient. So we suggested that for the production phase it might be better if one company was to build one wing and the other company the other er and that's . the third wing. Well yes er, we hadn't thought of that one Mr but maybe we should do that. Er, so i it's er changes of that kind that have been looked at because if you move production work out of one nation into the other to get a nice rationalised allocation of work, you build this wing, you build that wing and so on, you then have got to do something with the minor components to get back to you original erm work share allocation and percentage times. Now we won't know what that work share allocation in percentage terms is, until each nation makes its commitment in nineteen ninety five, to a production buy and that is the time when we will finalised the details of this work share transfer plan. What about the radar, I understand er it takes three hundred days to produce and a hundred days er is believed to be taken up in travelling from one site to another. Yeah, that er little anecdote I I've heard mentioned previously, er the the ray dome erm is erm er currently in the course of development and of course the the four nations each wish to participate in this interesting piece of technology. So the consortium that was doing the development arranged the work between themselves in a way which they themselves considered to be efficient. As it's turned out, it's not efficient because the the ray dome spent a tremendous amount of time moving from one country to the other, there's no doubt about that and before production we would want to see that particular nonsense removed and the whole thing made a lot more efficient, but for one or two development batch ray domes then you know, they'll just have to learn from that lesson. Savings were also intended from what has been described as other productivity improvements. Can you amplify on that please? Erm I I think it's difficult to quote examples off the cuff here er the er British Aerospace for example, I know that erm er the company has planned to introduce cellular manufacturing techniques for some components which will reduce the number of man hours that are devoted to the manufacture of that item an and given a level of throughput will do the job a lot more efficiently. That's the the only example I can recall off the top of my head. British Aerospace moves completely to Germany er a a third savings measure erm will be er from economies in logistics support, can you perhaps Yes. comment on that. Er, yes in the studies in nineteen ninety two er Eurofighter suggested that there could be reductions in the holdings of spares, rolled equipment and support items as a result of the more accurate forecasting which we expect to emerge from the logistics support analysis. So if group captain White has already given you an example of the reduction we've made in in some of our er scalings of those equipment, er it was also suggested by the contractors that economies could be achieved by reducing the number of bases, the extent to which all squadrons should be fully multi role equipped and by contractualising more of the second and third line support, erm, we and the other partners are still considering these proposals in detail er and haven't actually taken decisions yet but there are certainly some possibilities in that area for er economies against the original cost estimate. Yes and the savings are planned er from keener equipment pricing, er how, can you explain, how can this be achieved. Well Will it be through greater competition? The quotations which Eurofighter provided er in nineteen ninety two were based on the equipment option prices which are included in each of the equipment development contracts. Er, they believe er that it will be possible to improve on those prices in negotiation with the suppliers. Perhaps I I might amplify that a little. In that erm just as we've discussed the allocation of work on the airframe between the four nations on m most pieces of equipment there is a an allocation between the four nations and er in in many cases a consortium with the same members has actually won the competitions on five or six different pieces of equipment. So we're trying to encourage the equipment suppliers now to look again at what they have won on business for Eurofighter and perhaps allocate the work between themselves a lot more efficiently so that instead of each one of the four members building a given percentage of the five items, they say right we'll take this one, all of it and we'll build all of it, you take that one, all of it and build that one and so on an and in that way we might be able to er er improve considerably on the costs of production. Thank you er ooh. When one goes for a major adventure like tornado you hope that most of the difficulties are are ironed out, clearly they're not, another set of difficulties emerges. With the benefit of hindsight er could the tornado programme have been made more efficient with the lessons that you've learnt so far, er from er Eurofighter an and secondly, perhaps more difficult, er the lessons you have learned from tornado and certainly from the current project, could they be transferred to other complicated collaborative er project, programmes like cobra and ? Erm, well I I couldn't speak for the latter two programmes cos I don't know enough about the arrangements there but I have got a a fair amount of knowledge on both tornado and Eurofighter. The tornado aircraft was developed under a cost plus environment er contracting environment and erm at the time that was actually the most efficient an and probably the only practical way to do because the the risks inherent in having three partner companies that don't know how the others work, getting together to build a single aircraft, were, were extremely high. So we proceeded on a cost plus basis, also the cost plus environment actually brings the partners together because if there are three of us working on a cost plus contract and I have a problem, my two partners rush to help me because clearly there's some more profit for them, erm if the only difficulty with cost plus contract of course is that unless you have a a real ceiling on the total er costs that you're going to pay, it may keep on rising far higher than you'd ever imagined. Now on tornado the development costs erm I know, exceeded the original expectation by quite a considerable margin but the production costs were much less and overall, taking the two lots together, it turned out to be a good buy. Er, so the lesson we learned from tornado was that we want to try and cap our financial liabilities for the project for the development of it, at a much earlier stage and er drive as tough a commercial bargain as we possibly can. So we embarked on a different commercial strategy, trying to implement that that lesson. It has had considerable benefits, it's had one or two drawbacks and er I think the biggest lesson that we have probably learned so far from the Eurofighter programme, is that we have to be very careful when we make work sharing agreements in future, that er we don't try to drive the work sharing requirement down to too low a level. If we can keep it in broad percentage terms of the total work at the project level, fine, that can be done, efficiently and effectively. But if you say we must share every piece of equipment in those ratios, then you do create management difficulties and the potential for delay and and indeed that can in turn add to costs. So those are the two lessons. Thank you Sir Nicholas . Er, I'm I'm very concerned about the question of these costs. Er, obviously any Ministry of Defence er er contract is a soft touch as regarded by the supplier. You have limited er suppliers who you choose er having heard the figures that you've given us today erm i it seems to me that there is very little control of that expenditure. Now, when you are entering into a contract, and I wonder if you could send this to the to the chairman er your letter er of erm contract because to have a contract which can be varied in its cost always upwards is a very dangerous contract and I would interested to see the contract that is supplied which does not control price. Erm obviously we can er prepare a note for the committee setting out the main features in what I would call our commercial strategy. Erm I would hesitate before offering the chairman or the committee the contract, er the contract for Eurofighter actually runs to thirty four books and it stands about that high and er. Well just send the financial section. And that is probably about thirty percent of it. But erm it is a subject which is er investigated every year by five teams of auditors. We have a team from each of the four nations and we have a team from NATO. Erm Mr Gordon, given the fact that we are running a little short of time I think if you could give us a note on your contractual arrangements then that will take this matter forward and we come back to you if necessary. I'd be pleased to do so Mr Nicholas. Thank you very much erm I have one last question on this item er that I've now lost oh yes it was a erm Mr Perry, you mentioned under the logistics savings that were possible er the potential cut back in R A F bases. I think we've only got four which er this aircraft can fly or for the moment the three tornado F three bases and the one jaguar base er is the ministry says they're looking at cutting back on those? I think er we're in danger of perhaps getting a misunderstanding going here. What we have been talking about in economies and logistics support is reducing the amount of second line base facilities for this aeroplane. How ever many bases the Royal Air Force decides to operate from is a decision which the Royal Air Force can take in due course. But erm the logistics costs are made up from the costs of procuring spares and support equipment largely and er for an aircraft such as this, the amount of equipment required to operate at first line is very low indeed. To maintain the equipment at second line requires quite extensive test equipment and facilities. However in this aircraft we have specified a very high degree of re reliability and if you look at the total number of occurrences for each piece of equipment that are going to require maintenance, it's so low that it doesn't justify the provision of maintenance facilities on every base. So what has been suggested is that er we examine the possibility of centralising the second line facilities that are normally provided on every base and only do that at perhaps two bases. I see thank you, yes that's very helpful that clarifies the position on that and finally I'll ask Michael Colgan to take us into the question of the management systems for the contract. Yes er Mr Chairman we have, at the moment, two intergovernmental management agencies involved in the same building in . First of all we've got N A M A managing the tri-national tornado product project and then we've got N E F M A er handing the er Eurofighter, same notions as the division of Spain. You were talking earlier about er applying the lessons learned here from the tornado programme to Eurofighter, surely the best way of doing so is to involve the same people, they're in the same building. What are the difficulties about amalgamating these two management agencies and just having the one. It might also assist in work share and offset because perhaps if things were getting out of balance on Eurofighter you could actually use the tornado pruject, project and get a greater balance. Far more flexibility surely. Erm well could I deal with the management agency question first an an then perhaps I'll invite Mr Perry to speak on the difficulties in trying to equalise work share of one project with trying to counterbalance on another. The erm management agency that was set up for tornado was structured and manned for that specific task. When we started the Eurofighter programme, we did look at the possibility of expanding N A M A so that it could also conduct the management of the the Eurofighter project. erm One of our buyers, Spain, er was not in favour of that solution because they were not a member of the tornado team and they did not want to see some kind of old boys club er running this project which was very important to them. So it was agreed, right in the beginning that we would establish a separate agency to manage the Eurofighter two thousand programme, but that we would look at the possibility of bringing these two agencies together at as early as possible time and the most expedient way for all concerned. So we have followed that plan and in nineteen ninety we conducted a study as to exactly how this could be done, a er an integrated agency management structure was devised and a plan was er produced which would have resulted in the two agencies merging at the beginning of this year at the start of the what was then planned the D I phase. Er unfortunately the the problems which occurred in nineteen ninety two with the threat of German withdrawals from the Eurofighter two thousand project put a complete stop on the plans to merge the two agencies. Is it still intended it happen. Yes it is . Before the production phase ? It is intended and er all four sets of government officials are resolved to integrate the two agencies in time for the commencement of the P I production phases. So that we will then be operating with a single agency covering both projects. And on the work share. Work share for I think that the idea of offsetting imbalances on on one project er with transfer the work in other is certainly very interesting but of course as far as the erm tornado programme is concerned I think it it is now really far too late because production is over apart from the the second Saudi Arabian order and we are really only working on the manufacture of spares and given that the existing suppliers are all tooled up for those and indeed her are way down the learning curve having produced vast quantities of them, it really wouldn't be economic to transfer any of that work now I don't think. Thank you. Thank you Michael. I think that er what we will do now gentlemen is go into closed session so I will suspend the sitting er while the present public leave us er so the sitting is now. What you do now, is er is er, Robert you can come up and take us through the four steps of selling. However, to make it a little bit more interesting, you can't use your notes. listen to Robert and see how it goes then . Good morning all. Good morning Robert survived this far. Right last Friday we went through the four stages of selling. Now I must admit my first thoughts of it were it really gets my back up for some reason or other. I don't know whether anybody else feels like that but I do. Now having said that and looking at it with an open mind I think it was certainly a very useful day. The structure was there and I think anybody who's been in this business for any number of years, some of us have been in it longer than others er know that you actually need a structure er of that, of that little . If you actually go out there without one and I know you find that eventually that is the structure that you come up with. You start off by asking questions by the if you like and talking to people, getting to know people, getting next to people. Because it's no good just going in there and throwing products at them, it doesn't work, I know I tried it and, so you need to start off by getting close to people, talking to them, finding out all about . You then move on and to find out what you actually can do. find out what they actually need which is the second part and to do that once you do that it's quite easy, as I say once you've actually made contact with them and you are on a friendly basis, you then, you can hold very very useful conversation and let them come over quite naturally. For the second part finding out what their needs are. The third part is perhaps something that erm, we find a little more difficult, I do found that er number two, number three and number four if you weren't careful blends very much into one another and actually then part three as far as I'm concerned actually putting across the benefits is really the main part I think and that really is putting into everyday English what we know as professionals as in technical terms, cos if you go and talk to somebody whatever it is, they haven't got a clue we have, we talk about it all the time and I think the biggest criticism of the insurance industry as a whole is the fact that you don't talk to people in English and that's why it's got such a foot in the door and I think the third part for me really is the most important part of the sales process, relating our cock-ups in English, the benefits the client. That really is I think er the part that I erm are most useful in those . I sold three and one of the reasons why and I think we got tremendous opportunity to develop an enormous part by just going in and speaking to people to explain to and they can relate to write lots and lots of and you can get a good grip we won't do it overnight, it is something you have got to develop. Th that, that to me is the most important part of . not supposed to laugh always got to close people down and make sure we do get the order. So as I say I, I found Friday very useful, I found the er, the renewed routines, although we, I mean we all had lots of problems with the videos, they didn't come out but it didn't really matter because the three of us in our group sat there and very openly, very honestly, and without any personal animosity whatsoever helped each other and that again, as I say very useful and so above all a and I think it's something that I feel very strongly about because we haven't talked to people we've, in English, understandable language about what this is all about. Okay well done, thank you very much. That gave us an overview of Friday and we looked at the individual steps but we know, everybody says yes we ask the business, we came across and to put Gareth, can you take it through and explain what it is, and explain each stage so let's hear from Gareth then. Thank you, oh sorry, erm explain come forward, sometimes you've got to watch for to erm To get back to what method did they come up with ? Well the erm I think sales subject asking questions was erm asking a lot of questions and give an example on the . Give an example on the board how you do that. Er Let's have it in explain . Go on what did you prepare last night thinking. I've already . Oh dear, never mind. Erm erm first one . actually asked in the first place. The first thing to acknowledge make sure to answer er . Good, well done, thank you very much. Okay that was an overview of Friday's successful sales course day and the purpose of is to watch why do you come overflow acknowledge, we probe, we answer and confirm. The temptation to answer the . Now straight on we haven't got the real reason why we are projecting, quite intense you will find you may be like today acknowledge, you probe projection, you answer you confirm the over you overcome that objection. So you'd only look in that projection what will happen, right. It will try and close . There is still, I am sure, of specific areas and you have to highlight those areas and get them out of the way. Right, so that was Friday. What you do today. Before you move on, I'd like to introduce you to Maggie who will be one of the role play customers for today and tomorrow. Maggie is one of the senior advisers, one of the successful senior advisers at the Brecon branch and the chap next to her, who hasn't turned up yet is, is, he was on a Christmas bash last night, he did, he has told me he'd be late, he'll be here oh about ten o'clock- ish. His who is the Branch Manager at the Horsham branch and he'll be the other role play customer. You may see a guy wandering in and out groups and that's a guy called Geoff who works for the British National Corpus and these are the people who are trying to have or produce ten million words of the written word and a hundred million erm spoken words, which is a corpus whereby, er come and look at the English language at some time in the future and identify and listen to some of your and your dialects and what you said so make sure you have lots of input as we've got quite a broad spectrum of different dialects today but he'll be wandering in and out er throughout today. So introductions out of the way,of today is to look at the first two steps of the full centre rota,open and step two the exploration of need which will come if you like after objective is that utilizing easy steps of the full step sound process. So that's what we're going to do today. But before we look at each step in turn. I'll take you back to erm, if you like, the ignition key of the whole sales structure. What starts the whole sales . Bill? Er project sociability. No, no, before that. Sorry. Much before that the whole biblical use that starts the whole sales project going. Yeah, telephone call. Yeah, so we have made our telephone call, we've made an appointment for say seven o'clock in the evening. What time would you get there? What time would you turn up there? Couple of minutes. quarter to. Yeah about quarter to or, give yourself time to get there but why do you want to get there early? Organize yourself, obviously be punctual and be on time so that they can set you up, their clock by you. Yes. Yeah, what else? know what their name is. Yeah. How old they are, anything that might . Yeah, that's right, plan preparation and what else? Suss the area. Yeah, look at the area. Yeah but don't prejudge. Cos you could get there and there could be a four o'clock there and you might think oh my God what a waste of time this is. That could be ever right and the true. It could be yes, rub your hands with glee forty pound back. What a waste of time that was. So don't prejudge,the purpose of being there is to organize yourself, get a prime preparation about the customer, look at the area because that could be part of er your talking point so appropriate thing. So we go, we knock at the door, we assume it's the right address, he comes to the door and what will be the first thing you should say? Yeah, yes,hi, you know with warm both hands , the boat. What would be the first thing, people tend to do when they've met for the very first time? Shake hands . Yes shake hands, shake hands with them. And again. Yeah. What was it the difference between the first hand and the second handshake? You may not see it at the back there a lot stronger, okay. Well a thing called power handshakes, which I thought were the biggest load of gobbledegook until I watched them, a specific chat show host. There is a story don't give the answer away but who would you say is very positive, one of the most aggressive chat show hosts in, say, today could be I T V or B B C? no, Clive no. Gloria . is she,Des , how about Des . Now what tends to happen is, as you know, there is lots and lots of different guests on his chat show and if he feels threatened by them in any way shape or form, what he does he relaxes her,comes in over the top, turns them over, takes them by the shoulder and pushes them into the chair and what he is saying, he is saying, this is my chat show, don't you submit. And the next time I saw that happen was when erm Colin who was the coloured guy during the gulf crisis met erm our m John . Bill Clinton had gone for his inaugurations now President of the United States so John high U K John and he met Colin and we had about two sort of erm semi heads of state battling in the what went on. So, so John came in over the top, Colin put his hands on top line, so John said I'm in charge, over the top, Colin said, no . He said no i'm not and John says, well no actually i'm in charge here and cosy not at all. What it was was I'm in charge, no you're not and if you meet two people give me two people who are both power like pin it on the top as well. What it is you have a bit of a power twist that easy and of course that's embarrassing so when John met Maggie he thought well I can't twist her over and get stuck in there. So what he does now he always comes in over the top , so every time you see John shake hands with anybody he'll always do that and come in over the top actually I'm in charge and he sort of er sort of stamps his authority on the individual. So what I'm saying to you is, don't go in over the top, you know,five, just a normal but a firm handshake because a man would expect it because a weak ha ha handshake can be irritating and the same thing if she is a woman don't be conversational just pinch her hand,give her a firm handshake because you've got about ninety seconds in which to make your first impression and of the ninety seconds about ninety five percent of that time is made through visual images and that can be your dress sense, the way you carry yourself, present yourself, erm body language, don't invade his personal space, only I think about erm I think about twelve, twelve seconds off of ninety seconds, or there thereabouts is spent on what you say. The large proportion of the impressions made to what they see, how they visualize you, so if you look a mess you're backing on the wrong foot, you give, you're getting off to a bad start straight away and be aware of hidden signals that you'll give your emanating . successful sales people, if you have a hole in your shoe, that can be intensely embarrassing and they'll spot that . So the head of a major I can't think of the guy's name and he just had a major acquisition and this guy was mega bucks and the company had gone escalated and then opportunity of this guy, you know, saying what a super guy he was, what an entrepreneur and what he done is, you know, I've had something head, you know, I'm in charge and he put his feet on the desk there and he had a hole in his shoe and s spread across all the papers the next day was this guy with a hole in his shoe and this was a multi million pound corporate er corporate body, he couldn't afford to buy a decent pair of shoes so check your shoes. Women tend to look for three to four things, your shoes, your fingernails, ties and socks, okay so make sure you look the part. Don't wear overpowering aftershave, that says more about your sexuality and sensuality than about your business acumen. overpowering dress . So we set the scene, we look good, we haven't crushed them to death and he's gonna take us into one or two areas either the living room or the study or maybe the kitchen. So if we look at the living room I would say this is our, our living room, right into the hall erm the T V in the corner there settee there so you wander in there, Gill where would you put yourself, where would you sit down? Just there? Yeah okay, Why would you go there ? Because I, I want to sit in the room where they're both gonna be facing not sitting like an odd dog right . Yes . The could be if you pop yourself there, he sits there and she sits there, you're asking him a question, he's not sure, he looks at her, so if you look you can't see what you're doing, you want to be able to maintain eye contact with them both, yeah, one of the effective ways, well they're going to be aware of the layout of the living room, this is their , this is their stage. As we come across, you know, slippers there and a hot steaming mug of tea embarrassed in there. All of a sudden you're infringing upon his his stamping ground, his authority and he won't take it too kindly. According to if you change the settee, you are knocking the T V because on about two calls er last week, the T V never went off. So what you're doing is to take the focal point away from them and they're having to look at you if you know what I mean. What so you would go there then? I would go there, simply because of the situation where the T V never is switched off. tend to try and get rid of the T V because you don't want the distraction in the background. Spoil never switched it off. We need it now, we need, we are a nation that needs continual visual stimulation. Take the T V away and conversation collapses and dies and in a survey a former German couple, they took away lots of and they were nearly suicidal and they were nearly murdering the wife, the husband and the children because they hadn't got the continual visual simulation a picture paints a thousand words, this is where we have O H P. This is where we have erm er as opposed to standing here and delivering erm an otherwise. If we are gonna start switching off a heavy night the night before and you need visual stimulation to get you up and . So personally I'd be satisfied you are there or there. Well effective ways of starting putting your authority wh where you wanna go is by using the . There is no right or wrong way and personally I always take a briefcase with me because there you have the tools of my trade in there. If you feel comfortable going in second one of these and these alone, that's fine by him do what we did come in the first place, you can go in, take your briefcase pop it down there, this says to them,this is where I'm gonna work from, is that okay with you? Rather than plonking down there and getting everybody's So the suit so the suit the briefcase rather, does have an effective purpose So let's say we haven't gone into there and we go into the study he sits there, where would you put yourself there ? Straight Just there yes okay why would you go there ? Because the desk is consultation. Could be seen yeah. see what you're doing if you're writing. Yeah. Yeah okay I think to go across there, won't be so board room style, can be seen as confrontational. We used to have the layout on course, not like this but in that sort of case is where I'm in the middle there and you're all sat around there. I said they would be noticed because you got a better response from people who put you in small groups feel there is less pressure on them. Which if you imagine you've got twenty,twenty four, twenty four people all sat around in that particular format and I nominate somebody within the group, twenty p pairs of eyes focus on this one guy, if he doesn't know the answer to the question he's incredibly embarrassed. If you spread the group up and as far as you're concerned there's only a couple of guys looking at you and within the group more supportive than just one big body and if you're feeling comfortable then the chances are you retain more information and part information to not just sat there. Those you find general public make no difference. So yeah, be aware and try not to be . There may well be there's a chair there and a chair there there well, I guess he'd want you to sit there, don't be tempted to pull the chair when it authority I'm here, you're there do with me, let's see how it goes and I trust you. Okay he stamps his authority. Again be aware if you have a desk, the temptation is that you using a folder here and if your is laid on the desk, what would he be able to do? Roger? read it. Yeah he'd be able to read it, now the problem with that might produce is what? What his potential problem would be,pick it up . What psychological barrier up, there's a psychological barrier you reckon you can sell me something. He might start asking you why answer to that question. got there . That starts the key thinking, why do I the field list of . Why do I just time, why do I do that? You can go through the points one at a time. I want you to concentrate on a specific area, so you want to retain control. You are the main you're in charge there, so again be aware. This is why I think this sort of folder worth its weight in gold put the C C Q in there and it doesn't become a barrier if you have it like that. Something which is called the best of and at the same time this barrier , so again be aware. So if I was to say we've we've picked our area, what potential instructions do we have do you think, let's say we've got a good, quite now, what potential instruction do we have with that particular area, that arena rather? T V. Yeah the T V could do with a few big ones, alright okay body stopper, they want you to have a T V on and be tempted, depends on what, how it went, to ask them to turn it off but if you can't that would upon them then you'll have to work with it because what you don't want to be seeing is okay they are there, you're here and they're concentrating on this. Okay what other obstructions would we have? Pets yeah. Pets, he just wants to say hello, you knock at the door and this Afghan wolfhound is playing in the back there, take it in the kitchen and they say to you he only wants to say hello, that's right This dog is bounding out and going to sniff and then calms down. I went into one house and er you so I came in and I got to about sort of I don't know, roughly there I think it was and she said, do you have any objection to cats? I said no not particularly that little grey Persian, cats in the so I went in there and then six of them, cats and two gerbils oh my God what am I getting into? So you can actually look at your jokes. So nothing to do with pets really, just put up with the hope or you can always take yourself with you miaow spreading the . What other obstructions do we have? How can we pre-empt that? Ask the time they go to bed? Yeah, yeah you could do yeah if you have young children because they are far better sales people than we will ever be. You could think of course do have children, dad, can I, can I, can I,bed you go, just to shut them up so if you have two small children there, the chances are you will lose the woman put them to bed or . If you lose the woman what have you potentially lost? sale. Unfortunately. The decision maker Then you've lost them in maker, he's going to do nothing without her being there. Again you want both people there. So just a few ideas, not let you know exhaustive but a few ideas to be aware of you've got appropriate . So, three ca get there on time, let them set the clock by you, people are more forgiving for somebody I think if you are a little bit late, than if you're too early. Cos people are geared up to see you at seven o'clock. Five to seven, that's not a problem, but quarter to seven, that sets the whole, the whole sale process the wrong . seven o'clock, well I thought I'd come a bit earlier forget that they want a tidy living room, they want to get the toys out of the way, they want to present themselves in the best possible light so they'd be more forgiving if you're late than if you're too early to be on time. Right, so, here we go then, let's look at step one the open right so, okay so what would be the first part of this particular sales process? introduction. Yes. Reaching an appropriate sociability and the business to be won or lost short space of time and wanted to set the scene and make a right, a right impression at the right . Then appropriate too short, too long,accept the so appropriate sociability, how long have you been there just moved in, do you know the neighbours that bit of information you've gathered especially late at night now on someone's door that's already set back whatever. Nothing more embarrassing than going up right underneath, oh he's got the wrong one and the door opens. Very embarrassed to get a to searchlight the panning down the street so we have responsibility to accept the team sat down and start . What would you point? five . Can I worry about that? Yes. Don't say I'll give you a bit of my advice on a lead, because er you haven't had the call so you ought to be on your best level. Wise guy merely states who you are and who you represent and what advice you can give and that's it, it's no big deal. If they wanna read it let them. See cos very few people will actually say stop I need to speak with independent advise because he's working in my best interests, where you are entirely with an independent company. Very few people at all would ever ever ever ever say that and we look at the, when we look at the, the erm format you'll find called it a sadist because chains on him from because on him so that we . However, if you feel the buyer's going to present a business problem we show them the buyer's guide and a business card so you can give them the buyer's guide, explain what it's for and then give them your business card and then that buyer's guide to look for business card. Yeah, the buyer's guide but let's not get bogged down with this, this isn't the problem something we have to do. so he looks at the buyer's guide, business card and it's thoroughly . What will we do there ? yeah, introduce Bob for referrals. Then how do you tea how would you have tea? Well depending on the situation er you would ask him how he did came to be client. Yes okay carry on you're right there . Erm So erm come to . With clients like this walking down just wanna go down quality. That's the usual answer I get. Yeah. Erm you may have heard that we've grown big by being recommended. Er by word of mouth recommendations erm Sorry Robert Oh yeah we've carry on. You can erm by word of mouth recommendations it means that we, we have to spend less money on advertising, now that means that in the long run we can pass that on to the client like yourself Ha ha. by way of reducing and charges or increasing the benefits wherever possible. Right. Just in the course of our competence. Right in the course of our er er com our meetings Danny erm I will be asking you to recommend me to people but if, but only if you feel that this meeting has been of some benefit to you. Will that be okay? We'll, seriously gentleman we'll take it from there, there there's a cup of tea out in the . introduce it get my view of I'd give you the introduction one point commitment that you didn't get. Yeah. but hopefully it won't be the so what you're saying was you you'd recommend it to us, yeah plan this is the way we do our business, by recommendations okay. You have to learn that script, it's got to roll off the tongue, if you don't know the script, you'll have it you'll leave it out, you won't do it, you haven't planned for tea which means what? You won't, you definitely won't ask at the end of the first not a hope in hell begin the second, cos you might ask at the end of the second appointment. comes a shock to the guy, who depends on my advice there's my business card I will now give me a ring. Yeah sure yeah lovely, thanks a lot. What is it was, what did they tell you anyway? Erm hash it back to referrals, thirty one weeks six hundred any of the thirty one weeks and they're gone. Okay so make sure we plant the seed and and we're planting the seed to go back to later on. So we've planted the seed makes sense, we'll see what you can do, get mortgaged up, what would we do now? Yes Yeah. Why do there? And what would be And the reason Pauline is to service That's one of the reasons, yeah. One other. Yeah, good one other. To make sure . Yeah good. Well the first want to say hi two to look at the policy we have with us to make sure they're so good as originally intended. Well what always follows the statement professional salesman? Invalidate it good. And what will be a tentative . Well what do they mean by a tentative benefit? tentative benefit Yeah we don't want say well you know I can save you tax. Well if you save tax yes it is or bad planning try to keep it as broad as we possibly can. So what attempted benefit would you undertake? benefit . Yeah. is making money work harder for you. Yeah. Try to keep it as broad as you can to do the well alright then I know why it is, what's in it for me. What game an hour in the future increasing your income like today or some time in . Then what would follow . What would be my first Yeah. A tentative . Salesman. We call it a proceed, then why do we check proceed should be part of the whole self process and not just in . to be delivered in one statement show you what the chances are you'll be doing it anyway but not erm what you are actually doing purpose you'll always be followed by a tentative benefit always be followed by cheque standing or in this case tell me how does that . What are we gonna do now? Yes . I need to take down one or two details, will that be alright. it's part of the sales process. For you to give better advice,C C Q no you don't but to get past the yes you do. If you don't you could use an A four pad building up a picture of the guy and trying at some time with that one,if you do, don't have it. do obviously, do business, you're gonna need some form of I D card . The final session would be to introduce er the C C Q. That's basically, that is step one can you follow? Each part of that particular structure, you've done a good step one, what must that lead to? Before step one we did what? And before step two we do? you're not too sure what he wants, he's agreed to see you next week, he doesn't know why he's seeing you but you go back and you present,so try and overcome rejection but the thing was he wants to in the first place. So you that one second time instructions from that point unlikely very very unlikely so you've set the scene with a good strong step one, so looking at each indiv individual part of the open, which parts do you think you could leave out? None of them. None of them,so make sure you don't. step one. Any questions or comments? unlikely and he said no I don't want to go, it's easy sorry to have, thanks for your time. Yeah, yeah. I wouldn't, I wouldn't C C Q, I just go back to, erm and to start chat basically and see what contact . Now acknowledgement could be , can be . That's a good question the temptation to fill the void is quite intense. How, how long do you think it'll take for give up how long will it take before that person feels uncomfortable and has to respond? How long does it take roughly? ten . Specially fifth, a fifth of a second and they start to feel uncomfortable. By one second, two seconds, they are starting to perspire and they will have to say something unless you get a real swine to sell people, one we sell to, two, the one that says I know the stuff a hope in hell he did that and he was quiet for twenty minutes. Twenty minutes I just sat with him Yeah. He sold, he sold it to them in the end. Ninety minutes . He just sat there. forget what you're there for Yeah horrible. Pretty intense that twenty minutes, my God. Yeah. For those of you that don't know how to the C C Q then this might be a guide but a step in the right direction hopefully. During our discussions with the client I'll be making notes can the situation but one foot in your own regarding your own future plans. I'll just once more track, don't say all give you the best possible advice. effective way in achieving your future plans. How does that sound? Bit long winded C C Q then put your back up . to say okay and then quite often you say my God that's that whopper. If in the unlikely event, if they want to feel a C C Q, let them have it, don't, don't because that person may be a tax he, he buys he has to feel what he's buying and to deprive him from that you really are up against it. People buy in three different modes, visual and audible or a connective touchy, feel mode, if he wants to be touchy feeling you give it to him. He'll be touchy feeling and he wants to complete application form, give it to him okay if he's an original he'll want to see conceptual presentations, he'll want to see illustrations, he'll want to see erm, sales aids, if he's in audible mode he will far more readily to what you tell him as opposed to, let me show you something, okay and there's a specific technique You have to don't be afraid of P M you're right there you'll find don't be afraid to give him the C C Q, it's no big deal. If he comes back and says, well this is, this is a bit of a whopper, this document Just takes a lot of . Yeah. It certainly may not be, it may be a very good artificial you see H M A that he is recoverable, he may be a . So er right loads of you have been away, I'm going to hand And you can use this when we move into the role play which will be I don't know about ten o'clock-ish is that a problem the er a copy of a buyer's guide in for you Before we move into the role play for cycle, what I have to do is show you erm a training video that is produced by the department, you may have seen it before I don't know who's technical, anyone know what they're doing with these things? No You don't have much luck with I don't normally, no, this was set up yesterday change That, that is the problem I can't change that here that and not particularly that problem back up usually here Right, it's important to see this, so can we have a quick ten minute break and I want somebody Very very hard. Yeah can we be back here at ten to ten please sociability Now it's gone now I'm afraid. Yeah. The reason this figure was produced is erm because one of the comments we had back from the other induction courses er Gareth,the reason we had produced this video was erm structure you've never shown it, so it's not necessarily tongue in cheek but it is a strictly sales structure but it will give you a clearer idea of our guide what to do to the role plays this morning, Saturday and tomorrow. So here we go. The sales structure take two. Friends all steps to selling. We are trying to break the selling process down to areas, this takes place over two separate appointments, that sets out the of selling process easier to understand. Step one the opening, this book the introduction from the purpose of the appointment. Step two, exploration of needs. This looks at finding out about your client and comes from the C C Q the confidential client questionnaire, step three, present, this looks at presenting your recommendations based on the C C Q and finally step four the close. This is where you for the business, complete the paperwork and away the future business. Steps one and two takes place at the first appointment and steps three and four at the second. In the following two appointments our client's wife was unable to attend, however, it's important that all decision makers should be present where possible. Step one the open, this looks at the introduction and the purpose of the appointment. This would be the first opportunity that your potential client has to meet you, remember first impressions do count. You never get a second chance to make a first impression. Good afternoon Mr to meet you. Okay. Come right in. Thank you. A smile and a firm handshake accompanied by your announcement of who you are, where your should be the first impression that you make. Appropriate sociability means saying the right things to strike up a rapport with your client, helping them to relax, feel comfortable and get to know you before cutting the business. With some clients that can be five minutes discussing the house, the garden or a hobby of theirs with others it could mean a short exchange of pleasantries followed by a suggestion to proceed with your intended business. It's also a good time to decide where you're going to sit for example, in the dining room or the lounge. It can mean your client a guide about how you can advise followed by your business card, then help smooth into the area of business. I'd like to give you this which spells out clearly my status and what I can do for you, it simply states that I work for Well we have production course you have made your appointment to see Mr and Mrs who are existing clients of , you will now conduct the first appointment starting with greeting and appropriate sociability which is the first part of step one, through to producing the C C Q and then further copy pages two and four of the attached C C Q in your booklet, so two and four are er we've got four and two, the personal details and may be the wrong way round there, so it's advisable to say you complete the first part of it, page two and then the employment details okay, so you doing a little bit of exploring there so if you like you can be doing all of step one and a little bit of step two, buying in this particular role playing. Is that clear to everybody? So the customers will be myself, Maggie sales people throughout the day and tomorrow we'll not be customers in any way, shape or form. Now I'll put you in these erm particular groups and you each have an allotted task as it were, so group A which is you people there, you will stay here okay and group B and C I'll put you, that's what we keep doing with that,so Barry you are in the jurassic er Gareth you are in as well . So the previous manager will be Robert,and Gareth, it's your responsibility to control the role plays, make sure the the managers should not do that,keep it and make sure the whole role play scenario runs on track. Joan, Diane and Matt, so we'll see if we can get good this time so show you how the same . Bill, Roger and Vincent you will be the respective time keepers okay I'll give you timing in due course but remember to give a two minute warning which is the rap on the desk make sure going on and you will find out the role plays will or may run over time. you will notice B and C only has three people in it. What that means in your particular groups you will nominate amongst yourselves who will be the fourth role play. So each of the groups four role plays amongst yourselves who will do er the extra role play. If there are four to do, so you'll all again at least twice and the best thing you have is you have more practice er so are you all clear on what you have to do, what you're allotted to have to sell? Now and that's for my benefit alone okay, what that means is that I'll see each and every one of you in a, a role play so the first person in each role play will be Robert, Barry and Gareth, followed by Gill,, followed by Bill, Roger and Vincent and Robert again you do not deviate from that order. That means I will see you at least once. Right here feedback to your respective manager as regards to your sales figures so please stick to that format for today and tomorrow everyone clear on what we have for today, yeah?. So we're looking at five minutes preparation, fifteen minutes role play, fifteen minutes play back, followed by twenty minutes feedback. Each cycle should take fifty five minutes so we do three sets of role play, well we look at them, look for the cycle to start at quarter past ten first cycle must start at quarter past ten, there four that should be for one o'clock so we commence the third and final role play, come back here and break for lunch and have an hour for lunch final role play at two o'clock. That is everyone clear in what they have to do? Yeah the actual as you did successful sales course we can note your comments down okay, I'll give you a set of these now, write the sales person's name across there and write your comments, criticisms, what was done well, what was done badly, what could be improved on and it's his role play cycle, give this to the sales person. Remember the format controls he will normally start off, sell first routine, then he or she will have er say, right at the very end, say why he say why he or she and that's the format I want to follow. That performance but not the applicant, so don't take it to heart as not necessarily . Can I have the any spares Right if there are no, anyone got any questions at all? Right okay so this group of study here, you can get all your stuff and your videos, follow me and I'll take you to the rooms . Do not start until quarter past Yeah you don't start Yeah. Make sure you bring your videos and your notes and all that sort of stuff with you, I am sure we'll need it. And make sure you bring the key as well? Try and remember that okay let's go Thanks Bob. I suppose. Come on then camera operator technical . Yeah it's been engaged on Friday Are you are you gonna use this table? Probably I would think so. You're welcome. You alright? I'm fine. How do you feel ? Well done . I don't actually know where all those troubles with videos. Well there's er lots . they, they suggest that we do Are you going to use my tape rather than yours? What? No I'll just go and, I'll just quickly clean erm I'll just set the camera up that's all. that one. I don't know . What erm what today ? Oh well I'm officially on leave at the moment. I was taking leave this week Oh right. so I'm wound up anyway but erm Anything happening? I've got an appointment already booked. They wouldn't have got me to come if I hadn't had, if I . Oh well you're as experienced as anyone now this trying to get Okay Daniel Action. one of the nice parts about this is that you are getting paid on ninety percent cycle. When, when I started you only got payment . The problem that I had with the Where you don't get it, if it's clean bid there erm you're going to be getting it Right. Erm actually it may be better if you . Yes you haven't got much space there have you? No . I don't know . Which is good, considering you know closed down. Sure Oh yes. Well this is about make sure that you want Does your wife know about this? Oh right . Right who's got any well if you could just move a little bit closer. Now, now. You can see we, we've done very well on this . That's very I mean this see what you think about that actually it's got . Let's just look and see . but other I'm in control. See you've just got . that way see all the Yes. We can do all those all that. It's a personal sales process a complete evaluation of the Spot them I can't do it We pray for the leaders of the government throughout the world that they may have a desire and be unselfish . We ask and for the younger nations help to grow to maturity Help us that wherever we may go we may amen Amen Thank you. The prayer this afternoon is for doctors and hospitals . Most merciful father who has told us to love you with all our strength and glorify you in our bodies, we commend to you for your continual blessings the hospitals of our land and those who serve in them prosper all that is being done in the healing of the sick, the conquest of disease and the training of doctors and nurses that your will may be done for the relief of suffering and the making of lives whole through Jesus Christ our Lord amen Amen Oh Lord comfort and secure all those who are in trouble in sorrow or in need all those who are sick, especially we ask today for Mary who is in hospital and I understand has had an operation. We also pray for Francis and Len who Fr er Len also is in hospital. And also I hear Mrs isn't well so I can need to pray for Mrs and I think also today we should pray for Mrs who I know, at this very time as Remembrance Sunday is coming up, she will be very sad so we particularly ask for prayers for her. And that, by your blessing upon them and those who try to help them, they may find peace and encouragement through Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen . Amen Now could I ask for all the members to say the Mothers' Union prayer, the nineteen seventy four one which you will find on page three. Almighty God our heavenly father who made marriage to be a source of blessing to mankind we thank you for the joys of family life pour out of us your holy spirit that we may truly love and serve you. Bless all who are married and every parent and child. May we know your presence and peace in our homes. Fill them with your love and use them for your glory. Bless the members of the Mothers' Union throughout the world unite us in prayer and worship, in love and service that, strengthened by your grace, we may seek to do your will through Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen Now I think it just leaves me to give the notices out. Erm we've got our Bring and Buy later and I see everybody's remembered to bring something, thank you very much. And erm also I have to tell you er our next meeting will be our Christmas party. So would you all please bring a plate of goodies? Thank you. And now it is my duty to introduce Doctor and erm I think you said you were talking to us about yourself and erm also a little bit about your holidays? That's right, yes. And I'll stand up unless my legs start to ache and then I'll sit down again. Well thank you very much for inviting me to come. I've come to Saint Mary's and I've been here er just over a year now and erm Rosie collared me into speaking to you as I was speaking at erm a neighbours and friends group at my parents church and Rosie heard about it and she said will I come and speak to you. Can you all hear me? Yes thank you. Right. First of all I thought I'd tell you who I was I'm a G P in er in New Harlow, in Bush Fair, and I've been there for nearly three years now. I am, I was born in Essex, in in hospital and my family all come from Essex, and I was brought up in Upminster and I was very fortunate in that I was born into a christian home and I had christian parents and christian grandparents and christian aunts and uncles and I went to church from the time I was about two or three weeks old. And this wasn't an Anglican church, erm it was a Baptist church, and when I was seven I understood that Jesus had died for me and then I asked him into my heart and when I was twelve I was baptized, which is the equivalent really of being confirmed. I was a Sunday School teacher erm when I was in my secondary school and I wondered what God would want me to do with my life when I left school and I thought maybe he wants me to be a missionary and I thought it was only teachers and doctors that could be missionaries I was wrong wasn't I? But that's what I thought, so I thought I'll try and be a doctor. So I did my O levels and my A levels and I then went to the London Hospital, which is in Whitechapel, from the age of eighteen until I was twenty three. And God was very good to me there, I wasn't the brightest in the year and I had to work very hard, but God always was with me as I always passed my exams much to my surprise. What you do for the first two years is you learn all the theory of being a doctor and you go and you have to between eight of you, learn all about a body you have one body between of you and you learn all about all the muscles and the nerves over a year and you also have to do lots of experiments, you have to learn to take blood pressure on each other, learn to take blood from each other Oh dear. and erm I, I fainted when someone tried to take blood from me because they couldn't find where to do it and they were Oh! digging all over my arm Oh. and then we had to do experiments on each other like putting tubes through our noses down into our stomachs Ooh and finding out what, what our er stomachs were like, whether the, the liquid in there is acidic, whether it's an acid and do you know the girls were braver than the boys, the boys wouldn't let anyone do that to them. Women are brave, that's why And erm we had to learn erm how to do heart tracings, ECGs, on each other and er all sorts of exciting things like that. And then, after two years, we were allowed on to the wards in our white coats and we had to erm find out about the patients and initially we were all very slow and we were given two hours to talk to a patient to find out all about them. Now I'm a G P we have ten minutes. And I can remember one of my first patients I had to take blood from, and it took me quite a few goes on that poor lady but she's still friends with me so she's forgiven me. We get sent all over erm the country, southern England I, I was sent to different hospitals to learn about different things, to learn about erm psychiatry and obstetrics and medicine and then erm you also do some er training back in your own hospital, but it's not big enough for all the doctors to stay there all the time well the baby doctors. And then, in the last year, in the fifth year, you have to do and pass all the exams. In the fourth year I was lucky enough to be able to go to Kenya and find out what life was like in a hospital there and we had a missionary from my church that was a teacher in Kenya with the African Inland Mission and I went to, really I was nursing erm and helping out there. Their erm conditions were very basic, and I took two fluffy hot water bottles which were going to be used as incubators for the premature babies, that's all they had, and I took out lots of needles and the surgical gloves and a special instrument for operations. So I went laden out, I'd never flown before, and I went to Kenya and life is very very different from hospitals in this country. The wards were very very bare and the families look after the patients, they come in and give them food and erm do a lot more for them than er they do in this country and erm there were two wards out of eight for tuberculosis, for T B, cos that's a very big problem out in Kenya. Erm and on a Friday all the beds went out onto the grass outside the wards for the wards to be cleaned Oh! so they were all emptied out of everybody. Fortunately it didn't rain, otherwise they would've all got very wet. Some of the erm people are in hospital there for problems that we don't have in this country. They have their local medicine and the witch doctors try and cure them of their diseases first so they would even bore holes into people's skulls to let the spirits out for headaches and things like that. Also there were things called pangas which were knives erm and the we saw quite a few tribal incidents and people were injured from knife attacks. And sad things like children falling into fires and because in the mud huts you have the fire in the centre of the hut and it's quite easy for the children to fall in and there was one little boy there who had been there for over a year and they kept trying to erm heal up all his skin wounds. We also went down into the valley, into, we were on the edge of the Rift Valley, and there there were a different sort of people. Wher near our hospital they all liked to wear western clothes, they were a bit out of date but er the there, there were lots of T-shirts and s and dresses worn by the people, there was even a Blackpool T-shirt, I'm not sure how they got in the shops. Erm but down in the Rift Valley the Pocot people were a very different tribe, they wore leather, little tiny leather skirts and cowrie shells and nothing here, and it was very very hot, and they were a nomadic people who erm moved about with their animals but because, when I was there, there'd been a very bad drought, they'd had to erm just beg really for food. So that was a contrast from the people near the hospital where I was and, what happened was, we used to do a little service and then anybody that wanted to be seen used to come along and we needed an interpreter and it was a bit like a surgery really, and they would come with any problems, and anyone who was severely ill we would then take back in the Landrover back to the hospital. We used to have to use a generator for our electricity and that used to go off at ten o'clock at night so if there was an operation that needed doing, there were two car batteries that were turned on and you used to have to do it by those. Ooh So that was different. And the, the water to bathe in came from the local river and er it was very very sandy and it just looked like mud that you were having to get in and do your bath. Ooh The water for drinking they used to collect from the gutters and erm it used to go into big barrels and then they used to boil it for a long while. The meat used to have to be pressure cooked for four hours to make it tender enough to eat! Erm there were lots of fresh fruit and vegetables and we had lemon trees and avocado trees in our garden. So that was quite an experience and quite a contrast from er life in good old England. After I'd finished I went and did six months in Banbury in er Oxfordshire er doing surgery. I was just helping out and erm learning the basics and I erm came and, appeared in the Christmas pantomimes the fairy godmother of the bedpan Oh and when they used to rub the bedpan out I would appear. That was good fun. We did that to all the staff, it was a sort of Cinderella story. And then I went to Hereford for six months and I did er six months of medicine, and that was a long way from home in Essex and er we all sort of er mucked in and er made our own entertainment and cooked for each other and that erm was quite a good time. And then I spent six months in Peterborough doing paediatrics, erm working in the special care unit with all the premature babies with incubators and not fluffy hot water bottles that time. And that was really amazing to see these little tiny scraps that were twenty three or twenty four weeks, so that they were twenty six weeks early is that right? Sixteen weeks early, and er they er really didn't seem to stand a chance erm of living but a lot of them did and that was amazing. And then all the, all the little children, some of them with very serious illnesses, but seeing how brave they were on the wards, it was a very moving six months. And then I got on a G P scheme in Crawley in Sussex and I spent three years there. I did er geriatrics obstetrics and gynaecology, psychiatry and casualty, and then I did a year as a G P trainee. I think erm casualty was the worst in that you had very very long hours to do erm sometimes you were on call from five o'clock in the evening until nine o'clock the following morning, and you did that for a whole week so by the end of the time you really did feel inhuman, you were very very tired. But I think probably the most disturbing was some of the poor people in, in psychiatry erm and er that was very hard work because you seemed to take the problems home with you and you kept thinking about some of the conditions that people had. And then I came here which was quite amazing because I didn't want to come here I wanted to be er like James Herriott and go somewhere really rural and I wanted to erm you know, just travel from village to village but erm it was quite amazing how God said you're coming to Harlow. I wasn't looking for a job because I hadn't finished my training, but er a friend of mine has h her father is a G P in Loughton, and he erm was at a meeting with the senior partner of my practice, and they said do you know of anybody who's interested in a partnership? And they suggested me, but I said I didn't think it was a good idea because I hadn't finished and they said we'll wait for you. And I said well you haven't even met me. Said no but you come from Essex so you can't be too bad . And I came and, and I didn't think Harlow was for me because I, it was all very built up and lots of roundabouts but the people, the partners were so lovely and er I saw some of the patients and I thought they were very lovely too, so this is where I've been. Our practice has got five doctors erm and Doctor erm Elaine , who comes here, she works for two evenings a week with us, and we have eight thousand patients on our list, and erm sometimes we're very very busy, and sometimes like in the summer we're not so busy. Everybody seems to have flu at the moment and they're coming in with the colds and the shivers and not feeling very well. Erm but it's a, it's good. Erm like any job you have your ups and your downs, it's very nice when you see people getting better or you've followed somebody through their pregnancy and they've got a lovely bouncy baby at the end of it and sometimes it's sad when you find out that somebody has got a serious illness or you're looking after people where somebody has died and it, it's very hard for the people left behind to cope and so that's very difficult sometimes. Sometimes I get very cross with the patients, sometimes they, when you're on call, they ring you up at three in the morning and say they're constipated! Ooh An and they ring up and they say they've had a cold all week and they can't put up with it a minute longer Ooh and so sometimes the, the calls do seem unreasonable but you shouldn't get cross, and when you go and see them sometimes you realize why they're anxious because something that might seem quite trivial to you they might know somebody who had similar symptoms and it actually turned out to be meningitis or something so you're then able to put their minds at rest. But erm it's quite hard if you've been up a lot at night and then you have to go and do the whole of the next day of work, but fortunately our rotas aren't too bad so we're never on two nights in a row compared with the hospital which was quite a lot harder work. Right, erm er then I, what did I think I'd say after that? Erm I thought I'd tell you a bit about what I did apart from medicine. Erm I like doing water colour painting and I've been on two holidays down in Cornwall and I've done that and that's very relaxing erm and it seems, you seem to forget about everything else, and that's quite good fun er but erm obviously if it rains all your, all your colours get washed away, but that's good fun. And I like erm erm knitting and crocheting and I like cycling and I like running and erm I like walking and erm I was very fortunate to be able to go to Nepal the other week. Erm I went er at the end of September and I did white water rafting, going down in a raft er seven to a boat, and going over the rapids wearing a Ooh wearing a crash helmet and erm a buoyancy jacket, cos if you fell in you could hit your head on the rocks. And that was quite an experience. The wa the river water's very very polluted there, so a lot of people got tummy bugs and we slept er on the side of the river in little tents and erm we didn't discover till afterwards, two things, one thing was that the little holes that we saw in the sand were actually scorpion holes Ooh and another thing was, we went to a crocodile farm, later on, and they said that they release the crocodiles into the river that we Ooh Fortunately we didn't see any. But that was good fun, there were eighteen of us, from eight different countries er Americans and Canadians and Australians and New Zealanders and Dutch and Swiss and English and er we had a good time, and then we and went and did mountain biking in Katmandu and we went up and down erm the valley and we saw some of the Hindu temples Ooh and we saw them burning bodies on the side of the river. And we saw the religious people, the religious men, who erm are the only people that are allowed to smoke drugs, you know, illegal drugs er things like marijuana, they're actually allowed to because the people view them as half alive and half dead and that was interesting to see. And we went to one temple and it got dark whilst we were there, it was called the Monkey Temple, and it's just so many monkeys around, and they just are allowed to run wild, but by the time we got back to our bikes it was dark and we had to cycle back in the dark without any lights on these unlit, unmade roads and that was quite frightening really. Mm And you have to pay the little boys to guard your bikes otherwise they let down the tyres. And then after that erm I did er an eight day trek erm which was in the Anapurna region of the Himalayas and that again was sleeping in tents and we had sherpas, porters, to carry all our luggage apart from things like water that we carried in our day sacks and they carried four bags each on their backs and my bag weighed about thirty pounds. Ooh. And they had a strap and they used to carry all the weight on their foreheads and on, and through their necks, and they used to climb, we went up to seventeen and a half thousand feet, and they climbed up with all these bags and they cooked for us and they got river water for us and sometimes they had to walk a kilometre to the river to go and get the water and then carry it back again er with the band around their heads and so initially it seemed quite difficult to accept them doing this for you, but for them it was a job and erm it was probably the only sort of job that they could get. And they seemed very happy doing it, and they certainly were very muscly Ooh from all the work they did. They'd have to be wouldn't they? Yeah. People there are very very poor. We saw lots of people picking up stones erm from around, by the edges of the roads and making little piles and they would then get picked up by lorries and I should think they'd get a, a couple of pence through doing that. All the children know how to beg, they run up to you and they say hello goodbye because normally when someone says hello and you're going you say goodbye so they think hello goodbye's the greeting and they say pen and then they say one rupee, which is a tiny bit of currency, erm and they ask for pens for their school so that they can write at school. And erm there's lots and lots of erm poverty but yet the people do seem fairly content with their lot. There's a lot of rice that's grown so in some areas the people can actually make a good living for themselves. The roads are hairpins, up and down, and they're, they're not tarmacked and so erm you often saw er buses that had fallen over the sides down into the river or that just were on their side, and that erm that obviously there'd been accidents. Apparently what the erm busmen do is they have to make sure that they get to where they're meant to be on time otherwise they get their pay docked but they like to stop off and see their friends on the way, and stop and have cups of tea so that, when they have to go, they go very very fast and we were advised if we ever went on a bus to sit on the roof because, because there's a roofrack there and some people do, so that if the bus does turn over at least you've got a chance to jump out. To jump out mm. And so that was all very interesting. And then, after that erm the trek, we went erm to a national park, the Chitwa National Park. Apparently that was on television last week, they were, did a programme about tigers don't know whether anyone saw it. And erm we went on an elephant on a safari and we looked for erm wild animals and we saw some rhinos, and that was quite good fun. And then we did a jungle trek and erm the guide said if I do that you've come near, if I do that you have to go away, if I do that you've got to quickly climb a tree Ooh if I do that you've all got to scatter and we were really worried about what we might find. There are tigers there, and there's leopards and things called sloth bears, a sort of bear, but they're actually quite rare so er we didn't see any of those, apart from the rhinos, we went very very quietly crawled under the undergrowth and we saw them in a water hole and they were just bathing there. But they've got very very poor eyesight so although they could sense where we were, as we stayed really really still they couldn't see us so we were quite safe but er we couldn't go any nearer than about ten yards from them erm because there weren't any suitable trees to climb in case they started to chase us . Ooh And then erm one afternoon we went in a dug out canoe erm to look for crocodiles and we did actually see them on the banks of the river as we were going down in our canoe, so that was quite exciting. And on our way to the crocodile farm erm we past some beautiful countryside, and on the way back one of the two jeeps broke down and after an hour they decided we would have to leave it. So we came back in the dark, there were fifteen of us in th this jeep bouncing up and down so that was quite fun too . Erm our last few days we were meant to see Everest and the beautiful Himalayas but the monsoon didn't er finish so weren't ab able to see that but we understood they were there somewhere. The other exciting thing was the leeches er because the monsoon hadn't finished there were lots of leeches around, and I'd imagined these huge things that were going to suck me to death, but they're actually little, like, just very very tiny little worms, about erm an inch long and very thin and what they do is they sit on leaves and things and as you walk by they get flicked on to your boots or your socks and then they wiggle their way in and they, you can't feel them there, but what they do is they suck your blood until they explode Ooh! so you er you take your shoe your socks off and you find you've got a, some blood in your socks, and that's where a leech had been. But erm I think I had lots of people praying for me back here because I didn't have any problem with them and I was the only one who didn't. But there's two ways of getting them off if they do latch on to you, one is to burn them off with a cigarette or a match and the other way is to use rock salt, and if you put rock salt on them they then just come off so that's a little bit erm more humane for the leeches but it depends what you feel about them really as to whether you want to give them another chance. When I came back to England I was very humbled really to erm because I arrived in Nepal three hours before that crash and erm a lot of people had thought I'd died in that crash and erm the patients had thought I'd died as well and they had to put a big notice outside to say that I'd been alright, they had lots of people ringing up. And it just made me realize how fragile life is and how God has got his hand on you and erm how he protected me from erm being killed in that plane crash because it could easily have been my plane Mm and erm it just makes you put everything into perspective. So that's one of my hobbies, I don't know whether I'll be going to Nepal or anywhere like that again, but it, I've certainly got er lots of happy memories of that experience and er I've brought erm a photo album erm with some of my pictures in if anyone would like to have a look Oh yes and I've also got one album erm with a few pictures in from when I was in Kenya which was in nineteen eighty four so, you know, if anyone wants to see what I looked like in there I had longer hair and I was wearing a white coat so they're very welcome. The last thing I thought I would talk about was my christian beliefs why I am here today why I am a doctor and what God means to me. Being brought up in a christian home isn't enough to make you a christian. You can you go to church every Sunday, sing the choruses or the hymns, listen to what the man has to say or the lady has to say at the front, and it can just go over your head and it can mean nothing to you apart from something that you believe might be true. But what you have to do is actually realize that Jesus died for you you have to be sorry for all the things that you've done wrong and you need to ask him to come into your life and to be your own saviour. And that means that from then on your life isn't your own, you don't do what you want to do, you do what you believe God is telling you to do and you try to live by what the bible says and you pray about any important decision you make and then, when God has shown you what the right thing is to do, even when you're going through very hard times, you know that you're there because that's where God wants you to be and that gives you faith to carry on. I thought er that God wanted me to be a doctor and I didn't have a place to go to, I took my A levels having had five chances of places to be a doctor and everybody saying no, we don't want you and erm I had everybody praying for me at church and quite miraculously at the end of the August, when I should start in the September, I had a phone call at half past ten at night from a surgeon at the London Hospital asking me to go for an interview the next day. And I went and he offered me erm to start the next month and I just couldn't believe it. But I knew that that was where God wanted me to be because it was such a miracle. And when I arrived I wouldn't've been surprised if my name hadn't been on the list but it was there. When I, when it came to exam time, I used to work until midnight, have three hours sleep and get up at three in the morning to carry on revising er because I wasn't brilliant and I couldn't remember everything and it was hard work. But I tried always to have a quiet time with God before I started my revision that morning. And God was faithful and I passed my exams. Then, showing me erm his promises in the bible, when things are, are hard then that's when you look to God and his word more, and that's when he's able to show you things from the bible because you're in a state of wanting to know. When everything's going well for you it's easy to forget that God's there with you, because life's so busy and so much fun. But when times are hard, when you're upset by things that er are wrong with patients or by things that have happened to you, then it's nice to know that God's always there for you. When I was twelve, and I got baptized, erm a lady gave me a little text and it was from Joshua chapter one and it was verse nine and it says have I not commanded you be strong and courageous do not be terrified, do not be discouraged for the Lord your God will be with you wherever you go and that's a verse that I've been able to remember and to thank God for on so many different occasions all through my training as a doctor and it's, all the promises in the bible are absolutely true and you can rely on them because it's not a book written by men but it's a book written by God. Another one was in Isaiah chapter forty and er God says here do you not know, have you not heard the Lord is the everlasting God, the creator of the ends of the earth. He will not grow tired or weary and his understanding no-one can fathom. He gives strength to the weary and increases the power of the weak. Even youths grow tired and weary and young men stumble and fall but those who hope in the Lord will renew their strength, they will soar on wings like eagles, they will run and not grow weary, they will walk and not be faint . And I knew what it was like to be tired and weary, but I knew that if I trusted in God and spent time with him then he would renew my strength and I could carry on. The people in Nepal are Hindus or Buddhists and they believe that they can get to God by going and praying lots of times, chanting, putting special dye on their cheeks, on their erm foreheads and making sacrifices. They erm bring fruit and crops and things and lay them before a god that they can see before them. But in John chapter fourteen it says,Jesus said I am the way and the truth and the light. No-one comes to the father except through me . And that's something that christians believe they have over all other faiths, that the only way to God is through Jesus Christ. Some people think that if you lead a good life then you can get to Jesus and get to heaven but Jesus said that you have to come through him. In erm Romans chapter three and verse twenty seven it says that er Jesus died for our sins and I'd just like to leave this thought with you, that n er just like me, when I could have died the other week in that plane crash, that none of us knows how long we've got on this life and, however long or short it is, there's no time like the present to get right with God if you, if you aren't and the only way to do that is through Jesus. I did that when I was seven and different people can do it at any time. Jesus said now is the acceptable time. If you do want to ask me anything about this I've got some little booklets or I'm sure some other people here could talk to you about it. But that's the thought that I would really like you to take with you today. Thank you. That's very nice. Lovely. Thank you very much. Oh it's really lovely wasn't it? Yes very interesting, yes. Is there any questions anybody like to ask er Kate anything? Cynthia can you think of anything to ask? You talked about pressure cooking the meat for four hours Yes. did you ever find out what meat it was? Oh yes we bought it ourselves. It was mainly goat meat. Yes. It's interesting because I was in Nottingham a few weeks ago and actually on Nottingham market they sell a lot of goat meat Right. and it said genuine goat . Did it pong? I didn't get close enough. I thought she was very brave wasn't she? Yes very brave But like she said erm the Lord was with her wasn't he? Mm And erm, we did pray for you, several of us prayed for you when we knew you were going to Nepal. Thank you very much. Was there any christianity in Nepal or Kenya? In, in Kenya there's a, a lot of erm er missionaries. K Kenya has more missionaries than any other country in Africa. Erm the Africa Inland Mission has many many missionaries there, there are a lot of American missionaries there erm and there are a lot of new churches being built and a lot of people are becoming christians in Kenya. Nepal is different, that's erm very very much erm influenced by the Hindu and the Buddhist ways, a lot of people believe in both Mm and erm I don't believe that there are many christians there. Jo 's in teaching isn't she? Yes I wasn't able to see her but erm I, I believe the work is very very hard erm in Nepal and I certainly didn't meet any christians whilst I was there. Do you know what the difference is between the Hindus and the Buddhists? Erm not at, not in detail. They do actually share some of the gods Yes. some of the gods erm they believe in erm both erm but certainly there were Hindu and Buddhist temples and erm people used to go to both. But they manage to live happily side by side? They don't Yes, there's no animosity, a lot of people believe in both and go to both temples. Yeah. Mm. So erm Well that's that's a good point in You talked about being erm you know, if God wanted you to be a missionary you'd got to be a, a sort of teacher or a doctor, do you see your, your role in Harlow as, as a missionary role or as a doctor? Erm I like to think that erm you can be a missionary anywhere. Mm. Mm. Erm sometimes I do find being in Harlow very hard erm and there's a lot of unemployment, there's a lot of depression, there are a lot of one parent families and er the children ha er in one family they've all got different dads Mm mm and erm sometimes that is very hard and I think you can be a missionary anywhere. Erm I do look for opportunities to talk to people about God but I, I certainly think that you have to wait for the right opportunity because, if people are ill or very down, then it often isn't the right time when they're vulnerable erm to try and erm talk to them about something. But yes I'm sure you can be a missionary in Harlow and I'd like to think that maybe I could erm increase that work and maybe have an afternoon a week where I could talk to people about God, but I think there's not really time in a ten minute surgery slot. Do you find it difficult, I mean I, I, I talk to people who erm work with, you know, Relate, marriage guidance and they find it quite difficult not to be able to bring their christian faith in when they are sort of counselling people. Er presumably doctors also find this difficult do they? It's very hard not to put your own views on to other people's lifestyles. Often there's a lot of, that people erm do or don't do that you, you can't erm go along with when people are wanting terminations of pregnancy or, or they're thinking of leaving their husbands and going off with somebody else then you just have to listen to what they say and put the facts as you see them in front of them. Occasionally you can say you think they're being stupid or have they thought about other things but at the end of the day people are answerable erm for their own decisions I feel and, if I have an opportunity I'll tell them what I think, but er if people aren't wanting your opinion then you can't really give it No. I think. You're working in one of the, of the less affluent parts of Harlow aren't you? Very Yes. much so, yeah. But they've all got videos They may not, they may not have carpets on the floor, but they've all got videos. It's sad isn't it? It's interesting isn't it, you know, I mean I, I come across a lot of people who are poor Yes sort of well we can't pay this that and the other and the thing that really gets me and, and, you know, I, I've tried to reason it through so many times but top er top of these mums' sort of shopping list is these disposable nappies Ooh that gets my goat too and, and they really really get me you sort of say well what do you spend your money on ? Ten pounds a week on disposable nappies. And cigarettes. Yeah. Well of course you see when you, when you reason it through lots of these people, they haven't got washing machines, they haven't got drying facilities Mm. and I suppose, you know, they're perhaps better off buying these disposable nappies. Perhaps the babies don't get sore bottoms now. But they're causing a they're causing a problem aren't they? They are cos I've heard that on the television. Yeah, yeah they don't break down do they? disposable nappies no. No. They're causing problems everywhere. And we pulled in in a car park in Brandon the other week and there in the middle of a car park was this 'orrible nappy . It must, it must cause disease and, and, and trouble mustn't it? All them dirty nappies left about. in the bins don't they? Then the bin men But you can't burn anything these days can you? No. No. Nothing can be burnt. I mean fire cleanses everything but, but you can't burn anything, you're not allowed to. Mm, except on bonfire night. I don't know why they don't wash nappies, we used to do it, I can remember washing them I mean I like to see the nappies flapping on the line. Yeah but you see lots of them haven't got lines you see. Some of them don't want them either thank you. They'd rather sit there and I think Mary was going, we'll just have our shall we say the Lord's Prayer before we Yes. say the You hot? Yeah it's very warm Shall I turn it down? turn it down? Is everyone else hot? Yes I'm hot, I'm always hot. I sat in church this morning and fairly boiled. Our father who art in heaven hallowed be thine name, thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven, give us this day our daily bread and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us and lead us not into temptation but deliver us from evil, for thine is the kingdom, the power and the glory for ever and ever amen . Well we'll have hymn number twenty two in the red book Are you alright Catherine? It isn't it's Now Thank We All Our God. You know that. Have you all got it? Have you all got it? Yes thank you. Now thank we all our God with hearts and hands and voices who wondrous things have done rejoices. Who from the and bless us on our way and still is ours today. through all our life be near us. With ever joyful hearts and blessed peace to cheer us. And keep us in his grace and and free us from all ills in this world and the next. All praise supreme in highest heaven our eternal God who now and shall be ever more . Thank you Mary. explain to us. stop the tape because it doesn't want me on it. Right well that that's er er for now commence the meeting. It is half past seven and we have apologies from Mrs . And I'll now ask them, everybody else is present, so I'll now ask the Clerk to read the minutes of the previous meeting please. Minutes of the Parish Council meeting held in the village hall on Friday the fourteenth of January at seven thirty. Apologies from Mr . Present Chairman Mr Mr E Mr Mr Mrs Mrs Mr and myself as Clerk. Minutes of the last meeting were read and signed as a true record. Matters arising. Tables. It was agreed to leave them as they are and to take no further action. Mrs was to phone her rights and complain. I know that sounds a bit odd. Memorial stone. We're waiting for a price. Er three names have been put forward and . to contact War Commission for further information. Correspondence Notts mineral local plan. We agreed to take no further action. Public transport conference. Mrs to attend if possible. Allotment hedges. Mr explained the situation concerning cutting the hedges and the council agreed that he should go ahead and do them if possible. Planning. Mr Chapel Bung Chapel Bungalow Back Lane. Report passed unanimously. Any other business. Recent lottery winner Mrs one hundred pounds. She made a twenty pound donation back to the village hall the clerk was to send a letter of thanks. Hill. Was told to contact Notts County Council concerning the state of Hill including the entrance to Hill Farm er where water runs off the road into the farmyard instead of down to the gully. Garden open day. It was agreed to support nineteenth of June ninety four. Bus shelter cleaner. The bus shelter cleaner resigned her job after the after the article in the Village News concerning the school survey. The Clerk was to send a letter of apology to Mrs thanking her for twenty years of service and ask if she'd reconsider the job. Date of the next meeting set for the eleventh of February at seven thirty. As there was no further business the meeting closed at eight fifteen. Thank you very much. Is it your wish that I sign these as a correct record? Yes. Thank you. So the date is the eleventh. Mark it I was going to say make sure he gets the right . He's obviously shell shocked after his journey. Yes I am. Right minutes matters arising from the minutes. I made a note of several here. Erm first of all the table did you I'm sorry I've got the telephone number now and it's in my mind to do it. Right. But I've not done it yet. Fair enough. Erm transport conference Yes I've been to that. Would you like to report on that ? I can give you a report if you want me to do that. Do you want me to do it now? We can take it at this stage I think yes please. Erm I can only say that it was an exceedingly expensive conference this. I mean all this sort of thing did not come cheaply. Erm you may find that quite interesting. I suggest that we do the usual thing of passing that one round so that if anybody wants to read it they can read it. Pass it around and when they've read it initial it and pass it pass on . Er yeah initial it and pass it on round. Erm So will you start the ball rolling Harry on that one. It was quite an interesting conference. Erm there were representatives from pretty well all the transport organizations in Nottinghamshire there. A great many erm county councillors because it was a county council conference. Erm so I think it was probably quite well attended though there were a vast number of these green files left at the end so may be it wasn't as well attended as I thought it had been. It was quite a good venue anyway. Where was it at? It it was at Edwinstowe the South Forest thing. The only snag was for a tran public transport conference everybody needed a car to get there. Only one person managed it on public transport . And that was someone from Nottingham University who spent a great deal of time grumbling about the bus service from Mansfield to Edwinstowe . So there you go. Erm some of the speakers were excellent. Particularly the ones from private industry. Erm I think really it didn't say anything very constructive because it seems to me that the local council county council hasn't grasped the nettle and got all the private contractors together to make a reasonable service. They keep talking about what they call seamless journeys which means you should be able to go from A to B to C without too much problem. But unless you can grasp the private contractors and make them cooperate within this or encourage them to do so, there's absolutely no way you can have a so-called seamless journey. Erm they wittered a lot about the cost of erm extending the Robin Hood line. Though it does seem to be in their mind to extend that. Partly for tourist reasons but partly because it does in fact provide quite a good service. And it would seem that the park and ride service and something like the parks and the Robin Hood line would transport a lot of people. I think it boils down to the fact that it's fairly economic to transport vast quantities of people but not to transport from the outer edges and the odd bits in the middle and there's no way that they're going to get a full and comprehensive service come what may. Erm They're putting a lot into this Robin Hood line though aren't they they're going to That's right that's right. And they want you know there were lots of people wanting it. Extending a lot further south to connect up with Leicester and the border areas there. Cos it can take apparently about two and a half hours to get into Nottingham from erm some of those areas. Whereas really it's only a few miles as the crow flies as it were. And it would be much quicker on a train. I think we're very well organized here and we don't have to worry too much about it. Erm and for some reason or other county council seems to have set its face financially against making bus lanes in and around Nottingham. Erm even for peak period times which would certainly help them. Though they swear it will just block absolutely everything. But if you make it difficult for cars people would consider park and ride. From my point of view the interesting bit was meeting so many different people. And I think that's about all that can really be said about. They they put on a very good show and they brought a splendid bus to show But it was worthwhile going. us and erm the dial-a-ride Yeah you didn't feel it was a waste of time is how you felt ? Slightly. I mean there were a lot of county councillors huffing and puffing. Erm they thought it was a bit like the dying froze you know . May be I'm being a little unkind but that was rather the impression I got. But the the people I met made up for that. Did anyone ask why the O R T system in Nottingham is going parallel with the er Robin Hood line er once out of the city? No they didn't Richard. It seems it seems very odd that it's running parallel basically with the Robin Hood line. I wondered what's the matter with the rest of the city. I don't know. I've got a splendid map that they've put out. May be that will identify things for you. Do you want to have a look at that? This was launched at the meeting. They're very proud of it. But I mean a lot of us suggested that rather than pick out all these very difficult to understand erm time tables it would be far better to have a personage at bus stations and things. Cos people would far sooner ask somebody than they would cope with the complications of this sort of thing. I don't know whether that's any good to you Richard . There's one other thing too about this debate. Before the L R T system line to Hucknall you've got the Robin Hood line going through Hucknall Yeah. They're in the in the Sherwood area for our constituency aren't they? Oh yes. So if we start going on about transport they're going to rub that into us that we've got owt. I see. You know. And I think it's a re and it's a bit er Oh I didn't feel that I had any gripes from our point of view. We are reasonably well served . No we're reasonably well served here yeah. It's just that I think that they don't publicize a lot of the services as well as they might do. And you aren't aware that you can actually go from A to B at different times. No you know it's just to have a point if anyone had thought anything about it but of course No no one no one said a word about it seemed keen or do too keen on the Robin Hood line of which there were plenty. But er I I looked into all this but there you go. I suppose the thing will be to connect Mansfield up in due course. Well they want to connect Mansfield then they want to connect eventually right up through Worksop and on out into the main lines. The only thing is you see if British Rail gets privatized it may be that Retford and Worksop places will lose some of the services that they already have. Which of course at the moment on the one two five line are excellent. Are there any other questions for Mrs on this. Yes Harry. You you mentioned the private bus contractors need Yeah. to be better coordinated Yeah. by the county council presumably Well I think they're the only people who what what control have they over them? Do they provide a licence ? I think they have licensing control under the They the county council licence the whole service is of where they can run. Yeah. Under the nineteen eighty five act. But they still tend to go round in packs every so slightly. They been held up by all the traffic and they can't get through. Yes. Yes well and they're very much yeah. They they feel they can't keep to a timetable for that reason. Therefore they would welcome bus lanes and feel that they could get things shifting a lot better. But I mean unless you've got, yes, but unless you've got excellent erm er transport services people will stick to their cars purely for the convenience. You really have to make it inconvenient for the car or improve local transport. Is there another question Harry? Well I was just going to say, do do they actually get tenders for certain routes? I believe so yes. So they still do that. I know the bus times Yes yes yes yes yes yes So there is an opportunity to coordinate it? Oh yes. Oh yes. So presumably if they don't get bids for those routes then they they can't do anything about it. Can't make people No. And of course they want the most economic ways of doing it. So they've got to connect up as much as is humanly possible . Yes yes. But it would still help if they could help with this seamless journey bit you know . Yes yes and connect up with rails as well as. How does the contracts work then? Do they I don't know. Don't know. sign an undertaking to provide a service. I mean I honestly don't know how it works in practice. I know I know the local the East Midlands now are saying private cont er private firm isn't it? Mm. Has been taken over by a stagecoach. Which is a There were some representatives from that there. That's right. And imm and immediately they got hold of it they've whopped the prices up too. The whole idea is competition. There wasn't too much grumbling about the prices interestingly enough. I thought that would be something that a lot of people would Well that would be a wouldn't it because you all went by car you said. No no no. But from people who'd brought that things to talk about. Oh I see. You know the the price of the service wasn't something that really upset people too much. One pound seventy five to From here to Newark and that's not a return though. That's each way isn't it? No no. All the buses that are on the routes now extra buses, is it a better bus service? No. No no no it isn't. No that's the problem. Since they brought in this new act, I think it was about eighty five Nine eighty five the transport act They er operators have a tendency to overcrowd the profitable ones and those that are not profitable loose out altogether. Whereas before it was more of a service. Instead of shoving all the buses on to one route. Yeah. Yeah. It's it's what philosophy you adopt. Whether you adopt the the one which the Government favour as a commercial it's got to be a commercial enterprise and pay. Er the survivor of the fittest. Or whether you feel there should be a service for the whole of the area. Er which is subsidized. If you saw in the paper as I did. There's one firm that had about nine buses took off the road try trying to cut corners as well. It just When you say the Government is it controlled by the Government. Coun county council's labour controlled isn't it ? It was the it was it . If you re recall back in nineteen eight five Tony the Government brought in the transport bill which let operators compete. I mean they they started the initial scheme was in Hereford. And Hereford was so blocked that nothing could move. So blocked with coaches. Beg pardon? Man falling off a bike it's only a small place isn't it ? But one thing I'd like to mention while we're talking about buses and I think this is the right place. At Edingley when they discussed this they were concerned about buses going down Station Lane. And if you recall some time ago we wrote and said we would like the buses that go down Station Lane Edingley to come through our village. Now Edingley want to get rid of them going down Station Lane because they don't pick anybody up down there. I mean they pick somebody up at Goldhill Cottages and that's about all I don't know. Didn't manage it did you? Erm but Edingley did ask for our support they were writing to and they were supposed to send the top copy of the letter to our clerk. Well the clerk tells me it hasn't arrived. And the meeting was about ten days ago or something like that. Erm so whether she hasn't got round to it I don't know. But what they were asking for our support would we also write to the bus companies again and urge them instead of the buses going down Station Lane to come through our village. What was the object, I know we discussed it at great length, but what was the object of it going that way in the first place? Can you I don't know. The bus com the company just did it didn't they? Yeah. Yeah but there were about three Every other every other hour. One goes that way every other hour one comes through every other hour . When I go down er to get on to bottom road to pick up at Norwood Gardens want them to go down School Lane. They can't they won't we've already Yeah they wouldn't, at the time I wrote, they wrote back saying School Lane wasn't send buses down. And twice this week a bus has come down School Lane. Has it? Came down Halam Hill and went down School Lane. Well I have to say it isn't suitable. You're right I mean the edges are appalling . There was a bus went down School Lane at half past two this morning cos I sent it down there. This morning? This morning at half past two yeah. Dropped me off at the cross roads and went straight down there to drop off at Newark Road . I can remember one I can remember one going up Lane at half past two in the morning. I don't know whether he's travelling fatigue or shell shock. I mean whether you want to support Edingley or not that's the question really I'm asking you. And they want to get rid of the buses down Station Lane. But where do they want to send them? They really don't care where they send them so long as call up up Edingley Hill what They School Lane. What what I did say that Halam had already objected to them going down Station Lane at Edingley which we did. And so they they virtually what they said was would we would we again renew our pledge that they came through Edingley. Good idea. Now one at a time Harry. We could do without the stop the buses altogether. Well if it doesn't pay you're not going to them. We can't pick go round Norwood Gardens and not want to do it. We didn't object to the buses going down Station Lane before. All we asked was if it was possible for them to come through Halam and go down School Lane to pick to get an extra bus service at Halam. They said that wasn't possible and I think I'm the same opinion as Harry if you're writing off and stop them going down Station Lane they'll probably withdraw it altogether. Yeah. I'm also concerned that if they went down School Lane, although I think it you know I understand they've got to go to Norwood Gardens and things, that with the car park at The Plough now being blocked I mean School Lane at peak times for schools is a nightmare. And I think trying to get a bus through there as well would be absolutely lethal. Well I'm putting it to you it's up to you I don't mind. I mean it's Well as I say it is a different company now. Well I I think we can There's two companies. One one at a time Tony please. I I don't think they'd sort of hold up their arms and say well we'll finish altogether if that's your attitude. We can at least answer them couldn't we. They can always say no. Richard? I would suggest that it'd be a good idea to give . It would be beneficial to this village if they Well if they've got to pick up at Norwood Gardens how's the bus going to get to Norwood Gardens. They don't run a bus With with your permission I'm gonna ask Mr if he can recall the argument. Did they not say that these buses did not pick up at Norwood Gardens didn't they? They went direct. I think their suggestion was that they had to go via Norwood Gardens because they then turned right at the in and went up into the middle of and it was to get them on to that line that they had to go through . But they did say I think distinctly that they did not pick up at Norwood Gardens. There was another pathfinder service that goes down to Norwood Gardens . There is another pathfinder service that starts there. I mean you were at the meeting that's why I'm referring to you . I mean that's er that's what was said. service from Norwood Gardens goes to Nottingham. Yes but as I've I've seen many a bus coming towards Norwood Gardens goes round the little and back out again. As I understand it from what was said at Edingley it wasn't necessary for these buses to go to Norwood Gardens because they were well served without. I don't know. That's the trouble with being car drivers isn't it ? Do do you wish to take any action. You're you're proposing Tony that we do write to the bus company again and ask if the buses can come through just say through Halam rather than go down Station Lane at Edingley? You're second I would second that yes. Is anyone against that proposal? Are you all happy with that? Yeah fine yeah. Thank you. As long as the driver's to go through Halam and not Writing to what? Writing to the bus company and ask that the buses if the bus service can be diverted from going down Station Lane at Edingley to coming up Edingley Hill and through Halam to improve the service through the village. Alright got that. And bus company did you know. So long as they don't do it at those two times a day . What what I do suggest is you know the clerk at Edingley Yeah yeah. ring her up and have a word with her and she'll probably send you a copy of the letter she sent she should have done that. Yes. And er yes have a word with Pat and so that you're both writing along the same lines. Could we qualify that that we do not want them to go down School Lane? Yeah but if I don't see how go down Norwood Gardens otherwise. This way they they could tip over on the grass verge couldn't they? Very easily. If they're not picking up at Norwood Gardens they're they're Well that's that's what we understood at Edingley meeting and there was That's correct yes. no need for them to go to Norwood Gardens or or they they specifically didn't go to Norwood Gardens they just went through didn't they? Yes it's been understood that it was a routing thing to put them at the right side of Southwell to drive through the middle of it. Yes. What I don't understand if all they need to do is revert back to what they used to be and come straight through on the on the ordinary route. That's what we're really asking for yes. Yes. We've already got that service. Every two hours. Ah every two hours and it can make it every every hour. Which is what it used to be of course isn't it? Yeah because if you want to go to Southwell at the present moment you go on a bus and you got to wait two hours to get one back. Yeah. Well we've already agreed now that we write to them Yeah that's fine yeah. And I did s I did say through the village Harry so that we didn't er I really feel School Lane's out . Which way we go through the village doesn't really matter does it? Yeah it does cos no one 's Well they not They might go down Hill Lane instead . Can we get back to to other other matters arising please. Erm I not sure I er Don Don's planning application is approved. I understand it's passing erecting, there's been a problem with the erection of things. Er bus shelter. What what was Mrs 's reaction to that? Oh dear. Oh dear. Yeah well. Thank you I haven't very much but er I haven't seen her since as I was No she thanks you very much for that but er No go. She's just not interested. Just not interested. When you get report into this news was that factually correct? Or was I think what was in the village news it arose out of those children's survey down there and what happened was that Mrs didn't think we'd er put in perhaps as politely as we should. I don't quite know how to to put this but but er she found what was in the village news offensive. You Tony could be cleaner the bus shelter . So we're ba we're basically I'm deciding what Joyce said. You wrote it let him clean it. Basically we're looking for a we're looking for another cleaner. And I don't know whether anybody's been successful. Any ideas or I actually took all those letters home and I went and I listed all the things that were listed er mentioned in all the letters and also that I tried to consider giving you know my impression of the meeting and tried putting exactly what what they're saying. And I put it down entirely factually from all the letters you know. It it's one of those unfortunate things that I mean I think we've we've got to look around and see what we can do about. Do we do we ad did we advertise for one before village meeting? Yes we have done yes. What recently? No twenty year ago. No no no I mean since this. We we've used it for things like the street clean Street cleaning and things like that. and erm assume there's no reason why we shouldn't do it erm this way. It's er I mean it's the only thing to do isn't it? To advertise for somebody. Oh yes. Are you all agreed to that? Yes. Thank you. Might get somebody to do it half price. There was something else that came up out of the minutes. Can I Yes there was. mention it? And I've got several other things. Oh alright go on. There's the there's the names there's the stone erm the allot I'll deal with the stone for the last because I thought there might be more discussion on that. Halam Hill that Yeah. The work is not satisfactory yet. The buil the I've rung them up and they said they'd do it. The hole's got worse at the top of the hill. So I rung them again and said it was dangerous and they came out more or less straight away and did the few holes at the top. Yeah. They have put yellow marks round some of the holes but haven't been back to do them yet. No there're great big yellow marks across the road with big arrows facing down into the village now. I don't know what they mean. They've been they've done before I believe. Oh have they? Oh. They have started the work but it isn't complete and I was going to say it's not satisfactory yet. budget. There's one on Back Lane as well I haven't reported that one. One at a time yeah. So Well well I say I rang them first time. Nothing happened. The holes got bigger on top of the hill so I rang them again saying they're dangerous for cyclist for a motorbike could have an accident. And they did come out more or less straight away and well I say drop a bit in But they are aware of the situation on the hill and they haven't been yet. That's all I can tell you. Mind you I should think they've got holes absolutely everywhere aren't there. The roads are terrible they are dreadful. Oh it's terrible terrible all over the place. Can can we couple with this there's the room pavilion, can we coupled with this New Hall Lane. I've been away all this week because my wife took a telephone message from Nora yesterday and it is it is in our parish . It is dreadful I walked along there the other day. It's appalling. and er he said that when they took it up three years ago of course they from the first six months I think it is and we got on to them and they they did agree They did yeah. But since then nobody's done anything about it. It it's in a terrible state it really is. So so can we ask the clerk to look into that and couple it with Back Lane as well. And Back Lane as well. It's only one but it's quite a good one I think . And somebody's reported a bad pot hole near your house Harry. Mrs Mrs rang me up and ask me about the one Somewhere a big hole hole down between her drive and the road. Where the water's stuck and it keeps coming down and it's getting quite wide where anyone could slip in. And that you know they leave they've left it for er two years It's going to cost so much money to get all this right in the end isn't it? It's a false economy. But now now's now's the time strike on because for two reasons. Because of course the county council have And we all know why. and secondly it's coming to the end of the financial year and this is when they want to spend the money. So I think now's the time to er make a bid for all these. So is it agreed the clerk write to them again about all the ones we've listed? Well shall we mention School Lane then because that is absolutely Yes we might as well. appalling. The sides of the road are giving way aren't they ? They are yes. You have to stop They seem to be happening daily. I mean it's just getting worse and worse and worse. And perhaps perhaps Pat could we ask could we ask for a site meeting with them? And see if they'd somehow. That that's the best way and then you and I could perhaps walk round with them or ride round with them and show them. I used to be able to do that. But the last time I tried they didn't want to know because well nobody will take responsibility. No I know. At the end of the day. But they seem to get things done at Edingley at site meetings. They they've Well I'll try for a site meeting. They've er they've done fairly well there with Perhaps if it's happen to be a time when I'm busy Richard you might do it as vice chairman. If I'm available yeah. Some or one of us will anyway. If we can fix a meeting a date up to suit them Yeah. and one of us will fit in. Right fair enough. Right. Allotment hedge edging I've got down here. Yeah we spade work. we er spoke spade work that sort of told you about, spade work recommended a list of do work. He's billed them and they pay out direct. That's fine. So Hang on just a second. I was walking that way with Ernest on Saturday and he said he thought the bottom hedge belonged to anyway. Well I don't think that's right No. I I don't I don't think that's right Glynis because That's okay then. I just thought I'd mention it because I didn't want anybody That that hedge was cut by David 's father last time Oh that was a good long time ago wasn't it? Yes yes. Albeit I think it was done for the parish council so. Right okay. That's okay I just thought that you should know that . Well we're we're quite I mean we agreed to it last time and if the billing's going to go direct we we can we can forget about it now . Yeah oh yeah. All we've got to see is somebody that wanders up there just see that the work's done satisfactorily. I'm sure it will be. Well like keep and eye on it anyway. Yeah. Right now the only the only other item I've got er rising from the minutes is the stone and the names. Now just to complicate the issue who probably probably is the oldest person in the village I'm note sure, erm has brought another name to my attention. And she's even gone to the extent of checking on the stone which is a memorial in churchyard of the. The person in question was a relative of hers and was killed or died I'm sure not whether he was killed or died but certainly served in the forces in the four fourteen eighteen war in he was buried in . But there is a there is a er inscription on the stone in the churchyard to him. So that makes four now. Have have you found out any more the cost Harry of this? Yeah for a stone that is ? Yes. Inlaid stone into the brickwork. A stone of about eighteen inch four by four with the appropriate heading I would have thought up to four names, depending on how many names there is in the Yes. village. Er between a hundred and thirty and a hundred forty. That doesn't sound out of the way to me. Mind you if you do it properly and you put their rank and regiments and things Ah well that well that like that on it it makes it a lot more expensive wouldn't it? I said I didn't think probably that would be but I wasn't sure. But anything extra like that would be extra. Of course. Yeah mm. I mean if it's if it is a war memorial which it is I said to just the name of the person who'd died in the . That that's all we're looking for at the moment. And if we want to put rank and Yeah. I mean you'd be doubling that wouldn't you? Yeah yeah the writing is pretty It is it is. Because you're paying by so many letters usually. Usually on memorial stone you just put the initials and the name don't you? You do. I wouldn't I wouldn't bother with rank. No I wouldn't. Because I wasn't sure whether he get it right anyway. Not unless it's proper And and they don't know the date. I don't know it would have on the date actually. No it was really a case of things were residents Just four names really. residents of the village who lost their lives in the nineteen fourteen eighteen war isn't it? After all You think that would cover the situation. Well considering nothing's been done for fifty year I suppose really . Yeah. Matter of of people who'd died in the first world war. could be more. Well we've advertised in the village news and Miss Clark's the only one that's come up with anyone. Probably the only one who's got a member in . Yes. I mean she's I haven't heard any comment from people at all about it. Whether they willing that we I mean Well that's what we elected for I just I mean in some I I I'm afraid Harry I'm one of those that we take our our responsibility and if they don't like what we're doing they can What you mean is they had chance. They've had chance . Well they've had plenty of chance haven't they? Does that include erecting it Harry? Well no it's just the stone. Well no no no no. If they're gonna have to cut hole out and put it in. Well no won't it be built in. Well I thought the idea was to put it on one of the original walls though. Not on one of the new walls. Well it won't be on it'll be in. It'll still have to be cut in though wouldn't it? Yeah If it's no I think what we agreed Glynis if it was going to be a stone it could go in the wall where it could be seen from outside. Oh right yes sorry I beg your pardon . But if we were deciding on a brass plaque or something Yeah. like that then it would be It would have to be inside. And I for what I'm trying to do I didn't think we'd be able to afford a stone I thought I thought it would be much more than what Mr 's quoted. I still think the plaque might be cheaper. Oh it would be cheaper but I'm not sure whether it would be Then the brass plaques tend to get taken off and happens where a stone remains. So with this this stone could be built in so that it's facing the road couldn't it? That's right. Exactly like these are in this place. Like the ones out here yes. Been in there for a long time aren't they? Yes. Been there for a hundred years haven't they? Well they're all part of the history aren't they? Great memorial I think really isn't it? Beg pardon? Be a good appropriate memorial if we can afford it. Well I would have thought so but Pat have you found out about the names? Yes. David was going to let you know about his relations. No. He asked me to contact the War Commission. Yeah. He asked me to contact the The War Graves Commission. War Graves Commission. I haven't found them yet. We've found everybody but them. I've got the Commonwealth War Graves Commission. No you haven't. No not on the Well I think we do because I yeah it seems so Well if it's yes. The Salvation Army were trying the community council the local community council. Just phone the Citizens Advice Bureau they'll help you best. We didn't try them. But nobody else could find the address. If the Commonwealth War Commission don't know how to get hold of the War Graves Commission The Commonwealth War Graves Commission can give us the information we want provided we can give them the christian name of the person and the regiment. Then Ah well. They otherwise suggest they otherwise suggest er If we knew that we don't need them. chasing back to the local paper to the approximate time that we think they died see if they report enough about them. Or go back to your local paper to the end of the war to see if they were all honorary. Furthermore, they're they can can't get any information on deaths that would have occurred from injuries after the war. None at all. Well we're not looking for those anyway are we? Well there was one query wasn't there? Yes. Even for the thirteen fourteen year? Oh it would have been a long while after the war yes. In fact I don't think it was. No. I mean I wasn't born until nineteen thirty and I mean I I I can remember Jim well so he didn't die until probably nineteen forty. How how many years after? Fourteen fifteen year after Yes. So if you're gonna talk about him what about Jimmy I mean That's right. It's not relevant then is it really? No. No. I I think these are fellows that were either killed or died on active service. And I mean this one that Miss Clark's mentioned he probably died on active service through wounds or something like that . Well he's the least of the problem because if he's got something in the churchyard there'd be something dated probably . was actually going to get the information for tonight but she hasn't been able to and I haven't seen her. But she was trotting off to the churchyard to clean the stone the other day. Yes I was just trying to think as to who it was to be quite honest. I know which it is but it's somewhere down in the corner where your brother used to live that corner down there Harry somewhere down there. So we've got four definites at the moment. Mm. So in that case we've got to do a bit of research haven't we? Well I've got the Ah. Let's let's have the Well well you've just said we've got four definites. Well now you're saying that the one that was injured wasn't one. The one that died after the war Right Richard. that was his name Yes yes. nothing more. He was a member of the Sherwood Foresters mentioned in despatches died nineteen sixteen approximately. Was he anything No. No he was a relative There was a Tommy used to come here you see. I'll I'll I'll I went to cows one morning and they started Well do not let too many skeletons out of cupboards. Very naughty. The reason the reason we know it was nineteen sixteen was the fact that someone named died Which one Richard? The reason we know it's not it was nineteen sixteen er that had been killed was that he was home obviously at the beginning of the war he went off and then someone named left a house well left they died and the proceeds of the house were left to Mrs Miss 's grandmother. And to Seth. And Emma's mother got both lots of money because Seth was deceased and so was Oh yeah So we've Seth this one of Miss Clark's relations we can trace that. So we're really struggling on two . Some people say it's cos he's got a thing in the church don't they? can you can you chase David when you get home? Yes it's in the window. You've got this you've got this information off Richard I'll make sure excuse me, you get the information from May Clark. You chase it up from David . Now who does that leave us with? Er one more? Yeah er Clark the one in the one in the or ? . oh. Is there anything in the village book? Just another point of interest to you people just a little thing that dropped out was that Mr er Mr died Yes. and the and the same day as they buried Mr . of the shock? Yeah. He died in nineteen hundred and ten and that was the same day It says here Mr died on the same day as Mr St er was buried . You'd better get slimming then. Mm there you are you see. Anyway he was nineteen ten so I thought it would be interesting. Yeah but it was different But he was I tell you he was resurrected again. But er yeah so we've we we've got a fair bit of information on three. It's that we're struggling on. How would we find out about then. He's got to go to the War Graves on that Well in that case we we need a christian name do you have a christian name for him? I haven't no. And well Miss Clark might remember I mean she is as you say probably one of the oldest people and perhaps Miss could rattle her brains a little. Who else might know? I think er came to visit who did she come to visit? Well then ask either then may be. My dad will remember his name. Oh well ask him then David. That's the answer then isn't it? Yes. Yeah. Ruby she'll have she'll have some children though because I mean they're somewhere down in they're somewhere down in Gillingham down in Kent Yeah they're down in Kent. Yeah but you know after such a time with children there is something like that No I I I honestly don't know I mean we fetched Mrs home to bury her but I mean that was oh nineteen fifty odd. Can't remember the address. No we can't. I know it's somewhere near Tonbridge Wells because that's Ask ask Ida. probably with Jim and er his brother being buried . I wonder if he'd carried all the information Oh Ida will know if anybody does. I mean she's the link person in that family. can you have a word with Ida then? Okay. Or David what about you? You just want 's name don't you? Well want as much information about any of them but er but I think we can find er sufficient about the others. But it's 's name yeah. I'll ask my dad. He he told me but I forgot. I'm sure he told me when I was asked Oh well that we'll leave that with you then. Old Jack and so and so and so. It might be possible otherwise to go would it be in the local paper. I don't know I don't know. What would have been the local paper then the Advertiser still or what was perhaps the precursor of the Advertiser yes . There was the Newark Advertiser and the Newark Herald in those days. Newark Herald. But I would have thought that one lot of er papers would either have gone to the archives office or er been retained in the Advertiser if they amalgamated at some time. Another possibility is the censors for eighteen nineteen one which is the last one you can look at. There's a hundred year secrecy on them you know. Yeah. If he was born by then before then and lived in the village his name would be in the censors. Possible that there would be of course. I mean I don't . But a lot of people went quite young didn't they? younger than twenty three presumably. Probably mm yeah. If they were born in the village they could well be in the erm baptismal book in church . This this is first of all can we I should tell you that the planning permission for this is passed. The district council has no objections and of course the county's granted themselves planning permission on it Yes. and that actually came through this morning. So so they will now be getting on with it fairly quickly. So if we're going to do anything We'd better get on with it. we've got to act fairly quickly so can we decide in principle whether we're going to do this or not and let them know that we either are or we aren't. That's the important thing. Oh yes. You you've got the original letter there haven't you? Yes. So can we have a decision in principle whether we're going to do this or not? They they don't want any further payment for doing it on our behalf do they? No what we were invited to do. We were invited to provide as the parish council we were invited to provide a stone with the details on. And presumably their builder would build it in for us. Yes. I propose that we get on and do it a fast as possible. I'm going to second that. Thank you. That's all agreed. Yes. Thank you very much. That's a unanimous decision. Richard how far does the christening go back in church the baptismal book? Beg pardon? They start building on the twentieth of March. How long is it going to take to get the stone cut Harry? If we can take it back to about eighteen ninety I've no idea this time. I'd have to ask him again about that. We've got, can I have a bit of attention please. We've gone back quickly so I've been informed that build that's definite starting on the twentieth of March. Well there's two projects running side by side. Erm which they start they're supposed to be running together at the same time when they'll start I don't know. But er Well they're gonna start on the twentieth of March They'd better start doing something. so they'll want this pay the month's wages. Well it's only it's only No we've got to pull that It isn't Well it's only coming out a yard isn't it? They might not do that On the other hand on the other hand they could leave get the exact measurement right and leave a hole. There's no problem about that. The thing to do is have a word with Martin . Why why? Well he's hurt his hand hasn't he? No. No no no no. Oh he said he he's like tendering the er the erm project people doing the tendering. No. probably going back to it. But anyway we've got a tight we've got a tight time scale . Nothing Martin says so. That's the important thing. We've got a tight time scale so we've got to do this reasonably. Give them the measurement they the hole. I will is it agreed we just put the names on? I think I will I will get the get the information If that's a suitable inscription. as regards. You're going to chase David up you're going to chase up and you've already provided the information as regard Seth . So that's the so we've got it covered. And when we get it all together you and I'll get together and we'll draw something out ready for the next meeting to either agree approval or or yeah? We weren't going to say just the names initials initials and initial Yes that's why I want the christian names. We want the initials but not the rank and Yeah. If you don't see David have a look in the church It's the St Michael window I think. It's in the St Michael window just round back of the door. Yeah. The little door there it tells you The name of it on the back Yes it is it is Yes that's right it's all there yes so there's no problem. I'll have a look on Sunday morning and see if erm erm baptismal book I didn't realize I didn't realize we had such a tight schedule and it reminded me when they got the plan, well I don't know when it came through, but I opened it today and. Right now then that's dealt with all the matters arising that I've got down. Are there are there any other matters arising from No because the hedging was the one thing I wanted to talk about . The hedging I see yes. Alright. We'll now go on to correspondence then Pat please. You've got the seminar on planning haven't you? Yes seminar on planning and law . Oh by the way, just going back to that other thing, can you let them know Harry we're definitely going to take in this Yes I'll yes I'll er contact them yes. And and at the same time ask them for a date when they want the stone . Yes Well area education office. Right correspondence. Seminar seminars for parish councils on planning policy law and procedures. Have you come across this? Do you know anything about it ? Yes I do yes. Erm Do you want me to explain it or do you want to read it out? Yes I can explain it. Virtually what it did it came out of the last parish council's conference which I attended on your behalf and er the Director of Planning and Development, Colin promised to lay on a seminar for parish councillors because it seems to be the one service which always gets criticism at the parish council's conference. Either the district council planning committee hasn't agreed with the parish council. Or if they have agreed reasons why they haven't . And so they're laying on this seminar for as many parish councillors who want to go to explain the planning procedures. And when you've been to this you'll know more about it that what I do. The date is on the twenty eighth of March and the location will be at Hall and it will be it doesn't give a time but it will be an evening meeting. In the dome. I don't know where it could be in the dome if it's Twenty eighth is a Monday is that? Checking Glynis just checking. It is. Yes yes I've got a note in my diary that's right. Monday the twenty eighth of March. And they want to know how many's going. Edingley are sending about four and are sending about four but er as many as like want to go. But anybody who's interested in planning or you either don't agree with us. Is there a meal or anything? No No you should have gone to the one that I went to. You refused to go you see. I haven't had time Glynis. Glynis you would like to go. Yes please. That's one. Tony you would like to go? Two. Do you want to go Simon? No. He's just gonna sit and be argumentative isn't he . Richard? No Harry? What do you two know that we don't know? You'll enjoy it I'll tell you. Who's doing it. either you agree or disagree Come on. is that the whole meet what the meeting's about? Come on it's obviously something fishy about it Seminar for the parish councillors planning law and procedures. Those parish councils who were represented at the annual parish councils conference at Hall last year will recall that the suggestion was made that a special session may be held on planning topics should there be sufficient support from parish councils. And the intention would be to have three or four speakers from the planning staff here who would talk about different aspects of planning rules policies procedures etcetera. And there would then be a discussion section session. I would envisage the talk to last about sixty to seventy five minutes and the discussions for another thirty to forty five minutes commencing Oh it does say,commencing at seven thirty P M. I have earmarked Monday the twenty eight of March nineteen ninety four as a possible date and the location would be Hall. I would be grateful if you could let me know within six weeks whether your councillors wish to attend such an evening and if so how many representatives you will wish to send. You can if you wish ring extension three five one rather than send a written reply. If the demand is high we may need to limit the attendance to a maximum of three per parish council. At this stage it's not limited . It would not be the intention to discuss individual planning applications . So now then I've got two so far. There's myself anyone else? No I'm busy. Right three from Halam then Pat please. I'll be out that night. D'ya know I just wish that you'd share this inner knowledge with the rest of us. I do really. Go there on a false errand. We're all busy people aren't we? How do you know I'm on a diet? Put put three down from Halam if anybody else wants to go I'll You can turn up on the night if you want No. I want a reply to that one. Right that's seminar thank you. The second item of correspondence economic development strategy consultation. Oh yes yes it's it's for noting yes. Put your name in it like. Put your name in it and pass it on. That's the other one thank you. What's this scratch roof? Oh that's this er they want they can all have one of these. Not even a hand round one. It's the er one from Oh yes yes I see yes. Yes got their . There you are David I bet you picked one up in your And that's the district council newsletter coming round. Oh I've got I've got one of those yes. When is this erm commission due to report in April. Oh yes. Ah but they've erm It's been put back. I was going to say they've isn't it? The I can't remember the exact date but what I can tell you is those of you that take the Newark Advertiser and the exact dates are in today's Newark Advertiser. Oh I haven't read that then. But it has been put back. We expect the findings the final findings to be in the Autumn of this year now. September this year. But if the Government keeps changing its mind and it's then it really is Oh it is a pain isn't it? It's a very expensive undertaking all this and it's such a waste of our money I suspect . And you see now what the Government have said that they are going to accept that there are going to be two key authorities in some counties. Because their own backup their own back benches in rural counties are kicking up so much in Somerset and Hampshire in particular that they've had to back down. But well I mean I think they've reported they've gone down. I think local Government's gonna be an absolute pigs ear if you've got two tiers two tiers in one county and and authorities in another. I mean well I don't know but there you are. I don't really It's had everything else it goes the full circle in the end doesn't it? Rural rural voice here we all look through. I will say this Mr chairman Newark district council is much more appreciative of you can't put but you could the Notts county council one. They've guaranteed costs down. That's all I can say. Your not with me? Your all with I bet the whole thing is going to cost millions of pounds. Course it is course it is. We never it never ought to the exercise never ought to have gone out Harry. I mean that thing I went to on Wednesday it must have cost thousands of pounds. A total waste of money really. But it was a Government decision. And I want You've all read this from have you? I've read I want to stress this please I want to stress this. When I say it was a Government decision I'm not speaking politically because whoever had've won the last election whether it be Liberal Democrats Labour or Conservative all three parties were committed to reorganizing local government. God knows why but all three parties were. So the outcome of the last general election made no difference at all. It will take year and years to recoup They'll never recoup it never. Right. The final on the correspondence is highway briefing. You deal with this and Right well we've had these before. It's highway It's all in the Advertiser Mr chairman. Right As Mr it's all in the Advertiser. It's all in the Advertiser. The highway briefing we get one each month out. Tells you what major road er roadworks going to take place. Major maintenance schemes to start in the next month include Danby Road Newark Road and to Road Have we any in our Pat near us that are affected? No. We're going from that's the nearest. Oh well. Well done Pat. As from as from April nineteen eighty four. The word children will be removed from school crossing patrol sticks and will be replaced with the children crossing signal. Erm you can have a look look through if you want. No you can when they're doing these repairs You wonder who dreams these things up don't you? in your back lane Traffic traffic close it to both ends. traffic management the A two the A six one two Nottingham Road at Southwell er closed to extended thirty mile an hour speed limit. Er By a hundred meters further out Oh they they've applied for that at the bottom of Road isn't it? So anybody wants to have a look at these says it's not viable. Well if they take as long to do it I mean good heavens there's been one clanking manhole cover at Halam and it has taken them weeks to do it. And they've got traffic lights up again today. You know where you It's a sewer that's burst or something. No it's that clanking manhole cover. No. Yes it is cos they've resealed it again today. Right that's the actual clerical correspondence. Can we go on and that's the bill for the tables is it? Bill for the tables a total of one hundred and eight pounds ten pence. A hundred and eight pounds ten pence. I'm gonna make a note of that. When I'm complaining I might just as well Pay that price. Is it your wish that er about the same price for a table Well work out a fifteen Is it your wish we should pay this account? Yes. Thank you. Then we come to, oh the general consensus of opinion was yes. I never heard a word uttered except mine. Well David was nodding his head and that Richard. Is it is it agreed that we pay the account for the tables? Yes. Thank you. Ooh can I just mention while we're while we're on about tables, well we're not really on about it, but can I just mention it. Harry and I thought at one stage that if we could find a proper home Oh yes yes I wondered what you were going to say. Pinned And they wouldn't actually cause so much damage to the paint work all the way round didn't we? We ought to devise a scheme and an area So they didn't scratch the wall. That's right yes. Will they fit into the porch? Well They'd never get carried in there I don't think. one particular place They would but I doubt if any did you not? Well we just thought somewhere at the back where we could pin them against the wall. I think that's sensible. Well basically two up the wall to lean against basically. And probably a strap that comes round Some sort of clip to hold them in so that erm Every time a table it scratch the wall. Is it agreed that we ask Richard if he could deal with this for us please? We'll devise something Harry. You know you know what you want. You know what you want. Strung up to the ceiling. So as you don't ask me to get the so and so's down. Right. Now the clerk's got any other business down here and the date's two meetings past. No well you see. The annual parish meeting and the annual parish council meeting. Just advise you on the dates of last year. Last year we had the annual parish meeting on the thirtieth of April. Yes. And the annual parish council meeting on the fourteenth of May. Well that's how I've got the corresponding dates. So if you want random dates. If you want to settle them at this meeting. Cos they want settling No I don't they? It's a good idea yes to settle the next meeting. What d'ya mean. Why under any other business for? I saw planning on the A G M on the the You can see what you like. There isn't any there isn't any official but I've got one that I'll show. Can we just deal with this please. Well that comes It came as a great surprise to me for some reason or other . What date are we looking at? May the thirtieth that was a Friday. Yeah you're not tied to them dates at all. Just giving you an idea of when you had them last year. The corresponding date is the twenty ninth of April. How does that strike anybody? Yes. And that's for the parish meeting . Twenty ninth of April Is that it. Well we're all here tonight so that if we Yes. Twenty ninth of April. Start earlier. Seven thirty. Nor normally starts at seven thirty does it? Yes for the parish meeting. Well the parish meeting doesn't last very long as a rule does it? Ten minutes and it'll be done. Nobody comes. Might be a surge. Harry and a couple of other faithfuls and that's it. What time? Seven thirty? Seven thirty then. Annual parish meeting. Annual parish meeting. Seven thirty P M. And then the annual parish council meeting was May the fourteenth last year so the corresponding date will be Be the thirteenth. May the thirteenth. How does that strike you? Right. Which is the one where we carry on and have the meeting afterwards. The annual parish meeting The annual parish meeting yes. is the reporting one isn't it and we elect officers at that one do we? No no. This is the one we elect offic officers at. Officers at mm. Yes. This is the thirteenth. So what do we call this one ? parish council meeting early so that we get a committee meeting . Well we do have a committee we do have a council meeting afterwards yeah. So the annual parish The one you're on about is the A G M isn't it? The parish meeting I thought that's. We have a parish council meeting afterwards don't we? Yes. That's what I thought. Just on a technicality why do we need the two like this? Beg pardon? Why do we why can't we combine them with the parish council meeting? Because we've always done it that way. Well the annual parish we do have to have an annual parish meeting. That's statute. And we do have to have a meeting of an annual meeting of the council to elect your officers. I mean it's the annual meeting of the council that agrees the finance and everything else. Well you can have a committee meeting But we usually have we usually have a council meeting So you can start that bit earlier. Well you can start it at seven o'clock if you like I don't mind. What time I should have started the annual parish meeting at seven and followed by Is it agreed we start at seven? That's what you're talking about now is it? Parish meeting. The annual parish meeting on the twenty ninth of April seven o'clock. Followed by a parish council meeting. Yes it'll be followed by a parish council meeting. And then we're looking at May the thirteenth for the annual meeting of the parish council. Don't they call that the annual general meeting? Yes. That's at seven thirty then. Last year. Right. Now then. As you wanted some as you as you wanted some planning Glynis I haven't got any official plan this is just unbelievable planning for you but what I can show you is some sketches which the gentleman who bought the plot at Grey Lane brought to show me asked my opinion. I said it's no good asking my opinion I said it looks alright to me. I said, Take them to Hall and ask the planning officers if they'd be acceptable to them. Because it was agreed it should be a single storey dwelling and he's going for he wants a chalet type bungalow. But it it's sort of built into the ground apparently so that it'd be pretty low down. So I said, Well before you have your plans drawn up go and. He said, Well would I show the plans to the parish council and see what their reaction is. So there you are. I can't remember what their names are but somebody tells me they're are the most extraordinarily noisy family. They're not. They're er they live in at the present time and er his name's Paul and he's the main Skoda dealer in Nottingham. It isn't built into the built into the ground it's just following the the the level of the ground. It isn't built into the ground . Didn't know there was that much profit in a Skodas. And that with it being a chalet bungalow the roof goes up Their chain is in Nottingham. Yeah Where the hospital is up there. But that's not the main office they've got a big one. But I thought we wanted to keep this a low profile bungalow and that's pushing it up the same as the other one in Grey Lane went up. That's right that's right. And he isn't showing a ground level. No no. He isn't saying this is ground level at all. All he's doing is following the lie of the ground. That's a lot of artistic licence then. I I object to this. Yeah. I think we'd better switch off at this stage. Come in. Come in. Come in. mix up there. Aye. Well. She shouted, Mary , and two of us rose up. I said to the other one, are you Mary too? She said, aye . I said, which one ? Oh dear. . Well now. What can I do for you today? Oh it's just it's not getting any better. You're still having trouble? Aye. And er last time I came it was Doctor and he changed Yes. the tablets, and it's even worse now. And he put me off the Mhm. and I don't feel the same for off of that. I feel as if I have to use my spray more. I seemed right doing, alright drying my feet now and not my . You shouldn't have to use your spray more Mary because that's Mhm. Well I seem to be all tight Right. here. Right. Aha. I know how it is? My chest. Aye. I know how to do this. We'll Mhm. get you sorted out. Aha. Even just, usually I used to maybe just have it once. Sometimes I didn't even need it at all I could walk about shopping and everything. Aha. And this I've had to take it twice while I've been doing some shopping now. I feel as if my, it's funny it's not a pain but it's like my, I'm just going like that Aha. Right. Aha. And he put me off of that the other ones you gave me with the, what was it? Hexapol or something? Hexapol Aye. And you Yes. I, with, with this Monit Aye. that he gave you Aha. that would have fought with the Hexapol There would have, there would have been a reaction between Aye. the two Aha. so that you you're safer without that. Without that the ma without the Hexapol And you're better I've a taking the Monit Aye well the Hexapol with me. it wasn't doing me any good because it was It wasn't doing any good. still sore but it was still the same even with that. Even with that. Right. Mhm. Let's put you on this stuff and that'll get your circulation . At least they have spray now had a spray I don't know how long it is I've had it. And that's how I'd be You're I mean I never went through it much, but this last fortnight This is your . I've been using it all the time. get another one ? Yeah. No bother. No bother at all Mhm. that. It's usually in after you go I was never near the doctor myself . Well that's And this way he gets him a good life. If they hadn't had tha the accident to his Yes. it was on the er the femur? his femur that's Aha. right. And that's er bosses are after meeting and this is the one that's er That's going away. that's sore. That's going away. Well let's I feel that though I'd been dawdling it wouldn't have been so bad . let's cure you. Let's cure you. Ah. What do So stop, stop, stop, stop your Monit Stop the Monit Stop them altogether. Aha. And what about And s the Batol Mm? No. Don't touch the Batol No. Aha. These are pink tablets yo you start Mhm. taking them one in the morning and one at teatime and one at bedtime. Aha. That's three times a day. Three times a day. Three times a day. Aha. And, and come back up and see me in in three Aye. Aye. weeks and and they'll you know that er they've got ? No. You stop Wee, wee pink ones? stop that. Would Deborah need to then? I've been taking them all the time. No. You can stop them now. Stop the . Stop, stop the now. Mhm. Yes. Mhm. Stop that altogether. And I've got all these other pills I meant to bring them out and hand them in at the chemists Ah. First time you're passing. Aye. the chemists even? That'll do fine Mary. Aha. the aches the aches have been all I all got, I all got, no. I used the last of that er Minit or whatever you call it,Monit but I've got in the house and I've got Aha. Well first time, first time you're coming up to the supermarket, drop it, drop them in I just drop them in here ? Aye. Drop them in. Aha. No, no harm done. Because I say it's stupid you know to destroy them or fling them away Oh aye. or that. Oh aye. Eighteen pounds for a box is Aye. I know. Aha. expensive so throw I meant in fact to put them in my bag when I was coming here and I forgot. First time you're coming. First time you're coming up. No bother. Thank you. Thank you. But that should do the trick Mary And I and it'll settle it'll settle this as well. And will I come back again or will I? Three weeks. Three weeks? Do you work? You know back here to see how Aye. you're doing. Because it's alright doing my round the ankle and all? Yeah. Well we need to Sore. get skip ropes for you. I need to I need exercise. Right Mary. Right. Thank you. Okay. Cheerio now. Cheerio. So tell me about when you first moved in, Mr isn't it? Yes. Erm, in nineteen fifty one to can you remember what it was like when you first moved in? Yes, there were er, I think there was one, two, three, four houses, four or five houses that were occupied before we came in, they were still building The Chantry incidently and er you know it was a it was quite a shock to us and the wife was a bit upset you know when having to, we came from Plymouth actually, Devon, and er the wife was a bit er down you know all the night travelling all night with the children Oh with three of them I remember that You remember it? Yeah Yeah yeah, cos didn't you and of course we arrived in Harlow on the train and we couldn't see any new buildings anywhere, you know near Harlow Mill Yes and er, they were coming up and went across to get a drink of lemonade and it was a bloody hot day, really, you know a midsummer day and erm, we went across to this kind of cafe place that's opposite the station and I saw two men with rubber boots on so I went over and ask them where the New Town was, and they told us where, walk up the road till you come to the lights, turn right, follow the lane and you'll come to the New Town erm And that was the old Netteswell Lane wasn't it? Did you come by car? No by train We never had a car had we? So you walked? We walked from the station yeah it's Harlow Yeah we walked as far as the lights Harlow Mill as it was then on the what was then the A eleven Oh that was Harlow Town Station then wasn't it? It's called Harlow Town Called Harlow Town and Burnt Mill but now it's the other way round Yes and erm, we'd got there and a young lady came along delivering milk you know with a big milk float and she put the, the twins Brenda and No I thought, no er no mother, you and mum, I didn't mum sat next to you in the front, this, she sat you two on top of the On the float? Yeah, cos we had and Keith and I walked and mum couldn't walk any further could she? So you had three children? Yes, mhm And your age's what nine, and you have a twin? Yeah I have a twin brother and erm Another nine and a brother fourteen and Katie was five years old well he was fourteen the following August yeah he was five years old he was that August we arrived, mm and er when we got here of course it was just, we went down this lane Eh of course which is now Netteswell Lane and But didn't you come up a few days before us? You were here before us weren't you? No, no, no you've got it the wrong way round, I went, I brought you here and then I had to go back cos I was in the Royal Marine Police Yeah, but, but didn't you when you got here they'd given you , don't you remember? Ah, no and you went to and somebody was living in there no, no love, because wasn't built then It was dad, that bit was built Oh well, no what happen was don't you remember you had to go to the housing office just before we left Plymouth they altered it to , I knew it was the Oh It was A hundred and eleven A hundred and eleven That's right it was right opposite the pub now, but that was all fields then weren't it? That was all fields, yeah So your wife hadn't seen the house Oh no before you actually moved in? no we didn't know what we were going to No it was a long way to come from Plymouth you know so we didn't know. We came on a, I think it was on a Friday or Saturday morning and I had to go back Sunday night, cos I was on duty on the Monday back in Plymouth, and I did a month in Plymouth, er, a month or five weeks no longer, and I came up each weekend to see them, my wife was left there then. Didn't It must of been, it must of been very difficult for her? She had everything to do really Yeah, I think, I think she's exhilarating shop hours marvellous really, you know, to do it and all our shopping was down at the Old Town, you had to go down this lane to the Old Town if you wanted a stamp Yeah, the nearest shops was the Old Town or anything but we got The nearest shops and that of course were Epping or Bishop's Stortford Yeah but with Bob and I, Bob and I went to erm Mark Hall House That's right it isn't there any more , beautiful old house like Moot House, similar to Moot House wasn't it? Mm And they converted that into a school infant's school remember the old servants quarters for er Yeah they made a, built a playground that's all they did, just had a playground for the original Mark Hall the rest of it was just the original house, you know, it was a beautiful place, why they pulled it down Yeah, yeah I suppose, I suppose it was falling down Yeah but, it seems such a shame cos er big double gates you went in, you know, it was lovely, erm where did Keith go to school then? Newport Grammar school Oh yeah , yeah, he didn't go to school in Harlow he passed his eleven plus as it was then and er he went to a school called Regent Street Grammar school in Plymouth and when we moved in here I had to go to Holly House, I think they call it Yeah at Loughton to the Council Education Offices to see what school I could get him in, you see I wanted a good school for him because he was showing the ability, you know, er, and er eventually I went to Harlow Grammar school that's what it was called then Yeah and it was er a kind of public school A boys' school a boys' school and the headmaster there advised me not to put him there, he said send him to Newport Grammar school it's the best school in Essex, best grammar school in Essex and he said that my two boys go there Poor Keith had to go to this , he had to go the station every day on his bike Yeah and go all the way to Newport didn't he? Yeah To school every day It sounds like a long way? Well it's, it is quite a long way Well he had a, Newport was on the line, er Cambridge line so it wasn't too bad He didn't have to change , no, but, how, how far's Newport then? Move to Harlow? Well I mo moved because promotion was in the line for me, I was in the Royal Marine Police in island depot in Plymouth and er I'd been put on plain clothes work and I'd been doing acting sergeant you know when the sergeant was off sick and all that business and er I'd put, been put in for this to move because we had a two bedroom bungalow but the twins were getting big and I realized that we'd have to have another bedroom you know, very soon and er , this seemed an opportunity to get a house and also in Plymouth, that Plymouth was a naval town, you see, there was still those days there was still kind of a, a lower deck of sons, what they call lower deckers, in other words you know people in the lower deck of the navy, their sons didn't really have much, ever have much chance of getting into places like Dartmouth College or Cramwell to do as cadets, well the headmaster at Regent Street School had said to me that Keith was very keen on flying, he was aeroplane mad you see, and, he wanted to go in the Royal Air Force, well he said to me he said oh no put him in the Navy and as a chief art as an artificer, so I said oh no, I said if he goes in the Navy or the service I want him to go in the front door not like me the back door, I had ambition for him anyhow that made me feel there was no future in Plymouth for that, so this opportunity came, I came and when I got here they didn't carry any sergeants so I would of had to move again if I wanted promotion, which I wasn't prepared to do for this, mainly for his education, unfortunately the didn't get much thought then like cos they weren't showing any exceptional Life always good enough for us abilities at school and er So you can, so you got a promotion and you were working in the Navy when you came I'd left the Navy Oh I see I'd left my pension from the Navy, but I'd gone into what was then known as the police, er familiarly dockyard police. So you didn't actually work in Harlow? Yes, you, you came with the Admiralty didn't you? I came with the Admiralty here but, they, they had a factory here There was an Admiralty factory in Harlow Oh a research laboratory in West Road and Cos everybody who moved into Harlow moved because there was a job here Oh that's right oh yes, yes you got your job really through the you got the house through the job you got the house through the your job I should say Yeah And you were allocated this house in The Chantry? Pardon? You were allocated the house in The Chantry That's right you didn't choose Before we came here, no Oh no, no, no, but we moved, how long we, were we at a hundred and eleven dad? Cos we moved to ninety five, wasn't built when we moved into a hundred and eleven That's it a hundred and eleven was a three bedroom house, then we moved into a four bedroom house didn't we That's right at ninety five, but I don't know how long we were, how long were we at hundred and eleven? Oh a matter of months four, six months So it wasn't long , no it couldn't of been very long Oh it couldn't be much longer than that , my father, my father retired he was a publican in the village Oh that's right yeah in the North Riding of Yorkshire and he retired and he went and er lived in a bungalow belonging to er it was then Sir Ever Everard retired, retired who had an estate and there were St Trinian's incidentally er,inciden that's where the name came from for the books and friend of theirs and relation of his wrote the book I don't know, something like that, and anyhow eventually I got They came worried about them being so far as they've the only child, and talked them into come down and live with us, so then I applied and got a move to just after it was built, which was a four bedroom house. So that your father could come to live with you? So that my father could come down and live with me. Yeah, and we lived there for a long time didn't you, you stayed in that house for a long, long time Oh yes till after I was married mm I think you were all married from that house Before we'd all, we were all married, yeah yeah in ninety five and er We've been in this house for about twelve years We moved into a two bedroom house, but it's only up the road at you know,you're really not very far away are you? No , well we had a four bedroomed house and they were all married, mother and father had gone back to Yorkshire Yes, yeah my father was dead, died in the Yorkshireman and er, he missed his cricket and what have you. Well tell me what it was like for you, from your point of view, erm, erm coming to a New Town with a teenage son because most of the couples who came either didn't have any children or were just about to have baby That's right so what was it like, you know, from your point of view and, and first, yes Well to tell you the truth I wasn't very keen, I er, I felt that we made a mistake Yeah Neither of them did want that did you? You felt it ought to be because the feeling I had nobody for at least another generation would really have the roots in Harlow, that was looking at my children Mm you see, and I felt myself well they're, they're Plymouth, they were all born in Devonport and Plymouth Mm the oldest boy Devonport and that's where their roots were Mm do you follow? Yes, of course So coming here it felt as though we'd uprooted and, they would never get their roots down because they weren't really Yeah but I've always felt, I really feel as if Oh you've always Harlow is Yeah you know, where I belong, I, I don't quite honestly don't really like Harlow New Town any more, I al I did up until about oh eight or nine years ago I thought it was a great place and all, all the cockneys that said, you know, oh I'd love to be back in London, I thought they were barmy, you know to live in London the di the difference is, I mean my husband's a cockney and he wouldn't, would never, well now he would never go back to London you know, it's a dump, he, he likes Harlow, but er I think I don't like it now because it's expanded so much, you know when we, when we were first here, mind you when we first moved in it was ever so difficult for us kids because, there, there was the Old Town kids versus the New Town kids and they hated us, they really Really didn't like us, oh no, no, no matter where we went there was always, there wasn't trouble like there is now, I mean there was no violence as such you know, but we thought it was at the time, you know, they weren't very nice to us at all Mm and of course we was, I suppose we weren't very nice to them. Did you mix in the school or was it just Erm er New Town children in the school? no it was really New Town school children, because there was Forbert and Barnard's school down the Old Town and that's where the Old Town, all the Old Town people went, children went, so really Mark Hall was just New Town children you know, and then when, when we were eleven and had to go to another school we, er there was no comprehensive school in Harlow then, er we had to get on a bus and go to Chingford that was, didn't we? Yeah We used to have to catch the bus every morning and go to Chingford to school until Mark Hall was built and, erm and there was only one part of Mark Hall school built when we went there, there was only a few classrooms and er, it's all grew up, the school grew up around us you know it's a bit How did you feel, cos, you said that you can remember the first day that you arrived Yeah I know can you recall that? Yeah, oh yeah I remember it quite well I, I can remember that I, the only parts of Harlow I liked were the country lanes, I didn't like all the new houses, but then I'd been brought up in the country Mm you know Mm Excuse me This came from the parents of the children in the Old Town, because of far as I can gather from talking to the people in the Old Town that er, oh course, like everywhere else, like the building of Stansted Airport or the, you know, there was people who were against, I mean the beautiful countryside spoilt by a New Town, so they had these committees and brigadier and these people, you know, er had a deputation and all this business and I think some of that rubbed off on the children and, and you've Yes got this er, not, not hate, it was just a kind of Resentment? There was, there was a resentment resentment to the new children , that I should of I suppose I can understand it now, I mean it must of been a lovely place, and then to have all these new houses going up you know, but erm, I mean there was some lovely, lovely lanes Oh yeah often used to get up in the morning and look out of the bedroom window and see a pheasant in the back garden Yeah, which you don't see now and rabbits you know . So you've still got a feeling of the countryside then? Oh it was yeah, yeah it was nice, I mean yeah I mean you had to go across fields to move house didn't you? Pardon? You used to have to go across fields Oh yes to Moot House Yeah and yet you know now it's just up the road First Avenue was , First Avenue was built it seemed a long way away er, all of this side, er you know First Avenue do you? Yeah Well all this side of First Avenue of course was all country all this was fields and corn fields and what have you Most of the other side was as well and woods, copse, odd copse here and there Yeah there was just the church there beautiful, we used to go for some lovely walks didn't we? Yeah Walk down to the river, it was all countryside Yeah from where we lived from there apart from the fact they were building a few factories then A few factories yeah the other side of the factories was all country but you down to the river you know you could walk down Netteswell Lane to Burnt Mill Station, it was lovely down there Little Burnt Mill Station Burnt Mill Station of course, yeah all the lanes around it, you know, of course they, cos Mrs next door to you lived in She lived in those one of those houses Yes, oh yes she by the station, her husband worked on the railway there. He was the signal man at Dartmoor was Yeah Alf, yeah. If you can go back to the first day that you arrived Mhm when you first saw the house for the very, very first time and when your wife saw the house, what was the reaction? Well it wasn't er the wife it was a bit of a setback, we had a bungalow you see, a small bungalow which was in a very, very nice part of Plymouth, well on the outskirts of Plymouth actually, almost in the country and er, to come and find this, well to her it'd be like a, a terraced house, her mind went back to the old days in Manchester where she came from with the old terraced houses and I think she visualized that then to go in a house that had a, a square room, do you follow? And that, er it was kind of and the garden was small cos we had it, a quite big garden and you know things like that, I think, and the travelling and everything I think got her down a bit, I know she sat down and had a cry, yeah. And how long did it take before you felt settled in? Oh a long time, er, matter of years really before I could settle down at, as I say to me it was roots Yes that's what it amounted to Yes and you see then I started thinking what I should of done when I, like everyone else, thinking what I should of done Mm which is ridiculous really, you don't live for the past, but you did think, I think everybody did Yeah you know, thought back to, if I'd of only gone to Yorkshire, gone back to Manchester, I'd of felt my roots, see I was born in Manchester, and Yes Yorkshire prairie on a Yorkshire farm and you know what I mean, and now I go to Manchester and say thank god I didn't come here Yeah er, because to me it's a filthy city Mm and, even the village, Farnham village, it's all new houses around it now you, it, it, it's all altered, it's, everything's altered. Do you feel different, did you, do you feel differently about Harlow now in retrospect? Oh yes I can put up with Harlow now, I'm not er, I'm not over the world, over the, you know That's probably cos we were brought you like it we were always brought up in the country, you know Yes I mean it's, it's, it's expanded so much innit? I mean erm Sumners and all that over there, Staple Tye Mm. What was the accommodation like in The Chantry and in the four bedroom house in which you spent most of your life, what, what was that, what was that like? Well it was nice Biggish house innit? a big house There's four bedrooms an end house it was quite a good but family house, but I mean for space and that sort of Yeah thing, but to me it always looked like a barracks Some of the neighbours are still there, Mr and Mrs is still next door Next door people who you know that were in it when they were still brand new who moved in and just about the same time as we did Yeah they did when it was new and they're still there , their family, mm It's got, it's got a block of flats at the side hadn't it? And a maisonette It was an in-house , but it wasn't Yeah they were building them when we got there weren't they? Yeah Was the block of flats, erm, what was that called? Er well I don't know, isn't that, they're maisonettes, they've got that big eye on the front I don't I don't know if you, I don't know if it's still there, I mean I don't know it's a dead end road so it's called night and day isn't it? The eye is it? Yeah Is it, it's like a big eye, and it was black one side and white the other side and the black side had a white pupil and the white the other side had a black one Night and day Yes that was Mm the idea And it was sort of quite a thing when that was, went up, and ooh it was so awful they had some terrible things in this town didn't they? the statues and things you know, but something, they've got some nice things now, they had that big statue outside the church That was that was moved weren't it? In it in the, in the, in a museum or something now isn't it? They vandalized it it's up the town centre somewhere I think No it's, I think it was taken away to a museum wasn't it? I know the one you mean I can't think of the name Yeah It's the a Greek name Yeah, but I don't know what it was called child, man or a woman holding a child Oh yes, that's the one Oh that one's just outside the library Oh is it? I thought it was Mhm Getting mixed up Mm but to me all all that was there was Mark Hall House, wasn't there, the, the church and the vicarage and erm Moot House, you know there was, there was nothing else, it was just fields everywhere else It was all fields it was really lovely, but then The, the house that you come from had a bathroom and had all the conveniences Yeah, yeah so really you weren't coming into accommodation which was a step Oh no, well up for you like a lot of them here? well, no, probably mum and dad didn't think so, but No, no you see that but Bob and I did, I could, I could remember the day we moved in to a hundred and eleven er we'd never, never been upstairs in a house before you see we'd been brought up in a bungalow and we'd never ever been upstairs and the thoughts of going upstairs to bed, you know, was fantastic Mm and, all, all we kept saying on the train coming down Bob and I oh I hope we can slide down the bannisters Bannisters And could you? No cos they bent round and we had a tie, we did but it was only a little bannister you know, we tried it What do you think was so particular about having stairs? I don't know, it was just a novelty, we'd never ever, I remember an, an aunt of ours that lived in Plymouth near us, she had a house with an upstairs, but she had a downstairs toilet, so we never got to go upstairs you know it's just one of those stupid things I suppose, I, I thought it was great and another attraction was I think one of the main reasons you got us to really want to come to Harlow was the fact that we'd have a television Yeah we'd never, like I mean, I can remember in Plymouth dad saying when we get there, erm we'll buy a television, we'll have a television and we didn't know what he was talking about and he said it's a wireless with pictures, you know, and our minds were boggling we just couldn't understand it, and then of course that was another bit of bribery got us to come. Anything you remember when you first saw a television? Yes, yeah, when you had one delivered, that's the first time we'd ever seen one wasn't it? Oh yes we'd sat there and didn't mum have a new cooker? Mum had a new cooker yeah Yeah , yeah Was it gas or electric? Gas Gas it was Yeah, she was over the moon with it though, wasn't she? What? She was over the moon with it Oh yes, aye she'd never seen anything like it, but I think we had quite a lot of new furniture didn't we? Yeah quite a bit We'd brought some with us odd things, well of course bed linen, a lot of bedrooms and that to furnish and Well tell me about the furniture that you brought Oh we've got You've still got your suite haven't you? Pardon? Still got your three piece suite We've still got the same and the dining one and the dining one and the sideboard, yeah When did you buy it? Nineteen thirty seven, thirty, thirty seven, bought it in Plymouth and our dining room suite, I'll always remember this, cost twenty eight guineas, not the dining, I'm sorry the three piece suite Three piece suite twenty eight guineas, and when we got to Harlow I had it recovered by firm in Sawbridgeworth, twenty eight guineas To have it recovered, mm yes the same price But it and we still use the same dining table, sideboard, chairs, dining chairs, mind you they, they that kind to of thrown out, reluctant to do it They wouldn't, no they we had a lot of affection for it really and, I mean we've had it so long and it was the first furniture we had when we married You wouldn't do that now, would you? And er what else Do you remember when we we've got a bedroom suite as well apart from the gentleman's wardrobe cos we had them during the blitz and that, burnt all my wardrobe Mm and side of the bed, but we get In Harlow? No No, no this was in Plymouth Oh and during the, I was away actually I wasn't there, but er, it was all burnt so I did away with that and we managed to do the bed up somehow Mm it's still going, we've still got the dressing table the big wardrobe Can you remember what the make of the furniture was? Well I don't know what make it was but it came from the house, the furnishing company of Union Street, Plymouth I can't remember the shop. Do you remember when you got rid of one of your armchairs last year or the year before, they bought two new fireside chairs and one of the armchairs nearly had it We had to get rid of them they were nearly collapsing and the men came, delivered the new ones and erm, one of them, er oh you said would you take the old one and they said, yeah, fine you know, dad said well it'll take both of you, oh no, no, I can do that, he couldn't even lift it you know cos they were so solid and two of them had a heck of a job didn't they? Yeah Getting it out and that was just an armchair don't know what they'd do if they had to move the settee, but erm, that's the difference in Well we had to higher, higher seats really, well these, these are alright but when you get to my age Can't get in and out of them so easily have a job getting out of them and er you know more or less the higher chair's Mm better for us And the dining room suite is it oak? Oh it's veneered, veneered oak Mm it's not er solid oak, it's veneered, mm, it's oak yeah And when you came to Harlow you said that you bought some new furniture Yeah we bought a new bedroom suite I think that's about the first thing I had a new bedroom suite didn't I? Oh yes and that cos when I got married I took it with me didn't I? That's right Do you still have it? And then my mother and father came down in the four bed when we moved to ninety five in the four bedroom yes, they brought their bedroom suite down with them. And did you buy the bedroom suite in Harlow? Erm, just trying to think where we bought it Sheratons? Er what Sheratons in the Stow? No I bought my dining room suite, this Ercol dining room suite in there, I've still got it, yeah that was a long Oh yeah the shops have changed quite a lot in the The Stow haven't they? Yes when we came of course the Stow was er you know Yeah it was just a little had a little trees weren't there to make The Stow. We thought it was quite something when we got the shops weren't it? I remember it happening, but I can't remember somebody came to open it, did somebody come to open The Stow you know Forget now somebody came to open I remember there were invitations given out to go to it, sherry party, I had an invitation but I didn't go for some reason Mm I was working or something, but erm, two of Mr went, you know that neighbour of mine Mm So when you bought the bedroom suite, erm, can you remember if erm, what the purchase tax was on it then? Oh I couldn't, I'm sorry Can you remember, it, obviously it wasn't rationing any more, there wasn't utility No, no any more at that time was there? No I think utility had more or less finished then It finished at the end of fifty two Yeah, I remember, I remember having a ration book for sweets That went on for quite a long time Oh yes, oh yeah, oh yeah but the actual rationing on furniture ended, at the end of nineteen fifty two but they brought in something called schedule T We must of bought that suite before then Before then, yes, we must of bought it when we moved in cos I, I mean I wasn't without a bed We did, we bought it as soon as we moved in because er You must of had Must of had one straight away, yeah Yeah you, I'd of told you mum should of come up, she wouldn't come would she? She'd probably remember She'd remember things like that I tell you yes I'm very interested in that particular period just before, just, when you get the after maturity of when they had this strange very schedule D and er the tax, the purchase tax Mm Mm and all that sort of thing and how it affected people buying furniture because there was a very high luxury tax That's right highly expensive furniture Mm sixty six and two thirds Yeah but the single bedroom suite I remember that I wouldn't know that And you can't remember where you bought it? It must of been fifty one, June I bet mum's still got the bill somewhere it must of been at the end in the autumn at, at least of fifty one I wouldn't be a bit surprised, I'll try and find out for you I wonder if I know sixty one weren't they? Mm, mm You know and the stuff we had that, cos we've changed it all. Can you tell me about the light fittings that you bought when you first got married. I'm trying to think I got, oh god, that was Pennymead cos we lived with mum and dad for three months until we got a maisonette in Pennymead Mm, mm erm, I can remember the three piece suite it was that uncut moquette stuff, you don't see it now do you? It was grey and, and mustard, it sounds revolting but we, we were a bit, I suppose it was the time we had a purple carpet, we had an orange wall, do you remember that living room? Yeah You needed sunglasses to go in it, erm oh you didn't really actually it looked, it looked alright but it was very modern, my mum and dad didn't think it was up to much you know we thought it was great. Why did you cho why did you want to have modern? Well I don't know it's just what we liked at the time you know, we liked anything that was considered a bit way out then, you know Mm and we had er, I mean we had a bright orange swivel chair and when that came out it was called the Orbit or something, something really weird and it had a big back on it and we thought it was great I mean, I think it's awful now, some of the things we had, I'll have to try and find some photographs cos I've got a case full of photographs upstairs Yeah I've got a lot of I've got lots of them inside that maisonette you know when That would interest me very much with my er eldest son's nearly nineteen Oh yes, you've got those cos when he was a baby we took loads of photographs inside. And you said that you had an orange wall, only one orange wall? On one orange wall, yeah Which wall was it? I can't remember what was on, it was a plain, well, we, we had er french windows with a balcony, it was an upstairs maisonette and the wall that end was orange and my father-in- law made us the cocktail bar, do you remember that cocktail bar That's right, yeah you made us with white quilting on the front, oh it sounds awful now, but did, got rid of that about a year, twelve, eighteen months ago Oh and I had sort of marble on the, formica marble contact, that contact stuff on top, purple carpet, er mustard and grey suite, that was an odd shape that suite wasn't it? It had sort of round chairs Yeah you know those round chairs with, everything had those legs, those screw on legs, everything the coffee table didn't it? The suite, everything had screw on legs and we bought erm a radiogram, that was a Pye, beautiful thing it was, it was ever so expensive then, I might even have the bill for that somewhere, we bought that at the town centre in Laytoners was it? Erm Yeah, Laytoners that was my twenty first birthday we bought that on, so that was before Gary was born and er, that had black screw on legs as well, the televisions had black screw, oh we didn't have a television we had a second hand television about a year after we were married and I remember Coronation Street starting, that started about when we got married. What year did you get married in? Nineteen sixty one, er, our anniversary was a few weeks ago, twenty one years we've been married, but er Have you er we were, we were furniture made, you know, all we thought about was the home and in fact once we couldn't afford any wall paper we were decorating so George painted the wall white and we got saucepan lids, and even the dustbin lid and with er, er, a black pen, felt type pen I suppose although felt pens weren't out then I don't know that I don't think but that sort of thing, but he drew black circles and triangles all over this white wall it looked, I've got a photograph of that Was that that looked fantastic and everyone said oh god he's so artistic you know and he's a butcher he wasn't really but we just used to sit down and think of all these ideas you know Where did you get these ideas from? Well they, er nowhere, we didn't get them from anywhere we just used to think them up and everyone thought we were potty didn't they? I bet John liked it John, George's brother George's brother, yeah, he's quite a bit artistic ain't he? Yeah, well I think George is actually George is I mean when he does his window displays you've never seen anything like it, you know,so, I think he's got quite er, he's quite good at things like that, but erm, we've tamed down a bit now. So you were considered daring were you? Oh yeah, yeah, where the furniture was concerned yeah, we only liked it if people came in and said oh my god what have you done now,you know . What kind of curtains did you have? Oh, I, I can remember when fibreglass curtains first came out we bought some of those terrible things they just went in holes, you know if you touched them too much they just went in holes. They were brittle? Yeah Mm and if you washed them you mustn't put clothes pegs in them cos the pegs would make holes in them Mm fancy having stuff like that Was it a sheer or a solid material this fibreglass? I don't know what you mean Was it like a see through, like a net kind of curtain, no Oh no, no , no it's the big curtains, I think one we had great big green leaves on Mm do you remember those? Terrible Well I liked them when we bought them Mum and I used to go in and say why it looks alright and when we got outside Ain't it awful ain't it awful living with that and then when we got rid of that purple carpet We got we brought a bright orange carpet, do you remember that bright orange er , when that first came out? With the, with the erm that big white cat on it, what make was that? They used to advertise it with a big white fluffy cat Not Sue and Lord Oh it might of been Mm don't know, but we had this bright orange carpet, mind you even we couldn't live with that for too long. So that was after the purple carpet? Yeah oh we loved all the gold furniture and, that's all we used to do was walk round looking at furniture and things Where did you buy the furniture? Oh mainly in Harlow Mm, mm I can remember we went to erm, oh cos we moved out of Harlow didn't we when Nick was eleven months old so that's about fifteen years ago and lived in Hatfield for three years, so, and we used to go to Welwyn Department Store then and, and look at stuff. I can remember one standard lamp we had, it was really weird and people used to say that'll be alright if you were landing a plane cos it had spotlights, I mean now, they, erm, in fact you can still buy the same sort of thing, but then it was so way out Yeah it had sort of round shade with a bulb and the bu but it looked like an eye you know because the bulb came out and you moved these three things around, you can still buy them now, but er, then they were a bit way out. And this was when you were living in Hatfield? Yes So that would of been that would be about fifteen years ago Yes, nineteen sixty eight or so Mm A very nice house in Hatfield weren't it? Yeah, it was a lovely house yeah but we wanted to come back to Harlow you see, so we did like, well we always liked Harlow, really the only reason we went to erm er Hatfield was the fact that Harlow Council no way would move us out of that maisonette, we had two boys and we lived upstairs and Gary had all sorts of accidents on those stairs, in fact we all had because they were outside, erm so in the winter they iced up Mm concrete stairs and, George nearly killed himself on them one morning, but er, and we tried everything to get out of there you know, no one would exchange a two bedroom maisonette for a house and of course I longed for a garden, but, and er George got a job in Hatfield and they offered this three bedroom house The Commission for The New Town, rent was cheaper than here, so we moved over there, but er, as I say we were only there two, three years and we came back again, we were over here , we used to come over here three times a week, when we lived there didn't we? Mm, mm So we got back to Harlow again That wallpaper but erm what was it called again Francis Henry's in this style Yeah erm, cos Mary that still works in there she, her husband worked for either Mr Henry, I can't remember his name, the man that owned it, and I think, I think perhaps they were brothers or something, she, her husband owns it now it's Freyers or something now Yeah, do it yourself there's new yeah, but we used to buy all our wallpaper At The Stow? in there, yeah They use to sell all the paper and all that business then to do erm wallpaper and we , we loved and wallpaper and you, is there, you couldn't see the book anywhere, er probably in London you could, but erm round here you couldn't, but they had the book down here. Er how did you know about it? Well only because we'd seen it in the shop From the shop Yeah And it was only in Well Dave worked in there, George's friend worked in there as well, yes it was, it was expensive wallpaper for then, it was so way out I mean we had red tartan wallpaper in the bathroom, you know you just don't see, er actually they'd be really nice designs now, you just don't see them now and we had er, a bright blue wallpaper that had big circles on it, do you remember that one? Mm That cost us a fortune well we thought so then At that time Yeah Was that in the living room? Yeah, I'd have to try and er see if I've got any of those bills anywhere, I know that that book's upstairs cos erm, we did that cupboard out the other day and I found all the photographs all our old photographs in a box, but the box had fallen to bits, so Mm I'd put them all in an old suitcase and erm, cos I couldn't just put them in there I had to have a look, they're sentimental and that book was in there so I can definitely get you that, but I wouldn't go up in the loft I'm afraid, I'm so scared of creepy crawlies so er, you know, if you, if you want to come back some time when my husband's here I mean he can tell you more about the wallpaper and decorating, and I'll get him to get that out. Can you remember what kind of paint you used? Oh no, he'll tell you that Yeah I wasn't allowed to touch But did you, did a paint brush I tried No painting the kitchen once and I got into so much trouble it took him so long to rub it all off and start again, he made me promise I'd never touch a paint brush again but he I mean, he would definitely be able to tell you what paint he used and Mm, mm because there was a change over to the emulsion wasn't there? Yeah, yeah Hello. pinching . Erm, it's about my back today. Aha. It's for a, a couple of weeks there it wasn't too bad, but now I feel as if it's . What did you do to it? It doesn't look bruised, mind, but it feels, sore to touch or anything? I, I really don't know what I've done. I know times I get it, like maybe just at one side, if I've been sitting in a hard seat Mhm. at a, a particular wee bit if I've been leaning back, Aye. you know, but But this is all over? Right. It's just i i there isn't any bruising. And there's nothing to see? You know, I've I've, well I've looked. The best I can Mhm. and I cannae see any bruising, but it feels It feels all bruised. as though it's all bruised. And in And no and nothing you can think of that started it up? and it's sore like nerves. Like Pins and needles? you know how if you hit your elbow? Aha right. Or er you know into my finger. Into your fingers. You know when I, when I go to lift something, or if I use Mhm. pressing on this finger, Aye, it feels numb. right up Right up the arm. Right. this arm. Right. Er your hand doesn't get swollen or anything like that Cathy, no? You've not seen anything? No, I don't think it's been Nothing at all. swollen or anything. Right. right in into my wrist. Right through? Right. Aye. What about your elbow? Aye, up to my elbow. U u right up to your elbow. Not so bad at the top. Mhm. More down at the bottom. Painful down Right. from my finger up. Now,are you on anything in the way of tablets that could be upsetting your, your system at all? I just got two two bottles the last time I was in, I can't . Nothing? And was one of them not for that and my neck? Mhm. That's Yeah. still a bit sore. Still a bit sore? Right. Mhm. Right. And an odd time it goes really Right. I feel as if it's really deep, Mhm. deep, deep. And then it kind of calms down a wee bit. Then it calms down, right. There's nothing in that that would cause this problem. Is this a sort of neuralgia just Yeah. you know a kind of painkiller I'm taking. No , it's er, no this tingling down to your fingers, that's a different thing Catherine. Erm, right. Is it the same thing? Aye, it's the same thing down your back. Yeah. Coming down my back maybe, and Now the one thing you'll have to watch excuse me excuse me, with these tablets, is anything with alcohol in it. It's liable to make you sick Mhm. if you mix the two. And I've been feeling a wee bit sick. Yeah. Apart from just this. That's right. Like, well, the wee'un's not too good, she's loaded with the cold and sore throat, and been a wee bit sick, too. But today Yeah. I've been feeling a wee bit Yeah. I had something to eat earlier on, and I felt awfully Just sicky. as if I was going to be sick. watch your watch your tummy with this stuff. It's good, but it's you know, it'll fight er with anything, any sort of beer or whisky or any of these things, but it'll also fight with cough bottles. Er and tonic bottles. Because nearly all of them have a very small amount in. So, if you're on anything like that at all, forget it. Leave it off just now Cathy. And what about the till I get you sorted. Tagamet and things? Is that o okay? That's okay. Tagamet's fine. No problem there. The inhalers? Ventolin isn't a problem. Aye, it's only alcohol and things with alcohol in, that you n need to watch Cathy. And can you give me Okay? and that some Tagamet and Ventolin? Mhm. There we are now. And that'll put that right for you. There you are Cathy. Could you give me a, a line? . Er, I had a, a card to go for an X-ray. For the Yes. pain I was having in my side. Yes. But I haven't managed to do it yet. That's okay. That's no problem. Erm should I, should I wait till the pain's First, first time you get a chance. really really bad or anything before I go? No? Just any time? No no. No no. Just first time you get a chance, you go over and get them to X-ray it, and they'll see if there's any damage at the back there. To try and find out what's going on. Turn you into a human being. You're not kidding . That's what it feels like Well especially with the wee one being well, ill, I mean well she's up all night,. Turn you int turn you into a human being. You cannae be upset with her, because she hasn't . She can't help it. She can't Aye well, you look after her, that's the main thing. Keep her right. Mm. Turn her into a human being. And then she can do me. That's right. Right, Catherine. Okay now. Cheerio just now. So, one final technical point election expenditure. Erm in local elections as again in, in parliamentary or general elections there's a limit as to what a candidate can spend. At the moment that limit's a hundred and fifty pound per ward or division. Plus three pence per vote Er which you might think that again sounds odd and finicky but by the way note I said between w er er it applies to both ward and division. We're aware of that distinction are we not? What's a ward? Well that's what somebody stands be elected To s for what, to be elected to what? To the council. What council? District council. Good. What's a division? It must be county Correct. You represent a ward at district council level or metropolitan council level. You represent a division at county council level. A division is a grouping together of wards. We have the example in Harlow I've forgot, how many councils are there in Harlow, thirty six, thirty eight something? Yeah, it's thirty six isn't it? Got to be because of the election . Erm they all represent an individual ward. There are I think it is what, four county council Harlow so wards group together to become county council divisions. Yeah? Where does that word come from, ward? No-one's ever asked! it's probably Anglo-Saxon. Okay erm further election expenditure. Election expenditure is the responsibility of the political agent. Oh agents exist in different forms really, erm I'm gonna be, we'll be mentioning the notion of political agents in central government later er in, in, in ce in general elections later on. Erm but there is a similarity in both er elections yeah. Anyone standing for election at local government level has to have an election agent. However you can be your own agent. The agent has to fill in the financial returns has to send in a report of financial expenditure. Normally of course a party will appoint a single agent. In other words, at local election, at local election time the Conservative Party will have X candidates standing. There will be a, a Conservative Party appointed agent who will act on behalf of all those candidates and simply fill in the election expenses The accounts are submitted to the returning officer. It's an offence to er exceed the er expenditure. Okay, now here's something coming up that is not only conf it's confusing to students, it's even more confusing to er er the general public. And this is what we can entitle er the electoral sequence. Big diagram coming up. Okay at the top of there, eighty four and ninety four, they're years believe it or not. And down here we've got the names of the different types of council. At the top, county council second metropolitan councils, that is all metropolitan councils that is of course if you remember, a metropolitan council in the area, in, in the area of the old former Mer Merseyside county council, the metropolitan councils would be Liverpool, Sefton, Wirral , Saint Helens, Southport, now they're examples of metropolitan er councils. So metropolitan councils, and here's where the confusions begin to creep in metropolitan councils and some non-metropolitan councils, I E district councils so they're in a separate ca separate category with this electoral sequence. Then we have most non-metropolitan district councils. And finally London boroughs. Right before I fill in some of the details on this again an important point to grasp coming up. In general elections we, we don't normally know for sure until a few weeks beforehand what the date of the election is going to be. All you really know about general, about the general election is that it's gotta be held before the end of parliament's statutory life of five years. Yeah? And we had an example of that, a good example this year of course with erm that in that, in the spring of this year John Major erm had to call an election before June twentieth I think the date was because by that time then parliament would have automatically been dissolved. Yeah? And John Major chose to er erm call the election, dissolve, ask for the dissolution of parliament last year and the election took place in er in, in April. Why does it have to be on a Thursday? It doesn't. Oh. The general elections? Mm. It doesn't. I I thought it did because that was the only day that wasn't a No. However it just so happens the last time an election wasn't on a Thursday was in er I think it was nineteen thirty one when it was held on a Tuesday. But there is nothing laid down in law whereby it has to be a Thursday. That was one of the questions on our entrance exam was What? what day's general election held. Mm well the correct answer is is that normally a Thursday but there is no statutory er obligation that it is Thursday. And indeed in the early part of this century and the nineteenth century elections have been held on Monday, Wednesday Tuesday never a Friday, never a Saturday, never a Sunday. Yeah? It's just one of these common That's general elections we're talking about by the way. We've slightly digressed but I take your, I take your point. It doesn't have to be a Thursday. It just so happens that for the past sixty years it has been. No erm it's, it's more recent than that I think in nineteen fifty the election was on a Tuesday. I think it may, may even be more recent than that. Not that I was there in person. Well I could have been but I couldn't have voted. Erm I was two, that's why. But anyway we've grasped the point that the general elections it's really down to the prime minister to er er to ask for the dissolution of parliament and the prime minister will normally a will normally ask for the dissolution of parliament when he or she thinks they've got the best chance of winning. Major's ex example was rather, was rather a good one because he was running out of time. He didn't want local elections held before the general election. He feared what the results might have been from the local elections and he's, he's an example in fact of a prime minister who went into the elections trailing in the opinion polls. It doesn't you know, it's not something you would normally do. Not when you do have a choice. However let us return to local elections. Every councillor is elected for a fixed four year term of office. And we can predict with certainty the date of local elections because local elections always take place in May. And they normally occur on the first Thursday in May. They don't if that Thursday's May the first then it's the second Thursday but it's normally the first Thursday in May. So we can, we can you know exactly when a local councillor's term of office is up because it's fixed for four years. However and this is why we've got this big diagram coming up however different councils are elected at different points in the electoral sequence. Each council's elected for four years, but councils aren't all elected at the same time. I can illustrate County councils a dot blank here in eighty four eighty five an election year for county councils I E Essex County Council dot dot dot eighty nine an election year dot dot dot and ninety three you'll all be er happy and delirious to know is a county council election year so next May Thursday county council elections will be held. Metropolitan councils, the big city ones with the exception of London of course and some non-metropolitan councils, out of interest Harlow is amongst those some non- metropolitan councils, this is where the confusion often creeps in. I'm writing figure ones there dots blank year one third one third one third dots, blank year one third One third one third one third dots one third. You'll be amazed to know that the system for this, for elections to metropolitan councils is called the system of election by thirds. What does it mean? It means that one third of the councillors are elected in each of three consecutive years. Yeah? And there is a blank year which coincides with county council elections. Harlow's an example of that. How it's done in practical terms is this each Harlow ward returns three councillors yeah? They've all been ele these three councillors have been elected at different, in different years okay? And so a Harlow councillor who was elected in nineteen eighty eight, yeah? Was up for re-election in May this year, nineteen ninety two. That's one third of them got it? Why do they do that, is it ? Well I'll come on to that in a sec. Okay. Yeah. It's a good, very good question. But do we grasp that? I mean some people are looking at me as though I've just revealed some dread secret the world was gonna end tomorrow . Grasp it? Yeah. Like a, a good example the, the the ninety three one, the ninety two one rather this year was a good example because there was erm a titanic battle in Old Harlow where the leader of the council Richard was up for re- election. And as you may be aware that er in, in, in in the local elections this year, in May, the Conservative Party did dramatically well, much better than it did in the general election yeah? And so therefore Richard was, seemed to be he would be in, he was gonna be in very very grave difficulties in getting re- elected for Old Harlow. Old Harlow's a very interesting ward. Erm it's Old Harlow and Churchgate Street it's in therefore, it's in the wealthiest part of town but many of the denizens of Old Harlow and erm Churchgate Street are, are sort of st are, are, are I suppose, you know, bourgeois liberals, bourgeois socialists yeah? It's a bit like Hampstead, yeah? It's got two Labour councillors and one Conservative councillor, used to have three Labour councillors. But there was a really big party struggle there and in Old Harlow erm Conservatives of course very very confident. Er there was a titanic party battle but I think the turn out, the local election turn out was over sixty percent which is dramatically high for local government elections. Erm scraped home by a, by a, by a small number of votes yeah? The liberal vote there almost collapsed to nothing erm while the liberals obviously voted labour tactically in order to prevent the Conservatives from A grabbing the ward, and B erm removing the leader of the council which would have been, which is what they were obviously angling for. Erm it comes back to the point which has just been made about the er, about the erm why have this system of election by thirds and almost backfired on, on, on, on the leader of the council yeah? So that's er that's the system by thirds. One third of the councillors in each of three consecutive years are up for re-election. And there's a blank year in county council here. Of course it's not a blank year for the hard pressed voters of Harlow because they're all voting in the county council elections then for the, for the number of, for the, for the er county councillors who represent at Harlow erm at County Hall in Chelmsford. Have there ever been surveys done erm to see how many people actually understand Yes. the system? Yes. And how many do? Not many. It's not surprising. Mm. People get very confused by it. Mm. And they don't figure they, they get more confused when the county council elections come up in ninety three. Yeah? It's even more confusing cos some systems of by thirds I think they go, they go on wards there's some wards don't have an election one year, when the neighbouring one does. Do you see what I mean? Yeah. Are there any limits to how many times you can stand for councillor? Well, apart from death I mean my erm my, my uncle getting familiar about this, yes? My erm my uncle Jo yes? After whom a huge block of flats in Liverpool is named after, yeah? Morgan Heights, yeah? Not to be confused with He er, he stood down as erm as a, as a er Labour councillor in, in Liverpool in Walton er ward what are we in now, nineteen ninety two in nineteen ninety or ninety one, yeah ninety one at the age of eighty six and he'd been a Liverpool councillor off and on for over fifty years. Twice refused the offer of the parliamentary seat at Walton. Anyway most non-metro district councils oh by the way, sorry and parishes I always . We always forget about the poor parish council don't we? They, like the county councils, go in for what's known as the poll council system as opposed to the system of election by thirds. That is, just as a county council in eighty five, all the councillors are up for re-election just as in a parliamentary general election, yeah? In eighty seven all the councillors of most district councils are up for election. So if you go up the road to Epping their elections take up all the councillors that are elected together. Eighty eight, eighty nine, ninety ninety one There's a, again a possibly interesting link here with general elections erm eighty three of course was a, was a er an election year for non-metropolitan er district councils yeah? It's just, it's just off our little chart there. Those elections take place in May right? In May eighty three and again in May eighty seven Margaret Thatcher chose to go to the country the month after those elections. June eighty three and June eighty seven. Four in, in both those occasions she was four years into her term of office. Elected first in seventy nine and then obviously in eighty three. And what happened in eighty three and eighty seven of course was that the local elections take place the Conservative party managers analyzed the results, fed them through the computers and you could come up with the fact that you would, looked like you were set to win a general election. And so therefore the local elections were seen as a pointer to the general elections. Why? Because it also happens, it happens to be the case that in local elections people tend to vote on national issues or perceptions. They don't vote on local issues. Local elections just tend to be national reflect the national concerns, issues or reflects the unpopularity of the government pa of the governing party or whatever, yeah. You don't tend to vote on purely local issues. one of the reasons for introducing the community charge that and it's ironic that it was just possible, especially in nineteen erm ninety erm that the community charge was meaning wa was bringing about a change where people were voting on local issues, the prime local issue of course being what would be the level of the, of the community charge. And that was one of the justifications of bringing it in, that it would raise a sense of er it would raise erm the actual percentage of people voting in elections and it would make local issues er more pertinent at local elections. We will never know how that would develop because community charge has been abolished but anyway You will note of course as well that last year in nineteen ninety one, the Conservative Party managers looked at the local election result and decided not to go in June ninety one, cos they figured they would get beaten. Surely if the erm turn out is er erm doesn't really It's much big it's a, it's it's a, it's an incredibly wide sample opinion poll. Because we're talking millions of voters yeah. If you get a forty percent turn out in a local elect within England yeah? If you get a forty percent turn out in England and Wales, we're talking many millions of voters. And when you think that the biggest opinion poll samples are what five, ten thousand? So it's pretty, it's, it's a much more accurate guide than any opinion poll. Erm again I, I can't help but s er er getting slightly digressed but it is rather interesting that John Major this year decided to go for a general election before the local elections. The advice was was not to hang on and see what the May elections er looked like. Couple of reasons, one was on a much smaller sample yeah? But B of course if you did badly in those elections in May the government might have done badly in May, then morale would have been rock bottom of having to go into an election, he would have had to go for an election six weeks later or they'd run out of time, yeah. But the real the real glorious irony I think that cheers up erm psephologists like me, political analysists, is that in those May elections the Conservatives did dramatically well compared to what they'd done in the general election. In the general election they'd won it, but their majority was down. In the local elections their share of the vote was and they did very very well. Why? Anyone possess any theories about that? They were reflect they were reflecting national issues erm like the Well did it really have time to do that? just on a,were just on a general high anyway after the election results. Yeah. There's that fact that the Conservatives were on a high of course. I mean these local elections only took place what, erm four weeks after the general election, the Conservatives were on a high and conversely therefore you could say that what? Labour voters are gonna be disillusioned Labour Labour voters were er to say the least dis disappointed I think is more the, is the word rather than disillusioned isn't it? Disappointed. Gutted. Yes, possibly gutted is the better word, right. But there's another interesting fact that as well erm and it's borne out, I know opinion polls had a rather bad erm er er got a bad press in the general election er because they weren't very accurate and it was odd this because their, their accuracy levels had becoming er had, had, had been becoming frighteningly er accurate say in eighty seven you know? But they take opinion polls all the time, I mean shortly after the recent general election they were taking opinion polls a week later. They d they do it all, they do it throughout the year we just, we just don't there's just not so many of them, and we don't read about them so much as we do before big elections. The point is this, after a general election the party that's won, it's share of the vote in the most, in, in the, in the opinion poll taken most immediately after the election it goes up, it's higher than actually what it gets in the general election. Why? This is just purely a human fact. People want to be associated with a winning team don't they? A cigar and a coconut over there, yeah. There's a tendency to associate yourself with the winning, with the winner. Yeah? And people who might even have voted Labour, or Lib Dem at the general election, at the first opinion poll they'll say they vote Conservative. So it's strange but it's er maybe it's not so strange Why do you think get it so horribly wrong this time round in the general election? I beg your pardon? How did, why did the erm opinion polls just get it so horribly wrong this time round? Well they've come up with a lot of theories haven't they. Erm one the reluctance of many Conservative voters to reply to opinion polls for s some reason. Two erm erm in some areas erm people are just bloody minded and say they're gonna vote one way the oth the other. There's n it's an interesting fact that as well that erm opinion polls are very often, it depends what the question you're asked and when, when, when during elections people are asked are you prepared to s to have either A lower taxes or B spend more, higher taxes and spend more on the national health service, well people always say oh yeah, oh yeah fine. I want every possible penny spent on the national health service, they don't want to be thought like Attila the Hun, yeah well, something like that So when you're asked do you believe that the entire gross national product should be spent on the N H S people say yes yes of course cos they don't wanna be, cos it seems bad but when, when they're in the, when they're in the ballot box, when, when they're in the voting booths and then they're faced with the question then, do they want Yeah. pay more , when it comes to the crunch Erm so th that's a factor. The other factor as well was the high turn out in the election. The turn out in the recent, in the, in the April election was very high. It was what, seventy eight percent over all, and in, and in a large, very large individual constituencies you were seeing turn out in the eighties. Eighty six percent in a couple, eighty four percent. And if you think about it you can't get a much bigger turn out than that. Cos if, if about eight percent of the people don't have to vote anyway some people aren't gonna vote. You can't really get much higher turn out than about eighty four percent, eighty five percent in practical terms. Lot of people aren't there and they haven't bothered to get a postal vote cos they're on holiday or whatever you know. So the high turn out was a factor I think in, in, in the opinion polls. It galvanized lots, lots of Conservative voters quite simply thought they were gonna lose so they went out and voted. Mm. Well I, I mean now that doesn't sound, that's not such a an Irish statement as it sounds, actually. In eighty three, when it was obvious that the Conservatives were gonna win because then if you, if, this is history now, but the Labour Party was led by Michael Foot then, it was it was in no shape to win the election in erm the Conservatives were, were led by Thatcher, she was on a high after the Falklands War, the Conservatives romped home. In fact er they should have done a lot better, but a lot of Conservative voters didn't bother going out to vote cos it was a foregone conclusion. Yeah. Sounds remarkable but it's erm it's true. Okay and finally erm are London boroughs erm yeah blank blank, eighty six election and the next London borough elections will be in nineteen ninety four so they've been in nineteen eighty six, nineteen ninety and nineteen, they will next be in nineteen ninety four. So it's argued of course that this electoral sequence, especially election by thirds is a reason for public confusion about local government. It's also a reason for the public confusion about who does what. Again especially in conjunction with our system of election by thirds. The people in in, in districts like that, they seem to be perennially voting, forever voting and in the blank year they're voting for county council elections. Or they're voting in county council elections. Now the question was raised earlier what is the justification of this system of election by thirds? By the way erm for non-metro districts they can choose whether they can have election by thirds or not, and you do occasionally get r you do occasionally you can get, get very occasional examples of a, of a dis of a district council opting to switch from one to the other. Again I've forgotten the entire erm it's not easy, er th the rather complicated rigmarole about this erm er the great man comes to my rescue as usual Burn. He says a local authority can apply to change the electoral system at any time I E a district council but not more than once every ten years. And there must be a sixty percent majority vote at the council meeting in support of the proposal . So you can vote to change, Harlow could vote to switch to a whole council system. But it would need a sixty percent vote on the council, and once they'd do made the switch, they couldn't switch back to a system by thirds for ten years. Yeah? As I say I, a couple of years ago an authority did do that, it swapped. It does, does occasionally happen. So what is the justification of the system? Well its supporters say that it's it's justified on the grounds of democracy. What they mean by that is is that the council is in close touch with public opinion. They also argue in favour of it on grounds of continuity s so the two arguments here are one, democracy and one continuity. On the continuity point their argument is that under the system of election by thirds, you don't see a dramatic switch in the party control of the council. Or a dramatic switch in councillors themselves as you sometimes get in whole council elections. In a whole council election er if if the ruling party is massively behind in the opinion polls, then large numbers of them will be swept out of office and the opposition will get in, and the argument is that then you see a a you see a suddenly see then a reversal of policies. Whereas a system by thirds means that it's unlikely that the council or at least a lot of councils, will suddenly have a quick switch around and you'll get a greater continuity of policy. I think it's a rather confused argument but perhaps If you, if you have elections every year and it's a quite tight one you could get a different party in power each year, you could change it each year couldn't you? You, yeah er er yes I'd er you're quite right, at the moment I'm just in a sense presenting the the pr you know the arguments of those in favour, we, we'll, we'll, we'll make this point in a second, yeah. This, these are the arguments they present, I mean I I'm not inclined to, I'm, I'm inclined to think they're somewhat bogus these arguments but the argument of continuity is there. On this er er further to this point about continuity they make the point as well that a system of election by thirds makes it more difficult for the officers of the authority to dominate the councillors. Because you're not gonna get such an influx of new councillors, yeah? People who haven't been on a council before. This is the argument that suggests that senior officers are rather like Sir Humphrey figures in Yes Minister, who take the view that there's nothing wrong with the government except for all these elected clowns that clutter the place up and get in the way and if only the Civil Service could run the place then it would be a lot better. And you get a similar view of that very often by senior officers in authorities. One, one suspects with some authorities they, they've got more justification for referring to these elected clowns that get in the way. What proportion of councils opt for a third system? Thank you, good question, I forgot to mention it didn't I? Yeah. Erm the figure is there are, as we all know how many district councils are there? Non-metropolitan district councils Hundreds. Yes, there are hundreds, about how many hundred? Several hundred Several, mm. Three hundred and thirty Three hundred and thirty three Oh of course. yes. So there are three hundred and thirty three non- metropolitan district councils. Erm of them two o five opt for the whole council system. And therefore by a mighty feat of arithmetic we come up with the figure of what, one hundred and twenty eight go for the system by thirds. It is a third. Yeah,it's a third . The argument against the system of election by thirds of course the arguments against are roughly these one, an obvious argument, is that it is conf it, it's confusing to the public the system of election by thirds is confusing. It's also argued as well, rather counter to the proponents of election by thirds that it's undemocratic. Good example in ninety two if Harlow council had been a whole er whole council election in nineteen ninety two it's highly likely the Conservatives would have taken control. But they couldn't do that because only one third of the councillors were up for election. Do you see what I mean? So it's argued that it's frustrating to the er to the electant It's also argued as well that the frequency of elections tends to produce lower turn outs. Yes I, I, I'm inclined to go along with that to some extent, I remember once er I think it was eighty four, because in eighty four or was it eighty four? When were the last European elections? Eighty eight. Eighty seven No. eighty nine. Eighty nine. It was eighty nine wasn't it? Yeah. Eighty four yeah. I remember in eighty four erm there'd been a general election in eighty three erm there'd been one third elections in Harlow in, in, in erm i i i in eighty three, there was er a gen the general election and another system of election by thirds in eighty four and then the European election being told by one el elderly lady that there were too many bleeding elections and therefore she wasn't gonna vote . But there is that again a confusion So a target that perhaps election by thirds reduces public interest, possibly reduces turn out. It's, it's not, perhaps it's no accident er maybe those or other factors that you do tend the lowest turn outs in metropolitan districts the big city districts. And there's a not inconsiderable point as well that exp it's expensive. Because these elections have to be organized three years running. And who pays for it? The community charge pays. There's a tendency erm as well to suspect that one reason why many non-metro districts have election by thirds is that they are generally more urban ones and the reason why they go for it is to keep the party machine in a permanent state of electioneering readiness. So we could, one c er the argument there is is that the party political argument in favour of election by thirds. By the way er we may er be gratified to know that erm thankfully Labour lost the ninety eighty seven election but in, in it's manifesto in nineteen eighty seven Labour proposed annual elections in local government. Hm. I don't recall, well in fact I'm being sarcastic because I know for a, we know that it wasn't in the manifesto for nineteen ninety two. What the impact of annual elections for local government would be on turn out is difficult to say. I suspect disastrous. But I might be wrong, perhaps I'm being too cynical. Two very brief points here, voting turn out and voting patterns. We can make a very simple point here, voting turn out in local elections is lower than in general elections, yeah? Turn out in local elections is approximately forty percent,that figure is covering all local elections. And it's a U K average figure as well, but we're talking about forty percent. You've got variations. You get higher turn out in non- metropolitan districts than you do in county council or in metropolitan district elections. You get low, you get low turn out in, in, in in inner city areas where the metropolitan districts tend to er tend to be. So the average vote in local elections is round about forty percent. Turn out in general elections mid to high seventies. As we've said the most recent election turn out was what, seventy eight percent highest for twenty years. Erm voting patterns, not much to say really on this erm if you want to read up on this there's a little sect rather interesting section in Burn on this in his chapter on local government elections. Who is most likely to vote in local elections? Well the people who are most likely to vote in local elections tend to be the people who in greater numbers, if you see what I mean, are more likely to vote in, in general elections. Or, to put it another way, the people most likely to vote full stop. The person most likely to vote is a white, middle class, middle aged male home owner. I suppose conversely from that you might construe then that the person least likely to vote would be a black female working class tenant. There's some truth in that. Owner occupation seems to be a factor in more greater readiness to vote. That may be significant because of course owner occupation has increased quite significantly in recent years to the great regret of many many of the home o of the occupiers I mean. And whichever way we look at the figures though, there is an unpreparedness to vote in local government elections. There are exceptions to this I would suggest that very high turn outs in the er local election, local elections in Harlow almost certainly because there was a lot of interest in it press interest because of the great battle in Old Harlow and that appears to have had a spin off effect on turn out in the other wards as well. What exactly do you mean by unpreparedness? By? Unpreparedness. Well, the fact that in a general election situation, people will go out and vote. In local elections they won't. If, er if I was to further refine that I would argue quite strongly that a lot of people see it as their duty to vote in general elections mm? Erm they don't take that attitude to local government elections. By the way it's not just local government elections European elections as well. I mean turn out in the er in, in in er er European elections was er in nineteen eighty four it was thirty two percent and in nineteen er eighty nine, thirty seven percent. So less people vote in Euro elections than vote in local elections. The question is of course why? You get much higher turn out in local government elections in western Europe,we western European states than you do in Britain. Why are people less prepared to vote in local government elections than they are in general elections? Let's throw it open. Well people don't understand the system and they don't think that things will affect them. Yeah. Yeah I think that yeah. They're both good points, especially the latter one that people don't particularly think that, that a change in local government will affect them. Could we go further and suggest why they think that? got enough power. Yes I think there's a tendency to take the view that basically local authorities simply administer and does it really matter who's in power at the town hall. Now erm well let, let me start again people think okay, if the Conservatives win, win control alright it might be another fifty pence on night class at the er at the, the college you know, something something like that erm it might mean erm a few redundancies in the town hall and a greater level of privatization but s but people tend to think well so what so long as the bins are getting emptied. Mm? And after all, much of what local authorities do is what? Well perhaps I've phrased it wrong, much of what local authorities actually undertake is what? What government wants. Or even more you're on the right track, yeah. But it's more than what government wants Dictates. it's more than, it's what the government dictates. Most of what local authorities do is in a sense not really party politically controversial because they've got because most of the things they do they've got to do, they're mandated to do. In other words, you couldn't stand for office in Harlow and say for instance erm if erm if we er win the election we're gonna stop the sale of council houses. Yeah? This is say Labour speaking. Or we're gonna we're gonna spend on house building all our capital receipts, cos they can't do it. Yeah? Essex County Council, the Conservatives couldn't run for office there and say if we're elected we intend to er privatize the entire education system and stop financing it. Because they can't. At the moment the law makes the, the law obliges them to do A B C and prevents them from doing X Y Z. So the spin off on the electorate is perhaps well, does it really matter? Now community charge may have made a difference but what, what did government do about that to s in a sense ironically to go against one of their one of the, one of the most basic principles of bringing it in? I mean community charge was a factor in the nineteen ninety London borough elections, but in nineteen ninety the Conservative Party was doing very badly in opinion polls. This is just a few months before the overthrow of Margaret Thatcher. But in nineteen ninety in London not only did they hold on, they won dramatic victories in a number of London boroughs. Wandsworth where they only had a majority of one, they they they they destroyed the Labour Party. Cos there they had a stark choice then of voting for erm a very low community charge and potentially voting for a very high community charge. And most people chose a low one. But what did, but the government in a sense even even ended that as a viable choice by doing what? Erm rate capping Charge capping, yeah, yeah. One, charge capping which prevents authorities from putting their community charge to over a certain level and two, Lamont's famous budget. Well he, he took it down by a certain amount by putting onto VAT. He put it on VAT. So in a sense community charge was being watered down as a factor by the state taking over payment in a sense. I don't, I don't I mean I don't quite agree with what you're saying cos you seem to be saying whatever party's in power in local government it's gonna be exactly the same No I'm not saying same sort of direction continue to do the same sort of things. Yeah I I I'm acting as devil's advocate in a sense. I mean these are factors which are given which are trotted out as reasons. It's, look we've got a problem haven't we, the problem is there's low, there's persistently low turn out in local government elections. You've got a couple of, you get blips you got a blip in nineteen ninety on the community charge when you got a high turn out in London boroughs especially, yeah? Mm. In other areas where community charge is not such a factor you don't get it. But we're still, we're still stuck with the problem, if it is a problem, of persistently low turn out for local government elections. And what I've said is I, I am in a sense acting as devil's advocate. It's it's it's in giving reasons for that. And you're quite right, I mean it might be argued that there are big issues in local government still. Yeah. Whether they build a new recreation centre whether old people have free passes. It might mean, it prob er I suppose in a sense that doesn't matter very much to me but I suppose it might matter if you're sixty yeah yeah. But nevertheless, agreeing with you to some extent, there are issues in local government, there are issues but s even so people don't vote. Well it's, it's probably in tory newspapers not to marginalize local authorities. But it's always been the case . You know I mean we, we look, I mean it's inter one of the reasons for the nineteen seventy two reform you know one of, one of the er factors in it was to attempt to raise levels of participation in local government by making it more understandable. Hm. I mean what are the essential differences between European local erm county systems and and Well yeah and there's a couple of factors, one is a good they may er er some of them have got more power, yeah? Some of them are on a bigger level. There's another interesting factor as well, there's a greater participation of national things in local government in, in, in a number of European states. Erm for instance er Jacques Chirac leader of the erm,o of the erm U D F in France what is he also? Mayor of Paris. Yeah, yeah. And you'll find even Mitterand is actually the the mayor of some little arrondissement somewhere you know, some little of housing. Yeah. There's a more, there's a greater link between national figures and local government. Ditto in the United States of course. You know, I mean a, a springboard for running for er president is being being governor. Ronny Reagan was governor in California, Bill Clinton is governor of Arkensaw. These are in a sense,although they're pretty big , they're in a sense local government type positions. So you know I mean erm you've got evidence from the Widdicombe er survey which produced the Widdicombe report. These are just examples of er of of of question of answers to questions Burn asks the question which I've just asked, why then does low turn out persist, cos he's just made the point above that there are big issues in local government. There are issues of spending, there are issues of building there are issues of direction of the pa of, of the, of the authority yeah? Erm Widdicombe quotes some people they're all the same so what's the point? Erm sixty six percent of people believe that the people you vote for say they'll do things for you but once they're in they forget what they've said. Others blame the complexity of the system. Confusion caused by the voting system. Of course, to wrap this up, I suppose there's one other fact that perhaps the low votes in local government could be seen as w either two things depending on whether you're an optimist or a pessimist I suppose it's, it's a bit of the argument like if you've got a half gla and is your glass half empty or is your glass half full you know? Erm one argument is is that people are making a deliberate and adverse comment on local government by not voting. They're in a sense voting with their feet, or not voting with their feet you know they're not, they're not voting, yeah. Erm course on the other hand the optimists could say well the reason why people don't bother voting is cos they're all pretty happy with local government. Wonderful art politics isn't it? Mm. These are these wonderful arguments where you pays your money and you takes your choice. Mm. Both could be true. Both could be true. But it would be ala I think people would be alarmed if turn out for central government dropped to forty percent. Turn out in general elections. I mean the lowest turn out in any of the constituencies in, in the general election was much higher than the turn out in local government, I think the lowest turn out in any individual constituency was about fifty four percent in the general election. And that's significantly higher than the local government turn out. If we become like, like more part of Europe, if Europe gets more power than er then parliament would have less power well the same thing could happen in the erm central government elections as well couldn't it? Could well be yeah, yeah. If yeah that's an interesting point. If say for instance one moved headlong down the road to European political union and Westminster ended up with something like the powers of Puddlewick District Council then possibly turn out in general elections would be low. Yeah. We'll wait and see. Okay Doctor , do you want to see Thomas again? There is, they're all Mm. of . Erm Thomas. Thomas . Some of them er Oh, yes. Right. there's a few times so I'll give you that four. Is that? D do you want to see him again? Aye. That's fine. Right. Okay. Yeah. Just one suggestion worth mentioning erm one of those the er one on employment industry and commerce has now been printed and has been distributed and I hope that all members have now received. The other on population and housing, erm has been delayed in being sent to the printers, in order that we might incorporate some of the erm information from last year er so that the document would be thereby erm even more er immediately useful and in consequence it won't be available until either the end of the month or the very beginning of February, but er progress is on a is in hand on that er that's all I wanted to say to you. Thank you and you have seen the Er Chairman yes, thank you erm there are a number of apologies this morning er on account of the erm er weather conditions, Mr , Mr , Mr , Mr and Mrs . Thank you Chairman. Now on the . Chairman, thank, thank you very much indeed erm Chairman, I will in fact and er perhaps if I read that in the first instance I haven't circulated it erm if I read that the first instance it will set the of what I have to say. Er and the proposal that I shall report is the and in particular those matter our certainty of responsibility between various agencies needs to be addressed erm it arose obviously are much more widespread than in the past week, but er I was granted in fact to give consideration to this result of the parish meeting, conventional routine parish meeting at Barnham er on the fourth of January erm which led to the largest parish meetings I think they've had in many years erm when because people were incensed with the suffering and the hardship that they had as a result of the flooding on the night of Thursday the thirtieth of December erm should let me say first of all that erm I would congratulate all those who were involved er in dealing with the present emergency operations erm it's quite superb, it's erm it seemed to be erm a remarkable reflection on the capacity er that to deal with certain circumstances reflects very well on this authority and in saying that I mean it's not just the opposites to the men and women who are involved, but also whereas I'm sure many members are here that members amongst our numbers have putting on very long hours in dealing with the present circumstances and I congratulate on the activities . The point that concerned must reaction of the was one that we've heard many times before who the hell's taking overall view of this? Why are there grave areas, areas of uncertainty and responsibility erm Rivers Authority er Area Manager I believe, Mr er presented the position from their point of view er in particular circumstances on the night of thirtieth December er the er Southern Water whose responsibility is primarily sewage erm er describes circumstances that they have been contending with and a great deal of criticism erm was what we had to anticipate if you like or do anything er to contend with the unusual circumstances of that night erm the consequence was that a large number of new houses in the very close to the that runs through Barnham and under the railway there erm and er not ordinary surplus water flooding, but sewage flooding and the consequences then for many years er it's obviously going to give, quite apart from having to live with it, er it will on the properties themselves and adversely affect er the ability of individuals to sell them off. Er but that were full of praise for the activities of the fire service in particular and whilst most was levelled out the N R A Southern Water to some extent District local authority er were coping incredibly well and continue to do so. Er but there was an implication by implication and the, the particular point was the extent to which surplus water draining off fields er was to the problem and we learnt from the Southern Water representative that there is a an area of uncertainty erm and divided responsibility perhaps erm about the ditches, about the highways in that vicinity. I gather that in general ditches are the responsibility of Southern Water and then in some point it'll change in but er there are areas in the county er and upon this appears to be one where the ditches adjacent to the highway are the responsibility of the, the Highway Authority, that is the County Surveyor, but it gives you an example of an area in which we responsibility of the public er find it difficult to understand why all the agencies involved identify four in those circumstances I think in R A Southern Water district to themselves, because we've got that information repeated across the county erm and it seemed to me important that erm somebody er accepted responsibility for taking an overall view of the circumstances to er merely because of course we can only concern ourselves with manmade er circumstances rather than er erm but I think you know members would agree that as a strategic planning authority, we appear to be the only auth er the only body which can erm in the cold light of day we view the circumstances look at the implications for strategic planning and local planning and the suggestion of those developments and obviously that would be a concern to us and er I felt and I have to that it is an area of responsibility erm which er within the of this committee and that on behalf of West Sussex as a whole, we should grasp that responsibility, make it clear and I'm not talking about the emergency arrangements which we're coping with quite adequately it seems to me erm but I'm talking about the coordination and overview of all the er contributing factors erm so that we can demonstrate that there is ultimately one body who can take er a view of these matters er ensure that there are not grey areas in future and to er initiate er action wherever it may be dealt with necessary. Thank you very much Mr , I just want to to ask if there were any legal observations? Er Chairman thank you erm the wording which we've been erm given by Mr erm refers to erm in particular those matters where uncertainty of responsibility between various agencies needs to be addressed erm as far as this committee is concerned of course, erm our erm er role is that as a strategic planning authority and er I'm quite sure that there will be erm an analysis after the event erm most likely by the Fire and Public Protection Committee who, to whom emergency planning erm are answerable and it's the Emergency Planning Team who shoulder our responsibilities as a County Council erm and er any implications then for the Strategic Planning Committee will no doubt be taken into. Erm if you wish to proceed with this proposal, I would suggest perhaps that erm it isn't uncertainty of responsibility but perhaps the extent of responsibilities and powers of the various agencies which need to be clarified and I, it is, it is pro probably that area which erm will be addressed by er th the analysis which takes place erm after the immediate problems are behind us er but certainly the implications for the Strategic Planning Committee erm and for, perhaps for local planning or something which erm the Chief Officers could be asked to report back to this Committee. Now we've got four speakers so far on this matter er Chris Yes thank you Chairman erm I think important question very similar question I think we're we're all wondering whether the changed landscape of West Sussex, the changed use of West Sussex has had any influence on the flooding and as the County Council has pointed out worst amount of rain we've had for about seventy years or so I think it's very useful and important er to ask questions an and when this crisis is over we reflect on what we can learn from it, but I must bear in mind that it is first and foremost extraordinary climatic conditions which have caused these problems and that in itself of course might have implications erm the whole of global warming does tend to come to mind when you see what's happening in Australia as well as what's happening here erm that's certainly not anything that agencies great or small can have any control over. I wanted specifically to address myself to to one rumour which seems to be a circulating dilemma, a great deal of enthusiasm and I heard that at er Chichester Railway Station today erm the staff at Chichester Railway Station seem to be under the impression that the erm the emergency planning authorities er have imminent proposals to breach the railway line south of to allow the flood water to escape to the sea, with the result so I was quite earnestly and er without any doubt that the railway will be closed for six months erm the, the Chairman of the County Council just raised this issue with the Emergency Planning, I understand that this is er an unsubstantiated rumour and er that there be a an immediate er destruction of the railways is not imminent but er I think perhaps it shows that erm probably due to the the great media interest and all sorts of stories are er doing a round but it goes without saying of course that the railway wasn't closed for six months to the railway, but I don't think there is any er any prospect to that, but I think the Chairman Council feels that . You want to say something? Yes Chairman I would. First of all I would like to say that I think erm much of, pretty well all of Mr has brought forward he, he, he's worthy of attention of support. Erm it w would be er pretty foolish I think after the lessons that have been learned about this that you know we should sink back i i into erm contentment as it were, er, er, er, er erm you know perhaps in six months or in sixty years erm facing the same kind of problem again er I, I can erm I have close experience with a situation on my, on my own patch which rises from time to time an and is most unpleasant for the people in and it goes back if I might say so an and therefore the planning considerations that have been mentioned need to be paid attention to. It goes back to the fifties when the local authority, in this case the Worthing Rural District Council would not approve the plan for a small development A Twenty Seven in near the roundabout at Manor. Er the developers as we all know have a right to go to appeal which they did and of the day I don't which government it was at that time cos it was in the fifties okayed it and th th the building went ahead and people every year or two sometimes twice in a year get flooded and they get sewages the the sewer with the volume of rain water they can't otherwise get away, but it brings to light what happens i i i in the ditches and, and the waterways that are spread across the direction of Airport and then out into the river when the tide is low because the switches close when the tide comes in and basically er and this is up to date information the information that I have is that the channels are the responsibility of the er you know responsibilities are either kept cleared or not clogged up and in connection with the, with the incident I, I did hear it said that in, in a place where once said it usually counts that possibly and more than the that the first flood was due because the drains and the ditches couldn't take the volume of water after they were cleared and things have been pretty reasonable erm since that time, so it would seem to confirm what, what I have to say about keeping clear erm but it may be that authorities that weren't responsible had the job of cleaning them, I don't know. But here in Chichester Chairman, it's er a pretty serious situation where you've got a a small river causing tremendous volumes of water er levels of which I think have never been experienced with anybody er going through a very small city built in eighteen hundreds I don't know what time and date you know, but a very long time ago. Erm the volume i i is tremendous and er one worries about the effect of the surging waters on such an old construction, now we far worse than and consequently the emergency services have had to consider all sorts of alternatives, some of which you see now with the piping on, on the surface of it's been having a good result the immediate problem, but you can't stop there and the emergency team have given consideration to all sorts of other possible temporary solutions in the event or that the pumping failed and er I think that's possibly where this rumour about erm the railway line arrived but er I think Chairman I've said enough, we all, we would all agree I think that the emergency workers have performed er I think we're all pleased to see the army coming in erm and doing what they've done and erm I certainly er appreciated the opportunity to come in on the old A Twenty Seven through West it took my mind back er many years I can tell you and erm I, I think congratulations all round are due, but I come back to what's all saying and which I support as it would be a folly when the dust has settled erm to really take a an objective er position and see that er arrangements are in hand channels and things like that will not again be supercharged in the way they are. I've been generous in the latitude I've given to speakers in talking to this proposal, but it is quite specific about the the review of er responsibilities Erm well can I er carry on the erm but er no shortly. The sadness and this is this subject was forecast a year and a half ago er that we are phasing in i in large management and land and it was raised, we had that seminar but before that there were also erm worries expressed before this predicament. Erm I know it's associated with over extraction of water at certain points but but be that as it may, but in the old days the Sussex Lands Committee er used to be er a county function and did take an overview erm of the whole West Sussex scene in terms of what happened erm it is now really now erm not our responsibility, although we put members on it, it's a now fairly weak er joint body but it's pretty toothless. One of the problems a few people said clear the ditches, well that's not true we, there is a, there is a, the law is erm very er diverse on this subject, it's er in certain cases, it's landowners, the farmers erm and that those have been neglected, we're paying the cost of really complacency. Well okay, we know that now and I think a lot of people have er taken up er that into account. Erm I don't think that as a committee that we should be getting into the detail necessary of what's going wrong and I think er Harold made that quite well. Look at the implications looking back over it when when Fire and Public Protection had produced their report, but certainly the things are and it's quite clear that we all know this case in my particular the river has been constricted by some thoroughly bad planning decisions and development control districts and they're paying them that the owners are paying the penalty for that erm reducing the ditches and er building over them and okay we've got problems erm so er there are structure plan implications erm which I don't I think we should miss and if we say that really building on a is a principle well then we should try it right into the structure plan or looking at local plans for approval that we actually look at this a little bit more carefully. Now the thing that worries me is that the N R A and our linkage with them is I don't think it's early days for them and they haven't got the the power and the erm law behind them to enforce it as the way which I think most of us would like to think of have a erm erm an organization tha that can in fact start bringing the law in that if people fail to do what they say erm so that aspect I think I now Chris also mentioned this erm tilting in West Sussex and again that mentioned in the structure plan, because I six mill a year but in ten years that's two and a half inches. Now the implication of that is that the tide flaps and the sluices er will operate it slightly less frequently in ten years. The Chairman of the erm that is already occurring, we've had a number of reports erm already er flooding is based on a tide flap system erm so those you know we're gonna have to live with that over the years. Now we've got another opportunity system, erm but it's too early they think that the the water is coming up in I think February isn't it another or was it the coastal but it's with but whether we want at the end of it to have another water seminar, looking instead of extraction side but what the water companies are doing with our rivers it might not be a bad idea as part of er producing a considered view later on in the year but I don't, I don't think we can hurry this as there's a lot of lessons to be learnt and I I don't think we should do the work in the Fire and Public Protection Committee erm in getting our erm eyes taken off the dealing with the actual problem at the moment, we want to look, step, step back and say well what what was the cause of all that, but I do support erm proposal that we should have it listed as er This proposal has whetted peoples appetites are formal speakers erm Mr ? Yeah, thank you Chairman, I think was right and proper, we should congratulate the services involved in dealing with this emergency. They've been working very hard, in some cases long hours I think it's right because this is a similar discussion we had by Public Protection Committee about a report and the main thing about the report is to find ways in which this could be avoided and that we could take such action as necessary and obviously some matters to avoid such a happening again but having said that other parts of West Sussex have always tended to be erm when you get excess rain erm you tend to get flooded in on the train many times some houses have got boats down the bottom of their garden and it's not just now it's been flooded, but it has been flooded in more recent times and that's probably something we should be looking at. If we're looking at the question of services coming together to deal with the emergency erm obviously I suppose the army and that will come in on a voluntary basis which but it might be necessary to see where someone could be authority to coordinate the services and bring it whatever is required. One question I did ask at the Fire and Public Protection Committees what happens when you don't, when we bring in a unity authority status. What happens if we've got an emergency situation and how come when you got about three or four different authorities to deal with that matter and the other thing that has been said people said it to me, the question of building and in some parts of West Sussex we've got concrete jungles and that itself can cause flooding because water doesn't drain would do through natural resources through its natural well drain away. So yeah, I support the Committee, I think on the question of the report I think we need to be absolutely specific about what committee deal with what issue of that report. Thank you. Mrs ? Chairman, you've been so generous in this particular item and I'll be as quick as I can. There seems to be a consensus opinion, so i it doesn't seem to be necessary for me to it, but if it's necessary I do so. One can look back in eighty seven when we had that terrible storm and they said well once in a hundred years and then we had a storm very similar I think it is essential we look look into this erm we always consult with the water authorities on any planning application and it is up to them to say whether there should be flooding or not. I think that they are only just getting into their stride on this particular issue, because some years ago we had flooding in Worthing, quite severe flooding, so every application went to the Southern Water Authority and we never got back no, you can't develop on that area and it was, it was very difficult. Erm I can only say that I believe that there should be an examination of them erm we need to know exactly erm what brought about these tremendous floods. We have heard on the television that there will be another and there are lots of people who are in, in absolute despair, because of what happened to their houses and their properties and their furniture and everything else and I think it is only right and proper and I can only say that West Sussex County Council has by so many people that it has brought about or alleviated all the pain and anxiety on Mr ? Yes erm my point is the erm the reserve the section that comes out erm that's not dealt with local authorities experienced two weeks ago worst flooded . This was caused apparently by a private . Is there any way the Council can erm control private properties water er the damage can do in such situations as this? I'm sure that will be covered this word responsibility frightens me or makes me apprehensive. Er Mr ? Thank you Chairman. Well yes it is certainly fascinating to hear the views of, of members an and indeed it, it's tempting to go on I think about or personal experience of floods, but this is not the time or the place I would suggest to do that erm strategic planning seems to me has been the venue for discussions with Southern Water Authority with the National Rivers Authority itself, we are the committee that tries to look many, many years ahead. We have a particular role which is different er indeed to Fire and Public Protection, although I accept the fact that they have the overview for emergency planning. We have a different role, but nevertheless and even, an important one is perhaps in even looking further ahead than the Emergency Planning and therefore I would support er in being brief I would support very much erm Mr 's er motion if you can call it a motion which has been seconded and I hope that other members will will agree that erm we can pass this on to the Chief Executive who obviously will be doing this in any case, but it would give er a a an added er measure if you like er I'm talking in terms of member involvement in pressing for er a wider look of what has happened after this sad flood has been dealt with. John was need to reply to Thank you Chairman erm I don't I need to say a great deal because the comments that have been made I think are very thoroughly and expertly covered most of the ground in terms of the the issues that are being raised and can I say that although er a number of Chief Officers, a number of departments and I suspect a number of committees will be looking at what has happened and er seeking in both to find out why it has happened and what might be done in the future erm I certainly recognize that it's er a role responsibility of this committee and of er me and the Planning Department to consider the implications for strategic planning and for the related functions and that erm it won't be a, a, a happy task because er purely it's something that all of us would have hoped hadn't happened at all but I will er very er thoroughly er explore the issues and report it back. The, the only thing that I would say Chairman is that erm planning and er er the role of planning is related amongst other things to development and every single solitary er element in development has an effect, maybe only small and it may be distant, but does have an effect on er water falling as rain and thereby on run-off. Erm every new square inch of hard surface on the ground or roofing er means that less rain when it falls will er move into the ground or will run off more quickly or rapidly fill the water courses and er sooner reach the points of constriction that we know about and cause flooding problems. Therefore as well as it being a problem of development within the flood plain it is also a problem of development beyond the flood plain and as well as development and I er think this in no way intending to spread the blame, but is a, is a er an observation which er I think is quite clear and that is that farming practices erm can have both beneficial and adverse effects on water regimes the introduction of additional drainage er within a field, for er example itself can increase the rate of run-off. Similarly a different regime of cropping can er in some instances reduce the amount of run-off and increase the absorption er capability er of the land. That I think is something that perhaps also needs to be borne in mind, when we are undertaking er this particular study. The message Chairman an and er having an idea of, of your second item of urgent business erm it, this perhaps provides the link the important er point that I wanted to emphasise was that the issue of rainfall, the defect on erm the drainage of an area and er water catchment areas and so on, drainage basins is a matter which can only be dealt with at the strategic level and it is therefore of considerable concern to me in view of local government and the questions that is raising about the future of strategic planning could actually make this coordination much more difficult in the future, unless we take steps now to protect the er strategic planning, whatever form local government takes strategic planning itself also needs a degree of to allow us to deal with these issues. Thank you very much. Well I'm very grateful to Mr for raising this in such a way and for the members' contribution. Could I remind you that Policy G One, a very opening policy in the structure plan says that planning authorities will not normally permit development which will cause unacceptable nuisance or danger by way of flooding. It's there and er that I'm sure was the opening observation in the paper that will be written about responsibility and the other matters. I'm grateful to Mr for raising this very fundamental question which I wished simply to comment on about the strategic aspects, I mean in Chichester we've now had, as you all know, fire and flood and we have the pestilence with us! And erm I did want er Mr to say something about the pestilence, because it is a very serious matter for this Committee. reference to the local government Chairman We've, we've accepted I think I'm say I should be saying we have accepted this er proposal by implication. Well could we Formally? Formally. Yes please. Thank you and I am grateful. Could you refer to this pestilence? Pestilence Chairman I, I, I think that you are inviting me to say something about er local government review and the erm th the problems that that is causing erm I'm obviously I, I, you know very well I can talk for hours on, on many subjects and this is one of those that I can do so. Can you just highlight it by Mr on this. In indeed. Erm I, I think that erm the er concern that erm we all have relating to local government view erm is er that it caused changes in cost money, but as far as this committee is concerned the one, of the particular threats is to strategic planning an and that's something I, I referred to a moment or two ago. Erm the following the the last meeting of the committee, erm the matter was er raised by your Chairman and er he asked me to send to all of you er a copy of an extract from the erm Commissions Report relating to Derbyshire and a copy of a Department of the Environment press release of the twenty second of October which refers to one or two things that er David Curry had said about strategic planning and that was sent out to all members of the committee on the twenty second of November and erm n not expecting you to have brought back with you or to have remembered exactly what it said, perhaps I can just erm refer to the, the options for erm strategic planning that were outlined by Mr Curry in that press release and i the er erm er paper that he had delivered. Er the three options were joint authorities er this would mean er unitary authorities within an area joining together and forming some sort of er joint committee arrangements and joint staffing arrangements to prepare a plan over a wider area. There would be erm the possibility of the unitary authorities themselves getting together to prepare joint structure plans, so in as, as, instead of having a joint authority with er members joining in, in one committee to oversee the preparation of the plan, there would be individual authorities er working to their own committees with members er operating separately, but preparing through that mechanism a joint structure plan and the third option would be for each authority itself to prepare a unitary development plan, incorporating both strategic policies and the sorts of policies that we are currently seeing and familiar with in local plans. Now I think that the concern that erm I have, and it's shared by colleagues I have to say at both County and at er District Council level, is that none of those will really fully provide a proper strategic planning service and therefore the, the, the threat to proper forward planning of a coordinated nature across a wider area of land such as is er currently taking place in Sussex, West Sussex and other counties and which is desperately needed as we've seen in the context of the flooding that we've just been talking about, that is in er great danger of being undermined and the alternatives that the government is, is putting forward would in my view not go anywhere at all towards meeting the needs of strategic planning. As well therefore as the arguments er that we are familiar with about er local government and the effect that it might have or might not have on West Sussex, one particular argument is I think erm something that this committee should be very concerned about an and should be er seeking to influence the, the outcome over is that of future of structure planning and the strategic planning as a whole. I, I hope I've covered the ground that you were hoping I would Chairman. If you want me to say anything more just give me a kick and I'll add something more. No I simply wanted members to be aware that there is a very issue. Mr . Thank you Chairman. Er with reference to the great pestilence er makes me think of the original great pestilence, the Black Death and of course er contaminated individuals be put in a pest house far away from places of habitation but they can contaminate others which one can't help thinking that it would be quite a good policy has commissioned. And perhaps we could open up the pest house I can seriously erm comments really made my blood run cold, particularly on option three. The idea of unitary authorities structure plans, er I think could only be a disaster and the first option which is the most viable, could of course be a dissipation of democracy of the indirect democracy er because erm I think what you probably have is a number of officers, civil servants and a scattering of councillors er and really the the direct local involvement which we have now through directly elected councillors on, on planning committees and strategic planning committees would have . I am also concerned that if these new unitary authorities come into effect, it seems er reasonable to assume the majority of members will be all the district councillors er whose involvement in planning of course is very different to our own and therefore their understanding of strategic planning, their appreciation of its importance will be far less and we could actually find that these planning committees authorities are really old district planning committees and the new and er there really could be quite serious implications for a whole number of things in Sussex I mean we know that the planning department is at the moment trying to erm create er a new and vibrant tourism in West Sussex I mean what would happen to that is just one example er on a broader level, the County Council is working with the European regions to promote West Sussex in Europe and what would happen to that, the only conclusion we could draw is that these policies would crumble and to er seriously affect West Sussex and finally I come back to the point that, that I will keep making, if I ever get the opportunity, namely the cost of this exercise. We know that the actual reorganization is going to cost thirty million I would have thought that every possible drainage problem could ever West Sussex could easily be rectified with thirty million pounds and we could all name a project er on which we would like to spend thirty million pounds. I would have thought it would be very difficult to find anyone in West Sussex who is enthusiastic and keen with thirty million pounds to be sent to the local government reorganization. All we can do I think is resist this strongly and the whole idea for reorganization particularly this time. We're stepping a bit outside. I was anxious to alert people to the to the specific issue of strategic planning I didn't want to step outside of that. Well perhaps we should now therefore move to the agenda proper. Application there have been three meetings er those meetings those. Er I just wanted one erm one, two three of the third of November er I guess that they gave erm information about Westbourne Parish Council's local paper er erm agreed. It isn't mentioned there. How do we deal with that? You just well it's local members tha tha that is, but the fact is that also you have er a letter from Westbourne Parish Council. Er Chairman And of committee and of sorry a special erm meeting between the four officers that produced minutes to all part and this was one of them about this particular issue, which just just is just to record that Westbourne's Parish Council's er views were taken into account. Chairman, if I if I may say that the erm the er minutes of that committee were approved by sub-committee at their subsequent meeting on the twenty fourth of November erm I don't think Absolutely. I, I, I see that y you weren't there at that meeting on No, but We, we can record that comment er now in a minute at Can we? Oh that's fine. this meeting but er the minutes have already been considered. Is that er is that Right, we receive er those three lots . Thank you. Now the mineral subs sub-committee. I, I did say to the County Planning Officer that I thought that whoever had wr written this er these pages have captured the very well er very si the spirit of that an and the er we seem to have a very successful meeting on that Yes. Yeah that indeed. and this conveys the flavour of that. We were most anxious to keep the full informed of what's happening and we seem to be on top of the job as it were. The person who wrote it Chairman is sitting over Ah. But I think it is important to keep the full committee abreast of the activities of the sub-committee. So we receive those. Now the capital programme and the revenue budget, I, I think you questions, it's not a big deal. Chairman, I, I, I, I'd love to, but I had agreed er with Jim that Jim will introduce this Oh, I'm sorry Whilst I'm happy to answer questions when they, when they arise, I wouldn't like to steal Jim's Sorry. Sorry. Okay. Committee has the choice to spend on capital and that's exercised through the a mechanism if you spend in capital in the mortgage charge comes through as a, as a revenue charge to you, so you have now paid for mortgage charges and capital schemes or you can pay for er for revenue schemes and this budget reflects its priority on revenue spending. The revenue budget then, there's a summary attached to appendix two here and the detail of the budget is, if the members, if the members are so interested and want to see the the spent. The headline is that the budget for ninety four ninety five is two point two million pounds and that's an increase of eighty four thousand pounds or four percent on the original budget for current year and that increase of eighty four thousand pounds and it's split into three elements for you. First was the increase for inflation and that comes to fifty three thousand pounds this is referred to in paragraph four thousand pounds is equivalent to two point six percent and the committee's fully protected for inflation. The second element is the real increased resources for the committee and that comes to thirty five thousand pounds and that's something at one point six percent. Now if you can just say on that, that that excludes any resources for the economic development action plan and for the time being resources for that initiative are being held centrally into Personnel and Finance sub-committee's budget and as the action plans develop then money will be released from a contingency there to er go to the Planning Department or to whichever department that has actually been implementing that particular part of the action. The final element in the change of eighty four thousand pounds between years is the reduction in the committee's budget four thousand pounds for efficiency savings, which we discussed and agreed at the meeting in September. Focusing then on how the new money has been spent, and this is covered in paragraph seven and eight of the report the thirty five thousand pounds conditional resources for Policy Resources Committee has been added to by six thousand seven hundred which er savings from existing budgets within the committee so there's a total of forty one thousand seven hundred to er each new developments or er or other pressures within the committee and the items that you see before you here have been discussed between the Chairman and Vice-Chairman of this committee er County Planning Officer and Chairman and Vice-Chairman of the Policy Resources Committee, so it's these sorts of discussions that these items have arisen in front of you. If I can reasonably summarize what they are there, there's four items there er outlined in paragraph eight. Firstly there's additional support which will take the form of additional members of staff to support with a range of er initiatives and developments within the department erm there's a lot Planning Department, in terms of economic development and tourism developments, local planning work erm making applications for grants and,an and there's a need for additional support to support that range of work there. The second item is the loss of grant for an archaeology assistant three thousand eight hundred pounds, this is one of these things where we've had English Heritage at our grant and has tapered to fade out. This is final year, ninety four is the final year of that grant, so to maintain the enhanced level of service that there were it was set up we'd need to put some of our own money into that. The item below that is the shortfall in planning application fees, this is application fees for er mineral extraction applications which are, these are set as a statutory charge erm we've picked up in the budget monitoring reports which have been to previous committees that the from this source has been falling off, as a few words explain that in this paragraph. We anticipate a shortfall of fifteen thousand pounds compared to our original budget and what we've done in that is we've taken an element of seven thousand in a sense below the line so that it doesn't affect this committee, but this committee has had to find eight thousand pounds with that shortfall and now the bulk of that has been met by the savings we found elsewhere in the budget and the final item there is er setting up a consultants budget of ten thousand pounds, there's not a consultants budget of any significance at, at the moment of the committee erm the County Planning Officer anticipates there's a need for consultants in the minerals local plan work which we're coming into this year and also to assist in environmental assessments er and special on that. So these are the areas for the new monies being spent and as I said earlier as the economic development action plan is developed, it will be an opportunity to go forward to the th th t t to fund that initiative. The recommendations in paragraph ten er ask you to approve the capital programme and the revenue budget and the staffing for the committee and that, that's the increase of the one post I mean I referred to you earlier and if the committee approves this budget, will put forward to the Policy and Resources Committee on the thirty first of January which will consolidate the budgets for all the er services and make final decisions on how that's to be and reset for the next . Thank you. Thank you Jim. Now Constance . Thank you Chairman. I've forgotten my new year's resolution which is to use christian names. Well I must say I, I very much it. Very much. Back, back to basics. Back to basics. Just one or two erm questions if I may erm reduction in use of staff advertising this is what we're looking at when we're talking about we've managed to do that unless we don't anticipate in the near future when we've already . Erm er changes in the central charges which always intrigues me I'd like to know and erm if I may go back to erm paragraph seven where we're saying you know allocated thirty five thousand in the committee development over and above the effects of inflation an and this subject six thousand seven hundred recycled savings is available for some revenue development or mortgage charges and then if we look at eight and shortfall in planning applications we are going to use that six thousand seven hundred to write off a shortfall in the planning applications. Come off it I'm afraid, we can't do them both ways . Right. We'll, we'll deal with the points of their . Neil . Yes I I don't believe it will have major clarification erm on the administrative support, shown there as nineteen thousand nine hundred for an additional senior member of staff, if you look at appendix sorry the on personnel shows the pay cost as one thousand two hundred and sixty one pounds. I just wonder, I mean is the nineteen thousand six hundred a full year cost, so which figure is right ? I just misunderstood the whole the whole figures. That's point one erm point two on the planning application fees I realize that a number of planning applications are down somewhere else erm it says that planning application fees are going to be increased by fifteen percent and there by thirteen percent. Is that and the third thing is erm I frankly don't understand perhaps it's the same point as er that this below the line item, I mean it's taken below the line it must come from somewhere. I just don't understand, I don't understand th the way it works. Alan . Yeah thank you Chairman. Point four the sums included with the paying increase, the one point five and negotiated seven staff and er on that or are we sort of governed by the financial cr criteria government and also are there other departments or staff within the Town Hall will receive a higher increase . I think that's your six questions. Right I think I've got six down here. Erm taking on the here. On the question of staff turnover erm on the saving advertising I think that reflects th the drop of staff turnover over the years and there is a budget which is an historical budget against that and clearly in the current situation less staff are leaving like that erm so that's one of these . The central charges as items is that it refers to the charges from my own department, legal department, all the other central departments and an input to er the Strategic Planning Committee operating, but it's not items that the Strategic Planning Committee has a control over, so there's a change, an estimated change of cost and sometimes that reflects the changes in methodology of agricultural cost and that seems to be happening at the moment. So you get the cost for that, you also get the budget for it, so it doesn't affect the the resources in that sense . The question on The methodology if I may use the word I dislike it intensely erm questionable point. Th this is something that is developing members will be aware of the er proposals for er competition for white collar services and we sh we recharge these costs at the moment historic leases and the central departments are at the moment developing er trading accounts for all these and as we develop that work we we can correct our previous charges so there will be some sort of changes in the way we charge and as I say that's coming through in these costs committees because it's it's shifting money around between different committees so we shifted the budget at the same time. I mean that's the som that's er an issue that er has been dealt with I think it's policy resources can continue to be so in the coming years. On the personnel table, I I'm not quite sure about the standard point, there is one edition that the pay cost is one million hundred and sixty one thousand total cost I'm sorry. Well can I can I amend my question I mean is the is that a full year cost or is it let me try it again erm . It is a full year cost, there will be some on costs included in that. Right. Next one. Can I deal with the inflation ones first as being er point I, there was a question on the paragraph four in the amongst inflation or was it the appendix. If I can explain inflation which included in the budget at this stage is inflation between November ninety two and November ninety three, so inflation from today if you like er or last November, through to the end of the year, that is provided for in the central contingency of the authority and as pay awards are awarded the money we drawn down from that into the planning committee so the amount there would one point five percent of pay and four point two percent from general commission, that's reflecting inflation that's already happening and is up last year's budget to to the position today if you like so one point five percent of pay was the A P T C award for July ninety two, sorry ninety three and we're not anticipating here what the pay award will be for the coming year, that is dealt with centrally. Planning application fees. Well John says he can answer that. John and I had long discussions on planning applications, I shall be interested to hear Who's going to do it? I'll try first yes if I may. Erm first, first of all erm Sue has, has just er reminded me that the, the government is, is considering the matter of planning application fees and we understand that there could be some proposals which erm modify the way in which er those fees are set and may give a greater erm autonomy to local authorities to set their own level of fees, in order to allow them to erm recoup erm more of or perhaps even all of the costs of operating the service, but that is something that's er definitely for the future er and er is, is not entirely . For the moment we have to charge the fee, we cannot waive it, but we have to charge it, but we have to charge it at the level that is set by the government and which is subject to review and er and er Mr has, has drawn our attention to has recently been increased. The problem however is there's, there is no standard fee per application and er I think that that's not at all unreasonable. The fee there is according to the size and scale of development. U unfortunately it's not a perfect system because in relation to mineral applications, whilst as you would expect the largest fees are associated with the largest areas of er application for new mineral working and whilst it has to be admitted that those sorts of applications do take a lot of time in order to process them. The amount of time, officer time taken to process an application for a modification to an existing permission is still substantial and in some cases can be even more than that per a new proposal, but in those circumstances, and this is just by way of illustration because the the actual fee regime is, is very variable, by way of illustration the fee chargeable for a a, a modification is much less than for the application as a whole er f for, for the er er working as a whole. Now in recent years, what has happened is that because of the recession, mineral operators instead of looking for enormous new areas to work have been seeking to erm improve er through their own review processes, the working within their existing sites and perhaps to go for some modest increases, so the number of applications has kept up, the amount of work that we are engaged in has er been at least as much as in the past and in some cases because of enforcement matters has been greater, but the fee income has been slipping. I have some illustrative figures in front of me erm which I I thought a question of this nature might, might crop up, erm th the figures aren't absolutely accurate, they were pulled off the file very quickly and er they may be out by er er er er a small amount, but they, they certainly illustrate the point. In er nineteen eighty nine ninety financial year for example there were forty one applications and the fee income from that was forty four thousand. Erm in the following year the number of applications went up by something over twenty percent up to fifty four, but the total fee income fell slightly. In the following year, ninety one ninety two, the number of applications held steady, but the total fee income declined slightly and in nineteen ninety two ninety three, whilst the number of applications fell slightly, the fee income fell considerably, so that in ninety two ninety three er there were more applications than in the,th the first of those, of those years that I quoted, but the fee income was twenty five percent down. The current year, the ninety three ninety four year I have figures only up to the end of December and in comparison to the previous full twelve months the number of applications is almost as high in the first three quarters of the year but the fee income is about half what had been received for the full previous year and that is the problem that we're facing, that the number of applications, the amount of work is, is staying the same or is indeed increasing slightly, er but the fee income, because of the nature of the the applications and the fee regime that is charged, is actually falling off quite rapidly. That may change and as we move out of the recession hopefully, er the er erm position will improve, but it does mean that for next year we are not in a position to er achieve the level of income that the, the current year's budget er required us to and which er on a normal knock-on basis as this element of the budget moves on from year to year, we wouldn't er have very much hope I would er put to you of actually meeting the level of income that would allow us to operate er a standstill budget in, in this area. I'm still not sure whether Thank you Chairman. Sorry. Really that's very interesting and I accept that erm I personally was do the figures include the anticipated increase which we already know? Yes. A short answer very much shorter answer is yes. I, I, I think later on increases from January ninety four and January ninety five if I'm right, that doesn't include these increases, these are prices based on there will be financial year you get fifteen percent on whatever Yes but then you would, we would in fact budget increase as well in the same way as you'll when there's an, if if there was a pay award and you get an inflation allowance with the pay award the same way as in the statutory charges increases budget will increase as well, which in that sense was against Now there's one more question outstanding the below the line manoeuvring of recycled savings. Th this does come back to the planning application erm the normal disciplines that the County Council applied on income headings is that if income varies for reasons of er conditions for example and this is in a way akin to that, then the committee normally has to find these erm er the additional resources to cover tha that income erm I have had long discussions with John on this and th the point that he was putting there was er demonstrating that income had followed the amount of work perhaps has not fallen and the below the line item is a recognition in the part of that argument i in a sense for fifty-fifty between below the line reaching seven thousand erm and we've identified savings and other heads for example the staff advertising example where reduction in turnover, there's no effective service saving there, so these such things can go towards meeting this income conditions. So this some sort of deal perhaps there which we think is a reasonable an and fair balance in the end of the committee. on this, but isn't the below the outline item coming out in somebody else's pocket?central It comes out yes yes. Thank you. I'm hopeful that we can put this matter to bed though, cos a lot of big issues appear Yes the clock is ticking over. Can we very good. that one uses today has a connotation of One has to be so careful. Thank you. Good. May we move on therefore to this very important work programme which I think a very substantial matter Thank you Chairman erm this is, this is er er obviously er a very important item, but I think that most of the information that it contains would already be familiar to members erm and bearing in mind that I, I've only a moment or two ago gave a very long answer to Mr 's question when I, I could simply have said yes. Erm I Well I, I, I think that Jim and I cou could discuss the state of which has been taken into account or not and we,w we would probably end up giving you a different answer but erm I mean w we I don't want to go back to that I, I'll leave that, I'll leave that, I'll These are important questions, should we charge for lifting cows out of ditches I've seen. You know. Erm th there are one or two things that perhaps I can say that might help in relation to er to this particular report erm and you'll see that er there are references in here to the workload of the erm minerals er erm team and the, the planning application for the coming year. I, I won't get drawn into that again but in draft eleven point one there is reference to the fact that a copy of the report that went to the Policy Coordination sub-committee er was er a attached and in fact er it isn't attached. That missing report has been put round the table this morning and I hope that members of the committee would have found it and would be able to add it to that I apologise for that omission erm it's er erm one of those things that er er does I'm afraid from time to time happen. Erm the er most important item I think Chairman is the work programme for the future year which commences at erm about twelve and forms the second half of the report and I would be very happy to deal with any questions and it is very clearly in the light of things that we've already said, the first part of er that latter half of the report er which er emphasises the erm principal activities er to the department er that of strategic policy in paragraphs thirteen one, thirteen two and thirteen three are therefore perhaps the areas to which I would er draw you attention er most, but the report as whole is er I hope a reasonably succinct summary of what has gone on or what is proposed to be done and er in order to avoid simply what is already in the report, I, I would leave it at that point and say I'm happy to deal with any questions. And nobody seems to be itching to speak on this report. Not a an eyebrow raised. Er do we approve it then? Approved. Well that's splendid. Thank you very much and thank you for a very well . Right, the complaints procedures. Chris are you happy? No, I'm I've lost er this is er a brief report of three complaints. Item Yes. Do we do we er leave that for the ? Yes. without wishing to sound er Neil? I would agree with that, but I would just like to pick up three two of there have been one or two instances felt that they have necessarily make aware perhaps that something's coming up in er difficult, but I just wanted to mention that er I don't know what the procedures are actually, but I mean it d didn't seem to be one or two cases not saying it necessarily the department's fault, I'm er just making the point. You want to speak Erm Chairman, I'm, I can certainly confirm that it is our policy to er notify with a copy of the report the erm er member in whose area an application erm is. Erm the only example that I can think of where that went wrong was where there was a delay in the post but er we certainly do endeavour, it was er it was something which we've introduced in the last erm eighteen months and it's been welcomed by members and er it is certainly our intention to give everyone as much notice as possible. It is very important to have the local member present to say his thing, because it does inform and influence outcomes. Er we had a very good example of that in application sub the other day with where I'm sure it was very helpful to have that input and there is considerable respect paid for the patch view in planning in my experience and I think that's very healthy. I can only hope that when the system has changed, that the man in Guildford will listen to the patch. I'm serious about that, it grieves me greatly the possibility that he may not hear what the patch has to say. Well Mr is, is, is asking the questions which which for a long time. Just to add to what's been said erm there, there have been some points raised er along the lines I've mentioned and as a result of that erm it is felt that erm notification to members who are not on the application sub-committee of applications which affect their ward area could be improved and that is er I hope to be the subject of a report to the next meeting of the Application Sub-Committee, so that er matter i is something which is, which is being picked up and will be considered by that sub-committee but it does give me the opportunity to say that erm the definition of a complaint i is certainly not a precise one and I certainly wouldn't want members of this committee to feel that I was being complacent er as a result of there only being three complaints that we received. Erm certainly there are other er comments and statements that have been through the year which er should and has caused us to look at our procedures and to erm make changes where that is appropriate and I would hope that er we would continue to do so. There is also er as, as well as recognizing that there are some things that perhaps we might have er concluded, but because of the er nature of the definition have fallen outside inclusion of this report. There is reference in paragraph two point two to the local ombudsman and I, I, I should perhaps add that during the year in question, there is one current matter er which er with the subject of the referral to the local ombudsman and that of course has not been included because of definition reasons in this report. That particular single matter was not pursued by the ombudsman an and that therefore means that erm it isn't something that er he felt was a question of maladministration but I did want just to emphasise that this particular point, because in the more er i in the recent report to the Policy Resources Committee on ombudsman complaints, the number, and I can't recall exactly what the number was, but the number included in that report relating to planning matters was certainly higher than one, I think there were about half a dozen and what I wanted to take the opportunity of explaining was the, the majority of those all but the one that I've now referred to, er where in fact relating to district matter planning applications and not to the County Council. So if there's any er er erm thought that the er ombudsman complaints were running at a high level as far as this committee's interest were concerned, I can confirm that that isn't in fact the case. Yes. Thank you. Can I just congratulate er the County Planning Officer on operating in an oasis o of, of if I can put it that way. Erm good one thank you report to the Highways Committee complaints I think he's er perhaps remarkably lucky in operating this way and er i it's er a great credit to the department in terms of The is interesting because of course planning is an eggshells area where you have to tiptoe delicately through the tulips. Well, you've heard what the members say and er let us hope that you continue in this very sensitive area and handle these er matters with er care and sensitivity. Can we move on can we move on to er general item A. I thought that, and I'm not an expert in but I thought this was a penetrating critique and all goes well for how the department is handling in a very difficult starting situation, a most important matter but there is Mr spoke to me about this paper and er I think we will have to hear what Mr had to say, I don't know who's going to report that. Yes? Mr has not spoken to me about this I it's oh it's a nice noise, I beg your pardon. Not this one. Sorry, next one. I'm I'm rather relieved at that because otherwise I would Sorry I got the wrong item, I, my note is not very good. Sorry Chairman. Erm, first of all Alan . Yes. Yeah, thank you Chairman just new development on the question of transport that's been considered that people might be using the train more travelling to Europe than they had done previously I dunno if that has been considered Channel Tunnel, but perhaps it's something that erm . Er thank you Mr Chairman. I, I erm would like to reiterate what you said about the quality of this report which I think Patrick had a finger in, I suspect. No, no, no, no no You're not Well in that case I'm er it's still a compliment still intended whoever wrote it. Well it's John , I did ask who was behind I do beg your pardon it and it's his team. Right erm I would just like to mention that it doesn't say here that the A P C have set up er a separate er lobby group erm on which I have the honour to be a member with Patrick er to try and influence the MPs because one of the things which er is coming out and it's it's actually shown in paragraph three point three A at the bottom, the questioning whether the demand should be necessarily met or whether in fact, and this links to the government's present erm reluctance to direct airlines to work from current unused capacity for example at, at erm at Luton and I think that there may well be some pressure put that er we should try and change that. Thi this is something which has come out in several places I don't know whether the members noted it, erm the er it also touches on, on, on what my colleague said earlier and the item in paragraph V er the assumption of the demand remain much as it is, heavily towards the South East particularly Gatwick. We, we, I think er in the discussions we've had there is a, there is a movement towards questioning some of the premises. That's really what I was saying. Good. Neil . get on, but it's a very important matter this . Er I what's been said about the report and I think it identifies the main issues. I would just like to emphasise particularly the erm I'm very pleased consultants working on it, because I think this is the Achilles heel in the in the Gatwick case. I think that is of very considerable importance. The other thing which is actually mentioned that we one of the worst aspects was done and I personally tried to look at what the impact on road building around elsewhere and it is absolutely appalling and er I think that is something which is to be, I'm sure it will be, will be called out. I think it is an area where and I think it needs to be will be doing that. And the final thing on three two er the question of how far I know this has not been asked today I don't people with er three or four page briefing get the summary I do think that the sort of and there's a great deal of voluntary activity going on and I think if we can support that, that would, be that would be great. So I have one final point erm I won't go into that, but I just hope that our membership to the Airport Policy Consortium Gatwick. The danger when you are in a group which is representing a number of airports Can we just hear what Harold wanted, to do you wish to speak? No Oh. you wanted to. Well I do want to come back in fact an and reassure er you that er in fact er we are very concerned about that and we spend a great deal of time talking about the A P C's erm statement policy of intent because it was intended to be modified in the way which we thought would and we spent quite a lot of time erm discussing and am re-amending the importance . David ? erm and bearing in mind Mr 's comments about er could he have thought we translated into rather more layman's language and say well the capacity of the roads do actually deliver and extract people from Gatwick mathematical modelling is pretty suspect stuff but erm but at least it would er if that is true if it is not capable of actually er sensibly erm er allowing arrivals and departures er onto our road network without causing I think all they're doing is pushing the problem onto us er and we ought to major new road building Well quite put the roads on the map Well okay, but you've gotta say that the present network is not capable of either delivering or extracting er Ken ? Erm these erm transport to the South East transport surely the the following item on increase which is forecast, this will encourage erm to use and increase the traffic in Gatwick erm airports that's er Good point. Surely the er two are linked. Good point. Right. Chairman. Sorry? Er it was just to enquire i i if we're getting this input from Ah the members er yes, I th the, the answer about the Redhill monster is that erm Redhill didn't submit to a it's er it's beyond, it's outside of the they, they, they made er er a conscious decision that they would deal with it in their own peculiar way. So it's nothing to do with by their own choice so I understand. It should be something this committee erm tends to Oh yes and er the I pass all the correspondence I have to the County Planning Officer who deals with it with the most enormous efficiency and I hope that he is maintaining liaison with what I call the Rucatse Group which consists of , Neil and Tony and somebody from Crawley who is I think it's Tony Tony , but there is an accepted group of members who are taking a very close and efficient interest in what is happening at this er Can I pass all my correspondence on to members of I would be grateful if you would, yes. Keep them er well informed. This is I think there is an administrative question how we handle this and it seems to be running very well. Might the Mr Chairman I was just wondering if it's worth just mentioning that the, since the Redhill Airport proposal which does include a privately funded motorway link erm point erm has gone to and has been called in to the determination I believe by the Minister, but er we are sort of pending er holding our horses until that er er is nearer the time is that not perhaps We, we are er Chairman involved in Redhill proposals in so far as we have submitted erm a series of er points to the local authorities concerned and tomorrow er as it happens is the date for the pre-enquiry meeting, the enquiry is due to be held er in I think late spring May er time, I'm not sure of the exact date Twen twenty third of March Twenty third of March? As soon as that, beg your pardon. Erm but the pre-enquiry meeting is taking place tomorrow and we are represented at that meeting John is going along. At the present time it isn't the intention that your officers should present er evidence in person at that enquiry, er our er representations haven't er put in, in writing, but that is pending what happens at tomorrow's meeting an and that position might change. Erm I, I er much of the compliment that you paid t to me and the department in terms of the efficiency that we've, which we're dealing with the correspondence, I, I am conscious of the fact that in something of this nature those er members that you mentioned, some of them are, are here this morning erm are, are not er s receiving er a regular erm series of er erm letters or, or pieces of information from the department and it's very much an ad hoc situation erm and at the moment as far as is concerned, we are waiting for the the completion of some of the reporting before we erm er submerge them with er a, a, a, a lot of paper, but if there are any particular issues that erm any of those members or indeed any other members erm particularly wants to pursue, er th th the position is as it is on, on any matter, please do get in touch. We will try to keep our er flow of paper outwards, but if we er are failing or if there are any questions as to well why haven't we heard anything from w for a while, please do get in touch. Er I think there was only one question that was raised during the er course of the discussion Chairman which erm Mike assured and Mr raised the point about the Channel Tunnel, the effect that that might have of er erm passenger Gatwick. Erm that in fact er whether it's been on board accurately by the report er or not is, is a matter for er question, but it was something that they bore in mind when they where reaching their conclusion, so they believe that they have taken it into account. So are members happy that this is in safe hands and er proceeding satisfactorily? Yes. Now we come on to an immediate question, night flights which er there is concern about. I don't know whether Mr 's concern to be satisfactorily dealt with by officers. I, I, I think so Chairman, I, I, I think Mr Buck's basic point er relates to the position of the Gatwick Airport Consultative Committee er which this committee appoints two members to Mr and erm Mr Erm Mr interest rates, will Britain do the same? And twentieth Century technology rebuilds the glory that was Rome. police have launched a murder enquiry following the killing of a community policeman and another man in South London last night. P C Patrick Dunn had been called to a minor disturbance at a house in Clapham. In what police say was a tragic coincidence, gunfire was heard from a house across the street. He went to investigate and was murdered. His killers are said to have run off laughing. The other man was found dead nearby, he too had been shot in what may have been a drugs related killing. Police are tonight questioning three men. Home beat police constable Patrick Dunn didn't have to deal with the reported disturbance last night, at twenty eight Cato Road Clapham, but knowing the area, he said he'd go, on his bicycle as ever. While there he heard shots from across the road at number thirty one, stepped out to investigate and by what the Metropolitan police Commissioner called a tragic coincidence of events, was shot dead almost immediately by one of three men. Another man, apparently the victim of a drugs dispute, had been shot dead inside thirty one. A police surveillance operation had been taking place at the house, though not last night. Patrick Dunn was unmarried, forty four and came to the police late after a teaching career. As floral tributes built up, it became evident how much he was held in affection and esteem by local people. He was loved so much, it's unbelievable that it's happened. It really is. He helped everybody in the local community. You know, in my opinion it's like I've lost one of my own family. P C Dunn's boss, the Metropolitan police Commissioner, paid this tribute to the dead constable. He was a good, honest, kind, gentle local bobby. Er doing what the Met does best, doing what British policing does best, working with his local community. He was a total gentleman. There's just there's just no other words to describe them. A man who cared about what he did. A very well liked man in the community, a very well liked man at the station and erm I I can't speak highly enough of the man. This afternoon, P C Dunn's brother Ivan described Patrick's qualities. He could deal with people, erm he could communicate with people, he was always there to help with our problems and I'm sure he felt that he could help erm you know the community and and the beat that on which he was a home beat officer. In his earlier career, Patrick Dunn taught maths and was responsible for the welfare of fifth formers at this school in Bolton. A former colleague explained why he left for the police. He noticed as we'd all noticed that in in respect of law and order that things were really going from bad to worse, were deteriorating. And it concerned him an awful lot and it it it irritated him and frustrated him and I think he set his sights on trying to do something about it in his his way. This afternoon in Stockwell near the murder scene, three men were spotted in a Nissan car by a police foot patrol following a tip off. They were stopped and arrested in a brief operation involving thirty police. The vehicle was taken away for forensic tests. This evening the men arrested are being questioned and police have appealed for witnesses who may have seen three men running from the area of the shooting last night. Laurie Margolis, B B C News, Clapham, South London. Police say a battle for territory between crack cocaine dealers has been behind a series of recent shootings in South London. There have been four drugs related killings in the area this year. P C Dunn's murder has again raised the question of whether more police should carry firearms. Although Cato Road in Clapham is not a known haunt of crack dealers, police suspect it's the violence associated with this drug in particular, which has now claimed two more lives including that of a policeman. The officer leading the murder hunt, used to head a special ongoing operation in South London, against so called yardie gangs from Jamaica. Over the past three years, raids have been carried out as police target crack dealers who've been behind many shootings and violent assaults. There have already been four drug related murders in South London this year, and more than seventy incidents involving firearms. Experience in the capital and Manchester has shown, the level of violence linked to crack, make it very different from other drug trafficking. What we've had in parts of London are so called turf wars between crack crack dealers, crack sellers, fighting for territory. And we believe that several murders have been as a result of that sort of tension. The police response to the increasing number of criminals prepared to use guns, has been to train firearms specialists and make sure they're available all the time at short notice. In that sense, Britain already has an armed police force. But drugs related crime is posing an ever bigger challenge. Individual chief constables may in the light of particular circumstances, consider that their drugs officers should in fact be armed and that is for the decision for as I say the individual chief officer. So there could be cases where officers on particularly dangerous assignments, need to be armed and in which case, they will be armed. Few would favour police officers being armed as a matter of routine, but work at the sharp end is undoubtedly becoming sharper. It reminds us of the deadly risks which our police officers run on on our behalf, day and night. Er and I would want to express my deepest sympathy to police constable Dunn's family. Er I'm sure that er the Metropolitan Police will be doing everything possible to track down those who are responsible for this evil act and bring them to justice. Many police officers will want to remind the Home Secretary as he prepares his response to the Sheahy report that they take special risks and deserve special treatment. Neil Bennet, B B C News. Another man was shot dead in London this afternoon, it happened outside Shepherd's Bush underground station. The victim, who's not been identified, was hit in the chest and died shortly afterwards. His attacker ran off. The area has been sealed off and police marksmen have surrounded a local shop. No motive has been established for the attack. The chief inspector of prisons, Judge Stephen Tumim, has published a damning report into the causes of the riot at Wymott prison in Lancashire last month. He said the prison was close to anarchy and it was widely known that there was a strong risk of violence. It's estimated that the riot at the low security jail caused damage costing twenty million pounds. The Wymott disturbances lasted eight hours. Four hundred prisoners were involved in the worst prison rioting since Strangeways. Fortunately no-one was seriously hurt and no inmate escaped but the risk of trouble had been spotted and little done to stop it. That night, just seven prison officers were coping with seven hundred and fifty inmates, many violent street gang criminals, involved with drugs and too dangerous for a low security jail. There'd been incidents of violence between gangland type er warfare between inmates. Manchester, Liverpool don't get on very well and there was a drugs problem, a very bad drugs problem er which had been brought in from their normal way of life outside. The rioters wrecked accommodation blocks, workshops, and classrooms. it will cost up to twenty million pounds to repair the destruction. Judge Tumim went to inspect the jail next day, and he said his overwhelming impression was of the powerlessness of Wymott staff in the face of organized criminal activity. In his report, Judge Tumim said the prison had been very close to anarchy in the months before the riot. He said his original inspection had found a world of drugs, drug dealing and bullying. And he described Wymott as, No more than an open prison with a fence around it. Tonight the prison service reacted to Judge Tumim's report. Of his forty seven recommendations for action at Wymott, thirty five were already being put into effect. No further building will be commissioned without cellular accommodation. So in other words, all new accommodation will be of a cellular type. But it's the it's the present estate if you like, that will take us time. Government figures released today show that like Wymott at the time of the riot, nearly a third of prisons in England and Wales are overcrowded, several housing seventy percent more prisoners than they were designed for. But the prison service sees the underlying problem of drugs in the jails like Wymott, as a priority and action has already been initiated. John Thorne, B B C News, Wymott Prison. Business leaders here have welcomed an unexpected cut in Germany's main interest rate. The Bundesbank reduced its discount rate by a half of one percent to five point seven five percent. The move should help stimulate economies on the continent where recession has been weakening the market for British exports. Germany's rate is now below Britain's and that's adding to pressure for a cut in rates here. The news boosted shared prices to a new record. The Bundesbank has never been an institution to bow to public pressure. It's been slow to cut interest rates, believing Germany's four percent inflation is too high. But with inflation there on its way down and the economy bumping along the bottom of a recession, the Bundesbank Council decided it could tolerate another downward step. The city welcomed the move, believing the rate cut'll be followed throughout Europe, particularly on the continent where German decisions still dominate economic policy making. Despite pressure from its European partners, Germany has only reduce its rates very slowly. While Britain was in the E R M until September last year, our interest rates could never knowingly undercut those of Germany. But when we left, our rates fell and they fell quickly. Today's move means though that he German discount rate is below our base rate for the first time in a year. So will Britain now follow the Germans down? This latest cut does shift the balance of arguments in favour of reducing U K rates but there are other factors that the Chancellor will need to take into account. If the recovery is faltering he'll clearly want to be more keen to cut interest rates, and also he'll want to take into account the effect of any tax increases he may introduce in his budget. A rate cut would not be an easy decision. The Bank of England which has less influence than its German counterpart has been reluctant to advise rate cuts over here. The Bank is worried about inflation which has been edging up recently. On the other hand, industry wants rates cut. Car production and trade figures released today, highlight the difficulties that British manufacturers are having in selling their products overseas. Lower interest rates would keep the pound down and keep exports competitive. Most of the advice Kenneth Clarke's receiving is to cut rates, his job now is to decide whether Britain's economy is more in danger of boiling over or going off the boil completely. Evan Davies, B B C News. British U N Soldiers at a base in Central Bosnia have been forced to move out under heavy mortar fire. More than two thirds of the troops at have withdrawn from the town leaving around seventy soldiers there. The attack was launched by Croat soldiers on Muslim positions in which is on the front line between the opposing sides. The main British base is thirty miles away Vitez. From the area, our correspondent Alan Little reports. It began with seven mortar rounds in quick succession, then shelling, often at the rate of one a minute for five hours with no let-up. Take a look at the cook house, one British truck driver said, It's history. An artillery shell struck here at breakfast time, but by now the base was on red alert, its soldiers under cover. No-one was hurt. Shortly after seven o'clock this morning the Bosnian Croats launched and attack on one of the suburbs of er and there was some intense fighting er in and around the Unprofor base. We've evacuated er two thirds of the base er to a more secure area. We'll just sit out the present fighting and see what happens. Others were less sanguine. These civilian truck drivers were among more than a hundred evacuated to safer positions. They were glad to be out. The Bosnian army were being pounded, they said. soldiers down in a a wheelbarrow. All the dead soldiers. I've never seen anything like it in my life. I don't want to see it again really. A hundred and twenty eight soldiers and civilian staff were moved out on the order of the base commander, some showing the signs of their ordeal. It is not the first time the British have found themselves in the path of an offensive, it is the first time they've evacuated, in such numbers and with such urgency. lies on the most important aid route into Central Bosnia, which is why the British are here. But while the battle goes on, the aid does not get through, and in Central Bosnia, a million and a half people depend upon it. Alan Little, B B C News, near . A woman who was in danger of losing her home after she mortgaged it as security for her husband's business debts, has won the right to keep it following a victory in the House of Lords. Five Law Lords said, Banks must warn wives and partners of the risks they're taking before granting loans. Bridget O'Brien's been fighting attempts by Barclay's Bank to repossess her home for five years and her legal victory was welcomed by others with similar problems. The Law Lords found that she should have been fully informed by the bank that she was risking her whole house by guaranteeing a loan to her husband's business, not the limited amount she believed at the time. And if some of you can do well out of it and it will help you keep your homes, because at the end of the day, without our home, where are we? This is what it's all about. Mrs O'Brien here at her home in Slough, was told by her husband that the loan back in nineteen eighty seven was only for sixty thousand pounds, the bank didn't correct this or give her independent advice. The debt rose to a hundred and fifty thousand pounds and the bank obtained a repossession order. Today's judgement means that banks in future must make sure a spouse or partner is directly informed of risks. The judgement could help others whose homes are under threat for similar reasons. It's affected my health, it's affected my family and erm everyday it's there. You don't know whether y you just don't know what the future holds. Banks now urge customers to seek independent legal advice before signing guarantees. Banks haven't been pulling the wool over people's eyes by not telling them. In fact for many years, the banks have been telling people to seek legal independent advice er since March nineteen ninety two, this has been a requirement of all loans. Today's Law Lords judgement should keep Bridget O'Brien in her house, it will also mean that in future, a wife or partner only agrees to mortgage their home as security for a loan after being fully informed of the possible consequences. Wesley Kerr, B B C News, at the House of Lords. And the time is six sixteen and still to come, parents and teachers protest over plans to cut help for pupils whose first language isn't English. And farm workers complain that sheep dips are damaging their health. Hundreds of parents and teachers have lobbied Parliament to protest about the government's plan to cut help for pupils whose first language isn't English. Campaigners say, four thousand specialist teaching jobs could go if the government reduces the grant for teaching English as a foreign language. This is going to be your drum, now what about another drumstick? Have you got Anne Redding is a section eleven teacher, funded by a Home office scheme to promote racial equality, introduced by section eleven of the local government act. She works alongside the class teacher, helping pupils who don't speak English as their first language. Almost all the children in this school in Newham, East London, need help with their English. Children here don't lack any sort of ability it's because th they English isn't their first language so they need support in learning English to help them with the everyday necessities of the national curriculum. The government meets three quarters of the costs of section eleven projects, but that's being cut to half over the next two years. in Newham, that could mean shedding over a quarter of its section eleven teachers. Educationalists say that'll damage all pupils since, without support, class teachers won't be able to teach the rest of the class so effectively. The effect on a school would be devastating erm the school has already lost one teacher, the s the actual demand is increasing erm if we were to lose yet another teacher then what would we would be denying is education to the children, the best possible education. Which is what we're trying to provide. Today, lobbyists gathered at Westminster warning thousands of section eleven jobs are threatened nationally, but the Home Office says painful decisions are necessary in the current public spending round. At a time of heightened racial tension, cuts in English language support teaching are particularly sensitive. many ear that when the Home office cuts its grant from next April, local authorities won't be able to make up the shortfall. Mike Baker, B B C News, East London. Joh Commonwealth leaders have been attending the first day of their summit in Cyprus and protests by Greek Cypriots. Thousands of women formed a human chain along the route to Nicocea, where the opening ceremony was held, to protest against the Turkish occupation against the North of the island. The summit will spend the next four days discussing issues ranging from the division of Cyprus to the war in Bosnia. The Greek Cypriot hosts have hijacked the conference agenda. Government heads driving to the Nicocea opening found the fifty mile route lined with women, hands linked in protest at the world's and especially Britain's failure to reverse the nineteen seventy four invasion which has left thirty seven percent of the island in Turkish hands. Inside the conference hall, delegates were greeted with a highly unusual presentation mixing potent T V images of Hitler and the Holocaust, with flashbacks to that Turkish invasion. Some resented President Clarides' propaganda coup, but other delegation heads were immediately swayed. Why can't the same methods that were used by the Commonwealth yesterday vis a vis Rhodesia, vis a vis Namibia and vis a vis South Africa, not be applied in respect of the colonial and settlerist situation here. Elsewhere, with many teachers engaged in the fifty mile protest, hundreds of youngsters used their day out to protest at the green line barrier separating Greek and Turkish communities. Penetrating no man's land in a fracas which left three British U N peace keeping soldiers injured, before tear gas from the Greek police dispersed them. Later John Major urged Commonwealth heads to drive on world trade talks and pledged a crusade to ease poor countries debts. Apartheid arguments over, the Commonwealth's now seeking a new role spreading democracy, but the assembly lacks stars and so far the Cypriots have stolen the show. Robin Oakley, B B C News, Cyprus. John Prescot has been given one of the key posts in the new shadow cabinet. He moves from transport to employment, swapping jobs with Frank Dobson. But Harriet Harman stays as shadow Chief Secretary to the Treasury, despite being voted off the shadow cabinet by her fellow M Ps. Our political correspondent John Sople, reports from Westminster. For John Prescot today, not a discrete silence while waiting for the leader's call, he was making it clear that he wanted a swap to one of the top economic jobs. And having saved John Smith's skin at the Labour party Conference, with his rumbustious performance in the one member, one vote debate, Mr Prescot knew he was in a position to call in his debts. But tonight the new employment spokesman is putting a rather more modest gloss on it. Well I didn't demand job, nobody demands of John Smith. But I wanted to do employment, I want to get on with this kind of job, it's going to be a major political issue, and by God I'm gonna put it right up front. The prediction had been that these elections would result in more women and fewer Scots around the shadow cabinet table as a result of the voting system. But with the loss of one woman and the election at last of George Robertson, the reverse has happened. But John Smith has kept faith with some of those who've been most harshly criticized. Anne Taylor, the education spokesman, keeps her job and there's a big promotion for Clare Short who was sacked because of her opposition to the Gulf War. While Harriet Harman who lost her seat on the shadow cabinet and has been strongly criticized for he commons performances over the past year, keeps hers. I know I do have the confidence of the backbenchers to carry on with this particular job as well as the confidence of the leader and the shadow Chancellor. John Smith's always made clear that he wanted to make the minimum number of changes to his shadow cabinet and with the exception of John Prescot's move, he's shown his determination to do that by making the minimum number of changes. But some are also saying, it's been a missed opportunity to make a more radical shake up to a shadow cabinet where some members performances have been notable lack lustre. John Sople, B B C News, Westminster. Toxic chemicals contained in sheep dip may be banned after complaints from some farmers who say their health has been damaged by the dip. A government advisory committee is meeting to decide whether organo-phosphates or O Ps as the chemicals are known, are safe for continued use. Manufacturers of sheep dip say there's no evidence to link the pesticides with ill-health. Dipping sheep in a bath of pesticide is an annual chore for farmers. The work is hot, tiring and very messy. But far more alarming is mounting evidence that the chemicals which poison sheep parasites may be poisoning farmers as well. At the weekly sheepmart, farmers come to compare prices, but they also compare experiences of sheep dipping. On the way back from moving the sheep, I felt as if I'd had a night in the pub, started feeling very wheezy and, Oh this is good. Anyway I finally got back, washed the lorry out and I just couldn't finish washing the wagon out. I started to feel sick, was vomiting, I had very bad diarrhoea and I sort of stayed in bed for like a couple of days, very very poorly. At twenty nine Somerset farmer Julian Westcot fears his working life may be over. He was hospitalized this Summer after shearing sheep which had been dipped in O Ps. I was laid up for five weeks, couldn't do any work whatsoever and just sleep, cuss the family, be generally grumpy, tired and achy. When I took him in he was at such a stage he had to go in in a wheelchair. Erm he couldn't walk at all. He was I think he'd passed out in the car. The mobile dip Julian worked on now lies abandoned. The man with the power to ban O P dips is Professor James Armor, Vice Principal of Glasgow University and chairman of the government's veterinary products committee. It's whether they will be withdrawn or not. I Obviously I can't preempt a discussion, but if we think on the evidence we see in in October that er that that is the course to take, we would do so. But if we do not think that, er or we think there are possibly problems in in relation to to using protective clothing, we will also do that. The Agriculture Minister Gillian Shephard will make the final decision and it's expected she'll do so within a month. Affected farmers will learn then if O Ps have been reprieved or banned. Only then can the battle for compensation begin. Adrian Pitches, B B C News. Scientists in France have found a new way to bring the past back to life. They're using computers and virtual reality technology to interpret historical records. And as our science correspondent David Whitehouse reports, it means we can now see what cities and building looked like hundreds of years ago. Today they're just ruins in a Paris suburb, it's hard to imagine what these roman baths looked like when they were new. But thanks to virtual reality, we can come as close as is possible. Using historical records computer scientists have reconstructed the building, fifteen hundred years after it was ruined. Inside these roman baths, the marriage of archaeology and computer science is complete. British scientists are exited by this new way of bringing ancient buildings back to life. I can stand in front of the screen, I can look at the simulations, I can stop them whenever I want to stop them and look at them, it gives me ideas about how the buildings might have looked at that time and it gives me a whole range of variations as to as to what can be done in terms of their reconstructions. Recreating ancient buildings involves a lot of painstaking work translating archaeological records into computer code. I B M U K are at the forefront of the new science of virtual archaeology. First you make a fairly detailed ground plan, and then you essentially turn that ground plan into a three dimensional plan inside the computer. And that's quite a time consuming step. I believe in the case of these baths it took about one man year to do that transformation. But then once the computer's got that, you just have to say, pretend I'm standing here, and the computer's capable of saying, This is what you would see. But the most ambitious example of virtual reality, is Clanne Abbey, also in France. Built in the year nine O nine, for six hundred years it was the largest enclosed building in the world. Torn down during the French revolution, little remains. But scientists have reconstructed it showing what it would have looked like. using almost three thousand hours of work on a major computer, the result is a stunning walk through the abbey as it would have appeared in the eleventh century. Scientists are excited by this computer approach to archaeology and they've plans to reconstruct other great buildings of the past bringing them to life once again. David Whitehouse, B B C News. And the main news again, there've been renewed calls tonight for the police to be armed after a community policeman was murdered. P C Patrick Dunn was described as an honest gentle local bobby. Judge Tumim's report into the riot at Wymott prison in Lancashire says the jail was close to anarchy. John Prescot has won a key post in the new shadow cabinet, moving from transport to employment. The next national news is the Nine O'clock news, from Jenny and L E A T L E A T our local Environment Action Teams, initiative proved to be so outstanding. L E A T was designed to encourage employees and their families to undertake voluntary work to improve the environment. Employees were awarded sums of money between a hundred pounds and fifteen thousand pounds to tackle projects in partnership with national or local voluntary organisations. When the scheme was announced the need for individual as well as corporate action was underlined by Tony . In this area, and others we support, it's the individuals which make a company's role in the community so well received. Individual contact much more than organisation to organisation is a way barriers between the sectors are broken down, and a way we can understand each other 's motives and ideals. So these are just some of the ways we're working to empower the voluntary sector as I myself s as I said earlier, this is one of the key focus areas for the nineties. The other three focus areas, to complete my story, are education, the environment and information technology for people with disabilities. All of these areas enable us to create long term partnerships with the groups and organisations we're committed to help, and all of them enrich I B M's own long term aims. For instance by encouraging an active interest in the environment in which we live, and by supporting groups or promoting cleaner technology, less pollution and less waste, we're ensuring the quality of life for future generations, and also the potential for future business opportunities. And by offering management skills training courses to heads and deputy heads of schools, we're helping schools become more adept at self management. These initiatives also enable I B M to offer the voluntary sector as an alternative to cash, one of our most valuable assets, our people and their time. Groups who've got to know I B M over the er, years, will know that one further advantage of our concentration on specific areas for investment, is that we're able to measure degrees of success rather more easily. Surveys are a way of life with an I B M. as they are in many companies today. Annual surveys, opinion surveys, satisfaction surveys, meetings assessments, canteen questionnaires, we're obsessed with measurement. If you can't measure it, you can't manage it. I B M employees rarely go to a conference, attend a meeting or take part in a course without being asked whether it meant their expectations, whether it was too long, too short, too dull, or ju or just too much. The reason for this is simple. How do you know whether anything has been a success, or whether you're doing anything right, unless you ask, and we expect this rationale to follow through into our community investment programme. We like to see how a project is progressing, find out what use er, what groups makes of our support, discover how a training course helped their staff. I recognise that the voluntary sector is increasingly being asked to evaluate its work for its funders, and equally we want to know how we, in I B M, measure up to your expectations. If we're not doing it right, we need to know. This is one of the reasons we took part in a pilot evaluation scheme, funded by I B M Corporation. To measure the expectations of the various communities and see what impact we were having through our investment programme. The pilot was carried out at two of our locations, Greenock in Scotland, where we have a manufacturing and development site, and Bristol. In both locations about a third of employees were involved in some sort of voluntary activity. Employees local business people, opinion leaders and the general public were questioned. The survey found that everyone, expected I B M to be involved in corporate social responsibility programmes, but not everyone knew what our programmes were. They agreed with our four focus areas, and agreed that our strategy of offering our employees and their skills, rather than just money was the right one. And these views were very encouraging and will help us plan our programme into the nineties. We're also taking part in the Rountree Foundation Survey which will ask voluntary sector groups about their experiences with I B M. So we will be able to find out what you really think about us. Now my remarks so far have concentrated on the relationships between our three sectors. There's one other point that's important to make about the contribution that companies can make about having their own house in order, and it rather echoes some of the questions which are coming up in a, in a question session. For instance, I think it's, I think it's rather pointless to be preaching er values outside an organisation, if ones not following those values within the organisation. For instance, by employing people from minority ethnic groups, by employing disabled people, by following equal opportunity of principles, by providing adequate child-care facilities, the impact on the community, of course , can be, can be quite profound. Employers with pay policy enables mothers to return to work and pay for quality child-care, can be of great benefit in an area where there's a high proportion of single parent families or families where the mother is the major the breadwinner At a company offers equal opportunity regardless of race, colour or sex, heightens the feeling of self-esteem and potential of individuals within minority groups and this self- esteem can be catching. By enriching the lives of its employees, a business can have a dramatic follow-on effect within the community. It was certainly a source of great pride to me in the nineteen sixties to be Personnel Manager of the Greenock plant, in an area which is noted to it's erm, insecurity, to see the effects on the living standards and conditions and morale of the general community of having a manufacturing plant which had stability of labour, as well as it's er, objectives. I consider that I B M strives to be a good employer and that it's long established belief in respect for the individual has shaped our personal policies to reflect these needs within our community, and for example, our equal opportunity principles prevent us from considering race, colour or sex, when offering someone employment or promotion. Our support for businesses in the communities, Opportunity Two Thousand, and the setting of targets, which are public targets, confirms our commitment to encourage high level job opportunities for women. So having looked at the relationship between business and the voluntary sector today, let's take a brief look at the future. At the time when the income of many of the top charities is said to be either static, or to have fallen, it's essential for public in the private sector, do not forsake their supporting role. I read only last week, for instance, that the N S P C C is suffering severely from the recession and higher running costs, and I'm sure they're not alone. The perceived decrease in the public's generosity means that it is even more important for businesses, and I mean all business, not just the larger ones that have traditionally provided the pool of resource, to realise that their businesses would only succeed within a healthy society, and a healthy society means the support of business men and business women. It's not good just to occasionally buy a flag, or to sponsor some friends mor marathon, one needs more than good intentions. It was heartening in fact to hear that W H Smith is to celebrate is bi-centenary next year, by providing the Samaritans with a special telephone link line. Calls will be linked automatically to the first available Samaritan volunteer, whatever part of the country they happen to be in. That reminds me that it was Margaret Thatcher who said, Nobody would remember the Good Samaritan, if all he had was good intentions. He had money as well. Likewise both business and government must have more than good intentions in order to turn the well meaning idealism into practical support, funding and long term dialogue, and the publication of a Charities Bill,in trying to increase public confidence in the sector, is a step in the right direction. Well, when I was asked to speak to you today, I decided to look at the Oxford Dictionary's definition of Community, which is joint ownership or liability. This is, I think, what we should all be aiming for in the future. The public sector, the private sector and the voluntary sector, all have joint ownership of the future health of the community. Joint ownership of the future prosperity of the community and joint ownership of the future skills of the community. Ladies and gentlemen, it was a privilege to speak to you today. I hope I've demonstrated that corporate support, individual support, government support, must go hand in hand. It's not a question of what a company can do for a day centre, or what an environmental group can do for a business, it's a question what we can all do together, for the community. Thank you very much. Thank you very much, Sir Leonard for that, in th in the beginning of your address you posed the question, what does a company like I B M have to do with a community and then proceeded to answer your question, I think in a most, er, comprehensive way, and I I speak as someone who lives in a county, Hampshire, where I B M has a strong er, base, and I know from personal experience as a volunteer in that county, how much we value the contacts that we have with I B M and the way in which we work together with them in the way that you have described. Erm, I understand that you are willing to answer questions from the floor for a few minutes. Well, I'm delighted to, I feel a bit like the er, that story about the professor and the chauffeur, though, which I must tell. Which is of course, the er, the professor and the chauffeur are, erm, on their way to the professor's engagement. Like most professor's, he only gives one lecture. He gives it very well, and he's on on his way to an evening engagement, and the professor, says I'm feeling very tired tonight, and I don't think I want to give er,th the talk, but I don't know, I I obviously I have to go, the chauffeur said, no problem, he said, all we need is to change hats, I've heard you give that same talk so many times, I would actually give it. And so er, they changed hats, when they get there, and the chauffeur's introduced a as the professor, goes on the platform, and of course the professor sits at the back of the room with the chauffeur's hat. Erm, what happens of course, is th that the lecture is brilliantly delivered, er, but, but, what happens is he, the chauffeur finishes two minutes early and the chairman, being excellent as a Chairperson, actually says, we have time for just one question, and er, someone stands up and asks the most dreadful question from the audience, and er, the chauffeur listens to the question, thinks, and th then says, that's questions very easy, very easy indeed, that question is so easy, I'm going to ask my chauffeur who is sitting at the back of the room to answer it. Now sitting at the back of the room is Sandra, who does much of the work. Where are you Sandra, have you got your chauffeur's hat on. Over to you. I think Sir Leonard, that was a very well rehearsed ploy. It was. To occupy two minutes. But, but, certainly a at the back, please. I want to give you some positive feedback, you asked for it, from the National Alliance of Women's Organisations, er, which represents two hundred and six organisations, in, all in all about five million women. You don't yet give us money, although I hope may, one day you will be persuaded to do so, but you have given us time, and particularly in the person of your colleague Sandra who is here, and her time to us has been enormously valuable and I want to thank you for that. I also, er, we are also putting in for your community computing scheme, erm, realising that it will not only, if we get it, increase our own expertise and make us more efficient, which heaven knows, all organisations need to be, but will also be ab enable us to give advice to all the organisations we represent, and thus have an enormous ripple effect. So I want to give you that positive feed-back. Please do not take it as an example that you may all leap to your feed to make your bids. No,San Sandra, make a note of that er, that bid will you. We have to look upon it with interest. Good, there, you see. Erm sorry. Gentleman energy council, I'm not make a bid, we've just, er we've just heard, what I think is a, is an example of enlightened and model practice, so praise is on the superfluous, but I think we're probably not typical of of the business sector in being so enlightened, and my question is only a wide one, and it is this. What sort of, erm, pressure or involvement or leadership ought to be given, or wh , yeah, what pressure ought to be put on the business sector, in order that it should sort of, conform conform is not a very good word, in order, it's ability to to contribute to the voluntary sector, and engage with it, should not be based upon individual and enlightened examples, such as I B M's, but should pull upwards the rest of the business sector, in other words, should N C V O actually says to the business sector as a whole, look, we think globally this is what you ought to be doing. It would be impertinent to say that to N C V er, to I B M, but it might be appropriate to say it to some of the less enlightened firms, or, should John be taking a similar line, in other words, how interventionist would you like either government or N C V O speaking on behalf of the vol voluntary sector to be, in pressing the business sector to have an overall and agreed strategy rather than the individual and enlightened strategy you put forward. Thank you. Well, thank you for the kind remarks. I think they're perhaps, if anything too generous because er, I will remind you as I said of the, at least three hundred companies who are doing pretty effective work in this area. They tend to be the larger companies, I have to be fair, er, but er, one of the encouraging things from my point of view, and I, we started rather early, maybe fifteen, twenty years ago has been to see the growth of this particular sector, where people have moved progressively into, I think a much more enlightened posture in the last ten or fifteen years, and B I C, Business in the Community of course, have to take, I think much credit for that. The leadership of B I C, involvement of the Prince of Wales, and indeed the involvement of the senior executives in their councils, I think has been very helpful. So er, kind words to us, thank you very much, but there are bodies which are working very effectively to spread the net, er, my view, by the way, is of course erm, I'm a great believer in, er pressures being exercised by every mechanism. If you want er, the pressures have to be carefully thought out, er, and I think you have to be able to demonstrate that it is, it is self interest, and I think one continues to actually use these words. Not pure altruism, it is self interest, which, in fact, is your lever. And you have to use, and I'm sure you do it already, you use the networks which are available to you, you have contacts, you have employees of companies working for you. You can exercise upwards pressure, er, no no organisation can stand alone. I think the government, and John by the way has been superb to us, in terms of being willing to come along, and help us do the work we're doing, and I'm, I believe the government has a great interest in this field. Erm, in the same way, your own organisations must produce, I think, good quality pressure mechanisms, including ve very clear objectives, what you're trying to achieve, and how you're trying to achieve it, and the sort of resource you need, the sort of resource you need. You may well find it easier to obtain people again, particularly with a new climate on employed volunteering, there's no doubt about that, that there is a new attitude where companies are willing to encourage employees to spend their time and to help o to help them give minimum resources, to organise them. So it's not, it's not a question of any one government, or the voluntary organisations or the companies putting pressure, it's a question of all of them working out mechanisms by which they can persuade more and more people to join this particular movement. Erm, could I just follow that on, Sir Leonard, you said earlier, there should be more fora, to bring people together. That's right. W would you like to just, adding that on to what you've already said, how you think this might be initiated. Well, erm, I I give a very small example of that, er, we're very privileged er, in having four distinguished leaders of the voluntary sector, who meet with us every four months, and they, er, we only meet for two two and a half hours, and we talk through what we think we're trying to do, as a company. They give us their advice on what they know about the voluntary sector, and they give us guidance and help, in fact, the meeting took place er, only two days ago, and absolutely invaluable to be able to sit and listen to people who've spent their life in the voluntary sector working with some of the difficulties we don't appreciate. So, that's for in a very small way, which is individual companies building up their own relationships, getting together people from the voluntary sector, nationally or locally, and talking through the nature of the problems, and how they can help. Th there, there's a minu a minute example, erm, in fact it's probably more effective in some ways, than the great fora, forum, in which you have larger assemblies of people who enjoy th the hours, during the course of the day, but often don't go away and do anything. I mean, I'm a bit cynical about great conferences, they're important if you're trying to set a tone, and they're important if you want the press and the media involved, but actually it's a smaller fora on the local basis, which actually produces much better results, in my opinion, but that's the sort of thing I have in mind. Yes, thank you very much, erm, question at the back, please. Thank you, Jill Carers sorry, Carers National Association. I'd like to ask you very specifically about your policy, I B M's policy on carers in the workforce. It's estimated that one in seven of the part-time workforce has some kind of caring responsibilities, and many of them are attempting to maintain a full-time or at least a part-time job, while carrying those responsibilities. Thus far there's very little evidence that employers are taking this on board. Though one of the best thing we can do for carers is enable t them to keep on with part-time work as long as possible. What is I B M's policy on that? Well, erm, the answer there is that, I think we've done a lot of things for carers who are concerned with children. We have done very little fo for carers who are concerned with aged parents. And I think that, really is the essence of of your question. Er, what we have done, of course, is change our whole attitude er over ten or fifteen years, to part-time employment. Had you asked me that question ten or fifteen years ago, I'd be mildly embarrassed, because I would have said that we took a very rigid attitude, where we insisted that people work full-time. Er, I can assure you that we have ser , we have several hundred people now, who are working on a part-time basis, because they choose to work part-time, whatever their commitments may be. So I think we've taken a more enlightened attitude in that sense. In terms of erm, return to work, er, we also er have been very good, I think, in the sense that we now offer the twenty-five per cent bonus er, after pregnancy, don't get me wrong on that, er, what happens is, people are actually recompensed, given back the money which they've sacrificed because they've been away from work for six months, and they get is back over the next two years. So we give them a twenty five per cent mark-up, and we reckon that this helps with the whole business of child-care, since we're not ungenerous in the salaries we pay,fo for the start, adding, by adding twenty five per cent of that, we're helping. The other thing of course, is leave of absence,an and part-time work. We would actually guarantee that, jobs for numbers of years, so the people can actually take time off and then return, er, we also have arrangements to keep people in touch the business so, I'm very proud of that record. I then become rather more hesitant, when I have to face up to the problems particularly of er, women looking after elderly parents, because the burden does seem to fall, as you would know, on the women. And er, although I think we encourage managers to be generous in terms of again part-time working and time off, I think our corporation, and now I go to the United States, has probably taken a more enlightened attitude than we have so far. What we have done recently, as a point of interest to you, and I'd be interested in, perhaps informal feedback, rather than direct feedback. We have been running an experiment in our laboratories, which erm, employs about eighteen hundred people, and I've been paying a sum of money, so that they can have anybody with a problem in the laboratories, can have independent counselling, er, and it seems to me, I've been lo reviewing it, measurement again, we've just been running it for a year, and I've been interested to see the types of problem they've been taking outside. W w we can't identify the people, of course, the the thing is anonymous. But th , we go get a er, report from the counselling agency on the type of, of er, question that's been posed, and I would expect that that agency would be providing help and guidance, er, along the lines of suggesting and working with the individual on problems of the type, which I'm sure you have at the front of your mind. But at the moment, I cannot speak with the same feeling of achievement about caring for er, elderly, the elderly relative, whereas I think I can say with conviction we've done quite a lot for those with small children. Thank you very much. Another at the back Leslie. I wonder whether I may ask a question relating to your personal experience rather than I B M per se. We work in the Health arena, you yourself have had considerable experience, and you referred to the changing roles between public and private agencies, and you mentioned trusts and so on in the health arena, I just wondered whether you'd like to explore with us a little, your own personal thinking about the nature of these changing roles, and perhaps a little bit of crystal ball gazing ahead, as to how you personally, we won't hold it against you, but how you personally might like to see that going. Yes, well I was, I was erm, I must put myself in historical context. Erm, I was with the N H S between nineteen eighty-five and January the thirty-first, nineteen eighty-nine. Indeed, had you seen Ken white paper statement on television that night, you would see me sitting in the audience, smiling gently at the thought that I was about to leave the N H S. My job essentially was to introduce general management, and therefore I er, I was able to use many of the skills which I had acquired in I B M, but of course, I was also part of the Griffiths debate, here I'm talking about Griffiths Two, not Griffiths One, I was implementing Griffiths One, which was general management, Griffiths Two was a community, the community debate, so I saw something, which I'm certainly not allowed to quote, of the great debates that went on over the period of eighteen months before the eventual decision was made about community care. So it it's quite clear that the government and er, industry, the community, will put enormous burden, inevitably on the voluntary worker in the health sector. Er, I see no answer to that, other than the fact that they will be a continuing relationship with the voluntary sector, er, and the problem is, how to organise it. Er, that's one of the, one of the debates about the fora, the forum. Er, I'm a little bit out of touch, so,i if I sound hesitant it's because I simply don't know how much debate has been taking place, and how, systematised the relationships are going to be in the future. I mean, quite clearly there is an entirely new relationship developing between government and the voluntary sector, it seems to me, which is a contractual relationship in a sense. Now I don't know how that will develop. I do need, er, I do know that that the conflict between government, local government, the voluntary sector and all others who have an interest, can be quite prodigious, and the ways to resource can be also, quite considerable, and the whole thing does need to be debated and sorted out. Some people might argue at a local level rather than a central level, you're much more likely to get effectiveness at a local level, than of by central dictate. On the other hand, you do need guidelines to work to. I'm afraid that's very general. Er, you may be glad to know, or unhappy to know, that I'm actually still on contact with the health service because I'm a non-executive director of the Royal London Trust, which works of course, in Whitechapel, one of the poorer areas of London, and it's not quite so glamorous as Guys, but actually it's doing quite a good job. Thank you very much. Very last question, because time is running, please. Erm, I'd just like to ask Sir Leonard whether the nature of the issues that are dealt with by environmental organisations, erm, indeed arguments such as pays etc. erm, introduces a difference in the nature of the relationship between the private sector and environmental N G Os, particularly when the issues that we promote, such as su the sustainable use of the world resources and the reduction of environmental degradation can have a direct impact on a companies bottom line. Well, you see, it's easier for me to sit here, and to pontificate, and therefore your questions were well put, erm, we can demonstrate, I think a much more effective approach to the environment in in our field, because er, we're dealing with chemicals which we have some control over, and which exists to some small degree in air, air machines. C F Cs, for example, er, we have just one a major prize, I'm pleased to tell you, for eliminating C F Cs at our Greenock plant. So it's easy for me to sit here and say, we think we're doing a good job on the environment, because we're not threatened, we do have to find ways round existing chemicals, we may have to pay, pay a higher price, but we're not threatened in terms of the the core of our bottom line. I think companies certainly are interested in creating the right impression, in in fact in creating the right er, environment, and they are willing, of course, to pay a a price, but the argument er, which you put is if you threaten the companies existence, right. Don't you actually set up attention, and the answer of course, you do. Er, what companies can do, or should seek to do, is of course, see if they can manage round those tensions as well , but it takes a very long time to do that. So, I have to say, that er, I believe that companies which erm, find it easy to change, are of course, changing. Companies which find it more difficult because it's the centre of their existence, erm, are clearly looking at the situation, but will actually take a very long time to move to the position which you, in your particular group would like them to occupy, and I understand that, changing in I C I is rather different from changing at I B M, and er, therefore it takes longer, but I do see a a consciousness, it's the same conscious, you're impatient for change, quite rightly, companies of course, have to keep their employees in an earning capacity, at the same time, er, move towards the position which you would like to them to do, and it may take a long time, but I accept your point, which is with some companies, then in fact, your clearly going to get attention of some kind. Thank you very much, Sir Leonard. Sadly we must bring this, er session to an end. I do not think, Sir Leonard, that you will need to distribute your I B M questionnaires to calculate the satisfaction level of this session this morning, I think the c rapt attention, the erm, interest and the cl clarity with which you have answered our questions, the ideas I think, which we shall take from your address, some, I might say, to ad to try out on other companies, perhaps, whose record is not as good, I think all of this is of the most enormous value, and as I said at the beginning, I feel very pleased myself, that I live in in a part of the country where we have an I B M presence, and and er, we we value that relationship. So thank you very much indeed, for coming, for addressing us, and we look forward I think both at national level and as you suggest, at local level with ever more valuable and productive relationships with the private sector, together with the other partners which, er, whom we need, and thank you for leading us along this Thank you, thank you for the opportunity. I I must just now, say one or two very brief things before you disa Before you do. Oh, oh, oh. have the floor,realise, I've got a very nice part to undertake. Oh dear. Would you like to stand up, Oh dear. 'Cos I've been told, I've got to get you ready for the photographer. Oh. You don't know anything about this, but Kay has been involved with N C V O for more than ten years, she joined the Executive Committee in nineteen eighty-one, I'm reliably informed, just before I got involved. I forget. and then you were inveigled to the R and D and then you inveigled to become a Vice Chair, and today you've been handling the ceremony so well, we've had to keep you in cotton wool to make sure that er, that you kept your health. And we're very grateful, you've brought rural interest, you've brought much wider interest, and you've brought a great deal of warmth and compassion and interest and time, what more could we say, but to show a token of our appreciation and give you a few flowers to go with that. Oh. Thank you so much. Oh. I find this most embarrassing. Thank you very much, I can only say that I have always felt it a privilege to be part of N C V O. Er, I have enjoyed my time enormously and if I've had any role that I feel that I'm proud of, it's constantly bringing members to mind. I'm now, I'm not retiring, I'm just going back to being part of a member from my Hampshire Council of Community Service, and I shall be writing, of course, very rude letter, if the services and the communications of letters don't come up to standards. But thank you all, and I wish you you the members and N C V O itself, every good fortune, and I think we've had such a good day today, and I think Sir Leonard has shown us a really very clear way forward, and I know that the relationships which already exist, and those which will be developed can only be Thank you all very much for your support and help through those years. Ar, now I forgot what I was going to say, so I'll have to go back and look at my piece of paper now. Erm, two o'clock absolutely promptly, please, at your seminar rooms. The lists are outside and the the venues, and please take the opportunity during the lunch-break to make contact with your, to make contact with your Chair of Electoral Colleges, your Chairs, er, especially those perhaps, who are new members, the Chairs on their name-tag have a red star, and I think you will all know from the resolution this morning, who are the new Chairs, if they, if they have changed. So please make those contacts, so that you can erm, make arrangements to discuss, obviously things of mutual concern, promptly please, to your seminars, when we will continue some of the discussions we've been having this morning, and thank you all very much indeed. I haven't managed to escape there, I'm glad just to get on the pitch. Now erm, I haven't been to a match lately, but these pictures I've seen, there's still all these fences around to stop people doing that. Erm, what is the situation in our own stadiums? Well we don't have fences,but erm, we are the regulatory authority but the County Council are the regulatory authority for the sports venues. The Fire Service have the delegated authority for them and the situation in our local sports events is quite adequate. There's work that needs to be done, in most of the major sports grounds, but that's proceeding and there's, if you can imagine that there's, in Shrewsbury for example, a lot of the work which we would want to be done on the grounds have been less than enthusiastic about doing, because they're likely not to be there for very long. But, and I have no concerns about sports ground sale, we've regulated the numbers because they had some concerns about the and that, that itself has caused 's fellow supporters some problems, but we've actually restricted the number of people who can use the sports ground. Right, so they're game heavy you think? I wonder if it's free to them Only people that the gate can know the christian names of are allowed in. I have here a comments that there wasn't any point in really restricting the numbers. I think they'd have three now as well as David. Councillor ? I'll, I was just going to say, Chairman, I, I too am very concerned really about the number of premises where it is advisory to the District Councils, or advisory to . Bearing in mind the number of private nursing homes that spring up and erm, er, I mean the sort of privately run places er, presumably the local authorities have to give them a licence to run, but is there no way that it, can the Fire Service, can our officers go and make an inspection? Clearly they have no power to do so, even if somebody asks them to, somebody from outside for instance, erm, and, and also when they do get a fire certificate, is there a display for it? Or stuck in the back of an office, or, or could they have something sort of glossy like the half kingdom Tourist Board stars, that they can put on their windows,to let people know that at least that particular nursing home or whatever establishment it is, has been duly inspected by our Fire Services? I mean, otherwise one assumes simply that people don't know. Mm, well th the answer to the first question is that, no we don't have any authority to enter premises like that, where we haven't been invited unless somebody has identified a potentially dangerous condition. Section ten of the Fire Precautions Act gives me the power to inspect any premises where we believe there is a threat to life, other than domestic premises. And there are certain circumstances in which we can do that. It also gives me the power to prohibit or restrict the use of those premises until those conditions are alleviated. In that document, there is a very strong reference to the fact that that power should be either restrictive or removed and that there should be a right of appeal against it, which would effectively prevent us from using it. In terms of nursing homes, we don't issue fire certificates anyway, we only issue certificates to offices, shops, building premises because they were under the Act, Hotels and Factories. So a nursing home, hospital and school, residential or otherwise, is never certificated, and any advice that we give is exactly that. It's not mandatory. That surely is is, is of quite concern to people in some way registering whether a place is considered safe or not. It's through Social Services or the Area Health Authority. That is there responsibility? To keep the place from the Fire Authority as from others. Yes, mm Yes, but they've got to have a, you, you've got to have a, you've got Leaving, leaving, leaving aside their er,ob sorry Chairman. Yes, I'll come back to you, sorry. just mention what I've heard, the only statutory job he could do, is apply his licence in . Is the Fire Officer given every individual case where they apply for a licence over an old people's home, and er, this sort of thing? Oh yes. And can't you keep it, keep the Fire Officer when the home's licence er, if they don't carry out statutory duties as required? We, we, we, I suppose it'd be like two levels, that in the majority of cases we could say we recommend that you do not issue a licence. Social Services are really a help, we could choose to ignore that, I have to say that I'm not aware of that happening, and I think it's very unlikely. Because it would be a very dangerous thing for someone to do. The other element is that the county's are so dangerous, and that's actually quite unusual, they're so dangerous that we consider they present a risk and it has to be me that considers it presents a risk to life, and I can either restrict the use of premises, but I can prohibit the use entirely. But as I say, this says that,an that's a relatively new and certainly draconian power, and it's recommended in this document that it's removed. Please Yes Colonel Is this, all these wonderful protection of animals, dogs and horses and so on, and pet shops and so on , do, does the Chief Fire Officer think in his local knowledge, that most of these have been inspected by his officers, or does he get the feeling there, that sometimes the district councils are not asking for these inspections? It varies a great deal depending on the district council. What I have to say really, is that most of those premises present very little risk at all, and, and I think that any change in the implementation of fire safety legislation should be based in prioritization. Now that's something that's difficult for us to do, because the more dangerous, the more erm, the premises should present the greatest life risk, are not necessarily the ones over which we have strict legislative control. I mean for example hospitals and nursing homes, we have a purely tenuous control over, whereas we have a very rigid control over a signal box on a railway. Now a signal box on a railway presents a fairly limited risk to life and a nursing home presents a fairly dramatic risk. Yes Jim, or Chairman, if, if someone doesn't come under the regulations and is operating a business or something of that sort,is there the facility for that body, either the management body or the business to ask voluntarily for you to inspect, with a view to issue a, er, erm, a certificate er, erm of er, safety? There's no If anybody wants a fire certificate and we had a recent case where a notable local solicitor asked us to issue a fire certificate and we refused, because his premises does not require one, or did not at that point require a fire certificate. Then he subsequently moved one person from the ground floor onto the first floor, which meant that he did require a fire certificate. But if it's not required by law, then I cannot issue, and if people ask for advice we are obliged under Fire Services, the Fire Services Act to give that advice, but what I'm really saying is that with the, the pressure of work on the Fire Safety Department, it's likely that if it's a fairly low risk to life, we'll never get round to it, and that's the honest truth. That's on your statutory requirement? Yes So what you're saying is, that if people er, if people's consciences state I ought to try and do this, but I'm not required by statute to do, the chances is that A, that you, you can't do it anyway, but B you wouldn't have the facilities to do it anyway, as well. We, we, we will normally get round to people. We do inspect . But we probably don't inspect and give advice to people who'd like us to, because they're not a priority, and we don't have the resources to do that. A lot of interesting points come out there, haven't they? Cap If, if, if I could summarize, if you could bear with me by saying that, there is no embracing legislation which covers fire safety, and there is no legislation which actually prioritizes it. What we have is picking up a ragbag of stable door legislation, that came out of other Acts, and that's why we have offices, shops and railway premises from the Oswald Acts which were neatly tucked in the back of Oswald's Act. Hotels which were in the first days of making order, and factories which came from the old Factories Act. And the cost, or the potential cost of designating particular, like hospitals and similar premises is so prohibitive that the government has chosen never to implement the designating orders for them. And I hasten to say it, governments of all persuasions assume it must be being done. Someone move the recommendation? I will Yes Five point seven, paper J, Fire and Rescue Service Training. Different board is the outcome of the P A G inspection? Yes, it seems it I don't know, Mr Chairman, I think you've always been very keen on this trend and supported it fully. And, I, I will support this number seven, seven with recommendations. Thank you there We are moving on reasonably well on this issue. Yes, well we've got to Reasonably well, yes, reasonably well Then I hesitate to say that there's probably a more complex issue now even than the Fire Station, erm,the figures which are given incidentally are the original estimate there, because that was what was available to us at the time. They have now been varied slightly but they make very little difference. A question that's already been asked of me, on appendix C, up at employee at the largest single figure there is a hundred and thirty seven thousand eight hundred. That's not a way of fudging some other cost, the retained fire fighters are recompensed when we provide training for them, because they normally have to lose work or whatever. They are very, very expensive to train because of that. We train whole-time fire fighters cheaply, but we pay the retained people compensation for loss of earnings. That figure is the majority, the majority of that figure is compensation for loss of earnings. That's the trouble, you get cheap service from retained personnel, but they're incredibly expensive to train. But absolutely essential. That's the only time you pay loss of earnings? Yes If they've taken off for a fire two days or something? They're going to get paid then. We pay them for attending fires. The only other time they're paid compensation for loss of earnings, is when they're sick as a result of an injury received on duty, you know Fire Brigade duty. Well this recommendation's been moved, seconded? Yes Five point eight, Emergency Planning Are you going to speak on it or not? The recommendation's here. Chair, here. We move There is one thing, and I think I did take it with you, erm, Mr Chairman, I'm with the erm, I've forgotten what the question on, corporational liberties, the thing that is concentrating many of our minds quite some , but the er, would, would the Chief Fire Officer like to? Yes, well he s he did take it up with me as a, er, I mean you did take it up I didn't complain, I didn't complain, I suggested it. No, but what, what I'm, what I mean, what I said such as emergency services. Now the emergency services are police, fire, and erm, and ambulance. There's a fourth one actually, but everyone knows who they are So those do cover the police. I mean, if the police and the ambulance service. Could, could that just be underlined perhaps in, by rephrasing it slightly to emphasise that, because I, I think that I think we all know what emergency services are We, we know but You don't, I see we, we do, but there's no harm, in view of our knowledge and experiences just to put that phraseology in a little bit bolder. I, I, I, I think Mr Chairman what I, I think I explained to you what my concern was, that we have cases where there's a serious road accident, and erm, and the road is stopped, we have no real authority to turn traffic or divert traffic, but the, the police are the only ones that can, and if we want to get down in, in, into an emergency very quickly. I, I mean it's only by the good will of the police that we can get down there and that,, this is, this is my concern Mr Chairman, in, in theory what I would like, if there was a serious emergency, you'd get a senior officer in here straight away, and I mean he would negate to the police, we have no authority over them, only cooperate with the police. And that's my concern. Well I, I I, I, I mean they're, you, you, I mean they're very good, but they do, er a lot are imperfect, a law unto. Oh, oh, I think all it wants is that paragraph rephrasing and with more strongly emphasis but, on the lines on with that. That's all I think Chairman, I don't suppose that er, you'll disagree with that will you? Well I, I wouldn't disagree with it, but I, but I, the description is perfectly plain to ensure that effective arrangements are established from liaison between the various departments of the County Council and the appropriate organizations such as the emergency services . I know what the emergency service is, I'm sure everybody else does. There's a fourth one that keeps cropping up on television but I mean we don't take that into consideration. But it's just police, fire and ambulance services, those are the emergency services, I can't see what, what the objection is to me making the paragraph stronger. No and I can't see wh no well I, we made it, I'm not against making it stronger, but I can't understand why this suggestion has been made. Well because of past experiences, Chairman, that's all. Let's make it strong I'm not criticising anybody, just make it stronger. Chairman, I, I, I'm really confused now, I mean they've, they've got me, they've got me talking about semantics here which is ridiculous. What we're talking about is the emergency services that sh that responds to the needs of those who are in difficulty or in distress. That's what we're doing and I can't see anything here that prevents er, total cooperation between A the police, B the ambulance service and C the fire services. I agree with you entirely. I think this is er, semantics, and simple nitpicking. The police have never, I mean the Fire Officer will tell me, has there ever been an occasion when the police have not cooperated with the Fire Service in an emergency situation? No No, no there's always room for improvement in liaison Come on we're talking about the job, the job description, really they're there to please, er, er, this is written by one, one man and er, or one woman, and we're just saying that the wording could be improved in that one little phraseology, that's all. On the job description. It was put together by, it was put together by the Chief Fire Officer and the Chief Executive er, not just the Chief Fire Officer. Right. I'm saying it could be improved, I'm sorry. Yes Colonel. Er, most officers would have accepted it and moved on to the next subject. Paragraph two was current solution to see the sort the place where the advertisers as widely as possible, presumably based on the job description . Here, there's no salaries attached to it at the moment. Erm, do we know how big the department's going to be, because that governs the salary? Where are we in relation to the sort of catch twenty two situation on this? The, the salary is stated I, I'd rather finish with the other question, or, or the made by the Major in the press question, are you, do you want to follow up the, I mean, have a vote on this if you want to? No Or is, or do you think the wording is suitable, or do you not? The wording's suitable. Yes I, I, I'm dead easy, I mean really it's a bit pedantic being pathetic. Leave it as it is, leave it as it is Leave as it is, and move on. Right now,c yes sorry, well we'll go back now. The, the post is currently graded at P O five, not P O six. After the exclusion of the public. Can we discuss after the exclusion of the public. Thank you sir. Yes Clearly er, it's er, again in, in paragraph four, under future budget of er, the services is going to be critical, if you've seen the last couple of years that are defined in the pay, and that's going to continue. As far as the short-term is concerned, er, part of the budget package in the current year, er, the retirement and the, the now proposal was to, to help up the side as regards that. Now it's referred in item one of the introductory paragraph, in the introduction about additional funding, and I just wonder where is the total for this additional funding? Is it from within the Public Protection Committee's overall budget, or is from elsewhere? If so, no. Well if we're going to start to go into funding, I'd rather this went into the pink paper session, and that we have our Chief Executives down here to explain that situation. I don't want to discuss this in open committee. Agreed? Yes. We'll put it as the last item. You have the situation Personnel, five, point one, sorry, five point one three is that right, so Er, five point nine I think Chair. Five point nine, optimistic, I'm getting terrible these days. Just a little bit optimistic,straight through to that, Yes, avoiding, oh yes, yes, yes, sorry, sorry. Avoiding, now What Future for Local Emergency Planning, National Conference. Now, I'm, I might have been remiss on this, but we had to do this in a hurry, erm, to get names in, and, but it's been suggested by erm, the leader of the er, Conservative group on, on this Committee, that erm, a, a, member from each should, major group should go, and er, I'm quite, I'm quite inordinate, in favour of this, if we can get erm, bookings there now. I'm, you know My feeling is Mr Chairman, it is an unpolitical er, erm, we're going Oh yes, yes into a new ground and, and er, I think it would be very useful if, if we yes, yes, I'm quite happy, providing we can get the erm Erm, I think I, yes Chairman, if, if, if you're prepared to attend that if you're saying that Providing that they're not all taken . No well that's, that's impractical and all, but You know it's, yes, yes. I don't know where it is. Okay are you all agreed? Yes, agreed. Are you going? Who's on transport? I don't believe this gentleman. We'll check, we'll find out before the end of the meeting. Thank you for our er, I've got a better one than those Five point one oh, annual inspection, am I right now? Yes, ten We know that Mr Chairman. Five point ten, yes. Erm, you're all aware of that? Five point eleven, Fire Safety Week, well that's gone past. It's quite useful We played on a different part Five point one, twelve, Brigade Festival at Cowes, an absolutely superb evening in my opinion, but somebody said it was bloody awful. Er, Well I think it was a marvellous evening. I think it was I can think of one c comment Chairman. The, they ran out of er, of carol sheets. We didn't expect c It,i I had the initiative in getting a prayer book, er, er, a hymn book from the back which er, after some concentration with the index or something, to er If you would pardon me on the sheet , it's a shame Mr 's not here, because that was his decision, because of the imposed cut in stationery from last year, we ran out of it Come on, come on Good for him. So he was sulking in a corner was he? Yes. Another criticism that I had was that it was far, far too elaborate and expensive programme, I thought it was a very cheap one. We printed it ourselves, Yes, yes The first one, was Yes, yes, Councillor . In spite of a lack of er, sort of er, carol sheets for, for some of us, it really was, as you say, a very enjoyable evening, and I was particularly erm, keen on the, the introduction of Saint Nicolas, and it certainly got smaller children, I think it was er, fantastic, and I certainly haven't enjoyed so er, I'll be back We diddled them out of er, Christmas presents which, which surprised me. But some of the children there erm, somebody must have been very, very, optimistic because we put a lot, a lot of presents in there, but anyway I think it was a superb night, and, and, and the meeting of er, to get together in the fire station afterwards, quite, in the Price Room was very good. Okay. Five point one three, five thirteen, Fire Brigade Long Service and Public Medals Ceremony. Once again a very enjoyable evening, erm, I pushed into something that er, I don't think she really wanted to do initially, but she thoroughly enjoyed it at the end. Chairman, she did it er, erm, very nicely,from the local That's right, that's right. The ladies concerned I think were very pleased er, erm, I do I think it's a very good idea, erm, to give a wife's medal and er, with all the medals, and we ought to provide money for them the amount of waiting about they have to do A very good evening. and they never know when Yes. It was a nice, nice gesture. A well organized evening. And where the beer did agree eventually, I mean under slight pressure. There's a photograph of her,and I'm quite sure we can give Joan to give to Vera one of those. Yes, yes thank you. I, I would like to see erm, I don't know whether this is done, but erm, when the official photographs are taken, they're done by erm, newspaper area, so that you get of the Lord Lieutenant, the Chief Officer, and the, the man from that area, and that is sent to the local paper, whether, ah in fact the local paper actually took photographs on that basis, and they grouped them by Yes, but erm, but Chairman, er, I don't think I should come up and make myself clear, some local papers were not represented there. Could they in future be sent? Could the photograph, the fire, the fire fighter probably won't think of it, could, could we think it for him, or her. Yes, we're lucky with the photographer actually, he's not a fire fighter, er, He is now He is now, okay. Er, five fourteen, paper L. Don has erm, been seconded to the Home Office for a period of two years. So I think we ought to congratulate him on that. Yes Hear, hear. And the other is the retirement of er, Divisional Officer . Could we just Twenty nine year service is a long time. can I be as could we be associated with that? Oh yes, well I, this is a Committee I'm talking about, not, not just myself, the whole Committee. Erm, when I speak, I speak on behalf of the whole Committee. A letter will be written to both on that? Yes, oh yes, yes. Okay. Chair, in respect of what erm, it's obviously it's er, good for the Authority that Mr is er, obviously , but what will happen to his post, right away, and what, will there be someone employed to actually fill in, I know there will probably be some moving up er,? Yes, we're interviewing so we're interviewing on Friday for somebody to fill that post. On the dates that you've anticipated if Mr comes back by that time we'll be able to absorb the post, but it's likely that he may move on from this, because it's a fairly substantial move up. In his next, next work when he leaves here he's going to be the Fire Service at the Houses of Parliament, and I'm serious, that will be one of his first major jobs. Not to mention things as trivial as Windsor Castle, and so forth. You don't sail that far down Will they listen to him, I hope. You're next authority. Chairman, he won't have to, it's like this, he won't have to worry as they did when the televisions which caused the last fire in the House of Commons, I mean, set fire to them and er, caused that one. It's quite er, it's quite a recommendation to de Brigade though isn't it Mr Chairman? And quite an honour to the brigade. Pardon? It's very prestigious, it's very prestigious. Yes, and I think I thought of a personal note that, because we do get some good, good appointments. As bad as we are. Okay we'll move on. No, I, I, I think, it is well done. Six, Quarterly Report of Chief Trading Standards erm, paper marked M. Yes Do you want to s enlarge on it Mr ? No No, no No you're alright Chairman. Can we note this Mr Chairman? There's quite a lot of useful information in here. I hope you've all read it. Yes I have, item, paragraph one, Mr Chairman, is right to do with the work that has to be done. Pardon? Pardon? Item one on M, Mr Chairman, the right of you with the amount of work that has to be done, and the amount of they're asked for Oh yes, yes okay. in growing demand or Six point two, deregulation. Chairman, if I could just er, erm, some words that aren't included in this pa paper, I understand that the Deregulation Bill is published on the eighteenth erm, and presented to Parliament for the first reading, erm, it's still far from clear what's going to be said in it, but erm, it's still widely expected that in fact, on major contentious issues will in fact be the suggestion that sections of Acts of Parliament will, could be revealed by ministerial order rather than go through the parliamentary process again. So it's an important issue er, of principle. The aspect to it is, as I've made clear in, in the, the report I hope,th they'd want to treat each erm, one that comes out of government on it's me merits. Er, I make the point I think that, erm, we should oppose the er, Deregulation Bill if it's based on providing deregulation by Ministers, because I think that's a constitutional point that is of great import, but the, the rest of it erm, are really sets of principles that I hope you'd agree to, subject to amen amendment and dis discussion, because the information that we got is that the consultation period is going to be very tight indeed, and that it might not be able to go through the normal committee procedures in order to put things through erm, with er, proposals in that, er, in that respect. If they're relatively technical, then I, then I'd be grateful if they can be left to the officers, but obviously if there's anything that erm, is political in anyway, big P or small P, then at least we can get in touch with the er, P A G, and if necessary call a meeting in respect Chair. But things are going to move on apace, and we need to, a set of principles the officers can work to, and I've put these down as a broad list, erm, for your consideration. I propose that Mr Chairman. All in agreement, Yes to the recommendations. Yes Paper O, That's purely for information Chairman. Paper P, genetically modified foods. I think the case is here is that er could have serious effects. That, er, Chairman, if I could say the thing that bothers me here is that, it always has done about food, is that we should be keeping up to date with information, all these decisions and all this advice. That seems to me a basic requirement of er, of all the sale of food. Er, it's been coming in gradually over the years, but there's been an awful lot of, of er, resistance by some manufacturers on what they say on their labels, and what they say about what they're selling us, and er, if they're gonna do this, and I'm getting a, a slight suspicion, and I think Mr is, that, that it's got to be done eventually, and we, we have to be able, as a buying public, to understand exactly what we're buying before we actually get it home. A chance to read, and be informed as to what we're buying when we buy it. Chairman, it's always been this Committee's policy over the twenty years, the twenty odd years that I've been here, back here ru runner, that erm, so far as the food side is concerned, er, we should be, our policy should be based on the information, the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, and letting people make up their own minds. It's not been for us to tell people what they should or shouldn't eat or do anything with, because the, in, in one respect that's a nann nannying attitude from er, whether it's the legislators saying we're not going to approve the right legislation so that you have that information, but on the other hand by manufacturers and others saying you trust us. Well, in the cases we've taken over the odd twenty years against some of the biggest companies in the world indicate that that isn't the er, position. So, as far as the, the erm, erm,report is concerned er, if I've got to make a recommendation, because obviously people have got different views on this one, it would be in fact that we go for total er, information so that people can make up their own minds, and if, and it might be wrong, but they can exercise their own prejudices. And if they want to exercise those prejudices that's a matter for them. Erm, so that, that's the line that er, from a personal point of view I would erm, I would take, but I would obviously want members' views on that one. The other one, could I just correct something on the last line of er, comment at the bottom of the, bottom of page two. It says stock lives, it should be stock lines. But they are also trying to include the stock live aren't they, in some cases? Not their lives, No, it talks about the life as it's lying in store for instance. Yes, oh yes, yes indeed. Yes Anybody wish to speak or are you, do you accept the recommendations? A question if I may? In the er, appendix attached Yes er, there's talk about the er, government waiting for the recommendations from the Food Advisory Committee, when are they due? It's come out too, Chairman, that erm, there's been an, they dis they discussed that the minutes came out, and erm, what the Committee decided shortly was, the Committee felt strongly that, if the criteria for labelling were met, the requirement for labelling declaration should be a statutory one. They did not consider that this could be satisfactorily achieved by other means, such as non-statutory guid such as non-statutory guidelines. Er, based on the evidence which the public consultation produced the Committee considered that the primary concern of consumers was to be able to identify when a gene likely to be a cause of concern to a significant proportion of the population was present in foodstuff. This was reflected in the criteria which the Committee recommended should trigger a labelling declaration. As far as the form of labelling was concerned they believed that what was required was a simple declaration such as contains copies of X genes, in single ingredient foods and foods sold loose, they believe a declaration should form part of or accompanying the name under which food is offered for sale. For pre-packed foods which contain ingredients that contain copied genes, it recommended that a statement should be required to accompany the name of the ingredient in a list of ingredients. If a copied gene is present in an ingredient which was under current rules, it did not need to be listed, the declaration about its presence should nevertheless be made either in the ingredients list or next to the name of the er, food . And they went on then to consider lack of understanding of consumers about G M technology as a whole, and made recommendations for erm, er, better labelling, and for a erm, information campaign to be launched as well. But they didn't actually recommend that it should be statutory labelling Yes. The point I'd make, is that the difficulty of enforcement, in that respect. It's, it's one thing legislating, it's a completely different ball game when you are, erm, trying to enfor enforce it, and especially when you're trying to enforce it with ingredients imported from abroad. Well, when I say abroad, I mean from the E C as well. Erm, you can look after your own factories in this country, and you source ingredients, but you won't be able to do that for anything coming ov coming overseas. And the major manufacturers erm, there is a major trade in ingredients, between the multi-nationals as they pass things across. So the theory might not well work out in prac practice. But I honestly can't come up with any solution in that respect, because er, until you've got er multi-national enforcement agencies which no politician is going to agree to, erm, you're not going to solve the pro pro problem there. And if they think that it suits them to shift a factory to the Philippines because there won't be an inspection there, that's what they'll do. Can you note this Mr Chairman? That's depressing isn't it really? Very, but there you go. That's life, but we do what we can. And it's a statutory obligation in this country and that's really what you know. Because we can't just accept that, that manufacturers will look after it for us, because as you've, already said by the Chief, they'll move the factory where it I mean, you can even get a situation Chairman, where you'll get some of the big multiples will tell a, will agree specifications with a food manufacturer, but they're not going to be able to check on the ingredients, so even though the, the, the Sainsburys and the Marks and Spencers of this world say we don't want any er,gen genetically modified ingredients going into anything that we're going to buy, there's no way that they can guarantee that before we've even bought any. Having said that, do we accept the recommendations in this report? Yes Authorizations for legal proceeding. Proposed. Agreed. Registration of births deaths and marriages. It's for you Mr Nothing to add, er, if members have any questions I'll be happy to answer them. Noted? Charity Youth Committee, marked S. Do we have a member er, from that Committee? Yes Chairman, I am following in Major 's shoes, I don't reckon I know a great deal about it yet, and I'm not sure that this erm, er, advisory er, committee is yet actually on the go, but I will go into this. The stumbling block here does seem to be the inability of the Charity Commissioners themselves to keep up with the volume of work. Er, I am, Mr Chairman, I support that fully, because if you write to them it's six months before they'll reply. And you're wondering, I mean I don't think we can expect of the advice of charities now, or very little, you know, and, and they've got to be very, very careful I was meeting the Commissioners Pardon? I was leaving the Commissioners out as far as I could. Yes, yes, yes. It's a very meagre budget Chairman I should think we're getting off very lightly. Yes . Item nine, motion evenings and Saturday meetings. I propose that we retain the status quo Chairman. I'll second that I second that Are you all in favour of that? Yes West Mercia Police Authority, Paper C, now you received this late I'd be pleased to answer questions Chairman, and I'm sure Mr will help, help me deal with the budget crisis. And I shall endeavour to Well that's all you've got in front of you at the moment, isn't it, the budget Chairman? You have other things as well. Are there any questions? Pardon? Are there any questions, I'm asking, yes, I'm waiting for questions. Can I make an observation Mr Chairman, will you take observations as well? Yes, I'll take observat why, wait a minute. Yes, erm, on paragraph three erm, the, the last sentence erm, where it says without direct access to its own balances, the authority may therefore have to make revised precept in ninety four, ninety five erm, I understand what's being said there, but any organization needs to actually work within er, a clearly defined budget. Er, the Police Authority last year I think actually had to have an extra nine hundred thousand pounds of spending, the budget was funded by the constituent's authorities, erm, and we've already for next year in fact, made available effectively six hundred thousand pounds worth of extra spending by erm, various means, so I would hope that erm, the authority does use as, as much prudence and restraint in its financial affairs as possible, because of the, the effects on all, all concerned. Yes, Chairman, can I say that erm, when the b the budget's in the process of formulation and we're discussing the question of balances and reserves and how they should be marked for the immediate future, particularly in regard to the way that er, reorganization may take place at police authorities in the very near future, and also those of us who are on this, on, on other committees who've had experience in, and the same sort of thing happening in further education for instance, where immediately the assets, before even the regulations were put on the table, the assets of all these things were, all these er, erm,coll the further education colleges were frozen so we couldn't do anything with them at all as an Authority, and er, actually many of them were taken from us without er, without any question at all . So in the light of that it's per now is a good opportunity to er, make sure that those reserves and balances were available for A, the er, Police Authority should it require it, but B, to those constituent authorities who had helped in the er, build-up of these reserves. Now, what's being said here in that particular sentence, is that there are obviously going to be, or possibly could be occasions when er, the Police Authority has er, an overspend, which is an immediate problem for instance, on pensions, and you've heard the er, Fire Service Chief talking about his problems. They're just the same with the police force, there could be er, er, an increase in police pay,or there could be any, a very large incident which would require planning, if these happen then it has always been the case, if there wasn't the money available then a precept could be put upon us as a local authorities to er, cover that erm, directly. That's no different to what the situation is now, it was there before, the difference is that the banker is different. The banker is not the reserves of the Police Authority, because that has now been transferred to the authority. I should tell you that er, the budget really represents er, an increase in the availability of police resources over the previous years. I'm delighted with that, the budget came out er, much better than I'd hoped it would do, and er, and I, I am sure that we shall see some improvement in the police er, over the next year. Of course there is, there is the possibility, there is definitely going to be a reorganization, we shan't have the same sort of input I don't think, we shan't be allowed to have the same sort of input in a totally undemocratic er, er, authority that's going to be there where the, the governments will er, put er, most of the people on board, where the Home Secretary will decide on the Chairman, er, we don't know what the government regulations are going to say about balances in terms for the new authority. Er, if they say that er, they should be er, a balance or reserve put in by constituent authorities then we will have the money available to do that, if we didn't then they may have frozen the reserves that are already there and asked us to put some more money in as well. I find that is the situation that I've tried to er, guard against with the budget that we've been put in on this occasion, and I hope that answers er, er, Mr but er, I'll answer any other questions that are put up. Thank you very much. Could I say Chairman,in Worcester and Shropshire are in agreement with this budget and er, which has been engineered to a great deal by the Chairman of the Budget and er, we're here to, Yes I don't, I don't mind worked out, but engineered gives a very Regarding paragraph nine Chairman, no doubt you, you would tell us if there's been a response on this, because this does seem a useless step forward er, to increase the number of people at the coalface as it were, and self-financing, and no doubt we shall hear in due course about this. The Authority are pushing as much as they can on the scheme and there's been no response to yesterday. It's a crazy situation, because when Clarke was the Home Secretary, and he made a, a speech in parliament, we adjourned a meeting of the Authority to listen to him speaking, now we'd already made applications er, to increase the number complete officers by the, getting rid of the superintendents, and Clarke came out with what we'd said, yes, do that, but the Home Office are still saying no you can't. Er, I mean the whole lot separately, Yes, yes, I mean it's crazy. if I can comment on that Chairman, the erm, the Authority asked for thirty for next month, along with all the other authorities I think in the country, asked for an improvement in the, in the policing the country, and I think people that live in, in Shropshire, and the people that live in other er, parts of the country as well, would have welcomed the increase in the police force this year, but the government decided not to do that. We, we then had this situation where the, er, the Chief Constable ha went to great lengths to er, work out a new establishment for himself, and the senior management, and actually ach chi and er, and preempted it and then asked the er, the Home Office if he could use the money to increase the constables on the beat. We are still waiting for them to agree or not to that. The feeling at the moment is that they are sympathetic towards us, and they don't see any difficulty in that as yet, but no one is prepared to put their hand up and say yes go ahead and spend the money in that way. But the money is in the budget Chairman, I want to make that quite clear, the money is here in, in the West Mercia Police budget to be able to provide sixteen extra policemen immediately. Police Officers. Policemen immediately that that is given to us by the Home Office. I hope the Authority unanimously do support it. Yes, I think Chairman, you ought to ask your Committee to note paragraph six, I think that's quite important and worthy of note. Because we employ a lot of Can I record we've received this here Mr Chairman? Move the reports received? Yes. Now it is recommended that we in section nine and four A, in brackets four, someone move. Chairman, can he just report to us? Right, Chairman, if we can just go through this briefly. Erm, number thirty six. Erm, it contains access to four, five and they'll be submitted after discussion at this particular Committee, to Policy Planning or the Policy Resources Committee. As we've made perfectly clear in the last discussion we've just had, no final decisions on the implementation of any variations will be taken until Council meets on the twenty fifth of February. This booklet was distributed just before met, so in fact er, paragraph two does say at the moment that in our new recommended programme there isn't, well in fact they did agree those recommendations. In addition though, and we come on to them in a second, it asks for further reductions to be added to that if possible. But the provisional guid the guideline which was set by Policy and Resources in the first instance, was just for this Committee to identify seventy thousand pounds' worth of reductions. Those reductions were those identified in paragraph three and perhaps I do need to point out in fact that according to the report in Policy and Resources Committee, the use of carry forwards from the registration service of twenty thousand pounds in fact needs to be replicated across all three years. Now quite clearly that has er, implications on the registration service and believe the County Secretary will talk about that at some future point. Erm, paragraph four erm, outlines there is a gap after these new guidelines of six hundred and seventy one thousand, and to bridge that gap, the P and R asked that er, the Fire and Rescue Service identify a hundred thousand pounds of sur of reductions from its budget. The audition which is the additional item includes moves at Policy and Resources Committee that they asked all committees to expose further reductions if possible to help close this gap of six hundred and seventy one thousand pounds. Just find it on the kind of introduction. The other guideline which was issued was namely that of capital, where the a accepted the general guidelines which appeared in the county papers and as far as this Committee was concerned, would mean the general acceptance of all those items which appear in that the first year of that capital programme, subject to the proviso that the revenue contemplated and the benefits of the capital programme will be considered by Policy Panel in its forthcoming meeting. As far as the introduction is concerned I have nothing more to say. I am, unless there are any questions, can we not then five, move on to number five? Er, one question if I may Chair? Erm, I note that on paper R earlier, we er, approved the recommendation to ask Resources Management sub-committee to approve the release of three thousand of registration service carry forward monies, and we're now being asked to approve our budget next year, which er, also reduces twenty thousand for registration service. Can we be told please exactly what the er, balancing hand of carry forwards shown on the right estimates, the twenty three thousand consists of? Are they, what, what are those are registration services? That, the thirty three thousand includes twenty three thousand of the registration services carry forwards, but it does not take into account the three thousand which have just been requested here. So that would reduce it down to twenty. I just want to make sure we have the money now. If you, if you like, I could speak now Chair? Yes Er, naturally we're disappointed you're proposing to take er, twenty thousand of our twenty three thousand carry forwards in the registration service. The problem is as Mr has said, if that is expected to be replicated across future years, this would represent a ten percent reduction in the statutory service, er, which is only partly under control of this Committee, with mixed responsibilities with the Registrar General. Seventy percent of the expenditure is on staff who you do not employ and cannot dismiss, a large part of the income, or all the income is through the fees that are set na nationally by the government. You have very little room for manoeuvre within this service, and the Registrar General has reserve powers to impose services on you, and I would have to advice you it would be virtually, or I would have to say it would be impossible to achieve that ongoing reduction in future years. Erm, does the Chair wish er, me to reach section by section, or do you wish to take the bookings as they are Chairman? Well I think we've got to take it section by section. In that case the, the white page which isn't numbered at the back of page three, is the revised estimate, and shows the variations as outlined there. Erm, the only variations which are actually going outside the Committee control are as a result of the internal market variations which are going on down . Plus of course the growth in the Firemen's Pension Scheme of thirty one thousand in the current financial year, rising in future years. Otherwise the Committee services are containing their budgets within original cash limits. If there are no questions on the revised estimates Chair, then the, the base budget for ninety three, ninety four are those outlined on the green pages, identified it certain service by service. It's on these figures which in effect any Committee reductions will be made. I have nothing further to say on the green pages. Do members have any questions? Okay, does anybody Before, before you go on, you say that the twenty thousand can't be rep replicated in income registration column, does that show, how would show in here then? It doesn't show, it doesn't show in here, no. If the registration service was erm, asked to ma to reduce its budgets for ninety four, five and future years, by twenty thousand, it could do it in to three, four, five because it would bring forward twenty thousand pounds worth of carry forwards. However in five, six, its net expenditure would reduce to erm, two hundred and twelve thousand pounds. And from what County Secretary's just said, we would be unable to identify reductions in statutory service to live within that cash and The salmon pages then Chair, are those items which have been put forward to achieve the guidelines set by Policy and Resources Committee. In additions, I would remind members of the request from Policy and Resources to try and identify wherever possible further savings, in aid of the six hundred and seventy one thousand pound gap which currently exists between budget proposals and the expected figures. Any, yes Mr A couple of comments on that Chair, the first one, on the reduction in carry forwards, my understanding is that, in fact it's quite amusing in some ways, because this, this is something I was accused of as Chair of Resources Management during my year. Er, what in fact this Committee is doing, is saying that at one of the sections that makes up part of it, you happen to have carry forwards spare from last year, therefore use them because we can't identify anything else in budget savings for this, next year. Erm, that isn't necessarily the same as saying by the way your section will have to repeat that saving in future years. I think it's quite legitimate for this Committee to take that twenty thousand because it's there, and to say to itself, post budget we will have to look at the whole of the areas covered by budget protection to find the replicated twenty thousands in future years, and not just expect it to come from registration. Erm, from the comments from the table that seems to be generally agreed. Yet the point, it's a question really, which refers back to the last programme summary three, of the, the ninety four, ninety five base budget. Within that we're, we identified a gross expenditure and a gross income across all areas of the Committee's work. Now clearly some of those are, are outside our direct control. Nevertheless there's five hundred and fourteen thousand as our income that the Fire and Rescue Service, the Fire Training Unit, from the Trading Standards Department, and from Emergency Planning. My question is, has the P A G looked at any ways of increasing any of that income to any degree at all? And if so, what were their findings? We have reviewed charges on, and the Fire Service, erm, in the past, and, and we've increased certain erm, but we didn't see any way we could, we could increase any more at that time. So far as Trading Standards is concerned Chairman, the major income are weights and measures testing fees and they are set down by LACOTS, that's Local Authority Courts on Trad on Trading Standards on er, an agreed scale, so we charge exactly the same as other authorities, for the same, for the same work, and we increase the fees every year, er, in line with erm, the recommendation. Er, the amount that we get, get in depends on erm, the amounts of trade and industry. We've done relatively well in the past couple of years because we've had a lot of petrol pumps, because of the new, the opening of the big supermar the, the supermarkets where there's thirty, forty pumps go going, we make a fair bit of money in that way. But you can't guarantee that, er, and once the supermarket developments er, have gone, then you'll drop off down, down again, and again you're affected by the rece recession, whereas people won't replace things like weighbridges, er, automatic weighing machines that sort of thing during the recession, if you come out of recession, then you might get, and you say you might get some increase in fees in that, that area. But those are always considered er, during the erm, er, revised estimates time in any way. The other one and that erm, the major source of income are court, court costs, and again that depends on the cases you're taking, it depends on the, on the amount awarded by er, magistrates. Over the years, we've taken the risk to increase the court's costs, erm, where we've got agreed pro er, principles, and we've b we've been able to go to the courts and they've agreed with us, for instance, standard fees for overloaded vehicle cases, we charge seventy pounds a time. Er, and the courts by and large agree to erm, give us the seventy pounds out ev every time, but even so, even if we get the award of the costs, then the difficulty is, is, is in getting those costs in. Erm, it's up to the magistrate's clerk and sometimes the first So it's in the Fire Service that we've actually got time posted, and in fact most of the things that we wish to charge for we're actually statutorily prohibited from doing. Things like false alarm calls and so on, have been through the courts and we've been stopped from doing that. We charge the highest rate in the country for issuing fire certificates which is one of the few things which we're actually allowed to charge, and we charge more than virtually any other authority in this country. The trouble about that is, it's now enforced upon us and that's official target, we have to set priority of fire certificates because we need the money, bluntly, otherwise we have to find it elsewhere, so we give them a priority that they wouldn't otherwise have. Er, in terms of training, commercial training and it's not just the Fire and Rescue Service I spoke recently with the Chief Ambulance Officer, who's experiencing the same problems. Training's the first thing that goes, in a recession, that's the first thing that people cut, and not only, well we are achieving the fixed amount of income that we're obliged to in order to make previous reductions, but we're certainly not covering costs. So what you're effectively doing at the moment is subsidizing the private commercial sector. Erm, everything else we've looked at, there are either statutory problems or other problems that prevent us from charging. So it's, if further income generation is limited, it's through external circumstances rather than any internal increases. So we've really, we've really no alternative but to accept the hostage three, one to three on the reductions. It's best as I see it. Erm, salmon paper. We, we've got not alternative, did you say? Well I, I think that that's exactly what the Committee was saying to the Minister there. No, no. We, we, I thought were all saying that we felt that these reductions were actually unacceptable, or totally un almost unacceptable. Erm, there's not a word that's suitable to use actually in this case because we find that they would actually impact upon the service in a serious manner and therefore we don't, Well put it this way, if we were compelled to find the savings they ask, that is the only way we could do it. That's right, we need to put that rider on, that, that we would hope that, obviously would look favourably at er, erm, removing these restrictions on our service if at all possible. It's only specific in item two. Specifically in item two, yes, sorry. Yes, yes, yes. Chair, Sorry, one and three I, I, I think that we've, I, I certainly couldn't accept. We've got to accept the implication of, of item three though, in future years. I think, I think Council is accepting this but I think it's You're changing battle ground there Mr Chairman, to be honest. I think what Mr has said, is quite right, is that this is a carry forward for this year, and er, we've, we're clobbering it taking it up really is what we're saying. So what he's saying we've got to discount it So what he's saying is Next year we wouldn't have a, erm, look and see whether that twenty thousand is coming from the local authority, it's not necessarily in that particular money It's not our calls So what we're saying, or in item, well the last item, implication of further service reduction, with that twenty thousand pound on Fire and Rescue Service will be applicable for this year only? We've said that will be acceptable in P A G Chairman? It's not acceptable, it's not acceptable Chairman, we agreed in the P A G, it wasn't acceptable. It's been spelt out. We threw that one out then. Mm, yes. No way. But it's in, but it's in here isn't it? So we put a, as a rider on, that it had already passed the rider it says there, but we found it unacceptable at P A G. for we're offering them If it has to be found that's the only way. But to us it is unacceptable. Is the exception applied to two? Yes, So we've got to in Trading Standards? Yes, yes, yes. Trading Standards however important, and Trading Standards is very important, erm, when you're getting down to erm, reductions in equipment and uniforms and men, then lives are at risk, it is really a matter of er, er, of, of for our fire fighters that they have the right equipment and the right uniform and when it actually comes down, you can't compare that to maybe reductions in Trading Standards. If, if I can support that Chairman, and what John said also. That's why we couldn't, when we talked about it earlier, use the same word unacceptable, on both item two under Fire Service reductions. Because the Fire and Rescue Service reductions are unacceptable, and I think this Committee should say to, and to leave that in its proposal to Policy Panel and P and R. What things? But when it comes to the Trading Standards Board, what we're saying is, if P and R and Policy Panel this Committee finds seventy thousand pounds' worth of savings, then clearly item two represents a way of doing it. But it represents a way of doing it which is not what the members of this Committee, of all three parties I suspect, want to do. And we would therefore strongly urge them to consider that, and not to take that saving unless it was sort of necessary. Okay. Sounds reasonable to me. Are you all in favour of that then? Yes, as long as this possibly isn't major that we do not agree on? Well the Chairman Are we? So we're all in favour? Yes Right. Capital programme Chair, is that outlined in erm, on the pink pages, if members have any comments to put to David Aha There are no proposals either in er draught directive form or before this house on that matter as far as I know and certainly er if that were to be the proposal it would be objected to strenuously on this side of the house. Article eight B two provides that citizens of the union shall have the right to vote and to stand as candidates in elections to the European parliament. At present there are considerable disparities between the way in which the right to vote and the right to stand as a candidate are treated in various member states. On the right to vote for example, the U K grants this right to all U K citizens who've been out of the country for less than twenty years, while Germany extends voting rights to all German nationals residing in another member country of the council of Europe and those who've lived in non-member country for less than ten years. Certain member states, Denmark, The Netherlands and Portugal grant such voting rights only to those expatriate nationals who are living in another E C member state. There are also differences between the states on the ability to stand as a candidate and the measure that we are debating this evening will ensure that in respective elections to the European parliament there is a greater degree of harmonisation. gentleman came to this house it seemed to be that he challenged the establishment and many of us welcomes that view it seemed to give a breath of fresh air, but now it seems to me that he's become entirely institutionalised, can he explain that to the house? Absolutely, I plead guilty, erm the honourable member is er certainly found me out there. I'm totally institutionalised and no doubt erm you'll see the truth of that if and when, if and when the Jocklyn report comes before this house. These proposals also include additional checks on nationality to prevent multiple candidature and voting. Community voters living outside their home country are required to meet the same qualifying rules of residence as any other national within that state. That is a reasonable principle that we support. Regulation four is right to create an offence of standing as a candidate in more than one member state at the same election. It is also right that there should be in new rule eight five, a declaration on the part of prospective E C candidates that contains details of nationality, address and last constituency in the home member state and evidence that the individual is not standing as a candidate in another member state. We also support the element of flexibility within the arrangements whereby community citizens have the option of whether to vote in their country of residence or in the home country via a postal ballot. So while there is much to support er we do none the less Mr Deputy Speaker, need to draw attention to the Conservatives half heartedness in one particular area and that is registration and the registration of voters. We note the transitional arrangements that apply to the U K should enable the electoral registers to include as many E C citizens as possible. Regulation eight authorises electoral registration officers to register relevant citizens of the union as European parliamentary electors and regulation nine requires the officer to publish a register of relevant citizens of the union entitled to vote. However delay has meant that the ordinary electoral register is already published so regulation eighteen substitutes publication date of May the ninth for the European community citizens register. Hence applications must be in by nine weeks time, nine weeks hence at the very least. In order words by April the twenty second. I give way gladly to the minister. you understand that the honourable gentleman wants to establish that the government has been extraordinarily dilatory, that er there is a massive delay, there is problem for electoral registration officers because that the regulations, the regulations depend upon a directive. The directive was agreed and promulgated in December ninety three. We have been two months in producing this very complicated set of regulations. I don't think that's slow, I think that's moving with very considerable speed. Here, here. Er indeed the directive was promulgated as the minister said but I don't think it was a bolt out of the blue, it was of course something that we around for some considerable time before that and of course that excuse hardly applies to the delay in establishing the European parliamentary constituency committees, er as the minister er will know very well, it was merely a matter of seven weeks, er the excuse being that had they had another seven weeks they could have had the public inquiry stage, the reality of course was that there was plenty of time to do this in good time and in good order and without the confusion that exists now er around the candidatures and the boundaries of the existing European boundaries. On the question of registration of electors, clearly it is very important that if we now have less than nine weeks from this evening for those possibly four hundred thousand people to seek registration then the it is essential that the minister and the department er engage in a serious advertising campaign to ensure that people can exercise the rights that are due to them and I would like the minister perhaps in his later remarks, to expand on what, if any, measure the government intends to take to publicise the fact of E C voting rights to those four hundred thousand or so er European citizens of voting age resident in this country. Needless to say er Mr Deputy Speaker, other European countries are taking the job more seriously. There's a advertisement er for example in a recent issue of the Guardian, if my er Dutch was erm a little better I'd quote it into the record but erm I'm afraid it's, it doesn't make very much sense to me at the moment. But nonetheless the literal translation I understand is that people who are Dutch citizens in this country should contact the er ambassador at thirty eight Hyde Park Gate and seek the relevant forms in order to register for the election and vote in the U K and I hope our friends er in in the Binnenhoff have taken that a little more seriously than appears to have been the case in in the Home Office. Similar exercises have been undertaken by other er governments and there's a tremendous contrast with the way those governments have actually sought to do this, with our own government, erm no publicity whatsoever has appeared yet and again I offer the minister the chance to tell us at some later point, what the government is prepared to do to exert itself on this matter and to tell us indeed whether it wants people to register erm it isn't particularly clear whether in fact this is part of er some idea that the government has that people shouldn't register and I think that the minister needs to be very clear about this so that people get the message outside, because nine and a half million people didn't vote, even in the last general election. So could I therefore ask the minister to, on another matter, to ensure that later in his remarks would he agree to the proposal that the right to a postal vote should be highly publicised in this country, perhaps by putting the R P F nine A form in the newspapers well before the closing date of May the twentieth. Not least because of our course many people will be away er during the Summer on their holidays and some indeed may well be involved in the D-day celebrations. It's self evident Mr Deputy Speaker that this government is utterly unconcerned to carry out an obligation to which is bound by a treaty, freely entered into and the minister must answer the question of how he squares this inactivity with regulation nine three which obliges registration officers to take reasonable steps to obtain information about who should be eligible to appear on the electoral role. The government should declare a willingness this evening to put some energy or resources into maximising electoral turn out among E C voters. The importance of ensuring a high turnout amongst E C nationals surely warrants something more than the complacency and drift that has come to characterise this government's whole policy towards the European community. Tonight Mr Deputy Speaker, the Conservatives have gone through the motions. Law and treaty demand that boundaries be withdrawn er be redrawn and E C citizens given the vote. These orders fulfil that bear minimum and it will be left to others to do that job well. Here, here. Mr Michael Spicer. Mr Deputy Speaker I have to confess to you it is a matter of some indifference to me as to how many M E Ps were elect elect to the European parliament, er if eighty one is to be the new magic number well so be it. Though I suppose one has to make a passing one has to make a passing er reference to the information which has come out in the other house erm and be publicised this weekend in the press but er er at one million almost one million a slug, M E Ps don't come cheap, er I suppose one however would want to make allowances for the fact that they have three parliamentary buildings, that they have to go on trips and that er they have to pay er er I suppose German rates for their bureaucracy so there clearly are exceptional factors and indeed I wouldn't want to make too much of that. What I really want to ask before the house, very, very briefly indeed is the question of er what are they going to do when they get there and er thus look at the question of the cost effectiveness, well I see it . Order in this very short debate it might be advantageous if I would just draw to the attention of the house this scope of the debate the scope of the debate, debate should be confirmed to the desir desirability of the proposed boundary for European parliamentary constituencies and by introducing the changes to the franchise and qualifications of representatives for European parliament elections in the manner specified. If honourable members would in fact stick to the debate in that particular way and in fact er er it would be of great advantage of the house it is a short debate er and and going off the the main scope of the debate in fact leaves less time for other people to speak. Mr Michael Spicer. Of course I accept that ruling entirely Mr Deputy Speaker but the point I was trying to make, I am going to give the speech very briefly indeed I do assure you, is that if you're trying to assess the numbers er and the correctness of the numbers that are being er er going to vote for and indeed the boundaries associated with those numbers, it's a perfectly I would have thought, fair question to ask oneself as they go off er from us as to what they are going off in to er and I I do assure you Mr Deputy Speake, I don't plan to speak more than two minutes, two to three minutes on this matter, I do hope that you will allow me just to make a very brief point on this. Because otherwise it's almost impos . Order, I am not in, I am not allowing anything outside the scope of the debate Mr Michael Spicer. Can I ask you then Mr Deputy Speaker, on a point of order as to whether or not it's in order for us to discuss the cost effectiveness of er of a member of the European parliament and the a and the costs associated. . The simple answer to that is no, it is not in order. Mr Michael Spicer . If we're not allowed to discuss the costs er associated with er electing a greater number of M E Ps to the er European parliament er and the boundaries associated with it, I have nothing further to say. Very good Mr Matthew Taylor. The er the er it has to be said on this side I suspect that the brevity of that speech was quite welcome, only because er I think er a number of us weren't altogether sure how how much time we would, we would get in this er debate after the front bench speaks, speeches. But the I want to make essentially er two points, one relating er to the overall boundary review and one relating er an argument relating to my own area. If the proposals for electoral reform across the European union had occurred, this debate would not be taking place, boundaries would not be the relevant issue and a common electoral system would mean that the citizens of the European community could be properly represented as a whole. I believe it's not acceptable in any democratic institution to have one area er represented in an unfair and undemocratic way, in a way that distorts er the er parliament er itself and under article one three eight, paragraph three of the E C treaty a common electoral system is a requirement. It's. Point of order Mr Bernard Jenkins. Erm in view of your last ruling er Mr Deputy Speaker, is it in order to discuss different voting systems, are we not discussing those eligible to vote and the parliamentary constituencies? The honourable gentleman of the chair. Mr Matthew Taylor. Er I th I think if the honourable member pays attention he will appreciate that the boundaries are the nub of the issue in terms of er electoral systems and the common electoral system to which this country is a signatory in agreeing that that should be where we are er headed, is a principle which I believe that this er commission should have been asked to address, it should have been what was happening er at this time in the history of the European parliament, should have happened long ago but sadly it's a principle which both Labour and Conservative governments in the past have preferred to ignore frankly for their own electoral benefit. Whatever arguments are being used to block the introduction of a fair electoral system in U K Westminster elections can surely not follow the blocking reform er of our electoral procedure for Europe. The proposals demanding a common fair electoral system have been passed by the European parliament. The proposals rest on the table of the council of ministers and it's common knowledge that this government er has er shown the greatest reluctance to see any movement er forward. I believe it's a necessary reform, it's a pity that the government have not taken the opportunity of change in the number of seats to bring some measure of proportionality to the British European elections. Even if the government did not wish to take this opportunity for a full reform to a fair voting system, the extra six seats offered the chance of creating a more proportional system by creating a so called additional member top up to ensure under represented views gained their rightful place in Europe. We could have created a fairer system without incidentally, the problems that have been referred to in earlier debates of trying to redraw boundaries at such short notice er before the European elections. The problems of candidates getting a place and all the rest of it. However given that even this partial form has been rejected,hats cannot, in the broad sense, be expected therefore to support these proposals. But I also want to address a narrower point in greater detail in relation to my own county of Cornwall. I don't know it may be that I'll be the only member er that talks in terms of a specific Euro seat er in any detail but it does matter in our area and we have a long history of arguing that case. The European parliamentary elections act of nineteen seventy eight states that the electorate of any European parliamentary constituency in Great Britain should be as near to the electoral quota as is reasonably practicable, having regard where appropriate to special geographical considerations . The relative importance given to the second half of this statement is crucial to the argument for a Cornish seat. There's strong evidence that Cornwall fulfils the requirements of those special geographic considerations. The committee proposals for a Cornwall and West Plymouth European parliamentary constituency provoked an enormous response opposing the link with Plymouth er as it has done on each occasion that the constituency's been reviewed. The late David Penhaligon argued for a separate constituency in nineteen seventy eight and I argued the case in select committee in nineteen eighty eight and the most important fact about these responses is the sheer weight of numbers from democratically elected bodies in Cornwall. Those include the county council all six Cornish district councils, the Cornwall association of town and parish councils and forty eight individual Cornish town and parish councils. Councils run by all groupings and more importantly on the whole er by none at all er through independent councillors at parish level and they have responded with that united voice, declaring their support for a separate Cornish constituency and it might er bear remarking as I think members on all sides of this house are aware, getting that kind of agreement between councils at different tiers and in different areas of the county is pretty remarkable in itself. The responses are all the more impressive when you consider the short period for consultation on the proposals. The case for a Cornish constituency has also been supported by the business community and leading academics. Peter Fitzgerald, one of the largest manufacturing employers in the county and chairman of the Cornwall economic forum, has emphasised the importance to local business of Cornwall having its own M E P. The institute of Cornish studies, the University of Exeter, even Cambridge University made strong cases er for a separate Cornwall constituency and many individuals of course took their views up er personally er to the commission. Now I should explain why I believe that Cornwall is a special case and why so many local people argued in these terms. There are five grounds. First er the precedent that exists for concessions on the electoral quota, the separate cultural identity, the special geographic situation, the economic needs of Cornwall and finally the concerns of Plymouth itself. Firstly the criteria for the mean electorate size for a European parliamentary constituency has previously been used as a justification for ignoring the case for Cornwall, yet concessions have been made in other areas establishing such constituencies that do not meet the size requirement an that's because it is accepted that European parliamentary constituencies should be created along the lines of natural communities, communities of identity and communities of interest. Cornwall has a very strong identity as a separate community and the present arrangement which links Cornwall with West Plymouth, I believe benefits neither area. Although the English review is being conducted independently from the rest of the U K it's relevant to examine the overall picture. Northern Ireland returns a representative for every three hundred and eight four thousand electors. Even on the mainland there are marked variations. For the proposed West Wales seat I understand the electorate is only about four hundred thousand. The fi just in fact just exactly four hundred thousand. The figure for the Highlands and Islands is an electorate of just three hundred and ten thousand. In other words Cornwall's electorate, three hundred and seventy two thousand, is actually more than the Highlands and the Islands and virtually the same as for Northern Ireland seats and for the West Wales seat. If you look in other parts of Europe Luxembourg and the Republic of Ireland for example, the figures are as low as thirty six thousand and a hundred and sixty one thousand electors per member er respectively so the precise sizes of the constituencies is not the most material er issue in this case. The European parliament has a wide range of electorate per member and the electoral quota would not be extraordinary were Cornwall to get its own seat. It is i i I I we have a wide range of changes that would flow out from that so you couldn't just take a change to Cornwall which would then create an oversized Devon seat, I quite accept that and we've argued from the first that this would have to be part of the review as a whole. You couldn't take Cornwall simply alone. It is expected moreover that Cornwall with a rapidly growing population, one of the most grow rapidly growing in the country will not in any case remain much under quota er for very long. It is estimated indeed that the population will grow to the level of five hundred thousand relatively rapidly. So given that the electoral quota argument is not final, contrary to er what the commission implies and what seems to have been the brief given to the commission, the, we come on to the other points. Cornwall has in a separate identity with its own history, traditions, custom and language. Attributes for it er firmly rooted in a Celtic past that frankly bears more relation to Wales and Scotland than it does er to the past er in Devon. There would have been objections if areas of Scotland or Wales had been linked with parts of England for convenience er of this review, but it seems Cornwall once again as a distinct and separate identity, continues to be ignored. The European union recognises that special regard must be taken er in respect of areas with strong regional identities. Indeed the European parliamentary resolution is specific on that point and I believe the boundary commission has failed to take the opportunity to exercise that requirement. Thirdly it's disappointing that the committee have ignored the well defined geographical boundary of Cornwall, along the river Tamar. It is still a very substantial physical and psychological barrier between Plymouth and Cornwall. Tamar bridge is the only road vehicle crossing for twenty three miles from Rainhead northward to Gunnislake Bridge and Cornwall is almost as island, with natural boundaries fixed by the coastline and the river Tamar. It's effectively isolated from the rest of the country and it's often forgotten in conversation when people say well I was at Bristol, in your part of the world er at the weekend. It's actually forgotten of course that Bristol is ne nearer London er than it is er to Cornwall. Indeed for some the distance between their home and Plymouth is longer than the journey from London to Bristol. My fourth point is probably the single most important reason why Cornwall should be treated as a special case and it's not an emotional reason. It's the failure er to address the economic geography of the county. Plymouth and Cornwall has totally different economic identities and European entanglement between them, I believe is mutually economically detrimental. The economy of Cornwall is still heavily reliant on traditional industries such as fishing, farming, tourism and mining for its income. Plymouth on the other hand relies mainly on the fact that it's a m urban conurbation with a growing and diversified industrial and commercial base. The two economies distinctive and incompatible needs have been recognised in a development that has occurred since the committee met. Europe's regional economic development programme has been designated objective to status to Plymouth. This is targeted as areas fighting industrial decline. Cornwall on the other hand, has been a, has got the appropriate objective status aimed at developing rural areas, that demonstrates the difference between the two. I'm not opposed to links when they're relevant, I've in fact argued and encouraged them and defended them where they've taken place and I believe that they were important but I don't believe in them taking place where they're irrelevant and er where they er are unhelpful. Cornwall has one of the worst black spots in the country for unemployment, poverty and further economic difficulties, has one of the lowest gross domestic products in Europe. The central statistical office er show regional G T P figures for Cornwall in nineteen ninety one that put Cornwall so badly off er that our G D P is in fact just er seventy three percent of the national average, whilst Devon's figures are eighty seven percent and I might add in terms of the different progress of the two, in nineteen eighty nine Cornwall's G D P was seventy five point six percent so it's actually fallen back whereas Plymouth's was eighty five point five percent and you've actually seen it grow. So we've actually been moving in opposite directions er in the er in the two areas. The economic performance of the two are divergent, they have a different set of problems and the linking of part of Plymouth with Cornwall creates a wholly artificial unit unrelated to geographical, social or economic reality. Indeed the creation of a split in the city of Plymouth itself, makes that divide even more stark because it's even more clearly not in the interests of Plymouth, as Plymouth city council have been keen er to point out. The Plymouth interest, that final point, is I believe as clear as Cornwall's and the natural links in South Devon would provide the basis for a seat in which it could be better represented. Cornwall needs a voice of its own, to argue its case for regional funding, to improve infrastructure, to reduce unemployment and to encourage industry. Funds need to be directed at improving Cornish roads, communications and rail links. The Liberal Democrats are opposed to the basis of this review at national level we believe an opportunity has been missed or perhaps I should say ducked for the common, fair electoral system for which this country is supposedly a signatory. But if the chance for a fair electoral system is lost at least we should have played to what strength there is in a single member system and properly recognised the individual communities of the U K. That chance has been missed without review and on that grounds I don't believe this review should go through. Richard Shepherd. Thank you sir erm in that the government and the opposition front bench want to move this measure erm fulfilling their commitments to the Maastricht treaty, I accept the methodology and the precedent that the government cites, I think that's appropriate, erm I just wanted to very briefly say that this is of course a vote no longer like the generality of the population voting for the membership of a golf club in which we have varying degrees of er interest. We are now trying to affirm citizenship through the vote and therefore the nature in which we distribute these seats and the affirmation that we give through the vote will not relate in fact to any of the sentiments I believe as pronounced by the opposition front bench. Both the Liberal Democrats spokesman and the opposition front bench ally themselves to an out of reach of er lunacy that is not shared by the generality of the population outside. I understand sir that at the last erm election European matters only thirty one percent of the population could find their ways to voting stations. That may be of course because they were denied the Liberal Democrats panacea for everything namely erm proportional representation. There is profound and deep argument of course that that is no more representative or true of democracy than a single member constituency. It is a legitimate debate and of course the parroting of it as the only way forward is inappropriate to serious people trying to discuss that. One understands the route as to why the erm Liberal Democrats wish to pursue that. One cannot understand the route why that's so that the Labour party wishes erm to advantage that. But what I am saying in context, no this has a deal to do with the co boundaries, as you know erm the honourable member well knows, the essence of this this is wholly inappropriate in terms of erm trying to latest citizenship through an arrangement of six additional boundaries into a erm union and a political state and I think that that is the profound objection that this side of the house has expressed over a long period of time now, is a reflection of the public mood in the country in respect of this election and the way the boundaries er are are erm apportioned and all I say in conclusion is that this is an evidence further of the irrelevance of this house in reflecting and attesting to public opinion outside. Well Mr er Deputy Speaker I er don't wish to er follow the honourable member of one of my er neighbours but I actually think it's really part of grown up politics to ensure that the political opinion of a nation is adequately represented in the forums of that nation whether it be in this place or in the European er parliament and to that extent I make no bones about it that erm I wish that we were debating a different electoral system and Mr Deputy Speaker going back to the minister's introduction erm it is a fact, I didn't wish to intervene because I didn't, it's a short debate and I didn't want to take up er extra time, but it is a fact is it not that our electoral system unique across Europe means that our deadline as opposed to what the French are going to do is different to all the other member states. See all the other member states of er European er community Mr Deputy Speaker,use proportional representation either on national lists or on large regional lists. It is very easy if you like the day before literally as the minister said, the day before for them to make their change as to where the cut off point comes. It doesn't affect the value of anybody's vote in those countries at all. That cannot be the case in a single member constituency arrangement. It will have to be for us at least twenty one days, that's the absolute rock bottom minimum I would have thought therefore the French I suspect have us over a barrel and we would have to cough up for the enormous expenditure of an extra building at Strasbourg which is not needed erm as I understand it er that er view I savoured I don't erm have the details of that. But Mr Deputy Speaker I sincerely hope these are the last erm boundary changes we have to debate. I mean it has been referred to that we might have to do them again, I sincerely hope we don't have to go through this process again. In fact I suspect on June the ninth even the wipe out of the Conservative party in the European elections may make even those members that side think that in order to say their own skins in the future they will actually have to start to think about a fairer electoral system and indeed there will be a unified system on the way forced by Europe on this house if we do not take it upon ourselves to do so and it will be our own fault that we've shirked our responsibilities in my view to actually take it on board. As my honourable friend said from the front bench, the Labour party is absolutely firmly committed now both by the voices of the leadership and the votes and the resolutions at our party conference that we are in favour of a proportional representation system for the European parliament and I hope that when the elections come Mr Deputy Speaker, and people will be arguing about why they're voting for Europe on June the ninth in one boundary as opposed to another and why they've got erm erm different rules for this election of course as indeed for the last European election because the registration will be different, allowing all kinds of erm how can I put it foreigners in inverted commas, to vote in our elections in this country because it is the European elections that we will actually put the point across that er for the future there will be different arrangements made indeed. The second point I want to er make Mr Deputy Speaker wholly relating to this erm er clutch of er orders of which er eighteen plus the er the schedule which the minister didn't have time to go through in great detail, is the thrust of why I put the amendment down erm in fact that this order should not be er erm approved indeed until the citizens of Gibraltar have been and able to be represented in the European parliament. Now I know that's not selected and I don't make any complaint about that erm far from it er I would not complain ever against the chair but I did introduce erm well I don't and I wouldn't but I erm introduced the erm first reading of a bill on this matter yesterday. M Mr Deputy Speaker, you will have seen if you read these er orders in front of us today running to at least er I reckon about ten thousand words, but by and large, all and sundry are going to be bote, er going to be out of vote on June the ninth, citizens of the European union and the minister has actually said on one or two occasions, all citizens of the union, well it is not true that all citizens of the union will be able to vote on er June the ninth. I'll grantcha if you're a citizen of the union living in South America, the West Indies or the Pacific and you happen to be a member of the French colonies, you'll have a vote in the European parliament in the elections. But if you happen to be a citizen of the union a citizen of the European union, a member of the only mainland European colony belonging to this country namely Gibraltar, you don't have a vote. Now I don't think that's right, fair or democratic and if we've shied away from it for years handling this issue and now we're in the position where this house has total responsibility for the thirty thousand citizens in total of Gibralt it's not the electorate, the total population, thirty thousand and we continued to deny them vote yet they are citizens of the European union under our own legislation and accepted as such by the European parliament and it is wholly wrong Mr Deputy Speaker that the boundaries that we're discussing in this bill were not drawn so that and it could easily have been done,that we could have incorporated the twenty odd thousand European union citizens of Gibraltar who do wish to be part of Spain and won't be for fifty years or more until it's been a democracy that long, but to give them the right to vote. To give them the right to vote by absorbing them into one of the English constituencies and it could have easily been done. I accept completely what the honourable member for erm Truro Truro actually said in his speech just er that he just made, absolutely right that the cultural and the geographical identity of people matters so far as the European parliament is concerned and in respect of our responsibility, the responsibility of this house to citizens of Gibraltar. It's wrong, Mr Deputy Speaker, if they're living in this country erm on a semi-permanent basis and happen to have been here last October they'll have a vote so will any everybody else who's a citizen of the European union, so will peers of the realm who happen to be living elsewhere whether they're in this country or outside this country under these regulations and previous regulations, have a vote in the European elections and I think it's wholly wrong that erm citizens of other European countries namely France because that's the one and it's remarkable is it not that France is the one that's gonna be the cause of this whole edifice collapsing if we don't submit to their extra demands but citizens of France who are citizens living in their colonies, as I've said in South America, the West Indies and the Pacific, will have a vote in the European elections on June the ninth and yet we have got citizens for whom we are responsible for in this house, we cannot shirk it onto anyone else, we deny them the responsibility and I think it's about time the house addressed this matter. Mr Teddy Taylor. Mr Deputy Speaker. I just wanted to say three brief things about the boundaries, before doing so I think I may have to declare a personal interest. I have to tell the house I have in fact put my name forward to be considered as a candidate to stand to stand for Conservative party in the new constituency of South Essex. It's just possible Mr Deputy Speaker, it's just possible I may not be selected for all kinds of reasons but if I was selected it might at least give the people of that lovely part of the world the chance of having the referendum they never had over Maastricht because of the shameful way in which the Labour party was not willing to allow the people to have their say on that vital issue. The three issues I want to put forward to the minister are, number one does this matter? My honourable friend the member for has rightly said that only thirty one percent of the people bother to vote and so why be bothering with new things at all. In logic we would say to ourselves because the Germans are getting more seats, because East Germany is being added to the union, why on earth should Britain get more as well and it seems very difficult to explain why we should have extra seats at all. The other factor we should also bear in mind is the great majority of the people are not only not interested, they're basically hostile the whole business and I think that members may not have really noticed if they looked at the European newspaper, the highest ever figure, fifty three percent of all the people of Britain are now totally and completely opposed to the whole business of the E C, they don't think it's a good idea. So why should we have new boundaries. There is of course a special interest in South Essex where the people are concerned that while the government wanted to give aid to South Essex because of its unemployment, this was unfortunately stopped by commissioner Mr and also of course by commissioner Mr Milan solely on their decisions and this is a fact that all the papers assisted area status was put forward by the government for South Essex. It was also of course, we were put forward for objective two, this was turned down by these two commissioners simply because they sliced off two percent of the application. So there is a special interest of course in South Essex. But the viewpoint I would like to ask the minister, it's a very important one is, can you give us any more assurance about whether this is actually going to happen? Has he been in touch with the French government? It's very important indeed that people for example in Southend on Sea should know where they're going. If this new regulation comes through they'll be part of a new seat but if in fact they don't have this regulation come into effect they'll belong to another s and when you've had in fact in Southend say the lowest recorded percentage voting of any constituency in England at the last Euro elections I think it's terrible important we should in fact explain to people whether this is likely to happen. I think that people are getting very concerned indeed over how the French government are basically disrupting so many worthwhile things for silly reasons. We had the G A T talks held up for a lengthy period simply because the French wanted even more cash for agriculture and of course they got it and it's rather silly when we're spending two hundred and fifty million pounds a week on dumping and destroying food. We agreed to give more money to the French for agriculture. But in the case of these boundaries. Of course certainly. On that very point sir I'm grateful to the honourable member for giving way but would he not agree with me that actually the failure of G A T at the end was that by which Caribbean bananas failed to be protected. Mr Deputy Speaker I I wouldn't be in order to go into this but I don't agree at all, as the honourable gentleman's well aware, that filthy protectionism of the C A P forces up prices of food for the average family in Britain by twenty eight pounds a week. I must insist we get back to the boundaries, I've repeatedly had to do so this afternoon I would have thought it that the message would have got over to me honourable members before now. Sir Teddy Taylor. Absolutely right Mr Deputy Speaker and I just wish that members wouldn't raise these irrelevant points. What I do say to the honourable gentleman is his argument is rubbish, bad for the third world, bad for the people of Europe and outside Mr Deputy Speaker I'd be glad to give him his answer although quite rightly to say I can't give it here. But this particular case Mr Deputy Speaker what we want to know from the minister is on these new boundaries what do we actually have to do? My understanding is that the European parliament has got so many buildings now including a great new building at Brussels built at huge cost, enormous cost and a new building they want to build at Strasbourg. They're now paying rentals of twenty four million pounds a year. Now quite frankly Mr Deputy Speaker, if we want these new constituencies, including South Essex, it seems we're going to have to say to the French they can have lots and lots of money to build lots and lots of new buildings for this rather ridiculous parliament and quite honestly Mr Deputy Speaker, members tonight in voting on the new boundaries will really have to decide what we want to do. Are we simply to chuck out these extra six constituencies and say no to the French, we're not going to agree to extra silly expenditure or are we in fact going to cave in as we've done so often. I think members should bear in mind the costs of caving in to French blackmail. We did it over G A T at great expense to the people of this country and of Europe, great damage to the third world. It seems if we agree to these new constituents coming through, we'll only do it by having additional buildings which are utterly wasteful and quite honestly Mr Deputy Speaker, I think you'll your constituents a very distressed indeed about the waste, the fraud and the mismanagement of the E C, of course Sir. I'm most grateful to the honourable gentleman er of course these buildings are all related to the orders were discussing in order that M E Ps can be elected in the first place and is it not interesting to note that if agreement can't be reached as indeed is the position of the moment er in u what is called the European union over where actually the parliament is going to sit. One would have thought the agreement could be reached easily on that matter. What on earth is the possibility of reaching agreement on much more substantial matters? A aren't we supposed to believe this European union is won, that it's all unanimous on the rest of it, there doesn't seem to be much evidence of that, even when it comes to where the M E Ps should actually sit. How right you are Mr Deputy Speaker, of course I couldn't go into this because it's out of order but on the other hand I would simply say to the honourable gentleman if he looks at the basic policies, the basic flaw of the E C is it can't solve problems and all these new M E Ps we're thinking of sending over I think we should bear in mind the problem, they're going over to something where problems can't be solved. The ideal example of course the C A P, we've had reform after reform but nothing happens. The final point Mr Deputy Speaker and of course the honourable gentleman knows this is absolutely right, expenditure at an all time high, mountains at an all time high and also of course the gap between consumer prices and world prices the highest ever recorded. As the Secretary of State for foreign affairs said to me, twenty eight pounds a week extra per family, including the honourable gentleman's constituents . really it's er testing my patience now I'm afraid. I must insist the honour honourable gentleman and interventions too should be in accordance with the with the debate and wi o o on the boundaries, so Teddy Taylor. Mr Deputy Speaker how right you are Mr Deputy Speaker, I've been trying very hard methodically to stick these regulations, unfortunately when you get members ask you direct questions if one doesn't get any kind of answer it gives the impression you're ignoring them. What I can say to the honourable gentleman who I know always attends these European debates with great regularity, I'll be only too glad to speak to him outside as well as the honourable gentleman to try and clarify these matters. The final point I want to make Mr Deputy Speaker which I think is very, very important indeed, bearing in mind that fact that so few people bothered to vote in these is is there any possibility that before these regulations come into effect we can have at the same time, a little pamphlet put out saying exactly what these additional M E Ps and the existing ones actually can do. I think quite honestly in the progress of democracy, people sometimes gain the impression that the European parliament can do things it can't do. I know a lot of people who study it carefully take the view if it closed down tomorrow nobody would notice apart from the taxi drivers in Strasbourg. But the kind of things people write about now will say can we do anything about the export of live cattle? The answer's no. Can we stop the Euro plug? Of course not it's going through majority vote in the European council. So therefore Mr Deputy Speaker in conclusion, what I'd say to the minister is, number one do we really need this order at all? because why should we have extra seats just because Germany are getting more. Secondly are we going to cave in to French blackmail again and what will it cost us, and thirdly if we're going to have even more people going to Strasbourg or to Brussels or to anywhere else, isn't it about time we tried to save the people of Britain who are getting more and more worried and concerned and perplexed about E C, particularly in places like Harrow where they take a special interest in public affairs. What they want to know is what are they actually going to do? Would it make any difference if there wasn't a European parliament at all? Sir Geoffrey Holn . Thank you Mr Deputy Speaker. I'm delighted to once again have the opportunity of following the honourable member for Southend in a debate about European matters. I wish him well in his er efforts to become a candidate in the forthcoming European elections. I'm also looking forward to seeing a copy of the election manifesto on which he fights those elections and er er how it will be possible for the Conservative party to er put forward a manifesto that he is comfortable with and also a manifest that the honourable member for say Old Bexley and Sidcup is similarly comfortable with but er no doubt that's a matter for the Conservative party. The great advantage of having a fixed date er for these European elections on the ninth of June, a date that's been well known for a considerable time now, should be the certainty for the electorate, that they know not only the date of that election but the geographical boundary er of the constituency in which they live er the candidates that they can choose from and of course in relation to European elections, the number of er members of the European parliament that there will be representing the United Kingdom. But even if we agree this order tonight none of those issues will actually be clearly resolved er, there is a temptation and I regret that the honourable member for Southend succumbed to this, there's a temptation to blem blame the French and the French government for this present state of uncertainty. Er, but that assertion needs to be examined just a little more closely because the British government are not without blame in relation to this matter, er the issues er affecting these forthcoming elections should have been resolved at the Edinburgh summit during the presidency of the British government. They should have been resolved in December nineteen ninety two because it was decided at that summit that there would be eighteen extra seats for er the then er united Germany. That there would be an extra six seats for France, Italy and the United Kingdom. But in addition the British government went along with the er demand by the French government that they should recognise Strasbourg as a meeting place for the European parliament in perpetuity. The British government agreed to that and it's that matter that now causes the present difficulties and uncertainties. John Major came back from the Edinburgh summit and he told this house that he was entirely happy with the his negotiation. That he was entirely happy with the results of that summit. But in so doing the Prime Minister overlooked two crucial aspects of what was decided at that summit. Firstly he overlooked the fact that the European parliament had consistently voted for Brussels as a meeting place. That the European parliament in fact led by Conservative members of the European parliament very often on this issue had argued strongly that Brussels should be a single meeting place for the European parliament. There are members of the European parliament who s s support Strasbourg as a meeting place clearly, but the majority do not, the majority want to meet in a single city and in so doing the majority have accepted that there should be a new European parliament building in Brussels and that European parliament building now operates. It operates however on a very limited basis in the course of nineteen ninety four it's likely that there will only be eight half day meetings of the full European parliament in Brussels. So the second factor that the Prime Minister overlooked is that the existing chamber in Strasbourg is simply not large enough to accommodate the extra numbers of Euro MPs who will be elected to the European parliament, not so much as a result of the Edinburgh agreement, but in fact as a result of the er enlargement that is in prospect. Again something that the government have strongly supported. Now, given that the government's support of the idea of Strasbourg as being a permanent place of meeting for the European parliament. It's proper that we should be asking in the context of these proposals for boundary changes, affected as they are by the decision of the er first of all the French national assembly and now the French government to make life difficult for the other member states as far as the ratification of these proposals are concerned, it's right that we should be asking what is the position of the British government in relation to these matters. I I asked the er the minister earlier about this question and I appreciate his difficulties being a home office minister rather than a foreign office minister and I quite understand his reluctance to er stray too far from his departmental portfolio but the reality is that the British government agreed that the European parliament should continue to meet in Strasbourg but we've heard nothing from the minister as to where the money should come from er in order to make that commitment a reality because I'm sure that every member opposite would say that the uncertainty about the present boundaries is not the er responsibility of the British government, that it's a matter for the French government to sort out which boundaries er will be in place in the United Kingdom by June the ninth, the date of the European elections, but the reality is that the British government have gone along with the arrangement for having Strasbourg recognised as a er seat for the European parliament. But they've gone along with it without recognising that there will be a cost and members opposite have consistently criticised the European parliament for having a number of buildings from which to operate. They're right to criticise the European parliament for that. That's no making of the European parliament, the European parliament will be delighted to hold its meetings in the new building in Brussels. Er but the truth of the matter is that the British government would not . interesting but when are we gonna hear something about the boundaries. Mr Geoffrey Holn. I I'm grateful Mr Deputy Speaker and I I will certainly er stay in order but the British electorate coming up to June the ninth and the European er elections will not know even if we pass these particular proposals tonight er in which constituencies they will be voting and if I may give an illustration as the honourable member for Truro did er er as far as his European constituency is concerned er the European constituency of Derbyshire Ashfield will d be divided into three different directions as the result of this particular order in council if we pass it tonight. There will be a a a series of new constituencies created across the East Midlands. The electorate will expect to know who the candidates are in those er er particular constituencies. Indeed the political parties preparing for those elections are in the process of selecting the candidates er there will in fact be an extra constituency in the East Midlands as a result of this particular order in council er and indeed the political parties at some stage will have to select new candidates for the six extra seats across the united kingdom. That process is under way and the processes of political parties in choosing candidates are an important part of our democratic process. If that is the case that each of the political parties, as I assume is the case for er the Conservative party, I know it to be the case of the Labour party I assume the same is true for the Liberal Democrats and other parties represented in this house, that they undertake the very considerable organisational er er process of selecting candidates only to find a few weeks before June the ninth, that as a result of the difficulties that I've described as far as the French government attitude towards these elections is concerned, that er in fact we have to revert to the existing arrangements and that we cannot have these new er boundaries in place. That will cause astonishing confusion to the electorate. It will something which the government will seek er to blame on the French and therefore Mr Deputy Speaker I do think it important that the record is set straight er as far as the French government are concerned. The British government er not only went along with this agreement at the time of the Edinburgh summit, they positively endorsed this arrangement er as being something that they er strongly supported and urged upon other member states in the European community er and that I think is a relevant matter with respect er Mr Deputy Speaker, I I appreciate that er there are other issues relating to these er er constituencies that are of greater concern perhaps to er honourable and right honourable members but this question of who actually is to pay for any new building in the European parliament is something that I believe the government cannot avoid. I appreciate the minister's difficulty representing the Home Office with no specific responsibility for these matters as far as er er Europe is concerned er but nevertheless this is a matter that does affect the electorate and one that I think the house should take er notice of. I'm grateful Mr Deputy Speaker. Morgan. Thank you Mr Deputy Speaker. Erm I'm er rising to take the opportunity to sum up the debate er for those of us on this side of the house and to say that on this side of the house we do welcome these orders actually coming through, delayed though they are and er besmirched though they are by the usual examples of government incompetence in failing to send them to the scrutiny committee in the proper manner to allow the usual processes to take place but wi that's par for the course these days. I want to welcome obviously particularly er the order relating to Wales because it confers on Wales er one additional seat, giving us five altogether because of the rise in the Welsh population over the last ten years and that er although Wales was under represented under the previous erm er you know distribution of seats which gave us only four we will be slightly over represented when we have five because you simply can't have four and a half seats, it's got to be one or the other but since the Welsh population is continuing to rise very rapidly then it is likely that that will be put right. I mean the Welsh population in percentage terms is now rising more rapidly than that of England and therefore by the year two thousand and one when the next review would take place er we er will certainly fully occupy if you like, that fifth seat in terms of the average size because Welsh Euro constituencies were during the past ten years, very slightly larger on average than those in England and so er we are moving from under representation to slight over representation for a temporary period er simply because er you know Wales is regarded as indivisible for this purpose and that's why we welcomed this debate. I give way briefly to the honourable member. I'm grateful to the honourable member and listening very carefully to this argument. Obviously the integrity of Wales is very important to him otherwise he would p p presumably be prepared to accept that part of England could have gone with one of the new seats. Would he care to address the fact that because these orders are being taken separately for Wales and England it is not possible to make the quota applicable in the same way in the same parts of the United Kingdom. Wales is being given a quite different quota to England and because Cornwall is being included in England for this purpose we are being unfairly treated by Wales' being generously treated. Would the honourable member care to comment on that inequality? I I obviously Cornwall is a special case which we obviously as our Celtic cousins it is the only non-Anglo Saxon county in England and as a result we feel a very, very strong erm er almost a kind of Uncle erm Nephew relationship to Cornwall, whereas the Cornish are certainly not Welsh but they're certainly not Anglo Saxon English either. We have a great deal of sympathy er but whereas I don't think some of the ideas that have been floated tonight for a Cornwall and Gibraltar West seat er or erm any kind of link up between Cornwall and any tail end of a Welsh seat we don't think is practical and I think he's gotta solve this problem er within the confines of Cornwall being regarded as part of England if not Anglo Saxon. That's not a problem that I can actually deal with er but Wales certainly er you know takes the sort of interest in Europe that we have seen from most of the Conservative speakers er in trying to sum up this debate you have to refer to them er of not being able to show, there's a definite sort of anti European theme coming through from most of the speakers from the back benches who've chosen to take part in this debate tonight from the other side and it's difficulty to avoid summing up the debate without some reference to the points that they have made which is in complete contrast to the attitude that we have erm in Wales er towards Europe and that we are. Poor practices at the bank which the auditors were aware of for years, a crashing indictment er of the auditors. It did, if you look at that report er th th that the curry curry gold or whatever, curry report erm i i i it shows that B C C I actually provided loads of financial benefits to some of the auditors er these benefits included loans to two Price Waterhouse partnerships in the Caribbean er in addition it said there were serious questions concerning the acceptance of payment and possibly housing from B C C I and its affiliates by Price Waterhouse partners er the in Grand Caymans er and possible acceptance of sexual favours. The report is more interesting than by the member for South East Derbyshire er not that there's much sex in it but if er er i it's more interesting er sexual favours provided by B C C I officials to certain persons affiliated er with the firm. Now this is an appalling situation, er th the B C C I's books were certified by the auditors as a true and fair record from December nineteenth er December thirty first nineteen er eighty seven forward a and that meant that people had confidence in B C C I, here we're told that the auditors are giving it er a certificate of a a true and fair record er encouraging therefore people to in t to to invest and yet prior to nineteen eighty nine Price Waterhouse knew of gross irregularities er in B C C I's handling of loads, particularly the load to C C A H which was the holding company for First American er bank shares. All this was known to the auditors, they didn't spill the beans. Now why have we not had an inquiry which will bring out what happened in the case of B C C I so we can base proper and effective regulation er on that er in i in in in in inquiry. The government feels it can rely on er auditors to protect the interests of share holders and the creditors and the other stake holders but I have to tell the minister that that reliance which is now er strengthened by the regulations b by the er the order today has always proved er inadequate in the er in in the past er because poor auditing practices always get covered up, there's no way for anybody to know how bad or how good er the audit is as long as a company er survives and we haven't developed in this country, the proper institutional framework to regulate auditors er effectively and to actually make them er er accountable. Now and er I have to point out to minister this side of the house er actually proposed much stronger provisions on er detection of fraud er in at the the building societies act and the financial services act er in in er er er of eighty six er we have these orders er brought in far too late because the government is continuing to place reliance on an industry and a framework which has a history er of of failure. They can't beat the auditors on effective replacement for regulation. In the United States quite rightly, state inspectors visit and monitor banks er and that's the only effective way we're going to know what's er w what's going on. There should be such a requirement in Britain, instead of just relying that we are about these orders er on the o o on the er auditors er them that that that the the themselves. Er er er I mentioned er in an earlier interjection the fact that Price Waterhouse in this country er wouldn't give evidence and didn't provide information to Price Waterhouse partners er er i i in the United States er er the government I think, can only er deal with this by some effective regulation er of auditing er and by some er er effective er independent regulate. There needs to be er a banking commission to take these functions away from a Bank of England performed so poorly er and was shown to have done by the er b by the Bingham report. My own preference is for er er er er a securities next change commission, an independent commission as in the United States with a banking commission underneath it er an accountancy er commission underneath it, but an effective framework of independent regulators to whom the auditors can report er when they er wh wh when they found the they find fraud. My honourable friend from the front benches made the point about the gaps in er these regulations, they don't cover Lloyds, they don't cover pension schemes, pension funds they don't cover banks which are domiciled er in the er in in the United States but er we also have the point which I made in the interjection to the minister that unless there's a duty to detect fraud er er as well as report it, it's really doubtful if the auditors can perform er the function. We pointed out them from this side of the house er the local government's finance act does impose both duties. Now the audit industry was in favour of that at the time because it saw itself as able to get its fingers into local authority audit so they were prepared to accept that they could do it then, it's only now er when it's proposed on what's been their traditional prerogatives, they er er they audit of banks and private sector er er companies that they balk at the proposition and say ooh it's horrendous we can't do it. Well I have to tell the minister that the firms are advertising for detection services all the time, K P M G Peter Marwick advertising this, they will er investigate financial frauds and rectify and recover from them that requires specialised accounting skills, K P M G forensic accounting offers experience in the techniques of fraudsters and the procedures er they may have followed. Awareness of the indicators, the possible irregularities, the resources needed for a fast and accurate investigation, experience of the quality of evidence required to support a successful case and the expertise to assembly and present that evidence. We can assist in tracing funds and unravelling the most complex international cases. They can provide all that for a fee why can't they provide it as a compulsory necessary part er of the service,it wouldn't be more expensive the minister claimed, if you do a proper audit it can't be more expensive. Proper audit er is the effective way er to detect fraud and that needs to be at the at the er the re requirement er er that we impose er on and I, as I pointed out er at the moment the auditors themselves are not being effectively er regulated. Lord Justice er Bingham did say that the relationship between the client, the auditor and the supervisor er is an issue of policy which is more appropriate for decision by parliament than the accounting profession and yet er we're still subjecting that to control er by the auditing practices board, not a statutory body er er and it's already told us that it's going to impose passive requirement on auditors er in this very difficult area. Now passive requirements on auditors are just not adequate for the detection of fraud. The draught standard they've put forward states the duty to make a report direct to a regulator does not impose upon auditors a duty to carry out specific work, no specific work, don't do anything just go along. That's ludicrous, unless you do the work you can't make the report. No auditing practices in addition to those carried out in the normal case of auditing the financial statements are carried out. Auditors are not responsible for reporting on irregulated entities overall compliance with rules with which it is required to comply, that's unlike local government, nor are they required to conduct there work in such a way that there is reasonable certainty that they will discover breaches. They're not actually required er to go out er looking for things, just sit there be passive er a and it'll all come pouring in, that seems to be the er the . Fraud doesn't work that way, you don't get the fraudsters rushing in and saying here's the evidence Mr auditor, get me. It's all well concealed and unless the auditor has an obligation to actually hunt this down, the kind of white hunter er er of the British economy er then er it won't be detected and the passive approach to audit such as the er audit practices board is recommending is simply a recipe for further disasters er and further audit failures. Couple of final points er Madam Deputy Speaker, er the government should surely have clarified responsibility of auditors. Who are they actually responsible to? To whom do they owe a duty of care? It's no good just saying you can report fraud er to er t t to the regulator, they should also be responsible to the shareholders, the stake holders, everybody involved er in er er er a company er and in fact er they aren't they have really responsibility to no one except the directors er who appoint them, the company share holders are given very little information, the choice of auditors er is firmly in the director's director's hands, the depositors, the consumers, the employees er have no say er in the appointment of er auditors and more important the recent legal cases for instance and the Al Saudi Bank er er and Berg er sons er and company also decided that er auditors don't owe a duty of care er to individual shareholders, potential investors, the current or potential creditors er even though that information is supposed to be there to help markets understand what is happening to that committee and the government showed no indication that it wants to reverse these judgements, it should reverse them, there should be specific responsibilities attached to er auditors to give them a duty of care er so that we get the information er and er spend more widely and the share holders and the stake holders know what's going on er er er as well as er the bank or the financial er institution er itself. Now my honourable friend has already quoted er the presence the,o of the department of trade in this er er pointing out in er his book er where there's a will there's a corpse er er that er there shouldn't be a conflict of interest because accountancy firms shouldn't do other work. That should be a paramount objective er in financial institutions because D T I inquiries have indicated er that the work is less adequate er when er they're relying er on when a man is checking his own figures or those of a colleague, that was er er in at the roadships erm re report. There's a who er er a whole series of other reports, Bernhope and Fauder for instance, critical of er audit reports er report in in that context and I have to say to the minister er that none of the auditors criticised by D T I reports over the years have actually be disbarred from er from practice. Now what kind of a sanction is that er to make the auditors actually do the job properly. We need an effective independent regulator, not the mafia regulating mafia and saying it's quite understandable boy, we'll let you off this time which is what happens now er with the Institute of Chartered Accountants er as a recognised supervisory body er in this er in this particular field. We have to have er an effective control er and discipline er of auditors. The Secretary of State er told me er that the has been no occasion where criticism from a companies auditors by my department's inspectors in reports published since June nineteen seventy nine has led to an audit partner being excluded from membership of a professional accountancy body, er and no auditor criticised in D T I inspector's reports has been debarred from auditing as a result of information er in that report. So bearing in mind the government itself has never iss er initiated any criminal action against auditors criticised in D T I reports, there are no effective sanctions. Now for all those reasons madame speaker, this these orders er er today are inadequate, too little, too late, we can't vote against them, much as the the member who preceded me seemed inclined to vote against them and I wish that he had the g er the guts of 'is cu the courage of his convictions er he should vote against them, er we on this side are far more responsible er than that because to vote against them er might be an indication that we're as much in frau in favour of fraud as members on the other side of the house, er we're not in favour of fraud, we welcome any progress to detection of fraud, even progress that we asked for five eight years ago when the relevant legislation was passed. For that reason we have to welcome er the er th th the orders, but they're just not good enough. Here, here. Mr John Greenway. Er well Madam Deputy Speaker I think erm that the last half an hour shown that er the quality of debate in this house er remains extremely high and that even when you have an issue which on the face of it looks to be as dry as dust er that er there are some honourable members who will pick an argument er when perhaps er on the face of it there ought not to be much of an argument er I can't erm I can't say that erm I agreed with much of what erm the honourable member for Great Grimsby said er he seemed to imply er quite early on his er speech that most of the City of London er was collapsing in a sea of sleaze and er er other other goings on which are extremely er to be regretted but erm I think we ought to er remind him er that erm, you know, all all of these four orders er followed the Bingham inquiry into er what happened at B C C I which was not a British bank, was an international bank based erm overseas and I think I'm right in saying this and I'm sure my honourable friend the minister will confirm when he winds up er this is the first er such difficulty er that we've experienced for a great length of time. Er, now the the point I really want to refer to is erm just what role an auditor ought to play er in the er insurance and financial service industry in looking at particular firms, erm I have several interests which the honourable member for Edinburgh central knows about, er the one that I think is relevant er to tonight is that I am an elected member of the insurance brokers registration council and the way that erm the way that we regulate insurance brokers erm is laid down by statute but it does actually demonstrate the advantage, the benefit of erm of having a statutory requirement for audit and for er a proper oversight of what then follows in terms of the way that the regulator reacts to what the auditor may say. The purpose of of these four orders, which I must say I greatly welcome, it is one of the, the most beneficial things to come out of the B C C I er disaster er and er i if I can say in in effectively in answer to to everything the honourable gentleman for Great Grimsby said and he and I have debated on many occasions, if fact usually on the television not on the floor of the house, but er an an an an because of it for not quite so long either, er but erm th the point I would make to his is that really what he was saying was th that what went wrong with B C C I is that Price Waterhouse knew there was fraud and didn't say so and that wha what Lord Justice Bingham pointed out was that there is a clear conflict of interest between the interest of the client who they work for and the public interest and that what needed, what was needed was some amendment to the banking act to clarify that and that is precisely what er this order actually does and you can't really er Madam Deputy Speaker, expect anyone to really seriously criticise the government when in actual fact not only have they come up with the regulation to deal with that but they've also gone further and said we will apply this to financial services and to building societies and to insurance companies as well, just to be absolutely sure. Now I would be the first to admit that I I'm not a judge as accountant, I'm an insurance broker er and erm I don't understand er and I'm not aware of all of the rules and regulations that affect accountants er and affect the way audits are carried out,b but I must say I was a bit surprised t to hear during the debate, er that that was really what the problem was, the problem with B C C I was this conflict of interest, that fraud was known and it was not declared er and er I think that these er these regulations should now make that considerably er more clear. The point I I simply wanted to to make which is why I I sat through the debate, erm is the honourable member for Edinburgh Central er in his er speech er which I I must say I did expect, called for stronger regulations, er we had the argument the other week about whether there should be statutory regulations or whether we should make er the er self regulation system that we have with financial services industries work. Erm, I take the view that we ought to try and make the existing arrangements work and we are fast approaching a very key point er in that process erm I understand that on Thursday, er securities and investments board, the board will consider the er P I A, proposed P I A prospectus and that er within a week or so we shall all be able to to read it and to look at it erm and the key point, which really is arises out of what we're discussing tonight, the key point is what regulatory framework should the P I A place on intermediaries and on er life assurance companies, pension funds, financial advisors generally er in order to ensure that the public interest is protected and that if there are potential frauds erm such as the Levitt case er that we talked about earlier and I think the honourable member in sort of by implication in terms of er community service, er punishments that he referred to, er had also that in mind, er just what should we do to ensure that if there is malpractice and fraud, it's picked up very, very quickly. Certainly this order on financial services, helps because it makes absolutely clear that if an auditor sees malpractice and potential fraud he has an obligation and a duty to report it straight away to the regul regulator, but that will help the process. But there will as I my honourable friend knows, there will be quite an argument when we see the prospectus and I haven't had the priv the privilege of seeing it erm although I've had the opportunity to discuss er its contents with th with the er chairman of the P I A er er and the Chief Executive. Er it is important I think, that we don't er have too many regulations, that's why I have some sympathy for what my honourable friend, the member for South Hamms, was saying, that we don't er regulate to the point where firms just go out of business and give up, that it's too expensive and it's too burdensome. But that we get a balance right between the amount of regulations an and the cost of it but that it is in a sense, effective and and the plea I would make to my honourable friend when he considers this P I A prospectus and what should be done and wh to what extent the government feels it should support it, is that what we actually want is not a specific requirement that says you've got to have this much, that much capital erm and so on, but that there is a function, there is a regular audit trail, there is a a regular, annual look at the figures, the accounts of all these intermediaries, er and firms where the difficulty has been er in the past. Because I I I've said this to him before on on the floor of the house, that is what we are required to do in the insurance brokers registration council for all insurance broking firms, that is what parliament required in the insurance brokers registration act and it is not an onerous requirement on firms, it is not excessively expensive so it would meet I believe, any cost compliance test er that erm the er the D T I might wish to to insist be carried out. What it does is it means that there is a proper look each year at the finances of each individual firm er and er if there are things which are wrong, they are reported straight away and that really I think is the lesser of all of this with B C C I, er that er where things are not all they should be that they are dealt with and they are reported quickly and these orders,Madam Deputy Speaker, go a long way to helping to ensure that and for that reason I believe the house should warmly welcome them. Mr Anthony Nelson. Madam deputy speaker. This has been a curiously old fashioned debate in some ways with one hou side of the house calling for more regulation and the other side of the house calling for less regulation and my honourable mem , my honourable friend the member for South Hamms er did say eloquently again this evening. I can say to my honourable friend, the member for Rydale who takes such a close interest and is so well informed er on these matters, er I'm very grateful to him for the welcome he's given for the orders here, he's absolutely right to say that we have gone beyond er what restrictive called for by Bingham, we have extended it to other sectors in the financial we welcomed the honourable gentleman from Edinburgh Central that these er orders are in some way timid, they are what was called for by the treasury select committee, they are what was proposed er by Bingham and we have er introduced them er here tonight. I say to my honourable friend as far as the P I A's concerned he will have an early opportunity er to consider er the prospectus on that which is indeed being published er and I take very seriously the point he makes about adequate monitoring procedures and the need for an audit trail. I think that is a central criterion to attach the effectiveness of self regulating organisations if the the methodical nature of their monitoring er a and the way that that is done and I hope all concerned will consider these matters carefully. My honourable friend the member for er South Hamms, Madam Deputy Speaker, er gave I thought a a an amusing but perceptive speech about the growth of deregulation, indeed some were saying that deregulation er is in fact the fastest growing part of bureaucracy in Whitehall and there have been calls to deregulate the deregulators er, he is of course quite right that Parkinson's theory can extend in this area and one can find that deregulation acquires a life and momentum erm of its own. But the underlying purpose, that of reducing unnecessary bureaucracy, stripping away the red tape which hinders enterprise and good er governance in this country, is something that the government is very committed to and we intend to promulgate that doctrine throughout all the areas and that of course is being taken forward in legislation. As far as er the honourable gentleman for Edinburgh Central is concerned, he said there was a case for a wider inquiry into the auditing o of companies, well that is not something specifically called for er by Bingham although I acknowledge that a case can be made for that but I think we want to be extremely careful before extending that in the way that he and the honourable member for Great Grimsby proposed beyond the direct er responsibility to the members or the owners of the company. It must be right for auditors to audit and for regulators to regulate and I do not think that it helps the argument for there to be an overlap in responsibilities and in some way, as I say, to turn auditors into snoopers and narks er er and make more supine one's er regulators. So I I I don't think that there's a case for er widening the er widened inquiry into the auditing of companies. He said there was a case for extending the duty of care of auditors beyond members but this again was something that Bingham didn't necessary find er necessary as a result of his inquiry into B C C I. He asked about what material significance meant. That of course is very much set out in the guidelines of the er sta er statement on auditing er standards. He asked about Lloyds, he is quite right that that is not covered er by these orders but it is the case that it is a condition of the appointment of ordered, er of auditors into syndicates er that they shall report, they have a duty er to report er where these situations arise. Er, Mr Deputy Speaker I don't have time to deal with the other points but if I've missed anything in particular I will write to honourable members concerned. Can I just finally say that the whole import of the orders is to ensure that they look at the criteria of authorisation, they are concerned with the authorisation of firms which take public deposits and investments and when that is brought into question, when there is evidence to suggest that those criteria are not being adequately med it must be right to impose a non costly duty on the auditors to bring that about, that is what these orders do tonight, I think they're an extremely welcome addition to the stable of measures of regulation and they will improve materially depositor protection. Motion number four the question is the motion on the order paper,say aye. Aye. no. I think the ayes have it, the ayes have it. The leader of the house will put amendments five to seven informally. Question is the motions on the order papers,say Aye. Aye no, I think the ayes have it, the ayes have it. We then move to motion number eight Mr secretary Redwood to move it. Mr Deputy Speaker I beg to move that the local government finance report Wales nineteen ninety four to ninety five House of Commons paper number one six eight, which was laid before this house on the thirty first of January, be approved. This report sets out my decisions on the local government revenue settlement for nineteen ninety four five. I understand it will be convenient to discuss at the same time the next motion on the order paper that the local government finance amendment report Wales nineteen ninety three, ninety four, House of er in i in in in in inquiry. The government feels this house on the thirty, thirty first of January be approved. This latter one puts right a mistake in the description of the basis for distributing the distributable amount for ninety three four which was approved by the house on the eighth of February nineteen ninety three. I can assure the house that the amendment in this document does not affect the money authorities should received. Mr Deputy Speaker, I announced my provisional settlement proposals to the house on the thirtieth of November last. I have given careful consideration to the representations I have received on the level of settlement and the views that the local authority associations in coming to my final decisions. I believe that my provisional proposals remain appropriate. I propose to set total standard spending for nineteen ninety four, ninety five at two thousand seven hundred and four point eight million pounds. This includes the sum of eighty six million for care in the community, it is an increase of four point two percent or over one hundred million pounds extra cash compared with nineteen ninety three, ninety four. I thank the Secretary of State for giving way, he he did say that erm er the figures in these report were in a sense provisional at the end of last year, erm but that he feels erm, with the passing of time, nothing has happened to change his view. Would he tell us then what he believes the impact of the er pay settlements will have on the spending he's allowed local authorities because it seems to me there must either be a cut in staff er and a cut in services if they're gonna keep within the the money that he made available at the time when he wasn't aware of these settlements. Mr Deputy Speaker I I'm grateful to the honourable gentleman for posing the central question and I hope in the course of my remarks I will satisfy the house, if not all Labour members, that the settlement proposals are at is all to the good and delivered by councils throughout Wales and that they offer enough money er to avoid sacking essential staff, certainly the offer enough money to avoid sacking any teacher who is needed in the classroom. I don't want to see that happen, I trust members of the house don't wish to see it happen. It is up to local authorities, but I believe the extra grant, the extra spending permission, means that a good quality education can be delivered to children in Wales er without it in any way being jeopardised by these proposals and I would illustrate later on in my speech that local government does have considerable flexibility to spend wisely and well and it has resources at its disposal to do a good job. I give way. Secretary of State for giving way, but when he made his proni provisional announcement on the er on the total S S A for Wales, was he aware that the er the various er salary review bodies would be bringing in a er a recommendation which was almost twice the current rate of inflation? Mr Deputy Speaker, no I did not know the exact amount of the recommendation but I of course assumed there was likely to be some pay increase and I have made an increase in grant which I am just about to explain to the house which will go some way to meet the requirements of local authorities and there are other assets and resources they have er which I will illustrate later on in my speech. I propose to provide two thousand four hundred and nineteen point two million pounds in central government support towards this spending, an increase of three point three percent on nineteen ninety three, ninety four. So honourable members opposite will see that that is a good rate of increase compared with the current rate of inflation. The support package will comprise seventeen hundred and forty point one million pounds in revenue support grant. Four hundred and sixty four million in distributable, non-domestic rates and two hundred and fifteen point one million pounds in other revenue grants. Over eighty nine pounds in every one hundred pounds of Welsh local authority expenditure on revenue account will be funded by central government support. This generous level means that Welsh council tax payers benefit from substantially lowered levels of tax than their English counterparts. Welsh tax payers should continue to benefit from relatively low levels of tax next year, assuming sensible budgeting decisions. The revenue settlement is matched by the substantial local government capital settlement for ninety four five which I announced on the thirtieth of November. This totals five hundred and three million pounds in capital grants and crediting approvals, a four percent increase on nineteen ninety three, ninety four. It means welcome permissions to improve capital stock in housing, education and other crucial local government service areas. The Welsh non-domestic rate poundage or the business rate, for nineteen ninety four, ninety five, will increase by one point eight percent in line with inflation to forty four point eight pence. This modest increase, coupled with transitional arrangements announced in the budget, will be of considerable benefit to business. About twenty thousand business rate payers who face the largest increases following the nineteen ninety revaluation, will benefit by five point three million pounds from the transitional changes. This Mr Deputy Speaker, is a decent settlement for local government in Wales. It gives local authorities an additional one hundred million pounds to spend when the low level of inflation is helping them keep down the cost of providing their services. The eighty six million pounds I am providing for care in the community is an increase of almost fifty million pounds on nineteen build on the introduction of the service in ninety three, ninety four year. Since the nineteen ninety to ninety one settlement, revenue resources for local authorities have increased by almost five hundred and thirty million pounds or twenty seven percent. My provisional settlement proposals were met by some criticisms that they could lead to substantial increases in council tax levels, increases as high as fifteen percent were suggested. Most local authorities have yet to set their budgets but I am glad to report to the house the press reports indicate a far more modest level of increase. Clwyd county council and Cardiff city council are reported to be proposing a reduction in their council taxes. South Glamorgan county council and the Vale of Glamorgan borough council are reported to be planning increases limited to three percent or below. Mr Deputy Speaker it shows it can be done and I hope others will look after the interests of their tax payers as well. On December the fourteenth I announced my provisional capping criteria. I will give careful consideration to local authority budgets and make my capping decisions in the light of all the information available to me when I've received it. I should like i if I may Mr Deputy Speaker, to commend Welsh billing authorities for their better than expected performance in collecting the council tax. They estimate an overall surplus on collection funds, of seventeen point six million as at the thirty first of March nineteen ninety four. This translates into an average eighteen pounds reduction in council tax for a band E dwelling which could be passed on to council tax payers in their ninety four, ninety five bills or of course allows them more flexibility in their general financial planning. Local councillors have considerable flexibility in their budgeting. Sums of money I am describing tonight are large, revenue and capital spending combined, of over three thousand million pounds is many times the amount spent by quangos in Wales outside the health service and the grant represents a large share of my total budget for Wales and I hope members opposite are not suggesting I should cut spending on health, that is a vital service which I thought they supported as well. Flexibility is increased by the payment of rate support grant and distributable non-domestic rates as a block grant. It is then for local authorities to decide how to spend the money their given in line with their priorities and their local needs. Council can raise income through fees and charges, they have balances which they can choose to spend or retain,they have assets which they can use for their service provision or they can sell to raise capital. They have large administrations which they should always be looking to make more effective and in an area like education, there are surplus faces to be removed, energy to be used more efficiently and services to be contracted out if this can provide better value for local tax payers. I apologise for interrupting him. I wonder, he's no doubt aware of the quite serious problems facing the South Wales police and the funding of the local authorities of the police. Is there any hope that he as Secretary of State along with the Home Office minister, might get round a table with South Wales police to sort the problems out because on the ground the seriousness is about the growing problems of crime and law and in fact the lack of in fact, policeman on the beat. So I hope he will be able to accept this offer or request on behalf of many, many constituents of mine and I'm sure of others too. Mr Deputy Speaker I'm just about to come on the South Wales police but I will answer the point directly, er I and my honourable friend the parliamentary secretary are always willing to discuss with local government, matters relating to local government finance and we have done so over the months leading up to this settlement and my honourable and right honourable friends in the Home Office are always willing to discuss matters on the police er where they are important and warrant a ministerial meeting and that again has happened recently with the Home Office min minister discussing this very issue. The last thing I want to see is local authorities skimping on the police. The budget problems of the South Wales police have been much in the news. Recently published audit commission profiles show that the South Wales police expenditure per head of population is above average for comparable forces and more police are on duty than for similar forces. I trust that local authorities and the police authorities will make sensible decisions about future services. I think most of the issues that have been raised tonight already, are ones for the police authority and I hope they will get on with their job. Where necessary police stations should be kept open and enough policemen should be made available for beat duties and for detection work, I give way. Wherever blame might lie as regards the situation with the South Wales constabulary at the present time, surely it would be madness to merge Gwent police force with the South Wales police force at this unfortunate time because Gwent has a very, very good record and we want it to stay like that. Er Mr Deputy Speaker I I will make sure that the Home Office sees the transcript of this debate and I have noted the report the honour the matter the honourable gentleman has raised. Mr Deputy Speaker the last thing also that I wish to see is local authorities . I'm most grateful to my right honourable friend er for giving way. Would he not agree er that the fact that erm the Home Office plan to give allow for seven million pounds extra er for the police budget in W in Wales whereas in actual fact local government has chosen er to to give only two point two million er through the police budget er is a disgrace and reflects very badly on the running of the police authority and on the chairmanship of that committee. Mr Deputy Speaker my honourable friend is right that the allocation of budgets is a matter for the local authority and that is a matter for public debate er in the council chamber. Thank you. of state therefore explain why in England it's prof possible to get a straight answer from the Secretary of State with the figures of the S S A for the last five years, for this year and for next year and it's not possible to get that for Wales either from the Home Secretary or from the honourable gentl right honourable gentleman. Mr Deputy Speaker, as the honourable members knows, our S S A calculations are on slightly different basis from England as we set out in this report and we do believe that local authorities should have the maximum flexibility to make their own decisions and it is therefore a matter for local debate. Whether they value their police service enough or not and whether it needs more money or not to do a good job or whether the authorities should take a look at how it is being run. But Mr Deputy Speaker I. I I take it that honourable gentle right honourable gentleman is making an implicit criticism of his colleague the Secretary of State of the environment er, er and the Home Secretary who has responsibility can produce figures for England. He cannot produce them for Wales, why is that? It's surely because the right honourable gentleman is not providing the money to Welsh local authorities. Here, here. Mr Deputy Speaker,tha that was a fatuous point. I've already answered the underlying question, I do believe that they should have the maximum discretion and then they should be answerable for their decisions to their local electors who want a good police service and want a good education service and there is money there for them to do it if that is their wish. For the last thing I wish to see alongside skimping on the police is local authorities reducing the number of teachers where they are needed to teach pupils. Because I am delighted to report that education standards in Wales have been rising over the last few years following the introduction of the national curriculum and our other reforms. But as I said in a speech recently, we have a lot further to go, more progress to make and that is very much at the top of my agenda of, the agenda of my right honourable friend the education minister. Local authorities in Wales have reduced the level of rent arrears by over ten percent between nineteen ninety, ninety one and ninety two ninety three but there is more progress to be made. Since nineteen eighty seven the number of vacant local authority dwellings has also fallen and these are the cuts I do want, cuts in the number of empty houses, cuts in the rent arrears, cuts in the tax arrears so that the money is there to spend on the services that people want. I am pleased to report that care in the community has in general, been successfully introduced. It is a good example of a major service being given to local government so that local rather than national democracy can determine the details of its future and how it flies in the face of the criticisms of the party opposite, that we're always taking important things away from local government. Here is one of the fastest growing services in the public sector over the decade to come and we've entrusted local government with it. I give way. I'm very grateful, I'm very grateful to the Secretary of State. Could he just make sure though that in his plans by defining community care and by by that I mean social care as opposed to health care, in a certain way. What he might be doing is to actually seek to increase the proportion of our very vulnerable population into the means testing category and that what he's got to watch is that he doesn't end up in a position whereby defining health care in one way and social care very carefully. Health care will then be denied its proper role and that is clearly seen in the discharge of elderly people into the community and a point he knows well because he's heard it from me before, without the necessary disabled facilities being in place for those elderly people and it is his department that decided to put the disabled facilities grant in the basic credit allowance to compete against over local authority priorities in that section. Why doesn't he put it back into the special credit allowance? Mr Deputy Speaker, members opposite speak with forked tongues. They first of all say they want local government to be more responsible, to be more trusted, to have more freedom, I then give them that freedom and then they complain that I'm not telling local government what to do and I don't intend to lay down every detail of what they should do. I, like the honourable member, happen to believe the point he's made is right, that this should be a high priority, the money is there for local government to do it, I've explicitly recognised the needs of the disabled in my settlement for next year by increasing it substantially and I hope local government will respond and do the decent thing. I want to see elderly people looked after well and if they can be looked after at home all well and good but of course they need the facilities. I give. I I'm very grateful to the Secretary of State, erm is he aware that increasingly over this winter there have been examples of homes for the elderly and particularly nursing homes in the private sector without casting a valued judgement on the role of the private sector, er homes that are finding difficulty in the filling the beds because of policy that is being pursued in care in the community. Does he realise that some of these homes er are perhaps have only half their beds full which means that there are vulnerable people there, uncertain as to whether their home, their only home is going to remain er in existence. Can he give some assurances that there will be coherent planning to make sure that there are no vulnerable people er affected in this way, in the transition over to care in the community? Mr Deputy Speaker that's exactly what the authorities are asked to make sure about and of course they must have sensible plans so that there are always beds and facilities for those who need them, but in a way it's a success of care in the community that that more elderly people are being looked after in their own homes and so we've arrested the very rapid growth in permanent residential places which was occurring before the policy was introduced er, as we now see, despite some gloomy forewarning, local authorities have in general managed well in the first year of their responsibilities, they've examined thousands of cases and many people have been helped to make decisions about their own futures. Many are able to continue living as they wish in their own homes. This has meant a fall in the demand for residential care which had been increasing rapidly in previous years and it is the duty of the relevant authorities to plan future provision er so that everything will work smoothly for those most in need. I trust local authorities will respond positively to this settlement. I believe in good local government. I believe that councils have an important role to play. I am disturbed if I learn of cases of alleges impropriety or irregularity in their financial performance or in their accounting. I trust all parties in this house will unite, not only in believing in local government but in agreeing that local government should set and maintain the highest possible standards of conduct when spending the very substantial sums of money parliament votes to it. This settlement Mr Deputy Speaker, is a large settlement. It is a good settlement in an area of low inflation. It gives local government in Wales the money it needs to provide high quality services and to get on with the job. It need not lead to high tax increases, nor to the redundancy of crucial workers. Well run councils will flourish as a result of this settlement and I offer them every encouragement to do so. Mr Deputy Speaker I commend it to the house. Question is the motion on the order paper, Mr Ron Davies. Here, here. Thank you very much Mr Deputy Speaker. I think we've seen a a new model Secretary of State this evening. He er came to the despatch box and he talked about conciliation. He said that he had taken into account the views of local authorities put to him since he met them last year, he might have taken in to account of course, we didn't accept any of the er er observations. He commended er local authorities, he commended Labour controlled local authorities for their collection rate of the council tax and for their collection rate of rents. He actually praised the value of democratic local government and he compared that with his own quango state. It really is er a new model Secretary of State although the fact of the matter is Mr Deputy Speaker, that er his reality of course is quite different from his and the reality is that this is a poor settlement for local government in Wales and it's been roundly condemned, not least by the county councils, who is the largest employers in Wales will have to face the considerable burden imposed on them by the government's acceptance of the public sector er review body recommendations but without the additional cash to meet those awards and what this settlement er does represent Mr Deputy Speaker is a further step along the road that we've been travelling since nineteen seventy nine. The financing of local government is er again circumscribed, local government's ability to respond to the needs of the community it serves as it and its electors deem appropriate is being curtailed yet again and of course local government is losing its independence to central government and this centralising tendency which this settlement further represents is one of the most pernicious and corrosive characteristics of the modern Conservative party. It won't be lost on anyone concerned with the application of this settlement that despite the Secretary of State's earlier remarks as the democratically controlled public sector, represented by local government, faces further cuts. The undemocratic sector represented by the one hundred and eleven Welsh quangos has seen budget increases. In the case of the major bodies the D B R W, the W G A and the C B D C of over eight percent. I don't think either, given the succession of scandals and the aura of sleaze hanging over the Secretary of State's quango sector that anyone would deny that in terms of value for money and financial probity, direct democratic control is a far better watchdog than the financial control systems of the Welsh office. Here, here. The total standard spending of two thousand seven hundred and five million pounds is one hundred and five million pounds above the settlement for the current financial year. The Secretary of State has argued that this is nearly a four percent increase. In the stricter sense it is nearly a four percent increase but that statistic itself is absolutely meaningless. In the current financial year budgets what authorities would have spend in delivering services, not what the Welsh office consider they should spend, were two thousand six hundred and eighty eight million pounds and against that the next years settlement which we're debating tonight, represents only a point six percent increase. Even that is not itself a true reflection of reality. The current settlement, as the Secretary of State indicated, includes provision for community care to the tune of eight six million pounds. That itself is some forty million pounds below the association of Welsh counties assessment of what is actually needed to meet the needs of the community and it is in any event not available for general spending. So if that figure is removed from the spending total the current increase is only two point three percent above the settlement for nineteen ninety three, ninety four and being twenty eight million pounds, or one percent, below the current years budgets actually represents a four percent real terms reduction and that is a measure of the cuts which the government this year wishes to force on local government. Under any circumstances this would be difficult enough but this year Welsh local government has to suffer the commu the cumulative burden of previous years cuts. It also has to struggle with the social and economic consequences of the recession vested on the country by central government and of course it is expected this year to meet the costs of what is an unwanted and will be a costly and unsatisfactory reorganisation of local government. Predictably, while the government with one hand is distorting their expenditure and creating unnecessary expense, it is with the other reducing the discretion available to councils to raise their own resources. The capping limits, unfair and arbitrary as they are, are again imposing a straight jacket. All Welsh counties for instance are limited to increasing their budgets of one point seven on point seven five percent over nineteen ninety three, ninety four are as the cities of Cardiff and Swansea and the borough of Newport and it is this cap of one point seven percent as my honourable friend for Cardiff South and Penarth has pointed out, which is at the route of the funding problems of the South Wales police authority area. At the same time yes I I'll happily give way to the honourable gentleman. Specific point of the South Wales police authority's difficulties, would he not say that at least they're partly due to the police authority believing that it was going to be er underspending in the current year and being out in its calculations by about two million pounds, wouldn't you think that that was at least a factor? Well I I think that the honourable gentleman really must accept that er coming from a party which is er in office in er in the Welsh office and has er two hundred million, two hundred and eight million pounds I think unaccounted for last year, it really ill becomes him er to lecture, to lecture anybody. The fact of the matter is that er the fact of the matter is that there has been er a c cumulative problem of er of expenditure in the South Wales police authority area stemming back to nineteen eighty eight and they have faced an under funding of thirty eight million pounds since that time. They've had er enormous difficulties and er the honourable gentleman will er know that the South Wales police authority committee, its officers and its Chief Constable have er visited parliament er to put their case to members representing the South Wales police authority area and indeed to er Earl Ferrers the minister er responsible for the police and they certainly haven't had any er criticism made of them by his own government and if er he believes that there is a criticism I would suggest that he takes a leaf out of the book of his er, his right honourable friend the Secretary of State and refers the matter so that it can be properly audited and er I think the honourable gentleman knows that when that is done he will see that there is no blame attached whatsoever to the members or the officers of the police authority. But I will give way if he wants to develop his point further. Is the honourable gentleman unaware that the district auditor has in fact indicated that there is a total lack of accountability or any sort of proper financial control in the police authority. Is he as the shadow spokesman for Wales, unaware of that? The er the honourable gentleman might well have seen a copy of the er the provisional report which has been prepared but that provisional report is er the same basis as the report er which was presented to er Westminster city council er and then we weren't talking er a difficulty of er two million pounds created, created as a direct result of government under funding of the police authority there,we were talking about the expropriation of millions of pounds to line the pockets and to further the political interests of his party and I did notice the honourable gentleman er vociferous in his condemnation of Westminster city council or any of the other tory controlled city councils. But of course, of course is if there is any evidence whatsoever er of financial mismanagement in the police authority it is a matter which has to be properly investigated. It has to be the subject of a proper report er by the er audit commission, but the district auditor and if they find that there has been er er wrong doing, if they find that there has been any er wilful neglect or if they find there has been any er unacceptable er maladministration then I will certainly join with the er the Secretary of State in condemning that. But I of course have the advantage of being one who condemns that degree of maladministration whether it applies in the democratic sector or in the quango sector and unfortunately, unfortunately despite all the corruption, I I'll give way to the honourable gentleman if I could just er finish the point I'm making, unfortunately despite all the corruption and all the mismanagement and all the fraud for which the Secretary of State is personally responsible as Secretary of State. I'm going to ask Professor Lock if he would like to open on this er this matter and proceed policy to major exceptions etcetera. How does that strike you? I was expecting a chance to get my papers organized. It's alright alright. Thank you sir. The erm I think the best way to er start on this er. Sorry, David Lock. The best way to start on this dis section of this discussion may be to erm express the observation that the county council and at least one of the local authorities which is Harrogate, erm are already engaged in have been engaged in for some time a very positive erm activity to try and attract to the county inward investment predicament that the economic development unit of the county council, the economic development of at of at least the one local authority that I have named and erm prospective developers such I'm representing today, share common predicament, is that the existing structure plan constructs some obstructions, erects some obstructions to the attraction of inward investment into the county. Existing structure plan in short is erm set out in such a way that it pos positively discourages the accommodation of inward investment on a large scale. It is in the shared interest of of the parties I'm describing that this county should be able to attract and accommodate er inward investment of strategic significance to help the people of this county find the due employment that they need. The difficulty we all share is how can one construct a planning framework which allows for strategically significant inward investment to be accommodated without declaring an open season of speculative proposals from developers and uncertainty at the local level up and down the county. As you've seen from the erm discussion paper that we submitted sir, it's our feeling that the most helpful way to proceed might be to add a new policy to the alteration. Or alternatively adapt Policy I five to allow for a strategic erm site or sites to be brought forward by local planning authorities in the course of their local plan work. But clearly some way must be found to prevent the open house that is all our concern to safeguard the amenity and character of the county. Looking through our own experience in other parts of Britain and having read some of the submissions of erm others on this subject, we reached the conclusion that the most helpful thing to do might be to have a policy which was criteria based. And to set criteria for this strategic site exception policy which we feel should be added to the plan, to set this criteria in such a way that it would so point to the local authorities in the making of their local plans but it was clear that the policy did not provide a speculative opportunity for everybody any landowner throughout the county. The criteria that we have suggested in the paper we've put in for for the discussion session stems from detailed observation and experience of what inward investment of the strategically significant kind might be looking for. One of its most distinguished distinctive characteristics is the size of site which we know from experience which the county Harrogate Borough and ourselves at least have already here can be the order of magnitude of fifty hectares. Now almost by definition it's very very unlikely in this county that a site of that size development would be found within a built-up area. But size is the first criteria it seems to me that one should be looking at. On location where what criteria might be used to guide location, I've said it's most unlikely to be found in a built-up area, but clearly close to good communications networks is important and must be within a reasonably short travel time of the national highway network. And I'll volunteer suggested in for me in the paper as a criterion that it also ideally should in my opinion have a the potential for railway connection given the thrust of policy a decade two decades ahead of us. The next issue is that we know that these prospective inward investors are likely to be looking for a site in reasonably attractive setting. This is very difficult because it means er it is a potential threat as it were to the countryside of the county. So we're suggestion criterion which make it quite clear that such a strategic site should not under any circumstances be located in the national parks, areas of outstanding natural beauty, heritage coast, greenbelt and other specially designated areas of countryside protection. Another characteristic of the inward investors that two authorities and ourselves have had experience of is that it's likely that the user or users will want to have reasonably clean air, good water and the ability to work twenty four hours. Now that again suggests for this strategic type of inward investment a location away from existing built-up areas. On the one hand for environmental reasons, for their environmental reasons I should say, and on the other hand so as not to come as a nuisance to residents of existing communities. Another safeguard that it seems to me that any such policy should have should be that development of the site must be possible without breaching reasonable and appropriate environmental standards. So that in itself it must not create er air pollution or water pollution and so on. And the last aspect of this sir is if you were to erm have a strategic site policy which as I was alluded to in my opening remarks, really is a chance for the planning system to catch up with what is actually happening in this county. An enabling framework at strategic level to allow inward investment to be attracted. If you have such a policy if you were to have criteria of the kind I'm alluded to erm does that still leave it too open in North Yorkshire, might it still be too wide too many erm er opportunities might meet locations might meet these criteria. And on this sir I, the way the discussion's been going over the last couple of days, erm I would like to point you at the experience of the Nottinghamshire structure plan which I've got direct personal experience, where there the panel was persuaded to commend locations that isn't right for structure plan but was a felt able to erm name a district or district council in whose area such a strategic site might be located. And I offer that as a idea for discussion. Policies which no doubt David erm Allenby will explain later of Harrogate would suggest that Harrogate Borough is one in this county that feels it could accommodate a strategic site. There may be others, I'm guessing, presume that er Mr Hesel Mr Heselton is looking as though he might be welcoming of a strategic site given half a chance. The point I'm trying to get at sir is that erm it is none of it is in none of our interests, either the planning authorities or even of the developers, that if we were to erm find a strategic sites policy appropriate for this alteration, it's in none of our interests that it should be confusing to the public or to the development industry as to how rare a thing this should be and how tightly directed it should be in geographical terms. Criteria I've su criteria I've suggested narrows the geography pretty precisely but if you felt the need, the local authorities felt the need, for even further protection it does seem to me from my own experience of the Nottinghamshire precedent it is possible if if you felt so inclined and the county was to agree you could narrow it even further by naming one or two erm local authorities such a site erm should be discovered. Now that sets the general scene sir. What I haven't done and I ought to because of the erm the way that this discussion has to unfold, I ought to say that pure few sentences about why should there be a strategic sites policy at all and erm I ought to put that on the record although it's pretty well trailed in all the paper work. And it it goes like this that the economy of North Yorkshire generally and of some of its districts in particular has reached the point where it is not possible from internally generated growth to provide er the jobs that the residents . It is therefore necessary Q E D for this county to be able to attract if it can some of the footloose investment which is available in Britain and er generally in Europe. To attract that inward investment to provide local jobs it's necessary for North Yorkshire to have one or more sites which are as available and as attractive as competing locations. I've described some of the characteristics in those sites. Now this aspect of competition is inescapable. In a planners ideal world where we might have a wholly directed economy competition would not be relevant but I'm afraid the reality is we have to compete in North Yorkshire with other counties in er this region and with other regions in Britain with other countries in the European Union and with other countries in the world. And what we have found that is the county, Harrogate certainly and ourselves from direct experience this last two years, is that one of the features, we have an attractive county to such inward investors, its its environment, its people, its setting, its air and everything else is good, but one of the features that we have so far been unable to offer is a planning framework which means that the marketing authority can deliver, guarantee delivery of the planning consent that would make it happen. As a result of that inability to guarantee a planning erm approval er this county has this county has lost one major inward investor within the last eighteen months already, referred to by name in the documentation that is Kimberley Clarke. Who were extremely keen to locate in this county, everything was right for them, Mr Allenby's borough had the site, my clients had the site should I say, and erm but we lost it to Humberside because it was not possible for either Harrogate or ourselves to look them in the eye and say yes we can guarantee planning consent. There happens to be another current live inquiry of a Germany car manufacturer. That may be part of some bigger game going on about busting unions in Germany, we're not green about that, but again the same question arises in the interrogation. The people are right, the location is right, the situation is right but can you guarantee planning consent. And under the present present planning framework it is difficult for us to do. So for all those reasons sir there does seem to me to be erm the case for a policy which would allow this exception to erm attract to North Yorkshire inward investment of this strategically important kind. And as I said earlier on is how the key to this is how to construct such a policy that would protect the interests of the county in a general environmental sense, give local authorities the freedom in their local plans to set their stall out if that is what they want to do and er whilst avoiding provoking a rash of speculative developments erm er all over the place. I believe that a criteria based policy might the best way forward for that. Thank you. Thank you. Can I ask you Professor Lock to say a little about what you consider the housing implications of such a policy might be? Yes. And Sorry. a bit more about the the range of employment you would envisage on the sort of fifty hectare site that you've talked about. Do you mean range in terms of numerical quantity or type or all sorts? Er oh all. Please. Certainly. The, I've forgotten what your first question was now . Housing Housing right. The I'm not an economic development officer so the er breadth of the perspective I have is limited from market experience rather than from a broader overview. The market experience is that the inward investors of this scale on the strategic importance that we're discussing generally speaking generate no significant housing demands as part of their package. There may be a handful of key employees brought in by that company to the location to establish the plant erm and to erm recruit and run the work force but my experience of these inquiries and prospective inquiries is that generally speaking they are looking to recruit labour locally and so this is not a housing generator type of development. This is a job supplier type of development. As to the type of employment the interesting feature that I experienced over the last two to three years as shown is that the inquiry level the type of inquiries has tended to focus on manufacturing and the attraction has been the quality of the work force, that is both in skill and its healthiness you know the liability and there are other issues in there too about where Britain is at these days in terms of immunisation wage levels, but it is the people that are themselves the major attractors so the potential work force in the locality that is the major attractor . And that the business has been predominantly the nature of business has been predominantly manufacturing. detect a bit of a question mark and the end of er sorry er er doubting tone as to in my voice that I'm not sure that that would be so in the decade ahead. I I simply don't know but the paperwork I've seen says that erm it is as likely in the next four or five years that major inward investors could be in the B one office type of employment as they happen to have been in the last couple of years in the manufacturing class. It may be you see that the manufacturing flavour of the past two years was to do with the pre er Common Market period getting inside the European Union ring fence with the manufacturing plant and there is speculation as to whether that will now change that the Common Market is now established and that that window of opportunity for manufacturing has tended to recede suggesting that it may be erm administrative er er services service sector that erm these international companies would now want inside the Union. We don't know but I don't know but that is a doubt as to whether the manufacturing flavour of the past will be carried on through the decade. It is also fair to say, and I must be up front about this because it is a matter of it is probably the most sensitive aspect of this whole debate, is about B eight warehousing and distribution. This county is one that for quite a long time has had the policies, I think it's it's E it's number eleven E E eleven is it or I eleven I I I eleven. thank you, in the existing structure plan. There's a there's a established prejudice against warehousing and distribution er developments in this county in the existing structure plan. To be candid with you I would expect there to be, I'm certain, that there will be demand for er modern warehousing and logistic floor space of strategic scale strategic importance er in this county. And I know this presents the county council with some problems I don't know currently what the the local authorities' view on it is. But do let me say a couple of things about it. A subject I happen to know quite a bit about because we've got seven and a half million square feet erm in development at the moment in Lutterworth at Magna Park. Modern warehousing and logistics can yield good job densities. Er modern logistics floor space will at the very least yield about a thousand jobs sorry a hundred jobs per thousand square feet. Er sorry getting all my digits in the wrong place. Try and get it right. It is a hundred jobs per hundred thousand square feet, that's right. And the reason why those job densities work like that is that modern logistics floor space comes brings with it typically an office element unit. So you'll get a big erm warehouse erm which may be typically erm computer controlled, retrieval systems, storage, inventory, stock control and all the rest of it which will employ a certain number of people. But also with it comes erm office accommodation which is handling the clerical processing, ordering and so on of the business itself. And that is a relatively new phenomenon and the type of warehouse which historically we all knew which was men in brown coats driving forklift trucks is not what it's about, it's about er pretty sophisticated labour erm dealing with erm computer systems and electronic retrieval systems and often working in shifts on twenty four hour basis. Now whether we would find in our strate if we were to have a strategic sites policy erm whether there's an issue there that it might let in as it were too much of that kind of land use and not enough of the manufacturing or proper office kind I think is worth kicking around the table. And if it is an issue as to whether there's some way of containing that. But I'll have to be very careful with it I I do expect, I would expect, that there would be inquiries for that kind of investment here erm it's just that we haven't any major ones in the last couple of years of that type because the overall framework here is opposed to it. I suspect the answer to my first question is about numbers of jobs, by virtue of what you've just said as long as a piece of string. Would you like to hazard a guess about how long the string might be? On the number of jobs? Well, if you'll just, if I'm allowed to turn round and consult the chap sitting behind me I can actually give you a direct a direct answer. It's sorry, I'm going to have to do some mathematics because what my friend is telling me it it curious it's it's the thirty four per hectare. Right I've actually I've actually been doing some arithmetic while you were talking Thank you. on the basis of a hundred per hundred thousand square feet to which you'd have to add obviously a sort of surrounding area from the square footage used for a distribution warehouse, it looks as though it's around about the thirteen Yeah. per hectare. Something like that. I'm I'm embarrassed about that because It's alright. the speech we had about job densities yesterday. It obviously wasn't accidental that it worked out that way. Yep. Thank you. Thank you. Can I can I, before we go to Mr Potter, erm may be my slightly naive mind here but I distinguish when you start talking about a strategic site approach to planning for and one of provision within North Yorkshire er as being different from an approach based on major exceptions in that in the sense that you would actually plan for the ability to cope with what my colleague calls the ointment coming over the horizon. In other words, major inward investment not relocation of major investment within the U K but major inward investment from say Western Europe or Japan or wherever. Another Nissan or Toyota. Erm against that there is this elephant which appears, and you say we might have it and find a zoo for it, and in fact we can't move fast enough to find the zoo. Now the the problem with the dealing with I I suspect with the major exceptions policy is that if you had it could you move fast enough in order to cope with that sort of animal appearing on your horizon which you wanted to capture. Surely in a way I'm answering my own point, you would have to go beyond just having a set of words on paper which says we have a major exceptions policy. What do Yes I what do you do in reaction to that? You're looking at Mr Potter do want him I'm just throwing it open. Because I don't think he wanted to be asked question as his first question . Erm it it does like this sir that I would imagine that what what we're after here is a policy which would enable a local authority if it so wished to put into its local plan a strategic site. So that by the time so that when you're out catching elephants you've already got the the the planning story is straight already as part of your net is that I've got a planning Yes. Mr Potter. Erm David Potter North Yorkshire County Council. Er in fact you have anticipated one of the questions I was going to ask. Are we talking here about the principle of major exceptions or are we actually talking about a site. But the reason as it were was to address some of the issues er that Professor Lock has raised. And I think I need to place this issue of inward investment in its proper context in terms of the county council's economic development strategy and the planning strategy for the county. Erm inward investment in terms of the county council's economic development strategy is recognized as important and I think Professor Lock quotes the economic development strategy. I have the strategy in front on me but I it also the strategy also places the economy of the county in in that context in so far as we're dealing with er the county of North Yorkshire is reliant upon some twenty five thousand small businesses employing twenty five people or less and has only forty one firms serving one local market employing over three hundred people. This is an important area of concern obviously. But the basic essence of the strategy focuses on the small firms which underpins the local economy. In ret in terms of inward investment the economic development strategy focuses on inward investment it has a role to play. Er without suitable sites and premises inward investment cannot succeed since inquiries cannot be converted into jobs. And the county council will actively promote key sites to potential inward investors. It will seek to attract further inward investment based upon its strengths and by bioscience. Whilst inward investment Can you can you submit that? I I can certainly. Essentially what it's talking about it inward investment on small scale. Inward investment which could be accommodated within the existing plans existing strategies on existing sites. And in fact at the greenbelt plan inquiry er er I I spent a considerable amount of time arguing on the issue of prestige sites and the availability of prestige sites within the greater York area already planned and available. Er I think the county council recognizes the role of inward investment but that it is a small part of the ec economic growth. In fact the revised economic development strategy which Professor Lock probably doesn't have a copy of, refers to inward inward investment as being desirable erm and is of critical importance but whilst it will be vigorously sort in this way it has to be said that the bulk of North Yorkshire suffers from a relative lack of financial incentives from Central Government in terms of whose regional policy does not have a priority. Even when North Yorkshire sites have been short-listed by an investor on quality grounds the county has had no means of matching the financial incentives elsewhere. And I think the er inward investors that Professor Lock is referring to in terms of the German car manufacturer er the information that we have is that those were the very factors they considered and erm North Yorkshire is not short- listed. Erm we have not perceived that inward investment of this scale is required or that the economic structure of the county could support such a major investment. It is based on small firms. And I look at issues much broader that the sites availability. Availability of labour erm the structure of the labour force. Now in terms of Harrogate for example that is largely focused on erm on the office commercial sector. There is no obviously er pool of manufacturing labour or erm strong manufacturing base sufficient to support a firm coming in and and taking up these large quantities of land. I mean why should this be in there'd be a strategic sites policy. It's it's not necessarily possible to generate jobs from with within its own boundaries. I mean the focus of the plan and the way we've approached erm trying to identify the appropriate level of of land takes into account all that we considered to be the needs of the local economy. And I think this inward investment that Professor Lock is referring to and the scale of investment that he is referring to must be considered as additional and and would draw in additional jobs. I think that's all I I'd like to say on that for the moment. Any one else want to participate in this discussion? Mr Allenby. Thank you Chairman. Er David Allenby Harrogate Borough Council. Erm obviously the borough council strongly advocates the the principle of a strategic exceptions policy and I think there there is some difference between what Professor Lock is advocating and what the borough council is advocating. From a planning point of view we're advocating that there should be a criteria based policy within the structure plan. Er we're not seeking a er a side based initiative if you like as such, although that might come later. So we're looking for a for a separate policy in the industry employment section of the structure plan, we do not wish to see any amendment to part of E two or for that matter to Policy I five, both of which we we fully support. In making a case for for a new exceptions policy our our starting point really is the erm strategic planning framework provided by structure plan, that's Policy I five and the proposed Policy E two. And we feel that both of those policies combine to establish what is in effect a presumption against erm any form of significant employment development away from the the county's main settlements. And I think this is particularly important in the context of the section fifty four A. we've heard from from Professor Lock there are some economic development projects which because of their size or their importance or their locational requirements just can't be accommodated in and around the main settlements of the county. And these developments may be of regional or national importance and they're usually footloose and and clearly would have very significant employment benefits for the local population. And it's these developments that the borough council wishes to see embraced by a new policy. In effect the borough council would like to see a framework established which acknowledges explicitly that in the right circumstances strategic employment development can be accommodated in the county. In our view such developments will only be attracted to an area if there is a clear prospect of of a site being made available as an exception to normal blank policies to meet those very specific requirements. And a key in all of this and Professor Lock er mentioned is why should we have er a strategic exceptions policy, why why do we want to attract those sort of developments to the county and more specifically perhaps Harrogate District? And in that I can only speak for the Harrogate District erm but the situation may well apply to other districts. Yesterday Professor Lock referred to to Harrogate's bubble having burst. Erm indeed over the last two or three years the borough council's become extremely concerned at the deteriorating economic situation within the district and particularly around Harrogate itself. The current in Harrogate's case significant number of major job losses and we we estimate that those amount to between three and four thousand jobs, er many of which we feel are still to come through the system and are therefore not reflected in unemployment figures of yet. The result of all this has been a rapid rise in in registered unemployment er nevertheless and a steep rise in in long term unemployment. And particularly of concern to us an adverse structural shift in various employment sectors. And the borough council has responded to this situation by adopting a number of policy objectives including the one which seeks to attract appropriate inward investment projects. And we feel that in order to facilitate this a planning policy initiative is is needed. We've looked at those initiatives and there seem seemed to me to be to be three approaches. Firstly, the council could have opted for a significant increase in the er I five allocation and to go on to see to identify a site in the local plan. And for a number of reasons we we felt that this wasn't appropriate er primarily because it's it's an inflexible approach. Erm it isn't really tailored to meet the needs er of the sort of developments we're talking about. In effect anything allocated under I five would have to be made available in or in or around main settlements. Secondly we could've or we could accept the status quo and and do what the county council's suggesting. In other words, we would deal with applications as they come forward on an ad hoc basis where the onus onus would be on the developer to prove er prove exceptional circumstances. In our view this is not acceptable either. The main problem here is that that sort of approach wouldn't give potential inward investors any confidence at all that a strategic development would be acceptable within the county or within the district. In other words, uncertainties about the planning posture towards a proposal and doubts about local local authorities' ability to approve a site are likely to deter potential investors at an early stage. The third option is to go for a strategic exceptions policy in the structure plan and obviously this is what er the borough considered considers is appropriate. We feel that this would provide a framework for the evaluation of the material considerations which the county council has accepted can come into play. And it appears from what the county council has said that they are they're not necessarily opposed to this sort of development that we're we're looking at here but that er the case would have to be proven as an exception to normal planning policy. All we're seeking is some explicit acknowledgement within the plan that there may be circumstances where this type of development will be appropriate. The type of policy we're actually seeking is already included in the Humberside structure plan and I see this morning that er that was circulated as D four double O seven. Er in fact it is actually erm er re reproduced in my my evidence, paragraph four and five. Now that policy and I think think I'll it out, The proposals for industry and commerce that are not in accordance with the relevant policies of this plan would not normally be permitted but special provision for very large projects may occasionally be made in exceptional circumstances provided that, and there are three criteria, There would be substantial proven employment or other benefits to county residents, the proposal cannot reasonably be implemented on land proposed in local plans for industrial or commercial development bearing in mind the undertakings operational requirements, and thirdly, that there are no overriding planning objections. Now that seems to us to be a very good way forward in establishing a framework for for the consideration of those sort of proposals. It's clear from from that sort of policy that the need for or benefits arising from the development would always have to be assessed against environmental and other considerations, for example, regional strategy. Which is what the county council suggests could happen anyway. In this case however there would be a proper framework for for that evaluation to take place. To conclude therefore the borough council strongly urges the panel to recommend the county council to include a strategic exceptions policy. Before I finish I I just wonder whether I could put one point to the county and that's whether in the absence of a strategic exceptions policy in the structure plan, they would allow the borough council to include the type of policy we're seeking in our district wide local plan bearing in mind that some of the considerations in involved are of a strategic nature. Before you before you respond Mr Williamson, Mr Heselton do you want to just pick up the Thank you sir. same sort of feel that Mr Allenby's been dealing with? Yeah. Terry Heselton Selby District. Erm I'm in I'm in some difficulty because this is this is a matter that's arisen since the original matters er matters for discussion were drawn up so I'm not able to give you the formal views of the council in that respect. But it it might be worth if if I outline my own office view Well let me have your professional view. Right well yes that's what I was about to do. Erm well as I've as I've in my submission I I think we can give qualified support for the proposal that erm Harrogate have put on the table. I'll come as no surprise to you that er what's been suggested would be consistent with the sorts of arguments that that I put forward yesterday. Erm going back to to my point that the existing development plan system hasn't served Selby District particularly well. And picking up Professor Lock's point erm we are certainly in the market to attract footloose investment. Erm interesting that that Dave Allenby's men mentioned the Humberside policy and again just just to reiterate very briefly the the point I made yesterday. We had some discussion about competition, if I can use that word, between ourselves and and Leeds, but where Selby sits in in North Yorkshire we are in competition with with more than just West Yorkshire. We've got the South Yorkshire authorities Wakefield and Doncaster in particular and also the the Humberside authorities as as well. So I think it it would fit in with the the council's a adopted economic development strategy. I think basically having having heard the argument put forward from from both sides what what we're really talking about is a is a policy that in in terms of its support from the districts it depends whether or not any particular district council might have such a use for the policy. And and I think I I'm able to to to give that level of support from Selby District's point of view. Two concerns that that I do have are one in in relation to the er criterion and the safeguards that might also be be put in place with the policy. And er got three suggestions really to add to the criteria that Professor Lock's put forward. One is that I think in order to overcome some of the objections that that we heard from Leeds yesterday in terms of the erm the urban regeneration policies, that any proposal would would certainly need to be re-relocating from outside the region. Erm secondly, it might reasonably be expected to demonstrate that it would be in the interests of either the region, regional or sub- regional economy. Then that thirdly, it it would need to help fulfil the economic objectives or the employment needs of the receiving authority which which I guess in in many respects boils down to nominating a particular authority or authorities if if you like. Erm where I have to qualify my my support is is, and and I do particularly want to stress that in no way would I accept the exceptions policy as a substitute to an appropriate increase in the employment alloca allocation for Selby District. Because clearly an increase in in in the allocation sends a much stronger signal to potential investors and it carries with it a greater degree of certainty as far as the district council's concerned, as far as potential investors are concerned. And also of course as a far as local people are concerned. The implication So sorry can I just ask, so in effect you haven't shifted your ground from the view which you expressed in paragraph three point six of your submission where you've just confirmed in fact that you'd rather have a proper or the ability to make a sort of proper measured allocations, part of which would make provision or allow the facility to cater for major inward investment? Er Terry Heselton Selby District. Well,another way of putting it is that this might be an additional er policy that that would help us as well as er Yep. as an increase in the all in the allocation, but that the main message is is that I wouldn't like it to be a substitute for that. No right. Thank you. Is the implication of what you've just said to the Chairman that you agree with Mr Allenby that this animal is a different one than anything that might go to an I five site? Terry Heselton Selby District. Yes I think I think that that that is the case. But but equally it may it may be in the in the fullness of time that that we would be able to identify or bring a site forward through the local plan process and we're not at that stage at the moment. Right. I have some knowledge of the Lutterworth site to which Professor Lock referred and of the Toyota site at Derby. Professor Lock will no doubt correct me if I'm wrong but from memory in neither of those cases was there the sort of provision in the development plan which you're now seeking. It may be, but I can't remember, that both of them preceded section fifty four A. Was that true at Lutterworth? I'm I'm not competent on, er David Lock, I'm not competent on Toyota. Erm all I have is the layman's knowledge that it was a gift to Edwina Curry's constituency . Er erm and I don't think it had a planning history. The the erm situation for Lutterworth er Magna Park however I I am familiar with and it certainly preceded section fifty four A and erm in in there were two phases. Er the first of erm er three three million square feet, second of four and a half, and erm the er in both cases it triggered the call-in procedure under the departure and in both cases er a public inquiry had to be held er or the Secretary of State chose to call a public inquiry. And in both cases that took two and a half years. But hasn't prevented either. It hasn't prevented either Going ahead. No but the the, sorry you're quite right. Erm the difference is that erm it A Magna Park is specifically an exclusively rather, exclusively geared to to B eight and is absolutely slap bang in the middle of the country on the conjunction of the M six M one and the A one M link route and everything else. Erm the land is a disused airfield required very cheaply so there was no great exposure in getting that site away and its first occupiers were the company that had bought it and Asda did their own buildings to begin with for their own use. What we're talking about here is a is a different circumstance where the erm competition for inward investment up here further north is more intense. A number of erm elephants coming into view is fewer. There are fewer elephants about up here erm and er the issue that obviously concerns me from the development point of view is the is the time scale, is the process rather, that that the planning policy would im would imply. And sorry, while I'm speaking I'm I'm left a little confused. When you heard me I was imagining a process whereby you'd have a strategic sites policy in the structure plan which would enable a local authority in preparing its local plan if it wished to identify a strategic site and that would then become in the local plan, you know subject to all those consultation processes, and then it's part of the portfolio that is available in the published arena with a statutory framework behind it. Erm David Allenby didn't talk like that. We haven't swapped notes on this aspect of it. He maybe sees a different process and and I don't know about you Chairman but it would it would help me to see if to hear whether they they see a different process at work. David Allenby Harrogate Borough Council. Erm my starting point on all of that is the development issues report that erm we put to our members in May of this year where we discussed the issue of strategic exceptions policies and how we would deal with with that sort of approach in in the local plan. And the conclusion of that is we go for a criteria based approach for the time being, see see what the response was to that er and nothing was said about identifying the site as such. I think the difficulty with taking a a site approach is that it's difficult erm to assess what the employment benefits are of something that you're not sure about. Erm now it may be that on a particular site erm conditions could be laid down to ensure and secure that there were significant employment benefits accruing from the development of that site. But what we had in mind in looking at this through the the local plan was that er we'd be looking at specific end users to see what the benefits were of those those end users and to assess those benefits against any environmental harm that there would be and strategy as a whole. So I think erm there is there is a difference between us in all of that, but that needn't necessarily mean that we won't identify a site in the future. Can I take it from what you said Professor Lock that you would envisage this policy as providing for B one B two and B eight development? Yes. yes that it would e it would exclude none of those possibilities is how I would Given the stance of policy approved Policy I eleven in relation to B eight development and the fact that we are here discussing an alteration not a review and replacement of the structure plan, does anyone around the table she said looking hard at Mr Saunders, see any difficulty in the panel poten potentially recommending a policy which would be in direct wi conflict with the policy which is not before it? Les Saunders Department of the Environment. Since the department since the regional office has been suggesting for some time, or throughout the entire process of this structure plan alteration, that erm an exceptions policy should be considered by the erm county council, I think it would be consistent that we would anticipate the panel could reach a conclusion on the inclusion of the major exceptions policy as part of this alteration. Was the regional office conscious in making that, I'm sorry that was not that pause intentional, was the regional office conscious in making that suggestion that B eight uses were being advocated to be included and therefore the conflict potentially was a policy which was not before it? I think that's a fair point. I think that B eight was not upper most in the department's mind when it was making its er views known about a major exceptions policy. Thank you sir. So if the panel were minded to recommend an exceptions policy then in the in the light of I eleven we we'd have great difficulty in recommending other than B one and B two uses. Perhaps er my understanding was as as I guess Mr Saunders' understanding of this policy was before Professor Lock mentioned Lutterworth, that it was primarily manufacturing or B one, B one or B two. This is this is now a now a terribly important issue. I it is not envisaged I mean I mustn't mislead you at all I want I want to be understood on this issue. Nobody is that I'm that I'm aware, is proposing a distribution park of strategic importance . Yet. Yet. Erm what I was trying to do was be candid about what kind of er inquiries of the strategic kind might be expected to come if this county had that kind of policy. I think what I imagined erm Miss Whittaker and Chairman is that erm if you get the criteria right then this exceptions policy would also be an exception to I eleven, but it would have to pass this criteria. In other words it would have to be job beneficial, it would have to be of strategic importance and and all those other things we've been discussing. But I think I had imagined it would it would allow, if it was wanted, it would allow I eleven to be overridden it would be one of the things it would be an exception to. I think potentially Professor Lock you could be inventing some work for barristers given that Policy I eleven says provision will not be made. It does doesn't it? But then if we're exempting ex exceptions policy except as maybe provided an exception policy number seven . . I can I can see the the trap here. Erm it maybe that in this alteration the erm it's worth just spending a minute on whether B eight should just be kept out of the frame for the moment and it's something that gets dealt with at a later time when more policies are in play. Can I ask would that seriously if it were limited or by virtue of the panel report having identified this problem we reported that we saw a problem if it included B eight, would that be a problem from the point of view either Harrogate or Selby if B eight was in effect, if not in the policy itself, excluded? David Allenby Harrogate Borough Council. Erm perhaps I could answer that Chairman by saying that the policy I've suggested from the Humberside structure plan would er would I think cover that er problem in that it starts off by saying, Proposals for industry and commerce that are not in accordance with the relevant policies of this plan will not normally be permitted. And then put special provision for very large projects. So there is a recognition there that by the very nature of these erm proposals that they're not going to be in accordance with one or perhaps more policies in the structure plan. Thank you. Thank you sir. Er Terry Heselton Selby District. Erm I don't think it would would cause us a a tremendous problem. Erm can I also draw your attention to the to the second erm part of the of the policy that would at least permit that type of development provided it it was able to demonstrate a need to be located in North Yorkshire. So it's not an absolute exclusion is it? You're talking about I eleven? I eleven sorry yes. Yes it's not it's not absolutely exclusive. Mr Broughton. Thank you Chairman. As I said this morning doesn't oppose er in principle the idea of of of er an exceptions policy. But er looking at er Professor Lock's suggestion and the criterion that is set out there I think er a number of people might be interested to have a go at those criteria so to speak. And certainly from erm my department's point of view we would be looking for er an inclusion of a criterion on the need to avoid higher quality agricultural land. That's it. Mr Earle and then Mr Potter. Thank you Chairman. Patrick Earle Richmondshire. I also speak with a, a while ago now, but a certain amount of experience in Northumberland working for the county council in bringing development into Cramlington new town, so I am aware of the er the merits of er getting your elephants by having a cage already made. Find some of them insist on finding their own cage and er so you do then have to er have a flexible approach. But I think the analogy begins to break down and I'll go on to erm straight forward thinking in Richmondshire erm where we wouldn't recognize an elephant if we saw one. . I've just been told er to my right it's a very large sheep. Erm . Shame. No. The scale of development that's in Professor Lock's contemplation is plainly not one that I I think that would directly er affect Richmondshire and so to some extent er I'm speaking from that perspective. Although fifty hectares at thirty per hectare I mean fifteen hundred jobs erm and I think we've got eleven hundred or a thousand on our total unemployment role. So plainly that wouldn't necessarily apply to us but the the except the exception would be sitting there in policy and I I think it's a it's something we we would find very difficult er to live with. Erm you see the question is how far how wide to the exceptions go. Er Mr Broughton's just brought in another one that he he wants er qualification on. How how many other policies of the structure plan would this apply to? Wild life conservation, er and other conservation issues er would be brought into question. Erm I I foresee the possibility that erm we would be faced with lesser proposals lesser than the scale that erm Professor Lock contemplates because it would be said, well if fifty hectares is right for Ha er for Harrogate then what twenty hectares for Richmondshire ten hectares. Er and and and so the the the policy would perhaps be extended. Erm the the question would ultimately come out, well why not retail? I I the retail's not within what we've been talking about this afternoon but on the other hand it does employ more people per hectare than any industry we've been talking about as as far as as far as I understand it. I see a danger that every single motorway interchange in the county, and heavens in the country, will be subject to an interpretation of this er of this sort of exceptions approach. And it's that in itself has been er er an issue faced by Ministers on the M twenty five. Erm the the er Professor Lock was saying well you know the way you get your footloose industry is to present them with an absolute guarantee of planning permission. Well no ideas have been put forward this afternoon in terms of a structure plan alteration er or an additional policy, will give an absolute guarantee. I mean obviously the it's a I perhaps it's an exaggeration to the effect that nobody can guarantee planning permission until they've got planning permission. And this is why I think the approach that Harrogate would perhaps be thinking of and we ourselves would be thinking of if this is the way we wanted to go is simply to go out and get a site and get planning permission on it. And present it to a prospective developer. Erm or short of that a firm local plan allocation with all the consultations and environmental impact study already done. Other other than that you cannot guarantee planning permission. And what our colleagues in County Durham again in Northumberland we were able to do is was this was all in place. Here's the planning permission here's the site if you insist on going there well we can't give you any guarantees but we'll do our best for you, but certainly the best thing is to have the allocation. And if that allocation is pushed through, if you like in the teeth of the structure plan policy, but it becomes your local plan, and that's the legislation provides for that, that surely must be the the question. Just one other other point, there is the issue of sustainable development Professor Lock referred to erm alright we'll bring in the railway line er as as part of your criteria, but I am concerned at the the general dispersal that is er envisaged in the sort of development er that he suggested. Erm so as I say to to get your erm to get the elephant er have the cage with planning permission. Thank you. Mr Potter. Thank you. David Potter North Yorkshire County Council. Erm I think Professor Lock appears to be talking about a site specific proposal. The borough council refers to a criteria based policy. Yet I think the borough council gave some clear hints they're maybe looking for additional land allocation. Now I think it would be helpful if the borough council could clarify whether that is in fact what they're looking for an additional land allocation. But I would like to point out the county council point of view on both a site or a criteria based policy. In fact er Professor Lock in his hin in his own evidence er page five para four three refers to a rash of speculation alo along the A one M in the county, as to which locations the policy might be said to apply. I think that is the fear of the county council that a criteria based policy would lead to a sp a rash of speculation speculative development along the er the major motorway corridors. Erm with regard to a site specific policy, if it's additional, and there's no clear need for it it's not catered for within the allocation which is er provided for within the structure plan, then we could be left with a major site with a clear commitment to its development or its suitability for development and and no end user. Now what would happen to the site in those circumstances? A major business park, er a major manufacturer, a major distribution centre, erm with the consequences for perhaps in commuting and trans er transport movements. I think these are the fears of the county council that er the uncertainty such a policy would bring. Would the more explicit specification in a policy like E four of Humberside, excuse me, that the development should not be speculative, in other words that the end user should be known, overcome some of your concerns? I think if the end user was known then the end user is perfectly capable of submitting a planning application. Erm and it could be dealt with on its merits. I don't think there's anything within fifty four section fifty four A which precludes that. David Allenby Harrogate Borough Council. I just wanted to come back on er David Potter's assertion that we were looking for a a higher allocation under I five and I I thought I'd specifically covered that point by saying that that wasn't what we were looking for because that wouldn't address the sort of development we're talking about here. Er another allocation under I five would simply mean that we'd more land to find in and around main areas. Erm those sites are subject to other lo locational restrictions and other environmental restrictions and wouldn't in our view be appropriate for the sort of development that he's looking for erm a location in in our context anyway generally speaking along the A one corridor. Could I just have Mr Jewitt first. Michael Jewitt Hambleton District Council. Erm I tend to share Patrick Earle's reservations about this particular policy, I think that it would convey the wrong message erm to the development industry. Erm undermine the policies of conservation and restraint in the county. There's also a danger, as Patrick Earle's pointed out, though it would be applied differently between different districts erm given erm that erm erm relative issues on unem unemployment and the economy will er differ between between districts. I question really whether or not this erm this policy is needed erm to meet local employment requirements. I think it should be erm local councils should be able to bring their requirements from allocated sites provided they make the appropriate er provide an appropriate choice of location and size of sites erm up to the erm levels proposed in the county. And I really do question whether the potential benefits of such such an exceptions policy really erm are worth undermining those strategic policies of conservation and restraint. I tend to think that it should really be left outside the development plan process and it should be for individual developers to prove exceptional needs. That way it can be dealt with through the departure process and the checks and balances the departure er introduces erm are in place erm to to protect local interest. Do you want to come back on something or can I ask Professor Lock to Well it was really er, Ken Williamson of North Yorkshire. It was really er the point er Mr Allenby made. It seems to me that what we're talking about here is Harrogate's land allocation being, not necessarily an I five, but sixty hectares which he agreed was adequate for I five yesterday, plus I suspect another fifty which would be a strategic site. Although there may be differences between er Professor Lock's approach and Harrogate's superficially I think the the mutual objective seems to be er between the two strategic site within the development plan in Harrogate district and on the access one site of the A one A fifty nine junction. Could I check out I I mean I'm still not sure whether Harrogate are happy with sixty hectares at I five to meet their requirements, that was what I understood yesterday. Are we talking about another fifty hectares really to add on to that? Not necessarily as I five but as another fifty hectares as industrial or employment land whatever you'd like to call it. David Allenby Harrogate Borough Council. I'm not sure how clearly I have to spell this out. No we're not looking for an increase in our I five allocation. That is not going to help in this situation. We support the I five allocation. What we're looking for is a new policy initiative which will allow in appropriate circumstances inward investment of er er a significant strategic nature to be accommodated within North Yorkshire and that could possibly probably be Harrogate district. Thank you. Professor Lock. Sir. Erm er four or five points. Er the contribution to the discussion made by Mr Jewitt of Hambleton erm is a necessary contribution but it really doesn't fit or sit well with the economic circumstances of other parts of the county. I don't know about Hambleton but erm talking in er erm on high ground about conservation and so on erm is very difficult when a local authority is faced with structural change in its economic base and major unemployment. I mean that is a serious social and political issue to which there should be in my submission a planning response. We can't just ignore it erm it is proper planning to try and do something about it. On the second er the second point to make is that erm on the county council's end of this equation, er Mr Potter er referred us to the county's economic development strategy, I think I've got that latest edition, where he was erm attempting to tell us that the erm county's economic strategy is to attract inward investment of a small scale type. That is indeed part of their strategy but the fact of the matter is that the county council is wholly implicated in the efforts that have been made in this erm county over the last couple of years to get large scale inward investment. That is a factual situation which I hope Mr Allenby would be able to erm endorse it if it becomes a matter of dispute between us. Erm the county is implicated in the search for erm er large scale investment. It also puts money into the Yorkshire and Humberside Development Association which is wholly involved and has been for the last two years in trying to get large scale erm strategic inward investment into the county, and erm it is a erm awkwardness I think that it's best to be open about that the planning policy of the county is out of tune with the day factor activities of the economic development side of the of the county council. Third point erm relates to the proposal from the gentleman on the left here about agricultural land as an additional criteria. Erm that has been a matter of serious discussion here and I know with some of the local authorities, and the fact of the matter is sir that we feel that if we look at the agricultural land quality of this county, if you were to have a criteria based policy which included the requirement that strategic sites should avoid good quality agricultural land erm you haven't got a policy at all because this is a county which has mostly its territory covered by good quality agricultural land especially in those parts of this county where strategic development might be expected to actually happen. That brings me to this last point about criteria. Erm I forget which discussant it was but it it's wrong to think that there's a difference I think between erm me, I was being characteritured as wanting a site specific policy, and Harrogate who were being characteritured as wanting a criteria based policy. I I think there's a fit in this. What I'm trying to suggest is a criteria based policy at the strategic scale. The purpose of that is to remove from Mr Jewitt at Hambleton and Mr Earle at Richmondshire and any others erm who just don't want this kind of pressure brought upon them, er by putting criteria in at the strategic scale you could derive that criteria and maybe even name local authority areas to make to protect those who do not want this feature. Where I talk about sites specific is to get down to this nitty gritty about which comes first, the erm inquiry or the erm planning consent. And again to spell that out erm the way it needs to work in practice I believe is that in its local plan a local authority should be able to define a site which it would regard as suitable for development only for these strategically important reasons. In other words it's not part of its standard employment allocation but it's put it in the local plan so that people know, the locals know, that that field over there those fields over there erm are not guaranteed for ever as countryside but on the other hand they're jolly well not gonna be released unless it's for something extremely special for which there would be a statement carried through from the structure plan, elaborated on no doubt at local level, which set the rules. Erm that zoning that allocation in a local plan backed by this erm er er policy in the structure plan would be enough in my judgement to enable the economic development people to actually capture the, get the elephant in the trap. But indeed it is not planning permission. Because that elephant is going to probably require an environmental assessment or environmental statement erm and there would be infinite numbers of details to tie up in section one O sixes and goodness knows what else specific to that user or users, those users when they the came in the frame. But unless you've erm got the certainty from the planning framework point of view that subject to those important details its planning permission is deliverable, then the elephant will go somewhere else. There is a restaurant in my home town, as I guess there is in many, called Something Special. I have eaten there once and came away describing it as something not very special. How, picking up on the terms you use Professor Lock, how would the policy guarantee that what this elephant was special? I anticipate that because that's becoming now a key question. And and what I've got in front of me, David Lock, what I've got in front of me is is erm, and I know David's got it David Allenby's got it as well, is the er paper from Harrogate's Economic Development Officer to his Economic Development Sub-Committee, and it's gone all the way through the process now and through the main council, where he has to answer that very question and I couldn't put it better. What he says here it says, There are an investment project, Miss Whittaker, whose size, composition, economic significance and locational requirements make it impossible to locate on an ordinary site, so that's one one issue, and then he says, Of regional significance or more often national or international significance. And this is how you clear that one up. Relating to investment that could locate elsewhere in the U K or in Europe but which would only be attracted to this site if it, to to a site, if it is erm sorry,availabil if the availability of this site, if this site is made available on terms similar to those of competing locations. So picking the bones out of that, it's size, composition, economic significance and locational requirement means that you can't bed it down in your ordinary I five allocation. That's one criteria. And then it's got to be regional, national or international investment which could go elsewhere in the U K or in Europe. Now that kind of language which is what this chap is is using here would seem to me to be setting the the erm frame in a way which really would protect erm a locality from er this policy being a stalking-horse for something that is ordinary. It really these are quite hurdles to jump over. Could we have a copy of that er paper? Yes by all means yep. Mr Broughton. No I think Mr Broughton, did you want to come back Mr Broughton? Yes. And then and then Mr Feist. Just on one of the points er made by Professor Lock erm who was arguing that it it basically wasn't possible to include an agricultural land quality criterion er in the exceptions policy because there was so much good land in North Yorkshire. Erm our estimate of the proportion of of agricultural land in the county which would be classified as best and most versatile land, that is having a considerable er weight in planning decisions grades one two and three A, is between thirty and thirty five percent. Er and that's of agricultural land not of all land in the county, so the proportion of the total land would be less than that. So I don't think I would accept the Professor's argument on that point I think there is plenty of scope for locating a development of this kind either on non-agricultural site or on moderate or poor quality land. Mr Feist. Thank you. Michael Feist Countryside special sites could be in open countryside away from Government policies concerning sustainability, I wonder how Professor Lock would see the situation emerging whereby a local authority has allocated a certain amount of land in its local plan for development for industrial or commercial purposes, it's tried to erm identify a broad range of criteria but it also identified special sites erm which will only be released in exceptional circumstances, that happened to be an open countryside and had the advantages that it may be a little close to the A one or somewhere similar. Most developers would probably opt for the open site policy on the bas open site erm area on the basis this would better meet their functional needs. They don't have to worry too much about the eventualities and all the other sins that the planning process is concerned with. So a local authority might then find itself in a situation that it'd got a two tier site. One which the developer would prefer and one which the local authority and maybe sustainability policies would prefer. In this case the developer would probably say to the local authority, I want this site and it's all or nothing, which then puts the local authority in a dilemma and in the sense its allocated sites are now seen to be some form second status. And I can't help thinking that we might end up with a sort of repeat of the sort of situation that's occurred at Octavius Atkinson site which is erm mentioned in the erm the paper tabled this morning, whereby er a sort of market-led approach which puts a lot of pressure on the local authorities may be at the expense of the planning-led approach to erm deciding where development should most appropriately go. But I'd I say that with full acceptance that there is a dilemma in trying to attract erm development to er to areas which badly need them. I think that the question is how much are we going to sacrifice in order to satisfy the developers' erm er desire to have virtual guarantees that the site will be available as and when they want it. Thank you for that. Mr Collier and then I think . Thank you Chairman. Erm I'd like to make a point about the this question of an agricultural land quality criterion in the policy. Erm it seems to me erm that there's a danger that if Professor Lock has his way when the elephant comes crashing through into the clearing he will be sending Richonds Richmondshire's sheep flying in all directions and er will be er affecting lots of other other agricultural creatures at the same time. Erm what I think we need is an alternative to the suggestion made by Mr Broughton erm is simply erm a wording in the exceptions policy should it be er carried forward that makes it clear that the agricultural policies in the structure plan do still apply erm to to those proposals. Now the reason I I make that suggestion is that erm Policy A two for example looks at not only the erm quality of the agricultural land but also the effect of development proposals on erm the maintenance and economically viable erm farm units and so forth. Er and therefore it looks at erm the indirect impact of development erm and it's it's more sophisticated one might say than merely looking at the quality of the land. Thank you. Thank you very much. Can we break for tea now come back at twenty five to four. No no let's make it twenty to four. Then you'll have time to enjoy your tea. Thank you. Mr Allenby are you ready to burst into song? Metaphorically speaking. Oh yes I don't know about song Chairman but er suppose I'm singing a song of some sort. Erm I'd like just to re remind the county if I could about the question I did put in my opening er remarks that er we would like some view from them as to whether if their if their strategic exceptions policy isn't er ultimately included in the structure plan they would object to the principle of us er pursuing this sort of approach through our local plan. Obviously that's in general terms as a matter of principle. I'd also like to just come back on one point that Mr Feist made about a a two tier approach to employment sites. Er that in my view won't happen because the I five sites we will still be allocating in and around the main urban areas. A strategic site if it comes forward would be away from the main urban areas and would only be available for developments that could not otherwise take place on the I five allocations. Mr Williams. Thank you sir. A few brief comments. Erm I suppose Scarborough Borough Council er having the most acute unemployment problems in the county er is as interested as anybody else in attracting new investment, but er I do wonder whether this particular approach is the right one. Erm it seems to me that we've been talking about capturing elephants but er is it really a Trojan horse? Oh this gets worse. Erm the the county have have worked er very hard to produce a balanced strategy. They they've looked at erm housing and er industrial development, er I wasn't at the discussion yesterday, but clearly they've put a significant effort into deciding what the appropriate level of new industrial development is. And er with the exceptions policy erm how many exceptions would we allow? I mean we're told that these erm types of development are few and far between. Er supposing the economy did take off erm we used up all the industrial land that er had been allocated to the districts. Er which took care of all the the local needs, reduced unemployment, er and we have a lot of these exceptions coming forward. Er do we then have a situation where the county's strategy's significantly undermined? We attract a lot of new housing er requirements for new housing development er commuting is patterns have significantly changed. Erm I just feel it's er it's a dangerous policy. Thank you. Thank you. Could I er, David Allenby Harrogate Just a moment just a moment Mr Allenby Could I just respond to that Chairman Alright yep. Erm that I think wouldn't be the case. If if er I five sites have been taken up and employment needs of districts have been addressed and the county in general have been addressed, then er an inward investment wouldn't provide or offer substantial proven employment benefits. Those benefits don't need aren't there because there is employment. So that that consideration would be waived in the balance and clearly erm it wouldn't be right to those sort of developments. I don't I don't there is a is a problem in that respect. Thank you. . Sharon Watson Craven District Council. Er I think from Craven's point of view erm we couldn't really see any justification for a strategic exceptions policy in Craven's case. Erm Craven's economic development strategy is based on growth amongst small local businesses erm and we have very few large employers. Erm mos mostly our economic base is through small businesses and that's where we see er the future growth of employment needs being satisfied. Erm I perhaps do have some sympathy for Harrogate's position. Erm they perceive a need for this policy, er they have a a perceived structural changes in their economy and er there is resultant fear erm that perhaps they would not be able to respond flexibly enough er with the policies that are in place and see a need for this additional one. From a purely selfish point of view, if the policy were to indicate specific areas of the county erm where this policy would er be appropriate and would apply erm and as long as it excluded Craven , then I think clearly you know we've er it being in. How however, I mean from a a broader point of view I think I would have some general reservations as have been confessed previously by Mr Earle and and Mr Jewitt. Erm but I do have some sympathy with Harrogate's position and indeed Selby's position er to some extent. But certainly in the Craven context I do not feel there is any justification for this policy. No I think your neighbours to the south have a different perception to Craven's strategic role. Yes they do. If only in housing. Mr Rudd. Julian Rudd Ryedale District Council. It's obviously time for all the districts to nail their cause to the mast. If I could make clear that should the panel consider applying the exceptions policy to particular districts within the council with the county in fact, then Ryedale stands alongside Hambleton and Craven and Scarborough and Richmondshire have enormous misgivings about the application of this policy certainly to our district. Thank you. Mr Saunders. Thank you sir. S Saun Les Saunders D O E. In in making our representations about erm a major exceptions policy erm the regional office had thought of it very much as a a facilitating policy to deal only with exceptional cases. Erm certainly we'd not anticipated that it would outweigh existing structure plan policies or outweigh existing Policy E two. Erm it would be for the the policy itself to define the criteria such that it did only refer to exceptional circumstances and the occasional one or two cases. I'd I'd submit the erm Humberside Policy E four erm not exactly as a as a model policy or even as best practice. You may get one example of of what in a joint local authority have done. Perhaps if we if we looked a little at Humberside's experience. Erm to the best of my knowledge erm Policy E four has been utilized only one since this structure plan was approved in in nineteen eight seven er enabling erm one the districts and myself back to the Humber to to acquire an an international erm company. Erm but it hasn't to the best of my knowledge it has not resulted in a rash of of developments and motorway intersections. I I quite accept the the M eighteen M sixty two is not the the A one or the M one. Erm but erm I I merely pose it as as an indication that erm it is possible for local authorities to erm not open the door to development, speculative development, er if they do not wish to do so erm because it does not ride override existing structure plan policies. Erm others have have suggested that it could be handled through the existing . If if a major proposal came along and the local authority wan district wanted to grasp it with both hands they could use the er existing erm development plan process to do so. Erm even if it was contrary to existing erm adopted local plan. All I would say with regard to that is is it would seem to the regional office that consideration of those proposals that were in conflict with a with an approved development plan would be erm more easily facilitated if there was an approved strategic context against which they could be judged. Erm and it would in in us suggesting to the county council that they consider this policy we had in no way expected it to to to result in in in wholesale de erm development. But er just a one the exceptional cases. And as a a facilitating policy erm it in their it it assists all parties in er dealing with er applications that come forward that are contrary to reductive development plan. Mr Williams. Thank you sir. David Williams Scarborough Borough Council. Could I just clarify my position on this. Clearly er these are my personal comments because the issue hasn't been debated by the council. Erm first of all I I'm not in support of an exceptions policy. Er if there were to be an exceptions policy the suggestion has been made that certain districts perhaps could be identified er as being a suitable location. Erm if there was to be an exceptions policy er I wouldn't like Scarborough to be excluded from it. Because er as I say erm if the opportunity came along and er given the unemployment problems in the borough erm it may be that we would wish to take that opportunity. Erm I mean I I don't see it but if the opportunity came along I think it would be invidious to have a policy which er only allowed those exceptions in certain districts. Thank you sir. Thank you. Mr Rudd do you want to come back on something? Erm I didn't but I I shall. If you leave it long enough you get picked on. Obviously. Julian Rudd Ryedale District Council. In in not supporting the application of such a policy to Ryedale district, I'm not by any means saying that the district council would never support erm such elephants as er as have been referred to. Merely that we would not support the application of such a policy. We'd rather deal with each proposal on its particular merits. Yep. Anyone else want to make any comments before I, is this to pick up points or can I Chairman yes come back to you for something else? Yeah okay. It is er Chairman. Er Ken Williamson North Yorkshire. It's in response to Mr Allenby's question we seem to be patiently waiting for I think he posed it some time ago about the county council's view on whether in the absence of a strategic exceptions policy or whatever you call it, a major exceptions policy in the structure plan, whether the county council would object to it being pursued in the in the local plan. Chairman I think er I don't think we've got any any option but to say yes we we would. I think at er the sort of level of development and the location implications of er such a strategic exception, fifty hectares in some location which was totally outside the context of approved locational policy, this would represent a significant element of really nonconformity with the plan. I think we'd have to have to make our views known on that. Chairman I'd just David Allenby Harrogate Borough Council. I'd just like to come back on that because I'm referring here to erm county council paper N Y seven which was er relating to the I five I twelve issues we were issuing yesterday. Er in paragraph a hundred and eight of that paper and I'd I'd like to read er read a quotation out, However because an exception is not acknowledged it does not mean that provision could not be made for this. Much would depend on the particular circumstances at the time either in the context of a planning application or a local plan proposal. The policy as expressed does not necessarily exclude development outside the area specified but directs development areas as a primary consideration. Therefore it is for the district council to justify any local plan policy which deviates from the county structure plan. There seems to be some sort of implicit acknowledgement in there or even explicit acknowledgement that if we were able to justify the approach we could pursue it within a local plan and that doesn't really square with what Mr Williamson has just said. David Potter North Yorkshire County Council. Erm I was actually going to pick that point up in summary but er Mr Allen Allenby has raised it. I think er what the county council's position is in terms of the statement he's just read out it is that er the county council strategic framework, the structure plan alteration number three, the high fly policy which we discussed yesterday, is an attempt to address the needs of the districts and if we've got this right then sufficient land should be identified or allocated to the districts within Policy I five. Erm we perceive no need at the present time for such an exception and the borough council seem to have accepted that. They see that their I five allocation is sufficient. Er but we acknowledge that over time circumstances may change and that it may be appropriate and such circumstances erm needs may change different circumstances may arise and they would have to be dealt with within the strategic planning framework. Erm if at some time in the future a local plan picked up a change in circumstances and made a cogent argument inn favour of varying from the strategic framework, we would have to consider that on its merits. The elephant analogy arose because most of us all of us recognize an elephant when we see one but it is very difficult to describe it and Mr Potter has gone some way to acknowledging that in saying that the circumstances may change. However if this undefined elephant arises, bearing in mind the time the development planning process takes, is it reasonable to think that the elephant would wait around long enough for that to happen? We I I think we we discussed this briefly earlier in terms of erm if a proposal came forward it was perfectly within the remit of the applicant to make a planning application and to argue that circumstances had changed. Erm and there was nothing within the development plan system which would preclude this. Mr Heselton and then Mr Earle. Thank you sir. Terry Heselton Selby District. Very briefly because I think that the senior inspector's partly er ans answered I want to make. But erm apologies for going back to the to the discussion er yesterday but it it's merely just to remind you, picking up the point that Mr Potter's just made, that that certainly as far as Selby District's concerned that circumstances have changed very drastically since the situation of ten years ago when the er the structure plan policies were were first drawn up. Er and and this is why we ask for for greater flexibility both in the allocation and in the wording of the policy. And that's why I think I can give my qualified support to to the proposal for for an exceptions policy. I I think it it it's clearly a problem for the panel to wrestle with as as to what response can the alteration make to changing circumstances particularly in relation to er to economic development. I know we've had that debate at length in connection with the housing issue but I would just like to to leave you with that point again. Thank you. Mr Earle. Thank you Chairman. Patrick Earle Richmondshire. First of all I do have some sympathy with my colleagues from other districts who, while not being in sympathy with the policy, wouldn't want to be excluded if there's er certain development opportunities being thrown in. Having said which er I I've already pointed out that I I see no great potential for fifty hectares in in our area. But going on I'd like to pick the point made er from the Department of Environment about the exceptions policy and the way they envisage it. Because, I mean are we talking about a policy that says these exceptions from other structure plan policies erm may be judged in this way. In other words would the individual applications still be regarded as a departure from the development plan? I I that hasn't been made clear and erm you you then end up with getting down to the nitty gritty is this an application you advertise under the new procedures for ad advertising departures from the development plan? Bearing in mind that this is I suppose now going to be one of the performance indicators er that local authorities have got to er publish every year. Er so in other words it it muddies the water and it seems to me that it's quite unnoted because it be suggesting a policy which is to counteract the effect of erm section fifty four A. In other words trying to restore the status quo er the status er that that that existed before section fifty four A er and and restoring flexibility that was perceived to exist then. Now it does occur to me to wonder and I, again a personal view, to wonder whether intended that section fifty four A should be counteracted by the terms of the policies that followed it. Do you want to answer that one Mr Saunders? I think the number of er er ex I think the fact that this is merely an exception a major exceptions policy that deals only with exceptional cases and the the Humberside structure plan refers to possibly once or twice over a planned period erm might er indicate it's not intended to open to subvert section fifty four A. As for er as for departures, a strategic context in terms of a structure plan policy erm that allows for major exceptions will must surely assist in in considering any application that comes forward as a as a departure under under . Chairman. David Allenby Harrogate Sorry Mr Allenby I Mr Earle was shaking his head there. Sorry. Er is that in puzzlement or disagreement? Bit of both really Chairman. Er Patrick Earle Richmondshire. With with the greatest of respect the the point wasn't really answered. Er perhaps it is impossible to answer it in this forum but I think it remains an open question sir. Chairman I was er endeavouring to answer it actually erm my view is that erm Illuminate your colleagues underestimate go on. My my view is that er those proposals would still stand to be considered as departures to to the structure plan. Er what the policy does is to set out quite clearly, I'm really looking at the the Humberside structure plan policy as an example, as to how the material considerations would come into play in erm offsetting if you like the the pol the other policies of the structure plan. And far far from muddying the waters I think it makes clear that there are certain considerations that are acknowledged er which would allow certain proposals to come forward. Rather than rather than having a sort of under the counter scenario where er material considerations you know will be considered when it when it's a separate planning application comes in there are there an ack there is an acknowledgement or a framework which is in a formal local plan which which identifies what the main considerations will be. Thank you. Professor Lock do you want to pick up the points that have been made so we can move on ? Sir I I'm just not sure how you how you want to play this because you may feel I beginning to feel we're probably getting to the end of this circuit here . I thought I thought we'd given it a really good airing this Yeah. afternoon and I was going to ask you to sort of sum up with your views as the sort of I'm very willing to do progenitor of this er If you're feeling the moment particular animal and then ask Mr Williamson to or Mr Potter to conclude for the county. Thank you I'm very happy to do that. David Lock. The erm the discussion has been a great illumination. The erm what we've not erm what has not been er challenged is the argument that it is a good thing for North Yorkshire and for the region and for the United Kingdom and possibly for the European Union, that footloose inward investment, sorry footloose investment, of erm strategic importance should erm be capable of being attracted to this county. Nobody seems to have challenged that building brick. So it's a it's a good thing to be able to attract inward investment of that quality and significance. There is a dispute erm between my report sir or what North Yorkshire County Council actually does and what the planning erm representatives here say they do. And er you've been given a document by the county and you'll take your own view on that. Erm all I can say is the county council economic development people are are there on the ground with their helicopters and the cameras when Kimberley Clarke comes in or the Central Science Laboratory and the car people and so on of the moment. Erm in planning terms I five, that's where all these last two days string together, I five does not enable this kind of inward investment to come. There are, finding fifty hectares or thereabouts for a development of this kind and characteristic out of the districts' allocations on the one hand in their geography, you know that has to be broadly speaking within the existing settlement pattern on the other, not possible. So I five doesn't help us. E two if it was carried forward sir after this morning's discussion also doesn't help us because, as the county made clear this morning and made very clear just a minute ago, it would use such a policy, it sees its position as being to block erm the er inward investment planning terms to block it as er erm being out of tune with the county's general conservation and environmental policies. So we really do have a problem here. We've got the local authorities at both strategic and local scale quite keen to welcome inward investment. We've got a an emerging altered structure plan here which as it stands doesn't help. And so the issue the discussion has focused on, from where I'm sitting, seems to have focused on is, you know can one afford to let loose a strategic policy and could such a policy be written in a way that it would work for inward investment attraction without being a a Trojan horse as you know letting in a lot of other nasty things. Now the erm major contribution has been from the Department of Environment who have pointed us at Humberside's formulation. Not only is that generally helpful in being a recently approved structure plan that's been through the Secretary of State's hands, but of course it is also part of this region. And it is the Yorkshire and Humberside Development Association that is the one that in this locality, the county, takes the lead in attracting inward investment. Prima facie it seems to me that if erm Humberside erm finds a need for such a policy erm then the remainder of the Yorkshire and Humberside Development Association area erm should also have such a policy. So that that Association can actually employ erm the Yorkshire and Humberside area in an intelligent way and not in a divided way. I referred sir at the beginning to er the limited experience I've had in Nottinghamshire where erm a criteria based policy was put into a structure plan erm for er in that case for a prestige business development I think is what they call it, prestige business park, that was a criteria based policy as a way of containing, stopping this strategic issue becoming a Trojan horse for lots of other things. And I pointed you sir to the fact that in that county at least they found that to further contain it it helped to name districts. What I hadn't expected was the reaction we got here today which is that erm whilst there are smiling dis , he's smiling now, there are smiling districts who might be pleased to be named as areas in which a major exception might be accommodated and I hadn't expected the others would like a bit of it if there was one going too. So this all suggests to me that the establishment of fierce criteria could make this a very rare exception is the key and erm I think we've had it in the course of the discussion, it'll now be on the record, erm an exploration of the kind of criteria those could be. And erm you've got that Harrogate goes into it in some detail. But erm my closing remarks we be these sir that the the actual reality is that North Yorkshire and some of its districts want and deserve inward investment. The present planning policy framework frustrates that objective and an enabling policy framework is now required. A legitimate moment to to put it in place. Everything we've heard today this afternoon shows the disinclination of the County Planning Department to be flexible and enabling on this matter. It is just not their inclination. And so it seems to me that erm we must look to you sir and Miss Whittaker to say what you feel as er independent erm hearkeners to the debate er we it's time as I would say for erm North Yorkshire now to face up to what's going on in its own territory and remove the planning obstacles to what is actually happening and just to make sure that it's safely tied up with criteria to make sure it doesn't erm erm unhappy consequences instead of the happy consequences that we are trying to achieve. Thank you. Thank you. Mr Williamson or Mr Potter the penultimate word. Thank you. turn to Mr Potter I think he's been dying to get back on this so I wouldn't quite say that. This is the precursor to the summing up. Erm David Potter North Yorkshire County Council. Er the position of the county council is that we remain unconvinced of a need for such a policy. Er the county council acknowledges that inward investment is important but because of the nature of the local economy and competition elsewhere, I think we realistically look at it in terms of er it going to provide a small contribution to the local economy. And that's acknowledged by the Economic Development Officer. And I would add that the Economic Development Officer also acknowledges that he must work within the strategic framework which is the policy of the county council. And the county council feels that it has adequately addressed the needs of the districts within the county, erm obviously that's up to the panel to determine whether you agree with that, and we believe that the strategic framework is capable of addressing any changing needs or circumstances without recourse to a policy which we feel would reduce the clarity of the structure plan. That it? That's it. Thank you very much. Well I can draw the E I P to a close, sorry? Why? Do we? Mr Mr Donson, yes, oh that's right, we posed a question to you on the elephant analogy. What is the equivalent on affordable housing? I thinking about it over erm er coffee sir, I I I think the answer is an adder erm because its smaller than an elephant, it's indigenous to the United Kingdom, it blends into the landscape, but if you ignore it it could be just as injurious to your health. Excellent. . Well with that I think I can draw the E I P to a close . Can I say it it's er we've had a a good day from my point of view anyway. Erm some days have been better than others but I I I have in retrospect enjoyed it,heartbroke though it is. Er and from our point of view er erm the panel, erm this is only the end of the beginning for us because we've got a lot of other work to do. Er but certainly we are grateful for your participation erm some very good contributions. I'm also particularly grateful for, and I said yesterday, to our two friends in the right hand corner here who've er done some sterling work. I'm grateful to North Yorkshire and through you to the Strensall people for the arrangements and the use of the Village Hall and I think I must commend Mr Whipp for his fortitude through the last week or so. Because even if he wasn't participating he was sitting listening. Thank you very much. Chairman before before you do finally er pack your bag and zoom off back to wherever it is you're going, could I on behalf of the county council and all of our participants here today and those who've been around in the last fortnight thank you and Miss Whittaker and your assistant able assistants er Mrs Binns and Dave in the programme office for the sterling work they've done. And for making the E I P erm an interesting and er fortnight and I think er commending on the way that you er and your colleagues have handled it er all the way through and er we hope that er at the end of the day we'll get something back from you fairly quickly which er we'll act upon. I won't promise Thank you very much Chairman. I shan't promise before Christmas.. Hiya. Hello. Oh oh here comes the monster. Here comes the monster. Well Miss come and have your head cut off. Erm She's got asthma. Right. Mhm. Erm And she's got a blocked nose as well. Haven't you? Aye. She's a cold it's, it's a viral it brings it on . Aye. But erm that, the inhaler that I've got, does nothing for No? her at all. She's had her erm she's had her adenoids out and all Yeah. that. Let's have a look in your brains. for weeks. Nothing. Absolutely Ears That's a no. Your brains Ears. I was thinking and your nose. getting Ears. her vaccinated And your nose. Let's have a look in your nose. See what's going on in here. Yeah. Has your mum looked in here? Yes. Thank you. It's horrible. Yes it is. Did you see that great big black thing coming out? That's probably a bit of her brains coming through. Aargh. I w wouldn't worry about it if I was you. Now I was told that I was trying to get an appointment at the asthma clinic but they couldn't get one for fortn another full week. Right? Mhm. Yeah. So She's, she's,sh she's got sinus Sinuses. But this cough Aha. comes on and it's I'll show you. As soon as she lies down at night, this stuff runs from the sinus and Aha. right down into her tubes. Blocks . all blocked Gets them all blocked up Aha. and starts her cough. Well er see she'll b she'll be left with this now this cough Mm. for a long long time? No she won't. Sh er it's like a routine with her. We'll get that dried up for you. You think so? Mhm. I would like Oh. We will. to be referred to erm Doctor . But I saw a doctor there, a Doctor , Mhm. he was excellent before Christmas. She had a whoop whooping cough. Mhm. And he did say to me he would like to have seen her again at and monitor this, this Mhm. er cough that she's got. Now I thought I would quite like to Aha. get her referred there again. Cos Yes. she was there a couple of years ago, two or three years ago. But I was pus pushing and p pulling of course I never saw the same doctor twice. But now I feels as if I've got a sh a name of a doctor Aha. er out there. We'll soon get that If you don't mind. Mm. And you wouldn't like your head cut off? No. You're pretty miserable you know. I think you should. No. At least your mum would get peace and quiet. Her tongue. Her tongue Her tongue would do. No. Much better. Much better No. thing. A great big needle about that length, and what I'd do is I'd freeze the back of her tongue No. and then tie it up for about three weeks. Oh. Ooh. That's sounds Hey that would be brilliant. your mum thinks that would be great. No. I think so too. I think that would be wonderful. No. It's just I want least sensible she can get done as well. Both. Both. Ooh. Your mum should be so lucky. Aye. You're right. Shouldn't she? You're right. They and they're and they're guzzling they're fighting with each other and oh. Right. I'm not the only one they've all got this cold haven't they? It's . Will you give this to your wee sister as well for me? Oh. Come on. Get down. Yeah. Get your jacket on. What age is your wee sister now? Sure? Yeah . Are you sure you're not kidding me on? I I promise. Er could you give me a prescription for Calpol? Mhm. Er put your jacket on . Thanks. Oh. Could you tear this? Shall I show you the big needle? For freezing Yeah. your tongue? This here. Great big long one. Oh. Here we are. Here it is. Right on the, there, and then you can't speak. No. No . Today? No. We, well you could send direct to the house. Well we'd send Yeah. Alright. . Okay? Okay. Thank you. Bye. Goodbye Mrs . Bye. That will be Val. Er I think they have changed contractors. Again? Again. But anyway whether that's true or not the this was a s s seems to be as a result of criticism about them not turning up and this sort of thing. Erm Hi. Sorry I'm late So I had a long chat with the, with the cleansing officer and the main point I know, I know. Liz, do you want a chair? the main point that I made to him was that after such a superb beginning where, where they actually state how much rubbish we produce, there's absolutely no mention even though there's space at the bottom there's no mention of recycling at all. And he said well it's a different, you know different department. Mm. I know yes And this was, this, that, that wouldn't have entered into that brief but my argument was that, you know everybody would be much happier if there was less rubbish to put in the landfill sites in the first place. Now that was about two weeks ago and I've been sitting on it meaning to, to write to the press and say how disgusting it was. Which I have just done today. Aft , no Yes, half way through I spoke to to the environ environment officer Mm who was much more switched on. He's a new environment officer, he's only been there for a month or something. And he says that erm. He sort of agreed with me that it was a waste of an opportunity. Erm but he did say that he's actually writing a leaflet which they can run to seven or eight pages. A detailed one about recycling. anybody will read so eight pages. Well I don't know. I just don't know. But I mean he was very interested and when I said that we'd actually done a recycling directory and that I was thinking redoing it. Erm. He was very interested and he would like to meet us and I said that if he's actually doing a directory all this all this about. I thought Rob is doing a sort of recycling what do you call it composium Rob has just done a green audit for the district council. Yes. Yes. But we haven't had the opportunity to read it. I mean he knows that we have a recycling d . I was in touch with them. I sent them the recycling. Why do they pretend not to know? I mean they should be fully a aware of of of our Val well this is a new guy. is that Mr ? Mr? . The recycling officer. Is that, is the one, I wrote to Hold on . There. ? Yeah . Is that the one you spoke to? Tom . Yeah. That's him . Only he said that they were gonna get an initiative through the schools on er Is is he's the one Anyway that's that's my letter. Draft letter which I have not got, it's very very rough, for the press. Sorry I've only got four. That's alright. Actually some friends of mine were quite confused about what, why they shouldn't be able to throw their cooking oil away in their bin. Because they said they'd always done it and they had nowhere else to put it. Somebody else said oh you should throw it down the sink but I didn't think you were supposed to do that either. What? Cooking oil. Cooking oil? Yeah. If you have got one of those deep fat fryers you, you have quite a bit to throw away. Well don't put it in water. No, I don't. I don't. You put it in the bin. No, they, they've said in there you mustn't. Where? No not cooking oil. Er pet , car oil . Car oil. That's a totally different story. I'm sure But I mean the bottom bit obviously we've got to talk about whether we actually do want bifocals today new. . But this guy seems to be well worth nurturing. Yes. Here you are. It says here oh that's waste oil cooking fat and other liquids. I know it says fat collection but I Well that only should only be because erm the bin's going to be soiled. In in in in the end terribly smelly that's the reason. I mean why there shouldn't be cooking oil in in in landfill. I mean Dad Dad's not in Mm I can only think that I mean it sticks to the sides of the bin at the bottom Well if it's if it was very hot could it could it melt the plastic? It could even melt the plastic yes. Or could it ignite? Yeah. No I I definitely foodstuffs out of the water. I mean into the bin first and then wash the dishes. To keep the water clean. Mm. stuff you put in water. Yeah. Sorry? Was it printed on new paper? It doesn't say does it? Well it doesn't say, no I think, I think they put recycled if it was don't you? Well exactly that's You seen that story, what is it, one paper er if you get the letter of the week you can take part in the draw and get a flight to from Stanstead to Dusseldorf. Wh what paper's this then? I I got it last night . There was the most horrible letter in England or Britain joining the Common Market . I'll get you one of those bags. No oh you did tell me about it Yeah I did tell you. Do you, well do you then know why doesn't, isn't Rob in touch with them any more? Oh yeah, very much so. I spoke to Trish, Rob's away at the moment Yeah. but I spoke to Trish tonight. And erm But I mean he's also in the sub committee isn't he? There was this working committee wasn't it and then the sub committee to the working committee on environmental matters. No, yeah but I mean that leaflet very likely wouldn't have you know I mean I think this this leaflet No no but but that this Mr Mr , yeah but I mean didn't know Okay he should, he should have tapped us as a resource certainly. Yeah. But I mean you know I I'm certainly gonna follow this up. Mm. And I think we ought to get him over to one of our meetings. And and he said he would. And I think if we could make it get one of the Uttlesford chaps to the same meeting marvellous thing they did. Yeah. Well what he did say was don't you know don't go over the top in criticizing that because Yeah. you know he he says that there's a lot of things which are happening. He's got all sorts of schemes a lot of schemes in the pipeline. I suppose he doesn't want to be seen to be just reacting to your letter he's obviously started doing these things off his own bat anyway hasn't he? Oh yes. Yeah. I mean and and he he feels that er pressure groups like ourselves are very positive because it gives him a bit of weight when he's arguing for things. Yeah Well they can't push it from the top But I mean on a sort of wider thing erm Yeah. You know one of the things that we could do is to do another directory. Yeah. I think because I think I think But it's a real shame we're so out of date. Mhm but I I you know we we're can we actually do it? I mean we would need fifty people No I would not distribute it to deliver er from door to door. I would erm put it out in the library, put it out in in surgeries. Put it out in public places and that's it because I mean the number of people erm they went to these directories like hot cross buns. I mean every week I supplied them with a new stack of everybody wanted them. What, the recycling directory? Yeah They come through the doorstep, through the doors though. Through the door they they just throw them away. They didn't read them. I said well don't you live in Stortford, didn't you have it delivered? No. And I'm sure they'll pick them up if they see them in the If they printed print them up and they do it on their own will. Couldn't we do it with him? With him? Well yeah pro I mean they could couldn't they sponsor us to do it or something? Well yeah I I've I've whether he well I mean if, if he's gonna do this seven page thing then I you know I you can look at it two ways. Either we can influence and help that to be to be good or or you know if that's a failure then see whether they can help us to produce one for the town. Mm. I mean I'd much rather they do it if we can influence him enough. They've got the right information. Well the thing if we did it with our as they keep saying there's some, there's so much in the pipeline. I mean it might take us another two week two months before we get it out. Three months. Well I would say six months. Yeah No I would just think of something really straightforward. They do want stuff on local levels I mean if he's East Herts he's got a huge area, hasn't he? Yeah. It it might be a help to him to have little local groups that helped him out with these things. But I mean if we print something and then suddenly they instal all these new bottle banks which we didn't know about. Then they are not mentioned Well in our recycling directory and we can do the next one He should know about them shouldn't he? Well we must that's why, certainly have to, before Could you drag him along to a meeting? Yeah well that's what they said we could do that. I'll write that down. Erm, is that okay for that I just have something that I read in New Scientist does everybody take it? No Oh well I'll give you one to look at it's just a little article about Thank you. recycling in in Egypt. And I just liked reading it so much that I thought you'd like to read it too. Don't have to read it now cos it's quite long. It's it's it's really hot . Cos they they reuse absolutely everything. And they make they're living out of it. In East German they are now drowning in rubbish because they used to have a perfect recycling scheme everything was collected and recycled cos they just didn't have the materials. Now they are flooded with the West European goods their recycling isn't worth any more. On the other hand they haven't got the landfills and the whole scheme that the west has developed and they I mean it's a health hazard meanwhile. One of the major problems they have to face. Far East lots of guys sort of collecting cardboard boxes and that's all they did they flatten down cardboard boxes and then another one did newspapers and whole newspapers and The whole town is composed of a Yeah. it's like a big . I just thought it was interesting. Erm I did write er as was suggested asking about erm facilities for cyclists in the potential shopping centre development in Bishop's Stortford. And they are, they are interested in cyclists but from what I could make out reading this they're not really going to help us a great deal. If you want to pass it round and read it. It's it's they're gonna use the green wedges that are already there and the existing footpaths which are already cycled along. What, what good is that to me? It's just in Stortford it's not that easy for a cyclist is it? No And they've got all the places say don't lean your bicycle here and you're not allowed to take it into Jackson One girl nearly got knocked off going up Newtown Road. It's really quite narrow as you're going up there. What about the all the cars all parked round corners everywhere like up at Havers. Mm. They could do something about that. Have you every cycled up there? Not round Havers,wh they park where those, those sort of shops are they they park all around the corners so that you have to go out round them. And of course you meet something coming the other way wrong side of the road. Oh yeah. What annoys me is that everybody parks on the pavement as well. Mm. Seem to disobey all laws there are about parking. It does, it doesn't really help us does it? Do you wanna pass these around as well if anyone wants to look. All the replies got eleven or so replies that I've had for that questionnaire. There are a few people willing to help aren't. But I haven't gone really as I hoped cos I'd envisaged having the membership list with sort of names of who'll make cakes, who'll help on the stall and then know who to phone Yeah. when I wanted some help or who to invite to meetings but because I haven't got a reply from everyone or most people, it can't work does it? Is that all the replies you got? sent more than fifty out. I did sixty and Caroline copied even more . She's a good girl. Did Georgina reply? Erm did actually, yes. Yeah, cos when I phoned she said she's still quite interested. Mm. Yeah I thought she was but she said if the baby . And I've got a local group summer questionnaire which I couldn't really fill in. . Isn't it awful! I thought I'm just as bad as you know everybody else really. Cos I wasn't sure of some of the answers. And that it it's saying which of the following days of action has the group participated in. I mean cos we haven't really sort of really done a proper day of action have we? We've done little bits and pieces. I know we did the returnable bottles. . I mean cos and we did that stall on peat but we didn't really take part in the peat day of action did we? .What do you think? Fiona and I did the electricity What at the supermarket . Is that the global warming and electricity privatization? That one? Was it? It was erm efficiency of Oh fuel and efficiency. Right that one then. Oh we didn't, we didn't do the ozone layer one did we? Did you do a stall on that ozone layer? We did do something. With the Oh we did, yes. with the, with er snow remember? That was Christmas last year wasn't it? Oh yes that was That was ozone. Yes it was we did Oh so I'll put down for that then. Oh it looks quite good . Right. Have you written to your MP about fuel efficiency? Yes I did. We did. I know erm I thought I wrote to the electricity board in, I wrote to somebody about erm how er things should be labelled about how efficient they are when using electricity. You took part in the er electricity efficiency didn't you? Yes. Yeah but didn't, we didn't write to our MPs though. I thought we were supposed to write to somewhere else was it the department of the environment or now what would it be, energy? We wrote, wrote to them cos I've got a reply to that letter somewhere with a great wad of information about various fridges and Yeah, yeah and things. Yeah So I can't really say we've written to the MP can we? We haven't found out about company car fleets have we? We tried. Well I tried and then I was let down by the group. I don't remember anything about that one We arranged it two days or three days and each was cancelled March ninety one? . In March this year? It was this year. Last year. Last year. I didn't think we'd done anything about that this year. But that was last year. Yeah. But we haven't done a march ninety one then. Scanned the local press for power station applications or authorizations H M I P. Written to Michael Heseltine about acid rain? May ninety one. Written to your MP to ask him her to press for strict E C standards for C O two emissions from vehicles May ninety one. when was that? Wasn't that on the talk? Do you remember this talk we had that was last year. Er writing a letter to Chris Patten about the protocol. Yeah. So that was, that was early this year. Yeah written something. That to do with the ozone layer. I don't know. It it's mostly sort of things about energy. Isn't it? Questionnaire. That's definitely to do with the C F C's Yeah well this is C O two in in cars, private cars. Yeah things to do with er emissions and written that? In May ninety one? Yeah sounds about right. Ask local car dealer to write to car manufacturers to press for the introduction of more fuel efficient cars? May ninety one. No. Lobbied your local authority on peat use? Not really did we? Erm joined the newsprint campaign?no. Written up details of recycling campaigning experience for and sent it to . No. Why me? . Complained to your MP about the national road traffic forecast. No. Looked out for threats to S S I's. Have we got them? S S I's. Sites of special scientific interest. Have we got any in ? Mm. No. No I didn't think we had. No, I don't think so. Sorry? Do you own your No! Do you? We we have acquired a large chunk of the the yes. So you should, you should nominate that as a site of the interest shouldn't you? Erm it's valuable but not that valuable. But it says here, written written to Linda Chalker about the I T P O. Now I, I rang, I sent a postcard which was ready written. Do you think that counts? Promoted the . Well we did try. Yeah, put that we did do that. Didn't get very far though did we? Actually that seems to have fizzled out. Haven't heard anything about that for a while. Erm written to the government in U K bank about the bank propose new foreign policy. I think we might have done that. I think we might have done that. I know that I've written to British gas. And I think I wrote world bank. That was, thing is that was quite a long time ago. I'm sure it wasn't this year. This is February ninety one. it's alright but you get to the bottom of those stairs and sometimes . Er check locally for claims of environmentally or sustainable tropical hardwood it's not really, I mean I do look when I go to all these D I Y places to see what they've got. Haven't really local wood guides ? Well Rob's got two cos I'm just deciding on a new window frame. And all the firms are claiming that they only get their hardwood from government erm replanting programmes. And one got a stamp and a seal on that. But whether that is acknowledged by our Friends of the Earth I don't know because I mean they have so many stamps and seals on They won't give you names now will they? The Friends of the Earth . They won't give you names of companies any more. No but if this stamp, this acknowledgement. Oh it's like a little is it? good government scheme or not. Whether that is known by Friends of the Earth as a good scheme or not. I think there's a day of action coming up on this sort of D I Y stuff. so maybe we'll get some more information about that. I'm gonna try and get the book back from Rob. Martin's an architect and and it actually probably would be you know it might be a good thing to actually sort of provoke a question with architects because they do specify these things and they're the ones who actually say you know right we'll specify hardwood . It's one of the decisions that are actually made by them in terms of what they use so erm that could be something that is Yeah round to architects just sort of provoking the question cos they, a lot of them have never thought about it Mm. and er you know if they did erm I mean Martin asked about the, he asked about the good wood guide you know and I told them where they can get it but that they can have it in their office and put it in their library. You know so that, that's quite a good idea. Yeah But that's so quickly out of date again you see the good wood cos I mean they they have new government schemes, schemes every year don't they? Mm. And new other schemes. And What, at least it will enable you to know what the tropical species are because some of them have got quite weird and wonderful names and most people don't know what some of them are. Mm. I know mahogany is citello . I noticed they had some Philippine mahogany doors in Do It All Mm. on Saturday and yet, that you have to be careful because they they have that I've forgotten what her name was on on Wogan saying next time you go into a D I Y store and you see a mahogany toilet seat you know don't boy buy it think of the forest. Well if you go into a D I Y store you'll find it's a mahogany stain I don't know if they really make mahogany . It would be very expensive Yes you'd probably gauge by the price I would think. Yeah. Plastic plastic. plastic one. Erm oh Yes actually this cycle thing . Cycle parking is actually I wish they'd actually pay a bit more places to actually put your bike and you didn't have to sort of tie it up to some lamppost or something Yeah, yeah. There's hardly anything I mean they could give you a decent stand to put it in cos I hate those ones at Sainsbury's. Cos if you've got anything heavy in the bag, the bike falls over. The ones at the library as well. Er and they ought to have a little shelter over it to stop your saddle getting wet if it rains . I've got, I mean I've got my spots where I park it, I, it at Woolworth's and outside the post office because it keeps it dry. And out of the way. All the roads into town are just awful. I mean the Dunmow Road, Hockerill Oh yeah. You know really scary. You know you get asphyxiated with petrol fumes and then you get the danger of being thrown off your bike. cycling Yeah they squeeze you off the road if you go up that hill to Hockerill lights. I You must to cat. Just walk slowly in the middle of the road. So that there's no way they can take overtake on the right or on the left. That's the only way. Our cat, and I've really watched her makes a point of going and walking slowly in the road. And I think that is exactly what we have to do as cyclists. Not squeeze to the side because they might not see you there. right Well you sh you're supposed to ride a fair way out from the gutter, never in the gutter so they can see you round the bends. Yeah but And they often hoot you if you're doing it but that's the place That is their fault if they hoot. Erm especially going up that hill at Hockerill lights. They overtake you and then they slow right down so that you have to go oohooh and stop. You can't cycle that slowly up a hill can you? They come in too quickly on, once they've passed you They don't they're in like that aren't they straight in front of you. frightens me . cycle underneath a car today . Oh dear. Michael 's got helmet. That's a good idea. Yes idiot wearing it though. If everybody looks like him! Oh well. I mean it looks alright if you've got all the gear on you know cycling shorts and top and everything make them like swimming hats with lots of little flowers all over them Yeah. But if you do get one you have to be careful you get one that's done to the proper standard because some don't work apparently. absolutely nothing. Well that's what I thought it just seemed to say they were gonna have sort of cycle ways going through the green wedges along where I cycle already. Mm. And that's no help at all is it. we can't complain. That should do quite well in trying to get the traffic away from the centre in Stortford anyway. Mm. They were talking pedestrianizing I think that's been on, on the cards for a long time hasn't it? Yeah. Pedestrianizing and they've never done it. Sorry! Erm Wh have we done anything about the environmental charter? Because I started doing it a long time ago Yeah, yeah Bob did that didn't he? It vaguely Yeah and we presented it and then it fizzled. The group fizzled out because we presented the charter. And that was the aim of It asks here have they adopted it? Erm wouldn't or we aim to still try. Well . I I think, I've a funny feeling that did adopt it but quite how much that means I don't understand. Well it's awful, having to do this questionnaire we, we've done . All these workshops that have been going on that we haven't been to. Well they just kind of recognized the principles don't they but they don't ensure that they'll actually put them into practise. That's what adopting means it's not actually committing . Yes I thought they had, yes. How about these questions. Does the group have a constitution? No. Does the group have an office? No. We've got our plastic box! Plastic? I know I know everybody will be disappointed but I couldn't get cardboard ones, stick it all in. We bought the storage boxes anyway to keep all the . No but you can't really I mean that's what supposed to have it like an actual proper office. You can't have all in cardboard boxes. It's erm not easy to organize. You can't and keep them open at the same time. What is the most common problem you've experienced in your dealings with Street? It's phoning them up and the person I want to talk to isn't there! I think. Have you had any, anybody else phone them up or written to them? No? No. I think they're quite abrupt and rude whenever I've phoned them up. Are they? They're not terribly friendly. Oh they're usually okay I, I mean what they don't know . I mean I just find it annoying cos you get through to somebody who then passes you on to somebody else and then they'll talk to you and say well the person you want to talk to isn't here at the moment so you've had all this phone call and then you've got to ring again. And you have to do it in office hours as well. What has been your proudest moment this year? Oh that was Rob. When he was able er to enter the sub committee. Oh yes. He was really proud of that and he, he made a point of that being I'll write that down. for him years of struggle to get any influence to finally find himself Oh good one. What sort of committee is it then? Hearing aid! Well I think one does speak a bit louder in public meetings, it's just . And I I can only do this work I'm sorry. Sorry I didn't hear Oh I I didn't hear either. Turn that thing off. I was asking what sub committee it was. Er the environmental. They had a working committee didn't they and a sub It's East Herts isn't it? I think. Was it East Herts? East Herts, yeah. Yeah East Herts. Environmental sub committee? Yeah. He sits on it. Well he had this environment mental officer, they they in inaugurated him then at this meeting meeting when erm the thing you handed over Charter. The environment charter. Why's it a sub committee? What happened to the proper committee as well. Yeah. reports then back to the proper actual coun the er The work's committee district council meeting. Well I know at district council there was two environmental groups, was it the officers group and the members group. Oh. I wonder which group Herts county council. Cos when I was on the Hertfordshire Environmental of the group which has folded I've got all this money in the Abbey National and there's no, no group any more, I think I'll have to keep Keep quiet. I'll have to send it off to . But anyway it transpired that there were two groups sort of working towards the same end and nobody could work out what sort of erm role each played and it was terrible. Because you knew that they both had to agree before anything was done. Oh. I suppose that was one way of nothing being done. Yes, they didn't communicate. The officers group and the members group that was right. Right. Anyway. Onwards. Erm there's going to be a sort of event at the Rhodes Centre. Erm for one world week on the twenty fourth of October and we've been asked to do a stall there. Which I said yes to without asking anybody so I hope that's alright. What date is it? October the twenty fourth. That's a Thursday. We're doing a Traidcraft stall? Oh yes You what? Well he wanted to know who the Traidcraft person Oh really. And he said, he said he tried to phone you up and I said oh don't worry. Cos any you always get the answerphone. could leave a message . is it? It's at the Rhodes Centre Thursday October the twenty fourth. Well if we do a stall I would really like to have at least a leaflet on new recycling. Yeah okay. So that we have, I mean nothing of design or anything just short information because I think it's so Right. out of date. Yeah. I know, and he said you could sell things as well now. I don't know what you think, I just wondered did we ought to order anything from Friends of the Earth catalogue like those sort of things to sell. Cos that, I mean they're always going to be useful I use them myself and I expect you all Mm. The question is the quantity Er yeah I've no idea. Well I mean I I know what Barbara feels about this. She feels that erm at the, the level that we are working at it is really coun be counter productive to hold stock. Because however hard you try stock deteriorates. Yeah. Erm but I you know I feel that that very often we don't sell stock Well couldn't we just have a few things and I feel that if we did have stock then then we would erm sell it. So I mean that that's two ways of looking at it. Certainly if we've got some stuff in a box Well I mean we needn't buy the expensive things like sweatshirts Shall I try at erm Cambridge? I mean it's October. Yeah but they, will they, they won't sell you on at a discount will they? Cos if we all But I mean I I just know that that Harlow tried stock keeping and selling, they gave up. I know that er in Hertford they were quite desperate. All came up with the same idea and they wanted to do it. And in the end they came to Barbara's conclusions so that its a an expensive thing. But I mean if we only had like the writing paper and the envelopes and re-use labels, small items of stationery the stickers and I mean they still do yeah. But I mean I I expect, I mean even we had some left over e eventually you could sell them to our own members because they'd all want to use it Mm. and it's cheaper than ordering it off the catalogue. That's a good idea about Cambridge isn't it? You could borrow there stock, is that what you're thinking and then take back what we didn't sell. That's what I mean I've never talked to them so I I don't know yet Well if they would let us borrow it, that's a different matter to buying it from then because we then wouldn't make any money on it. Well I don't, I have never heard of a local group that makes money out of this selling. Well you you buy it all at thirty three or twenty five percent discount so you can then sell it at a bit more. But then you have then you have the stuff that doesn't sell and deteriorates and you still have to have paid for it so I think it's possible to make a bit of money but at at at the rate you know I feel we're all the time putting the cart before the horse. Erm you know if if we are going to try to keep going as a viable group then yes one of the things we should consider I mean I I don't I've come here sort of thinking oh is this it, is this the crisis meeting or is it you know erm I mean I feel so so passionately that that we should keep going but Mm. I also feel just that I am able to contribute next to nothing in terms of time so and I think w we're almost all in that situation. Erm you know we sort of seem to limp from one meeting to another without really committing ourselves to anything much. And you know if we were able to commit ourselves to two public, two meetings, three meetings of some sort in a year where we're actually gonna do something and present some sort of front Par part of presenting some sort of front is to try to sell a few bits of pieces if we're prepared to accept that we're going to lose money. Yeah. I mean if we, we're preaching you should use recycled products we, if we had a few to sell at least Mm. Yeah. I mean you you're be selling your Traidcraft stuff I mean Which why why does Barbara believe it's okay to sell that but not No, well we're, we're in exactly the same problem with Traidcraft. You know we we used to sell thousand of pounds worth a year and now we're down to couple of thousand a year and we're s , we are losing money on that. Mhm. No we're not actually losing money but I mean with Traidcraft we are getting to the low point where we put borrowed stock Well that's the recession isn't it? Or Well, what I thought was with this one world week thing at least people that, who go might be more receptive to what we have to say to show and sell . Yes we've done really well with with Traidcraft because that is, that's the whole reason for the the the concert and they're gonna have this concert in there as well and people will be buying tickets to go to. Yeah. And I don't know an awful lot about it and there's going to be all these stalls. Where they're coming obviously because they believe in that sort of thing so Two or three years ago one world week was a full week of all sorts of different activities which were all very well attended. It's sort of dwindled very rapidly Has it. down to, I d I don't even know what happened last year. Mm We just had a stall didn't we? But it Or was that last year what seven or eight of us wasn't it? At St Michael's? The church. Yeah. That was last year or was that two years ago? Er There was something at St Michael's but I didn't know it was the one world week. Yeah I have never been involved in a one world week event at St Michael's. I thought there was one there . You certainly were there. In the church No I don't I don't think Yeah. Anyway I mean hopefully this this will be sort of you know if it's well publicized it it will be well attended because of the past. I think we might as well get in a few things and anyway I want some envelope re-use labels . I've run out completely. There you are so many packets already. Well if you don't want Traidcraft's re-use labels I don't care! Oh! I didn't know you did them! Well erm Doesn't matter does it well apart from this leaflet on recycling facilities, what else shall we have? On the stall. Well who's gonna do the leaflet? I will. I think we ought to sort that out Well that will be, I personally think that's the only thing we can do. And we should just sort of say what is necessary to find out and everybody gets a few telephone numbers or telephone calls check out addresses find out about new ones, get in contact with the district council erm what is in the pipeline. Find out about Uttlesford possibly why there's is running and whether that is going to br breakdown. Erm and if we then find money for printing it I would approach Barclays Bank, banks, local banks and would it do it very modestly the same local the same style er and only hand it out to places where people are likely to pick it up. And not bother about . I mean charity shops erm library, hairdressers, surgeries Boardman as I know I think that's a very sensible idea actually rather than er trying to do the whole town. Because that was er you know I mean it got the group together Yeah I thought because everybody had the same experience. I liked the experience because I had never done it. Mm. what a waste of time. The number of people I've talked to that I definitely knew had got and never knew they had got it. Mm. Yeah I mean but on the other hand the there's probably quite a few that did read it. I mean I know when we moved house I had folder and one of each had got in it the recycling directory Mm which is quite a nice surprise! I mean had they had they sold to someone outside Bishop's Stortford Yeah. then they could Yeah. Erm I think we have to have something if we have a stall. We lost all the erm cartoons original cartoons. Yeah. Oh that's a shame. Well I could photocopy that couldn't you. Yeah. The detail difficult to see what it is. But erm Oh that's a real shame. Otherwise I will just do it in a different colour, a different I mean then then then reshape the inside. Yeah. Er something before I I always forget everything. The German Friends of the Earth's people told me never to do the washing on Monday mornings. I mean that's something to put there as well I think. Because it's a peak time for electricity and the Electricity Board er produces according to peak demands. That's got nothing to do with recycling has it? No. I know but No. But you do you think honestly though that that really does still hold true because if everyone ha mostly having automatics now you just wash as you go you don't have a washing day or is it specially Monday they Like I've got just automatically I wanted to do washing this morning. Really? I don't. I just put it, when it gets too bad you know if haven't got any clothes to It's an interesting though. I didn't know that they produced according to peak Yeah, I think it's important to know It's very important to know, yes. erm whatever. Don't do it Monday mornings. I usually do mine at midnight when I get home! Yes. A lot of people do it overnight Yeah. but it's not really a good idea because if something goes wrong with your machine you're not there to deal with it. I mean I've had mine flood and I've had its thermostat go and it boiled everything. I mean that would have been a disaster I mean it's only because I was upstairs and I thought oh I can smell boiling. You know it was like when you boil up hankies I thought what a! . There was dye came out of everything it was awful. And another time it was all pouring all over the floor The other thing I mean to be healthy it's more important to dry things and keep them dry for a while than to boil them. Bacteria survive heat for a short time. Yeah. But they don't a for the percentage of bacteria that survives drought is is minimal. So you don't need to boil logically. Er if you just keep your hankies iron them, keep them dry. Then they are, then they are sterile. be bothered. Anyway, back to the point. He said pointedly. Well leaflet. stall. We've got to get back to the stall. Yeah er the recycling leaflet. Who's gonna do it? It's not gonna be done if we don't get somebody to actually front you know well take it on The thing is that I I can do revamp it on computer. Because it w you can scan What ma manually? No you just stick it on a photocopier I see I wa before you do that I'll get in touch with the guy who drew it and if he if he has got an original copy he might be able to erm to er What, what you can do is you can then get basically you get the computer to type that out type that out. Ah. And then you just do a run, you don't have to go on to print it at all you just print it off. That's one option Then photocopy the rest of it. I've got a laser printer yeah so I mean that's what I use for my business. I've got a Mackintosh and a laser printer. So I mean I've got some recycled paper but but Well Traidcraft's got loads to sell. Not doing very well are you No! because I have this erm dilemma. Whether to just photocopy off a very good original Yeah or do we print the whole lot. And we came to the conclusion it was cheaper to print Oh than photocopy. What it's a bit slow isn't it? Yeah it depends, well you can get get it to run through copies but the problem is that the cartridges for these printers they, they cost about fifty pounds. Mm They're not cheap. So if I can do one run and then photocopy it. Mm. It a is actually a lot better because you can get them usually get them down to about five p a copy. Well won't you lose, lose definition on the drawing though with a laser printer? No. No? No it's even better Oh that's alright. Okay, no it's, I'm just going by the one at school and it, because it's all made up of little dots you No, this is a laser printer. This does it absolutely it's not a dot printer it's it is a laser printer . Oh, well he keeps calling it his laser printer!seen it in action we don't see that well. So you, you said you could do it for five p a copy? Well I r , I r , I reckon I reckon you can down to that, yeah. That's printing both sides. Yeah. double sided printer and I I'll try and get that verified but I think we could sell it I think we could sell it for Yeah. ten p or twenty p. Oh that that would be a different ball game, selling it in places wouldn't it? Oh yeah. Ho how many That's our, I mean, you know you can go round in newsagents or doctor's surgery and dump them. But to actually say right can you s can you collect the money for us! Well one could put a box next to it. Well in some places, yeah . Yeah but I mean, mm. a copy's a lot. It is, yeah. Well although I mean it I'm not suggesting that isn't cheap but erm to produce at five p a copy Oh yeah. thousand it's gonna cost what's it gonna cost? Er. What's five thousands? Five thousands. Fifty pounds. Mm. Mm. I mean I'm, I'm, I'm only going on the fact that I I tend to do everything on the cheap so I tend to get if I can find somebody who does photocopying I can do it then we'll do it. For me to produce that'll cost me basically my time and my my you know I, say my laser copies' paid for by my business erm copies. So I mean if I, if I produced for instance si five or six masters and then people can go and do copies here and there that's actually not a bad way of doing it. And that'll be, I've got about a ream of, well it's only about a ream paper. Just pr producing new copies as you need them rather than produce five thousand and I think we we have sort of hundreds to throw away in the end. But I it to to er recycling. Yeah. Well I'll get in touch with this East Herts guy to get all his information. Good. Mm. But erm You know, we need to find out where to take somebody needs to collect somebody needs to be a contact for getting all the information to by a certain date. Well you can get it through me, yeah. Okay. Tesco do they actually do now? No. Has anybody been there? No. Well they collect aluminium cans. Oh do they? Yeah, that's what I was told. I acted on what everyone had told me I then asked my friend who had a contact in Tesco's about it she said well there is one. It's just inside the doors, where you don't see it. walk in like that and you're looking at all the things in the shop not where It's not in the recycling centre. Why don't they put it in the recycling centre? I think it's cos, it looks like it's made out of cardboard. It's, it's probably run by the scouts. They're in charge of it like Yeah, cos there's one at the swimming pool isn't there? Yeah. Yeah. Mm. Does anybody know anything about, there's this little note in about erm recycling paper, all sorts of paper magazines, cardboard er on the first Monday of the month. Does anybody know anything about that? Is this for Boots? every first Monday of the mo month is the Birchanger scout scout and he gave me that information repeatedly and he's terribly involved. It, it's fantastic. Right, yeah. I'm always worried that his enthusiasm is stretched to the limit No, no I mean the number of pe . I've just passed my A levels I've got loads of papers going what can I do. Well I said, ring Birchanger scouts! And as far as I know he always . I mean the address is on there anyway. Yeah, oh right. Is it? Oh. er quite pertinent actually if we are actually going to do one. What? To ask people sorry in my, in the letter Yeah. to the press, ask people to er submit any information. Yeah. Oh what you mean you're gonna put at the bottom of the of, the same letter or Well, yes. Yeah. just write down all the information we've got now so there is can recycling at the swimming pool and at Tesco privately run. Swimming pool Erm swimming pool who's going to get the information who runs that? Who? Mm? Well I can do that I suppose. Well who runs what? The swimming pool Because I know the scouts do the Tesco one and whenever they are put in these cardboard boxes they have to be sorted so somebody must sort them. Oh they're not, they're not asking sorting, oh I see. Erm so there must be somebody responsible and I think if, if we write swimming pool and people take their cans there Yes we'd have to check. erm I should first check. Check with them, yeah quite. So I I do, you do Tesco. I'll do the swimming pool. I, I, I would check who actually is responsible for that . But of course all paper now is All paper? All paper. What about this chap then? It's in the library th with his number. Well, you ring him but if he, if he gets upset or, or Oh I see. it's it's strange you can give that as an address. Any Uttlesford town of some size has got a comprehensive recycling centre now that takes any paper Do you have to sort it? Do you have to take it sorted? No. No. It's just a big skip? And it says at Stanstead Do they then sort it? the car park No, they it's the council collects it and in Uttlesford, that's why I said we should get at the same time an Uttlesford councillor because I would Yes, yeah like to know a, whether their new scheme is only temporary, is about to break down. Mm. Or whether they actually get the disposals cost incorporated into this skip collecting cost. Because the money they can get for this mixed paper must be a pittance. Mm. Almost hardly worth their while but If you look at the tonnage kept out of the landfill Yeah. it might work. Yeah, but I mean it it So where's this place in Stanstead then, do you know? Erm if you go in, along Cambridge Road there's the turning to the right isn't there the first when you come up the hill. At the monument,th th whatsit hill. Chapel Hill. Chapel Hill. Chapel Hill. You go down there do you? And it's by the library isn't it? Mm. go down it's it's first left once you've turned right at You know where the library is? Opposite, opposite there isn't it? Opposite the fire station? Near the white house round the back of the white house. Where the health centre is. Yes, round the back of those few little shops in London Road. And you can take anything. You can take erm any drink can unsorted. You can take glass and you can take pa papers. And in Saffron Waldren suddenly thought you still got to have a little holdall membership forms in it, haven't you? With all that peat and stuff. they even take er pills. With all that Do they? Oh that's interesting to know Remember w we did that peat they had a box that had a national membership forms in. We could have that on the stall couldn't we? Oh yes,w I mean we have got various leaflets produce still which is in reasonable condition. I've got Yeah. Yeah we could take that you know membership and our own membership forms as well. What pub is that then? Did you say a pub? A pub, yeah, in front of the pub er in . Just before the Oh the one in . Yeah. Before you go to St Michael's school, the pub. What is it called? Oh yeah, it's The Oak isn't it? The Royal Oak? Yeah cos that's next door but one to me so, yeah. Oh that's where you are. Yeah. Well anyway that is a new item on the recycling directory Right Oh they've got one near those shops in Humana? Could you find out what happens to the ? Yeah I know they come er there's a big lorry comes and collects them. Yeah. But whether they are sent to the third world or torn into rags or Yeah Well you've got the, I mean industry uses rags. wiping up oil and things like that. I might c call . If I see them collecting I'll ask . And then if you're collating you have to ring. Yeah. Erm find out from Oh well I'll get the the charity shops what they want Havers shops Yeah. address Oh right. Charity shops. Ah er the other item that we must mention is any extra plastic bags Yeah, I'll ask about plastic bags. are extremely welcome in any charity shop. Now, what about engine oil? Because oh actually we've got some in our garage now sitting there and waiting to go somewhere. The council takes it. The council takes it? Yes I'm almost certain. I mean a visit to the council to find out exactly what they do take would be Mm. But can you take it back to garages as well? No. No. No. Halfords Halfords in Harlow is one that that that we found out took it. But I ce ce I'm almost certain the council takes it. Yeah I remember big bins wasn't sort of sure what else They also take batteries. I know that. Car batteries. Do they? Car batteries. The car batteries That's the council? to get money at at Right. But what about erm little batteries? I I'm collecting those. Yeah. You are collecting them? What happens to radio batteries? Are still doing it? Yeah. And they bring them up to me Ah I'm just waiting for a day of action on . What do English er what do the English do with batteries and then dump them! In those letters Ursula th there's Yeah? a letter which says they they have stopped doing it. Oh yeah. That Photostad have stopped doing it. Oh. About the second, quite early on isn't it? Oh yeah I was I was gonna say it's about the last one! Think you were reading them upside down! Well they only, they only er took the batteries over to me before we left on holiday. So they must still be doing them and that was two huge boxes. Oh. Er I know they are not very happy Well that needs a check that needs needs another check I I would guess. Yeah. And I quite honestly I don't I I'm going to say about back to this erm sump oil. My brother-in-law said he read in the paper that erm over a year sort of the amount of oil tipped on our land and down drains which shouldn't be there is almost like equivalent to the disaster at Exxon Valdez. I heard that. Th erm the amount of oil that people just tip on the ground, or down the drains or whatever Mm. over a year is equivalent to the disaster of the Exxon Valdez. So really people ought to be trained to take their engine oil out There's this, there's this er out of sight out of mind principal You are fined you are heavily fined in Germany and for decades already. You were not allowed to wash your car on a normal street because oil would automatically be flushed into into the guttering, into the They must be going absolutely mad about East Germany mustn't they? Well it's just so incredible that this oil has never been I mean nobody focused on it did they? No. People just don't think. They just tip it oh tip it down the drain. Same with petrol stations I mean the way they spill the petrol. I know! There used to be safety catch mechanism Yeah. but there isn't now is there it just comes splashing out. Well really I mean with quite a few you really have to watch out which is they had a row at erm petrol station when that happened to her. And they said it was our car. and, and it went, cos it was quite a bit more worth petrol that went all over the place. And she refused to pay. And they me up about it. I, I sort of denied all knowledge . I didn't know it had happened! I think they were being most unreasonable. We at the time the attendant said it was alright. She didn't have to pay for it. it could easily I mean will be shorter I think. Sorry? fewer localities now. This will be shorter. I think we can easily put erm pits for daily life or how to be environmental. And then Oh a few tips. Oh With respect I really think it ought to be recycling and nothing else. Mm. Well I just find these, I mean we had quite a few now Cos recycling sort of comes into the tips for daily life as well though doesn't it. It's part of it. Like protecting people don't just save bottles they save their glass jars seem to be patronizing people when really you just want to give information. as well. People don't always think of. Yeah. Re-using things, re-using things is almost the same as recycling isn't it? Re-use? Yes. Yeah! I suppose it's I mean Well it is really isn't it? re-using is better than recycling. Yeah. Erm. So. Erm I take So it Reduce or re-use, recycling? Has anybody got a con punchlines are much better than sort of er . Because people'll read those. Well you can write save money across the top then Well I, I wrote actually that article for the the Herald and Post that has appeared in Harlow but not here. A whole load of tips like that. Oh. Now every week I open Herald and Post and think oh it's gonna be in there, it's gonna be in there but it never is. It's only appeared in Harlow and she told me it would get in the Bishop's Stortford one but it hasn't so far. It's a bit annoying really. Who does all the schools? As to recycling. They must be checked. What about asking Caroline? School. Well I mean somebody who knows the teachers or Yes. That's gonna be a difficult one cos they don't always want I will I'll do the schools. Yeah. erm the general public walking into their Yeah. . We ought to split the schools because there's quite a lot of them. I'll do the primary you do the secondary. I'll do the secondary. What about that? Okay. Primary. Well I think Boy's High were active in between weren't they? Whether they er still are. How about St Mary? I I found that erm erm littered all over the place! St Mary is wall! The P E Do they still do it? the P E teacher is supposedly collecting aluminium cans and we've been through various daft schemes of stopping the children from throwing the cans everywhere because we've got this coke machine. And we even had one where they paid a ten p deposit on a can so they paid forty p instead of thirty or whatever. And I got hardly any cans back. Or they did was b buy them from the school canteen where they were still thirty! And the coke machine wasn't used. Well why not er encourage the canteen to charge forty They didn't but then they had as well? Well, they won't because they they they have to make money in order to survive. The more money they make the better for them. They have to run it as a business now. For profit I'm afraid. Er oh I did have one Polish lad who's now left who used to go round looking for all the cans and he'd then collect the ten p's! scheme folded. Through lack of support. So what else is mentioned here? I think that still holds. And I can check, I will go and . And car batteries is the same. Other batteries I'll check. Pills er you check Yeah. . Furniture erm yeah I think that's. Is there a second hand furniture shop now in Bishop's Stortford? There is one isn't there? Is there one down by the Causeway? Yes there is. Who is going to check that? Well I can check it. Yeah. Yeah? Whether they take Yes. Yes. I mean whether they want any . Right. Okay. Could I just borrow your pen and I'll write that down. Thanks. Are Red Cross still taking furniture in Stortford? Now where is Red Cross? Erm Well I think the furniture you have to take down to Ware when I last phoned. There's a number in the er when I was Church Street so that's a few years now so it needs to be checked . Would you do that? So it's whether they take furniture? Okay. Newspapers I think that is normally isn't it? Do you think people are folded What's that shop in the Causeway near the sunbed erm it it's a second hand furniture in there isn't it? Is it? But h I mean are people in the habit of wanting to get rid of furniture? I mean I mean if it, if it's really grotty I mean Well you can get I mean, according to the leaflet you can just phone up and get the council to collect . No . Glass, we haven't got any bottle banks. And that's where we need to contact what is in the pipeline Yeah. bottle bank somewhere. Yeah there's, there's one at Sainsbury's now isn't there which is new since that. Yeah there is Thorley Sainsbury's. Thorley Sainsbury's. They have one now? They do. Yes. Oh! They suddenly found the room. Yes actually. Well in a parking block. Er would anyone like coffee? No thank you. one, two. Now what was it, I mean or would you prefer anything else? some tea? Tea? I'll I'll go and check . One thing I struck me this week there's a new regulation as regard punctures on tyres because I had this completely flat tyre and a whole new set of tyres and I said to him well can't you mend it, can't you put an inner tube in like I I've done before cos there was a nail in it you see. Yeah. And I said just get the nail out and re repair the inner tube he said no it's the there's a new regulation this year that if the outer case of the you know the tyre has tea. they're not allowed to repair it because safety regulations because the whole expanse and then supposedly the actual puncture comes off. And I said well what happens to these extra tyres? Right. So he sa , I mean does anybody know anything about anything like that? No, no. Presum I mean I just lost four I know this I just know about about a sort of friend of ours is making money meanwhile in Germany . He found well of course erm connections so he got the permission through the embassy. He's now running lorry loads of worn tyres to Russia, to the Soviet Union and makes money loads of money because the tyres, they couldn't ha get any tyres so the tyres he saw there were totally without profile. You know. Yeah. So the old tyres he could erm find in Germany were a lot better. He carted them over. . Making thousands out of it. Yeah. Well people do that here though don't they? Se sell them to Africa and places yeah . alright if it doesn't rain actually so it wouldn't matter if they didn't have treads on er treads on the tyres if it's dry it doesn't really matter you just go round slicks and I think could chop them up and use them to make road surfaces with. Yeah but percentages is Mm. At least you know they can do it! Mm that's right. Oh they can do quite a lot of it. I mean even the, the su surface out of the play in playgrounds . Mm. I can never quite work out why that . most roads So, so far I've got two coffees here and one tea. Anybody else for anything? I'll have a coffee please. Coffee? Black please. Black coffee. White. White. White. So we've got about six weeks in which to do this. So how many weeks I mean there's no excuse I all the jobs are quite quickly done aren't they? Yeah. So what we ought to have a deadline for collect collecting the information. And then get together Yeah. to put it together. And then decide on And how to And how to get, how to get it to put it together. Shall we say three weeks? Three weeks Yeah. probably for everybody just to do it and Yeah. and I don't think anybody has more time in in four weeks time So if you say six weeks by then you Yeah yeah. It's too near. So the thirtieth of September we'll meet here again. meeting? Can, can we meet at house? Yes. It's more sensible for Meet where? What's your address? Forty two? Thirty two. . Is that alright? Or what? Mondays is actually not very good for me but hopefully by then I don't think I can make that either but er Val, can I have your phone number please? Right. erm what did you say? Thirtieth? Well that's . go through. So plastics erm ya I think that's re-using is better than recycling. And erm then mention the charity shops. I mean we don't need to imply anything there. There's no new recycling centre nearby for plastics is there? So who mentioned this The what? talk about recycling mention that. I just remember it from the . Now Bejam have become Iceland they haven't done the plastic bags collection have they like the, a lot of the . They haven't got a provision for plastic bags Is that worth checking out? I know a lot of the Iceland do have a recycling I I'll do that, if I'm doing plastic bags at charity shops I'll check plastic bag recycling What's happened to Sainsbury's one p back cos they don't actually Yes I was yes they don't actually give you one p any more. No! I think supposed to, they are supposed to. I I always make them give me three p This in the Friend of the Earth, Germany she stayed with us, I really would have liked you to meet her. She was fanatic! You have cat f food in tins! How dare you!you know . What do they from the butcher and Oh, really. Locally, no transport. Cut out transport. Only local foods and If it's available. Yes well mm. So who, who. Are you doing the bottle bank ? You doing the bottle banks? who's doing the bottle banks? Yeah. Thanks ever so much. Because er Caroline once wanted one in a school and we weren't allowed to have it. No I won't thank you. Well there's one at erm . The erm wine merchant. You know erm the one down the bottom of Thorley Hill. Well they were, they were sort of advertising er giving you money back. . I don't know if Down in the er Yeah. Can you find out more ? And also we do quite a few we can write at the bottom er for more inf if you have any more information or something in small print Mm. please contact and then we can do the next few hundred The thing is you can, you can change them very easily. Ya. That means you can er pay for it easier. I wouldn't print more than three hundred for a start. So if we get further information we can always if not we can just get printed. That's very impressive isn't it? That's that council of environment . No sorry. Council's environment advisory committee. Oh that must be that must be the one er Rob's on. Thought this was good about the, buying the R S P C A that boat oil spill. Doesn't look very steady though does it! Yeah they look like! It's ever so tiny isn't it! Yeah. coracle . Well they've got to keep their green image, green image going haven't they? So Kath while you were coffee making we decided on er three weeks for collecting information. Oh right. And another three weeks for production. Which will make the thirtieth of September a meeting at Portland Road. That's a Monday. Although for two of us Monday's aren't good. So I don't know whether I would prefer another day. Three. That makes three. Monday or Tuesday is no good. You can't do Tuesday? Wednesday? Wednesday now Wednesday would be the Second of October. Second of October. It's at your house? Is that all, that's changed then has it Wednesday the second of October? Have we decided on Wednesday? No I think we should thing is I don't think I can but er I mean I might be able to pop in for about half an hour. Because I mean I can find out what goes on Yeah and leave, leave the stuff Yeah beforehand. I'll probably phone it in actually. Yeah. If that's okay. Er second at what ti . Wednesday second of October. What time? Eight thirty. Eight thirty. And this is, this is about the leaflet is it? Yeah. Yes. Get all the information. Decide on how we do the thing. And erm do take it To go into details of that it's probably much more sensible to do it with just two or three people. But er at least if we can pull the information together that evening that'd be a start. Form a sub committee! Ooh! sub committee with everybody present! Well you can always divide up. Thanks ever so much folks and I'll see you Oh you've got to go. soon. See you. Bye Katherine. See you then. Thanks Katherine. Your welcome. I'll be in touch. Bye. So what's gonna be on this stall then? Apart from the new leaflets and a few Some re re-use labels. Yeah. You're gonna buy, you're gonna buy some? I'll send off for some stuff. I'll just do it. Okay. Those Traidcraft ones. We've got some money. Money sitting round accounts doing nothing. How much money have we got? Oh. Probably loads. Can't remember. I'd better let you know what we have got in stock just in case there's anything there that you're Yeah. You haven't have you? No. I I don't think so. Are you gonna get leaflets and you know Friends of the Earth leaflets? I've got l , well they've got loads, I've got a big wallet folder full of all the various leaflets. You have. Right. Erm Car stickers and cakes or anything like produce or I don't know. I mean it, it's up to you. I don't know if it's that sort of a do really. Mm. Hundred and sixty eight pounds thirty nine pence. Oh gosh! Is that their new catalogue or is that the one, the summer one? This is spring summer. It's it's the latest one isn't it? I haven't had another one . I mean they may be just just just about bringing one out so They're just about to bring one out aren't they? The Christmas lot will be out that one. Sorry? August that one. the R S P B Well I I've been sent a local Oh that was is that true? No I've got a No, it said it in there I've got a local group six pound order form autumn and winter ninety one. But I don't think they change that much. I think they just sort of it's the same thing in a different order. And it's it's got a lot of sort of stuff that's left over from Christmassy things That'll do. Yeah. Erm. But I mean do we want to have any produce or anything else? I'm just looking at this stall thinking there's gonna be next to nothing on it. Mm. Yeah. I think if some cakes we need definitely. Oh. So we have to do To make it look right so Good advertising! What is the, what is the concert in fact? Well I, I honestly don't know an awful lot about it. I don't think he knows that much It was low cost through the No cos it's concert. There's going Oh concert. to be a concert there. All Saints, they were going to have a concert weren't they. No. This is at the Rhodes Centre. The Rhodes Centre. The concert at which we've got this stall. Yeah. The Traidcraft's stall. . I mean he kept he didn't know. He said to me on the phone he didn't know a great deal cos he was just getting it all together. And he said, today he phoned me just as I was going out and I didn't really sort of stop and talk to him very long. He just asked me what we needed and I said well a table. We don't really need anything else do we? Like power supply or Oh no quite something with flashing lights on it! So what time of the day is that? It's evening. seven or eight o'clock. He told me. How long does it go on for? No idea. He said he'd phone me again you see. I think if there's a concert there'll be a rush at the beginning and there'll be a rush at the end. Possibly a rush at the, at an interval I suppose. What concert is it then? I mean Well I don't know! Sounds a funny, funny evening to me! bit of a mish-mash isn't it. I mean But he's he just The oth . The other thing we could do. Sorry. Liz. Is is to see whether green consumer Rob and Trish want to, to to have something. I guess that would be a . I mean I wonder who exactly you're attracting if you've got people coming to listen to music and then Well I think something to do with the church isn't it. I think he mentioned the church go through the church ? I don't know what the one,the the there's usually a theme for every one world week each year and I don't know what the theme is for this year. . Act together for tomorrow's world. Yeah! Fine! Well. Yeah. There you go! And he said we come under that heading so. Good. Right. But all he There's nothing else going on apart from this concert I don't know. I'll ask him. I'll ask him . Erm we'd better get on to a few other things. I've got erm Greenpeace written to me. They're having a family fun day on what day is it. Saturday the twenty eighth of September. That's at Much Hadham hall, village hall. Two o'clock to five o'clock. They want to know if we want to have a stall there? Family fun day Much Hadham village hall? Yeah. Do you know where that is in Much Hadham? Opposite the Bull pub isn't it? Right. Er he wants to know do we want to have a stall there and that's gonna cost us five pounds. If we have that. Erm Well you could get produce for that. And then if you ordered now. I bet they probably be really competing with them in a way won't we cos they've got all the same sort of stuff. Won't they? Yeah. Greenpeace sell them mugs and re-use labels and sort of things like that. I don't know what you think. Erm and there's er I would suggest If it's a fun day why don't we do a game or something. Why do, you know. Well it's. They're celebrating their twentieth birthday celebrations. Erm and then th in the evening there's an event. Which starts at eight o'clock with two live bands, cabaret, disco and bar. Tickets three pound fifty. Does anybody want to go? That's a good idea but it's offer to do a game. Well they've got what they've got on here is they've got whale watch talk and slides. . Punch and Judy show. Magic and juggling with ka plate spinning. Er Playbus painting competition. Raffle, refreshments, tombola and various merchandise stalls so I suppose that's us. Quite Mm. Do they do fire eating act or We can contortionism or my legs up behind my neck. An alternative might be to just to ask whether some of our membership forms could be put out so that Well I think they're more interested in the five pounds! Yeah alright well. Yeah. I mean to make a contribution. No to be honest because that that's what Greenpeace do isn't it? Don't you belong? Yeah start the Harlow one up Yeah. the whole of their effort really is devoted to Yeah they don't do it. They're actually, they just do fund raising to their local groups and everything else is obviously sort of controlled by central office or That's right everything is central. Ac action is central or something. Yeah but I mean So they're probably just gonna have their you know merchandise and a few people sort of It's difficult really because I mean we're sort of striving for the same sort of things I know. Yeah. aren't we. It's er you don't want to be seen to be erm Who's it actually run by? competing with each other in any way. Well. I think his name's actually written out. I'm not sure It's like trying to unite the churches. Yeah. It looks like somebody Plus Plusky Oh yeah. No. Oh well. It's signed by s . Oh no sorry.. That can't possibly say . Well it says Leslie at the top. But there's something else underneath. I mean is that but is that a Greenpeace central office thing or is it erm A local group. a local group? East Herts. But does it, Pat does it doesn't he? for Herts yeah. He still does it now. How do you know? that have got so involved in that. Yeah. And and Bob did it here in Bishop's Stortford but I don't know whether he's still I think he still does it because he was very committed. But I I just Pat was doing it for Bishop's Stortford on or thereabouts because he sent me all the details about the whale walk . Cos I I gave his name to this guy organizing the one world week. And he hadn't had any joy out of Greenpeace. Can I borrow that a minute? What this? Yeah The problem we've got with Greenpeace they might not have so much in the way of merchandise and they just have the stickers and There's the leaflets. things and leaflets. Yeah I think it just depends whether the local group want to take up the option or not. I don't think there's anything I've got to tell you. Er except there's a day of action but it's right that's right into November now so you can hear about that . So we this next meeting at Yeah. I I think we can sort out more about the st stall I mean if we can sell things Well this this this er Greenpeace letter predates the September. Oh that is a pity. I think that's actually a bit too soon to get ourselves organized Shall I shall I just write off and send them like pound or donation and a few leaflets could Yeah. Say we're quite prepared to make a contribution, mm. you put them out or circulate them. Yeah? Yeah I mean don't think Rob would be interested. Yeah. He he ought to know about it though I'll ask him about it. Cos he lives up the road from there doesn't he? Oh yeah. Erm And he could collect some money for the . Alright I'll tell Yeah. I expect he, you know they're fairly busy but you know they may well And I'll tell not want to go. Yeah. Anyway I'll see you all on Wednesday Thanks for coming. Erm Bye Liz. I'll going in the afternoon There's a few other things that I've got to get through here. I mean Erm I've got here. I've been sent some stuff by Chris who used to run Harlow group. Oh yeah. Chris who was that? ? . Not Christine! Yeah that's right they cos Erm so I've got a whole long list of all these people who used to belong to Harlow which is absolutely enormous. Is that Friends of the Earth? Yeah. Masses of names loads of money and Well no, I No they've folded now They have folded. Well I think that list is the list that what was his name, Chris? quite a few as well. But if you look properly it's a, that is not only Harlow. Remember he wanted to merge the groups? Don't you remember? Oh yeah. Oh yes. Of course. And he had all the numbers. Because he also works Yes. Some of ou . Yeah. in a erm London. Isn't it the national? No it's it's all the No. He wanted to call it Stort group or something. Oh yeah Stort Valley or something wasn't it? Stort Valley group . Well there's a lo quite a lot. It's mostly Harlow actually when you look through it. But there are Bishop's Stortford ones too. Yeah that's all the And the vast majority's Harlow. That was his plan of having What, what do they do they want. What do they want to do? Do they want join our group or Nothing. He said he he's apparently just moved and he's got involved with this other charity erm to do with the United Nations Friends of the Earth and just passed it on to me. Cos the there there must be useful contacts you see. People who sympathize. we've got the names. Mm. They were fairly enthusiastic when they started off. Mm. So I But I I mean we I don't know whether you think it's worth contacting or not. It might be. Yes. W either when we've got a reason to contact them Yeah. or with a specific letter for them saying you know welcome if you if you feel like it. Actually just just quickly er I just noticed on that list of your questionnaires that we got back a couple that they didn't actually know what was going on. And that you know perhaps this is er erm publicity wise I wonder whether we're falling a bit short on our publicity. Well. they didn't know I mean like first newsletter we've had in ages. And it's something else that we need to get we can't just sort of No exactly We've got to get, we should get more publicity. But it's ever so easy for somebody to sit at home and say well you should be doing this and you should be doing that Oh yeah yeah. and not doing No I'm I'm not sa , I'm not saying. I'm not saying you should be doing anything I'm just er No I didn't mean you, I meant them! No well . I well really I don't think you should say you're not doing enough! No I think last year more or less shows that we really have to concentrate on one thing. Do it and then plan Yeah. plan the next . Because otherwise we just And then write about it if we want to. Yeah. So what what we'll do quickly to write and inform them all that we're doing this stall and won't we? Yes. We could even send them a recycling sheet. Yeah. And the most recent newsletter. Yeah. Yeah. And a, and a short letter I do don't know whether you said that. Are you talking about this lot or Yeah. or that lot? Sorry? Yeah sorry I was also tal we were talking about our own membership talking about Stortford Oh right! and we passed on. No I think they I mean They complain they don't get any information. My first contacts with Friends of the Earth in this region sort of what six years ago was Harlow. Mm. And they were all enthusiastic and confident and Well what happened to them? And when there was another friend who was still over here at that time. And we went three times and they always planned and planned and planned and had ideas what they could do. And they never pulled round to actually doing it No. properly. Right. And I think the same happened as with us. They wrote letters and they did didn't have the energy Mm. to write again and again you know And you never get a positive answer, clear answer first, first time round do you? Mm. You have to write and and write more details or put more pressure on and have more people write. But if you just write a single letter Yeah but you should . I know you two have been Yeah. Mm. I'm used to it. I mean it evaporates. . Didn't we have er a membership thing which said about erm membership form which actually explained what what we did in if you want to join return this sort of thing. Yeah. I've got loads of those. Have you still got those? Yes. I've got all those. We've still got those somewhere then. Yeah. Well I've go have got the . I don't think I don't know if I've got a master. But I know I've got lots that could be copied so we could send them out. Well I've got the master still somewhere. Well anyway it's something to bear in mind the fact that we've got that list anyway. Erm Yeah how many. Sort of what's the approximate number of people on it? I don't know. I'm not very good at estimating numbers. One two three four Oh and then there was there's it's it's it's not all Harlow it's all just Yeah it's Stort Valley. Ya. This Chris what was his name? I don't remember. I don't, didn't even know his name was Chris. Don't you remember he he then suggested th that walk along the Stort? I do yeah. I mean I'd forgotten all about him but I can remember Do you remember that. That was a really silly thing wasn't it? Can I just have a look Kath? Yeah. He organized it all and then I think was it a week before he suddenly said well we can't possibly have two hundred people walking along a nature trail that we want to protect. And he was really of the illusion that there might be I think two hundred no six hundred people Two hundred people might turn up. turning up. In the end I think three people turned up. Oh. It was, it was no it was This looks really interesting. get it. I had to write off Yeah. Er it was a nice er display thing to show to show the kids when you do talks in schools. Yeah yeah. Well I mean I'd certainly use it. Is is that Greenpeace? Yeah that's what I think is it's no It's a resources pack Mm. It's his own is it? Well he's obvious they've obviously the group has bought it and he's got it and he's gonna say do you want to buy Oh yeah. Oh yeah. for ten instead of twenty. Originally cost twenty pounds and we could get it for ten it's er It's Chris it's erm living forests resources pack. Looks good doesn't it?that I thought. Erm with all sorts of po posters and teacher's notes and things. Well I firmly believe in building up a library . So do I. Good I'm glad I I mean there's you said that because I w I want to buy a book! no library because I think er if you are contacted for information and you are able to say okay we have a book or we have books. Yeah. That's that's one of the things I I I ke , I've kept all my New Scientists. I keep these. Yeah. I go through them gonna collate that cos there's loads of stuff in there good. Yeah. But I do get quite a few people phone me as you know asking for information. I just photocopy relevant bits None of none of them has got in contact with me. Really! No. Aren't they funny. I get the feeling Well I should give you er that they either phone in. Phone me and then get it all given to them just like that. That yeah. And no further effort involved cos Well I should, I could . No it isn't. This woman who, who keeps phoning me up about all this oil pollution on her land. She she. I sent, I wrote off to Friends of the Earth, I got a load of information all about the law and she still phones me up and say oh you know what the District Council's they won't do anything and the N R A wasn't doing anything. And I said well when did you last contact them? February! Apparently she's got a problem that the oil pollution is coming off this site where they're refurbishing the boilers. It's gotten on to her land and off her land and into the ditch, which is you know the N R A Where is that? Er Roydon some way? You know where all those nurseries are? And because the oil is coming to the ditch via her land they can't have a go at the primary source. This is what she said and I, to me it doesn't sound right. She said nobody'll Nob they all say they haven't got the power to prosecute and I said well the N R A has. They've got more clout than anybody else. Mm. More clout than the District Council. And then she keeps saying but you know what these councils are like. And I said I'm not talking about the council, I'm talking about the N R A! And now she wants me to find out how can er found out about a solicitor or somebody who specialises in this sort of thing. To take the District Council to court. So that she's more expensive to them than this other lot will be. Apparently they're causing quite te dreadful pollution. It's all this oil from the boilers leaking on to her into her soil and out into the ditch. Well Certainly is. But erm in the back of my mind there comes that she's saying to me don't get involved, don't get involved. You know who owns all that land, it's the mafia. And this could be why she's getting nowhere. You could give her er erm er wr , give her the address of Friends of the Earth, London. Oh she's already . That's how she got in contact with me! You see they refer everybody on and then I Well but they should give her a soli , the name of a solicitor. There must be green solicitors about. I have to write to them and ask them and about a month later they reply to me and I pass it on to her. Because I don't know off hand. I've asked Jeffrey to ask a friend about it who's a solicitor if he knows anybody but I c , I can't I haven't got the in information. I don't Does anybody of you remember where Friends of the Earth England erm analyze their expenditures. Their income and their finance for the last year? I I saw it somewhere and I got lost track of it. And I was appalled as to how much they spend on publicity. But I can't do anything with it because I lost the numbers. Mm. I don't know I'll have, have a look. I don't remember seeing The thing is this . Does anybody of you seen that or remember? No. No. No. So are we saying yes to that? Yeah. Yeah. Erm can I just ask you. Does anybody wanna go on the energy campaign weekend? No thank you. And there's this book. Which I think we might like to don't worry . Erm energy without aids. Which I think would be a good idea if we got it because I don't know about you but I'm always having arguments with people who say oh we can't have the whole country covered in windmills and Mm. things like that. They all think nuclear powers okay. So we really need to know our What's the energy thing weekend just out of curiosity? And Good. Right. Go on I don't. I don't know these things. No. Well you don't get them. I do and I feel obliged to pass it all on. I can't just sort of No. But it, I, it's only six ninety five and I thought if we had you know a few facts at our fingertips to say well that's all rubbish you know. So what is that? Is that er booklet or something? It's a book. Book. Just talking about al you know alternative On erm renewable yeah energy really I think. Yeah. Because they keep saying oh what's gonna happen when the whole population of China wants a fridge and Mm god! I haven't got an answer for things like that. Mm. There is no answer really. Because want to catch up with us and we're already using too much energy. change your lifestyle. I just thought the more facts you've got at your fingertips the more easy it is to persuade people. Yeah if we've got some money we might as well spend it. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Educate ourselves. An and the next day of action as I said before is on tropical rainforests erm . Connection with er tropical woods Oh we did actually do November the ninth. for the architects. Like Hertfordshire architects Yeah. for example. Do something basically have a Yes mailshot or ring them up or. They're a pretty depressed lot at the moment Yeah I bet they are. They have nothing to do Not much to look forward to so they'll probably like a bit of excitement. Nothing to do. No I I don't know what it's going to be about they haven't sent any information. It's just that er I've got the date. Right. When when they say. Is it an action day ? It's an action day. It's the next day of action and What date? That's a Saturday. What date? November the ninth. It's only just after the one world week thing. Well it's October. Well if I if I get Well it's only two week's after. Yeah. and I don't know what it's going to be You know know which would recommend Yeah. This. I mean I have been into this window frame business. Mm Because we have to have sash and sash soft wood. So anyway various companies wrote. Well they do use tropical rainforest wood but Yeah. it's government er schemes. Yeah it's like some sort of erm okay. Yeah. And I mean I have, I I remember that on some T V programmes they they said it's all bogus Mm. I mean that it is not really government run er . They reforest it but what they reforest is eucalyptus or Yeah palm erm they oil palm plantations Mm. Mm. They just er . Actually I've got a, I've got a brilliant picture that I took outside the train. Erm we were travelling through Malaysia and erm it's just one canopy tree standing on its own in the middle of nowhere. And there's all this sort of undergrowth. And it's obviously that one wasn't, just didn't want it or it was dead or something and they just left it. Mhm. And it's just the one. And then I've got all the pictures of all the logs on the train wagons and er that was really it was a, it was a good picture actually cos I thought oh look at that poor old tree there it's Yeah. all its friends and then it was just standing there on the ground. But really it's completely it's completely wiped out Malaysia the whole of central Malaysia is just just gone. And all the soil's eroding cos it's sort of sand and it's red. And it goes into dust. So it goes everywhere so I mean there's gonna be trouble with that in the future . It's where they get all the flooding isn't it? Oh yes. Right. Oh. okay. Thanks. Thank you very much. Right mom? Where's the food? I'm hungry mom. Oh would you? Just for me? Oh gratitude. Picker. Oh hey Clifton's coming round, gonna play football Clifton and we're gonna play football What's Clifton Clifton What's up Michael? Hello Where's the ball? Where's your ball? ball Where? ball Where's the ball? here Well give it here Where's the ball? there mhm, it's nice. Come on Michael eat your dinner Mom, you have to speak English. No, I told you yesterday I can't hear Well you have to speak English Why is that? Cos thing What thing? This Oh you mean you are taping me No, I have to leave it on all the time Are you taping me now? So everything I say is running Yeah Who is going to listen to it? Some people in Norway Norway? Oh my God Oh my God Oh God Shut up boy Oh God Yes I can. Hello? Yes Terry morning morning. What? What's that shit music in the background? What's that shit mus Come and finish your dinner Oi listen to this. You know that taping thing? you know the micro thing you know? Yeah I'm doing it now. Yes I am. It's picking up all that you say you know. It is . not for me man. Nick who? Nick who? Oh Duane told me something about Nick or Nicky. Was it? What's he say? Oh right. Oh. Didn't get what she said man. Colin, I don't know, he probably won't come. I asked him. Is it? I'll phone Nick and Colin right. Alright then laters. Dickhead, dickhead. Laters. he said some and get your and finish your dinner I have to phone Nick Forget about Nick Shit what's Nick's phone number? And stop swearing the tape You're allowed to swear. No. Fucking hell man. Oh no. I can swear it I like okay Hello Hi Nick Yes What're you doing man? Oi, I'm taping you you know I'm taping you Hello Say hello to microphone Hello mister Mike Yeah, pucker, hard core yeah, oi coming down park? I dunno Come on Yeah y he Are you coming? I dunno D'you wanna come? Not really Alright, don't bother coming, right? Alright then D'you wanna come? What? Yeah, it's bloody wicked. I'm I'm going down there at five o'clock yeah yeah Alright then, if you're not doing nothing right alright then laters, pucker. Who else can I ring? Mhm? I have to get a lot of people Don't use my telephone No seven five hey four four nine . Hello, Colin? Hold on Colin, yeah yeah, oi, d'you wanna come and play football then? Yeah, what time do you reckon you'll be there? Er says he's gonna knock for me about five yeah and we're gonna be there at five yeah. So what time d' you reckon you can get there by if you leave now? five past five What, if you leave now? well after I've had my dinner five past five Alright then, you know where we're gonna be? Yeah, it's either the fence yeah, you know that white fence, either there or on the other side where those gold things are you know, or if we're not there, go on the other side of the park where the other gold things are. Know what I mean? Just f yeah. Anyway, laters yeah, laters. Bye What you want? Claudette No Claudette, come here No finish your dinner Oh fucking hell Go away Go on, eat your dinner, there Hey, Marco Marco Yes? Shall I hit him? No, leave him No Mom . Oi, get out my seat. Oh shit. Sit down. No, more for me so different crunchy No, they're not Nick ? Yeah Is he coming? He might be yeah for sure Not for sure no No we're not coming here so shit yeah. No. Do you know when you take this to school your teacher will listen to it No they don't listen to it, they said you're allowed to swear as much as you like No They said you're allow . Mom. Y'know when they're gonna say God, what kind of a family are there? Yeah, just like any other normal family No shut up Listen, you know yeah he went and brought a Pot Noodle cos he didn't want you to cook for him cos your food's really shit. It's nice they brought him up No call it shit Mom I don't want no more chips Well don't have any I'm not Mom, right, listen yeah. I always looks after him Oh bloody hell mom take girls. They're gonna be there mom How many of you About eleven of us Yeah right Nick lives in Southgate right next to me,lives in, where's he live? He lives right you know and Yes Yeah, he lives there leave at half past ten We leave at eleven Alright, we'll leave at half past ten What? Who's got to take a bus? It's not far mom. I dunno. Mommy? you keep quiet you I think it's a party I think it's a party It's not a birthday party. Ac I do, actually I know it's a party actually No, us, well, right to get in it's two pound, two pound fifty. What're you doing? well wicked. love you too much to ever stop love, Rastafarian now Right. No go away, who's it for ? No it's for right in school Yeah? Yeah? Are you taping now? No. Okay . Right in school yeah, erm after they gave us these yeah and they like wanna see like how we talk and all that. You know Yeah. rastafarian style and all Who wants who wants to see how you talk? Er it's whatsit it's some some er Norwegian thing and Are you taping? No it's rewinding. Oh okay. Yeah and I say something What? Say homeboys. I don't want to say that, I don't s talk like that. Alright just say, just speak. Terry I want you to piss off because I have an exam tomorrow. But I don't care. She don't know what to say. .fuck off, you're allowed to swear as much as you like. Are you. Yeah. Fuck fuck fuck fuck I'm gonna fail You're gonna fail is it? What's that you're gonna fail and you're gonna cheat for your G C S Es ? said that how am I gonna how am I gonna cheat You're gonna cheat. You've got the answer sheet for the G C S Es exam Terry go away. Okay I'm going I'm going. That is my very ungrateful sister who's a fat tart. Mum, where's my tea? It's in here. Wicked. You know what I found, you know you walk all the way round with your friends down the village and you come home. Yeah? When you the other side telephone and I'll come and pick you up . What where the park is? Not where the park the village on the way down. Yeah but I'm gonna walk with Richie and Andrew up to bloody down there. with Richie and Andrew innit? Yeah and I give you a lift up to here . When you get the other side of the park Yeah. You know in the village there's a park where there's flowers. No. You know where Yeah but everyone's gonna be walking there you don't mum. Yeah but then you're gonna separate. No we don't we separate right at the bottom of this hill. All ten eleven of you, here?live round here. Most of them live in . . Yes they're gonna walk to . Do you want some tea? It's hot you know . Put a lot of milk in it. . Ah.. . Oi don't do that. Do you want some more tea? I'm full. Morning. It's on. Yeah. . Your the . Seeing that it's your brother's birthday. . God you take enough time. Mhm. Take so long. I know how it goes. No it's not. Nice walkman. Mm? Cornwall. innit? Huh? I put an ad for the Cafe on this. Shall I say shout. Here's a shout going out to College, the Boys. . Yes. Don't do that. I have to leave it on all the time though. Here's another shout going to in College, Boy. I hate Norwegian people. I hate Norwegian people. Oh I asked Steve he said he'll come. Steve said he'll come. Yeah. Luckily. Huh? Luckily. Luckily. Who told your brother to have a birthday on bloody Saturday? Couldn't he have it something like next month or something. I bought some tapes to listen to. I got Megahits Thirteen, and oh yeah C D. Cos I'm gonna tape it again cos my thing's clapped up and all.. What? The tape like I keep on doing it wrong. Cos I done it with my old hi-fi yeah And it conked out. It well it does tapes yeah but it's like the bass keeps on going down then it goes high then the main bit's like You know what I mean it all gets crapped up so i'll tape it again. do you like it? What? That C D. I love that C D. My rastafarian . So do you like Norwegians? Norwegians. No like I hate them. They're cunts. Cunts . My sister goes That's right? I goes yeah. She goes, Fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck really loud yeah she goes fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck. Who's that? My sister. She's got a bloody erm French G C S E today. The main G S G C S E yeah for French, a whole big thing big . She's leaving in a couple of weeks. She's going College. How long's your brother going going there? My sister's gonna go to College. Maybe she might be. It's either , or sixth form. Going to the sixth form? Maybe. What is? Is it? You p you should have played football yesterday you know. I saw Mustapha down there, he played went with his erm father. Played football. Huh? Who came. Some boys. No one like everyone from our school you know what I mean, no one that you don't know. I mean you know everyone. What all the people from our school. Everyone not a just people in our class you know what I mean. James , Micky , Clifton, me, Colin I don't know why Colin came. He's got holes in his jeans. What a fashion statement man. bloody things innit? Whatsit? . I knew what it was. I knew what it was. It was nothing . On the other page yeah it had a picture of like this chart yeah and it had the picture of a grapefruit in all this sharing, you had to just draw that. My drawing's enough crap cos I I was buzzed when I was doing that. . Transformers, robots in disguise. listen to this now? Who? Yeah. Yeah and teachers from our school are gonna listen to it. Mr is a wanker. It don't matter. They can't give me detention for this. Yeah man. Huh? Yeah man.. Morning. on the tape. . Say something say something. Yeah just say something. Give out a shout to someone. Go on. Why are you taping. Yeah. Who don't you like? You. Besides me. Nick. Besides Nick. Everyone. Everyone oh. Oi Nick,Nick I done this bad burp And I put it on my ghetto blaster yeah, me and Nicky listened to it yeah, and it comes out wicked . put that on. No it's not on this tape, it's on the other tape. Mm. Cos I I've done one tape. I sleep. . That gave me a good idea actually. . Yeah, I done a burp. Had a haircut? No. It looks different, you had it round the shi sides. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. Guess who asked out Nick. Mm. Guess who asked out, Who? Derek. Mhm he's a dickhead isn't he. Innit? . yoghurt. Hiya Terry. Morning. Morning Nick. Morning. Morning.. didn't I? Did you? Yeah, last Easter. It had a big egg in it. Don't you remember? You gave me a kit-kat one. Yeah. I got two kit-kat things. where you going. car? Yeah yeah . .. Nick, you're a bad boy? Or are you a bad girl? You're a poofter. Is it still taping? Yeah, leave it on. Get one big gruesome Just do a real one mate. Oi . execution thing. Yeah. It's gonna be bad. you motherfucker. Oh wicked, I can pick up the revs. Innit, pick up the revs. those fingerprints? Me. You? No. It wasn't What time is it Tel? It's erm five to. Yeah. Yeah. Me? . You've put new alloys on? Going to the park today. Okay? Are you taking the baby? No. Take all that hassle. Oh Carolina is a girl she buck up in the and rock your body just like you move, some come girlie, girlie, da da, da da da da . Go away Michael! Go, go to mummy. Go to mum. Go away! Piss off! Go away!! Faggot! Hello. Yeah. Er erm possibly, yeah. You coming then? Ah meet you up the park then? You got a , yeah, yeah! Yeah, yeah! Mm mm! My dada! Why don't you go if I'm not going? You're horrible! Boo ooh! Yeah. If I go, yeah? I'll be down the park. I mean alright. Is it th , everybody's gonna be down the park, yeah? I dunno. What down the park now? No. What? Oh Micky Mars Bars been knocking for me, Clinton's supposed to be knocking for me, Jay don't know what the fuck's he's, he's supposed to be doing! Oh. Colin dunno know what he's gonna do. Colin. Well come down here then. Yeah cos then,th they're not gonna be down the park are they? Come down here yeah? Alright, latest. I was taping this by the way. I don't mind! I dunno, it's up to you, you know. I'm not going to control your whole your life. Look, if you wanna ride up, ride up, if you don't, don't. Alright, give me a call. Don't tal , I don't wanna talk to you Nick. No I don't want to talk to Nick. Nick I don't wanna talk to you. Look I don't wanna talk, I wanna talk to Paul. Paul. Word up. Give me Nick. Hello. You coming then? Right. Latest. Bye . I need a Coke. No, eh eh,, eh ! Then you'll have to buy some more. No! But I, I think that What d'ya think I'm gonna drink down the park? I'm gonna be bloody thirsty aren't I? You're not gonna learn anything down there. No. Have you got a small bo , have you got an empty one of these? I just put in the dustbin, it just gone. Well done! It's, you wanna get it out? It's I don't want it! What? It's a bottle. It's all gone. Yeah mate! But the Lucozade . A bottle! Me. It was me. A bottle. Mate. A bottle! No! Here are. I don't think we should have one. Hey! Oi! Oi! Oi you fool! You're a fool! I'm a fool ! You're a fool! Now piss off ! Yes we are. Where's er, where's the er, what do I want? I want you're so clever going and throwing the bottle away, you're so daft! Never mind that. You want me to go and get it for ya? The bottle. Yeah, but you have to clean it? It's already clean. Well then go and get it now. Have you got any ice? What did you phone him for just now? Nick phoned me. What for? He wanted to know if I was going park. And I'll rinse it. It's clean . Yeah you got . But I can only do few animals, but that's all. Oh keys. I can't find the keys. Right. Michael ! Don't wanna hear us. Well anyway, if you were to give well I'd give anything Would you give me two hundred pound? If I was rich enough I'd give you. Yeah but you ain't got it have you? No. Well you're dumb! What a sob story! I wanna to take you to outer space outer space . Reggae Hits, thirteen. How long will it be mum? What? How lo , how long are you gonna be? Up the park, er for dinner? Yeah. I don't know. Ha? Not till we go out. Where are you going? I might go alright? Come on Michael, my sweetheart. Fo fo fool! Come on fool! Yeah? Fool and a ball. Come on. There. It's there. Yeah. Thinking of you . Can you keep an eye on him while I'm doing this dinner please? No. Please? Mum. No ! Well I don't want to look a he's a pain in the arse! Jus , just take him down . What if I go? Ha? You going to go? I might. Oh oh. Is it so urgent? Ee ee, ee ee, ee ee. What Why if I go? why don't you like him? He's a pain in the a , he's a pain the arse? No Michael! You fish! Is real Oh Michael!kiss a , long, long . God man! I can't even wait until I'm older so I can go to the discos like Georgina. And how much is it to Do some dancing. go to disco. You can go to and go to disco? Is it? How much are they? Maybe five pounds, eight pounds to get in and then you have To get in? buy, a drink of water you have to pay eight pound. Eight pounds? Four pounds just for the Coke. Yeah, right. Sure right. Great one mum. Word up. Alright. Oh. What? What? Forget it! Oi, nice t-shirt man! It's nice. Yeah. Wicked! Oi! Nick has to come first. Come with us. So I have to wait for him, come on. Er a, er bring it round. Yeah. Bring it round. Yeah. You know what, that thing I got Yeah. Yeah. Kiss around . please? No, wait up. Where's the ? Dunno. Morning. Phone Nicky Ha ah? he's, Nicky is coming. Jay is coming. , I've already asked if he's coming Just shout, what's coming for? He don't like football does he? It's just that he wanted to see Jenny in front of everyone else. Oh right. Anyway, eh Shaun. What? Shaun, shall I put it on in the garage. It's like, cos if people look through the door, yeah they'll see it Oh yeah. and they will, cor! What a nice bike. My bike's narf shitted up! I'm going, I'm going, oi, you should down your bike down thingy yeah? They erm, service your bike, twenty pounds for just a service. Well, where? Down, I dunno. My friend told me, yeah? He says it's twenty pounds for a service, yeah? on a machine man. No, no I'm gonna give to thingie to service it. I don't have, you know, waste my time. But, I mean like it's twenty pound, yeah? Service, yeah? And they like buy stuff as well, yeah? If you need it, yeah? But that's like little stuff that costs about a quid or something like that, yeah? Like it's thi , they buy all that stuff, yeah, but if they're stuff like, it costs about ten pounds or more Yeah. erm, you have to pay. But that's still good cos they know what's good for your bike. Know what I mean? Shut the door? Ha? Yeah, shut the door. Whoops! Remind me when we go yeah Yeah. I got er water in the fridge. Suppose I better pu , put it in the freezer. Are you only good enough . Freezer. I don't think so. You can put it in that one. It will though. Eh? Mum! It will though. Yes! I'm only gonna put it there for a couple of minutes. Mum ! Yeah. Come on then. Fire. . Is this is then? Yeah. This it? That looks decent as it goes. It's sma , it's small innit? Mm. It's dec , I like that there. Yeah . Do you like this song? coming up? I dunno when she's coming up? Ye Wicked! It's working. I use these three then I'll put my thingies in cos I can't be bothered to erm change. Word. Word up. You not coming. No, I'm not well. I'm not well. Ah? I'm not well. Mystery disease, yeah? Right, right, right. Lee said he's coming now, yeah? He's fucking . Well perhaps he's I like this. Ah, ah ah, ah, ah ah. You fixed it yet? Ah this is . Erm Mr . Why? It's when you never fully expect it. Oh. So you're not taking no one to school? No. So you don't mind giving me a lift to, up to Nick's house? Er, yes now, I'll, I can't be bothered to put clothes o. It's good now cos Nick's brother takes us to school. What by car? Yeah. Oh you mean you don't walk? Nah. So you're all agreed that I want you to pack up at half past ten? Yep. And you all agree half past ten when I be there er from where you gonna walk? Ha? Well where is this place? Yes, it isn't Saracens. Well then, where where? It's not Saracens, it's another one in the village cos Saracen's i in the village,i , right? So this is where Yeah, you'll and then cos you tell you otherwise . Yeah, really. Right. Alright. If you , it's alright, I'll tell you where Saracens is, yeah? You go up Nick's hill you ke Nicky's? Yeah, this is where Saracens is, er it ain't at Saracens, yeah? You go up Nick's hill You under that and then you go up and go up Oh. You know there's that right, say you go up, yeah? Yeah. Right? That side's Southgate, yeah? Mhm. Yeah? This side is Saracen, you go all the way up that side And that isn't . to Saracen. Yeah. Because where like it's down the village? I'll go home. I bet you he's at home. Yeah. No, he told us it's the rugby club. Ah! It's a rugby club? It's a rugby club. I dunno. It is too far. Oh. It's a rugby club. I've, I've only met one bus driver which is nice. Right, and that's it. Jus , just the one. That's Paul's dad. No, two bus drivers which are nice then. Paul's dad, but I've never been in a bus with Paul's dad. And, but he's nice anyway. And er this geezer yeah? Which I held my hand out, yeah? No bus stop or nothing cos I just missed a bus, and he stopped for me. I goes thirty P, thirty please? And he gave me thirty gave me a ticket right? And that's it, and like, he was really nice. Not like, oh what do you blurgh urgh urgh! Like that. They just Le , I mean do they ever stop? D'ya know what they do usually? You're running up to the thing, yeah? As soon as you get there, yeah? They just close the doors and go. Just like when Mike and Steve were here and er they were going fucking wanker! Fucking wanker! You cunt! You cunt! I just don't, I was mu da na da . bloody fucking bus! You wanker! The best one was Andy. Da da, da da da da . Richard hit the ball on the car. What car? The car that was going past. What ball? James 's football. You know my road? Yeah. Some car's going past, yeah, and I'm going Nicky chip it up, yeah? And it hi hit the car. Damn fool can't chip the ball. Well he chips it properly up in the air, but it's like no power there so it just hit the roof and like Nicky just put it forward. And you're sad Nick, yeah? What? You're bad, yeah? I know four people who are going to the party and that's it. And they're not gonna stay with me, yeah? Just gonna go off. Yeah? With the girls, yeah? And I'll be all alone. Well don't go then! Fuck you! Yeah but I wanna go. Well go! Stop moaning! Yeah but, you're bad. You're a cunt! Tt. Why's your brother's birthday have to be today? Today. Ha? Tomorrow. It's your granddad? Mm? It's your granddad? Where? Over there. Then it's your Mum. Ha ha! It's tomorrow. Oh it's tomorrow. Well what's your brother's birthday have to be tomorrow for? Fish. There's your Mum. There's your granddad. There's your girl. Oh it's your family. Ooh you cunt! It's your There's Desmond. that's your indicator. There's Desmond. Desmond Tutu! Desmond. I see him on the bus one day round here. Da, da da da, da, da da da da da, da da da, da, da da da da, da da da da, da da da da da da I've had enough of that at the moment. da da da, da na na na After yesterday. na na . What d'ya do yesterday? Oh yeah, you were playing football. My legs are killing me. From now to yesterday, they're still killing you? Aching. Oh. I play you as well. What's happened to the fucking bus man! Innit taking a time? Good tonight, you shut your door . Yeah cos, good taste of music. It's nine o'clock. And it's raining? Ha? Raining, I think. We'll just take a short cut. Ah ah! My legs! Cos I'm an, what d'ya call it? Fuck off! A dead Ho ho ho! gandy giant. Gandy fat giant. Mabalub Ha? Mabalub. Popalub. Popalub. Lub, lub lub Lub, lub. lub lub la. That's the thing. Ah! That red no go, that red nose goes with the car. I'm . Ha? I'm busting at the legs man. Come on then. Shit! Did you do your test ? Yep. Well my Mum done it for me. I got much more homework than you Nick, because like, I have to do the tape thing as well. Well that's Wicked! I'm taping. It's working, I dunno why. Hey! Weren't it working before? No. Well, you could do something now. Cheek! Say, fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck. Is it? Yeah, it's working. Yeah! It's working! Hooray! Just wait until it stops. Hello, my name's Nick . You should do a bit of practise. What? All go go . Yeah le , It works don't it? Right look. again? Try the Yeah. Batteries. Are the batteries low? No I just put ne That's not to say that I'll come back. No. Is it coming out? No. Ah ah! Ooh ooh! I'm not saying anything. Well I don't listen when I go stop! Stop! What's that mummy, mummy? Is that right? It's Brian's, it's not ours. Come on then. Pooh! And bring it home so I can ask your daddy what he thinks. Game. Oh it's working now. Brilliant! Alright Mum ! Go and play football. I'll ring Ooshi. Oh yeah. Ooh! Hi Ooshi? Yeah. Do you wanna play football? When? Now. No give me, about twenty minutes . Alright then. I'll knock for you, yeah? Alright then? Can I come? Alright. How's it going? Er er nothing much. Alright? Yeah. Okay. Alright then. Come here. What now? Yeah, I'll pick you up. Oi! What now? Yeah. Richie left with a bird yesterday. And just came up to chat you up. Yeah. Yeah. What's her name? Dunno. Where did you, where d'ya see him? Where did I see who? So you went to the party as well? Yeah. Richie's a cunt, yeah! Yeah. Innit? I, I reckon I should, I should kick, I'm gonna kick Richie's arse when I see him. Aha. Yeah. Do you remember that ain't she ugly? Yeah. What's her name? Dunno . We you okay mate? I don't think I was . You must have been drunk. I know, I was . Alright . Yeah. Did you get off with her? No. Why? Are you going next Friday? No, I'm not . Why not? Sure. Sure. Sure. Right. Right. Oi! Getting ready now. Half an hour right? Right. Half an hour. Right. Latest . Oh oh she comes. Da na na na na na. Doo da da, oh oh here she comes, da da da, da da, oh yeah. Oh oh here she comes. Ha ha . Mum ! Wind it up . What did you want? Alright? Yes. This is a, that's our ball. You get the Watch. ball. What? No. ! . . Ooh! Come on kick one. always. I don't think he's back yet. Why d'ya leave your music on? Is it? Turn it off then. Press the No! I don't know how. There's a big No, I don't know. It says power. It's a, the power. Come on Michael, inside. Hey! Come on Michael. Here. Choo, pa cha cha. Oh Michael, come here! No! Come in. Mum, go outside and play with the baby. I am not going outside. Play with him. Play with him mum. Why? Choo, doo, da doo doo doo doo, da da da da da da . Who is it? Go away Terry. Who is it? Go away Terry! Who is it? Effy. Hello. Ah ah! Do you know how angry, I wish you didn't know it yet. Okay, my mum You did not know it yet? was supposed to pick me up from work, okay? She didn't have her car so she goes,to Bunnie, you can take her home, yeah ? It's all . Big earthquake! Ah! It wasn't me. So I was I was on my knees ! Ah! . Ah ah! God Jo, you're such a fool! . This'll crack my knees. Innit? Anyway, yeah, and so , right I go to Bunnie and I, can you take me home yes, cos I'm supposed to be going to a pizza to have pizza round my friend's house, he goes, mm, they're going, oh we're starving, you have to go round to somebody's house, I said he goes well I'll take you stra , I'll take you as soon as we've had something to eat. I goes, what's the point of me eating twice, you know? I won't be able to have my pizza. He goes, oh don't be so silly, yeah? And took me over there and my, I had to have argument with my mum. Can you get a bus home? Oh yeah! From my house. They were talking, and talking, and they decided to watch T V, I'm sitting there like, like, and I'm showing that I'm bored, you know, I'm falling asleep and then everything, and, there's like smoke coming out of my nose! I'm like really vexed out! It's so unfair! I was there till ten o'clock! Ten o'clock! Ten? Ten? Yeah, when I got back. And what about the thingie? Shut. When I got back, erm my dad was with some Greek guy from Cyprus like bloody hell! Yeah, but I wanted to go, you know. I know it sounds stupid,but I wanted to go. It's not fair ! Yeah. So how you getting to thingybob? Yeah, my, mum taking me, Chris, and Vicky, they're going from round here, yeah? Well why don't you co ,as if , put us in the car, but we'll take you. Yeah okay. Shit! I dunno, cos my dad's gonna dro , I told her my dad's gonna be dropping us off. Probably outside to a park. What time are you going? Well I'm waiting for ti , Chris to come home. I haven't, er well she said she's leaving her house now. Er, er, I haven't done my hair. Gotta wash it. Erm I went to ca , you know I went to the Levi to get my jacket, really horrible quality. Really thin. Really rubbish! So, I'm just gonna go tomorrow to Camden town. Did you go today? Yeah. I me Who with? I mean I got a sh , and we just go got the bus me and my brother. Oh. There's no market tomorrow Jo. There's no market . It's not a market dad? I might just go to Camden town tomorrow and get it, cos, I mean, it's seventy, yeah? But it's really good qua , it's really thick. Isn't it? Oh I'll go and choose it after school or something. Mm. Come here. It's really Terry, what are you doing? Putting the mic , microphone to the thing. Just go away! Why are sitting right beside me on the phone? Cos I have to do Dad tell him. a tape. No he wants to tape us on some sort of tape . Are you taping now Terry? Yes! Oh brilliant! He's taping our conversations. So erm what time does it finish ? Say Are you coming on, er next Friday? Where? The party. No? No. I tell you She won't come. she won't talk about you or anything. She won't come if you don't come. Alright then. So how's the Right. it's kind of a disco man. Ah? Disco. I asked her right and she said er What did you ask her? No I, I asked the one, that other there Yeah. and she said That's her friend innit? Yeah. And she goes, oh I might come, I don't know where it is. So I told her where it was and she goes, erm, are you going? And I go, yeah. And she said I'll probably come. And she goes is Terry going? And I go, yeah. And she goes, does erm your friend, does Terry really like my friend? I goes, I dunno, but he was by himself so I set him up. And she goes erm if he doesn't like her then I'll tell my friend not to come. Alright? And I'll pass subtle hints about it and I go I'm just passing a subtle hint right. She won't want You anything. No, she's just gonna say and blare it out, yeah. He hates you! Cow! Oi! What? Come out here. Watch. Relaxed. Those your new ones or your old ones? My old ones. Are they dry? You know I was taking my jeans back? What jeans? You know those ones I bought on Saturday? Why d'ya take them back? Cos all the letters have come off man.! What d'ya mean letters? You know the letters I mean on the back of the pocket. No, the letters on the back of po pocket is plastic. Yeah, they've come off. How can they come off, it's a Stuck on. Is it? Yeah. Ah. Do you think I should wear them tonight? Yeah, wear them. Da da da da da da da . I've ironed them. You go , is she going to get the same pair? Yeah. If it's open man. Cos I rang up there Yeah. this morning, no one picking the fucking phone up! I hope they're open. Oi what day is it today? What day is it? Well , it's a bank holiday It's a bank ho yeah, but some might open. Yeah but they might , yeah, they might be open. Yeah. Like and see, but er I was gonna say Ta I dunno, but what Yeah but I'm going on a trip tomorrow and I need them back? Oh yeah, you got Will you wait for me while I iron my clothes? Alright then. There's loads of videos there. I'll put it on. There's er, there's uncle . I'm getting that single today. What single? Ah la la la lo . I got that. What? I've got it. On a single? No, I've got the I've got it on C D. You haven't? Yeah! I have . I bought the Sonic System C D. No, I don't mind. It's . It's just in in the chart, number six. Is it? That's well hard! Straight in. Jesus! That's enough old man. I haven't heard it before. The first night I heard was the party. Di , I'll lend it to you. Nah. ! Ah God! Well that's well hard! It is a wicked song you know. Did you find out what school she went to? No. Don't wanna know what school she went to. I don't wanna know what school she went to. You ain't got it? I don't want to know what school she went to. And I don't know. Did you find out anything about her? No. nothing at at all. That's worth it. What about her? Why d'ya ask whether I know anything about her ? I know she has trouble with her getting . Who? Her. Innit? If you wanna say no, fuck off! You were turning your head away weren't you? Yeah. But I couldn't, like I was pissed anyway, know what I mean? No you weren't. Bollocks! It's not important This one to what they're . Yeah I but think he gave me all his drink. Who? Sam. He gave it to you? No, no, I was drinking all his drinks . Which Sam? Sam, Sam, the one The one who was totally pissed. Oh or the other one? No have you got, don't you know the other one? No there's two we know. Yeah. The one with Kevin The one with the longish or the other one. it's the other one. Oh right. The one with the long,he was funny man ! He's a, he was And he going was totally out of it weren't he? Yeah. And we were at MacDonalds and I was talking to her, anyway, he even got really jealous cos I was talking to her. He started beating me up. It was really funny. How old is he? Dunno is he nineteen? Nineteen I think. Is he? Yeah. He's a good bloke. He is alright he is. Yeah I know. Everyone's alright. He sort of like everyone, as soon as I got there you know like that, that school or whatever Oh yeah. Right. You know this weekend like, everyone'll know you'll come. Yeah. Anyway, I, we should have a party, you know down er Get some more beer. down what's it called? Down Southgate thing. No. Southgate hall's alright. It's like . Ah. For my school and for Yeah, but er if we do have a party, yeah? It's up me, you, you and Andrew, yeah? I'm gonna go and get from my school . Yeah and my school, and my school are best mates. Yeah. Some of my friends right, as soon as they come started bundling right? Right. Fuck off! And just run away. Really. It's alright for me cos like I know everyone. Andrew's school and my school. Right? Yeah. But like Andrew when he gets real pissed I know some people now. I know. Right, I know the one's in this year. Erm ah fuck! You know Matt ? Who's that? The one in the grey t-shirt. Oh yeah, him, yeah. Yeah. And he's really funny. And Him and Andy got pissed right, and he could say oh there's a fire Andy! There's a fire Andy! And got blown away right. Andy'll say oh oh oh oh! No, I know this other geezer, yeah? Right. I was dancing with Kate, yeah? And, you know, in the thing, yeah? And er, he can't, he can't take it, and he, sort of her took off me, yeah? And I was dancing round with her, yeah? And like and like afterward he goes oh I'll . Erm like tal , talking and everything, yeah? You know Lee, I can't remember his name, but I know him, yeah? Like, cos I was talking to him in the party, yeah? I know what's his, that other Sam, and both Sams. I know Nick. That Chris. I know , who's Chris? The one in the green, er hacker's jacket. No. Tall, massive . Er er got the . Oh oh! Yeah him. The one who said th , that he liked that party? Yeah. Him, that's Chris? Let's do it to him! What? Let's do it to him! He's a fucking ! He'll absolutely Who is he? You'll see him as we he's so funny! Just ghastly man! Fucking hell! Stay away from him man! Ah but you know in Finchley, yeah? Yeah. Didn't he come with erm, Nick? Nah. He wasn't there. It's like, that's where I fucking met him! Did I tell you Yeah. when we were in MacDonalds, I go it may No. be your fucking 's fault! And it was Yeah. cos he fucking didn't turn up on time! Yeah, what did he, what did he do? Ah? What did he do? He didn't turn up. They was waiting for him. Mm. Ah. There they are. Oh who was the He was that one with short black, yeah? Cur curly? ? No, nah. Her friend? I er, I think it was Claire. Not sure. How short was she? She weren't short. I mean short black hair, yeah? Curly, yeah? Curly I couldn't , I couldn't see anything anyway. It's a mile away somewhere. You were fucking going ,you were going Hmm! You laugh. you were, you go, ah you cut me, you cut me, you cut, you cut up. You did cut me look! I didn't cut you! You went fucking mad! It was fucking Andrew, you got them? Fuck off! It was Andrew who cut you you know. You sort out a ticket? Yeah. Give me it. Why? I want you to show it someone. Who? A girl in my form. Who? Why? I'll give it to you later. Why does he want it? I dunno, he needs it for something. You got it on you? Yeah, in my wallet. I got, a got, I go, you know when they er thingy you, ee, you know when the put the thing on, yeah? And go to the black one, yeah? And th , I ain't got one but I got a ticket, yeah? Do you wanna see it? He goes no I don't like, just go in, yeah? And Daniel wouldn't go in cos he didn't Well Daniel's a poof though isn't he? Alright Jess. Because I had to pay a then he paid off. Oh fuck off! Innit? This is better in I fucking wore my jeans today. D'ya remember in the first when we had curly going everywhere. I was gonna sell my jeans to Andy. Shit! I ain't got no money. Gimme it. Is that Da it? Yeah. da da , da . Why do you wanna show him it? I dunno. It's not bad in there. Oh! Kieran was narf quiet, quiet after. Who? Kieran. Kieran? Yeah. That's cos I was annoyed. He weren't pissed. Did you see his love bite? Yeah. Oh well. Did Nick go? No. Fucking chicken! He could have wo , gone if he wanted to? Well why didn't he? But he don't mind you Cos he was scared , he's scared. he don't like meeting new people does he? Ha? He don't like meeting new people. Exactly. Don't say nuffing to him though. I won't. Oh he wouldn't even go out with Sherry yet, and like he wouldn't even talk to her yet and like she's in the fucking same school er er I think she . Nope. Cos I was sick the next morning actually. Were you? I didn't. I thought I'd have a hangover, I didn't have a hangover. Well I felt sick. I suppose I had a mixture really. I got up feel rough, er, did you mix it? I mixed I had some Malibu. Oh right yeah, yeah. I had Patrick , have that, have this, right? That Malibu man, that's narf nice. Malibu. I shouldn't mix drinks and I can't fucking What's that one you had? That was well nice! Taboo. Is it? That is fucking beautiful! Elevenses, yeah? Yeah, I'm not gonna mix it again. I was bloody sick last time! Elevenses. Elevenses? Oh ya! Elevenses,. I'm going home. Have you got a phone card? Where you going James? I'm gonna home first. Alright then. I've snapped my phone card in half. First to the ball. Yeah, why d'ya snap it in half? Cos I didn't know I was doing it? Yeah, cos you're a Elevenses. Come on, let's go. No, sixty seconds. Do you want her phone number? No I don't. I'll get it for ya? I don't want her pho , if I, right it's really stupid, yeah? If you go to a party, yeah? And you got a girl, yeah? Cos you can't get off with all, all the, the people you want to. Know what I mean? What? It's really stupid if you go to a party, yeah? With a girl, right? Right? Cos then you can't get off with the people you want to. Know what I mean? Someone'd get off with you? What? Are you coming to ? Nah! Elevenses. I can count any people got off with. Actually I don't wanna to get erm, hitting his head on a with a hammer, I'll say that turns him on. Well James , what can I do for you tonight? It's my knee again. Your knee? Still giving you trouble Jim? Aye. That's a boy, let's have a wee look at it. See how we're doing. Did you get X-rays, Jim? Aye, for and I still didn't, they didn't show anything. There's no arthritis or anything? Good. That's good. No there's no that other thing the inhaler thing. Mm. No sign of any damage with that. Now then, where, where are you feeling it catching just now? Here and Still round there. this up here, and, and there's kind of er shooting pains and Still a bit puffy down here, isn't it, eh? That bit doesn't feel so bad. Mm. Remember there was we though we thought there Aye, a s was a wee scar. scar across there. You can still feel a slight have you been doing your exercises? No? Right. Well, I think you're at the stage now where we could get you doing your exercises, Jim. It's at, you can feel the slight in there Ah. Just there , you can feel that, feel that, feel it catching. But that's softer than it was before. So that's good. Now, what we'll need to get you doing, is some exercise to strengthen up the muscle across there. And pull that scar tight together Jim. What, what I want you to do is, just with you sitting just now, just lift your leg up like that, just hold it with your two hands. And just do that. About twenty times a day. Now your knee'll be sore, when you start doing it, because you, this muscle has to get strengthened up again. And let that scar get joined up. But as you keep doing that, every day, it'll get less and less and less painful. And after about a week, there'll be no pain in it, and you'll be doing it no bother at all. And that muscle'll grow over the top of that scar, and it'll get rid of all that for you Jim. Okay. Well that's so as you're, you're going to win after all. You're going to win. Er, what about the inhalers now, are you still? Er could I erm have a prescription for ? Aye, sure. I'm still on the forty. The be you still on that? Do you need them? No, that's just No, you're all it's just I don't have any Ventolin. Right. Now then, if you do these wee exercises Jim and then come back up and see me in about f say four weeks. Let's say four weeks. Okay. And we'll just check that out again, and make sure that that's all got healed over. You're at number two? Yes number two You haven't gone and left home since I saw you last, no? No. You're still at ? But that's good, I'm pleased. That's Well, that's since January. Aye. It's been really slow. Cos yeah, er, it er it does worry you. And er if we can get it to just, well a wee bit of rest, we get to the stage where it er starts to get soft again. It means we can get the muscle to grow over the top and bury that underneath and let the whole thing get back to normal. Okay. But just nice gentle exercises. No leaping up and down . Eh? Okay? Yeah. just do it nice and gently and that'll come back to normal. Right thanks Doctor. Okay. Thanks. Right. Bye. Okay John Cheerio now. British commercial law is amongst the most expensive in the world. With new firms in the North of England under cutting their city rivals, is the writing on the wall for one of London's most traditional professions. Behind the city calm a battle is raging. A business worth three billion pounds a year is at stake. The attack is being spear headed from his new London offices by lawyer Paul . There will be firms who are practising today who will probably figure in the er top one hundred in the city who in my opinion will not be practising in that shape or form three years from now. I think they've got their cost structures er a a little bit out of line and I have to be honest that I think that some of them have thought that er all you have to do is, you know, keep a brass plate outside your door for fifty years and the work would roll in. Paul is a managing partner of a controversial firm of Yorkshire lawyers,. Champagne has long been used by the city institutions to woo clients. It's now become the weapon of the invaders from the North to sell law. Since moving in to the heart of the city last year,has become the talk of the legal world. Paul is a lawyer other lawyers love to hate, but his is only one of a number of Yorkshire law firms that are sending a chill down the back of the London legal establishment. They may scoff and call them Yob and co, but the revolution that these firms have brought to the legal market is probably here to stay. The city law firms all clustered within the boundaries of the square mile have dominated the market in legal services. Like other city institutions they grew fat on the back of the eighties boom. Even when the recession hit there was money to be made from liquidations and restructurings. is Britain's largest law firm and occupies a plush new building in the city. We have er one thousand two hundred lawyers in our firm round the world er continuing to develop their skills, continuing to deal with clients on a daily basis to make sure they're able to service those those demands. , with two hundred and thirty partners, turned over two hundred million pounds last year. The profits averaged out at a quarter of a million pounds per partner. A recent survey showed the big London firms to be the most expensive in the world. They can charge over three hundred pounds an hour for a partner's services, but that's increasingly subject to negotiation. Clients are not naive, they understand the job that needs to be done. They understand the price that is the market price to be paid for that. It's at the end of the day what you do for them. How you do it and whether you provide real value for money that is the important thing. This week's London motor show. General motors is promoting it's latest models in face of falling demand in European markets. The recession has made it take a hard look at the cost of law and at the attitude of big London firms that it's used for more than fifty years. Keith heads its U K legal department. They maybe haven't listened to their clients enough, particularly their industrial and commercial clients over the years. I think there was a there tended to be a feeling that value for money was not a a a requirement along with quality. Why? I think it relates perhaps to the fact that er the city institutions and the city law firms er concentrated on quality and competitiveness, value for money, cost saving wasn't necessary a part of the issue. And for many of Britain's best known companies the cost of law has become an issue in a way it never was before. Many years ago you didn't query the fees erm and er that's no longer the case. Why don't you query the fees? Well in in th the year that I was brought up in there was a a much more er er traditional fee structure which simply wasn't negotiated in the same way as it is today. Until recently there wasn't anywhere else increasingly cost- conscious industrial firms could go. That was before the rise of the Yorkshire lawyer. Costs in the north are much lower and local lawyers have bred a hard nosed approach to business. One of the country's fastest growing law firms is . Leeds has has grown as a financial centre over the last four or five years, probably more than any other city outside London. The law firms within it have been competing very strongly with each other, there are six extremely good law firms in Leeds and their I think that that experience in competition over the last few years will stand them in very good stead. Yeah it wasn't bad at all. You came came up by train? Yeah Today the firm's rehearsing a presentation to a major public company which is conducting a beauty parade. It's becoming the fashion among big clients to make lawyers pitch for their custom. We've er handled nearly ten percent of all U K floats in nineteen ninety three. Some of those have been very substantial, companies coming to the market with er market capitalizations in excess of a hundred million pounds. It's the beauty parade that's allowed regional firms access to what had been exclusively London business. Certainly if we're beauty parading against er maybe London firms where perhaps the attitude might be a little bit more than it is from the provincial firms that perhaps are used to having closer relationships with their clients. And before beauty parades, presumably a lot of these clients you wouldn't even get to meet would you? Erm no it'd be very difficult to get an opportunity to do so. It was through holding a beauty parade that I C I discovered the benefits of using a regional firm. The company decided to put all it's litigation work, worth over a million pounds a year, out to tender. It started with a list of city firms, but it soon realized there were other options. There were only three er criteria when we set out to choose a firm. Er expertise was the first and foremost requirement. Cost effectiveness was the second, and willingness to take some of our staff was the third. er met all those criteria and they had one additional benefit, their Leeds' base er means that er their centre er their own centre of gravity is very near where I C I's centre of gravity is, up in the north of England. The northern lawyers haven't been slow to see the marketing potential of providing legal services close to home. This year has done six major floatations of northern companies. The biggest was valued at over one hundred and fifty million pounds. If you go back seven or eight years ago er the city institutions would be saying to the companies, you know this is a er a major matter in the in the growth of the company and you need you need city representation, you need a firm of city lawyers to deal with it. Erm nowadays that's not the case and erm all the institutions know that there are some damn good firms out in the provinces who can who can provide the service. But here in London's legal citadel, until recently, has been played down. The strength of the largest city firms stems from the international business that flows through the capital. is Britain's fifth largest legal business. It's certainly true that er the big regional firms now do a lot of corporate work. But we don't find, if you like at the top end of the corporate finance market, that they are yet as significant a competitor as are er rivals among the leading firms. But do do the city firms think that they will become tough competitors in that market? It depends really what happens to them I think. I think they've built They've opened London offices, many of them, if those offices grow so they acquire the sort of breadth and depth of experience in the relevant areas that the big firms have got and at the moment er they may not have, then of course they'll be more and more competitive. Because so much of the commercial law trade go through London,have opened up a second front in the capital. Determined to break up what it sees as a cosy cartel, it has already spent over a million pounds on marketing and corporate entertainment. Today's party is to celebrate the floatation of a Mercedes dealership, the client is more than happy with his choice of lawyer. I know that it was erm very much more cost effective er than we would have got er for similar services from a traditional firm in the city of London. What sort of saving do you think you've made? probably about a third overall, with all the various aspects of the transaction in terms of all the legal costs. And has another trick up it's sleeve. It's been actively recruiting partners out of London law firms, along with their clients. One firm to experience poaching is a second tier London firm,. It's lost two senior partners to Yorkshire firms in little over a year. They I think are strengthening or er strengthening their position in the market in London by erm er a very sensible strategy of looking for er able people with client following. No doubt its an attack but other firms are doing the same. They want to take your clients and see you off the map? Well I don't think its quite er the level of aggression is quite up to that, I'm sure that the market for legal services is now very much more competitive which is a healthy thing, and er if er if we were simply sitting on our hands from the nineteen eighties and not bothering to respond to that kind of challenge then I would be worried about it, but we're not. For all that there's no denying the distaste felt by many London lawyers for tactics. They've been seen as too aggressive and too greedy. Aggressive? In what sense? Aggressive in terms that we fight in the market place for for clients and that we er then if that's what aggressive means the answer to that is yes. Er in terms of greedy, greedy in what? In that we manage to take good lawyers from other people? That's not greedy, that's just sound business sense. The city revolution is far from over. This week hopes to emerge with a large Birmingham law firm to strengthen its hand further. The game plan is to grow big enough to threaten even the city giants. With other regional firms joining in the battle for city work, even the biggest London firms have had to cut their fees and shake up their ideas. That in itself could be a lasting monument to the Yorkshire Terrier. I hope you realised they said a few a words on there that's just been picked up like while I was Yeah I know. on the phone. I hope you're aware that . They said record everything. Otherwise we will come and see how bad it is. I shall be . Is forty three okay?. Well what's Mark doing? That's that's fine. Mark had . Mark will he be first to finish? He can go and he'll be third . You're telling me you have that round the house playing, on record all the time? So you can't That's right. Ah? You can't . Well you wouldn't . Will it be so unusual,? be good. These are corpus records. For the er . Stick it in your bedroom. What, does it pick up the farting? What? Stick it in your bedroom. Won't get nothing there. Yeah. You'd have laughed . Catherine's house the bed shop. There was a man in the window and he jumped on the bed! And he laid there! And he must have been nearly ten minutes! So we sat and watched him. And he got up and he got on another bed! And he laid there! And he went round all the beds! And then he bought head board! Ah? Unless he'd just bought a bed. Our dad's been away. She won't go out! Why? She doesn't . From the dinner time to tea time. No. What's the matter with her? Well at least she's , he hadn't been doing enough work somehow! Cos he come I have. back home ! I've been I've been to the Saturdays and Wednesdays Saturdays and Wednesdays, Saturday and Wednesday. No exception Keep it up! Yeah, but whe , on the Tuesday and the Friday. But not on No? I do sometimes have a lay down but in my school she says right, can you go and , I go like that. Must have . Oh shit! Mm? Supposed to be up Sally's for tea! Shit! That's what I said! It's Thursday! Oh Shit! That's a new word for the dictionary, that! Paid up the insurance for the car, yeah? No. That'll cost you a fiver! . It said nothing of the ! We'd asked you . It was definitely he was getting the parts. Alright. Yeah but that was Didn't he say? two months ago! Six months. That was too bad cos I said to this bloke . Then you can pay my car can't you? Yeah I can. It'll be two years. I said, well . Well Buddy, got the assessor back down there, as you know.. Did they charge you for the ? So he's at least we'll go round all the the . It's only a small piece of carpet. Does , does the manufacturer , does the production and they can't make the part and we need part B for it. Cos the stock . Dad?, see that over there? That right? In between the . And don't let guff right! Don't ! So it should been in it! They wouldn't have guessed, they could say we'll be out Friday night! I don't need it Friday night and leave it in the that . Stop it! it'll be Don't ! Cos it'll be If they open that new garage then we will . Are they gonna ? Won't be open . Dad? This, is costing me ! Pat's not with them. Perhaps they'll be writing if off? in again Well no, he's gonna give us your car back. As soon as the bloke Do the same thing. agrees . So. So. Ha ! What's to be done? At where? Well, I'm afraid it could be there for six months! Because the manufacturer the part Ford. Are not making at the moment the part , the problem with the manufacturer . The manufacturer said she was having the problem there. It's only a small body kind of thing. what're they gonna have to order? Behind . She said, the part they were gonna have to put on it To fix it! was about a hundred and eighty quid! And then they were gonna have cut most of that off to replace to cut a piece off. Well where do you think it comes from? Dunno,. Do you know the woman at the end of our road, right? Takes me to school everyday. She's got a D reg Sierra with a, a locking petrol cap something went wrong with this other one. They couldn't get her a new one! Ford. They could not get her a new one! She had to have it modified! I know, they've got to get it made! Repaired. clutch That's a D reg, nineteen eighty seven car! But Ford could not get one in the new cap!! Incredible! there's a problem on construction line, to have it made and it won't done , cos there's a problem with it! So that the . You could send out to Japan quicker, for that part ! Been waiting for this , this is supposed to be in the U K and you just can't get the part! Right, I'm going to the work, I'll see you later! Bye! Bye! He couldn't have the part! Are you coming off or what? He says one thing not only do we Well I wonder where he gets that from? So there's me Can't . No. Plus we got the trouble with the ! You can't blame . I think it's gotta be through there. You see, it's the same with , he didn't want the car to go into Green's . And then they They say you've gotta put the car into Greens and that's ! They recommend it anyway Now that I've never ever come across that before! They've, they've never in fact that means they normally or something like this on a car. They just . Perhaps they'll I'll go down and show them tomorrow. Had the car sometime , if I'm not there,. They'll take it. you would! a time. on the bus fifteen pound eight plus vat when they say five pound eight plus vat, plus insurance that's cheaper. well you don't qualify for it . So she goes I'll found out but I'm sure you don't qualify it. And even if you did you couldn't get . Yes, you qualify for it!, you do qualify for it. Under the . and . Oh. And I said to . Yeah. it happened to us after forty eight hours! But we got it. We'd have had a car . Got this got this quote, right, from the other garage what just , how much did you say? Seven seven figure! Cheap right! They were gonna spray the whole car, which Green's won't do! Green's would wanna charge another six hundred pound to spray half a car Six fifty seven quid. Right? Green's is a right rip off! Now we, we've said that. This other garage can throw in a courtesy car as well! And they've it's gotta go into Green's because we've we've paid our policy! Paid our insurance! Speedy and efficient. Yeah. I said, well I have seen speed at the moment, but I haven't seen any efficiency! Yeah, they've got to contact us now. And I'd like to see quality! Well I wouldn't buy a wheelbarrow at Green's No! he's going to catch a cold! But the attitude . I rang up Monday and I said to her You know, what's happening about What's happening about the car? When could the car be done? No, when when No , I rang up to say the car should be out on Monday should I like to say Wednesday , no problem. No. I said problem? No problem! No, he told you that he definitely get it, eleven o'clock! He said , he said at I says Is he ? Why? He's taught me . all mine I suppose. She and erm the children. And he dreams about a . Won't have the .. You'll be coming round nan's then will you? She'll have to go to town near Dudley. That's . He's supposed to go to er . Gotta go to what's it called again? Oh look! They've run over to the sheep! Didn't know pretending. He's supposed to be or something. Supposed to have let me know last night again. I don't know what's up. You'll have to ring him up! You did go in di , didn't you? Go in. From work I'll have to ring here and we'll have to go and get him. to er just gotta go. He doesn't know what day. Well the forecast says it's gonna be rough! In the north of Wales that's in snow and blizzards all day! They said that or two. And what about Tuesday? Then we got you know,next Tuesday. Stroll on! How's your fingers? Sore, better, but a bit sore. It will be for a bit love. How do you cut your fingers in your cupboard? Dunno. Cos they weren't near the glasses. They were in the . . Mm. Always does Yeah I will. Yeah. See see that. Not the finger. Give me the . It, it, they're always . Ooh dear! . But when we got married but when we started to we went to we did our shopping in there. There was a a nice furniture shop in and there was a nice hardware stores. Didn't belong to the same people But they did an awful lot of trade. You know, market days and . And we got our furniture furniture in this place and there's a story in this one. So we to the hardware shop and we bought some mats and dishes and God knows what! And we bought a Then a , don't seem to have heard of in a kitchen. Mm. And we bought this extra and then went better side of the bed. Mm. And as time went on course I'd got no experience of house cleaning boots and managing, or anything like that! Cos we had this mat there a long time and I think we picked . But it was a beauty! Pretty one, you know, a nice one. And I didn't know what to do with the thing! .I didn't know what to do with it dad! No experience of ever anybody doing it. Can't think to ask. Mm. So it's up in my bedroom during the summer scrubbing . That's right, and windy! So I put it up and I gave to like that, I went put them in the water! Like this! Oh! But the , it was hot! And to dry that one and, and that came up like pretty. And that one . I'm sure, you know, I was thinking there now, I think there's a lot of wool in tha , in them. Mm. It's half wool, half nylon. And I think that's why you cannot clean them, cos . And if I had my way, they would have And there was no nylon around in those days. If I used this with my way. Mm? If I had my way, I'd have Axminster straight through the house . Or else Yeah. your way. Well Violet is wasting her time isn't she? She could have nice now, all ready. She could. there'll be never be any other too young for her now. No, kids there. That's why I couldn't keep my eyes ! Mm yes, but even her spare bedroom needs , she could be doing it up and renting that one. Couldn't Mm. she? But she won't be able to afford to now! Not right now! Mm, she could it rent While they've got the chance to go. Oh God, it's her bloody Honda ! Nice sound. ! These are the new disabled stickers. Oh. They used to be like that. They I i , is it for ? No, you go in the box . Yes. Yeah. Passport holders. Ah? Passport holders. Mm. There's one in the G P O. So where are you gonna put this now? There's room in the front of the car . So, if you'd like to come down and have conversation? Sue's gone to er Llangywneth Nathan,by his brain scan. I don't know, they think that he's got er dead brain cell or something, yeah? Why? Then here, going she's now going to . It's the back, the connection, from here to the brain. Oh . No, there's just something that not him here isn't connected to the brain properly. Is it from here? That's there's something wrong. Why doesn't try out here.? They've done it! .There's some connection. And they're going to find out what it is that the doctor said. Do you think they will? . Er How will I get one next ? To, get it then! But I can't afford to get it at the same time anyway cos he he won't be down to Go get it. But when I was . But er How much did you pay for that black one? My black waistcoat? Mm. How do you learn to make a waistcoat out of it?. . Like heavy black . I like that coat,. Cos I'm fed up of stuff going all bubbly! The stuff that the wai , keep a waistcoat for work. If anything, it's . Good God his trousers! Mm? He does know. I put I know! put him there! He told me to put him there. Mm? He signed the papers and all Have you done the painting you done? He relies on . They can pay redundancy in the end, couldn't do that? Pay redundancy. . I'll try. Right. So when'll she be down now? Ha? I don't know, cos she's going to a friend's for . Mm. doing tomorrow. She wants a day in bed,she , breakfast in bed today. Why? What? Why does she want a day in bed? She just wants to be in bed for a day. Lazy little bugger! Put that in jar! I will put it out of God! sight! And then you can go to er your ! Right. Right. I think that's horrible! Right. Tara! Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha . Right, she's took the trousers. Has she? So shall we go round shopping? Yes we'll go round to the to get Don't know what's the matter . Oh, it's two more grains in it more than the other I expect! Right? No. Colder. . Do you think that it's going to snow? Mm? Do you think that it's No! going to snow? Not dow , not down here anyway. Oh. Says on the picture it will come to North Wales, but I doubt it. We shall be a bit cold for that reason no doubt. Mm. Clematis are going up the sticks now! Are they? Mhm. Except this. it's going up I see them seven pound! ? No. They were four, five pound there and they were only three pound and Wickland And they're beauties! Th , that's the big one there! These lovely . You get for them. . That's Oh, she's gone! One Oh. there two there and a little bit there. Bit better. Perhaps it'll dry out. Mm mm . Right, are you gonna get ready and go? And they're all tearing round, look at this! I know! Dustbin lorry had it! They'll be all these visitors campaigning for the election now! Oh God yes! Chap your door every five minutes! Be telling them then to grow up in er Westminster. Not act like a bunch of kids! They'll soon be potato picking. Yep. I see where those sheep have been and grazed those Cabbages nearly gone. cabbages all on. The grass is growing up through it! Yeah. And all. Starting to be the growing. The grass is green isn't it? It's a wet month. Mm. That that causes everything to grow! You know, the growing season. Mm. I wonder why Cockney won't let you pick Ooh because the their own fruit? because people pinch you see. Pinch the pinch yes. Yes, but it's against the law isn't it? Well I don't know much And you can report him for that! apparently he charges you see. I don't know, is there a controlled price on stuff like that? But it's er a London ca er is that an old boy's principle? No. The way he was brought up I suppose, but it's a wonder it it's a wonder he's got any business at all! Mm! Cos everybody's fruit must be in the same way. Yeah. Those daffs have gone pale, haven't they? And I, I, They're always dark brown! If I was you now I'd go to him and give it to him, I tell you! You want your money back! But he won't be there, quite likely! No. And the girls won't give it back. But if he's there give it to him an ,an an ,an , tell him, you don't want that sort of thing! You've had too many of these sort of things and you don't want any more! And if he says no say thank you we'll see about it! Was it always a man? Who you go to? Weights and Measures is it? Well, stand in a Fair Trading Officer! That's right Fair Trading Officer. You haven't had a fair deal so that's the man to go to! Well,the Town Hall! Same place. No. Is it? Different place altogether! For fair trading? He's in Pembroke Well that's the Town Hall. Not Millford not . There's one for the area. No, well it's er the County Town Hall. And the next time you go in he'll have bloody rubbish! Not . I'll bet you! Oh. He don't care! Cos it's a market! I know but you but you see if it came to be something big and serious and it went into the newspaper he would. It's bad for business! That's down there innit? I don't know. The yellow thing, that's Steve's! I'm sure it was them. Ploughing up the road again! Well I don't know what they're doing! It could be outside somebody's house. Oh God market day today. It's open. I aren't going to get down there! I don't think! About the nearest. Yep. . I'm sick of seeing them all! They're all dressed in the same. Right, I shan't be long! Into battle! I wouldn't give a damn! I already have . There's that Oh my God , wait a minute! Looks as though he's . She got her silk coat done! No, you're not going anyway! I shall let you know. Can I bring these back? I bought them yesterday! All three of them! They're all,urgh! Please. Alright love? . Okay? Yeah, thanks! Ta! Do you sell ham? Linda! Sorry! Sorry! Yeah! Okay! Mm mm mm mm . Sorry about that love! I didn't give you one on the end but I bought I said the thing is that I pay sixty pence for five well I said it costs me another sixty pence to come and change them! And er he said well they are going off he said, but then No, they've gone off! the girls haven't the time to go through them! Oh, indeed! They'll blame somebody but, it weren't his problem! Did you tell we wouldn't want any more? Well these are certainly grapes!of course it's a it's it's a but the orange season is getting over. Yeah. Anywhere else down here you'd like to go? No. I went and fetched them off the sheet counter. I've come to change them! There was three girls with the sheets! I said I'd like to change these please. I said I bought them yesterday and Ooh they've gone off! Well Why was this all so tightly packed? Cos that's the bag o , that's rotting isn't it? They don't open them ! Oh it's alright, yeah. Doesn't look the same breed as these though. Anything down here? No. And call in anywhere? Nope. Have a mooch? No. Got no money for mooching, no! Good God! Looking for a silk Ooh I say, there's a nice lot of flowers in that shop! sa , silk. Ooh! I don't know what they were. Mm. Nothing down here? Books. No. Go home. I don't know where else you can go and look for nice fresh fruit. Er well I There is no fresh fruit about! The er the only place here in Millford that I would suggest is er Fine Fare! No, well people go and do their shopping in Yeah, but a lot of that's packed! Oh I don't know! Mm. Cor little-un sitting up, sleeping like that! Ha ha ha mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm . Oh, got a ! Mm. Woogh Everybody looks cold don't they? Yeah, they do, yes. Makes you shiver to think of them! You remember that man that used to keep that furniture shop by Cockney ? Yeah. Where does he live now? By the Post Office. Oh! Well he still lives in Eaking but it he's got a shop up by the Post Office. Oh yes. Yes, now I remember. Got a lot of stuff in there! When I want a new chair I'll go and have a look at what he's got. Nothing! Hasn't he? I don't think he does too much in the furniture! Unless she's got an upstairs. Maybe I haven't noticed the stairs there. Well when when we were there before he'd got a lot there! There are two little rooms with things in, you know? We never went upstairs. No, I'm sure that they'd got two little rooms on the ground floor and they were choc-a-block you could hardly get in! One room. Well, it seemed two two to me! You know, one opening into the other like a you couldn't er you couldn't move! No, because that was by the Electric Board! Oh! I see the Gas Board no. Which is the one nearest Cockney's? Electric. Electric. Well the people going in and out there as well. They're paying their bills, they're but there's nothing in there! It's one Oh! great big room empty! What is that, somebody ? I don't know! Didn't look! Jehovah's! Ha, ha, ha, now look at this woman! Never looked my way! And if you run her down, it's your bloody fault! Here's another one look! Look! Never looks your way! No place to park! Here. My my . He's in there! Oh, Christ!! But I don't think he's got an upstairs! Oh. I dunno. And that's all. Dental surgeon there now! It used to be a bloody do-it-yourself shop! Mm. Oh ! That's it, by the . All sorts of many stuff in there! Lovely shop in there! Oh oh! This is one. He's in that car too! They're a bloody pest these kids! Bikes are dangerous things aren't they? Mm. But no, nothing wrong with a bike. It's the one that is riding it's a the danger is! Yeah, well that's it! They whip Mm. in and out and in and out, till Mm. you don't know where they are! In, In Holland when we were there motor cars were not allowed on the roads! It was all push bikes! Mm. The main street, you know? Course, there was a at the far end of the street, a a red long, long street it was! Very long! There was factories on it and of course the workers keep coming in and out. Look at the potatoes over there! Mm. Under plastic. Look at these! Countryside what? Cheatering putting a new label up! Mm. Ahh Oh God, there's scaffolding all around here now! Mm. They've put the glass in that. I wonder, perhaps it will be a little glass house? I'd say the band , but there isn't room in it! For the band to sit is there? Not really. Hello David! Hello! No, it's just somewhere to sit in and look out at the en , er the ships and boats going by. It's like a shelter. Unless they mean to have a marina here are they? There's a marina down in the docks! Oh, I see. Well perhaps they're going to have races or something if the Mm. the Couldn't be wider . The Mm. water wouldn't be wide enough. Mm. Very strange! What shops are they? Aha. Well this blue van is Parry and Blockwell the garage! This digging was here. Mm. Weren't it? Well I'd have thought I dunno! By the church. Yeah. Mm. Yes it was, wasn't it? Go down the bottom of the street. Yeah. Hoh ell! Let's go home! Is there Internationals on today? No idea! Football? No idea! It's Friday today. I know. It's football, as a rule, on a Friday innit? Oh it's Friday! I keep thinking it's Saturday! No, there's is there? She's umbrella ! Trying to hold it together ! Oh ! A lot of houses for sale!isn't there? Yes I've er that's what makes me wonder and they're they talk about building more! The chances are we won't be going! They're building more for council houses. Council tenants. Homeless families. Well they could buy some of these and turn these into council houses or flats or something like that. Well they could, but they won't! Cos the people want too much for them! Anything going on up here? No, I don't think Yep all looks quiet. Bet that's getting damp! And it seems to be in a hole don't it? It's down it's below the road as Yes. well! Yeah. I bet he's sorry he . I bet he's sorry he started them! then he got his money in the bank, he was getting interest on it! Yeah. And now deteriorating! That's right. Be nice when you'll be able to go and pick your own strawberries again! Ah? Be nice when you can go and pick your own strawberries again! These daffs ave come out. Yeah. Mm ahhh I think it's going to be a wet afternoon. It's sleety ooking on the window look! So I You watch the rain hitting the windows, it's like sleet! Yeah , I think they said that er you know be today. Yeah! Is that snow on the mountains? Didn't see it. Looked a bit white, it might be polythene. No. Can't see a mountain from here, we're on the top! Oh ! Oh I see! We ought to have bought some knitting wool. Ay We ought to have bought some knitting wool. And done something. Well never mind, you got trousers to shorten. And that . Well you might as well do it and press the two together. Two together. Ey ou got two to shorten now! Oh God! Sally says that cardigan that I knit , that black one, she said tha i , it's lovely to wear she said! It's heavy! And it doesn't stretch and it er er er it looks, it feels good she says! Aha! What's that one? You know that black one? She wore it Oh yes. with those black trousers? Oh that cottony thing? The cotton. Mm. It's lovely stuff to wear! I said how much is it? One eighty a ball she said! Oh! I said I was thinking of making a waistcoat or something out of one. And she said it doesn't go bubbly. The only, if anything it might shrink a little. Oh! Not much. But you'd have to hand wash it? Yeah. Does she ? She boils hers and all! All the white one. Oh! Yeah but er Bleaches them and all! Does she hand wash her woollies? Yeah. So I might make a waistcoat. A white one. Mm. For the summer. Does it go very far? No, it doesn't. Not too far, but it's not bad! Mm. Look at him strutting along! Is the wind blowing in do you think? Blowing him along maybe! Look at these houses! Oh! They've let that . That's nice that one. Yeah. Nice and plain. They're nice lit , little plain one like that gives you plenty of scope for a creeper up the wall don't they? I can't stand creepers on the walls! I'm afraid it brings the caterpillars in! Oh no they don't! I dunno. That's why I can't do it. But some do. It all depends on the variety and the There's house, we've just passed it now on the and it's er a Montana Clematis. Oh ey Well it's at , it's all in the bloody attic! It's everywhere! Oh God, I couldn't have it! Gives me the creeps! That's what I'd be scared of otherwise I'd put one. That's it! Do you want it or not? Mhm. Mm mm mm mm . Mm mm mm mm mm mm mm . Ooh! Now it's starting. Come in the afternoon. Oh oh! And they'll be looking for not for me I don't expect! Ooh that's better! Get in the corner ! Watch your wires! Go on! Come on! Right. That's it! The er here. Do you think we're gonna have snow? I hope not! I'll tell you. Not, then yeah.. I told you . Oh I don't know! I don't know! How much? Twenty. You've had the two. I think, yep. Lovely! Ta So what they gonna build behind you, another garage? Is it? Mhm. Be alright won't it? Oh yeah, it's a big . Could be you extending?other shop do you think? It's all we know. What shop's down there? It's all the same one at the back. Yeah but how many, how many times has it been a shop? You don't seem to ge , er often does it? No . Yeah. Tell you what'll end up there So you wanna extend this back, this is in the right place this! Yeah. Cos it people come off the sites or go to the corner shop, don't cross the road. Yeah, if that was where that garage is and all of this was clear it'd be great wouldn't it! Yeah, you'd have your pull in as well! . Go on think about it! Ooh, you never give up ! Well this is it? of the Oh the the car people, it used to be! We've already got Oh! a garage down the end there. If it was you see, they'd be quick enough coming to tell you! Ey Right tara Thanks! Snotty, drizzly, runny noses! the parents' fault! everything he asked me to. He'll always, always, always do that! Where does he get it from? You! No ! Always! It's because you said to me! Well I'll . Cos I says, when they do, you better have all the bloody jokes about that! No! There's big guys in rugby. It's there when I put Put some and some fingers Mm? I just wish you hadn't got the glasses . It's for people Is it to eat as well. Yeah, I'm gonna, I'm gonna be Well you won't have bloody ! No! But I don't go round do I? Running round, bumming round . Ah?.. Who me? Mm. I can't really sit them together, they're not relations! I've got fishing tomorrow. I reckon it's not worth worrying about! Let's just leave that for now! You're right! I know. Change it round then she won't come next time! That's right. gonna like it! You look more natural. , cos we thought about getting a . .We'll just be , be about open. Well, didn't you tell them we're going out tonight separately and then there's the well the thing is whatever they do to it now it's going to last for Two years. two years innit? I dunno cos it's had a new exhaust on it. And a new battery! God bless. Who has? I think New brakes! she's tired! Two, three new tyres on. Two new cy , cylinder! You can look after it now! I wa , I'm gonna pick him up! And not, come here! If I get it through the M O T next February . Here! Take that . So that's just something . You've had your money's worth out of the new stuff Well that's right! then! Yeah. Grandfather clock. More colder is it? That one. That one? Ding That'd get on my nerves every day! How many is it? Knives and forks. It's not long enough! Out here, in a minute. Give them to me! Yeah well only talk about fishing, you see? I'm gonna be fishing all around the boat! No, not for long. But I got a good one! I've been getting getting out fish. Don't you can catch fish Well I'm gonna wait for while! I'm afraid I'm gonna wait until it , cos you gotta wait for all of the salmon to come up river. Rubbish! Rubbish! Because If you catch a trout you should catch it before Not with flies! He's catching trout and he's No, I'm fly fishing! catching salmon now! No way ! No! There's a there's all that fish So you like fishing? Especially fresh water. Yeah! Gotta go up the river as well! Well where did he caught the fish? Down the bottom by Liam's, that's where he caught them! Down river, or was it up the river? It's a river! You can't fly fish here! Yes I you can! There's the bridges! I said, well he said, it's two bridges. Two bridges. There's a road, you can't cross them! The bridge here with another on? How long is it ? Where he goes fishing, it's, the bridge is up Not me! No She was that ! I only do fly fishing! As a rule. Ah Jack does! You ought to see it! See the fish that we catch! Carp for cooking. Aspic's . I don't . going down the right?, five years old down the river was the first time ever but just have to wait for him! Oh! Two two traps . Get your hands off it! No! Ricky! Come on! Granddad's , are you gonna eat it? Yeah. Yeah. Yes indeed! Do you want me to fetch those ? I go fly fishing. You'll love fly fishing! You wanna see it! When you gonna take me then? You cast out you see them you see that fish! And your lines and then you tease it!. teasing it? I'll do it twice, and then tease it! Same to you! I was talking about the club and and that she was there! Then fishing you know,.. ? I don't know what it was? This is Bermondsey No. just take the cover. One of the lads had nicked it started cooking it! So Scott ! . Dad! Scott and end up with bait! bloody eating it! Scott and , they caught a squid in Scotland for bait now! That's Yeah. And then his mum goes, what's that in the fridge? I said squid. Get it out of here! Oh is it? I've tried brains. Oh,my dad Yeah we heard that other . I got more chance of catching a fish now cos we're going Saturday and Sunday! That's good and it's a what was this name? She were you know, shaped in rings! And she eat she eat it! That's ! ! Well it is only I've eat it! Oh! No! They weren't big enough. dad, did you get that T V from Comet? The town Comet? Shall we You want all yo , all your stuff from Ben in the Bag. I put all . . Oh! Excuse me, don't say no! It's like being in Switzerland, you pay your brother's ! You've had warm weather out here. It needs to come down here. I'll drop it down a peg. On one television so they're forty eight years old and they've never been . I would want to save one now. I like it. It's definitely don't Did Ricky do this? it's just that er she's been in . Special offer on Sunday. Is a three or four each Yeah. Yeah. And a hundred and fifty to cost . Even after he comes in. Come in! Fourteen forty No! No! Fourteen inch television, one in each room! Excuse me! They won't ! That's slightly . One hundred and eighty five? Yeah one eighty five I paid seven hundred and twenty five pound! Is that ? Seven hundred and twenty five It was my plan to get one though. But, it's er it's It's a marvellous thing! They are ! Yeah, but that's , mine had some And now they're telling you, you got the video aren't they? And they'll give you a one year warrantee . And then granddad's got any videos,. . it's to buy that picture a thou a thousand pounds! That's what Rude, innit? . If you got . And ! What? Erm, Derek said , and Derek said that erm that he now hoping you'd go down and stay when they get naughty pictures! Yeah,! ! But the thing is, if you fall out of bed you ain't gonna sleep! Cos they their trouble that I I and away! They says, well I here we go, on the chair count to ten! Divide by the number of that's not . That could be . It's very full now!. You count that. It's still going. Just don't change it ! don't say nothing about it! Yes. All your deck chairs.. . For running people's ? Yeah. Yeah! Oh yeah! Well but I don't see why! Just cos Well Hayden says to me, if you go either give me a ring, he said, and I . Yeah, we'll have to do some work out . Which is the or the fourteen inch television colour telly I know because, the blokes let us down! No, Hayden says if we go to Comet cos he said, cos I said I bought my video at Comet and they were offering twenty five per cent off , twenty five per cent off off the at Comet so that's about the third of the place . Oh! So he didn't , You get twenty five percent off. We had fifty percent off the price you see!total. Yeah. What about after sales service? Who Comet? Well I asked Comet fridge! , that's what she means! Comet do it. Well they're . I mean when I had we got C D serviced. And Don And I come and said sixty pound! No, but it be beneficial if it's Comet and the receipt came back for our insurance from Comet erm Dixons! They're all, they're all same, They're all the same. Comet and Yes. it's all owned by Kingfisher. Kingfisher. Because if we bought the fridge and the at Comet and collected the receipts back on the insurance . He said they're all the same. They're owned by Kingfisher ,. We we bought this fridge from Comet to keep the insurance I was Oh it's still working, yes. and he says that Well at least it's pounds off . Yeah, well mum's telly eleven . And they said to her now, not to insure it . When it's gone, it's now . . I tell you what you . It's something like a How much did it cost last time? I'm them over. Paul's mother's flipping well angry! Last time he that's my . Why does ? He, he might say to me you can't use . That's a load of nonsense! But I said to them,take that cheque . Oh fucking hell ! .Because mum's territory is there you got a few people complained! And it's . And sure it was . It's like I've got nothing to do! The . It's all downstairs. We've asked them to try. They're here to celebrate the . How long till you're back in your now then mum? You want to be sure of Comet. Ask where's my dealer? Where's the after sales service come from? Oh, especially with a . Mm. Why didn't he give you some Hotpoints? But who'd buy it then? That's where I've gotta go, yeah. No you, you go down , off and she said you can full holidays arranged daily, and we came that was on the Tuesday, the Wednesday I had to phone them, done on Friday! And they'll . That erm I'll never know! . I don't want that! Oh yeah! That's Yeah, and that's nice! Claimed about half of it. Never heard of it! Oh I know anytime She might have been . Or round? Yeah. on the Monday. It takes four Ah? or five . You can look! Mm. Hard cash! That one's a daisy! Innit beautiful! if you've got a T V remote control things Once he'd said that he'd . So you're lucky!, at least you know. Cos there's one problem that if you tape a programme . Mm. And all I remember is the then afterward . Well that's You can't ask I suppose? Yeah. Yeah. And it's three And they want forty the video innit? We could've had a two forty video tape, it said, two forty on it and when we put it in weren't it?. Said two forty on it, didn't it? Two forty box! Oh I shall . You can buy one video from here. Oh well How much does that cost? Only one eighty. How much did that cost ? He just, he just I do , you put it in the big shop didn't you? I put it in, okay , over er the pub at the end. You put it in, you don't go onto, you don't pay . Well we got so Phillips on the, on the sheet and er they're all . They're he got all the videos from the States,in the States. Sent over all these blooming instructions for the video was all I needed! And the American system from Argentina and er just you got the switch? Yeah, you got the No. switch here. But his accommodation over there. Unless you . Is that out there? She's coming back in the . cos she just took them off and then and now now she owes me something posh. And now . So where do you get your television teletext then? all in the remote control for the lot!. We were looking at the and not teletext. Which is the smaller any more. No! Not the one we looked at . Well mine and nana's isn't teletext. They're not all teletext? No , course they're not! Well it just shows The brand new ones. twenty, twenty one inch and not all of them with this. You can do it? Are they about about three. What? Oh! All you do turn on the thing No, you let him show me alright? No just show Yeah, alright then I won't move yet Where do I keep Mm. But he does to me! Oh right! Mm. Well I'm Yes. put down . Do you have to ? Yeah, well Ah but I walked through u Can he go out? Oh yeah. He's going now! Right! before it be, be uncomfortable will it? for him. But I'm inclined to Yeah. get a general impression right, cos Yes. I'm finding something totally wrong with and got shot of it and then things have been Well actually he didn't, but he says worse thinking he'd been to solicitors but I'm trying to track down anybody! Just trying to get some information. Apparently oh my God tha they're that much within the law. Yeah, that's what we've been told. They must have a legal section cos this is one of the biggest organisations,leisure group in Britain Yeah. for caravans. They, they, they,they own They're going to clear themselves aren't they? You clear you! More than that! Apparently They're not going to one man told me, he said well if you think you might get some money at the end of the season, he said, you may find that you'll be paying them at the end of the season! I mean, what's the good of it? Yeah, you see! Well we may as well have got that money and thrown it down the toilet! Gone straight in the bin! Well that's right! Straight away this year, you get a list through now, do you want winter cleaning done, curtains cleaned, Yeah. carpets cleaned, upholstery cleaned? Or outside valet, do you want the underneath painted with grease and everything? I say we did have it done. By the time you add all that up if you're not local. All your profit's gone! You'll you will end up paying them! Yeah. Yes. And then we paid for a winter clean. And it's filthy! Mm. I had to go down there twice To get it done! Okay? Because the windows were filthy! Twice, that we argued . Well, well you came here didn't you when the curtains hadn't been Jump down then Phillip! And when I spoke to Mr , I said well if I was renting a caravan and went to see it and it was dirty like that, I wouldn't want to take it on! And, I said surely you have somebody who goes round and checks them before they're let? No, he said! So what they do is, apparently they wait for somebody to complain Yeah. and then they look at the caravan! Do they? That's somebody who comes up to rent it! So I said and in that case then probably you move them into another caravan? Oh no, we clean it and they go into it! I said, you mean to say people wait around while you clean the caravan? I don't believe it! You're alright , you're alright for your holiday, find a caravan dirty, you've gotta complain before it gets cleaned! Ha! People will ! They can complain to the Tourist Board. to be done when he was he. Should be bloody licensed! You can did you say? You can. You can't! Well I shouldn't think so because Mum! they're not gonna want to know! They don't belong there. Yeah. and you can't complain to th , the Chamber of Commerce because if they show this up too much Temby's gonna lose a lot of trade! I don't want Yeah. Mm. I mean They have their, their I said to him we've been conned! I said we've been stitched up! That's how I look at it! I was furious last week! Mm, so I ju , I was just trying to find, but you see, there again you're new people, we found new people last week didn't we. Yeah. He wasn't happy that man. He bought a big caravan, he was very unhappy! There we are! The way they do No, but these caravans Should you carry on? I don't know, is it here or over there?. So you see, this is only way you can them! Get to a situation where you've had a caravan before and to make any money to pay, you've then got to buy another caravan to subsidise that one and you seem to be it's sort of like a chain all time. Mm. Yeah. And the profit you've had from one is paying the expense of the other! Tha , if you're lucky! Mm. Yeah. I mean we heard some horrendous stories last week, walking round didn't we? Yeah, we did. Cor talk about make your curl! Dreadful! Mm. So as I say, but I'm just resigned to it! So what would you have to do now then? Take your caravan off? We can't! Not allowed to move it! We co , I mean, what do you do? You lose the money you've paid for the site! Cos you can't take the site! Paid for the site! Plus the value of a brand new caravan!, they check! A lot of people buy these on ! Mm. Just pay cash Mum! for them. What darling? In the end we're gonna out. Can we ? We feel Mm? we're gonna lose not only any money that we get back on it, but we lose the letting money Mm. we lose the investment! Yeah. Yeah. Mm. We lose the Mm. out of the capital! You see? That's not a business venture! Well it is for them! That's right! For them it is , yeah it's a good one for them! They're too big to fight, that's the trouble isn't it? Are they? That's what everybody says! I see, I'm, I can't accept that, there's gotta be a way No! round it! No, I'm afraid not! I mean I don't care! I've, I've threatened him! I will be outside with a placard! Do not buy a caravan on Field Park! I've threatened him, that's what I'm going to do! of the er erm . I've seen it done last week,. Throw a brick through his windows! There's been nothing done! I'd love to do it to him! Well I've got to . Hang on! We don't know what that . pain! Alright! , was you was down here when I washed the caravan? No. No, it was dark haired boy. Was it? I know about your microwave. Ha? I know about your microwave. I used What? I used to know your husband,. Yeah? . Was he pissed? Yeah. What it See what is now When I drop this one round I'll tell you about then. Yes. Okay? Er Will we have hot water? Well Don't say no, cos I'm going home! Er You can What it is, there's new laws That's right. coming out now, it's no , nothing to do with us. There shouldn't be any water heaters in bathrooms, okay? Right? Now we're gonna get it moved okay? You can use it, but it's at your own risk, alright? Oh that's Well that's too Oh my God now ! Well what what happened? What are we sure's gonna happen as far as ? Well what it is you've used it all last year haven't you? Right? All you wanna to do is the ventilation on it. Do you? Okay? Er Oh . All, all our vans now are are to be re-flued. Yeah. Are you with me? Yeah, cos we saw one in that Oh that's right. kitchen . That's right. But what it is er they've been like that for years, like, in the bathrooms To daddy. and all! You know, I mean all it is like I say, it's I'd use it, put it that way. Right Yeah. I'd use it. Er, I would not have worries about it. But if something went wrong then do you ? Well all I do Come on! well I suppose it could be done. It would? Well all it is, is er the fumes Mum! given off from it. Are you with me? Yeah. Like say, if you were in there like and you've got a closed door Mummy, there could be a build of fumes. When we going? Do you see what I mean? Yeah. You know, that, that's the only thing er Alright. what it's about, like. Yeah. You know? It's not dangerous or anything, like, it's not gonna blow up or anything like that! It's just a carbon monoxide Yeah but as far as it's sa Enough to kill you! Yeah, but as far as it's B S standards go, if it's not B S standard approved No. that's the insurance on the No, well boiler. That's right. Yeah. So then are you telling me that these people are renting this place out? No, you can't rent it out until it's done you see? So when was that when was that done? This week. We come in in here last week! People were here last week then? Well I don't know that. Who, who put them in there? Town Park? Yeah. Who's the, who's, who's, who's the boss up here today? Yes, old age pensioners they were! I don't believe they were mind! Because the I don't think there was anyone in here this week! still on the . I don't think there was anyone in here Should be here. this week! Two people. Who's, who's, who, who's, who's the boss today up there? Well you wanna see er David . David ? Yeah. And he's there now is he? Yeah. Okay. Have a word with him. But that's what it is. I can't help with nothing else . Well that said erm supposed to use it like, yeah. As far as the leg , as far as getting the the flue sorted out in this, how long do you reckon it'll take? What do you say now? Er I know what! Well, like I said, one of his contractors are going out to , like. Yeah. That's why I like to know how when they're gonna do it like. So this caravan can't be rented out until it's sorted out, like? That's right. Yeah. And you don't know how long it's gonna be? Er I don't. I don't know how long it's gonna be, you know what I mean, I just So who covers the loss on the caravan and on the rental? that's not my So it's Dave again? that's not my place! Listen, you could He's the General Manager, like. Yeah that's Debbie should of come down . Yeah. But er that's, that's the reason for it like, you know? Well why what did you say then? We came down to wash the caravan Yes. Yeah. And on the windows was the had all been serviced. Yeah. And that blue thing now has gone on since! Tha , with red signs of all, across it! Yeah oh. Well they're doing them all now, for service Now, we were washing you know? washing the caravan on the Sunday Yeah. and people were to come in here on the Tuesday. Oh, well I I thought, I don't know . A bus load er a four, three or four bus loads from Lancashire somewhere. Lancashire or North of England somewhere. Saying there was, what say? Bus loads? Three or four bus three or four bus loads of . Old age pensioners! Pensioners! Last week? So they said! That's what they told us! Cos I said there's no way I'd sleep in it myself! Cos it was too damp! Well we never had any last week! Well somebody said it . I I I might, I might be wrong like! You know . Well that's what they said! I never see ! You'll see a bus up there won't you? Cos I'll . We're learning Are you , are you sure it was this week, it was supposed to be? No , not next week? Last week, cos I had to get it all! I had to have the bedding in here. Mum , can I ? You see the, the boy I mean that, that just got out? Yeah. He, it's his weeks holiday and he was going to come down Yeah. here for the week. Yeah. Now, there's no water here! Yeah. Well, no hot water ! Well that's what they told us, Yeah. and that's why we've Well that's like I say, with the We must have the caravan finished! the thermostat. Yeah, like I said with the actual water heater there, it's been, there's been water heaters in caravans like that for years! When we to You know what I mean? We only had this at the end of the Yeah. summer. And we've had trouble with it Yeah. all the time! Yeah. But er like I said, the fluing part of it, is, is out of our hands. It's not Yeah. it's not us who's put that on. Yeah. You know what I mean? The what, pardon? The actual water heater, the re-flueing of it. Oh! Oh! You know, the, the The gas people. it's yeah the gas council and all, like, these new bloody laws they've bought in like! That's right. Mm. That's why you can see they've all had them Yeah. they've had to extend the pipes all this and that like, you know? Yeah. But it's down to be getting moved. You know what I mean? But that's all it is, because it's in a confined space and with a shower going they're worried about fumes and all like, you know, the carbon monoxide, like, you know? Mm. Yeah. But er put it this way, I've been on courses, like I wouldn't I use it. You know what I mean? Mm. Cos er like I say, if I'd had a window open or so you know what I mean? That's right.. And all if it's a little nippy you . is it? But I said, that they've been in bathrooms for years like! You know they and smaller bathrooms than that like! Oh, well I don't know what to do! But like I said, it it's just, it's gonna get moved like, no cost to you like, you know what I mean? It's er Yeah. But an advantage to them! Is that what you mean? But if something went wrong then, this caravan was burnt that's the end of it! They might just take those down. Well i , cos the co , the insurance wouldn't cover it? Cos they have got these records will have these records. No, you'll have a certificate then, and all, saying that the caravan covered, it'll be tested every year then. So it isn't going to be used this week? But, no You know? not this week. No, not this week. So we shall lose our insurance? like that, yeah. innit? See that man and woman that , yeah? Did you see these people in there? What people? A man and a woman. There was two people sitting there. They've just gone out. No. After you came. Well they've, they bought a a caravan down here, a brand new one! Yeah. And they bought it last summer and they've had trouble ever since! And they're going around asking people what ! What's up with their's then? Well they've had to move the caravan ! It was dirty and damp and ! They're going round the caravans . Ay he hasn't come . Oh! Here Ricky! Yeah. I'd like one of your crisps. Any one would think that you were tired all day! Now we . And you weren't told there was gonna be ? No. What the hell are they talking about? Nothing! We knew that they were testing them, and checking it over and bringing it up to standard, but we didn't know anything about it other than that! Only . You take one, that's your one. Lovely! Well it wasn't me anyway, I don't know! Oh Mark'll be fuming that's for sure! Can he do ? No. But what's in it for me? .Ooh ooh! How do you do it?? Alright? Yeah. Well I don't know what to do now? I'll tell you what to do. Do you? Here without a damn thing, you can't use it can you? What do you think? you know? They never asked me if they could or the flue in so it's That's right, say it like that! never been repaired. neglecting the . Well having said, what, what is it all about? It's because the no, no water heater should be in the bathrooms! So where's that gonna go then? Well it must either go in the kitchen or in the cupboard somewhere, but you know? That's what they've er put it to. what you said to me. Oh yeah. Oh well we'll have to move won't we? Yeah. It's working, like gas-wise, like I say, it is it's virtually, it's just the ventilation clearing out the the fumes which are given Mm. off from it. Do you see what I mean? Well it is isn't there a, there's a chimney above there isn't there? Yeah. That's right, yeah, but but now like I said, you're gonna have to , to have your certain pipes. Like, have you seen them all going round? They got long poles on the back step. Will it'll be longer than that ? No cos they haven't done this one because it shouldn't be in here! Even in the fire? Yeah. Right. Yeah, I mean, it shouldn't be in here, like, that's why they haven't that's why they've put it there. That's why they hung on the to the shipment cos these aren't supposed to be in the bathrooms. Right. You know what I mean. You know? The Alright I think there'll be a lot of people who won't move off to be honest! They won't do? , cos they won't er go to the cost of them. But, like I say, we're covering that, like. You know what I mean? Hoh He's bloody ! He didn't know. He doesn't know, he's the only one I can think of. He , he's, he's not in a position to say whether he knows or not. He says he doesn't know! Oh! No, well I It's nothing to do with him! It's not his department. But he said there is a gang going round, and some are putting the chimneys on and the others are going in and doing the flues. And he said, it looks as though they've put the chimney on and found that the flue is the ba the boiler's in the bathroom, so they've had to come down here. Said because it shouldn't have a chimney on it! But he said, I don't know it's no , nothing to do with me! It's the No. Bri it's the British Gas that's doing it! Oh well that's right he's gotta blame somebody! But he said, I would do it because I know, I've worked for the Gas board! Mm. I would know how to handle it. I said, well there's one thing certain, I can't! Perhaps , pay good money for it! You said somebody wanted to know about . Mum! No, it, it, Mum! and she's going round, she's gonna try and take them to court! So she should! It's bis , I think they mean business people! .And she's going she got out papers and pencil! Taking names and addresses who'll back her up! Mum,. You could see through the window. And the rain comes in when you open the door! Blimey! And she said and he said, well they told didn't they? Got three bus loads, three or four bus loads of people! Yes of old age pensioners coming down! She said , they hadn't! She said! And they're in We haven't had anybody have we? Mum, will daddy be here? Why doesn't daddy come? Granddad. He'll bloody come next week. Next time. Why? Cos I'll make him! We let him out . No, I've been meaning to. Come on Mark! See you later! Mark'll go bananas I expect! Well now how long have they known you were going to rent a caravan? Well it's been booked for three or four weeks hasn't it? Ooh , more than that! on the bed. I was taking a long time! What? They're supposed to Ha! Ha! to pay people to come and clean the caravan out at the weekend. No, I mean this flue thing should of been . The caravan's been cleaned! Well you says they hadn't even washed the curtains! I'll leave it till next week. What? I'll leave it till next week! You said they hadn't washed the curtains! They're not washing the curtains, they're putting new ones in! Yes, well that's their er stipulations and that's what they're supposed to do once a year! It hasn't been done has it? No, they're not! Danny's paid for new curtains to go up! Yes, I know! But they haven't done it! Mum! No! So that's another twenty, thirty, forty, fifty pound in their pocket! No, cos they're doing it! will you shut up and wait! Why? That's why! was closed? Yes yes, they're not opening till next week are they? Next week, is it warmer? Mum ! You've just had ! So next time you come down it will be open and then you'll be able to go. Oh, poor dolly! What can I do first? I think ours and all will be going home. Going home minute of the day! No I bloody haven't! I kept the ! And that woman!! I went out to check the date on the and to turn the place over. Gees I was shocked! Brand new! She owned it! Mm, yeah she had a with her! And I couldn't wait you see. Well I'd have had it all on tape! Have you gotta ? Have you? No, you'll have to get in touch. I'll just pack things all up shall I? Ha? What about these ! Diamonds What are they? rubies, no, and pearls Emeralds are they? emeralds there! Yeah, and a ruby on the other! You found the good bit ! Mm. Well wait and see what er Mark has got to say. Mm . laying properly. Aha? No. Let Danny do it. That's them gone! What's ? Was that them? I don't know! No it wasn't. Some Who No was it? . So what did she say to you when she went? She said . This woman and man. Oh she said we'll make enquiries she said. She was going on about the grass they've left on the Do you think I could leave it just there? But she was in a frenzy you could see that! Yeah, she was a bit! She's looking for somebody to back her up! Mm. And that's why I cannot get involved. But we're gonna do it and she says she hadn't as yet! That's what she said. Mm. . I don't think she said she's doing extra! She says you'll have the bill for this! Yeah. A man just stated it! That we're taking responsibility we'll be moving out! We won't get paid for it! We wanted to charge them! I don't know anything them see. It might be that they're in under promotions team. Their only parking! I see us having to Perhaps last year. perhaps erm perhaps they're only parking their caravan on the . And only letting it to friends and I suggest Mm. their grandson. But er somebody was in and left it all filthy and mouldy and what for! Oh! Yes? Had the cleaner gone in it? I don't know . I don't think so, no. How? Because er, I've seen it and dirty and that. And they're bloody cooker's filthy! It's true! I have seen it. I don't think it's really clean, and they charge you for it! Of course they do! They're out to get all they can out of them! Mm. As he says it, it's the biggest holiday And company in Britain and he said er, they just keep under their Yeah. legal limit! He said. You can't get them to admit that. And, and they'll keep all the profits that they can! They're not gonna let you get away with a lot! You know, such as new curtains! They try to bother them. And I dare say, like these he said they they've paid for their caravan, cash! So that's close to ten thousand pounds! And they thought it was an investment! Where as now they find it had been better for them to have left their in the bank! Didn't say it so many words, but that's what he meant! And an investment on ten thousand's about twenty pound a week! So it's a lot of money to , I would think. Perhaps he can She said thought, she'll only only let it out about six or eight times through the year! Well they haven't got total control over letting it! . No. Perhaps they'll go. Mark is making his will isn't he? Ah a good ! Oh she's left her dolly in there! Ooh God, Sally was taking her out! Who's key are all those? Dunno,. I dunno! Oh, she's, she coming back, look, there's her book and her pencil. Mark. Well Sally was right anyway. This is the caravan here. Sally will take it off, Mark's . I don't know what this is. Oh! I know she bought any there's her roller skates! Oh yeah. Oh well, I'm off! I know, he was going into the office! Why? I can't find he's not in there in reception? Perhaps he's gone to shops? I don't know which way he's gone then. What's surname? erm No. ? Dunno! Perhaps you ought to look for a phoney. In the phone book see if there's any there? I dunno! Then we can ring them, see what happens. When we get home then. Yes. But what if Oh look! Silly isn't he! What about her doll and things? I'll bring everything home if I'm going home. Tara She said they're getting money for nothing! Hey? ! Now we'll go and find mum. Mm. I can't remember, the man he said . Keep it on Ooh! enough will be used at from it. Oh!and all do you think? What kind is it? A recording? Yeah, a Walkman. It's recording everything. You put the headphones on and you can listen to your choir! Which is far easier than the one you were using. Mm. Oh, you put one of them in! Well it's going round like hell, any how! Well yeah, it's taping your voice! Oh! Oh, I hope it heard something nice ! Yes, well they're listening for slang ! Oh! Oh my God! I said to her check the phone boxes and Penny's in there phoning Danny and , and bloody Lorna! Mm. I re , I er I co , heard Sally And down there counting phoning them. but I didn't know who it was and I thought, God, has Danny arrived! He does sound, that woman! Can't understand her! Oh yes She's out! I can! She's in piling a bloody list! Yeah, I'm, I, I can't And she's got it down where do I can't you come from? Your name? I thought when I was looking at her talking and I thought, you're a school mistress. I wouldn't say that, I'd have said , she's a landlady. And this is extra. Oh I would have said she was a school mistress. And her her bed and breakfast is Was a school mistress! bed and breakfast is er paying keeping this caravan. No, I would say that they were And it's not retired and he's had a good job in his time. And, and this was a little Well I feel he's But I said to him. No. I said to him er that er it was an extra and he said that was the object of it. Helps the pension. You know? He didn't say it in so many words, but Mm. It was an investment, that's what I said. Mm. He said yes. So I shouldn't be surprised, they're both retired and, and er pension. She said they've had they've had a couple of days out here trekking, trying to catch people! Their pension is their pension and their bit of income keeps them, and that's all sort of thing, in a little bit of luxury. He she's looking for tenants! No. How, I did you find it clean? Mm. You know, are you happy with er arrangements then? What did you think of cleanliness and Oh well of course that And then perhaps she'll take their names and addresses! Yes. And the date see, Mrs so and so was in that caravan on such and such date! If ever it came to court! Cos he said somebody's got to bring them down! Mm. And he said, we're disgusted with our caravan! Yes. Well of course, that might be a private ! Well that's what I would say about this if this was new I wouldn't let people go in! Theirs might be a private caravan on the site, and le , like Jackie's. And letting it as private. See, Jackie won't let anybody in her caravan. But she said they've let it to people and they've just wrecked the inside of it! Everything she said! It's a total mess! And it's a brand new last July we've had it, she said! Mm. And it's filthy ! Mm. And she said that everything was mouldy in er you know the even the curtains were mildew! And how did she put salt round? Because this is a hell of a lot damper today than what it was when I had the salt about you. you but er some people Course not! Yes. Well I'd never heard of salt being put down before! But she yes, she told me that in all, in the shop. In the reception. She said, put it Yeah, well down. yeah, these might tell you but I always heard that salt was damp! Yeah but it attracts the The water in the the air, into the salt! and of course, once it's in the salt, it's steams! Well it's only now it feels like this! It was not like this when we were down here washing it. Well that's common sense when you think about it isn't it? You put, you put a drop of water on it you put er a bowl of salt and that will go down eventually! Mm. If the air is damp. It's collected the water . Once that's damp, that's rising the steam! So how else do you keep it dry? She said, straight to me now! I said that caravan is soaking wet, I said! The mattresses! mm. And she said er well it does take time for them to dry out doesn't it, she said? But I, there was people in it last week! Yes I know, she said! Well if she's covering I said well there's no way I she is paid to cover the boss! There's no way I'd of slept in it, I said and not I wouldn't of done it! Let alone, old age pensioners, I said! And you know we've been to a few caravans Go in that end bedroom and feel the bed! that feel a bit, caravans that we used to go to were like this chalet. The chalets we used to go to Mrs er I can't remember her name now! But her boys used to run steam roller outside middle house and I used to take them in. She used to see that the beds were aired. She did see to them! She put oil heaters in the caravan and she kept the the mattresses in her bungalow! She'd only got about eight caravans then. And then we went in and had a caravan somewhere up by Aberystwyth, Ginnie and me, and you kids. That was an old farmer's caravan weren't Yes. it? But it wasn't too, that was too damp to sleep on! who won the bloody war,roof up weren't it ! There wasn't, there wasn't a cup and saucer each! Remember? Mm. And these are no better! I mean, caravans are caravans, call them what you like! Only one saucepan we had! And it was stew everyday if we didn't go out for dinner! Ah! And you Remember that cup of tea? Remember that cup of tea cos the water gave out on us at one stage! Yeah, we had to walk across the bloody fields for water ! And milk. Yes, friendly woman at the farm! We should have had a time, we'd of had to go home! Well who's caravan was it? Oh somebody who's lived er out Gloucester ! Yes I know! Perhaps that's where Aunty Ginnie got her But er bug from ! But erm the people at the farm they were supposed to seen you know, for her? She made out that she was paying at the farm to clean it. Did you tell them that in the farm. Well Ginnie did! Got her to do the dirty work for for free ! Well same when we went and found them boys in it! Oh he's walking back home in temper now ! Well it was a job to get in here just after ! And now you're on the staff! Oh shush here's Now he somebody! No, he's got another one! No. Yeah , they got a job to get him back! Well it's clean here is it? People have Yes. left it clean? They haven't been here! There's been nobody here! Come and have a look! Cos everything is, as I left it! How long do I keep that for? Somebody else been here,. This water heater is not to be used as it failed to reach the er oh well I now! Wait, and I'll go and find out! That's for the bed er television and the microwave. This and the water heater. And ask her about the water heater cos if I can't take a shower I will stink! Funny way of running business any how! Look at him with the bloody roll in the window! Oh . But er, Danny says that they said that they were People had been in! overflowing! Yes I know, but he he said people are in last week! But that's what They're overflowing with bookings for the summer! Oh! And now? Yeah, cos they could have three times as many caravans! By June they'd let them go! They're overflowing with them! Not now! Of course, you see, it's you that's using the caravan this week so they can come here they can they? No. Somebody comes quick and wants the caravan they're supposed to be there ready! Oh! Ooh the sun is warm! Can you feel it? Is it the sun or is it this heater ? You can just see Oh I dunno, maybe the sun! maybe, maybe, maybe! Oh, and he's taking Tarzan for a walk! Is that Sally?. Mm? Who's with her? it's somebody else! Right! Go and see her! I dunno. Ha? I dunno. What do you think,? Now erm Mrs and I down the caravan park. Right. Yeah, they were . But people were in last week! Mm. Erm,. What? Cos I came down! And I cos I was amazed they told me about this salt rubbish! So I did it and bowls are full of water! I was shocked! And then, I thought well I gosh this caravan isn't is it because the salt had gone? I i , it could be because it feels quite cold and damp . Anyway there's er there's no ! There's no television in there! Right. There's and there's a big sign on the water heater it's not to be used! Right.. And I said we are going back home! Er would you Yeah. er Yes, and I will from the . Yeah ? Yeah. Right, I'll go and get the . And I said there's a Did you tell him, as he's threatened to come home? down there now. She said she's trying to find it. Suppose we better go back home! Going in the shop first. Why is it? She's got no excuse! I'll go down there first. To tell them not to mess about with that water heater! Ohhh She didn't know! I said well when I was here last that sign wasn't on the thing then! Don't forget! And I'll put them back in the back . Is that the door key? Who's in the toilet? Is ? He's gone in there. I'll take those out the window. What? What? Co they're coming down now. Er I said, that the sign on the washing thing washing thing wasn't there last. Darren put the microwave into store. And the telly is in store, and they'll be bringing that right now. Right, what about the what about the water heater? The microwave's with . He took the microwave! No , darling, because it just stays there. Yeah, right what about the water heater? That's the more important thing! She said, she didn't know but she getting somebody down here now! So we still don't know whether that's gonna be operational! Because, according to B S standards Yes. that should be ripped off the wall, like! Right! Well I don't know because they've put new flues and everything on these fires. I don't know! And she's getting somebody down now! Oh. So I haven't been to the shop yet. Oh! As long as they come down in the next twenty minutes! Otherwise I'll go up there! It was alright last season! Yeah! She doesn't understand it herself! I said we were here doing the caravan, it wasn't there then! Somebody's been in! Somebody did, they was there was two people in here last week! What to rented it? Yeah. Two old age pensioners. They're supposed to be ! In the end,! What, so these two people have been in here, staying here, no television, no microwave? Yeah! Two old age pensioners! Are they ripping them off then? The old age pensioners are paying for a caravan including these, you know, facilities, and the people don't get them! I don't know! But that's what she told me! I'll see about mic , microwave in the house. No, it isn't! Mum! , what's on the bloody thing there? The bur , the blue thing? Can you read it from the inside? I'll go outside Mum! and see it. Yeah. Water heater flue tested, failed! Well that's a big job! Mummy! Well it's up to them put it right! Mummy! Yeah but what I'm saying is that's my week up the spout like, innit? Mummy! Er well how much Oh by the way, Sally's got the shopping. be here? Oh we'll wonder shall we ! Oh well come round and tell us! They they should have been, they, if they failed Come on! it, they should have reported it to you! That's what Only getting cold water!. See . I can't do any more than that! I'm not taking it out on you! I'll take it out on them! I just burnt twenty quid on food and if I stay here to eat it I'll take it out on them! You, you're paying you're paying us Ooh look at that! a lot of money Ooh! for them to give you this kind of service! Your mirror's not back either! No! A man stole it! A man called Mark! No! Have you tried lighting that boiler then? No. light it! What if it blows? And I'll touch it later when let them do it! Ha ! Ah? That lights working. She said it's electric and gas. I said, yes, we've lit the fire in the bedroom! Course it's electric, you put the fridge on before! And I said I put the fridge on. bulbs are . And I said when we went in, I went in to show Mark now, but I said I can, you can do it myself. I was going in I was gonna ask somebody to come down and show us how to light the boiler. And I said there's a big blue sign across it, not to use it! Do not use! I said to her,that! Mum! I said well it's there, I said! And we haven't touched the ! Mummy,, watch me! Not very soft!! I better show off them big ! Do ! Still wobbly innit? We'll we'll lend you which says only . It's Do you think they'll be long? Not long, why? Why is the man going to come here? It's in the car!. In the car. Go on then! Come back here! But then I wished they were a bit later! Come out here! Go on! Go and ! I'll hide from . Mm. Shall I? Quick! Yes, go and hide! Why? I'll start. We're going to bloody The night bad week a, a week's in Darren put the microwave into store!! Why didn't he leave it alone,? Switched off. That's it! And you've got it at home really. It was in store! You've got it at home! So it's at home? Put it in store, so he's finding another! Right! Said he Mum! the water now! For Christ's sake! Mum! Have you thought about Why? going to that fair yet? No, cos we So you're basically So what you're saying is you're No it doesn't matter! Oh God! I'm gonna fetch my mother in! For God's sake! Right! Right!! Are you coming to sit in? I don't know where, when they'll come! So you've got to wait? We'll have to! We'll have to get your bags all in there if we're not stopping, we can't stop! There's a great big thing on the front go home! .Leave your bag in the car mum. Oh! We'll have to stay here . There's nobody at the house. . Course you can! What? What's all this? but now they've put it . All in there. Plenty of room for the chair. Mm? Room was just alright for the . They knew you were working yesterday! What is ? on there. are my . Ooh! Look at me! Look at me! I'm in here! Alright. I'm gonna get the bed! Oh crafty! Mind your fingers! . Well I shall make the beds anyway. Has anyone not got a map here? Yeah. Is it up there? I don't know! Why don't you ? Now, who got the cigarettes? Oh, some of them are outside, yes. And in ten minutes if they ain't down here, I'm going back up there! What you going back up there for? To get them to remember you. I'll walk up there and he'll be coming back down, he'll give me a lift back down. This is the bit where mama says I'm just like Susan , I'll have a go at it, I'll demand it! Susan says she does it, but she doesn't really do it! Yeah well, where as I will then! Ah shut up for half an hour now will you? Erm Half an hour! Half an hour! The er the gas stoves doesn't! The gas is on! Oh, it's on? Oh I can see now, yes! But without that heater they've got no hot water, no nothing! No. Have they? So how could they let it out to Yeah, that's what Paul said! Old age pensioners? But it wasn't here! It wasn't on then! No, I've er, I, I, think it happened since. And you see er it's one of those things that can wait. But all were these were ta er all these were tested. Well Dave's done it! Before we came down here to clean the caravan. Cos the man said to me, look you've got a new flue on! And that one over there has as well! Well that fail sign wasn't on the caravan when we was doing that axle underneath. No, because They were saying what The blue one was on saying it had been tested! That's not to say it failed! No. Oh! Well I come down the week after that. There's a on then! Children to sit on! Look! I don't! Here they are then! I don't why it's for children to sit on it! Not or potatoes. Those pretty earrings you got! Where did you get those from? Susan gave them to me . Susan did! Mm. Oh! Well come and let me look at them. look at your new jumper now. Well don't pull them! Oh they are pretty aren't they! Little flowers! Makes you a little clown doesn't it? No, you're a little clown! Ha! Has anybody Hello darling! Little darling! I'm not Ha? a dog like you are! Perhaps he's working . Could just have forgotten ! Who's that? What's what? God knows! Ha! Ha! Ha! Sally you're windows, I can't open! Here comes . What? Inside? Yeah. Oh well! I nearly trod on your fingers then didn't I? Did I? Mm mm mm. Yeah I thought I'd seen cloud on top on the hills. That's what you think! Maybe! Oh I don't think, they only had the telly . Oh dear! Let her bloody, it's not cold! I know cold! Ooh look at dolly's knickers! Just look at those! Ooh! When they come down then do we or what? And then ! Ooh I told Got a tow truck? I've counted about seventeen to twenty caravans. And there was er Oh you haven't been your wearing your glasses ! ! There was erm Mum! six people. Er two two of them Mum! five adults and a little one a baby one went Mum! along there Shall I sit on here? and the caravan next the one opposite the shop Just sit here then. or the business go to your room. caravan next door Do I have to go to sleep? and those people got out a and I've seen. So there are a few We're not going to be here tonight! in the, in the . Yeah. Can we are we going to ? I don't know ! See what time we've got left! This is what I do to my teddy just hold her by her leg nice teddy, look! You're dolly! Ooh! Ooh!! Oh! Have to get another sober! . A bird on the roof! Walking about. Can we walk to grandma? I don't want to! Well you just play there! In his Yes and there's a bird on the roof and he was trying get up there to see his mummy! Yeah! Here he comes! What? Good luck! ? Mm. Mhm. Sorry! . Where does this mattress belong ? Off this bed in here. Mum!? Can you hold on! What's that? Playing on the roof again. . Perhaps he's flying down the chimney. I saw something! At the door! It's open then is it? And again! Help! He should do! Mm mm mm, mm mm . Do you know what, we haven't played any games? Haven't played the what? No, she wants to go up to that playgroup ! After! Later! Later? Later, we're going home! Have to get ready for work! We shall have to go up there Not today! We will . Can we have another? Gotta go work mum! Come on mum, be the host! Make a cup of coffee! We're all dying of thirst! Oh that's an idea! Maybe we'll do two at a time . Never thought about that! Shall we go see that thing,pool where you play in? In between, it's got yellow flags. I'll just get . Later! But, we're going home later! Yeah, we have, I've gotta wait for the man to come! Why? I know , no hot water! Oh, no hot water! You won't be able to wash your face! Mum! Mm? When I went into the can we play? Please? Please mummy! Do you know she's a little Mum! bit, ain't she? What? That cardigan isn't too long for her! Can I No. mum? Mum, can I? Can I? then going to the shop. Don't why? Oh, I've gotta go to reception first. Go to the shop. Where you going? Are you going We're collecting now, wait! What do you want from the shop? Do you want some . Some . Did you get one? Yes. Where's her shoes? Take me! So you're going up ? Well , not yet. I'll wait and see what happens! Well you can come back and I'll tell you what happens! I'm going up to reception. So as I can take her for a ride and back. I don't want to go for a ride! I want to go that ! Oh, that isn't until next Monday dear! Monday or Tuesday. And it's Saturday today. Now then Saturday No, it's the one with the slide! Yeah, well it isn't open until Monday or Tuesday. So it's Saturday today Can we go and have a look in case she's wrong? Can we? I'll pop you out in the bag in a minute ! Can we? Why nanny! I don't know! I've got to wait for the man! Okay. Mummy will. Oh ! Pull yourself together Sal! Ha! I can come with you then. nappy! Why, why does the man wanna come? Mind you don't fall! Why does wanna come? Just seeing why the water heater isn't working! It is working! It isn't working! Which heater? In the bathroom! It won't get hot! The water doesn't get hot! And it should when you have a bath shouldn't it? Mm. Do you know what? When when the have Once upon a time! Get off! When Come and get and get your skates in the car! Why? Cos we will have to go in the car. Oh have you got your skates? Mum! I want to go down see it. We'll see that in a minute. Okay. Gonna bring your bike down there?. Stop it! We go and . She even said it was quiet! I know, there's no crowd about! Yeah! Well Now's the time to learn innit? You've gotta put Put a size of a on it! Mummy, I want to go! Well you've gotta put your wellies on and You gotta put your shoes on! Ha? Put your shoes on, quick! Have to put your roller skates in the car. Outside. Your shoes! Not inside! Get them on! Why? Well, no why's about it! Get them on! No! Yes! No! Right this very minute! Wow you Else I shall say ding dang on your bum! You can't make me!cos cos you're not gonna I'll give you a smack bum! Urgh You still got ! Here mum! Mum! Mama ma Yes alright dear. You've gotta have it done! They're your snow boots aren't they? I just go Come on then! I will ! Are they snow boots? No, they're Mountain climbing boots. Mountain climbers! Oh weh climbed up on . Do you want your coat on? Did they know that they we , these were coming down? Yeah! And Mark, definite cos it's on the papers, it's on the books! We asked them . Mm. That's why ask what time of year! This is, God, a bloody afternoon wasted! Damn thing's gonna be a bloody pest! It will go! How much a week rent do you pay for ground? No, it all comes out at the end of the summer, see. Yeah, but d er, do they tell you how much they take out? Yeah. It's all laid out. Ha QQ ho ha . Are the at the back any different is it? Yeah. But er, I think that the the tiles a bit near the woodwork. Mhm. Look at her, going on down the road! Oh she's got her bike. Roller skates. Oh! She'll never get her to go like that cos her legs are too stiff! Oh, she like . Making harder work ! Mm? Making harder work for herself! Mm mm! She's come off! They're walking. Hark at the wind coming in through the Fire, the vent. Mm. No. Sorry to trouble you, do you own the caravan I'm renting? I own them. You own it? Oh!erm we own a caravan. Could you tell me have you been very happy with the services ? How everything works out, the parking charge Come in. and that?. Well come in! Thank you. I don't really know much about this cos my son does it all. Oh I see! Hiya Hello! I'm cold! You know Nice way to get warm! Yeah ! . Erm I don't really know much about it this is our first spring, you see? There's all grass on there! Is it? So this a new I'm afraid I brought that in ! Did you? Yes, it's off my feet! We've been ploughing all over the grass! I'd better stand God! out there really! You stand out there then! I don't want to walk all over your carpet! Oh ! There's a there Yes. and stand right on it! Erm Get tho get those stools out. Is it a new Yeah. one then? Yeah, I mean Not brand new! It was new to us! Was it? Yeah. So this is your, really your first year is it? Yeah. And, are you going to let it out? No. Oh! Why? Well, we bought a caravan last year actually at the end of May Yeah. Yes. And erm Move out the way! we it we don't think it was let out very often. That was through to the end of September. When we came up to see it well it was a brand spanking new Yeah. we nearly cried! It was in such a state! Only had it for a few months. Upholstery, carpets the bath the toilet the cooker, the fridge the whole lot was filthy! And when we think that we saw it when it was new! Yeah. And I went storming down to the office, didn't I? And I said renting it, because it must of been occupied by animals! Mm. It was disgusting! Animals and . Ah know Well we've stated Yeah. It doesn't matter what you state, cos we had heard from other pe , I've been doing this, I've been up here last weekend cos I am so angry about all this! Well we've had a little It's just a joke! problem now! That's why we're here. Really? Ah! Er there are so many with nothing Well we came to do with these . We came down my son came down here month and he and er, put red lead all underneath it. You know the ? Following Sunday I came down to wash it and polish it and now we've got blue stickers in the bathroom the heater! We had a message And the through And the boys come down for a week! And they know it! How many Here did they do? Here he is coming back! Be careful, the door opens outwards! We erm we had a letter through but it was to test the boilers, because . So we did and we've Yes. heard no more about it! Ah well I got a thing tested on ours thought ours was alright. I hope so! Well there's a great On the Sunday we were here Oh was it? that blue thing was on the window! That's to say water? But now it's got red across it, failed! And that wasn't there . And you've got to pay more money to make sure it's put right! I don't know! Yeah you do! There are! Didn't know anything about it! You do! They tell you that! The whole thing is just There are no rules. This is this . See, ours was nineteen ninety one because it You're joking! was er absolutely Three years, or two years, I dunno! Ah well cos I think the newer one will be this is some government thing to do with the gas. I mean with fitting the Yeah. flue. So we had all that consequently! Mm. And erm Hey! some of them of failed, and if they fail you have to pay so much. You have to pay so much anyway to have it changed. But, as I say, we've been very unhappy about it! We had erm notes through about Out of ten pillows, seven needed replacing and we needed a new milk saucepan, a new frying pan, a new ashtray Mm! cleaners etcetera! So, I replaced most of them myself and then whenever we came down course we complained about the cleaning! When we came down well it was still less that desirable! It's terrible! And erm The cooker was filthy! Yeah! The fridge had mould in it! All what? I mean we're talking about a thing that's been used for a couple of months! Yeah. Then he came in er sort of right at the end said, well look, I'm so cheesed off with you lot can't we do anything about it? She said, look let me know, how much it's going to cost me to get rid of this, because I've had enough! And we've only just bought it ! Well So er June , last year. June , yes. And so er He came back then erm I think you can understand! Is this your so, they won't give us caravan? No. They won't quote any Oh! price! They quote anything! So you find you're, you're on your own! Yeah. And erm you know, if we pay up Everything is it's cost a fortune to actually the caravan sited pay out six thousand quid right? And then, you have to let it out then. Through them they have to have first option. They're the one that gets the benefit! Well two weeks ago But then they can't sell it! They can't sell it! And that's only the new one! Cos they said, I won't be able sell it cos they they've got so many new ones on the site! Last week there was people in here! So how could that water be like it is? Cos you can't use it! There is no hot water! Well he can't! Well everything everything is in their favour. And I've well the people, all the people I've spoken to and everybody I've spoken to is very unhappy! I haven't spoken to one who's satisfied yet! I've been on the telephone to people! I'm taking numbers off of caravans where they're letting and I've been round and spoken to people who are in them caravans, and not one is happy! Last week a chap down here, David Yeah. Told me, he said, well ninety five per cent are happy. I said, really? Well I haven't found one yet! Out Yes. of all the people I've spoken to! What did they say now? They're all very unhappy! I tell you! This woman doesn't know anything, like! She just said there's two boys out on there on site and the one, the, the ginger haired boy knows the you know the problem. And I Mum! said, well look I said, I don't wanna know Hold on! that! I said, is this he , water heater gonna be ? I don't know! I, oh it's alright, she said it's in the bathroom? I said yeah. She said well he knows about it, it's all in hand! Well Well I that's no good to me, like! No! No it's He said he'd be one of the first. He's putting the flues on and he hasn't come down to check it so if he's down here I'm gonna bloody tell him. pipes like that Yeah. Oh. And still they've condemned it. Yes, it's surely their van. And other flues all down along there. Mm. All on the grass see? It's coming out of here. This bloke, he said. One of them goes round putting the chimneys on and the other checks the flue. Oh. So I'll tell him that the fire will be on. Mm. There's some in the van there. They're pretty good ones aren't they? Having their dinner. Yeah. That looks nice. Perhaps they've been in and done it now. bloody thing. Well the one door is empty and And the first booking for the caravan, she just said it again. I've got it on my tape is th the twenty first of March. When the first comes in? When the first comes in. On the twenty first of March. And Danny said the third . Third did he?the first which was the Sunday and he had to get it ready because they were coming in on the Tuesday, on the third. That's why there was such a mad panic to get it done on the Sunday the last day before So why are the mattresses back there getting bloody damp? Oh I forgot to give him them. Mark isn't coming over to pick the car up. He doesn't want to. He's enjoying his break. Oh he's He's alright a couple of days and getting old I think. Mark loves it. Loves being on his own. Ah but he don't get the chance does he? Although I like being by myself. But then I different age isn't it, to ? What the bloody hell is that? Montrose twenty eight. R twelve. Well it's the key of somebody's cottage It's the key of somebody's caravan but it's not ours. Perhaps it's the one he's got. I'll go and try these in the door now cos this is ours. the door. Look at that old thing squat on the roof. It is. But they've got the bloody labels mixed up by the look of it. Try them both. Yeah I'm gonna try the both. That is it. Well what the hell is that? Montrose, twenty eight. R twelve and that one's J twelve. Oh, well what's the other one? this is. Oh well anyway it's a code name, it's no business of yours. But what number's on the other one? one. what? This is the owner's set, a Mr . Well who's are these? Well you'd better see Mark first and and let them have them back. Mark. It's nothing, these aren't nothing to do with Mark. Oh. They belong in the . It smells musty in here. Yes. This is a caravan smell and Mrs 's clothes used to stink by it. Mm. Oh I don't believe this! Couldn't be bothered to shop. I'll give them all to Mark. And then I'll go up the shop and get some, I'll need a couple of boxes. Where's the microwave? Ooh god . gas on or should we turn the lights on so we can get the No paper. I've gotta have er paper to leave messages. I was gonna ask Mark for a pen. I've got a pen and I've got paper. A big note. So that I can say the fire's burning. Mm. Well you can call by and tell him that. Yeah but I want it for the men that's going to alter the gas. Oh. For signs. I'm gonna put one in there one on the kitchen You'll have to buy a paper pad that's all . and one by the fire. Yeah. Then all the doors should be open see. They are damp but they don't feel too bad No. See if they leave the doors open it's not too bad. Oh well. coat hanger on the floor. Feel this and feel those beds in there. But I mean this is a er er er His home. Yes but it's a a cold room No that's wet. Yes it's wet. Well these were too weren't they? And he's stuck them by the fire. Yeah them all . Well I'm just gonna get the paper and that's it. Costing a bloody fortune. Eh? To light the fire. goes out and Yeah. any toilet paper. No paper or Haven't got pens there. No pens. No tissues. Any tissues? No. Erm How many pieces of paper do you want? Too hard. Let's go down the toilet, see if it's open. No wait a minute. No wait a minute. disconnected the gas, took that bloody old heater off, connected it up somewhere else and whatever they're gonna do and then the gas is coming through a fire. Well Mark is there. We can pop across and see. He's not gonna go round the caravan and try each bed out is he? He said he was going to and see that it was done Mhm. things were done well that's a matter of . Oh it'd be better for him to put that fire on at night time and go over in the morning and switch it off. Well be at work before he can be out of bed probably, in the morning. Have to . And if he's gonna walk to Tenby they could be starting when he's in Tenby. Well Sally will be there. Well Sally'll go with him. Yeah? I mean if, if he forgets Sally could remind him. Two of them. If those men wasn't going there I would say right, put the gas fire on. Put it on low and leave it the night and day cos it was left on for a week once wasn't it? Mm. Oh god that was, that was at er the flat. Left on for a fortnight. Oh and it was a cold day. But it was in August or the end of September or someth er er the beginning of September and it was a chilly day but it was still summer. It wasn't, you know, it wasn't terribly cold. But we went home and I remember going in the room, I opened the door and oh it's lovely and warm in here! So I stood by the door I wait till dad come in cos he was the last out and it was always my fault like, I would have left the fire on not him. So I stood by the door and I never moved till he went in oh he said But with a caravan I don't know. Mm they're not very powerful grates are they? Dunno Oh nan he says, get Mark Is, is yours a heater? Mm? Is yours a a long and Well you either put one bar on or the lot is on or it's very dim like this is low and you can't see it at all. There's no heat from it. You want something that gives heat There is heat. But you can't see it. Oh. But you want to air them beds, you want to dry them beds. I mean you've got to have heat there. Well Danny says get Mark and bung them in the bloody car and bring it home. the best thing you want to stick it in the room and put a heater . Well we could put it in the spare bedroom. Put it up against the radiator. Mm. But if someone's going there next week, that's two beds, three beds. You could put them in the sitting room. And put the heater on there, put the fire on there. Mm. Well I dunno. I do like this. I'm afraid I You don't have to. Have a drink and it disappears. Oh I dunno And there isn't the flavour in it that used to be. And this is Marks and Spencers? Mm. There's a you know they used to put I suppose vanilla essence or some of these no almond would it be? Mm. I don't know. There used to be a lot more taste on it though than there is on that one anyway. Well if he's going down there tomorrow why can't he bring them back? Well I suppose he could. I have to say it would help him. I suppose they're I suppose they're worrying him? They want something done about it. Well I wouldn't bloody . No way. That thing on top of that mattress, the thing that doesn't fit who's is that? Oh theirs. Dunno. Belongs to the caravan Yeah. Well that's what I mean, belongs to the caravan. Why was it stuck on the bed? Because that is the mattress for the bed that folds away in the sitting room. Right? But it seems to me to be a foam thing. It is. And it's covered in a, in a po polythene would you say? Plastic or what it is covered? Cloth. Cos you couldn't put that by the fire. Yeah. It would melt. It's a cloth cover on it. But I bet it's plastic inside it. It's like these cushions isn't it? It's foam. Yes. Foam. But why was it so damp and cold here then? Because it's wet and it's damp. Well plastic doesn't hold the damp. It isn't plastic, it's foam! Well the foam, it doesn't Oh god, yes. Well you couldn't put them in the car could you? What? The mattresses. Mm? Well I've put the big one in but I know that the rest wouldn't go in. Mm. But then the little bedroom wasn't so didn't seem so damp. But you didn't try it did you, really? In that caravan a caravan's a caravan, call it what you like but in that caravan that Mark is in there was that little room where the w hot water heater is Mm. and there was a hole er on the floor over there with a grating on it that was you could see through to the ground. Mm. Well if through the winter months when there's no fire in there, no nothing in there the damp is bound to be coming through there. Fog gets in. Course it does. All caravans are like that. But you've got to have those caravan, those vents because the van is so small and you've got gas supplied. It's rules and regulations. If you've got a gas fire in It it means that they haven't been doing their duty in the winter then. If they guarantee to put the mattresses all up in the dry they asked you to do yours or did they say they would do it? They done it. Well how's the damn thing on the bed then? Because they put it back there for these people that was coming in. Oh. They didn't seemingly. We don't know. Do we? No. Well there were no there anyway. So they say. It's all hearsay. Well alright. Perhaps the man was working part-time. Perhaps he never noticed the . Perhaps the people were in the van and found the beds wet and said well we can't sleep here and they slept in the sit with the fire on. I dunno. It could have been. cos there was only two here. cold weather in any case. Eh? It's cold weather in any case. That's right. Shut the lights. You don't know. Mm. So you can't swear to that then. No. That, that they weren't there. You can't, no. And then again alright, the fire was condemned on the sixth. Well those people were only there from Tuesday to Friday. And the sixth was a Friday. So it could have been condemned as they were going. Oh. I don't know. Neither have I. That's why I But er anyway if Danny's, if if Mark is there now he can bring one home today and then he can bring the others tomorrow. Er it's only the two little ones. If there are two little ones there. Yeah. If there are two little ones there. If they're big enough for for Susan's two boys. And and one for Well their girls have gotta sleep in them. Mm. Er it's only one big one and two little ones. Well then you might as well push that little thing in as well mightn't you? Oh yes. And bring them home. But Mark won't be there when you take them back. Well he says he's going to the, he said he was going to the on Friday and they would be finished by Friday. And he was going to see that it was finished by Friday. Mm. Well you could take them back on Friday. Mhm yeah, I could take them back Friday. How am I gonna get them in the van? What van? In, back into the caravan. On me own. Oh. It's a double mattress, a double bedded mattress. I can't bloody lift that. So the only thing that I would suggest is to Well still Mark will be there. Or he could come down with you on Saturday? Or Sally maybe would be able to come down with you Saturday and help you? Unless we went over the same day that Susan went over. And kept the mattresses till Susan goes. But the understanding is that like Mark has got the caravan this week. Mm. But if they had a booking to go into it, Mark's gotta get out. Oh well he could ring you up and you could take them back down but at least they would be dried. Cos if anybody who could they come on if they caught cold and and Well I dunno. You or him? I dunno. It's like fighting a losing battle isn't it? If someone else I wouldn't worry at all. I wouldn't hesitate. It's an embarrassment for people to come in and catch cold and think it's your mattresses that's done it. Mm. If those men were not working on the gas I would go over there now, and I'd switch the fire and I'd leave it on. Mm. Yes. The thing is old Mark is there to see to it. Mark won't be there to see to it? Why? Because how does M Mark know? Mark right, he's got up this morning and he's gone to Tenby. And he's gone to look around Tenby. While he's gone those men have gone in there. That's what I mean. He can't be standing there watching the bloody thing all the time. No. But he could put a note on it. Please leave this fire on. Please do not touch this fire. Well they've got to haven't they? To disconnect the gas. Oh I thought it was water problems. Gas. A gas water heater! Oh. They've gotta disconnect the gas to get the water heater off the wall. And fix it to the Well Mark will be back there tonight and he can switch it on when he comes home. Make it his responsibility. Oh you don't understand! In the meantime the men have took the water heater off the wall. They've put it from that wall, and they've stuck it on to this wall. Oh let's connect it up see if it works. Now in the meantime there's gas seeping through that fire there with no light. Oh. So you've blown your caravan. Well then again, there's Mark and Sally. You could take the mattresses and put them in their caravan in the spare bedroom. Is there a spare bedroom? Well no. Cos Mark's going in one, Sally's going in the other. Oh bring them home then. Bring them home and tell them that you're taking them home to air. And I don't suppose, they're not wet you see. It's different it's, they're damp it's different if there'd been a hole and the water was coming in. They're not saturated. No. It won't take them long. That's what I says. If those men wasn't working there I wouldn't hesitate. The fire would go on and I'd leave it on low Mm. and the atmosphere would warm up right through the caravan. Mm. But I'd hump them into the sitting room. If those men came there on Tuesday Mm. and done their work and Mark rang me here and said, on Tuesday the caravan's great now, the fires are alright. I'd go straight over there and switch the fires on. Mm. Well I'd even tell him to go down only he ain't got the keys. Cos they're not going to take an awful long time in a good hot room to dry. the only thing again that I'm thinking of what if we gets them out of the caravan and we gets them into the car and we're getting them in and out here and then we gets them back into the car to take them back over and in to the caravan, what if we rip the bloody things? Well if we rip them we rip them and I'll mend them. Mm. They are yours aren't they? Mm. Put a patch on them. Then she turned round and she said, I said to her those beds are soaking, I said. There's nobody can sleep in those. Yes, she said but er when I went down there to check after you'd gone, she said erm yours was erm the driest of them sort of thing. Suppose they didn't bother with them. And I said Didn't bother with them. See they're alright. I said then well I said from the time now, I said there is nobody I said, can sleep on those mattresses. No she said, it does take a while for caravans to dry out. Well say what you were saying So in other words you don't go to the caravan. . Let it be their responsibility, they put them in there. Well Mark's going in at his own risk, see? They sold them to you complete. So? So they're yours. What's the good of a bed a bed without a mattress? I'm talking about the mattresses. What are you talking about? The caravan! Well I thought you was talking about mattresses airing in front of the fire. Well that subject's gone! Oh well I'm saying that Park, what the woman said that she went down to check the vans last summer Mm. end of last summer. long time since then . And to see that the salt was there and the mattresses were up and that was great. And she went down to check in the winter time and she said your van was really dry. Oh. Well it all depends how she checked. perhaps. Well then they then they went and put the mattresses back in their places. Now the mattresses are soaking. Mm. And I said there's nobody can go and sleep on those mattresses. And she said well it does take a time for the vans to dry out. Mm. Not until the sun comes hot and heavy on it. So whoever goes there, to anybody's van, that's what they're getting. Oh well, I should take advantage now Mark is in, bring the damn things from there. Then you can get him to help you take them back on Friday. I think we'd have to ring them up and let them know what we're doing. Well go in office and tell them. You can talk personally better than on the phone. Cos they are your mattresses aren't they? When you take them back they're there for their inspection. Unless you you take electric blanket down? Put it on, oh You can't put that on a damp bed can you? Not really. Don't think so. Not Well they are protected. What? Er er electric blankets. Don't know. They're built er pretty, pretty good that way I think. I don't know what about the lags for the wall And another thing, I didn't even look in Mark's room. Was there pillows and blankets and quilts in his caravan? I didn't look. Well perhaps Sally had a hunt Dunno. Oh well Well I dunno I think I'll go and wash me hair. It's desperate for it. I've gotta have a bath in the morning. tomorrow. Is it? Well I'm not bound to, no. What? Have a bath tomorrow. Well you can have one . Good god, you can have one now if you want it. I hope you know I'd er see he'll have to put the back seat of the car down into a van. Shit I'm afraid in case those mattresses rip. Mm? Because they're so thin. Well I'll mend the buggers for you . And don't be afraid of a patch dear. It's not that I'm afraid of a patch. Are caravan sizes the same as everyday sizes? The beds, the big beds are. The small beds aren't. Well you can get erm two foot bunk beds nan. Mm. But they're not spring mattresses. Mm. Although what's on the bed is nice mattresses. Oh what's have you got his dinner? Yes. Oh. Bloody cheek, do him the world of good to go without for a day or two. He won't eat it. Well that's it, he he It's treating him like a kid of five or six year old isn't it? He forgets that he Well the thing is he doesn't have a dinner every day of the week. It won't hurt him. Lots of people don't have one at all. And then he looks forward to the weekends and that. He had dinner yesterday before he went. So that's his weekend dinner. If he was in living in a flat by himself he wouldn't be having one at all. Well I don't imagine, unless he went out for it. Fish and chips at night is it, his dinner? Look at the ruddy traffic. Mm. Oh held up. Oh the lights have come higher up now. Oh. It's Sunday today. There's more transport on the road I expect. The lights have been moved up the road. Oh. I don't like the glass in those windows. Where? Coloured glass isn't it? Yeah. Don't look right somehow. Still, net curtains on them. Eh? When you've net curtains on them. There are four niggers in there. Mm? Four niggers in that . Mm. Oh god. Now I need the key . Mm? Gonna need the key for this. the west end of London. The east end I think. East end then. Oh he's got a nice shirt on. in a pub he was, got drunk and for a twenty pound bet shaved off all his hair. I still owe him the money. But he is stupid cos he went hitchhiking once and left a day early to avoid traffic. Here, do you know what I fancy? I fancy an icecream. She said well I'll go and get you one. He said no, you know what your memory's like, you're bound to forget. She said no I won't, what do you fancy? He said well I fancy vanilla and strawberry icecream with chocolate sauce, raspberry sauce, crushed nuts and a flake. She said right, vanilla and strawberry icecream, chocolate sauce, crushed nuts. said right, I shall be back in five minutes. Two hours later she come back with a ham sandwich. He said you silly cow! You forgot the mustard. East end. This week on handy hints we are talking fishing. I once went for a job as a fisherman. The boss said Connolly you've got the job, you start on Monday. I said that sounds alright, could I have a sub? He said no you're on a fishing boat like everybody else. Well one of the greatest qualities a fisherman can have is of course patience. And you can spend the whole day without a bite. As for me, I always take my packed lunch. And pot noodles is one of my favourite dishes. No. I don't think that the pub is open the cafs aren't open the amusements aren't open. The bar's open. No. All locked up and in darkness. ? We went there, had a look. Perhaps they'll open at night time. Dunno. When he asked me when they opened. I don't know I said. And what time do they shut? And I said I don't know but I said I shouldn't think it would be too late. I dunno. And er Did he eat the dinner? Well I dunno. I left it there and then went down the caravan. When we come back he'd got the dishes all ready for me. So you don't know if he ate it or not? No the dishes . Mm? She gave me a key. Mm. She told me here's your keys now she said because you've lost a set. You didn't tell her any different did you? Well why didn't you tell me ? I did tell you! I told you yesterday. You told me they'd got a set of keys. What's happened? So she give me a set of keys. And? And erm I give them to Mark. Aye. And I told him I want them back, don't take them to the office. So what did they say about you keeping them on?? I went in there again and I told her that you'd rung and some Angela from sales Andrea, we haven't got an Andrea she said. So she said somebody else it could have been. I said I don't know I said. Angela No. I don't know. But erm she said she has said that we could do this and she said that's fine, she said. As long as you don't as long as you don't put erm anything too near it. Mm. And I said Mark's here so that he can switch it switch it off at nights. So anyway while I was there Darren came in. Is everything alright? He said. Are all the jobs done? And I said well look I said, I've got to come because I said there's no way anybody I said I wouldn't do it myself, I wouldn't put anybody in those beds. I said something's got to be done and it won't wait. And I said I'm going to leave the fire on and er Mark's here and he'll switch it off at night. That's alright she said. Let's see she said,th when's the first when's your first booking? Not until, I think she said April twenty first. Yeah that comes under the bookings. That's our first booking, paid booking. Nothing about these ones that's already been in. We're there Susan is there she said the twenty first and I on the twenty first. But she wouldn't be on their books like that would it? Well she'd be on a form, yes. That's the twenty first of March. Yes. Well perhaps she was talking about Sue then. I don't know. I didn't really stop to find out. And er she said that'll be alright. And Mark's there, I said he'll switch it off at night. Fine she said, as long as there's nothing left too near the fire. So I took the envelope off those tickets and I tore that up and wrote down and I stuck it in the water heater that the sitting room fire may be on, please check. I put another one then on the draining board. Cos if they're going to fix it round the sink, he doesn't know where they're gonna put it. You know, while I was there Darren came in. And he said er have all the jobs been done yet? And I said well no I said there's some water I said. Mark's on holiday this week I said. they've put him in another. Oh that's right he said. I heard something about this he said, er I was on holidays all last week he said but erm it's bloody lies cos I saw him last week. And he said erm yeah he said cos we've gotta pay this he said because it's all in the guarantee. In the warranty. And he came in and I said and the mirror on the dressing table isn't done. You know and that's gone and I said feel these beds I said. They're soaking wet. And he felt them and he said they are a bit he said. So I said well I Danny rang this morning and he got permission to put the fire on and put them, I'm going to move them all into the front and erm to air them up. And I said there's no way anybody can sleep in there. That's alright he said. And he checked and then he went So I took the bags off the pillows in case they were sweating in the bags and I put them out on the seats. I put the quilts all out on the seats. And . Because there's eight there's er seven, there's eight pillows then and He's done nothing. Yeah. He Mm? The girl in the coun the girl behind the counter, the little tiny one. Small and She's still there? tiny. Yes. She said how's Danny then? And I said oh he's at home I said this week I said and that oh and she said well tell him to get over here and we'll sort him out. I said eh I said when Danny comes in he'll sort you out. And she laughed about it. Darren said you know the girls in the were saying that you weren't well, how was you and one of these days. I don't know what this is all for. Well they th th the kids were there but And he said will you be there? And I said well I don't know. You should have said yes, we're gonna try to. That's why I got the tickets. It depends now how er mm I don't know. tea? he enjoyed it for forty years. two thousand five hundred pounds. Oh. He made a mistake. You know, if there's nothing like the last week then Did you have your tea Danny? I had one piece of butter and jam. I can't take them tablets till I've eaten something. Oh. No empty stomachs. No. So Terrible. that was at four o'clock, I had to take a tablet. Mm. Well Mark is quite contented where he is. Sally said the caravan he's in is a lot better than mine. Ooh it's out of this world. I mean you can't compare it can you? And the bedrooms! You can't compare it, it's the rolls royce of caravans. That's, that Darren said oh aye, he's the one, he's in the maroon one he said. He's in the rolls royce. Top of the range he said. Beautiful thing. Good god there's a mirror in the sitting room as big as that wall. You'll see it when you go over there. Beautiful thing. Yes, And I said I've bought a box of matches for him to go down and light this fire thinking you know he might need two or three matches at a time. But er well I gave him a box of matches to go with him and I thought oh well he'll have plenty of matches then. And I took them in, he says what do you buy them for? He said. I've got loads of matches. In this caravan everything's electronic. Fridge, light switches ooh beautiful thing it is. Ten times the price of ours I expect. A caravan is a caravan after all, isn't it? But for what we want it for ours is good enough. Good enough. That's what I'm saying perhaps they must let it out though. If we were having Why's Malcolm got it? if we were having a caravan like that, I'd be too frightened to let it. I wouldn't. I wouldn't Well there we are. let it. There we are. I couldn't afford to pay for it then could I? No. He's right up by the wishing wheel well or whatever it is. You know this reproduction furniture? And the little lead windows? That's got it all inside it. And the shower hasn't got a curtain it's got a big black door. is it? No. the shower is. Quite a few people there today. Whether it was the fine weather bringing them out or yesterday. Lot of owners where down checking it see. Eh? Lot of owners were down checking them. Mm. They were . You could see the mattresses all under the sheet. And they were cleaning the windows and washing the box I would do that next year. Mm? Mm. I'd do that next year. We never saw that old girl trudging round today. The life of a caravan isn't long is it? Not we've got. When we bought it he told me I'd have at least ten years because the make of it is it's a good make. And the make has got a lot to do with it. Oh. And what is the make of it? Doesn't know why you let it like you do. You'll get kids in it running and jumping and wrestling about. And this woman said that she stated no animals. But she said they tell you that and she said they tell you, it's on computer she said, but animals do go in the vans. Well I can tell you one thing, animals will not go into ours. And I tell you she's got a different contract with me altogether. You read our contract didn't you, last night? It's there in black and white. Mm I know, that's what she said. I don't how she knows. If I, if if I found out there was animals in our caravan, I'd take them to town. But how do you know if you're not there every second? You you for one, like her, when you went to the caravan, you'd smell it like that. Oh I . But you'd smell it wouldn't you? Mm. And they know this. Cos there are dogs there, great big ones. Yeah. Mm big white ones. That that man yesterday, he paid six thousand pound for his caravan. He s he said that on the tape. Mhm. I listened to the tape with her last night. He paid six thousand pound. We paid fourteen thousand seven hundred for ours. Mm. He hasn't got, ours is a gold golden olympic. He's not having the rent we're having. No. He's got a . He hasn't got a brand new caravan. But he nearly gave six thousand pound for it. That's what they said though. Yeah I know. I know they said it. I heard them. But a new caravan starts from eleven thousand eight hundred. That's the price of a new one. I know they're as good as a house almost. Well he said on that tape, I gave them a fat cheque of six thousand pounds. Mm. Well that isn't bloody half of what we paid. Yeah I'm paying for mine monthly, but I won't disturb fourteen thousand seven hundred. Perhaps perhaps he's got a an agreement. Like perhaps he bought the ground and the caravan, and then they had an agreement that er Stone Park would er b you know let it, be responsible for when they let it or something. Yeah. See there's different contracts altogether there. Mm. I mean he she was going on that tape about she had to replace some things. Mm. She had well I've got nothing like that. No. If something is gone they replace it. That's part of the contract. Well everything had gone on the one. Well Dishes and furniture and Pillows. everything was ripped out or destroyed. Pillows. Well She had to pay for eight pillows. Mm. We've had no bills like that. We were asked if we wanted to do the chassis. And she was so toffee-nosed as if they said the curtains. Oh yes I'll have them c gotta have them done. And and probably said they'd maintain the thing for her at a price. Well at a price yeah. I mean they don't do nothing for nothing. No of course not. They're out to get money, aren't they? It's their living. But when we had these things through for the chassis and the cleaning of the caravan, it was all optional. If I, if you wanted to go down there and scrub the van out, you go and scrub it out. You go and do it. And it saves And I will next year. it saves thirty five pounds. Mm. But for that thirty five pounds the carpets are shampooed, the seats are shampooed, the lot. Were they in today? What? The men? Darren was there. Oh he was the only one. Yeah. Cos there was two He come to see two workmen went by. Yeah, further down. I even went, I was dying to go to the toilet so I thought oh I'll go down to the big er and I had no toilet paper so I'll go down to the big toilets and shower rooms. They're all locked. Everything's locked up there. Everything's locked there. There's toilet paper in the caravan. No. Not even the holder it was on. Gone. Well when Roger and Mark was there, there was a toilet roll there. Mm. Yeah well er Mark took a couple with him but course they're in the caravan with him. No. No. He took them from here. When they went down to do the chassis Yeah, they took one there was a toi in case they needed the toilet. there was a toilet roll in there then. Well it's gone. And the cardboard roll off it. Mm. I wonder who's got that grocery store? Oh when I was over there last It goes out to tender I expect. when I was over there last they were, there was four trucks r loading that supermarket up. Mm. Long lease I expect. Four lorry loads of stuff there. Yes, it's could be like Thomas shop. He has it for so long. Oh I don't know. Mm. Three or four years perhaps at a time. Mm. And then you've gotta go. You've gotta put in tenders for it then. Cos they must make a bomb though. Unless Stone Park has got it. Cos a lot of stuff isn't in. They could be put a manager in and the benefits. I suppose they would. Mm. Perhaps they do. And then there's staff there to run it. I dunno. Well the man with the bike, that's his business. And the ma and the people then with clothes last year, who were they now? To the shop? Was M was Mark's caravan warm? Well he didn't have a fire on, nothing. He was just lying there watching telly and reading the paper and Did he have a paper? Mm. Should have brought it back, did you? No. He bought the Saturday one that's got the week part in it. Why didn't he come over and fetch the car then? Because he said there's no point, I don't want it. Well I've got to take his over now, he'll have to bring me back. Yeah. What I was going to tell him, if he was to come over, take my car there when I'd have taken this car over, I would have had a car to come back. Well that's what he said. He said you'd better keep the car there in case his won't be ready or something. Mm. Lot of kids about though. In another couple of weeks spring then. Would if the weather would take up. But still they book regardless of weather don't they? Mm. Mm. That's the night for my birthday. All the machines and everything are switched off in there. Yeah but you see on the, oh I don't know what date it is sixteenth tomorrow on the eighteenth erm eighteenth, nineteenth, twentieth they have Freddie and the Dreamers there. Well that's Wednesday. Yeah. So they must be open at nights to practise. Mark is there. Mark Mark is going to it. That George Roper's there the week after. Will Sally be able to go with him? Course she will. She's got a member's ticket. She's a bloody erm member's ticket just like Mark has got. Don't cost her anything. But on that one, there's no children allowed in there. It's adult only. And there's a buffet with it. A free buffet. Well now, do they run a show and that racket's going on in the entertainment club at the same time? Oh you can't hear it. The show is up in the other rooms. Huge big rooms up there. In the room. It holds sixteen hundred and fifty people. We didn't go up there. Mm. Well it must be one heck of a me er noises. You can't hear a thing in there. Mm. No. We And there's a big dance hall there. We didn't go into them because they were all closed up. Do you remember that George and Mildred used to be on telly in comedy? Oh yes. Oh I remember Mildred. Well George Yeah well George's the drippy one. She, she she's dead now er Mm. Mm. Mildred. Well George Roper is there on the twenty eighth of March. Oh is that his name? Yeah. George Roper. Mm. George and Mildred. She was funny. She was good. He's there on the twenty eighth of March. Well what does he do then? He's a comedian. Well you know, bit of acting, comedian. Featuring stars cabaret George Roper and a full supporting programme. I think that'll be very old. Well he's fifties. Gonna say I don't think he could go on his own, go down on his own Well . I mean they've got the comedians there er next week for four nights. The ones that are on television. A string of comedians saying jokes one after the other. Though this year Well I I never thought much of George Roper. I I he was nothing without Mildred. Mm. Well he like Harry Worth weren't he? It's er the way he says things. He could make you laugh by looking at him. I mean he is a comedian. I thought she was the bottom of it all. It was she that kept the thing going. Well no cos the show was based on that er Spencer, what was his name? Frank Spencer? Frank Spencer and Betty thing. This show was based on the same thing. He was a s she was the one that's alright and he was the stupid one. Like Frank Spencer used to do stupid things. Now that George used to have a bloody motorbike and a sidecar. The sidecar would go that way, motorbike would go that way. You know, stupid things. Long time ago Danny. I don't remember much about these things. I I remember that show. Never used to miss them. Reg On the Buses was like that as well. Oh no I didn't like that. His sister and her husband, forget her name. Arthur was the husband. Mm. Oh there we are. Oh dear. Ring Sally now then, cos she wants to put in the bath with her. Well does she go in in the morning? No I dunno Sally works on a Monday. Oh. Oh aye yeah. So I dunno. Eight o'clock I think she said last night. Finishing at eight? She's going in about eight. Oh. Oh I don't know. She'll tell you. That's alright then. But I really should have looked at me plants. Mm? I should have looked at me plants today. Anyway our Darren came in,and I'm gonna forget Darren came to the caravan and I was telling him about these wet sheets and beds and the mirrors done and what I was doing there and Oh he said and about the mattress he said and I said to him mattress, it's still the same mattress. Yes he said, I've gotta wait he said. I'll be putting a new mattress in er I'll be putting another mattress in. And he said I've got to put after dark . What do you mean after dark? I said. He turned round well I've got to move about discreetly he said. And I said erm you talking about then? And he said oh I've been taking it out of one of our own caravans, our own caravans he said. new one. Oh there we are though he said, I don't want . He said to me have you got it on tape? I said no, no I haven't. No. And that's when he said he said I'll be going up one night when it's dark he said. I'll take it out of one of our vans. So I said what do you want me to do then, leave this mattress on the bed? And you'll be taking it? And I said or shall I it might not be done then I said so I'll have to air them. Oh yeah he said . That's what I'll be doing . Yeah. The microwave because the microchef Mark I forgot to ask you what was in the caravans, the sleeping arrangement. Is there sleeping bags there? Is there quilts or what do you know? So I said to her take Kirsty's sleeping bag. Take your s and I said have you got a sleeping bag? No. I said well I gave Mark a sleeping bag and er two blankets and a couple of pillowcases. There must be pillows, I'm sure of it. And erm I said take Kirsty's sleeping bag and call in here for a sleeping bag and I'll give you a couple of blankets to go with it. And I said I'll . So she said yes. She wants to know do you want buy her . For a hundred and fifty pound. Why is she selling it? No because er well she said Well I told her today, I said look Mark said there's no money. Or I said the money you don't spend . I said when you come home trousers, what you want. What did she say? she said small ones. Doesn't matter if they're long in the leg. He'll have to try the trousers on . He'll have to try the shoes on. But he said on Wednesday and you'll pay in the money into the bank Hannah was on. Oh god yes! Missed that and er oh I forget where she went to. Er Venezuela was it ? No. Erm where the leaning tower of Pisa Pisa. Nice, that's very nice She don't go near a shop. She don't spend no money now much. Oh yes she does. Oh yes she does. I see, she went in the shop and she bought the bloody shop. Did she? A jewellers shop. And she bought a, a cameo brooch with a little ring on top that she could put a chain in as well. You know, you can put the chain on it and Yeah. pin it on the brooch. And she gave two thousand lira for it. much. It was an awful lot cost two thousand lira . She's going to next week she's going to the pope. Going to Italy and a visit to the pope. Rome. Er Italy he said. But I thought er Pisa was in Italy. Ooh. Clare Rayner. God I do hate her. Look, she's getting bigger. Mm? She's getting bigger as years she talking about? Still born babies. What is all this? I don't know. What have you got? The news and, oh yes it's only a few minutes lovey. Quarter past, no wait, quarter to six. It's quarter to seven. Has your clock stopped? Quarter to seven. So we've missed Highway? We've missed the bloody lot. Well Hannah's only just been on a second ago. And then the news. Mm? Quarter to seven. Let's have a look what you've got. Six forty five is quarter to seven isn't it? Mhm. So it'll come on after this. Mm. It's a documentary thing. Yes, I suppose so. Ends, oh look Oh stupid old Mm. Ooh. Oh yes. Where's ? No I don't know. I dunno. has had to tear up its election coverage plans because tory ministers are scared to meet top industrialists . Mm. Top industrialists, those are big business boys. Chancellor Norman Lamont and treasury ministers were told er chancellor Norman Lamont and treasury ministers were to be grilled like labour spokesmen by a panel of businessmen and just one union leader . But there was to be Norman Lamont and a tr and treasury ministers, three or four of them. And there was to be the big industrialists, three or four of them. Same as labour was done the other day. But the tories but the tories have scrapped agreed plans claiming the panel is not politically balanced. The B B C two programme is regularly pr presented by Peter Jay who's Panorama Special on the slump was controversially axed last week . They're not willing to stand up see erm er what's it, Richard Dimbleby was it Richard or the other one? Was Jonathon. Richard's dead. No the boy, the other boy. Jonathon, Dick No. What's his name? The other boy. There's two boys alive. David? Mm. I don't know one from the other by name. But the one was at him yesterday and he, well he didn't know what to say next. He did quiz him. That's David. Is it? On a Sunday. Well And, and er Lamont even said that er unemployment would get higher. He even said so yesterday Can't get no bloody higher can it? Oh it could. Twenty two percent VAT if the tories get back. Mm. Jobless er tory jobless figures were exposed yesterday as a fraud. The official unemployment total of two two million six hundred and four thousand one hundred is more than a million short of the real figure because the tories have found thirty ways not to count jobless people . That right? They say unless you've been unemployed six months you're not unemployed. You're looking for a job. They don't call it unemployed. Well you can't go on the list for six weeks anyway. Six months. six weeks, yeah. Well if you haven't been working for six months you are looking for a job, you are not unemployed. They don't call that unemployment. Course this is all voting propaganda again. I mean when is it it's a disgrace to the social service workers isn't it? To make them wear uniform. They're getting them like prison officers and policeman and Well it's the same as anywhere else. If you work in Marks and Spencers you wear er their uniform. If you work in the hospital you wear their uniform. Yeah. That's only to advertise the place though isn't it? Marks and Spencers and It isn't. If you went into your Clarke's shoe shop they've all got the same clothes. It's it makes it so easy that the staff, one can't dress any better than the other. They're all equal. When you go to places like in the big stores the staff have all got the same type of apron er overall. And that's for the customer, if it needs help they know who is who to go for advice. Yeah. That's all it is. But when you've got people stood behind a desk and serving you and doing nothing but serving you as you come. They'll be wanting bank clerks to have uniforms next. Good god bank clerks have been wearing uniforms for these last three four five years. Oh I've never seen them. Well Never seen that. Well they all have. It's customary to go to work dressed in black or white or suits or Not at all. It's navy blue with flowered blouse they've got. I've never seen it. Each bank's different. Well they've had them for years. Well in the Midland Bank and they were wearing them the last time you were there. The electric board wears them. The gas board wears them. Woolworths wear them. Mm. And so really it is no different, just that they are making a song about it. But there's no need to go to that prices. a name on. You can have the firm's name and give them a brooch or something. Well they've got them anyway, haven't they? But Val was on about it last summer. They was talking about it then. But she said that they had been so many months or when everybody else had a pay rise they only had a little bit. And the extra that they should have had is going to pay for these uniforms. Oh. didn't want the uniforms. Well a percentage is taken out of your money for them. There's no doubt about that. Mm. Well that's what she was on about that, and and they was they were going Well everybody has got to do that. to go on strike because of it. And really, it would be a good thing for Val. Why? Well she's gotta pay so much for her bloody clothes. She makes her own, a lot of them. She's still gotta buy the material. Well she would rather have her own than be dressed up like looking like rolled doll she said. Cos they were all on about it. They were talking about going on strike over it, about it anyway. Is it going to rain? Mm. Could have the odd little shower. No er tonight it's supposed to rain. David the chief economist of Nat West Bank expects output to rise by only point six percent this year. A much lower rate than predicted by chancellor Norman Lamont on last week's budget. Mr also believes interest and mortgage rates will remain high . So if people reads this paper which is the, which of the papers are read the most? Which is the most popular paper? The Mirror and The Sun. And Today I think isn't it? Well The Sun is conservative. What's Today? Conservative. I don't know. Well The Sun used to be a labour paper. Well didn't that er Rupert Murdoch take it over? I don't know. Rupert Murdoch? And he's a conservative? He's an Australian isn't he? Mm. Whatever I can't remember. But I knew it before it was The Sun you see. No, what do you call it? Yes, The Sun. It was the Daily Herald wasn't it? When it came out first. Ooh. Senator Ted Kennedy revealed yesterday that he is to wed lawyer Victoria who's father is to stand trial over an alleged fraud. Kennedy sixty started dating the thirty eight year old divorced mother of two last June. I love her and her children very much he said. Victoria's father retired oh he's father's Victoria's father, retired judge Edmund denies fraud . The Kennedy's are in trouble every corner aren't they? It's nothing to do with him. No, but er I mean he's even marrying into trouble. The whole of his family. His father and all. Remand prisoners at a top security jail used a thin mobile phone to make threatening calls to court witnesses it was revealed yesterday. An astonished guard alerted Durham Jail chiefs when he heard a phone ringing in a cell. A search revealed the battery operated handset hidden under a mattress. Calls made from it were traced by police to the homes of witnesses due to give evidence in trials on Tyneside. At least one case is understood to be involved in a murder charge. A top level enquiry is underway into the racket. Dubbed by prison wives the cellnet scandal after the cabinet mobile phones system. Visitors are thoroughly searched before they are allowed in to the jail which houses two hundred remand prisoners, killers, I R A terrorists and rapists, and the investigation will examine whether a prison officer may have brought in the phone. One senior officer said it would be extremely difficult to smuggle one in, security is so tight here on visits . Oh well, there's always a lapse isn't there? What time does this budget start today I wonder? Not that we've What budget? heard it all before. What budget? This er, the labour giving their oh dear Is Barnado's advertising? Back again. Oh there. Make a credit card donation. Or for more information about our work ring . Right let's go and empty the washing machine. Put another load in. It's not drying . No I don't Although the wind is rising apparently. Mm. It's Des O'Connor tonight. Oh god. So that's something to look forward to. They were in a meeting. Yeah. All of them, all of them Yeah. except for one The little one? Aye. Yeah. Oh I said I wanna . I said I've got a tape here. I said I'm sure he'll want to listen to this? And she said what do you mean? I thought you were gonna go and tell him that he'd better see me today. I, I've got a tape here and I'm sure he's gonna be interested in this. Or I'm taking my caravan off here right now. Oh yes. Get a forklift and put it in the bloody garden see. So she said well you can't do that. I said I bloody can do that. That is my caravan, not yours. I said I can do it. And I will do it if that man's not gonna see me. So with that call it coincidence, call it what you like but one of these low-loaders come in to pick up a caravan or something like. And I said there you are, he's there waiting to pick my caravan up. He was empty you see. I don't know who he was. And she said wait here Mr and in she goes in to this bloody meeting and out he came. And he said I'm sorry Mr but you haven't got an appointment. I said do you want me to have an appointment, do you want to listen to this tape? Or do you want me to take my caravan off here? He said why? I said because I feel I'm being . I said I'm not getting a fair square deal here. I said and not only I think that, other people on the site think so. He asked me if I could wait five minutes. when I'm in there. And Darren was on a day off and he's been . And Darren come in spoke to me and he says oh I Danny. I said no you bloody won't. You'll get in that office with me. I said I want him in there. He sold me the caravan. And I went in there. I says now have you had any visitors from a couple of nights in my caravan. No he said. I said I think somebody's saying some untruth to me. I said because I've got a tape here and there's a couple who'll go to court if necessary. And I said is my caravan being cleaned weekly as people go out if they've got it for a fortnight fortnightly. Yes he said. I said well you play that I said cos I've played it back. And out he goes and gets this woman and in she comes with a chart with a woman's name the job number, that done it week by week or fortnight, whatever it does. And that is all there and signed that she done the caravan. It's her signature. Her signature. That the caravan is cleaned. It's got to be he says. He said because people leave their dirty things and beds and all this kind of thing. He said we cannot allow that. Well you can understand that. Yes, well he knows from experience. Yes. He said we can't allow people . He said if something like this got out, he said, we'd be out of business. He said and do you know that we're a multi- million pound organization. Of course, of course . Mm? He said we're not . So I said well a couple approached my wife here on on Saturday. I said and they're very happy and ninety nine percent of the people on this site are happy. Solid like. And I said I you tell me if I'm happy. Cos you've gotta convince me now, this morning, or my caravan's going off here. I said and before you start that the caravan can't go for four years,on this tape. Did he listen to it? Oh yes. Bring that here. chicken or is it It's chicken. I don't want no chicken, I just want the chips. Do you want some lamb then? No I just want some chips. If you'd rather have the lamb I'll have chicken. No no. I just want some chips. Do you want tea? I'll have coffee please. Anyway he wants to ask when this tape goes back, if he can have a copy of it. He rung his managing director up there in front of me. Mm? At Hemel Hempstead. Hemel Hempstead? Yeah. And he said he'd got a very Pizza? Yeah, please. serious complaint that he'd just got. That I'm in the office with him. And er he to the managing director that I was in the office with a very serious complaint. And making accusations. And you were making accusations? Yeah. I was. Yeah. And he wanted to know what steps he could take. Well Danny wanted to know if it was true. So they asked they wanted to know how, how we got the tape. So I showed him that letter you had. Mm. And he asked me to a ask you to when they ra give the tape back if they could possibly supply a copy of it, of that tape to them. In the meantime he's gotta write to these people. They know the people. Mm? To instruct them that their caravan must be taken off within twenty eight working days. They know the people who were talking? Yeah. I said they would. Mm? And the caravan must be taken off within twenty eight working days. Well I think it was taken off this morning. No, it's still there. Cos I saw that er bloke in er park landrover. Oh you saw him that day didn't you? Well they're moving and hunting caravans all the time Mark. They're on the roadways Yeah well he he said he said No I'm talking about I saw, actually saw that guy who's in our caravan Oh yeah? in a landrover with a park bloke. And all of a sudden three big juggernauts came into the camp and one of them was on the back of a truck. They they they Well er er sh they took three off the site. Did She said she couldn't take it off. No, he Maybe it wasn't him then. I just thought it looked like him. He told me it was still there and that he'd been told he's got to write to them today and they've got to get it taken off within twenty eight days. Yeah. Cos she was trying to find a, a reason or an excuse to sue them for it. She stated that. Mm. It's all on the thing. Mm. And he said how can they do that? Is it in the law? They don't break the law. They can't afford to break the law. No well But you can understand that. The thing is Danny is that they said they'd only bought the thing in July. Well the, the, the camp is closed Yes. in, in In October, end of October. so that was only er July to September Don't give them time for the to October. Yeah well what they bought Hardly two months. was an eight year old caravan they bought Oh brand new. No. Eight year old. Six thousand pound Brand new she told us. But it isn't, it's eight year old. Brand new she told us. That's why Emphatically. she had to supply the blankets and dishes and everything else. Oh! Coming round now aren't we? That's what she told us, brand new. She's looking for batter. Does it say that on your brand new? Said it didn't it. No, he just said he paid six thousand pound on the tape, for the caravan. Which was true. Yeah. Well does it say on the tape that it was brand new? No. Because they repeated that several times. No, what she said was that we spent er no he said I gave a fat cheque for the caravan. And then he said six thousand pounds. And he said of course the site fees are in that. First part of the year actually. Yes. Yes well even so, if they bought it say the middle of July, there's July to September to October. Er they weren't in it three months. They didn't have it until the camp closed. Three months. They wouldn't have had it long enough to clear their own ground rent. Expenses like Well apart from the cleaning and all that and getting a bit of profit. Well we bought ours in August and we had enough to clear the profit. Yes but it was already bookings from the year before weren't it? Mm. It wasn't ours. Plus the fact their bookings wouldn't be as much as yours if it's an eight year old caravan. Mm. No. But you'd have thought by her that it was immaculate. It was a luxury thing, yeah. No. It was eight year old. Wonderful how you isn't it ? Yeah. This man this Mr wants to meet you, to apologize to you Oh. whatever. For the discomfort, the upset that you went through with having to listen to her. While I was there Mr was the other side of the counter. But we enjoyed ourselves didn't we? We enjoyed it. And he just dived into the bloody office. When you were in the caravan. No. this people. With the fire? With the people. With these people. This man and woman. Yeah? He wasn't there then was he? No. Go on. No. Well that's what he wanted to apologize to you for. Yeah. Whereas it isn't his place to apologize is it? No but he feels that Guilty. that you've been er Put upon. Yes. as he said stamped on, he said. Mm. Well it were unwarranted. But it was a bit of a surprise, strangers coming to the door. Well I couldn't believe it. I wondered what the hell she wanted. So he see he said she did come here. I have spoken to her twice. And explained everything to her. And if she wanted to go in a silver olympic then I needed to explain to her that she must buy a silver olympic caravan to have the guaranteed bookings. Mm. Mm. Oh they hadn't got No. that was the difference then, they hadn't got She'd got a square one in the middle like. Sh they hadn't got er guaranteed bookings? It doesn't come under the same scheme. Have you stirred this? Oh maybe not. That's a new one. Oh mother! Go on I'm busy. It would have been me pencil if I'd had a pencil in me hand. Sure they do the work anyway. Was he annoyed cos I'd taped it? No. He was annoyed at the bloody woman letting me have . Buy by god he made that woman come in there. Cos everybody in Park is responsible for For their own. for a section. Yeah. Like Darren is responsible for sales. Mm. And that other one is responsible for the paperwork. And that bloke is responsible for seeing that everything is put in place. Mm. And this woman is responsible for all the cleaning staff. And you know that is one hundred and eighty people on the s cleaning staff in the season. I dare say. One hundred and eighty people. Mm. a couple of thousand more people there isn't there. Mm. To clean for. And he said he said they've got eight hundred caravan parks throughout the country. Mm. And this is the smallest,park. Mm. And he said I've been with them twenty nine years. He said I started off with them when I left school. And he's been there twenty nine years. Was it a surprise to him Danny? Yeah well he said he hasn't heard nothing like it before. And he said he, they even mention my name, he said. Yeah. That is the only name on the tape. Cos she didn't tell us her name. She didn't ask us our name. Yeah yeah the kids can ring him tonight Ring you? Ah? Ring you caravan Oh well, he'll, he'll have to wait until the car to get a car You win the caravan? mm What date? Saturday This Saturday coming? Yeah eh I don't think I could remember cos I've got physiotherapy tomorrow at the hospital mm mm mm right So when you having the car back do you think? Friday but they're not making a promise, but they said that last week Yeah and have it back Saturday and then they ring up two hours later saying it's another week and a half again Yeah rang this morning Yeah and he said he was yeah yeah yeah yeah mm right, right mm Well it, and it feels nice and clean no, it feels clean don't matter, it just feels clean, I've had it short and shaped, have a good shape on it and do you know the next time you have it cut I don't know you want looking at, now the next time you go, go to the Darrow in Milford yeah because you're in problems and they know you need it because he'll give you a good shape on it and then you have it shaped once a month or once every three weeks or once a fortnight and keep it looking nice that way and it's four pounds, four ninety nine, four ninety, four seventy five yeah but just keep it nice and shaped and it won't look any different, there ain't nothing wrong with it mm mm mm no no right, right, right tra la And when she came, when her mother came then she was blonde weren't she? A real old blonde I've only seen her once the car do we? Yeah, that's one Blonde Ain't got a blonde hair in her bloody head, no it's all grey Perhaps she'd like then, like a vitamin A What is vitamin A? No it's not have they put her on a diet? Yeah They've given her something and she, she had to put this stuff on her hair, had to take a trip to the hairdresser and he said to the hairdresser comb my hair first and then put this stuff on and wait for a fortnight and it did come a little lighter, but it wasn't much well there you are she's been going to oh don't tell me that What? she is always going to the hairdresser and having her hair frizzed oh, oh god No she doesn't oh no she does not oh, she might peculiar hairdresser she's got her hair cut and she put her heated thing on the bottom of it, rollers Well that's just the thing you do with it Oh god no it's not that's nothing , burn your hair like that that doesn't touch the roots, You never You never put the colour in her hair, nothing Oh she doesn't have to put colour in, she's had a go at it, I've seen her doing it herself What? er hot tongs and all that proper caper They're not heated , it's a heated roller yeah well it hasn't it's not always been a heated roller Yes it has Thank god when you was up in Liverpool up there somewhere, and she was working in that factory, she was at it every day, I was The doctor had been he's seen her and he told her it's a hormone deficiency, nothing to what she done to her hair All she's supposed to do now is wait till it grow again If it grows, or she can lose the lot I'll have to have a wig Eh? Well she'll have to have a wig She said no, she said, he told her if she wanted to go to the expense of a wig, she could get a wig and she wear it when she went out, but when she comes in the house she must take it off, she must not wear that wig only It would so I said as soon as you get your hair cut and shaved, then you're better off without your wig, leave it well alone, she said that's what I'm gonna do, that's what she's gonna do Leave it alone she does wanna get a wig and cover it doctor said she could if she wanted to Yeah only wear it to go out and that, and there's a possibility then, that her hair will grow again said it looked alright, but to me she said it's terrible because it's so short, I've never had it this short in my life but he said it looked OK Mm she was going to fairly soon after the accident West Hill development, two to three bedroom bungalow for her Oh god it's good innit? perhaps he wanted to get in with her West Hill development And all that houses here are waiting to be sold and nobody seems to want, poor old house is getting for waiting Oh ours is the poshest They don't, once they're empty they don't take long till they sell it over there and there Its everywhere isn't it? how are I would think the D H S S take over a bit but then they haven't got money all the time to find go without, but at least they're having the money back aren't they? Yes, and not paying out for it all the time put them into upstairs and downstairs flats mm you'd as quick as possible Right, pushing you in? That board comes in pushing you in, there you are everything always What, I don't but er it isn't often you see often you see, there isn't a lot of long red books about well here's a good big one No innit? Mm Oh Mark said he saw those people going from there this morning. No he said he saw, said he saw them there again this morning Oh but he said that in a Landrover and he thought had a van, but the spare room I told Danny that he's got to get off in a he couldn't, it might not have been him cos I didn't think no and we didn't see where they were, oh well Yeah we'll do it on the way back Oh, sure of the time. I hope they can do it. Oh you went to doctors will you Yeah , well look at the time and I said got in here Oh god, oh god, oh that bloody dog last night I could've wrung his neck, mm I could've, he just didn't damn well stop Eh? Oh he's Oh dear Nothing at all is there one that does er painting? Yeah no Easter I don't know what painting's out, look at all these but er, it's, it's a nice position I know, there's steps all the way up the front Yeah go in if you, if you you know if you're young it's, it's good, it's a nice I think that, every one of these in the area must be coming down now you mind, my god, I didn't he needs me a new home oh dear I could rest Another shop opened here where the chip shop was ooh it is a chip shop Ah? Where are you going? Well I will go Eh? will go home, I want take me coat off before I Why? Because it will be one thing less to do Why do you no wind, no nothing to disturb the atmosphere Cold innit? No it's not oh What? Why? Perhaps he don't know when he'll be coming None of these are parking in you know when you pick the kids up from school Getting the kids now? Mm mm, mm Did they have in the road this wide, when they could've had a waste like that, it's a pure waste now Yeah, and made the road up a bit wider all the way, room for passing The house going up next to the launderette Yeah or is it extending onto the pub? Funny innit? Stupid idea The height, with your bloody shoes on, cos I was gonna say I'm five foot and a half inch and I'm taller than you Yeah and then I said oh look at the bloody heels you've got on oh my god can't get in there and er you won't have time to make a row Eh? There won't be time to make a row who, oh, what a minute, erm I'm doing it The last one need a stand? and I think this one's gone yeah Erm twenty four And she's got a bag whether she's been shopping or, I you know she's got stamps with her an'all Ooh,excuse me Me feet there's that man going down there, now, see, thank god he's deaf Look at the camellias that's come out Ooh lovely It's gonna be a mass of bloom innit? Yeah And I've seen them for years and years, twenty odd more than that years, beautiful, Oh, erm when you was in the front office er, Mr and Mrs Yeah he's got two dogs with them he's got another one I, you say they've got three dogs Yeah well they still have three dogs Well let's see he's got that old brown one, you know Mm and that's er can, a little black er, oh scotty looking thing Mm you know like that is only a black one Mm he's gonna go Can you imagine the bloody things on in house And they're only little tiny rooms Yeah and, and now she's got a grey whippet thing Yeah It makes you wonder where the hell he can put them. I wonder why he keeps them? Er, I don't know what his job is, is he a manager or is he unemployed at the moment? Er I was thinking they kept dogs in room He's the manager of Milford office Yeah, but er there's no money kept in or anything like that No but little, people couldn't break in for erm Are you coming in well there's no need keep that in case you got to pay for it, it er, you won't do it now this moment Erm, forty or fifty seven in bulk and erm beech, copper beech mm, so you'll be more than welcome to come over, you will be Father we will speak as the symbols of and the Where, where, where down by the It's right in the centre of the village Danny, it's the and erm Let's have a look I mean in the meantime I'll be and I've got er No we don't do anything like that, but you might be able to get that oh from the National st , erm the National I get twenty pence coming from them you see er A new one in, where the but yeah it should go well no, it's another one it should go well in the precinct, yeah, where, they've got wedding dresses in the windows outside and it was we could have erm and you go up in there, there on the right hand Ah, right Erm, what is there but that what is that still in the loft? But yeah No, it isn't, it's the gremlins in the corner over there, it's alright OK thanks very much Thank you very much indeed Thanks Mm No, I he say I tell you where I get that he said, because There's one going I know they put flowers all twisting up it and over it and round about it and now's the weather to get the job done and get it finished, look at the weeds growing up through the garden put that spray on it and kill it and of course they've got to be careful in case they kill the grass and around the outside is what It don't last and it's like that and they haven't finished it I think it is moving a little bit The little ones go out on their own Mm and there's a white one coming in look over the end of the jetty there Oh yes Good god you'd think erm , to, er put the piles on that. Don't they? Mm Mm Oh I, nothing in the cupboard Yes that Yes I put me belt on through he's out of home now, he never used to be No he use to have his own house, last year he went into it you'd think they'd get some of it and to weed the gardens pass the time looks to me as though he can hardly walk that was his feet They must be coming up to er rush time Yeah, and a lot of Anything exciting going on here? Perhaps has took his contract over because he can't afford to put more of them, mm No, and if they do that sort of thing they can charge the earth for it No they can't charge any more than what they've got now, because they can't bloody sell it, look at her Ah, it's a right teaser Good enough innit? That's ah Mrs bloody dog oh bugger it, why should she have to clean it up, she should take it, put it in the bag and post it to the environmental health Mm That'll do them a favour wouldn't it? Once, you would think he, she wouldn't have seen it or she wouldn't have No I can just see David doing it and he said of all the places along that road, they have to come and do it outside his Well it might as well be outside his as somebody else's Well that's what I said to him, why not yours he only just cut it, that couple of grandsons they've all done it all up Well that's ripe and fresh and juicy Oh well you'll have to write that date down in your book now Yeah what did you say twenty second? Yeah mm you bring your book cos you don't think to look at the card Give us a car, look at this car Oh that's a nice one innit? Green Oh It's an antique. Running the roads Mm? Running the roads Oh it's not out very often Yeah, that's not very often Where we used to stay in people there they've got a good an enormous thing like a Rolls or a Daimler or a mm Very, very expensive cars, they use big I don't know but they used to go but they didn't really used to go There's some more planning going on here No If you pay for you wouldn't buy that for a grand off them people he said at no price belongs to the the garage belongs to the Why? It's behind it ain't harming nobody Oh well it's down the corner, it, you know, they build on it, you're entitled to go on it No, it's behind the shop where that rubbish all is blowing this way What the hell is this white car? Stranger in the camp Mm? Down you come and put it away What? Yeah Mark reckons they've done a good job on the water have they? Well I don't know. When we were at the flat er I'm not quite sure, I think the one was a Tuesday and the other was a Sunday, when there was a bus used to go down to Tenby the bus? Mm. It still does. Mm It still does. Does it? Well Mrs er and her family, you know, used to go down there. Because we went once or twice. What, on the bingo bus? Mm. They used to go about one o'clock. Yeah. And pick up at quarter past seven at night. Oh they're still Quarter past six. Oh six I mean and then they come back at they're still going down? ten, eleven o'clock. This one went down in the afternoon. After dinner. come back about What ? nine to ten. Unless they've scrapped the noon sessions. But the main bingo bus that used to go used to go about six. Quarter past six. Oh I don't know, this was an afternoon bus. You know, early afternoon. And used to go on it. Mm? It erm well I dunno cos if you were in bingo they would say the bingo bus goes at Oh we didn't go to bingo. But it was though. Well that must have been just a bus going. Well. Perhaps they were having two sessions, afternoon and evening. Maybe. They'd of announced it wouldn't they? I dunno. Won't be long then. Ta ra Danny. Is this thing on? Mm. Won't be long. Can you see the moss? Look. It's all round here. Mm. Look at it all here, brightening up. Mm. Look at it picking up. It's our summer coming . Yeah, look at it. Everywhere. And look at that. Clover all in it. Yeah. Well I'd rather have clover than bloody moss. I don't know what I can do with it. He won't. I told him last summer about it. Well I think it's cheating If I knew where it had come from I would do it. Mm. Look at this little one coming up here. That's Oh there's our chimney having a smoking session. Is it? Aye. Right. Now there's somebody behind us. Look at these baskets. Mm. They're only baskets to keep the birds off. Oh. Oh Danny's been in this bloody car. Don't know how he does it. Yeah? Look there's the chimney. phaw Oh oh my goodness yes. stinking. of it. Poof. I'd like to see the flames go whoof out of the top. Yes and me. And the smoke coming up thick and heavy. Look how those yellow flowers are coming out pretty. Mm. Couple of days makes all the difference. Who is 's fish and chips? Well 's fish and chips. Is that their name? Yeah. Mr and Mrs ? Mhm. Oh. Oh! It just looks foggy over here now. Yes. She said it was going to be foggy tonight. Mm. Daffs are looking nice aren't they? Yeah. I've got indigestion since dinner. Yes and me. Oh my god, it's terrible. See if it was warmer and dryer, I'd go out there and I'd rake that lawn. Yeah. Cut it short and I'd rake hell out of it. Yeah. And then I would pour moss killer over it. Then you've gotta rake it again. Well I I think it's a whole summer's job isn't it? Well how else can you get rid of it? No, well it is. To clean a lawn like that, is a whole summer's job. You've gotta rake it Yeah. and rake it and rake it. Then nobody else'll do it, so I've gotta do it. And even if you dig it up turn it over and start again that moss is in it isn't it? That's it. The seeds are there. No I would say it's er it's er bunging the ground up. It's not aerating the ground at all. You know the the air can't get into the ground to let the grass grow. It'll just take over. Have you got a book that tells you what to do? I dunno. I've gotta read about it. Wednesday today. Mm. He's still up on the roof then. he's been reading his horses. Waiting to cross the road perhaps. Bloody hiding from somebody by the look of it. Waiting to see if they've come out. what's running on the two thirty wants to be there in time. That's way down the road. That's what I say, perhaps he's waiting to cross and come down here. Well he's got a long wait. You haven't stood at the side of the pavement. Mm mm. Now if this bloody electric board is shut Again. What does it Oh god damn no. I'll catch it now before it does. Oh it is open. Yeah because you've gotta go Yeah. to the post office. This ruddy thing. I'll be glad when they move it back. It's not much help to anyone. No,You'll have to hurry he'll be shutting the door in a minute. Yeah hang on, I've gotta go to the gas board first. Okay see you . . All the best now. Thank you. Enjoy it. I will. Bye now. Bye. to switch me off at the flat. Do you think you could switch me back on? I want some hot water to clean up Well it is a final account. One Chestnut Way? Yeah. Yeah this is a final account. I've got no lights see. Pardon? I've got no lights out there. No No well you see you've finalized now. You took a final reading. This is the final account, so that means that you've finished altogether with the property. If you go back in then I see and turn the supply back on Yeah. well whoever moves in then will have to pay, you know Mm. You'll have to sign back up for it if you're gonna use it. Well I've got no I can't get hot water to, to wash out you know, before I leave it. hand the keys back Monday you see? You shouldn't have taken a final reading until you left. I didn't I didn't This is a final. O A is final. Oh they must have done that then, the meters were in a room outside you see. Well somebody . I mean you don't No. The supply is still on there. Yeah. So I mean there's no reason why you can't get hot water, it's just that erm it's just that with this it means that you've finalized it in your name. So whoever's going sign up for it. You'll have to fill in another form now. Well just have normal electric then I suppose. Well it's just, it isn't off, it's off, just off at the mains. Oh. the whole quarter. But there's no electricity at all, it's black see. Can't get lights or nothing on. So there must be something wrong. Yeah but they haven't been there to disconnect. No but I mean there must be something electrical, a fault, an electrical fault of something. Well you'll have to get in touch with the council. Yeah Alright? Because the Er a small loaf of bread please. Erm A tin, a cob or a batch? Now then Now it's decision time, your choice. Erm batch I think. I haven't had one of them for a long time. It's make up your mind time. Yes. Fattening time, that's the trouble. When you start you never stop with them. Great, thanks. Thank you very much. Weather's getting better isn't it? Yes it is. Slowly but surely. Fine, as long as it comes. Yeah. End of the month and it'll be great. Ta ra Bye. Did you make a note on the day you posted ? I dunno. I might have done. I dunno. No cos if I haven't heard in a fortnight you know you're not getting any in. Amelia what? Amy Johnson. Mm. Aerhart somebody. Oh. Mm Mm. Aerhart She's the woman before Amy Johnson. She crashed. Her. She didn't survive did she? Amy Johnson did. Tom Jones and oh they've got a lot of old ones Alistair Sims. Oh Save them making new. Yes. Save the money The kids of today haven't seen them. Save the money, well they were better things than what they get today. Yeah. So maybe the the But the kids of today haven't seen them. maybe the taste is going backwards. Mm. Well it does go round in circles they see don't they? There's Little John look. Mm. Ah well. Well it's been dry for another day. Oh christ ? No. You want a Brighton rats? Do you want to buy some rats. Oh. To eat. She's hungry look. Is there nothing better than that on? I don't know. No That's Africa. Rowan Atkinson. Ooh. We have gifts for mother's day from March the twenty ninth. Where? Ooh. They don't tell you where do it? No. Oh the National the erm the Midland is joining up with With Japan. with Japan and somewhere else now. Mhm. Well there's there's er more Japanese trade done in this country than British, so Mm. So we've got no knitting. No. No sewing. I've got some mending. Have you? Well, I've got to shorten my trousers. Have you made fit? Have I what? You know, have you got to cut the bottoms off? Yeah. Well I dunno, yes, I think so. Yes. Too big. Cut the hem off anyway. Africa again look. It's Malaysia. Ooh. Look at her eating corn. Mm. Vegetable market look. Look at the kite. Mm. What if that got tangled up in an aeroplane passing? No, Yes, yes. Aeroplanes Oh they're used to it then. Oh what are they all cooking? sold in the shop I expect. the rubber trees is it? Mm. Or Look there, he's just chipping round the bark. er sap out of the bark. running out. Rubber. That'd kill a tree won't it? No. No. They only just touch the bark, they don't cut the trees. Yeah but if you run the sap all out. Well er the tree makes the sap. It's a rubber tree. It doesn't look like a rubber tree Well it isn't it isn't rubber, it's just a resin that converts. It's converted to rubber. Yeah but it didn't look like a rubber tree. Wonder if Margaret's packed? No. Margaret packed? No. Well who's she gonna get to pack? I'm certain. John always used to, I don't know whether he's still John or Richard. But you never hear them er about them do you? No, John is her friend of er oh I don't friend of what's his name her husband, Margaret's husband. Oh. Harry. Does she ever see him now? Occasionally. The they don't have anything er she won't talk to him. She, you know but time of day sort of thing, a few words. They live a good way apart. Mm. I oh a long long way apart. I think, I'm not sure but he's down near erm is it Los Angeles or er San Francisco?very often. But they have met. Ooh isn't it? Mm. Chinese. Don't hear much about China. And that's only what somebody, somebody has brought out and put together like. It's not er official news. All got strange names haven't they? That isn't er China is it? That's er Malaysia chiefly. Mm. But it seems, according to him now, times are better in Malaysia. On the line And if they've got the fire on. And when it's cold it's bloody cold in there. Oh well that's only in the night isn't it? Well that's when you want to put it on isn't it? I mean er it isn't cold. It isn't cold here at night in my room and my room is cold. Well it shouldn't be. Well it is Jo. It's colder than, than you're room up there. Cos it's got thermal bricks on. Oh well. And polystyrene lined. Most places There is a grey blanket missing. Oh well you won't have them to wash will you? Mm? You won't have them to wash will you? No. They've took the grey one . Anything I can do? Not really. And they didn't even paper and pencil. Oh well. More for the next time. Anything exciting there? I don't know er no not really. But er no. You can't really tell what's on the programme by the of them can you? Not really. High Road. Oh we can High Road at er ten past five. And isn't there on in the afternoon as well? Yeah. And that's the lot I think. They've a double page story of a of a er Glenys er Kinnock? Glenys Kinnock. Listen Russian officers were trying to sell four stolen nuclear artillery shells to Iran for six million pounds each a German T V station claimed . They're desperate for money see. Mm. So they've gotta do it. And all these Russian scientists with, you know, sending up these rockets in the air, they're going to go over to Iraq. Course they are. Well if there isn't one way there's another, you know? Iraq's got the money to pay them. Crooked bosses can easily steal their workers' pension cash MP's revealed in a shock report. They can exploit tax laws to raid benefits by design. Workers may also lose out through innocent says the Commons Social Security Committee Report. The, the committee which has been probing probing the massive pensions theft by former Mirror publisher Robert Maxwell warns that this could be just the tip of the iceberg. Other schemes may not be as secure as staff believe it says. The Committees urge the next government to bring in tough new pension laws . Maggie's er fan was fired. Anybody can you know di er diddle the pension laws. I mean like er Mark now, if he's paying in to pension for his firm, they can do what they like with it. Yeah? And he hasn't got a say. Well that's gotta be seen to. Mm. Queen mum spots shamrock nut . Well look at it. Hm big old tufts round their hats isn't it? Well look at that one. Oh it's down over his eyes. He's Well I think she's pretty silly to come and sit out there in the rain and disturb the I suppose it it perhaps it is under cover I suppose. No. But er The mo monster raving luny party Mm. could have it's own television election. Mm. He funds that all himself. Oh and there's, there's a bit in there somewhere where a lot of er the the tory party the tory central party, what do they call it? Has been writing to big businesses for money to help their funds. And it's stuck it in the paper somewhere that er Branson has given money and er oh you know lots of other people in big business have given money. And they've not. And er they're wanting their name taken off their lists. They're tory members you see. They, you know they are members. Mm. Paid up members. But they're wanting out of their business. And this erm this was er announced over telly last night five thousand Brits were urged yesterday to leave Libya Oh. because the United Nations considers plans to ban all flights to the arab country Mm. because of the Lockerbie bombing . Cos those men got away with it. Mm. And he won't let them come here. Oh I don't this erm Midland Bank, have you seen griffin's eyes? The Hong Kong Bank wanted them to do that or something. Because in nineteen ninety nineteen hundred and nine is it? What's it now? Two. Nineteen ninety nine China's going to take over Hong Kong. And that's why the Japs wanted the British in there . Mm. Did you see this er body on the bal balcony? An old woman sat on a freezing balcony Oh yeah. Where was that? Stockholm. What? Stockholm. Stockholm. Stockholm is in Denmark I think. See Ian next door shopping with him to. I know I know . Whether he's living with them! Cos he isn't home as much as he used to be. Is that the eldest one? Yeah. He's only home at weekends. I couldn't see a car. Ooh, Christ it's cold! Oh ! A woman and her That's nice innit? Mm. A woman and her little girl a tiny little girl , about four I should think. I don't know what she wants to be. she stuck the kid in the back of the car and put the grocery in and she picked her up and brought her into the front seat,ti , tied her in and and the the, the, the, this thing was coming about you know? Oh yeah! She shouldn't It was be there! She was kicking her feet about! She didn't like it anyway! Well perhaps there wasn't room for her sit in the back! But you gotta make bloody room! You mustn't put them in the front! You can be summons now for it!mm mm mm mm mm . Please don't change! Oh! Am I disturbing you? No. Not at all! It'll keep smaller than that when they're brushed. Ha! Ah well! Been mowing the grass, yeah? Yeah. Oh! Tea bags! I'll have to go back up! Tea bags and no veg! And a light bulb. That veg is too dear at Wrexham Davis isn't it? Oh it's rubbish! It's dear and it's dying! I've never seen nice veg there! Major road works and Fishguard. The main street is closed. Oh. Mm! Mm mm mm mm . Oh! Mm! It's a doctor. He's been for . No,. Unless he's got a monthly account and he keeps it in a book! I doubt that very much! It's his shopping list and all the bloody curry things he needs ! Are you coming in? Mm. What you lost? My book mark. I don't know, it went in the book. But I couldn't find it. He was driving a ruddy big Rover anyway! Oh ey So his wages is alright! Paying him well! Must be in the thing. Can't see it. no. Perhaps it isn't there. Where do I get the mud on these wheels? We might as well go rou , oh I don't know! Will they chase us if we went in there. Oh, somebody would, yes! Someone got to have it. Ha? You can't go through here can you? Mm. Yeah. This stool, that's a nice big one! Nice little coffee table! Like that stool! Mm. Look at this, phone table. All your bits and pieces in the draws Pieces and books. and close it. In the draws. That's nice innit? And this one goes into a table. Nice! Look at that! That'll do, if anything. Look at the price! Reduced to clear! It was two thousand, one hundred. They're nice! Oh, a nice seat there! Do you wanna sit? No. and get out. Yeah. I wanted to have a look at the price of their erm Chanderel Look at this little chair! Ah, go on What for? for knitting. Sit on him and try it. Bit . Is it? It is. Well, I dunno, you bounced into it didn't you? Yeah but if your behind was down in it. Ha ! Don't always do it like that. No. It isn't really worth my . That's all your getting for it. Mm mm, mm mm mm . the brown sugar isn't it? The caster sugar try and get . Have you got any bags of dried fruit? Which one do you want? The large one No,. No. Oh! Are you ! Oh, well this is the wrong way am I? Oh! Well that's understandable. What about ? Ah lovely! Oh great! Thank you very much. A bit of bread It's alright. Thank you. What do you want? Do you want currants? Oh that was nice! What? . Yeah . . Nope Mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm . Anything exciting? No. Nope That's it then. That's it. Yeah. What you got here then? Hot prawn crackers. Mm mm! Sounds nice don't it? Mm, no thank you! Hot prawns is a prawn and curry. and all sort of Yeah. And they gone and got. Oh, razor blades for Tony! Oh dear! Erm Got plants in there. Down here. Rennies, Settlers. Nope Tesco's sell them. I can't see any here either! I don't know what to look for. Razor blades. Never mind, we'll have a look in Tesco's. No. You get them in Tesco's cheaper. Mm. Mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm . There's your book marker. All with tassels Please do not move them,. Oh! I don't know! I had it in the car to Mm, and you can't took it in my hand and my pictures in the bag. That's a word search. No. What is that then? Oh God! A paper slider and a That's innit? Ha. One thirty five. It's a word search. Mm mm mm mm mm mm . And Cilla's big day! There's razor blades up there. They're not them though. No I don't know what you're looking for. Purple one it is. Ah . Yeah alright then . Thanks. It is all there is it? Yeah. Or leave them in the trolley. You can leave them in the trolley. You, leave them there can you . And then I can go across across this Oh sorry! it's . It's . Do you mean we have to get our trolley from outside? No, I'm not sure Sure? it'll be necessary . .Did you have this ? No, I did as a matter of fact. I was gonna look at the skeletons. It's a waste of time. Oh I don't know. Okay? The moths Have you got ? Mm. They might. You want the pate anyway? Yes. Shall I go and have a look and Shall I? I'll come for this okay? Yeah, okay. There was er powdered , you can buy anything now! What's that? Home cook book. Prime Minister down. You'll have to wait soup. Oh I opened a fresh one. Oh ! The film, look! That's a picture innit? Well I have seen it there. But I don't what price it is. Mm. Dark, rich blooded, it's a wa waste of innit? Well what can I do? It's going to rot altogether! What the hell we got here? Lilies, of assortment. Would they that? Oh, yeah false ro rockery plants Look at these little tiny things! Alpine. Ah ha! They want a damn good touch! What? They want huge or something. Well it's only a tiny box ! What did she want her epsom salts for? I've seen that It . What else you got there? It's for the garden. Give it the horses they No , it's for the garden. Here! It's in these boxes here. Somewhere. But these are plant killers! What? This is fertiliser for strong leaf growth. See this is one I've put on. They're wedged in. Lawn sand controls moss for a beautiful lawn. That controls it. Ah, that'll kill it. Moss killer! .See it kills moss in minutes. Prevents it for months! Once, one treatment lasts all the season. Rapidly greens up the lawn. This effect lasts for about four weeks! No, that's eight pound in four weeks. Every four weeks, yeah. The best thing is to cut it all off and just put it means we've gotta get a bit more soil and a bit covered, to pull it off. See this use at any time and repeat as required for treat in the autumn or the spring. It doesn't say . Quickly kills moss, algae and lichen on lawns, paths, fences and . Helps to control diseases on lawns. A little bottle. Apply over twe , twenty five foot, square feet how much is twenty five square? What is that front lawn? About a hundred square feet? Sure to be. We want two of these. No, I wouldn't say that! Oh, yes it's nothing! Hundred square feet is nothing! I thought it's a hundred but it it's getting on. More than fifty. Oh they're all bloody disgusting aren't they? They will be! Mm. A second application may be necessary after one month to control the more stubborn weeds. Yeah. It don't say moss! No. Moss, a bloody thing on it's own! It's not, that's a lawn food and weed killer. Yes. No. Yes, it is moss killer, look. Mm. But this is debris. Mm. Here you are for best results treat autumn or spring. Now is the time then. Yeah. No, I'll get some of that sand and throw on it first. Why should I waste my money! It's gotta be done. ?Ah? I think there's no other way would take it off and . You've gotta treat the soil after. Well I dunno. How would you put the paving stones down? ! Mm? You have to put . Well yes. You could leave a hole in the middle to put a plant or a tree or something in it. You fill the middle bit with Ah, that's it. Isn't it? I think so. Mm, I glass, look! Mm. It's expensive glass! Nice up there! Mm. This is Darlington glass! That is nine fifty. Oh! Oh yes, this one? Eight fifty. No. It wasn't . Oh no! it isn't the same. Yeah well, the three there. here like this one here. Eight fifty is on the end down there. Ah well! Dan isn't so bothered about it! Is he? Ah? He isn't so bothered about it! Well he's sure he wouldn't spend that money ! Very silly of him in the first place! Who Dan? Yes. No, before I got there. I'll get these. Thirty five six pound Oh, thirty! Thirty, yeah. Fifty. One forty eight. There we are! Many thanks! Great! very much. You don't er sell er Gillette razors the ba erm What sort of razor have you got? Oh, mark two. No, I think you've got the plus there haven't you? . Yeah, right. Sorry! Thanks. Changed the shop window again! Mm. You going upstairs again? I don't know,! I don't know! I buy you a quick A for me. . Ah? What? He's come down off . .They're all coming down off the bloody erm . ! All come off . Which is the nearest? Like meeting at the market! isn't it? Going to the market. Oh! God that wind's gone cold! I say that's a draft coming across us ! Mm! See that man. Mm? Doctor . He's aneis anaesthetist Oh. Oh God have knocked across! Mm mm mm, mm mm mm mm mm . Oh! It is cold! Innit? Mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm . Porgh Oh, look at this! I'll erm it'll be cheaper to go and two bags of bloody sand! And throw it on. But that won't kill it!. No, it drains it, see. Ah. How does it drain it? Makes the ground too dry for it to grow on. You're wasting your money!and get this the grass, the moss through. It's a devil of a thing, moss! I knew those bloody people! Oh ey Yeah, they were new ones. I didn't think he would! I don't know why! Well he don't know anything about gardening, you see! But I bloody would! And, and Lincolnshire, now just think Lincolnshire is a county full of woods it, it's a What's that gotta do with it? It's in the New Forest. It's a full and full of, full of woods! What's Lincolnshire gotta do with it? Because he says it's Lincolnshire ! No, he didn't! He said it's Nottingham! He Oh! Nottingham. And you buy Nottingham grass seed. And grow your own turfs. I don't know about the . And I thought they're no woods forest. Robin Nottingham! Hood's forest, innit? Lincolnshire. Nottingham! Sherwood Forest is in Nottingham! I said I think it's forest innit? But it's in Nottingham! Oh yes, well But you buy the seed! Grass seed! Nottingham seed. Yeah, well that's grown special, for the seed. But this is, evidently out of somebody's own wood. You cut down two trees and the the grass has been left and they took advantage of the bit that was there. Where did he get the address from? The the you know I don't know! Out the recommendation? paper I think! Oh yes! In Camarvon The only thing is, see what I'm scared of now, you go and put the mower in there and cart it out the back and the bits of moss dropping off the mower onto that patch! Oh. So you've spread it! It'll be front and back! Mm. Those tiles square. Yeah. Like the man next door. But I think they're about three pounds each! The last I heard of them. I don't know what they are now. Yeah, but in places you can have them a pound! Yeah. Well, when we had them they were a pound each. That's a very long time ago! And I think David had some er He bought the coloured ones. Yes. They're dearer. And they were three pounds each. Yeah. But on the way to Chearell arket they're a pound each! And would you want about four or five dozen? More than that perhaps? I don't know, I might . But the width of the thing. About four foot wide isn't it? Not a clue! No, nor me. I'd say about four by six eight, perhaps? So that's, four eights are thirty two, to say the least. Mm! Ah, ha ha ha ha ha ha! Oh, I say! Look at that sultry lot! Up there. What? Him and her sat on the fence, the they're slobbering away! What's on up here then? They're pulling the scaffolding down and Susan , it's bloody month too late! Oh ! Mm mm mm mm, mm mm mm mm mm mm . Mm mm mm mm . Mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm Oh, shall we go to the job centre? I don't think it's worth it! See what's going. Mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm . Oh, Woolworths. What have they got there? Glasses. Oh look,. Well what's going on here? Well what is that going on up there? At the roundabout. It's a ruddy dustbin lorry! Roundabout's there. Yeah, I think I'll go this way too. And now you'll find the same up this bloody way or something! Stupid! Ha ha ha ha! Mm mm! Mm mm mm mm Posh shops up here! Showing their corsets mm mm mm mm . and their underwear! Mm mm mm mm mm mm mm And the family butcher got not meat! mm mm mm mm . Oh, some lovely walking sticks! Ooh! Yum yum! Shop full. Yes. Mm mm, mm mm mm mm mm mm mm Gees that bloody car frightened me then! mm mm mm mm mm . It's a wonder they don't make a car port here you know? This is bloody ridiculous! What we've got here now? Oh they're surveying. Has that little house gotta come down? No, they're doing it up. Oh, they're gonna cut that corner off I think, by the look of it. Lose part of the garden or something. Yeah. Look at those paving slabs, we'll have to take one of them away today. one a night! Have one a week! Oh! Ah ha ha ha . God, the hospital's gone! Yeah. Flats. All in here, see them? Mm. Gone. Oh! Pity! These little towns What a ruddy way to come and avoid that bloody street, isn't it? are so old and maybe,so many and all drains and this and that, and the next thing!! Watch that bloody dustbin lorry come in here now! It's er i , it's like a jigsaw now isn't it? Mm mm! What are we going here for? Vegetables. Veg. Mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm Oh God, I hate this! Well for a Thursday, look at the car park! Mm? Not many about is there? There's a lot more in Quicksave! Yeah? I bet they have seen a change only he wouldn't admit it, if they did! Mm. Cos Leo's and all has come on. Yeah. That's down in the town, see. Do your shopping, then go round the shops there! But this is up out of the way! I bet they have seen a change! Yeah, they'll never admit to you! No, well you see they'll it in their annual returns. But er it doesn't get put in the paper you know individually. It's just, you know,s , so many million less this year, than last year! That's all, you know. Mm. Mm mm mm mm . Oh Christ! This is getting closer! That'll do! Go on! Oh, and I've gotta go to Weslicks after this! Gotta go where? Weslicks Mm mm mm mm . Yes please. Mhm. Hark at that dog! Just to knock your hand in. the dole brings you to. Does! Oh? No problem! Well I can say it's Ally's car! Does! You've got to use whatever you put your hands on! I mean it isn't it isn't necessarily the goal! I mean if you've got your house on a mortgage and you're on the dole, takes all your money too! Everything! There's, there's nothing left for anything other than to eat! That, that you've earnt like! That's right! I noticed that there was only one man , that's all I heard of. Er er really attacking the, the the poor people! Not, attacking them, standing up for them! Er how did he expect the poor the people to live and pay mortgage and er, you know all this and that on dole money! Side, you can't choose anything! You've No! gotta have what you've got and that's it! And everybody is at risk of employment! Which is either business side of Yeah. it and, and there was one, like a why all this er er er oh, why are the schools so bad? And why are the hospitals so bad? And, why is everything so bad? But they're not! They're not, he kept saying! They're not! We've just given them so much bloody and if your houses are in bad condition go to your council! Ey if you've got a council house, it would be wouldn't it? Ey go to your councils! They have the money! But they're not interested in the ones who've bought! Yes, it was all nonsense he was talking about it! He was covering up all the time! Covering himself! Just saying something to pass it over! Yeah. Cos it was only on the telephones, you couldn't see the ! Yeah. But this one man did give him Rule Britannia, and got him all taking the same time as him! Didn't know what anybody was talking about! Mm! Be glad when it's all over! Every time you hear the word election, you start to cringe! And will do! Ey That's a Jewson bus, look! Is it? No ! Looks as though he ought to be ! Ooh I say, got the caravan in front of the house there! Living, living in that till the house gets built! Oh! When their house is finished, they'll sell that! Oh! To somebody else then who wants to live in it just till it's built! They might keep it in the garden and have it as bed and breakfast! It only needs that heater on don't it? It's warmed the car up. Oh, I saw Mrs ! Did you? Ey she looked with the red scarf who's been having problems with it! Yeah? Well she went she'd left him with their baggages on the seat at the front of the shop Yeah. and she went across the road for something and while she was across the road Mrs came and was talking to that man. Did she see you? No. She was er er she was really Mrs she was in a tearing hurry! You know, never Well I'd have stopped her! I'd have er Oh, she didn't know! to find out who's about But she was this! talking oh she was talking with him, so it's rude to interrupt like that! And always, before she'd talked, finished talking to him she was off on down the road. But it was her, and I was thinking after she's sure to have retired now. Oh I dunno! She will be retired when she's forty, see! Why? There's six behind her She can go on till she's sixty five! I don't think so! But she's the breadwinner! Well I think he's getting the, you know? She can't leave him or something like that, maybe? She told, she told dad she didn't want to give up work! She should hate the day when she a , hadn't got a job to go to! Yeah well, don't forget now she's on her way back to school, see! Oh I dunno! She might be but er she'd got the same red skirt on as she had she were wearing when we were there! Mm. She didn't look quite as natty as she usually does! But, of course, it might be an off day on her! With the wind, the wind blowing. Ah! But it was Mrs alright! The he was very good you know, he was quiet and peaceful. Didn't disturb anybody! Not do anything, but still you can't depend on that can you? The daffs there! Yeah. They're beginning to fall all o ,now. Mm. But they haven't had much sunshine really! No. A ruddy mess outside your door innit? Mm mm. See this woman? She walks up to the shop here! She don't go to Busters I don't know why? It's a Polish woman. Oh! Mm. Well they're probably cheaper! Oh I see. Perhaps it is. Well the milk is! I don't know what the So probably she coming up I for her milk! I don't know! What about the groceries? And it's exercise for the dog, see? Yeah. No, but her daily milk is a big difference! Thirty three Oh yes. to twenty six! But I don't know! What about her groceries being cheaper, and that is in the long run! But er No, but if, if she had her milk there every day! And her veg there! Cos they grow a lot of veg in there! It's exercising the dog! And it's cheaper! Oh, look at the greens! Willows. Pussy willows coming out! No, I think it's all gone innit? These are , yeah. yeah. It was pussy willows all back there. Yeah. Couple of . It's gonna rain! Oh if we're, we're coming. Mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm . Well I wonder, did Mark enjoy his days work? He said so. Oh, what's he doing? Yesterday! He was working! Oh! Said he was enjoying his holidays! Mark would there! On his own, he'd love it! He would like it better if Sally wasn't there! Yeah. But he said it's make it awkward! Sally has holiday on her own but she can't go about. No. As er, she can go if they won't let Kirsty in, she can go one night, he can go another night. Mm. It's a change, but er it's a change to have somebody to talk to as well!isn't it? But will he ? Even if it's Mm. next door innit? The way of life is different for a Mm. week. Oh well they'll be no cooking! And she'll make him bloody wash up! Will she? Oh, he'll have to do his whack there! Yeah ! Sally won't let him get away with it! Oh, whatever's on the road! Paper bag. Yes, he'll have to make his beds and he does his share of the cooking and all! Oh! All the way. Half and half. But even, you know,e , even if they go for a walk into to Tenby, it's company! Yeah. But Mark would like to do it without the company! Mm. Sally would like that bit of company. Well she's on her own all the time, see! Yes. What the hell is Oh tractor! Ooh! I don't know what's going on down there. Oh, surveying. They're starting the dig out. It's coming up for Easter, see? Oh yes. They're all ready! And where they're gonna go, and what part are they gonna do! Is that the old erm er map there, sort of? Yeah. So they know where the buildings were. Mm mm mm. Mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm ah ha ha ha ha ha ha ha . Got that little corner there. Little greenery around that corner. It's all dandelions! Great long-uns Yeah but get that like this! Let a tortoise loose in there for an hour or two. Yeah. Mm mm mm mm ha mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm ha ha ha ha mm mm mm mm mm mm ha ha hum Some daffs all the way up. Yeah, but they're so white aren't they? Yeah. Well, better than nothing at all! Funny way they get them all the way out to the other side! What? The flowers all up on that side of the road. There's some here look! On the bank. This is the new part, see? That other part the bank is the old part! Oh! I expect there's there's bushes all here, see? They'll all fill in, just now. Mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm . Look at him digging a bag of bones somewhere! . . Oh God! Ha ha! Oh I say! She don't know which end her coat is at ! Well it's a tatty looking coat anyway! Yeah. Ah ha ha ha . Have you got much shopping to do? Not a lot. Well I pay for the copper! Where are the vegetable pies? Vegetarian? That's just pasties. I'll have one of those then please? You haven't got the corned beef? You want corned beef? Yes at the top there. These? One oh can I have lightly baked one? Alright? Good! Okay? Fine. Ah, two well baked loaves please? And I think,. Mm mm mm mm mm mm mm . Three twenty. Here you are. Mm mm mm mm mm . Hiya Hiya! It's horrible, this job shopping innit! Mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm Gonna switch this off. Three pound and three please? Three's five ten, and ten is twenty. Thank you. Thank you. They know in their in their own fashion don't they? They're up there! They're up there love! Do you want a cup of tea? Here love, come puff pastry. Mm mm mm . Give me that one. Do you want them?! .Gone away! Mm mm mm . Yes! No! I won't! I won't forget! Chocolate . Mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm . Do you want a cup of tea? No I No idea! The other thing. But I need them! I'll get four chips with them. Mm mm mm mm mm mm mm Oh!. Tins of baked beans love! One. Mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm, mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm . Yeah. Mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm, mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm, mm mm mm mm, mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm, mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm . Oh stop it! Get off the ground! Would you please stop ! ! You're not ! Big fat ! Yep! Mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm . Oh that bloke's a real ! Mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm Don't no one look! Oops! Mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm . Excuse me! Have you got the time on you please? No. Erm Cos I I got a watch and it says five past twelve, but it's more than that! Yes Because we I think it's more than that! Yeah, I put wrong I think, yeah. No, sorry! And she was born into it. Her father, you know? Into high society in then. Oh well! The thing is what's she doing with all these bloody skiing holidays for? Then she's not learn what she's gotta do! Oh God I just about it! The pressure of the work . The Queen in other words expects too much of them! And she might come at you very very but . She's taking too much out of them! .This is what the people are saying. It isn't too much Danny! She isn't doing enough! You know, she's living too wild a life! Too wild a life! They're not knuckling her down to concentrate! You know, they have to go and speak at meetings, and shake hands with everybody I know! and all that,! And she'd rather jump on a pony and go! Because the Queen Mother isn't . Well I saw . .Yeah. What's his name? Wesley? No. I'll come to it . Mm? He's, fooled her twice today. I had to, the second the time only after the bloody ! I thought I recognised the voice I says, you got the wrong number pal! I'm sorry sir, he said! He said I didn't want to bother you. .Well! And he would ring off. And I put the phone down as well. Well, did you ask to go to the ? He said hello Mr . Well, he had the right number then didn't he? I didn't say it! I asked him if he had the right number? I didn't know who he was! Then he said the same. Oh! I suppose he thought he was talking to Sally. Oh! .I didn't. Mm mm! He didn't say what he wanted? No! I didn't ask him! Cos I thought that he had the wrong number! I didn't know who bloody Wesley was! I didn't know his name! Could of asked him! Well he bloody said but but I didn't know him! Never mind! All I've been introduced to that bloke as Sally's friend! I've never been ! So how was I to know? Oh ! Mm? There wasn't much in that magazine. Got your car though. It's cold isn't it? Soon know. The Queen the Royal Family get paid in this . Well the solicitors do. Mm. The Queen's supposed to know. It's where I get though. But Andrew will have to keep the children. Well they want, they want divorce and they'd rather custody of the children and if they'll some but she can allow them to take the children away cos the well the media coverage, they've obviously got they have a law. Cos they don't know whether she's going to America or Australia. The to her. Her mother's in America and her sister's in Australia. Her sister is parted from her husband went through a divorce so, Mm. Catherine. But two cars took her out against and they believe that she's gone to the airport and they didn't know where where she was excised. Ah? They wanted Texas where her father her mother lives. Yeah, her father's dead,two years ago. Where it says step-father. You wouldn't recognise him! Oh yeah. .This reporter's saying that it's her mother's,yo , you'll see!she married. And they said that the one in Australia, her sister in Australia wouldn't tolerate it! No, but it's what they're saying to Fergie, is just go! Get away from it all. Mm. Because the media they will not give her peace! The and all the crowds. There's hundred weren't there! All the time! Even the police cars are there! The police can't bloody move unless to her! There's something there! They, they can't er restore it up where there isn't any! I know. And they're looking for the first little thing! Oh! I mean, now you get big money for the first story! Ey it's like that one from America Yeah. offered her work. Two million! Two million dollars, for her! Get out of my bloody shoes, Mick! I'll, I'll laugh laugh if you like that magazines or something. Tough luck! Ey They ain't going for them! Tough luck! Probably end up getting . Mm mm mm Now we've started. No , well it's their problem! It's the husband, it's the kids that suffer anyway! That's right. Well they won't! Oh they will, mind, they'll want to know where their daddy is, and why he doesn't come! Yes but I suppose if you get custody holidays they can afford the best of everything! Mm! Tap dripping. . Time for a dog's bowl! Can you put some of them scraps in it? Mm? It's four o'clock! You'll have it on, on her. Yeah. Told you he wouldn't, didn't come. He didn't come! Nope Ah, well that's you then cut out mum! Ey ! You won't keep , you'll get whole book! Mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm . rung. bloke .. Bet she was really . Ah,. I didn't know the bloody blokes name! I happened to have it, the phone use his hands. It could of been Sally's friend. But you could ask, who are you who are you looking for? Yes. I know what's really cutting her up about too is very near I didn't know what to what to do. Get that the paper out today? Yeah. Where is it? Well I don't, there's been her and Lisa! I thought we should of nicked that lot! That's about quarter of an hour isn't it? That was the last one. Mm? Well that one looks twenty er the wash basin in it. That's too much going on too long! It's either the shower or Now it's your wash basin! I heard him shouting at it. I was there last night. Before she ran into the wash basin. Come on, where do you leave the paper ? What? Read the paper . Have a look at all the pages. What erm what time did he ring? About one, two o'clock. And why does he sit in her house waiting for her? Well it's on his way home. Private home. It is a private number it wasn't a phone box. I didn't know the bloke by his name! I didn't know who I was talking to! You should of asked! I did! He said ra Jesus Christ! I'm talking to a wall! And, what's her number? . Doing a fine job! Are you? What in? Polish! Polish! Polish! Oh! Must make a Friday, a Polish day. A what? A polish day. Right. Even just to wipe the polish round No, it's , yes. And then you, you You polish them. Well you're supposed You went on Monday you're supposed to give it a good bees waxing once a year! The rest of the time you, you you warm the polish rag and rub that over. And then I, I, Have you done the radiator? hard rubbing is the secret of it all. And we've done the window sills all upstairs. And it absorbs it don't it? I put a good bit on there and soaked it let it soak in. as if you would have a polish day every Friday you could put it on Thursday night. You don't want to put it on early but And polish it off If you Friday. Yes but you see if you put a lot on it's sticky! Oh yeah. You gotta keep them, you know? Mm. Rubbing it ahead with a duster will do for weeks! Mm. Oh are going through the hoop! It is erm a fact boys pour your money into BUPA bank robbed. And they put it in, if he's Mm. going. Yeah. And it says a ,i ,i it's stating things here er if you've been wanted operation a long time the N S H er N S H that is it, yes. N H S. N H S they will re transfer your name to Bupa and Bupa will write to you and say they've got a bed if you'd like to have it. Because you've gotta pay for that. Danny could have had his operation three years ago! If you'd been on Bupa. The first thing they asked him was how much money he'd got! Yes. And, do you belong to Bupa? Mm. And he said, how the hell can I pay that! Mm. And they said well it's . Well in in nineteen seventy nine before the Tories, there was only one Bupa hospital. Mm. Now there are thirty! Mm. And another fact is, last year Bupa announced record losses of sixty three point three million! Fact the Department of Social Security is splashing five million for health cheques for it's staff all on Bupa! Mm. To keep the private one going! Prime Mist Prime Minister Major spoke last year at a nurses awards dinner organised by Bupa he said there was now much more scope for private health firms. A , Health Secretary William Waldegrave is a member of BUPA. That's the Health Secretary! Mm! But if you listen to him on telly, he isn't! Oh well . No. Course I er the main subject today is the pot calling the kettle black! Mm. M F I, sixty five percent off look! Mm. Elderly patients cower in terror as two nurses battle it out on a ward! A tribunal heard yesterday. Tempers exploded at breakfast time after Rosemary and Carssier who had feuded for a month accidentally bumped into each other between two beds and their slanging match to violence when Rosemary shouted what you need is a man! Bed ridden patients at St Mary's A St Mary Abbots Hospital are geriatric and and psychiatric unit in London's Kensington narrowly escaped injured injury as five foot two Carssier grappled with Rosemary six foot and well stoned! And it was Rosemary who finished up in casualty after Carssier kicked her three times in the stomach! The ides industrial tribunal in Chelsea was the fight ended only when they were pulled apart by the angry matron! Rosemary, twenty eight, claimed that Carssier grabbed a patient's organ no angry Rosemary, twenty eight, claimed that Carssier grabbed a patient's orange juice threw it over her and kicked her! But Carssier thirty two insisted she only tried to defend herself after Rosemary repeatedly punched her! Rosemary who had a caesarian operation just four months earlier, said she did not touch Carssier She told the tribunal, just look at me! If I had touched her it might have been a very different thing! Simon , ex-manager of St Mary's Mary Abbots, said the safety of patients was put at risk! Cassier of Notting Hill so she's a black-un! Was sacked by Riverside Health Authorities after disciplinary hearing. She claims unfair dismissal . Cassier's the white one! Oh yeah. From Notting Hill. She claims unfair dismissal and the case continues . So Mm! Oh,Cilla Black met Mickey Mouse yesterday and the excited scouse laughed! Put on a pair of Mickey Mouse ears for the occasion. But it was easy to tell the stars apart Mickey was the one who could open his mouth and smile without looking like Goofy ! He got together with the T V presenter when she opened a half size replica of Sleeping Beauty's castle at Battersea Park, in London the castle, giving visitors a preview of the Euro-Disney Centre which opens near Paris on April the twelfth. See they're still saying April the twelfth. Will stay at the park until Sunday before moving on to Birmingham and Manchester . Oh yes, well I dare say isn't finished! It might be finished all but from painting and you know? Extra trimmings. I mean, they're working there forever and a day! Fergies twenty million kiss-off. The Duchess of York will be ordered to . It was I, it was in the book, Fergie and . She can't do it! She can't do it! But if she opens it gonna take her to the cleaners! She'll get the house if The Sunnin Sunninghill the five million house, built for the couple at the Queen's expense will remain Fergie's home for the foreseeable future. The Queen who gave it to Andy and Fergie as a wedding present has made it clear to her advisors that the Duchess should not be forced to leave, as long as the she adheres to her agreement not to talk about the marriage break up . But, a broke up's a broke up, innit? Well she's been talking hasn't she? The decision means the children will remain physically close to the queen and Princess Beatrice will be able to remain at the same school. The house is not regarded as a ac architectural masterpiece! It is nicknamed Southyork because of it's resemblance to R J Ewing's ranch, Southfork from the soap opera, Dallas! The house is like a fortress behind eight foot walls and set in four acre grounds. Various critics have likened it to a Tesco's superstores! The little chef and a glorified council house! It has pseudo-Tudor beams no expense spared furnishings, including a dome glass roof in the entrance hall and vast main function room with a marble fireplace and a galleried landing . Musicians gallery, innit? The house has twenty five rooms including special quarters for the Queen and the Duke of Edinburgh and Charles and Diana. It is multa and it is mortar and bullet proof. Outside is a twenty five foot swimming pool and landscaped gardens . I don't think Fergie would want to stay there. It is like er it is like She'll leave the country I think. It is like Tesco's isn't it? Mm. Oh yes, she'll go probably, I should imagine. The mul , and the Duchess of York will become a multi-millionairess, in her own right, as a result of the break up of the marriage to Andrew we can reveal today . Possible job, they can reveal it because it said in the on the front page that there's nothing been decided! Mm. Fergie will receive a mammoth payment of twenty millions pounds,! Which will come out of the Duke's personal trust fund. And another five hundred thousand every year paid for by the Queen! This will more than insure that she can continue to live in the style she's enjoyed since her marriage. Quite separately, the two children, Princess Beatrice, three, and Princess Eugenie, two, have been independently looked after again by the Queen! On their births a trust a fund of tens of thousands of pound was started for them in their names by their grandmother . This will guarantee all their school fees and the basis of their future . The huge down payment will come from a trust fund of one million, set up by the Queen for Prince Andrew, the day he was born . See, they've put that million pound into into a fund for him and that's been getting erm Interest and interest on it. twelve, twelve, thirteen, fourteen percent interest a year! And, you know compound interest. His sister and both brothers have identical trust funds this million pound figure has grown to the size, just today around forty million because Prince because the Prince has not touched it in all these years. As Andrew's wife, Fergie can claim half of everything he owns ! And they've given her half of it aren't they? Mm. Well everybody can do that. Mhm. Only it's just lucky that he's got a lot! .Senior Buckingham Palace aid confirmed last night the Duchess is entitled to claim half the sum now contained in that fund. City experts had calculated last night that the original million pound will be grown with wise investment to thirty eight and forty million. In addition to this lump sum the annual Of course, they don't pay tax! In addition to this lump sum the annual half a million pound allowance will be paid to the Duchess by the Queen partly to ensure that she is never tempted to publish memoirs or talk about her failed marriage. Such,shu shut up money arrangements are never openly discussed, but the financial arrangements within the Duke and Duchess will include a contract with a silent clause. The senior aide said last night there will be carrot and stick clauses. The Duchess will be told quite clearly that if news or information gets out publicly in any way she could be fined, for example will be warned that time spent with her children will possibly be curtailed if she doesn't tow the line . And it goes on and all. Well if she does she can have the children taken off her! Yeah. Her time spent with the children. So the Queen would hire a nanny to look after them Mm. at Buckingham Palace, and she'd visit occasionally. Well they'd give them to her too. Regular bills include a household expenses food, eating, a dress allowance and the retention of two nannies they've Here is er, Fiona Armstrong presents a special item in the national. In the na , to the nation, her baby daughter.. Oh. Nobody else ever had one. She's on the telly every day! She's part of your household isn't she? Well not mine! I don't even know who she is! Well she, she reads to you often enough! Oh! Oh, but I don't know her name. Oh watch the news . No, I'm just going to sleep at ten o'clock!. Got her . No, she'll never . She is as common as what . He must have been a fool for her er, you know? Well she was getting at Koo Stark! Well I don't know! When you come to check up on it Koo Stark is so ,so ,society! Yeah? But that was nothing! Oh. Oh Well I wonder will Robert and Diane stay tomorrow? Dunno. They usually, you know, say on the telly what they intend doing! I can't understand why they left it till the last moment? You know, before running up the door! Cos there'd usually be a how are you? Or talk to you! Nothing! You don't know what has go amongst them. But, but he'd of said wouldn't he? But erm We can only stay you know, we'll be coming on that night. He always does! We'll be coming over because of so and so, so and so, so and so! We won't be staying he'll say. They might of been out you see! And Robert's in bed and overslept maybe? And when he gets up and he's got to do this and he's got to do that,! .And perhaps the the neighbours leave the dog with Mandy how ever it is. The dog stays in the house on his own. Every day they go to work! Mm? Christine goes to work! The dog stays on his own! Well, Christine takes him up there if they come here for the weekend. Oh yeah. Or he, he goes and opens the door to let him out. Well there you, you see! Perhaps, perhaps they've arranged to go somewhere on Saturday. They might tomorrow night, I don't know! It's a great events coming here isn't it? When they're all and ! Well she doesn't go with Violet, does it? If they're , I bet she's got her nose in everything! No, I don't think she would. But if she wants . If they ask her to do something! She, she will. And if she wants a new pair of shoes she's gotta go to a new town and pay for them. everywhere to buy them! Got her a paper of shoes today for . Yeah but I haven't er decided right, I don't know her yet! Mm? I haven't decided, but I don't know her yet! .Can't wait till Margaret's gone! Mm. I'll go down then. Hoping that's gonna , ready like. Apart from everything, we know something about Margaret coming, see! And they're al , alright. Yeah. Shouldn't that be? Mhm. They will know nothing! Nothing wrong with her! No. No. Yeah er Prime Minister, John Major John Major's anxious wife, Norma has a job keeping her cool as she faces the anger of a town blighted by unemployment. The couple were both shoved and jostled as around one hundred demonstrators greeted them with jeers and shouts in Bolton, Lancashire. Police helmets went flying as officers formed a protective cordon around the Majors. Bricklayer, Tony one of the town's twelve thousand jobless said I came along to show my contempt with his government policies! Mr Major abandoned the plan of twenty minutes full campaign walk about after just five minutes ! Mm. We don't want them, you see! No. It looks better all the time don't it? Well i , if, it would be like that all over the country! But in one place ! Well it is like that all over the country though innit? No. Well I think the sky is brightening up! I do hope so! I mean, you can see that red bush in the corner quite clear now! Can you? Mm. And I would see it a lot clearer if my glasses were clean! Well I saw something here! I don't know what it was, but only a little tiny wee bit and it was real funny! I think . I can't find it now! It's always the way! No! Well I got some of . I can't remember where it is. Mm mm mm mmmm mm mm mm Oh ho, off to work we go da da da dum dum da da . What about ? James and Stuart a couple of and when he was preg erm that's Douglas Hurd. Oh yeah Dougie! He, when he was Foreign Secretary. What is he now? Foreign Secretary, you know? Mhm. He's so public, him. Oh God! Who would imagine! Foreign Secretary Douglas Hurd is on the telly all the time telling us he can't put his eye on a labour government to be firm with Gadaffi of Libya or sa or Saddam Hussein of Iraq. So here I publish a picture of him ten years ago when he was Junior Minister he is enjoying a marvellous a party at London's Intercontinental Hotel. He's forced the Libyan government a cause for celebration the tenth anniversary of the coming to power of their president Colonel Gadaffi. Mhm. Previous year Mr Hurd on behalf of the Foreign office was celebrating in the . The great event, an anniversary of the coming of power of the the dictatorship. And who was top man in that dictat in that dictatorship to which Iron Man Hurd raised his glass! Saddam Hussein ! Mm. didn't it? Mm. Mhm, and now they're trying to fight to get him from there! Well now they are fighting! I mean the , they've done it once a , and didn't do it! That's all creating him back up now isn't it? He was given a, a week Ah, ah, ah, ah ! or a fortnight or something to do something with their lot. It isn't raining is it? No, I don't think. A bit foggy! Dunno. Well, let's hope this weather picks up for when Margaret gets here. Or she'll be looking a bear skin! And her super warm coat! Oh yes ! Well i ah, I dunno. Well she won't think it's cold because I mean, it's sunny every day is it? Well she couldn't of had it colder than when dad was in hospital! And by hell it was cold! Bitter cold! And wet! And blowing! You couldn't had it worst! The only you could of had was the snow! Ooh, but that was! Well she shivered! And she shivered! Yeah ! Yeah, and what, new clothing and she said as, well what she used to say about it was nobody's business! And I mean, if they get a we , a wet day isn't it just rainy in there, it's lovely and warm! In there, well , but it isn't warm . But it is to us who is used to this sodding weather! We had lovely weather then! And, and we only had a rain on one day I think it was. Er, you know, like a shower, one big shower. Well normal shower. And it must have been cold bloody flat! Mm. Must of been, cos they'd been out all day. No fire, no nothing on! And then to go home, tired and cold in an empty place, and cold and must of been terrible! Oh I dunno if yo you get into bed and the blanket was on,yo you know, you know? She said she wasn't expecting to go out, out all day ! Well she erm she can't remember exactly! But I mean er she knew But Rowan and her went on Boxing Day. When did David and Pam go? I've no idea. Cos she didn't sleep here. So they all must have gone out for the dinner. So they must of stayed until erm Boxing Day, Christmas Day rather. Oh they're coming here for Christmas. Wish they was. .And they went on Boxing Day dinner. They had their dinner and went! I've no idea! Not the foggiest! Didn't they stay at the flat? Somebody did! Yeah, David and Pam and Margaret all slept at the flat! And they must of come over for Christmas dinner. Yes, because David tucked into his er Christmas pudding! He loved it! And Pam was shouting about the bloody cholesterol! And then they had Boxing Day dinner. And David and Pam must have gone as well, cos Margaret went with Rowan. Up Newtown way, they were going up to Ruth. And Wonder where she got ? I shall bloody quiz her about that! And er David and Pam must of gone the other way you know, they'd gone their way home, and had gone her way home. But er and then Astra was here and she was going bloody North! She goes ey and it's colder up there ! Well she found it cold here and she . Oh it was hysterical because it was blowing a gale! Violet and me were over cleaning your flat. That was the day you was taken into hospital and she was in the bed, cos they were on their way down so we were changing the bloody beds! And you come down through the alley way and you could not keep your feet on the floor! You could move! And we'd got these bags,, I said just bang all the sheets into bin bags, we can wash them next week if you think I'm starting! But make sure, you know, you well you take over the house, so we know what's in them in case they get thrown out with the bloody rubbish! So we put them all into bin bags and we was trying to carry these bin bags so the wind was taking them like balloons ! And you were hanging on and trying to keep your feet on the floor! God, I laughed! And then er they came. I can't remember what time or anything about it. I think they must have come to the flat. They'd been for a meal and they came to the flat and they rung us to say they were there. Something like that, I can't remember. And then, the next day they came over. I think they came that night. The next day they came over. And this gale was still blowing! And it was blowing! You just couldn't Well I dare say they went back to the hospital! No, they didn't! No they didn't get, be there till eight! Just eight-ish something like that. Cos they'd been for a meal on the way as well! Cos I've said come over for supper. No, they didn't want supper. Cos they'd had this meal. And erm then the next day they came over and David was laughing, he said, do you, do you know the alley way down between he said, well it blew it her up right against that bloody wall he said! Well Aunty couldn't move he said! He I and I said, and you laughed at her? Course I did he said ! And I said, did you help her? No, I didn't. Let her battle it out he said! Well they came over here then and they'd been up and they come back with Gillian and all that and they stayed. And they went from here about nine-ish I suppose? They'd had supper anyway. Then they were going over and they were gonna go to bed. They'd been to the hospital, and they'd been over the flat so I said to them well pop the blankets on and come over here then and have your supper and go back. And the beds will be nice and warm for you to get into. But anyway, they left here about nine o'clock. Well she'd gone out through the door and the wind took her down the bloody street! I said to though, he said she was going there another way! And David was there was laughing ! And it was just she was running with it! There's just her battling against it ! They have mid-winter days just like our high summer! It was lovely! Oh and we laughed about it! And I said, better go and collect her! But David said look at shifting ! Yeah but er you see on Christmas Day children were going about in bikinis and and shorts , or no socks or so Mm. I couldn't, you know,i ,i , it's difficult to put it in your head, like when I was there! Oh, it's Christmas Day you know? Mm. Christmas Day! And I get us up in the morning now and, she said she said the temperature rises to sometimes a hundred and twenty in the summer! And if it's a very hot day you try to stay in. Yeah, but it isn't summer yet! Mm? It isn't summer yet! No! But if, if it'll do that at mid-summer i , it It's about ninety there now! Eighties. Yes. Eighty to ninety, sure to be! And that's one of our terribly hot days! Of course, everywhere i ,i , it's all air conditioned and and it's, obviously. Definitely mustn't open a window! Then the, daren't open the window! Cos the flies will come in. Well she'll have bloody shock if she was here in the summer then! Yes, I think. Of course, I don't know, perhaps they Couldn't live in the winter! Perhaps their flies are different to ours. They are, they're the, the same. Th They're mosquitoes. Now then, she mosquitoes so they, they bite . Anyway you get a mosquito bite . Yeah but, she said they don't da ,the they bite you and it's got poison if you're not careful! I could never live with the window shut! Of course, the room is air conditioned all the time. They have the batteries going and all. Yeah cos they have it keep pushing! Same here! One place to another! Yeah, but it , it's circulating i , isn't it? Yeah , but it's all the same. not too nice. It isn't fresh! I was saying Danny the other day do you remember the time he came and got out his in there? I would get a piece of erm well I got a piece in the greenhouse it wouldn't worthy of it then, but it doesn't matter! Piece of board and fix in the doorway and fix it open. Put it high enough so that the cats wouldn't come, but leave it then. It's just a big window open. Cos then yo , once you have the doors closed as low as that cos no air gets in! No, actually cos it's not air We opened the conditioned here! They are there! You open the top and then let the cats in at the bottom! Yeah, that's it! And, and circulate air, you see. So I put a board across there. They've got double windows. Like, they got the window and then they've got erm a, a sliding Sliding window inside. Yeah. Like a, a, a net to keep the flies out. You can open the outside window. What do they call them? Yeah. Erm Mosquito thing. Well we used to have them in Middle House. Erm, but ours was a piece of frame work and a grating on it, and you stuck that in the window, when you opened the window you push that in so the air could come in and mosquitoes couldn't. You used to mo , mosquitoes dreadful at Middle House when the lake was there. It's the damp warm and damp. No, the lake was mouldy you see! Yeah, oh! Stale, dirty water! Was a breeding place. And we'd be out in the middle of that! Buzzzz All in your face! Mind you, you do everywhere! Yes, but that was a breeding centre there. It was they were back and forward there by the thousands! Oh I knew , I shall have to go and er put my bits back together again! I got the clock all on the floor now! Well, yes. Anyone put their bloody foot on it! Oh well, the sky is looking a lot brighter. Isn't it? Well it's still got a lot to do. Er, oh well it's er That's if we've got it back! It's about somewhere! It's poking through somewhere. Oh God! I shall be satisfied that er er these things are shooting up . I, I in, in the night. Good God, that one is going now! Don't know where the hell it's going! That one's going right up! It's nearly up on the fence! When it was a . What? The clematis. From erm Wales. It's sort of pale innit? Which one? Which one? And the daffs are still looking nice! Tomorrow is it,coming here? No. Oh. No, Violet was It'll be Easter won't it? Next week, the week after or something? Well I thought, she's coming down with Martin and Uncle Marvin and all that, and she's going to be here for dinner, now she isn't! Oh. going up the step. They look a lot better than they did last year! Well they've spread it now. What about this poor thing in the corner? Come in ruddy cat! You come in. It's a late one. Two week. Oh is it? Oh! Come in ! Here, you alright now? You got a white one. What? There's a lot of white ones! There the ones you brought in er Are they? white. Undo it all. There's an animal up there. Oh! Oh yeah, they were a mix! She did get a few out of one bag and a few out of another. , but I said I didn't want er Narcite Aren't those funny? Those two that you had in , you'd of thought they'd have bloomed quicker, but there's they're like that! Oh yeah ! What happened to them? Growth perhaps? See them go, well they have now! Well, they've been up there long enough now to To spread. Yeah I know. Tried the again? Mm. Mm mm, I think the cat's are trying to ruin it! This is a miserable old lot here! That one's quite pretty, it's this bloody cable here! Oh I like that one! Well I think he's quite pretty! Poor old cactus! First it's erm it's erm they're too small! They're not ! No, well you want to put it in that front lawn . There's enough in that bloody front lawn, I don't know where ca about it! Know what to think about. I didn't know what to suggest about it. Well there is not because that doesn't seem to right I think they're guarding their van! Oh, there's plenty in there now. Ah, but this is the better of the two. A flaming lorry load of stuff! Ah but they, I don't know i ,i , if I dunno. I can't answer! Moving the or something. Put the bloody paraffin on it and burn the lot off! by the roots you see. It's the roots that you've gotta get them by the top. Leave for three years. Oh good! No, take the paper. Oh no! Yes that's right. Yeah, that's it. Here you are then! Nothing on the telly is there? Go and collect my bits out there. Oh no look at that! Right then ! Go and collect all my bits. Well have you finished . And they were forty what? Forty two. Let's have a look. La la la la, la la ah la la la la la mm mm mmm mm mm mm mm mm mm Fisherman's friend . Which friend are they talking about then? I said do you go to ? Oh! .It's for a . Are you coping then? Ay retire soon. Oh, so they're retired? Mm. They still don't they? . don't do anything! Tomorrow go and do the lawn. Christmas I think was the last time. What is the date today? Twentieth. Twentieth. Tomorrow is the first day of spring. Mhm. Hopefully! You eating some more potato? They just swapped another . Labour did? He made his press speech this morning saying that she couldn't even cos he thought that go down the hospital. And he saw many patients. Well that's what Norman Tebbit's telling him isn't it? Open the book. No and It isn't! It was about the same. He's already made the statement this time. And he was telling the opposite! And . Oh dear! gonna get the push first! Mm? Well I seems like every bank's lending! Just let me have the today. They should know after their Mm? game. Ha! went to Bolton yesterday. Ey he said. In his He had a rollocking there! He said that the they, him and Linda pack up. Yeah. And then him and Nora is. Norma. Norma. And police protection, get out of the town! He's gonna find a lot of that! Well when he gets in the right places he's only been doing schools and you know? Hazel knows nothing about it. That's the first time he said yesterday he says will you do something to Yeah and then you know he knows that er the su ,ones. But he hadn't been out in the That's why world yet! Mind you, that had always . Mm. That wasn't her earlier. No, but she was always out there. Never slept through! Oh yeah. And I don't think his wife is that type of woman. She can't stand that bit of pressure! Well Wait till the eggs start flying! painful You!which is strong I agree. strong conservative Very well! strong! Have you Oh! maybe she does deal with Ooh! with the conservatives. Five, six er Mm. Do you wanna watch it before I tape over it? Cos it's really worth watching! Is it? That is bound to get some stick! Ooh! What's that? I'm not gonna ! Cos like they say yesterday er . It's their down the road. I was really amazed at the people every time going round spoke the chair Mm! they're so staunch conservative! They have five seats in Bedfordshire they're all taken with conservatives! Good Lord! Only one side of them is crisp. work for her before they go. I'm fighting working harder they can't clear what they said what's happening without the other group coming. They're fighting with their lives aren't they? Yeah. Probably have to work harder! But they're not, they're not going to get anywhere are they? What is Major's job when he isn't Prime Minister? I'll tell you which his job is,. Not at all? Dunno. He used to work You mean the cabinet? He used to work in the dock's offices. Yeah. As a clerk. No, I know he was that. The next Prime Minister will get him a job, see. Won't he? Anything. Well he'll have a nice lot of money when he finished being Prime Minister. . Mm mm. Yeah,. Oh! And I can't There's too much of that P D R and Z Y X business! Ey And what's it mean? representation. What it is anyway proposal representation are being sent out if anybody down here you'll go into England if I voted conservative you know, just say for example it wouldn't be the one past the post it'll be the one with the most votes That'll get the job. that'll get the job for the county. Mm. And that's what it is. No. Anyway he says it will be decided upon cos it's the half an hour to go at it, you watch in the end . He said if there's one thing I always carry quite close to my heart and if you'll just give me a minute I'll take out. And he read this this P R and he said this is from a junior minister, Conservative minister in nineteen eighty four wro wrote these words in a book and he says that up and coming Conservative young minister was none other than than Chris Patten. And he was sat right next to him. He didn't know anything about this and he had to admit, he did say this! This . But now, he says, it'll change his mind. Mm To change his mind. You should of heard the people in the audience! Well you can change your mind if you want to! Yes but he wrote a book called this because he thought that er the conservatives were losing . And they thought they were . Yeah. And all he could say to them was ! Nineteen eighty three. Well what's gonna come in to save them this time? They're hoping fall all back down again that they're gonna fall back. Fa You reckon? go back again. And they think other people will change their minds. To keep the same Prime Minister now. You're wrong! I like Yes sir, what can I do for you ? I was er I woke up Monday morning right, and I had that and the Monklands on Tuesday, right? Because, and they told m he t he told me to come and see Aye. my doctor in a couple of days to see how it was. Ah, that's not ready for opening yet, Steven. Did they give you any antibiotics? . Aye, he gave me, he gave me some tablets I don't know whether What, what sort of stuff did they give you? I don't know the name of actually. That's it. Erm It was a wee capsule, brown capsule. What brown? Brown and brown and white? Aye I think it was. Ah, is it, is that penicillin? Mhm. Yeah. There's a form penicillin in that. What sometimes happens you s it sometimes comes up to a wee yellow head. Aye. And when it does that, you can put a needle in there and just all the stuff comes out all the yellow stuff that's underneath. How many of the er wee capsules have you got left Steven? Oh, maybe about half the About half the amount? Aye. About maybe about half. Right. take See you do. Is it four? Or three a day or four a day. Three or four a day. four. Er I would keep on with those right till they're finished and then come up towards the end of next week. Let's have a look at it again. Mhm. It might be ready for opening, or it might just have dissolved away itself. Aye. Sometimes it dissolves away itself. But occasionally that one it's sort of in between, it could come out Aye. to the surface. Get a needle and . Or it may dissolve away itself? Yeah. Or it might disappear itself, but don't put, don't go putting bandages on it. Don't put leave it alone. And it will go either it will come up to the surface itself or it'll just disappear. Mm. It depen it depends on your own system but it's come up a wee bit . Aye and what happens is, it usually starts in at the corner of your finger Aye. and then it spreads down towards your knuckle. Aye, well, that's That's what's happening. It sometimes goes the, the colour as it, as it starts to heal up the, colour gets a wee bit lighter Aye. and ste starts to spread down towards your next knuckle. Mm. That's okay. No terrible worry about that Steven. Right. That's okay. And er That's fine.. . See I've been getting a kind of rash on my face Mhm. Right. even see it now, there. Yeah. You can see it quite clearly. And you're Can you? getting it on your forehead Aye. as well. Aye. . Aye. see like, see like some kind of spots for the past few Yeah. months and it's it's annoying me . Right. I mean I got that one, see it? Yes. Aye. And it's gone away yet, I mean that's been there about three we about three weeks. Right . Now, once you've, once you've finished this penicillin stuff the hospital have given you, Mm. I want you to go onto this. It's a tablet that you take, one in the morning and one before you go to bed at night. Mhm. And that's for your er for your skin. And that'll give it a good help.. So am I to take that with Not while you're the penicillin? not while you're taking the penicillin. Just finish the penicillin first? Finish your penicillin first Steven and then Mm. Take that. and then start on this stuff. Is that for my skin? This is for your skin. Right. Ah cos th m people won't my skin about . Aye. That's rubbish . You know what I mean? That's rubbish. Don't listen to half of what they say . And my, my granddad was telling me to see my eyes. Mhm. Mm. Eyes. Now I know I went to a sp a specialist and that I mean it just keeps on coming back you know, maybe I'll That's right. Aye. just have to keep on . Aye. No. That's part of the skin problem as well. Is it? Aye. That's part of the skin problem. Is it really? Once you get started on this It should? it'll die away as well. Oh, that's good cos . No problem. No terrible problem there, Steven. But don't mix these with your penicillin. Right. Finish your penicillin first and then and then go penicillin first. on to that. Right. And that'll get it sorted and come back up Aye I'll I'll put appointment just in case you know Mhm. what I mean? Yes. For next week. Aye. ev even with your skin. I mean don't be frightened to come back and see us about that Aye. because it can last for anything up to six months. This spots Aye. on your skin. So I mean Aha. y you might need a wee these tablets Again. maybe two or three times again. And if you do, don't be frightened to come back. Right. Okay, Steven. No bother. Right. We'll see how things are doing next week. Right. Right. Thanks Doctor . Right. Cheerio now. Cheerio. Tape two Friday the fourteenth of January nineteen ninety four for Coobie Garragan Packard discussing a work assignment in entitled registers of English describe the register of use language the noise was a dog. Using as a source of data three texts from different newspapers published on the same day looking at equivalent reca reports in the same news story or editorials, finding one text similar in topic as a basis for comparison. Identify and discuss language features that are distinctive of the register of the newspapers, I E features common in all three newspaper articles but infrequent or non-existent in the non-use paper shapes the language features if any that distinguish the three newspaper articles from each other with emphasis on vocabulary, adjectives erm and bias and the essay title the essay length between three thousand five hundred words and our purpose in discussing this tonight as professional communicators is to help a mature overseas student of English. We don't, we don't. We don't, we don't. Put him down now. Put him down now, he'll be alright. Put him down and I'll see if it works. It's not that I get reasonably excited it'll be okay. Right, how do we start? If I were you I'd put the earphones in. Yes. If you put the earphones in can we just test first of all what's working? Yeah That's right. Could we go round the room, Susan could you say a sentence. As long as I don't get too excitable we'll be okay. Yeah, you're perfect, you're loud and clear, so am I. So's can you hear Tukuse? Yes, erm I hope Tukuse the only one where you move the choker or if you speak up just a little bit. A little bit louder. Okay erm Perfect that's okay. Everybody still hears? Yeah Anne, yeah. Can you hear me? Yeah and I can hear myself. Right that's it. Right. Would you explain to us what subject you've chosen Mhm. and why you chose it Yes. and which newspapers you think, even if you haven't made a final decision Mhm. that you may consider using for your essay? Okay erm this is just I think this is er what we call coincidence or just er unplanned or unpredicted er event or happening one maybe one evening maybe I thought it was Friday evening, one Friday evening December er Mrs was watching television it was erm but normally she didn't watch television at that time, but just coincidence? No, I have been told that Er she watched six o'clock news seven o'clock? Six o'clock news erm And seven o'clock and nine yes, but normally she doesn't watch erm six o'clock news because she's cooking at six o'clock or seven o'clock. So she watched television and erm Princess Diana erm said something shocking at lunchtime at a luncheon party or lunch party and erm maybe just erm ten days before that Princess Diana's announcement we were told by the Register Teacher that we will have an assignment of in February and we will compare some newspapers articles and maybe she didn't explain very erm specifically but she just gave us erm the brief information about er register assignment in February and she told us that we should er we should collect some newspapers about the same title was about the same topic and ho we should compare how each newspaper treated, treats the er news or what do you call that? Well the news item the story, the story. Yes, the story erm so erm Mrs and I thought this will be a very exciting project if I collect the newspaper articles about Princess Diana shocking announcement. So the next day it was Sa Saturday er Saturday morning we went to Jameson er can I call that that shop? Yes Jameson yes, yes Okay Jameson er Bookshop in George Street and we bought six newspapers tabloid, three tabloid or er three sheet. Yes. Broadsheet. Yes and during the winter holidays I cut er cut the articles and I now, I, you can see the articles I cut during the holidays. Peter, would you like to talk about language register in tabloids and broadsheets? I'm just gonna see if I can find a clarity index. Okay. Erm I would imagine Tukuse that the the difference that you put in difference that you would get between the reportage, to use a French expression, of Princess Diana's abdication from public life was probably quite pronounced between say for example the Sun newspaper and the Independent newspaper I would imagine that the Independent newspaper probably didn't play in any great significance, it was probably on the front page, perhaps not with a picture but erm there was a couple of columns of report erm the Independent is famous as being the newspaper which when Prince Charles and Lady Diana got married many years ago, they reported it with a single paragraph saying Prince Charles and Diana, the whole world went made at the Royal Wedding and the Independent had one paragraph, which many people, including myself, said right on. It was, it was, it was the right thing to do. They, I think like everybody else were succumbed to the fact that readers do like to know what's going on in the Royal Family. The other end of the scale the erm Sun gets much of its editorial exclusives and material often running to five or six pages erm by covering the Royal Family erm in terms of language in that in the language used, the Sun erm tends to adopt a very simple writing style of one adjective erm sorry one verb and a number of adjectives with a couple of nouns, tends to be sentence went off around ten to twelve words and the design is also quite interesting because they like to sort of leave things out so you have a paragraph in normal type and then a paragraph in bold with big splodges next to it to highlight it. I think the idea is that Sun is that they see it as somebody's gone poof poof want to be to write quickly and they would argue that a Sun reader has a sharp attention span. My own view that Sun readers aren't stupid and that the general public isn't really a stupid erm but erm they enjoy reading it and they're reading for the experience of reading, getting their views and are very almost like, have you ever seen processed cheese slabs, you know you can buy little pieces of cheese in little wrappers that stick on your bread or your butter or your rolls and the way the Sun, the Sun newspaper's kind of like that, if you don't wanna read thirty five pages in the Independent every day, enormous amount of news terrifically written, reported for the, for the most part, you could read the Sun at a quarter of the price,except that you don't get all the news and you also get er a different political viewpoint but it's one way of getting news in er But very often I think tabloid journalism is interesting in terms of language because it's very punchy it's succinct because i i in some of our terms you might find people into a three minute reader and a thirty minute reader because in attention span and intellectual capacity are quite different but to actually condense something into meaningful short bursts, even if they are politically biased actually requires a certain amount of skill I would suspect the clarity index which I can't find is the process that I mentioned the other night where you take erm some people call it the fog index a correct me if I'm wrong in my figures, but I think it's a piece of something like two hundred or three hundred words you count the number of suc erm colons and full stops or is it only full stops? Full stops. Full stops. You then count the number of words of more than two syllables Mm. and then you do a division of the one into the other and you get a figure that is smaller in the tabloids and larger in broadsheets like The Times and The Financial Times and in periodicals like the Communist and the New Statesman. And it it it's called the fog index but the thing that's interesting about it is that I've got, I've got some interesting examples of fog indexes erm and you'll get people like Churchill who sometimes made speeches and their fog index is quite small you're going to use this you know example and they might have a fog, fog index that's fine and what Anne and I are talking about with say something like the Telegraph or the Times or whatever, might have a fog index that people but this is because Churchill was very clear, very concise and going back to the original point about, or some of the original points about this, and I was mak raising these issues earlier this evening one of the great sadnesses that I have is that, is that when I first went into journalism the tabloids as we call them were incredibly well written beautifully styled, well researched and okay they might have been punchier and shorter and everything else, compared to the turning up the er the, the Times or whatever, but they were well written and you might have had, if you can put the fog index test, test on it you might have had a fog index of say six or seven compared to eleven on the Telegraph story, but it was still full of clarity like to read. Over the last twenty years or so, one of the things that's slipped has been those kind of things and I believe and Peter may disagree with me, but a lot of the have been because of the commercial fact that the thing that is now driving the newspapers more than anything else is, is the advertising and advertising revenues and that drives the style of newspapers and stories that are written. I suppose one of the things I use to demonstrate it most clearly is that for many years I s I gave lectures on communications and one of the things I used to say in those lectures was I did not know, and I was stressing that sense what came first if newspapers write stories in a particular way, because that is what the public wanted or do public want a particular type of story and that's that newspapers round-up and I stopped posing that question when Rupert Murdoch bought the Melbourne Sun because Rupert Murdoch bought the Melbourne Sun and introduced a lot of sex-type stories you know stories about brothels and madames whipping people and goodness knows what else and the sales rocketed and there we had almost a captive example of change in the design of change in the type of stories that were written and people, people were buying it and so you have an issue of you know that your content was actually being by what your readership wanted. So that answers all those years that I have been conducting these seminars, it answers my question not in the way I was particularly happy about I have to say, but I mean it did answer my question and then it may be them having you know I mean like sort of things I may not be particularly happy with, but maybe it is good that the papers are reflecting what the community wants. Maybe my unhappiness is more about wants But in a sense I mean I can erm I mean I agree with everything you've said, erm but er when Murdoch took over the Sun I mean the Sun was selling, at one point was selling about four million copies which is Someone else Melbourne Okay, yeah I, I, I, I appreciate that, but I mean I would erm basically say that the less Melbourne Sun. Well probably, not that he went and it would of we subsequently we apply much to the U K erm to know anyway. But I mean I, I, I'm I'm guessing, I'm assuming, I'm not sure he did, but I have seen erm when I was in Edinburgh studying communications, if you work in the Sun which was erm a broadsheet for Murdoch on it. Yeah and we've seen some different erm they had I think it was actually waiver paper as well when Murdoch bought it, and for a while he honoured the political content and then he decided he was gonna do major changes, and this may all sound familiar to you but erm the effect that that had I mean not only on the, on the, on the end up being this side, but also on erm the Mirror because it meant that Page Three Girls were in on the Daily Record in Scotland erm it was, it was quite profound I mean there's a broader argument here as to whether you you should get pampered to those possible denominator to taste erm it's interesting that the Daily Sport and the Sunday Sport which are two I don't know if they have anything like it in Japan, but they're a bit like the National Enquirer erm it's all made up baseball there's a sad proportion of erm journalist stories of fantasy land stuff erm along with erm photographic content and er copy content which probably It's fiction not fact verges on the sort of porn as well yeah. I mean like I saw a double-decker bus on the moon and that sort of stuff. Mm. You know an and I met Elvis at the chip shop and that stuff, I mean it's Anyway it's fiction. Anyway it's fiction erm basically I mean for me there's two issues, one do you pamper to the worst possible taste erm and two erm is the Sun the face of newspapers to come er It's that one. I mean But newspapers essentially are Four million copies of that I mean that makes it I think most popular with newspapers I mean I mean I, I was quite fascinated having lunch one day with a journ a Melbourne journalist erm and this was about six months after Murdoch had taken over the Melbourne Sun all this and we were chatting away and I actually threw in the stuff which were saying about how papers are there to make profits these days so that's what drives them and that journalists journalists on newspapers such as Murdoch's papers, write what they're supposed to write and she and I got quite out of with one another and and the bottom liner was that she, she absolutely totally and utterly denied what we were saying and I said to her okay if you were given a story to write you know and it was opposite to how you would view it, what would you do and she said oh well I, I would have to write it and the issue with the Murdoch papers and it's quite interesting because I mean I'm sure you can with other newspapers but I, I've just got a bit more is that Murdoch never ever writes a minute or a memo to his editor or staff saying this is what the line is ever. He never writes a memo saying you know we are supporting or attacking this government as about this election campaign, never, but journalists know what his view is and they write in a code with that view and if they didn't they would quickly find out where they should be and it would not be working for one of those newspapers and the thing that's quite perverse about it is the . First of all he will have one newspaper running one line and another newspaper running another This is something that's quite fascinating they came over Today's We have two quite different publications That is owned by the same stable if you like, it's a publisher and it's the Sun. Oh I think I am right in saying. Yeah er if you, what was on tonight was er on the, there was a T V programme on tonight called What the Papers Say and the editor Alistaire Campbell was on tonight, he is actually quite left-wing and this paper will, is actually quite vehement about the government, much more than the Sun would ever be, it's quite interesting, yet that is owned by Murdoch, but I have to say that I think that is only because Murdoch isn't liked in that way since to have about Murdoch the Australian inverted commas because that his, he was, I mean when I first, I, I don't know the man but when I first knew about him in Australia he was a he supported the Labour government's election in in Australia. What has happened with him since, since he became more of a big newspaper owner, is he shifted from that and he has been known to support a Labour government in Australia and a Tory government in Britain at the same time and George Bush in the United States while supporting Keating or Bob Hawk in Australia. I mean he's been known to do that because he you know what is going to happen with him commercially in his newspapers and he's actually very clever and I mean none of us I mean okay and I think Peter might be the but I can get quite upset or intense or distressed or whatever the word is about that sort of stuff, because I am my background is journalism and I'm quite pure about it, but we're living in reality times here and the reality times is that he has got certain agendas. He's not Robinson Crusoe, there are other old newspaper owners so he will say okay the government in Australia is doing what I like, therefore my newspapers or usually most of my newspapers, in fact one or two of them won't, will support that government and that government can be totally different one in the United States where in the Washington Post or you know in the New York Post or whatever will go and attack or support because he thinks it's in the less interest that his commercial interest and the U S because he sees us doing the same thing there. You go to Singapore where he has interests, you go to Hungary where he has interests, you go to different parts of the Europe where has interests and then you go to Britain where he has interests and you can and so what we're talking about here really I mean that's we're talking here of commercial interest. You see we're not talking of newspapers as we probably traditionally known, we're talking commercial interest. The language register of the broadsheets will be more sedate, more steady. It may be highly critical that the actual language will be completely different in the register. Yes. The tabloids will go for brevity and sensationalism. They will go for vocabulary which is highly charged with imagery and emotion. Mm. The others will chip in if they agree, but they will they are, they are wanting to set a missile to move, they're wanting to send a bullet, they are wanting to s to evoke emotion or anger or rage or frustration or political bias or to change attitudes now for example the interesting thing about the Princess Diana erm the headline on one of those tabloids which talks about exile is I suspect that they want to evoke the constitutional crisis which there was at the time of Edward. Edward and Wallace Simpson, because Edward abdicated in order to marry a divorced American and so they then went to live in exile and he was eventually, after he died he was buried in Britain, but Wallace Simpson, or the Duchess of Windsor or as she then was Did she get divorced? She did. Mm. funeral There was a special dispensation given to her to attend and in fact there were photographs at the time with the Queen with her. Yes. But I mean it was the story to run that while sh the Queen was with her it was a it was not war erm I mean a, a, a whole part of story like Do you think that's reasonable about the ex the use of the word exile? I think I Absolutely to reach the historical crises some some extra layers on this, I mean I think that's very valid and the extra layers include er one, the fact that since then there have been a number of royals who have divorced and so it is not unique for royals to be divorced and the Church of England has not jumped up and down about the fact that there are royals who are divorced particularly given that the, you know the Church of England are opposed to divorce. The second issue is the fact that Charles is the head Church of England. This is a really major issue, because I mean he, there would be a situation where the person who would be Head of the Church of England would be a divorcee of a church which does not believe in divorce. And divorce is or sorry, remarriage is not allowed for members of the Anglican Church. How about divorce? They er well I think constitutionally it's very difficult and this is why there is now in a similar sense as why I suggested it to you as a subject, because not only it was er a very emotional story of a glamorous young woman saying I can't cope with being treated by the media and other people, I'm going to retreat but what made it so historic and therefore the treatment of it's so interesting, was that it presented such an extraordinary constitutional position That's right for us here in Britain. because as long as they don't divorce, theoretically when Charles becomes King his queen and therefore you can have a situation where, I mean if the Queen is there for another twenty years say, say the situation in twenty years time where you have king on throne and a queen who have not lived together for thirty years or whatever years and you know still playing out this The other interesting thing you would find about vocabulary and treatment between the tabloids and the Independent is the Independent has a policy of very little coverage of the Royal Family and I suspect that other than a paragraph or a sentence or two of introduction, that those four paragraphs at the foot of the page are simply the text of her speech courtiers and media blamed as the Princess retreats from public life, I suspect that you will find that that is not a story, it is simply a statement of fact and an actual reprint of the text of her speech. I think you will find there are no observation, no overtones, no emotion, no judgment. What happens with the language about the rest of these is that they are making judgments Yes, that's right but though I mean there are a couple of additional issues to that and that is that the the tabloid are pandering, is that the right word pandering to their collective view of what the Royal Family should be, a view that is probably wrong. they're pandering to ghoulish voyeurism. Well there's that I mean there's all, there's a whole range of things, there's ghoulish voyeurism right, I mean that that's important, there's also the way the Royals have been peddled by the media over the decades and the fact that you know this has been how they've been tendered this is what they actually are and that y you, you know what I'm saying that erm or whatever it is between this is what they are, this is what we've been and they don't match, they really don't match. I mean sexy little telephone calls between he who will be king and his, is she a mistress, is she a girlfriend, is she merely a friend, but at any event she's married and her husband's in the next bedroom as far as we can gather, you know erm do those kind of conversations and would, I mean maybe it's important to sort of say and Anne probably has this, but Peter might not, I mean when I grew up the Royal Family were a cert sort of image and you might have known about George the Third who was mad, I mean who else was brought up George the Third was mad and Geor an and this guy was a, a drunk and this guy was a a womaniser, this guy was this, but Victoria you know mourned for sixty years or whatever it was, but this Royal Family, I E the, the Royal Family with which I grew up and Anne did were really sweet nice little Windsors who behaved themselves and that was what was, went into our psychic and there was the odd crack about Phil the Great who's the Queen's husband, you know and how he perhaps had an eye for the ladies, but there was never any photographs of him being or any evidence that it might have gone further than that particular and basically there was, that any, there was the fact that he was a sailor when he married the Queen anyway so all sailors are like that aren't they! But then here we are twenty thirty years on and those of us who had that upbringing about the purity of that Royal Family that's suddenly been confronted with this image that's anything but that and you know and I'm, and I, and it's been and now you have the tabloids saying giving you pictorial evidence of its any, any but that and so that whole erm image, view that a lot of Britons grew up with has gone, it's been But, but, but the whole social and cultural revolution evolution change has led I think to whole different schisms in the press which perhaps may have existed in some of the very one might almost say near communist publication like the Daily Worker. Daily Worker whereas the now the immediacy of telecommunications and the immediacy of print Mm are that this is transmitted throughout the world within minutes of being spoken so you have the monarchy which has tried to make itself populist, has actually made its language much more populist. If you listen sometimes to speeches made by the Royal Family now, they are not necessarily to my mind and er this is this difficulty of the sort of humanity and effemininity of the Duchess of York and the Princess of Wales who tried I think, both of them, to do a phenomenal amount of public work with different levels of success and different levels of coverage. Don't agree I think er But oh Peter's been a a a all, all for self-indulgence to create their own image for their own purpose. I think they had a jolly good time at the taxpayer's expense, I but I won't be It's But I think I mean I think that So they have they have in fact embarked on a course which now lets these newspapers really deliver them up on a plate I mean they can fry them, they can bake them, they can grill them, they can roast them because they've put themselves in a position where they now deserve the criticism and the level of imagery which they're getting. For example if you go back to say Queen Victoria and Queen Mary and one of my former bosses was a godchild of Queen Mary and I mean he simply said to me talking not long ago about one of the nobody i people didn't behave like that at court so they've really asked for everything they've got. I think there's probably a strong view about that. I mean it's interesting I mean I, I made all those comments earlier about and I mean Peter he might disagree with them, but what I think is how we view the Royals as we were all growing up. But if my kid comes off a pedestal, the language comes off the pedestal too. Absolutely now I mean i i it's interesting for women because I suppose in Australia I was a Republican and here I suppose I thought I saw about two erm now for me to have used that word thirty years ago I would possibly have been locked in the garden shed and left without food and drink erm I suspect a few members of family To be a social worker was shit yeah. That's right. You'd be there six o'clock gone mate. Wonderful. I suspect now that you know I mean I they might still to move given to one or two of my family members, but basically I could more openly say you know that in fact I suppose my view in Britain but not in Australia but my view in Britain is okay, the Royal Family could continue to exist they must A pay taxes B I don't genuflect to any of them and C we've gotta put them in perspective they're in which is they're a tourist attraction erm you know but I and I can make those comments which would be met by a lot of Britons with hostility, people who would totally disagree with me and say well they are the Royals and you know bow, bow, bow, but others would agree with me and that is something that has changed over the last three decades it really has, it's changed during, during my absence in Australia, it is something you know that I came back to and I mean I kept, I've been back about three or four weeks and there's a pro I mean there's some delightful radio programmes here comedy, political comedy shows and there was one show I listened to and I had been back a couple of weeks and it was about erm the Queen had a P R issue and she had to sort of do something about it, so she decided they'd have a public execution of Edward and they described Edward was a cream puff and they the Queen and and er Andrew and everybody else was on the balcony at er Buck House and the crowds are cheering and the rolled and the the execution. Now I cannot concede that programme going on the air when I was to Melbourne. Cannot concede that it had been possible and neither will shift in how we communicate and view the place of the Royals in our society and what the are and how those P R shifts a phrase in terms of let's make ourselves more public, let's make ourselves more accessible, have resulted in that because their very their very accessibility is the those kind of radio programmes to happen. It just wouldn't have happened I mean But I wa I was shocked. I listened to it I was shocked, not because of the content, but because of the happening of it and the realization of how Britain had changed. You see one of the other interesting things is that there is a essentially a tradition in this country that the Royal Family do not sue newspapers Yes. for libel. There are various exceptions erm and there have been two or three in recent years, but it therefore meant that they were fair game for saying anything so they were fair game for a very sensational headline because there was very little chance of recrimination. Mm. Now the view er was that they were dignified and above taking action and also in the sense that the public was credited I think with more sense than to believe everything and that the public memory is relatively short and therefore if you start a court action and you then have coverage in the court action, you are merely making the thing worse erm sometimes the things that some people may have thought were highly actionable one day, become almost a joke and something of affection later on and you can, one of the classics maybe is about the Prince of Wales talking to his plants, now that a national joke and he will make jokes about it in speeches Mm. and it's become of the exchange of, of, of talk and of media erm but what else do we say about language register and vocabulary? Length of words Oh yes. Erm You mean so w Shorter Yeah, not physical length of words. Now in a sentence in the Independent and the Times and other periodicals you would find there are more words of three and four syllables than in the tabloids, but that gets back to the clarity index again. That's right But it's not just necessarily the number that there are, it a it's the whole type of vocabulary, the whole register. Also I think you'd find that the erm er although, now I'm suggesting you do this, but if you went through the Independent and you counted the erm number of different words the total vocabulary, I think you'd find it's many many many many many many many times bigger than the That's right I'm not sure, but I think when I studied this in college I think it was something like the average of producers of vocabulary of less than two thousand words. Mm. So if you have sorry. Er we're talking nineteen eighty, eighty two I was there so it ten year ten fourteen years. Do you think it would be greater now? No, no actually no, not at all. Erm the reason I'm asking is because I suspect it would have been greater at the time I was talking about all the ago though. I think that that is, is something that you know we looked at the you know the Mirror that you know while thirty years ago they were doing short punchy stories and they maintained that, that there was actually A wider range of vocabulary a wider range of vocabulary and, and, and a greater intellectual depth to it and you know I'm, I, I, I actually almost feel tempted to to get some of the files out and look and make sure I'm not wrong if you, you know what I mean? It would be quite interesting I mean I think I mean I think you'll find that erm that there was an amaz you know I mean that, that while the language might have been simple it wasn't simplistic and, but the change in a in a way now is around. Yeah. Do you know, do you know, am I being clear about that? Yeah Yes But there are, we've got, I've got three books for you to, to look at for you to do with your project and I might try and find you one or two sentences and references. One, the good, bad the the good, the bad and the unacceptable. Mhm. One called shock horror and the tabloids in action and one called power without responsibility because I think you could perhaps make in fact the, the taste that in terms of circulation the tabloids actually have the power to influence significantly to in int influence public attitudes so but how they exercise that power is without responsibility. The other thing there is the evidence from the Law Society in England to the committee appointed by the government to look into the question of press self-regulation which has quite a lot to do obviously with privacy for everybody, but also refers to privacy of the Royal Family, public figures. There is a question as to whether public life, she'd be treated differently erm and also whether in fact journalist by not being able to do things that other people can do if they're not writing a newspaper. Does that help you do you think? Any questions you want to ask us? Erm so far I don't. Well Peter was doing a thing about counting words. These are just, are just For for fourteen er years ago when I studied erm communications at one of the things he said was the Sun paragraph would be short short of twenty words, whereas the tabloids would probably qualities they er full size papers would probably be longer, but interestingly enough the this introduction the introduction of the story about Princess Diana in the Sun is the same length as introduction about the story of Princess Diana in the Independent. Same way, one of the words about I mean I'll just read it to you. See if you can tell which one is which, it's an interesting test. The Princess of Wales yesterday dramatically announced the curtailing of her official duties, widely interpreted as but with complete withdrawal from public I would say that was in the Independent. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah it is this is how the Sun did it. How does the Sun do it? Close to tears and her voice quaking with emotion Excuse me I have to say Princess Diana yesterday stunned the world announcing that she is to quit public life . I have to admit I quite like this that's punchy, that's punchy, straight to the point and I think er you know it's quaking with emotion . Can you say the Independent's for? They are they, they, they are, they're more, they're a more authoritative newspaper erm the Sun has more passion more information I mean this is, I mean this is part of what I was talk mythology I mean we're talking about the index survey so when I raised the example of Churchill and the Churchill ex example is, was a good one because I mean he was an intellectual in his way, you know I mean he was a big bright cookie and but his was in terms of word count because he had a use of words for the way he used his words was how ordinary people would understand him I mean if you go back to you know we will fight them on the beaches and everything else I mean you think of the number of syllables he used in those words etcetera, etcetera I mean that's sort of what I'm getting to I mean he had his sharp succinct approach you know Yes he had I think he had an intuition and an instinct and a feel for the common man. He would have made he would have made a good Sun journalist. The man, the man who's the man or the man in the street and he had that empathy which allowed him to And, and I mean I, I, I'm making I'm mak I'm deliberately making these points because he is viewed as someone who perhaps wouldn't have been a Sun type but more of a, a Telegraph type or whatever, but when you've analyzed his, his words and his speeches and everything else in terms of what we're talking about the tabloids or broadsheets or whatever, you know he would, his language would have fitted in more neatly to the tabloid style than the the Telegraph style. I think it's a very wonderful thing I mean I regard him as a warmonger World War Two by his eighteen month should have been Good morning ladies and gentlemen. I think it's slightly after the witching hour, so that I think we should begin. May I first welcome you all here. It's very good to see you, and er, I hope the day will be fruitful for all of us. Can I begin by making er er couple of apologies. Our Chairman. Geoffrey is recuperating from er er an operation on his back, and Barbara , although not here this morning, hopefully may well be here this afternoon, but she's been incapacitated by a fall which er, broke her leg. And I'm sure that er, you would wish me, er, hope they both get well very soon, as I say, Barbara hopefully will be here er, this afternoon. Erm, it's been an important year for us, and I think that, you may recall that last year we talked a bit about the Nathan report, and er, if you look at the Directors er, report, you will see that quite a lot of the work that we talked about and was in the Nathan report, is now under way, and I think it's very important. Er, our importance has er, frankly now been recognised by the Prime Minister, who talked about the voluntary organisations not very long ago and referred to us as cement, which holds society together, and I think if that's right, and hopefully, the government may take a bit more notice of us. Erm, because of the Nathan reports, I mentioned to you last year, we're going to have to raise more money than we thought sometime ago. And, I'd like to say that er, Diana er er, has been extremely helpful, and I've given her a bit of he aid, in trying to raise that kind of money. As you know our er Director left er, in the middle of the year. Usha, and er I'd like, on your behalf, to thank you for all she did, and to wish her well in whatever else she decides to do. Er, we have in her place, Judy, whose sitting here and I know that every official, and I hope yourselves, will give her all the support that she will need in this job and to say to her, your very welcome, and I know we're going to enjoy having you with us. Erm, may I just say, that you may recall, that at the nineteen eighty-eight A G M, we agreed that they'd be no smoking here, er, and I hope that er er, can be adhered to, er, and finally er, I have a fairly full agenda, and the officials have have sort of er, measured it to the nearest minute. Why allowed three minutes for, but I might extend that to three and a quarter, I think, if the time goes well. Well now, you've had the Minutes of the last A G M meeting, that blue copy, and may I take it that er you accept those, and we can agree that they are accepted. Thank you very much, that's very helpful to me. Thank you. Now we come to resolution one, which is the Annual Report, the Accounts, and the Auditors, and although Geoffrey is not here, er, we've done a video of him, which is now about to be shown, who will introduce er this, and I just like to say, that this has been sponsor the cost of it has been sponsored by the Shell International Petroleum Company, to whom we are very grateful if my head pops up and obscures some of the shout down, will you may I add my own very warm welcome to The absence of one ordinary officer at the Annual General Meeting may appear a misfortune, of two carelessness, but may I assure you, that we are with you in spirit, that the loss is ours alone, and that the proceedings will be conducted with their usual expedition and efficiency, despite, and I hope no one said before our absence from. The year has been one of change, of achievement, and of challenge. We have seen most notably in left us to be succeeded by . For the clarity of in dealing with the a particular contribution has laid in developing the relationship between the sector and Government And as for the ensuing year, and that they be paid for the services, a sum to be determined by the N C V O Executive Committee. Thank you. Thank you very much indeed. I can now ask er Geoffrey to second the motion, please. Good morning, erm, do I need to switch something on, oh, it's working now. Good morning, I must say, I I stand before you today somewhat nervous, because erm, this is, this is my first to you as Treasurer, but this will be a slightly different speech from one's that I have given in previous years. Treasurers suffer the erm, the occupational hazard that they always, to some extent, have to cry wolf. They have to advise caution in the use of finance. They have to judge quite carefully the extent to which they should er, advise the caution, because if they advise too much caution, then erm, er people will er, restrain themselves and then perhaps if things aren't really bad, no longer believe the Treasurer. If they too much caution, then erm, if they advise too little caution, then then things can run away with themselves. So in the past few years, I have given a speech which has has drawn attention to the the deficit on our General Fund and our need for continued care, to reduce the deficit. Erm, some years ago, the Executive Committee set us the target of reducing our deficit to nil, and reducing the deficit to nil by the year ninety-one, ninety-two. I have to say, that the the year wo I that I'm reporting on now, nineteen ninety, ninety-one was actually better than we had originally planned and expected, and in fact, that we did eliminate the deficit in that year. If you look at the accounts, you will see that they record a deficit on the general fund of a hundred and twenty-three thousand, but if you deal, if you delve more carefully in the accounts, more closely, you will find, in fact, that the the money we raised on the appeal fund was greater than that deficit shown on the general fund, and so in fact, our income during the year, was greater than our expenditure, and we have achieved a small surplus. It was achieved, erm, through reorganisation, it was achieved through careful planning of expenditure, but there was also an element of of luck in that erm, the staff vacancy level that we had pending the reorganisation, was was higher than we had had planned for. But nevertheless, I think it is a substantial achievement, er and it reflects well on on our former Director and it reflects well on our staff, that it has been made. Th there are also now, prospects for a modest surplus in the current financial year, and our projections show that zero deficit is achievable in the the future years, with a continued drive for care in expenditure and for the rising of income. But I I would slip back to my normal gloomy cautious self, and say that we do need to balance the years of deficit we have had, with years of surplus, we need to look at N C V O's finances over a longer term, than simply one year. We need to take the deficit years, with the surplus years, and so, simply because we have a surplus, it doesn't mean to say we can go out and start spending. We do need to continue to control our expenditure and to be careful about raising income and where appropriate charging for services. One area where the accounts do show some growth, though, is in special projects. There there was a very substantial increase in ninet ninety ninety-one, and I'm happy to say that, all but two of those projects have been fully funded by sponsors, and in fact, our policy now, and this is operated from the the first of April this year, is that all projects shall be fully funded by sponsors, and that includes a contribution to the overheads that erm, the projects incur. The market value of our investments rose to er, two point one million. There have been drawings on those investments, though, mainly, the the the main two have been to fund the redundancies associated with the reorganisation, and to grant a dowry to N A C V S, on its independence from the Council. Our investments now, all match er, the ethical investment policy which has been agreed by the Investment Panel. I would, by the way, like to thank the members of, of the Investment Panel, for the help and support they've given me, and also, in fact, to point out that erm, although s er, your your Chairman has spoken of Sir Ray severing his formal links with the Council, I have to say that we still do have one or two claws still attached to him, in that he remains on, as a very valued member of the Investment Panel, and will continue to provide his wisdom and advice, for which we are all very grateful. The progress towards our erm, compliance with our ethical investment policy though, has been achieved while considering the need to secure the best returns possible on our investment, and we have done it through a series of progressive sales of investments at the appropriate times according to the market conditions, and so I'm happy to say that we have been able to achieve both our responsibilities as trustees, our responsibility both to secure the best return on investment and, to to consider wider policy implications of our investment policy. I think I should point out, though, that erm, in the future, there will, we are planning some substantial drawings on our funds. Erm, firstly for office automation, to improve the effectiveness with which our staff can operate, and secondly, for the office accommodation itself. I think members will probably by now, be aware that a decision has been taken to leave the offices in Bedford Square where we have been for so many years. I don't think anyone will dispute that those are not offices suited to us in the nineties. There not offices best calculated to enable us to perform effectively. We have identified a new property which we can move to, and it is available to us, either to rent or to buy. Two years ago, when the prospect of moving was first raised, erm, I was very firmly of the opinion that we should continue to rent our offices, because I didn't believe that erm, we were a property speculation company. I believe that we are the National Council for Voluntary Organisations, in a very different business. I have to say though, that market conditions have changed very substantially in the last couple of years, and we now have an opportunity before us, which is one which is unlikely to recur again. We need to move, at the same time that the property market is in a substantial slump, and th are therefore offices available to us at a very very competitive price. And in fact, if we are able to negotiate a loan, to buy the new premises, we should be able to do so on terms which would enable our repayment of the loan to be comparable with what we are currently paying,an and would expect to pay in rent. So I hope, very much, that erm, at the end of the current financial year, I shall be able to give a even more optimistic erm, report, that not only have we brought the current account deficit under control, but that in fact, the organisation is in a much healthier financial position for the long term. And er, I think, I wo I would wish to extend my thanks to all the finance staff, er, particularly Ann in helping us to arrive at this position. So, in summing up then, I I feel slightly nervous that it is a different speech from the one I normally give, but I am confident, that we are now able to go forward, much more optimistically, based on a much stronger financial position. And I therefore second the the resolution one, for the adoption of the accounts. Well, thank you very much er, Geoffrey, erm that was a very full, and I think er, and as he says, cautious account of what's been happening, and he does remind me of all the finance officers that I've ever known, in this thing, I've never really seen, or rarely seen them smile. Er, which is probably a good thing. The ones that smile, incidentally, usually go the bankruptcy court, so I think we're in good shape here. Now, as I say, it's been a fairly full account, but just before I put er, er, the motion to you, are there any points, or questions you'd like to raise No, well, thank you very much. Er, we've read the resolution out to you, er, er, it's been appropriately proposed and seconded. May I ask, all those in favour, please, to show their hands those against. The resolution is carried. Thank you very much. Now we now come to resolution two, which is in effect the appointment of the, er Honorary Officers. I think you've all seen who they are, and, I don't propose to read those,un unless you think I should, but they're there, I think, on the er, papers that you've er received. So, may I ask, erm, er, where are we, I keep forgetting Andrea Oh yes, Andrea that's right. May I ask Andrea to er proposed the motion, please. Thank you,I shall do nothing further than read out erm, a list of all the officers who erm, President Vice President, the Right Honourable Dr Leslie Mr Peter , the Honourable Kenneth and Vice President Alan . Chairman,Vice Chair Honorary Treasurer I'm sure all of us, who are involved in the Executive Council of N C V O will recognised that Thank you very much Andrea. Er, now may I ask Mr Graham to second that motion, please. It would probably to appropriate for me to er second the motion in Welsh er, but as you're and neither the English Welsh I would just like to say a few things, one, to express the appreciation of my council for the and secondly, to Well, thank you very much. Er, well the names have been read out to you. And the motion is in effect to elect or to re-elect them. May I have all those in favour, please to show their hands. Thank you. Those against. The motion is carried. Now, we now come to er, the resolution, to er, Three. it's resolution er three, and it is to er er, in effect to er, er appoint the the Executive Committee, and I don't propose to read through all those, er er, but perhaps Tony can help me. Erm, all I need to say about these, I think, is that, where the statement er to be announced is, we'll give you the names. The only thing we can't do, is under Community Organisation Eight, to give you the name of the representative of organisation development. We haven't yet got that, but we will give it to you in due course. Er, we've got, well, The two under N A C V S, erm, Chair, are Christine and . Unfortunately we also now that Tim can't erm, fulfil the responsibilities in the planning and environment electoral college and Robert will take his place. Thank you very much. Er, can I ask now, er Mr Leslie to propose the resolution, please. Sorry, Chairman, I I er, I do beg your pardon. Mr Chairman, in his er, video to us, er drew attention to the, both the external and internal challenges which face us at the present time. It is essential that we should maintain both our sensitivity and our effectiveness, if we are to protect and watch over the interests of the people we work for and provide the kind of services they need. I think, therefore we are extremely fortunate, that so many people of distinction and talent are willing to give up time to serve on the Executive of the N C V O to work with the honourary officers and the Director and her team, to ensure that N C V O maintain such a central role in watching over our interests and in promoting the concerns of the people of this country, that we are all so active about. I would just like to say, record our thanks to those who are retiring, and to welcome most warmly those who have come forward to serve and to propose the list, er, last, but certainly not least, our warmest thanks to Bronwyn and her colleagues in the voluntary services unit, for their ongoing and invaluable support to N C V O er, throughout the years. Er, I have pleasure in proposing resolution three, I think you have absolved me, Chairman, from reading out all the names. Of course, thank you very much. Er, I must apologise again for what, er the way I addressed you, but of course with all these women equality er, movements going on, I never know whether its Mr, Mrs, or Ms. Erm, now I may call on Doctor Manchago to second the motion, please. We thought he might not quite make it in time. May I have a seconder, please, from the, er, audience for this. Now don't be shy. Thank you. What is, give us your name, please. Thank you. Thank you very much, indeed. Well, you've got the list of names and er, I think Mrs was quite right in asking not to read them all out. But er, we'd we obviously like your agreement to er to this very important er resolution. May I have a show of hands, from all those in favour, please. Thank you, anyone against. Well, thank you very much indeed, er, the resolution is er, carried. Erm, we're coming as it were to the end of the first part of the proceedings, er, but, I'd like to give a brief thanks to the er, C R group, that's the Charities Recruitment Group, for the part sponsorship of this A G M Conference. They gave us a thousand pound, that is really very important, I think, and we're most grateful. Erm, and that really is the end of, as it were, I beg your pardon, yes. Before you end,a few minutes, er, Mr President, I wonder if I can just say, er, that you may remember, this really is a matter arising, but you may remember that, at the last meeting, of, of, the Annual General Meeting of N C V O, er, my organisation, the National Federation of Community Organisations was was bold enough to propose a resolution other than, than those required, and it is in your Minutes, if you have them. I really just wanted to to record our appreciation erm, and I think those of others too. Er, for, for, what N C V O has done in the year. I'm not saying necessarily in response to that resolution, but at least in the direction that we were hoping. the resolution was about encouraging N C V O to give er,ad adequate and appropriate support and weight to the needs of small organisations, as well as the needs of larger charities and voluntary organisations. And it is our experience in a number of ways, that N C V O has over this last year, done that very thing, and I wanted just to record that, and I'm thinking particularly, but there are other examples, of the work on the charities bill, er, and the work that N C V O's doing in relation to the Windsor Group. Erm, and also er, the involv the work involving the training trustees working party. I'm sure there are other other examples, but I just really wanted to record that appreciation. Well thank you very much indeed, we er, appreciate that, and I'm sure the staff will appreciate it, thank you. Well, as I say, er the this part of the meeting is now formally ended, and I'm going to hand over to er Kay who will Chair the next session, er er which involves of course, as you've seen, presentations by the N C V O senior staff. Ca can I just say one thing, though, if you me nip out, it's not that I don't want to listen to this, er, it's in connection with the property er worries that er, Geoffrey said, I've got to sign a lot of er, arm twisting letters, which I, they want me to sign today, so if I can take five minutes out to sign those, I hope you will not feel I'm trying to er skive off, as it were. Sue Thank you, Thank you. You may now begin. I may now begin, good. My sex is determined. Well, good morning again, and welcome ladies and gentlemen, members of Council, colleagues and friends. We now come to the second part of our programme, according to our agenda, which has the broad heading,Achiev N C V O Achievements and Intentions, and it's obviously a natural follow-on from the I er, A G M which we have just completed, at which council received the annual report of N C V O's work for the past year, and its use of the resources which are available to it to carry out that work. We now, I think er, going to hear from members of the Management Team, more detailed information on working progress and priority issues. Judy our new Director will lead her team, of Simon , Richard and To and er Tony and I think it seems particularly er, appropriate and important that Judy at her first appearance here as Director, although many of us present, I know, would remember her wearing other hats, should have this opportunity of speaking the Councillor members and giving us some idea of how the Management Team see the future before us in the years to come. Judy, you lead. Thank you very much. This is an exceedingly exciting time to be joining N C V O. I took over from at the beginning of September, nineteen ninety-one, with the reorganisation, thankfully fully, in place, and a clear strategic plan to fulfil our role as the voice of the voluntary sector. That's quite a daunting task. My job is to implement our mission, to promote a thriving and effective voluntary sector. By providing leadership, representation and support. In a nutshell, I see N C V O as something like, perhaps, the C B I of the voluntary sector. Well, we're here in this building, perhaps we have some differences, of course, we can't quite match the C B Is resources, but who knows. Through our membership we represent an enormous range of voluntary sector interests, and as you can see, from our electoral college headings, such as Education and Training, Employment and Leisure, Ethnic Minorities, Health and Disability, Income Maintenance and Poverty, Personal Family Services, Planning an Environment, women, you, professional learners society, public bodies trusts and foundations, my goodness what a list. What a diversity. It is gratifying to see the newly independent off-shoots of N C V O join the ranks of members, such as the national association, the council for voluntary services, the organisation development unit, and the black environment network. And also our most recent émigré, the WasteWatch, who are about to do so this year. N C V O has a proud record over the years, of developing and promoting new initiatives, to meet new needs, and to fill gaps in voluntary sector initiatives. Many of those which we have helped into independence are now household names, such as, Age Concern, National Association of Citizens' Advice Bureaux. However, the ranks are much more numerous as you can see. All are playing important parts in the voluntary sector. As I now personally from one of my previous lives in nineteen eighty-two, when I became the first Director of the newly independent National Federation of Community Organisations. Erm, but I didn't prime the previous speaker who spoke so nicely er, about N C V O even though we do seem to be in a mutual admiration society. N C V O will carry on with this vital role, and enriching and enlarging the dynamics of the voluntary sector. N C V O works in partnership with many other organisations. In the voluntary, commercial and statutory sectors. To achieve our goals, and of course, we work closely with our sister councils in Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales, and we put domestic issues in the wider European and International scene as well . Over the coming years, I want to see us widen and extend our membership and our networking incorporation with other charities even further. We need to improve the ways in which you are involved in N C V O's work, thus giving legitimacy to voice, and empowering N C V O and our members in the causes that we all care about. We care about the voluntary sectors independence, its innovation, its flexibility and its responsiveness to the needs of those without financial power. The manifesto which N C V O produced recently, articulate many of our concerns, and presses the Government and other political practi other political parties to make improvements to respond to your concerns. I have found an excellent team of people who are highly committed and motivated and who work for N C V O as honorary officers, of staff, as members of all the various committees and working groups, task forces, er, and think tanks, and any other name that we can think up to involve you. I am very proud to have this opportunity to work with all of you, to promote the uniqueness of the voluntary sector. Some areas of our work will be discussed in much greater detail in the seminars this afternoon. On charity and politics, on Europe, on communications, and on trustee training. These represent some of the major issues currently on our agenda. We believe that N C V O has a key role to play in involving the voluntary sector in representing your concerns. Some of the work we do supporting the voluntary sector and providing services will also be reflected in the stores and displays that we're making available over the lunch period. They cover our oral work, our advice services, our membership and affiliation services, and our publications. Now I am delighted to be able to hand over the spot-light to my three management colleagues on the management team. Tony in charge of services and communication, Simon in charge of policy and development, Richard in charge of resource development, and although it's not on the script and she said I mustn't to the script, I ought to mention also Samantha who has joined us as head of communications on whom, you may thank for all the sort of visuals that we're having, and the bright idea of videoing er, our Chairman. So I I look forward to her input as well to our image and our presentation. Thank you very much. Thank you very much Judy. We'll go straight through the presentations, and then there is an opportunity, obviously for you to ask questions or, and to join in generally discussion. So if I go straight over and invite Simon to address us next, please. It's great. Super. Morning. It is clear that er, one of N C V O principle functions is to act as the voice of the voluntary sector. Representing the interests and reflecting the concerns of voluntary organisations and charities throughout England. Of course, this does not mean that we're the only voice speaking up on behalf of the voluntary sector. Many voluntary organisations including numbers of our members, many present here today, will be speaking forcefully in the interests of particular groups within society with which they work. But it undoubtedly does fall to N C V O and rightly so, to take the responsibility of representing the interests of the sector on a range of general issues. If N C V O is to be able to fulfil this purpose effectively, we must be working closely with our members, and we must have their confidence and respect, and such confidence, of course, is a two way process. N C V O needs to be sharing its knowledge, its information and general resources with its members, and also needs to ensure that its work is firmly grounded in the experience and knowledge of the plethora of voluntary organisations and charities, with which contact is maintained on a regular basis. Now it seems to me, that er, the watch-word for our policy development work over the next few years, must be effective co-ordination with our members and the wider voluntary sector. Our principle function within the policy development department within N C V O must be to work with, and not simply for our member and the wider sector. Other constituencies, of course, are important. Central Government, local authorities, the academic communities and so on, they are undoubtedly important, but they are subsidiary to the interest of the sector itself. N C V O must therefore, draw together voluntary organisations effectively and be seen to be responsive and creative. There are many issues where a N C V O should be exercising leadership, sometimes a rather difficult concept, and there is no need to apologise for that, for using leadership at the right time, but it has to be a leadership by consent, rather than claimed without authority, and it is in this context that the policy development department in N C V O exists, to help channel voluntary sector concerns to opinion formers, and policy makers, regardless of party politics, regardless of political commitment. And following N C V O recent reorganisation, the policy development department broadly consists of the following. I thought it was useful to repeat this for other peoples information. Firstly we have an economic policy team. Concentrating its attention on central and local government funding, of the voluntary sector itself. The implications of the efficiency scrutiny review, training and employment, and fiscal issues. Secondly, we have now a grandiosely named, social and public policy team, which is valiantly covering charity law, local government structural changes, the right of duty of voluntary organisations to campaign, work with the new national forum on the environment and health and community care issues. Thirdly, our policy analysis and research team, takes responsibility for looking further ahead, and doing a lot of the initial thinking about both the challenges and the opportunities that will affect the sector domestically and internationally over the next few years. Additionally, the department covers parliamentary lobbying work, our European and international responsibilities. It supports the national self-help support centre and the waste-watch project. We all know that we have yet again a busy and exciting year in front of us. The new year sees the publication of changing Europe. This book will help readers to understand the single European market, not an easy thing in itself, and how it may affect voluntary organisations and users. Undoubtedly, N C V O existing work relating to the European Community and the voluntary sector has become ever more important, year by year. Already much work has been done on the impact of the single market on voluntary organisations. The implications of the moves towards greater E C integration for the sector, encouraging the development of effective networks, of voluntary organisations across the community as a whole, and building relationships with all the institutions, of the European Community to ensure that the interests of the voluntary sector in the United Kingdom are both maintained and arguable enhanced. We often claim for instance, that this country has a particularly unique and distinctive voluntary sector which is not matched elsewhere. If this is so, we need to be positive and confident about our experiences, and we should try to export our best attributes to others in the community. We will no doubt find, and again rightly so, that we have as much to learn from others, as to give. The Prime Minister's recent speech at the Charities Aid Foundation Conference, indicates that the Government is going to make the encouragement of voluntary sector across the er, community and in encouragement of voluntary activity, a principle focus of the U K Presidency of the community from July next year. That will give us many important opportunities which we must not let drop. N C V O has taken the initiative in putting up a number of ideas to the Prime Minister's and the Home Office, to make this commitment a meaningful one, and a constructive one for voluntary organisations in this country. We are also embarking on vitally important work on the new charity law legislation which has been referred to already, on local government legislation, in relation to both the structure of local government and the new council tax system. And only yesterday, at N C V O's annual lobby conference on the implications of the Queen's speech, we were talking with a number of our members about legislative priorities for the period, up to the forthcoming General Election, whenever that is. Finally, I can't finish without mentioning health and community care. The publication of the Government's Green Paper, health of the nation and all the work going on around the country, on the implementation programme for the community care reforms, means that N C V O must attempt to rebuild its own capacity, to undertake effective policy development work in these areas. We continue to support and chair the community care alliance of voluntary organisations, a very important development, in the last few years. Our director serves on one of the official Department of Health's steering groups, dealing with health of the nation and its implementation. We're also very hopeful that we will have some extra support and assistance in this field at N C V O within the near future. Now these, of course, are just a few of the areas that the N C V O's policy development work is intending to cover and will be concentrating on, in the year ahead. If we're to do this work effectively, er, then it has to be in conjunction with you. Therefore I come back to where I started. Working in conjunction effectively with you, our members, and it has to meet your needs and interests as well as our own, and I'm therefore looking forward to the possibility, in fact, the certainty of us having a year of achievement us for the interests of the voluntary sector. Thank you. Thank you very much, Simon. I now ask Richard to address, please. Thank you . Good morning. As well as addressing some of the major policy issues affecting the sector, N C V O also has an important role in helping voluntary organisations to do their job better. Voluntary organisations need practical advise on fund-raising, legal issues, accountancy, and many other aspects of their work. They also need to be able to manage their affairs effectively, and learn to develop constructive partnerships. It's the role of the resource development department, to ensure that they get the advise and help they need to do this, either from N C V O or from others. The department also has a specific interest in ensuring N C V O is sensitive to the needs of rural areas, and rural voluntary organisations. To help us develop a strategic approach to advise provision, we've embarked on a mapping exercise. This will involve a national survey early next year, funding by Thames Telethon and others, to establish where voluntary organisations currently get their advice from. What they think of current provision and what the main gaps are, both now and in the future, and the outcome will be a five year advice development strategy, which will be publishing to guide both N C V O and other providers and funders. One of the fastest growing interests in the voluntary sector is the environment. Yet most environmental groups are not currently plugged into existing sources of advice and do not have a tradition of working together. We therefore established a new three year environmental support project funded by the D O E and B P to address these concerns. Other important activities in our advice development team, include fund raising advice, increasing access to national vocational qualifications and running a short course programme which is the largest programme of its kind in the country. Advance in good management is the main theme of our management development team, as well as being the title of a new three year project we launched last year. Seven regional initiatives are now being funded with the help of the V S U, the Department of Trade and Industry, and a number of private sector funders, including British Telecom, Save and Prosper, B P and I B M. The lessons from these projects and others will be widely promoted. Earlier this year, we also established a joint working party with the charity commission on trustee training. With Winifred as Chair, and Diane as Vice Chair, the working party has received evidence from over fifty people, as well as conducting its own survey of trustees and management committees, with a tighter framework of regulation resulting from the charity bill, it will be more important than ever, that trustees are aware of their very considerable responsibilities, and well equipped to take them on. The working party will be publishing its report next April. Voluntary organisations need to work more and more in partnership with others. For their part, other sectors like local government, health authorities, civil servants, private companies and other agencies, also need advice on how to work with the voluntary sector. We already run the N C V O corporate affiliation scheme, which next year we plan to expand and develop, and we've just launched L A Link, a new subscription service for local authorities, providing advice and information on the development of partnership, and there's an exhibition about this in the concourse. Contracting is a particular form of relationship between the public and voluntary sectors, which is causing considerable concern amongst voluntary organisations. Recognising the importance of this issue, we've been able to develop a three year project, to provide training, advice, and information to voluntary groups, about how best to respond to the contract culture. This has been generously supported by the Department of Health, the Nuffield Foundation, Bearing Trust, Allied Dunbar and will be launching that early next year. Finally, the rural team in the Resource Development Department plays a vital role in ensuring all N C V O's work takes on board the rural dimension. Through promoting rural voluntary action and developing community care in rural areas, the rural team never let us forget that over twenty per cent of the population live in rural areas. This will be my last N C V O, A G M as a member of staff since I'm leaving at the end of January, to become Chief Executive of Arthritis Care. However, I'm very much looking forward to being a member of N C V O as well as being a consumer of its excellent services, and while I've got the the platform, I'd like to take this opportunity to wish Judy every success as Director of N C V O. I think she's got off to a marvellous start, and I'm sure that N C V O's gonna flourish under her leadership. Thank you. Thank you very much Richard. I shall resist the temptation to say all sorts of nice things about you at this point, because there would be other opportunities obviously. I'll ask Tony now to address us, please. take my watch madam Chairman, Oh, yes. Thank you, Kay. Good morning, everyone. It's perhaps fitting that the Services and Communication Department should bring up the rear in this group of presentations, because one of its key priorities is to provide a coherent professional support service to the organisation as a whole. This is reflected in in that of N C V O's three strategic objectives, which relates to improving its own operational effectiveness, and enhancing recognition of its role. Making sure N C V O's operation is fit for this task is a team of people who specialisms include, personnel, training, information and technology, communications, fund raising, finance, office management, and of course, the law. In looking back at the department's achievements, one has to accept that reorganisation which Judy and Simon have already referred to, has because of its sheer scale and impact on N C V O been something of an abiding preoccupation over the past twelve to eighteen months. The main work-load on programming, the implementation of change and steering through the necessary mass of procedures and consultation to successful conclusion has fallen to my department's team leaders, and in particular to Ruth in Personnel and training. In parallel with this, Ann has overseen the establishment of entirely new team budgeting processes, and Tracy has made sure that staff affected by chance have appropriate space and office facilities to do their jobs. It will be wrong however, to conclude that the department's role is entirely directed inwards towards N C V O effectiveness, vital though that is. Many members will be aware that the professional advice on which N C V O depends is also available to them, and other organisations, particularly in the areas of legal work, personnel, finance and office technology, we find there is a high demand for advice which we intend to continue to satisfy in the years ahead. As Richard has said earlier, this is an area on which strategic work will be undertaken in the next couple of years or so. A Business As Usual approach has also been maintained by N C V O Information and Technology team, under Joan . Despite the challenge a reshaping information services to meet the needs of the new teams, and outside users as well as developing a strategy for the completely overhaul of our office technology requirements. The implementation programme for which has now begun. I suppose one of the most fundamental changes brought about by reorganisation, though, was the creation of a team, which for the first time, consolidated into one management structure. All functions relating to enquiries, publicity, press, media, production, publishing and fund raising. Considerable work has been initiated through the medium of a communication strategy, and we're delighted that the loss of Amanda er, many of of you will know Amanda and will know where she's gone to. This, she left at a critical time. That's now been placed in proper context by the arrival of Samantha as Head of Communications, as Judy said earlier on, we're already beginning to enjoy the fruits of her skills, in the presentation surely you're seeing today. Looking more to the future now, again as Judy and other colleagues have implied, N C V O places high priority on increasing membership, supported by effective communications. Service development, and policy involvement. The Services and Communication Department looks forward to playing an important part in this, perhaps starting with the communications seminar this afternoon. Given alternative attractions this afternoon, though, we shall make sure this is not the only opportunity for members to contribute to the debate. Finally, you'll want to know the significance of the photograph behind me. The avid readers of the N C V O News will have spotted reference to the fact that we shall be moving offices from next June, and of course, the Treasurer had a fair bit to say about this earlier on. What you're looking at is a representation of a purpose built office of some twenty one thousand square feet, near King's Cross. It's currently nearing completion. I'm delighted now, to be able to inform members that terms have been agreed and the property's formally under offer and off the market. As many of you will know, from first hand experience, there are few things which have a greater impact on morale and productivity, than the working environment and associated facilities. We now have the challenge of a marvellous opportunity for the physical re-establishment of N C V O for years to come, in premises which will fully meet the needs both of its staff, and the wide range of visitors it attracts. One could quite probably say on this occasion. Watch this space. Thank you. Thank you very much, Tony. What a marvellously exciting point at which to leave us, as it were. We've now had, I think this very ex exciting very interesting wonderfully co-ordinated erm, overview, of the issues of the work done in the different areas. It's now over to you, this is your opportunity. Ask questions, make comments to enter into the discussion. If you would very kindly state your name and your organisation just for the record. Whose going to be the first. Is this a, is this a good feature to include on this day, while you're thinking about it. Is this a good idea, to have this kind of er, presentation to bring you up to date. Good. Well t well let's have. I'm gi I'm giving them time to think, you see. There's someone there. Ar, please. I just been in loads of workshops Leslie. this afternoon, but we won't all be in that workshop, sorry, just to have, perhaps Samantha, if you'd just say what of the new communications strategy, I think members ourselves, but in a sense it would be very useful to know what the others, perhaps we could take some of it back with us. Erm, thank you, Leslie. Erm, I understand that Samantha is actually outside at the moment waiting to meet Sir Leonard So er would I was only telling Tony Er, could we just er wait,sh he should be arriving in just five minutes, if we could come back to that a a later, could we? Perhaps I can say, that what I'd like to see is N C V O be much more corporate in the way it approaches things, erm, many of you will have seen many of our publications, but, you may not always realise they come from N C V O, sometimes it's not always easy to see that, you have to search through and, not always find it, and we've got many different images, so I think it's important we er get a whole corporate image across. But it's also important that we get our message across more effectively, and in that, that we're reflecting your views more effectively. So I think the communications department wanted to pull together all of these issues, and make sure that we hear your voice effectively, we represent it effectively and that, the sense in which N C V O comes over as an organisation is more appropriately presented and projected in all the many different spheres in which we're currently operating. I don't know if that meets, meets your point. Th erm, there's at at the back, please. Er, Mick counselling er, and it follows directly from what was said, erm, Judy has referred in her talk about the importance of communications with members, and I'm delighted to note, that erm, the Health and Disability Group, is to have a meeting in January to look at a variety of issues including the health work of N C V O. This is the first meeting for I think, two years, and if it new era in communications, I for one am delighted. Thank you, perhaps I can comment on that. I'm keen to see a real dialogue with our members, er, how we achieve that I don't know, we've got the most enormous diversity of membership as I mentioned in my speech, but the more that we can get a a good dialogue going, and certainly I used to be a member of Health and erm, Disability Group, and remember that it was a very useful meeting point, er, as well as a good arena for developing policy initiatives. So I hope that we will find ways of creatingl , creatively involving all of you, and perhaps that would be a good start, I hope so, anyway. Thank you very much Judy, er Simon or does any other member of the team. Do you wish to add to no, no. Per perhaps I can just say one point. Sometimes we're concerned as to whether N C V O is competing with its membership about what we do, and I know that a point has been raised on that, er, by somebody who I think is present today. We don't see ourselves. I want to see N C V O as co-operating. If you, as our members are doing something well, our role is to support you. If you're doing something well, but there are other areas that need to be filled in, our role is to compliment you. If many of you are doing something well, but you need to be brought together, our role is to co-ordinate you, and if you're not doing something and it needs doing, then our role is to initiate it. But all the time it is working with you, and not in competition with you. Thank you very much, erm, at the back, please. erm, I would certainly stand up and and and er share everyone's congratulations of what N C V O's done over the la past year, and certainly we've had an enormous amount of help, particularly from the rural. But, I have been a little concerned th th the the term, equal opportunities hasn't been mentioned once today, and I would like a reassurance that it's not because it's year's or the last decade's issue. I would like to know what N C V O currently is doing in a number of ways, about equal opportunities. Thank you. Right,may maybe I'll, I'll just start, and my colleagues can can add in, I'm hogging the platform as usual. Can I say that, when I was interviewed for the job of er, Director, or I was asked along with other applicants, to put forward a er paper presenting my issues and concerns, and I can say to you, equal opportunities was a key one there. So I hope there will be other developments going on. But certainly, equal opportunities as as a part of the integral working of N C V O and we do regularly review, how we, as an organisation, are meeting our equal opportunities requirements across the board, that's race, sex, disability, er,in involving the the staff who are at lower levels and so on. I do that there are some wider responsibilities, we need to keep reviewing what we're up to. Er, the organisation development unit was highly involved with the er, abilities and management development of er, black organisations. Now that they gone independent, we've got to again look and see what are our roles there. So it's a continually renewing effort, I believe, er, but I like to have the contribution of some of my colleagues, as to what they feel th the roles are. I think one of the reason why you haven't heard it mentioned specifically is because it is integral to a lot of the bits of work that we're doing. Just to to site some of the bits of work that I was talking about, erm, the Trustee Training Working Party, for example, er, in,ha has got on it, a representative from the black voluntary sector. We've looked particularly at some of the kinds of er, issues, that black and ethnic minority groups experience in that area. The mapping we are particularly targeting certain kinds of disadvantaged. The groups in our survey worked to make sure that we look at the needs, advice needs that they have, and that's brought out. The advancing good management project again, has prioritised certain kinds of disadvantage organisations, to ensure that they're getting funded, and that's also reflected in the representation on the Committee. So I think you can be assured that it's not something that's been put to one side, it's something that we're trying to build in to all the work we do, in whatever ways appropriate, but er, I accept that the the implications for your comment, that we've got to be continually, er watching ourselves, to make sure that we do that. Thank you, Richard. Simon Yes, I was going to to to add to that slightly, and to what Judy said, in in the sense that the implication, the question I think, is a correct one, that every organisation, and N C V O wouldn't be immune er, than from any other, have got to actually ensure that they keep this at the front of their agenda all the time. It's, it's quite right that it should be integrated in all our work programmes, rather than, it seems as necessarily a separatist erm, element or thing. But of course, the danger on the other side of the coin, if you simply rely on that, is that you actually begin to loose focus, or you begin to ignore it without meaning to, inadvertently. And I think it's both important for N C V O itself, to ensure that it's working on issues, equal opportunities issues that affect itself, and that it's helping the sector as a whole to do that, and and we're very conscious of that, and er, certainly just in the last few weeks, have been looking at how we can upgrade what we're doing in that sphere. Thank you. Can can I add to that, erm, Kay, by saying that, our concentration with within my department Mm. and personnel particularly, is on ensuring that N C V Os as an organisation is upholding the highest standards around equal opportunities, erm, our employment records are subject to regular monitoring, and we discuss, I mean, in a brain-storming way various issues that emerge from the figures that we get. So as an organisation we we're very much have an awareness of the need to be exemplary in that respect. Thank you. Angela and I was head of the International Department from nineteen forty-eight to nineteen seventy-two. Hello. I have be very interested to hear about the recent developments and most impressed at what's taken place, but er, I would like to ask about the international work, which I understand has been reduced. I feel, personally this is a pity now we're coming into Europe and er trying to be international, but I'm sure there was a very good reason for it, and I sh , I should like to know what it was. I'm sure they'll hasten to say, not reduced, just done in a different way, but shall I ask Yes. Thank you very much for that question, I think it is an important one, because we looked at our international work, as we did at all our work, over the period that we were considering reorganisation. And I genuinely would say, that I actually think the amount of international and European work going on within the organisation as a whole, is now greater than it was before. Erm, it's certainly true that we reduced the total size of a particular team or unit dealing with international affairs, but only on the grounds that we actually felt that it was very important that all the teams should be working on international and European dimensions of their work, rather than seeing it as compartmentalised in one area. Therefore, if I just looked at some of those policy teams that I referred to in my presentation, I would expect, and it's happening, that we would be taking on board, in each of those policy teams, the policy development work that's applicable to Europe. If we take just one example, the social and public policy team, has therefore policy responsibility for all the work, erm, from a policy point of view, er, about the legal structure that might exist in future, er, European associations that might be created, because it matches very clearly our work on charity law, domestically. So we're trying to unite the two things together. I think I can assure you, we've got a, an international European officer, who has the main responsibility for opening the doors for us in a lobbying way within Europe, and in addition to that, and the maintenance of the networks, we are spreading international and European responsibilities around the organisation, so it's seen again to be integral to our work, rather than compartmentalised, and I'm confident that the organisation as a whole, will therefore be doing more. Thank you, Simon,anybod any additions to that. No. Erm, I'd just like to reassure the conference, that there is actually a representative erm, from a environmental organisation, here today after Richard erm, comments, Head of Communications at Friends of the Earth, erm, and also to ask him, on what basis, erm, he made the comment that environmental organisation have a tradition of not working together. Erm, within Friends of the Earth, staff in the organisation, commonly liaise with their counter parts in other environment and development N G Os. Erm, we do work together, where we share a common agenda, and we find that we share common policy positions, and there are a lot discussions that go on about policy questions between environmental N G Os, erm, and also like any N G O that's pressed for time and money, we work together where actually it can be justified by the results. Erm, so really that's an enquiry, and also further explanation of the project that is being jointly funded by the D O E and B P. Thank you, Richard. Yes, I think my my comments, particularly directed at the regional and local level, where I think for quite understandable reasons, namely the very rapid development of new environmental organisations, er, in a lot of areas, er, we have found that the environmental groups have not er, initially been working together. I think that's changing very much. We've seen in a number of areas, the development of regional net environmental networks, which we have been directly involved in helping develop. And one part of the environmental project, is to try and ensure regional environmental networks develop in all parts of the country, rather just in those where they currently exist. The other part of the work is based on the experience, particularly of councils for voluntary service and other bodies like that, who at a local level are providing advice and support to voluntary groups. They found that their links with environmental groups are not very good, and also that environmental groups are often not very aware of the kinds of services that a council for voluntary service can provide them. So, the object of that part of the project is to try and address that issue, to try and make sure that N V Ss build up their links with environmental groups. That the services they provide are relevant to environmental groups, and in that way to to help environmental groups plug in to the kinds of advice on fund raising and er, management and all sorts of other aspects of running a voluntary organisation, which, at the moment, of, er a lot of, er social service organisations plug into, but so many environmental groups. So I I just thinks it's a, it's a feature of the rapid development of the environmental sector, that, for, as I say, for quite understandable reasons, some of those links, and networks, haven't been fully established, and our project which we see as a, as a short term one, essentially a three year bit of work, is going to address that, and it's been widely supported by er, a number of environmental groups. Thank you Richard. At the back, please. I'm Nigel I'm Chief Executive of the National Charity Community of Transport which is based in Manchester, and it's that last point which is really significant behind my question, and it concerns your new premises and, I'm one it's a question as to what your planning to do, and secondly, a request if you're not, er, that you could provide within that some working space for people from out of town, to use when we're in London, complete with things like, you know, coin operated fax machines, because I find I spend quite a lot of time in London, you have meetings on successive days, you have time to kill, and there's no where sort of, comfortable to go and sit down and get on with some things. Thank you. Tony would you comment I'm delighted to comment, though, subject to contract and everything else, I wouldn't give any any assurances. May I say, right at the start of the planning processes, and we'll we'll start with N C V O's immediate needs, but we're very aware of services that other organisation need from time to time, and it's very interesting to hear that as a, as a new example. Er, I will be fitting that in our own planning process. There is, erm, within London, in the next fours years or so, a major initiative that's being operated under under the erm, A C E N V O, Association of Chief Executives and National Voluntary Organisations which some of you will know about. A major er, development, somewhere around eighty to a hundred thousand square feet of resource space for organisations, and they will also, I think, be looking the sort of provision that you suggested. There's no harm, however, in us looking at that as an option within our own space. Thank you very much Tony. Possibly also worth mentioning er, B P's charity base, which I think, has been a very er good recent initiative, whereby there is office sharing accommodation available, er, and all those sort of services that you talked about, so er, there is already initiative, and I think that seems to be very successful. Thank you, the last question, I'm afraid now. At the back, please. My name's Alan from the Edinburgh Council Social Service to change its name in April, to the Council of Voluntary Organisations. I'd like first of all, bring greetings north of the border. I think I'm the only representative here, and apologies from the Director and the Chair of the Scottish Council of Voluntary Organisations. We had our annual meeting last week, and er, very successful it was too. I've operated er, various positions on the Celtic fringe, and I could've replied briefly to my colleague from Wales in Not in my haltering Welsh, I don't have any Gaelic I'm afraid. The point I would like to make is that while we're thinking of international relations, that we do bear in mind that United Kingdom is still a United Kingdom. We need to communicate with each other on a regularly basis over all the issues that have been raised. I think this is extremely important. I know it goes on. Some of us though, working at the ground, grass roots ma may not know that it goes on, and er, I would just like to take this opportunity of stressing how important it is to, that we communicate within the United Kingdom, and er, support Nigel's er, suggestion that it would be useful to have a base down here. He and I were at a lobby at the House of Commons yesterday, in er, celebration of the mobility allowance, which campaigned very successfully, and we, in the Community Transport field, have very close working relationships and communication. So there's an example of where it's happening and I hope it will happen over the whole field. Thank you. Th thank you very much, and I'm sure we send greetings equally north of the border. Sadly I think that our time has run out for this particular session, but I would remind you that the seminars this afternoon, erm, are, offer other opportunities to explore both some of the issues that have been raised er, through your questions now, and also others that you may wish to raise, er, with the members of staff, the leaders of the groups. I would, before passing on the next part of our programme, I would like to warmly thank Judy and Simon and Richard and Tony, not only for their presentations, their carefully thought out presentations to give us as broad a span as possible of how they see the priorities, what is happening at this time, but for everything else they do in leading their teams and initiating so many of the exchanges that take place, which adds so much, as has been said by, both by Judy and by other speakers, to carry N C V O forward. We are enormously fortunate as our Chairman said in his video presentation, erm, to have such devoted, loyal and committed staff, and I think you can see that in the quality of the work which comes out of N C V O and the way in which it it moves forward, always, sort of, going towards er er taking with it the members. So thank you very much indeed, and we now move on to, briefly to Earlier on our progr in our programme we received that Tony could not be with us today, but we are delighted to welcome in his place Sir Leonard I B M's Director of Personnel and Corporate Services. Sir Leonard has had a distinguished with I B M which included being seconded by I B M to the National Health Service Management Board, first as Director of Personnel and then as Chairman of the Board. He holds a number of directorships, is a member of learned institutes, an author, is a recipient of many awards and honours and hold many offices, including some as chairman in a wide range of organisations, including some in the voluntary sector and many concerned with education and training. The title of his address to us today, Voluntary Organisations and the Private Sector, is a subject of enormous interest to this audience, and it seems particularly appropriate with the wide and distinguished experience of our speaker. Sir Leonard. Well, thank you very much, Chair, for that splendid introduction, I'm sure my mother would recognise me from er, what you said. Good morning, ladies and gentlemen, can I just give you er, Tony apologies, er, unfortunately he has to be in Paris today, I know he'd prefer to be with you, but he has to be in Paris today, and since he's good at delegation, he's actually asked me to come along and and to talk to you. Erm, I suppose I have one advantage, which is I know one or two people in the audience and I think I know a little bit about the nature of the audience, er, and you gathered why from er, the Chair's introduction. But er, that's a great advantage when compared with the newly appointed British Ambassador in Washington, who having just arrived in Washington, er picked up the telephone and heard a voice at the other end, say, what do you want for Christmas, it was just before Christmas, what do you want for Christmas, and he thought hastily and, didn't want to be impolite or too greedy, so he said a small box of crystallised fruit, and put the telephone down, and a few momen a few moments later he put on the radio, and the announcer said, we've just conducted our normal review of the Ambassadors' wishes for Christmas, er, the the Ambassadors in Washington. And the German Ambassador wants peace on earth and good will to all men, and the French Ambassador wants the release of remaining hostages in Lebanon, and the British Ambassador wants a small box wants a small box of crystallised fruit. So I have that advantage, that er, I do know a little bit about you. Erm, and I also understand that this is the first time you've actually had someone from the private sector, er, whose been invited to er, address your A G M so, I'd like to thank you for the privilege, and for also for the opportunity to speak on a subject which I personally er, find of of great interest. A politician once said. Er, ask a fellow to speak on something that interests him, and you're sure to get a more interesting speech. And, I'm about to test that. As the role of er, business in the community is well at the top of personal agenda, in my job as I B M Personnel Director and Director of Corporate Affairs, the Corporate Affairs bit, er, is the piece I'm going to be talking about. Erm, well I er, I hope that er, I can prove that politician right today. Let me straight away, er, that it might be folly of me to assume that er, you know a great deal about I B M. By the way I B M stands for International Business Machines, not as, some people used to think, International Ballistic Missiles. Erm, and I B M is is of course, very well known in the computer field. I B M, U K, which celebrates its fortieth anniversary this year, has some sixteen thousand employees based in some fifty two locations throughout the United Kingdom, and they're working on all aspects of information technology, er, from software to silicon, from telecommunications to personal systems, and of course we form part of a very large company, I B M Corporation, which employs around three hundred and seventy thousand people across the world. Now some of you here today might wonder, what a computer company has to do with the community. Er, you may, quite understandably, regard businessmen like myself, with some suspicion. How can people whose daily life involves this relentless pursuit of profit, possibly understand the motives of organisations like your own. Organisations dedicated to providing support, to minority groups, to the disabled, to the under privileged, to the under achievers, or people who simply don't have the means to get the advice and support which they need. Let me assure you straight away then, I see absolutely no conflict between having moral values and running a profit making business. Ethics do have a place in the boardroom, and our employees, er employees in I B M, would expect them to have that place. Companies are made up of hundred of individual citizens who may depend on the support services of the voluntary sector. For instance, in the case of marriage guidance, bereavement counselling, advice on debt and so on . They therefore expect the companies they work for to support the providers of those services, in some way, and they want to play their part too, in delivering those services, and I have quite a lot to say about that, later on. But today I want to address three themes, that revolve around relationships. First the relationship between public, private and voluntary sectors, which I do believe need to work more closely together. Secondly, the relationships between the private sector and the voluntary sector, and lastly how we measure the success of these special relationships. Well my view, and it's a view shared by many business leaders, is that for business to continue to be the wealth creator in our society, a healthy balanced community in which to operate is essential. The private sector therefore, need the support of an educated, employed and motivated community as much as the community needs the support of industry and commerce, and when I'm asked whether, in these harsh economic times, business can still afford to support the community. My reply is that we cannot afford not to do so. Increasin increasing, it's not just a question of support, it's a committed partnership, and as the boundaries between public, private and voluntary sectors, become less rigid, these partnerships will continue to grow. And I'm sure you need no reminding that during the past ten years, a new order has emerged and is emerging, which is changing the roles traditionally per performed by the three sectors. For example, with the creation of hospital trusts, with the opting out of schools, with the contracting out of local government services. I would certainly advocate the existence of more fora where the three sectors can come together to achieve mutual understanding and where c we can debate this new order, and make joint decisions about its future. What about the relationships, specifically between the private and the voluntary sectors. The U K's voluntary sector is large, its turnover is estimated at about seventeen billion. Which incidentally makes it larger than agriculture. The voluntary sector, therefore, has an enormous role to play, in all our lives, and investing in it, is essential for the long term future of commerce and industry, for without it, the cement would not, would not set, and cracks would appear throughout our society. An investment, I repeat, investment, is the key word here. As I said last year at the Whitbread and Company conference on employee volunteering. We regard expenditure in the community as being in a par with expenditure in any other sphere of business activity, and subject to the same management disciplines. It is investment like any other business investment, and it should be clear what it is intended to achieve, and how this is to be measured. This is a view shared by about three hundred leading companies, including I B M, who belong to the per cent club. Members of that club see private sector involvement in the community as an integral part of corporate life, which can improve both business itself and the relationship between business sector and the community as a whole. Qualifications for the per cent club, which was launched by the Prince of Wales in nineteen eighty six, is the contribution of no less than half a per cent of pre-tax, U K profits, or one per cent of dividends to the community. The aims of the per cent club were described by the Archbishop of Canterbury, at the clubs, at the clubs annual general meeting last week, as clear and refreshing. He said, impressed by the growing co-operation between so many businesses and their local communities. It is the wealth creators, he said, who open up the great possibilities for improvement in our society. Community investment which without modesty, er, I can say is a phrase coined by I B M, is seen to be of strategic importance to many leading companies. A major plank of our community investment strategy is to work in partnership with the voluntary sector, at both national and local levels, and forgive me if I use I B M to instrumental in setting up the north-east environmental initiative in partnership with the ground-work trust, business in the community and Gateshead Borough Council. The initiative's aim is to encourage children in schools, to think about the environment, and involve producing an environmental teaching pack, running an environmental course for teachers, and developing a green software application for us on personal computer in schools. Now let me talk a little bit about policies. I B M, U K has long established policies for managing its corporate social responsibility, and as I said earlier, applies the same principles to this as to any other business activity. Thus we've never considered it right to hand out cheques on a mere whim, deciding to sponsor a project, or support a charity because it happened to be the flavour of the month, or because a director had some some particular keen interest in it. Last year we gave four point four million, either in kind, or in people's time, not including er, that that's secondees, or erm, in in money, er, and er, it sounds a lot of money, but you can easily get rid of that sum, when you're receiving so many requests. So it's im particularly important to target it, and to make sure that there is some impact, as a result of that expenditure. So our support has been subject to redefined guidelines, as you'd expect from any efficient organisation. Recently, we've come to think er, even more strategically about the projects, and organisations we've chosen to support for of course, two reasons. First, this more systematic approach, has left rather less room for doubt when making decisions about contributions, when one gets so many applications, and second, the recession has forced us to look more carefully at how potential new investments might meet company objectives as well as the needs of the community. Notice it's not altruism, I'm arguing very clearly, as as self interest in in the activity. I'm sure this strategic approach is appreciated and understood by organisations such as yourselves, who prefer the closer working relationship which follows this kind of of support. What do we bring to this partnership for the voluntary sector. Our most obvious support is through cash donations, but often it's much more than that. We bring the time of our people, resources in kind, and skills and expertise. Employment, impartment of the voluntary sector is one of the fo one of the four er, basic areas which we define for support er, against their background of er, of targeting. Now by impartment, we mean, we mean, enabling, we mean helping the voluntary sector to be more ef effective and efficient in the use of its scarce resources. So that is a very clear objective that we have, as one of our contributions. We do this in several ways, including for example, our creative management skills course, which won a a national training award in nineteen eighty-eight, and which we make available, of course , to managers within the voluntary sector. And in addition the I B M fund for com community computing, which was launched by John , the Minister of State at the Home Office earlier this year. We've been running the management skills courses since nineteen eighty-six, and since then, more than seven hundred and fifty people, from groups such as yours, have taken a part, and we're about to launch a phase two in the next er, year or so. It offers practical advice on team work, time and task management, leadership and delegation, the motivation of others and many other topics. There can be no doubt that this course has heightened the management skills of some of those working in the voluntary sector, but an extra benefit is that it had widened the links between I B M and you, and widened the understanding between both of us. The fund for community, computing I mentioned earlier, is aimed at helping voluntary and community organisations to use information technology more efficiently. Many organisations, as I'm sure you are aware, buy computer or receive them as gifts, but they don't make full use of them because of the lack of money for the necessary training and consultancy. The fund will provide grants for up to a thousand pounds for these organisations to spend on such training. Another way in which we is by encouraging and facilitating employee volunteering. I B M is just one of many companies, who now feel that lending employees rather than giving money, is a better way to work with a voluntary sector. One of the main facilitators for community involvement is what has become known in I B M as the ten per cent scheme. This enables our employees to use the equivalent of one afternoon a week during working hours, for approved community activities, always of course, subject to workload. And many of employees are involved in voluntary groups, education and training, the arts and charities, in of course, their own spare time. In fact our office in Edinburgh, last week, won a major U K award for employee volunteering. The award was presented by the Prince of Wales at the Annual Meeting of the per cent club, which I've already mentioned, and it was during nineteen ninety, and it won the private sector small to medium size company, or companies subsidiary sector category. Incidentally, much of its work was done in support of the Citizens' Advice Bureaux, erm, in which it helped develop er, computer applications, and also it had the courage to organise a major AIDS conference. You will, I'm sure, some of you will be familiar with the drugs AIDS problem, which exists in Edinburgh. By the way, the overall winner, so I don't make it too I B M, was of course, Body Shop International. One of the reasons, I B M's Edinburgh office won the award, was the enthusiasm of the employees. And this was also why L E A T,L E A T our Local Environment Action Teams, initiative, proved to be so outstanding. L E A T was designed to encourage employees and their families to undertake voluntary work to improve the environment. Employees were awarded sums of money between a hundred pounds and fifteen thousand pounds to tackle projects in partnership with national or local voluntary organisations. When the scheme was announced the need for individual as well as corporate action was underlined by Tony . In this area, and others we support, it's the individuals which a company's role in the community so well received. Individual co This too, they left until the end of the meeting in er, in part two. Part two. Sure, do you mean paper B or do you mean the whole of item three? The whole of item three the whole of item three. You agree? Agreed There is a problem with magistrates courts and things like that Chairman, and I don't think there's contention about that is there? They are, there are in parts. We make it. Are they? As I understand it Chair, what you're saying is, that there are, at three there is a, a request for an exclusion of press photographers, but the convenience of press photography we're saying that instead of taking immediately so that we'd have to call them back here for the even later, we're asking you for it to be taken at the end with the rest of exclusion That's correct. But Chairman, that refers to item three two, not the whole of three Yes, but I mean, it, it is erm, three wild parker, presumably, so that I, I, I would assume Mr Chairman if we do have to maybe you'll be sure that he, the with three, two agreement? Yes, Three two, yes, it's only three two. The others don't come under those sections. It's difficult for me, yes. Okay, you agree? Three two Yes On the budget And three three On the? No Yes, there seems to be some database with what we're We can't, We can't, we can't take C before B really, we'd have to discuss C before B, we can come back into public on C if you so desire, at the end Mr But B will be erm, but B three will be in section in three We're talking about B three Captain, B three is open to the public press, unless count county solicitors propose a good reason why it shouldn't be. But we don't want to discuss that before B do we really? We've got to make a decision on B before we can finalize C. Thank you. Alright. Yes Chair,th th that's right, as I understand it, there is no reason why C should not be discussed next session, indeed it's probably right that it should be, but it's a matter for members to decide whether they can usefully do so before considering B. We can go back into public after B if you so desire. Yes, yes Are we not allowed to defer B until the end of the meeting? But we can't take C Mrs , until we've taken B. No, oh, right, I see. I will, I will second you that we Agreed, yes We can do three, four Chairman. We just agreed it. Three, four? Three, four's only for report. Three, four is only a report. We haven't had the opportunity to decide the recommendations there. So, I mean the recommendations are finally complete, have you submitted to Policy and Resources Committee? Read, read over Chairman, can I ask what, what your intentions are with, with the budget, Chairman and there's great public interest in the budget. Is it your intention to enter a statement part erm, at the end of the meeting to the press and so on? If the press are here they can safe safely hear the items, if they're not here it doesn't matter. They're not here We'll deal with that when it comes, we're to it yet, anywhere near. No, no Er Can I propose we move on to four. Yes, we'd better just approve the minutes of the meeting process, of the last meeting first of all, hadn't we lads? I've completely overlooked it. Yes Agreed? Yes Item four, Trace of Deeds. Mr . Erm, I don't really wish to add anything in particular to this if people would like to ask questions, then I'm prepared to answer them. The, just note there is a short article note on the Waterprice situation overpage. If anybody wants to expand on that or anything else I'm willing to do so. Okay, anybody want to question Mr on any of the points? What's the feeling about B S E Mr Chairman, where're our feelings, put them down or what? Er, yes, Mr Chairman, nationally it is going down, locally we're, we're going along on a plateau, erm, and in some areas it is actually go the incidence is going up, but this is basically like Scotland where they haven't got many anyway. So the, the overall figure is going down, and this really reflects the way outbreaks have occurred, in that some areas have a lot early on, they're dropping off. We had a quite a number at the middle of the outbreak, er, that continuing erm, and some areas have had none, they're getting a lot. We, we will expect to go down. In other words, instead of almost doubling year by year, last we are about the same, we haven't got all the confirmations, we're about the same as we were the year before, give or take a few, about say five percent. Whereas before we were going up in leaps and bounds. It's slowing down. Levelling off locally, nationally beginning to down. Jim there's a Despatches programme on Channel Four next week where some of the work that we've done on B S E is fea featured and my colleague's been through it as well. So that's on Despatches on Channel Four next week. Can I ask my usual old chestnut again, Chairman? Erm, if we're not allowing nerve tissue to be used in the feedstuffs of cattle, because we suspect that it might be carried in that, and therefore being transmitted to live, er, one species to another, how is it now we can buy chops with nerve ti tissue in it? Choking at the whole process? You're only buying lamb chops and pork chops with the spinal columns still in. You wouldn't buy beef with the spinal cords still in. That sounds nasty. So what you're saying is, I'm not sure of cutting the process are you? Can you say that with satisfaction in your voice? Yes Okay any other questions for Mr on paper D? Okay will you excuse me, I'll be back in a mo. If not we'll move on, thank you Mr . To paper E, report by the Chief Trading Standards Officer on Animal Health and Welfare. Chair erm, Yes, Jennifer erm, on four, er, again I don't know what pigeon fanciers or pigeon er, what their views are on this, but you see, this is another European directive erm, there is a risk it says of this disease being airborne, it can be airborne, and it was shown that racing pigeons could introduce the disease to commercial flocks. Erm, is there really a danger of this, I see that er, the A C C are supporting the proposal, but is it just another sort of Euro directive that is going to cause a lot of expense and distress to a lot of people who keep pigeons, which is on the whole not a, you know, I was going to say, not a very erm, expensive form of sport or entertainment whatever. It can be I know, but I mean erm, I'm thinking of some of my electorate, and I haven't actually had the opportunity to ask them. As long as they don't come home to roost. Yes, I mean, can be, and might be and, and er, could be. Er, that isn't very definite is it? No, I think it, it is, it's quite a complex situation, but there is a disease of p pigeons which is one of these paramixa viruses, which has occurred in the country and is a disease of pigeons, and most pigeon clubs in fact all pigeon clubs now I believe, insist that their members vaccinate their birds. So most birds are vaccinated All the birds, and do they? Yes, most are vaccinated already. Now, obviously there are people who keep pigeons unassociated with clubs, it's not compulsory, but there's control in. So any other, including any, any other vaccines is really not a very great problem. The vaccine is administered by aerosol, it's not injected in, so it's just a matter of really spraying the vaccine in. So, I, I don't see this is a great problem for the Thank you very much it's not really and it's a, it's a belt and braces because if the other form of paramixa virus did come in, it would affect the poultry industry. But when we how cow pest in the county last? Ten years ago? Eight years ago? Eighty four I came, about eight years ago, nine years ago. It was traced back to pigeons, feral pigeons though in th at the feeding stuffs erm, place in Liverpool. So what we're saying really, or what you're saying, is that the costs, erm, are, not very ex not very high, and the cost is well worth the erm, protection that it er, that it gives. It cuts down a, er, er, risk which is perhaps not that high in the first place. But it cuts it down. So it's worth the cost ? I mean, the report does say that pigeon fanciers are opposed on grounds of cost. Yes, I, I agree with you on that. I accept that's what they're saying Tom, you see. But we're given information that the cost is not very high. Other questions on the er, on the report? Ch Ch Chair, can I embrace er, can I have consent under five. I, I think it's regrettable that the concerns and the criticisms of the use of open dips er, has still not gone away in spite of what the institute's said. But I think it's to be welcomed that a medical panel will be established. The difficulty is, is that there also needs to be some work done to evaluate alternatives, because clearly there is widespread concern about outbreak of er, sheep scab, not only in this area but indeed across the country. Members may well be aware of, of some of the actions that the A T C have been taking on this, and have been calling on that to actually look at that to list of alternate. Indeed I know a number of authorities who're actually considering sending delegations to, to meet with the Minister to discuss the whole issue of sheep dip, and er, the lack of compulsory in er sheep dipping. And er, I would like to propose that this Committee, together with the National Farmers' Union and Country Ploughmens' Association sends a delegation to London to meet with the Minister to discuss these issues and other, our concerns. I'll second that Mr Chairman. Any members there want to express any thoughts on the matter? Yes, it's quite an ideal choice. You've no doubt you'll be paid the only thing I wanted to ask Chairman, if somebody can help me? Er, the information comes out I think er, both in the newspapers and er, a number of the television and radios, bit touchy about organo-phosphates, er, in sheep dips. Some people are saying that they're deadly dangerous and er, we need to wrap up as if you're going into a nuclear zone, and er, somehow other people say they're vital, it depends on what sort of mix you use, and how you use it, and where you use it. I mean there, do we have any, do we have a view, do, does anybody know exactly what it is? That should we be using it, shouldn't we be using it? And er, if we shouldn't have been using it, what's the alternative? Because none of us wants to have er, the problems that are occurring when you don't put any sheep dip on. The problem is Chairman, that, that the Veterinary Products Committee are the only ones that can allow, that, that, sorry, that advise the Minister on what preparations should or should not be er, used. When we, we using B H C vaccine in eigh er, late seventies, early eighties, erm, that caused problems because we had residues left in the meat, and the French amongst others found it as well, so there were, there were problems there, and the Ministry went over to organo-phos or to organo-phosphorus dips, they were the only alternative that they'd got at that er, time. Right Erm, the, all the arguments for and against organic dips have been considered this last nine months by the Veterinary Products Committee, and they've come out with a report I think, that satisfies no one, because it doesn't go either, either way in that respect at all , it's called for more research and, and erm, development in that, in that sense. It's difficult as far as the alternatives are concerned, is that no alternatives, but effectively it's about four times the cost to administer, because you can dip a hundred sheep off one of the er, packs and it's a smaller pack. So it's far more expensive and it doesn't do anything against fly strike during the summer. So farmers would have to use this against sheep scab and they've have to use other dips or sprays against fly strike in the sum sum summer. So ideally what the industry needs is an alternative that erm, is really, that kills off the sheep scab bug, and at the same time er, is er, affords protection against other erm, things like er, fly er strike. The Ministry, the Veterinary Products Committee is now going away and they're going to do even, even more work on it, erm, so I honestly don't think that, that we're going to get much more out of the Ministry until Veterinary Products Committee have come back and looked at it yet again, because the, the answer that you'll get is that they're already looking at that side of it. So far as compulsory sheep dipping is concerned, er, there are a number of counties that have put the view that erm, it should be made compulsory again. Erm, in Shropshire the M F U are known to be in favour of compulsory dips, there's no difference between us, but if we are going down, you are going to send a re erm, er, a joint representation, then I think before you agree to send a joint representation then you need to have a meeting with M F U and C L A, to make certain that we're all saying the same thing. Erm, and, and if we are going to do, to do that, then I'd suggest as well Chairman, that we er, raise the issue with er, A C C so that we don't go alone, we go with other authorities if that's what members want to er, do. But at the present time, I mean Mr er, might have more information, but my information was that erm, after the V P C reported, was that there was just no alternative dip in the foreseeable future. Yes? I know what V P C means, but would you all The Veterinary Products Committee. Erm, yes, there is a report in erm, the er, veterinary literature just come out, on the use of an injection to control sheep scab. This is a, a it's the same as can be used against weevil fly. It, it seems to be very fairly effective, or very effective, but not a hundred percent effective, as the organo-phospho type, and you need to inject. But the obvious advantage of having an injection, is you don't have to put the sheep in a bath, but the disadvantage is you've got the residues which last us slightly longer. So you know, it's a, it's a balance. So as Dave says, the alternative dip protocol is, is very expensive, but it does leave no residue. The residue one is a problem as well Chairman, because when we had the sheep dipping campaigns, one of the things that we did was to, to just carry out some very quick rough checks at markets in this county to see whether in fact sheep were being withheld from slaughter sale for the required period. Fourteen days. Ten, depends on the product, but fourteen days. Ten days, fourteen days whatever it might be. And we found that about twenty two percent of the er, sheep being entered, had been dipped within the period, so in other words they'd not been withheld, so it's a concern. You'd have to have cons you have to, as well as having the dipping controls, you'd have to have the controls over marketing as well. Yes? Can I just come back Chair, and I recognize obviously there is er, further work that's going on with this and support that it does, but there is a case with the Parliamentary Ombudsman in discipline on this at the moment, so on the way in which it's been handled by the Ministry. But I think it is important for us to er, as an individual authority as well as working with other authorities, to actually keep up the pressure on the Ministry to, to let them know that this isn't going to go away, and that they've got to come up with some answers which are, which are going to try and satisfy people. And having said that, they recognize the difficulties of the moment, it's the question of the alternatives, and there needs to be some work done on that. In the papers there doesn't seem to be that, that, that No in actual fact it was circulated to all members the V P C report of the, of the time. Yes Rather than the last meeting, it was just a couple of days after the last meeting, so rather than wait until now, I circulated all the papers I'd got. I think Chairman, it is of particular interest of Shropshire isn't it really? If anything Shropshire must have more sheep than almost any other county . I think we ought to look at, not necessarily with the agencies, our own delegation might well be able to do something. Well Chairman I'm grateful for that, that information, what it says is that er, everybody else is just as confused as I am. No really, and er, so I, I don't feel quite such a fool as I did when I started to speak. But er, I think the advice that erm, Mr is giving us about who we talk to and when to talk to them, how we get to get together and present a united face to government is a, is a good suggestion, and I'd like to propose that er, we accept that. Yes, yes. I, I, I'm very concerned, erm, about this because er, I used to deliver this dip, and I, I'm concerned er, about my staff, and there's been lots of cases that have claimed that this er, dip has affected people. There's any amount of farmers, farm workers er, going sick because of this dip, there was last year. Whether it's genuine or not I don't know, but er, I think it was, it is dangerous stuff and erm, it is time, surely we do it, our scientists can find something better and cheaper. Because I mean, that, it, it costs the earth anyway, that damn stuff, it really does,with it, and it's a, well I, I did it on about eight hundred sheep so you know, my men are stuck in this for a day or two. It's er, it's not pleasant for them, and they're doing it in wet weathers, but I mean whatever erm, I find for them you know, to wear, I mean, time after time they get their feet down and slip and get them in . In fact I've known people to go right in, so it, it, it's not a simple job, you know, and they do take a great deal of risk with this, and I do, I mean it's much more serious than I think than the government find, it should really work hard to try, to try to find something else. We never had this problem years ago, I mean it's only do-gooders who stopped the stuff we used to use years ago which was a reasonable price, who's caused all these problems. You, you're saying there is already an alternative? Erm, a bit of In your opinion? Well yes, but I mean, it's before this erm, this lot came out, and er, that used to work alright and that didn't er, the do-gooders decided it was affecting our meat, You're only expressing a personal opinion Councillor ? Well I don't know about that, it seems to be a general opinion for farmers. Well why does the Farmers Union support, anyway we won't go into an argument about that, but I mean the M F U support the dipping and er, with due respect, it's a personal opinion. Well sir, they're, we support dipping because it's already been stated to note that we make most of the money for Shropshire from farming, and sheep is one of the big things which we sell all over the country, but unless we can guarantee our sheep are clear of er, disease people aren't going to come here and buy meat and stuff are they? And that's the important point. Yes, yes. Are you agreeing that some, some action should be taken? Oh yes, I'm all favour of dipping, but I want a safer dip for the operators. , well you've heard the motion, If, if Mr accepts that, can I er, call a meeting with perhaps a member from each of the groups and an M F U and C, C L A? I doubt Mr can be included in that because he's on the A C C, aren't you on the A C C committee for this? No, not on this particular committee services No, alright, sorry, sorry alright. Okay are you all agreed? Yes. Any other points on the, on this report? Erm, only one Chairman, on, on eight under inbred. Making inspections on cattle on page four, erm, one thousand one hundred and forty two inbred, and five hundred and twenty three bred. Is one thousand one hundred and forty two incorrect inceptions or whatever,correct, isn't that very high? Yes, it's the, the failure to keep bovine identification breed re records by two or three far farmers and it's one of those things where if you've got a lot of animals and you haven't marked them, then you get a lot of incorrects, and that's why we've got to go through it. So it's just two or three people, and not ? Yes, yes, yes. Erm, the situation in Shropshire as far as records are concerned is erm, relatively good. It would be even better now, now we've got these systematic What? Okay, I expect everybody's noticed seven and noticed the legal proceedings that followed that. Right we'll move on. Fire and Rescue Quarterly Report. Fire Officer, paper F, and I think you've had a something additional put on your table because you've had with that paper A. Oh It's against statistics for July to Sept July to September. I think it's worth er, noting Chairman the high incidence of er, chip pans, which are domestic chip pans, not chip shops, quite a high incidence still of domestic fires caused by domestic chip pans. Chairman can I also say that the er, the false alarms situation seems to have gone down. Erm, I think we ought to make it very clear again, that we can now trace calls, and er, I hope the press are noting that and making as much as they can of it, because that's the sort of thing that helps to remove malicious calls, which go which cost a lot of money, and a lot of time, and also put somebody else's life in danger when an appliance has been called out to something that it's not required for. So that's er, that's a very pleasing er, statistic if I may say so, and er, I reinforce again we can now check and find out where false calls come from. Thank you Chairman. Chairman, on, on the front of page, under over the border calls, I don't know whether people saw the erm, local news last night, about the cuts in Herefordshire and Worcestershire, and apparently there's just one appliance will be in Kidderminster, erm, will that mean we'll have more over the border calls, because they won't be able to get appliances? I, no, well the answer is no as far as the Chief Fire Officer is concerned. Do you want to speak on this er, No, Chief hasn't set any questions, erm, the other change to this has been to remove the fire's special interest and we've put in as a separate paper, so that we can bring them up to date. Hitherto you've always received them three, six months in arrears. What we're trying to do is get it, reasonably up to date, and these are of course then, photographs for the album as well . Yes there are photographs going round by the way. Yes Councillor? Yes, could I just raise a point on two on the analysis of fire calls. Erm, the heading doubtful, arson suspected. There seems to be quite an increase over the year, erm, virtually double. Erm, are they actually in particular areas, grouped and, and particular age groups which may be causing these incidents? Yes, very much so in fact, and in this sort of thing the local trend is similar to the national trend. People who set fires tend to be young males, there are very few female arsonists, and there are not that many in the sort of later age group. They tend to be young, and they tend to be male. That's not always the case, but it's, that's the tendency. Erm, there is an increase nationally, we've got a similar increase locally, although the figures that we've shown there are probably distorted slightly. I mean it's not anything like as dramatic as that, but it's, because it fluctuates in different quarters in the area, in different towns. But yes, the trend is the same as the national one, there is an increase in arson, possibly that's also influenced by the fact that we're better at detecting arson and we're becoming increasingly more so as the years go by, and calls that would have been recorded as unknown in the past, would now be recorded as this. Were you referring or asking whether these occurred in areas of Shropshire, or? No, no, I, I wa I was actually referring to the, the nature of, and the, whether if Shropshire was the same as the national. Chairman having detected the arsons, I wonder if the Chief Officer knew whether a study had ever been done on the background of those people generally, nationally who er, caused that scene and whether any steps would be f if they were confined to certain people with certain backgrounds, or certain part of histories, whether anything could be brought to bear? Yes, erm, a great deal of work has been done in the United States on this trend, in particular by juvenile fire setters as they refer to them. There's been a more limited but still a fairly substantial amount of work done in this country, and there has been nothing at all, we've had done locally. Recently, I met with er, the probation people from Social Services to discuss exactly what Major has asked about, which is follow up on juvenile fire setters, and find out if there's any way in which we can modify their behaviour. And in the past, the, the nearest we've got to that is taking them along to a fire station and telling them what sort of people we are, that has been proved in many cases to be counterproductive, because it's actually an incentive if you wish to set fires from other districts than this. So what we're trying to do is approach this in a professional way, and we're drawing on the national and the international experience and working together with Social Services to try and determine a sensible policy. And I have to say that we're talking about a limited number of people, that even if you deter half a dozen young fire setters in a year, you'd probably made a fairly substantial impact in Shropshire. So we're at that very early stage that we are working directly with Social Services, and also in another area with education, for the same reason. Yes, okay, could we ask Mr Chairman, on this particular thing on this arson business in one thing that we did express concern of were a number of years that are invariably are started we've called in to do the research into this and the investigation, so ar does this add now the fact that you're more sophisticated, does it now mean that your having more staff er, devoted to this, because this was a question that whether we should do it, or whether the police should be doing it? Is it, er, er, having an impact on us, on our standing? Yes, I think the answer to that has to be certainly it does. Really to investigate even to analyze the statistics takes time. To produce these statistics in the way we now produce them takes time. To break them down into calls by type of station or something as simple as that. Yes, yes, I, I accept that, but it To analyze the statistics and look for meaningful trends obviously takes staff time. But this, this won't be a er, uniformed staff, this will be, I presume, difference between uniformed staff and building staff. No, they input that the information's come by from non-uniformed staff, but the analysis is always done by uniformed staff who are able to identify the trends, and who understand what the figures mean. So yes it does have an impact, and if we investigate fires to a level which would allow us to identify trends and patterns then that will . Okay, move on paper G, sorry no, am I right, no we're not. Fire service S S A, five point four. No, we haven't done that yet. No, I'm sorry, in view sorry I'm keep is it, my fault Paper G, fire's special interest On page two on the twenty sixth of November, I don't think er, it does, it doesn't tell the full story does it? Nor does the picture book that's just passed by. Page, page three The child, the child was, the child was dead. What? What, which one are we looking at? We're looking at paper G, Chairman. But page, you said page two? Page three I said, item on the twenty sixth of November. Page three. Ninety three. Yes, I just asked in, to give it in a note actually. I understand what Major is saying. Is he saying that this is incorrect? You located the child on the first floor No, no exactly. and then conveyed to hospital. I haven't got a clue. Well,res rescue does, rescue does, does er, conjure up in the mind that the person rescued was alive. But the Fire Service don't declare who's dead and alive, and they've got very good personnel. Alright, alright, I'm just telling you then. Perhaps this is something, I was just going to say that, until someone is actually certified dead by your doctor, they're not regarded as dead and so that's what, what's happened Well I think the Committee should note that there was a fatality at that, at that incident. Can we note that Mr Chairman? Yes, we'll note it, erm,, the fatality w when they are incoming, it could happen any time after six months, after twelve months,. Any other point? It's fairly up to date, sixteenth of December, paper H, road traffic accidents. I couldn't understand this one Chairman. No it takes a bit of conjuring out, yes Yes Oh, your computer played up, yes, yes, George I must apologize for this one, it's hard for me sometimes to understand it as well. Erm, the one, two, three and four refer to quarters, it seems a strange way to do it, and I apologize for that. The three columns below actually relate to the categories, persons extricated, services omitted, and services. So if you move the key up alongside those three columns, does it make sense? But as I say, I do apologize for that, it's unnecessarily complicated. There, the, the graph illustrates what's in the table below. Stick to the graph itself, if you ignore the rest of it, the graph's actually good. What do no services mean? Well it's where we're called out, probably with the initial belief that somebody is trapped, and the person's either released before we arrive there, or, you know, So we do nothing, but turn back and go back? Well, very often what is, we do is make the vehicle safe, er, by isolating the battery and so on, we may warn about petrol. But in general it just means that we've arrived, we've discovered that nobody's trapped, and we go away. But where, then can you explain what the difference is with people extricated in the R T A services only then. Well services only is walking down the road disconnecting the battery, or something similar. So we, we have three categories, we don't do anything at all, we do something fairly menial like washing away petrol or disconnecting batteries, or we rescue people. Thank you. Yes Councillor? Er, Chairman, yes, I wanted to make a comment and ask a question. And I'll, I think I can, I have it on, on this right and road traffic accidents, may perhaps cover any traffic accidents namely if a plane crashes in the other night, erm, last Saturday night. Yes A plane crash The plane crashed completely. Erm, I would like to particularly compliment the Fire Service on the magnificent job they were doing there, in, in the most appalling conditions. It was very, very difficult for them, they had to come and they had to find the, the actual crash, and it was an appalling position to get to, erm, the efficiency was splendid. Erm, my, my question particularly is, does this also come under sort of, traffic accidents? Well we don't get any extra money out of Standard Spending Assessment. Because it's absolutely disgraceful. I mean it was a very big operation, there could have been people alive in that plane, but er, as it happened, I, I think tragically they were both dead, but I mean, but people didn't know that. Erm, and I, I think it's quite beyond belief that these sort of accidents as well as the major road accidents aren't taken into consideration for our S S A, and particularly in a county like Shropshire, where there's very little but grain in a lot of places, and that erm, money has to be found But, I would, I would really like to hear what the Officer Yes it's very unfortunate, there is an item on that, on five point four, you know,re regarding that er, Yes, I saw that there was on, on this the S S A. I saw that afterwards, I rather wanted to hang it on this so's I could put in my comment about the plane Yes, yes, that's right, I appreciate it, yes. An aircraft is classified as a road traffic accident? Well it's traffic Well I mean, the, the the irony is, if you look in the Brigade's statistics chart, the one that's attached to that one,the aeroplane crash would come under special service calls other so it's a miscellaneous column, so it's not even a road accident, it's some other. And this one, Like opening a lock of a door of somebody's house they can't get in? We have some photographs by the way of the er, aircraft, that can be sent round er Care carefully sifted. yes, erm Yes Mr Chairman, I er,Mrs qui quite rightly said we can congratulate the Fire Service on the way they dealt with that plane crash, and er, we're all sorry that it happened. Erm, could I sort of use that as a lever, to remind people on the yellow sheets that we forgot about, and that was the last one, the sixteenth of December, and er, I think that's, that's an element of personal er, commitment to the Fire Service which is so divided. Which er, which we all, who went to the, the particular er, er occasion when we went past it on our way from the church to the reception we saw it going on. We all know what was happening, and er, and we, we, I personally would like to make sure that er, fire fighter valiance is, is congratulated in this Committee too, because there was extreme bravery on that occasion. Hear, hear. I've no doubt in time, that that report will be coming before the Committee regarding that. I also intend to recommend for a, you know, a non-fire service humanitarian award. At least that was something that was done out with the normal course of duty, so like I think. Yes Colonel? I, I, I, I don't think we should pass too lightly over what Mrs has said, it does seem extraordinary in that, er, someone who's locked out of their house, and the fire service comes along and opens the door for them comes under office, and mains and miscellaneous, and then a major, er, a plane crash is also classified like that. I, I, I don't know if we can work with Mr through the A C C that, that his classifications, it's, it's, it's a more major incident than some of the, some that are shown. And, I, there ought to be another column really within this, for these, for these sort of things, and it certainly should be, be er, included for the er, Standard Spending Assessment, for the erm If somebody had put a match to it, it up there you see, it would then come under S S A, Some, sorry? Somebody would've put a match to it and set it on fire, we would have got money for going to deal with it. Yes, so I wondered whether if, I think we should take that up er, it does seem extraordinary that a big thing like that is, is sort of put in the odds and ends column. Yes, it is a crazy situation. Can I just ask, would it be different if it had been a military aircraft? It would have been a great deal more difficult because military aircraft use more volatile fuel, and they tend to be armed, they tend to be carrying things that civil aircraft don't normally carry, so yes, it would've been much more difficult. Of course, the, the speeds would've been higher as well . And you probably wouldn't have been allowed to get near part of it. Yes, but, would, would it have still have been something which we wouldn't have got any money for? Oh absolutely yes, unless it had gone on fire. If it had gone on fire, we'd have rescued it. It probably would've, military aircraft tend to burst into flames more easily than civil aircraft, it is true to say. Can we keep nibbling at this Chairman, can a letter be written to say that we're, we're rather concerned about this methodology, and psychology of this? We are nibbling, we're constantly nibbling, we nibbled at the last time, and Councillor on our behalf has nibbled at it as well, erm, a report, erm Yes, we, I mean we have Well can we go again, because, and use this as an, as an example? It will take quite big headed advice, that is, as well as familiar. Well can we go again, because, by we're having a wail, perhaps one day we'll get through to somebody? Yes, and I've no doubt that our representative on the A C C will take it up as well again. Well he wants to let, And let us, well that's right, I mean that's partly covered by erm, by in the sense that whilst as far as this year's concerned, erm, it's too late for that, but then if the government have agreed to look at, look at special service calls again for next year. Because I think incidents such as this we move to help bring pressure to bear on er, But Mr wants a letter before, to pave his way, beforehand, the letter's to go to the appropriate people on the board meeting. I think it's probably worth mentioning on that similar context following Mr 's comments about the false alarms, that the more successful we are at reducing those, the more that impacts on our budget because they take out for S S A, unlike road accidents. So the more successful that we're reducing them and road accidents, then we automatically reduce our S S A. It's a crazy, crazy method isn't it? Well, can a letter be written on this Chairman? Yes, so that Mr will have some backup. Teddie, are you taking five, four, eight for this behind ? Well I'll, we'll, we'll come to it, yes, it, it's immediately after this. We erm, we have some photographs of w which are rather horrendous actually, of R T As. Now, I've discussed with the Chief Fire Officer whether members of this Committee should be allowed to look at them. I mean I think that it's erm a good idea for members to see what firemen and I'm thinking in particular really of fire fight fighters I shouldn't say firemen, fire fighters, we've got ladies, erm, who are retained and can be at their du place of work one minute, and twenty minutes afterwards they've got to face up to ho horrendous sights, erm, it must have a tr traumatic effect on them. Er, and I think it's a good idea that you, if you want to have a look at these photographs, look at them, if you're squeamish at all, don't look at them. Erm, the Chief Fire Officer will enlarge on what I've been saying. Erm, if I could say that, we show you lots and lots of photographs of bits of squashed metal, that doesn't actually mean very much, and I think Mr more than anybody round here will with that. The impact that it has on these people particularly as the Chair said, the retained service, can be quite profound because they, unlike the whole time firemen can be catapulted from being a joiner one minute into being a rescue operator the next minute. And, road accidents, we talk about them a lot, and we've discussed about charging for them, or whether we shouldn't and all the rest of it, they aren't about bits of squashed metal, they're about people. And these picture, they're two or three incidents that we've had recently, they are fairly horrible. If you've got any sensitivities at all don't look at them please, but if you wish to, they'll give you an indication of the kind of thing that your fire fighters have been facing over the last three or four months. These are all recent incidents, so I mean I really would reinforce that, don't look at them if you're in any way squeamish, because they're not, they're quite unpleasant. They're not meant to be crude or sensationalist, they give you an idea of the kind of thing that your fire fighters face on a regular basis. Right we'll move on to five point four. Fire Service S S A, which we've talked to at some length already. Councillor ? Can I ju ju just raise a point where it refers to the fact that the S S A is going to be looked at again next year. Erm, the agency has considered a paper on this as is referred to in the final paragraph, what it's basically suggesting to the Department of the Environment and the Home Office is, is that a formula is based upon the supply factors er, such as the, the number of fire stations and standard crew levels etcetera. Now, with any, I freely admit, as I'm sure we all do, that, that there's no formula in this that's going to be perfect, but having seen some preliminary information on the work the A C C is, is pushing at the moment, it does unfortunately have a detrimental impact on, on our own situation here in Shropshire. With the report erm, I have circulated copies to each of the group's spokesmen, there was a couple of charts which indicate what the current situation is with er, spending as against S S A, and if the Home Office move to er, a fir what they call a fire station based S S A, what the position would be. And on the basis of those graphs it does look as if our situation worsens. So I think we've got to be very careful erm, and I want to know which way to go with this. But I'm very concerned obviously as a representative of Shropshire on that Committee, I don't really want to support something which at the end of the day is going to have a detrimental impact on our own service here. Now I'm wondering how easy or whether there's any mileage in actually having a report coming to our next committee, to actually build on that so that we've actually got something to pull on figures to consider erm, and if, and it, it is going to detrimentally impact upon us to a greater or lesser extent, then, then obviously it's helpful to me. But I think it's also useful for the Committee to intimate comments on, on where it sees areas to be looked at, like special service calls, so on and so forth. I don't think anybody can agree, there is, there is perhaps a better way of looking at the current formula, but I'm just a little bit concerned having read this report and seen the purpose, about the way that er, the A C C are, are pressing for the We, we. I, we're just about the middle of the road with it er, Yes, yes, I mean this year, with the formula obviously, because the number of fire calls has dropped, it impacts upon er, as I say that, I don't know whether the actual, the cost, the differential between the number of calls that have dropped and the drop in the S S A, whether it's comparable, and I don't suppose they've got a measure of the drop, in S S A terms it's far greater than the actual marginal costs of er, not attending those er, extra, extra fire calls. And it, yes, it hits, and I mean that's, that's purely off the top of my head, that it certainly is, we haven't unlighted any detail. It's probably the, the simplest illustration is to say that over the last three or four years, we've moved from being well below S S A to nine point four percent above S S A, now nothing's changed other than that we've got a slight decrease in the number of calls over this last two years. Our Brigade hasn't got dramatically larger, nothing dramatic has changed. All that's changed is the way the formula's been applied, and the number of calls that counts towards the formula. So one minute we're, by S S A terms, a frugal authority, and now we're a bit of a substantial overspender. The policy's to be welcomed in the fact that we're actually attending er, less and less calls. But obviously er, as the Chief says, it has impacts on our S S A, so really we need, in money terms, to be able to give er, a relatively high value of call out. That's not to add that the existing formula is at fault. The difficulty is if we move to something, er, which is supply based as is being suggested, then it could impact even, even greater and so there's no perfect er, system for this, but there's got to be a better way. Yes, it's, it's possibly worth mentioning on that as well that, in comparison with the supply based, I mean the existing system is demand based, which is silly, because we have to have fire stations there even if they never go out, if they go out twice a year, we still have to have a fire station in loco, but with the demand based model that's illustrated in A C C based initiative, it's based on existing supply, and this authority has a fairly frugal level of supply in comparison with some other authorities, so what happens is that if you apply it to existing supply then we come out quite badly. And I think until reviews of the standards of fire cover are applied on a uniform basis across the country, the more uniform basis than they currently are, then the figures will always be the problem. Okay,th we will present them. the next meeting at branch to try and er, get of er, what potentially we're looking at. Okay Yep We move on. Fire Service Pension Scheme, five point five. Okay Chair, that's just a note that it er, it's a matter we've raised with this Committee on several occasions in the past, and getting close I think to being able to present some detailed figures as to the likely costs in future, of firemen's pension sch scheme to Shropshire County Council. It's a bit worrying isn't it? Very, very. What happened to the reorganization? No, well I should think we've got to think about it. Yes. Speaking entirely selfishly, it's extremely worrying. The police have a similar problem, erm, but not, not as bad as we have. Oh no, it's a lot bigger, it's a lot worse, well there's a lot more of them. Well, there's a lot more here. It's early retirement now, I suppose. I beg your pardon? It's early retirement. Well, yes, that does It has had an effect on us, but it's relatively limited. But the basic, but the basic problem is the way it was set up in the first place, An unfunded scheme it's an unfunded scheme, it, it just simply has ongoing revenue, on an an annual basis. That's right And if you have an increase in, in one year and the situation then throws it all out of kilter. It doesn't have enough money coming in to pay for it. It's as simple as that. It was a wonderful scheme for thirty years, it's got lots and lots of money, but we never seem to put any in. For thirty years onwards it's a dreadful scheme. As Mr is hinting on the paper. I mean unfortunately the authority in days gone by has benefited from the scheme in the sense that the extra, extra money in service in truth, the revenue was there, erm, the chickens have come home to roost in the sense that it's, the tables have turned the other way, and I mean, gone are the days where, when we're least worried out that impact that, that, that much more of our er, of our budget. The financial advisers of those days were probably the people who taught the ones who have been professional schemes. Okay Right, sorry, that was a nasty remark. In deference to the first thirty years, as the man says, Five point seven, sorry, five point six, paper I Review of Fire Safety, yes, please if you would erm, Right, Chair, P A G asked for two reports to be produced as part of the budget process, looking in more detail at the budget, and the two specific reports that were asked for, were fire safety and trimming. We've looked very closely at fire safety as it's currently existing, and within out current statutory and discretionary responsibilities. And we've attempted to cost out the work that's done against the resources. The caveat that we've put against the whole report is that there are something in the region of half a dozen major government initiated reviews into fire safety in this country. By the National Audit Office, the Audit Commission itself, the Home Office, the D T I under deregulation and all the rest of it. There are likely to be very, very substantial changes in the legislation itself and the way in which it's enforced. So in the medium term, the short to medium term I think we need to base what we're doing very much on existing establishments and existing workloads. That's not to say that we stop looking at it, and we'll be looking in more and more detail at the workloads, matched up against the resources, as we get better information. This Brigade is probably if not the only conservative one, one of a tiny number in the country, that don't computerize their information systems for fire safety. We never had had them, and we've been criticized recently by the Inspector, because of that. We're now attempting to install, or produce those systems so that we have better information. Because as you can imagine in fire stations there's a great deal of number crunching, there's a lot of inspections, there's a lot of work that's done. It's very difficult to analyze that using manual systems. Erm, so looking though it, the, the kind of, the only really important points, I think are that, er, to carry out statutory and non-statutory work. Most of non-statutory work is giving advice to people like control, and others, which may not be purely statutory in the sense that is, but the major difference is there's a time when it's imposed on when we have to do it. Whereas the Fire Precautions Act just says we have to do it, but it doesn't say when. And that creates fairly major problems for us. Erm, looking through the rest of the paper, there's a mistake in paragraph three, where it says cost of inspections was six hundred and fifty hundred, that should be six hundred and fifty thousand. Er, looking through the officer workload ratios in paragraph four, it shows that using what are in honesty fairly crude Home Office measures, we're really quite well to the national average, that we carry out approximately four hundred and thirty three inspections per officer in a year as opposed to the expected four hundred and eighty two. Erm, again we utilize ninety one point nine two percent of the available inspecting officers' time for inspections, rather than the national average of eighty four point three nine percent. I mean I, they look reasonable. All I can say to you, they're fairly crude measurements anyway. Er, looking on w there's a slight warning I think there about,th the decision talks about possible reductions by increasing intra- . That means that we are locked into issuing fire certificates since we rely on the and it imposes a marked official erm, performance target on us, we can't afford to let the numbers of inspections of supported defences drop, so that means that we've got to find money from elsewhere in the budget. Looking to, I've referred to the possible changes and the recommendations really say that, at present there's insufficient information and it's against a background of very dramatic future changes in fire safety. And I would say to you that really there's little point in making any major changes there until you, you're able to assess it properly. Major you signifying. Thank you Chairman, I've got three questions Chairman for the Chief Fire Officer. They refer to the appendix A, attached. Firstly on the second page, number fifty eight, the Education Act in the middle of page one nine four four, refers to schools used and maintained by the local authority. Does that exempt schools that are not maintained by the local authority? That's the first one. Yes, yes, it's covered by the note underneath, where it says that independent schools receive inspections and advice as and when requested by the D O E . I see, you are requested by the D O E? Yes. Second question Chairman, er, and several of the, of the Acts er, they provide er advisory, advisory to the licensing authorities, advisory to district councils, with example pet shops, advisory to district councils, does that mean that they on I can only er, reckon that they think that places probably expect it if they're asked to do it by the District Council. Effectively yes, there is If the District Council were slack and didn't ask them to do it, we, we have no guarantee that er, that the premises that I'm in are, are safe. Yes, effectively. The best illustration is the Building Acts. Erm, when an application is received for building approval by a District Council, they consult the Fire Authority but there's no specific obligation on us to give detailed advice. In the past we gave very detailed advice, and the legislation has now been changed to say that we merely identify any shortcomings or failings in the application. That's purely advisory. But the thing is that there's time limits imposed on the building application, so that time limit is therefore transferred to us. Yes. So, but, but basically the answer to your question is, if we weren't asked then there's no requirement for us to give the information. No, so we don't know we're really safe in some premises, because the District Council may not have asked. The final question Chairman, there's a lot of er, facts here with no remarks against them under the premises and involvement like here on page three, number fifty nine, Mental Health Act, the National Assistance Act, Health and Safety at Work Act, it doesn't tell us the type of premises or what in so I say, well what involvement do we have with the Mental Heath Act for example? Yes Very, very varied. Erm, purely non-specific. Under the Mental Health Act, and off the top of my head, I'd say we certainly cover places like psychiatric hospitals, erm, residential institutions and all the rest of it. And again it's on the basis of giving advice as to what standards of fire safety are recommended. So our, so our safety in outside premises does, not only we, we cannot blame it on our fire service, we can blame it on another agencies, if something ever went wrong? Oh indeed, I mean a great many of them we have no responsibility at all for, we merely give advice when requested. The Health and Safety at Work Act, that's one line with nothing decided, that covers a vast array of tenants and individuals and regulations. And having given that advice to the pet shop, does it have to be complied with? No, it's purely advisory, it, it depends, depending on which piece of legislation, it depends upon the regulatory bodies, and in most cases that tends to be the District Councils, but it's Things are not as safe as I thought they were. Well, registration of children's homes. We give advice on suitable tenders, it's not up to us to make sure that they're enforced. It's up to Social Services, and Social Services may choose, although I have got to say it's unlikely, to register a children's or an elderly person's home despite the fact that we've given advice that they shouldn't. But I think we'll update not so much is over public authorities would probably take your advice, but I'm thinking of people who are not public authorities who might in a way suffer, that your advice may cause them some expense, and they might choose to delay it, and well I am guilty we can't afford to do that this year, so it never gets done. No but I mean let's be fair about these though, be fair to them, and in the erm, to see that they carry out your suggestions or advice is with the area local authorities, It, arrange to say that in our homes it's the responsibility of the County Council, or the Social Services Department, so really you're working together. Councillor , Yes, thank you Chair, I just wanted to add Hello Doctor Well what can I do for you Mrs ? my husband was here a fortnight ago, Duncan . He'd just been made redundant, and none of the two of us are sleeping at night. And you gave us ta you gave him a, you gave us tablets. Oh right. Right, I'm with you now. With you now. And even with the tablets? Still not sleeping, doctor. Still not sleeping? Right. Okay. There you go, just don't get them mixed up, aye. mixed up with the other one. I'm going to see the dermatologist at . What've you been doing to yourself? I'm all out in a an allergy. And Oh right. nobody can tell me what it is. So I was told to go to the dermatologist . You wouldn't see him . Right. Ah. .Two of these tablets, these are special ones for yourself. Mhm. Okay? Don't, don't give Duncan these ones. two of these at bedtime for yourself, and The ones I've given you have a slight effect on your skin as well. Mhm. Might stop the irritation as much as we can before you see the specialist Sheila. And Are they better? Because I'm . Aye. Aye. Th they'll certainly help to take the, the irritation Mhm. off the skin er these ones a you know as well as helping you to sleep, Mhm. these ones are purely and simply to let you pure, pure and simply to let him get a sleep. Er it came as a shock fifteen years. Oh aye. Aye. They don't take too kindly to it. No. Very few folk take kindly to it. something to see about as well Aha. because I've filled in a self-certified sick line, Mhm. and I'm now, it's just now I need a doctor's one. Mhm. There we are now. Cos that's a if you . I've not done that for years. I think everything's going . I think I'll Ah. Away you go and get turned into a human being. Right. my and just have a heart. On no. No, aye. We'll turn you into a human being yet. Alright Sheila. Thank you very much. Okay now. Right. Thank you. Sorry. So Are you ready then? Right? listen to what you've got to say. Thank you. Consumer accounts Good afternoon to you. I don't know whether it's ever occurred to you but it is act it is actually a bit intimidating to be confronted with a roomful of teachers like yourselves. Erm I, I feel as if you're gonna to say to me something like erm could do better, er see me. Or as it said on my school report for P E er tries hard but lacks stamina. I've always remembered that phr erm well now consumer affairs. consumer affairs are of course very important not only in retirement but throughout life. And consumer problems and consumer decisions are certainly not going to go away in retirement because we're all, including myself who retired at the March, are still going to be faced with consumer decisions. In retirement some of you may be thinking of erm having some improvement work done to your house. You may be thinking of moving house altogether and going to live in a different part of the country. You may be thinking of treating yourself to a holiday erm or something of that kind. And even if you're not contemplating any of those things, as I've said you're still going to be faced with decisions about goods that you want to buy and services that you want to buy for your home. Now you will know there are a great many er programmes on television nowadays and articles in newspapers and magazines designed to try to help us to be a bit more aware of what our rights are as shoppers and also what our responsibilities are as shoppers. And to help us to try to avoid some of the more obvious pitfalls to be avoided. But despite all those programmes on television and articles in newspapers and magazines the fact still remains, an awful lot of people do have problems when they go shopping. I'm sure you don't need me to tell you that. Erm things go wrong and there are many different reasons why things go wrong. People buy goods and then find, for one reason or another the goods are faulty, or they're unsatisfactory in some way and the customer then tries to get some kind of compensation. One of you was talking to me at er lunchtime and telling me that he recently bought er er a C D of Dvorak's Slavonic dances and when he played it it turned out to be some country and western music . Well we smile but I'm sure that's by no me I'm sure that's not a unique case and I'm sure things like that have happened to many of you. Erm so as I've said things go wrong. To give you an idea of how widespread the problem is the Trading Standards Department in Nottinghamshire er has set up three advice centres to help consumers with information and advice when you have problems like that. There's w one of those in Nottingham there's one in Newark and there's one in Mansfield. Now I imagine yo you come from all different parts of the county so I'd better tell you where they are. The Mansfield one is in Mansfield Market Square in the same building as the Citizen's Advice Bureau. Er the Newark one is on a road called Middlegate which those of you who know Newark will know is not far from Newark Market Square. Er the Nottingham one is on a road called Middle Pavement. If you're not quite sure where Middle Pavement is if you think of the rear exit of the Broadmarsh Centre, the escalator exit, the escalator brings you out onto a road called Middle Pavement which slopes quite steeply downhill. And there's Marks and Spencers at the bottom of the slope. Do you know where I mean now? Well if you walk up that hill keeping Marks and Spencers on your left hand side, the top part of the hill is called Middle Pavement and still on your left hand side you'll see a green sign, Trading Standards Advice Centre. And I think for many of you in this room that'll be the nearest Consumer Advice Centre to where you live. But in those three advice centres er we receive er in round figures we receive about four hundred complaints and enquiries about shopping problems, every week, all the year round. So to put it another way you could say in a typical year we would receive about twenty thousand complaints and enquiries about shopping. That's an awful lot of complaints. These are things like faulty shoes, faulty jeans, er faulty furniture, faulty cameras, faulty video machines, erm holidays which have gone disastrously wrong, complaints about double glazing, complaints about builders, plumbers, electricians, hairdressers. You name it. About twenty thousand a year in Nottinghamshire alone. Now you may think to yourself, goodness, what an awful lot of complaints. And of course it is. But you do have to put figures like that in some kind of perspective. Bear in mind that Nottinghamshire is quite a large county there are about one million people living in Nottinghamshire. Now most of those one million people will go to a shop of some kind pretty well, pretty well every day in your life. You might just pop to a corner shop to buy some chocolate and som box of matches, some sweets a magazine, a newspaper. Er all of us go to a shop of some sort pretty well every day. Now, including of course sundries. Now if you multiply that by the one million people living in Nottinghamshire you'll see that every day, all the year round, there are millions of sales taking place. Millions of transactions taking place. People buying and selling things. In the great majority of those cases nothing goes wrong. The customer goes away quite happy with their part of their transaction and the shop are quite happy with their part of it. And it's only in the minority of cases where things go wrong that come to the attention at the Trading Standards Department. Which means of course if you work for Trading Standards, as I did until very recently if you work for Trading Standards you tend to get a rather jaundiced view of shopping. All we ever hear about are disasters and complaints and things that have gone wrong. And we never hear about the thousands and thousands of sales that must take place every day where nothing's gone wrong at all. So Sounds like school. as I say Just like school. It does tend to get you rather jaundiced. And it is a refreshing change to t to talk to someone who's bought something from shop and they have no complaints whatever. Now as I say in round figures it's about twenty thousand just in this one county alone. Now what we have to do, in all those cases, is look at every one. First of all ask ourselves is this a genuine problem? Is it a real grievance? If it is how has it happened and who erm er who's to blame? Is it the customer's own fault? Is it the fault of the shop? Or are they both at fault? Quite honestly a lot of them do turn out to be the customer's own fault. You've probably heard the phrase the customer is always right but believe me it's not true. Er and anyone who works for Trading Standards will tell you it's not true. A lot of you'd be surprised how gullible a lot of people are and frankly a lot of shopping problems do turn out to be the shopper's own fault. For example a lot of people change their mind about wanting goods and decide I don't think I want that new pair of shoes after all. Or I don't think I want that new pair of jeans. I've taken a dislike to the colour. Er and what the law says is if you change your mind I'm afraid the law doesn't entitle you to anything at all. You're only entitled to money back if the goods are faulty in some way. There's got to be something actually wrong with the goods before you can claim money back. So there are a lot of people who change their mind. There are also a lot of people who damage or misuse things they bought from shops, usually clothes where people haven't bothered to read the washing instructions. And it might say do not dry clean and the customer has it dry cleaned and of course the garment is very likely going to be ruined. Or it might say hand wash only and the customer puts it in a washing machine. So again they wouldn't really be entitled to money back in cases like that. But there are a lot of problems which are the fault of the shop but we find these are usually caused by mistakes and misunderstandings. And we find that mistakes and misunderstandings are a far more common cause of complaint than deliberate dishonesty or someone trying to cheat you or rip you off. There are dishonest traders about unfortunately, just as I suppose there are dishonest people in most walks of life but we like to think that in Nottinghamshire they are in a s small minority. But they do exist. There are undoubtedly er rogues or cowboys about. Unscrupulous traders. Er and it is that minority of unscrupulous traders who make life very difficult for you and of course make life very difficult for Trading Standards. But most of the problems that we get are not caused by deliberate cheating, they're caused by genuine mistakes. What I'd like you to remember is this. People who work in shops are perfectly ordinary people, aren't they? Just like you and me. And we all make mistakes sometimes. Erm I freely admit that I do that myself. I've no doubt Bernard does. We all do. However efficient we think that we are, if we're honest with ourselves we have to admit we all sometimes make a mistake. And of course the same is true of shop assistants so do please make allowances for human error. And the next time you buy something from a shop and find there's something wrong with it don't just jump to conclusions that you've been deliberately cheated. You may have been of course. But it's much more likely to be due to human error. Now out of those four hundred complaints that we receive every week, if you take away all those which are the customer's own fault and all those which are caused by genuine mistakes you're still left with a lot of problems which are caused either by ignorance of the law or misinterpretation of the law. Do any of you know what the law is called that gives you your rights when you buy Consumer Protection Act. Sale of Goods Act. Pardon? Sale of Goods Act. Sale of Goods Act. Well done sir. Go to the top of the class. Sale of Goods Act. Right. Okay. Now, so, the name of the actual Act of Parliament is Sale of Goods Act er and that's the law that gives you and me and everybody in Britain our basic rights every time we buy something from a shop or in a sale or a market stall or by post through a mail order catalogue. It's called the Sale of Goods Act. Another phrase that's often used for the same thing is your statutory rights. So if you see that phrase written down anywhere you'll know it means Sale of Goods Act. That phrase, your statutory rights is often put in guarantees. I don't know whether you ever take the trouble to read the guarantee. I know a lot of people don't bother. For one thing they're often in very tiny print. For another they're often full of legal which is a bit difficult to sort out. But if you do read the guarantee you will nearly always find a sentence that says this guarantee does not affect your statutory rights. Have you ever noticed that? It's an interesting phrase that. You may have wondered well why is that phrase put in the guarantee? Well the reason it's put there is simply to remind you that the guarantee is always a plus or an extra. It's never intended to be a substitute or a replacement for your statutory rights. And even if you tore the guarantee up and threw it away erm a you've still statutory rights, anyway, given to you under the Sale of Goods Act. So a guarantee is totally separate and nothing to do really with your statutory rights. Now we've had a Sale of Goods Act in Britain for a long time. The first one came out in eighteen ninety three. So you could say for exactly a hundred years we've had a basic law designed to give us rights every time we go shopping. But despite the fact we've had that law for so long you'll find that not many people know about it . Erm it is if you like a closely guarded secret. Obviously the law has been updated since eighteen ninety three. The one we have now is called the Sale of Goods Act nin nineteen seventy nine. Now the Sale of Goods Act is good erm as far as it goes but it's by no means perfect and there are some loopholes in it that we'll have a look at in a moment. Right. So let's just have a look then at what our statutory rights are under the Sale of Goods Act. Erm and this is the reason why I brought this tape recorder, and I was saying to Bernard a moment ago, one of the most embarrassing things that can happen erm when talking to a group like this is when you pressed a button er whether it's a, a tape recorder a video machine or whatever, you pressed a button full of confidence in all the latest technology and there's an embarrassing silence. And I can, the number of times this has happened to me with school video machines is beyond belief. Erm I had one the other day where er it was s supposed to be, it was described as a brand new video machine and we got the most perfect picture, beautifully clear picture, but no sound whatever. Even when the sound button was pressed we couldn't get any sound volume m sound out of it whatever. So in the end I said to the chairman oh I'll, we'll leave the, we'll forget the video. I'll make do with slides. And I pressed the button of the slide projector again full of confidence. The first slide jammed straight away. Hopelessly jammed. And in trying to free the jammed slide the whole of the carousel tipped upside down and all my beautifully arranged slides all arranged the right way up and all in the right order all tipped all over the floor. So it was a pretty poor start really I felt to the talk. And then the class started to fight. And then the class started to fight. And I'm sure things like that don't happen in your school. Right. Er okay. Now. So we'll press this then full of confidence and see what happens. This is a typical problem that would come into one of our advice centres where a consumer has bought something,f failed to get any satisfaction from the shop and then has gone to the advice centre to er has found and tries to find the nearest Citizen's Advice Bureau or Advice Centre to try to get advice. Right. Well you all sat listening to that with riveted atten riveted attention . Erm let's just pause a moment there because there's a bit of legal language there that we need to sort out. First of all you will notice that the erm consumer adviser used the word contract which is an important word to remember. And I think that a lot of shoppers tend to forget that every time you buy anything from a shop, even if all you spent is ten pence, it doesn't matter how little money you've spent, but every time you buy anything from a shop you have a contract with the shop and the shop has a contract with you. As a result of that contract of course you have some rights er but the shop have some rights as well. I think one of the problems is, that a lot of shoppers don't realize that they're entering into a contract and we don't realize it for the simple reason that most people have, as soon as you hear the word contract you have a mental image of a legal document that you sign, don't you? If you, if you buy a house you sign a contract. And most people think that's what a contract is. But in shopping it's not like that is it? You wouldn't normally sign a legal document. Well I suppose you would if you were buying the goods on credit but normally, for an everyday transaction buying some food for example, you wouldn't normally sign a legal document. You might not even say anything if it's a self-service store. In a self-service store you choose the goods that you want. You take the goods to the checkout. You hand over your money at the checkout. The, the goods are then handed to you. You walk out of the shop and the goods are then your property. And it seems, on the face of it quite simple and quite straightforward doesn't it? But it's not as simple as it appears. Because just by that simple act of handing over your money at the checkout and receiving the goods in exchange, just by doing that, you have entered into a contract with the shop and as, as a result of that contract you've got the three rights which the consumer advisor mentioned on the tape. Let's, let's just have a look at what those phrases mean in plain Eng in plain English . Merchantable qualities. That phrase sounds a bit old-fashioned nowadays. The word merchantable isn't one that's, isn't normally used much today. It sounds old-fashioned because that's the phrase that's used in the original Sale of Goods Act of eighteen ninety three. I think today we would use a phrase like reasonable quality, satisfactory quality, or acceptable quality. So all that phrase means, in plain English, is that the goods should be of a reasonable standard and in particular it means that the goods should not be broken or damaged or faulty and whatever you've bought should work. It's very annoying isn't it if you buy something from a shop and find it won't work? Especially if you don't realize that till you've got, till you've got home and you realize you've got to go through all the hassle of going back to the shop to complain. So whatever you've bought shouldn't be broken or damaged or faulty and it should work. An example of that would be if you bought a new pocket calculator and then find it won't work then the legal position is the shop have broken their contract with you, because they've sold you a pocket calculator which is not of merchantable quality, and you should be entitled to money back in a case like that. But you, besides that you've got two other rights. You've got the right whatever you've bought should be as described, which brings us back to your problem of the C D described as Slavonic dances when really it was country and western. So again, the shop have broken their contract with you. Or if, what would be another example? If you bought some shoes described as leather and they turned out to be made of plastic then clearly you've bought some shoes which are not as described. A sheep if you buy a sheepskin coat from a market stall then it should be sheepskin not made of manmade fibres and not made of any other animal. Fit for the purpose. That phrase always makes me smile because er my wife recently bought a pair of tights with three legs in the tights. And I assure you she would have every right to go back to the shop and say look these tights are not fit for their purpose. Er but seriously that phrase doesn't just mean fit for the purpose in the general sense, it also means fit for the purpose in any particular sense you had made known to the shop. For example if you went into a bicycle shop and said can you sell me a bike suitable for a seven year old child? Well that, I think that was a quite specific request. Or if you went into a D I Y shop, not me because I'm the world's worst D I Y person. But if you did and said can you sell me some erm emulsion paint, which is non-drip, and they sell you some matt paint, which drips, then clearly they've sold you something which was not fit for the purpose that you had specified. So those three things are called your statutory rights and you've got them as long as you buy the goods from a shop or a trader or someone who's in business. Alright? Erm but, and this is a very big but, if you buy privately erm you don't have those three rights any more. Buying privately means if you buy from an ordinary member of the public not a shop. For example the classified ads column in the Nottingham Evening Post. The column where people advertise second hand bikes, second hand sewing machines, second hand cars and all the rest of it. Where you're not buying from a trader, you're buying from an ordinary member of the public. We call that buying privately. If you buy privately you lose that right straight away. And you also lose that. So what it means is if you buy privately instead of having three statutory rights you've only got one. So you'll see straight away erm by buying privately your, your legal protection is far more limited than it was before. A good example of that is a car. If you buy a second hand car from a car dealer you would have your three statutory rights under the Sale of Goods Act. But a lot of people buy a second hand car privately, and there are pages of these in the Nottingham Evening Post every day you know where people are paying a few hundred pounds, or it may be a few thousand pounds, for a second hand car. Now if you do that the only right you've got, in law, is that the car should be as described. That would mean that any statement made about the car should ha w should be true. For example a statement about the number of miles it's done, or the number it's had. Those statements should be true but erm you wouldn't have the right that it was of merchantable quality. So you'll see straight away, frankly, you haven't got much legal protection if you buy privately. And if you do buy a car privately and it turns out to have problems with it, there is very little, if anything the Trading Standards Department could do to help you. Erm simply because your rights are so limited. Could I just a Yes. ask a question there? Yes. Do. difference between a trader and a private person. Yes. You know you read the, the columns and you buy a second hand car and you buy one this week and you read the column next week Yes. and you see the same telephone number,you know different model Well it is and so it goes on. it is sim because of the big difference between the Sales Of Goods Act and buying privately, for that reason it is an offence for a trader erm to pretend not to be a trader. If I can put it that way. Now you'll find there are a lot of perfectly honest traders in the Evening Post and the honest ones have put T in brackets to indicate that they are a trader. Now an unscrupulous one will, as I've said, will pretend not be a trader. Now that is an offence and the Trading Standards keep a very, and, and of course the Evening Post themselves, keep a very close check on those phone numbers and it's much easier to do it nowadays with computers. We keep a close check on all those phone numbers to find out, are there any traders masquerading as private sellers. But that's an important point. But do remember, what we've talked about so far is the Sale Of Goods Act. But when buying a car, or anything from a trader, you are also protected by another law called the Trade Descriptions Act which, and we've had that law since nineteen sixty eight. So we've had that law for a long time. What the Trade Descriptions Act says is it's a criminal offence for any trader to describe his goods in a false or misleading way. Okay? So if for example a dishonest car dealer said bargain, thirty thousand miles only, when really it had done ninety thousand miles then that would be a criminal offence under the Trade Descriptions Act. Because he's claiming the car is something which it clearly is not. Or if a jeweller said, you know, the rings in my window are made of gold when really they were not made of gold at all, then that would be a false trade description. On the streets of Nottingham, just before last Christmas, there was some street traders selling coats er which they described as sheepskin. We suspected they were not made of sheepskin at all er and we took some of them away and analyzed them to find out what exactly are they made of. And they turned out to be made of manmade fibres. So those gentlemen were not only infringing the Sale of Goods Act they were committing a criminal offence as well by infringing the Trade Descriptions Act so they ended up being prosecuted by Trading Standards. But I, I do feel the Trade Descriptions Act is a is a very important er piece of consumer protection designed of course to protect not only you and me as consumer but also designed to protect traders against unfair trading practices. Excuse me. Can you tell me erm how that applies, say if you went and bought an i article of clothing from a market stall Yes. and there were no facilities for you try it on Yes. and when you got it home you found it didn't fit? Yes. What are your rights then? If you buy from a market stall that counts as b that counts in exactly the same way as buying from any other er high street retailer. So in other words you're covered by the, well you're covered by both the Sale of Goods Act and the Trade Descriptions Act. So, but where I know it is a bit difficult with clothes because a market stall erm you don't, you don't normally get a chance to try the clothes on erm and you're never absolutely sure are these clothes, is this garment going to fit or not? So I, I always think it, feel it's a good idea to say to the stallholder, stallholder look, erm if I take this home and try it on and find it won't, doesn't fit can I bring it back? And if I can what are you going to offer me? And I think it's much better to get a clear understanding from the market stall at that stage rather than leave it till later. Okay? M I mean, let's be fair I mean most of the stallholders that I've found in Nottinghamshire erm are perfectly honest and reputable and many of them been there many years anyway. And of course if they're doing the job probably should be licensed by the local authority in any case. The real problem comes, not from market stalls, the real problem comes from these people who sell things out of suitcases. You know alleged to be gold or silver from suitcases. Now what should make you very suspicious is a soon as a policeman appears they disappear like lightning. Now that, that should w alert you that, hallo, there's something very fishy here. So do be very wary please about buying anything from a street trader. Now let's just have a look at some problem areas. Er oh, before we do that let's just n just listen to a few more seconds of this tape. So I think you'll agree those two things are important as well. That if you change your mind remember you're not entitled to anything. And the other point made by the consumer adviser is try to have a good look at what you've chosen before you walk out of the shop. Now I know that's easier said than done. You can't always do it but try to if you can. Because what the Sale of Goods Act goes on to say is that if the goods contain a fault which is so obvious you should have noticed the fault while you were in the shop, or the shop assistant pointed out the fault to you while you were in the shop, then I don't think you can really demand money back on that basis. So what it means is, you've got to have wits about you when you go shopping haven't you? I'm sure you've said this to your, your class before now. Use your wits. Use your commonsense. Use your gumption as they say in Yorkshire and above all pay attention to the way in which the goods are described to you. If the goods are described to you as seconds, shopsoiled, slightly imperfect, if any phrase like that is used I think your own commonsense should tell you there's something wrong with these goods and that presumably is the reason why they're reduced in price. You've just answered the question. I've just answered the question, okay. So the way in which goods are described's important. Now then erm time is an important part of shopping problems isn't it? People often say to me how much time have I got in which I can complain about faulty goods? Er and I wish I could give you, you know, a nice clear cut, definite answer but the Sale of Goods Act is rather vague on that point. And that I think, I feel is one of the loopholes in the Sale of Goods Act, because it doesn't lay down a definite time limit. All it says is if you do buy something from a shop and realize it's faulty, what you should do is take it back to the shop who sold it to you, together with your receipt if you've still got it or some other proof of purchase. Do that as soon as you can and within a reasonable time, says the Sale of Goods Act. Now the problem comes of course, well that's all very well but how do you define what is a reasonable time? Because I think, what is a reasonable time, is going to vary from one product to another. With shoes, I would say you'd normally know pretty quickly. Are the shoes faulty or not? Because if the shoes are faulty they're going to pretty quickly feel very uncomfortable. With shoes I think you're going to know pretty quickly. But if it's something mechanical, like a car, erm stereo equipment, erm a home computer something like that, a washing machine, it could be a long time before a mechanical fault became apparent. So what is a reasonable time to complain will, I think, vary from one product to another. So the only general advice I can give you is you do need to act promptly. If you find some if you realize you've bought something and it's faulty return it to the shop who sold it to you as soon as you can. The quicker you do that the better chances will be of getting your money back. But the longer you leave it the worse your chances are going to get . Because there must come a point somewhere in time where the shop will say well you've now had these goods so long they're no longer our responsibility. They're your responsibility. If we take the simple example of shoes. If, if you buy a p a new pair of shoes and realize they're faulty and you go back the next day and say I bought these shoes from you yesterday, I've still got my receipt, I believe the shoes are faulty, can I have my money back? I think you'll agree you're in a much stronger position that if you left it for months, and then went back. You know I think that weak does weaken your case considerably. So time is an important part of all this. Erm I've got a heading here, sales. A lot of people here think they have no rights when buying goods in a sale and it's quite mistaken to think that, you've still, even though you bought the goods in a sale you should still have your three statutory rights. In fact as far as the law is concerned it's really irrelevant that you bought the goods in a sale. All that matters as far as the law is concerned is, did you buy the goods from a shop? If you did, are the goods faulty? And were they faulty at the time that you the shop sold then to you? That's all that really matters as far as the law is concerned. Erm it is quite unfair, and illegal, for a shop to try to duck out of their responsibilities to you by pointing to a sign that says no refunds, no money refunded. No money refunded on sale goods. All those signs are illegal. And when you think about it they must be illegal, cos if a shop puts up a sign saying no money refunded they are, are trying to take away your statutory rights. You should always be entitled to a refund provided the goods are faulty. That's the point. So don't be put off by a sign that says no money refunded. They, they pardon? What about the ones where they say well we'll repair it for you? Or we'll put it right for you? Well they can certainly offer you a repair, and of course if you wish to have a repair done that's entirely up to you. You can choose that if you wish. But if the goods are faulty what you're entitled to by law is money back. A cash refund in other words. So that you're, in other words you either, you're, by having the money back in your hand you are then restored to the position you were in before you bought the goods in the first place. All you're en all you can insist on, all you can demand is money back. Now if the shop want to offer you an alternative that's up to them and you can of course accept if you wish. Erm but all you can demand is money back. Okay? S some shops put conditions on that, don't they? The they say things like no refunds given unless you produce a valid receipt. Now when I shop Well I keep the valid, a receipt Yeah. and I've realized that. I'm asking what's the legal position in that? I think, I think a shop, if you look at from the shop's point of view erm I think it is quite understandable and natural that they would, they would either like a receipt or at least they would like to see some evi Proof of purchase. some evidence Mm. that you bought the goods from them, I think that's reasonable. Yes I, I, I accept Erm that. I just Yeah. wondering what the legal position was on that. Are they legally entitled to say that in fact? They are legally entitled to say either a receipt or some other evidence of purchase . Right. Fine But what I'm, what I'd like to stress to you is don't abandon hope erm sounds like a religious text actually. Don't abandon hope just because you think oh dear, I can't find my receipt. Mm. Because in practice there are alternative ways of proving purchase aren't there? Mm. I mean if you've still got the original bag or the wrapper or, or the box or the price Yeah. tag. In practice a lot of shops will accept that. If you paid by cheque or credit card, again you would have some evidence that you spent that money. We had a problem with the electrical place, Dixons erm over something rather different like that. We bought our daughter a, a cassette player one Christmas erm she opened it, threw the box away. Four days later it packed up. Dixons refused to exchange it because we didn't return it in the original packaging. They did exchange it in the end but I had to be very insistent and it took three months. Mm. Mm. They said that I should return it in its box, with the receipt. I didn't have the box. I did have the D receipt. You did have the receipt? Oh yes. Well I, I think that should have been sufficient myself . Mm. It was in the end but it took Yeah. letters to Head Office to Yes. do it. Yes. And I think you'll agree, it is a difficult I mean I always stress this point about attitude, that a lot of problems that we get in our advice centres have been made worse because the customer has caused er you know argument or a scene Mm. in the shop. Erm and it does make it very difficult then for Trading Standards then to pick up the pieces. And I know it's very easy for me to stand here and say you know try to keep calm and polite and reasonable. And that brings us back to your point, that there are times when you, you, you know you have, in order to get your statutory rights you've got to be pretty firm. And I feel that it, it is a difficult bala in practice it is difficult balance to achieve, to be polite, but to be firm at the same time erm but and there are times when that has to be done. . Now while we're on this point about what exactly am I entitled to, erm we ought to say a word about credit notes cos there are a lot of shops who say well erm you know it is it isn't company policy to, it isn't our policy to offer refunds, but we're quite happy to offer you a credit note. A lot of customers accept that because they don't really know what their statutory rights are. But that brings us back to the point we were stressing a moment ago, if the goods are faulty you're entitled to money back, a cash refund. Er you need only accept a credit note if the problem is your own fault in some way. For example if you've changed your mind and decide you didn't want the goods or if you had damaged the goods and the shop offer you a credit note, I think you really have to accept that with good grace, cos it is really your fault. But if the goods are faulty you'd have the right to decline the credit note and ask for money back. I if I could just come in there you mentioned this er if you changed your mind on goods, and you seemed to be defining the legal position. You've got you know some of the well known er shops like Marks and Spencers who will take things back and don't ask for a . Yes. Is this just Yes. a matter of customer ? With Marks and Spencers it is a matter of customer relations. They, they are going beyond what they have to do by law, and all credit to them for doing that. But the reason why they do that of course is they would like you to keep coming back and trading with them as a happier and satisfied customer. After all a reputable retailer doesn't want a lot of dissatisfied customers walking about. He'll want you, quite naturally, to keep on trading with him. But, and, but Marks and Spencers are really going, and there are plenty of other firms beside them who do it, but they are going beyond what they strictly have to do by law. Er but there are of course h n while we're on that point there are, I'm afraid, there are s people who take advantage of Marks and Spencers, erm because they know there's going to be no problem about having goods exchanged so what they do, they buy something from Marks and Spencers wear it on one evening for, for a party or special occasion take it back the next day and it's th they get the money back Now none of you would dream of doing anything like that. Thank you for that. I'll Erm with, with sales Yes. er very often in the shop it says no refund on, on sale goods Yeah. now i if that is strictly wrong why do the shops put the sale notices up? Well as I've said signs like that are illegal. If you do see a sign like that please, or any words that mean the same thing, like no refunds, no money refunded, no money refunded on sale goods any of those phrases, will you please let Trad your nearest Trading Standards Office know. And we will get the sign taken down. They are, are allowed to put a sign that say no goods exchanged. Or it might say no sale goods exchanged. That's, that's okay, that's within the law. But no money refunded is not within the law. Alright? Mm. So do please let, bring it to the attention of Trading Standards. Since, yes, since you can't exchange the goods then No because you don't have a legal right to have the goods exchanged. But you can take it back and say I want my money? You can. Yes. Yeah. Erm but there are a few what I call golden rules to avoid becoming one of these four hundred people every week who come into our advice centre . I would say golden rule number one is keep receipts. Very important. Unfortunately you can't insist on having a receipt because there's no law that says shops have got to give receipts. Perhaps there ought to be a law like that, but there isn't at the moment. So you can't demand one but you can always ask way round that? You can say can I have a receipt please? There is one way round that. Right. If they're VAT registered Yeah. and you insist on a VAT receipt VAT receipt. Yes. they have got to give you one. Okay? Er it is important as I've said about, we were talking a moment ago Pardon? about evidence of purchase. No. Erm They have got to give a receipt It is important because if you do buy something from a shop and realize there's something wrong with it, if you take it back the first thing the shop would say to you is can I see your receipt? Or they may say have you any proof of purchase? You don't need to hoard them for years, I know some people who hoard receipts for years. Every five years or so have a glorious clear out and throw all the old Y you don't need to get to quite to those lengths but er you certainly do need to keep them for a while. What I mean by that is er try to have a good look at what you've chosen before you walk out the shop. Now that was the point I made a few moments ago. Legal documents, by that I mean be very wary of signing any kind of legal document in a shop. Let's take the example of a cooker. If you decide you want to a buy a new cooker and you go to the Gas Showrooms or the Electricity Showrooms and say I'd like to buy that cooker there and I would like to spread the payments over time, normally nowadays twenty four months or thirty six months. Nothing wrong with that it's a perfectly er respectable and reputable way of shopping, provided of course you know what you're doing and you d you don't get carried away. But, but a lot of the problems that come into our advice centre have been caused by people signing erm credit agreements and then realizing they can't afford the payments. Now to go back to the example of the cooker, if you do say that in the showrooms you will certainly be asked to sign a legal document. A credit agreement. But be very careful, because once you've signed it it becomes a legally binding document it will be very difficult to back out of it. You'll need a solicitor to get out of it believe me. If you sign the document in your own home, as you would do with a doorstep salesman, er then the law does give you a chance to change your mind, although I hope for goodness sake you would all be very wary about signing any kind of legal document thrust under your nose from a doorstep salesman. But if you did that the law does give you what they call a cooling off period. What a lovely phrase. They give you a cooling off period of seven days in which you can change your mind, have second thoughts, and cancel the credit agreement. But you don't have that privilege, I'm afraid, if you sign it in Gas Showrooms, Electricity Showrooms or a shop so be very careful Or Tenerife. Or Tenerife. So do be very careful about that. Right. Now the case of checking, the case of checking the goods number two there. Yes. That's increasingly difficult these days with shrink-wrapping and It is. I agree. Yes. And it always annoys me when I want to buy a shirt, that men's shirts are usually all sealed up in a package with a multitude of pins Yeah. and it's very difficult to have a close look at the shirt without taking the whole thing to Mm. pieces. So you take it pieces. But er You can it to pieces I don't w I don't want the package did that What all I wanted . Yes. But if you can do that try and do that. Now this leaflet which I'm going to give you in a moment er is called How To Put Things Right which i i is quite a good title for a leaflet like this. How to put things right. But perhaps a better title might be how to prevent things going wrong, on the argument you know that prevention is better than cure and rather than trying to put problems right which have already happened, it might be better to try to prevent them happening in the first place. And I do feel that by just following a few simple rules like that we can avoid a lot of the problems that come into our advice centre. Now I want to allow a bit more time for questions so I'll just end if I may with a funny story which, didn't happen to me, it happened to a colleague of mine, erm a young lady, who went to give er a talk like this to group of adults like yourselves and at the end of the meeting the treasurer went up to her and said do we owe you any fee or expenses? No thank you she said. No fee and no expenses. Ah, thank you very much, she said we're very appre very much appreciate the fact that you've given up your time to come and talk to our members you see we can't afford to pay for really good speakers whereupon of course she off . Right. Well thank you very much for listening and if there are any more questions I'll be very pleased to . Okay. Thanks John. Right. Finally Th the legal documents you know th going back to the cooker. Do you have the right to take the documents out to look at them a and read them? Because if you're buying something like Yes. that in a shop it's extremely difficult to go through all the Yes. bits and pieces and Mm mm. Yes. realize what you're doing. But if I remember correctly on one of the progr on television going back sort of two three months ago, one of the firms, and I think it was an electrical firm, was working a bit of a swift one erm they were getting people to sign a document which purported I think to be erm l l loaning money, hire agreement. But it wasn't actually, it were something else, and people were finding that their goods were repossessed because they couldn't keep up the payments. Mm. Now can you take the documents ? Certainly and I, that's a good very point, a very good question. Erm let's face it it can be very tempting when the salesman thrusts the document under your nose, just sign here sir or just sign here madam, just a formality you understand, erm we'll fill in we'll fill in the details later. It's very, it's very tempting, especially if it's something that you badly want as happened to me recently when I'd set my heart on buying a new erm video recorder. And I thought to myself if all I've got to do is put my signature on this piece of paper and without actually paying any money down, any cash down at all, I can a actually walk out of the shop carrying the video recorder. And it is very tempting when you've set your heart on something like that. And v very tempting indeed. But you're, but you're quite right you, you certainly, you certainly have the right to say look, you know, rather than signing this now er I do need some time to think I mean let's face it there's a load of s If you turn it over on the back of the credit agree Systems developing in the N H S. The programme went on to produce the evidence, the minister Come on carry on, carry on The programme went on to produce such evidence including a two tier system for radiotherapy treatment where patients were Hear, hear. treated not Has the minister indicated Madam Speaker, this is my point of order, whether or not he intends to come before the house to acknowledge the reality of the two tier system and to admit he has been misleading the house. Order,or or or order, order, the honourable lady would not expect me to comment on something that has been on television, er in something that I I have no er I I didn't even see last night, it's up to the minister whether he wishes to come and make a statement it is really not at all a point of order for me. Mr Riddock. Thank you. Can you just confirm that it's never been the practice to have an oral statement in this house on er prescription charges, neither under this Conservative government nor indeed under the pre previous Labour government who were always deeply embarrassed by increasing prescription charges. If the honourable gentleman looks at the official report tomorrow, he will see that the h leader of the house has dealt with that point. Yes Mr Winnick. Speaker you are aware of course of the severe weather which affects most of the country and what I want to ask you Madam Speaker is simply this. In view of the agonizing difficulties faced by so many elderly people on very low incomes, is there any way this house, this week, can ask the minister to make a statement whether the cold weather payments could be made and all the red tape regulations removed because those payments are not made unless there are seven days of freezing weather and it does seem to me, the welfare of your old should have first priority. Hear, hear. The honourable gentlemen is asking me for procedural advice across floor of the house, which he knows that I do not volunteer. Yes, Miss Mead. Further to the first point of order, is it an order for the press to hear about the proposed rise in prescription charges before this house and wouldn't it have not been better if the Secretary of State to come and made a statement and we could have questioned her about it. I did deal with that matter er originally and I believe that the the state, the er answer to the question was available precisely at three thirty today. Yes Mr C was it Mr Gilfore, yes. Madam speaker. I I've just received a fax of a letter sent to the leader of Liverpool City Council,coun er councillor Harry Rimmer by the right honourable member for Sutton Coldfield, in which he invites him to join an organisation called team two thousand er and as part of this invitation he's invited to attend functions and briefings at Westminster, er at which cabinet m er ministers ministers e cabinet members ministers members of parliament, will be present. My point of order is is it i is it er in order Madam Speaker for ministers of the crown to abuse an office like this by inviting people here for party fund raising purposes. Er, the the the er er the fax in the first instance has been sent by a back bench member of this house who is not a minister, but I may tell the honourable gentleman that I get all sorts of things from mail shots inviting me to all er manner of functions, all of which find their way into the waste paper basket. Erm . Madam Speaker, arising out of question time today, the leader of the house the leader of the house told the house that the Prime Minister has made a further statement on the back to basics policy, now since this has er we are told er permeated the whole of government policy since the prime minister's speech to the party conference last October, isn't it time er that the Prime Minister was asked not to give statements to correspondents and at er press conferences, but made a statement to this house about the back to basics policy and at the very least, placed a copy of his speech and his thinkings on the back to basics policy in the library. Hear, hear. Prime Minister is normally here a couple of times a week to answer questions maybe the honourable gentleman will catch my eye one time very soon, he can put that to the Prime Minister himself. Yes, Mr Wilson. I, on a point of order Madam Speaker, I understand that a major announcement in connection with rail privatisation is being made at this moment by way of written answer and press conference erm the statement will reveal a huge increase in access charges for railway operators and ultimately therefore huge increases in costs for tax payers and passengers. Madam Speaker, this announcement is now almost a year delayed the firm of Coopers and Lybrand have been paid one point six million pounds to come up with this ass access charging fiasco, surely this house in entitled to the, as entitled as the press to a full statement of the government's intentions so that they can be answered by. O o o o order, the honourable gentleman will recall that er in an earlier point of order I've already ruled on that matter. It is for ministers to determine themselves, whether they answer by means of a written question or whether they make an oral statement. That it is over something over which I have no control. I I've already made a ruling on that, on that point. I think we must now move on, er yes Mr . Speaker, is there some sanction that the chair can take against honourable members of this house persistently raising bogus points of order. Er er that that o o order, order, it's a very good question er but I fear not that it is up to individual members themselves to exercise some restraint and to and to u order, order, and to use the procedures of this house properly and correctly and not to abuse them. Yes Mr Cryer. Er Madam Speaker,I understand the position you ma you the point you make about er ministers det er determining whether they're going to make a statement by an oral statement or by a written parliament question, but surely the speaker does have power if he or she so determines to summon er a minister here and particularly if there's pressure in parliament to require a minister to come here and make a statement, that must be right. Otherwise how could speaker Lentor tell the King that the speaker on that's on that occasion could only be instructed by parliament. Surely ministers are inferior to parliament, not superior to a speaker. O order, order, as the honourable gentleman is fully aware, is fully aware, the speaker of this house has no authority whatsoever in demanding that ministers come here and make statements. It is for ministers themselves to decide whether they do that, the speaker has no authority in in determining that. Yeah mis Mr Banks. Madam Speaker we understand that er the Tory whips are busily arranging marriages for certain of their members opposite. Would it be in order if such marriages are arranged for them to be co-joined er downstairs in St. Stephens crypt? that is barely barely a point of order for me. I think on that note we might now pass on er to er presentation of bills. Ray Mickey. Referendum Scotland bill. Second reading what day? Eleventh of March. Friday the eleventh of March. Mr Harry Cohen. Marriage amendment bill. Second reading, what day? Friday the eleventh of March . Friday the eleventh of March. rule motion, Mr Harry Barnes. I beg to move that lead beginning did beg given to bring in a bill to extend and improve methods of electoral registration and to allow disabled people to gain access to polling stations. My bill falls into two parts, one which deals with the need for a full franchise it is sometimes mistakenly believed that we already have a full franchise in this country, but whereas legislation was passed in the past in order to extend the franchise, in recent years we have let matters slip considerably on the methods that are used for registration and no longer can we claim to have that full franchise. The second part of the bill is to provide er access for disabled people and others to polling stations. For even if we achieve the objective of a full franchise then the purpose of that full franchise will not work for disabled people if they don't have full access to polling stations, they only then have the alternative of using postal or proxy votes and not exercising their franchise in the same way that able-bodied people er will do and their full right are part of the measure that I'm seeking the house to agree that I should pursue. What's wrong with the current methods of electoral registration? Well, there are millions of people who are missing from electoral registers, who are people who are entitled to be registered and the problem is probably the greatest among those who are known as attainers and are qualifying for registration at eighteen for the first time in their lives, the numbers of attainers er qualifying has reduced percentage wise, year by year, especially since the introduction of the poll tax and has not been rectified by the measures that remove the poll tax. In official figures it is shown that only ninety five percent of people who are eligible to be registered in England and Wales appear upon electoral registers. In London the figure is only eighty eight point four percent but even the ninety five percent figure and the eighty eight four percent figures are artificially inflated because those elements include people who have died and not have not been removed from the register, people who have emigrated, people who have otherwise moved to other parts of the country and who it is unreasonable to expect will all be seeking to make use of postal or proxy vote facilities. There's a great deal of double counting that takes place, it might be that some honourable members in this house actually appear upon two registers, one in London and one within the area in which they reside, normally within their constituency and many people are merely carried over from past registers, without any serious canvassing taking place to find out whether they are the people to be on the registers or whether someone else should be put in their place. We also have a mobile disenchanted society in which people do get on their bikes, move around from bedsitter to bedsitter with growing elements of homelessness and there are serious problems about registration. The office of census, populations and surveys estimates that three point four million people in England and Wales alone are missing from electoral registers. Probably four million people in the United Kingdom and a million alone in greater London. The method we use is outdated. We have a qualifying date for registration of October the tenth and the registers come into operation on February the sixteenth, registers are coming into operation tomorrow. They last for a year, so by the qualifying date has been acted upon, registers are sixteen months old by they are finished with. The Hansard society has shown that a register, an average register, is likely to be sixteen percent out by the end of the its life. Now my bill will seek to tackle this serious problem by introducing a rolling register that would allow addition and deletions of names as poo people move. It would provide for extra authority and resources for electoral returning officers. So that housing movement information, details of deaths that are registered, information from statutory undertakings. Ex exchanges er with information from other electoral returning officers and regular canvassing take place. All these to be subject to strict confidentiality rules so that the information is to be used for electoral returning purposes only. Registers will roll until elections are announced and then when elections are announced it will be the closing date for that particular election and polling cards will immediately be issued with massive publicity around them so that people who don't get polling cards, discover that they're not on registers and will still have time because they've qualified by the qualifying date to get themselves entered onto registers within a week of the election taking place. Afterwards the registers will continue to roll. There will still be required annual registration but this will be more of a check upon the existing state of the rolling register and will supply extra information that can be acted upon by the electoral returning officer. When it comes to access to polling stations this will require accessibility audits to be undertaken by electoral returning officers. Full consultations with relevant voluntary organisations representing disabled people. Bodies such as Links and the Spastic Society which produce quite a substantial report at the last election to illustrate what the problems were then there will be established designated polling stations in which there will be various characteristics required such as wheelchair access, unaided wheelchair access, although the problem of accessibility is for more people than those people who are in wheelchairs and many people who are not registered disabled and are mainly old and infirm, should have the opportunity to exercise their franchise readily and easily. Designated accessible polling stations, er will themselves have to cover fifty percent or so of a constituency initially and people will be allowed to have access to a designated station if their own station is one that has not qualified at that time, although the aim will be a hundred percent designated er polling stations with full access. Now the point about this measure is how will the Secretary of State for home affairs, respond to this proposal because this is a re-run, this ten minute ruled bill, of the bill that I introduced last year under the private members bill procedure in which the er junior minister that is currently at the despatch box, said that he accepted the principals of seeking to achieve full registration but felt that the measure itself was premature, premature in that the Home Office were investigating er numbers and matters concerned with the electoral registration and electoral provision, arising from experience at the last general election but I think it was beginning to be accepted that the poll tax had had a serious impact upon the electoral register although there were many other er elements that provided great difficulty. What we now need to ask is has the time arrived er for this measure to begin to be acceptable by the Home Office, it would be nice if there was a just a little indication er as I'm er proceeding through er this measure from the minister at the despatch box, that the time was now right for this er particular proposal er which was not anything that was voted against er on second reading but merely failed to overcome the hurdle of getting a closure when by seventy eight votes to nil er it was carried except that carrying was not sufficient in order arrive at a closure so that the measure could move in the committee. Now it would maybe not be appropriate if there was to be an alternative government bill that would deal with these type of matters er in front of us and please to say that when I read out the list of sponsors, it'll be shown there are people from all parties, or all parties in Britain in this house, who are true democrats. The the question is that honourable member to bring in his bill say aye. Aye. they ayes 'ave it, the ayes 'ave it. Who will confirm bring in the bill? Mr Robert McLellan Mrs Margaret Ewing Doctor Norman Godman Mr Dafydd Wigley Mr Richard Sheppard, Mr David Crimble, Alice Mahon, Mr David Alton, Mr Bill Mickey and myself. Can't be bad can it? Representation of the people amendment bill. Seconded in what day ? Friday May the twentieth. the twentieth, thank you. Now come to motions one and three representation of the people Mr. Mr speaker I beg to move that the draft European parliamentary constituency's England order nineteen ninety four erm the draft European parliamentary constituency's Wales order nineteen ninety four which were laid before the house on the twentieth of January together with the draft European parliamentary election changes to the franchise and qualification of representatives regulations nineteen ninety four which were laid on the second of February, be approved. First I shall deal with the two constituencies orders which establish new boundaries for the European parliamentary constituencies. These two orders give effect to the recommendations contained in the reports of the European parliamentary constituencies committee for England and the similar er er parliamentary constituencies committees for Wales respectively. The two committees were set up under the provisions of the European parliamentary elections act nineteen ninety three, to carry out the task of determining the European parliamentary constituencies into which England and Wales should initially be divided to give effect to the increase, the section one of that act, made to the number of constituencies. I I'm very grateful to the minister but I want to ask him a straightforward question. There is the suggestion that France may not promulgate the additional seats. If that was so, and we today have passed these orders, would it require new primary legislation to reinstate the old boundaries er which would be necessary if I understand, France refuses to advance the additional seats which were agreed as part of the Maastricht negotiations. The honourable gentleman said that was a straight question, I shall give him a straight answer, er no it wouldn't, er if I can return to the line of er explanation I was giving Mr Deputy Speaker. If I may remind the house of the background to this. Agreement was reached at the European council at Edinburgh in December nineteen ninety two that the European parliament should be enlarged by allocating additional seats to some member states. The primary reason for this was the large increase er in the population of Germany arising out of the reunification of country. Eighteen extra seats have therefore been allocated to Germany to take account of the increased electric there. The United Kingdom received six extra seats under the agreement, of these six, five have been allocated to England and one to Wales, which the government, in a moment, which the government believes is the fairest distribution on an arithmetical basis. I give way. Would my honourable friend be able to explain why it was that in the run up to negotiations with respect to the question of increase in the number of seats er, the German government made it quite clear that they were not interested or didn't want to have the additional number of seats and then subsequently, for reasons that have never been fully explained, we then found that er they had an additional eighteen. Could my honourable friend explain how that came about? Well, no I can't give er my honourable friends the ins and outs of the negotiations. Suffice as it's to say that the negotiations did provide for extra seats for Germany in account of the additional population that accrued to Germany from the reunification of East and West Germany and er er at the same time the opportunity was taken to allot some extra seats to some other countries er which erm bore in mind er more closely than before, the respective differences in population sizes of the various countries that make up the community, er the two special committees that I referred to Mr Deputy Speaker, were set up in July nineteen ninety three. They followed as far as possible in the time available, the practices and procedures of the permanent parliamentary boundary commission, indeed of the six members of the committees, five were members of the parliamentary boundary commissions and they were appointed to the committees after consultation with the opposition parties. The committees had to work to a very tight timetable. They published provisional recommendations last September and allowed one month for representations and counter proposals to be made. Copies of all the counter proposals and representations were then placed on local deposit in council offices and a further period allowed for representations to be made about them. The committees made their final recommendations to my right honourable and learned friend just before Christmas. In making those recommendations they made clear they took into account the recommend the representations made and views expressed to them whilst complying with the statutory requirement that they should aim to recommend the European parliamentary constituencies with as nearly as possible equal electorates. Although I recognise that they may not have pleased everybody, an aim which I think the house would agree, would be impossible to achieve, I believe they have carried out their task in an objective and impartial way. The orders therefore give effect without modification to their recommendations and I hope the house will approve them. Er may I turn now to the regulations before the house. it's just I did want clarification on that point and I didn't quite understand the answer. If the French do not proceed erm as they are indicating, what happens then to the status of our own constituencies. Do we have the constituencies as were before the additional six seats or do we continue with the constituencies with the additional seats. We we we're empowered er by these orders to set up the new constituencies, er they do not actually come into effect to enable the elections to be held upon them er until all the countries of the E E C have agreed the changes that are necessary to accommodate the new numbers that er they will be having, er so the act, the ninety three act, has a commencement hour within it. The commencement power er will not be put into effect by the Home Secretary until he knows that the other countries have accommodated themselves to the new arrangements. Er, if they don't, the commencement will not take place and we will continue on the existing boundaries, that would, and I'll give way to my honourable friend in a moment, that of course would create massive inconvenience, I see no er real reason why the other states er which have yet to ratify should not do so er but my honourable friend I think wanted to intervene with a further thought on this point so I give way to her. No, all I was curious to know was, er the commencement yes, but I mean w could you take it right up to the sort of the tapes until the day before the elections, or what would be the limit on that? Yes we could do so it would be a matter of judgement for the er er for the Home Secretary how far to take it and he would have to balance the likelihood of er other countries all ratifying and the inconvenience to those taking part in the election here er if er there is some uncertainty to the end and maybe having to revert to the current constituencies, er I hope and expect that these matters will be settled in the next few weeks. I think the er the Home Secretary will be becoming increasingly concerned er if there isn't a a conclusion by mid April but I think maybe er honourable friends on both sides of the house may want to onto when the last date should be. But there is no late date set into the legislation, only that ratification when it is required means that from the first of the following month then the elections on the new constituency boundaries may take place under the new er European rules so that a decision is of course for an election in June er is in fact needed by the first of May. Very difficult after that. minister's well aware, this is causing considerable concern amongst the small percent of the population in Southend-on-Sea who are interested in European elections because the proposal is that instead of the links with Chelmsford, as we are at present, we're going to be linked with Thurrock, which of course is something different. Now what my constituents who are interested would like to know is, what actually does President Mitterrand want? What price are we going to have to pay the French to get this through, really don't know and I wonder if the minister could say, what exactly does do the French actually want before they agree to this? I think that er that is a question better directed towards the French, possibly my colleagues in the foreign office but my understanding is that the French assembly have indeed er approved ratification er but the French government i is declining er to append the appropriate signatures to it er er until agreement over the erm the parliament building at at Strasbourg is completed erm but my honourable friend I think in true parliamentary form, asks questions to which he already feels he knows pretty well what the answer is and I suspect that my answer squares with what he knows already. I give way to the honourable gentlemen . on that point er would the er minister indicate whether or not the British government supports the attitude of the French government because of course the British government at the time of the Edinburgh summit were wholly in favour of the agreement to require the European parliament to meet both in Brussels and in Strasbourg and therefore I assume that there's an identity of interest between the British government and the French government on this question since the French government are maintaining their er opposition to the er six extra seats simply because they want to see a new parliament building constructed in Strasbourg, is that a position that the British government supports? Er what the gov the British government would like to see is a resolution of these matters er our precise position er and attitude and er erm the assistance we can give in reaching conclusions is much more a matter er for ministers of the foreign office rather than myself so the honourable gentleman er invites me to tread in areas that don't belong to me and do not actually belong to these orders that are before us, no they're not, they're not really relevant to whether we approve or not the orders that are before us, er I'll give way in a moment but the honourable gentleman er for I believe wanted to intervene. Isn't there a precedent for all this muddle?and opt out clause. Reced er the precedent for the situation that we are in now, yes indeed there is one and it was when er the Labour government was last in power in nineteen seventy eight, when we had er er er to er set up the European constituencies we had a limited time to do it in and all the countries in Europe had to agree to bring forward the same kind of agreement and put it into effect at the same time. So I am telling the honourable gentleman yes indeed there there is a precedent. Er, I give way to my er ? getting more and more intrigued by this and I'd like to you a question to which I genuinely don't know the answer. I thought I heard him say that there was some discretion in this matter, if the French don't go ahead there is some discretion on the part of the British government, I thought it was automatic that if the French don't ratify then we won't be able to ratify. Er the, the original question I had is whether if they don't go ahead er whether we would have to have new primary legislation to revert to the current Euro constituencies and I said no we wouldn't because there is a commencement date, there is a commencement date that er the er er Home Secretary would not put into effect until he was er quite certain that all the countries were on the start line and the the and and the new and the new constituencies er could actually come properly into effect and the six extra members would be elected. What I said was there was some discretion was in the hands of the Home Secretary when he brought forward that commencement date and what he would have in mind is of course the er er not merely what happens er er i er erm in the er er our colleague countries in the community on their commencing er their changes, er but also in the kind of time we would actually need, political parties would need, candidates would need, to run an efficient election campaign here. Obviously we do not want to be in two minds up to the last day and he wouldn't do that but there is quite a a period of discretion where the time gets shorter and er he would have to make a judgement. I suspect that time would come somewhere in April. Yes. Erm my honourable friend will remember that er under er part two of the Maastricht treaty erm titled to citizenship er article eight er not only are citizens of the union erm given certain powers but they're given rights conferred by the treaty which should be subject to the duties imposed thereby. Then, it states that every citizen of the union erm residing in a member state shall have the right to vote and to stand as a candidate at municipal elections in the member state in which he resides under the same conditions as nationals of that state and that the right shall, not may, but shall be exercised er before the thirty first of December nineteen ninety four by the council acting unanimously on the proposal from the commission and after consulting the European parliament which arrangements may provide the derogations where warranted by problems specific to a member state. Now my honourable friend was er indicating that perhaps some solution would need to be found to dealing with the problem of the intransigent French. Now all I'm suggesting to him is that there is here apparently a requirement laid down by the treaty which can't be aggregated by any one individual member state which could actually only be enforced by reference to a court of justice and what I'd like to ask is in the light of this very deep seated concern by the French about Strasbourg er and the European parliament building and the knowledge that this is of such importance to the er of er voting and of representation in the community of the European elections. Is there an intention by our government through some means or another, to get this matter brought before the court so that we can have the matter er sorted out where it belongs. Hear, hear. Er I I think my honourable friend, if I followed him er is confusing two things, er because erm er what we, he was beginning by talking about er are what we will come to in the regulations er which is the right of citizens of other er member countries to vote in the country of which they're not a citizen to vote. Er, but that doesn't er erm er enable anybody to take any legal process against France or the French government er for not ratifying er those arrangements which would lead to six additional members elected from this country and indeed six from France. They're quite separate. But I will be getting on to these regulations now. Because erm the er the purpose of these regulations which er my old friend has just eluded to and I s I I and I have myself, is to extend to the citizens of other member states of the European union who are resident here, the right to vote and to stand as a candidate in the elections to the European parliament. Our current legislation relating to elections restricts the right to vote and to be to British and other commonwealth citizens and citizens of the Irish republic. But the treaty on European union signed at Maastricht gave voting and candidacy rights to citizens of the union who live in a member state without being a national of that state. Article eight B two of the treaty related to elections to the European parliament which is the subject of the draft regulations presented here. The draft regulations extend these electoral rights to citizens of the other member states of the European union who are resident here by making a number of technical amendments to existing legislation. The overall aim of these draft regulations is therefore very simple but the regulations themselves are somewhat long and complex as those who've tried to read them will have noticed. The reason for this length and complexity is that er electoral legislation very rightly goes into often minute details of prescription and practice. This level of prescription is valuable in safeguarding electoral procedures from ambiguity but it does mean that even simple changes require complicated amendments to a great many legislative minutiae . This accounts for the complexity of the document before the house. The general principal of article eight B two of the Maastricht treaty is that non-national residents in member state should be treated for electoral purposes in the same way as the nationals of that state. The draft regulations seek to achieve that equality of treatment in practice and we are not introducing of our own accord any requirements on citizens of other member states which we do not require of our own citizens. To register to vote for example, a union citizen must have been resident in Great Britain on the qualifying date of the tenth of October or fifteenth of September for Northern Ireland in exactly the same way as British or other commonwealth citizens and citizens of other member states who wish to be candidates of the elections for the European parliament must conform to the same nomination procedures as candidates have hitherto. But we're placing one or two small differences to procedure on union citizens directly stemming from the provisions of the E E C directive implementing in article eight B two. In mentioning the directive er can I er pause very briefly er Mr Deputy Speaker to apologise to the house that this document was not made available at the draft stage er an unfortunate combination of human error and several failures of communications meant that the select committee was deprived of the opportunity to consider the directive at its draft stage, er I've noticed the select committee's report which has been put in the vote office in the usual way and acknowledge the government did not meet its scrutiny obligations with regard to this document in the normal means. I can only repeat here, the apologies which have been made outside the house. As I said, the draft regulations impose on union citizens a few minor procedural changes from those we require of our own citizens. The main difference from our normal arrangements is that union citizens will have to apply to register to vote and will have to do so to their local electoral registration officer by the twenty ninth of March. We will not be placing a duty on electoral registration officers to seek out non-British or Irish citizens for registration. A further small difference is that we will be requiring intending voters and candidates to supply information about their electoral rights in their home member state. Member states will be exchanging information on non-national electors and candidates on the basis of the information provided with the aim of preventing double voting or candidacy and to enforce concurrently disqualifications imposed by a home member state. This requirement stems from the directive who apply the provisions of the treaty and is designed to meet the concerns of some other member states. As I've said, these regulations are apparently complex but merely affect a simple extension of rights to vote and candidacy in conformity with our treaty obligations and I hope that the house will approve these too. Question is as on the order paper, Mr Graham Allett. Er Mr Deputy Speaker I'm glad er at last after some further delay that members of this house have the opportunity to discuss the important matter of the boundaries on which the European elections will be fought on June the ninth and the extension to the vote to E C citizens in the U K for those elections. Er, the European project goes on and for many of the newer generations in this place, it's not longer an article of faith er but a part of the political landscape that has to be dealt with on merit and it's all the more ludicrous therefore Mr Deputy Speaker, that the Conservatives' internal divisions over Maastricht have led to a situation where candidates for the ever more important European elections are only now being selected in certain seats, just fourteen weeks before the election. Given the size of the European constituencies, it will be difficult, if not impossible, for some candidates to become widely known and for an informed choice to be made. As we argued throughout the proceedings of the European parliamentary elections bill, the Conservatives are entirely responsible for the fact that this process of drawing up the new European boundaries had to be compressed into such a short time. They are also responsible for the fact that the boundaries were drawn up, not by the independent boundary commission, but by the new European parliamentary constituencies committee. It took from the Edinburgh summit in December nineteen ninety two, when the current Prime Minister first announced the government's intention to legislate on this issue, until the thirtieth of June nineteen ninety three before the European parliamentary elections bill had its first reading. Now we all know that the reason for this inordinate six month delay was that the government couldn't be sure of carrying a vote on anything European in the face of hostility from its Maastricht rebels, those the Prime Minister famously dubbed the illegitimate ones. I understand that it is possible, even at this late stage, that the review itself could be overturned by the refusal of France to agree the new allocation of seats and we've already had an exchange on that, Mr Deputy Speaker, which indicates that whatever we decide today might actually be overthrown and overturned completely by the inability of the French to ratify their part of the arrangement, er the minister referred to it as a massive inconvenience, I suggest that if we have to resort to going back to the old boundaries to fight these elections and indeed the problems that that will cause for the selection of candidates as well, that that will be one of the greatest understatements that even this house has heard. I think colleagues on this side will seek to press the minister even further on the latest developments in France and indeed what influence we can have to make sure that if we pass these orders today, they do become the basis of the European elections. Mr Deputy Speaker we on this side of the house believed then, as the bill went through committee and still believe today, that there was time had the government been more efficient in the organisation of its parliamentary business, for proper public inquiries to have been held. As we know, the organisation of business er isn't their strong point at the moment, whether its been run ragged by their own rebels or clumsily breaking down the usual channels, seems our non-cooperation policy is merely an extension of the one that's been working so effectively inside the Conservative party under the present Prime Minister. Amidst all that confusion, I think it is important that the procedures used in this parliamentary review should never be deployed as a precedent for future boundary revision, for either Strasbourg or Westminster. We must be clear that this occasion must be the exception and not the rule. On this side of the house we believe that if people are to have confidence in our democratic system then they need to be sure that the electoral boundaries on which our system operates, are beyond reproach. I stated when the bill came before the house that I did not believe that the Home Secretary intended to fiddle the boundaries, some felt I was being a little generous to the Home Secretary, but in his case er we should always be prepared to understand a little more and condemn a little less. It was always our contention that justice should not only be done but that justice should be seen to be done by the due process of the public inquiry. This process was one that we'd enjoyed the public inquiry process for over fifty years and it would be most helpful if the minister at some point in his er later remarks perhaps could take this opportunity to tell the house that the Conservatives do not intend to side step the public inquiry stage of any future boundary proposals, European or I'd be glad to give up. boundary changes that we would like to have the full panoply of o o of inquiry a as the honourable gentleman knows, the the timetable was short here and what we had to do was to follow the model, er that had been provided by the last Labour government in seventy eight when it had a similarly tight timetable, took a similarly er er period, similarly short period of time er for the reviews and where erm the normal enquiries had to be dispensed with. They were not, they were not dispensed with, well one could look back in seventy eight and say retrospectively how that process could have been started considerably earlier, er the honourable gentleman knows perfectly well that er as the Maastricht bill was winding its way through here it wasn't really practical to to run this but indeed the processes were started before the governing legislation was on the statute book and I quite understand why honourable gentlemen opposite wish to make their party points, particularly those particularly those who were not in the house in seventy eight which er doesn't I think apply to the honourable gentleman from from Birmingham, when he knows perfectly well that the same kind of machinery is used now was used then and it was used as fairly and as honestly and as completely impartially as the time allowed. I'm more concerned about erm future possibilities, not least the possibility that the, if we fight the next European election under first past the post system then of course there will need to be a further set of boundary changes in the very near future arising from the parliamentary boundary commission proposals and I hope that again that the minister will take the change in in his remarks a little later, to assure the house that this was, because of the time constraints and there are reasons for that that I'll come to, but because of the time constraints that this was in fact just a one off proposal because its sad that party political considerations that the minister has eluded to, the difficulties that Conservative party had over the Maastricht bill, caused our boundary procedures to be tampered with at all in the U K. At the same time as we're seeing er a welcome expansion of democratic forms in the rest of the world in erm Eastern and central er Europe, in South Africa for instance we see the erosion of these forms in the United Kingdom. We, in this country and indeed in this house, can be very deeply complacent when indeed we should be ever vigilant about our democracy and the very precious forms that it takes of which one was the er public inquiry stage of the erm boundary commission procedures. Public inquires certainly. been rather unfair to the Conservative party over their attitudes to Maastricht. Would you accept as a Euro enthusiast, that the opinion poll published by the commission three weeks ago, showed that the Labour party in their tepid support for Maastricht, were wholly out of line with the average Labour voter and in fact it shows quite clearly the majority of people in Britain, not only were opposed to Maastricht, they were also opposed to the idea that the E C was a good idea at all. . I feel er something of a stranger walking in on the Maastricht reunion er annual dinner er at the er I have to say that erm I er wouldn't wish to cross swords with the honourable gentleman on the detail of the Maastricht bill but certainly but certainly I 'ave to say that for many people and maybe even some people on this own side who may be prepared to admit it, the false divide between Euro sceptics and Euro fanatics is one that doesn't appeal to the new generations of members and I suspect on both sides of the house, we are in our considered view in Europe and we need to make the best of it and treat Europe on its merits rather than re-live the battles of the er late seventies and early eighties. The public inquiry process within the boundary er commission procedures is certainly not er a declaration, it has a very important function. In the previous round of European parliamentary proposals there were ten European boundary enquiries and five of these overturned provisional recommendations as a result of listening to people at public inquiry. Now the Home Secretary admitted in the committee stage on the floor of the house that to have had the public inquiry stage would have added seven weeks to the boundary process. This Mr Deputy Speaker, could easily have been accommodation had the bill been brought to the house just seven weeks earlier than it actually was brought to the house, seven weeks weren't the problem. The problem was the wasted thirty two weeks between the Edinburgh summit and the introduction of the bill, a delay caused entirely for party political reasons, the Conservative splits over Europe in general and over Maastricht in particular. I'll be pleased to give way. I, don't go, he knows the answer to this question maybe the Home Office will be able to provide with it. How many E C nationals are presently registered then to vote in this forthcoming election? At the moment there are no at the moment there are no nationals registered and I'll I will come to this later, er potentially I understand there are some four hundred thousand who could register. Erm, Mr Deputy Speaker, we on this side of the house look forward with confidence to the nineteen ninety four European elections whatever boundaries they take place on. In nineteen eighty nine, at the last European elections, Labour took forty five seats to the Conservatives thirty two and we are looking forward to the elections in June when the party opposite, ridden by divisions and disagreements, will suffer further loses and Labour, we hope, will make further gains. We all know that there's a fundamental divide within the Conservative party which no amount of packaging can camouflage, although the packing last time round perhaps er wasn't quite as good as it could have been. Maybe this time they'll be a rather more serious effort in the European elections given that the er potential for influencing the outcome of the next leadership contest also lies in the balance there. In Europe itself the Conservative M E Ps are led by Sir Christopher Prout Sir Christopher Prout is the vice president of the European Peoples Party and they sit the the the a debate may no doubt take place later on whether he's the vice chairman or vice president. My information, until corrected, is that he is the vice president of the European Peoples Party and it's a rather ambivalent relationship the er Conservatives have with the European peoples party. They sit with the European peoples party in parliament. They speak on the European peoples party membership of committees, that is the only way in which they can find a voice in committees and they take their share of European peoples party's funding from the European peoples party. Now there seems to be a very close relationship between the European peoples party and the Conservative party, if only on that circumstantial basis. Now the European peoples party manifesto calls for a single currency,a central bank,the incorporation of the social chapter a common immigration policy and a constitution for the whole of Europe. All of which have been greeted by members opposite with great acclaim. Things obviously very close to the hearts of members on the benches opposite. I can only wonder if it will bear very much relationship to the manifesto finally produced by the Conservative party before the next European election. I'm very grateful to the honoured, honourable gentleman. I'm certain that he would not like to finish his speech bef before mentioning the relationship of the Labour party with the socialist parties in Europe and their own manifesto. Oh what a clever boy. And I certainly wouldn't dream of finishing my speech without er some substantial mentions of the er very close relationship that we are proud to tell people about. Very close relationship between. Order. Before the honourable gentleman goes any further it would be advantage really to get back to the boundaries Mr Graham G . I'll resist the temptation er Mr Deputy Speaker to to follow members opposite in er what could have been a very interesting line of debate. Erm, has the honourable gentleman noted that er on the ninth of February, it's only a few days ago, the European parliament itself erm through its rapporteur Mr Fernand Herman er the Christian Democrats, but also of course with er socialists from the er European parliament, endorsed a constitution er which contains even worse things than the European peoples party's manifesto. Is he and his party, going to repudiate these. Order, my just recent remarks it would apply to the honourable gentleman, just in reply to the honourable gentleman on the front bench, Mr Graham Allett. Erm I think the bad news for the honourable member from Stafford is that er Messier Herman is in fact a member of the European peoples party and no doubt no the honourable member with great respect, said that he was a Christian democrat and he's also a member of the European Peoples party and therefore I hope that the honourable member for Stafford will take that up with his Conservative colleagues, who are very closely connected to the European peoples party, because I hopefully have made clear earlier in my remarks. I'd be very glad to give way to the honourable lady. is the honourable member aware that whereas all the Conservatives voted against the Herman report, the Labour party, the socialists er er out there on the that side, voted for it. I'm very grateful for that point of information from the honourable lady. Er Mr Deputy Speaker it's also quite important that I make clear the Labour party's position in respect to the article which calls for uniform electoral procedures to be set up for elections to the European parliament. Members of this house will recall that this matter was raised er in relation to an amendment er at committee stage and we argued during the committee stage of the bill that it was not feasible for an entirely new electoral system to be set up for the European elections in June nineteen ninety four and that it was er silly to apply a different system for the additional six seats to that applying to the other eighty one. However we also made it clear that as one part of Labour's wider democratic agenda, that we were sympathetic to looking at a plurality of electoral systems and that this might include legislating for a regional list system of proportional representation for future European elections. As I stated in the house during the debate on the seventh of er July, the plant commission established by the Labour party to look into electoral systems proposed as one of its many recommendations, a system of proportional representation, the regional list system for the European parliament. Its report said, such a system could be introduced by an incoming Labour government for the nineteen ninety nine elections at the earliest. That report was sent to our national executive committee and on May the nineteenth the leader of the Labour party stated and I quote, the plant committee concludes that different elected bodies can be chosen by different electoral systems, that is the view which I share and I support the proposals made both for a reformed second chamber and the European parliament. The proposal on the European parliament sensibly recommends cons consistency of voting for the one election that we share with other members of the European community. Mr Deputy Speaker that strong sympathy expressed at the time of the last debate on these matters was approved overwhelmingly by the Labour party conference last October and I state that for the record less there be any misunderstanding about our position on the issue of voting systems. Hear, hear. It also illustrates the fact that the Conservative government are yet again lagging behind even the right wing and Christian democratic parties in Europe and are utterly isolated in their unwillingness to contemplate electoral change of any kind. Mr Deputy Speaker the European parliamentary constituency committees have now made their recommendations. We on this side of the house, have a number of specific dis disagreements about the er way in which specific boundaries have been drawn in addition members will remember our strong call for an additional Scottish seat. Nevertheless we are generally satisfied that both committees, that's the English and the Welsh committees, have done a thorough job and on behalf of my colleagues I would certainly like to pay tribute to those who served on those committees who I believe discharged their responsibilities with great professionalism in circumstances made unnecessarily difficult by ministerial dithering and delay. Mr Deputy Speaker we live in dark days for our democracy. Days of executive decree,Henry the eighth clauses and bills being agreed without proper parliamentary debate. I suppose in that context we should be grateful that ministers have not used the power that they have to modify the recommendations of the boundary committees. It is a sad day when we are grateful for not being abused in this house, but it's about all we have to be thankful for until this wretched system is altered, root and branch. Hear, hear, hear. If I can move onto the final of the orders, the erm enfranchisement of E C citizens resident in the U K. We on this side of the house welcome the change which allows E C citizens resident in the U K to vote in the European elections. These regulations which will give effect at the European council directive of December the sixth will of course alter the long standing position in the U K whereby only British and Commonwealth citizens and citizens of the Republic of Ireland are entitled to vote in European parliamentary elections. It is a sensible and desirable change welcome on this side of the house and I understand, and the minister may correct me if I'm wrong, but the order relating to local government elections and E C citizens er will be before the house before the end of nineteen ninety four. We on this side of the house believe that this extension of the franchise to E C citizens resident in Britain is a clear affirmation of our practical commitment to greater European cooperation and rights that apply to all European citizens. Consequently we've been greatly concerned by the government's delay in bringing forward this legislation which was adopted in draft on the twenty third of June nineteen ninety three and became a council directive on the sixth of December nineteen ninety three. It's indicative of this government's approach to all matters European. That every obligation of the Maastricht treaty appears to be discharged grudgingly and after unnecessary delay. Often the wheels appear to grind exceeding slow, particularly where democratic change is concerned. It was in nineteen seventy seven that the European parliament first passed a resolution on voting rights in European elections. I hope that many of those pioneers of that time feel a sense of satisfaction this evening, seeing this bill and these orders going through. It may interest them that within the last few months the European parliament has agreed to press for a bill of rights for the citizens of Europe and for a written constitution for Europe. Who knows how quickly that may come to fruition. The principals underlying this change are relatively straightforward, as the minister's already er eluded, article eight of the treaty on European union passed last year, entitled citizenship of the union, guarantees the right to move and reside freely within the territory of member states. I'd be pleased to give way. Thank you honourable gentleman. Isn't it also true that the European union or community or whatever you like to call it, is also intending to introduce a compulsory identity card in the form of a smart card carrying details of the citizen's health, but which would have ample room to put all sorts of other things on. There are no proposals there are no prop . A list of recommendations. When he introduced the report in the house, my right honourable friend, the member for Kingston upon Thames made is clear that he accepted them all and that the government was committed to carrying them out. In a subsequent debate on the report on the sixth of November nineteen ninety two, I spelt out in some detail how the government intended to fulfil that commitment and one of the regulations before the house today represents the culmination of our actions to give effect to one of Sir Thomas er Bingham's recommendations that the existing right in section forty seven of the banking act nineteen eighty seven, for auditors to report relevant information to the bank of England should become a statutory duty. As honourable members will recall, Sir Thomas was persuaded to this view by in part a conclusion of the treasurer and civil service select committee, that although the existing permissive nature of section forty seven had worked well it seems desirable in his words, to tighten the wording of the act so that there can be no doubt, either from the point of view of the auditor, his client or the regulator, as to the auditor's duty to report. In announcing the government's intention I also made it clear that my right honourable friend had decided that a similar duty should be introduced for auditors of building societies and financial service companies and that my right honourable friend the president of the board of trade would want the approach extended er to the, this approach extended to the auditors of insurance companies. Hence the four statutory instruments which are before us today. In his speech er in that debate the honourable member for Edinburgh central and the bench er in his place today, er welcomed the government's acceptance of Sir Thomas' and the select committee's recommendation and agreed er that it was in his words, important that the statutory duty of auditors ought to be clear so that er to use his colourful phrase, if whistles are to be blown they're to be blown without doubt. Well since that debate the government has taken the decision to introduce the duty into a fifth regulated sector friendly societies and a negative resolution order under the friendly societies act nineteen ninety two is also is also prop be N reasons for taking action across this wide front Madam Deputy Speaker, first and most important, the relevant provisions in the various acts are very similar and if we are to bolster the arrangements in relation to banks then we should do the same for other sectors entrusted with the public's investments. All with ensuring their daily risks. It would be difficult for me or for any other minister to have to defend leaving things unchanged in these other areas if the affect of having done so was subsequently to lead to a case of fraud in an investment firm, building society or insurance company which the existence of the duty would have helped to prevent. I most grateful to the minister for giving way and it's good to see the government er at last acknowledging the justice of the amendments to do exactly what we're proposing now that we put in to most of the committees like the building societies c c c b b bill a and like the banking bill when they were discussing the nineteen eighties but Lord Justice Bingham also recommended er and I quote, the determination of the correct relationship between client, auditor and supervisor raises an issue of policy more appropriate for decision making by parliament than by the bank and the accounting profession. Why in the view of that clear recommendation that parliament should decide these matters, has he left the regulation of that duty to the auditing practices board, a non-statutory body? Well the honourable gentleman for Great Brimsea is quite right to say that these matters er had some consideration given to them during the passage of the the legislation er but it is also true to say that er er th in the Bingham report there was a broad acceptance that the present s system of supervision of banks should continue. Now with regard to auditors in particular, er he will know because he's had some correspondence with me er on this particular subject, it is the view of the government that the er recognised professional body, the Institute of Chartered Accounts in England and Wales, is best placed as a professional body, to supervise er this sector er an argument can be mounted and no doubt he may seek to use this debate to do just that, to say that er this should be the subject of some direct er rule from Whitehall. But that is neither the history nor the practice of our professional system, not just er for accountants but for the legal system as well and I think it has stood the test of time, er he will know that there has been er there is a procedure for the joint disciplinaries scheme er which enables the er institute to investigate whether there has been compliance by member firms with the standards promulgated er with er er by the er er auditing practices board and that seems to me to be the er right way forward. But no doubt we can return to these matters if the honourable gentleman raises them further in the course of the debate. Er, madam deputy speaker erm er having determined the scope of the duty, er the government er published a consultation document at the beginning of March at last year. This made it clear that it was not the governments objective to alter fundamentally the red relationship between auditor and client, nor were we looking to increase the costs of audit. Our object was the same as Sir Thomas Bingham's, namely to clarify and strengthen the position of the auditor, not to change it. So the government held back from imposing a duty on auditors to seek out fraud, malpractice and wrong doing. This would have meant straying too far from the auditor's traditional role. The responses we received to the consultation document were considered carefully and my officials discussed the issues raised with the auditing practices board and with other interested parties in the regulated sectors. Some comments could be dealt with readily by changes to the draft statutory instruments but others were not so easy to resolve as they raise more fundamental questions and in these cases my officials were able to explore with the auditing practices board, whether issues could be more easily addressed in the statement of auditing standards which is being developed to accompany the legislation than in the statutory instruments themselves. I'd like if I may, to take this opportunity of paying tribute to the er helpful, cooperative attitude that the auditing practices board displayed in what were often long and very complex discussions and to thank them for the clear and helpful statement with which they shortly er plan to issue er to er accompany these order and to bring them into practical effect. for the convenience of the house I'd be most grateful if he could tell us, is this board a quango that he's referred to? Is it one of the new quangos or is it a S F R A, a self financing regulatory authority that has powers to issues and regulations and charge people for the job that it then does. I think the house would like to know whether it's a S F R A or quango? I I I'm well I'm not entirely familiar with such jargon, I think it falls within the latter rather than the former definition. It is not that case that er er the auditing practices board is a body set up by the statute. But it is certainly er a body which is er recognised as responsible and indeed in er tax law and in various other ways er its promulgations and the standards that it sets are are generally regarded as acceptable but these matters of course are kept under review. Er Madam Deputy Speaker, one of the difficulties addressed during the consultation exercise was that neither the term auditor, nor the phrase in his capacity as auditor, were defined in the banking statutory instrument or in the banking act itself and the government's mindful of the need to clarify who it is who will be placed under a duty by the statutory instruments and in which circumstances the duty will apply and while this is ultimately a question for the courts, we take the view that the duty clearly covers any auditor of a bank appointed under U K company law. That is any auditor of an authorised institution incorporated in the U K. It also covers auditors of authorised institutions whose place of incorporation is outside the European community and who's initial authorisation has been granted by another regulator, even though such auditors may be appointed under a foreign law. The government also takes the view that the duty applies to U K accountants acting as agents of the appointed foreign auditors. As for the circumstances in which an auditor might come under a duty to report, the banking act as well as the financial services act and the insurance companies act, uses, use the phrase in his capacity as auditor, here again we have no powers to clarify this on the face of the regulations. If any greater certainty could be given then it could be done only by an unacceptable narrowing of the duty to restrict it to a part of the auditors responsibilities and we're also concerned that to do so could have potentially wide ranging implications for the scope of auditor's functions more generally. It may however be helpful madam speaker, er Madam Deputy Speaker, if I seek to clarify er when an individual auditor is operating in his capacity as such and whether a partner in an auditing practice who is not involved in audin er in auditing the regulated institutions is deemed nevertheless to be operating in his capacity as auditor. In our view it's reasonable to expect an individual who is conducting an audit, to consider information relevant to an audit which is obtained in the course of other work for the same client. It seems realistic to expect the auditor to take such information into account in his review of the audit and the person acting as auditor also needs to be aware of other non-audit work on his client that partners in his firm may be doing such as for example tax work and they in turn should consider whether any information that may arise from their work is relevant to the conduct of the audit and where it is, they should also consider whether it is relevant to the duty to report to the regulator, the partner carrying out the audit should also if possible, discuss it with his client. In the case of information relating to er say client A which is obtained by the auditor while auditing client B, the auditor ought as a matter of sound practice normally to use the information to make further enquiries for the purpose of the audit of A. These interpretations have been set out more fully in the statement of auditing standards and the professional guidance issued by the auditing practices board that will accompany this legislation and as matters of courtesy to the house er Madam Deputy Speaker, I ask that a copy of that be placed in the library. Once this extensive consultation process was over the government circulated amended versions of the draft statutory instruments for a second more limited round before setting them in their final form. In producing these drafts we bore firmly in mind the fact that if this duty on auditors is to be effective then it's vital that the auditors can continue to rely on the trust of their clients. So we've tried to set the duty at a level which makes it clear to those who seek to commit financial crime that they're more likely to be caught but which does not impose additional reporting burdens or costs on those who conduct their business honestly and that is a most important balance to strike. Hear, hear. I I'm very grateful to the minister for his patience but er on the other hand it could be argued that it's no use having a duty to report fraud unless you also have a duty to detect fraud. The auditing profession er argues, and I must say the audit practice board's er er proposals are very, for very passive auditing, the audit profession argues that it's difficult to detect fraud but on the other hand er the local government er act er local government finance act of nineteen eighty two requires local authority auditors to have er er er a duty to search for unlawful acts and report on them. Now if that's good for the local authority goose, why isn't it good for the banking gander when so much more money is involved. Well the honourable gentleman as always makes er more than a debating point, I think he makes a serious point which er deserves to be answered, erm it is not, if I can put it this way, the intention of these orders er to turn auditors into er snoopers or narks er and to do so I think runs some very serious risks, not only of reducing and undermining the relationship between auditors and their clients, not only of imposing very substantial additional cost burdens on auditors which will have to be borne by companies and ultimately their clients, but also there has an example he's given I think to be some difference, put it no more than that between public money and private money, even though I acknowledge that were talking here about the trusteeship in some cases of of er d er public deposits and funds. So I think there are difficulties and I might er just finally add that were we to go along the lines he mentioned, we would of course need primary er legislation because we couldn't introduce in orders under the relevant legislation this, so it would have to be a matter for another day, were we to er consider that seriously, but it is not the intention of the government. to all er o o on both sides, erm there's one point he made which is terrible important which is that the costs of this statutory instrument and all the guidelines and rules and regulations and orders that flow from it, will not impact onto small b business because that was the key to the deregulation bill and I wonder whether the deregulation unit has looked at this and whether it is satisfied it's not gonna be an additional cost onto the running of small enterprise. Well my, my honourable friend is is a prime champion of small businesses in this house and he raises a very important point er, the answer is yes it has been considered er by er er those concerned with deregulation. In fact my honourable friend, the parliamentary under secretary of state for the department of trade and industry who's responsible for deregulation is also the sponsoring minister for one of these orders, namely the one on the insurance companies, and secondly our intention is that the cost here should be negligible, or nil er in that they don't go beyond er what is already required or or possible by way of a right to report, here we're imposing a duty to report. That itself shouldn't er impose er any greater cost on auditors, but it should, and this is the crucial point I think, it should bolster the ability of auditors to insist that their client companies er are forthcoming and open and where necessary correct if they can er problems which might otherwise bring their authorised status er into question and therefore it is a welcome enhancement of the law, it toughens up the law without imp imposing the costs about which he's rightly concerned. Madam deputy speaker, before I sit down I should also just mention that there is a a European dimension to this issue as in November nineteen ninety two the Vice President of the E C commission, Sir Leon Britton, sketched out some general proposals for community legislation in response to the B C C I affair. These proposals were subsequently turned into a commissioned proposal for a directive. One element of which would be to require member states to impose a duty on auditors of financial undertakings, to report breaches of laws or regulations or other adverse circumstances to supervisors. As the house will know, following discussions in Brussels, political agreement has been reached in the council on the amendment draft directive which, if implemented in its present form, would impose on auditors a slightly wider duty to report than that contained in the regulations we're currently debating. However the proposed European directive has a number of further hurdles to be negotiated before it can be finalised and even when it is it's unlikely to be implemented before nineteen ninety six. Even though some minor changes may subsequently be necessary in order to conform with the directive, the government doesn't want to risk a further period of delay before bringing these necessary measures into effect. Given the widespread support on both sides of the house for Sir Thomas' recommendations, the government believes that we should now act promptly to pass these changes into law. Can I conclude Madam Deputy Speaker, once again, by expressing my gratitude to the auditing practices board and the many other professional bodies who've been involved in considering this legislation. We believe that these measures will greatly strengthen and clarify the position of the auditor and represent an important step forward in the fight against financial wrong doing. I commend them to the house. The question is in the terms set out on the order paper. Mr Alistair Darling. Hear, hear. Madam Deputy Speaker. As the minister said these orders impose a new statutory duty on auditors and as he quite rightly reminded us, it is something that er we welcomed when we held the debate on the Bingham report in November nineteen ninety two, some fifteen months ago, er, I think it is fair to say that whilst we welcomed that recommendation from Bingham, we didn't say that was all that was required and it is certainly our view that whilst these orders are very welcome, they are only a start in the battle against detecting fraud and other crimes of dishonesty. Action was promised as the minister said, in October nineteen ninety two by the former chancellor when the Bingham report was published, but I believe that these proposals are under the bear minimum requested by Bingham and they hardly live up er to the er minister's announcement at the beginning of his speech. Indeed they were only introduced after much discussion and some opposition from the auditing industry. Now whilst the minister quite understandable pays tribute er to those who spent some considerable time and effort in getting the practice notes right and responding to the government's proposals, it is fair to say that there are many, not just in the auditing industry, but those who represent the companies who are audited who have expressed a number of concerns, a minister has mentioned some, the relations with the client for example. Indeed that is something that bears closer examination because there are many people who believe that the relationship between a client and an auditor can be too close and that there ought to be a respectable distance between them. There is the question of professional indemnity which I shall return to shortly because I think it might be helpful if the minister were to say something about that. But Madam Deputy Speaker, these order don't pay any attention to a number of matters in what I would regard as the public interest and whilst the minister as I say, has quite rightly paid tribute to professional organisations involved in this process, we must never forget that we're here to represent the public interest and not just er er specific professional interests that may be relevant in each case and indeed in the light of what has happened in this field of enforcement er over the last two years, the minister must be aware that the public are requiring higher standards of commercial probity. I believe the government should have conducted a proper and wide review into the role and duty of auditors, not just in the area covered by these orders, but also throughout the whole of industry. I understand the various accou er professional bodies in the accountancy industry are in fact doing that but I think the government should also do that because it is not just the probity of financial institutions we are concerned about, it is also er the auditing of other commercial concerns and it seems to be that in this case the public interest has taken second place to the government's wish to do as little as possible, yet again the minister said in the debate that if we were to do anything further in response to a question put by my honourable friend the member for Grimsby, it would need legislation, primary legislation. So what. That's what this house is here for, it is here to introduce primary legislation if we need it and in my view we do need it in this area and it is it's high time the government recognised that and should not be afraid t t t to take action simply because primary legislation is required. The government has for example, nothing to say about a central enforcement body which is part and parcel of what I believe should be a proper and focused attack against crimes of dishonesty er in in er financial institutions in this country. The government has said nothing about the need to end the fiction of self regulation and to replace it with an efficient and effective and cheaper direct regulation. But Madam Speaker there are a number of questions specifically related to these orders that we need to address. The first one is what exactly the duty is so far as the auditor is concerned. I notice that the phraseology adopted in each of the orders is different. If we look at the insurance order and the one relating to building societies, it is quite clear there that the auditor has to be acting in his capacity o er as auditor. Now the minister er er when in his speech earlier, er made the point that he thought that the proper interpretation in respect of all of these orders was a fairly wide one. If that is the case why is it that the order relating to insurance and building society er building societies, specifically makes the point that the auditor must be working erm in his capacity as such whereas the orders on banking and financial services er it may be implicit the er the auditor is working er in his or her capacity as such er but it is not explicitly stated because the phraseology is different. But of course the minister in his speech earlier went far wider than that er he seemed to imply that it wasn't just er th er duty on the accountant er acting in capa his capacity as an auditor but er the the accountant would have the same duty if acting as an accountant, tax advisor or indeed in any other capacity. Now that is to paint a far wider duty than I had been er er er thought and indeed er those who follow these matters have suggested that's rather wider than the than the er secondary legislation here before us actually provides for. Clearly it will be of crucial importance in any er court proceedings because the court will have to decide whether or not an auditor was in breech of his or her duty having regard to what is on the face of the statute. Now I know erm following a fairly recent er er er case in the house of lords that the courts are er entitled to rely on what ministers say in debate but perhaps the minister could er spell out a little bit more clearly the apparent discrepancy between what he said in his speech and what is on the face of these orders and indeed why it is that the orders in r relation to banking and financial services, adopts a different phraseology er to that used in the orders relating to insurance and building societies. I know it could be something to do with regime er banks of course are supervised by the Bank of England at the moment and er the financial services er regime is supervised by the S I B and it could be that is the reason why it is not explicitly stated er that the accountant has to be acting in his capacity as erm as auditor. But I do think the minister er should er b be quite clear about that point er because er it may be of crucial importance, not just to the industry, er but also to the public interest who will want to know what the position is so far as er er these matters are concerned. And indeed er the Association of er Chartered er er the Chartered Association of Certified Accountants wrote to me recently er asking exactly what the position is and I quote from the letter, they say firms of accountants are quite likely to be engaged by the same client to perform services other than a statutory audit and then they go on to list financial planning and so on. Now if the minister is right and a partner in the firm or indeed an assistant in the firm a acting as a tax advisor or financial planner, might come across something er tha that er if er he were acting as auditor he would be bound to report. Now as I understand it the minister's position is that he be bound to refer that matter to the partner responsible for audit and that partner er would then be put on notice that er he ought to report it to the relevant authority. Now if that is correct perhaps a minister could say so and clear in explicit terms er because it is very, very important because increasingly er a number of firms act in er in er in in both capacities and indeed for the large firms I think many of us are aware of the difficulty that's now arising and there are only half a dozen very large accountancy firms that are capable of providing accounting and auditing services in this country and indeed most of them are beneficiaries of this government's largesse in awarding public service contracts er to a surprising degree and so the government will be well aware of the problem . to my honourable friend because not only are these er large er particularly the big six er centres of accountancy power pretty well uncontrolled, they dominate the institutions that are meant to regulate them er but when it comes to international er affairs they don't exchange information with each other. When the senate came to enquire er into the audit performance of Price Waterhouse er the British partners of Price Waterhouse claimed that they were an entirely separate organisation, have no obligation to give information to the er t to the senate and nothing was effectively passed on, er so an enquiry was conducted there without our partners, er Price Waterhouse's partners in this country, cooperating in any way. What my, my honourable friend raises a very interesting point because er when I we studied er the law relating to partnerships one of the basic er er principals was the personal relationship between partners and I'm bound to say that when one looks at the headed notepaper of these big multi national accountancy firms sometimes the names of which cover most of the letter and there's very little room in fact left er for the message. Er one wonders how on earth they speak to each other, or if indeed they even know who each other is or where their offices are and there isn't that personal relationship that one might expect to find in the normal concept of a legal firm and indeed er without clearly we go to off the point somewhat to have a discussion as to whether or not er a partnership is a suitable legal entity for these people to trade under. It does raise a very important matter because in the B C C I inquiry, it was quite obvious er that parts of Price Waterhouse weren't fully aware of what other parts of Pri Price Waterhouse were doing and indeed worse than that and in fairness to Price Waterhouse, some of the regulators in different parts of the world didn't know what each other w w were doing and the only people that did know what was happening were the principals behind B C C I who exploited that situation. So clearly that is something that er er e i i is a matter for the accountancy profession in some way er but of course we've got the problem as well then that er er Price Waterhouse operating in the United States presumably er comes within the jurisdiction of Price Wate the accountancy profession in the United States and it is something that the government is going to have address itself to. It is already accepted in money laundering for example, that er the f fraud is an international crime and it would be interesting to hear er what steps the minister is proposing to take to have a look at the problem that undoubtedly was er raised in the B C C I report. But before I leave this particular part of my criticism er perhaps er in case the minister er er doesn't accept what I'm saying I could quote er the words of the right honourable gentleman, the President of the Board of Trade er who writing before he was a President er in his book where there's a will he said accountancy firms ought I believe, the debarred from doing any other work for a company for which they act as auditors and in a number of other countries there are laws which circumscribe auditors in this way and prevent to prevent any possible conflict of interest. This discipline should be extended across the publicly quoted private sector. Now that was certainly the views of the President of the Board of Trade before er he er returned to the cabinet er at another time and I'm not sure if he's departed from these views but I think they're worthy of some weight. I understand there are problems er but as a general principle it does seem to me that it's something that needs to be looked at and the minister has said that a lot of these matters will be dealt with by a statement of practice and er he was asked by the honourable gentleman, the member for South Hams I think, er er er what the status of er these people were. Well er to me it doesn't matter s er that much, what I'm concerned about is that this is a matter of public interest, it shouldn't just be a matter of professional interest and it's for these reasons I think the government should take a rather more lively interest er than perhaps it does. There's a whole question of rotation of auditors. That is something that has been canvassed on many, many occasions. Is it wise to have the same firm of auditors year in, year out er all of us are familiar with the er the last item on the annual general meeting, a motion to propose the re-election of the auditors, er I wonder whether or not that's something that ought to be looked at. I understand the exquence, the expense question but there's also the question of transparency and efficiency because firms ought to look at audit as a useful discipline, it's not a question of snoopers or narks, as the minister said, er audit is an essential function for the efficiency of the firm as well as for the protection of the public. The next point that I wanted to turn to is who the duty of care is owed owed to, er as I understand it the present law is quite clear. The auditors owe a duty of care to the shore share holders collectively, not to individual share holders or what are called stake holders, employees for example, er nor do auditors have a general duty so far as the public interest is concerned. I believe that's something that needs to be looked at and if the government were prepared to embark on a review of auditing er generally then that is something that I think there is some useful point in pursuing further er it's interesting that er er erm when Bingham examined this point at paragraph three er point three nine in his report er he has a long paragraph er discussing these matters and er he says that er he at the end of the day he doesn't come to a concluded view er although he does er acknowledge the fact that there are many people er depositors or example, share holders and employees who might have an interest in a particular company. Then in paragraph three forty he goes on to s to point out that the law er er which was then recently established was that auditors due owe a duty of care to their client company and the whole body of share holders but not to individual share holders and not to non share holding depositors. Now he was talking in the context of er of of a , er but it is something that I think the government does need to look at because given the nature of multi-national companies or even the nature of public companies and private companies in this country where there is a public interest, not just in efficiency but also in probity. That it's time perhaps that we should look at the role of bankers and see whether or not they should have a wider duty than at present. I and we er don't have a concluded view on the matter but it is something that I think that we need to look at. I also think that there is substantial merit in the point that was put in intervention by my honourable friend the member for Grimbsy, on the duty of auditors. He drew attention to the fact that in terms of the local government act, er local government finance act of nineteen er eighty two, that auditors have a far wider duty than is proposed in these orders before us, because the duty is to detect fraud. Now to my mind that is not a question of being a snooper, a nark or even being a policeman, er it is er er indeed if we look at section fifteen of the local government finance act of nineteen eighty two er it it's quite interesting to see the the words used because the auditor is under a duty, amongst other things, to see that the accounts are prepared in accordance with regulations er made under the act er to see that proper practices that have been followed and to see that the body of accounts that have been audited have made proper arrangements f for securing economy, efficiency and effectiveness. Now that's something that erm particularly that last point, that audit committees that are established in most efficient companies want to look at and I come back to the point that audit ought to be looked at as something that assists companies in efficiency as well as a mechanism for detecting fraud and yet the government doesn't appear to be examining that. It seems to be saying this is entirely a matter for the profession. I would have thought that it is in the government's interest to promote efficiency, it's certainly in the government's interest to maintain the public interest with regard er to fraud or other wrong doing er but it's something that the government ought to look at and again it seems to me that it ought to be a matter that er could be looked at if there was a proper inquiry. I note that in these orders Madam Speaker, there is a reference to er information or er material that may of significance. It will be interesting to know how the wha how the minister proposes to define er materials er material significance, er who will issue guidance on that point er will it be the professional associations, is it something that the government is going to turn it's mind to and what is, what does it actually mean er for example if the auditor was looking at the Maxwell accounts er what what is a matter of material er er er significance, er for example would it be materially significant that just about every one er er who you spoke to at the time thought that Maxwell was a crook although interestingly that wasn't er apparently the view of the regulator or that are directly responsible for these matters, er but even before Maxwell was exposed for the the crook that he was er many, many people knew from him that his conduct, er the way his conducted himself, the D T I itself of course had said that he was a a a manifestly unsuitable person er to be in charge of a company. Is that is that an example of what er might be er information that would be of material significance. It would be helpful I think if the government er would say something about that. Madam Deputy Speaker there is course another matter of er of er broader significance and that is that er whilst these orders er er er cover erm certain financial institutions, they don't erm they don't cover others, they don't cover Lloyds of London in so far as I could see, erm I'd half expected to see the honourable member for Gloucester West er in his place to pursue his campaign that apparently he er he he is not able to be here and indeed er others who sit on the benches opposite who lost a large sum of money in Lloyds, er but they might have had something to say about it as it does seem odd that Lloyds has not been covered, no doubt the minister would tell us that needs primary legislation and I I'm quite sure this government would move heaven and earth not to introduce another Lloyds bill er because of er the problems that that would no doubt attract. But perhaps the minister could tell us er why they're not covered and indeed I understand that in particular er non-U K banks with branches in the in the in this country er are not covered either. I may be wrong about that erm but perhaps the minister could address himself specifically to that point and also to the question of pension schemes, perhaps er covered under some other legislation but I think these are matters that are of erm of of of some concern. Er, as I said the government has already accepted when we introduced the legislation last year in the criminal justice act on money laundering, that there are far wider er interests and fidrer fi far wider implications than there have been ever before and I think the government needs to do a little bit more to show that it is aware of international implications and the sheer scale of what we're dealing with and er I touched earlier on the question of indemnity, er perhaps the minister could specifically address that point. I notice that er section a hundred and nine of the financial services act nineteen eighty six er quite explicitly provides an indemnity. What is the position with regard to auditors in this case er what is the indemnity. I assume that if they can bring themselves within the terms of erm of these orders then they will er be indemnified. The question that arises though is if they can bring themselves only within er the er words used by the minister, will they be protected? Now er I'm thinking in in the case of er perhaps a young accountant advising on financial management who finds something odd and perhaps he reports it direct to the authorities, will he be covered or will he have to go through some procedure in order to bring himself within the protection? It is an important matter because clearly if er if the matter er if the suspicion er turns out to have been reasonable but not to bear t further examination then an accountant er could find themselves in great difficulty er both with regard to pecuniary difficulty and also professional difficulty and it's something the minister needs to look at. I think there are two substantial points that er the house ought to address itself to in conclusion. Firstly, and I return to this point which I have mentioned again and again in debates such as this and that's the the question of the lack of there being a central agency er in existence to see to the enforcement of these matters. It's been brought to my attention on a number of occasions by reputable bodies such as the stock exchange, that because of the multiplicity of regulations, er because of the complex nature of the legislation concerned and the er er the the comparatively large number of regulatory or supervisory bodies er that there is no er an and because of the fact that there are so many differences and standards and so on, that there is a need for a central enforcement body to bring together whatever evidence is available er so that these matters can be prosecuted, if I use that that general term. Now yes. I think that, if I may say so, is a mistaken view because because of the proliferation of rules and regulations he's probably right, another quango or another body is needed. What I think we're saying on this side of the house, I don't know if we're saying it loud enough or it's going to have effect, is that we must reduce the number of rules and regulations, you don't actually need the body which the honourable member's talking about. You don't want another body because of the number of rules and regulations, you want to reduce the number of rules and regulations, you don't need another body. Well I agree with the honourable gentleman to this extent and that as he knows er we would scrap the self regulatory system and make the S I B responsible for er regulating er er the industry and in time merge it with a banking er regulatory body, er so that would answer that point er and I think that the S I B er could also be responsible for the enforcement of these matters. Again, an extra quango wouldn't be needed and er he's probably aware of that there is a develo er there is a group of er of er various regulators who erm who operate under the acronym finn F I double N N and which is referred to er in the fact that I think the chancellor made some announcement about it. Er, I think it would be far better to have a streamlined regulatory system which would make the much cheaper and more efficient and I'm glad that the honourable gentleman seems to be agreeing and perhaps he could try and persuade his honourable mefem member on the front bench that legislation, primary legislation is needed, I'm glad to hear he's working on it erm on on the second on the second point he made about the number of regulations, I'm not sure I would agree with him that the best way of resolving this problem is to have less regulations er er though I would agree with the general er thrust of what he might be saying and that is that if the regulatory system was to concentrate on promoting higher professional standards and have less emphasis on rules and regulations then I think that would help. But when we're dealing as we are in this case, with fraud, then clearly there has to be regulations, there has to be er primary legislation er so that was the point I'm making but as I say, it's not just me, it's the stock exchange, the S I B, all of them believe that we need a single enforcement body to look at these matters and I do wish perhaps the minister does but the government must acc eople and a number of ople obviously with a number of traumas and a number of di exploit the different rules and regulations and to get through them because they know they are never going to be caught and the little chance of being prosecuted and even if they are prosecuted er then the chances of being convicted are remote and even if they are convicted I'm afraid that the judicial shi system shows er that the worst they can expect is a few hours mowing the grass in front of an old folks home or perhaps a few months er in the country residence, albeit owned by Her Majesty. It is something that the government needs to look at and indeed it goes hand in hand er with the need to overall the whole regulatory system er which is something that I've referred to often enough before er and I have no hesitation in repeating it again. Madam er deputy speaker, there is a feeling abroad in the country that an audit certificate is rather like an M O T certificate, it's good for the minute that it was granted but it is perfectly useless thereafter. I think that feeling has got to be dispelled and it's for these points that the, for these reasons the government needs to turn its attention a little bit more er to the issues that I that I have raised and I would refer in conclusion Madam de deputy speaker, the minister to the Bank of England's er memorandum submitted to the treasury and civil service er select committee in its report published on eighth of December last year when at page a hundred and eighty five they draw attention to the European directives that the minister himself referred to. I understand it's run into some difficulty but I urge the minister to press the commission to get a move on because this this is a problem that doesn't just affect this country, it is certainly a problem that affects the whole of Europe and the European union in particular but also the the er the whole of the world and it's something that needs international action. We er er erm in this country have a very bitter experience with B C C I, it wasn't just the knock it took to the regulatory system but I need hardly remind this house there are thousands of people who lost everything they had and that and there are many people who lost everything they had and feel that this house has not taken their concern seriously and it's something the minister must show that the government is willing to pursue these matters, even if it means introducing primary legislation. Madam Deputy Speaker I re read in the newspapers today that there has been s some criticism er that the matters such as this have been taken on the floor of the house. I think it's important these matters are taken on the floor of the house because they are very, very serious. Perhaps this debate won't be as lively and er as controversial as the one that er we arranged to have on the question of insider dealing but it is an important matter because auditing as I said, is not just as assistance to companies but it is a reassurance to the general public and the public at the moment are in need of grave reassurance that the insur that the er the financial services industry as well as industry generally, is being properly looked after and for these reasons er although we support er the orders before er the house tonight, we have no hesitation at all in ensuring that they are debated properly than not something that should simply go through on the nod. Hear, hear. Mr Anthony Madam Deputy Speaker. I I think erm a a as you've kindly called me er I think I will try and make this debate a little more lively erm but I'm not sure about being controversial er because here I was last week, I was making a speech about the significance of er the deregulation of contracting out bill and er I said then that the bill is so important because it is the first major attempt by government to slay the red tape dragon. The maxim that man learns nothing from history is often proved true that the bill I said shows the government learning from history. Er, I went on to say throughout the ages the government has repealed legislation, there's nothing new about repealing legislation it is repealed either because it is proved unworkable or because it's simply outlived its shelf life. I went on to say in the new world in which we live legislation has grown like topsy and thus requires more drastic pruning. Those in the house who are gardeners know that shrubs grow irregularly and to keep trees and shrubs in fine condition, pruning is essential. Madam Deputy Speaker, nineteen eighty nine there were five times more pages of legislation than in nineteen seventy nine. Brussels churned out five volumes of legislation before we joined the European community. It now churns out thirty seven volumes each year. However the cause is not simply too many Eurocrats in Brussels, directors of the commission are often sensible and come in general terms to Britain suggesting a simple way of dealing with the problem. Trouble is once a directive hits Whitehall bevies of officials are stirred into action, taking time and effort to interpret and rewrite the directive. Madam Deputy Speaker, throughout my speech last week I got approval er from the front bench, I got approving nods from my colleagues and winks and a hear hears whenever I said anything about deregulation. We have the president of the board of trade and industry making a stirring speech and saying that four hundred and forty proposals as a result of the booklet called cutting red tape were either being implemented or under active consideration and he talked about the explanatory guide to the bill, the new scrutiny committee that might be set up in each house, he spoke about the business task forces that had made over six hundred recommendations the debate I thought heralded was er er I thought the debate heralded er er a new age where over zealous officialdom would be a thing of the past. Where Whitehall mandolins would be sat on especially those who were involved in over interpreting general directives from Brussels and this side of the house has been jostling for position I am told, in order to get on the standing committee which is about to start upstairs. The aim of that bill is to cut back on rules and regulations, to reduce the number of statutory instruments which in nineteen ninety two reached a record level of three thousand three hundred and fifty nine, yes three thousand three hundred and fifty nine statutory instruments and here we are debating banks . the honourary member continues er are we being treated to a rerun of the speech made recently because I think it would be more appropriate if the honourable member discussed the orders tonight, otherwise there will be a bit a pruning from the chair. Madam Deputy Speaker, erm there'll be no need for any pruning from the chair because I had just mentioned the word banks at the very point that you madam speaker, got up and I can assure that er pruning would not be in order . here was that er we're debating banks and banking regulations building soc soc society orders, auditors regulations and financial services rules. Madam Deputy Speaker I didn't mention those at all in the speech I gave last week which was so warmly received by the house. Here are all my colleagues rushing upstairs with great enthusiasm, diving into the committee room, anxious to get on to curb the ever growing number of rules and regulations and whilst they're upstairs merrily getting on with it, here we are downstairs passing more things which we say we don't want to do. Will the honourable member give way? Yes. in favour er in his pursuit of er deregulation in scrapping all regulations er er about fraud, attempts to stop fraud, controls on fraud and is like this, is deregulation going to be a fraudsters fun day? where is the problem. Every regulation that this house pass is always a good reason for it. You'll find whether it be anything with safety, hygiene or security and fraud, there will always be quite rightly a pressure group or an interest group that will push for that rule or regulation. So I'm not a for a moment suggesting that some rules and regulations aren't needed and I think that er the trouble is that every rule and regulation that is passed in this house, there's always an excuse for it and there's usually a very good reason for it, but that is the problem that the government faces and it's quite fairly er a problem the treasury face when they introduce these statutory instruments because er no one can disagree that fraud must be stamped out, all I'm actually saying is that unfortunately upstairs we have a deregulation bill going ahead at all pace with hundreds of clauses and hundreds of new rules to try and red hundreds of new clauses to reduce the number of rules and here we are downstairs on the floor we have passing for very good reason perhaps, more rules and regulations and there are four more tonight and I believe that every government department Madam deputy speaker, has a minister specially appointed to keep an eye on deregulation and I just wondered although er my honourable friend on the front bench mentioned that er the even the D T I minister responsible for deregulation has looked at these, I wonder if there is a minister in the treasury, they've actually put a minister in the treasury responsible for deregulation or is the ministry actually above deregulation because I think that er I got the impression that the that every ministry would have a deregulation minister and I think it would be rather useful to know who the deregulation minister is in the treasury. I I I I know er it's been looked at by the D T I but has it been looked at by the treasury itself? You see Madam Deputy Speaker, deregulation unless we're very careful, could just become another layer of bureaucracy with a whole new sub culture of civil servants being consulted as to whether something should be deregulated or not. Gloriously obliv oblivious of what's going on next door, it could be a huge substructure, deregulation the new in thing. There'll be a new quango, there'll be a new S F R A, there'll be a government ministers er er and a lot of ci civil servants, we already have the deregulation unit. My concern Madam Deputy Speaker is whether we're all being hoodwinked into believing that deregulation bill is opening a new chapter in our legislative history when in fact it's no more than perhaps a weasel word describing one thing but er er another thing is happening. I'm sure the minister does have a very good reason as to why these four statutory instruments are needed and I'm sure both sides of the house recognise that they're needed. But I've been on an immense number of statutory instruments upstairs er and everybody says they're greatly needed, they usually say they're greatly needed because they want to go out in three or four minutes and ten thirty comes and ten thirty five they're out. Er, I mean, deregulation a bill er is not perhaps gonna affect the numbers of statutory instruments going through the house and I think that er the city would continue without the statutory instrument, er I think the country would continue, it would go on if we'd hadn't passed these regulations and in essence are these four new statutory instruments really going to help run the country more effectively er are we imposing duties on auditors er and regulators er with the securities er er tied up with the investment board, another quango, er do we need all this? And then of course the insurance regulations have a compliance cost assessment. Have the other statutory instruments have a compliance cost assessment? And the most interesting thing is that er the consultees found it difficult to assess the extent of any additional cost arising from deregulation so you had a regulation you had a compliance cost assessment and you had employed people, consulted as to whether in fact that statutory instrument was gonna cost any more. I wonder how much that cost. So I do think it's an industry which is very dangerous now and which could well get out of hand. I think Madam Speaker we seem to live in gobbledygook land. We seem to be able to argue vigorously and passionately about anything and equally passionately on reflection that we didn't really need the rule and regulation in the first place. As a nation we are now obsessed to the point of paralysis with rules and regulations. It's surprising one can move without some rule impeding on one's freedom, so concerned is the state on on the issues of welfare, hygiene, security and safety matters. Order er the honourable gentleman seems to have forgotten my previous warning, we're not discussing all manner of rules and regulations, we have four statutory instruments and he must address himself to those. I do hear what you say but these four regulations are in the framework of the whole government policy towards rules and regulations. One can't actually separate them, although you will try to, from all the other rules and regulations we are passing all over the place. What I am trying to do is to, is to question the wisdom of introducing more rules and regulations and every time I try and raise this issue, whether it be in standing committee or on the floor of the house, quite understandably the chairman or the speaker, deputy speaker in your case, raises the point that in fact I'm going outside the rules and regulations and the result is you can never challenge the whole principle because every time one tries to challenge it one gets up and that's the disease I'm afraid we've now er facing in this country. But Madam Deputy Speaker I will appear. May I remind the honourable member that there is no reason why he should not tear to pieces these four statutory instruments if that's what he wishes, but that is what he must do not deal with all the others. I am grateful for that direction. In fact in my own way, though I'm not as clear as some honourable members, I was actually doing that erm but er er I was pointing out that these were better than most although all of them could we could have perhaps done without. Madam Deputy Speaker I was gonna give a very illustrative example of what I'm talking about but perhaps I will allow the house to have that example on another occasion because I actually would prefer not to be er er er prevented from giving you the most vivid story of what I'm talking about. But clearly this isn't the right place er er but I'm never sh . I'm never sure Madam actually when is the right place is but it's certainly not now, erm Madam Deputy Speaker. I'm just wondering er the statutory instruments we're passing tonight er and I did raise this point to the minister about the drain on the private sector every time a rule and regulation is passed. I think it was reassuring to learn that er these er er these rules and regulations will not impact on private enterprise. Because it would be bad news for the country if we are witnessing another fight between the private sector and the state and I hope that we're not going to see in the whole rules and regulation industry, versus er the public a sort of repeat of the Moriarty, Sherlock Holmes final fight er with never knowing who in fact er wins as the battle of o of continues. Madam Deputy Speaker I only wanted to make a short intervention er er on this point and I think I will return to it from time to time because it is a perennial, annual problem of every time the minister introduces a a rule and regulation we can understand it's extremely useful and how can one say that er regulations about fraud are not useful, it's just the culture of our country has been besieged by these rules and regulations and I'm surprised that anybody can actually make any profit or do any business simply because of the weight of officialdom and the weight of rules and regulations which prevents them from getting above er the the surface. I I think that that's really the message which I'm quite sure er the the economic secretary has got er and I do apologise if I have laboured the point but I will be doing so until we can have a situation where we don't go on passing more rules and regulations but in fact all the legislation coming to the house is purely repealing legislation so we don't actually need any fresh legislation, we just repeal what in fact er we have introduced er because it is it is er not helpful to the prosperity of this country. Mr Austin Mitchell. won't attempt to follow the honourable rerun er of his speech last week on deregulation bill. Except to note that now that the right honourable member for Chesterfield is publishing his former speeches as a video, it is rather a cheap operation to come and repeat them in the chamber er rather than putting them out er for public consumption there are places where he could repeat the kind of speeches just given, unfortunately the government is closing most of them down at the moment and putting the cut the inhabitants out in the community er but it had no relevance to the er the subject we're dealing with today. Talking of reruns Madam er deputy speaker, er I almost feel I'm involved in a series of reruns with the er with the minister himself because er in a series of bills er committees in the eighties, standing committees on the building societies bill, on the banking bill, on the financial services er bill, as they all were, er he was speaking at that time er in favour of more effective regulation, backing the votes of this side er for kind, the kind of policies it's introducing today. They were speaking in favour of it, now here he comes along er and er we we're I I find myself, regrettable I think because er er his er a minister very well informed in these areas with er who made in those committees a very powerful and effective contribution,now we find ourselves on the er opposite side but I have to say now that we are on opposite side that what is introducing today er is really er too little er and far too er too too late. It's inadequate er and it it creates the impression in my mind, the very possibility that the government is actually is in favour of fraud because they're doing to little, far too little er and these regulations are far too little er to actually stop it down. Is it that the fraudsters are the only section of society that is going to vote for the Conservatives er at the at the at the next election because certainly er the reputation of the city of London er is going down all the time because of the squalid frauds that are being perpetrated there a and the government is lagging behind er in catching up and in providing an effective regulatory framework er that's that's going to deal er with them. This Madam Deputy Speaker, is no way to regulate for for a major issue. We've had no inquiry. These er er orders today aren't based on a thorough inquiry er into how audits on the the financial institutions are conducted, what's wrong with them, what goes wrong, not even a thorough er inquiry into what happened in the B C C I case, er we can't legislate, we can't legi or regulate I put it without er er er a thorough inquiry and yet here we have er orders brought in er without inquiry. The the the they're not fitted in to any framework of stronger structures to back er the proposals put before us er er t today. We have a confused and overlapping structure er er, the honourable member might be interested in just how confused it is er and how it can be simplified by er going along with the proposals we're putting forward on this side of the er er the house because there's so many overlapping authorities it's just not clear who's actually responsible for enforcement and compliance. I mean if you take the regulatory we did it with today that it consists of the Bank of England, the Securities and Investment Board, twenty four organisations of the S I B S, siblings you might call them er under it, the Building Societies Commission, the police, the serious fraud office, the Department of Trade and Industry, the London Stock Exchange, the Inland Revenue, five recognised supervisory bodies, all those dealing with er auditors and the others, it's chaos er and nobody knows who is responsible for what and in that chaos you get overlapping decisions er er and conflicting regulations, everybody tries to ensure themselves by regulating too much er er and it's a situation which drastically needs simplification, but we don't have any proposals for strengthening and making that work er er frame work more effective, to back up er this er simple proposal today. All we have is the government time from time to time tweaking up the regulations as its er as its er it it it its doing here. You cannot rely on them deputy speaker if the government is doing er in these orders er on auditors to be er the effective and certainly not the only er police force of financial institutions. They can't relied on as a guarantee of public interest and propriety as a counter against fraud because their powers, their role, their functions, the way they carry on their business is inadequate to deal with that particular area. honourable member what he's really saying as I understand it Madam Speaker is there's too much bureaucracy and the bureaucracy is going to prevent anybody acting because they're all overlapping, they're all paid out of presumably the public purse as well, there's a there's a enormous number of public off officials that is preventing er a a clear direct,exes executive arm. Is that what he's saying? Yes there are far too many overlapping institutions that self regulation hasn't worked, it ha has no adequate on the annualt we welcomed 21 effective against fraud by replacing it by an independent statutory statutory based regulator which has the power to strike and strike hard rather than everything er by the the the plethora of regulations we now deal with in the financial er in the financial sector and in the respect of what's proposed today, you can't rely er on auditors to be the effective police force that they've been required to be by these er regulations. We don't even have an effective definition of who the auditors er are are are responsible to. What the government is proposing er is the bare minimum and because it's so minimal you have to ask are they really serious er about dealing with the the kind of fraud that er lead er to this attempt to close the er stable door er after the er the the horse has has bolted. I I turn that that the point I made about the the the lack of inquiry because er er in effect we know very little about what went wrong with B C C I and particularly what went wrong with the audit er of B C C I because we haven't had an inquiry er into this country and to what went wrong in that instance. That instance is the justification er for these orders but we don't know er exactly what happened, the government hasn't seen fit to institute an inquiry which will tell us. We need the information the last Labour government er when they were banking er banking crisis in the early er in the early seventies, instituted a series of inquiries, there was an inquiry into London and counties, there was one into London and capital, a series of inquiries which were published, the information was there, we knew what had gone wrong and we knew therefore how to deal with it. In this instance there's nothing er and er justice Bingham er did say specifically that he wasn't pursuing er the matter of er audit, it wasn't his responsibility er the government should certainly have repaired that omission by pursuing it themselves, by inquiring er into er what went wrong. Ministers say well the serious fraud office is looking into it but that hasn't precluded inquiries er in other cases like London United Investments and Maxwell er so there should be an inquiry er into the audit of B C C I so we know exactly what went wrong. I indeed er in the er companies act in nineteen eighty nine the minister himself er argued that for any system to be effective there had to be a distance between regulators and regulations but the only people who have done any inquiry into B C C I which is the Institute er it itself is the mafia regulating the mafia auditors trying to regulate er the the auditors. There isn't that degree of distance which the minister himself asked for er in the committee er on which we both sat er in er nineteen eighty nine. The only inquiry has been the American one and that was handicapped because the British er er partners of er Price Waterhouse didn't pass on to either that inquiry or to the American partners of Price Waterhouse, the information they had about what had gone wrong with B C C I so that inquiry itself was inadequate but it is the only one and what that found er was appalling er indeed they were pretty critical about British audit regulation, about the auditors performance. It says B C C I's accountants failed to protect B C C I's innocent depositors er and creditors from the consequences of poor practice. No the Okay. Hello. Hiya. Well is this the day you've to have your head cut off? Your mum? Me? Your mum to get her head cut off? Has she? Mhm. You sure? Mm . You'd have a headless mum. Mm. Mm? Do you want the doctor ? Na. Na Na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na. Now then what what'll we do to your mum? Can I have a signing off form for the insurance please? Well would you te pulse I'm gonna get in a minute as well, she's just gonna . Just be quiet Stacey, please. Ob no. Are you sure you don't want your head cut off? Na. Go on. Na. Na. Na na, na,na. Eh so whe what day do you want to be signed off for then for this? Just today. Today right. Stacey will you show him . Can I have my I don't water tablets please Doctor? Hold on to that for your mum. And sleeping pills. Sleeping Just but I've got a sore back as well. Sore back. It's just cos they Okay? She says that to half the town. mummy . I think maybe we'll put you in the bin. Mm Give you mum some peace and quiet. Not me. Mm Does she know him? I'm going to this . Have go out and play. go out and play this Mm? time,there's nobody else out playing . Everybody in the block was still sleeping when we Yeah. left this morning. Mm. I know they quite right They can get a long lie. They're not getting a long lie. There's wrong with having a bit All the day all the day's wasted isn't it? Mhm. Give that to your mum. That's a girl. The next time you come can I cut your head off? Bye bye. Can I cut your head off the next time? Can I? Maybe Can I cut your head off the next time? Cheerio. Cheerio. Cheerio now. Ah well, he'll tell you about that later. Erm obviously all the information here in the get up of this session is copyright . Now, the defences that we're involved in er are taking conveyance. Your client is alleged to have taken a conveyance . Erm, there's a possibility of dangerous driving as well. Let's look at document two. , is that your group? What would you say about document two? Document two . Right. Section four . Section four what? Twenty four. Sorry, twenty four, my mistake. Okay? What does section twenty four require? There's an additional That's not relevant here, is it? Yeah, I think there's some confusion here. Erm, in a civil case the rules of hearsay are basically of little importance because they can almost always be got round. For example, a person compiles a statement under a , that statement can be introduced under cross-section? Four Four. right? There is an equivalent section that relates to criminal evidence which allows a, a statement to be introduced but only where the needs, where the, I hate that word, the, where justice requires it to be introduced. And the purpose of that section is to prevent trials becoming paper trials where the prosecution do not call evidence. Now, they call evidence under a section nine, you, you can agree a section nine statement, prosecution statement, but you don't have to, right? And in this case you would not agree to statement being written, say being read out, you wouldn't require him to be present, and it could not be introduced under section twenty four because the court would find that it was in the interests of ju justice that it doesn't . Why is it in the interests of justice that ? Why shouldn't the case be conducted just on cross-examination, because of cross-examination? I mean criminal trials are oral trials where the evidence is given orally so that the witnesses can be cross- examined under a and be judged by the tribunal of fact. Okay?assume that a prosecution statements will be admissible in themselves and always assume that witnesses will give more evidence. Okay ? So will give evidence. If he doesn't want to give evidence that y , alright? So, assuming that he gives evidence any a evidential points ? You can't see whether you, you're acting for , what's your attitude to this statement? Anything in it you're not happy with? Right, what's the problem about that? So, sorry, what are you saying exactly? Where are we exactly? Are we at the in the statement? Pardon? Whereabouts are we in the statement? On the second page. Right, page eight. It was who took both cars, okay? Yeah Alright. You see what's happened there. That the police have got the witness to erm sign, initial, every line. That's not uncommon . Okey-dokey. What is the state of those statements? It was , he took both cars. Self-serving statements. It is indeed a self-serving statement statement, so, so what does that give us? If you were to characterize this, this interview, what would you call it? It's a text. By who? Part of the confession is a self-serving part, it's a er, possibly mixed statement. Er, in which he blames somebody else, okay? What is the effect of that? Against who? Against your client ? Yes? Do you agree with that? No. Why not? Right, the confession is only admissible against the maker. The statement implicating is not admissible against . Now, when the police officer when the police officer comes to court and goes through this statement, and it's a confession, what would you normally call what he's reading out? I heard say suppose I It's hearsay. But why does it have to be that? It's an exception to the hearsay rule. The confession is an exception to the hearsay rule. Okay? But it's an exception to the hearsay rule that only applies against the maker. Because it is something made against your own interest. Erm, the rule of evidence is that it is inherently unlikely that anybody would make a statement against their own interest unless it was true. Right? You might very well say that you were the greatest law lecturer in the world, because people tend to say these things about themselves. It would be unlikely that you would say that you were the worst law lecturer in the world unless you were. Okay?it's a statement against your own interest. This is a separate argument from whether you actually made the statement or not, or whether it was bullied out of you like in the case. But if you did genuinely make that statement it's more likely to be true if it's against your interest, rather than for your interest. Okay? If a double-glazing salesman tells you that his product is crap, believe him. Alright? Get worried if he tells you it's very good. Okay? Right. Because of that reason the confession is admissible against yourself as an admission, as an exception, to the hearsay rule. It is not admissible against the . Does that mean that the parts that are inadmissible are stuck out and you can give evidence only to the parts that are not self-serving? What do you think? What would be the point of the evidence if it's not implicating in trial? There's no point. The whole thing . Now, if the police think that this aspect of the case is important to them, how would they get the evidence in? Oral testimony of? , call . Okay? Can give evidence about trial? What other circumstances? Good. Yes. Relevant point. Here is, he's pleading guilty. What he's pleading guilty, he is competent to give evidence against . His evidence is then direct evidence. I saw do this. Okay? It is no longer hearsay. You no longer have to bring it within an exception. Yes? Not easy, this stuff. Not easy. Alright, now. I now want to go to back to the beginning of the statement. When you are dealing with statements, you must start off and go through it step by step and not leap ahead. Now, is there anything in the first paragraph that anybody thinks raises an evidential point? I think so. I can tell a race when I see one. Erm, I go to Silverstone to see races for two reasons. One, because they are advertised as that race and two, I see them dashing around the track. I think that's irrelevant. Okay? Anything else? First paragraph? Erm, yes. I can probably say I asked the driver for his . Yes I think cross-examine him. Are we happy about cross-examining, do you think? Yes? Great, yeah, that's cross- examining. . Yes? No problems about cross-examining him? We, if you comes and gives evidence against us, then we can either show that he's incorrect in a substantive way, or we can attack his credibility. How might we attack his credibility? He's got previous convictions, right. We know about that. No problem about bringing up his previous convictions? Right, we lose our shield. We have a shield under the which prevents the prosecution in a normal case from bringing to the attention of the court the fact that we have previous convictions. We are a, an innocent man until we are shown to be guilty. However, if we don't and we say we're lily white but the prosecution solicitor, prosecution witnesses, are all bent, then we lose that shield and they can say, hey you're not lily white, you're bent as well. Right. So, if gives evidence, having become competent because he has pleaded guilty, erm, then we can cross-examine him, but we are in difficulties if we then bring up his previous convictions attack his credibility. In the same way as you lose your shield whenever you attack a prosecution witness. So, for instance, if you have an argument with the police er on a matter, you might very well have to say to the police, I think officer you were take that and say you're a lying bastard . If you take the latter point of view but you will also put your client's character . Okay? If your client has good character, fine, if he's got bad character . What is the best tactical way of dealing with your client's bad character? Now second paragraph? Maybe. You don't really know how he had this information. It appears to be hearsay of some sort and therefore is erm inadmissible. What would you do about that if you were at court acting for your client?that paragraph from the earlier comments. Er, what would you do? You could have a trial. I would suggest that that is not very helpful. If you have a trial within a trial in the crown court, what happens? If you have a trial within a trial at the magistrates court, what happens? Yeah. and deal with your objection and then puts it out of their mind if they find that the evidence is inadmissible, doesn't work. Right. So it's very important that you avoid magistrates court. Why can't you avoid the magistrates court in this case? Erm, he did have the right to that trial for erm what the previous offence before taking conveyance which was a clock taken without the owner's consent and previous offence before that taking but in order to reduce costs right mainly because they also want at the same time to remove the right for theft ah and they failed. That is, of course , because people who steal biscuits from are usually are usually middle class etcetera etcetera but people who steal cars generally tend to be toerags, I think the expression is, erm and therefore nobody much cares. Right. So they lost their rights in that trial very bad idea. So how would you get round that? Good. pointing out the evidence that you think is inadmissible and any reasonable will the police officer doesn't refer to it. Okay? I'm still interested in paragraph one. You, you looked at this over the weekend and thought there's not much in this, is there? Hopefully you'll think again he's stating, I'm for it now. Distress it could be I suppose. It is intimately connected with the offence. Does anybody understand exception to the hearsay rule? He could be, but what is it really? Does anybody know? It's not really hearsay. No, because he's not actually admitting anything. I mean,if the police stop you on the motorway, you know you're for it, whether you've done anything or not. You'll certainly have an unpleasant few minutes True. It's admissible only reaction. The same as when you're charged you're asked if you have anything to say reaction only and not hearsay. Remember that hearsay is a statement, oral or written, made outside of court, introduced into court for the, in order to show that it's true, okay?you look completely gobsmacked. I am. Why would it be hearsay anyway? Because it's certainly a statement made out of court because or he's making it with reference to something else. Ah. If it's oral yes. That would be hearsay. It would not be simply direct evidence, yes. Alright makes his confession, let's assume at the moment that it is admissible and gives evidence . Anything about the statement itself, or, or the interview itself, that you would object to on behalf of? Why do you object to that? It's . It's completely inadmissible. Okay? Unless what? Sure, this is where I, this is where erm I must say that I never quite understood this, but if the prosecution witnesses, in their statements or in their oral evidence, refer to your client's bad character, then that is inadmissible, completely inadmissible. Right. If you then cross-examine them and attack their credibility your shield goes in and then after that your previous good character, but only in the context of you being cross-examined by the prosecution. Right. So at no stage would this ever go in. At no stage would this reference ever be admissible because it's not going to be relevant after your shield's gone in because your shield going in relates to the questions understanding be agree or correct me but this is how I understand the situation. So references to bad character are never admissible. There are other references to bad character here. showed me how to do it. It was 's fault, he made me do it. Okay? Var various other pathetic . What about ? Are you happy with his treatment at, at the police station? Why not? No record of the tape at all. Erm, or what else, crucially?? , more further crucial problem? Were you arrested and taken to the police station and cautioned? Erm What's the fir who's the first manifest you see? It's the custody sergeant, okay, the custody officer,the custody officer. So in so far as that affects the confession it may mean that it could be removed but that's really completely irrelevant to you because erm that's his confession, not evidence against him. If he comes to court, what happened at the police station doesn't matter because he'll then give direct evidence, not what he said in the police station but what actually happened on that night in the, in the estate. Does everybody follow that? Is anybody confused? Do you want me to go through that again? So the fact that there was no solicitor relevant in this case because the whole confession isn't relevant to It may be very very relevant to what happens to but with regard to your client , this statement is not evidence against him because his confession is admissible only against the maker. If he turns up for court and he says, yes I had a terrible time at the police station and there were all sorts of breaches of but I am now here on a, I'm gonna tell the truth, that's no problem. It's the evidence he gives on oath what matters. What happened before is irrelevant. Yes? Okay. Right . Let's go on to document three. We want to go through that line by line so Erm, what were the words you'd complain about? Erm, not necessarily complain but interview police officer about when he was told that upsets my mother Sorry, am I, oh yes, yes you're absolutely right. Is that it?object to, it's just a point which we thought about raising later on. We might be able to just So the rest of the paragraph you're obviously happy with? Anybody else? Anybody? Any comments? A woman came to the door who I, whom I recognized as , 's mother. She said, oh my God, they've come for . Hearsay exception relates to the state of mind of the defendant. What the relevance of what? Well, what can you primarily infer from the words ? Guilt, or? Conviction surely, known to the police? He recognizes her but how, how many er, let me put it this way, if the police came to your house to talk to your mother, would you expect them to recognize her, or would you expect him to say, oh my God they've come ? You may or may not . It would seem to show that er is known to the police. Okay? On the face of it, the argument I think is this, the words, oh my God he's come for are hearsay, sorry, are not hearsay, because although they're an out of court statement they're not introduced as the truth. They're just reported speech. Okay? But they are almost certainly excluded by common law. Does anybody know the common law principle? This may well be for those of you who did in fact agree. I don't think that the erm go into this properly and I don't, I think will have dealt with it in lectures, but essentially there's a common law principle that says if a matter is more prejudicial than evidential it should not be read. Here it may be that er it's important to say er what she said value or what relevance it has to the trial of the son anyway. But let's say he did. It clearly is highly prejudicial and therefore whatever spurious relevance it may have should be waived against prejudicial, in fact should be excluded. Okay? Right. , your client is interviewed, document four, are you happy with the contents ? Any other reasons for not being happy? Anybody else? Any other? erm, possibly drunk or possibly . Okay,problems,problems here. So what? Is that what you're worried about? Is that what you wanna do here? Do you want to it? Why do you want to it? It's not . It's not a paid profession and therefore the exclusion of this statement under section six two is irrelevant. This is not a confession. Is there anything here that constitutes anything approaching a confession? this, this is about being in lines. If you had it numbered, you could refer to a number. What page are we on? Er, page eleven It's twenty eight and sixty eight. . What, the man said, I'll get you for this? Right. Is that a confession? was convicted on the murder of after the judge ruled that a statement to the police was admissible. The statement he made was, you say you've got witnesses but none of them will give evidence against me. Okay? That was held to be a confession. Now. Okay, fair enough, it was turned over on appeal eventually erm but erm it was a bit of a miscarriage of justice being kept in prison for that period of time until it was overturned pleaded guilty to another murder but that's by the by. Potentially, the bastard I'll get him for this, could be a confession. It's pretty iffy but it is fairly ambiguous, isn't it? But the problem is if this is taken out of context with the rest of the statement, the judge might leave it to the jury. I don't think it would be right to do so. The judge should exclude it. So, what you have to argue is that that is not a confession. If it is not a confession the whole statement isn't a confession. it is, other than that. Is the statement admissible? Can detective constable come to court, show the jury, hand out to the jury the statement which would stand up in court? No. Why not? And? Good. It is not an exception to the rule gives details of alibi witnesses. What should the police do about those alibi witnesses? Find them. Find them, check 'em out. Let's look at er document five. Okay?, do you want to deal with that? Comments in that should tell you that is retired. He's unemployed and retired, in his sixties. I do understand the expression, to know by sight. The Oxford University Library should be worried , but I said what about his sight? I should, I should warn you that it's best to say that only witnesses perhaps have problems with their sight, not that they are senile. Because . Alright? So, there are problems about the identification. It's a case. What is the effect of that? Now, in some situations, the magistrate might say there's so little value in the evidence here that I won't hear it all, I'll just exclude it. Is this such a case? Is the I D evidence so weak? He's identified him in the I D . Is the identification, does the identification at the I D parade strengthen the original identification? It really does. If you think about it, if you have a fleeting glimpse of somebody, you then identify that person at the I D parade, you will, the quality of your identification is now higher than it was in the fleeting glimpse. Yes? The fact that you've made your I D not corroborative evidence evidentially corroborative evidence is really supportive evidence. What would the supporting evidence, supporting evidence mean here? It can't be another identification. Or could it be?is with him at the end of the day only evidence against is weak identification evidence then the case would have been thrown out. Sorry? So, the court other evidence. One possibility is a failed alibi. The equivalent to being caught lying. What is the other possible corroborative or supporting evidence here? , the evidence of the co-accused if he's pleading guilty . Of course, if you were to give evidence, what would the co what would the magistrates do? They'd warn themselves. They'd have to warn themselves. I warn you. Yes, I warn you, I warn myself. Completely ridiculous but that is how it works. Now, what about the next one? Six young . What points do you make about young ? Well, she . Erm Are you happy with this statement? Well already happy with it. What's the effect of this statement? Okay. The rich peasant economy in paving the way for new China's industrialization the economic impact of land reform. Land reform had always been considered by the leadership of the Chinese Communist Party to be a means to an end, indeed it could provide a way forward for China on economic, social, communist and ideological grounds. It was therefore very useful a tool for the Party to adopt during this period of experimentation of how to achieve successful reconstruction of the countryside. It is also important to realize that the C C P had a range of objectives for power up until nineteen forty nine. These can be summarized as the desire to achieve mass mobilization and the disruption of feudalism through land reform which the Party believed would ensure their political stability in power as well as contributing to the eventual realization of socialism. Although their short-term aims of land reform varied throughout, the Party had always strived to destroy feudalism. This is illustrated by examination of all their land documents. After the first of October nineteen forty nine, however, their political power was more or less secure due to. By this time the C C P had almost completed the destruction of feudalism in the countryside in the north of China. The Party now needed to come up with a longer term programme of how to pave the way towards socialism in China as a whole, paying particular attention to the different economic situation in the south which could indeed significantly influence their future strategy. One of the most valuable lessons the Party had learnt during the initial twenty years of land reform was that socialism could only be achieved through stages. Land reform as outlined in the Agrarian Reform Bill of nineteen fifty was to provide a vital step forward for China through the preservation of the rich peasant economy in order to pave the way for industrialization which was seen as a prerequisite for collectivization. Absolute egalitarianism of nineteen forty six to forty eight had failed due to the limited amount of land available for redistribution. The Party now realized that a more moderate policy of land reform was the most appropriate one for China thus there was a temporary change in emphasis away from land reform to a desire to increase production. To some, however, it merely appeared that the C C P were pragmatists and that by nineteen fifty were sacrificing ideological objectives for economic and political expediency. Though a case for this could be argued, it's important to realize that the longer term goal of socialism had not changed it was only that the rules to achieving it which had. It is necessary to take into account all these factors when evaluating the economic impact of land reform so that one can beg begin to understand why China did not achieve a more spectacular economic recovery during communist rule the significance of the preservation of the rich peasant economy, and also why the Party decided to focus its new policy on industrialization. What then were then economic affects on land reform on the preservation of the rich peasant economy ? Can I just stop you there, just for a second? Can we you, you've said some quite important things i in this , can we just sort of clarify this before going on. Can I just clarify, what, what you're saying is that in a sense there is this overall aim of getting through to socialism but the means of getting there have now changed so that we've gone from absolute egalitarianism, which is, is an immediate step tow towards socialism you've gone away from that and the position is now to create a rich peasant economy in order to industrialize, in order to get through to collectivization, I E into socialism. S s so socialism is a is a long way off. Right. Is is, is that how it struck you? Tha that's my Yeah. So that rich peasant economy is only a short,i it's a means to an end essentially. Was that ever made explicit? Did they ever sort of erm you know say this is just a temporary step for us? Erm no I, I don't think, I think it's more implicit. Erm I'm, I'm not away of any documents. What, what do you mean? What are you going to ? Well I, I just thought perhaps erm, you know, if there was any erm sort of up-front to this idea of you know going through some sort of dialectical model career towards socialism. Ho how would you expect to see that expressed? Well I don't know somebody say Mao leading to such and a such a phase or here's what we intend to do in order to There's a usually a reason for their policy isn't there? Usually, like Mao usually gives some reason. They were constrained by s I mean like what they wanted to do was constrained by the practical sort of necessities of the time and even if they had wanted to have a more vigorous policy of land reform Mm. it wasn't possible because there was a shortage of land and that how that absolute egalitarianism had shown that how that it couldn't work if they wanted to raise everybody's level towards a middle peasant status. They, they did have the option that they could have had complete absolute egalitarianism and made everybody into a poor peasant, but the commun but the commun the Communist Party were progressive and they s saw that how that you needed to have industrialization in order to increase the welfare of peasants which was their ultimate aim, and I mean it appears that how that they didn't actually care er what kinds of means they'd have to achieve that, as in capitalism was justified in this longer term perspective. So do you, do you think erm this, this sort of movement towards the er cities and urban centres, this sort of gravity focus, do you think that indicated any sort of error sort of thing in, in land reforms ? Well it's not, they're not saying it's solved they're saying it has to be delayed until it's actually possible. Ultimately they're still keeping land reform as a long term objective cos that's when you, you say land reform, do you mean land reform or do you mean socialism collectives ? Erm I mean them both, they wanted they thought that the only way you could get effective sociali socialism was through industrialization Right. and that how that once you've got socialism you would want to have erm absolute egalitarianism er to eliminate erm class distinction so it's probably a combination of the two. Right. W w w w we now have that reform, I mean thi this is I mean what w Well you have land reform in the north but not in the south. Right. But we,w we as of nineteen forty nine or early nineteen fifty, it's clear that we are, there, there, there's nothing to stop us now going ahead with land reforms, there is no question it's going to happen Right. but what they're saying,i i it's not going to be egalitarian land reform Mm. so there's, there's no question that feudalism is, is going to end, that, that's, that's no problem at all and we have land reform. But it's non-egalitarian land reform. So you've, is there then a choice between going for socialism now, going straight into collectivization or delaying it and keeping that end product in sight? But as you say changing the means to the end, I E you go for the industrialization first and once you've got that you can then move forward to collectivization. Well I didn't think they could've gone straight into socialization because they didn't have the resources to. Right. They had to improve the productivity they, they had to improve the productivity from the land and im well not productivity, just efficiency generally, and that how that it wouldn't have made economic sense for them to have gone straight for socialism. Right. Yes. Would it have made social or political sense to have done it? It wouldn't have made political sense in that how the, they were deliberately choosing cautious policy which would enable them to stay in power. Right. So you'd support this policy, er th th th the strategy is right that, that, that you, you allow land reform to settle down, you allow the rich peasant economy to develop and out of that rich peasant economy will come the resources for industrialization and then you'll be able to collectivize? Didn't it have this sort of political pattern to it when you said they could've done it Well whatever they wanted to, whatever it was then they perhaps could've gone towards more You mean they could've, they could've gone for the Soviet style collectivization? I don't know. Erm I'm, I'm not sure. Mm. I'm just saying that they could've gone Yeah. perhaps more egalitarian. Yes. Er er certainly in retrospect one, one might argue that erm politically there was nothing to stop them Mm. certainly going much further than they did, don't quite know how far you would go Mm. erm well would,w w would anybody want to advocate that, yes, the option was to go for collectivization fairly quickly? Very quickly. In order to achieve what, just to fulfil their ideological objectives? Well the Party was reaction of the sort of the peasants in the villages, if they we if they went straight for collectivization, straight er immediately after the peasants had received this wonderful gift of land in land reform Right. and if it was forced upon them that this land's going to have to be put into a, a kind of block Yes. erm there'd be a bit of er an anti reaction from the villages towards that and I think that was what they worried about, and that's why they, they adopted a more careful policy of more, more like suggesting, I E they, they introduced these mutual aid teams and suggested that it would be beneficial for the peasants to join together in these teams. Right. Th there, there's, there's nothing, I mean I, I the points so,i i i in a sense although the revolution had promised the peasant their own land Mm. er and that is what the peasants wanted I mean th th that was what they thought they were gonna get out of revolution, that was what they wanted to get out of revolution That's what they'd been fighting for for twenty years. Right. So there certainly wouldn't, are you saying there, there would not have been a, a kind of groundswell of from the peasants themselves in order to go for collectivization No. and there would have been not, not immediately collective ownership. Well things like sharing tools and animals. Yeah. sharing the plot of land. Er well I think some did and some didn't But er as a, as a peasant would you have wanted to share land? I think putting their, putting plots together and you know Mm. disseminating these square metres and sort of plots and stuff like that. I mean if you your land I mean okay Yeah. What are you saying I'm saying the peasants wanted more land. Of, of their own? Of their own, yeah. Yeah. Is, is there a difference between owning ten acres of and owning ten acres of ? Erm yeah I If you work your own land you will work it until you're dead to the bone. If you've got ten people I mean there's no guarantee they're gonna work as well you. . Exactly. But, but wasn't the, the emphasis behind the, the communist approach at this time was that er er up until nineteen fifty that, that private enterprise in itself would, would be the means by which output increased. They said if you give the peasant the land it will give them the enthusiasm to work hard, they will increase their output. Now that might be wrong but i surely that was the reality of the time, that was the expectation, that was the whole idea that was coming over in terms of, of sort of propaganda and policy, whatever you want to, to call it. And if, if, I think there, there was a very deep belief within the that they wanted to own their own land. Now if, if you take those bits er wouldn't one have to argue that, that the move into capitalization was straight away Mm. was w would not go down very well,i it, it would mean overturning the whole emphasis of policy and it would mean going against So you, A you would have to change your policy, B you would have to force the process. Erm but didn't the peasant culture already have erm sort of elements of collectivization alread I mean which the Communist Party could Yes. build upon. Right. Fine. But w but th but that is, that is different to erm To having a policy to, to having a collectivization policy an and moving forward so that immediately into socialism. Mm. Also one would have to work out whether peasants were subsistence minded in that how that once they'd achieved their subsistence was that all they would want or would they really want to sort of erm work harder and start sharing all their tools and implements in order to gain an even higher productivity. Would they have a high leisure preference for example. In that how would they prefer not to work so hard yes right. they just keep a certain level of Yes. Right. Which that, that then gets you into the issue of whether you are deliberately going to being creating a rich peasant economy and s erm so using the rich peasant economy as the leading sector. Wi will you come on to talk about that at all? Mm not What was the erm what was the link between the rich peasant as the economy industrialization? Well what, what might have been? Well erm the creation of surplus for investment I suppose. Right, yes. Right. The Communist Party certainly thought, I mean the reason wh one of their justifications for preserving the rich peasant economy was that how that it's thought the middle peasants would want to try to rise up to br Yeah to be rich peasants. erm erm yeah, to rich peasants and that how that that's how why they couldn't encroach their interests because then Yes. it would erm you know, alienate the middle peasants for Yeah. but whether that was true Right. Now I think that is true mm. erm and surely this, this is the implication that we were talking about last week, that erm if, if you are going to promote industrialization which is now the aim somebody's gotta produce a surplus for investment for that. Erm and it's er within the countryside it's going to be a rich peasant who's going to do that. So you nee you've got to create or preserve a group who have a surplus over and above subsistence. They're a group that you can tax. They're a group which is able to save and invest. Er so you promote that rich peasant economy. If you're pr promoting that rich peasant economy, you are hoping that middle peasants will be upwardly ambitious and mobile and, and will also move up to be, to be rich peasants. And erm where's the labour supply going to come from? You couldn't just Well there's, there's still, as we've seen there's still a, a very big group of poor. Yeah rural poor sort of shift into the towns. Well yes you, you, you've got two , one is you've got erm the rural poor who will provide a labour force in the countryside for rich peasants and you've, because you have got a labour market and because there are no limits on mobility, then presumably there will be some poor peasants who will decide no I'll get out, I'll industry's going to get going, I will be able to earn more money in a town, or sons would go off and, and so, so there should be, you should provide a, have a supply of labour, whereas if you've got everybody, if everybody had been in middle peasant status erm there would have been no incentive to do that because everybody would have been self sufficient within the countryside. So so that the promotion of a rich peasant economy is the way to finance and support industrialization. This is what they thought? This is what they thought. Well I, I mean assumptions about rich peasant what's he gonna do, buy a factory or something? I mean Well they're investment themselves, if you take it off them in tax then Or, or, or you, you've got some financial institutions through which savings. Mm. But if you had a rich peasant economy that you're gonna tax all the time, I mean he's not gonna much is he? Was er, was this industrialization envisaged being a sort of purely urban thing, or were they trying to encourage er rural industry as well? Erm rural industry is being encouraged in that no rural industrial commercial enterprises are being confiscated so, so you are, you are encouraging that and presumably if anybody sets anything up they're going to be able to keep it. But if, if if this is the strategy which is being adopted in broadly it is being adopted I mean I'm, I'm not just sort of arguing just for the sake of arguing, it is Yes. Mm. Mm. Yes. it is, is the policy i i is, is would you need to set this up as, as it being a long term I E ho how quickly would you expect that kind of process to work through? Well it takes, I mean if to start off with you've gotta get rich peasants to save some surplus and then see he's not gonna invest every single surplus in one year cos the harvest next year might be no good so you've got the sort of vagaries of the Chinese weather situation so you've obviously gotta sort of stock up Yeah. and erm I imagine Yes. so erm investing into industry which I don't know much about, and I, I am suspicious that invest into industry anyway erm so it's gonna have, to work it'll have to be quite a long term policy, well I imagine it wouldn't be a short-term policy . So in,rational grounds y y you would be arguing that, that if we're going to set this policy up we're going to have to accept that i it's going, it is going to be a long term policy. Yeah. And, and therefore you, you recognizing that, you would be seeking to make statements about erm sort of giving reassurances to the rich peasant that this is Yeah. that this is, is not something that's going to change. But in terms of industrialization itself I would, I would've thought it would take Yeah. But they didn't give a didn't issue any documents of reassurance to the rich Mm. Mm. Wh what, why how, how is this industrialization programme then working in terms of eventual collectivization? What w i is there a relation between industrialization and collectivization? Not directly but you can make one in that how that once everybody gets, once you have the resources to raise everybody up to a certain sort of acceptable standard of living, then you can redistribute those resources and you are, you are,y you'll be able to eliminate poverty Right, yes. well not totally but Right that, that bit of it is fine. But is, is collectivization just the reorganization of land? Or does collectivization imply mechanization? Mm. Yeah. I think it implies mechanization and more control as well of the labour force Yes. cos surely the quickest way to industrialize would be directives funds Yes, that, that bit of it is fine but surely if collectivization implies that you mechanize as well, you need industrialization in order to be able to mechanize. So that you can have the resources to pay for it all. Well er er er the er the A the resources to pay for it, B er the capacity to create mechanization. So you need a rich peasant economy to finance industrialization to provide the mechanization to enable you to go on to collectivization. Now that's going to be quite a long term process isn't it? So if, if one is accepting that, that strategy you would expect there to be statements along the lines of er ye yes this is going to be a long term process, etcetera. It's a long term process in order to achieve their means so I mean Yes. in the it's a short-term objective would you say? Er er but, but Isn't it? th th th as you said the, the means to the end has changed Yes. and the end is lo is now further off Further off. Mm. What I can't reconcile is what was the rich peasant . I mean look at the chain of events which is bullshit. The rich peasant I'm gonna save some money right, I'm gotta finance industry so we mechanize so you collectivize and take it all of me . Stuff that. So, so as a rich peasant you've got doubts about this? Yes. So I've got to reassure you? But I mean if, if you know what the plan is, yeah. But I've got to reassure you? Certainly. Er er er my reassurance has got to be look this is a long way off. But would the peasants trust the Communist Party? I mean even if you did provide reassurances, just because the peasants were well aware of the fact that hardl although they'd been given lands and their had been er the lan you know the previous been destroyed, the Communist Party could take back their land tomorrow if they wanted to. So whatever reassurance the Party gives, what matters more is whether the peasants actually genuinely erm trusted the Communist Party and had W w w er what alternative has the rich peasant got? Okay so he doesn't trust them But if he doesn't trust them then they're not then the Communist Party isn't gonna be able to fulfil their expectations of trying to change the peasants' mentality to increase production. But isn't it in the, the rich peasant's interests to increase his production? Well not if he taxed. You can just say I'm gonna take this off you Yes, you could do that, so, so y you go for erm a very high rate of taxation or you go for a lower rate of taxation which is Yeah. will encourage income increases etcetera. But I mean th th the rich peasant hasn't got much to lose has he? I mean But then he may not invest it, he may just consume. He may, he might just consume. Right. Th th th there is that danger money under the er might keep it under the floorboards. Yes. Right, yeah. Was there some sort of erm financial institution created like a national bank or anything like that? Er the banking sector is nationalized, yes. And, and a bank is set up. But w but we, we you were saying were there these , yes Mm. I think there were. Mm. Erm the being nineteen fifty er preserving, this is a quote,preserving a rich peasant economy is of course not a temporary but a long term policy. Only when the conditions mature for the wide use of mechanical farming for the organization of collective farms and for the socialist reform of rural areas er can the need for a rich peasant economy cease and this will take a somewhat lengthy time to achieve . So the Depends on Right. And er would you be reass reassured by that? Mm. Yes and no that, you know, okay so alright my perhaps it won't change but end of the day invest into industry and gonna lose some of your land. Right. But what, what more can the Party do to reassure? I it is saying look we're not gonna take any of your industrial commercial properties, those are, those,tho those are safe. But we're saying we are, we are encouraging the rich peasant, I mean we want you to settle down and become rich and, although we have this ultimate aim of socialization, collectivization, we've got to industrialize first and that, that is a long time off. compensate. Perhaps. Well I'm not saying I'm not gonna compensate. I don't know, I mean if I was a rich peasant I would be Yes. Especially with the past experience as well. Yes. Mm. Yes. Yes. Right. Well you can't create stability, the Communist Party can't sort of I mean cos that's what, sort of hindering long term investments and that how peasants don't feel that how that things are secure, they and it's difficult to see what the Communist Party could've done Yes. Th th th if y if you're looking at this from the Communist Party perspective, I, I think one i i i i it seems a reasonably sensible s s strategic choice t go for the kind of programme because the alternative would be collectivization. The only experience of collectivization there'd been was the Soviet one and they seemed to have known at least something about the Soviet , they knew it involved a lot of force they knew that if you were going to collect you were going to collectivize you needed the mechaniz well they thought that you needed the mechanization first and they knew that they d A they didn't have the capacity for that mechanization they didn't want to use force I mean i it would,i it would have been very dangerous, wouldn't it, to go back to the countryside collectivization . I mean there, there would have been presumably enormous opposition to that and in the process output would have almost certainly fallen an an and er there were no resources for mechanization so collectivization as a short-term option is really out. But isn't then the only option to go for this longer term one creation of a rich peasant economy? Er in order to do that I've got to give you various reassurances. Mhm. And even then you're a bit dubious and then you say well I'm gonna wait and see about this. So I, I, I mean I, I Well that's where the propaganda comes in isn't it? I think Yeah. But the kinds of things saying here are, are really very favourable towards a rich peasant economy ? Erm I can't remember. Erm it's new in about May nineteen fifty. The Communist Party did though, through those taxation policies and that how that initially it was quite progressive, the taxation Yes. when the need, when they depended upon the peasants' support and then Right. in between nineteen fifty one fifty two, once their position was more secure they could afford to actually favour the rich peasants more Right. low, by erm raising the sort of base rate from three percent to six percent and lowering the top Right. rate so that actually showed Yes. their commitment towards it. Right. Right s s so, so part of what we, we, we will er be looking for is a kind of policy which would seem to favour the rich peasant, would seem to reassure the rich peasant, that, that's You need some direct action. That's why I mean like Right right. Communist Party just to say things people aren't really going to erm change Right. their attitudes, but if Right. they actually do something positive Right. Yeah. then that might make a difference. Yes. So if this is our strategy, we've clearly got to favour the rich peasant. Th th that we er we, we are moving a long way away from this egalitarian position, we've abandoned that and we've said right we, we are if we're going to industrialize the way has got to be through the promotion of a rich peasant economy. So in a sense you are, you are in a sense almost promoting ine sort of inequalities within the countryside. And there's an economic rationale for that. Economic rationale in that how they're the most productive and the most efficient, mm. They are the most productive section. Yes. But you see the thing is that how, what complicates all this is that at the same time the Communist Party is trying to achieve greater equality and how that this isn't their, their sole objective. So that's why their policies might seem a little bit wishy-washy in that how that if they were going straight for a rich peasant economy then perhaps you would have expected a more spectacular economic growth, but there wasn't and perhaps this was because they didn't actually go positively just for a rich peasant economy, they were trying to achieve a greater degree of erm egalitarianism in the countryside at the same time. How were they doing that? Well just through, I mean like land ref land reform in itself isn't erm efficient. No it's more political than that because association you're still giving a landlord a bit of land which means Right. And they couldn't've well for example with taxation, they could've erm not taxed the rich peasants at all and then just put all their erm their sort of focus upon the poor peasants and got their income through them and also with land, they could've just not given any land to poor peasants who were inefficient and given it all to the rich peasants and really gone for a capitalist state. What, would you say that would've helped the growth of the economy even more? So in some way they were making economy by not doing that? Mm. Yeah. Yes. There is erm the promotion of the rich peasant economy is, doesn't, er you're saying i it's not, it is an aim Mhm. it is not the only aim Yeah. that at the same time you're actually trying to assume a policy of equality? Greater equality. Greater equality. Right. Now on the face of it those two seem, they're gonna conflict aren't they? I just have one qualification in that how that their main aim is erm to erm promote a rich peasant economy, that is their Right. most fundamental aim Right. because they see that in the long term benefiting, leading to greater equality. Right. So erm Er because er but only because that will oh, no i i er does, does the development of a rich peasant economy itself promote equality? No it doesn't, but it gives them the means to promote it. Ah. So, so y y y you're sort of inequality in order to get equality? That if, if you promote the rich peasant economy you can industrialize, you can then collectivize and it's collectivization Yes. which ultimately is going to provide your equalization. So they don't see it as two conflicting aims, they see er the two sort of complementing one another. Bu bu but inequality is the means to equality? And you, er that implies you're prepared to see inequalities widening in the short, perhaps even the medium term. And, because a as the rich peasant economy gets going obviously there are going to be some rich getting richer and there are gonna be some poor getting poorer. But that's fine as long as the Communist Party can control this sort of growth, and that's why they introduced the mutual aid teams to sort of counter the Ah right, yes. er the polarization of society. I mean it seems a bit ironic in that how that what the Communist Party had been striving to eliminate for the past twenty years, they're now going back to recreating differences in society, but the most fundamental change is that how feudalism has gone. Right. You have a different kind of Yes. exploitation. So you, yes we, we've got the end of feudalism, and then we, we've got this promotion of the rich peasant economy, the promotion of inequalities but at the same time you might need to come in to protect the ri the poor at the bottom because you don't want those inequalities to get too great. Mhm. In fact wh wh wh what you want is the promotion of a rich peasant economy without equality, inequalities emerging. You can't can you? Which is going to be very difficult. Right. So there are, there are problems with this sort of policy in terms of, of the, like the economic logic of it is that yes you go for a rich peasant economy which creates inequalities which will provide you with industrialization, which will then enable you to get back to inequalities but, in term back to equality the problem is that you've actually got inequalities being promoted in, in the meantime which you have, you might want to do something about. So we might expect there to be a, a set of policies coming in to, to ease the creation of that inequality. Okay. Erm is,i i i is this okay? C c before we, we move on,c can I just ask if we c could look at this in a different way? Er where, where has class conflict gone in all of this? of feudalism Yeah. and trying to get to socialism but it's, it's the government who are doing the work. Surely there should be no more class conflict it should be all class er cooperation,working together. But, but there, there, yes but there are still classes. Yes but then they're still to erm to against each other. How do you make progress through socialism other than through class conflict? We've already had the class conflict though haven't we? Yes. You've got rid of the landlords who have been mainly exploiters and so But how do you make further progress without conflict? Er Create a proletariat? What? Create a proletariat? Mhm. God. Starting again then. I don't understand. Well n n start, of course you're starting again because the processes of recreating a class struggle is the same in each phase. You're trying to do the same thing but whereas in feudal exploitation Ah. it's, even though you want to er if Ah yeah. you've got a real true capitalist economy and industrialization the proletariat is gonna be the vanguard of the revolution. Ah. But I can't see them setting up a situation where they're gonna exploit their own workers No they're not gonna exploit their own workers but surely the, the, the whole idea of the build up towards land reform is that you are making, I mean in a Marxist sense it's the only way in which you can do it is, is you make progress through conflict. I mean we, we clearly do not have a socialist society even at the end of land reform as we, as we've seen in a sense we've created a, a private enterprise system which is based on equalities within capitalism. But are inequalities needed for class conflict, for progress? What would've happened if absolute egalitarianism had been pursued and absolute egalitarianism had worked and there was enough land for everybody to come up to a middle peasant status and you'd created an absolutely e equal society? Everyone would be happy. I think it would be cool. Right. I could've run with that. That would be okay would it? Yeah I think No because what's stopping it from going on to any erm what's stopping it from becoming capitalist and It is capitalist, and everybody will, would've been given their own land. Everybody would have enough land to reach subsistence level, everybody would be a capitalist I think would own the means of production there would be subsistence. er the communists wouldn't be very happy about that the ownership of production is this is, this is the problem. Yes. So they want collective ownership. So how are you gonna get out of that? if you've already got successful economy ? Yes. Well there's no out then. So you'd be stuck? Yeah, there's no, there's nowhere to go. Cos well you know why would, why would do that? Right. And where, where would be the, the forces from within the peasantry be coming from to, to change that? Right and there's no expl there's no exploitation, there's no classes, there's no conflict, no way forward. Don't know. Where would you go? Where would you go? Wh what, how can you progress more than, than you'd be equal, there'd be enough to eat? But that I mean what's what's a sort of better thing to happen than that? But that is not socialist. It isn't communism. What? It's not socialist. But, you know, what, what would be, what would be a rural socialist erm Well, see it's er er er er w is it satisfactory to have a rural economy which is subsistence? I mean okay all of you as, as middle, middle peasants were reaching subsistence level how is that gonna help industrialization? How, how is industrialization gonna help us? I it won't i but it won't, it won't impinge on you at all. I mean i i i if you were gonna sit there saying I'm okay, I'm, I can reach a reasonably comfortable business level, this is great, this is what I've always wanted to do Mm. y y y you've got no surplus so you can't save, you can't invest, you're not gonna buy any consumer goods. Erm productivity isn't gonna rise very much. You're stuck. You'd need to, that's why they nee er the Communist Party was going for progress in ord so that the peasants would see that socialism was a good sort of goal isn't it? But social er er er pr precisely o o on, on Dave's point that socialism would not be a goal for a middle peasant economy because you would be quite happy where you were. So you wouldn't have any idea of wanting to improve your lot further? Well would, would you? I think that answer, I mean some people would be totally happy to yeah, fine but I'm sure there'll be other people who, you know, I want some more er Yes. But there would be i i in terms of a communist strategy, in terms of an ideology there would be nothing within the countryside which would be promoting that movement towards socialism, that, that change through class conflict would there? I mean if, if, if you create a society in which you have only one class and it is a, an owner-occupation, in a sense, small scale subsistence capitalist class, everybody is roughly the same within that there is no form of momentum is there? Well I'm not entirely sure. I mean you, you could argue that inequalities give,pr provide momentum because then there's er introduce, introduce conflicts Yes but of necessity. but is, is it, is it therefore true that a system which does introduce conflicts therefore can progress? I mean I'm, I'm not sure it is. It can't progress through socialism? Through democracy. Or out of er in terms of production can't progress. In a Marxist context it, it cannot because the only way in which you can make progress is through co class conflict. Yeah. But you might be able to do it some other way. Mm Sorry? The Communist Party You call them a communist party? But you see China was different compared to erm places like Russia and wherever and so you can't just strictly sort of use the Marxist model and apply it to China and what the Com Well you should be able to. Chinese Communist Party was doing, well why should you? Yeah so that's the classic claim of Marx's model innit? It's like the theory of history. You should be able to Well maybe the Communist Party realized that it wouldn't work. Why are they a communist party then? I mean But is, is, is is it possible that it is actually very useful to have classes, to, to have inequalities? I E Well yeah I there, there, there is, I'm not saying that this and er and I do see what you're saying, yeah. I E In what way? In the political sense in that how , yeah. Yes politically. I i in terms of mobilization, in terms of, of revolutionary struggle, in terms of revolutionary progress. Er it, it does seem to me it would've been an enormous problem for the Chinese Communist Party had absolute egalitarianism worked. It would have left them with, with no mechanism to go forward. They actually had a vested interest in having inequality within the coun er er because it, it retained classes and therefore potential class conflict within the countryside and therefore it offered a way forward to socialism. But isn't it sort of very much an view, you know this that this is the theory for justification for the, their policy or was it theoretical erm ? Er production. Yes. Erm well e e I, I quite agree. Absolutely. Erm but one, one one, I mean cl clearly the policy which was pursued was one of inequality and there was a rich peasant economy and either you say well yes there is, there is an economic imperative for that and that's the explanation or you say well there might have been a political factor involved in this that there was a recognition that progress was going to come through class conflict and therefore if you are actually promoting the kind of you might realize it was happening and you might be more prepared to Mm. Because you would be saying well if we have classes this provides us with a way forward for the future in a way that if we have absolute egalitarianism that, how would we make progress through to socialism? But why did they go for absolute egalitarianism in the first place then? Was it just so that they could, for political means again to get peasant support? Erm, yes. Yes if, if you go back forty six forty eight that was it. So you're saying that they were driven more by there political desire for power than by their ideology because had absolute egalitarianism worked then they should have been satisfied with that because then they were fulfilling their ideology. Yes. But it obviously hasn't worked. No but you were saying before that had it worked it would've given them a problem. The way I It would've done. I see it is that had it worked it would have fulfilled their ideology. It would have fulfilled their ideological aims. Why is that? W w w cos, cos one aim is equality, the other aim is socialism. Mm. But don't you get equality through socialism? Isn't that the aim? Yes. Rather than equality Absolutely, yes. And they're also looking for progress too, they want to increase Right. everybody's S s so we're looking for, in a sense, for three things, one is is er paving the way for industrialization, one is equality, one is the ideological movement to socialism and somehow you've got to allow for all of those three. And I think in a way absolute equality would've provided a problem in terms of both paving the way for industrialization because you would have created a subsistence economy and that would not have helped anybody. Secondly I think it would actually have created problems in terms of ideology. This whole idea of a subsistence economy is something I'm not really, I'm not really sure about it because erm what, what would exactly, you're saying that if everybody was the same then erm then you're somehow necessarily going to be producing at a subsistence level so erm so er and so it's, so if you can only extract surplus by effectively taking it off something given to others. Yes. So you're virtually condemning some people to operate below subsistence Yes. in order to allow other people to extract a surplus which you then give Yes. Yes. Right. So why, why, why can't you just erm why can't they just take a bit off everybody in that case and, and inflict the same degree ? Cos you're inflicting, you're inflicting or, or people at the very bottom of the scale, you're forced to operate below a level of subsistence because inequalities. Yes. So why don't you just run a middle peasant economy but take what you need from everybody else? But surely state intervention should have been the best way of achieving both goals? But how could the, the s By taxing people. how, how would the state have the means to intervene? Just go give us your taxes, build a few factories. Where are they gonna get these, how can they impose taxes unless there's some kind of a healthy economy? You know an economy that's Well I mean collapsing and is in such a state. there is, no, cos there's a surplus right? But there's There will, I mean but, but would there? I mean is, Yes but how great is this surplus? Well look there's a finite amount of resource in the economy. You've got some rich people, you've got some poor people. Yeah right. Right? Now there's gonna be a surplus no matter who you give it to, no matter where, I mean Why? Why? That surplus probably has Because those people on subsistence level are surviving right, and if they're surviving Yeah. it means that they're there and that if you take something away from the wealthy peasants and equalize Yeah. amongst your old'uns, whatever but it is gonna be But isn't there a, a different expenditure pattern between the rich and the poor? That Yeah yeah but erm what I'm saying is you can tax them take that surplus, cream it off, create an equal society direct state intervention invest it in factories, whatever. Right. I don't think it'll really help, I mean No. But, but i i i i if you went yes I mean er in a sense that th there are one possibility is to redistribute the land, and do that equally, but if, if there, there was not enough land to bring everybody up to subsistence level er I mean some were, the, the argument is there wasn't enough land to bring everybody up to a landlord's subsistence level. Or at best everybody could just come up to but nobody would be creating re er a surplus, nobody would have the resources to invest to enable them to come above subsistence Yes. and if you then taxed you would, you would pushing everybody down below. Right. And tha that is no way then that is no way forward. What I'm Yeah. Yeah but as far as I can see there either is a surplus or there isn't, you know, that it shouldn't depend on where you organize the a aggregate. Why not? If y the way, if you Because any sur any surplus you're extracting from rich peasants is an artificial one because it's only based on, you know, basically imposed suffering of poor peasants. You're not allowing Bu but, but the rich because they have more resources are more highly productive. So they have a higher income. Yes. Which you can then tax. And you will be able to,y y you, your tax revenue will rise because you've got a group that is rich. And then but also with the poor peasants I mean you, you've given them a, enough land so that they, they still can't meet subsistence, given them some land but not enough, but you know because they're resourceful and they've got other things that they, they don't need to have enough land to give subsistence, they'd rather go and do something else and make it up. So that therefore in, I mean it's like a form they just they just get by. Yeah but I, but I cos I can see the arguments but then I mean I'm just not, I'm not entirely sure whether i i it couldn't work, that it couldn't work being a middle peasant economy and that these erm these inequalities would er sort of Y y y you could certainly extract a sur er extract a surplus for the government Yeah. which the government would then have spent on the industrial sector so agriculture would not have moved forward. And no middle peasant would have then had the investment resources to improve his own I E the, the agricultural sector would, would not be left with enough resources to improve. And Why do say that? I mean why, er with this surplus they've gathered, I mean what you're saying is that the rich peasant economy effectively are better investors Yes. they're more productive Yes. but that needn't be the case. I mean if the government is er taxing and pr channelled that money properly then it should be able to do the job of private investors so surely the arguments hinge upon the fact that perhaps the government is likely to be inefficient, corrupt, bureaucratic, whatever. Possibly but i i if, if you say it is a,i it's an honest government and er er the tax collection is, is straightforward and honest, the government is then deciding what it does with that tax revenue. I, I E you, you're saying in effect that the government is taking all of the surplus from the, from agriculture? Yeah. What little surplus, what little Yeah that's what I'm sa surplus there is, and then it redistributes that surplus and given that the, the, the priority is industrialization most if not all of that surplus is going to go to the industrial sector. There will be no resources for the agricultural sector and agriculture probably will not be able to support the industrialization process. Whereas if you go for a degree of inequality within the countryside, A you will have, you might get the same, same tax yield because you, you have a higher rate of tax on the rich and their revenue's going up so that tax revenue will increase Mhm. and you've got a group, the rich within the agricultural sector who are going to invest and they are more likely to invest in agriculture. You have the problem of how much to tax because on the one hand you're trying to promote this rich peasant economy and not erm tax them too heavily because you don't want to, them to not invest with Yes. and then you also need to have a surplus so that you can erm pay for industrialization, and you can't tax, tax the poor too much to fit into your ideology so at the end of the day, you know, well it's a matter of just balancing all these factors Exactly. Exactly. to get a compromise. Right. So the creation of a rich er along these lines of the creation of a rich peasant economy is a necessity as the Communist Party see it in terms of paving the way for industrialization. It is a better strategy to create resources for industrialization to go for a rich peasant economy than to go for a middle peasant economy. What I'm also saying is that, that in terms of sort of the context of ideology that, you know, from a Marxist perspective it is actually useful still to have rich and poor peasants because potentially you've got classes, you've got class conflict and you've got a means of making further progress towards socialism. And the two come together. Wh what you're also saying is, is right though, that within that the danger is that inequalities get too great and you would also need a set of policies which would stop that inequality. So you're trying to promote it, but you're trying to limit it. And what, well how do you do that, I mean if Right. that is totally inconsistent, if you're trying to create class struggle Right. then you're not gonna stop it, I mean if there's class struggle no one can stop it. Yes. Yes. That, that's gonna be a problem. that political argument seems, I mean you can't win in this game can you? If you've got inequalities and everything then you say ah yes, it's all very good, we need this, the Marxist class struggle, I mean that just seems like a ridiculous argument to me. But w was it, was it the size of China that made this necessary? You know the sort of uncontrollable nature of, of most of it that, that meant they had to get on with it. I'm not sure size is, is the reason. I still don't see why, why you're saying the government couldn't use their erm policies, fiscal policies with erm and then actually take an active part in the economy. Why couldn't they create, improve the agricultural sector by I'm not saying, they, they could have done. Right, but they didn't. Cos the various things you've been saying about the rich peasant economy, I mean Because, but you don't you, you well if you've got a rich peasant economy you don't need to because you're saying the rich peasant Yeah. can do it themselves. But, but it's highly, I mean I don't, it doesn't follow to me that that in any way is compliant with Marxist ideology because surely you want to get to your socialist state Right. Mm. as quickly as possible. Yes. So if you could create equality this er government intervention policy, you'd've achieved your goal. Erm right. And I don't see see why Yes, yes. they couldn't've invested in, in agriculture Sh sh all this in the private sector would've sure,th th th that is your other option is, is that you go for a m a much more equal policy and the, the government takes money in taxation and puts it back into the, the agricultural sector. Right. I think the reason they probably did this because it's, it's, it was politically harder to do that, they would've had to taken a lot more responsibility. Yeah th that was, that was the that was my point about the size of the country, and I think Oh right. Yes. that so,th that sort of policy would be very, would've been difficult you'd have to have a huge sort of bureaucratic structure Yes. to invest in . Right. So, so sort of technically, politically that would have been quite difficult to do because of the manpower involved etcetera Yeah. etcetera etcetera, yes. Whereas creating a rich peasant economy will work immediately cos that's what a significant number of people in, in the countryside will actually go along with and want. Mm. Because it is, it is en it is encouraging people to become rich and basically people want to become rich. But it seems to me like it's passing the buck a bit in the way they're just sort of taking responsibility Yes. Yes. and saying well you know that if we, if the sort of rich peasants were Mm. Yeah. gonna be pretty safe, it's gonna be pretty stable, we don't have to get our f hands dirty erm you know future cos if it doesn't work you can always economic about Taiwan and there's a great deal of irony in this because you know here you are in the nineteen fifties in China rich peasant economy which is accepting and preserving inequalities Yeah. and yet you go to Taiwan and there's some sort of,land reform which ends up in, in a very equal distribution Well exactly what's happening. A and erm and I think it is being conducted by the government which has just left China Yeah, that's right. Yes. Right. This,bu but isn't that only because of what they learnt from Oh absolutely yes. their experience of China? But if erm, if they have learned that why, you know, why didn't the communists? Perhaps they So which is always are you saying that they actually deliberately were trying to Right. Erm right. Zoe would you like to, to carry on from wherever you want see, see what you have. Alright. What then were the economic effects of land reform and the preservation of the rich peasant economy and how successful was it in raising productivity? Land reform had profound impact on the distribution of rural wealth and income and through this on both the motivation and complicity of the rural population to invest, improve farming techniques and to increase production. The degree of the immediate impact of land reform however is a matter of debate. The spef specific impact of land reform is extremely difficult to evaluate. Land reform does not necessarily lead to an immediate rise in output, neither does it increase a physical supply of land, nor does it significantly alter the ratio of peasants for the amount of land available. Furthermore the exact economic impact of land distribution is difficult to identify in test because output is the function of many other factors besides land distribution per se. The scope of the economic analysis of the immediate impact of the land reform period is further limited by lack of statistics. Official economic data released prior to nineteen fifty two were confusing due to lack of standardization, contents and coverage of data. According to one, data especially on output for the immediate post land reform period were later corrected and adjusted by officials causing one to question its credibility. In addition statistical data from the pre land reform period is patchy. Most historians use Buck's land survey data and statistics erm work by the for the nineteen thirties to draw comparisons with official data which was collected for tax purposes from nineteen fifty two onwards but there's very little data from the period of land reform itself. In view of these factors my discussion can be confined to three inter-related aspects of the economic impact of land reform. Since the agrarian reform swept away the landlord tenant relationship it altered the claims to the output from land. These effects will be explored first. As a consequence of the abolition of the landlord tenant structure, reform to the tax structure was necessary. The second aspect considered here will be how the C C P structured their tax system as a means of both investment in industry and as an incentive to agricultural productivity. Finally an assessment will be made as to the effect of redistribution of land reform to agricultural productivity. So what was the overall effect of rent transfer, of agricultural output as a result of the abolition of rent landlords?estimates that the rental land was thirty three percent of the total land area in ninetee in nineteen thirty and about thirteen percent of the total value of agricultural output was transferred amongst households as rent before land reform. Land reform primarily meant the diversion of rent payments. In addition to the redistribution of the actual rent payments the abolition of landlords meant the abolition of other charges, local taxes and surta cha surtaxes, rent deposits and interest payments to landlords. All of these further contributed to the post land reform potential o of the law set to maintain and increase its income, or for the Communist Party to tax. I'll now consider how much the peasants actually benefited from these gains and how much they paid in tax after land reform. Prior to land reform most agricultural taxes were levied to the land itself, assessment per unit of land being graduated according to the quality of land proportional to output. Land taxes were paid to the ? and provisional governments. Tax evasion and tax was widespread. maintains that the actual sums collected by these agents were sometimes as much as ten times what the government received. She explains that there were generally two stages to changes in the tax system, the tax system initiated by the Communist Party. There was expansion of the tax based levied on production per household assessed on the basis of nominal annual y yield. This was the harvest that could be reasonably be expected in an average year. The levy was set by cadres based in . Tax rates were applicable to the total household income derived from agricultural production divided by the number of members in the household who depended primarily on agricultural production. Commercial income was tax exempt. During this first stage tax rates were steeply progressive from three percent on a hundred and fifty per capita per annum to forty two percent. The C C P's aim was to gain peasant support for land reform and to emphasise class divisions. Once land reform was under way, the peasant support of the C C P regime was more secure, the C C P implemented a second stage of its tax programme in the newly liberated areas. From nineteen fifty one to fifty two it re-graduated the progressive tax rates, raising the bottom rate from six percent in the same threshold of a hundred and fifty per capita per annum, and lowering the top rate to twenty five percent. The main incentives to agricultural production embodied in the tax system First production over and above the nominal family unit was free of tax. Following from this there was thus an incentive for peasants to invest in large scale improvements without fear of tax on rises in productivity because the N A Y was fixed for at least three years. Further, because the N A Y was based on grain as a standard, this encouraged a switch to cash crops which were of a higher value relative to grain. The tax system extensively encouraged all peasant owners to settle down and get rich because the tax rate remained fixed on grain output from each household but the adjustment of the tax rate was more advantageous to the rich peasant than the poor, especially in view of the fact that the rich peasant still owned proportionately more land than the poor peasant. According to it did not seem to make much difference to tax on income differentials, rich peasants were still about two and a half times better off than poor peasants. It appeared however that the Chinese Communist Party was rational in its tax policy, taxation was crucial to the C C P to control inflation and the supply of grain to the People's Liberation Army and the population as a whole. estimates that in nineteen fifty the tax amounted to nearly forty two percent of the national budget receipt which was clearly a significant contribution. Turning to the economic impact of land reform on productivity Can I just, can I just stop you there for a minute. To ju and just take taxation bit of it. Do you understand what Zoe is, is talking about? Do, do you understand what the tax system is? No. No. Right. Actually you're okay, it was extremely clear but it, it's a, I think it's a complicated issue. Mm. Is, is what you're saying that, that the tax was on a, a kind of expected yield that cadres would, would, would go into a village and they would say look erm that is the normal yield for that bit of land. On, on, on past experience that's roughly what the yield has been, on an average year you would expect to get that. And, and we are going to base our taxes on that normal yield. if the yield is above that, we're gonna keep the tax base the same, so i if, if your yield goes up, if you work harder, if you're more productive you, you're going to be much better off. We, we will not raise the taxes because your increment's gone up. So, so there's that, there's that kind of incentive behind it and, and, and, and that normal yield is, is gonna operate for three years, if there are improvements we're still gonna keep that the normal yield tax based exactly the same. So there are significant incentives to improve the land. So what happens after three years, the er the yields are sort of therefore reviewed and the reassessed? Yes. How would they do that? So basically what you, you, what you would be likely to do is rip o rip off the system completely for two years at a time Yes, but then er you face the possibility that er because your, your, if you like, your normal yield has risen Yeah, that's it. you will move into a different sort of tax bracket. it's a strange incentives aren't there? It's like in the first year the first year of the three year period you've got an incentive, Yes. the second year you increase about as much but the third year you're gonna bring it right down use hardly anything at all. Yeah but the point is did they actually have to claim how much, I mean er you know they produced, cos all we're saying here is they're just taking a a nominal amount which they stipulate at the beginning of a three year period, and they're just gonna take that. I mean they're not gonna have any information of how much you've produced over and above your tax. So how do they follow But er but at the same time I mean how do they go about reclassifying Ah. That's, that's going to be a problem but that's, that's three years off. And presumably No but by that time you've got the personnel and you've Oh I see. you've got much more information and, and, and you would But er what information? I don't see Well presumably would go back in the village and if you asked other villagers look how much has X grown on that bit of land they will tell you. Tax erm I can't remember where it was that, I think it might have been one of you saying that how that a peasant of subsistence level erm would still have to pay eighteen percent of its income Right. in taxation but that still the peasant was, even though this might seem like quite a bit, the peasant was still in a better position than he had been previous because rents were at least thirty percent. Yes. Yes. So it's a matter of ho I mean er greater equality was achieved, but they could've erm I mean a hundred and fifty was a very low threshold okay let's just work around that. What, what you're saying is that I mean broadly this is, is quite an incentive based system, at least on the face of it Mm. er in, in that you, you are, you, you're sort of fixing your taxes and then you're allowing, anybody who increases their output will keep, will benefit from that. So, so basically it's an incentive system for, to increase production. And it, it's clear that, that production was higher than, than normal expectation so it seems to have had a positive effect in terms of. And you're also saying that, that there is some equalization going on because erm the tax rate erm and th th th the top tax rate, at least to begin with, is forty two percent, the bottom tax rate is only three percent. So there's, there's an equalization going on. But what you're then saying is that the taxes start at a very low threshold I E you, you, you start to pay tax at a hundred and fifty Cantonese per person. about eight hundred for subsistence. Exactly. So you are taxing peasants at well below subsistence level. Now either, either we have,ei either you accept that and y y you're saying n not only in terms of land reform is the Communist Party prepared to see poor peasants being allocated less than subsistence land but even when they are allocated land they're being taxed on their income even though it's well below subsistence. Now ei either one sort of accepts that view Would that be because the Communist Party didn't want the rich peasant to think they'd be s they were being singled out? That how that their policies were being applied to the whole society. Would that be Erm the justification for it? There's there was an element of that, yes, that Why should they be concerned about the rich peasants? Because they're promoting the rich peasant economy in the short run. Yeah but promoting the economy doesn't necessarily mean It does if we wanna keep them happy. You have to keep them happy in order to I mean inconsistent with what we were saying about What? the objective of politically going for a class struggle yes, sure. Well, they're not gonna have any incentive to invest unless they know their interests are gonna be protected. You know Invest in what? Sorry? In industry? Yeah. Or whatever. I in increasing the surplus, agricultural surplus. But if, if, if that beginning, you know,i if you're going to go for a rich peasant economy, you've gotta convince them that it's, it's their advantage and it's gonna last. There's a sort of, I mean, it is a very favourable tax system in, in relation to the rich. Okay there might be in all sorts of ways, in terms of equality, in terms of socialism, it's, it's all a bit dubious erm but the other reason for taxing down is that, let's face it, the majority of peasants as we, as we saw last week are still poor and if the Communist Party is wanting to maximize its revenue, if it was gonna say okay we're not gonna tax anybody at under six or eight hundred erm you, you're gonna take out er half the population and you would have to get that income by taxing the rich even harder and that would be a disincentive. reasonable system wouldn't it? But it would have been a disincentive on the rich. Erm what proportion of the population was living at subsistence level roughly? Cos, as an idea. Erm well er er the figures we looked at , well i i i it, this is the problem it depends how you define your subsistence level. Now It varies from village to village doesn't it? It's gonna vary from village but it's to an extent although the amount of grain you needed, the amount Yeah. of grain erm But if we say it's around eight hundred Now, yes I mean i i in, in terms of two thousand calories a day it, it s it seems to be six hundred and fifty, seven hundred calories, er seven hundred , right, now th th there are those who argue the hundred and fifty is starvation level. I E it, it, it's it's about a quarter so you, you're on five, six hundred calories a day. So they wouldn't be able to pay the tax would th they wouldn't. Well i i it implies that the Communist Party is actually taxing p taxing poor peasants at three percent of their income even though they are at starvation level. But would they, wouldn't they just in practice overlook it? No. Erm I, I, there were provisions that where er more than ten percent of the population for any area was at the level you would be able to tax at a higher rate. Why, why? What! Your revenue I guess, that, that you need the revenue. Were there, were there people starving?starving. Well I ca what I can't quite understand is, is that why anybody should have come through land reform and still only have that level of income. Erm it may be that the people who were right down at the bottom like that were people who were doing other things as well and were say blacksmiths or whatever Mm. a and, and that I think would not be taken into account, so we're just looking at agricultural income Oh I see yeah. and these people were not depending on agriculture alone. If they are people depending on agriculture along i i it seems an extraordinarily harsh Well they'd be forced out wouldn't they? They would be forced out yes. and work in the factories of the, the rich peasants. The factories of the I think. Well you know what I mean, workshops or whatever. Yes. Yes. Erm but it might mean that in fact we do need to reconsider what we mean by subsistence income. I E bare subsistence might have been three hundred, four hundred . Now if, if one is arguing that then the, the number of peasants who are really below a very basic subsistence level as a result of land reform is, is much lower. Mm. I mean if, if your cut-off point is six or eight hundred say six or eight hundred yo you're gonna, you know, you're into a very large section of the population, if you will come to four hundred and fifty you are into a much, much smaller proportion. But you, you're right that if we stick to somewhere between six hundred and seven hundred as, as a erm even a basic kind of subsistence I E you've just got enough in just, you, you're just not using enough food to get yourself up to two hundred, two thousand calories a day at that rate you were still being taxed on,a at a rate of almost twenty percent of your, of your income. Which meant that net of tax you would,y your, your yield would have to be about eight hundred in order to, net of tax, give you just under seven hundred. How could they before pay rents then? Because that was even more. Right Yes. just don't, you can't reconcile it. So had they put too high a sort of level for subsistence? I mean what did peasants expect to live on, what were their expectations? That's what really matters. I mean this is I er er there, there is a, a fundamental problem here I think th that i if you do the calculations in terms of how many calories per amount of grain it does seem that, that for what we regard as being an adequate diet and then again it's a diet which is not being supplemented by meat okay there will be some vegetables but basically it's grain, you, you do need somewhere between six and seven hundred . And it is clear that there were, that a very significant proportion were not reaching that level and it's being taxed. But they are still surviving and they were surviving and still paying rent on land before nineteen forty nine. But were they? Because quite a lot of the peasants didn't Right. wa wasn't it when, when we were studying about landlord tenant relationships Yeah. that how that erm landlords in practice had to reduce the level of taxation Yes. have loans and stuff, so it just Right. Yes. prolonged Yes. payments. Th th th there's all of that and there is obviously the, the option to borrow and there is the opportunity to work as, as hired labour or handicrafts etcetera. But the assumption must have been that before nineteen forty nine there was a lot of that going on Mhm. more than seemed to be indicated in the figures that we've got, because Buck's figures for the extent of supplementary income are I know they're significant but they're not enough to the kinds of levels people had been living at. But I, I, I think there is a conflict between what we would regard as being a, an acceptable subsistence level and what it would appear that the peasants could possibly have been achieving. I mean it's, it's difficult to bring those two close enough. It's, it's hard to, I think there is this erm farmland I would imagine a very very hard Yes. that may not have involved, been involved in a cash economy. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Right. But I think we, we, we do have to recognize that, that not only are we looking at a land reform process which is providing a lot of peasants with what subsistence land and the Communist Party was taxing them, they were on that below subsistence income. Now that would not be what one would expect er two months ago if I'd said well look you know that's that's what the revolution's gonna bring about you would've said I don't believe you. The only way you can justify it is by saying it's a means to an end. But it, you could equally say that well Yes. But at the same time the Party could argue that it was attempting to equalize things or at least limit inequalities in the sense that, that, that the tax rates were . What i what is really extraordinary I think is the way as you say that in nineteen fifty fifty one, fifty one fifty two, they actually, actually changed the tax schedules so it goes not from the three percent of the bottom, from six or seven percent of the bottom and only up to twenty five percent. But it could also mean that erm they were getti that it they had been successful in getting taxation from what they'd done since the beginning of cos they felt they could go even further. Yes. It could apply to their original taxation policy Yes. But, but, but, but it's a it's a major concession to the rich. A a at precisely the point where one one would expect them to be in the position to be able to encroach on the rich they are actually this is, this is the promotion of the rich peasant economy. Mm. Could that stem from a problem like sort of Marxism is really a theory developed from the g an industrialized, industrializing country Mm. and you've your idea from that but then China is a completely backward country. Oh I see. But it's not only, it's not only There's, there's, there's, there's there's room for it in, in Marxist theory isn't there? Yeah there is. What about Asiatic methods of production and all that sort of thing Yes. I think they were originally for it, I just think there's it is just so backward Mm. that there haven't been any forces of change for a thousand years. I mean perhaps the forces of change that were normal were not inherent in the Chinese Yes. so that they really had to be brought out. Yes. Or created even. Yes. Absolutely. Yes I mean th th th th the fact that you've got a whole range of problems an an and you, you were bound to come up against those problems if you try and define Marxist in a strict sense, and therefore you, you were always seeking to sort of make . Can we just come back to Mm. Can you just go on with your productivity bit. Okay. What I'll do is I'll just quickly skim Yes. through the stuff. Erm that offic regarding productivity from economic impact of land reform, official statistics claimed that between nineteen forty nine to fifty four gross output value of agriculture increased by fifty eight percent. Erm those are the only sort of figures we have and, but nineteen forty nine seemed to be a bad base state because it was about half so that meant that it exaggerate . Erm that had er most economic histor historians agree that between nineteen fifty two, nineteen fifty fifty two there was a healthy recovery and then a slackening off and that erm another consequence of land reform was to decrease the output marketed by peasants and this was because, as we mentioned earlier, the peasants have a high propensity to consume and lower marketing land was rich peasants erm and that one says that there was a new air reported then in the countryside unleashing unprecedented wave of productive enthusiasm, initiative and creativeness but there was also evidence of instability and uncertainty which hindered erm the advance of erm productiv improving productivity and investment. Erm and that how that but through land reform it meant that how that you had erm credit difficulties and that how that landlords who prev previously provided the credit were no longer there and so that meant that how that erm that exasperated problems of increasing productivity and also there was a severe shortage of farm implements and animals cos they weren't redistributed, there was only the surplus that was taken away from the rich peasants and landlords, it meant that how that the, the rich peasants erm you know, got back er they sort of were a self-perpetuating elite in that how the poor peasants just didn't have the means to improving their production. Erm so the Communist Party, to try to counter this sort of erm advance of the rich peasant economy which they saw was getting a bit too far, tried to encourage the formation of mutual aid teams erm but they were very, there were problems in that in erm the implementation of this because peasants were unwilling to share their tools, they weren't compensated for it. Also peasants joining the mutual aid teams feared that erm it would hinder their opportunities of working in other forms of erm er getting other forms of income and that says that only twelve point six percent of the total farming households in Penang, which was quite a progressive place for mutual aid erm teams, er erm were members of MATs in nineteen fifty two. erm I, in m I in my opinion that the Communist Party aim of increasing productivity wasn't actually achieved and because of all these problems erm could that their policy of favour of erm promoting rich peasant economy didn't significantly contribute to industrialization erm I mean there was a little bit of an economic growth but that it wasn't particularly significant. However the agrarian reforms of nineteen fifty wasn't a complete failure and it did provi er play a vital step in socialist transformation of agriculture. It had got rid of this, the old order and new power relations had been established and so it shouldn't be regarded so much as an economic failure but as a profound political and social reform, which is an important step towards the Party's ultimate aim of communism, and going back to the beginning of my paper that how that they had always seen industrialization as a means to an end and that how that socialism and ultimately communism could only be achieved through stages and so that, although it was an economic failure, it was a sort of a social Yes. success. Fine. S so the, the, the really important outcome of land reform is the political and social changes not the economic changes Yes. and although it is being set up to promote a rich peasant economy in order to pave the way for Chinese industrialization, that has not been particularly successful either in terms of the level of output and therefore the levels or in terms of inequalities in that one of the, one of the worrying things that comes through, that comes through, despite the tax system there are still very substantial inequalities and i is the promotion of mutual aid a means, a perceived means of reducing or containing those inequalities? Yes but in practice it, it didn't really work because the Communist Party didn't really erm sort of make a concrete commitment to promoting them and just encouraged them And n u up until nineteen fifty two? Yes and then afterwards. Right. But what, when they do get going it is, it's clear that the mutual aid process does reduce inequalities Erm in that productivity within mutual aid teams goes up. I, I mean But I mean you see the problem is that how the rich erm rich peasants two different mutual aid teams which meant that how that they didn't ha the resources they were sharing were pretty much the same. But, but their productivity still did rise within the mutual aid, of the poor. It, it's the poor that go into mutual aid teams Yes. their productivity rises Is it only marginally though? Well but it comes up to closer to the productivity of the independent middle peasant. Mhm. Perhaps this is, this is something we could we could, we could use to talk about in some revision seminar at the beginning of next term cos we, we, we've sort of got up to nineteen fifty two erm maybe it would be helpful if, if sort of you know we just sat there over the vacation and then come back and sort of have look and see where this has got us. Erm is, is that acceptab Sorry yeah I, I It's, it's not your fault it's, I mean there are once you get into this topic it becomes quite a big one. Erm but if, if you can have a look at, at some of the taxation stuff and about the mutual aid and, and pull the things together a bit. Well the mutual aid people should look at the Yes. and also for taxation is very sort of there's one chapter which quite sort of ? Yes. So the second one, yeah? The second one, yes. And that, I mean it's very very readable and I think if you just read those two books that should give you quite a good But doesn't talk, he does only talk about the economic Erm Wong, are you talking about Wong, that blue one? No it was the erm It does everything doesn't it? It does everything. Well Wong So basically if you read Wong you're laughing. Yeah but You're laughing and I thought, right, this bloke's a wanker You move down please And you said no because there's no room and Sonia goes shut up, where d'you want us to go? . Right, the block shuts up right old Army General, line up and get in a single line we can maximise the space if you get in that leg room of about one millimetre or lie down on people's laps and then we can build or may be even lie down on The worst thing is right is old women trying to get on the train We can't, there's no room . I was just asking Old women Oh look, there's a fucking camera out there walking sticks and they've got like Parkinsons Disease knocking everyone out the way camera these two ladies and this old biddy, she's right, she always gets on the train first and all the businessmen and all the kids hat her that that one with the black hat? No, she gets on, she's always there in the morning. She gets her friend and they sort of lock arms and sort of do a rugby scrum and they knock everybody out the way. And one day and this businessman goes, do you mind, stupid cow, cos she always they just erm run and no matter and one day we we did a rugby scrum and we rammed them out the way and they went flying. It was really funny and we got The worst is the worst is when you're on a carriage which is packed with J F S kids cos they're like, they're just lying down and they dragged two of them in and there's about ten people in the other side of the carriage in about this much space and there's like two J F S kids lying on the floor in the middle of the carriage we get on the train at , most of them get on at Elstree luckily so what we do is we open the doors and they're always crowding up the bit where the door is and they say excuse me may I get on please? And th and then they let all their friends get on first There's one at Kentish Town, a businessman who smokes big fat cigars like this and he's half finished them and he throws them on the train and when the doors open no-one clears out the way and he steps on and he's such as bastard they go, bloody kids, pushing, all the but they're the ones who always they think they think they like And the things is, they always laugh, they're always laughing when they get on the train D'you know what I hate crowd all the seats yeah and you can hear them and they're like so loud and high-pitched and then when they laugh and this woman's like saying, I've saved you bloody cow and they're always shouting. D'you remember that time that that fat boy said, save your seat you bloody cow, sit in it. She said no and they start having a fight. Stupid. slob right in front of the doors and like you're trying to get off the train, d'you mind yeah, the doors come apart, the doors come apart, and they're still stuck there and like there's a puddle of spit and you just sort of push past them and the bloke goes don't care and I hate businessmen and he's carrying his briefcase and he decides he wants to get a paper right and he's absolutely massive really hate is when you're on a crowded train and you're all getting on the train and someone else who's getting off lights up a cigarette and They all s they stand there at the door going lighter as if it matters they have to get off the train with a cigarette in their mouth or they're uncool, some shit like this The worst paper is The Times No,n or The Financial Times. They go and they're holding it up here and I got, I got a bit and he goes and also him and this lady they sit there and they start murmuring about you such a bloody annoying bastard and if you talk they stare at you like this she never smiles. I've seen her laugh but I think she's taking the piss. what d'you wanna do after school like that and you step on their foot by mistake and they the trombone and they think the trombone shouldn't be there and this man says, look, picks up the trombone and puts it outside the train. He said look you don't need to take that to school, it's just taking up space which I could stand in. Fuck you you old bugger. He's such a tosser. he thinks that he can buy I could buy this standing space because I'm a businessman and I've got lots of money. Fucking tosser. Mom, mom reasonably hold on a second, just gotta put this on really nasty I hate this subject, especially with a teacher who doesn't know anything about it. every time is just compare sources which bores me stupid. Bastard teacher he's the one that reacts and freaks and pisses you off don't know. What's that under my foot?the accused Okay Maybe. No no no shut up. Cos I don't want to, it's boring . Mom?a nice time after school cleaning the desks. Mhm? Rupert's having a nice time after school cleaning the desks. No. Being sarcastic mother, you know what a he is. Yeah, well teachers are all dicks so they don't know how to discipline anyone. They're all thick. Pardon? Barbara Oh, Barbara, silly cow. Bertie Wooster and the resourceful Jeeves Hugh Laurie and Stephen Fry find themselves back in New York in the first new episode of the new and final series of Jeeves and Wooster beginning on I T V this week. What time, what day is it on? Writer Clive has created the plot lines by interviewing What? Boring as hell I mean, it's not a boring programme but you'd find it boring, believe me. What kind of computer does he want? He wants an expensive computer What's it called? The B B C shit? I mean bollocks shit or something He just wants a better one than they've got now but a very basic No he wants a decent computer. He doesn't want a P C bollocks I said that's what he's got I bet he wants a bollocks P C. Bollocks. Well why doesn't she buy him a computer? Well bollocks . Look, if she can send him to Westminster or Eton she's got money. Yeah, well, then I don't see why he his father can't pay for it. Well why can't his father pay for a computer? I'm not doing as much homework but bloody hard at school which Roland won't appreciate, which really pisses me off cos I don't Well, sometimes, I mean, yes at the moment but we're working very hard at s Well cos we're working much harder in school at the moment and also the exams are coming up Bollocks. one, Arsenal three, Arsenal two, Leeds United two, Leeds United two, Arsenal three, Arsenal three, Nottingham Forest nil, Ipswich two, Arsenal four, Arsenal one, Tottenham Hotspur nil. Fuck you. Got t I'm keeping it. I just wanna cut the picture of Kim Basinger off the front page. Well, just a couple f pages out of it. . Mom you know the quality of this sound recording thing well it's not very good. I don't know how they expect to get anything out of it. It's very bad I'm reading. No Wh why don't you just go out? You'll feel better. Believe me, I feel like that every morning and I'm never sick. Yeah, well I do, believe me, I feel very s Mom, I gag on the way t Who's Laura ? Have you heard of someone called Laura ? She's a Hollywood gossip. what? This one. Sh what this one? No, it's not made up, I've seen her before on T V in a minute. that's the life . Ever seen the film called A Man For All Seasons? Is it good? Is it any good? Sir Thomas Moore Look mom, the pick of satellite films mom, I mean three of them only get two stars. Shows you what a load of crap they have on satellite. Yes, one second. One, sorry I wanna read this, I'll be b I promise I'll be there in a minute. I'll just quickly read what I want to Okay . I said I would I'm g No, taking it just from him just cos he's an old sod come too often. Here. Is coming? Who? I'll be back after set the table? Well, I didn't know he'd gone did I?mother fucking right and my fucking London, Europe, England, the world is a complete prat he he he. I recorded that Caelia Be quiet That was her shut up I wasn't recording, I paused it hairy legs I wasn't practising, I was on a perfectly perched up on the roof surrounded by No the garden Dad, dad, the crews will be sweeping down that side passage and then coming over and then past my window again. No, they really are, they've got the dive bombers on us next week mom, or is it this week? Oh shit. Shut up shut up. Yes. Yeah. Yes. Don't pick your toe nails I wasn't. I was at her but I wasn't Yes. Yeah well shut up shut up shut up Oh look it's shut up. Mom, they've got the Dambusters. Dad, is the Dambusters a good film? It certainly is Is Dambusters a good film? It's on next week. Saturday. It's on Saturday. Well we'll video it No, no, we're not videoing the Dambusters cos there's got the cup final on tomorrow. We might already have We don't, we don't Are you sure Yeah Yeah but we can't record it cos we'll either record the cup final and I wanna record the cup final yes I do Alright, I don't mind We'll stay in and watch the cup final Yeah well granddad better let me. I'm not I'm watching the cup final so don't worry There is. I'm pretty sure there 's are over now Better let me watch it, I'm gonna watch that . Yeah, they were swooping, they were up on you know across there, you know across erm er opposite there's that house where th that has the garden at the bottom of ours. Well, they were perching on the erm chimneys of that one and then they've been coming they're gonna be swooping round up not actually low but above it, about fly to the bathroom then spread up, turning a circle, coming down and going past my window and land they were big crows they must have seen it land or something like that. Yeah well th cos they've been waiting up there on the thing and they've land or they've just been circ moving moving No it's not No, it's not, it just wakes them up and it just moved a bit and I went in again, I looked at the window and they moved again Well of course it's gonna move, if she says your face she might be sick cos it sees Caelia's face punishment She's Caelia, that's Caelia of course there should be boiling water here comes the man I don't know. Oh God, I forgot. I set the table but I forgot about the water. Oh shut up. I set the table. Oi, shut it. Dad? Now don't shout cauliflower won't take very long Sorry, I did forget mom, I swear. really nice I'm sorry for it gonna dive bomb, bird shit at the ready No I won't. Caelia go away, Patrick go away. Don't, you're so sad, get lost. d'you wanna come up? Yeah. Yeah okay, bring it, leave it in here. there's a heron in our garden a heron? where? just round the side Is it dead? No, it got attacked by some crows, they bit it Yeah, it's just not working right. It don't work right. It's an old one, very old Yeah, pull the trigger my dad, my dad goes I went like this, he said don't worry it's not loaded fired, just past my dad's head what, a bullet? gun powder in it? It's a bit blocked up at the moment but yeah it would I'm getting an automatic next time I go in there. The man said he'd save me one,un unclipped they won't let me get . No, he'll get it for fifty. Next time you go Uncapped. It's uncapped you know the thing you put in banging of the guns under a hundred years, it hasn't got that in it. It's wicked. It comes with three cartridges. You know those ones you click on and then you put bullets buying an air gun Is that air gun good? Yeah, very good What's it like?is it? have you seen it? Yep yeah sure? fifteen pounds metal ball bearings yeah I would Could've done, probably shoot myself Joe's got one shoot a cat's tail off, it can shoot a cat's tail off Joe shot a pigeon I know, his head blew off exploded, his head exploded it didn't, his head went like picked it up, dropped it in the bin his head exploded Sick, I wouldn't do that I'd do that, I'd do it to a dog I'd never shoot a dog I like dogs the biggest thing I'd shoot would be a little bird I'd only shoot a little bird if it was dead, if it was like half dead, like if Joe had shot it al Mom it's Sally did you to America or I bet I've been to more schools than Australia, I've been to four schools in Australia what those things there? Shoes my schools shoes the other school blazer's a hundred pounds might as well just give you a blazer and it's cheaper now, it's forty pounds. Yeah? You'll have to go s Yeah, I know Pa dad, call me I ain't got any when we us the last two and that one exploded on me I had this and it goes and exploded all over me and went over Some things are different a silly old git isn't he? a turkey yeah, see what I do, shit. I do the opposite too hard. What do you do in America? No, cos you have examinations to you have to be Yeah, but you had to pass an examination, didn't you? Yeah, I passed. I find it I don't find it very hard bu well not all of it some of it hard, it is hard though. I don't know where it is now do you now, do you know Max? Max , yeah I know him. He's thick. He's intelligent but he's a dick head Why, what does he do? He's just thick he. Oh fuck. I gotta go. You gotta go now Pat. down the pub? I'll be down in about twenty minutes, okay? Pat, come over here in about twenty five minutes, okay? Do you know Adam? Adam Adam ? Adam Do you know his name though? what does he look like? Bye Pat, come back in about twenty five minutes. . That boy went to the same primary school as I'll take your word for that That's about all I want, okay, I'm not very hungry. That's about all I want mom cos I'm not very hungry today. rush out, it's just that I'm not very hungry. Caelia use your fork use your fork. Okay, one more, one more. Come on, take a piece. Shall I stop this while we're eating? No no Well, I'll take the microphone off cos I'll put it like this, down here like this No Caelia, no just leave it alone. This side's nearly finished so erm, bit less than Caelia same amount I'm not very hungry I'm just not hungry didn't I? careful, careful that's hot shut up d'you want erm any more what stage are you on? you just switch it on again Alexander, d'you want some more Alexander What? D'you want some more? Ah, yes please. don't you know it? No? No Wow Which one are you playing? How far have you got yourself? Which level have you got to? First? Yeah. I can get to erm fourth level Which one have you got to Alexander? Twenty two, but that's only cos use the keys Did that go on the floor? Yeah that's only cos I use the keys have your wits about you . No. or this morning, I can't think if I remembered Yeah I did tape should be ready in a minute. Should be ready after we've finished our Are you rewinding something on the video? Yeah Yeah I wondered what that noise was? Shortly after you've finished that, I really ought to take you back Jake after we've finished the video Well, how long will it take? Not finis, just see a little bit Is it, is the new one then? Yeah The beginning? right not Well he can come another day and look at it darling because I don't want you to be too late tonight, you've got all that Lego to clear up Just that, just that video We have to be early tomorrow because of going up to London you see. I know. Mommy? Have you seen square inch Mommy, please can we just do him? please? Goldfinger? Just watch Goldfinger It takes about two hours to watch it Not all of it. Not two hours for all of it. Well then you'll say you don't want to stop. You can watch it until quarter past six and no longer, right? Well Yes, absolutely, because I said I'd have Jake back about six at home No I did not I'm sure you did Because I want to give you time to clear up Did you got to pick him up or did No, his mother brought him I didn't see his mother remember it's upstairs, isn't it? No cos you weren't even dressed cos that's Is that beef cooked enough? Mhm, yeah they're home made absolutely disgusting That's not very nice absolutely disgusting is it? Well Alex? Yes, remember to close the tree house door when we go out. Just in case it rains Alex? Yeah? You know those rice krispy things at school for pudding. Yeah Do you know how to make it? No I do Yes you do know how to make it What? Those chocolate rice krispies chocolate ones golden syrup Mhm. Yeah. It's butter and syrup then you put condensed milk in condensed milk do they have in them? Mhm I've never made them with condensed milk. Are they yummy? Mhm Is that how they make them at school darling? Yeah Do you eat them? Mhm Actually that's what affects your eczema because condensed milk What is condensed milk? It's that stuff that comes out of a tin that's very rich ugh You probably don't have it you've probably never had it. I've probably had it I used to make it for the girls when they were little Why? For puddings very occasionally Pudding? Condensed milk, wow Jake, do you want the other half? Erm, I'll have a bit of it please I'll have the other bit I'll have a tiny bit Come and tell me how much you'd like. Bring your plates like that, or do you want like that? Erm, no that will be enough Yes please Does mommy make peaches , I expect she does No, my nanny does Your nanny? Oh, you've got a nanny at the moment, have you? Yes Nice, is she? Yes Where does she come from? Is she Erm she comes Local? Does she live in or just come daily? She comes daily Alright? cheese or mozzarella?tomato base Everybody at school says mozzarella cheese is disgusting I take no notice of them Well I should think that's quite right. They probably, they probably get it given to you on your school pizzas What cheese is disgusting? Mozzarella, the one you're eating It's nice I know, that's what pe people say is disgusting For some reason or another I've found a pizza that doesn't affect his skin That cheese. You took these didn't you? got a bit crisp. Have you finished with that, shall I give it to the birds? Alexander? Shall I give it to the birds? Yes thank you mommy No, Alexander. Just behave nicely. I should pick it up and bite it with your teeth if it's getting too difficult. Don't worry. It's possibly the best way of getting it. Is it too hot? Is it still very hot? Is it really?on the top there D d cos I suppose Amber has to go to school on Saturdays, doesn't she? Mhm But not your other sister? Not the little one? No Mozzarella cheese So is Amber going to board when she comes to I'm not sure. I think she is. Weekly board I suppose, like you. Do you know where the girls are going to sleep yet? Oh, some of them are gonna sleep in the surgery In the surgery? Yep. Dad's gonna change it into a girls dormitory. And where are they then gonna have the surgeries? Don't know In the sand That's gonna be difficult Where's the sand then? Which is where? Is that where the big ones have the sand with the television? I should have thought they might have had them in a separate house really but I suppose there won't be enough of them to begin with House? Do you know how many girls Amber's going to have in her form? There are three in your form. Might be only two or three Jake, do you want some fruit or anything now? Have some fruit, have a banana or a tangerine or something. cheers Jake, what would you like? Apple? It's like Swiss cheese, swiss cheese is like that. Would you like a banana? Yes please Do you want to give me your plate have it on a little one. Do you want any more cakes or anything? We've got fifteen minutes to watch James Bond Alex, look at the time I didn't like it first, when I bought it I thought it was a bit crap Yeah, I first heard it Did you hear jump around? Yeah, I heard jump around. Have you heard the remix of jump around. Yeah It's real funny innit? strange jump around, jump around Did you think it was any good? Pardon? What did you think? what did you think? I thought it was crap at first. I listened to it again and I thought it was good. The first time, right, I thought this can't be house of . Put it on again, thought, hey it's sweet. Didn't like it first time . I've read more pages. I've read pa I've read I'll show you how much I've read . I read from there, fifty six, to there, that much. Shit, that'd take me a week. This is the remix. No, put on the real one. Turn it over. It's go it's you can hear the words better on that one. It's got wicked words. Right, that one. Yeah, you're right. They do make out they're black. I'm glad cos they're all black and overweight. Bastards. Specially Iced Tea, he's a monk. got my history homework My gran and granddad are coming round. When's that? Pardon? When? Coming round tonight, that's why I've gotta record some of this. I'm supposed to have six tapes. I've only done one. This is my second one . Mhm When you first heard this, what did you think? I thought it was shit then I thought it was good. I look that bit actually where they go What? It's a good bit that actually pick it up, pick it up. right, is that the same size as your book? What? Pick up a book. Is that writing the same size or is yours smaller? Mine's a wee bit smaller. It's probably about one size What're you doing for Humanities? Erm, roots roots? roots About the film? It's good I've watch it already. We're just doing about blacks Have you seen a f have you heard of a film called The Unborn? I've heard it I haven't seen it Another one I wanna see is called erm, I can't remember what it's called. It's like this people th they're deep sea divers and they discover, they're stuck in the crevice, a big erm nuclear submarine and what it's for is an experiment that's gone wrong and it it's to make and instead they make an abomination you know, incredibly powerful and intelligent but really nasty you know, murderous and killer and so they take they take him to these people. They they come down there but they haven't got enough oxygen to get up and so they gotta stay on this thing with this creature. It's a bit like Alien ex and it kills them off one by one. The nastiest one I've seen is called, have you heard of a film called Brain Dead? Sick isn't it? That man with Shit reviews though man It's horrible isn't it? The reviews it got Real sick though isn't it? Is i that's the one with the picture of a man on the front isn't it? with his head in that metal thing Yeah It looks really disgusting. I wanna see it Do you? I don't wanna see it be sick No, I can't cos I've gotta do this. I can do some but. Oh shit fuck Here Pat ssh Let's do a record. What do you have to record? Do you like ? Bollocks conversation yes, talk normally, just talk normally, right come on what, are you doing it now? Yes, just shut up just talk normally okay Patrick goes out with sparrow legs. Patrick is an English book who goes to school. He lives at London, England, the world it comes out at the beginning. It goes by the time and you're going, you asked for it you guys, you asked for it so sad cos Have you seen The Running Man? Yeah It's good isn't it? It's quite good though isn't it It's not bad Do you know what it is? Do you know the story Yeah, I know like kind of thing Yeah jump up jump up get down Are you recording? Jump around, jump up g recording what? king of the crew I am a and my name is Tom people say to me your head looks like a condom. I am a punk and a and he goes and he Oh shit and he goes erm I am a con my head looks like a condom. My name is I can't help it, it's not my fault funny it's like cos they had the keyboard and that sort of rap beat it's like,and all my kebabs are in salad cream, rap it on, stack it on, that's my scene,gimme some kebab kebab gimme ages, wicked tune, I mean all these words I sang a song about and he goes shut up okay shut up After this was the best because he got wicked . I'm gonna get Howard. when he walked through the bushes Yeah Yeah I did. He came through the bushes so I in his head. He thought it was me I thought it was you and I ran off, it was you, and th and I saw you come from the bush with Howard. Oh fuck. fuck quite hard that's what they do on the front, that's what they do on the front of invasion. It's got a man smashing his head in and killing his dad. It's Ice Tea coming in killing the boy's dad. The boy ear phones has his dad being killed and his mom being raped. That's him killing his dad No it's not, it's not him, it's Ice Tea doing it I know cos that's wh you sh you have to listen to words carefully What's it saying? Well it's saying I'm gonna rape your mom and Yeah, I know I heard that I can't remember but anyway it Can I take cos I wanna listen to it No you can't, sorry Pat, I can't let you. You can ta you can borrow . I was gonna buy it but I thought no, it ain't worth it What ? Yeah jump up jump and get down. Hey, I'm glad they're English cos all the bloody groups are black. I'm gonna show it to my dad. Hey Pat, come and show it to my dad What? House of pain. I wanna show him the cover the true Irish people. Where's the cover? Where did you put the cover? Jump up jump up and get . Pat, you dr you know when you dropped the tapes on the floor, you dropped your one down there. What? Here comes the one you dig, the one's you don't . Dad look, I just wanna show you the tape I bought. House of Pain. Irish. It's an Irish rap group. Parental advisory there are explicit lyrics. Ha, that's on all my taps. I ain't got any tapes which doesn't say that on them. They all have parental advisory. What about I haven't done my history yet You haven't done it? No What have you been doing? I've been recording for this that gotta be in tomorrow? Yeah, there's not that much of it left to do Well, I think Patrick stay much longer than half an hour Okay, half an hour. Come on, let's go upstairs Pat Why? Basketball. Yeah, might as well. Okay . You got the one's you dig, the one you want. House of pain . You said yesterday you were going along with the Irish Did you think I was serious? No I wish I was Irish, I wish I wasn't English. Here we go, here we go. Oh, here we go. I'll come, wait a second I'm coming. Transfer. Okay. Okay, got the thing? Where did you put it?from the bath, that's good. If my mom sees you you're dead Pat. will largely be seen after the New Year's Day holiday so essentially you could still that the first regional survey to have been largely compiled of the results drawn er er from the beginning of this year and, and the, and the, and you know you see some reference in the press release to estimates based o on our survey of manufacturing employment er er for the regions, those figures are consistent with our national figures on, on the trend in manufacturing employment and our short term forecast which as a matter of fact was publ published at the end of last month so results. Thank you very much. Erm I think the main story as we sort of lead off from the, from the news release is saying that essentially erm our interpretation of the results is that the r the recovery has spread erm to all regions of the economy, at least in terms of orders erm and in terms of the mainland erm economy including Northern Ireland but I'll go into more details on that in a moment. Erm I'll just sort of er talk briefly about sort of main trends and, and sort of output and orders and so on and then go through in terms of some of the implications that results as regards to employment and domestic crisis. Erm looking at the employ sorry looking at the output side er the question looking at trends and output over the last four months shows that in all the four regions manufacturers say that output has increased over the preceding four months. Erm the fastest rise is recorded in Yorkshire and Humberside in Wales and in Scotland. Erm in Yorkshire and Humberside a little bit unexpected, the October survey showed that orders were flat and expectations about output were also fairly flat so it's come through erm rather better than people thought it would in the Yorkshire and Humberside region. Erm in Wales and Scotland also slightly better than people expected erm a rise was, was expected but not as strong as we, as we've actually seen erm the Welsh and Scottish er economies, certainly there's cle clear evidence in Scotland but I think one can read it for Wales as well, showing that the manufacturing economy er very much being buoyed up by the electronic sector erm and that probably er helping to explain why growth has been so strong in those parts of the country. Erm other regions also showing increases erm East Midlands, south east, West Midlands erm all of those show increases on the back of in previous bordl borders. The same true, though to a slightly less extent, I think the North West so although the increase is, is not as strong as in Yorkshire, Wales and Scotland, nevertheless continuing to trends. Erm the parts of the country where things have been a bit flat seem to be the north and the south west and both of those are regions in which export orders received fell in the previous two surveys so that seems to be consistent although in the north they seem to have picked up somewhat in this survey erm and optimism is also erm er stronger in this survey than it was in the previous one. Erm in East Anglia erm sorry that's, that's true for the north and the south west, in East Anglia er output also has been flat erm but that seems to be related to weakness in export demand in the region erm export was the weakest er in that region of any region throughout the U K although total optimism is strong so it seems to be the case erm though business is being done the export economy erm in East Anglia. Finally Northern Ireland shows that there has been decline in output over the preceding four months and the only region t t to say that erm it's fair to say that North Northern Ireland has been a weak region throughout er the recession erm and although in this survey optimism has climbed up a bit so it's close to the U K average, it's nevertheless a part of the U K which has really been behaving er rather differently from the rest of the economy reflecting its sort of,i its particular problems and the fact that it's not part of the mainland economy. So that's what's been going on in terms of output, in terms of orders already received, orders are up in all mainland regions of the U K. It's the first time that we've seen that since er the beginning of the recession and that's the sense in which we think one can say erm reasonably sort of er straightforwardly that the recovery has indeed spread around the mainland economy. Again Yorkshire and Humberside er Scotland and Wales tending to lead that erm all of them as I said have got strong output trends erm in terms of Yorkshire and Humberside the orders er seem to be very much domestic rather than export but widely spread between sectors which gives reassurance to them. South east also doing well and in the south east, looking at the it seems to be the case, one can't put too strong an el too strong erm a sort of weight on it but it seems to be the case that in the south east it's the food, drink and tobacco sector and chemicals which are tending to, to lead the way there erm Scotland also strong export demand. Orders growth has been less strong in other regions the north which is consistent with the output story and the south west again consistent, south west has seen falls in export orders for s three surveys in a row now erm the north west again export orders flat and again down in Northern Ireland. Going from there to, and that's a sort of history of where things have happened over the previous four mon four months, to expectations about output this is the first survey since the recession began in which all regions, mainland regions of the U K say that they expect output to increase over the coming four months. Admittedly in one or two cases the inference is fairly marginal but nevertheless it's the first time all the numbers have been positive. The regions which are leading are in some cases different from those which have been leading in terms of the historic trends over the last four months. Erm East Midlands erm expect to do well and that continues a reasonably firm trend. East Anglia also expects to do well and that seems to er stock numbers indicate an end to de-stocking in East Anglia and that being the explanation. South east very much consistent with past orders and with expectations of orders both total and export, so in this case it's sort of the export total story as well as the domestic demand story helping the region. And the West Midlands for four or five surveys we've seen strong total orders broadly based between se sectors, strong output trends so the West Midlands being our leading er region is consistent with what we've seen from other surveys. Erm and then the weaker regions coming through, the north west, the south west Wales and Northern Ireland I think it's fair to say, particularly in the case of Wales which is perhaps one of the more surprising erm elements there, Wales as you know has tended to be quite a strong region during the recovery period erm it may be because er certain, I think a lot of although as I say Wales is a weaker region in terms of the expected expected over the next four months it's nevertheless from a reasonably high level because it's done well so far erm and I wouldn't want to over stress the sense in which Wales is perhaps not doing as well as the others. Erm it would be wrong to say Wales is a weak region on the basis of this, it's just not, doesn't appear, or doesn't expect to grow as strongly as it was growing. That's the sort of the general trend erm and from there we can go on to other things. As far as employment is concerned erm we ask er companies questions about the trend in employment over the past four months and the expected trend and we then calculate from that and the numbers are at the back of the book, pages seven page seventy one basically and on the graphs which follow. We calculate that on an estimate of what we think has happened to employment in the quarter erm and that calculation tells us, and it seems to be re reasonably right in the sense that it's got a, a good tr a good record of tracking erm the official numbers when they eventually come out. Since the, that methodology tells us that although employment has been cut erm in the first quarter of this year on our calcul er calculations in many regions of the economy with the south east particularly hard hit well in one region, the West Midlands, for the first time we're seeing an increase in employment. Now admittedly it's an increase of two thousand out of about half a million so one isn't sort of er er getting over excited about it but nevertheless it's the first upward number which we've had. So employment tending to er level off there at er at the er level. Investment has turned positive overall at the U K level and the regions which are leading investment expectations and this is people's expectations about what they're going to do in terms of investment in plant and machinery over the year ahead which I think is probably the meaningful one to focus on rather than buildings numbers erm the two regions which are leading that are the south west erm and that makes sense because the south west is, has the lowest number of firms who say that they're working below capacity and also the West Midlands, for the last five surveys the West Midlands has either been the most optimistic region in terms of the general business conditions, or the second most optimistic so it's not entirely surprising that they now say that they expect to invest on the back of the strength of that optimism. Domestic prices, only three regions expect prices to increase by a meaningful amount. Erm they are Yorkshire and Humberside which I think is probably related to the strength of orders and demand in that region, East Midlands where they, where it's sort of consistent with a trend erm in the last few surveys where they say that they have achieved modest price rises erm and where costs have not been falling, erm and also Wales. But nevertheless it's im important to remember that this is a survey erm which is conducted at the time of year when most compan or many companies raise their list prices and if one looks at the past sort of record of this survey both at the regional level and the national level, one generally does see a bit of an upturn in the pr in the prices numbers at this time of year because people are raising their list prices erm and once you allow for that erm I think these numbers are er very good in terms of prices trends, very low for the time of year. The other thing on that sort of erm side is that this is the first survey which we've had since we started doing the survey in nineteen eighty eight when the first numbers were compiled, it's the first survey which we've had where the majority of regions' manufacturers say that their unit costs have already fallen, erm we haven't seen that before, so the majority of regions said that the costs had fallen. Erm all that sort of leads me back to where I started from, our perception of this survey is that it's encouraging in the sense that it suggests that the recovery in the economy is erm widening and deepening if you like, it's widening in the sense that it's spreading to all the mainland regions of the U K and it's deepening in the sense that erm firstly, although there are regional variations within this, it's clearly not purely an export story and it's not purely a domestic story, it's a mixture of the two which gives us some reassurance erm it's also deepening in the sense that there's no evidence from the survey of anything which is likely to trip up the recovery in the short term, and remember that most of these er questions relate to the next four months, not all of them, but mo most of them relate to the next four months so one doesn't want to extrapolate too far forward but nevertheless if you look at erm er most obviously sort of the the crisis and the inflation questions, if you look at er political and economic conditions abroad which has declined the constraint on exports in six out of, out of er the eleven regions, you see no evidence of any impending constraints likely to trip up the recovery. I'm not saying it's not gonna happen but there is no evidence to suggest that it will from the survey. Thank you Richard. Questions ladies and gentlemen? Er just one question I don't really understand the erm employment levels. Erm on page seventy one it says London and the south east shows manufacturing employment still falling is it the sin that war, then this would seriously affect the alliance, the, the NATO alliance. In other words we were, we were considerably concerned about the extent of the war. Now you can see what would have happened if McArthur's advice had, had been followed. The original objective was to liberate South Korea, it then began to unite Korea but if you raise the objective to an assault on China proper then, then you would have to quote General Ridgeway, who was a commander on the spot, er you'd be fighting the wrong war, the wrong time and in the wrong place. What would be the purpose of that escalation? And the answer was nothing unless you actually wish to attack China and er defeat China through military means and the task of doing that of course was enormously out of proportion to the original er cause of the war. Er the Cuban missiles crisis. Now here you had a very different situation because the nuclear dimension was now starting to become very important. The erm onset of that crisis was the attempt made by the Soviet Union to emplace erm medium range missile bases on Cuba. And President Truman, sorry er President erm Kennedy er a democrat, it's democrats that always seem to get involved in these kinds of wars as, as was the case in the Vietnam war, erm er President Kennedy in fact took this to be er a radical change in the strategic balance and th this is the way the crisis was represented. But in fact the problem was the position of Castro and of the communist regime in Cuba. The er Soviets claimed that, that these missiles were not offensive, and indeed the weren't offensive. The United States had the same sort of missiles in Italy and in Turkey and, before this crisis had developed, President Kennedy had in fact ordered them er to be er er returned to the United States, these missiles had no strategic purpose at all because a major change that had come into the strategic equation was the arrival of the intercontinental ballistic missile, and it was these missiles, really, which held the strategic balance er and were to change in fact radically both international politics and global strategy over the years to come, but I'm going to talk about that later, the point I'm making here is that er Khrushchev claimed that the missiles were there in the event of an American assault on Cuba, they were a deterrent weapon in exactly the same way as the defensive deterrent weapons er were d were defensive er for er the United States and for the Soviet Union. And the context in which this was er argued er was er the Bay of Pigs invasion of Cuba, a C I A American supported invasion, er which er failed very badly but which certainly indicated the American desire to get rid of Castro and er Khrushchev was asserting in effect that he had as much right to defend an ally as the United States had er to defend erm its allies and in the same sort of way. Now Kennedy had a dilemma although Cuba was in the Caribbean, and although the United States had the biggest navy in the world, and the biggest airforce and was easily able to exterminate Cuba if it wa if it wished to, it was vulnerable, however, in other areas, in particular it was vulnerable in Berlin and it was vulnerable in Indo-China. In nineteen sixty one, prior to the crisis, the Americans had to face the rather humiliating settlement in Laos by which they accepted a communist erm er government, or at least a government which had communist members, erm Kennedy wanted to intervene in Laos but again was restrained by his British ally, MacMillan wouldn't in fact accept er that we should get involved in a ground war in Indo-China. Er in the case of Berlin, the er situation there was er that Russia er of course the Soviet Union could intervene in Berlin more or less at will, given that it was a small island in East Germany and was always a vulnerable, always, always in a position of being a hostage. So Kennedy couldn't act precipitantly, he couldn't simply do what he wanted to do which was to get rid of Castro, because if he'd done that then his policy objectives in other parts of the world would be in jeopardy. He couldn't threaten the Soviet Union directly because the Soviet Union was a nuclear power and couldn't be threatened er so the course of action he took was intended to be moderate and to secure the objective solely of removing the missiles from Cuba, not of doing anything about the Cuban government or the regime or anything of that sort. And so they came to a negotiated settlement by which the Soviets agreed to withdraw the missiles and the United States promised that they would not interfere with Castro again, although from that day to this they have maintained of course their economic embargo. Er and here you have a case of diplomacy succeeding er and the spectre of war and possibly nuclear war erm fading out. Limits were set in short by both sides on what they sought to do and how they sought to do it and these limits erm weren't self-evident at the time I can tell you because the American military, the Chiefs of Staff on the Executive Committee that discussed this an and took the decisions, were all in favour of making s air strikes on these bases and possibly er an er an armed intervention and so the military advice here er was er was rather similar to that of McArthur's, that is turn the, the crisis into er a different kind of crisis, turn it in fact into a war. Now thirdly the Vietnam war, now this was perhaps the most harrowing war the Americans ever got themselves involved in and has had deep and permanent effects upon American policy making to this very day. Now what were the limits so far as the Vietnam war was concerned? Well initially the United States genuinely believed that with a small force, perhaps about a hundred thousand, maybe two hundred thousand troops, but principally using air power, that they could prevent the North Vietnamese from helping the Vietcong in the south and thus continuing the civil war. Now one can make judgments about means and indeed as I was saying in my last lecture, the actual capability of the weapons you have can only really be found out when you use them and then you can see, very often, that they are in fact ineffective. Now wa the, the erm war began with Operation Rolling Thunder and this was erm er President Johnson's plan er to pound major targets in North Vietnam by aerial bombardment and make, make the cost of their intervention in the south very high, so high that they would cut off the umbilical cord and starve the, the Vietcong into submission through ground operations in the south. That was the basic plan. He started off, as did Truman, in the United Nations by trying to get the Security Council to adopt a resolution er calling er the North Vietnamese aggressors and authorizing er an American, I E U N intervention. This failed. It failed because the French and the British were unhappy about supporting such a move and indeed the United Nations looked very likely er er to be more erm willing to condemn the United States than it was to condemn North Vietnam but the view of most countries in the world at that time was that North Viet that North and South Vietnam were part of the same country, that the Geneva accords in nineteen fifty four which called for unification should be upheld, and that the United States was interfering in, in a south east Asian country for no good reason. So it is a hostile atmosphere and so hostile was it in the United Nations that the Americans decided to cripple it, and what they did was to invoke erm an article which called for the removal of votes from those states who were in, who were in arrears in the payment of their dues, of their, their funds and there were several countries in that category, two of them the Soviet Union and France, and the reason why they had not pal paid their dues was because they objected to the use of the, these funds for peacekeeping forces which had not been authorized by the Security Council, in their argument the Security Council was the, the supreme authority and the General Assembly had in fact not the right to authorize er peacekeeping activities and indeed, if you read the charter, this is the case although legal advice is conflicting on that point as it usually is. Erm well the solution to that was to hold the meetings of the General Assembly, where the hostile American majority was, but not to permit a vote to be taken on any resolution and this meant that President Johnson could pursue his, his then secret plan of bombing the north without any hostile United Nations resolution being passed against it. Two years later the Americans quietly dropped the whole issue and the, the UN returned to normal but by that time of course the situation had become what it was, er er a war. Well limits then, so air, air, air bombardment and the use of some ground forces but principally to, to get er the South Vietnamese army er to contest er the Vietcong on the ground. Well that failed as you would imagine it to fail if you take the civil war in Vietnam as being in effect a, a war of national liberation, as the Soviets called it, because what the North Vietnamese wanted was in fact national unity. They were fighting for an objective which was far more important than local arrangements or local agreements er with er foreign imperial powers about who governed what er in, in their own country. And so they were prepared to go on taking the punishment, taking the cost because their objectives were,ha had a different scale of value to the objectives sought by the United States. Two or three years later with half a million troops they are still no further forward in their struggle in Vietnam and the cost this time was to the United States' political system because the effect upon domestic politics was fairly severe. After the North Vietnamese revealed that they were able to sustain erm a w er their war in er erm the south it seemed regardless of what, what the United States could do to them, er after they'd revealed this in the Tet offensive of nineteen sixty eight, then President Johnson announced he would not be standing for re-election, and that was a significant admission of political defeat and if you remember, well you probably won't remember but you certainly should've read about it, President Nixon was returned with a, a majority er er on the platform of ending the Vietnam war. The casualties I think were something like fifty, fifty seven thousand dead and a very very large number of people wounded because of the particularly beastly kind of war with all kinds of weapons being used. Now why was the United States defeated and was this war a rational war? Well the objective was the maintenance of a friendly regime er in a country which had become part of the American sphere of influence. No one however at the time questioned why it was necessary to do that. What was the significance of keeping South Vietnam in the American fold? No one asked that question, they simply focused upon er the, the communist insurrection in t any more questions ladies and gentlemen? If not there are some drinks at the back and you can ask us any questions informally. Thank you very much for coming. Thank you. your duty. What is your position in all of this. Are you regarding this you mean? Yeah. We there's Don and myself two individuals who have been on the course for incident training with Fire Brigade. Right. That's why we've come to be the two individuals who are, in inverted comma, Responsible for whatever happens during an incident. How long ago was the course? . Oh god my certificate's in the office somewhere . What we talking about? Five years? Four years? No no no no it's . wha what'll it be about er about two years I think Right. and that's a shot in the dark quite a current Oh yes yes yes by all accounts we were sent by the racecourse here you see Right. the pair of us on a course over there. Erm now in my wisdom I I thought that obviously considering we're now classed as incident stewards the o the thing to do was to put the certificates up in a prominent place so that everybody who visited the site knew who were the incident stewards were . Right. So I left mine to be done with and er where it's gone since then is anybody's guess. Right. Because it was before just before we moved the offices but it's kicking around somewhere in an envelope with my name on the front of it but where I wouldn't know. But Don apparently took his Right. but I said to Don, Well I would have thought they have had to have been displayed er to support the fact that they do have incident s you know trained incident stewards on site. Did you draw that up? Along with erm Robin yes, yeah . It's quite comprehensive isn't it? Really but er to be out of date It's out of date in certain areas, there are cer We'd never you see what we did we knocked up a rough copy. Then we e enhanced it and then eventually er Robin knocked this up you see from all the work we'd done, but we never sat down and went through this. Now there are one or two little things in here which have become contradictory you look at it but he'd alread he'd passed this over to the fire service who were very happy with it Right. and that's the way its it left we left it but of course as I mentioned to him we'd completely omitted Tats which of course we we we hadn't done Tats at all. Mhm. Er erm we have since had the alteration in our structure here which of course puts quite a bit of it out of date. Yeah. But i if you you see a all he said to me , Tats is closed at the moment, he said er Yeah but but Tats is gonna be open in the summer and if anything happen in the summer Mind you its its open now because W the fish and chips are there absolutely and if there's gonna be a fire it's likely to happen in that fish and chip shop . but t to me it's the biggest fire risk we've probably got on the site. Yeah. pay attention to get the Tats list Yeah y yeah yeah yeah and and get some money that's responsible for Tats. Yeah. can't have erm Mr doing that cos nobody would understand him would they? So to be a steward or somebody that . is generally at that end of things. I think what we've got to do, one of the things we've got to do is is it's alright talking about a steward as an A N other, but I think we've gotta know where the A N other is. We don't name him but whoever is in a particular spot should be responsible for a certain area, which in in fundamentally it is done that in quite a number of instances but I mean one thing that springs to mind is that a lady shall clear the ladies toilets. Mm. What lady, where from? Who specify from one of the bar, a particular bar wasn't it. Yeah but is there a lady in that bar always? Generally yes. Generally. But it it's sods law that it will happen there isn't a lady there behind the bar. Well, really if there's a fire does it matter whether it's a lady or gent that ? I don't think so but we've specified in here a lady shall. see upstairs we say,The steward will clear the toilets. Well what do you reckon Mandy? I mean if you matters if it's a If if the fire alarms going off and you're in the ladies loo an and a bloke sort of is shouting from the doorway to clear the place Mm. I think in a er incident like that I don't it matters whether it's male or female . No I I I do agree with you, but I a lady in there. Yeah. There's only one thing that struck me when I was reading through it but a as I say, we we got to look at this from point of view are we going to date this as it lies at the present moment and add to it pieces that we want, or do we start off by having the pieces o i its its now whe w w I would have thought first of all we've got to update what we've got as it Yeah yeah. I think it's a good document. Secondly then we've got to add To it. to it. The areas that have been demolished and Yeah. and Yeah. changing meeting points and things. The other thing I I wasn't sure and this is just my thoughts on it, you are using the stewards as as points where they're going to be you know coordinating people and everything. With so many visiting stewards all the time we haven't got a regular pattern of of any stewards that's going to be responsible. A absolutely. So it's it's all in all must be done by staff. Yeah yeah yeah. It must be. You cannot rely on stewards because you know they're they're not here all the time. Er what we have got to do you see a as I have said we really got to designate a duty to a position Mm. as opposed to an individual, because our staff is switching round all the time Yeah. the they day staff, so consequently whoever's in a =pec specific position has got to have the responsibilities that go with that position. the sta the static point are the bars Yeah yeah. so That's . using Don upstairs Yeah yeah yeah using Ray and Jenny Yeah. and Mike and Geoff Yeah yeah that's fine and as licensees Yeah. they're also very much aware about evacuation procedures anyway . Yeah yeah yeah. So I think we ought to you know use that. But then you see you've got places like the weighing room, jockeys areas which basically y you've got temporary staff there, or casual staff. Erm. which sometimes does fluctuate, not always. You've got temporary staff on the gates Right. erm that's why er you know really i it is essential that certainly who ever is going to be in that position knows what . Right first of all There's one generally static person in the weighing room . Yeah. That's the clerk of the scales Yeah yeah . I know he's only casual staff but he's always on the same always Yeah. the same job. But yeah, clerk of the scales yeah. What do you reckon. Ted or the clerk of the scales? Yeah. Not Yeah what do you reckon? Ted or clerk of the scales? I I think y yes I think this is sensible. Er if we can put people in positions where we know they're always gonna be there a as a permanent fixture a as part and parcel of their job. So whoever is clerk of the scales bend to his The poi point about him is he's a he's always based in the same place. Absolutely, yeah yeah. Right and and he got a radio Yes. so he's in touch with erm everybody because Yeah. he's got he's got the main radio hasn't he? Yeah. Erm so he can be a a point to the erm what am I looking for? Well really w w we're to the of the course. We merely put the onus on him don't we to say, Right if an incident should occur it gives you responsibility whether you delegate somebody to assist you to make sure that all that area, the jockeys rooms and Yeah. e everything . Is that all ? Erm i it it will be covered but free to do it though cos he isn't ? Mm. I don't know whether he might be a bit funny about it. I don't know whether it would be a bit better having someone like Ted? You know do you know I know what you mean. Do you know what I'm getting at? yeah. The on the only thing is sometimes if you a if you ask some of these people to do these things I know it's not a lot of responsibility but do you reckon it goes to his head? Yeah oh yeah I know I know what you're saying. as it is. He's the only other sort of like Erm. static one there isn't he? You see now all that was left before to the office staff. Cos the offices were down there It was all adjoining wasn't it? you see. So it was all you won't find it in here because as erm Robin said, the office staff are there, that'll be the central position where everything's happening and they will make sure that the area's clear. But now that we've changed the thing we've got to this is something we've got to add into it Yeah. the fact that the offices are no longer there but somebody's gonna have to make sure that all that block is cleared and the only person permanent fixture is clerk of the scales as you quite rightly said. Yeah. We'll do it as clerk of the scales and er we'll inform him that that's on you know one Yeah. of his duties as clerk of the scales and we'll have a notice put next to him as well about the procedure Yeah. and give him a copy of all his Oh yes yes yeah yeah. Now he he will see that the whole of that block is cleared. Not here. Where would they be evacuated to? To the the paddock? The everybody evacuates to the paddock area behind the main stand. Yeah. Er after deliberate first we wondered whether they ought to go through onto the racecourse and then we decided no probably the best place for them would be round the back of the main stand. Mm. Erm now whether in by doing this virtually the safes spot but it's the easiest spot to disperse them from and it's the easiest spot to get them to Yeah. the if there's a a large number of people. Er they're easily shepherded there because there's no obstructions. If they're going through the course they've got to cross the course, they've got to cross the fences. Yeah. That could create a problem. Erm if we're gonna move them out to the back there there's firm standing f to get them out there, the firm would get there without any great problem and once we got them there we can di disperse them without any great they're not in the way of essential services if they want to come in. Yeah you're not encouraging people to go to where the cars are being parked. Who's it for? down here? orange. Alexandra? She doesn't like orange. orange. She likes I in the campaign is there's a big tank, all, all the stuff were there Did she? they've got, they've got fish for sale. Erm quid. Something like that. Did you go in and see ? What's the matter ? What's the matter with him? what's the matter with him? I thought we had one of those nice er fish tanks We was talking to Carole about Michelle and she said oh Claire , you knows, she could have had hers Yeah. and I remember vaguely seeing it, one of those , the round one Oh, yeah. but it's not the hexagon shaped one, it's round and it's got an orange lid on it and an orange side Do you know what he did, the spotty kid? Went down the road and he came back with a video. What a tape or No Recorder? Hundred and five pound. He spend fifty, said to me I Well if it's any good I mean that's not bad for the for the for, for the other room is it? That's right, yeah. Cos when I was telling about my music she said well you haven't got a video in that room, I said well no not yet I haven't. Mm. So she looked at me as if to say well I haven't got one at all. Chelle She thinks she's persuaded What? Albert now doesn't she? Could you bring in a couple of ashtrays when you come in love? For what? A video. Ooh er. Cos she was saying they were What? watching a film Can you bring a couple of ashtrays in when you come in? Please. and they didn't know which one to watch there was two on at the same time so they picked one and she said if we had a video she said we could be taping the other one and he said how can you do that? He doesn't understand them. So she was telling him. Oh she said he seems quite interested he said I might to town today. Well you can get a new one just two hundred odd can't you? Yeah. And she said no they're only a couple of hundred. Thank you. Thanks Michelle. I thought Sharan a fish tank and cos I bought her a radio cassette for Christmas and she said if I wanna listen to tapes I'll use that. I said oh But I like that half of the room with the chair and the telly Yeah. but I don't know Well I had the chair here didn't I? No the telly here That's right, that's right. I just tried one of those new chocolate bars, Secrets Very thin strands of chocolate Mm. like round and round and round and inside is like er Hello. Hiya yeah yeah oh yeah I've just been down to oh we've only just got in So why am I so lucky and I got you as well? just to make my day just to make my day yeah well, I wasn't sure what those you see, hang on a minute mum so er she said she'll either get the twelve or the one so I went down to see if she was on the twelve o'clock bus, and she wasn't so I thought well I'll try again and Well don't they have cheaper ones there? Well how much ?well I think it is Pat, that's why I asked because Angela was saying some er it was gonna be nine pound and that was with the well I think I'll have to Oh it's like a den of iniquity in here,. Remember that time in Marks when we went to Marks she stood there smoking? She didn't see a dickie bird to me, not a word. Blackpool. Er at Blackpool. Cos Rita swears she's been , I mean I was out with her once and we went in for a coffee and we finished, right, and we're ready to go and I nearly said to her I hate it after you've finished and Jackie lights up and then I have to sit there while she has a fag Mm. and it I go to sometimes. I'm sure she thinks I've put her off from coming up. But we were gonna go to the cemetery couple of weeks ago and it weren't very nice. But we haven't been for months. Got coming up Friday well it means that I you know which I'm gonna have to do anyway Saturday, so I'll take him in and I'll go down early Well Rachael got Carole. She said this morning am I gonna pay for it tomorrow or on Friday Tomorrow! I said Friday. Well she comes up Friday and on Saturday. Well we've booked it now. What's that? Read that red car over there, please, the number plate I thought you were gonna start learning? Nex two weeks when he's seventeen. He's not seventeen yet is he? What? Changed my mind. Eh? spend hundred and five quid on a video. He was gonna buy a car yesterday, hi-fi, video You've got plenty of money stashed away have you Jon? Oh a video cassette recorder. Then you see get one of those with a push down button. It's, it's push button is first, the thing goes up Mm. The thing between? How much guarantee with that? Six months. ? The guarantee ran out what colour is it, silver? Big one? Big one? that brush, the brush Yeah that's with the, it's,do doesn't come with the said that was two ninety nine for the brush and one ninety nine for It was freezing in that car today, he kept opening the window. You should take a coat. He, he leaves his coat on see right and I don't with a coat so he opens his window cos he's hot, I'm freezing. Say excuse me shut the window. I and I couldn't believe it I actually did it right. You've gotta actually do it right on your test. This girl, Anne, yesterday she said she clipped the kerb and and said as long as erm you have another He said you probably need another lesson to brush up on your She clipped a kerb. They usually judge the parking She she passed that and she ha he said that just have another lesson on your your test and you'll be alright. He passed her, and he was known for being crappy. Do you know the Highway Code? No. Mind you all the questions he's asked me yesterday I answered. I could have done that . Nothing else, just the Highway Code. You could have been driving I thought I knew it but there were some of the things in there and I just didn't expect them to ask me, and it wasn't in the book like. He asked me about erm if you broke down on a motorway where would you stop. I said well on the hard shoulder, I said, you can't stop nowhere else . So then he said to me how would you I said so he went yes, I said and and he said and how would you put it back, I said Well what if you haven't got one? I said he said, I said well I haven't got one anyway so it don't matter. Yeah but they're not gonna say that at my test, if you haven't got one it don't matter. You'd better start learning that Highway Code. I, he asked me the one, you know, we were on about this morning, the only one we looked at, fifty miles an hour and he asked me that one and I knew it . It was the only one I knew this morning like, so fifty miles an hour he said to me He said to me, he said to me turn left at the roundabout there was only one that was marked on the floor, only one an actual erm roundabout with concrete and I drove straight over it Well didn't you see the sign for it? There was a sign but it was and it was just cracked so cars behind me were just driving over it and nobody could, you can't see it. She killed three pedestrians but she's alright. Said if I wasn't awake I'm well and bloody truly awake now. What? I said if I wasn't awake I'm well and truly awake now. I hear you got up at one. Ah! Right Jon? Yeah. Come on then. I ended up and I stood there den of iniquity in here, with the three of them, and luckily she wasn't paying attention, she went on to something else and they all looked at me and burst out laughing. Those two are laughing, they don't know what they're laughing about. a fish tank ? Yeah I was coming up now I should think, she told Claire that she'd bought one and Claire said oh she could have had this so I said oh I said ? that's er one of those upright ones in there she said yeah I thought Claire might be interested in that and so I was thinking it was like the ones we've seen but it's not, it's completely round and it's on erm like a stand like that, you know, it's an upright It looks nice when, you know, when it's lit up. It's alright but I don't like the orange on it. She bought it for Shaun. It was a wedding present actually but she said he don't bother with it, it's behind a chair now, the fish are still in it but it's stuck behind a chair. Well if she wants if she wants to get rid of it ask her how much she wants for it. Well ask Carole to ask her, if she, she wants to get rid of it how much she wants for it. Cos the st er you could, you might be able to take the stand cos it's gotta be pretty er hefty. I don't know if she's got cold water or tropical Don't make any difference. Has she got a pump in it? Oh, I dunno. Suggest we go and assist this lady. See we er we tried to get and it was about ten to twelve so I thought, I thought Carole wasn't coming till the next bus so I'd go down and pick her up. go down and meet the bus so we're sat there now ten past eleven and I thought I hope we haven't missed it now and she's walked up, she's standing out the door cos I'd locked the door. I said we'd better go home and check and so we drove down to and as I got there, so the bus comes up, so it looked pretty but I thought well I'd better check so I followed it back up and nobody got off it and So you clocked twenty mile just following empty buses. So I turned round then and said right said to Sharan I'll drop you off at the house and I said when she's ready I'll walk up to the shop. So I said I'd better make sure she's in, so Sharan knocks on the door, no answer. I said oh I hope she hasn't got another bus so Sharan said I think there is two buses cos whenever I meet mum it's always a little blue bus and this was a big orange I said well we'll call at the shop I said and if erm not we'll have to go home. So as we were going along she was just going into the paper shop and she was on her way up to the one o'clock bus, so I called in to see Jackie and had a coffee and then we come home. Oh. I said we've gotta be home before Michelle cos I had the key, for some reason I put it in my pocket No. Righto. It is. I can read in my bedroom when I can't sleep I don't think that she wants anything for it Yes she does cos she keeps saying to me oh when you have that bloody tank she keeps nagging and nagging to have it. The fish as well? I don't want it cos I've got er Yeah. goldfish the fish but What are they, cold water? It's just like Michelle's with er one pump in there. Does it have a light ? There's a, there's a light you've gotta plug, switch for the light So it's actually in with the tank is it? Mm. Yeah. Yeah. She tried to give it to me Cos I was telling her that you bought one she said oh why didn't you tell her, she could have had mine. The thing is that in my bedroom It was sat behind the settee in a corner. I haven't seen it for about two months. Yeah. I remember seeing it when we went to that party, and I know, cos it would have been lit up I wonder where she got it. I don't know. They're all bigger than yours though. and like when he cleans them, all he does is change like that pump thing and wipe the glass. Well he does that so often. And like when he cle does the water he just changes half of it and you know keeps half in and just wipes the glass, just wipes the glass off. Because he said the water he said is cleaned cos it all goes in that pump thing Yeah. it's the glass you've gotta wipe so that's all he does. Oh well might get it after all. Yeah. and put the thing in with it. Mm you'll have to as well. There's a plug in the garage but I ain't going in the garage. Turkey. What? Turkey. Turkey? The first time I ever got it I what do you want me to do and he said right run across there and I'd run now punch it, and I'd be punching the you'd be jumping and turning round, I couldn't get the right one , and finally punch it and the would be coming, said quick hit that and I was getting all sort of on it now. I'm quite good at that bit now She has at least an hour a day on it. And when I didn't even look in this morning, I just, I wasn't Are you on that Sega! I went in to see the cats and then I swept up all the mess She sees she sees to the cats and then she stays in the see you've gotta keep him company It's a bit pongy in there at the moment. You can you've got as well have you? It's a telephone number actually. I know. Blind or what. So tell me more about this job in er Manchester. I told you about it . You told me nothing. I have! I dunno what you're on about! Oh when I come in she said will you miss me when I go to Manchester. I, didn't I tell him ? Yeah, yeah but tell us But we don't know any details yet. Yeah. Is this true? Well she could stop there couldn't she if she wanted to. Er they were thinking of coming back on Sunday I thought he was on two days. Look if I've gotta tell you that one more time now I'm gonna scream! That was only that one week Oh that's the one week was it? back on the On the Sunday because they're going back Friday right after new year's day that is given the Thursday and Friday off so now he's a full week except for Thursday when he's in college. God! Put it down to age Michelle. Age? I've told him four times. Well I thought he was on two days. Well. Thought he was on two days four times. Well you know what thought did don't you? Well I thought he was on eight days then. You hungry? No. Good cos you ain't getting nothing here. My favourite, my favourite niece can have some though. Where were you then when Carole was walking up the street? I didn't see you. In the shop. how long have we been here? Give me the, the lighter. Thank you. Well if you want to go, go help yourself. She even knows the music now. When I went to Asdas on the first day when he was telling me about erm sales, loads of people erm Well he's to isn't he? one he's got now is that one car, and he had another car driving one didn't he? Yeah, the Grand Prix, that was rubbish, that Grand Prix . Especially compared to the one. Mm. I thought that was harder though cos you had to keep changing I had it on automatic Yeah well I didn't know you could change gear I just thought it was automatic. You don't. That's why that's why when you see his name up on the, the list, he, he won't sell. But he finds out all these things but he doesn't tell you and you keep getting killed and you think I wonder if I could do it Mm. and until you see him doing it ooh I said you never told me that did you? And he oh that's, that's a free life for them, you punch it and it's the ghost that kills him, you can't get away from the ghost. Can if you run like hell. He was only saying to me Yeah but last night and it put me right up er it put me right up Where you've gotta get underneath them. and I said there's not enough room to run. That's when I switch it off. I tell him I can have the red ball if he straight into right and keep pushing your finger on it and er he'll go under. It says in the book see erm to pr press the down button and then across so that's the down button, you know Well I thought you had to get a certain amount Er well in the book it doesn't say it and I tried it and under the give that a little bit more room,can get back under by just moving What have you got to eat then? Go and have a look then. It's as simple as that. I've had a back for a, since Sunday. You don't usually have him Friday do you? It's Thursday tomorrow erm his mother's going out tonight, some thing so she's out What? Eh? Where? She should be able to do that that Sunday you have him Mich. Ah yeah but She works does she? Oh. Bloody hell Dad. What? Doesn't matter. Good. Nineteen. Ought to do it. Ooh! Sixteen. Ooh! Jono Jon. Is it twenty? Afraid it is. Ooh yes! Sixteen thirty, forty one.? Hundred and forty Hundred and forty left. Treble twenty. Ooh And the tops! Ooh thirty eighty scored. Jono Four O three thirty eight Oh God!four O three thirty eight Hey these look good on my darts. fit Just get out of my way. Yes. Yes! Sixty. Jono now Jon warm squash What's up, cold is it? Yeah. Out the kettle Feel that. That is cold. Must be like the I've seen it You didn't have to tip it all out. Oh, well I have. Now be sensible Jon. Looks like Ooh that's too hot. you're not supposed to eat it warm. Aha aha Aha Aha Aha Aha All gone! All ah Gone. Gone. Say ma ma mum Ma ma ma ma Banana na na Duck Say ba ba Say ba ba and dog dog with the dog What? dog dog say dog dog Ba ba Say quack quack Oh! Oh Ah! come back in a week. Mummy Funny our meeting innit? Oh she Will you be able to do it Ah! Ah Tell me tell me want a biscuit? Want a biscuit? Do you want a biscuit? Do you want a biscuit! Do you want a smack! Do you want a snog! coffee? Eh? Not yet. make me a coffee Rach, No way Dad have we got a biscuit ? The Nice? Yeah Yeah. Oh There's only four in it. What? Four in it. I only bought them yesterday. yesterday. What? Last night? Yeah. It's thick, It don't fit. It'll fit in your mouth. Don't. Here. Oh! See. Mum Two sugars please dear Mum Two sugars please dear yeah Mum No There's none left, Becky had the last one. Who drank my coffee? Would you like or what? Mum mum mum A big what? Mum A big what? Oh when the saints go marching in oh when the saints go marching in I'm gonna when the saints go marching in You going down the shops then? I'm not. You are! I'm not. You're going down I'm not I'm not I'm not. Don't back on to me now before I start I'm not, I'm not I am not messing I'm not. You are. Yes we have. We don't want them yet. Well they're coming up. Go and see daddy, come on. Shall we go and see Max? Did you? Shall we go and see Tom? Oh I expect she'll go in the paper shop won't you Claire? I've gotta go in there anyway. There you are see she's going in the paper shop. Oh aye. This one. This one mum What? There. Which what? The The one that you bought her for Christmas. What? mum What? Well I suppose so. Oh. Oh I was just looking for that. Mum mum mum mum So how come she's coming mummy What ? Yeah. Twelve. Twelve. No take and then bring back the She did say the didn't she? she only give you twenty, Mummy Mum She's got a new tennis ball. A great ball and she's got a milk shake and look look A tennis ball. mum mum Mm? I've got a straw Mm. Sit, lay down. Forty five minutes a side is it Jon? Yeah. So I can do a tape C hey, come down Mum it's come back. Don't have to start taping cos it's on now. Mum. It's on now. Is it? Mum Yeah. Mum. Max, over here now. Come here. Mum. Hey! Max! Drop drop and you'll have to tell the Chinese kids that you went to feed ducks Ah! Yeah Yeah. again. No. is she? No she's alright now. The other day is she, she been sick and she been I can see why the other ones couldn't know what you were saying. What? The other one wouldn't know what you were saying. Sorry? Sorry? It's only c I go down and he answers the door, I say Jim! And yet he can watch the telly and he reads the newspaper and yet you don't, he can't understand English but he'd be watching this right and it is ha laugh so something must be funny but he dunno what's happening. It's a bit like us watching a what's name film with the words up, but only without the words, it's like us watching that, to him. Mum Mm? No it's just the clock alright? Yeah. And then we go Yeah! You're excited aren't you? You're excited aren't you? Aren't you? And if you're good tonight while you're upstairs they can come again. Can't they? Jon? Yeah. What? They can come again if she's, they're good upstairs see. As long as they, long as Rachael is good Jon make a cup of coffee. Max, go and lie down. Naked Gun Two and a Half well that Naked Gun is awful, it's a stupid comedy Yeah. Mum mum What did you do then? Mummy What did you do? Mum Tell Uncle Jon make coffee Do you like coffee? Mum I'm walking upstairs do you find that I open my sister's bedroom door and there's three Chinese girls, there you go, it's on already I know right, the lights are off, mummy's gonna take over, okay? Okay. Are you having fun? Yeah. Gee! Eh Rach Jon about seven o'clock Oh careful. at seven o'clock can you bring me a sandwich up? Make it up? No they're made on a plate in the thing Oh. a sandwich Mum mum mum Ready then? Yeah. be back no I for the moment. Jon I've put the kettle on. coffee. You put the kettle on Rach no? Oh I put the kettle see. . What? I'm cold. I've got the heating on, the water on, I've just turned the fire up I used to like the old Super Ted better than this. He doesn't wanna lose me Oh! He said to me last night he said he said it's just the fact of you're not coming in. You wanna tell him the reason why you left. Sunday, just told him I was going Yeah but you told him cos of Well it wasn't just that, he was I mean he ti if, say I wanted to work Friday or Saturday or whenever It'd be better if you were working the Monday and Tu and have Yeah. No but he don't work nobody works Monday and Tuesdays normally see. So if erm I wanted to work Friday or Saturday or if my mother wants to go I gotta to swap with Gaynor, now Gaynor doesn't like working Fridays and Saturdays see, so you don't like to swap cos you know she hates it. Ta Sunday. Max stop it! work Sunday and Tuesday but he doesn't have C come here. anybody then he wants me to the Thursday and I said yeah that's alright. Has Gaynor finished now? Not now. Come on Max, fetch you It's my ball. It's your ball is it? Sunday and Saturday I, I think it's Yes I dunno who they'll get because I can honestly say Sunday nobody come in and said oh I wouldn't mind doi being here Ta. On the weekend like? Yeah. So it could be, it will be hard to get someone. Have you got another tennis ball? coffee no sugar eh Tone? Oh aye. One sugar for me da, not two . You're not having one. I am. And tea for yourself. Tea for me and one sugar. Oh God Ah you're not supposed to do that to them, you've gotta bowl it to him and he'll bowl it back to you. Yeah! The dog? Yeah. Tell him off. He'd say you play catch. The dog? Show Tony how you play now you roll it to him see and he'll keep, oh he bowled it back! Come on then dog Roll it back. play with him now, he plays better than you. Come on then. Drop it! Drop. Drop. Bring it back. He didn't roll it back Roll it back. Roll it back. It's cos it's new and he's grinding it. You daft scrounging Oh sit down Lock him up under the stairs. Yes Chuck him in that cupboard out the back. Sharan had er Jon the other day. Another one. The dog is licking up the Oh don't be a pig. What did you buy yesterday Miche? Yeah last night. When you went up to the shop. No last night. She come in, she was alright when she come in and she was just speaking as usual, she went up to bed was crying was she? Yeah Yeah. She thinks she's not wanted doesn't she? Then she keeps saying to don't try and put me off. Well I think she, I don't think she erm has thought it through. She hasn't thought it through. She thinks it's all gonna be roses . She's she's forgetting about the bills and But she went out, she, she thinks managing on her own. she's gonna She's still allowed and as well. She is very silent and shifty at times. Yes she is. What about the dog catching the ball. She hit me over the head And all she's done like is just and you can't say no. If she does though mind she'll try harder next year. I said that to her and she said yes she said I can go, I'm she said. as well as people putting ideas into her head. Yeah. I can understand why she works in a hotel but I mean why not in Cardiff or something like that? Well not only that she said if I don't get this job she said I'm gonna Ah you cheeky thing! You've done that. Ready? That's it. Oh don't be so rude Jon. Give it back. Drop. Drop. Drop. Back back bring it back. the soap powder? Yeah. Look at him you kick his head and he And if someone's going down the shop He said I thought you'd say Sit down Max Max Max sit down sit. Lie down. Lie down, lie down,lie down Roll over. Roll over roll over roll over Bring it back. Bring it back. Max roll it back roll it back You play with him Rachel he does it for you. Roll it back. Drop it Max! Drop it. Drop it. Stop playing with him. Roll over. No you want him up, up! Up. Up. That's better, roll over. Up come here Max Walkies Don't look at me. Tony said it. Sit. Max sit down. Rachael take those things off Give them here Rach Let me have one Rach. No Max will play with you look. Sit. Ta. about six. Carole, Carole I said I'd come down again tomorrow night and come up the house for an hour er take him up the Mum shall we take the Yeah. Yeah. Yeah? In an hour. No they'll be having theirs before they come. So you'll have to have yours before they come. Say you want a Chinese Rach. No. Just have some ham. I was gonna get a good film for tonight but I didn't have my card Well she give me that one the other night Well she won't let me. What film? Naked Gun Two and a Half. Oh God. We had , have you seen that? That's a good film. Te Terminator Two we wanna watch innit? What's it about then? Oh I'm thinking of Judgment Day you're thinking of. my father said that was shit. What? Silence of the Lambs. and I told him the ones to see. He said Jackanory was It was good. It was well put together but It was better than I'd thought it'd be. Jodi Foster's in it wasn't she? That's me! Too right it is, Monday Michelle? Don't remind me please. And my And my birthday Saturday. Rachael Rachael Rach For Sale soon to come out. They got eight copies of them video shop Rach Ghost was the same mind wasn't it? Aye but they've got it now, there's about eight copies out on the, all on the shelf gathering dust. is the best, the least expensive isn't it? Yeah. In the shop, it's only one pound fifty for a, a new release video shop. And it's a pound for the older ones. Mum. Have you been to school today? They're not in yet. Been to playgroup today, they're doing it Wednesdays as well now. Are they? Can you wait to go to nursery school Rach? She can't wait to go to school now, she What? What? Yeah that's the baby ones Yeah I could do with a good laugh, go on. some sandwiches is it? Yeah. And you can have a picnic upstairs. On your own? I'm going upstairs and picnic. picnic is it? On your own? squash. picnic upstairs a party upstairs right and say no, no adults allowed. It's only kids, innit? And you can use the tea set. No. Ooh ! Look what's this called? The dog. You know this don't you? It's your favourite. What's his name? George. George. Woof, it's called Woof. What's his name? Can you remember? Er Eric the Dog Eric the Dog, yeah, yeah. It's called Woof. He's a clever dog isn't he? Good actor though isn't he, the dog? Your favourite Did you have erm the other night? Yeah we had Oh. Yeah he said to me He's gone back today and he's house in Blackpool. He cried for put him on the bed, couldn't do no college work so I just went to bed and left him. had him out and then when she brought him back he wouldn't stop crying. I disagree. Disagree with what? pain in the arse. Look after him for nothing? Mm Ah how can you say that? How could she say that dog? I can always take Ma forget about Max in his place. You've got no chance. Yeah we'll swap. Compliment Jon No me and Sharan get on alright. Like a house on fire. used to have her before they erm, before Sharan wants a good punch in the face doesn't she? I've never had a row with Sharan. Have I? I've never rowed with Sharan I can wind her up just like that Oh aye you can wind her up The thing is that but she knows how to take me Sharan do but some people, no, some people she dunno and you ask her a question And she answers you I said don't be so bitchy or something wasn't it? So like when I said that she knew that I was teasing her when I said in, in that tone of voice. Jon Well she wants to get a flat does she? She's been talking about it for ye the past year. She'll fall on her she will. Thing is I know she's not I can't even afford to go in a flat myself and I Take her with a pinch of salt. I don't pay no board, nothing, and I couldn't afford to bloody move out. Yeah but I mean if I get it all the time I don't think she's, she's to me she's on about erm getting a flat , she's not working, she's got no money saved behind her But she kn she knew what Cos she hasn't she hasn't got one single bit of furniture Mm. She haven't she give that away I mean, I mean she's have her bedroom stuff, yes, but I mean She wouldn't, my mother told her she's not allowed to take the bed. Oh well. Why? Because she said if any of you move out she said unless you move into a but I, she said you, I got, the only things I can take are, is the , a chest of drawers I'd take my wardrobe Take the wallpaper and all. Yeah but I mean in a way you can understand I mean I mean well in their house they've got two bedrooms Yeah but say my mother moves into er another house yeah. But if my mother moved to another house see she couldn't afford to refurnish Mum That's why she they moved out Mum Oh right. Mum. and they Mum, mummy, mum, mummy And they can have a picnic? You can have a picnic upstairs We'll make a picnic before they come, and then about seven o'clock I'll take it up to you. Oh. It's good that is. Isn't it? It's cos they don't go out see and when they do go out I remember the first time I took them down the park, they were like monkeys Mm especially on the England's away. Oh aye England's away. Right. Will you? I'd love to go ice skating I hope you break your God damned leg. leg is plaster The last time I went ice skating I was pregnant, but I didn't know. Oh Last time I went , there was six of us right, three boys and three girls right, never ever again I'd do that with a big gang because Well when we went there was Phyllis, Julie,and me and I was in the middle of because I'd never been on ice skates before, I'd been roller skating holding each side of them right, and they let me go and I just went and I was going down and I went bang right on the bloody side . And these bloody boys who were supposed to come and help you if you got, they're whizzing round and they're I fell a d do you remember we went before and I fell and I just sat there and I couldn't, they, this erm woman and this man come to help me up and I couldn't stop laughing, they couldn't get me up. There's a gang of us going, all girls. A gang Oh Jon I'll give you anything you want my darling. Fine. Someone's at the door! It's Who's for coffee ? Please. Michelle cup. Michelle, cup of tea? No thank you. Can Tony have one? You can have one if you want one. Hello Oh hello Mum if Prince is sick after it's Carole's fault. He's been licking up fag ash. I dropped the ashtray and he started licking it. No six o'clock he said Hey Jon I hope you, I hope you realize that I'm having that twenty five quid. next week, I've made arrangements. No I'll keep it for when I have my money and I'll go down to Cardiff and spend it the bloody lot. I know she can't get ticket, do you know where to get them from? No just, I,they're scarce they're scarce for some reason. They're only allocating so many committee men and all that. Oh! They were coming over in bloody gangs, right, there was the little ducks, you know the ones with green heads, so we were giving them bread and then all of a sudden the other side Gangs, yes there's a big gang of these big black and white things coming over so we're giving the and then a big gang from this side'd come over and then all the white swans'd come over, god! And they were all there was one behind us, right,in the water and he kept going quack so I thought yeah and then to feed the others,quack oh dear! We'd been feeding him from the hand like, oh. And she went up and she said er ah look at those little ducks she said, so she goes up on the step now, goes to this Give me then pen, hey give me the pen. little duck who was out the water and there's a piece of bread, honest to god this big thing come running over like this and she come running down to me like mummy a big duck's coming after you, they're coming They're quackers about you, that's why Rach. What? They're quackers about you. See them every Friday don't we? or what? I haven't looked in yet. And you got away from him then didn't you? Thank you. It's a lot innit? Twenty four pound twenty four pound? Yeah, Twenty four pound? Yes And if you want Eh she's bald Change the subject subject on money. She is, look. old ladies have gone bald pigtails. Yeah but she's got more hair than what I got in the front. Oh well, Rachael What? Come on. What? Come on. One, two, three, four ah! tonight,membership card. Put it back. I told her but she wouldn't let her She said got to have a card now. You can if you've got to have a card. We've often seen her in the library, her. I'm skint. spend your money before you've got it. I was walking past That's what you do innit? Oh aye yeah. bank. No I say Jim, I want a Chinese, I'll write you a cheque but don't cash it tonight please . Oh there's people go down the Chinese with letters and the boy'll give it to me erm can I have so and so, so and so, so and so, so and so, I'll pay you tomorrow when get paid. you know, for the regulars. Oh yeah it's then is it? Jim, can we pay you next month thank you. No I bloody ain't. Jon Jon Forty five minutes so how long we been here? About forty five minutes innit? Yeah. No it's longer than that, bit longer than that. It's easy innit? Oh well Will you shut up ? What's happening in this? I've miss I've missed for the last few weeks. ? You comfy Rach? And you Becky Button. You was making that tape yesterday isn't it? And you were doing exactly the same thing weren't you? sticker for the window Rachael you've got enough talents haven't you? Do you love me Rach? Do you love me Rachael ? Rach do you love me? Do you love mummy? Do you love nanny? No! You've upset her. She loves Prince . Where's her sweets Don't you love me? Don't you love me? Eh? Do you love me? Do you love me? Eh? Do you love me? Do you want anything Tone? Nice things for Ian Have you got a ? Has she said she loves you yet Je Mum,mum Oh it's noisy as well. Helps baby learn about noise and movement Eh? Ah it's nice that phone innit? Mm. Do you love me now? When you give me my two quid back. Give me a nice kiss, what two quid? Two you had off me for the fete. Haven't got somewhere. Oh sorry! my four quid that is. Do you love me ? Why? I love you so much. got to be a reason behind this question. Well give me a kiss. Why? Why? All of a sudden. Cos I want to. Why all of a sudden? How much commission you getting? I dunno, how much do you get to sell all this stuff You don't get any cos you, it's not Ah! Ah! I had a dream last night my watch fell apart. It did. All them black squiggly lines fell off and the er the front fell off and this little round bit fell off. Carole give me a kiss please. Yeah. Come on then. What are you after? He's not coming back in it now Ben is he? Well he's in this one. Is he? Has he been in it? No haven't seen him yet. Oh you taped Neighbours did you? No I watched the end of Neighbours. And watch watch Neighbours Watch the end of Neighbours I watched Home and Away, then I watched Mind the dog, ooh When was the last time you seen the five forty news? They're nice aren't they mum? Good morning. Good morning. Now, what can I do for this lady this morning? My gets thicker every time I come . Ah you see, that's when you're over twenty one, that's what happens. It gets bigger and bigger and bigger all the . it's Doctor that's treating me but she can't see me till Monday so Oh That's . A long wait. Oh, that's nothing. That's nothing. No? Oh, it's getting, don't come in the school holidays. Aha. How is it? Cos it's pandemonium. Aha. It's er full of, full of youngsters. Not obeying you. Now just because of What've you been doing? Doctor gave me er I can't, I can hardly walk I've got a terrible sore back. Your back been giving you trouble again? Oh terrible. Right. If I get up out a chair it's murder. Right. And you say the tablets She gave me have helped? No. I've be I was using what do you call it?tablet but I'd something . Aha. Not making much difference. No. No. Right. Let's see if we can get you something to make life a bit easier for you. Would the ph physiotherapy help it at all? It might. I was just thinking about that just now, whether Aye. we should get you down there. Cos it helped me the last time. Was it the Monklands? You ? Pardon? Was it the Monklands you were in, when you dislocated Yes. it? Monklands. Wasn't it? But I was at Strathclyde for physiotherapy the last time. Yes. That's right. The Mm. I remember you were, you were in, you'd dislocated your hip, dislocated your hip, Three times. twice. Three times was it? Three times. Good. Mm. Still on Road? Pardon? Still on Road? I'm a wee bit Six I'm a wee bit deaf. Six. A wee bit. I've been a bit dull of hearing and I haven't got my hearing aid in. Road . Now, I'll write over and we'll get you back, get you some physiotherapy Mrs . Right? I think that would help. Mm. Aye. Fine. Er this is a painkiller. There's nothing else there Aye. except pure and simply a painkiller Aha. to let you get moving about a bit easier. Aye. Okay. Okay. And you'll get word about the physiotherapy. That's fine. Aye. Aye. How are you keeping yourself? Fine. Aye, you're looking great. Ah. There we are now. Now y you get started on that, you'll get a postcard to the house Aye. to go back and get some physiotherapy. Aye. We'll get, get you fit again. Okay . Get you fit for the dancing. . And the Oh the bone. but I don't think I'm ready yet. Oh, I don't think you're ready for that. Aye. before the end of the season we'll have you back. Alright. Right. Right. Okay Mrs . Thank you. Right. Cheerio now. Cheerio. Okay,le let's get started! We're, we're going to conclude now the discussion of the various ways in which, bacteria, in particular er lead to the production of infective disease and really to centre round, centres round the discussion of the pathogenesis, that is the mechanism by which the disease is produced and lunanspach. And I hope to run through today, basically, a set of examples of specific infective positions which show particular virulence factors er manifest themselves in terms of clinical disease. We start with er er a fine and exciting topic for Monday morning the topic of boils and in their finalist form they're shown here as starike. But, the sa the very same organisms responsible for that relatively moderate appearance can also produce blocked er region of Prince Charles, the carbuncle with which in it's most er florid form can break down and produce the series, but really effectively interconnecting . If we sample one of these cavities in which the process is er which produce boils er are going on, almost inevitably we find this organism staphylococcusorius and offspotulates have been clearly fulfilled with organism and this disease most notably by a bunch of of medical students who are subjected to all sorts of tortures by their professor of microbiology back in the nineteen fifties. And over the years it's been possible to identify a number of factors produced by these bacteria that seem to make sense in terms of the pathology and the conditions. Now the pathology is by a chief information and i in fact, the chief information could be provoked merely by the presence of organisms. You will, you will recognise from your immunology that the presence is certainly foreign antigenic materials can lead immediately to, to the acute alternatives. But, notable inside er the material that characterises the boils and abscesses, there is a cell death, both of bacteria and of the both the defending cells and the structural cells. And, to a very large extent tri cell death can be related to the ability of staph orius to produce elicit toxins, toxins which actually leave the cell death and . But the characteristic of this puss forming organism is that the legions it produces are wooled off, that is they're relatively localized. And although the er, the causal relationship is not completely established, it is a very helpful way of remembering that one of the principle distinguishing features of this organism which separates it from other members of the genus staphylococcus it pr it produces this enzyme to coagulate things on and the effects of this enzyme are illustrated here as against the control preparation, you see a clot form due to the action of this enzyme on clotting practice which has been put into this test tube serum. So this is almost certain a virulence factor but is also very useful in differentiating pathogenic species of staphylococci from non-pathogenic species. And, as as you'll be hearing in later er stages of the course there are many non-pathogenic species of staphylococci. It's worth also mentioning, since you saw it in the practical class, that staphylococci in general produce this enzyme catalase all of these er lo thi this is the enzyme which breaks down hydrogen peroxide and detoxifies it. All of these factors together lead us an to recognise as it a puss forming organism which is often recognised by the term hyogenic organism, ability to produce puss in er the form of reactions it initiates. Now I want at least, to intro introduce the possibility in the series of diagrams I'm going to show you in this lecture that we can relate it to the four stages of pathogenesis that we, we outline briefly er, in the last lecture. The first stage being the establishment, the next stage being penetration, the third stage being damage, what actually produces the damage in the disease, and the fourth stage is, if the disease is going to last for any period of time the ability of the organism to persist. I'm going to introduce this abbreviated momentictiture here in the hope that during the course of the lecture I'll be able to add comments about which of these factors lead to which of these results. Er, but if we run out of time and I find we haven't we we we can't fit it all in I'd like you all to attempt to do this for yourselves after er, the lecture is over. Okay? So, establishment for staphylococcusorius is often not an important feature because in the majority of infections we're talking about an endogenous infection, the organism was there in the first place. Penetration in many instances is not related to a property of the organism itself, in most instances it's re related to some form of injury in which the organism is moved from it's normal skin location to a deep tissue location. So we won't mention these factors here, although in in some instances er, these properties are important to talk about for staph orius. The damage, is fairly obvious to see is produced by these two and it's worth pointing out that persistence can be related to this catalase enzyme. Staphylococci have some degree of resistance to killing by phagocytes and yo you should recall that phagocytes er, one of the mechanisms by which phagocytes kill intercellular organisms is the production of reactive oxygen intermediates and catalase is one of the ways that these can detoxified and th there's fairly good evidence that the catalase enzyme enables er,staph orius to persist. Okay. So, that's, that's the first example of a very common condition. Let's move on now to consider a very important type of infection such as meningitis. You recognise by particularly common in children not recognised by the particular posture that they adopt and extended neck, rigid neck due to the inflammation of le , lymphees which I will resist being a reflection of the neck, completely rigidly. It's a disease which, if it a , they're fortunate enough to re , recover from the disease, if it's been severe enough the inflammation may have involved er, some of the cranial nerves, and here we can see a third nerve palsy er as a result of er, the process. If you take a sample er, of ce the cera cereblis fluid during the course of acute bacteria meningitis you will find it's drowning, drowning, not due the fact that it's an organism, but present, being due to the presence of puss cells. This is another biogenical fluid and, in about a third of the cases you will find this, very faintly with them Mm mm. which you can just about see here a in conjunction with the puss cells with which it is busily the life and death, life and death tackle. This organism is the fastidious grand negative rod you saw in the erm practical class innocuous influenzi. And it is a a very important pathogen responsible for about a third of the cases of meningitis in in this country almost exclusively in children. Now, the process we recognise in the pa pathogenesis of meningitis due to this organism is as follows, first of all and then it is able, by, mechanisms not completely described but we could probably involve this transpschycosis er phenomenon that er, I I briefly mentioned last time. First of all, penetrates from the into the bloodstream and then into the cerebral spinal fluid. Now the basis for the pathogenesis is not well enough established for us to expect you to understand the details of how it achieves these processes, but one thing which is remarkably clear is that the organism is a capsule producing organism and that once it gets into the er cerebral spinal fluid that predominately is an acute inflammatory . We do recognise establishment factors, that is adhesions in this part of the process and it is very clear that the capsule is one of the factors which allows the organism to pe , persist because it helps the organism to resist phagocytosis. You'll notice that the damage in this instance is actually the result of the acute inflammatory response, not particularly some form of direct noxious effect of the organism, so the contribution of the host is absolutely critical. Now, the reason we we focus on the capsule as illustrated on the right here is that hymophylus have many different capsular types, but but only one type appears to be associated with meningitis. This type B capsule refers to a particular pulse and has it's so important in the pathogenesis of the capsule that antibodies to it can be used er,ca , er can actually completely prevent the disease and we end up with a capsule vaccine based on the type B pulse . Plus, referencing with the other two organisms which produce meningitis in, in humans it is very prominent that both of these, licea meninigitipitus and staphylococcus are also very prominent capsule mechanisms. Hello! That's like the type. H I for hymopholus influenzi. And that's, that H I is actually the th th H, H I B is the acronym for the vaccine. There's a new vaccine introduced last October which is being er, used for the first time in this country to prevent meningitis in children. Is that just the name of the vaccine? H, well H I B is a, an abbreviation for the strain of hymopholus that produces the infection, but the name of the vaccine the H I B vaccine, yeah. Okay? I should say that a, a lot of this information will be covered again during this course, what I'm trying to do now is to bring together the the themes in a pathogenesis of infection that I introduced last week into the practical context of clinical infections. And to to, to try and illustrate to you why we focus on particular virulence factors for particular organisms. Move on now to to look at an area that's er not frequently er doesn't impinge a great deal on life in this country but it certainly does for travellers and for many people in the developing world. This is the topic of secretory diarrhoea produced by infective agents. This is a dramatic disorder of the small intestine which produces a massive outflow of water electrolytes that can be fatal within a matter of hours after the onset of disease! We recognise two agents which are er, responsible in bacterial causes of this process,th there are many others but these are certainly the most important. choleri, the cholera vacilus and er, an acronym here, ETEC, I wouldn't worry about taking down the full er, er , it actually stands for e entrotoxigenic ecolytes, it's a strain or a group of ecolars that are able to produce this effect. These diseases are common in areas er where an out pouring of water from the individual is squared up with a ou , out pouring of people into the water, then you can appreciate that that transmission is very er, readily promoted under those circumstances. The effects on the, the individual are very dramatic! Dehydration, er can produce death within a matter of fe , er a few hours and and an understanding of the mechanism by which this dehydration leads us into one of the most effective forms of heat treatment er, ever produced. A prominent feature of secretory diarrhoea is that effective and normal bowel in,yo you ca , you can ignore this sign are almost indistinguishable, so despite this dramatic change in the physiology of the small bowel, borthalogically it actually looks quite normal. And you have a normal meconium. Now, the organisms that produce this effect haven't, have this target which is around zero for the choleri , the villi of a small intestine and the both of these organisms have pro prominent adhesion mechanisms. Let's just show you something with that. In an affected small bowel you will see the grey background with these tiny little curved rods present the whole area of the er, the villi is covered by the organisms which are er stuck down effectively by the processes which you ca , you can't really see them in the transmission micrograph, but they are attached to specific receptors on the surface of the entrocite membrane. Once they've got there, the organism really goes no further. Both the cholera organism and the ETEC organism secrete toxins referred to here as C T for cholera toxin and LT for the le Lethane toxin. It is very striking that these toxins are actually almost exactly the same molecule! So that although these are er fairly different relatives in terms of bacteria it's striking that the ETEC organism has been able to acquire in some way almost exactly the same gene that's present in choleri. And, this toxin when released from these tightly organisms disorders the er the physiological activity of the lining cells, the empha cells. The molecular oh we've lost a slide! The molecular basis for this is very well understood and forms one of the important themes in er the effects of e , exotoxin in human cells. This toxin is composed of two components er, of binding components and active component. Binding component binds to specific receptors on the emphacyte and the active component penetrates into the cell and inactivates the controlling mechanism on the production of . And this is the cell that er, is possessed by several other toxins that affect, not just the gut but other parts of the body as well. I should point out that in one of the features of adhesions is that it takes two to tango, so to speak! Where specific adhesions are involved the the , the structures that are, are most commonly associated with a , require a specific receptor for the adhesion reaction to take place and that if the potential host doesn't have specific receptor they're not susceptible to that particular strain of organisms. Okay. Let's move on to look at another fairly dramatic infection which is a case of diphtheria. That, which is er a infection ca characterized by this profuse athema of th the base of the neck, referred to as bull neck if you look inside this child's er pharynx you see this very messy inflammatory process at the back and the whole of the respiratory mucosa is beginning to detach in what's referred to as a pseudo-membrane. In, fatal cases this pseudo- membrane can extend right from the top of the respiratory track here down into bronchi, and you can get these enormous casts of mucrotic material er, starting in the pharynx and working their way right down in the bronchi. It's been known for a very long time that from these cases you can isolate this organism C diphtheria bacterium which you saw in the practical classes and has this distinctive stayed property where er certain granules can be stayed up and also the arrangement of the cells is rather reminiscent of what called Chinese lettering. The picture, the acute picture which you've just seen is virtually exclusively due to the production of a toxin and that toxin produces really a necrotic pharyngitis inflammation of the pharynx associated with necrosis and detachment of what we call the pseudo-membrane. In very severe cases the toxin gets into the blood stream and their paralytic effects toxin i i is to some extent a neuro-toxin, and also there are effects of the heart. So although for the majority of cases that a fatal as a result of diphtheria the fact that , due actually to the pharyngitis and the pseudo- membrane obstructing the respiratory passage. In later stages, the minority of cases may go on to produce these results. Well this is a disease due to another exotoxin which, in practical terms is of importance to you because it's the basis for a test for identifying the . The toxin may or may not be present in strains of er C diphtheria and this is just an immunological test so I wo won't explain it in detail but what you can see is a a strip of er, filter paper which has been bathed in anti-toxin and growth of various different strains of the organism erm which, some of which do produce the toxin you can see lines of precipitation here and some of which don't produce the toxin. And that test has to be applied to es each eyslate because this toxin is not part of the genome of Cherani bacteria diphtheria, it's actually a farged mediated toxin, it's actually encoded for by a bacteria farged. So when What's paresis then? Paresis, paralysis. Oh! I thought you were doing neuro-sciences course? The as I said this, this is required for identification for the organism, but the to the toxin has been recognised for a very, very long time and right from er, the early days the possibility of inactivating the biological properties of a toxin while retaining their immunological properties has been attractive to people seeking to prevent these diseases. And, if you treat this toxin with something like formaldehyde or ethanol, you end up by inactivating it's toxic properties and you end up with what, what we call a toxoid, something that retains immunological properties, it's able to stimulate specific immunity to the toxin but it doesn't have any of the toxic effects and we end up with this toxoid vaccine against diphtheria. And all of you, I would expect, have received the toxoid vaccine against diphtheria. Curiously it has led effectively to the irradification of Cherani bacterium diphtheria from the circulating respiratory flora in this country and the reasons for that are are quite obscure! Another im prominent toxoid vaccine which you should all have received and be regularly receiving boosters for is the tetanus vaccine, and really, a very similar situation pertains here, that the toxin is so important in the pathogenesis of disease, tetanus, that simply immunity to that one factor can lead to immunity er to the disease as a whole. So, I've gone through a series of examples of exotoxins I want to just er, as far as is possible summarize the general properties of exotoxins. First thing to be said about them is that they're all proteins covering a very wide range of molecular weights between three and three hundred kilobocals three thousand to three hundred thousand bocals. And they have very specific impacts because they all result their effective result on an interaction with a specific receptor and er an activity I would express on that receptor or as a result of the er erm the uptake of the toxins. Consequently,. As I've indicated before you can divide them into patha and physiological effects and membrane damage more specifically than what I said before membrane damage is the i i is a particularly important thing. Your patha and physiological toxins are often sub-unital structure and they make the most, the momegictiture most widely used is an A plus B sub-unit structure. The B is a receptor and A is often, although by no means always, an enzyme and in the case the cholera toxin rotusis toxin and several other erm pseudo-membrane toxins and several others, diphtheria toxin they have the specific A viral I think they put the group onto a target molecule and disorder itself . The membrane doesn't use toxins like the lytic toxins that staphylococcusorius expressed er they're often detected by their immunelytic properties, see the in the er, in the bacterial passage. I'm sure you've experienced in many instances here, the effect of lytic toxins in er a boil or some some other unpleasant minor lesion! Gonna go on now to talk about a severe condition which may start out that with a minor skin rash like this, this is called a petechial skin rash they later progress to rather more generalised rash and in it's most severe form it's mucrotic effects on the skin and er, obviously a lethal outcome! This type of picture is almost exclusively related to the isolation of grand negative organisms from the blood, these may be phacili or cocci, doesn't really make any er, any difference. It's the grand nega negative cell wall structure that seems to matter. And we now know that these ghastly effects are the results of what we referred to in the last lecture endotoxins. You will hear in considerable detail in a later lecture about how septic shock and endotoxin work. At this stage it's worth remarking that wa there are perhaps three prominent features of endotoxin effects first of all, they promote physcocine release and th the the two pro , prominent phsycocines affected are I O one, Interlooping one and TMF, tumourmacrosis factor which I hope you heard about in the immunology course. I O one is the molecule most closely associated with the mi , the effects of lodose endotoxin and that is fever I O one er, when released into the blood sys bloodstream affects the hypothalamus and th i one of the principle reasons why infective conditions lead to fever. In more severe situations there's uncontrolled continent acto activation and uncontrolled clotting factor, activation and it's really that last feature that's particularly responsible for the er er ghastly skin disease you saw i in the last sla , in the previous slide! Now the eff the endotoxin as I've is almost exclusively associated with the grand negative cell wall. And again in abbreviated form that, I just want to take you through the molecular basis for endotoxin action. Here is the positive wall with it's large er expansive petroglycan grand negative with an inner and an outer membrane, and the petroglycan sandwiched in between. Here we have a diagram of a grand negative organism with it's inner membrane and outer membrane illustrated here. Very easy to reproduce endotoxic shock in in experimental animals and er, it was found fairly early on that the effects, er the endotoxic effects were almost exclusively associated with the outer membrane. And detailed chemical strains of the outer membrane show that it has a slightly different structure from normal unit membranes. Expand that up, you'll end up with a normal inner leaflet to the membrane, a phospholipids but the outer the , er the outer layer is almost exclusively composed of this stuff, lycropolysacrulite I mentioned this in an earlier lecture but we need to go into in a little bit more detail . This lycropolysacrulite is can then be broken up into three different sections the internal membrane section is referred as lipid A. Lipids in general are not very antigenic erm er it's interesting to note that lipid A, when it's purified from the other components is almost totally responsible for the toxic amount of any property. The polysacurised component of composed of a four region to which the lipids are attached, and that outer region is er, it extends out into the environment . Now, the importance here is that both of these polysacrulite components are based in general the outer region is highly variable, that's to say that very, er that most of organisms possess a unique outer region to that polysacrulite . And by contrast, the poor region, certainly amongst the grand negative bacilli is very similar across a wide range of different species and this provides a very important opportunity to produce immunity to endotoxin directed against the core and this possibility has recently been exploited by a production of the molecule antibody directed against the core polysacride of the erm er er, of ecoli. So, this has been shown to be effective in moderating the toxic events which occur in grand negative shock. Building on this approach and something which I think you'll see certainly during the course of your your medical studies antibodies directed against tumourler proce , tumourler process factor are now being used to try and interrupt the chain of events at a slightly later stage. So that's that's the endotoxin story. I want now just to summarise and er some of these the features I'm going to point out I've I've already stated so you may may just want to sit back and just take this in. If we compare endo and exotoxins endotoxins are only associated with grand negative organisms whereas exotoxins maybe produced by either grand negative or grand positive. Endotoxins are exclusively cell associated in their production. Exotoxins may also be cell associated, they've, they may not be a sa , they're not a structural component, but, particularly in grand negatives exotoxins er, are released first into the peraplasmic space, the space between the two membranes, and the the actual release into the medium er, may require cell . So,tha they are both cell associated and cell free. Endotoxin from different organisms although it may be of of different potency has essentially the same biological effects. So, a wide variety of different organisms can produce endotoxic shock. But exotoxins from different organisms produce really very different biological effects. Even, even though they may be er,the they may work as a result of different o of the same enzyme activity in some cases the target for that enzyme activity and the receptors that have put it into the specific cells that are targeted lead to really very different biological effects. In general terms endotoxins are a very low potency about point O one of a gram is lethal to one person some exotoxins are incredibly potent, and they're being the, the subject of er a certain amount of er weapons research. The same goes for O one of a gram for example,toxin and it gives you a hundred thousand er as as I've indicated here, there's a, a wide range for the potency. Endotoxins are heat stable, and this is very important when we try to produce materials that are safe for intravenous injection. Whereas, for the most part exotoxins are destroyed by heat into a hundred degrees centigrade. And finally treatment with er formaldehyde or ethanol has no effects on endotoxins but in a number of instances formaldehyde or ethanol will lead to er, the production of toxoid. So, I think you should now have a very clear basis for discriminating between the two sorts of two sorts of toxin. And we can move safely on to another another, and the final really, final topic about the patterns of pathogenesis. Let's move on now, briefly, to consider this disease, tuberculosis. This is a, a normal test x- ray the commonest manifestation of tuberculosis is the disease of des destructive regions in the upper poles of the lungs and pathologically the very nasty destructive lesions er, are appearing in in the area. And in a mi , in a minority of cases you may get a sort of forminant region, this is er small scale, it's perhaps a centimetre apart, across a series of lung lesions containing these little necrotic due to the er the presence of tubercle cila. Although this was this organism, microbacterium tuberculosis, named tuberculosis was discovered back in eighteen eighty we we really understand the pathogenesis of the disease very poorly! What we know for sure is is really outlined here. The organism is in i is inspired into the alveolar spaces and it's taken up by alveolar , the standard er abbreviation for macrophage and, the organism i in contrast to many others which we've sort of er die fairly rapidly after being taken up by these phagocytic cells, says Goodee! That was exactly what I wanted to happen! And it grows very rapidly, within macrophages and after er a period of time is actually disseminated into the circulation. Now, this happens in nearly all er cases o of tuberculosis but, interesting, the vast majority of infections microbacterium tuberculosis are asymptomatic and the reason for that is that after a period of growth and dissemination does not lead to clinical symptoms, cell mediated immunity, C M I, comes into comes into play and you end up with a balance between the macrophages, and fi and M T B, where there's a constant turnover of macrophages dying, and M T B winning out. Excuse me! Hello! Yep? What's the M T B? Microbacterium tuberculosis. Okay. Thank you. You have a balance between the effects of macrophages which have been activated by cell mediator immunity and the lethal effects of microbacterium tuberculosis. In individuals in whom some mediated immunity is not well developed the growth and defemination,de defemination phase may take over altogether. If the C M I doesn't lead to this kind of balance then it can have this sort of effect and get rapidly fatal tuberculosis occurring at the time of the primary infection. But it's believed that the majority of cases of tuberculosis, that we actually see, are so called post-primary tuberculosis where all of this process is taking place asymptomatically and the host is in this state of balance but something else comes along and stresses cell mediated immunity and the control breaks down so that th the organism M T B wins out very dramatically over the, over the macrophages and you end up with this post-primary pattern of tuberculosis. An example of th , of the stress might be the administration of steroids or the occurrence of another disease, most notably, in this day and age of course, aids, would lead to T B coming out in this way. Is this a type of miliary ? Miliary er i it it refers, well you've heard of millet seed and it's it refers to a seeding of many different lesions er, around the body it means the disseminated form of of tuberculosis where the lesions occur all over the place. Mm. You'll hear, you'll hear these things repeated many times again, both in the pathology, and in the microbiology course. So, that's er, really a very different pattern of infections where the virulence factors are not clearly identified. Let me just finish off now by illustrating what leads to the outcome and how a a of a particular infectious condition and the combination of the factors that we think lead to these outcomes. I think, the best analogy I can produce for you is that a a balance in which various factors act on the side of the host and various factors act on the side of the organism, and the outcome is disease and death if the organism wins out and outcome is resistance or recovery if the the host wins out. And we could really, add in for each organism in different weights the significance of each of the factors on each side. So, for example, if we took diphtheria we could say that the toxin was by far the most important and weighty factor, and that if we knock the toxin out then the disease can't occur. And, similarly on the the host side, we could say that antibody was the most important feature. In another example in tuberculosis we could say that the ability of the organism to persist inside macrophages was the most important feature and that effective cell mediated immunity was the most important feature on the host side. So, I hope I've introduced to you the very different styles by which microbes produce disease and indicated the balance of factors involved. some trouble fitting you in. shampoo. Nobody want their head cut off? No? Tom's got Trimazepam. the last time. Pardon? Oh give us peace. There you go. Trimazepam. I'll need to cut your dad's legs off and then he'll be the same size as you. do. Ah you're kidding on. You're kidding on. Right cheerio now. Books are are written by ex-examiners and have a spec have several specimen answers. They have here is an answer is too in an exam. This one's excellent because these are the . Alright yeah. This one erm he sort of tried hard and put a lot in, thinks he should get full marks but he's not going to get very much because he's missed this, he's not answering that properly Yeah. and he said that. But it's very good to see where people go wrong and to er help you get it right, and that one is the one . Is it like that in this one? What's that? My Ah , are showing how people answer different, how they got Erm yes er yeah . How marks. And right, electricity. Okay what's erm the difference between a metal and a non-metal? Erm metal and non-metal. Erm a non-metal is a metal's a solid no? Most metals are solid. Erm can you think of a one metal which isn't a solid at normal temperatures? No . Find it you might find it in a thermometer. Mercury. Right. Right. So solid non-metals . Some of them are solid some of them aren't. Er physical properties of metals. What will metals do? What can metals do very well that non-metals can't do? Erm well they're hard so they can erm make things. Because they're You can make things. Right s you can make things with them solids . Good. They're hard you can make things out of them. Erm a lot of them are shiny. How do you make erm how do you make wire? With metal. Okay. How do you make it with the metal? What do you do with the metal to make wire out of it? Heat it melt it. You don't need to heat it they just there's a bar of it and they pull it. Oh right yeah . Pull it through a tiny hole. stick it through a dye. Mm. So it's if you can pull it out it's ductile. Mm. Have you ever tried hammering any metals? No. Lead or soft metals you can hammer them into shape. Seen anyone beating a car panel it's got Yeah. a dent and they're beating it Yeah. so they're malleable. You can hammer them into shape. Right. They're ductile malleable don't need the proper words you just say they can be pulled out. If you try that with erm a piece of wood, you try to pull it out into a long thin wire it would just break. Try it Yeah. with a piece of china or something like that it'll just break . Right. All metals will stretch out, it'll get thinner ductile. Malleable you can batter it Right. into shape. So those are the some of the physical properties. Have fairly high melting points. Some of them not as high as the non-metals but most of have got to get to a few hundred degrees C before they start . Erm some of the uses of metals. Tell me some. Oh erm, the uses of metals. What actually what erm oh god What could you use metals for? Er anything computers Right right. So you can use them for because of because of it's cos you can draw it out you can make wires out of it. You can shape it into almost anything. You can make very specially shaped for Yeah. almost anything. But there's another another use of metals erm two sticks about say about one's made of wood and one's made of copper. Erm someone's going to heat one end and then hold the other end. Which one would you rather hold? Copper. Wood. Oh! We'll try it. No the wood one. Why? Because wood takes longer to burn, copper would just you would you could you would feel the heat you had if Right. you held the the end. The wood would be the first to burn but you wouldn't feel much. Wouldn't feel anything No. holding the end of the wood. But holding the copper after a few seconds the heat all the heat'd be transmitted through Yeah. to your hands. Conducted it. Mm. So metals are? Conductors. Good conductors of? Go on. Good conductors of what? Good conductors of Well what's it just been conducting? Electricity. Good, that's another one. Good conductors of heat. Heat yeah. And good conductors of electricity. Mm. Or we sometimes just say, good conductors. So what about the insulators the non-conductors? Can you think of any of those? Materials which are very good at stopping electricity, stopping heat getting through. If if a material conducts electricity well, it conducts heat well because it's very there there there they work on the same process. If it's an insulator it stops heat getting through and it'll stop electricity getting through as well. Mm. So can you think of any good insulators? Erm erm Oh oh yes. Erm Erm have you got an ironing board? Yeah. Got to put the iron down on apart from. On plastic. So there's a special little bit that you put the iron down on. Oh metal. Is it metal? I dunno Erm sometimes it's asbestos. Right. Er the plug and the cable going to any electrical appliance. Mm. Erm how does it conduct electricity? What's what's insi what's inside that wire that conducts electricity? A fuse. No, that what's the wire made of inside? Erm no it's not zinc is it? Copper? Okay good copper. It's a metal. Inside there's a metal, but it's not just two bare wires is it? No. So what's wrapped round the bare wires? Erm protector so it won't it doesn't erm it slows it down. Does it slow it down? Cos if you had just if you didn't have the thing erm over the wire it would just burn right through very quickly. So is it you've seen you've wired a plug haven't you? Yeah. Well You've always got something covering the wire haven't you ? Got something covering the wire. What is it? Plastic. Right. So the plastic is there because it's a good insulator. Yeah. If you covered the wire with more metal say you put two pieces of wire spare wire Mm. or wrap some aluminium foil round these to protect them, not going to be much good. No. Aluminium's a good conductor. Yeah. Very good conductor. Erm so plastic is an insulator. Mm. Glass ceramic most of the non-metals are good insulators. Somewhere in be in between are a very interesting group called semiconductors. Have you heard of those? I have yeah. Yep and they're probably nowadays as more important than the conductors. And that's what we use for electronic circuits. So semiconductors are things that sort of conduct and sort of don't. Yeah. Erm In between. they just need a little push to make them go one way or the other so Mm. because of that we can control, we can say turn on turn off whether they let the electricity go through or not. Erm so semiconductors Erm tell me about an electrical circuit, how it works. Well you have if you're doing an electric circuit you've got to have a er a bulb and a switch. Mm. And batteries to g to do the circuit and you can have erm volts in it as well. Okay what are what are volts? Volts erm it's a term used for electricity, Okay. volts. Right, what sort of electricity? Currents. The current of the electricity. Good. Doesn't have to be current but it usually is. Best thing to do is to draw a little picture erm so what does volts measure? The amount of electricity that's going Yeah. It measure the the potential, erm I've got a three volt battery in there, somewhere cos I'm working I'm going to make you hold one end sort of there's the there's the battery, going to make you put one finger on one terminal the other finger your other hand on the other one. Mm. One and half volts. Is that going to kill you? No. No. Erm drive it with erm a hundred and thirty two thousand volts? Yes. Okay. The high voltage Why? What's what's the difference then? Well it's got a higher voltage. Yeah what's what does that mean? Why is that It's going to be? Well it's higher on electricity it'll give me an electric shock. Mhm. How does it do it? It goes through your nervous system. Okay. Into you're arteries Right and your heart. Right. So it'll go through you and it'll paralyze your muscles, so you stop breathing and your heart stops. Mm. And effectively, it's a bit like drowning. Mm. Erm get your heart started again. So that's another good point erm you know what to do if someone's had an electric shock? Don't touch them. Right. Cos they'll still have electricity Okay. on them. You don't touch them, what do you do? Turn off all the mains. Good. Erm get a stick or something Right. Something like a wooden Wood. stick or Yeah. a rope rope and loop him round. Drag him away from the actual Right. mains Okay. And then what do you do? When you've got them away from the mains, what d'ya do with them? Erm god I've done a first aid course. Erm what do you do? Right erm. Could you still touch them if you've pulled them away from the mains and everything? Yeah. Once you're sure you've pulled them away. But as you say, switch off first and then still use a stick or something to get them away because it maybe the switch doesn't work and maybe that's why they've been electrocuted in the first place. Cos they thought it was switched off Yeah. and it wasn't. So get them away from the mains and then what do you do? Erm do the quick A B C. Right, good and erm Check the airway , check the breathing, check Yeah. the circulation. And just treat it as a Yeah. Erm Just try and get their heart beat started. Get them breathing started because the the longest they've been paralysed er Try and get some oxygen in there. Get that going and ring for an ambulance. Yeah. Erm so what's volts all about? Well it takes a while to explain, but I'll try and do it quickly. Erm let's see This is a reservoir of water, right? Mm Erm if the water's very high and say we have a little a little pipe coming through there in the bottom . What's that? That's the dam. Oh right, yeah. So that's the that's the wall and this is the water. Right. Now if the water's fai water level is fairly low, there'll just be a little trickle coming out here. Mm. If there's a lot of water in the dam, right up there, just pull the plug out here it's going to really shoot out. Yeah. Be a lot of pressure there because there's a lot of height Mm. of water. Well you can think of the height of the water as like a voltage. Mm. It tells you ho it's called potential volts, measures potential. It measures electrical potential, you can just call it potential. And if you think of what potential it's got erm sort of like this squirt, if you like. If you Mm. Now if we have a little hole in there, we'll only get a little bit of water coming out, no matter what sort of pressure isn't it? Well let's say let's say we've got a fixed pressure now, we're not going to mess about with the height of the water, it's a constant hundred feet or so. So if we've got a a tiny hole not much water is going to get out. What does No. come out will be really sort of squirting out. But not much water will get through. When we had a great big hole in the bottom of the dam, More pressure. a lot of water would come through. Well that hole is a bit like resistance. Yeah. Right, so if we've got a lot of volts, so lot of volts, that gives a lot of current. And what's current? Current you can think of as the amount of water that actually gets through, the Mm. amount of the amount of electricity that actually gets through, Mm. and the resistance. If we've got high resistance, what do you think will happen with a high resistance? They'll be a lot of current. With a high resistance it's resisting the current, it's stopping the current. Oh right, yeah. Okay, so high resistance gives low current. Low current. And obviously a low resistance Will give a high current. gives a high current. A low resistance is a big hole. A high resistance is if there's a tiny little peep hole Yeah. it was trying to force through that. Yeah. The current is you can think of it as the amount of water goes through, it's actually the the current is the amount of electrons that get through in a second. So I've got someone here on the outside of the dam counting the electrons as they go past. Well lots through to day, cos there's the big hole or there's a lot of pressure. So if you have a lot of pr a lot of pressure, a lot of a lot of volts Mm. and a big hole which will give a low resistance, you get a terrific amount Yeah. going through. If you have a big hole but only tiny little voltage then you won't get much going through. So So it's er always the opposite. Volts the more volts the more current. Yeah. But resistance, the more resistance Stops it. the less you get through . Yeah. So the current reduces the current is going to be something like multiplied by the voltage. Right. So if it's got ten times the voltage, you'll get ten ten times the current through. Which is why one and half volts you know won't do you much harm. No. But assuming your resistance stays the same, your resistance is about one mega million ohms. So if your resistance stays the same and we keep increasing the voltage at some stage you say ooh it feels tingly Mm. ooh I don't like that. That's around erm sixty seventy volts you can say oh don't like that, ninety volts stop. Erm two forty volts So current times the voltage and then divide by the resistance, so current equals V over R , R. you've seen that before. Yeah. You don't usually write C for current because it gets confused with lots of other like capacitance. So we use I. Erm Yeah. that's but that's basically how electricity works. And it needs to have a path to get there and back. So you have a battery and two terminals on it. Then you have say this goes round to a light bulb amps Mm. Doesn't light up. The electric you say oh the electricity can go round there and if it gets light, No it's not it's not connecting. but can't flow through it and get back. So it's not quite the same as this water analogy cos it's got to have somewhere to go all the way round. Yeah. Which is why we call it a circuit. Okay? Erm so if you can try to think about where is the circuit? Where does it start off from, what what started the battery what pole of the battery. Can it get all the round and back to the it'll work. Mm. If it can't get all the way round cos someone's pulled this wire out, or opened a switch That's a short or circuit, isn't it? It's an open circuit. Oh It's an open circuit if there's a bit of a circuit missing. Oh right, yeah. Circuit is missing. A short circuit is when somebody takes a short cut. Now there's the battery. That's fine, yeah. Right, there's the battery and electricity's got to go we usually talk of positive current going round this way. Goes along here and through that big resistance, it's a high resistance. Right? So it's a little a little tiny hole it's trying to get through here. Mm. And it's stopping it. Not much electricity's getting back. You've got a big thick piece of wire across there, join it up. You're not going to get much current down there at all. No. Most of it's going to take the easy way short cut because this sort of looks like, something about this big. That sort of pipe. Yeah. So for the the water to go down the current to flow through. Mm. So it'll take the short cut, the easy way, making a short circuit. Won't go the long way round, a short circuit . No. Erm and if did that with a car battery, erm it'll probably explode. I've seen erm a spanner, metal about that thick, vaporize, on the terminals of a car battery. It's erm when you start a car, have you ever been in a car when someone's started it up in gear and the car moves forward? Yeah. Well that's just the battery doing that. Oh right. So it's got enough power stored in that battery to do that. And in a few in a fraction of a second, if you try and if you short it all out, give it a very you know great big wide pipe to rush through, the virtually the whole contents of the electricity of the battery tries to get through that, and a spanner is like that, very Mm. little resistance goes thorough there, heats the metal very rapidly, melts the metals and then turns the turns the molten metal into vapour Mm. and explodes. And usually the battery explodes. Mm. So don't drop lumps of metal over batteries. Very very dangerous. Yeah. Okay that's the bit about electricity. Let's see Alright. where we can pick up some marks. Now tell me what erm what sort of preparation you did for this. Well erm we had books like these, topics that we had to cover. Yep. And er I told Mum the other day that w in double science we've still got to do one and a half topics. And she couldn't believe it cos like, you know, now we've gotta start down getting some revision, Mm. we've still gotta do one and a half topics of these books. But erm I looked through the books and erm I wrote down notes and things like that, and I looked through my exercise book. And erm at the end they have er questions at the end of each topic. Okay. Which helps you. This is all about the solar system and that. And erm I just basically did that. When you're revising you said the other night, you cover the answers up and try the question. It's erm really about the only way to do it on problems. Yeah. Because if you look at a problem, and you read through, have someone to work it out you say yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah, and that's yeah obvious. Erm if you have the just the question, and you've got to work it out,it's not so obvious. Mm. And it's a good way to check if you know it. Right question number two. Nought. We'll start with that one because because no because no one should get nought on a question I think. Because there's always something even if you kno you think you know something you about it. A bit of common sense will usually give you some answers. Mm. Like erm people always know a lot more than they think they know. And they don't want to put down what they do know cos they think it's obvious. Yeah. But put it down, they get some marks. We haven't done about about circuits. Ah, right. See, Mum and I looked a bit up in my book Right. Each lamp is fifteen watt, thirty volts. They arrange them in series and plug them into the mains supply. Draw a diagram , you didn't. No. So you didn't get anything for that. What is the current through each lamp when they're switched on. Show your working. Two forty volt. Now right okay. That's definitely give you one for that. All fuses can be bought. Which fuse should they put in the plug? I put thirteen . Well, Mum said usually it's three. Well erm Cos there's a lot of bulbs to light up, so I thought thirteen. Looks Give it a higher It does it doesn't really matter erm there's only Give reasons for this choice. If stronger circuits,another bit of Okay erm Protective device. What's that oh is this the teacher's? No I put that in yesterday . Later. Right. A fuse is not an insulator okay? It's a conductor. Right. A fuse again. It's a deliberate weak link. Let's say you're going to tow erm one car with another car. And you've got this good towing rope, you don't want it to snap. You know when towing ropes sometimes Mm. jerk and they snap. So you have the towing rope and then you have a little bit of old rope that is weaker than your rope. Mm. And you use that somewhere in the and you tie that to one car and then join that up. So that if something breaks it's going to be that weak old rope, not Yeah. going to be your new tow rope. Well you can think of it a bit like that. I was tel I was telling you looking at it from another point of view last night of the What happens when you put electricity through a wire? May I pinch one of your cigarettes? Ooh look at that. Yeah. Oh Erm having to put electricity through a wire. Erm it'll either stop the Little bit of electricity and then make it more and more It will increase the electricity will increase through the wire . Right. Okay. So you're increasing the electricity, and what happens to the wire? Melt. Right. Good. Before it melts I mean no we don't normally melt the wires, what but what happens? You notice the erm you've got an electric fire running, what happens to the flex? The flex? What's the flex? The flexible connection. The cable. Erm The wire that goes to it. Well it won't won't work because it'll be It's gets too hot . So whenever electricity whenever electricity goes through a conductor, usually a wire, the wire gets warm. Mm. Erm the electricity every every bit of wire has got some resistance and erm electricity will be struggling through, warms it up. Er what happens in a light bulb, when you switch on? The electricity flows through and lights the bulb up. Why does it light up? Because electricity's been there's a bit in the bulb that How does it how does it make light? How does how does it light? The little bulb inside the actual glass bulb. Right, something there's something inside the glass bulb and what happens to it? Well electricity flows through it. Right and what happens when electricity flows through this little coiled coil of wire ? Lights up. Why does it light up? I don't know. I mean the erm your hair dryer doesn't light up when you put electricity through it, does it? Have you ever seen your hair dryer light up? No. You have actually I'm sure. Have you ever looked down into the hair dryer? Heat. Right and you see it red. Yeah. Especially if it's if as when it first turns on or if the f the fan heater is not blowing very much. And the you see bits of the element glowing red, Mm. If you if you don't with a hair dryer if you weren't blowing the air over it, what happens? Or say a fan heater erm a fan heater in the bathroom Mm. It happened to that the other day. Erm as I say it turned the the element on but no fan blowing air over it to cool it Did it melt? Overheats and it would melt, so because of that they put a little protector thing on to cut out a thermal cut out to stop the current flowing Mm. or it would just melt. So light bulb, when you turn on it gets warm, then it gets hot, then it gets red hot, then it gets white hot. It gets so hot it's giving off a lot of light erm light bulbs are hot to touch. Mm. Yes, so they're Yeah. giving off heat and quite a bit of that heat is coming off as light. Right. So they're deliberately made so we get light out of them. Erm that's ohm's law is part of the question, question two. And to work out any of the volt or Right. Amps amps is current, right? Yeah. So we'll go back to Ohm's law here. Current is volts divided by resistance. Right current in amps, let's give you two, volts and do you know what we measure resistance in? Erm no. I do know but I sh I should know . Okay. On her majesty's service. Ohms. Ohms! Yeah that's it. Called Yeah. Who's law it was. Now so on that one. Well they give you they even give you fro from that by manipulating then equations you can derive other equations, you come up with other equations. That's one of the equations that you come up with. Okay? So current is equal to volt is equal to power divided by volt Mm. Right. erm Current which one. How many marks next question? Three. Okay. Erm There's quite a bit to go into with that but that's hopefully given you some idea of how electricity works. Mm. The equations they will give you in the book are in that one. Erm they give it er you just have to know what power is. Power is the wattage. Mm. So erm electric motors are measured in power. Wattage. Mm. Mopeds. You know when you've got a moped,plate on it? Mm. And it'll say so many kilowatts. Mm. It's just a measurement of power. Right. So instead of measuring horsepower you're measuring kilowatts. Erm okay. Let's have a look at two papers. Right, you've got a lot of twos on that one. Couple of fives on this. Five on number five. Right again electricity here, you didn't get two marks Electricity board could use wind generated power in several ways. So when there isn't any wind you can use the thermal power stations instead. You're something funny by using . Sa saving Yeah. Erm I mean I wouldn't necessarily agree with all these markings because everybody who marks the markings are sometimes slightly different. Yeah. But erm that's a that's a reasonable answer. Two out of three. What fuels may be used in thermal power stations? Two out of three there, so fossil fuels, nuclear reactor, wind and what's the other energy source that you can use? Well not wind. Solar. Yeah, what fuels need thermal power stations? Solar power. Erm thermal is the fuel that you're heating. So that's like Erm they use gas power stations as well. Yeah. So they're probably looking for both fossil fuels which includes gas. Okay, so I think you've got, definitely got the idea there. Yeah. That's okay. Now are you alright on charts? Bar charts? Yeah, if you turn over I've got eighteen out of twenty two. Brilliant. Good that's good. Because that's that's a thing that will apply to all subjects. So if Mm. you're good at that you can get marks in lots of subjects Yeah I'm I'm alright on that. just on that. Okay. That was all about smoking so Oh yeah, what's a load in a river? I've got a question L O A D? Yeah, there. Yeah. I looked it up but I couldn't Erm if you look at a river that's working run running quickly down from the mountains Mm. to the sea. It's carrying with it a lot of soil, bits of rock, Mm. that's it's load. I put the impact of the river, she didn't Mm. give me any marks No. No. It's it's also called the . It's what it carries down to the Mm. sea. When it gets to the sea, it slows down. When Mm. it slows down it drops a lot of the silt, mud and rocks. So higher up it's dropping the rocks. Mm. As it gets slower and slower it can only carry smaller and smaller particles. Mm. By the time it gets to the sea then it's slowed down a lot, it's usually carrying very fine silt , Mm. which it drops as mud. And the mud creeps out further and builds a delta Mhm. er the Nile delta or the Ganges or the Mississippi delta. Yeah. Okay so that's what the load is. The Right. stuff that it's The stuff that Just the load it's carrying along with. Yeah. Erm So you could pick a few up a few marks on that. Hmm. Yes, good answer. Take it to an expert who'll tell you what's happening. But the question is you have to design the experiment and you have to be the expert. Oh yeah . So we get some crops and put a hedge Well I mean that'll that might be worth a few marks. Mm. Erm yeah. Don't give it anything to eat. Give it just cereal and see if it eats it. If it doesn't I'm not touching that. hedgehogs are obviously not eating the the wheat and the corn. No. Should be something else. But Mm. if it does start eating the wheat, well okay. Now we'll give it a choice of a few other things, Mm. and see if it eats it when he's not starving. Erm And on to the earth's crust. Iron is one of the most important metals. So of the metals iron is very important, so is copper, because we use it a lot in circuits, erm Is that right? Write in a write a word equation to get Is that right? Well an equation has an equals sign in it. Oh right, yeah. So it's one thing plus it's the in this case it's iron plus oxygen gives iron oxide. Oh right, okay, yeah. Erm so it'll be F E plus O two will give F E two O three Yeah. erm or F E three O four. There are Mm. two types of iron oxide. Erm so you just say the symbol. First of all you just think of it in words,the iron plus the oxygen gives iron oxide. If Okay. you wrote that erm well for one mark, you'd probably wouldn't get Probably get anything because you want the you they want the equation They want the Yeah. what three things can be done to prevent it? Erm keep it dry, keep it covered, erm I put it I wouldn't have given you the mark for covered. Definitely a mark for dry. What do you mean by covered? You usually say erm protected by paint or galvanized. Yeah. But it needs to be you need to have oxygen and you need water. Keep it away from oxygen is another one. Make sure there's no air around that'll stop it rusting. Right. Iron ore. Right. iron ore, it comes up every year, erm an alloy. Right. An alloy is when you've got two or more metals mixed together. So Right erm bronze is copper and tin. an alloy is best when it combines the best of it's component metals. Now we don't we don't need to work with iron. The thick frying pan is cast iron. It's black because it's still got a lot carbon in it. And Right. it's brittle. If you hit that hard with your hammer, it'll just break. Yeah. Erm a steel pan, if you hit it with a hammer, it'll dent. Mm. So stainless steel, is an alloy of iron. Two reasons pure iron to make car exhaust pipes. Right, there's an easy two marks. At least an easy one mark. Why is stainless steel called stainless? Have you seen stainless steel sinks? Yeah. Okay. Do they rust? No. So why might it be a good idea to use stainless steel for a car exhaust pipe? Because it won't rust then. So you won't be replacing your exhaust Well yeah. every year cos it won't rust away if it's stainless steel. Erm okay,Right. Fancy a What would you do to produce a movement of the ammeter needle? Turn the switch on. size of the movement more coils put more batteries. What would you do to reverse the direction of the ammeter needles first movement, B? You wouldn't reduce the batteries to reverse it to make it go the other way. You'll reverse the battery. Turn the battery round the other way Oh right, yeah. in the circuit and then the needle will jump the other way. Yeah. Three marks here. Electric currents. Induce currents,transformers work by induced currents, pick out appliances that use for transformer . Okay a pack is one. Erm a drill,electric toothbrush probably use a transformer because you want to lower it er an electric shaver would use a transformer. You I think these are what would you run off a transformer. So reading lamp, toothbrush and three marks so we're looking for three of them. Electric Yeah. shaver you run off and a toothbrush. Yeah. Erm things you would and you wouldn't want them connected to the mains, stuck in your mouth. Yeah. Right. So some of them you can work out buy if you know what a transformer does, it steps down all of the current, it reduces the voltage. Mm. So instead of dealing with sort of high trying to push everything So if you bring your voltage down from two forty volts to say you could get a a transformer, a battery eliminator, for a tape recorder. If you that runs on one and a half volts. Mm. Three volts sorry, three volts. So plug two forty volts into that, just not Mm. transformer to bring it down to a lower voltage. So lots of things like that it transforms. Right. Erm That one I that second paper she put the answers in so Okay. my teacher put the answers in. Erm right. A number of materials including metals are superconductors at very low temperatures. They've got very low conducting's the opposite of resistance so the good conductors You have a look at the chart. Mum seems to think I was right. Right,What is the crit the critical temperature of superconductor wiring? Oh no, not that one. I've got the wrong one, sorry. So minus a hundred and twenty there I mean that's they're just the there's not a lot of difference really. Oh no, that's not right. I No. wouldn't give you any marks for that . No. Because you didn't put the minus in. Yeah. That's why. There's a chart in here, hang on. No it's in this one. There's a chart and Mum seems to there it is. Read that then and I I put forty two. Right. Four weeks January seventy eight, windmills and electricity demand in California, four weeks of January. So that's the electricity demand. And that's the power What's the highest for Jan seventy eight. So the highest forty two. erm forty one,forty two It doesn't go Right forty forty two. forty two,maybe forty three but it's very close especially that they haven't given any scale No. to read it. So that's the electricity per so that's fine. Yeah, but I got that bit wrong Forty two. Okay well they get they've got lots of them to mark and they marked quickly but I Looks alright to me that. Hmm. Sorry, I just wanted your opinion I mean . Mm. I mean it might be wrong but I can't see Okay. You don't know much about heptane and ethanols Oh no . things . Right erm oh it's a bit late to get into organic chemistry Yeah. so I'll Now are these Yeah, her marks were Complete complete combustion of ethanol. Erm Still haven't got any oxygen. That should be a plus, that's what's wrong with it. Mm. So should have put a plus there. Ethanol plus oxygen gives carbon dioxide, water. Right. Erm so change that. This is your paper isn't it? Go on John, you gonna start? Er in general terms er there was no big mannerisms or faults as far as I can see, there's very good eye contact er throughout er you, you kept the person's attention. Er we then take this as the actual structure er social qualities we're okay then you jump straight into the statement of the purpose er er because you're . The thing I noticed was that they're all close questions, you like the area, now Martin was very fair to you because you, he was very me most you could've got very much did you move because of your , yes. Again you cooperated, you gave er a good idea so erm you went on there er Martin to a certain extent was then taking control simply because he was verbose nature. Er then he made the I'd better cut back to the business card because you jumped into the statement of purpose erm you assum er there was an assumed er was okay erm I put superb and I can't remember what that actually was there. That was the the Oh that's erm your objection er was nobody had seen me and you didn't really answer the question clients by coming in to their homes you know, Martin made the comment er that in actual fact nobody had seen them seen them in six or seven years so I thought that was a possibility for a just er oh n maybe not as deep a but nevertheless erm there was a good, good pause er er how did you er come to be with Friends Provident er you, it was good that you asked er er if the wife would be attending the second meeting, that was an important thing. You completely the wife actually what erm another good point was that you got in are, are there dependants there were certain close questions again, the fact that the wife smoked a pipe gave you the opportunity to turn round and say well that's, that's good, that's a benefit because she could be classed as a non-smoker there's just wee er opportunities there and that's as much as I had if anyone else wants to add to these comments. I agree with a lot of, of what John's saying. I actually disagree wife's erm employment service cos I feel asking things like that he actually, he actually seemed to miss it and go back to s saying I know what you're actually thinking. The one, the thing that I actually picked up on is tt erm in the greeting part of it you, you started very well and then Martin seemed to take control and you almost felt as if Martin was interviewing you at one point and erm you tried to get the control back and that's when you went straight into the statement of purpose,because Martin was taking control. Erm I thought that erm I, I mean I was getting some things that John hasn't, hasn't mentioned, erm when you mentioned the wife being there erm when you, when you were introducing the C C Q you then assumed that you would be coming back with recommendations Mm. erm and I think maybe that you, you jumped in shouldn't have done that er because obviously M Martin got quite defensive at that point you know because you were only going there to do this financial planning service and er selling them anything, you were just offering this financial planning service and then you jumped in with these, when I come back with my recommendations erm tt I also thought that erm you know it was a little bit dodgy actually to say you, well you know erm tt we have found that our records are incorrect and I thought well then that maybe and erm you went ve you went very o when you were talking about the dependants erm you, you you didn't seem to get into er erm how many children have you got and is there any other dependants, it, you, it seemed to take you a long time to actually get there. And the other thing I was writing the information down. Yeah and and the other thing which I, actually I've been laughing at here is because you were laughing at yourself when you were asking the questions . I was thinking about all the So, so erm wh which, you know, made me smile and I'm sure it did everybody else but whenever you were asking a question to Martin you, you started laughing as you were telling it erm and that's I don't think that I would actually have to Apart from all of that erm it's, it's, like, like the, the clo closed questions, there was no real no real commitment er with, with the questions you were asking, you, you seemed to be afraid to ask them. You know, erm, you know what sort of gross salary and you know and there was, you were holding back in a way erm tt and why you didn't wanna discuss your hobbies you know where you were losing it Mm. well he didn't wanna di discuss his hobbies you didn't wanna reveal any of yours. Erm what sort of pastimes do you actually get up to, this is what we wanna know now. Erm and the willingness to proceed erm it seemed, it missed something no I, I didn't think it, you, you sort of said you know, can we go for it there was no real that's what I picked up on. Okay. Okay Sally. Could I just make one final Yeah. I know where I was when I wrote assume superb, he assumed the Friends Provident policies were good Mhm. now someone could turn, take e exception to that Right. cos these blooming policies are not doing as well as I expected Well this is an and then and then you're splitting yourself, you're building a barrier up for yourself. That was, that was the one I think assume superb was actually policies. Yeah. Okay fine. Er right then tt here we go. Erm as well as all that erm I'll just try and add in the extra bits that Erm what was oh sorry how did I come to Friends Provident then? How did I come to Friends Provident? Through his company. Yeah. presentation. Mhm. Er and who did that presentation? presentation ? He said I should like to redeem this I F A Well and you've got to stop, you've gotta back off Mm. okay, so that wasn't er explored Mhm. I thought the was very good and I liked the way you, you introduced that, you introduced it, came to agreement by acknowledgement I thought that went really quite well. Erm the statement of fine. Erm maintain, to maintain contact is not as good as what it should've been but that was fair enough. You did actually sort of make when I said well I've not seen anybody you did say say that but I'll come to that later on, okay, so it wasn't a but you acknowledged and you answered it. Okay I that would have been okay in that particular case but you did come back to it as benefit, you say we haven't seen you for such a long time that was a not just look at your policies but to put a, a face to the name so I can become your point of reference Mm. right now or some time in the future. erm the buyer's guide and the business card erm yes it is a legal requirement but I mean, you know, don't hammer the fact, this is a legal, I've gotta give it to you, okay so it came across in that particular vein. And again, as Jimmy said, don't knock the system, you know there are mistakes made but we don't hang it up and say look know we've made lots of mistakes, you're, you're undermining your own erm performance. Yeah. Mm. The reason I said smoking a pipe, okay, you assumed that she smoked cigarettes. She could've smoked ci er cigarillos, she could've smoked a pipe, yeah,erm tt with regards to working, you did ask did she work but is sh she is a tax payer, she wasn't because it's pin money. Again the temptation to become assumptive Although that information would've come out with her salary wouldn't it? Yeah but you did say on that base oh well you pay tax but obviously you must do as well then Mm. but she didn't, she was a non tax payer in that particular scenario. They would have come Yeah. out later on but again try not to be too assumptive. Tt and what else did I put, erm yeah when you are writing things down try and maintain some sort of eye contact, the only time, the eye contact was fine but there were Yes. occasions when, you know, you actually turned your shoulder to me, your head went down and obviously Yeah I was aware of that. you're trying about the erm point, okay that was a bit of wide ball but I might have taken offence at that. Yes, yeah you could've done I mean why why ? Yeah. You know you had a but be, be aware of that. Yes. Good to see you checked to see if the wife would be there, okay pretty pointless going through the whole process if, if she has all the facts Mm. erm especially budget and so that was good. Erm you look fairly fit thank you very much, you know, very sweet of you dear, erm tt and I think to, to carry on with the regards to well how much do you earn you went all around the houses, don't apologize and say well I have to ask you because, you know,, you know you need to know Mm. cos if you don't know how much money that he's earning what can you do? Tell me, how much do you earn end of story. You did go round the houses on that that wasn't to get the point Yeah. yeah, so you know, get stuck in there. Er and I think that's all I have to say. All in all very good,lots of good aspects there but again be aware of erm you learn the C C Q Yeah. cos you were taking yeses when it should be nos Yeah I know. you were putting in information that shouldn't be there, okay you've gotta grip to the C C Q before we I think the other thing also, I found it a disadvantage actually having it on the table, I think if I'd just left it on the like that Yeah. and then done it yeah, you could've you know, I just put it on the table and left it there and as I say it's certainly better to because when you're looking like then it's easier do that. Okay, you could yeah. Yeah. Any other comments? I mean what were your thoughts Sally? Erm Yeah it went er it went it went a bit wrong at the beginning because as I say you did it with business card and er buyer's guide, that came in a after the erm statement of purpose really. Mm. Erm but I felt because we were sitting there the appropriate sociability went on longer. I think if you're actually th when you, when you go into somebody's house and you're talking once, once you actually sit down you more or less then accept that you're going into a business situation. Possibly. and er and i it's easier to do that er sort of, I mean certainly you, you, you were very forthcoming to You might you might Yeah. come and sit down and get to business, now he may not, he may still want to have a chat about the weather or whatever you know so again be aware that to cut too soon to business Yeah. like well I want to know you do, I mean what you picked up Yeah. oh sorry well I don't wanna talk about that because I want to get to business Yeah. I could've taken offence at that. Yeah. The other thing is as well though you could've actually got more out of Martin by talking about that because you may have mentioned something that he's enjoying and says oh I do that, or something like that. Right. Mm. So it would've led to other things as well. Yeah I, I mean to be honest on that I was more conscious of the fact that we'd only got fifteen minutes and we wanted to get into the thing. I mean it's not er it's not something that I would normally do, I mean I would be quite happy to chat to somebody probably for too long. And that could be just as bad. I know, yeah, yeah Yeah cos you find you're cutting the too short That's right. and then cutting business too late, cutting them off as things are starting to flow Mm. so be aware that you don't want to ramble on too long or this appointment could go on for ever and a day. I thought that was brilliant, is there somebody at the door? But I, but I think you know the, the, the thing that I found erm most difficult as you say was, was actually completing the C C Q and I think part of it and asking the question but it is, certainly it would be easier to do it using that on your knee rather than doing it at the table because I was aware that I was turning away Yes. from you and, and I was looking at that and ticking boxes and I was, I was almost not listening to what you were saying at times. Erm Yeah. That that's the C C Q That's right. But as I say it ce it would be better to do it that way. Good. Any other comments? Er actually that's, the, the position becomes important, you see that wouldn't present a problem because I was like that Mm. Yeah. Yeah. it's just, just an observation you see, avoid these particular problems Yes that's a good point. and just wherever you sit. See you could sit that way interview Yeah. But your, your point about not being very er positive the interviews that I do I, I do in a very relaxed manner. Mm. Oh yes I, I think erm I think it may have been that er you, they assumed you're lacking confidence because you were laughing at yourself so much when you were asking the questions. away. Yeah . And that made them laugh. It was actually, I nearly creased up and fell off the chair at that stage. I'll just pass these to Yeah give them to Ron they're for you. that's for your personal development and er Ta. but try and keep, you know try and get some good feedback this is something to go away and look at in conjunction with if you wanna view the video again then say . Good, get the idea? Yeah. Right, okay. So what time's the next one start? Er we'll start in fifteen minutes I think. Sorry seven minutes. No. Yeah we've got five minutes The first one started at quarter past. Past, we should be starting the second one at ten past. So we've got a minute. Right. Cos you've got five minutes preparation. But who's my customer? Er it will be erm Did you hear about my erm my Friday afternoon with Robert as my customer? No. Well you know that we wer we weren't allowed to see our customer's briefing? Now well I'm sitting there, Robert's my customer and like I'm sitting there and he comes out with this fabulous spiel, right, as this objection, right, that was word perfect and he's sitting there after he's finished it as smug as anything and looking at me as if to say so what are you gonna do about that then? Oh dear! You know? And at this point Sorry to keep you waiting. That's okay. The timetable doesn't appear to bear bear any resemblance to what er I've got on the programme. You're not looking like Steve Steve is downstairs. Is he? Oh right, well Well he, well I dunno we don't mind. We don't mind. Martin came in and told me I was supposed to be upstairs, Steve was has gone into where I was so Oh well they've obviously swapped round. Anyway I'll, I'll just finish er telling you this, so Robert's then sitting back smug with himself and looking at me as if to say what do you think about then, and I'm thinking I've heard these words before, where have I heard these words before right, and I look over to Roger and Roger's flicking through his notes like this and as you, you were peeping through and he's trying to find out what, what he's talking about, they're not looking at each other and anyway at the end of it, er we went through it and at the end of it he turned round and went how was it, what were you playing at, what was that spiel that you gave it's in my brief, that's one of my objections and you know what it wasn't one of his objections at all, you know the video that we saw that morning Yeah it was in that. and he'd remembered this spiel and he'd got it word perfect and he's reeling it off as his one objection You just need people like him don't you? You really do. It was excellent though wasn't it? It was brilliant because He didn't miss anything out. Right. It was just oh dear. Are yous gonna start the I'll start the camera. I'll wait till Maggie finishes her danish. Please. Steve came in with a danish and a cup of coffee and I'm thinking I know. Where's mine. I called in at the wrong time. Are you going to be my customer? Er my sales person? Unfortunately. Never mind. It could be worse for you. I'm not quite sure how but I'm sure it could be worse . Mm. Alan's going to be very dodgy. Well if I start being No I'm not, I'm not Carry on. Are you ready? Joan. Are you ready Joan? A minute. Have you finished your danish? Yes thank you very much and don't put that Okay have you got both of us in? Yes. I did check earlier, hang on I'll just er as you've moved the chair I'll just check it again. Yeah you're both in. The red light is on. Off you go. Action. Good morning Mrs it's Joan from Friends Provident. Oh right, yes. Nice to see you. Yes it's a lovely area around here actually isn't it? I didn't know this part existed actually. Yeah it's fairly new actually, it's a nice new development. Well I think it's quite quiet as well. Well there's a few children around but erm they generally tend to be the older ones. Oh right. Have you lived here long? Erm no we moved in eighteen months ago. Oh right so you're still settling in then. Yes. Very much so. You're not new to the area though, just to this bit? No we, we heard that this development was coming up so we came round and looked and liked it and took the plunge. Okay if I can just erm give you my business card that tells you who I am Alright. erm I'll just give you this buyer's guide erm this tells you erm that I'm a representative of Friends Provident and can therefore only recommend the Friends Provident products which er suit your needs. Okay? Okay. So tell me Mrs how did you come to with Friends Provident in the first place? Ah I think it's when Martin and I were taking a top up on our mortgage the last time erm the building society suggested we took the policy out with you. Right. So really you were recommended to us then? Well yes, yes I suppose we were. Good. Cos that's the usual line you see that, that er that I get, you may have heard the phrase that we've grown big by being recommended. I haven't actually, no. Oh right . Well erm I'll tell you what it is we, we actually build our business by word of mouth and it er these sort of introductions means that we rarely advertise erm and the money saved can be used to benefit policy holders such as yourself which sometimes means that it can reduce charges and erm increase bonuses wherever possible. How do you feel er about that way of building our business? Yeah I suppose that's makes, that makes sense, yes. Oh good, good. Because during the course of our discussions today I'll ask you to introduce me to others if, and only if, you think this meeting with me today has been of benefit to yourself, would that be okay? Mm yes, let's see what you can do for me first. Well I can understand that. Okay. As I said to you er when I spoke to you on the phone, I wanted to come erm one to introduce myself because I'm now the new financial adviser for this area, erm also to review your existing policies to make sure that they are doing what they were originally designed to do. What we find is that sometimes people have taken out policies some years ago and they've actually forgotten what their money's doing for them so erm that's another side of it and also to introduce our new financial planning service erm and in doing so we may be able to highlight areas in which we could save you money er for example erm saving you money on tax or increasing your income either now or some time in the future. Is that okay? Well yes, yes that sounds fine. Good. Good. Well tt during, during our discussions I'll be taking notes on your current financial situation but also why erm your thoughts for the future and erm and in doing this I'll be using this form to actually assist me to actually take down these notes. It also keeps me on the right track as well. Is, is that okay? It does look rather a big document, you know. Well it is but er what we do is we, we've got the one er we've got the one erm pack that actually we use for, for all kinds of business and not all of this would actually relate to yourself but what we do is we combine it in into one pack. So a lot of this would actually be irrelevant to yourself. What are you going to do with the information though? I mean erm does, does this get, get s given to other people? No any information that I actually take from yourself and put down here is completely confidential. It goes back to our branch and erm everything they tell me it's completely confidential and erm you would be able to see this and sign whatever I wrote in here as well. Okay. Is that okay? Yeah, okay. Good. Okay then. Have you got any middle names? No just er just the one name. Okay. Your husband's not in today? Er no he's at business. Oh right, okay. Could I have your husband's name please? His er name's Martin. Your both tax payers? Unfortunately yes. I know, I feel like that as well but never mind . Can I enquire your husband's date of birth please? Yes it's the fourth April nineteen forty seven. Okay and children, do you have children, yes. Yes we've got two erm eight and ten. My daughter's the eldest, Susan. Okay. And John. Could I have their date of births? Erm Susan is the seventeenth of August nineteen eighty two and John is the tenth November erm er nineteen eighty four. Eight four. Okay you've got no other dependants, financial dependants? Er well Martin does have an elderly mother, she's not financially dependent on us as such but we do try and keep a track of her finances and if she needs help we, we erm help her out. Oh right, okay. Er she lives with you? No she doesn't live with us but she does live locally and that was one of the reasons for being here because it's a little bit easier to get to her. Okay. But this probably makes her feel a little bit more secure as well doesn't it? Yes and the kids can drop round and see her from time to time. Cheer her up Yeah. Okay erm your children go to the local schools do they? Er well Susan's erm gone to, obviously gone on to senior school now er she's, she went, she started this year. John, we don't know what's happening at the moment, he's, we're not, we're not at all sure. There are a few problems there. Right. Have they got any ideas about what they want to do in the future? Yeah? Er well Susan's very much into music and erm I think she thinks she'd like to earn her living that way but it's a very hard way to earn a living. I can imagine so, yes. It'd be a very difficult business to get into. Okay. Erm so maybe they'll be going on to university, college university. Susan I think probably will, John's more on the practical side. Okay. You always say that you never get two children the same, they're No. always, it sounds as if they've got completely different personalities. Yes. Yes . Susan takes after Martin's family and unfortunately John takes after my family. Okay. Your state of health? Erm mine's good but Martin's been having some back trouble. Is that only recently is it? Mm no he's had it over a period of time, we think it may be hereditary cos his father had some back trouble too when he was alive Oh right. so he's going for some more tests next week. Right so he's under okay. Do you smoke? I don't but Martin does. Cigarettes? Yes. Far too many, that's a source of contention. My husband actually said to me that giving up smoking was easy because he's done it plenty of times. Yes Martin has as well. So erm what do you do in your spare time? Well I don't have actually a lot of spare time. Erm as a family we, we tend to erm go camping. Right. You're not into any of this bunjee jumping or free fall parachute jumping of anything? Oh! Perish the thought you have to be certified to do that. I don't know how they've got the nerve actually, it's quite terrifying just to watch it. Okay. Wha what is it that you do for a living? I'm, well I work part-time down at the local library. You are a librarian? I was yes I er I got my degree in was qualified and er the hours they, they were offering happened to fit in with the family so I was quite glad to get the extra income. Right. And that's just down in the library is that it? Yes. Yes. Okay and what does your wife, tt your wife, your husband do? Er he's the sales manager for erm software company. Oh he's into computers is he? Yes, that's why I've got one upstairs . They drive you round the bend. My husband works in computers as well. They're worse than children Who does he work for? Erm it's A P C erm they moved their, their erm business out from erm er Liverpool, decided to come back here cos it was cheaper. And that's just down near ? Yes. Okay what's your gross salary? Oh couldn't tell you my gross straight off, erm I do twenty hours a week and I bring home er bring home about thirty five pound. And your husband? Erm well he's expecting a rise in the spring erm but last year he was on twenty five and a half. Obviously neither of you are at retirement age so you won't be in receipt of any retirement benefits. No. Okay, do you know what your actual take home pay is out of those? Yours would obviously be thirty five pounds a week. I'm not sure because erm Martin has a number of things that come out of his er salary, there's erm his pension of course and erm there, there's some insurance scheme they run at work as well. Okay. Is that er erm a contracted out pension scheme Yes, yes I is it a non-contributory No no no, he does contribute. Right. And the insurance? Did you say there was an insurance Yes there's some sort of insurance scheme, it's erm widows and orphans som something like that. Right. What's that, that actually insuring for? Erm if anything happens to him quite a large lump sum comes to us. So it's, it's a life assurance? Mm oh well yeah I suppose so. Okay. Have you any other source of income, either you or your husband? Erm well I've got a little cottage that was left to me up in erm North Wales that we rent out. Erm is that seasonal is it that you just rent out in the summer? Erm no it does get rented out sometimes in the winter as well but it tends to be more in the summer. Right so you rent that out on a weekly basis? Yes. Aha. I go through an estate agent up there that, that acts as my agent but erm don't make any money out of it. No? Well no the, the cost, the rent more or less covers the cost of maintenance. Right. What is the rent that you're actually charging? Erm it's er si sixty pound a week. Erm but you've maintenance charges to come out of it. I've got to pay the estate agent as well. Your husband, has he any other source of income? No. Okay. I think that's it. I've come to the end of the form. fifteen minutes? two minutes Have you er has it gotta re be rewound right back to the beginning? No because I've got my erm interview from Oh right. from Friday. Do you know exactly where it is?rewind on there. Oh it'll be zero won't it? Alright. You're not Hidden talents you see. It is. It's a good thing you didn't have me doing it. The camera would have fallen apart by now. I did it, there was this one group on Friday Really? Yeah, we had one that broke and Well Diane's group was probably okay. Well one of their videos erm Martin had got the position of the camera set up wrong so all she got was erm arms. Are you not gonna play it back to Yeah. Oh right. We are What do we want, just press play? Yes. Rewind You don't like that one Joan do you? Yeah hold it. Sir Patrick Mayhew became the new Northern Ireland Secretary. His appointment is thought to herald a tougher security policy particularly so since it was announced that the back bench I think that's it. Right who's going to start? Are you starting Robert? I'll start, yeah. in dreamland. Right. Erm greetings and appropriate sociability although it flowed a lot of it was actually sort of statements and or closed questions. Right. Oh I'm sorry I aren't supposed to talk am I? Well no you're not really but don't worry about it. Erm it, it did sort of get going but I felt that Maggie held back a little bit on that whereas you, you might have got er you know a bit, a bit more information with open questions. Erm ha having gone through that you moved on er and gave out your business card fi first and then the buyer's guide erm don't know whether you're happy doing it that way or whether it's better round the other way, I I, you, you tend to think if you give somebody the buyer's guide first when they start to look at it you give them your business card and take it away, perhaps if you do it the other way round they might s start reading the buyer's guide Mm. but oh no I mean you gave them both out anyway, that, that was er that was no problem. Erm the link to referrals and introductions that was very good. Erm you, you went into that very well. The only, the only bit I did find was the very last part during the course didn't sound as natural as the rest of it. The first part, the build up to it No I, I was very good. Sorry. But as I say the last bit where you sa dur during the course of the, of this conversation it almost sounded as though you were gonna, you're doing it parrot, parrot fashion whereas the rest of it was, was superb, there was no, no problems in that. Erm your statement of purpose was good, in fact excellent. Erm the tentative benefit you put in at the end of that you said is that okay and Maggie said yes erm the answer could be construed I, I thought in that basis well yes it's okay so what whereas if you'd've said is that of interest to you Mm. you'd've known that, you know, she, she was gonna be interested in that. Erm checking the willingness to proceed, you did that as you went along. Maybe a little bit too often though. No erm Maggie, Maggie arranged an objection about the C C Q erm and you overcame that very easily, no problems at all really, you went through that well. Erm she said about, you know,the thickness or the bulging er the information and worry about giving personal details and, and that was good, that was fine. Erm so as far as the, the you know, the steps was concerned that, that went through good, very well, and you went through them all in er in, in the right order. Other comments you didn't actually ask at any ti any point through there I don't believe whether the husband ought to be involved. No I didn't. I forgot. Erm it turned out in the end that, that you got some information about the husband, particularly about a pension scheme, but you almost got the impression was well, you know, was it really right? Mm. I think a lot of er a lot of wives may not have given you as much information as Maggie did. Erm also as far as the husband's back trouble was concerned, I f I felt that perhaps you should've got a bit more information about the fact that he was going for tests next week at the hospital. You've gotta look at it as an ongoing er on an ongoing problem but erm you, you could've perhaps have gone into it a little bit more then just to find out erm there was also a mention of, of an income rise in the spring Which I made a note of. Yeah but you didn't a actually sort of hone in on any particular date. The only point I felt w you know we mentioned the other day that if, if there's a rise say on the first of April then you wanna get in a couple of months before then. Mm. It could've varied, you know, any time if you like from, from March till May and without knowing the exact date you might be a bit late or a bit too early er for future business. As far as the, the cottage er was concerned, the information about that erm the answer was oh well you know I don't make any money out of it erm you, you asked about whether it, whether it was erm whether it was making money but you di you didn't actually ask, bearing in mind that, that, that Maggie had already said she paid tax, whether she actually de declared it for tax purposes and what, what sort, what sort of figure it showed. Whether there was actually any income there and er as a result of that. Erm bearing in mind that when she actually came and spoke about her part-time job her income was thirty five pound a week and yet she said she was a tax payer well take home pay was thirty five pound a week and talking about being a tax payer. Erm she said that her husband was a sales manager you didn't clarify, you know,whe exactly what that was. Whe whether it was involved in, whether there was any travel involved or whether it was all desk bound or anything else you know whether he goes zooming off all over the country or whether, whether there's a possibility of travel involved or any danger in it, in the job, unlikely but Okay. Alright? Yeah. Erm as far as mannerisms are concerned, the only one I picked up was that you say okay quite often. Right. Okay but other than that it's fine. Maggie do you wanna go if, if you've gotta shoot off? No Is it time to change over? No we just, we, we finished a bit early. Oh. I see. Oh. Anybody else want to add anything? Erm not, not really. I thought, I thought it, it flowed a a apart from all that, I think it flowed Mm. well Yeah. and of course, you know like yours yourself Bob and probably both of us, it's, we're not used to the actual C C Q as such Mm. which we need to be and once we get into the rhythm I'm sure it'll all be a lot easier but you seem to have a calmness about your how you speak which is good and you know I'm sure I'll go to pieces but erm yeah it was just, and what I've picked up on as you say where it's er how did you come to Friends Provident bum de bum de bum, we're going through erm a structured erm spiel if you like and then they're saying well I don't really wanna give you any you know, recommendations at this moment and erm what we should do there is, is I suppose apack that isn't it? We're just saying oh well we'll see how it goes and we're sort of putting it down whereas I suppose we should hit them straight away. Well she didn't object, she just wanted to see how it went so it wasn't a Yeah but it's I don't know. Right, okay, fair comment though, fair comment. Okay? I mean you know it's, it's both you and me Yeah. and we're probably the same you know Yeah. I, I could quite easily miss it. Right. Okay. Anything else? No? Not really. Bill? Er never asked about full names er of everyone whether it be yourself, the husband or the kids the full names. Er who do you work for is it a local library, is it district council, is it gr er er regional council I asked that. I thought she said local library actually. She said local library and the local library could be run by the regional council, it could be run by the district council because although you work part-time you've got to look at pension if you've got other income er to use the revenue maximum. Erm never got to what, what your annual salary was at all, you just said thirty five pounds was take home pay erm confidentiality yeah you'll be able to sign it but that doesn't give confidence as to whether anybody else is gonna see it No I did tell her that it was completely confidential. You said it was completely confidential but I mean I would just say well it's, it's between Friends Provident and yourself end of story. Erm does er Martin's mother own her own home? Wee question, and I mean she's dependent upon them but she may own But she isn't dependent on them, she's, I did actually clarify that. Yeah. Dependent in the sense of looking after them but she is independent so therefore she may own her own home so there's obviously the opportunity what happens . One thing I picked up, maybe rightly or wrongly, well there's two, there's two actually Maggie said that John was like them and he had problems maybe you've got problems, Maggie has problems I mean. Erm where do you go when they went camping? Camping in the Himalayas? I don't know I mean er maybe these are minute but whether you should explore them at that moment in time I mean only experience will tell. Okay? Finish it off. I th there was, there was one big point that I actually missed out as well that neither of you have picked up on and that was that Maggie actually said that they were having problems with John in school and I should've come back and, and said well she di she actually said that she was having problems with John, full stop, and I should've actually come back and, and clarified whether it was at school or not and hence led to the private education and I missed that one completely and realized that I'd done it afterwards but none of you picked up on that one. Erm well, you haven't heard me yet. No No obviously Right. Okay Maggie. Erm greeting and appropriate sociability fine, you were a little bit nervous so you tended to sort of talk over me a little bit but that's not a problem, it probably wouldn't happen in real life. You said about the buyer's guide that it's, that you were a representative of Friends Provident, you're an employee and it's very very important to stress that because people like Abbey National were appointed representatives but we are employees and that's one of the things, that's one of the good things you can get out of the buyer's guide. Erm I thought your, your link to referrals was excellent. However I did throw in a little bit of doubt, there was a possible objection there that you might have apacked you sound a little bit doubtful Mrs , do you have a problem with that Mm. and find out what my problem was. Your statement of purpose was excellent, there was a good explanation erm the fact about the existing policies and what you might be able to achieve in the future, very very good. Your tentative benefit was not perhaps as clear as it might have been which would have made it easier to lead into my willingness to proceed. Mhm. Erm the point that both the others raised about my objection with the large document and my objection regarding what you were going to do with the information you could have apacked and come out with a stronger result. Erm a lot of cl closed questions but that's unavoidable to a certain extent with this part of the C C Q, however you didn't ask about whether there are any other family locally or otherwise Mm. yes there was my mother-in-law, but there's a probability that there's quite a few others living locally. Erm I said it was unfortunate that John took after my family and that was your cue to ask a bit more, I said we were having problems erm and also the business about Martin's back, the tests, what problems, how long it's been ongoing, what are the possible future problems arising from that. With the camping, yes, where do we go, who else is involved, again the openings for referrals. Erm the rise was also the cue to check on erm pension increase and I felt you should've asked a little bit more about the life cover, most companies do have arrangements for quite large sums of money to be paid out to dependants, this will have an impact on life cover planning in the future. Erm you asked about the cottage and the amounts, yeah there was you could have asked a bit more perhaps about the tax there but otherwise you're very good. I felt relaxed, felt you knew what you were doing. Mm. Er there are some areas on that that, that that all of you picked up on that I actually thought that when, just dealing with that part of the C C Q like finding out about details and everything Mm. I knew that there was a problem and made a note of it erm that it was hereditary and that he was seeing a consultant, but there's other parts of the C C Q that would actually relate to that and go into it in a lot more detail Mhm. so I mean erm and that is the reason why I didn't go into wanting to get all the details at that point erm Fair enough. you know so there's, there's a lot of things that you bear in mind and you take notes on them as you're doing it Yeah. but they're not relevant to that so when you actually come to that you fill in all the relevant details Let's, yeah and I thought Cos you can jump around you see, you can Yeah. actually move on to the page, you don't have to go page two, page three, page four oh right John has problems, is that related to Yeah. your husband's back problem, could you give me a little bit more detail. Yeah. But I, I, I know that I missed out on the, the private education one because I should've come back on that. But good and relaxed you got all, every part of the structure there and that's the important part. like the the Thank you. wage rise Yeah I mean I thought you'd've made a note about oh I must come back to that later Yeah. But I, I think I mean But you know later Yeah. That's, that's it not, not at this point As Maggie's talking to me I mean you can see like my here I mean I've got all sorts, as you would use that, those pages for, there's notes as I'm going through of things that we were doing and er the university and, and everything like that and there's other parts of it that, I mean the, the things that you would come back to and elaborate more on Mm. but not necessarily within what we had to do today so. That's fair enough. So that was why. That was good. I'm not saying that I would've picked up on all those points because No. there were some of them that I had missed er completely but Okay. Right. Right. Thanks Maggie. Thank you. Thank you. You're welcome. So, nice atmosphere. Right I'm in downstairs now. Oh it's Bill now isn't it? It's Bill now yeah. Have none of you got your er whereabouts Right. On me way. Is there any coffee There may not be any left. you came in. I suppose you're ready to top yourself now are you? Who? Ready to top yourself now. Who me? I don't mind criticism as long as it's constructive. And you learn Well I thought you you did alright there. Pardon? I thought you did fine. was quite interesting. Pardon? What did your parents die of? Nothing serious I hope. Has he done this? No. No? Oh well I'd better not Oh good stuff We had horrendous problems with the tapes on Friday. We've not met before have we? Oh no sorry, Joan . Hi I'm Steve . Hi . Whereabouts are you from Joan? Leith in north Edinburgh. Edinburgh Ah so that's Ron isn't it, of Edinburgh? There's the two Rons. The two Rons? Yes Ron, Ron and Ron Yes. I don't know Ron but obviously I know Ron . The accent's a giveaway actually. Well i it could be Glasgow couldn't it? Unless I suppose if you come from up there you, I would presumably you would know that's an Edinburgh accent and Glas Glasgow has got a different accent has it? To be qui I can't actually tell the difference No. erm they all sound very similar to me. So have you been in this business before? No. So what, what, what was your background? I worked for Group Four before moving to Edinburgh, erm tt I was the accounts manager for the retail division in Group Four. Nothing to do with the prisoners though No, I wasn't gonna say anything about that. So how are you finding this? Erm doo de doo de doo . parts of it erm are not too bad and other parts of it I find a lot of them actually quite confusing erm Is that the technical side? Well some of it erm with some of it is, I mean it's like the taxation side and, and things like that I can understand quite easily because I'm used to dealing in that but when it comes to Excuse me. and the products so it's Did, did you have two weeks sort of training leaving before you joined the branch? Three weeks. Three weeks. I think because everybody else was erm already in erm and knew a lot more I sometimes Yeah. erm because erm completely irrelevant and as soon as I go away from it er erm you know there's times when it's quite confusing really. Erm I mean Martin, Martin's very good and he'll, you know, stop me there and, and, and go back over it and but it, it, the the was already there so it's already got you thinking about other things and, you know, things that were completely irrelevant and it confused me at times. But It'll all come clearer I'm sure. Maybe it's just a question of practising. Bill did you know that there's nothing on this tape? Yes. Right. Yes there's absolutely nothing on it, that's the problem we had Right. on Friday. I was just checking before I actually erm No no, no problem. went ahead. Are you ready then? Well it's thee and me. As ready as I'll ever be. I'm Steve , nice to see you. You're Bill are you? That's right, that's right. Yes. Cue action one two three. And we're doing exactly the same, it's just the, the first bit isn't it? First, first part. Right. Okay. Well I'd like to do the introductions Mhm. okay? Okay. Sorry. Mr Bill Friends Provident. Oh nice to see you. Nice to see you. Nice to put a face to a name. Erm thanks very much for the directions er you gave me, it's quite awkward coming off the main road there cos you really have to Yes it is isn't it? How long have you been here? Been here about five years. Yeah and was this of your own choosing or did your have to move to this particular area? Oh n no we've, we've been in the area for about fifteen years but we've, we needed a move up so er that's why we've come here. Was it an increase in the family that caused that? Well there has been an increase in the family, you're right, yes. Mm. Good, good. Er it's a lovely garden, who looks after the garden? Your Oh that's my wife Oh she's, she's the gardener. she's the one with the green fingers. Absolutely. That's great. Oh well that's fine. Er well before we proceed er there's two pieces of information I'd like to give you Mhm. the first one er explains that I'm er employed by Friends Provident and as such could only er recommend or advise on Friends Provident's products Mhm. that's the form there, you can read this at your leisure or you can read it later on Do you ever find that that makes life a bit difficult for you only recommending one company? Well i it can yes but i it can but at the same time it, we have a good detailed knowledge of every product and we only sell products to your needs. Mhm. Er the other thing is I'm going to give you a business card, if Oh fine, yes. at any time in the future you need er con to contact me er that's a point of contact you can Okay. you can have. Okay. Erm and proceeding to business you know tell me why did you come to Friends Provident in the first place? Erm it was a mailshot I received oh must be about twelve, thirteen years ago from Friends Provident. Yeah. And er you just er answered the advert. Yes that's right, looked like a, a good plan, I was looking for a savings plan and er I suppose it's one of those er fortunate circumstances, Friends Provident sent some stuff through, it looked good so I took it out. Oh that's good. Erm well in actual fact Friends Provident er actually built their bus business by recommendation Mhm. er we built our business by word of mouth introductions er which means that we very rarely advertise. This means that we can pass on the benefits to policy holders such as yourself by either reducing the policy charges or indeed er increasing the bonuses wherever possible. Oh I'm all in favour of that one. So you, you think that's a good way of building business? Oh yeah definitely. Well erm what I'd like to do during our course of discussions is er ask you for referrals Mhm. er of others that may benefit from this but only if and we er you find this of particular benefit, er to yourself. Mhm. Is that alright? Yeah perfectly reasonable. Great. Now erm the reason why I'm here is really to put a face to a name Mhm. er there's a new er thing started with Friends Provident by er following first call, I'm now responsible for looking after you as a policy holder, that's the first point Mhm. the second one is that er we want to make sure that the policies you do have are doing the job that they were initially designed to do, and it's thirteen years since you er took out the policy Mhm. so it's about time we actually saw that the policy was doing Yeah why's, why's it taken so long for Friends Provident to get round to doing this? Well it's the industry in general er feel that er this is, this is the proper way to go Mhm. I mean you've now had twelve annual statements, a piece of the policy has gone but you've never Mm. and we feel that this is the correct er way to do it. In addition what we're actually doing is we're building in this new fin financial planning guide which gives you the opportunity to just look at where you are just now and where you want to do in the future. Mm. Now er by doing that we actually use what we call a questionnaire Yeah well before you go any further Yeah. you talked about these erm these statements, these bonuses Yeah. would you be able to explain how they work to me? Well er let's, let's just look at the policy there er what type of policy do we have here? You call it, I think it's called a maxi-dowment plan. A maxi-dowment policy. Yes. Now that's technically it's a with profits policy which means that there are bonuses added annually to er to it Yeah that's the piece of paper you sent me isn't it? That's right. Now that one was for ten years Mhm. now you ha you must've converted to a unit linked policy by continuing after the period you Oh yes I, that's right I did, I got something from you to say I could exercise some option to, to switch it over and I didn't need the cash at the time Right. so I just rolled it into, to something else I guess. So you're actually continuing on the savings fund Oh yes. so we want to do is look at that one and we see that it's keeping on track and er it's doing the things that we actually want to do Yeah. that's good. That's fine. Now erm tt what I would like to do is er take a few notes in what we call this questionnaire. Now this is really a road mark in my opinion There's a lot of it, how long's this gonna take by the way? You've got It's gonna take stacks of paper in there. Yeah, yeah it, it does look frightening doesn't it? Mm. Er in actual fact er it's a multip multi-purpose form so that we cover everyone whether they be self-employed, employed, so on and so forth, so many of the actual parts to this may not be relevant to your situation Right. Mhm. okay? But er it should take about an hour, hour and a half. Erm yes er my, my wife will be back back in about an hour and a half's time so erm that's good timing actually. Good. Good. Er right, now there was just a few things that er I've got to ask. Erm now you're married obviously Mhm. and er is it Ste Steve your full name? Geoffrey Lester are the er middle names, family names. Right. And is that er J or G? G. G. G. And Lester as in Piggott. Now er your wife is, her full name please? Deborah Bridgit and that's B R I D G I T . D B R I D G D G D G I T that's unusual Yeah you usually spell it that's why I spell it because most people get my name wrong and get her name wrong and it's, it's a source of irritation to me. Well let's get on correct at the, at the outcome. Is, is there any unusual name? Was there er Who whose hers or mine? an ances ancestry? Oh yes yeah they're family names, yeah the Bridgit and the Geoffrey Lester are, are family names. Right, oh that's interesting. Now erm tt we have your date of birth but I'll just confirm that er just to make sure that our records our correct Mhm er twenty one eight fifty? Yeah your records are spot on. Grand that's, well that's fine, and your wife's date of birth? Yes her date of birth is the twentieth of the first nineteen fifty eight. Nineteen fifty eight, thank you. Er and do er do you both pay tax? Erm I pay tax, she's a non tax payer. She is a non tax payer. Okay. Erm what dependants do you have? I notice a photograph of your, your children there. Yes, yeah we've got three children. Three children. Names? Yeah there's Sam er Sam's the eldest boy er and he's nine years old And is that Samuel his name? Erm i it's Samuel yes sorry, yes it is Samuel. Yeah and any No no other names, no. Right. And Then there's Max, he's the er the middle, middle boy. And Max's full name? Er it's Maximilian. And er he's three He's three, fine. Thank you. And there's Harriet who is er well she's three months old. The new addition. Yes indeed. That's lovely. Right erm can we go back to Samuel and just ask his date of birth please. Oh well now you're asking me a tricky one. Erm it's rather embarrassing I can't, to be honest I can't quite recall his, his da I can't recall any of them. I always get my wife's None of them, none at all? date of birth right but the children, erm that's I mean, that's how old they are. Right well that's no problem er when your wife comes back in an hour's time don't no don't say that to her or I'll be in the dog house if I can't remember their birthdays. Okay that's fine. Are there any other dependants at all er financially dependent upon you other than your er immediate family? Erm In-laws? no I can't think of anyone. No. There's no one at all? Right. Erm what's the, your future intentions regarding the children? I mean obviously er you said eight six and three months er any future ideas as to looking to their education in the future. Er well there's a good state school here so er I mean it's one of the reasons we, we moved here, we wanted to get into the catchment area erm so I've got no, no thoughts about private education. Fine. But what about further education if they show an aptitude to go to university or college? Oh most definitely yes I, I'd like them er i if they're bright enough to go then er be very happy for them to, to go to university. Well this would be the ideal opportunity to look at that because obviously planning now for the future gives you an opportunity just as you've done with your maxi-endowment Mhm. built up a wee nest egg, at least there's money there to assist er Yeah actually that's that's a good point because I'm, I had something from you the other day your erm, you know the magazine that you sent Yes. round and it was talking about erm was it university fees Yes. and er actually that is something perhaps we ought to be talking about. That's something we could look at in the future because we can actually stagger the payments for that and it Mm. it matures on a year by year basis which may be of interest. Yeah I was thinking about, you know, fifteen, twenty pounds a month might be er a reasonable investment to, to put aside for the children. Right I'll just make a note of that. Thank you. Now erm the,wh if we go into your, the, the health, your health situation how er when was the last time you saw the doctor? Er last time I went to the doctor was when I hurt my back. And when was that? Er well just over a year ago. A year ago. Has that been a recurring thing or was it er was it just a one off situation? I hope it's a one off, I'm sure it is. You've never had any problems in, in, in the past? What with my back? With your back? No no that was, that was erm a com a completely er something which had never happened before Right. I was, I was just being foolish in, in picking up er one of the children and my back went. Mm. Your wife and, and her health apart from the pregnancy and the new arrival Mhm. three months ago, er how's, how's her general state of health. Oh she enjoys good health. No, no problems at all? No. Fine. Obviously during the pregnancy she was visiting the doctor so she would get a good check up. That's right. Yes. Ah that's fine. Do either of you smoke? Erm I, I smoke er a ci ci a cigar probably once every two or three months. And your wife, does she smoke cigarettes? No she doesn't. Not at all? No. Fine. Er what do you do for relaxation? Erm I like to visit the theatre, the cinema erm play a bit of tennis, squash Good. So you're qui quite That's about it really. quite active er as well as passive Well it sounds like a lot of things but, but actually getting a game of tennis in it can be quite difficult because you know the weather's turned against us now so Yes. you make an arrangement to have a game of tennis but the weather, you know i it's snowing or it's raining so a lot of them get rained off which is er quite sad. Oh that's a pity, yeah. Yeah. Er and what, what do you do for a, a living? Er what's, what's your occupation? Oh tel telecommunications manager. Telecommunications manager. Erm and what does that actually involve? Erm there are networks throughout the U K and Europe erm for my company and I have to make sure that er all the telecommunication systems are up and running. Right. Is that er er a central based or are you travelling around I do a bit of travelling, yes. Right er how many miles roughly per annum do you do? Mm well erm I do a bit of fly I mean do you mean flying? as a er as a fare paying passenger, you're, you're, you're not er doing that Well this is bu these are like business miles that I business miles Yeah. aye well I mean er er in, on the ca er in a car or something the mileage Oh in a car? Oh er probably about twenty two, twenty three thousand. Right. And the telecommunications manager is with whom? Who is your employer. Excon. Excon. And they're based? Erm well they're, they're based actually in, in America but I work for the U K division. And their head office is? In er Leatherhead. Leatherhead, right, that's super. Obviously your wife er with the new arrival she, she won't be working as yet No. has she any intentions of working? No. No. No. Coming to your er employer, what's your gross salary per annum? Tt er well it's thirty five thousand Does that include bonuses There's a few other bits and pieces to be added in to that. Right so there's, there's the basic salary of thirty five thousand? Basically thirty five. Er fine, thank you. Right erm and is there regular overtime involved? No there's n there's no overtime, I do get erm some performance related pay Right. er last year wasn't too much it was about two and a half thousand. And is there any er share participation in er Yes there is I've been, yeah I've been I've been buying shares er Excon shares in a share p er a share purchase That's a very sensible thing to do because Yes it's done brilliantly. Yeah because you're on well in some instances you can more than double your money Well we have done yes it's been very very good. Yeah and so I believe it's what, two hundred and fifty pounds per month is the maximum Mhm. I don't do, I don't do the maximum. How much do you probably about a hundred and fifty. Okay chaps that's fine thank you very much that's er fifteen minutes. Fifteen minutes! Yeah it zoomed through didn't it? Wow unbelievable. It is according to my watch anyway. Well let's see what Still haven't got your coffee Steve. God ! I'm gasping. There's some juice on the table. Yeah want some juice? Yeah I think I'll have to have a Here you are, that's a clean one. It's better than nothing. Can I go away and hide now? How was your journey this morning then? It was not too bad Alright was it? erm yeah, got stuck on the M ooh on the M twenty five for about thirty five, forty minutes, erm Heathrow was, the bit round was Heathrow was alright but it was Is that where the roadworks are? Yeah although in fact the roadworks were, were not slowing us down it was, it was the approach to the M three junction was, was really very bad but the erm the road the, the roadworks at Heathrow, we just sort of breezed through that. Oh. Oh that's right I got stuck there the other the other day Well I was expecting to be when I got there. when we went to erm Brentwood erm tt to er Salisbury. Ah! I'm not really supposed to say anything about about my Grecian two thousand Hello!stranger, what can we do for you today? Help me. What's happened? I've put on nearly two and a half stone Mhm. in weight in the last So I see. five months. What've you been doing in the last five months that's put on the weight? Mhm. And I'm permanently crying. Help. What's happened, has your appetite No. changed? No? No. And when I started putting on weight I and I'm still putting on weight. Right. Are you I'm actually about just over ten and a half stone now. Mhm. Your hair falling out? No. No problems with your hair? It's not getting brittle? No. No. Grey, but not brittle. Aye. Yeah. What about your skin, is it still? I don't heal as quickly as I used to. Mhm. Right. That's a terrible thing to say. No. No it's, it's not. I don't understand . You're not you're not losing a lot of blood anywhere? No. No? No piles, bleeding, or anything like that, no? No. Nothing like that, aye? What about your periods, are they stopped? No, the curse, it's still there, it's . You're still bleeding? Mhm. Is it a lot heavier Er now than it used to be, or is it just about the same? No, it's it's heavier, but it's a lot more painful as well. Right. Has anybody told you your face was getting very fat? Just my man. And you're getting baggy under the eyes. Am I? Mhm. N nobody else mentioned it? No. Take your coat off. other tests. You could be starting to be having trouble with your thyroid gland. Oh. Er have you noticed that you felt the winter colder this year than usual? I took the flu this year. Mhm. Which Unusual. is unusual, aye. When did your man notice that your you were different? That my face was getting fat? About three months ago. About Christmas time? Aye . Mhm, yeah, it would fit. But I wasn't eating or anything, I mean No, wouldn't have changed anything at that time. No. And I cut back on my intake, Mhm. and I'm still going And you're still going up. as well. as well. Show us your muscles. Er, this arm has phlebitis. Mhm. Well, I've had phlebitis in it. I'm not very good at giving blood. So I see. It doesn't like to come out. So I see. What I have to do is find a good bit. I hope you're good at this Doctor . No, I'm not. Not giving us a drop. You're mean, aren't you? Aye, I'm afraid so. The hospital Aye. the last time. They got it out the back of my hand. Very painful I know, but that was the last time. Let's see the back of your hand, let's see if And I've had . there's another another vein sometimes, in here. .It's not everybody that has one there, but you certainly do. Er stick your arm in there. Magic. Right, there you go. That's it. Okay. Stick your finger on there. That's a girl. All mod cons. Have you noticed any problems with your urine or anything like that, Ann? Stronger but I've not with anything anything like that. No problems ah. Come on. There we go the last wee drop. .Now, I'll have the result of this on Tuesday er Thursday. Mhm. Thursday hmm about twelve Ann. But the way things look to me, it looks as though your thyroid gland's beginning to slow down. And this is why you're whole lot's Mm. all beginning to puff up. Mhm. And your f your particular just under here. I see the difference in you under there. Mm. And your, your whole face is a bit puffed, but mostly round about there. And that, along with your tiredness all the time, Mm. that kind of thing. That's very very like what happens with the thyroid. When that starts to slow down. And if it is, there's no great problem with that, that's very straightforward, we can get that put right for you. Now, don't change your diet. Mhm. Right? Don't go buying anything at the chemist to try and lose weight, cos they won't work. Okay? Mhm. We'll get that sorted out, but we'll check this first to make sure there isn't anything else Ann. But it looks a fairly straightforward thing. Mhm. We'll get you sorted out, turn you into a human being again. a zombie. instead of, instead of walking about like a zombie. Aye, a heavy But er zombie. And right, er if you give me a phone about twelve on Thursday morning, Mhm. we should have that result back, be able to tell you what's happening. Okay? Mhm. We'll keep things right for you. Okay Ann? . Thanks. Right. Okay now. Cheerio. Cheerio just now. invitation from me, and also the Urological Society . Thank you. And now I introduce erm Mr to present his paper on the northern regions of . Thank you erm Mr Chairman. Er Mr Chairman, ladies and gentlemen I'd like to present the early result of an audit of of the prostate which has been performed over the northern region. Er the audit period spanned eight months starting April nineteen ninety one and ended on the thirty first of November. Twelve out of sixteen separate hospital sites within the northern region were included. One of these sites was a teaching hospital and the remaining eleven sites were a mixture of large and small district general hospitals. Erm the northern region audit preceded er the national audit er and has been presented by er Mr and its erm data collection differed from it in that erm all notes were reviewed at three months er by using a standard pro forma independently by two clinical coordinators and so would not be upon self by medical staff at each site. And all medical staff at each site knew what data was being collected before the audit started. W we have obviously collected a lot of data er from the audit and today I'm presenting the initial er early result. Our main aims initially have been to assess mortality and major morbidity arising from T U R P within the northern region and assessing also the inter-site variation for this. In our er assessment of major morbidity we have included a return to theatre, er a postoperative blood transfusion of, of more than two units of blood and the development of postoperative sepsis. We have also assessed written evidence in the notes of counselling for retrograde ejaculation. Er in our first assessments of mortality and major morbidity we would classify our consultants into three types, general surgeons with an interest in urology, district general hospital urologists and teaching hospital urologists. We have also looked at the effect of volume on er mortality and major morbidity by comparing sites where fewer than one hundred cases were performed during the audit period, sites where more than one hundred cases were performed and we have also examined the effects upon mor mortality of both admission types and histology. During the audit period one thousand four hundred and thirty one operations are performed and of them one thousand three hundred and ninety six were T U R P. The mean patient age was seventy one years and the mean weight resected was twenty seven grammes. The percent of patients er who were put into the audit erm varied from four to thirty five percent erm site for site. This shows the early postoperative mortality and we have defined early mortality as appearing at less than thirty days. The mean overall early mortality was point nine percent and the inter-site variation for this ranged from zero to three point eight percent. The late postoperative mortality, and we have defined this as death occurring between thirty and ninety days, was a mean of three point seven percent for the region as a whole and the inter-site variations for this ranged from one point seven percent to six point eight percent. would say that there were no differences in mortality rates when looking at the various classifi classifications and control . The early mortality for elected admissions was point four percent and this was found to be significantly lower than the early mortality rate for emergency admissions which was two point four percent, some six times higher. The late mortality rate for elected admission was two point nine percent and this again was significantly less than the er er late mortality rate for emergency admissions which was six point one percent. Examining the effects of histology, histological type, the early mortality patient with benign was point three percent and this was significantly less than the early mortality for those patients who had prostate cancer, which was two point nine percent, almost ten times greater. The late mortality rate for disease was one point seven percent and again this was significantly less than the late mortality for patients with prostate cancer, which was some four times higher at eight point four percent. A mean of two percent of patients were returned to theatre across the northern region after T U R P and this ranged from zero to seven point five percent. A mean of two point four percent of patients received a blood transfusion of greater than two units across the region and again this ranged from zero to six point six percent across the region. A mean of eight percent of patients developed postoperative sepsis and we have classified patients as having de developed postoperative sepsis if they have developed two out of three of the following, a temperature of greater than thirty eight degrees celsius,or a positive blood culture. The rate for this was zero to sixteen point nine percent across the region. You may have noticed over the last three slides that several of sites have had a zero er percentage registered and we certainly feel that in a couple of these sites this was probably due to poor note-keeping rather than a percentage. This slide shows the cumulative percent of early mortality and major morbidity. The dark areas on the slide are er, the dark areas on each bar at the bottom represent the early mortality rate. The hatched areas represent returning to theatre, the white areas represent blood transfusion of greater than two units and a hatched area represent patients developing postoperative sepsis. If it's expressed as a percentage of patients the bar on the left side represents those sites who performed more than one hundred cases during the audit period. There were five of these sites and in the tot in total nine hundred and twenty eight operations were performed over the five sites. This bar on the right hand side represents those sites where less than one hundred cases were performed during the eight month audit period, there were seven of these sites and they performed a total of four hundred and sixty eight operations. When we looked at the cu cumulative percentage mortality and major morbidity it was found to be significantly less in those sites performing more than one hundred operations, compared to those sites performing less than one hundred operations, during the audit period. In a mean of thirty percent of patients across the region there was evidence o well there was written evidence of counselling for retrograde ejaculation and this varied from zero to just under seventy one percent. We found that patients who were significantly younger er sorry we found that patients who were counselled for retrograde ejaculation were significantly younger er but we also found that marital status did not seem to have an effect on whether they were counselled for retrograde ejaculation or not. In summary, Mr Chairman, the overall mortality rate for disease, for T U R P, over the northern region was point three percent and this compares very well with the large published theories from America but we did find large inter-site variations for both mortality and major morbidity rates. We also er demonstrated that mortality and major morbidity rates were significantly higher in sites treating fewer than one hundred patients compared with sites treating more than one hundred patients. So we feel that there may be a volume effect. This difference could not be explained by the distribution of either histological types or admission types between the erm sites that had less than one hundred cases and those that had more than one hundred cases. We did find however that histological type and admission type overall had a significant adverse effect on mortality and overall we feel that written ev evidence of counselling for retrograde ejaculation was poor and was not acceptable. Thank you. Thank you Mr . We have time for several questions, I wonder if you'd be kind enough . Okay so it's more of a long term A long term solution benefit Yeah. So and our company tends to look at things more on the short term. Any other reasons for not training time factor Time You may not have the support of people around you because saying you've gotta train somebody on the list for instance, you've got to have a specialist to come in and do that so it's not something you do yourself. necessarily be able to to meet your requirement. So it's not always having the resources Yeah when you need it. I think as well though often say one thing don't they like they spend all this money on training Mm. and they have all these like really good ideas Head Office and area office and everything like it counts for very little unless you've got the support of the Yeah. and all too often erm people are taking off departments to do training but then it's the same old thing of well it's the needs of the business Mm. and you've got to get back down on the shop do it. Mm. So, you know, there's no point in having all these systems set up if you haven't got the support at the branch level for it. No. No I agree totally. Erm . There is coming out with the same old thing again. One thing about leadership through team work is that it puts a much greater emphasis on training for the purposes of delegation and the word that they use to describe that piece is empowerment. It's just that you see so much of it, not just like staff like training managers and everything, they're told to stick up and stick up for their training and at the end of the day it's oh well, it's the needs of the business and all that but aga the company this this . x amount of money to be a trainee Mm. and then they can expect them at the end of like x amount of time to be able to take over a department, then when it falls apart they're gonna be the one to take it. So it comes back to the short erm thing again Yeah and the short term goal. I think with with the trainee managers being particular, a new system of coming in whereby it will be it will be more difficult to abuse trainee managers. But how? Because they're going to have to, at the end of their period of whether it's a year or eighteen months, they will hopefully be qualified for a national vocational qualification level three and in order to gain that they have to be assessed constantly throughout their eighteen months, there's no kind of That's still not gonna, that's still not gonna take us away from, you know,sorry there's nobody on produce today, you're gonna sorry training is out of the window today and maybe, maybe the department manager on produce, I dunno goes sick or something and he has to take over there for two or three weeks and it's well don't worry you know you'll get back on to the training Yes. when Steve comes back. I dunno maybe I'm just cynical. national vocation I I really think that it's worse because they've not , whereas when I was a trainee you had your six weeks on produce, your six weeks on whatever in the branch of that now and they didn't have that, they haven't got any training plan, so they've got nothing to say well career, branch branch need here and I need to be here and I need to be here. And they're just left to get on to these fifteen projects whenever. They should have been supplied with the programme by the area office. Well they've, they've told me they've got to go a, a tutor it's another branch manager at a different branch. They've got to what? have a tutor and they've he works out the . . Wh wi what should be happening is that each each trainee manager within each branch has an assessor within the branch who will be one of the deputy managers, they also have a mentor within the branch. Erm and eventually all the depart all of the training assessors. So be held to go to another branch . They shouldn't be. I think the difficulty at the moment, because with that it's a trial, only a certain amount of people have been trained in those roles and trainees are moved around a lot . Pardon? reception . At the end of the day that trainee will not get his N V Q and what's going to happen is that branch managers be penalized if that happens. will they be penalized yeah that's true but how, how are they gonna be penalised. in their appraisals Because it's a national thing I mean it's something the company is hoping to go forward with the time it's a government initiative, if we are offering trainee managers when they join us an, an N V Q and they don't get it at the end of their training. One we're gonna have problems retaining staff and two we're not meeting erm I mean can they prosecute them? No you won't I mean there won't be criminal prosecution or anything like that. but erm, you know, they'll get a lot of trouble and there's a register, there's a natural register of assessors and if an assessor is not seen to be doing his job he'll get struck off basically and that will cause major problems then So w what are they going to do branch managers just slap his wrists in his appraisal and then More or less Well as i said earlier today . Appraisals are being changed are being rewritten basically so that yourself and branch managers are much more accountable for training development Yeah but what's going to happen to the branch manager? Nothing What sanctions are gonna be taken? Exactly I mean what are they gonna do Well for a year or something. I would have thought the threat that you're not going to get on because you've had a crap appraisal would be fairly significant and I think that most branch managers is is one trainee manager important enough to affect his whole appraisal? No it's not it's not it's not going to be the trainee manager, it's not gonna just be the trainee, it's going to be everybody all of the management team within the branch. becomes a m much major, more major part of his appraisal then, I mean branch managers tend to be fairly ambitious people, they're not going to want to be let down on that I don't think. Anyway that's something to speculate on. Any other reasons for not showing do you think? Some people don't train other people to do their jobs because they want to keep their jobs for themselves otherwise they start to lose their control. Alright so fear of loss of control. Do you think that's justified No bad reason not training. Yes. So I think you know the more you train people, that really gives you greater power doesn't it? Also what about the fear that somebody's gonna not gonna do it as well as you? Anybody come across that? Yeah Andrew. Yes Sometimes give it away and say right I'll teach you how to do this, when they keep coming back and saying what wh you're running out of time and you think give it you can it's quite common. It goes back to the short term thing, you fear that they don't do it as well. . I remember when I was a trainee manager erm I was never allowed to do the ever. I practically never looked at the . Basically because the produce manager who was training me was so scared of me making a cock up, he never never left my side when I was . I've got a trainee manager at the moment and I've been trying to he's just making such a balls up it's easier not to. That's how you feel anyway. . Yeah. But nobod nobody's ever gonna w learn anything are they? months.. this to a and you're totally in charge of it you won't really get to grips and get . I can see your point. lovely . I see you then Yeah, at the end Yeah but but at the end of the day how's that person gonna learn. I mean . sitting there and watching me Yeah I mean sitting there together possibly Yeah. for a greater length of time and having a go services . Just say no you're doing that I'm doing it. most times keep interfering all the time . Mm. Are a bit sort of. Right now we a lot more problem. Mm. It's a risk basically Yeah. Training people is a risk. at the end of the day. Yeah. When I was a trainee my deputy fresh foods went it with me, and like he'd sit there and he'd say right this is how you do it at first and then he'd let me do some and well I'd do them and he'd say why have you done that and I'd tell him and then he'd let me do it Mm. and check it afterwards. Mm. and that worked really well. So that's one way you think that people learnt,how how else do you think people benefit from learning? Well phrase that one by mistakes How do how do people learn? By their mistakes by making mistakes by somebody sitting down and explaining things to them showing you physically how to do it to. sitting with that's what they call it, isn't it?. Then showing them the results of what they've actually done. Mm yeah Okay. So it's a very much a two way communication spending time with them. . That explanation comes into it a great deal really. Erm can I have a volunteer please. Not gonna set fire to you. . Okay. Right Alex I have something I needed to tell you. I am in fact not from retail training. I am an alien from the planet Zog Okay . and I need you to tell me how to light a match. I'm an alien remember. Can you understand it? Can you understand my language? I speak plain English. Right, take that box put in flat in your hand You are not allowed to touch me or the box. . quite easy . Take your two fingers like that,no the other hand . box, difficult Carry on. pick it up . with your hand. Put it in the palm of your hand. Two fingers this hand, gently Hold the box. Hold the box. Step in the box . . S strike it on the edge. On the edge, on the top. Do the other end the match. Turn the match round right, do it again. Thank you. Again again Right, thank you very much . Sorry for giving you a hard time there. Okay what did we learn from that? I can speak zog. . Yeah apart from the fact that th about that. What did we learn from that? . Yeah. What did Alex assume with me there? That you understood. That you understood Yeah, that I understood What I wanted you to do straight away. The actions So we talked about the edge. We talked about pick it up. You assumed I would know to pick it up to like that and I grabbed it like that. Okay has anybody ever assumed things with people that they've been training? . What have you assumed wrongly? That they would pick up things as quickly or as quick as you have picked them up. Yeah. That they learn like you do. That they would, they would clone you, so if you think to er you were trained on something, you think well we should know that because I knew that. I mean that's probably a big mistake we all make. Right, so interpretate in different ways don't they? Yeah. People have got different levels, different speeds if you like. What else? The jargon when somebody's new you presume they know the word plinth Yeah. Another example of that, when a colleague of mine joined as a Trainee Manager, she was being shown round the branch by the Section and as they went, they were walking along she said oh this is the room and Susie thought, what's it, a buff and she said that's racking and Susie said what's the overs racking. She said it's where we keep the B line overs. . Which didn't help very much. I mean did anybody similar experiences yeah When you join the company there's so many J S words, I mean you just, you just, I mean half of it goes over your head, I mean it's get that go get that out of the buffer room. where the hell is that? Yeah. I think that's something we've got to be careful of. So it's jargon, it's assuming people will pick things up as quickly as we have and it's not recognising that people have different interpretations . I'm going ask you to do an exercise now and split you into groups of three. If you just sit, stay where you are thank you. table,you three. One of you in each group, who, put your hand up if you're good at making a paper aeroplane. . . One person in each group. One person in each group. . Right your training. You're the trainers. . We also need one person in each group who's crap at making paper aeroplanes. . Alright. . the other person is going to be the observer. Right. . Now. You've got fifteen minutes in which the trainer has got to teach the person who's making paper aeroplanes how to make them, alright, and tell them . I want the observer to note the training methods used what basically went on and at the end of the day I will see the person who's been in training make a paper aeroplane and I will judge these on two criterias . Firstly, on how far it flies and secondly on its aesthetic value. First can I just ask, as, as somebody who's building a paper aeroplane you got assumption whatsoever, so am I supposed to say I don't know the first thing about making a paper aeroplane, you you told me . That's something you have to explore for yourself. Right, . So if you just use one sheet of A four does . You can go out on the landing if you want to . Training method you could use is er . Yeah you can go out in the hall or go in the syndicate room . Fold it down . Yes. Do the same thing again . . Like that. Yes . . Yeah. . Okay right . like that yeah. . Well actually we're gonna . That's not very nice is it? . do it on my own I've gotta try excellent beautiful. . . . take it away . . . Are you waiting for this . No we've got, you've got until twenty five past. . I think we're all ready . If you're all ready go and get the other group. . . . Oh T Tony down there. . Spitfires . . Yeah I know. . . Would have gone first . . Group one Have we got to make one in front of you? No, no, you don't have to make one, using your aeroplane your prototype erm would you like to come and have a test flight. Okay who's the trainee? You are. . . Right Okay. Thank you. Group number two . Erm Okay erm thank you . This is a work of art this . Thank you, next one . Wally . Okay well the one that went the furthest was that one went further . Okay well I think in aesthetic terms they're both awful . . This one's a little bit of ornamentation. You've cracked it . . I think it is going to have to be a draw attractive but it didn't fly very far probably the aim of the game. The ones that flew are all designed with a serial number . the same I do believe . Their design's the same, their design's the same. Just to finish then, trainers, who was the trainer from this group? He was. I was the trainee, you were the trainer, weren't you. . No I was trainee you you were teaching. You were teaching. Who was teaching who. . Alex you were . The observers, what happened, tell me, what what happened . The first thing explained exactly what the process was going to be Right. Then he actually made a paper aeroplane so that she had an example in front of her that she can look at to see what she is aiming for. Mm mm. Erm and then what he did was, he they went through it together and he showed her what to do and she followed him and and as she did things right he praised her and gave her feedback and said she'd done it correctly and then then when there were things didn't understand she questioned him and then he clarified her. Mm. It worked well. Okay thank you. What about the rest? Next next observer. made an aeroplane very quickly first which I think was his big mistake because he then tried to explain to how to make it and kept wanting to touch her aeroplane and you've basically I think the mistake you made basically was . He he didn't make one at the same time as, you know, to actually show the folds and that . to get both . exactly half way through to changing design, so it was nothing like . Okay. What about the next erm. to say . They made one together Yeah. and followed all the instructions, and, she wasn't sure she asked and then make one on her own and then . Right thank you. . Next . We made one together, one each in step by step so we showed 'em what to do and then if you weren't sure you asked or if he wasn't doing it right so they did it together technical erm situation . . bit complicated . How about the next group, next observer Yeah, they did it together erm step by step erm it was Okay she questioned if she didn't know what we were saying erm wasn't that specific but then she made one herself following his instructions. Okay thank you and what about the last group. Yeah that was good, similar sort of thing really, showing sort of thing by example. Mm. Made one at the same time together. Mm mm. Erm erm they just went through it like that and then he gave her instructions on how to fly it as well, how to throw it Right. and erm practice at actually making it . Okay so there's lots of showing somebody, actually demonstrating how something is made then doing it together step by step and as you say follow up with going through the whole stage not just making the plane but actually demonstrating how it works. Alright, I mean you said there that people tended to ask questions if they didn't understand. Did any of you actually say at the beginning, if you have any questions while I'm going along, please ask? no mean you're all quite an observant bunch here Yes. So you all took the initiative to ask questions as you go along without necessarily being invited to. Some people won't do that. Some people would feel silly if they're asking questions . did that right I think that that's a good point to remember when you're training somebody. What are the general points from that.. Praise. Praise? Did did praise you? he did when I wasn't acting thick. Right. . . So he was making you feel as if you were getting somewhere . . Finally, then . if I can just have your attention for a moment There are various steps when you're training somebody they go through a number of steps. The first one is what we call unconscious incompetence. In that when somebody has just joined into the store for instance, joins the company, they don't know what they don't know. Okay so that's unconscious incompetence. The next stage is when they get to conscious incompetence. Okay so they, they know what's expected of them but they would without having had the practice or the experience are still at an incompetent stage, they still are unable to carry out the job. Thirdly, people reach a stage of what we conscious competence in that they're very aware of what they're doing and they're doing it correctly but they're still at that stage where they're fairly new and they're very conscious of what they're doing. Lastly, which is something we all reach eventually, hopefully, is what we call unconscious competence, when you know how to do something so well that you do it un without thinking, it's like driving. Teaching somebody to drive when you've driven yourself for a number of years is really hard. Thinking about the various stages you go through and then once you've reached the level of department managers at, on a lot of issues you tend to be at this stage but it's important to remember that a number of your staff may be down here somewhere. What I'd like you to do just for the last ten minutes is to think of a member of staff you have who has a training need and think about how you will go about training them and the methods that you will use. Okay to try and improve their performance. So if you could just you've got. If you could just jot down a few ideas that. Can I use this trainee manager? Yes, yes Erm one once you've done that if you could give in diaries for the day and then your time is your own. There are handouts at the back the ones on that side are the ones from this afternoon there are some if you want a result of the really really good for train good handouts there so I would recommend you have a look. . . So there's the . . because . . . . . . . . . . . . . . If you have any . . . . . . . Who were the winning group by the way? . Who won, which group was the winning group . . . Which group won the aeroplane? . Oh right, who was the two groups then? You, was it you? . . It's a bit out of order . . So where's the black ones?. . . have we got all of that one? . paint brush pot. . . . . I'll see you tomorrow morning, got to do a shift. Yeah. . Right I'll the erm . . A word gets around the famine is over and after the tragic experience of loosing her family, her three men in her life, her husband and her sons, nobody starts to consider the situation again, she's alone now in a foreign, a strange land, surely the only sensible thing for her to do would be to return to her own people in Bethlehem, they say news comes through that they've been a succession of good harvest, well of course there was gonna be good harvest, god hadn't forsaken his people, although they had sinned, although they had done what was wrong, he hadn't forsaken them, gods not in the business for forsaken people, he's long suffering, he is faithful, he keeps his covenant from one generation to another that he hadn't forgotten the people in Bethlehem and he had sent them through and he had provided good harvests those who had remained in Bethlehem during the famine, they'd only suffered for a short time, perhaps enough time to bring them to their senses, to bring them back to god, now the suffering was forgotten as they revelled in a plentiful supplying in abundant harvests Naomi on the other hand she knows want now, she's suffering bereavement, she's suffering poverty, she's suffering remorse, there's nothing for her in Noad, there's no rest, no joy, no provision, nothing that could meet her needs what a pity she had wasted there those ten wasted those ten years, ten long wasted years in her life now she comes to a decision whatever the cost and there is a cost, she's gonna have to eat humble pie, how are they gonna receive her when she goes back but she comes to that decision that no matter what it costs her, she will go back to the place that was chosen for her by god, her inheritance of him It always to our cost when we under value our inheritance, do you remember the story of Jacob and Aesop and how Aesop despised his birth right, the inheritance that was his, and Illuminarc and Naomi had done the same, and you and I can do it so easily, leaving, forgetting, not entering in to the inheritance that is ours in Christ, we do it to our own costs, and so she goes through that I'm gonna go back, I'm gonna take up my inheritance, I'm going back home. You know sometimes the way forward is backward, there are no short cuts with god, if he's leading along a certain path and were disobedient, there's no way we can opt out of it and join the trail further along, he doesn't allow it, its back to where we left it, that's were we've gotta get back to, we can't skip an experience, we can't miss any thing out, we've got to go back to where we start, where we were when we left the trail and Naomi has to do just that to go back to Bethlehem, that's the way forward for her, and you see because we all, we always find this if we are really children of god, then we can never ever be satisfied away from the will of god, there's nothing else that meets our need, its god will or nothing, you know, when we know frustration in our lives, when we know sort of the, these annoyances and, and, and, and er sense of frustration there, its not because god is leaving us that way its invariably cos we have actually gone out of gods will because he's will is not frustrated, its satisfying, can I just, it will only really be headings this morning, just leave us with three brief headings in this little incident that we'll read or we, we won't read the whole passage but its, er in the remainder of the, or more or less the whole of the remainder of the first chapter tha that the cost was involved and then the choices that were made and then the commitment, the cost that was involved Naomi had to pay something, you see before she could return to Naomi she had to con , before Naomi sorry could return er to, to Bethlehem, she had to acknowledge she'd done wrong, she had failed, she had sinned, she had to acknowledge she had made a mistake now in fairness to Naomi she did it and she excepted her responsibility, she didn't try and shift the blame on to she didn't say well er my husband brought me here because it was a decision that she had parted, it was a choice she had made as well and so she, she excepts her responsibility, she excepts her blame and she goes to return so there was, there was this sense of confession and, and confession can be costly when we've got to admit that I was wrong, I did wrong, I was mistaken, I went the wrong way that could be a costly mistake and, and, and er costly experience for us to go through, but surely the, the true sign of repent is that we do acknowledge our sin, we acknowledge our failure, that we acknowledge what it means to god, we can't shift that blame onto somebody else then also consider not just the cost that Naomi had to pay in going back, but also there was a cost for Auper and for Ruth as well as Moabias there would be little joy for them in Israel, they were foreigners, they were strangers, there wouldn't be much hope for happiness for them, there would be very little likeliness for them ever getting married in or remarrying er in, in Israel, they wouldn't be able to worship there own god, they'd be taken from one culture to another, there'd be taken from one language to another, what was it gonna be like for them, alright, perhaps whilst they were living with Naomi perhaps she could pull a few strings for them, but what happens when she goes and they are left by themselves and yet it would appear that with Naomi making her decision to return that they too these two daughters in law they decided to go to Bethlehem with her and it tells us that they set out together but perhaps they hadn't thought it really through because their not totally committed to us and as they come towards the frontier and their gonna pass into in, back into Judah with their few miserable possessions that they've gathered together, Naomi again considers the consequences facing these two young women, Auper and Ruth, they continued with her, as she pleads with them to go back home, Judah is no place for a foreigner, Judah is no place for somebody to come unless they are part of gods people, and I'm reminded of again of what it tells me in, in the book of acts, that in the early church, that people were actually frightened, frightened to join with the disciples, they were frightened to join the church, there was no room for, for stragglers, there was no room for hangers on, there was no room for those who went just because they thought it was gonna be the next, the in thing to do, but folk were actually frightened of joining because they knew they had to put their lives right, they knew they had to live holy lives, they knew that god had to be lord and master in their lives and unless they were willing to do that and be committed to him they were actually frightened of joining and one of the great weaknesses of the church today is that it becomes and it can becoming our thinking and nothing more than just something we join, something we belong to, something we go along to er as like a club, like an association, but that's not the picture we see it in the New Testament, it is a very exclusive body, it is a very exclusive grouping, a grouping of those who have committed themselves to Jesus Christ and that's why not every body is a member of the local church, not every body who goes to church on a Sunday is a member of a church to Jesus Christ now they know if they are, but other people may not know, they know and the lord knows, I know if I belong to him and he knows if I belong to him other people may not, I can put on the act, I can look as though I'm playing the part, I can go through the routine, I can, I can, I can fool every body, but he knows and I know, and he knows and you know and so Jesus said not every body who says lord, lord on that day will I acknowledge and recognize and so for Ruth and Nao er yes Ruth and Auper it was gonna be different of course for them as foreigners in Judah especially when Naomi goes and she pleads with them go back home, Judah is not place for Moabias, she knew what it had been like to be a foreigner, she knew what it had been like to be an alien land in an alien culture in a different religion with a different language she had known the bitterness of it all, she pleads with them go back home she prayers for them the lord bless you, the lord you know be gracious to you and so on, but they refused and again Naomi puts it to them, to please go back and Auper reconsiders and she takes the counsel and advice of her mother in law but no so Ruth and Naomi turns and says look your sister in law's gone back, she's gone home, you go as well , you can't do it, its a too greater price for you to pay, its a choice you mustn't make, a decision you mustn't make, your gonna have poverty, your gonna have loneliness, your gonna have hardship. I'm sure that Ruth searches her heart, she, she may of made her decision lightly way back to go with Ruth er, to go with Naomi but not now, its a heart searching decision she makes, the choice before her, do I go back or do I go, do I go on, do I go back to Moah with its familiarity with all the things I am aware of or do I go on into the unknown with my mother in law and with her god Auper makes a choice and she goes back and Ruth had, Ruth says no and she makes the commitment and she says there, in verse sixteen, do not urge me to leave you or turn back from following you, for where you go I will go and where you lodge, I will lodge, your people should be my people and your god my god and its those last few words that makes all the difference, your god will be my god, I will not be a stranger there, I will not be an alien there, I will be part of your people, and the only way she could be part of Naomi's people was for Naomi's god to be her god, that was the thing that kept, that was, that was the common denominated should all of Naomi's people, because they all belonged to and Ruth says I commit myself to him, he will now be my god, and therefore your people will be my people, your home will be my home, your destiny will be my destiny the way is clear, she makes that greatest decision of her life, a decision that will affect the whole of her life but its not as say a life decision is a commitment now, we, we, we are always confronted, day after day we are confronted to make decisions, some of you make decisions and were not too committed about them, and if things alter they will change our minds, not just a ladies prerogative to change her mind, men do it as well and things happen and we think oh no well, I won't go through with that I'll change my mind before its too late, but here Ruth she is not just making a decision, she is making a total commitment, a commitment that is worth time of the whole of her life, to promised to be loyal to de to Naomi and her deceased husband, she promises loyalty to Naomi's race and the people of god, but above all she acknowledge's Naomi's god and her willingness to follow him to the end, you know this, how she finishes of this commitment where you die I will die its to the end its to the end of my life, I will not walk out of it and even after you've gone mother in law, even after you are dead I am still committed to that decision, this decision I am making today where you die I will die, there I will be buried, and here she sorts of puts this solemn vow to this commitment, thus may the lord to do me and worse if any thing but death parts you and me. Nao Naomi realizes there's no point talking about it now, the dye has been cast the decision has been made, the commitment has been entered into, whatever the cost she was going gods way, there was nothing more to be said about it we find that a de a decision made before god and we all make those decisions, means nothing at all unless were determined to carry it through, whatever the cost may be, three women here make their decisions before god, they make their choices, Naomi she chooses to return to Judah once again and enjoy the inheritance god has given her, Auper she chooses to return to her own country and her own god, as far as were concerned that's the end of the story, but Ruth she chooses, she expresses her faith in the one true god, she turns her back on the old ways and decides to follow gods way, no matter what the cost, she would of said with Joshua, but as for me and my husband were gonna serve god, whatever the cost, I dunno what'll be and she didn't know what she was letting herself in for, and the, I counted it, although I don't know what it is, I counted that cost, I'm willing to pay it and Jesus said that that is the acid test of disciples, said to count the cost and weigh it up and Ruth had done that, then to make their decision and because if we make a decision without counting the cost, without weighing it all up, like Auper you'll go back, it won't last, there is that choice for every one of us day by day, who will we serve, not to be like Joshua, its for us, never for any body else, I will serve the lord because and this is the reason for it, not because you've done nice things for me, I will be your saviour because he is god, that's the reason for our serving god, not because he blesses us because he blesses people who don't serve him, blessing is not exclusive to gods people, blessing, god blesses across the board, god is generous he's gracious, he causes the rain and the sun to shine on the just and on the unjust, blessing is not the ground for serving god, but because he is god that's sufficient reason for our committing ourselves to him. Let's just sing shall we as we close, whilst were singing were gonna take up our morning offering, its number one ninety seven, one hundred and ninety seven an element of commitment in this song, one nine seven, well stand to sing. Starting a baby isn't always easy, but nowadays doctors and scientists offer a range of assistance. So, are we grateful? Or do test tubes, sperm banks and surrogate mothers bring more problems than they solve? The desire to conceive and bear children is a strong one in many women, not all of them in conventional relationships. Reproductive technology now allows human fertility to be assisted in a variety of ways, but such progress can bring difficult decisions for women, and their partners, for doctors, scientists, and law makers. Today, one hundred women discuss some of these decisions and try to identify who's body and who's baby we're talking about in different situations. Let me start with a vote, do you welcome advances in reprod , in reproductive technology, as far as you know about them, do you welcome advances in reproductive technology? Button one for yes, and button two for no. And amongst this hundred, ninety two say yes. Only eight say no. So of the ninety two, why? Who voted yes, and why? Yes? I'm not married and don't have any children and I would love to have children and if I found out that I couldn't have any I would do anything to have them. But I think that you have got to regulate these things and choose couples, like you may, as you do for adoptive children and not, just like throw in anybody these things have got to be controlled. Right, so you have some reservations already about what you know is available. Yeah. Who else said yes? Yes? Well I feel it's the right of every woman that wants a baby to know what it's like to hold her own baby in her own arms. No matter what i she has to go through. Yeah, how she gets it. Any other yes's? Well of course there are other yes's. Yes? Erm, I have children of my own, that I had naturally and I said yes, but with reservation because erm I I've often wondered in the case of a handicapped baby er, that was born to a surrogate mother and the surrogate mother wanted to keep it simply because it was handicapped, or if she knew she was gonna have a handicapped baby the amniocentesis test and if she wanted to abort the baby but the mother-in-waiting didn't who would decide? There were eight no's, would anybo , would any of the eight no's like to explain why they don't welcome advances? Would any of you like to, yes? Erm, I think really because it's actually a sign of erm self centredness Mhm. in some women, it sounds very nice they would do anything to have a baby but what about the baby, and what about the baby's rights? You know, you're sort of turning the abortion argument on it's head, that er in an abortion you can say it's my body, I have a right to decide, and this baby that dies is never going to be there to question that decision, but in this type of situation the baby's going to be there and okay, you'll get so many who will just accept their situation and won't question it, but you're always going to get some, or even one who will say I want to know my origins, I want to why I was conceived this way, why I was born this way, why, I have two mothers, that maybe a surrogate mother and a natural mother? Erm, that's just human nature. Yes, hello. I'd like to, just like to say that a woman erm, who cannot have children erm and re has got to the end of the road, no medical mirac , miracles can help her, erm, if surrogacy is the only option for her then they've, these pe , couples like myself have gone through such a long erm struggle to get where they are that any child that's conceived is gonna be a wonderfully loved childed and explained, everything's explained to the child as he or she grows up. There's absolutely not doubt in my mind that, my mind that a child born erm with a special background will be treated, and feel special about it and will appreciate and understand the the erm the background of the case and and the miseries of th their parents have gone through in orve , in order to have a child. You said, that's your experience? Yes. Yes. I am a surrogate parent. So when you say you went through, what what did you go through before you embarked on on surrogacy? Erm, well my particular case was cut and dry, no medical miracles, as I say, could help me because I had lost a baby at six months during the labour and erm in order to save to my life I had a hysterectomy so there was no possibility of I V F, etcetera, etcetera. Adoption was out of the question in this country I think in Grampian region there was four babies for Mm. adoption, and possibly a thousand people wanting those four babies! So it's erm out of the question to, basically, to adopt, unless you're early twenties and have maybe perhaps eight years to wait. Mhm. Surrogacy was the last option. Erm, we went through an enormous stressful time trying to make the decision, but in the end decided if if this is the only way then we'll we'll we'll try it's either that or be childless and I can't And what was actually involved in your case? Did somebody else bear er,yo your child which was the product of what My husband's sperm. Yes. At that, at, at at that time we're only talking a few years ago Aha. Host surrogacy, I V F surrogacy was not done in this country erm so we ha we made the decision to go ahead as it was with partial surrogacy. It's either that, or the United States, which is erm on a commercial basis and very expensive. So erm the surrogate was artificially inseminated herself erm er, it took us seven months to achieve a pregnancy, and during this time we got to know each other very well Mhm. and, a relationship built up, especially between myself and the surrogate and life was devastated when we parted and my daughter will always know how much her genetic mother loves her and how much I love her obviously. It sounds to me when you talk about the misery, and I'm sure it must have been miserable, I don't doubt that for a minute, but when you talk about this misery and everything you went through, it's a wee bit like the old fashioned way, you know, everyone was saying my God, what I went through, you know to have you! You know the misery was from stems completely, entirely, hundred percent from the the greyness of the law in this country. We were unsure as to what what what we should do, what we shouldn't do,wi will we contact social work, will we tell our doctor,wha how how do we do this that and the other? Erm, the surrogacy act was very ambiguous. It's from fear of what will happen, because you're doing something you're comfortable with you're proud of erm a and at the same time you don't know how erm these authorities are going to react. That's the reason for the misery! Not between the relationship. Jackie? I'd just like to say that you can have two mothers and that you can two mothers quite happily, and that when you talk about women having the right to reproductive technology that includes single women, lesbians, not just heterosexual women. Erm, I think that it's a right that should be open to all women. Ann? I can totally agree with the woman here just now, what she's saying but the woman at the back of me just now, she'd said about lesbianism, this is a different thing entirely. For two lesbians to go and have a surrogate mother and bring that baby up is a different thing entirely! This lady here, yes! Yes, I totally agree with what she did. Yeah but I ta when I think love I mean a women to women thing but it's not erm lesbianism or No , no, no! I was speaking about the lady in the back. Jackie? Just, yes it is, it's a very different thing, but it's still very valid. If two woman in a relationship want to have a child then there is the technology to have a child that's their right to go ahead and have one. I don't think that erm, whatever womans sexuality doesn't erm mean that she's not gonna be a good mother, she could be a good mother, she could, you know just depends on the person, on the woman. Th there's a whole lot of issues here about erm, how the birth mother felt and whether she has Mm mm. encouraged or put under pressure erm, I would think that with a lot more talking we might actually be able to work out something between surrogate mothers and nurturing mothers, they can do it with open adoption, other countries were learning how to do it. I I think we're all very interested in what's been said but I'm very concerned that we're not actually talking about those silent majority of children Mm. who do not know who their genetic parents are. Mm. The thousands of children who are born every year, we don't even know in this country how many there are, because the figures the can't be kept, er er and these tend to be children erm born of er, anonymous donors and and I think that as a society we are wreaking such problems for the future, we're creating secrets for families, and I would really like to hear from my fellow women here about that. Mhm. Yes? It is storing up misery for children, and I also think these people went through a lot of misery to get what they wanted. It's I want! So, in the first place it's selfish, second place, or maybe the first place, it's unnatural and who are, who are they thinking about? They want a baby they're not concerned whether it's going to have spina-bifida or have som , they are looking forward for a perfect baby. The result is what, ten to fifteen percent is successful, sometimes they have to go and have the thing done all over and over again. Now, my view is it's entirely wrong it's cheating, it's doing everything wrong! Nature intended us to be as we are, and we shouldn't tamper with reproduction. I think it's wonderful, the strives are to be made in medicine and they should make in all their research into making the people who who are here able to enjoy a good life and fulfilled life Thank you. and not make other don't start reproduction. I mean, we are not a a, an endanges , endangered species! Can I ask why it's storing up misery for the children? Now I'm lucky, I have four children no problems as such, and I have great sympathy for anyone who goes through all this to have a child! If they're doing it for the right reasons, like the lady over there, a loving couple with a child. I would go against just any woman having the right to have a child. Ca an I just say one quick thing,th I I, I'd really like to reply to this lady, she said that it's it's, we're talking about I, me all the time, but and that we're selfish. Why are we more selfish, please tell me why am I more selfish than yourself or your daughter or your other colleagues to want a child? Why am I se more selfish? Well , I'm not, I just think it's selfish in going in this roundabout way and this is why you're so distressed because you know you're doing something that is wrong! Oh no! I have done something which is a wonderful, wonderful thing that I'm completely comfortable with! Can, can we answer this question about why, why we're stirring up misery? Jennifer, you raised the question, so you can have first shot I'd like to but I'd like to hear other views on this as well. but the people are actually er, sidetracking the issue! Mm. I didn't say that, that surrogacy was storing up trouble for the future Mhm. nor reproduc duc tu tu tology, but what I am saying is that secrets store up trouble, and when doctors are advising, er childless couples not to tell where their children come from, that is the the trouble that we're storing up. We've been through the whole thing with adoption! Yeah. Penny? Mm. Yeah. If you say that children have got the right to know their father does that extend to the abuser and the rapist? I mean, some people are in a Yes, that's right! great deal of misery because they know who their father is! Mm. And I think being a father means something quite different than dep , from depositing some sperm in a tube or in a woman! Hann? Well I'd just like to challenge the whole idea of this right of every woman to have a child! As far as I'm concerned, and I've through the whole scene of infertility, motherhood is about responsibility and privilege, it's not about rights, and it's responsibility that lasts a lifetime and it's tremendous privilege to be a mother! But that privilege maybe denied to some people because biologically they are not perfect, in the way that other people are not biologically perfect, and I don't think we can demand the right to Mm. have exactly what we want in life. And if you go down that road in every area of life, I think we're storing tremendous trouble for ourselves as a society! Judith? Why should we refuse medical treatment to people who are suffering medically compared to other people who say, who need a heart transplant, or a kidney transplant? They've just as much right to have medical treatment of what is available! Christine? I think, I'd like to just take up the point about secrecy because I am involved in talking to couples where the, there is a basic problem of male infertility where th the husband of the couple, or the partner of the couple is unable to father a child because he's not producing any sperm, or not producing enough sperm and that couple come to us for help and advice Mm. they desperately want a child between them and to them a child that is born by the mother but is from a different origin than than the partner is is the next best thing an , and most of the couples, and we don't advise them that this should all be kept secret, we leave that decision to be something that they will erm, come to later on when the child is older, and many of these couples will decide that this child will be brought as their own biological child, and I don't really see that as being any different than many relationships where children are conceived out of wedlock, or out, with the relationship and people make a a a decision to keep this erm to themselves. Nan? I would like to hear an opinion for somebody who can't afford the twelve hundred to two thousand pound that it takes for surrogacy? Well now you've brought up another er, element which is the cost of They're denied the chance though aren't they? They're denied the, they're denied the It's not just surrogacy, of course, that costs, I mean a a a lot of er But did it? But did the a lot of surrogacy cost? Pardon? Er, did surrogacy cost? It, it depends on, on your individual circu , if your sister has a baby for you, she's unlikely to say that I would be recompensed for my loss of earnings. It's a, it's a you know i i can be from zero to going to the United States which is thirty thousand pounds! In fact, I was Ma Mary? I'd like to say I was a They don't do that. surrogate mother and I wasn't paid a penny for doing it! But I did it through the love,fo , that I had for the couple, and that because they had waited sixteen year before they eventually found out they couldn't have children! And before they were And they've now And is it got a seven year old child who I keep in contact with, I've got regular photographs coming, I keep into contact with er the now the mother and we all get on really well! Was this a couple you knew? I met them through an advert. Cos they advertised when before it became illegal to advertise. I bu but no money changed hands. Nothing. They paid me expenses which was expenses to hospital and I think gave me about thirty pound for maternity clothing and that was it. And how did you actually, I mean, did you do all this er er er, as it were in an amateur way or did you do through any kind of profe ,wi with the help of doctors or We were, I think, the first ones in Britain to do it and it was all based on trust and if we made mistakes, we made mistakes! But we got through it in the end and their happy, and I'm happy! I mean No regrets? a parent, I have two other children, I've had one since then as well. I've no regrets. If I wasn't so old now I'd do it again! Perhaps you'll er Now, what do you think, what do you think of that? Yes? I think we should discuss money in a, in a wider context Mhm. we've been talking about individuals and what they want, and we live in a context in which if people want a thing and the , and we feel that they should have the choice particularly if they have the money that if to , if you look at it in a wider context there are seven million children living on the streets in Brazil! Part of the reason that they're living on the streets is because of the financing of a foreign debt. There are women who are being dragged out of their houses in the middle of the night to have forced abortion! There are children starving all over the world! Now th er er these facts are not unrelated. Well I feel erm really that we should have a little bit more compassion amongst ourselves as women and when I had my first child I had a very good friend who went through the pregnancy with me who is waiting for a child to arrive by adoption, and she had the baby a couple of months after I had my baby. And, at that time I realized what my friend had gone through, and I knew what I had gone through, and I would willingly have gone on having babies for erm out of compassion for people who couldn't have children and I would have done it much more naturally! I would have used my husband ! And and I, because er, I enjoy being pregnant, but I don't enjoy too much bringing up babies I would be ve ve very happy to to have born children because I was very happy, and very healthy and I would have liked, loved to have shared that with with the lady over there! Yes? Up there? Erm, I'd like to go back to some of the comments that were Mhm. made earlier on about erm women approving of one woman doing one thing, and not approving another woman doing another. Erm, I would like to know who is setting the controls Yes! erm, on women's reproduction? Erm, and on what values are they based? Because, I approve lesbian mothers, I approve of single women having children, I also approve of surrogacy, my concerns are about the technology side, who's controlling it and what's, what are women's bodies being used for? Mhm. And you know, I don't want to enforce my morals onto someone else, or my ethics, and I really would like to ask people don't try and do that to other women either! Who, who does decide who is eligible for erm whatever reproductive te , technology? I mean, is it is it harder for for single women, for lesbian women to get access to the available technology, what experience does anyone have? Yes? Well, nowadays, since they brought out the new law I think lesbian women and single women are being discriminated against because they see there's some erm mythical er need for there to be a father figure around. And so you sa , you don't think that's fair? No. Yes? It's difficult enough for, for married couples and er for couples, so I mean it must be very difficult for for single and lesbian women. Iza? We're all discussing the rights of women Aha. lesbians, any women to have a child and, I'm just wondering how many of us are thinking about the rights of, of the child? It surely is th the cha , a childre , a childs right to be conceived within the family background and a loving relationship between a husband and wife! Well I'm a single parent and I was left pregnant by my my boyfriend, I didn't have a choice in the matter of having I was quite happy, I was in love, I was quite happy, but I left, on my own, with a child so where does that leave me? You know, I'm bringing up the child the best I can, she has plenty of love I love her very much! She's quite happy. So, you know, it's not everybody that has a loving relationship behind them. Well I think it's it's up to the people your the extended family to support people in your position who do have a child like that. I have several friends and relatives who are in that position, two who have been left by a husband and it's absolutely not ideal for a child but compensation can be made by a loving relationship with extended family. Susie? Hardly! There are, there are other ways to come by children, erm I have a relationship with a man who has three children erm he's been married, he's divorced, separated, and I don't feel that I'm replacing the children's own mother, I feel like I'm not even stepmother, I'm just their friend, get on very well with them, and we we share I share mothering, if you like, with their own mother whom they see. Erm So you did feel a great urge to to conceive or bear a child yourself? No, I mean, strangely enough that was one of the things that almost put me off the relationship in the first place because I'd never had any desire to be a mother. And yet, when I met them I thought these are not children that I have to think of as children, they're people and they're fascinating! Carole? I was just going to say that the the the social stigma already attached to erm unmarried mothers Mhm. and so a woman having a child on her own without a partner I think that's that's the biggest fear that th erm that society sees in artificial insemination of any kind. Surely it's part of the whole socialization process of women. I mean Mm mm. we are trained from a very early age that fundamental of femaleness is is reproductive capability and if we don't carry out that reproductive capability we'd lose part of our identity. I don't personally believe that, but I think that's what is forced upon us by society. I'd like to make another general point Mm. because it's come out a lot in this discussion that is there's a big gap between the biological, biological and medical knowledge that's accrued in the last ten or fifteen years, and the actual social consequences of these developments and there hasn't been enough discussion and consideration of what will happen. Now, I don't subscribe to the slippery slope view Mhm. that you know what, we're go going to be overwhelmed by these erm changes in, in technology, if you like but I do feel that there is a need to discuss changes in relationships in society, you know, what happens when your grandmother's actually your mother as well! Barbara, you wanted in? Yes, what concerns me a bit about surrogacy is someone was saying earlier that people will pay for what they want, but what if what comes isn't what they want? Mm. If a child is born with a disability and the parents then don't want it. Mm. What happens to the child? What right does that child have? Up there. Yeah, I think people feel uneasy about the whole subject of surrogacy because we know that sometimes rich women have paid poor women er, for surrogacy or adoption and I think we want that choice to be a free one, in which case we have to raise their material circumstances so no one is forced to sell their baby, just as no one should be forced to sell, you know, their blood! Well, I'm the mother of test tube twins. I was successful at having them. There's an awful lot of females who go through the programme and get nowhere or have unsuccessful attempts. Erm these babies are longed for! Loved! When it does happen, which is about fifteen, twenty percent there is a successful well, pregnancy baby at the end of it. I mean, I really I can't see why they're gonna be treated any different? No, but they can! Jan? That was my point exactly, if people go through so much hassle to to have a baby, then surely there's gonna be less chance of abusing all that kind of trouble within the family? They've gone through so much. Yes. I'd like to say I'm one of those people who waited seven years to have my daughter, who's now eight by the way, but I mean erm I was one of those people when I heard about IV coming in I thought this was a great thing! But my doctor was under the procession , oh yo you've you've plenty of time yet, you've years to come because of all this idea of how much it was going to cost to go on to do other Mm. things or to find out whether you were capable of having children or not. Mhm. But what I do object to is erm virgin mothers coming along who think that, why shouldn't they use a man? If they so desperately want a child why shouldn't they for one occasion, if they are lesbian or whatever, use a man for that occasion and let the women who have a family, and who want a child and can't have them use this IV programme which is marvellous! It's just so expensive it's ridiculous! Mhm. Mhm. I certainly think there needs to be more discourse, particularly amongst women, lay women and professional women, women who are involved in reproduction. Because I think it's ironic a lot of what's come out of this discussion tonight is that we're actually considering relationships which are treasons, fundamentals Mm. parenthood, for example yo before the capabilities of reproductive technology became available nobody sat down and questioned whether we had a right to have children or not, whether it was a responsibility, a right or whatever, I mean it's it's very ironic that we've actually thrown ourselves into a realm where we have to consider all these fundamental things about human behaviour and human nature Mm. in a way, so that we can plan for the future so that we can make contingencies for changing relationships with people, the effects of these things on children in the future. Let's And I think much more discourse is required. Let me put one final er, question to the vote, well it's, ninety two of you said you welcomed advances in reproductive technology se se several people have said that they don't think women, every woman has a right to have a child. So let me put that vote to the hundred, do you think every woman has a right to have a child, or to try to have a child? Button one for yes, and button two for no. . And you'll be interested to hear that sixty nine of you said yes, and thirty one of you said no. Now isn't that an anonimous vote compared with the first one? Any final comments on that? Up there. Erm I support I V F treatment and I sympathize with the people that can't have children erm but my concern would be with the childrens' right. I think it's a privilege to have children, it's a tremendous duty but I'm concerned about the children. Now, you're ! On which note we have to leave it , I'm really sorry because we've run out of time. Thank you everybody who spoke, I'm sorry to those who didn't manage to fit in. Thank you for joining us. Goodbye. Ah there we are,. Right abdominal wound, she's a wee bit confused. She didn't bother to tell me that she'd only got to call you, right? Erm she wasn't in her nightdress but she only dressed herself, she said And you She said she went to buy something herself, she phoned the clinic and the clinic . She's here and says she should be fortnightly . So I don't know whether you want to go and see her rather than, I could get a doctor to go and see her and phone,. it's just that I'm never gonna get to up to. ? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. erm, first twelve weeks pregnant so should I mark at the bottom when she types . Erm this one. and they said it was going on and they were pleased with it Right well what is the, I'm not quite actually clear what're they doing for us? So you didn't all have a stroll out there and have a look at it then? No, unfortunately I missed part of the evening and I don't know whether they had done that previously but when I was there they didn't do it, no. The only one I would mention Chairman is not strictly accurate, we all did, lots of us anyway, the, the British Legion service on Sunday at the church and I just wondered if we could agree to send a letter to the president cos once again a lot of effort and time and organization went into it and I thought it was an excellent occasion and I think he might appreciate Fine he should be thanked for organizing it on behalf of the Council. Well, he will be sending us a bill, I can pop it in when we get the bill I can assure you that I did and I can assure you that I have already thanked him on behalf of the Council, shook his hand and said how well he done it, but if you'd like a letter to go to say how well he done it, then I'll send a letter telling him how well he done it. He always sends us a bill Well, I think he should have a letter anyway, definitely thanking him cos I mean he did like I suggest after we get the bill else it'll it went up last year Right, I just thought the Chair would like to thank Councillor for the immense amount of work I know that he's been putting in over certain things that have been going on lately and I now take councillors' questions if any of you got any for me. Thank you . Erm, I would like to close by saying that erm I just thought it would be just a nice idea that I would invite any of you members of the Council and wives who haven't got anything else to do on Christmas morning, if you fancy popping up to my house for a glass of sherry or whatever, just on a casual basis as a little thank you for what you've done over the erm over the last twelve months, I extend that invitation to you all and District Councillors if they wish to come and I would like to say, on behalf of the Council, that I hope you all have a, this is the last full meeting, and to everybody here I hope you have a very nice happy peaceful Christmas and I hope we all go into the new year with renewed vigour. Chairman I do have a couple of questions, I do have a couple of questions if I may. Oh, sorry. I thought you'd done that. Very quickly, audit report, audit report, do we have anything on that yet? Not yet. Erm, well we it's been accepted and I was, I was something over and the lady was horrified. I'm awfully sorry about it That's good. And the other one, I wonder if the Council would consider, over sixties club, I ought to declare an interest I suppose, erm have two hundred members and they are distributing this Christmas, as they al always do, a three pound voucher to each of those members in office you know and I just wondered whether the Council would consider a small contribution towards that expenditure. We do obviously make grants to youth clubs and organizations. We've never made a contribution to this club. I w Perhaps you'd like to talk to somebody a before the branch meeting. If that comes in I don't think I could take it in Oh no, no I'd Could it be referred to the grant first? Could we get something from them? Well it's up, you know, all I was asking I was just querying you said you, you when you said is they're issuing three pound to each member? Three pound voucher, er well not voucher no, erm box of groceries Yes, that's right Do you get one? You don't get one do you? My wife was embarrassed today yes You what Someone called her up yeah I'll make a note of that one Well well Well, it's nice to end the year in such good humour. Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for all for your attendance. I'm sorry about that Mr Chairman but er I don't know if that's correct. Well just have a look and see if you think it alright Yeah, fine Could you phone in the morning Yes as well as? Yes says it would be we could get his opinion on why the Yeah, I know him quite well It appears to be that it's off the rails Finances, I think they're well up on that sort of thing Oh yes, they're very well up financially that our total spending is still nought nought nought Nought nought nought It was indeed Could we just ask I'll fill it in Oh oh I'm not Eighty eight Yes, it's on the set you've got, it's there Well I'll, I'll read it out to you and then you can amend them. On the official ones it was resolved totalling four one two five and sixty pence for October and six hundred and seventy one twenty five for the T I C. Can I just explain why that was? The books were at the auditors and I didn't want to hold up the minutes and, as you'd all mostly seen them anyway, I felt that perhaps I could let them go. It does help with our twelve month projection if we haven't spent anything It makes you much closer to budget Thank you for bringing that up. With that erm with that exception can I sign the minutes? Agreed. Thank you Move on then to matters arising, item four, number one,one three four, uses for the old hospital. Erm, you will remember that after the last meeting we were going to have a meeting with Mr which we, which we subsequently did have and we put forward several erm possible uses for the old hospital, including re-siting of the library, relocation of the council offices, police station, day centre for the elderly, day services for the physically disabled, for young mothers and children centre and for a mental health services centre and he was delighted that we had the meeting because he has to meet with his superiors late in December, early January, when he has been asked to put forward ideas. They are considering now short-term leases rather than sell on the market as it is at the present, and they are including the clinic in the buildings for which they are looking for alternative uses. So I think we er await further developments on that. Erm, item two one three four an update from Councillor . It's been overtaken by events in that you have apparently had an application in and that's being studied, when, next Monday? Yes, it'll come up on Monday next erm, no Monday fortnight, yes, twentieth. There is a planning application in for thirty four flats, that will include converting into flats as well. Right, there's not a lot more we can say until that At this stage we can't, but it will come before the Council on the twentieth. Let's make certain this time, nevertheless, Chairman, that this Council does spell out very thoroughly reasons for objection, if they wish to object, and not missing anything out I think we always have actually. This is a new a I take your point and that will be looked at, thank you. Right, item three one three four footpaths. It was my pleasure to chair a meeting between all interested parties at village hall. Erm, having been told that the County Council were running the meeting, I did find it a little difficult to chair, but I do think that we've come out of it with some constructive ideas. Erm, perhaps the Town Clerk would like to comment further as a er developments as you see them. Well it was a very successful meeting. I mean, considering there are only about five hundred people in there were just on forty people present in the room which is quite a good average or percentage of them and er a lot of the questions were quite positive and the Chairman sort of took them, there were one or two people there who obviously erm wanted to have everything either exactly as it was or whatever, but it looked very much from the conversation that I had with the ramblers afterwards that in large part this scheme could be accepted. Erm, the only area that I found that er there was a particular wish to keep was the road le was the path leading down from down to itself. They really don't seem to want to have that part closed off but that part along by the river and that seemed to be almost entirely er satisfactory to everybody and er Chairman fenced off one or two other people quite well. One of the warmer meetings I've done but th I think that we did come out in the end with all bar four people in the room, I believe that's right Councillor is it? Four was it? Er, the vast majority seemed to be generally in favour of the package and it was a small number that did seem to me. I think that puts it fairly well in er perspective and hopefully now the County Council will come up with the er d . Erm, it shouldn't, it should be noted that the er land owners are prepared to pay for a fairly expensive footbridge on their land to cure the problem and er I hope that this Council's initiatives follow through and a twenty five year old problem gets cured. Thank you Chairman and Town Clerk and Councillors for attending that meeting because this has been a problem here for so long that I think all of us would be delighted to see it resolved to the er satisfaction of the local residents. Right, item four, folio eighty five, one three five working party. I agree with the Town Clerk. He feels it's time we actually set up a working party. Well unfortunately we were scheduled to have a meeting erm something like ten days ago and then two or three of the key people had to drop out so I cancelled the meeting because obviously we want the people there who were going to actually get the thing up and running so that we can formulate a first public meeting and I would like erm, you know, now, to establish a working party but again a number of the people who one would expect to be on it are not here and it's slightly awkward. I know Councillor is quite happy to be on it, I would hope that Councillor is. Yeah How many do you want on it? I want at least five and I just wanted to erm establish that with one or two other people who er presently attend the tourism meetings are invited as required, rather than to every meeting. Er, how can we take this forward? Er, I presume we, we actually know that and are on it. will be on it automatically. Erm, you were thinking Ya two others? Ya And then coopt as they As we need Correct ya Wh anybody with a bursting ambition and desire to be on the working party? Or will it be another one that I have to join in with? Oh well and a volunteer will volunteer if they're not keeping anyone else away from things. Wonderful, there we are. I'll establish a first meeting as soon as I can. The odd name there with a familiar ring to it I fancy. However, we move on. Item five folio eighty six one three five public seats, an update. Well, I've circulated the letter that I got from . I don't agree with it because there are certainly seats there which are their responsibility which are not on this list, particularly around this memorial outside and places like that and erm quite categorically they're theirs. What I would like is for all the Councillors to look at this, to advise me which other seats they think are indeed the responsibility of and then I'll go back and go to battle but er I'd like everybody's views on which ones they believe they are so that I can do it firmly. Erm, has had chance to cast his eye over that list? No. Well if we could send that with the amenities and perhaps if they've got any, we can't say that er, I view this as very much, we've, we've got a platform here. They've accepted the responsibility for a number of seats. If we can get a few more accepted under their responsibility so be it. There's the old seat up that they seem to discard but that's the last old seat of Council, the old fashioned seat. You couldn't find that one , could you? Yes, it's there It's responsibility Councillor , good evening. Chairman, good evening gentlemen. There is a seat by our place which Council have always maintained. It's not on this list. Right well we'll include that one then. If you could let me have these in writing it would make life easier How do you know they haven't maintained it? Could you just drop a note in to the Town Clerk as to where that is? I appreciate what you say but we wanna It's over the road just beyond our Well I'll leave you to liaison with that Right Fine, thank you for that. That's progress. Eighty six one three five level crossing gates. I'd just like to say a doesn't it look wonderful, the one gate we've done a I saw a I saw a train coming last week However, the problem is that Mr is not keen, I think it's been a labour of love doing the one, he's not keen to do the other one. He says he doesn't feel that he can do it, does he ? I wrote and thanked him on behalf of the Council for what he'd done but it's now a question of finding somebody who can match it. So at least now we've got a specification to go to,w we know what it looks like and er we've had one or two quotes in the past week and for firmed those up now and chosen exactly what we want them to do. I mean before it was a little bit difficult to describe exactly what we wanted. He's certainly done a, a very good job on that one, it's very Mhm, I'm delighted we've done that We'd really like the other one done by the tourist season because it's the sort of thing to send people to look at Is it? Well, compared to some of the other things that are supposed to be tourist attractions come and look at the gates sub- contract planning committee which has already had a look at that That's right yes You agree that the contract sub-committee looks at that d rather than the Council? All agreed? Thank you. Right number seven folio eighty eight one four six policing update. Successful I think, the phone's going in downstairs today, is that right It's er, the box is there, it's just gotta be the actual phone unit's gotta be put in Right It's all wired up in the back as well. And I will, although he's here, thank him in front of him, moving mountains to make sure we get an increased police presence in . I'm delighted to say that we're gonna have w what, a unit based in here, isn't it? Section. A section. The best thing I can do, with your permission, Council, is invite Inspector to talk about what we're gonna do for er er a police section in . Have I got your permission? Yes of course Yes. Agree with that? Yes Seconded? Alright, thank you,. Two points that I wish to update the Council on. The Chairman's already er done the first which is the box outside. I know that wishes to take a photograph of the Chairman and myself on Wednesday You won't both get in it together. standing in front of the box It won't be picture, will it? But of course it is important that the box is er in operational use before such a photograph is taken, so I will endeavour tomorrow to er to resolve the situation of actually putting the phones in the box so that er by the time Wednesday comes, and our photograph, then it is up and running as they say. The other thing that I wish to update the Council on is my deliberations in respect of establishing a section here at . Now, as a background to that, I actually had one of my officers at undertake research of the in to establish what the demands were made upon us from th the section which includes at the present time. Erm, she actually traced back calls on the station log and it was done from the first of October nineteen ninety two to the thirtieth of September nineteen ninety three and during that time we had over five thousand three hundred and thirty calls, of which one thousand one hundred and sixty six originated from , so that is erm twenty point three percent of the calls received at police station and were held on came from , which is quite a lot. True true I therefore worked on the premise that if, if a fifth of our work comes from then it must be right to have approximately a fifth of our staff based in Hear hear At the present time I have in a total of fourteen patrol constables and two community constables and, as you are aware, I have two community constables here in , and . My proposal, and er notice I have in my hand a final draft which will be submitted later this week for approval by headquarters. My proposal is that we establish a section of four constables here in . Now that I propose will be achieved by the use of the two existing community constables and transferring two officers from to . The review that we undertook of the calls shows that the peak demands in are between eight A M and twelve midnight, so the four officers will work a sixteen hour duty scheme er of eight till four, four til midnight, and then the cover between midnight and A M will come fr eight A M will come from as it does at present. By having four officers here it means that they will be able to man the police car for those shifts seven days a week and in addition there will be one spare constable on every day except for Sunday either to cover deficiencies in that crewing or carry out er foot patrol or enquiries within the town. Now, my proposal is that this section is established on the seventeenth of January nineteen ninety four. Certainly Superintendent , who is my immediate senior officer, is very supportive of this proposition. I am aware that the Chief Superintendent in , Superintendent , Chief Superintendent is also supportive of the idea. So I would anticipate that my proposals will receive favourable consideration from headquarters. So hopefully by the erm, I should be in a position by the next Council meeting, to report that we should be in a position to be up and running on the seventeenth of January. The problems er that face me accommodation have been overcome with the assistance of the Chairman and the Town Clerk ah and we have been offered additional accommodation here in the Council offices, which is most welcome. Erm, there is one slight technical problem which I have to overcome in relation to a computer terminal but I'll erm face that problem at if and when that situation develops. Hopefully then er on that date, as I say, we should have a fully fledged section here in . The other thing which I feel is important is that the section is supervised. There are two ways that it can be done, either by a sergeant at being totally er dedicated to the policing of . The disadvantage is that he would be based at and he would still be working a twenty four hour shift system at . The preferable proposal is that a sergeant is redeployed from from another town in and er I won't mention where I have my beady eye I could get myself into trouble with a colleague of yours in another town but er I am hopeful, so as I say, er on the seventeenth of January then we could be returning to the situation and I understand in nineteen seventy four when there was a sergeant and six constables here in until the demise of the Urban District Council when they were all moved to . Twenty years later my plan is to move most of them back again. Well done. Thank you ever so much for that. I've moved back into and er I'd just like to say I'm sure on behalf of all of you and the people of that we see this as a tremendous move and thank you for the work you've put in. Er, I've been fortunate enough to share in some of that work with you and I know how much work's been involved. At the annual meeting, the annual meeting last year in the institute, it was obvious to me that one of the major concerns of people in this town was policing and police presence and I think the joint effort that we've put forward, and I must mention as well since he's, we've worked very well together, the police liaison office has been running extremely well I feel, the number of calls have gone up since we started. I would just like to say that I see this as an absolute benefit to and look forward to us working together in the future . Thanks very much. Hear hear Chairman, I would just like to add that er you and the Town Clerk are to be congratulated on this achievement Yes, yes and it should be recorded. Thank you. Thank you Councillor , that's very nice of you. Right, well Can I just make one point? Yes I think the fax would still be a highly useful element between us. I mean, that door is always open for you so there's no reason why we can't continue. I pumped one through today on something lost and it does give you an immediate link to , a written link. I would see no change to the exiting No police liaison arrangement. good, okay. I would just say that what we've done, we looked at the hospital, we looked at the youth building and at the moment we've come up with the idea of the s the back room, the second room across the corridor, erm where we actually store some of the T I C books and pamphlets. It is gonna be the second room for the police and by moving one door we can put their two rooms together and you've got access to the toilets, cloakrooms and all the necessary things, so without very much expenditure at all on anybody's back, we've actually created the section within this building. And so we've got our public part, our telephone, our fax machine, all through to the police, and now we're basing the car here. And so we've, now, you know, in these times when you get tied up in red tape and bureaucratic mess everywhere the speed at which has achieved this is admirable and I do really thank you for that. Hear hear ? Right, now we've reached item eight under matters arising. Thank you I know you've and I'm gonna vacate the chair now and let deal with . Right? Erm, no. That one. I'll let you know Right, ladies and gentlemen, fellow Councillors. Erm, we now move on to item eight appendix two and it's in matters arising regarding the estate. update the Chairman, I believe that the man who's major in this is Councillor who's now, as I understand, got a dispensation from the D O E. Is that correct Councillors? That indeed is correct Would you like to, to give us an update on that please? Thank you very much. Erm, I've written it out here if I may read it. It's the first occasion in fact on which I've been permitted to speak at any meeting dealing with this application. The D O E has authorized me to do so, but not to vote. I need hardly say I have found it difficult to hold my tongue on so important a matter over the last eighteen months. The latest situation is County Highways have recommended refusal. The Town Council, of which you are very aware, in a very detailed submission written by the Town Clerk, recommended refusal. All four District Councillors have written in and recommended refusal. County Councillor, Councillor on my right, I think is to be congratulated on the work he has done with County Highways on our behalf, and has written to District Council recommending refusal. The public have written thirty letters, representing about a thousand people, living in all corners of have written and recommended refusal. There have been no letters of support. The applicant has consistently, in three applications,t to develop this site, omitted to include a link road from the site into Lane, a road required by a policy statement in the statutory town plan. A policy that quite clearly states, in plain English,without a link road there shall be no development of this site . In nineteen seventy, if I take you back to twenty three years ago, County recorded in the outline development plan the following and I quote growth in the town not accompanied by measures to alleviate the traffic problems in the existing road network would merely add to the deterioration in the quality of the environment in the town and without such measures no further expansion is environmentally acceptable unquote. In the past twenty years the population of this town has almost doubled and the number of cars using the roads has trebled, making that quote much much more topical. A further quote, if I may, from the same document in association with the construction in a link road between the site and Lane shall be provided and the Lane Road junction closed unquote. That is a comment twenty years ago regarding the most dangerous crossroads in , Hill. The amount of traffic using Hill and Street is destroying, in my opinion, and polluting the town. The elderly are terrified to cross the road in what is the main shopping centre. An elderly lady, this weekend actually,i it sounds funny but it's rather serious what she said actually. We are now buying ourselves white sticks that we don't really need to help us cross the road. What a sad thing to have to say. And this development if allowed, without a link road, will generate an additional estimated four hundred cars daily into the town centre. There are other quotes but I will save these for my submission to District Council if needed on the fourth of January. I'd heard it said that th the development of this site has been in the development plan for twenty years Absolutely correct. but I sh I, my opinion is the test we should apply when determining this application surely is, if we were today, nineteen ninety three, preparing a development plan for would we include in the plan this site for development? The answer is an emphatic no, of course we wouldn't. As you know, the application has been withdrawn from the agenda of the coastal planning committee twice in recent weeks. I ask myself, is this delay in any way connected with the decision of the t the developer to appeal to the D O E against the previous refusal of this application? You may wish to draw your own conclusions. Especially when the applicant recently suggested, and I quote, we should not indulge in further procrastination in reaching an early decision on this application. I ask that this impudent remark can only be far from being dilatory, we are being diligent in safeguarding the environment of and the quality of life of the people, and we are not merely interested in financial gain. The fact remains, if this ev development is allowed, it will have an irreversible detrimental effect on the fiscal environment of the town centre and the amenities of the people for generations to come. is being choked and polluted by the motor car, coming specially from large housing estates built on the wrong side of Hear hear requiring travel through the town centre, the town centre that was designed and built for horse-drawn traffic. The development of this site in nineteen ninety three is unacceptable and must be not be approved. We who live in know best and must be heard. Now I can tell you a little, one final remark, I at five thirty this afternoon met Mr , Mr , Councillor , Councillor , Councillor at five thirty to discuss the delay in dealing with this application. The delay was with the approval of District Council at the request of the developer, who asked for time to consider if Hill could be improved. They agreed it will go before the District Council without change on the fourth of January, whatever the decision on County on the improvements, if there are any, to Hill. And they've also agreed that any alteration of the plan will be referred back to this Council for their consideration. Thank you . Thank you Councillor . Councillor ? The Town Clerk's just pointed out that their tape recorder's run out and wondered if you would go back to the start and work through all that again. It's a joke But this is a very serious matter and difficult to follow Councillor because he's gone through nearly every point. Er, there is just one crucial one I think that I'd like to refer to briefly. What concerns me in particular is how District Council is handling this and I'll come back to that in a moment. The only thing that didn't say was a letter from , Headmaster of the County Primary School. He wrote to , Chief Engineering and Planning Officer. I read with some concern that a housing development planned for the Valley is to disgorge its traffic on to the Road near the Hill Lane Lane crossroads. Any increase in traffic at that already dangerous crossroads will, I feel, place my pupils at risk. During the twelve years that I've been head teacher at this school I have waited for promised improvements at the crossroads, and in particular the Lane junction. My P T A have re regularly voiced their concerns. Now it appears that no improvements are in the pipeline but increased traffic is. Surely this is prejudicial to all who regularly use the crossroads . I think touches on er the thing that concerns me most about this this before Yes, we have. Wh what I'd like to suggest, without going through it all again, is that perhaps we could agree to ask the Town Clerk to write to Planning Department and voice our concern at the way this matter is being handled. I didn't want to go through the arguments for and against. I think they've been discussed previously and I think the arguments for refusal are very clear cut. As said, all the District Councillors are opposed to it, I'm opposed to it, and there's very clear cut Highways Authority reasons for refusing, but in spite of that District Council seems to be going out of its way to bend over backwards and, and help the, the applicants for some reason or another, presumably to get this thing through. And a that surprises me and concerns me because when this went to District Council's Environment and Planning Committee first of all speed was of the essence. I mean I, I enquired why it went to the District Council Environment and Planning Committee rather than the Coastal Planning Committee and the one reason I was told was speed, they could get the thing brought up there that much more quickly. A couple of months ago they were pushing it through as quickly as possible. It was shrouded in secrecy at that time. It was held in with the present public excluded but now we seem to have a completely different situation. The one thing that seems to be doing now is to string it out as long as possible. The one thing they seem to be trying to do now is obfuscation and delay er and I think we ought to voice our concern and I hope the Council will agree to ask the Town Clerk to express concern at the way it's being handled. Thank you Councillor . I, I think you've gone through it now. I see no reason for us actually to go through the whole pros and cons. We've made our view quite clear. I think the things that have come out of this for me er from Councillor actually is that it would be unlikely that we, we or would be allocating that plan today and I think the amount of traffic has increased through the town centre would make it foolish and one does wonder at the wisdom if all the development went along which had to be serviced then through er Street and through the town centre in to the main areas of employment that happened years ago. Erm, the other point that I think we should be clear and we should remember, that this Council has still not wavered. We have never gone away from the fact that the town plan and the policy statement in there that if the road was provided the land is in the town plan and this Council would have approved it. I think it is important to remember that if they complied with the properly doc adopted and formulated town plan then the permission would have been granted, obviously subject to details and . That has been our major worry and I think for us now to go away and just allow it to go ahead, twenty years on, without any improvements, without the link road and without improvements to Hill I think is an abdication of our duties and I really do think that. Right, it's been suggested by Councillor that we write a letter to . I think we should express our concern in the way that it's being handled and I think there are grounds for concern and I think must be aware that this Council is watching what they're doing. I mean, we, it was very nearly went through had a meeting which had the press and public excluded and I think it was not handled well at that time from and we should make it quite clear that we are watching and hopefully we do understand the situation. Now, how does anyone else feel about the situation? Chairman, you, you may wish to, with the Council's approval, and your approval,Councillor wishes to make a short statement on this. It might be useful. Someone who again. This is an unusual evening isn't it? Twice in one evening. , yes, agreed? Just briefly, I have been correspondence right back erm it's difficult to see why that land was designated for land except that it's agricultural land and erm my point is that the gradient on a lot of the site, especially on the northern erm banks is one in five and one in seven and to build on that would erm well even said that the building would be imponderous so I mean i it just isn't a suitable site, apart from the link road, for, for housing either because the gradient there would, would be very erm difficult from a landscape point of view a there's nothing they could do to improve the till you know the turn of the century and they are and through all the planning papers from nineteen eighty five it is said that that Hill can't be improved so I mean unless they do something erm dramatic, I can't see what they can do, I mean it just isn't a suitable site for development. Right, right. Move back into Council? I take it Yes er no, I'm not taking the planning minutes. I've got to take item, in a minute, item nine I believe. Yes Erm, is it your wish that we would write expressing our concern and would it be possible for us to erm delegate this to Councillor and the Town Clerk, with the Chairman of Planning obviously innit? Would that be in order? I think we should you know make it clear how we stand. Okay? Are we all agreed? Okay?? a personal statement or a Council statement Absolutely yes yes. This is a Council view. So that's Councillor , Councillor , Town Clerk and the Chairman of Planning. Okay? Anyone against? Okay. Thank you very much. Right, with that I'm gonna take you on if you're all agreed, and I think you've already agreed, some of you, most of you, that we go on to item nine. I have to say to you I'd no idea I was doing this this evening so I'm gonna do everything and backup. Right, we're d discussing District Council area wide plan. Erm, many of you will realize that East Devon have been requested er by the Government to prepare these area wide plans rather than just a town plan so they take in and encompass the whole of the area and there was quite a lengthy and substantial document with the, with all the different policy statements on I believe Councillor ? Thank you Chairman. Eh eh well the district Excuse me just one moment. I beg your pardon. I wonder could you agree that I signed appendix two? I didn't do this at I didn't know Yes, of course. I'm sorry about that but I did it while was out. Thank you. Okay. The district wide erm development plan will take the place of the individual town development plans. Here is the first draft, a hundred and forty three pages of it. It's a draft document that will be in fact circulated to Town Councils for their opinion and also will have dis on display to the public in the near future. is in section page one one one. It was discussed in detail in a five hour meeting at District Council and after, as I say, remember, it's only a consultation document this time that will be put to you for your decision. I asked that in section fifteen should include, which it doesn't at the moment, the following matters. I asked that the link road from to Lane, which had been omitted, should be included in the town plan and Councillor has written on that matter to District Council and they agreed that it should be. It has not yet been taken out in the statutory town development plan. My goodness I note that County are preparing a town centre enhancement scheme which they are doing where there's a conflict clearly between the traffic and the pedestrian. That enhancement scheme is being prepared now and reference should be made to it in this document in respect of. The need for an open space, public open space east of the town. That is not included. Policy statements in respect of are fine, Hill, and the prime shopping centre and Lane should be r repeated in the new plan. They've been omitted. There should be reference to the social housing and the cross subsidy housing and the hospital at in the new plan. The plan will be operative from nineteen ninety four to the year two thousand and one. That's what we're talking about. between now and two thousand and one, so we've gotta get these things in. The need for a pedestrian link between school and the . I asked that these, all these matters should be put in and it was agreed. So when it comes before the Council I will let the Town Clerk have this and then it's important that, if the Council agrees, they should be included. Development of a public amenity area in a vicinity and including the formed when the flood alleviation scheme is constructed. This could be delightful. Development of a route to and to dev develop that site as an important town amenity. Continued development and improvement of picnic site should be included. Implementation of the approved resolution on the Coastal Planning Committee, this is an interesting one that they've totally forgotten, implementation of the approved resolution of a Coastal Planning Committee district on the twenty seventh of January that the highway implications which affect the development of the area marked W in the inset plan in fact is . It shall be reassessed as part of the district wide local plan. Would you believe it? And that was approved on the twenty seventh of January ninety three and nothing has happened about it since. The removal of all . Inclusion of lev eleven acres of land at school in the district wide development plan if we, as we hope, is taken out. All of those matters have been omitted. I asked that all of them should be put in. We'll wait and see when the second draft comes to this Council, when the Council will discuss my points and agree or disagree that they should be included or not. Thank you gentlemen. Well I would think the Council would be delighted to have those details in front of it for us to have a full discussion and to make it known but thank you Councillor for all those details. It just shows, I think, how vigilant Councillors need to be when you get all these documents, and you do get many of them if you're a District County Councillor, and how necessary it is for you to read them and study them and to remember because these things are very very important when they're put in when it goes to higher authority at that time. Right, is there anyone else would like to ask anything on the district wide plan to Councillor at this stage? No. So we just ask that these come forward so that the Council can fully discuss this and make our replies to before they're formally adopted? Right. Well, with that, I thank you for my very short er stay in the Chair and er with your agreement we'll ask the Chairman to return. Okay, thank you very much Both together please Have you got any traffic lights? Did you find the draft? Move on to item five on the agenda of the preceding minutes, the planning committee meetings are on Monday the eighth of November and the twenty ninth of November. I presume we've all got a second now, have you? I would like to present them in the absence of both the Chairman and the Vice Chairman of planning so is it your wish that I sign both sets as a true and correct record? Chairman, there's just one little point that I did speak to the Town Clerk and I think the Council should be aware of it. On er folio ninety er regarding Mr agricultural dwelling at . On the first one, folio ninety? Folio ninety. Erm I did say at the time if the Council agreed it was we would approve the new application it would only be if the original was rescinded and I did speak to the Town Clerk so there's no need, I'm not making a big issue, but I think the Council should be aware and the Town Clerk I believe has notified because again this is one of those things that could happen at a later date and as we all know if we haven't made these things perfectly clear. With that amendment, is everybody happy that the minutes are signed? Yes, I've got some questions after though. Okay, that's ninety, ninety one and ninety two, ninety three. Okay, let's take the er, I'll do my best to answer 'em cos I'm not right, let's take the meeting on the eighth of November. Any questions on that meeting? Any matters arising from that meeting? Yes Chairman. You might have to leave the room again . No, I'm erm, I'm quite happy Correspondence folio ninety, land at school. Oh. Right. Erm your prerogative. Er, yeah, I'm just gonna be safe. I'm gonna, you can chair it from there but I'm gonna do it just to be safe. That's the only one. The remainder doesn't matter. Okay, thanks Thank you very much . Erm, folio ninety, land at School. Correspondence, if you'd all refer to that at the moment actually. In the last sentence erm my view is that we should not wait for an application to build on this site. If it is not included in the district wide local plan for development there can be no development of this site before the year two thousand and one. And I would recommend in fact that action on that should be we ought to visit the site, there's a splendid map I think you've all had, you had in a letter, you had in a letter from a developer to have a look at this map and, and the sites they're talking about actually. Consider the points made in the letter and if the Council agree in principle it's, it's a suitable site for development, advise District Council now that it should be considered for inclusion in the district wide plan now being drawn up. That was one of my points just now actually. It is level, it's available, the developer may provide a, an amenity area, it says so in the letter anyway, for the town, and a route across the river to . We've gotta plan ahead and give District Council our views and not wait. It will be too late. It's gotta go in there. Yes, thank you, I thank Councillor , thank you for that valid . You will recall, and it is in the the client was asked to obtain clarification on their proposals for an improved . There was an offer in the letter if my memory's correct but it didn't actually specify what their offer was and really I think what the Council want to do is exactly what they are offering because we have to be minded all the time that the that er applicant does not own all the land and, and certainly it is, is, is the wish I think of this Council, I believe unanimously, and, and I think a lot of the residents, that we do somehow acquire a pedestrian link. It would be something that would vastly improve I think the, the link of the new hospital to the medical centre without going around over Bridge. It really is something that I would like to see us achieve in the future and if this can be brought forward by meeting the developer down there, then I would be, certainly be in favour of that and I would certainly like, and this is what we said at this meeting, to find out a little more detail of exactly what they were offering but we have to be minded all the time, as I said again, is how we're going to acquire permission to go over one or two different land owners' lands. That's the, that's the point yes That will be the difficulty That will be the difficulty Has the developer responded to that letter by the way? It went off only a couple of days after the meeting. Well we may need a, a, a further letter now. Whether the Council I, I personally would be quite keen to go down there and see A, and we'd need permission of the land owners, to do this, to see where the link could go across, you know, the best position, so that we, and I believe this is what Councillor is saying, so that we can actually come forward and maybe this ought to be a meeting with the Amenities Committee, maybe the Ramblers and bear in mind as I say again I hate to do these things and the land owner think we're steamrollering 'em into something without their knowledge. I think if you get their backs up before you've even started, it's not a helpful situation is it ? But I would very much, with the land owners, like to go down there and see and, and then try and negotiate a possibility for right of way across Yes, I, I think could be approached at this stage. I mean feelings on the matter. If we help the developer, it's wrong to put a path if the other fella's not gonna cooperate. Absolutely We do want it in there Chairman. Would it be a situation if we asked the Town Clerk and er maybe with the Chairman, it's a little bit difficult, I think the Town Clerk at this stage, to speak to and then if it seems possible we could bring it up at the Planning Committee meeting and arrange a date to go down and have a look, when we've actually approached the land owners. I would hate to do it the other way. Do we have a lot of time? Does it say Ya Do you think it might be an idea to speak to the er to first and get their resp so I've got their response I think you Well it's and So that they really mean they're going to do that and then to Mhm I think it would be nice, and then we could actually discuss it at the next planning meeting which I presume, which is the twentieth Twentieth yes Ah ah ah the twentieth fairly big date. I mean, it would be grand for wouldn't Okay. Alright. So we're definitely agreed that we ask the Town Clerk to make those two contacts and to put it on the agenda for the Planning Committee? Would it prudent for me to consider both sets of minutes rather than us get into difficulty? Can I, yeah, can I go on to the application if I may Chairman? I mean it's obvious that I, I was not present, I was not present but the committee itself, and regrettably the Chairman's not here either, of the Planning Committee erm itself got into some difficulty by accepting and voting on a proposal to approve the application subject to the provision of a suitable link road. You cannot, and I, I, I know Councillor and Alderman erm have said this many times, you cannot vote on something not before you. No You can, you can only vote on the application before you. In this case, you can vote on the application without a link road. The Chairman in fact should have a point of procedural rule not to accept the resolution er before you. Erm eventually you've got refusing it but you I imagine you've got yourself in some difficulty f one further point on this I note you had a section on these minutes. I note you've got a site inspection on the hockey club room but not for the eighty seven houses that may affect for generations, I E . I am a little surprised that the Planning Committee decided to go to look at the hockey club but not eighty seven houses in . Thank you . Yes well I think to answer bo both of yo your concerns, first of all we have to accept that the Planning Committee has, actually has power to make its decisions not to come back to this Council so I'm afraid it is a decision of the Planning Committee. The Chairman at that time decided t to take the motion and proposition and it was against my advice. I actually advised him at the meeting that he should not and couldn't take that motion, and I was by Alderman in that situation, but he still deemed to go ahead and that's p his prerogative. He is, after all, the Chairman of that committee but certainly I advised him against that and I thought it was totally wrong er to do it in the way he did and I, I think it was a shame for this Council that he, that he did go ahead, but there you are. That's to answer that situation. I believe that er we didn't er consider going to look at the development because it was quite clearly in the minds of a large percentage of us that it was contrary to the town plan and so we did not think it was necessary to do that. We did, however, feel it was necessary to go and look at the because we are very aware of, of, of the lighting that affects those properties who've been very patient with the amount of development that's gone on there. I thought that it was very polite that we should go there in the evening and assess for ourselves exactly the harm th the possible harm that it could do to their gardens at the back and and that's why we did that. Thank you Chairman. And indeed Chairman in taking account of those concerns, we did add er a couple of conditions Yes we did. we, we recommended approval subject to conditions and one of those was extra to alleviate the problem of the lighting to nearby properties I think Right. Erm, are there any other matters? And I think we we should do all the planning, don't you? On, then we're gonna need to accept that folios ninety two and ninety three are a correct record? Is that all agreed? Yes Anyone against? No? Are there any matters arising from the minutes of November the twenty ninth? No? And with that I think that covers the planning meetings. Thank you very much This is a funny meeting, isn't it? Thank you very much I didn't realize it would be quite as tricky as this If it had have been, if we'd have known we'd have pulled the tables further, pulled the tables further across that way. Right . You'll have to tell me if I cover anything that you've already done. I think that's very wise. Item six County Council and County Council's reports. I'd like to thank and, I'd like it minuted that I'd like to thank, our Councillors and County Council Councillors because they are getting the reports in now. We are able to circulate these reports and I think that's working extremely well. Has anybody got any questions of the reports from our Councillors? I think Councillor , County Councillor , should refer to the jet out the culvert, there's not a culvert, that's two pipes that takes the water, overflow water across the . The road gets flooded when there's heavy rain and I er I clean it out. I don't want to give the impression that's a road that'll never be flooded again. Quiet people, thank you. Did everybody hear what said? No, afraid not. Right, let's try and talk one at a time now. Can you just say it again please? I just, Councillor says about cleaning out the culvert. It's not a culvert it's two pipes that takes the water in ordinary times, ordinary river level, across the road but if there is heavy rain the ford, you'll find that the ford will be always flooded so er it won't be alleviating th the flooding of the, of that part of the road. I'm sure Councillor will take that on board. Yes okay. I've got one comment. I'm extremely sad to see that the price for glass has gone down by five pounds a ton which results in the er the income from the recycling of glass being halved. It shows what we've been saying for a long time, how fragile the markets in this recycling are, and I still stick to what I've thought all along, that marketing comes first and making the product comes second. Clearly that hasn't been the case. I hope that this gets back on the road because clearly people are starting to put things in the proper places for recycling. Can we just mention there that we did have a problem at the weekend with the paper banks again. I meant to say that to you. There was paper all over the car park again. Okay, anybody got anything of any other reports? Chairman, I, I've got one here actually. I wonder if you would take up this idea of the family tree for generations It is an item a bit further down Oh, is it? Yeah I can tell you I've seen the video. It really is appalling to see and thank goodness it's in black and white, it's not in colour but I'll share that view yes. I'm actually, I am actually, I've been party, they've been circulating me with the correspondence of the residents' association and I am very worried about this but don't feel, until invited by the residents' association, that we should do any more. Oh no, no, it's District Clearly, clearly, the survey couldn't be carried on in very many parts of the sewer because the pipes are in such bad condition. So, we await developments on that. Well I've now, er I've now arranged a further meeting with Environment Health District Council and the residents' association. Thank you for that . Thank you. Right, any other questions on the Councillors' reports? I think it's proof that they're and well written. Thank you for that. That's ideal. Ah, there's a top on it. That's alright. It's just a top. Merely a top. . Yes. Have we Erm met? Get, get your thieving hands out of there. Oh dear. I'm up with Daniel again. Daniel. What have you been doing to Daniel? I was up last week and Doctor gave him, gave him an antibiotic erm he had Aha. really bad cold, but he's still got a cough and he's not getting rid of it. I've been up What are they doing to you? for two nights with him. What's he doing to you? He's really er Was he bad to you? I feel maybe it's gone to his chest. problem with catarrh. Haven't you? You're full of catarrh. . his nose, his eyes, his chest, all . his sinus and stop everything else. Was this sort of fluey thing he had last week? Er, aye erm a sort of fluey thing. But he never er he never had a cough or anything No. but Aye. That's his the antibiotics finished. Let's have a listen to you and see what you're doing to your poor old self. He's a tickly boy today. Are you tickly? Are you tickly? during the day, it's at night. Aye. When he when he lies down. Aye. It It stops Mummy, I've got the . Mhm. Aye. Yeah. And he's actually er Doctor er referred Aye. to be tested for asthma. Because No. since he's been born he's saying he's said got five chest infections. Aye that's, I think's he got a lot of sinus trouble, I think that's his problem. And the wee thing's and I don't think you'd get a bit sinus in the wee . . Haven't you? Here? Don't you? Don't you? Don't you? Don't you? Don't you? Don't you? Tickle. Tickle. Tickle. Tickle. Tickle. laugh, to annoy you. Tickle. Tickle. Tickle. Right. Let's get you sorted Daniel. So now? Well he's erm eight months now. Eight months. Eight months. Well, we'll give you a wee bit of that nice medicine, or, nasty medicine. Nice medicine eh? What do you think? Nice medicine . What do you think? Nice medicine? But he's never been out the , he was born like this. . Attaboy. .medicine should I Now give to him. Ahem. Get him out in the fresh air as much as you can cos Aha. this is a good time as well. Mhm. Mm. And, and did but I don't know whether to take him on holiday Doctor. We used to go on holiday at this time but I think maybe the sun will do him a world of good. Yes. Take him away on holiday. Right. Take you away on holiday. We'll take you away.? that. . Right. Get you it. Thanks . Okay. Right, Mrs . Right. Bye bye . Bye. You come back and see Thomas another day. Right. Oh just how are you? Alright now. Feeling better now? Yeah About the time I started me tape What's it for? Dictionary or thing, some come yesterday, anybody disagrees with being taped like I turn it off. I get twenty five pound for it No Who've you had on it then? Nobody first one I've had, I hope it's recording tape that, it is, well what you got to tell us then? Nothing Nowt? Oh, haven't seen you for weeks and you've got nowt I've been bad for two weeks Wendy, housewife, age fifty er how d'ya stop it? Er I get a twenty five pound voucher when she comes back next Friday. For what? Well just a voucher for twenty five pound to spend Where you gonna spend it? I dunno, dunno what it's for? Just twenty five pound voucher, so which town, village city did you record How's Paul? Well he's alright like, but er phoned us yesterday, I wrote it down what he told us in the book, in there, cos it's confidential between him and the Co-op, but so I'll turn this off He collapsed at Debbie's on Wednesday night, well he fell, bumped his head sort of fall down so the doctor come yesterday, tt, and he had to stop in bed two or three days and go at the doctor's for ten minute appointment and he bloody test and to see why he's lost so much weight cos his legs are like that. I said to well he was never bloody fat to start with it,dizzy so Mm he says his daughter's here from South Africa with her little'un, she's married to a Paki, but the marriage is like that. No, what you buying with Mm, mm, I don't know, I think one of me tablets, me, for me heart, they give me a different tablet like, it was a same like Heinz Beans or Cross and Blackwell Beans Aye. and I think that's upset me stomach Oh. I've had sickness, no I haven't had sickness, I'm telling lies, I've had diarrhoea and then I've been constipated and then violent pains and terrible Mm. it's bound to be going into spasm or something Mm. so I don't know whether it is that tablet, it's eased off now Mm. but it's all in me back It's not that flu I don't think, Sam, Sammy Jo started with it, I mean she had the doctor out a week on Saturday, I mean she was ill and Sharon started her Sunday dinner, a week on Sunday, she never had her dinner, Sammy Jo never, er why me and Elliott left some, then on Monday she was really bad and Elliott was Mm. and I knew started me on me chest, so I had the doctor Tuesday all of us, but they went in before me I know, when I was in the Sammy Jo were alright Was it Oh erm last Tuesday? yeah Well where were you? I was in the doctor's I never see ya, I was sat No it was early, Sammy Jo wasn't there, and I don't know whether they said Grant or Elliott , it was about oh twelveish No, all went in together we, ten past five our appointment was for all of us Yeah I asked Sammy Jo, she said something about the Sunday Oh, five to er Sharon had altered it or something cos you all went in at five to five or something No made appointment Yeah Sharon hadn't altered it What they'd already made an appointment for Sammy Jo well that's what Oh, oh oh that was for her ears Mm. yeah, but when come, come on Saturday she looked in her ears cos Sharon said she had to go back with her, she says I wait don't go ears are cleared Mm. er and Sharon never alt er cancelled that, well they come out and they said they'd had Chinese flu so when I went into and had me chest done, I says I've got the flu like, she says yeah she said I says I, I know, I said they've got that Chinese flu she's be I says have I? She says no, I says have I bronchitis? She says no you've just got a very infect on your chest, but, I did have a cold that night, yeah sneeze No I haven't had a cold or anything on me chest what with them being sick you see Sharon and the babe Mm. I dunno if Elliott were, but he was off work about a week so I have to go back again Tuesday Yeah, folk here just never been out since New Year, then she had to work at the hospital Tuesday, well Bradley said if you don't feel fit enough phone up and we'll send a nurse to you I said you're bloody mental, you ask for everything you get, I said instead of phoning the nurse in, ah but I think Alison told me they both need a good, good bloody feed they do Did she? Ooh I, I mean being in a right mess Mm. and I went with her last week, then she had to go again on Monday, but she went Saturday as well, then she had to go back up Monday the last, so she hasn't been haven't seen her since I've been gonna go up all week but the weather Mm. well I hadn't been out from Monday till yesterday Sharon's at the hospital now with the babe mm did you have a nice birthday then? Ah yes and no Oh. yeah it was alright, I think it was me that was being a bit, got a bit het up in case anybody had too much and started you know Aye but it was alright I thought that was why you hadn't been round cos I never come No went to Stella's er mine last Friday you know? Oh was it? Mm Oh happy birthday for last Friday Sheila Fifty two, aye er one date last Friday Ours came across with a card Aye, ours did. and I was busy in the kitchen when she come, oh are you having a party? Yeah, oh dear I don't know about well there you go and ours is thirty two pound a year Wendy Thirty two pound a year? I said I don't know how you dare sit there and say you haven't paid that Alice, she's paid a fiver I says I'd be ashamed, I said I wish mine was only that, so she phoned up to make arrangements to pay it a pound a week thirty two pound, that's all hers is Wendy, for the year And sounds also she's getting that cold weather payment She is, yeah are ya? Can't have it. Why? Cos I can't, only people Why? with children under five or on Income Support or Disabled. disabled, yeah Why, you're classed as disabled No I'm not cos I only receive Invalidity Does Phil not class as dis No Well Kay says it's not on Income Support, it's children under five, over sixty and er disabled Yeah, Income Support with an underlying something or other Yeah she said as, that's the way it is, I said now Joyce is over sixty, she doesn't get it our Kate and Sandra don't get it cos they haven't got a bairn under five like you know, Beverley gets it, Alex Mm I can't I don't know Kay yeah I know Kate did last time when they got it I said well it's funny how a friend of mine gets it, she says well she must be on Income Support with an underlying something like an, a different pension on top of her Income Support, which she is isn't she? Cos she got that fifteen percent disabled I think Yeah disabled yeah that's why she gets it yeah but she's on Invalidity though Mm I know still how I don't know, we can't have any rebate No I know, it's all wrong Wendy Mm, mm it is all wrong, cos I says to Stuart we had, we were at him Monday, I says why is it this year I says I get a, a thing to go to court on Monday, I says and yet last year I says I didn't pay mine till end of February she says oh well they're getting stricter this year she says, oh you've got a court thing fifteen pound and I says yeah and she says paying that, I said no I'm not paying that cos I pay what I owe, I said but I'm not paying the fifteen pound court cost Mm. well Kay said you should go and tell 'em I said I'm bloody not, I mean the rates isn't finished until the next month Wendy the fifth No no, so everybody should be given it up till then to pay anyway shouldn't they? but she said if you haven't paid your first half, they demand the lot, which I know that Mm. well I'd only paid me first month you see twenty two thirty Mm, not paid any more so how much is yours? A hundred and thirty eight A hundred and thirty eight er each yeah I know, yeah but theirs is forty something and Steven's is a hundred and thirty eight Oh is he working then? Aye oh well he should get another forty for it Yeah he did Oh and it's now a hundred and seventy seven I think Mm well her was only thirty two Wendy, I don't know so she's only Well they just tell lies Sheila that's all she was on about it, I mean John hasn't got er, a bill and Tony hasn't like, well he's not down, but David's got a bill and he should be up court on Monday Mm, why ain't John got one? They haven't sent him one Wendy they haven't sent him one, yet he had one the the time before Year before which I don't think he paid like, so I don't know I don't know, I mean even her father's got his bill in the army Wendy Mm so, but she said on the day when she come over and she getting a letter off the Social about what interest we pay on the house she's got, she says they don't pay any, she's, for last two or three years, they haven't paid any, she had to fill his side in and send all his side to Halifax or whatever, she's er Have they? and she says she's still as bad off now as when she went in to get the house, you know the five thousand odd, she's would, she's, she's, I had a bit last, I, I wished you had it all, I said don't lie, I said don't tell me you haven't had it I says cos you have, she says yeah, I says what you done with it? I says you've just wasted it, er tried to say she hadn't had it like, yeah I I'm not in turn it off you been hospital? Eh? It's a survey I'm doing, record people that come in on conversation and who's talking and That's why I've been quiet for two hours Nana what it said Ah, ah, don't touch, it's What is it? You have to sing into that, can you sing? Yes we've been to the hospital mum and they said er he is at er okay Oh are they? No not really Why? The right one's okay but the left one's still got a bit of infection so they don't really know Have they so she's got to go back in a few weeks' time Oh to get it checked again, what you not talking for Wendy? Don't you like being on tape? Have you had a drink yet? Not very good cafe this is it? you're not a housewife are you? Or are ya? Houseperson I'm amazed, er what you got to fill in ma? Just who it is and age, Yorkshire and what they are, friend, daughter or if you're English or not or Oh have you got to go Nana can I have biscuit? no I take the take the shops just I put on my thing and When have you got it like? Next Friday, twenty tapes left, batteries it's alright for twenty five pounds Hello can you just talk to me talk into me chest She left 'em yesterday, nobody's been, just Wendy Free to talk here I don't think she's on here, we only had just say hello Wendy I had it pinned on the curtain, I thought well anybody will be able to er record into that will they? Has Glen been? No Nana can I have some pop? Yeah, have That's a nice Coke Get up You been hospital? Look in your ears? And what did they say? Her ears,drawn a picture didn't they? Did they? When they sang, when that bird sang in your ear, it went Bird sang in your ear? Get off me Mum I want some pop Just wait a minute then Got ya, got ya coat, mum pass me your coat Watch me tape Oh what's that for? right see ya bye Wendy Enjoy your taping Shout bye Bye Sheila Bye, see you later Will ya? Say bye Wendy go on say something Did they come round with the mike? Yes she come yesterday afternoon I sat and I says I'll have a go, I says then I had flu didn't I? I says you gonna talk? He says Aye he wouldn't talk I says no names mentioned, well it is I have to put there and there like, but Aye twenty tapes, you don't have to use all the tapes, like you know, just,for different languages Different what? Different languages like dictionary you know and puts here whether you're Geordie or Irish and, that's why you have to put what accent they've got, see what different words you use so you've never been to school again have ya? Eh? Eh? Aye you wanna say hello? She said to me you can go and get it out, honestly, you know the other day he could hardly s well y you could see but not nearly as good as this Er when was it Wednesday? er Really thick Yeah so I said erm cos I've been in so I says to her cos you want some fags Mm. well I'll get the car and you can go out, I says you're not getting the car out and I'll not go I said you can go Mm. anyway he walked, he was only away about twenty minutes you know he wanted to get the car and for me to drive I thought well er Not in this weather. I mean er, it wasn't necessary No. I mean today I'm not gonna open me shopping on the bus but I mean it's not nearly as bad as it has been No it's not I mean going in and coming out It's, it's bad enough but Yeah you can drive you can see it anyway Yeah but Wednesday you could hardly, I said I'm not No I said you can go cos I washed er Wednesday, cos Tuesday I was going out, go out to see the mother then drop off at your house, but Oh we couldn't cos Kenneth come up early on, he says it's like this night he says I'm not properly, ah right, I says I might I says were that like, I says, I says what time? I says oh I dunno, I said oh Sharon'll fetch dad over, so we sat waiting for her and then they come Well it doesn't start till nine anyway, so you could er if, I mean if he wasn't here by I thought you wanna be there quarter nine you, you weren't there were you? No No not I thought you wouldn't be I can't afford it to, apart from that I mean and it was Yeah still on edge Yeah but I mean Yeah so I dunno, if I want to go out in it, he's gonna have to go and get somebody else, I've got time off, I mean I've gotta go out tonight, I'm on me raffle, monthly raffle Yeah tonight and then I'm on me raffle next week, but after next, I mean I can stop in the next, I mean I was, I've never been out since a week on Tuesday cos I wasn't on the raffle Friday No I never went out Sunday, I haven't been out Tuesday I just thought you know good still find the money for it still it's amazing how you do No Did Sharon finish that cardigan that she was knitting? Aye Did she tried it on was that Jackie? Yeah Right Aye she, just, she got some more pink wool Monday when we went to town, er like like an Do you yeah like angora stuff no Cos Harry wasn't in again on Sunday Yeah he was yeah Harry was erm probably fell out with me She got this pink wool like angora twenty five pence a ball, so she started that, then she come on er, no Tuesday, with that she bought some needles cos if she'd of had some more needles I could of done this one for er, now she's got the back and er sleeve done I think, half a sleeve done I think So she's right It's green, it's alright, the only thing is the band where you know you leave your loops on then, where it's joined at the back Oh where that one I haven't put on I just do the bands Oh yeah just the same oh she bought a new pattern, but she says you can have that, it's only plain so Ah is the band not joined on? Yeah, yeah it is Is it? but I'm not doing it that way, cos you have to join it at the back No, is the band not knitted on? On there Yeah Why aren't you doing it that way then? Well you have to join 'em at the back Where? What's You'll still have to join it at the back how's that? I'll just make a full band, stitch it on Join it in stitch it on through the bottom round Ah, well you'll have to take it up there then, you'd be better off joining it at the back if you're gonna join it Well you can see where it's stitched up the back, you can on Sharon's Er not if you stitch it properly, get it through the loops, don't, just cast off slack and stitch them together, you not, you not be able to tell Ah just er how I used to do years ago I like it when the band's joined on Yeah but you only knit on the welt, then you put the needles on it spare pin, on a pin No You do I'm talking about the ones, the ones what I like knitting er where you knit the band on all the time Oh no they're not Ah, that's what I'm saying Oh I've never had one of them them, baby cardigans I used to knit Oh you used to just, it was just knit Aye, aye er like not rib, a band where it's just just lines aye Aye where you knit all the time Aye no they're you put your needles off your welt, you iron on er, er Is this for Sammy Jo or not? Yeah, aye Well I showed,Sandra thought she couldn't knit didn't she? Yeah Look what she's knitting, do Aye she's put, she's knitted a jacket for herself Oh has she? and knit a jumper for Michael an'all, when Michael's in she knits him a jumper, the jumper Best that way then you don't get sick Eh? It'll be better that way if you, like you're knitting with two different colours Aye won't it? Yeah Then you won't get so sick Yeah yeah so ha Oh dear, dear, I've just felt Aye, I've not been outside, so, Alison didn't go last night Did you go over last night though? Yes Tony's bad so I, she stopped in, oh well, he would stop in if she were bad wouldn't he? Eh? Oh yeah, are you recording this ? When he come, when his first one on, said she bet nobody, why Alice come last night at six o'clock but I didn't put them on, I was only at the, I take to the shops you know you do, you have to put the name who you're talking to on What's it for then? It's all about languages for dictionary you know like Oh you'll get some language off us, good job it's difference like Yorkshire, Geordie, Welsh or owt like that Could of been using me French and I says I have one not to swear, so it gets rubbed out if it's too bad, you know she comes back, she comes back next Friday, she left twenty tapes and batteries Twenty I needn't use 'em I mean they're all marked and er No he went out last night I thought you wouldn't Er you get twenty five pound voucher What to do with it oh getting I went where yest was it yesterday? No the day before, a parcel come, I thought oh good what was it? It was Timmy's shoes and on, on the thing it's got, items so and so out of stock I ordered some things yesterday, they sent us another catalogue then, two skirts and two blouses You can't wear what you've got Aye well the blouses last, round buttons, down so I Like that skirts is elasticated, yes that erm really colourful one I got with elastic Aye, a purpley and I'm never comfortable cos it comes up here Aye well one of mine is I that bluey one is, right, half of them I think, I think it's a bit tight the elastic, it don't sit on your hips, aye it too and it twists, my blue one and that Oh it doesn't twist, but it No that one doesn't don't, uncomfortable Yeah If I didn't have a tummy it'll be alright, you know they're Aye of course it would, but it's not long enough to bag Yeah, aye. Oh I wish I hadn't to go out tonight So I ordered them sixty odd quid I ordered a green, a jade skirt So it's nine o'clock half elastic and it's like pleats at the back and er blue, nearly blue pleating and these two blouses, er I try, if they're not any good I'll send the buggers back Oh aye I went to change me poll tax and er I says to her, I says, I should be court to Monday oh she says you've got a fifteen pound court thing, I says aye, she says oh well that's fifteen pound, I says it's not cos I'm not paying it I says I'm not paying the fifteen pound to the court, I says, I says how come last year I didn't pay right round to February last year I said and yet I, your last payment's next month, you know, she said oh well they're stricter this year she says, she, if you'd pay the half year you'd of been alright Mhm you know, if you don't pay half year they come and demand the lot which I can't make that Yeah it's all I said no it's not I said I paid me first er payment I said wrote it down on one of those papers no it was a hundred and seventy eight pound odd That'll be for the issue of the summons that, fifteen pound They're not getting that well You're gonna have to sit talking cos I've taped that Oh I'm gonna talk to myself Oh Is that John's van there out the front? Aye that white thing is years old I thought, cos there's a car up road with it, must of been stood there like all the bad weather Oh ee and you want to see the colour of it Sorry about that Has he? Pa phoned yesterday Still in bother? No he's, he's being moved to troop fifteen To where? Troop fifteen Oh it's still a but it's a different camp, but I wrote this time because what he tells us I forget, I don't know if you'll be able to read it or not so I said, well the, the kids we love it with George cos he's got a smashing sense of humour Oh aye, yeah he's a great kid and he's madly in love now Oh is he? Oh lovely lass, Erica really nice, been married before, but she had a terrible life Mm no offence like, which was, they our George I think Mm but er he's really happy Oh well I says do you think you'll be setting up home together next, he said I don't know, maybe, it's a big step isn't it? Like to lay a few pounds like Mm you know, cos I mean he is Yeah lad Yeah our George Mm I said well don't go out till you're ready, as simple as that, if you don't think you're ready stop the way you are Mm that's important Aye but he loves what he's doing, absolutely loves it cos there's nowt for them here is there? No And that nothing at all for them no er forty nine Not yet No forty nine A Geordie A Wearsider Oh I'm not a Geordie Well you're down as a Geordie Did you see her on Take A Break the snooker game she was from Sunderland He says are you called a Geordie she says no I'm a Mackem he says what's a Mackem ? She says Mackem and Tackem I dunno but that's what people say Oh I forgot where she lived red light murders Aye, outside the Blue Monkey Nightclub in the town centre Oh twenty three, somebody was it he's stabbed Aye there were a lad on here today from Dunscroft, oh you'd have the telly on I'd have the telly on, er some competition sitting in from Dunscri Dunscroft, he was on he won summat Oh last week Oh had the key Oh was as drunk as the lord last night Yeah this lad was, now he was, coming in the bar, he sat just as you come in the door and then he moved to that long thing where we sit, well I go at the bar and Jackie was sat there Jackie, I said time to be social, no I cos I laugh, I were laughing me head off me and he's jabbering away move like that, his arms moving you know, then he sets off to sing, well,la, la and Johnny said shut up I know Johnny put his glass of beer on the next table to ours and sets off to see Mickey, then he stands up this lad sit down you,must have thought for his beer, I think he was like, I says to Jack I says er you want to put his trousers is all undone, you know sat and his trousers what and his jumper, so our Johnny went he said get that covered up and, but he pulled it down like that, and now he took 'em out he walked through the door and his trousers were falling down but What is he very old? No, only about I'd say late twenties Ed, you know, do know what it was though, he never had a drink he just sat there talking to himself, having a good chat to somebody , aye How is the mother have you head? Oh er Sandra went to see see Jason or anybody Jane uses the car then on Friday didn't she when she's been hairdressers? Yeah, unless I dunno if she's gone up home she's getting a lift off erm thingummy Doris Doris and somebody weren't one of her lads getting engaged, I dunno if it was Oh like this weekend or, or what or what Er little Ronnie's had a baby girl Ah has she? three pound something Ah bloody hell calling her Rachel Oh oh she's got her lass ain't she? Aye, I'd love to of had a lass Aye Aye, but three pound odd bloody hell Aye, I don't know how many ounces it was, three pound something she was, yeah I dunno if it's tape's finished or what Well stop it and open it Right don't everybody stop talking now cos I've put it on Michael, Michael give us a song, sing, sing a song, sing do you want one? Yeah, I've got these What you got there? See five P, ten P There's no more left these plastic What's the other one look, there's a black beard on in there That's Sammy Jo's You can spend that you know What? That's real money, old one, you try and spend others or, five P, now watch that ashtray Whose tickets, whose , whose class is it Nicola, yours or Michael's? What me mam's got Here are then, can have that one, don't lose that it's worth a lot of money Don't take that to school She can take it Princess Diana Oh there's one for you same as Nicky I've got, here are, there's another one, different one to that, there's Nicola's, leave 'em there I haven't got a Diana, the Queen Mother and the Queen left talking about my girl, my girl Oh what's this? Sing, Michael sing No baa, baa black sheep have you any no, no sing, sing No that's er Brown Kenneth he can't, cats and dogs Oh look a number one Two R, what's two R? A number one That must be foreign it's a number one That's our penny, yeah there's two R I dunno what it is but it's full Take me freezer bags Give us a song Nicola no I close my eyes I think she must've gone to town drew back the curtains ah, ah I've done the back, sleeve half a side to see for certain Sharon's done hers, she's done the green one, she's on to the pink one Professional microphones innit? Stick on the collar I found a pattern of hers, jacket in white in that bag what for a cardigan I wanted to do for school No it's five pence No I know, well have, what you doing? Don't lose them, no you don't need them What? You don't need them Well I do you need them, you don't need none of them, don't lose them two big ones cos I'll be after ya No you won't put this in, in that I close my eyes Oh no, these are big ones No leave those big ones, they're mine I put my Quick tip them all out, tip them all out Nana where did you get that? Er a lady fetched it er for us to do and she comes back next week for it, just to put it on when anybody's in, just a conversation, for new words for a dictionary or something Oh I just have to put it on when we're talking and it goes on the tape you see Then you can put it back, it will go any time won't it cos my mummy's got one but hers has got a radio I have to turn it on Oh he knows twinkle, twinkle you don't know twinkle Yes I do twinkle twinkle little star how I wonder twinkle, twinkle little star how I, star twinkle, twinkle little star how I wonder twenty nine Mm, yeah, Accent, Yorkshire Yorkshire, Yorkshire Talking about my girl Your mum's a Geordie A Geordie what am I a Yorkshire? Mm, mm And Paul is that's right you wanna play wrestling grandson wrestling submit Who is that, that lady? submit, submit yeah give in what whoever's gonna speak Mm submit no ah, you ow sub submit No When you doing the shop like, next week? I don't know, when we get some more money, loads of money and some things for 'em, I, I forgot what you call, newsagent bull fighters something like that what we make it into er Er where you get brochures and things to go on holiday, what? don't know what you mean oh like er, like where you go to book your holidays? Yeah, like on a trip to Marks and Spencers Er pil give up when we went to Marks and Spencers on our trip we went there an'all Did ya? er what they call them places where you go and book your holiday? Travel agents Travel agents Yeah right You're a loser you are I know I am trying to think I want it, it's my biscuit Oh Aye, if there's any did you shop yesterday mam? No I went tomorrow When did pa come back? Last night Mm Have them I suppose so mm Shall I put this back Give us that cracker thing I put this, where's this, where your dad put the screws? I don't know On top of the thing there, look Where? I mean the true Insy Winsy Spider go on No insy winsy spider climbing up the spout, in down came the rain drops and washed the spider out No sing Miss Polly Miss Polly had a dolly who was sick, sick, so he phoned for the doctor, quick, quick, quick you sing it Miss Polly had a dolly that was sick, sick, sick No he don't so they phoned for the doctor very quick, quick, quick Quick, quick, quick Said Miss Polly send her straight to bed and he wrote on the label for a pill he says I'll be back in the morning with my bill, bill, bill he knocked at the door with a rat a tat with a rat a tat, tat what else you know? insy winsy spider climbing up the spout again What else, what else do you know? insy winsy spider climbing up the spout no one, two, three, four, five, once I caught a fish alive, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, then I let him go again again why did you let it go because I caught my fingers so That one which finger did it bite, this little finger on my right Right You sing it sing it Miss Polly had a dolly who was sick, sick? Yeah, that one Singed it Sing it again Na Na sing one Miss Polly had a dolly who was sick, so he phoned for the doctor be quick, quick What else?said Miss Polly to the doctor No What is it then? Miss Polly had a dolly who was sick, sick so he phoned for the doctor to be quick, quick, he phoned for the doctor to be quick he knocked on the door with a with a rat a tat, he phoned for the doctor Yeah, then what happens? he knocked on the he knocked on the door with a rat a tat tat he knocked on the door with a rat a tat tat said Miss Polly put her straight to bed to bed he wrote on a paper a bill, bill, bill I'll be back in the morning with my in the morning with my pill, pill, he knocked on the door with a rat a tat tat What's that other one? Insy spider climbing up the spout We do it like that Come on, you do it Insy winsy spider climbing up spout, came the rain and Is that right? Insy winsy spider climbing up the spout, down That's enough What's the other one? fish like? Five little ducks went swimming one day Yeah five little ducks went swimming one day one day over the hills and far away far, far away mother duck says quack, quack four little ducks came swimming back came back four little ducks went swimming one day over the hills and far away over the hills and far away then the little duck said quack, quack quack, quack What you saying here, what is it? three little ducks came swimming back three little ducks went swimming one you sing it one day over the hills over the hills and far away that's enough one little duck went one said quack, quack four no one little duck said quack, quack, two little ducks came swimming back I've got a race two little ducks went swimming one day over the hills and far away went swimming one day over the hills and far away one little duck went tickle your ear quack, quack the one little duck said quack, quack, quack and all the little ducks came swimming back I'm not on that one yet That's what it is That's last one Yeah I know I'm on number two quack, quack, one little duck came swimming back, one little duck went swimming one day over the hills and far away one duck said quack far away one duck said quack, quack, quack, quack all the ducks came swimming back I got it So you make a better door than a window? No caught a fish like why Why did you let it go? because it bite my finger so my finger so which which finger oh I, I can't hear ya this little finger on my right What they gonna do to him then ? right They gonna kill him? Watch it Watch it I hope they kill him, say I've never seen ah it's boring innit? I think he should slice his face up very small What other one? Miss Polly had a dolly who was sick, sick again Miss Polly had a dolly that was sick, sick, sick Miss Polly had a dolly who was sick, sick, sick so he phoned for the doctor to be quick, quick, quick phoned for the doctor to be quick, quick, quick he said Miss Polly put her straight to bed, he knocked on the door with a rat a tat tat you do it like that Oh do you? sing then not like that you do it like that Like that? Yeah Okay, sing it then Miss Polly had a dolly who was sick Now you sing it loud no Do it like that Like what? ah, will you do it properly? Yes I said Have a job staying here you've gotta go with daddy in a minute No no Why? on me own On your own Stay there that milk and I'll get you another one I wanna do all of them on me own so he phoned for the doctor to be quick, quick, quick, said Miss Polly put her straight to bed he wrote on a paper for a pill, pill, pill I'll be back in the morning with my bill, bill, bill morning with my bill, bill sing I don't know it Miss Polly had a dolly who was sick no sick There was an owl whose names was Blanche perch bravely on a narrow branch when she asked if she could fly, the others said into the sky high, high, high, so one fine day they came out and stood on a branch all big and stout, she jumped, she thought that she could fly Ow animal is a bit a finger Just leave it there It don't go there It does It don't What is it? What is it? Well Nana what is it? What is it? What is it? Microphone It's nana's lipstick, put some lipstick on you put some lipstick on, you've got to sing when you, when you put it on though, sing a song and put some lipstick on No I close my eyes, drew back you sing, you put some on No Oh, put it back like that then Is that, is the lipstick at back? Yeah, but you've got to sing when you put it on What did he do to him? Try it on then put it on you? No, turn it on It's on look, it's that colour lipstick Turn that on what's in there What? that owt in there No leave it switched off It's not off? It is switched off Where? That thing Yes leave it off It's not off It is off It int like that It is It int look at it, not like your face Boom Boom boom do it boom, boom I break your neck off Er I'll break your neck off Ow I'll break your finger off ow, oh, ow, ow, ow do it again No it hurts Done, it didn't hurt me didn't hurt me, did it hurt you? Ow, ow, ow, ow Tell Becky to wear them break your fin your little finger No I break your finger off no, no it hurts I've turned thing round, I put it there No leave it on top I can put on it it's too hot it's too hot you, it's too hot, it's too hot Right say ta, ta, say goodbye, say goodbye Goodbye Louder No Now say goodbye to it No Say goodbye No Goodbye No Quick No Say goodbye No My palace if I were a king it's more than a palace it's my everything. As a Queen waiting there with the silvery hair. In a shanty, in old Shanty Town. a king it's more than a palace it's my everything. As a Queen waiting there with the silvery hair. In a shanty, in old Shanty Town. Yes sir! It's alright, it's a survey I'm doing. Aye. Got to get all these voices on it. Just for languages for the dictionary. Oh dear. But not swearing. They want some fresh language. Fresh new words for the dictionary. You can talk Charlie. Just talk normally, you know it doesn't Aye, I know, I matter if there's any swearing on they'll cut it out. Oh they, oh well He'll cut it out, yeah, yeah Aye, aye. Aye, put a bleeper on it. Aye. I just have to have all your names down and your ages and what Aye. Yorkshire. Are you Yorkshire? Lincolnshire are you? Where are we? Just, just I'm Yorkshire You are borders, aren't you? But er Yorkshire. well, yeah Yeah, but your accent Humberside, isn't it like. is Yorkshire. Used to be Lincolnshire. Well I, I thought we were all in the Yorkshire region. Aye, I always thought it was to with Yorkshire. Yeah. Cos, aren't they, they're on about again, you know. Aye, they are. it's, it's Nottinghamshire. Aye, up there. I used to go in Taylor's, Taylor's you can be in three different counties in his yard. Three different counties Cos South Yorkshire comes so far do down Doncaster Road, don't it? Aye, it does, then it says welcome to Humberside. New, the new one is it? You can tell it gets very rough. Aye. Aye, the forgotten land Steady down. innit? Steady down. Aye Well, you know, if, if they come like the bloody clappers there! Oh. Int there er, int there a gravestone or summat on that side Aye, with a pony and trap run away . Many years ago he were coming home Oh yeah. What, with an horse and cart like? Yeah, that's where he got, he got struck by lightning. He what? Got struck by lightning. Did he? Yeah. I thought pony run away. I heard Into that big dyke. Into the stone or something? Yes, it's still there! I remember it when I were a lad. Still there. Still some people go and stop and have a look at it like. Oh aye, it's still there. Is it, is the writing and that on it? Yes! I mean years ago you didn't have barriers up. I mean It must've laid down No it's still stuck up. Is it? Yeah. I've got some cyclists up at Haystock but years ago I mean when they coming up there, it's a long road from Doncaster Market an an an deep old ditches Well you used to have some good effective carts there. They was six, they was six or seven foot high when you were sat in them, weren't they? Oh aye. Come on Tom. Didn't there used to be a cottage on that roadside where them big tanks is, didn't there used to be some cottages. Used be a barn there. Weren't some erm farm cottages there as well. Aye, well, they, they, were only, they, they, they, were put up later them. Like prefab things? Aye. Aye. Crossroads and then you keep going Yeah. and then it's all flat Aye. Them on Doncaster road's been knocked down, haven't they? All knocked down and then, and then you go to Jackson's place, don't you. That were a poultry farm. That's right, aye, aye, I've seen his and the sells That's right, yeah, yeah. How are you feeling Not very well. No, look at the weather. to get up here, I'll tell you. Oh dear. Bloody headwind and and all that bloody air about and I can't get any. You need a gas mask. Aye. He suffers from what you've got, you know in Doncaster infirmary again with oxygen and he always carries one of them things, you know, Aye. but he's been in again. You want one of them and you want to use it just when you've got to use it. Don't use, don't make a habit on it. I used to, I used to be like that you know terrible. I've an idea what they're idea what they're going through. There's a fellow he was a deputy at and he, and he died of that. Are you on tablets for Angina. Yeah. Aye. I'm on tablets, yeah, yeah. When you can't breathe right, that's putting a strain on it, on your Our mother-in-law Get a bit of pain You want to get some of them you give two or three squirts I ain't been to no doctor's, well I'm lying I had to go again, I had to like because I've been getting these here bloody , I must've had them ten or fifteen year or more and, cos I'm on these here tablets now for the old stomach like, and that like. come and see me before you get any more tablets. I've had two or three of them buggers but I think I'd better go this time as I can't get no more. Is that why you drink brown ale? Aye, I'm gonna drink bloody brown ale, yeah oh aye, oh I couldn't drink that bugger. I couldn't at one time. Although since I've been on these tablets I can eat A lot of acid in them onion, owt like and apple pie owt like, I never had none for living memory? I used to drink mild once, that Warwick was marvellous years ago. It used to be best, it used to be best bloody ale, weren't it? It were Mild. Warwick, years ago. Mild and bitter. I was thinking it was What? Bloody mild! Mild and bitter you'd never mix that you'd be, you'd be sick first! I was usually sick and all like, well that was your stomach. I'd put on me Not us, Doug! bog there then! It was only last week were my birthday, Charlie, last Friday. I know, I, I had that promise on. Oh ho! take her to the club Bye!bloody filthy!. Bye! beard? Aye, you know, er, you know, er if I go through there I feel bloody filthy I do! if you're on a ship but that's different. Oh aye, aye, aye, aye, aye, You know, it's bloody rocking about and you're on a ship and Yeah. Well I should say sea, sea air an all I've, I've got to get a shave every day I have an all I am, it's cos I've been in the drinking. Aye. I had in last night. In where? Ah well he must've wanted to I said to her, I asked her cos she went down. Aye. She thought she'd bailed him out but she hadn't and er she said she went down she said aye like, you know, Soon after we left? Yeah. Well Julie's man's in there now. You what, love? You with Julie's husband. Oh Been fighting, falling out I always said can you go back? Yeah. I did, I always said he would go back in time. I've still got same razor Lathered up, started to shave when I come to clean it there weren't a bloody blade in the bastards had pinched it. Pinched bloody razor blade? You know old Aye, aye aye. Jimmy used to be a pal of mine, used to go in there regular and he'd got one of these new electric razors Aye. and he's going like this he says they're no bloody good these. I says you haven't and he er and he had all his bloody civvies pinched. He says, he says I went, he says I had to go out there stuck in me bloody army stuff. He said I went up to the pub he says, here's this bloody mate of mine playing piano, he says he's got all my gear on! Aye. pinching it. I was home on leave one weekend and er I went up to er Scarborough a fellow a car, it weren't my car I was home on leave. And I took wife with me and there was er old fellow I took him and all. So we're going to Scarborough in this big yank's car and the fellow said if we don't, if want it I'll give you a fiver, for petrol like and that it was quite a bit of money then. So, got there, didn't want bloody car. Coming back and a hell of a storm, coming onto York, York road, Flax, Flaxton Aye, yes. road it were, always remember and all lights went out so we pulled into this the guest house but couldn't get in and next door was a pub so cos an Army camp near some soldiers come in and says in morning I says aye,he said what time are you going, I said Hey, love, there's a bob down here! half-past six or seven o'clock I reckon there's a shilling down there, I don't know! So when I got up in the morning this bloody landlord was here, full side of beef, oh, I said, I don't want that bugger going home in that and getting stopped Full side of beef! I, I daren't have it. Bloody full side, half of Well how much was that gonna cost you? Oh it wouldn't have cost nothing, it would cost me something if I got caught in them days bloody ration. Pick it up then, Les, she's not gonna pick it up. Can't hear. No. Going to the loo. Your next door neighbour were in last night. Yes, er Charlie said so. Thought he might come tonight. I'll have to go to the loo. there Charlie. What? just leave it there cos I'm going to the loo. No! It's only battery. No swearing! I don't bloody gimmick! Let's get on about Whistle Charlie. Whistle, I can't bloody whistle now! Can't even hear now, Charlie, can you? I can't, I bloody can't! Be bloody careful cos you don't know what the hell's going on this bloody,this bloody wheel's still going round, Doug. used to have them in the pub and then to play it back and people didn't realise it was there voice you know. Didn't realise it was there voice. Oh dear. There's many a time wished I'd had one of them buggers when I've gone to these meetings, union meetings and that. Aye, aye. That's right, yeah. I'll tell you what two years since I were working at collieries. he said be very careful what you say have you down in evidence then. Yeah, yeah. Some bugger's, a young got away with that money, hadn't? Eh? He's been crafty. Wh wh what bloody police doing? Well he's Well why didn't they get a mile away from where they put that money they could've, they could've been planned it away, a mile away all There were a thousand men out, Charlie! Eh? There was a thousand men on that! Ah, ere get on this bugger and Ah, but he went up a railway track, didn't he? Yeah, but if they'd have, if they'd have said look, we're onto erm a job now which would've been a big job and it looks like it finishing up in Yorkshire, finishing up in Lancashire, be ready if we give a call out. Yeah. You know, right you, we're in Yorkshire. surround them Well that's what I said why didn't they surround it a mile away. They didn't want to surround him just there and then where he could see them. Get, get well away and he, and he had to go back But he's, he's had all the answers, hasn't he, he's He's known the area. Yeah. Eh? He must know the area. Got all the answers. Oh, aye! Well he got up that railway track, I mean, bloody hell, they might've thought well that's one way he's gonna go. It's only a mile away where that er red bloody pickle thing was. Aye it is, it is, yeah, yeah. I reckon somebody who knew the area very well. Yeah, he does. Nice big plan that Lassies today, they're getting them,th they're asking them to do too much. I mean going round selling stuff and that sort of thing, they're asking them, they're doing a man's job They shouldn't around by themselves. No, they shouldn't. They were warned when that Susan Lamplaugh or whatever Ah, there was, there was went missing. was there? No. No. They were warned then not to let the woman go theirselves. Yeah. Bloody ridiculous. Yeah. Same as that er, what do they call him, Panther, wasn't he Aye weren't he? Mm. Hear no more about him, do you? He got, what, were it five, five life sentences? Summat like that But why int it? Yeah. Why Why look at that bloody Sutcliffe how many did he do? More than thirteen, him. Aye, thirteen, weren't it that bugger. Is that Sutcliffe? Aye, thirteen. he gets sixty-three years, you know, I mean what's the use of keeping a bugger like that for sixty-three years, it's bloody ridiculous, innit? Oh, bloody hell! I mean some of those old age pensioners bloody Oh, Muirlins, that's Muirlins, Muirlins, Lindorm's er different. Well Bernie oh maybe twelve months, maybe six months, I don't know, and er he, he made that big football pitch I know, you told me, aye for them and he said there ain't a bugger in England that's good! He said we daren't do dead level with spirit level, bloody turf! I don't know how much turf they to put on this here for a pris for a prisoner to kick a ruddy football on. You know it's not right this Well it's, I mean it's letting them know what's going off at other prisons. There's half, half these people come out of jail and they, and they've come out and they're back in! Yeah. Cos they know the Yeah. Yeah. Get grub for nothing. Three square meals a day, ain't there? That jury lad that come here, well that jury lad that come here telling us, he said, do you know, they've a better bloody than what I had! Their own room, television, bed the bloody lot he said. They're in for punishment not nourishment. What they should've done, instead of having all them machines on that moors they should've had damn bugger stripped to waist digging it out. Yeah, yeah, yeah, they should like they do in America, give them some work. That's it and let them, let them get on with it in the middle of bloody summer with a pint of water and say, look, that pint of water has to last you the day. Yeah. Their bloody tongues they'd have been, they'd have been as thick as these tables by end of day. They would. Oh yeah, aye. Oh aye, yeah. Now he's gonna get long sentence or summat He's gonna get a longer sentence? Aye, he's gonna get a longer sentence I should think he is an all. Yeah. Bloody ridiculous! Three year, three year he got, didn't he? Yeah, three years Killed two, killed two people there! What in a car? Yeah. And he were gonna get three year! Oh! Cos the father and son shouted in the court. He jailed them for the weekend, the judge. There's them, Yeah. there's them Kray bloody brothers. Well, I don't agree what they did, but they were only killing their own, their own kind, weren't they? Aye, they were. And they , and they got thirty-odd year! When we went to Portugal there was er a lass, we'd saved some money and I said, I said don't spend it all Well who were that big film star that were mixed up with them. Oh, er Windsor, was it, Barbra? Oh, Barbra Windsor. Aye and all them they're all Aye, they were all mixed up with them weren't they? No, no, not that one, Doug, this were a big woman, weren't she? And I believed she died, didn't she? Didn't come to her funeral? Or did one of Krays die? A big blonde woman she was. Oh, Diana Dors. Ah, Ronnie, Ronnie Knight. Aye, Ronnie Knight. Diana Dors's husband. Oh that little bugger you were on about, aye he killed some bugger, didn't he, in, in a cafe and pissed off abroad. They can't get him. All right, Aye, the bugger's still Right, go on. But what, what are them er When I get home I'll have a cheese sandwich or summat I will have one of them Krays, you know that young lad whose, Aye. he's erm made one of the Krays his dad, have you read it? Well his stepdad. He's, he's from our village him, he writes to him and he goes and visits him. Aye! One of the Krays. Hold on Doug, I'll get them. Aye, he's only eleven years old, int he? Yeah. He calls him dad now. I don't know how he smokes at all! No Your mam used to be like that but she had she had a cylinder of oxygen in the house as well. You want to run round the block, Les! maybe better get doctor's advice on owt like that. Les. That's what I saying, but it's better seeing doctor, it's no good somebody, me coming in Oh no, but I, You know he should be on them now though. You wanna, you wanna get, you wanna, got them tablets, or the tablets for your breathing. You try and get one of them buggers what blows you up, Les. What, a blow-up doll? Aye, them, them bloody oxygen things. A bitter shandy. Bitter shandy. at any rate, for one. Mm? tonight. Is that lager? Mm. Yeah. Squeeze it. you wanna see when he gets busy it gets lower than that. You reckon them three buggers up there it's a good half way down a bloody pint, innit? Eh? Them three pints nearly half way down innit. Oh there's tricks in every trade. Oh aye. but it looks horrible when it's right up. I've been to London. It's bloody terrible is a pint in London. I like a collar on. Yeah, yeah. Cos it's not appetizing if it's er I remember I remember years ago used to be, I like to see tipping the bugger in like that. used to be er, you know as you're going down to infirmary down from you turn right on the road don't you? There used to be a doctor, called Doctor Bessie lived there You know where I mean, don't you? Where pub is now on opposite side? No, before you get to Cumberland. Oh yeah. First turning. There's a house there and Doctor Bessie used to live there, a woman doctor, and everybody started work at er what they call it? I C I er International, International Well she had exa had to examine everybody. Course there's er a big, big nigger come one day for a job and she says get stripped off. She says, what's a matter with your toes? He says, I developed toesillitis. She says tonsillitis Toesa she said me tonsillitis Oh, tonsillitis. She said well he said after that I got it off pneumonia. She said, she said there's one thing you won't get diphtheria! I knew what was coming! I knew there was summat bloody coming here. I knew there were a bugger coming then. Like the five legs last week. I never got head nor tail of that. Five legs. Oh dear. bloody if you bring some without any tails on? I'll bring them Wednesday! I I'll put them in fridge. Aye, I'll, I'll bring them down Friday night. They're beau they're beautiful, they are. Eh? They're about that big he ain't paid me that bugger, that reminded me! I'll send him a bloody letter next, tomorrow, I'll send him a bloody letter. Solicitor's letter. Aye, I'll send him a solicitor's letter that bloody I haven't seen him in here Aye, he were in last night. Ducks without tails? He asked me how much Pardon? Ducks without tails did you say? Without but this is an old shop at and they're about that big by that aren't they? Aye, they are, Tom. look bloody fabulous! Oh. They hadn't that veil on them like they used They are really marvellous! I've never tried them, like, I dunno. They make them in bloody big batches now Ah, but this is er a real old Aye, they will do, Ken. shop and even the you know. Aye. It's a fabulous shop. Tom, innit? Oh, everything. Aye. You know and it's not fat, not all that fat, you know, but when, when I were a lad Well I mean That's how I like belly pork. Oh I like belly pork. Aye I like the crackling, you know. You do? Oh aye. Well he brought me some without that on it Oh aye. Bye god, it's bloody good that. Oh I like it. It were about one pound thirty or summat about that width Yeah. and about that length. I like the crackling on it. And the steak and kidney pies, they're one sixty-five Pound of, pound of meat in them, Tom, there must be, there must be. you know, and they're about that big all in, in this er silver foil. Aye. Aye. They're cooked, but I mean they just warm up out of this world! Well isn't a pork pie thirty bob? I think they were thirty bob. I'd better have a word with him. If you see him, tell him! You know these curd cheesecakes? Yeah. I love a curd cheesecake oh, they're so lemony. You're know them copper curds? Yeah. Aye Mm, like old-fashioned good curd cheesecake. Mm. I can see them making your mouth water! Aye! What did you bring old Bernard last week? No, that was the Stilton cheese. Cheese. Oh aye. No, I, I was there an and they were selling cheeses so, I have them every year really, and I'm just finishing one and I got one I got five. I bought five kept another one for my sen and let Bernard have one let er woman opposite us have one. You know she's she's a councillor isn't she? She's chef here. No, she's cooked here! The chef, with a Oh! Aye, aye, I know her. Aye Carol and er Len, Len had one. Aye. Three fifty a piece. How much? Three pound fifty. Just over two pound. Two pound forty-nine in Tesco it were, a pound. Mm. Stilton. That size, thirty bob a piece. One pound six. bit of Guinness in her bitter. Do you swallow that bloody smoke from them buggers. Aye, can you stand them? No, but I thought you seemed to be a long while getting the bugger out. Ah Christ! I don't know how you can swallow that bugger! I never swallow smoke. I don't know how he can swallow them there I swallow enough bloody smokes Aye, when I first come in, I, I grabbed it, I grabbed that pipe bacca. Aye. It's only, it's only when you come out Aye, aye. It's not bothering me now. No. Just when when you you wouldn't come, would you? Eh? You wouldn't come if it bothered you. Ah! I tell you what I can't stand sme er smoke in a bedroom. Cigarette smoke. Bye god it's bloody terrible! better? No! I know and I Would you? Well I'm glad I didn't come for my promise, Charlie, cos I smoke in bed. Oh, well I'll excuse you that night. Just the one night I would've excused you. You'd have been smouldering next morning, wouldn't she Charlie? Aye I would. I would. You can smell, you can, you can smell it Bye god,in a bedroom. we live above front room like? Yeah. Yeah. Our Julie comes, I mean I smoke cigars in house You can smell them. Yeah. and I can tell when our Julie's in. Yeah. Oh yeah, you can smell it. You can in mine, yeah. Aye. and it, it gets up there! Yeah. You can bloody smell it, can't you? Yeah, it does. It drifts up. Yeah. Maybe you can smell the cigarette smoke and yet you're smoking them buggers. Yeah, different, different smell, you see. Different smell you see. Aye, aye, aye. Oh aye, aye. Different smell! Yeah. Yeah. that's different, different bloody different scent, Yeah. Mm. smell. See li li things like beer. If you've been drinking beer you can you can't smell beer on anybody else, can you? No. No. No. No. If even you've only had half When I go to bed I go up with a cig. You do? And when I wake up, I light one and go down, yeah. I used to do that but I don't like smoke all night in bed No, no. but I, I have them with us, you know. Year and year since I used to get up make fire for Alice in the mornings, this is, must be ten or twelve year since, and light a cig up. Well I must've passed out one morning. Aye. And now I've never smoked a bugger since before breakfast, never No, I do. before breakfast, no. I do. I always go upstairs with a cig. I don't light it then and I light one in there. Do you? Yeah. Then when I wake up I light up. Oh, no. Yeah. You, know if anybody been ea smelling, eating onion and you, you blow on him bugger off be away from you then. See it's come to me maybe eleven o'clock, half-past eleven in the morning. Yeah. You know, you Aye. Smell it. Yeah. Aye. your breakfast and your lunch and Yeah. you could still smell Yeah. Bloody garlic's same. Oh garlic must be terrible that. I mean, I mean garlic and chew the bugger I think it does you good. It is good, it is good for you. doesn't half stink does that. We were working colliery Oh Jesus! Stink! He used, he used to bring a gar he was at work everyday, little bugger and you know Garlic. eating. Mm. But you don't know what If you'd, if you'd had a little bit yourself you wouldn't, you wouldn't have smelt it. No. You don't, you don't know what's in that bloody stuff though, do you? What garlic? You don't. It's all right, Charlie. Is it? Aye. Well It's good for you. I've got some chi er cheese with garlic, Aye. garlic in. Oh that with that green Spread cheese. in it? Spread cheese, Oh. The other week and I'd never had it before but er I liked it. Oh Margaret had some the other day, she said do you want a bit of this cheese, it's green, it's some, it's some green, I said I don't want any of that Chives are, yeah. bloody stuff. Chives, yeah. I don't want none of that bugger you wanna try it. You might, Nice, Charlie. You might, you might take to it. I might do but I don't Good, good for your stomach. I don't It's good for your sex life! Where can you get it from? Parsnips is as well, Charlie. Eat parsnips. Aye, but I've been chewing them buggers this last six months but it hasn't worked for me I like parsnips though. Yeah, I do. Don't like them. Aye. roasted round beef, aye. They're too sweet, Les, I don't like them. I don't like them. I've eat them, like but I've There's not much, much I don't like. No, I'm not, no. I've, I've tried er, er er sugarbeet before now. Aye, I've tried that. Sugarbeet, aye. Well they don't hurt you or owt like that. No! Well, I should say they not Same as mangoes. They make jam with bloody mangoes, don't they? Aye. I should say sugarbeet ain't far off from a bloody parsnip. No, no. They take mangoes I used to take these here loads you know the little er seeds, Yeah. jam seeds? they're not going in seeds, they're all going to make pieces of wood. No, make seeds out of, out of , out of wood. They mix it up and put it in that! Aye. He gave me a lift. Did he? No, I worked late. I normally catch quarter-past-five bus and I get in about ten-past-six, but he wanted me to work late and I says, well how late? He says, it will not be that late and I'll take you home anyway. So I didn't put me coat on, had me coat over me legs. Aye. Are you? What's up with you? Weird you are. I'm in the house all day. Oh. You should've phoned me up. Well, I went to the town earlier on with Debbie. I've not got your number. And you? Is it? And yours Aye. I always go there as well is that what she said? They depress me watching these programmes. Why? Cos I could with a bit. Looking at all package deals today Tenerife, erm eighteen nights, hundred and five or summat but you had to go sixth February. Mm. Really cheap package deals. I said to John last night he's going to London on fifteenth, oh well, the fourteenth if we're back on Sunday. I says, you're definitely going then? He says, yeah, he says, why? Oh, cos I'm going out with Paul that weekend, I says, I just wanna make sure I can definitely arrange it all and he went are you? About half-six. Yeah, cos I thought you were working afternoon borrowed his bike Yeah. and used the other bike. Yeah. I watched football and then went out I went there about one o'clock. We went to is that what you're on about? Yeah. Oh. Cos he went to football instead, spent morning playing football Shit! cos he come about one o'clock. shall take that one out? Never go out in the week. We don't go out at all now, do we? Been out for ages. turned back cos of fog. He had to turn back cos of fog. I've seen, I've seen Spud Yeah, Spud still went out. They, we, when Spud went out we thought that they weren't still coming. No, they rang Chelle's to get my phone number Yeah. but when they were ringing I were on phone to John's mum because there were someone hanging about house, so I talked to John's mum for ages on phone and then Debbie rang, didn't she? Mm. so as he'd been trying to get through it was always engaged. In the middle of nowhere at this phone box. So they travelled home, about time they got home it were too late to be ringing. I said that, didn't I? Mm. I said if I'd known they aren't, they, they weren't coming I'd have gone out. No, not yet. I think I'm going back to college in September, take a nursing course. Is your mum going with them? No, I didn't think she would. I was thinking about her yet our finishes at school at quarter-past-three she could go and pick him up but no they want me to do it. My Auntie Is she? Mm. So who's going then but my Auntie Jean's not going in cos it'll upset her an all. She's just gonna sign papers an that. Me mum don't think she'll settle. She wanted to come home and see the dog. You know what she's like with the dog What are they doing with the dog? an all. Have they? Sure you don't want a drink? Go on then, Paul. Coffee? Yeah. Er have you got a cold drink? Water. milk? Milk. Some wine? Oh no. tastes of alcohol in that What is the Windthorpe for then? Is Windthorpe just for when they got old. Aye. It's incontinent, you know. Well my Nanny, you know me Nana, don't you? Was always tottering up and down with glasses on? Aye, yeah. She's erm, ta, she's got Alzheimer's and she's getting really bad, she's getting a danger to herself and she's got to go away to tomorrow. Has she? She doesn't know what she's talking about half the time, she doesn't know who anybody is. she used to talk to me, well in the summer an that, you know, on about she's, I don't know Oh, she thinks she's just come home from Yeah, yeah, yeah, I thought that, you know. You have it with sugar, don't you? No, I don't have any now. And on about you know. Yeah, she thinks erm her Mum and Dad's still alive That were what she said to her that day and she says to you, if you carry on I'm gonna have you put in that orphan's home. Yeah, she's gonna have me put in an orphan's home Well that's how,you know, she's going back years ago. Well that's what it is. This disease, it like, it destroys all the brain cells, you know Yeah, mm. all the memory cells and it destroys recent ones so she can't remember things from recent but she can remember things from years and years and years ago, it's really funny. Cos if any of our family went up some she would know some she would like, Michael and, and er Rob live away, she says they're not her sons Mm. You know. You know, but, she knew who I was, like. Then our Sandra went last Saturday and she didn't know who she was. Yeah. She always knows me Auntie Jean because me Auntie Jean what favourite from being young Aye. and like me Auntie Jean has to go down three and four times a day sometimes. But she thinks me Mum's one of the nieces whose a tart and an alcoholic. That's what she's always saying to your mum, ain't she? It's a shame But like now she's a da a real danger to herself. Sh she floods kitchen and Mm. Does she? Yeah, she flooded kitchen the other week, didn't she? I know she was always on about she's frightened in there on her own Mm. Well kids stay all the time but they've been using it as a doss house, you know, Yeah. got friends to go in messing about all the time and they've,al everything that she had that were decent they've ruined it all. Yeah. Oh. Yeah That's what I Thought it were one he fetched down. No, I never realised Chris owed me a fiver for me wage and I says to him I had to pay me bill for me food for week and it was like six quid. And I says to him, have you got a fiver? And he went, you what? Looked at me like that. That fiver you owe me out of me wage. Oh yeah, sorry. He would've tried to get away with it. I weren't having none of it though. How much do you get there a week? Not enough. How much? Erm me basic should be forty-three, but I get fifty-five to sixty plus if he's I get commission depending on if I work late. Well that's not very often this time of year. Before Christmas I were getting seventy some weeks, weren't I? Building up to Christmas it were like, in between sixty to seventy, but this time of year I'm just on me rock bottom. It would, which is like fifty, fifty five. Have you done all your training? Have you got your paper an that. Yeah. Aye. Yeah it will be, won't it? She's getting a bit fed up Is she in college full-time then? No. Were you? No. Were you part-time? I used to go in one, one day a week. Bar Friday she goes into hairdressers Yeah. Bus stop, the you know where Oh yeah. Duke Street. Yeah and There's a hairdressers up, upstairs. stairs, yeah. No, there's a Co-op one on one side, one above Co-op and then on other side erm is it called Jean's, or something like that? I'll tell you the one Yeah, is it just a little door that leads up to it? I think so, I'm not sure. Oh! Hair by someone it is. Deborah works there erm, she used to work at Debbie's shop, summat Jane. Jane. Jane Oh. No, no Jane Jane is it the same one as that? Jane she works there yeah. Yeah it's just a woman's name or cos it's next door to paper shop so Jackie's or Tracy or summat like that. Summat like that, yeah. Yeah. I, I liked it at college but I'm glad I went just one day a week because It's moved now though, you know, it's not Yeah, it's in Church View int it? Yeah. Because I think you find that when you go all time, when you come to go into a salon I think you find you're slower, do you know what I mean, because you're not used to Yeah. salon routine. But in saying that, I, I wouldn't of minded if I had to go to college full-time cos I enjoyed it. Can't see her! Got a phone call this morning off, you know magic? Who? What did they say? Said they wanted a poster. I answered. She asked for Mr so I says who is it? She says something about And did you for something? Yeah, well erm, see I advertised it all round cafe as well that I'd sent for it as well. it might've been someone from cafe phoning up I says he's in the Army. She says yeah, I know, but he give his home number. I says, oh well, I say I don't know. Just see if he wanted a poster. She said, oh, he'll probably get in touch with us. I said yeah. I didn't dare say he was in cos No. it was somebody I've only got Have you? Yeah. I've got a brochure as well. It's supposed to be woman phoning from waiting list weren't they?waiting list. Have you told her? No. Oh. They're on holiday. Take what? for a holiday? Wouldn't surprise me though, really. I don't think it's Don't know. I'd like to go, I think it would, but I'd like to go to America cos that's where it ori originated. I don't class it as, as Disney World. I class No, it's not Disney World, no. Yeah but I class like Mickey Mouse That one there. Yeah. No. Did you? No, I bottled out at last minute. Me Mum and Dad split up didn't they just before I remember that. Me erm me Mum and Dad split up just before didn't they and couldn't afford it. She's down to her target weight now. She's gotta do another two weeks at er, at er at er same weight At the same weight , innit? and then she's life-long member. And then they allow her got a stone and a half over before she has to start paying again. But I don't think she ever will now. She's really good, int she? Yeah. Don't you think Sam's slim? I, I think, eh? Don't you think Sam's slim? Well Sam. You didn't when you come home last time and you were Oh yeah I think they look after them when they've lost a lot of weight, you know. Aye. Some of the look poorly , don't they? I mean, she looked after, to me they, they do. When you see them Me, me, I think me Mum And Beryl, Beryl er Yeah, she does, doesn't she? Mm. she says, did you join Sheila? I says join what? She says Weight, I says I didn't say I was. I says er I wouldn't spend money on to lose weight. I says Mm. She says what if you're desperate? I says I still wouldn't Mm. pay three pound odd a week. It, it worked out, my mum at first thought it weren't too bad cos she got in with one of these special offer things. Aye, yeah. But towards end when she only, she only had a pound to lose and she paid about six week on run to go to get weighed to tell her she was exactly same weight. And that's all she were doing going and getting weighed like. So, she said, up to Christmas she says I'm gonna give it two more week and if I ain't last it I'm jacking it in. Mm. And everyone was saying well it was a shame you've got this far. She said yeah, but it's a lot of money when you think Well I, it is. oh she's going to get weighed an that. I mean Edna joined, you know me mate Edna? Pardon? You know me mate Edna? Er I think you've seen her, gingery hair. I probably will do. Sh she said when joined she said, oh I wouldn't join, pay money. Yeah. But she joined like. It's like me Mum said. At first it were good because it were incentive for her to keep going because she'd, you know, paid so much but toward the end, she said, it were getting ridiculous. You know, for one pound she were paying like three quid a week or whatever. Yeah, I know. Plus they had these raffles where you take Aye. something. I mean I You might as well get your I lost mine when I was Mm. It's what erm It's all beer. Six pints Well, better than getting half every time, innit? Aye. I think that's what my excuse, I've got a beer belly. if I never drink nor smoke what else would I have? That's what me mum always said. It's only bloody luxury I've got in life, smoking. it's all in life. Keith said I'm gonna change me but That's what I'm gonna do. Go on a cruise liner. Mm. Aye. That's where your money is. Actually someone were telling me You don't get a lot of money. Yeah, you don't get much at all. No. Cos board and everything's free. Ah, but you don't want a lot after that, will you Well you don't because you get, if you think, gym instructor. if you think you're going on a cruise liner it's obviously gonna be, you know, fairly well off people. Mm. So, I mean, they tip you so they don't pay you as much. Not really Jamaica. I'm still coming. On your what? last week, that's all. That's right. As soon as I get out of the Army. Get married. they kick you out and buy you a caravan. Two hundred and fifty Three days. Three days. right, Archie, he's erm, on his own, own he's er, think his wife died years ago, he saved and saved and he went on a big cruise, do you know what I mean? I think he were going for a, a month, a month and a half summat like that, and he said it were out of this world. He said he felt like a king. Mm. Who's she? She's put Judith Chalmers. She's put, she's got wrinkles now hasn't she. She used to have Well, when you get old you get them. So you're gonna have to, one day, Paul, you'll look over the breakfast table and see wrinkles on me face and you'll think, Oh, did I marry that? I bet John's dad in bar now. Where's he gone? Tenerife. It'll not be that hot For a holiday? there now, will it? On his own? Yeah, fairly. Yeah, but not that hot. His mate, Tommy. Where's your lad living? He's not my lad The lad lives at How many girlfriends have you got? Just Sam. Oh, is that all? Where? Supposed to be going down on weekend of fifteenth but when she phones on Thursday I'm going to tell her to come during the week. we'll all go out. Why? Cos I don't. No. She's funny. What she look like? You've asked me if you could, if she could come I wanna say, where's she staying, Paul? She's staying in that caravan he's got in field there. Aye. She's, what she look like? Bet she's double of me. She is. But she's got ginger hair. Oh! ginger hair! It's red! No. Bad tempered. Ooh! I hate ginger hair. My first boyfriend had ginger hair. No. Well Craig were more blonde when I first Aye, Craig did used to look quite blonde, didn't he? He were, yeah. Wendy's just got Sky, hasn't she? Eh? Wendy's got Sky in today. I went round, I got the lecture. Wendy got Sky? Yeah, today. I got the lecture. Oh. Yeah. Thought I would. Who's Wendy? Wendy. Oh, right! What's she saying to you? You're stupid, you're bloody stupid! She was going it must be that bad if you want you want to run off again. I like Minnie Mouse cos I've got some shoes like her. Got me Minnie Mouse shoes on, ain't I? Thought you had to bring shoes into conversation More bother to me since he went in the Army. More worry. Miss what? seen them both today. remember him? Yeah. Well I don't know his name was That's what I remembered. Can't remember it now. Can't remember any of it. Yeah. She jumped She, and could, found she could not fly and laid there looking at the sky. Sky, I, I, I, I. That's correct. When's your nana going in shelter? Is it tomorrow you were saying? Yeah, she's going to Rossington, somewhere in Rossington. It's like, I say, it's got a, special for alzheimers. But she's got a dog and like with that being with her constantly it's, so it's been what she's always remembered, Aye. so like after a few days I can her saying, oh, I'm gonna have to go, I'm gonna have to feed dog and they're having it put down, they're having it put down. When they having it put down? All, all family, you know,before like, we felt whatever happens to her we'll have it. Now it's come down to it, they're all assholes in our family, to put it politely. this is a Well it's no swearing house. With me Nana it's like I think, I don't think it'd live without her. No, cos they fret like I think it'd, it'd fret but it wouldn't have hurt one of them to take it on. Like me Uncle Mick's not got a dog, me Nana's not got a dog, me Auntie Frances not got a dog. We've got one any way so we couldn't have it, but they're, they're gonna have it put down. Jack Russell It's only when it bites Sam's feet,innit? Yeah it always goes for me, don't it? Without fail I walk in the house and it goes for me ankles. And you're sat there and you're like kicking it away and it goes worse. And she'll say, won't she, don't don't kick me dog, even if it's going for your ankles! down the road? Yeah. Mm. I dread it when she walks in house cos I always think she's gonna start having a go at me, but she's never said owt to me yet, has she? She just lo she always looks at me and laughs. you see. How old is she? Erm, she'll about seventy-six, seventy-seven. What's that? Eighty-one, eighty two? Get you. Aye, it's dreadful. Eventually she'll forget how to feed herself, how to go toilet bedridden. she won't be herself. Mm. She said to, yeah , she said like round house. Yeah. But they don't know whether it's her or kids cos like me Uncle Mick's kids, they're dirty scruffs. Mm. Mm. You never know what they'll be doing. Well,asked them to do it, you know, Mm. even when Sandra was doing it she'd still Yeah. Well me Auntie Jean and me Mum got passed once, like they'd been going down and scrubbing it from side at bath and everything. Yeah. That's what was happening to Upstairs in pillow cases as well. Mm. And I, I think that will be kids, that. She said when you, you remember your Jean down, int she, and she says to your mum, do you have sugar? And your mum says yeah, two. She fetched the drinks and there were two tea bags in there, weren't there, instead of sugar. Aye, she would get meals-on-wheels for her dinner and then one of the lasses would leave her summat for tea, sandwich Mm. or summat, you know. Put it in the fridge and it was still there the next day, you know, Yeah. she'd forgotten it. She, she would,meals-on-wheels didn't sh , weren't she but we stopped them cos she were She were giving it to dog! And she weren't paying either, was she? Well, no, they were, me Mum an that paid any way. No, I thought she were giving them a pound and then taking change off them, she were getting change off them or summat weren't she. Oh, I I remember your Jean saying. And she was ordering stuff for Nana, you know, fruits, sweets, crisps all sorts of things, upstairs and downstairs and chocolates in, you know, she'd just go up the shops and buy them. Yeah. The bananas I mean last, last year er Michael come from and they were Well, it's funny cos like, she'd, me Mum an that's been taking her shopping down and she's been buying it herself and like me Auntie Jean, she goes down three or four times a day sometimes and then she goes down again and it's all missing! Yeah. And they say that they think she's hiding it but there's no where to be hiding it. But like I said, I think kids an that are taking it so Yeah, it's a shame when they get like that though, then to be put in a home. Well me Mum were really upset cos she said it's like losing her twice, cos I've lost her once not knowing any of us who we are, Yeah. and then when she goes. Yeah. I think me Auntie Jean's, she'll go off her rocker because she is like I say, me Auntie Jean's only one that she ever remembers cos like me Auntie Jean takes the meal, like every meal down for her and Yeah. money for light and they've been having to keep her pension and like giving her so much at a time because it's been going missing with all the money! Yeah. Just left her so much? Yeah. You know. A shame that. Mm. You know we went up new year, after new year to see her er, it were, a lovely, nice Christmas tree in the foyer. Oh it was lovely. Lovely bedrooms they were but she'd keep saying she wanted to go out like, you know. But they've asked her, haven't they? They've said wouldn't you like to be somewhere where there's people you can talk to an that and she said yeah, didn't she? Mm. But it's Yeah. like, when she gets there she's gonna be panicking about one thing and another int she, I think. Well they sort of said that what, hopefully, she'll like be there for a couple of days and she'll never think she's been anywhere else, she'll think she's been there all the time. But I don't think she will. I'll tell you But they don't wanna tell her the truth No, they're not. Shall I put that on your bit of paper? Is it tape two then? Not that one. Where you write on other side where your fingers are. Tape two, side A. So I want that one, don't I? Aye, you'll want side A then, yeah. That, they went to look at some in they went to look at some homes in Thorne, didn't they? And one of them they says, well when we get new arrivals in we sedate them! Mm. For first week or so, didn't they? They'd been and looked at a few and there, They said they were disgusting, didn't they? there, were one of them where they were walking round we with wet pants, you know,ol old people an that. Have they to pay for her? Pardon? Have they to pay? Have they to pay for her to be there? Erm, I don't think they have, have No. I think it's er Dunno. I think she's erm they like take so much out of her pension but she's not gonna need owt any way and then erm I think government or whatever put rest. Yeah, they put so much Yeah. Yeah. No, I don't, I don't think none of the family's got to er pay up. Sh they're like all clubbing together and giving her some money to go in with cos she's got to have some money to go in with. Yeah. Aye, they get so much a week. Pocket money like. Mm. Like there's nowt to buy really. This one erm it's really good cos they've like, got nice little rooms and tellies in room and like, if like, they come and they're trying to like clean up, the cleaners'll like, give them a cloth so they'll think they're helping an that. So it shouldn't be that bad. Aye she should be all right. When's your birthday, Chelle? Mine's gone. You've missed mine. Are you nineteen now? Twentieth January. Is it? Oh, thought it was the twenty-fourth. Mm. Beginning with mine, mine twentieth, it were your Michael's twenty-sixth, weren't it? It were me boyfriend's thirty-first. Got our Lindsay's Thursday Remind me to get a card on Wednesday. Then it's yours. When's yours, Paul? Thirteenth. Thirteenth? Day before I hear you're courting, Shelley, then? Yeah erm, he's coloured like, he lives in Huddersfield. Oh. Oh what did your Mum say to you tonight? Are you going with our black Mister. he says, cos me boyfriend were supposed to be coming down and I were telling our Michael he says, oh, he's black. And he rang you up, didn't he? I were on phone to her and Michael took the phone off and he went Shelley, she said what? Your boyfriend's got black on his face hasn't he? he lives in Huddersfield, though. I'll get you it, your Mum's got no money. Well they'll lift further up when you've got your What do you want? Oh no. Well measure from your pole to your skirting board. No, I want one. curtain. So what do you need for curtains? He's at work again. Higher. Higher! What do you need for curtains? Some hooks. Curtain hooks. And when she heard it yesterday, we played it back on there, she was going all shy you know? Aye She didn't like the have to put down er what relation they are to us you know oh aye , aye and their ages aye when when we did that one in our garden our Danielle she only eighteen months Mm she's chuntering on to her granddad and she's pointing to the brussel sprouts you know in the garden Yeah the, the stalks, there's only the stalk left, cos it, it was between Christmas and New Year so Yeah Arthur wasn't in the garden like mm and er she's chuntering on to on to her granddad and he pulled a stalk out like that he said brussel sprouts, she says brussel sprouts granddad Aye Oh they were worse at it like how he did it, you know Yeah when I used to go up you know for a pint of snowball he say pint of snowball , some of the, what they call 'em Mm, what's them she was on about or something? That's I said to her, I said I dunno, what are they fruit? No they're feeding, the cattle feed, stock feed Oh, the same what I says I don't know what they're on about, they're on about garlic, well I know about garlic Every morning Aye If I go to my baker I'll er, I'll fetch one back and I'll show ya, they, they used to grow a lot during war to make jam on to subsidize folk to make jam and stuff like that you know Mm, mm they're er they're not like a turnip mango, mangoes Yes, yes Oh I've heard of mangoes Yes Oh well I'd better go and get me pork pies, they'll be ready now Oh were they not made what's that flashing for?that's when I like them when they're juicy made when you going back to school? To pick young, to pick young lasses up he wouldn't go, he wouldn't go to school when er now there, there's youths that's hung round that, hung round school gates they ought to be prosecuted He did go to school Only when you made him Did he hell he didn't go voluntary He bloody did I did I used to like school Did ya? He did, he went to school all of mine go to school Did they like school though? Yeah Yeah I loved it I thought, I thought he er didn't like it I'm best out of lot,lot How Were you breast fed? Breast fed babies are the brainiest No none of them were breast fed It's a load of bunk that is it was only you I had breast fed all the I ought others had the bloody bottle there's no I ought to I ought to've been the bloody brainiest in country me He went in through the school gates when he were five Er Willy be I used to, I used to go to school gate, me mum used to hang it through in between railings Willy used to come from school and she used to come up me mum's house with a, so could have a suck of the tit he would've come from school and you'd expect him the night at me mam's house there were a, an old woman in village, not far up us and er I were getting round me mum and pulling on her skirts and and this old woman says, get him fed Frances, he wants a bit of pap, get him, get him picked up and give him a bit of pap and that'll shut him up Aye but er we used to aye it were get on this village you know You're on here with the pap you know You do realize don't ya? Ooh, my head What is it? It's fuzzy Oh me head lack of fresh air I think Did you get them brassieres for Reggie? Aye, I've not I've got them here, I left them I hope the buggers is convenient He wants some Big'uns long Long-line he's gonna be Wishy-Washy is he? Na, na, in a play Play Who is it er Reg the duke Oh aye and he wants some long-line, well I did have some, but I don't know if I've still got them I nearly said, I nearly said when you were er He wants big'uns, you know I nearly said when you wanted er, when he were on about when I were saying your lass is big enough cos she is well built int she? Aye but she hasn't, she might of he wants a long-line Well them ones in factory as like You know long-line, what you used to keep your spare tyre in Oh yeah aye Yeah I had, I used to have one I did I dunno if it's still in the drawer I dunno if I've still got it I had I, I always wore them you know Aye I went to hospital once for me, I had me veins done, the doctor came round and Yeah no, no him that use the anaesthetic The anaesthetist, aye I had it on under me nightie just, pulled the bottom of it, he said what's this? Yeah I said it's for, oh what do you think it is? We had a good laugh then Mm, used to keep your spare tyre in you see Oh I went with out with them like Yeah I did have one in the drawer though, I don't know if it's still there Oh you ought to have a big'un then keep your spare tyre in Don't wear them now Aye it's all you want, nobody else's oh she's on again paint the house she's spoiling it breaks all the conversation up, televisions, no good Be lost without mine I think I wouldn't get fed up, no see if an'all got fed up Well once through the week has he got some money? Aye I'll go if you've got some money Don't Aye, I don't know where there's nowt on no They're due on I don't know at seven, seventh of November our last one was Yes well I'll go up, go Oh the others are due now aren't they? Oh, aye Sheila Okay, say like The mess on that carpet wants cleaning Go and get some water go and get the cloth quickly never heard of er Sheila have you? go and get a cloth Go and get the cloth please I don't want to Hurry up so I can clear your gravy up, go on go on don't want to Go and get the cloth get the cloth floor cloth No Right then you're going home, come on get your cardy on one, two come on Under the sink oh the stack system what you left Oh keeps fine for you love yeah er I thought your chain was loose there the way it was hanging No it's come on wipe that Well I dunno what right is, and that's definitely right Put Luke in well Eh David's got a dog kennel ain't he? What he had his dog in Who? David what he had at top of the garden, he put his dog in there Yeah supposed to make me one eh, oh, elm, oak Oak, ash oak elm, oak, ash they're the only ones I know are free It is though innit? I think so aye Must be yes they might have it Mummy Put your cardy on then Let's see your cardy on what about your pink one? Oh aye Have you finished your pink one? then it'll have to be dripped-dried Yeah Have you finished your pink one or wha no No been on it, like it's got all any, all numbers down side what you use for which Has Nicola got one of these what you knit her one? No, I haven't knit her one, I knit you Apparently like all numbers I used to only use B three and A one Can you knit a new one? I thought that's all the programme Me? had on it, but it's got about eight on it Who says? but none of them work Aye only What colour? work but only one works now This colour That colour? Oh Eh, posh ain't ya come here love, let's, let's have a look at it? Come here Can't turn now which way you've got it on? You want to put it right on her shoulders, cos she's not got it on properly She pulls it down anyway more than that Let your mum put it on properly so it looks nice, yeah, lovely that Look nice with a polo neck or a T-shirt Does it? No I couldn't be bothered to do mine last night Then you wanna get some of that, we were on about it yesterday Aye it's Britannia Britannia and you'll get a jumper and a cardigan out of it and it's beautiful, it's only about three ninety nine in the window, the big balls Come on then it's inside You know where Jenny gets her knitting machine but it's super in, no no not them oh, aye and I they're just big balls Yeah I know what you mean now yeah They're just like er a hundred Yeah and they've got a lovely beigey mixture, like aran-type wool Mm lovely int it? Be nice I'll have a look say Expect innit Yeah expensive beautiful wool and they've got the plain type The pink's horrible isn't it though? Mind them on the Corns will be alright as well It's thin though Sheila Oh aye it wants double knitting you see well you can get double knit Not on the Corns I don't think, I've never seen it not in that Well you can double knit on your knitting machine Not on ours you can't Oh you can on mine Eh? Can you? Yeah in that pattern book, yeah No I don't think you can on mine well I've never come across Come on then Sammy Jo You ain't got the book like, have you got the book with it? Have ya? No Right, go toilet first no you can on mine like Ah I'm taking me pram to Alice's Your pram, it's no good, not taking your pram I don't think so it's no good Got a nice piece of pork in I've finished my coffee again, it must be that cup in it,w is yours still hot? No Yeah, Stuart's card did you get a card off ? No They must've forgot Yeah, why it's not a Eh? Talking to Sharon out there Oh, thought she'd gone Yeah it's about three weeks Mm when I won that pork er she gives us it Ah and she says I'll keep it till the week after to eat to buy the meat, I'm thinking meat cod No she buys the meat one week then the veg That's right then the week after I, I won the beef Aye so that you see Aye so it's Sharon's turn to buy it, can, Elliott cannot get cheap stuff from the, where Ian works? No, no That's odd isn't it cos the chicken factories do don't they? Yeah , no, cannae get owt, don't know why er Well I've got one chair, ha, stripped and washed on the line Oh, these, oh really are scruffy yeah I went in for me fags and that lass she stood, she said I'm waiting to see what you saying I says forty, I says I get forty every day and by Friday Is it her with the glasses? No Oh Friday I I never come over there did I? No, and I were filling me thing out she says oh fill that one out an'all, so got thirty pence off Oh good but she never give us another one Why didn't you ask? I know but it I mean it doesn't matter to them does it? No Oh there was a bloody mine I don't know if they ninety nine were they? I dunno, aye it was in the paper weren't it? Aye we were gonna chuck it, cut it out yesterday it was about twenty five pence or thirty pence wasn't it? Save your Cos some of them Oh aye take your coupons here I know the product aye and I keep forgetting mine on the back windowsill Yeah Oh I bent the and that with the glasses, has she packed in there's nine you know the little one with the glasses she's about fortyish Oh fortyish Well I'm not very good at the ages like I mean she could be older Molly? No No glasses only a little'un thinnish short hair? Aye Oh she's not forty, she's only a young lass, she's pregnant mind Oh no if it's the one I think oh no No? No There's one little fairish, fairish hair, short I think she's Aye, oh no I dunno she were pregnant no, I dunno This one's got glasses on mind, we always have a laugh with her, there's her and Ann on the till and er Sue Sue's gone Who's Sue? Er short hair, grey thin Might be her gr glasses? Aye Aye Aye might be her right Aye Aye she's gone she's Connie int she? Yeah Sue, er Julie one of the supervisors curly hair dark curly hair Black Aye thin? I think she was Very thin she was in the office, for, she's gone Did she come and find the price for your wool? Er went to find the price for your wool, the red jacket thing on Oh I dunno if it's er black hair? No Not that old Aye he's got black hair, she's got black hair come and wait bad yeah, his throat, aye Aye, went to get the price for your wool then Aye might of been her then, she's only a young lass Aye Aye thin, wore the red Aye probably her then, er and Chris that's three Chris Ah Sharon, I think she said Sharon, I will see another day Aye Pat What about that lass that lost all that weight? Well she was she served me the other day, Dawn Mm Tuesday must of been Tuesday if it was the other day Oh, mind some of them could be working a week's notice, but Chris didn't, he finished that week I don't think any of 'em have had ah they're not oh no, cos Val was telling us er he er, well yester was when Val served us, she says there's nine well she says for what not been there a long time Aye, she says what they're getting Sheila, she said I've just cut me hours down they, they were working thirty nine and they've cut me down to thirty two, just like part-time thing, like you know Mm so oh well, they must've worked it out and find out she's gotta be better off keeping her job mm, well Ann's still there and her other oldish woman Is Molly there then? I dunno Molly works Molly wasn't in yesterday was she? I haven't seen her I haven't seen her, have you been to Kwik Save lately? Have you seen Molly? You know Molly big fat Molly? Molly's on tills I think Have you seen, have you seen her this week? Have you been in? I think mam said she were in on Tuesday Oh Monday or Tuesday I say I've not seen her cos she's Oh, aye she used to have bank counter job though didn't she? Mm Aye she used to be at the bank Aye, but there's nine been made redundant Chris, Val says there's, there's nobody in and they have And all have er, a cut three hundred working hours Aye so they've done it with nine then eh? Yeah All the full-timers then, eh? Mm I'll turn that off now Erm let me make a few announcements erm firstly Longmans the publishers are producing a large and they hope definitive dictionary of the English language and in aid of this they have asked various universities to produce examples, recorded examples of academic monologue and we've agreed to cooperate and that is what this little piece of electronic wizardry is in aid of in case you were wondering. Erm the lectures given in the Department of Politics can of course be described in many ways and academic monologue is probably one of the most neutral erm of them. Er secondly erm there's a, a change in the programme of these lectures. Erm Dr Julia is going to be on sabbatical leave next term and would therefore like to give her lectures on Mill and utilitarianism erm this term so next week you will have Julia on Rousseau and immediately after that she'll give her lectures on utilitarianism and Mill and I will then come after that and deal with socialism and Marx and all that really sexy stuff. Erm finally erm I've come down with whatever it is that's going around and erm you'll notice that my voice is even more gravelly than normal erm I hope it holds out erm for the duration of this lecture. I have in the last couple of lectures erm outlined or tried to outline erm Locke's basic decision erm his concept of how we as individuals are related to nature, to each other and I've emphasised the crucial importance of this notion of how we are related to God. Erm if my reading of Locke erm differs from that of most of my erm fellow historians and political thought erm it differs in a matter of emphasis. Erm I think that Locke's theology erm plays a much more crucial role in his thinking than many of my colleagues think and I mention this because er you might note this as a possible bias that you might like to take account of in reading Locke. In short, as I said at the very beginning of this series of lectures, you mustn't treat what as I say as gospel erm I am perfectly capable of being a little bit eccentric, possibly even a little bit erm original erm in my interpretations. Erm and I have been plugging the line that what underpins Locke's, what underpins Locke's general political position is his theology, his basically Calvinist notion of how human individuals are related to God, they are God's servants sent into the world about his business, that's what they're here for and that's what governs all their obligations, they're rights and so on. It's an emphasis which is not endorsed by many of my colleagues and you'd better bear that in mind. What I want to talk about today is erm Locke's erm theory of the social contract and government. Now then, he argues that since in the state of nature erm the individual has the right to life, liberty and property, he or she also has a right to take such steps are necessary for the protection o o of these rights. He may defend himself against attack, for example, cos he has a right to life and he may also defend his neighbours against attack. Furthermore, if a violation of the law of nature has already taken place, he has the right to punish the offender. And this involves both the right to decide that a breach of the law of nature has taken place, a right to decide what punishment is appropriate and also a right erm to implement this judgment. In other words Locke argues on the basis of his general notion of the relationship between the individual and God and the individual and his fellow human beings, erm Locke argues that the individual in the state of nature has what one may fairly call legislative and executive authority over others. And of course every individual has that authority. Let me by the way put in a footnote here. Erm modern theorists of human rights just start from the position that human rights are of course self evidently inherent in each individual, I'm thinking for example of erm Nosette In the tradition of, of natural, in the natural law tradition which Locke erm erm shares erm there is a basic position which runs throughout them all and that includes incidentally even Hobbes to the effect that erm we don't just have rights as individuals, we have rights for a very particular reason. We have rights because we have obligations. It's our obligations that are fundamental. And it is because we have obligations that we can claim to have rights. If I signed a contract to carry out a complete refurbishment of the interior of your house I have an obligation to fulfil that contract. That means that I have a right to access to your house. You can't stand at the front door and say no you can't come in at all apart from its being completely irrational erm the point would be that, because I have an obligation to carry out this work, I have a right to the means to fulfil that obligation. Similarly for Locke we're in this world, sent by God about his business, the business is, in very general terms, to flourish and multiply this means, well that is the reason why we have certain rights, the right to life, the right to liberty, the right to property because if we didn't have these rights we couldn't fulfil that obligation. So rights and obligations here are very closely connected at least in tradi in the erm in the good old natural law of traditional thinking. That's just a footnote. Back to erm Locke's state of nature, as I mentioned erm according to Locke the individual in the state of nature erm has certain rights which involve the enforcement of the law of nature erm and this means that he has legislative and executive authority. Now in the state of nature this has, according to Locke, certain inconveniences, first of all in the state of nature this means that individuals will often be judges in their own case and that is not good jurisprudence. Erm it means that very often individuals will have an obligation to enforce the law of nature but will not actually command sufficient force to en erm erm sufficient force to execute their judgments and so on and so on and so on. What is required, Locke argues, is that the law of nature be embodied in a set of known and established laws that there be an ind in short that it's not just up to the individual to state what the law of nature is in any particular case, you know, you've got a set of known and established laws, you know, which do that. It requires that there be an independent and impartial judge to adjudicate disputes, I E a judge who's not actually a party to the dispute. It requires also that there be an armed force sufficient to enforce the law on recalcitrant individuals. Well these requirements are, Locke argues, met by the social contract, the social contract in which individuals agree and consent with one another, and I quote him to unite into a community for their comfortable, safe and peaceable living one amongst another quote. By thus consenting they form one body politic and it is implied in the contract that the majority have the right to conclude for the rest and let me quote for when any number of men have by the consent of every individual made a community they have thereby made that community one body with a power to act as one body which is only by the will and determination of the majority it being necessary to that which is one body to move one way a single body can't move in two opposite directions simultaneously. It is necessary the body should move that way whither the greater force carries it which is the consent of the majority or else it is impossible it should act or continue one body, one community which the consent of every individual that united into it agreed that it should and so everyone is bound by that consent to be concluded by the majority . There are lots of things in this erm erm do notice that Locke is emphasising that by the social contract individuals establish a unitary body, a community and furthermore a community which has the capacity to act. There are certain problems with this conception, one of which at least I shall allude to erm towards the end of this lecture. Erm there is a further implication in this conception, and again I quote whosoever therefore out of a state of nature unite into a community must be understood to give up all the power necessary to the ends for which they unite into a society to the majority of the community unless they expressly agreed in any number greater than the majority and this is done where are we by barely agreeing to unite into one political society which is all the compact that is or needs to be between the individuals that enter into or make up a commonwealth . The power the power Locke has in mind is the legislative and executive power which the individuals possess as of right in the state of nature. These are in erm in a social contract ceded to the body politic as a whole. Now of course it is not normally practical for the community, the body politic, to exercise these rights itself so it entrusts them to a man or body of men whom it commissions to exercise them on its behalf. In short the community once formed creates a government. There are two acts here the creation of a community, a body politic, by the social contract and then that community establishes a government as a separate act and I shall emphasise the significance of that shortly. First of all, however, we notice that Locke envisages the establishment of a government as the establishment of a trust and he means this in a fairly strict legal sense. The government is a trustee and the body politic is both the trustor and the beneficiary of the trust. The government is entrusted with the task of protecting the lives, liberties and properties of the individual members of the body politic and there is a reading of Locke which I questioned last Tuesday which says that that is all a government can do. In short there is a reading of Locke that ascribes to Locke a sort of minimum government theory the night watchman theory of government, that all the government can do is protect the lives, liberties and properties erm of the members of the body politic. We also note that erm this theory of the social contract is a theory about the origins of legitimate civil societies. It is a theory about how a legitimate civil order can come to be established. It is not the case that whenever we become a member of a civil society, a body politic, that we are so to speak signing the social contract erm think of it erm a little bit like erm a social club erm East Biddock Old Comrades Club was actually established in the way Locke describes, you know, a group of citizens of East Biddock came together and decided to establish a social club subsequently of course all sorts of people are admitted to membership of East Biddock Old Comrades Club but that as a process which, although very similar to the original contract of establishment, isn't actually erm the same, you know, they're not actually re-establishing the civil society, they're joining one that already exists. I would suggest to you, in short, that erm just as Locke's labour theory of property is a theory is not a comprehensive theory about what constitutes a legitimate claim to own something but is really a theory about how private property comes to be legitimately created erm so his theory of social contract is not a theory about how we acquire political obligations, it's a theory about how legitimate civil societies come to be established. It's a theory about origins. Right let me now touch erm on three topics and the first one is erm the vexed question of consent in Locke. You will recall that erm according to Filmer erm individuals do not consent to join a civil society they are simply born into it. A civil society is a natural organism like the family and just as we're born into a family, so we're born into a civil society. You have all sorts of obligations, obligations of obedience erm erm to the authorities that be for example, simply by the fact that you popped out of your mother's womb in that particular territory and under that particular jurisdiction. No consent is involved at all. Locke of course wants to argue a strong case to the contrary, he wants to argue that membership of a civil society is voluntary. He wants to argue that we do join civil societies and that we can under certain circumstances erm decide to quit them and, overall of course against Filmer he wants to argue that in this respect a civil society is radically different from the family. Again think of the example of erm erm a social club you know, relationships between members, although they may be close and intimate and friendly and all that, are not the same as a relationship between members of a family. You know, we've got a completely different animal, that's what Locke wants to argue. Very briefly, on Locke's account, members of a civil society are obliged to obey the rules of that society simply because they have agreed to do so. They have given an undertaking, they have promised, they have consented they have said that they would erm erm undertake certain obligations and a gentleman's word is his bond isn't it? They've promised. However, and there is some discussion amongst interpreters of Locke about this, what counts as consent? Locke speaks of express consent but also of tacit consent and indeed in one place tacit consent is deemed to have been given merely by being on the territory of the civil society in question. The idea seems to be that you have tacitly accepted the protection of the laws and thereby you have tacitly undertaken to obey them. A French tourist visiting England Locke's case seems to be that the moment he steps on the territory of England he has tacitly agreed erm to obey the laws and in return erm of course he receives the protection of those laws. That just by coming to England and driving along the road from Dover to, to London or wherever he has given his tacit consent. Locke does suggest, indeed, erm and erm the example that, the rather silly example that I just gave is meant to bring this out, erm that of course those who have only given tacit consent are not full members of that civil society. Okay our French tourist is entitled to the protection of the laws but he's not for example entitled to vote and he's not entitled to hold erm public office. Sure he has rights and there is a sense in which he is a member of that civil society while he's here but he doesn't have full political rights, he's not a full member. And let me quote Locke er here we are are we he says but submitting to the laws of any country, living quietly and enjoying privileges and protection under them, makes not a man a member of that society then he goes on a little bit further down nothing can make any man so but is actually entering into it by positive engagement and express promise and compact . Now many commentators have found it not entirely clear what Locke has in mind and I'm puzzled by erm the confusion into which they seem to have fallen. Erm they seem to have some trouble erm grasping erm under what circumstances, according to Locke, you can be deemed to have been given, to have given express consent. And some commentators suggest that, and I'm thinking here particularly of MacPhearson in his book erm erm erm Possessive Individualism, The Theory of Possessive Individualism erm they suggest that if you, according to Locke, if you purchase or inherit property in the territory of a particular civil society that counts as express consent. Now what MacPhearson wants to say is that erm Locke sort of covertly wants to introduce a property qualification for full political rights back to the question who are the people? Erm everyone or only those who meet a certain property qualification? And MacPhearson wants to argue that Locke is fairly clearly suggesting that there is a property qualification for membership of the people, the people being the sovereign. I find the textual basis for this interpretation very flimsy, in fact there is clear erm erm erm textual evidence for precisely the opposite and let me cite erm one instance Locke is here talking about tacit consent and the purchase of property and erm he says whenever the owner who has given nothing but such a tacit consent to the government will by donation, sale or otherwise quit the said possession, he is at liberty to go and incorporate himself into any other commonwealth or to agree with others to begin a new one in any part of the world they can find free and unpossessed whereas he that has once by actual agreement in any expressed declaration given his consent to be of any commonwealth is perpetually and indispensably obliged to be and remain unalterably a subject to it and can never be again in the liberty of the state of nature . In short Locke is plainly saying, it seems to me, that anyone who say a French man buys a holiday home in England, reversing the general trend nowadays, erm Locke is saying he's still a French man. Okay all he's done is given tacit consent, he owns property in England, fine, but that still counts only as tacit consent. He can sell it and go back to France or might emigrate to America and join a different civil society. But anyone who has given express consent can't do that. So it, I think it is clear that Locke is not saying erm that the purchase of property in the territory of the civil society counts as giving express consent. Well what does Locke mean by express consent? Well Locke's contemporaries would know exactly what he meant in the late seventeenth century. This was the age of political oath taking and I think it highly likely that Locke was thinking of, for example, the Test Act of sixteen seventy three. Basically the burden of the Test Act was that all office holders erm all holders of public office had to take an oath of allegiance and had to erm take the sacraments in the Church of England otherwise they couldn't hold public office. And that could fairly be called an act of express consent. I think it is fairly obvious that erm the Test Act here erm was erm intended to exclude Catholics from holding public office. Erm Catholics would be highly unlikely to consent to taking the sacraments of the Protestant church. But erm that is the sort of thing that Locke had in mind. And I think I'm right in saying that to this very day, all American citizens officially take an oath of allegiance. Usually in their schools as teenagers, but they actually formally join the United States of America. That's express consent. And that I think is what Locke had in mind to be a full member of a civil society erm you've got to erm give your express consent for example in the form of an oath of allegiance. That makes you a full member, it gives you the right to vote, it gives you the right to stand for public office, it gives you the right even to hold public office. Nowadays many of us find that a bit strange, after all I don't think any of us or very few of us here in this room have actually given our express consent to be British subjects. But in Locke's day it was normal and Locke's contemporaries I think would have had no problem understanding this what he meant. A second general erm point that I want to draw attention to erm it goes back again to erm Filmer Filmer you'll recall had ruled out any meaningful distinction between the private and the public erm the domestic and the political. The state is nothing but a family and we're related to his majesty Charles the First just as we are related to our dads as simple as that, you know, the private and the public are identical political relationships are fundamentally family relationships. I might add that Filmer's notion of dominion as originally granted to Adam included both ownership of property and authority over men and here Filmer was trading on erm erm the feudal tradition of erm property erm erm erm dominion erm entails that if you have property rights in a certain tract of territory you also have political authority over the people inhabiting that or that territory you know, think of a straightforward standard lord of the manor and his service you know, he has property rights in the territory, he also has authority over erm the individuals who live off that territory. Erm and his purpose in emphasising this very traditional notion of dominion erm was of course, well was amongst other things, erm to make the point that individuals have no right of property which they can maintain against a government. In short the king can tax his subjects, can appropriate their property erm without their consent. Erm that was at least one of the major political points that underlie this notion of dominion. Erm in short Adam had been given erm lordship over the earth and all its creatures and with that he'd been given lordship over all human beings and the kings of this earth have inherited that lordship, that dominion. Well Locke, you'll recall, erm well let me, let me first point out the further erm implication of this erm which is that erm individuals have no rights of property except those rights which are granted by grace by the authorities that be, by the king. Mm. Now Locke you'll recall had articulated a concept of private property as a natural right, inherent in individuals independently of membership in a civil society and in doing that he was of course trying to mount a case against erm Filmer's position. Civil society on Locke's account is established to protect the property rights of individuals but apart from this there was on Locke's account no connection between political rule and the ownership of property. Okay the king and parliament has very extensive authority over us but that does not include erm any rights of ownership in our property as individuals. That was what Locke was trying to argue. For instance, erm erm a good illustration of this is Locke's erm erm argument on the right of inheritance and erm in this case I am quoting from the first treatise of government the right a son has to be maintained, has to be maintained and provided with the necessary the necessities and conveniences of life out of his father's stock gives him a right to succeed to his father's property for his own good but this can give him no right to succeed also to the rule which his father had over other men. All that a child has a right to claim from his father is nourishment and education and the things nature furnishes for the support of life but he has no right to demand rule or dominion from him . In short Locke wants to drive a wedge between our rights as private individuals and our rights as members of a civil society. Erm as a private individual I have a right to inherit my father's house when he dies. However, as an mere individual I do not also have a right to inherit his seat in parliament. There is a clear distinction here between the private and domestic on the one hand and the public and the political on the other. And I think you'll find that, in reading Locke, that that is erm one of the major themes of his argument. Finally a word about the right of resistance. And here I think Locke's distinction between civil society on the one hand and the state on the other is crucial and I mentioned this earlier and I'm now coming back to it. Looking at Filmer again, for Filmer civil society was a natural organism of which the state was an integral part just as a father is an integral part of a family. Not so for Locke, you will recall that so f the way Locke sets it up is a legitimate civil society is first established by a social contract and that creates a community, a body politic, which has a capacity to act, and I'll put a little question mark over that shortly, erm and that community then as a separate act sets up a government which, because it has set it up as a trust, erm it can change or dismiss pretty well at will. And the effect for Locke is this, and again I, I quote the legislative being only a fiduciary power , that is to say a power based on trust a fiduciary power to act for certain ends, there remains still in the people a supreme power to remove or alter the legislative when they find the legislative act contrary to the trust imposed in them and thus the community perpetually retains a supreme power of saving themselves from the attempts and designs of every body even if their legislators whenever they shall be so foolish or so wicked as to lay and carry on designs against the liberties and properties of the subject . There's a bit of a puzzle here erm how can a community act as a single body independently of its governmental institutions? You'll recall that Hobbes had argued that erm what creates a civil society what creates a community is the establishment of a government. The unity of a civil society, what makes us all one people, is the fact that we're subject to a single government according to Hobbes. I find that Locke doesn't really address this point. Erm okay as British we all form a single civil society, now Locke wants to say that we can act, for example, erm we can change the form of our government and we can do this independently of the government itself. And I think one must ask the simple question, what sort of mechanism does Locke have in mind? And I think it is not at all clear what sort of mechanism he has in mind. It would be much simpler if he were simply talking about the relationship between the legislative and the executive cos here he could say right, if the executive gets out of hand and starts acting arbitrarily and tyrannically, then the legislative acting on behalf of the people as a whole can take action as indeed parliament did during the civil wars. But he, he is envisaging, in the passage that I, that I quoted, the community as a whole actually taking action against a rogue legislative body. You know, suppose parliament starts breaking the rules and acting arbitrarily and I say the mechanism is not clear. And that is at least one of the problems with Locke's theory of the right of resistance to arbitrary government. I'm sorry to leave Locke by giving you erm a problem but erm Locke is full of problems. Erm next week erm Julia will start talking about the life and times of Rousseau. It will have nothing to do with the lecture but simply to impress those that my vocabulary is very wide. Okay this er this lecture is called multiple government and the federal system and it flows directly from the last lecture when I started talking about the er the constitution and about the principles and the values that erm form the American system. And if you cast your minds way back to Tuesday you will remember that what I said was that the Americans were trying to create a system of limited government er and yet one which er protected the liberties of individuals not all individuals, not black individuals especially but of individuals, this was the rhetoric of the time and the main device that they invented to do this was something called the separation of powers and they argued that, where political power is concentrated, the potential for abuse is greater so that where executive and legislative powers are held in the same hands, as they are in our system of government, the, there is more prospect of government encroaching upon the rights of individuals. Okay? Now I also said that the states which make up the United States were, for a brief period, independent entities themselves in the gap between the ending of revolutionary war and the framing of the constitution and so when their representatives assembled in Philadelphia in the summer of seventeen eighty seven, they were mindful of their independence and they were jealous of that independence, they wished to protect it against encroachment, they didn't wish to exchange one form of dominance for another. So they, they welcomed the idea of a separation of powers but they also insisted on another principle, probably the most important principle of American government, and that is the principle of federalism. Why is it the most important principle? Well if you think about it it's the only principle that America has ever gone to war over. Er the American civil war was fought essentially over federalism er involving many millions of men and er in which over half a million men died. Erm so federalism is a fairly important principle in American government and that principle, essentially, is, and most of you I hope will have done the first year course politics and policy making where I talked about federalism in general terms that federalism is based upon the notions that in the same territory you can have more than one government and that those governments er are of equal status. Erm in the American system of government the state governments draw their authority from the same source as the federal government, that is the constitution of the United States. State governments are not subject to the whim or control of the federal government. State governors are not to be directed by presidents. Congress is not empowered to make laws for the states or to substitute them for the laws of individual states and so on. And this is built into the heart of the system so you have a new nation being formed, a new political system being invented and it's invented on the basis of two principles separation of powers and federalism. And federalism er remains a very important feature er of American politics. Now the political culture of the time was such that the political system which actually emerged is rather different from that which some of the people who went to Philadelphia thought would emerge and that really reflects a number of changes, one that America has grown from four million to two hundred and fifty million, two, from being isolated, remote and scattered the population has consolidated and grown, America has become a vast industrial power as opposed to a, an agricultural nation and all these have had their impact upon the importance and scope of government. Erm in the er late eighteenth century the, the, the consensus was that you needed government for some spec specific purposes. You needed government for defence to protect you against external enemies and to engage in foreign relations and diplomacy, and you needed government internally to regulate conflicts between states er and to ensure a, a sound economic platform so that you needed er a single authoritative source of currency for example er and a single source of er er tariffs and trade controls. But over and above that, most Americans in the late eighteenth century believed that, in so far as government had any impact on their lives, it would be local government, it would be the government of their state and not the remote government in Washington which most people in the eighteenth century had never visited or knew anything about erm or li knew little of what it did. Now over time the relationship between the states and the federal government has been put to the test. It's been put to the test in the courts er and ultimately it was put to te put to the test er on the battlefields in the civil war. And I think it's worth just rehearsing very briefly that history to get an understanding of contemporary federalism. If you can imagine at the convention the bias was very much towards preserving states' independence. If you want this constitution ratified I can't go back to my people and say you're giving up all your independence, there's a new national government which is gonna decide everything. That clearly would not sell back home. Er and so the constitution of the United States contained within it certain ambiguities, a certain vagueness of er statement and the actual working of that in practice er was left to the politicians and the judges of, of later times. But quite early in the history of the United States some very crucial decisions were made, very crucial decisions. And the first was made in a decision of the Supreme Court in the case of McCullock versus Maryland in eighteen nineteen just over thirty years after the constitution was drafted and in that the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court declared that where the er national government, the federal government, and the state governments appeared to have erm concurrent jurisdiction, that is they both have some say over an area, and there's a clash between the state government and the national government, that national government's will prevails. So where there is concurrent jurisdiction, simultaneous jurisdiction, see I'm throwing these words in here, concurrent, simultaneous, you know, erm the national government er er prevails. The actual case erm was erm where the federal government established a national bank which had an office in, in Maryland and Mr McCullock was the cashier of the, of the national bank er and the State of Maryland er thought that a national bank was an unfair form of competition with the local state banks in Maryland and imposed a tax on er on the national bank. Now when it came down to it the national government essen sorry the Supreme Court essentially said if the national government wishes to create a national bank in pursuance of legitimate aims of the constitution then it should have the discretion to do so and it shouldn't be interfered with by a state government. So where there was a potential for conflict between national and state, the court sided with the national. Just five years later in eighteen twenty four er in a case called Gibbons versus Ogden I forget precisely who Gibbons and Ogden where, erm but this was a case er of a dispute between the states of er New York and New Jersey over navigation rights on the Hudson River er and who had the right to regulate trade on the Hudson River. Now the Supreme Court declared that decision that the constitution gives the power to regulate interstate commerce to the national government, I E it wasn't a matter for New York, it wasn't a question of whether New York or New Jersey should control it, it was a matter for the federal government not for either of the states. So quite early on some very crucial decisions were made which tilted the balance very much towards the national government. So it's wrong to see federalism in a sense as an equal partnership between the states and the, and the central government it is biased towards central government, always has been so and has in become increasingly biased towards it i in modern times. Now you know the decisive event of American history, the most important single event in American history was of course the American civil war. The American civil war decided something fundamental it didn't decide, as some people argue, that blacks were equal to whites this was w one of the least of Abraham Lincoln's concerns Abraham Lincoln supported in the eighteen fifties, I throw this in for people who Americ and there's usually an American in the audience who's brought up to believe that Abraham Lincoln walks on the water, you know erm he actually suffered from syphilis by that's by the way it's it's no wonder he looks so depressed most of the time but the er Abraham Lincoln actually supported a constitutional amendment which would guarantee the right of people to own slaves so the idea of Lincoln the great emancipator and friend of black people, it needs to be corrected slightly. Erm in the, in the civil war issue what was at stake here er was er the nature of the republic, the nature of the union. Erm these states had come together voluntarily in seventeen eighty seven er to secure common aims protection against foreigners, Indians er economic aims, and these aims bound them together, common purposes and so on, but was the United States a permanent union? Or was it something like, you know, the Conservative Party? Something one could join and leave as one felt like it. And the er State of South Carolina tested that principle. South Carolina threatened to leave the United States in the, in the eighteen thirties and ultimately er in, in the eighteen sixties it did so and er it was followed by a number of other states, the so called confederate states. And the question that was put then was the question that Lincoln had no doubt about the answer to which was this is a, is this a permanent union or not? Yes it is. You know, this is indissoluble, it is forever, to eternity er and there is no scope, no opportunity, no precedent, no procedure for a state to leave once it's joined. I used to argue in the nineteen sixties that Britain should become the fifty first state but I'm not so sure about that. In any event the civil war was the ultimate sort of turning point which defined that the national government er had a responsibility for ensuring the permanence of the union and it took that responsibility so seriously it was prepared to engage in what was then the bloodiest war in human history. And that defined the permanent character of the United States and then what happened subsequently er was of course that the, in the twentieth century, er America evolved into an industrial power erm and certain changes were made to the American constitution which had a profound impact. The American constitution cannot be changed except through a very cumbersome and difficult constitutional procedure which requires the vote of two thirds of the members of both houses of congress and a resolution from three quarters of the leg state legislatures, so it's not a simple majority, you can't just simply say oh let's add something to the constitution, very difficult indeed erm er and there hasn't been a significant recent amendment to the constitution. Er in the nineteen seventies and eighties there was a long running campaign to get an equal rights amendment er which was sponsored largely by er women's groups and er and er gay and lesbian groups er and they got almost there, they got two, I think two states short of getting a constitutional amendment and then something called Ronald Reagan happened and it all sort of fell apart. Erm so the, the procedure then was er in the early part of this century, most important er amendment, whose number I've forgotten, but in about nineteen twelve I think it was er a, an amendment was passed which added to the powers of the federal government the right to levy an income tax er and er that transformed the relationship between the federal government and the states because the erm potential revenues to be derived from income tax are huge. And in the nineteen thirties America went into the worst economic depression it's ever seen and the state governments were literally overwhelmed by the economic hardship and the economic problems and the federal government came galloping to the rescue. Well cantered slowly to the rescue. Erm well cheered them up. Erm so the federal system has a constitutional basis but it also has a financial basis er and the two are er closely linked. So we have increasing dominance of a national government and we have increasing importance of er of er federal monies and, and, and er taxation powers. now before I say something about er about er contemporary federalism, let me just er put the other side of the case for a moment. Erm you may, you may start to believe from what I've been saying that federalism is a kind of sham, you know that it's a that really states have lost significance viz a viz the federal government, federal government is now more or less a, a unitary state and runs everything, well that's not true at all. Let me just run through a few features of American political life which make it rather different to er to our own er sceptred isle. Every state of America, in America, determines its own constitution and its own political structures. And each state is entirely free to devise whatever political structures it feels like devising. There is a er an almost consensus across the states as to what that should be erm but there are variations so there could be wild variations so that there, there is a, a scope er to determine that er each state is free to set up whatever agencies or departments, parts of the bureaucracy it feels like setting up, it's not subject to any federal control or national standards. It's entirely at the discretion of each state how they organize their own governmental affairs. Each state in the United States has a different criminal and civil code. And any of you who have been to the United States may have experienced this. If you drive from er I remember being stopped by one of those men in the dark glasses erm if you drive from Maine into New Hampshire the speed limit in Maine is sixty five and the speed limit in New Hampshire is fifty five and you just cross a si er y there's a signpost which says welcome to Maine or New Hampshire, whichever way you're going, and the second you cross that line, theoretically, you have adjust to the different speed limit. So if you were going at sixty four, you know, about a millimetre before the sign you have to be going at fifty five a millimetre after the sign er and you can be pulled up by a State Trooper as I was pulled up, quite unjustly I felt. I didn't know there was a different speed limit between, between the two states. Er an so there can be profound differences in er if you think of a subject I touched upon last time, a very er contentious issue in American politics, the abortion issue, erm before the Supreme Court dealt with the matter in the nineteen seventies, every state in America had a different law on abortion. So you could literally have a situation in which you could live say er er a woman could er live er you know a mile from the state line and in one state er abortion er could be something which ended up with a doctor in prison for life, in another state, across the state line, it could be something which was er you know er provided free of charge by the state public health authorities. So wide fluctuations, entirely different er codes. This causes all sorts of complications, I mean if you erm if you qualify as a doctor in Texas er and you go to Massachusetts you have to go through another set of examinations before they allow you to practice medicine in Massachusetts because they don't accept automatically Texas qualifications, they re regard the ri they retain the right to determine their own standards of procedures in these sorts of areas so their own criminal and civil codes as well as their own political structures so these are major matters. Each state er engages to differing degrees in economic er and er economic policy making and economic regulation. Different states have different practices on, on er er minimum wages, on er banking structures, on regulation of utilities, on er housing policies, on transportation policies, all of these vary from state to state. The federal government tries to get involved, it tries to see some consistency but it can't actually impose that, the states still retain er the right to do things their way and they do. And it's also true in erm in social policy, in health care and so on. You will find er different states operating different polic one of the, one of the most interesting transformations of America in the post second world war years er was the migration of many millions of er black people from the southern states to the northern states. Erm and there were two very profound reasons for that, one was the decline in employment in southern agriculture, the increasing mechanization of agriculture displacing er millions of er agricultural workers er and the second and more important factor was that the southern states provide almost nothing in the way of social provision and certainly nothing for black people er whereas the northern states were much more generous. So if you think about the massive exodus from the south in the nineteen sixties and seventies erm I can't remember the precise figures but in the, at that time er sort of the equivalent of current social security cheque er in er if in, if in New York it was about five hundred dollars a month in Mississippi it was fifty dollars a month. So if you were unemployed in Mississippi and you were black, you had trouble getting the fifty dollars to start with but that was all you'd get, but if you went to New York you get five hundred dollars, so what would you do? You know, so a kind of enforced migration because of different social policies pursued by, by different states. And then the ultimate differences between the states are that they have control over their spending. Erm they have control both of income generation and expenditure. They choose to tax as much as they want to and they choose to spend as much as they want to and no one can tell them otherwise, there is no central control over that. So if you take er another example erm most American states, the majority, have er a sales tax of some sort, equivalent to VAT as we would call it, er most of them have a property tax, equivalent to rates or council tax or whatever you want to call it now, er and the majority have an income tax as well, a state income tax. So they have a wide tax base and they can generate large sums of money if they, if they choose to do so and in different states there's a different culture, a different attitude towards public spending and taxation and so on. If you go to New Hampshire, I mu I must make a study of New Hampshire some time, if you go to New Hampshire, which is a delightful place, if you go to New Hampshire, New Hampshire appears to have no taxation at all as far as I can ascertain and the most favourite er car bumper sticker in New Hampshire is taxation is theft. You know they're, they're opposed to it in principle erm so they don't have an income tax, they don't have a sales tax either er I'm not quite sure how they finance public services in New Hampshire, it's a mystery to me. Erm so there is this wide, you know, a variation. But if you just take those points er an and, and think them through in your own mind about how this system of government differs say from the British system of government and the position of local government in the British system, you can see that, well we don't really have local government do we? You know we don't have anything which matches. So while you can talk about the expansion of federal powers and the dominance of the national government in certain areas, it is but nothing compared to the dominance of central government in Britain over, over local government. If you think about the taxation issue, you know, the government in Westminster exercises very stringent controls over what local governments can spend, how much they can borrow, what they spend it on erm if they don't like it they apply financial sanctions to, to local governments and if they really get up their nose they abolish the local government altogether. Erm you know there is no doubt in our system of government that the power is highly centralized and that local government is seen as a, a possible convenience well a public convenience probably erm something something we something to be dropped on from a great height as frequently as possible er particularly if it's the G L C. In the United States, however much the federal government is irritated by the state government, it cannot attack its constitutional powers nor can it undermine its financial base so that's a different relationship, it's a relationship based, not on dominance, but on partnership and there has to be an understanding, a trade off between federal and er a and state government. Now there's something else that's important here and it's something, it's an aspect of erm of federalism that people very often er fail to grasp erm we live in a, a small and densely populated island er and we have a political structure and a party system which is highly centralized and which places er great emphasis on the question of party discipline and loyalty and er these centralized party structures control er the conduct of political business in the, in the parliament and, and in cabinet and there is essentially no political life outside of that. It's, you know, it's like what's his Captain Oates was it, going out into the tent in the Antarctic or something, you know it's sort of I may be gone for a while, you know, in the in the, into the wilderness and never to return so that in, in the British structure er politicians are, their loyalty is central rather than local because their political futures are determined centrally rather than locally. In the United States the, one of the impacts of federalism and the size of the United States and its diversity, is that politicians in America are all local. Everything is local in America. Now if you think about conflict between the centre and the states you then have to ask the question well what is the centre? Well the centre is made up largely of the president er and the congress but the congress is made up of politicians elected from the states local, local politicians locally accountable. There is no central governmental structures and disciplines, there's no party control er no party, no equivalent of the, of the whips office er in England. The politicians go to Washington as representatives of their states. So to set up a conflict in your mind between the states and the federal government mistakes the nature of that relationship. The politicians in Washington are there to fight for their state and the conflicts in Washington are not conflicts between, so much between the states and the federal government, as conflicts between the states for different advantages. You know if er you know if federal government says well we think it'd be a good idea to set up a erm you know a national space agency er NASA and all these other wonderful things, you know, and all the people in congress say great idea, great idea er we'll have to have a launching site, we'll have to have a launching site in Florida er cos it'd be good to get one next to the water otherwise the rockets might come down and hit people and that would be unfortunate so we'll agree there has to be a seaboard state but Flo well we'll choose Florida cos the weather's nice and you can play tennis all the year round so it's a good idea and then we have to have mission control, right? You know where NASA's mission control is? Houston Texas so you've got the rockets going off in Florida being controlled by people in Texas, why? Because the chairman of the committee in the senate that decided this came from Texas and this provides lots of jobs in Houston so he thought it was a jolly good idea. So he was fighting for his state against Florida and against other states who were trying to get these public projects. So it's, it's wrong to see it as a centre local conflict as much as a conflict between the states about public goods, public projects and er and various kinds of freebies. Okay now taking that point then let's look at the, the nature of er federalism financially. As I said in the nineteenth century government did very little. It spent er very little and the federal government's er expenditures really didn't amount to, to very much at all. But in the twentieth century, and particular from the time of the depression, federal spending has increased enormously. Let me just,le I'm not really a, I'm not really a very numerate political scientist but let me just run some numbers by you to give you an idea of the escalation of the change. Erm in nineteen fifteen, that's before the er first world war, the federal government gave to the individual states a grand, in aid and grants and support, a grand total of six million dollars. There has been quite a bit of inflation since then but even then six million dollars was not a lot. Erm in nineteen thirty seven, that is er after the first New Deal and the second er Roosevelt administration, the federal government gave to the states three hundred million dollars so you can see in percentage terms the enormous er an enormous increase, enormous trans transformation. By nineteen fifty federal aid to the states had reached two billion dollars. So we've gone from six million in nineteen fifteen to three hundred million in nineteen thirty seven to two billion in nineteen fifty. In nineteen sixty five the total reached eleven billion. But since then the world has gone completely mad and in nineteen ninety, which was the last er time I checked this number, in nineteen ninety federal aid to the states now reaches one hundred billion dollars. So from six million in nineteen fifteen we've gone to one hundred billion, one hundred thousand million dollars. So the role of the federal government in financing the states has increased immensely and you might think that carries with it certain political implications and it does, but it's important to understand how small this is compared to the total picture. Let's again look at the, look at the contrast. In the British system of local government finance, with the wonderful inimitable reforms of the present government, er we have gone from a situation in which er the central government financed about, between forty five and fifty percent of local expenditure to a situation where the central government finances about eighty five percent, I think between eighty five and ninety percent of local spending. So if you complain about your council tax, don't, students are exempt anyway so that's alright, if you complain about your council tax don't because it only pays for a very small fraction of what local authorities spend. So in financial terms the local authorities are entirely virtually in the pocket, literally in the pocket of central government. Now in America, through the nineteen seventies and eighties there's been increasing concern, an increasing concern that the states were becoming more and more dependent on the federal government and these figures suggest that there was good reasons, this was one of Ronald Reagan's campaign themes, this was a g a growing concern, he said the federal system has been shattered, it's, it's changed its character, the states are now dependent on the federal government and this is dreadful and we must, we must change this. And because he had a very happy turn of phrase, Ron, he said that the states had become federal aid junkies. You know Nancy was saying say no, you know, but they were, the states had become fixed dependent, chemically and financially dependent er on the federal government and that must change says Ron. And he tried to change it. He tried to cut the money that states received er to a marginal degree. But in the total picture if you take what a, any, an average American state spends and you ask the question what proportion of that money comes from the federal government, the answer is wait for it, the answer is about twenty percent. It reached an all time high of twenty five percent in about nineteen seventy five and it's gone down since. Or put the other way round every American state raises eighty percent of the money it spends within the state whereas a British local authority is raising ten percent or fifteen percent. So although there has been an enormous expansion of federal aid, there's also been a vast expansion of state spending and state tax raising. Now one of the things that Ronnie Reagan was disappointed to find was that in order really to address his budget deficit, he cut federal aid to the states but he did it er dressed it up in an ideological argument which said you know that the government is too big, government is too intrusive, government should get off the backs of the people, you know, er we shouldn't go to government to solve our problems, government is the problem, that's one of the, one of Ronnie's other memorable phrases. Erm indeed I saw him, I saw Ronnie once in a hotel in er in Washington, this was the time it wasn't actually the time he was shot cos I got away that time but the he, he erm he started his speech by saying er you know what are the, what are the ten most frightening words in the, in, in the American language an and he said, the answer to his own question was I'm from the federal government, I'm here to help. You know er and that plays very well with conservative business men if you, if you say that often enough. But what happened when Reagan actually cut the grants to the states was that the states increased their own spending. They actually taxed their own populations more to keep public services at, at the level they were before. So it wasn't the fact that he'd cut back on government it's just that the government came, the spending came at a different er point in the, in the political structure. So erm what I'm trying to say here then is that the federal government is important, the federal government tries wherever possible to guide states into, into good practice and it offers rewards to states to comply with, with federal er guidelines so that, you know, if you want federal aid for er a particular project you have to, if you accept federal money, you have to ensure that you meet certain standards or certain conditions, but a very convenient way of enforcing civil rights er policies. So obviously if er if Mississippi wants some federal money for a project they're not gonna get it unless there are civil rights provisions built into the, into the project that is, you know, you can't just give dole out to white people and refuse it to black people erm that there has to be equal opportunities and so on . But it's interesting in American politics that there's great lip service paid to er the rights of states but really there's no ideological argument that overlays that. Erm in the days before the civil war the southern racists were very concerned to enforce federal laws in the north that the north didn't like like the fugitive slave law. You, have you all read Uncle Tom's Cabin? Do they still read that at school, Uncle Tom's Cabin? No? Sad tale of the runaway slave and so on, separated from his family and his children and he runs away and they er as in many countries erm there is a very high incidence of er of death through death driving erm amongst young people and in America each state has a different er age in which you're allowed to consume alcohol. So in some states it's sixteen, in some states it's eighteen, in some states twenty one er and Reagan thought it would be quite a good idea if they had uniformity across America er in which, you know, that they would raise the drinking age to twenty one er and this would then er reduce the incidence of teenage drunk driving and if you've ever been in an American bar you will know you're very often funnily enough they don't ask me so much these days but you're very often asked to prove your age, you know, er and you have to produce your driver's licence and all the rest of it erm and so he increasing pure, unadulterated, you know erm if you want this stuff then you have to raise your age of drinking I mean just er you know a, a piece of leverage or leverage as Americans say, to, to get the states to comply. This is the president who has this wonderful rhetoric about states and federalism and, you know, the rights of states, but he was, he himself was not afraid to use the power of the federal government to try and lever the states into line and it worked, you know, we're talking serious money here. Erm so what I'm saying is that there is a partnership between the states and the federal government, there is no single fixed correct relationship between the central government and the state government, it changes from time to time er more and more of the cards are coming to the hands of the central government but you would, you would be wise not to underestimate the independence and the diversity of the American states which have a, a genuine er sense of, of local er democracy and difference er and states very frequently resist the federal government. So the ideal as far as federal government is concerned is they, they devise policy guidelines and they provide financial inducements to states to implement various programmes but when it comes down to it they run up against the rock of the constitution and the constitution says that the states derive their authority from this sacred document and they are not to be tampered with and the consequence is that America has, not only a federal government, but fifty state governments er and those state governments are large enterprises which enjoy wide initiative and they contributors, contribute to the divi diversity of the United States as a political system. I'll stop there. Thank you very much. I dunno really, erm saw Doctor last week. See if he's written, I doubt if he's dropped a line to me. Er seventeenth of June,so that's not last week's is it? No. He said you were going to change me on the medication, Right, well so he's done that has he? Well I supp I imagine so, yeah. I don't know what to though. Have you, you haven't got them with you? Afraid I don't. Oh that's a shame. He Oh he hasn't given you anything? No. He's letting me do that is he? Yeah. Oh well. Well the letter will arrive very shortly so, I'd be quite happy to do that without necessarily seeing you. So er we can write , his initials, is changing medication. see me in three month time. Right, did he mention anything else like angiograms or? Er he mentioned going to Leicester. Yeah, well that'll be the, what that's for, yeah. Ooh, I suppose i it, it's going to depend on how you respond to the change of medication. Yeah. But I don't know what it is yet, so er Neither do I . I just have to wait for his letter, but I think the sensible thing to do would be to talk to you about what he's putting you on because a lot of these drugs are not without potential side effects. That's right, So that's something we will need to talk to you about before we just give you a prescription willy-nilly. Yeah. So now that's okay. Now I don't think er the other lot have seen you, have they? Over the past week or so. No. No, that's okay. The Diasopan I think is still, are you about three a day? Yeah. Yeah. Now and you've just had another prescription for that haven't you? Yeah. Yeah. I mean you may find it's not very easy to cut it down further until I must admit I've been taking Yeah. more, Yeah. because I have had a lot of hassle Yeah. with Carol and Yeah. Well I don't mind that I mean I, the er the overall amount is still much lower than you were Yeah. and you are allowed to take the occasional extra, if it is only the occasional extra, It is yeah . I'm quite happy with that. I really don't mind. I, I still want to have the downward trend but I suspect until this is sorted out we're not going to get you off it altogether. And er and it is, your chest is potentially the more serious one of the two anyway, so I went away for about five days, six Mhm. days. I went to the Norfolk Broads, and erm I think it was Saturday morning we went to have a look at a flat, Mhm. and it were like I don't know what had happened but Mm. I didn't feel very well. No. And something like hit me from the inside, Mm. and my mate was behind me and he's a, he's a big lad, and he just caught me. Mm. And I'd gone. Mm. How long did it take you for to come round? Five or ten minutes. Yeah. How did you feel when you came round? Well I went to bed at er ten o'clock in the morning and I woke up at ten o'clock at night. Mm. I mean it sounds more like a, a faint rather than anything with your That's right. heart, but er let me just check your blood pressure this morning. Cos that, that has been a bit up and down, Could you just turn,thanks. It'll squeeze a bit, Mm. Mm. Once again it's quite low an and er certainly if it dips much below where it is, you certainly can feel dizzy and faint, and of course the medication doesn't actually help that, which is one of the reasons why we need to I feel so Yeah. lethargic, Yeah. and Well some of that could be the tablets you're on. Unfortunately I'm not quite sure what he's suggesting we put you on. Well I brought all the tablets along. Yeah, let's see. Yeah. Er I know it's quite a lot. There really are a lot here aren't there? Er there's the er Chemical Well the yeah. Well the aspirin and the g The aspirin is essential and you've got to carry on taking that. And I do take ? The G T N, you only take if and when they're necessary, okay? The Diasopan you're already cutting down, we know all about that. The Dithiopin er won't affect your blood pressure and you really need to stay on that as maintenance, cos there's a I don't think I've got any of them left. Oh no, they've just run out, yeah. I, I think you really should stay on those. If you stop them, you'll be fine initially but there's a fair chance you could actually get a lot worse without them. That's the catch, they won't affect your heart, your blood pressure or anything else. From that point of view you're fi that's fine. But they certainly will help you sleep. Mm. Let's put you back on those. And the erm ni the, the, the capsules and the er Nitrous Albide I expect are the ones he's going to change though the problem is exactly what to. Yeah, I think, I think we have to wait for the letter, I suspect you'll probably find both those changed to some extent after that so er I think we really have to wait for that. seven ninety three . Okay that's Dithiopin I think the answer to your question, can you get rid of them? Yes I'd love to get rid of a lot of them but I'm yo you have got two ongoing problems both of which need to be treated so I think to start er cutting things out could make you a lot worse. Whereabouts was this flat? Norfolk Broads. Ooh whereabouts? Er Marton. Very nice. Yeah. Very nice indeed. It's a different sort of life out there, to some extent. Twenty five pound Blimey. Absolute Mm. Do you think you'll go? Er I've got negative equity in No. Oh I see. So if I haven't I'm going. Yeah. Mm. It's a lovely place of the world to live. Yeah. I've actually been down to Norfolk this weekend so You have? Yeah. Heaterset which is near Norwich, we've got some friends living but er Yeah. I, I worked in Norwich for a year and a half, so I actually know it. And my work, wife worked there even longer so we know the are area quite well. Oh it's lovely. It is, very nice. Mm. I stay at my Mm. Er we went to er the coast, what's it called, Mm. two miles away. Yeah, that's lovely. And magic. Very relaxing. Yeah. That's what you need every now and again. And I was, I wa actually going to live down there. Mm. sell the house or whatever but er there's this pal of mine and er he's going on for, for ten years, Oh, it happens, it happens. That's cocked that up. Right, well see how things go, what I would do is enquire in about a week whether that letter has come back and then we can arrange to see you. So I think we ought to have a chat about the sort of things he's putting you on, and then what side effects or anything you might get from those, but Yeah. we'll, we'll have to see. Fine idea but Okay? Okay. take care, bye then. aware of Graham he might be more receptive. Who knows? As a starting point we could write to er Graham , and invite him to visit Mm. either facility. Mm. The other thing that's been done, erm, and has been ongoing now for some months without too much success, but things seem to be moving a little bit, at least we're told they are, is that I I pressed for, not really a presentation but a technical meeting, I wanted to get there there product engineers Yeah. around a table so that we could get to know, er, well, I could get to know the way they do things Yes. er and to try and explain Yes. erm how we could fit into that, make them more aware of, of, perhaps which bearings are the better, price ways which are the better bearings to go for Mm. make them more aware ba basically about bearings and, and erm the popularity of certain sorts of bearings Mm. As you're aware, we've been trying to or organize this sort of open forum, engineering in the house in September Yeah. and we were informed last week that It may happen February. It may happen in February. It's been dropping out. You, you've been there when we've had discussions with Jonathan. Well I think, I think what you what you got to do, and it's between you two to continue to press that, and and chivvy Bill erm erm er and push and cajole, and it may mean that you need to erm over visit er Yes. erm Clevedon, or wherever it is that these guys hang out. Most of them are at still at and there's a few applications Are they? Well, erm at Clevedon but they don't seem to have much . them then, and and just keep pressing, keep keep pushing away Mm. erm I think it would also be appropriate at some point in the near future to visit the valve engineering in Dunstable er we've got the names of chief engineers . Yeah, we've got the Yeah. There's this guy there called Les , now it was put to us when we were down there last time that erm, attending this meeting when it happens would be er one Nigel , who's, I don't quite, I can't remember what he's picked for, erm he's actually been promoted, he's pretty senior, he was basically in charge of the product engineering at , and he's now been promoted so that puts him even further up the ladder Yes. and he's supposed to be obtaining initials with the Should it ever takes place. if it ever takes place, and also Les who's the chief engineer effectively at Dunstable. Ha have you, have you got a a, have you laid out an agenda, for f that meeting ? I haven't yet, no. We didn't want Cos I think, what? We didn't want to be too specific at the moment . No, I Er, it I really want to get, I er, I I want you to, I didn't really want to make it to four, I didn't want to get it too formalized because I think that sometimes gets in the way of real information. Yes, but the trouble is they don't know what they're going to get out of it, you've got to No. in order to get them, in order to get them to come, surely you've got to sell them the idea that they're going to get something useful out of it We've been doing this and make it worth our while. Yeah. We've been doing this for sometime, it doesn't really seem to have taken too much effect, now at the moment we've been channelling everything through Julian and Jonathan . I don't know what the reasons why there's always been a month on month cancellation, maybe it's difficult to get people together there, maybe there not too enthusiastic . Well, no they're not Could, could we get, could we get Tony , could you write to this new chap Graham , and say, you know, congratulations on your new appointment I think as a starting point er and and and nice to know that we want to establish contact and you may be aware that we've had this plan, and, and what we want it to achieve is so and so, and we'd like to set it up in this way. We could do that, I think perhaps, at the moment it's ongoing, I think perhaps we ought to wait until, see what Julian and Jonathan come up with in February in perhaps. I think if it becomes clear that if it doesn't happen in February we're going to have to really reappraise the situation, Mm. but in any event, I think you ought Right, I'm, I'm prepared to bet a fiver that it won't happen in February, through Julian and Jonathan . I'd be prepared to go along with that as well. Do you take me on? No, I won't take you on Right. I think it's a sure fire bet at getting a fiver, what I think we ought to do immediately Exactly, so what I think we ought to do immediately, however, is to write to Graham , inviting him to , let's see him. Yes. if we can kick things off in that, er from that sphere . That, that could be quite a good opportunity actually actually, couldn't it. You've got an opportunity now because he's just been appointed to make contact with him, you don't need any other excuse to make contact with him No. and sew the seeds that there has been procrastination going along, and we've got some very good ideas to offer his people, and we would like to er er and hope that he he will erm encourage his people to erm, get along and meet us. Mm. On a technical basis sooner than later, and what you're trying to do is to understand the design and development process Alright. and for them to understand erm the the er bearings selection issues. Yeah, I think when it comes to bearing selection issues we ought to be clear in which direction we're going in, now, it's in our interests at the moment, as we're unable to produce a larger series of airings in the U K or in Europe, to steer them away from those sort of design, but it seems also to be fairly clear that demands for packaging and compact design for steering gear, tend to be favouring the =mote, remote valve arrangement, therefore putting a considerable advantage Mm. with . In trying to persuade to move away from arrangements which utilize those bearings we're effectively trying to do ourselves a favour, because we cannot provide those bearings, but we're not necessarily offering the optimum engineering solution, or maybe even the total cost solution in certain applications Mm. Well because of the actual costing input in implications in growing the gear to such an extent you can, to actually utilize Yes. popular metric measurements. But, but this is where you, where we've got to strike the appropriate balance between doing what is best for the customer and what is best for us. Now I would see as one of the erm powerful reasons for being in the leading position that if we are in the leading position, and we know that the right solution from a technical, and probably from an overall cost point of view is the sixteen double O three, or a six eight O seven, come to that, and we know it far enough ahead, But you see we can't then we stand the possibility of being able to influence our own purchasing issues in order to er er to to make it happen. You see, we can't really know, that erm, we can't really know what is the most cost effective solution, can we? We can only go by what they, overall costing effective solution, we can only go by what they tell us, I mean we we just have to believe what they tell us, don't we? We Well this is, this is where, this is, I mean this is one of the issues that has to be brought out in any discussions concerning partnership. Yeah. We've got to get more If we don't have things like that on the table, and if we don't have, I mean there there are issues like, like, what are localization intentions? If the choice of bearing is between a sixteen double O four and a six double O four, it may hang, for us it may hang on whether, er, whether we can localize the sixteen double O four Yep. for them it may be that the sixteen double O four has a more expensive housing arrangement anyway, or under that purpose Right, I see that's the they may be cheaper, I don't know, but but that was one of the issues that's got to be taken into, into That's the raw line,yeah. consideration, but if we're not there having the conversation we won't even know that the conversations been l No. going on, so we won't be in a position to estimate and forecast for our own benefit Yeah. that the sixteen double O four is likely to be the item used in this new gear Hmm. and it's likely to be at half a million a year, and the production will start in nineteen Yeah. ninety six, and therefore we've got time to do it . yeah. But if we don't get into that position in the first place we'll be out . You are only looking at it from our point of view though aren't you, I mean they, they're going to look at it from the point of view that they can possibly obtain sixteen zero zero fours, although they'd obviously like to get them cheaper, but at a price that makes the the overall package that contains that bearing and a six eight O seven cheaper than than the package that we would like them to use which inc would incorporate six zero zero fours, and er whatever after . Whatever. Abso absolutely John, See John, but you you miss my point Just give me two I'm sorry you, I haven't explained myself clearly. If we are not having that conversation at the initial design stage when the total project for production is certainly many months ahead if not years ahead. Yeah, I didn't, I did understand what Then you were saying, yeah, but we've got to know, basically what they need to be paying Well for the sixteen zero zero four, aren't we? But no, no, because we can make the assump , we can make the assumption that it that the that they could get it, if they don't get it from us they'll get it from whatever the prices. You see at the moment So we know that. we're so far out that we're not anywhere near, you can't Yeah, but we know where they're getting it from , so we know what, we know what it's costing them Yeah. that's not a problem. I don't, I can just see, just isn't a problem. Well we have, we've act , we've actually ow ow opened the, we've started open again there, haven't we? We've gone in Right. We've talked to them at length That, that game has got to be continued. Yeah. And it's got to be continued not on the subject of existing gears, which is what it this last conversation is about Short is got to, they've got to be talking about Yeah. next generation or next but one generations. Those are the ones that are really going to matter, it's too late to talk about an existing gear once it's in production, But I think what you see the moment, the moment's gone . The thing is The thing at the moment, the seeds have already been sown Yeah. in terms of the actual favourite Yeah. of being shown to the remote valve arrangement, and the fact that they already want to carry over R eight onto R three with minimal changes Yeah. whatever replaces R three and R three, and R three will have a product line for seven or eight years, we're talking about quite a long time away. In that period of time we'd have dropped from being the largest and preferred supplier to a minority supplier Mm. therefore letting, opening the door wide open to , who are able at the moment on the current generation of platforms, and the next generation . Get the figures, get the figures, Yeah. get the figures out of them, See get the figures,do I mean, we're talking generalities, if you're saying from what you know already the, the remote control gear is going to be sixteen double O four six eight O seven, and that is the best bearing arrangement that anybody could, anybody could produce, then, if that's the answer, then for goodness sake get the figures, stick 'em in a memo so we can go and hit Peter , and make it quite clear to them that over the next year they're going to lose half a million six double O ones, or whatever it is One six two O twos , and we're not going to replace it with anything, and we have an opportunity if we go for it now that we could replace them with sixteen double O fours and the projections are Well that's it right Yeah. if, if, that is the situation that you are saying now, from what you know now, Yeah. then don't let's beat about the bush any more, if that's what we know, and that is our strong belief that that's That what's going to happen that is let's, let's go specific on it, let's tell 'em, let's, let's tell the factory people that this is what it's going to be. That's what we wanted, I wanted to hear really . Not as clear as that, it's not a ris , it's not that they're either going to lose the six double O one and half a million, it's the thing that's, admit that they might, and it weakens our position. One doesn't replace the other. Six double O ones in the gear, the six eight O seven and the one six double O fours in the valve, that basically that drives the gear if you like, in simple terms, and a David's point was that if we're allowing to further develop the valve business, and we're just standing still say, on the gear business, and ultimately they have a bigger supplier, and ultimately put either gear business under more and more pressure, yeah? Yep. And the likelihood is that in the fullness of time they'll be the preferred supplier, and they'll be also supplying the gear bearing. It's a go to Can I just Peter and say that if you don't do this you're going to lose that, because that wouldn't be being So honest with them. so we have gone to them and said look it's six eight or seven But it ca , it's a duel, it's and look at what's duel pronged attack isn't it? You've got the situation where you've got remote gears, and you've got a situation where you, sorry, remote valves, and you've got a situation when you've got standard valves and also a small Yeah. amount of manual gears, now what we're doing at the mo Hang on to David But who's to say that they don't redesign the standard valve? No they don't get any standard valves, but what I'm saying is if there's a clear indication that the trend is away in future direc generations from standard valves to remote valves. I can believe it is. I believe it is. Also, not only does it expose, er, our weakness on the fact that we can't supply the bearings for remote valves, it also opens the door to whatever standard valve business will continue in the future. Two . Right. We, we, it's fairly clear that the manual gears is virtually, within five or six years it's going to be very, very, very small. Yeah, and that used to be our strength before, er that's the sphere of operations done before the there was more, if you like,, technology, shall we say, associated with varying sort of manual valves than what there is power valves, in other words power valves offers it up to people like , or Yeah, there's no know how required really is there? I mean it's just bog standard bearings now. I'm sorry, I I've obviously misunderstood something, because I was under the impression that in this er er steering gear there is only the sixteen double O four and the six eight O seven. There is. valve, there's a valve But what you're saying to me is that there are six double O ones and There's six two O twos in There's that as well? There's six, er, the six, hang on, the sixteen zero zero four supports the pinion at the top, above the pinion, and there's a needle roller bearing below it, erm There are no other D group nor bearings No, I know. in the gear. It's six eight O seven. No, no, no. You, you're right, what I It's six eight O seven. I, I, dropped somebody up a little bit, so there's the one six double O four and the six eight O seven. That's . Yeah. Mm. And that's the valve, we, we, call it valve business basic, it's done at Dunstable, it's not the same as the sort of resolving style er gears, even though it has got a gear to produce a and it joins it later on, so there's the other ball bearings business for the gears, yeah? The conventional style, gears, whether they've been power or or manual, as develops erm more of the sort of business on those type applications, yeah, then basically it increases overall share and then it puts pressure on the business that we've got on the other D group ball bearings. Right, okay, Cos we're not even saying that look, look, I, I , I've got to go because I've got another meeting to go to this evening, erm, what, what I, er what we need to do is to get this laid out clearly as to what our projections ar are That's what we've got we've got the technical input, we've got a technical understanding of what's going on, let's have a paper on it, and put out some figures, and put out some projections as to what we believe, pooling the knowledge that you guys have got, let's put it together and lay out where we think it's going to go Yeah. and I mean, it doesn't really matter whether I've understood it correctly or not, because clearly there, there is an issue, To start with there is an issue and clearly if we are not in the sixteen double O four six eight O seven business we are going to lose share, we may not lose total volume, I am confused about that, but don't try and sort it out now, but those are the issues that need to be tackled, and you need to produce between you some sort of projection paper which lays out the way that you see this bit of the steering business going in the future, and recommends what we should be doing, and what the volumes are to support that, and what the volumes are likely to be. That's exactly why I To support that. Okay? wanted this meeting to take place, I want to find out what the design philosophy is, long-term future-wise, and also, I want to get into their detailed design, so to try and establish how they determine the size of sh even simple things like pinion carved diameter, which dictates Yeah. basically the ball The ball. you know, you start from there, how they do that, can can we get in perhaps something a little down there Right. Okay. that sort Look of stuff. what, what you need to do, and the sooner you do it the better, the sooner you can get the information the better, is to set out those sort of philosophical issues Mm. those long-term projection type issues as to what is the general vision, direction that they're going in, and therefore what should we as a group be recommending to our manufacturing colleagues that they should be manufacturing. If we conclude that it becomes clear that the trend, long-term, is away from the conventional type of power steering, with a valve mounted er in line with the input car That, that's coming, away from that. Okay, if that's what you want to recommend, recommend it. I We don't have to get onto thin section, to larger section bearings . Okay, okay, you're making that assumption you're making, drawing that I know I'm making assumptions. conclusion. But weren't you getting fixed up That's something business. We can That's why you're going to write the paper on it. We can make that recommendation Adrian if that's what we're going to Right. sort of make a recommendation Yeah, yeah. in writing, yeah, if we think that's the way it's going to go, so we've got to get in there and find out. So I would agree with what Tom said on the sort of , things, yeah, you know, knock that together, we've got that on one piece of paper already that's about two years out of date, well, was up to date two years ago, which I could probably dig out for you, and then erm we've got, we can even do it from a European sort of view point, which just has a few things there that need taking up. But j just before you go, Tom, the issue on whether or not Peter or or it lets the thinner section deep groove ball bearings, isn't going to rest on . No. One six zero zero four are not even anything you want to rest on , fundamental problems are each treatment, the processes, and erm distortion of thin rings, which as them er, er, er, an issue when it goes to face grinding, in as much as because of the distortion you get all those lever locks stuck on, and you got to do about twenty passes on t' face grinder rather than two, and that means that we've got an equipment out of balance in the factory, because er, it's got, you know, so there's quite a lot of investment Right. and what we've got to do is er er as I said to Ed a little while ago, I mentioned a little while ago, we need to gather the other thin section Ha. bearing demand together. In other words That is, that is something, We need to research the market . that is, that is what, that is what exists to do, or one of the things that exists to do as the U K sales company our business is to give the projections for a particular piece of business, and if we see any other similar bits of business around it that's fine, that's, that needs to be added to it, but to give our vision of that particular piece of business, feed that into the marketing people in , and say, look, this is the situation if we go this way, this is what we think is going to happen, if we do this, this is going to happen, if we don't do this, this is what's going to happen, so that that can be fed into an overall picture, and they will come back, I presume, and say, right, we now have enough information to know that it's going to be worth =vesting, investing in production of sixteen double O fours in er Peter . Or we can put this together with the American bid, and we'll produce them in in the States, or whatever, whatever the outcome is, I would have don't let's, don't let's try and assume the, all we're, all we're trying to do is to gather together the bit that we can put into the pot, and to present it in a logical fashion, to say, if this, then we belief that, and if that, then we believe the other, 's Right, and this is this little bit of it, now, made them come back to us and say, well but yes, that's not enough on its own, or that's too much on its own, or whatever, or there is no hope, you may as well forget about this because we've already done the study, or somebody in Japan's already written off, whatever, but from this point in time, let us, as the sales company, get the information together as it relates to . In conclusion then, let let's do the background work Yeah. do the research, and we'll put together a paper stating clearly where the fundamental trends are going to go. Right, yeah. And let's aim to have that by the end of February. Right. Yeah? Is that reasonable? Yes. You can go now. Have you checked with erm, oh I can check if you want, with er , you see the problem is they don't visit don't really know what's going on, it's basically Mm. all Mm. over there, but somebody can perhaps Okay. what the situation is, if you go in . Erm, David, that really er is about er four point four, the parallel activity necessary sister companies er to erm make sure that the same message is getting across, and that whatever they are saying to the continental is actually supporting our attempts to er erm become the preferred supplier. What we've got to do is, or I've got to do is to get our sister companies to visit the buggers. Right. It just erm Well, okay, now it it may be that one of the things that that relates to again is the meeting that we talked about, erm and the need to get them around the table and begin to talk about those sort of things. Show a bit of esprit de corps Yeah. and I think, if if we have to do we've got a, a, we've got a sign that er aren't going to do the sort of er so they contact technically with in Germany, then if we have to do we will. Right, yeah. And er yes, they only take that. Mm. If, if that, if that happens, but clearly Yeah the firework systems supposed to be the centre of the Red Vase designs, we're putting ourselves in a considerable disadvantage in not visiting and influencing these Red Vase Designs . Yes, yes, if, if, if won't go to them, then you'll have to learn German and get over there John. Jahwohl. Maria. And how mu Can you, can you find that out, David? Not in From , what the situation is? That sounds alright to me. They'd say it was a business proposal. Yeah. Not . How do I get the honest answer and that is another matter, I, I, I'll find out what they say, but er I suspect that they will erm not be doing an awful lot, I suspect they'll pretend, er that they will erm be helpful, and then they won't do an awful lot, Er Because I ain't got no belief. Right. I'll just have to keep an an Okay. eye on them, somehow. Well, anything that you can do there, erm in in the immediate future would obviously be helpful, to support our case for being considered as the er the er European supplier, erm, and likewise with Italy, Spain, and France, not withstanding that at the moment they don't do a great deal of business, well Spain does a great deal of business, but I don't suppose is in a position to do much in in the way of technical support, erm, right, Well, it's a perfectly good Okay. it doesn't matter others er there's also some situations in the States , until that operation in June becomes er self sufficient, there's a lot of design work goes with the States, those V W and gears . Well I high in the States. It may Mm. be, it may be that we need to get over to the States, to, to, erm pick up the technical vibes from there, but is the state, er our people in the States aren't in with . No. No. are preferred supplier, for basically we got a hundred percent of the business in the States. Er And er right, that is something else to pursue in your technical contacts here, as to how much influence the States side has on the gears, the bearing design, the di , the the gear design in Europe. You get the impression not a lot don't you ? I get the impression not a lot. So that we can go and put our effort in the right places, I'm awfully sorry to be erm having to push off er in a hurry, but, you know it's partly my fault for having delayed the start, er but I've got to be back Thanks for attending anyway. by half past seven, and I'm already not going to make it. We regret the use of the word genocide in the motion since it is quite out of proportion erm as well as being offensive to many. Motion three three eight calls for full implementation of the content and intention of the European directives. Congress, G M B has been to the forefront of the campaign to ensure that the laws of this country are brought into line with European legislation. It is ironic that a government that talks so loudly about law and order should subvert the rule of law by blandly disregarding its obligations under international treaties. This government is subversive in the true sense of that word. G M B has brought cases under the equal pay directive and the enquir acquired rights directive. We are lobbying hard both here and in Europe to ensure that directives are fully implemented but any revisions to existing directives do not weaken their impact and that new directives are as strong and effect effective as is possible. We have alerted the T U C and European Commission to the danger to workers in insolvent enterprises if the acquired rights directive is watered down. We have done more than any other union to help prepare the T U C's complaint to the European Commission that the abolition of the Wages Council is a breach of the U K's obligations under European law, and London region has recently won a test case on the application of the acquired rights directive to the opting out of schools, and potentially of sixth form colleges and hospitals. The C E C also, also wi wish to make a statement on motion thee five two. A widespread myth among personal, personnel managers is that they can change terms and conditions by simply giving notice of intent. In fact they have no contractual right to do so any more than we can give twelve weeks' notice to increase the pay of our members. Unless the contractor expr expressly says otherwise, employers need the consent of workers or their union to any change in terms and conditions. Our difficulty is that the contractual position is clearer than unfair dismissal law so employers can sometimes, though by no means always, achieve the same result by issuing notices of dismissal and offering new contracts of employment. However, the new Trade Union Act applying a European directive will require employers to consult with trade unions before issuing dismissal notices in such cases. Such consultation will have to be with a view to reaching agreement. A requirement which will strengthen our hand in erm holding employers to their contracts. They may not find it, they may not find it impossible to change contracts but it will become increasingly harder for them to do so. Congress, please accept motions three three eight, three fifty, three five two, three five three, and three six five, and accept the motion three two three with a qualification, thank you. Thanks very much indeed . Put the motions to the vote. Motion three two three, all those in favour? Against? That's carried. Motion three three eight, all those in favour? Against? That's carried. Motion three five O, all those in favour? Against? That's carried. Motion three five two, all those in favour? Against? That's carried. Motion three five three, all those in favour? Against? That's carried. Motion three six five, all those in favour? Against? That's carried. I think, colleagues that's as far as we can go today. Just one or two announcements. We've had sixty nine speakers in total today, fifty two men, seventeen women. The important point is there's been fifty eight regional speakers and eleven C E C and officers. Can I remind conference that there'll be a collection for the Burnsall strikers, that's being taken at the door, immediately you going out. Tonight should be pretty lively, political rally, we all know what the subject's gonna be about. Seven thirty to nine o'clock. John Edmonds, John Prescott, Claire Short, chaired by Tom , should be very interesting indeed colleagues, try and get there. There's gonna be yeah sorry that's here, yeah, he left his notes the Banqueting Hall at the Guildhall. Cambridge anti-apartheid sponsored walk John from the London region, he's trying to get sponsors, he'll be circulating er leaflets to that effect. Colleagues, don't forget, conference tomorrow morning doesn't start at ten o'clock, it's nine thirty. Please be on time, conference stands adjourned till nine thirty tomorrow morning. Have a good night, thank you. Hello Doctor. Good morning Mrs . Yes. Well young lady, what can we do I'm just up to see about this operation. What's what operation? You know Royal Infirmary Aha. th that was temporary. Yes. And he's the consultant told me, it would take two to three days. I think it's years he means. Have you not heard any more about it? Two cancellations Doctor, two. And that's all you've heard? That's all I've heard. Cos we've never heard any more. No. I just thought I'd come up and speak to you about that. Yes. And it's a thingy that I can't forget about. I can't make any appointments for going That's right. anywhere. That's right. You know. Right well I'll get on to them this morning. Will you? That was Mr ? Yes. Mr was That's right. the man. Yes. Right. Yes. I mean, that's a long time isn't it? Oh yes. Yes. Phone Mr Royal Infirmary Mrs operation. As soon as possible. Now could I have some cramp er tablets Doctor? Yes. For my hands any my feet. And this is where I used to get pain. Now I can be constipatied constipated and I can be the other way. Aha. And Dr that was the only w doctor ever I knew up here. Yes. And he always gave me this bottle That's the syrupy stuff? Yes, and he told me to take a spoonful That's at night a teaspoonful A teaspoonful before you go to your bed . Yes. That's right. So could I have that? Yes. Please. I I'm not really a doctor person really, but this is really troubling me up here you know . Oh yes. Oh aye. You should heard long before this. Oh it's a terrible thing Doctor . That's that's a terrible old thing . And I'm eighty eighty two, I'll be eighty three in December. Aha. And you're not getting any younger. I'm not getting any younger, but mind you I'd like to get it done. Yes. Because I can't take any freedom. That's right. That's right. Now. Mark this in here. We were getting the sun weren't we? Aye, today, today. Now that was yours Your er Cramp. Your erm quinine. Was it you quinine? Tab tablets. Was it Oh yes. the quinine tablets? The old fashioned ones. For the cramp. was for this c for the cramp? Yes yes it is still. Sometimes I got to get up in the night and walk about and Mhm. my hand's cold. But that oil, it seemed to help me a lot . Oh yes, it just eases Just a teaspoonful. That's right, just eases things through.? No I can't do with anything. No no no no. Doctor used to say, Never you take a laxative. No no. No that's the worst thing you could do. Yes. Have you had your holidays Doctor? No no. No? October. October. There we are and I'll I'll get on to the Royal this morning. Thanks ever so much Doctor. And I'll be And we'll try and get worked out to you this week. greatly obliged to you. Right Mrs , Yes. I'll just go straight through just now. Right and thank you Doctor . Now have we got your phone number? Er. Yes. Wait a bit, Yes that's right. That's right ,. Okay. we know where to find you. Thanks Doctor, thanks very much. Right that's enough. Bye bye. Right cheerio now. That much sooner and in the last hour, couple of hours we've seen what I would call a Tweedledee and Tweedledum amendments erm because quite frankly there isn't that much difference between them er at the end of the day the impact on the people who've had to pay the bill is virtually the same. The amendment which has gone up there and which I think is being circulated is our amendment which is designed to achieve spending at the government target figure. Now, despite what er councillor said in the paper the other day, there are no real surprises in this, no rabbits to come out of our hats. Because of course we did put er these proposals, most of these proposals until we've had to erm at the board meeting er and we did give them full publicity in the Cambridge Evening News a couple of weeks ago. But you might say, and I councillor did say in fact that of course we would be most unfair in the way that we did this because to quote from him er we were giving no time, no time for discussion, no time for evaluation no time . No time for evaluation and no time for consultation. Well just I wonder how much time councillor actually wants to consider our proposals. I wonder if he's looked in the minutes of the council er for this time twelve months ago er when we proposed a very similar amendment to the one that's on the board there, the figures are reduced er but certainly lots of the areas are actually there and in fact if he looked back even further in the minutes he'll see that it bears a striking resemblance to what we actually proposed on the fourteenth of February nineteen ninety one. If two years isn't enough to consider the proposals that my group have consistently put forward, I don't know how long it's. It's consistently wrong. Well if they're consistently it's amazing that you have accepted something, er actually moved in our direction this evening. Can I quickly, quickly go through the various points. First of all we're not prepared to put the nine thousand back into the environment committee budget to er to save the cooperative development agency. I wish I'd brought the environment committee before so I could quote from it but from er recollection it says that that organisation did not have a consistent record of producing a significant number of jobs and that the expenditure on funding them did not provide value for money. That's what the report said. Everybody I thought, accepted that in committee, I can't remember what the liberal democrats did but certainly we did and certainly all the members of the labour group . So I can't see any reason er for putting that back but obviously we've . The argument about the contingency fund erm I find that amazing that er y'know, up until a few hours ago you had to have two hundred thousand pounds. The labour group have now agreed to reduce it to a hundred thousand. I see no reason whatsoever for a council that will still have two and a half million pounds in balances after the labour group proposals, why on earth we need to build another hundred thousand pounds into the budget, paid for by er council tax payers to provide for unforeseen expenditure. I don't think we ought to provide it because that just means it gives the wrong impression to the officers I have to say. It gives the impression we're prepared to spend the money and that's what's happened in previous years and it shouldn't happen. If there was a desperate emergency you could find the money from other sources. I'm not going to go into any length about the community arts budget, that is one area of service provision that we feel, and I've said for the last two years, does not provide value for money. I I have not one person ring me up and say ooh you rotten tory taking that money out of And I don't want any. So don't encourage the people to do that but that is true if it's so valued you would have thought there would have been an outcry, there hasn't been. The , councillor I am not passionate about getting rid of union representation, what I am passionate about is union members paying for their own representation, not me, not the people out there, if they want a full time union official let them pay for it but don't expect other people to pick up the bill, it's ludicrous er to er put that sort of money in our budget. The local government information unit, the labour party in disguise er I don't think we need to er waste money on having propaganda coming from them just simply attacking the government, completely wasted. We've said all along that staffing the community centre should be reduced er and that we should be encouraging the community to take more interest in running their community centres. The do that in wonderful community centre, I went there to a good function the other evening, very good fish and chips and as well. They do it in and up the road in Peterborough they've got about thirty eight community centre and the labour run council there is handing every one, every one of them over to the local communities. There's no reason why we need to put this money in our budget. The Corn Exchange er oh public relations well I think that speaks for itself. I really did find that we sunk to the pits when we started circulating recipes for cheesecake on er poll tax er payers money, that is absolutely ludicrous and we shouldn't be spending money on that. You made great play on how, ooh advertising is going to pay for it all, out of a budget of about sixty odd thousand pounds you've got fifteen hundred pounds in in advertising. That's hardly paying for the cheesecake recipe let alone the proper information which was being given to the public. The Corn Exchange well I've said that one so many time I don't think I need repeat it. Our philosophy is that it's not just conjuring twenty five thousand pounds out of the air, it's actually changing the way the Corn Exchange is and we feel strongly about that but we are not going to waste your time going through all that. Reduction in committee administration budget of er fifty thousand pounds. This isn't just a figure drawn out of the air unlike councillor , I can actually back it up because I've got the detail of that budget. Do you know that in the last twelve months er we've produced or the office has produced, twelve hundred twelve hundred reports to committees at an average cost of six hundred pounds each and that's just in officer time in writing them, nothing to do with the paper they were printed on, the cost of printing, the cost of distribution, the cost of our time to discuss them and our attendance allowance. That is over a million pounds right in that budget for committee administration and you ask me where we can save fifty thousand pounds, well start producing a few less reports. Let's have a more radical view of the committee structure. We get rid of the cycling working party and what do we do out of the ashes rises another prefix, the transport work. What a waste of time, we all know that the county council is the the highway authority and is fully responsible for traffic management, we're in a minority and to set up a working party is a complete waste of time.. Information technology costs, councillor said, don't worry we've already saved a hundred and fifty thousand pounds in the last year. Alright, fair enough, you accepted what we've been saying for ages that we had to go to voluntary competitive tendering right. Well why on earth, if you're s , y'know, you embark on that route why don't you put something in the budget for the fruits of that exercise and we believe that you can save money by that and that er this is going to be one of those budgets that's gonna end up er under strength at the end of the day because of that. The we're coming closer on the er figures for the er staff turnover and I believe that the four percent, which is easily achievable, on the thirty first of December nineteen ninety two the turnover savings were running just below four percent, alright we just cut some of the post out of today's budget but I still think if we give the wrong messages to the officers er we're in danger of spending money that we don't need to. We need to keep a tight control on staff turnover and we need to pay tight control on our staff budget. Let's face it, it's the largest amount we spend in this council, is money spent on our employees. The balance of this er well the community groups we don't feel it's right to spend that money at this point in time until we've sorted out er where the other four hundred odd thousand pounds is actually going in that budget before we start throwing even more money. The final point is taking money out of the reserves to make sure that we don't have to put back twenty two pounds on the council tax. That's obviously been accepted by the labour group because they have taken extra money out of reserves, we're simply going to take some more out to meet our er our figure that we're trying to achieve. Mr Mayor we all want to provide quality services by this council. Every one of us, we wouldn't devote our time, our precious time serving in local government if we didn't believe in local government and didn't want to provide the best possible services to the people of this city. But I come back to what I've said at the outset Mr Mayor in conclusion. There is a still a clear divide between the conservative groups and the other two groups on the council. Obviously labour and the liberal democrats have no desire to minimise council tax bills. We've been saying the same thing for the last three years and I've got the minutes here to prove it. That message needs to be got home, I'm pleased to note this evening that after three years of making these suggestions you have at last started to accept some of them. It is a step in the right direction. There's further to go and we're gonna keep saying these things until we're blue in the face, as well as Keep on hammering that message home Mr Mayor and I beg to move this . Thank you is there a seconder for the amendment please. I'll second that, it was quite overwhelming . Debate on the amendment. Councillor yes I'm sorry . Thank you Mr Mayor. Couple of points, not the one. I refer with er councillor to the remarks I made earlier about the tr the post of the trade union, I don't propose to say any more on that. But it's interesting isn't it that we have here the proposed deletion of subscriptions to local government information unit unit one thousand five hundred pounds. Is that a desire to save one thousand five hundred pounds or a desire to prevent the rest of us finding out what your government's really up to? Councillor . I'd like to erm just say a few words about erm the three erm reductions in the budget of the erm er the erm community services erm the erm deletion of the arts budgets, you probably have heard this before, but I I do think it's a great pity that erm when it was on the basis and I think very little knowledge of un and understanding with erm er of what arts is about which is to delete one of the, was one of the erm the the erm things in this council which we actually do best, it's one of the things which has attracted attention from way beyond Cambridge erm and which is undoubt has undoubtedly to communities in which it takes place, erm as far as the erm erm oh the erm community, staffing of community centres erm this looks like erm in calculations involved handing over the r the management to the community centres to erm volunteers. In the first place volunteers are be there. There's no reason why we should change our, our method of managing er community centres. It's a judicious mixture between erm youth volunteers and the youth paid extra workers. Some of our, some of our er community centres are in fact run by volunteers, some of them are run, er most of them in fact have a very large substantial volunteer input. But when you have a community centre like street that is which a joint you can see the value of of of maintaining it as a a paid for as a a a erm and be substantial volunteer input that exists. Erm,to comparison with Peterborough's particularly useful but it might be, must be said that Peterborough do have problems with at least three or four of the their community centres all the time, in fact have quite a substantial budget on er staff involved in sorting out problems with voluntary managed community centres. The fifty thousand well I if they do they haven't been able to what what we intend to do. The the the er budget this year is is greatly over oversubscribed erm but applications for grants for people who are being of their work in their community. The additional money that we're looking for this year er a substantial amount of this will go to funding of the rent for the new premises for the c the Citizens' Advice Bureau and I don't propose to stand here and defend the Citizens' Advice Bureau because it doesn't need it, I hope. Erm,the rest of this money would be used part to to fund additional workers in er minority ethnic community groups, children's groups the community service strong support with housing officers in dealing with housing management problems and a a and possibly from community radio among others. We are here to serve people of Cambridge and it's quite clear that the people of Cambridge do want good services, they want, they want services which which improve the quality of life in in in the cities and this is precisely what is erm spending is there to do. Thank you. I've got councillor Erm thank you Mr Mayor, erm I'm taking up to speak about the community arts. I think it's fair to say that it's not quite as simple as just deleting that item out of the budget, there are in fact I think five or six people working for community arts and in the events of that item being deleted we would presumably have to add on the costs of making them redundant erm an an an and dis erm the community arts scheme I think represents, it's true to say, a range of expertise. It's not something that can be done or reproduced very easily by people without expertise. Their expertise lies in enabling others and others to take advantage of arts facilities and helping them erm or working with them to produce the things that happen, for example all the erm posters which were up during last years festival erm were produced in conjunction with community arts which erm has erm er produced on Ditchfern Place, erm and earlier this morning I was thinking that up as I think other councillors did, that more serious of projects which community arts are now entering into er in Chesterton in particularly in the children erm I think councillors went to Dickfield women's photograph project and it is things like that about giving people confidence to join arts in a way erm with which they might never otherwise have experienced and the community arts have taken just that. I think erm it's interesting erm to listen to desert island discs the last two weeks that the luxury item chosen has been a piano and people are saying that they would like very often, there are a lot of people who'd like the opportunity to have learnt a musical instrument. Now I don't think of us here and neither, certainly myself, I I would not claim to be any form of artist or expert but I think a lot of us can enjoy er getting our hands dabbling with paint erm paper mâché and other activities and in fact having that opportunity of ex enjoying those experiences that's we ought to be able to offer to people in Cambridge and many peop children in schools they they do get opportunities but I think particularly amongst older people who've never had that opportunity and I think you should be do so. The community arts team, I believe is an example, an excellence in its field as a team. Sadly we're seeing things too often which have expertise but I think on this occasion we should support the community arts team and not delete the item from the budget. Here, here Councillor Yes thank you Mr Mayor. I just want to talk very briefly to the about er reducing staffing at community centres and with particular reference to to one in in the ward that I represent which is street. That centre for one of the staff who work there, make quite profound impact on the quality of life for many people living on our estates and I cannot see anything more short sighted than denying access to the sorts of services and the sorts of pleasures that people can get from use of a community centre like that by cutting back on staffing so that we can't actually use the capital resources that we've b the capital that we've invested in facilities like that. It's an absolutely crazy idea. Councillor Thank you Mr Mayor, erm I probably will repeat some of the things that have already been said with regard to community arts. We can't let this erm moment pass without actually er er er defending this particular service. Erm, I think it's important for us all to remember what community arts is about. Now the tory party are forever lecturing us about choice are they not. How a lot of this legislation will about choice. Now for some of our members choice is is not something that they are fortunate enough to have because they are very needy and they do not have perhaps all the education that some of the tory party perhaps have, that they have been less fortunate in many, many ways. There are also there are many, many people with special needs who don't have much element of choice about their lives. The thing about community life is that even setting aside the actual word arts through the way in which community arts workers work with small groups of people who have come together because they're doing something interesting because it looks something that they want to do, brings groups of people together. That's then produces people talking to each other. It then helps them to share their problems, it then encourages them. Because they start talking they realise that there's something that they can do about their problems and then they can start to campaign. Now, to help those problems. Now that might stand oh you say, blurgh, y'know, rubbish you you just sort of depend in this particular way, it's not. Community arts is a very, very important part of the community development. It is through these means that the people, our people, all the people in this city many of them bound together and then able to go out and think about their civic lives if you like, their civic, the way th that this council works perhaps and take part much more in just go in and putting little crosses on pieces of paper maybe. People who have never voted before might think yes I suppose that's how we change things. By getting together and talking to each other in this way. That's what community development is about, that's what community arts is about. To say that it's not value for money, how can you. I had this councillor mentioned this morning that Mr community arts erm until April and Russell Street self image problem. Working with adults who have suffered or are suffering from mental illness using drawing and slide photography. This is not value for money, we're working with very, very needy people in our community. We can't just turn round and say right scrap this whole and very valuable part of this council's work . I I would support the community arts programme but I would point out that many elements of it are er the kind of things that technically are the responsibility of the county council's services department. Although I don't, I don't support any the less for that. Er Mr Mayor there's only one point I I I want to make an and that is this is a rather typical conservative budget. I I was hoping for something different this year and for a budget that erm er proposed that didn't depend on er us taking far more from reserves than any other party. But this one does the same thing as ever. Er, the main part of conservatives er saving on the council tax is by taking, comes from taking eight hundred thousand pounds than anybody else. Erm, if you compare for example erm their real savings on er er budgetary items er it comes to about half a million, just over half a million er compared to the ones we're putting forward about a third of million and if you look at the dips in the two budgets for that you'll see that erm we disagree with their saving on community arts and that er they propose saving on in on information technology costs is unrealistic er that market is changing very rapidly there's another large organisation in this city which has found us going down track which we are now proposing to down, has produced no income at all, no no no reduction in cost at all . Erm so I don't think that one's achievable erm I think what this amounts to is that erm there are two cuts that we don't agree with er there's a vast on reserves we don't agree with but we managed to put forward a thousand pounds for education at the same time erm i this does strike me as a budget of a party which it knows has no prospect of any sort of responsibility in this council for a long time to come. I'd just like to to address two points which. Which none of my colleagues seem prepared to direct to. Nonetheless the public has a right to know . That, that is the the questions which we've raised councillor over the contingency plan and also the three point five percent as opposed to. I think they're unfair questions to to respond to erm if you look at the potential calls on the contingency budget in the forthcoming year they're been outlined by the officers. The first is the reduced subsidy grant for council tax housing benefit. You can blame the government for that. The second is the increased take up of council tax housing benefits which we anticipate, you can blame the government for that. The third is the interest on which will be unknown until the council's tax starts rolling in. You can blame the government for that. Support in court costs in respect of Sunday training, trading you can actually blame the government for that as well, for not sorting the mess out. The fifth is the Abbey Pool Parkside Pool non-closure potentially. And then you can't blame the government. But . Might be able to blame constitutionalist . Erm and that I think, the response therefore to to your position on financial figures for the contingency fund is if you sort the government out we might be able to. The second point on the three point five percent turnover . In the past three years we've adopted a three percent turnover . We have not ever yet achieved a fourteen point two turnover and I grant you that at Christmas we were up, just under the four percent mark. It's predicted for the end of this year that we will be under four percent on our turnover savings. Now those are in years for consistently what we have done is we have held those savings in order to do what we said earlier,prune this council back and we structured the organisation by pruning back on staff and that's why th the vacancies had run as high as they have. Now, given that so much of that pruning has already been done and given that even given that situation we have never yet reached four percent contingent er turnover savings, I think it highly unlikely and so do the officers, that they will be achieved this year. Finally we did look once again at that area of the budget when you put that in. We got advice from the officers that three point five percent might be achieved and therefore we we acted on that advice in making the amendments which we did. I think that's a prudent way of going about things, it's responsive t to to the questions which you might possibly have read and but it doesn't make over optimistic assessments about the likely savings that the council control. Councillor second it. Thank you Mr Mayor. My modest er surprise at the beginning Mr Mayor was purely in recognition actually of my er colleagues presentation, bearing in mind all the previous criticism about being specific. If I may say so very well councillor and you were specific and indeed backed up the particular figures, even though of course one is entitled to the that I thought it was fair and well argued. But the first thing that's the first thing to bear in mind, the first thing to bear in mind of course is had our previous proposals in other years been accepted Mr Mayor we would need it as it were to make these cuts from this year. The second point is that of course as we accept into the role of opposition indeed to give these alternative proposals, give this particulary case to come within the government guidelines. But I think of course we can all debate er the various individual proposals and I think if we were in control of the council not only of course would we have different policies but the sort of detailed matters which would come up in debate would be discussed in committee, things would be in the normal way. So it's not necessarily that one has to be too critical of all the individual items in the way that some people have. The fact remains that we as a council if we wish to, can meet a proper prudent budget and the alternative proposals tonight, which is really the the er unfortunate ones which would appear to be going through, are really not recognisable, that this is not the time to impose additional council tax or anything else on the people of this city when generally speaking their personal finances are not at their best. This council is not sympathetic to that councillor. Er, basically this council will spend what it will, whatever the guidelines. Our role is to propose a prudent council tax and that is what we've done and at the end of the day I agree, the figures are juggled one way or another but it does show a net saving of one point three million and however you look at it Mr Mayor I'm sure the leader of the council, if he adopted these proposals, could then find somewhere a sum for a stress control officer. It was in the original setting we realise the zany difference between myself and Chris that when Graham gets up to speak the earth moves . This is and many of the matters have been dealt with erm I think by speakers on various sides of chamber. W what I go for are two major points I think which actually demonstrate the fallaciousness of this budget that has been proposed to us as an amendment. The first is how much at variance it is with what actually a conservative government seems to expect. And that seems to be to demonstrate difference between what is happening whether we like it or not at central government level and input of somebody who is perpetual of opposing propositions and that is the to two particular items within this alternative budget. The first is the cut in public relations. We are being told time and time and time again, I think once more talking about this, about openness and the need for the public to know. I'm personally going to throw up being told that this is . This is actually essential. Cutting public relations actually means saying to people in this city, you have got less access to information from the council. We're not trying to say to people, the information is there come in and get it, we're actually trying to present it to them. Whether they're the citizens' charter, whether they are response to people from the press or from the public or constantly ringing in to the switchboard, or whether it's by all the other ways in which we disseminate information. This is something which the government has learned how to do, so I must think that this is highly motivated politically on their part, given the way in which the difference between public information and conservative party political propaganda is becoming a blur to . Erm that this council had a tradition of actually putting forward information in as straightforward a way as possible and indeed the attitude of the citizens' er charter working party demonstrates that we actually put a value on this and it seems to me that there is a gap if you like, between what some people in the conservative group are doing in this context and what they're actually doing in working parties and in committees and it comes out elsewhere as well. Community groups, the community services budget in general. It's very interesting that the only way in which one tory hand went up in support in community services committee for any of the things we had before us and I can only worry, was only because the . And they said, well you know, we was there How long is he going to be la leader of the group y'know . On the ground when we look at services, your voters, your supporters and group not only in the budget . We are talking about care in the community, we know there a on routine fifty thousand pounds extra to community voluntary groups which we can well afford it flies in the face of the group, the instincts of the people that we represent and what the government is expecting. This is a bogus budget and we will happily throw it out with a fairly strong vote. Would you like us to take it in roman numeral order. least you can do . Thank you, okay, all those in favour of the amendment please show and all those against the new found conservative . Right, can we . Mr Mayor if I may amendment if I may. Another amendment. A very brief one I'm pleased to say. this is a fair chance I think Mr Mayor this amendment is very self explanatory, I think we seek to reinstate the noise budget pollution to its original thirty thousand. The twenty thousand required to make that spend will come out of public conveniences budget. I think I speak for the vast majority of the environmental health committee when I say that the abatement and noise pollution has been one of our ongoing major concerns in things for the last twelve months. Noise Mr Mayor, is one of today's great irritants. Be it industrial, domestic or social it is a major cause of neighbour disputes. The problem is particulary acute in the evenings and at night when parties, music and other noise sources can have most effect. I'm sure we can all recall cases of being driven to distraction by blaring music and late night noise especially during the working week. The purpose of thirty thousand Mr Mayor, will be to extend the night time quiet service to all seven nights of the week. This will have great benefits for residents across the city who currently have little redress against any midweek neighbours making undue noise. As you know Mr Mayor, we are inside the chamber, don't believe in spending any more than is absolutely necessary in any part of any budget so rather than spend any extra money we are proposing an extra twenty thousand be taken out of the public conveniences budget. In the original proposals there was in fact scope for savings of a hundred and ten thousand pounds in this budget. In the event we agreed to only save seventy nine thousand pounds. As you can see therefore, there is at least some scope for further savings without actually causing undue pressure to this particular budget. As with all financial decisions Mr Mayor, this one comes down to a matter o a question of priority. This group places extremely high priority on the abatement of noise pollution and I hope it's something we can all support. Councillor I I had to admit that I'm slightly lost in that one A now ends as I understand it with the roman numeral three that was proposed in the labour amendment. That is now the end because of the difference of one A but if you're proposing that this comes at the end of one A, you're proposing to tack it on to the end of roman numeral three in the labour amendment as was the council's which I take it, was not what you intend its effect to be. So could you please reformulate if you so wish, your amendment so that it comes in the appropriate point. Okay so,. You want this added at the end of roman numeral four. Councillor . Sorry is there a seconder for the amendment? Er yes Mr Mayor, I would severely question the effect of this amendment in two parts and erm the second part er restoring the bit for noise er if er we don't take a vote for public conveniences. Er the erm the environmental health check I think he did discuss it at fantastic length, the question of our public lavatories an an and the savings that can be made and the judgement it came to in the end was a, was a very one I think on the outlook against of what you can reasonably do, erm nevertheless I do gather that erm erm it is no longer necessary under standing orders, for erm amendments to the budget to be self financing because you can move amendments to simply increase the budget and er the amendment that I reserve I suppose, it's not very much. Councillor . Yes well we as councillor has said, be it both of these matters should be discussed at great length by . On the question of the public conveniences erm I feel there's been a lot of discussion about this, this kind of issue and I feel that what we've got now is a good agreement erm, we've got still providing a good level of service with attendance at the central I don't like referring to conveniences, at the time that they are most needed and I think that now I wouldn't like to see us go without that if we don't really need to. On the other issue the noise pollution again I feel quite strongly about this. I mean, this authority is actually erm the only authority the council is providing a call out service at all. I think we are providing a good service here and we're meeting the needs of people erm we are providing a service on Thursday, Friday, Saturday and Sunday now at the times which are identified by officers as the crucial times when people actually need the service. Ipswich for example, was providing a full service and has now actually gone to the times that we're providing. They've actually gone from a full service back to this level because this is what they've found is what people need and obviously this is surely what we should be able to do, erm I think that you know by providing the extra ten thousand my concern now is that we actually make sure that our offices are fully covered here. The spend accounted to quite dangerous situations sometimes. We've got now quite a lot of new officers who don't necessarily have the experience of dealing with the situations. They may need to go out in pairs which is why I think that we do need to put more money into the budget to provide this service and make sure that we're doing it in the best possible way, erm so I mean I think that it's very important that we're consistent about this. I think that to go to a full service that is actually what's moving, go back again is actually just confusing the people. I think that people need to know what we are providing so we need to be monitoring, continually monitoring that this is actually at the times it's meeting people's needs and I'm sure that we will be hearing from members if it wasn't, and we're not I mean it seems to me that the level of services provided now is very satisfactory and we shouldn't y'know, obviously give our officers support to continue . Here, here. Councillor . Right, agree with what councillor and councillor have had to say about the first part of this. I think we've already discussed over great length and I think we've gone as far as we can go at this moment. On the second part, well nobody feels more strongly that I do about the problems of noise pollution and I agree entirely there er with what councillor has to say but may I remind members that this council did have a full service for a six months period, you all seem to have forgotten that, we did have a full service, an experimental one which ran for six months, er we were advised by the officers at the end of that period it was not necessary to run the full seven day a week service, it was not necessary we are still being advised that that is not necessary, that is the advice we were given at the last committee meeting and er the majority of members supported that. Now I will give my pledge Mr Mayor that if and when the situation arises that a full service is required and needed, it will get my full support, er I hope it's not, but if it should arise I would have no hesitation in supporting the second part of the amendment. I don't know if any of you saw very recently, the horrific programme which was on television dealing with this problem in some of the London boroughs and god forbid if we ever reach that stage erm because it is quite horrific so I do think that although we have a problem, our problem is mainly confined to the weekend. Councillor Thank you Mr Mayor, yes just briefly erm. At the present time and in er the public fund and the health committee we did decide to have a review after so I think that is actually in control I don't think we should mess about with it any more at this point. Erm, on the emergency call out I getting surprised that this council insist that it's lit if we don't need it er at all service, I'm sure, I'm quite certain that we have never been told that there's always been a question of anything that goes to actually give us a better call out service . Councillor I second it. Thank you erm, I'd just like to digress slightly to start off with. I feel I must if anyone in my in my ward there are two rounds. At this moment, Stretton Avenue and Harvey Goodwin Avenue. They put traffic calming down Stretton Avenue, the result of this was that the traffic then moved round to Harvey Goodwin Avenue so j to avoid going over the humps they go up Harvey Goodwin Avenue. The re the reason I bring this up, the reason I bring this up, you've supported that in the past you know, they've said, those in the you would agree with that, so the reason I bring this up is that if you we start off by offering a full service across the whole week. Then what happens is we say well we don't need the service of noise abatement Monday, Tuesday, Wednesdays erm so what we'll do is we will concentrate on Thursday, Friday, Saturday. Now one of the things that we have in this city that I don't think they have as many in Ipswich are students and that must be one of the biggest, they are they party revellers of the century, they have parties all the time. So . For parties, they are quite a bright lot of students, if we are operating Thursday, Friday, Saturday and Sunday, they say aha there's no service Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday. They start having parties on Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday . They're not too worried about getting up for work the next day. They may get up at ten or eleven. Ten or eleven for lectures, erm that erm I I think that the is is quite a strong reason, well the other reason is at the weekends are we providing enough cover? Is there enough cover? I was told today by, well I am actually through the process at the moment, where I'm acting as a witness in a case, erm for for noise erm so, well I checked. So the environmental health officer that is dealing with that said to me that he is very stretched at weekends. People are ringing up and no I'm sorry I can't come out because I'm too busy. Seven or eight calls on one night. One of the problems is that you can't say one night you may get seven or eight calls. The next night you may get two. The poor chap's having to get up at two or three o'clock in the morning, this is being paid for it. I was quite surprised to see he was wide eyed and quite awake when when he came to my flat. But the point is. If you're going to, if you're going to provide the service you have to be careful that it, it is being effective, as effective as it can be, does it need to be more effective and should it be operating all week. I actually believe it should be operating all week and I think we should support this amendment. Thank you. councillor . Mr Mayor, I do feel after councillor er er er speech I just have to make a little comment erm people in my ward . But having I could just tell councillor that the main problems which he felt he had to bring into this debate , the main problem is parking across the driveways in Harvey Goodwin Avenue, both the residents get very fed up because the parking . I accept that there is a certain . Do these cars parking across driveways have horns blowing? I do detect a certain er levity here I would point out that it is now twenty five past nine and we still haven't this afternoon's business. There is a lot left to do so can we please er try and stick to the point I have to chair right to respond should he so chose, but not about the cars in Stretton Avenue. I mean I I take this more more seriously my on Wednesdays and Thursdays have to be cancelled now because they will be . And Fridays and Saturday clearly a time when they get their heads down and write their essays. Now my experience of the average student of this . We we got lots of evidence to suggest that actually the amount of noise problem outside weekends is actually and we don't actually have the staff to actually deal with this problem without considerably more expenditure than anybody in this council is actually talking about and our tendency towards this erm again this is a bid of of what's it sounds good and as as to the public conveniences this has been liaised it's been negotiated about, it's been looked at very, very expansively indeed. We've now got a good package which saves us nearly eighty thousand pounds and to actually undo all of that and create an awful lot of public disquiet plus a problem with regard to potential redundancy to particular saving that accommodates this as the absolutely completely inane and except for where it came from, I would be gobsmacked if it came tonight. Right, can we please move forward to the vote on this item. Proposed as it's been suggest by councillor . Those who would wish to take it in parts please show those against taking it in parts this evening we will vote on it as one amendment in that case. Those in favour of the amendment please show those against the amendment please show thank you. Do I have to call the abstentions? Please, in the absence of any further amendments, we now move back to the motion and give councillors the opportunity to debate the . does have the right to stand up on his hind legs again. No. Good, thank you very much. Those in favour of the I did want to say something . It was very good of you to offer but er er I I did restrain myself, I was going to, I was going to talk about Those in favour of the substantive motion please show and those against and my cast. I'll give my casting vover vote in favour of the substated motion. Right, if we can now pass on to item ninety three A seven. Comments no, thank you very much, ninety two A eight, sorry ninety two , ninety three A eight sorry, capital resources. Ninety three A eight I would like to ask a question Mr Mayor. The same question I asked at city hall, it's slightly different in that now the council has left two and a half available over the next erm three years given that it is not already taken. We've made it clear what we would do with the money, I still would like to know what the labour group plan to do with it? I I have an amendment . some sense is a technical amendment in that we know that there are a whole series of schemes which we which have been . Erm which it is the intent of this council to actually pursue for, y'know a wide variety of reasons. In addition we clearly want to have a relatively small scale of capital fund available for a wide variety of the needs and I have identified leisure uses, traffic calming, environmental improvements, that's the ones which I . Okay we a major cause of some five hundred thousand pounds and we give addition to the three point six five one million which has been identified in this amendment. And it would be helpful for councillor I would say that I know that there are a third of our members and from the program committees for capital expenditure which I suspect is going to be to excess of the five hundred thousand pounds per year which we actually have. Now that will need to be assessed by the council as a whole against it's priorities with regard to the balancing of the use of capital against capital to prop up the revenue er expenditure of the council and conceivably er to deal with the problems arising er out of government er legislation and clearly we are going to have to make some decisions decisions about this. But there is undoubtedly a need for council expenditure in this city and elsewhere in this particularly recommendation we clearly have to realise more capital whether from the judiciousness of our asset or of course by . It seems to me that all of us in this chamber have at one time or another, wanted to actually spend money erm it comes programme of committees, I don't think it's behoved upon me at the moment to transgress on what programme committees are actually er but to predict exactly where they will want their expenditure to go but I do know is that there is a huge backlog of member generated aspirations in terms of the environmental improvements, traffic calming facilities, particulary which I suspect were actually generated mildly in excess of the figures which we have before us tonight which is why we clearly leave open that further bids against capital can be made in the course of the next three years, erm which will be assessed against the overall financial position of the council and I think the council much more than that. Is there a seconder for that? Thank you reserving your right the debate on please yes that's right,. my my guess is that by a side wind er can mix all the erm items on the list, terms would include erm maybe committed and maybe not committed expenditure expenditure and that if it does affect because erm there are some items erm in the erm not clear whether it's committed or not Market Square er which we don't want to support. We think th th th th a good idea erm but an extravagance at this point. But I would like to clarify exactly what the effect of this amendment is on the question of erm council's policy on the items already on the list. not been debated as part of the capital programme. have a capital programme in obviously the sense that it would be difficult to get that suggest. I understand your concern an and were that the case show your reluctance to go with the the amendment but there is no such implication that the three point six five one million er er thereby becomes committed in any sense and the big this is an additional provision which may lead er may gone up to er over and above that but it doesn't actually admit it to that. Okay, and I I think that as long as that's . this is an, this is an additional amendment it's neither, it's neither specific nor unquantified. Cos that's what the answers in that figure are . Is there any further discussion on the amendment? No, councillor in that case no. no,. Those in favour please show those in favour of the amendment please show thank you and against none, okay, it's carried . I wanted to say . Ninety three A nine right, we now turn to the document of the housing committee, ninety three G one. Yes Councillor . Thank you Mr Mayor, I I just. Any further interests, no, in that case councillor . Thank you Mr Mayor, erm I I want to be very brief Mr Mayor, that the debate on houses and rent increases has taken place and has been well aired over recent weeks and I don't have any intention tonight of re-debating those issues. My colleagues and I actually take no pleasure in agreeing to a rent increase which results in the highest public sector rates among our neighbouring districts er it is some eighteen percent higher than the average of eight local councils. Erm, the answer in our minds is to take positive steps to reduce the housing revenue account debt burden, a matter which we will continue to bate, to debate until something is done about it. We intend to participate fully in the promised review of housing revenue account expenditure which is er coming later in this year. I want to address the remainder of my, of my ri remarks Mr Mayor if I may, to the liberal democrats er party. Although basically you can still address them to me. Although er er physically on my right I I think their policies, in so far as I glean they have any, er are most definitely far from the right. More than John Major anyway. Their housing spokesman recently Mr Mayor was quoted as saying that the trouble is it is very difficult to think of a solution. When there isn't one. That surely Mr Mayor is the very essence of politics, to come up with a modern solution to today's problems. No one every said it was going to be easy. So Mr Mayor I would like to repeat my recent challenge to the liberal party. If you have a policy for housing, or anything else for that matter, how about sharing it with the rest of us, right and until you come up with an alternative policy, don't you start knocking us for having a policy which we are prepared to debate. Thank you Mr Mayor. We might as well be councillor and actually sort of erm stated the problem to which it is very difficult to find a solution and that problem is how do you keep council rents below nine and a half percent, that is a problem to which councillor does not have a solution. Councillor regrets that er we're bringing council rents up by nine and half percent but what we're doing is in fact precisely what his government is recommending us to do, so I'm a little sup so would councillor kindly at some point explain why he regrets his own government's policy. Erm, take some time off to read erm the handbook we got from the housing finance seminar because clearly he doesn't understand his contacts. Yes, look I'm sorry we've got to raise rents by nine and a half percent. Unfortunately the government is assuming that's all we are doing so they're cutting housing subsidy accordingly and we would have been left with no choice, that's all there is to be said on the matter. Neither have you. Thank you Mr Mayor erm I think for a for a tory councillor er if even form the shape of er. To choose er erm the labour party er housing er strategy, their housing policy is well gobsmacking but given that this is going to be recorded perhaps not a very good idea. It abhors me, it hurts me . Ah With regard to the now unimportant four percent increase which then if you may made I'm sure councillors deny it and if we are to believe the reason that we have to bring our rents to this level is because government policy so dictates that we shall do. And the reason that rents in Cambridge are higher than in those in surrounding areas, or the eight that the councillor is talking about is because the rent levels which er the government require us to raise to are historically based on right to buy values and as he knows as well as I do, house prices in Cambridge have been relatively consistently higher than they have in surrounding areas. Our rent levels have always been in line in the case of tenants guidelines and I of course there were savings that about is insufficient in in in areas. Erm, in we were not sitting here at the end of our, how many years is it now, thirteen, fourteen years. Er of tory council and policy perhaps we would not have to be saying to our tenants that we must raise you rents by nine point four percent this year and let's not forget seventeen nine, I think seventeen point six percent last year that were government guidelines. This is tory policy. Thank you. Is there any further debate on ninety three two one? Right in that case can we do it to ninety three T twenty. Erm,yes, under standing order thirteen and permission of the council erm I do call upon the chair as he introduced this item, do I have your consent so to do? Yes, thank you very much. Councillor . Thank you er er Mr Mayor, erm I knew we would get to that part of the agenda where . I just want to briefly introduce this, I don't want to speak in any great , we have had a long debate in house do you if you wish to engage in a long debate again in view of the time tonight. The reason that this has been brought on, the reason that this er er agenda item brought to housing committee was basically er because it was there and er it's I think it's repulsive to bring forward to housing committee any er government regulations or we need to look at debating and er and that's basically the reason. Erm, I think I'll leave it at that for this moment in time and er if I may speak at at the end . You'll have the right to . Erm, any further . Yes Mr Mayor I I have an amendment Mr Mayor. The amendment is very simple, members will have read it already before it gets flagged on on the wall. It is the alternative recommendation that we put forward to housing committee last week. Erm now councillor and I asked for this matter to be brought to this chamber because erm we felt that the matter w was important enough that all members of this council should have an opportunity to debate it. The background of the the the subject is, as far as I can work out, that the council main approaches to two housing associations with a view to obtaining their erm ideas on how a scheme to transfer void properties to the housing associations would work. This erm approach would have enabled the council to obtain some capital receipts under the terms of the chancellor's Autumn statement. The report that was put to committee by the the officers have arguments which I feel are fatuous, fallacious, erroneous and at best equivocal. Ooh. It puts forward a spurious long term disadvantages as reasons why we should ignore the short term benefits offered to us up to the end of this calendar year. The, another point is that that having raised the hopes of the housing associations the council is now actually trying to close a door that that we ourselves opened and this is tantamount to paying lip service to the health and the housing associations, yes, we'll support you but not if it means that we have to sell you our houses. Er the housing associations approached both have better records than us for rent collection and better records on void times. That is to say that no matter how much we are improving our performance, the associations have already beaten us to it and that, Mr Mayor, I would suggest is a very good case for transferring all our stock to housing associations and there is one final point I would like to make Mr Mayor. Mr Mayor, in a recent conversation with the minister of housing. Ooh. I was informed I was informed, Mr Mayor, that even labour controlled Leicester and labour controlled Sheffield have at last seen the wisdom of making capital receipts from hous er council house sales. These councils have found that they have more cash available with which to repair, maintain and improve their remaining stock and that is a lesson which we in Cambridge will be well advised to listen. I ask this council to ignore the recommendation from the housing committee and to support me in passing this amendment. Thank you. Thank you. Is there a seconder for the amendment? Who was it that mentioned tweedle dum and tweedle dee? Councillor please. Oh dear. Erm well first, I mean I'm sorry to hear you're keeping some bad company Stephen bad news . Where to begin. I think the that the first thing to say is that one of the reason why this option this paper was asked for was that we, so we could actually begin to look to see whether or not trickle transfer made sense in Cambridge. Now you can't do that without going and asking think with the organisations such as housing associations, some factor information about where we would stand if we decide to go down that route. So we're not raising their expectations that this is going to go ahead, that this is the committee policy of this council. We're just asking, if we chose to do this what would happen from your point of view. What would be the the consequences of it. I mean you can't actually examine the options without asking the question so,I mean I just think that's a rather foolish point to introduce into a into the debate there. Housing association is time to rent arrears. Now come on Stephen you were at the same debate that I was at, the housing committee. Now we know some of the reasons behind the time situation. Councillor our our void times are are are very good in terms of the turnaround. Now there are certain measures which housing associations enter into which we don't and for good reasons which enable then to have perhaps in, on occasions, to have slightly lower turnaround times, okay. Now we went through that. One of them was the fact that housing associations ask for the keys is or ask for notification up to a month in advance of the fact that someone's going to leave and that is not something which in terms of our stock, we find practical to do. So we've been through quite a lot of those and it's it, the case doesn't really stack up. Again we're back to the the the same arguments on the capital receipt and I don't intend to begin re-rehearsing those but quite frankly, I mean I wouldn't claim by any to have a vast or a a slightly deeper knowledge of housing finance but obviously since you've been on the council the same length of time as I have, I mean you've got even less. Ooh. Councillor . Yes well as in the c , Mr Mayor as in the case of the active promotion of right to buy nonsense. The argument in favour of er trickle transfer is fundamentally weak because we can't trust the government not to take the money away from us. The argument against trickle transfer is that it makes a nonsense of rational rational housing management. What we ought to be aiming for is more localised revolved estate management. We should be more efficient and we should be more responsive to the needs of tenants. Now trickle transfer will do exactly the opposite. You'll what you'll end up with is different organisations managing houses scattered all over the city. This will lead to higher management costs per household. It means it it's going to be inefficient, it's going to be less responsive to tenant's needs. Now I'm sure the minister, councillor would like us to be more efficient and he would like us to be more responsive to tenants needs so let's do what the minister ask would like us to do and vote against this conservative amendment. Yes cou councillor councillor is second . Yes councillor I I think it's just words that briefly talking about that issue office states because I think in terms of management it just does not make any sense. I mean, it doesn't make sent I I I'm just saying what is saying there. I mean yes of course we should live harmoniously together er who would y'know,sector of those people who have taken advantage of the right to buy and and so on and so forth but we talking about housing management in about housing management costs and if you have an estate of y'know being repaired similar houses which a lot of our estates are, it makes sense that they're managed as it were centrally er and because that's the most efficient way of doing it erm if you have a variety of different landlords in er one estate or one street and all the houses are similar, when it comes to things like modernisation and so forth it it's duplicated a great deal of er er er of work and it is not cost efficient and it doesn't make any common sense at all. Erm and therefore I g I I I do think that is quite a big issue as far as this but all I these these all these arguments have been rehearsed as we've said before, in housing committee, but I would just like to make one point and this is it. I strongly believe, as I'm sure all my group do and I think perhaps many of of of erm opposition, in local authority housing function. I believe that local authorities should have a strong housing function that we as local authorities should be providing good, well managed social housing in which our tenants have a say, where we have good tenant participation, where we have tenants taking a part in the sorts of repairs that they want to see, where every year they are er consulted and asked about where they want us to go next in terms of modernisation and repair. I think that that is fundamental to a local authority, I think it is something that we have here in Cambridge, it is a centre of excellence for local authority housing. There may be things that we can improve and I'm damn sure there are and we work hard at Right can I see those in favour of the amendment, please show. It is your amendment . And all those against, please show thank you very much. Now call upon members oral questions to put their question out on the sheet circulated, the order is determined by the drawing names at random out of a box in the parlour before this meeting. The fact that mine came nine has absolutely nothing to do with it . You are reminded that members are limited to two minutes in asking their questions. Chairs similarly limited to two minutes in their reply. The question a to ask a supplementary question referring to the previous answer and that chair must have two minutes to reply to that. Councillor . Thank you Mr Mayor. Councillor perhaps you could erm tell us the cost both spent and anticipated of writing this rather erm new electoral role leaflet that might be coming out if we feel like it? Fo for I would like to talk at length about my new electoral role Erm we have always out any er leaflet erm clearly so that people to put their names on the register erm that is a statutory responsibility erm the expenditure in excess of what we had er done in the past is actually going to be a very very small amount of one officer's time in redesigning the leaflet erm otherwise the expenditure will remain as it, as it always has for all intents and purposes and I think that answers your question if clearly you have problems about getting people on the electoral register that means there's something about your own electoral . Yes, councillor . I have no problem at all with that councillor . What I would say is I just wonder what the point of it is ed on the principal of of why fix something if if it ain't broke, wouldn't it be better to perhaps spend officer's time elsewhere rather than fashion designs of three colour printing on new leaflets? Erm, all councillors have been been circulated with this. I've clearly feel that you probably responded by saying that the old one which is led to under registration was perfectly adequate for your needs, which as I said says something about your view of the electoral process. This I think is actually more likely to get people to register to vote, I think regardless of any party affiliation you all have something to benefit from that and I suspect the vast majority of members of the council will see that any well designed leaflet that gets people to put themselves on the register is to the benefit of democracy. Here, here. Councillor ,councillor . Thank you Mr Mayor, er there is in Cherry Hinton er a new residents association on the road, Colville Road estate. They have identified a number of problem areas which raise some environmental problems to very definite housing problems. We now have in place a new estates officer for Cherry Hinton er can I ask that that there is a special report brought to the housing committee er before the summer recess on the possible solutions to the problems that have been identified? Er thank you er councillor erm I would actually welcome the er the new residents association which the area. I think it's er, I think it covers the largest area for any er one association and er y'know it's g very pleased about that, erm I am aware of your er meeting and I think it it's obvious that all new residents association will identify erm a lot of things which need doing er when they're first formed. And I think they're actually picking out a particular area for a report is is not necessarily good practice., erm I think we can identify er those areas piece by piece we will go through them, they can be brought forward to a variety of areas. I must prepare to say at this point that I have a special report on the Colville Road area to er er committee, not just on the now but I think we probably need to have further consultation with regard to the needs in that area. That has been quite a lot of money er spent in that area and which I'm quite happy to talk to you about erm I don't need . I'll leave it at that . Thank you, councillor ? No I have no supplementary, I'm perfectly satisfied with the reply er thank you. Councillor , councillor . Thank you Mr Mayor. I think we all recognise that traffic issues here in Cambridge are likely to be controversial issues and I think we'd all equally recognise that er the joint traffic management sub- committee has made considerable progress in recent years in the provision of cycle lanes for example, in dealing with illegal parking er on the city's road and in improving the environment for pedestrians in our main shopping streets. Now, one member of the joint traffic management sub-committee who has been closely associated with all of these three issues is county councillor Tony and I must say, Mr Mayor that I am surprised to say the least by the way in which councillor appears appears to have been treated by some members of the labour party in this city. I propose that honourable members of this council er would not wish to be associated with such a disgraceful campaign to oust councillor , even if he does have strongly held views and I would like to give councillor as chairman of the environment committee, this opportunity to set the record straight on that point. Can I just clarify whether you've asked a question. I'm giving the chair the opportunity to erm er set the record straight on that point, that's my question. Right, well I've been waiting since er what is it twelve o'clock this morning, what on earth this question can be and I certainly didn't er come up with this possible , erm all I can say is that I have always got on extremely well with Tony and . Good. Do you wish to ask a supplementary question? councillor to the councillor . Erm, well my question about the break-in at the Kingsway flats launderette, erm in the launderette the facilities are controlled by a vending machine built into the wall. To collect the takings, er from the vending machine you have to go through the adjacent community room into a small box room at the far end. In that small box room you can gain access to the rear of the er vending machine. About three weeks ago, well let me just, the money actually falls into a tray at the bottom of the vending machine which literally slides in and out, it's a very quick method and c could Councillor could I just perhaps request that you perhaps don't make it quite so easy for any future break-ins. Tonight, business angels, the private investors who've made millions by backing risk and innovation in partnership with Britain's small entrepreneurs. I think I do it because I'm so depressed by the poor performance of professional investment managers in the city, and I hope I can do better than they can. Then challenge from the North, why tough talking Yorkshire lawyers believe they can take the city's cosy legal world by storm. And in notebook, popular at home but not abroad. Can the British television industry export more? There are some unusual partnerships being struck throughout the length and breadth of the country. the success of these new relationships could affect Britain's future prosperity. We have come together to witness the marriage of business angel David pounds sterling, and small business,. Some observers believe their potential is enormous. David pound sterling, will you take to be your wife? As a way of life Of course ceremonies like this aren't real , but the rational behind them is. Rich investors eyeing up prospective business opportunities are being helped byu matchmaking agencies. They've been specially set up to try and ensure a more secure future for Britain's small companies. There are a growing number of private investors known as Business angels, and small businesses. They say the relationship is just like a marriage. Now everyone, the government, the bank of england, the C B I and others are investigating business angels as one alternative way of funding small companies. The upsurge in interest in how small businesses are funded, reflects growing concern that they've been let down by the banks, and the realization that they are the most significant source of employment as the country struggles to emerge from the recession. This company began searching for finance four years ago. Colin came up with the idea for an environmental action cartoon for children's television. They spent four hundred thousand pounds. A further quarter of a million is needed if the company is to survive. Colin feels the traditional financiers can't see the future potential of the environment concept. I mean we're a typical case, we believe we have something that is wonderfully innovative and capable of succeeding financially in a global market place. It was very difficult to get the venture capitalists and the bankers to take it seriously. I think that's a a lamentable state of affairs, and their children, and their children's children are going to have to pay the price for the short-sightedness that's going on now in the ivory towers of the of the city, the the banking institutions and the financial institutions of the country. The cartoonists are veterans of the presentation circuit. is just one of band of companies around the country, presenting their business plans to private investors. Here in Cheshire business men are nervously waiting to meet the business angels is whom hands the future of their company might rest. They're coached by experts from , one of five government sponsored projects around Britain. advise small businesses and link them up with private investors. You're different, you're dynamic, let it come across a bit more about you and you know, what a good team you are and you've cracked it. Try and relax a bit, you know, have a drink at lunchtime even . And just let it come out a bit more. Arriving as ostentatiously as you'd expect from the seriously wealthy, business angels pump money into private companies in return for shares. Angels already invest between two and four billion pounds in Britain's small businesses. the potential could be up top three times as much. Hi Ron how're you doing? I'm okay, look big The directors have developed a comic routine to hammer home their message. property development scheme that I'm involved with, I think you should look at it. Well that's interesting, but there's a couple of ideas I'd like to run in front of you. Fire away old boy, seeing as it's you. What do you know about the music industry? No. High risk, no money in music Colin. I got this great group, super song, just listen to these lyrics. She loves you, yeah, yeah yeah. She loves you, yeah, yeah yeah. With a love like that you know it can't be bad. What do you think of it Ron? No definitely not, that'll never sell. Whoever wrote the lyrics to that should be locked up for an affront to the English language. For companies like , pitching to investors has become virtually a full time job. that's better. thank you ladies and gentlemen for I hope what was a little bit of humour in this long afternoon, er to make a very serious point. We've been developing They know their survival depends on how well they impress. After a long day of presentations, the angels and the businessmen finally get together in the traditional way. After all the hard work the businesses put in, were the angels impressed? Well we had eight different presentations, er i warmed, I suppose, to two of them erm was a small engineering company in the motor trade which, while it will never make a fortune will probably make a living and the people seem to need help. The angels are drawn from all sections of the community. Some are Oxbridge educated former merchant bankers, others came up from the shop floor, but they all have some things in common. They like making money, they like being involved in business, and they love a challenge. I'm a manufacturer, I like to make things, I like to hold something at the end of day and say that's something that's been created. Er at the same time I'm looking for the chemistry er the feel for those people, er the quality of those people and whether I could work with them and whether they could work with me. How Britain's small businesses are funded was discussed at a recent national conference of the institute of directors. Its director general Peter believes that they are vital to Britain's prosperity and employment prospects. There are three million companies in Britain of Which only a thousand employ more than a thousand employees. We all know that job creation comes form the small and medium company sector. It is perhaps not totally coincidental that there are three million unemployed and three million companies and er You could do the arithmetic about what would happen if every company took on one person. Some thing has to be The I O D surveyed three hundred small companies, the results, exclusively revealed to the money programme, show a severe funding shortage for business start ups. Problems too for companies expanding. There's a lack of funding for schemes between fifty and two hundred and fifty thousand pounds, or even half a million. People sometimes think that capitalism means stock markets and and and and share holders and what have you. But the most pure expression of capital capitalism is the the harnessing of private money to start private businesses, and a main concern of the institute of course, is that there is such a shortage potentially of capital, in the system, to do that. This tranquil country scene is close to the Cotswold home of Sir John , a Harvards business graduate, he's one of Britain's most successful business angels. Twelve years ago he invested twenty three thousand pounds in a small local company. It's now worth two and a half million. The company Sir John bought a fifty percent share in was , it's an engineering firm that produces mechanical devices that help to clear storage silos. In its first year turnover was a modest forty thousand pounds, it's now twelve million. But the success story might never have happened if the entrepreneur with the idea, Ivan , had taken the advice of his bank. Yeah. Did a little business plan, cash flow forecasts and all that kind of stuff, er basic but erm, in hindsight still quite presentable I th I think. And I took it to my bank manager who I'd been with for God knows, all my life, so nearly twenty years, and er he just laughed me straight out of the room. Straight off. D don b don't be silly, go and get a job, you know. Er h he didn't even look at it. What do you feel about banks, do you think they know enough about business when it comes down to it. Oh. I hope my bank manager isn't watching this. No I think they know nothing at all about business. I think they erm kid themselves on that they do because they understand figures and money and that isn't business. Is this an are where you agree, er Sir John or not not? Yes I I do I think the bank's big mistake is their obsession with security cover erm and I think they ought to develop some expertise in judgement of people's management and entrepreneurial abilities. And in recognizing the potential of a good business. The Midland bank is one of Britain's biggest. In the eighties, banks fell over themselves to lend money. Last year bad debts cost a million pounds a day. Midland's Chief executive Brain acknowledges the problem. We are risk averse at the moment because we have suffered as you rightly say er so much from bad debts during the recession. Er but in certainly in the case of our bank, er we are most anxious to at least get people in through the door and see if we can find solutions to their problems, find ways of er developing smaller businesses, erm hopefully to reduce the massive unemployment figure that we have in this country. A restaurant in fashionable Mayfair. Is everything alright? It's absolutely excellent? A public relations company is entertaining its clients. There's an old saying that there's not such thing as a free lunch, but this is about as close as you can get. No money changes hands here. But there's still a bill to be settle. Thank you very much Sir, did you enjoy your meal? It was absolutely excellent. The company pays using a barter card. It's an updated version of the ancient trade of swapping goods. This is where that trade is organized, the barter exchange in central London. Erm we've got various requests for mobile phones. We need a restaurant for erm a working breakfast. Zurich, flights to Zurich. Yes we've got er erm eight economy flights. We're after four colour printers. The organize the exchange of goods. Many companies have spare capacity. Bartering enables them to swap it for other things they need without paying. Easing cash flow problems facing companies financed by bank overdraft. This is a problem that the Institute of Directors has outlined in its survey. Seventy one percent of companies go directly to banks as there first source of financed. But what concerns the I O D is the type of funding the get. Sixty four percent of small businesses are on either overdrafts or short term loans. That, says the I O D, makes them vulnerable to economic down turns. The key issue that emerges is that many private companies don't actually want what they ought to have, which is more long term loans and more private equity, and less overdrafts and their short term loans. I I think to an extent the bank have in helped small businesses to make this mistake. It has been much easier to give an overdraft than to go through the whole process of studying a plan for the business and coming up with longer term loan financing. Okay Steve can you talk me through the part of Manchester visit in the afternoon. the government is so concerned about the financing of small businesses that Anthony economic secretary to the treasury, is in charge of a working party examining the issue. He's concerned that banking attitudes may be holding up the recovery. I do believe that one of the best ways we're going to benefit from the new circumstances I hope of economic stability of low inflation and low taxation, will be to ensure that the provision of capital is made by the principle institutions, namely the banks and the investing institutions. So I expect to see er improvements in confidence backed by greater provision and I like to see that directed at the venture capital, risk capital, long term capital. Rather than the in and out sort of capital which I think is reflected so much by overdraft financing. This man, John , is the managing director of Reading based electronics firm,. He's got good reason to thank the Midland bank. Now he makes a point of keeping in touch with his local branch. We're concentrating on the security market place, and we've acquired I think three When his company was in trouble, the bank swapped his debt for shares. We are quite keen to look at equity options, debt equity swaps er perhaps talk a to the government about an extension of the business expansion scheme, specifically into manufacturing industry er and generally look for innovative solutions, persuade to customers to take loans out instead of overdrafts. Er fix their interest rates over a longer term period. That's not always attractive cos initially that's more expensive for them, but er they ha they have to er come to us with an open mind as well. Back at the board of directors are meeting. For Sir John and Ivan bank funding isn't on the agenda. But Sir John is as interested in how the company's money is spent as any bank manager. why are you using an agency rather than advertising in name? Cos you've got to pay the agent a fee for finding it for you. As both company chairman and business angel, Sir John plays an active role. He and Ivan are equal partners. The fifty percent share holding has worked well, because what it means no one person can impose their will, no one has control, you have to resolve problems by agreement, resolve disagreements without coming to blows. Angels don't always work miracles, this deserted farm house was where Mike n hoped to build a successful cider business. Revisiting it for the first time, he recalls his high hopes when an angel with marketing skills appeared. But Mike was forced to sell out when the angel wasn't up to the job. Even though we had explained to him in a small business initially, he was going to be the salesman, he was going to be the marketing director, he was going to be everything. It still hadn't really filtered through to him until he was actually on the ground working, and he just really couldn't cope with that. The business that Mike began has now transferred to new premises, it no longer makes cider but apple juice. The new owner is Lawrence , he shares Mike 's reservations about business angels. A business relies on a driving personality taking it forward, and the confusion about getting somebody on board who is working with you in the business and who is putting money board, is that they feel to some extent, proprietorial to that business, and you can find that that will result in those individuals who have done that tearing apart the business because they are trying to go in different directions. At the moment there are a number of publications such as Link, Capital Exchange, venture Capital Report, which try to put investors and companies in touch with each other. The government and the banks are considering setting up a national data system of business angels, it would probably have to be government funded. Who who are your The organization with the longest track record in matching angels to companies is the publisher of venture capital report. B C R executive, Hamish , is sceptical about the banks' sudden endorsement of angels. In terms of their they the core business, they are reliant on on on medium size businesses, so they need to ensure that in the future that there will be businesses there er t er to be their clients, so I think er it's a sort of enlightened self interest. And er as they're not in the business of providing risk capital, they have to find er some poor mug or opportunist to do so, and I think this is why increased attention is being focused on on business angels as a source. Are the banks simply though, trying to shift responsibility so you think, erm I I I think that the the sceptic in me would would say that they are trying to abnegate a certain amount of of responsibility. I think their is a problem with the first two or three years of a business' life. It's the most difficult time, it's full of frustrations, they're growing, er they need finance that they haven't quite thought about, there are surprises during that period. So there undoubtedly a temptation to think, well let's not bother about that, let's pick them up when they are two years old and they've survived this particularly hazardous first period. But in my view that's quite nonsensical. What we ha If we don't support them during that period, how on earth do we get them to be two years old? Barclays bank has carried out its own research into small business. David says funding problems have been over emphasized. The real issue he says is skills. Well our research has shown that something like eighty percent of all small business's don't undertake any formal training within their first three years of operation and more than sixty percent do not do any formal business planning or look further ahead than one month from today. The effect is that the survival rate of small businesses is significantly adversely affected by this. Nobody's called in? Okay. Mike now travels the country as a consultant to small companies. The lessons he's learnt he did so the hard way. He agrees that skills inside small companies have to improve. The man is very good at making widgets, he makes widgets, but he doesn't tell his bank that he's doing well. The bank automatically thinks he's doing badly because they don't hear anything from him. So it's a matter of keeping the bank advised the whole time. Perhaps Mike business would have survived with a tax incentive to put money in. The idea appeals to his clients. Research by Barclays bank suggest companies do favour tax breaks. One idea that were quite attracted to er would be the formation of a business TESSA. This could operate rather like a personal TESSA and would be a er tax free savings account, which would allow a small business to save for a perhaps a major piece of machinery in a tax free environment. The I O D also believe that there must be tax incentives to invest in Britain's small businesses, but they'd like to see them extended to include the general public. We can all go and invest in PEPs, we can all go and invest in pension plans and all of that gets taken by the institutions and put into the stock market. What we need is is equal incentives to take our money and put that money into private companies. So I we would like to see erm tax incentives for investment in the equity of unquoted companies and we'd also like to see gains tax incentives for the realization of those investments a when when they pay it off. But tax breaks are outside the remit of the governments working party. Not surprising considering government's fifty billion pound public borrowing requirement. If you're urging the case for tax breaks again, then I think that's all too easy and tha that is not what I am advertising or seeking representations for. Of course there will be calls for that. I want to look much more generally at the supply side, at the provision of capital. The liquidity of capital. This is much more about the structural provision of finance, it is about the understanding by financial institution of the businesses they back. I think you'll like this place actually er Whilst there's a lot of talk about how to help small businesses, the angels and their advisors are out there doing it. This company of ex Roll Royce workers has had five offers of finance and is in the enviable position of choosing the partner that suits them. On the back of their expected thirty thousand pound cash injection they've already taken on extra staff. For this successful local experiment to have national implications there has to be a fundamental shift in attitudes. The small companies themselves have got to understand what they need to grow is long term financing and that's cash in the business. For the finance community, what they've got to do, too, is take a longer term view about projects and give the companies an opportunity to to grow and ride the pitfalls and the the peaks and troughs. If the marriage between small businesses and financiers is to have a happy ending, the couple need more than a guiding hand from a few enthusiasts dedicated to their cause. The business angels can't do it all themselves. They need the support of the government. The banks too must get involved and everyone needs to work together because if the marriage proves to be a barren one it will affect the wealth of the nation for generations to come. Yeah I pushed one down and the other one down Automatically yes. So, same as this. If you press this one, if you press record it won't because there's a tape in but if you just press press record automatic and you press record and the play button but you can't press just the record button. They automatically both go down. Provided there's a tape in the In the machine. in the machine that I saw it actually when I was just doing it and it went how loud it was. How could you be unobtru but it isn't look. Can't hear it. Cos you can hear it bzzzzzzzzzzz Yeah. I thought loud. noisy Yeah. You're gonna You could be an ob an obtrusive making that noise. No. No it doesn't Though it doesn't make a noise cos I was doing it wrong. Yes. It's going slowly now. Yeah. Going much more slowly now as it records more conver conversations. That's it. Mm Don't stop talking now. silly. It's all gonna go quiet now isn't it? Nobody else'll say anything. at all. That's ridiculous! You gotta . We'll just have to put it down there some time and just put it on. Yeah. So you wouldn't know when it's on or when it's off. Mm. Just have to try and, take a little while to get used to it. Once you're used to it it's probably . It's all a matter of getting used to being recorded. Conversation. Yeah well it sounds ever so funny when you hear it I know. Yeah. Horrible. You think I don't sound like that! . Really makes you think. I wish done something about my the way I speak. Mm. Mine's terrible because I've got a low voice, a deep voice anyway. Sound more like a man I do. I do on the phone don't I? Don't know really. I've not really heard you much on the phone. Used to telephone didn't you? Well yeah but Didn't know it was me. Oh yeah I knew it was you so it didn't make a lot of difference. People have told me on the phone that I sound cos I've got a deep voice I You sound different. Vera does. Does she? Mm. She sounds funny on the phone. Most odd. Phone her up and think that's not Vera I'm talking to. Doesn't sound like Vera. But it is although it doesn't sound like her. Funny innit? What, her voice is different? No it just sounds Or does she talk different because she's on the phone? No just sounds Some people do. They put their phone voice on. Yeah. Yeah. Don't they? Yeah. Oh I can't put any voice on, I've just got me own. Mm. I find people do tend to put a quite a lot do, put a telephone voice on. Specially if you're phoning a posh restaurant. Yes. Or something like that. You tend to sort of I'd like to book a table for two on Saturday night. Rather than say look mush I want a I want a table, you know. Oh I'd better go and wash our dishes dear. Not many to do now done them all. Most of them. There's only yours. Have you had What about enough to eat? Yes thank you. Fine. I would have done it actually when, when I took the plate out but the water in the bowl was cold. Thought it was hot but it was cold. I think I've used most of the hot water. I think I need to put the immersion on for just a little while. Mm. I need a bath as well but Mm. I've used quite a few buckets of water washing walls. Washing the walls and What's going on outside? Car or lorry or something going by by the sound of it. About that little flat in in Albany Road. Yeah. You have to realize that we're never gonna get away from work. Cos when the wind blows you can smell a tandoori and It's when you walk up that way you know you're getting near it Yeah. cos you can smell it. Won't bother you? No. Not really. Mhm. fact it'll be quite handy in a way really, you know it's handy to live on the on your right next to work in a way cos you don't have to worry about Getting there. getting there so much do you? It'd be quite nice for me to be able to pop into town and get a bit of meat or something Handy, really. And it's not far from town. Very handy. You can go in for a drink. It's a little walk but it's not that far is it? Not very far at all. Top Street and you Yeah. cross the main road and you You're there. and you're like the horse fair I said if you go for a drink you don't have to worry about getting home. No. Yeah I know we'd still go up the Clickers sometimes but we don't have to go all the time do we? We're not there yet are we? Mm. lot of things. It's going well. You and Andy? Oh yeah. Where did you meet him? When you went to Russia. Suppose you know that song well as well? Sorry? Suppose you know that tune well as well. I wrote it. You wrote it did you? Mm. Sing it then. not now. When I fill a book in about recordings and that how do you put have you got a regional accent? You have. Mm I'm aware I have. And so have you. Not really. Local I suppose I put Well haven't really got much of an accent at all have I? No. Think we'll have to put down yes though when we talk to mum. Yes. But not this region. No. You have to put the the regional accents acc accent if they have one. Ah. Like er Liverpudlian or Get No it I won't see . cos he comes back next Friday and we're on lates so he's on earlies so Yeah, suppose We shan't be seeing him. Never mind. Rita? Essex isn't she? that sort of Yeah, Essex isn't she comes from London doesn't she? Romford yeah. So she's got a bit of an accent in in a way hasn't she? Oh she definitely has. Ann has n't. No. Frank? Frank and Barbara. Frank's London isn't he? Yeah yeah. Definitely. Bob? Bob's Notting Mm yeah. Not though is he? No but he has got a bit of an accent. Yeah. Says lots of words that I don't use. Get old Sonny and George. I won't though cos we hardly see them. No. Which is a pity because they are Mm. cos they've both got accents. Sonny is more sort of Norfolk. Norfolkish isn't he? Er and George is Holbeach Yeah. in Lincolnshire. He's got a funny little voice hasn't he? Yeah. yeah. Mild weather. Yeah. Cloudy mild weather's forecast North Gloucester . Why didn't you go in for that? Meteorology. Is that what you call it? Yes. Cos you're quite interested in the weather aren't you? See what it's like Saturday evening when we go to the party. Mm. Whether we're gonna walk, ride or what. Mm. Good walk up there you know, isn't it? Well it's only about as far up there as it is up town. Is it? Oh. Don't think the weather's gonna be too bad. We're usually pretty lucky when when we're on holiday. Aren't we? Mhm. Not that It's just we're going anywhere. I tried to watch that but it wasn't very interesting. So you couldn't get interested in it? No. No. It's a bit I don't know to it. see what it's about. What about it? You don't really know cos you weren't in interested No. I I turned it over in the end. Yeah. I turned it over and that's about Did you have again. Ooh would you ever? Did your teachers used to hit you? No. Oh, would have hit other kids cos you wouldn't have been naughty enough to be hit. I've seen people caned. Saw one one lad was really really sort of well okay he wasn't clever by any stretch of the imagination but he just, was just a you know a sort of no-hoper and he he riled one teacher up very very badly one day cos he didn't do his homework or he was pratting about or he was you know. And he got this he got a ca no it wasn't a cane but it was a quite a big stick. It wasn't a sort of a sort of a thin cane, it was quite a big stick, he whacked him a couple of times across the backside. And he really, and he really did belt him one. You know. Cor but he got him so riled and you know. Wouldn't he have felt it as well. Yeah. Yeah. Mm. He was just a nice teacher. Got on al we got on ever so well with him. I did anyway, I got on with most teachers but but he did, really did give him a a really big, say a big couple of swipes on his backside. Mr Mr had erm a locker. You know he had about half a dozen in there, you know he Chose the one. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah which one you know. Right you're gonna get one of these. Which one do you want sort of thing, you know? Yeah that will, no, maybe not. Maybe this one . Try that one today. Aah! Yeah. No I don't think I was ever caned. No. Good boy. Yeah. Yeah. Too good. One of the goody goodies. Yeah. Goody goody . Just a good boy. I'm a good boy now aren't I? Sometimes. Oh sometimes. Mm Well you never hardly go ever got into trouble at school. No. You were a model pupil. Oh I don't know about model, but no, not a model pupil dear. You always did your homework. I tried. Sometimes it took hours and sometimes it didn't. Depending how much you got. I don't think I, I don't know, well I didn't get caned. I got a swipe or two off Miss . Her with the withered paralyzed arm that she bashed you with because she couldn't clear it and you blooming well could. Yeah . Her arm was like this only ever such a little hand and if you, she used to go and it just sort of reached your earhole when she was walking past you and if you were talking in class she'd go . That's all she could move it really was Just far enough to get your earhole. like that. Yeah. Stop that . Sit still. She a few times . She was a the sewing mistress. And do you know, with this arm it was the right arm as well there was the most beautiful sewing. She used to hold it, she sort of took it in here Yes. and then sew with this hand Yeah. one hand how she And it was beautiful work Yeah. she used to do. Yeah. Really did. she used to call us heathens cos we didn't wear vests. So we would deliberately not wear one even if you did Yeah. if you had to go and try a garment on, you deliberately didn't wear underwear or Oh yeah, yeah just just to annoy Heathens, she used to say. Disgusting! Where is your underwear? But I wear a bra miss, I've got me underwear. Where is your vest and your liberty bodice? You will come to a bad end! You gals. Yes Miss we'd all chant. She used to really get not just sit, you know really silly old bat. And we had Miss who used to wear knickers down to her knees. She used to sit behind her desk like this with her legs open and her knickers used to come down here, pink ones and blue ones. And she used to eat chalk. Eat chalk? Yeah, she was ever so odd. She used to What, lumps of chalk? she used to chew it. Mm and it used to be all around her mouth and she used to have a bit here sort of one of those old ladies who had whiskers on her chin and it'd be all white. We didn't take a lot I mean she was a history teacher so now you know why I didn't learn a lot of history cos all we did was giggle . And if you played up she used to chuck the blackboard rubber at you. She was really dotty. Really was. Absolutely bananas. She always used to sit with her legs open and these bloody knickers right down her knees. Real passion killers like then? Yeah. It's just as well she wore knickers like that the way she was sitting behind her desk. Well sorry if she didn't wear any at all eh dear, eh? Miss but by god she had a good aim, she might have been bloody dotty You got up giggling and laughing the back of the class and whoosh the bloody board rubber come flying across the classroom . Mm and blooming hurts and all . That terrible?what they're gonna do with them? Put them away for life we hope. They ought to. Seem to put them away for a long while but Would you like anything before you go out dear? Mm I don't think so. To abandon me to your friends . Oh here we go again! Don't love you any more heard it all before I know I've abandoned abandoned you all day, most of the day darling and I know. We're on holiday and I'm being left on my own. Cruel cruel hard man. I know. Not stopping you going boozing though is it? Well there's you're quite welcome to come with me if you want to. I don't want to. You don't want to. Well there you are then. If you don't want to you don't want to. Well it's about quarter to seven so I suppose you're soon going to be off. So a little bit of discipline and a clip round the earhole obviously done them good. Oh they don't know half. I was gonna say they discipline hard to discipline's much more Oh we had much more discipline when we were young than they have nowadays and I don't think it does them any harm. No. If my children came home and said to me that they got the cane at school I'd have just said well you must have deserved it. I wouldn't have gone rush I mean some mothers have gone rushing up the school and complained. I said well he must have done something to deserve it. Mm. Otherwise they wouldn't have done it. Jonathan the other two didn't so much. Jonathan did couple of times. He come home with lines and write passages out of this that and the other. Yeah. Well Steven used to tell on him you see. He's been in detention again. Tell-tale. What you tell her for. Huh You telly-tale oh you're too goody goody, you never get . Over exuberant, that's what they put on Jonathan's report, school report. Good for some things. Exuberant. That's what one of his school reports said. Jonathan suffers with an over ab abundance of exuberance. When I were at the parents' evening I said does that mean er he never sits still and he's always tearing about and said well something like that.. Yeah but probably now they'd call it hyperactivity. Probably. I don't think he was, he was just I dunno A lad. Yeah. And I I er and not only that I used to say to teachers well if if they'd ask him about and if he had anything er er and he'd be bored. Mm. why do you Jonathan,St Steven said oh he'd been in detention. Why have you been in detention? Oh I was playing up and they chucked me out the class or something and I had to stay in at dinner time. Said well why were you playing up? I was bored. I tried telling some of the teachers that. He finds the lessons boring so obviously they're gonna mess about. Yeah. If they're bor if you're bored and you can't Bored yeah. So you, you get distracted and do something else Yeah. you shouldn't be doing. And that's a fault in some ways of the teachers. Mm. If the pupils are bored the should make it interesting enough to keep their interest. Yeah. Mm. Yeah I know subjects they're not you can't be interested in all of them. No. Look at them cars. When I was at the garage getting the petrol I give them, signed the cheque and they put the cheque through the cheque machine printing it out and that and er they've got a free offer at the moment. You collect these tokens for collect so many tokens and you get a free Corgi toy. I mean normally I don't bother with the tokens, I mean I Anyway I paid the cheque and I said to Peter I said oh by the way what about me tokens for me for me toy I said if I get a free one of them I can give it to give it to the grandchildren. See, Ricky'd like that I'm sure, little Corgi car I said . He said oh no you don't get them with cheques. Cash sales only. I thought I just spent twenty seven quid on petrol I said And you can't even have a bloody free Dinky car. free couple of vouchers for a new for a Corgi toy. There's a woman in there she said oh give it to him. I said give you a cuddle some time. Mm. I just thought you know I okay it's only a cheque I know but Yeah but it's still twenty seven quid. They don't get many twenty seven pound customers. No. That's what I thought. Fiver or what have you. I think it's I think it's one voucher for fifteen litres. Now what do I have? If I had twenty seven quid's worth at fifty P a litre that's fifty two fifty two? Fifty two litres roughly so if it was one voucher for fifteen that's three innit? And I think it was six vouchers for for a free That's it. free Corgi toy. So all I've got to do is when I run out again fill it up again spending another twenty five quid's worth or so that would have been six and I could have had a free Corgi toy for Ricky for Christmas. Yeah. Or whatever. Yeah. Little present innit? Yeah. Hasn't cost me nothing has it? Or hasn't cost you anything. But next time I shall have to run, take the cash in there. And see see what they say next time. Mm. pays a cheque it was just easier to pay by cheque. And they've got a machine to do it anyway to work it all out, print it all out. Not very fair is it? Oh no. Saying cash I mean it's still cash innit? Would have thought so. big business that. Yeah. Toys. Terrible prices. Bet mum's still got that Oh I don't know. You want to ask her about that. Mm. You could see if anyone's got one at work couldn't you? Yeah. Oh well I'd better go and do the dishes I think. say there's not that many there is there? Only a plate and a few fork, fork and a knife and that. She's done everything else. I must do them now and then it's out of the way cos you and I want to see Emmerdale at seven. Oh yeah. Yeah of course. Don't forget that clock's gone about five minutes slow. Come along dear. Yes, yes. Oh there was couple of nice bums there definitely. Oh I know there was. And then when we finished er finished the game about, I don't know must have been about twenty to eleven when we finished the game there was sandwiches and chips coming out. At that time of night? Well the game had finished you see so they brought supper out. Usually have it half way don't they? Mm sometimes yeah. basket of chips and Oh so you've had bloody supper have you? sl sliced sliced sliced boiled potatoes and some er Huh me sitting here and you've been eating blood supper . sandwiches and french bread and that. It it was about ten to, five to eleven mm Bob said you know cos we went, me Ron Bob went in in Shirley's car and er cos Dave and Tracy they come in their own car because Sarah was not feeling very well so they had . So Tracy went back to the Griff and said oh share in with the supper. What, it was for the team there as well? The, for the A team yeah. Erm as I say it was about ten to five to eleven and Bob said what are you you know what's Ron doing? Chatting up the women probably if I know Ron. Quite enjoying himself . He . Yes he was. Very much so. Yeah I bet he was. Said what you doing and Eyeing up the bums like you. and I said I said to Bob I said well, you know said well hadn't you better get cos Shirley had had a go at Bob first off, before when, when I went in there first thing. Shirley said and don't stay to the end. He said well you've got to stay to the end I mean, but don't stay right to the end, you know sort of Mhm So she'd had a bit of a go at Bob and er And I suppose you were saying I had Ann saying oh leaving me. like I say about ten to eleven, five to eleven said what are you doing then Bob? He said well I'm . Shirley's sort of getting on to you a bit I think we'd better make a move. home and Pardon? I'm going to bed now . Have one more at yours before we you know before you go home sort of thing you know . He said oh I don't know, well what's Ron doing? Ron! What do you want to do? I'm stopping for another. So we stopped for another one. So Bob's gonna be in the in trouble. Du n no. Well I didn't ask when he come in the door up there where the hell have you been? With me on me own for five hours. And I had John Smith bitter. Oh well you've quite enjoyed that and you've had a few of them by the smell of you. Smell like a bloody brewery. Told you, that's not a bad little pub is it? What the ? It's a goldmine. Absolute goldmine. Told you that and you said yuk. I don't mind it in there. It's years since I've been in there. Must be about three or four years since I've been in there . Not bad is it? Oh no. It's a nice pub. say that but er they've extended it Yeah I know. down the back and out the back there for darts and that. I know. I know and a little stage. I've seen yeah I have. round the corner a bit Well maybe, maybe they maybe they change it round when there there's something on there and there's no darts on or that. Mm yeah probably. Because erm because er Sue Mm. thing and her dad's got a country and western music I mean he, they go all over the bloody place. But we we were in there one night and he, he was playing. They had country and western night on there, now I think I was doing nowt one Saturday night and Sue and Steven were going to hear her dad. Mm. Why don't you come with us for an hour or so? Mum'll be there after bingo at half past nine. Mm. I was going to bingo and I said and I said to her well we'll go and pick Sue's mother up and we'll pick you up and all and she went the Empire, I went the Corn Exchange but that's beside the point. Yeah. Yeah. And picked us up and I went in there and I were yeah half past eleven time. I mean it was a bit loud because it was live music I suppose but it wasn't a bad night . got lively. I say it was say it was about three, four years since I've been in there so Oh they'd extended it, they extended it round the back and Yeah. Well I was, it was round the back where Oh it he stood with erm the It's probably where they've got the dartboard and that in there. Probably change it round. Yeah there is. And there was a bit of there's a bit of floor in front of it. And we were dancing on that bit you see. Oh did you? There weren't a lot of room but you don't care do you? When you've Mm little dance and at ten o'clock at night and pub was packed. People singing with the the group. Yeah he plays guitar and sings Sue's dad does. Stewie in The Loco well huh You know everybody. Well not everybody but Biggest part. Knew the landlord . Who I hadn't seen for goodness knows how long. Hallo Stewie, how are you mate! Bloody hell's that? Knew his face and I can't remember his damn name. Gary Might even have had my Steven in wouldn't have known him. Yeah, he would. How do you know? Because there wasn't a tall slim ginger-haired chap in I did think it, well I did think it was a possibility but I mean Probably his mother and father her mother and father had been in there anyway. there's a little boy there'd be no chance of him going in there anyway. Oh no, course not. Course not. So I'm going soft in the her mum and dad'll probably be in. That's their regular if they were having a country and western they would ask him to do it because he's What's his what's her mum and dad look like? He's big. He's a, such a big fella. Fat. Sue's mum's little and fat, nearly as tall as she's broad . But dad's a Maybe they were in the lounge perhaps. bigger I mean he he he's at least as tall as you if not bigger and er also Sort of Tom size? Yeah. And she's about the same size round but about five foot two.. Well I didn't see anybody Sue's a big girl. She's as tall as me and weighs nearly Mm. she must weight fourteen, fifteen stone I should think. Sue's big Well then I certainly didn't see anybody in there looking like that. I must admit. Oh she usually goes after bingo. They'll probably be in all night and she's just walked up from the bingo and toddle in there. No I didn't see anybody looking like that so I don't know. I wouldn't think they'd be in the lounge. They could be but I wouldn't have thought so. Thursday night anyway I wouldn't, does she go to the Empire Well I don't really know do I? Empire. Do they have it Wednesday night bingo? Thursday night don't they, bingo? Is it Thursday night? No oh I don't know . Thursday night not at the Empire. Wednesday night the Empire, Friday night . Thursday night Oh well she wouldn't be there after the bingo then would she? Probably went to I know that she does go . She there most of the evening and she goes to bingo and Yeah. Cos they live down round near Tina's but not like Tina's house, before that off Allard Avenue round the back of Allard Avenue. Sherwood is it? Sherwood, yeah Sherwood Avenue . Yeah. Yeah they live up yeah. So it's not that far for The Loco really. No just a short walk. It's sort of their local type of thing. anyway but Well Ann is going to retire. I suppose you're gonna have a bottle and a fag. Mind you, the smell of you I think you've had sufficient bottles but well Told you not to drink much. I did n't. Ooh. Perhaps I'd better stop up then. Well I tried not to, but What? Bob said do you want a drink and Ron said do you want a drink and I said to Ron do you want a drink Ron and everyone said do you want a drink and You had quite a few. No, not that many. But er But I might as well go to bed. probably erm But I might as well go to bed? And you do realize that this conversation is on a tape recorder? Well I don't mind. if it is . That's what they want. Natural conversations so Not sure how natural though I'll have a can of beer and then I'll probably go to bed. We haven't got any left. I drunk them. They've gone have they? Mhm. Oh. I'd better have a bottle then. I drunk them as well. Oh you drunk them as well? Oh. ah oh now what am I gonna do? Without. I'm without. Crafty devil. Put them round the corner where where I didn't know where they were. Falling over now. No I'm not. Oh that young couple next door ah! Yeah? They been at it, have they been at it again? Oh I wish you'd have been at home, I'd have gone round there. What've they been up to now then? Oh god! She's been screaming. He's been reckon she must have locked herself up in the dark. And the only place with a lock on is the bathroom and I reckon they'll blooming knock the blooming door down by the sound of it. Gawd. She was screaming, he was swearing. Running up and down the stairs. What time was this? Quarter to ten till about half past ten. Or half an hour till half past ten Well that wouldn't please them next door would it? No. Coo. And and really I mean you can't I'm I'm s I'm saying that you, you can't interfere but by god I'd long for someone to come in and interfere. I really would have done. And er er I I could never understand why people that obviously could hear what went on and pretended they never. I know you don't wanna get involved Mm. and this that and the other but people must have heard what went on and and you know the next morning they'd see a black eye and just carry out a normal conversation as though and you know they hadn't heard it all and Yeah. ooh have you had a fall or something? Then you know I mean they must have what was going on oh aye they just completely ignore it. Mm. I'd be walking round if I could get around. Mm. It were just you know oh it's a nice morning when I'm hanging the washing out as though everything was wonderful you know Yeah. normal. Yes. Ooh I thought he was going to, ooh I felt made me go cold and I I thought if, if I hadn't been here on my own I'd have been very tempted to go round and and say is there anything I can do. Or I'd have called the police I think. I weren't sure what I'd have done but Bad as that? Oh . He was a calling her effing this, swearing oh it was dreadful. She was screaming and you could hear her crying. Then you hear, she pounded up the bloody stairs and he was after her and I reckon well the only room with a lock As you say is the bathroom. is the bathroom, so she must have been in there cos he's hammering on the door and bashing it and kicking it. Bloody hell of a row. Or whether she opened it or whether she was in the front bedroom with something behind the door I dunno but That's his and she run back down the stairs and the front door was opening and banging and shutting, whether she run outside or what I don't know what happened, the dog was bloody barking. Oh lord. Well it's a wonder Ann and Rita haven't done something about it. Well I say it's er amazing they've not said, said something And they had company as well there's a car there, blue car. Who Ann and Rita or? Or Ann and Rita. I don't know. Sally innit? I don't know who it was. It was Sally if it was a blue e , blue cavalier. T D O something something something. Sally can't drive so it must be some Can't she? Her latest beau I should think, I don't know. Maybe. Maybe maybe. But it was I mean I could hear it over the telly. I know I don't have the telly on full blast but I could hear it Mm. above the telly. When I first heard the first noise I thought what the bloody hell's that and I turned the sound down. Yeah. Thought bloody hell, put it back up but you could, it was really distressing me cos You knew what was possibly going on. Yeah. Mm. A woman and that don't s I mean if you're having just an argument it's raised voices but a woman doesn't scream and cry like that unless Unless there's something really something awful going on. Mm. I mean Ann and Rita reckon they're not married or anything but why the hell does she stay with him then? She's not got a bloody Well there you go I mean she's got no children. They're only young. It's her house. Isn't his. He couldn't, she bought it without, with her father and Mm. and he come and lived with her in it. Bloody hell. I know I mean I stayed with him but I had three kids. Gonna say you're you're I had three kids, where could I go with them? Mm. Mm. If I'd have been on me own I mean that's all I was waiting for, mine to grow up so I could clear off. Yeah. If I'd have been on me own I wouldn't have stopped bloody long. I mean even if she walks out he doesn't, no court in the land would give him the house if it's hers. evicted and then she could come back again. Mm. Well if she went to the police they'd chuck him out. He has no legal rights to the property. It's in her name, she's, her father's helping her paid the deposit or something and she clears the mortgage she has no right, he has no right to it all if she went to the police. They'd just turf him out wouldn't they? Mm. Well why stay in a relationship like that? Don't understand it. Certainly a bit rough, a bit hard. Went quiet about half past ten so whether he buggered off out or what I don't know. Mm maybe. Certainly the front door was opening and banging and shutting. Say I'm surprised Ann and Rita haven't sort of didn't Well banging on the wall probably with all the other banging and May maybe. Maybe. They part of the banging. So much bloody banging going on. Probably part of the banging Ann and Rita. And the people on this side you don't know how they were reacting as well. Say, they was a quite young couple. We don't hear them that much do we? Mornings is the time I hear them most. Cos they go out to work at half past eight and you hear them between half past seven and half past eight There you are I've made you a cup of tea. Thank you dear. Very kind of you. Are you sure you don't want any breakfast? No. You want nothing at all? No. You'll be hungry. Eh? What do you mean good? Don't be silly. What's the point in getting really hungry. Had me tea last night and the beer and few sandwiches last night. How would you like that? Order's not completed you've got to stay till it is. Up yours mate. I'm going home. Ten o'clock and that's it. Or whatever. Not many would. Very rare. Not often. Oh my god! I had that yesterday. What's our post code? P E fourteen seven P G. They was looking for it on a list. Mm. Said I know it's P fourteen, I don't know the rest of it. And he looked on a list he had and he put seven something. Seven P G. I can always remember it. Well you're good at remembering numbers. Well yeah but I just think P E fourteen, half of fourteen is seven and then T. G. Yes darling. So that's how I remember it. Funny innit? Yes very strange but you are strange. I know yes. Very strange, yeah, very strange. You always remember numbers. Don't you? Car numbers and telephone numbers and Car numbers I remember more by the letters than the numbers. Because there are s specific set numbers. Once I see When they come round at work and says this car blocked in I say oh go and ask Stuart he'll probably know. Give you a blooming it's a blue something or other and this is the number. Go and ask . I said go and Stuart or Bill they, they know most of them. I wouldn't know one from another. associated the letters with the car and the letters with the car go together. And then the numbers, the numbers I don't remember that well. Some of them I do. now with them changing the the changeover cos they always used to be the letters followed by the numbers. Now they've got the initial letter followed by the number then the letters. Rather than so As I say you associate the car and the number together. I don't. It would probably throw me completely If you it would throw me completely if you put, if you changed some of the number plates over. If you put Tina's number plate on another car and visa versa that would throw, I I'd probably look at it and think you know, oh somebody's got a new car or that looks familiar but it's not the right car so I wouldn't think about it. Even though I know Tina's is C two one one Y C L if it was on a different car I'd probably look at it and think Oh that's not right. it's not right, it's not Tina's. And so I wouldn't think that that I probably Just a just a trait of personality. I wonder how she is if she's at work or at home. Don't really don't really care to tell you the truth in a way but Oh that's nice. Well no I care I care if Tina's not well and hope she gets better soon but I don't care if You don't care about work getting in a muddle I don't care about work and them being in a muddle, no not at all. Let them get on with it. That's not very nice. It is. No it isn't. Well it is. Why isn't it? Cos it isn't. Well if a lot of others were off we'd have to cope somehow wouldn't we? So there you go. Just cos we're off. And possibly Tina and that is off so they'll just have to struggle on as if we were there and a lot of others were off. Don't you agree? Yes darling. Right. So what's on the agenda for today? Well you know very well. We are going shopping. Where are we going shopping? Whenever you're ready to take me shopping. But where are we going shopping? Well probably Wisbech. No point in going to Lynn if we're going to mum's. No but where? Wherever you wish to take me. Where would Ann want to go? I don't mind. Haven't got a lot of choice. I don't like Tescos at Wisbech cos it's . Right. So it's Gateway Gateway or blooming Rainbow. Suppose we could go down the Rainbow and have a look at that microwave. But I'll have to go into town first. Cos I don't think they'll give me the shopping for nothing and there's no bank down Rainbow. Well there is, a Co-op bank but I don't think they'll let me have some money out of it. Mm. Maybe not. And seeing as I haven't got an account with them I don't think they'll say well you can have some anyway. No. No. And then we're going into town? Well we've got to go into town Got to see the estate agents and see if we can view something today. Mm other ones that we are definitely interested in and underneath the ones that we are not so interested in. Yeah there's one down, that one down Elizabeth Terrace. I was just trying to figure out which one it is. Hundred and twenty. I don't know if that isn't erm what they call it who died not long ago? Hazel's mum's. Cos perhaps the dad's moved out or you know . Quite close to her. Oh what was her name? Old Hazel's mother. Hazel's mother. The little old lady who went to Salvation Army, always wearing a little hat. Oh what was her name? Cos you know her as well. And I said oh my god she's died and you said oh I know her. What used to go to the Salvation Army? She was to Salvation Army. Ever so small little lady. or something. I can remember her kids and I can't remember her name. Terrible. Hazel and Terry, mother-in-law's brother Terry fire officer at Wisbech, it's his mother-in-law laws. And she died not more than a few months ago. Oh it's awful. It's dreadful I mean quite fond of her. Just trying to think which one it was anyway . I think it's her house. Yeah but I'm trying think which one it is. Cos I say I know that I know Elizabeth Terrace well. Yeah I know cos I think you called on her cos you knew her. When she died you said oh I know her well . Hundred and twenty. Let's go and have a look. Oh it's in here somewhere innit? I put a ring round it so I know Oh yeah here we are, hundred and twenty. Ah the one one in from the end. Yeah, I know the one now. One in from the end. I think that is her house. Mind she had a husband but should think he living with one of the kids. Can't think who lived there now. God, cos I used to call on that one. perhaps. The only trouble down Elizabeth Terrace parking. That's the only trouble. The only consolation if the college. if that was a possibility or if that became a possibility mum only live round the corner. Not that far away is she? Few hundred yards. She drives. And I could leave the car in her driveway. Then there's the college. Lot of people park in the college. Don't they? So that is a possi I was just wondering which one it was cos I say I know some of them are a bit you know Yeah. a bit dodgy. I knew there there they had a lot of trouble with one of them but nearer Helen's end. There was one there that was empty and for a long long while. The builders started building, knocking it about And it fell to bits. And then it and then, no the ran out of money. The builder ran out of money and the it was just a shell. You know, nothing in it. No windows no doors no nothing er you know, completely gutted it to make it all, to renovate it and then ran out of money and then it just stood there completely empty. And can you imagine a house in the open air in winter? Do it a lot of good would it? It wouldn't do it a lot of good, no exactly. Woodwork and exactly. and even the brickwork. No. damp and If you get me back to mum's for about three o'clock time at the latest to take her to Osborne House. Well that's what she's that's what she's she's, she just sort of she didn't mean it but No it it was her thought that we were Yeah cos I mean you'd probably run her back, rather than her biking. As I say I mean we, if we could make an appointment say three fifteen or three thirty to see Sefton Avenue. Cos we'd be up there anyway. Yeah. Wouldn't we? Before it gets dark and you couldn't see anything anyway. Oh we'd have to go and have a look in the light. Well that's it. Definitely. cos you can't see a lot. Cos there won't be electricity on. Anyway you wanna have a good look round seriously consider it. Cos I think now we haven't heard from Mr and I think that means he's not prepared to take it so he's not bothered about coming. Yeah? Is that the way you're reading it? That's the way I'm reading it. I'm Ignore it cos the man might just leave him in there renting it until or when forever it goes up. But we can't afford it to go up. I'm disappointed that he's not been back Yeah I am. to discuss it. Yeah I am. And to put the position to him. Look the market's not very good I know but we're sitting tenants. We're quite happy to take it on. We'd like to take it on. If we leave have you got another tenant to come in? You're gonna lose two hundred and fifty pound a month. And a good two hundred and fifty pound a month. Exactly. You know, not one that he has any hassle in getting. That's it. He don't have to keep calling and wandering around after us. But I'm not prepared to go on renting it. No no. As you say three thousand pound a year that could be paid off a place of our own is is just I mean if I have to rent it well I'll have to rent one. If we can't get anything else and we can't afford anything else we've just got to go on paying it but But when there's so much other as I say you look at I mean this is two fifty. You look here in the paper and see how much they are. Yeah I know. Some of them are terrible. You're talking two sixty, two eighty. I know. Three hundred. To let. Three seventy. No! Detached four bedroomed house admittedly. Granary. Two b two two bed That's the one I fancy. If I went anywhere into another flat, I'd quite fancy going into Two bed second floor self-contained flat. Living room kitchen bathroom twelve months two seventy five unfurnished. Mm I know. Armada Close two eighty. Norfolk Street two eighty. Mm I wouldn't I wouldn't go in to Armada Close I don't think. That's furnished. Six months. Two eighty. Yeah well you see, furnished you see they can charge extra. Norfolk Street self-contained principally first floor flat, two bedrooms furnished two eighty. I wouldn't want a furnished one now. No, of course not. But as I say I know they are expensive. Which is why I Two sixty two eighty which is the same price as which, which is why now er that Rose and Jean when they considered it. Mum said how about renting one in Wisbech but I said well if she can't afford a mortgage you can't afford to rent one. Not anything that's worth living in. No. fifty quid a week ones are er forty pound a week and so on. You gets what you pay for which nowadays isn't a lot, not for that money. You know when I asked, was gonna have er on Lynn Road there what was that fifty a fifty a week? I mean it was Fifty or fifty five weren't it? it was clean but that's about all you could say. Is that the one Ann is in now? Or in that area. I don't know where Ann is. No I think she's down Victoria Road somewhere. She won't tell anybody. But I think she lives somewhere down Victoria Road. I don't know. She's only in a bedsit. Yeah. But I mean you see her up town though. I know. That's cos she's lonely and she just wanders about. She gets up don't want to stay in the bedsit. One room she she shares a bathroom and kitchen. She just goes for a walk. I mean she's seeing people and Yeah but I mean the times I've seen her it's been this end of town rather than that end of town. Which has made, which which just makes me think I don't really, I just presume she lives down Victoria Road somewhere but I don't really know. And she walks to work. She couldn't do any other. She hasn't got a vehicle, she can't afford one. No no. But that just makes me think why, that's what makes me think she's living . She could be. But that weren't a bedsitter that I was in . Shared bathroom but I No but yeah but it was a kitchen and bedroom and living room. They're only tiny like an alcove bedroom but Oh yeah I've been in one of them. You know I've seen them. I mean it was the only one with a with its own kitchen. The one that I was gonna have. Yeah. This was right up the top and there were a tiny attic bedroom thing was made into a not very salubrious but it had a cooker and a sink. Yeah. And as I say that was fifty or something a week and it wasn't wasn't worth it really. No. Furniture wasn't that posh but then er but the only thing I thought about it was safe and it was clean. Needed a bit of personalizing but it was it was old-fashioned furniture but it was polished. It was clean. Had a reasonable carpet on the floor and, and so on. Mm. But it wasn't worth fifty pound a week. Definitely not. But that's what they're going for though isn't it? If they can get them for that people do . People are desperate to buy and they'll have whatever and they have to pay. Yeah. When you think that one what was thirty three thousand two hundred and sixty a month or something wasn't it? Well that's gonna be about two hundred and forty, two hundred and fifty a month for that one down . Cos thirty three worked out two sixty didn't it? Oh the mortgage you mean? Mortgage. So you can say two hundred and fifty pound a month to buy a place. Oh yeah. And yet they want two eighty to rent one. Seems quite ridiculous. Well that's if you're prepared to buy a flat. That's the only thing isn't it? If you're prepared to buy a flat. Yeah but at least you've got, actually got the property haven't you? You're not just paying somebody else to have a Cos if you're moving if you can't sell it you can always rent it again. Which is what a lot of people are doing houses especially. They buy a house cos they've had a child or something. They can't afford to they can't sell that one so they rent that out which pays the mortgage for it and start again on another mortgage. You've got to be a bit careful when you're renting out though. Oh yes. Got to be careful of your tenants. pay. Tenants. That's why it's best to go through an agency or er something like White and Eddies because they have people that collect them and they have people who have to take up references and Yeah but not only that but I mean if you And they have they have proper leases. I mean after that they're out and Yeah . well I mean all, all well it counts towards your income as well. Oh yeah I know. Oh yeah income tax on it. Counts counts towards your income. But a lot of people are doing it. Mm. Oh I know. Well there's for one. sell Lot of people are doing it because they just can't well circumstances. It's either the job or something means they've gotta go away or they can't afford, they can't sell them so they I don't know if that would make your income different if you were still paying a mortgage . Even though your, all the money Think you were getting in was getting paid out again? I think you'll find it counts towards your income. So I mean if you had a job Paying them more tax. You, you got a job say you're earning But I think the expenses when you're earning ten thousand a year. And you're going, you're getting two hundred and fifty pound a month as well in rent Yeah but you, you'd be able to claim expenses. I think so, yeah. You wouldn't pay the whole of it taxable if it was you know you would claim expenses for one thing and another. Oh I don't know but I mean I wouldn't have thought so. Yeah. Otherwise probably that's why they are dear because they have to do things like that. That's probably why they're the price they are, two eighty. That's it. Because people take Pay fifty and thirty quid a week more is a bloody what they get stopped off them. and people have taken out big mortgages like Tina. And to pay off the mortgage they've got to charge so much I mean Tina's got that little house . I mean now you'd get it two hundred and fi , I mean Tina pays two hundred and forty eight er pound a week, a month. Three hundred and forty eight pound a month mortgage on that little house. Yeah. I mean that was bloody thirty nine thousand, or was it forty one when she had it. It was I know. forty one I think. I mean now they're going for thirty two. We can afford one like that. Yeah we could isn't it? Mm. They don't sell now. Not selling at all. There's a few renting now cos they can't sell them. So It's a nice enough little house but I'm not awfully keen on it are you? I don't like the, I don't like the bedroom No I don't situation for one. If it had a door and a wall and You're just straight upstairs and you fall into bed. Mm. Handy I suppose but In some respects but I mean it just doesn't I mean in a way I suppose well with Tina being a non smoker and Wiggie being a non smoker It's not so bad. isn't so bad but, I mean if you're like us and I mean the smoke's just That's it. That's why Tina doesn't like people smoking in her house because it gets into her bedroom. Yes. Exactly. The smoke would just rise straight up and Yeah. straight up into the bedroom. I mean she doesn't smoke anyway so I mean you know She doesn't like people smoking in her house. Because she says I don't want my bedroom smelling of smoke, her sheets and everything else. She would do Mind you they have done a bit more to it since Wiggie's been there in as much as she's had a big curtain put across Oh yeah. Across the top of the stairs like or All the way across. Because Steve couldn't sleep. Because of the light in that little Because it's light. See you'd even the patio door light went Straight upstairs. straight upstairs. And that Because he's, and then skylight . Mm yeah. skylight . He's had a blind put up a special blind that leads straight across the fanlight. And she's had curtains big track put across so that sh She can shut it off. she can shut it right off. She couldn't, she just wasn't sleeping. Said was broad daylight. Mhm. She said oh he you know we've had all that done. Tracked across the ceiling so that shut the off. She said he just couldn't sleep in there. With the light. With all the lights and daylight and sunshine through the bloody thing and It was alright once he got off but he had a job getting off when it was Mm mm. as I say when it was sunlight shining through the bloody thing on his face. Mm they've had a special, they had a skylight blind made . Mm mm. They couldn't have an ordinary one cos it would hang down. Has to be on a runners on the side as well otherwise it would just fall down. Side yeah so it fall Yeah. Mm. It's got a, you know like a frame what you put in along. Like a venetian blind in a way . Mm. Or a straight down blind but at an angle but er but on runners to hold, yeah. But it's got runners to hold the side in you see? Yeah. I mean but Steven would but Do they owe the building society and erm the building society. Yeah. They'll have to pay another mortgage as well. Yeah but on the yeah but I mean if she sold it for thirty two she'd still owe them nine thousand wouldn't she? Well she must have paid a bit off. She's been in there about three years. Yeah. Well say she owes them nine thousand anyway. Yeah. But then er if they wanted another mortgage it would be That would be added to it you see. They'd probably have a fifty thousand pound mortgage to pay off the the existing mortgage on that one and the balance. I mean they can afford it between them. Well I don't know, I mean Steve must pay about eighty pounds a bloody week. Oh yeah of course Steven and his maintenance. Maintenance. Maintenance and one thing and another. Yeah. Yeah that would cut it down wouldn't it?on their own you can say they'd be able to afford it but if you consider the outgoings as well eighty pound a Mind you saying that, three hundred fifty pound a month to buy a bigger mortgage anyway. Nowadays. For the interest rate yeah, but it would only buy the same sort of mortgage that Tina's got on it already. Yeah well that's what I mean. They could have bought, afford a Yeah. a a better property for about forty four thousand or whatever for the same money. Cos that's how it's worked out. No cos she still owes, if she sold it she'd still owe the balance between the selling price and Yeah so she's got to buy a cheaper one and that would be added to it. That would be added to it you see. Mm and just his wages how much extra they could afford. That's it. I know Steven would like . Mm. He'd like one with a spare bedroom so the children can come and stop. I mean Tina's worried now, she's got his mother coming for christmas for a fortnight. Don't know where the hell she'll sleep, she's got to sleep in the living room. Mm. But that's about fifty isn't it? Fifty two probably get the fifty. As I say you're looking at a Hefty mortgage. Tina reckons out of her wages she's got ninety , ninety six pound a week out of her wages just for mortgage and Expenses. expenses. That's gone before she starts. And then out of Wiggie's he's got Seventy five I think he pays. It's a lot of money gone before you've even Mhm before you even start. Mm. Depends what you want most don't it I suppose? Mm mm. That's true. She'd like to change the car. I mean she never liked that car. Ever. She had a nice car before Chris made her have that more or less. She didn't want it. She hated it at first, she wouldn't drive it. Noisy and clumsy, she didn't like it at all. She never has really. It's not it's not a bad car is it? She doesn't like it. Never been happy with it. Never. It was Chris's idea to have the diesel one and that model. He talked her into it. Yeah. But she hated it at first. She'd do anything rather than drive it at first. I don't know what she had before but it was a Mm. Mind you it was quite old. I think it was a car that she'd had for was well looked after her dad used to see to it for her but it was she'd had it for some years and she was always poodling about in you see. And it was her second car that she'd ever had sort of thing. Mm. She'd had it five or six years or something like that. You know, think it was about ten year old when she got rid of it. Something like that. Yeah. But, say it was a lovely little car really. And she hated that. Mm. Times she used to go really hate it. Yeah if that one, that Elizabeth Terrace one is, is the one I think it is which is the one fairly near the end in that in that bottom, bottom row I think the live in the first one, they still live in the first one on the corner. I'm not sure if they've moved actually now. They may have done. Got a funny feeling they have now. But Who's that? Paper man. Bloody hell. Morning. Did somebody kick you out of bed this morning Brian? Thank you very much. Thankyou. Bubye. Thought somebody must have kicked him out of bed this morning. Only half half past ten. quarter past ten. That ain't bad. Got the time to have a quick look at the paper now haven't we? Yeah. The Standard? I don't mind. Oh mind at all And if we make an appointment to view some places and then we'll know what time we've got to doing the shopping and fit it in round taking mum. Seeing mum. something erm next week. So you don't fancy this afternoon? In the morning. Oh yeah well yeah I mean if if they if Cos as I say if we did see Sefton Avenue or New Drove today. If there's nothing available. That's what I meant. Oh yeah, there's plenty of time. I don't really want to go on a Saturday. Saturday afternoons with mum. Saturday afternoons with Helen. well I wouldn't be absolutely if, if I had to go out then I'd have to go out. Then there's always Saturday morning see Helen but then Stuart likes to sleep in. But no I think Saturday's out really. It's not a day for viewing houses. We could go out Sunday? And mum could come as well. I don't know whether they work Oh yes. People at work all the week don't they? Yes. Gets dark in the evenings then then then definitely. That's the only time you can view a property. I mean unless somebody's living in it you can't go in the evenings in the winter can you? And I don't fancy a house that somebody's actually living in. Cos then you've got ta wait while they Yeah. And it can all fall through because theirs is falling through or they can't get out when you want and that can go on for Can it not? Yeah. Sometimes it just can't be helped cos there's nothing in your price range you know that you like that isn't empty but I would prefer an empty property so that when we decide and then whatever just Certainly if we'd see something that would do this afternoon, or New Drove today, that's fine. No problem. Two of them at New Drove are downstairs and one is an upstairs. The one upstairs, because it hasn't got a bay window Yes. is larger. The upstairs one is slightly larger. The upstairs one's larger? number seven which is an upstairs one hasn't got any bay windows. It is larger than the two five and six that are downstairs. Who's selling that one? Well one's Cornerstone. One's Cornerstone So one's Cornerstone and two are the other Two are Hansard Yeah. I think it's Cornerstone one that's the larger of the two, the three. Six seven. Hansard. Hansard. They're doing five and seven so they've got one above each other. So they've got one one's doing two and one's doing one. One's doing five and seven which is this is for two and one's doing six which is this one. Yeah. Seven is definitely slightly bigger than six and five. I checked it out. The lounge is fourteen by ten. The bedroom is thirteen nine by nine instead of eleven by eight. That kitchen's thirteen by five, that totals eleven by seven. Neither here nor there is it? No. None of it's much difference. It's only a diff er it's a matter of two feet here and Yes. But then I don't mind . I don't mind living upstairs or on the ground. Well I mean if they've got the key to both might haven't decided on both of them you might as well go and see them. Yeah. Both of them. See which one you like the best or if you like them at all. But as it's got that financial package That's Cornerstone? Yeah. Don't know whether the same applies to the other two. it. The financial package . With Cornerstone? Cornerstone. Doesn't actually say that in Pantiles No Oh. Just have to ask . Yeah. But actually the one at Cornerstone is fifty pound cheaper than the both of them at Hansard. It is! Fifty pound. One's nine nine fifty and one's nine nine five, yeah. So it's forty five pound different. Well that's a good way, if you think about it he's got, he's got four flats there hasn't he? Oh yeah. Four flats at thirty thousand. That's a hundred and twenty thousand for two houses. They could be sixty thousand apiece. Yeah. Whereas if he had, if he sold them as separate houses he'd probably get forty thousand apiece. Yeah that's just Yeah. Forty five thousand even apiece. Yeah. But he's making the money by selling them as flats. Yeah. The only difference is he's had a few thousand extra because it's got two kitchens and two bathrooms. partitions and Yeah true he's had that yeah extra fittings. But apart from that oh an extra bath instead of the other bedroom Yeah. Yeah. and erm another kitchen instead of a dining room or something and that's the only difference. Say three four thousand probably. For the extra bits and pieces that's all. Yeah. I don't know how many of them there are. Whether they only had four flats or whether there's a flat on another block and another block of fours down the road. I mean I don't know. Only assume there's you've got that one block. Well there might be four blocks of four or I du n no. No I don't think so. Not enough space for them. No I don't know. I mean you know the area better than me. Unless they've knocked them garages down or something I've no idea . I know them council houses aren't usually but I mean I can't visualize how much land there is. I only know that by going to school and Yeah. where they are. Yeah. Probably should have gone the other way into town but that Eh? Neither here nor there. Well you could have gone sort of like round the Rainbow and that way on. That's what I meant. the bypass that end of town would have been perhaps a little bit clearer. If you look at the first it might help you to decide whether you like That's it. Whether you wanna go and see it. Whether you wanna go and see them or not. Whether you like the positions. I mean we know where Sefton Avenue is and we know that's Well we know where it is. a nice house. Well we don't know really. We haven't seen it have we? Well I mean I mean Yeah but we haven't actually looked ins No but I mean I know which house it is with that one, and you do don't you? I think so yes. Well I think so as well. But it would be nice just to go and have a quick check. Oh I think, just to make sure that Just to make sure I like it. Or it is the house that we're thinking about. We think it is. You may not like it. I said as soon as I see it in the paper oh that looks nice. Where's that? I mean not sure. is it? Or is this the one round the other end? It's that one. It's up here. That one there right on the corner yeah? Yes. That's it. I thought there was a separate but it's not, no it's not is it? Think it is. It's an older property. Got the double glazing. Alright. Looks nice. Nice house though isn't it? Yeah it's an older, more solid house. You know sometimes I like as I say they've got Yeah. Yeah Yeah true. Very true. they've got erm Very true. Yeah it's a nice house. And this is a back, the back door Oh I see. Yeah. this one because you, there's the back view look I mean that's that's a back door isn't it? So you have the downstairs back and the the front stairs go up to the can't actually see That's definitely the back door. There's a parking space as well. Oh yeah it says allotted parking space. We have made him an offer but he's not very keen. I don't think, I don't think he will. He's not like that. It looks as if he's not very keen on the price we want to pay. He said he knows the market's low and he'd rather wait. But then we wouldn't be able to afford it if the market goes up and That's right. same time . If it's on, if it's on the market for a long while. He can have it on the market for a year or so. Yeah. And he's and he's He's got you there and Well at the moment he's got us Well that's it. I mean we're paying two hundred and fifty pound a month so at least he's getting that coming in. But then you can really have a mortgage for that. and the thing is as well No. But at the moment he's well he's not come back to us with any answer from our offer at all so we're we're presuming that means no so we thought we'd better start looking. Oh and if you're paying that kind of money you could afford a mortgage couldn't you? That's it. Thereabouts anyway. Yeah it's it's not much more. And Stuart's been and enquired and it wouldn't be much more for a small property. When the market lifts then you'd . That's it. There's not a lot more in here is there? There's a bedroom, it's very They don't make them any more do they? No. They call this the bedroom do they, or ? Yeah. I mean it's quite a good This bedroom's got the bay window. They've got security locks same as ours. Security locks like like we've like we've got at home. Yes. Yeah. can't you? Quite nice . Mm. Don't think No. Quite like the ceilings. They're different aren't they? Yeah, mm. Quite pretty. You've got erm point behind where you could Mm. In burgundy. I don't know what other colours they had . But it's reasonably good quality. There's an airing cupboard Probably got a dead body in there. I watch too many mysteries don't I? Cooker goes in there and the washing machine in there. Yeah. Nowhere for a fridge. Well you'd have to have it sticking out round. This is a bit silly isn't it? Not having any room for a fridge anywhere. The cooker would have go in there and the washing machine in there. Washing machine in there. No fridge. No he hasn't thought about it very well has he? I'm afraid it would have to be sticking out. Is it, is it a tall fridge? Or is it just an ordinary worktop one? No just an ordinary fridge. There isn't a fridge. Well there will be . Just an ordinary one. what the other ones are like. Unless you, unless you get the fridge in the cupboard. Oh this is just exactly the same only the other way round. Same, the same but opposite. Yeah. in the cupboard Oh yeah. Oh that's It hasn't got a sink in this one. It hasn't got a toilet either. Or toilet. It's all been Er actually it has been broken into, this one. Oh no. We looked at it outside and and the window It looks like it yeah. at the back there is broken. somebody's been helping themselves. fire alarms keep though don't they? Number seven. This is the . ? Yeah. Yeah you see your washing machine. Cooker that Oh I see. This is different isn't it? Yeah. Got a bit more space. Yeah. See you could have your cooker one side and your washing machine and fridge, washing machine under there and fridge there. So what you've achieved is this piece over the stairs. Yeah. Mm. I said the one upstairs was bigger. Yes. You said it was bigger didn't you? Yeah. I was reading the things and I said it was a bigger upstairs is, are bigger than the downstairs. It's better cos the other one's a little bit of an alley isn't it, the kitchen? Yeah. Yeah. It's quite pleasant that is. Yeah you see it's bigger cos the bedroom is a bigger bed bigger room altogether. Goodness. What a difference. Oh there is a difference. No this is the living room. Yeah. This is the living room here. Yeah that's right. This is the bedroom. But even so But even the bedroom's bigger. Oh crikey that's a big bedroom too isn't it? It's bigger. Most definitely. Yeah I said So you'd have It's a lot better. Yeah. Yeah. I could tell by the you know the details Financial it just seemed that Yeah. The way they were reading. Yeah the way it was reading. I said to Stuart I'm sure Yeah. the upstairs is bigger . He said that can't be. But you've got the hall and that underneath you see. Yeah it's the landing and everything. Underneath us yeah. Yeah. It would be quite pleasant up here. Yeah. I like this one, I don't like the downstairs one so much. No I like this much more. What colour's the bathroom? the bathroom's even nice. It is isn't it? I don't know why but it just is. Yeah. Yeah I prefer this one definitely. I do. Yeah I do. What's this little cupboard? It's quite big as well isn't it? Yeah. You could put your hoover and ironing board in that. Yeah. Cos they don't think of those things do they? No they never do, do they? Yeah I prefer this one to downstairs. It's much better. I do. I do. Yeah. You've also got the loft there you can shove Oh this one's locked rubbish . Well that one actually's not advertized so it might have gone. Oh. we've only seen well we've seen advertized six five six and seven Numbers five six and seven isn't it? but that one wasn't Oh right. That wasn't well there's no details in That's probably sold then because if I had a choice of four I would take the upstairs one wouldn't you? Yes. said. Yeah. Let's have a little look how it goes again if I may. Cos I haven't seen I like the look well I like this one if out out out of all of them I do. Yeah I do. this is much more much the nicer. I like it very much. Yeah I like it. Much the nicer. As I say you've got plenty of room to have your there's room You know, you've got your washing machine goes in here the cooker there your fridge here. Yeah. Yeah. You could get it all in there wouldn't you? You'd get everyth , you'd get your cooker cooker goes there, fridge here, washing machine under there, you're Yeah. You're away. Plus it's a little bit Yes it's more Yeah that other one was a bit narrow and a bit more elbow room. Yeah. I like this one. Yeah I do. I definitely much prefer this one. And I say the rooms are bigger as well. Yeah, it's a good size. Yes they are. Oh yes I definitely like the upstairs to the downstairs. And what number's this? Seven. Seven. Mm. This is much better you can almost see your furniture can't you? There's room to put it in. Yeah that's it. afford this Yeah. Yeah. any of them. I like this one. I like this one better than the others. Yeah. I definitely That that Yeah that's, when I was reading the thing I said to you somehow the upstairs seemed much better. Yeah. Cos it's quite a big . It is. It is a nice size bedroom. Have you got Yes. wardrobes and dressing tables? So you'd Mm. Quite pleasant view as well. It is, that's it. It's not likely to be over well actually I don't we don't know if they're gonna be building there. Well I think you'll I think you'll find you'll get buildings Eventually. eventually round the back. It would be a good start wouldn't it? Yeah. Especially if you can get the right price. Well I certainly, yeah, I certainly like this one. When you say you've had what sort of figures are looking well, can you achieve? Do you know? Thirty two thousand. Thirty two and a half maximum wasn't it? Mm thirty two and a half at a push. So really you just wanna get something as cheap as possible and Yeah. Cheap but nice. Yeah. Cheap as possible but That's it. you want a bargain. And this one's, as I say it's twenty nine something so I mean it's it's about right isn't it? Mm . Yeah and there are all sorts of ways you could . You could either go in with cash . Do you have any deposit at all? No. ? No. I definitely like this one. The benefit of this one as well is if, let's just say we, that you knocked him right down on his money force as cheap a buy as possible then ask if you can do a hundred percent. Mm. Providing it's providing it's providing it's not damp That's right. new roofs and everything. I mean you'd have no problem with this. No. None at all. No problem at all, no maintenance at all . Right, looks good. It does yeah. Yeah. Alright. I definitely like this one. Yeah. So we could work towards to knock him right down. Cos then obviously when the market lifts it's then that's where you're gonna gain. Gain. Mm. Mm I definitely like this one so Well it's a good size isn't it? It is. Much better. Surprising really. Only that Yeah. extra foot more. That's why I said to you Extra foot or extra few inches isn't it? Yeah. Just makes all that difference. Yeah. Just that extra what, eighteen inches? That's all it is in the kitchen. And somehow the rooms downstairs the bay. Yes. Yes because of the bay. Yeah it makes makes that much difference. Yeah. I like the colour best up here. Yes I like the colour better. Another thing you've got a window in the bathroom. Mm. Yeah. Mm. Funny down here it's a dark hole. Yeah down here there's no, no. the bathroom's quite nice Right. I know but in here there's no window at all it's er you've got to have the light on all the time. Don't you? Yeah. It's the way the door is as well. The door in the other flat is here isn't it? Mm. And you've got the bathroom and Yeah. The bathroom, bathroom are here and th there you've got the kitchen and the lounge. It's turned over . Kitchen to kitchen to the front. And the bathroom's And I mean you don't really need all that space. It's dark isn't it? It is dark. Mm. Then you have the noise of the fan where upstairs you've got the window. If you have a shower you can Yeah. let the condensation out. This kitchen's really quite tiny . It's quite but what I'm I mean where would you put your fridge? You don't do you? I mean you've really got to have a fridge in this day and age haven't you? Oh yeah. I mean you can't really afford to take a unit out. No. I mean No cos then you wouldn't have enough space. And you haven't got You couldn't have your fridge sticking out here so you could go and to get No you couldn't do that could you? Somebody hasn't thought, have they? No. Cos they've put a separate drawer unit in. Oh yeah. So you can't even lose that cos you lose your drawers. Yeah. Cos this is a double base. Mm. No I think number seven's the one. Yes. I do. It's better than this one. I like that one. like being upstairs wouldn't you? Yes. Yes. Well w we said we'd prefer to be upstairs Well we prefer stairs rather than have somebody above your head. And you can make the noise can't you? Also as well We work, we we work shift work so I I mean you know we get up at half past four in the morning and and if you've got people trundling about above your heads all hours of the night it's er Oh god. How are we gonna get out? Erm we're not. Oh. Stuart. Is it a security lock and I'm not turning the key round enough? No you're not. Is is there a key in the No I've got the keys. No there's no key Erm Can you hold it here so it's security keys and I haven't turned it round the other way. Mm. Do you feel like jumping out the window? Oh dear what a pity. Never mind we'll just have to stay here the night. Yeah. Oh well done. Window, oh we've done it. I think it just needs a bit of Maintenance. a bit of something on it just to Yeah. key. what is it? Something forty . UB forty? WD forty. WD. Yeah. Ah that's it. Oh I wonder if it's going to yeah. It's it's the security thing isn't it Mm. turn it right round the key it should Yeah it's not It needs It needs, just needs a little bit of attention. Just, yeah. That's to open it and that's to lock it. Take the key out and that should lock it now. Yes. But now it should yeah it does. Yeah. It's been just lying here. That's now locked. You won't be able to shut it now because of that . Oh right. You could leave it open that way. If you leave it to there then that will click then then you'll be alright. That's handy cos to shut yourself out. No. Not if you've turned it that way cos then you won't be able to Ours is actually a new house. It was but er the market was so low that he decided not to well I don't think he could get a buyer actually, it's just stood there so he he he let it out rather than have it stood there with the option for us to buy it but I say now the prices are lower he's not keen on selling it at that price. And I'm not prepared to go on paying three thousand a year renting it to give to him when I could be buying one myself. Yeah. Mm. I mean three thousand a year to rent one's a lot of money really. Mm. Hallo there Oh hallo yeah, sorry about that a bath and I was soaking in there for ages. I wasn't quite decent and I thought well I'm not letting people in when I'm not decent Oh no . I mean, please excuse the mess won't you. Doesn't matter. If you'd have let me in I could have washed your back for you. No no no. No I can manage on my own thank you. Fair enough. Fair enough. Right. Sorry to intrude on your on your privacy. That's okay. But er there we are. That's the kitchen is it? Economy seven . it's dark in here. bit sort of dark Yeah. It's not normally. Nice size kitchen isn't it? Yeah that's alright isn't there? Yes. If you can imagine it without the boxes it Yeah. Cos you're packing up. for a flat it's er Yeah. It's a nice size. It's a lovely size kitchen. you? Oh yes. What act what actually does the price include? Does it does it That I couldn't tell you. Is the cooker included or not? No. No. That's That's, that's yours is it? Doesn't, doesn't say. It just says a cooker point. Cooker point. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. All the units are obviously ? Yes. Yeah. Oh yes, yeah. Are they your carpets? No. Okay. And So the carpets may be as well. So we might get might get the carpets in as well. you'd have to negotiate on that one with Mr and Mr . Yeah. talking about your home. The carpets Everything that is here is mine with the exception of the carpets. Yes. Right. Shall we go, is that the bedroom through there? No that's the bathroom. Oh right. Do you want to come? And is that a store cupboard? That's that's the airing cupboard through there. But it This is the airing cupboard in here is it? it doesn't air. I'll be honest with you, it doesn't air. No. It's er very cold in there. Well it's good good, got a well lagged tank. Yeah. Which is not a bad Yeah that is it. That's what he said he had to That's not a bad thing in a way is it? No. It's better than having the water . They actually took they actually took the front off so that the water would get hotter. Erm and it didn't work and you know Mm. I thought then I'd be able to use it as an airing cupboard but it still didn't work but it's like you said it's because it's got such a good Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it does, once you've actually heated the water it keeps hot for so long it's amazing. Ours is like that isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. Where we are now is We've got a similar one on ours. Yeah. Mm. But it's a good store isn't it? For your ironing board and cleaner and Yes it's quite large as well isn't it? Mm. Yeah. I I mean you can put anything in there really. Yeah. I mean I did have some of the boxes in there until I sort of, thought while I was sorting things out. Yeah, yeah. The bathroom Yeah that's the bathroom in there yeah. Oh it's a nice little bathroom as well isn't it? Oh that's not too bad either is it? No. No it's pleasant. It is isn't it? Yeah. Isn't it. Yeah. It's quite Very pleasant. Yeah, it's quite nice. Big enough. Yeah. I like the colour as well. Yeah. Yes it's a nice colour. It's a warm colour. Yeah. That's right. Mm. Nice. Yeah this would be terrific. Yeah that's alright. like we've got the, quite, similar lot Yeah. Same as we've got at home. we've got already. Feels warm in here as well. Yes. Do you have any problem with the heating? Or Erm the bedroom doesn't get as hot as I would like it Yeah. but then I have circulation problems so I do feel the cold. Yeah, yeah. Erm but here in the kitchen it's lovely and warm. But but it's quite, it's a warm it's a warm Yeah. I mean that heater is not on full, not on full power. That's quite good isn't it? like ours. That's very much like the one, I mean ours is on about two or something like that and Yeah. We have ours on two and it's ever so warm. You go in there in the evenings you know when it's been when it's been off and Yeah. As I say I mean well because I do feel the cold I suppose I have to have more heat than Yeah, yeah. a normal person but er Yeah. Quite nice really isn't it? Yeah I like this too. The bathroom's a bit chilly but once you've put that heater on and shut the door for a few minutes it's Yeah. Yeah. it's lovely. Yeah we've got one like that, I know. That's not my artwork on there, that's my little niece's artwork. space under there as well . Yeah there's space under there for bits and pieces. Yeah. And it's amazing actually what you can get under there. Ooh look at this. That's a nice size bedroom. It is a nice size isn't it? Yes. It's Eh? quite a big bedroom. That's a smashing size bedroom isn't it? Mm it's a very good size. This is where you isn't it? Mm. Oh that's a lovely big bedroom isn't it? Yeah. And you've got the heater here over in the corner as well so it's gonna Got the heater yeah yeah. air it through. Yeah. Yeah. Cos you don't always want it hot do you? No, we don't like it too hot in the bed, well Stuart doesn't. He's always well I'm always cold and he's always boiling. If I have the heat up very high in the bedroom he can't sleep. I'm impressed aren't you? It's ever so nice. Very. It is lovely, yeah. Have the oth is there another flat then above this one then? Above. Yeah that's a bit smaller. Yeah the door there isn't it? That's a bit smaller. Mm. Do you hear them at all? Erm sometimes if he's been out very very late and I'm still up and he's come home after a heavy night drinking. I mean I'm not saying he's alcoholic but he goes out with the lads and he you know he'll he'll sort of thud up the stairs. Mm. But then he'll apologize the next day. Man after me own heart. You know I mean other than that, no I mean it it's not as if Yeah I was gonna say same. this one. Oh probably, probably. If he goes to the pub Stuart would probably know him anyway. Might do yeah. More than likely. No, I mean it it's not as if you hear the telly or Oh I see, these are his stairs. That's the stairway. That's his stairs, yeah. Yeah. Yes. His door's just there isn't it? Yeah. That's right, yeah that's Yes that's his door there and Yeah. that's his stairs out. But the upstairs one that's the kitchen's a bit smaller. Erm and instead of the bath in the bathroom he's just got a shower up there. probably is wardrobes there. I must admit I like a shower but then again I do like the chance to have a bath now and again bath every, every now and again yeah. Yeah that's bigger. Erm which is why I went for the downstairs cos I had a choice of either. But I went for the downstairs one because of the bath. Yeah, yeah. Yeah be nice. It's nice. It's a nice size. I mean we've just been to look at some others and upstairs and downstairs . But the upstairs one in the other one was was Was bigger than the downstairs. Hell of a lot of difference really, it's surprising just a Yeah. I mean I must admit I've looked at some other flats. Erm and one I looked at I couldn't believe it. Erm I mean it was a top floor flat. And so I mean you had to sort of go up several flights of stairs and you walked in and it, it looked lovely. Thought oh this is nice it erm it ha it hadn't got a separate kitchen, it was sort of like a kitchen diner Yeah. Mm. but it was very big. A studio. Mm. It was very big. I thought oh well this is lovely. Walks into the bedroom, well you would have hardly got the bed in there never mind about anything else. And er there was a hand basin in there and when you went into In, in the bedroom? In the bedroom. Yeah. When you walked into the well what I would call a cupboard but they classed it as the bathroom. You'd got the toilet there and behind the door, I mean you had to sort of squeeze yourself and shut the door, and behind the door was a shower. You're joking. No shower curtain mind you. Even so, no room to swing a cat. Terrible. It was terrible. Yes. This is nice though. I like this. Yeah I like this one. Very much. Yeah it's a nice, just a nice size. Do you know who the builder is? It says here local building. Erm well no all I know is Bates and Dack but they didn't actually, but I mean yeah they put it together. They, they renovated it. They they they That's right yeah. They renovated it. they re, revamped it or whatever. allocated parking. You just park in the road or? No, no there's the gravel down There's a space down the side is for parking. Oh good. So you've got your own bit. Oh yeah. Yeah this one, I mean upstairs hasn't but this one has. And is there anything there, I mean can you dry your clothes out there at all? No. There's no line. Can't get over the size of this though. I think I'd probably put my wardrobes on his, on the stair wall. That would dampen it a bit wouldn't it? Mm. Nice . I like it. It's lovely and warm. Very nice. yeah. What is your situation? I mean, are you renting the flat? Yes. Yeah. So how much notice do you have to give ? Er a month. I'd like you to give me a month. Thank you very much indeed for showing us your home. Thank you very much. I'm sorry to bother you. If you can hear next door's music I can assure you it's not a regular occurrence. And if you tell him about it he tu , he's in a rock band. Erm now and again he practises but he usually tries to do it when I'm not here but erm not seem quite friendly then? Yeah. Well we, we work shifts so he could probably do it when we're on earlies and Well that's right yeah. And when we're on lates he can do it at Yeah if you let it, I mean you know he's fair like that. If you let him know. We're not really in that much anyway are we? No. No. We work long hours and Thing is don't you find in th in this sort of environment if you've got, you know if they're nice people you all communicate don't you? Yeah, you can do things like that. And that can work to your favour because if ever you have a problem, then you know. Yeah you can talk and That's right. Yeah I mean that's the same as I di I must admit I did have sort of an argument with him once over his music. We fell out for a little while but I mean,playing loud but I mean upstairs is fine. And next door to him, number five they're an elderly couple erm and they've got one of their sons living there at erm he's disabled in some way but I'm not quite sure how. Mm. But they are very very friendly. Very friendly they are. Mm. I suppose some people might say to them oh you're being nosy but then that doesn't bother me because you don't tell them what you don't want them to know. No. That's right. But it's nice because if ever you're poorly then it's in your welfare isn't it? That's right, yeah. They keep an eye They do tend to keep an eye on me anyway. Neighbourhood watch.. It's, well there is a Neighbourhood Watch Scheme down here. Really? Yes. Oh yeah. No I'm really impressed. It's nice isn't it? Did you just want to have a little wander? Yeah. I like this one too. We'll have them both shall we? Yeah. One each. We'll have them both. Yeah, you can live in one and I'll live in another. and live in yours . Nice aren't they? Lovely aren't they? Mm. corner there Goodness. Where do you get your carrots from? Er my nephew has a shop. Erm in Leverington actually. Yes What, just like a shop shop or a? A shop. So you got your you got your washing machine under there? Washing machine and cooker and fridge So of course you could have in here. Cooker, fridge. I mean Yeah I say, or you could have a taller fridge. Oh yeah you could have a taller fridge. Fridge fridge-freezer up there or against that window couldn't you? Have it away from that . I like them like that because what I tend to do with so I like them that big because then I can cut them up into sticks, stick them in the fridge, then if I feel like being naughty not ever so naughty because I'm nibbling at carrots rather than a packet of crisps or something . But they're a nice aren't they? Oh yeah and I mean that sort of size Yeah. I know. . Well it's make your mind up time. Well We've got to see what Mr says first won't we? They're specially for baking. I dunno. I'm not waiting, bother waiting for the desired I mean with ordinary ones Well. Er carrots are fifteen pence a pound but the potatoes th they're different. I mean those bakers, they weren't very expensive erm but it's ordinary potatoes nice kitchen. I think they're probably a little bit more expensive but he is much cheaper than in Well in Leverington then? Erm along the main Gorfield Road But I mean, you can't get those that size where I live. And I love baked potatoes. We end up having That's right. Yeah. So thanks for showing us Yep, thank you very much. Right. Thank you. disturb you again. No that's okay. Yeah. Very nice. Yeah I like it. Very nice. Mm. Yeah. It's nice and central That's it, yeah. I mean you're you're not sort of right in the centre of town, but Right in but it's only a few minutes away. That's right yeah. You don't have to have It's up the road and cross the main road and you're in Kingsway aren't you? You don't need any wheels do you, really? No. No. Which is just as well. I crashed You're wheel-less are you? Yeah I crashed mine. Put it in the dyke. Oh no. Very nice. I was very lucky actually. Mm. Somebody was looking after me cos I shouldn't have got out and I did. Mm. It does actually. I was out with erm an nephew la last night and I mean it wasn't icy but it was sort of getting late and it was cold. It was slippy. And he was being silly. And I said to him if you don't pack it up I'm gonna get out and walk. Yeah. Mm. Cos And he said well it's a long time since you had the accident. I said I don't care. It's still, you know silly little things No it still makes you very careful. like that still unnerve me. A bit of mud on the road and That's it, yeah. It was slippy though I mean I noticed that even, you know just pulling away from or something like that okay I mean it's a reasonably car but I mean, you know just a little bit too heavy on the accelerator You can feel it. it's very easy you can feel it slipping That's right. quite easily. Thanks very much indeed. That's alright. Lovely. Yeah thank you. Thank you. Are you alright? Are you warm? Oh I I mean I haven't been I had it on but I put it off because it was Yeah well you're going out anyway so you Yeah. don't need the heater on. How are you, alright? Enoch's coming for me. Three o'clockish. Oh well. We didn't have to come. you see. We came round to give you a lift. Oh that's very nice of you but I didn't know whether you were or not and she phoned, no I phoned her and she's going and she said she'd come for me so Yeah. I didn't know whether you were coming or not cos you said you didn't know. Well we didn't know, we weren't sure but No. You said you would be too busy. Well we didn't know what time when we What time we were gonna be viewing houses but we've been to see two. Where? Oh yeah I think, think just finished meeting me and they're . Have you heard from the people yet? No. Well th er you have to wait till you hear from them really before you do can you? I don't know whether it's Mm? Whether it's what? Well you can't just leave it and not bother can we? No I know but I thought they'd, you know? We thought there'd have been some response I thought they by now but there hasn't been. There hasn't? Did they say they'd come and see you? Yeah. And they haven't bothered. Oh I wouldn't . Mm? And he hasn't bothered. Well time yet isn't there? Well we thought we'd better get looking. Oh yeah, you might as well. You might as well. Well what have you seen? Where you been? Albany Road and New Drove. New Drove, where's that? Down near Queen's Boys Oh aye, down that way. Yeah I know. That one. Oh! A new one. Yeah, brand new. It's a flat? Mm. They're both flats. They're both flats that we've seen. Well is it upstairs or downstairs? Well there's one of each but we prefer the upstairs one, it's nicer. I didn't like the downstairs one. I didn't like the kitchen. It was like a passage weren't it really? It's a funny little It was a small kitchen wasn't it? funny kitchen. There's no room for any No. well there's room for a cooker and a washing machine. Is it, there's nobody in it? It's it's it's empty? Brand new. Mm. Yeah brand new empty. Nobody's been in them yet. And how how big? Is it the whole hou I mean how, what half the house? No. No. Well the upstairs half. Upstairs half. Yeah. Well there's a h that's two houses there, there's four there? Yeah. There's four flats altogether in that block. I see. There's one bedroom and a living room and a kitchen and a bathroom and it's qu they're quite sizeable really I mean they're not You're quite impressed? Mm. Well the upstairs one's certainly much much better than the downstairs one. Yeah we haven't, we liked the upstairs one very much. Is it? Yeah. The upstairs one And we can get a good package on that you see. How do you mean? Well he he's wanting to sell them. Yeah but I mean what do you And he'll either you can either knock he'll ei , you can either knock some money off, which he'd accept whatev ,mo most or he'd pay your deposit for you. Oh. And what's that? Well I'm if it's full price thirty thousand, that's three thousand pound innit, near enough? Yeah well fifteen hundred. Five percent is Fifteen at five percent. Oh he'd pay fifteen hundred for you? What Or or he'll knock it off the price if you want to. Oh. Well that doesn't You can get a good deal with him because Yes. he wants to get, he wants them sold now he's built them. Yeah. And this is the other one is it? What this is a house is it? That's a flat as well. No this is a flat as well? they're both flats. Yeah. That's a downstairs one. A downstairs flat. Downstairs flat. In an old house? . Yeah. Older, yeah it's an older house but it's been completely It's been Yeah. builders ren made it into two separate . Is it nice? Mm. Yeah I think I like that. It's the older one I know but I think they're both nice. The bath the kitchen's nice in that one though isn't it? The kitchen's nice What, in this one? Yeah. It's a lovely kitchen. Yeah. It's been done out nice and there's tiles and there's nice coloured units and that. There's some lovely lovely units in that one. And would there be any erm difficulty in getting a mortgage with this one? Well I don't think so. No, they're quite happy to lend Stuart the money as long as it's not more than thirty two which that isn't. Yeah. And we'll probably knock him down anyway because say there's Yes. properties aren't going. Where's this? Albany, where's that? Top top of Chase Street. Behind factory . Bottom of Chase Street. Bottom. Ch Chase Street, now where's that? Where, Rutland Arms is on the corner. It's right on the end of that. Oh oh off Lynn Road? Oh aye you're right in town then? Yeah. Yeah. I say there, there Interest you? I've seen that before. Oh have you? Mm. I was gonna rent it. Are you making a cup of tea? Yeah. I'm making you a cup of tea. Oh right make We're desperate. We've not, we've been out since about eleven o'clock and not had a drink. Ah! Haven't you been to the We've been in we've been in the estate agents and Oh. seeing houses and Well there's biscuits there, there's a c a bit of cake Ann. I made a coconut cake but er er I put some coconut icing on it pink. But the pink went a bit Well the cochineal was a bit dry so I put some water in and boof out it came. So you, it's got red icing on it. But you can have it if you like, you know. You can have it if you like. Mm. Or there's some biscuits. Or there's some Ryvita. Sheila has lost three and a half pounds this week. Oh lovely. Isn't she doing well? And well she's that chuffed with herself last night She's so, done really well hasn't she? yeah, no she won the fruit. Have this heating on. No it's alright. Sure? Erm It's not cold outside it's lovely. No it's quite mild. No it isn't cold. I mean I had the heating on to start with and oh I thought this is ridiculous. I mean Yes. I may as well save my ga That's it. cos it's gonna cost me Erm she won the fruit. Now what they do is each of them takes a piece of fruit each time they go Mm. I mean this is quite a good idea actually. An apple or an orange or something. So the one who loses the most weight wins the fruit. And she got the fruit. Wins it. Oh that's definitely an incentive. Oh lovely. Three and a half pound she lost and she lost more than any of them. lovely . Some of them's one of the women had gained a pound. Oh dear. Had gained a pound, so you know So I mean she's over half a stone now isn't she so that's nice for That's right. That's what she say. I said good girl, keep going. Yeah. Oh I'm going to she says. Mm yeah. But I mean that makes a difference Ann doesn't it? It does. Eh? Mm that's smashing. Yeah she's right chuffed with herself. Right chuffed with herself. I'm trying to wash my hair, but I daren't do, I'll do it tomorrow There you are dear. Erm Pop that down there There you go. Bet you're ready for that. Yes def definitely ready for it. Definitely. Definitely desperate for it. Yep. I'll leave yours another minute. I'm desperate. Ah! Mum's got some cake in there she said if you want a bit. cake at home. Fair enough. Just thought you might be hungry. Cheers my dear. Cheers. See what I got yesterday Ann. Oh they're nice. Three pound. Oh! They're lovely. Like them. Oxfam. Not Oxfam . Look it's even got Aren't they nice. a tummy thing in it. You know, to hold your tummy in. They're lovely. How about that! Three quid. Three fifty. They're nice. Like them? Yeah. New pair of trousers aren't they? And they fit me perfect. They're smart. Yeah they've not been worn have they? You can tell No, look. They're lovely. Like them? Mm. Mm nice. will go bananas. The Heart Foundation Shop. Well what's wrong with the Heart Foundation Shop? Well whatever it is, you know? It's as good as anywhere. Sheila doesn't agree with it. And why not? Mind it's a pair, it's a tw it's about what, twelve pound pair of trousers for only for Yeah. a fifteen pound pair of trousers for Yeah. Cos they're not it's not a cheap pair is it? They haven't been worn have they? No. I'm quite happ chuffed with them. Mm. Ooh pardon me. Have that cake Stuart. No it's alright. Well help yourself. Don't worry. He would. Oh alright, alright. . I had the baby I had the baby in the er in the er verandah all morning. Oh have you? I bet they liked it out there. Change of scene. I put the two of them in the cage, they went in the cage and they, oh and they get on alright together. They was chirping a bit and Whiskey's the bully. Yeah? And Padley and then I sprayed them and Padley started to wash himself. Oh! The size of them! When he flutter, oh he's very he, oh he's a big bird. He is. He was a devil though. They were alright though, quite happy out there. Mm Do you wanna s er at the table Ann? No you're alright. That'll do me. You're sure? We shan't be stopping that long Eh? if you're going out anyway won't you? Oh you can stay as long as you like. It's up to you, I don't mind. No. We'll have a cup of tea then we'll go home. Get our tea on. Liver casserole for tea. Oh very nice. Very nice. Just the job. I hope so. Should be alright. Have you had your hokey thing? No I haven't that. Oh it's lovely. Is it? It's delicious. I've eaten mine. It do you want er do you want No, no you have it. Did you have the two bits or the one bit? Yeah. I had two with a bit of salad. With a bit of sa yeah I've got to do salad. Oh it was lovely. Was it? Mm. Ooh. Yeah, no, I'm gonna have it tonight Ann. I erm had baked potatoes last night. Mm. What else did I do? Just had a shower, cor feel a bit cold now. What did you have last night? Oh you had tandoori didn't you? Tandoori. I don't know whether to give Vera her present today or tomorrow. What did you get her in the end? A rosebush. Oh yeah you said you probably were. I mean I know, er do you think it's daft? No, I think it's nice. Ah but it's a it's a you know a rose, not you know I think I thought well what can you buy her? Well that's it. No point in buying her ornaments and things I mean Everybody's buying her all s . No! She's gonna get loads of ornaments. That's it. And and you know what she's like. So I I I mean, but I don't know whether to take it today or you know because she'll get a lot of things given her today. Or wait till tomorrow night or, Joan phoned this morning and oh I s I saw Tom in town yesterday. Although I didn't, he he, I didn't have time to ask him what the hell he'd been up to. Here you are. Oh I've got some n new cigarettes. I never brought them in. What kind? What they called? Dorchester. Dorchester. They're cheap. Yeah. Have you tried them? Well th they're cheap. I only got one packet cos they're cheap in Gateway and I thought well if if they're alright might just go on them then. Yeah. These are getting ridiculous prices. Well they are aren't they? I agree with you. So I'm, I thought we'll try them. Dorchester? Yeah. Never seen them before. Yeah. How much were they anyway? One sixty seven Yeah. kingsize and one sixty six ordinary. Thought you might as well have the kingsize. Yeah. Won't smoke as many if they're bigger. No. If they're alright Ann. That's it. If they're alright. Yeah. tomorrow. Ha. I put on this as this rose blossoms each year hope you will too. And remember this day with joy. Do you think that's alright? Do you think that's daft? Yeah lovely. No. I don't know whether to take it with me. You are coming tomorrow night? Cos I'm gonna tell . Oh yeah. Mm. You know? Yeah. We're definitely coming. Yeah, we're booked in. You don't have to come too early only I've got to go at quarter to seven. But I mean you don't Well we'll be here. Oh here's . Oh here . You said three o'clock. No. It's five to. No I said oh Sue. Pardon? Sue. Yeah. Oh Enoch's staying and oh they're not waiting, I'd better go. I'll leave you to it then, I'll hear all the gen tomorrow then. Yeah. We we'll still be, we won't be going, we'll be staying here. Isn't no point in going home. Unless you wanna go home and get washed and changed do you? Might as well stay here and get washed and changed . Might as well bring clothes and get ready here and No point is there? No. No, no point is there? Might as well bring the clothes and stay here as go home, all the way home and all the way back again. Mightn't I? Mhm. I've got her pressy here but I think, I don't think I'll give it till tomorrow night. I was just thinking you know she'll have that many things to do today won't she? Yes. So I think I'll give it tomorrow night. Come in. So I feel a bit This is Sue. Mrs . Hello. This is Ann. And that's Stuart. On your own? Well I know Stuart. Well it's so nice to mee , Mrs , oh, very pleased to meet you. Oh yes. It's very nice to meet you. Yes. Yes. You have met him haven't you? Yes. Unfortunately she says. Oh no that is So I've had two injections. What for? Well they give you one don't they in your bloodstream so they can have a deep scan. Well what are they scanning then? My back. Your back. Your back. Yeah. What are they doing that for? It's my last one. Oh to see whether your things are all in place? I'm going back Yeah. Oh I see. So and then they gave me an injection in the back. Ooh. Cos I've got a bit er my blood's a bit thick round the scar so disperse the blood. Ugh! Sounds . You're not so you're not feeling so good? Glad when it's all over. Eh? Be glad when it's all over. Yeah. That's right. To be quite honest I could just go to bed. And Well why don't, why don't you go then? No. Don't bother coming out there. Then I won't sleep tonight then Jean. Eh? If I sleep during the day I don't sleep at night. Well that's true but maybe, you know and if you've to drink she , maybe you shouldn't drink sherry on top of what you've had injected into you. Oh I know I shan't have any drink. And my feet keep swelling up. I've got my shoes on now, but I couldn't Do they? Yeah. But they don't know what's the matter with them. Oh. Don't know why they keep swelling up. Oh crikey. Oh dear. Otherwise your er otherwise she's alright? Otherwise she's alright. Yeah. I'll get me coat. Yeah otherwise I'm Yeah well Mmmmmmm Not A fit but No. No. not A one but getting there. Getting there. Yeah. Slowly but surely. Yeah. No work so Let's hope they soon get you sorted out. Mm. Well they've sorted my back out. Mm. Yeah I had my disc removed but took two operations but Say it'll take you a while won't it, to Well I had my first operation twentieth of August then I had another one the second of October. Mm. But at least I haven't got no pain anyway so Do they think you'll be able to go back to work? Yeah, six months. Six months? Yeah, February. Never mind eh. Mm. That'll soon be here. Then you'll have to be careful won't you? Be very careful. Get christmas and that over with. Yeah. Oh Ashley's going this afternoon. I know. I met him. But Ashley isn't going tomorrow is he? I know. So I hear. I met him. She's going tomorrow. But he's not allowed is he? Yeah. Why can't he come? He's not allowed he told you didn't he? Well I He told me he wasn't allowed to go nights. told him that er seeing he's on the sick he wasn't allowed to go. he's only coming for an hour. I tell you what he, bet, I bet you he's shitting, oh excuse me shitting bricks today. Well you know why. It's either Maurice going to be there or . I know. 's the b the big boy. They'll Yeah but they don't probably both be here. Well it don't look very good me being there then does it? Oh that doesn't matter. Well that's what, that's what his excuse was, never cos he's never been in here. Yeah but he told me he told me he told He said told him him Yes? that he's not even to phone the place. That's right. told him that, because Yeah but why don't tell the girls? Well exactly. Because you know what, they're up in the air aren't they? Yeah , can you believe it? Mm And why? Why can't he ph , that's ridiculous isn't it? I said Oh well if he wants to know why I'm there and me are you off sick I shall just show him a I've got proof that I've been off sick. Show him your scar I've got eight pins I have . But Well I know you're off but I mean that Yeah but here there er Yeah I know but and everywhere isn't he? Well if if said that, and he he he he shouldn't have said it well he's in trouble. Now I've lost my keys. No I haven't. Here they are. I mustn't forget my keys. No erm I mean that's s but he's he's gonna feel like a right it'll be funny today Sue. It will be jockeying for position. Ah but he isn't there yet is he? What, today? Will go? You don't think he Well it it's gotta be seen to believe. You can't say Well yeah that's true. until he turns up. No. Can you? True. But the thing is he he's gonna be ever so, isn't he? He'll be making excuses all the way round No I've gotta go . Eh? He he won't be there long if he does come. Well that's it. That's it. But I mean if he doesn't and sh , I mean why shouldn't you? I mean after all these years here I mean you can't well that's Do you wanna say cheerio? Yeah. Bye Bye bye. Bye. Bye bye. See you Sue. You'll see them tomorrow. Th they're coming tomorrow Yeah we'll see you tomorrow. See you tomorrow look. but you know. Oh yeah. Well they said,wh when we, last Sunday weren't it? Yeah when we called in. I went in and paid my money and they said to Ann Isn't Stuart coming? aren't you coming? You know,be seeing you. in the office didn't she? Mm. She nearly begged us to g , nearly went down on her knees to get us to go didn't she? Well I'll see you tomorrow then Stuart. Yeah alright Sue. Yeah. We'll see you then. Yeah. Yeah. See you tomorrow. Yeah. Just lock up and do what you like to the cat. You can either leave it in or out you know. Don't Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Cheerio. Toodaloo. Yeah. See are you coming round tomorrow afternoon Stuart? Yes mum. You We're not going he's bringing his clothes. We're not going home. Oh aye yeah Ann. Are you bringing yours? Yeah, well there's no point in going home. No that's true. That's true. okay. Bye. See you. Bye. See you tomorrow. There we go. Is that better dear? Yeah. That's lovely. Shall we have a nice cup of tea? I was gasping. Especially when that man was Rabbitting? Yeah, which I didn't understand any of it. No. Pension mortgages and this mortgage and and he didn't really know how er er cos that that foreign Lucy or whatever her name was Yeah. that foreign lady was quite amused. She was laughing when you were asking him questions. Oh. as if to say ah ah he's not sure what he's doing. He's got somebody here who knows . Instead of just sitting there and quoting all these figures yeah and blinding you with science . Yeah. Somebody who can ask questions and knew what he was talking about. Yeah. And she was giggling away. She kept raising her eyebrows and laughing. I was watching her. Well I couldn't see her cos I had my back turned. No you had your back to her. Yeah. But I could see behind you and she was Well there you are. When you do know a bit about it you yes you want to know Well that's it. You're not, and you're not gonna be blinded by all these like he was, what was he saying about all endowments are are not unit then you were saying yes they are and I didn't know what on about there. I I think he got his said that. Oh he knew what he was talking about but But you were confusing him because you knew, where he's used to just sitting there and telling blah blah blah blah and Well you see the thing is they they they And you knew what he was on about. they quote this unit linked business. Now it's all And you didn't want that did you? well and good a unit linked policy but as I said to you before that if they, if the market crashes the day before your policy is due out you And you haven't got enough money. you could, you can lose a th I don't want one. If the market crashes the day before you take your policy's due to mature wallop. You can lose a lot of money in a you know, just like that. But do you think this thing what he was on about, pension mortgage, do you think that would be better? Was that that PEP thing what's all in the papers at the moment? No. Is that what it means? PEP's different. Oh. Is it similar? PEP's a personal equity plan. Oh. Sorry. Which is different. To be perfectly honest in my current situation Mhm. a pension mortgage would be more advantageous. Well that's the most important thing isn't it? At the moment. Because well I'm not in a pension scheme at work. But I have got an option to go in it Yeah. if I want to. Mhm. Erm the only problem is well, even s even, not so much now because because the er a bit better. Because of the m because of the way pensions and that are are organized now, they're more flexible now I mean, you can go to a job beforehand if if if your company had a pension scheme, you were obliged to go in it that was it. All your other arrangements went up, went through the window. Mm. Erm so it it it it's difficult. Mm I know you can take them along with you nowadays can't you and into a You can now take, now now now you can take them with you. Mm. Where they used to be frozen and then you started another one wherever you went next time. That's right. That's right. Whereas now And you ended up with three four d silly little bits and pieces didn't you? Yeah. Yeah. Whereas now you see all the they can put them all into one. Yeah. I know you can take them with you now. Mm. So in a way I think And it was a lot less money as well wasn't it? I mm yeah but that w don't forget It started that was sixty five. Yeah . The quotation he give was sixty five and as he said which is true they double every five years. Particularly in the later years there's you know Mm. more And that's why I said, when it sounded so low that's why I I still doubt his figures. I still think two hundred pound a month a thirty thousand pound mortgage it's too low. And and a cash sum at the end of it. Still think it's low. Seems quite doesn't seem a lot does it? No. I'm pretty certain And would you still have to have an insurance on top of that? You have to have term assurance. So you'd still have to have You'd have you'd have the two hundred pound and then you'd have a life insurance on top? No no no. No. That was it, two hundred and twelve pound The whole lot? The whole lot. Well why doesn't everybody have them then? Because not everybody's eligible for them. I know but they didn't, he didn't suggest it to you or why doesn't he say well there is this er er, you said that he didn't. And he must have known that they're gonna be cheaper so why doesn't he advise people who are starting out to take one of them? Didn't ask Rather than a Didn't ask the questions. I know, exactly. But surely that's He didn't he his job. If he's trying to find you the cheapest He's not doing his job. Basically Exactly. he's not doing his job. Because a young couple going in well even in our situation, you haven't got much money and you want the cheapest thing for the best we you know. But he never suggested it. You said what about a company, what about a a pension mortgage and he He didn't, he he didn't ask the question. Which he should have asked. Mm. Exactly. Yeah because it is cheaper and You see the thing is you see I mean wh wh when this law came out, LAUTRO and all that business came out that, and best advice and all this sort of thing you had to go through all the finances and what people earned and all that sort of thing. What they've got insurance already erm so on and so forth. And arrange around those circumstances the best advice package. Mm. But he didn't ask me the questions. He just he just he just No he just could do an endowment one and that was it. he just assumed it was gonna be An an endowment policy, and endowment mortgage and that was it. He didn't tell you anything else. No. Well you see when he said your base is gonna be I know. a hundred and two hundred Ninety six. and fifteen pounds or whatever Two hundred and five and then that on a ninety six And then a percent I could get you a percent off as a first time buyer. Mm. That brings it down to a hundred and ninety six for the first year. Then it goes back up to the base rate. Yeah. Not, I know all that's that's obvious. That's quite clear. Mm. But then when he said two hundred and one pounds for a pension mortgage I thought well if a hundred and ninety That's only five pound a month to earn your pension. if a hu if a hundred and ninety six is only your base how come you don't That gives you five pound a month towards your pension which is nothing is it? how do you get two how do you get two hundred and one pounds or two hundred and fifteen pounds and what with, because of the term assurance on top. That's fourteen pounds a month term assurance. Quite high I think. What's term assurance? Don't understand that. Term assurance is life insurance just on life only. With no cash sum at the end. Well if you died you'd be dead. Well that's fair enough isn't it? You wouldn't want anything else. But er throughout throughout the term of my life And if you died the would be paid. If I died a lump sum of thirty thousand pounds is payable. That's it, you'd pay But I think fourteen pounds a month is quite high. Term assurance. I'm tempted, I'm I'm I'm tempted to have a word with Mick. What and arrange your own? Well Or he'd just tell you? well I, whether I, I don't know whether he would or whether he wouldn't. I mean he might he might not but then again he might. He might if I, if I talk to him he might tell me what sort of I don't want to hassle him you see cos I've hassled No, that's it. him before . Not on that sort of thing but other things as well sort of thing and I don't wanna I'd like to know. Mm. I'd like to know before you know You've got to get the right deal. Yeah. I, I did two hundred and one pound a month or two hundred and fift okay it sounds cheap but I don't know fourteen pound a month just for li thirty thousand pound life cover over suppose it's the Yeah but that's not that much a we I suppose it's the term of years. It's only three quid a m a week. Yeah but I suppose it's the term of years as well. You sort of to sixty five rather than at sixty. Well that's it. So that probably makes it but I say without having me own book to check it I can't Mm. I can't tell you. You see you can, you get a lot, you can get tax relief off that or you used to be able to get tax relief. Well he said you could get tax relief on the whole lot. On the whole lot, yeah. That's what he said. At twenty five percent. At twenty five percent. I think you still, I'm not sure whether they've changed the law round or not cos they Well that's what he said didn't he? Yeah. Er you'd be handy for a a tax relief on the whole lot rather than just Yeah. part of it. Cos that you see if you, if you, if you could link up life assurance to your pension you could get tax relief on your life assurance you see? Mm. Which makes it advantageous because there's no tax relief on life policies now as there was There used to be, yeah. There used to be but there is no But they stopped it. there is, they stopped it. There isn't any more. Mm. No, I'm sort of I think he confused himself as well as confusing me slightly Yeah be because you you confused him. Yeah. Because you knew. Mm. Rather than somebody as I say like me who sat down there and he'd just quote all these figures and you wouldn't know what the hell he was on about and just, all you, all I would understand at the end is that's what you gotta pay. Mm. Which is what most people that go in there Are interested in. Well they wouldn't understand all the rest. This plan, that plan, the other plan. They only know well you either have this option paying this amount, that option paying that amount or that option paying that amount and which one do you want to have. Mm. And and you don't understand any of the rest of it. No. No. You just sit there mm yeah mm no mm well that's the cheapest, that's the dearest and and take their advice which ones the best for you and have it . And that's er that's all normal people who don't understand any of it that's the way they'd go about it isn't it? Yeah. You'd just accept whatever was See the other thing, I don't know well no I'm not sure you can now. See if I took a pension mortgage out it would be linked to me lumped into me current pension contract. Cos I've already got a pension scheme running. Cos I've contracted out of SERPS. And also got erm erm what used to be called seventy seven. Yes Stuart. Erm a frozen pension with the Pru Yeah. linked in with it at the moment. That's that's that's my pension arrangements at the moment. Mm. Mm so I'm tempted er if I'm gonna do a pension I tell you what you wa who you wanna go and see. Who I saw when I bought the house at er thing. Now he was, I know he blinded me with science but he wa , he was really very good and he had his computer there and he went through all these different societies and plans. Well that's what he's done. You see that's what he's done. No but he had I mean he had a screen and er Mm. and that was that's along near Maxie's near the post office but it's a Yeah, I saw him. Oh the erm the Scots chap? Er what's his name? Oh and he was smashing. And he explained it all to me. Oh I can't think of his name now. I I I have had dealings with him. He he explained it all. Yeah. And although there was all these figures and er and he explained what was best, I mean he was purely a financial I mean he he as he said when we went in cos it doesn't make no difference, I I I'm not attached to anything. I'm here to No. But nor's he. I am here to give you advice. That's it. And that's it. Independent financial advice. And and therefore I'm not here to sell you this or that. I'm here purely to find out, you want to buy this council house and and and I'm here purely to find out your circumstances and and what would be the best deal for you. That's right. And he went, I mean I was there for blooming ages. And he went through everything till he found out and it wa I didn't have the abs the absolute cheapest one. Cos he didn't think that was a because Steven was disabled and that as well and on my money and one thing and another Yeah. and and one thing and another but er it I mean mi mine ended up with the Bradford and Bingley, I mean Yeah well they're agents for Bradley, Bradford and Bingley Yeah I know but he did say that even though agents I'm not giving you this and then he showed me all the things you know to sort of prove that he was doing it. But that's wh oh yeah that's who I had. Yeah. It doesn't matter what building society you go to. No well that's what he said, it doesn't but I mean he went through all these and insurance companies and because of my kidney being removed I had to pay, I had to pay higher even though I didn't have to have a bloody medical but I had to pay high because of my Yeah. Medical condition. because I'd had medical Yeah it was cos I'd had all these operations. You know you had to put how many operations have you had in the last ten years and have are you er receiving any treatment and all that bloody blah blah blah. And so mine, mine was higher Yeah. than er than other peoples which is why he went to all these bloody quotes. See the thing yeah. As I say the thing, the thing is as I say it's you you your mor He sorted it all out. But he was really good. Yeah. Your mortgage, it doesn't matter who your mortgage is with, basically. I mean you can go to most places and Mm. you're gonna be paying But when you buy a council house it is slightly different in as much as some some of them won't have them. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Then also, he also gave me I mean I got hundred percent mortgage which you are allowed on, I mean the law says er t the chance to buy so therefore you don't have to have a deposit. But he also gave me enough to cover all my fees, legal fees. Yeah. Yeah. So I borrowed over what the house was worth. But that was only because I'd lived in it for a long time and I got a discount so the house was really Discount. Yeah. worth more Yeah. than what I was paying for it. Yeah. Cos I got a discount so er I borrowed another thousand pound To cover your costs. to cover all the costs for the survey for Maxie's and and this that and the other. Which I think come to about eight nine hundred pound. Mm. As I say it doesn't matter what building Anyway he borrowed all that for me. it doesn't matter what building society you go to, you're gonna be paying basically the same rate. Because they're all the same rate. The base rate's the same. You, okay one place you can get a percent discount you might get a percent and a half discount depending on your Mm. depending on the building society at the time. It's the life policy Mm. that makes the difference. But to go to somebody like him who knew his job Mm. which was his job and and had everything there and he, he patched through to this computer this place and different computers that he had. Yeah. Yeah. And the facility to to get through to. Mm. Mm. That he could get all these to find out what he thought was the best policy in in your Mm. as I say because of my health and one thing and another you couldn't just and he, and he was really good he was and explained everything to me I say that Can't think of his name now but I know the chap. He was a tall chap with glasses. Mm. Yeah. Yeah. Ever so nice. Yeah. He really you know made me feel I say I weren't sat there like I was with that fella thinking well he don't seem to know what he's saying anyway. No no. Which is what the impression I got about him, he wasn't really sure himself. Mm. But I think that was partly you floored him because you knew. Yeah. Yeah. He sort of was a bit you got him a bit couldn't say. But certainly that man that I went to that time he was very very nice and Mm. then you could see he'd patch into all these different bloody things and Mm mm. and and and I ended up with er a reasonable Was yours an endowment? Or just It was an endowment. Yeah it had to be. I dunno why but it had to be. Mm. Well I don't know but that's what When does your mortgage finish then? My mortgage? I had it in eighty one, twenty years so another ten years. So in fact there's still an endowment policy on you to cover that mortgage? No they were all cancelled weren't it? I dunno Oh yeah I signed the form. So your endowment policy Everything's all Ended. Yeah. Cancelled. Cancelled. Stopped. Well what about the money? The money was all . I don't know. I just signed forms to say that I was no longer responsible or had any claim on the property or whatever. And that was it. I didn't have to pay any more and I didn't, and I was passing it over to to Steve. I don't know what happened. Yeah but what about the The life policy was in your name. The whole lot was in was it endowment? No I dunno, it can't have been can it? I don't know. No it wasn't it was a no it wasn't an endowment. I didn't pay. I only paid extra insurance. Oh just a straight term p policy like I was Yeah because yeah because, because of my health. Yeah. Yeah. That was it. Yeah it was Yeah. Because of my health. It was a term assurance rather than it being an endowment insurance. Yeah. I couldn't, I don't think he could get the other he got that one because of,i in my health you couldn't they couldn't say how long Mm. because of my kidney. The other kidney could go all blah blah blah and this that and the other. Yeah. It was just ordinary insurance. I don't know how much it was. I don't know. I mean I only paid a hundred and sixty pound a month but I mean Mm. Then I only borrowed twenty odd thousand cos I got a forty odd percent discount off the price of the house anyway. Mm. Twenty two I think it was, something like that. Mm. You see And the rent was thirty six pound a week. And it ended up I was buying it for less money than what I was paying monthly for rent. Yeah. Well you would do. So it was all It was worth it. Might as well have done it. Mm. Mm. So I went into it. Mm. Mm. Yeah it it worked out hundred and sixty one pound a month, with the insurance. So it's alright I mean I paid the whole bloody lot to them, I didn't Mm. sort it all out. You don't pay it separate, I didn't. I paid to council offices. Mm. And they sorted, they forward it I suppose or did whatever they had to do with it. Mm mm. Used to pay at the council offices. different book. used to go and pay it. Write the cheque out and he'd just take it in. Mm. I could have had it done through the bank but he was always up town anyway so Mm. So it didn't make any difference. didn't make any difference one way or the other. Mm. Mm. So how about you? You'd have it done through the bank anyway and I'd just pay you weekly I cou might as well rather than monthly . Mm. Save you going to the bank. Couldn't I? Just give you the money you spends. We'll see when we come, when it comes down to it won't we? What we could do financially. And sort something out then. Well of course we will. expect you to pay But I cert I I I I I ju I it it just sounds you know two hundred pounds a month, just over two hundred pound a month Sounds smashing dunnit? Sounds wonderful. That's what I said, why doesn't everybody have them? Well that's why I can't believe it. Well he said go back and tomorrow at least and And check his figures. Mhm. If that's right that's the one you want really isn't it? Well I I I yeah. I mean obviously I'd have to pay more er for if I want it to end at sixty. Mm. But even then it won't be will it be that much? To get to get a higher lump sum. To get a higher lump sum. But then you see Would it be that much more? Shouldn't think so. Well exactly. So it's gonna You see it's be less than a want two hundred and eighty. Oh yeah. I said so you might as well have that and have a lump sum and a blooming house and And a pension. And a pension. That's what I mean. Might as well have your pension. when you get to sixty. Mm. Say it's only twenty six years and course with a pension see you can increase your contributions. Yeah. If if you get a better job and what have you you can always Better job or whatever or pay rise or whatever you can increase Yeah you your contributions into your pension plan Exactly, yes. and still, and finish your mortgage earlier. Yeah. Fifty five. Mm. Or fifty. Depending on how much you wanna pay. Mm. If you wanna pay more into it. But I still think Well see what he comes up with. See what he comes up with, yeah. See what he comes up with. And certainly say two hundred and twenty five pound a month it's still worth having. It's cheaper than we're paying now isn't it? Mm. Even if it's two hundred and fifty it the same Well you'd still you're gonna have a pension and and a home. In a way I'd rather pay the same and finish the mortgage earlier. Yeah well that's it. You could volunteer to pay two hundred and fifty a month couldn't you? And pay a higher pension policy. Mhm. That's what I mean. And then and then you've got the option then you've got the further option that if you want to reduce your premiums on your pension you can do. If anything happened. Mm. If anything if if it does You see again and then you see if you're out of a job you see you if you happen to be out of a job then you're not eligible for a pension policy. What happens then then? If you get made redundant? Well. And you've already got it. Well, then you have to freeze it. See that's that's the oth that's another drawback with the pension. Whereas an endowment policy it doesn't matter. You you can carry on paying an endowment policy. So it, you know there's pros and cons either way. Mm. There's there's er pros and cons in buying either of tho either of the flats. You see er that's the thing isn't it? Mhm. But you've got to make the decision cos I like both of them very much. I do. So therefore you have to make the decision which one, if it comes down to it, would you like to live in. I mean if we could get that one down at New Drove what is it, twenty nine? So that's gonna be, say if you get fifteen hundred off it it's gonna be twenty eight. Call it, it's thirty thousand isn't it? Yeah. What is it, twenty nine nine nine five. You might as well call it thirty thousand Well say you get twenty eight and a half. You're gonna get it cheaper the mor the monthly payment is cheaper. And then aff and then you could afford to buy some blooming carpets. And with the other one you've got to find a deposit which you'd have to pay back. But you wouldn't have to buy any carpets. You wouldn't have to buy the carpets. And you say we'd gonna have to have a cooker and a fridge and that aren't you? Well a cooker you definitely, a fridge say we could perhaps borrow that one of mum's until we could afford one. Or pick up a cheap one. Unless I say if you knocked him down. But a cooker's no problem because I know you can go into the Electricity Board and say I'm moving into a new property, I haven't got a cooker and they would, you can get them. No deposit, just added to your electric bill. That's a way to because Oh buying it on some sort of Oh yeah on er er a financial agreement. Or look around and see what there is going in the, in the market. And get a sort of Second hand one. no percent free credit. Yeah. I mean there's no difficulty in getting a cooker. Say if we I mean if, if we're paying say two hundred pound a month on a mortgage Mm. for twenty eight thousand . We've got fifty pound a month we can play with and we, to buy Well that's it. You could to buy a cooker over the ne I might have one before I go home. Oh. a wine? No. Cup of tea? Mm, no no. I'll have a I might have a sliml er bacardi before I go home. Just one. I You can have a diet coke, bacardi won't hurt you will it? It's not fattening. Mm it's still extra calories. I shall be drinking some tonight no doubt and and eating. What do you want, bitter lemon? Yeah please. Ice? Yes please. I shall be partying tomorrow night. Oh are you? Very nice too. You alright there? You alright? There was a a house, a bungalow two doors from Stuart's mum. And I popped out to the shop on Sunday the second of November and came back totally and utterly bemused to see them putting a christmas tree up and father christmas in the window and fairy lights all over the place. On the second of November. Oh well. That's a bit late, really. I mean wouldn't you be absolutely pig sick of them by the first of December never mind christmas . year I can remember. Good god. it was in October. Some time by the end of September beginning of October, somewhere round there. they've got christmas decorations . Oh well I couldn't believe it. I come back to Stuart and I said it is the second of November isn't it? He said, yeah. I said well idiots a couple There you are darling. of doors away are now putting their christmas mine are you see the first week in December . Yeah cos you get fed up of them don't you? And they get December really isn't it? Well yes but I mean It is for home . For a pub is, is fine the beginning of December. Yes. You don't want, you get sick of looking at them and they're dust traps aren't they? I think christmas should start everywhere in the first week Yeah, not not beforehand. No. in the shops before then. Because I mean little kids are seeing father christmas and decorations I know. and they think it's christmas. Yeah. then they've got to Don't know any other do they? wait and wait and then they get fed up don't they? As far as putting them up too early as well I say they get all dusty and you get sick of looking at them. Yeah. Time a week or so after christmas has come you're you're glad to get them down and out the way. That's right, yeah. And then it looks bare. Then you think oh oh it looks bare . Yeah, yeah. You wouldn't er Wouldn't what? happen to have er got er pound coin or two spare on you? I don't think I have any. No, cos I was gonna pay the butchers which I would have had to have changed a note and you said I'll pay. All I've got is some coppers for the tin. So you'll have to change some money up if you want Oh. See. money, I've got money but But I haven't got any darling change. Sorry. If I ask Shirley nicely she might lend me a couple. Ask me nicely what Well either that or she'll have to change you a note up. well I don't have a He wants to put some pennies in a machine and he hasn't got any. a little investment in your money box, but I haven't got any money to put in it. pound coin But I have got erm what have I got? You want some pound coins which I ain't got. Ah. You haven't got any? Haven't you got any at all? Only what's in the till. Oh dear. There you go. One two three four five. I'll try and give you some back. Oh do do. But I can't guarantee that. Hallo people. Hallo. Hallo Stuart. How are you, alright? Yes thank you. Jolly good. How the devil are you? Fine. How's you? Yeah, probably. There's you Bob pint and a half four. Course she will. What, for fourpence? Four glasses. How many times that? Tuppence on each? Ooh . Take the whole lot. Oh well just have to pay for them between us. Shall I give him two straws? Yes please. . I'll have one, I'll have We'll share the straw . She's ever so greedy. Do you want a quick game of ? Oh! Thursdays play it. We got a match on Thursdays. forgot how you do it Are we? It's been that long since I played that game . Lager for you my dear? Yes please. Shouldn't have bothered dear. Fifty p eh? handle? Fifty p A little that's not bad fifty p. Here, is it easy to lift off, it's not that heavy is it? Pull it towards you. Oh. You see we've got some gentlemen here, they'll do it for you. Stuart. Oh it's easy. It's quite heavy. No, right away downwards. Oh, sorry. Downwards. Pull it down. Downwards I'm with you. And mind your fingers. That's it. Then keep pulling it towards you that's it. Oh I'm with you. There we go. Thank you very much. You've done that before. That's how he knackered his thumbs. You made me look at you, I've overlowed his That's how you buggered your thumbs, weren't it, doing that? I was, I was looking to see that you weren't your fingers and dear. what I was worried about. fifties please, in the change or five if you've got them. Oh, look at all that change. I can give you the total of It's alright then, you've got fifty now look. Hi Harry. Hello. Oh, first time I've been out in years on a Friday. Too busy. Erm I'll have a Say, it's not Monday already. Can I have a er I'll have a pint of lager please. Another shock I've had today. Three of you came in Friday either. No I'm trying to clear the decks before christmas. Oh. Three weeks hence. Another working weekend. Good. Well I thought you'd come cos I very rarely get many people in much before er On the top. . Oh. If you pull the cord on the light, your light'll come on then you'll be able to see what you're doing. Put the light on . Over here, over here . This the other side. There's a little s cord. Hello Alan, how are you keeping, alright? Fine. Yourself? Busy busy busy. Well, that's your problem. find the timer. Yeah. You will go in for these educational The way I play five minutes. Pull it in, she ain't pulled You have to pull that, you have to pull the handle out and it don't start. Now then, Right let's have a go. We'll have a crack at it shall we? then you pull the handle. Which one? This one? Yeah. That's it. Got it? That's it. That hasn't worked. Hey, Er the keys haven't popped up have they? No, I think you have to put them up yourself. No, surely You do. it's not manual is it? It's, well it's not digital yet. Yeah, now you're on the timer Grace. Now I'm on a timer Now you pull the now you the handle. Which one? Which handle? No, I said now you timer Oh now I pull it. So you want a stick. You want a st a a cue. Yes. god only knows. There are shorter ones in the broom cupboard. Oh. Oh I don't know about that. That's Sorry? You don't knock the skittles down. That's the idea. Ah dear. Now put your ball up on there Which one? Oh white ones? Yeah. And where do I go for on there? You don't. You missed. Now the red ball counts double. Yeah. And here's your scores look. Right. I'm with you. That's fifty. Ah How do you play this? Oh dear. while I've got a minute. Oooh. Keep your score in your mind cos I'm not sure of it. Well you've got You got and one and one, which one do you get this one? Ah it doesn't matter, we're losing pet. Oh don't cheat. That's a foul. She gets a hundred. Oh! Left the table. Go on then. What do you mean, left the table? It didn't. Well it went up in the air. It hit the back doors Doesn't matter. that's a to her. Yes it does. She gets a hundred. Oh, hundred away. Hundred away. I lose my score obviously? Yeah. No you lose the score you've got but she gets a hundred. Yeah well it saves me counting, don't it? Hit the ball you can see without knocking th , without knocking the other skittle Grace. Just keep it at that. She's played this game before, look. Oh! Dear oh dear. Not quite hard enough Grace. If that had been a bit harder then Well put your hundred up. Oh what did I do? Oh me hundred. Which is mine, bottom or top? And what did you get just now? Hundred. Well you can be top or bottom. Yeah, I'm bottom. Did you get any score just now? Yes. What did you get? Don't think so. nothing went down did it? Yeah it did, it went down ooh What was it? Er twenty odd weren't it? Thirty odd, I dunno. Call it twenty. Ten here, this side and a hundred up there. No you wanna be both on the same line, okay? Well that's what I mean. Ten then there Yeah. and a hundred there? Yeah. That's it. Thirty. Is that right? I think I ought Steve Davis. Yeah, put a bit of chalk on the end. Ooh dear. score mister. thirty forty forty and twenty sixty. Sixty. ten. hundred and ten. for you Grace then . He's getting too cocky. Getting too cocky,. She's played it before. not a lot more than me . played it about once . Two hundred. encourages me to make a comeback. Ooh! That's the last thing I wanted. Two eighty. Two eighty to play for Al. Just to let you know. A good player could be out of this easy. Easy. I could actually. I've seen so many people do it. Ooh. Oh dear. Oh dear. She gets another hundred. Mm. I like them like that. Oh sorry. You can win this Grace.. I doubt it, I doubt it. Red, red ball Grace. Where are you, on the bottom Grace? Oh sorry. Red ball. A red one? Oh you've got to put the red one up near this? Well yeah, I mean there's there's no fast rule about having the red one but it scores you double. Shirley give her give her a little bit of coaching on the angles and things Well I wouldn't know Terry. You know me. Neither do I. So he's got a hundred now. Oh why? didn't hit the ball. Ah Next time round. I didn't know. Ah. I see. You've got to go for a ball that's on the table. You've got to hit a ball. Oh. Right. So have I, so I've lost that hundred he gave me? I went to have a go last time and missed it. Oh. red ball . If the red ball goes down the edge of the white ball? Oh no no no no. You have to you you have to make contact to As long as you make contact you're okay. Right. Alan's got problems. No, I shouldn't have problems. I just dropped that silly shot and cocked it didn't I? yeah. So you don't go there again. It's a second chance. No that's I can't remember where I went after this. And the timer's going. Yes, come on. Don't talk about it, play it. Time. It's gonna be crucial at the end of the game. Oh. Red ball on the spot, Grace. And your white And the white, white on the that's it. There? You've got to start again cos Yes. So I've got to hit this red? Yeah. Yeah. Just split that nice and soft, not too hard. Perfect. Oh you've definitely played this before. Oh I see. Now I've got to this one? You could tell that one Nice and soft. Oh! Oh you didn't of it Grace. Another goes down. Do we get any chalk? Yeah look. For that fifty pence. It's in the corner look. Oh. Er Trish and Ron lost on Tuesday. Oh, weep weep. I weep. How badly? Yeah I just thought I'd tell you. How badly? Absolute zilch. Oh. Who was at who was at fault? Pardon? Who was at fault? What's that, ten? Pardon? She skittled at the last. Did she? Oh. Was that ten, yeah. Ten. Seven. Seven. Mm? Seven. Cos your red ball went down it counts double. I thought a red ball was thirty? Well if it, it it, down which? If it goes down a thirty hole, it'll be sixty won't it cos it's double score. Did er Trish play the table? Oh. You know Trish! Well table first, Ron second. Oh got a It's a gentle I bet we have to buy the I bet we have to buy the umpire a drink at the end. You damn well do. How did you guess? Shirley. What, table first Ron second, or? Erm it it's a silly table Red's gone down. oh. Sixty. Yeah but look at where the weight is though darling. So you've got to hit that white one. You have to hit the white one now. Shirley. If it was a silly table? Even if it's a stupid table, hang on Dead right down didn't tell Lee. She didn't say to me., You've got to go to one side Grace. One side? Yeah. Oh. Definitely not. Not there. Definitely not there. Let's get serious Grace. me, cos I haven't got me glasses on. You know how she You know how That's it. If that was it would have been what do they call it? Take it again foul shot. You know how they're always shouting at me because I hit them too hard? Mm. That was the only way. Oh what yeah. If you did that you you'd get nothing. Like that. Absolute nothing. There's a red yours darling. So slow. Did John turn out? No. Thank god for that . No it was so slow. The only way we Like sort of ploughing through a field or erm yeah The only way to get a score was to hammer it. Oh. That one wasn't bad actually Grace. Who was that you played? But it didn't go through. Tartan. Oh. say if you did it slow Mm. it, you know? Yeah. And you'll have to take time to do Terry . What was that? Twenty? I dunno. about you putting your score up because I Well I'll say twenty. Harold said twenty. Alan old score twenty How do you get twenty for that one when it went in that hole? Argue with Shirley not me. Shirley said twenty, that's good enough for me. Er five. Six. Alright then we'll compromise. Is it? Yeah Mm? Oh well they're uncivilized aren't they? Oh! Six. Six. Not too hard Grace and just keep on potting them down. Oh well I'll try. Which is mine? Do you know? Top. You're the top. Top. Ooh. Ooh darling. You've missed that Six on here? No. No no no no no no, no. On the the other one. Six on the other one. No, on the tens. On the tens. Six sixty. Sixty you got, you That's it. Cheat you'd have to be cheating or they wouldn't Well it can't be six hundred odd can it? Well you can. My god, what's Ah! Ooh! Well you bollocksed you bollocksed that didn't you? No. Gently. Soft. Bit harder. A little bit harder. . Just a little bit. over there now. Yeah Okay. Right hand side of the red. Yes the touch has come. Grace. Just a little bit harder. Oh ooh. Ooh. Oh wonderful shot. Was that good or bad? Six seven, you got two hundred just then. two seventy. That one was worth two hundred. Yeah, two hundred and Seventy. The white in, er white one in there as well didn't she? Yeah I counted that. Oh. Don't rob me. Now take it easy. Don't get panicky. Oh! You score darling. Do I? Oh That's scored. Right. I'll turn that down a bit. Yeah, please. What did you think about them? don't leave me to . go and get another pint. I'll erm at the same time alright? Every time if you miss a shot Yeah. totally every time Put the white one down the red . Did anybody count . Six. Six. Yeah I'm gonna beat I think. And then five card nine card brag afterwards. Do you think so? Yeah. Huh! What makes you so confident? Just feeling lucky. What? What's the matter? What's happened to your twenty three P? Oh. And and a bit of loose change as well. Tell me about it. Oh not now Shirl. Later dear, later. Er twenty five. Did you? No, see you can pull them across here look Have you had your twenty three P? Or have you g paid your twenty three P? Hey! Not yet. We had an excuse. We're, we're on holiday so Oh well, Yeah . It's an excuse innit? I've got an excuse Twist to the right hand side of the red. That's it. Not far enough. You're hitting it too hard Grace. But there again you're getting about ten Do I have to use the red one all the time? Well the red's beneficial. You you you don't, you don't have to. Oh I see. But it's double score. I see. Beneficial. So if you sort of went and it should Who's in front actually? Grace. Ooh! What an excellent shot. Erm yeah. Doesn't help you though. Bloody hell It doesn't help your score. Well there's two up there so because she can only get one. Been conning me. What do you mean, been conning you? Oh the red's in play as well is it? Mm it is. She's playing for time now you see. Yes. playing for time again. Whoa! You're in the lead. Whoops-a-daisy. Whenever you do that Grace it means a non score. just rub it in Al, I'm sorry. Lampposts I call them, what do you call them? I see us coming second. Skittles. All you've gotta do is roll up and you've won. Yeah you don't have to even put it anywhere. Beg your pardon? Good shot. He's gotta do all the It's gone up now hasn't it, the No. balls are still coming down. Harold's gotta do all the work now. I don't well he could catch up. He could. Er he had more . Lot more If you, if you don't knock a skittle down, Grace, you've won. Oh. Basically. No. Go for what you can see Grace. That's what I'm going You can have a game. That red's a good Not tonight. good . Oh yes. When it's quiet. No no no. Foul shot. I never saw that. No, take it again Grace. You sure? I never saw that. Cheat. We weren't looking at the time. Two hundred now. Not when he's told me he was playing on somebody else's table and not gonna have a game. I'm not having that. Oh so vicious Oh. so hard, so strong, so powerful. Foul shot. Missed. Don't do too many of them No good. don't do too many of them he'll he'll catch up if you do I know. Pardon me. Five out. Oh I Look at that red one on there? Yeah. That's not on is it? Mm. It's not touching either so you can play it. Keep away from it Grace. Miss a shot. So what do you do now there's no balls on the table? Pray. Pray! I'm going for easy shots . That's seven anyway. This one? Oh no there's one in here. There's one in here, so Yeah we were and I didn't know how to go for this fifty one on the . Or I didn't know where to go next. Have to have a red Nearest. No, oh the red's There was Tony here like this He was supposed to be scoring. Not supposed to coach from the sidelines No. and there was him with his finger hanging over the side. Oh. white up there. other two whites. Oh dear. Did you get this one? count it? No. Ooh. How did you hit that one first? Grace. You haven't played a single ball off our cushion yet have you? No. I'm not that good. Just try it. Yeah just try it. I'll try, I will though , yeah. at the top there. It's so easy. Don't lose your position and you've won the game. Have a crack at it Shut up. If you don't think you can get one just I will go for, try for that one though Sh Shirley. Oh sorry, I'm interrupting, I'm interrupting. What did you say pet? That's the one. Just take the bloody ball. You won it. Well I hit the ball you're winning. The gate's on now. Ah. Ah.. Ah. That's it now. Points for points there,. He's he's he's he's lost it there. He's Erm can I take any? Erm Or not? Nearest nearest white. Yeah, the nearest white . Yeah. His nerve's gone Grace. You've won it. Just keep your head. Not necessarily. Or something. Just hit the ball. That's the way, that's the way. for a chance. You'll count it though won't you because Oh I've counted it. Are you counting? Are you counting somebody? The nearest, the nearest white. Twenty. Thirty. Forty. Forty will do. Just roll up to that one Grace. Just hit the ball. No no no no the one you can see. Softly. That's it. Do you ever feel as though you're being ganged up on? Not too hard. Just roll up No. two go down. That'll do. Ooh. No. That'll do. Now the nearest, the nearest one. The nearest one. Which is that one? That's it. I want thirty? I was playing for that . Ooh you set them up beautifully Grace. Look at that. How do you do thirty on here? Well count, how many Three on the bottom. Well that one, which, which are you there? I'm on That one? Well go there go to there. And that one will And a hundred. to there. Where? Another hundred. The other way, that's it. Oh. That's it. Som someone hasn't got their specs on tonight. thirty to me you know what you've got Yeah but you got thirty on You had seven hundred and eighty. which makes it a hundred and ten. Ah. We're on your side. We're ganging up on Alan. You've got another hundred now, so That's it, got another hundred. take the nearest one. Is it alright if I make a comment? Grace? Grace? Take it off the cushion. Yeah. Your bound to hit one of them. round about there. Somewhere round about there. Probably a bit here or there. I've lost now. Now you can see that one Put them both down together darling. Yeah either one down or both down. Oh I missed it. That's Alan's problem then. I've lost haven't I? go off the cushion. What cushion? Ooh clever clogs . That's what he was waiting for. Good though, I enjoyed that. Well have another one then. I'll enjoy it better than er pool for a change Clever clogs. Aren't we? He was hanging off that red ball for a four hundred at the end though cos There's not many people get that two hundred Right then dear. So you're gonna beat me are you? Yeah gonna beat you. You sure about that? Yes, I'm going to beat you. No, are you? I thought you played very well Grace . Alright? Do you wanna game? No. Do you wanna game . Oh rubbish Alan He tells me lies as well. It's the same rate. What, for a pint? Now I'm, I'm gonna play you for the sake of the game. Alright. What are we playing for? He tells lies as well Alan,. A penny a point. Don't take any notice . A penny a point. Big gambling eh, what? There you are then dear,. Five. Fifteen for two. My box. Thank goodness. two three three four four five five six six . And I'll have the yellow ones. The yellow ones? Just oh bloody hell. The yellow ones were thrown. What do I do? Well I don't know. Ain't got me glasses either. Poor old thing. She lost them. Got to put two out haven't I? But she lost them, she . downstairs. We won't mention it. Oh you want a light on Alan don't you? See where you're putting it. Shirley. Straight game? Yeah, they lost the first one. Yeah. And the second one. I don't know what to do. Erm because it was a dreadful table. If I keep this hand I've got now I've got two four six eight ten. I've got a dozen. All six cards? Yeah. Yeah I know, but which two? Ah well. There you are. If I don't look out might So it goes on the four of that, turn that up. Yeah well I can't tell you unless I've got them can I? Shall I put them two in?then I've got six. I'll put them two in. Well you've got to put your you've got to put your hand down and hope you turn the rest turn up with the rest of the box. Right two four six eight. Then oh bugger it. Top one dear. And that hasn't helped at all. Oh well, never mind. See one play one. Twenty two twenty seven, twenty eight twenty nine that's right. You want the you want the you want fifty on three. You want the yellow ones? Yes? Yes. Two four six. Put them down the hole. Well . Alright now? Well it don't matter does it Well it don't matter now. Er fifteen four ten six two eight. Oh. Well at least I got something cos I put two queens and that's what I had. Ten. ten. Did I put me king, the ten Yeah that's what, that's what . Yeah. But I wanted some of me boxes as well I suppose. Oh, so I done it wrong? Well it's not what I would have done But actually but there you go. I've got six in the box. That's what I would have done but But I didn't know you see, I Course not, no. I couldn't work it out. I think I would have been tempted to do that. I didn't know whether to put two blue queens in or ten things or Mm. Yeah. a king and queen. In which case had both. Oh, it's like that is it? Mhm. My box. Oh god. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter who goes first. Who goes first if you win the toss? Shirley says. What? Heads or tails? Tails. I can't score, I'm useless at maths. Oh bloody hell. It's impossible, I can't do it. And them two go together, them two go together and them two go together. All of them go together and these two are a pair. Well what can I say? Exactly. I'm useless at maths. Now don't get too many balls down too many holes at once. I'll have to take a chance won't I? Mm well that's up to you isn't it? Play Well I've got to somehow. I've gotta Jack Mm that won't help me. Your It'd have been better if I'd kept them two. your lead . Sixteen. I'm going to do a Terry now when we play on Monday nights. Don't do it like that. Can I suggest something. Fifteen two Go on I know I've done that wrong. Four. . Four. Fifteen sixteen fourteen ten fifteen twelve so it's fourteen Oh. seventeen. Five ten fifteen sixteen seventeen. Nice little turn that. Oh bloody hell. Oh I don't like this, it's not fair. You're not playing fair. I am No you're not cos I didn't know what to put in the box. You did right. And bought it Oh yeah not right for me. No. I'd have been better off keeping that one two. I had two sixes, two queens one two. Well I didn't know. Here you are I've got your two queens and hope for your turn up or you put your one to it. Simple as that. The queen six and hope for turn up. That would split, split your hand up totally. Mm that's why I was yeah. Yes well I didn't know you see. If I don't like playing singles, easy as doubles because you only have to put one in and it's easier. One in yeah. He's not a gentleman. I know. I was just lucky with a turn up though. That's all. Just lucky with a turn up. Come on, stop wasting time. I think I wouldn't Top one Mm try seven. Oh I thought I was then. I'm a gentleman. Fifteen and ten. Twenty eight. I'm on a run now . Twenty nine? No. I don't think I've got anything. Fifteen two fifteen four. That's all I've got. I've I've got four . I four. Oh erm fifteen two four six. Mm nothing in the box. Fifteen two and four is six. Nothing in the box. Five six. You've got nothing at all? Ooh nothing at all. That's a shame isn't it? blooming street ahead nearly. No, not quite. Well. Oh it went way out. Yeah but it was shot. Wasn't meant that one. Well it got there. Yeah. Is that ball touching Shirley? No. It's it's too late to ask I know. I've got to pay for a turn How about a six? No well. Terrible. Not getting any hands. Go on then, I'll take a chance, I mean I'll you thirty for six, no? Thirty? Any aces? No. No. Thirty for one. I ain't got nothing cos I can't get anything. Two then. Twenty two for two. Nine will do for two. Oh and I'll have one for the last card. Hang on, two four nothing. Two and two is four. Ten jack queen for three. I can't get a good hand. Twenty two twenty four twenty six. Street ahead. Over. No. You are. You are, you're over a street ahead. Not quite. Not quite. Not quite. I haven't a chance in hell. Think we'll cancel this game. Don't give up straight away darling. There's plenty of time to go yet. Oh I don't know. I've no idea. Waste of time playing. One. That's not very good is it? No. Got a seven. Aye another one, go on put the third one down. Might as well. Yes. Eighteen. alright. play though can you? Six. I haven't got very many. two. I've got fifteen two and four is six, four of diamonds. Thank you dear. So I've got one three in. Oh well there you are.. That's a bit better. Are you caught up now? No, that thirty was meant but not th not not the other one. I'll be honest there. That was an an extra. Am I in a good position? On your knees is better. Oh! I only wanna give you one. Ah! Now that was tried for. That was meant. I tell lies as well. I'm walking home. It was, seriously. thirty nine isn't it? Oh it's awful. Oh dear oh dear. Thirty nine. Yeah. There's four. Don't do nothing for me. How many did you get? I don't know. Just let's have a look. No Yes I can, I can't remember. No you, no you can't. Oh I should have kept the other one. You'll . Go on I'll take a chance. Oh bloody hell, every time I've one down Thirty one for two. Oh twelve. Three for two. I had a two as well. Oh dear. Mm. Fifteen, two Very very lucky but Two for six eight ten. I reckon you've won the box. Nothing. I'm glad I I'm glad I didn't listen to you Shirley. Who's winning? I didn't say, I just said it was gettable. No no, yes yes. I know. Who's winning? What do you want? Two and a one don't you? Two, two four. Two six. No two three six. Queen king two three six. I've got eight two four s oh two six oh you should put king six on. Kept jack queen three and three two. Your box dear. Yeah and I would have got nothing. Four. Oh yeah. You would have had four. Oh admittedly you would have been pig sick when a king would have, but even if the king had turned up you'd have still got the, got a run and fifteen. Ace turned up you'd have got the run four turns up you get your runs. Ten turns up, another jack, queen. Well I've done, didn't do it right did I? So there, hadn't got any turned up. Well I mean yes Didn't I? There you go. Oh now I'm definitely not giving you nothing. It's your box. Cos I've got a straight run through. It's your box. Seven six five four three It's your box! Well how, I don't bloody well know what to put in it. I haven't the faintest idea, look three four five six seven eight. No question. Easy. Oh well it weren't to me cos I probably would have given you the eight No my, it's your box. Try a nine. You know what I've got now anyway so it don't matter. Oh no I would have played the nine anyway. Twenty five. Don't talk about it, do it. Two four . Six tens. What are you up? Are you gonna do . Box. Two in there so Oh you're putting . It's no quite easy. Then you've got the four three four five six seven eight and it's your box play the seven. They're the same suit, they're close, they'd score. If it'd been my box yeah it's eight three. But your box you, you gotta keep four five six because any four any five or any six you can . Well yeah but I I'm alright now. I'm cos I can see balls in front of me. Yeah, right. So you've gotta keep your four five six and I say it's your box, seven eight has got to be the It's very easy this. Gotta be. Easy. So we'll try and lead Al with that one again. Oh sh I give you that and it's probably a big mistake. But I hadn't any choice. I like you. Thank you. No, that's not right. You do, you try doing what you're telling other people. What, Thirteen. No I'm not. I'm gonna try and work round it. I don't know, honestly I don't. That's that's a bad shot isn't it? But you I know, oh sorry, yeah. you're well in front. Seven. I'm well in front and I can easy just lose the hundred but I I'll try for it without trying to knock down too many skittles. There you are, handy little turn up. Fifteen two six sixteen. Sixteen. I didn't realize that the ball couldn't hit the table. There you are, look at that. Four now. You want you wanted to discontinue? Fifteen two fifteen four fifteen Yeah here we go. Come on then. Fifteen two fifteen four and a pair of six. Yeah. Whoa! What a And got a ball down. And that's a complete accident. Come on then. Fourteen God that makes me look like a good player that, doesn't it? . Shirl, any time you want me in the team. That was a good shot though, wasn't it? Well, I think I got It's your first take. Give you fifteen. Oh I've bloody hell,. If, if I was playing a game I would actually somebody else. Ah! . Done it. I was trying for that one. Didn't that work out? So I need to take six. Oh I, I was trying to get it up there. Oh it's my, is it your box? Yeah. Won't matter will it? Not really. You need fifteen. Oh what do I do? I don't know how it counts, that's four seven eight nine Got to try holding as many as you can really. I know but I don't know how many many is . That's three. You started it. Yes. Alright alright alright. What's the chances of one of them coming up? Well if it if it gives you the required amount or I don't know how to work it out. Look Mm well that's a problem isn't it? Keep them and one of them in case you get another three or a six. oh oh oh oh oh That's only four though innit you see? No, yeah. That's what I said, to do that and hope for a three or a six or another five or a king. You want a six preferably or a king or five, yeah. Two for jacks. Oh . It's your lead then. Good shot. Oh! I'm Six sixteen, twenty two. Cor I'm not, I'm not gonna risk that. Two twenty eight. You know I haven't got it. you got a dozen though. Not enough though. Not quite. You've done it anyway. Yeah Fifteen two fifteen four fifteen six two three four six eight, two's ten. Threepence after all that dear. Three P. That was quite a good game actually, in the end. Three P Didn't I have some bloody funny hands? Yeah. Awkward hands to work out. Oh yeah I'd I'd agree with you. Threepence then dear. You owe me. Threepence I owe you. Threepence you owe me. My box? Yeah. Yeah. Cor, something's shaved that one over a little bit. Mm It's . You wanna Put four ten. That's a lovely table Alan. Nineteen. Jack nine. Thirty, no? Ooh! That was good playing that was. That was a good shot. Oh I'm sorry you did didn't you? Ever so close wasn't it? Yeah it was a good shot. You know one . Yeah. Trying to yeah. Oh well, what do you do when you're seven hundred behind? two. Twenty for two and the rest three. table isn't it? oh sorry I've got to get, move another way. Fifteen two fifteen four fifteen six sixteen, eight two is ten? Yeah yeah I'm trying out shots, that's all. Ten. Fifteen two fifteen four fifteen six fourteen. Tut oh ah I can't win no matter what I do. Well you're not . All the balls are on the table actually. Least I know what to put in the box. Cos I worked out that was fifteen and there were a picture go . Yeah. I need ten. Or a three or a six. At least I'd erm four five, what two in one. You know and that's Yeah. Yeah. Any ten you wanted didn't you? Yeah or a I mean you got the ten you wanted. But er Or a six. a six or so I knew what, that the nine was no good to me or the Yeah, yeah. s six. Who put the fifty pence in there? Who put the fifty pence in there? Who asked me to? Yeah you go and stand in a corner in a minute. No I didn't. Go to the headmaster. Oh bloody hell. Can't do that seeing it's your box. Got to get in closer to that. And I'm hoping as well. It's anybody's game isn't it, really? Yeah. Anybody's game. It's nice though what it's all about. Try two. In thirty. Someone's gonna crack. You don't get interest Just th just the turn up I wanted,or a five. Yeah I wasn't too bad. eight. Seven eight. Oh you got one two three four five six seven eight nine ten, ten. Nothing in the box. Ten. One for Try whatever you like dear. If you can see it, hit it. Well I can't see it so I'm going round , I'm going round the back. I'm in the lead. Not by many but I'm in the lead. I can see you're in the lead. It's where you usually are dear. That was a crafty move that. Have the been in any more since erm Monday? Yeah they came up Oh so they're all Oh bloody hell. They've fallen out haven't they? Mm. Can't do that See what happens if I give you them. Like that . You're alright you won't hit got your box so you're alright. I would if I give you them. How do you know I won't? Cos I know cos of what I've put in Oh I'll have to put you a pair in you two. Probably eight probably. Hope you put the right pair in . Oh good. I ain't got nothing so oh I didn't know what to put in. Thirteen. Twenty five. Thirty yeah, couldn't get away from it. Thirty. Want four No That stirred it up a b oh. Good shot! I only want four. Oh the last card. Have you got four? Sorry? Didn't know what to give you. I got to give you two eights. Oh that's alright. Yeah, you wouldn't let me box. What are you putting, two sevens? Fifteen two No . Fifteen two fifteen four four's eight. And a nine there. If you put two eights in I did put another eight in, but that's six or eight. Didn't know what to do. Cos I'll have two Well for two eights or like that for four that way, so. yeah, yeah. That's all I had. Yeah. It's difficult. It's your box Ann. I thought you said he he lost by a hundred. No, what did he lose by? Er eight hundred and fifty. He lost by? I I played canny at the end rather than by that many, surely? Yeah he did. You kept giving him a hundred. By not hitting the ball. That's where it all mounts up. You know you keep giving, if you keep missing the ball. Yeah, it does. Yeah. Good though. Have you done? Can I get up? Yes, yeah. Thanks very much. want a game Bob? What? Do you want a go? I can't afford another game of that. He owes you a pint now doesn't he? Is it coming out for you? Four Put your other one down. Alright then, I will this time. Twelve. Ten. Ooh. Twenty five. . One. Ooh bloody hell. What have you got, have you, have you got a hand? I'd better get mine on quick fifteen two fifteen four six pairs eight. Five six twelve eight. How many have you got? Bloody hell. Fifteen two fifteen four two six eight fourteen. Six in the box. six in the box. Now who's in the lead? I knew what to do with that one you see? Now who's in the lead? I knew what to do with that one. Specially when the five come up, I thought I'll put the blooming Two tens. Exactly, ten in there. Now who's in the lead? I could have had two thousand points ahead and John was on the skittle. I like that . Yeah, they did last night, it Yeah. Yeah. They did that last night. Yeah. Couple of their best players as well. playing that. Yeah. I like it when It does tend to come twenty forty Now then. Your lead dear. You're a gentleman. Thankyou. Eleven. Fifteen Well you have to keep your balls on the table. Pardon? Twenty five. He he doesn't put his balls on the table. Neither do you. Six. And it's his go first this time isn't it? I tell you. Well I dunno, doubt if I've got any even. Oh. Oh, does it make any difference, actually? Er well No it doesn't make any difference Fifteen two fifteen four fifteen eight. One two three four five six seven eight nine ten. That's a big difference. No. Erm It's just the way it's always been I suppose people are are playing I'll have a queen four, king ten and four in. You know played aces and fours so two. Two. Oh I'll just sneak back one. Sneak . But it can work. When when people table they keep on potting thirty thirty all the time Oh sorry, you've got cue I just took one over there. Could be yours. Do you want this one? You can have it. No sit there cos red to there, white to there. Five times six Now who's on where? You started first so you're on a Alan got off to a less than Bad start. auspicious start. So Alan started first so he on top. No erm I'm I'm on top. I'm I'm on the bottom. Well he gave you a hundred. Yeah he's skilled. Still wanna play one? So you're on the bottom? Yeah I'm on the bottom. Yeah I've got four down. he's started so he's on top. Exactly. There you are. Yeah Yeah that's right. Twenty for two. I've got four so far Shirley. I know what I'm doing. Frankie goes to Hollywood. . Twenty nine. Don't upset the cos we'll be back at you could toss a coin in under there. Thirty fifteen two, fifteen six is eight. Fifteen two six. Hello. Hello Alright Sid? Alright Frank. You're back in the lead dear. You're favourite. You're favourite to win this one. Depends on what the cards do. Frank? Yeah, the number of your hands are the number of your hands to mine. She's refereeing . No erm because Oh god. that's four and I won't do anything Alright you're cheating me. No Hello Sid. Hallo chief. Alright? Teasing me. No certainly bloody not. I'm not that bloody good Alan . Eleven. I don't know how to play the game. Oops. Your lead. that tap hasn't he? That's Strongbow Oh I'm you silly boy. Your lager's the other end. You know what's Where've you been? I've I've been Twenty two. You know why? Cos I was served a pint up last night in our social club. And their pump's on that end. Twenty six . So I have to do this job everywhere I go Bloody hell you've got about four fives . No. I've only got two of them. You're alright though. You till I've got one. Don't make a mess. I've got fifteen, yeah . Fifteen two fifteen four four's eight. Fifteen two fifteen four Well, I could do with a good box and that might put me in with a chance. Fifteen two fifteen four fifteen six. Outside chance though. Thirteen Stop yakking and get on with it. I suppose I've got to get the ice out as well have I? Ah! Ooh! Two middles and a paper one here please. No. Oh no. Now what do I do? Oh no. Oh god. Oh. That was absolutely lousy. I couldn't understand why you didn't do that in the first place. I'm sorry, it's taking me a long time cos I don't know what to do. It's alright. Take as long as you like. Well. Someone's gotta do something about that Brian,? I think I've gotta do that. That's probably wrong but Top one, top one, top one. Oh! It is. King. I've done the wrong one I think. Twenty eight. Oh no. Twenty nine for one. Eleven. Four is all I have. Fifteen two fifteen four, one two three four. Well that's alright isn't it? Fifteen two fifteen a dozen. I know. I pu I had five. You've got a dozen in there as well. You win. But I had Yeah but you've won! but I had Yeah. What did you do wrong there? and I had What nine five? No you didn't have nine five. No I had three nine. Twenty nine. Three five sorry. Three five. I didn't know whether to put that out or er No. No no. I done it right? Perfect. Absolutely perfect. Thank god for that. No you, it's your box. I know it is. Box away yes. Not your box definitely eight three but three five on your own box, oh yeah. Close you put the five in keep What you've gotta keep your double run? You're keeping a good, yeah you're keep you're keeping your double run that way as well but Yeah you're not scoring so many because you've got your fifteen at the end there. But oh yeah, oh yeah. Absolutely. And I won. Yeah you got a dozen in your box. Wallop. Straight in. Bang bang, two hands, thank you ma'am. Ha! It's your box still. Oh, how many's that? Five six seven eight. Erm five. can I just go to the Yes I do, I do. . Teetering. It's my box isn't it? Yes. You teetered. Oh thanks Al. Don't worry Bob. Don't worry. It's only a little bit of cigarette ash Oh it's probably from me from me own cigarette. Don't worry. I'm sure I shall have worse than that before I'm done, a bit of fag ash in me drink. Won't be the first time. Won't be the first time Bob. Oh, this is a real balls-up this one right. So if that thing will shoot off and hit that yes I have. Yes I know. Ah! Too hard. Pretty good. That was, that was almost No I didn't. . Can't have any of these. Ah, play it safe. Oops. Hasn't helped. It's done nothing for the box. Two will play one. Sixteen. Seventeen. Erm twenty. Go on! Yes! Twenty three. Play for Alan. Rubbish. I know what I'm doing. Now, where are we? Fifteen two fifteen four fifteen six and six is a dozen. Ha! Fifteen two fifteen four and sixteen that's eight. Ten in the box. Two greens. Level pegging now then. That's no good on my box. Level pegging. That's no good on my box. Yes it is. It's quite handy for me. Is that touching? No it isn't. Whose box? My box. Oh well. Try those. Not very good, but there you go. So, eight. No good to me. Go on then. Your go. Fifteen two . Twenty five no! No?one. One niner. There's a hundred there, definitely. Ten twenty nine. I'll try my best. A kiss on the left hand cheek of that red ball. Six. Eight. One two three four five six seven eight nine. And that wasn't a bad shot. Fifteen six fifteen four four's eight. Five six seven eight. Not a lot in it. Nothing . Two four Thanks Shirley. Just that little bit harder and that would have gone in there. No How did you get that far ahead? I've got nine you've got eight. I pegged some. Oh. Gonna say, we were level. Ha! You pegged hell of a bloody lot then. About ten? Twelve? No. We were level pegging Yeah. I got nine, you got eight. Yeah, I've taken about four or five. But you're all them in front. I'm only oh half a dozen in front. Course I had the box, don't forget. I only pegged four. Or four more than you. Oh go on. Treat yourself. Treat the box. put the right ones in there darling, you've got a fortune. If you put the right ones in there my love you've got a fortune. Eight. nothing in me hands so it don't make no three Twenty eight two. Oh. Any good? to do that. Yeah. Put the wrong one down. Thirteen. Twenty eight for one. Nine . One two three, four five six, seven eight. Three. Three. Didn't put your tens in the box did you? Oh, look at that. Unlucky eh? Mormon's orchard four, that's all you got out of that lot. If you'd put one of them tens in with that turn up you gotta . I put ace four in. And I put ace two in. And when that and when that four turned up I thought oh bloody hell. If you put a ten in there you're well away. Any ten you got half a doz. Oh well, spoils a good hand but there you go. Here we go. Twelve. Eight hundred and sixty now. Oh dear. Don't know if you put a five down there, I already had it. Twenty seven. Twenty eight, thirty. Might as well turn for a dozen. Bloody hell. How do you keep getting them? Only got two in the box though. You always get a dozen or fourteen, sixteen You do. Oh we didn't do that. We didn't do it. No out the book. out the book. There weren't any, many of us so we didn't do it. By the end, it was quite fun in the end weren't it? Yeah. Well we enjoyed what we did didn't we? Yeah, it was really good fun. There weren't, we did it singly and it made more people didn't it? Yeah, yeah. There was Tracey and John and Bob and Sorry Alan. Four. Oh. Fiddle-dee-dee, now what do I do? Your box isn't it?seeing as it's your box. Oh. No help at all. No. Twenty five. No. No?waste paper . All yours. Four Not a lot. Not a lot. What have you got? Fifteen two fifteen four pay six. tops. You jammy bugger. It's only six. Yeah I know but I didn't think I treat I thought no I'll go safe put them far then you just happened to put two three in the of two king. Yeah. Nearly caught up again. Not that far behind. Far enough. It's your box. get very many this time. no competition. Mm that looks, sounds really nice. Oh god I don't know. Shirley's throwing the balls down the table at you. Should keep that I think. think. Hi Neil. Hi Shirl. Alright? Hallo Dave. Hallo matey. Alright? Turn me one up my darling. Ring the bell Neil. . I'll have half. Your lead darling. Fifteen for two. Lager shandy. Pint? Yeah. Mm! for two. Twenty nine for two. Tut. No. No. Nine. What have you got? Fifteen two fifteen four and six pair's eight. Give too many secrets away Shirl. Oh fair enough then. Fifteen two fifteen four fifteen six two is eight . Mm and I give you some in the box as well so you that's it, done. No it's not many in here. Twenty two twenty four twenty six. Did they win Shirl? Yeah, unfortunately. Really what you want to do is make him hit the ball up. Oh. Treat the box? Yeah go on, she's behind. Treat the box. Put the right ones in there my darling you've got a fortune. Turn the top I doubt if it's right. Turn the top one over darling. I'm sure it's wrong. Three. No I'm not doing it. For fourteen. Nineteen. Four ten five. Right, oh Oh thankyou. One two three, four five six, seven eight nine and six is fifteen. Five Fifteen. . One two and three is five. is five. Six eight nine in the box. One two three, four five six, seven eight nine. Oh yeah. Told you. I told you didn't I? I'm favourite to win though. But Told you you put put ten, I put jack queen in s same suit and close and everything. Had to for that. Now what do I do? Mm I suppose. ooh it's nine. Mm mm mm mm Never mind. Up to you darling. Nineteen. Well ten. Thirty for three. I know you any others. four. What have you got to finish with? Come on darling. One two three, four five six, seven eight I had another queen as well. Sixteen. Into the box. Oh dear darling. I've had it I know. Street. Oh dear. You already won. two fifteen twenty twenty five thirty thirty five. And I owe you five so that's thirty pence you owe me now isn't it? Yes dear. Whose box? It's one two three, my box. Yeah, my box isn't it? later I suppose. Pass me a goody darling. Pass me a goody. That's not a goody, that's a baddy. That's a goody. No it's not, it's a baddy. Your lead dear. See one, play one. Nineteen. Twenty nine, no? Seven. Twenty four. You jammy bugger. Fifteen two fifteen four fifteen six twenty eight two is ten, six is sixteen and one for his knob, is seventeen. Think I played right that time. I think you did. Two. Can't remember what I put in the box, another picture I think. Yeah but what else with it though? Or did I put a picture or ten? I dunno. No you put four two in. Four two. Four, I mean eight four. Eight four, yeah. And I put a pair of twos in so you didn't very much. I got two. I scored five in that . And you scored all that lot. It's your box now. You're gonna get that thirty pence back plus interest this time aren't you? I doubt it. You'll catch up. No I won't. If, if we were once round then I'd say yes but not Mhm. Oh you can't have any of these. I don't want you to have any of these, so Oh I've got to take a chance on it. No. Turn up. Turn up, please. Seven Teen. Twenty seven. . Seventeen. Twenty seven. Oh six. Two Six. Two four six. That's the other blooming one. Mind you that isn't too bad is it? Oh bloody hell one two three four five six seven eight. Five six seven eight. I'm getting slaughtered Shirley, this time. Are you? Absolutely completely and utterly slaughtered. Bob did yesterday. Bob did yesterday. She said, yeah. Yeah. I'm thirty pence up, but this game I'm getting absolutely trounced. I won him about I don't know it was three or four games . Couldn't go wrong! to get back. A oner. Did you enjoy your little self? Erm makes a change to have a game rather than erm Yeah Thirteen something with an edge to it, you know. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Twenty, twenty five. Thirty? No. Just takes your mind off your troubles for five minutes doesn't it? Queen. No, no I like the game but then I I like to play the game . Mm. That's right. That's what it should be. Well, look at this lot. Fifteen two fifteen four fifteen six two is eight one for his knob is nine. Nine. Fifteen two fifteen four twenty six and three is nine. Keeps her distance . Pop a pair of sixes in don't put, what's on top? Ace . Oh yeah one. Fifteen two fifteen four and a pair is six. Bubye. See you Grace, see you Al. See you again. Teach how to play that game will you? Okay then. Oh dear, well it's all good fun,. Ah. It certainly is. It's all good fun. Hello Harold. Maybe it's getting a bit chilly out there with that door open. There's talk of is it my box? Yes, unfortunately. I haven't heard the weather. And I don't know what er Oh I've got sweet Well we're gonna get a lot of it. Are we? Oh. Okay. No, I can't nothing I can do here. All day. All day? Lot of what? Weather. Oh well, yeah, yes. Seven eight. But what type of weather? I might have known the come on, put the third one down. Ooh sixteen. Twenty five. Oh. They're dim. twenty five. Twenty seven, twenty nine for two. Mm. my other husband. Twenty fifteen two Nothing. Fifteen two fifteen four for seven. Two for ? Yes. Oh dear . Two for fours. Ooh. Caught up now. No. Haven't caught up. I'm still behind. Well hallo! Hello. How the devil are you? Alright thanks. How are you? Alright Johnny? Alright? come to see you. I should damn well think so too. Are you delivering? I don't know you Doug, no. Hello Doug. Oh god. Tut. Can't do that can I? That'll give me four. Gives me four. Oh I'll do it that way and take a chance. I don't know whether I'm doing right or wrong. Oh god I've give you a bloody handful now so that was stupid. let me have a look. Oh I only need ten, well it depends on what you've put in. I give you two. Your lead now. Eight. Eighteen seventeen. Twenty two, twenty nine. Mm . Ann's take, fifteen two fifteen four two six six. I've got two. Have you? No king, ten I've got two queens on I've got to get king jack No put king king ten's fairly safe jack queen is. It's your Yeah but I'm going to keep the two pictures and a five and then you had to put two twos in or two and a six or Yeah, yeah. I don't blooming know and I thought if a seven comes up and I've got five and six and Yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. I thought oh I try to work it out. I can't always. Mm. Whoops, I give you Still well in the lead my love. Oh now again, what do I do? I think I'm supposed to keep that. Top, top. I don't know but I think I'm supposed to, yeah that'll do. King of spuds. Five, four. God. Oh well I've put it down now. Fifteen for two. Seventeen. Twenty for two. Twenty two, twenty three for three. four for two and a go is three. ended up right. Fifteen two fifteen four and five is nine. Five six seven eight nine. Fifteen two fifteen four two a dozen. Six in the box. king in the box. Bloody hell. Six for kings in the box. You did well out of that didn't you? Mm. Stormed back into the a very very handy little lead. Very handy little lead. Is he beating you again? Erm he's beating me two one and then, but I'm winning in this one. Ooh crikey. You've been taking lessons. Thirty pence up I am though. Oh. But she's gonna get some of it back this time. Aren't you dear? No. Mm could go the other way I suppose. Yeah, put that on. Try that one. Give them a, take a chance. Depends what you put in the box. I only Depends what turns up. Mm. Maybe another Four. Oh I've changed my mind. Oh I don't know though. Oh bloody hell, I give you I might as well not be playing now cos I've I've got nothing in me hand. No. Nothing. Your lead. Your lead. Nothing. Nineteen. Only nine, oh got nine in the box as well eh. Twenty nine, thirty. Ah two four one that would have been. Three gets four. Oh well . And nothing. What do you mean, nothing? I haven't got anything. Yes you have. You got one for his knob. One. One for his knob. I only got fifteen two and two is four. put a nine up for that I didn't know what to do. I know. I only got fifteen. Just a minute, just a minute! Fifteen two two is four, give us chance to count them up. You've already got them counted up . What did you have? The nine jack two ace Yeah. Two nines. Why didn't you keep your nine, two nines your jack and put your king ace in the box? Or your king two in the box? I don't know. Cos jacks are not Didn't know what to do with it. It was all Hallo Ray. None of it made sense. Jack two nines and the ten turns up. There was just nothing apart from the two nines was any Oh no. then what do you do? Oh go on, bugger it. Take a chance on it. Turn it up darling. Oh one go one box. Try a jack. Sixteen for two. Twenty six, twenty nine two's in time. look at that. Try a jack. One to one. Fifteen two fifteen four two six two's eight one for his knob is nine. Five six seven eight nine, fifteen for two fifteen four Oh wow! Everything alright mate? I dunno but I got a wonderful hand look wha I'll just show you for a start, cos I'm putting that in the box. Cos it doesn't matter And you know me I wouldn't put that in the box unless What are these? Yeah Quarter to six. Right. Well please yourself, how long it takes you to do it. fifteen, yeah I put them on get a drink On are they Who have you bought then? Oh, five, ten, fifteen, seventeen off thirty. Thirteen pence darling you owe me still. There's a big up there. Please There you are dear. Thank you Now so that's two each, you owe me thirteen pence yes?and it's your box This wonderful person here darling It wasn't. I thought you told me earlier on I was wonderful. You are my love absolutely wonderful don't like those, don't really wanna give you those there are right have I got it on bloody hell mum! Turn it round for you try a niner twenty sixes alright seven put five on there four on this my turn fifteen two, fifteen four fifteen two, fifteen four fifteen two, fifteen four, fifteen six three's nine, that's it,seven, eight, nine fourteen four in the box nineteen, that goes up to fifteen fifteen two, fifteen four, fifteen six good job I'm honest innit? Oh ah. You said four, six Where's six? Eight seven, ten five, seven three five Then take out all of Good job I'm honest isn't it? Cos in a match if that was in a match cos you'd have said you'd have said, fifteen two, fifteen four I wouldn't have said nothing take four, I would have kept quiet but you don't do you? Play in pairs, it's different but when you're just playing singles, you can say or maybe you could sort of friends that go, you'd probably say something like, are you sure? Say, yeah fifty four, right, fair enough You had a choice of an eight or a three I had two jacks and a king you chose the three, the two turned up that would've given you eight and a but you picked the three so that'll give you more in the box as well an three hit your three hit your hand as well so The only reason I've beaten you this time is look at that sixteen Don't even know four one for are you? Got a got a pair of twos there ee by heck!for four and a pair is six well I think I'll have I'm afraid two eights, two o , two eights, two tens and then nine didn't ask for that but I had to throw a pair of twos away for that and go in there you go. I lost the last one and I gave my winnings ha ha. Thank you very much twenty four pee and Last one, ha ha ha. Can't you hear me saying to that They all go in a tin up there John. Oh right. We put them in or in the holiday tin with all the change. so don't make a lot of difference does it? It all goes the same way whe when we went on holiday in O end of Octob end of October it goes Didn't cost us anything. Saving bits and pieces. Oh did you? We paid for the holiday with just with change out of our pocket Cos I went in and purse I empty into my pocket at night Yeah That's what we do you know I'll settle up Yeah you know I don't really want But we erm we we saved two hundred pound and and had a week away About three or four days Well four Four four days four days in the Autumn for that Yeah for just out your change not missed it. What Accommodation, meals and petrol Accommodation,and the petrol all we had to find was Just spending money and he wo had that anyway just what you spent it on as if you were at home. You don't miss it do you, not just putting it in a tin like that. So your prediction did not come true. No it didn't, did it So now what're we playing? Shall I tell them all what I'm doing? No no. No? Oh alright. Won't be bothered so Nobody's even nobody's take any notice. So what're we playing for now? Are we still playing are we? We're playing brag but I ain't got not change. Oh you give it all to me have you? Yeah Only now I've got a five p now. Is that all? Yep. Well play for five. Not playing for tenners, I can't afford that. Well play for penny then. Give me your five p and I'll use five of these and we'll play for penny a time probably win it! I might have sixpence actually but Oh money's Oh I got more than that actually I got about ten p. Ooh dear! Got two fives and tuppence. Oh two fives and tuppence well we'll play for tuppence then. Oh wait a minute. Ooh, wait a minute. Oh! Oh I'm rich. Ooh! And another one. Twenty twenty four pence there. Twenty four but I've paid him he's had his other twenty odd p so ha ha he's had that he's reckons it was ten twenty odd p plus some change we had. Right I've twenty three worth Bob and I got a bit of loose change as well. So you ain't getting no more! That's his lot ! Mhm. That's another one I've got to No she told us, we did ask her. You haven't been paid yet. paid you. Never mind Bob never mind So what are you playing for Ann dear? It's coming off here Keep moving it . What're you playing for then ? Do you want a or what? Oh look at that! Doesn't matter Here are Bob, pound of change please there you go. How are you, alright now? Yeah not too bad now, though. Isn't that Hi Shirley. How are you? Alright mate. is it? Yeah I know. I bought four sets and I'll leave them for you Bob! all these ladies, they're all round him like Blooming heck!look at this lot. Well that's right well that's it. Like me you said. I wish I was twenty years younger. Shirley? John? You've got two, now. I know. How many more do you want. George was in Wednesday night, him and his granddad, By the way you'll be getting stool first things first. Well no spoilt for choice ace, king, queen my full flush He said he might not, you change your will in my favour John Change your what? Will. Won straight away. Nothing funny. It's the way she said it Especially the smile like that. Oh bloody hell! I won the first game makes a change dunnit? Yes dear. It's you that normally wins the first hand and me for the rest. We want some change but it doesn't sound too good. It doesn't does it ! Only five You know those erm chicken breasts Oh very nice. Oh they're very nice, I just had them Can you put them in a roll? Yeah, I could do it, it's not a sandwich. No a burger bun. That's gotta be you as well! Well I don't. There's several being done. Oh yeah, alright I don't want yours In amongst your there's no rush for me Anyone like I'll have the fresh ones Anyone like mayonnaise? Oh thank you very much Can't Mm? Haven't got any plugs I'm afraid. Well I'm sorry I can't erm Sold out, John. feed the girls, start on your own. Old screwdriver now. It's a job for you. Yeah I know. Erm What night shall I come back? Oh sweet sod all! Oh well it's yours. squash Do the pair of pliers take a break in a minute, okay? Mine again. I'm not playing with you tonight, that's it. Oh you're not playing with me now! Played with me this afternoon Don't be stupid Stuart! Stuart! Ha! Going to be rich. One, two, three oh it's alright What's the matter? I asked wrong ah Not a game Aye? I've gotta put another five pounds, you could go on all night then, couldn't it? I ain't got no five Ps to put in. You put those, you ain't got oh no, fair enough just play for the one five P then. I would do if I had any change, you could go and Yeah but only the get me some change if you want. No, too tiring. Oh! Oh this isn't fair! No, I want a three I do I want a three then it'll be mine I ain't got what Ain't on ten ten's got it. Place Nearly was yours nearly was nearly got it I'm supposed to remember when I put these tapes on, half past seven till quarter past eight twenty past eight to when God this is gonna be awful, I shall never start, no leave that. Oh that's a disappointment. Oh heck, heck, heck and double heck! I give up I do. Nothing else I can do Nasty, nasty See you Tom. Keep well. Yes cheers. He's got See you Sunday I expect. Right you are then, Davey Dave Yeah I will, bye. , see you Terry. Yeah bye. Bye. Yes. Bet you don't get a lot of that. Yes. Lucky I had the pair of jacks and gone back to Oy! Four, five, six, seven, eight, nine This is daft playing for five P ha ha. Well we can make it more if you like. Innit though? It all goes the same way doesn't it? Not a this is yours three I've got three pairs, oh and I shouldn't tell you anyway cos you'll bloody beat me anyway, so No I won't beat you. Pair of kings no I've got it wrong. Sorry Pair of eights. How big was your last pair got a pair of fives mine again. Don't take that. Ooh you're getting down to your last tuppence. Then I'm not playing then. Oh I'll play for your last tuppence can't you? Yes dear. Right, one in there, one in there and one in there no no no Oh dear this has gotta be good. I think I won't beat you, look at that one forty two three jacks queen Yahoo! Good job I had a four card had nothing else you know the last three runs Yeah yeah. I had nine, ten, jack, queen, king and a two. Yes. Mhm. Here I goes oh right, one in there oh, one in there, one in there, one in there and one in there yes yeah no no, no. What's it like in the ? Filthy. It still is now. It's absolutely filthy. But I as I say I go in there If you go in the loo there's well for months or during the summer hours counting how many moths was on the window sill and flies, you know, they sort of got more each week when you went and the cobwebs it's wonderful! And Stuart sat down in, because they got these wooden old chairs, haven't they with arms on them and he he sat there like this with his arm and went, I said Stuart whatever's that on your arm? He said, come off the chair and all the along the bottoms of the tables and you can write your name in the dust ! I've got a funny feeling I'm not inviting you round to my house ! No but I mean it is. No really no I as I say I we when I came down here Cos I said to Bob, are they managers or what, cos if they're managers surely Yeah they they get an allowance for somebody to clean and if they've got a cleaner, I mean, they should have sacked them a long while ago ! Oh yeah they have glasses, they stink don't they? It is it's dirty, there's no other word for it. Eight, nine, ten, eleven one, two, three, four jack was good. It is it's disgusting, I mean it could be a nice pub that really the gardens are about this high in weeds. Yeah It isn't now how long's he been Used there? used to be. Well he er Quite a while now really, hasn't he? Yeah We wouldn't go in at a , I wouldn't go in at all, but Stuart's mum used to live right opposite and she likes to go in occasionally cos she sees all her old friends, she don't see them very often so she likes to go in and see all her old friends, otherwise I don't ideally, for me, cos I could Yeah. Half the time that's er, if it's still as bad as it was You ought to go in the Loco. Well that's what he's saying but frankly That's nice in the Loco. frankly, frankly That's where we played last night. Yeah and I said I wished I'd cos of had to come in and Yeah. I think, oh a bit far. Yeah. Okay. It's nice in there Yeah. It's a nice little pub and it's all, it's busy as well and Yeah. It is busy innit? But it's s but it's nice isn't it? Nice atmosphere in there. well last year we went out last New Year,times. Yeah. Best rave we've had Yeah I don't mind the Loco Oh bloody hell! I've got troubles now deep, deep troubles I might as well go in that way round . I haven't got nothing so Neither have I. Don't worry about it. Neither have I. Six, seven, eight. Queen flush. Queen flush. Pair of sixes. Ace, Pair of fours Go onto the . Where abouts do you live then? Oh are they? Well no not that it's the same ! No I didn't know the area when I moved here erm my wife was so it was so er I'm afraid , it's not bad but move closer, just a bit closer. Mm I used to live which is Oh yeah , which part is that? erm not far away Which part is that? Oh yes, I do I know the I know all the roads, I pedal all round that way. Well down the bottom end I live not where the flats and the houses end, that end. No, the other end,yep I got the same chimney as you Wouldn't think so. I do I know so Just from yours. You'll have that and nothing or that and nothing. Oh well ha ha. Which is the highest, ask yourself, that must be three fours. Ha! Two three fours to pair of sixes. Er king king, jack and nothing to go with it. King, queen ten ooh ooh, my king I just beat your king I'm sorry dear sorry dear, quid play this hand and then I'll get you another drink mother would you like another drink? There he goes again. Ooh! Can't sort D'you wanna drink? them out any better four sixes erm and a Ha ten, jack, queen. King flush. Queen flush. Nothing No. Shoo hello dear. Hello Baby. Get you another drink? Would you like another, same again? Yeah. Or do you want something else this time? No. Sure? I'm positive thank you. Certain? I am certain, I may have one before I go over, be real naughty. Twist your arm. I'm dieting before Christmas you see and er Oh God no! Well then a then I ca Don't need it does she? No does she hell as like! Oh you're on holiday for a couple of days, I mean you'd have thought you know, since you're on holiday just have a little drinky or two but no can't persuade her, can't you tell me why you just come out of a Yorkshire pub. Oh if I was up in Yorkshire I would. It's different. It's a pint where we were we were on holiday Ninety nine P a pint it was er er er doub No. No, Yorkshire Tetleys er Tetleys they don't do that. all of them thi Theakstons they were all and double, pound for double spirits they were by the pub what we stayed in stayed at the Black Bull at Boroughbridge. It's a twelfth century haunted inn, it was wonderful, the food What was it called? The Black Bull, Boroughbridge it was wonderful really was and they treat us really, and I mean it wasn't expensive and I had sa fresh salmon and duckling and oh then I And now you're moaning about the diet! came back and put half a stone on, right, diet! Stood on the scales and screamed! It was wonderful, it really was then we went into Yor me he took me to Betty's and York for any more well I got told there's one. Th th there's a place a coffee, tea room place called Betty's in York, there where took me in where you have the head waiter take you to your table, for coffee, you know wonderful! They treat you right up there. Yeah, it's absolutely wonderful, it really is I mean then, so I had to cakes and so on there and never, never stopped eating eating and drinking . I notice your Sausage rolls or something Yes that's er had a for that we cou we stopped there at I've never been up that wa that way at that's about the farthest north I've been one of these coaches erm two, two, two or three times and er and er I'd seen that Betty's on er on television before. It's wonderful. The cakes, the different the dish of cakes! I know. And a tiddly, little just a little plate, you know. Yeah. And a dirty great But when yo when you walk in the door, I mean, first Stuart knew so he that's why he took me in, and we walk in and there's a head waiter would you like a table for two sir would you like a non smoking or a smo and then he showed you to your table and pulled your chair, you know, I mean tha not what you expect in a tea shop or coffee place you know i ha ha and they have proper waitresses with the little hat on, you know she'll get about four tables so they're looking after you and even on your saucer where you had your I mean yo your teapot and everything on the saucer's a little mat so that you don't drip, if it drips That's right. it doesn't go on your clothes, you know the whole works it's absolutely wonderful! You can't fault it, can you? No, and there was Do you know what I mean and the whole place, you know the ladies loos were like er as even a five star hotels, you know ha, wonderful it was, I couldn't believe it! takes longer to get in there Oh yeah there was lots of foreigners, Americans and foreign people there all with maps out on the tables, trying to find their way round York, which I knew that Stuart knew so it wasn't too bad for us, but there's loads of people, you know thought how do we get to this from here and well it's certainly a a an experience. It was er Drunken here. Is there no more bitter lemon? Oh yeah, they're scurrying the cellar for some We've found two more for you. Thank you. Enough to keep you going all night. It's innit? Mhm. And it doesn't say it has to be other people here probably not, every bit of it Mm. but Some of it. Mm. Mm. I can't do much about that, I mean you can't go sticking in other people's noses. No that's true. Oh wrong way round two kings, two eights. Two tens. That's it that's all you got. If I take penny there then, that will all make forty pence, okay? You're not taking all that money are you? You'll start getting back now, now you're back to your last four pence when it comes down you start getting back don't you? Oh, what do I want here? Oh I don't know whether I wanted that Bloody hell! One, two, three on the bounce three, six, eight, jack what's that supposed to be? And a pair of tens jack, queen, king Feel alright? Bloody man, I don't want to see that it's got three on it. Oh boys on it. Well here are, one, two, three on the bounce and I thought well you know that's a fairly good start, jack, queen, king king high was a bit dodgy you never know do you? Oh I've got a handful of bloody pairs here, wait a minute got fo I've only got three feels like a bloody handful of them! Can't do nothing here Ain't got nothing there. Is that what you're playing? Well I have to, I ain't got nothing else. Three fours eight, nine, ten queen high the pairs stuck at the end though dear. Oh not one flush. Must of been Yeah but then it split the bloody pairs all in bits. Yeah, I know, I know yes. Couldn't make a lot with that , could I really? Not really no. there for three pairs which was just as well I stopped you on the last one. Ooh! Ooh! You bugger! Oh I want card for run and I bet I can't bloody do owt with this lot. No neither can I. Can't even bloody hell! Ain't got eight ha ha. Nope No how's it going? I don't bloody know how to play ! Wanna play one, two, three, four, five, six and haven't you? Yes. Or five six seven and that's what you wanna do innit? Oh yeah. No no I wouldn't do that I always do it like this if I was playing that hand three flu well you could go well you got a choice you can go take a chance on your last hand, not getting through or you can go two, three, five, six, seven two three four, ace finish them which is what I'd probably do. Oh I didn't see that, oh One more try I didn't see that love three queens jack flush ace high, so I mean you wouldn't get any it anyway. I didn't see that last flush, I couldn't ba , I couldn't sort them out. Yeah but I mean it's it makes you one, two, three, you wouldn't of had a one two three to start with I know that but you had a eight to finish with which is finishing and a one, two, three might not be and a better run so I think I would have been tempted to finish with the ace flush there try and stop me rather than trying to win it cos you had nothing else did you? No you didn't have you didn't have a finishing hand, you didn't really have a brilliant first two hands and then the pick of the one, two, three bouncer I might I might have been persuaded to play the one, two, three bouncer and hope that that got through but to finish with an ace flush but good. Oh I don't know I ain't got nothing. Neither have I. Oh I'm not playing this, bugger it! You chose, I can't sort it out I ain't playing no more, it's damn boring! There a nice pair of fours ace high there er seven, pair of nines, ace high about all you got really that's all of it whatever you got . Load of rubbish innit? Eight, ten, pairs Nines and a pair of fours pair of nines , pair of fours ace That's it. high I'm only coming out with a ten flush, pair of aces, and a pair of eights would have been mine whichever way you played it. That's it. about or either of them want all your pennies my dear. Wasn't that a damn boring game! However or is that a damn crying shame however or is that a damn crying shame terrible you know what you need to do for now then, now I've won all Cry. Now I've won all your pennies off you Cry. You're not are you? Really? Yeah. Cry, cry You need a cigarette now do you? Pardon? No not with all these people here no getting me wrong, I'm not Ronny's not gonna go anyway nattering to his mates I've gotta get a I've gotta go and get a to go with it two and ten eights fours in that seven, four seven and four seven, four, six six, five, ten, ace jack queen, king, how about that? Can't lose tonight can they? How about that? I think I'll leave the rest of that tonight. Sorry? I'll leave this for tonight now. More stomach pains says where's the tablets so it's alright I can give it away can I? It is yeah. Pete wanna come here? No it's alright. So so when he'd done it he said well two hundred and fifty quid I heard him and he said but I suppose you know the of it oh I don't know and he said why didn't you do it? I said well I , he said still thought you were gonna do the bar with wood but since you put it like this if you had a te a tin of beans, would you know which one made you fart! Oh did you like dear, it's good that Yeah yo e e e he told me you were playing ladies, I said oh I bet you enjoyed them all, bet you go over that bloody table! That's what I told them. Yeah, that's what I said to him, I bet you had good fun. No now no in front of the girls you know, he poured Yeah he said you were all over the bar for you start playing now they'll Said I bet you quite enjoyed yourselves you lot. Ron's eyes were popping out weren't they Ron? got the tightest ones on ain't she? No they're to buy two sizes too small, that's why it don't look right. They played well though, didn't they Ron? Mo most of them played they played well Actually they do don't play as well as they used to. That's the car come and have a sit for five minutes. You tired? Yeah legs ache. Legs ache? Did they get it in? Yeah. Did? Oh no! I'll go down Here Bob Bob finish it there in five minutes. He wanted me have a go, but I'm not no I I'll have a go another time when it's quiet, not when there's be been showing me. Let's go You can go. You and Stuart will have to our hair slides. If you think he's joking. I feel like I've only played Yes. once and he was showing me how to do it, I could he hardly hit the That's alright. ball! Well Shirl had never played till she started Stuart can't play I've had one I've had a go. Well that's it. Best time to play is when No there's a lot in. No, I mean You just No it's when it's quiet When it's when it's quiet When we there's only you and Shirley here I'll have another go cos you won't laugh ! Well you might but it No won't matter. alright, do it when I'm here, I'll coach you. Yeah I bet you would! I would He would I would, I see you wrong I wo oh, I mean I with Chris if I tell her where to go I mean Think she need to hit the bloody ball at first! She said I'll go one then and she will go and er give us a shout, because Could I? Gotta a hit the ball! I'll just get a few I was Oh yeah. er Yeah. you know It was quite good fun really, I enjoyed it. I think I'll come and sit down there ou out the way you're alright, I'm alright on this corner. Erm Aah! Bugger me! I'll have to pa I'll have to pack this running up and down like this. What are you doing at the moment? So I've done it now, I was doing a load of painting. But er i outside with the Cuprinol. isn't it? Oh yeah that one, that's not so bad, it's the other stuff this er was is it,Saladene that that's a wo a wood preservative it's a got a s stainer now that's not very strong I can still smell it now you know. Yeah. And er but it was only about half past five I didn't I never stopped till the I just kept going now tha well about half past four, I started to pack up and I realized my sandwiches were still in my snack box so I I'd I'd had one one earlier on whilst I was still working but yes the lady there she made us a couple of cups in the morning, er cu cup of coffee, I think about what yeah about half ten time but the time I painted a little bit and I thought oh I'll stop and have a fag, with my coffee and I had a cup of tea later on in the afternoon but er I didn't stop, I kept going, you know and then course by time I got to my drink, it was cold it was cool, so you drink it straight down Drink it straight down. and then we carried straight on again but I wanted to get it done today, I didn't want to go back again weekend they want to get the carpets down inside and they've got all the carpets there in the house, I mean it's twenty eight foot long, twelve foot wide so erm we got the carpets in down and we've got it in the house and it's too big Yeah. so obviously they wanna get it down this weekend and get it out the way cos they've got some family coming for the day on Sunday so they want to get it down tomorrow. Yeah but it's all done Oh. now, it was just the windows wanted finishing off properly and I did that and all the the catches and fur furniture back on it again. Yeah. Cos I always take that off because it's all brass the er I know. you get a bit of paint on it I'd have a job to get it off so I take them off, then put them on just as it's going off, you know, so you gotta Yeah. Up market but erm yes even though I say it myself, it looks very very nice, and the door erm I did the the outside with the Cuprinol erm one of these hard wood doors with windows in it do you know it's bloody smashing! The door really does set it off, it looks Oh. yeah it looks a real treat it does and it's just taken that Cuprinol nicely but mind you I didn't put it up too thick I well it's had two coats so it does, it looks a treat so er I'm a I'm very pleased with it anyway and er the woman there, Rita Oh just as long as they're she says, ooh yes aye this is fantastic! She said after Christmas in the New Year I'm gonna have a house warming she says, and we'll let you know. oh that's nice You know then. they're they're going have extension built I mean I they're gonna use it at Christmas family coming over and they're gonna have their Christmas dinner out there. I see. Still well I mean I know the majority of it's wood and there's three large windows in it, and a door and erm the roof is this erm stuff it's just like er plastic moulding but it's double glazed bloody oven in there! Oy oy oy oy! Forty. . What one? What do you want? I'll have a Bacardi now please, one before I go home. the diet. Yes please. I'm trying to be very good but er I can only so much of that ! You don't oh you you don't like orange cos that makes you I'm allergic to it. allergic to it. You alright mate. I heard Oh eh it comes across my shoulders. Oh I get it all over, terrible. No it comes across my it don't come out on my arms or anything, it comes, it comes on my body if I have an orange Mm. er a proper orange I can't touch orange. I love them! I love Luckily I'm not over I love keen. I love a piece of orange, I I wouldn't eat a whole orange but I do like er little pieces of oranges now I might get away with that but if I was to have a whole orange I just get, if someone No if you sat there peeling an orange and some of the juice squirted on me, I'd I'd blister. Mm? Sore it gets Eighty five! I wouldn't dare eat them I'd be in a terrible state. Yeah I'm like that but we had a erm conifer type tree it was only so big but and then I and when we we was unloading off the van, this come off and I dug a hole and stuck it in the garden, in the front garden just by the pathways right that's that but I was washing the car one day, a nice hot day got my shirt off when I come in course I'd brushed past it I'd got patterns of the leaves on my on my back. Yeah. I mean, my mate, he went to hospital cos they said he was allergic to something and they was putting him in a thing that only Yeah a little box Yeah same as this. and lumbered it. I know a little boy who had that Yeah . and all the way down his back Yes. you know, and of course, one or two did Yeah. come out, you know, one or two were leaves and you could see the shape of the leaves well that was just like me on my on my back. Funny innit? Funny yeah. It's years since I've dared have an orange yeah if I eat an orange, I'd damn well Mm. get blisters over me wherever it touches try and eat one, I'd have them on my tongue and in my mouth and everywhere. Just daren't touch them. Well I'm the same, I'm alright with you know that orange juice? Yeah. Britvic orange juice I'm alright with that, mind you I'll only only have one, orange juice and lemonades I'm alright with that alright with an orange drink. Only look what I've er but I probably could, it depends if it's got real orange in cos when I went to work at Lockwoods at Lymestock Mm. we had some carbonated drinks factory I said well they they asked me if I'd go over there and I said I can't work in there I'm allergic to oranges and he said oh bloody or I've never seen an orange, don't worry, you know it's all chemicals ! Orange flavours that's about as much as what we'd ever get in here! There's no blooming so I mean I could drink something like that, which is purely chemical and never seen as li a damn orange That's all it is is flavourings and water and Mm. sugar and Yeah well that you see is just orange. But yeah, but the pure orange I wouldn't dare to touch Cos they're some of them canned orange drinks are Yeah. are not orange, they're all Yeah but I mean real oranges, but you peel them and I'd Yeah be bad that I'd come that's it. out in a rash And if someone just squirted, just but squirted on, that would be it you know those orange drinks, which it says real oranges in nine times out of ten, it isn't there's always some additives and what have you Yeah. because I used to have when I used to go around these for breakfast I'd always have an orange juice and my cereal and then my fried breakfast it's the only time I'd eat a fried breakfast. It's the only time Stuart does, if they're away. Yeah. He loves it, but he wouldn't have one at home. No. I've offered him, I mean it's not as if Oh right. it's not there, but he just won't Yeah I he says no I can't, it's a special and when you're on holiday it's different you can sit down and enjoy it Well, when you're on holiday and relax and Yes I mean when we we went on a and er if you're going to work or something you don't er well we went on a course, for a week up Newcastle and of course er erm we had to be there for nine o'clock so we had to catch the bus, at the latest half past eight so you're up at you're up at seven and you get showered and what have you cos there's a shower in the be bedroom get yourself all ready so you're down by about erm half seven, quarter to eight, like so you tend to think quarter of an hour to the erm bus stop which is right outside the door of the hotel we were getting so and we use the bus rather than take the car in daily, cos it's easier so I and er and of course I sat down and had a breakfast and I thoroughly enjo , I didn't have any cereals you know, I says well er and I had a little bit of orange orange juice, but it was this erm made up orange juice Yeah. you know had some of that and erm my fried breakfast and my toast and my cup of coffee and I thoroughly enjoyed that, set me up for the day that did. He does when they're on holidays Yeah stay and have brea and then at lunchtime er first day we went out for lunch somewhere but erm Didn't really want it. not really want it, a a couple of sandwiches or something, to be going on Yeah but erm, but actually near the erm near the bridge the the large roundabout before you go over the Gateshead bridge erm underneath that there's a subway and what have you there's shops in there, there's a little shop in there that th that used to do these rolls and beautiful rolls, any bread you wanted, any filling you wanted you know they have vast variety of different fillings you know, and it was all there in these erm show cases, and we used to go down there and get a sandwich, take it back to to the place where we was you know, this conference centre and erm it was great and then course when we got back we got back there was a a a meal there by the time we'd you know Brought it in. and what have you come down for a meal and we used to sit with the landlord having a having a natter whilst having a few few drinks and er yeah he he used to say er when we went up what do you fancy tonight? Anything you fa you fancy? No we'll leave it entirely up to you and i it wasn't English, I think he was Polish or or you know and erm some beautiful meals there was a stew that he did and it was beautiful and we we told him Oh yes. we enjoyed that, what was it? And he I can't remember what it was now but he told us and erm a couple of days later he says erm when we went out he said what do you fancy tonight? Don't mind bu wouldn't mind some of that sweet Sweet ha ha ha ha. couldn't get hold of that actually. Oh. He went all over the place looking, but he couldn't get hold of it I mean it was obviously it was something that he made himself but it was beautiful! He was local to the area, I think it was one of these bakers that used to used to do it but er he probably only used to do it once a week sell it once a week I think of all the people that was on course we got the best, we got the best place and er and it came out that the erm tourist information booklet. Mm. Yeah, somebody had told us about a place to go to , asking the bloody earth they were! Yes I Wh whe where we go in Yorkshire that Stu Stuart usually gets them out of the Cameron the the pub one, where we go and stay and or they're dealing with you know what he's like with his deal, he knows if it's there it's usually good fun so, you know . Yeah, yeah Well he wasn't, he used to be licensed Oh. but he let it lapse because So he says I you try buying I'd just as soon stay in a small pub Yeah well he used to find that a lo rather than wholesale outlet. a lot of the people used to come in and they'd be in in his hotel, boozing rather than being at the pub you know, he says it for me I got a bottle and everything there. Well like Black Bull at Boroughbridge you mean? I mean I know it's a beautiful old pub the meals are absolutely wonderful! Mm. But, well it was only a pub Mm. I mean t to for the cooking that they did for a pub it was and we had duckling and salmon, poached Mm. salmon and Mm. wonderful meals and she she was a real good Yeah well you see good cook if I mean the only th there was only about twelve or fourteen that she could cater for fo for a meal, you know, she had her dining room Yeah. Yeah like we do we Yeah. Yeah. An tha and that was about it but Yeah. I mean they were really lovely meals! Yeah well you know I mean we could look after you so well we could do it. We could do do things like that Mm. if there was a call for it round here. Yeah. That most people you know, they won't try something like that, I mean, I know I'm a bit like that myself I'd sooner have a steak. No you see I'd I I'd Yeah. prefer to try but yeah and if I'm going out for a meal I prefer to try something different, you can have a steak at home, I mean Yeah so, but I wouldn't go and get salmon I think the most, most people get scampi. or duck, yeah and say Most people have scampi. Yeah. You know they they won't bother with something else. Me I'd rather try something different. Yeah, I mean erm So wh why have so why go out for a meal and and eat something that you That you can have at home. you can have at home anyway and Well this is when I go, when we go out That's what I like about we always we always go to Spalding well not always but a lot of the time we go to Spalding and I always have what is called the raw vegetable dip it's all vegetables, you name it, the vegetables are on there you know carrots erm Raw? erm mushrooms cabbage and everything's raw, completely raw carrots in th in the middle with two different two mayonnaise dips one plai s plain mayonnaise and the other half of it is erm garlic flavour mayonnaise and erm that's as a starter I always have that and I thoroughly enjoy it you know that's the by the time I've had that I don't want much of my main meal cos it's great yeah plateful I I rather have a I mean starter or a but that is or cos Michelle always has their erm prawn cocktail, so there's like a prawn cocktail I always have the main meal and the sweet,Stu Stuart has a starter and the main meal . But Cos I I love the sweets see and then nor then I ca Yeah then I can't, if I eat the starter then the main meal I do I can't eat the rest. Yeah well I'm not ove I'm not over struck on some of their sweets that they do, you know erm I love the sweets . the they don't do the same sweets week in week out, I mean the they erm they vary them a on a possibly on a on an eight week basis so it all depends which week you go Week you go. as to which sweets is actually on that week and if it's one that you don't really fancy, well I'm not bothered, I'm not bothered about the sweets. No I on a weekly then you might have four or five dishes on it Yeah. and then the next week she'll have Mm. you know, another lot. Well if you I mean she does everything, you know, burgers you know, stuff that people want, I mean that's bar meals, but to sit in the dining Yeah. room you have Yeah, well basically proper meals. ours basically what you wa what you, what is set up there basic bar meals but i you can have it in the restaurant if you want. If you wish. If you wish you know but I mean during the week nine times So out of ten so she did I think it was four se special meals then when we were there there was salmon, duckling at the moment, only on a Sunday we get the odd meals on a Sunday, we get the odd meals on a Saturday night but nine times out of ten they only want to sit in there there's a Sit in there. they don't want to sit in the restaurant they very rarely do get them sitting in the restaurant I suppose to a certain extent other than the Sundays it's just waste of space. Yeah. And it's not earning us anything in there, but mind you erm it sometimes during the week where erm the tables are full of a load of papers and what have you where I've been doing paper work and that Yeah. sitting there doing paper work and the ki erm the kids use it as a a an office and what have you, there with their paper work, Sarah does her homework there and we have our meals in there so erm sort of it doesn't really matter but er you know it saves them all coming out for a meal, and having to do it cos trouble is it's too small to keep an eye on people to see if they want anything, everything's alright and what have you Yeah. but you want you don't want the door open, because people can go there to the toilet Yeah. they look in Yeah. you know and you don't want that when you're eating a meal. When you're eating, no So we shut the door that's right , I know and you're forever in and out, in and out, in and out of that, it's alright say if we've got somebody in there that was in the Yeah. kitchen and just keeping their right. and we can't do that and be in here as well. No. But er I I hope that I mean Shirley as she is she's not cooking but she will cook She don't want to be , I mean we both can cook, if it comes to that I mean I can cook Stuart's the one for a cook marvellous, Stuart is should have been a chef, he should smashing cook. Well my mum often used to say that about me. Smashing cook, he is. And my brother. I'm not that bad but Stuart can beat me if he gets in the cooking mood,. Yeah I like to, I like to have a go at different things I mean the the the other the other lunchtime we had you know he came in at lunchtime and er Shirley had gone somewhere Ann and er I'll have the chicken kiev for me please so so I went and did it did you cook that for him? I says of course, yes right he says, I really enjoyed he says you know, so I mean that made my day that did Daren't tell Shirl,sh otherwise she'll say you'll do all the cooking! Mhm mm. I don't mind but that getting a like when Shirl first came she was to get everything done exactly the same time Same time that's the So everything's ready same time Hot and so it's all hot on the plate and served straight away you know, luckily erm I managed it but I got in a little bit of a flap I will admit it whereas Shirl's now got used to that I mean I when we first came we both used to do our own help each other out I used to help out but erm It's getting used to Well yes yes and Sarah will nip down as well and then Sarah was then getting used to doing, she started getting used to doing it and that was it I used to come out and say well no I'll look after the bar from now on and that's it, and er Who won then? Who won Stuart? I I I'm just about to do that Oh getting a clever devil isn't he? I gotta let him win else he won't play with me. That's it. I was lucky though, Ronny did skittle though and er Mm. when he got and In case they change their minds again. No I didn't win, no I didn't win, I still didn't win. No I know. You're telling me you're playing la , he told me he plays in ladies teams, I bet you all had great fun, watching them women bending over table. Oh we did. Yes that's what that's what I said Yeah to him, in the very tight trousers he kept saying. Yeah well they was cracking! Well they all had high neck Said he ain't going no more. jumpers. He kept moving round the other side, cos they've all got high neck jumpers haven't they Ron? Said he ain't going no more, if I find out it's a ladies team that's it he'll be banned. No thank you. Sure? Yeah. then. Changing the subject quick. Oh. Where did you put that red, Ron? I put it round here. Yeah see what you can do, it's quite a good night actually. Yeah. Ah they they're a laugh, they're like this there's one of them to this Looks like yours. Er she's always and jigging about you know but when she plays very still and she hits the ball stands up quick, watches where it goes, she'll go like this, this up jump Ooh you know scatty as anything! As long as she's You know , yeah. she doesn't seem the type that would be a school teacher I mean the erm that erm seven, eight year old that she teaches and I just think what she's like at school. Mhm mm mm mhm. You know, I don't know she is she's she's a real nice that's wh well all all them are but you know there maybe. Yeah they're all nice nice girls you know this is like the other week we was here playing the other team and one of the other team was swearing you know, and particularly you know the girls in, might have not they have the they used to play for Black Bear and you know the that lady that's up there, she still swears and we stopped her from here used to f this, f that and f the other,we did, we stopped her said if you can't find a better word than that to use I shouldn't bother, you know As you know Shirl don't like that. No, she don't. And er Why should she? Why should Quite! you put up with it? Yes I just think I mean you get i I mean it's your home as well as your Yeah. pub innit? I mean if a load of fellas in together like Sunday lunchtime They'd have a fit. if it's all the fellas are in right and I'm in here, and Shirl's out there cooking doesn't worry me and I don't bother to it, because it's good fun isn't it? No that's it Right? Stuart don't like it in front of a woman. No, but as soon as a woman comes in I always say ah language lads ladies present. That's it. well we used to come in here before went and that hasn't been the same at night cos it got a bit so he'd say excuse me, love there's ladies present here can't have that. Yeah. Felt the same way and he said as you can see Ann's here we won't be having no more of that. Yeah it's it's They shut up. it's right though isn't it? I mean why should you have to put up with it? Mind you, like I said Stuart I was in the bar and and if I didn't like it I could of gone in the lounge so I mean they couldn't ha he wouldn't have it. More so in here you see. Yeah just cos you're in a a an open Mm. plan. Yeah. show up I really like and said they were sorry you know. Yeah, yeah. It'll be alright after that but I know they said he was a just a really. Yes. But I mean he ju he just stares at you. I mean it's like when Shirl comes through like when Shirl comes through you know, they know all know Shirl doesn't like bad what it means. No. You know I mean we had a woman in pub, , so I put her out in the end it erm it was surprising everybody knew what was going to happen they knew what I was going to do right when I come back in after swi place was empty they'd got out that door before I'd got her out the door but erm no it's it's very insulting. Yeah she should pay for it and all. She'd got thing in her in her er yeah what's what it is up she damaged it ooh some years ago and it's been a bit weak since like, you know but sh it was only a few weeks ago we got some computer big computer, with big discs and she twisted her hand in in pulling one out, you know it's I don't how, the fell or something and she went to cash it or whatever and of course we're riding the motorbike for the like you have to change gear it's only a small seater, your bike's open Yeah. to get up to the thirty five mile an hour you gotta go through all the five gears so you're forever pa going like that erm and that made it worse so that last fortnight she hasn't been on the bike and that last weekend when she went out she went because we was busy, she got her bike out and she went up to work one or two of her mates and then come home she said she'd wished she hadn't of gone up Oh dear. because she was in pain again in had it strapped up again said come and see me in a week see if it's any better but erm she's injured it but not er you know it's obviously she can't move it a lot that way which is what's effecting her, but mind you once she gets back on her bike again, as it's cold weather Yeah that won't help it'll be back again Mind you, I feel it I mean I know at the moment it's it's me I my elbows in the morning I can't hardly move them when I wake up in the morning because I get that far my arms have to be outside the bed and our bedroom's that cold Oh I know. and they kept I was in stiff I could hardly move them I mean if I touched them now I mean that one's not too bad I can't touch that one very much when you can see them, my scars and all there If I touch that, that'll be very gingerly ach aches like hell! And course we're doing a lot of counting today this wrist is a you know I don't mind that you see what did that wrist was that elbow I had to have a second operation on it,in the arm up here because er I had to have some bone taken away in the elbow course it stretched guiders but they also erm disturbed the wrist joint because it was in plaster like that stretched round and disturbed the wrist joint and I ke it's it weakened it and it's only just it's only just this what last nine months that it's that it's really started to effect this but I know what it is that's because I keep going out doing the odd jobs Yeah, it doesn't help. but I know that if it was really bad I'd just stop doing anything for while, for two or three And you you have a rest. days you see, like I was out Monday I was busy all day Monday and then I Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday here yet I was busy, but it was all brain work I see. it was all writing. I see. Right and then I I've been out today and I probably won't go out for another four days so I hope I'm alright you know that way it gives me chance to get it right again. Catching up Ron. If Yeah. I was having to go out daily I couldn't do it. Yeah. I couldn't go out daily. No I know that's what you're waiting for innit ! when you like gotta stop. Yeah It's funny we've just cos it paid for the flat. And it was picked up. Right, right funnily enough used First Friday night used it before Christmas. Yeah. Yeah,? I mean you liked it at night but I mean we've got people right but some Friday nights we've only got them in that bar. Oh I like Friday night Or maybe you could have sat in here few odds and that's right but then then that and he just bring me pack of cards you know er but er that's how it's been for a while you know if I thought well being a sh that that's now we've done it it's a pity we've not got, mind you I mean it can go potty again in a few years. It's always goes quiet Christmas and New Yes Year. Yes mind you people are getting used to the . Yeah well that's it. We've been here long enough now for people to know That's it by now. They haven't got one No but that's it, that that's we like about it one of that's what the things that's what we like, you know when we when you get and what have you in then the officers, I mean I know they're in their twenties when they get larking about and what have you I don't like it. No. I don't like it, I'd sooner it be like this you know I mean Yes. And especially We're not, we're not making a fortune Yeah I know but I mean it's sort of like small areas so, it will do fine won't they? What? What are you doing? Everybody's tired . I need some Is it is it? Some apples. What are you doing it for? I'm A project. What about, coffee shops? No I I'm recording people's conversations for a new dictionary they want What for ? words to combine a new dictionary and dialect some things. Supercalafradgealisticexpealidocius ! Is it painful? Painful sa too busy yakking! Oh. I wouldn't say that. Well ! You're not supposed to be aware of it, you're supposed to say normal, we sat in a pub last night and this man started telling me a dirty joke, so that's on it. Really? Ha ! What are you gonna wear it round all town in the shops and that? What and you can't have people ? Yeah about dad and daddy. How do you do it then? It's I was asked to do it. What someone ? What? You want . Don't think of that. Bye mum! See you. Bye bye bye bye mu mum! Ha? Hello, she's got a tape in. The lady Stuart isn't on. You worn at pubs? Just ordinary people I do it What about in the canteen but I ca can't take that into the factory Only do it for a week, you've spilt that, Helen! Sup it out the saucer. Dirty Ha ha. devil! Well yeah I know but if I do people But we right I warn you now, yeah. does people react? I've only Don't speak got three fives. the queen's English I've gotta Well they don't want the queen's English they want blooming in fact up er Just about. they want normal speech, they don't even people don't even know it's been going on. Oh. It is now, d'you want this? Do I walked round with it yesterday and nobody noticed well actually I had it on my cardi Hey oy. I had the microphone like that nobody even knows it's on there don't take any notice of it. By the way You got to back? Yeah but I shall I sh the sound's at the back they'll really know go somewhere Ricky speak or whatever You can hear it's just . Yeah it must sound really Probably In here? Eh,so recording. It's recording how many people They don't to be quite honest. Yeah. They might. What? They might wish we had a Oh. . Still can't you dare to make him an offer on it? In a Right we're finished. No they've all gone, mum. really good Right. to buy. We know there's a time share Yeah? That's why Even then we No a week late. What? So well actually I've been robbed you got your own villas. It's nice actually. Show them council houses Yeah. that will and right opposite there's some new houses, one of them. estate. Oh it's the pits! Stuart is, I'm not. What's that? It's gotta be a What's that? something do to with You've had that one of them. Well it's a bit quiet isn't it, with all Especially at Christmas. What's . With my leg, it's that it there's no Er What's It's not as though you got cars going the same can't doing any of that. What's your name? What's your dad's name? No I am a bit hard. Daddy. Daddy. had a number of people police were dealing with murder, then they knew straight away. Say ha. That's right eighteen Ricky eighteen people playing you say it. . Oh come on Is that the answer? you can't this woman ran naked Can I have in our factory and the blokes, like got hold of her and wrapped them all up in this cling film stuff, shrink wrap and they put her in she got wet and she was absolutely covered in shrink wrap but she didn't get out of the tank she started walking Do what? ten months Aah! Ah! Rick! There's Aah ! Hope it goes Alright only last a week it's only Be quite gentle with it. Aah ! What time did you leave that other one then ? Aah ! you know see What? first, do you wanna Yeah. I wanna a You got that pack then? I'm only glad I gotta date and that was it get on that just the same as the bloke that's gonna Yeah but that man innit? Enjoy it. Yeah but I'm gonna get it. That's what I mean. I'm going to You can That's what happens when I'm there. It's too late for that one? I reckon it's even with bill but er well I gotta go. got out with the er the Then I Dad. Even though we're Here are. they don't pay us anything. Yeah I know. Here are. I've heard of that. Then we've gotta so if they've probably still got ours. There's Here are. probably have the usual. probably Oh I think I'm alright with that. ? I like Yeah. Gotta a work I am going. innit? A nice Yeah I don't wanna Shut up! It's a week I'm doing something in that. Yeah. Some Let go! Aah ! Sit down! Okay. Dada in shock. just one last shop. Oh that take back all her Ooh!! In there. Oh we joke about it. There please please? No. There ah! Everybody can turn on the affair. !. No it's for your glasses. Where? Jean Claude Van Damme. My glasses Your glasses frame. Ricky! Mind out through the . That one? er well That one. You don't you sit in the basket. That, that. That. We've gotta get the things they can't do. Yes. No! Is it? Not allowed to play. Leave it! I can't! The fastest And he had to learn the Then he'd be Stop ! Ah oh. Yeah I could be going in the but you weren't told that. That what? What's that? Leave them alone! If he thinks he can and cause trouble, he would. As far as he's concerned I'm still living with wherever. No Ricky! Ahhh ! No! Yeah he won't we're be okay. It's pretty certain that you can stay . He might pop round. No I'm more nervous that yeah and that I used to I've got them, you can hear the proof. All it is is fear it's just moody. Innit, oh the fear, he'll do it. Yeah. Ah ba ! drinks, innit? Mum! There's that er Cos I told him we're through. Well you shou I don't mind Are you going to eat then? You know that A boy. Yeah! There's a Every four, four days. It is the latest of the power . Oh, so. Ahhh! Oh! Yeah Oh yeah. What's that? And that? Job I think I probably will What's that? go and have a look. What's that? Yeah we're going Dad won't be any problem. What's that? Ah yeah that. Except for Ha. I think you were right erm Whole load of us ! If they'd have known that when they got they got out, Yes. Look! What? Oy! Let's see them then. Bow tie and Well I don't know any. Yeah I bet she would. Can you go and get me the key? Why,? Yes. Hey I can't hear About Carole's about No be quiet oh come Daddy dada? Yeah he's going now. That. What? That a at. Ay? And that. What's the bag? And that. Here we are. that. But we think we might be going to another do in February, it's actually in two or three weeks. Mm. keep up with it. Good boy. Alright? Alright. the door on. I've had a good run all week, I've er Yeah that's right thought I'd missed you Look you walk ooh . Where you going now Ann? Oh I'm thinking we came out here all I want is some first again Oh God! Think she's off this week. Yeah but the thing is you're better off going to Gateway first. Well yeah but you there'd be, you don't know what you're gonna get then do you? No that's right. It seems everything I get in here, Gateways I've gotta get some fish paste cos I don't know what I've got and what I haven't that's it in in Cos I wanna defrost mine. Should of done it last night when it was empty then. It's not empty, it's got chocolate still. Ha ha ha ha ha. You can't use my cos you wouldn't get your stuff back ha. Yep. Ah ah ah ah. It needs to be full somebody said that you can wrap them up in these papers and they stay frozen. a lot if they're in there somewhere cold. I want one of these . If you're going those people are they wanting, we'll be away in a minute ah? Well I will . Right ooh. Why? It wouldn't hurt. Mum! ee yoh yoh Mum. yoh ee Shut up, mum ! la la la . Ha? from hell. Bad bad dog! Ah it's okay if I catch it Ahhh! Ah ! No come a bit earlier cos I want to set Ah! Ah ! Don't invite anyone. Mama John's taking your hair! I want ! Here it is you can go and do that. I want a bottle! I want a ! What? Ask Steven. It's not Ah? fair either. ! Oy! Gary! Bottle in that block? Ay? Aha I thought they weren't going to work for him Did he get the job at I think that Gary rang him up and said he was going to back to work, there's only people starting work he's giving some people some work. Long way to bloody go! I don't think there's no choice though. Cost them a fortune in Daddy look! in packed lunch. Dada. What's wrong with that? He's working fourteen hours a day anyway though. He'll be pleased to get back Daddy. home though. Ooh! for what? Yes you are put on tight. Go up them go up them Car, car car. Come here. Let's have some money ? Alright. Car car Mind the car you'll get run over. Ah! Don't let Ricky run away Jonathan. No I won't. I don't wanna knowing mine they won't Yes. do. Wanna watch them at the moment. Well I Unless I put the straps on. My favourite. Thirty nine Ow! crackers. Yes Nana Twenty first of January,Otherwise Nana. that would be paid. Want it nearer? No. Pay now and you don't worry. make sure it's alright for Christmas. Daddy, stop it! Better eat this. No. Tell you what, the only the thing hurts on me mate,I reckon I'm I'm doing this this time but but then it's my shoulder. It's winning. Tape recorder's on. Oh I've just gotta go and see them at sa when they get it. What about ? Yeah that's what I've come in for twenty for. Gets harder the first don't it? Well i you have a look and see how much a Gloria Estefan tape is. Oh can't he do it. Stuart In here. Right. What? Stay this side oh you know him Ah ah I told you lots Ah. of people can Can have fish and in the Co-Op. . Yeah I don't like to Well you I I didn't! I know see what the programme is. Bah ah ah ah ba ba ba ba bub. Want some ? No I'll try that No you can share with me. Alright. come on It's a real effort! I think I'll go No. I'll go right to the car. nanny? Daddy. Well that double trick's the perfect thing. That's not bad for a job I know, but seven ninety nine. No it's not too bad really is it? Can't really afford it. Not as big as that old bloody Gloria Estefan at the moment, so I thought I'd just get him the got a couple of records LP's or whatever you call them now. Ah! Didn't say he wasn't Ahh! Yes he'd rather play the cassette as the no not his Ahhhh ! Oh ah I have that as well. That's not ! Wanna have a look in here She'll be coming in, look, follow her That what? What? That one no. Wait there. What?so I can have a bit. Not certain. Think this is it? Looks like . Is it? The wo the one I've got here. Which one? Oh! You can Look. that one. gate way for them Gate way for them. Oh I like that Right. , dunno why. That one dear with the Behind this one? no this one, That's got a there. Ooh ooh. That one? Yeah. He likes that one. Ooh ooh ooh. Yeah. David's got one. Who? Wha what a That on? freezer? That that's what I said he's got one How much do you want it? What his big one? I thought he'd sold it, he said he'd sold it! No he's owed one. I'm surprised if he has. Oh, oh, oh, oh,ah! Ah! I think he told me he had. We well where to? Erm Wah, wah wah! He's only got a little tiny table top one. Yeah and he had that for sixty quid for ages Yes it's freezer It's the top , well that's been I don't know any That's here it is this is it Oh Helen That's all in one that Dad? It's quite good that. It's alright Dad Dad. It's all in one apparently. Helen What? you sho that's your freezer. Ah! ah!! Alright? Let me it! Ahhh ! What? Didn't you hear that. I wanna find out who them. Yeah Stop it! isn't that Granddad's little hoover still, do you now? Are we waiting? Sorry! Hey!! Oh there you are, okay? Yeah right then left. Not yet you know, absolutely. We're after the cooker I wonder if they got that out, you'll have to have a new cooker. Oh. This is nice. I like the brown one, in it I like the brown. It's no good having them, but I've got a blue kitchen in my house, I wo I won't pay seven hundred quid anyway, that's not bad for the money even if they were only six seventy quid I wouldn't pay all that. I like the ones with the wipe over top like that do you? Ay? Hang on isn't it? Ain't got my grill on them though Oh I pulled it down we got a top on that like that one has got a sort of like bit here Oh that's funny, isn't it. Oh oh oh Daddy ! Got a top to the oh they can have wo Ricky! Come here! so you can build it into the unit. Mm. Isn't it? Mhm that's not what I want. That's a nice one. Oh yeah that is nice isn't it? Hey!! Ha ha ha ha. I bet you don't even like them. What's up? No. How d'you do this? Oh look! Look they do that. Yeah well they're safety things for kids don't like that Like this one though. Ah, that's nice. That's ours are that one ours has never even been. ! We deliver it free, we deliver it free and they gotta have an electrician do the job so Mum wa mum! Yeah come on then. That's not your mum, that's my mum. Nan nan. Ha ha. I'm your other nanny. That's nanny. What am I? Your nanny. No I bought that to go with it. Here are You take them. Yeah. Urgh! Okay then. Yeah. Oh I wanted some didn't I? Oh yeah. But I haven't got a for it though. Can't have these. Get that Well they pick all those Go in and get my money back. paid ones not any oh no Yeah might have to Unless you go in can't see it, oh. There's nobody No it'll be alright. in there. Awful isn't it? No, go on. Nobody in there look. It's your shout isn't it? You get the drink Unless Stuart's Stuart's in there. in there Where's Stuart? Shan't be long, I'll be back in a minute. Over there. What do you want dear? Drink and er Oh there's no end I've had nothing but flipping drink! That. And I've I've had it! Look at that. Ay? Oh. That I'll go and while you get them. How can That you do it if it is off the trolley? Mum I don't know, I'll just take the chance, they won't like that. Hello ay. Hello. Well I don't recognise him. Don't you? No, I mean I know him, very well, I work with hi I work with his mother and his his mum and him are in my teams. Mum Mind you I think he does well I don't know him boy lives near me. I don't know then, I can't think where I know him from,. Anyone round here can be a friend of Jean's, not that far from where we live Probably would, yeah. Yes. Ha ha. Believe But me no ta well if I do see him I don't think that probably he'd take very well. The hard life, no She's though. Where we going then? seem to be about thirty quid a week Hello No Dolls, no Row doughs. Row doughs. That's it. Row do ! Have to walk Where d'you live? In a house In house Where no, Oh ? Where? Eighteen Come here! Aha. Where's your father? At the bank again he's not. Where's uncle Malcolm? Run away. Helen that's on the tape. Dunce! Ow! Do they Mick? They're first. What's he doing then Mick? She's first. He's dead. It's a butterfly Mick! Butterfly. What? Be upset! What? He's got a arrows on his packet. Oh. Have I? Got what? Got what? Not bothered. Anyway it says in the letter that he's got over her now. Well that hasn't take him long, did it? After all of a Probably not much chance though, yeah but fortnight and he's he didn't have much chance either. Well Hello , hello. You what? Mummy's gonna take him in, Neil tried to commit suicide, She's not a bitch a bitch, I mean he left What's she doing when he's coming out? Ain't got no home to go to. I dunno. Bet you'll be lumbered. I dunno. Ain't got no mother and father now they're together. Wait! Dad ! Cor you're gonna have to Mum ! Oh they'll Dad ! What? There! Oh. Just there ! Come here. I know. Come here ! Come here Ricky come here. Oh God, I don't know why ! I'm going in there for one, No, I can get the kids in as well. Mm. Ah look! They're nice the scarfs hand gloves Mm. but they look a bit . big for her, don't they? Blooming fiver an all. should be on there Just a Let we go! Look, and pick one with What? all of them oh my God! I'm just having a walk round this way. you tired? Anna Marie is. Sit down. Me isn't it Daddy? Me and er Come here come here Want nanny Want nanny. Pull coat down Nee ah, that's better hate this bit . I've got you, nanny! Hold hands. Oh I pulled the ! Oh don't be silly, that ain't gonna keep her warm! Come here, hold my hand Ricky hold my hand That's it. That's fair, look. Yeah isn't that. Look at that carry on watching. Only one pair. Only one That's Cos they've not gone over to play,ni night. Gloves I mean gloves are Here's the gloves. It's a good job They do gloves in that. gloves. Oh mummy! You can't afford them, love, come on let's go to Poundstretchers or next best thing. Don't want any bed wetting. Come on then. Daddy to mu =ic ! What? Mu =ic =sic. Music. Aha yeah. What about music? Sing in it Ricky. Mu =ic. Sing for nanny then. Sing in there. Sing in there. Say hello you go on say hello. Hello. That's it. Music. Music. Music. Yeah music. Is that? Shout out. They've shut it down, ain't they? Shout, nanny yeah they have. Nanny ! Come on nanny. Shout nanny. Nanny! What? nanny? Look where we gonna find We wanna go this way. Richard! Give it to her, she's dropped a Ha, I have a and then Give it back. I throw it back! Alright. Right, let go, come on. Oh couldn't we keep it? No you never stop do you? Here are. What? I want one of them? Honestly? I want of them. What? Might listen to music. One of those no we ain't got no earphones on, if you got one there, it's got little things you can ha , like you've got. Oh well. Got the headphones so market couldn't I on the baby stall? I ain't wandering round here forever. I know at least mum. I know but I'm still not wandering around for hours I'm warning you now! Even if they could sell some today, won't keep them on anyway, chuck them away. Gonna wait till I get working and unless you can get the ones with string on on a thre thread through the th sleeve Got a pound coin? I need my on. Yes. I like Yeah I like Can't afford one otherwise I'd get you one for Christmas, but I can't afford it. one. I got about fifteen Hey! quid to last me the week, after that Ee Yuk! Urgh! Urgh Yuk! We're all I've got one crinkly bit. Come on come on. Didn't want that anyway. Daddy, One bit. Nanny Wanted that. Who's that for? Mummy hurry! I just Come on mummy! keep up. You just what? My sleeves have cos I thought well what's that? Yeah nothing to do with me isn't it and not nanny They would normally go up four feet there, ain't they? Mm, is it? So Look they're two ninety nine, look Yeah. they can't sell them oh hat. No ooh your baseball shirt like yours Ann. That wouldn't be worth two ninety nine then. I don't know!. Where d'you get baseball shirt Look from then? I think this stall. Excuse me! Is that two ninety nine for the gloves Set and hat? Yeah. I'll let you have the I'm sorry. They're alright them. Get those They're alright for . Oh yeah I know Get one for Ricky shall we? I prefer that one though, cos it's got Get one for you? a lovely Yeah. Puppy dolly They're inside Helen. They're not. Oh aren't they? He always likes a nice cuddle. Give her a black and white one. Nanny, no! No I don't like it. It looks alright. Where my mum? That'll be a bit big won't it? I dunno. Fifty. ! It's too small be too big for her now. Yeah. That is as well, hanging over his eyes. You got any smaller ones in that? In the black, white and red one. No I Floppy head you got a . Not like granddad. Here it is He must have a haircut, it's too long wouldn't wear a hat anyway, I'd chuck it away. Can you pay the boot girl with What? the note pay her, pay Didn't we? We've been working. Yeah . I'm sure know what I mean. Well we've had enough we're going home. Going home now. See you later anyway. Yeah ta ta mate. I'll get it. Oh he seemed No. Yes definitely Ow! looks as if she pregnant. Ain't got no She looks fairly big Yeah. She does. Yeah. Yeah Probably Pick it up! No, there's no good getting at my We'll look for you. You'll break it! Oh! Don't ! We'll have Oh! back up I weren't only Oh! I gotta get thi How far is it now? Thingamijig. Oh. Yeah. Yeah. That's the rate Don't do cos That. you'd never see them. Gotta look in there look What do you want next week Ricky Oy! I say I'll Ah my kne ahh! God Ricky! You want some, get some then! No I can't! Ooh sod it! I'll walk round Somebody's fingers in a grave there. Ooh that boy, I'm gonna bloody kill him! Mummy. Well I know the feeling. Yeah I do I do, yeah. There. Where? Ay. Look down. Are you haven't that? Yeah. Er Wouldn't be a Where? Ay? The man. Stretcher Oh he's fun isn't he? Got my ready feed? Look. Fish. They make me feel Ee. Ee. Oy! That was the ! Look at her! What you got on? Looks nice there that's nice and Come here. warm. Which hands which? Ah oh! I'll go and get them on him. That's nice isn't it? Come here ah push your hand in come here you leave it! Not ! There thumby in that one. Come here. Handy, no this one. Come here come here. Is that me? Mind your thumb oh which one's which? Come here. in Helen I can't get one in. Tell you what This one That's the one I put on, oy! Oy! Ah Oy! ah ah,he can't put them on him properly ! You do it then cos I can't. Come here. Right push hands, push push your hands push forward. Oh look! That's it push. There weren't long enough string Push your hand, stretch your fingers out. He put them on him. I can't do, you do it, you're his mum! Ricky! Stretch your fingers, he's just got his fingers Ricky Lee! You won't get them on, cos he's got his on Ricky don't eat that! Put your fingers like this Hands like this. love Ricky. Do that. Do that. Oh my God! Come here are you walking that way. Oh baby it's Too much work, I was just Nothing to do Don't hurt him. the corner. I wondered if they might have stuck in the Push. Helen, do you think it's No it isn't there in here look! Where? You put it in. They're big They Daddy He'll never manage with them. Wouldn't bother. Come here come here! Roll them back. Oh you've taken it off! Here look darling fingy go in thumby go in Put your thumb in! that one in that one. Look wait. Ah! Oh Helen this'll never work! You'll never be able to put his hand in here! Leave it mother! I can't do it. I'm not messing about like that all day. I'll just take them back to the stall then. Look people wanna get past Helen! Excuse me Here are. Here's the bag. Take them back to the stall and get him pair of woolly ones come on. Don't you ! Look come here, out the way! Ricky! No ! Good boy come here. Come on. There are. Gotta . See you Ann Tara Bye bye See you next Saturday. I hope so. These ones yep. ) Gotta What? Where is he? Those are ninety nine p, this time. Got up all night and walked round and round and round on his blooming bad leg! Ay? then I go home and change. Don't you mean . Only a quiz. Are you putting a suit on? Good cos you won't get in a Where are them then? No but he said I did quite well Yeah well you wanna Well he said I realise I with a Your girlfriend's got no What? It's not going off the rails with the boys at the No, you're not last year. Yes, yeah. You're sighing. No I haven't got a he I fancy , no ! Not not like that well you now just Friends. just, no no no no ! A bit more than friends. Yeah but got feelings. Good looking if she what I think ! Just friends for the moment. A platonic relationship. At the moment. At the moment out with me ! Jammy devil! You're a randy little bugger aren't you? She'll go with and go then you got Careful how you're driving. I'm not driving. Well if you're driving then. Alright. Won't get drunk or owt will you? Course not he's never drunk in his life never been drunk at all not even Come on. Got something wrong with his blood so he's not allowed to Ricky! Come here. Mind the road! Come here Good boy, come here come here. now don't take them off. Come on. I don't ! What's up? Okay then what about them ones? One for only ninety nine P, so I had to make the money up they got I want a pair of them. unless you get them a . ? Yeah. Come here Ricky. to pay for it all. You're going to give me another one They've sold out they're gonna get them. You get five for ninety nine P who wants to get You paying? Yep I bought the card. Go on that. Don't know I don't like it on the number one! That's two 0 three . That's ! I don't think er !! Look what you , animal animal! Okay ! Look we can if you're not quiet! You what? No. Mama ! Oy! Pretty good are you? What like a Christmas ? I thought I'd make this week, I had four last week. Oh. Those things up there. I had to get one bag I didn't like to ask her for two. They're in here? Ah my toe! Where are they Helen? I've got those things in, that's why. They think they'd have your bags. Here's your nappy Got all the toys in, that's why Oh no! Sa the throw them out. You'll have to throw these out. Throw them out Where shall I Outside , out the way. Are we Yeah. Wrap it up again! An an Outside now alright. Another one. Thank you. Thanks a lot. Thank you. Definitely a bit better than . Where's he gone? Here. Here ! Jonathan! Look! I gotta go to Gateway. I know but we gotta swap that, that's it. We've gotta brought Oh. that puzzle. Yeah. I want that it's on the tape, turn it off. He's dropped that bloody bag on my foot with all them tins in it! Ha. Look at my foot look! It had nine tins of cream in it. We were gonna buy a flat up there. Oh. We were but they're tiny! I know they're like the Come here. No, no no. No they were only twenty six thousand. God they were dear! Well quite, and then I said Hey nanny ! no twenty six, I'm glad Hey nana ! I went and had a look, that one went. was it? That one look. Yeah. to this. Yeah it's big enough for one but it isn't it big enough for two, that's the one we went to see. Paul live in one of them well, did. That's the one we went to see. Look lovely. Yeah but pay it all, but It's only got a bed in the bedroom you No erm wouldn't be able to bloody move! They'd only paid fifty five quid. Open the door and ju open the door, and jump Helen. on the bed. What? You only paid fifty five quid, but I can't afford . Didn't see me, did you? Just open the door and jump on the bed, if you want to put a bed in. No I should think it would be No you open the door and No I know no it's it's alright for one It's big for one though. but not for two I mean me and Stuart not exactly little are we,. We had a look. work . I know well it's not your don't wanna open the door and can't open the door properly cos the bed's there,one step and you're on the bed. Leave it Ricky! No! Ricky, I'll belt you one! today. Eh? That's what I said. Look what they're doing on the bed? . No. Oh I If I Get ! Go on! much time if I, If I'd been on my own. Like that Stuart is he up there. Ah! Live and learn. Ha! No No it's gone. it's gone. Not as if you can wash them. Yes. Ricky! See that ! What? That bit . Nanny ! What darling? These. The what? Upstairs. I think he means. he's gone now gone to see if his horses have won. It's a nine to four one ! Nine to four, that's what he wants. On the head. Half a dozen nine to four winners in the alphabet . Four hundred hundred to one. That'd get good house, without a mortgage, ha. Straight back in now? Yeah I've been told. You got gotta have Really? Two pounds sixty to tell them how to do that six horses and if you win good prizes, you get a thousand or two with if you win. Rather than going to church. You don't have any faith. Who? Dad dad. No I gotta look in here, where are you going? I've just got my Oh no, I'm not having in there, with the pushchair and the I'll be in Gateways then. I won't be a minute. Quickly. Hello. Can I just slide past you madam please? Sorry ha ha ha. That's quite alright, I don't mind. Just looking . Wha what can we do for you? I'm just looking thank you. You're alright? Yep. Mummy ! Helen! I'll just stop here to get the erm I'll stop here with her. Oh yeah and I'll run back then. Only I want Only just get me a tin of hair lacquer, normal hold for tinted that's all I want. Normal hold, tinted. Or ooh no not or a super hold nothing like that. Alright. I'll give you the money, but that's all I want silly me going Put it away! round, isn't it? Hey? Ah ba Been a good girl who's a good girl then? Hey? Who's a good girl? What? Good girl? Yeah? Been a good girl? He's Want to eat? Only joking! Er two please can I have another one, please? Bored? No I'm just resting. No thi this size, I got one bigger than the other one, How much is this? Eighty five. Oh so don't have any. I guess that's twelve quid then about, I forgot now. That's a good idea. Where's my ? Standing at the checkout . Well How many's in here? Twenty. Oh yeah, oh give us some. What? Fourteen quid left out . Do you want some? I bought him some of those cheekies Hey you know I'm said I knew I forgotten something out of Gateways,don't you ? Filter coffee. No Where is she? Where is she? Boo! Aah ! Shut up! I've got two bags of cakes in here. Don't expect me to carry them! Eeurgh! You'll never push a pushchair with that lot on, Helen. This one's got all weekend to sleep in it and her Give me one of those bags, I suppose I've got to carry them! Go and get them. Yeah I know she did Well I suppose we better really Go ahead, right open your legs. I'll be just over there. Yeah right good exercises. what? Mummy. Come here hold my hand Aha properly ! Scruffy little bugger! He's pulling his trousers down ! Ha. Ha He's He's got his hands down in his pockets in the . Oh ho. Hands in pockets he's copying Where's he gone? him you just can't see him,Jonathan . Aha. Kept on pulling his trousers down and putting his out in his pockets. they're all hanging round his ankles. Aha ha, typical. I know baggy aren't they? Bell bottoms. It's only cos he's doing it. Fashion freak. No Steven's that's Jonathan . Yeah Jonathan does that, ah aha. Oy! What? Bib bib bib ! Bib bib bib bib! I was being a car. That was a car, yeah. Was a bus was it? Was it a bus or a car? Hello David. And you? Alright Bib bib bib yes it was quite good When you meeting your mate then? Three o'clock. Ooh have I got a ? Got time to help her with this shopping and bloody come and get your mail! Pick up one of them bags for her I weren't watching anyway out Come here Ricky. Come here. I can't hold that Just hold the trolley with the bags in there. Ha. Come here. Er we'll go Just Ricky! Doesn't make round here, you can have the with It's our house Cos I we had a look at that one, that flat What does it say,? It says go across the back Ma mum! Hey quiet in this shop. No they're not in there I thought they it would be dark. What did you put it on there for?let's sit down sit down!sit down!. Oh there's Try London. Lived in London, she's going out with someone, living with someone and she's five months pregnant! Think I couldn't remember the way back. Oh my God! she'll be happy! That's all she ever wanted She's staying over there. was baby weren't it? She's staying over there now she's pregnant. Weren't it? Bloody hell! All she ever wanted was a Erm baby. yeah five nearly six months. She's not il a bloody what do you call it ? At No. Oh. She left before she was pregnant. Oh. Got pregnant over there. Bloody hell! What? Hoo hoo. Who? Steven. Our Steven? Yeah. Why what's he done? Alright th the car blew up on a dual carriageway there's That's right. a big bang I'm driving there's this great big bang and the bonnet lit up he went. the bonnet lit up Oh God! right thought great! It's staying on the dual carriageway, well I went round Steven's to see if he thought to tow it round mine cos the already been on my back once oh no he said I've only just walked in from work I'm having my tea then I'm going to bed he said, there's no way I'm towing no motor for the he said, just f off! Well well we'd have What did you say? done it for him! So you should have said to him Going mad because wait till you need some help. Bernie's been out at ten o'clock at night before with him. Aha. That really got on my nerves that did. he comes round, and just say no, I'm not doing nothing for you. Oh. What about when you borrowed our battery when yours wouldn't go? That's what I mean. Just say no and if he again say no. when I come out . When I , but he won't I put them all out, in fact . . Ah oh. Go on. No I won't cos the police were at the car no . Sounds like it were a robbery. come out again police come out of the ca er er they were at the car there oh I said that's my car, he said oh yeah, I said yeah, he said, what's your name? felt like it. checked with his radio, he goes alright then phoned back to the police station on his radio, he said it's not stolen the owner's now here he said, can you please get it moved? I said well I'm trying to I said this bloke what happens to be my oldest brother I said, and he won't even tow it for me! So he said, oh why not? Steven thinks that just be I only just got in he said, I'm having my tea and he said there's no way I'm gonna do nothing like that at this time of night when I've been fourteen hours at work So then he stormed off back home again so he said well you'll have to move it cos it's obstructing the dual carriageway someone might come round that corner fast and hit it. He said it's not an offence he said if you've broke down, you can't help, he said but you've gotta really move it so I went round to Paul and there was about seven or eight blokes that pushed it all the way round to Bernie's. No you don't forget Helen he could come down I don't forget things like that. and ask for any help in doing his car don't go to work or can he borrow this, just say no I'm sorry you couldn't help us and I'm your sister so now I can't I know help you. He has been like that for since he's been with her he has I know about it. He used to help us with anything before he got with her he'd always help me he always looked happy, now he Mum mum mum ! But now he's with her, he don't wanna now. Well, you can just do the same with him. I You're not that bothered are you? Well no but I like to think that Steven's still my brother. Yeah well I my son but he don't treat a mother. But he's not he's not that when he's with her. He wouldn't of come th wa on his Saturday before his birthday he wouldn't of come and seen me unless he thought he was getting something out of it. I asked him to I told him to. Yeah exactly! Didn't come cos he wanted to did he? He No couldn't wait to get away as soon as he got his bloody present, he was I was gone! I know. Ricky. You should of kept his present. Don't worry he's not getting nothing for Christmas but a card and that's it Can't even come and say hello, so bugger him! Doesn't bother me You, Stu and I have been broken hearted a few months ago and I've cried over him not coming to see me but not any more. I've not cried! Well I have. Yeah and it turn them different. How do you think you'd feel like she didn't want to know you when she grew up. Because her daddy drink drinks in there in the pub. He always in the pub. Does daddy go in there drink drinks does he? No. Does Ricky go in there? No he's never been there. You've been in there have you? When you come across here that bag mum. I'll just leave it there he'll be at home with his mother now watching them on the telly. Where's your ? There Ricky. Who's in there? Look! Ha ha ha Is it big? Big. Stuey Stuey going in there. Can't move inside there! Gone home now. Gone home now. Gone home to see his mummy. Gone to see his mummy Like mum I've had a That that Oh go on, you heavy boy! Careful. Oh boy Oh boy ! When we get right to the again. Oh yeah Got a tre got and tree and all the decorations are there. I'm not putting them up though! He ain't putting them up is he take them down to Helen's then some lovely decorations we'll ask him for them Helen. No. Why? There's a lovely tree and a lovely decorations there Could do with tree they're not gonna use it, you might as well have them. Charge. For the kids. Charge. No. Why? Mightn't you? Did you get in before Christmas? Oh I don't think so, the way he's going! So the council informed Seth if I don't move in a month I'll have to put an application in and put another one in. Bloody hell! Are yo you signed the papers? Yeah well, no yeah. No? Got got that form didn't we? Yeah and it said go in next Yeah I week to sign them. Yeah but George Hold onto there. I can't go Where are you? before so I lent them, so he's gone in I go by the same time as him we both gotta sign them And you both sign. together and he's not going in there. Oh well post through there, yeah? If they do Ah I don't think I'm gonna be a bit bloody pleased! Jonathan, do you know back slash? You know what Jodie and David's ? Come in here please. Look all we do. Ooh Lie down dog ! Who's there mum I know it's a dog. Out! Out! Beattie Come over here and take your coat off come on then take your coat off. er No! Dog. Dog yes. in there Should of been Okay! they've lost as far as money's concerned. What. That's not yours for a Stinks of dog in here, dunnit? Ya Big sticks hooray! all over the place. He's been outside, hasn't he, so there's bound to be. Still stinks Dad in here, well they must have bloody hamsters then. whistles Something bloody stinks, dunnit? Can you smell it? Hey! Do you want a fag? Did you have enough money for that prescription? Oh you don't have to pay do you? No there was a full time education I put that Supposed to pay for them. You're not are you, on YTS, you don't. Yeah cos I ain't got a form I haven't filled out a form, well I have, but I ain't got it back. Just put that on. I put full time education on it ed that's a aren't I so I'm Mm. full time education. Who's that? Dog. Have to go every week on the train Who's that? to Cat. Sod it! What's it for, painkillers? Transve something. You should of bloody gone and got it, it'll be shut this afternoon, some of th chemists. Boots are open, you're alright. Boots are, I know. I ain't got a pen that's why I didn't fill it in. Daddy. Just have to . there's ! What? Hurt? Hurts, yeah getting told where my knee hurts. Ha? Hurt Okay. Hurt. Does it hurt, does it? Your a right mother Ooh yeah it does hurt. Oh shut up! Got an up on top the thing look. Somebody want a cup of tea? Oh well I will in a minute. This it? What? That one . Ca you take your coat off? Yes. Take your coat off. A mac mac Music, yeah, don't touch! Don't touch the music. Ann's wants to be a stress attack at the minute Ooh . A Ann Ann love. Hat. Yes. Looks like Lee, don't he? I haven't got any headphones so I can't have a Dad! listen to yourself. what got You can't Oh I got them but I mean I ain't brought them with me. Course you could use a normal It's got a radio and everything on it. What a play it back, with it? Really expensive they are. Hey? I'm only borrowing it. You wanna play it back? I ain't got no headphones with me. Put it on there. The recording ones are very expensive. They're not. At least it's sixty, seventy quid. It's only lent to me for a week bu she's back next Friday for it. Probably to record it, what did you expect? It's got a radio and tape on it. Now Ricky ! Aha. Tell him he's gotta er his prescription. Come here! Thank you. mum? What? Where's that gone? Why ask me? Well why ask me now ? ooh ah ah God! How can you go to a nightclub tonight like that? I will, ha. What? step last night. Yeah look what you done to yourself. Ricky! Put it down ! Just blow my nose No. Probably. Oh yeah? No I read that one, ha ha read the Sun. What's dad get now, Sun or the Star, or does Erm. normally get two? That having a word with the dog I'm gonna Does he like the dog? Yeah I Or is he fed up of it? Amount of crap Just where 's he craps on the floor, you have a massive pong when that happens. Don't do it in one, it does it all over the floor Don't you like that? little dollops all over, and there's one spot, little Well why doesn't he put bloody newspaper there? No it does all over the place, wherever put newspaper down, he does it on the carpet so kept doing it by the cooker so we put newspaper down there, and put the toys away, see they was in the way you see, put newspaper down there and then next wouldn't have that,. Ooh God! leave that! Who Rick? Who Rick? Or me Da da da da da Ha! Oh dear. Oh da da Ricky leave her! No it should be alright tonight, nothing out of the ordinary. Hoo hoo. Shall be quite glad. Ah. Look at this, look my tea's made. Your tea? All to myself. It's what we stop Urgh! What we did last night, stop for a chicken on the way over there. Where did you get the ? Wahhhh ! Well last weekend I bought a No go like that bought it for the dog and about fifty quid of it altogether Yeah. on the way home cos I bought a tenner for that for forty quid. And all the money went in the bank. You, you ! So I got in my leg. Don't know where to go though don't know where the best places are don't know where they are. Hey, he's out! Going about five t , half four, five o'clock time going to Cambridge first. Want a cup of tea? Yeah Yeah Yes please you gotta meet him somewhere first, provided That's late. he's going. Mm. What's his name? Brian. Look, look. We got a bloke called Rubbles Why have travellers always got funny names? They have Why because if we told them that Why? There's Balloo Peggy Yeah they're only nicknames. no real names Balloo, Peggy Fibi, Violet Walter they're all our, real old fashioned names there's er Fibi, Peggy, Balloo Violet erm Walter A Sophie well that's not really a weird name but she's there as well Bernie knows them all A ma they all know Bernie. Ah yeah bu a And they got all they've all got brothers called Ricky Lee,Jo Joe boy, John boy an Billy Mm. Je boy and stuff like that they all call them boy at the end of the name John boy an That's why he's only got a boy Joe boy it's what they call Roseanne girls aren't they? Ricky Lee an all that lot as if Bernie don't know Ricky Lee is a bloody name and erm Lisa Marie is as well. That's what Steve don't call his if he has a girl. I know beca that's only cos we were going to call her Lisa Marie weren't we? Oh I don't know . We were gonna call her Lisa Marie but then I said Bernie said that because mum done so much for me during mum ar when I was pregnant with Ricky an all the rest of it and called her Anna Marie, after mum Ma cos we called it changed it from Lisa to Anna for mum. Ooh look look. He da da With Lee dee dee dee girl I'm I'm going out with tonight see her name's Panja and it's spelt P a n j a Panja. No Tanja Tanja, I can't pronounce the second name. Do you want a couple of these? She foreign then? Her Dad is Italian. I'm not hat, I'm not. ha ha, oh dear Noddy. I'll tell you something as well. What? You're paying for this boy. Got lovely handwriting, look. Hey. Say her sister's called Sophia er girl is Janice cos this is There's Tania, Sophia and what's her name can't remember, it's an Italian name the other one. What am I? Very weird name, she's got her other sister. Don't say anything ah dear, come here Ricky come here. Come here. Kettle's off. Oh dear Oh dear come on don't cry, you be a tough little boy you'd be tough little boy didn't you? Oh no what's happened to the kettle? do Try plugging it in, Helen. I have. Try switching it on, Helen. I have ! Try putting some water in it ! Oh shut your gob! Hey! No there's Panja and Sophia an and I don't know what the other one's name is very weird. Me me mo sit on . It's a seat. Well funny girls ' names. Who? Said oy oy oh. What? Foll That's not her name! What was the name then? Amanda. Who was it, Folly called then? Amanda . Oh. She don't like Amanda though. Hey Name a horse Folly ! Dog !woof woof oy oy oy ! Cut two white holes in it, then send them in the bank, it'll be chocolate! Oy, oy ! Down. Er, you got a pen then, so I can fill out this prescription. Here are here are. Somewhere, but I don't know where. Up here. You want some new words on that thing then do you? What? I'll talk in back slang, if you want. Go on then. What? Shut your face He don't like wanna get on my shoulder. What shall I say? Oh oh oh Talk in traveller's traveller's working? Yeah. Talk in traveller's talk at me Could be back slang. What does that mean? Well you say I don't know if you watch Neighbours, do you? No very rarely. Well you put another word in between each letter of the other word sort of like Ah ma mum Put it on Neighbours it's an alibi mum where they'd say mum. first letter of one word put allay and then the last letters of the word sort of like He Helen will be Halibin like that you see and that's how we talk at work if we got a get Mum , mum if we gotta wind someone up sort of like one of the girls fancies a bloke she'll tell it to his face, but in back slang so he don't know she's saying they go er, what? Plenty of women down there? Loads. Must I bet they're all Dad! made redundant, Sort of like, talk about this toilet, say I'm going toalibi to I go,toalibi Allay I to loogoo is to galagy is go tolagee is two galaga tolagol and And we all speak like that at work, ha. Ricky, leave it! Get out! I don't want you. Daddy. Yeah, kettle's gone Kettle has gone off. I don't it will water. take his advice . Not you either Ricky leave the dog alone. What? Leave it! I Remember to stroke it gently. Oh! er er er You Yuk! I went to that at Jasons' I think I'll go and find that erm Aah! I just don't know what was wrong with it, I've work, Jason said Ja we a subject turned to what he wore in bed Ja and Jason said nothing, right but he said when it's winter I wear my t-shirt and the pants and I cuddle up to my glow worm and we was all taking the mickey out of his glow worm, right so I've come home and I read the paper and I'll see glow worm in it, so I cut it out and give it to him and he stuck it up in the factory ! So every time everybody goes past and goes how's your glow worm boy today and takes the mickey out of him! Mm. I said, and Roy was being rude though cos I said to Roy, I said, haven't you got a glow worm, he said no mine's got eyes on the end of it! Mine don't light up,it's got eyes on the end of it ! What did our Jason say? Stroke him nicely, her nicely whatever it is. no That's a nose. Coco the clown. mummy, mummy! What have you called it Coco for? Woooh! Cos it's You dog you No not no What you doing? No if anybody go to sleep Yeah I mean before , so I said yeah I said er Dad dad, hurry ! Hold I've gotta my words on you go go on couldn't tell anything else about it, I said yeah it had an orange on and he said, you got the lea oh course Dad Dad should be erm No. he said You want drinky? Mhm. Tell mummy apparently he's still got a lead Tell mummy. I said yeah but I mean Look! hang on a minute! I sa I said the lead You got our gloves? me mees I've got our gloves. Dog's got the gloves. Get our gloves. Daddy. Get out dog ! I said yeah,lead. Tell mummy. I want a drink. Hang on a minute, you can have some of mine. Mummy. Aye? I said yeah the collar on I said the collar and the lead, match so he bought the collar out of his pocket and goes Mama he said por I said yeah then I said mummy. can I have a look at the lead? He said oh you can't have the lead mummy . they match, and he said well he said you can pick it up And that's all ! Me me me me. Ah! ah ah ah. your feet that time and get on with it. Aah ! .Aah ! Helen. Yeah alright. Just leave him, be. bloody , can't afford no chips,go and get us some. Ah ah ah ah. Well you can't get some, when it's late hey? Oh! Ask him? Will you pop and get some chips if I get you some money? Get yourself some, if you want. Ah ah Aye? Yeah. Will you? Aah ! Will you? Yeah if you let me pay. I don't know we've gotta wait till they go. If you go in the chemist shop, they have pens Only have for signing He had one, two, three Shut up ! no, one want one? Shut up! Shut up! Several portions, gave us all all the scraps and salt and vinegar. If I can go to and get two pounds of No better get them several portions. Ooh I will pay I wi Get salt, the scraps and salt vinegar we'll eat. Got a pen then? No I kept on meaning to get one though. Oh wah! Oh down our chemist. Go in the chemist, they'll have a pen inside twenty prescription. What happens boys out over there. No I don't have to cos I always fill mine in when I'm in there. I know you don't have to, you told me. That that. Matter. Aha that! Where's my other leg? Ee. Nana you ! mummy got some, look. Let's see. Ee that! Ricky pass mummy the ashtray? Ah! Ah! Ah! Ah! er er er er I'm going out That one? tomorrow night then Have that bit, go on then. Hold it properly. Is it there? Hold it properly. Don't be too long cos I've gotta go home. That's nanny Pu is it? Gotta put this in, ain't I so I'll say can I come ba I Oh Ricky! I'm gonna say can I come back over for it. Mm. get a table Yub yub yub yub yub good girl. Mind don't spill the tea shouldn't make it so bloody That pale. That Why don't you come? Come on Dad. No. Come on. Where's your letters anyway, you should be looking at Twelve. Not nine pound got fourteen pound and a a bit eight pounds tax, and five pound in National Insurance, so I bought home eighty four pound Shut the door! Where is the letters, anyway? In here I'll look for them when you're out. Where's the dog? Don't slam the door see you That's not bank. Aye get in! Bank's usually got a window envelope innit? Dog! He's so . Oh no! That one's a bit burnt cos Bernie left it on top of the cooker Where's the dog ? Out here go on, get in! Come on Let's just, you know, open the door. I cou couldn't see touch my leg Get here ! Just don't kick it! Might kick , don't kick mine leave it Come on. smells burning. What is it? No dog! Let her drink that tea! Warm, warm. Yeah, drink it up then. now cool it is. Drink it up now. Yes My shoulder really aches. Look in there! Ha where? No touch! Hey Oh. Oh dear! Oh oh. Then they're be moving we'll be nearer then. Hee ah hee Come down occasionally can't you? How many tapes you got there? Twenty Got to fill the bloody tapes in a week, if I could. Yeah. Don't you wear it a does, do they know you wear it at work? Can't wear at work. No, in the canteen. I ain't done it yet. Oh. Still gotta out. Oh and how you pocket Yeah. and clip the thing on there and they'll think it's a bloody radio or something! Yeah you wanna get some headphones for that as well, then that makes all I've got some headphones. Yeah well they're not made to work are they They're at work cos they No I can't afford this. No you don't plug them in, just put the wire in your pocket then they'll think they can just listen to music. Well then they won't talk to me they won't take any notice anyway, if they do, I've got a letter I can tell them what I'm doing. Go on expla a letter will make a Well drink up! people if they say what the hell are you doing. You what? Hey down! Just drink it She's stirred him up. properly! If people say to you I'm drinking it properly what the hell are you doing, you give them that and if they say they don't wish to be on the tape you have to erase their voice. Oh. Na Some people might not object although it's anonymous Me. no one knows whose voice it is but It's nanny Me go me go. I've got about ten of them to give people if they ask we what are you doing. Look a Ack is it? Yeah, can't you tell they're from bloody dictionary,all the wording on the letter. Ack and I got I get twenty five quid for doing it. Mum. Mm. Mum? What? Well I get twenty five quid's worth of vouchers from Marks and Spencers I shall buy Stuart a shirt, I'll give it for something for Christmas, won't it? See that erm yet together they will provide the permanent record of how the English language is spoken in the Ouch! nineteen nineties. Yeah. Mm. Thought to start, it'd be a bit of fun no harm is it Aah! You ! I'll bite Rick and more Ricky, don't bite back! Rick. And my turn. Well leave it then! Are you weed yourself? Mm well Leave it! It's no wonder it bites you Ricky. It's alright. Yeah Ricky yeah bit. Helen,he'll hurt it. He we go girl Ooh which one up here now sit still! Keep still. Me ear. Anna ! I don't want it, put it up there. father. Shouldn't do that. Ooh ooh. Say Nan. Yes, Da da da likes him. Look Full of moans and groans as usual. Nan? Look nana. Ha? That dog's trying to lick that Probably wants a drink. Ma ma . Wants some food, I know that. Well give it some blooming food then! All it eat right, is since the stuff's been back last Sunday, he's had what we eat, what our scraps left over from dinner. Cor . He don't eat Ah going Ah, ah get him something dogs like to eat. Well go and get it fed then! Go in Jonathan. Thought the tin was out there. Ah ah get off my . Mine! Mine! Na na na na. Mine! Mine! It ain't a bad night look we got thirty eight pence on label and it was twenty nine. Mm. Twenty nine pence. Na na na na na na I'll fit in it. Yeah go on. Here boy! Look wait! A Yeah. Will Dad be in that? No. That No touch are you a good boy. Yeah. Are you? Where's dinner? I dunno if you're supposed to put water in this dinners or what? No it's best leave it dry in a separate What and put it in a ? Yep it's separate separate water. I dunno here are , dinner. bit of mutton I you ought to call it mutton. How? Come here away from it, so it can have its dinner come on. Oh no. Come on, leave it alone. No look. It's got a whole tin in that dish that'll fill it up won't it? Never mind. Oh see him. Well I know, but he didn't have top dog meat since he's been here. Not since he's been back for a week. Say that whole tin will do it, won't it? Today I tried to get a whole tin every day, it's just because it happened. Say that. Leave her alone, come on! You have been feeding it though? Course I have, been giving it a what we've had, like when the kids didn't eat their dinner or we ain't eat all our dinner been giving it what's left on the plate, well and he's had chops and mash and all that lot. Bananas. Had a bit of everything chips We'll put it all in one dish an it'll eat it all. Shouldn't pe leave her to lick the plates though. No, no I scrape them from the plates into its own dish Greg come here let's have you having dinner come on. Me me me eat it. Yeah Uncle Jonathan's gonna get you some. Me me eat. That was . Me me me me mu Ricky come in here please darling. See Jonathan's gonna get you some Jonathan's gotta get you some leave him alone. Me mu Or out Ricky it will! Look at that! That will bite it back at you, if you just go near it, when it's having dinner and I don't like Woof woof for John Arghh! Come and sit down Anna Uncle Jonathan's getting you some now come on, come and sit down. Eat. Michael was it got ever so big. Yeah. Well we gotta buy it for one three quid Ahh! Ahh! well they all go in the pet shop, all but one. Yeah? I got to go. Funny looking thing. No it's just that erm, Mandy and Jeff tried it when she wasn't on them her little 'un out the way please Ricky can I have a look? Oh yeah. what it is. Ow ow ow Out! Out dog. Daren't lo stick my fingers in too much, he might bite me, cos he got teeth now Well they're all in there scrambled up together Oh there's Bernie and Jeff. Hi. Hello erm Granny. Yeah I don't Dad? Dad? Dad? Yeah I know. Look you can read the questions. Hello, hello, hello. Oh. No that was Try Bill? Hey daddy ! Hi ya Dad. I said there might be a connection. Daddy, daddy daddy? Do you wanna take your coat off. What? Daddy. Look puppy. Yuk! Yeah. Is that your Cortina? Ah Dada It's a Renault. I hear you want one ? help. You got a case. I hear you want one. Yeah I do. Ain't got a case Mum? got a case for it Mum? No cos the dog'll bite you, cos it's having its dinner, You're not. Cos it's having its dinner if you got a case you Me me me me biscuit me It only wants to go for a little 'un now and I'll say, right that dog'll be out the door. Mum? Definitely. Yes. that dog. Ricky! Tell him. Stop it now. Cos he's eating. He's eating Ricky. We haven't seen him How? Don't kick it ! No! No! Kick. Don't take the piss! No did you? That's bad that is, innit? Very bad. How are you then Ann? Ow! Alright Her tapes are finally in. Have you finished with your crap, yeah? that stuff down there. Cos it's in that What's that? box All mine. What is it? Identity card. Oh. They're taping what you're saying. Who? Erm, a man ca Anybody. a man went to mum's door and asked her Oh better turn it off. a oh oh. Yeah Bernie mm Mm. Bernie! Bern! Hey ! Bern? What? Look Where I gotta look? Didn't you bring any Helen? What, I can't see them thirty three I have you leave them milk tubs there cos I've had enough of them no leave it. What have you done? Cleared out the fridge leave them we've got many of them to go. I know, I see him the other day. No I asked her to start but that's all, and I kept that in the meant to be setting up a place in the posh area but they gotta have Doesn't work, though. Didn't he mend it? cos you're not supposed to stick the knife in, are you? No. No. I do that, I've done that before. Nan did that and buggered hers up. I know that'll take a long time to do it though won't it? You get some boiling water in a bowl and stand in th heat of the boiling water will melt it what I used to do. Not so quick is it? Yeah get a little bowl and stand it in. Get somewhere. Hel? I might have to do that wet, hey? Helen? What? Next weekend. Moving? Next weekend. What, next Thursday? Next Saturday. What afternoon? I don't know. Because I'm gonna have to still have the Saturday for my shopping, aren't I? Got work tomorrow. Do it Friday night go Friday night. No what was I saying, oh yeah, when the machines at work break we got the fitter there cos you've always got a fitter about, ain't you, when they go wrong? And they're always going wrong. What? Well anyway this woman the machine got water on the switch and every time you turn the switch on mummy let me have my blanket. it bleeps Hello. so the boy went to Pam and got a Hello. hairdryer to dry it out right and he's drying this switch out with the hairdryer and all and everything turned the switch on and about five hundred volts were on shock so they had to call Might get one in you. they had to call a special engineer Is that what happened out. Yeah well he reckoned They had to call a special engineer What a wha what are they? out. Who are they? Yeah you must, did you, did they put salt and vinegar on them. no. Have to a have a slice of bread or something, won't you? Ah Ah ah! Here's yours. Hundred milligrams. What is it? Hundred milligrams. Let's have a look at the packet. All readers hang on a minute Careto Profaine good stuff. I Alright . Read all of this stuff At that at that. Wonder why I gotta double it? At that. Don't know I sink the , I went and turned the bottom as well got i It's a blooming extra one you're supposed to have twenty eight thirty. A third. What's that? Tablets. You ca yeah Yeah you can't For Jonathan's poorly leg. For my poorly leg. What's that? Ta. Oh no! Put I'm in full time education tick it pay for it she said er what you on then? Dada. I said I'm on a YTS, she went oh she said I don't know if you're for them, I said er well if you don't I'll find out and then tell you at the she goes, yeah, we'll do that she says but I do , I don't know if owe have to pay for them or not, you know she said I think you're supposed to have a form. Yeah. Salt. Come on you two. Big Bern. Mine's alright you heard Bernie little thingamy cup with the There's the salt in the cupboard ooh you got the vinegar. Ricky Ricky Ricky me me, me me me me. Blow it, it's hot Pull it down so she can reach. Ha ha. eat it Oy! What? Eat it. Ah Bernie. Oh thought the dog eat it, cos they won't eat their chips. Thursday the twelfth of December at eleven am. No my chips! What is it? You are the Lord thought you said there were that one it doesn't say No, mine! Me do it. No because they cou first, that's been here about three weeks and the little one's only been here two weeks. Oh initial training will be on the twelfth of December. Finished. Best day to have it on. We shut down first Friday something What is this? I don't know got my Christmas party, that day at work. Well they can see you. No a I've gotta go, I've gotta get on the training cos Ay! At atch, atch. Hot, mm. Hard work Got a Christmas due about that as well. Good. Ow! Ow! Owwww! Ow! What? Don't No! Got exactly the same haven't you,? Put it in last year. ! Oh well No! Wanna drink. No. ? First training centre. I'd say it's not Tech was, yes. No. Cos that's a girl a college Don't they have a day release thing? Yeah. Yeah. Well Is that Hill Street Training Centre? I'm just saying there was mine was Tech, I expect the college at the old college. Yeah, cos you been the college up there didn't you? Yeah That's the only bit I hated I'd rather have been at work all week and I didn't I think you I didn't used to like going to college once a week. In the chip shop we bought some fish out the fryer and put in the top and straight away got them bloody tongs picked it up and poured the bloody grease off it and put it in the bloody bag thought it was terrible. Well it was if it's only just come through from the fryer Yeah I know but they had literally poured it off. Ta take me out. There dog. He's eaten hers off the floor. Yeah. I'm a good girl cat. No don't poke in the head cos Granddad's can't work. Mm. Got a packet for when we get home so I that's got to make my . I I ooh Ah Oh Ah! Ah! Ah! Ooh mind Jonathan's knee darling, it's poorly. Out the way! Got a scrap . What? New carpet then Ah! look cleaner than this. Ah! never mentioned it. What? Leave it. What? No! Hat. Hat Da ad. much more of that without anything At else. Ay! No don't play trampolines sit down please now ! She's gotten them all round here Sit! look. Hello. Dad. Look at her look salty . Yeah. Were not having them. I mum chi chi chip No! Are you gonna sit down with Ricky and eat them? Yeah. Hey? Me me me. Are you going to sit down? Me. Sit down then sit down then. Sit down Ricky. Me i i Sit down over there with Ricky and I'll bring them to you. Tripping over her shoe laces. Sit down then. Sit down then. You jammy little pest. Here are. Look at her all sweet and innocent, and when I turn away she'll nick a chip I can see you sit down! Sit down! There. Oh chip! Here are. Chip! Do you want a smack bum? That's what you get if you got a throw a paddy now ain't gonna eat them? Back nana. Yes. Back nana. She's alright sitting there. Mm. Dad yeah, right What? in there? Dad. Nanny soon have to go where do I go? . Where am I going? Who am I going to see? Dunno Pardon? Stuart. Stuart? Yeah. We'll pay twelve ninety four wouldn't you ? No. Well what colour they made your leg stop hurting. And then Ha . I hope to say if used to work. Ooh yeah. Ha ha ha. What col ol our? I wouldn't live with your father if he took drugs, I'll tell you be dead. They don't taste of nothing if they're capsules. They do. Perhaps cos there's usually sort of like a thin plastic Do you wanna taste one? ar'nt they? What? mum? You wanna taste one? Usually sort of like a thin plastic over Wanna taste one? over the powder innit? Do you wanna taste one? No they're dissolvable plastic innit? What is that? Usually got no taste. All that matters is your leg gets better dear. Daddy? Won't he be wondering where No. you are? Who? Father. What was that? Oh that lad next door. Oy ! Now where was that? Under the table you'll find a chip . The one lives next door to me. Definitely crossword time, I've gotta have a go at it but there's not a lot left in there nothing in the teapot No it's Sorry, do you want another one? Do you want me to go and make you another one? No that's alright, I'll do it. He is erm He's got a twice as big a cup as you have. No I haven't. Oh you have. Alright? Yeah. Yeah, alright, yes. Yes mum chuck us the paper mother. Aye? See how well we do this week. Are you warm enough? Yeah, it's not cold, are you cold? No I'm alright. Page. Okay okay one, two, three that's it. Really. Right, are you ready girls? Yeah. Yes Stuart. Alright, here we go then. Girls, we're called girls now, that sounds Ha, ha, ha, ha. good. Fish of a carp family, five letters . Oh god . Yeah let's not bother Perch. doing it, cos that wo , let's not bother doing the questions. Could be a perch it's quite safe. Yes. I don't think so er ha A mulch? but I don't know any others. Carp. No, I want one of the carp family never mind,a riddle in a cracker, five letters . Mot oh motto. Yes. Motto. Easy. Yeah. Should do it in pencil. Ancient name for the Spanish Peninsula, six letters Erm now that's one for you. What is it? Iberia. Mhm. A young eel, five letters Elver. Neutered cock bird, five letters . Oh what do they call it, what you have at Christmas instead of? Capon. Capon. Capon. It's not allowed now actually. Capon? Is that it? No can't sell you a capon any more, not now. Can't he? Why not, European market again? I don't think it's anything to do with that, but I know there's a you can't have a capon any more. Oh you can't an all. Tree or shrub with white or yellow flowers, six letter . Could be loads, couldn't it. Yeah here's one It's white or yellow forsythia, they've got white yellow but They've got yellow on same white as . No? No religion revealed through Mohammed . Islam innit? The Russian wolf hound, six letters . Erm. No takers? No. One nautical mile per hour, four letters Knot. One of the gospels, four letters . Try Mark, Luke or John. Ruth. Better leave that one. Mark, Luke or John innit? Matthew, Mark oh eh, sorry The gospel it might be . We'll have to wait until we get Or they are It's only Matthew that it's not . Matthew, Mark, Luke and John yeah all those I got. Meeting for spiritualistic phenomena . A seance That's what Spell that. Shirley wanted us to go to. Who did? That's what Shirley said, are you coming to church so she go she goes to a spiritualist. Oh does she? I said no staying at, mum, she said well bring mum I said I don't think her a her her scene. Ha. Wouldn't of minded. Wouldn't you? Oh I'll take you some time then, I love it. Yeah I wouldn't mind it Ann. I love it, I do. You been before? That's oh yes lots hundreds I always go Well there you are, why didn't you say? Well I didn't think you might not be interested. Ann yo yo I'm not yo a Have you been before? No, but I've told you You'd like to thing got a book in here about it. Shirley's really into it, I used to be. Is she? I used to be, but I haven't been for a long while I used to we can't say that I was there last year but Alright then, can I go there is Well any Sundays. It's a Isn't it behind Angles Where? Behind Angles Theatre on Alexander Road. Oh that's right, that's right. It's every Sunday, Shirley goes ev they've gone now. She doesn't, does she? Does she go? Mm sometimes in the week she goes as well. Does she really? Look sorry, we're talking again. Sorry dear Ooh . Alright we'll go then not next week cos She er Sheila will be here. Aye alright alright. Next one dear, sorry . One who manages another's business We can take it up One who manages another's business Nosey Parker! Manager. Oh innit just. Five letters, no? Words of songs, six letters . Lyrics. Birthplace of Saint Theresa, five letters . Who knows. Yep. Theresa, India she's the she's the Indian isn't she the No birthplace of not Mother Theresa, Saint Theresa. Oh sorry sorry. Italian city famous for its holy shroud, five letters . Turin. Turin. Style of architecture etcetera, prevalent during the reign of Louis the fifteenth Oh six letters God! Ico rococo or something like that. Yeah. Aye? I think you're probably right. Yeah probably is. There you are you are I'm not much good at these Device for drawing premium bonds winners Ah I dunno. Bird, a female of the ruff, five letters . Female of the ruff? Female of the what? The what? The ruff. What is a A ruff a bird Yeah but you wrote it in, so you must know the answer, I saw you write it in what's the answer? A reeve. Oh. Yeah. Thank you, at least as if he knows. Aha. A Shakespeare comedy, three, seven, four Three, seven, four seven twelfth night The twelfth night? No. What is it then? Not a lot I can I do with this much, The Winter's Tale. The Winter's Tale. Kind of orange, five letters . Seville. Five letters. That's six er what then? Navel. Navel. King of Tire who assisted Solomon in the building of the Temple, five letters . Charlie. Dunno David Charlie Bloggs. Blank I R, blank Paddy. Blank I R Blank M know this one Tira ? Hieroglyphics. Tima Tiram. Tiram. Don't know. Tiram One of the divisions of a flower calyx, five letters . Petal. What is a flower calyx? Probably a petal. Oh. Portuguese enclave in China, five letters M A C Oh god! blank blank Macau Semi precious stone, five letters T blank P blank, blank. Topaz Topez =az. Vincenti Biasco writer of the Four Horseman of the Apocalypse etcetera No idea. We've got six letters Comedy by Oscar Wilde one, five, two, two, ten . A Yeah, a A something something, something something erm of the no something. And something of something. Something of of of erm something. ? No that's No. Charles Dickens. Oh. No we'll have to see if we get some words and get that Sailor, not an officer, six letters . Mutloe Scrooge's late partner whose ghost appears in a Christmas Marley. carol six letters . Marley's ghost. Native of the largest of the continents, five letters . Asia. County in Eire five letters C L blank R E Clare. The American buffalo, five letters blank I blank O blank bison? Bison. Mhm. Lady Nancy the first Astor woman MP to take . Astor blank S T O R. Well I know it without you telling me the blanks! Nancy Astor. Nest of a bird of prey , five letters. Bu not bad, not bad, not bad at all. At first go through them. Not bad at all. Go on then try and s of the carp family, five letters , T blank N blank H. Tench. Must be a the gospel is blank blank R blank, so it must be Mark. Mark. Now what we got here One who manages another's business A G E blank blank. Agent. Agent. The Russian wolf hound is the blank U R Z blank blank. Oh yeah, it's a funny name. Bu something, Burzoi? Yeah something like that. Cos that Macau bit, sometimes they spell Macau with an O R or U could be Macau with an could be burzoi. Yeah something like that, funny name. Could be Burzoi not sure. You got a headache again? I knew you had We ain't going out tonight, we're stopping here well I am We are. I'm not! What? Not going to bus stop tonight as well. No you're not! We are! I'm alright Ann. Well I'm stopping the night No you're not. unless you're gonna chuck me out. I'm alright, No you're not you got bad head again, you're Well alright, not that bad. Couple of couple of tablets. I'm alright, tell her I'm alright. Yeah for goodness sake! I'm alright Ann really I am, don't be silly. Couple of tablets. Tree or shrub with white of yellow flowers begins in a and ends in a, six letters. Ah? Begins in a and ends with a. Yeah. Oh dear. Begins with a? Yeah. And ends with a? Yeah. I don't know,, I better get my Gardening book out. gardening catalogue ready, yes I got one there they keep sending me them I never Astor no What about Acacia? Oh yeah Acacia. Acacia Mm Clever dick. No looks as though it's well no it could be seeple What? Oh. Flower I don't know what a calyx is, I just thought petal fitted in, I mean I don't know. Mm could be seeple What's a calyx then? Well calyx is in in the flower, in the Oh well if it's seeple then it won't be the petal will it? Because isn't in there. six letters so, all you need is one two, three, four Birthplace of erm Saint Theresa is a blank I blank A. Mm sshh sshh better look that up. I know. In Asia. Erm comedy by Oscar Wilde is th loo I think it's Woman A Woman of no Importance. Importance. A woman of no importance. Is that what it is? I think so. Yeah. Not sure Burzoi is it? Borz Yeah it is But I couldn't tell you ho how to spell it, but it is some funny name like that. Vincenti Blasgo sh writer of the Four Horseman of the Apocalypse is I B blank N blank blank. Oh, no idea. I b? Mm. It wouldn't be addition, would it? No be in a It's the Burzoi Be in a In a way your book things. Be in a dic er encyclopedia, won't it. Yeah. Shall I go look it up? Mm. If you like in with budgies. Yeah. Well pu put the cover over them Stuart. Put the cover on them. Or shut the gate cos if not they'll come out you'll find. Can't fly in the dark. Yeah but he's gonna ? put the light on. Yeah, they'll come out of it they think it's daylight again. When you put the light on then they come out and then I'm in trouble, I can't get them back in Yeah I know. again. No cos it's dark and they won't fly. Yeah then yo yo you strip the light off, I've had all that. Yeah they won't fly when it's dark, they just stay where If you come out and then you put the light off yo yo they've got to su the way you put them in the cage. They can't fly at night. Yeah, don't worry about me Ann, I'm alright. You're not right, you're not like you should be. Well I know No a I can't see that that Friday is now Sunday night. Oh yeah but it's not too bad I'm alright I really am I feel a hell of a lot better. Maybe, you still got a headache, and you're still not right you wouldn't of I'm alright. gone to sleep if you were alright No never mind and you're going the doctor's we'll make appointment tomorrow cos you won't and if I make one you'll have to blooming go and do it . Oh. I think I'm a I'm a I am I feel a lot better. I can't see that that could of been Friday's episode that's still effecting you today. give it to me. You don't know, depends on what it is. No way. You might have a touch of blood pressure or something, you don't know and i Yes. if you have it wants treating no good waiting till you're really ill is it? Better to go in to nothing and then not go and it is something. You I feel a lot better probably you're going to be with you, just sitting about I know. makes you feel tired dunnit? Does makes you feel tired, when you don't do anything. It does Ann. You seem more tired than if you had of been a really hard day. Yeah had a bit of you know, I didn't busy place and Friday was lasagne for the Ininghams They not well? All done. What is it then? Who wrote the Four Horseman I it's actually spelt Ibanez I B A N E Z I mean I've heard of the Four Horseman and the Apocalypse but I never know who wrote it. Ibanez but it's pronounced Ibania Oh. and Saint Theresa was born at Avila, A V I L A, Avila. All done. Very good, is that the lot now ? Today. Yeah we're getting better. And we've got time for a for another quiz now ain't you? Mm don't think mum's in the mood for a quiz read. Yeah I don't mind. Ha ha ha. What you want the cards? It's up to you. I don't mind it's up to you. It's up to you! No it's not it's up to you. There's nothing on the telly is there? No. As far as I know no. No there never is at this time of day, there isn't news No. an Songs of Praise? The Money Programme The Cosby Show Oh yeah. Highway Beadle's About at quarter past seven and the Ruth Rendell Mysteries at seven forty five. What time's London's Burning on, nine o' clock? Eight forty five. Oh eight forty five tonight, if yo what time till then, ten? Nine forty five. What eighty twenty five, what's that Ann? London's Burning, second epis Oh eh that's what you watch yes. episode. Don't miss the last this last of the episode? Yeah it's the last one series as the massive warehouse finally While Howard is being put into the Ambulance the press are hounding Isn't that funny that reminds me of an old girl I had at Dennis House the one I used to be on i I used to have to get her in bed get her all propped up and then Did you? I used to have to go back up, after the supper and give her the and I had to go back up and turn London's Burning on then I used to have to go back up to turn it off but usually when I went back up to do it, she'd be sleeping. She's sleeping anyway, she'd fall asleep in the middle of it . And there would be London Burning bashing away and she'd be and I'd go in and I'd turn it off and then then then you know and she'd say I don't watch it regular, now and then. Oh I do like that programme,she'd say But I watch the film she the film, Jack Rosenthal wha made a film Yeah. which the then they did the series off it. Yeah oh it's quite good I've seen some of that But the film was really good, I've seen the odd one, if there's been nothing on. Yeah. But last week she went to the It was good. pub an it and it really was good,an and because o these fireman are trapped Yes. and that then I thought, and then when it finished I didn't realize it was two parts, you see, and I thought well that's a funny way I mean you I don't know if they're dead or alive or and then it said see the next one, next week. Oh I see. I thought oh, ha Yeah. We just, I mean I just started I'd I was ironing or something and I turned it over and it so I Yeah. didn't know it was two parts, till I and I thought what a funny way to end, I mean are they dead Yeah. or are they alive or are they gonna get them out. Where's the cards then? Where are they? In the airing cupboard. What they've dropped down there? That's right It's funny when you don't it's gonna be two part, I mean you don't know what heck's going on, innit? Gotta pick a card, any card. Oh listen to it. Gonna tell my fortune, aren't you? Right then what's it gonna be what do you predict for my future, Is, I say, is Shirley The longer the longer you stay with me and Ann the better. Ooh ooh ooh ooh! Yeah and the longer The longer your health and happiness will continue. Ooh listen to Erm him, will you. Oh for god's sake! Why you want the cards? Yeah ge get a pen and then we can add it up. Shirley wants to be . Don't cheat don't look at the answers, take it away from her face. I'm not gonna see. I'll do rounds. You want a bit of paper oh you got a bit. No that will be alright. You predi predict we're gonna get a nice house and Yes, yes. and live happily after do you? Yes. Oh alright then. we haven't got much paper now. Mus mustn't make an offer of something before we lose that one. But then the thing is what are you on next week? Earlies? Earlies Oh well you're not so bad then are you? Well I mean we're off tomorrow so we might as well Yeah got on with it. Depends what time I get up. You get up all day, doesn't matter we'll go in the afternoon. Yeah you get out. Don't normally get up till three o'clock. You get up! You'll be up before three o'clock,matey ! I'll leave you till lunchtime but that's your lot. I tell you what you do Ann tonight Hide the whisky up. That's the . And the records. That's my girl. Mother! Your Yes. question. See he's blushing now! Mother, your question Don't have to stop up all night and I sleep all day Ann will get fed up with you she won't wanna buy house with you if you do No. that will you? So Anyway living in a flat you might have somebody downstairs that'll beat you up. Yes mum. Did you tell Ann about the noisy the television, no?you didn't did you? Yep. Good for you. Well if the people at the back of her were having terrible row ah I I ha I hated it, it was horrible. Who was? The people who were lived behind Ann there's a yo young couple in there I think he beat her up, I mean that I wanted to go round me, because I know what it felt like and I wished somebody had come and help me. What? She was a scream. Could you No. hear it? Oh it was terrible. You didn't? Yeah and Ann was on about it you see and I said oh well some noisy bloody neighbours and I and I said oh well it's like your telly innit ! Our telly? I said yeah well that keeps us awake as well! Did she? Oh, she said oh oh. Oh it was horrible not the first time. Well have you heard them? Well she screamed and he I reckon she locked herself in the bathroom and he about knocked the door down Well yo you wouldn't think they'd do that when they know that people can hear you. They don't ca they don't care I used to say that a if I said that to Steven pack it in, somebody will hear, he'd say well open the bloody windows and let them hear! Do you have you met the people? Have you seen them? I've seen her, well yeah I've seen them both but I don't know them, never spoken to them. Don't know what they're like? He looks a bit rough Police have Does he? been round there once or twice after him for a different thing. A is he? Oh dear! But it's her house I mean they ain't got no chi children or feel like saying to her whatever do you keep him there for. Is he, did you oh I see. It's her own home, I mean he come and live with her fo he does he belts her because I I y I know the signs and it oh it makes me go cold. Yeah. I feel like going round and Does he drink? I don't know. Does he get drunk or is he just violent? Oh bloody hell! Honestly What's up love? you hear of these things don't you? But I say sometimes when I was i like that I wished somebody would come round and knock on the door, perhaps Yes. just calm him down or something but I did I wonder how it works see people Ann I wonder how it it must feel if you hear that and you know it's a kid involved? Then I would report it. Would you? Oh yes. You feel a lot I wo i i if I'd of had a phone I'd have phoned the police then, I said to Stuart. Yeah. If I'd of had bi I'd have phoned the police and told them there's something awful going on next door. Yes. Women screaming. But they're not interested are they? Oh they have to nowadays. Oh do they? I thought they just called it a domestic and that was it. Well they used, but not now. No. But if it was a kid involved, I mean, well you would wouldn't you? Well I would. Yeah yeah, right. Mother's question. Sorry, oh here we go Ann! Ooh we're in trouble! Mother's question. Shut up Are you ready for mother's question? You'll have your peace Yes. tonight, when I've gone to bed. What is the capital of Switzerland ? Er Bal Baddel Incorrect, bonus to Ann. Geneva. Incorrect. Oh what is it then. Bern. Oh. Oh. I put that the other day, do you remember on the quiz? Oh yeah we had that the other night , cos I got it wrong the other night as well! Yeah quiz, I put Geneva down. Yeah so did I, No a no I put Ber I put Bern down. You put something else, I put Geneva, we were both wrong. I put Bern down originally and then I thought to myself Where was this, up the pub? Yeah. Oh you've had another quiz have you? Oh. So then I crossed it out and put Geneva. Yeah. So I got it wrong But I put Bern down originally Ann's question Where is the Orange Free State ? South America. Incorrect Mother's It is. bonus. Africa. South Africa. South Africa that's what I meant,not South America, that's what I meant. That's a bonus point to mother. Hooray! that's what I meant so I knew where it was Mother's question Which is the land of milk and honey ? Oh blimey, I should know that the land of milk and honey Denmark. Incorrect Ann, for a bonus. Here. No it's Ha ha. in Don't know er Israel. Mm. Is it, I've never heard anything so daft! Ann's question The Atlas is the main mountain range of which country ? Ah America. Incorrect. Ha. Bonus to her mother. We're not doing very well, you got one, I got none. It's, the Atlas mountains er they're in Europe but where? Which country? They're in Spain. Th incorrect. Morocco. Oh. Mother's question What is the modern name of the Muscovite Empire ? Pakistan. Incorrect, bonus to Ann. Russia. Well the card says the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. Oh USSR! Yeah. So I think I'll give you that. Yes Yes We're not very good are we? Well What's the matter? We're doing te I tell you these are rotten cards. Ann's question Oh what are rocks with an imprint of an animal or plant Fossil. called ? Fossil. That's two points there mother In which country are goods and services paid for in escudos ? Not Erm Yugoslavia. Incorrect, bonus point to Ann. Portugal I think. Correct one bonus Good for Ann. point. I've heard of it Ann, but I couldn't Ann, Ann's question. I thought it was blooming escudos, yeah it is Portugal innit? What is the epicentre of an earthquake ? The centre. Might not be though. The core. She said the centre, the core, what are you looking it up for! Well, yeah alright then, okay. Course she is, what is it then? What else is it? Point on the surface immediately above Above the core. the actual I'll looking up see if I can see mother Are quakes stronger on the moon than on the earth ? Quakes or quacks? Quakes. Quackers! Edd the duck! Is it stronger on the moon, or is it Are quakes stronger on the moon than on the earth? We've never had any quakes er I should imagine, so yes. Say no instead. No. Alright I'll give you that. Mm. Ann's question What is the sea between Italy and Yugoslavia? Adriatic. Correct, two points. You're doing well Ann. Mother What? The distance from London to Moscow Oh God! is approximately fifteen hundred kilometres two and a half thousand kilometres or three and a half thousand kilometres ? Three and half thousand kilometres. Incorrect Ann Two and a half. Correct, bonus point Ann's question In which country are the ports of East London and Port Elizabeth ? South Africa . Correct. Ooh you are doing well. Ha. Mother. Yes. Which are Ask me something I know which are the two major religions of She of Japan ? Ooh I only know one. Ishitu Yeah Yep it's the only one I know. And the other one? Christianity? No. What is it? Buddhism? That'll do, two points to mother Ann's question Is it possible to re to traverse under the North Pole in mid-winter ? Yeah in a in a a submarine. Yes mother What is the Yucatan Canal ? It's a canal! No it's not actually. A waterway. Yes but where? Where? In the ? Where is the Yucatan? In the Yucon No. Japan. No no. Ha. The Yucatan peninsula, you know if you look at th the map of the South America mi Central America Mm. and then sort of the bits will go round like that and then Mm. and about goes like that Mm. then Cuba's about there Oh. well that's the Yucatan peninsula. Is it? Yeah. Oh. And the Yucatan Canal is the waterway that separates that bit from Oh not many people know that. Alright? No I certainly didn't ! And Ann's question. Not many people know that. Which are the only mid-ocean group of islands made from Granite ? Mm mid-ocean group of islands made of granite? Seychelles. Correct. Good for you Ann. That's only a blooming guess, I don't know of any mid-ocean bloody islands ! Good for you. Mother's question. Very clever, very impressed Impressed? I am. Which country has the largest number of people employed in manufacturing ? Oh my goodness, that's China. No. Japan. No no Russia. Oh well they're not doing very well are they? I was gonna say they're not manufacturing much. What's the matter, what's wrong with them then? I thought Japanese manufactured everything. Yeah, they don't make nothing. In which country is the His card's already out. in which country is the Quirrinelle Palace ? Quirrinelle Who's that question, Ann's or mine? Ann's. Quirrinelle Quirrinelle Palace which country? I dunno no I dunno. India. Nope, mum? No, Italy. A few miles away, we were ! Just a I think you should give us that, it's only a few miles away! Ah? Give us that Stu, it's only a few miles away. Mother. Yes. The Asian capital Let's go through that again please . No is called what, foreigners ? is called what, by foreigners ? The Asian capital! For crying out loud! It sounds like a Welsh The Asian capital! Oh shut up! Shut up Ah but it sounded like like a Welsh name didn't it? Aha Karachi. No. What then? Bangkok. Oh bloody hell! yo you're kidding? That isn't a question is it? The Asian capital Oh shut up! Krumfettmahanamanahulamoranosecanosemahanaritiraoosalalaramalapalapapopapopobaalacataltootoochepereelong is called we that's the question read it for yourself! There it is Good job I didn't have to read it ! So did I, that's ridiculous Our baby's kidding us! What is odd about the fact that admiral Horley ruled Hungary between the two War World Wars ? Hungary? Well it ain't got no sea so it wouldn't have an admiral. Correct two points Hungary had no navy for the simple reason that it did not and does not have a sea . Why the hell did he get an admiral in He must of been an admiral of title somewhere else, ha ha. Mm. Somebody else's navy. Ann sixteen. Good God! Mother Must be about most twelve points I've ever had ! You did well Ann. You got most of them right. Yeah you did you did well. So that's twenty Didn't she? four Most I've ever done, most of them Who's question's this then ? That's a seven out of ten, on her own and the top three top so Well done Ann. Well done Ann sixteen play five. Do you want me to you two now? Can do. Gonna beat me now, I should get that, can I have that card again please,that was a good one ! Where's the cards then Ann? Stuart's got them. Oh come on then. Why, I ain't got them. Well I haven't You got them. I give you them. No you didn't. They're by on the fireplace. Oh down there, I didn't know. You put them there, I give you them. I didn't there, you put them there! Did. No I didn't, stop arguing! Mark that one, a Yeah cos that for hardness for Christmas I'll have that ! Mark it a for Ann. Yeah. These are Ann's questions. Oh yeah but in, better make a Stuart's . Oh yes. No oh no that could be Sam's Ann. It could be Sam's Ann It'll be S M not S A, no A S put be fine now. What? I'm not, he'll beat me this time, you watch, I'll have a real hard one,I won't be able to answer anything ! Mhm. Well I couldn't answer any of these. Mm. Right. Don't, stop shuffling them! I'm not shuffling them, I'm just running through them that one Can't see without my glasses on. That's Ann's Right? Yes Yes And I'll pick one out for myself that's mine. Alright. Alright? Yeah, Ann and Stuart, okay? Right. Are you gonna Yeah I'll keep score. Yeah, you keep the scoring, alright that's Ann's Ann's Stuart, okay? Right Ann first? Yep. Right Right away you go then. Ann Hibernia is another name for ? Could have somewhere in Scotland Hibernia is another name for a country . A whole country?not just Scotland Oh I don't know then Scotland no, dunno. Ireland. That's right,, yep, Ireland Oh I I thought Hibernians ! So did I. I I I didn't know they was . Mhm Stuart Where do meteorites come from ? Meteorites? Met M E T E R M E T E O R I T E S Where do they come from? come, yeah where do they come from? The sky. Yeah well it says outer space but Outer space, yeah. Yeah alright? That's you, that was easy wasn't it? Mm, was for him Right He knows all about them kind of things, I don't well I knew where they come from but Ann In which large sea is the oh that's a funny word,in which large sea is the Aegean sea ? The Indian oce There is that's what it say. The Indian ocean. Mediterranean. Yes there's a funny question. I told you I wouldn't answer any of these. Yeah but that says it, which large sea is the Aegean sea it's not in India Is it part of another sea? Bit of it is Yeah, part of it. Just like Adriatic's part of the Mediterranean Yeah Right Alright Stuart Yes. Which ocean Yes. washes the North Carolina coast ? The North Carolina coast? Which ocean Atlantic North. That's right Stuart again Ann Mhm mm mm. Is la is Labrador part of Newfoundland ? Newfoundland. What was no, I dunno, no. No yes. Yes. You're right. Do I give the point to? Yes Oh. She said yes. No she didn't, she said no. She didn't, she said yes I wouldn't make it Ann, a bit hairy. Oh I see yeah. Newfoundland is not only the the island on the south coast of but includes as a continent. Oh. Didn't know that, do you? No, no. Stuart What does Rio Grandee mean ? Rio Grandee. Big river. Mm? Big river. Yep yes that's right Ann Ann Forlosa meaning beautiful in Portuguese is the other name of which island ? Taiwan. Yeah, correct, Ann's got that one, yes good for you, Ann Stuart What and where is the Great Barrier Reef ? It is a coral reef Yes. and it is off the eastern coast of Australia. Yeah, how many kilometres is is it? Fifteen hundred. Yeah, you're bloody right! Oh bloody hell ! Can I have an extra bonus point? No. it's f is, it is. It is, really. terrible! Yeah you've looked at these, haven't you? He did. Either that or special ! You cheating. No. He's had this before, hasn't he? Mhm mm. Well how did you know that? Yeah. Well anyway, never mind here are, Ann Oh which three European countries breed the finest , oh this should be in racehorses ? Dunno, which three? A european country breed Ireland the finest racehorses. Be Ireland France and England. Correct good for you! It's teaching me a little bit, you see. Yeah you're getting good, very good for you, good for you Ann. I thought that would be a trick question that but you're right, see now S Stuart which is the sunshine state of the USA ? California. Wrong Ann. Tex Texas. New Orleans. Florida. Mm, of course. You don't get anything for that. I know. Aha aha. for that Right, Ann what wine oh God!is made in a oh, Departement of the Marne, M A R N E ? I've no idea. Which wine in the Depar D E P A R T E M E N T Departement. Departement. But call it departement, it's like a cou it's like an English County. Yeah, oh. No idea whatsoever. the Marne, M A R N Grand Marnier no idea. Do you? I know a , the Departement of Marne, what was, I would but I'll have a guess at champagne. Yeah you're right it is champagne is that where it's made is it? Yeah. I thought it was made in Champagne th the district, Champagne, France that is a district innit? It's obviously in the Departement Oh I see. of Marne. Ann what No! Oh Stuart, sorry My question Yes your question now sorry, sorry Yes, yes, yes, yes what is tundra ? Tundra! Yes. You really wanna know what tundra is? yes. What is tundra? Mm. It is arctic wasteland erm it is the Yeah,, it's sub-arctic actually so I don't think you should get that. Doctors not encourage you to Wherever. Yeah but nothing cookers cheapest in town actually if you can find a er er the same make elsewhere Oh yeah. for cheaper, they have to refund the difference. Aha. That is their price that's their things their I mean it has to be a Alright? Hello! the same thing got the same make, I mean I can say well this is cheaper we'll you know And we'll see that microwave we were thinking about. Yes see reduced to a hundred and nineteen, took twenty quid off. It's already got fifty pound off. It's a quite good one, isn't it? It's got a hundred thirty nine up there, and it's got a hundred Yeah but voucher. What voucher? It's . Not too bad is it? No. What colour is it? Some of them are Our size Well whatever, what we have to do, we have to fill out a form and er I think erm Yes, fill out a form,There's my one. Bloody hell! A bit complicated innit? These Yeah. Collect it right away in it. Use combinations with the microwave and This is my one It's a . Well, if you want it Aye ? Course you can and then,it because erm the way they stain it if we can't fix it by the we'll take it. Similar to that. What to see if you Those will , those will do . That's good, yeah. Otherwise you just . fifty eight. Feel it. What do you think? Before we go My Are they Yep exactly as it came. My mum's. No excuse me, he thinks taking him ages for should of I I'll I can you pick it up tonight? Yeah, hope you can for you then. Right. You can get that one as soon as they even the one in the It was bigger though weren't it? Yeah, but the thing I'd smu my mum would we don't want one as far as these. No it's too big innit? Like that one, like that. Not necessary blow my nose he's gone to pay the extra that will do I mean if I think I've I've but are you? . Used to the my whole down there than it was hanging up the , really I mean No. doesn't matter anyway. Yeah. We could do with one for that in fact they'll be both Oh I like that , it's like that, it's like that . Me, I didn't. I want this one cos I don't they probably haven't got any Yeah yep. Oh and it's , to get a home over there Have we done? a microwave Have we done? The whole lot? come on Oh I know the overcharged me Gotta have bloody carpet We haven't got there yet though we got She, he seems quite er er from the place. Yes You've better make this appointment or they won't know her name and Oh Aye? Okay? Fine, thank you. Don't forget Yeah . Yes, thank you erm could you come before five o'clock, because of their staff . Oh I'd like to make an appointment to see Doctor please. Oh good. Just got married you see, she hasn't changed her address. She hasn't changed her address. We're together thank you. Thank you. Can I make an appointment please? Next there's one on Wednesday morning, Er okay. Pass me the erm yeah, Right. Ethel's just gone in there. No and er I checked with Hello Ruth I wasn't Penny's Oh and I you see I put it there. There's a real panic now! here we go! Here Yeah fine. Did you have one last week? Thanks ah that one. Oh right, Get him to come Sorry! He's not here at the moment so tired they really ought to find out Mm. About nine o'clock, you'll need to bring about a quarter of a bag Well I'll have to admit I do like that a lovely there isn't a fridge in er in a my either. What about one like that over there? What one? The one over by the Yeah , which one? That one there. Yeah, see that other one with nine two sixty nine and electric bulb. Yeah. Like mum's. Offers seventy quid back on your old one. And then you got seventy pounds worth of food vouchers as well, that's two hundred quid innit? wanna take that over Yep. Hello. Hello. Colin how you getting on, alright? Not so bad thanks. Good. I'm not I'm concentrating on cookers, microwaves and Cookers, microwaves , carpets. Bugger the rest! Freezers as well. Ha what did Stuart buy for Christmas? Well a cooker, a microwave, a fridge. What did you buy him? Well erm set of braces A Sony. A Sony Oh god! Hi! Hello there, how are you, alright? Yep. Yep. I wrapped , I wrapped a set of braces for him. Getting my room for Christmas good god! Could possibly could possibly. No I never thought that they will be a few days ! What is it? Relief can't want it in a fortnight it's not quite re another month's rent Yeah well we'll must go and do that quick. a day, a fortnight ha No. I'm not paying another month's rent, I know that won't be two hundred and fifty quid would buy enough curtains Alright? to Hello. Gatey way then now? Slim folk us So I'm not even looking in their shops any more. the other shop Oh god! Too much don't tell me they sell cookers in here Right look at these marvellous no I mean the It's the thing on your cupboards the thing's the same yep Top fridge one of these wait a minute all the same. Yep. Are they any good? So you can get the three in there, and bung them in as one package you get them while they got them voucher things on offer. That or that door? Whichever door you wish to go in darling. Oh. Ha ha I'll walk past this and open the door and then run down the other one and open that one! Yes Where's mum's fridge? I don't see what's carrying or any of the colour Can I ride? Can I sit in? No I want to. You want to sit in, oh. Any way you like dear I will breathe in. Ha can you get by? Think so? Might enjoy it,all these tellys all over the place. Look will you promise you won't open that. Give them ten for it . Right what do we need? , mincemeat, dried cat food Get mum a tin of soup Ahhhh! cos she ain't got any soup. You mean you'll have it! No mum can have it. She won't have it, you know very well she won't, what do you want? Er Mulligatawny, American and bacon, curried chicken, ham and mixed peppers erm not sure I think or Batchelors? We'll have a look at them banana or oh no I won't say it. She might have that she might, if she's cold, one day That's . More aisles are down there. Nothing down there. Let's have a look for the flour, I think Flour and mincemeat should all be round here. There's the flour what sort of flour do we want? Plain you pay for the thing I'll pay for these go on. Oh I've got ours for the so that's one fifty two and how much are these? Thirty seven Get a couple of these seventy, yes she is, two pound twenty, there are mum ten I'll give it in the change, two pound twenty up to now wanted a big one I looked at that but there's a heck of a lot of erm suet suet in it I think it'll end up runny rather than with nothing inside of it and if you've got unless you want one as large as that I thought to myself. When sh when she makes that for me. But ha won't toilet rolls for you. Ta almost And sultana and nutmeg. She's got in a lot of . Mm tea bags, we must take back with us. Tea bags. Oh you Mm. What colour? Aye? Which colour? Oh bloody hell! Don't think it makes a lot of difference what colour. It doesn't, so you won't mind? No, no, no, no What do you want, a four or two? Make it a four, take it . Well they're seventy three for two and one twenty seven for four. Well better make it a four then. That's what I usually get, the four mind you, there's a cheaper one still, there but you want one of one of them. No. They're not very good. Bog rolls. There's a twin pack here or will she want the bigger pack? How much? Eighty nine P. How much? Eighty nine. That's one seventy nine cheaper, they're only one thirty nine for four. I know. They'll always come in handy. I just hope they wo , they didn't have any the other day, did they, twin packs? They have now. I mean still use one Yes. and so, they'll need to buy two that's And for when people stay cos the other ones might go cos they're normally put in together. Leave one for mum,the rest of us. Mm, it'll go yeah. Course it will. Nothing down here we want cat food, lard and Ryvita Ryvita will be down the bottom here, I suppose and lard is right she wants brown Ryvita quickly. That the one that's the one she has ah yes yes. So we we'll try lard up that Are we gonna it's are we gonna get the cat food from here or are we gonna get the cat food from somewhere else? Get the cat food in here, it'll be cheaper. No I mean Julie's loose loose in the pet shop. One of the old kind in there. Coffee we said we thought we would get her some coffee while we were here didn't we? Yeah. Might as well cos I mean might as well get a special offer as and she wouldn't carry a big one you see. Three fifteen plus two what, did I say? Two twenty. That's five thirty Well you getting that five. aye? Why is that for us? No it's for . Might as well be a big one take them home, leave some at mum's and take the rest home. Well I thought if I get one this size, that will do for a few weeks rather than take some of them home and mess about better than there's a big packet like a big one at home I've just opened this morning so it's packets of bog roll. Well cos she can't. You get No, no! every time you go loo. No I want that one. Five thirty five Where else? Where else? No I can't ge I'm not buying I'm shopping as well all we want is cat food do you wanna go to pet shop or butchers along so Anything special Yes dried cat food. What does it look like? get us a couple of tins as well. Yes No, no, yes. Here? Change your mind now, what do you want? Want Rumpole tonight. Yeah Rumpole and Last one. Coronation Street. Last one of the series. Yeah I know, they weren't very long series was it? Half a dozen, that's all it's been. Coronation Street, half past seven till eight, Rumpole from nine to ten so you can come out between eight and nine and ten and ele le le le eight and nine and ten and eleven, so you got time for couple between eight and nine and a couple between ten and eleven, how's that? I've got time? Yeah. You mean Stuey's got time ! Well I'll stay and have my bath between eight and nine and you can go and have a drink no I don't think I'll be going out this evening. The accelerator is the one on the right sir! He is an old gentleman, dear but er he isn't in a hurry what so ever. Look he's slowing down there! Now he oh, oh he's found the accelerator! Bloody hell! He's found it! He's realizes which one it is bloody hell! He's getting too fast now! Might be up to thirty. No, no. We're actually going a bit over thir we were going forty five, we're now back to forty now. Perhaps she's told him he's going too fast! Careful, slow down! It's forty mile an hour zone anyway, so he's in the right and you're in the wrong anyway. It is not a forty mile an hour zone, so you're in the wrong ! What, when you're getting into town? Not now it's not, it's still sixty odd. Oh well it is a Lada darling. The deal the deal i a Ha it won't go more than that! the zone starts the zone starts there, thirty. Yeah but perhaps it won't go more than that. So I'm now within I'm now within the limit ooh! So normally you are way past the limit? Cos you don't go as slow as this, even round here something like that Ann. Ann thirty five and he's speeding now. Going too fast!brake! You'll be old one day just think when you're a little old man sitting behind I am the wheel. I am old. Aye? I am old. What, thirty three ! Well one day you'll be about eighty, dear and you'll be the one sat there and someone saying, bloody hell look at that old codger behind the wheel ! Only I won't be around to live to see it. I dunno. Well when you're eighty odd I doubt it dear. Dunno. I think I'm pretty confident on that one when you're eighty I should be ninety five and the You never know I don't think I'd be going shopping anyway. You never know dear, you may be a very very fit ninety five. Oh Ann's gotta go and definitely have an operation, it could be before Christmas I'll start Oh. packing Friday on the way to mum Peter's mum she told them she's just in so much pain, she wants it doing so he's gonna get in, I said, it's poss that she'll be in six days and probably off a few weeks after when she gets home it's operation on her neck and shoulder they're going to release the nerve they reckon it's it's a she told them and do what they will with it. today running over cyclists out the way. you are in strange mood today, now you wanna run over a few cyclists, well there's an old lady and man there, I mean, why not pick them! That old lady? Ha. Do you know who's that? Shame about that bungalow next door but one, cos that'd be a nice bungalow but it's not very lovely they don't look after it very well. Oh dear, they can't get the stuff up the stairs dear! Got a wardrobe like ours and then oh no it isn't it's a combination one it's having to go up through the window let's hope they don't drop it! One with shelves in gentlemen's wardrobe. Mhm. Is it gonna get through the window, anyway? Not now the window's shut! Ha. Oh dear! I'd go and give him a hand but I do not like ladders Fun isn't it? Shall we take photographs? Get the camera out! Well the chap next door's finding it very amusing! I think everybody's finding finding it very amusing at the moment. That's not gonna go through that window anyway, is it? Well, it's gonna be a tight old squeeze. Why can't they take it through the back door and up the stair? Perhaps it er you don't know where the stairs and what kind of stairs it is but them kind of units usually come to bits ours does. Cos Rita assembled it for us. Certainly having fun. sat here watching him. Aye? Quite interesting. It wouldn't be if it fell, would it! Well then you'd laugh I should think, knowing you! Stuart ! Stuart! Hello. Do you think you could just open the door for me please ! Hold on to this Coming back, I've gotta I've gotta stand here so I can turn the camera on! Ha. go and get the camera! Ha. Aye? Ah well that's what we're all waiting for, we're waiting for you to drop it! They're watching Neighbours Come on, get up you lazy bugger ! What time of day do you think you call this! Shut your mouth!later. A man trying to get a wardrobe through the bedroom window over there. I know, what is going on! That's what we said. Aye? He must have a awful stairs! I'm watching these. Yeah. He's alright now He's just about got it Yeah they've got it through. Is it in? Have they got a Yeah just What were you shouting then? You know him? He's you're on I just candid camera! Go on said smile! drop it he shouted ! Smile , you're on candid camera! Have a laugh and joke with Dick. Dick? Have a laugh and joke with Dick. Dick? Who's Dick? He's the What the old man or the young The man? the elder gentleman. So you know him? Through his father, yes. How are you? Not too bad. Not hundred percent either. Want a cup of tea Jean? No. Have you rung the doctor? Tried to. Can't get through? No . We've only popped in to see whether you would like a lift into town now, before we go, rather than go into town and then come back just in case you want to Go into town for a li little while. Oh yeah I would. Thought you might want a lift. We don't want anything up there. Shopping but er I don't know, if you like it see what I mean? Have a little drinky-poos. No course not. I'll ha I'll do it I'll I'll made the shepherds pie. What with? A shepherd. A shepherd. I've got the carrots here for . No I've I've got some! I had some. Oh. I had some my dear. Come on. I found yeah there is some out there, they were alright so I I I boiled them up they're alright. I told you to leave it and I'll do it! Ah? No that's alright! You don't look well, you're not right, I can see, cos you don't look well. Aye? You don't look well. No I didn't feel al alright Ann. Ah ! I'm alright. You're not! You know, I don't feel myself anyway I can't I can't get through to anyway I'll try so it doesn't matter. While we're up town I shall go around there, you can drop me and I'll make an appointment there while we're there. Well it's getting up there. Who do you want,Do Doctor or Yeah anyway it if possible? doesn't matter I'll, I'll keep phoning. No might as well Don't worry I mean i to start with he Sh Sheila's coming over tomorrow, I can't go tomorrow really can I? Why not? Unless tomorrow night. She can go with you. And Ve Vera phoned this morning, Joe phoned this morning an all I didn't want them to go out, anyway I've made arrangements to go round to see Vera on Friday afternoon and they they went out to where was it? The she thought they were due a special run, cos you know they didn't. Oh dear! She said you'd be the I mean,and family when Wendy and that go and er she they had to with a la carte, oh it cost her a bomb! Ha oh dear! They do a dinner special inside there, I mean most places do roast Yeah on Sunday they do. Sunday lunch six quid you know that kind of thing oh they had to pay a la carte. We had Oh. No you watch it, we're going. It's alright, I'll see it later on, it's on again We're at half past five. We're popping in to estate agents. Erm it's a load of rubbish anyway! Absolute rubbish! We're going to estate agents but we thought Are you? we'd pop in see how you were and Yeah I'm alright See if you want anything up town. no I feel about a I I'll I've said to Ann, no I feel alright Ann but you know just I dunno I'm not quite myself am I? I don't feel No. very energetic and I should be alright now after been to sleep should do I'm alright I can't think of anything I wanna get I want up town anyway nothing think of anything Just that norm normally I don't , very nice, thank you very much. Washing powder or big bulky stuff that Can't carry it. do do walk back from town with, after all. No I did that the other day yo Struggled with it a little I want some mincemeat. Get some up town, if that's what you want. No. She doesn't really like his stuff. Mm if you don't mind. You want some mincemeat? Well yeah, no I've light bulbs I mean I could make you a list down but it doesn't matter I can get that tomorrow Ann I'll go down tomorrow you know, I'll be up in time. Just the thought Yes fair enough thanks very much. you did say that you'd like to come. Yeah I did. You ought to Rainbows or something got the car at least then Yeah. Is that what you want? Well I ca I can't think! I can't I can't really think I'll have to make a list out you know but er you know I got just think of anything that's, you know as I say I've got got some fo cat food will get some dry cat food yeah Oh I cou sta if I start thinking I'll I'll I'll Start thinking, got nothing lose,sta start Make a list, I'll get it for you. thinking we'll soon get them and save you carrying it tomorrow, then. Get and that and all's there anyway. Yeah cos I might I might not go up, you know, I see what Sheila says so Well that's it, if you don't feel like walking round the town tomorrow. Save you, save you carrying them. I'll tell you what I've I'm alright, but I feel a wee dizzy you know I feel as if I'm a bit no I'm alright Ann, I mean, feel a bit ba ah I mean I'm sorry I do have to buy a feel a bit of , I feel a bit dizzy you know as if I you know I need new glasses or something, you know that's how I feel. A change your mind Hey yeah, alright, yeah I am o I mean I'm not alright, I feel very dizzy, like I say I feel I feel a bit kind of heady you know but I will go and have a check up. I'll try again bloody lucky! You see I mean Lunch time is no good! no, you s I've been trying all morning. Don't start If you Ann will you, I'm not, I'm we will go in and do it I'll tell you what I'll tell you what I said erm ah ah ah ah she's talking to herself, but Ann will get on to you she'll think I haven't done it! I knew I'd be in trouble! Well we'll we'll We I'll call in We'll call in, that will be better than phoning at least you know whe you know you're gonna get there. And I'll make appointment. What for tomorrow, if possible? Whenever you wo I mean yo yo bothered when when they'll wi wi wi will be, you know. If you can't get it done tomorrow I'll try and get you a Doctor so she It's getting up there as well lo , you know I haven't got the strength and energy to walk there, I don't think. It's we'll make it in the morning, one morning and then we can come out at erm That a take you up. What are you this week? I'm on . Oh you're on lates this week. Two till one. Ah? Two till one. Two till one, yes I'll try again Ann. No, don't bother! Sit! Ha! We'll call in. We'll call in Well I mean it's not, it's not We'll call an emergency, is it? No but no but you want to see Well just say and just say that I had a bit of a ba an and I'd like a check over that's all just say that to them if you want alright? Wh where's the estate agents anyway, you're going to here? There's Its in the Do you get one of these Ann? Sometimes. Oh they're,t you remember you were on about it yesterday about the services they're all there. services are in aren't they? They're all there Let me see. whole lot. Just want to I just want a that will do me upstairs. Could you get i , get some of them? Do I get Well I mean I can get that up the end. We'll get it in town while we're there mother! Might as well get it in town. We're gonna be in Horse Fayre so Gonna be in erm Oh eh there's a place there, no there isn't, is there? The one that do the Gateways in Horse Fayre Aye? Got Gateways, we're going to Horse Fayre Do you er Oh you're going to you're going to Gateway. Going there anyway. We're in town, just in town doesn't matter where we go, does it? Well you can get ah bring my mince back. Budgie food do you want any budgie food? Millet? Sand sheets. No no got all that. What else? No get a couple of light bulbs. Yeah. I've got to get some , what sort of will you need? Aye? I I've had to bring yeah. you one, No that's alright get me a get me a pack, you know. Sixty. Yeah. You know. Sixty watt light bulbs Yeah I've got a hat. Fags? Yeah. Cheap fags or cheap Yeah you can, yeah I'll give you some money light bulbs and mincemeat, that cos that ain't very heavy to carry, innit? Oh,I think they're about two pound bag of that? Yeah yeah might as well I'll make the mincemeat , mince pies this and give you some Ann that'll save you doing them, won't it? When are you gonna make mince pies? Any time. Not today. Not today, why? Cos he'll eat them, he'll be stood there waiting for them coming out of the blooming oven! have some for tea. Mum don't feel like making mince pies, today. Well yo you'll have to er I'll make you some at home got some Don't forget mincemeat at home . You use that? Don't forget to get er cooking apples . What did he sa he say? Don't forget to get cooking apples, to put in the mincemeat. I've got some cooking apples out there Oh isn't he, I could hit him! Why doesn't he make th make your own bloody mincemeat then! Yeah that's cos I make the pa the pastry and you can Oh I'll don't know I pastry, I can't do that, I can do the rest but I can't make the pastry. Have you got in your hand did I say, dry cat food? Dry cat food, light bulbs and mincemeat, Aye? Want some ketchup? No, got some Salt? Tomato puree? What about flour and things, have you got enough flour to get To do the mince pies. nutmeg? Oh I haven't got that long to make them, yet am I? I know, but you shall have to bring it home won't you? You've got you've got, you might as well buy a big bag of flour and flour and then to carry home here. Go and have a look, see what you got. Oh alright Well you might as well, mightn't you, and it'll save you Yeah alright. carrying it. Yep, yep. At least you won't have to carry it, at least we've got the car and we can we can Yeah carry it between us, that's no problem is it? Yes, Cos if you're not feeling up to it, as well lard ? No it's the flour and things like that we said it's You can buy carry it home here. That's what I say, you buy three pound of flour and two pound of mincemeat in a jar. Yeah and cat food and Don't sound a lot of weight but No I know time you get it back here it is. I know we said make a list, but bloody hell, she'll filled four sides of foolscap here ! Cor! Hell! Come out No wonder you can't get a only half of them in there! Look at that tree. she's only one that's left she's got to do her own Oh. When he's caught them. Ooh! I'll strangle them! What about coffee? No I'm alright, I think. That one comes Special offer at the moment. What is? Special offer in Gateways. Where ! Special offer in Gateways. Well seen a jar of Maxwell House Large coffee. large jar of Maxwell House and three free packs of mini You get Hobnobs. You get Hobnobs free with them. There are now that might not cover it anyway that's because it will. What, twenty pound note, yeah that will cover it. Oh on at the moment Easy! Well if it isn't with with sauce Special offer on the big jar big jar of co , you wouldn't have a big jar of coffee. well why don't you just get what you think! I'm not too worried. Well I'm just thinking of you, love. You sure I've tried this? No well we'll do that as well, don't worry! Hang on, leave this er, I've already got it. Shepherds pie. But I didn't have a large pack, I didn't and if I make a cup of tea. Okay. Right so I bet I don't know the . Aye? They never go up the other side. Well that that That will be alright. if that hasn't got any That bit's Ann Ann can have that. Yeah. What about that? Yeah, but it wants to be, but that's not very big unless you But er, no fat in them Ann. Done more than enough. There's no fat i , there's just a teeny little drop of oil in the mince and I and I poured the fat off after I'd done it and I didn't really need butter in the potato so that He wouldn't eat them, cos he thought they were in the other potato. Yeah I know, but that's That's not much is it? that's as I say in the Not that much. Well only a little bit anyway so there! Okay. Ah so I made it this, as s s skinny as I could. Thanks again maybe I put , oy, oy Get on the basket! Do you wanna think? No I think we'd better move. You better stay and think. Mince pies you want us to get do you? Yeah mi mince pies mincemeat. Want the meat. No. Oh ! , I'm not thick skinned. I've got the flour, plain a I'm not am I? Mince pies, you were talking about mincemeat. Mr Kipling mince pies. Yeah, six for about two quid. Yeah that's it. If you have a look at them and you wouldn't de you'd eat them I was gonna say you'd eat them before what tea break? Yeah. He'd have them eaten by tea time ! You would. Definitely. I said we'll have a I think life is gonna change Ann. Mhm mm. Life is gonna change for my mother to say oh bu but I'm gonna see a lot more of you know. It's nearer. Yes be rather nice. Yeah course it will! I'm pleased but e I I can tell. Ha ha ha ha. Have a trip to Linda and Peter Yeah. and Alan Oh yeah , but I can see directly J it was Joe on the phone, you know, hello you bugger he says, you know and oh my! And he said, I've got the photographs that they took on Friday, I said, oh already? He says yeah I'll have to come round and see them Would have found out what Yeah. that photographer was for. Oh no I No? no I'll have to phone your mum that, won't I Yeah. cos he didn't know but you did he said and you have to ge , when yo can you come round is tha I said our you know, she's always sitting here with her feet up, drinking coffee and Tia Maria! That's the way! I said ju , I said to him then she came on the phone I was o ages on the phone and she said er I said you just take it as if it's a day off and no it's true, think It is. of it like that Anyway she said could we, I said well I can't come tomorrow cos Sheila's coming over they said Wednesday, now that was, no I know how about Thursday? Cos I gotta go and do the bar on Thursday night she said, alright come round for my tea. Mm mm mm. Have to go round and have my dinner wi , you know tea with her. Well is it Go round there in the afternoon and stop the you know And stop the remainder. Yeah so then I I'll ask her round here. Yeah. Yeah ya but as I think, as I say she's got a few things to do today,sh near the oven Ann. Yeah, lovely. Only that, that's it. That it's we only need Anything else? a little one. And where are you off to now? Town mother. I know! Estate agents Gateway, doctors. Erm What you gonna do with these with estate I knew something agents then? We're gonna have We're gonna buy the house mother! Gonna buy it. Going to buy it. Yes I know but I thought you had to wait till you get this quote from from a regular Yeah well we can carry on No I haven't it don't matter about that. Oh it doesn't matter No. about that oh how what do you mean it's what that what this place was all about. He'll sort that out. Oh alright. That's neither here nor there, they'll have to wait for it, it's up to them. Paid? That's right As long as we tell them we definitely want it. Is that what you're gonna do? Yep. Oh yeah. Big decision. Big decisions we talked about it and and that's what he wants to do, so that's what we're gonna do. Fair enough. Yeah. me, well I won't put this Oh yeah. I can't as soon as you warmed up the pie Browned and Stick it under the grill Yeah. to brown it off. Alright. We'll be back before Yeah we won't be that long we'll be back we'll be back for tea, afternoon tea. Alright so we'll we'll have erm well there's not many tea bags. Oh we better bring some of them then ! Get some tea bags and the mince Ann. We got that . Yeah I'll bring some. Alright, yeah? Yep. So we could come back, we'll have afternoon tea, we'll have er scotch pancakes and Don't because she's likely to start making you something! chocolate cake. Yeah I think I will. No you won't! You're not well enough, you just sit in a chair there's some cake in the tin if he wants a bit of cake! Ann, don't, as I say, don't make the doctor's appointment for Thursday night. Not for Thursday. No cos mum's going to Don't mean that well you know what I mean. She's going to Vera's. Yeah. We'll try and make it in the morning. And then we can take you up there then. Alright , fair enough. About dinner time and then we can and then Take you up and then go straight to work then you see. Then go to work or we Well yeah but I I I might go I'll minerals and the doctors Yeah. don't go ) I'm having my hair done Thursday morning. Yep. With Claire. Any day but Thursday. Yeah alright. Right? Okay? Yeah Don't look well does she? No, not quite right not right Have a check up for her. Yeah I definitely think she ought to have have a check up better to have a check you and it be nothing, than just keep hanging on saying it'll go away and it doesn't, it just gets worse. Mm. Yes. Mhm Corner solutions new bathroom shop there look. Yep. Looks nice dunnit? Look they're all just starting work darling. Mm Unlucky for them! Yep.,, and nice for us but on the other hand, tomorrow, it will be Oh shove that tomorrow! I got twenty four hours yet dear ! Yes. Lot of cars for a Monday! Oh plenty of room up here. Yes I hope so appeared to be . Well at least across that way anyway. Yeah. Up this end. In there, I could have gone in here I reckon I'll go round the corner don't matter does it? No, quite happy wherever They all squash the nearest one to the exit don't they? Shall I back in or shall I, yeah I'll back in, I'll be I shall be awkward I shall reverse in. Where's that car belong. Ferrari. Double five, double four R F four seven. Yeah. Not English. Not English French registration number How's that? Alright dear dear. That will do me fine darling. No it doesn't look very important does it? Er er no no, no no no very me thinks Lloyds Bank. Wrote to Lloyds Bank telling them, that if they try and keep Dear customer You're usually sir, madam and esquire on the bank things. I don't what Are you satisfied with their service? Yes that sort of thing. No Stuey, it's not very exciting by the sound of it. Well it could have been a cheque for a Yeah, could of been, yes. cheque for a few thousand or something, that would have but it weren't. I thought it was just a or something which I'd a owed stodge Look at that. god knows why you're at In here. When did you go and get that ? Last week it was Bless me. Is there anything you want me to do? No? Aye? What's the time Stuart? Please. It's eleven o'clock near enough. Right. Not quite, but Near enough That's ooh in the oven and the steak's done If it's late I can grill it then you have it when you want it. Aha. Minute for the sp before I get there. Come out here that one Where do you feel it wonderful . Didn't sleep very well did you? Too excited. No, things going through your head innit? Yeah. Yeah. That's how it is isn't it? Yeah. Yeah you're sort of thinking when my why got a card and then they tell you to look round, how much it's gonna cost you and I mean, you know,jus jus just you know is everything gonna work out, you know? Carpets down and then we got their cooker and the fridge and that and, well you know and that goes through your I know. they just go through your mind, don't they? What it's all gonna look like? Will it look nice? Yeah, will it go in? Will it fit and how tall is it, and how wide is it? Will we be able to get in before the day to check up on what colour we want things and yo , that sort of thing, you know you just you know? Yeah I know. As you know cos you have the same trouble. As if we were both tossing and turning and Yeah I know I know, funny one yesterday, you know but not to worry. Bound to be like that. Not to worry. Bound to be like, you know, a little bit Brian knows Brian knew everything more or less or arranged quite a few things anyway Did you? Brian knew. It's the Oh yeah definitely. Aren't you tired now? No, no jus just clearing the old eye out. When I did go to sleep, I went I don't remember but it was a long while. Yeah yeah I went, well eventually but like you say it was long wh it was a long while before I actually did get to sleep but got there eventually I'm been to solicitor today Annie. Got it out the way, just to warn him, there's no po point him getting all these letters about mortgages, you know they're who you are or well can't do that, can you? No got any more Annie? You got any more? No, there's a packet in my bag. Oh is there? A whole packet, yeah. That's alright then. My bag the weekend in case you were in trouble. That's fine then good should have enough for weekend until, until the weekend. I'll have them on Friday, if necessary but Thursday I get you a packet down. Oh yeah Pardon me! That should be alright Yeah we've got to go up town Thursday haven't we? Yes, I know We're going to be investigating some carpet shops while you're signing on the dotted line, won't need me in there now will you? Really. Really at all er apart from the mor moral support. Moral support well you need that other stuff first side. Hold me up while I sign, you know. No well I'll go with you, if you want. It isn't very long Shouldn't be in there long just a matter of signing all the things, checking all the details over, putting in what he hasn't filled in already. And I'm hoping that they get that letter, you seeing them weekend . Yes. And you're not working Saturday morning, instead of going to work late we can go a bit early and do a bit of shopping ourselves. Go to town next Thursday Before Monday. Thursday morning can't you? Don't know if I could do the electric one definitely Guess that's about whether the I'd like one of them, one of them and yeah but we don't know when it can be delivered, so we can't do it that early you can't say yeah but but er we'll let you know, well we can so it's there that's what we wish, they'd the bills go and we'll let you know when you can be the keys can be available for you to put it in. And so the Can't first . Mm, I know. That's the first job first one in then you get the carpet sorted out. Yeah cos it's much easier than dragging all At least at least you know how you know if he says you can have this one or this one yeah cos the choice between one or the other and he says well I can fit this one immediately, but, this one I've gotta order. They've gotta send for. I mean it might might just sway as to one way or the other if there's a bit of a well we like them both, but which one, you know? I don't wanna get carpets without you with me cos you have to live with them as well. I can have a look at them, now in the catalogue. Yeah but they won't be exactly the same in shops. No, true. Similar but not the same. No not the same, that's true. Mind you I suppose out of a catalogue it's at least you can feel them and see them all that. Oh and I'd rather Only on see the whole roll. I'd rather go in the shop and see it cos sometimes, especially if it's got a pattern on turn out to be better than the catalogue cos when it comes, it don't look the same, and then the same colour do you? Cos a reproduction's never perfect is it? No. In a photograph it's never true then you go in a shop and what you see is what you get. Definitely There's only a, there's only really what two carpets and these are carpet two main bit. for a bathroom, I mean neither were very good. Yeah but then again yeah but as I say i i if you if you want the same in the bathroom and the bedroom Well I don't and the same in the hall in the living room So two colours. you only got two carpets to sort out and a bit of lino rather than having a different one with this one and a different one for that one and then a different one for Yeah, I'll go and put that together those Alright. Alright dear. Hey Ann ! What? Did you read your stars today? No. You didn't? What's it say? Saturn your ruler is in exceptionally mood now so it is likely that you will have to put up with rather spartan conditions but you know how much is at stake for the future so you are happy to do without That was . How about that darling? Well, that's all that ready just popped it in the oven. Okay. Are you ready well. It's the only thing you wanted really. Yes. Mm. No I'm sure we are Yes we certainly are dear. All seems to have happened in such a rush. Well yeah but There's so much to think about. I know. But we had to really because No because we wouldn't have got that fifteen hundred pounds they hadn't agreed to do us a service. No. I wanna get it through. Well they said they'd wait, I mean fifteen hundred pound ain't he would pa put a deposit down, it's only five percent innit? Fifteen hundred pound if he was prepared to put a deposit down or something that would have been fifteen hundred quid. Yes. So we got it. He must have been looking for bathroom. Yeah. Otherwise he wouldn't have accepted without any Without any quibble. No. I thought it was worth pushing for the extra I mean when he said a thousand, I thought it would be Yeah. worth pushing for an extra five hundred, and did get it. Yeah well he said a thousand because he knew he could get he'd carpet that er er for a thousand. Yeah. That's why he mentioned that sort of figure if all you wanted was a or , a fridge, a cooker and some carpets, you could do that easy on a thousand. Yeah but now we got the extra five hundred and which I say is th is, makes up for the which is five percent of the purchase price we've got an extra to play with and get a bit more. Yeah. Not too bad. Gotta be careful when I'm cooking, I shall have to have the window open me I've got smoke alarms all over the place darling which is good in a flat. True, true. Mm but erm you get steam up in the cooking area and er Yeah. Ding a ling a ling a ling a ling a ling Right yeah. You think bloody hell, what the hell's going on here ! There is a smoke alarm in the airing cupboard in case that overheats and there's one In the hall ? No. I've only seen one, I haven't seen any more than one at There's supposed to be one in the airing cupboard. Seen that one. Case the airing cupboard overheats, but it says on the spec one airing cupboard when it, will have , hot water tank and smoke alarm. Oh! Ooh, ooh, ooh! In case you let it hot water tank starts playing up. Mhm It says it doesn't, but like I say,i in a way it usually starts . Oh yeah Fire services, recommend everybody to have it Mm. especially in an upstairs flat. Mm mm. It's a and plenty of warning to get out. Mhm. That's why he's had them put in cos the flat's more than house in in the only thing is I would say to you to let a heat from the kitchen and the Yeah. smoke and steam they do tend to keep going. Set them off. Ha ha and everybody starts running out the door and all you're doing is frying some breakfast or something! Burning the toast ! I'll be dissuaded buying a pussy cat altogether now won't I? Ha ha Yeah it is Once it starts that upstairs flat. It is a little bit er With a deadlock on the front door so he can't get in and out or anything. Oh yeah can't jump on the window to get in or anything. Mm, no they wanted to be in, but you not hear it no I think pussy cat is gonna be a no no about us you'll have to . Well it's certainly gonna be certainly won't let it . Looks like a It's gonna be a little bit tricky isn't it really, having a I think I would just about give up over that. It's a shame. , but I mean a downstairs one wouldn't be quite so bad Yeah. but those stairs won't like, I mean, I wouldn't like it that if it was just indoors forever would you, honestly? Not really. It's not fair on an animal even. It's not natural no. Cats or something. Not really is it? No I know and I don't fancy litter trays and things either. We might do one day or see Yeah but but not while we're there, I don't think it's must get another budgie sometime get Steven's budgie or something. Yeah a cat's a little bit out on dashing upstairs now innit really? It's a shame, but, there you go. Definitely is up here, it's Yeah. not fair on a animal as I say, he's bound to be trapped at the bloody door for hours before anybody come in and It ain't fair. No. Actually that's something we'll have to negotiate with our er opposite neighbour The stair carpets. stair carpet. Hadn't thought of that, well that's gonna be noisy anybody coming home late at night wooden stairs. Don't know who you got we'll have to wait and see who we get. Well fling that rug out the hall it'll be a start, bung it out on the landing for a start. Yeah yeah. So at least there's something up there at the doors to wipe your feet on and what not, but I'm not splashing out on stair carpet until somebody else has been Oh no. in as well. Yeah. Well there's something that will have to be will be needed eventually. I say a negotiation with next door neighbour or something like that. But you come home late at night when people are asleep Start banging up the stairs and and you lot, and stroll in after half past four an five o'clock in the morning, you know, you do. Yeah. If I don't get up till nine, it's a bit Yeah. It won't be very nice so we'll have to just manage as for as the stall light the hall lighting who is responsible for that? Cos the staircase has gotta be lit, I mean you can't get There is a light out there isn't there? I noticed that. I mean who who cares for the electricity? It's gotta be on someone's electric hasn't it? You can't, one flat's not gonna be responsible for having the hall lit up all night long which it will be and then length of time, unless it's on a timer switch. Mm that is something we will have to investigate. I know. di discuss with our I mean with Steven's flat the council are responsible for lighting hallways but we th they're not No, no that's right. They must be on some sort of a one of the meters or somebody's meter or somewhere. Yeah. That smells mm mm. Mm mm! Well that's gonna be alright I don't understand why every time You Give it another ten minutes, make sure the top the bacon Yeah. Nice. I've gotta nip upstairs. Er yes. Cos I wouldn't know I've done enough okay? Yep that's fine. I think we need to a empty the ashtray darling. Yeah. Or do we get a new car? I think so I said said to the bloke before Yeah let's have it. ! Bless me. Oh! got a cold, you better go home. On traffic lights? Yeah definitely poorly mother's sick for a fortnight. Well off we go, back to work. Won't use so much petrol from now on anyway, to get to work will we? Wouldn't be a lot of difference actually. Oh won't it? No By time you I mean it's not that far but by the time you get there the car won't have a chance to warm up thoroughly. Oh, use more petrol, I see. So you'd be on automatic choke for a bit of the way, most of the way anyway so Mm. a little bit, but not a great deal those gears most of the time as well the ones that we cruise in top gear I don't think that's really for me Oh. Not appreciably amateur. Ah sorry won't do it perhaps you turn li little bit there. A little bit perhaps I wouldn't of said it would have been No cos they'll still be popping out to the an will we not? I hope so. Yeah so do I don't wanna lose touch with them now. That would be stroll up to the Royal Standard. Yes, that's it some odd nights we was on our way home from work, it's going up to the even when we're on earlies and and weekends we can go there can't we? It's not that far there along the bypass there, it's not that far away is it? About that again, it's a similar distance I would say. That's what I mean, it's not It's as near to the as it would have been from there So it's not a lot of lot of bother the only thing is that i you gotta drive in town rather than drive on country lanes to get to the main roads little bit more dangerous as far as getting caught is concerned ha! It's we can always walk up the . Yep walk in the town if you're going Walk in the town. if you want a good drink, doesn't matter does it? Can you get through to town there's no through road that way, other end, but couldn't is there any short cuts you get into town that way? No? No, it's a longer way. Is it? Yeah. Ah I just wondered, I mean I don't know out that way. No erm might as well continue now half way round do a u-turn. That's going the wrong way dear. Yeah looks like it dunnit? Not sure of where he is mm mm. No the only w He's forgotten something. The only way to town is come up to way And come back again. towards Boy's School then Corporation Road and then in town. No I didn't know if you could walk if there's any short cuts if you wanted to walk into town. No no there's not. I jus just wondered, not knowing the area as well as you do wondered if there was a little You go down to the bottom of these roads there and . Do you end up sort of metal box end? No, there's metal boxes at each Well end. Yeah I know that's what I mean, if you get walking down there you'd come to all the factories I presume. If you come up er when you're at the Weasel Lane Mm mhm. instead of turning up towards the Royal Standard you turn the other way, that comes down past . Mm. Then you go right down to the bottom of Road you cos that's a dead end anyway,. I didn't know if there was lanes going off into town,whe or oh I don't know. Mhm. I shall have to be looking out for a second hand bike-y just for the occasional trip into town without getting Stuey out of bed so I be a bit more independent than just bothering you all time, if I just wanna pop anywhere. It isn't a great problem not really. No I know my but it it'll give me a little independence as well will it not? You got a shop at the top of the road ain't you? Yeah it's not far is it? Shops at the top there. It's not far from Rainbow really, to do you main shopping if you in a hurry, is it? No that's up that's just up the Yeah not far. The new Tescos won't be the other way will it? The other way, no. Yeah yeah that's what I mean it we're nearer to the both of them really. Always fascinates me that, a little person driving a big car. Mm a bit odd. It looks very odd, yes, when the heads hardly go above the the seat, you don't have is it a kid driving or a an adult or is anybody driving ! Or is it just trundling off on its own! Hello er I need a solicitor, to act for me er if that's possible please. It was mentioned that Mr might be able to help me. Yeah but if you'd like to come back though cos he's at lunch at the moment. Wonderful! Want to make an appointment to come back this afternoon? Working. Ah. So it has to be Thursday morning. I need to get Jo to come down and make an appointment What's the name please? . Erm there's a Mr in reception can you come down and make an appointment? Right. Alright then Hello did you say Thursday morning? Thursday morning about ten o'clock. Bit later if possible. Bit later than that. about eleven. About eleven yeah. We've gotta go and see the estate agents as well. What did you say? Mr yes eleven eleven o'clock eleven o'clock yeah that will be alright. Thursday morning Yeah that will be alright. That will be fine yes alright then yes eleven o'clock Thursday morning. Eleven o'clock Thursday morning. Okay. Bye bye. Thanks very much. Thank you. Bye now. Bye Have you? estate agent. Who says? Might do when we win the pools oh you're alright tomorrow. You Yeah. That's right. I've only got the one! Yes but mum, suppose you might have to. Don't wanna go to work yet, do you? No, its a bit, little bit early, where d'you wanna go? Go for a walk. Can't go up the King's Head, it's shut. No I wasn't really thinking about that. I think so. got some on his hair. it got darker what it used to. You know what it is Why? I know, but you don't wanna do that, you don't know what it, what silly innit? Yes. Oy! Oy!nice I know your type! I just want a clean staircase,! No we're not. Right we've made a decision I know we can but er Not being a driver darling, I don't know really much about such things never had to worry I've always found somewhere chain my bike to a lamp post or er ha That's quite often why I like, when I go down Norbet Street I don't like parking in Norbet Street itself cos it's only half an hour if you park down Royal Place it's It's a an hour It's an hour. Then I could have an hour, you see so it just gives you that extra breathing space if you Yeah, cos half an hour's not really long you get talking to somebody and That's it you go to you've the butchers or the bakers or Yeah. you have a couple of bets in the bookies that sort of thing. Half hour can soon be gone. Quite normal to be a little bit more than half an hour but el traffico wardens about an whoever takes your number sort of jus just after you parked then it is half an hour but sometimes it's not for No why that's why they come round. yeah but you don't know that do you? No. If you're in the bookies and you don't happen to see them. Well they're just doing their job otherwise people would park anywhere, all the time Oh dear! Take me home! I'd love to. I'm having a sudden attack attack of I don't know what but Morbidity. ah, what's that mean? How's that sound? That sounds wonderful, yeah look good on a signal. Morbidity. What's that? Well not feeling very happy morbid. Morbid. Mm yeah. Yeah, oh yeah I've definitely got attack of that. Workitus. Yeah, definitely Idolitus more like it ! Oh no you're not idle are you darling? No way are you idle. I don't know ! I could quite easily become. Now now . Yep. Where shall we park today Ann? Wherever you think is suitable. Dunno I know where I'd like to park Not here. Not here. Anywhere but here. Well park somewhere else then ! Hawthorn Cottages . That's it. Will do for now. Or draw a villa so we can have Just another explore. Mm be very very nice get more of an idea there erm than the whole of the shape of the kitchen and the shape of the bathroom and Yeah Villa That okay darling? Yeah as right as I'm gonna be I suppose. Yoh. Don't forget your biccies else you'll have no tea lie down. Here That's your little lot What they for? Oh Ted's having a bit of help. Ha Not in the full work where else would they rather be? Got John today anyway. just don't want. Yep Morning yep Wonder how his romance is going or not going. Why do you hope everything's alright? Stuart ! Ha that darling, was not called for! Tha oh you were walking is it? Mm. Oh so Ann's awful idea she's still having him on he's such a great giggle. Oh. Getting him all hot We'll and bothered we'll Just thinks it's a great giggle pretty cruel really I hardly ever do it. Ha. Mum. Can't really be forced Er I hope they don't want Bit of a smelly job up there I would have thought. What? Hello ugly! Oh hello ugly! Ah We can't help you improve your looks like. Ain't improved yours either! Who had a go at your haircut? Well we'll get him for you! Ain't left you with a lot, you didn't have a lot before ! I Steven ! What? I chucked an overall last night with forty pence in it. I'll see you What? And nobody That's a fix innit? I was gonna say I Yeah . Bet nobody in this world's gonna win back forty pence. Thank you. I'll have his, he'll only lose it. I Yep. What's it with? Thank you. I say. Thank you What shall I do? I don't know. Hi Annie, enjoyed your days off? Yep, lovely thank you. Good. Hi Jeanie. Yup. No he Oh dear! Maybe he didn't get the job, we got a new supervisor coming. No. Hi Ann had a good Hello. week? Yeah lovely. Great. I think it is. No, no one told me getting the push, just said we were getting a new one so I mean that must have meant that we that he hadn't Commiserations, but never mind Oh yeah. you went right away didn't you. You know if I got in a That's it. Mm. Like he's talking to Bernie Are we getting a lady or a man, do we know yet? No he didn't say. Man I think Hiya. I think. You might have something to do with it. Go and see what's left for me, I think I'll open the mail today. Why, what's the matter? last week, I I cleared up every day Every day. alright, you see I'd go in and count everything, do everything out. cos She had a water leak,the top, you know where she works. Yeah. While I was doing that all the drums I left last week for them just to do they hadn't done. Okay there was thirty two baskets brought them all out made them gone off. Dear! Yeah but I'm doing it and they clock in Last week she kept up to it all , I mean she done the lot and it was all weighed up and finished a before we went home, all done. Yeah but it's not good that I'm clocking, slugging my heart out. Mm. I mean, no, I'm not kidding when you drag them from where I am, down to the scales that's fucking hard work mate! Ann, did you have any draw tickets? I've got them You checked off Marion. You've checked them? I ain't checked them, I've been on holiday I've only come back today that's been drawn has it? Oh Val won ten pound on the monthly draw again, didn't she? Did she? Yeah. Oh I wonder where my tickets are now. I think they're in here. She said you were gonna I won I've been on holiday mate so I ain't Stuart's got some and I've got some L seven seven one to seven seven five. Alright. and L seven seven eight six to eighty on the blue. Seven seventy three. Yep I got that. In the white. That's mine. Ooh lovely! Erm bottle of whisky. Ohhh ! I like my tickets there seven seven three, so I'll have that ticket. Yep. I like the sound of that John. seven seven It would be that wouldn't it, bottle of bacardi for Ann would it. Number three. And then I've eight two one to eight two five and That's one then Ann, and you go and get that. Yep, I get that one at tea time. Now what else you got then? Eight se eight Eight eight two one to eight two five eight Have you eight a that's that's on the white is it? Yeah. I got white on Eight sixteen that's on Yeah. the white. You got that. Twenty nine, snowball. Ooh! That's ni I like th I like the snowball, so I'm alright. Oh that's alright Oh we're set up for Christmas now ! Ooh lovely. You can come along. Two prizes. Any more? That's smashing. Be nice Sh shake them up. That's lovely. Worth coming back for weren't it? Whoops! Say you're on a a green right up that green, eight hundreds. Eight hundred and twenty one to eight hundred and twenty five. more than thirty five. Make it a green John. That's it. Eight forty eight. No no, twenties. No? No. Oh well. You've only got two right? You got two. That's if, if you've got two I know. that's lovely , one off each strip, one for you and one for me, have to go and claim them at tea time. Wonderful, wonderful. You won't have three not bad, three whisky Yep. and a snowball then. Lovely! Right. Smashing! What you won Ann? Bottle of whisky and a snowball. Oh lovely Ann! He's quite happy to win the bottle of thing. yeah he's quite happy with the whisky, yeah. Favourite tipple, it is. won? Quite happy. Yeah. Don't know what the time is, I didn't even look when I clocked in. Anybody know the time? No it's about quarter to now. Oh, I'm not in hurry. You you've got two Yeah oh lovely Smashing! Yeah. Oh. Getting quite good on these raffles, dear. Yeah. Ha, ha ha. You're going good You think when I'm no obviously not. Hello. Hello. Good holiday? Lovely thank you didn't wanna come back! No I don't blame you. How's Shirley? Well she said her arm's still hurting her. Hello Tina! Hello. How's Tina? Nice holiday? Yeah smashing thank you and you, alright? Yeah. Still got a cold? No I can't clean the floors Saturday, up and I think she's scrubbing the floor with the brush done all the muscle. Might show her that I only looked at . Never used to so much hard work, you see Tina! Well we I weren't feeling very well. Yeah. Tina! I think it was a hangover Oh yeah! But it it had last all day but But how how poorly is is Wiggy? Poorly Is he will he give us a hand? Is he alright to Oh yeah he's alright Just we got we're on the move Your moving? and we need s we need Stuart gets a van he'll need someone to help him lift the washing machine and so on like Yeah he said he's alright and help him do that. he's he's alright but he just No I mean we wouldn't ask him if he's not well. No he just don't wanna come to work and that. Can you ask him how much that van he had you know he hired that van with He hired a van, how much it was. Yeah,yeah. Yeah well can you ask him how much it was? Yeah. Just like to know, just Yeah. a rough idea so we can we might I dunno whether we'll hire one, we might ask See if we can borrow one from somewhere. Cos that er cos that weren't the one he hired. No I know it weren't. He wanted a bigger didn't he? Yeah but tha tha Yeah I'll ask him . that'll be plenty big enough cos there's not that much we yo we need to move. No. Oh I thought you was buying that one so Ann told us. They wanted We'd like too much money. We'd like to. So Ann told us, so that's They wanted too much money Hello, hello, hello, hello Too much where you off to then? Somewhere just bought one there. Oh yeah oh. So And we might ask a depending on how much it's gonna be,ask, I dunno if Rogers still got his van or Or somebody, you know give them or young Simon. twenty quid or something, if they'll me theirs or It's only really the bed, the washing machine, the table and a couple of wardrobes. Cos I'll be having a new three piece Yeah. so I shan't take that and No. carpets we're Oh. having new and Yeah. I mean another thing Yeah I'll They wanted too much money for it, I mean we paid three thousand in rent and that was supposed to come off it, he still wanted Oh. the same a as what Ann had for theirs I mean we've had it for a year and paid all that rent. Yeah Oh! So we decided it weren't a good enough buy re he No. wouldn't knock he wouldn't come down at all and then the everywhere else were knock some off if the market's not very good at the moment. Yeah, oh so So we've got quite a bit off this one Yeah, oh so so we went u and you sort of round town. Yeah, it is it's near enough to town but out of it. Yeah yeah. Out the way. Well it's a, yeah you We been li that's what we've doing, house hunting. He's alright. Yesterday we made our mind up to have that one and we've set a sign some papers so Yeah. it's all going ahead they want us in as soon as possible that's how we got such a good Yeah thing but my I know. rent's up the sixteenth of December and there's Is it? no point in paying another months rent. No. Yeah we're going to stay with his mums's for a few days sh sh Yeah. she's quite happy. another two hundred fifty quid rent and I mean that'll go towards solicitors fees. That's it. or whatever. That's it innit? Yeah he's alright Physically. Yeah it's just a bit of pain. I mean I wouldn't ask him if he isn't very well. No he's he's a lot better not got . I say I don't think I can a manage to l help Stuart lift the washing machine Yes. and the big wardrobe it's No, yeah. I'll see how it goes anyway, but if you ask him Yeah. Yeah. how much it was, I'd like to find out. Yeah I'll fi I'll find out for you. So we've got an idea of how much it's gonna cost us to move. Say, if not Well I'll be moving to mums' for start anyway, put them in her garage, unless we get the keys ever so quick. Yeah. If they're gonna put it through as quick as they can for us, cos they want us They want us in. We've got this bargain through Anyway I'll see you later dear. cos we agreed to do it quick, we've got a Yeah bargain, you see. Well yeah. When they want a Near where you are and where where I am. Are you oh they are twenty five past five for me. Yep alright darling. See you later then Ann. Yeah.,. just wasn't a good enough Buy. buy. I'm staying I thought that when to bargain and now I suppose I can't sell anything that's the price really did he say for me and I thought I was going to go I though urgh! wanted se six thirty six with a ours is only thirty five. Mm, well Ann and she got it for thirty two and a half! That's what we offered. Oh but With the three thousand we've Yeah. paid, but he won't Except have it! He wouldn't so we said no. . Not when there's so many bargains about. at work, it's a tip! That'll do She wanted alright? Hello Barbara are you? No I'm having Ah no! She couldn't find the white one! Ain't got no to do Jean? basket well I was just saying and them chairs to do. Well you been doing with Ann have you? Some of them take it back It's not it's just the packet well it's nearly half eaten, he'd chewed it Have you turned it off? But she does look a bit silly though in it? Yeah. Ooh I know what I've got to do. What's that? Go and collect my prizes What did I do with the bloody tickets now? I lost them Oh I'll get them in a minute. claimed it well Betty's got a receipt anyway. Yeah I know, but they got a queue, I'll wait till later when they're not so busy. Done well for a change. I'd have, I've got some good prizes just lately get two in that, that's bloody lucky! Stuart was very happy he's gonna get a bottle of whisky it couldn't of been a bottle of bacardi for me could it! He said that'd be my winning ticket, I said, you haven't paid for them so how can it be! I don't know what the snowball is. D'you get them? Pardon? You got them, have you? The prizes, no I'll wait till No the till the queues off. tea, the tea The tea , yeah. Yeah I know I know it's got a lot of milk in and I did ask for it for you, but she still give me one like that. Oh I don't worry about that. All the same. Don't matter about that cheers . No I'm not. Ahhh! I haven't been up here many minutes quarter to twenty to five now. Ha! How you doing, alright? Yeah then. Yeah I know I'm . Gone now must drive up No he Oops!? No I better not. Not even just one? No not even one. I was no I'm not having one just seeing them Oh well! Ooh that's Go on have one, d'you wanna be famous? How old is that Graham Gooch cos he doesn't wear his No. pony tail. famous skin Who's the third one? Looks like it from here, looks like That's what I thought. Can't be him, if you'd have paid five quid a ticket. No it isn't him. It looks like,. Nobody minds paying Oy ey! Bill might. Cos he thinks he might win. Wanna see his opponent, he's an old bugger isn't he! One's Jilly's husband isn't it? Billy's husband! Jilly's husband, she's got one for herself and one for her husband. Don't work here does he? No and she get one in . A rotten Wish I could walk Doubt if be in there, cos he knows we're not I don't know what the snowball is, it might be a plastic snowball! If it is, I'll just get some and give one each the kids I think we've got enough sweeties. Well we don't eat them do we?really! they've had all and oh lunch he'll manage dinner can't swap them about Are you alright then? Mm. Done any they're all, as soon as you walk in, it's yours innit? Cos you ask her, or did you just start doing it? Tom, I just stood there so hanging around waiting to see what were going on and I had to . Back to the old job then. Every time you're in there you'll be doing that and next minute you're on so next fortnight. Why? You're on the divisors, strimmers and and we're on cutting our lot Well You're on strimmers and skimmers. Well I hope ! Why? Is somebody off? Dick and Wayne. Both of them? On holiday, one's leaving. Oh you will be then that's what I say to Kev bloody well ask! Bloody can! Don't struggle. Mark Mark Rolfy Rolfy Bet she made you struggle last week, during the week so as they wanna ask for somebody. Wouldn't mind it but The queues gone shall I go and get our prizes? Give us fag. Oh I heard that's what they had innit? You're favourite. Oh they're gonna approached him. They're locked in here , so she's gonna get them for me in a minute no worry Is a drink snowball, she thinks It might not be. What d'you win? She's lot a trouble Who? It's is a drink snowball, might as well put snowball don't mind do you? I asked. Will that do you, I'll settle for that You'll settle for that I bet it won't last long! I'll wrap it up for your Christmas present. Hey! got something. Fair enough, fair enough,Do you know all the This snowball is Bacardi It's a drink Ann. Yeah. Who? It's a drink. Thank you. What you going home? Yeah. Ha ha I paid for the tickets I'm gonna drink it. Do you like snowball? I'll drink it yeah you can have a snowball ! Er no I'll have I'll have the whisky I'll settle for that. You'll like that Yeah I like snowball, I don't mind that that'll do for my Christmas drink Is that half or a ? Might buy one. Better than rolling them out. won't go Rod Stewart you keep them talking but he seems nice not bad is it? No? It isn't now for the rest nobody has got them. No problem. The was nice. It's not that I need them no not I don't think. with lemonade, advocat and Lime. Lime, that's it. Lemonade as well, lemonade Yeah I might want that one you have Yeah other ones. Not that strong. Ay? It's more than eight percent. Is that proof? Not much is it? Ay? Is it? Oh steady, I'll have to go easy then! Yeah we know what you piss artists are like! Ah I don't mind Christmas pass them on. let mum have one No she'd Probably under the circumstances, probably better if she does! Sheila might. No well Sheila's got her a bottle of gin. Oh yeah. I bet that, that'll her Christmas actually. Good idea really. And the microwave she's got her cat book, a bottle of gin and a just buy her something else to go with it, out of that twenty five, spend the rest on mum that's what I was thinking. Money that'll do her we'll have a She's she's got a cat book. Spend the whole lot on mine couldn't you Ann? I wouldn't do that gave vouchers looks as though you can't be bothered she knows I'm getting that voucher of that I'll probably go and see something . Yeah and goodness knows she can't she? Well I'd rather I'd rather buy something and I no point buying her jumpers, I think she's got jumpers ha so Pair of trousers. Mum wants a pair of trousers for going out with, you know well she's got plenty but like I say it's but then you get I'll no it's not very personal to give somebody a voucher though is it? No I suppose not. I mean it's not as though you made a lot of effort, it won't take us long to nip over can always have look around that furniture place and our carpets I know that's one of these cos I got that . Do you want any draw tickets anybody,? Mind, I dunno dear cos I don't think I've got any money. More money for more tickets! I don't think I got any money. I'm I ain't got a lot, that's for certain In there I have got I had enough for tea break. I got some. you got enough I've got enough for yeah? It's alright, I got these. Don't know Yeah it's lady. Say I didn't right It's this er Oh we'll have a pound each then. There's a lot of bottles in that one prefer the Christmas one they're the most bottles, I won a bottle of sherry I didn't thing last year everybody wine Oh yeah. We should have left it there could of been more than this one. It's I dunno, how many pints of bloody wine! Three pints each. Yeah something like that, in a cardboard box with a tap on. Remember that thing as well. Fourteen ninety nine Out of that it's all bottles ey or most of them bottles. Yeah make a in here, just the two in it Won it in the raffle gonna have a drop in our tea, warm us up! Oh I bloody won a bottle wine and I could of won . John come to me and he said is that your number? You've won a bottle of whisky, Stuart said thank you. Oy! That's my ticket, not yours why are you saying thank you! I dunno just I said to him I'll wrap it up and give you it for your Christmas present! I paid for it didn't I, a pound in a draw. Yeah I know. Christmas present, a pound. ! Ha ha Oh! Want to it. Middle of the week. Not that bad, that's it. Not that bad. First he's never seen, surprises he's always . Yeah. Very true. especially on paper he Yeah. always such going on. I know, yeah. I'm not keen. No I've had Ooh! Ooh! That's close! Here Only me about me getting drunk, as if I would dear! When? Anytime But I remember bloody you coming in on a Sunday morning sometimes you, bloody can hardly the bed! Ha ha. What a bloody night was Stuart. Shut up! Thought you might know a and all,in about five minutes! But yeah, he told them! No I didn't. Yes you did. Shut up! You did. You probably did, not me. No I never swore everybody to secrecy but they all know it you cos you told them ! As you always still continue to tell them yes you do. If I want it spread around. That gives you your bit of character. Yeah can't grumble. Yeah, we don't row, luckily, ha ha. Yes we do. World war that bloody no good fool! Must be that ! Can you blame him I can't help What? be amazed . You replace the We ain't got a , just a mad man! He won't last for a ten now done the , done the Welcome Break, they done the Char Grill, now they're on the Tescos. Can't go any more, Ann. We got a thousand more do a Sainsburys and that's it. Yeah that's what Ann said. That won't last till ten I'd rather go and rack. never used to go on the Oh it's by the the van Teresa Yeah. and John a bloody at Tescos. If you ask me Why are they doing it, if it's not to do? I dunno, what can you do Ann! Ah yeah, that's my game. Did you get ? Got radio yes Why are they doing all that and there's nothing to do? Should of I got a somewhere. Well, you'll have nine bulbs and lights out got a thousand to do Ann's had What? Ann's had, Merv, John Teresa, Paul and Vi's all trussing done the rest the of my trussing, I've done the Char Grill, I've done Welcome Break, now they're on the Tesco. I've only got a thousand Sainsburys to do and we'll be all done by Nine o'clock. or not long after so why have they been doing that if there's nothing much to do? Why is John,and Ann and Paul and Teresa and all them been on that trussing line, and Merv. Probably trying to get ahead for that , one of those . Oh yeah, but I wonder if we're gonna all finished by nine o'clock and you'll have us all in your ha ha ha Don't forget Ann, in fact it's probably one of and in the back . Well we would, but we'll live. I've had a go but obviously not Not much else to do. not much about no. Well, with all the trussing the might carry on trussing and get that done. Or else we go in the afternoon and truss your pvc . I don't know mate,o I only know that that's take us Ann and Paul and Ann and John and all them all doing all the others so We really ought to be going to some to truss . There we go,dear. Ooh thank you. that in your tea. Is there enough in that cup? I'm going. See you at my mums. But Stuart when we've done the we're gonna book that. Aunty Mary. Alright? Okey dokey See you later dear. Yeah see you at the car. Oh dear, oh Lord! I better go and Well we certainly won't last till ten, not No. So we got a thousand letters to do that's all, well it might be over I don't know they're but isn't he? Sort of jewellery you see . Do they? for Tesco and Yeah quite casual erm Sainsburys. Ooh! They've all finished early, they've unless they came in late with the order or something, extras or something. I know five hundred and sixty was extra cos Stuart gave me two hundred short of a thousand. Mm, cos somebody hadn't up wrong then Where is she? Probably ain't calculated enough have they? No that's what I say if calculated wrong We're always out they always tend Mm to go over don't they? Yeah, little bit over. And they probably do the very small bags without . Yeah and that's . Bags that weren't that have come over there and need a recount Kerry! Hiya. How's it going? Not too bad. Are you on tea? Yep, just going . Ten ten fifty eight. I've go I've been in work some of these His next victims! Ask yourself They've gone on holiday. Which one? Yeah and we're supposed to do all of them you see put John, one of us start trussing early but we didn't need one Ann's got another team in the other room doing it. There still in there. I'll I'll be finished before long. Yeah? Well, about another hour. Have we got some more Birds Eye pies up to truss? Yeah they didn't do them! Actually they perhaps let us go back on them then Well tomorrow if you do that, I think perhaps that's the best kind of action, have a word with him and go down I mean You mean go back on them, cos we didn't finish them cos there was three pallets and we didn't even do two. There's only twelve with a last week weren't there? We didn't finish them cos they wanted to start trussing early It's what you had last week. and then Ann started that little line trussing you see, so we've done it between us but I've got a thousand to do and she's got about four d t Ann, even if they do some I bet you feel like a now,give them in when they can't truss them dunno. That I've only had We give them in when they came trussed with the though we had before. It's not very heavy Really to start a truss that's Well, with the two lines going yeah would have been about right then but see, John I don't suppose he realised Ann was gonna fetch all the people out of here there and everywhere and start that up. What did he do, did he say Well I pa Ann? No no so she started trussing, helping me. Yeah yeah but he wouldn't I suppose that's what John thought, we might not get them done, start early and get them finished That's good. He just said leave the Bird's Eye pies and start your trussing. That was gone seven o'clock when Yeah. By time we've cleared all that especially the All that pvc, Ann! are fourteen. and T D C when we come in, I mean they hadn't checked any goujons, they hadn't checked any of the fillets. Bag here Perhaps they'll get them. There was two baskets of bones. Fillet drums Jeanie and Hilary are doing that. Go back and get some more breadcrumbs Yeah tha yeah and I mean yeah We'll definitely be finished in about an hour one. Won't be till ten anyway. And getting all the Bird's Eye. Didn't we have a we're getting If we get in trainee. in the daytime I'm going home I'm not putting up with like that! They didn't want me! Never mind you got as far as you could,so at least you got that far Deirdre. I think I'll work nights only cos Yeah. Joe and I mean I come a long way and they said he told them I wanna pop in Friday morning before we go He was surprised He said well I weren't surprised, I said but er you know I want a name yeah well, he just said well I can't he can't fault me on anything. Yeah it's just nice to know if there is something wrong I know. isn't there? Any Well, hang on a minute I said if I've gotta problem time er, put it right. Yeah. if there's any weak stuff then I said Er yeah I'll work it out yeah you can and I can work on it. yeah that's it. Oh I went we were absolutely you know everybody claimed something You know what he's like well he told me when I claimed that sort of person , you took three of them didn't you? Who's that behind? He had Peter, he had that Peter who's Peter , David, didn't they and David Over Cook's side, he only lasted about three more weeks, I mean three weeks Glenys has been doing it ever since,han that Ian only last about three or four weeks, he was gone. That one he went didn't he? Yep. And that Peter. Yeah. He couldn't even do your He wouldn't d , he didn't wanna do it, did he? He took it back. He said he wanted office. Ha! You know, I remember him Yes. coming in cos John Yeah. said well you do what you did with him and show showing him how to do all the jobs, he said I don't want to learn them I've come to supervise, he said I don't wanna get mucky! Oh no! I couldn't believe my ears! I said Oh! So why John said would I show you how to truss nice, I don't wish to learn thank you! Is that what he said to you? Yeah he said I Oh I didn't know that! He said he'd come to supervise, not to do it! I've no no wish to learn it thank you. I said, well fair enough, I'll go to do something else! See John when he we as soon as John arrived he said to me will you take me he said, I don't wanna learn it proficiently but I want to know every job so I then took And then watch up and down every line. every line. You got to expect to be and i and when this Peter come he said well you know, just show him everything and like you did me and he said he didn't wanna know thank you. I didn't know he said that to him! Yeah he said Yeah. he said I come to sup be supervisor he said, I don't know, I don't wish to learn all that! Well can you supervise if you don't know what the hell's going on! I sa said to John That's what John said, he wanted lo I said last week so he good, a rough idea John , I hope you don't mind, I said gotta call he said you Mm. he said you should have asked Jim Yeah. because it was between you and him,. Well that's certainly my feeling I'm naturally disappointed but it I say, you did well and i er Mick said to me last night, he said to me you can never fit not used to it, but No point is there? No there's certainly That's it. I said I've failed! I said I just haven't got . That's it. You're not forgiven! No I'm listening to them,I'm doing a project. Aha. I'm taping all your conversations anyway Oh right. not in the factory I didn't li , I could of asked Tom. What in here? Everywhere I go. Oh I shall be quiet. It's all anonymous, you're not e e e nobody know who it is, it's for it's for a dictionary and they want new words that are commonly used and they don't want and all old words that never get used it'll be dropped in the next edition of the dictionary. I go I anything. No it's er I'm taping all my conversations I have with everybody for a week. What if people don't want you to? Oh yeah you you have to erase it but nobody's gonna sa , I mean to say, nobody knows who you are, what you've said anyway at all, do they? Well I don't know, if you're just gonna write down What? what you put on there and that I don't write anything, I send the tape in, they don't know who you are you're just a it's just a voice speaking nobody knows who you are or anything, they only know me nobody else. then! Why? Who's who's gonna know when they lis to compile a dictionary and what words you use who's gonna know who you are? Ha dunno speaking That's all well if you want it erased, I will I mean it's up to you entirely Well you won't have any trouble with Jeanie. but Ay, I I've I've said that to them I said well you might have, if I take to work you'll certainly hear some they said tha well if that's common usage words that's what it has to be and words that we never use at all that are in dictionaries and nobody ever uses them, they want to know common ordinary speech words that we use. Can't get more common than me! Ey I told them, I said you might hear some right a I was in the pub Saturday night, mind I did tell afterwards and he's ever such a nice bl fella he comes over door so he's killing himself laughing I I've got to tell you Ron, I've been taping he said I don't give a monkeys you tape what , he said let them all hear, they'll all be able to pass it round! It ain't, well it wasn't really disgusting but it Are you ready ? said he wouldn't. I said I got a good joke for you here,started to laugh and he said I ain't said it yet! Well I didn't tell him it he can wind it just erase it I mean I don't I said I'm alright love just to do all that, I've got twenty tapes ! Someone asked me whether , I thought it'd be a bit of fun But as I say nobody knows who you are, or what you've said or anything so it doesn't matter does it? It's the words they're interested in, not what you actually say and the words that yo people are using I've got now, so I don't even think of it, it's just there and I just talk normal that's the idea really and if anybody asks you what you're doing, then you tell them and it and you say, if you don't wish to be on it, well wipe it off but nobody knows who you are anyway so what difference does it make? Unless it got personal, I'd turn it off, I mean I mean when we went the estate agents and solicitors Be Alan, be Alan Whicker! sort of sit there putting what the solicitor said in your turn them off Or if anybody told me, I mean I wouldn't and talking in confidence about their private life or No. just turn them off, and that's it Just normal conversations the words that people use in common different areas of the country, with accents and th dialect and one thing and another it's for the Oxford English Dictionary the next edition. It is very old We've got to take that specification thing with us this morning, it will might help What time? Seven foot six by seven kitchen, plus units so you would get two metres it's not very much at all At least you'll know exactly rather than sort of saying well I know it was fourteen by nine foot something, I'm up to nine, ten which is exactly which she said They'd rather do that than having to piece twelve quarter then you've got to have join the bit then all the pattern that will be matching exactly er you'll use more. to cover er a metre you have to cos they can't do nothing with the bits, they give you all the bits Well yeah you do, you can't end up quite a lot of it Mm. suppose they have to match the pattern otherwise it does look quite silly which is what they've done in here, they haven't matched the patterns that wall there is it, it ain't joined Isn't joined. walk in, here, this is the end of the where they all went too and that piece is a piece cut off and it's not, it's gripped together underneath Yes, yes but it just knocked the cotton sticks out, just put the piece down, there's no way I'm gonna do this, so it doesn't matter does it? No. That's definitely, this is the raw bit and that's a bit of the end of the cut-off, probably have the landing or something can use the rest of it through Oh I say this is nine foot nine just gonna get a bit for it,tie a little bit on edge and that's it. Bedroom has got a, it's in an alcove so you'll have that piece where it's bottom of the stairs or wherever, I mean, the, stand on slip mats you're gonna get that because of the, the airing cupboard is part of the hall, part of the bedroom and nothing you can do about that one, and on the wall it's just gonna be one length of each room,cut off,perfect,, actually they don't normally do that, they usually just the measurement, cos I not, never understood why they don't have measurements there all standard , you guarantee use the one strip of another roll The new houses are pretty standard why don't they convert them, you know , you guarantee if you use six rolls of wa wallpaper you'll need one to seven, something silly like that Way it always goes, an extra roll need to buy Need to buy, you have done. That's a lo To do underneath the window or on top of the door or some silly thing like that a lot, a lot of places where you can buy eight rolls and only use seven eight back and er Certainly when we get settled in after Christmas that should be and I'll shall say about six rolls but I'll shall say six rolls and just the every time I get one roll of wallpaper up and you you'll think oh I'll do the rest tomorrow just a bit more, then you get one more looks alright there,the other wall and er, I'm sat, I've been up all night doing this shall do one more then I'll go a bed , I get from the wife bloody hell mother what time did you go to bed, about an hour ago , couldn't leave it wallpaper. No. Never attempted? No. Same with me paster I'll be your I can be your labourer. Yeah paster. Wallpaper, wallpaper . I'm not an expert, non professional but I, it goes up. Vera turned up for a cup of coffee dinner time and ended up staying there rest of the afternoon dinner with us, oh no come on in, give us it,where you sitting, off she went You start By the end, by the end of the afternoon she'd done it all. You start at the right hand side of the window Well I know about that That a way. I know that. You don't start You start here Is there any joint and seems light, if the light were on the light catches them and you can see all the No it's not sit and watch somebody else do it it won't hurt her Mm. Just the actual joy of starting and, and seeing it transformed while Yeah you're doing it and all imagine that, somebody else, I didn't , it will be that's not quite straight or erm or do apply , no I won't be doing that folks there , that's it the Right,That's a Don't treat me like a naughty schoolgirl. Naughty girls, naughty schoolgirls get their botty smacked. Ooh, I might like having me botty smacked. What they putting in there next? got a bit there There's a puddy tat, hello puddy tat certainly don't think where we going is suitable for a puddy tat,hours and hours on end and not being allowed to go outside and even when we're there, I say, we can't be running up and down them bloody staircases letting cats out, I couldn't, I couldn't bear the thought of it never going out. It's unnatural really is it? Yeah, they like to roam about and explore and and, and er, I'm not sure I wanna cope with litter trays for ever, would you? No. Would rather a cat be out cos it wants to be out. Yeah. Does as it wants to do when it goes outside rather than inside. I mean when it's warm though,litter stuck in the erm, erm it maybe greeting you and . Even a modern cat litter nowadays Oh yeah? unpleasant. oh yeah? remember ours, it would not be flat smells of cat but not only that if it weed on me carpet as much as I love it I might get a , er I think it would be get your cat out of here . Your cat of my Exactly ,my cat, it mine when it was good and yours when it was being horrible . Not on , not only do they wee on the carpet but they also have a tendency to try and avoid, cover it up Cover it up, yes, pull all the threads. Pull all the pull all the bits. , I'm very I like, if they haven't got a scratching board, scratch what's in the Yeah. no I don't think we'll have a pussy cat for the foreseeable future, not shut up, I say it's different if they can go out, sharpen their claws on a bit of bark or , unless I end up with a goldfish A goldfish, get hungry, make a few chips yes darling. What's for lunch dear, well, ready fish Yeah oh I'd have to call it James ,,dream occasionally innit strange?, help is one goldfish is male or female, how's one know whether to call it James or Jessica or I haven't the faintest idea how you sex a fish. Neither have I. Oh, one of the mysteries of life, how do you sex a goldfish? Pretty trees Yeah, that's why a, that's all it is you see,, there's no mention of any advice you or whatever, she said she , just don't see any point of anybody else buying cheaper , somebody hit the the thing in the middle of the island there, smashed all the glass one of these things there's all got smashed , Summer again. Are they? Yeah, Oh mm. Bulbs to Yeah, no such a, I mean you what was the point of that now we've got one? That's it You can buy a car for Yes, that's it, that's a new one , or a relatively new one. Got Yep. Perhaps I mean they might not be from this, so True, very true we have erm I don't know,no. . That's it that's Oh well. Never mind, have a look and I might have a there we are how's that, alright dear?, you have a look yeah coming to the empty that was Yes. David Yes, same type of thing as mm, mm Don't like that , I don't think he could , that's three hundred and ninety nine oh . Nice isn't it?very good, it's quite nice isn't it? I'm more than happy with something like that. Do we second hand suite second hand suite, the whole lot. It's that We go for a second hand suite as well or a microwave. Go for a microwave or do you just go for We've got nine hundred pounds approximately, after the cooker and the fridge. Five hundred pound for carpets, leaves four hundred pound, two hundred pound for suite and the microwave say, there's so many combinations that's the thing isn't it? Yep. There are so many combinations of what to have, what to get, what we can't get, what we need really I think is, what we need is obviously going to be priority isn't it? Yes. Carpets, cooker fridge Yeah. they're the definite needs and erm That was eleven hundred pounds approximately, you've got four hundred pound really to play with,approximately four hundred pound left over, say five hundred pound, six hundred for electrical goods. Pardon? Seven hundred did you say, oh no two seventy nine and three twenty something weren't it? Yep. Er three, two About six hundred. Six hundred, yeah. Six hundred for them two and five hundred for carpets. Eleven, you've got four hundred pound, you got so it's a good second hand one or a cheapy no, well it would be a cheapy I told him most of them around about seven hundred and ninety nine Decent A reasonable one, I mean you can go up to two thousand for a good one, but a reasonable one you wouldn't get nowadays under seven hundred and ninety nine I think you'd be better off with a with a new cooker and fridge Oh yeah, definitely I think , you can go second hand rather than go second, but, er, you know er, at least if you go in there at least you've got got got a guarantee for six months yeah, yeah, but but, at least you know you're going to get a decent amount of Two or three years on the others. As with a new one you'll probably gonna get four, five, six, seven,eigh I don't like, just, I couldn't be like Deirdre and , put me overall on and in go in without collecting me thoughts getting myself together Deirdre never arrives till about three minutes before she gets in the door, she's putting her overall on saying come on ladies, its time were , but she's putting her overall and on , and they all sit there looking at her and so they all sit there looking at her and saying bloody hell she ain't got her own hat on , we've been here quarter of an hour and she walks in the door, takes her coat off and says come on ladies you're suppose to be off your hind by two o'clock , leaving here at two She's right. I know she's right, but she should, set an example in some ways , mm people are so used to her now they just look at her and carry on talking silly old bugger, you know,, shut up Deirdre I'm don't want to do that, shouldn't be, cos there wasn't much to put on, although they left, left quite a bit off yesterday, they cut short, there was five hundred breast portion short and two hundred oyster eggs, so Deirdre informed me but they injected six hundred too many and four hundred eggs to Tescos all quite ridiculous. Pardon? Put them off today's I know but it's just,waste of time in it?they'd been better spent to finish the order that they did have, and inject that, ha oh be fair to do that to use though, no doubt they will, pick out all the things we didn't do right bloody should done too many of this or not enough of that Ah, yeah. difference wasn't worth putting that down. Not really, not this time of the day is it? Mm, it would bounce up and down like a yo-yo Can't I do nothing? Lovely, thank you darling, oh we didn't get much further on there, what we started with this morning, no so Erm, I've left my bags at mums. Oh dear. . No,working till twelve. Oh, it Yeah Yeah Oh wow. No . Seems like why you like you like to Thank you darling Yeah alright, I'm off next week That's that one, yeah,, yeah, oh and, Ann, Ann that's Yeah, John's already decided , that's alright. Yeah yeah that's lovely, we did put in for some in February, we have this one in the we haven't got a cover that one. We'll have to have one less Oh, sorry Women on there have to come off oh no, hang on, no There's four days on now. We'll have the Wednesday off when you cross Yeah they haven't actually February, she would of done, but be the same, decide on the Monday, so you'll have to cancel the Wednesday then. cancel the Wednesday, cancel Wednesday, yeah, that will keep the days and Thanks dear, Yeah, can you put me down, the name down for the , alright, okay. Right, thank you very much John Thank you, bye now order my Hello Hello what the , have to oh yes Yeah, must be used to the must do it sometime Well at least you're not a Er, were moving and one thing and another, there's so much to do. Oh is there? Anyway I said to I said I left today, I . That's the trouble when your at work and you got all Yeah it must be You gotta be at work. Yeah do they? Oh I No, no, I come in the car, I was coming on the bus when I had this bloke next door doing some work like, I used to go out with him years ago, so he come in and had a cup of tea, I said, come in about half past eleven went home at one, he come Hello girls Hello Stuart, are you alright? Mm. Oh. Better he's got, he said he'd be better at ten o'clock. Yes, I'll be better at ten o'clock , I shall be better at ten o'clock by Friday I dunno who shall be the worst Yes. for the third of January, then he goes back tenth cos his Bloody hell, hello Dawn. Hello. Good morning. Yeah I had somebody come round and stuck their bloody No Yeah, I did, so I have Right then dear. Yeah right as I'm gonna be for the time That's it in it? Hello Mr and Mrs Jean How are you? Very well thank you. Good, good, good. is it in here? Yes, Key, give us key. is she? No, but getting Might as well sit down for a few minutes mightn't we? Yeah, we got five minutes. . . . They never got here, I was all morning. but when you come and sit here at night Have you not been well Jo? Life's not Was he, oh er, what was that did you eat something what you Dunno, Oh. Yeah, I'm going in as well darling. Fine. . Ta, see you later on. See you later on yeah, about er about the usual time Yeah, usual time. time. Hi ya Hello Sound cheesed off, what's the matter? I'm cheesed off . So am I, fed up, bored. go back and go back and take when you go back. Fed up, cheesed off Yes Oh yes,join you all I've got I hope . Yeah. Why you cheesed off This is strong That's the way I feel, am I not allowed? What, no, I thought there might be a reason yeah but, I'm on the P D C and it's it's going and the phones six baskets about twenty baskets to be checked minutes Should of been done any way. Should of been done hadn't it? Yeah. It only , pushing out the lasts,line, just emptied the line and he walked in. She doesn't stoop in and They didn't do any, they did one thou oh two thousand pounds each and one thousand of that was sovereign Me and reckon that up in the canteen. They just use to rest of it, yesterday, didn't I, last night. All Dave's flavours were done apart from the odd few extras, No, I done that. they had, all they was the roast roast its all the frozen people's fault I can't spoonful. See, I don't bother. and roast puddings, roast tikka twice and a few extras. many people. so Well we couldn't so I don't know. it was a big pub , oh yes . I dunno what's up I just, that closing date's tomorrow innit? Mm. last week when we were on holiday. Think up a good think for sponsor. It seems a funny day though. Yeah well she's got to start tomorrow try. Whatever It 's up Sounds like . No, I've never heard that before, put your name down for your Christmas lunch I would of thought it had been easier to erm to put down the name of Mm. oh there what you want what you want,Could be a , now. What was it last year was on Thursday? have it tea time Oh, we, probably have it about five o'clock everybody, and Lyn and Michael come in early and have theirs as well. . Think later, be about five o'clock or quarter to five, or something like that depends when it's on,have to come in early if they want to have it with us. We'll try one to one. Of course got to cook so,depending on it will be about five o'clock so that they can get washed up. Probably. I'll tell her not to cook. Yeah, well Any thing pastry you know,. I cook for Stuart and I don't eat it. I don't, I cook for Stuart, but I don't eat it. So I mean, I still cook for Stuart, he still eats, even though I don't have it,. I couldn't. No, no, not when it comes to pastry, a nice bit of apple pie and Oh yeah , yeah. Mind you, when we were over What they gonna, what they gonna by the pound? No, you wanna pound. What they doing another sponsored slim are they? I wished I'd of done when I lost all my weight And we're gonna do it, for, for a when I lost my six and a half stone mammogram thing for the hospital. What are they doing, having another one, what Wisbech or the one at No, no, we just bought it up Yes, I think it Well it will be the local hospital that does all that They've got one at cos I mean I went and had one so there must be one, another one No, it's I think, unless it for, it must be for Wisbech It might be for Wisbech one, they've gone to , cos erm, I mean they've got two at Lynn, so it must be Wisbech So its probably Ah Just make sure you squeeze their knickers off, make them would you? I probably come on with, on, on, on you with it after Christmas as well cos I'll probably put some back on Yeah, we'll do it for three months over Christmas. three months It will take me bleeding years to reach my goal Why I've been , it will be ten months that's all Rita, ten month it took me to lose six stone, you don't want to lose that much do you? Yeah, Tina can go on it. What? You're going on a sponsored slim Sponsored slim after Christmas, er and Val and me No, going on holiday It's for a good she's going on holiday in January You'll have all them warriors chasing you round the jungle , they have their little blow pipes Yeah, ooh, all them dingle dangles yeah they're not, they're not little either, I saw a film and it was hanging past his knee caps good to use them for swinging in the trees. That's in it. No, that's what everybody thought blush then. Yeah Trade you in for a couple of camels, he'd come home with a couple of camels Yeah. I She'll, she'll think that's an elephant's trunk in her pocket and she won't realize . you ain't blushed like that for a long while have you?, yeah, that will be a holiday, watch your camp bed don't fold up love I say, I'd , I'm only telling you what to expect you know, when you go on holiday Been there Eh? Mm, you watched I've been there, yeah. You wanna watch them old mowmows yeah, they come there with their little carving knives, yeah, cut all the dangly bits off that, that's right though innit , shut up you tell her. . shut up. It's impossible. They get them little knives You be Yeah, I've had an away day today , I never said a gay day, I said an away day . You finished eating? Why, what you gonna buy me? What? You done? why what you speak to me, what were you saying? That erm Well for You should of said well alright, I'll take them away then took them right away then , Take a bit of interest, what's going on Somebody Make the most of it. Just let her do it. Yeah, I've got another weight watcher's order form,four, . look as though you book it then Yeah, you don't want to don't miss out on any thing do you? She's gotta eat. Got to eat Chips, fish Yeah and you feel like a bleeding rabbit. Yeah, you get bored. Especially when you have to have a bit of salad cream on Well I don't feel Fair enough, I think I work She's investing it for her . Yeah, I What now? , You, getting all put some back in , I need some by six o'clock, I said comes at six thirty, you can't have it we're bloody cooking , any way I though you done John's said his got because come on. John's told me to tell you to go and get it, right I said I said Richard coming, for four hundred pound I you're not coming for it so that's it oh you think it was pub machine or . well if it isn't, well what can you do? I can't make the machine go any bloody quicker, well I can, but I so what's the point in that come and have a look at it and then they said come back and do it when you on the skin, you know the skin bring it forward well it don't go back, it just gets all tangled. He come in Saturday, not that he , we've heard all that before, said that you can get give it a good wash and squeeze it back , that I can't put one on now, give me a ring when you're done , so we've been doing a few need a good wash Monday's the twenty third, Sunday's the twenty second nothing to do with, he stood there, he said, it's not working, and he paid the bloody bill I put them on right. Same old story getting it underneath cos they're going higher up and underneath last week, we ought to go Oh yeah, yeah. Didn't tell us about that one did you? Everyone starts on me what's happen with the . They haven't mentioned it this year, have they? No, Have they? Yeah, Yeah, but last year Oh we were waiting and waiting in the end we got in the car. Oh we're being I was gonna drive anyway We'll be at mum's anyway, so I take I take, only occasionally I go mad and let ripe and have quite a few, other times I just be on an orange juice and lemonade but the other, the other do I really made Pardon? You've been to see him haven't you? How is he? Be alright? Well the two er three days , I've asked Dave Mm, mm. Did he know you were going? Yeah. Dates from the last day of , not too bad. At least you keep in touch, some of them get shoved away and they never, nobody don't bother with them do they? the worst yeah Yeah and its cost us forty two ticket up Pardon? on what tickets? Well, like I say if I want to bring my family, I've got to pay five pound which Five pound, yeah yeah. Go and get nine tickets, or I start right up all the bloody year round for that. Well, that's what I said. Yeah, we pay all the year round for that don't we and that's all we bloody get out of it. I mean it's When my Helen comes,she's gotta pay No, you have Yeah, I already told that . Why it is, it's very, very, very wrong, say we pay all year round for that, I've paid for a year for my ticket Nobody asked for my clock number when mine and Stuart's, just gave me me ticket. You've just got to give, you know, we've put by and we said . Nobody put, nobody asked for mine or Stuart's it's just When, when I went to get my tickets she said I had eight Evening he's earned a pint of beer I think tonight. What? Anyone would think we were what? Yeah. I went in the today they like mad animals running round without a head on God knows what's it going to be like in a couple of weeks time. This time in three weeks it will all be over, we'll all be sat there thinking well was it bloody worth it, all that hard work money and rushing about, is it worth it? I like Christmas. Well I like Christmas, but it's just getting one mad money, money, money innit? Well yeah. More than it's ever been Trouble is there ain't money about and , what can you buy little Dean nothing, can you? It gets worse every year, but this year seems worse than ever. Bloody hell I just sit down and it calls again. Oh you can't sit down, do you want another one? No, no, I'll have a very, very, very, very weak shandy. . . I'll have a, a shandy. A what shandy love A bitter shandy . Pint? Oh sorry. I bet he would and all. Same again please , could I have a Babycham please? And a half of bitter shandy Come on Neville. Yeah, I might Oh the he should of done. We've got company for Christmas, are you on your own this year? Oh, I always have erm now the kids are grown up, and my mum and dad and my brother, but we will be two short this year. Never mind. I shall You will see that, that the I'll have the other company. yeah Ah, squeeze over. Ooh Oh just fell in Ooh Have you got any company this year? We're going away this year, I'm not, he said that won't be strange not cooking Christmas dinner. Won't you feel funny not cooking it? The first time in twenty five years, we've cooked Christmas for a blooming great load of people So you're It will be nice in a way, but, be strange Yeah , yeah, cos it, it's the not smells of the cooking and sitting down bloated out innit? That is it. Well I shall still be sitting down bloated out no doubt, but er, it's just not doing it, actually doing it. Up at Do cook the turkey and baste up at dawn to get the turkey in Although I enjoy boxing day cos I have all the family there Mm. but, We're going to mum's and having all her company aren't we? Ah Lynda not Here are Lynda. Thank you Neville, you going to hotel are you? No, we're going to his mum's Oh lovely. I've got all his family some of them I've never met. Oh so that will be nice then won't it? Yeah, that will be a nice change. Be nice to be waited on. Yeah, it should I go Yes I go every Sunday though She's got to do the work. Blimey. I don't mind, if you leave me in the kitchen I'd be quite happy, I'd do it all. Any women is ain't they mate? Quite happy for you to stay out the way while I do it. All go to the pub and I stop there Yeah. them all in. Yes, as long as you'd left me to Yeah, I don't m , my dad will do that, my dad cooks you see, mum don't cook at all, dad normally does, and when dad comes to mine he wants to get in my kitchen So he is so I have to say go on father bugger off he's like that aren't you dear, always has to come and have a stir and there's licks in the, look in the pan Yeah, dad would say, not enough garlic in there, that could do with a bit of cauli-head in there and I will you Mm, mm. Blimey Yeah, you at the pub At last. Well, we've got to go down . there wouldn't, you would of Oh you coming as well are you? , wouldn't she? If you don't go I'm not going Christmas gone go and see Helen otherwise I would be They are, set him up again. mm, mm, I don't want a bit of Oh apparently you go dad's Christmas Eve Oh am I? Oh well she doesn't know about him,an invitation, but she said you will still won't you, you can't do much if you just turn up , I don't know though,their Christmas all freezing and bruises and it's entirely up to you, but apparently what you want to do, make it an evening then? Oh just with An hour you know what me mum is she's got to have a little Mm, mm, have a little dig yes. dad, dad didn't say nothing about all evening just pop in for an hour , but I couldn't see Stuey and me sitting there disturb him,scared Oh. Christmas Eve Yeah, probably. , it's only an hour he might an hour but after that he'll be thinking bloody hell the pubs will be open wouldn't you? No, not exactly you would, huh, you'd be looking at the clock , I know you well enough for that now dear denied. No, I'm not gonna deny it. Won't deny it dear, I won't deny it at all. It's entirely up to you, if you wish to go on your own, I would not resume , yeah, presents on him without an invitation Oh I see, yeah, have to see what he says Mum's Mm, mm, see what she says our Sheila and, see what . Comments I had earlier on in our relationship hadn't, he didn't seem very keen did he? Thought you were a bloody idiot must be mad. Don't I get old enough and did me best perhaps he might change his mind Mm, maybe. a blue suit on or something and Yellow suit? yeah, something really, no don't go overboard Do come in . Somebody's been very busy looks nice doesn't it? I like to see them all up but doesn't it look bare when you take them down Yeah You gonna decorate when I take them down? Mm, we've not got any option, we're moving anyway apart from that there's erm, we're not gonna be there so it doesn't seem much point really does it? Not really no, a lot of work for nothing. Yeah. Ah, that come out, that nearly You ought to be careful cos of your clothes Yeah, I I thought I'd give it You got a new place to move to eh? Yes,needs doing. There you are dear. What you say? What you gonna I wouldn't want to say that, I'm well all yeah. Mm. huh, won't she though Mm. I thought she was talking about you, I mean she never mentioned no names when she came rushing up to the top just the same, don't know what's the matter with Wynne today,the edge there Lynda. nothing when I want it and oh, It's childish don't know what's the matter with Wynne today, she's been quite,you know how she does and What amazes me though he just don't seemed to of . you know. Yeah, I mean, but he never gets a panic or not and he just lets her get on with it and he just stands there. Some men are right arseholes aren't they, eh? They got to That's it I've come out without me purse, cos I didn't know That's a good word to go out isn't it, without your purse, yeah. You emptied the fruit machine Brenda? Yep, twice Twice Well we won't bother then . Yeah I put a couple of quid in and I got four pounds something cos er went and bought some fags out of the machine and then I got the er the brown note flashing, from ten P so I stopped I have stopped. Probably in a good mood you gotta carry on No, it feels like it feels like, I went up the club last week and there, cos er, we didn't come in here and er You didn't finish the I put two pounds in the machine up there and I got fifteen pounds, I got the three bars, er, not the three, two bars and some nudges and I nudged it Yeah down and it hit the two bars not the three bars, cos you get one, two and three bars don't you?that's five, ten, fifteen pounds oh, something like that and you get three, three bars and that's a hundred pound, I got fifteen pound didn't I, don't you start. I leave you to score I'm just gonna sit down here, I'm a little bit warm Can you score? No, I'm You scored for us didn't you? don't matter , just gonna sit quietly Haven't got a lot to score anyway have you? Pardon? Ain't got a lot to score anyway have you? No Oh what a shame Lost all the scores,. About five hundred to mum for That's, that's the time to do it That's the right time to do it Lynda, to win the game Move that. Sharp innit? Creep Oh dear, She not prepared Have you been in my handbag? I'm gonna put a mousetrap in there as well as my er kitchen drawer. Oh, she's a bugger for going in my drawer after Polos . I'm gonna coat them, I'm gonna boil there some Exlax and coat them with Exlax oh Got trouble with constipation No I did know, or else I stop you, I'll coat one with some bitter alie see how you like that, or allen whatever it's called. Put a on it. Yes, now that, oh that was me. Mind you don't slip up Yeah Go on in there I've got the there. No you didn't. I know I didn't, but it's nice to say innit? Yep, gonna need it Mm. Need to sort a gentleman out about a van, you asked anybody? Oh, here we What he say? Go on hock the middle one then. I think mum's need drawers as well,dr drawers out of a chest of drawers make Eh do that, get quite a bit in a drawer if you , good boxes cos they're solid you see. sign of woollies and things like that can go in there woollies and other thinkable clothes Yeah. Won't take me long once I get going its just the getting going bit busy day tomorrow haven't we? anybody done that wouldn't they? Once you know you've got your mortgage then its contract signing and , then we go I do my then you can nip round to see what you come up with. Saturday morning with got to level it. Somehow I use the sledge hammer I I think that's the best bet, but I'd rather , no I think I'd rather have a or Mm. Oh yeah. Three to Time I got approximately though on or off for all Do as much as we can,the money I say I'd like a and that's all we want. That's what I'm saying. coffee table and next of tables like yes, and we will want somewhere to put them, see what room we've got, then measure up, then with what room we've suites and carpets There I've set you up there to Why don't you . is she? Yeah. Alright, alright Try, you can hit in there. Bag of nuts please. Ooh. Tell you what, I'll give you a tenner if you break a But, you didn't put it on. Yeah Thank you Ann Will you stop crying and quite a lot, I mean I've They have been really horrible haven't they, them monkey nuts? Yeah, I think it is, when they, when the Ayatollah was getting on his bike I don't know, it's temporary job, I know someone that might be interested, I think I know what it is but, but I just thought I luckily we won't mention it again. So I Gonna have a shock if she got it Yes. Oh. team,out then. Don't help them , by Donald and At least I didn't knock the middle one down. I don't think so somehow. He I've never seen it,I've never seen it. Well I didn't ask for it because But, he's, he's probably under someone with a I didn't They probably know what you mean Yeah, that's right Leave my nuts alone Those are mine actually Oh look at her knocking all them balls of that So, so, what do you really do with pumpkins Cook them. Yeah I It's like a marrow Why, I don't like marrow It's like a marrow but I mean, er Oh what a shame I, I, I know you burn them, I've heard of pumpkin pie, but I mean Well it's, it's, it's a lot like a marrow. all watery. It's, it's it's quite nice actually, it's quite nice. Don't be put off by saying it's like a marrow So you boil it? Yeah. I like it. You mash it, er do you mash it? Get out of that. Do what you like Yeah, or you can have it as a pie, No I don't like that Don't put them down cos they go they don't like They can't go down Give me a I might according to that cos I like yeah. Oh yeah cos I always Oh no, gotta have it all you got to have it all er you've got to have it like that No I don't ain't you Lynda? I've had that Aha, yes That's why I like See what Yeah, but yesterday There's so much to do, Yeah, yeah. only done two thousand pounds of bloody and one of them was ,just got finished. Weren't that . Really and that was ain't got many That's what I'm working on Mm Did they cut them down, yes, they'll have to cut more not many drums in the Did you win? Did I win? You know when I get to bed I can't sleep Yeah, but it's the herbs, it's the herbs oh Don't ask. Pardon. She wouldn't have a cos er, like I said carrot, swede, parsnip, onions I don't like that potatoes, leeks, swede herbs, celery Yeah but you know I don't like any veg you can take all that out It's not a stew without veg, you can't make a stew without Yeah, but , you know I don't eat every veg There's not a lot you can do with the pork once you've cooked it so only What? You didn't want stew We want two rounds of toast with baked beans two poached eggs and two poached eggs and potatoes We're mad Cor am I Last night you had two fillets of plaice and he only had one. I know that was yesterday. He didn't moan. Go hungry one day. I didn't fancy my plaice so I give her mine I had a bit of beef. Mm. You won't grow into a big strong girl you know if you don't eat your vegetables. Well she won't eat no veg only corn on the cob and I buy four of them and they do her a week and when they're gone that's it, she's gotta wait until I go shopping again. See I'm hard done by aren't I? No. brussels sprouts don't you? Er . Brussels sprouts, Only fresh not frozen. Yeah, but you can only buy them for a little while in the year Loads cabbage with plenty of butter on or sprout and broccoli Bubble and squeak now you can't beat that. I love that I do. Good for you. You'll eat my bubble squeak when that's cooking, but you won't eat it. And eaten cheese and that and she says that looks nice, but she won't try. I don't like cheese and I don't like garlic Well I could substitute it, put a bit of parsley in it what? put some parsley in. You like your trout when I do them, but you won't eat one. No, cos it's got all them herbs on it. Well that's the object of cooking them in herbs Herbs are good for you, they're a medicine You know the TV That's why you suffer with constipation love, because you don't eat no vegetables, you wouldn't need,laxatives, if you eat veg. In my herb book, what on the years ago that's all people had for medicines was herbs Yeah there wasn't any when I was and that's why I feel medicine comes from today. finished. Oh There's this butcher he made all his own and he got varieties in, you know, they got garlic in and herbs, everything, you know Yeah I like ale and, they looked ever so I tell you what though, if you, like, I, I never forget when we went to Austria and you went into like a delicatessen place and this place was about a quarter of a mile long, right, never seen so many different looking place with sausages sausages and not not and they had like from end to the other and that I can't do it. you looked at it and you try and look the same cos like you know, you go in there and Let's go up. I mustn't be I can't remember, but years Are you sure? and years ago we went I know I couldn't believe like the extent of the different meats that Yeah. I don't like the smell of and all that I, I, mean we had erm, we went out for the day and they give us it was sandwiches Oh that's right, I couldn't stop laughing looked like a they gave us then. Yeah, was like the or German's I don't mind breakfast, cos I don't mind I don't mind saveloy, I haven't had saveloy for a long while. You got one in. Got one in. Oh have I, oh well, right then I'll I've, I already I say try it, but he won't. But I will know, I put, I try and I will try things, and most, and most adventurous things are spicy Are spicy yeah don't like spicy, I wish I could be like that, but it don't like I mean I'm the opposite to you. Yeah, I can't Yeah, I was like that, curries, Boring yeah What did they Jeanie moaning, Lily weeing, she's got a water infection so she's been about to the loo about five thousand times Oh bloody hell Lisa's friend burst into tears in Oh she's got problems she's split up with her boyfriend, Oh dear. She's also got a little debt behind Tony hasn't been paying the bills. oh gawd. she's been contributing that's one reason one , she's, discovered other things, this morning somebody turned up apparently they took a loan out He's not paying it apparently turned up this morning and they want a hundred pound by tomorrow, and they're coming back tomorrow for it paying him ten pound a week and thought it was gone and he had er none so find a hundred pound by tomorrow and she didn't know where she was going to get it from, she just stood there and burst into tears and run off going on Yeah, that is not good. but she saw him on the way to work in town, had a bloody great barney with him on the market place on the way to work, just say, she was in there about ten minutes and burst into tears Not very good He said twenty in that, I said yeah I've already done it, so I've dished it up and then out comes the . When I, I didn't put any extra on mine and I don't thought oh did tell you I put some in it , he said but yeah but you don't normally put much in it he Oh I love it, and I've barred it from the house. he's barred it from the house. I said, I said I'm not having that here If I buy it I have to wrap it up so because it , I said that it's I said you ain't having that in cooked it. You, I didn't cook it, I bought it, it was already done . Well what you you eat it and it's dear,, we do, we do tons and tons of it every day I love it . You wouldn't if you, you wouldn't if you had to deal with it all day long when we down to London last week, we went in to see a friend of ours, she works in the sandwich bar and erm, he said oh we'll have something to eat so I said to Chris they had this great big bowl of chicken tikka, ooh It's very expensive . want that bit he won't talk to me if I had that. Ever so expensive Ooh lovely Yeah it is, I mean the first time I bought it Its two pound thirty five for six bits yeah or er, half a pound er yeah, that, that's how I bought it in Sainsburys a few years ago About six, seven pieces How much is it? Two pound thirty five,half pound Half a pound? Yeah there's a lot goes in apart from the chicken there's a heck of lot goes in it in the Put cream and the expensive bits, not like the chicken and the time it takes Oh yeah. Yeah, but that Yeah So does Stuey and so does Bob, don't you Bob? It's tandoori that he likes. It is that tandoori, he loves that I don't like any of them and then when you've seen them all day long it puts you off a bit don't like none of the I like chicken cos I like that. Can't get hold of them. Its a shame innit? Used to get them a lot, but we haven't seen any for ages. Hello dearest Hello my darling All right then? Yep You Yep and what's the plan of attack today? Oh plan of attack erm down. I'll go and tell the estate agent you'll be a little bit late. Yeah. You go to the solicitor and then I'll see you on the wa , on that part of the shop It is a problem estate agents' name, look as though it Yeah, on the appointment you could get from the solicitor was Get those soon as poss, and I'll go and look in the carpet shop Yes find out a few details and I'll meet you back at the estate agents Oh or if you're out early, well forms sign, so you might be a little while and if you've got, oh we're going to mum's then aren't we? Said it's still very early, we could pop to Leveringham, oh we don't know where it is we might have some details in this, what we gotta do with my money. My house, my house, my I shouldn't think until you at least gone to the mortgage he's gonna give us authorization to spend his money. I'm not gonna use authori to go and spend one thousand, five hundred pounds and it all falls through That's true, that's true, that's true, after we've spent it very true, very true And what we having for lunch? Don't know, I don't know what we're having Taking fish to mum's or find something when we get there? You taking depends how old it will be don't it, don't know how old it will be. No No point in buying fish extra if we know we're gonna be, have to wait or something If we're gonna be late, we'll have to buy the fish, cos we won't have time to cook anything. Oh fish and chips you mean, from the chippie? Yeah, yes I'll just have a piece of fish and you can have fish and chips, we won't have time to cook anything will we? That's what I mean Depending on the time. or I say chicken alright? Depending on how long we're gonna have to cook it, well I mean,, oh well what I can still you'll have to fish and chips still you perhaps have to buy fish and chips Why? cos Ann hasn't got a lot of pennies anyway Nor has Stuey. hasn't he? Oh bloody hell, we're poor streaks then dear. That's wise you know. Bloody hell,then, it's chicken Right oh yeah well, we've got some erm cordon bleu or some whatever, you know, It can go in microwave. or whatever's Go in the microwave that's all, I ain't got much money at all, I didn't have that much left, I bought mum's cigs and that bit of shopping the other day and that was the end of that we will survive. Pay day late again? Even if we only have a tin of soup, that will do me. Yeah, I don't mind so it's pay day today Yeah but you can't get it till tomorrow there is a little bit in the bank, but not a lot, go wait till tomorrow and we must get to Chester Hill today . I like that, I don't like Jason Donovan but I quite like that, do you? Not bad I don't like him, I never have but I, try not,quite pleasant isn't it? Oh yes pleasant, oh yes pleasant. I've never liked anything else he's had,particularly have you? But I just find that pleasant listening. Oh it's a pleasant sound. Pleasant and nice songs I suppose I don't know it's just, quite like it, it's now big, it's about the most thing he's ever recorded that I have liked, Mm. I've absolutely never been a Jason Donovan fan before Christmas number one's going to be Bohemian Rhapsody which I do like you know I know, will do. yes, it's already going to the top of the charts to be number one for Christmas all the other Christmas songs are They're all coming down and that one's er yep going up that will do. They always prices keep falling. Well, I understand its reasoning , but, I think if you've been very hard pushed list, with this money, don't you? Mm, mm. Considering I'm not supposed to have that cos I had it when Ann and bought it not sure if it's now are you? Not really, was, though I thought we were offering a reasonable price taking everything into consideration upstairs and price market market erm, how long we've been here sitting tenants er I'm not thinking it object the sitting tenants the , I thought that was fair as it stands at the moment. fairly good deal. Mm. See here, they're gonna get thirty six for it as it stands put it on the market as Might do, yeah. Might even two years . When you look at, look at the old houses on the market, erm, yeah, I think he might just, he might wait a while, there aren't that many buyers, Oh that's it, that's why they're coming down, that's why are quite pleased to see us dear, especially at this time of the year, not many people will buy Christmas time, think oh we'll wait and go and get Christmas over and the spring and I think looking at the market you can, you can get a, erm detached, semi-detached sort of one you know one bedroom I suppose, You can get two bedroom two bedroom at a push for about thirty four, thirty five, thirty six, thirty seven, oh I don't know, I don't know, I think it will be a while getting rid of it yes, but I think he might get his price eventually, but it will take a long while to get it , it's up to him if he wants a quick sale,you know, thirty five yeah I, thirty five thousand I think , as I say taking everything into consideration, I mean, failing three okay I know I did the thirty three so take thirty five, thirty three and a half, oh he ain't got much to worry about Well I'd better get some clothies on cause a bit of a stir round the estate agents , naked from the waist down,darling What that's ten minutes slow Just a-f-bout done all your paper work on them teams I know. got a he's coming tomorrow you know, got the bird as well ain't we, that's why I got up early to I, go through deeply objective. Why, what's been it's completely anonymous number you know it's only to be on that, said I'll wipe it off then, you bloody well won't, I think he wants to tell people before he can say very wrong, could say something personal,if it was personal, no longer it, no you weren't personal to you, but I'm quite happy to arrange it if you wish, no, no, no, no, no,, I shouldn't have to tell you not to take my points in full, there we go it's driving me doing that in the factory having without people's permission, I want to know, I ask permission if I'd er wanted to as a without being asked to do it, I would of gone and seen personnel and asked, I would not of dreamed of doing it in a work's situation unless I was asked, say anything personal I'd turned it off not that it, apart from me and Stuart Go on. apart from me and Stuart there's nothing personal on it really, we went me and er telling me about her problems I only put that on a tape do you? , its not er you know, anything personal like that you turn it off don't you?not that they know or care whi anyone's personal problems anyway, they don't know who we are Cos a conversation like that very well be a private person will not be a but then again you, you might, you might come up and say, say something that that they wanna hear, you wanna hear? Yeah, but No, but you said you yeah that's what I mean the person have a private conversation and let someone say it to me and it, what they, problems it's not something that you wanna be on somebody else's to listen to is it? You just don't do it, you know its anonymous. Deirdre's the only person that's erm got one I on there Saw her car Well I thought I was gonna hit a tree I suppose I had better make a move to get some clothes on you think? Well you needn't bother. No won't go nowhere that I do Get a pair of scissors cut that out and stick it on these What do you think? Yes it will be good, I hope so, I'm getting nervous now. Well he don't usually turn up till twenty to and then we was there a little bit early as well Yeah Yeah,get some sticky tape, I know that, well they do twenty bit of table put a plant on it, stick it on the mm, mm, Cup of tea on the road, yes I'm a few minutes gonna get busier Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday afternoons, and evening and er It's house Sunday,out Christmas at least it will be a bit more that was the instead and you and I sleep on the settee. turf her out on the bed she might sleep with me and you sleep on the settee or would be a bit better than two beds than the settee, an extra bed space for her mum's house too much for over Christmas, that's not fair she's not all over the place . about moving, I chest some things, she won't be there, I'm not taking it all up there. No. She got I don't fancy that at all, sleeping in the to her garage looking my things, It 's all his stuff in the garage, that belongs to oh Oh. exactly, it don't sound very good does it? No Cor, he's low, bloody hell What have you lost? I can't find the car keys. Oh we won't go far without them. Took them back in I lock the door you lock them in?on your knee. I must of had them on my lap and normally put it straight to the ignition. And off we'd jolly well go. Broke my nail look at that. Oh dear you It looks horrid doesn't it? I caught it on a rack in the Nasty, nasty, nasty. It was hanging on so I had to take it off they are a bloody nuisance them racks you know, dangerous Are they? It's a wonder people haven't had serious injuries from them really. Yeah. Don't know we get away with it they want the whole lot bloody scrapping and the new lot all the rust ones, there's hardly one decent is there? No. Chucked all the duff ones out At least, yeah, I should think nine tenths of them would go, very there's yesterday's winner darling. Still trotting along . That's where all my horses go. I got ride on a horse, poor horse with me on it There's heavier people than me that ride , jump jockeys are nearly as heavy as me that ride. That's true true,not that No, she's that er she's not She's not fat but she's a big lady like me. She's same sort of weight as you? Yeah yeah, she's a big lady like me, solid. Tall isn't she? Yeah jockeys are eleven stone aren't they, er jump jockeys jump jockeys are All the weight and that are aren't they? Yeah,and going over jumps and god knows what else which one's quite a way really isn't it?it's quite comfortable eleven, eleven and a half, eleven stone over jumps innit? Ten stone's Is it? Ten stone is race, why I do they have weights do they jump jockeys, Some time you get a to carry ten stone, he's got seven pound from, so carries nine stone seven ten stones about twelve stone it certainly is a I think I quite enjoy a ride yeah . Did you like horses, you don't fancy getting on the back of one? No. Oh, thought you would. you are a large, but Yes, what I'm saying, yeah whatever cart horse Especially this one it does say, it will have to be a bloody great stallion wouldn't it?but er,I think it will be quite enjoyable. Wash the curtains today in the pub Oh god, I got a frog in me throat. Where you going to park? No, I can't understand why people who do, who work in town don't use that one really. Pardon. I doubt they do as well. Oh I don't know, cos there's a hell of a lot of people parking, same cars in that multi-storey in there. Let's have a look then. can if you want, in the it's not that far to go around and use one for the whole day. Pardon. I suppose. Yeah, that gets pretty full weekends but I don't like that one every week in The Standard there's always a, you know, this break in, that break in and When you park your car you've got the breaking in. I know, but that one seems worse than anywhere, isn't it, every week you know stolen out of the car park car broken into, I mean who's, I can't imagine with all them cars in there that nobody ever seems to see anything. No. Or they do, and turn a blind eye. Quite often that happens late at night, doesn't it, you know Yeah after chucking out time. I think a lot of people are just, you know, I'm not getting involved in them, they might belt me one, walk away, anyway you can't blame them, sad, people can't, people can't say it were you and your boy, you know, leave that, leave that alone or else I'll go and get a policeman, the fear of them Young belting them one. go and get a policeman, time you've gone and got a policeman they're off They're gone you know, so, there's no seen so much of it that it, that somebody will see some of it but then, well maybe there, and he didn't really erm, you know, you get out of it quick. Turn a blind eye don't they? Yeah, cos they don't want to get involved and they're frightened of the consequences. more police statements and probably hours police stations Yeah. that to find out that you shopped them they just as liable to put a brick through your window, or belt you one, or damage your car next time they see it. Yeah. So you can't blame people in that respect really. So it's, if you want to get it done this will be one hell of a big car park won't it? Yep. If only That's er, quite full dear. No I can't make out what they're doing today it's all parked all fully today. Oh, get anywhere. It's Thursday can you not park next to that No, Oh yeah. Oh well, is there a reason why I can't park there No, there really is erm how much room have I left in front , yeah park the car there That lady's gonna come next to us look as though she's looking to see if it's available There's the . she's getting through all right and that one's getting through all right, yeah she's coming next to us. Where's she going?car park there. She is, Have to watch way you go around it's a pity gone over there really I don't know where I'm going, wherever you're going you're going this way , you see my watch says quarter to twelve you going on market, I'm going . turn up got you a darling. new car park Mm. and nice , no, erm It was If I buy some carpets fitting or do I extra for the fitting? Well the price you actually see on the er we don't say free cos it's not No, well you know what I mean it's, was I, I didn't know whether you had to pay No some places you do or whether Yeah it's all included It's all included. I mean if you do buy hessian back carpet the only thing we do charge extra for is two pound fifty on top or two, seventy five, two seventy five for underlay and that sort of stuff, if you buy foam back it's the price you see So everyone's on that training scheme now I suppose aren't they? Marvellous Yeah marvellous shame that Drive me nuts, what make you do it, what too old? Too old they said, but, Now it's, now it's gone up to twenty four now, was eighteen, now it's twenty four. Typical, I could of done that. Yeah gone on it, I don't know why, I said to our how many years is it gonna take you to do it? He's never there to do it. No, it's proper actually just er Is it, oh, that's Huh, he's a good, good lad, but he's er he drinks rather a lot and suffers quite a lot from hangovers, he comes in dries up and goes home again He's got hangover at night er day actually Oh god yeah awful cos I'm first-aided I usually get, I'm the, the lucky person who hangs his head over a sink and sends him home again Quite often She's doing very well. She started before me actually. Yeah, she's now What you got, I am getting, I'm moving into a new flat soon and I want a living room, a lounge, a lounge, bedroom, a hall, a bathroom and a kitchen Ah, well, now erm, I, I'm looking we bill for all that sort of stuff Yeah. Well these, all these sort of ones round here suitable for living rooms and that sort of stuff, erm down the end we've got ones for bathrooms, kitchens, erm what did you say? Bedroom Bedroom, yeah well these these these ones are yeah, but they usually get, well quite a good duty bedroom we have got some good heavy ones, heavy deciding what colour ceilings I'm having. Erm, I'm not absolutely certain, I ain't got the keys, I mean we're waiting for the mortgage to that's just being decided, draw the contracts after the exchange and er all that lark, but it will be a few weeks. My girlfriend's trying to sell that. Yeah I know, I had Maureen on the phone to me last week Had somebody down and Yeah, yeah offered them a ridiculous price the rate last week and every time she she has to stay in bed like you know, someone rings up, she says, Maureen says get up because someone coming round to your house. you can't have, be in bed while there's someone looking in your bedroom. Well dad said you tell them he said you're ill, stay in bed. , she's off today isn't she, aren't they going to Yeah Lorraine's got going to tribunal tribunal or something, yeah Maureen said she was going. She wanted her mum to go with her really, cos Lorraine had well it's not very nice is it? I was gonna try and get a bit of, day off, and see how they got on, don't know. Oh, well, I'll keep it in mind when I get the lights then I'll come and pick the colour see what's on offer when you do I mean I can't go until I get a key When you, when you, when you and some date and know when I'm gonna be able to do it. when you do get the keys or whatever, if you come back we can always come round and measure up and Well that's it. that's, that's no charge on that Yeah. just come back and pick your carpet, or we can bring some round and show you. Yeah, they're completely empty so they might Yeah I want the carpets putting in before we get anything else in. Yeah, right. , make a start. bathroom carpets we always do it's the warm back Yeah cos they seemed to we can go low, low or high, high yeah, aha, it will be sort of medium I think Medium, yeah we've got all sorts. I say, I've got a lounge, bedroom, the hall, and the bathroom and I've got about seven hundred pounds and that's about it, so erm We'll squeeze you in. Right, I'll be back Okay thank you. bye It looks like a little bit longer than we first Oh great rush to get in ain't we No what we're, what I'm gonna do, I'm gonna transfer the this afternoon, okay, so what money you full address of the account Won't be long I'll leave you to it. Yeah, alright. Have you any questions you got at all, or you're not sure? I don't think so , no thank you very much Probably, don't tell the tax office what you earn anyway, I Yes, I mean, somebody's gonna, can I, can I just take say, two, three, and I'll just photostat them and I'll What I've , what I've brought, and I've brought three Yeah, that's fine one I've brought that basically yeah, okay, yeah that's all of an average week yes we can expect most yeah, right, okay so it throughout the year yeah that's sort of a rough average, but that's er a better, you know a more, that's so, I mean, yeah that's when the season's in yeah okay, I'll just do that see,obviously we, we do more overtime I can't think, what else have you brought? I've brought everything that you've told me to Yeah and more just in case He just brought his things. Erm,arrange your sort code and post with national insurance number, tax references and pay slips that's That's what I was told to bring and that's what I have brought. Yeah, I'm, I've got another form, I can just take note of any other er personal pension, not personal pension, any erm other insurance you've got, just put it on there and, and that's Just in case it, it ties it up, yeah Alright? Yeah,oh god I don't understand it me, but erm Is that alright? Assuming, assuming that's thirteen per cent pension at the moment See you can always increase sir . So you've contracted out of serps? Yes, So if I can just put a tick there erm, yeah I'll put you down anyway, okay. There you go, I think with everything you, you, you can't get too many details can you? I mean, it's all relevant to somebody Er, do you want my membership number? Yes, okay. That's with Prudential When did that start? when have you , you see, there's two parts to it Yeah, contracted out of serps and there's also a, a frozen loan a frozen pension also comes into it. So when, when do, the one, the one that you just give me, the Yeah what does, what was the start of that?, the commencement, benefit commencement date, sixth of April nineteen eighty eight, that was the contracting out Yeah, that was the old yes, twelve hundred, mention the benefit drawn from DSS and then your transfer transfer which says you've got a number, a reference number there It's all the same. it's all the same Yeah. so the scheme, there's a scheme number as well, I don't want that yes, that's one, and that started on the first of August nineteen ninety good that's fine, yeah, so the information's there so that, that's the contracting And you don't think we'd need anything you don't actually have a Fine, can you bear with me for five seconds while I'll just make a phone call? Mm, mm. Just to make sure that everything's done Now, they've done all the paperwork for the Yeah. okay, the two filled in, one would be pensionable, one would be insurance, okay, what other in , piece of paper do I need? Yes, erm, It's just the application Alright then, thanks very much, bye, bye. Oh you need the mortgage okay They must be used to that, or got out of practice. Yeah. Yeah, cos he must of dealt with blooming all the sign here, I remember signing, he signed, I signed, he signed, witnessed it and witnessed yours, remember?, he must be quite used to it Mm, yeah. Hello there, how are you? We're erm, Yeah. and then she was getting Okay, yeah, lovely, bye. bye. You weren't actually on, on this, I think he needs two illustrations that's right yeah, so, don't, don't According to them we've done it alright Yes, well, I know the problems. Yes, everyone passes the buck and Yeah, they do . I've given you two, two administrations haven't I? Yes Last one and this one and that's what we want, two administrations, that form er Okay, well, by the way The worse thing is having to come back in Right. to sort out, to sign a bloody great Yeah, and it's all held up Yeah, I know for one bit of paper . spend five minutes now, than you'll have to sort of come in again. Mm, mm. Right, when you're actually doing the busy outside, not from an office, when you're sort of going out and see people, it's always the one that's, the furthest away. I used to work for a furniture and I always had the King's Lynn I think was always easier from Newmarket , it never was King's Lynn ever. Just for one, for one signature you had to drive twenty miles Absolutely ten miles there, ten miles back yes, that's right to sign this form in it Hello there,please, thanks a lot, bye The, the, the, the, the number that you've just quoted me is yes, oh yes, I, I need a that has to be signed for the people in er Norwich, okay, yes, so, you want a F P, F P and Its a you need two illustrations and a , that's a , yeah, well, now I'm not actually no, well I won't , so . I did receive your new forms yesterday which were the for the illustration, they're, they're gonna be but you're not gonna have to send er, erm They're in duplicate now, so I mean that's better Okay, so that's it, so you go one, two, three, four, five pieces of paper Right at the back of there, what's that? That's fine, yep. Thank you. Thank you very much, and I'll, I'll get that I'm gonna go over to Peterborough this afternoon, I'll drop it all in, they'll send it to Norwich and I'll get it off to you okay, great, thanks very much. hang on a second, when do you actually wanna a,when are you actually moving into the house We want it done as soon as possible to as soon as possible yes, right, so I'm Right, with that sorted out okay I'm, I'm, part of this er is, is his name and address, I presume that you will, you will contact , yeah, well we, we, we want to do so I mean, what, what do I have to do? Shall I, do you put a lot of stick on the saying it's not so, do you know the in a position to exchange contracts. No. No. So I mean. We're in a position to exchange contracts at any time, but the solicitor, it's up to the solicitor Yes okay, so as soon as he, he comes for confirmation, then we'll exchange . I'll put, I'll put that one anyway, cos it sounds like okay? Right. Thanks very much for your help, okay, bye. That's okay, she's also given me the right words to use to put it through urgently, okay, cos I mean you, I know you haven't exchanged yet, but you want to do that fairly quickly. What is that, that'll be with the solicitor when he's, when he's gone through everything I Okay, well that , that, that can go on risk on a phone call Mm, mm. okay, so if I mean if you come to me and see and say we wanna exchange on tomorrow Yeah , yeah. and er, erm, that's, that's already got, you know, so if I put that in today Mm, mm. Mm, mm. is what Thursday, Thursday, yeah, at the worse that will get there Monday okay, they'll try and put it on risk for, or get something moving on that Mm, mm as soon as possible, if you give them to me some time next week say Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, and we can say right, I want it Friday or Monday, okay, I've just got to phone them and they will, they will put it on risk for you Mm, mm. it usually, it only takes a day once they've received it, if that's alright? Yeah. Fine. We'll try and get it legal before But we done, what actually, what actually happens now, I mean what, I mean my mortgage, what We just what is that, what happens to that thirty thousand pounds, that I've now applied for? Does that go to the solicitors or to my solicitors or where does that go to now? What, what, do I just have to sit and wait until it all gets accepted and they sit on it or No, it's a, it's a, it's a hundred percent mortgage isn't it? Yeah. Okay, so, we tie that up with the solicitor so, so it's On a, yeah so the solicitor has to be er, he acts for you, he doesn't act for anybody else Oh I see. and he protects you, and he says that's okay to go ahead, so once we've er established when you want to exchange contracts and everything Yeah. it's just a matter of him sort of saying that's perfectly okay, I mean, you can get a copy of that or phone call from them, well, if he's, if he's not happy with anything, they, they're quite willing to contact him direct Mm, mm. okay, now, er, as long as the standing order's kicking okay, there's not a problem, you have not got to worry now, erm, all it is, is, it just falls into like the payments come out, twenty five years, one pays out the other, end of story. Mm. The one, when, when, when, when does the mortgage payment actually come out? The actual two hundred and whatever it was Er Seventh of January if we've got it Onc , once you know the date of exchange of contracts Yeah okay, it's the nearest to the fifth, the fifteenth or the thirtieth Oh I see so if you do it say, if, if it was exchange contracts today yeah you could, the, the next payment is due on the fifteenth. Oh I see But if you exchange contracts on the fif , the fifteenth so we start paying for the mortgage when the contracts are exchanged? Absolutely Oh I see yes yeah till then, it's everything's in the air, okay? Ok, right-y-oh But if you've got any more questions, I mean don't hesitate to come back, because at the end of the day I'd rather you know too much than not enough not enough, that's it well I mean if you've been in, you sat the opposite way Yeah, yeah . you know what it's, I mean it only costs me, five minutes on the phone and I've got the information for you, but if you've got a sleepless night, that's not worth it. No. One small Still that doesn't matter if, because if I put yes because, in case it makes a difference to your hang on, I have got the figures here Erm, twelve ninety, twelve ninety four, erm I, I don't think you're absolutely spot on, cos you had them on the other one didn't you? So I've altered that to twelve ninety four and there's a twenty eight, So have I that is an eight O, one, okay What number? and in fact you smoker, it's on your medical thing When, when we got access to the medical thing it said non smoker It said cigarettes,do I smoke cigarettes and I said no, which is honest which, which is yes, yeah so make it out cheaper they'll make them out cheaper a little bit cheaper absolutely, yeah Fair enough, as long as though we honest Well I think you know, you, you, you, it was an honest answer to, to both questions, cos they didn't say do you smoke a pipe, that you smoke you know or whatever or just said cigarettes. Don't smoke cigarettes and I thought no when it comes back it may work out much cheaper. Yeah, that's right. Right, okay, thanks very much Okay see you again Bye now Bye Yeah. Not good is it? No. I mean this is a bitch. I'm not the best to s pick it up on the stitches and No I'm not either. I'm not either. Well how's things? hard. Oh fine. Are you now a house owner? Well subject to him getting the mortgage. He's signed er for everything and seen the solicitor. We've just got to see if the Yeah. There's a letter for him there. Yeah I see . We brought our own dinner. Have you? What have you got? We've brought some fish and chips. You didn't want any did you cos you're going to Vera's? No no I'm going to Vera's. That's alright. That's what we thought otherwise we'd have brought some. No no. Did you hear that pussycat? Fish and chips. Fishy chippy. Do you wanna set up table or do you want, or? Not unless you want to sit at the table do you? It's up to you. I don't mind. Wherever you want to sit. So that's it then is it? Yeah we've just got now wait for solicitors an an and the mortgage . Have you got in touch with a solicitor? Yeah he's been to see him. Oh he's been to see him already? Yeah. Ooh. So that's all arranged and now it's just waiting for everything to Yeah and how do you think, how long do you think they're gonna take? How long do you Well the mortgage people have said a couple of days Ooh well. then we'll know whether he's got it or not. I mean all the papers won't be through but they can tell us whether it's Yeah? alright. And then you can exchange contracts solicitor. But he said he's got a lot of things to go through before he Yes a a week. he can advise us so You might have it in a week. Mm maybe next week you'll be We can exchange contracts probably next week some time. Well when you exchange contra that's it. Because you don't have to wait for anybody getting out. You know it's not like No, that's it. like You need to Eh? partake? Fine thank you. You want a cup of tea? Yeah I'm gonna put the kettle on Yeah alright. Yeah make us a cup of coffee Stuart. Well we'll probably have our dinner first then I'll probably do it. Oh alright. That's a beau Help y , do what you like. So, it's all up to the solicitors really er their solicitors and and Stuart's solicitors they will get everything s sorted out. Yeah. The legal details. Yeah. Yeah that's it then. Mm. Getting exciting now. And once we've exchanged contracts then we can have this solicitor's letter for this fifteen hundred pound to go ahead and all this that and the other. That's right. So we can start deciding what we're having and where. It's funny you know, we went to Well you sh when you j er er j er you, you think your contract, you should get the key Ann. Just about. You will, it won't be, take long No. after that if you No I mean the contract's the They're trying their best to get it done before christmas, so Ooh. shouldn't be that long. Did you tell them that you've got a you're now living, you know? What are you gonna do Yeah about that? That's what you've got to make up your mind about. When you moving out? Well he's got to ring Mr and see if he if he really pushes for a month's notice well we'll have to just pay another month and stay you know? Yeah. And if if he doesn't, if he says that's fair enough, well we're erm there's no point in paying another one when that money can go towards something else can't it? He's had to pay forty pound this morning. Still have to have a search. Isn't it ridiculous. Even though it's a brand new house and they're not gonna pull it down tomorrow to build a bloody factory on top of it. Yeah I know Ann but see it could be a er a jerry-built. He's had to pay he's got to pay forty pound this morning for a search. Yeah. Solicitors. Yeah. You see it could be jerry-built. What are you doing? We'll sit here. It's alright. Sit here. It's no problem. What do you want? Do you want You can get her, get her get her I just want a piece of fish. Salt? Vinegar? No. Mustard? Just, just put a bit of salt on it for me. Bit of salt? Yeah. Sure? Yeah. You could get er, it could be a jerry-built. No he has to pay, it's forty pound for this search. He said there won't Yeah I know. be no problems as far as he knows. He's already dealt with the company so Yeah. That's what I'm saying but aye oh well they Ann they have you They have to do it. by the short and curlies. They have to do it. Yeah. You you To make sure it's not gonna have a motorway going through in next year or whatever and I know but as I said they have you by the short and curlies. Yeah. You just have to You have to just sit yeah Yes, say yes and and get your chequebook out. pay up . It's true isn't it? He paid that forty pound anyway, that's Yeah, yeah. made a start. Yeah. Yeah you you you er oh they are er you have to . But at least there's no stamp duty because it's less than thirty three thousand. Yeah, yeah you're And that's quite a bit of saving cos Thirty three thousand? Is that It's thirty three thousand under You have to pay stamp duty for Anything over that. Oh I thought it was more than that. I thought it No. erm I thought the limit Thirty three now. Ooh god. No I thought the the limit was higher than that. I thought it was about fifty thousand. Oh no it's it's I know a lot of people used to thirty used to thirty two thousand five hundred. Yeah. Anything under that you don't pay. A lot of people d used to ask the pri make the price of the house just under the stamp duty. Yeah so they could so they could, didn't have to pay it. So they didn't have to pay it. I mean what is stamp duty? It's ridiculous really isn't it? Oh god that's government. That's it. Why should they have a cut of it? That's the government. Oh well you You buy a house and have to pay the government for the pleasure. You have Ann. You have to pay for everything. You used to have to pay for the stamps, you know there used to be a stamp Had a stamp on it, yeah. Do you remember the little stamp? Yeah. You used to buy the I don't know whether they do that or not now. I don't know whether they do that. I know it's quite, the stamp duty can come to a lot of money can't it? Yeah. And mine did. Yeah. I read that Yeah, you had it out the other day. It's a lot of money. I didn't think it would be that. Well the solicitor just took that off the price of the house. Well that's it, they just they just see to it all. You don't know how many, how much Yeah but see they can't do that with you cos you're not selling a house. No. You're just buying a house. Mm. You know, so ooh they're crafty aren't they? Never mind, not to worry. Not to worry, all these things come to try you. Yeah. We signed all the forms anyway so that's something. But with his being tied up with a pension he gets twelve thousand pension as well. Oh, that's alright. But then if he if he ever needs Once he retires. Yeah but what happens if he snuffs it? Is that house paid for Ann? Oh yeah. Oh that's alright. That's covered. It will be yours. Yeah that's alright. Mine? Ooh ? Yeah. You're his next of kin and you're the one on the paper. He had to put your name down on it. Did he? As you're next er his next of kin and you will the property will become yours. You'll have to Is that alright? You'll have to make a will now then. If you don't want all the chips don't bother Oh I don't want as that, I didn't want as that. I said a couple. Well that is a couple. I say he'll have to make a will now. So that you'll be the beneficiary. Don't matter does it? No, but you should do. Aye it does matter! Does matter. I say I can't see you saying right he's died tom today, out tomorrow can you? I didn't think I'd get anything anyway. You're his next of kin you see. Am I? Mm. How about his father? Yeah, how about his father? he didn't mention it. Your name's on it now. Yeah but his father's his next of kin just as much as I am Ann. put that out, I'll put that out cos you'll not get any peace. You won't get any peace Ann. I'll put that out. Well your name's on it so that's it. Yeah but I was just saying, when you think about it. See, there's all these complications. If anything happens to me. Yeah but if you're the named person. Yeah. I don't know whether his father is probably is isn't he? Mhm. See if you think about that don't you? It's the same with anything to me, if I leave this house to Sheila and Bruce if anything happened to Sheila Bruce would get it. You know. Sh Sheila's dad. Shouldn't, he should really but I don't really want that to happen . And that's the law isn't it? Shouldn't say that, should I? I know. When my mother met, we were met you know when we got married the solicitor had us in because he wanted us to make a will because see we didn't take the money that we got from mum. But if anything had happened to me any of her husbands could. Is that alright dear? Lovely thank you. Yeah. And me mum used to live off the interest on what, you know dad cos he didn't leave a will. But when we got married see that complicated things because if anything had happened to me Your husband would have been entitled to it. yo my husband was entitled to it. That's it. Well there you are. Yeah, all sorts of funny things can happen, isn't there? When you think about it. Kettle is boiling if you want a Pardon? The kettle I'll make it in a minute. No no no no. I'll wait until you've had your tea. It's alright I've had my hair done. Yeah it looks nice. So I see. Yeah, she only charged me two fifty today. It's nice. Mind your fish darling. I know. She's already had a little bit. Yeah, I'm gonna I I'm gonna let her put her out Stuart because you gotta get any peace when you're eating. I'm just wait till I finish this few stitches then I'm ready You don't want me any other time, do you? Eh? She's been in a funny mood this morning. She's been jumping about and going all larming And I don't know why no reason. She's been hiding behind that chair and mm jumping about. It must be spring coming or something. How do you feel now, any better? Mm. A bit better. I went out for a walk yesterday. Well I went along to get my . It was shut weren't it! I didn't realise what Oh Wednesday! Course. Yeah, I forgot all about that but it didn't matter anyway. I'll let her out I'll put her out. alright. No she's not. She's alright mother. She's al mum leave her. I'll give her some, leave her there. Well sit there then. You can annoy him. Well she is annoying. I've had it. You sit and you try and eat your tea and you can't. She nearly has it off your plate. When Bruce and Sheila were here the other night we had fish she was on the table. She was sitting on the chair with her head Oh. I mean that's not right. I don't agree with that myself. Here you are Ann. Look at this. Lovely. It it's taking taking shape. I've I've just look I've just got the neck now to do. Which I'm doing. Hope I've got it right. You could wear this inside out you know. It looks just as good as the other way doesn't it? Yeah. Just as good the other way. Yeah. Now I haven't got any knitting. Oh gawd. Puss! Come here. Behave yourself or a smack on the bum. What time you going down to Vera's? Some time this afternoon? Yeah. Yeah. Be nice. Had Freda on the phone this morning but I told her that I wouldn't doing the . Not not this week. Not tonight anyway. And I've been in next door. Well Ooh. Somebody left some coffee, you know that man comes with the coffee Stuart? Mhm. He, they left the er they'd gone said leave it in the conservatory, then he went out and and and and er shut his conservatory so they couldn't leave it so they asked me to keep it for him. Ann, don't let her do it. She's a bugger isn't she? Ah . we we we've started. What? All the house and the, it's all all in motion. What was the letter then? I don't know. He hasn't opened it yet. You'd better open it. It's obviously from the so solicitor or something. I didn't know whether you needed it before when you went up there today. Yeah you'll be alright now. And he's applied for his job so. Has he? Ooh. New house new job. keeps saying to me new house new job new baby. Baby that's right. No, not possible. That's right. That's what happened with me Ann. Oh. When we bought Devon Road. I wasn't in there long until I was pregnant with Sheila. Mm. Yeah I forgot to do my football pools. You know I am going funny. I put the dustbin bag out on the Wednesday and it and and and it should have been Thursday and . And when he came I said what are you doing here?this is Wednesday. I'm in a right muddle. Better not look at your numbers then. No. He would have stayed and while I did it but . Right what's, what do you want? Taking your fish now. Mm? You'd think she was starving wouldn't you? Oh I know she is cos she told me you don't feed her properly. Oh lie lie! They got in touch with the solicitor for you then Stuart? They've done all that. Yeah. Have they? We just had to go up and see him and What, the solicitor? Yeah he's been to solicitor as well. Oh you've been to solicitors this morning? Who's your solicitor then? Pat . Who? Pat . Oh aye. Doesn't Derek work for him? Yeah . He's still there is he? Mhm. Did you see him? Mhm. Did you? How is he? Alright. Yeah, he used to work for . He still does. Does he really? Oh god. Is he getting old looking? I bet he is. He Not really. Eh? Not really. Isn't he? Has he got a, still got a beard? Oh yeah. Has he? Mm. You're gonna have to see Stuey now cos Ann's eaten her fish and he's got . Go on cat. It was a lovely bit of fish. I never had one bone in it, have you? Where did you get it?? Yeah. Up the road here? Mm. Yeah. We don't have it very often. I suppose you appreciate it more when you Yeah. We cook it as I say I mean but I don't often go up the chip shop. Well how, how much was that? If you don't mind me asking. Your fish and chips. What, altogether? Yeah. Eh? Three quid. Well, Sheila brought some fish round here on Tuesday. Admittedly . And it was four pounds. Mm I know. The fish! I know. On its own! Well the last time I bought some then it was three pound something for me and you. Yeah. I mean I give Bruce the biggest bit you know Admittedly you get more don't you, for four pounds. Oh admittedly. But it was four pou it's three pound something a pound Ann. Yeah. That's what I paid. Cod. Just cod. I just had just over a pound Yeah,isn't that dear? of fish and it, it was three pound something. Isn't that dear? Mm. I mean admittedly you don't get that much fish in there do you? No, cos there's a lot of batter There's a lot of batter. round it. Mm. But that's what it cost, the fish itself, four pound. I know. It is expensive. Yeah. It used to be a cheap meal Ann. You see we moan about paying three pound a pound for meat but you pay it for fish. Yeah. It's no different really is it? Yeah. Yeah but I mean fish we we used to consider fish Oh it was cheap. as a cheap meal weren't it? Yeah. No wonder people don't buy it and now, you know I mean the fish sales have gone down. No wonder. meat's cheaper. Mm. I mean that was cod. What did we have last time? That wasn't nothing special. Just cod, ordinary cod. Whether we had haddock or something, didn't we? Yeah. Or plaice, was it? Well it it's not that much dearer now than the Plaice I think we had didn't we? Something like that I know Salmon's a bit salmon is Trout's the cheapest and Yeah. That's what I'm saying That that's ever so cheap, trout isn't it? You could get a nice It's only two pounds a That's right. You could get a nice pound of trout for Mm. two bits of trout for might as well get trout. Mm. Don't forget you're gonna get a lot of if you have a whole trout you've got skin and Oh yeah, but not that much. Not that much. You can eat the skin anyway. That's it. I like the skin. Mm I do. Only the head and the tail and the innards Yeah. and then the rest's all edible. Yeah. Do you want erm an apple crumble? Do you want Ann to go and whip you up an apple crumble? Not today. There's a bit of cake there. Bruce didn't have any cake. Is he alright? Yeah. Or is he a bit, still a bit Oh I don't know. Oh. I didn't ask. Try not to talk about it . Well he doesn't talk about it. I'm waiting for him. I told Sheila that. That was, that was li like that day wasn't it? When we were, that Sunday when we all sat here waiting for somebody to say something. Well Everyone waited for Stuart to start and he wouldn't . That's right. He wouldn't, he wouldn't start the conversation off. said to him, say something. No, let them say something and nobody said anything at all. We, they went in the end. some tea Ann? There's some skimmed milk there. Semi-skimmed I should say. Are you gonna get something for Sunday Stuart? Yo you know, your It's for the the gannets. I'll sort out the food. ? Well I don't know. What do you, what are you gonna get? It's up to you, pork? Pork would be alright. Cheapest isn't it? Mm. big bit of pork, what do you, what have we had lately? Don't want chicken. Pork or beef. Whatever you like. How about that? Mm? And some veg. If you don't come here first that's what I'm say I'm saying. Cos you might not come here first might you? There you are. There you are. Did you hear that? Is that a weakish tea? Thank you dear. I've got this organized now, I'm alright. Look, see? Oh yeah, that's nice. Be alright won't it? Do you think it will? Yeah it's a nice jumper. It's Big. Big isn't it? It is quite big, but then Too big for him Ann? Well, it don't matter does it? I'd rather have it too big than than skimpy on him. be lovely and warm. Oh it will be warm. You ain't kidding. Mm Eh? Lovely and warm won't it? Yeah. She begrudges you every little bit of that. It's mine. She does, doesn't she? Her head goes up and down every time you put a forkful in. Yes. I get fed up with her at tea time at night. Cos she, and then she gets f , she get's cross. I give her a clump, you know. And she starts to miaow eeeeeeeh. Little monkey she is. You know last night it was funny I watched the telly. I don't know what time it was. Thanks Ann. It was about eleven o'clock, you know? Time for bed. Thought well I had this fire on so, I gets up to go through and make myself a l you know a drink before going to bed and I put my 'jamas on and dressing gown. And she was on the beanbag. When I get up, go through to get, when I get back On your chair already . Thought you'd gone. Yeah. Yeah. She she she mistimed it last night. All gone puss, look. She she mistimed it last night Ann. She thought I had gone. Gone. But I hadn't. But she was on this chair so when I came back cos she, I sat over there. She looked at me. What you doing sitting over there? So that's Time you time you were in bed. So that, yeah. So that's where she spends the night. Sitting up she couldn't wait to get er, you know Ooh. I was getting a bit late so she she couldn't wait. Mhm. Aren't you crafty isn't she? Take your knife darling Yeah it's clean and I've got dirty fingers. Is it? Ah. I'm sorry. Er Have you had enough now? Yeah, lovely. I should have made you something really shouldn't I? No. Oh it won't hurt him for once. You don't often have it do you? Very, very rare. Yeah. We don't have many chips at all really. We used to have it, when was it? Used to be, I think it was a Friday night sometimes it it erm, you know? Get er I'm not a great one for chips and and fish No. I mean I like, if I do fish usually I, I do it myself. Yeah well I do. I like it, it's best isn't it? Yeah. I like fish. No I do. I like to do it, there's very few fish that I don't like. I love fish. And the only trouble is the only trouble is with the fish you get up there, you don't get enough of it. No. It's all batter. It's all batter. Which annoys me. You know? I, I mean when you buy fish And it's not cheap. No. It's not a cheap meal. I mean you can make a a proper meal for what you Yeah. pay for fish and chips really. That's right. Yeah. Mm. You can get a decent bit of fish can't you? Occasionally it's just handy isn't it? Well yeah. It's gone gone twelve o'clock. By the time we got here and started cooking something it would be rushing to get it eaten so. Yeah. Go on then. In you go. Do you think you'll be working weekend? I doubt it. Not the way things are You doubt it? at the moment. Oh. It's so quiet. Is it? Oh dear. Done half of tom half of today's work last night. Eh? We did some of today's Half of today's work last night. You haven't have you? Oh you're not gonna be laid off are you? Oh god that'd be terrible. And you've just bought a house. Never never known ever to be laid off in five years. No, I think it's just I think they plan well according er to John yesterday they planned it this way. They planned it this way? How And it was quiet and it it's quiet. The they haven't taken the orders for this week and so they can next week it will get busier. So that we're all caught up ready for the christmas rush. That's what he said. Oh I see. They didn't plan a big order book these few weeks before christmas so that everything could get caught up and we're all You're all ready. all straight ready for er Yeah I see. extra orders the week before christmas. Yeah I see. Cos I said to him I've never known it as slack as this in, in the few weeks before christmas. He said oh this year it was planned like that. They've done this deliberately so that you can Yeah. Yeah. Well that's alright then. Cos other years we've been two days behind with orders you know and Have you? rushing about and everybody working all hours god sends and Yeah, yeah. and he said it was planned for this lull beforehand. Oh well, that's alright then. See what more money they want out of him he'll scream. Or cry. Is he, is he getting I don't know. upset already? You'll have to get used to signing your n n name on ch Oh shut up. That's an interesting conversation. Isn't it? Mouthful of biscuit. You're having biscuits is he? How about Ann? You haven't offered her one. He knows I wouldn't have one. There you ares, that's it. I'm all ready just to do a few more look Ann. Just a, just a dear Mr thank you very much for That's the wool I've got left. That's all. Good heavens. And you said you didn't have, you had loads of wool left . Surprising isn't it? That, that and then that bit there. That's all the wool I've got. That's only just gonna do it isn't it? Yeah. That's what I thought, I thought oh my god. Oh, is there gonna be enough ? And I thought yeah. just about, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. I mean I, oh By the time you Oh yeah I've had do the neck and cast off. Yeah. There's only just gonna be enough. Yeah. Just to say we've er So that's worked out very well. You you didn't, you bought one less didn't you? Mm. What's that ? Oh you're not telling us. Not telling us. I told you! I read it to you. You didn't! He's a cheeky It said what? Give it to Ann. It's private so You let Ann read it. It's just bumph basically. Just saying you have put Put in an offer for this house. You've agreed to buy this place. Your this is something something something Yeah well you keep that Ann. We hope Keep all these bits of paper because you're really, I mean We hope it goes satisfactorily You want, you want a file. Have you got one of these file things? No, we could do with one to keep everything together cos contracts and that you have Do you want one? keep safe and solicitor's letters and that. Do you want one? There might be one in the desk or out in the, in the there used to be . Let us see now if there's something you could keep them in. You don't want a ring-pull, ring one, you know. You where are you then? Are you there, you being good boys? So it's now sold subject to contract? That's what it'll have on it. Nobody else can have a look at it now. No, that's what they put on them now. Nobody else can have a look. Can't they? I thought there was still time to have a look at it just in case it falls through. I don't think that, they can't put a better offer in can they? When it's sold subject to contract. Well I dunno, but I mean They can't gazump you at the last minute cos it makes But I mean if that goes if that goes through if that falls through somebody might be interested and and somebody might erm I dunno. Like you say, probably they put subject to contract on and Here you are I got it Ann. Have that. I've I've gotta find that's usually what they write on them isn't it? Sold subject to contract don't they? Here you are It erm you can have that. I'll, I'll probably find Yeah. Well that will keep everything together. you a better one but Sunday. No that's fine. Mm cos you've got to keep all the bits and pieces together. Yes you do. You do It just says thank you for your you have applied to par apply for this house subject to contract and that's it. You're subject to contract now then? Yeah. Like I say that's what they will put on the thing isn't it? Sold subject to contract. Contract yeah. It's a matter of, what what are you waiting for now? To see if you've got the mortgage? No. You've got it? You've got the mortgage? As far as I know. You have. You don't need a Well he said a telephone call will just will tell him that won't he? Oh. If you come in Monday the tel You don't, you don't a telephone call will tell you whether you've the papers won't be drawn up but they will be able to tell him on through the phone whether it's okay. You don't need to have a medical? No. Doubt it. I think , he had to give his doctors how long and what illnesses Yeah but I just wondered he might need a medical. Dunno. Doubt it. You doubt it? Don't see any reason why I should not that they've had nothing wrong He's had no illnesses or I've had nothing wrong with me. I don't suffer from anything. I know, I know but that's not the point. You know, they you the you might have to get in touch with. Well we give his name didn't we? I mean really anybody can say anything if you don't, if they don't look into it. No that's I could say I've never had an illness in me life and whatever can't I? Anybody could s That's right. Yes I think they'd have to do, they will do. Cos otherwise you could say anything couldn't you? Yeah, course you can. Course you can. You know I mean anybody could say anything. I could say no I've never had an illness. I mean it wouldn't be the truth but you, if they didn't look into it you could say it couldn't you? That's right. And no doubt some people who would try that kind of thing isn't there? Oh yeah. Yeah. If they think it spoils their chances. Although does your, does your health Yeah because this is a pension mortgage you see. Yes. Yeah. You might have to have a medical. But you don't think For the pension purpose, for the pension plan a medical is not needed. That is, doesn't matter. Oh well. Oh. The only thing that I might need a medical for is my thirty thousand pound life insurance. Oh. Well, that's what I mean. I mean it's the same kind of thing isn't it? That's the, I won't need, if if I just did the pension You can bump him off now you know, from the fifth of January cos you get thirty thousand quid if you bump him off. Do we? You do. Oh well I won't, if y You're his beneficiary. If you put the glass, yeah I'll So once he's paid the first payment by the fifth of January . If you, if you do the bumping off Ann if you do the bumping off Ha we'll share it? Yeah. We'll go fifty fifty, how about that? Yeah. Alright. You're you're you're the beneficiary of his er hi hi his f thirty thousand pound. Yeah, alright. Fair enough. You do the bumping off and I'll We'll go shares we'll have a I'll have to see if I can get some banana skins put on the stairs. Bahamas. How about the Baha what do you fancy the best, You you wouldn't mother! No mother! Bahamas or or Australia, we could go to Australia. Yeah, we could go via Bahamas couldn't we? Mother. Yeah. They go that way around. Mother. Yeah we'll go . Cruise. Mother What ? Can I just can I just intervene here and Via New York. You know Can I just we could stop off at er at erm Yeah. at Hawaii can I just intervene here just a little bit because Shut up, we're booking our holiday. Shut up. if if if I'm bumped off that thirty thousand pounds go off to, goes to pay the mortgage. Yeah, well then we could sell the flat. Oh well we'll flog the f flat then. So we'd still have the money. Wouldn't we? Well you'd have to sell the flat then. Oh well Yeah but I mean we'd have a a flat without any any mortgage. It would be completely owned by your mum. So therefore she could do what she wanted with it. Yeah but I you you put me down as as as er next of kin you see You can name he said, who do you wish to name? Yeah. And he put your name down. I mean it doesn't say But it has to be your parents. No, it can be anybody I suppose, couldn't it? Yeah I suppose it could. I don't know what He put your, he he just put your, you down and that was it. Oh thank you very much. Oh well, definitely So that's it. Mm. Bahamas, yes. Hawaii yes. Yeah we'll go that way round. Mm. To Australia . Visit to Australia cos we might as well have a long cruise . What, yeah yeah. Mm. Better watch your step next time you drink whisky That's what few things on the stairs that's what er that's what you used to say er er er er you should never ever be worth more dead than alive. It's dangerous . He used to tell me that! Didn't you? Yeah he used to always say that. You n don't ever get yourself erm what do you call it? Worth more I'm worth more dead than alive. We all are aren't we? Most people are if they've got property aren't they? Eh? Yeah. Yeah I'm worth more dead than alive. Never mind. Well I hope I hope you're gonna be very happy. And I hope you've done the right Yeah, we are Here you are. That's all I I'm hoping I hope you that Stuart's done the right thing. It's him that's signed it. Well why? Why shouldn't he? Well He's done it with you, you're, he's got he's got you with him. Yeah. Hasn't he? It's not just him Ann. Well at least he knows with this m mortgage and that, he knows what it's all about. It's not like one of us going in and not Yeah. understanding and just signing papers. Yeah. At least he knows and he What you're doing. questions and he, he understands it all. Yeah. Which a lot of people would, say they go and sit down there and they say blah blah blah sign here and It's not fair but that is what happens. It's what happens because you don't understand all the No. terms and the things they use. You don't know what they're on about. No you don't. I mean even today he'd made a mistake on that thing and you spotted it where I wouldn't have done. Oh my god. He must be He didn't take tax relief off. Cos Stuart will get tax relief and he hadn't put that down. But Stuart noticed it straight away. I is he much cop, this bloke? I think I mean, it's something, a pension mortgage is something that doesn't crop up every day. No, not many peo you've got I don't know why. They don't know how to cope with it. I don't know why it doesn't crop up because it's cheaper than an ordinary one, so why it doesn't Because they don't want yeah well you you'd better tell your mates at work that. Why it doesn't I don't know. I don't understand that. And not only does Is it cheaper than an ordinary one? Well it is as mu it's it's worked out a few pounds cheaper. It can it can be yeah. It can But not only that at the end he's also, as well as the house he's getting a pension as well instead of just the house. Well that's what I mean. That's what I mean. You get a pe just an ordinary pension, thing, you know mortgage. You don't get a pension at the end of it. You're gonna get a pension as well. Well that's it. Well that's not bad. Well er I'd never heard of it. I'd never heard of it. Not only that you see alright the mortgage rates might go up but I mean if you're working your wages are gonna go up Stuart. Aren't they? You'll have a pay rise and and you're gonna still be paying s you know? So as the years go past Pay an average amount of your wage, whatever. As the years go past I mean if the wages go up as they have done, you know, regularly your mortgage is gonna gonna gonna be smaller. Yeah that's that's what happens with people now. Yeah. People who are paying seventy eighty pound a month mortgage who've had them for years and then Years. That's right. And the same thing will happen to you, see. And then you'll be pleased. Yeah. You've started. I mean I know it's hard to start with. Isn't it? It is difficult. But we've got all that side sorted out haven't we? It's difficult. I mean we paid eight qui , eight pound a month Er er and that was a hell of a lot of money. Yeah well that's it, if your wages are only eight quid a week if you're paying a month's wa That's right. one week of your wages out it's We were. I remember that. Halifax Building Society. Used to, I used to have to pay it. has to come out of his bank. Every month. It'll just be took automatically Yeah well they didn't have them in these days Ann. out of your bank, won't it? Direct debit. His money his money will be gone and we'll live on ours, mine. So I mean it's just the same whatever isn't it? That's it. You can survive. Oh yeah we'll be alright. As I say if they took my wages into consideration they would have let us buy next door even. Yes. They would. I mean it would have been a hell of a lot of I think nice as this next door here. Well it would have been a hell of a lot of money. How about that one across the way? Well that's it you see. But if if I'd have, if we'd have gone joint we'd have had enough Wouldn't you, if if if if you had Ann if you had the choice of these two what would you rather have? Seat-y belt on Stuart. better put her seat-y belt on then hadn't she? In case mister police-y man decides to stop us and say why haven't you put your seat-y belt on Mrs M Mrs woman? Sorry, sir. It's your responsibility to ensure that your passengers have got their safety belt on. Cos that would be nice wouldn't it? To be fined twelve quid for not having a safety belt on and on top of the ninety quid and the forty quid and one thing and another. but show you Pat 's house if you like. Would you like to see Pat 's house? Okay. Show you Pat's house. If you look to your left coming into the the junction say I presume, I don't know whether, they may even have moved now. See that one, oh you see the one where the trees are? Yeah. And the front wall that sort of set back one? Yeah. That's Pat you can see it just there, look Yeah oh the one with the that's Pat 's house. That's if he still live there as I say. Should think they've moved by now. That's where he used to live anyway. Pat's wife and daughter are erm they call Mrs and Mrs . WI or something like that. Women it may have been Women's Institute Guild or something or I dunno. Townwomen's Guild. Townswomen's Guild, yeah. Something like that anyway. It may, she may have been associated with WI, I dunno. Used to Did he know you? Pat? Yeah. Oh. In a w I kn I do know of him I don't know him to But he, did he know who you were? Yes. Oh yeah, I think so. Yeah exactly. But when I walked in Or your dad or your when I walked in I, I said you know I said Mr we meet, we meet again I said. He said ah, Stuart isn't it? Oh, well. I said yes. Thought oh that that's fair enough isn't it? Yes. Where shall we park today? We'll back up to the fence today shall we? If you wish. . How's that? Right, yeah. Is that near enough? Yep. Yep? Yep that's Is there one for Ann or not? There is, yes. very sharp frost tonight. blooming cold Think it's supposed to be going to be a cold more tomorrow. Aha, Well that's what the weather forecast was. Was it? pinched it this morning. Paul's cast offs. Yes yeah That is for That's my bum warmer . Put this on . look naked. Why not? Cause a stir if nothing else wouldn't it? Cause a stir! Stood there naked dishing the overalls out. Everybody would be going home, feeling sick. Bloody feel sick Alright dear? I've now got there's now in the bank, after I've paid me poll tax and paid me , yeah. paid me poll tax, paid me s search fee and got a little bit of cash out for readies and s , there's now at this moment in time, there's four hundred and fifty pound in there. And there will be another hundred and twenty go in today so that's six hundred and six hundred and seventy in there at the moment. So there's a few hundred in the building society What do you mean, crossed fingers? That's what there is and It's not gonna come up to any more than anything . That's what I was sa , that's what's in there at the moment. I thought I'm making you destitute aren't I? Like me . I've got three hundred and We'll we'll be starving in our garret together darling . And a few hundred in the building society. And I've still got my unit trust thing but I know it's gone down. I don't want to touch it if I'll leave and leave it if I can. It, no, I mean that was always my plan if ever you need the money Okay alright. Hallo Mr . Hallo Stuart. How are you? I was alright till I see you. Cheeky bugger. I was gonna be nice to you today and all. Yeah as I say, that unit trust thing I was I know it's not the safest investment but it never was the safest investment. It was a at the time it was a I'd got the money and it was a bit of a speculation. But unfortunately it's not quite worked out to plan. But I mean if If it, if if I mean even with the market being depressed there's still gonna be eight hundred pounds in there. So it's that's mak but that's mak making a loss. I mean I'd rather leave it if I can until it does Yeah if we absolutely If we're absolutely desperate then We'll have to do it. Is it hard getting them out? I don't know, or I can't remember. Few few days. Phone them up phone them up. Find out what You don't want to make a loss if you don't have to. find out what the price is and if the price is you know whatever then you take them out. Just say right I'll cash, take cash and you and they will send you a cheque in the post more or less. But as I say, yeah unfortun unfortunately I mean if I'd left it where it was erm would have, it would have been better. So say if we have to we have to. You know, I'd rather wait until you know till Until it's taken out. till then. That's right. Until the market picks up again and I mean it's not a good investment is it? Speculative. yeah yeah but the when I was It's alright when I was advising Well well well that's it. when I was advising people on unit trust things it was always the price of your units may rise and, as well as fall. Er I mean there's safer investments. That's what I meant. Oh yeah I mean it was If you wanted to at the time, I mean it it was It didn't matter so much to you. Didn't matter so much at that particular time. And the market looked as though it was gonna be quite buoyant. I wish I'd have took them out a long while ago when they were higher. Mm invested them somewhere else. Well yeah, but like you say you don't know do you? No. That's one of the things that you don't know about. Say I don't know what the latest price is on them, but They're being rude up that end. Are they? They're being rude. No! And you wouldn't be? No no. No as if you would! Yeah. Tell Hilary what I said . Are you alright my darling? I'm alright. Okay. You alright me darling? Hallo Freda. Oh it looked like a dice you was chucking in there. No, me Enough room for Julie on the end? Yeah. She's only small. Well I laughed at Ann last night. she's, she might be small but her bum's big. What did you call that erm Tony? Oh he's fucking horrible. He's a pig. Told him he's a ignorant pig . I couldn't help it, I was so angry with him. Ooh He's taking the piss out of me pulling a rack through. He wouldn't get out the bloody way. Laughed his head off and He pushed me the other night. I fucking pushed him back. I said you're just you're just a ignorant pig. Shut your bloody But he is. mouth or . but I'm glad he didn't come And when I walked away I thought, oh fancy saying that but I'd said it, it was too bloody late. Yeah, bet you felt better I bet. It was too late, I'd said it. Yeah. But he is. I think he's fucking horrible. I thought oh Ann you shouldn't say things like that to people but it just come out and you're a bloody ignorant pig and I'll I said belt you one if you don't shut your gob. They don't have hooks and crooks here but they have fucking wife beaters. I know I shouldn't have said it but soon as it come out me mouth I don't like I thought but when it come out me mouth, as soon as I said it I thought you shouldn't speak to people to people like that but I'd said it hadn't I? I'd done it. Well he I tell you you thrilled It was too late. It had come out and I'd said it's what I felt at the minute. Taking the piss and w he wouldn't get out the bloody way and I'm trying to get through with that rack. He, he roared out the factory the other night. That's what it was. He roared out the factory. And I told him. I said your limit is, is five or ten miles an hour. Like that. And he didn't like it. So, when I was at, I always go to the fucking front, I don't care who it is. Age before beauty I say. Aye that is nippy . and the boys always save me a place. Anyway he fucking pushed me and I fucking pushed him. Fucking lucky I never had a knife in me hand weren't it? Well I could have quite easily hit him last night. Yeah, now I I really could I said to him if you don't shut your bloody gob I'll belt you one . I think he's fucking horrible. He went oh she's getting angry! He's meant to be good that good he weren't fucking no good last night keeping up with us was he? What, on trussing? No well he's oh on racking? Well he's never done it before. Well he That's why. won't he? Yeah. I wouldn't help him! if I can fucking do it. No and I wouldn't I wouldn't. I'd sooner the boys did at the end. Maxine said oh he's struggling up there look. He's got a basket full there's bloody chickens all over. I said let him bloody get on with it. I'm not helping him. No. I don't like him Ann. I'm sorry. I don't. I admitted I don't like him. Looks fucking sly when you just Yeah. There's just something about him that you just ugh. Mm I really hollered at him. Mm. Shut your bloody gob otherwise I'll shut it . I said you're an ignorant pig, that's all you are. You should have heard them all. Whoa go on Ann, go on! It's horrible isn't it? No, it's horrible when you don't like somebody isn't it? You can't Yeah I know. can't help it. You ca I can't hel I'd I right from the day he walked in I didn't like him. When he poked, when he poked me in me arm and said Some people you do hate yeah . Going to the bog. I said to I said cos he'd they'd been talking about me. Cos she heard my name mentioned when they was talking Yeah. you know . getting, what do you call it say you been talking about me you know. It's only cos I fucking told him about it the other night. Yeah. They're not supposed to charge out this fucking factory. No. he roared his fucking back wheels were hitting the muck up, you know hitting Yeah. the things up so you know Gravel and, yeah going, yeah. Yeah. And I told him. I said erm there's a time limit I said. Five or ten mile, if had fucking he would have gone, he didn't Maggie with it. Do you remember when he come, yeah Fuck me he made her get Went after her didn't he? Fucking ran out the office He ran out the office to er screech about it when we used to park down here. Come racing out the bloody office. Really bawled them out. He said it's not a bloody dirt track. Mm. He said there's a speed limit, and there's people walking round you could kill bloody somebody. He went barmy to him didn't he? Mm. Mm. Oh I remember that one. That was Mac's wife. Her on the night one I know it was somebody that he come chasing at, chasing after. Yeah Mac's wife. Yeah, what's her name? She used to be . I know who you mean. J erm Julie. Julie. Yeah. His face was scarlet. But he came ra racing out the office after her when he heard car go roaring past the office. Yeah. Cos the office was there then weren't it? Yeah, yeah. looks . Doesn't she? Mm. Oh dear. Count the time Well I wonder what delights await us today. They can't get much mate. I They've done all today's racking. You did it all last night did you? Apart from the drums and thighs I know. Well look at it last night all be done. The trussing up was covered, the other place was covered. Mm. I mean people don't want the fucking chicken. We've had enough. We want something else for christmas. Mm. I mean like old age pensioners, you know they will buy the piece like that but Mm. not fucking Only be drumsticks now for for parties won't it Jean? Yeah. They don't want much else. Say I know say I know the order was high for today on drums. I mean even the drums for us mate. I'm, and fucking fillet and all. Yeah done. Done, put them in now. Oh fucking hands er hurt. You know what it is, holding Yeah gripping them, them drums. you're holding like that and then I'm cutting there Yeah. and here then oh there, then there oh. Four fucking cuts I do. Oh I'd better go We ain't got Maureen today so we'll have to find somebody in place of her. Where's Maureen gone? On holiday. Is she? Oh look at that, that's been . What the hell's like a or something There's something inside the rib isn't there? Hi John. No, I say I'm not sitting here much longer. I'm shaking here. Don't you want your overall Jean? Ann. Can you remember when we went on our first aid course? When? Yeah. No. No I can't. Should think coming up, must be a year now mustn't it? Yeah I should think it is that. No I can't remember exactly what month. I'm going in cos I'm cold. Under the, just under the . What's the time anyway? I haven't a clue. Right coming in? Thanks very much. Okay, we looked last time at the development of the Kuomintang and nationalist China after the nineteen twenty five twenty seven revolution and I said then that the defeat of that revolution had a profound affect on the character of the Kuomintang and the character of the nationalist China over which it presided. Exactly the same is true of the Chinese Communist Party. The Chinese Communist Party is totally transformed, I think transformed out of all recognition, and becomes a completely different kind of political organization as a result of what happens in nineteen twenty five to seven. And to understand that change I want to go back to the beginning and just to trace what has happened to the Chinese Communist Party since it was formed in nineteen twenty one when it had a mere I hope everybody can see that, it's not very large today and I don't think I can any better than that In nineteen twenty one when it was first founded, it had a mere fifty seven members and it didn't grow very much for a number of years. By the middle of nineteen twenty three there were only three hundred members of the Party. By the middle of nineteen twenty five only a thousand members. Then, of course, the revolution bro broke out, originally in Shanghai with the main and thirtieth movement, subsequently spreading to Canton and Hong Kong and other major er cities in the south and east of China. And then the Communist Party began to grow very dramatically. By the end of the first year of revolution they had ten thousand members, so they erm increased in size ten times in the space of about six months. By the middle of nineteen twenty six they had thirty thousand members and then they peaked in the early part of nineteen twenty seven with sixty thousand members. Now that is actually a very large organization indeed given th the size of the Chinese working class. Something like, think I've got it here, yes, something like fifty percent class of the members are actually industrial workers. The rest of the members are intellectuals er and students primarily. Now that means that at the peak, the Communist Party has a working class membership of something like thirty thousand plus, which is one in every hundred industrial workers in China at this time. That is a pretty substantial er party given that the Communist Party is essentially a party of working class militants, of shop stewards, of trade union organizers and so on. That means it has really very substantial influence indeed inside the Chinese working class. It controls many trade unions including some of the big confederations, most notably the Shanghai General Labour Union, a sort of T U C really, erm for, don't know whether it would bear much relation to the modern T U C in Britain, the erm, the sort of confederation uniting all of the unions in Shanghai, controlled by the Communist Party. And so were many other major unions and union confederations. This Party is then very substantially er destroyed, not completely, but very largely destroyed by the nineteen twenty seven coup and the repression which follows it. There are large numbers of executions, lots of people are er taken off to prison, many people in fear and despair and demoralization drop out of the Communist Party, it's particularly dangerous to be a Communist Party member in the major cities where the repression is most intense and where the security forces er are most numerous. But the destruction of the old Communist Party is completed by two policies that are adopted by the Communists themselves, both a response to the defeat they have suffered in nineteen twenty seven. First of all there is the adoption by the Communist Party in the years nineteen twenty seven to nineteen thirty of an ultra-left policy. A policy which consists essentially of insisting that no major setback has been suffered, that the revolutionary movement is still going forward, that there will be new major revolutionary outbreaks in the immediate future. And in pursuit of that perspective, that outlook the Communist Party launched a series of what can only be described as ad adventurist er attacks on the new Kuomintang authorities. The autumn harvest uprisings, for example, in the autumn of nineteen twenty seven which consisted of attempts to lead peasant risings erm in various parts of the countryside, particularly in the area er around here er Kiang See and so on where the peasant associations had been particularly strong. Such as the Canton commune where down here in er Canton, perhaps the second major industrial city in China, the communists rose in revolt erm and attempted to establish erm a kind of red base in the city of Canton. But they rose on their own with virtually no support at all amongst ordinary workers, it was essentially a rising carried out exclusively by the Communist Party members themselves. Such as the attack which they mounted from the countryside of the city of Chang Sha which is also in this er in the same sort of area where the old er where the Communist Party had had its main strength. All of these military adventures are crushed very very quickly, usually in a matter of days. Large numbers of the Communist Party members who have risen almost in complete isolation against overwhelming odds, large numbers of them are actually killed in the fighting, many more of them are arrested and executed and in this way, the destruction of the Communist Party, particularly in the major cities, is to a very large extent completed by their own mistakes. Instead of retreating instead of going underground instead of accepting that the situation had become extremely difficult and it was necessary to try and rebuild their organization and their influence gradually over a period of time, they committed their shattered forces to further battles and more or less completed er their destruction. Why? Well for two reasons. One, I think, because the Communist Party in China itself was completely disorientated by defeat. Right up until the coup in nineteen twenty seven they had been following a policy dictated by Moscow, dictated by Stalin which told them form alliances with the Kuomintang, work with the Kuomintang, first of all trust Chiang Kai-shek, then when Chiang Kai-shek turned on them they were told to trust the left Kuomintang leaders who were based in Wo Han in the middle Yangtze valleys, and then they turned on them a policy, in other words, that had proved absolutely disastrous. Then confronted with the enormity of the defeat which the Party had suffered, many members were completely i incapable of understanding er what had gone on, were disoriented by the defeat they had suffered and were open to the argument the strategy was right all along, the revolution is still going forward, there are going to be new uprisings by the masses and so on and so forth. A complete disorientation among the ordinary membership. But into this situation there is the intervention again of Moscow, of Stalin. Stalin's policy has changed dramatically. Up until nineteen twenty seven he's been saying work with the Kuomintang, work with the bourgeois nationalists, work with the parties to your right. At the end of the nineteen twenties the policy from Moscow, not just to the Chinese Communist Party but actually to communist parties all over the world swings dramatically to the left and Stalin is arguing that there's, there are going to be revolutionary explosions all over the world the Communist Party must forge its own path, it must put itself at the head of these struggles, it must give a lead to the masses by launching insurrections and so on and so forth. Why has the policy changed? It's changed partly because Stalin's er strategy in China has been shown to be a disaster and Stalin is trying to cover his tracks and most effective way of protecting himself against the criticism and the unpopularity which is likely to come from the failure is by insisting that the strategy was right all along and the revolution is about to triumph. He's also changing tack because in nineteen twenty nine, in Russia, they begin the collectivization of agriculture, the destruction of the Kulaks, the rich peasants, the adoption of the policy of forced industrialization. To justify this and Stalin presents it as a revolutionary me measure, as a shift to the left, as the creation of socialism, to justify it er Stalin presents the argument that the whole world is moving forward to a new stage on the road to socialism, it's all a lot of nonsense but the ideological needs of the regime in Russia are determining the advice which is being given to er various communist parties. The second er factor which really, by the communists' own decision, completed the destruction of their organization in the cities and towns of er south and east China was the decision in the early nineteen thirties by large numbers of surviving communist militants to leave the cover, to er leave the cities and the towns where the repression was severe, where it was very difficult to avoid being picked up er by the police to escape that, by fleeing into the countryside, very often into particularly backward and inaccessible areas of the countryside, where they would be safe from the security forces and where they hoped they could begin to create a new base among the peasantry. So not only do we see a physical flight to the countryside but also a change in political outlook. An orientation now among many of these displaced militants no longer on the working class but on the peasantry and on developing the struggle of the peasantry as a way of creating a base, a new base, er for the Communist Party in the countryside. Now at this point I want to sort of take a break from looking at the development of the Communist Party to looking briefly at the peasantry because although the peasantry have been in the background for much of the time, we haven't actually looked in any detail, so far, at the condition of the peasantry in China. And their role is now absolutely crucial, crucial to the development of a new strategy by the communists and to the revolution of nineteen forty six to forty nine. The poverty of the Chinese peasantry was, I mean really for us i it's, it's very difficult to imagine how appalling conditions were. There had been, for one thing, enormous population growth I'll put the figures up for you The population had roughly trebled er between seventeen hundred and eighteen fifty and then, in the period we're primarily concerned with here, the hundred years from eighteen fifty to nineteen fifty have increased from four hundred and thirty million up to five hundred and eighty million. Now that meant that there was massively increasing pressure on China's land, and there was growing parcelization of the land and what was happening was that peasant families would of very often er produce two or three sons Could I just ask a question about that? What was the reason for the growth between eighteen hundred and eighteen fifty because they hadn't had sort of mass industrialization industrialization which had caused population growth in other countries so was there any particular reason why there's should have trebled in that time? I think that's a good question. And what's the answer? Yes, I mean I don't think anybody really knows. Erm there are various er theories to explain it erm and I mean usually, if there is a significant population increase, and that is a very very dramatic increase indeed, it is associated with increases in productivity. And yet quite clearly there have been no significant increases in the productivity of Chinese agriculture and certainly no large scale industrialization. So why the population should have been growing on this scale I think is er a question that we can't answer very easily. Could it be that the statistics in seventeen hundred were wrong? That er well the kind of census I suspect not in seventeen hundred. erm and what makes me suspect not is that Chine Chinese record keeping for many many centuries had been very thorough of course because it's the basis of the imperial taxation system, so my guess is that the figures are probably fairly reliable. Were they receiving er more produce from their outlying parts of empire? You know,w was there more agricultural er produce coming in to make er their food supply better? Well t I mean to the extent that that is happening, that there is a development of trade on the sort of, you know, with the periphery of the empire and with erm areas outside the empire, and that was certainly happening in this period, I don't see why it should have a significant impact on the peasant population because there isn't really any evidence that it's, in a sense, trickling down and enriching the peasantry. There's no er evidence of a significant increase in the peasants' standard of living quite the reverse in this period. So, again, it may be a factor but it's probably not the most significant So by, by the peasantry we, they, they represent purely the people in the outlying agricultural areas? The peasantry are excluded from the cities? Mm. Er and that was just primarily to the growth of the peasantry? Yes. Mm. Yes. You would expect i i if it was because of an improvement in their standard of living, however slight, you would actually of expected the population from eighteen fifty to nineteen fifty to have increased even more wouldn't you? If, if, if you could explain it by that because presumably their standard of living did change between eighteen fifty Yes and nineteen fifty so you would've expected to see the same sort of increase. Yes. Cos I mean presumably they weren't between eighteen fifty and nineteen fifty they weren't practising excessive birth control to Yes to keep it under. Yeah that's right. Is this roughly over the same area? Is this Yes roughly over the same area? yes, yes yes, the area's not changed. I was this this contradicts now, I was wondering whether more areas became accessible between seventeen hundred and eighteen fifty for some reason or other, therefore they could you know er enrol more people, and count more people. Well I mean not, not in the sense that the Chi the Chinese empire is, is actually growing but possibly in the sense that within Chinese territory marginal land that hasn't previously been used for agriculture is being brought into use. But that in itself er certainly won't increase No erm productivity, quite the opposite. I mean marginal land tends to be brought into use, the less productive land, precisely when there is a pre the pressure Yes but there could of population. but there could be more people. It could support more people, yes yes, absolutely but the, but the level at which those people will exist will be that much lower, presumably, than the level of people who are in the more productive, the more fertile er parts of the countryside which are already in use. Could it have been the age old story of having more children to keep you when you get old? If life was becoming harder. what they say now they have a lot of children Yes to look after them when they get old. Yes. I, I think that's again going to be part of it because that is certainly I mean a major reason why er a lot of peasant societies have large families, but we'd still have to try and explain why it was that in this period, presumably so very much more of those children were surviving than had been the case earlier. Now usually we would explain that sort of things in terms of improved sanitation, improvements in the standard of living and so on, but that's not really happening, there's no evidence for that in the Chinese countryside in this period. Would the flight from the towns to the countryside in the early thirties of made any difference? You did say that er the communists Yeah it's very small numbers of people. Pardon? It's very small numbers of people. I mean given the size of China I mean th there'd be No I wondered how they sustained, were sustained in the countryside if vast numbers were moving from the towns into the impoverished countryside. We're talking about tens of thousands, really. It's a problem isn't it? Yes. I mean it is, I mean how you explain it is erm by no means straightforward. But what we, what is, is unquestionably true is that it does mean that there is growing parceliza parcelization of ple of peasant plots which means that the average peasant now has a much smaller plot of land in which to try and support himself and his family than was the case earlier in Chinese history. There is also a continuing technological backwardness I think I, I probably mentioned right at the outset that in nineteen fifty India had six times as many tractors per acre in cultivation as China did. Now India was an extremely poor country in nineteen fifty and still is, yet it had six times as many tractors per agricultural acre as China. Britain incidentally had two thousand times as, as many but I mean that's the sort of contrast which perhaps you would expect. It's even the case that the iron plough, apparently, was comparatively rare in peasant China at this time. Most people were still using wooden ploughs er which, not only di is it much more difficult to cut the sod with a er wooden plough, but it also cuts only in to about half the depth of an iron plough so you can't sort of turn the soil over to anything like the same extent. There are of course virtually no chemical fertilizers. There aren't even animal fertilizers through most of the Chinese countryside because er animals haven't replaced human labour power, human labour power being so cheap and numerous, generally speaking. Human e excrement, believe it or not, was the most common form of fertilizer in the Chinese countryside. So the technological backwardness means that, and the over population, means that the soil is, is losing its richness and there's absolutely no way of restoring it artificially by ploughing deeply and turning up er new soil or by re-enriching it as it were by the use of artificial or natural fertilizers. And then, on top of this, there are major natural disasters. Again a reflection of technological backwardness because natural disasters can be controlled with a sufficient investment of resources China isn't able to do that, there are plagues of locusts, there is widespread flooding er there are also, by contrast, periods of severe drought, particularly up in the North China Plain which is at the best of times erm a semi-arid region. And then there's the class structure. Here's the peasants The gentry made up three percent of the population in the countryside. The rich peasants made up another seven percent I have to check to see I've got the figure's right the middle peasants, twenty percent the poor peasants seventy percent. A rich peasant is a peasant who works his own land but will employ some wage labour as well because he has a large enough plot to be able to, to need to do that. A middle peasant is somebody who is more or less entirely self sufficient, he doesn't hire any labour but nor does he have to work for anybody else, his plot is big enough for him to be able to support himself and his family. A poor peasant, who made up seventy percent of the population, is a peasant who doesn't have a plot big enough to support himself and his family. He may be completely landless, or it may be that his plot isn't big enough and he has to spend part of his time, or part of his family has to spend part of their time, working for somebody else to get in some extra money or possibly renting land from somebody else. Now the distribution of land was that these two groups making up ten percent of the Chinese countryside owned fifty percent of the land. The middle peasants owned twenty five percent which meant that the, the poor peasants, making up seventy percent owned just twenty five percent of the land. So on top of the appalling poverty of Chinese rural life there is a very unequal distribution of land which means that some people are desperately poor compared with others. And then in addition to that if you were a poor peasant who had to hire land from somebody else, you would of course pay rent and in the nineteen thirties it's been estimated that the average rent paid by a poor peasant farming somebody else's land was forty five percent of the harvest. So virtually half of what you produced would go to the landlord. And then everybody would also pay taxes. Taxes to the government, taxes which were particularly high in this period, because it's the period of the war lords, the period of the civil wars, the period of the war between the Kuomintang and the Communist Party, high levels of war taxation throughout this period. Unsurprisingly very many peasants got into debt. It's been estimated again that almost half of all Chinese peasants were in debt to the money lenders. The money lenders would very often be the gentry, or the rich peasants, but there were also merchants who specialized in lending money, loan sharks. So er many would have, in addition to paying their rent and their tax, also regular interest payments to be made. And finally, people er were subject to various forms of forced labour, most obviously of course conscription into the armed forces but other kinds of forced labour as well repairing the irrigation streams, digging dykes and, and so on and so forth. I just want to read three anecdotes which, and I mean I've given you sort of odd statistics and the advantage of anecdotes is that they actually put flesh on the bones I think, and they really give you a sense of what it meant to be er a peasant in China in the nineteen thirties. A poor middle aged peasant couple of Cum Sien in Honan province were dependent for their subsistence on the wages of their only son who worked in a coal mine. When the couple, who were in their forties,unexpecte unexpectedly had a second son, the conscription officers informed them that their older son would have to serve in the army since the law exempted only one son per family. The wife pleaded with them, explained that they'd starve to death if the older boy left. When the local authorities dismissed her pleas she went home and beat her baby on the ground until it was dead . Another one The peasants up and down the valley lived and died in their special fashion. The father of one family died. Since his wife had been failing and the family was very poor, they decided not to bury him right away. Perhaps the old woman would die too before really warm weather came and the old man began to smell when they could save by burying both with one funeral. The old lady agreed. So they stored the coffin in their darkest, coldest room, the old woman's sick room, and piled stones on its lid to keep the dogs out . Last one this is the these are reports incidentally by er European doctors working in China at the time Another desperate case that we treated for nothing was that of a young man who looked like a skeleton. One would have said there was nothing but skin on his bones. His family was so poor that they'd been obliged to sell him. He was accordingly sent to a family that had no sons. When six years later a son was finally born, his new family simply threw him out and the poverty is so great in the region that one month spent begging and homeless brought him to death's door . The extent of the poverty I think is very very difficult for us to imagine. Now this had already resulted, between nineteen twenty five and twenty seven, in a spontaneous explosion across much of the Chinese countryside. Essentially what we will see between nineteen forty six and nineteen forty nine is a controlled explosion when the Chinese Communist Party quite systematically and deliberately harnesses this vast pool of discontented humanity and uses it to sweep away the Kuomintang regime. That's essentially what we see happen. Which brings us back to the Communist Party itself. What I've called the Maoist turn, the turn in, in programme, the turn in strategy which is lead by er Mao Tse-tung, and we have finally got erm to the stage in Chinese history where Mao Tse-tung's role becomes crucially important. The s he is one of these numerous Communist Party militants who makes the move from the cities and the towns into the countryside in the late nineteen twenties early nineteen thirties. The strategy which he argues for in the early nineteen thirties, and it subsequently becomes the dominant strategy of the Party and Mao becomes the er recognized leader of the Communist Party er really at the beginning of the second half of the nineteen thirties, nineteen thirty five nineteen thirty six, around that time it has become the dominant position. His strategy consists of essentially three things. Reliance first of all, not on a working class mass base but on a peasant mass base. Secondly further to that, the reliance on a strategy of guerilla warfare in place of the strategy er of strikes, mass strikes, armed insurrection in the cities and the towns. And thirdly increasing emphasis, not on the socialist politics of the Communist Party in the nineteen twenties, but on the development of a nationalist ideology which could appeal to all classes in Chinese society who were interested in getting the Japanese out and who were angered by the Kuomintang government's inability to stand up to the Japanese. These were the three crucial elements which gives rise to this central question in all discussions really of the Chinese revolution which is was this Marxism? Was this a Chinese adaptation of er the doctrine of Karl Marx, a signification of it, if you like, a Chinese version with the essential ideas, principles, programme and so on of Marxism retained or was it in effect an abandonment of Marxism? Whatever the Chinese leaders said, whatever Mao Tse-Tung said, did it amount to a complete abandonment of what Karl Marx had been arguing for, what er position which Lenin claimed to stand in in Russia and so on. The answer to that question I think is that it was not Marxism. And it was not Marxism for a number of reasons and this is almost certainly going to be very controversial so I hope that it will feed discussion in the, in the second half. It's not Marxism because what we actually have now in a Maoist Communist Party, as it emerges in the course of the nineteen thirties, is a leadership composed not of socialist working class militants but of intellectuals whose prime motivation is that they are modernizing nationalists. People who want to see a strong, unified, modern, industrial China created which is able to defend its territorial integrity, its independence and stand up for itself er in the world. That's the prime motivation of the people who constitute the leadership of the Party. Come on, hello, ready? Oh about Right, well ten minutes. erm we don't want to not get our tea and coffee No but I mean he hasn't supposed to come and , you know not really. Do you want, I mean No but they do go at half past Yes three I think. I think Yes. that's when their time's up you see. Ah I've got about, you see I've about ten minutes Well five to ten minutes, I mean we might actually miss our tea and coffee so shall I finish off I wouldn't mind shall I finish off after the break? Yes. Mm well we'll have to we'll have to start Right. When, when shall we start again? Ten minutes. Ten minutes. Right, ten past then. Ten past. Well we don't, we have our tea before we come and when we go home. it's a better cup of tea. Yes it's I certainly need one Oh yes Yes Sorry? You've got an easy day then? If it's been cancelled. Well er very easy You ? Yes. Right. What I was erm doing was trying to identify the three er characteristics of the er Maoist Communist Party as it emerged towards the end of the nineteen thirties which really disqualifies it, I think, from the label Marxist, means that it's a completely different type of organization to what the Chinese Communist Party had been in the nineteen twenties. I talked about the leadership being essentially a leadership of modernizing nationalist intellectuals. The rank and file, by contrast, is composed of peasants, a mass membership is composed of peasants. Primarily peasant guerilla fighters, people who were fighting in the Red Army, and it draws its mass support, the Party members draw their mass support, er from the peasants in the areas where they establish their authority. And this rank and file membership and the wider group of supporters are subject to leadership from above, there is no real inner party democracy in the Maoist Communist Party. Policy is decided by the leadership and there are various er mechanisms for passing erm the leadership's ideas on to the rank and file, various systems of, of education, some might say indoctrination and so on, but no real inner party er democracy, no real er involvement in the decision making processes by this mass membership of ordinary peasants. And thirdly the objective was no longer what Marx had acclaimed the objective of er a party following his leadership should be, no longer the objective which Lenin, in the Russian Revolution, claimed was the objective for the Russian Bolshevik Party not a workers' revolution which would then spread and become international, worldwide. Quite clearly the objective and you can reading between the lines of the propaganda which pours out er of the Chinese Communist Party for the late thirties onwards, reading between the lines you can see it the objective is essentially Chinese state power, achieving power and using power to build er a national er unified, modern state. So the impact of nineteen twenty five to seven on the Communist Party and on the revolution which it made in nineteen forty nine is just as great as the impact had been on the Kuomintang and nationalist China. Let me just sum it up. What had been essentially a workers' party, fifty percent of the membership workers based predominantly in the big cities and towns becomes a party of intellectuals and peasants. Intellectuals er and professional revolutionaries in the leadership, a mass membership of peasants. A party which had been essentially urban becomes a party of the rural hinterland and not just erm the, the countryside as a whole but particularly, in the nineteen thirties at any rate, the most backward parts of the Chinese countryside, the most inaccessible parts, the least developed parts of the countryside. A party that had based er its strategy on strikes and urban armed insurrections becomes a party of rural guerilla insurgency, a completely different kind of strategy for winning power. A party whose main base of support had been the, the unions and the er union confederations which grew up in industrial cities like Shanghai becomes a party whose main power base is its own Red Army, its own army of peasant guerillas which it itself has created. And, finally, a party which had seen itself as being part of a process of international socialist revolution, linked with the Russian revolution of nineteen seventeen, becomes a party which is primarily a party of Chinese nationalism. Now if th this side, the list on this side erm represents the sort of essential characteristics of a Marxist political party, and if that's a reasonable er summary, and people might want to take issue with it argue that these aren't the essential characteristics, that there are other essential characteristics or one other important er characteristic which I've ignored, but if these are, down this side, the essential characteristics of a Marxist party then Mao's Communist Party in the late nineteen thirties cannot, it seems to me, by any stretch of the imagination qualify. The Chinese Communist Party of the late nineteen thirties is a completely different kind of political organization to what had existed in mid nineteen twenties. Is that a good thing? Good question. Perhaps we can talk about that. Would you call Mao himself one of the intellectuals? Yes in the sense that although he comes from a peasant background originally, it's a rich peasant background and he himself had er a reasonable education and subsequently erm built on the education that he was given becoming in part self-taught. I would certainly classify Mao as an intellectual. Yes. Shall we arrange ourselves Yes. Finished? Well how long was the er the Russian revolution a Marxist revolution? It's another good question. I mean the Marxism was the motivation just as it was for the Chinese but er I don't think the Russian revolution remained Marxist revolution for very long But the achievement of revolution did make it possible for the success of revolution to be seen by the Chinese because it had already been achieved. That's what gave them their I, I, yes I mean I, I their drive you know I don't want to sort of wade in in response to that, I want other people to er Are you going to sit in the centre? Are you going to sit in the centre Everybody finished with this? this part of a general truism that erm Marx banned communism Yes, yes that's alright. of the industrial countries. Countries which actually adopted it were found to er in this way. As I say I'm not going to respond immediately cos I think other people ought to. Well I'd like to say to that that er no Marx didn't specifically erm erm look to Britain or er Germany, only in the sense that they, at the time most advanced and he, he reckoned that er ideas of communism would spread only in the most advanced countries who in course of time would influence other countries. But initially there had to be a real, genuine erm working class revolution and therefore Marx looked first to England because we were the most advanced and we'd been in the business of running capitalism for s so much longer than any other country in the world. What we need is a definition of Marxism of course. I know. Oh dear Well one that we can at least discuss as to whether this was Marxism or not. But that's precisely the problem because erm the definition which I would give to it is necessarily a definition which would preclude er regarding Mao's party as a Marxist party but then other people would say that my definition was er itself controversial. Yes well if you tell us what your definition I would s I would, I would say it is that i it is the theory and the practise of international working class revolution. And I would say that all of those elements have to be there. It is a political theory but it's also an attempt to act on that political theory so it's practise as well. It's the idea that you can't have socialism in one country, it has to be international it's the idea that it has to be based on the working class because the working class is the agent of socialism and it has to be by revolution because the ruling class won't give up its power and wealth voluntarily. I would say all of those five elements have to be in a definition of what Marx meant by Marxism. I would agree with that but I'll take it further to say that, and if you read Marx you'd find this very clear, what he meant ultimately that the working class would achieve is a kind of a society where there was a common ownership of the means of life. No ruling class, no working class, just people producing wealth as they produced it, consuming it that would be an efficient society where nobody would go hungry, there would be no unemployment, no poverty and er it's the ultimate objective of er the human race. But that isn't, if we want to survive, that is what we must achieve, the common ownership of the means to survive. And it also means er er obviously no classes, therefore no wages or salaries, no money, no banks just people and the material resources of the earth. But you've got you've got to have leaders haven't you? And here they had the intellectuals as the leaders which they had got to have. I mean after all, the working class wouldn't on their own would they? Yes If they had if they had the well because nobody came forward from the working class through it, it was the intellectuals that started it and gathered the You're wrong you see not even working class. No Surely once you have leaders then the whole things fall down Of course it does. Yeah. be because leaders want power and they get power and so they want more power. That's it, absolutely right. But then i i nothing will work without leaders. Mm see Marx, Marx didn't Marx did not anticipate leaders. What he did say to the working class is this that the emancipation of working class must be the work of the working class itself. That means an educated working class, understanding the needs of socialism or communism and setting about the task of achieving it by getting rid of capitalism and introducing socialism, or communism. Which means the same thing to me. What happened what happened really in, in Russia and China is er that they had a sort of captive lower class who'd been used to a very authoritarian kind of rule so they were able to impose communism from above. Because there doesn't seem to have been ever any er revolution that was initiated by working classes. Victor Hugo says there will be no revolution until the middle classes man the barricades er which they're beginning to do now. But who are the middle classes? Who are they? You see Pass. here again here again you see in Marx, Marx says that more and more, and he said this in his day, more and more is society spreading into two classes on the one hand the ruling class, the owners of the means of life, on the other hand the r vast majority of people today, it's ninety percent of the population, who don't own the means of l of life but ten percent do. And more and more said Marx, society's splitting into these two groups. There can be no middle class with even those who are highly paid, they are highly paid members of the working class, they're not middle class. But after all Marx himself was ma er middle class. No he wasn't. No he wasn't. Yes but working class aspire to be middle class, and very frequently represent themselves as middle class Well, yeah and, and middle class er wish to achieve upper class. It's the lower class that tends to stay where it is because it doesn't get the representation. Because middle class will push the lower class down and be supported by the upper class. Sounds So they have to have It sounds like It sounds like sounds, it sounds Yeah well it is Ronnie . a nonsense to me for this reason, that there is in society the payers of wages and the receivers of wages. That's how society's divided. We, you know, there are buyers and sellers and that's how you divide it. Mm. You can't get away from that. That's capitalism and you, so long as you've got buyers and sellers you get this antagonism of interest between buyers and sellers. What would you have then?? Obviously the interests of buyers and sellers are diametrically opposed to one another. Mm well how do you get away from that then? That's this society. I I think that when we discuss Marxism erm we tend, I mean looked at the Yes. philosophical side of Marxism which is very interesting and there's a lot of very deep thoughts but what we've been given your definition, is what I'd say is the political strategy that Marx said er was necessary to achieve the philosophical ends. Now you've er, you've defined what you think is, what you consider to be Marxism which is the political aim, the strategy and of course within your definition er it's so easy to er make a definition which suits your premise that er the Chinese Party was not Marxist. I agree with you but it's it's very easily done isn't it? Mm. If you want to prove a point, well you give the answer first and say this is what erm what's it all about. However I, I er I can't see that er what happened with the C C P falls within either Harold's definition or your definition of Marxism. Perhaps you're both wrong, I don't know. You did say that the Communist Party to state power. Erm weren't they then following Stalin's ? You see he moved away from communism as That's right yeah, yeah. what we, you know,pure communism and just er adopted state power. And it seems to me that China was just doing the same as St Stalin did. In, in fact Mao himself said it I've got it here in, in, in black and white, Mao said what we are after is the abolition of feudal ties, to get rid of feudalism. Not, not getting rid of capitalism, get rid of feudalism. Yes. the Chinese Communist Pa the, the new Chinese Community Party, did it declare itself to be Marxist? Yes. Mm. You see I mean er er and this generally, I mean ju just as when Stalin claimed to be communist, that claim has been accepted by the great majority of people writing about what was happening in Russia in the West and in just the same way the Chinese leadership er after nineteen forty nine claimed to be communist, claimed to be standing in the tradition of Marx and that claim, generally speaking, has been accepted. But there are all sorts of other claims that people make that we are very much more critical of. When Margaret Thatcher says the N H S is safe in her hands we we, well at least we, we give that some thought, we don't just accept it because she said it No and I mean there hasn't been, I think, that kind of critical investigation of the claims that have been made by successive leaderships in Russia and China and other states claiming to be communist Mm. That's right. which we would normally subject the claims of political leaders to. Mm. See it's, it's the question of a big lie isn't it? If you keep on saying a thing long enough communist , everybody believes you even though it's the biggest lie on earth. It's a complete myth. There's never been any communism in Russia communism in China. No but it, it, it What, what has happened is partially worked in Russia No it didn't they'd introduced capitalism into China Into it, yeah. they'd introduced capitalism into Russia Yes. Yes. But they at least did a half half of it. good. I mean don't forget don't forget don't forget when everybody was wearing their sickles and hammers in this country they had millionaires in Russia. Now can you Yes. credit millionaires in a co so-called communist country? That's right. Because it's human nature people want to get better things. But aren't, aren't changes aren't these changes er in Russia and in China forced upon them to a degree by circumstances, by the fact that the outside world immediately withdraws and opposes a rising of the people as a whole against the established government er I mean we've seen in recent times with Iran and so on haven't we? Er public opinion didn't welcome the overthrow of of the Shah, it was immediately horrified and everyone gathered together to er try and bring about a re- establishment of the Shah. That's right. Er I mean they had a family in er Russia didn't they? I mean that must have what it c er millions died in that and er the same thing happened in China. And all of that makes it easier for those who are leading or in control to change the policies and get acceptance. Yes, but not to achieve communism No oh no because the cry of the Soviets was at the time, in nineteen seventeen, the cry of the Soviets was not for communism or socialism but their cry, and they had it inscribed on their banners, peace land and bread, that's what they had there, peace, land and bread, not communism. But er communism and politics are like religion they don't necessarily deliver the goods. They an interpretation don't they? Which, which they Well sell to the public. you see to put it back to Marx it's the working class that have got to deliver the goods. It's in, within their power now, look at the working class ruling now. They're on erm local councils and members of the working class sit on their local councils. The working class can take over at any time when they wish, when they have the knowledge, when they are in the majority. Well they're always in the majority aren't they? Well of course And Southend returns a Tory council Yeah year a well But they don't have to do that do they? They don't have But it's them they do it Because if one stands out then they lose what they've got, they lose their job. Once they ever reach that position I don't see that at all. and the it's perfectly it's all about it er er on television at the moment isn't it? I mean lunch time we were hearing how, because they stood up for what was right, it was over the killing of soldiers and that, this man job and actually he more or less said that he was something wrong with his head didn't he? Yes he was put into a mental institution. mental institution and having to give up his job because once they get that position if they speak out, in any way, for instance the Civil Service you can't speak out at all even if you can see something that you know is wrong Well there is nothing that you can do about it well and even if you want to erm you have to side with I think that's entirely wrong. Entirely wrong Yes. because I've known civil servants who've been er members of my organization, I belong to the Socialist Party of Great Britain, the only socialist party in this country. We stand for Yes. communism as propagated by Marx in his day Yes. and we have had in our ranks civil servants. Yes but then they're but nevertheless they couldn't I mean they're university professors. publish anything however But they do publish things. I can bring along the statements of these people who've said all sorts of things, you can you know put down at once but they're not put down. There's a man, Steve , stands up in Hyde Park every Sunday er talking about communism and socialism. Mm. Erm I w I was going to say, going back to China, erm they're a bit frightened of China now in, in what was the Soviet Union I heard the other day, were th were they a little bit anti China's type of communism before er the Soviet Union fell or were they all, all pals together? In the nineteen fifties They recognized the difference in their types of communism. Well it's certainly true that there were ideological differences but whether those were the reason for the split or not is a er is a, is a moot question and I suspect not. I suspect that ideological differences with the Russians and the Chinese denouncing each other as counter- revolutionaries were sort of a cover really for the fact there were, there were real conflicts of interest between the Chinese and the Russians which we will, will, we will look at. But I, I mean through the nineteen fifties there is a reasonable measure of co-operation between the Russians and the Chinese and then from the beginning of the nineteen sixties and onwards there is conflict between Russia and China. And I mean there has been up until fairly recently, it's only in the last few years that relations have tended to get a bit better. Mm. You were saying about erm the West not, not questioning Russian and China and, you know, accepting that they were communist. Di did that not because erm as capitalist countries we would perceive anything communist as being the enemy and so it, it's actually in our interests to, to, to lump them all together rather than question because That's right. if you question you might actually find that there's some good thing or, or at least the people might find that there's some good things in it so it's then er it becomes more of a threat then to the capitalist world That's that's right. than by just dumping them all together and Right. accepting it. Or you could say erm that if communism can be equated with secret police and the Gulag Archipelago That's right. and forced labour schemes and so on and so forth, then you've destroyed, or you've very seriously undermined the appeal Mm of radical ideas in the West. Now I would suggest that that is the prime motivation Yes. But the communists in Russia were er th all this er Gulag Arli Archipelago and secret police have been in existence in Russia for hundreds of years before the com er communists came in. It was because the people were used to that kind of society with a secret police and er government inspectors and sending people out to Siberia and putting Oh yes. Under the Tsar your intellectuals in prison haven't they? I mean the society's didn't change all that much as far as the ordinary people were concerned. But we've changed too here, we've changed since the, the last century haven't we? Look at the way they treated people years ago. Yes but in Russia they they had this kind of framework before communism began Well that's true Mm mm but it wasn't exclusive to Russia of course in the land Oh no I of the Tsars the Tsars dominated, of course they did. They sent Yes I know, I don't dis people to prison, they sent them into exile. We know they ill treated them, but so they did here. But I mean in Russia they, they were use yes I know but Mm they weren't, didn't do this in this century so much here peasants did they? Well eighteen twenty four Yes but that's not this century. But, but I think er you know in, in Russia er they always had this kind of authoritarian regime. People always were sent to Siberia, before the communists came in. So it, it didn't really Well that's right Yeah alright make much change to the ordinary people. What do others think about that? I mean do, do people think that if, if That's a point if there is a sort authoritarian political tradition Mm that that could be something which is quite difficult to, to break. Yes China was even more so in China where Yeah they were used to an authoritarian er regime. I think it would be very relevant in China. And that's why I think erm the West is making an enormous mistake in thinking that eastern European countries can suddenly become cos they never have been and I can't see any democratic now. I think demo democracy . Is there any de democracy anywhere? Anywhere? Well There are some places were you, I mean all democracy means is that you, you have a vote Yes anything else. Yes, yes, but you would pro see what they do after Yes mm. Have they taken any notice of you? But at least you've got the chance haven't you? At least That's, that's right you've got the chance whereas in these countries they haven't, if you haven't got a democracy. You haven't got political democracy and you can't have democracy er er er as long as er some people have the control of other other people. Some, some people possess the means of product production and, and can do what they like to many other people, they're the people But isn't it the ignorance of the people because the people are ignorant and they actually don't know what they're voting for Ah that's it, yeah yes that's it, yes. which is the main thing. They don't know what they're voting for. Yeah yeah that's right. but still, it still comes to my point, there is no democracy Well yes no but But we, we can we can differentiate between two, the two different sides still I think. I mean they they're all er some, some countries which we call demo democracies erm aren't the same as we are, they're Yes well it's And there, there are shades of democracy, I mean Sweden's far more democratic than Italy and so on. Yeah. Mm. Er but they're still different from countries like Rumania and Russia and so on Yes mm which have never had a an inkling of democracy Yes that's right. there's no likelihood of getting the same sort of regime that we've got which I know isn't democratic in that sense But when we want to teach a democracy to er to er to a different er the countries of the east, when it's it's a big humbug I think you can't teach them Yes we can't teach them much. Er what are we teaching them now? Market forces. Er er er market forces everywhere er you you'll see now it's all for the market forces and if you have market forces a few on the top and all the rest at the bottom. Mm it's happened already. mansions being built in Russia now. Yes, yes it is er Doesn't it take a long time to change people's attitude against authority. I mean I go back to Mm I mean that was horrible police state Mm. but now and they have dispensed with that a hundred years later and more than a hundred years. So it takes a long time think more egalitarian. cos it'd have to take a long time. no no Yes most probably no it's up to us. It doesn't have to take a long time, it's up to us here and now. yes but I mean people don't give up what they have, that's human nature. I'm actually very dubious about this idea indeed because I, I don't think that anybody actually likes being in a situation where they simply have to do what they're told No and they're not allowed to question anything That's right. and they're not allowed to disagree and answer back and argue as, I don't think anybody likes Nobody likes being in that situation. People don't think great, this is the, this is the ideal sort of government a really strong ruler who can tell me what to do so I know where I stand and so on. And there are moments in history when when when, when that sort of system suddenly gets blown away. I mean I think that's really what we've seen in eastern Europe Yes in sort of Mm. the revolutions of nineteen eighty nine. And I don't think everybody's going around in eastern Europe thinking oh what we need is to get back to the old Stalinist system where you, you know, you had someone telling you what to do all the time. Far from it. I think we do have to explain the, the re-establishment of authoritarian forms of government more carefully, we can't just assume that there's a kind of almost instinctive hankering after it among the mass of the population because I'm just not convinced by that at all. There have to be, there are particular reasons why er after revolutionary upheavals you very often get authoritarian forms of government and I would say in Russia and i i in a sense it's linked with Harold's question as well about erm the Chinese following a Stalinist model of economic reconstruction think what you've actually got in Russia is not this sort of mass hankering after authoritarianism but you've got a situation where the bureaucracy that controls a completely devastated, backward economy, which is what they've actually got in the early nineteen twenties, where the working class democracy has just disappeared really with, with the, with the economic collapse, with the factories shutting down, with all of the old communist party militants going into the Red Army or getting sucked into the state bureaucracy with that sort of complete collapse really, economically and socially and politically, you've got a situation where the central priority of the leadership is to build up Russian industry as quickly as possible so that Russia has got the armed forces it needs Mm. to defend itself against foreign That's right. foreign aggression. And that's the central politic so the i ideas of socialism and, you know, international working class revolution goes out of the window That's right. because there's er there's an absolute desperate er anxiety that Russia's not gonna be able to defend itself unless it industrializes very very quickly, it's But surely that gives rise to the authoritarianism. surely that also suits the, the people at the bottom because i be because the, the government is, is producing work in effect it means that the people at the bottom have jobs and, and can earn money and, and so they're, they're lot actually improves. I mean th they, they might don't necessarily see why it's improving and what's behind it, but their lot must improve if there's industrialization and weapons and things to be made, that they they have jobs and presumably have more money than they had before when they were just sort of not doing very much. In the long term there must be improvement as Russia industrializes, but in the short term erm presumably we see the development of, of a, of a sort of Stalinist totalitarianism precisely because the screws are really being turned on people as much work is being got out of them as possible in order to accumulate capital and to build up basic industries and, and, and to divert, I mean not just into heavy industries, but to divert er resources into arms production as well. But what they're not doing is spending loads of money on hospitals and houses and schools and raising the general living standards, they're spending it all on heavy industry and armaments. Which is why I think the government is authoritarian, why you have secret police and gulags and so on, because they can't afford to tolerate large numbers of people saying this isn't what the revolution was supposed to be about. Mm. But Is it because of the interference with one country to another then? If they were perhaps left on their own to sort out their own problems Yeah. wouldn't they do it better? They may look if they looked inward instead of outward. But then they've always got the threat of er er er I mean at the moment there really isn't that threat is there? Unless you'd er think of America, but they've got so much problems there that they've got to look within themselves now haven't they? Otherwise there's going to be chaos there if they don't stop now and look within themselves instead of all of this interfering in other countries which they've done in the past. America has got to do that, Russia is broken up so it's lesser than it is, in fact it's going down, if only they'd look, but you see they can't do it now without outside help. Without the outside help they can't build up there country. So it seems everybody's got their head against a brick wall at the moment because of in fact the whole world seems worse than it's ever been. I don't suppose it is, but it seems like that to us because we know more about it now, we see it on television. Maybe we, we're all more Well it ought to be said that the world today, in this year nineteen ninety two, is a different place from what it was a hundred years ago. Yes. Compared with then we're now a village, not a worldwide any more. We can lift the telephone and speak to people in Australia. The communications are such that it's like living in a village. So therefore we've got to look at it that way. We want to be a big village, we want to be human beings living in a human society Yes, yes of course. Well of course I do know that the, the only answer to it, of course, is for the christian way but it's not what it, that's going to happen. But that is the only answer, the christian way. That is not the only, if it's not gonna happen it's not the only answer is it? But it is er there's not going to be any other answer. That's, that is a con that is a contradiction. But there isn't going to be any other answer because that is the only answer. But, but it isn't in, in, in that people have never lived er according to er christian philosophy or indeed No any other religious philosophy, or even any secular philosophy. I mean No, no. I mean any of us really could sit down and draw up a list of er of things where, if we, you know, a list of rules if e war for a very small subscription ornot many groups other and if everybody stuck by them, everything would be wonderful Mm but then of course the reality is that that No has never happened and isn't happening now and it's No it's never going to happen. We have to Mm actually look at the real social forces that cause people to act er in violation of all of those very desirable philosophical principles. I'd like to take up your point about is it that erm after revolution and so on and break downs, governments er countries, say like Russian, China er some of these eastern European countries, they're motivation goes to building their country up to resist occupation. Erm that seems to be the main motivation but I don't think it is, personally, er it might be what is suggested to them because if they look like going socialist again, then it is not what the majority of the capitalist wants, or the major powers want. They haven't been fighting all these years to get rid of communism to see it re-emerge again so you, the confusion continues, as it is in Russia, and then you insinuate the idea that, with the breakdown of social order and so on, you must have a strong man, you must have strong arms and that's where your Hitlers and your Mussolinis and all these people come through in that little vacuum in between of disorder. It's a dangerous time. But I don't think it's the will of the people, it's sold to them. Whereas the revolution usually comes from the straw that broke the camel's back. They've been revolting for years under the surface and then some thing happens that make it possible course the continued revolutions have gone on through the world and because they've seen the success of a revolution in Russia although we didn't know the full facts of it in the West, it was, it did establish a huge area in the wake of a revolution. How could it, how could it be a success when it collapsed, how could it be a success? I mean communism Ooh no no no I said the success of the revolution which swept away See communism, communism the existing force that was there. I'm not saying that it achieved er a great victory Well it wasn't a success was it? but it, it completely changed the scene and established an entirely different system. Not a good one, but it established it. Can, can I go back to er a question which , you asked was it a good thing Mm that there was this change of policy in the Chinese Communist Party. Mm. What do people think about it? Chinese Communist Party. That they,th they Yes that you said it er Pat thought it seemed a good thing, the way you were saying it I wasn't meaning to suggest it was either good or bad I was to report it. Well no, no I know but I thought well that doesn't seem to well that's better than what they had. There was no change in policy Mao himself said he was there to do away with feudalism. I've got it here in black and white Yes. that was his object, to do away with feud not to introduce socialism do away with feudalism. Do away with, yes of course. Which is what they done. Mm. Well it was a good idea in as much as it returned to the people's wishes didn't it? People had been staging revolutions without a great deal of success over the years and it was seventy percent of the people who were disadvantaged wasn't it? Well if they weren't represented in the Kuomintang were they? But didn't the er the new Communist Party leadership simply canalize the, the discontent and use it to achieve their own political objectives rather than that discontent itself forming the basis of revolutionary change. I mean I, I rather suspect it was the, the former it wasn't th the driving force was not to be the needs of the mass of the population, but the needs of the mass of the population could be used, could be harnessed to build the Red Army Mm which would be capable of sweeping away the Kuomintang and putting into power the leadership of the Chinese Communist Party. Yeah. And I suppose, I mean if I was to answer the question was it a good thing I would have to say no. I mean I would have to say that that, that turn by the Chinese Communist Party meant that it was a turn away from the idea that it was the, the ordinary people themselves who, who should shape their own destiny. I think the Communist Party actually adhered to that idea in the nineteen twenties. nineteen twenties Didn't it have to survive first though? It had to first of all survive which is why it went on the long march wasn't it? And unless Yes it could expand, unless it could gather strength and produce an army er it was on the road to annihilation which was their the course of erm Chiang Kai-Shek's wasn't it? Which persisted even through the march and so on. They had to first of all get a base from which to achieve, unfortunately of course gaining the power and the growth of the power no doubt the ideals were corrupted and it became what you are su suggesting it did, it no longer represented the people. Became ideological. Yes well I I, I mean you erm you posed the question whether it was a good or bad thing, this change erm I can only the results of the change and what would have happened if the change had not taken place or try to er see what the change, it would seem to me that the alternative er would have been a continuance of er possibly erm a kind of Kuomintang erm type of policy which encouraged erm other nationalities to develop China as beginning to happen now. Whether that would have been, at that time, for the benefit of the mass of the Chinese people we're talking about erm I don't think I, I rather think that the er turn that Mao took probably in the long run, in the long term, was to the benefit of the mass of people erm the peasantry, the workers in China because I think the alternative would have been erm international exploitation. Which is what we've got now. You're ge you're beginning to get it now, yes. Erm No we've had it all the time. Well I, I'm not sure of, here again he's making another turn isn't he and er you're going back to as I say, what would probably have been the lesser of two evils. Erm but erm er I, I mean there's been a double turn in, in fact. And what you're suggesting Harold is that er he's going back now to er er the erm er the idea of the, I'd suggest that o w w what would have been the alternative was erm international exploitation. I'm more interested in the, the kind of s so called philosophical erm ideas that have been raised, as whether this, you know, these kind of ideas of a, a kind of ideal state are just possible. I have my doubts erm in, in that erm certainly not within one nation erm I, I agree with you entirely that it's contradictory to Marxism in that erm what happened in erm with Mao was that erm he turned away from any internationalist socialist concept. But erm and that presumably one could say that in the same way as Stalin did but that erm Trotsky's idea was much nearer to Marx. But erm it's all very easy to say you can't have socialism or this ideal state, whatever you might like to call it, unless it's all er er you know kind of international er it's got to be, happen all over the world or it never will happen at all but erm first of all it's got to happen in your own country and it seems to me that we imagine that everybody, the mass of the people that we, we do that er we want this ideal state. And I doubt, as a result of the last general election, whether people want that kind of state. I think that the mass of the people, as far as I can see, want the state where they can er well economic climate in which they can make money for themselves and get on top. And I think this has been proved you know that ask when people have changed their minds and said I don't know, that this is what has happened in the last er ten to fifteen years erm and which makes me feel that once again I think that advances can only be evolutionary erm I think that erm, I don't know if you, anybody saw Joseph Conrad's erm spy story on the television? It finished up with one erm very relevant, relevant to this class, quotation erm can't remember the last part of it though, he was talking about the Indian, that he had a , talking about it and saying voodism catholism and then the next stage erm which I can't remember the word but in effect it meant co-operation and you can't get that it seems to me unless you have a, a change of vision, change in erm not just in society but in people because this is where it starts. And whether the erm the kind of ideology or the ideas are christian or Marxist erm you've got to wait till the overwhelming mass of the people see that truth before er it can be effective. Which is why But you don't I think that, unfortunately, with China erm you know the, the whole idea is going to collapse. It's not on the path to a utopia at all. Mm. Well you don't even get co-operation like that within a single family unit do you? No, no. So I think you're right, it's got to be a massive change for people. I think it'll come but, well, we're rather impatient I think when you look back over the past hundred years you see some massive erm changes which are quite unprecedented. Nobody could dream that, you know, things that are in existence today, a hundred years ago, you know it was, it seemed impossible. But people will probably only all co-operate when they are all threatened by the same external Yes. Yes so, so that everybody's threatened by the same thing so that lot of green, little green men landing somewhere The whole, the whole world today whole world is threatened with pollution. Don't you know that this planet is, don't you Yes but people shut their eyes to it. don't you know that this planet is running down, that time is short. We've gotta do something about it. We've got to, we've got to do something about it. Well that may be the answer That may be the answer. But at the moment people shut their eyes to it because You see there's every, every, there's every evidence to show there's every evidence to show that those who live by profits will never cure pollution. They will never er produce a healthy environment. But we've got to do it, us, people. We've got to see the damage and then do something about it. Yes but then you see Greenpeace is going, trying to do it and You're always there's very few of you here belong to it, I can't see your badges on, we haven't got ours on at the moment and a lot of people don't even believe in Greenpeace. If we put, all put our badges on we'd be weighed down. Because it's not practical. So it, it's not until something really happens Why don't they believe in it? Well maybe they're ignorant about, we've heard people say I don't believe in al any all of that, maybe they are the saviours of the world for all we know, the Greenpeace people. Maybe. We have advanced for a price What, what and we will not give up the good things in life for Greenpeace and for a clean environment But, but you won't you w I will, you won't because ah no What is, I mean what is being discussed it seems to me is, is a, is a dilemma that has been debated ever since people became interested in social change, Yeah Mm the possibility of deliberate, purposeful social improvement and I think it's much more straightforward than people generally suggest. The So do I. the, the, the implication is always erm that you've got to make some sort of choice between do we get the social change first, which gives rise to a different kind of people, better people, or do we first of all change the people so that they're capable of making a better world and of course it's a catch twenty two, isn't it? Mm The reality is the, the reality is both change together. That is actually what happens if you look at processes of social change in history That's right. that as peop that as a social crisis develops, people become interested in radical critical ideas and they start talking about how things can be improved. And the, the pressure for change builds up and as the changes begin to happen, new values, new attitudes become dominant which in turn affects how people see things so they become interested in yet greater changes. Now that's what actually happens, there's a there's a dialectical interaction between people's ideas about what society should be like and the changes that are actually going on around them. It's not chicken and egg it's two things interacting, that's how history actually operates. That's right. yo you're suggesting is what is happening now and so many of us he no he not just here but in population generally belong to all sorts of pressure groups erm whatever they may be like Greenpeace and many others erm really it's, it's a jolly hard slog, the point is that erm it the lid is on the kettle the whole time and it's only, the only way that people can get anything done is by joining these organizations erm but it's a very slow business erm but there's no other way of doing anything because you can't change what happens at the top. Everything is, is , whether it's pollution or anything else erm you can't, you can't change it . Er n nothing ever happens up there that's why people are so disillusioned with politics altogether. I think er everything is in the people's hands really, but people are so varied and so different aren't they? You speak to a person about one thing and they've got a totally opposite point of view from you and you think well I am surprised, with all that they've gone through and yet they you know, they don't see, people don't s think along the same lines. They think so totally different and there's got to be a reason for that. Is it to do with education? Is it to do with the newspapers? A lot of it's to do with newspapers. A lot of people don't care one way or the other as long as they're alright. Most people are quite happy if everything is fair, if things are fair they think well it's fair. But there's so much that isn't fair. And really everything is in the people's hands if only they knew it. But people are different and want different things out of life. Yes. Yes, but then there's got to be there's got to be But I mean people are very kind on the whole. Aren't they? Greenpeace have a meeting somewhere I'm sure everyone goes there by car. Yeah, exactly that is what I'm sort of Yes, yes, yes of course. Maybe there's no other way they can get there. If there was a proper, a bus system that you could nip on easily they would do that but all those That's right. things are taken away. I mean, yes Yes I mean there used to be a tram, trams running along the Southchurch Road Yes you could nip on there for a All of that's taken away from you. Yes. These things have been taken away from you. That's right. And people have to have cars By the, by the same token, you know I mean I, I never went in a car when I was a child. I was going to say that everyo ebs absolutely everyone is against war but not many people actually joined the United Nations after the war for a very small subscription or not many groups of people have many members in it, and of course because there were so few members in it, they a they went one particular way which a lot of people that had joined didn't agree with and so they came out of it. I it it's oh no, we don't want war, we're all against war, but nobody is prepared to bother actually to go to a meeting or, or pay a small subscription and, and then you w you could of had a very strong United Nations now the same as after the first world war, but it's the people that didn't do it. Isn't it the government rather than the people? The, the amount of money put into the United Nations by the governments Yes but it not by the people. it's also the individual isn't it? I mean if the if the individual sort of carried out UNICEF things and, and that sort of thing, they rely on the individual you've got a But there's there's, there's another pr sorry It's alright I was only gonna say I think you've got a er erm strong battle to wage against the sort of natural freedom of people Mm. Yes. and the fear of people for each other that that lot might take away what I've got sort of thing. And also I think, which is very strong and I think it does come out in, in the Chinese Communist Party, is the lust of power which can be even more dangerous when you convince yourself I'll do all you lot good but I can make you all members of the Communist Party, whether you want to be or not doesn't really matter, you know, it's gonna be for the good of the country so you fall in with this trap of assuming that you want is for their good so it's sort of a, a dangerous thing. I think it does happen in China, I think it happened in the early part of the Russian revolution before Stalin was and we had communism with . And I think these are very dangerous erm threads that run through the society of er you know, the, the international community where we, we live on this fear almost. We're frightened of what will happen and sometimes we have need to be frightened, you know, they are going to do very different things because they disagree violently with us. And that's why your idea that I think it does have to be a very gradual process where we learn to trust each other, we learn to live by our decisions that we make together rather than separate decisions. But I think there's a very strong argument Chinese revolution And, to a certain extent you can understand that people have to identify with something and the easiest thing to identify with is a king and a queen erm Chinese communist leaders of various sorts, Stalin even Karl Marx, you know, you can convince yourself that he had all the answers when of course, really, you must see these things as developing. And I think this is a very strong I think has to be taken into account whenever you're talking about history. Can I just say, do you think that erm there's a er within the last twenty years there's such a terrific change in society, like people who know other coun er other countries know each more through television That's right. That's right. and within the last say twenty five years there's been a dramatic change in the young people's way of thinking, maybe more of them have gone to university than they did the previous twenty five years and that there is such a difference now than there was that I mean for instance if there was a war there wouldn't, there would be far more conscientious objectors than there ever was before far more than erm young man saying no I'm going to fight for my country, be patriotic I don't think you would find, for instance, the youth of this country so patriotic as they was in the last war, your country needs you. And they would be a coward for not going to war. Well they wouldn't need them anyway. No. They wouldn't need them because of the, this technology and that that's but nevertheless they do ha they would be conscripted because they do have to have the ground troops of That's right. prove that this technology wasn't so great as one would have thought it was without the ground troops. But that, that's just one little part of it but and because there's been a lot of quite worldwide travel of young people, not perhaps on a massive scale, but at least the young people of each country are more thinking more of them Not only the young more of them, not only the young people, of course not, but I mean more of them, I know there always were some of more than there was before it has changed every value, even moral values and everything like that, have changed a lot the last twenty to thirty years. That's, that is But that's not sorry an element that could come into it. I was going to say that, that, John's point about evolution, it comes slowly because Yes in nineteen, nineteen forty Mm. they said exactly what you're saying, it wasn't the last twenty years it was No it was continuous through the century. I mean Yes. in nineteen forty older people were saying don't, don't go and, and volunteer and, and think what you're doing Well more so than they did in, in nineteen fourteen, it's Yes a gradual evolution. The world gets smaller. but I, you see mm now see I'm not, I'm really not convinced by that at all, I because I mean it's quite clear that right across Europe in nineteen thirty nine, nineteen forty, er there was a real sense of oh no, not again Yes. and it was because the generation whose sons were being sent to be slaughtered In the first world had gone through it themselves. And I'm, I'm sure that was the reason, there, I mean there are all sorts of er accounts of you know how people poured onto the streets waving their bloody flags in nineteen fourteen and die in the trenches and it didn't happen in thirty nine because remember how monstrous it was No that's that's what I'm saying I think that's the key thing in thirty nine forty and But now it's forty years yeah, exactly, and Give it another twenty years and there won't be people left who remember. er that's, and I and I'm thinking about the response to the Falklands and the Gulf. Yeah mm These, these were, these were comparatively small er wars, I mean the Falklands was an absolute I mean farce really, it wasn't a serious complicated and yet I, I've never heard anyone saying a word about the Gulf war. What a approv approving? I have ne I have never heard anybody saying that it was er not the right thing to do. Well I have. I stood amongst twenty thousand Ah but so did I and I did nothing but write during that time but I've never known and everything I've said about that is true, has turned out to be true. I stood amongst twenty thousand people It wasn't a war It wasn't a war, it was an attack. Yes and And it was a wicked cowardice thing that ever happened at the time virtually everybody and eventually it will all have to come out. at the time virtually everybody supported it, I mean Yes, they did. Yeah. Everybody supported it. I wrote to everybody going, in fact ev all over the world I should think all, everybody in this country because that is how I felt about it. I knew that it was the most wrong and wicked thing to do Yeah. and the last massacre that happened, which has never come out yet, will eventually have to come out, because there are soldiers now that are talking about it. The most coward and yet everybody you spoke to s s thought that was a good thing, because they believed everything they saw on television right until the girl that was the actress that cried on television and said he pulled the plugs out of the incubators for the babies, and she was an actress and yet that was head headline news. Yeah it was Headline news. So have you, have you have you now persuaded yourself that perhaps you're over optimistic about I mean cos you were suggesting that attitudes had changed Yes fundamentally I mean I No, I am appalled at people, I can't believe that people behave the w er take the attitude the way er but they do. I can't believe that people would take this attitude. I have gone through it Mm I have experienced That's right how people can behave. Mm. My husband was Jewish Yeah and suddenly I mean people lived for centuries there Mm suddenly I mean they were outcasts Yeah of every everybody threw them out, concentration camps and all that sort of thing, no? Although the majority of the people didn't know I believe that came out after the war, but people who were affected, they knew exactly that their son or husband was in Dachau Mm And people believe they would believe this country, although I'm very grateful to be here . Mm. We've just gone through Armistice Day and I was and it's always made, made me feel there's something a little bit wrong about Armistice, it seemed more of a glorification in the way Yeah it was presented. the first Yes time we've had men who have been in war talking about the horror of war Mm. Yeah. precede it and I thought that was a significant step forward. But we can see the horror now, we only need to look at television and Yugoslavia. Ah yes We see horror now. Yeah. Mm. We see it but we see it again and we see it again and it becomes less and less of an impact. But at a time like that when i it's devoted to the fallen in a war and men who were the heroes of the war say it was disgusting, you know, and and how they, they expressed themselves I thought was was a very very significant thing, it made a very very strong impression. And I think that people who will be watching those services and the preambles to it, I think it will make an impression. I don't know whether any young people would have been watching because I don't know There's whether they, they focus to it. Well I think yeah there's a muse th th there's a museum at Carne in Normandy, I don't know if anyone's been there, we went there last year, and it, it's a new museum, a memorial museum and that's the most moving place I've ever been because it's actually designed to show how awful war is and that it shouldn't happen again, it's not a museum glorifying war, it's a museum showing that, that it shouldn't happen, we shouldn't let it happen and there's a erm there's a great big case as you go in which has er a statement from every country that took part in the war, including Germany, and they're all there, they're all there together saying that you shouldn't you shouldn't let it happen and, and and I, I thought that was the sort o you know i i it was very impressive because i it wasn't glorifying anybody, it wasn't saying we won the war, you lost the war it was it was a, a coming together to say that it shouldn't happen. But you see er Mm don't think that's a new idea, I think we were all brought up on that idea. And sure I, I'm sure that the, the I mean th th the sentiment is more or less universal, I mean virtually everybody is opposed to war and yet again and again and again the leaders, who pay lip service to these ideas, launch another war but it's always a just war, this time it's always justified Mm yeah and they've got no alternative, otherwise we're gonna get walked all over. But it's only, it's only a few people that do it Oh yes it is. I mean are we all er er yes it is something wrong with all the people that allow a few people to do this? I mean it's such a very small people isn't it? Yeah yeah Why don't they put all the leaders of all the countries up in the air Yes, yes I always used to think that, why can't, why can't they push Mrs Thatcher John I think this, this is wh , I think this ought to be the last contribution. I'm trying to sort out in my mind what is the difference between these national wars er with er the use of violence and the kind of civil wars for social change er you can call it, or revolution, er involves er a civil war involves violence. Now you see I don't think that you can say I'm all against national war but, but you're in favour of a violent revolution Mm to change things for the good. Er I can't, you know, there seems to be an inconsistency in so many people who are against national wars but er would say that what we need is a revolutionary situation in order to change things for the better within society. Is there a difference? Well I think Not so violent as war surely? Oh I don't know. I was going to suggest that this is er, I mean I've made a note of this question, that we ought to return to it next time Yeah ready to go. this one's been brought back if anyone wanted to this is the book he was talking about that's been brought back if anyone wants it . No? Hello what can I do for you today? Er me birth pill and insurance Your insurance as well. There's that. Eh still the twenty five strength isn't it? Excuse me. I shouldn't have laid that carpet last night. It's loose catching the back of my throat? Now then which birth pis pills is Femulen. Femulen. No problems with it at all? No. What about your Betnovate, are you needing any? No, no. It comes and goes that doesn't it ? Aye. Aye, that's true, I mean it just Aye. just some days I'll see you and then two or three Aye and it's disappeared again. days and it's disappeared, yeah. So you've got, you know, that sheet. Right. Yes So there's there's s six five. Right number five is actually at the bottom of the Yeah pile you've got there. Sorry can I bring you . Yes please. Thank you. That five there? That's right. So that go that goes there then really does it? No. That five there There's another five five. No there's another five. This one . No not that five. For it's got forty seven at the bottom, is that the one, this one? That five. Right. That goes? Under the There yeah. Right got it . You're not gonna say anything are you? Let it be noted that J ,head of was actually in the room at the time of this meeting. Right. From what I can recall from last time we met, the purpose of the meeting is to actually pick up on the training program. And review where we got last time, and to plan ahead erm for the future. It's also part of the investing in people process, of putting together a flexible training plan which is one of our action targets, erm from that. Now what I've actually also got on the photocopy, and I think I've even got less sheets than than for this one I think I've only got three booklets. It's part of the the I I P I actually picked up, rather irritatingly retrospectively, erm some things from the tech, erm that actually take me through the various stages of I I P. So that erm the self assessment, erm number one, How to plan for the future, is just a business planning aspect of I I P. Three is the training programme, which I'll go to the photocopier in a minute. Four is the appraisal section. And five's evaluation. So I had a quick look at them. Erm and they look quite good, but irritatingly I could have done with them, after the first workshop . Mm. No but how much do you think they cost? A fortune I expect. How much do you think? Three hundred pounds. More. A thousand pounds. More. Eleven hundred quid apparently, just that. But we only Who's produced them? It's Erm the people who who our training consultant's just gone to I I I P L? Golly. Somebody anyway. And Oh Andrea Andrea Yeah. Andrea . Have you got them insured? So I've got She was staying with the tech wasn't she? Was she not? Er I think she was erm dithering a bit when we saw her wasn't she . If you give that s there's one there if you give me mine back, I'll give it to Ray. There's actually the self assessment brochure. Erm takes you through the er sort of background to I I P. So if you'd like to hang on to that. That'll sort of give you erm, where we should be at the minute. With this and talked about the rest of the the books. may as well er hang on to that and that. D don't lose them. Is this something, all organizations in North Yorkshire are getting . I'm not quite sure, I think most organizations have a certain amount of of sum of money if I can remember from the workshops . Other than Public sector. That's right. Yeah they get financed. Mm. But they've a they've given us that because we can't get any of the help. With the sort of the interpretation I took on it. Plus the fact we're in partnership with them, etcetera etcetera. So it was a bit of a But I mean even it obviously doesn't cost them over a thousand pounds to produce and i we wouldn't have bought it anyway, so in a sense it isn't they're not actually losing much by giving to us are they? Not really, but the irritating thing is, is looking at, Yeah. Erm I I only picked this up cos I went to the workshop on flexible training, and that happened to be there. She didn't even say, This is what it is. Yeah. Just as I walked out the door, there was that there, and I said, Oh what's this. So she said what it was, and then looking through it, it actually certainly we could have done with a fle I could have looked at the the flexible thing before we came to the meeting, because it Mhm. it actually really is a step by step guide to how to put a flexible training programme together. Erm for for I I P. Which as I say I've got on the photocopier at the minute, and er which want to look at Mm. but it's quite interesting really. Erm take some time to to have a brief look at that. So the paper you've got in front of you from the last meeting then. The top two sheets are almost a summary, for all the staff that I never actually got sent out, but it has been to the staff consultative committee, who who gave it a nod. Without spotting the deliberate mistake, which was that four point one wasn't included in the papers that went to to staff consultative, which was the general list of things that we pulled out from the brainstorm last time. Erm to that point of view. And you've taken as well. nobody picked that up. Er. Well that list was. Yes because it's in the other list, the other papers Yeah. that went to C S N T. Ah right. In there. And e what I'd put on what I'd said to her Erm I think I'd put on here, you know,Re refer to section five on on of the brainstorm list, and she'd all she'd typed in is, Where is section five of the brainstorm list, I couldn't couldn't find. And I hadn't spotted it. Erm so that's b that's the list from there. I want to know what,work with unemploye-ed , is. Unemploye-ed. I taken one thing, I think there's one here Allan. Mhm. On that bit, is and I know it's gonna be included is er your training in European issues. That's for the information group. Yeah and I know you've you sent a note round about it as well didn't you? Yeah. And She and She Sheila That's in response to Sheila's er persistence. I see. She was from that note if you have you sort of left it to her to organize the training? Kevin also mentioned the other day, about group group work for E Os. Was that had we and I know we mentioned it when we met last time, but was that really we're including in E O work with the unemployed . Mhm. Mm and presentation skills. Well it was all it was in with presentation skills . skills as well. Co cos Julie mentioned that again to me as well, for the training for work. E Os Yeah. doing group work . Mm. Yeah yeah. . So I mean I I was debating whether to actually send this out I might wait and see what happens. From today and whether or not we make much progress. But I might send this out just as a holding, a holding note anyway. Erm I think that would be a good idea so that Yeah. people know some sort of progress report isn't it really . Generally what's what's going on. That's right. I won I wonder about, on interviewing skills for all staff, Mm. The interviewing course for careers officers isn't really strictly speaking, interviewing skills. I don't know whether it's worth putting it as a separate What do you want to call it? Just careers guidance. Cos it's about the whole, it's not just about interviewing, interviewing. It's sort of that and it's not really a skills course. I mean we c we can leave it like that but i if people then wanted to go Alright well tell me what you call it. Well you could put interviewing skills, that would be for employment officers wouldn't it then? Mm. And then careers guidance I think covers it. And it's called enhanced careers guidance. I think I can live with that. Individual careers guidance actually. Which I suppose is Interviewing skills But it's not I mean it is quite theoretical so it sort of represents it wrongly . So it's it's enhanced careers guidance. That's what it was called yeah. For individuals. Do I I mean I don't know whether we'll keep the individuals on the next one, cos people did talk about group work . Yeah. The other thing is with employer legislation update, did we decide to do some training on that or did we decide that we would produce a handout? Yeah we did talk about that. Or did we decide we'd do both? I think didn't we say we'd cover it as part of an E O workshop. Mm. Because that was the sort of Oh right. thing that was that was coming into Right ho. Okay. I know that the summaries of guidance is is in that list, and from the brief discussion we had at the careers officer's meeting this week about summaries of guidance, I know we're starting off the process by having representatives come to a meeting on the eleventh of May. But it's it's such a broad issue, that any opportunity we do get, to have a a broader discussion, for more individuals to contribute their or have their say, you know again on a workshop or something, I would very much support that. We had actually got that in for that September Mm, on, we got a date for that on the C Os day Workshop? Yeah. Oh good Mm. To do Right that's fine then. But it was about i there were three things on the day, so it should be an hour and half a couple of hours . Yeah In September and then after that It's it it's more than sort of a ten minute slot in a staff meeting. Yeah. You know to feed into a rep though Yeah. isn't it? Yeah. I try to think of the three things we'd identified for the for the fifteenth of September. Erm one was careers one was careers guidance agreements wasn't it, a review of that Yeah. I think, one was summaries of guidance, Yeah. And I can't remember what the other one was. Was it an update on the . Mm don't know. No it's I C G conference isn't it, the fifteenth of September? Is it? There won't be that many going though will there? To Plymouth. Do you reckon? Well She er who usually goes, Sheila, Jayne,. A Wednesday. Well I've got I C G conference on the thirteenth to the fifteenth, but maybe it's er maybe it's just as Iris is away for Oh I'm at Huddersfield University. It's usually on a starts the Friday till the Monday doesn't it Must be maybe it's just the boss is away, till the fifteenth. Oh I've got it here, evaluation. Oh right. Er careers guidance agreements and A G. Ah that's right we said would do it Yeah Well well that's actually written down here isn't it? Is it? Yeah. C O workshop, fourteenth and fifteenth of September, colon summaries of guidance Oh right Yeah. Yes. Yeah . I always thought you were . Well done Jayne. Well done Jayne. Do you want me to play this to the lot on the way to Bournemouth next week? I think you might have better things Oh do you? Right. Okay. Erm just updates on this, the business and financial management list, that's down here, are actually negotiating regionally erm to get twelve to fifteen grand off the management initiative for the region. To erm run some business and financial planning management courses. So Steve and myself are er have done a done a bid that we should know today whether or not it's going to the main group, and if it goes to the main group, there's a great chance it'll be accepted. If it doesn't go to the main group, it won't be and we may have to do something ourselves. What do you mean the main group? Sorry there's a subgroup of the the national management initiative. Right. Of looking at them and trying to do a bit of s sorting out. Right. Erm and if they accept it, which includes Cathy , Nicky, erm, Jean , Linda, and the guy who's running it, who's name escapes me, or something like that. Erm he'll erm if they accept it it'll it'll stand a chance of getting them to the main group. So we should know that, but whether it'll allow, how many of us it'll allow to go on it I don't know. Erm Cos there'll only be so many from each authority I suppose Yeah. in the region. Erm okay? But it it might not be the sort of thing where numbers need to be, I mean Mm. it's not gonna be the sort of thing you need to go into small groups and and discuss No. in a sense is it. It's more the sort of erm, lecture style delivery I'd have thought would be appropriate so Mm. you it may be reasonable. Actually one other thing that that isn't done, but then I know it's gonna be done on divisional basis, is the appraisal training. You know this Appraisal interviews, things. Well appraisal training. Which you know I know Mm. Harrogate have they've done theirs. Mm. But I don't think anybody else has. I'm not gonna do it like that because, if I train everybody, some people might be trained and it's a y a years before they're appraised. I'm gonna do it in small groups, as we get to people. So you're still gonna do that sort of three hour training I don I don't know if it'll be three hours I mean ideally I know it should be it just depends how we we can fit it in. But that's what I'm gonna try to do. Maybe with groups of us as small as sort of six to ten. Cos otherwise people'll have it so far in advance of their appraisal. And I don't think that's appropriate. Mm. So you see there'll be within the division, erm well five of us appraising. So we'll all identify, the next two people we're going to appraise, and perhaps get that te group of ten together you see Right. and then that will take us for a period of about probably three months cos we're saying we'll done one at least every six weeks. Well perhaps we could E T and and f we could fit into that. I was gonna ask Sue if can I Mm. sort of fit the adult careers office into that ? Yeah. When when when are you gonna be starting? I don't know. Soon because we just We've nearly finish I've nearly finished doing peop Well Bill's still got to do Diane , I've got to do Cath and then we're ready to start . I've got a appraisal . Yeah. Should we include our ones in that then? Our Well we did decide Did we? Yeah Mm. We had some discussion at somewhere, that we decided that erm to include them in the divisional training, Yeah. Right. If you could Cynthia. Otherwise I'll I'll organize something. Can I have a piece of paper ? But they will but they will be appraised by, who will appraise them then? Well if it it'll be Julie, Neil or Alison. Right. Just one? Were any of the adult careers officers including the Harrogate one?actually fitting them in you see. I c er I can't remember. No. Er Deborah did a sheet with everybody on, who was going to be appraising who. But I can't think, what she said about the adult team. I mean the b with the training but I mean Yeah. they weren't Well I mean she No I don't know no. But I imagine it'll all be people on that list who were involved in training, I can't remember. Cos if it was as long as three hours, then I'd expect Julie would have had to program them in for it wouldn't she . Mm. Although I did ask Deborah to include . Oh well perhaps she did then. I'm sure she would. Mm. Okay? Anything else that's missing? Can I just go over the page onto the number six, that says what we've already done. Where it's already got A C G just after, is that the C O C T one, Jayne or just a careers officer one? That's just careers officers. There's a separate one for career's teachers. If you remember it means Yeah. paper. I haven't seen anything sent out about that careers I've got it with me. teacher one. Has it gone now? Oh the caree Has i has Jim sent it out do you know? I don't know, I sent in to him. Yeah I know you said. Cos I haven't done anything with it, cos you said you'd send it him, and I couldn't decide whether I was supposed to send it ahead or he was . No it was going in the book. He said it was going in the level two book . Ah Right. I've got the information about the C Os one, today. So you Right. can send it out. Right okay. Erm We're seeing Jim a week on Tuesday aren't we? Well we were. Oh. Unless we can shift it up here. Because I know have to go to Dorothy 's provincial council. Regraded, as the expert witness. Let's let's get Cath up. Let's get Cath up and erm we'll er Where did you think it was then, Allen, that meeting? York. Oh did you? Oh right. if that had've been Cath, that would have been a real turn up for me wouldn't it? Can I borrow a tap a minute,. Okay, smashing. Thanks. You don't know the trouble we've had actually getting this. This coffee. I though the Bird's Eye coffee . I think it broke the filter. Morning Cath. Morning. Morning. Liz has got some stuff for you. Hang on. Oh right. That's what I'm just looking for, hang on. One of the things Cath's working on, for us, is the training records system. Erm h how's that getting on Cath? Training records? Erm halfway. Which half? The top half or the bottom half? Well er I don't like to say, I don't really know. Erm maybe about three quarters. Computer writing it? Yes it's going on to to word processor. Yes Mhm. yeah. Yeah it's a slow job . Er let me just check So is that is that last year's training? For all the years. From when anybody started, the training goes right through up till the last bit of training they've done . Right. So it isn't really an upgrade Yes yes At the moment it's er But you don't have it? I don't but it's lying it must be lying on my desk . Very time-consuming. Dorothy could perhaps fax it up, cos I I had it typed out yesterday so we could, do it. Shall I do that? Shall I give her a ring and ask her to fax it ? Well Cath could do it. What's that. Could you fa could you ring Dorothy. Yes. On top of my desk there's a ha there's one of these. One of these, inside it, it says, To go out to go out To go out today. And it's it's about the C Os C E D software training. Oh right . And there's three pages. And you want it faxing back here? Yeah. Right okay. I bet it's not there. Sorry. Mm. It's alright. Right so maybe, before we go any farther, with this er if we just, just before we do that. There's nothing else to add. The paper that went to er C C S M T, erm was really a similar one but just partly with a bit more erm details. And where we were with investors in people. Erm so that we may well have to link in to the training programme and go back and check, for instance in three where I've talked about the business plans. Have we actually got any training for those nine points there, that say, you know, Are we doing something on produ I know the product specification's developing. But do we Yeah. need any training for that? Do we need any training on consumer evaluation? Do we need any training on erm If we change the line management of the adult's team, do we need any training on next? Picking up after T two M. Erm anything on career's libraries, and anything on reviewing the C E G framework document. So we'll have to I think keep going back to these throughout the year and saying, Are we erm are we doing it I mean some of those some of those are already done aren't they. I mean the marketing our guidance, is the product specification one. That's on the list, already. Where's that? Marketing our guidance. I think that relates to Oh right. the product specification. And Yeah. there is evaluation plan for this year is meeting on the fifteenth of September, so for C Os there's some work on consumer evaluation. In sc with s the school. Clients. That school and college clients. But perhaps not with the other groups there. Yeah. The next one, it really depends what changes we make, but any changes will potentially have training implications won't they so Mm. That's right. Next we could probably I mean Deborah's looking after that one isn't she. Yes. there there's been a She asked us to do something in relation to employer awareness campaign. Yeah. You could describe as training. Did you do anything on your marketing, employer awareness er On that, No. Mm. Is that worth repeating, that course do you think? Oh I think it is. Yeah. It seemed to go down very well. Yeah. If you can afford another four hundred pounds or whatever it was. You were on that were you . Yes it was really good. I thought it was useful. Don't let's go there again though, cos I spent all day making coffee. You won't get Bill there again. You won't get Bill there again no. Why what happened to him? He got his car stolen. He got his car stolen. Got his car nicked, from . It made the news local news actually that Did it? I h well not h personally Bill's robbed car was used in a robbery. But the actual erm carry on they'd had with it. Yeah. Apparently was on the local news Cos they had a bit of a chase or something didn't they ? Mm. Yeah they they used it to get away. Why did they choose Bill's car I wonder? As in It's probably old No it's not no it's a erm Vauxhall Astra. Or Belmont or whatever. Yeah It's quite it's not that old. It was a leased car so it's only a couple of years old . Oh it's a lease car is it? It's not he'd just bought it . Oh it's not a lease car. Mm. Just changed from a leased t Anyway we'll have to, I think, revisit those nine points as w as we go on because that's Yeah. part of the the thing. Obviously then we need to pick up the appraisal system, and I think what I'll have to do with that, is as the targets kep co start coming in, erm we'll have to set up some sort of system, preferably I suspect computerized. That will actually I'll be able to put the targets, or the ideas of the targets onto computer, and pick up any trailing training from that. Do you Will you get the training from the targets though, because certainly from I mean onl only talking about two appraisals so far Mm. that we've actually talked about training needs as part of the Mm. appraisal. But that's not really what the targets are focused on . Very true. Mm. Mm. The fac targets are focused on things that are within that own persons control, that they can do something about themselves, straight away. Without any sort of training implications really. Mm. Mm. I don't know. But anyway the idea we have to fix up some sort of system that picks up the the targets from that. Yes maybe. Mm. Erm Going through that four. Erm the document we're gonna look at in a minute, talks about training entitlement, so we can maybe, maybe pick that up. We s talked to Cath a minute or go about the full training record system. Erm that should mean that everybody'll get a a copy of their own team's entitlement. Whether you I mean a the problem with that is keeping it up to date on Mm. to u on more than an annual basis from this end. Erm but you know we'll we'll obviously try and do that. Erm four point five talks about I mean we talked about everybody charging all over the country doing various visits. Four point five. And the competence checklists came from that training course I was on, that's saying everybody,as well as having a job description, you've got to have a competence ch checklist, for that that er helps you to develop the training for the job, depending on the competencies you need. And that's gonna be a a bit of a er challenge I think. But we obviously have to do it, just for the the levels of job. Erm so we've maybe got a dozen to do for the service, and I'll have to look at that and and go from there. And then when we had the brainstorm, as I said. And then the cost benefit, evidence of need, I I drew out a f a paper. Erm on the back I think for each course we'll we'll have to try and fill in. But again that's I noticed erm looking through the particular about the organization er sheet, is actually there's something in there about that as well. So maybe if we could just flick through this, before we go on and start to to pick days and who's gonna do what. From that. That's right Investment in People limited. In conjunction with Heart of England Training and Enterprise Council. .No it's this one isn't it. Okay. Now one of the things I think we need to do, And I I I put it in there and it's pa it's part of my appraisal system, is to do some work on actually entitlements to training. For people. And do we say to everybody who's in the organization, erm, You are entitled to X amount of training each year. Somebody was telling me that. Thanks Anne. Somebody was telling me that erm some careers service It was Steve I was talking to in the car the other night. Some careers services er they have twenty days entitlement to training each year. Staffordshire. He was saying, they're entitled to twenty days training each year. I think until I actually get the records system up and running, and do a check on how much our people are doing, erm it's difficult to say what our, if we have an entitlement, what it is. And I think it's a fairly you know, suck it and see. Mm. Stick your stick your finger in there, see which way the wind blows . Is that twenty days pro rata? Well yes. I mean th this is the problem with part Well probably yeah. time staff. Because erm They need as much training. Yeah. They need as much training to do the job effectively. If they only have ten days, that's er not very much. Mm there's also the fact that some people need If you include more training than others isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. I don't know whether I like this word, entitlement anyway. Oh I'll go and tell the boss he can Oh Jayne put it in my appraisal. I don't I mean it's sort of like you know, everybody has a right to this. Well I don't think anybody has a right to anything in particular. Are we trying to get I know I know I I know and I appreciate that's it's a you know maybe a bit of a controversial view, but I I I think entitlement's a bit of a Well strong word. i i perhaps in terms of if you think of it in terms of like the employer of the day, Well we've paid an external trainer to come along, it's actually costing us quite a lot of money. There's all the additional costs in terms of people's salaries and travelling expenses Mm. and so on. I can understand that obviously we've got to be cautious about that sort of thing. But in terms of induction training, to make sure someone can actually do their job , Yes yeah. I think they're entitled to to things like that. Yes. Yes. But maybe not entitles Cos I think we've got a responsibility to make sure that we give people Mm. the support and training they need . But that that's because it fits into what we want people to be able to achieve. I it means that we're making people. Erm we're giving them the appropriate and suitable skills to be able to do their job . Yeah. Yeah. But I don't see that as being the same as an entitle But that's what all training should be really isn't it. I mean all training should be towards the aims of achieving the business plans . I think it's the word I'm unhappy with Sue. I'm not I'm not sa ent yeah entitlement. Ah it's not someth you know, it's not s something that I'm prepared to stick my neck out and say, Look you know, I I don't think that word ought to appear anywhere. It's just it's just a a view that's all . Mm. I think it's from the organization's point of view, from our statement of purpose, business plan, yeah, we do want people to achieve certain things, and therefore we provide them with the training to be able to do that. But looking at it from the other point, that's the you know the word entitlement comes from you know, I I think I'm entitled to twenty days' training, but whether I need twenty days' training to be Yeah. able to do my job, I might need thirty days' training . Mm. It's just just the word that's all . I thought you were gonna say, It's it's derived from the Latin I think what what you're really saying though, is that it's probably a mistake to actually look at it in terms of a number of days. And I think that's a very good point, because you're actually i the what you've actually said is, You're entitled to training to enable you to do you job competently. And I Do your job. Yeah. think that's much more sensible approach. Yeah. I suppose there's a certain amount of personal investment as well. You know I might want to do some training which is n doesn't necess Mm. isn't necessary for me to do my job, but because I have a personal interest . Mm. And I think sent me on that course you know. Yeah. But erm i it's I I think it's the word entitlement, the fact that it's anybody's right to have this Right. or to have Mm. that. I think it's a bit strong. A and and to say twenty days when somebody might need much more than that, somebody might need Mm. less because it's the type of job that they're doing. You know, Mm. such as f er for example a word processor clerk or may not saying, may not necessarily need so much training as But doesn't doesn't it often work out though that the people who erm need more training, often are the ones that have resisted going on training in the past . Oh well that's up I think that's up to us because it fits in with in our aims and objectives. You say, Yeah. You need this training to do your job . Mm. Yeah. S I mean t y you see, what you could work more towards is almost a sort of an agreement wi with individuals isn't it ? Mm. Mm. And although you know whether we use the word entitlement or not, it could Mm. actually work both ways. Cos I I can understand if we didn't handle it carefully, it could mean people would be more demanding and say, I'm entitled to go on this training . Mm mm. Whereas if we're very careful about how we put the message across, it could actually do the opposite in that, people see that they're entitled to a certain basic level if you like, to enable them to Yes. And every time they put themselves forward to go on to a tra on a training course, they've actually got to think through, and maybe justify to their line manager, Mm. Erm this im this training day is gonna help me be better at my job, in this, this and this respects. Or your line managers I think can say to the individual, This training course is gonna help you do your job better in this, this Because and this respect. And then that can be reviewed afterwards and so on. Mhm. Mhm. So it could be helpful if it's Mm. handled properly. Yeah. Mm. And I think that it is it would be a mistake to look at in terms of a certain set number of days. Cos it will One one thing that personally And also what's available in the year. Yeah. I mean it might be one year you want Yeah. thirty days training and then the next the next year ten Yeah. I find that people tend to not put themselves down for training courses. I don't know if this is the same in other places. But erm careers officers particularly put themselves down for visits, to Mm. colleges and you know, different places. And and the visits seem to be more popular, and often quite a few careers officers will put their names down for that. And I think in terms of justifying that, if we had that you know, if you're saying people have to justify why they're going, I think they'd all more or less say the same. You know, that often sort of getting some first hand information is the Mm. best thing to you know, boost your You know how then how do you decide that And a one person needs it more than another. And anot in a careers officer's view the other day, that seeing as though they'd worked there twenty years ago, they wanted to go back and see how it had changed. Mm. Mm. As a reason for going. Yeah. I mean I think that in terms of visits They could have thought up something better than that couldn't they ? I think in terms of visits, that er an entitlement might work, with visits for careers Yeah. Mm. officers , but I think in terms of other kinds of training courses, that they're slightly different. And more an individual basis. I mean technically we do have an entitlement to visits in that Janet was was reminding me the other day that that we said, when Deborah was here, that everybody was entitled to four visits a year. Erm two to H E I didn't realize this, two to H E, two to F E. And I think that was on the basis that we were insisting that everybody visited the local F E college or you know sort of Yorkshire, Scarborough, Harrogate got got their irregular updatings and S and Selby when whatever. But that that we took the view that you know people were entitled to go to an H E institution, and and keep up to date with what was happening there every year. Erm I mean I I have some concerns, like Cynthia, about the number of careers officers who suddenly appear when you say there's a visit to, Hull University, and we've got people coming from all over the county and it's costing us a fortune. What But you say something like, the employer marketing to employers, and certainly the the employment officers We had quite a number on that course didn't we. It was mix like Erm it was a mix yeah it was a sort of erm a half and half. Was it? mm. Yeah yeah. I know the first lot of bits I got in were all employment officers and I was thinking, Hang on a minute where's There were a number of careers officers I though that it was really Yeah. Was a bit mainly Particularly aimed at employment officers cos that was where the lack of confidence was coming from . Yeah. In the original request. I think it was I think it was really Yeah. Sue yeah. Mm. Had an interesting discussion at a staff meeting on Wednesday though. Some const constructive criticisms to help us rationalize the college visits. They were Mhm. actually saying there should be less visits. Mm. Fine. And that m some colleges didn't need visiting every year. Mm. And s some suggestions that I said I'd put forward to Janet about streamlining nominations and so on. Oh God. Can I just just just move on cos I think the first thing we're gonna pick up on this is this entitlement business again. So if we look at module objectives. Which is sort of the the first page in. Second page in, keep going, keep going. Mm that's it. Right. Right I mean this tells you what the You've past it Jayne. I can't find it either. The first page . Front page. It's just before unit one. That's it. Left hand page down. Oh there. Right I've got it. Right. Mm. I mean this talks about what this particular booklet does, and and why we're saying, it would have been useful to have had this probably for our last meeting really. But erm it doesn't really matter. So this talks about putting together the comprehensive training and development policy, and training plan, that we need to get to get I I P to demonstrate. And it talks about writing measurable objectives for all training events. Something I don't think we particularly do. Erm and introducing regular training and development planning throughout the organization. Which is is what we said was one of the key key areas we need to do for I I P. And then defining the business benefit for all training events. There is one there is another one on evaluation that I think, erm I'll give to Ray because he's doing that evaluation thing He's doing that now. Yes. and then get him to Mm. take us through that the next time we have a Mm. a group to get together. Which I suggest is after that workshop. Sometime if we can spare half a day. Erm sometime in July Erm is it May the nex May the next one ? I I The one he's going on to that I can't go, it's the third week in July. Oh right so maybe plan the meet again after that. Or . Okay so the first bit then is actually the the policy. And they talk about, on page module three, unit one point five. There. Actually writing out to our members of staff and saying, This is the policy that we will have. So you know, saying, We s fully support the policy that erm the line manager's gotta resp share responsibility with the individual. Taking Sue's point, all new staff get the induction programme. Erm we're linking with the relevant staff association, erm just some general er points about how we identify and evaluate erm and put together the training plan, And and settling once and for all about the national recognized qualification. Saying what we'll do for that. And then over the page it actually then, puts through gives us the quite nicely, erm a document that we could use just to send out and and do. If we wanted to pick this up and said, This was an idea. Now I've actually done this in the past. If you remember a couple of years ago. Er three or four years ago for two or three years. I actually put out a quite a thick document that I think could be classed as a a Mm. training and development policy. But we haven't done it for the past eighteen months. It was good. And it it strikes me that this is er a starting point. For the beginning of that document almost. Now what it actually says, I think Jayne, in the erm No it doesn't. No er. We if you go to back to that first page, under induction it says, A training has a mandatory contact Yeah. content, but it can be expended extended to meet special needs. Why what does that mean? Well I think it basically means everybody does does wha we've asked them to do, which is the work shadowing content of the first week. And after that if you've got special en Oh but if you've got special entitlement . Okay. Sorry what page are you on now. Well I've just I've just quickly gone through it and said, the the documents that are blue in this this copy, Black in Black in most of them. Actually give you something that we If we decided to to put out to our members of staff, seems to actually cover the erm the needs of er the I I P. Can I just ask about the evaluation. Are you saying that that's in this next workshop? Yeah. Is that the thing that's in the next workshop? Yeah. So we don't really need to consider that at this stage . Yeah. Do we want a five minute break. Yeah shall we have another coffee? Good idea. Yeah. That's what we'll d to try and finish for half past twelve if we can. Fine. Cos we've got this thing after that What time is that? Well Ray's coming about half eleven he said. So he'll be joining Oh is he? this and then we can pick up. Erm Good, cos I'd quite like to be off for Well half past three. I'm thinking we at the latest we can Great. Brilliant. finish if if possible before that. And they don't the T Q M stuff'll be er I don't know what we're gonna do with that. Right. So we've got the I think that to to fulfil I I P requirements, we've gotta put out some it would be useful to put out something like a training and and development policy. We'll have to look again, it's interesting with the nationally recognized qualifications and records for life bit, that we already do some of this. But it actually formalizes I think saying that you know, We'll we'll give so much funding where they're wholly related to the business, and then whatever. We've said in the past it's been fifty percent full stop. For those people who bothered to get in touch with me. Mm. So you've had some haven't you for seven three six O or something. Did you not get that Did you not? Oh right. No. Anyway we're back we paid everything from Open University to word processing courses over mine. Oh well they don't do advanced degrees. No that's too advanced Cynthia. But we don't If you're that advanced you have to pay for yourself. Mm. the support as well I'm thinking of something like Mary's P G C E, that Alison's her sort of mentor for that , Yeah. and she's doing other things through work that you know, I'm I mean it in theory it's sort of giving some support to. Well more than in theory I suppose . Because she's using her work as evidence for for getting through Yeah. Yeah. and so on. I want this in for when me and Jayne do this management training at er at Grammar School. This year it's it's gonna be a two hundred percent funding cut. For me. A hundred percent funding for more than fifty percent of the day you know. So I mean I I I am suggesting that this appears to be a ready made useful document that that forms part of a at the right time, we put this out to back up the the rest of the er the document. It maybe maybe might be appropriate Jayne to go to the next staff staff consultative committee as the the next er Unless I can manage to be off sick again. Yeah you managed that Yeah it was quite pleasant. Thank you very much. It was quite a nice meeting actually. And you you did discuss libraries. In that didn't you? Very briefly they did in the end cos everybody else m jumped on the band wagon. Yeah. So you shouldn't feel alone in that. But they'd had a pre-meeting when they'd tried to drop it out. Yeah. Erm Joyce I think had had tried to drop out the things that were only relevant to individual officers out . Mhm. And erm but then they'd all Margaret and erm everybody had jumped on the bandwagon and said,. So it'll come up at the next C S N T . Yeah. Deborah did actually say to me, she thought that Harrogate might feel I think it's to do with priorities for the Yeah. librarians isn't it. Yeah. So I've just made a note, the next C S N T, I'll in the report back from the staff consultative committee, there's two or three things we need Yeah. to pick up. We need to pick be clear about the erm allocation of time for librarians, for the careers guidance agreements as well. Mm. That was mentioned. The other day wasn't it That's right. Yeah about time you got skills to pay really isn't it? Funny enough there's a course just coming downstairs about schools. How w how organizations can identify what schools will pay for. Mm. Mm. I've just put it to the boss to see if he's er Mm. thinks we ought to go . Anyway so that's the first stage of that. I think we we need to actually go back to erm or develop the stage one thing and and increase what we've done. Unit two talks about training objectives. And I know one of the things I picked up off the course was it? No. No. No. No. Erm one of the things I picked up off the course is, technically every training course that we have, should be written in a way that that identifies erm Unit two point four I'm on to at the minute.. Nearly there. The erm actually says that every training course should have some sort of objectives and performance and standards and and measurable objective that presumably we can then pick up in evaluation. What was That's an area that I'm a bit unclear about. Yeah. Are we suppose Yeah. Mm. Are we supposed to be using the pre-course questionnaires that I've seen a couple of times, on all course? Well eventually I think we'll have to get to that to that standard. Erm er I mean er technically it should be something that's done centrally. And I'm trying to I've tried without success. And I'll I'll probably have to look at a you know s Cath and I have to sit down and say, Look for every course, this needs to happen. There needs to be a Mm. pre-course questionnaire goes out. Whoever's running the course needs to fill in this particular form . Mm. Mm. For you to then add the rest of it, Mm. and then after the course there's gotta be a post-evaluation form fed out. You know the the the Mm. line manager does an evaluation on the day, but then back at base we do an evaluation for the the line manager. I've just made a note for the employer's thing Jayne. Yeah. To send out er a form to each member of staff, so they go and talk to their line manager about it and share what's gone on. Erm and try and get Cath to do that for every course. Mhm. That's Erm that's what I was thinking because Mm. in terms of the evaluation that we already do, it tends to be about the course itself. The sort of content Mm. as it with a view to actually altering the course next time . Yes. Erm But we don't actually do anything to I mean sometimes you get comments about the way that it's helped people. Mm. But it's not exactly measurable even then. No. So I mean technically I think, what you're supposed to be with every course . Erm is almost to go back so that I don't know who's on the course but Jayne's course for example, Clare. Clare, erm would go back to the office, you you or Phyllis or Joyce I mean preferably Phyllis would sit down with her and say, Right, Clare, what have you learned? Blah-de-blah-de-blah. In six months later or three months later would then diary date to say, come back again. Alright what have you done, in the least three months, that says that you've used the course, benefited from the course, that sort of thing. Now I think we do that irregularly. Mm. One might one might say one might say rarely. that with Mm. all the courses that that Yeah. that we do and the courses that everybody goes on, I mean you'd you you'd just be spending all your time sort of Evaluating everybody. checking up on people and evaluating Well that's why I say, I don't think it has to always be, Sue, No mm. me, Cynthia. I it's got to be you know somebody within the organization . Admin assistants for for employment staff. You know, seniors for whatever the A D Ms, and yourself and you share the depending on what the course is, you would share the load out. If every course er made such an impression as that one the other day we'd be Well that's right I mean I I think it's like a lot of things isn't it? It it seems a n and this when I saw this, I thought, Oh my God, you know, the I I P gets bigger every time I look at something Mhm. different. Erm but I I suppose once it gets embedded in the system, it's maybe not so bad. I mean were we talking about you know, I suppose a quick five minutes feedback but then you know, five minutes in three months time. Cos the key thing with Clare is, she's don she's obviously gone back doing a lot, but who's gonna follow it up in three months time, to see Mhm. what's got embedded. Yeah. In the system? Yeah and and Yeah. It's a cultural thing isn't it really? Getting people to change their approach and expect that with training, expect to have to analyze what they what they thought they're going to get out of it, why they should be doing it. Mhm. That's right. And I don't think we do it so much with the erm careers service training, but with the careers teachers often we've got them doing action plans and things Mhm. at the end. And you get the feeling that they'll sort of go back to school and college or wherever Mm. Nobody'll actually sit down with them and go through it or review it Mm. at a later date. We also tend to write objectives more for those course. At least we did for the longer Yeah. courses didn't we. And presented those at the beginning. That's right. Which you tend not to do so much for the shorter ones. Which is what this is all about really trying Mhm. to to say to people, If you're coming on the course this is what you're going to get. Talk to your manager about personally and and you know corporate objectives and and go from there. So I think that's something that we we're going to have to. And it may well be that that we'll have to you know make sure everybody who's running a training course, gets this particular and and tries to fit in Mm. with it. With regard to action plans, one course I went on, I think it was with Theresa, ad er it was Adrian Is it Adrian ?name. The one with I know who you mean yeah. Bruce's men. And er we all had to do an action plan at the end of the course, and then three months later Mm. the action plan was actually sent to you in the post . Mm. Yeah. Yeah. You know with the idea that you sort of should look at your action plan and say , Yeah. Mhm. Well have I done this? What have I got to do Yeah. now? sort of thing. I think that ha has to be in on if you're on a slightly longer course than that a day you Mhm. know. Yeah. But I I remember that happening Yes cos Theresa's was two days. it it was it was really good. It made you think. It made you think didn't it? Yeah. Mm. Mm. Mm. So I mean I think we've got to go into this for all the course. Erm and then er you you know using this particular this particular module. Perhaps we should decide that it's a high priority to actually do a proper job, like this. And therefore be slightly less ambitious about the numbering range of courses we're going to run. We're more likely to achieve this Well if we are slightly less ambitious . Yeah. I think the only other way of doing it isn't it is to say we won't do it for every course initially. We'll we'll give it a go and we'll Mm. you know, some Mm. whoever's you know whoever's running the next Yeah. Yeah. the the careers course Yeah. for for the Yeah. erm software one which which could possibly have You know, we'll ask Liz or Yeah. we'll ask Liz to do it, and give it a go and then talk through it. And then Or we'll we'll say if we get a facilitator in, I don't see why we shouldn't ask Graham. Mm. You know it would be interesting to get Graham, when he does the next T Q M thing, to do it. So I agree it it may well be a pain in the neck, but it it may not fall No but it will be. Obviously Obviously interpreted your er But I think we'll have to work towards that and I I agree Sue I think there's two ways either saying, you know, we don we do it for everything, or Mm. which I think is a lot to answer for w we do one Mm. or two and have a look at it. And see how easy it is. I mean the idea of course is to try at some stage and run a trainer trainer's course, so that we expand the number of people who can who can do the training. Which we've got . You know the fur the further we get away from the trainers course, the less inclined I feel to be able to do it . But. But Su are you going on this one ? I'm supposed to be. Yes. I've not Oh jolly good Sue'll be the most up to date one. November you said. Now I Yeah, that's right, November. Cos there was one in July and I suspected it would clash with holidays, which it probably does, so the November one I'm trying for. I'll ring them up and see if they've got any places left. Well Cath can do it for you. I've got the booklet with me actually. Will you let me go again on the basis I made a cock-up the first time round . Mm. Erm When we we but we already do quite a lot of this anyway. I mean the whole Yeah. thing about objectives. I mean you you can't run a course I always try to write objectives. No. But I I think the things is isn't it, to a certain extent with the I I P it's formalizing it ? Mm. And it I think the evidence And having and having a procedure and a policy. And it's the evidence that a you've got to produce to say that I've got to demonstrate that the training that we do has objectives, so that they can go back and say to Cynthia, you went on that course in whatever, what were the objectives for it? Mm. Can you identify why you went? What were the objectives? What did you learn? How was it The next section goes on to analysis section three I think. Unit three. Yeah. Mm. Unit three. Module three, unit three. Have you got it? Sue? Yeah. I'll speak to Cath before she Yeah yeah. goes and see if she This goes on to measuring erm training needs analysis. Now is you remember last time we said we wouldn't do this at the minute because we erm we've got erm a It's appraisal. checklist. But it it goes into picking it out of er I and I think maybe when we do decide to do another training needs analysis. After we've got We said we'd get the appraisal system up and running didn't we. Yeah. Mm. Er We'd do that with that. So unit four talks about how to plan erm how to plan it which is where we're at at the minute. Really and the type of documentation that they're that they're on about. Actually can I digress back Yeah. to er the training objectives. What page? What's your page ? Er module three, unit two dot thirteen. And there it's got about erm measurable objectives and it's saying, Ensure all managers can write measurable training objectives. Organize a workshop or training session if necessary. So I'm wondering if we need to have that in the training programme . Well I think As a sort of starting point after Yeah. the workshop, you know, th next I I P workshop, You were saying about having a meeting then. If that should be in the form of Yeah. well what I'd like I think I'd like people to do is go away and read this and see if it makes any sense when you've actually sat and studied it. Erm That remi you've C Cynthia saying that reminds me of the other thing that came out in feedback. From appraisal and the the training that you did the other week , Mm. is training in target setting. Mm. Mm. Which you could link in, target setting and objective setting and so on. You could put together as a package couldn't you ? Mm. It's the measurable ones and training that I'm just not I don't know what that means. Well I think it means, in the sense, if you look at the example they've given here. Well an objective is always measurable. Yeah. If you've if it's smart. If it's smart. Yeah it should be. If you look at the on sheet unit two point seven , At the bottom, and the measurable objective here is is reducing the number of complaint escalations by fifty percent within three months. Yeah. That's the sort of thing I mean. I think it would be very difficult to do that sort of thing . For us to do. Well it may be. But it may well be, with something like Jayne's workshop that she ran with with Graham , Well I didn't it was Graham's workshop. I didn't do anything. Well Graham's workshop. That the measurable objective might be that that that people who are on that course d go out and do X. Which is why you s when you set it up, you've got to say, Well what are people going to do at the end of the workshop, that demonstrates that they've learnt something from it? Yeah but then how do you va if one of your objectives is, that staff should be more confident in erm in their employer work. In things like cold and How do you actually measure that. I mean the only way measure it I suppose is by talking to them. You won't have any sort of numerical. I wouldn't have thought that you'd have any numerical erm But you could say that, whereas at the minute, because people are frightened the don don't go out and do it, they now you know, will go out and do it. Yeah yeah that's wha but I mean But would you then it' not numerically or Mm. No. You're not gonna say visit fifty fifty firms after this. No. No. Cos I mean you'd have your employer plan for the year anyway really . But there are some staff that we we assess their competency of employer visiting. Okay only people in their part two, but Yeah. you could actually measure an increasing competence. Could you. If some i Well well you could I mean if you went out with someone and you thought they were pretty naff talking to the employer again six months later and say, Oh they're a lot better . Oh right if you were measuring them yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's that's true yes. Yeah. But then that would mean that you'd have to have assessed people in whatever it was they were going on the training course before Yeah. they went on, so you could then actually it's easy with part two people isn't it?cos you're measuring them and assessing them anyway. But how many part two people were on that course? I you know if we took that course as an example and wh what would I don't know. be the measurable objective? There was a part one person on the course. But not I don't whether there were any part two. Yeah. You see a this is what I feel is Yes I don't disagree, it may well be we want to talk to somebody like Adrian. And say, Come in Or Graham even. Mm. Although we have to pay for hi we have to pay for Adrian you see. I mean Adrian's two hundred pound a day. Is he. And that's internal. He's quite good at it But yeah I mean I might talk to Adrian and say alright come and do something on on measurable training objectives for us. But but we do it from Here. Er er Yeah. We do it in the aims and objectives don't we Cynthia. You know, the three year plan. We say, These are these are the objectives. This is how we're gonna measure it. Yeah. Mm. But a lot of the training doesn't actually have a definite something that's sort of a number because it's actually getting people to do the work that they're already doing in a slightly better way or to feel more confident Mm. about it. Yeah. Yeah. Erm That's still measurable. It's not easy but measurable. H but how I mean how would you For example l like the the interviewing further interviewing skills for the performance . How how would you go about measuring that other than talking to people afterwards about how they feel about interviewing others. But there is no I there anything wrong with that as a way of measuring. Time consuming. Yeah. But you could say, the measure would be, have they gone away and done it ? and their line manager Well they've got to do it anyway. Yes. Well no they don't Well yes they do but But if the line manager if in theory the line manager is taking feedback from them on immediately after the course and then going back to them after three months or six months. And actually talking to them, reviewing it. Then you are building up evidence. And maybe that it is in line with some of the the central targets of their appraisal. That you're automatically gonna be reviewing at six monthly Mm. or ye at least yearly intervals anyway . Mm. It's just gathering the the evidence isn't it really that's difficult So so if it if it was But then that has to be fed back to Yeah. If it was sort of part of the But then information from appraisal is being fed back centrally anyway. If if part of the appraisal was to look at what people had been trained in over the you know, the intervening period. Mm. And to make sure that that was recorded I mean, how they felt about you know, how that had helped them. Then Mm. you know, that could be a sort of central way of getting that back couldn't it if if it can be that sort of you know comments about being more confident, being able to get on with it. Yeah. That sort of data. Yeah cos if there's Cos you might not record that normally. No but if we sa But if we made sure that was recorded, somewhere. I don't know. I still think maybe maybe we shouldn't be doing as much, and we should d be doing a small amount better. Well could well be. The problem is I think if you actually m measure what we do do, Sue, I think the part My observation is, that there's too few of us doing it. Mm. Therefore it falls on all of us, all the time. Which is why I say we run the trainer trainer's course. Mm. And then you can you know, I mean, technically we have expanded cos if you look in in a couple of years there was me and you doing it wasn't there? Mm. So we've now got you know, five of us round the table and Ray and Karen and and whatever. And I think, what I want to do next is actually go through the list, and just check who's gonna, who's gonna run it. And then see how that that comes from there. But I don't think we ought to do this for every course. No. Initially. I think we I think you're right we probably do need to run a workshop. Maybe with somebody in to just just give us a go at it. And then introduce it. And I think by the time we get to Mm. this time next year, yes I think we'll be doing it for everything. But Mm. we're gonna have to build up to it. wonder as well, whether some of us should be putting as much energy into training teachers, and perhaps we should stop doing that and just concentrate on our own staff. Well I thought it was interesting, the boss said yesterday at partnership board, and I suspect he been saying with David , that erm you know, the gap in provision for careers education and guidance in North Yorkshire, is training teachers. Mm. But I don't disagree with you. I think it I I Oh no. said You know my views on that. Mm. That the burden for this falls on us, Yeah. almost totally. Mhm. And I think that's that's wrong. That we don't get any L E A assistance to actually er to do it. Yeah it's always a really isn't it? Well the advisors do nothing do they? Other than sort of do a bit of admin . Mm, So I I don't disagree with that statement. Especially when you're trying your people . I mean . Right. So point noted Cynthia I think, on that. But I'd like people to go away and read this Does it record body language? Right so as I said, Point taken but I'd like people to go away and read it. Yeah okay. And and erm we'll follow that up. Duly noted and warm fuzzy sense in your direction. So That'll now appear in dictionary. As a as a colloquial expression What's that other word that Allan used? Fantabbidabbidosy. I was wondering will that appear . Yeah. Slightly too many syllables there I thought. So the next thing's the trainees analysis that we said we'd we'd pick up on at a later date. Erm but it does include, on module three, unit three point eight. The er the team competency matrix. Sorry can you say again? Three Unit three unit mode module three Module three. unit three point eight. The team competency matrix. it's upside down. There it is. Oh it is yes. ways up . That we have to develop at some stage. I don't think I quite understand this Allan. Well it's a training needs analysis Jayne, so that everybody, you would say, first of all you would look at the job of a careers officer, and say, Right what competencies do they need to use that job. So you would then. Oh right. You would then list the competencies down the The top. the top. Along the top. And then tick off what they've done in the gaps. Oh I see . At that individuals gaps. So you would link all your employment officers in there, do that, and you would see form that whether all your team can er had induction for instance, and who hasn't, whether all your team have erm can do interviewing. Er you know, are competent interviewers, and if they're not, whatever. Mm. P I think that'd be that's really useful actually. Mm. It's interesting that team briefing thing on there, because that's come up a couple of times recently, people have mentioned about erm team briefing as a sort of management system. Have you come across that? I don't really I think I might have come across that before once when I was doing my placement on actually. But erm I know a student who was at B H S, near she was saying how she'd had training for er delivering team briefings. You know it was something that B H S had you know, Mm. gone into and everybody had been trained in this sort of team briefing system. And then at Betty's the other night you know, the was saying about team briefings too. I mean, I mean, we have office meetings you know, But I was thinking if we you know, if I knew sort of what the sort of philosophy was behind it I might be able to incorporate that into, the office meetings and say we were having team briefings. Well anybody want to interpret Well my understanding of team briefings, very quickly, is is to give you an example, after C S M T, what we should do is one of us should actually write down the key points from C S M T that you want to communicate to staff. That is then dished out to line managers. Who then deliver that team brief, in the same way to all members of staff. So that all members of staff get, key elements of communication at the same time. In the same way. mm. Rather than as we probably do at the minute, is you may go back and have a staff meeting whereas Sue may go back and brief Bill, to go and brief, whereas Jayne writes out to all her her senior officers. And you do it six different ways. The idea is that there's one sheet of paper produced, with the key information that's delivered. At the same time preferably to all people within the organization. The other different thing I think is that it's more of a one way communication. Not exclusively No. but it's very much passing information down . Well actually Yeah. when when I first heard about this it was at 's Engines mm. where I did my placement. And they had a system where erm they got this information and they It was that they I think there there was something about the time element, it had to happen at a certain time Mm. on a certain Mm. day. And this information was fed to them. er but then everybody in in working at 's had the opportunity to feed back Mm. to the managing director, who was available at a certain time. Mm. So you know there was this Mm yeah. sort of system for feedback as well. Mm. And questions. I came across I can't remember where it was but I came across somewhere where there was a freephone and people at a g on a given sort of in a given week could all just go and use this freephone number, and ring up and they'd hear a tape recording . you know, Yeah. and have a whinge you know, be available for people to phone you. An oral newsletter. Yeah something like that. I'd go back to this though Allan. The erm Sorry fine . No yeah. Andy 's coming along to the next C S M T Right. to brief on the team briefing method they use in Wakefield. Oh right right. Right That's what he did on his management. I but isn't Wakefield one of those authorities when they're all in a pretty central place. Or is it one where They've got three offices They've got three offices. Mm. Anyway. got our friend. Be interesting to fi to look after their I I P. well I sent you the report didn't I? Mhm. Well I sent you the the initial report just to show you what Yes. what rubbish quality. But I've got the full report. Right. Which is better. This I I can't help thinking with this Allan that we've talked about doing this competency thing and we've perhaps perhaps been a little bit dismissive of it because Mm. we know it's a quite a job. Yeah. But I almost wonder. Er looking at this, if it's actually a lot more central to what we ought to be doing. Because I think if we did this and we actually thought through what competencies e members of staff needed to have, Mm. it would help us rationalize the training provision a little bit, and really target the training provision. I think it could be really he it it'd be worthwhile actually investing some time Surely this been done before. Well careers officers and possibly employment officers as well. Well you you do it to a certain extent you've got descriptions No I don't mean go the govern I mean Nationally. nationally. Nationally. looking at N B Qs and what have you It must be Well it must be it must have been done and er Alison's in involved in that isn't she ? Yeah. Mm. Yeah but it I'm sure it must must have been. Yeah. And that's be a good thing There was something coming through recently about that. There was something about the the I don't know I mean I think it depends how you d whether it is as formal as that or whether you almost do it by saying to er to half a dozen careers officers and half a dozen employment officers, Fill that, you know, Fill that in. No. Wouldn't it fit nicely into the appraisal system? Mm. Well that's the idea as well you see. Mm. I mean you know, if you're talki when you're talking about training needs, if you have something like that it's obviously much more formal isn't it. It helps you focus on exactly what what well I mean it's a bit like the you know, the objectives. Did someone just say that? Yeah. Yeah well that's competency based training isn't it. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway that is something we'll have to develop I think for all all levels of of staff. Erm some time or other. Erm in the next six nine months. As I say we're being slightly dismissive No no alright then. Are you saying that we ought to do you're gonna take this I think this fits into information systems actually. It also Well it should link into that beca well no I was think that And it should fit into you know that big really You know the thing that you're talking about that Cath is doing? You know maybe th that record of training, that actually needs to be analyzed to fit into this framework. Mm. Rather than actually just being purely information courses you did . Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. Erm something else I just thought. What did you just say? management information system. I said I think it fits into the manage . I was thinking about that project and erm but it is total is totally separate. I was being facetious . Oh I know, service specification it fits into as well. No it doesn't. staff need to be competent at le certain levels to product standards. Product delivery yes that's what it's called. No I'd already thought that. I'd already thought that through Sue. I'd thought you know it's wider than that. It's much wider than that . The key to everything . Do you think it fits into B S five seven five O? Spelt. if you think it's so important how can we do it? Well I'll go and lock myself in a hotel room next week. Could you call in on my cousin, just to let her know how I am. I don't disagree I mean I I again it's a key it's a key element to to actually formalizing the training in that I mean, if you're going to do it properly, it all fits into you know I think the appraisal as as I think Jayne said,the appraisal said, I'm competent to do my job in these hm. but I'm not in this. Mhm. Therefore part of the appraisal is setting the target to be competent in the job. I And y you're quite right we actually don't have a list of things, particularly I suspect for employment officers. I think we do for careers officers. And I think you do that in a different way. But I think for employment officers, this would be really useful in the actual development. Mm. If we set ourselves target Hang on we don't I don't think Do we have a job specification for employment officers when we're recruiting No you could be I think you could gather together that information fairly easily for all Mhm yeah. for all staff. And then you could get to use it in the I think we ought I think we ought to ask Alison if she's come across anything Mm. Yeah. in her you know, meetings you know, the national employment officers I wonder if we could set ourselves a target, that we actually include something like this in next year's business plan. But we say this is the these are the competency levels of our staff. So that it would be a means of comparison of our organization with a competitor. To say, Have your staff got these competencies? That does sound like product specification It does fit in with sort of specification and Yeah. product delivery doesn't it really? When you look at it like that . Yeah yeah yeah. Mm. It was just why I'm I mean wi the last meeting we had, took me sort of three pages to write what we've got to do and each item that we've got to do is sort of a couple of sheets of A four. So it's sort of lot of things that we need to do cos But you'd specify everything. But this is very broad headings isn't it. And for e for emplo for employment officers you would have induction, you would have interviewing skills, and you would say you know, we would also we'd be able to see of the training records, what interviewing courses Yeah. they've been on. Erm you would have vacancy handling, erm you would have Telephone. Telephone, answering the telephone , employer work , Erm and i we can envisa I mean they're fairly broad headings Yeah. that you could then discuss in an appraisal what level, and you would have the record system to actually say, Well you've been on you know, the employment officers who went on that marketing course, Mm. One would imagine you would you would now say, They and and have done some evidence to back it up, that that they're now competent . Mm. So you say they're fully competent. Yeah. So you'd say they're fully comp Mm. because they've done this course Mm. and they've done the employer awareness campaign, and they have an understanding . Mm. Mm. Mm. I think it's fairly broad headings that, which is why I think it Yeah it It also gives you a guide to entitlement doesn't it because if you're saying you expecting Yeah at this then they have a ti entitlement to training Mm. to get them to that level. Mm. So it gives you helps with that mm. as well. Targets yes. You know you might say that That's right. Taking that on you might say with interviewing, that you know, You've got to do an interviewing course every three years. Mm. So you would go back people like Shirley who's probably did Mm. maybe done something Mm. four years ago, Right Mm. you're due another Mm. Mm. another session. I don't think it would be No I think that you're right . too difficult Mm. to do it and I think even, looking at the competencies of careers officers you'd probably be able to pick out broad headings. Mm. Mm, yeah. Well you could go I mean you could rather than rather than thirty six pages of that. Yeah . Cos I don't th I mean looking at this it's one two three four five six seven eight nine ten eleven twelve thirteen fourteen fifteen, sixteen competencies there. And that's for an engineering department's head of engineering, so you I I doubt whether a careers officers Shall I go and ask her? Yeah go on then. E and also you know that course that they're doing for employment officers, that B tech course. Mm. Yes Well I say I mean you'd probably you'd get you'd get some of the figures from there. the eight the eight competencies on there I would suggest And presumably the competencies of careers officers are in the part two I'm sorry is that what you said? I mean I was picking the competencies off that er display and marketing guidance, interpersonal skills, group work, library and information work and equal opportunities. Mm. You could pick those. like here there's you know just sort of, induction and things that are common. Yeah, well everybody does the induction Yeah. Yeah. Mm. And if people change pace you know they they need induction as well so Especially seeing as we're we're moving away from the with the with the four to six progression for careers officers, we're moving away from continued assessment post, part two. If we set something up like that, it does give you an opportunity to revisit the competencies that were supposedly achieved during part one and part two. has the word revisit entered our vocabulary now? I'd like to We do not want it in the dictionary. Yeah but it does rather sort of fit the bill doesn't it. it's useful. Mm. I mean let's let's not reject it if it's useful. No. Just a little point That's it. Well I was hoping it'd be interesting I mean I thought this was one of the key things at the training day I went to and I picked Yeah. it up again here, so I didn't mi wish to discuss it like this so as I said it's gonna be twelve months' time. But erm Well you wanted to do it anyway didn't you ? Yes I it's in it's in the the list I did. Well it may not be providing we can actually pull out some still This isn't hard I don't think this would be hard will it? It's easy. Just doing it. I don't think it will be hard, it's finding the time to do it properly. But it may be that what we do is is as you say that we Does that guidance thing give general broad headings? That one. Erm I don't know. I mean they certainly rationalize the c the number of competencies and made them stopped du hopefully they don't duplicate e one another as much as they did Mm. so it's been been tightened up a bit. But I mean are there even broader headings on on that? I don't think So what's a Oh well there's the A B and C isn't there which is Mm. is to do with and D. Is there an E? I think it's sort of employer education sort of guidance and more sort of organizational skills, it's those sorts of groupings I think. Mm. Mm. I've actually done one of these. I worked for last summer and they they did this there, and total quality management meetings . Mm. And they used to work through whatever you'd done, whether you'd done word processing that sort of thing. So and it worked there it was very good . Mhm. Yeah. Mm. But it wasn't So you did it, from what basis, from as a worker? Yeah as a worker . You filled you own in? No they they came round. My manager came round and she just said erm, Have you done word processing? Have you answered the phone? Have you erm filed? and that sort of thing. She just ticked it. W And then at a later date she she would er reassess it and see what else you'd done. And I was only there for four months and . Did they actually check on the level of competence? Yes she yeah she So did she, and w when she said, Have you answered the phone? did she actually sit and listen to you answer the phone? Yeah yeah and she'd phone you up and see how you answered it and that sort of thing. Mm. See that's the other thing we were talking about monitor i monitoring the standards and targets. Actually doing that ourselves. You do that all the time but it's remembering to actually We had a lot of discussion about that didn't we ? Record it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That you'd done it. a few things. Mm. Erm that'll Yeah. That on. Erm stand this is Yeah standards for guidance workers. The key unit. Work with others, manage . And then there's this one as well. An overview of some of the tasks Oh I had a copy of that. Do you think it would come i You know that project that that erm project bid that we put in for. Yeah. Well that's it isn't it. Yeah that's it then. Allan the the money the bid that we put in . Oh right yeah. The bid that we put in for erm looking at I mean wouldn't it wouldn't it come into that to a certain extent. And not that you think you we don't I think they've been told they can't have the money. I think they told they didn't have any money for it. So nobody's got any. But they've then gone back and . I asked Derek yesterday. At the I I wondered if you might ask him. There's very little in there about competency, which is one of the problems with it. Yeah right. Yeah. Oh well that looks as though we've we've got the careers officer one as a kick off point for that don't we ? It does mention competency . What's the left hand column? Erm it's careers officers, careers teachers, careers coordinators, er depending on where you are. Like this is for an L E A careers service, this is secondary education, higher education etcetera. Oh . Oh they're the careers officer ones . Yeah. Mm. Mm. And that be more complex than Yes. other staff wouldn't it? Wouldn't be too difficult would it? Well cos you can take a lot from a job description anyway and er job spec. Could you It's alright we're just gonna Just stick a note Yeah I was gonna say photocopy them. Should I go down and get Well if you get one of each for us all and one for Ray of that page. Yeah. Hang on a minute. Is there anything in there that summarizes the the No I can't well the only thing that I can't I can't You kn you know the core objectives for your course. Yeah. I'm trying to remem you've put me on the spot now. Erm. Actually it's got employment officers in as well. Oh it's got employment officer Yeah and information officer. I can't remember what the headings are. It doesn't seem to say anything. I was just thinking if it was on a page you could have got that photocopied the same time as these and then you know we would have all had one for reference. But I've seen it and sort of. I mean I favour the using that because of the s I mean I like the idea of revisiting the competencies. I think it's good. We could we could probably summarize that The this is that everybody I mean everybody sort o you learn them don't them on probationary year. I mean by the time you get to a two years. It's excuse me can't we make up our own language do we have to use. Do you have to use somebody else's ? I mean surely there are people in the careers ser No competencies are revisited. What should we say instead of revisited? No I it it sort of keeps a sort of continuity in it and I mean I do think when we get to the end of the probationary year you've sort of really learnt all the areas. You know Well those of us who did our probationary year sort of over ten years ago. took you ten years. Yeah. I'm still on my I'm still on If you can get one for all of us plus Ray. That's one two three four No no just get one for me. Cos me and Jayne share the I'll give that to Ray when he comes. Yeah fine. Well that's well that's been useful actually Yeah. Cos we've done that solved that now. Mm. And we've got to take And we haven't got any for clerks or managers we haven't done . No. Managers well. Somebody needs to Leave you out of it. It's then we've got of course and once we've got it, we've gotta take on board the implications in relation to what the training we provide is in relation Yeah. to the the competencies. Are we actually training people to be competent? Yeah. Or are we training to do other things? Yeah Well that's what i say you've all gotta go back to business plan haven't you and and Yeah that's right. the objectives of the organization and I mean I l i think a lot of the things we've got up actual do relate back to to everything that we do. Erm so I'm not unhappy and about competence as well. So I'm not unhappy about the things we've picked up. Where I think you are, where you get into problems with that, are things like, assertiveness training, negotiating, Well assertiveness training is that a competence based thing or not? Well it probably is isn't it? Mm. Interpersonal skill. Mm. Yeah. Yeah. Mm. If you had interpersonal skill down for everybody, cos we all need to have that. Yeah. Then anything like that would come under that wouldn't it? Sort of general Negotiation Personal development Negotiation skills, Assertiveness and sort of thing. So if I get the typists to actually pick out those for individuals on this check list, we'd have it wouldn't we? Well which ones? The ones that we've just Yeah. Well I I felt that that careers the careers officer one, it would be better to use the erm the probationary year competencies. Because that one on there had counselling and group counselling, and er things like that on which aren't really things we're familiar with. You know phrases or terminology that we're familiar with . No but I think that the other stuff gives you. Well all right then what I'll do, I'll get them to do that anyway. As a starter for ten Mm. and then we can alter it. But couldn't couldn't you do one that takes the competencies from the probationary work book and puts that down. No I can't. You know they're just changing don't you. Well isn't that book That this book tells you what the new ones are. Yeah . we just can't can't find at the moment. We've got so many core objectives we've got like A one and it's something like Yeah. there's fewer than there were before. Is there? It used to be about thirty six didn't it? Ah it was ridiculous. Yeah. Core Okay can we move on?please. Yes. Erm the next stage is going on to unit four which is the the actual training plan which I think is where we're we're at today. Erm which on module three, unit four point four at the bottom left. Where? That's it. Oh. Which talks about de organizational development plans, team development plans, personal development plans, and signed off at each level within the organization. level organization. Erm This is the She was good yesterday. Was she? Yeah she actually said something. First time she's ever said anything at at a partnership board meeting. Which was which was done to saying, Yes I agree, I think it's brilliant. And she's written it. She'd written well she didn't been consulted I mean there's a way an you know, there's a consulting and consulting isn't there really. Mm. Did you go and see her? Yeah. Bought me lunch in the garden centre. She Oh that is that one where she expected you a week early? She actually didn't spot the fact that it didn't have the addresses on the er And she's a quarter of an hour late. No because hers did have an address on. Oh right. Anyway so the organization training plan. Erm which I suppose our main focus would be introducing I I P wouldn't it. Erm and then what we're actually going to invest in it. Well I think ours would be broad I I P and T Q M I think, I mean . And we would be actually investing ten thousand plus this year God. I wasn't expecting benefits. Well I think that's the difficulty. I think because this is all expected benefit in in cost. Yeah. Mm. And I'm not sure that we can identify that . You can you know you can't do it No. but you you can say, because people are working more effectively therefore they're more cost effective. Yes. Because if somebody's been on an employer marketing course, and the feel happy about it, they're more likely to do mor employer visits in one day. I'm not sure how that fits in with costings like you know, but you know what I mean. expenditure rather than income isn't it? Whereas if you were a commercial organization where let's say you were selling a product, then you'd expect to see a cost benefit in actual returns. Whereas our only cost benefit is is more better value for money Right. in terms of salaries Yeah. expenditure and so on. Yeah I mean if y if you were a double glazing sales person and what what what were the figures that they ex they think that about one in ten Oh yeah. They think that about one in from one in ten you get something. So therefore if an em an employment officer visited twenty employers in a day instead of ten, er they might have two contracts instead of one. Mm. But because we're not that sort of organization Mm. Okay. So this one actually goes through from the organization to the team, which Deborah will like, through to the individual. So that from the what Su what Sue might happen thinking about it, you're saying the appraisal thing don't actually link in with the tree the team. From the targets from the appraisal Yes. you wouldn't actually get the training. Yeah. By completing one of these, you probably would . It would link the two things together . Yeah. Yeah. Mm. That yeah. The other thing is with the competency f if you w if you were looking at a competency chart with a certain member of staff, and identifying that they were incompetent do you want some more? I don't want any more. I think that's the first cup I've had this morning . But they were less than competent in certain areas. Then that's that's more likely to be a target. Cos there are things they can do themselves. I'm not sure I still think it would come out in the section about training needs rather than necessarily . Yeah. It's interesting trying to get Yeah there's one from Rick Okay. Mm. I should think people other people would be much more feel much more competent as well. You know you were saying after that training day,admin assistants do have this . Yeah. Yes. To link in with the target . It's more specific isn't it . Yes it would I would find that very helpful. Right so on on top of all this, we've actually got as Sue's mentioned quite a few times, we've actually got to keep the damn thing afloat, well after introducing all this. And and I think continue to deliver erm the training erm so far along. Mm. Now it's quite interesting w I went to erm an I I P meeting with on the the course that that you were sick. Mm. And then Jayne filled in the first day . That I missed yes. Erm Lincolnshire Mm. were there. And they've been doing it eighteen months longer than us. Didn't seem to be any farther along. Didn't seem to be any farther along. Were naive enough to think they could get through it without having an appraisal system, which I could not believe. Could not believe he expected to get it through without having a formal appraisal system. And had been salvaged when they'd had a sort of a a mock assessment. dog. And looking at this I think obviously, if this is the level they're going to assess at, Mm. It's it's fairly ha fairly high high standard isn't it? Yeah . A fairly high level and we've got a bit to go ourselves I think. Mm. Erm but this seems to be When are we looking at? a n a noddy guide for Yeah. for actually moving Which which is why really at that th for the development funding they did the didn't particularly want I I P supporting because it is so structured and a lot of it is on a plate in a sense. I mean it's all very that it's it's there it's actually putting in in place. But a lot of the thinking through has already been done hasn't it really. When have we said we're likely to have Well I I said Christmas. Yeah. Erm with a view to saying really, providing we've got it in by the first of April next year Yeah. erm I won't be too unhappy, but the idea will be of course not t not to go in if you're not gonna get it. Mm. Mm. Cos I think I think that'll be a real downer and plus it'll cost us about three grand. Yeah. but they do sort of come in and give you some idea don't they? Yes they'll do a pre-assessment for you, and Cath who's our local'd come in and say, Yes, No. Is she our new person now ? Yeah. Is she Oh yeah And I said to her, I've seen her in July sometime or June or something like that. To actually erm I'd gather the evidence of how far down the line we are for her, saying that would that would be a a six monthly check. With six months to go, to say, Well we've got this evidence. Erm Yeah twelfth of July. And I said I'd try and put some evidence together of exactly what we've got. Mm. By then. The assessment is really th them talking to the staff isn't it ? Well that's that's the problem but I think a lot of this will be the evidence we'll need to show what we're doing. There is there's a lot of in that at erm cos erm You know it was I I wasn't really pleased about but it was a good evening. Andy was there who's the I I P one of the I I P people and he was saying,exactly what it was, but it was much greater talking to people than paperwork Yes. on the assessment. Yeah. Is it seventy five, twenty five? Something like that. But they're going to say, if they're talking to Liz, presumably the trainer as well as a person, you know, what As well as a person. As an employee. You know are you doing objectives and showing your objectives Yeah. when you're doing courses. Mm. As well as saying to people, When you were on the course, could you clearly state what the objectives Monday thirtieth May nineteen eighty three. You've forty one years past service in the lighthouse board George. Yes that's correct. I was forty one years and several months in the lighthouse service. Now could you differentiate between the the various types of lighthouses? Well there's a lot of there's the land stations which are near towns or and then there's the isl there were the island stations and then the rock stations. Island stations the families were on them. All the families were on for except the three weeks holiday during the year they were marooned on these islands all the time. And the rock stations of course there were various types of rocks such as Skerrymor and Bass Rock and Bell Rock and and er quite a few rocks stations. So I think we had twelve twelve rock stations er what we called rock stations. Now how many rock stations in your forty one years did you actually serve on? Er well only two er and Skerrymor but I was er three year because it was called a rock station or a relieving station was a big island the island of Rhona seven miles long when the sea wasn't near the tower at all but er and Skerrymor the sea was battering round the towers all the time. Now what is the precise location of Skerrymor? Well it's about er twelve miles from Tiree and er about er three hours steaming from Oban where the relief boat was the relief ship. And when were you actually stationed on Skerrymor? Er from nineteen er forty eight to nineteen fifty one. Three years. Can you describe the actual lighthouse? Well the tower is er I'm not quite sure about the exact height of it it's I think it's a hundred and over a hundred and fifty feet high er the to the top of the dome I think it's a hundred and fifty three feet high to the top of the dome. And er the tower is solid for forty feet from the rock. Er I don't know how deep it is going in the base in the foundation I think it's about twenty feet to the foundation. And every stone in that building weighs about a ton and it's er each stone is dovetailed into the next stone and right into the centre it's no lot of er solid buildings are just a a circumference of er stone and then grit in between you know but this is solid right right down to the centre to the keystone in the centre. And that's solid for forty feet up. Then there's er the door the door at forty feet and there's er a gunmetal ladder going up the forty feet you've got to climb up to get into the door. Mm. I believe the walls at the the foot are somewhere in the region of nineteen feet thick . They're nineteen feet thick at the door. Mm. And then there's er the the storm doors which are pulled in er during stormy weather and the the doors are oh about six inches th each plank and it's about six inches thick. You've got to haul them in with a winch. And these storm doors are closed when the gale is threatening heavy seas on and there's another door inside that about eight feet inside that another heavy door and then there's another ordinary door inside that. There's three sets of doors at the at the entrance. Then the bottom compartment there are two er water tanks. Er take about two thousand gallons each. For fresh water ? Fresh fresh water aye fresh water and er the water it comes ashore with the ship you know and hoisted Mm. up in firkins in seven gallon firkins hoisted up by a winch. Er that was when I was there but now it's pumped ashore with well by hose from the ship you know and er they put water in about once or twice a year. Can you recall the layout of the living quarters etcetera? Yeah well er there as I said the first er compartment after at the door is the water tanks. Mm. Two water tanks. The next compartment is where they have ten tons of coal in er bunkers. And the next er compartment is the is the storeroom where er the food is er kept. The next compartment is a workshop a lathe and various tools there. Next is the kitchen or their living room. The next is a flight of bedr er flat of bedrooms two bedrooms two bunks in each bedroom. And the next's another the next flat is er also two bedrooms and er next er flat again is the library which was a magnificent room. Er it was the whole s tower from the from the er the coal cellar. It was actually lined in oak right up to the to the light room. Most of the stations are lined in pitched pine but this is lined in beautiful oak and oak panelling and er. Then after the the well there's er the library as they called it was lined with books leather bound books great big kidney shaped oak table and beautiful chairs there and we used it as the office you know for the principal keeper did his returns and all the rest of it there. And er then er after that there was the gun room or the magazine where they stored the ammunition for the gun and er then the light room. And the light room the machine case where the machine for revolving the five the lens which er weighed about five tons and there were this machine revolved the lens and it was machine was solid brass erm just which had to be polished e e every week and er oh beautiful brass polished brass and nobody ever saw these things you know except maybe the commissioners when they came round no no visitors there . You were stationed there in nineteen forty five. Nineteen forty five yes. And that was your first posting as a principal . A principal keeper yes that's correct. What were your er reminiscences of the station the lighthouse at that time? Well I was after coming off and er I was quite used to the rocks you know that type of er station so. But er well it's nothing really important about the reminiscences there. Mm. Er it was I really don't think of anything outstanding. Say on the subject of shipping at that time. Can you recall the type of vessels? Oh the vessels they were quite well out from us. Er they er in the days of sailing ships of course they were they were really they were it was really a dangerous place. Cos if they were beating against the wind and and there were three wild reefs about three miles off. There was er the who was called after a Frenchman who invented some type of lenses and er the MacKenzie who was one of the engineers did the building of Skerrymor one of the surveyors or something. And then the er Stevenson which of course the famous light one of the famous lighthouse engineers. The three reefs oh well they were very very dangerous reefs. You could just see them at low water and er that was one of the danger points but I've never seen ships coming close to Skerrymor at all. But when I was there there were once one instant is er er the man on watch in the morning he spotted a floating mine come in right down to close to the rock and er er it anchored just about er er a quarter of a mile or maybe two hundred yards off the rock off the tower and er of well when a mine anchors of course it becomes er alive. When it was floating of course the the when the an when it holds it pulls the detonator something to do with a mag with er with the mechanism of it er. So it was swinging back and forth almost coming to the rock and we thought well if that mine goes off that's the end of it. And of course I er wirelessed the office headquarters in Edinburgh told them about this so they sent a mine sweeper out from Tobermory. There were some mine sweepers still floating about there. And er they went into instead of coming to Skerrymor and said there was no mine there and they turned back to Tobermory again. And we were left with a mine there. And obvious phoned er radioed to said their ship was we never saw it of course. Went twelve miles from us to . Er some navi navigators aboard that boat. So then er er one morning the there was a very heavy swell on and the anchor must have given way and it w we saw the mine floating away towards Tiree so where it went after that we never heard. Thank goodness for that. Aye. How many keepers George were stationed at Skerrymor in your day? Er four four keepers. There were three men on the rock and one man ashore. And every second month they the occasional keeper the relieving keeper came out local man he came out to make up the two men then went ashore to cover the cover the the reliefs like that. Mm. And where was the actual relief station? The relief station was at Eredine. But originally it was er for Skerrymor was in Hynish and when er was built they they changed the they took the keepers from Skerrymor to Ered Mm. so there's two the keepers from the both rocks were in stationed in ashore at Ered. And is another lighthouse out from Collessie? Out from Collessie it's about twelve miles from Iona. Mm. Now one commentator I believe it was the the foreman mason involved in the building of Skerrymor described the landing on the rock as being like climbing up the side of a bottle. Yes I I heard of that but I er I think it was Sir Walter Scott actually that said that. But er yes it was it could be and there was a blow hole there as well. They they sent a fountain of er water right up into the air. Now of course they were drenched with this water sump water coming from this blow hole. But that was er they put a charge in that and years afterwards and of course. The blow hole was still there when I was there and you see fountains of water coming out of it. But nothing like what was originally when they were building the tower. Can you describe the actual landing process for supplies and men? Well there was a grating er which was about er oh about er thirty five yards long out to a reef. And there were pillars going out from it to the rocks er grouted into the rocks. This is a form of jetty? Just a form of jetty just a grating which is a form of jetty and we put a a derrick up on the end of it. And when the sh when the relief came in the ship lay about a mile off the never came near the rock at all because it was just a mass of reefs you know and the ship lay about a mile off and then the launch came in with a crew of about half a dozen men and the officer the second mate usually in charge. And then about quarter of a mile off the grating they drop their kedge their anchor and they came in then and then there were two ropes er thrown to them then. The the anchor rope was and the and the breast called the breast rope and then there's a rope from us on each er the bow and the stern. And it was very very poor holding ground and there was a man on the anchor rope or there was a man on the three ropes on the crews on the three ropes. And er when the anchor man always had his hand on the rope you know and you'd hear him saying, Anchor coming home sir anchor coming home sir. And the engine man he was on his knees beside the engine the engine was sticking over and the officer was in charge watching when we was watching the boat coming towards the grating you know. Then you'd hear him shouting, Let go and the two men let go of the two ropes on the grating and the engine man was shot out and went back and picked up the anchor and reset it and sometimes reset two or three times during the relief. Is there not something of a permanent swell running in that vicinity? Yes on the west side of the rock there's a permanent swell running there. There's one small landing you can er you can do in the in the west landing they called it. Er they you can very fine day you can make a relief there. If there was a swell on the east side where the the grating but there was also a gully landing which you get into the gully but it had to be a very fine day to get into the gully and there was a derrick there er you could a crane there that you could take everything out of the boat but it had to be a very fine day to get into the gully. Tell us something about the provisions in your day. In my day well every man had an allowance er and we bought our own provisions but every man er they were supposed to be by the commissioners but you got I think seven and six pence a day each man got seven and six pence and we clubbed that money together and bought our provisions er like that. But there was three months er commissioners put three months supply of what they called iron rations onto the rock. Er a bowl of flour and er and er so many kists of bully beef and er I think that was about all they they supplied er which wasn't taken. But we if we used a tin of bully beef we had to supply that tin of bully beef out of our own seven and six pence. We used the flour because the flour would go bad then we we had to supply that the commissioners put it in originally but we had to keep it going out of our seven and a tanner. And er then but oh we kept er quite a good food to ourselves. Did the keepers receive an additional sum resembling danger money? Oh yes you got er I think it was about er about twenty pounds a year we got er for for er r rock allowance they called it. Over and above the seven and six pence a day. Can you recall in the past years the keepers ever receiving beer or whisky allowance . Oh no they got no whisky but they got er Eversons be when the rocks were started first when the commissioners started the rocks first the Bell rock was the first. And er then Skerrymor and then you had there was erm a supply of beer er er allowed to each rock. Each man got a quart of b was allowed a quart of beer a day. And there then this was discontinued in they gave this beer to keep for lack of exercise keep them regular. And er then in nineteen sixteen er beer was getting dearer and dearer of course and commissioners decided to stop the beer and stop the beer and er increase the epsom salts in the medicine chest double the epsom salts in the medicine chest . And did you ever hear of tensions building up amongst the men? Oh yes very often tensions building up among the men. And I never had any problem at all when I was there but some of the keepers had. Er I remember one fellow er I think I can safely mention them now but they're both dead anyway. Two first cousins from the Caithness area and er their their grandfather left a croft to the youngest son and these two first cousins were on the rock on Skerrymor and er the principal keeper he was an Orkney man. He wakened sometime during the night and he heard this scrummage up in the in the light room. He went up and here there's two first cousins were fighting about the croft and that was left about fifty years before then started fighting about it and one had got transferred to and that kept it quiet. Doubtless there were many occasions night and day when a tempest was raging outside. Now what was it like to be actually in the tower itself? You never thought anything about it at all. You knew the seas were hitting the tower but you you had great faith in the stability of the tower. You never gave it a slightest thought. Was there a problem with communications to one another? Not when I was there of course it was er it was er er radio was there you know and we we called up the shore station at Ered at nine o'clock one o'clock and five o'clock every day unless there was er a fault in the radio which we were usually able to overcome. And the noise of the sea itself how was that affected ? Oh it could could be never bothered er. Well I've seen er the it's receiving er message and suddenly the message cutting out the sea going right over the aerial. And er the aerial was out the window and up the side of the tower. The sea hitting that was about fifty sixty feet up. And the sea hitting it there and cutting out you know and then of course when the sea went off you established communication again. What pressure of er water might be hitting the base of the tower? Well er er they er took tests both there and at and the er the in summer gales the pressure was three tons to a square foot and in winter gales six tons to a square foot. So that is pretty hefty you know when but of course it was dispersed round the tower you know it didn't hit in one lump you know. Was there an actual sway in the tower itself? Oh yes there was an actual sway in the tower. You could you couldn't feel it if you're standing on the middle of the floor but when you went up to the grating with your chest on the grating you could feel the tower swinging away back from you I don't know what er distance probably maybe twelve inches maybe more I don't know. But you could feel the sway of the tower when in a in a heavy gale of wind. Not the seas not from the seas. When the sea struck it it was terrific you know the whole tower trembled and you'd think a giant got a hold of her and shook the whole thing up. But when there was a strong gale of wind er the er tower swayed a lot. I recall reading that I think it possibly was Skerrymor or Cape Wrath but it was stated that the pendulum clock actually stopped. Yes that was on Skerrymor on Skerrymor. that was a swing. Is that a fairly common phenomenon ? Oh yes quite common the pendulum clock stops quite often used to stop quite often with the wind. And they're no pendulum clocks there now but they were there when I was there. Oh I've often seen the clock stopping. And were there things coming of the walls for instance? No no never never. Mm. We never had anything on the walls anyway . I see. Now we haven't mentioned the affect of fog. In your days on Skerrymor in the mid-forties there would not be a foghorn. No foghorn but it was an explosive form of signal station. Er we had er cartridges a quarter of a pound in each cartridge and er there was a tubular what we called the gun going right up. It was geared on the top of the dome and er it was really er a gal gal galvanized tubes you know. And they were then there was an electric cable coming from the top with two clips in the top and this cable came right down into the into the balcony door. And you attached this quarter pound of to it then you hoisted it back up and there was a clock in the light room which struck every five minutes and every time the clock struck you fired the charge. And that er explosive charge could be heard sometimes at thirty miles away. And some times the ship would be come in quite close to us and couldn't hear anything. Of course it's the same thing with the foghorns. Er sound is very difficult you know like that to your never quite sure the way it goes. Was this not something of a fire hazard? No no no the I don't think so. But have you ever heard of towering inferno style lighthouse f fires? Well er er the Skerrymor went on fire after I left it. Er about er what would it be about six or seven years after I left Skerrymor it went on fire. They but they don't know what caused that fire er they reckon it was an electrical fault from the generator that er supplied the it was a s a fifty watt bulb in each room and there was mainly for the radio. A little Stewart Turner engine er two or three about five horse power or something. And it was on the balcony in a in a porch on the balcony to prevent fire so it wouldn't go on fire. Petrol engine and it er what caused that fire this night in Skerrymor they don't know. The man wasn't watching the light room he saw smoke coming up under the so he went away down and there was a fire in a in the er in the library. And er of course he alerted the other two fellows and there were no fighting there was only about two little fire extinguishers on the tower. And er there were well they had to get water up from the from the bottom t ladder in pails and three men er with pails trying to and of course they couldn't fight it. And they fought the fire until they were finally er had to go out of the tower altogether. And they were very fortunate it was a fine night and they were able to take refuge down among the reefs and the hole. Then there there was about a thousand rounds of tonnite in the gun room in the magazine. That er exploded the detonators there and exploded the whole thing. And er the explosion went right out through the through the trap ladder into the light room and blew the lantern out. And er it also did a rent about I don't know what about fifteen twenty feet deep that's all it did in the wall. And er but of course the whole force of the explosion went right up in the light room. And the whole thing was wrecked the whole the the erm the floors in each er flat was one big circle of stone er about er it would've been about twelve probably are aware of in any event is that there is a facility for sandwiches laid on and I I think you've all been told about it. Er if you want to take er use of that facility then if you haven't done so you'd better do so fairly quickly. Now I today we are going to look at er I five and I twelve which deal with employment land allocations office space and services. The matters for discussion are s spelt out but just so that you're under no illusions to what we are aiming to talk about, first issue, first matter is is the proposed provision and distribution of employment land for district councils and Greater York, the reason bearing in mind the need to provide sufficient land for employment in appropriate locations and the second matter is what effect if any will the proposed scale on provision have on adjoining areas in West Yorkshire. But we'll start quite logically with the first matter. I would ask Mr Williamson, I presume you you're leading for the County Council today to er take us through I five and I twelve. Mr Williamson. Thank you Chair. Could I just say before I start, I apologize in advance while I'm on the air if there there are any inadvertent s coughs and little bit of a cold don't want to deafen anybody while er the volume was up. Gentlemen, er Ken Williamson, North Yorkshire County Council. In establishing its parameters for employment land provision of county in its eight constituent districts, the County Council's intention has been to sustain and improve the economic wellbeing of the county by ensuring that continuous supply and a wide choice of sites can be made available. The aim has been to ensure as far as possible employment opportunities are not lost or unduly constrained simply because there is a shortage of suitable sites. Such an approach is in the County Council's view, entirely consistent with government policy as set out in Planning Policy Guidance Notes, particularly in P P Gs four and twelve. Forecasting employment land requirements over a period of fifteen years is of course a difficult exercise at any time. The current exercise has been no exception and the task has not been made any easier by the current level of economic uncertainty and its implications for the future size and structure of employment and unemployment at the end of the plan period. In the circumstances, the County Council has sought to provide district councils with as much flexibility as possible in allocating sufficient land and to ensure that local plan preparation is not unduly constrained by an unrealistically low . Formulating these proposals, the County Council's avoided placing undue reliance on a purely technical approach to forecasting future land requirements. Such an approach is considered to be increasingly unreliable and subject to significant variations depending upon the assumptions made. The County Council's has op has opted instead to base its proposals on a wider ranging assessment which, while not discounting economic activity based projections, gives greater weight to levels and rates of land take-up, as well as knowledge of the structure and strengths and weaknesses of the local economy. The County Council believes this approach represents the most appropriate way forward in assessing long term employment land requirements. It provides district councils with a generous allocation , but not so generous in the County Council's view as to prejudice the counc the county's interests and by sterilizing land which is unlikely to be taken up or by promoting without due regard to the consequences for housing and services. Nor does the County Council believe that it will have any noticeable effect on the objectives of the adjoining authority in West Yorkshire. has the full support of six of the eight North Yorkshire district councils. Five districts Craven, Hambleton, Ryedale, Scarborough and York, the approach is sections of the local community including significantly the industrial and commercial organizations in these areas. Certainly representations have been made er which express any disagreement with the proposals in in those areas. In Richmondshire there are differences between the County Council and the District Council on the appropriate scale of employment provision amounting to about ten hectares. In Harrogate District two opposing views have been expressed, Harrogate Civic Society seeking a reduction in the allocation by at least we think of er something in the order of ten hectares, David Lock and Associates expressing the view that at least a hundred, a hundred plus a hectares should be allocated. The County Council does not however believe there is a justifiable case for moving towards any of the different positions sought by these objectors. As far as the Greater York area is concerned, objections have been lodged by Leeds City Council and by Montague Evans on behalf of a group of parish councils in Selby District adjoining York. Both consider the proposed scale of allocations to be excessive. The County Council not unexpectedly er does not agree with either submission. The allocation to Greater York has in fact been derived by extensive joint working between the County Council and the five Greater York districts. The Greater York authorities are satisfied that a hundred and forty five hectares represents an appropriate overall land allocation for the area in the context of its sub- regional importance as an employment centre, a need for greater flexibility in terms of providing land for new industrial and commercial uses, the relocation requirements of existing firms, the amount of land already committed and the opportunities for employment related development identified through the Greater York study. In respect of the proposals for Selby District, the County Council recognizes that the district has a particularly narrow economic base. It is very heavily dependent on jobs in the primary sectors, agriculture, coal mining and power generation, all of which are currently undergoing significant and extensive structural changes and rationalization. This has undoubtedly experienced si significant rise in unemployment. Nevertheless, the County Council believes it has gone as far as its possibly can to recognize and respond to the district's problems, and that it cannot justify moving any closer in reducing the gap between the recommended allocation of a hundred and thirty two hectares and the two hundred to two hundred and fifty hectares which are requested the District Council. Other objectors to the County Council's proposals, namely Leeds Council, Montague Evans and J C Cunnane, believe that they already represent a bridge and indeed several bridges too far. At this juncture Chairman er it is I think worth reemphasizing that the County Council is progressing a further selective alteration to the structure plan, not a fundamental review of the strategic approach or indeed the policies which give effect to it. I think it's necessary to stress this since a number of representations have referred specifically to the constraints which the locational strategy embodied in policy I five on the ability to deliver the proposed structure plan on employment land allocation. It shows to some extent the City was tied up with the erm issue of whether or not the structure plan should include a major exception to or indeed a strategic exception to policy. This of course is er scheduled to be discussed in the context of policy two erm the proposed open countryside policy tomorrow. It is however I think relevant to the debate on policies I five and I twelve, to the extent that the County Council adjustments to the wording of policy I five which would provide for the distributional strategy and its emphasis on directing development to locations in and adjacent to main urban areas, main towns and small towns, to be modified so as to pe permit major employment allocations to be made elsewhere and indeed on a scale which effectively improved distributional strategy. So to conclude these opening remarks, the County Council believes the level of employment land provision it proposes is necessary to meet the existing and projected employment needs and to ensure the local economy is not constrained by a lack of land for employment purposes. Whilst it is accepted that the total provision for the County, erm five hundred and sixteen hectares about twenty five he per cent above the approved plan provision, the County Council considers this is justified on the basis that it provides the most generous level which can be justified on the information which is available and at a time when changes in the distribution of business use are to say at the least unpredictable. The County Council therefore Chairman recommends its employment land proposal to the panel. Can I say Chairman that erm my colleague erm Mr Potter i is our technical resident technical expert and er I'm sure he'll be happy to er to take on board any of the particular queries on the methodology that's been adopted . Mr Williamson, were you proposing to briefly outline the methodology or w shall we take it as read? Well er I wasn't Chairman, er Mr Potter I think is Yes. quite prepared to do that, erm . to be raised in in by various participants during the course of the discussion. The other point I have is N Y ten, can you tell me what erm we make of that one? I presume everybody's got this N Y ten. Yes, yes. The er Introduce yourself. Sorry er David Potter, North Yorkshire County Council. The original calculations which are outlined in er N Y six are based on assumptions which were available at the time which were based on the eighty one census essentially, those calculations form the basis of the consultation plan and the deposit plan. At the time the committee considered representations of the deposit plan, we had available to us revised projections based on the ninety one census, also information available from the ninety nine planning census of employment and based on a number of er representations made to me formally and informally, I revised the assumptions to er incorporate ninety one census data and to in fact stretch the assumptions er in terms of their general . The indications of that er in terms of the figures affect only one district, significantly Selby. Mhm. And so that, the charts you have in front of you represent the justification of all the changes to Selby's figures. Erm if I can add at this time there is in fact an error on the final table on that er Table Table nine. Table nine. Where the Greater York splits is incorrect. Yes. It w the purpose of table nine is to try and determine the rest of district allocation. That rest of district allocation's correct. The Greater York element unfortunately is not. The formula in table eight was not carried forward into table nine. I have a revised version which will cancel . Well can you give us the figures now? Certainly information. Is that the only correction to be made to table nine? That is the only correction I wish to submit to table nine yes . Yes. Then I think er it may come up later, Mr Cunnane has identified er an error in the Selby figure, erm but I I don't wish to change that because that was the the figure that was considered as one . Can you tell us what the revisions would be? The revisions it was correct. I understand Yeah. that this Yes. Yes. Yes. Right,bear with me a moment. The terms of the table nine you have before you er as far as Harrogate is concerned, instead of one point zero three, it should be two point one seven. The Ryedale figure should be amended from twelve point zero four to sixteen point three two. The Selby figure should be amended from thirteen point three to fourteen point two six and the York figure from sixty one point six to ninety six point eight eight and the Greater York figure from eighty seven point three to one two seven point six two. changes on the other t table which has er worked out at thirty four per hectare. Yes. is amended from one point three for Harrogate to two point seven four. From fifteen point two three to twenty point six three That's for Ryedale. Sorry yes for for Ryedale. Could you repeat the figure again? From Ryedale it's from fifteen point two three to twenty point six three. From Selby from fifteen point eight six to sixteen point nine one. And from York, it's from seventy seven point nine one to a hundred and twenty two point five three. One two two point nine three ? Sorry a hundred sorry a hundred and sixty one point, from from York it's from seventy seven point nine one to a hundred and twenty two point five three. Fine. And from Greater York it's from a hundred and ten point four one to a hundred and sixty one point four one. They don't affect the policies because the split was never carried forward into the policy we simply adopted the Greater York study findings. Can you tell very briefly please why the Ryedale figures don't change in the same as, and the Selby figures, don't change in the same sort of way as the figures for other districts? Erm clarify ? For example, in the first column, Greater York figure is more or less doubled. Yeah. Harrogate figure has more or less doubled, Selby is slightly increased, Ryedale is slightly increased. It's to do with the way the er the totals are calculated in table eight, erm the split is divided in totals of the proportion of Greater York and the rest of the district. In different proportions . Do you just want to touch on I twelve as well Mr Williamson, before we in a general discussion? Thank you Chairman er Ken Williamson, County Council. Erm I think er we are er as happy with I twelve provisions having in that policy as we are with I five. Erm again I think the general feeling is that taken together can can you move the microphone Thank you nice to hear what he says, thank you th that would help. I think you need to . Yeah. Thank you Chairman I I think er as far as I twelve's concerned the County Council's er reasonably happy with that er er policy as it stands, and I think most people erm not all but but certainly the majority of people who er commented on that, commented in a sort of an affirmative way, erm again the provisions of the policy as they are hopefully reworded will er promote the same sort of flexibility and generosity that erm policy I five . Do you regard provision in accord with point one as being part of the provision provided for N I five? No Chairman, we we don't. So it is addition. It will be a separate er wh whatever. I mean the the policy as proposed er doesn't have any any particular figures er specific parameters in it. they are No I appreciate that but they are additional to the provisions of I five. Is that the interpretation that district councils have put upon I five I twelve I wonder? I can't hear a knock. Who's going to speak for the districts? Mr Curtis. David Curtis, York City Council. Yes the districts have been working on the basis that I twelve is an additional provision to I five. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for that Mr Williamson. Well ladies gentlemen, the floor is yours. Who would like to start? Mr Curtis are you Yes thank you. you left your plug out. My mistake sir. David Curtis, York City Council. should I make a speech? Very briefly I would just like to make a statement that er clearly as you'll see from our representations er er on the on the plan submission, the City Council does support the County Council's er approach to employment land provision both for the City of York and for Greater York. Particularly we do accept the the calculations that the County have used, they way in which they've used both economic activity projections and also land-take. And also we think they sensibly looked at the actual provision of sites in areas which have proved popular for employment and which do not compromise environmental objectives. It's very important to recognize that York although a historic city as I mentioned er in the previous discussion, erm is a er is an industrial city with a significant number of employment problems, in particular in the rail engineering industry where we see a rapid er contraction of er what was Brown which is now A B B, clearly continuing problems in the rail industry with the er problems most certainly caused by privatization and also major job reductions in er firms such as Rowntrees and Terrys in the confectionery industry. The work that we've done on er the economy of the city, based on economic analysis which has been submitted as part of my findings, erm shows quite clearly a continued shift away from manufacturing towards service employment and a continuing need to promote new planned opportunities in locations well suited to the needs of the market. Our estimate is that the city itself needs something in the order of five thousand jobs over the period of the structure plan to er really just to stay still, to run to run to stand still. Therefore the analysis that we've done, which is an economic analysis, actually supports the level of er calculation the County Council have produced for land requirements for the city. Unfortunately as we saw earlier with the housing discussions, we are very much a pint pot as the analogy was used and that a quart just can't be fitted into it. Therefore we accept that the actual provision within the city er will have to be considerably less than the calculated requirement for the city. The only issue that I think we have some er difficulty with in the policy as it stands at the moment, is the uncertainty that arises between the figure provided in policy I five of forty six hectares for the city, and actually our agreed calculation which I think the County Council accept, that site availability in the city is limited to something in the order of thirty three hectares if we exclude er one site which is subject to a dispute between parties er in relation to the greenbelt. But it is included in the deposit plan of the greenbelt by the County Council, that's greenbelt land, so I think bearing in mind what the the panel said the other day, I can accept this discussion that for the time being we assume that is in the greenbelt. And if we exclude that site, the maximum capacity of the city is in the order of thirty three hectares. Clearly the policy does allow for additional provision to be made outside the city in the remainder of Greater York, and that is the basis upon which the the City Council has accepted the a hundred and forty five hectare figure for Greater York. And as you will see from the County Council evidence, the er sites for them have actually been agreed during the Greater York study. So the only point on I five that I would er ask for clarification on really is that the policy be amended to clarify that the actual provision in the city be thre be thirty three hectares as I've indicated that is the physical capacity as far as we're concerned. Turning quickly into I twelve. Erm we agree entirely with the County Council's proposal to delete erm job targets or targets from the policy. This does s seem to be in line with with practice nationally at the present time. We will be making provision within our local plan for a number of erm office sites,office sites in and around the City Centre, we have identified those sites erm, I don't wish to go into those but if the panel wish to further information on those I could. But basically they will be something in the order of eighty thousand square metres worth of commercial sites in and around the city centre, on sites which we have agreed are suitable for office use. They tend to be mainly on sites being recycled from existing industrial activities er which are no longer appropriate in the city centre, things like motor traders and that kind of ac activity. So conclude briefly there in that the City Council does support the the broad thrust of the County's two policies here but we would ask for clarification on I five on the actual level of provision we should be providing on our local plan. Thank you Mr Curtis. Now just to clarify in my mind about, here I'm looking at the summary of your submission, you actually refer to the fact that sixty three hectares are required to meet the needs of the city, whereas I take it you say this morning that you're happy with the forty six, er but in reality you can only get thirty three ac thirty three hectares within the city. Now which which figure are we to talk about? Is it forty six s or sixty three? David Curtis, York City. Ye Yes in fact obviously with the revised information Mr Potter has , the sixty three seems to have changed anyway now. But erm the forty six is an artificial figure, it represents neither the capacity of the city nor the calculated needs, so I would not wish to er have this figure of forty six in our York plan because it doesn't actually relate to either. The calculated need figure being what? The calculated need figure as submitted by the County Council was sixty three hectares Yes. which I was saying I was happy to accept. I note that the approved structure plan contains a similar sort of approach to York, I E its need is greater than its capacity and the policy in the approved plan recognizes that some of the provision will not be in York itself. Has that formed a satisfactory basis for planning? Mr Curtis. David Curtis, York City Council. It is difficult to actually say that it has formed a satisfactory basis because in in effect, the amount of land that has come forward in the city has been below the the figure that was allocated in the original structure plan. You'll see from the tables submitted by Mr Potter on past land-take that we've actually provided less than the twenty six hectares even, that's because the opportunities did not arise. Clearly as we discussed earlier in the week, erm the opportunities in the city will be on recycled land. The reason why we're having to go to a higher figure now is there are two major areas of land, er one is the land behind the railway station, the British Rail land, and the other is the land at a a location called St Nicholas Field, a former household waste site, both of which we are taking steps to bring forward for development. Therefore we believe that during the plan period, those sites are likely to come forward and make a improved contribution to meeting our share of the Greater York employment needs. I would have to say that erm in broad terms, that the existing policy has been acceptable erm in er terms of a planning basis for the city. There is a si a significant difference between the two policies though, in that the wording of the revised policy is much more specific about saying part of our need will be found elsewhere, whereas I five as in the approved structure plan merely makes reference to the fact that all of our requirement will be found in Greater York. You may find that just a subtle difference but I think that in terms of the way erm make allocation in our local plan, that it does cause some confusion. Yes. Erm my reference was in part to the Secretary of State's notice of approval of the last alteration of the structure plan, where he said he accepted that some of the provision York provision would have to made outside the ci city boundaries. I'm still left wondering whether this sort of statement in policy is in accord with the advice now contained in P P G twelve about the guidance the structure plan should provide to a local planner, and put my cards on the table, wonder whether it wouldn't actually be more to say if York can only provide thirty three hectares, that should be the provision first in York? So as to remove the uncertainty about erm what in effect is a sort of black box floating around perhaps attached to a hot air balloon somewhere over York. David Curtis, York City Council. Erm yes, well I I think that's a perfectly sensible way forward. I'm perfectly happy to accept a figure for York of thirty three hectares. Clearly reference can be made in the to the fact that that is not all of York's requirements but the balance is being found elsewhere within Greater York, and I would be perfectly happy with that. I wonder if Mr Saunders has a view. Les Saunders, D O E. I'm afraid you've stolen all my thunder, erm you've said everything that I wanted to say . Erm We both read P P Gs. I am aware that the the Secretary for the erm er Secretary of State's approval letter to the area alteration does make reference to erm an element of York's provision erm being found outside the district's boundaries. That was the best, at least I understand that was the best the Secretary of State could do at the time. Erm, matters have moved on from than then in terms of the er additional P P G guidance which I think makes it quite clear, as as you've already s said that erm we should be as transparent as possible in our allocations and levels for provision for employment development. Erm so that it would be in our view desirable that the level of provision for York was that which was realistic to er to accommodate, in this case it appears to be thirty three hectares and that the er the a additional element should be located in in or between the other districts in the Greater York area. Erm the this C I P and the panel's consideration en enables them to actually reach a view on that and and hopefully come forward with recommendations. If does, perhaps I should ask, does the County Council accept that a t more transparent position would be a logical conclusion? Mr Chairman, Ken Williamson, County Council. Erm I think if we could get there, obviously our our aim er would be to provide er as clearer level of guidance in the policy possible to do. Erm it's interesting,Mr Saunders er when he said it it was the best the Secretary of State could do last time round, erm, I wonder why er if he couldn't do it then, it would be really possible er in any way to do it now. Erm we have available erm a a distribution obviously which is based on on sites, er and one could look at that er as a as a way forward erm Do you contest what Mr Curtis is saying about the capacity of York City to accommodate additional employment land? No Chairman I don't think we do. Erm we're quite happy with with what Mr Curtis says about that, er we acknowledge that er while the need will be er probably much greater than the it's a physical fact of life in York that there isn't a great deal of er available land. And it would have to be found er if we were to move to to the er position that Mr Curtis has said about the total need, it would have to be found somewhere else. Thank you. That leaves us then with or would leave us with a substantial provision in Greater York. The Greater York figure doesn't I think change as a consequence of what Mr Curtis has said. But we're looking for something well in excess of a hundred hectares outside the city boundaries and essentially in the greenbelt. Is my conclusion correct? not correct. Erm we are looking and we have found in a sense erm land which er is available erm to meet the provisions, the a hundred and forty five hectares that the Greater York study suggested. Erm those sites are not actually er affected by greenbelt designations. They are inset in the greenbelt. They are within the yes, within the inner boundary of the greenbelt. Between the York City boundary and the inner boundary of the greenbelt ? The implication of what you're saying is that these hundred hectares plus can be found between the York City boundary and the inner boundary of the greenbelt? Substantially that that's correct. Erm there's also of course the issue of the within the resettlement wherever that would be, that would be er if it's accepted it would be outside Greater York, so there would be an effect in a sense on the erm the Greater York figure in the policy of a hundred and forty five hectares would be minus whatever was allocated to the resettlement. Is it a sensible planning strategy to take all this land between the city boundary and the inner boundary of the greenbelt, in what is the current structure plan period, I wonder? Where would you go after two thousand and six? Well I think we will be er in a sense looking erm you know at the options that are available and all the options that are available after two thousand six, er we haven't looked at those in gr in any great detail,what the options were at that time. But those options will will be rather constrained will they not, erm Have you a greenbelt which is intended to be permanent, a capac a city which has limited capacity for additional land as opposed to recycling the existing land. Well er Will your proposed take-up of this the the white land between the city boundary and the inner boundary of the greenbelt in fact take the whole lot, or is there some reserve? Erm,Chairman there isn't er reserve available, what we will be faced with is looking at erm for post two thousand and six, all options bar essential development around around the urban area. true. If the greenbelt is to mean anything. Well there would be options other than the ability to to make further provision around the the periphery of the city, between the urban area and the greenbelt. Essentially, aren't you saying that post two thousand and six, the options will be two. Either to find additional land by recycling it in York, or beyond the greenbelt? That's correct Chairman I think erm, we will be looking obviously to see what the prospects were within er the urban area and er sites do and surprisingly do continue to to to arrive and come up and we some other uses, erm they would make some contribution obviously erm, the other options would as you say be to to look beyond beyond the greenbelt at the opportunities that are available there. Can we just clarify one point. Erm the provision in policy I five does not include recycling land in in existing industrial or commercial or business use. It is effectively in planning terms a change of use from whatever to industry or business that I find is providing for. Yes Chairman the the main provisions of I five are to to make new land provisions. I think er the circumstances of Greater York are so complex and difficult administration that erm the the additional erm possibilities that in a sense would be making a contribution. Now now the point But what I I was trying to clarify they don't make a contribution to the I five provision. They make a contribution to employment by virtue of an increase in employment density or or not, depending on whether that increase actually takes place but they do not contribute to the I five provision by virtue of not being a change of use. Yes I understand that point. So effectively I five is a new land for employment uses? Yes. Can I just confirm with Mr Curtis that when he was talking about the thirty three hectares, he was talking about thirty three hectares in terms of in terms of a change of use from whatever, be it agriculture, David Curtis, York housing to industry. David Curtis, York City Council. I would answer that we are talking about a change of use but I have to add the reminder that the largest area inside the city is currently British Rail land. It's not in industrial use if one takes the definition that it's railway land. Yes, yes. I appreciate that. Well it's certainly not in industrial use at the moment is it? Yes. Can I just clarify one other point with the County Council and for the benefit of those who've not been here for the last however many days. We were talking about the new settlement. To clarify that we established yesterday that the new settlement will not necessarily be within the Greater York area, as it is defined on the plan on the board. The Greater York area coincides with that black circle roughly er on that on that map, and as you will see the Greater York area also coincides virtually with the whole of the greenbelt. Apart from the City of York and any other inset within it. Perhaps I should also say that the panel has not made up it's mind yet about whether there should or should not be a new settlement of course. We also talked about the new settlement being self-contained and integrated, but came I think to a consensus around the table that the level of employment provision in the new settlement should be related to the level of employment supply in the new settlement as opposed to a level of employment which would satisfy employment needs in inverted commas for the Greater York area. In other words, it's not an employment location, it is primarily a residential new settlement development which has some employment in it to satisfy employment needs of those who live there. Professor Lock is now looking very confused. My question was simply at the moment Professor Lock er am I clear, are you clear about that? You're very clear in what you're saying Good point that yeah. but erm, sorry the reason I'm raising my eyebrows is that the people who would come to live in the new settlement if it was to happen, are people who would otherwise have to live somewhere else in in the county Yes indeed. and so it seems to me that the erm really from the county's point of view, er to their advantage as it were, the employment land requirement stays the same. What you're just talking about is different patterns of its distribution that may occur. Mm right. Has is that is that fair too? Thank you. Yes it is. On that basis, Mr Williamson, and on the basis that you propose and acknowledge others do not accept that this new settlement should at least in this plan period be for about fourteen hundred dwellings, what level of employment land provision can be taken out of the Greater York figure and assumed to be in the new settlement? can I ask Mr Potter . Er David Potter, North Yorkshire County Council. Can you just s use the microphone and speak up Mr Potter please. People at the back can't hear. David Potter, North Yorkshire County Council. Er the distribution within Greater York is based essentially on the Greater York study, which identified the number of sites in and around Greater York and allocated those to the appropriate districts. There is a residue of unidentified land of some thirteen hectares, based on our revised assessment based on nineteen ninety one. Erm that is considered to be er an element which make a contribution towards the new settlement. Was that one three or three zero? One three . One three. Thank you. Mr Curtis. Sorry Mr Curtis before you come in can I just come back to you, er I just want to get this clear. Erm in realistic terms you can accommodate thirty three hectares of industrial land in the City of York. Now does your er assessed requirement, or your assessment of needs, still remain at sixty three hectares, and if it does if it does, is that all taken care off within the one hundred and forty five hectares for the Greater York figure? Or are we looking at possibly a larger figure now for Greater York? David Curtis, York City Council. No sir I I do accept first of all that the capacity of the city should remain at thirty three. Right. I accept that the fall within the hundred and forty five hectares. Yeah. Okay, thank you. Sir. What I would like to just er point out to the panel in terms of the earlier discussion the Senior Inspector was having about the sites around Greater York is that virtually without exception, well the two exceptions being the two hospital sites, I think all the other sites are actually our planning commitments so erm your comment about erm the longevity of the the greenbelt as it were, that virtually all those sites are actually committed in in one form or another, the only two sites which are not er committed really are the Naburn and Clifton hospital sites which are both inset within the greenbelt, well one is inset and one is subject to the normal P P G two er requirements for redevelopment of hospitals. These sites are inside the city boundary or not? No they are, they lie they lie within the urban settlement of York but outside our boundary. Thank you. Thank you. Miss Firth. Fiona Firth, Montague Evans. It's our view Chairman that the figure of a hundred and forty five hectares for the Greater York area is too high, erm the basis for that is the government guidance P P G twelve, paragraph five point one three, which says that the structure plan should provide a strategic framework for local plans development control and it should also indicate broad areas of restraint on development. Within Greater York the general philosophy embodied in both the Greater York study and the structure plan has been one of restraint. Erm the County Council's calculations identify the industrial B one land requirements to be on an economic activity base requirement, a hundred and two hectares and on a land-take basis a hundred and thirteen hectares, yet they're allocating a hundred and forty five hectares in the structure plan. Given the policy of restraint we believe that they should provide enough land to meet requirements, they shouldn't base their figure on past overtake. So therefore our contention that the figure should be reduced to a hundred and two hectares. If if they don't reduce that figure we feel that the oversupply will lead to green field sites being used where they shouldn't be. It also erm quite wrongly fuels justification for a new settlement proposal, because as they're saying there's a shortfall in allocations. Bearing in mind the advice in P P G four in particular, about providing a range and a choice of employment opportunities, the fact that the last decade this part of the country's probably seen two recessions and the need for flexibility, Mhm. do you think your recommended a hundred and two hectares would cater for all those things? Well yes I do. There is a range of sites, there's a list of the different sites in the Greater York study, erm I've looked at most of those sites and they there there is a big range of sites both in size and location. Erm that period has also had a period of growth within it, and I feel that's a reasonable basis to go forward on. Do you care to comment, Mr Williamson? Thank you Chairman. Er Ken Williamson, County Council. Erm owing to the extent Chairman and I think erm we we have established er we were happy that the the level of development er rightly or wrongly as a as a commitment is already in excess of the hundred and two hectares being spoken about. I'd also just comment briefly on erm th the comments being made about restraint. Er it's never been the County Council's er objective or intention to restrain what are the genuine er employment needs of its local residents, erm and we feel that this level of allocation is suited to to the needs of the residents. After two thousand and six? Mr Girt? Dave Girt, Leeds City. I wonder if I could bring Mr Williamson back to the basic methodology of calculation of the overall requirement share. It seems to me two of the elements are lend themselves to some sort of arithmetical assessment an and the County's gone through at. Mr Williamson's pointed to other factors which have been taken into account, the local requirements as a as a advised to him by the district councils, but he hasn't mentioned the Secretary of State's advice in R P G two that North Yorkshire should take account of the strategic guidance for West Yorkshire in that calculation. I wonder if he could describe to us what influence that has been brought to bear on the the overall calculation? I think it might be helpful Mr Girt if you could be a little more explicit about what in particular Yes. you're getting at. Well if I refer you, Dave Girt, Leeds City, if I refer you madam to the first paragraph of R P G 2 which is strategic planning guidance for West Yorkshire. You have the benefit of us both I think up here, can you t Well,per could I read the sentence which Thank you. I'm to quote then. It says the guidance has some implications for adjoining areas and neighbouring county and metropolitan district councils are asked to have to regard to it when reviewing and altering their statutory development plans . What do you interpret those implications as being? Well I, I'm having some difficulty in keeping my remarks addressed to question A and not drifting into question B because obviously Leeds City Council and perhaps speaking for the rest of West Yorkshire's concerned about regeneration effects. Is that as far as you can take us on your interpretation of what those implications are? I don't want to l , Dave Girt, Leeds City, I don't want to make a meal of it, I mean the the theme of R P G two is about revitalizing Yeah. Yeah. West Yorkshire,i it's the central core of that strategy. Right but isn't S isn't there a risk that if we don't keep a reasonable balance between employment and employment demand and employment supply in North Yorkshire, we shall finish up for different reasons with a need to regenerate the economy of Yorkshire, North Yorkshire? Dave Girt, Leeds City. Yes I think Leeds would be very happy to accept arguments erm based in part on the arithmetic, in part on the needs of the area. All I'm saying is, what account has been taken of that other ingredient, which is the strategic guidance for West Yorkshire? Mr Williamson didn't mention it in his description of the way he'd arrived, the County Council had arrived at their five hundred and odd hectares and er so far as West Yorkshire's aware, it's been ignored or so f as far as we're aware so far, it's been ignored. Now we're not arguing that the calculation should go beyond past land take-up and er counting the heads of those who would be employed, we w we would follow a similar process and we recognize that there are needs beyond that. But you've argued previously in this hall that North Yorkshire should provide for residential development at a level which would cater for a continuation of the past levels of migration. Mm. In the interests not least of Great of the Leeds Metropolitan Area? I'm still having a bit of difficulty reconciling those what you're saying with those sorts of lines put to us previously. Dave Girt, Leeds City. Let me just clarify the line I've been arguing previously, and with Bradford. We both argued that the levels of er housing development in Craven, Harrogate and to a lesser extent perhaps Amblet Hambleton should not be constrained, so as to reduce erm the the steady trickle if I can describe it as that of migration from the West Yorkshire conurbation to those areas, in perhaps er l looking at the different proposal for the new settlement which might be located in the Leeds York corridor. We've argued that that would stimulate migration as opposed simply to accommodate past trends, so we've argued that, but the the problem for West Yorkshire well for Leeds in particular is that the brown field sites we have, the regeneration that we need is not of sites which would readily accommodate housing, they're not sites which lend themselves as nice places to live. They're almost always surrounded by existing long term industry, they're not the sorts of places we want Leeds residents to have to live in the future. And it's it's on the economic front that regeneration has the highest priority in Leeds and not on the housing front, as I as I've previously described. For housing purposes we've taken large chunks out of our greenbelt, signalling that in terms of regeneration, we don't have regeneration housing sites. If you were County Planning Officer for North Yorkshire as well as for Leeds, how would you want the North Yorkshire structure plan changed? Well I'd like, Dave Girt, Leeds City, I'd like s some recognition of West Yorkshire's problems to be evident in er the deliberations, which er at the moment it's it's absent, it may it may have been taken into account but it's absent in the exposition, and I I'd also like some erm indication that competing development would not be massed on the boundaries of Leeds,that the scales of er the the distribution of the employment land seems to be to be biased towards those districts which which border Leeds. Sorry to press this but would you regard the provision of thirty three or forty six hectares in York and a hundred and five hectares in Greater York as being prejudicial to your interests in Leeds? I'd, Dave Girt, Leeds City, I'd be er pleased to hear from Mr Williamson that the hundred and forty five hectares for Greater York is actually to be contained within the York greenbelt, I I think Leeds has misunderstood that point, perhaps misled by the way each one was worded and we've in previous days clarified that point so Right. My understanding is that with the exception of the thirteen hectares which Yes. Mm. er Mr Williamson has indicated would be the the right sort of order of magnitude of allocation to the new settlement, the remainder of the hundred and forty five hectares would be within that ring on that plan. Are you happy? Yes I a I think , Dave Girt, Leeds City. I think erm previously we misunderstood that point, we thought the hundred and forty five hectares was footloose in the same area of search for the settlement and No. I'm I'm pleased that that's been clarified and er we understand that better now. Well that's not our understanding anyway, you know that it's footloose. I mean Right, right. Yes we're clear. Right. I I'm still a little bit puzzled about the thirteen hectares, is that footloose depending on where the settlement is placed if it's placed within Greater York? The settlement er in all probability as we established yesterday morning, could not go within those few fields which are in the Greater York area and not in the greenbelt . Mm. Mm. There are two small patches to the north of the city and looking at the plan again this morning there's one small patch Mm, mm. to the south. We have certainly not confined the area of search for the new settlement to that to those areas. As you know, if you heard the discussion yesterday which I believe you did, in accord with the County Council's criterion that it the new settlement should be within ten miles, we've widened the area of search to that ten mile radius. Dave Girt, Leeds City. Th thank you for that madam, I I understand that better now. Still I think there are concerns for Leeds about the scale of employment land proposed in Selby for example, which seems to us significantly more than could be supported by the arithmetic calculation plus some kind of a sensible allowance, it seems to f to be excessively generous. Yeah. Er obviously Mr Girt, I think yes I think we've we've concentrated on York and Greater York for the moment Mm. Erm We shall move the scene elsewhere. You'll get your chance again no doubt. Mr Cunnane, Is it about York? Is it about York, or Tadcaster? N neither. Selby. And it's a lot, I have a lot to say so it might be better to wait. Until after the break, I don't know. It's up to you. You want to shift the scene now to Selby District? Erm Is well is there anything the other districts want to say Yeah. about Greater York? Mr Smith. Ian Smith, Ryedale District. It's erm coming back to a point which Mr Curtis made about the amount of land identified in the Greater York study area, which is allocated but doesn't have a planning permission. Erm within Ryedale we've got thirty odd hectares of land which we've allocated for development in the period up to two thousand and six In the Greater York area? In the Greater York area which doesn't have a current planning permission, and that's not including a redundant hospital site of another ten hectares. So you re you regard that as providing some flexibility? Well in er in terms of Ryedale yes. And as I say there i there is land there which is is er aimed to provide a range of sites up until the end of the structure plan period, within that part of the Greater York area. Thank you. Michael Jewitt, Hambleton District Council. Erm as we're on Greater York I feel I ought to say something having a s small part of the Greater York area within Hambleton. Erm we don't expect to be making any meaningful contribution towards erm employment provision around Greater York, I'd refer you to er statements we made erm on erm the p on policy H one. Erm only three settlements in the area, very small, and it's unlikely that they're gonna meet meet an make any meaningful contribution to employment needs in Greater York. Thank you. Mr Mr Allenby, I I know you've made a submission but can we just clarify what provision is being made in Harrogate District which can be seen quite rightly as forming pa a contribution towards the Greater York? Thank you Chairman, yes. The the total provision for Harrogate District is ninety hectares of which thirty hectares is allocated to Greater York and we support that allocation because it properly reflects the provision of a site which is already committed for industrial development. So it's a single site of thirty hectares which is committed by way of planning permission. Mr Heselton. Er Terry Heselton, Selby District. Er just for the record Chairman to confirm that Selby District has no argument with the County Council on the Greater York . How much can you provide in the Greater York area? There's I think it's approximately twenty six hectares identified, erm most of which is committed in one way or another. And that figure also coincides with the the estimated requirement figure that we've come up with independently for the Greater York area, within Selby District anyway. And that if my arithmetic is correct which it often isn't, takes us to hundred and nineteen hundred and nineteen hectares in Greater York. That will I'll just repeat that. Thirty hectares for Ryedale, thirty for Harrogate, twenty six Selby and thirty three York City. Mr Potter. David Potter, David Potter North Yorkshire County Council. Erm we have been monitoring land availability since about nineteen eighty nine, nineteen ninety and our records for Ryedale show that there are approximately fifty hectares available. Some small sites within existing industrial areas are still available. Some small sites within existing industrial areas at Clifton and at er Pigeoncote particularly are available and undeveloped. Well if they're within existing industrial areas, then they're not included in the I five provision are they? They they are vacant sites, serviced and ready for development. They must make a contribution. Never been developed. They've never been developed. They're vacant land. They're the the residue of partially developed sites . Right. I understand, thank you. Mr Smith. Yeah I just er want to reaffirm that. The figure I gave was on erm sites which were allocated allocated but had no planning permission, that wasn't including er I think twenty three hectares we've calculated which have erm outstanding planning permissions. So adding this extra twenty hectares identified within Ryedale, that takes us to a hundred and thirty nine hectares for Greater York. Yeah, yeah. I think it might be useful to break there so we can have coffee. Reconvene at eleven thirty then we'll I think we, unless somebody else wants to raise points on Greater York, Mr Curtis? David Curtis, York City Council. Sir I would just, I think it would help the panel if you will refer to table seventeen of erm N Y six which actually sets out these sites. Right. Erm, will help help you obviously totalling all the proportions up. Thank you. So reconvene at eleven thirty please. And let's turn our attention to Selby. Mr Cunnane, you indicated you wish to speak on that? Yes. Yes please Chairman erm J Cunnane, J C Cunnane Associates. Erm I have a number of points to make but what I intend to do is to er very briefly outline them and then see where we go from there if that's acceptable. Er I would like to say at the outset that erm we we support the deposit version of the er the deposit version allocations of the alteration. We think they are about right, they would provide for an appropriate level of development. Erm I I should also say that for the for the record that erm we accept the Greater York figures and regard them as also acceptable. Er turning now to er land allocation with particular reference to Selby. Erm it is our position that we would support and regard as as the best approach one based on past land take-up. Erm and there is an important planning principle which er I would like to draw attention to in in this in in in the approach that we adopt and where we differ from Selby. The Selby approach seems to me to be er look at the land that is allocated which amounts to approximately a hundred hectares in the district and discount a great deal of it because it's constrained in some way or another, and I'll come back to those constraints later. But I simply want to make the the point of planning principle that you don't as a matter of approach walk away from constrained sites and say, ah well we don't like that because there's some constraint, we'll go and we'll reallocate an another piece of land somewhere else, and er that'll come forward more easily. If you adopt that approach it is inevitable that there's going to result dereliction and sterilization of land. And that approach er to in er in that sense is is totally unacceptable. However, it is the approach that Selby appeared to adopt. Turning now to the question of allocating land on the basis of need. It is appears to be accepted in principle by Selby in paragraph two point eight of their submission, that they do actually accept this approach. However, they they say that it i b it is unacceptable because it er pays insufficient regard to loss of jobs and the future role of manufacturing and service industry. As I understand the way need has been calculated, and the County will correct me if I'm wrong on this, er the method does actually take account of unemployment, and it sets an eventual employment level of three percent as a goal. And erm for that reason, er I wouldn't accept that the that that approach is is er inappropriate on that basis. The second point I would make on the criticism that Selby make of the need erm assessment is they say that it doesn't erm take adequate cognizance of manufacturing and service employment. As I understand the allocations, they don't seek to differentiate between different types of employment within the business use class, erm and for that reason equally I would regard that submission that it's an unacceptable approach as as invalid. Er Mr Potter this morning very fairly said to this erm t to the panel that if you do his need assessment which i if you got to the the exercise and stretch every parameter to its very limits, be as generous as you can on every possible criterion, you can get to an allocation for Selby of a hundred and twenty two hectares. Selby are looking for an allocation of twice that, and if you a if you accept that the County are correct and I can see no reason to to erm to vary from that, in fact our submissions er set out very clearly why we think every parameter is stretched to its limits,i if you st i if you accept that then at the very least I think its incumbent upon Selby to put forward a cogent argument for doubling that figure. The reason for that is that it is we are operating in a in an environment of planning policy restraint. We are not a West Yorkshire or a South Yorkshire er polic in a in a West Yorkshire or a South Yorkshire policy regime. And for that reason, need, local need, should be catered for, unemployment sh obviously should be catered for but a growth strategy which seeks to double the allocation without any justification is inevitably going to lead to one of two things, it is going to draw in in economic activity from outside, and it is likely that that will be from areas of regeneration, or it will lead to commuting. Either of those two approaches are unacceptable in principle in policy terms. However, turning turning to Selby's demand led approach which I would call it, and I think that is erm how they themselves in fact describe it, they have set a level of two hundred and two hundred to two hundred a fifty hectares based on demand, and as I understand it there is no assessment of job need or job demand to back that requirement. There is no cognizance taken of the advice in P P G twelve, paragraph five point four four, which says that it is right to have a flexible approach er with a range of sites available to business to be provided in plans, and authorities will want to ensure that in allocating sites there is a reasonable expectation of development proceeding . Well I would have thought that if there was to be some assessment of a reasonable expectation of development proceeding, then there ought to be some assessment of demand, and I haven't seen that yet. It is suggested also in Selby's submissions that demand has been frustrated in their paragraphs three point two one to three point two five, but again no evidence has been submitted of that, that I have seen. Selby enjoy partially part part of their area enjoys assisted area status, part of it enjoys objective two status, it is an area where land is cheap, it is an area where there is a plentiful supply of labour, and yet the past allocation in the structure plan has not been taken up. The submission that Selby make on the basis of constraints, of which I've referred to earlier, Are you to my mind they're no different to the constraints that one would experience in any other planning area. Erm, I'm not sure whether it would be appropriate for me to go through the the table now and look at the constraints, or whether it might be better to leave that until after I've finished my overall remarks. Yes okay. Er my next point is that it has t this panel has to consider the implications of the Selby go for growth approach which I would call it, and I don't think Selby differ from that, I think Selby are embarked on a a a a policy of growth, that the implications of that policy have to be con taken into consideration in relation to housing in particular, erm and it is apparent that if the allocation is doubled then there is unquestionably going to be a housing implication arising from that, and whether that would fit in with policies H one and H two. Hous yes I think that deals with erm my main points other than to say,t to repeat er very very briefly because Mr Curtis made the point already, that there is an implication er for this in in this growth strategy for er effect on regeneration in West Yorkshire in particular. Er now I do have as I say some detailed points on constraints and things but perhaps I'll leave those for the moment. Mr Cunnane I think it may be helpful, bearing in mind that you do not support the proposed level for housing provision in Selby to try to as isolate that element from our discussion. To what extent if if you accept the County Council's proposed housing provision for Selby, and I appreciate that's hypothetical but I er I think it would help me to get this element isolated from our discussion, otherwise we may go round in ever decreasing circles. What level of employment land provision would you support in Selby? I would assume that the County Council's assessment of need at a hundred and twenty two hectares does take cognizance of the s the anticipated growth in housing. And I'll obviously be corrected on that if I'm er I'm getting an an affirmative nod from Mr Potter. So erm on on the basis on the assumption on the assumption that you've put to me, then I would be prepared to accept that a hundred and twenty two hectares would be a reasonable level. Thank you. Thank you that's helpful. Mr Heselton. Well I wondered er Terry Heselton, Selby District. I wondered if it would er be appropriate for me to respond at this juncture? Yes. As er set out in in my written submission, Selby District clearly doesn't support either of the er alternative methods of of calculating em employment land. I'll I'll deal with them both first. In respect of past land-take. I feel this is completely unrealistic, because basically er demand has been thwarted by existing land shortages. In a nutshell the approved structure plan seriously underestimated the employment needs of the district, and it allocated only forty six hectare for a fifteen year period. What this means in essence when when you look at the geography of of the district is that it imposes severe restrictions on where you can distribute reasonable sized employment allocations around the district. And the other thing you have to bear in mind is that at the time the original structure plan was drawn up, they weren't talking about the er the structural employment problems that we are at the moment. In fact I think it's true to say that when the forty six hectare figure wa was agreed, it was known that the coal field was coming and er I think time has shown hasn't brought anything like the number of jobs or economic Hello. Well young scallywag, what can I do for you today? Well, I was at the hospital a month ago and my blood pressure's up a wee bit. So I said that I'd start . Oh . Oh. Right, before I got somebody to check. But er what I was wondering , I've got to water. You know, I'm not my water . He said that it was all quite normal really and Aye ,. Just I've run to the toilet. But I don't know whether it's cold with it during the winter or not I know but Let's check. started doing a bit of training maybe, and I've started cutting down eating. Okay yeah. And I think I'm overdoing, I tell you what I think . I was lying on my back, I was working my legs up and down a lot, Well and I don't know whether I've stretched a wee bit in here.. Putting the pressure on. Well this is it. And I know I, one, it, because I felt it one day. Right. See what this tells us. See if you've been a bad boy. And down you come . Ah, doing alright. fright the white coats must have frightened the life out of you some. Aye , you'd past couple of see me in , I said it doesn't seem . I wee bit here and I don't know what it is. They're always It was, it was a hundred and sixty over ninety or something, er I, what was it now? What's it? Hundred and s hundred and sixty over seventy five. But I know that's what it was you know because the wee lassie done it with this special electronic thing That's right. and er . Cos I'd lost about half a stone in weight, and I was cut down on chocolate biscuits, and I, what I'd been doing I was was at my tea,at five o'clock, I was eating another at ten o'clock, I reckon I was overdoing it a bit you know with the I was trying to cut down a lot Yeah. Aye. I would and I'd lost half a stone in weight. I would think your, your best bet Robert is just try and keep your weight steady. And don't go hard at the training. I mean your weight, and your pressure there is is er Have you got the report back from the hospital a couple Aye. Aye of weeks ago aye?? Twenty fifth yeah twenty fifth of March. Aye, that's right. almost a year. Hundred and sixty. Hundred and sixt It's alright today? Aye. Great today. Is it? No problem. That was all that was worrying me. You know I'm saying, maybe there's a wee bit of strain in here. And now see Aye that's probably . I'm on my feet? I'm alright when I'm in that position, right? Aye. I do but see if I'm sitting down That's right. see them guys in the corner, see me sitting in this position? Sitting Now I don't know whether it's a wee bit of Extra weight. Is that what it is? You get caught between a weight pushing down, and the seat, the pressure on the seat. Cos I'm alright when I'm on my feet, I'm hardly bothered having to go for Yeah. Aye. It's just this is I remember on my back, cos I was lifting up you know lifting my legs up. Aye. And one of these I felt . I don't know er . Yeah, I would think That was all what was . I would think so Robert. But all your blood tests But he's that Doctor , he says,er just show him that wee tracer, and he'll know, but Aye. Aye. he says all the blood and everything all was all Every everything's cleared away. everything's cleared away. one every four weeks, just for the S see you every four weeks for the next couple of months,When are you due back to see them? No, it's er by the way, instead of every year now it's, I've to make it two years. Every two years? So I've not to go back Oh well. till two years now. E every month for about round Well, he's just to keep a record of it right. I'll just get an appointment just for my blood check. that checked anyway. Is it near enough normal that is? Yes. One sixty over seventy five. Is it? They don't come better than that. Oh that's a re that's my, maybe that'll make my put my mind at rest a wee bit. Aye. No, I mean that er Doing my, my job I notice it you know I'm in this a little bit of pressure on the . Oh aye. Aye. back on the tills again. It's safer. I'm not joking. Safer away from it . You're safer away from it. see when I'll was it last Friday?last Friday. Cos he's enjoying himself. Eh? You get a bit of , Yes. you know. One boy shouted the doctor, you know?. And they still support the Airdrie . Oh dear, aye, he took a terrible So is this running to the toilet with my water just Aye, that'll gradually disappear. I always feel it, it's a lot worse in the winter. Aye. I mean I don't know, Och yes. That's right. I mean . and that's it the head, and I could feel the chill . You'll need to get one of these wee hats. I know.. Bill Bill 's got a spare one. Right, thanks a lot. Right, pal, right. Okay sir, cheerio now. Next patient Dr . Come in, come in. Morning Doctor. Good morning. Now what can I do for this lady? My daughter's Doctor. I didn't really want had a mastectomy. another lump there. Another lump? It might only be breast tissue, I don't know that. Mhm. Let's have a wee look. And she called him in on Sunday night, I mean I wouldn't have. No. Right. It's hard. But i it's like where the stitches are you know. Where where the stitches were, right. Well, partly where they are. Right, er I just happened to feel it because the wounds haven't been healing Doctor, Has it not? using that erm what's the name of the cream? That steroid cream? Eumobate Aha. Right. Well, I've been to see Mr , and then I was off again to see him, and he said I was right. But he didn't say whether I, I just continued with the cream, but it was the other night I just felt wee . Could be a bit of breast tissue, I don't know. But it is quite a hard lump. Aye, he was quite happy. He couldn't feel anything No he to worry about? Mhm. That's what he said. Yes. Here I felt a lump. Yes, In a different aye, it's a different bit. It's higher. It's up he didn't actually examine that part where I think there's a lump. See after a breast operation does it take a long long time with stitches? Oh yes. Oh aye. Aye cos I tried the prosthesis and I tried the, but it just catches, and then er . And it's Keeps, keeps rubbing against this, this is so sore. Aye. That's the worst bit. That's the worst bit. But In here. but that's no where the lump is. Let's have a wee look at this lump and see what Stupid, you're into a state, isn't it? No, not. Cos in that bit. See what's going on here. Oh right you know what I . That it? Oh I think that's your rib. My rib? I think that's your rib. No Aha, that's right. Oh yeah. That my rib? That feels like a rib. Oh Jesus. Is it? Aye. That's your other one, that's the one on top, there's the one underneath. And then there's, the other one's just underneath that, so there. Oh it's a rib then. See that, that's your rib. Aha. It's hard? Aye, oh it's hard. Very very hard. Because so was the last lump, hard and then it was like you know? That's right. That's hard, yeah. Right. That's, that's, that's er the edge of your rib. I don't think, I don't feel anything else there, Katrina. Now when are you going back to see Mr ? I go back Right. I'll drop him a wee note, and tell him that you, that you, you know, you can feel this er I'll tell him I've had a look at it, and think it's the rib that's showing through. I'll see what he says. I've had a lot of bother with a wee bit of red blisters Aye up the top. That's, that's, that's the stitches. you know it's a bit of a and it's really sore like. And then as the day goes on, I've got to go and tear this off, cos it gets, these bits get red, Red red raw. oh really sore Doctor , you cannae Right. Then it comes in like a tingling feeling. Like a, a ne a nettle stinging you you Right. know. And it's just Sounds the clothes that are doing that. Aye, it sounds like the stitches right enough. And does that take a long time? I mean Yes. I thought, I didn't think that it takes as long as that. I mean he did say they were stitches that come out er what That there, you get, there are some stitches that c They stay in but he says that That's right. in the body. But they don't come out with your , you know your bath. That's right. They're they're too They just integrate in the body . They're too deep underneath the skin. Aye, he said that. The way the way Cos I heard it takes as long. That's why they take so long. there's now Just keep on with that cream? U use this stuff instead of that er Eumobate It's Aha. slightly stronger. Aha. And that might do that, I'll drop Mr a wee note, tell him that you've been in, Aha. so that when he sees you the next time, he'll double check that. Aye. Aha. But I don't think there's anything Er to worry about Katrina. I hope not. No. No. I just, I just felt that it was the cream the other night, and then I just felt oh, you Mhm. know b what I've been getting on Friday and Saturday night was an awfully big Yes. in my shoulder. Up, up over the top here. On the shoulder, more Yes, that's right. I've always been getting a shooting pain there that kind of happened and I just That's right. thought it was the stitches. That's, aye, it's, it's everything's beginning to get tight. Tight now, aye. This is, this is you starting to feel the sore bits. But er I'll, I'll drop him a wee note anyway. Aye. Okay. Right Katrina. else I feel Doctor I've, Aye. got angina, and I've got the like the heart failure. Mhm. And I didn't want any breast off, naturally. No no. I mean but see the tremendous strain that it's putting on me? Ah. You know, I feel that is left, left angina,because I've got to rip the brassiere off at a certain time of the day Aha. extra weight. The extra weight, you know? I didn't want any off, I think I'd have . Right Katrina . Cheerio. Right, okay, cheerio now. . Chairman and Chairman . Colleagues. That's original at any rate. Erm there are several strains in current use, produced by different manufacturers of B C G, used for the treatment of erm superficial, by which I mean T A, P T A, P T one and in situ disease in the bladder. Little is known of the relative efficacy and toxicity of different strains. Therefore in ninety eighty eight the M R C superficial bladder cancer sub-group of the Urological Cancer Working Party set up a study to compare what, at that time, were the commonest strains in use in this country. Er they were the Evans strain, previously Glaxo and the Pasteur strain, made in Paris. And the study was not er designed to include er in situ disease, so we're dealing entirely with P T A and P T one recurrent tumours. There were three objectives in this study, first of all, to measure the response of a marker tumour to the two strains of B C G. Secondly, to measure the incidence of recurrent disease erm while patients were under maintenance therapy, with B G C over a two year period. We decided at that time to follow Brosman's erm regimen which er had had the lowest recurrence rate then reported. And thirdly, to compare adverse events erm er noted with the two strains of B G C. This paper refers to the objectives one and three and the incidence of recurrent disease will be the subject of a later report. All the patients who were entered into this study were patients with multiple P T A, P T one, erm N X, M naught tumours, then I must stress that they were problem patients. These were patients who either had previously or were being considered for erm intravascular chemotherapy, or even for cystectomy, they were not the patients who may have had one or two recurrences noted at check cystoscopy. There were the usual exclusion criteria for any erm trial of malignant disease. Before entry into the study, each patient had a cystoscopy and at that time the number and position of tumours within the bladder were noted, the largest tumour was measured in two diameters and was resected into muscle, one tumour was selected as a, a reference tumour and left in situ and all the rest of the tumours were resected. The patient was then randomized to receive either a course of Evans or Pasteur B G C. The dose was selected to be comparable er, each strain was comparable to the other in terms of dose, B G C was instilled for one hour and then the patient er underwent er weekly installations for six weeks. Three months after entry into the study another cystoscopy was performed, again the number of tumours was counted and all tumours were, were exsected, if tumours indeed were seen. If the erm marker tumour was present it was measured in two diameters and was resected. If the marker tumour was not seen then the site of the marker tumour was resected. All histological material, both from the first cystoscopy and the second cystoscopy, was sent both to the local pathologist and then representative sections sent to the reference pathologist. Both groups of patients, those receiving Pasteur and receiving the er erm Evans B G C, were comparable in terms of sex and age, the category and the grade of the tumour, the number of tumours, the size of the largest tumour, the duration of disease and the size of the marker tumour left in the bladder. I will not bore you with going through a lot of slides showing those comparisons, but in a short paper erm you must take my word for it that the two groups were comparable. Ninety nine patients were entered into this study, two were ineligible, one because of previous malignancy and one because no marker tumour was left in the bladder. That left fifty one to receive Evans B G C and forty six, Pasteur. Three patients, all who happened to be in the Pasteur group were subsequently unavailable. One was lost to follow up before the three month cystoscopy, one died of cardiac failure before their three month cystoscopy and one important patient developed bilateral ureteric obstruction and underwent a cystectomy two months after entry into the study. The histology of the removed bladder showed widespread invasive bladder tumour, not only across the base of the bladder obstructing both ureters but also at other sites in the bladder as well. I put it to you that it is unlikely that such widespread invasive tumour arose from one small marker lesion and the surgeon concerned that this was a staging error initially. Now, what were the results at the three month cystoscopy? This slide shows erm the findings. They, you can see that the patients can be considered in four groups, those in the top line which in which the marker tumour was absent and no other tumours were seen in the bladder. The next line, the marker tumour was absent but other tumours were seen in the bladder. There were no examples in line three of patients in which the marker tumour was still present, but no other tumours were seen. But there were a substantial number of patients in which the marker tumour was present and other tumours were also present. Those results would suggest that the other tumours were in fact new tumours, rather than persistent tumours which had been missed at the first cystoscopy. Although it er the numbers are small it appears from that as if the response of the marker tumour to Pasteur B G C might be better than to Evans but I can assure that there is no statistical difference in those values. Admittedly, if we had entered five times as many patients there might have been a significant difference but it might have gone either way and we have not been able to show any improvement in response erm to either the Pasteur relative to the Evans or vice versa. Now, what of the adverse events? Adverse events were noted a at each installation of B G C and at the time of the first cystoscopy and were scored for severity and the highest score was then re recorded and appears on this erm histogram which relates to frequency as a symptom. Each of the next few slides has the same format. You will see that there is a very similar distribution of the severity of symptoms of the symptom of frequency in the two groups and that is the case for all the symptoms which were recorded. For dysuria,for haematuria, slightly more possibly in the i in the Pasteur group but nothing that reaches statistical significance. Fever and malaise joint pains and hepatic disfunction. At the three month cystoscopy, in addition to erm recording the actual tumours in the bladder, the inflammatory response was also recorded and ascribed a score. Er o er ascribed a description of mild, moderate or severe and the degree of inflammatory response was virtually identical in the two groups. In the slide in which I showed the overall results it appears that about half the patients, the erm marker tumour had been eradicated and in quite a lot of patients there were tumours present. And I must stress that these were all problem patients and if tumours were present they were recorded as so on that previous slide but they were often present in greatly reduced numbers. This shows that in well over eighty percent there were fewer tumours at the three month cystoscopy than there were before the B G C was instilled. So the conclusions from this M R C study are as follows. First of all, that the marker tumour is eradicated by a six week course of B G C in just over fifty percent of patients and that the number of tumours is reduced in at least eight five percent. That in this relatively small study, there was no significant difference in the efficacy or the toxicity of those two strains of B G C. And thirdly, that it erm demonstrates the usefulness of the marker tumour principle in testing the therapeutic efficacy of agents used in P T A, P T one disease. Thank you. Thank you. And the paper's now open to discussion. Would you like to come to microphone one please? Er if you do go to microphones three, which is the one at the back, it's rather difficult to see you with the spotlight in my face. If you could wave the programme we're more likely to see you. Microphone one, first. Er from Cairo. Feeling blue? What do you do? One hundred women have an idea or two. Talking about depression is not something we do much, which is odd really because everybody gets depressed and vast numbers of us need help from time to time. Though because perhaps we feel guilty or embarrassed about the whole area of mental health we're not tackling the problems when they come up nearly as well we might. So we're going to try and start to change all that now. Let me ask the one hundred women here, have you ever been depressed? Button one for yes, and button two for no. And perhaps the only surprising thing about that result is that, is that seven people have said no! Ninety three have said yes. Let me ask you whether you would regard yourself a depressive person? Would you say are depressive rather than simply get depressed? Button one for yes, and button two for no. And there, only sixteen say they're depressive er people, eighty four no but the great majority here have been depressed from time to time. About what? I mean th a great variety of things are depressing but can you identify what makes you depressed? Lack of money. Sorry? Lack of money. Lack of money. And that's something, that must be a very Aha. common one? Aha. And then that your, your household is well, the sort of er, someone's lost their job, you know, you start what are we're gonna do? You know, how are we gonna manage? Mm. Etcetera. Who else? Ya? After a baby. Baby blues. Baby blues. Did you have baby blues? Yes. After my last one. Just after one? After the last one. What's it like? Absolutely terrible! Horrendous! What did you I , well I just didn't realize it was anything like that, I had I've had four children and the last one there was thirteen years difference between them and it was really, really terrible! He was about six months old and I didn't know what was wrong with me. How long did it last? About three months before I finally, I was husband made me go to the doctor or go to the doctors for me and that's when I realized it was depression I didn't know anything about it then. Really? Had you not been warned? Had you not No. read anything? No. Yes? Sometimes you don't need anything to make Mhm. you depressed. Mhm. Sometimes you've got a depressive illness. You know, a manic depressive or a schizophrenic or whatever. Yeah. Beside you. Living with somebody depressive has made me depressed on frequent occasions and th th the feelings of helplessness that you have in dealing with the person's depression. Yeah? Erm, one of the things that depresses me, is probably the main thing that depresses me is not being valued for what I am or what I do and I think many women suffer from depression because their strengths and their creativity are not recognised and valued. Mm. Anna? Being a single parent. Is that depressing? Yeah cos there's, on your own all the time and you feel you've got no time for yourself and that can be fairly bad at times. Yeah. Er, it's not just single parents, I think er, married couples as well cos I think Yep. society expects everybody to cope well and they don't. So I think that can become quite depressive as well. Up there. I think from what everyone's saying being a woman in Scotland today is that in itself er, a cause for depression. I think trying to exist in society at the moment is extremely difficult. And there's wi wide er, spread unemployment and there's the stress of being as that lady said, a single parent, erm, for women who work and have families they have their old conflict between what they're doing, doing at home and what they're doing at their work and who should have a priority. So I think erm, just a combination of trying to get through the week can be a sort of depression for many women. How do you cope with it, the ninety three of you who get depressed from time to time, whether it's severely or or or or not so severely? I think it's a matter of giving yourself time of accepting that maybe you're feeling low or I fe , when I'm feeling low I say right, I can't cope with things I've got to give myself some time where nothing's gonna bother me, if I can manage it, an hour, half an hour, just doing something for myself that I really like and that helps me once I accept myself as being depressed then it helps alleviate the stress involved with it. Is that something you think would work for everyone. I think it's worth a try. Doing something you like, if you can give yourself half an hour, or an hour, you know just say this is for me, and for me only. Mm mm. I think with erm, I I was brought up in a household where it was com , completely legitimate to admit to being depressed and that you would just have to cope, I think cope perhaps my most Mm. least favourite word in the entire language! Women coping all over the Mm. place with Mm. all sorts of terrible stresses and the only sort of legitimate reason for collapsing is to allow somebody else to cope beautifully with your collapse. I think with er, it's very interesting that people are actually admitting that they feel depressed and they have strategies for dealing with it. I'm sure it's re relatively recent. It probably is. It'll be useful Mm. to hear more of the strategies. Yes? I think it's important to get a listening ear and know that there are other people around who will give you support. You have to search that out. I'm not su , absolutely convinced, in terms of saying Mm. having an hour away from it is enough, I think there are a number of women who need to look and get support from somewhere. Is that hard to do would you say? Erm I think well I think it is, at times. I think in terms of people knowing, in terms of women knowing where they actually can get that support from. And also actually getting them there, themselves there in the first place is very difficult. Where's the yes? I think it helps if you can identify whether the the erm depression is just caused by erm the circumstances round about you which can be alleviated by changing them or if it's caused by eating habits or erm or erm hormones or chemical imbalances in, I've suffered, I think, from all them as well! Say like erm th stresses we're all under will cause depression, but after my had my children I suffered from reactive hyperglycaemia, low blood sugar, and we , that was glucose intolerance and I think an awful lot of women erm, suffer th from this and it's not erm found out and knowing the glucose intolerance I can understand how a lot of children erm, suffer from er problems with eating habits because I think this is being discovered more and more Mm mm. and I think society should be erm, trying to get to the root cause of like, chemical imbalances and eating problems rather than just putting people on tranquillizers. Well I wonder how many people here, I mean ninety three people say they ha , they th they occasionally do get depressed, I wonder if you ever have taken er, mood controlling drugs such as tranquillizers? Have you? Button one for yes, button two for no. It's erm it's regarded as er as an increasing problem er amongst women. Thirty nine have. Now we're talking about how you cope, the thirty nine who have do they work? Don't they work? Would you recommend it or wouldn't you? And obviously everybody has a different experience of this. Yes? Er, I actually had two stillborn babies, one one year after each other and they put me on Valium and it didn't do me any good at all! And my little boy was he was only about three at the time and I used to be used to angry at him and my neighbour used to come in and take him. And I was married to a soldier so I didn't have any family round about me at the time so it was it was pretty hard. And coming off valium was a lot harder because you don't realize that when you're on it you can't get back off it again. Did you, did you get help coming off it? Erm Well you were obviously, well you prescribed it in the first place Well that was supposed to be help. it was, it was actually there was a programme on television and my husband took me to the doctor and he said he felt I'd been on it too long, I'd been on it about six months and when I come off it, I come off it pretty quick and I ended up erm I didn't know what was wrong with me and it ended up I've now got epilepsy, and they didn't know if it was caused through erm I took a stroke about three four month after that and then I got the epilepsy as well, so they don't know if that me coming off it Mm mm. straight away, I just stopped it. Down there. Erm, I was erm, put on just for in ninety seventy three and your question that you're asked was and from nineteen seventy three till three years ago erm I know took my causes, I trust, put my trust in the doctors and erm over all those years I didn't realize that it was actually the tablets that was causing me the mental illness. And saying that, in the last three years I since discovered, and it was quite difficult to, which I did find, that there was alternative erm therapists, which was lots of groups that were going on and once I got into it erm the , it opened up a new, you know I ne I've never saw the light at the tunnel that is shining brightly now! Has anybody had the opposite experience with er with the kind of the drugs we're talking about, whereby they have been helpful and th , and they, and they would recommend them? Yeah? Er, I think anti-depressants can be helpful for a certain length of time but not for over a prolonged period of time. Erm and I think there's a big difference between them and tranquillizers and people tend to get the two mixed up. I think tranquillizers can be useful as well for a very short time limited period. Erm, but I certainly found anti-depressants helpful. Mm. Yes? Yes. I just wanted to say that speaking as a psychiatrist Mhm. valium is not an accepted treatment for depression and that we have excellent anti-depressant drugs, particularly ones that have come just in recent years that are very effective for depression, and I think bringing a great deal of benefit to depressed people. Well Ray say,i i I mean it's important that we yo you find out whether you are depressive, whether you have er ag , oh, something clinically wrong with you, whether you're just feeling a bit down. But perhaps we don't really know enough and we don't know where to go for information, I mean I don't know er I, I I'm not an expert but there are experts here, how would you assess the services available to people who feel they do need help, or for people who perhaps don't know they need help? Yes? Yes I think the situation in Scotland is very poor! I'm, I'm an alternative medicine practitioner and I tend to get a lot of people who are depressed coming to see me, people who have been through the normal routes Mhm. gone to their GP's, and often have been given some sort of medicine for their depression but haven't had the counselling side of things dealt with and they've just been given re-prescriptions, not necessarily seen every time for a re-prescription. Behind you. I think there are a number of counselling services available, but I also think it's very difficult sometimes for women to get there Mhm. and it's it's something about the shame around depression that we don't actually come forward for counselling and there's certainly not enough free counselling services in Scotland. There. I'm also an alternative therapist and I do find that this is one of the major problems, that ninety percent of my patients who come to me suffer from stress and depression, and really what has happened in a lot of cases is that they have been put on valium and drugs, they find the side effects are horrific! And actually really in a last resort in many cases they come to you. Mm. Mm. I went through a period of depression erm I'd been attending the doctor I'd been told that I was suffering from various illnesses, but nothing helped. I was given anti- depressants, that didn't help and it wasn't until four years later when they actually admitted me to hospital and then an ulcer and the depression disappeared once it had been diagnosed. But all the time I'd been attending the doctor I'd been told, first of all it was gall stones Mm. then it was something else Mm. then it was something else and I honestly thought the doctor thought I was cracked! There's nothing the matter with me! And I was taken into hospital and it was an ulcer and the depression disappeared after that. Mm. There. I think speaking as another psychiatrist er the medical profession do have to look very carefully and perhaps how a lot of the damage has been done er with how women perceive whether they can ask for help or not because a lot of the women here have raised been giving tranquillizers and my colleague across there has pointed out that tranquillizers are not an appropriate way of treating depression. Mhm. And diagnosis is very, very important that, if you have a medical, clinical state of depression try and pull yourself out of it, by your, your own efforts and doing alternative things is not necessarily going to be effective. And diagnosis is very important, as a psychiatrist again, training our medical students, we are trying to do a lot of education along that line because perhaps some of the older GP's, along the way, have not recognised the importance of this. Well I, I went to a psychiatrist once looking for a self-help group cos I didn't want tablets or anything I just wanted somebody I could talk to. Mhm. But what I found when I went was I had to go through the psychiatrist to find this group cos it wasn't available. My doctor didn't know anything about it. So having gone there I got counselling which I found was very useful to me. More useful than all the medications and so forth like them. So once you found it Aha. it was helpful? Yes? Up there. Yes. Now, when I took post-natal depression I asked my health visitor, you know, where do you go? And she sent me to a mother and toddler group, I mean, she didn't tell me about any self-help groups, it's mother and toddler, she just said take you and the baby and go to mother and toddler and that'll be it. And that's all the help I got from my G P. Beside you. I found that erm, we run par , a self-help group as well for ladies with post-natal depression Mhm. and I found, for me personally and a lot of other mothers that it started in pregnancy. Now, I don't know if anybody's had the experience but they're only interested in your unborn child, they're not interested in how you feel at that time. I mean, you think you give birth and you're forgotten, I mean your health visitor visits your baby, and then you've got the baby blues, and we we are trying to do something to get them to help and warn people about when they are pregnant it can happen because it does start then, not after you've had the baby, it builds up and them wham, it hits you! Yes? I think mental illness isn't taken seriously enough. I think that er, there's a problem, first of all you've identified that women experience er, depression and I think that's not taken very seriously by policy makers and people in power,na namely men. I think women get depressed but men suffer from stress which is somehow more respectable it's more macho, it's associated with work and Aha. you know, there are all sorts of means of dealing with stress Mhm. which are not always open to women. But it's more pu , you know, it's almost de rigueur,mo amongst certain types of executive to be suffering from stress. And I suspect it's the same kind of actual physical complaint that women who complained of being depressed have. Yes? Women have a lot different stress than men. Men Mm. go out nine to five to work, they are stressed nine till five, women, especially women with children have it twenty Mhm. four hours a day, they don't have a nine to five job, they're on call twenty four hours a day and that's a lot more stressful. Mhm. I think that men tend to rely more on a crutch such as alcohol I don't if it relieves Mm mm. the problem more but it tends to be men that cope in that way and women aren't seen to cope as well, maybe they just don't use things like alcohol Mhm. as much as the men. Well I'm vo involved in Crossline which is a a Christian run telephone helpline, erm, we off , also offer free counselling and they find that er, there's more men will actually pick up the telephone, cos they're not seen erm, whereas more women will actually come in for face to face counselling. I think it's a stigma that a lot of men feel they can't show that they're depressed or they've got a problem so they'll pick up a ph , a phone. Yes? Well as the speaker before last mentioned, men are in fact diagnosed twice as often as women are suffering from alcoholism. I think men tend to act out their depression more than women. Yes? I'd just like to raise a point that erm most men are psychiat , er mo most of the psychiatrists are men and that a lot of the diagnosis I feel, come from a very sort of patriarchal view erm, you know a lot of have sort of brought up the alternative sort of er medicine and er self-help groups, and to me, having been through psychiatry which is a, a huge machine that is very difficult to get out that er to me, that's the only future and there's millions of pounds going into psychiatry and we're reviewing it now with community care plans which, I I don't think anybody is actually clear about but er, you know, the the millions that are put into psychiatry, I'd like to see more sort of counselling er, become available or, more money given to sort of er mental health associations. Mhm. Following, from what was said there we know that there's, that there's a limited pot for mental health because that's the way it's going to be, we've been told that so there's a real big job for women Mhm. to look at er, a P R job about changing the way those resources are used so that they're used in the way that's been talked away, er, talked about tonight which is way that clearly many wo , many women want to see them being used. And women have to got to get, get out there and ensure that the people who do plan the way that these services are are operated and managed an an all the things evaluated, that women have a real say in that. Which women? The women who are the professionals in the field or being No. The women who will use the services, women who have used the services in the past, and women who will use them in the future, and that's all of us. Now, say more about that practically, because I mean if you're depressed, you may feel too depressed to go to a a professional, you may have great difficulty getting there for whatever reason because you're ashamed as someone mentioned, you're embarrassed, you don't want to admit you can't cope, which is a syndrome once you get there how do you pluck up the courage to say well actually what your offering me isn't good enough, I've heard on on television there is something better and I want it? Gosh! There'll be other people here who I'm sure who have done it. But, it's up to organisations like the ones we work for to respond to that and to not be doing the planning on behalf of other people. Yes? I think we're still talking here about depression and how to go and Mm. find a cure erm perhaps we should try and think about why we get depressed in the first place, I know there's lot of people who co , here have had problems. I think it's important to find space for ourselves which sometimes we just don't do. You know, find things to do to occupy ourselves in other ways. You mean cope? Mm. Well, no not cope but to to enable us to cope we have find space for ourselves, do something, purely for ourselves rather than always be thinking about our children, thinking about the home thinking about the family, we're as important and I think that's what people must realize to begin with. Yes? I suffer more from a feeling of guilt, perhaps than men do. I think it's part of a vicious circle, that sometimes it's guilt which leads to depression and then women feel guilty about being depressed and that's why they take what is on offer to them. I think there's a great cult of perfection amongst women, that they're trying to be all Aha. things to all people all the time. Research has shown recently that erm a life event, such as you described can precipitate depression in someone who's self esteem is low and I think this is where we women are more vulnerable. Although we've advanced a great deal in the last fifty years, we still have a way to go and our self esteem is lower than men. I want to turn this right round because a couple of people have mentioned guilt and er I I suspect that one of the reasons that women are a bit worried about talking about depression or or campaigning for changes in policy, or more funding, or or whatever, is that for a long time women have been thought of as the weaker sex, more emotional, more nervous, by a, a a male establishment, I'm talking about past centuries, isn't there a case for saying there's actually we have a right to be depressed, I mean, obviously it's normal, ninety three of you get depressed from time to time, the majority of you don't think you clinically depressive if it is, if it's normal to be depressed shouldn't the services to cope with depression, if we need outside help, be there and there's no shame in it? I mean, you've got the right to go to the dentist, the right to go to the doctor! Yes? I think what would be helpful for all of us is to think of our er mental health rather than mental illness Mhm. and er, you know it's part of a spectrum, and if we're all as aware of er mental health as we are with physical health now, and if that was, was carried out in public education campaigns and in schools, I think you're right, we would have this right to mental illness as part of a overall mental health. Ray? Erm, it is part of the e education curriculum and design, the development of inter-personal, pschyo-motor and cognition skills apparently so if the experts e actually gave me galloping schizophrenia because on one hand I thought hallelujah and in the other hand will we make as mak , bigger mess of this as they did in multi=sensory teaching methods in a coordinative approach to learning? What are the experts view on this? How are they going to manage to implement this without making the situation any worse! You'll blind us with science if we go into that right now! Yes? Erm, I think one of the important bits is th , the issue of why is is part of it, why people get depressed? And I think it's, a great deal of it is to do with failed expectations. Whose? And people get depressed, like when they're dealing with bereavement, that's an event in a person's life and causes short term dis , short term, very intense distress, but that's different from the way we're constructed through the media and all sorts of ways to be super mothers, super wives, super kiddie and a super this that and the next thing which none of use can meet all these demands at one go! But because, the media hold out these expectations as the norm and people can't meet them all, they then feel failures Aha. and that is also why, going back to a point earlier on, why I think erm counselling and alternative medicine, and so on, is marginalized it would be such a rock to the social order to actually acknowledge that people are in distress because it's the social order that's causing that distress. It's the media again! But it's tru And the patriarchal society. But I just wanted to bring up some of the underlying reasons for depression, and one of the large things that society is having to address just now is child sexual abuse Mhm. which er er in my profession as well I come up against all the time and I I think that we're not really acknowledging that that is very often a cause, for men and women Mhm. er of future mental health problems. Beside you. Yes. I I wonder really, the only rational appro , response to the world at the moment isn't to be depressed, I mean, everyone looks around famines in Africa, and war and jus and depredation Mm Mhm. all around us Mhm. as well as more domestic problems within Scotland of unemployment and so on, I mean, really depression should be regarded as a normal response Mm. and what women are experiencing half the time is perfectly rational. Yes. I don't actually believe that that depression is normal, I believe that we can overcome depression, and I think there is some creative things that we can do out of a depression people can become stronger, they can tap into their resources inside with support and help, so I can believe it's a positive experience. Mhm. I think that it's important to recognize that to have a depressed mood is not to have a depressed illness Mhm. we all can get depressed if we're talking about a mood state, that's not an illness. Depression, as an illness is not normal any more than having an ulcer Mm. or a coronary is normal, and I think again, that stops people for asking for help because the they're not sure whether it's a depressed mood or an illness. If it's an illness it's a stigma. I think it's also part that you know, you're walking along the street and you bump into somebody and they'll say, well how you doing today? Say, oh I'm fine! You never say, I'm depressed, and they're never really listening for you to actually say how you really are. Our society goes round all the time expecting everybody to be fine, to be happy, to be cheerful, you know! You're not allowed just in your day to day life to say to somebody, unless you know them really well, it's the shits today! Well I'm afraid we're out of time there ! There is help if you need it, out there and I hope, you may have heard something helpful tonight and er if you feel inclined to change things, I think everybody here would encourage you. Goodnight. Good morning everyone, and welcome to Pearson's first half results. One way or another we've had a pretty busy six months. As you know we've decided to concentrate our management and financial resources on our media interests, which cover the information, education and entertainment markets and in which our spread of businesses including books, newspapers, family attractions and television are well placed for future growth. In June we acquired Thames Television, with its valuable programme rights, distribution business and production capability. And we have a crack at Star T V. The plans we announced on twenty seventh July to demerge Doulton and float Camco are already underway. Until such time as they leave the group, figures from these two businesses obviously continue to form part of our accounts. I'm pleased to say that in the course of the last six months we've seen a strong recovery in profits. So, let's now look at the results. Overall our nineteen ninety three first half pre-tax profits stand at forty six million for all our businesses including Doulton and Camco. That's nearly twelve million better than for nineteen ninety two and reflects its satisfying improvement in underlying performance. Sales were up by nineteen percent and there's also firm evidence in these results of margin improvements which reflect, for the first time, the full benefit of our cost cutting measures taken over the last three years. We've become better at making money in sluggish trading conditions and are making the most of the patchy recovery we've seen in some of our markets. Our overall operating profit has increased by some seventy percent over the same period last year. The difference between operating profit and profit before tax is of course made up of interest on non-operating items. James will cover er, this area in more detail later in the presentation. Earnings per share are up er, more than forty percent over the same period last year and when the E P S is adjusted to take account of the non-operating items, the figure has increased by nearly ninety percent. We said on twenty seventh July that we planned to pay an unchanged dividend for the full year. Accordingly, the board has declared an unchanged interim dividend of five point three seven five P per share. Altogether then er, an encouraging set of results and I'll hand you over to Frank to take us through them in more detail. Good morning everyone. Well, as you can see from that slide, a much better first half with four of our, four out of six of our businesses getting brownie points, especially newspapers and the merchant banking. And there are good reasons why the other two are as they are, and I'll explain that in due course. So, I'll start with the book businesses. Book sales show a, a nice increase in er, in sales revenue, especially in the U K, which is up seventeen percent overall. Penguin U K is gaining sale and market share and in North America the sales are only slightly down on last year, which was a very exceptional year anyway. Longman did particularly well in the U K, although coeternal markets were difficult and er, sales in the schools markets in er, North America was hard going for Addison Wesley, with U S physical problems restricting the,amou money that schools had to er, had to use. But we did particularly well in colleges. Moving to profits for the book companies, these are slightly down, but this isn't indicative of a full year and the general outlook is er, is good. The Penguin profits pattern followed the sales pattern, that is to say an increase in the U K more than offsetting er, a decline in the U S. Longman had a very, very er, very good increase in profits and the Addison Wesley loss, which is bigger in the first half than usual er, isn't something that bothers me particularly, I'm really quite relaxed about full year performance, but just to make sure they're er, attacking erm, expenses, travel, administration, that kind but nothing in the erm, book investment programme. Newspapers, apart from Les Echo erm, advertisement volumes were pretty flat. Les Echo managed a nice increase in financial advertising, but elsewhere volumes were flat erm, and so the revenue increased has depended on er, rate increases, changes in the mix or circulation revenue, with a mixture of cover price increases and some increases in circulation. Profits are well up, cost reduction obviously played a major part in this and the F T group is er, fifty five percent up on last year and this is against the background of a five percent drop in advertisement volume and we have an eleven percent drop in advertisement volume from the continent of Europe erm, which of course doesn't affect other national newspapers. The Economist and Les Echo both recorded record circulations once again, and Recolleters that's our partnership in Spain, as you will recall er, their profits continued to buck the trends in a very tough market. The Westminster Press cost budget is now adjusted and they're currently trading at a nine percent margin which would be ten percent if it wasn't for the er, expenditure on er, Yorkshire on Sunday er, the circulation of which is growing very nicely. Er, and I expect that margin to continue rising and be much higher again next year, so the medicine is working there. Entertainment, we divide our entertainment into two parts, television and attractions. So starting with television, we said at the er, announcement of the Doulton, Camco demerger that we intended to develop further in the visual media, and so we are setting up a T D, T V division in which we'll place all of our T V interests, at present just Thames, the investment in B Sky B and er, Yorkshire Tyne Tees, but watch this space, we e we intend to add to this er, division. Now, obviously I'm not going to talk about profits from the T V division just now, because Thames only came in at the half year, and we're not including any profits from B Sky B in the half year, but it's likely that we'll take some de-loan stock interest in at the year end. Attractions they've produced a very commendable rise in revenue and profits er, from the Tussaud group, although as you will recall most of the profits in the group come in July and August. But despite the recession there was an exceptional increase in attendances. Marylebone Road was up by eight point two percent, Rock Circus attendances were up by twenty eight percent and Chessington twenty one percent. Even at White Castle and Alton Towers, both of which recorded record attendances last year, they were up by fourteen percent and sixteen percent respectively. And we achieved an increase in the spend per head, so the Tussaud group is a real tale of success. Let's now turn to the non-media businesses. Starting with Camco, the newly appointed Chief Executive er, has been very, very active and has made a great impact already. Even the products division which has been a long time drag on profitability improved its performance, and was well up too. The overall excellent improvement in first half performance is masked by a technical transfer last year, which of course isn't repeated this year and this year a provision of, formerly in pounds following the settlement of a civil anti-trust suit. Er, I make a point of never saying I told you so, but we did expect the upturn to come, because fundamentally stru er, Camco is a strong business. Fine china sales have improved but the profit hasn't and this needs some explanation. We've been incurring costs on two fronts, redundancy and also reducing factory stocks, short time working and this has brought down margins and profits, but the cash flow's improving and despite poor conditions in Europe and Japan er, volume and unit value of orders is er, increasing slowly. That brings us to investment banking and I'll leave you here since er, James our, James financial director's the director of Lazzards and he's gonna go through the Pearson financials. He er, he will cope with Lazzards at the same time, so James, over to you. Thank you Frank. Well, it's been a good half year for investment banking. Just to remind you er, we have a fifty percent interest in Lazzard brothers and a ten percent interest in the New York and Paris partnerships. In New York er, most of you will be well aware that the I P O and market remains extraordinarily healthy and there have been therefore er, excellent opportunities for securities, profits and erm, therefore New York had its best first half ever. I i in London there's been a good improvement across the board, a much healthier corporate finance climate and Lazzards has er, been pretty prominent in the rights issues in the first half of the year. If we then go back to er, look at the profits as a whole, there are just three items I'd like to comment on, the corporate expenses as other income er, has obviously had a dramatic improvement. This reflects, effectively, the sale of another of our shares in Cedar Fayre The profit on sale of fixed assets comes right down, as you again er, I think all know, we've had the benefit of our last of shares and we're actually rather pleasantly surprised that we were able to er, sell some land at Lakeside to CostCo, which is why we have some profit of three million er, for the first half of ninety three. Change in the interest charge reflects no more than the impact of the stronger dollar on our U S dollar interest costs. Going on down er, the profit and loss account, the tax charge er, is lower as a percentage than it was this time last year. This time last year we actually were a little too conservative. We normally try and estimate the full year tax charge and then apply it to six months and we got it wrong. Further point has helped er, keep the tax charge well down in ninety three, is that the, there is no tax on the non-operating items, they're tax free effectively, whereas that wasn't true a year ago. As a result, adjusted earnings are up very helpfully as you can see. If I can turn to the balance sheet, it's a little more complicated, we're in a rather odd position at the thirtieth of June of incorporating the Thames er, balance sheet because our offer went unconditional. We haven't paid for it and therefore er, we er, you see a rather large item for provisions and minorities, that includes the ninety nine million consideration that er, went out of the door in July, as well, of course , as the substantial provisions that Thames made, in their own accounts for their property leases and for er, potential losses on the disposal of Reeves their West Coast, U S production company. They erm, the Thames investment in Astra is er, another reason for, in fact the principal reason for the increase in associates and investments, working capital is a simple, a seasonal outflow which has been, again by the stronger dollar and the reduction in shareholders funds compared with the thirty first of December er, reflects the eighty six million pound good will write off on Thames. Net debt as you can see er, from the next slide and indeed it was in the balance sheet er, it was a hundred and seventy million against a hundred and eighty five on thirtieth of June. Erm, that isn't an entirely accurate reflection on our performance er, there are two factors. Er, we've flattened the one hand by the inclusion of Thames' own cash of twenty seven million, but on a year and year comparison the erm, the dollar, the sterling value of our dollar debt was fifty two million pounds higher, so in fact we have reduced net debt on, at an operating level year on year. The other feature, I think, of the debt that's worth drawing your attention to is a sharp shift towards variable debt compared to a year ago, a number of our swaps have matured, we've put one new one in er, some of our medium term notes have matured in the, in the States and we're at last in a position to take more advantage of er, lower, short term variable interest rates than we were. With that I'll hand you back to Michael . We'd now like to take questions. Erm, I was wondering if you'd perhaps like to tell us how you're going to manage your er, your . Well, I think Frank mentioned er, that we were forming a T V division and I think, Frank you might like to say more. Well we'll, we'll set that up with a board of its own erm, as an operating board and each of our divisions has an operating board erm, and that means it will have a finance director, it will have, and it will have a Chief Executive er, and there'll be one or two other people on that board, such as er, Mark , Development Director er, and er, we'll go from there. Can you give some idea as to what the er, can you give some idea as to what the underlying sales growth was in the first half? You've got the nineteen percent and, as the statement says, there was some degree of benefit from currency. What was the underlying? James, can you give that accurate? . Absolutely. Sales er, of their hundred and thirty million increase in sales erm, seventy seven million exchange, fifty two million er, underlying . Yes? Could you break down the profit of the F T group between Les Echo and, and the F T in the U K? I don't think we normally do that. I think in broad terms we can say that er, Les Echo comparatively did better than the F T. But Yes er, the F the F T er, did improve er, Les Echo improved,Recolleters improved, the Economist was slightly down on last year, but remember, the Economist were at record profits last year and erm, so even maintaining their, their profits or just dropping is a good performance. And again, I wouldn't regard that as indicative of a full year. Yes? Can you erm, quantify what costs were taken above the line in the first half in terms of redundancy costs, restructuring costs,in the presentation to some restructuring again in the fine china division and how that compared to last year? Redundancy costs for the first half of three point two million, nought point seven million less than ninety two. Yep, for the group. Is there expectations that there will be any more redundancy costs in the second half? Frank. Erm, yes. There could, there could well be more redundancy in the second half er, declining, but there could still be a little. Er, overall you know, we're constantly looking where, for reducing staffing levels and where we see opportunity of that, we do it. Er, and that usually involves redundancy. So we don't regard it as ever static, but er, the major push on redundancies is over. You have in the past actually erm how much you think you've lowered your cost basis by over, over a period Hmm. a period of two and a half, three years now. Can you quantify that again? Erm, I couldn't answer that off the top of my head but we'll erm, I'll let you have the information. I'll write to you and give you the information. Yes? Just, just so that we can erm, make sure for the cabaret committee you haven't given yourself enormous pay rises in the first half can you, can you split out in the corporate expenses less other, what the er, er, profit on the sale of some of your Cedar Fayre investment was? Yes, that's fine. It's, it's effective of the whole of the increase. Erm, let me just erm of the, of the change, the five million change it's, it's in accounts for over four and there is small odds and ends changes otherwise. A very modest increase in underlying costs, I assure you. How many shares have you got left in Cedar Fayre David. Erm, we have about four and a half percent to five percent of the company left. Erm, could you give us some idea as to what the level of the accrue er, fees on loans guarantees and, and so forth on the erm, James. So what we're gonna be taking in and when? What you're owed Ya, well, I haven't got the, yes, the backlog is very substantial er, in terms of things like guaranteed fees and erm, non-stock interest but it's a long way out er, I mean if we add it all up, you might be far too impressed by the figure but I think erm, we know that's the right way of looking at it. What we've got is, as you know there's a hierarchy of repayment er, starting with the de-loan stock interest which is the, the last funding and then there's the maiden dividend and then there's guarantee fees and then there's erm, sorry, before that is senior loan stock interest from B S B H and then guarantee fees. So, they kick in at different stages. What we think as, as Frank said erm, our policy is to accrue erm, income, which we think we'll get in cash terms the following year, ie, we're not gonna accrue it as soon as B Sky B expenses it, which is one end of the spectrum of erm, imprudence you could say or, and the other end, extreme prudence is to account for nothing until it's cleared er, in the bank balance. We, we now think it's appropriate to strike a medium balance, therefore we'll get the de-loan stock interest up to ninety three, we'll take in, in this year, which we expect to get next year. And how much of the cash received? I mean there's something you still owe to er, to Reed To Reed Erm, right, who knows the terms of the Reed Mark, do we know that one? Not off the top of my head. What we're paying them on. We're certainly paying, I, I, I think it's capital receipts, is it off, is it only the capital receipts on the interest. They had a lot of capital payments also and we have as it were the erm, the P & O element er, with B Sky B which is the erm, the items I've gone through. Then you have a number of loan repayments, and you're quite right, there is a, there is a ma an amount will be paid to Reed equivalent to, I E we're not gonna pay them the interest for the capital receipts but when amount, we receive money we're paying it on. That means we will still refracting it in our P & O account but the cash flow terms will be neutral. And I think a significant point is that for the first time in ninety three we were likely to take something in, in relation to B Sky B. Yes, well actually Nigel was ha was first. Same thing, right. It follows on from that question, it comes, you've got a line B Sky B er, you've got a line B Sky B in the T V er, division so it presumably, that loan interest is coming in that division, is that right, rather than net if off against interest? I'm afraid we're not allowed to er, Neil. Er, I think for management purposes and for presentation purposes, we will erm, presentation but certainly in terms of our accounts erm, we have no option but to exempt the giving interest receivable but to erm, impress you with the modesty of our, of our interest and therefore how good our interest cover is. Maybe that's, that's erm, that's what the erm, that's what Coopers and the accounted principles require. That although it's erm, in our mind and yours, identify with a specific investment. Just following, following on from that. The er, Thames er, investment, how is that doing and have you sold Reeves yet? Thanks, er well, Thames is doing rather well. You, you, I'm sure you read about the twenty two million pound deal with er, B B C and er, and there are, there are other deals in the offing. Er,Reeves has been sold er, and so erm, the cost of that has been er, crystallized now and so that's no longer a problem. And the pr we're er, I would expect the profits of Thames to be in line with that that we expected when we acquired the business. Yes? Can you tell us a bit more about Addison Wesley and why you feel relaxed with that? Addis er, Addison Wesley and why we're relaxed. Addison, well er, it's a very well managed business, it's a very good business er, there are only two businesses in the U S A have higher sales per head than Addison Wesley, and one of those is and it's had a, that's had a super time in maths and there's only one business and that's which earns more profit per employee then er, Addison Wesley and erm, again that's and that reflects that one off maths programme. Erm, and we're doing very well in college. So er, and the Chief Executive there would er, I think commit suicide if he, if he brought in less profits than the year before. So I'm quite relaxed and they're attacking the costs as well. That is not a forecast. When will, when will these constraints be relaxed? Well that's, that's an . Mr Clinton or Mrs Clinton , I'm not sure. Unpredictable. Yes? Can you just say a little bit more about erm, the structure of the, the T V board, will you be looking to make any external appointments to fill those positions er, and secondly, following on from that erm, as you said you, you had a look at Star T V and came off empty handed. Do you still have interests in, in that part of the world with regards to broadcast? Er, I'll answer the second part of the, the question. I'll hand the first one over to Frank. Er, yes we do er, our overall television strategy has been to establish er, a U K base, where we are restricted because of the newspaper ownership in most cases other than B Sky B to twenty percent, though the rules may change and our strategy is to develop er, overseas, both in erm, er, broadcasting and, and, and in programming. Er, as we can make the opportunities available. There are opportunities out there and people tend to think of, or sometimes think of deals as being unique deals and they're unique in themselves, but there are always other unique deals that can be found. Yes er, Richard will be on that board and er, and we also accept, expect erm, further outside appointments. Appointment anyway, and possibly appointments. Yes? I suppose one wonders whether the Financial Times feels un uneasy about the proposed reduction in the price of the er, of the Times, as, as no doubt the Independent, probably the, the Telegraph. Well, I was discussing that with Frank last night and he actually pointed out that it might help the sales of the Financial Times because er, er the F T's very often bought as a second newspaper and if you get your first newspaper cheap, you've got more change in your pocket. Actually, the Financial Times it comes in a completely different position to erm, the Independent and, and, and the Guardian and even the Telegraph. To start with it's a specialist newspaper and secondly erm, the, the F T is, is profitable and erm, even if, even in a great recession and erm, the other element is we every year increase our overseas sales, six percent. Erm, specialist newspapers, I really don't expect the Times erm, to have any effect on the F T's sale. Could you just on that remind us what the current, what the cover price is as a percentage of revenues in the F T? Roughly eighty twenty. I mean it, obviously it varies according to whether it's, whether advertising's booming, but in, in overall, over time it can work on twenty percent on the revenue coming from the cover price and about eighty percent coming from er, from advertisements and so, it's, it's, it's not a major, major figure. Incidentally, I'm not surprised the er, the Times is reducing its price. I think it's about right now. I think that's a re terrible comment. Yes? Sir, can you give us an idea of the growth within the electronic business in the F T. In er,terms, they er, they're growing very well. Erm, profitably, profitability isn't, isn't as good. We, we've been growing something like er, twenty five percent per annum. I think this year speaking from memory it was something like fifteen, sixteen percent er, increase this year erm, but er, we're getting to the stage now where it's, it's getting into profit and so we're quite pleased with the growth there. Are you still developing your presence in Japan? Yes, yes, we erm, we're obviously in Japan and erm, and increasing the sales slowly there but it's a very good market for us, very good advertisement market er, for us and er, I think I've told you before, even before, before the recession, it started, it looked as if we would recoup the extra spending in the first year. Sad to say the recession overtook that but it's, it's developing strongly again there now. It's not costing you money? It's costing us a bit of money but er, you know, we don't do these things for the short term, er What's a bit, a million a year or? Er, well, the extra costs was two million a year er, and at the end of the first six months in the first year we'd, we'd, we'd achieved a million extra revenue, so it looks as if we've paid for it. But it's probably costing us about er, three quarters of a million to a million just now net. You've shown that you've moved erm, substantially towards variable debt but there is obviously an outburst currency impact, you said in the first half. How is your debt, your gross debt currently constituted and where is your cash held? Cash is overwhelmingly in sterling erm, can I just look up and remind my erm, refresh me on that. The erm, the gross borrowings, the dollar is the overwhelming element in, in terms of we have about erm, two hundred and thirty five million of sterling debt, two bond issues and some old loan stocks and then the rest of it, that's gross debt and, and some of that swaps, you know. All the, almost all are sterling except a little bit of, of Camco cash, which is in U S dollars, is in sterling and then erm, we have really a similar amount of U S dollar debt and small amounts of Canadian and French franc, peseta and Ozzie dollar where we really gear simple finance, small investments in those countries, under a hundred percent. We have offices, now we have erm, a genuine French franc exposure to Les Echo but apart from that we don't really bother. Is it possible to tell us how your advertising revenue performed in the first half on your Westminster Press and F T and whether you've experienced any improvements in sits vac advertising since the end of the first half? Yes it is and I'll hand it to Frank. Advertisement er, revenue at Westminster Press ended the six months at about the, advert revenue about the same level as last year but it was below last year's level early on, so in other words erm, advertisement volume is growing, because there's next to no, there's, the yield is about the same overall. Erm, so volume has been gradually growing as the year progresses and erm, and more so in the last erm, the last say six weeks of the er, of the half year. So, I would expect that to continue and expect erm, revenue to get ahead of last year. Erm, as I said F T volumes are flat but er, they, they, they did achieve an increase in the yield erm, but forward bookings are much better at the F T and October looks rather better, so I think advertisement volumes are, are on the increase. Situations vacant, in Westminster Press there was an increase in the south er, in volume terms, in the southern divisions, not in the northern divisions but then the northern divisions didn't experience the same problems with sits vac and are much more profitable. I mean Northern Echo at Darlington, Bradford, York, Kendal, they're all very profitable businesses er, and so they're, but they haven't had any increase in sits, in sits vac. Where, and Financial Times has had some increase in, in sits vac too, which is a high yielding er, category of course. The, the deal of Lazzards of New York erm, comes in the second half, I presume and does the B M P er, flotation commence also in the second half ? I think that remains to be seen. I mean, Just a bit more about Camco second half is, given these little plus and minuses you've had in the first, first half, what's coming in the second? Well, erm, it's difficult to make forecasts, particularly with the S E C breathing down one's neck but I think one can say that the industry conditions, if you were to read the reports of other companies and for us, is pretty much erm, status quo, in other words the domestic excuse me, domestic industry's doing quite well, the rig, the rig count's up, the Canadian rig count's up, international markets remain rather soggy but some of them are qui you know on a, on a selective basis some are quite good. For example the erm, Frank referred to doing quite well and some of that was due to sales into the former Soviet Union. Erm, the erm, the erm, the erm, er, settlement of the anti tr civil anti trust law suit that was referred to in the statement was erm, costs of about six million dollars this year on a class action law suit which we have reached a tentative settlement on in the last few days and, in fact, there were some, there was about six to seven million dollars of additional provision made at the end of last year in the one time charges that we referred to at that time but couldn't really identify with erm, lawyers breathing down your necks in the United States and er, this is a class action law suit, would have been in a Texas Court and erm, you know, the boiler plate language is that you want to get rid of the, you know, the expense and uncertainty of this type of litigation and if you think that what a Texas jury did to Texaco, it's probably a prudent decision to close the matter off at this time. Is it a recent provision order, that? Well, they're making a new one. It's a combination of costs incurred this year plus provision to cover erm, the costs of the settlement, legal expenses and other allied, and other related items. With, with regards to Camco's Eastern European sales drive, does this have any er, implications in terms of er, working capital movements, in terms of helping them fund those acquisitions and what sort of er, provisions perhaps, are you taking on those sales? Erm, I'm not sure I quite understand the question. Well, in terms of er, bad debt. Erm, we gen gen generally speaking sales into places like the former Soviet Union and other parts of the world are done against letters of credit, so generally speaking there are not erm, bad debt problems. You know, one or two inci one or two isolated incidents but overall erm, the erm, business in the oil service industry is done on, on erm, er, a letter of credit terms. Er, how did the entertainment businesses do in July and August? Frank. They, they did very well. Good attendances and Alton Towers particularly is erm, is, is er, booming, doing very strong business and also has one or two promotionals, er promotional activities which should er, extend the se extend that er, later in the season. So, it's going well. Erm, I seem to remember that when we met earlier in the year and you were looking forward to, to, to this year as a whole, I think you er, indicated that it was going to be a good year and I think you also suggested, if I remember right, that you thought the better part of that improvement would be seen in the second half rather than the first. I wonder, if I got it right and I remember it correctly, whether that's still the view? Well, I think that I bore people endlessly by saying that erm, the first half results are not an indication of the year as a whole because we make the bulk of our pro profits in the second half and you know, that remains, that remains true. I think at the time of the er, of the A G M, I said we were pleased by the prospects and in the current statement I say the outlook continues promising, but I don't think at any point we've made more of a forecast than that. Are you gonna repeat the miracle of the first half and sen sell some more land in Thurrock in the second half? I'll turn that to Mark , cos I'm not on the Thurrock committee. I, I think I would be unwise too to make a forecast, so all, all I can say is there are some enquiries around of er, people who appear to be interested but erm, er, you know, the burden hangs quite a lot, you know the burden's still, the is quite a long way away still, but it's not impossible we could sell some more land. You've got, you've got the cash from CostCo, haven't you? Yes, yeah, yes, yes. Er, sorry, just to follow up on B Sky B again, are you gonna be accruing for any arrears in the interest er, in the second half, as well as the ongoing amount? Yes, yes, we'll get, we'll get the ninety two and ninety three erm interest for in ninety, in the second half. So what you would have had for the whole of ninety two and the whole of ninety three will all come in, will all come in the second half of ninety three. Right, thanks. Yeah, on the, on the de on the de-loan stock. Yes? Would it be helpful to give some order of magnitude here, James? Yes, Chairman. Less, less than ten million. Yes. Brilliant management. Well, one of the reasons it er, bucked the trend was because Is this Les Echo? Yeah, one of the reasons it bucked the trend was because we've erm, ground one of our competitors into the dust and he's had to combine with another newspaper there and that too is struggling. Incidently, it's just had a change of ownership erm, a well-financed new owner but we're, we're still confident of our position there. No, no, he actually got erm, erm, a nice increase in, in fin in financial advertising. I don't want to give you the impression it's buoyant there, it isn't. Could you say anything about your extension plans, I mean have they changed much, or what might they do in Tokyo? Not much, well probably about sixty million for, for the year I'd say. Or a bit more. They always, they always lag as you know, our, our, we always underspend capital in the first half against what our division think they're gonna do and they always think they're gonna catch it up in the second half, they never do but erm, it won't be, you know, it won't be materially different. Well, I think the budget's ninety, in the nineties but we don't expect to spend more than sixty million. Yeah,, we won't spend that much. Somewhere in between, let's say. Your Royal Doulton, you might have some idea of how the er, different brands are doing. You mentioned in the annual report and accounts that Expressions was meant to be doing very well although its more up market brands were slightly more sluggish. Er, can the future Chairman answer that? I haven't got the detailed figures er, er, with me but er, I believe that still is the case, that er, er, people's eating habits are er, that dining habits as it were er, are changing somewhat and the er, the everyday china market is, is possibly more buoyant than the er, erm, the Royal Crown and Minton. Would you make any conscious decision to move slightly down market or less up market? I myself wouldn't use that phrase. I think that er, er, what I would say is that er, we would follow the markets erm, where they lead us. And the answer's yes. The fine china's er, doing er, quite well in, in Japan actually and that's starting to pick up again. Any, shall I say a couple more questions? If anybody's got one. No, no more questions. Well, thank you very much indeed. Come in. Doctor , as you're finished would you mind seeing the next ? No problem. Thank you. Esther . She's supposed to have Tamazepan and Frumil is it okay for her to take these? Yes. So you've just changed them? . Aye. Fine. Eh? Right. Yeah, she's alright. She won't die with those. Alright. Oh, What shall I do with you then? Well I, do you mean for me? Yeah, yeah. Well I, I've come for b blood pressure. those Right, let's have a look, oh yes. That's right. tablets you gave me That's right. I, I don't want to see any more of them. Oh dear I'm sorry to hear that. After after a fortnight I couldn't walk up the street without stopping for a breather. They made you short of breath? Ooh terrible. Right, okay. Oh dear. And er I couldn't I mean I do a lot of gardening there were n no problems at all, so I took them t well you can see what's left. So you've stopped them? I took thirteen and I've got some of me old Diodide so went back on to them. I, I think that was entirely the right thing to do, entirely the right thing to do. Well I'm sorry about that. Every time I sat down I went to sleep. Oh well, that's no good then is it? And er, No. Okay, let me check what it is today. It, I mean it has been going up rather high, this has been Yeah. a problem of course. Let Yeah. me see what it is and there's a chance it's actually down Yeah, Because of the Etenalol but er But it's two Let's have a look. weeks since I took any of those. Well it's certainly right that you ought to stop anything that makes you feel worse. And Yeah. it's er No pain at all No. but you know, walking I've had to stop twice. Well that's no use is it? That's what? No apparent reason. Okay, this'll squeeze your arm a bit Any ankle swelling or palpitations? No I've nothing, any palpitations, nothing, I feel as fit as I did twenty years ago. I've got two great I do,I'm always cycling I never, very seldom ride anyway on buses and I ain't got no car, no car. And I feel as tip-top, I can eat, I've no bowel trouble or nothing. Yeah. I can sleep, eat. Good. Your blood pressure is still up, Yeah. a bit. Yeah. It's not up an awful lot but it is still up a bit. And I'm sure it'd be well worth er, er getting this down, no. Dies are you back on Diesiodinate doing the trick Well I've been taking them yeah, What I, what I suggest we do is we take this opportunity of having to review, to sort of have a complete overview and actually do, run a few er routine blood tests at this stage as well. Okay? I would erm suggest what we do is we stop the Dieside and put in something else, you know, just to keep you on on I don't really want to have you on a combination of lots No. of drugs. No, no. I'd rather just have you on one preparation and then we see what happens. Now the question is, what is erm going to be the most suitable for you? Hmm. I think what we'll do is try this, which is called Doxazocin there you go, that's an instantly forgettable name for you. Yeah , yeah. Mm. Okay, but it does have the advantage in it, it's a has it's a very clean drug. Yeah. It's a very clean, so side effects are very very rare, that's right,Now we, I'm going to give you two sizes, cos you need to start on the lower dose first. Yeah And what I would do, have you had your Dieside today? Yes. Okay, doesn't matter, your blood pressure's still up. What I should do is take the first one tonight. Yes. Because what new drugs can do is they can put your blood pressure down quite quickly. Which means if you're standing up, you Yeah. can get rather faint and wobbly. Yeah. So if you take the first one immediately before you go to bed, if your blood pressure does go down rather a lot, it doesn't matter cos you're lying down, you'll Yeah. be fine. And if you're okay, you can carry on taking one in the morning. One in the morning Okay? And the seven days at the low dose and then I'd like you to go onto the slightly higher dose, which is still a low dose, Yeah. for the rest of the time. And then we can bri check your blood pressure back. So, if that's okay, that's what we'll do. Yeah. Stop the Dieside Yes. take these back to the chemist, Yes. and if you can see our practice nurse in a few weeks Yes. okay, and then see me in about five weeks, Right, okay. something like that. Then we can How will have a look at the blood tests Yeah. I'll write down what I want her to do, Mm. we can have a look at the blood tests, we can see what the blood pressure is. If you have any side effects from the new ones, then you should come back straight Yes. away. Right. Okay? Yeah. But I think, I'd be very surprised if you do, so so Shall I know which is which in the tablets, Yes they'll be clearly labelled. Yeah. Mhm. And I think I'll ask her to do an electrical tracing of your heart, just for completeness as well, Yeah. I think. Okay. Now then it's , isn't it?? That's right, yeah. Well I've been on them Diodides for six year now. Yeah I know, but your blood pr I mean they did d they were doing you very well but blood pressure does tend to rise, as you get older Yeah yeah. and I think that's what Probably if it hadn't have been for Sister Helen and I would have never have been able to b catch the at all because I never came to see a doctor. You d then we, we'd have er we'd have summoned you by now, don't worry. You think so? Oh yes. Ah ah. I'm saying years ago my old dad, he, he were eighty nine and he never had a blood test in his life. Well Pressure or anything. if you go back even You think I could have some of that I pu i m Melorose or something, for dry eyes. I, I have got it on the prescription I had to get it Doctor sent me to the hospital, Yeah. and there's nothing wrong with my eyes at all, they said dry. Ju dry yeah I'll put one of those on for you. Cos they're a bit irritable at night. Yeah okay. If you only go back ten fifteen years, it wasn't realized fully how many problems are out there, Yeah, that don't cause people any symptoms until something happens and it's too late. That's right, yeah. Er that's becoming more recognized, which is why we do more routine things on people who appear fa yeah, it Yeah, that's right,. So as you say years at I'm No no, I mean so ill because I couldn't afford it No no. but I Well sometimes we overdo I think, but anyway. So there's, there's two sixes. Yeah. The little ones there's only seven of and that's Yes. one a day. Yes. And I said, if you take the first dose tonight. Yes. I j write that, the first dose, dose tonight. Tonight, yeah. And then If I take if I take one at night after that, it's have I to take another one in the morning? If you're okay , yes, yeah. And if you feel completely weak and wobbly, Yes. then we better see you before you have any more. That has never happened to me yet, first dose problems No, no no but it's something to be slightly aware of, so And if I can see, if you say you've had the blood test done in around, I dunno, two weeks, at your convenience and then if you see me in about five, which will be at the end of those, which So arrangements to have a blood test then, Mm. in about a fortnight? Please, yes. Yeah. Okey-doke. These, the chemist can have these back? Yes, please, he can then dispose of them. I'm sorry about that but er is this yours? Well I, I wondered. Yes, I Yes, don't forget that. I wondered what was going on really, because I mean it just at least I can take them Yeah, yeah. It's got the wife worried, It's not a common it isn't a common problem at all that. No Okay? Yes, Apologies for absence Councillor Peter , Mrs Pat , Sir John , Mr Peter and Mrs and David apologize, they will be attending but they'll be a few minutes late. Alright. Minutes of the meeting held on the seventeenth November. Right, er matters arising from the minutes. Nothing on page one , page two, page three, page four, page five, page six, page seven. Yeah page seven er er I think that speaking from memory we did want that made clear that that er was the recognition of the achievements of the groundsman handyman, particularly in relation to the high standards of upkeep in the park. That's right. I think it's important that that should er be madam chairman. We also agreed that erm performance assessment reports in the future would be provided by the chair and finance after considering the recommendations of the chairman of the recreation ground committee and the clerk. Don't these minutes No no no I didn't query them Sorry. because, but I just felt that er those particular aspects were important for future year, because of the er discussions that took place. Erm we are dealing with public funds and er and those that particular minute I think relate to detailed discussions that took place before approval was given. I wrote to both and the handyman and said that is was for a performance related bonus and er Yeah that's fine. An anything else from the minutes? Can we go on to the minutes of the committee meeting of sixth December then. Anything arising from them page one page two page three Right, we we're not doing the minutes for the tenth of January because you've only just got the copies this evening so that's being erm, we'll go through those at the next meeting. Financial statement, bills for payment. queries Has anyone got any queries about them ? Erm can I just mention then about the car park and the total cost of it now. Okay. Erm just to go over the payments for the car park which has come up actually under community industries and the plants, the total being now for plants it was four hundred and forty four pounds er and the gravel, right gravel and plants and what was the other bit? And there was some wood for planking Wood for planking. Erm and then the actual, the labour charges from the er what are they called Community Community community industries, labour charges for car park were eight hundred and twenty two fifty but that's got to have the VAT deducted from it. Erm so it's a total of approximately one thousand Skip hire. Skip hire. Oh skip hire as , four hundred pounds. That makes it a total of about one thousand five hundred. From that we have six hundred and fifty allowed for the car park from last year for paper bank money, four hundred and five recycle money just come in, Yes. from the paper bank and four hundred pounds worth of grant, two hundred from the county council and two hundred from the district council, so added up car park . Mm. Okay? Yes. Yes. I I mean I think I think in retrospect the erm this isn't intended as a criticism erm of past work, but I do think we need to look at getting as much volunteer help in the town towards volun volunt environmental achievements as possible because one of our one of our claims is that we're cost effective and can galvanize voluntary effort, and if we erm put all of our work out to tender including relatively small works, we're actually going to negate that particular claim and we're gonna look as as as er cost cost wasteful as the district council and the county council in their use of professional help all the time, even though there may be people in the community who are prepared to help. I think we need to plan our projects so that we can galvanize voluntary efforts as much as possible, particularly in small projects er when they come up in future. I think that's an important part of our claim. Erm we criticize the county council because it's always using professional professional work rather than voluntary help, er because that's the way they choose to do it, er if we continue this line . I think can I just say one thing we did actually h it wasn't community industry erm the people that did it I don't know They they trained that's the to be honest because erm it's and that I won't say that there's a criticism of this particular project which I supported at the time but I think that in future we do need to plan our projects and and there are people in the in the town that are prepared to work, perhaps need a bit of organizing, we need to think about how that might happen, but we mustn't first reaction go to professional or semiprofessional help. Any more erm it may be erm a a good idea to use it as a erm as a first scheme perhaps to erm to try and er car park and if you look at that at the beginning and just keep it on a on a rolling programme then all that doesn't get so enormous er it doesn't get such a a large task so maybe if er, but it does need coordinating perhaps we should think about it. Yes. Right. Any any other comments on the financial statements? Can you tell me what a planting of a quick is? When the men installed the new er fence on the nature reserve, Mm. that so it doesn't look like a new fence we planted quick. And plants are they? Yes quick plants. I'm sorry. Right well I haven't been to one of the meetings so I can't remember who the, but how are all these contained within the budget, all these costs, and have they all been approved and agreed? What The the bills for payment. I haven't actually done the tally backwards and forwards. I think so. Is there anything that to comment on that? Well er the bills during the month of December and early January erm hire of waste paper skip erm if you if query, the reason we hired the chain saws to save ourselves spending thousands of pounds on doing tree works. We've now got a trained erm chain saw operator working for us. That's saved us about nine hundred and forty pounds . The three hour the recreation chairman asked that we er , standard bills for garage for petrol and Centre for the standard items,. Er I'd like to mention the contribution to the market square refurbishment. Erm Jim asked me if we could pay up er as soon as the job had been done to help them with their cash flow situation district council. Erm I I've allowed Don to have a jacket as he was getting soaked . Erm Out of interest madam chairman,does that mean we've paid the total amount that we we said that we would contribute? Yes. So on the second stage of the refurbishment they're going to pay for the lot? Yes. Er the account of contribution towards cost of the installation of two new footpath lights, this is on the footpath that runs between the School, Church Street side and the minster. Er there was a lady fell over about two months ago on that footpath just at the beginning of the winter, and the cathedral council offered to pay for the installation of a light and what we did we contributed seventy seven pounds which is sixty including V A T to enable a second light to be installed because of the two steps on that footpath, one at each end, erm Did that, I can't remember that coming to the council, did that come to the council? No, no the chairman erm agreed that one out of committee. The reason for that is they wanted to go ahead and produce the two lights. Erm, what happened was the cathedral council one light in at a cost of four hundred and fifty pounds but they couldn't afford the second light, so we got some money from erm the residents who contributed some money, we got some money from the school and there was a shortfall of sixty six pounds thirty one pence for the total bill, so the chairman er . Er we do actually have money in the budget for the actual erm So it may just so it could actually come out of that couldn't it? There is Chairman chairman there seem to be when I looked at it there seem to a number of headings here that I couldn't account for and I've asked the chair of the finance committee, she couldn't account for them either, and I think it's, whilst I understand the reasons for going and I'm sure we would have approved them, I think it's actually quite important that all these small sums,wh when you add them up over this erm over this month and you look at them, are quite large over the budget that we have have already adopted and the things that we wanted to do, and it concerns me that some of these things which are maybe very sensible, actually reduce our effectiveness of doing things that the council's agreed that they are going to do this year and next year, the seventy six pounds here, the thirty pounds later on, fifty four pounds for large thorn plants et cetera, et cetera , and a hundred and fifty pounds over the budget on the Christmas lights. All of those extra sums, if you total them up, we're talking about quite a lot of money over the budget and that's why I'm getting concerned because there seems to be some between what the budget said we were going to do and what a chairman here and a chairman there has agreed, and I I'd like to get it back onto position. Yes I I would agree with that but I wondered, I think perhaps it should be the finance committee, I mean cos I understood that most of these these items are contained within the existing budget, because I mean the individual committees do have have the power to the monies within their own, and I it has it I would agree with Peter that if we have gone over and above the that the committee were working to but I understood that that was not the case, so I . Would you like to comment on that . Yes. There are a number of areas erm John expression was and yet it is possible to find the monies. The the problem we had is because if in December, when we put the Christmas lights up for example, to use that as prime example, we put one erm harness I think it's called on the tree, it was absolutely pathetic. Erm so the Chairman erm erm agreed to this additional purchase. There was no meeting in in erm December. in December so it wasn't actually possible to to sort out these these queries. And I accept there are a number here of items, I mean there's er another one that Peter mentions which was the er large thorn plants to discourage the children from climbing the newly erected fence at the nature reserve. The problem there was the children climbing the fence and with just having spent five hundred and eighty pounds putting a fence up, spent another fifty four pounds although it's not in the budget, I accept that, er was er a necessary expenditure which I took a decision on straight away because I didn't want to see our five hundred pound fence being knocked down within a week of being put up. So I I accept there are a number of items here which I discussed with the chairman and he agreed to. But, I I agree. any more comments on the financial statement and the bills for payment now? correspondence. Right that's Two items. Two items. one of the quotes a new mower from Having received three quotes from three different companies, I wanted the company chosen to agree that they wouldn't exceed a certain price and they have confirmed that the mower we've chosen will not exceed eighteen thousand six hundred and sixty eight pounds and this is for everything, this is the mower including the new cab erm and all the fittings that we wanted included on mower. Right items correspond actually agreeing to that quotation, I wanted to be sure what the other figures were. That was done at a previous meeting, it was Yes I don't You're not agreeing to it are you? No we are. are we ? It's already been ordered. Oh it's been ordered? There there was a a to Madam Chairman where we thought that erm three quotations should be retained, Mm. erm I can't recall erm any quotations having been put for approval but neither can I find anything No. the last council meeting erm so I'm a bit confused as to where we discussed it. We'll find, while he's just finding that look there's just one more item that's erm a Christmas card from so I'll pass that round so you can have a while we're just trying to find . Perhaps it was the October meeting, I can't remember. No. I don't think it was. But I don't know Madam Chairman I recall giving three quotes, twenty one thousand something, nineteen thousand something and eighteen Oh well to confirm that I I've heard it somewhere I mean I'm sure it was one of the meetings . It was. Mm. But wh well what are you looking for now, to see if we actually made a decision on it? Yes. No I asked you for formally for permission to go ahead and go ahead with the . I've looked er erm I think it was when we actually settled the erm the budget er for the various . You know if everybody's happy that we've accepted the lowest quote then fine. Right that that was just a letter for reference anyway Yeah. wasn't it? Ca can you repeat that figure again please? Yes sixteen sorry eighteen thousand six hundred and sixty eight pounds. Thank you. Plus V A T. Plus V A T. Right move onto corres oh no no sorry, representatives' reports. Does anyone have any reports on any of the committees? Just as a matter of interest I was gonna bring up onto the er planning minutes for the tenth of January but as I wasn't allowed er The I had a phone call from the electricity board following the erm erm discussions that we had about the power supply on Road, they'd received a follow up enquiry from the press, if you recall we expressed concern that we thought that secured following the harsh winter three years ago . Sorry just what item is this under, is it are you It's representatives' reports. I'm representing you as the consultative . The reason I'm I'm bringing this up is that the gentleman in question wants to come to the parish council and put on a a short video of the electricity board's er er activities in this area. He's aware of concern expressed by Parish Council and he's going to see them and he will be very happy to come and er speak to us and answer any questions that we wish him to, so I advised him to contact the clerk to make arrangements. I thought this would sort of save Steve having to write a letter as as he'd been er instructed to do. I didn't know where else to get it in. Erm Mr . Er yes chairman. The I'm your representative for the minster governors and I'll be slipping out later on this evening if I may of the installation of the new headteacher,that will be seven minutes time so if you'll excuse me . Alright . appointments which . So perhaps we might need to do might want to until I return, which I shouldn't think will take too long. So you won't be very long then? No. Right. Er Christine. Having said nothing about the er the charity erm erm the meeting on erm the meetings four times a year and we're quite but there are some available for erm people erm and particularly to erm we agreed a list of people who wished to give them Christmas gifts, cash but I'm sure they would help and and erm the names of people who who might need help er are always welcome so if I could just erm erm ask people to let me know if they know of anyone financial help . Thank you, erm anyone else? Well I don't know what this comes under but last or er last Saturday week I had several complaints about the old market square, you know where er and shop is. It was an absolute disgrace, it really was a disgrace, and so as we'd been informed by somebody at , now don't ask me who cos I don't know, but from one of the public meetings we held, er they said you can phone up any time and you y the rubbish would be collected. So I took them at their word and phoned them up. Well the man nearly went through the roof and er, this was a Saturday morning, of course he didn't come, and in the meantime I had another replai re complaint about the path outside the W I hall, again which was a disgrace, not one person but several people. And erm, and then on the Sunday morning, it was the local tradespeople erm who were taking down the Christmas trees and things, they had to clear up, they didn't have to but they did clear up the mess, it was a disgrace. When the man came from I wouldn't know, but I just felt as a op coopted parish councillor that I should make my voice heard on behalf of all the people that complain to me. Right. That's all. Right I mean perhaps Saturday morning isn't the right time to phone but it was probably erm the clerk could perhaps deal with that then. Mm. If they do query it, cos I mean erm it really was a disgrace and I I'm pretty tolerant. I think madam chairman you'll find that there's in the administration that er an officer, he's left and I think replaced. That's probably why she got the response she did . mm. Thank you, we can follow up that up anyway, erm Only because so many people complain, I mean I just had to do something. I did phone the hot line earlier in the week, er because the bin outside School hadn't been emptied for since before Christmas er cos I put a hub cap in there myself which was in the middle of the road, but I phoned them and to be fair to them they responded very politely, very pleasantly, and dealt with it straight away, so erm Mm. apart from the fact by the wayside they did respond immediately . I I've I've only got one report that I went to erm a meeting of the youth club erm in December I think it was, we just had sort of general discussions, nothing really to report erm back on that. We discussed erm erm other places for people to meet et cetera has actually been closed down,some some problem with the isn't it, erm but they can't use it for the public so erm that was , it was just left that we'll have another meeting in March and looking around for alternative places to meet , but that's all to report on that. erm can I suggest then that we questions from from the public. Anyone oh one member of the public here, did you want to No, no. Right then . We can't do item eight because Peter is going to talk about it and he's gone. Could we defer it erm and do the other items first? Is that okay?number eight at the end . Now we can do the reports on the car park. Er Roger, could you do that one please? Er yes. W we have looked into er the question of car parking in Southwell and the possibility of charging for long term parking. Erm the views of the er of the subcommittee are that that this does appear to be er perhaps a practical solution er and at the moment, er we are looking to erm make some of the spaces, certainly in the Church Street car park erm short term, I E two hours, certainly so the people who are who are making shopping visits, or visits to the banks et cetera would get the lower car park and the the people who are staying for a longer time would be at the top. Er in relation to King Street er car park, there are there are complications in relation to er the usage of the car parking spaces erm and the health centre and on street car parking erm and we are going to do er further work in surveying the usage of those spaces and how we could perhaps better allocate them to ensure that there are erm spaces available for people who need to get to the surgery and the subcommittee will be reporting back to the council. Erm the cost of capital costs of of signing er will also be looked at and then a further report from the subcommittee to the council . Does anyone have any comments? Could I ask through you chair er how this system is going to be policed? That is the problem erm in so far as initially er we felt that it that that the onus would be on the individual, I E if it's a short term stay car park they would not use it. Erm and one would have to see the the effectiveness of that. What one doesn't want to do er is is by having to police the situation cause a charge to be erm brought up against the council. Erm so it's a question of how one can best do it, but initially it would be er the onus would go on the individual to use the the spaces not designated as short stay. I think the regrettable thing about the parking in in the town is the way that some of the disabled slots at the surgery are taken by the cars of people who are perfectly able to walk from the car park, and I think the great problem we're going to have is we're going to rely on the public spiritedness of our fellow townspeople and there does seem to be a fair group of people who are extremely selfish when it comes to come to parking. Well shall I tell you that a certain member of the er medical staff, you know they've got bollards where the staff can put their cars in a certain place, and one member of the staff came out and said, please remove your car it's in the staff parking part, the person said, yes I even had to move the bollard. Well I mean how do you win I'm not sure. I think we have quite a task of public education . I don't know what happened but I think . The problem in the doctors' surgery, I mean you've got people taking ill sick children round there with high temperatures and , and they do tend want to park close to the surgery, er and if they see a space they will obviously use it. I think it's a difficult situation, I mean I know in er in Nottingham now, if the car parks are full, you actually get directed by the attendant to use a disabled space. Erm so it does mean that as parking becomes more and more congested, it the subject does become more and more topical. But I agree with Stuart, I think what we've got be careful is that if we're gonna introduce something, it is actually erm capable of being enforced and it's very difficult to see us an enforcing agent. If I recall er when that er the King Street car park was given to the town by the benefactors we did want entrance er at the top end of the car park for the people who shopped which saved a lot of people coming round that dangerous corner where you know we've had one fatal accident there, and I just wondered whether we should take this under the umbrella while er we're actually discussing it. Well that's interesting because yes we have we have discussed that and I don't know whether the er the clerk wants to comment further but I think that is absolutely right and and if that could be taken further it would be of very positive benefit to you know the car parking problem for those people who want to shop on King Street and have difficulties in find a car parking space . The district council actually commented to me that they'd like to see that entrance opened where that er derelict building is at the top end of Church Street car park, which would be an ideal entrance. We did nearly get it through once didn't we, years ago? No, no. I can't remember what snag, I think the person or something, I can't remember details but we nearly had an entrance at that end of the car park which in my opinion was you know, a lot of the people There is an entrance at the moment. The top of the top of Church Street car park through top of Church Street car park to King Street. Well how There needs to be an entrance there then? No, no. For pedestrians you're suggesting, not Pedestrians. Oh yes oh yes pedestrians. Oh yes, sorry . Well can I say that er we'll we'll take that on board rather more positively, Mm. er at the subcommittee and report back. And and can the clerk look into the details when this, I think . Yes. You know, there should be some document somewhere. Erm I'd hate it to er we get charging away and We aren't intending to charge. No, well income from that? No we're not, no we're not er Anyone else anything to add on that? No? Purchase of play equipment for Gardens playing field and the recreation ground. . We have actually erm got a number of leaflets and brochures on play equipment but erm as was mentioned at the last meeting I was going to get together with David and the clerk to discuss future plans for play equipment but we haven't actually had a meeting yet cos we're still getting information from various reps and playground equipment companies and erm we'll leave that item for now. Erm item sorry Wh while you're on that madam chairman, I've had two persons er contact me as regarding, you know playing field and er it's a no go for dogs isn't it, and th and we therefore the people have mentioned they had to go down the side of the playing field onto the onto the old , and er have we an obligation to er to pave not pave it but er make it, it's a very steep bank, a very steep old ladies daren't go down, and they know they're breaking the law by taking the dog in the in the er recreation ground, and I just wondered whether we had an obligation to er . Those people with dogs in that sort of situation are very welcome to walk through the playing field and then out the other side and away, I wouldn't stop them going over from that entrance to the to the top entrance . Well and er I was just wondering we we ought to do something, I mean these poor old dears have adhered to what we have said and facilities for them to get down onto to the er the . I would accept that bank is very steep, Yes it is, it is very steep. Erm erm it's not a very . greasy you know,terrible, the poor old dears daren't go. They're they're tongue in cheek going across the recreation ground, thinking that we're going to pounce on them because they're not allowed in there. So you know, it's a for them. I would say I think that's a very good point chairman now can we ask perhaps either our groundsman or or or whatever to look at it to see if something to make it safer for these these people to er get access to . I was going to suggest something similar but erm, can we say is is it public footpath er Yes well it sort of track are contacting the people who done a very good job on the on the public footpath erm and that was actually going through our land, and they done some steps with erm you know erm wooden erm supports in them, er maybe in in conjunction with, was it ? Was it the ramblers? Er the ramblers they The ramblers did it, the Newark ramblers, they did they did the one at the bottom of Lane. Now this is the one on Road. Oh. If you could find out who who did that and Was it , and possibly give us some help but erm Can I just make one point er all the footpaths need rain so it might just be but conditions at the moment are just very bad I think generally anyway. Mm. Any more on on that subject of the erm playground, no? Shall we put in item eight now as Peter is back. back to item eight then. If you'd er allow me to go back to item seven briefly. Erm this news is until twelve noon please tomorrow. Er the appoi the governors have just made an appointment of erm to the headship of who's the current deputy head, senior deputy at ,he'll be taking up his appointment er at Easter. did you say, not Flintstone? mm. I apologize. Erm find some empty chairs. . We still haven't got a name for this er facility, been dragging on for some time. Mm. We er actually do need to decide what the name ought to be. Er we have got one suggestion here from Madeleine and that's sports park, anyone else? What about the er centenary sports ground? Well that would certainly be my favourite, we we'll be coming up to our hundredth anniversary aren't we fairly soon? Erm really this has been to a large extent I think a parish council initiative and I'm sure all the members of this council are enthusiastic supporters of grassroots democracy in the role of parish councils. a few years er beyond er our why not celebrate our own centenary? high profile I think centenary park has quite a ring to it. No centenary park not centenary sports ground then? That's a bit of a mouthful. Centenary park. Do was there any other suggestions? Cos we ought to decide tonight because it's been going on a long time . Centenary,a centenary in our parish last year wasn't it? The centenary's this this year Eighteen ninety four, the local government act. It had a stormy passage through parliament. It created parish councils. It's an ideal name. Does anyone have any suggest any more suggestions? Yes madam chairman. Er centenary seems and I know we are round this table and I was thinking of the benefactor who actually offered this er facility for for us to take it up, and er I would like to see may be er some something incorporated, there was one suggestion of a Bramley park or something of that nature wasn't there in those suggestions we had, have we still got that one, could you could you just er inform me what it really said? Erm I don't know, we didn't er did we formally If we decide on the first then we can decide whether it's a park or a sports ground or or what shall we do? Shall we shall we put them to the vote, how shall we do this? Well I I'm I think that er I'm less worried about dating it cos I think it actually quite important to date it, like the war memorial ground and actually fairly closely although it's not actually dated to the end of the war, I mean it was nineteen fifty two when it was established. But it ties it in to a date and I think in a similar way, erm centenary which is the only thing we're going to do offic I think that it could be the only thing we do to celebrate our hundred years of existence apart from a small exhibition in . Can I make one more suggestion one, to combine two of these to call it Southwell Centenary Park, would that make it any better? Well it's just another idea. There were comments last time about trying to give it a name so people realized where it was. That it was in . Or you could call it Brinkley Centenary But is it just the centenary of the parish council, that's why I thought of the Southwell bit but what do y , what about that Can I ask madam chairman, is it is it for anything else except football? I don't know. Well facilities for anything else, other than football? I think the answer is yes. Mm. But it's football initially cos they've shown an interest and I think that the pitch is there for anybody . and the summer uses . Given our advancing years John croquet. Well what, shall I read what we've got so far then? Excuse me,do won't the schoolchildren asked at one stage Yes, yes. didn't they come up with anything? Nothing. I phoned them last week and said you know have you got any suggestions, and they said they'd come back to me and they haven't. They're too busy on the national curriculum. The I mean there's not a huge choice here is there, we've got two or three words , you've got Southwell Sports Park, Centenary Park, Bramley Park, Brinkley Park, erm what do you think, shall we have a vote on it, how shall we do this? Can I propose that we vote either to go for Southwell Centenary cos I think they are the fav either or, and then we also have another vote for Bramley or Brinkley and then we have a vote between the winners of either of those two, because then that gives us a chance of voting for a for a third option. Is this is this matter madam chairman is this matter urgent or important or is it urgent and important? Well I think that it's gone on a long time and it's not It has. it's not that hard to decide a name, I think we ought to Well I think that what you're in danger of coming up with is a camel. Erm no seriously I think it really shouldn't take long, you're quite right to sort this matter out but I think three people really should go away and come back with a suggestion or a couple of suggestions. Yes. Because you're going to get into a situation where you're taking amendments to the amendment and you well with great respect I think you would be better to duck out at this stage. But we did mention this at the last meeting didn't we? Mm. Mm. And we did put forward ideas then as well. Well as I say, I think three people would make a better of it and come back with their recommendations.. Let's let's let's ask who would like to vote on it now then. Who thinks we should decide it now? Chairman, we have something on the agenda. We're going to name the sports ground, I think we should stick to the agenda. We should name it . Can I ask you a que Erm it seems silly to me to call it anything other than by the name of the place where it is. I mean it seems stupid to call it Bramley . Brinkley, everybody knows where Brinkley is. Or if they ask for Brinkley, people can be guided there. It's er sort of like calling a place in Easthorpe Westhorpe . I think the fact is that er we are in a situation where up and down the country parish councils have been er doing things and organizing events and er providing facilities to mark one hundred years of er er of parish local services and this particular project, a lot of hard work has gone into it by members of the parish council and er I think it's perfectly appropriate, and the ground was bought, it wasn't donated, er it's come of the er erm the funds that parish council receives from er residents and I think that it's perfectly appropriate that it should mark one hundred years of parish local government. We have the county council and the district councils telling us what a good job they do at the present time, spending a lot of money in doing it, we have provided this largely out of our own efforts, we've got grants from er other bodies, I think it's something that we should properly erm hallmark as an initiative of this parish council to celebrate one hundred years of parish government, and I would propose centenary field. Centenary field. the reason I stated that is there's plenty of football grounds that are known as fields. Erm a park tends to give the impression of being like a memorial park, erm equally it's not just earmarked for football, which is it could be er seen as just that, the idea was that it would provide facilities for all types of sports and interests throughout the er throughout the area, particularly er girls, I know girls play football but there's a lot of interest in er sport particularly hockey, and I personally wouldn't like to see it just dominated by football. Erm so the term field I think is perfectly acceptable to mean all things to all people. Erm a ground Well Southwell, I mean Centenary Sports Ground. Well le , shall we take a vote on the first word and then decide whether it's a park, a sports field or a a sports park or whatever? Chairman before before we do that could I just make an observation on Yes. what er Councillor said. I think er he has a a very valid point but I think whatever we call it, it doesn't include the location. The location's going to be appended. Mm. So if we call it Centenary Sports Ground, the next thing that will be added to it is Brinkley, the Centenary Sports Ground, Brinkley, which is fine. And I think erm that the issue of location is going to be resolved anyway whether we add it to the name or not. Yes quite right. I mean clubs that are arranging fixtures will be responsible for telling, they'll know where it is, and they'll be responsible for telling people who are coming there where it is. We don't need to go into address, I used to play for Caythorpe Cricket Club, half the clubs used to go to Caythorpe in Lincolnshire before they found us . If we eliminate the name of the place as being the first word, we're down to Centenary or Bramley then. You wouldn't? No. Well can somebody suggest on this thing cos I'm so confused now. Well could we have centenary title Right yes. I will hold with that. Right who who thinks that the word centenary should be in the title then? Okay. Seven. Do again? No. Well you should really. centenary being in the title . So centenary's got to be in the title then, yes? Next word, is it going to be a sports park, a field or a sports ground? Weren't you going to ask weren't you going to suggest that three people choose this? What about Centenary Field Brinkley then? Well we know it's at Brinkley don't we? But that will be added, we don't need to discuss that . Right the next word then, should it be field or a sports park? Or sports . Or sports ground. Ground, right then. Doesn't it continue erm dribbling down the field now we've got the ball rolling, could I propose sports ground? Right. And I'll second that. Now who who who's in favour of sports ground then, being the next word? right, and who's against that? So we now have Centenary Sports Ground then. but why is it necessary to, why isn't the Centenary Sports Ground and it's at Road. You know why is Brinkley so important? Brinkley is where it is . Is it Brinkley? Do we have to ? go down the road it's got Brinkley up. You've got to have a correct address David. Centenary Sports Ground on the notice board, you know that it's Brinkley. Oh yes. you've got a road sign. Thank you gentlemen. Erm Mr carry on. voted on Centenary Sports Ground Yeah. Well the Centenary Sports Ground. No, we don't need to vote on on it any more. Erm if you recall in our managements' erm in our discussions when I presented the last the last minutes of the er s the subcommittee which has purchased the ground, we agreed to erm co er co-work with two other two of the clubs sports clubs to establish a management committee, which we would then hope would take over management of the ground from the parish council. At the moment, Centenary Sports Ground is owned and managed entirely by the parish council, on the parish council rates and as you know it's been planted and it's coming up well. We need to move this into the next stage which is to get it managed for a sports field, sports ground properly. And the management committee will do that. The two clubs are I think are in the process of electing er members and have asked us to put forward two parish councillors to be their nominees. So we're looking for two additional representatives on this parish council to be our nominees on the management committee, and the management committee will present us with proposals to buy the ground in due course. Could I erm nominate erm Roger . Would you like to I I'm happy to serve as long as it isn't you know, I mean I I can't give a lot of time because er my time's so committed . Anybo anyone else who wants How about you David? No I'm s no I'm sorry I couldn't er . David I'd like to propose, but as you proposed him. I'm quite happy to do it . Perhaps Alright do we do we need to vote on that? Before you move on madam chairman may I make a suggestion general approval, presumably we will be erecting a notice board er at the ground er and I would think it would be appropriate having selected the name that we make er erm some statement on the notice board saying the facility was originally provided by Southwell Parish Council. Similar to erm the accreditation that is er up at , with the help they've had from er er interested er people there. I think that the parish council's involvement should be by by reference on the board. I think chairman within our within our original budgets erm we're still awaiting the provision of electricity and water to the site, but within the original budget and with the estimates and quotations we've had, there will be some money available for the erection of a small sign, so perhaps er I propose that we do that within the budget that we've already established for the purchase of the ground,wh which is within budget at the moment, so if there's any spare after the provision of electricity and water to the site,suggested. But I think that er this er Centenary Sports Ground gonna be large enough for the public to see and this and wants to be on a smaller metal er edition that's there for er ever and a day. Right. You see my point, it's it's not a like a M and S or railway sign one small sign you know at the bottom or wherever. Yes in an appropriate position this glorious name and just I mean I'm not, don't get me wrong, I'm not one of these formal you know want's to everything but the idea of this is that we go we get it off the ground and then the management committee take over and run it, it will hopefully have two parish representatives, won't be overcommitted by being you know constantly hectored and badgered by people saying this is your ground. Erm but I just thought that it is appropriate in the circumstances because we have basically provided this facility, that there should be erm on the part of the public that this was a facility provided by the parish council, it's not just a sports club facility as will develop over the years, which is what we intended, but it doesn't belong to those clubs,facility was originally provided by us. Is that it then? It is. Oh I'm sorry . I have one other, can I reserve one matter to the end of the meeting because I wish to make a proposal which er would be erm I think ought to be taken erm in closed session because of the nature and confidentiality of the business and personal interests, so perhaps I can propose the closure of the meeting to the press and public at the end of the meeting and defer the final item an item relating to this matter at that time. Item eleven then,. I think all they want to do is kn is the existing one needs pulling down, am I right? And then they want to build a new one where the old one is at the moment. Right. They've actually drawn a very detailed plan for it, shows us where the war memorial recreation ground Where it was. and, yes where it is, er and it says,please find enclosed plan for mower store, present wooden hut is inadequate for our requirements . Erm they're going to pay for everything, they're going to build it, they're going to submit planning application, they're gonna do everything. So all they're asking really as you're the landlords, do you have any objection to them building a new er mower store? How big is it ? How big is it chairman in relation to the existing shed? Be the same size? It'll be slightly larger. When you say slightly larger will it be more visible or, I mean the present one is partially hidden in actual fact . The measurements are eight foot by nine foot. It's on the same site and everything, to be honest I've never measured the old one. Green felt covered concrete roof, red bricks to er local authority local authority erm doesn't given any more details than that, but it's red brick to local authority approval, so they're going to submit it to them for them to agree that it fits in . I think one of the problems is they had a break in and had quite a lot of gear stolen, and that's why they want a concrete roof, so they can't er get in through the roof. I can understand that . it'll come up again at the planning meeting anyway? This is just asking us for permission for them to apply for planning permission. Right, we'll move on now to item twelve, Southwell Tennis Club, permission for floodlighting. I believe we've had a letter asking if we will contribute towards floodlighting, is that it? What they're actually asking for is that whether we would be able to help them by arranging for a loan on their behalf, they would service the debt at this time, so I might suggest chairman that we revert it to the finance committee for Yes can we put that to the finance committee. As a matter of urgency I think chairman,be because if we're going to apply, we need to apply for the first of April credit approvals now get taken up so quickly because the government doesn't let much money borrow erm much money to be borrowed parish councils unfortunately so we need to do it fairly urgently if we're going to get it on the list, I think the list is already about ten parish councils long. When is the next finance ? We were hoping to erm organize, arrange one quite soon. So this . Right, okay then. Erm, maintenance of rights of ways in Southwell, item thirteen. It's just a letter from the county council about footpaths, erm shall we This department has been running an experimental scheme called project. This project was set up by the county council and Countryside Commission to experiment with new approaches to path maintenance. Due to the pilot nature of the scheme it is only operating in a few selected areas initially, which is why your parish has not been contacted. This project has already demonstrated the positive benefits of working with both parish councils and the farming community. The work is due to finish in May nineteen ninety four and the results assessed. After this time the rights of way team have every intention of working more closely with parishes and farmers throughout the county Am I right in saying that people talk to us about this? I think it's do with us taking over the foot the footpaths isn't it? Can can you say more on that . What will basically happen is we would organize the clearance of footpaths within Southwell boundary, and so they would give us an amount of money each year and then we would er take on , we would nominate which footpaths are to be cleared, we have got far more ideas than they have in Nottingham need attention. But they were quite happy to come along and discuss it with the parish council erm and . Am I right in saying Women's Institute, don't they go round and checking up on sorry erm footpaths? And what happens about re repairing of stiles and all that sort of business? A at the moment what happens is individual people report back to the clerk, Mm. the county council's responsible for footpaths. I know they refer to don't they? ramblers Mm. I think they're erm But house er erm what is that that's the footpath people isn't it, they always come and repair things if they're told, at least they sh , but obviously they have to work in collaboration with the farmers, er concerned . controlled by the county council Mm. erm and they've got the responsibility of all the footpaths in the area. I think what they're trying to say is if it was more localized it would be easier . Yes, but they've still got to keep in touch with the farmer concerned or farmers Yes. they can't just say we're going to repair the footpath. Then it will be the parish council instead of the county council. But you've still got to liaise with the farmer or something. Yes, yes. But I would do it rather than Oh I see yes. Mm, mm. a splendid initiative and it's similar to the way in which the district council is now devolving responsibility for public toilets, and I'm delighted that local government reorganization has been given a bit of stir that districts and county councils to get their acts together. I'd actually go a bit further and say yes we'd like to do this, can we also look after road maintenance as well, because the road maintenance is sent out to contractors, contractors are so busy, they can't actually do half this work, they've got a list as long as your arm, so pit pitfalls in in the pavements as well as as some of the motorways aren't being done because the contract's been placed, but they've placed it with the wrong people. We know where the problems are, we can actually solve those problems, and I think that's where parish council actually far closer in touch with the people, because we're on the ground and there are fifteen of us in the village and one of you know that's than than the county council which is over the river in house. But I think I'd actually like to support that idea, I think we ought to er er write back to them and say it's a splendid idea, erm let's have more of it and and thank you to the local government commission for s er seeing to this after a hundred years. Don't we want write and in fact get him to come to the next meeting then yes? Madam chairman, er just as it happens er I've I've been in conversation with Mr assistant and ha and Southwell parish is a very big parish and I think I'm right is saying there are sixty seven footpaths in Southwell sorry More than that. and I don't want to, I don't want to get involved with a lot of money that we'd have to outlay for upkeep until we've gone into it thoroughly. Mm. Because at the moment, er I mean they spend a lot of money on various footpaths that I know of which are a tremendous er price so let's be a bit cautious you know, because er I don't want to be saddled with a a great bill just for footpaths. I think you we can ask him all these questions then can't we. Will you let us know please when and maybe some of the footpath people, local footpath secretary or chairman When when shall I get him to come to one our meetings. Yes perhaps you'll let let me know . Alright, now there's one item on the agenda right at the end late edition, which is the byelaw on control of dogs, which I think is something we discussed years ago but I can hardly remember what we decided but it seems that we've now got to that we did agree that we would we would we would go along with so erm ninety two Yeah the minutes of the meeting of the nineteenth of February nineteen ninety two, that's an awful long time ago erm, and it is proposed to bring into force byelaws for district and parish council-owned land upon or as soon as possible after the first of April nineteen ninety two. The byelaws as proposed would be for a dog ban at the toddlers' play area of the War Memorial Recreation Ground and for the Memorial Recreation Ground excluding the tennis courts and bowling green, the play area at gardens. It was agreed that the byelaws for dog ban at the toddlers play area be endorsed and clarification be sought for the possibility of dog ban in other areas, which is included in the document. There's there's quite a lot of information in on this proposal . Right, so what what you're asking to do is to sign it and send it back? agreeing that we should and send it back? Mm. Mm. Who's this letter from then? County council? District. Erm district. Because I mean they're being e I've lived here twenty three years, this comes up every three or four years this dog business. I mean I've written countless letters and nothing's been done. I apologize for the urgency on this, but to get it through to the Department of the Environment it has to be lodged at the beginning of February and then up to then by by March. What are they going to do about it? This this this is because the the Department of the Environment lost the paperwork for a year erm because apparently the Home Office are un incapable of reading documents unless they're in order, and they take them in order and it takes them a year to read them. And I I've got a letter from the Department of the Environment and the Home Office saying that, er and th and because of that it's taking them this long to actually get these byelaws effected. There's no apology or anything, they just that's the statement . I think Madeleine what enforceable by the district council law. that needed the consent of the is it the D O E or Yes Secretary of State. and that has been a long time coming but it now appears to be It's been twenty three years since I Could I enquire madam chairman er is the same areas on that specific document the same one as we agreed in nineteen ninety two? Mm I think so. If they are fair enough. Yes Perhaps the clerk will check. check through but I think it's exactly the same as what we agreed Thank you. Just before you close the meeting hold on No well any way before we go onto that Right. can I just ask did the chairman respond to The clerk and chairman Right, could I ask Come in. That's you finished now. I don't know if you want to mark up something in Mr . I take it he was in at eight o'clock. I saw him at eight o'clock. Aha. I wouldn't say he was in at eight o'clock. . Councillor . I'm actually concerned that if we, did anybody know about this issue earlier on because I think this has been going on for quite some time erm probably over the last two years and if anyone did know then why didn't they address it before and if anyone didn't know, why not? Certainly I I've been aware for a while now that there have been problems at Kingslane general in terms of of break ins erm not just specifically with the launderette but with also the community room er there and certainly I I've been engaged in making one or two suggestions about how security measures could be improved. Erm including discussing with officers the possibility of of fitting security erm erm er forgotten the word, shutters erm to the actual, the actual building itself. Some of the er that measure is not actually effective or not possible in the context of of the facility er I think there's been a search for measures which will be effective and er erm that's what the efforts gone in to, finding an effective way of preventing it. More than that I really just can't say. Call upon councillor getting increasingly frustrated on the subject of other things, pelican crossings and that I've been concerned to hear since I've I've been requested this question and er it was briefly reported in the Cambridge evening news last night that they they've had almost continuous telephone calls today complaining erm which shows the public as I thought of my own experience er are very concerned about this and would like to erm first of all bring it to the council's attention and do regard as serious and ask the chair if there is a proper investigation will be made into the way the council handles this subject. Erm ironically after I wrote erm the letter was typed on Monday erm to Mr Mr the only lights that have been fixed since are the ones at the end of my street and the next street not as I complained about ones on the main road erm there's an example that's been going on for many months where a problem,an acknowledged problem of access existed which was the reason for delay but that as I understand it has been overcome some time ago now and it's still there, this is a group of seven lights together, the lot, erm these lights are still out, they're not in my ward in fact, they're just . Er, I understand there was problem because of the computer breakdown which caused a certain record to be lost but then I discover that there is no copy of man manual copy of orders sent to the contractors for repairs kept so that having lost the computer record the council do not know what lights have been reported to contractor for repair and then find out the basic clients number seventeen Mr Mayor er Councillor is making speech To the chair reasons for my concern here and reason for my asking her whether she will now agree to a full investigation of this service at to be conducted by councillors and for the council to be satisfied that the service can be put right. Just in the nick Are you satisfied? All the members here will know that I have recently erm sent out a circular letter expressing my concern as to where the system doesn't seem to be working properly and asking for your help and cooperation in giving me information on just exactly where it is falling down. Er, I I I thought it extremely discourteous of Councillor instead of responding to my letter he goes to the press and starts complaining, this doesn't seem to me the way to sort out the problem at all and I am equally aware of the problem er and if it only helps me get some facts together then it it will strengthen my arm getting things sorted out. There are some problems that have erm had come to light recently. Apparently erm the compute software which controls the issues of orders to crac er contractor has a fault er last been erm spotted and so that it can be sorted out and er there's going to be some reorganisation of the way in which erm erm faults are handled in the department. I'm hoping that this might lead to an improvement but I still please ask you all to keep me in touch with where things are going wrong so that they can be put right. Thank you councillor Mr Mayor point of councillor letter came to me after I'd already written which she will be aware long period. But erm I I don't, still don't see from this how we're going to look at the underlying systems because it's the system that concerns me. We don't have, we don't have a way of identifying reports and getting them fixed. I mean the w the pelican crossing case started with, when I was a councillor before nineteen eighty eight an and it's a difficult one to detect but if you haven't occasionally come back late at night and there's no traffic that you can spot it because no vehicle d detect vehicles when there aren't any. But that that, I've been reporting that fault regularly, five years ago it's still there today. Something is breaking down in our maintenance system and it is at the clients side . got fifteen seconds left to put your supplementary question. Councillor to councillor . Councillor do you think that you as the chairman of the citizens' charter defunct working party of the citizens' charter where it was generally agreed that whenever possible letters should be replied to, or at least acknowledged, within five to ten working days. Could you please give some indication as to when you're likely to respond to the letter sent to you on the twelve of the first nineteen ninety three? About the su the pr your reported proposal for a supermarket on the M eleven roundabout and also you see the commitment as confined to the officers only. yes okay replied to various of your constituents and have conducted a robust discussion on this matter with councillor Jane and recorded in the the Cambridge evening news, I'm sorry I haven't replied, right. That's pretty . do you see it as a commitment for councillors as opposed to necessary just for officers. Thank you chair. I hope councillor hasn't been puzzling about this question because I think she should have had adequate warning erm the cycling part of working party was agreed by city board on the ninth of on the seventh of December is to come to an end and such work has er relates to cycling within a new transport working party. Can she please tell us when this demise will take place and when the new transport working party will be convened. Will she agree that in fact no rationale was offered for the end of the cycling working er party other than the desire to reduce committees? Does she agree that in fact this action is incomprehensible to the other participating agencies of the cycling working party? The county council Cambridge and district council, could Friends of the Earth. This committee working party with a small budget has nonetheless through sharing funding with these other agencies has had it prum pump priming achievement of er creating a very successful project throughout the city over a number of years. Does she agree that this non-controversial form has a er essential role to continue er in Cambridge and that erm the the issues of safety, environment and the promotion of low cost schemes is something that must be preserved? Yes I know you'll have to with me. Erm yes the cycle work working party has been very successful i er experiment and it has been much appreciated not only by people in the city but by the the other parties that have taken part in it. Er,we looked at it as you know when we were considering reorganisation of committees and I think this is perhaps one of the few things to come out of all that. It has only been met twice this year, the budget is quite small for the amount of work we can continue to do is quite small er it's quite possible that it would only need to meet once a year in future so it would be sensible to combine it with other non-policy and traffic matters as a working party. This doesn't mean to say that that we can't invite other people to a special once a year meeting of this transportation working party to deal with cycle issues. I think what we will do, erm certainly a lot of concern was expressed at the last meeting that this er forum should should die er but I don't think it will I think it is very simple, to set aside one meeting a year, devote it to cycles and invite the same people who have coming from the party . does she agree that there's something bizarre in er I certainly agree successful experiment it bringing to an end because it's a successful experiment, er clearly the policy is only to continue with unsuccessful experiments. Er,yes I agree the funding that we provide at the moment, seventeen thousand I think, er i in in we've already committed erm for for wh for the coming year, is small but it is because of the example, because er people who wish to m er erm promote cycling schemes and cycling policies within South Cambridgeshire, within the county council can identify the example that we have been setting that hypothecated budget aimed at cycling have been er directed this way and have been spent amicably, constructively, sensibly by cycling working parties. Then this will not happen as we know, a transport working group is going to be er a controversial area where it will cease to be the operation that we have had in the past from the county . It is coming to an end in May, it is not coming to an end in practice. We can now go to the second choice question. First of all councillor is lucky enough to get two bites at his cherry. Well I must say Mr Mayor I was gratefully assured by the answer that councillor gave earlier on about the er strenuous efforts the council is making to improve the security at the Kingsway cash point as I now gather it's called. Erm, I'm slightly more concerned though about security in this building and in some of our other main buildings and it brought it home very starkly to me and I'm sure to all members of the board when we arrived at our meeting a few weeks ago and spent er over two hours standing, we didn't stay out, more or less standing out in the street and . And it did bring it home to me that we have got a major security problem in this building and in our other municipal buildings and quite frankly the ease with which anybody can come into this building at virtually any time of the day or evening astounds me. When I go to other er council buildings er throughout the area they've all got these little er digital locks and people have got cards to get in and out with. Now I understand er that you know we are providing public service here and we have got allow for public access but the cost of the council of having all its officers outside of this building for over er two hours must have been absolutely horrendous and I would have thought this would be an area where improving security ought to be a high priority so what are you going to do about it? Councillor . Thank thank you Mr Mayor. I'm pleased to be able to answer my very first oral question. Hooray. I mean, as councillor is aware in trying to move around this building there have been some changes in use of digital locks on some of the doors. I think it fair to say you can't actually list, you can't actually put preventative measures on hoax bomb scares. Somebody rings up and says there's a bomb that doesn't matter how much security you've got, you've obviously got to clear the building. Having said that I mean I think there there has been obviously some concern about some security measures, other than terrorist or so called terrorist threats in relation to staff personal security in the building which is why we've actually moved towards more one stop per section area so there are limits to where the public are actually free to move around the building. I would hope over the next few years we actually do move towards increasing towards that but I think we will have some severe difficulties, particularly with the planning department where large numbers of members of the public do visit the area. But in the view of the action, the event that took place with the bomb scare there are s there are some reviews of security measures being undertaken. I cannot say any more than that. I appreciate Mr Mayor that you can't stop bomb scares. Er but I say it, I was just using that as an example of how it brought it home to me how easy it is to get in. The other evening when we had our group meetings you can just walk in that side door, you can go virtually anywhere in this building unchallenged because we can't have security guards all over the place. There is no reason whatsoever why those doors should be left open after five o'clock. There ought to be a system er to allow limited access at least outside of normal hours, yes they're called keys . And I'm disappointed that councillor is talking about a matter of years before we get something done about this. We want something done about it in a matter of weeks and months and not years. In fact to relation to one stop shops I was talking about years, in relation to the new security I was not. Erm, I think it fair to say that if you'd asked more or less to the next meeting and probably sub-committee would be quite, quite acceptable and I would thank you for drawing it to our to our attention. It's quite quite a reasonable request. I trust you will be happy. Councillor Thank you Mr Mayor. We've still got time have we? We've only three minutes left. Right. So you . Very, very quickly then Mr Mayor. Earlier this year, or was it last year, I received this marvellous booklet. It consists of odd pages with some figures on and a load of pie charts. My my estimate says that each copy of this cost in excess of two pounds fifty. I have no idea how many were produced but I would ask you Mr Mayor whether you feel that this expenditure was money well spent? Yes coun councillor I can advise you that in fact it did cost considerably in excess of two pounds fifty, it cost four pounds and sixty one pence each. As you will see they they. They are the colour of the leader of the council's shirt and as such as such I would have said cheap at half the price . And I, indeed I'm not exactly high gloss, they are not exactly high tech, what they do do is they A substantial amount of information which is necessary and which indeed was asked for by members of your I believe at a previous oral question time erm as to the number that were printed you may be shocked to know that one hundred copies were made which means that the total cost of this, I think you will agree, very worthwhile public information, was four hundred and sixty one pounds and twenty one pence. You, I don't think Mr Mayor, you you answered my question. Do you think it was money well spent? Oh yes, yes I did answer your question, it is. It is information which is vital to any councillor who is trying to go through the analysis of cost centre by cost centre of the expenditures of this council and as such it's vital that this information is available to us not only by combing through all the relevant minutes and in er minutes of committees that have taken place but paraded together in one place for us all and members of the public to be able to get access to it. It is as councillor said one of the costs of democracy, as such money very well spent. Now we turn to the notices of motion. Before we do before we do given that it's just coming up to ten thirty could I ask somebody to propose suspension of standing orders . Mr Mayor, we don't suspend standing orders, we book them. Ah. That simple, thank you very much. Would somebody please propose in accordance with standing orders that we should extend our proceedings beyond ten thirty. Yes. Thank you. Can I see those in favour of so doing yes, thank you and those against Call upon councillor to move the motion on public sector homes. Thank you Mr Mayor. We bring this motion for the council tonight as committed as anybody in this chamber to social housing. In fact it's because of that very commitment Mr Mayor that we are so keen to see it used properly and effectively. Social housing should be just that. It should be housing designed to meet a social need, directed towards those with no other means, no other option of getting a roof over their head. It should not, Mr Mayor, definitely not be used simply as an easy option for those who could manage quite happily to provide for themselves, either renting or buying in the private sector but instead choose to let the state provide. It is ludicrous that the council should subsidise with public money, my money, your money, someone's housing provision simp if they are quite able to stand on their own two feet. It is particularly true if by so subsidising you are depriving a would be tenant who is cru in possibly far greater need of that self same provision. Our concern then Mr Mayor is to see social housing used correctly, for those in greatest need and this leads us to the conclusion that means testing is the best way to ensure, is positive discrimination in favour of people in such need. If I might turn briefly to see how such a scheme might possibly work. I would recommend that officers might visit South council, where the scheme in fact works extremely well. Amongst, points they might like to consider, are the fact that the scheme is very simple to operate and extremely cheap. What happens for a simple is that on first application you bring your financial details to the interview references are taken up naturally in confidence and you are then allocated a place or not if you meet financial criteria. The procedure is carried out once again when you reach the top of the list. If you don't provide the information you are simply not allowed on the housing list. If I might secondly Mr Mayor address some of the concerns that have been expressed and no doubt, will doubt be expressed later on. This is a good time to start this scheme because in a recession it's even more important that those in the greatest need get the most help. Means testing Mr Mayor, is undoubtedly equitable. Nobody in any sector, public or private, should offer benefits unless for a good reason. The public should no more offer a subsidy of this kind using public money without checking if the recipient actually requires it or anybody else besides, means testing is nothing new, there are plenty of other benefits that are already means tested right across the board. In the press on Tuesday Mr Mayor, this motion was described as a shameful indictment of Conservative meanness and a re re a return to Victorian era. Yep. If it's mean Mr Mayor to put those in greatest need first, I'm happy to plead guilty. If it is mean to be prudent how public money is spent, guilty again and finally if it is mean not to subside those who can quite stand on their own two feet I'm quite happy to send myself down. I will continue Mr Mayor that it is not meanness it is practical caring Conservative policy to ensure that this happens. He said that with a straight face It is Mr Mayor it is Mr Mayor the Labour group who should lead the Victorian era and entertain the of the twentieth century. It is Labour who rather than retreat into their dogma kennel, at the mere mention of the phrase means testing should wake up, adapt, adjust and welcome change . In conclusion Mr Mayor I repeat social housing to be effective, should be for those in greatest need, not an easy option. This motion sets out to address that issue and I hope it will gain all party support. I beg to move. I reserve my right. Standing order seven I move that the motion in financial implications and those in favour of dealing with it tonight please show. Councillor . Thank you very much Mr Mayor. Is the tape recorder still on because I have a word that is describes this motion, I won't use it but it rhymes with rowlocks. It's interesting this isn't it, we've moved away somewhat from the old Tory philosophy of erm freedom of choice. We're not going to have people are not going to have the choice about whether they buy a house or rent privately or wish to be on the council housing list, we're going to force them off. What this is Mr Mayor an attempt by the Conservatives to create ghettos, to create ghettos for the unemployed and the low paid and the forthcoming victims of your leader's welfare schemes I think is the likely likelihood of this. What he's talking about and this is the same erm same councillor who was talking about living harmoniously side by side those that have are are buying them, those that are renting them but what he's actually saying is well I'm actually very, very sorry but if you haven't a job, if you haven't an income or you're income is so low, just go over there and stay away from us decent chaps with lots of cash. We don't want to live with you. We don't want you getting on the council housing list, clogging it up because you've got a job and a bit of money, we want council houses to create ghettos, we don't want people in an in employment, people with money to have council houses. You're just talking about as I've said, ghetto creation. What I wish erm Mr Mayor, because councillor tries this erm Tory party, central office philosophy time after time after time. I wish they would actually give him a w an award, and councillor the same award for services to Tory party policy above and beyond the call of duty. This needs throwing out Mr Mayor, it's rubbish. Councillor . I I I thank you Mr Mayor, erm well what a load of co Coleman balls, er This motion really addresses a problem that doesn't exist, it's a fictional sort of problem. Something like seventy five percent or sixty six or seventy five percent of the, of the units which we actually let, of the houses that we actually let, go to homeless families you know, it is a complete fiction to suggest, or even try and suggest as this does that somehow or other houses are being allocated willy-nilly to people who have massive resources who could go out and buy or rent in the private sector. The private rented sector as you should be well aware, is in fact declining quite rapidly in this country and no measure that the government has so far taken has managed to rev reverse that trend. The real issue over time I actually think is affordability of housing which relates directly, not to some sort of magic dogma of any sort but relates to the supply of housing, the supply of housing both in the public and in the private sector and it is the supply side of housing where this government has fallen down. I mean, I've got figures here produced by Shelter, probably some sort of pinko left Labour party front like the L G I O or somebody like that. Turn to the public sector in say, in nineteen eighty nine only twenty two thousand units were actually , twenty two thousand units actually completed. You don't actually address the problems of lack of sup this lack of supply by limiting access to what exists. The real question is increasing the supply and that is something that your government has no interest in. You have presided over an absolute, the increase in homelessness which is quite stupendous. The number of people that I hear saying things such as I don't remember stepping over people in the street five years ago and it's true, in this city I don't actually remember doing that, not with the frequency with which it happens today and your government and your party has no record to shout about, absolutely none. Now we have tried to be a pragmatic and innovative authority. We've managed to avoid the use of overtime we have tried our best to ensure a decent supply of social housing but always against the odds, always against the tide of what is going on in our economy and in the housing situa in the housing market. Council housing public sector housing, equity share housing, indeed even private sector build if encouraged, would lead to a ra a range of housing that is affordable for different people at different points in their life. We are interested in the notion of affordability, not in the notion of means testing and we recognise crucially that the public sector provides an opportunity for people. This is something which I don't think registers with the Conservatives. It provides an opportunity to get out of the private rented sector. I personally and I'm sure it goes for many here, have spent a long time in the private rented sector and if the opportunity existed to get into council housing we would have taken it. Because you are very often dealing with the situation where you are personally very insecure. You have, six months time you could be out of the accommodation that you're in. You're afraid to ask you landlord for a repair because if you do, are you setting yourself up for a rent increase? Alright. You're afraid to ask perhaps for I mean I've lived in a house with a landlord, the landlord turned the heating down, turned the water heating off on occasions because we were using too much hot water between about four or five of us. Decent, affordable public sector housing provides opportunities for wide ranges of people in our country and your government does nothing to promote the right to rent, the ability to get into decent housing where people otherwise would have no such chance. Because they'll never be able to afford even equity share accommodation and it'll be difficult to afford anything more than that. I find it shameful that you try to promote the measure which doesn't even begin to address the basic problem of housing . Councillor . Thank you Mr Mayor. This motion especially from the that says to instruct the officers to investigate a simple method of means testing. There is no simple method of means testing. Means testing does involve officials digging very deeply into people's you have people spend your monies. Obviously the proposer and seconder of this motion do not remember what this scheme meant to people in the forties when it was demeaning and degrading and a great intrusion into their private lives and I do feel Mr Mayor that as it was a a it was demeaning and degrading in the forties it will be no less demeaning and degrading in the nineties. Hear, hear. Councillor Joy Thank you Mr Mayor. Erm,amendment that need to be made to this words housing waiting list, we in fact no longer have a standard housing waiting list but have a housing needs register erm that says a great deal about the system that we have is that it's judged on people's housing need and not on their income. Erm, I hope that will be changed. Er, another thing that we need to consider is that sixty percent at least, of our tenants are on benefits and that hardly speaks of people income in any way trying to to get round the system. I think this could be very discriminatory. We're also going to consider that Cambridge does have very high housing costs in terms of mortgages and that in the city, whereas it may be reasonable in other areas for people to be able to have the opportunity to buy. But the cost of housing in the city means that it is beyond them, particularly if they're on their own, young, single people. You need far more capital to get you going in a place like Cambridge that you perhaps do in Peterborough where some houses can still be bought for around thirty thousand and that needs to be borne in mind. I also wonder how the system copes with changes to people's incomes, er many people particularly in recession we heard that unemployment in Cambridge is now approaching ten percent and if you've been turned down by the council, your council housing on your means test are you really going to go back to them at a time when you may be under a lot of stress with unemployment to have your circumstances reinvestigated, I very much doubt whether people do go back. We know from the housing benefit system that there is a backlog of cases, I think hundred and a , quite a considerable number of people of where people are having problems producing wage receipts and evidence of income now and one dreads to think of the burden that will be putting on the letting section by erm inventing yet another system o of this kind erm I think people we know that people are wary already of applying for benefits because of means testing and I think that there's that it would simply discourage people who really are in need from coming forward. I think the fact that housing need register, not a waiting list and I therefore ask you to reject er this motion tonight. Councillor Thank you Mr Mayor. There er there used to be a time when it was fairly easy to predict what Tory motions would say. They they tended to say the same thing as the government, erm but recently Tory motions, in this council, have started to say the opposite of the government f for reasons which remain obscure to me and this is just another example. Now this motion does not seem to understand government housing policy so let me explain government housing policy, I don't agree with all of it but this, this is the policy bit. Government housing policy as we found tonight when we voted on the rates is to bring public sector rents into line with private sector rents. Then, the government says, there'll be a level private and public sector and it won't matter that we sh someone we we which sector people go for. In order to deal with the problem of means, the government says, we provide housing benefits and the subsidy, this is the government speaking, the subsidy goes into the demand, it goes into benefit there'll be no subsidy left if the government has its way on the supply side. No I think this this policy is misguided just from on practical grounds, because er experience shows that demand side owner subsidies do not increase the supply housing erm which . In theory they do but in practice they never have. Nevertheless, going back to the way the system works in practice, you still have housing benefit. What housing benefit does, because its available for public sector tenants and for private sector tenants. Is it in effect equalises in terms of means, the people applying for housing so there is no need for a means test for potential tenants because they all have in housing terms, the same means, I I do you understand this, I mean it's vitally important you understand this just to see why this motion is nonsensical. There is no difference in needs for potential tenants. They have the same means and that's what housing benefit is meant to do. That is why selection for housing is based on housing need not on financial need, that's the point, that's why you do it according to housing need, not for money because the money side has been neutralised. I hope that's clear enough for it moves the motion to withdraw the motion. Councillor . Thank you Mr Mayor. I think that many of the points I wanted to bring forward and some that I didn't know about. Are erm erm have been made I'd like to simply to say I think two things. One, one of the most common question of the last weeks are we yes last weeks Sunday visiting that I was involved with in my ward was from people who were perturbed, not about means testing because that is not the word that it was about, but about something that is on the same kind of sphere and that was about whether erm East Gates which decided to be their own managers would also be able to to their own tenants and keep the ones that were less suitable away from the ones that knew that they were suitable. Now why's that relevant? It's relevant because at a time when I lived through the means test the one that, the real one, er then that would have been a very serious point because you could switch and turn and twist the means test in such a way that people would be continually at a disadvantage and the nearest I can think of what the effect of that was, living in a very working town, a very industrial working town and it was nothing like as bad as the one in London more recently, was the homelessness of cardboard boxes cities in London. Now I know there was no means test there but there were other things there causing that. If you want really to get that in every town and city and country, have a means test. Councillor Mr Mayor I think we, we owe a debt of gratitude to councillor this evening because the sort of motions he's been putting forward has effectively united the progressive forces. And made one I think realise yet again why one is in politics and what it is that we you know, on progressive winger politics actually stand for. I'd like to put one simple note and I think it'll have to be simple for him to understand it but I would like to put one simple notion to him and that is that there is great merit in having public services sharing by people from all social classes. For example with education, it'll be a terrible thing for education if the middle classes continue to contract out in the way that they are so we have a divorced system of independent education quite separate from the state system. When that happens then the, some of the most effective voices on behalf of the state system will be silent, they'll have no interest in preserving the best features of the state education system. The same is true of the health service, the more the private health educa the pri private health welfare comes in, the less chance there is of people who are, who are articulate and people who count in British society start speaking up with the rest of us and saying come on we we've got a common interest and a common stake in this service and we want the best po for for everybody and the same will start happening in housing if you get your way. You really must withdraw this motion. Erm, councillor There I was, talking to people asleep this morning and I woke to the dulcet tones of talking on the radio. I must say to those of you who tend we had nice interview subject I sometimes wonder if sometimes the Tory politicians are like Jehovah's Witnesses really, they sort of set out into battle and say go out and convert these people, we're gonna slam the door on them. And I think there is this kind of elements, this kind of testing battle, go and defend ye indefensible. Give rise to the, we rise to the bait. I mean there are some Conservatives who do actually believe in the social welfare of the but there are also, I'm I'm sure there are large numbers who actually know what vicious streak there is behind a lot of the other measures of social control that have gone on in this country since consensus was in nineteen seventy nine er you actually realise what what a tragedy it is in this area. I actually I I intend to believe you actually have been sent by the Jehovah's Witness to defend the indefensible, it's a kind of like a and I I y'know, I'm I'm sorry but I don't really think this actually deserves that. Councillor Thank, thank you Mr Mayor I I'll be very brief because I think that there have been a number of very good points made from all all sides of the chamber tonight and I think really er councillor er touched on the thing that that worried me so much about the creation of ghettos. If we're to take this motion seriously erm the tories are suggesting that council housing should be restricted to those in mo most in need. Now on the face of that that that that's seems fairly sensible, y'know if somebody is in need we ought to be doing something about it. But what happens to those families when they've been housed and they gradually improve their position, do we send our officers down and say ah, you've got some money in the bank now, you're not in need, get out of this council house we're gonna give it to somebody else. This is what they're really trying to do, this is the sinister path behind the Tory policy. Is actually to terrify the p poor and to drive them in into a s an under and this is part of their philosophy that they've been following since nineteen seventy nine under Mrs Thatcher. And this is just a continuation of that that prejudice against those that appear to be living off the state and not justifying their existence and I think it doesn't deserve the time that we've spent on it tonight. Thank you councillor , councillor . Thank you Mr Mayor. Earlier this evening at the Tory twins were recommending to read the city council funding handbook, I would also like to recommend that they also learn something about Tory housing policy. For one final nail in the Conservative coffin . about means testing in general, the problem with means test is that they are a rather disguised and very crude form of taxation. They penalise people who are earning money, the penalise people for saving money. Now what is the point of saving money if you're in a job and you're worried about being made redundant when, if you become redundant you are ineligible for housing benefit because you've been saving money. Means test create poverty traps. They mean they make it, in many situations, make it pointless of people to try and found jobs. Of course that's so hard, they don't make it pointless for people to find jobs that they don't declare their income, so that means test would encourage the black economy. Now as we saw at the last council meeting, where a very right and proper and honest and law abiding council and we don't want to create a situation in which people are encouraged to break the law. To conclude I think that we should go along rather than hope sort of an aspect of Conservative philosophy which is that people should be encouraged to earn money and they should be encouraged to save money and that therefore in this case this means proposing this Conservative motion, though I hope they will actually have the common sense to withdraw it. Erm councillor Well I I actually must have read completely different to anybody else from what I've been hearing, erm the way I looked at it, the situation that we have locally compared with what David was saying about the national erm what government are doing nationally and the situation we have here in Cambridge city. I'd like the people of Cambridge city to know that we do care about the people that are in dire situations financially and that we realise we we have got a problem in housing in the city and that maybe we should be saying no matter what 's going on nationally, that locally we want to pinpoint our social housing towards those people that we feel are financially less off and in more unfortunate situations erm get ghetto creation has been mentioned and I I wouldn't consider council houses to be ghetto. That, and we've had this in the past, where I would say that people that live in Yarbury North and South probably do earn less and live in houses that probably are, don't have as big gardens and things like that, so the natu the nature of the is that they probably do earn less money erm but I I don't consider those to be ghettos at all. And so I I they're not agree with you so this surely isn't a situation that has arisen or will arise. We've got a problem now,w we have to try and s split that between our problems here in the city and what will happen in the future and what the government will intend to do about the problem. The problem we've got at the moment is that we have a lack of housing if you like, and we should surely put, pinpoint those houses for those people most in need. I wouldn't like to try and say you you're not good enough, go away and live somewhere else, I think that's . You might not but I bet he would Terrible thing to suggest and anybody who thinks that I think has got the wrong idea of this motion. I think this motion is addressing the problem of Cambridge city and that the people that we feel we should be erm affiliating in so much as they need the housing. Let's try and at this moment in time, we're talking about now not the future. Let's try and aim it in their direction. I think that we should support this motion on my understanding of it. Councillor I I'm speaking on it. I I think I think that's you're just in the wrong, I think because you're sentiments are all elsewhere but what is actually being proposed is every bit as vicious as what each of the members of both the other groups have said. That is the effect of it. I only want to tackle two things. One, one thing because it's crucial in in what was originally proposed in this motion and it's the lie that public sector housing, local authority housing is subsidised in preference to private sector housing. If you read any report that comes out from the government, any report that comes out from Shelter you will find that in fact private sector housing, your house, my house, our houses are subsidised twice as much by this government than so called public . interest tax relief, it's M I D A S right, so let's not start talking about the benefit of public sector housing and to show the financial illiteracy of of of what's actually been proposed if you understand the government regulation about the ring fencing o of of of the housing revenue account and and the way in which housing benefit is now having to be subsidised by those other council house tenants then what's actually going to happen when your poor people inhabit those houses, those public sector houses and they need the housing benefit that David's been talking about. Because it's going to raise your government P A, P R because there is absolutely nobody left in in local authority housing who's able to pay it because they'll all be on housing benefit. So financial effect of what we're saying is completely incompetent. Hear, hear Councillor debt. Thank you very much I think er councillor said that in er Tory erm motions goes against er Conservative er national policy but what it does identify is a very worrying sub text to the Tory policies of the moment because w means testing for hou for housing welfare has gone back to the worst aspects of the nineteen thirties politics basically. Th this company must be in a bloody sight worse a mess than we thought and the government are not letting us know this is what they're look for are scapegoats and they they're . Councillor I'd just like to say that only Conservatives could actually put need in one paragraph and slip straight into financial in the next and I assume they're talking about the same thing. Yeah. Well I can't remember having so many councillors have all spoken at one evening. as the chair. It goes seconded then back to the chair again. Councillor . I will because Mr Mayor I think that councillor started off his response to this by talking about ghettos and a lot of differences between the better off and the worst off and I, the feeling I got from his speech was that what he was actually driving at was he was attempting to perpetuate the class distinction that the Labour party have been so bound up with over the years. Right, erm ghettos ha have been mentioned by er a number of people. The, what we are proposing will by no means, create ghettos or or anything else within the housing stock any more than today's policies are doing anyway. The other aspect Mr Mayor that I, that I want t to dwell on is the thing about housing benefits themselves, there's been a lot of talk by a lot of speakers about benefits and er means testing in the years gone by and well okay I'll give councillor a few more years than I have, I don't remember the forties because I was born towards the end of them but, y'know, maybe that happened. But there are still today a large number of means tested benefits. Erm, income support, housing benefit,family credits, maternity expenses, cold weather payment, there's a whole host of means tested benefits which most people here will probably believe are reasonable to be means tested. You, that you can't have an income support policy if you don't means test because everybody will have some in that case and th there there is there is another point that erm that er that certain erm highly strung members of the liberal party have er mentioned. And that is that councillors referred councillors referred to the fact that means testing would generate a poverty trap. It isn't means testing generates the poverty trap, it is the benefits that generates the poverty trap. So so I I I think Mr Mayor that although this debate has erm raised people's erm eye a little, I do believe that most of the people here have got the wrong end of the stick in what was being proposed right. We are proposing that those that have. Those that have substantial incomes should not be in a position to take up houses that might otherwise be allocated to those on a lower income and Mr Mayor i as a result of this I feel that that I would urge this council, although I suspect I shall be unsuccessful, in supporting this motion . At least he got one thing right Thank you Mr Mayor. I must say one thing. One of the great advantages of the advent of councillor and councillor to this council is in fact because of the motions which, I have to say even nine times out of ten I don't agree with a word of, or even ninety nine times out of a hundred I don't agree with a word of what have we been talking about this last three quarters of an hour, housing, yeah. What we have done is raised housing, what this sort of debate does is raise housing high on our agenda and that's a good thing, don't let us forget that. Everybody's taken part in this debate tonight and I for one am extremely pleased about that. Housing is vitally important to us all. It's one of the most basic needs we all have is to have a roof over our heads. Having said that I'll try and speak to this. Most of the points I think have been well, accurately made and I don't want to stand here making them perhaps less well wrapped and less well, less eloquently. I think that er the point was brought out very recently, I can't remember even by whom, of the fact that in the first paragraph it says the most needy in our society and further on it says for those in most financial need. Financial need is not the same thing as housing need. What we are in the business of doing is providing people with houses who are in housing need. Financial status can change overnight, we all know that. So what happens if you have, just supposing you went down to a crazy way o of means testing. Today I haven't got a job, I get a house tomorrow I have a job. My financial status has changed overnight, what happens? That's the sp the ridiculousness of this particular thing. What doesn't change so fast is housing need. If your living with your in-laws and you're having a baby and you want a house or if you have a baby and then you have another baby and you're still living with your in-laws housing need hasn't changed it just grows. We have on our a a a as councillor er er erm was saying must earlier on her piece, sixty six to seventy five percent of people housed are homeless anyway and will be housed because of that situation. People on our needs register are not swimming in cash, they're not people who think I shall have a cushy number here, I'll go and get myself housed by the local authority. Everybody, unless they've been had their head in the ground for the last thirteen years, know damn well that they're not going to get housed off the needs register particularly quickly and they only go to people who are most unable to be housed by any other means are going to bother even to put their names on the needs register. We already have a very sophisticated way of assessing housing need. Housing need and we do it and people come to the top of that register and get housed because of dire housing need, nothing to do with financial status. In any event, I think I put this to you financial status, okay, so you've got a job and you've got er er a reasonable income, what financial status straightforward thing that financial status doesn't say what your outgoings are. You might be divorced and have all of family to keep. You might have ageing parents who you support and god knows how much other outgoings which are hidden and then you have to go down that road and say that you're going to look at at financial status you're going to have to say and exactly what are all of your outgoings in and now down going to get real unpleasant intrusion into people's business. Horrible and I'm I lived quite happily for long enough to remember certainly means testing and my parents. Who would have shu sh shuddered at the very thought that we are even considering such a time in this day and age . I think erm most of the points as I've said before, have probably been made and I don't want to make them any more but I would just make one other when we're talking about means tested it's interesting that you're advocating means testing in that way. I think somebody mentioned mortgage interest tax relief, that isn't means tested as far as I am aware.. Means test the right to buy . Erm, I would say to you er please vote this motion down, thanks very much. Councillor you have the right to reply. Thank you Mr Mayor. There's been an awful lot of discussion about this particular motion and I shan't attempt cos we haven't got till three o'clock in the morning I don't think, to answer all the points. I will just perhaps tackle one or two of them I think. Firstly the price about, the the points sorry, councillor made about getting housing. That's complete and absolute nonsense. The whole point of this thing is that, as I said in my speech, about trickle transfer is that people should mix as much as possible. If we were in fact to promote trickle transfer that would happen a great deal more than it does currently. Secondly councillor I take your point, sixty percent or so of people are on are erm sixty six p , I deferred your great knowledge . There are still people who are waiting on on the list for seven years plus for a house. You also said that the government sh should should do more supply housing. This year you have the option of using a right to buy receipts to build more housing and yet you are turning it down. If there was ever a more golden opportunity to do that, and you are spurning it, I've never seen it, I never see it through a golden opportunity for that. Councillor it'll be discriminately certainly, I've no doubt about that, it'll be positively discriminatory for those in greatest need, I have no problem with that. Most importantly perhaps it is quite clearly a nonsense to suggest that this scheme could be introduced retrospectively for council tenants. That i that is completely infeasible for all for all sorts of reasons it would be grossly unfair on council tenants to throw them out of their house. Nobody's suggesting we do that, that would be a ludicrous situation. Finally Mr Mayor I might just take issue with councillor . It is an extraordinary assumption that only people with money are articulate councillor , perhaps we should introduce an articulatecy test as a way of getting a council house. If you're so keen to see people who are as you, as you say articulate and and a go, in council houses it does seem an extraordinary argument to say that that those people are automatically not in need, it seems very bizarre argument. I appreciate obviously tonight we have are not not gonna carried today but nonetheless it is something that we believe in very firmly and I hope we have the opportunity to try and persuade you otherwise at some other time. Thank you. Those in favour of the motion please show. Those against. Thirty nine against, thank you very much. Sixteen councillors, I take it that you . Unfortunately council leaders have to leave. Erm, I apologise first of all Mr Mayor er for the second meeting in a row dealing with traffic matters affecting High to full council. Erm, I hope that I won't detain the council for too long, I'm sure that this motion er won't be controversial. The closure of causeway Mr Mayor, is scheduled to be implemented with the completion of southern relief road erm if after a public enquiry, that road is actually approved. In this motion I have actually requesting that the closure be brought forward in order to relieve what is a dangerous traffic situation at the corner of causeway and . The problem simply Mr Mayor is that during the morning peak period traffic enters the city via causeway, going erm I think erm this traffic that's coming over the is joined by local traffic from roads leading off causeway and the result of that is that er on many occasions er we get a long tailback of traffic er waiting to turn right at the junction of causeway and road. Turn right into er what is a very busy er road in any event at that time but that the dangers is that many drivers are becoming impatient with waiting their turn in the queue and what they're doing is driving down on the wrong side of the road in order to utilise a little back road that's a service road which runs alongside road and leads into Nightingale avenue. Residents in the service road not surprisingly are complaining that excessive speeds are used er by these vehicles using this rat run and this is causing a danger to children going to the local school at that time of the day. These particular residents, the ones that live in the service road, are campaigning for the service road to be closed but not surprisingly the residents who live aren't keen on that er road closure because that would affect their use that route at other times other than the morning peak. What has happened because this problem has been recognised is that the police are having to go down there on a regular basis and actually stop people doing this stupid manoeuvre. Er, because obviously they are putting motorists coming in the opposite direction er in er great danger and I feel that before too long we're gonna have a head on collision er which is going to end up with serious injuries. The traffic engineers are well aware of this problem and I and er other Tory councillors have been er in contact with our officers and the trans traffic engineers at the and the engineers er insist that the only answer is to narrow causeway by physically putting in er road narrowing measures. Er, this will obviously stop people driving on the wrong side of the road but it certainly won't or it won't prevent the excessive use of this service road which is very narrow indeed. The simple fact of the matter Mr Mayor is that vehicles coming in have got a very er simple alternative route and when they come down the hill they can turn left, go by the golf course knows very well, go round the roundabout and go round the roundabout and come in, alright they've got to join a queue there but they're in a queue anyway. This would be much safer than the dangerous right hand turn and the dangerous manoeuvre of overtaking vehicles on the wrong side of the road. Because there is this impasse between what the officers wanted to do and what the residents find acceptable the only way I can get this matter resolved is for the council to refer the possible closure to the committee so that the committee can consider all the facts er in the light of the advice of the officers erm and I therefore beg to move this. I would like to say I'm deeply grateful to councillor Elaine who wrote a wonderful letter to the director of transportation which has formed the basis of my speech. She sums it up well. I'll second that . Under standing order seven nine O . Thank you councillor I rule that the motion has no material financial implications. Those in favour of dealing with it tonight please show councillor . Earlier this evening Graham I thought you erm made a complaint about the number of reports that are coming to committee er but it's not for that reason that I wanted to dispose of this motion now erm but there are other reasons. I do sympathise with the problem that that the local residents have there but I I dare say closing off the road wouldn't be a very good idea but it is something that only the county council can do and the county council have said that they will not do this in advance of the southern relief road being built so I think that really is simply . Er, I did say. Er you said you've had a erm contact with, discussions with the officers over this and certainly I've spoken to them a an they this is the case. But they tell me that they have put forward two possible solutions. One which would be closing off the slip road to Hills Road, oh he mentioned it did he? And the other one er the alternative would be to narrow the section of causeway. erm but these things could be done without going to committees, without any problem whatsoever if we just have this experiment to see how it works. Er, I gather that the last letter that had from you dated the twenty fourth of November in which you say that you will get back as quite soon to decide whether you want to apply for one of these erm erm ways of dealing with the problem or not. Erm, I also suspect that one solution is erm not very satisfactory to one group of people and the other solution is not very satisfactory to another group of people and of course er since we are coming up to an election don't want to offend either group of people. To get the local residents to decide which of these measures er me m measures they would like to try erm an and try it out, since the other way forward is just a non-starter. Erm perhaps councillor would wish to put a question under response time . Councillor . Thank you chair. Cou councillor has said most of things gonna say. I do have some sympathy for cou councillor I do know this area and I I do know the traffic problems there and and we do really in the long term need to do something about it. My problem is that as everybody knows, that the southern relief road is going to public inquiry. This authority is taking a somewhat different view to that public inquiry than the erm the highways authority er after shire hill er erm so I I think if we were to take a decision tonight it could affect our position at the public inquiry adversely er and I would not want us to get into that situation so I think to some extent er councillor timing on this motions is wrong and we shouldn't be be er discussing it now. That is not to say that I haven't got sympathy for the problem that he's faced with. Councillor . Thank you Mr Mayor. er I think councillor has made the case for the motion which he has put before us which is simply for a report to the environment committee which would deal with the the tactical if that's the right that's just been raised by councillor . There's clearly a problem, any ward councillor who brings out t that sort of thing which is non non-trivial to this council er for the reasons he has it seems to me deserves er to be supported unless there's a very strong case against it and I don't worth considering and that's what I shall vote.worth co you don't. Hear, hear. You know I I would seriously like to confer with councillor , he makes a very important point. I think if ward councillors bring a map of have no whatsoever. They it is brought forward on safety factors and I think that is a matter that should be considered by committee whatever political persuasion er I do use this road er regularly Mr Mayor, er I live there, I an indeed one of the people, if you like, er inconvenienced. But my colleague has brought it forward on a matter of safety. It is true,causeway because of the situation that exists we do have people driving on the wrong side of the road. They drive on the wrong side of the road for some considerable distance which actually amazes me, I'm sitting there lawfully in the queue and someone comes whizzing by on the right er without any sight of the traffic coming the other way, er interestingly we did have the police er have had the police up there monitoring the situation. There was two of them w wi with a Range Rover the other morning er with all sorts of notices and the following morning they had a motorcyclist er hidden behind the hedge as it were er that seemed to obviously put things right for a couple of days. I said good morning to them of course. Erm but I would say it does indicate the er seriousness of it. Apparently it has er this substantial police presence and so on. So to get back to the serious matter Mr Mayor if I may. My my colleague promoting this on safety grounds er is absolutely right er I I really do feel the southern relief road issue where indeed works causeway will be closed in the proposals er is one thing. whether the southern relief road goes ahead or it doesn't er is is really not er pertinent with the moment. If it goes ahead it solves the problems but let's suppose it doesn't go ahead. Erm, then obviously we've still go to address this problem. If it does go ahead the proposals to close it will be somewhat late so why don't we look at them now. So the southern relief road isn't really pertinent to the to the argument . There is a local problem of some substance, the police have been there, it is a matter because of circumstances people driving on the wrong side of the road, it's certainly dangerous conditions er and I think it's reasonable to to er take up councillor the this is the practical problem the committee could look at tonight. Thank you erm councillor . Well I'm sorry I'm still I still think we should throw it out because, simply because I don't think you're putting forward, I don't think that the motion er proposes the right solution to the problem. I would suggest er I wha , I have three suggestions or two suggestions to make. You could I I er it seems to me that body that you should go to with this is the joint sub. Because the county has to make a decision on the road closure so therefore it should go to rather than. Or else you can try one of the, one of the solutions that has already been suggested by the officers. Councillor . I think perhaps the council will now see why I'm getting so frustrated and it's because we've been talking about this for over twelve months. I can't agree a solution with our officers that is acceptable to the residents I represent and I put it to this council to try and get something done about it and all I get from the chairman of the committee is the officer's comments pushed back down my throat. I do think er councillor , that you have got a duty to listen to all sides of the argument and not just repeat willy nilly what the officers tell you. That is not the way that we should be running this council. All we're asking for, as I think perhaps the council will knock it down anyway in all the letters they've written you don't. get to councillor it is it is the procedures of the council that you are perfectly entitled to go to the committee itself and place this on the agenda for the committee. In that respect it seems to me that it is not something that is necessary to come through the full procedure of the council in order for you to do and I I thought that would would deal er establish . Erm I I hope that is at least of some help erm in dealing with a resolution to this problem. Could we see those in favour of the motion,and those against. Eighteen against. I think we'll . Have it again please, those in favour of the motion, Nineteen Nineteen. And those against. Are you voting. Hang on and I'll tell you. Nineteen . On the mayor's, on the mayor's casting vote I vote this in favour of the motion. I call upon councillor to bring this motion. Thank you Mr Mayor. Erm we we are I will be er as brief as I possibly can be on this one. Erm, clearly we are in a room full of people who have a more than marginal interest in the political process erm and that goes for your boundaries of Cambridge city councils er remit and clearly contains also to parliamentary methods erm I'm trying not to be desperately partisan about this, I don't expect anybody erm but a phrase has been used earlier this evening from another quarter about if it's not broke don't fix it, erm the boundary commission have looked at the boundaries of the Cambridge city constituency have found that it is up to ninety nine percent of the right and proper er number of electors. It has changed relatively . People have just about got used to the new structure and it seems to me that it would behove us all to leave well alone. I'm feel that it is the remit of this council, or indeed other district councils to talk about the whole of the county of Cambridgeshire, particularly when they start mucking around with issues well outside their own geographical area. I can see that perhaps if they want to have a er they may feel they need to stray into other boundaries but I did feel that when I read what Huntingdon district council proposed which was if you like, to completely re-drawing the electoral map for the entire county I wasn't actually looking at something that was designed to deal with the interests of the citizens of Huntingdon district council, I was looking at the straightforward political proposal which would be far better to come from a political party than from a district council. What I'm arguing for tonight is that given that we've relatively recent boundary change, the people have just about got used to it, so by and large er it doesn't seem to have huge numbers of demerits as far as the city is concerned and that we are now very, very close, as close as is possible to the norm for the average constituency size that we actually endorse the boundary commissions proposals and leave well alone and the second part of the motion merely says to a neighbouring authority, y'know, please in some senses be punctilious about not to suddenly decide to poke your noses into something way beyond your it's not just a couple of parishes on the south boundary, a couple of parishes from from the north of their but actually way to our area but what candidly I can only see as a rather partisan er er long summer break. I just want you to remember the video, someone you don't know is a? Stranger. Right. You don't take sweets you to don't don't take drinks, presents money or Don't take anything. That's right, don't take anything. You don't get in someone's car cos someone you don't know is a? Stranger. What can one say? They know it already Miss. You've been here lots of times too haven't you. You told us before. I know I have, yes I know I have. been here loads of times. And we've watched, and we've watched the video before. Shh shh shh. And we've watched the video before, yes, and we keep learning and we keep coming to tell you don't we? Because it keeps happening, boys and girls in their summer holiday keep get getting taken away by people they don't know and nasty things done to them. So all we want you to do is remember the video remember Pippin yeah? And play safely till you come back to school next term. Play safe and never go with strangers. Strangers. Like James did. never. Like that James did, yes that little boy of three, James did didn't he? Two. Two or three whatever, I've just been Two corrected. Alright. Two. Who's James? Thank you Miss. Thank you. Will you do one thing before you go though class? Will you promise me when you go home tonight you be the teachers and your mum and dad be the children and you tell them all about Stranger Danger and you tell them you're never gonna go with strangers and see what your mum and dad says to you. Yeah, will you do that for me? Yeah. Well done. They don't live with me. Oh I always tell him that. Good man. Thank you very much indeed, thanks for your time. See you later class. My head was going like this on the . He said I'll come up he said if it's more than thirty pound Ange, he said you can give me some money next week. Don't worry about it, get what you want and I'll fill this for you. Thirty pound? What do you mean why he charging you to do it? Yeah I said cos I couldn't ask him to do for nothing. Yeah well what are you giving him? No I'm giving him a tenner. I said I'll give you a tenner to build it all for me. Drill it and do everything. Come with me, get the wood, measure it the lot. And he said that's alright. So how much you reckon that's gonna be, cost then? He said what, if you're getting them he got a worktop six erm sixty inches. That must be two foot he must mean. And for his kitchen the thick stuff. That's what you want he said the thick stuff. You don't want that thin little stuff like that. He said and that cost me he looked round, twenty two pound. Well I said Angie said she went up Wicks' and got her worktops and it cost her fifteen pound. And he said well Wicks' are cheaper he said we'll go to Wicks' then and I'll measure up for it when I come over. What, have I gotta take him up? Yeah because Jenny might, she might be on a late. If she's on a late. But she's on a early she can come with him and we'll go in her car. Put the roof-rack on her car. But if not if, if I go up with them and I'd go in with them. Just wait in the car. I'll go in with them and see what I gotta get and just strap it on the roof. And he'll come home and do it he said. What colour are you do , well you gotta , haven't you? Yeah. as well. So that's what he said, it might be a bit more than twenty pound. So he said, I said well what if I get the stuff right? Erm I said if there's any money left over I'll give you the money, I said and give you the rest the week after or if there's none left I'll give you the tenner week Oh that's alright don't worry about that, he said, that's fine. I said alright. Well I want it done properly see and I said you gotta drill and all that. You gotta buy my Christmas present yet mind. Eh? You gotta buy my Christmas present yet. Oh yeah I'll sort that out. Is he better yet then? No. Well then. You could sort me out this week with all that money you've got. I'm getting me kitchen done. And then I'll get Christmas presents. Cos the walls ain't gonna be done I'll get back and get a tub next week and I gotta tenner left over look to get you something for and get your hat. You'll have to come with me Chris. Because they do it in sizes. Mm. See? See how much it is. What colour are you having the worktop? Well I thought cos I like that marble flooring. If they haven't got any green worktops cos Ange said when she went up there You'd best price that as well. What? Your flooring. Yeah. They didn't have any worktops, the green Ange said. She can't remember any but there again you were she weren't looking for green. But they've got that marble. You know what we had? Over Jan's, pity we didn't nick that weren't it? They got that sort of marble stuff. The same as the floor so I might pick the green marble. To go with the floor. I don't know yet. Well I really want light green. If they've got it. If they haven't got it well He said if, I can always cut it down to size and that. At least it's being done. Mm. Being done and that's one job So you out of the way. So you've gone over that wall again? No. I'm doing it tomorrow cos I want to leave it a little bit Let it dry. Try and make sure it's dried and then I'll do it tomorrow morning when I've been to that playgroup. You come up with me to pick him up tomorrow ? No I ain't going out tomorrow. You won't be here at all? No I ain't gonna, I gotta go and have a look round a few second hand shops and that. Oh you're taping. Oh! Oh I got two plugged in at home . That's it. You just, I just leaves it on the side. I taped Chris last night like that. You Yeah cos you gotta London accent. They want your accent. It's your London accent. What are you trying to do? Hello I put in me bag when I go up the school and I had the little microphone hanging out. We're chatting away and I thought oh you've got to come back and write down who said what. Not who said what but erm Mm. You know. Yeah. Stop. I want a cup of tea. You just drank all my milk! Yeah I can't tapes Ange. I need to leave it just hanging there. How many you got? Twenty. But they say you must leave it running for two days. Two days' conversation Yeah. and that's it. I mean I ain't doing it for a whole week. I'm only gonna do it for two days. Too much innit? You want a drink do you? Mm. Yeah it's only two days. That ain't too bad is it? I haven't filled one side up yet. I chatting on there. I was chatting all about me units Ange Ah. gonna make them . Didn't have none up er Attic's then? No. Well Chris went. He come home with . Three quid Ange. Has it? Yeah you don't Get off the bin! Alright. Yeah, you don't use surnames cos no-one knows who, who anybody is. No. Do you know what I mean? That's right. It don't go broadcasting anywhere it's it's a research team. Yeah. It's good there innit? And they just pick out certain words that people use and they want different people's, different, you talk different. Like you know Oh yeah that's right. Hang on. Ooh. Hang on. Get Sue on there. Yeah, yeah. It's quite funny actually when you listen to it. Yeah, I know. Bad enough when Pete you could tape Pete snoring. I already done that. Snoring! This is a new language from . Yeah. Shut up. No, you. Ooh a big Yeah I know. Terrible. he's built it see Ange. Yeah. Leave it to cool. He built it and he put those, instead of drawers he put those wire racks in? Yeah, they're better. Put those in Yeah. That's better. So I want it like I want a Yeah. That'll be nice. So I can take them doors off look, and put green ones on. Yeah course you can. Er say fifty quid, sixty if that. Well the worktop ain't gonna cost that much. It's gonna be the sides and the shelves. I reckon just for this it'll cost you about eighteen quid. That's all. That's all it cost me. Yeah for the top. But then I got the drawers in haven't I? In there and shelves cupboard Yeah. Yeah but it's only a piece of erm board innit? Mm. Wood to put on the back. Won't be too bad will it? Mm I'm not sanding that down properly. I'm just doing a quick shwooo. Yeah. That'll be okay. That one. Oh yeah it's started cracking. That was last night that went Yeah. Then we gotta put a real stiff coat on there and make it really ripply. I mean this bit I like. I likes this This is nice Yeah that's come up really nice that. That's alright I want it like that. Yeah. And up there but I gotta do that again. Yeah. Oh Doreen what she did on her door Mm? is erm you can buy the strip for the door erm Strip? What do you mean? You can buy strips for your door. Instead of er sanding them all down and all the paint and that, you can put them on the top. Like a wood effect? Yeah. Oh I know you get great big sheets can't you? And that's what she done yeah. And that's what she done to hers and it looks really nice. Really dark wood effect. So that's how they do it then? Cos I've seen them. They're really fine aren't they? Yeah. You know it looks like balsa wood. Thin. Similar to this but very thin. And it's Thin and you just stick it on with a glue. Yeah that's it. On either side of the door. Yeah that's it. Oh I might do that. I'm doing that I upstairs. anyway Ange Yeah. That's okay. I ain't worried about the floor. You've gotta learn some songs. Have you? You've gotta learn some songs. What did you learn today? Erm When Santa got stuck up the whatsit. Chimney. Erm erm erm well I ain't saying it. Give me my card. Give me erm my erm thing. Yeah he got this thing over here. I erm made a Christmas one. Mum's gonna get it for you. There you are. When Santa got stuck up the chimney. He's gotta read that have he? He's gotta sing it. Oh dear. And there's when the robot comes to dinner. This is the one when the robot come to dinner they came on Christmas day. They didn't like the turkey so they threw it all away. They ate up all the knives and forks and then they asked for more. They'd never had a Christmas day quite like that before. That's good innit? leave it there, like that can you fix it. Is it on? Yeah. Oh right. Yeah you just talk normal, like you would normally as if you was having a cup of tea. Well you have got, you've got a cup of tea. Yes. Like we're having a cup of tea. That's it and that's it. You ought to have seen Ange on it. She went she knew it was there and then she forgot about it and she was chatting . Yeah, you'll be on there. Here I better listen to that to see if they were talking about me. No there isn't nothing like that. some juicy gossip? No, it's only me and Ange chatting about my kitchen. And me and Chris talking about money for the kitchen. And that's it. Mum, mum are we going what? So you've done all your Christmas shopping have you? Yeah. What colour's the We should have put it on in there. Yeah. We've been gossiping like anything. Mum! Mummy! People are funny though. You say I've got a tape recorder here. Oh well turn it off. Turn off yeah. Yes Ben? I'm not your mummy, but what? I'm going to go to the beach tomorrow Sunday. He's going on about the beach! He's going to the beach, tomorrow Sunday? No. No. Yeah. What's this, six foot What's Father Christmas bringing you Ben? Erm a bobblin A what? Bobblin Bobblin A bobblin? Oh Adam likes those. Yeah? you having a bobblin? Oh Ben . You stupid thing. Where's my drink, where's my drink? Where's your drink? In the cup. Where's my, where's my drink? It's in the cup. ? Erm so what eleven by eleven foot. Eleven by eleven and a half foot I want. It's per foot then so you'd have to what do you want? Eleven eleven by eleven and a half foot. How much is that? Well you want to nip over there and see what they come on on the roll. hang on. No. That one but in the brown. I don't know. Is that it there. No Yeah. When you see at the carpet place, they come on a nine foot Here you are there it is. That's beige though innit?it's the colour innit? So it's off erm six foot six inch, what is yours eleven foot? Mm. I'd have to go to that one wouldn't I? Yeah you'd have to have the Thirteen foot. Thirteen foot. How much would that work out? how much that is look. Oh my god. You alright Ben? Oh my god Is he alright? The chair's alright is it Zoe? Oh yeah your chair's alright. You leaning back on the chair weren't you? Weren't you? Was you? You alright? I hurt my leg. Your leg? Which leg? Which leg? Oh this one. Let's see. Oh give it a good rub. Never mind. Don't lean back on the chairs. I told you about that before. . You just sit down nicely. No No Oh my god. Now, now just sit down! No swinging! Thirteen . How many, you want it that way, you want eleven. Mm. So it's eleven times that. like that's that one, that's that foot, that's that foot. So you want it all the way round So it's that per foot. So it'll be eleven times that. Oh my god. So that'll be over a hundred and forty pound innit? Yeah. Easy. Easy. No I'll have to go to Great Mills then. Unless there's any others. Which one's that? No I think this is the cheap one. Dear though innit? Well it is a dear game. That's like us look. There . Unless unless you had together. If you had that Mm. and you had a down the middle. Mm. Yeah, what's that? Well this? Yeah. That's two you'd have to have more of that. Oh. Yeah Yeah It would still probably work out the same though. Yeah Not much difference. Yeah. Did he make those numbers? Sit down! Yeah he makes those, Zoe. And he makes that as well. Yeah they're good aren't they? Sit down Ben. I thought well they're nice. school Zoe? Mm? Well, no I, I told her I needed something to encourage him. Get out of that drawer you! Oi! Has he coloured them in? No! Yeah he's got paintbrushes, I know. They done magic painting the other night . Our gets it everywhere and she was alright. And she was alright? Mm. Mm, so er still got the fire on Zoe? In there, yeah. thought I'd better come round and have a chat . We gotta go now. No we haven't gotta go. He's having his drink. funny the other week. Was you getting funny cos I ain't come to a party every week? No, cos I thought well Ian ain't very well look. No I can't afford it though see Ange. I said to Ange Zoe, Zoe I ain't Ange. Zoe but no I said to Ange, and she said to me are you going? And what did she say? And I said well I can't really afford it Ange and er she said oh she said Zoe won't get funny with us then, I said no. No. I did seventy five pound anyway. Did you? Yeah. How much do you get back on that? Well Steve's mum had fifty pounds worth off of Steve' aunty look, so erm I did about hundred and twenty five and I had twenty five pound back. I had that one as well up there up there look. Yeah that's nice. And I gotta pay some myself. I still got collect some more money in. I ain't having another one. Aren't you? No. can't have another one. It's too much hassle. I had it here two days Mm. too long. twenty percent haven't you? Well yeah and you don't get nothing out case somebody come look or I can't put all me washing round like you know? Yeah. And I was so tired by the end of the week. It it it it does get you like that don't it? It does get you like that I reckon when you've got something like that. Cos you're chatting all the time aren't you? Yeah. Yeah you are. come. Do you reckon they'll come? . Got a . She got a little boy. Yeah. She come. And I thought she might have come today cos she said she'd bring up the money but she hasn't, not yet. I like that fish tank those fishes are nice, they're big aren't they? Yeah they're a bit looks a bit slow don't they? Probably wants cleaning out but the pump's They rising to the top a lot Zoe? Yeah. You need, is the air pump on? No. It ought to be put on cos it, if they rise to the top Oxygen dunnit? Yeah they want the oxygen. Yeah but that drives me mad. Right, put it in the bin then. And they keep they keep popping to have air? Mm? Do they keep popping up to have air? Air? Yeah. Well they don't seem to be too bad but they're ever so still. They're not swimming around, yeah they're staying at the top as well aren't they? Yeah. Yeah. They're not ill are they? No well they've, I've had them three days look. So really it's just a matter of Is one diseased? No, don't think so. I've read up on me fish. So I know all about fish, at the minute. he's a shebumkin look, that one. But they just look half dead look, don't they? No, they might be just I don't know . No . They sleep . What did I do with that ashtray? I mean the hamster died in that corner so . Oh did he? He died then did he Zoe? Yeah he died. Yeah we had him about we had him a year look cos I bought him just before Christmas last year when our Adam started school. Yeah. Seemed like animal farm up here at one time, didn't it? Yeah. hamster fish cat dog. No. fins or anything ? No. But they say when their fins are down, like now then they're Mm. And if they hide a lot. Yeah. If one of them bull , being bullied they wanna hide. They hide a lot. Mm we have got some more weed upstairs, some more of that plastic weed that I could put in. Yeah that would, that If you brought proper weed Weed, yeah. just floated it on the top, not down the bottom. Yeah but that the pump look cos they don't, don't need so much weed look that, we don't put it on. Though I shall have to keep it on in the summer to keep er The water clean. the water clean else it erm Do you clean yours out a lot? Cos you've got a little one haven't you? Yeah. if it starts getting milky then I change it but at the moment there's only one little fish see? Yeah. Oops alright. Here you are. Louise! You hold that What'd she say? A piddle? Doesn't get that from me. Is that Steve's shirt is it? Yeah I hate ironing them shirts. Your kitchen looks nice though Zoe. I like the grill. Yeah? I gotta get some more Mine's like, it's a bit it's a bit like this but not as thick. It's Polyripple innit? Mm. It's not as thick as that. It is width, like that Yeah. But it ain't as thick. But it's better than mine that is. Mine's like that but very not so much. And I want it like yours but like you said I'd have to buy erm Artex and get Chris to do it. Once it's on you can't get it off mind. Yeah I know. Gotta sand it off. The Polyripple peels off though Zoe. It goes like rubber. Does it? Yeah cos I had a I did one roll alright. And erm it was like crooked and I got my nail behind there like that right? And I went like that get it off. and it peels like rubber. Peels off like rubber. You can get it off Mm . Perhaps it's sort of on there yeah. Yeah. You gotta paint it like. But it was, it was cheaper to by the artex like that cos it's only three pound a bag look, three fifty a bag for a bag of it. Do you know how much I paid? How much? I paid for a tub of polyripple already with the stuff in it Yeah. I paid twelve pounds. Yeah but there's stuff you put on before you gotta paint a certain square amount of area Mm. and I can keep it on the wall innit? A bonding Yeah. Unibond? Yeah. Something like that. Is it? And then erm Roll it out after. You gotta roll it out af , and you've gotta leave it on so long like overnight, and it stinks. And then you've gotta well area, this bit here Mm. we had to plaster it underneath because erm he had to, we just had wires like this down the end? Yeah. They weren't, they weren't in the wall? Yeah. So Steve had to chisel all the wall out. Mhm. Set them in the wall. I expect, you gotta ? Mm. Yeah? But I've gotta though. I can't erm there's one lot that just one lot like that Yeah Steve uses a paintbrush . Find an old paintbrush. Mm. I've got a paintbrush. Yeah? Cos I've been doing round the edges Now my sister just just had her bathroom just had her bath bathroom artexed? Mm. And do you know what she done it with? Her finger. Her finger. And it looks lush What like bumps, like bumps? All she done is S's. Oh S's. Little S's all, all over, it like that? Yeah. And it looks lovely. Really nice. And I gotta do my bathroom as well. But only down to the tiles so mine'd only be half way. And it's in a Rome pink it is, like a sort of a nice pink. It looks really nice it do. And she got her bath in the middle of the bathroom. So you buy a packet of Artex? You don't buy it in tubs? No. It's a great big bag. Mind this took about well it's innit Cos mine's only half way cos the tiles are up to here look Yeah. and then it's the bath. So it'd only be say from there to the roof round. Yeah. So I could do that couldn't I? Artex that Unibond then Yeah first. How much is that? And you've gotta have a bucket to mix it in. I've got a bucket. How much is that for Unibond? I don't know. About a fiver I expect, the Unibond. And you gotta mix it up it's like mi mixing a cake. Is it? You gotta have the right consistency and the right colour and Mm. So you'd probably be better off with that stuff. Cos it might be different texture then look if you've already started. I'm not gonna do it in the kitchen. Oh. I gotta finish the kitchen off with the Polyripple. The Polyripple. But the bathroom bathroom it's only like from the tile to the ceiling. It's only about Yeah like bit in there. Yeah. It's only half way round look. Cos you gotta have windows out haven't you? Eh? You gotta have your windows out haven't you? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Benny won't Benny wouldn't He's not Benny. Won't he? Why not? Don't he wanna play? No he Ah. Doesn't wanna play ? Is that the trousers ? No. No these ones I got up BeWise two ninety nine. No I like those they suit you those do. See I can't wear anything like that they're all too bloody long on me. Yeah they'd be too big round the waist. Yeah. Cos you're so tiny aren't you? I'm on a eating diet, you won't believe it Zoe. What what see food and eat it? Yeah. Chris up till Christmas cos I've gotta put some weight on. You have? Yeah cos I went in that shop and I put on a size ten skirt and it was hanging. Ooh. You'll have to give it a And then it me a pair of trousers . Give me a pair of, brought me a pair of trousers. They fitted but they still looked a bit baggy. And I said to her well I'll have to go on a eating binge. She said yes go on stuff your face. So, yeah so what I have erm I don't really need to stuff my face cos I eat one meal a day see Yeah. and that's it. I don't pick. No I do see. That's why I'm so fat. So and I, so then I, I thought right. I'll do what I did last time. I'll eat breakfast dinner and tea and supper. And I'll bump the weight on then. Yeah. Guess what I had yesterday, I stuffed, I had breakfast. Dinnertime I had pizza, tomatoes Oh my god. tinned tomatoes, chip, egg two slices of bread and an apple afterwards and teatime I had chicken, roast chicken, roast spuds, gravy and then I had supper and we bought these cakes. I ate three cakes erm and then I had another one at two o'clock. Erm cups of tea. Oh my god. Yeah I stuffed me face. Half the trouble with me is that I'm so busy Zoe I can't be bothered. I'll wind it back a bit, you can listen. Oh no you can't have my chair. That's my chair said the big bear. Come here. Can you get up? Come here. No. Come on mister heavy man. heavy man. Yeah. No, no. Yeah. Mister man. Yeah mister man. Do you want orange Ben? Yeah. There. Yeah mister man mister man Here you are. Oh Ange! Take it back. bought these. Where do you buy them? Up Asda? Wednesday! That shouldn't go like that. They're all gone get some more. Yeah. It gets dunnit? He does. Yeah, naughty daddy innit? Ooh get the yukky ones. don't I? So you took your work back then Ange? Did you get some more back? No not yet they erm he was gonna bring some yesterday but the er the guy who does it is out. Oh yeah. And somebody, this other boy had to do his own work. You know his proper job Yeah and cut any rubbers. They might have some today. Yes. So they're waiting to cut the rubbers so at least I had, some of them haven't had, had any Ange so Yeah. I'm lucky to have had five. Yeah, yeah. What babe? I've got something to show you. Oh it's a big wheel is it? Yeah. Ooh you gonna open it up and eat it. How much do you want . When she said that Ange, how much do you want cut! That's it. I thought what's she on about. You don't want it cut. Yeah I do. I want this off. Yeah I know. Yeah cos last time you left it. It's too heavy. Yeah. Too heavy on top. She can cut that quite short on top so it's more fuller. I think that's what it was I left it too long. Yeah it's not bad is it? No. What babe? And and the big bear said who's been sleeping in my bed. Zoe wants I gotta tell her Yeah she wants I know more, I know more. And and the big bear said who been sleeping in my bed. That's right. Very good. Thank you my love. said what's that? I said that's just, nothing. Oh it's only a tape recorder. Oh that thing again! Yeah that's right Ben. Had any hampers Ange? wondering what Christmas . wishing you had a little extra money. Spending all your money on food instead of presents!about changing the way you . Take a look through this leaflet and you'll see how . All you have to do is ta ra earn top commission. One pound in every four pound. That's right. Choose your super free gift. Win fifty thousand cash in our free prize draw or win the holiday of a lifetime . That's right. All this while helping your family and friends enjoy themselves this year . Why are they why are they so happy? Don't no. This must be it then. Yeah. I'll probably be doing hampers next year. I won't be able to go anywhere . I tell you what, they're not cheap Ange. Enjoy the best Christmas with Family Hampers . Mine came yesterday. Oh what do you win then? What do you get? Well you get the money. Or you get the What's your free gift. Free gift? Oh you pick one out of twelve. Mine was erm Where? a barrel of erm Where is it Ange? Yeah but it's crafty Ange. I got it yesterday right. And when I read it on there for a free gift I thought ooh if I do it myself I'll get a free gift. You don't. You gotta recommend a friend. To get a free gift? Yeah. Then you recommend another friend Yeah. and you get one if you run it. Crafty you see. I'm not doing it, it's too dear anyway Ange if you look at it. Not every week, couple of quid every week it's not so bad. Mm. You know it's cheap. But the thing is looking at the actual price of the er thing that you're having of the hamper. It's a lot of money. Here you are. Bumper lager pack. Join the party with cans galore for only two pound a week Yeah that's right, you can. That's alright. Well it's hundred and odd pounds. Yeah well it's good for the year though innit? Oh yeah. All your Christmas beer, lager, wine various lagers . Frozen foods, sweets, all sorts. Mum mum mum What yeah? I didn't have my erm birthday yet bobblin Goblin. Well Uncle Richard's gonna think about buying you a goblin alright? A bobblin, sorry. He's gonna have a look in the shop he said. We'll see, if if Uncle Richard don't get you one we'll see what mummy and daddy can do. Oh that one's nice Ange. Let's have a look. Oh that's lovely. It smells though. It smells like a woman's. Yeah and you smell that one. It's like a Mm. Oh I like that one. I like this one. Mm. Smells like It's like a flower I wouldn't mind that one. It's nice. like this one What darling? Ooh that smells lovely. Very nice. Beat inflation. All our hampers full of quality goods price fixed today. Fifty p a week. You can make your Christmas easier for yourself and extra special for your friends. You can choose as much as, or little as you like and can be sure of a superb service . So you pay fifty p a week Ange? Yeah you can. So you, well you can recommend me if you want to get your your thing. Once you've recommended someone do they only send me, I don't have to order it do I? No. Yeah you do. I do? Yeah, you have to start it. Recommend Zoe then cos Zoe wants to do it. Yeah but she's already got her own catalogue to do it with. She won't, she Yeah but it's only Littlewood's or something it is. Yeah well you only She ain't had it through yet. It's only in the back of the book. She ain't even done it yet. She told me she wants to do it. Recommend Zoe . No no I won't recommend her she You want me to ring her? No it's okay. If she wants to run it she can if she wants. Yeah but I'm not bothering though. Have it off her. Too much bloody hassle. You gotta keep going to the bank every bloody week. Oh what to pay it in? Yeah. Oh. Well I tell you who did that, Rich. Mm. It's good And at the end of the year he Yeah you have. You can get a free And then he did another one where at work he paid in a pound a week or two pound and at the end of the year, they kept the money like in the bank. Yeah they do. Put . At the end of the year they give him the cash. Yeah. And it was, so he had his food and his Christmas money. For presents out of his pocket do that see? We ought to do one where we Yeah just say right we'll put a pound a week in and at the end of the year That's it and say and then split it you know Like say if you put one fifty in a week Yeah Give it to someone. That's what they did. Someone at work said right I'm gonna start up a thing. Yeah. Pay one fifty a week, at the end of the year we put it all in a jar write your name down. That's right. Yeah Take one fifty. Put it in a jar and at the end of the year we'll give you the money. All of it. Yeah. It's better innit? It is better. It's like a you want really where you put some people put . Like they do at , they do a Ooh my toe. But you want people who's gonna pay every week. You don't want people you're gonna have to keep Yeah that's what I mean Ange. Well if they don't pay it's no worry No. cos they only get what they paid. You write it down, and what they paid each week. If they miss a week and they haven't paid it Yeah. just put not paid and keep going till the end of the year. Yeah. Although we, you agree to pay we have not received the amount shown . Fifty nine pound, what!ooh And yet they've got the nerve to bloody ask you if you wanna do hampers. What a cheek. And yet they send you letters No that's the water bill. water bill. Where's me bag? That's bill what's bill? Does your socks come up alright Ange? Socks? Does you get them white? Yeah. Oh I ain't. I have to buy Yeah they always come up white, bloody bleach on mine. Bloody No Ben Bleach. I got it. Bleach. That's old socks. Yeah. That's old ones. But mine I have to use bleach in it. Oh I don't. I've only got an old one Yeah they all come out clean Yeah. Angie. I use that Persil. No not Persil. No erm Bold. Yeah I bought that er Surf I use now. That lasts longer. Yeah, I've used that. Perhaps you ought to get automatic? I had automatic, I didn't get on with it. It didn't seem very good Ange. Didn't it? No. Yeah I'm on I'll have to use I've got Surf and I've got bleach and that'll do them. Bleach is bloody good. Cos it's the lid. Now what shall I have done to my hair? What Oh I'm just having it cut. Are you? Yeah. Well that perm didn't take long did it? It was only thirty minutes weren't it? And it was out. And it was about There's something wrong with that and this they even give you the papers as well. Yeah. It's a good perm this one. Yeah it is. Well you can tell can't you Ange? one I had before. Yeah. Gosh that money you spent out Ange twice. And still you had a mistake. Didn't you? Mm. Yeah. I know. I was gonna have a breeze Breeze cut ? Permanent breeze. Yeah. But erm Bit dodgy innit? it's just the way of rolling it Yeah. that's all, but then I'd have to keep blow drying and it every day. I can't be bothered to do that. No, it's too much. I'd like her to wind it tighter this time. Yeah. And cut quite a bit off the top Yeah. so it's shorter. Cos it'll hold it better. That's right. Yeah it will. Yeah ten minutes neutraliser Yeah and erm Yuk yuk What babe? Don't want these black-currant sweeties. Why babe? Don't like them? Cos they're all they're all all all erm all all got all got all What? What ? All things on them. What things? What things babe? Things What things? What things? Things! Got things in them. I dunno You don't like the taste? You don't like the taste babe? Are they horrible? Alright. I, I'll tell you what I think I've got in here. Actually I get some . Frutella! You like those orange ones. Orange. Oh look at your top! What? Looks like you've spat it all over your top did you? Mhm. He don't like them. No. Don't like them babe? No. You stand up on there cos mum wants to sit down. Cos you're, you're bigger than me. Yeah, you're taller. You're bigger than mummy. You can see. Oh that's better I had a bad back. I tell you what these are good for your back Ange. Makes you sit up . Wish my chairs . I like a big settee I do. Yeah I do. Nice . Comfy mind. Yeah. They're not coming to you this week Ange? Like they said? No it'll be next week. Three weeks, it'll be next week should be. Some time. They'd better. Got one week left for them to come after that. . I'm going up the fair on er Saturday. Well I won't be going unless Chris gives me some money. Yeah, it's only a couple of quid. or something? Mm. Father Christmas is fifty p. You need your hair cut again. Have I? That's sticking up, look Mm. I can't wash it. It's when they lie. Yeah. That's what I put it on. Mrs didn't go up there yesterday Ange. Oh. She's getting on my nerves. I said to Jay did you do any work yesterday? He said no. I said what do you mean no? He said no, we didn't do nothing Lee said that. Lee said that. Yeah. Alright Ben. That's what Lee said. They didn't do anything. And I said why's that then. She said I don't know. She said don't, don't play nothing. I suppose cos it's coming to Christmas they don't bother. Yeah but it's a few weeks yet though. Last week Lee said he didn't do nothing. Oh. They haven't done no decorations have they? No. No. Jason took a box in today cos they've gotta do er whatsit, a Christmas decoration or something. I gotta wash Lee, Lee brought these er for the shepherd ne , you going next week? Mm. What the shepherd thing? Erm their play. I gotta go on to next Thursday. Half past one? Have you? Yeah I'll come up with you. I gotta er cos he can go in the creche look Mm. up there, so that'll be alright. Did we go last year? We did didn't we? And they all stood on the stage doing something? Yeah they did. Didn't they? Yeah. No we didn't go last year. Singing. They were singing weren't they remember? Oh yeah yeah that was right yeah. In the hall. And then that funny speech didn't they? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, got a bit boring when they started talking so we walked off. Mm. Yeah. You're going a creche next week. What? In Lee's class, the play. Play with all the toys. That'll be nice. Like you did last time, remember? What? With them ladies. With the ladies. And you played with the sand and the water. In Lee's school. Remember you went in his classroom and you was playing? Yeah? You're going there next week, that'll be nice won't it? Play in Lee's classroom with all the toys. What erm what in in in in Yeah. You'll like that babe won't you? What one? Up the school. At school. What one? He got a tiny little face round here hasn't he? he is isn't he? Mm. He's got big cheeks. Got a tiny, it's small though innit? He's got a real little face hasn't he? Yeah but he it's not a baby face any more. No. Small though innit? His jaw and that. Yeah but you wait till he gets older. It'll start filling out. Mm. Like Jay's shooting up so much that he, he, he just cannot put weight on . On. That's Lee's like that mind. You know they're just shooting up all the time. They can't put weight on. I thought you skinny little rake. time, yeah you look at them you think oh skinny Like a beanpole. Did you say beanpole you little rake? Yeah. Do you? Yeah I say you got to behave yourself to my children yeah. To Chrissie and Jason. Have to do as they're told. Yeah yeah yeah. Oh you get some Ange did you? Yeah that's what I had. I've given . One for Alex from Lee and Ben Oh yeah yeah Zoe's knocking on the window tomorrow. Yeah. Sharon ain't here. Yeah. Ange and Pete. Oh thank you. Rowena and Dave. Is that how you spell Roma? Yeah I think so but if not Well it's just too bad, you're like me Ange Jenny. Yeah. and family and family. Thought I can't give one without the other. No. Jan. Got her give it this morning. Yeah. Lynn. Lynn. I put in there well I can't remember, what'd I put? Lynn put Lynn and I put Lynn and husband. And then I put and what's her name? Erm oh gosh! I had to think what's her name? And he, he said oh that's erm. Did you forget as well? Yeah. I just stick it on. If she's coming. Just turn it on. when it click. No I didn't even hear it click so let you know. Mind you if it's up there you won't know. It, well if it stops it stops. Cos I only wanna do one tape Yeah. I need to do one tape. Yeah. And I'll recommend Zoe then so it won't be so bad . Yeah. See she still brings that dog up the school and it says on that paper you know no dogs allowed in the school. Yeah I know and the other one does as well. Her, her friend. What's her name? Yeah. Ryan's mum. Carol. She she gets hold of her a lot now don't she? Mm. Carol Nattering to her and Zoe's husband with her this morning. Was he? Is that her husband or brother? With the glasses on? Yeah. Her husband. Thinnish. Yeah. Not th thin thin, but just slight Yeah Dark hair with glasses? Yeah. Mm yeah he was with her this morning. Oh was he? Mm. Oh. Go careful cos you might fall. Yeah, jeans on. Yeah. Yeah Yeah I know. I don't know what he sees in her Ange. Must be something about her. Yeah that's really nice . Turn it over. Why? So anyway Zoe's gonna have some . And they fitted her Ange so I told you I bet she put them on first. Yeah because they were baggy. She, I told Jenny Yeah I told you. She must have stretched them. That's what she did. Cos the box was open wasn't it? Mm. And one of the things were I think she is a size eight looking at her feet they look bigger than my fives. she's a size eight cos our she's a size eight for nothing. Cos that is a big five. She is She is a size eight She must of Ange cos they were slopping. I know. She she stretched them. Well she'll never get a size four on, my boots. Cos I said order them size four. And she said why Hope she doesn't stretch them. She goes that's probably why she was telling me to get the flat ones cos she won't get them on. Cos she I said no no I don't want those. And she goes . See she can't wear high heels. No No. That's your mum Ange. Yeah she said erm you have it my love don't you worry but I said no I'll give you some no no I don't want no money for it at all she said, you take it my love. She said th that's buy her a box of chocolates. Won't I? No way gonna do. Well get her a box of chocolates. Yeah can she eat chocolates? I'll get her a box of chocolates and a Christmas card. I can't just take it for nothing can I? Yeah no ah She won't take, she said I don't want no money she said. You're welcome . Ah. I thought Cath might have . But the funny is Yeah. Cos I think Zoe thinks cos I ain't got any parents look Yeah. like her mum gives her stuff. Mm. Yeah. She gives it to me look. She says well you ain't got no-one to . What? going I'm going home . I gotta do some work and mummy has cos heavy so it must be a big one. Yes, I expect it is. What is it I don't know. I didn't ask long as it goes innit? She said it were works, it's fine That's good. she said to me yeah it works. Cath's just tested it, she said it works . It's probably too big for her thingy or something. Yeah. Stick it over in the corner. Yeah, put it over there. Be nice. Yeah. Oh Chris'll say what have you been buying? I'll say we've got a microwave Chris. He'll say what? I'll say for nothing. What? He'll love that Ange! He can go in there and god knows what else. He can get his own then. Yeah he can go in there. it all in there. Yeah. Oh I'll have to get her a box of chocolates. Yeah. Get her a little something She said let me know when you're coming my love she said cos erm I don't like cos I'm on me own strangers and that Oh yeah. I said alright I'll I'll . It was embarrassing talking to her Ange . Yeah I know it do don't it? Have to get her some chocolates same as Zoe. I'll say give me some money I want to go and get her some chocolates. Mm. That's nice that is. Nice. Cos if she, if she can't have chocolates ask Zoe what she likes. Yeah. Yes. That's alright. Saves you buying one. Well yeah. Cos you was gonna buy one. Yes. That's good. Must be my lucky day Ange. I want a thousand pounds to come through the door now. Erm no you don't want money. You want er chairs. Yeah. You want someone to give you some lino Lino. New units Someone to come to do all this for you. Yeah. New units. Three piece suite. Yeah she said her next door neighbour Yeah. got a colour like Jenny's, wine though it is Ah. corner unit, dralon. She said to me you . And she said can I have it? Yeah. Cos I want a corner unit look. Yeah you always wanted one. Yeah so she's gonna ask her . She said she ain't Oh yeah. Well that's alright Ange . Hope you get it. Yeah. Yeah. It's a bit embarrassing though. Cos they're obviously saying oh give it to Ange look. Yeah. The You know what I mean? the offs! Yeah Oh well Ange if you ain't gotta pay for it I'd bloody take it. Yeah, yeah I'd be a fool innit? Don't look a gift horse in the mouth that's what they say innit? Yeah yeah that's it. You know,money if somebody wants to offer you some, take it. I flipping well would. Good. About time you had something go right. You watch you'll have that microwave and then the 'll come in. It'll blow up. Yeah, it'll blow up, it'll go Oh don't . Right. Thanks. Good. paid forty five pounds for his. And it's not even a nice one either. No, that's alright. It's free. So you gotta go round and get it have you Ange? Yeah. But she said it's a bit too heavy to Oh yeah carry so get your husband to come round and get it. Yeah well you go round with him and just tell her through the letter box, don't say anything. Yeah. It's up to Zoe to tell her. Well Zoe said tell me up the school Yeah. that does this mean? Three. Oh that's alright. Four. So if, if he goes round after er school he can just walk round and see if he can get it. Yeah. Ange. Alright. have you got a microwave I was gonna say no has. No, don't say no. Bloody have it. You wanna ask she knows anyone with Yeah Oh Ange your shopping Right see you at half past twelve then Ange, come over a bit before at twelve if you want. Alright then I will. Alright? Alright. Ta ta Ben. Bye bye then. Ta ta . Not only that I've gotta fit in like the children as well. Well Clare was off yesterday. Yeah. With a cold and whatever. And and er Katie was off the day before with something and just managed to get to school that day. They were all, both off last week. Mm. But my mum's pretty good you know what I mean she as long as I can arrange it round her she'll arrange her arrangements around me sort of thing. Yeah. But if they're sick I mean there's no way I can take them to anybody's house. No. They're not ill enough to be staying in bed. Otherwise I'd have to cancel altogether. Yeah. And I thinks to myself well I might as well be going out earning money if they're not in bed. No. Ah Have you gotta have him today or not? No. Katie I took out of school and then she went back again. Oh. Oh yeah there, there's some people I wouldn't take them to. Do you know what I mean. Yeah, I know what you mean. I'm so starving. Do you have a breakfast? No. Oh. Yeah a sandwich in a minute. How the hell do you keep so slim. I've completely cut out Well we've been rushing around haven't we? Haven't got time to think about food. No. Been here there and everywhere, you know what I mean? Yeah. How did Ann have her hair cut then? She had it cut into the neck. Yeah. Well to start off with she had it just trimmed at the neck. Yeah Right? Just took the ends off Yeah. without thinning it out, thinning it out at all. And then she wanted me to sort of layer it in which would look better cos she wanted to keep the fringe longer. Yeah. So she's actually sort of had it Cut into the neck. cut into the neck but it's sort of brushed back Yeah. Looks better. But she don't have her st , her hair cut sort of every sort six weeks. But she ought to. Yes, true. Soon as my perm's Eh? Start again Sue. Yeah. Right go on then. The woman was lucky she had a perm in then this morning? Who? chemist Yeah, yeah. He's isn't he? What? How old's this one then? Three. Just. He's too young to go to nursery then is he? Yeah. They won't take him till next summer. Will they Ben? No. So it'll be quite the top Sue. Right. Alright? Yeah. the top the better Right. no no no no You've already had a disaster in the month didn't you? Yeah You're a hairdresser. You what? She's a hairdresser. I'm a hairdresser, yeah. Does people's hair like mummy's. Makes me look tidy occasionally. Sue why are you doing that? No no. Not having it cut. Zoe goes to me why don't you have it all chopped off Oh I said cos the perm's coming out, shut up. Someone gave me a microwave oven this morning for nothing. Yeah? She rung me up and asked me did I want a microwave oven? Yeah. I says no she says have you got one I says no but I was gonna say Ange has cos I thought she wanted to defrost something. Yeah. And she said well our mother's got one you can have. She, she said you can have it. I said no I'll buy it off her she said no our mother don't want no money. So I spoke to her mum. And she said no you have it my love. I've just bought a new one and you can have it. So I gotta go round and get it. Who's this then? Zoe. You know Zoe? Oh yeah. Her mum. giving a microwave oven for nowt. I thought that's alright. They're ever so handy. I thought. Well I was gonna buy one, but what's the point? Well Yeah. When you gotta pick it up then? Some time today or tomorrow. I don't know. Yeah? You're friendly with Zoe are you? Yeah. Yeah I used to go to playgroup when er she used to take Adam and our, I used to take our Lee up. Yeah. Yeah I don't want a lot off the back mind Sue, then it can grow. No. I ain't cut any off the back at all. I'm just taking the ends off the It's a bit knotty innit, at the ends? Yeah. I think half of that was the highlights see? Innit? Yeah. Who did, who did your highlights? Erm Zana. Who? Like when Angie said, You ought to have seen her when she looked in the mirror . She went argh. I said quick we'll get a toner on, we'll get a toner . fine now. She said I got, she said to me Sue I want a lot, all over. Yeah. So I thought right. That's how she wants it so I done a lot. When she took the hat off she went erm erm erm I don't think I wanted that many! Mm. I got used, I got used to it now. Yeah. When you first seen it though. I thought bloody hell. I said it looks really nice Ange I said. I said it looks lov , I said what we'll do I said we'll rush down the road and we'll get a tint. I said it, I think it suits you. Oh dear. Well what can you say? When you just nothing you can do. Nothing at all you can do. I thought ooh. I was going And you don't know the colour until you've actually washed it off anyway. Yeah. I mean I ha , I hate doing them. Ooh. Mhm. Right. Yeah. Do you want a sandwich now, Sue? No. Sure? No I'll have one in erm In a minute. When you've done. Alright. Mum. Mm? I Don't tell me. Look. What? I do a poo. Oh What a morning. I wish Ange was here. She would be most helpful if she was here. Well it, yeah. Passing things. Tell Ange to come and help pass me things Ben. What? Mummy says you gotta come to her house and pass the things . No. No? Why not? I can't cos I can't open the door. That's alright. Eat your dinner. Eat your dinner. So what do you think of my breakfast bar then Sue? It's very good. It's good? Yeah. He can't finish it. He gotta put this bit on there. Yeah. And that'll be coming today or tomorrow. Half the wall's done. Cos I ran out of money. So I shall get one next week. Yeah. I've been doing it bit by bit. Know what I mean? It's twelve pound for a bloody tub of that stuff. Yeah. That Polyripple , and I've got to do this side again it's rubbish. Yeah. Then I gotta paint it. What colour you doing it? Like erm what is it, magnolia? Yeah. Yeah. Put me new floor in after Christmas. In the sales. Yeah. . Ha ha ha ha ha Yeah, alright Ben. Why've you got that? Oh I'll blow me nose with it in a minute. Oh have you got a lighter now? No. I've got matches behind you Sue. Up on the Oh. Why do you Over there Sue. Up on that thing Where? Oh. Oh, dear dear dear. What's wrong with your hair? Talk about desperate. So what time did you leave? Here? This morning, yeah. Erm oh what time did you get here? Eleven? Yeah. Must have been about quarter to then. I only just missed you then. Yeah, cos I didn't go out it wasn't, you know it was going on eleven when I left here. Yeah. Yeah cos I got up J C R at eleven o'clock cos I looked at the clock up there. Yeah. Yeah. Oh I could have kicked myself when I got up there. Went all that way on the bus. Come back again. Well you'll know next time. Oh dear. What does you live? I lives in a house. Where? Along the road a bit. She lives in a hole in the ground. Not quite. Not quite in a hole? That's right. Sue lives in a hole. With badgers. Bodger and Badger she lives with. Mm. Yeah. He'll be saying to me is that lady coming who lives in a hole now,Bodger and Badger. It's like we went to visit one of Phil's uncles and aunts, few weeks ago. And er course we went about three weeks before that then we got invited over for tea . Yeah? And er course the first time you know, first impressions like Yeah. you know what I mean and everything. And the second time we goes up. Are we gonna see that lady yet mum? I said what lady? The one with the big elephant, you know that lady. I was thinking Oh yeah oh my god, who the bloody hell's got a Big elephant. Yeah well you gotta decipher the words first before you Yeah. So you know what they're chatting about. Oh dear. I thought what the bloody hell's she on about. It's getting colder now innit? I can't stand it. Mm. Well it is December. Yeah I know, but. Yeah but last we , week was quite warm weren't it? Yeah. Cos to me last, I did this one on crisps last week. Did you? Yeah. This woman the door she said to me would you like to try some crisps?yes. Come in. Two packets . And er sh it had on there this is to do with crisps right, and it, and it had on the survey how warm do you think the weather is? Do you think it's cold or warm? Well I thought what's that gotta do with crisps? Said well I think it's quite warm for this time of year December like. Yeah. And now it's freezing. Eat your cheese on toast. No And old Sue won't be here at half past eleven, half past twelve hurry up. Come on. Yeah cos I've been coming round at, cos you said I'm in all day, you know sort of any time. I thought right. Until the gas ran out. Yeah. I went to turn the fire on and there's no gas. I thought oh no, just my luck. Just my luck. Just my luck I thought. Do you drive at all? No. No. Only and up the wall that's all. Mm. Don't say mm! Mm. I did drive. Passed me test about twelve years ago. Did you? Well why . Don't you drive now? No. Why not? Last time I attempted it I drove into the gates at . Oh that's not . Oh no. I bet you could do it an emergency though. I don't know. I don't know. I tried to, I tea I expect you would. I was teasing Phil the other day. I said give us the keys and said I'll take the bloody car. So he give me the keys and I couldn't start it. Oh no. So you passed your test? You refresher course. You could do it. Yeah, no the thing is I'm not a driver. I shouldn't have took it in the first place. Well you passed it. I passed. Yeah, the second time. But I shouldn't have pa , I shouldn't have been a dri , I'm not a driver. I'd rather, much rather walk. Me brain's so bloody crinkled up with other things I haven't got time to bloody think about driving. That's like me. I had six right and on the, on the fifth one he said you done really well, I didn't tell you nothing. On the sixth one it was like this sort of year and I was getting into Christmas and that. And I'm driving along and I'm thinking all about Christmas You panic now then I should imagine. Eh? I should think you were getting rea , a real panic then. When? What, taking your sixth test, did you say? Not test. I mean like lessons Oh lessons. And erm I'm in the car like, and I'm driving along. And he says you're doing really really well. That was it. I started thinking about Christmas then didn't I? Not what I'm doing. He had to grab the wheel twice I think he smashed two cars coming down the road. Oh no. I thought that's it. I stops the car. I said take me in. That's it. I ain't getting in here again. Mm. I think The thing is I've been out a few times with my husband cos it's his car. Yeah? Do you know what I mean it is erm it's his car and I can't do nothing wrong with it. Know what I mean? No. I drove out to Yate one day from Westerley Road Yeah. you know Westerley Road? And you know that, that er I don't know if you know up that way round at all? You know that sort of? Westerley Road? Yeah. Yeah. And there's that nasty turning on the left isn't there as you go to Yate Yeah, yeah. Phil where's this damn road? Is it coming up? Philip where's this road to? And we were driving along Philip where's the bloody road . Oh dear. You gotta have a lot of confidence haven't you? You've got to have a lot of confidence. And the thing is with my kids, if I was in the car on my own I could imagine chatting away Yeah. and I wouldn't be able to concentrate at all. Yeah. And it's not only risking my life it's risking their lives as well. Yeah that's what I worries about. What if the kids . Have you got a car? Have you got a car? No I haven't. Chris wouldn't let me drive his car. He said the other week weren't it Benj? I said, you know that bend just out here? I said let me drive it round there. So he gets out, I gets in. I can't even move vroom vroom And he said well come on then we're stuck halfway up on the kerb here. We're going vroom weren't we? And we, I said oh I'm getting out now. I can't do it. All the neighbours was looking at I. I thought bloody hell. Bloody hell. Oops. We'll scrub that off the tape. off the tape. . You forget, they've got little ears haven't they? Mm. Ben. Oops. What a big mouth you've got. All the better to eat you with Ben. What are you talking about? I'm flicking all me ash What are you talking about? Ben slide that ashtray down to me. Well that saucer. What saucer? They'll think what kind of home does she live in? Saucer for a bloody ashtray. me and Ange this morning. Chatting chatting. Chatting chatting Yeah phone call out the blue. And I . And she said you got a microwave Ange? I said no I was just about to say cos Ange have, you know Yeah. I'll ask Ange. And she said well our mother's said you can have hers. I said what? Pardon? She said our mum said you can have her microwave. I said oh I'll give her some, oh no she said she don't want no money for it. I said why not? She said she just don't. She said you can have it. Cos I've met her mum like. Yeah. Go in there sometimes with Zoe. And our mum said you come round and get it. Quite bad isn't she? Or She's in a wheelchair isn't she? Yeah. Oh she's been in a wheelchair for years. Yeah. But erm She said to me. When you come round she said, her mum. She said just press the buzzer and say it's you cos I'm, I'm on my own. I said alright. Her husband died has he? Yeah. He died a few years back didn't he? I don't know. Mm. Thing is I didn't like to ask her about her mum because er, didn't think she, she was very quite bad a few years ago when I knew her. Yeah. She's al , she's alright like, you know? Yeah. She's not sort of ill ill. She's, she chatting. Disabled. Yeah, that's it. She's disabled. Yeah. That's it. What, what what. What? What? What's what? Did you say? What did I say? I dunno. What did you say? I ain't got a clue. What, what. You talked to Louise your girlfriend, didn't you? What? Who? You. Who? You. Who? Talked to Louise. Just now? Yeah, on the phone . You got a girlfriend? Yeah. Yeah. And Tommy got one at playgroup and I said what's her name and he said welly. So it must be Wendy or something. Yeah. I don't know. You don't know her name? Or Kelly, Kelly Yeah. Kelly's Is it Kelly? Erm I think so. Ah that's it then. Not Wendy? Where does he go to er Up erm tut Coronation Road up there, you know scout hut. By the park. You know where the swings are up by the shops? Yeah. You know the park? Yeah. Right over the other side of the field there's that Yeah. like looks like a scout hut. But ? No. till after Christmas and then I'm taking him out. I'm taking him out after Christmas . I'm sending him up erm Mulwell Green Yeah. Eh? Nanny's grave? Yeah. No. Yes we did. Oh Nanny Davis' grave we've seen, yeah. Great nanny Davis you mean. Yeah. . Sue will you go? No. Go and get in your basket for god's sake dog. God. My name . I wanted to call her Blackie . Novel. We went out Sunday right Sue? Yeah. And we come in about eight . And we come in and Chris opened the front door to let the dog out. And he said he noticed something on the path but he couldn't see what it was. Anyway he goes to work in the morning. I take the kids to school. Comes back and like blood, right all over the front of that doorstep Really? that there. All round by the bin Yeah? all up to the path to the grass. Really? That big, like this it was. Not little bits. Big lumps, blood. And it was all up pa , the side of the path. And to the end of the path, you know as you're coming along that long path there? Yeah? All down there and I had to get a it was that much I had to get a bucket of water, soapy water to scrub it down. So I don't know what was going on there. Chris said, it was there at eleven o'clock he said cos I thought it was, somebody had spilt something. Yeah. And it was blood. Oh it was horrible. Oh no . I don't know what was going on. evidently while we was out look? Yeah. Cos when we come home it was dark. And you wouldn't have noticed it. No. And we was asleep wasn't we? Chris said it might have been somebody that knew you like, was banging on the door. I said more like someone was being bloody chased. Yeah. You know? Just cut, took a short cut. Across look cos that comes from the grave look if you go round his fence there. Yeah. That's the grave look, straight across. Where? It's not too dry is it Sue? It's alright innit? Yeah . It don't have to be wound wet does it? Or does it? Damp. Yeah, it's gotta be damp. Oh I wouldn't worry. Dish, dish of water over that'll do. That'll do. Alright. That's it. What Oh it's a bit of water. Why? Don't ask me why. I don't know. I got to in a minute. Yeah. I'll put the water on so that I, I can have hot water on my head. Put on your head. Mummy's a pig. A pig? Benny want a cheese on toast? Want a cheese on toast? Yeah. Do you? Want a cheese on toast? What do you reckon on that Freddie Mercury dying? Yeah I know. I know. Well I didn't realize he was a weirdo. He looked like a weirdo Yeah. But they've been keeping it though haven't they? Hiding it. Well they must have done. They must have done. Here Suze, have a, have a tomato and cheese. Here you are. Open your mouth. Ready? Catch. They you are. That's nice innit? Go on hide it. That's it, take it in your bed. Leave her Ben. It's so rubbery she can't even chew it. Oh dear. You know Lynn's working now? Yeah. Working quite hard too isn't she? Yeah, yeah. So Ange was saying she's, she gets a bit funny don't she? Bit paranoid, yeah. Cor bloody hell she give I three questions the other day. Did you, did Jenny come round your house? Did you go round Jenny's house? Have you been talking about me? I thought oh my god. Mm. I borrowed fifty P off her the oth , I was going up the school, and I only had four fifty for the I needed fifty P but I didn't have enough change like. Yeah? thirty P. So I said to her, you know, can I borrow fifty P off you till I see you later. Yeah she said so she gives I fifty P so I paid the dinner. She comes down here all I did was put me coat on, right? Yeah. And walk out that door, there. And she asked me for the fifty P. Really? Yeah. She ask , I mean I had it for her all ready. I went up the shops and changed a pound. You know Yeah. so I'd have it for her? And er she asked me for it. I thought bloody hell Lynn you're only waiting for fifty P, you know? But still she seems to be round here all the time more or less don't she? Yeah. She's a bit funny. Do you ever go up her house? Yeah, now and again. But she erm like, you know? Yeah. I remember another time I borrowed her strimmer, right? Yeah. And I on the Friday. On the Monday I take it back but I didn't see her and I forgot. Yeah. See her on the Tuesday and she said to me erm Chris was coming round your house Saturday. And I looked at her, I said what for. She said because er he wanted our strimmer back. I went oh god I said I'll go and get it for you. I goes and gets the strimmer. I said there you are. She said he was fuming. He wanted to know where the strimmer was, he was Yeah. He was looking to see where you lived. I said my god Lynn, I, it was only a mistake. Forgot, you know but you'd get it back. Oh and she didn't take no bloody notice of me might have been Well she knows she's, she's a bit funny then. Otherwise she wouldn't feel so conscious about it. You gotta be careful with her. Mm. You know, what you say to her. And if you tell her about somebody she'll tell them. Yeah. You know chat I said don't like me hair. She'll go and tell them. Yeah you've gotta be careful. Cos Ange said she'd, she'd been chatting about Jenny to her. She went and told Jenny. And Jenny asked Ange about it. See? Maybe it's the best thing she could have done then, get a job? Yeah. And now she's paranoid. She thinks everyone's talking about her. I said I've got better things to do than talk about you Lynn. Yeah. And that day we was all over Jenny's. Ange said let's pop in Jenny's. So we go down Jenny's and er the door knocked and I said Christ it's Lynn . And Lynn came in. You should have seen her face cos we were sat in Jenny's. Ooh. Ooh. Oh well. She does stare quite a bit I must admit. Yeah. Don't she? Yeah she does. as if every, she thinks everybody is talking about her . Yes. There's no need for it. Yeah I know. And what's this Angie's taking her kid little boy out of school. Yeah. She's thinking of taking him out isn't she. Cos erm I mean she went to a report evening and Miss said, was saying about Jay and saying you know if he falls behind you know what'll happen and Ange says what? Well you'll have to go in the office. Course that was playing on Angie's mind see and Miss said she'd give Jason extra work. Yeah. Cos it had been playing on her mind for weeks. Mm. So she's been trying to get work off her. Well in the end she took a stack and went in to see Miss and Miss tried to change the subject,subj Subject. Yeah. So erm anyway she told her that she wanted Jay out. And she wanted her to Mr . Well she hasn't gone to Mr . So Ange rang this bloke, woman who sorted out Chrissie at at the school. Yeah. And she goes up Parker school so she was going, she said to Ange she was talking to Miss tomorrow. Yesterday, sorry. Yeah. But Ange hasn't heard nothing. So I think she's gonna ring them back up again. I think Miss shouldn't have said what she said because Jay hasn't got a problem. But she just said it like if he drops down like Chrissie you know what would happen see? Yeah. Course it worried Ange look cos she don't want to go back in the office like last time. Mm. Get my Get your what? You got a watch on Sue? Mhm. What's the time? Yeah. In between doing you and the dentist, I was fitting in Mrs , she's Sharon's mum. Oh yeah. Oh you mean Sharon down the road? Yeah. Oh is it? You do her and her mum's hair then? Yeah. What do you think of Sharon's hair? Eh? Sharon. Well I cut it last week but erm Sharon,same Sharon aren't we? Sharon who lives at number twenty four. By Ange? Yeah. Yeah. She had it permed didn't she? You didn't do that did you? No I didn't do the perm. No, I trimmed it for her last week Yeah. cos it needed cutting. But she, she's asked me to perm it and she's cancelled and she's ever so funny with hairdressers sort of thing. Well erm I said if you want me to do it let me know and I'll come and do it but just make well she's cancelled before because once she hadn't got the money and Oh. which is the excuse, I'd rather somebody went along sort of said right I'll have it done such and such a time rather than keep buggering about Yeah. like anybody, do you know what I mean? Yeah. Oh come on, you've got to have one more in here. Right. And er you know she asked me to cut it for her so I cut it for her. Yeah. Which, it looks a hell of a lot better now than what it did before. Yeah, cos it looked a bit heavy I thought, on top didn't it? Yeah but erm So what time did you cut Ange's hair? About eleven. She still going up Kingswood? I don't know. Well she was going to go up Kingswood to see Lynn. Oh yeah. So she still might go up. If you cut her hair at eleven she said Mm. she said was she was going to go up about twelve? Yeah? I don't know . I think she said Lynn said she finishes at two today. Don't know why that is she normally finishes at, yeah half past two she . Do you want me to wet the front down? Mm? Do you want me to wet the front down or is that alright? No. It's alright I I done, I'm just there so Oh. Looks like black dresses are going out slightly more. . It's a bit further down I think. . They said they might be able to get before us though, didn't they? Penny went shopping with Rowan, into one of those very expensive boutiques shops, yeah, and between them they bought this dress, and when they got it home, Rowan's mother wouldn't let her have it because it was too revealing and so Penny was stuck with it and then her mother wouldn't let her have it either, but the shop wouldn't refund, it would only give them credit so she's got all this money to spend in the shop . This is quite nice, an anorak isn't it? Yes. With a hood, yes that's nice I like it I don't know. No Oh yes, that's the one I think. Sandy, that's what it was , it's a twelve. Yes, that's it, mm . They got it yesterday, oh it's gone up, no it's not the same one, they haven't got that one after all . That's . That's a different one isn't it? That's the one. I think I tried on a ten didn't I? It was a bit too small wasn't it? Was it? mm. A hundred and forty nine, that was the one, that was the one that she had. Try some more on let me have a look at them. Just erm, does it look daft?. she didn't want a long one. No, wanna try that do you? Yeah, but she has tried it before. Yeah, it was awful. She's, it was just erm, can we have the twelve, try the twelve that's only a ten, does it, does . We, do we try that one as well? We tried one like that didn't we?. Yes, that would , yes we did. What's that one, was that . That's right , yes, zip the hood that'll go over Let me see it on you. Wanted to wear . Go on, try them on. . The trouble with when you see one and like the sizes there are suppose to get it, because they go so quickly. Yeah, that's right. This time of the year and that . You don't know that . . Why, why don't you take it off? I'll try, will I . . I've got three quarters length underneath so they'll go up any way. Just too small look the ten. Yes, yes it is. Yeah it is. Yeah, there's no doubt about that, erm, well that was, that was the one that your stile that you liked wasn't it? Let's try . Yeah. Ah, that's the only one we have left in that There's one in the window I'm just gonna have a look, cos I never had noticed when I came in this morning What was in the window. Okay, that's quite nice, yeah that is quite nice, I like that. I think that's a bit more mod really, thing is this is more the sort you had isn't it? I quite like that one at the end as well. The reddy one. The gi , that one hanging up. Yes, that's short you see, isn't it again? That's the same as the Yeah, but that's very short that is. Yeah I'm . don't say much. You'd like the duffel coat won't you, no, oh well,if you don't like it. Don't particularly like the red either, Well I mean, yes I think that . Two hundred and ninety nine, that one there . Do you like that one . That's longer . Is a twelve in that? You have one, yes that's nice nice colours. Is it real? Yeah, I tell you what looks . . It looks nice in a ten but that's all . Just want to try on . It is just because of your hair. And of course it's a practical length, but there you are you've got to like it. Yeah,. I like this better than that duffel coat one . The other one . The thing about it is, is a classic style . That's beautiful on you, that's the one to have . It's not going to date. It's not a fashion jacket, No. whereas, erm, the shorter ones tend to be Beautiful fashionable. These are things that will, will have for years. Rachel I think that's the Can I ask if Do you like it better than Yeah, that's beautiful on you, isn't it? How much is it? Two hundred and ninety nine. It is, yeah. . and I'll put the rest, yeah, I'll give you that'll keep her warm and , that's beautiful. . That's lovely, absolutely You see it's . Don't worry about that, I'll pay a bit more for you. If you like it love, that's the most important thing Yeah. I, I, I don't want you to have anything you don't like. . She likes it? Yeah. Yes. That's, that's, bonny and beautiful isn't it? And they it gives it warm. Yeah, yeah. It's the most skin and there's so, there this so . It's beautiful. It's, it's like the one aunty Lynne had and I, I bought for aunty Lynne, years ago, that I still got in the cupboard you know. I wore it, all it was lovely,. What's that, the other one was it? That's the other ten. You can try the other ten if you want to be absolutely sure about it, cos it's, you know, look at the length of that one as well, I mean She's going to Russia for a week in February of all times and we want to have something really warm . So you won't to have something really warm . Beautiful buttons. Well . You can do that right up, right, you can turn the neck up, now this one here Do this one . it'll only be shorter, it won't keep you warm down the bottom, yeah and here on the neck it's, alright you can tell me the colour of, but it, it is quite . . . Okay . You sure? Oh it's lovely. It's, it's, nice. I know. And I think this, this with a white fur begins to look a big grubby after a while, but this colouring it, it doesn't show and . Beautiful, yeah, you convinced yourself. Yeah. I'm sure she has, she couldn't hesitate about that. . The colouring to the hair, I mean I've got it in another colour , but I, I think it , oh that's the colour colour wise, I mean The darker one . No this is the colour of your hair. No, for your hair I mean. . pay it's alright money wise? Thank you. , or you can have it right now . . That's right. Oh how embarrassing . That's it. It's gorgeous, there going to Moscow and St. Petersburg so, it should be lovely. Right . Yeah . Okay then. Actually I think I like this better now . Of course you do, I, I no my, I wouldn't say Rachel if I didn't think it was alright. Right. And you've got some nice warm trousers with it, you'll be well away, you'll, there, there keep you warm stockings and the thick socks, yeah. I'll give you a leaflet and everything on it, thank you very much indeed. Okay . Wait a minute you'll want this. Yeah You have it on? Yes, it's been on ages. That's fine. Erm, I don't suppose that you . Don't worry about it now, you You don't want the money . No, no, and I'll promise I will give you that . I'll hold the bag again for you got the gloves here too look. Yeah, yeah, I've got a pair of in that colour you could have . You, you put the date on it or your statement on it say . Ah?, yes. Will you use this, it's a suede guard, it's a suede and leather guard it's a rather good I think actually got one at home, but we . It's advisable to put it on before you wear the coat, what Right , you do is hang it over on the clothes line, stand back a few inches, just give it an even spray , yeah , you only do it the once unless you have the coat cleaned right and you know It's like a scotch guard for furniture really. yeah, it, it stops stains penetrating the skin Right. that's what it is Ah, yes. and the that we show you here tells you all about it, how to look after it and everything Yeah. now we give you those, but this is one pound, ten pence, it's well worth having, but if you get a mark on, once you've got that guard on Oh that's right. that'll just wipe it off Wipe it off, yeah . it tells you all about it in the book and also here. Thanks. Okay. You gonna take that as well? , enjoy your trip then. Thank you, yeah. Lovely lovely, your really lucky. Love to see them just to see what it's like, okay. Okay, thank you very much. Bye, bye. Bye yes I , they let me do it on that if you authorise them. Would you like to do it straight away on . I'll do it straight on that, I needn't go and authorise the cheque, have to get it on that No, that's fine , if that's all right with you? It'll come straight out. Yeah. Okay. Fine. Yeah, that's okay, thank you. Save you walking down the . That's right, thank you. Well say, I suppose the . Well yes, that's right, yeah. Did you apprec appreciate the . Then er No it's nice, I like it. Oh you . everybody else can . Probably and the teacher's, yeah. is it? Yes. Let's see . I say, thank you very much for . Bye, bye. Bye. Can you take all this back to the car, while you go into, if you go into A & N, I'll take all this back to the car while you go into A & N You sure?. up the ramp for you. No it's alright, Jenny. It's alright now,. I'll put the hind seat I'll bring the bag back . Bring the bag back . Ok. Sure. You go back up to A & N, I'll meet you in there, no where, you wanted tights Yeah. and what else do you want? I want some tights, I want some Berkshire there very good Jenny. I know, I've had Berkshire,. There very nice,. I'll meet you at the tights department , but you can go and have a look at the, anything else first if you want to and then come back to the tights, I'll shall be a minute or two. Alright, be careful Jenny don't fall.. . I know, yeah. lovely person, she's always been since a little girl. Mrs Noel, she's ever so impressed with her. Who? Mrs Noel, you know, the psychologist. Oh I don't know . Well you knew I was seeing her. Yeah, why?. I, but, you haven't met her . I got muddled because I thought that teacher, it's just a psychology. No. Well, why do I get to think that? Well how did you come to get in a psychologist. Well you knew about it, because erm when you use to stay with . , oh yes, that's right, just er, I couldn't . She was helping me with the french. Yeah, and she's a, yeah I . Yeah. What did she say about it then? Oh she said what a lovely loving mother I had and, she was ever so interested with her cos she said some of the people she sees, you know, are not very strict with their children and that all sorts of things and er, get's very cross with them Yeah , yeah. but erm, she let When your older she let mum you realise how important it is, that a, you've got to learn self control in life, and that's what Jenny learnt, she, she, never had to learn it, she had it from naturally from a, a little child. Tights are in the bag. Jen , Lynda's learnt it, but she hasn't got it, like your mother had, and she, she did dreadful things when she was little . it was in my training, she but she hadn't but your mother who never had before I could rely on her from a little child, I said stay there, when I came back, if I came back half an hour later, she'd still of been there Linda would of been . doing her own thing. But Mrs Noel's let her into the house you see, normally she doesn't let the mother's come in if she's trying to help a child with difficulties Yeah. but erm, she let mum come in cos she liked her. Yeah, yeah, I'm sure she did, you'll, and as you get older you'll need .. Oh alright then. And compared to me she's a much better person than I've ever been, she is, she's wonderful, in, but granddad's got a nice nature,granddad and that's, that's probably where she get's it from, I'm not . Yeah , I know One pair of those tights were seven ninety nine, it's no wonder I thought they were nice when I looked at them. Oh my god . I wanted er . They right them on . just the sort I have I think, I or, or the lycra ones they do sometimes. You could ask the girl . I also I don't like Pretty Polly at all. It's got a 'B' on it. There are A's at the end there and J's, huh. I was going to add it up a bit. Oh, no, no, no, no. . It maybe . I don't like the idea What do you want? . What do you want? Erm, I'm just looking for some with lycra because I like to be able to afford a bit more . I bought some pyjamas for your mum . Did you, oh she'll be pleased with that . It'll probably be for Christmas , there's not many I thought perhaps No. had an awful job to get them because there awful this, a horrible flannelette stuff. Mm. what's coming into fashion now are long woollen panties to wear underneath your trousers. , haven't seen those. I have, I'd get you a pair if you thought you'd wear them. Mm, you know. Yes. Why don't ankles. These are the one's I was looking at look, seven ninety nine, yeah,. I don't know where are the ones I normally have . Well, what sort did you want?. They've, there with lycra but, there kind of more cheap you know let me get these. Are they strong then? Well, they give, I, I don't know, it's the way they feel when you put them on, they sort of hold themselves up a bit better and Oh , and in my size, I'll try them and I'm a large and there's. There's some over there, but lot's of them have lycra ones. . Forty seven for Just be over here alright? though that's pretty good, you . . Oh these they have four, there not with lycra though are they? They didn't stock nannies make, but she's bought me mine. Oh right, well I pay my how much are they? First one seventeen. You sure? Right, now, well they don't do, but they do them at , now what do you want, do you want to have a look at the erm, green I want to have a look at the . Not as much as the ones I'll with you . This, is she wanted one, she wanted one for erm yourself didn't you? Eighteen pounds. No wonder I like things I was looking at these tights, yeah, it's just one pair, and they were about eight pounds That's like the . Oh you alright there? Golden Black. No, where is she? Mum says there are some round there in Golden Black if you want to come and see them. Where is that . There's one in blue as well look, behind it and with white and gold. Can I have a look at that one? That's right you like the gold did you? Mm. Got a square one as well. Yeah, I thought you liked the green. Yes, but there're a bit more unusual. that's nice. Cor, nice price too. . Me too. . Sixty two. Bags are always expensive in here. Is it? Well yes . Some more over there, do you want to have a quick look? Trying to think what Penny would like, but I can't. You, you said you was gonna get her some underwear. Yes, I think I will, I think that's quite a good idea, Joe's getting her jewellery, so. Yes , yeah, well there's always there's Marks & Spencers, no, no, we want to do what with got to do here first, now what have we got to do here Well we'll go Yes . you want to go and have a look . Yes, right up the stairs then. The escalator. The escalator's the other direction . Ok No, I don't believe he's going to use that. That's nice isn't it?, that's quite nice though isn't it? Oh yeah, I There's a short one. Yeah, there's a pendanty one, yeah Go up then? Yes Mine the step can't see any red tights I like, you know, from that shop . With a , erm, that shop in Woking, erm what's it called? Robinson's. did you say Robinson's? Yeah up I want to . Sorry. I want to . Oh yeah. . Are they . . They might have them upstairs. Yeah. it might be this store one, that I don't know. I would of thought it was more likely to be on this floor Materials there Yes, this is place, is this where they , very nice any more? And they've got the to match. Yes, it's not the right one. Wrong colour. Mm. They could probably get them though, couldn't they, if they've got Well I know we might get them when erm, in er Debenham's might'n we? Mm Anything else just here. If I just take the serviettes I could ask her if they were obtainable . yeah, they have those serviettes Yeah, probably change those,. No, I should think so, I should think it's just, that there probably sold those ones, they've only had certain colours of the range in. Mm, look at those flannels? . Mm, quite useful to have isn't it though bit that's quite nice . More one's as well . There's a green one there. That's a short one. They, that is a longer one There's a green one here. . one . Oh yes, that's nice. Five ninety nine. From eighteen ninety nine down to five ninety nine . It's got a nice edge hasn't it look? Yeah,for a change. I got, I got . Have you? If you wanted something just say. Just say, that would be alright, and he wears this green, this green stuff doesn't he? Who? John . It stopped so that they didn't miss the conversation. Can we get this in . Let me hold this for you. Let's come away from the top of the stairs cos it's Right Go down the other end I expect . . Yes, except for like the . Pretty. Isn't it? Mm. What for the wrapping paper Wrapping paper . Yeah. Beautiful. I just go and see if I can go and find some of these things then. Saw them at the same time, change of address . Change of address , there's invitations. It's quite nice, just plain. Yeah Different. Don't do that one because that's . Please come for Yeah, It's nice, I suppose please come for please I don't like that. No, no there not as nice as those pretty erm No. but it might be better to find a . That's quite nice. Yes, bit old, but how many do you want? Oh, about eight, you see this is the right number there so expensive here. Here's the children's, but that's a, that's a These I'll be alright. They haven't got any pads with them, writing pad, but that's . There quite pretty too. Little place cards, look. . Invitation, wedding do you want to look any where else or you have those cos cos you think these will be alright. No, these will be alright. You got some of those there. Mm, don't think there as nice as those ones we bought in that Oh, didn't . . . Oh really. Oh, all the other you know. I thought there pretty yeah. Yeah , mm No it doesn't look if there is anything else, but if you think these will be alright These will be fine , yeah. . Mm, you getting those? Yeah. Those, those little boxes you've got . Yeah , well I thought cos I've got those two little rings . Oh yeah for the boys. Yeah, those swirly ones are nice. Big boy. . No, no . The ones . Four twenty five please . . Yeah, so that. Five seventy five please. Thank you very much, can we just go and have a look at the pens then . Those are sweet, look at those little ones. That's a pad, paper and . Think these are lovely. A hundred pounds. . , I expect one of those will be alright, were they stripy ones we saw the other day? Where, where did you see those? That in that shop, we got the serviettes from ah, look at those elephants mum. Well I don't mind about, up to about ten . We saw some white Christmas . . Yeah. Yeah, we saw some attractive ones with a shop in that pub didn't we Rachel? Yeah. Erm that's a biro is it? No it's a pencil. That's average looking isn't it? Eleven ninety nine That's a some here, nine ninety nine. . Roller ball one, pencil that is. Mm, erm, this is a pen. I've got one like that, there very good Yeah. isn't it? Yeah. I did have the roller ball don't you? , it is good value, yeah. Nine, ninety nine. Well that's a roller ball yes. I did, I didn't erm, I didn't know whether you use it or not,. . What is that one, there both biro's. No, this one's a pen,that's a ball pen . He mightn't use pen nowadays, might he? No, I don't think, but he's quite old fashioned, he might. Difficult to know isn't it what . . What's that one there,. It's a ball point That's nine fifty, that's quite nice is that the same? The nine fifty. Ah is it a nine fifty is it? That'll be, that'll be alright, let's just have a look at the Shall I stop this for a while because of the noise? Yes. Well while you're just having look there for a minute I'm gonna nip to the basement and straight back up again ok , I won't be a minute. Ok , mm That's nice. That's the sort granddad wears. He wouldn't wear that collar though would he? Ah, that's extra large What's that? . . That's a large, yeah. There's a stripy one, but he wouldn't wear strips would he, like that? No, I don't think, but if it's pyjamas he . . .. That white one's quite nice. Yeah. It's extra large. Oh I think . No, oh . Let's see, what colour do you want? I'd like green, but I don't want a stripy one. Oh I see, erm. . That's the other, the other, they do seven, that's the other type, that's that one, I haven't got many of those left, that's a Oh, yes, that's the one, that's what I'm looking for, bet you haven't got , well he want's a large. that's a medium that one, erm Mm. I think that's a large one that I've got . that's what I wanted that would of been alright. That's a medium, that would be about forty. Mm. It wouldn't really fit forty . No, it wouldn't be right for him, he's an older man, you know, and it, would, you know, he's, it would, he would take it up more summer, I suppose it's not meant for summer cos it's got long sleeves. Yes it's, yes it's a, it's a, it's a winter one not, I don't think he'd like it that's a shame, they did it in red . Sorry. I don't think that's quite right for granddad is it? Got red, got navy blue there as well. Yeah, yeah, I did want . Sorry, thank you. what he wants. It's all money to spend you see. Yeah. Twenty two pounds,twenty per cent off. Was it? Ten per cent off, ten per cent off. I said ten, isn't it, right, Yeah. it's only two, two pound fifty in it, I mean. Thanks very much. Were getting a bit low actually I all there. No I don't need a . , oh good. I thought I had less than I actually had. Right So taken it down to the tills at the front, cos they move quicker Thank you No they don't,change, no, I've just give them what I had. I just got, well I get Where's the oh.. Shall I go onto Mark's or Yes you can go onto Mark's, I'll come to Mark's Where is it that I find. The the young lady. Down isn't it? Yeah, it's on it's . I'll just go and look at the underwear. Yes I Nanny these soap and things down on the right here, in front of you What one . , there like what I got mum, got mum a little basket . She showed it to me , she went up and fetch it, with the handles at the side. Yeah. I know she's thrilled to pieces with it. Oh good It's any that I can talk over it. Alright. I went to Chichester with Joe a couple of weekends ago. And you . Yeah. It was, he said, it's so wasn't it? Mm. Four for a pound the gent's handkerchief coloured or white. Chichester's a nice town isn't it? Yes, that's where I was at college . Got a battle cross in the middle of it. That's right. Do it, what's the battle cross for do you know? No one seems to know why it's called the battle cross. . Somebody asked me years after I'd been to college if it was still there. Oh it's still there now. Yes, I know it's still there now, but I mean er,. It's been there a very long time, cos that man was old who asked me, you, you know it was an old man he said that, and I was quite young, he said er, er is that cross still there in, in Chichester, I said yes, it's still there . Funny isn't it , funny building. Yes, and er there is a when we were there cos a good town, and I Now I'm looking for something for Penny, which isn't very expensive but nice, you know. Yeah. She gave me a lovely book on musical composer's last year which must have cost her a bomb. Yeah. Can't quite rise to that . Which is Penny . With red hair, bit more strawberry blonde than mine. I always think of underwear as very useful. Something like this would be alright, probably. Do you know her size? Well probably about my size, she's a bit, little bit bigger than me but not very much. How much do you want to pay then Rachel, you've got to say that. Well, don't know really They got some here look. It's a wired bra you wouldn't . No,. They're wired. Or something, you know, just ordinary Well this is,. .. That's quite pretty. Yeah. It's though . It's expensive though isn't it?something like, we got for Emma you know, a bit, but not quite so expensive maybe. What did we buy gran, oh the Mm. They seemed to be about four ninety instead of little plan ones, if you're gonna have a top as well it'll be a bit more expensive, these it? Yeah. Four ninety nine Yeah. and pants to match, what about that, that's quite pretty look. And they've got spots on. Yeah What are these over here,. Yeah, that sort of thing. That's four ninety nine look And the pants are three? Twelve to fourteen and there's a, that would be alright for her I should think, would it? Yes, she's about my size so. Yeah. She's a big bigger than me actually. Yeah she's a bit bigger than you I would think, twelve to fourteen would be alright I would think wouldn't you? There's Yeah , white or there's cream or there's black. Cream's lovely. cream, yeah. Yeah, that's very nice. She'll like the cream. Twelve to fourteen. Her colour hair. Erm definitely, twelve to fourteen in the . How about that?. That'll be fine , mm. Ok. Yeah. Right, here you are then, put it in. They've got some little boxes, gift boxes over there. Have they?. . I think there might be something at home nan. . Well actually we wouldn't need a very big one would we? No, you'd need a small one. Medium, ninety nine P. It's just that, these are the medium . These are the medium . Make up like that, look. That's plenty big enough though isn't it? Yeah. I expect we've got something at home smaller . Let's leave it , you might get one in the village any way if you want one. Oh look this is . If you go upstairs in there. Yes. One little box. They've only got medium and large so . No, they're a bit big , thank you . Bye, bye. I thought she was gonna, trying to get by Thank you. You not . Yes. I mean I, it's not I'll give you some money when I get home alright Quite difficult now, I try and think of something I haven't given her before. . Yeah. I've been trying to get some indoor fireworks and I can't get any, I thought it'll be just some. One of these? The one that's got the handle that goes inside, you know, it changes round, are they on there? There definitely here, you've seen them, you've seen them. I saw them here last time when I looked at them. sold out of them. . What colour is it mum? White it was white and red They vary , they vary What are they? That's yours, that type. I've looked every where. No. No, no, it's like a roller . . Were out of stock at the moment I'm afraid, when we do have them in, there twelve pounds, twenty five. Good grief. A lot of money . Will be having them in again? We will be having ok. How strange they doesn't have them, that was only a week or two . I what, I do know a bit about them that was the grapefruit scoop. Erm. That's it, isn't it? yeah but they might have a little one here,. They might have a little one That's it, it's a melon balls, that sort of thing. Melon, yeah. Ask the girl I can't see it. Do you have any of the peeler's, they have a peeler one end and a knife the other, interchanging by the handle, I've seen them here before. A grater/peeler one end and a, and an ordinary knife the other,, I mean if, if it have to candle over the top, you had them Erm No I haven't heard of that one, I'll go and see about that one. These are quite nice. Yes, aren't they sweet? I like that pop one. . Ah. I like that, with colours on it like. Oh they wouldn't be any good for us but it might That sort I'll be alright . Yeah, quite nice. Like the shoe. Aren't they lovely, aren't they unusual? What are they for? Back door mat. No smoking beyond this bush. I see, yeah. Nice little perfume in it? Yeah, Do you want to put that in here? Yes, I think that's a good idea. A glass Didn't know you wanted one. You want a drink of hot milk? I'll have water please No, no thanks, I'll have . Wow. There's some more I think you've got mum's . Any one know where Richards gone? He's gone football or something you know. Where was he this morning? He'd gone to get those tickets. What tickets? Oh, photo's, he should of gone to get photo's should of think. I don't know I think this morning. Who's that? , take some photographs of car parks, should of been there weeks ago and she and you have to be ready for, she should have been in this week how he's going to get them to do that, there's a train, there's a er few hours service or what, it's gonna cost a bomb And he'll probably end up paying for it cos he I don't know whether he's doing it or not, it's what he should of been doing. Well be seems to have understood a little bit more about life, by, it's slipping away from him. How hard it is yeah. Is he still . I saw that film . girl or something. He's no he's been back at work,off now, he's what . Mm, I think he's erm, they went to Canada or South America for there summer holidays about October. Had a wonderful time. Yeah. . Yeah. You can't hear a thing, deaf as the, deaf as a post, and doesn't wear any thing, I feel it's very one side conversation because he, he says all the talking and they can't muck in almost unbearable, cos she likes to talk a lot to and she couldn't get a word in because . couldn't hear a word . And how many mum I'd much . smoke . We've didn't we Only one. or is this . there wasn't much hassle Is it only one . Do you want a bit more? Alan a bit more? No thanks Got . not doing to badly at all today digged it up well Wonder what Lynn's doing, getting up. might be. . . There're all be tired . It's . it's about er seven, six o'clock in the morning. In the morning. I enjoyed that . Mm. . Yes, cos it's, it's . in the middle of the morning our Jack never and erm, say, all they , it was awful he going on between us between us it was awful Everything all right? It's nice. Do you want any more?. , that oh dear, you have to take this stuff with water it says, it is a horror one so I bought us some chocolate eclairs, have you got them? Sure go and get one for you? It's alright. Reg will go. Thank you,chocolate eclair. No idea there,a cake somewhere. Hovering in the ladies bag. I bought Jane that flower. That's pretty isn't it? Isn't that pretty? Yeah. That's got . Yeah, sure is. Sure is, wouldn't you take them? Lovely colour, rich isn't it? Colour, yeah. Yeah, rich colour I was having this year very well. No need to put out in the, in the garden there, oh we've had to . I'll have to bring that . Thank you. It's alright. Put them there, but forgot to do a with them, so instead of re-potting them and Do you have to do I put a . Are you sure your wrist all right? She bleeds easily. Mm. Bit of a . Not like aunt Bea is she? Mm, not like aunt Bea? No, quite in fact with glasses and false teeth and hearing aid and and crutches And that no glasses, no hearing aid, no . . False teeth . And a hundred. yeah. I wonder, I must be looking at on her Or being chased by Red Indians . Yeah, shot in the behind by an arrow. Did she get for her Indians. Yeah Yeah, one shot. Shut in the box. Shut in the box. Barry didn't believe me,the scars. So she lifted up her skirt . What got me is, when we went out to this, this shopping mall, where we were, when we go to have this brunch, she was in . . I said what. When she got there she asked the manager and she said I want a table where all these people can sit . All my relations can sit,. There from England, I want the best for them . And I'll pay. is a laugh. There was about twelve or thirteen of us there. Oh dear. There's everybody, er, er Kathy was in an up roar. . Getting enough tables there together for us all to all sit together, you can imagine can't you? Mm. It had to be done and it was done too. They all sat in one table. They were I suppose. Oh yes, they knew her, cos it somewhere quite near her. Yeah. Her apartment was, she would pop in, pop in every morning. They'd half shift themselves . They . I can't remember what we had thought, I can't. I can't remember, not a clue, all the people in the apartment has been invite . and she's so coherent. Yes. . . I've never heard of her being ill, have you? No. But she likes everybody weight on her though finger. Yeah. And she'd worn herself out,. marry a rich husband, captain went for his niece, his nephew, she was . . Does it . Oh we know she was. Dad couldn't bear her .. Where they? Yes Did you know much about her then? It's a shame . Why, I, I, saw her once, I, I got one picture out there, you had us coming down the stairs, . quarters, that's where I can remember her in. Where is, yeah she was there, did she come over then? That point in time, she had gone to the, the States and then she come back. Oh yeah she come back . She was on a, on a, on trip, oh and then she called on you. She called on us Yeah. and she was with the, Er she had left her husband and was with this her nephew, oh I can imagine her . , yes, in those days it was absolutely taboo, you know to have any , I have been there you know. Dreadful yeah. . Yes. . No, from what I said this morning I meant not being there, without realising that What's that? The . I'll explain it to you later . . I'll explain it to you later. But, er, don't , I'd rather not know why. Oh dear get rid of all this. What are you doing? Oh no, no. No, no we can't hear it till the end. You'll hear when it's finished. Yeah. But, mum will you like some and some . back to the car and I said no, Rachel take it back and she said oh you'll make it, go on in,. Go and get some tights. Some tights then. And I saw your mother and I was going on saying all your virtues and how she's been a good girl, how does that, how er, how erm self discipline she was and all this is on the tape Don't worry. Oh again now Reference there, who is, mm Where is Richard? I don't know, I think mum said he's out. Who was the lady you were talking to who you knew? She lives in Bigerry Lane, behind us behind us. Oh. And she's got two boys there . Oh. And erm, I didn't know they came to orchestra, perhaps they've only just joined. Didn't know her at all. I do, she's a child mind. Oh is she? And I often see her walking past with the children on the way to pick up others from the school. With the bike? No not with the bike Oh. She's usually got a pushchair if I remember. Oh no, I don't, I don't think I remember. Alright. She reminds me of . Yes, a little How long you are you both . Yes, it's erm, they came on stage, I think it would be good for and then they when coming to New Zealand yeah,the whole . Where were they . It was, no were staying with mum. Yeah. Gonna stay over night with her, Tuesday night. How long is it since you've seen . Three and a half years, three, four years . . Longer. . Three and a half years. Oh she met Yeah. she likes it down there. Yes they love it,. . . Well they've . You see. Yes. Something like that, yeah, I mean they do . Yeah, they have to, they have to stay there three years to get citizenship, now they've got duel citizenship, and he won't go he back . Ready to go back. Mm, should think they were, they love it. Totally different Yeah,. . No, were, were staying put, because I think that while mum won't . . Yeah. We should go down I think Rachel and I as before, and . she finishes on the Thirty. thirty. . Oh that's why I . . Richard was supposed to remind me. . So we might go down that weekend for Rachel and then after Christmas . we've both got a week off, and we thought we'd all can go just for a couple of days Erm. but, erm, we shan't be there And how long do you . Oh, somewhere between four and six weeks . Do you New Zealand think they have already . . Yeah. Well that's right cos they were thinking of erm, mind you they've stop, they've already parted and they stopped two days in and then Oh . there flying . Just like our . And then coming to us and then . when they go back . Stop in Tokyo for three or four days, so erm, before they go on home, so it really is a Got a . Yes, two boys and a growing . Oh lovely. What . I think they'd always sort of wanted to go and explore, yes, and it seemed the ideal time, the boys were just about school age, erm, sort of you could well . I have . I was just looking to see if I could see those two boys, see what there names, because Paul and Richard. yes, that's right clarinet's, and string clarinet. Mm. Murphy, that's it and , Richard Murphy, that's right, her names Murphy. Don't know whether Sally still goes she's, I think she's gone to university now. Yes, if she . No the other one might though. , she's flute wasn't she? Yeah, she's not there . No, she's not there , no,not often . What about erm what's her name, the other one from my school plays the oboe Did she?. oh no, the clarinet lady,. Yeah No, that's not the oboe here she is there, now which one is she? Where are they? In the centre, at the back. No, it's not one of those it's not all of them though, look there's a whole be more than that won't there? There are three one on there, and that boys playing one, no he hasn't got one I shouldn't think, unless the boys are . There's four, there she is. Always smells funny in here just the colour we need isn't it? somebody farts in assembly. No I think they did so dull and boring I think I've gotta fart! was you! Hi Hi Hi Hi today. Oh right! It'll be Sorry! It's alright everybody does it. That's a bad thing You've got to have a dream if you don't have a dream how you gonna have a dream come true do da da da You're mad you two! What else can we sing er erm I don't know. Er let's see er Aga doo doo doo No I'm not! push pineapple, drink coffee I'll come back in a minute okay but don't go in without me. It's cannelloni today and er What you saying? It's Italian pasta dish. Oh that's healthy! What you having? Hello I'll have broccoli with it but I thought it had it in it broccoli in it? Yeah I that green stuff inside. That's spinach. Wh w oh that's ginger bread these are I think so. Urgh ! I like that it's nice. for later. Hey so what's the matter with it? I don't know Alright that's pretty much Yeah. How exciting! ! stripes. Don't like the look, never mind! broken a chair Is it? Oh well! Don't you Perhaps she's got another hospital appointment or something. No she didn't have The English thing is separate. Yeah ginger bread mm. is separate innit? No quite big bits in it too he's a funny man, that man isn't he? He said you can get them in France. Alright yeah. Let's send to them. mean, big brown eyes. No he hasn't. Where's he gone? Oh! like somebody I could mention Where is everyone today, there's so few people aren't there? Yeah. They're what? They're so few people. Yeah. Don't suppose we know where they are. They sit oh there's Andrew and Beeper Oh got a smelly, grotty ! Thank you I think we all should make a pact. an I tell you hold this then Okay,an look look! Hold that one What you gonna say? Erm I think we ought to make a pact not to blame each other if we copy the answers on th kind of thing What are you talking about? In biology if we copy each others answers and not to blame o each other when we get them wrong. Yeah okay. Okay, hereby make a pact. ! Here. Might as well. We're making a pact now, okay? Alright, how do you do that? There I hereby make a pact that I will not blame Joe for anything I copy off her in biology. Right then I'll do that one. ha . Why aren't you saying your bit? Okay, okay yeah I won't blame any of my friends same here. In biology. Here, here. How do you do that? What? Don't worry. Better that I don't that I don't be proud better live in harmony. Have you got down the back? String bow you mean? Yeah. Don't go anywhere without my violin. Yeah. Yes. You're not playing in the carol concert are you? No If you want salad instead of Christmas lunch you have to sign comme e sta Sorry? Comme e sta I don't know. Have you been to that fifty one Sorry? the concert . . No Jane. What's the boy doing? Christmas lunch on Thursday or Monday. Oh quite fancy that actually. Oh you're not having Christmas lunch. Christmas lunch is . Some of it I just thought and you make but not all of it. Think they are but it might not be we could ask they'll probably be the vegetarian Christmas lunch as well won't there? I . Okay? Yeah. Erm a bit weird! Mm? How many people are you getting to do this thing? How many people am I am I what? Are they in this thing? I don't know oh cos I don't know, I think so a lot noisier than usual in here. No so many people Sorry? first. If you see it hanging down, tell me. there you go. Want to see if I can spot Miss and Victor. Oh yeah eighty and she's sort of sixty three, no that's a bit early isn't it? Seventy one. No if she's about forty now she's fifty Yeah. yeah so she'd have been twenty and she'd have been in nineteen seventy. That's Mrs ? Yeah she's was She'd have been She was quite to us. How old twenty Mrs ! Oh yeah Mrs Mrs When she was about twenty. Mrs ! Oh gosh she looked really different! Mrs about I didn't recognise her. I did. My mum had her hair like that. So did my mum ha ha! Wow this is look at this look ! What? No she looks the same. Still Who else? Er Working out how old there she would have been if she was twenty then To be forty she'd have had to have been born in the nineteen seventies About twenty nine so you're looking for them be eighty fives Don't think aren't you? sixty five we're looking for Why? Because that's when she'd have been fifteen. Oh yeah I mean she would have been born in the forties wouldn't she not seventies! I was born in the seventies she might be in this one. Then she's always late, isn't she, so she probably wouldn't. Yeah probably about sixty five expect there some where there in tra and she said she was in the fourth year, didn't she? Yeah ar yeah. These must be the sixth formers in the dresses. Yeah probably. Their hairs th the hairstyles are really funny! Yeah. Look at these hairstyles! Look at that one! Yeah look at that one !maybe we've miscalculated. That might be later might'n it? Might be earlier ! There's a sixty one. What staff have left and They must be the ones in the white blouses then. Yeah mm mm. It's funny isn't it, you don't imagine people with hair like that! It's fifty four. She was a bit of a tart, weren't she? Yeah. and this is only there's the bandstand, Miss . Oh yeah, while she was a teacher then,I say ! I say! Green oh Mrs . Oh she might be in an eighty one. Eighty one as a pupil? Mm in the sixth form. Eighty one? Or in eighty. No way! No way ! Oh yeah well maybe a bit before that these are the eighties. Where was Do you reckon Miss then? Mm? Do you reckon polio then? Probably. I thought she knew, she had when she was a child. Did she? I don't know then. Mm mm Miss ! No it must have been before nineteen eighty. I reckon it was seventy five to seventy nine. I reckon seventy one then. I dunno know. Too strenuous for me! Denise . Sorry? They're very early aren't they? Twe twenty seven. Fifty seven. Sorry? Fifty seven, if she was born in forty seven, she'd be forty seven she'd be forty forty four now Yeah. and if she was about sixty something. No cos she'd have been twenty then wouldn't she almost No no not in sixty No. one. Oh yeah sixty one. There was sixty one. How old would she have been in sixty one? Forty forty two, forty one, twenty nine three seventeen six Me, I was fine thank you! What have you It's a bit. don't look like it . Should I not ask? If you want . Right Here we are. Mm. Mm. we've finished the last, we've finished the last one. . Yeah. Was it nice?. Mm, ok those peculiar people. Who is? Those wondering round in a daze and being peculiar. Oh, sorry Who was that too. I'm sorry. . that's . What? . Ooh very motional . Erm, I believe that the toilet roll off, that's what I usually do. . Yeah, it shows up more. What you talking about? . . Solved the problem, don't worry. You get if you use the toilet roll? Sorry? . Why do you want it to glow, it'll show more if it glowed. It's fashionable. It is fashionable . Well you . Mm, no. Well . It's French next. I haven't got French next. I hate French. Why? Cos I have to speak to her. about a conversation then? What about it, that's worse isn't it? Yeah, well it's the same thing. I mean you don't . But not to her. No,. Er not recently no. No. You come back in here or not? Yeah. Yeah. Well now,. Yeah. Yeah.. Er, what is it? . Where is she?. It's at erm, Wembley isn't it? I can't remember . Who's go is it? What you go . Er . I need that one as well. Mm. I need that one as well. And that one? Hold on, hold on I picked up what she put down. No, that's right. That is right. I put a card down . Sure. Yeah. Oh. No, I did pick it up. I believe you. I thought Louise was being very obliging. I know, I thought I was a bit. I put two on Rachel's Oh Rachel, she's won every game so far. We've only played one. No,. . It wasn't yesterday, it was ages ago. Was it? Mm. I . . No, it wasn't this week. I have to give you a . You sure?. . . a cab . . quite easily . There all . So, show me yours otherwise I might not put something down. . No, don't. that's, that's Oh no . don't need that. How'd you know, it's your go isn't it? Your go. It's my go, oh. Good evening. This is another in our series on Britain in Europe. Tonight, and during the next two Tuesday programmes, we are going to look at cultural links and influences. This evening I have with me Norbert Lynton, who is Professor of History of Art at the University. Norbert, is British art influenced at all by what goes on in the Continent? I think British artists, much more than the general public, British artists are pretty aware of what's going on on the Continent. Influenced is more difficult to say. I think very often the influence goes the other way. Now that's something we in England, in Britain I should say, are not particularly aware of, but a lot of British artists who are very well known on the Continent, that in Britain would seem, you know, too avant-garde to be known to the wider public. Could you give me an example, or examples? Well, I could, but they'd be meaningless in a sense. I mean, well, by coincidence there's an exhibition at this moment at the Whitechapel Art Gallery in London; upstairs there's a show of Tony Cragg. Now I'd not seen his work before, that's partly because I'm in Brighton and not in London and don't get up that often perhaps, but he has hardly shown in England, whereas he's very well known in Europe, using Europe for the Continent. He's had many one-man shows in European galleries, but this Whitechapel show is his first real sort of public display in this country. Now this applies to many other artists. A man like Richard Hamilton, for instance, who's now pretty well known in this country, was much better known on the Continent of Europe and in America, in Switzerland, in Germany, in Northern Italy — Milan particularly — much better known there than he was for decades. Traditionally, I always feel that the influence goes the other way. I think of people, grand old British artists, like Turner for example, going on grand tours and coming back to Britain and going through, as it were , a period of painting where he is influenced by what he's seen and heard and experienced in Europe, and then more latterly I think of France as being, Paris as being the centre of art and British artists going and spending their period in Paris and coming back and going through an impressionist or an expressionist phase. I don't sort of think of it as art going in the other direction. Well, you're suffering from, if I may put it that crudely, of a well-known British disease of a lack of self-regard in a sense. The British in their quiet way think of themselves as the salt of the earth, and quite rightly too, but where matters of culture are concerned they do have this tendency to think that the best things happen abroad and at best can be borrowed from abroad. In Turner's time art was very international. Rome was, I suppose, the capital of the art world, but Rome was essentially an international place where many a Britisher was famous; where Flaxman, for instance, had established himself as one of the most famous artists in the world. We hardly mention him nowadays. Turner did the grand tour, certainly; he learnt a lot in Italy, but he learnt equally a great deal from English artists and from Dutch artists and in so far as he used the grand tour, and used what Rome and other countries had to offer, that's what every artist did, every European artist, not just the English. And of course there have been many moments when English art was very important on the Continent indeed. An obvious example is the Pre-Raphaelites, who, whilst still being spurned in England, except that they were collected by, I don't know, Manchester businessmen, spurned in London, let's say, were enormously influential in Brussels, in Paris, and in Germany and Austria. Can I ask you a rather difficult question? As an amateur person, as it were, interested in art, I get very confused about what's been happening in the past fifty to eighty years. I think I can more or less understand in general terms what happens up until sort of the impressionist time, maybe just post-impressionist. After that it all gets rather confusing. There seem to be so many different terms — action paintings, abstract impressionisms, realisms, geometrical art, monochromes, dozens of other different terms. Is there any real development and trend that could be explained perhaps in rather simple language to people like myself? There's no one dominant trend at the moment I don't think. Impressionism has really made things very difficult in so far as people think that impressionism is a kind of normal state for art to be in and anything else is a kind of deviation from good sense. Impressionism was a very extreme form of art. I'm amazed it ever happened. I am even more amazed that, having hated it, people have now come to love it quite so much. I mean I can understand why they do and I like the stuff myself, but I don't share the belief that I get from all sides that impressionism is what art should be like normally. You see impressionism isn't art about anything very much, it's art as description — a very lively, lovable form of description, pure and simple — whereas normally art has been full of messages and meaning and didacticism if you like — full of morality and sermonizing very often, and that is normal for art. A lot of modern art has tended to be that way, often abstract art, that people think is meaningless, is in fact full of very serious messages if only people are willing to listen to them. It's a big subject but I'm in a sense referring to it only in this context because it's precisely in these areas that British art in the twentieth century has been very important. A man like Ben Nicholson, elderly now, rather frail, still I hope working — certainly last year he was still working and exhibiting — is part of an international modern art tendency, or number of tendencies and is recognized as such, and yet if you examine his art, it's full of Englishness as well. You see one can be both. One can be both part of the international abstract art and some of his work is abstract, and even in that context bring into it qualities that once one knows the idiom people can recognize as purely English and one can also, at the same time as he was much of the time, be a figurative artist that do landscapes, interiors, figure paintings (rarely), and figure drawings of a very high quality, and again they are partly of an international modern and they are partly essentially English works. What about the art public? It seems to me that ultimately artists must be successful or otherwise because of the public response to their output. Is the British public different from New York public or the Continental public? Ah, alas, I don't know how to say this without seeming to go to extremes. Only in Britain would eminent, highly educated people, leaders of society, heads of educational institutions, ministers, etc. etc., think it was worth mocking modern art. Please believe me, this is absolutely true. You go to an avant-garde exhibition in Germany or in Italy, in France, in New York of course, and you find that a lot of people want to be informed about it and even, if they are not normally art people, they accept it in the sense of not mocking it. In Britain it seems to be a kind of tradition that if you refer to modern art at all, you make jokes about it. Even Henry Moore until quite recently was still being mocked for the holes that go through his sculptures and so on, and the tradition continues. I used to find it kind of funny. I find it painful because it wastes a lot of effort. It means a lot of being enjoy being on the wrong side, if I can put it that way. Certainly, on my visits to exhibitions, such as at the Royal Academy, my impression is that the British public much prefers the older works, as it were. At the post-impressionist exhibition you could scarcely move at all for people, but at the new spirit in painting exhibition, which is currently on at the R A, there's a lot of space and people on the whole go round very quickly and are rather sceptical about it all. This actually reinforces what you're saying I suppose. Yes, I think you would find that everywhere people will crowd into especially post-impressionism, which is Van Gogh, etc., more than they would into an avant-garde exhibition. I don't mean that people necessarily have to like what's going on. What I'm begging, especially our leaders so to speak, to do is to stop thinking that it's all kind of a joke that's being perpetrated by idiots or by of some sort against the public. Alas the exhibition at the Royal Academy, it should be fuller of course because there are some good things there. Any exhibition is worth going looking at and thinking about, but I do think that that is an extraordinarily bad exhibition. It's the first time I've come away from an exhibition thinking that the exhibition as such was stupid. Not everything in it is stupid, but there's no point to the exhibition and there's certainly not a new spirit being displayed there. They certainly seem to be unrelated, many of the artists and the canvases and the paintings shown. Well a very ordinary thing has happened there, but it has happened on such an extraordinary scale that I think it's worth saying. The work on show, of course, let's say was done in the seventies, I mean we're only in nineteen eighty one now. Most of it was done in the seventies, some was done in the sixties. Many of the artists on show of course are quite elderly, and some of them are dead. What that exhibition in fact is doing is that it's not saying here's a new spirit in painting, it's saying that we the organizers, having not bothered to show you these things in the sixties and seventies, will now allow you to see them in the eighties, and we will pretend there's a new spirit because we think it's good for the art world to have new fashions, new movements, or at least something new going on that will produce some kind of emotional pressure. But in fact they're all rather dated? It's all rather dated, and some of it's very good and some of it's so so, and some of it's plain ordinary. Let me ask you about one particular artist, whose name has actually escaped me at the moment That doesn't help! He does more or less blank paintings of single monotone colours of various kinds. Now, can you remember the name of the artist? Oh yes, Alan Charlton. Alan Charlton. Now, with the best will in the world, I stand in front of that sort of painting and I get very little from it. Yes. Now, have you got any comment to make about that? O yes. erm I could lecture you for hours at a time on the subject. This kind of art's often referred to as minimal art, which helps, you know, like most stables there's a quite way of referring to stuff, and indeed very often this kind of art relates to very simple forms, which just one colour, or perhaps no colour if it's a piece of wood for instance, or a large canvass covered with just one colour, a monochrome canvas — you referred to monochromes earlier. It started as a movement, that is again the critics that is that again the critics picked it up and made something of it worth discussing in the mid-sixties. The only short way to help people with this kind of art, I think, is to refer to things like pyramids. There is a sense in which after much complex art, much elaborate art, much sermonizing art of the sort I was talking about earlier, people sometimes get the urge to simplify things down and in a sense they say let's go back to the five finger exercise, let's see what a note on the piano sounds like instead of playing, you know, Chopin or Stravinsky all the time, let's remind ourselves what the actual note sounds like, or two notes together, or one note and then a gap and then another note, and you suddenly become aware of the richness, in a sense in these very simple elements. In the case of Alan Charlton, he has these six very fine grey panels, by very fine I just mean they are handsomely proportioned, they are very carefully coloured to a very precise, not just colour but also weight of colour and brightness and so on, but the way they're shown in the Royal Academy Exhibition, and this is part of it's stupidity, is, well I got the feeling it was intended to kill them to stone dead by putting them next to something very loud, very elaborate, very expressionist, a vast canvass by a very good painter by Mutter. To put these two things together is like forcing people to eat, I don't know, salt and sugar in the same spoonful. I am not saying which is the salt and which is the sugar — it just is absolutely designed not to produce an intelligent reaction in the spectator. The only way to show work is to show it either absolutely by itself, in a very plain setting, so that you can notice every detail of how the light falls on it and so on, or to show it with other absolutely minimal works, so again you get this utter simplicity and you become very aware of the space in which the thing is hanging and so on , but there must be a very clear, simple setting, as indeed for new classicism, and I sometimes think that this kind of art is the son or grandson of new classicism, in which incidentally Britain was the leading country. So, lastly, where is art going in the future? Would you care to gaze in your crystal ball? Briefly, no. I've tried it sometimes, never long enough to know whether I did it successfully or not, but I found there is absolutely no way of telling because even if it changes in a way one can predict, what one can predict is the way oneself changes or the world changes at the same time. The thing about art is that it isn't just a nostalgic wallowing in things of the past that are comfortable, but art as an adventure, and one just has to go along with it. Thank you very much Norbert. Next week, Michael Hall will be talking about music. Until next week then, goodnight. Hello It's me again, with this head of mine. What have you been doing to your head now? I've already been up at your You says it was inflammation of the nerves in the Aye. . It's not been away at all. Has it not? No. Let's get it x-rayed Eh. and see what's going on. Let's see I thought it was a . I took it off Doctor, and I I take so mind the wee er nerve pills that you gave me mamma . Mhm. Och, I can't remember, Diazepam, took one of them at , whether it's nerves or what Mhm. I don't know. Ah that's a nerve, that's a nerve getting inflamed up the back there . Well it took the pain away like that. Let's get this thing sorted and see. Aye, your stomach and back . And it had been going, you see me stomach as well. Yeah. I've been burping an awful lot, in my stomach. What's worrying you? Och, I don't know. I haven't the foggiest. Have I feel awfully depressed as well. Right. Whether it's this pain that's doing it I know I don't know. Let's get this head of your x-rayed and see what's going on. I don't know what's causing it. Just not going away, even the tablets that you gave me, they wasn't even taking it away, it, away like . The ? Aye,. I mean for a while I think it was maybe my glasses, but these are just new No. lenses I've got. Now then. I thought the change of life would be starting on me as well. Well this is the other thing that could could be starting. Ah. You're a bit young. Ah but even me ma me mammy she was young and all,she was thirty seven. She was just thirty seven, was she ? Aye. Well When she started to change. Yeah. You're getting near, you're getting near . Ah slowly but surely. Well let's get you something to Can you give me something to do for it Doctor? Aye. I don't like to ask you but me mam asked you me to ask you if you could give her something for to give her some energy, she's sleeping all the time now. Why did you give her sleeping pills? No, she Cannae get awake? She's not been taking them, she's been able to sleep at night but she's sleeping all day and all. Right. Just something for to pep her up a bit. But I I I'm at early in the morning so me mammy says, Why don't you try one of the Diazepam that I've got. I took one and it took it away. Disappeared? Aye. Ah well it's definitely, it's sounds like a, if it's doing it that it sounds like an inflammation on the nerves right enough. Aye, took it away no bother. Mhm. Now that's for your mum. That's my mam. Mrs , so there's no mistake. And that's Mrs . Okay. And now yourself, er Now this is the stuff er very like Valium Aye. and the Diazepam, er but it's nice and gentle it's easier As long as it doesn't make me sleep. No your alright, it won't knock you out, this it the thing, this is the great thing about this. And you take this every day, Every day . one after your cup of tea in the morning Aha. And one after your cup of tea at six o'clock. Right. And you take that over to and get Any time? some x-rays. Aye, any time after er I guess half past nine in the morning. Right. Just give it to the lassie and she'll put you through straight away. Mhm. Get your x-rays done and they'll send the results over to us in a week . To just to out-patients that I go to Aye. Aye. You know the first when you go in. Ah just as you go in it's just er First one on the right Right, aye. hand side. And they'll check that out for you and we'll see what's happening but it's just in case there's any arthritis or anything like that that's Aye. causing it, er or some dry rot setting in. nice. Get it, get it organized, make it Okey-dokey. organized dry rot. Right thanks very much Dr . Right? Okay. Right but get your mum started on that, get her, Get her up and going,. get her going . Right, Many thinks, cheerio. right cheerio now. Okay would you like to start then? Right has everyone had a chance to look at some stuff since last time? Much. Okay Sally-Ann, have you had a chance to look at some of the things which we're gonna do today as well? I haven't had a look at any books at all but, erm I was worried about . Okay so do you want to run us through some of the things that we haven't really discussed in detail of what we're gonna talk about in here today, specifically have we, I mean I thought something along the lines of er the nature and extent of sexual variations in English, or any other language you want. So in what way can it differ Men and women differ in conversation? and you can make it specific you can just discuss it and make very specific interruptions or turn-taking if you want. On the other hand you could talk about things in general what the different aspects in the speech are being in other languages as well. Is this yeah I mean okay cover the languages to show how they did it properly, so if there is something else you want to bring in then that would be good. But I suppose it would mainly worthwhile concentrating on English, because that's where most of the data's from. Er I've got some notes here which I can go through wouldn't actually be necessary but When Sally-Ann's going through her notes if anyone else would like raise anything which backs it up or disagrees with it or whatever then, you know please you know butt in and say whatever think might might be relevant at the time. have you stopped the erm the The don't before Easter though. What ? I'm not quite sure when the official handing in date for this essay is, because of the fact that some essays have overrun from last term. I suppose that really, probably is Friday week three but, I don't suppose it has to be. Which reminds me. Have I got your last essay in yet or not? I'm a little bit confused there and I can't get it out. Okay. Honest. Okay. Well like I say I'll I'll mark the rest of them when I've got them all in. I can't really mark then till I don I don't want to mark them until I've got them all in cos otherwise it's not really fair so hopefully next week sometime. I this morning, I've been running around and I can't get it out . What is it on WordPerfect? Hm. I keep getting and things like that. Oh maybe could go to the advisory after I think they're open till five. Mm. If you go there afterwards and what they say. Er right okay then. Right erm these notes are sort of based on a lecture that I went to when I was in sixth form erm and the theme for it is, Men And Women, Do We Speak The Same Language? Erm so first of all sounds and pronunciation. Er men tend to have a lower pitch on the whole, erm th they're louder and the's due to their physiological differences, erm Jacqueline once said that, Men try to talk bigger than they are whereas women talk as though they're smaller. Erm it's been shown that women strive for a pronunciations and and sort of go more towards the . Erm some women tend to have more pitch variation and they're more emotional so they're more likely to use encouraging tones er which can sometimes be seen to be slightly patronizing, whereas boys think it's soppy to be emotional or expressive way, so that if you're in school and you're asking people to read out in class, erm a girl would be more likely to be more expressive, whereas a boy would be a little bit more monotonous, and just sort of read it out and not put any emotion into it. And go to words of meaning, erm and the descriptions of colours where men are more likely to say purple whereas women would describe it as aubergine or plum and go into more detail about the shading than the colour. Then erm names, babies I if a baby's christened Timothy er it gets called Timmy or Nicholas gets called Nicky, which sort of ties in with the biscuits being called bickie and horsie and doggie and all this sort of ee things that you say to babies. But as soon as the n the kid Nicky hits teenage years then he wants to be called Nick, whereas if the girl's been christened Nicola and she's called Nicky through her childhood, when she hits teens she's still called Nicky. So girls don't seem to mind the ee thing whereas the the boys do. Erm also if you look at entertainment, like James Saville calls himself Jimmy Saville, Terence Wogan is Terry Wogan, so but then you look at people like Charlie Chaplin, when he was doing his comedian role he was c he called himself Charlie Chaplin, and when he's directing films he called himself Charles Chaplin, so maybe it's all like a bit of a serious thing. So maybe that implies that when do the kids have got that ee ending. Then we go to the taboo language and if you talk about when you go to the toilet, if you Everybody excuses themselves to leave and that's both men and women and then somehow you have to say where you're going, so the women are more likely to use the polite sort of euphemistic kinds of things like they'd say toilet or loo, whereas the men are more likely to say bog. And they actually say what they do when they get there. Oh, younger men are more likely to use coarser tones and be more explicit erm although they wouldn't use those sort terms to their father or elder men, and the women are more likely to use euphemisms like Spend a penny, Powder your nose and things like that. And then we go to grammar. Women tend to use more standard forms er and men are more likely to use regional dialect forms. So that shows women are more status conscious and men are more Maybe could be more concerned with their macho image, and they associate the non-standard with macho image. Erm there is a study where they looked into erm men in the workforce and women and in the workforce and er if men worked together in factories it sort of reinforces their speech patterns, their workmates are reinforcing their speech pattern so they're more likely to use non- standard. And then there was a study into and area of Belfast where most of the men were unemployed and it was the women who were going out to work in the factory and it was found to be the other way round, and the women spoke more of a non-standard than the men did when the men were staying at home. It was the women going out to work. Then we get use and interaction. Women tend to use more questions which sort of softens the effect of what they're saying, so they'll say things like, There we go and the men say things like, Let's go. Erm women are more likely to use the words such as may, might, possibly, perhaps which seem to be a little less forceful. In turn-taking men have be shown to interrupt women more than they interrupt other men, er and then there's the use of mm. Erm it's been shown that men seem to er connect the word mm with I agree, that's what they use it to mean whereas the women tend to use mm as I understand. Erm so where do these differences come from? They come from the way socializes children er during the early school years, boys and girls tend to have different activity, the boys in the groups Are in groups outdoors and the girls and in tos and fros and they're sharing their little secrets and being loyal to each other and whispering away in little corners. So that women aren't taken seriously. So do we speak the same language? Yes, but with differences and we don't always the same message. And that's that. Okay, right. Has anyone got any other things to add to that? No. There was a when we were talking about erm how er women sit there and chatter, it's sort of trivial. Said to be trivial erm which meant it isn't erm book says that erm cos women talk about things like erm children and husband and things, Mhm whereas men talk about cars and stuff like that. And that's it's not true at all it's just different it considered. Right, and we've got part of this linked in with the stuff you might have done on Sapir-Wharf Hypothesis in the sense that er people talk about different things because they might be relevant to their actual lives. Er and of course if you're in one group, you might think that something's trivial and you might denigrate another a group for talking about those things, when in fact that group sees it as an important talk about it might see the thing that the other group hold dear to talk about as something trivial, and to denigrate. So yeah, I mean that's definitely something that that comes into it. Erm what sort of d differences are there in conversational styles? I mean it's a thing you might want to talk think about or you night have read about, things like interjections and er interruptions and overlapping. and how erm men tend to ignore them, they're like they're not interested and not going to pay any attention. Right, do you want to explain that a bit more, about Well things that they the actually say anything which is sort of a sign that you listening, understanding but if they delay it, it's say it 's the women that pauses,wanting some sort of suddenly realizes Right. that women uses use minimal responses anyway, then then you know like all males speak a male didn't use minimal responses so it wouldn't be that they interruptions listening necessarily it would just be that wouldn't expect to have to. Yeah, right yeah. Women use women use minim minimal responses but when men use them it quite often delay . I mean one thing that's mentioned before is about tag questions, which is where you put on question to the end of your sentence, as in Oh don't you agree or Isn't it or you know you know the sort of thing I mean. Er now I mean One thing that a lot of the literature says is that this might indicate a power, and another thing that the literature says is that it tends to be women who do more of it. It does,and say that erm you say that Okay. but I can't remember This is one of the things that some studies have shown it to be the case, other studies haven't. One thing that might be relevant to this is the fact that er one study came up with two different types of tag question, they call the two different tabs, aka tag question Modal tags and Effective tags. Now modal tag is one for seeking agreement whereas an effective tag is one that shows concern to the addressee and according to this study, if you looked and the sheer number of tags, women did use more tags than men, but in actual fact women used a higher proportion of the effective tags than men did. Women used seventy five percent effective tags and twenty five percent modal tags, so in general their tags were to show concern rather than to actual seek agreement, so it wasn't showing a lack of power according to this study. Whereas the men had sixty percent effective tags and forty percent modal which is still the same direction but to a lesser extent. Which shows that perhaps a misindica In this situation perhaps the men are seeking agreement rather than the women are, because the women seem to be doing it to actually show concern, rather than to seek agreement, which doesn't Turns a lot of the traditional thing about tag questions on it head. pointed out how tag questions there's only certain structures you can put them in, that were going to direct it rather than proper questions say someone who's asking all proper questions,is he going to use as many tag questions anyway? Mhm. and that sort of the that's something else which you might find, a lot of the time in er literature about interaction with children, you might find that er where parents are asking their children to do something, like if they're playing a game, you might find some You'll find that mothers and fathers talk differently to sons and daughters er so you start off with a direct ac action like Put that one there, if they're playing lego or something, straight prom Put that on there down to er Wouldn't it be a good idea to put that on there down to Could you put that on there or Let's put it on there. And you find more or more or less forceful ways of of giving directives, and one way of making some things perhaps a bit less forceful is to put a tag question on cos it's sort of adding a sort of pleading note on to it, to ask somebody to do it, I think. Has anyone read anything about turn-taking in conversation? Yes. And how that works. sort of there's a model, a conversational model and if it if it's if it's conversation is following a model then it's It means that it's running smoothly Mhm. and you erm you know your next big and the mean a signals as to whether or not it sort of the floor's being offered. Mhm. And you've just go to to generally in single sex conversation it follows the model. Quite often erm when it's men and women speaking the men will interrupt a little more erm which makes the women fall silent. Whereas women hardly ever overlapped Mhm okay. So in the two things that can happen in conversation to to give it To make it stop running smoothly are overlapping and interruption and like some of them are quite difficult to tell apart but usually it's If you're transcribing stuff it's fairly obvious. What's Can you remember what the point in a conversation is where a speaker has a chance to to become a new speaker? Like it's it's T R P transition relevance point? Yeah that's the thing I was thinking of the T R P like you say the transition relevance point. I mean that is like a point in the conversation where a change in turn-taking could ha potentially happen. Now when you get to a T R P what are the three things that can happen? I don't know if any of the li any of the stuff you read mentioned this or not. Erm the the somebody speaking includes erm address someone to make it really obvious who the next speaker's going to be. Mhm. Or it you leave it open and one of the other speakers in the More than One or more of the other speakers in the conversation could decide to start to talking, or no one could erm start talking the present speaker at the moment gets another chance to carry on. Okay that's right, yeah. Okay has anybody else got anything more on that on that subject?if we go back for a bit and just go back to the idea of the theory, which is something that probably should have come at the beginning but it doesn't matter too much. And like there are two different sort of schools of thought about men and women's conversation. Er one is like the traditional school of though and the other one is like the feminist way of looking at things. Er just to run through what the two what the two schools sort of think it will be fair to say that the traditional school thinks as follows. Er in terms of syntax and pronunciation, women were always thought of as being more careful than men, er a lot of dialectologists in the past considered women to be very conservative in their speech, they ascribed conservatism to them. Er men and women were always thought to use different specialist vocabularies, that's something else that was said. Er women were also said to be polite, diffident, verbose and deferential, which What all of those? Mhm. polite and deferential. Verbose as in when they actually said things, they they did a lot of talking. I'm not saying this is actually correct but this is the traditional view. Okay. Except that women were deferential to other speakers they would let they would they were they would allow themselves to be walked over in conversation but at the same time you had this stereotype of women who talked too much. I'm not saying that the same person thought of these two things at once, but Okay. These are these are things which were all said. Er said in in an article that women used empty language. That was a phrase he used. So what so traditional schools Thought that women did a lot of Recognized they thought that women did a lot of talking but that a lot of it wasn't really any use. Yeah that that was just the ideas it had. Whereas men talked more for function. Er and then to contrast this you've got like the feminist view er well it's a just reconstruct a lot of these ideas instead of saying that women's talk was diffident they said it was more considerate, and so the idea that quite often A lot of the features that are in this conversation aren't because women want to be deferential to the men they're talking to, it's that they actually want to show some consideration to to the turn-taking or the conversational style that's going on. Er in actual fact the speech styles aren't really comparable which is why you sort of get these contradictions. Er you fi What the feminist the schools says that a lot of languages minimize and trivialize interests and achievements of women and denigrate them by the way in which they use language and the way in which they talk about things. Er and similarly the syntax of languages are often said to be oppressive of women, a lot of the way that language is structured and a lot of the words that you get in a language, that's another thing that's said. there's one quite sort of ground breaking paper that obviously there's a lot in that people don't agree with but it was quite an important paper in terms of er in terms of feminist linguistics and feminism in general. It came out o it came out in nineteen seventy five. And that was by a women called Robin Lakehoff and she wrote a paper called l language and woman's place. Er the things that she said were that women used more hedges, such as I think er hedges are sort of things that get put into the conversation if al allegedly if somebody wants to give the impression that they're not quite sure, and they wouldn't w You know like I wouldn't want to say it for sure but I think that. Er and then similarly to that they er were said to seek agreement by Lakehoff she said they used more questions and more tag questions. She said, as you said, they s she said they used less swearing and more please and thank yous. And also as you said, the thing with colours, they were said to perhaps use less basic colour terms, so if some men were shown a bluey-green some men would say and some would say whereas a women allegedly would say turquoise or whatever. Er Now a lot of things in Lakehoff's paper perhaps people have disagreed with since then such as the things about tag questions and hedges erm I mean some studies have said that if you look at the actual modality of tag questions, like we said before, the actual function of it that isn't the case. But still it's an important paper that sort of broke away from a lot of the traditional thinking and led towards a lot more feminist stuff. I mean you c you can't really read wh a book on this list about women's and men, s language without finding the reference to Lakehoff in the back somewhere. Did she actually do research? Er a lot A lot of hers was intuition yeah, er some students were given shown some s some utterances Mhm. and they had to say which were said by men and which were said by women, and erm most of the ones with tag questions were said by women Right this women says that all Yes I mean in a sense that just sort of shows that a lot of people would agree with Lakehoff in the sense that they think that women use a lot of tag questions and have that speech style, erm I mean like we've been able to see, and what we can say is that men and women's language is different er and it's even possible to say in what way it's different, but the difficulty becomes when we actually want to say why those differences are. I mean some people say it diffidence some people say it's considerate so you have to then try and go a bit further beyond the actual differences to find out what the reasons behind them are. You also find different cultures have different ways of having men and women's language. Er some of the things which I won't go into in detail but a short list of some of the things which do differ among languages are interjections, particles, personal pronouns, titles, kinship terms, er nouns, verbs, noun multipliers, pronunciation. Er there's a book, which I don't think is on your list but it might be called By Thorn and Henley er which might be worth looking at. That's like full of about dozen or so papers each one I think, if it's the book I'm thinking of, is about a different community or a different language er so you might find some information about Samoa where there's a different societal hierarchical structure. Er children aren't brought up in the same maternal way as they are in in this country, and many other countries. Er similarly in I' think it's Japanese you find that men and women use different for certain things, er not because not because of terms of style just because they are the correct words to use if you are a man or if you are a women. Er lots of languages have very complex kinship terms where in English they're fairly simple, er I mean someone who is one of your parents brothers is going to be an uncle, no matter what. Whereas other communities will have father's brother and mother's brother and other ones still will then have different words depending on whether you're male or female. Er the same things happens with nouns and verbs and other things and in Ja Japanese again I think you find that the same words are pronounced differently. Er again I think you can find some information on that in Thorn and Henley. Right, er another situation where there's men and women differences is in multilingual communities, er you find that men and women's attitudes to varieties or language varieties or languages can carry so some men will try and avoid using one of their languages because they see it as a low prestige variety whereas some women will use it because for them it's a high prestige variety. Likewise you might find that switching and mixing will change according to status of the languages. Er there's another book which is similar to the other one in the sense that it made up of some papers by Phillips, Steel and Tants and that has some information about Mexicano in it, er and you find that some people er were giving Mexican language a low a low prestige rate whereas other group in the community were doing the opposite and giving a high prestige rate or certainly a less low one, er in favour of spanish a lot of the Because it was in I think it's in South America I guess, er you find that a lot of the locals were switching to spanish because it was coming the dominant language er because of societal pressures and constraints and so on. Er but a part of the community were trying to keep Mexicano and there's men and women differences in that. There's a Caribbean island and apparently they just because The men their sort of ancestors invaded the island,all the men and you know they Mhm. And then they kept their language kept the language. Right. Okay did anybody get a chance to read the paper which was about conversation? I just wondered what what that came up with as it's conclusion. W well it might be worth having a read of that. Er okay what else? Has anybody got any that I haven't haven't really covered yet? Mhm. and how erm but it probably got a little to do with the way groups actually organize. Whereas the boys are more but the tend to give more . Right. But the girls tend more equal responsibility and not . What differences do you f I mean have you got any specific examples there or? No Er the girls sort of say things like perhaps ask her, Do you have any We could get on a bit more so they don't include themselves in what they're going to do. Whereas the boys Give me the pie Get off my steps or something Mm. Right. Is there something about where one girl was using what would be boys language when Yeah. someone else came round to her house she was like you know get off my yard Yeah,Yeah, so girls are perfectly capable of using those when need be Yeah, I mean I The important thing is I think the children do recognize the differences, not that they don't notice the differences, because they're Like you say they're capable of using the other if it if it suits them. Er I mean that goes back again to the articles which you might have about the way that parents talk to their children, and you quite often find that then very very quickly the children grow up speaking in a same way as the parent of that sex talked to the them. So if a child gets spoken to in a fairly direct way by imagine a female child by her father and the same female child gets spoken to in a not so direct way be her mother, then even of this The child is likely to both version, she'll grow up using female variety because she's she can affiliate herself with her mother and I mean she knows that is the variety she's expected to use. I think can't really remember I don't know how father would use different language he's talking to his son or daughter. Yeah that's true as well. Er it sort of goes in four ways I mean the fathers talk more directly than the mothers whether or not it's a boy or a girl they're talking to. But they do talk more directly to boys than girls, so it's sort of graded in that way. Okay who wanted to talk briefly about what people are going to write about? Cos we haven't really sort of said anything. Has anyone got any I mean I you don't all need to write about the same thing or anything. Er does everyone want to do a general essay or do people want to do a s a specific thing? General essays can turn into just regurgitating from the . Okay so is there anything you've read that you all would want to concentrate on? Erm Well not that I've come across yet I'd rather do something that's getting the facts and then giving examples. Mhm. I want top do something on what what you noticed about and what you've got Right. Right. Er let me think. I'll just go and find out when the due date for this essay is, and then Cos if it is the end of week three then I'll I'll say o I'll say it can be in in week four sometime. But if it's due in when the project originally was which was week five, then that gives you a bit more time to decide exactly what you want to talk about cos if if it has go to be in week three or week four, then we really sort of like decide now what you're going to write about so that n Cos next week is gonna be our last meeting on this topic, so you really want to sort of give a bit of a presentation on what you're going to say. Yeah I want everyone to do like five or ten minutes next week on what they're gonna write. Okay I 'll just go and find out. What are they supposed to be doing by the way? What happens to the like project? It got cancelled . Cancelled It got cancelled? Oh right, didn't hear that then. There Oh that's why we're not doing it any more, so what do we have to do instead of having to do an essay ? Just an essay. Oh, they decided not to give us quite so much work? Mm. Oh right. So we Is that why the Is that what we're meant to be doing this term,tutorials? Think so I don't When do our tutorials stop? I'm really confused. We've got two more tutorials? What Oh yeah, week three and week four, and Yeah. I'm so confused about what's going on. I think I must be not looking at the list or not reading half the stuff. The first Who put dictation and and I was going, What? Where did it say that? I shan't find the le You know the letter we got sent in the holidays? Yeah. Well mine got sent home and I wasn't there I was here. Oh that's ridiculous Sarah, yeah So So I don't know. I I mean I've got I've read it once and and now I've lost it and it might even still be at home but I don't know where it is, I can't find. So I can't remember what it said in it. Ooh I don't know. my supervisor doesn't know anything about writing an outline . Yeah has that got to be in tomorrow? Yeah. Got to do a marathon tomorrow. Why? Cos he's a runner. Oh excellent,? put the history of phonetics Yeah. so little blue brochure and This is the study of papers written in the fifteenth century or something History of phonetics? I'm sorry if you're interested in this then go for it. You need a What're you doing for yours then ? I'm I'm I'm a bit confused. Your doing what? Historical linguistics? Your mad! What is it though, what's historical linguistics? Is it like what we do in Old English or not? Cos that Yeah it is. That sounds excellent. Right it's due in week three I think. Hurray. Er but as far as I'm concerned if it comes in in week four, that's fair enough, but things after that then they start to get a bit upset But I sa I said to Chris, When is it? She said, Week three. Er and I said, Give or take a few days, and she said, Yeah. So if it's inside week four then that will quite reasonable, does that sound okay? Okay has anyone had a think about what they want to do? I mean does anybody else know? sort of everything we've had so far's been pretty general. Okay if any of you wanted to you could always go out some tape recorder and people have a listen to it. But obviously if you're going to do that you'll have to do it during next week some time On the other hand I could give you a list of five topics and you could choose one. Yeah Oh yeah I mean there's five five things five things in men or women's conversation t to do and essay about. Say one about interrupting, one about topics, and one about perhaps interaction with children, one about er what Or you could even I mean if I did er I did a list of that you could even do the same one, you wouldn't have to do one each. You know you got your erm tag questions? Yeah. might not be one of the question in it as tag questions could be Oh yeah. specific. Okay er There's one title I've got written down here which I don't know if anyone's interested in. Evaluate the claim that women are more d ob Evaluate the claim that women are more observant of the prestige norms in their speech than men are. Does anyone fancy that? Let's If I write down Okay the which I've just suddenly thought of were er turn-taking and interruptions and overlap and tags and tag questions, topic selection and interaction with children, which I think I just mentioned make sure you've got them down so we can forget them. Er What? What? What have I done? Oh you weren't supposed to be able to read it. No, we can read it but it's It's just happened a lot this week. Er so yeah, you want to do some questioney tag things? Yeah. Okay, I mean just ignore that one, forget I wrote it. I mean on something like interruptions there's only so much you can say. Er yeah, which is why may be general one might be more useful dependi it depends how much Whereas if you do interaction of children you can do it here, Mhm. Oh yeah I mean if you wanted to also link that with multicultural situation or or cross cultural or comparing it with other ones I mean that's no problem. language of the different to Okay. certain dialectic language. Yeah well if you want to that then that's fine as well, I mean that Tell you what, the best thing then is can everyone put a note in my pigeon hole by Monday in other words, you've got the weekend to decide for definite. Gives us just like a provisional title of what the essay will be, on what your essay will be. Is that alright, cos then you've gone away with any ideas you've got from now which is probably none, er and then it also means that I don't have to spend next week worrying in case we get to Friday and Thursday and you're still not sure what you're doing. Is that alright? Okay if you just sort of like think of a vague title which sums up what the things are which you want to cover in the essay and if you get it to me by Monday then that that'll be quite good. You know about questions, is it questions like sort of Well tag questions and er and questions in their own rights which i I supposed seeking agreement is the idea. Or with anything which is vaguely connected with that I mean that just sort of a coverall term for it. excuse me. Okay so does everyone, think they'll gonna be able to think of something over the weekend? Okay and then if next week somet If next week everyone can have Okay w I think what you need to do f for next Thursday is For Monday to give me what you're going to do and then between Monday and Thursday, try and read anything you can about that topic. I mean you could forget this list that I gave th b that gave you, unless there's anything on it that is still relevant, but find the things yourself on that topic so that on Thursday Next Thursday you can each spend ten minutes talking about things which you've read in your topic specifically. And if anyone chooses the same topic as somebody else then you can do it together or not together or which ever. but if that can be a general idea for next week. Okay . Is everyone okay about that? book Er where you where you Which one? On on your chapter six and nine, do you know what chapter nine ? Er. Not off the top of my head, I can't remember. Was that was that theory? Was it that? I can't remember what the off the top of my head, no. chapter six is,. Right, er as questions lead to shouting and then crawling back to his Then a little bit about language and an experiment that they did . Right, sounds like there's a bit on topics in there so it might be worth having a look at anyway. Monday sixteenth May Monday nineteen eighty three. Mr Tommy Inverness. Can I ask firstly Mr when you were born? August the sixth nineteen twenty nine. Now was this in Tormore? In Tormore House er by Lochassynt. In Sutherland ? In Sutherland. That's correct. And how long were you in fact there? Well up until the time I would be about eight years old when my father decided there was a change in the estate then and it was off to Argyllshire Dalmally that Sir Douglas and Lady as she was then decided to go and wanted my father to come with him. But him being from up there and my mother also and their people were still alive which was my grandparents on both sides they were very reluctant to sort of go. But when a job came he he would be wanting a diff different shooting ground in in Argyllshire comparison to the hard rocks of Sutherland. Mm. Pine pastures green to the tops of Ben Dorain and and up Black Mount where the Craig estate took it was it was in their estate. So therefore my father was very keen to go too. Mm. And that's how we decided to go. So Dalmally I should safely say was my first schooling. Even though I was about eight and a half. Mm. Now your father was the the stocker at Tormore is that right ? Yes he was the stocker at Tormore. Who was he employed with then? Well the estate er er er the Duke of Sutherland had the whole of Assynt and then h General Stewart who was born in Nedd and worked and made his fortune if it was as you would say in Canada on the C P R. Canadian Pacific Railways and he was able to take a lot of people from the place he was born in out to Canada. Mm. What d'ya recall of your early days with your father at Tormore? Pardon? What d'ya recall of your early days at Tormore with your father? Well he was a very active man my word he would soon go right from the house to the top of as you would say because we had sheep then. And if he saw a sheep that shouldn't be where they were and the gentry about to come within days he would soon get them down. Mm. Without a collie dog. And well I remember hearing about it and and saw it probably as I grew up myself. So he was and it had it's Tormore House was really a lovely place. Did the did the gentry come fairly frequently to the estate? Yes. Oh they came up with their servants all servants up from the south by train to Inverness and then a charabanc or vehicle of such that was in it then because it was only metal roads we had then. But they were good metal roads that took all the traffic. Well I remember at that time the steam roller that was just doing the road outside Tormore House and many's the day I was trying to get on it with a very good friend of ours that's now dead. A Hugh . No relation but a great friend of ours. He was a steam roller driver. Mm. And were the gentry in er Lochassynt Lodge or was it Tormore? No Lochassynt Lodge. That's right Lochassynt that's right. And my mother er went to help them in the lodge in the season time also. Fr from that time can you recall any incidents which er your father may have mentioned to you even as a young boy? Well Or stories about the the people that were there or Well passers by? ah well yes the passers by will will remember being on the road side the famous tramp. Aha. The gentleman of the road. My word and me just as a little boy of eight years. I was no fear of being frightened of them because they were part of the establishment. And well did the gentry know that too. You mentioned that you were perhaps more scared of er ministers. Well yeah ministers er. When I think of it nowadays and I see children so very going round to the various churches that when people used to say about ministers well. When you heard there was a minister coming I was just afraid and looking to see would you see that dark black clothed individual coming. And even that seemed a but thinking of the old tramp and he was in a a sort of all belaggered looking way. My word but you weren't frightened of him because you were told that he was an old man and one of the road men of the road. And there was no fright to be taken from him. Is it correct to to say that the tramps actually used to make a special point of coming to to see your father ? Oh yes. Made a special point of coming there because they knew my mother would give them a bowl of soup or what was ever on. She was baking fresh scones hot cakes anything that was going. And my word they enjoyed it well. They wouldn't come in they wouldn't come into the porch even. They would sit outside wait in that days we had a seat out in the and even if was a seat for sitting outside they would sit on their own way or on a rock. No they just had their own way of life and you wouldn't change it and they had stories to my father. They would tell sing where they came from and who they saw and all the way up they came. And they would be looking for a bed for the night and it would be in the old hay shed that we would put them but there wouldn't be a problem. It was in the winter time so it was full of hay but they would be very careful and we would ask them that they had no matches in case er there was no cigarettes much and that but pipes they were pipe smokers. Old clay pipes with black twist. But they would soon tell that they would have their before they would go to bed and thanks er very much when getting the bed and you could er vouch for that they would never. But the odd one yes we saw the odd one but they were very odd. Aye they were very odd. Y you refer to them as mile stone inspectors. Mile stone inspectors and gentlemen of the road. Mm. And there's a story about the late Duke of Portland when he was travelling up to to estate where his lodge was. There was many's a tramp that would have taken the A nine then but this one in particular and he was very very fond of him and he would ask when he was around to that he would get over to see him. And when that poor tramp perished out on the roadside one severe winter or spring time the Duke found out where it was and to this very day there's a little mound and a stone put on it. That was the er Lord of Caithness I think Tommy that the stone was. Yes yes that I'm referring to yes. The Lord of Caithness. I cos I can't picture another stone you know on any other roadsides and I've been on plenty that and I travel and no and I can never know of another st stone that was put up to a tramp. Anywhere in the north as far as I know. But that one was and I heard a year ago but I never saw it till the bus driver I went with some years ago up to John O'Groats. Mm. And going up to to John O'Groats and right into past Castle May where the Queen Mother has and into the church where sh where the royalty goes when they're living up in up in Castle May At er well er Johnnie Groat is buried there too. There's many a person Johnnie Groat to my name. From these young days that you spent in Tormore can you recall how the tramps actually looked? Oh they they How would you describe them? Erm the tramps? Well fearsome looking wild looking as you would say it now. But but the very opposite to what people would er er th think of them as regards people now. And that's ordinary people. But but they looked wild because they would have long hair beards a and and all oh my word they were wild looking but er. And probably it was cold weather they would have two or three coats er you know. And jackets probably below and their little bag of stuff. Whatever they were carrying. They they generally came all year round? Yes oh yes generally came. Ah but they always watched th they would be in some place over bad storms you know. Er er er you know if there was a bad storm somebody would oh you better stay here today too again and he might be there three or four days. So he would still stay there because he was told about the weather. And he would know himself. Mm. You see it's not what er anybody else would say that it was good weather. He they knew that they had a great sense of the weather themselves after being out in it. Did they ever mention to you or your father that they in fact got caught out by the weather? Oh well sometimes yes they would be very wet when they would come. And when they would offer to no no they wouldn't they would have their own way of drying it in in their bags they would have another clean or or you would say clothes to put on but we never ever heard of them doing a washing . Mm. Or whatever. Well they would be discarded. It's it's like I I better not say say this but Irishmen over that when when I when I used to work with Irishmen my word they was good Irishmen. Very good friends of mine. But they would work they would never see them with dungarees. They came with a good suit on and they would go to work with a suit double breasted and then and they would work there and make a lot of money and when the next thing they would do they would hit into town and get all rigged out and then that was them from top to bottom from their hat right to their feet and then they were hitting the road then. Yes I could say that that's true about Irishmen. Mm. The the tramps never mentioned some of the places they were actually forced to stay whether it was under a road bridge or? Oh oh yes they yes they would stay under a road bridge too because you would see the er er if you would look a a bridge and they would say oh there's a tramp there's a place there if you could tell me and you would see the rocks put up and where the bed was always above water level oh yes. Mm. Below the certain bridges. Mm. Depending how far away a house you see was and how they would be. But never two of them meet together. We we you never know that. They would be always er passing. They didn't go round like that they were very loners as you would say. And what happened say They would never were there ever occasions when there was one or more in your hay loft? No no I don't think ever I can remember. I th well I think er there was once or something but he he passed he didn't know that this er was so then they passed on. Mm. You see one stayed but he was there before him and the other one carried on. No they would never they would never blend together. Mm. Like whiskies blend . No no they would never. They were they were very very fine people. And and the tinkers that came there. Mhm. Er wouldn't want to but from from there was there was one lot. And there were and the women folk would have their haberdashery and the men were tin smiths. They would make pails and basins like you were being requiring in your sc er scullery or in the milk house as you would keep milk there. So they were all and very industrious looking. But they had for the winter time they their houses to go to. Mm. And they were just coming round in the summer. Mm. And their horses and my word they fairly looked after their animals mhm. Did the crofting people have any special name for the the tinkers? Not really no. You've never heard the term summer walker? Er er no no I could never say that. Or mystery folk or? Er well Celts. as the years came on they were beginning to get mystery fo folk but er not in my time. Well that sort of people that was coming. If ones came as in little wee pi pickups we called them the little lorry things you would sort of keep your eye very much because you didn't know they were looking for scrap and if you told them you had nothing they might go away with your iron gates or something. This was during the mid thirties? Oh yes I would say that yes that was coming more that way yeah yeah. Coming more that How about the individual er tramps? Did you ever have bye-names for these characters? Well th th there was one Joe Wrench. Er but I don't know what's that. But somebody so told me aye and I said that was a funny name or was it else's then. Well I said I remember a man called Joe Wrench and but er oh I wouldn't er but one said oh Joe Wrench is very black looking. Well the bugger is just coming on and he was cleaning the car down hosing her car so he says I turned the hose on him. Well the hose landed on him alright but it landed on his parcel and it the whole thing fell out on the road. So there was a bit of Mm. among the few people that saw that happening. But er he was quite a character the man that did that. Did you ever have an opportunity to to see what the tramps actually carried with them? No well I could never say I I was kept well away out of the but my father probably might have seen Mm. in his bag. Well I think it would be a change it's when they're when they're when they're jacket would be wet they would have another Mm. jacket in the bag. So whatever he and if he was dumping anything oh er er they would ask the father said er just er to dump that. They wouldn't be left with a whole pile of stuff or er. No oh no they or they would dump it in a place where nobody would see it you see. And when they were coming along Lochassynt were they making for anywhere in particular? We we well er er see they were on their rounds and then they'd be going round by Nedd and and probably Scourie they were just doing their circular. Aye they had their places for. Yes it's amazing aye. And did you have ever a chance to gain some sort of insight into their backgrounds? Who they were in fact? Where they'd come from? On some cases yes because I was always told this man he that used to come and he was so clean looking and that he was a barber. Well that er er er an Englishman that he was trained as a hairdresser. As a man's hairdresser. But somebody er whatever he no he didn't carry anything to to do that no. But that's what he's he told you? Oh yes but he told somebody that he was a hairdresser. And you would see that they were very some of them intellectual people. Mm. Too and who knows how they went to the road. Mm. Did they fail in their exams or something or went to drink or. It's said nowadays about drink but I don't know. They they were quite er learned men they weren't numskulls you know. Mm. So something just peculiar at that very time put them to the. Did they ever do any form of casual work? S some of them did yes if they came in the springtime and then in the ar in in the harvest time. Yes oh some would w w work but some wouldn't. Er and if if they would work they didn't want money for it but they would stay a while with you so that they would get their bed for the night and they would get their grub. Mm. What type of work did they ? Well they would take in er er er they would er er and they would put hoe potatoes you see when that was coming on that time. And they would help to lift potatoes and they would er stack corn and hay. Oh yes and that's those only that would do it but you wouldn't get the ordinary man taking any he would just be on his rounds. And you wouldn't say oh I think it's going to be wet today John you better stay. Not him his his mind was made up on going and that was it. And were you visited by the peddler the pack-man character Yes. who sold goods Oh oh yes er er who who sold. Er there was one chappie that er erm I can remember of him and he had a suitcase and well he had a shaving soap I suppose cos people used soap then with your shaving brush and and that and proper shaving brush and razor blades probably that quite. Yes but I remember right a . So it was things that wasn't too heavy to carry but things that was always needed in a house and that you could run out of. When we were er were living all on the road so we were expecting to be supplied by vans. Mm. And my word there was plenty of vans in them days. Both getting butcher meat. What even in the thirties? Yes oh yes er er when we had a wee baker's van coming up from the Nedd to Lochassynt when when Lochassynt Lodge you see. So these people that had little private shops in them days did well because when the people came to the lodges it all the commodities were bought to as well as them. It's not like nowadays when people has big fridges Mm. buy their stuff away down south and take it. But no they would buy it there aye . So provisions were bought fairly regularly in those days. There wasn't the same er bulk buying that you see nowadays ? No no there wasn't the same. But only well we would get it buy it in bulk ourselves supplied by er Hamiltons of Glasgow Mm. and it would be coming on the steamer McBrayne's steamer and Up to Lochinver? Yes to Lochinver yes and that same steamer would be calling in Kinlochbervie and all the villages and this traveller for Hamiltons would be going round beforehand and you would be getting a hundred weight of sugar and tea it would be in a big tea box er er probably er er Ceylon coming from Ceylon but you the whole or you could buy a small quarter. But oh yes you would buy all that stuff in bulk. Mm. But that stuff that was in bulk but you would never er no perishables no peri Mm. Can you recall in those days Tommy how people kept perishables? Well er er there were it was big caverns that'd be underground. If there was a big bank at the back of the house they would have a hole just dug out and er built up with flagstones Mm. and therefore it was when when you would go in there it was quite cool. Mm. Even in the Summer? Well wonderfully cool. They would they would watch where they would where they would excavate this thing out Mm. from. But yes it was wonderfully cool. Mm. And the produce was salmon ? And the prod it was it was sort of kept as within a reason of time of course it wouldn't. But er and of course stuff was salted. Venison Venison of course. you you buy er salt it away in barrels in boxes and and work on it until it was through. Now was that your father's own particular task the the salting of the venison? Oh oh oh n no really I can't say that. Er we only probably did it when ourselves we got venison beforehand on the last shooting and to keep. But no no er there was so many hinds having to be shot in the winter time and and and it would be sent away you see. But not away what they're doing now or but it'd be sent down to their premises down in the in the shooting lodges in the south. Mm. And that and to their friends. And there would be always a beast or two cut up for to be given to the village. Mm. Oh yes that was one thing. I always remember that. So where did the venison actually go to? Well it well ah but ah but they never they never killed it in that quantity as they're doing it now. Mm. To make money. No no there was no money made of it. It was just for their for their own use. Mm. And haunches of venison that was the best part in the they would be sent away to themselves the haunches. But the other parts with the ribs and all that'd be cut up given to the and the lodge itself for the. And all the estate men first of all would get everything. And all the crofters then that was paying rent. In those days how many people were actually involved on the estate? Well there was a lot of people involved on the estate because they had to repair paths. They had to keep the river streams all flowing and if there was any deluge of rain and stones they would have to keep all the pools in good order and they would The pools? Yes the pools. That's the salmon pools Mm. you see. And they would have barriers going out so that they could so that the gentry could go out to stand on that ladies and men. To cross the the Yes just yes you see the streams . it still on the the rivers. But now it's made of stonework or or concrete. Mm. Now and that cos that's the only thing that could stand Mhm. to the weather. But er that's the way. And the and the paths repairing at the riverside and all the bushes round the lodge. And the gardener there was always a permanent gardener but he was he had enough to do but the estate men would be sent up to clear that. And painters and joiners they would have themselves. All self-contained? Yes self-contained yes. There'd be a joiner and he'd be engaged in a Erm what, what we do today is to way go back over some of the ideas about land reform and then carry them through to the ninety fifty er Agrarian Reform Bill. Erm what we've been looking at is the process of land reform. Tt and we're obviously looking at a process of land reform which has, has undergone a number of changes and I think we, we've begun to see some of the influences on those changes and particularly over the, the last week or so the this has . Tt er and i in a sense there's kind of been an upward trend in terms of progression through that, that reform but within that there have obviously been a number of and in a sense what we've been coming to terms with is, is what has been causing those, those variations, those changes in that policy. Tt and I think we've identified in a number of different factors erm er behind that, that trend and that erm i in a sense there's, there's the kind of distinction between the ideological approach and the pragmatic approach in that we, we've seen there is a, I think a, a broad ideological impetus behind the reform in the sense that there is this long-term commitment to overthrowing feudalism. There is this commitment to overthrowing feudalism through class struggle and there is I think this vision that under new society will be more egalitarian, not completely egalitarian I think there is, there is an attempt to move in that direction for a set of ideological reasons. But we've also seen that the various,th that there is a whole range of, of practical day to day issues which have come up which have, have like distorted a s a straightforward progression along those ideological lines tt and in particular over the last we, we've, we've identified the political and military factors erm which have been relevant there and the political factors during the Japanese war, the a need to form a united front, a need to moderate policy and then, over the course of nineteen forty six, forty seven, the need to move in a more radical direction, to go back to land reform and, and land reform a scale in terms of absolute egalitarianism because that was seen as the way of, of mobilizing mass peasant support, particularly amongst the poor, most quickly. So one of the influences on, on the progress of land reform is, is this interaction between ideology and pragmatism. Perhaps er er another way of looking at this would be to see it in terms of rightist deviations and leftist deviations and one might see erm the er the moderate policies er of thirty seven to forty nine i in a sense as being erm a rightist deviation, one might see forty six forty seven as being leftist deviations and the left is seeking to overcome rightist deviations, the right seeking to overcome leftist deviations and you've got some kind of oscillation between the two. Tt so that th the er there's that aspect to it, which I think er complements rather than contradicts the, the ideological pragmatism one. Another way of looking at this might be to say in a sense there are there are two bits, one is identifying where we are now and identifying in relation to both ideological position and in terms of, of the practical realities, both in terms of rightist and leftist deviations, where we want to be. So in any one point in time the movement is going to depend on identifying exactly where you are at the moment in terms of any of the cycles and where it is you want to get to in relation to, to a particular situation facing you. So I think there are, there are all those kind of bits which are there in terms of the understanding of, of where policy was and where it was going. Tt now if we just take that, that latter point up for a minute we can look in early nineteen forty eight where we are,wh where the land reform process had taken the Communist Party tt and then we could begin to look forward to where policy was going to go from there in terms of the military, political, economic, ideological future and what I'm going to do today to, to begin with anyway is, is to just consider where we are and where it is we're gonna go and in a sense we could, it might be helpful to, to put ourselves back in a position of being the central committee again. Now what, what was emerging in the end of last week's discussion was that there's been the agrarian land law,land law of er October nineteen forty seven, absolute egalitarianism and a recognition certainly by the spring of nineteen forty eight that that had overstepped the mark at least in terms of its implementation in that it had in particular led to the encroachment of middle peasant and that that had had adverse consequences in terms of maybe economic output, certainly in terms of mobilization, certainly in terms of, of political effect on, on the middle peasant and therefore there had to be the, the correcting bit to this and that correction comes either very late forty seven but particularly early nineteen forty eight when the excesses of the, the campaigns and excesses against the middle peasants have to be, be corrected and there are very clear statements from Mao that the middle peasant must not be encroached upon. Perhaps a bit more than that, the old nineteen thirty three class differentiation documents are reissued and they are reissued together with the supplements which we saw came out in the autumn of nineteen thirty three which and, and those supplements where then extended to allow the middle peasant to er up to twenty five, on some of the readings up to thirty percent, of his income from exploitation. So it's not just the, the standard middle peasant who is being protected, it is if you like the well to do middle peasant who's being protected. So there is, there is this very clear and I think very substantial protection for the middle peasant. Over and above that, Mao is is in a sense coming up with, with a new set of proposals. He he's arguing I think on a basis of, of the experience of the past few years that the situation now in China was a, was a rather variable one, that land reform had proceeded at different rates in different areas and because areas where different that had to be taken into account and Mao explicitly was going back to the idea that in the newly liberated areas the policy would be one of rent reduction, interest rate reduction and that rent and interest rate reduction had to be established for some time until the position had consolidated around rent reduction, around interest rate reduction and once that had happened you would then be able to go into land reform itself. In a sense Mao is, is adopting very much the position that he seems to have taken erm in nineteen forty five when he's, he's looking forward to land return but saying at the moment our policy of rent reduction, interest rate reduction will continue and at some stage we will then be able to move on into, to that reform. So there's a clear policy for, for newly liberated areas. As far as the old liberated areas were concerned, there was going to be a kind of land investigation again. There would be a reassessment of how the land reform process had worked. Where it was found that middle peasants had been encroached upon, where it was found that middle peasants had been dispossessed erm that position would be rectified and that would be given back to middle peasants. So very different policies for the old and new liberated areas. And in a sense Mao is saying that it's, it's not right to go straight for land reform, you, you've got to go for this policy of rent reduction, interest rate reduction first. And alongside this went a much stronger wash your face campaign and the names of the , names of Party members were published. Erm Mao was worried that as,i in the course of the, the latter stages of directive and the there had been abuses of the system by Party members and that had led to the Party getting a bad name with the peasants and the way to rectify that was to publish the Communist Party membership so everybody in the village would know who was a Communist Party member and they would be able to see, Mao believed, that on the whole Party members had behaved properly, they hadn't exploited the situation for their own advantage and where they have they would be, there would be a with them to correct. Now that I think is, is the position as of the spring of nineteen forty Can I just stop there for a minute er er is this the best any, any points anything anybody would like to add to this? Did you call it wash your fact sort of? Mm. Yes I mean it, it can be, I think it can be . It's not something which is introduced for the first time in nineteen forty eight but, but there is erm sort of another round of it erm and sort of the new dimension is that the, everybody's name is published because until then you, you didn't er you didn't know who the Party members were. Mm. Right. Now we need to decide where to go from here. Now I, I, I er our, our, in a sense our policy now is that we're going to sort of readjust the policy in, in the north . As we go into the south we are just going to conduct a rent reduction, interest reduction campaign and we, we will then aim to consolidate that position and at some stage we will then move forward into land reform again, but to do that we will probably need a new land law because we're recognizing the old agrarian land law is, is inappropriate,absolute egalitarianism is now dead in a sense of as erm it's sort of saying that, that as Mao is arguing in May forty eight, May forty eight that absolute egalitarianism is wrong. So, so, so that bit of it we've, we've moved forward . Er are you happy with this idea that, that sort of the immediate future in the newly liberated areas is, is just rent reduction, interest rate reduction, consolidate that and then move on? Do does this seem to be the right policy? It would have more affect in the south on the moderate side erm it would, would stand a better chance than Yes, right. and as a starting point Yes. and there's more of a justified presence. So that it, it would actually fit the conditions in the south in terms that we are, you're moving into an area of, of higher tenancy and therefore rent reduction, interest rate reduction is, would have a significant effect. Right. you say this rent reduction? Oh cos I, I thought they erm they had the three different areas Mm but erm I thought forty eight, areas where and carry out Yes, I, I think that was that was still when the I think that was still in a sense under the auspices of the old agrarian er of the of forty seven was still being given by . Erm I think bro broadly, certainly by the time you've got through to the later spring th th there is y yes I mean i in a sense there are sort of three areas if you like but, but very broadly the areas which had not been taken over yet i is very much a slower process of consolidation and then you wait for the next rule. Er you're happy with this, this seems okay in terms of policy Doesn't it seem slightly odd though? In the sense that, in a way going on from what I was saying on the face of it south China ought to be the area where land reform will be easiest to achieve in the sense that here you've got a society which is landlord dominated, heavily landlord dominated and therefore w where one would expect that the antagonism, antagonisms between landlords and tenants would be at their greatest. I in, in the north you've got a higher proportion of owner-occupiers and you perhaps haven't got the same degree of landlord exploitation, you might, I think one might argue from, from what we said earlier that in the north you've got a s a slightly more paternalistic landlord, it's, it, there's less, less absentee landlordism landlords were more likely to have been behaving within the confines of moral economy wouldn't, wouldn't have been tt erm reducing rents, it was done on a much more, more personal sort of scale. You move into the south which is the area where landlord exploitation might have been at its most intense, where you would expect antagonisms to be greatest, where one would expect that peasants would be actually demanding land reform and, and indeed if you, you go back to, to the you've clearly got that almost spontaneous underlying radicalism because of the, the intense landlord exploitation. What we're saying on the whole is that we, we are moving south erm militarily we, we now control most of north China, we begin to move on to the into areas of very high tenancy where landlordism was thought to be at its extreme but all we're doing is reducing rents and interest rents. I think if, if they adopted a policy of erm of struggle last time, I mean they would get to land reform indirectly but I don't think you can erm initiate it from the Party as such like because that causes all sorts of problems through definitions and things like that but yeah I think right but I think the way of analyzing is through just saying you, what are your grievances and then ultimately that will result in landlords being driven out. Right. So they've learnt that they can't implement land reform unless they've got the support of the popular masses and it's got to come from them cos ultimately they, they're pursuing land reform in order to get the peasant support and if that's not what they want there's no point in just erm imposing it on them. You've got to, the peasants have got to be demanding it themselves. Alright, so what you've learnt from the experience in North China is that you are actually better off to go in fairly gently Mm. and begin the process and then allow the peasants to kind of take it over, to become involved, to become vocal and to become activated. And you've got to educate the masses and perhaps instil erm more revolutionaries, sort of a more, a culture that actually sees that they're not gonna gain just material benefits but how that this is in order to advance society forward. Mm. Yes and take control of them in terms of direction and so on. Yes. Mm. in a sense though you're putting a lot more emphasis on the Party. You're saying it's the, it's the, it's the Party that, that erm mobilizes them, there is, there is actually very little spontaneous revolutionary charge within the peasantry. That, that you've got to create it for them. I mean by just doing this sort of settling of accounts is that creating it for them? Er I mean is that creating a sparkle? I think I mean it's a, it's a very small sparkle just saying now's a chance to erm Is, isn't the idea that most likely to make people believe that they can achieve a certain thing and let them get up and do it and erm so that the Party's role is in the initial stage fostering as much mobilization Yes. creating a common consciousness and then let the peasants go with that. Not do actually do the land reform themselves, but to create the conditions whereby they can believe in themselves. Right. So land reform is, is, and this will be very counter to nineteen forty seven, land re land reform is, is not now the means of mobilizing the masses, you have to mobilize the masses for land reform. And this rent reduction, interest rate reduction together with the kind of settling accounts procedure which presumably will come out of this is the means by which you mobilize the masses and once you've got them mobilized, you can then move on to land reform. But it's, it's premature to go for land reform straight away. Yeah. I, I bring up this point about the masses being were the masses revolutionary or not Yeah. and I remember doing my first, one of my first essays erm saying that I didn't think they were and all that they were erm was the fact that er er of and you said to me at the end that's fine as far you've argued it but I think you'll change your views as you go on and I don't know if I have. Right . So erm I don't whether or not I s I still don't think they were ultimately revolutionary, I think they were just erm people who they think were exploiting them at the time sort of erm you know in a certain situation Just because they weren't revolutionary doesn't mean that they didn't have the potential to become revolutionary I know. Sure. Yeah. and erm it was But they di didn't have the idea of revolution in themselves, they didn't have the idea of overthrowing the landlords themselves. But maybe cos there was no opportunity, they didn't see there to be I mean like they didn't know any better but as soon as, I mean things are rapidly changing they're given the opportunity to erm I mean through the struggles to actually take charge of the conditions and to gain so some material and perhaps there was beginnings of them seeing that well perhaps we ought to look more to this sub-culture and to erm Well I mean it's change their values. it's very Party initiated isn't it? The Party's giving putting these ideas into their heads of erm creating a society in which But then the peasants surely should be able to choose to accept or reject what the Party is trying to instil in a way. Yeah. But I mean it's the idea, the idea is coming, is not coming from themselves, it's coming from the Party that, that er that you can create a system without landlords. It has to though because if in the pa if they've had this long-term sort of culture for all this time they need to be given ideas but essentially if their traditional values were so strong they would have rejected what the Communist Party was trying to say, but because they accepted it it meant they ha they did actually have the potential to be revolutionary. And going on from that surely we argue that the May the fourth directive came about or certainly was, was put out as this is what the peasants three times the peasants had demanded land return I E they were in advance of the Party, they were more radical, they, they were, in a way they were saying look this, this rent reduction is not enough we want a much stronger programme, we actually want the land reform. And that's what the directive says? Yes. Well maybe they but that's, that's entirely logical the, the more you argue for this economy, and the more you argue no this is, this really is how the peasant felt and he that the peasant really erm didn't have any ideas of changing society at that of the landlord system the more I assume that one would support this kind of rent reduction, interest rate reduction campaign which allows you to slowly build up that mobilization which is necessary. The,th th th the o the other thing that is I think, I think there is something in this, is that there was, at least within some sections of the peasantry, erm er a, a kind of erm revolutionary zeal which they were building themselves and they were wanting to go beyond the Party. And, and that would derive from cases where landlord exploitation was particularly severe and therefore peasants were saying no rent reduction, interest rate reduction is not enough, we want to go further than that now. And I think there is that element there. Mm. And you think that's not just a sort of relatively recent phenomenon in the sense of you know, the sort of mid nineteen thirties or you think it's always been there? You know just an idea Yeah whether or not you whether or not you think it's been induced by the fact that, that they've heard what happened in and they think that they can start doing that as opposed to ch as opposed to just saying we're going to exist by creating sure, there may be some thinking that, there may also though be er if you move through to the forties you're,y you're twenty years on from the nineteen twenties, you, you've had and you've had deterioration in agricultural conditions er as, as we've seen you've got erm increasing landlord absenteeism, you, you've got a downward, an upward pressure on rent in terms of how much was having to be paid in real terms, all of those things might have come together to, to, to push the peasant over and to push him outside . It it's it's a possibility Mm. erm I, I don't I, I would be a little unhappy saying the peasant still, in the nineteen forties, was st totally still bound by foreign economy Mm. but clearly there, there is an element of that, there is an element that they'd gone beyond it that's that that bit is difficult to define and quantify. What was erm how, how badly was the south by affected by the Japanese, I mean what were the peasants likely to have gone through in the last few years? Erm they would not have gone through the same sort of occupation. Erm the Japanese presence in the south was, was more just along the coast, they, they, they'd taken the trading ports erm and they had some of the interior but on, on the whole south China had not been dominated by the Japanese,th th th their base was very much the north China plain and, and spreading across towards the communist areas . I mean they cut in through Manchuria down the north to, to, across to north China plain, had taken the cities on the eastern seaboard which was what they wanted, I mean th th they really wasn't any point in controlling the rural south, it would have taken so many troops, so much administration if they'd that then they had everything they wanted from the trading ports so there wasn't that Japanese presence and so the clearly was different. Mm. So they're not trying to, you know, get themselves back together again having erm you know, the Japanese having left and, you know the villages have been razed and all that sort of stuff? Er there would have been some cases where that had happened erm and clearly the nationalists had withdrawn from most of southern China into, into south west China and therefore erm th th there'd been er and there was quite a lot of fighting going, still going across south China so i it's not quite the same . the nationalists don't have so much of hold now over the south. Er they do after, yes th the, the nationalists had moved back across the south after nineteen forty five erm th th they'd, they'd retreated from the Japanese progressively after nineteen forty one and abandoned Shanghai and etcetera. They now moved back, in sympathy with the Japanese surrender, they moved back and the nationalists took Shanghai and really controlled the whole of, of south China again so that the, the old landlord system had been re-established. Sorry you were going to say something. Erm no what coming out of this is that how that although one would assume in the south that the peasants ought to be more revolutionary, in actual fact it's the reverse and why is this happening, is it because of the fact that the Communist Party were in the n that maybe essentially that the peasants in China er were reactionary and worked within the confines of moral economy, but because of the presence of the Communist Party in the north they became more revolutionary and that's sort of suggested by the success of land reform there and the fact that how, that they can't implement it in the south. Or is it because there's a different culture in the north and south because the, the two parts of China are very different, so you don't know whether it's the Communist Party that's determining this difference or whether it's just because of a difference of culture there. And it's, it's difficult for us to tell because we don't have that many regional studies to be able to know exactly what it was that was determining these differences of values. Yes, but there might be some important differences that we would want to bring up, which we, we perhaps could take a bit further. Erm there might for example be economic differences. Now tt if you look at it this way,le let's suppose that the Communist Party was successful in its military campaign and it, it takes military control of south China, which it was beginning to then, and did up to nineteen forty eight could you, and therefore its political position is becoming increasingly secure erm and the there was no major military threat to land reform. There was no reason in terms of a a, a military position why you shouldn't have introduced land reform in, in the way that going through and you are moving into an area where as we've seen landlordism was at its and peasant antagonism ought to have been greatest and therefore you on the face of it it seems surprising doesn't it that land reforms didn't take place immediately, or they weren't attempting land reform to take place immediately. I mean if, if, if you were looking from outside and you were going to choose an area that you were going introduce land reform you would choose south China wouldn't you? Now is, is the fact that they don't do that, they still go for this rent and interest rate reduction is it because of the experience of the north, they found that the best way in the north was to go for rent reduction, interest rate reduction and then go on, and they were simply taking that experience into the south, but taking it into a different area where it was no longer necessary or appropriate? Mm. It's not such a pragmatic thing then because one of things you said earlier on you said when you do become very radical erm it's, the distinctions between become blurred Mm. that erm one of the most important things is to keep up your production Right. and therefore if you're gonna er introduce this radical land reform straight away, I mean say there is no landlord but there's a peasant, or I mean unless the Party's ac completely active Mm. and they're gonna get hit. Right. And basically what they need to do is create peasant economy to increase production as they learn from the land. Ah right. So if you go too radical you're gonna hit production, and you're gonna step back which Right, and are you beginning to say that production is coming to be a more important criteria now? Yeah I think so. Well it certainly has but there's still kind of elements of I think especially when they find out that there's not much land to go round as they ash assumed. assume that if you give them a population that owned seventy eight percent of the land and find out fifty percent of the land , then you, you know, you can't just give land, everyone's not just gonna have land, you have to increase production to make everyone better off. Mm. Right. So whereas in the north the, in a sense the, the main criteria was mobilization as you're moving south in the new situation a new criteria is, is production. you need, you need, you need mobilization you need Yeah. support, but then even more you need production. Yeah. Right. There's also another problem with land reform in I can't really see how they could implement land reform without reverting to similar sorts of they used in which is defining class distinctions and the chaos that that causes and the problems it causes erm it is almost as if , if you go back to erm settling of accounts Mm. okay you're erm you're getting rid of your communist ideas you're finding a smoother way to getting erm to achieving a similar sorts of effects hit the top end get a cross-section o of, but you still get the same, ultimately the same sorts of results erm by, by erm by adopting that policy whereas if you go for trying to draw distinctions, you end up erm Right so it's, yes, so, so, so the danger is, is chaos and the movement gets out of hand and Right. One way around that might be then to have enough cadres on the ground in order to, to do it properly. I mean even, in a sense you, you, you're worried about the excesses. Yeah. But also the administration of and trying to rectify the Right. Right. S so the, the more you've got, the less that is Yeah the, the less but I still think there's a fundamental problem with drawing the distinction Right. Right. Fine. Erm but maybe this, this issue is, is, could be important in the sense that you, you've got tt er if you take China as a whole you've probably got well in excess of a million villages erm you've probably got a denser population in the south than the north so you've got more than half a million villages in the south okay, and if you're going to conduct land reform you've got to have an effective land reform team to go into each of those villages. Erm so you, you, and you, you're looking of, of land reform teams of four, five members so you're, you're looking at somewhere between two and three million cadres to go into the villages. And you've got two or three million cadres, trained cadres who know what they're doing, are experienced, who knows what the south is who know what the south is like. So that there, there may be a, an important personnel problem th th that you realize that well okay the option of going for land reform is, is there but you're saying er it's likely trouble my experience of the past is that, that radical land reform is, is disruptive it could affect production, it could get out of hand, it could alienate people in order to control them we need a lot cadres on the ground and we haven't got them. Well even if you did have them would it, would it definitely be for the better? I mean they were, they were still so corruptible. Or had that changed were they, were they mo more educated now and less corruptible? Who? The cadres. The cadres. Because to some extent erm Yeah. the rightist and leftist deviations were, were because of them. Yes. Er so you would you would need a very heavy rectification programme to sh to ensure, not just that you had enough cadres, but that the cadres were going in with, with the right attitudes. Erm it, that would take time, I mean it's,th that would be very difficult to control. Yeah. You're right so it's, so it's not just in terms of the number of the cadre, it's the quality of the cadre, and, and you can't just erm er I mean you can't just pick, you can't you've gotta educate them, create them etcetera, yeah. In applying that how that they didn't implement land reform because it wasn't viable but if erm another way of looking at it is that how the Communist Party no longer saw land reform as the best way, means of achieving greater Yes. egalitarianism and that how that increased production was seen as the you know, priority, and so perhaps they would want to just I mean it might seem appear that they were changing their policy to a more moderate land reform but this was not an end in itself it was a means to an end in order to increase production which would benefit the population as a whole, so it's, they still had the same goal Yeah. which is to achieve greater equality but you're having different means to achieve that. Right. It, it, it's a different means to an end, it's a much slower means to an end Mm. in the, in the sense that i if, if you look,i if you adopt a sort of retrospective view, I E if you look back from say anything after nineteen forty nine and you say look, hold on erm this was the final stage of the revolution. The communists had never been in a better position than they were in in, in nineteen forty eight, the civil war was, was clearly going in their favour erm they were to achieve power within eighteen months and at precisely the point where they had everything going for them, they are adopting the most moderate policy. If there was any time when radical land reform would have succeeded, it was during nineteen forty eight to nineteen forty nine, and it's precisely that time looking into an area which would seem to be the most favourable for radical land reform, they have not taken that opportunity. how much control did they have over ? Well they're getting increasing control, increasing control but not and er so yo what you're saying is that, is that even if, if you go back to the reality of nineteen forty eight, actually they didn't realize they were going to get that control as quickly. they, they were seeing as being an, a longer drawn out struggle Mm. not, which, one which would not be over in a year and a half. I mean we've, I mean at that point you've got that was the point where you've got the massive United States aid coming in erm you, you've got erm United States equipping China with all enormous fire power, sending tanks in etcetera, I mean this was the beginning of, of the realization of the United States that, that the communists were a threat and they didn't like it and they, they were putting massive ai aid erm and, and that there was all that United States war machine erm And this, this other thing as well about erm which is obviously and erm I think what they had in mind was that before you start doing anything radical, before you start having any real land reform at all, you have to ensure that you really have control of that area, he's had this Yes, right. experience of trying to, trying to put through land reform in erm areas which then led to just incredibly bad Yes. cos all the sort of people communists they're all just full of hot air and just really get lost Right. the important lessons they learnt cos at first they thought land reform would enable them to achieve mass mobilization Yes. but now they realize that however you need to have mass mobilization in order to have successful land reform Right. Right. and so land reform was no longer seen as a means to achieve their end that they that and that it wasn't the best policy to consolidate power, it was you needed to have the mass support there first so that's why land reform was no longer seen as their goal so they didn't take it up at this point when one would expect them to pursue it. It's, well it's still a goal but it's one step off? Yeah. Right. So, so there are two bits, there's, one is th that you need the the, the, the evidence from the north is that you need mobilization in order to get land reform and the way to get mobilization is rent reduction, interest rate reduction and then sort of the, the struggle meetings and that provides the activism to go to land reforms and the other bit is, is the military one,th that you've learned that if you're going to go through with land reform and keep the support, you've got to make sure you've got your military security first. Erm and because in, even in nineteen forty eight, you couldn't guarantee that you were better off to, to play it cautiously. If you put the two together erm you i it becomes understandable why they, they adopted these policies to the south, even though sort of from what happened the first time particularly in a retrospective way, the expectation would be you would, this would be the are where you would go for land reform straight away. I mean in, in, in retrospect they probably could've achieved it because they, they got the military er they, they, they did get the military security and you probably could've afforded actually to, to mobilize the peasants through land reform. I if, if you could have got some cadres on the ground, you know, so, so the other bit of this is is if you are going to go for land reform you've got to have, not just the military presence and military security, but enough trained honest highly motivated cadres. Surely erm part of the problem Ah right. obviously Right so we, we, we also need a new land reform document, because we can't use the because egalitarianism we've, we've recognized from the experience of the north is wrong, that's not gonna work so we need something else. Right. Fine. So one of the things we're going to, to do is to, to see what that new land reform document might be. Before we do that can I just take up one other point. , sorry two reasons policy, one was the er military secured area Erm what was your question? Wouldn't, wouldn't you need the peasant mobilization first? Yes. Before the land re before you could have successful land reform. Sorry I lost my place. Erm Erm well th th th yeah but th th th there's, there's the military security you need erm you, you need er tt you've got to have the, the, the personnel to be able to do it Mm. and you've recognized that there are dangers if you, if you try and mobilize people too quickly i i it, it needs to be done slowly. But is there also the, the, the idea of,a and in a sense one thing you haven't actually got an appropriate land reform so you have to actually figure a new one out before we can ? Do you have something like a sort of guide book, you know how to conduct Ca can we, that, that's after break for coffee. One other thing before that. Is, is it possible to argue that the south is fundamentally different in terms of its ? Tt er if, if, if you go back to some of the things we were looking at last term er er this idea of commercialization tt er argue that the south was a very different type of country to the north, that it is commercialized at least to a much greater extent and i if, I mean i if you take 's argument, if you take 's argument, they are all to do with, with provinces in the south and, and the argument is that here we have, we are looking at a commercialized viable economy and both and and for example are all arguing really that landlordism is not the problem the problem is that you, you, you, you you need to go further in terms of commercialization and that that, and that's the way to go. I E you're not really looking at a feudal economy in the south any more i it may be a much more heavily commercial capitalist economy and therefore the kind of land reform programme that you might incorporate from a feudal north might not be entirely relevant. So there might be something in the argument that, that it's not just a, a question of what you've learned from the north, but there may be a recognition that the economy in the south is different, or at least they might be arguing, those who are arguing that the economy in the south is different and that, that reform might not be necessary, it might not even be appropriate in the south. It's a possibility. Did the Communist Party know that though? Cos surely they'd want to try to make peasants see that exploitation was I mean cos there was still an agrarian problem in the south, just because it was more commercialized and economically viable there was still thousands, tens of thousands of people who were starving and stuff so erm did the Communist Party recognize this difference in the economy, in the economic structure between the north and the south? I mean we can because we've studied it and had all the statistics and stuff. And would they wanted to have believed it. I don't think they s th th they obviously didn't see it in, in quite the terms that but I think there was an awareness that there was likely to be much more opposition to, to land reform in the south. Not s in a sense just by individual feudal landlords, but by landlords saying well I'm, I'm not really feudal anyway, that I've moved on from that, I am a commercial landlord rather than a feudal landlord. This is the difference? Mm. You don't have any of this sort of you have to work dates that they had sort of like bonds in which they have to work to supply labour for certain dates on their land instead of feudal ties Exactly. yeah, Yes. as opposed to that was a part of being a tenant, you know, for the honour of you pay me rent but you also come and work on my land for how many days But as such just because you're hiring people that's still going to be, in Marxist terms, seen as exploitation. Right. But it might be in but it, it is, it is i i that was right,th th th there is a i that they could be, if you like, capitalist landlords and feudal landlords. Now capitalist landlords might be the development certainly in terms of production you, you might be disrupting a viable, commercial, capitalist orientated economy, and would you really want to do that? Well no if you tried to then you, you'd be in some difficulty rules which, you know Yes. commercial industrial society Yeah. Yeah. And it might also be that the landlords in Saigon are if you like more commercial, more capitalist, it might be they were better organized than landlords in the north. I mean th th th the clan links in the south were much stronger than they were in the north, and therefore there might be even greater commercial landlord opposition to land reform than there had been in the north. Was the south not more erm densely populated as well? Yes. Yeah. So you'd end up putting much smaller sort of bits of land Yes. for each peasant which is going to harm production too. So there's gonna be less There's, there's less inequality or there's a greater pressure of population therefore are you saying that, that land reform might at least on the model tried in the north, might not yield any economic benefits Mm. in terms that, that th th the erm land to released would be relatively small? Yes. Right. So the economic gains from land reform in the south might not be that great. I mean you, the, the more you argue the south is a viable economic system, the less there is to gain from land reform. erm and stuff like that I mean the amount of land each family will get if you redistribute land, then the land for the family is not gonna be able to support the family. Right. But Yeah. Yes Mm. Yes. Erm I, I think I might have missed Adam's point and I was going back to whether the south was more efficient than the north because just tying it in with the seminar we had on managerial farms, weren't there more in the north than in the south? And so then that would just prove that how, managerial farms weren't that much more efficient? Er I think those are separate issues. You, you, you're right to say that on the whole there, the managerial farms were in, in the north, although there w there was clearly some in the south Mm. erm I don't think this in itself said anything about level of efficiency of managerial farms. Erm I think it's, it's saying more about how how we categorize this economy in the south, it clearly, it, it's not a managerial Mm. erm but that, the fact that there were managerial farms in the north might erm have er er important implications for the kind of land reform document we would want to draw to accommodate the situation in the north as well. Yeah my problem is just erm having said that we don't think land reform should go ahead in the south because it's a fairly efficient set up Mm. then the, the main problem is rent because presumably it all, all starts being creamed off the top so, okay you don't have to redistribute land, but you can still get rid of the landlords and the people who are erm taking away the surplus Right. from, from the , you could either do it by a method of taxing landlords so heavily Yes. that it's barely worth their while to erm to employ try and get rid of them by doing that er which er which means that there shouldn't be redistribution of land that much and therefore Right. S yes so rent reduction will, could make a significant difference in the south because you've essentially got a landlord tenant society Yeah. and you, it might open the way for peaceful land reform Yeah. Mm. I mean if, if you er er the whole experience of was that you could get rent reduction and interest rate reduction relatively peacefully so you wouldn't get disruption etcetera and you wouldn't get disruption and what, what you might come to recognize as a more , a more viable agricultural system. So peaceful land reform based around rent reduction, interest rate reduction, might be the ultimate strategy for given your learning process in the north, given the nature of the economy in the south. So if you, I mean, to go back to our initial proposition, whilst on the face of it it seems curious that in the area in south China where one would expect land reform to be easiest to achieve the communists adopt a much more moderate, slower, cautious policy but for a whole variety of reasons we, we're, we're tending towards the view that that would be the most appropriate anyway. Yeah. Right. And er so, so, so we are er ou out of this it's er we're still, we're still committed to land reform are we? We st we still want to achieve land reform because that ultimately is, is going to be the only way of ensuring that we end feudalism and the proper benefits go to the poor. So we, we, we've got in a sense this holding exercise of rent reduction, interest rate reduction but we are going to need a new land reform document to take us through, I mean certainly once we get to nineteen forty nine and we are in power,th th we, we are gonna want land reform aren't we? Mm. Sure, do, we do need land reform? isn't it? Right. Okay so we are,w w we're now in a position of, certainly by nineteen forty nine we're, we're on the verge of power, we want l we, land reform is not taking place any more, there are still some areas in the north it hasn't taken place out in the far north west it hasn't taken place, so we, we, we are going to need a new land reform document based on all the experience we've got which will carry us through and, and it's really that land reform document, document that we are going to implement for the whole of China, and it's going to be that document which really is going to abolish feudalism and create some sort of equality. Well let's have some coffee and then come back and We've gotta devise a new land reform law. What's our priority? What, what, what really is the land reform to achieve now? of feudalism You've gotta Right. Yeah. Protect commerce and industry. protect commerce and industry. Yeah, I guess it's all Just looked after go on. Erm well erm it's that Yeah. we are now in power but I don't think that presumably proved that we can run an economy efficiently Mm. and once we've got that then we have the resources from that I think to introduce other programmes that take Mm. quite a long time to implement, for example Mhm. erm Wh when you're saying to run the economy, do you mean the rural economy or the economy, you know, China as a whole? Well let's say we've moved on to and we're into nineteen forty nine say Yeah. and we've in nineteen forty nine and w w w we are either half controlled or we're, we can now see that you know the civil war is, is going so quickly our way that we are going to have control within a year or so we are likely to have control over the economy as a whole. D does that begin to make a difference? Yes because now Right. Yes. So we then have to coordinate our policies Mm. erm this is going to be really hard work . It's got, I mean, surely the, the middle peasants or even the rich peasants the group of people that are gonna be most productive in the economy erm so you know your reform has to be fairly moderate in that sense that they have to be able to promote Right. economic growth and, and Right. So in a very broad sense agriculture is going to have to con contribute to China's, China as a whole's economic development Mm. I E to, to, and will contribute to China's industrialization because once we are in control industrialization will be necessary. So agriculture will have to play a role in that and therefore we want to increase agricultural output and in order to do that you want to protect the middle and rich peasants who are the most efficient producers, or I E managerial farms if, if they are more efficient, you want to, if you want it would not make sense to take land away from rich peasants in order to give to poor peasants when rich peasants might be more efficient producers. Well it depends how quickly the poor peasants can achieve more efficiency how quickly they can do that. Right. Yes, so, so, so you're taking decisions in terms of well which are the most efficient within the countryside and how can we create those m those . That er that, that, I mean that efficiency thing is becoming an important consideration in a way which we, we, we've not mentioned before. Mm. Well I mean surely it's, that's the point now is to try to make a fair erm law and one that is ideologically erm designed seeing we've got to power, or we've got certainty of obtaining power, therefore land ownership has got to be land ownership which has been capitalism Marxist So th th is becoming more complex. I i in the past our aim with land reform has been very largely erm we want to end feudalism and we want to maximize mobilization we, we're now saying okay we, we still want to those, but we, we've also got to ensure that somehow we have a land law which ensures that agriculture will play a role in China's industrialization and so we will get maximum efficiency from the agricultural sector as well as mobilization, as well as ending feudalism. Er er we could say that we've got a much bigger range of aims and does that mean that we are more likely to have it's going to be very difficult isn't it, for us to be able to achieve all of those aims at the same time. Well er I mean well things like communal ownership advocate them to be reforms You can move beyond the efficiencies of erm of the erm managerial systems or the existing systems by erm creating, you could do coll collectives and then using state support to erm bring in erm more capital You reckon state collectives do you? Well well you, you can advocate erm mutual aid and all these sorts of things which erm which are erm a step towards, I mean I'm not saying they're directly You can encourage it without how the Right. agricultural system works. So you might actually want to put something of that in to your land reform Yeah and, and you can have erm through loans etcetera you can start increasing Right. capital which Yes. you could get into a situation which is beyond managerial farms anyway because you've got more capital Are they gonna have the resources to do that though? From the government. Ha? It's from the gov the government But where does the government get the money from? The same place it got the the erm tt the money for twenty er twenty or something in, in loans. Well I dunno wouldn't you, and that's what's Well yeah Right questions er on that , yeah, okay. Erm going back to your point, we, we are operating within the context of a new democracy, right, which is, is, is broadly a kind of democratic approach erm I E that it's, it's an indication of a sort of the bourgeois revolution but within that you're saying it's not just a democratic revolution, it's a new democratic revolution and within that there will be elements of socialism being created. So we, we are not just creating capitalism per se we are building in that direction er but there will be elements of socialism there which we can then build on and take us forward. So our, our land reform is going to have to reflect that so you would expect to see elements, perhaps, of socialisms being created. Okay. So, so th th that would be some of the thinking which would lie behind sitting down and, and and drawing up a, a reform document a land reform document, in the very late nineteen forties. Sh I mean to, to my mind, shouldn't the land ownership possibly one of the key issues cos that is if you have land ownership and then you're just paving the way for the new capitalist society and to, you know,according to Marxist theory which I think is a pretty dodgy one,they have to go from capitalism to achieve socialism Right. socialists , which is just a load of rubbish if you ask Okay. But, but, but, but our experience of the past did not get the peasants to support us unless we give them that. Yeah. That's right, so that's what I'm saying if, if want to do that abolish land ownership then it would suggest they're going for a ideologically based Right. land reform, if they don't it's suggesting it's just another means of obtaining power by fragmenting Erm or, or a pragmatic in terms of erm you want to minimize disruption, you actually want to get production going and the way to get production going is to give the peasants the land themselves. Yeah, that's right. Which isn't really erm compatible with social with communism. I don't see how you can argue it is, I don't see how anyone can. Right. Erm but it Shh It would suggest it's just not a transitory stage. But, but but ending feudalism is the first important stance. Well that's what they argue, yes. But I mean feudalism Okay. it's hardly communism is it? Erm no, but you're, at least you're getting out of feudalism. Well yeah but capitalism But you can't go straight for socialism or communism. Well that's what they said but why not? Because I mean that's just rubbish, they said you have to go to capitalism and then, then naturally evolve into socialism communism. Well, but we, no we're not saying that, what we're saying is that we so all we're trying,w w w that they were saying we can't go from cap er from feudalism to socialism but we don't want to go just from feudalism to capitalism, we want to go into er if you like a capitalism with socialist characteristics. We, we want there to be elements of socialism built into the capitalism we're creating which will allow us to go straight into, to socialism in the future. Mm And supposed to see the superiority of socialism in this capitalist what socialism anyway? Well there was a, there was a debate or something and that's when the committee Erm I'm not sh w w well would you really have, have, have worried about that at the time?getting out of feudalism then why exactly how you're gonna go from there. I mean as long you are going in a way which is setting up getting through to socialism as soon as possible, I'm not sure there would be any point in thinking about those issues until you've got a bit further. I mean I'm, I I dunno. I was just, I mean did they really believe that it would, it would just lead straight on to socialism? I, I, I think they probably believed that, that, that the best way to get into socialism was to begin to create socialist elements from the start, that would facilitate the move erm and once you'd got full control, I mean this is where, where there might be kind of bits you can say that once, once we, we need to make these assurances to get us out of feudalism. Once we, once we are out of feudalism and once we have political control we can dictate wherever we want to go and once we've got full control we will go into socialism. But as of, as of nineteen forty eight forty nine, if you'd said you'd gone into a village, right you guys we're going into socialism, we are gonna create collective farming the peasants would have said no. So there position in nineteen forty nine wasn't re in effect all that secure cos No. of the personnel that Right. I mean th th th th they were on the way to military security, but were they going, they, they, they recognized they had to carry the population with them. I think there, there was a genuine democratic element to this that, that it,i i i it wasn't going to be forcible socialism, it was going to be socialism which would come naturally because that would be what the population wanted. Mm. And that, that would come gradually. Well you, you could do the sort of token gesture of giving them the land like they did in the past, at least that's showing what some sort of communism In order to get the support, yes, and to or in order to end feudalism, which was, was the, the priority. After that it's anybody's guess. Okay. Let's, let's have a look at the, the document So have you all got one you can you can see ? So, article one feudal exploitation by the landlord class shall be abolished and the system of peasant land ownership shall be introduced in order to set free the rural productive forces, develop agricultural production and thus pave the way for new China's industrialization . So that the, the, the two main aims are, are stressed there, you are gonna end feudal exploitation and you are going to create a new system which will set free the force of rural production in order to pave the way for new China's industrialization. So for, for the first time the revolution is given an economic goal in that it is to set up industrialization and in a sense the ending of feudalism and the creation of industrialization emerge as, as the two forces whereas up until now it has been feudalism perhaps egalitarianism. So it's we, we've already, that, that already has changed significantly. Er you've then got a series on confiscation confiscation and retribution of land, so article two, land, draught animals, farm implements and surplus grain the landlords surplus houses shall be confiscated. other, other property shall not be confiscated so you're gonna take all the land, animals, implements from the landlords, you're gonna take their surplus grain, their surplus houses into the countryside but, but nothing else you, you're gonna take from landlords. Er you're gonna take in rural land belonging to, to shrines, temples, monasteries, churches, schools, organizations etcetera etcetera etcetera industry and commerce shall be protected from infringement, industrial and commercial enterprises operated by landlords and the land and properties used by landlords to greater industrial shall not be confiscated erm you, you're worried that if you confiscate them they're simply broken up between people and those productory forces are disbanded. So you, you, you're taking landlords farm assets, but you're not taking their industrial, commercial or urban assets at all. And then er revolutionary armament d dependents, farmers, workers, staff professional workers, peddlers and others who rent out small pro portions of land because they're engaged in other occupations, or because they lack the labour power, shall not be classified as landlords. If the average per capita of land held in such does not exceed two hundred percent of the average per capita land held in the locality it shall remain untouched. So there's a group within the village that you are going to allow to own twice the average So you're enshrining inequality within it. Is there a a sort of suggestion of reward here? You know there's some tenants Well, er sure but what about commercial workers and peddlers and others who But there's already inequality by not stripping the landlords of anything but Yeah. Tt and then we come to rich peasants, land owned by rich peasants and cultivi cultivated by themselves or hired labour and their other properties shall be protected from infringement. So anything that the landlo er the rich peasant owns and works himself or cultivates by hired labour you're going to allow to keep. And, over and above that, small portions of land rented out by rich peasants shall remain un untouched. In certain special areas the land rented out by rich peasants may be requisitioned in part or in whole with the approval of the people's government at level or above. You special permission to encroach on all of the rich peasant's land he rents out. Why do they use the word requisition instead of confiscate? Does requisitioning have the same connotations as confiscation? So they are they're being harsher on landlords but on the rich peasants they're just taking back the land instead of requisition, if you're in the position say then it's like it's for a common cause Mm. if you take away some of the land confiscate's a punishment. Yeah. At the end of the day the effect is the same. So i it's another, well it may, the effect may be the same but it's another way of drawing distinctions between landlords and rich peasants and you are treating landlords differently from rich peasants. And then the last is if the portions of land rented out by rich peasants of a semi-landlord type exceed in size the land held by themselves and by their hired labour the land rented out shall be requisitioned. But that would seem to imply that only if a rich peasant rents out more land than he owns and works either by himself or hired labour, he will be able to keep that all. So a rich peasant will be able to keep all of the land he was working himself, all the land he was working by hired labour and land that he hired, er that he rented out as long as the amount he, he rented out did not exceed all of the land that he worked himself or used hired labour. Pretty generous position for rich peasants isn't it? That's not clear exactly what that last bit says cos it's not saying like you all of the land they rent out, but I guess it just means the excess above which Right. I think if I was a rich peasant I would be using that to argue that you could take my rented land, it was Well so would I. A leftist nut-case might Right, yeah but fine. But I mean th there is, if, I mean , that is generous to rich peasants. It also sort of encourages them to farm as much land as they can to presumably rent more out. Yeah. Right. Land and other properties of middle peasants, including well to do middle peasants, shall be protected from infringement. So we, we, we're still working to middle peasants being able to earn twenty five or thirty percent of their income from exploitation, either hired labour or renting out land and we won't touch it at all. So the, the the only land that we are taking in is landlord land and the land that rich peasants rent out over and above, if er in size larger than the land they are going to continue to work, either themselves or with hired labour. Er we're not, we're not touching middle peasants at all, they're sacrosanct. So they're still, they were still keeping to their aims of achieving greater equality, it was just not absolute equality egalitarianism. That is you, you, you're miles away from absolute egalitarianism. But to rich peasant economy. This rich peasant economy ought to benefit the population as a whole because it's increasing production and erm if it becomes more efficient then the rents won't have to so high the poor peo poor people benefit. Yeah but the only thing you're really doing is, is taking away this nominal erm exploitive relationship, you're still gonna be exploiting the of existing Mm. and you might, you might but there's still gonna be erm be certain divisions in the society perpetuating. I actually think it's, it's, okay it's a more equal society, but it is by no means an equal society you're creating. So I mean well let's go on then. The distribution of land, all land under of production confiscate with the exception of those to be nationalized to be taken over by the Peasant Association, the unified distribution to poverty stricken peasants who their land . Production landlords should be given an equal share so that they can make their living by their own labour and thus reform themselves through labour. Er land should be distributed by taking village as a single unit, that should be distributed in a unified manner according to the population therein based on the principle of allotting the land to its present tiller and making necessary readjustments in land held by taking into consideration the amount, the quality and location of land. So i it, it's the old nous quantity and quality coming in there. Er but basically you're going to give land back to the people who are tilling it because that's what they, they have an attachment to. Er and then going on to article twelve under the principle of allotting land to the present tiller, land owned by the tiller should not be drawn upon for redistribution. When rented land is drawn upon for distribution proper consideration sh should be given to the present tiller. Land he acquires through distribution plus his home land shall be slightly and suitably more than the land held in arbitrary distribution of the peasants who had little or no land. should be the present tiller should re retain the approximate average per capita land, land holding in the in the locality. So if you already own land you would end up with a larger unit than if you owned no land before. So we are looking at creating a society with our rich peasants who are going to own significantly more than whatever the average is going to be, and significantly more than middle peasants. We've then got well to do middle peasants, we've got middle peasants who would in turn own more than a part-owner, part-tenant before the revolution, who after the revolution would own more than a full tenant before the revolution. Maintaining differentials Well basically, apart from landlords and the peasants, there's er something for everybody. Yes. But landlords, oh no but they Lan lan er and landlords get some land. Mm. Mm. So you are about as far away from absolute egalitarianism as you can get, you are actually enshrining You are creating a system within the countryside which is based on inequality. And then there's a, a series of er oh and they add er er during the people's governments or at or above the may in accordance with the local land agency set apart certain land bound to be nationalized and used for the establishment of experimental farms or one or more county's or model state farms, so there's provision for the creation of so a form of socialism over the countryside but it's, it comes a long way down the list. Quite token isn't it? And very token, mm. So our final document when, and this is, this is issued in June nineteen fifty, we are in power, we are a communist government and our land reform is one which enshrines inequalities, it protects middle peasants it in effect minimizes what it can give to the poor. There is, there is no egalitarianism whatsoever. There is very little provision, there is, there is token provision for the creation of socialism. And, and this is what revolution has produced. At precisely the point where we could have been at our most radical we are at our least radical, this is the least radical document that we've come across. Are you happy with this? Not particularly but I understand that er it is, you now have the whole of China which small areas erm relatively small areas, you've now got the whole thing, I mean if you start initiating very radical reforms, as you say you don't have the personnel or the resources to erm to prevent a, you know, a big change disruption. Yeah Presumably you've gotta start somewhere haven't you? You know you've gotta start somewhere, you can't just , you've gotta start somewhere Yeah but the establish the principles This is where you want to start then? What? No that's what I'm saying I'm saying that you know you, you should er perhaps try to establish some underlying principles to your policy. But isn't there, isn't there a big difference between sort of recognizing the faults of past land reforms and advocating something like this? Why? I mean it's not merely recognizing that past land reforms didn't work, it's a totally different policy. Th th th this in effect is creating capitalism in the countryside. Mm. You've got private owned , you've got inequalities. So the creates capitalism. That's only because you're looking at it in a very short- term perspective, they, the way they saw the communist revolution was by a very long drawn out process and so it wasn't that the revolution had just created this was, this was an important step in order to lead to their ultimate goal. And it just goes to show that the Communist Party were very forward looking but I, I would, I would be very surprised if the communists understood how deterministic idea of erm some sort of progression, I think you can't really say in about ten years' time we're gonna be here So it was pragmatic but it could also fit into their ideology in that how, that if they'd gone straight for socialism Now come on, this, this is disgraceful. There's no this is a disgraceful No but if they'd gone straight for document for a communist party to base land reform on. There's no ideology at all. Absolutely, absolutely none. I think it's only pragmatic in that it's maintaining production levels. Or helping production but So is this what, they certainly ? Yeah, this is it. This is That's No, no No but I mean the basis of it was presumably landlord out and China was based around this Yeah. Well it was for the next two years. They didn't No, no. Oh right. I mean this, these, these, these Well that's alright then. No, I mean we would, no So I mean this is just another basic erm Yeah. Well in fact it, it it has in fact gone full circle because through the nineteen fifties you went through to co-ops to collectives to communes which lasted through to nineteen seventy eight, the communes were then disbanded and you're back, now, after reform which took very much system. But, you know, if, if, if I'd have put, when we, when we started to talk at the beginning of this term we had at the beginning a general discussion about what are we gonna put in land reform, if I'd have come along to s to you and I'd said well I think we should do this We'd of laughed. Right. And I, I, I, I, I, I would not have endeavoured to persuade you that this was going to be the land reform document that was, that this is it. It doesn't surprise me that they did it. But this isn't this is it? I mean you said two years later change. Ah well sure but then the whole lot goes, but, but, but, but, but this was, this was the document, I mean the way this was put forward, this is going to last us through into the foreseeable future. Erm you know,th th th this er er it was a medium term horizon on this at the time. Are you saying that they didn't mean what they said then? And that I mean cos Mao said that how that you needed to have a moderate policy, that was the correct one Absolutely. in order to ha to achieve one's goals, are you saying that how look well you've just got to assume that they were wrong that they didn't mean what they said? I mean it's perfectly Yeah. legitimate to think that how that they did think that this was a short-term goal in order to achieve their long-term objectives. One, one might argue that erm one might argue that there is a cynical implication thereupon, one might argue that but, but in i i in exactly the same way at the moment you might argue that all the assurances they've given on Hong Kong are, are not worth the paper they're written on and, and, and as soon as the, soon as you get through to nineteen ninety seven they'll walk in. Er are, are you saying no that they, they are not er But you see they wouldn't have been able to realize their goals in nineteen forty nine. I mean, okay Why not? supposing if they had fifty they could, they could have gone they could have gone But could they? Were th were the peasants ready for it? Is that what the peasants wanted at that time? Ah. Well okay bu but in that sense are you saying that the learning experience was such that the peasant was so conservative and reactionary and so was all you could do? Yeah which peasants are you talking about? Mm. Are you talking, saying the peasant, I mean it doesn't mean anything does it, the peasant? Mm. all peasants. I mean it may just depend upon how secure the How, how would you have felt as a poor peasant I mean it really does depend upon how secure they were and how much, how much support,ge genuine support they had of the, the masses as a whole, because if they didn't then there's no way, and people weren't calling for them to establish socialism at that time were they? Would they have known what socialism was? Exactly. And so how can the Communist Party But I mean just say right, we're gonna do this, this Just because they don't know what it socialism theoretical concept or something, they might have known that they wanted Yes but it's the basic underlying concept capitalism and becomes rich as the we western world then th they'll be all for that No, I just find that really difficult because they didn't have the means at that time to achieve it. I mean we've already established the fact they didn't have, they didn't have the personnel to . Yes they did. They were in power. They were in power but I mean who's to say that the pe there's not gonna be a civil war and they'll be thrown out of power. So why did they think that they had the er means to do it in nineteen forty seven? You know when they said, when they went for a very radical policy Well perhaps because they were more idealist and that now they're becoming more realist but they're still erm I mean they're learning from their past mistakes and they've seen that right so we have to have a moderate policy which is gonna take us a little bit further towards socialism. They're not totally contradicting their ideals. Oh yeah It confirms our suspicions at the last gasp we were right. It's all this absolute power corrupts actually isn't it? Mm. Erm the, the people who did Mao ? Or ? Well I mean there, there, there's no question about nineteen forty nine absolutely non no documents could have come out unless they had Mao's approval. Mm. Er Did he shoot the other people involved by any chance? that's behind this Right. erm I E it's the same person who comes up with I mean yeah as you say he's very high personable person, there must be some reason behind it er and a lot of the theoretical reasons that he says of of ideological progression, maybe he thought that, that, that erm the only, ultimately the only way to capitalis er to communism was through capitalism and he needs to establish a period of capitalism first. Sure yes. And that's what sort of Marx said. So that Yeah. yeah but it doesn't mean that they're selling out completely does it because it Mm. it means that it's just, it's a realization of, of the progression of communism is to establish a capitalist phase. Okay. communism rather a, a weak theory doesn't it? It's like saying Well Mao would do anything the Communist Party, let's make it capitalist society. No because if you look at Marxist writing it's,i it's, you go through certain stages and you can't achieve That's right. And that's what's happening to us now That's just, that's just but why does it have to happen? It doesn't. If they really wanted they could've just gone straight for it. If they'd really wanted to. They wanted to make it work though and they couldn't have made it work unless they had had the I mean the right conditions to do so. You could have you could have made it work. You could've made it work if the peasants if the peasants were revolutionary, if the peasants had changed their value system and weren't and that there were very few who were still working within the economy. So er Are are you saying this is all that was possible because the peasant really was a capitalist at heart? Well it was very likely that this policy was gonna succeed In what? and they was gonna take a bigger risk, in keeping them in power so that they can achieve their longer term ends. But sh sh sure they can succ succ they can succeed in creating capitalism, it, it it, it might succeed in paving the way for new China's industrialization but we've gone a long way from any any ideological position, we've gone a long way from well what is in the best material benefiting class of the poor peasant now the poor peasant is not gonna get very much out of this. It seems as if a disillusionment, the communists are trying you know, trying policies Yeah. and they're still not bloody work what can we do? Okay well we're in a really bad situation, I mean we can achieve something at least and perhaps oh perhaps communism doesn't work after all, they just seem to be doubting their own beliefs and what they've read. And that's the only way I can see a way through this, thinking okay they've got this ideology, they've tried it twice and it still hasn't worked. Let's go back to the drawing board and try something else. Cos this, this is definitely not communism in any sense. Right. I mean does, does this document surprise you? I mean is Yes. is that what you thought the nineteen forty nine revolution was all about? I'm not surprised it's come back erm to, to a sort of right is this an expression of mass mind do you think? What do you think? Cos if it is communist behaviour There is, no there's no mass argument because you've got Why not? this different situation that's not mass minded. Well it's quite, I'm sure that I'm sure, I'm sure that a lot of, I'm sure the rich peasant Well there's about eight people cos really they're the only f you know they'll be going yeah that's my mass line alright Well of course it is, yeah but that's not thing is it? Well, it is for them you see, there, there's no such thing as an absolute mass line, the mass line in particular two types of people. No that's not a mass mind then is it? Exactly. well there's no such thing as a mass line then is there? but anyway we, we, we'd better stop there. But I think it's important we've, we've now got what what the policy was. On the face of it it looks very much as though this is erm very little social justice what, what I hope we'll do next week is to, is to take that idea up and to see maybe why this policy came through erm and we'll look at the, like the arithmetic of that as to, as to how much money there was, how much land there was in fact. Mm. How you could actually achieve a distribution. So I think for next week I'd like to be looking in some detail, there are two sources on this one is, is and the other is ,tho those two are crucial in terms of understanding or, and and that those are crucial in terms of understanding erm why this policy document . Er who's doing next week? If, if you're stuck for them come and see me cos I've got them Right Mrs do have a seat. What can I do for you? It's the eczema again. Oh. Actually it started getting a bit better from when I telephoned. Ah good. What are you taking at the moment? Are we putting anything much on? Erm I use the Dipabase and the erm Betnovates Betnovates Ointment I think. Mm. It was back in February I saw you isn't it? Let's have a look. And it really is very localized but that is quite angry, it's bubbly too and spreading, little finger. But these two are fine. Mm. Mm. Hmm. This bubbly area. You say that's . Mm. Yeah. Right are you still using Betnovates And Mm. Dipabase And Yeah. it's flared up despite that? Yeah. Right,. Okey-doke. Hmm. It's, it's a bit cracked . It makes it very As I say it's better than, it's a bit better than it was. But it's still not that No. good is it? No. No. Right, what we need to do is to hit it fairly hard and try to get it damped down as quickly as we possibly can. Now don't get rid of the Betnovate have you still got some left? Mm. Okay. Because as soon as it starts to die down you could probably go back on to Betnovate to keep it maintained. And you may actually have to use Betnovate on a preventative basis every now and again. Even if there's not a deal there, as soon as it starts it's slightly flaky straight in. But what I'm gonna do is give you erm Dermavate Dermavate is actually more potent than Betnovate in the ointment form again to get the rapid penetration. And once again, like Betnovate it's used twice a day. And in a similar fashion you should use the Dipabase to keep the skin as soft and moist as you can Mhm. rather than letting it get dried out and cracked. Dermavate is, as I say, it's more potent, it's probably not so suitable for keeping going with, but for jumping on top of things in a hurry, it's fine. And I think that's what we ought to use. Sometimes you actually need to use it under something, but it's difficult to use under things and part of the hand. I don't know what you mean under Well sort of under a dressing, or Oh right. under a bit of polythene, so it, it actually gets absorbed even quicker. Mm. But er I don't think we need to go to that er length with you. I've still got those erm, you know, the little purple tablets? Yeah. That dissolve in water, Yeah, to soak them. Mm. You could, you could go back on the Permitabs if you want. It's not desperately moist, although certainly one of them is cracking quite a bit, and if that helps to dry it up and make it more comfortable then it's worth giving them a soak ten minutes a day. Mm. If you want to try those, you dissolve one in four litres of water which is er which is a little, just short just short of a gallo yeah you need a bowl. Yeah, but then you get the right concentration. If you use too high a concentration, it irritates and it stains even more than the dilute stuff does. But that may be worth a go if you've got some Permitabs left. Mm. But I think we'll use some Dermavate Have you got plenty of Dipabase Yeah. Good. A big tub, yeah? Mm. That's fine. Is it alright to put that on, you know, when it's broken? The skin Yes, you've got, you've got to be a bit careful with broken skin because if you put things directly on it, they tend to irritate. It won't do the skin any harm particularly, but it can smart. And Mhm. that might be one good reason for using the er the soaks. The other think I'd recommend, is, using a fine pair scissors, is take off the scaly bits, the bits that stick out, cos they're the bits that catch Mm. and hurt and Yeah. pull the skin apart. And once they're all sticking out, dead and scaly, they're redundant anyway, so you may as well trim it all down. Neaten it up. And you're less likely to catch your hands then. Okay? Okay. I'm going on holiday, a week on Sunday, and that was mainly why I wanted Mm. you know, to get sorted Yeah. Yeah. before then, because Yeah. I think if I'm in Yeah. I'm going to Spain, it's gonna be even Right. more of a nuisance. Yeah I think so. Well let me give you two tubes just in case you need to keep going for er longer than we might think. Okay. And then you can take that with you. So if . The other thing about the ointment's, of course, it waterproofs the hand, which is handy if you're going into the Med. Mm. If you will get some er protection then from the horrible Med wa soup getting in and infecting it. What about swimming and things? I mean Yeah you're okay, you can go swimming, it shouldn't do you any harm. I mean in n things like swimming baths are chlorinated so they've got a low bug count anyway, so, so you'll be at low risk of getting anything there. Right, so I, I use this till it clears Yeah. up? Yeah, and then you you've got your Betnovate to keep yourself ticking over with I hope. Mm. Okay. Some people need Dermavate to tick over with but er it's a bit potent to keep people going and going and going on so we'll see how you go with that. Lovely. Take care of yourself. Okay, thanks. Bye. Bye. Right. Now when I spoke to Mrs on the telephone last night she told me about the work you've been doing on and I have looked at it and I'm going to go over it again with you this afternoon because she thought it was very very good work. And she's marked it and I'm going to give it back to you and talk to you about it. I was very very pleased to see that a lot of you have tried to do your join up handwriting after a bit of practice we'd had and it had come out really really nicely, well done. Josephine your work was on the top and I thought goodness that can't be Josephine's writing. It was very nice wasn't it? So good girl. And some of the others I still have to look at. So I want to look at them at dinner time and share them with you this afternoon. But because Mrs did that work with you yesterday you did not do your history work, so I'm going to talk to you a bit and ask you some questions about the tiny bit we talked about to do with Roman Britain and how the Romans invaded Britain two thousand years ago. So sorry just a moment. If you could pop into five A, yes I would prefer to see music's doing do you know what I mean? Just sit down and and sit still for a minute because you'll be standing for a long time playing the recorder as well, if you want if you want to go to the toilet just take yourself all right . Seems to be something else going on. Let's go back to the invasion of Britain two thousand years ago. But it was less than two thousand years ago in actual fact that the first emperor Julius Caesar into Great Britain wasn't it? Can you remember how we talked about the Romans having a very strong army and how they captured land around Rome around it's lake and before long they'd captured land all around the Mediterranean Sea and they formed that into what we call the Roman Empire. And Julius Caesar stood in France in because he was in , the place he captured in France, and he could see Britain across the water and he wondered what the land was like over there. And he came over with . Er let's see if you can remember the year that was. It was after Jesus was born so we call that B C, no sorry it wasn't after it was before Jesus was born we call it B C before Christ. It was about two thousand years ago and it was how many years before Christ. Jody perhaps you could like would like to think, if you want us to listen to your playing this afternoon I would like you to listen to what I have to say this morning please. Can you tell us? Can you tell us? On the top of this sheet it told you. Kieran. Fifty five. Good it was fifty five B C. Fifty five years before Jesus was born. And you know we've had bible stories just before Christmas we know about the Romans being there in in erm Greece and Rome and all around that area at that time. Because when Jesus was born the the Roman soldiers were there and the kind at that time Herod ordered that all babies were killed and the Romans went out to do that didn't they? All babies born You tell us Kieran sorry? He killed the and heard that Jesus was born and he would be made king so he sent his men to go out and find every baby that was under two or three years old and kill them. Can you speak up when you're telling us. And erm Joseph and Mary they went to Egypt or somewhere, yeah Egypt, and when they went erm and I think the angels called them to go cos they came to Egypt as well and then they went to . Going to Bethlehem to get taxed didn't they? So we do know and we we do remember reading about bi er Romans in the bible at that time. Yes Daisy? Can I go the toilet? If you're very quick because you might miss out on what we're going to talk about. Was there anybody in here who plays a recorder and has some knowledge already of music and would be interested trying for the violin? I mean not just trying but if you if you get chosen to play the violin it means practising and practising and staying with it so that you become a good violin player. I think I'll do that for you Mr . Shh. Excuse me. Okay put your hands down again. Shh. Stacey we were just talking I've interrupted this talk on the Romans. Talk about or Mr has, er to to ask about anybody interested in violins playing. And I know you enjoy playing music. Er put your hands down for the moment. I'll I promised Mr a list but I've had a very busy week and haven't done him a list this week and I have promised and I've broken a promise. So I'm going to promise and you've got to remind me about this promise that the next Tuesday, that's when you're or even Wednesday, but if I give it you Tuesday we can be organized for Wednesday can't we? The the next Tuesday I'll give him a list of people who are interested and that means asking at home as well. Because it's no good saying you're interested and then going to ask your mother or father if you could talk a violin home and they said no I don't want you practising at home I don't like the sound of it or whatever. But sometimes mum and dads don't like you practising, so you need you need to ask and if you are chosen you need to commit yourself. That means turn up to all the practices and stick with it and join the orchestra and play in concerts as you get better all right? So it is a commitment it's not just for, oh I'd like to have a go. If you want to have a go I could bring my violin in and you can have a go at my violin any time. That's a different thing isn't it? Having a go and sticking with it? You may like you may have a try and find that you don't particularly en er like like it after all. But if I give some names to Mr next week I think yes well I've got them at the music later today so I can ask them then. Okay then sorry I hadn't . Right. Yes yes. Let's stop talking, sorry about the interruptions. So fifty five years before Jesus was born the Romans were already he was born I think but they had not come as far as Britain. Who was the who was the emperor at the time who decided to send soldiers and the army to Britain? Jennifer. Was it Julius Caesar? It was. It was Julius Caesar he was a very famous Roman Emperor and a famous English writer called Shakespeare wrote a story about Julius Caesar. Right he sent only a very small army and when they arrived on the shores. Let's talk about first of all the boat that they went in. How did they get across the water? Wasn't? You don't think it was. What do you think Kieran? Erm they went on a ship that looked a little bit like dry bean. Yes. They had rows on the bottom all the and some of the men on the top. Right a trireme a Greek warship had three layers didn't it? And I I do believe that the Roman boats had two. They had the deck on the top where all the Roman soldiers stood in their uniform, I say their uniform I mean their armour don't I? Er and all their fighting gear and we're we're going to have a look at a Roman legionnaire. That was their name a legionnaire because they belonged to a legion of erm the Roman army. Er and we'll have a look at all the things that they carried and erm fought with later on. But they had all their equipment with them and they just stood on the deck and underneath below deck were the people who rowed the boats over. Who were they? Yes? The slaves. The slaves yes they had slaves to row. And when they arrived Great Britain or Britain as it was called then and the people living there were Britons. Also Celts. And when they arrived some of the Celtic tribes were standing on the shore and they were very very fierce, bright red hair some of them had and beards. I think a lot of these Roman people had never seen red hair before, people who looked quite so fierce. And even though they were supposed to be the biggest and gravest army in the world they were frightened to get off the So what, who was the first person who stepped on land? See if you can remember because we did we did talk to you a very short time about this on Monday. Now let's have somebody else different because I I know there's been listening hard obviously. Katrina? Yes that that's right it had a special name. The person who held the well what was he called? Standard bearer. Do you remember he was called the standard bearer. See if I can find you a picture of a of a, I've got a picture of a Roman legionnaire here but not the standard bearer. Standard bearer's like a pole it was a pole they held, that's what the Roman soldiers look like look the Roman legionnaires and the standard bearer had a pole with shields on it. And he stepped forward first. Now once he'd stepped forward on to the on to the shore what happened? They, what's the word you want? Stepped on They followed didn't they. They followed. Phillip. His tooth's fell out. Do you need to wash your mouth out Adam? Yes. Go on then quickly. We're having a a lose a tooth week I think. Erm right so it was it was supposed to be a disgrace to lose your standard in your legion in the Roman army. So there was way they were going to let the standard bearer go on his own and face all these fierce fighters. They had to go and give him some support and they put up quite a good fight. They didn't have enough people with them, they didn't have a big enough army. So they decided to retreat. What does retreat mean? What does retreat mean? Do you do you know Phillip? Does it mean go back? Go back that's right good. So they got back on their boats and they went back. They went back to France which was already part of the Roman Empire. Perhaps back to Rome where they'd come from to see their families. Can we have dental inspection please. Yes. Is it is it absolutely necessary? Mrs has already asked for her class to be after one and we've only got the two classes to do. Erm right erm Jennifer. I tell you what we could do cos Mr might have to stay. Jennifer could you ask Mr if he could just pop in and see me a minute. You can turn the tape off and we can carry on this Oh wait a minute. She seems to be Oh erm You can carry on this afternoon. You've got me first two lessons after dinner haven't you? So that would be all right I think. Let me just have a word with I was going to say can we take them in small groups? Is that any help? Not really cos it's a sort of discussion with the whole class so I need the sort of feed back Oh. Okay? Have all the other classes been looked at? Yes. They have to go for a dental inspection That's all . And we're the only ones that haven't been. We do have a double lesson after dinner which we could continue this. That's perfectly okay. If that's all right with you. Yes. Okay. Right then could you g you want all of them. We want the girls first in registration order or alphabetical order. Well I'll tell you what we'll do then because we don't want to sit here, just a moment, before you go, don't start talking. I would like the boys to go and get out their topic folders and colour the map that shows all the things that the Romans are hoping to find in Great Britain. That's a simple task you can do while the girls are at the dentist. And when the girls come back they can do that while you go to the dentist. And girls I don't know whether you know your order in the registers. If you can work it out and stand at at the door and I'll get the register to check. Good morning, good morning. Good morrow. How are you today? I'm fine. How are you? I'm alive. Causing trouble. I suppose you're ahead of the game if you're alive. Yes. That's it. Now then young man, what can we do for you today? Well. You're alright, check that. You know the young man er Yes. Yes. Trouble? No problems. Mm? No problem. No problems, good. No problem there at all. Good. And how're yo how've you been doing? Er, I'm er the last er f five days or so, I've been getting up less. Good. Three times. I've been getting up three times. And, and one day I got u up once. So it must be making a difference. Good. That's great. Keep on with it for another Ma maybe, maybe another once or twice er and I'll h have the job done. I hope. It's, I mean it's going anyway, it's working. It's making a difference to life. Yeah. Good. Good. Oh it is. And er I want some pills for circulation, I've only got two left. Right. Three a day, they don't last long. No, you go through them. four How's May getting on? How's May? Brighter now. She's er having trouble walking now, she's not walking very well. She not? No. Er and the poor girl can't tell you what's the trouble. No. Otherwise she's as cheery as ever. She's happy as ever? Aye. Oh that's good. Well that's a good sign. Yeah. There we are, that'll keep you going for a wee while longer James. Thank you very much. Right. Okay, right Jim. We'll see you in Aye, bye bye. five or six weeks again. Thanks. Right. Cheerio now. Let's er find my the light thingy No, not today. No, there's no film today. Okay, so who's entertaining us this morning? Ah, how nice it's from psychology. Is it? Yes. Okay, off you go now. Well done, excellent. Well done Joy erm a nice summary of a complex book and er there's obviously a lot of things that will have to go of the erm lecture on it next week, so really this is not due to be talked about. By the way Tom while I'm on it erm I mislead you yesterday erm I look in my list I realized I It's, it's Tom who's doing it, I just wrote Tom and I thought you were in yesterday's group, but you're in today's group so it can't be you, it's Tom . So ignore that, I mixed you up with Tom I do apologize. You're not doing . In fact we haven't got you down for a paper at all in this class yet I don't think so if you'd like to do one for us you can see me about it afterwards. Okay, well erm Joy has outlined as I said this, this, this rather complex book erm what erm wh wh what issues do people want to er want to raise about it? What's it say that the people who don't like being in groups Well What would you say ? Erm Some people are more groupie than others. Some people are I think erm yeah they are What, taking the kind of analysis Freud uses in this book, what features in the individual would you look for, in order to answer these questions? I mean what, what psychological characteristics would make one person more groupie than another or more needing or wanting or enjoying belonging to a group than another? Can anyone suggest what features of the individual you might isolate as critical? Mhm n n why's that, could you explain that? Because in a group you y y y you get this erm the individual's ego and they,th they take on this the super ego of the, of a leader so they get this transparent idea so if a person got a stronger ego, then they're, then they're less likely to lose that and take on somebody else's ideas. Yes I think that's, that's certainly true isn't it and here erm Dean puts his finger really on what is a central concept of Freud's group psychology and one reveals transparent in the title of the book which is Group Psychology and the Analysis of Ego or in German erm Masse Psychologie und dich Analyse so erm the fact that Freud linked the two things together, the very title of the book shows the evil th that group psychology and ego psychology were intimately intimately connected with one another and er the central idea was that as Dean rightly says is that in a group the leader or the leading principal, and it doesn't always have to be a person, although usually a person plays, kind of represents the, the er the leader in the way that the Pope represents Christ for example, you know Christ can't be here right now, he's doing other things elsewhere I presume. Erm the the leader of the of, of, of the group is, is the focus and as Dean has said and as Joy explained, takes over functions of the individual's ego, super ego. What kind of functions does the leader exercise for the individual? Because there's quite a list of them and I think they explain many of the descriptive characteristics of o of goods or that Freud refers to. That's certainly true and in a sense that's the most obvious thing isn't it? The leader as always is er is a directive agency, the leader as it were erm takes over the individual self-determination by erm effectively telling telling the good what to do erm how can this er does this have to be in in one direction only I mean one gets the feelings very often you know you see things in the newspaper crowd hysteria and so on, erm do crowds always have to become kind of primitive and regressed or or can leaders influence them in other directions? Cos certainly you, sometimes you get the feeling don't you that okay being in the crowd or the group may reduce people's self-determination and self control, but the result is mayhem. So does that always have to happen? Well what would you say Joy, because you did touch on this in your, in your comments? Do, do groups always have to the behaviour and performance of their members or can they do the opposite? What do you think Dean I mean? Is that why you were thinking some people might not want to belong to groups cos they always see er the group as detracting from their ego? Yeah perhaps, I, I know that it applies to some people. Mm. I mean I, I don't feel comfortable talking I'm talking in a whole group I don't feel quite as comfortable not actually here, but in, in a debate situation talking to say two or three people. Yes. there must be some people there that wonder what that was really. Well of course tha that might just be intimidation by large numbers of other people, like you know having to stand up in front of a group of other people, I think anybody feels the same. Erm er embarrassment or reticence because there are so many other people erm there, but I think you, you meant more than that didn't you and Yes, yeah I did yeah er you were, you were saying that er for some people the group is a kind of a danger cos it takes something away from them, and that's certainly true, but the th the point I was, I was getting at was that if, if Freud's theory of the group is correct, that it's centred on the leader playing the super role then the presumably the leader could exhort members of the group to act better than they normally would, because after all one of the super leader's functions is to set the goals for the ego and to give the the goal, the ego something to aspire to so er and as Joy mentioned in her papers and I'm trying to remind you of,y you, you said that quoting Freud if you recall that, that, that Freud says and I think he, he, he repeats this from the also made the same observation that in a group or a crowd people can act a lot worse than they normally would, they can be more destructive, primitive erm and er more governed by their erm base emotions as it were, but equally in a crowd people can act better than they normally would. They can be more selfless, more public spirited, more erm idealistic than they would be on their own, because the super ego can presumably erm influence the ego in both directions, it can make the ego erm transcend itself as it were to higher ideals and like someone sometimes sees this in, in group behaviour, but equally of course it can erm debase the ego by setting lower standards than the ego would normally accepted itself. So erm,it it's important to remember that Freud's theory explains both of these tendencies and both the tendency for the group to make people better than they might normally be, but also that the tendency for the group perhaps to make them worse and of course either can happen and presumably a lot depends on the, on the leader, the leader or whoever is playing the, the leadership function presumably has erm some responsibility for this. Er in a sense you could say that the leader becomes the conscience of the, of the group. Now in, in, in the book, and this is a diagram in the book that the person who did this paper yesterday in yesterday's class put on the board, erm Freud doesn't use the term super ego, that term I think was first used by Freud a year or two later in his book The Ego which I think is nineteen twenty three. In nineteen twenty one he used the term ego ideal for what the term ego ideal I think reflects very nicely this idea of erm the super ego as setting the standard to which the ego inspires. The later term that Freud adopted to this super ego has become synonymous in people's minds with conscience the idea of the super ego as the the role of conscience and presum presumably that's another aspect of the same thing and er Serg Moskovicy in his excellent book Age of the Crowd erm which is on the reading list which I can thoroughly recommend in discussing this point of how Freud sees the leader as the kind of super ego of the followers quotes one of the Nuremberg war criminals, I forget which it was now erm Goering or Goebbels or one of these er people who when asked of the Nuremberg war tribunals why did you do the things you did, replied Adolf Hitler was my conscience and that's er that's a very erm good example of this idea of er how the the role of conscience can be transferred from the individual to the, to the leader of the group and I suppose Dean you would say erm illustrates one of the greatest dangers of group, group membership because er obviously if if that happens in a group, then erm individuals are to some extent erm surrendering their moral self-responsibility and of course if Freud's insight is correct, then there was an element of truth in in this in this excuse Adolf Hitler was my conscience. I'm not saying it's one that the tribunal should have accepted, but, but, but what I'm saying is th there is an element of psychological truth in that, because if Freud's theories if er bond Freud theory group behaviour is correct, then that does seem to happen some extent that the leader as it were takes and presumably this is why some people erm presumably er feel better in groups, perhaps that they get something out of a group that their own ego cannot provide, but other people are uncomfortable in groups because they feel that their ego is being alienated and they're losing some of their some of their power. So some people are erm are really rather allergic to groups, and I'm certainly one of them! Which is why my career has never flourished. Well no, er at least I don't think he does er Well why Yeah. Well this would be the other side of the picture. In the book Freud emphasises the bonds portrait of the crowd that Joy outlined to us. The, the other side of the picture is, is, is, is the loner as it were. Now, explore the psychology of the loner a bit more for us Heather, I mean what Usually does. Would everybody think that? Well explain why because there's an interesting point here you touch on. Erm Just expand that a bit. Why, why do you come to that judgment? Yeah, you see, you see the paradox Yeah, I see what y y y you're getting at, let me give an ex er an illustrated example which I think might help or at least bring, bring the paradox out of those clearly. What about psychotherapeutic groups? Because if if you took the the ideas of Freud's seriously, and a lot of people who work with groups, the therapeutic groups claim to, do you think you would come to the same conclusion as Heather, I mean c could you have for example a, a psychotherapeutic group could you do group psychotherapy? Well if, and if you took this Freud's theory seriously. What are the implications of that for group psychotherapy? You see the individual it's not so good is it not yeah You see the individual patient's dilemma, we've got no problem with the loner who comes for individual psychoanalysis they have been on their own th there's no problem there, but but what about the group analytic situation? What, what's the problem there? Well yes, I mean th this is certainly the was born in fact I, I commented on this in my in my book when I was talking about this book before group psychology I I made one or two erm fairly erm critical comments about, about group, group, group psychotherapy. I would like to think that if Freud were alive today, he would have said the same thing, of course when Freud wrote this book in nineteen twenty one er there was no such thing as group psychotherapy it hadn't been invented yet, it was to become very much after World War Two but partly existed before and perhaps it's past its peak now, but erm it did become very much a after World War Two and the point I made was and this is really wh wh what Heather ha h has just said, that if you take Freud's book on, on group seriously, how can you do group psychoanalysis? You can certainly do group suggestive therapy and here we touch on another point that erm Joy reminds us of and Freud makes quite a bit on the book the parallel between being in a group and being hypnotized, because the, the, the role of the hypnotist is to take over completely you go or the person who has been hypnotized so that in the most extreme cases, as we know, the hypnotized person lapses into a kind of trance, whether a kind of sleeping automaton with no ego and their decisions are now being made for them by the hypnotist who tells them what do to and they, they act as a kind of a, a puppet as if their ego ha has been turned off al al al altogether and clearly there's a parallel here with what Freud's going on in the group. So if you think about it a therapeutic group could certainly use suggestive therapy like hypnosis and my guess is that most successful groups like Alcoholics Anonymous or groups of people who wanna stop smoking or do slimming and things like that succeed for that reason, cos every member of the group reinforces every other member with a kind of group super ego and says look, you mustn't smoke, you mustn't drink, you mustn't put on weight and it, it reinforces every individual's erm super ego by means of identification with the shared value of the group and similarly reduces feelings of shame and guilt if the individual fails the group, cos next week when they come back they say oh dear, I've put on five pounds, erm that they're gonna feel bad about it because it offends against the ideal of the of the group if it's Weight Watchers or something. However, the suggestion is quite different from analysis because as what we've seen what happens in analysis is in analysis the, the individual faces up to their inner and resolves them themselves, it's a kind of a loner solution to use to use, to use Heather's term. The, in analysis you don't get er someone else to do it for you or you don't get the therapist to play the role of your ego which is really what happens in this suggestion. You get your own ego to face up to its own problems and to make its own decisions, er as I mentioned before a very painful process and a, and a, and a rather gruelling one. So it seems to me that you cannot do analysis in a group because by definition the ego of a person in a group is, is detracted from, whereas in individual psychoanalysis and ideally the ego of the person is added to and enlarged to give them more competence by being made to face up to its repressions. So I must say I entirely agree with Heather on this, it seems to me inevitable logic of Freud's theory and erm my own view is that group psychoanalysis is a contradiction in terms, you cannot do psychoanalysis in a group of this and those who say they can I think have n never understood what psychoanalysis is all about and are misleading the public and people pay good money for it. I think if you say you do suggestion therapy in a group, that's fine, that's honest and correct, but to say you can do analysis in a group I think is, is is actually erm erm fraudulent in the sense that it is not true analysis, it must be suggestion therapy. Right. No. Oh, of course the opposite happens in a group, I mean what happens in groups you know therapeutic groups tend to be like this one, they sit in circles and they, they kind of focus on very often on the leader who often plays a very, very powerful role even if they claim not to. Very often in therapeutic groups they do claim not to, but in fact er the leader does play a very dominant role er and even when the attention shifts to members of course, the fact that all the other members are watching them means that their reactions and what they say and think and do in a group would have been very much constrained by their actions and expectations o of the other members. Now erm this is this is archetypical group behaviour, but whatever it is, it cannot necessarily reflect erm that individual's own erm peculiar self as it were using peculiar in the in the strict sense and proper to them, because as we've seen what happens in a group is, is, is the individual . So erm you can't even see the things you're looking at, I don't think in a group for the, for the reason Heather said, because what will happen is, you will see reflecting individual, the values and aspirations of the group and especially the, the disturbing effects of the other members and the leader. What you're not likely to see is the peculiarities of, of the person erm showing themselves and if they do show too much, the likelihood is that the rest of the group will start to erm freeze out that individual, regardless because they're no longer corresponding to the to the ideals of the group and er so consequently, erm I personally have no time for group psychoanalysis and I would never recommend it to anybody, although of course, for non-analytic things like losing weight or in stopping smoking or drinking, there's a lot to be said for it, but one shouldn't confuse that kind of group reinforcement with erm analysis, cos analysis as we've seen is quite different. So that's an important point and one which is not in Freud's book although I'd like to think it would have been, had he written it much later on when, when group erm therapy had become very fashionable. Though my guess is that it is very unfashionable, is that right Dawn, that people think that? Do you think it's less fashionable than it was? And in the in the sixties and seventies it was all the rage, but I've got the feeling it had a Yeah, well therapy of all kinds, I mean That's true, that's true. Mind you Woody is getting on now as er as he reflects the situation of a few years ago. the erm, I mean if there's only one much worse that they know that everyone much better for their Well that's true yes. And so if they er when normally there's only one reason . Yes, I think whenever one makes judgment about therapy being better or worse you have to say er on what criteria and there are certainly certain criteria on which group therapy would do better for certain problems like us making feel people feel better if they had a symptom or problem which erm make them feel worse because, because they felt isolated from the community, so it means other people who have got the same problem makes you feel better erm and er certainly suggestion therapy can produce dramatic results especially in the short run. Th the problem with suggestion therapy whether it be hypnosis or group therapy is it doesn't tend to last in the longer run after the person stopped going to the group or they haven't seen the the er hypnotist for reinforcement. There's a very good example of that some years ago er in one of these groups I had erm a student had a severe stutter problem and he said that he had hypnosis and for two years he was fine, he had no stutter and suddenly one day under stress it came back an and ever since erm then he was having some other kind of treatment I think, but er but that's typical. I in the shorter run erm often suggestion therapy will work, but seldom in the long run and er then it needs reinforcement you need to go back and have more . So, but there is something to be said for it I'm certainly not running it down, what I am saying is you can't . Certain people have claimed that in group psychoanalysis and that I think is fraudulent, because they are not doing analysis they're doing something different and erm I think it is something described I think very well in this book, although of course as we said this was written erm er group therapy . Okay any other points that people want to raise about this? There's one paradox here that I think can confuse people and we ought to talk about a little bit and that is the libidinal aspect. Again Joy mentioned it, because of course it's important, you'd expect in a, in a Freudian theory. The libidinal aspect of, of group membership, now how does that work? What happens to people's libido in a group? Cos this is important and it can be confusing and, and there is t er there is a little of a paradox in here, which will come out even more clearly next week, oh no the week after. The week after when Marie-Anne does civilization and . Can anybody see the the paradox I'm getting at when we talk about the libido in the group? Well let me put it this way er it's the two's company three's a crowd problem. T to what am I ? Two's company, three's a crowd? I think if you had asked Freud what's the minimum number numerically for one of, for the Bond Freud Crowds, Freud would have thought for a bit and I think he would have said three. He certainly wouldn't have said two, why not? Why is two company and three a crowd? They can't be a Er well er perhaps not, but what's the, I mean what's the context in wh wh which people quote that saying? left out and two would interact and Right, right but the two's company and three's a crowd idea is that if you've got er two people, they, they may have er some libidinal interest in each other and they may have a couple, but a third person is, is just a complication. It it's, it's the eternal triangle they're the stuff of which novels and soap operas are made. What wo what would they do without the eternal triangle? Virtually none one suspects, so ca can you see the problem here? The problem is Freud believes in the libido, the libido erm directs you towards another person for gratification and that makes a couple and this can be very gratifying as well. So how on earth can there be a libidinal dimension in a group or a crowd whereas we've already said the minimum number is three and actual number of course is vastly greater. So how can there possibly be a libidinal dimension to crowds if crowds are just erm many more extra points in the eternal triangle? How does Freud get or to refer to Marie-Anne's erm subject couple weeks, how could Freud think that libido was involved in groups when he says in the book that she's gonna tell us about tha that society and civilization erm is in conflict with indiv wi with, with individual's erm libidinal self-interest,th th their personal libidinal desires. Right, now how does that come about? Could you, could you expand that a little bit Duncan? How does the libido of the individual interact because Freud certainly thinks it does? some form of identity group demands of the group. That's certainly true. sorry. Go on. Isn't it that the unconscious and the ego comes through Yes. Right that tends to happen too. So you're So we we expect the libido if anything to be erm to be more evident in a group. What kind of libido are we talking about? Because here I think we see one of the chief reasons why Freud adopted the term libido and why when we talked about libido through last term I said we would see that there were some very good reasons in Freud's erm application of his ideas to society for having this libido and that now we've come to it, what what kind of libido are Dean and Duncan talking about? Because I think we have to make distinctions here between different types of libido. What kind of libido Duncan is involved in the kind of thing we're talking about? Well it's to do with ego ideal. What kind of libido would you think would be involved with the ego ideal? Well, er wouldn't it be narcissism? The idea of love directed towards one's own self is specifically towards one's own ego. You will recall that when we talked about the libido theory, I said that there were erm different one of the reasons why Freud had to introduce the libido theory was he wanted to get away from the narrow biological reproductive concept of sex to do with genitals and reproduction which is of course he'd want to expand it to include psychological never seen before er or never seen before so clearly, such as erm love of the self and, and this he gave the name narcissism, well he didn't actually, somebody else invented it not long before and he took it over very quickly. Er narcissism and narcissism, narcissistic libido is, is, is that part of libido which is concerned with the ego and it is this aspect of the libido especially which is involved in a group, because as I think erm somebody said over here when developing this point, this leads to for example a group narcissism. What do I mean by group narcissism? That's right. That's right. I mean erm you know erm when I go to the London Group erm we all know that erm actually er there's a kind of, there's an inner feeling you know well we've got the right computers, we, we're the you know, we, we believe computing and we, we're very sorry you know we're erm we may not actively despise them, but we, we're sorry that they have to bother with such an awful operating system and everything else. So there's a kind of feeling, and this happens in all groups doesn't it that, that a group to which one's which one identifies, there's a kind of feeling erm you know, we're, we're the members and there's something special about us and er at the best we're sorry for the non-members, we'd like to have more of them and so we might proselytize and preach the gospel, you know you know throw away your idioms, become or in the worst possible way we might be an exclusive group and say we are, we are erm special, we are we, we know the truth and everybody else is infidels and you know they should be killed or driven out or or in some ways discriminated against because they're wrong and we're right. Because we're right we're we, we're, we're better people as a result, so th th there's a tendency just as in individuals can get proud and even arrogant and self-satisfied, so does the tendency for groups to get proud, arrogant and self-satisfied because and what fuels this group erm feeling is narcissism. It's not the heterosexual strand of the libido because there of course there is a problem. As far as heterosexual object libido is concerned, three is a crowd and two is ideal. Two's company, three's a crowd, but when you're talking about this generalized and more desexualized supplemented narcissistic libido to do with ego, then of course three is not a crowd in fact three erm is, is, er is the is er just as easy to accommodate as three thousand or three million, because it's, it can be channelled into the group. However, how does that come about, I mean if supposing you were a, a member of a very large group like the Catholic Church getting on to a billion people say, well you can't possibly identify with a billion other people you can't meet them in one lifetime let alone ties with them, so how does, how does narcissistic libido unify the members of vast groups like the Catholic Church? How does it actually come about, because you couldn't meet the majority of in a lifetime. Everyone can Right. shared value. The, as, as, as, as, as you both say the, the narcissistic libido of the individual is concerned initially with their own ego. The, the group usually has a leader or symbols which represent its aspirations like the statue of the Virgin Mary or, or Golden Churches or something to which act as representatives or icons for the aspirations, the ideals of the individual's ego and every member of the group shares those, that leader or those icons or those ideals and consequently the group is unified by a kind of sentry petal flow of individual narcissistic libido towards the centre, towards the leader and that makes them more identifiable with each other. So that the erm we really are again and this is what this diagram in Freud's book is supposed to illustrate that the, the erm every every individual ego has its own ego ideal and objects external objects like erm say the Pope can become the focus of this erm individualistic narcissistic libido because every individual identifies the Pope with their own ego ideal. So every Catholic feels an identification with every other Catholic because they've got a considerable aerial overlap in their, in their ego ideals and er narcissistic libido is directed towards the central focus. So it's not as, it, it's erm uniformly spread everywhere in the first place, it's directed first at the focus and then when you meet another person whom you realize has the same ego ideal, then you identify them, with them by a kind of secondary erm secondary identification. What about Well. Well, well his parents I mean the extreme Protestants are, are on the rise I mean in South America you know I mean the world's largest Pentecostal Churches are in Lima and Peru and millions are now becoming erm born-again Christians in South America. Erm so erm but of course I mean t to make the point because it doesn't really contradict what you're saying Heather because of course the rather more extreme kinds of Protestant Sects that do emphasise for example erm er narrow dogmatic teaching much more so you could say that erm and I think this would perhaps be the answer to, to Oliver's point to some extent because it goes back to Dean's original point that erm here we're we we're talking about a general theory of groups, but of course some groups can be more groupie than others. Some groups can be more individualistic where the individual identifies less strongly, there are fewer icons, there's less erm dogmatic er certainty about doctrine and so on, so more room for an individual variation and those groups will be relatively er looser and there would be less identification of the individual with the leader or the leading principals. Other groups however, possibly smaller ones or more erm or, or more er or ones that are kind of more fired up with er,wi wi with with feelings of group membership, you find the opposite, you find stronger identifications, more emphasis on leaders and consequently followers. So, so what we're talking, we're not saying you know there are groups and there're individuals and there's a gap in between, what we're saying is there's a kind of continuum from very groupie groups where the individual is, is practically hypnotized by the, by, by, by, by the group to erm more or less complete individualism where individuals belong to, to emotional groups that are very, very weak and where identification with the with the sentries is pretty pretty minimal. erm you know like for instance I mean erm I mean I suppose I feel British but I mean I don't feel I have any very strong identification with with other British people because there are so many other people in the world speak English and erm often people from other countries who in many ways you identify with them more. So, but still I suppose I have some residual identification with, with my own ethnic national group. it's not one that will inspire me with erm with, with great kind of nationalistic fervour as might have happened in the past when, when you look at nationalistic movements, so erm presumably we're looking at a range of behaviour which goes from extreme fanatical group membership to relatively weak identification with a group but really doesn't to anything else but saying you know if you ask me what I'll say I was British. Well that doesn't mean very much. Does that answer your question? So we know, we should and remember of course that in the book Freud chooses two examples as Joy told me the church and the army and these are just examples and of course Freud chooses them partly because they're very big groups so they in some ways they er exemplify the principles he's talking about because clearly in a small group like this you could say well look, what is going on is really I mean we all have, we all know each other and it's a face-to-face group and really what happens here is an of the dynamics group and I think it is actually. For example one notices over many years of you know having teaching I must have taught hundreds now in different class groups, can't help noticing that although you're the same, subject is the same, the syllabus is the same, the reading list is the same, the room is the same, the time of day may be the same, but the groups are completely different. Some classes erm go with a buzz and everybody gets a lot out of it you think you know oh that was that was worthwhile, we achieved something. Other classes struggle all the time, to get anything done you feel you know why are we having this class, we're not making erm it's not making a lot of educational sense and one comes to the conclusion after many years of bitter experience that it personal dynamics, it depends on who's in the group and some groups erm this one successful and some groups which I won't mention are relatively unsuccessful and one feels okay that's because of the inter-personal, it's who's in the group and how they interact with each other and try as one might, I suppose I play th the leading role in this group try as one might, one can't change the group, but, but clearly these are not th the examples that Freud chooses are really big groups where the kind of factors he's talking about comes through very clearly because y y you cannot explain what happens in the Catholic Church or an army. so he chooses the examples he does to illustrate his, his theory and of course he's chosen inevitably good examples. Well, yes sorry perhaps I myself. I meant not in the same way. at the end of the day there must be something Oh I'm sure that's true. Yes now what I meant was that, that erm in a group like this, the the th th the leader or the leadership role may be relatively minimal and the individualism of the members may be relevant, but I hope it was cos I I think it's a mistake for class in groups and that so one would hope in this kind of group, the individual variation would be so important that these kind of group phenomena that Freud is talking about in this book but clearly in other groups they're they're more important, partly because you can never organize a group by kind of having a meeting with everybody. I mean you couldn't have a meeting with the whole Catholic Church for example to decide on doctrine. So what happens of course in an institution like that is the the leaders define the doctrine congregation for the doctrine of the faith, lays down the doctrine of the faith and then the believers are then obliged to believe it. The followers a a are obliged to believe it and so the faith, the creed of the Catholic Church then becomes an article of membership and if you don't subscribe to the creed, then this has implications for your standing in the group and you can for example be persecuted and Catholics not believing, whereas in a group like this, I don't think we need a creed, we certainly wouldn't persecute anybody because we didn't believe a particular thing, because we can all negotiate our personal relations face- to-face. Do you see, that's what I meant by it. Yeah, this is just Mm. Oh, it does, oh it does yes. Oh, this, this is a very important book of course and one of the, one of the astonishing things is the way totally ignored and if you look through even people who write about psychoanalyses and the social sciences and there's a lot of them, this book is hardly ever mentioned and I, I normally nowadays routinely look for it in the, in the references and index an and many books th that purport to talk about groups and sociology is never mentioned I think, and those that do don't ever seem to understand what it says. An astonishing fact. Well look folks we'll have to stop now it's gone eleven and I have to give a lecture Joy, er that was an excellent er summary, well done. As I said I'll be talking about this in the next couple of weeks in the lectures and I hope to cover various things we didn't have time to touch on. Next week we're being entertained by Heather. Now. Oh, first thing is last week's summary. Let me pass that round. Just pass that round, that's last week's summary. Today's lecture is on erm what you might call female interest in sex and in particular in in the concept of erm female choice and I was struck er this morning by looking at Nature. Nature of course as you know is the world's leading science journal and er I have to read Nature every week. The reason why of course and I take this as a matter of pride because er not only am I, I think probably the only member of the L S E as published in Nature recently, but erm er the other thing I take pride in is the fact that erm one really can't ignore it, because all the time stuff is being published in the world's leading science journal which is directly relevant to this course and how many other courses are in L S E are like that? For example a couple of weeks ago there was a thing on tit for tat and this week there's a fascinating thing on snakes and female sexuality which erm illustrates er some of the points I'll be, I'll, I'll be making and although as Sue rightly says erm, most of the articles in Nature are rather technical and difficult to understand if you're not a specialist they do make concessions to the rest of us by publishing very often erm summaries er in the first part of the journal erm and there is one on this and er I can recommend that. In fact I'll, I'll Xerox it and pass it round if people are interested. I also find Yeah. Yeah. Alright, I, I borrowed this one from the Senior Common Room. But it is in the library, it's in the library erm every week, so m my, you know you can get it down the down the library. Oh no, I wouldn't I wouldn't recommend anything to. I mean it's far too technical an and I, I, I wouldn't either, but erm it's er as I said, it's just er it was struck me as coincidentally since I was talking about this, this today. Okay now you remember I said that the key concept in our modern understanding of sex and sexual behaviour . One of the virtues of parental investment er theory I would say is that er it's particularly sensitive to female interests in, in in sexuality and nobody who knows me or has read er my works would, could possibly suspect me here of fashionable feminist prejudices er so I don't say this because I think this is what people like to hear, but because I happen to think it's true, I'm afraid I'm one of these old-fashioned and you may think stupid people who believe that you should er say things cos you think they're true, not because you think er it's what you think want w want to hear or if you say it, you'll be accused of sexual harassment by a lecturer as I was last year. Erm the daring to the daring to say things which I did, did think were true, but I knew were true because many of them were facts. Erm the reason why parental investment theory is is particularly sensitive to, to the female point of view of course is as we've seen one of the fundamental consequence of anisogamy is the fact that females normally invest more in offspring than do males, whereas males concentrate on mating success normally, females normally concentrate on erm parental, in individual offspring. So the divorce of sex from reproduction which is erm a very common and even fashionable view in the later twentieth century and of course is one very much facilitated by modern birth control technology and things like that this, this divorce of sex and reproduction is in a way you could say a characteristically male way of looking at things if the male's er contribution to offspring doesn't go much further than the initial fertilization. For males sex may be very important, but for females reproduction may be, may be more significant if it involves as it does in the case of all mammals and certainly human beings, considerable parental investment on the part of the mother. So I think that er to put parental investment theory centre stage is more reliable and better than the rather old-fashioned biological approach which in talking about sex emphasise things like sex chromosomes and hormones, so that a sex chromosome in a mammal for instance was something that a male had but a female didn't and this gave rise to hormonal effects like those of testosterone erm which are thought to be very important. Well these things may er describe erm sexual behaviour and how to facilitate it, but they can't explain it and nor are they really fundamental, because after all okay in mammals males may be the sex defined by the X chromosome, but in birds it's the other way round in birds it's the female chromosome and all, in other words, all bird embryos start, start out as male and differentiate into females if they're going to, whereas in mammals all embryos start out as female and differentiate into males, in so far as those terms have any sense. So it seems to me that parental investment erm theory is, is much better because not only is it universally applicable, it also explains why the sexes a are, are the way they are in ultimate evolutionary terms and that talk about hormones and sex chromosomes never can do. Now if we took this view about parental investment theory, it would immediately erm concentrate our attention if we're talking about human beings as we are in this course on er one critical factor which er is astonishingly important and that is er body fat. Now you may say well why, why does body fat matter er for female reproductive success and the answer to that if you think about it is pretty easy. A female mammal is if you like erm the egg in in other classes of higher animals a female lays an egg, the egg contains all the nutrients or possibly incubated. In the case of a mammal, the egg is retained within the body so the mother's body is effectively another part of the egg providing it through the placenta with nutrients and so on. So the state of the mother's body is critical for the reproductive success of any implanted egg. This probably explains why menarche the age of which er menstruation begins menarche er why the age of menarche has dropped progressively in the last century from about fifteen and a half to about twelve and a half er today. The reason appearing to be that menarche is weight-triggered and in particular is turned on by er body weight reaching erm a certain proportion I think it's about eighteen percent of weight erm erm represented by body fat triggers, triggers menarche. There is some evidence Sorry, twenty four percent, twenty four percent body weight erm about a quarter in other words when, when a young woman's body is about one quarter fat, she can start menstruating for obvious reasons. There is some residual evidence that daylight length may be a factor and that the invention of electric light has also lowered the age of menarche but this effect is not erm absolutely clear and there's some controversy about it. Most people think if it, if it's, if it's real at all it's er it's much less important than weight. Of course few quantitative studies have been done of this, but those that we have show pretty unmistakable results. A study of the Atchee hunter gatherers in Paraguay show that a woman's body weight was erm directly related to her reproductive success as was her age of menarche in other words the younger the younger menarche and the heavier the woman, the greater her lifetime reproductive success and this again er shouldn't surprise us. Another one of the most er interesting bits of evidence about this is the rate of fraternal twinning. Now as you know, there are two types of twins tha that people can have. You can have fraternal twins, in which case the relatedness is a half and the twins although they were born together result from two def separate eggs, they were separately fertilized. So in other words they were just like any other sibling, just happens to be they were erm conceived at the same time and er developed in the womb together. Identical twins have relatedness R equals one genetic identical every gene in one is represented in the other and they result from a split in a fertilized egg which splits into two and then each develops as if it were,wer were a separate egg. Now the rate of identical twinning erm is remarkably constant which suggests that it, whatever causes it is relatively independent of other factors. Perhaps it's erm some kind of mistake in the way erm cells divide after they've been fertilized, I don't know, but this is not true of fraternal twinning. Studies in Europe for instance show that er in populations which experienced starvation during World War Two such as the Netherlands, the rate of fraternal twinning dropped dramatically during the war, but then recovered to its pre-war level after the war, and this strongly suggests that the rate of fraternal twinning was related to how much food women were eating, and when they were starved they were less likely to two eggs than when they were fell fed. This is an affect well known in some domesticated animals like sheep, it's well known that if sheep are, if, if, if, if ewes are well fed just before they mate, they're much more likely to er to twin than if they're er not given extra food supplement and nowadays erm farmers wh wh who, who breed sheep for lambing er frequently feed, feed ewes a special diet just before er conception for that very reason, the rate of twinning increases. So this again is quite interesting evidence for er for the importance of, of body fat for female reproductive success. Another interesting erm angle on this is, is anorexia nervosa. Anorexia is a relatively modern illness er the first descriptions of it are found in the nineteenth century and today it's er by no means an uncommon illness in er mainly in young women, very occasionally in men, but, but er y it's more or less safe to say it's er it's a disease of er women and almost always younger women. It's hardly ever reported in the Third World and er taking the facts that we've just been talking about into account, it would be tempting to see anorexia as related to conflicts about the beginning of a young woman's reproductive life because what normally happens is, and has certainly happened in the only case of this that occurred in my family, the young woman in question lost so much weight that she stopped cycling and in fact erm puberty changes went into reverse, she actually regressed, she started puberty and er she had this anorexia problem and she stopped cycling and, and all her body changes reversed, she went back to to pre-puberty again erm because of oh no, oh no it didn't, she lost her body hair and stuff yeah, er her, her, her hormonal changes. Mind you, she was starving herself to the point of endangering her life and had to be hospitalized, but er oh no, her hormon her hormon well her hormonal changes went into reverse, they absolutely did. Erm, so it's tempting to see er anorexia as part of this whole picture, because it usually happens in younger women usually at the beginning of their reproductive careers and there is usually, or so therapists report, conflict usually with parents related to things like career, er possible choice of marriage partner which erm create conflict about the young, about the young woman's er future reproductive life. So it would be erm it would seem natural to think that anorexia fits into this picture somewhere. Admittedly the details may be complicated, but erm it, it certainly seems that these, our knowledge about fat and reproductive success may erm throw some light on this. In other words fat issue it's probably an issue. Now erm all this really goes back to eighteen seventy one. As we know er Darwin published his great work in eighteen fifty nine cos he had to, he really didn't want to but was forced, but in eighteen seventy one he published another important book called the Descent of Man or Evolution in Relation to Sex and in this book Darwin established a principle, which a which at the time he was widely criticized and ridiculed and this was the principle of female choice. Essentially what Darwin realized was that sexual dimorphism, particularly where it makes the male spectacularly different from female is not always the outcome of inter-male conflict, very often it is, we saw examples of the films of stags, of erm elephant seals, those kinds of animals where the dimorphic differences appear to be the result of inter-male conflict, for instance elephant seals are seven times heavier, the males are seven times heavier than the females on average because sheer weight is what wins those astonishing battles they have on the beaches when they, they kind of lunge at each other. They have these enormous canine teeth again stabbing each other and the thick blubber round the neck again as a defence and if the canines go in they go into the blubber and not to arteries and stuff like that. So a modern sexual dimorphism is explicable in terms of erm inter-male er conflict and it may be in the case of human beings er most of them are, for example the larger body weight of males that we saw when we looked at sexual dimorphism in human beings is probably explicable erm in terms of inter-male conflict like it is in chimpanzees. Er my guess is that beards may be the same. I don't know what you think about this, but what occurs to me is this, supposing you had to kill somebody with your bare hands, how would you do it?suggestion. You gotta kill me. The obvious thing is to strangle okay? Erm we haven't got anybody here with a beard so we can't demonstrate and anyway it would be a dangerous experiment if we did, but supposing you tried to strangle me and I've got a big beard you know, a kind of Karl Marx style beard well a big beard, er you get your hands round my neck and what can I do? I can do that and if I pull my beard I'm gonna loosen your grip. So my suggestion and this is only a suggestion, the beards which in the past have been interpreted as a kind of erm epigrammatic signal, in other words a kind of erm sign on the face of the male as they're deceived , my guess is that,th that beards may actually have evolved to protect the throat because erm the critical thing in, in killing somebody is to block the, the windpipe and that's and in fact even, even lions do this, you saw in the film when a lion kills an antelope or something, he doesn't go to all the trouble of making horrible gashes, he grabs the, the windpipe and holds on until the antelope or whatever it is is just er Most predators do. It, it Yeah. Yeah. Well perhaps they do that too. Perhaps they do that too unless the canines go each side of the when they squeeze the windpipe. Anyway of course, actually while you mention canine teeth Sue, it's worth pointing out that canine teeth are usually for use, use on other males. Er it's true that hunting animals like for instance er female cats, the cat family, lionesses and we know lionesses do most of the hunting, not the males that do the hunting normally, they have canine teeth. However the males have got bigger canine teeth and certainly in most mammals er for instance horses, males have big bigger canine teeth most primates. Chimpanzees for instance have enormous canine teeth, but the males have them and not the females, so the idea here is that normally a big canine tooth, a sexually dimorphic canine tooth is probably related to inter-male conflict, rather than to killing and, and whether, how that affects your er what you say about the spacing I'm not sure, but certainly it would be a safe erm generalization to say normally big canines are an aspect of sexual dimorphism and in mammals are very common. So what was I saying? Oh yes, erm perhaps beards are more to do wi with, with inter-male conflict than anything er and most of the other characteristics are. Erm the one element in human sexual dimorphism if you can call it that, strictly speaking it isn't, its primary sex difference is the size of the human penis. Nobody knows why it's er it's as big as it is, female choice is a possibility, only a possibility, but er it's hard to know otherwise why, why it is that way. Erm now it, it's interesting to point out that female choice and of course one of the best examples of that is birds where the female chooses not, you saw it on the film, but this is just a reminder. Where the female chooses not so much the male as what the male's got is erm female choice as I said when Darwin suggested was widely ridiculed, partly because i it, it contradicted Victorian prejudices. People said things like for instance well females aren't intelligent enough to make choices and er which is, which is clearly pretty silly, and er there was also I think and the uncomfortable erm prospect that females could in some way or another control the evolution in males which I don't think it appealed to the Victorians either and in fact many social Darwinists like Edward Westermark for example rejected the whole concept of sexual selection as Darwin called it the female choice, because it didn't promote survival of the fittest. Erm peacocks' tails may make them beautiful and more reproductively successful with peahens, but they don't make them fitter in terms of erm life expectancy. On the contrary peacocks don't live long in the wild because of those enormous tails make them easy to catch for predators. So if peacocks' er fitness as understood by social Darwinists is, is, is, is, is reduced, but erm and this was one of the reasons why they, why they liked the idea of erm female choice and er the call, so called sexual selection. The the consequence of course you want to say something? No they don't erect them when a, when a predator comes along, they just run or fly if they can. Sometimes there are displays that are erm,b but like erm the lizards that have frills, but I think you find them in both sexes because you see if it's to scare off a predator, why doesn't the female have them? And my guess is the peahen normally would. I don't know about the frilled lizard. Er Oh yes, you get that, you get that kind of mimicry, but again you'd expect it in, in, in both sexes I should think, unless it just happens that males for example normally are bigger and then it's taken on a, a secondary characteristic which is a possibility. I honestly don't know the answer to that. Okay, erm so the consequence of this and as I said this is not fashionable feminism this is, this is, this is real science. That the consequence of this is that we can no longer take the view of females as being passive victims of male advances. Often it looks as if they are, erm but they don't need to be. Here's a here's an example of this in book. This is a stag. Now you might think well stags have harem groups and they've got these enormous antlers and they could bully and er I mean a harem group looks kind of fascist kind of social structure you know when a male dominates female, but in fact field observations of how stags actually deal with their females show that they're very tender erm towards them and they have to have the cooperation of the female in order to mount. In fact if you think about it, erm any quadruped or mammal can easily stop a male mounting. You don't often see photos of this I've only ever found one, here's one, or I did find one. This is un the top, the top one, well and the bottom one, unsuccessful mounting attempts by male jackals, sorry hyenas, male hyenas on, on a female. The female erm just doesn't want to know. In fact this is more interesting than you may think because female hyenas have a pseudo-penis, they have, they have a pseudo-scrotum and a pseudo-penis, reasons which aren't fully understood and in order to mate, the male has to insert his real penis into the female pseudo-penis in order to reach her her genital and it's a bit complicated. So if the female doesn't want it and this one clearly doesn't, she just sits down and if she sits on her pseudo-penis, there's no way the male is ever gonna get into her, but in fact this is true er in, in general terms of er if you think about it a, a female quadrupedal mammal I mean it looks like male domination, the male mounts and it looks as if she has to submit but she doesn't. All she has to do is to walk away, he can't walk cos his fore legs are on her back back legs are on the ground. If she moves forward, there's no way that he's gonna get anywhere with her. I remember making this point a couple of years ago, yeah I made this point last year and I showed these pictures, I spent about twenty minutes on it, the following week I was, I was libelously accused and it was a libel, it was a serious libel erm er that I, that I said that females always had to submit erm I was very angry about that. Pity it wasn't in the national newspapers because my lawyer said I could have retired on the proceeds. laugh, unfortunately you can't erm can't erm when I was giving this similar lecture two or three years ago, erm there was er a student in the class she put up her hand she said yes, she said that's absolutely right she said, what you're saying about the female doesn't have to submit she said I used to work as a, as a stable maid at Newmarket at a stud farm and she said er you've gotta have five people for er er to cover a mare. You have one on each leg erm and one erm on the bridle and apparently they use special tools that er hobble the mare and stop her moving, so she hasn't got any choice and when they lead the stallion in, they got these five guys there erm with these various tools and they make, hold the mare still to make sure the stallion can mount, because apparently very often the mares won't have it and th they kick or they walk away. Yeah, yeah, but remember that these, these are expensive race horses you see, this is er Yeah, yeah, yeah. But you see the point I'm making that, that in mammals it's easy to get the impression that, that you know er particularly in, in, in, in er harem-type mammals like, like, like erm stags, that the males mount and females submit, they don't. Not only of course u u unfortunately of course and Sue, Sue mentions there are tragic exceptions to this and one tragic exception i is human beings because unfortunately it is possible for a male human being to force er a female at intercourse because we tend to do it lying down and males are bigger and stronger. And hands er I don't think rape could happen if we were quadrupedal, much more difficult. Erm so quite apart from fro from that, this approach to the whole question concentrating on parental investment and female choice would not only make us sensitive to to female choice in the sense of either submitting to a male or not but secondly it would make us er wonder what happened even after a female had mated and we could predict couldn't we that females ought to be discriminating abou about the subsequent fate of any fertilized erm zygote and indeed there's plenty of evidence to show that human females highly discriminated and far from passive even after they've been fertilized. For example, in er twenty five erm percent of cases er of infertility in women as reported by infertility clinics there's an antibody reaction to sperm. In other words a woman's immune system is er able to deploy erm er antibodies against a, a, a, against sperm. In ten to fifteen percent of fertilized zygotes there will be no implantation and er forty two percent that do implant will fail to cycle and will be re-absorbed again. So it's a very high proportion we're talking about. er in other words what I'm saying is that erm a woman doesn't have to accept a fertilized er egg once it's been fertilized. Er twenty eight percent for instance of all embryos er will be spontaneously aborted and in England and Wales mothers of large families, which I think was defined as more than six children, er had more spontaneous abortions than others. In sixty percent of spontaneous abortions the foetuses are normal and thirty percent in the first trimester show gross chromosomal abnormalities. In other words, it looks as if mothers erm actively discriminate against er embryos which are not normal and are not gonna develop into into in in into er offspring who will survive. Yeah, oh yes, yes, but the point is that the mother knows it's she's not her reproductive system is not a passive erm I mean you see how it looks in Yes, exactly, look exactly. I in a mammal it looks as if that the mother's body i is, is an oven, and once you've put the bun in, it's gonna rise it's not like that. The point I'm making is that in fact erm a woman's reproductive system discriminates actively. One of the most astonishing pieces of evidence for this comes from a study of two hundred and sixty eight female prisoners in the U S these are all convicted criminals. They had three hundred and seventy three live children between them and on average they should of had twenty seven children with birth defects if they'd been the same as the rest of the population, the non-criminal, non-prison erm erm erm non-prison population. In fact they had none at all. However their entire spontaneous miscarriage. So the implication of that study and it's a rather astonishing one, although it fits exactly with, with the argument we're developing is that because these, these women were living in very difficult circumstances, in prison, they were even more discriminating about the offspring they were actually and they didn't carry a single one to term that had a birth defect. So the idea is that the more difficult the the situation the mother finds herself is in the more likely she is to spontaneously abort and the more likely any retained er foetus is to be normal an and, and to, and not to have any defects. Another example of that for instance, and this is something we'll, we'll have to wait a full explanation of this we'll have to wait a little bit later itself. At least seventy three percent of all foetuses aborted in the first trimester are male. This suggests that er mothers discriminate against male offspring Seventy three percent. Seventy three percent in the first trimester, in other words the first three months are male. Now er let's just accept that as a fact as we go by erm it looks as if mothers not only discriminate against un un unfit offspring, but also against males. Why they discriminate against males must wait. where do you get the No, no oh in the general population. In the general This is the general population and as you will see this, this er patches on the whole issue of sex ratios and what is known as the Trivers Woolard effect and I'll explain that later cos it's so important. We have a separate thing on sex ratios and I'll explain why males are discriminated against in this, in this respect cos as we'll see there's a profound er reason why er this should happen. Finally, and this is a suggestion on my own, although actually I discovered afterwards it was also made by somebody else, erm but it does seem in many ways er erm an obvious interpretation, is this could be the background also to post-natal depression. Post-natal depression is a distressing phenomenon where women who have just given birth feel fed up, weepy, don't like the baby, don't want to be mothers, can't really take an interest in it. It's a very distressing erm syndrome for many women and er there's quite a lot of evidence that it's hormonally linked and most women suffer from it in one way or another. Some admittedly have it much worse than others, but nearly all women er seem to, seem to have it erm to some extent and one wonders why. Well, the Mexico City earthquake if you will recall some years ago, buried a maternity hospital on the day of the quake. All the mothers died at once. However fourteen days later they were still pulling out er live babies and they'd been in there in the rubble for fourteen days. They had nothing to drink, nothing to eat, they kind of hibernated and apparently they lapsed into a state of, of a kind of hibernation and inactivity, but they were still alive and they were alive when they, when they were pulled out fourteen days later. The reason probably is that human neonates, the newborn human beings have much more subcutaneous fat than any other primate. If you look at a new-born gorilla or chimpanzee they seem skinny little things compared with human babies. Human babies are usually fairly plump when they're born, they've got considerable subcutaneous fat. My suggestion is that the evolution of subcutaneous fat in neonates and post-natal depression is an example of co-evolution and what has happened is mothers are programmed to be depressed for the first few days after birth because in primal conditions when remember this is where evolution set the parameters of human behaviour, in primal conditions it would probably pay a mother to test her new-born offspring to see if it could survive, because if it was defective or if it was sickly, or if there was some reason why that baby couldn't make it to adulthood and its own reproductive life, that mother should not invest in it, because that's her reproductive success. So it might pay a mother to wait for a few days and see what happened to the baby. A healthy baby might survive, and unhealthy one might not. Sue you're sceptical. I'm a bit worried about that ninety percent I see Yes. Yes, I heard that, I've heard that theory. My But it does happen in that way. Yeah it does happen in that way m my,m my explanation of that though is that it's true,i it could just be a hormonal side effect. It could just be that and of course it would be very naive to assume that evolution had adapted us always to be happy with everything. In fact if you think about it evolution might promote your reproductive success by making you vaguely unhappy most of the time, cos that might make you strive for more success. So it would certainly be naive to think that whenever people felt unhappy erm it was er was some kind of pathology and that, that evolution couldn't explain it, and it may just be that the women feel a bit fed up because of hormonal changes and it doesn't awfully much, it's just one of things you pay for being a mother. . Well not immediately no. and it's and it's certainly hormonally linked and at first of course a woman doesn't have milk, she has colostrum. Yes, not very much But you see my explanation may be that because of that erm the, the onset of post-natal depression is slightly postponed because erm the mother needs a signal from the baby or in her breasts signal that will then start changes in her breast tissue which will produce milk when the time comes. So she needs the baby to do that and at that point once her milk production schedule is under way as it were, at that point when, just before she's about to start giving them, then she should test the baby because that's the big energetic cost to her. The energetic cost is providing milk. She can have the colostrum anyway. Yeah, oh yes. Sure, oh I can imagine. Well it's just an idea yeah it's just an idea,i it may not be right nobody's I, I mean it may not be right, but it, I mean as I think you can see it has a kind of logic about it, erm and, and i it may be that it, it's not the right explanation, but the very fact that erm we're suggesting it, I think shows that erm again it's naive to think that motherhood is a kind of er is a one-sided affair where you know mothers sacrifice themselves er for their offspring, because nature demands it. At the very least this theory about post-natal depressions shows it's not that simple, the mother has a self-interest as well as the offspring and our modern insight into parental investment theory shows us that we have to take every individual's self-interest seriously we're not committing th the, the crude errors of group selectionism and saying you know mothers exist for the benefit of society to have children, they should put up with it. I mean the trouble with group selectionistic thinking is you, you completely discount the costs that some people pay for the benefits of others and so oh well, you know everybody benefits from mothers erm having children and sacrificing themselves to their offspring. Our modern parental investment individualistic view wouldn't allow you to make that error, instead you'd say you know you've gotta look at the costs and benefits of the mother too and perhaps there are benefits to mothers in actively testing as it were their offspring, erm rather than just passively er accepting that they're gonna have to be mothers and gonna have to get on with it and again you see, er I would er and this may have been the big mistake I made last year, er but again I stand by my er view on this and it's a perfectly defensible one, erm again I think those who say that abortion is unnatural and kind of erm offends against er you know nature, are wrong. I mean that the data on spontaneous abortion is so unmistakable that it seems to me that artificially induced abortions are just a continuation with modern technology of something women have always done anyway discriminate against their ab about their offspring, sometimes discriminating against them. So those who say arti artificial abortion is unnatural, are I think er on a, on, on, skating on very thin ice, because you could equally well argue that it was just a continuation of a natural trend. If this doesn't happen it's almost like it's never happened any other way Yeah that's right yeah Yes. Yes, but you see the, the, yes an and that of course is a is i is a good one. As I said at the beginning I think one should be wary about using the word natural, because sometimes people use it you know to promote something you know like on advertising you know it's natural, must be good for you, but at the same time there are certain things that are natural that are very bad for you like death and if I were to say you know death is natural, nobody would think I was advocating suicide of course not. Well sorry, I, I just mentioned that in passing but Yeah Well er in general I would say that erm and this goes back to my earlier discussion o of, of the pleasure principle. It would seem that erm i it wasn't in the interests of one's ultimate reproductive success to be too easily satisfied too much of the time because remember, it's a question of relative reproductive success an and the individual that gets that little extra is is effectively gonna be, gonna be the one selected, so yes I would think that erm it's probably naive to think that natural selection would, would make you feel er satisfied and content all the time it would probably induce erm a state of mild chronic discontent which is I think what most people actually experience in life Yes then you're less likely Right. Well possibly and less likely to enjoy it, I mean I've made a complete failure of my life, so I'm, I'm not and I never really enjoyed from the beginning I must say Well, well if I'd been given the choice, erm you know if they'd said you know okay you're next, you going I'd have said no thanks, send somebody else, but er Well well perhaps not, erm no my life was all a terrible mistake erm i i i it was because of the doctor was too stupid to diagnose breast cancer when he saw it, urged my mother to have another baby told her it was a mastectomy erm er sorry erm sorry mastitis er and it would help if she had another baby and it was of course was actually cancer, it was a disaster. But there we are thus on such er tiny threads do entire lives hang. Where did we get to before we got into this? Er oh yes abortion yes now coming back to the point about abortion. One of the, and this we'll get on to later when we talk about culture, the culture problem. It seems to me you see that it's, it's naive to think that there's a complete divorce between culture and technology like for instance abortion technology or birth control technology and nature. It seems to me what actually happens if you think about it is that, is that technology and culture builds on trends that already have a natural foundation. For example birth control, you see you could use the same argument, you could say oh the Catholics say birth control is unnatural and we know they have a whole position on that and yet the data on infertility shows that in fact most women generate antibodies to some sperm, so the, those datas suggest that actively discriminating against sperm on the part of the women is actually natural and all that is happening in modern birth control technology is that women are developing or building on a natural er foundation that is already there namely to be choosy about when they become pregnant and by whom. So and I would extend the same argument to abortion and I would say erm wh what happens in abortion admittedly erm an artificial abortion mean means that presumably a spontaneous abortion has hasn't happened, but a modern woman is using extra means that she has er at her disposal, probably to deal with extra problems which evolution originally could not foresee and ultimately her self-interest might be just as well served by having er induced the abortion ultimately as it would by erm by not having but I mean this is just my personal view, and I don't Well yes, I think, I think their view is dominated by the old group selectionist or point that women are there to do their duty Yeah, that females are there to do their deed for the species or the race or whatever an and er and indeed I mean not so long ago you know in our own country I mean I think it's a moral issue Yeah, oh it is a moral issue yeah. But the, the link between sex and reproduction is always likely to be more critical to a woman So, so, so you see th th the point I'm making is these insights seem to me to be to have a kind of relevance to er women's experience of sex that is some ways greater than it is to male males can you know once they've done their fertilizing work, they're, they're really through as far as erm as far as biology is concerned, not perhaps as far as social . Were you gonna say something Sue? Oh I think so, I mean I, again I hope there aren't any Catholics in the audience who are offended by my remarks, but it's just my personal opinion, that yeah,th th you know,th th that is the case and at the least I mean whatever judgment one makes about this thing, I, I repeat what I said earlier about you gotta be terribly careful when using the word natural. I think it's unscientific, prejudicial and subjective to use it in a term that carries any kind of recommendation or erm disapprobation and er I think, I think one has to exercise caution in erm in the way you use tha tha that, that term, perhaps it's better not to, not to use it at all. Well that makes a kind of convenient break actually, because what I wanted to start on er then was things which really perhaps ought to be postponed till, till next. What I wanna talk about next week is some er peculiarities of human female erm adaptations such as concealed oestrus and menstrual synchronization. Just before we leave it, er to come back to the nature it's quite interesting, what these people found was they studied adders in I think Denmark and what they found was adders adders copulate, but females can store semen for months. They counted the number of the copulations and they found the females were copulating much more than they needed in order to have, have offspring, so the big problem is why do female adders go to all the trouble of extra copulations with extra males when they could easily just make do with one or two and store the semen, and er the consequence as you could have predicted I think having attended my lectures, is that there does seem to be selection for erm sperm competition in male adders and the, the supposition seems to be that females are openly inciting male sperm competition, because they're mating with many more males than they need to and there doesn't seem to be another gain, they don't get provisioning from a male, they, all they get is sperm. The question is why they enjoy sex Sorry what makes what more likely? Sex. The female Yes. She's more likely to indulge Yes. some behaviour like that. Yes it might, but the authors don't mention it actually as a possibility. Perhaps you ought to write in to Nature. why females have orgasms. Mm. I mean if males have orgasms why shouldn't Well that's next week's Yeah, I agree with that, I, I agree with that. That's the Alexander Noonan theory we'll be talking about that. Yes, as you'll see I mean basically I think the erm the reason is they just need to hang on until the male's finished, but we'll we'll come to that next week. Well we'll begin the Parish Council er er with apologies. We have apologies from m John Holmes . And apologies from Mrs Armstrong, the other District Councillor. Have you got the minutes of the previous meeting? Are you happy that I sign these er Mr Yes. Good. Thank you. And have you any matters arising, from these minutes? Er I should say that er we will be discussing Four Lane, er and any planning appli erm, things. I attended the last charity meeting on the thirtieth of November. Thank you. Erm. The thirtieth of November? Yeah. I have here a copy of the committee which was formed that night, and also a copy of the minutes, I'll give each Councillor one, and then they can read it at their leisure, instead of me taking up the whole meeting. Thank you. Okay? Do you want to give them now or do it at the end? Give them now if you like. Can I just say that in getting them, I think erm the er Lands Charity trustees are not actually obliged to report to us, and Kevin's doing this as a matter of sort of courtesy really, because we appointed him, erm but erm erm I think it's a subject that could well be called on for one of these sort of regular, little, important at the A G M, erm It could be one of those. erm to look over the year, and . any are those? No, just one, one of each. One for each. There's a free sheet. Two sheets. Thank you. And I gather there will be another meeting shortly. The first of February. Good evening. Dale Ross of Land Development. Ah, good evening, come in, we've er, we've only just started on the Parish Council, so er I can't Well er,yo as a member of the public you will be invited to speak, you know where I ask you to come in, thank you. Erm, can we have the Clerk's report? Could I just mention before it goes by No. the quiz is on the second of February, Wednesday, if anyone here is interested in coming they only had about two people attend from this village. The second of February? I didn't hear what. Last time we had it, and two from Haylands, so er, tea and biscuits will be provided, we're playing it may be the best Quiz. Quiz. and this time we hope it'll be different, so erm Where is it happening? It's here. Erm, here . Here? Eight O'clock, second of February, In the chapel there? Yes, I think we may be using the, because the opposing team always bring a lot of people and we never have any supporters, somehow, so erm, er we're very pleased if people who sort of spread that about a bit. Erm, after the last meeting, erm I wrote to Mr Dicks of Newton Sherwood about the er electoral role they er draft one with one or two amendments, I also wrote back to the Nottinghamshire valuation tribunal, who asked us for er maps and centres of our population which we couldn't supply, also wrote to the services, erm which will supply er Smiths erm bungalow on Poor Lane, informing them of our interest off Poor Lane, erm, and also to erm footpaths off this to Mr Jones about the same thing, because Poor Lane is public footpath, erm subsequently I spoke to him on the telephone and erm he advised us that erm they have an interest in it, erm, have received from Notts County Council a little booklet, which I think everybody's had that. You've all had one? Right. you've had one? I don't think so. Parish Council Conference, so, which some people attended, on the eighth of November I received the minutes yesterday, erm, I don't know if anybody's interested, are you John? Yes, I was up there at that time. One minute. Er, had a press release, er about the temporary closure of Graves Lane, which actually is just about, I think, finished now. Yes, it's done. Yeah, that's right, erm, there is to be a public transport conference and at Edwinstowe on Wednesday the ninth of November, and there's erm February? Sorry. You never get to them on time. Ninth of February I'm not, a governors meeting. You've got a governors meeting, yeah. I'll pass round the agenda, and then you can pass it round when we've had a look, er County Link, just information from Notts County Council, erm who'd like to see? Highways Department, with it's usual highways briefing, that comes every month, erm a pamphlet or a booklet about highways in winter, we ought to put around. Also had further letter from Notts County Council about Nottinghamshire Minerals local plan, asking us again if we have any representations to make, I think it was decided at a previous meeting that we did not, erm Colin Williamson, production of development and planning at Newton and Sherwood District Council, it's proposal to run seminars for Parish Councils on planning policies, law and procedures, and we would like to know erm whether erm we would be interested in attending, and how many people would wish, he he has earmarked temporarily twenty eighth of March, which is a Monday, as a possible date at town hall, so if er if you think that would be something that you would be erm interested in going to, the topics erm are really I think things that came up at the Parish Council's conference, the questions about planning, about the rules, and the policies, and the procedures etcetera, the erm, and visitors were talking last thing for sixth of December for five minutes, and the discussion for half an hour to three quarters, commencing at half past seven, so er if anyone's interested in attending that? Are you interested John? This guy wants some numbers, some ideas. Well, yes, probably, because I had the job of proposing that at the Oh, right. I wouldn't mind going. Would you like to go Anne, yeah, what about you Arnold? I'd have thought those two would be enough. Well, anybody can go, I mean it's just, you know, I'll say two then I'd be interested, yes, yes. Mm. Put those two then . Right, okay. That's a Monday, is it? That's a Monday at the moment, Monday the twenty eighth, that's Anne and John. Just as many people, they can manage with that in . Is it at Kelham Hall, Eileen? Yeah, seven thirty, thought it would be. What's it called? Erm, well it's just a seminar about planning at the moment, I shall get further information about it on nearer the time, erm, a change in who would pay our, or get our VAT repayment claim from, doesn't change an address basically, and er a request from Sam Stewart, whose erm a Counc , er a County Councillor, er something which I really can't actually erm help him with, he wants to know the whole of our Parish Council meetings date for nineteen ninety four, but I mean this is something we fix as we go along, so I really don't think that I can help him by that, and I'm sending him that, erm Can I ask if they, if he says er why he wants to know this, people intend to come, or? I don't know. Could I help please Chairman, Sam Stewart is the County Councillor that covers the South ward that Yes. I do, but for the County Council Mm. and if you've got any problems with highways at, I mean, a lot of the things you discuss are County Council matters Yes, they In fact I've, I've highways and that sort of thing, and he does go to Farnsfield, and he does go to Oxford and back, and really all you need do is just send him, you needn't send him the minutes here, you just send him the notice of the meeting Mm. his address,i i you've got his address presumably ? Oh yes, but he wants them for the whole of the year you see, which is impossible . Yeah, well tell him you'll put him in his diary, I I would have thought if you'd just sent him the notes to each meeting he would come if he would, if he could, and if he can't, he can't. Well I think that's a good idea if we have something with that nature. Well, are are you happy that he circulized over time, I mean, we can easily do that. I'm not particularly, because I'm not Well no, I'm asking you if what, would you like us to let the County Council know when our meetings our? Well, it would be I think it's said it, if there's anything on pertaining to the County Council, like highway matters, then it could be useful, but I mean if it just, there's no point in him sitting here to discuss planning applications, because that enquiry's there's the District Council as well. I I I do differ with that in some respects, in that er until we've arranged the agenda we're not always sure whether there will be specifically highway matters, er and er I must confess, although not on the agenda very often, highway matters are things that that that that do get commented on, er but er none the less, it's just the principle, I mean er it's a bit difficult to start saying, well do we send it because we have particular things, er or or What's the problem with sending one in each time? Well this is what I'm asking, I mean do you want one sent over Arnold? Well he is as entitled to come as anybody else Yes. provided he knows when it is, I mean, and those who aren't going to get a County Council for much longer may as well er Well, having said that there is a notice board that he can look at, you know? Well, I mean I take the view that if we are going to erm have something on the agenda, I can telephone his secretary, I can write to him, anytime, which I'm quite willing to do, I cannot see the point in sending things through the post at twenty five P a time when we shall never see the man, and if he comes here But surely this is just one sheet with the agenda on. Mm. It wouldn't warrant, you know, send it second class weight. Well I mean I agree, it still costs twenty five P Not if you send it second class. You won't see much of him, because No, that's right. he doesn't have very much time . He's a very busy man. As Mr Watt says, the County Council are on their way out. Peter, are you sure ? Wo would you like to try it for the next year, or few meetings ? Well, can I propose we try it for the next three meetings, and Three meetings, okay . see if something that could be useful, or it could not, you never know. Are you happy with that? Yes, yes. Okay then. Has the fella said when he left the note, I can't see why not. closing time, if everyone don't want them, if you want them you can't get them. That's right, thought so. Ian , er have we decided whose going to this er To the erm meeting The meeting on yes, this one . transport. transport. Anybody? It's on the erm the ninth of February. What day is that? That's a whole day one isn't it? Er, Wednesday. That's a whole day. Yeah, it is actually, that's the drawback, it's the whole day, and most people are working, aren't they? Can I think about that one? Yeah, okay. On the what date? Well look, I'll leave you with this, and if you, if you want to go post that. Sign it in, that okay. Does anyone else want to? No. Er, well, you On my own? You keep looking Think I might know about it do you? Well, I, I, I mean I've been to one, to a meeting, they had in Manchester a few years ago, Irene's been to some. I've been to . Mm. Yeah. That's right. But er, all day, I agree is a rather a Big commitment. Well, we'll have a look at it. Especially if nobodies with me . Well, I'll see what I can help you out, I'll try. A circular letter, erm the landscaping company asking if we have any works that we need doing, I don't think we do erm hedging and lawn cutting and everything. C c , are they a private company Yeah. or are they part of the Yes. County Council department. No just private people trying to get work. Erm Newark and Sherwood District Council, er er instigating a customer comments procedure, erm whereby you can write or ring or anything at all that you think would improve their services, or anything suitable or anything like that, and there are details about it there, er with erm a flow chart, erm what the action that will be taken if their clients have a look at that, one of them's just to receive public comments about their performance, I suppose it's to do with er can you comment on that, Phil? Anything from you Mr Curtis? Well not really Mr Chairman planning applications and er er items relating to Poor Lane, er and also the traffic on Station Road later on, er I think it's rather complicated to talk about all of these at at one go, because I know er different members of the public have come for different reasons and perhaps, for the moment, I'll not ask for any comments about Mr Smith's proposals on Poor Lane, er nor er comments about Station Road, er but I will ask you if you want to refer to planning applications, er we have three planning applications, one is to extend the car park behind the pub, one is for a change of plan to one of the houses on the development adjacent to us, er and the third one is er er the plans submitted by Grant Development at Thorney, erm, I suspect most comments will be about the last, er perhaps I should ask first if anybody wants to make any comments about proposals behind the reindeer in, or at Chapel cottage site, does anybody, er in the public want to mention those erm, well we will go on to the one at Thorney then, and you're Mr Walker? I'm Derek Walker, Michael Diffin. And? Michael Diffin. Michael? Diffin. D I F F I N . Diffin? Erm, have come from Grant Development erm, I think the views er of people who live in the village will be pretty forcefully er put, and and I believe, can I ask with the exception of Mr Bust, and possibly Mr Pool, have you er three gentleman seen the plans to which we are referring? I have. Are you Mr . They've both seen . Yes, but I mean I know you've er lived in the area, er so erm, perhaps I should invite Mr Walker or Mr Diffin to to make a if you look, wish to bear in mind that we have seen the plans Yeah. er we can clear the table if you wish to point anything out to us, erm, or if you prefer to er er to wait and hear what Can I er take the opportunity to clear up some technical sort of er technical points to do with the plans, however, probably inadvertent, the first one, erm in the er letter copy of the letter that you sent to the er Planning Authority, erm and you mentioned one plan being erm handed, it doesn't say, actually it didn't specify which house or which is the proper way it should be handled, but in the small plan showing the site, and the position of the houses, the attached er garage on the house on plot number two, that's the one erm you notice the bridge, this end one, is shown on the right, but in the detailed plan of the house it's shown on the left, now Now it's . It should be on the left. Hang on. We assume it's the one on the right, there . It's to be on the right, the layout plan Mr Bradford is correct, the house type is just purely the elevation the Yes. whole thing will be handed single storey garage is alongside each individual house . Yes, yes, well that well that's is that is that what other people have understood? So the garage, at, whoever the front the garage will be on the right, yes. Yes. Yeah. Adjacent to the existing terraced house. Yes, so in fact the the plan that of the house is a kind of a like a mirror image, in fact what True. a er, yeah. And then there's into the open plan as well.. And there will be in fact a right into the . Oh is it? I believe when we You just actually give him the distance. There's at least a metre. At least a metre yes. The footpath round the garage. Yeah. And the other thing I was going to ask was you that you've appealed on the planning application. Yes. Erm Which often takes some time. If you're successful on this er current application, you won't , but erm supposing this application were to be turned down by the planning authority, er that you were successful upon the appeal on the first one you would actually proceed according to the plan that was submitted at the first one. At the moment. Yes. Yes. Right is there anything er er or would you like to just listen to what people have got Well y yes, by all means yes, sounds appropriate. Yes. Chairman can ask through you whether Yes, Mr . are departments will be given an opportunity of explaining precisely what their development does for the village? Er they may not be able to answer that precisely, Mr Bradford . Well I but er we can go and ask them, yes. I mean, okay, what have they If you feel that er, do you feel it's an asset to the village? What you're I personally feel it's better than what's there now at the moment, it's also positioned on a a site which is now zoned for housing anyway in the district plan, erm it is providing true good quality houses in the area, we we personally feel that it's better than what's being proposed alongside here. We feel it would be better for the village. You can't see what you, what's there now though, but you will see the new ones. No, I think he's referring to Chapel, you're referring Yes. to these three here? These three along here . Oh, these three here, I know, mm. I mean if anybody wan wants to see the quality, I would er plo plots one and two are plots two and one at er Fiskerton, er Ben Lochan, the same . You have got some at Morton? Yes. Yes, and er you have to hurry to see plot two because if people move in late on Tuesday, but erm we can see that monitor development, it er we are we are a quality builder, we're not a clown . They'll, they'll be easier to find in Morton if we Yes. went down . Straight opposite the pub, yeah. Be alright, wouldn't it ? Thornton inn. Is there anything else Mr Bradford, about er Well, they, they may be quality builders, Mr Chairman, but I'm not sure that it happen, has any relevance to this discussion, we're talking about a planning application. Oh yes, yes, but you just asked what benefit they thought they brought to the village. The only benefits that seem to have been suggested is that their proposals are better than what's there at the moment, er Grant Developments must be aware that there is a, an approval, a current planning approval for the development of that site, which is a development to retain the existing bungalow and develop the existing bungalow, and to build a house in the rear. I, I think to be er, I think it is more correct to say that there was an outline planning application for an additional dwelling on that site, er in addition to the bungalow that is there, and I I think that is the situation, and all subsequent planning applications have been refused. Yes. Er, that that is slightly different in that an outline planning consent er is not is is precisely what it says, it is not a detail of the type of dwelling that is going on it, but it, you're quite correct in that the planning precedent has been put, that that site is adequate for two dwellings, and and I don't think anybodies disputing that, er at least not so far. Is there anybody else er wants What I want to dispute, Mr Chairman, is the the type and the nature of dwellings which are being developed on the site . Er, no, er, oh yes, exactly, yes, yes. Erm, I mean I think if we're wishing to analyse the application, I I think we must consider what it doesn't do for the village, and I think there are a number of aspects that have to be considered, erm, first of all as a village, and I've heard in this very Parish Council that the reputed view made that there is a need for small village accommodation, this development certainly does not provide that, we've also expressed a view that it would be nice to retain the existing bungalow, because that is small village accommodation, and although it only has a very limited history, again it would be nice to retain it as an integral part of the village. The application does nothing to retain the existing trees on the site, it was a, it is, a mature garden with some mature trees, and all those trees are to be removed, it certainly doesn't do anything to retain the rural character of the na of the village, and certainly doesn't enhance the character of the adjoining small er rural cottages,i in fact it would be, it could be argued that it damages the rural environment, because the development is such that it is more suited for an urban development, almost a city centre, because the comment has been made that there is only about a metre between the dwellings and indeed there is only a metre between the dwellings and the adjoining boundaries, surely there is a need for screening, it is in a in a very very prominent position, it can be seen clearly as you enter the village from the Farnsfield area, the present proposal doesn't provide sufficient room for screening, and and like the screen which is adjacent to this building, which are set well back from the road, and provide an opportunity for screening the single access to the site and the fact that the frontage to these two properties is completely taken up with garaging and with vehicle access doesn't even provide an opportunity to screen. I can't say that er their intention, and I think Mr Grant, Mr Diffin will er confirm, that t to retain or probably replant the existing external hedge to the property Well, no we we intend intend all of this . Er and er yes, in in as far as where the excess, access isn't Yes needed. that's right. There'll only be a small section of the hedge that would come down, just Yes. to give access in . Yes. Is it the same access point? Yes. The access they are accessing Is that an between Braw Lane and Mr Lingard's. Exactly the same place. That's right, yes. Chairman if you are, if you Goes out that one? Yes. are at all familiar with that end of the village you will recognize that there are three points of access, one of which is Mr Lingard's, and as you quite rightly point out is the the bridle track among them. Er, er excuse me, there is no access from the bridle track, er and Mr Lingard's Onto the road? Onto the road. er Mr Lingard's access was er given er by personal consent from Mr Lingard, so their access is directly onto the road. Yes, there will be three points of access onto the road, one from Mr Lingard's property, one from the development by Grant Construction, and another one from the bridle track. There will but These are all Yes, yes, thank you, yes the external on the road Yes, I, I, I a very dangerous corner, I take your point respect in order to ensure that there is adequate visibility from a single point of access from this dual property, it will be necessary to remove a considerable amount of existing hedge to the front of that property, it's almost inevitable that it will have to come down, because it's necessary from the visib visibility display point of view, now that will mean that the whole of these properties are clearly visible from the road, and a major part of the present hedging will have to come down, in short this proposal doesn't do a great deal for the village, in fact as far as the residents of that end of the village are concerned it does a great deal of damage to the village, I Right. would suggest that the only reason for this application is one of profit, there has been no attempt to recognize or implement the views of the village in terms of the type of accommodation which is required, I would suspect that it's Grant Development's intention to develop this site and then walk away, and leave the villagers to suffer the consequences. Well thank you Mr Bradford. I was going to Grant Development have come here er because they are interested in our views, er I think as far as the access goes I take your point that visibility is required, but I would imagine that that the highways department will have stipulated what is required, as they have indeed for the development next door, er where the hedge, the present hedge is going to be er set back, erm I I can't tell you whether, what stipulation has been made, perhaps these two gentlemen I think, I think, I think on the er planning report when we went to the last planning committee when the refusal was made highways said the access was okay. Yes As it is? As it is. I believe it is, yes. Because in fact with the road being on the bend, cos, actual visibility It's on the other side of the bend. is is seen but er Well they're expecting at least two cars . It, it's, it's right that that this should be brought up anyway, Mr . I can confirm Chairman that the District Council of course consult the County Council on access to all applications Yes, good. and the County Council didn't raise no objection. Good. That may be so Chairman, but with these two four bedroom houses there could be another six to eight cars coming out of that entrance, Mm. onto that bend Mm. I was there forty years, right, I've seen every accident on that bend, I've had my house as a first aid post a dozen times, until we did something in this committee to sort that corner out Yes. and now we get more traffic on it Well it I I don't agree with another half a dozen or eight cars coming out of that . Well there won't be that many cars off two houses, but I would also like to add Well you're having double garages included. Yeah. There's al , already one at Poplington Not a in building. There's already one at Poplington actually, just let me finish and you can make your point Yeah, go on. you're talking also about extending the car park at the pub, just down the road, so you're going to be increasing traffic into that pub. Cars coming round that corner could hit a stationary vehicle. Excuse me, we're on another subject, but I will put you in the clear I can get you an appointment on that. I will put you in the clear on the car park at the pub, it's was originally it's going back to as as it originally was, it was the car park, and all they're doing now is reverting back to what it was ten years ago. Er, can I make a point? If the planning application, as the gentleman in in the rear says er went through with a cottage, and a house, he'd have exactly the same It did. er er traffic. No. No. What you haven't Not with two houses, one cottage doesn't make the same amount. Well If you're you're going, instead of six cars you're going to have four or five. Yes, I mean we're well I mean there's not going to be that much much different. If they were smaller properties it is possible there would be some less traffic . It wouldn't be there, the house and the garage would get a four bedroomed house anyway . I mean they're family houses, aren't they? Yes, yes. So the point Mr Walker's making is there's two two families in already At the cottage? in the bungalow. Yes. There's another house If that one remained and then another house built alongside, there would be still two houses . I don't see the, what I'm saying Yes. is I don't see that the the excess er access problem has a problem holding up with the highways authority, as far as this enquiry's concerned. Yes. I mean I I I It is if you live in the village. I I I can see Sorry? It is if you live in the village. Yes. I I live in a village as well and I mean they, I've got the same Well I, excuse me, I would ask you to come on that corner at five O'clock at night, and at half past eight, between half past eight and nine in the morning, and see what speed they all come round, alright? But, er er this this is a highways erm matter No it's alright, it's alright to put these houses up and down Ca , can I just do that then, with, with, yes, excuse me Kevin, I think we we voiced that one, we can see there's, there a lot, will obviously be increased er er traffic, er from the site, er and it it's clear that that the bigger the houses the more likely there is we'd have increased traffic. Now whether this is significant, er obviously it's significant to people who live here er and who witness it, erm, er whether from a legal or highway point of view we aren't able to judge probably, er, does Mr Lingard or Mr Nun wish to show them Yes, I'd just like to emphasize the point of the last er refusal, which, I've got a copy here, would be over bearing, out of scale with the adjacent residential property, detrimental to the amenity of adjacent occupiers, and I see no, I know we're not talking about an appeal at this stage, we're talking about another application, I personally see no change whatsoever to the circumstances in which the last application was refused, these properties, totally out of proportion, and totally overpowering and overbearing for that entrance to the village Yes. er, we have in the East end of the village, including the pub, the farm, and various other properties, a certain type of properties that elevation, a certain sympathetic er amenity, and these buildings, I I heard the word mentioned earlier, I live in the country, I could live in the town, it doesn't matter where I live, but these are not the sort of properties, in my opinion, that should be put on this particular site, er and they're they're totally, all our own elevations and plans of height, and they are totally and utterly out of proportion and out of scale with the present day entrance to the village, and whilst we're not talking totally and utterly about looks, if you come down into the village they are going to be totally over powering, particularly in the, in the actual, in this situation of no hedges and that kind of thing, Yes. and they'd be a blot on the landscape to put it mildly, Yes, that's it yes . and what I concern myself with now is that this sort of thing is becoming too obvious in the area, this kind of development, this kind of an infringement in villages, looking for , somebody's got to make a stand against it, er and I hope that we shall in this Parish Council Thank you, yes . for the defeatist, totally out of keeping. Can I make a comment on that and that the these houses are and oh ev er we have been been into consultation with Newton Sherwood District Council, since we er since the the first application Yes. most of the changes that have been made to those houses have been er erm at the request of Newton Sherwood District Council, they the the they lifted the room pitch, we had a lower one, they wanted a higher one, erm, and you know, erm, all all basically erm the the although they counted it as a change since application Yeah and we have done everything that, everything they've requested. Er, I mean, am I correct to that's the request of the planning officers Yes. Not the members Yes. because the members had not yet seen the site I'm sorry, the planning officer. Yes the planning officer Perhaps that make a statement Mr Chairman, the planning officers last night would actually, I believe approve the application They recommended approval. unfortunately the planning committee in considering it turned it down Yes. and I'm sorry, I have very little confidence in them and the opinion of the planning officers at at Newark District Council I believe it's a different planning officer dealing with this application than from the last one, but er Well, all right, I haven't got tremendous amount of confidence in their opinions, but that's all But er, I mean I believe er perhaps these gentlemen can put me right, that in fact the pla the present plans that have been put in are very similar to the original plans, before they were amended er in consultation with the Er, er, er, the first, yes. with the officers. Yes. Erm, and er I don't know who was responsible for this, whether it was Mr Bradford, or whether it was It was. er, and whether these were the original, or were these the original ones, Mr Bradford? I can't see Chairman what drawing you're showing . that that Kevin's provided it have you? It, it was off your drawing, yes. And I've just photostatted it, then it's Er, which of course does show the relative height of the new houses, against I want to make the fact that these are in fact the wrong way round. We know. Yeah, we know . Well, well, I'm just You just need some of the worst I'm just referring to the to the if you think that's unreasonable, now, now, that that single storey is there Yes. Yes. move it that way. But, but you see, this is what er I think, er It's too high. that, that, that, that, people are objecting to, it's the height . They're objecting to the height. You see. Er, er, er I hate, hate to argue Now if you go for something reasonable, say a bungalow and a house, you'd have no problems. Is Mr Walker saying, Chairman, that the District Council planning officers are asking for this higher roof, but Yes. Chairman, this is not unusual, the planners approach is that traditionally erm buildings in this area have erm pantile roofs, which require a steep pitch Mm. that that can be seen from er the bungalow almost directly opposite, and er it's almost a traditional requirement that they ask for steep pitches. Mm. I, I accept that there is a mixture of houses at this end of the village . The whole point is, Chairman, the planning officers, both at the site inspection and when it was discussed er er er they were under no misapprehension that it was the height of the building which had been objected to actually . Yes, that's right, yes. I mean that was made abundantly clear by Mr Topham, who represented the Parish Council at the site meeting,whe when er one of the senior planning officers was present, so it's an absolute nonsense if they've gone and encouraged the developers to go for an even higher roof line. Well, I, I, I, only have er comments . Can I just mention that the reason why some of the older properties in this village has steeper pitched roofs is not because they're pantiled now, because originally they were erm, thatched, and the thatch needs a very steep pitch and particularly when there's a erm a gable end higher than the pantiles, it's where there was a thatched roof originally, but most of the older properties in this village are only one room wide, so you can't get a very big roof on, no matter how steep it is, the proposed houses here are in fact virtually sort of two rooms wide aren't they, so that means they are wide at the eves , I I would personally have thought that erm they could have been pitched a bit less. Er, Mr Lingard, do you want to say anything? I, I always have mildly you know, below the shadow of both the next two properties, we shall, we shall, you know, just have a brick wall, and if they they just shifted the garage to one end and as far as I'm concerned it's an excuse for them to put up the power, that is, Yes. you know, the houses that have just got one wall and a little, or a garage which is higher than just about as high as I think Yes, yes. Can I just Well of course they are behind the line of your house, I mean but even so it's sort of, erm Can I ask the applicants, please, is a, if the the location, the actual siting of the present houses, is any further erm away from the road and the originally proposed Well have you got a copy of the plan then? Yeah we have, yes. If you look at the plan a minute and I'll show you on the plan . I, I can't remember the original plan. Where are they going to put the drains in? There's a sewer. Where? In the road. What, between the houses? I had the impression a little bit. Isn't that going to come out and join that one from Micklethorpe Lane? Oh no, no no, no no, no no. From the plans that I've seen there's no change from what they originally planned You're correct. You're actually right Mr Lingard you know you then have the terraced cottage on the site there, Yes. you then have a hedge and there's a metre or a metre and a half that way, then you've got the single trees I mean I've stood on our our bridge and looked down. Yes. Er, this I I should get. They'd be very domineering about it, wouldn't they, really? Exactly, we got used to them haven't we . It's the angle of the road, isn't it? That's it. Yes you do, you look right at it. But surely the size of that house, you've probably got people with at least two, if not three cars probably. Well it it's true isn't it? You've got a small Renault,. And has that changed at all? That one's the same. That one's the same. Yes. So it's this one that you've changed? Yes. It's this one . Thank you. Erm, er I'll I'll close it at two, but perhaps I could ask the the applicants erm, I mean I appreciate that obviously erm it er it economy in in in obviously in what you're doing, but I think it it it would be fairly obviously to, I mean it's been stated that that that that residents nearby would prefer either two bungalows or a house and a bungalow, and I think er that certainly erm new developments adjacent to where you are proposing these are in fact all bungalows, er with the exception of the mill, which of course has been there a long time, er all those on that side of the road, both those two built and those two proposed are a bungalow or a semi bungalow, er and so erm you can see that obviously it is that the height of these buildings, it is erm causing the offence, largely, erm I I think, I mean obviously you will want to to to to main you know, optimize your er development, but whether er a scheme with two bungalows that they wouldn't be four bedroomed bungalows, because there wouldn't be room for two of the four two four bedroomed bungalows, erm Quite what, I mean at the there's one following behind the site of the other Yes. that we've got,i i is that a four bedroomed detached house? No. The one that's planned? Yes. It's a bungalow. That one? Yes, er it could be a four bedroomed bungalow, I'm not sure, I can't remember now. But that is right behind it, the stream and and That is behind your plot, yes. will not be in any way shape or form detrimental to It is of course a lot lower. this is a . Yes, yes. It's a bungalow, it's going to be screened and it's going to be right at the back, there's going to be no no er I'm er problem at all. But whatever whatever is put there there is going to be a a four bedroomed house in the garden of the of the cottage, which is erm going to be very much the same as the plot one there anyway, isn't it? I think basically what people are trying to say that two huge houses is negatively very overbearing erm it would be a lot easier to accept one larger dwelling and the smaller property, you know one I can understand that, yes. Can you understand what I'm trying to get at. Yes, obviously yes. I mean Mr Chairman it may just say honestly, I mean this is among ourselves from the commercial point of view there's no doubt about it, I'm in the grocery trade, the more you get on a lorry when you deliver you get every single Yes, well I mean, I think, I think it's fairly clear that we can appreciate. but er this is obviously the answer for profit Yes, yes. and I don't dispute that at all, but we're not here, I hope, making planning decisions Yes. based upon a profit bottom line for Grant Development, we're here looking at the planning application and all the implications. No, I mean I know that is is not exactly pertinent to the application that is er in, erm I my personal view is that that that bungalows are are practical, we have had it stated by one resident that a house and a bungalow would be acceptable, erm not that I am er anticipating any other planning develop er applications by these applicants but er would a house of a similar nature to one of these that they have proposed, plus a bungalow er, would we have as much opposition to this, to that as as the present ones, or you would prefer to defer until you saw it? You're talking about a house on plot one and a bungalow, or chalet bungalow on plot two ? Possibly, possibly, yes, I'm not too Chairman, if I may add this add this to the outline application, indicating that that's to the rear of the site, the Mayor Yes. site, that deals with a lot of the concerns, a lot of the criticisms that we have Yes. it's set far enough back from the road, Yes. there is an opportunity of being able to screen it from the Farnsfield direction. This development here, as you approach from Farnsfield, if you look at the angle of the position on site, will be clearly visible and it will create the impression that it is it is one single house, because they are so close together they will stick out like a sore thumb. So, Mr Mr Bradford in fact if plot one was a house as as proposed to us But we are not talking terms of plot one and plot two we're simply saying No but I mean in the ones that they have, yes. that the original outline application retain the bungalow and built a house towards the rear of the site. I mean I I think it's fairly clear, unless somebody was a dedicated er fix a roof on it it could be made into a very attractive rural type property, it it's typical of the kind of property which in a village we're dying for we want small, small family properties Thank you Mr small starter homes for younger people Well that's what but there we are, we've got something of that nature, and it's going to be demolished Yes, yes. it's going to be flattened, and we're going to end up with two Small starter homes, they would like to put about four smaller starter homes on that site, I suppose, and then that That's always a concern at the villages, because I live in a town, I live in a small town near here, erm I've had a lot of dealings in villages, and people who live in villages always want to have starter homes, but as soon as you put an application in for starter homes, there's even more opposition to it, as happened down in Bleasby, Council threw that one out. You approved three four bedroomed houses behind here, er wasn't any opposition then, was anybody then saying Can I just we should have starter homes on there. Yes. Can I just make a point here, the Parish Council as a body of Parish Councils did not approve the the Bilbany idea Yes it did. not originally Eric, no. It was approved Well there wasn't six now going down to four. Yeah, we whittled the numbers down but We were, we were not in full agreement and happy with the development. I would think that distance houses there was very much the same as it the distance between the houses here . I would think if you were felt the area of the houses on that side, the area of the houses on the Thorny side you would think that one's Yes, but you're looking relatively good Yes, but the difference is that I've never seen those houses but I have, I can see those . We're looking at extremes with a with a situation here I thought you can't see them at all can you you're not looking at it in the same way at all. at that one wrongly, I shall come in from Farnsfield, you see, and you wouldn't see the house this is on, there's a twenty foot high hedge all the way along. Yes, but do you agree your houses are going to be somewhat above that? They're going to be it's not as, it's not as, it's not as if they're right in that corner as you come in from, from er Farnsfield,a a a as Mike said there's a twenty foot fe hedge there, which is going to be kept. Yes, yes. I mean the drawings you showed Derek of this, this proposed street thing which is the wrong way round isn't misleading because you won't see all that. No. Might I ask you through the Chair? Originally you were going to retain some of the trees, and build among the trees? Well we will retain as many trees as we can. Yeah, but it's impossible to retain them with two four bedroomed houses, now isn't it? You'll have to uproot the lot, surely? Well you see originally, I mean that plan, that one there, doesn't, which has let the bulk of the trees all round there and round this area, there's a couple in the backyard as well. That does not happen if this one be put in. What, you're going to get two four bedroomed houses and two double garages up and retain some trees in that bit? Depending on what kind of , yeah. Well, I I find that totally impossible, I mean I know that, I've been in that plot thousand of times. The experience Mr Chairman I have of these situations is that trees happen to fall down, and hedges happen to get pushed by bulldozers, and at the end of the day, because I've seen it in my own village where I was born, I'm afraid with all respect to what happens, what is actually passed by the planners doesn't actually come to pass because there is always a reason why it can't. So I think that what if they care were listening to nominal words about retaining trees and hedges, because trees and hedges have a very clear habit of falling down by accident, Yes. and we want to be very very careful The District Council of course do have their policies on conservation matters, er and er I I accept your point er erm Can I just mention that time is getting on and the Parish Council still hasn't discussed this Yes it is, yes. We have other subjects, yes. This is not the discussion that we No, erm if there is no more comment from, Mr Poole, we don't wish to talk about this? No, no. So will that do? Well, I will resume, if er in is a Parish Council, we will deal with the the orders of planning as they are on the agenda, which is a car park and the Reindeer. Would you like us to leave now? It's up to you, if you wish to stay you can, and if not, you can leave. Well, thanks thanks very much. Yes, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. The Reindeer. Mhm. Okay. The Reindeer is to push the car park back, half way across the grass, er which is er am I correct in saying that it's putting it back where it was? Or it's er Yes you are, Chair. Yes. It used to be, it used to be tar tarmacked It goes behind and they grassed it over for a children's pre pre playground, now they want to turn it back, and extend the car park. Can I just say at this point that erm John will happ had a word with the landlady and the landlord of the Reindeer, with regards to this application, and what the landlady told John was that she and her husband would dearly like to do away with the breeze block garage that is there, that is totally out of character, and extend the car park way back to the garages, but the brewery are insisting that they do what is planned here and do away with some of the Grass, yes. and the little trees and that Mm. which they would like to retain. They would dearly like to do away with the garage, and I think the landlady said she would just like to mention that, as their comment on the application. Well down here we've got the landlady doesn't really want it to go through. Well no, I don't think she's saying that, but what she's saying is their thoughts are, ideally it would be better to demolish the Come up with breeze block garage that is there. Well, if that's the Parish Council's view then the See here? obvious thing Is grass. is to recommend refusal . Is grass. Yes. And then we would have to have another think And here is grass. wouldn't we. So all this lot is converted, it all just You can't tell them what they're doing, you can only determine the application you have before you. Is the part behind Reindeer Cottage, do people go on that now, or is that part of their garden? May I? Have you seen this Kevin? No. Chairman, am I am I eligible to make a comment from the floor? In a classless society, whatever that might be, what role with the monarchy play? Nothing sells women's magazines like a photo of the Princess of Wales on the cover. Generally, it seems, we enjoy our royal family, we enjoy admiring, and we enjoy criticizing them. But what's their real function in Britain today? Is the Prime Ministers' vision of a classless society possible with the monarchy in place? And does Scotland take a different with the whole subject from the rest of the country. One hundred women reveal their true colours. Let's start with the vote. I wonder if you think we need the the monarchy? Do we need the monarchy? Button one for yes, button two for no. I mean, you may like them but would you say that we need the monarchy? And, this particular hundred are divided, but the minority think we need them, forty five said yes, but fifty said no. Let's start with the yes's, what what do we need them for? Yes? I think them, the royalty provide a stability for the country. Erm,yo see across the world that their political situations arise er because of an, an elected leader and also situations arise where you have someone who's pushed himself into leadership, and I think erm we have a, a fairly stable society here because of that. So we're protected from volatile politics and and situations. Yes? If we didn't have them we would probably have dictatorship which would be even worse! I'm interested in your even worse there! Up there? I think they can be very useful because a lot of having monarchy brings, you know, American tourists, a big influx into the country, and whether that's good or not it's certainly brings money into the country, so that from that point of view it's quite good to have them. They're also a novelty within the country, I mean, the state opening of parliament for instance, it's just weird! When you look at it and they're all traipsing up and down in their strange robes and saying silly things to each other, you know, that's really weird but it's all tradition, it's all pageantry and it's taught by the monarchy. Beside you. I think it's a sad indictment of our so called democratic system when they are afraid of having an elected head of state, that they are afraid that we might have a dictator! I mean, Britain is supposed to be one of the, the founding countries as far as democracy is concerned. The British Mother of Parliament. Quite right! Exactly! I was going to say about the mother of parliament. Fine. We talk of the monarchy as something there, er gossom , the gossip columnist go to town, they've got the tourists coming to see the monarchy, to see the novelty, the attraction and all the rest of it. I think it's significant that in Scotland many people have absolutely no time for the monarchy! They are either totally against, or totally indifferent. And I think if there was a referendum in Scotland it might turn out that many people here wanted the monarchy ended. Up there. I think that the monarchy impar , important role in preventing civilians taking posts which the constitutional monarchy actually occupies, for example, the head of the armed forces Mhm. this prevents civilians from becoming far too powerful and then becoming a dictatorship. Yes? I wasn't sure how to vote, er, I think, like a lot of people erm I'm quite fond of the monarchy and th the the constitutional monarchy Mhm. but what gets me down is not the royal bit, it's the family bit! And er I mean, in, in these days, give or take, I know they've got this this erm, value as being a soap-like Dallas with crowns on but er, given the amount of poverty and misery that there is in this country, can we really justify, or can we really say that by paying Prince Andrew a hundred thousand pounds a year we're being cost effective? Here. Yes, surely erm, the alternative to that is, without the state actually supporting the monarchy, the monarchy can still exist, you can't just go out and shoot Prince Edward today! You know that's not on! Stop his money! The monarchy's still got to exist. Because I I We could stop his money, not shoot him! Yes, you could stop his money but that has the effect of privatizing the monarchy. Because instead instead of the monarchy going out and they're supported by the tax payer if the monarchy go and, say it's the queen goes Mm. and opens and supermarket, then she'll get paid for opening that supermarket. It's not, Yes? cos they can't! Our er our royalty is erm we sort of put on a pedestal and if you look at other European countries who still have royal families, they're a bit more down to earth, some of them Europe go on bicycles and they don't need, erm, all the limousines. So maybe we could have royalty but they don't, we don't have to have the pomp and ceremony that goes with them and also the cost. Sadie? I think it's okay to have royalty, if the people that want it, pay for it. I object to paying for it because it does nah do anything for me. Down there. I don't think it's just the family, I think it's all the hangers-on. Erm, by hangers-on I mean that there are all the Dukes and the Viscounts and whatever else there is and that whole strata in society, which, I think is English society, erm I mean I know that there are Dukes in Scotland but there aren't so many, and I mean they own quite a lot and I think that it's impossible to have a classless society because the monarchy perpetuate class divisions. Up there. Thelma. I was going to say I represent the tourist ind , industry in Grampian, and I don't think anybody can deny that our royal are a tremendous draw to tourists, particularly tourists from overseas. It only takes a visit by the Prince and Princess of Wales to Japan, for example, and we're inundated with Japanese tourists in Britain. Is that the best thing you can say about the royal family. Certainly, certainly not. For example, one of the attractions in my area, Balmoral Castle, as a couple of exhibitions which are open to the public for part of the year, now the entrance fees for that actually goes to charity so it benefits other people apart from the tourists themselves. Apart from providing jobs in the area as well. Jennifer. I would to, just make the point that the royal family do, do a lot of work for this country. The Prince of Wales is president of my organisation, Scottish Business in the Community, and ever since he agreed to take on that role he as dedicated a large amount of time to helping us, and in turn, helping communities, not because it's it's fashionable because he really believes in it and he wants to do hard work on our behalf and on the countrys' behalf. But, presumably, he would do, he would work very hard were he not a royal person, would he not? I'm sure he would, but he has that greater degree of influence because of who he is. I'm hopeful with the royal family getting so involved in lobbies and British charities which do lobby, and for instance the anti-smoking lobby, where there's somebody that's supporting that there's always going to be somebody who's opposing that. So the point about the royals, erm, getting involved with these things is there's always gonna be people that disagree with what they're lobbying for. And But that's their right too. well, then that brings them into the realm of politics and is it such a good idea to have a royal family with opinions that are funded by the state? Angela? I'm with the Scottish Ballet, and I think the royal family have a great deal to offer all of us, through the arts. In what way? Well, industry and also I think, in your papers, industry, the heads of industry are men mostly, if not all and erm they do like rub rubbing shoulders with er, royalty and the royal family, and the kudos for industry by sponsoring or funding the arts. Mhm. I'm not er a great fan of the monarchy, although that I would say that I come from a family which is, devoted a large portion of it's life in service and work to the royal family. I think one of the, the best things a member of the royal family has done, is Prince Phillip and Prince of Wa , and Prince of Wales have actually opened their mouths up and said they're opposed to wha a lo a lo a lot of what the present government policies are and it's not, not before time, in my opinion! The other thing, which I think is a, another great misconception is er our present Prime Ministers' policy of having a classless society, well I think the first thing is you could do is actually abolish the House of Lords and that will certainly be a start on having a classless society in this country. Well, would you take it further then and abolish the monarchy? Erm yes, I would like to abolish the monarchy but I don't think it's gonna happen over night, and I think it will be a very difficult thing to achieve anyway. Yeah? I, I was very angry abo , with what Prince Charles said erm about education, because his ideas are just handed down without any, ah, without us ha being informed in any way of where he's getting his information from. We don't know upon what he's basing what he's saying, whether it's on his own particular memories of school, whether it's been informed by, department of education officials in England, or Scottish education officials up here, and I think any up , any where somebody, something as crucial teachi , any job, er, where somebody who's uninformed is making pronouncements which are considered to be sufficiently important that they're read out on th , on the six o'clock news and in the papers Ah. the next morning, should at least be informed! Mm. Yes But but even if he's uninformed why shouldn't he speak? I mean, who's getting it wrong? Oh we ,yo you think Yeah. he's getting it wrong, you obviously think the media's getting it wrong in reporting it! Is he abusing No. his position? I think if he's making pronouncements which are being picked up and treated as very important, and they're only being treated as important because of his position then he should be ba , getting his facts right! Sandra? There are great dangers in the royal family speaking out because I have a memory of the nineteen seventy nine, just prior to the devolution bill in the referendum in Scotland, when the Queen spoke out against devolution, now she in, in effect denied a large number of Scots the opportunity to have some sort of Scottish Parliament based here, and we probably wouldn't, I think, be debating this subject today, if in fact we'd got that eleven years ago. Why I if if we had got devolution eleven years ago? Well I think there's a distinct possibility that the people have Scotland may have then decided that they could do without the monarchy. I have nothing against the monarchy, in principle, erm I think that perhaps if we had our own parliament in Scotland and had the Queen as a head of state, as do Australia, Canada, and all the commonwealth countries, that would be fine. I don't particularly like the set up as it is as the moment. Pat? Yes, I'm hearing the, the business anti-hostile feeling towards the monarchy in Scotland, and yet I can remember the Silver Jubilee celebrations when these same undertones were about, and yet, she was greeted on her royal progress all over Scotland, even in areas that you wouldn't have expected with vast crowds! Now, part of that might just have purely the ritual that's associated with things like coronations and investitures, but surely if people had felt so strongly about it they wouldn't have turned out in such numbers, er to support her. Mm mm. I think the one thing, that that really annoys me about the royal family is the way they speak and the fact that the way that they speak is still re re regarded by certain sections of the, population, both in Scotland and in England, as being er, the correct way in which the English language should be pronounced, which is of course, arrant nonsense! But, I mean, there, there are still areas erm where, that that kind of pronunciation is, is a si , a symbol of prestige, of education, or even have said, of good looks, humour and attractiveness. Erm, and I think that aspect of the royal family is one which I would really do without! Fergie personally in the hospice where I work Mhm. and she is a very, very caring person! I mean th , they what they say in the press about her is, is terrible, I think! I mean, took the point of coming round all the staff, talking to them personally every patient and she made a point of getting down on her knees and talking to the patient personally! Sadie. I just worries me that these caring people are the same people that support the Tory policies that oppressed Yes! the people! They rub shoulders with industrialists that oppress us, pays low wages, bad conditions That's rubbish! poor hours! An awful lot of things that are Tory party policy, that the royals don't agree with! Mm. For instance, Prince Charles recently made comments about electoral reform. You know, I mean that that goes beyond parties! Okay, there are liberal democratics who'll say that they are the party committed to electoral reform, there are others, and other parties who are as well! And Prince Charles is starting to say things about that and whether that was misquoted in the press or whether he actually said it, the point was it was leaked that he had said it to a group of MP's. I mean I I would say that was an abuse of the position of power, because if he was Joe Bloggs in the street nobody would listen to what he was saying about electoral reform! Right. Er, I think Prince who, perhaps dealt with domestic politics, but one thing he has exposed is the green cause which I'm very pleased about because I don't think that the politicians in this country take these issues seriously enough! And somebody with his influence and power, it's good to have him on our side, as it were. Rhona? I was erm i quite sickened actually by the fact that that Princess Anne comes on the television and talks about how we have to to give our lunch to save starving people when you think your one royal lunch would probably pay the third world of some some countries! Erm a ,th th the situ , you know the situation abo , about about charity, charity we've we've seen it all before and it hasn't helped the starving millions in Africa, it's beginning to start all over again. You know i i feeds into that idea I think that the the you know, people in Africa are impotent and that we have to put put into our pockets to help them when we're destroying massive amounts of grain. We live in a very unequal society What and the monarchy typify that in equality. What do you think about then? I mean compared with other Yeah. nations I think we do very little, I mean, we do a lot for charity but if you look our planet is dying as, you look at the green issue we are far behind so monarchy doesn't help us there. They er Yes, okay. There's a lot erm, women do a lot of voluntary work round the hospitals as it is, but it's never they're never wrote about when they go Mm. visiting hospital. That lady said when one of the royals went it was nice to see, but I mean there's women that do that every day of the week and it's never writ about then! I mean they're just ordinary people. I mentioned at the beginning the idea of a classless society, now I don't know what you think of the er the idea of a classless society, it's something that the th th Prime Minister erm er er talked about when he, when he took office and I asked whether you think it's possible to have,we if you think a classless society is possible at all, whether you think it's desirable. Er, if it is desirable is it possible to have one with a monarchy in place do you think? Yes Sadie? I think it would be a desirable erm idea to have a classless society as long as we're all middle class! I think there's a lot erm dandying about of this er, this idea that there will be a classless society. It doesn't look like it! The the gulf between the rich and the poor is getting bigger so where on earth, where is the the er the proof that we're becoming a classless society? Well I don't I was suggesting we were becoming one but I was suggesting that the Prime Minister thought this is desirable. Maybe you don't believe him but that, he has he has said this. I don't no. I don't! Yes? I think to have a classless society in this country everybody has to be equal and not just from the rich to the poor and the poor to the rich, but also there's many people in this country who suffer from persecution. Now, there's been lots of talk about gay and lesbian people not having no rights, I come from a Jewish society, I've got people who suffer anti-semitic ri , feelings, there's lot of erm multi-ra , ethnic majorities who cover on this programme, and I think that issue has to be looked at as well. And I think this, you know, to have a classless society all these things have to be covered, not just the rich and poor, oh and getting rid of the monarchy. Yep. You're talking about have and have not, but have and have not in the sense of money surely class is not just money? What else is it? Well class is inbred and er class is something you have or you haven't, and if you have money or if you don't have money. I think the monarchy is stopping us from being a classless society but I can't think of one country in the world whether it's communist, whether it's a new country like Australia what doesn't have the rich, the poor, the upper class and the lower Mm. the monarchy doesn't stop us. So they're not playing any part in perpetuating I don't think so at all. a class? I just thinks it's human nature. Coming back to what Yes. the other woman said No Fiona , beside you. There maybe societies where there is a privilege and inequality, but as long as we have in Britain a system where the head of the state, is head of state because the person inherited the position of being monarch and as long as we have a institution such as the House of Lords. We are talking of a system where people are born into certain families and by right of that simply because What about them? they're born into it, they have this position. They were born into it and Americas doesn't have a monarchy. But the nearest thing Americans ever had to it was the Kennedys. They all inherited! day. May I point out that we haven't had a monarch in residence here since sixteen hundred and three. Yes. But I see no evidence of Scotland having become a classless society! But Scotland is part of, of of the United Kingdom. Nevertheless, we are a holiday place for the royal family! Oh! Marjorie? I'm not all that sure how desirable a classless society is in that I can't visualize any society in the world which is classless. I'm thinking towards the eastern European countries, for example, where one is told, or has been led to believe they were aiming for classlessness and what's happening th barriers are coming down and they're heading towards our capitalist society as a But model. Well you seem to have more or less damned the er Prime Ministers' vision of a classless society! So asking you what what the role of monarchy within the such a society would be becomes rather irrelevant. Mhm. Can I hear from the people who think that yes, we do need the monarchy and it is the minority in this er hundred, forty five of you said yes. Can we go back to that, I mean we've heard that they're good for tourism they're good for patronage, they encourage people who have money to er, to put it into the arts, they're they promote stability and they they save us from a dictatorship, is that it? I mean is that Erm is that, yes? the monarchy are non political and therefore, when they choose to speak it's usually out of a genuine concern for that problem, it's not for popularity or personal gain because they are there already and, I think that is quite important when po politicians tend to do good it's usually to get votes. But there are other people apart from politicians who who speak out, who have public prominence too. Well you feel with the royal family, they do not need to go round visiting hospitals. Mm! They do not need to go erm and th th they they have their own positions and I think a lot of what they speak is of genuine concern. Rhona. But I think you have to remember that a at one time the monarchy were very unpopular, you know er,cre , during the time of Queen Victoria they were very unpopular and there was I suppose, nearly a republic at the time, and in fact, the monarchy do have to make themselves popular. If they, if they don't become media personalities and do all the things they do on the telly and visit the hospitals, then we might very well get fed up paying the money for them when you consider the Queen is the richest person in the world is she not? Well let's count the number of times, so let's put that to the vote. Do you think the civil list should be abolished? Button one for yes, button two for no. And it may come out very akin to the er, the earlier vote. Well no, even people think who think that we need the monarchy aren't very keen on the civil list. Seventy five of them say yes, let's abolish list. I object to the fact that no taxes are paid therefore inequality is there automatically. What we could choose to do if we wanted to keep them as that figure head and as a P R agency almost, we could pay them a specific salary, similar to other people who work in advertising industry and leave it at that. Mhm. Yeah but I agree totally with what, and the other lady has just said, but the other thing is is the amount of money that is spent when, you know, someone royal is coming for a visit because all of a sudden, you know, you have people in this country who are living in absolute poverty and yet because the royal sort of erm limousine is going past erm, for a few seconds where they stay all of a sudden the front of the house is painted! And there was an instance a few years ago I think where they were going somewhere in Glasgow and a toilet was put in erm, but other people for the rest of, you know erm the time er, that they live in they have to live in poverty! I don't agree with the amount of money that's spent on the royal family. Even if their visits give a kind of pleasure that er, Elizabeth suggested er the th the, the Duchess of Yorks' visit to, brought to the hospice that she works at? I mean she said everyone was delighted to see it! Isn't it Mm mm. worth a lick of paint? I remember when I worked in Ninewells and the Queen Mother was coming and the same thing happened, the domestics had to work over time to clean up Ninewells which is a relatively new hospital. When she did come we were all excited, but we all got told to get off the concourse and hide! None of us because we were domestics got to actually see the Queen Mother! Which I think how, why did that happen? Because she is royal family and we're so little. You know what I mean? I couldn't understand that at all! Moira? You would think that, I think that the people in in your hospice would have been just as happy to see somebody from Eastenders and you wouldn't have to pay for Yeah. the privilege! Mm! And I don't think it's the royals Neighbours. Angela, would somebody from Eastenders er, provoke the kind the cash flow from the industrialists that companies that yours are looking for? I doubt it ! I don't think so. No, I mean in in industry and also the the the artists, they do enjoy er royal patronage because they know that it is an asset to the arts. Mhm. Millie? Yes I think er people should hear that er er er the royal family's had a lot of correction in the past with the outside world and er come and go and you know, people know the royal family very well and they attract a lot of business, a lot of things go on behind the scenes whether it's from glamour point of view. All also with the great work of Princess Diana with Save the Children, I think it's wonderful! And I, she at least goes and sees what happening, I wish some of the politicians would do that, and go and see. Mm mm. Well nobody's mentioned the Queen and I think the Queen's done an excellent job! Cos she was put in that job when she was only a young girl and she's never brought any shame or anything, not like the young ones are doing now! Mm. I'm, I There. agree with that lady over there about er Queen, I think she does a wonderful job and, it's come through lately there like she just suffers the same as any natural mother, their family, the way they live, the way their I know! is. The family she's got! Well they're well lo , they're well paid for it! But, as I say she's a modern outlook is a difference from the Queen, I think Queen Elizabeth She tends to be you know? say she's a bit depressed and say Well actually I Maybe I thought we were gonna a new Queen Well! a couple of months ago, will it, will it be Maggie? I said we enjoyed admiring and criticizing the royal family, we have admired and criticized them in the course of the last half hour. Only thirty five of the hundred here think that we er, need this monarchy so let me ask you a final question, do you think Britain, therefore, should be a republic? Button one for yes, and button two for no. And after half an hour of discussing the good things and the less good things about the royal family the vote , apart from a few abstentions, we have worried a few people fo fo fo forty three people say we think that it should be a republic, fifty four no, so there is there's a swing factor in the middle. We don't need the monarchy we don't need a republic either, maybe these are the pro-dictatorship people that we're all so worried about! Thank you for joining us. Goodbye. proportionately because when the cuts come it's the special need support that many of these groups need that was the first to go. It was the help with literacy and numeracy, it was the help with English as a second language, it was the initial training that helped to boost an individual's confidence. These policies have ruined the opportunities and dreams of thousands of people throughout this district and have been carried out with no regard to the drastic effects they have had on people's lives. But wait, on the political horizon there comes a general election. Panic in Tory Party central office. What can we do to make it look like we care about the unemployed? What can we do to make it look like we actually care about training? The first thing you do is announce half way through a year that they're gonna put back some, but not all, of the money they cut from the budget. There is no guarantee that this money will be available next year so training providers are now scrabbling around trying to work out ways of providing training up to the required standard in six months instead of the full year. This from the party of so sound finance and forward planning. What else do the Tories do? They try and hide some of the total mess they have made. They take some of the money they have cut from the training budget and use it to fund employment action. One of the most blatant and invidious pieces of political skulduggery we have seen for some time. Employment Action is a scheme that will take people off the dole queue and put them into full time work for benefit plus ten pounds. With the best will in the world, no-one could refer to it as a training scheme. A confidential Department of Employment memo states, the scheme will have only a minimal training element. Even the Tech, which has trumpeted the fact that it has pushed hard for a greater training element, has only been enabl able to include such elements as health and safety, job search, an enhancement of skills relevant to the job that is being done. One of the biggest farces of the whole idea is that the Tech proposals talk about using Employment Action in skill shortage areas. This is totally illogical. If you have a skill that's in short supply, you go and work for the proper rate for the job. If you don't have the skill, Employment Action will never give you those skills. Eligibility for the scheme is defined in such a way as to exclude the very people who've been worst hit by the cuts and to maximise the infl influence on the unemployment figures. Women returners and those people on disability benefits are excluded from taking part in the scheme, even if they wanted to. The timing of the launch means that ther if there is any sort of take up, it will have the greatest effect on unemployment figures between March and July. It's no coincidence that this is the likely period of the next general election. The Scheme is funded for eighteen months only and this means that the numbers will start to drop in October 1993 and that is the only good thing about this Scheme, because it'll make it easier for the next Labour Government to abolish it. Employment Action has no stated aim except to provide the long term unemployed with an up to date reference. Unlike the Government Training Schemes, funding is not reliant upon people finding jobs or gaining qualifications. There is nothing in it for the participants except the opportunity to work for low or no wages. The effect on those who are employed in the areas of work that Employment Action will concentrate on will be to increase unemployment and force down wages. Participants will not have the same protection as employees and trainees as far as the Health and Safety at Work Act is concerned. They will not be covered by the Race Relations and Sex Discrimination Act. They will not have the right to go to Industrial Tribunal for legal redress. Do the Tories really expect a responsible Council to take part in such a scheme? Where are these participants gonna come from? Who in this room would be willing to work full time for the equivalent of benefit plus ten pounds? The Government have painted a picture of willing participants lining up to take part in this scheme. This is pa at least in part due to the glossy advertising that they've launched at a cost of a quarter of a million pounds a week. But, if as I believe is the case, the scheme fails to attract anybody, then what are the Government's alternatives? They can either admit they've made a mistake, or they can make it compulsory. They had to get rid of a leader before they could bring themselves to admit that the poll tax was a mistake and I can't see John Major going before he loses the next election. So it's more likely that they'll make it compulsory. Work by another name. We've already seen it happen with the youth training. We're seeing it happening with adult training and this is all from the Party that talks about choice. In this district there are hundreds, if not thousands, of unemployed pe people doing the socially useful work, as the Tories like to describe it. They are running our tenants and residents associations. They are working in the voluntary sector and they're supporting charities. The problem that the Tories have with this is that they still appear on the unemployment figures. Employment Action was not designed to help the unemployed. It was designed as a desperate attempt by a desperate Government to dig itself out of a mess of its own making. It is trying to hide the fact that it's policies have bought pain, misery, the pain, misery and hardship of unemployment to thousands of people in the district and millions throughout the country. We, as a Council, are not willing to take part in this shoddy scheme but we'll we will continue to work to provide high q quality real training to the people of the district and to work with business and industry to develop real jobs. Norman Lamont said, unemployment is a price worth paying. Come the next general he'll be able to judge the value of that crass statement himself as he and the rest of his cabinet are replaced by a Party that has policies to develop real training and employment opportunities for the people of and for the country, and that will be a Labour cabinet and a Labour Government. Thank you. Councillor Nothing that this Council will debate today will show the despicable face of the Labour Party more than this one. Sitting across on the opposite benches it is the Labour Party who shed crocodile tears for the unemployed. If the truth be known, the majority of Labour Councillors, just like their Socialist friends at Westminster, show more allegiance to the Trade Unions than to the unemployed. Labour like to talk about unemployment but, while the Conservative Government works to bring unemployment down, the Labour Party are busily embracing policies to put the unemployment rate up. And how they dare to care about the unemployed when they would price people out of work, strike people out of work and tax people out of work? hear hear How can a group be taken seriously, or be considered concerned, when it openly rejects co-operation with this two hundred and thirty million pound scheme which will very substantially increase the number of opportunities for the unemployed in Britain as a whole and in in particular. To suggest that Employment Action is merely to massage the unemployment figures is a feeble excuse for the Labour Group to it's conscience. A great deal of emotive talk exists around the subject of unemployment and, just as there are many different reasons for someone becoming employed, there are equally many r different needs that the unemployed have. Regrettably, many younger people have no experience of the work ethic within their homes. Labour turning on its back on Employment Action will in no way help them gain the necessary experience to be employable, or to be equipped for further training for more advanced skills. Why deny them the benefit of self respect and a sense of purpose, which training on such a scheme would create. We all know the real reason for Labour Group's rejection of Employment Action. It has nothing to do with the plight of the unemployed and everything to do with the power and desire for further power of the Trade Union Movement. Our Labour Councillors don't represent their electorate, they represent the T U C and the vested interests of their own Unions. Only the A E U have the courage to stand up against big brother, the T U C, warning against denying the unemployed a glimmer of hope. To decry d decry Unemployment Action, claiming it to be work is, and at the same time supporting the Labour Party policy which would make it acceptable to receive benefit without training, but illegal to have a job without training, is a strange morality. What is wrong with providing tr training through environmentally useful schemes? It has much to commend it. Even th your chief supporter, the T N A, on September the nineteenth agreed that it was far better, it was far better to use the untapped human resource than to load the ca th the cost on to the community charge payer. The Labour benches had several new members and, dare I suggest, green Councillor , with no memory of the disastrous economic policies of the last Labour Government, or the ensuing distress that it's huge army of unemployed. The party you support created such chaos that unemployment rose by a hundred and thirty one percent. Yes, two thousand three hundred people per week is correct but that was week on every week for five and a half years that Labour held office. Two thousand three hundred per week for five and a half years. Rampant inflation, excessive public expenditure, lack of private investment because of ex excessive tax burdens, and to top it all, an industrial relations policy that brought this country to its knees, making it the subject of derision throughout the world. They were the Labour's disastrous policies for this country. In 1979 the Conservative Government was elected with a clear mandate to tackle the problem of excessive Union powers which was destroying the employment and the livelihood of thousands of people every week. Conservative Governments have honoured that commitment in full and, as a result, continuous strikes, the British disease as they are known, have been eliminated. The elements of success which have turned our economy round are quite clear. The top priority to re reduce inflation, removal of Labour imposed barriers to employment such as Wage Councils, increased and improved training. The Conservative Government since 1983 has created three hundred million, sorry three million, extra jobs. Of course, you will never hear a word about success and achievement from the benches opposite. About the fact that, under Conservative, our productivity has grown faster than Japans'. That our strike record is the best in fifty years. Our standard of living has grown faster than Italy, Sweden and Switzerland. Our exports since 1983 have increased faster than France, Germany and America. Isn't that the way forward to help the unemployed? This Government has spent more money on training than any other Government si in our history, two and a half times as much in real terms as when Labour were in office. Fifty new training places for every one under Labour. Now let's hear something of the policies that Labour would support. Remember, of course, that Labour and the Unions are as thick as thieves, so the gr Labour Group, just like its parliamentary counterpart, is incapable of making a single decision without the Union pulling the strings. More than half Labour's M P's are Union sponsored, a hundred and forty, being the highest since 1935, and eighteen out of the twenty in the shadow cabinet are also Union sponsored and their paymasters will expect plenty in return. Labour would repeal all sensible Union legislation. What about Labour's training commitment? Well, we've had three documents in eighteen months but none with a viable pound sign. Labour only pledge, of course, to er to spend money on pensions and child benefit, so the shadow treasury tell us. Unless, of course, you believe John Smith, whose alternative budget said, nothing for pensions but a two hundred and eighty five million for training. Who do we believe? Labour constantly block help to the unemployed. They have passionately and consistently opposed the first guaranteed yo two year training programme for unemployed school leavers and thirteen Labour controlled Councils pulled out of employment training. even forced it's skill centre to close. Some commitment to the unemployed. An utter disgrace. Where to Labour stand on Training and Enterprise Councils? tries to stress how much they are in favour of them, but Mister is telling people to ease up. Well, I'm happy to tell the Labour Group that tee the T E C's are alive and well and producing results. Labour's half baked Skills UK Scheme would be a national organisation to direct national training. Bureaucrats at every level instead of local TEC's dealing with local training needs. Labour's o Labour's open hostility to employers will do little for business confidence and job creation. Mister would impose sanctions on employers who did not follow Labour's wishes. The proposed jobs tax would be a contribution by all companies to pay for centralised training funds. Back to the bad old days when employers were so busy employing people to push bits of people round and see to inspectors that they didn't have anything to do with training an produced not one single job. Remember, Labour Party, that no legislative approach has been devised that relates training to business needs. Compulsion was mentioned by Councillor but he's too young to remember that compulsion was tried in 1960 Councillor , compulsion was tried in the 1960's and 1970's. It failed miserably. It led to a climate when employers were forced into inappropriate training by m by numbers and mindless forms to avoid . The most disastrous of all Labour's proposed strategy is the National Statutory Minimum Wage and at a modest assumption this proposal would lose seven hundred and fifty thousand jobs. Such a policy would undermine the skill differentials which essential to maintain the incentive for individuals to train. A minimum age would be the death knell of hopes for incru improving the skills of the British people. Labour proved itself incapable of creating a sound economy when in Government. When in opposition it has proved it's policies of a minimum wage, a jobs tax, social charter, support and and s er strikers charter that they would never learn. As far as this Council is concerned, if you are unemployed you will get no constructive help from Labour. Instead they insist that their ideas are simple. If it involves training, boycott it. If it curbs strikes, fight it and if it creates jobs spurn it. Fantastic Councillor On nineteenth June 1991 the Secretary of State for Employment, Michael Howard, announced a new package supposedly to help unemployed people. All this was happening and now this com here comes a Tory record. All this was happening at a time of deep recession worsening by the day with unemployment rising to two and a half million, redundancies up by forty percent in the first four months of ninety one. Bankruptcies, including voluntary and er company liquidations, up by seventy five percent in the first six months of this year. Property repossessions in the Nord Northern region up by forty seven percent in the first first six months. To exacerbate the situation, eighty thousand places were cut from employment training. Whilst our competitors in Europe and elsewhere continued to push their training objectives forward, Britain remains the only modern Western European country which has neither national objectives for training nor a statutory work force and, as yet, no unified or progressive system of national qualifications. The failure of Government to give a real to training arises from it's obsession with market forces and passion for privatisation. The Government is depriving the country of much needed vocational skills and training necessary to revive the industrial decadence caused by the twelve years of Tory control, leaving the potential work force not only unemployed but unemployable. Lord Mayor, Employment Action has been thoroughly debated at the previous Council Committee meetings, with all it's injustices brought to light. It is a no wage work scheme designed cynical to the employment figures in the wake of pending general election. We, on this side, are concerned about the plight of unemployed and are currently running training schemes to help them back into labour market. In E I D, for instance, we run pre-vocational and initial training. Both are customised to help the trainees progress to adult training. Employment Action is by far from being impeccable. It lacks the necessary ingredients of programme with a training element in it. Even the TEC's have spotted this deficiency, many of them deciding to shun it altogether. Some scare-mongering tactics have been adopted by the Tories to compel us into participating the emp in employment action. All of a sudden they have become sympathetic to a work force, the very people who have been threatened with Government's legislation on competitive tendering. Lord Mayor, I therefore support our motion. Thank you. Councillor M my Lord Mayor Thank you my Lord Mayor Mayor, three months ago the E I D sub-committee Labour members rejected the Employment Action Scheme. A month ago the committee Labour members rejected this Scheme and I still have an enormous sense of amazement and anger that the local, and I express local, because it's not a national policy, that the local Labour group could act in such a callous and spiteful way, putting political dogma, party political dogma, before the needs of the unemployed in the district. And I doubt whether Councillor has read the papers. I mean, I've read em very thoroughly and I've read the reports of the officers. In these three months there has been nothing but support for this scheme, some of it qualified, but nevertheless support, that it should go ahead. Even the T U C, only the T U C and the Labour Party have been completely negative and rejected it out of hand. Our Council officers, and I refer to their report, recommended that we applied to run the Scheme. They fully considered that there was merit, great merit, in running it as far as the Council was concerned. And if you read the report, you can do nothing but agree. Councillor has referred to the editorial of the Telegraph and Argos. Can I just enlarge upon that because, and quote from it, by boycotting employment action the CoUncil's controlling group seem to have made a bad decision, prompted by a desire to score political points in the debating chamber. hear hear It is a shame that the local Labour Party, these are the editor's words, not mine, it is a shame that the local Labour Party has set its face against the scheme. The Telegraph and Argos, I quote. Well done the T and A , bless , president of the A V W Engineering Union, gave a warning to the T U C against denying the unemployed the opportunity to join the Scheme. And even , the Labour national spokesman, said to the T U C, it is unwise to reject the Scheme, it is not a good idea to say you will not co-operate with it. The local TEC board, on which I think the leader of the Council serves Yes indeed Good. Decided to bid to operate the Scheme providing there was a stronger training element and moves have been made in that direction. TEC plans to use Employment Action as a pre-adult training phase, and Councillor , it intends to use it for those trainees who need extra help and resource, those that you referred to, those requiring language training, those requiring literacy and numeracy training, Councillor the very group that you referred to. And Council officers say that this is particularly attractive in the situation and I agree. One year unemployment action plus one year adult training would achieve the long term objective for those unemployed, with special needs. You referred to those Councillor . TEC has also indicated that appropriate project work for Employment Action would fall into such categories as child care, you agree with child care presumably, energy conservation, you agree with energy conservation, environmental issues, security, tourism. Our officers say that this fits in perfectly with our plans for existing and new projects and I believe the officers. So why oh why do the Labour Party reject the Scheme when it will cater for those unemployed they profess to care about, when it will cater for those projects of benefit to the community the Labour party profess to care about. I've listened very carefully to Councillor and I haven't learnt a thing about the answer to various questions which were raised at E I D and and I ask it again, why do you really reject the Scheme? All I hear by way of reply are vague comments about massaging the unemployment figures. I think we even heard the cry, we want a minimum, we want a minimum wage, and everyone knows what that would do to the unemployment figures. Seven hundred and fifty thousand to a million more on unemployment. Is that massaging the figures? My Lord Mayor, my Lord Mayor, I started by saying how angry and dismayed I was on the twenty fourth of July. Three months on I er I'm even mor angry, appalled and disgusted at the hypocrisy of the members opposite because, if they really care about the unemployed, why don't they support this Scheme? If you really care about the unemployed with special needs, if you really care about special projects for which they work upon, you should support the Scheme. Quite frankly, you have time to change your minds because if you don't change your minds, those unemployed in with special needs will never forgive you and I certainly won't. Councillor bring your remarks to a conclusion please Councillor is on his feet My Lord Mayor, I move under standing order A fifteen B that the vote now be put. Thank you. sec those in favour? that is carried, forty nine votes to thirty. Those in favour of amendment B moved by Councillor please show. Those against? yes That is lost, thirty to forty nine. Those in favour of the substantive motion incorporating amendment A please show Please show Those against? Some of them That is carried, forty nine to thirty two. In this Authority that one proposition stands to lose some fifty teachers to schools and it's ah worse in many other districts. What's it's essentially about is getting rid of the most experienced teachers in the district. Can that be good for education? It can't surely, but it's what the Government want to do with L M S. Of course, they have a real agenda behind Local Management which is more to do with market led economy education, competition,, elitiveness, the end of the Local Authority. And they're using the principle of devolution and delegation, of participation and decision making as a vehicle for bringing us about. Councillor is on record, in fact not long after taking his job, that he doesn't care much for state education, he prefers , grant maintained schools,the assisted places scheme, which I'm pleased to say, Lord Mayor, we don't operate in this district and neither did the Tories when they were in power and I applaud them for that hear hear This attack is yet another divisive scheme But Councillor , his first public statement was to support all those gimmicks and to say that he wanted an end to the three tier system in , turned his back on all our middle schools. His only interest was bringing back grammar schools, that's really what he wanted to do. Well, Lord Mayor, that's on no-one's agenda over here. I'm working hard, with colleagues, to provide a fair education system throughout the district and I'm pleased to say, Lord Mayor, when the Tories talk of petty interference, it's interpreted by our head teachers and schools as co-operation, consultation, our listening ear, yes, Councillor and Councillor , they'll listen and if they've got the money they'll assist our schools. Lord Mayor, I support the Labour Group's er recommendations. I think we have salvaged the L M S Scheme in and when we get a national Labour Government we'll be able to make sure that it protects, it protects, those children with special needs, those children from socially deprived backgrounds in this city and protects our most experienced teachers. Lord Mayor, clearly that is what the Tories do not want to happen in . Thank you Lord Mayor Well done Councillor My Lord Mayor, I move understanding order A fifteen B that the vote now be put. Thank you. Seconded, my Lord Mayor. Those in favour? Those against? That is carried, forty nine votes to thirty Those in favour of amendment C moved by Councillor please show Those against? We'll now vote on those in favour of an amendment standing in the name of ex-Councillor . Those in favour please show Those against? twenty eight Mhm? twenty eight Two and twenty eight. That is lost to four to twenty against. We'll now move on to an amendment standing in the name of Councillor . Will those in favour please show? Those against? it's forty nine, fifty one That is lost, thirty votes to fifty one now deal with an amendment standing in the name of Councillor Those in favour please show Those against? the two liberals Mhm? thirty two Thirty two That is carried, forty nine for, thirty two against, which brings us now to voting on the substantive motion. Those in favour please show. Those against? That is carried, forty nine for, thirty two against. Which now brings us on to er item eleven on the agenda which are notices of motion, the first one being houses housing land for speculators. Call upon Councillor to move the motion together with amendment D standing in his name. Moved Lord Mayor Seconded Lord Mayor In accordance with standing order A thirteen little C this motion will stand referred to the Housing and Environmental Protection Committee for consideration and report unless the Council decide to deal with it at this meeting. What are the Council's wishes? My l Lord Mayor, I move, that the item be referred to the Housing and Environmental Protection Committee under standing order A twenty three for consideration and a decision and that the right to defer the matter back to Council be removed. seconded Seconded? Those in favour please show get up get up. It's gonna be a short evening Mhm? Those against thirty two . That is carried, forty nine for, thirty two against. The next white paper motion is on road safety and traffic calming measures. Call upon Councillor to move a motion, together with amendment F standing in his name. Seconded? Seconded my Lord Mayor I call upon Councillor to hem amendment G standing in his name. I move Lord Mayor Is there a seconder? Seconded my Lord Mayor In accordance with standing order A thirteen little C this motion will stand referred to the Community and Environment Services Committee for consideration and report unless the Council decide to deal with it at this meeting. What are the Council's wishes? I move that the item be referred to the Transportation and Highways Engineering Sub-Committee under standing order A twenty three for consideration and the decision and that the right to defer the matter back to Committee or and Council be removed. Those in favour? Those against?thirty two that's carried, forty nine thirty two That is carried, forty nine for, thirty two against. We've come to er the third white paper motion, the Childrens Act. Call upon Mrs to move the motion. Is there a seconder? Call upon Councillor to move amendment H standing in his name. Move it, Lord Mayor Is there a seconder? Seconded Lord Mayor I call upon Councillor to move amendment I standing in his name I move Lord Mayor Is there a seconder? Lord Mayor In accordance with standing order A thirteen little C, this motion will stand referred to the Social Services Committee for consideration and report unless the Council decide to deal with it at this meeting. What are the Council's wishes? Lord Mayor, I D that the item be debated at this meeting, without first it receiving report from Social Services Committee on the grounds that the matter is urgent in the meaning of the section three one of the Local Authority and Social Services Act of 1970. I so move Lord Mayor. Seconded my Lord Mayor. Those in favour? Mhm? Mhm There's nobody appears to be against it, so it'll c My Lord Mayor, members of Council. I welcome the new Children Act which became law earlier this month. It is a new legal framework for child care and came about as a result of lessons learnt from Lord enquiry into child abuse in Cleveland in 1987. It is a credit to Social Services officers that many of the new policies for children had already been adopted, and you can be proud of the work being done in this area. However, there is always room for improvement and I think the public has little idea of the enormous problems that confront us, all of us, as the parents of these children in care. The emphasis of the new Act, and already a policy of this Council, is to keep children with their natural parents whenever possible. The prime responsibility for bringing up children rests with parents. This means providing help and support in the home, the provision of day centres and family centres, and all this we do. On the other hand the needs and welfare of the child must be paramount and if a child is deemed to be in danger, or at any particular risk, the child must be removed. In the new Act parents can appeal against the child's removal after seventy two hours. Previously they had to wait twenty eight days before doing so. Children who do come in to care are placed with other families where possible and again is fortunate in having an experienced network of foster parents and link carers and we can't thank them enough. In the new Act the positive role of relatives and friends is also recognised, but it must be obvious to everyone that some children are just so difficult, often having been very badly abused, and with severe behaviour problems, that they cannot be contained in a family and these children are placed in residential homes. Let me say at once what a very difficult job the residential staff have, often in poor accommodation and with very poor wages, and with the most difficult and damaged children. I welcome the Labour Party's proposals to refurbish some of these homes. I just hope it's done quickly. We in the childrens services have known for two years that something more must be done and we must pay our staff more. We have s training schemes with support money from the Government. The trouble is that with more training some of the staff quite naturally move to more lucrative jobs. In the new Act children are then to have a say in what they want and in the plans made for them. Given this, they m may be more co-operative and, even if living away from home, they have a strength and right of contact with their family. This all seems to make sense to me and I welcome the fact that this Act recognises children also have their rights. If all this leads the controlling group to scream for more money from the Government, and it will inevitably, I suggest they start using the money they have more sensibly and not waste it on their more extravagant schemes. hear hear For instance, festival, trips abroad, more and more committees with more and more meddlers, hence more paper, more secretarial work, all these neighbourhood forums, liaison groups and area panels, all costing a lot, talking a lot and doing very little hear hear All the new traffic islands in this city. Just a fraction of this, just a fraction of this money directed towards our children and their services would help enormously Help our children to grow into good citizens for . Ensure a brighter f future for us as well as them. Thank you my Lord Mayor Councillor Thank you Lord Mayor. Mrs er has er actually said that we should be getting some more money and then she spoilt it by saying we should be using the money we haven't got more er better use it and er maybe knocking the traffic li er islands out will save us a problem cos we'll get a few kids knocked down and we won't have to bother with em. That's the only thing I can say cos I can't understand how anybody can talk about traffic islands for er children in need And what I'd like to do is, we do welcome this Act cos y'know we're not dog in a manger, when there's a good Act well, we'll welcome it and we'll say so. But, as usual, the Conservative Government have spoiled it. They've undermined it by not allocating resources. Just to highli I'd just like to highlight a few of the principles before I comment on this dishonesty of this Government in, on the one hand enacting a major piece of legislation and on the other hand doing it in such a way that Councils'll settle for failure because resources have not been allocated. Th what Labour would do would be ring fence the money, that's what Labour would do and I'll come on to that later if you give me a chance. Th the, one of the main principles is a comprehensive clarification and rationalisation of child care law, probably the biggest we're gonna get this century, and basic principles, as Councillor is that parental responsibility cannot be lost through the process of law. Regardless of who's caring for the child, both parents are still responsible and should still be involved in any decision making. It requires the Local Authority to seek alternatives in order to keep the child in the family, rather than legal routes for admitting children to care. It str strengthens the responsibility of Authorities to take into account racial and cultural needs when making plans for children. It recognises the children as the major actors in any decision making and ensures that their rights and involvements in decision making are enhanced. It requires Local Authorities and other agencies to co-operate with Social Services in responding to children in need. All these principles the Labour Group champion and support. But what about resources? The first resource I wanna talk about is not the resources, the Local Authority resources, the resources of the family. The family who has to care for children whether they've got disabilities or not and the whole intention of this Act is that children are best cared for by parents and any alternative is second best. Yet the basic requirements for a family to do this, a decent home, a decent job, good education services, good health services for children with disabilities, recreational facilities and support systems in the community. Every one of these requirements have been consistently attacked over twelve years by the Conservative Government. It's fine to pass Acts but even a good Act are no good if their parents are expected to care for the child without resources. Who considers our housing stock adequate and f that it provides a satisfactory environment to give facilities to parents? Who considers there are sufficient play and other activities to keep young people out of trouble? I'll give you two examples of the other side of Tories doing an Act. Under the 1989 Housing and Local Government Act a man, living in a thirty thousand pound house with a mortgage. He has three children. He's got six hundred pound a month clear. The middle child is severely disabled and necessary d adaptations would cost him three thousand seven hundred, that's what he's gotta find, and he cannot afford it, he can't afford to borrow that. That's one of the Acts that works against children in need. And also, when handicapped children are placed in foster homes, the foster parent is assis assessed as a contributor, which of course the Local Authority has to pay. We've a case where it cost ten thousand pounds. That ain't helping to do things for children. All these things are what the Childrens Act is about, but it's not presumably what the Conservative Government is about. The resources of the Social Services are purposely put last because really we don't wanna be involved. We want the parents to be able to cope. We want the spirit of the Act, that the parents should be in position to cope, to come through, but they're certainly not gonna be. At this point I'd just like to comment on Virginia Bottomley's contention that she'd give twenty four percent to Social Services extra in S S A to the ac for the Act. It were twenty four percent of virtually the same amount so the age old problem of the Conservatives robbing Peter to pay Paul. If you wanna take the money out of education, housing, and sweeping and cleaning the streets, then we could have it in Social Services. That's what it means. No, we didn't get it. That's w that's what it means. It's it's lies. That's what she's saying. She said she'd give twenty four percent darn lies then it's lies darn lies As a Council, as Councillor says, we've done everything we can to prepare for the Act. We've worked hard to develop inter-directory and inter-agency working, we've trained a high proportion of the staff and we are recognising that re- organising the directorate to provide specialist children's service. They've undertaken pilot schemes in three key areas of the Childrens Act. Definitions of children in need, emergency protection orders and accommodation agreements. We've tried to fulfil our responsibilities as good parents. But as a Labour Group, we welcome this motion because it demonstrates the dishonesty of the Conservative Government in passing one of the most enlightened pieces of legislation without any of the resources to implement it. Lord Mayor, I move. Well done Councillor made a speech in the Council Chamber and I've tur No, hold on, and I've turned up with the wrong one. I too could give you a very good speech on traffic island but I'll save that for the Transportation Highways and Engineering Sub- Committee. On the Childrens Act, I just want to say one thing briefly. There's been very little said about the actual content of the Childrens Act and I think it actually gets all Party's support, which is, which is excellent. What I want to say is one thing about the public's perception of the political scene at the moment. They are absolutely fed up with political point scoring. Er, wrong party. And I think er and I think we're gonna get a lot more political point scoring t er further on this evening. We've got a lot more to look forward to. We've tried to frame our motion as carefully as we could t so we could actually get support from everybody. There is concern about funding for the Childrens Act and it's too important to start scoring political points, whether there's a general election or not t and I must admit I was off, I was off ill, off work during the week of the Tory Party Conference. It was actually something that happened before the Tory Party Conference but it didn't, it didn't actually help me recover and nearly every day, nearly every speaker actually attacked Local Government in some way. What the Children Act does at least recognise in the Conservative Government passing the Childrens Act is the importance of Local Government. These are very important services and they are placed, just like care in the community will be, when it eventually is put into practice. They will actually responsibility of Local Government and er we've tried to put in here something that even Conservative Councillors could support, even though it's attacking Conservative Ministers, cos they must actually believe in Local Government to actually serve on Local Government, one would think, but er, but th the problems of under-funding are th could be very serious. During the summer we had serious problems report on childrens homes which erm which y'know which pointed out a few things y'know that hadn't been doing well, mainly, mainly in defence of erm because they did put in a lot of effort Right. start. Erm you've worked first of all as erm a probation officer. Yes. Erm probation office The one right right next right underneath the flats. Erm between what years did you you work there? From nineteen seventy seven through to nineteen eighty two. And since nineteen eighty two, am I right in saying that you've worked at the law centre in ? Yes. Yes I've kept up contacts with people. Mhm. Erm starting with your work as a probation officer. Erm sis you have a lot of contact with tenants in the flats? We did yes. We were on the ground floor of the flats, and we got to know a lot of them as neighbours as well as some of them as clients. And we shared some of the same problems, sewage s leaking into the offices and asbestos lagging round the piping. So yeah, we got on Mhm. pretty well. And worked with the tenants association too. Mhm. And what kind of work did you do with the tenants' association? Erm it it varied really w we saw our role in general as being to to support and and facilitate the activities that they wanted to get involved Yeah. in. R not to sort o determine in any way, the kinds of issues they took up. Erm the the probation office itself has b had a rather big conference room, and Mhm. and that was a facility that we made available to the tenants group for public meetings and and that kind of thing. Erm we also offered everything from sort of secretarial help and er use of photocopiers and duplicators, to the tenants' group, through to I guess being able to perhaps suggest to them who in the council it might be that they needed to speak to, or perhaps tactically how to to go about achieving their particular aims. Erm certainly a lot of meetings in the early days, focused on the level of policing in the flats. Or as tenants saw it, the lack of policing in the flats. Mhm. And er to some extent, probation obviously had something to say about that. Tt. In terms of policing, was it erm you were saying about there was a view that the police were not There was a feeling that you never saw a policeman. Actually walking through the complex. And er the people who lived in the flats felt unprotected and and isolated from er from police support. Mhm. Why do you think there was a f a fear that people wanted the police to erm going round the co I presume they wanted more wanted more police activity. They wanted the police to be seen a lot more. Was that Why do you think that was the case? People felt that way? There obviously was er the odd incident actually inside the flats. Mhm. Fights, G B Hs, erm the occasional mugging. And just the sense of security and I don't think that the level of incidence was very high, but it was enough to make people feel insecure about walking through there at night. Wi without any you know, without any police presence around. Mhm. Did you have much contact with erm individual clients in the flats? Or I do What a lot of contact with individual Yeah. people in the flats? Some Mhm. some as actual probation clients. Erm and as many a as many people I have contact with through either the tenants' group or through the the Dayroom, which was erm set up in the probation office, but was for people who lived in the area, not necessarily for Mhm. Okay what Yeah. offenders. Now what was the Dayroom? Well w we just er opened it s I think it was three and a half days a week. Yeah. Just flung the doors open Mhm. basically, and and said, you know, This is a place local people can come into for at least initially a cup of tea, a chat, whatever. And the idea was to provide a a place where where hopefully local people could erm identify for themselves the problems that they shared in common. And take some kind of action. It wasn't intended to duplicate, the work of the tenants' association, it was it was looking at different kinds of of issues. And issues that also affected people in the surrounding streets, not just people in the flats themselves. So being on supplementary benefit was one of the obvious things that people in the dayroom, chose to look at, cos it affected most of them. Erm I think it it it started off, people would come in the dayroom, with their own supplementary benefit problem, and and clearly we had the sort of handbooks there and and they saw the probation officers on on duty as people who could help them to sort out that sort out that kind of problem. Erm but f what it moved towards was them recognizing that they could sort out their own problems, and perhaps sort out each others. And so a sort of small welfare rights group began to form in the dayroom. Mhm. And and that eventually led on to them contacting other interested groups in the area erm like some lawyers from a legal action group, and er other other groups who meet together for whatever purpose in the area, and and setting up Free Legal and Welfare Rights, which was a a formal advice session run on a Thursday night. A lot of local people erm put a lot of effort into creating that that organization. and and kept it going. Erm right through till eighty two when it actually got funding. Mhm. Was that the Am I right in saying, that was the origins of Of the law centre? That's right . Am I right in saying that? Yes. Yes it was. And the the local people and professionals who were involved erm proved the need if you like. Demonstrated the level of need in the area, for legal, welfare rights advice. Did all the groundwork, did the lobbying, got in touch with the councillors, wrote the application for money. And finally after two years the a full time centre was set up. And many of those either lived in the flats or in the surrounding surrounding streets. Mhm. Moving on, erm in te you know obviously you must have had a fair amount of c you said you had a fair amount of contact with erm tenants in the flats. Erm during the time you were there, between seventy seven and eighty two, and you've probably kept some contact since. Have things changed in the flats at all?would you say that in terms of the way people feel. Erm It it's changed at Or various points in time. Yeah. When I when I first got to know the flats, certainly after the the incident of a of an elderly lady being erm being mugged and beaten up by some some kids up there. Mm. Certainly after that incident and all the erm the very overly dramatic publicity that centred on the flats. Erm I don't know the figures, but the feeling certainly was that everybody wanted to get out, and thy wanted to get out as quickly as they could. As a result of that incident?and the publicity? Erm certainly that that highlighted for people, the the sort of fears that they may have had before. And and generated fears that were unrealistic, and the press report sort of had, you know one rape, one mugging every every three minutes, or something crazy. And certainly there was a high turnover for a couple of years erm late seventies. And it was very difficult to erm to get to get much activity going in the flats cos people's people's aim was to get out rather than to improve the conditions or or work on local issues. They weren't gonna be there long enough. Or at least they didn't want to be there long enough. And then it it then it settled again I think, in the very late seventies through to the early eighties. There seemed to be a period of of much more stability in the population Mhm. up there. Erm see the last couple of years it's changed again. Mhm. Particularly with the the s the strong belief that the flats were going to come down which has subsequently proved to be true. People are taking the opportunity to get out when they can. A lot A lot of well quite a few people and I mean th have been in the flats way before I came to to . And have quite a lot of good things to say about the flats and the Mhm. area. Yeah, what kind of good points do they make? I think two levels really. One is th the actual facilities round . Mhm. Erm you know it's it's near th near town, it's near good shops, it's near near the schools. You've got the little bank of sort of library and arts and crafts centre Yeah. and youth club. So it it's it's not as isolated i as some of the the more modern council estates, that are sort o stuck on the edge of the the city. And are great sprawling er masses of property. Er and some people have have formed strong friendships and and strong contacts with other residents in the flats. And for them Mhm. this is where their friends are. Mhm. On the basis of your experience you know,you was you said that, the fact that erm sometimes you've got tenants who've formed really good relationships in the flat. That's erm would you say that obviously it's a b it's very difficult to actually ask cos it to some extent you'd be generalizing anyway, would you say that people in the flats, do stick together or or do you get some people who isolated and just k just don't have any flats? I mean how how does it I think it's difficult to make friends Yeah. in the flats. Mhm. Erm just the the geography of the flats doesn't help much. I mean you're you're gonna bump into your your neighbour opposite I suppose, both walking up and down the stairs, but but that's about all really. There's no erm there's no I dunno, bit of front garden where you where you feel secure, but you can have a chat with other people, it's it's an isolating design. Erm so it always seemed as if something else was the trigger for friendships . I mean people ha found they had something else in common. Kids in the same class at school. Erm or a need to I dunno find some sort of facility in common. I mean th there w there was always some kind of trigger that that that broke that initial feeling of isolation and and suspicion. And I think people were quite suspicious of of their neighbours. Er until they actually met them and got to know them. Yeah. Why why do you feel it is that people are suspicious of their neighbours? I mean I Several people who came into the area Yeah. c came in with with the the reputation and the press reports about the area, firmly embedded in their in their head. And that that would make anybody initially very suspicious of of getting to know o other people there. I mean the the press reports on the flats have always been, erm very unjust and very very disturbing. So you're saying you're the in terms of the media and how it's erm presented to the outside world, I mean what do you what do you f that You've said this now you felt you feel it's unfair. Erm Well yeah. I mean it's it's portrayed the the flats as a sort of nest of of criminals you know. Erm high high level of crime. Of all varieties, erm violent crime, prostitution, theft, muggings. That's the sort of image it's been given. Er i and it was given that image by pointing the cameras at at at the flats, and then spieling off the crime figures for the whole subdivision. Which is a massive area. Er but you know, it's it's very effective I meant it's stuck. That's that. And it's reputation has travelled or it it's false reputation has travelled quite a long way. Mhm. I mean you go to other towns, they they might not know Nottingham, but they've usually heard of . So what impact does that erm basis of your experience, what impact does that have, when this is the kind of publicity? What impact does it have on the tenants who are living in the flats? Well c certainly I mean obviously it has an impact on on individuals who feel Yeah. cautious and and er suspicious and also angry about being labelled in that kind of way. Erm but, at it at its worst I mean the worst publicity followed this this incident of a an elderly lady having her fingers broken and and money stolen off her by some some lads in their I don't know late early teens I think. Erm and that brought everybody down. I mean all the cameras, erm all the newspapers from the the sort of cheap tabloid ones, right through to Sunday Times, Observer. I mean the place was just buzzing with with journalists. And er not much of the publicity was fair or accurate. And that did result in a group of of people getting together and saying, We want to do something, to to rectify this this bad image and show the good side of . Mhm. Erm and they they put in an awful lot of work in in setting up the Festival. Which was very much a local affair. Kids from the local schools, erm small stalls with with handmade handmade stuff, erm local bands, local music, local food. Er it was it was great, it was er it was coming out and saying, There are lots of good things happening in this area . Mhm. And we're we're proud of living here. And the press did come down, I mean it got some coverage. The the festival I th went on I think for for three summers. Mhm. Erm What years were they? What years It's very hard to remember. Seventy seven I would think it was seventy nine, eighty and eighty one. Mhm. As a guess. Erm. Who was actually involved in organizing that? Was that something that came from I mean, to what extent if at all were were erm tenants of the flats involved in that? Well the tenants of the flats were very heavily involved in that . Erm I think at that stage, Robin was the the chairman of the tenants association , Mhm. and he was very active on the committee. I think Stan may have may have been around. Stan , during the festival as well. Erm but yes, lots of people from the flats, either taking part in terms of sitting on the committee and doing all the planning and getting all the various permissions that you needed to do all sorts of things. Erm or just being involved on the day, helping out on the stalls. Or just taking part by coming. It was very much a flats activity. Mhm. Erm again a little bit of support from people who worked in the area. But you know, of the practical kind that you need. Somewhere to meet, telephone to use, how to get publicity out. Erm but it didn't come from professionals at all, it came from people wanting to make some other kind of statement, about what what Flats were like . Mhm. By by the third Summer I think it had outlived its usefulness and it had become much more like a a mini-goose fair. And I certainly didn't particularly enjoy it i in the final year. It was too big and it was divorced from the flats and the the people in the flats. But it served its purpose. So you'd say that as a b er as a result of that it did it did er so it did When you say it served its purpose, it did improve the image? It did improve the image and it it improved people's confidence I think in themselves and in the area. Mhm. And must have been I think it was one of the things that that helped to lead to a more settled period. Mhm. People not not moving out at quite the same rate of knots. Mhm. Erm moving again . Erm one of the things that is said which is is that, in the flats, an exceptionally high proportion of tenants erm are reliant for for are on benefits. And obviously that adds certain constraints to to sort of erm income. What kind of impact do you think it has, actually an area that you ju that the flats complex, in which there's basically, not as mass mass relative poverty? Well it it obviously reduces the the amount of er of cash that's sort of flowing round the . Mhm. And obviously it's had an impact on the row of shops out on Road for example. If you look at erm the the turnover of shops down that road, then that must say something about the amount of money in the area. I think I I mean it' ironic really, I think they're at last getting erm the kinds of shops that that best suit the area, on Road now. I mean for the first time there's a erm a sort of Asian wholesale supermarket. Opened up. Erm t to me it's amazing that that has never happened before, if you think of the the Asian population, certainly in in the , area. Erm I dunno, they always seem to get it wrong. I mean they put the strangest shops on Road. That that didn't really deal initially with with what the population needed, which was cheap decent food and and and cheap decent clothing. It's perhaps improved somewhat over the years. Er lack of money cuts down everybody's options. I mean that's what it does, it reduces people's choice. Er it also had practical consequences. Well I think partly the reputation of of the flats and also the general knowledge that not very many people in the flats have much money. Erm had an influence on on credit. People couldn't get it. I mean they they would go right through the process of buying something on credit, and it would be fine until it got to, Erm where do you live. And as soon as er an address on the flats was given out, the offer of credit was withdrawn. Mhm. Again, because it was seen as being you know, an area of bad payers. mhm. Bad debtors. Erm not not correct, I'm sure not accurate in terms of the numbers of population. But that's what that's what shops in in town believed. So so what you're saying is it was not related that credit was refused, not because of that fact that say people were actually on benefits, cos er the same person actually somewhere else would would probably get It's the very fact they actually live in the flats, that actually has largely accounted for people not being able to get credit . Yes I'm sure. Yes. Yeah. It was also er i it also made the area a target for er money lenders of the worst variety. Erm I mean obviously you've got people up in the flats who at times, hit absolute desperate rock-bottom situations. Erm you know, no bank's gonna give them a loan. Maybe they can't pay the the 'leccy bill and they're in rent arrears and you know it's Christmas and the kids want everything they see on the television. Y you know it's it doesn't take much to push someone into the situation where they're prepared to to take a big loan from a money lender, to try and clear all their other debts. And er unfortunately that's usually pretty disastrous. Er the money lender that that focus on areas like the flats, er charge exorbitant rates of interest for repayment. And aren't averse to using fairly unpleasant methods to er to get the money back if you begin to default on payments. Er a lot a lot of those merchants used to Probably still do, mooch round the flats. Prey preying on people's property. I think what what what never ceases to amaze me about about people in the flats on benefit, is is how many of them do manage, how many of them never owe a penny. How many of them turn their kids out, erm you know, in decent clothes, properly fed. I mean I don't think I could do it. I I find it extraordinary. I mean I know how some of them do do it. They do it by going without themselves. Erm jumble sales have always been popular in . There's many a a mum you know, who'll who'll clothe herself from a jumble sale. Maybe not clothe her kids, but clothe herself from one. Erm and nights out on the town, you know, trips to the pictures, that kind of thing are are are rare events to say the least. It's extraordinary how people do manage Mhm. Without erm you know Mhm. resorting to to the things I'm sure I'd resort to, like shoplifting or the methods of gaining money. A lot of people who I'd just describe as having I dunno, people with real dignity and real sense of pride who manage to to bring up their kids and and survive in a decent way, in quite a hostile environment. You know, poor housing and no money are two critical factors that operate against people round here. So I've got a lot of admiration for for people living in these flats. Having said this now about a hostile environment. That people were in the flats were operating in a in a hostile environment, you said, low income and bad housing. What what do you think can the can they force someone actually in that situation What th what the consequences Yeah. and be? I mean you've spoken about how resilient some tenants are. Yes. And how well the they've done in that situation. Well if if you add to those two factors, erm isolation and and loneliness, erm then the consequences can vary I mean certainly there were large numbers or quite a few elderly people up in the flats, who who survived who survived very poorly really. Both in terms of social contact and er and also just in erm in literal terms, being properly fed and you know keeping warm over the Winter. Erm I mean they they they didn't venture out the flats, they didn't know who or how to contact for help, and and some of them you know, were were pretty bad over the Winter periods. But you only find out when something dramatic happens. A lot of very young single mums, if the didn't have relative in the area, found the pressures of living in the flats on benefit, er pretty severe. Er and we all know about non-accidental injury. And I suppose broadly speaking there are two kinds. I mean there's the sort of psychopathic, non-accidental injury that you're never gonna be able to do anything about, and it's best just to take the kids away and and and break the link completely. But there's a lot of non-accidental injury that that results from from someone being unable to cope with the pressures they're under. And and certainly that occurred in the flats. And given you know just just a bit of help, be it financial or or erm housing or or help in terms of of contact and support and er you know having having people round you you can call on. For help even if it's only in the emotional kind. Just a little bit of help can er can can bring those families back together and prevent those situations happening again. But yes, I mean there was b battering went on in the flats from time to time. Er not helped much by by er blues parties that went on. Mhm. There was quite genuine concern you know, when blues parties went on for for days and days and days. Erm about the risk. Cos you know, you you're cracking up with the noise, it's quite easy to to er shake your three year old or your Mhm. Your six month old baby under those sorts of pressures. blues parties was that Has that been a major problem in the flats? I think it's been a continuing problem in the flats. Erm it perhaps hasn't been as major as as people might er have thought it should be. Er people are very very good actually at enduring them and er and taking them in some ways for granted. So it's part of you know, part of the the penalty if you like, of living in the flats. Erm there was a cutoff point. And and certainly when when that was broken, then then people did start to come out publicly and complain. Er I mean they there were one or two that just went on literally for days and days and days and days. And that erm led to a lot of people coming down to the probation office, asking, you know, what if anything they could do about the noise up there. And i in sort of legal terms, I mean there are remedies that you can take against noise. But they're so long winded erm you know, you you might sort of you might win at the end of the day, but the blues party will have stopped six months ago. . You get any sort of legal action. Erm I mean that was quite odd really, we had er quite a few white tenants coming in to one end of the building, erm just saying that, you know, We just can't cope with it any more. And we had one or two er black lads coming in the other end of the building, saying, We know they've come down here to complain about us, you know, Don't you listen to them, but where else are we supposed to go? So a lot of sort of tracking to and fro between one end of the office, hoping that the two groups wouldn't meet. And I suppo I mean all that happened with that particular one was a couple of erm of er black black I think they were youth workers, I'm not actually sure. But black professionals who had the respect of of the young element in the flats. Got involved and cooled it down a bit and er and found some of the people some premises, and I think got them some money from Duke of Edinburgh award scheme or something, to buy music music equipment. But I mean they spring up every summer. And it's hard you know,Ho How do you deal with it? I dunno. No one no one could say that they could endure noise, and it must be awful to live next door to it. Erm but it is it's it's a it's a cultural it's a cultural issue. You can't I mean you can't just prosecute it and it will go away. It's just spring up somewhere else. Mhm. Lots of suggestions, old cinemas were going to be used as a sort of permanent blues club. There was an idea of using part of the forest for a an area for blues. Erm but of course the the other problem was that that blues parties erm were also places where a lot of ganja was smoked. So you can't actually sort of get a licence to have an all out blues party with ganja. So it still wasn't gonna meet the actual need that prompted them to occur in the first place. Er it led to s to trouble at times, but as I say, less trouble than you might imagine. Mhm. Erm do you know in in the flats, erm different ethnic groups. What kind of relationship did they have with erm white tenants Has there been much racial tension in the flats or has that been insignificant I don't think there has. I think there's been surprisingly little er perhaps it's a slightly romantic notion, but I think it's it's got something to do with, you're all enduring the same kind of misery together. You know. It perhaps diffuses and dilute that kind of erm of racial tension from building up. Erm I mean you know it's sort of there were certainly there were certainly groups of black tenants and white tenants who mixed, and there were certainly groups of of white tenants who wouldn't mix with the black tenants and vice versa. And here people can operate erm have that sort of segregationist attitudes, but that's not the same as as saying that they had sort of hostile feelings. Erm no surprisingly little. Do you kn do you know prior to the eighty one disturbances? Yeah? Erm you were telling me when we had the preliminary interview about erm what happened a few months prior to the disturbances that occurred in the late Summer. Erm when a car went past. Yeah that's right. Cos I happened to be out on Road, when it happened Mhm. It was just this this car, well it was very quiet, that not much traffic about. And this car went th right through the through Road. With all the windows open. Driving fairly slowly and and shouting erm racist slogans out the window. But there was also what certainly everyone judged to be a a sawn off shotgun, pointed out one of the back windows. Erm and I mean the people who saw it, everyone was indignant. I mean the the white people who saw it were indignant. And everyone was quite fearful I think about whether sort of outside influences were gonna sort of introduce erm you know race riots inverted commas commas into the area. Er it was reported to the police and and everyone was a bit dissatisfied. about the outcome of that. i mean they did get the guys. And I think they were charged with something minor like threatening behaviour or breach of the peace, something like that. Erm it was felt that it warranted something a lot stronger than that. Er I think the difficulty was, there wasn't much they could charge him with. Erm some people around, particularly a the Asian population around w then became worried about what sort of support they would actually get from, the police in real terms if outsiders came into the area. And started to stir up you know, racial hatred. Erm By that time I mean the there had been lots of problems in other cities. There had been you know, what was termed incidents resulting from racial tension. In other areas. So it was kind of an issue that was felt not to be happening in , but there was fear that it could it could be introduce you know, as I say, from outside. I mean, a feeling that it it wasn't naturally in the area but it could be stirred up. By outsiders coming in. Erm and that's you know I think that's was wasn't an entirely unrealistic fear. There are always gonna be a a set of of people in any area who erm who will latch on to to racist attitudes and racist acts if if someone comes in waving that as an you know, as an organized activity. as I say, it was followed I mean it wasn there was no link between the two things. At least I don't think there was. But it was followed a few months later by sort of mini riot. Mhm. So could you tell us a bit about that. What actually happened when these disturbances took place. What what sort did it. Was it a sudden occurrence, was there some kind of build up or There there was a build up in that I think we we were one of the last towns to have the problem. I think ours came on the sort of third day of the riot, so you'd already had erm Birmingham going and er i think Bristol as well, had gone by then. So there was obviously a lot of debate around, you know, Is it going to happen? and if it does happen, well it'll clearly happen in . Erm i it was strange I know, I can't explain it logically, it was just we we certainly we felt in the office that we would somehow know if and when it was gonna happen. And that seemed to be a feeling that was er generally shared, well certainly shared by some of the people in the flats. I mean the first couple of days, we spent a lot of time just trying to cool people down and and stop them panicking and er and stop them going over the top. Erm but then there there came an afternoon where y y there were little sort of crocodiles of of of mums with prams you know, dragging the kids behind, with the prams loaded up with their sort of precious possessions, heading out of the area. And if people had relatives living elsewhere, you know, that's what they did, on this particular afternoon. Erm and it went up that that night. I mean it was it was a very small affair fortunately I think sort of glorifies it too much by giving it giving it the name, riot. But there was a lot lot of damage done to the shops right down the length of Road. And just as bad, even worse, in in terms of personal consequences, all the sort of corner shops in , particularly the the Asian off licences come grocers, were were I mean were were just looted. Not a thing left. Smashed up, looted. And a lot of the shopkeepers didn't have any kind of insurance at all. I mean we had a lot of them are run anyway on credit, there's no real capital lying behind those businesses. And so they lost everything. That was it, those particular shopkeepers er didn't didn't start up business again. So they were finished? They were finished. Yeah. And and apparently even now, if you try and get insurance on Road, for your property, erm unless you're prepared to pay a ridiculously high premium, you you can't get it. It is to the area is still treated differently for insurance terms. To other parts of the city. So that as a direct result of what happened in eighty one? Well that's the only thing I can think of. It was described to to someone who's recently set up a a small restaurant on Road, as being a high risk insurance area. So er it seems seems likely it's a consequence of that. Erm I mean one one fact that emerged after the the riots, when the actual arrest figures were were analyzed, was that the vast majority of people who were arrested at any rate, didn't come from the area. Very very very few came from the local area. And they came either from other parts of the city, or even from as far away as Birmingham. So there w there was certainly some element of people like, you know, organizing themselves to come down to , either intent on creating trouble or erm you know,ju just to see what was happening in . Really not many local people at all involved in it. And you don't smash up your own nest do you. I mean you go and smash up somebody else's . Mhm. So so you're saying that basically it was outsiders who erm Yeah. were involved in that. Yeah. It was. Erm and and you said in the preliminary interview, the fact that there was some people who actually who lived in the flats who said quite am said quite clearly, this is not the time to That's right. It was a very disturbing erm letter that that arrived at some flats, that was from Birmingham. Erm i it was sent to to known known very radical black activists. Erm Mhm. certainly it was assumed that there was some kind of organized network Mm. Right. behind it. But it was it was from the bosses if you like, in Birmingham, saying, Don't get involved in this, this is a small scale skirmish, cos this this is not the time. And er you know, the instruction was, keep your guns in the cupboard for now. Erm and that that was very disturbing, not many people knew about that letter, and certainly it wasn't something that the that the probation staff who saw it, erm told anybody about. Er apart from the police, I think the police were made aware of the letter. Erm a and we you know we kept wondering afterwards, Well when is it gonna be now? Because there there were guns up in the flats. There may still be guns hidden in flats. And touch wood nothing's happened and hopefully nothing will. Mhm. Do you was okay cos you knew there was some heavy heavy organized er guys up there, who who had ammunition and who had had had they felt differently that time, I guess the guns would have come and the police station would have been attacked. Although it was bombed at one stage. You say when did that happen? I can't remember it was it wasn't very dramatic . actually. Who was actually who was actually who was actually involved, was that the an individual or group or I d I really don't know I I really don't know enough about it. I can't A few people were charged with it. I mean it was something fairly minor, a petrol bomb or something like that. Was chucked at the police station. Didn't do a lot of damage. But of course you've now got the modern police station you know. Sort of thing. The cameras on the top. More or less you see them coming a mile off now. Erm No I can't remember enough about it. As I say it w wasn't a very dramatic incident. Mhm. Or it di didn't seem to be received in the area as as being a Mhm. Erm going back to erm to the disturbances that did ta took place in nineteen eighty one. Did they have any lasting impact on people in the flats or w was it quickly forgotten. I think the Sorry. I think before you spoke about the the the fact that erm what happened with the the that was erm. Oh yeah. I think it was Did that have did that have quite an impact in terms of the disturbances? Actually I don't think it did have quite such an impact. Partly because, compared with the national picture, as i say, it was a very very small disruption. And er if you look at what happened in Birmingham, it was nowhere near that sort of scale. And also I think because a lot of publicity erm was given to to the actual arrest figures, and to the fact that they didn't come from the local area. And and that was given higher coverage by the press. So people were sort of you know, exonerated if you like, from their involvement in it. And like it led again, to people I'm sure, people wanting to get out. And led to increased instability in the in in the population in the flats. Erm it led again to questions of of policing, being of paramount importance. And certainly af after the riots, they were always erm couple of days, perhaps longer than that where erm local policemen would be up on the walkways, playing football with the local kids. And they were always very cheerful and waving chatting away. The police and the and the tenants. Erm but that you know that that didn't carry on much more than a few days after the the initial disturbances. Erm there there were quite a few interesting debates that that came up about policing after the riots, I mean initially it was the fact that you didn't see any policemen in the flats at all. Erm after the riots, the debate seemed to get much more complicated. I mean there were there were still quite a lot of tenants who wanted to see police patrolling in twos and threes, through the complex. But there were also a lot of people who felt that the presence of er of police in twos and threes, actually inflamed problems in the flats rather than cooled them down. Er and one had to have sympathy w with the police who who's response was, Well you t you tell us what's the right thing to do. I mean either we're not there or there's too many of us there. Erm fights after after blues parties, certainly seemed to sort themselves out. Erm I mean maybe maybe not to the good of the participants. Er there were a couple of times when the police were called and actually turned up, and and what people believed would have been a minor fight, then developed into a you know a major skirmish. Involving you know just eight or nine people. And it was that kind of debate that that went on the last few years. How do you police erm an area sensitively. Erm the debate still goes on. When they shut the , the the debate sort of shifted to outside the law centre. Funnily enough. Because the was er was a well known hive of erm less than pleasant activities. Heavy drug dealing and and heavy heavy pimping. And there's also the pub where the police, the police always knew they could find who they wanted in the . And if they couldn't find them there they had a number of informers in the . Who would er tell them what they wanted to know. When the was shut, some of the these from the came to the just across the road. Erm and a lot of them, straddled themselves out on the pavement erm in groups of s thirty, forty people along Avenue. And again residents around here, contacting the police, being very concerned about their safety etcetera. At that stage, the police's response was, if we come in, we'll we'll stir it up. So they they didn't they kept to their . It was a very hard judgement to make. Erm the f the first thing er first of two things that we said we'd look at just now were erm the kind of work that you did erm with clients in the flats. The kind of problems that they had. And how . Yes I suppose that perhaps there are two ways of approaching that question. Mhm. The first is to just describe briefly the sort of range of offences committed by people who happen Mhm. to live in the flats. And then, secondly t to just sort of mention the erm perhaps the more traditional ways of of working with people once they've been sent to you by the courts. You know having been labelled Mhm. as an offender. Erm I think I I probably outlined in in the previous interview, erm the range of offences, but but very briefly, it was everything from fairly minor trivial offences, erm prostitution, shoplifting, petty theft. Er through to quite a lot of of violent crime. Er street muggings, through to armed robbery. And also of course a lot of crimes that had their that were basically crimes of domestic violence. Or family disputes, A B Hs, assaults, grievous bodily harm. Erm going right through to a er a murder o on one occasion. So that crime the full range of crime you know,wh was displayed by some people living in the flats. Erm all those I've mentioned before I think the number of of people who were convicted of petty offences, and maybe had never offended af before and didn't offend ever again, was probably quite high. Offence induced by, stress, poverty, Mhm. inability to find a way out of the financial tangle that they were in. Lot of shop lifting was for that reason. A lot of prostitution was for that reason. And some people are very unfortunate and get caught first time. Others do it dozens of time and never get caught, but that's another story. So it was a full range of offences and I mean there isn't a typical way of working with a typical kind of offence. Erm part of the probation officers job if you like, is to hopefully with the cl Come in. Good morning. Hello Doctor. Now stranger, what can we do for you this morning? a long time. A number of years. Aye, it's a long number of years. You've got spots . Mhm . I was told it was chicken pox, but I haven't Mhm. been to a doctor. Aye. I've had this for over a fortnight. Did it just come on all of a sudden? I think what happened it started on my legs, here. Right? Oh deary me . Now for a while, before I went to, I went to . That's turned into . Right. It's okay. we'll get that cleared for you. I thought it was Yeah. like that. No. Four or five days and it should all be starting to I hope it's not turning . A germ, there's a germ that floats about in the air and if it gets onto the skin when it's broken. It Was it? Was it originally . Well it looks as though it could well have been originally chicken pox? like chicken pox. Yeah. But that's all it takes, it's just the skin to get broken, and underneath the skin and it just spreads and it's And you haven't seen my arms. Same. Alright. Okay. My arms are really bad. Let's get that sorted for you. it was chicken pox and I'm saying to myself it's very infectious. What about , is that infectious? Yes. That's contagious as well. And the funny thing was I've Mm. only been off my work for about er seven days. I was at my work for a couple of days, Mhm. when this started. Yeah. So I must have passed it on . Aye. Impetigo isn't nearly as easy to pass on as chicken pox. In fact it's, it's really You have to be living in the same house as somebody who's I was ask asking myself . Aye. You, you've got to be using that same towels, you know, that sort of thing. Aha. You know, actually,mo all more or less direct contact Aha. before you can pick it up. Mhm. So there's no terrible worry in that way, that you've passed on to anybody. And that, I wouldn't worry about that. get that thing? Ah, you could get it anywhere, I mean even, see the likes of that, that wee cut in the back of my hand? Aha. Well it could start off in that. Just just . See I always wondered because er it seemed awfully slow in spreading it, it was there that's right. and a couple of days with nothing happening I'm saying, well, at least it's started clearing up, but then And then it moved somewhere else. it moved somewhere else and I'm saying I'm looking at it That's right. the only place I've not got it is my abdomen and my chest. Right down the front. It had nowhere to go. Aye. And it started on my back quite a bit, three of four days ago, well it's not just as bad but my arms are real bad. Right. Let's see if we can get you turned into a human being. Oh dear, and I'm saying to myself it was chicken pox Aye, but I don't think I've heard of that impetigo Doctor to be honest. Yeah. it's years and . It used to be quite a common thing. Yes. Correct. Aye, I remember. Ah, but it's y you still see it, I mean we still see it about once or twice every week. Mhm. But I mean it used to be every day Aye. we used to see it. So, it all cleared up okay? It won't Yes. Och aye. leave a lot of marks? No? Well, I suppose it . hopefully not. No. No. No. Now not nowadays, not with the, not with the stuff we get nowadays. Now. Now. Now. And what I've noticed is I've seen my bed linen. It's been weeping at night when I'm sleeping. That's right. That's right. In your sleep. That's right. most of this is drying up but the skull must get It seems to Right. weep. That's right. When the skin when we ju move around in the bed, the skin cracks open Oh that's it, it's all cracking here. Aye. Mhm. And the same with the crusty bits Oh aye. , when you move around at night it's the crust cracks open Mm. as well and you get this weepy, sticky Aha. yucky er yellowy green That's correct. Aye. coming out. That's right, isn't it? That's it. That's er here you are young William and that should get rid of that for you no bother at all. Right and er two things, you've got a special stuff for during the day and a different stuff for bedtime. Aha. I is it is it oral? Or what is it er? Tablets. Both of them's tablets? Both tablets. Both tablets to take. Aha. And that'll get rid of that for you. So I can get in ? What about work? An anything. I can go to work? Yeah. I feel a bit, I feel a bit embarrassed . Aye. The only thing about work is are you working with oil? I do work with oil, aye. Ah well, no chance. No chance cos that I'm working on Thursday so I'm Aye. but I work with turbines and it's Aye. No. It's for your own sake, because the o if the oil gets underneath the skin it can irritate your skin. Aha. So you're better er out the way of that for a week ? or so. Yeah. How are you keeping yourself, Doctor? Me? Fine. Oh, good. . Don't have much choice. I would say I've been pretty lucky recently myself . Oh, that's a good way to be. It's a good time to be a stranger in here. a bit guilty, you know? Right. See if we can keep it that way for another twenty years. Aha. Right. Thanks Doctor . Okay. Right. Much obliged. So, what will I gi things right now. give it another week? Give it a week,oh, within the week it should be a big lot better. So that'll be the following . Let's say a week on Monday. Back to work a week Aye. Monday. A week Monday. Great. . Aye. Thanks very much. Okay. Right, Bill. Right? Look after yourself Bye now. now. Bye. Thank you. I just remembered junction thirteen. Fourteen. Right. Oh! I dunno know what to do with this. So you know what you did last year? Nope. I dunno what to do Just stay here. with this. I reckon you should speak to Mr and see where they went. They might cause more trouble than that. Mm. You might be right. Aye. Depends what Actually, we've seen it before but they've got a huge big and it didn't look that big. Mhm. I mean, it's much wider than there. It's like, something like mine, the back end Aye. of the chairs. Er, probably. And it didn't squeak a lot though. Much better isn't it? Well I'd just got it in, and the doorbell went, it was Berty and Joke, Joke had on his uniform and all Mhm. that. Er Joke went to Berty, and he says well you better tell her, you've arranged it all! What's wrong? What is it? He says, well he'll tell you, you know. Well what is it then? And er he says well Berty's arranged for a van to sa to get this suite. So I says when? When? He says, as soon as possible. I said, well how soon's that? And I thought, oh gee! She says half five? Jesus Christ! This is only what, ten to five. God! Doesn't leave me with much time. So er says right, I'll see you later, and just as we'd gone away Joke got back out the car er, and she says don't worry about the money. And I said, I've got it there. And er, she said I didnae worry you and er he turned round and just leave it there, so I think it he's coming to get it Saturday. So that Yeah. settles that. Yeah. It was er Dave 's brother, oh er Andy . Mhm. His brother. It's was about quarter past eight when he comes in. Berty just got here. Mhm. Well if he's done the building then, yeah. Carole's got it. Cos she's got this and exchange it. Aye. Cos she's got a hundred pound That's right. that's why she's swapping. My er, cos I don't Aha. It was actually alright apart from the cushions on the couch. Aye. They were very well that Worn. one's . Cos they're the same, it's, you know, roughly the same. Does she want Yeah. So the I'm talking about having the bloody money to do this, you know. Yeah. So when they brought the seat back it was about quarter quarter to six I think. I think they got all in including the settee I think. Mhm. And I offered them a fiver to pay o for the van but they didn't take it. It was very nice, very . But you have to take it Do you want a cup of coffee. I didn't even eat tea nothing because by the time hoovered and they were away. Mhm. Then they went away about six. And er Kelly saw the ra Neighbours. So I put the dinner on just after Neighbours finished, I thought they'd go. They did eventually go out of the house but he was about done and then he comes in five to seven. last night? Aye, he would be. Oh. Cos he come Aha. straight to bed with a Lemsip. Well, Morris didn't come in last night, but her car was there Mhm. till very, very late. Erm, and I spoke to her in, in Tina's car and she was caught out. Oh. Kelly didn't make them quarter to ten comes in. It was late though. Quite hoarse though. Ste Steven I mean. But he didnae tell me that he, he has telled me in a way. Aye. I just want to know what why Is Ben, is why, why he done that, you know. But he said that Alec denied it, whatever it was. But Margaret told me well it was years ago up at the Germany , says his wife left him. Mm. He went up, and it's first time he'd seen her for a while and she said something about, oh he was supposed to have something but he got to hear this well it's got nothing to do with all the others. Cos Alec said something to me about Maggie. I says, well what? Ah, I don't understand it because Margaret, Alec got on well with Margaret. Maybe they both knew that is, I don't know. See Margaret was going to be, be erm what d'ya call it? Like what I had. Mhm. He was married at the time but he wasnae . Mhm. He had a flat over I think it was. And he came, Alec thought she was a bit abrupt like, but she was alright. Didnae offend, and didnae offend me. Was that, are they ma are they married? Yeah. Aye they, they didn't know. Mhm. But I mean they phoned and that so, he cannae have been Aha. well you probably find it's Well she never got in contact with me again. And meeting her again, she was married. Mhm. He told erm I think it was Berty that tell Alec. Or Berty telled somebody and it Mhm. looks really anyway, eventually. I think they're going to move down south. I think it was Kerry that tell us. Black Kerry? And er Margaret never got her money back from er, for . Ah, but you never found it was Berty's son that co you know what he's like. Exactly. It's, Margaret probably said that. Well that's what Lucy said, that it wouldnae lasted too long, I mean, it was over a year. But er Berty said it would have only lasted a couple of weeks, cos Alec won't talk. But it was Berty getting stuck on the it did go on for so long. Mhm. You probably find he said something to her. Anyway, and I weren't gonna say that to him. He says to her aye, he says, I could tell you a few things about Fiona that'll make your hair curl. I says, I bet you couldn't. He says, I bet you I could. I said, don't talk . And er this was him trying to get off the subject when he was getting a bit nervous I think. Well you better get ready. Go for a bath. You just go like this. This. Oh you mean if you,, I says I was getting that for years Berty. He was really taken aback cos he says to me, you didn't tell anybody, then you Joe. Well kind, what kind did she say? I think she's getting worse! But he thought this is a big surprise then. Especially when he was trying to get off with her. Aye. Aye, that's . It's nice to let us know. Ah. You get us used to it. What are you gonna do, go and tell them? Give him a this afternoon. Er tell him then. Twenty. I'll charge six from silver. Mhm. Six, six, seven Twenty. I saw Steph today. I haven't a, I haven't got a clue what to get her. See . Well not bad, not a bad idea sometimes I know. is it? Better that than buying summat for Well either all I could is, I'll get Tracy summat to wear and you got time, and she picks like a blouse, she'd pay a hundred pound for one. Oh right. She wastes her money all the time on clothes. She has to go to Next, nowhere else. Or Wallis's at a push. I think and I keep thinking well I'm not going in there buying her anything. I was just looking at some of the prices they want for the property. It's ridiculous! Yeah. For a leasehold just the offers over eighty five thousand. Did you read that one? No contact. Right. What's that,terms? The job. Next week. Aye. Unless there's hotel a desk . . Right. Can I have your second name please ? Pick it up Yep. Hello dear. Right. Mhm. Mhm. Yeah. Yep. How are you for er, do you want one of everything? Right then. Mhm. Right. Yeah. Eighteen . Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Right. Right then Anne. No juice? No juice? Right then Anne. Right. Bye . There you are. Thank you. And can you can you book me that for That's the name,. What's Monday's date? The third? Third. Yeah. Suggested there's been a hundred and fifty grand allocated to the factory for er foundations and extension. And they suggested it? Yeah? I'm not sure wha Mhm. over, over what's the time period. I mean that if it's over like two years make quite a difference though. Yeah. Well they said that it is going to cost about seventy five to get the kitchen done. Mhm. And the outside with er they say say a hundred thousand tops for er including getting a a kiosk made up to a a food bar. Yeah. But then again, it depends if till they build an extension out in the back, it'll cost a fortune. Er Are you getting all this up to scratch for ninety three? I would imagine so, yeah. Mm mm. Cos after that they'll be fitting their own here. They're getting the region to do that. Yeah. Er well it's only what I've heard it's See how it goes. Aye it's not it's not on paper yet. Mm. Jim came this morning. What's that? Er Jim the joiner. Aha. The girls were wanting something done, partitioned off up the back or something for the draught coming under Yeah. Yeah. the communal Yeah. We never had one of the proper forms so he's coming back later with forms with us you see. Yeah. He's gotta come back in the morning but he never said that. Have you finished, totalled up the rolling? I, I ha I haven't done it yet. No. Right. I'll do it. I thought I'd give you it. I have the shifts to do over here. A I was doing my er Yeah. the sheets and all stuff like that. I'll draw up that sheet for er they'll probably start Monday the twelfth. The Coke machine's out of Coke. Right. So yo er I'll fill out a, I'll take about six case up. I think it's about four cases to go up four or five cases. Did you have them that big ? Yeah. You did? Yeah. Aye. Yeah, I was watching it. That's it. Wait till you see them done. And hear about all the ? Yeah. Yep. And make the both the coffees and chocolate size and er Just filled them up this morning. It must be the way you're doing the machine. Tuesday. I'll, I'll write it down and put a sticker up on the wall. I've got the dentist at half past four . So I dinnae forget. You know how you said you'd work Tuesday Oh right. Yeah. for me, so, I've arranged to go back to the dentist then. Had to phone them last night. I meant to phone them on Wednesday when I got in. Yes and Billy comes in on a Tuesday. Yes. I was telling Steven, he says it's about time some of them's done well. Cos he's gotta end up getting I wonder Well it's what it'll be like? it's for her good The night after that. and it's Yeah. and it's also for er everyone else's is good. Mhm. Cos It's not that, but, every time he came he came near us George was saying coming out with an excuse, er that's a phone for you. Erm Yeah. accounts is on the phone. You know, and he and you're hiding. That's the thing, the thing is like, and like er, he's Billy's been given a lot of scope though, erm, to just go out and do his own thing and he thinks like a, as a, I was speaking to like his er course tutor and it is erm Councillor and Katie was saying that Billy thinks that because he's got, he's got this, this wee job now that like, he's er he's the street cred you know, he's cool. Mhm. But he's not. Erm and he seems to think that er er, because he's got this freedom and he's got this street cred that like er,wo women will just fall over him. And go out and spend his money . Well that's it, you know Mm. so erm er th the thought, the thought did occur to me that perhaps one of these times he's gonna actually go beyond just like talking, and perhaps touching somebody. Mhm. Erm which is, a definite no-no. Cos I mean, he's starting to make a beeline for Carol now and she's getting the creeps about it. Well, that's er, that's why Mhm. it's being knocked on the head now. Before he gets any serious And er, er Fiona one of his tutors upstairs, she's like er, the floor manager as well, yeah? Mhm. mentioned get some of the staff . Right. So he'll probably get I think he, he goes to the class first, then come, and he comes downstairs. So as soon as he gets told he'll be He'll be straight down. He'll be straight down. Mm. Expecting to see you. Mhm. So He'll get a shock! It's not that though, er, I mean I've worked with a mental handicap and, it gets to the stage whe like you say though I'm not just touching you, I'm just And the strength they've got, you're their strength. Aye. Well since he got the er, male nurse sat . Mhm. He's been, said that to his wife there touching you up at his side. Aye. I mean it's a shame somebody's getting sacked because of him. Well I mean I, apparently he'd been giving this, this guy stick like all day. And you can only take so much. And eventually rap rapped his face and called him a effing person like, you know, it's Mm. and this guy got him by the throat and pinned him to the wall and said Billy shut up! Or you'll be seen by an auxiliary? Mhm. And Billy complained and and said yeah I saw it. The guy was sacked. So after that he got a bit cocky. Erm I mean there's times I could just take Billy and just but then you have to think, no. Yeah. Can't be done. Calm down. That's right. I thought Billy we wa would have been in by now. What's that? I thought the work would have been here. What is this? Right. Can I have some cash? What? What er Sandy what happened about the hot sweets today was the su I had six customers all came in, they all saw the strudel and they said, oh, we'll have strudel. Chris said, she said well she didnae mind going down for it. So every one that I brought up was sold. Aye. Tell them, it's just the way it is, that was how things have gone. Yeah, no I meant this hot sweet er, erm erm there's one or two that's saying that er er every five or ten minutes, I thought well No, no. No. you're gonna have doing it instead No, I only got, because I knew he was coming back up Yeah. wi more food, so I Aha. asked him if he'd bring up six sweets, I never bothered him before. Yeah, that's er, certainly Michael. Hope hopefully ah, er these guys are getting Alright. puds today. But A apparently they were in the college yesterday but they er couldn't find , went away again. It's their problem. What happened, what happened with the sweets then? Oh it's stupid! What? Well there was six customers wanting, all wanting , right fine, I'm not getting it Yeah. and I explained to them that it really wouldnae be piping hot , and then John came up with stuff and the custard Mhm. and cos he paid him twice for that, their sweets, and John was coming up , so, I don't know if it was genuine,asked him and I cos I knew John was coming up Aye. and I knew I had orders for them all, Katriane. Mhm. with them. And so she come in and that . No, I can see it's alright, it's alright. And er Cos that was only just ten minutes going back. I thought erm, oh well cos like, I explained yesterday there was no way we could have them because of there was only the pair. This is stupid! Mm. And I thought, you know,. Yeah. So there's you see? sixty pence, and six, and it's three pound sixty. And they're all ordered, they're all for different people cos John is coming up with sweets. Mm. That's what I said to him . He's just touchy with everyone. I mean, the thing is Katriane, it wasnae putting him out! And it wasn't putting anybody else out! But it was absolutely . Oh well, John John . Mhm. He says, I'm not just running round for six hot sweets! And I mean Mm. like that, touchy. Oh! He had bad news and he, he wanted to talk to you about it at twelve o'clock. But you know, working with Aye. I know. I know. But I thought, after all, I'm gonna like that at all. No. To her, I'm not gonna get called out the back No. especially when I had customers standing. Aye. That's right. He sent his upstairs and he talked through that intercom to me, I says put your, you didnae press the button! Like that, I was shouting him. And he keeps pressing it and you , cannae hear him. That's it. Because you get, all you do is, is press that button up there and let it go and you can talk. Aye. It's that you've got to put on, so Aye. you hear Aye. or talk. To talk you press it in. But upstairs he presses it in as well, and I, I'm not hearing Aye. it's muffled. Aye. And he sa and he said to me one day, are you fucking deaf! And I heard it. I says, I haven't got any, and he came down here and I said to him, I'll give you fucking deaf alright! I said, when you press that button upstairs it muffles it and there's nothing you can do. Oh right! I didn't realize that. I said, well fine. But lucky I've said. I know. I thought, if you shout that I'm fucking deaf again I'm going to bash you! Ignore him. I just ignore his sentiments, that's what I do. Ah. I don't really throw I know. The only thing I've do I thought, oh no, I know when, I've no do I feel I've no done anything wrong. I know. And it seems that if I go Steve, right, bring me up a dozen sweets and I haven't selled one of them well that would be enough. Aye. Well that's , but not when I've just sold six. Right! Ooh! Aha. Ah!my leg. I'll put them in the file. That's it. Cos they've been building up like that and they're bound to fall down. Do you want them to do a menu rotation or keep making them up every week? Like do a twelve week menu cycle? I've tried that. All it does is . But wha what we've go gotta watch out for is like er there's plenty there though, and like Mhm. always like, quite when they re repeat the same thing the week after. Mhm. So it's ham and mushroom by chicken and ham? I bet she does it. Er, what's the soup today? Er spring veg. Has it got meat stock in it? No, veg. I'll probably just have some soup . Erm it's there's some things we we're okay to do . Mhm. Or a , you see the same every week. Er But if we get them to sit down and actually do the cycle you know, so they do it Yeah. theirself. I've found that in the past Ah. erm I think we were working on a six week cycle Mhm. the last time. Cos it seems to be,th do, going okay just now. I mean Mhm. erm a couple of days they seem to have two big sellers on as well and then one, one day Yeah. there's you're not so, not a good seller on any of the food. Well spaghetti bolognaise and Mhm. chilli, has, has, has never really been er, big sellers A big seller. here. Course then I mean, you don't have chilli, you can Mhm. if, if you try and do enchiladas or Mhm. erm Tacos? tacos. I mean we we, we've got taco shells, but I find that the taco shells have kinda got a wee funny taste to them. Mm mm. Erm That's the cheap ones though. Yeah. Heavily shred your lettuce and you've got tomato on as well, and it's and cheese or whatever you Mm. want. If I was the one doing chilli Yes. God! I'm not gonna eat all that! Ah you will, you will, done it before. I've got to use a knife. We'll see in a minute. Mhm. Come in come in come in. There you are now young man. Hope you cos I can't hear with that ear now. It's . Er the There we are .. Pardon? This one's still bad. . Well let's get you away. quite nice. Now we're slap this round about. That's fine. Er that's just No just slightly round there . That's it, just like that. Beauty. Mm. No wonder I couldn't hear. No wonder you couldn't hear. Yeah, that looks okay now. Right that'll be alright Bill. Just get a wee look in, just check the inside. Magic. Magic, clean as a whistle. Bill, there there'll be a tiny wee spot of water down at the bottom here Bill that'll maybe take today just to dissolve away. Mm. That's And now just You remember what you used to do when you come out the baths? Aye yes. Do that. Swimming yeah. Aye. I can hear now. There we are. Give yourself a dry off with this. Right you are thank you . Okay? Right you are. And j Have you any of the drops left Bill? Yes. Well keep them in the house, and maybe once in a while, sort of once every two months, just put a couple of drops in maybe Saturday night or Sunday night. You know, just to keep it loose, keep it from getting clogged up again. Right you are. Right. Thank you. not his hair, not other things about him, obvious things about him. His colour. What colour was he? Erm white. Good lad. He was white. Obvious things about him again that you might forget, obvious things. He had a moustache. He had a moustache, yes, but I'm talking about really obvious things that we might forget. Policemen would remember but you might forget, obvious thing he was white Slim. Good girl. He was slim. And we have done this before haven't we? Yeah he was slim, what else was he? Was he right at the back. Quite tall. He was quite tall. Obvious things about him you forget, right? He was white slim and quite tall, yeah? Then you can give him the clothes, right I want the clothes. Erm dark no light brown leather jacket. Light brown leather jacket, we'll see in a minute on the video He had black jeans on and white Cords. shoes. Black jeans and white cords, we'll see if you're right, it's gonna be on in a minute. Black shades. Black shades, when do you mean black shades, like mirror shades yeah? Yeah. Right, well done. Erm he was in his thirties. He was in his thirties, I would put him in his early thirties, yeah, I'd say he was younger than me. Yeah He had brown hair. He had brown, see if you're right in a minute. See if you're right. He had a moustache. He had a moustache, yes. He had a blue car and He had a blue car, stop it there, I'll stop it there, he had a blue car. What is important about the car? You've gotta remember. Oh ! Yeah, what have you got to remember about the car? Registration. Good girl, the registration number, yeah we had before once or twice. Right all hands down and no guesses, no guesses, what was the number? Oh! Oh! No guesses, what was the number? There you go my man. M J B three six seven X. Is he right or is he wrong? Right. Who says he's right? Who says he's wrong? Top of the class, well done. M J B three six seven X. Cos I've caught you out on that before, yeah. What else do you remember about the man? He had a deep voice. He had a deep voice, yeah. I think we've got all of it haven't we? But the important points, what? His shoes were like plimsoll . His shoes were like plimsolls, fair enough, yeah, we'll But the impoi important things to remember, if you can, was his car his number plate, yeah? He was white he was slim and he was a tall man. Yeah? Very important. Okay you may not have ever seen him, he may just have been sitting in the car, then remember his colour maybe his moustache and then the type of car he had. Can anyone, top of the class, what kind of car was it? Oh! Shh shh shh. What type of car was it? Volkswagen. Volkswagen what? Polo? No, you're guessing. It was a hatchback. It was a hatchback. You're gonna see it again No it's not it's the other one innit? It was blue. Blue, yes, blue. If you didn't see it, it's a tricky one but there's a good way, we've brought up a good point as well, if we look at the car when the car comes up, who said Polo? Cos it's not a Polo, it's a Jetta, it's the one with the boot but if you can't remember what it is you can either, did you know the difference between a car with a boot and a car with a hatchback? Do you know the difference? Do you know the difference? If you don't say, say you don't know the difference and I'll explain. I don't. You don't? A hatchback is where all the back comes up here like a Fiesta yeah? And where a boot is where only the booty bit comes out the, the, the glass window doesn't come up as well. Understand that? Yeah? Yeah. A hatchback is where it all comes up and it all swings up, the whole back swings up doesn't it? What's that, like a Ford Fiesta? A little, little Peugeot A Sierra. No, a Sierra, a Sierra the whole lot comes up, yes, but they've now changed to a Sapphire and the Sapphire is just the boot, yeah? So you can explain, if you don't remember the car remember if it was a hatchback or a boot. It comes in handy,know a blue car and I think it has a boot, I can't tell you the type of, don't make it up, if you don't kn know, don't make it up. White, slim, early thirties, very tall man, yeah? Very. Would you have said he was slim or very slim? Slim. I thought he was very slim actually. I'll go with you, I'd say he was very slim, he was a very slim man. Thank you No it's not being horrible to anyone, skinny wasn't he? Yeah? . We'll see how well we got on and how we didn't. See what we've got. Whitey type trainers, plimsolls, yeah that's close enough innit? Who said black trousers? Are they black? No, grey. Grey you could say they were dark, if you didn't know for definite you could say they were dark trousers. If you don't know don't make it up, don't guess. Who said moustache? Well done. yeah? The glasses, well done. Whitey type, I don't know what they are casual shoes. M J B three six seven X, well done. It's a Jetta, a V W Jetta. Right, when you start your holiday been coming here now years and years and years and every year I show you that video, you know that video off by heart, you should do so when you play, play safe, that's all I'm saying, play safe. Enjoy yourself but play safe. If someone approaches you and you don't know them, someone you don't know is a stranger. Did you see how nice the man was when he started to talk to Jason oh I'll go and help you how friendly he was he was conning him, he was tricking. Just remember play safe, someone you don't know is a stranger, yeah? Now I've frightened you, all have a nice holiday, but play safe. Yeah? Will you do that for me? Yeah. Good stuff. I'll see you later. Take care. Thank you. You're getting too good, I've gotta che Regur regurgitate-arianism you watch. Can't find it. . They're probably looked out or something the key. Well. Hello, hiya,. Don't do phone calls. made your . International Longmans Dictionary. Really got a thing really. Have any? I think actually ask them. Oh, I see. Oh we've been . What with the mileage. Yeah. Yes. Right. Mm. Oh. Yeah that, that's where you . Mm. gonna ring then cos I'm, I'm not staying like this. Oh alright then,. Oh sorry . What? That tiggles. Tiggles? Yeah,what else . Tickles, not tiggles. It's C, K. Alright. Not G, tickles. Yeah, it's very flash then . Yeah.. What? Have a nice three piece suite for you. Take it Not Lucky oh,. Sean Connery? That on there, see? Mhm. Good. Come through . That's disgusting. Why? Right . Yeah it'll have to be count. It's out of order. Yeah, I know. Get on to. I'm gonna grow erm, because I could Yeah, she's got eyes like , she . Did she? Woman. I . It's covered. I meant cut the erm,. So I've given you five . Think you can alright? Yeah. Yeah I'll get around to it. Darling. I will, honest You . I . Hi Eric. Yeah. Nor for the fun of like. I have . Mm. Right. What is it I . It's dark and . No. It . chance to see him in . Erm, actually he's darker than , it's yellow. Mm. . It's yellow. No, it's me doing that not someone else. What? Nothing . Oh. Sorry eh. What? . I'm not gonna shave that for three weeks. That'll look nice. No that, that is right really threatening. Yes. Think you're hard? oh my god. Well hard. That was well funny last time, you see me in a room, we're playing er games. I, I say a word Yeah. and, and you, you have to say another word that sounds like it. Yeah. And eh, like I, if I say loverks Mm. You say bloverks, souverks,. proper words . No you, we're doing it, well this a large. Mm. Mm,can't imagine this . You has to come down . It's really funny , oh. When we were in the room it smelled , cos Si, Dave, Jolly . Mm. , Colin, someone else, Johnny . There's her poxy car keys. Is he alright there? Yeah . Right I've taken her out to lunch. Yes, right. What's that ? Dunno. I tried to get one yesterday,. Eh? I chance to. Where'd you try? Down the road I think. Sainsbury's. You might I didn't think you'll mind having scrambled eggs with toast anyway. Lovey dovey,. You get more eggs this way, you get two eggs this way. , preferred the other way. Not that . Yeah, but you're only giving us the . If you always feel hungry what is the point? What diet? She's lost two and a half stone within about two or three months. Ha, what diet's she on? Yeah, she works on this special diet plan,special diet and what have you. I said well how do you manage to keep the weight off? Well she said I've done a bit. Why no I've never seen you two She is , she is jealous at having a dig at her. No, no, I won't, I'm, I'm Pretty cold. If, if she had believed the aim to keep it off, I would've been jealous, but she, she's not going to find it easy to keep her weight, she's out here when she's put back on pound. She's tried. What says you're . Yeah so am I. Pardon? So am I what I've left off. Well I don't know . It's all that work you do, cut the lawn. And . Right that's all . That one is . here we go. It's . I'm . No, I don't. It'll . They're horrible things. hill only in first gear. I think it's hard work innit? Going , more power, need a push behind, get up that bloody hill. Change gears . , pay four, five, two hundred quid I think, cor bloody hell. Grass . That's what we were saying, well why does everybody buy to then? Exactly, latest craze. Course it is, how do you buy, why do you buy a bike with no mudguards for? Said to Bert that got to be a right dopey dick to ride a bike with no mudguards on. Wouldn't say he had to buy a pair , track bike, he's make their own up. He said I on the back at least. Mm. Still there you are,glad somebody making some profit, just shows what we do buy, don't we? I tell you I couldn't get going at all not . I could beat you. He could. Andy. I thought, I thought there were gonna be a good ride, but . Like Andrew's . He probably got the rough one. Like Andrew . Yeah, that was, that was similar sort of ride hard bloody work. Yeah. All right up round here ideal, up and down the bumps over the guard, but when you get it out on the road, very hard work, similar sort of ride, well I suppose it will be, run around the you've gotta push around Alright if you're double fit I suppose, and you've got a bit more help to around. Yes. I only took three quarters of an hour to get there. It took about just over half an hour to get back. How's that for straight down Lane, straight over lights up hill, along the top here. Well it's still not bad at . cold last night,, far old long trot down from hill,innit? The Bells, it's all down hill until you hit all down hill. Yeah . nice and , nice, but even then they couldn't really . Well I want something in between, like the old sports , straight down the bike job. Well is he gonna ride on one man's ? Mind probably more comfortable than the base weren't they? I got used to them. I, yeah, I drove up, up there and back, like, my leg don't ache, they ached a bit at a time, but that, you know that bone you get, each side of your keep your thumb there, you've got that bone, underneath there's a bone there, you might, or the bottom bone that you'll sit on, you know when you sit still you get that bone. Tail bone. No, the bottom here, you've got two, you've got two, just in there, in there you got the bones. Pelvis. Might be the bottom of your pelvis, in there. Yeah. Bloody hurt it bruises, you sit on it and it doesn't, I thought I might, I suppose after a while you'll get blisters but it's bruised, when you sit on the bloody thing. And they sit To get a softer saddle you might get other problems. You might get other problems. You get sore bones sitting down on anything. Oh can do, yeah, yeah, yeah. Especially for me. Yeah, oh crikey, yeah. They all ride back. I thought we're gonna so we came out of Paul's place, behind Belmont Parade, up past the ponds there and that's and I'm knackered, I'm going up river, had no you start at the bottom of Belmont Parade, up those ponds up to the traffic lights where you change buses, that's all up hill and it's slow, and you've just started and you're not warm and it's like running out of here, running up that hill there, now you could run up that hill if you got, if you had sort of round a couple of times round nice , no one so more ready to go, you'd run up there, you come out of here, run down here, not warm, feel you get, well I come out of there and , and you get, you go up past that set of traffic lights, you go up and you're still struggling past The Bull, that's still up hill, you get to the, just round that bend and it starts dropping down, and it's a gradual drop down, below the roundabout and the next roundabout's pretty level there, not too bad a roundabout, right the way across to Scades Hill, went down Scades Hill, right the way down to Alton, bottom of Alton high street, came out by the toilets at White Hart to High Street, up to house. Mhm. That's a bit of a drag. Yeah. That's a bit of a long drag that one, not that Paul take open up a bit there and go a bit faster, level, but that was a bit Well's done a left up to Chell's Field and that, bloody that killed him, I bet, you know the bit I mean, and up over the fields, where you go through the fields and fields, that was the killer, cos and coming back Bell's straight round to , got to the bottom,Hill wasn't too bad. It's a short, sharp, you can see it there, you get to the top of it, get up to your roundabout, we hang a right, and the next, it's a bit of a drag all the way up, you save coming, coming the other way it's down hill, from just past The Bull, until you get to the , almost to that junction you turn off the top and you're going up hill, just slowly, but cor, you get up to that, our junction, she drops down, we went straight down through the High Street, and we hung a right in the one way system, turn left, didn't get, quite get to Green Lane, turn left and up we come round the Green Lane, up and in the back way. Mm. I say, it took us three quarters of an hour to get there, three quarters of an hour to get there, just over the half an hour getting back. Mind you got short that was a killer up round by place. I reckon we got down from The Bells, Chell's Field, to the bottom of , six, seven minutes. Might be a bit more than that, but erm, could of been nine. She said wouldn't get up hill How these blokes go I don't know,aren't they? Mm Mind you, it's the bloke in the front keeps don't he? Keep tucked in behind the side always said to you, the bloke in the front, mate, he does all the donkey work, picking up drags you round don't it? Whether he punches hole in the wind, in the air or not I dunno, like cards. Yeah. He does seem eager, up behind some, long as you get a right distance, too far and you get oh, they're fighting it again, whereas you can get right up. We were thinking of the car, a slower car, could overtake a by getting up behind you, and when you coming out, as soon as he comes out Yeah. he's got to go back again. That's what I thought. But they don't, do they? You get, or you get two cars of equal speed, along straight Well it's a memento innit? one get, yeah, one gets up behind it and can in the back I suppose, but they go after they, and then, you think as soon as you pull out, you're gonna get all that, yeah, he's gonna get all that, but they don't do they? They don't . Gotta be a reason for that I suppose. Cos they're going flat out when they're like that, it's not like you gonna say like, when you go on a , like overtake mode, when you're like that, they are flat out down the straight, all you go to get a out. Mm. It's not like He goes Yes, it's not like he's going, he's, he's going faster than this geezer, he's not, he's getting a drag from him, then all of a sudden he comes out and he goes faster you think,explain a little bit more on the old . I really don't know. same lines, but, he know he , you assume that as soon as you got outside him, that bloody draft would come round and push him back and the other bloke would carry on. Yeah. We might have a bit of a winner tonight. Mm,pretty quick aren't they? They're first and second . Yep. tend to blow up do they? Mansell tends to break him don't he? Yep. The other bloke tends to run out of road a bit don't he? Aye we Bit erratic innit? Yeah, he's not a real charger is he? No. The only thing that I will do, that he might do, he might keep, cos once gets away mate that's he might keep him behind. Mm. Yeah,not used to driving behind is he? No. He's always had to keep that bloody thing . Yeah. Ferrari or something. Yeah . How comes you only stayed at the Curry House? Ha, ha, no I never . Ha? No I'm actually . Fucking hell. Did you have money? About a fiver. money, so I ponce off him, you know, was well got a free curry a free beer. I must say, is the heavy way . Yeah where were we doing that? Way down to a . Yes, well that. Where do you lot got with last night, pissed off.. It's not, it's people don't understand or something.. Y M C A whatever. Y M C A . Makes me Oh fucking hell. goes erm, oh sort of. Best part of breaking up, you making up, best part of breaking up Breaking up, you , best part of breaking up Breaking up, you , news on waking up And you used to funky little reggae,oh my god singing. Singing Singing They all, even all the girls that were screaming like yeah Yeah. Yeah. Getting . They're bloody . Right, anybody else? There should be a timetable at sometime. Yeah there is. Eh do. Already, Thursday. It's what this Thursday? Next Thursday. Alright . If it's, if it's the first Thursday. Eh, right if you've got one of the the two plus three , have we, have we all got these, yeah? Yeah, have we got these? These complex questions. The one where that one number eight and it's, it's got that complex number, that's the one we looked at just before the end of half term, yeah. Where you got number, so what you do is you multiply by the complex conjugate, top and bottom, if we do that, it comes out, out of multiple of one . I think it's a is it? Yeah it is. Oh. Oh it is. Yeah, half. It's a half, now if it's a half of that. And then the second says show that that complex numbered to the power of four where that complex number is that complex number, so all you do is that four, that and then you get minus a corner. Yes, so that's the answers. So the two answers are land and the answer is minus a quarter, I'll pin that one on the board. Right, the second one now I'm gonna do, is the one that's equals three plus four , yeah, and you have gotta write down in the form P plus Q I so it's the real bit plus the imaginary bit, one over Z. One over Z is one over three plus four I's, I think we'll do that. How do we go to the the form, a number plus times it by the convex conjugate, is sub three minus four I, three minus four I, and what we get is three minus four I, over twenty five, eh, that sound reasonable to three twenty fifths, minus four twenty fifths high and that's Q, I, and one over Z square or the second bit, several ways to do this, what you can do is work out what the square is first, so if I do a little aside Z square, it's three plus four I square, which is nine plus three forty five, twenty four I, plus sixteen I square, which is twenty four I, divide seven, who's that , so one over Z square is one over, minus seven plus twenty four I. Multiply by the complex you get again, and work the Z square that's pretty hard to multiply M, I, square minus one, do that by changing the imaginary , and multiply by, then you get an answer . You could square that, you could square that complex number, right, if that's, because one over Z is square one over Z, one over squared, Yeah, problems, cos . once you've got one over Z squared, if I work it out, you get minus seven, minus twenty four I over, ten sevens erm oh, so you get forty nine on the bottom is that? No, no, not forty nine. That's not forty nine, it's erm, that's twenty four , which is seven, twenty four, twenty five, twenty six, six hundred and twenty five. What's that? So we get minus seven of six, two, five, minus twenty four I, over six, two, five. Right that's the, the complex number one over Z square, that's the answer. Right, you're, you're happy about how I got that? Yes. Yes. Yes. a bit louder,, a just, seven square, minus seven , minus seven, gives me plus forty nine yeah? Yeah. The minus, seven times that, we could be plus something, and an seven times that one would give you minus pass onto that, then twenty four times twenty four is five hundred and seventy six, I square, for it's minus I square, minus formula cos then when I add to add I get six hundred and twenty five , it's just, it's one, you know like the three, four, five, triangle, in Pythagoras, yeah, you know, when you get three, four, five, and you can make them three squared, four squared, so is five squared, right, well, seven, twenty four, twenty five, is another one of those, right that's how I knew seven, twenty four, I knew is six hundred and twenty five , that's how I, that's how I knew it's . Anyway we get these complex done, and you can check that, and that fits the , right, and then the second part of the question t is find the argument Well the argument, remember what the argument is? It's time by the minus one, which bit's on top? The imaginary bit's on top, so I've got twenty four over six, two, five, divide by seven to go over six, two, five. Eh, have you got fractions like that? Something over six hundred and twenty five, divided by something over six hundred and twenty five, now that is exactly the same as just a twenty four over seven, cos the six twenty five will cancel out. If I do twenty four divide by seven inverse time, I'll get an . Well, now, what's the anybody got a calculator with them? Twenty four divide by seven, inverse time, got a . Well what sort it out. Twenty four, divide by seven, it's three point six,, I mean it's definitely of degrees. , one point nine degrees. So we get the one point nine degrees, now, we've got to interpret that now. Now, you remember the really big puzzle on there, the imaginary bit goes there, and minus seven of something along the route bit and minus twenty four of them , so I'm going minus seven six hundred and twenty fifths there, minus twenty four, seven, so the actual lines go like that, so the one point nine at that angle, so the actual is going to be which is two sixty one point nine . Right then, let's, that's what we was doing. Now if, well, certainly there's a lot more complicated things in complex numbers, you should, all you really done, is to, this thing about the complex you get them work out some algebra, you go out and Z square some algebra and then you've done the complex with some algebra and with the use of plus and minus signs in there, it's a little bit tricky, but nothing, that, that, at A level that you shouldn't be able to handle, right, and once you've got that you look for some new , just, working and the least, and deciding what happened when you've actually got . That really, I mean that's six marks on the yellow paper, at that level that's really six per cent, but really it's all , that, that's, that, looking at that, that is one of the easier questions I would deal out, very easy. That's definitely one of the easier questions I would deal out. No,, all the complex numbers that you get on that, on that maths , are in similar, you should be able to do them, that is one of the key questions If you think this is hard, wait until we go through , go through , representing back to equations. Yeah. No worries. Yeah. You'll probably be able to that. yeah probably. Is the, the difficult stuff ? Right next question is the one where you're given these two complex numbers, and you're asked to show the, the modules of Z one squared is two times the modules of Z two squared. So all it is, is, says, sure that that's that, so what I'm gonna do is say the modules of Z one is the square root of five squared plus one squared, so if I want the modules of Z one squared then all I've got is five squared plus one squared, cos when I've squared it, it gets rid of the square root, which is, don't you think,. No, so, Z two is the square root of two squared plus three squared so I want Z two square, is two square plus three square, different in square root, so the two times is two times, well two square is four plus that,, that is that . Right next one, which is find the argument of Z one times Z two Yeah, again a couple of different ways of doing it, what you can do is you find the argument of Z one, find the argument of Z two, and then what, what will we do for the answers, add them together to get the to,arguments to something worth together, we add them, or we can work out Z one times Z two and then just find a modulist of that complex number, now which way do you want to do it? First way. Go on, it's up to you. Go on. John said one . working out a modules you have to find the Sorry did that one, I've got to accept it, right, find the , find find the , is up that way somewhere, that's fine, that's one, argument of that is, four over five inverse time. one divided by five, inverse time Three, eight, one, seven. Seventy eh. forty five degrees. One divided by five, have you ever put , one divided by five? Must be less than one five.. Yeah, we're waiting for a . Good, Z two is minus two plus three,minus two plus three I . So that's two, that's three, so three , one forty five inverse time what'll we get? One point five inverse time, fifty six point three is in there, so the answer we want is minus two, one, three one, two, three,, seven, so add that to and I hear one, two, four,. So that's R Z, one Z two, that's two R's together and then, what I calculate the side B, the square root of sixty minus thirty I, eh this about the hardest figure that I can do in complex numbers, the square root of sixteen, minus thirty I. Must n't , sixteen minus thirty I, but we want the square root of that, to begin plus D times . Oops then if I square both sides of that equation, then sixteen, minus thirty nine equals the A plus B, I, square, yeah, that's just the square on both sides, so sixteen minus thirty nine equals square this out under A squared, plus two give me , plus three squared, I squared. Yeah, that's just algebra, that's just what planners they've got. If I were back at the A squared, I squared is minus one, so I've got minus three squared, there's two give me by I Equals minus thirty nine, now because those two complex numbers are the same are the same, so sixteen is E S squared minus three square, the imaginary grids are also the same, so minus thirty equals two, eight B. Don't really imaginary grid on this side,imaginary grid on that side, from which, if I second one, you can see A, that A equals minus fifteen over three. There take for two and what are the two categories turning to get fifteen over three. No, nothing, nothing fantastic, brilliant, yet, then substitute all that into the other one, so sixteen equals minus fifteen over B squared minus B squared, still nothing fantastic eh, sixteen equals five square when I get two, two, five, over three squared minus three squared. Yeah, that's just square . Square root has becomes , fifteen squared two plus five, B on the boxed squared, three square. Get rid of the, nobody has any questions? Multiply through sixteen B square equals two, two, five minus B to the four, cos B squared have B squared, multiply B square and I get that. Now bring it all over the left hand side and we'll get B to the plus sixteen B square, minus two, two, five equals what? That's just bringing that minus B squared,, bring that to twenty five minus . . We came to find out . Yeah. Like , you got, I mean put the other side of the . Cos what we're going to do now, is real what, really what this is, this is like a quadratic equation, it is B square, squared plus sixty B squared, minus two, two, five,, so that's a quadratic equation, but instead of saying X square, I'm saying B square, square, plus sixteen B square. So what I'm gonna do is use the , let's see, it's minus three, plus I'll minus the square in B square, sixteen strand , minus four times the eight, nine C, well I'm gonna do that, four times eight, nine C, equals plus nine all over to A, just two . Can't you do the main this way? You can't evaporate it, yeah. It vaporises fairly easy. Well I got . Very, very easily vaporises it, but and then when I do that I get minus sixteen plus I minus the square root off one thousand, one hundred and fifty six, all over two, plus minus sixteen, plus or minus what's the square root of one thousand one hundred and fifty six? Thirty six is it? I don't know. Thirty four oh, thirty four all over two. All over two, then if you pass, spread them over minus sixteen add thirty four gives me eighteen over two, or if I do minus thirty four I get nine over two, that'll be plus nine or even minus twenty five Eh,start off with, cos you've gone all the way through that. Yeah, eh with the end you could have B equals minus fifteen over here and you would have still got the same answer. Now we've got this far, so, now remember what we're doing, we're finding out what B squared is, so either, B squared is nine or B squared is minus twenty five. Yeah, now then, one of the things, when we get this complex numbers and B,itself is a real number and B itself is a real number, right,plus B, I, is actually what we call a complex number, if those two apart, they're just numbers. So we can't have B square in twenty five, twenty five cos nothing exists, there twenty five. , well we have got complex numbers, but we can't have B itself in the complex number, right, so B square must be nine, so either B is plus three or B is minus three, one or the two Now if B is plus three, then going back to me formula here is going to be minus five, cos if I put the three in it there, I get minus five from there. And if B is minus three, then here is plus three,plus five. , so the complex number that is the square root, is either two in that pair, minus five, plus three, nine, or it is five minus three, nine, so it's either that one, or it's that one, and we can write that down very, very simply because that one and that one are just the opposite sides, but either plus or minus. I suppose. Three, five, and when you've worked these square roots out, they always come out the opposites sides, it's always plus or minus,, always, always, always. When you work these square root things out, whatever square root is, it's always one, like one plus three, minus five, the other one's minus three plus five, they're always like that. Cos they're what we call complex conjugals. Do we gets points then sir,if the other one was twenty five? Yeah, it's just pure coincidence, it's just the way that trotting around, I think what we're trying to do was to say, something wrong in exam book, plus , plus , which is not liked, but,I don't think they are the alike. Cos they don't actually, if you do something like that, say you put plus five, minus five and then sit down and , you're the one that plus three and minus three you don't actually lose marks doing something wrong, you cannot be penalised for doing it wrong, you can only gain credit for doing something right, because they'll, give you five marks to doing that bit right and then knock three off for doing something else wrong, they, they would never give you penalty marks, they will only credit for doing things right, but so often it's quite like down as you want, you can't . All that's doing is, is the account against this sort of idea that you can always do it. Yeah. Or like people come to you getting forty per cent and forty per cent was, of these,, then, the, he was was not as good as that one, but that one gets the B, that one gets the C, so you wanna . That's an interesting point that, any square root, any square root you always get two answers for square roots yeah, it's always plus thing and minus thing, in complex numbers, when you get complex numbers there are always what we call complex conjugators, if you drew them on them, on them diagram, right, if you drew them on the diagram, what'll you get, plus five minus three I, plus five, minus three I, and then and then we get minus five, plus three I,You get plus and minus there. Pardon? That's, but that is the hardest thing, now the hard thing about that is not actual complex numbers, it's sort of these equations which is something else you've done,equations, but the other one, haven't really got time, the other one complex numbers said what it said to given by that, you've got to draw them two on a diagram, that, very very slow, calculate the modules as Z more minus Z two, what work is what Z one minus two is, they work in modules. Work out what Z one divided by Z two is, and then find the argument of it and give your answer in ratings, there. The last little bit it says, give your answer in ratings, suppose W, right I just, suppose W had the seven plus fifteen I, how you gonna get R, W in ratings? Well one way you can do it, is press the ratings button on your calculator, press fifteen divide by seven and then press the ratings button, so, just do that , change it on the ratings one, yeah, press fifteen divide by seven, in . One point one, three, four. One point one, three, four, right, one point one, three, four, right, OK do it like that, although that doesn't mean anything at all here, that's the right answer, because you, you've in ratings, right, if you wanted to, put it back on degrees, ah now press fifteen divide by seven equals and then press inverse . Sixty four point nine . Sixty four point nine , well sixty five point nought degrees, so sixty five degrees technically, right, that number is sixty five degrees, now, one pi is one hundred and eighty, pi is the same as one hundred and eighty degrees, so if we've got sixty five degrees what we've got is sixty five over a hundred and eighty,pi. Sorry? Do that, do that on sixty five divide by one hundred and eighty, multiply by the pi on your calculator, just one second Robin, yeah, it's usually, it's just theatrical, you should get , yeah, so you get the same answer, so you can either work it on ratings or you can write it like that, you could've actually left it like that, if you come to the third by, you put thirteen over what is it? eh Multiple fifteen. What, when you was in the bath. No . So what did you do at this farm today then? Rode the cows. Yes. Erm, tried to see the sheep. What time did the coach leave? Erm it was erm, well, it didn't leave early, it leave What straight to school. Yeah left about ten o'clock. Yeah did you have your lunch there? Yeah How many, did your whole class go? . What was it a barn? Yeah, and the woods. And the woods. Went to the woods in the . Yeah. From the . Was it a big coach? Quite a big . Who'd you sit next to? that's ain't it? Pardon! . , got another one upstairs I think. Yeah. Have you got one? So did you have your lunch at the barn or did you Oh we won't . You went back to the coach Er, no , you, we, we had this sort of classroom to stay What in the barn? yes. Oh yes. So we ate in there . we I don't, I don't know it's in Weybridge I think. Weybridge? Yes and erm erm a big bridge and we played this game called worm, there's this bits of paper and they pretend their worms Paper? yes, it's, a newspaper Yeah. cos we were, we were erm, with these two boys and about and erm erm I think it was , two foxes worms were behind them . There was this erm, the people were birds . there were little birds and the big bird, I was the big bird and my friend Jasmine was the little bird Yeah. we had to run to get a worm, but we erm we erm you had to get past the foxes without them touching you, if you touch them you won't be able to get a worm Oh right, what, then your out of play? well no, you go back and you have to start again, then you go, unless if you get say five that's how many worms you have to give baby birds a day Oh. so if there's some Lisa why's the video back? there's hold it a . where's the remote for the video?you got it? It's in the other room. If there was a 'p' Oh ok. on the, on the worms I . if there was a 'p' on the worms, it poison, you, you, you little You was still dangerous? your little bird is dead. Oh that's charming. Huh, huh. Where's the erm Lisa pass me the remote for the T V please so it was a good day out . Yeah. Have you got some trip coming up Lisa? No. What? No it erm, John and Linda are coming on Sunday. Oh, I didn't know that. , watch out, cos they've got a baby boy. Why? Called Craig. Yeah . How old is he? He's about, about a year old. One year? He's ah, I think he's gonna be every where . That's ok . I got . All of the boys in my class, every single boy tease me. Every boy teases you? Yeah. Aha, too bad. Huh, don't you mean she bullies the boys at school? I don't. I bet you do ah what do you want for tea? Erm . Erm . Well actually you just had a packed lunch today didn't you? Yeah. So you better have something er,something for tea. erm . Bacon and egg. Erm, Yeah what's that? Sounds like an aeroplane. . No, I mean what type? Oh I don't know there's a it's the helicopter. Is it? Yeah Oh. so er . Excuse me. Sorry what do you say Lisa? Could I have a biscuit? Erm, I don't think we've got any at the moment cos mum's just gone to the shops What do you want for tea Lisa? Erm Did you get your photograph taken then in the end?. Yeah . Well where, where, how did the bull drip on your head? Well, he was in this pen and I was sort of behind him Yeah. well, in front of him. head. I don't know, cos I, I was behind my friend Yeah. I was bit, in front of the bull and the bull got close enough to dribble on me. Did it smell? Yeah. Disgusting? Disgusting. A real slobbery one? When, when we went there was this er, more gates and his little his house, right, went through the little door, or big door , and he went through to the gate and he, and he sort of goes Did he have a ring through his nose? Yeah. Laugh. Yeah. What do you do at school today Caroline? you've got my special cup. at the beginning erm, at play time we went in Mrs Parry's room and watched and watched a video about places to live What Erm , huh What look's favourite place to live? Well, I think it was actually different places, but, about people living in the Grand Canyon will All I want No . for Christmas. You should of taken photographs . Mm, I, I didn't know because all of a sudden we got into school and Mr Walker said erm, when you've been in assembly go to Mrs Parry's room and erm we watching a video . Come on out the kitchen. Want to go out, yeah? Er,making lanterns Christmas lanterns? Yeah, oh we erm, bits of paper with patterns on them, like stain glass windows and the colouring, we colour them in and we stick them together and make a lantern Are they not for the er class room windows? No, we've got them sort of standing up on, on the top of our book shelf I suppose I could make a few lanterns for in here for Christmas. You don't want to stick them on the wall cos of bringing all the er paint off. Er like them . and that's only blue tack. I think Lisa Dad did that. No I didn't. Dad, the, well erm, were doing about things about light and we've got this black piece of paper, cutting out a shape sort of candle and cutting, erm colouring paper underneath so that we can put them on the windows at . What, let the light shine through? Mm so that can blow up Just think all these and newspapers stuck between . Why it was . Yeah . Yeah . Yeah he was a lot. You're intending to erm take them on board . Fine, well so er you have to allow on the . I know, what a martyr it's just You going to Sue? Yeah . Yeah. . What did he say, last I was walking bumper. . . Well, it's not my first day any way. . . Yeah, ok, well thank you for that yeah Yeah, have a good laugh Chris full explanation everything. No. He's not, why what have you got planned?. if you can remember what the rule . yeah. There must be some . Don't you need . I, I'm trying a little French at the moment cos What? wish me good luck, cos I need it . need all the help I can get . Yeah . why , that's what the problem you've spoken for a long time you just know it, but you don't know why you use that way, you just do that way. There must be some rules that you can follow er . Maybe erm,. Yes, you are saying it's worth the strong view . . Oh yeah . something German yeah Mm . why you said that in English, why you erm it's so unbelievable, simple. Oh it's just the same as that on the book It's really difficult Having exceptions to the rule do you think they're . Yeah, there's so many exceptions years ago, you said you know there's so many exceptions . You might as well, you can't ler , you might as well learn it parrot fashion, you can't learn the general rules, there's so many section to the rules you Why? might as well individual just a little bit . Oh. Tell you what me, I . Yeah. I'm not . No. . Well they get, you get sort of ones from the B B C are doing some aren't they, but I don't if they're actually video's, there was something inside, they say, it's the other week ago, German, French and Spanish I think learning centre in Yeah . push out, but I've had the cos that's . Is it German Chris? Well,why? No, it's just that Jill was asking the other day and I said I can't remember. Yeah, well not very , the only that sort of thing I . Yeah. . Yeah,thanks very much see you at . I can't believe it . Nor can I. There looks there sor sor sort of a big erm type of, it's almost like, well it is a that they do it's er . all the way round here, it just looks as though the on top of the bath robe cot into the oh into the look along there What were the discipline, it's appalling. Well he won't . And . umm-ing and ah-ing You wouldn't about nineteen and you get these big Come off it must of been horrible . , then when do you . I would of done just . Have we had an engineer Do what mate?. You doing flying one, zero? Think so unlocked. . to our are on sixty five,on Why what do you want I want four,Charlie on sixty three. . yes , this is what I think jacket . horrible . parking code . I think they're gonna change with the erm You with er early Yeah . So we've been starting on the, but this is a bit of a shame though because, what I like, when we, when we, when we have our three days off, it's nice to know on your, on your last day off that still have a late night because your not back to work until the afternoon you know . Yeah . Where's you might find on your last on the earliest at five Yeah, Oh yeah I suppose it will be much too early Left home at er today come in, I thought I so I'd only gone about half a mile down the road filled up my car, paid the money the car wouldn't start I kept turning nothing was happening and then all of a sudden after a couple of minutes it erm like the way I've button up my coat? . Alright I thought I was, I was walking . I was walking along talking to you and I was thinking this feels really strange you know . You know if I'd gone on the I said hello look here's a mad man . . You must of been . Oh it started in the end, I think it was the er starter motor, but I went home again and took Mandy's car instead, because I thought I don't want it to play up tonight, you know, in the car park so I'll have to check it out tomorrow afternoon. It was so embarrassing,sitting there, you know you couldn't, it must be ok, I've just driven here. Can I watch the end of Rupert? No you can't watch the end of Rupert. I watch . Say . What did you have for lunch then? Hello. We had, we had fish fingers, beans and chips Fish fingers, beans and chips Fish fingers, beans and chips . Alright, alright don't be stupid . I went down to Hobridge yesterday afternoon. when I went down there, there must of been a winding me up but the only problem was that er, it was all into er one thirty but er but I mean after you went out I took Thomas out on the road Yeah . So I said is that right in the old stories So. So I said to them pop down there on the way home, check it out Yeah. so time. . Well I'll book it up erm, find out at least a week before hand . Yeah I mean we, we said to them ring up on the day Yeah. the thing is by Friday morning there's a lot of people but er. People from Air Canada were talking about . Louise erm, two years ago we meet at the seven four seven for Bangkok air New York , we were in . Yeah. To have and Oh, it should be announced yeah, I think that Kevin should take the job, he might have five hundred passengers aboard the airline, he might have He have four hundred five Four hundred and five and six of them. like us, he . Yeah. . I said to Pam, go on tell her, do you think Christine will mind if we go . answer the question I ask,. . , I'm not , Julie had to go down . Why? Why . There must be a . Was there a big trail of dust down the corridor or something as a . Can I borrow that ash tray a minute?. Where've you been Ray, I've been looking everywhere for you? I've been here all the time. Just the Gas Board rang for you. Oh did they? Yeah. Ok, yes, I'm having trouble with my boiler, not the wife Oh, alright . the other boiler, ok Erm , but I'll ring back . they said they don't think they'll be able to do too much at the moment Ok. if you want to try and get hold of them again Alright. just that I tried the phone room, I'll take you down there and, I could see you from up here and I said he's around. Just gone to the loo Paul. Oh, oh. . Sorry about that. Erm it was Yeah about an hour ago How are you? Oh ok, oh he's probably half way between home Ok, mm and you then in that case, an hour ago. Yeah, I'll call them back, don't worry . You sure? Yeah I'll telephone. . How are you Paul? I'm fine thanks Christina, I'm even better now. . No. . See you later on Yeah. Take care. Oh shit, I was supposed to phone up Thomas. Yeah, I spoke to Thomas Yeah. and if there's something . Yeah. I, I said I can't . I went to Hoebury yesterday afternoon and they're fully booked till one thirty in the afternoon. . Oh, is he on tomorrow? I can tell him tomorrow. Ok. Well, that you were in this afternoon. Yeah, but tell him I went to Hoebury in the afternoon. Yeah . Good fully booked till one thirty in the afternoon, so there's, there's no point, we'll only be there for two hours.. Pardon? . That's it. you got one of those er you know Yes . . . And I . . I tried to ring the office . No, I mean he rang, I was supposed to ring him at home though. So it was a good day was it? he was doing well till buggered off. Yeah . . . Having tea . Sorry. . , yeah I have a . You weren't being very nice to us . I say you've been thank you very much. But I should of done Yeah someone is going to help me up I . . No. What was your problem? You just wait. Leave it. . Got her revenged planned don't be like that, honestly. Don't take it personally now do we? how can you take it personally when it's not your I was a bit disappointed in I, well I think it's You do? Two hundred and fifty . . See look,. Oh Daddy I went into the upstairs bathroom and turned on the light, it went on and it went ping and then turned off again. Christmas tree, I don't know where we're gonna put it. Oh we could move that vase and then put it there. No we could move the table over. But we haven't got a tree. Yeah shall I ask fa sa Father Christmas gonna get one. Well probably. He's got magic, he can go and get one. I don't know where we're gonna put the Christmas tree. We could put Yeah. it behind the door. one Could behind the door. And nobody would be able to get in. We could erm put it there. No we want to put it up We could have a small one. Could put it over there. Yeah b if you put it here it's only a small one there isn't it? Yeah oh yeah Can we make the erm fairy on. Can we move the dresser dresser up and put it in there? Erm. . Gonna cost a cost a lot of money . I remember when it was Christmas we bought What in there? Not a very good place. Can I come with you this year to get the Christmas tree? Me too! er ba er and I can get Put it there you can't get the T V. get the tinsel. Mm yeah. That'll cover it right up there. I'm going to give Granddad I dunno a present . . You can't Lisa! I can . Look there he is ! Oh. . I don't know where we're gonna put one. Mm Ever nearly everybody can have a Christmas tree, but some people can't. Some people can't because they haven't got enough money. Yes but what about ? Dad thinks we can't cos we need the television. That's What? Why? Nobody'll be able to see. ha. Haven't got a lot of room really, have we? No. Mm We could have a small one about there. Yeah a small one's not very good though, in there is it? If we can We've got pictures. No! . I'd I'd move that erm No we could move there this table over here and put it over there there. Or we might move this forward here Mm. and then Yeah. Even the cards just about. Mm. Oh. Don't wanna get one just yet anyway, it's a bit early. End up with all the needles dropping off. We've got the small Christmas tree about that big I've seen it. and it's hasn't got needles on it at all. just a big pine. you know that tinsel stuff it's it's not shiny. You been waiting long? I went up there and oh look oh they've gone! Oh. Where did you go? We must have parked we could have parked. We can that though. Yeah. What's up there Just there? Yeah. I just came down and I walked all through that Kenyan I w I walked all through that Nigerian mob and I thought oh we I'll walk down the ticket desk, see if this is all shut Someone walked down there. Wonder how much oh mush How are you lately, haven't seen you for ages, give us a ring still out buying the old place I married her, yeah. Yeah. What's up with Robert? Did Clare give you the message? I said erm He told me he said Natalie he said erm I nearly forgot. erm she said send her send her a mail something like that yeah so I went to the ticket desk, it was locked up and they'd just come walking back and I thought ah I hope she's not been waiting around. I can't do that I tell you, I mean I don't mind, don't get me wrong it's just that I was the last one back up and I got up there, still got a little bit of to do and they got more than they did Oh yeah. right, see you Yeah, oh yeah, I know. I mean okay so I thought ah I don't give a shit you know, I mean but I was only like two minutes behind. I know I know. and then Steve says well I'll just make last orders, see you later Paul. And then says you've got a key haven't you? Want fifty I says no!said oh alright I've had before where I have been told waited and helped people finish their Yeah yeah I done that. And those have gone home while I've been doing something else for them, they've gone, and left me! I can't believe it! And I could of gone with them! Yeah I mean I I mean sometimes when you get day you think oh yes they could, you know, so you like start a round don't you if you And you wait for other people an that and and you don't leave that's all I won't do that again,. I say I do I don't mind I just think what the bloody hell, you know we're only just like two minutes apart! I know yeah. It was like today, well right, we're off see you. Paul had asked me to do a swap to do his early next Wednesday so yeah, put the form in and everything the form came back today saying he's already on a late and the day that he's supposed to be repaying me he's already on shift the six o'clock news He . He loses control, I tell you. He hasn't got a clue what he's lost! . Good evening. In this programme we are going to look at the way in which British music has developed in recent years and its relationship to that produced by Continental Europe. I recently talked to Michael Hall, who lectures in music at the university. I asked him whether I was right in supposing that over the years British music had been influenced much more by the Continent than vice-versa. Yes, it's absolutely right. No doubt about it. Apart from two periods apart from the beginning of the fifteenth century, and I think in certain respects in our own day, and for the rest of the time we were dass land ohne muziek the land without music, I fear. As far as the Continentals were concerned, it was the sensuality of English music. What had happened in the fourteenth century, mainly French music had become very, very intellectual, very austere, very formal. The English at that time had produced a kind of ravishing sensuality which when we invaded Europe in France in the Hundred Years War and influenced the Burgundians, they were fascinated by the kind of sensuous sounds we were producing. And one composer in particular, a man called John Dunstable, had a profound influence on the direction which Continental music was going to take. In fact, his music is found not in England, it is found in mainly Italian and Burgundian libraries. Even at the end of the sixteenth century, which is a great golden era as far as we were concerned, you know, the madrigal came from Italy and it was the Italian import that influenced English composers, rather than the other way round. I think asked Michael whether people in France and Germany, for example, knew of the work of British composers such as Elgar. Hardly then at all. Well, they are played but not, not very often, and they are treated not with the same respect as we treat them. It's quite staggering, really amazing. I once conducted a major European orchestra, a German orchestra, and I conducted the introduction Allegro of Elgar and it was the first time they'd ever, ever played any Elgar, and they didn't like the piece. They thought it was slightly wishy-washy, or something. I thought it was a fantastic piece. And we do, you know, for us it's a standard classic. But no, the kind of subtlety, the rubarto was, you know, that is very, the hallmark of Elgar they didn't like at all. I think it's a musical difference in taste. I think, I mean, if you take Elgar I think what we admire about Elgar is this very strange, slightly introverted quality, this dark quality, this fluidity, this flexibility, this lack of rigid formal devices. Again, it's like Dunstable, this slight sensuality about Elgar. I don't mean that Elgar is a sensuous composer, but I mean the fluidity of Elgar, which is very much his style, which we admire and which is part and parcel of our sort of heritage, they don't see the point of it, they can't really enter into the spirit of it. It is something peculiarly English I think. The more contemporary serious composers are much more appreciated. I mean since Britten, and then later on Tippet and now Maxwell Davis and Birtwhistle, there is a general respect for English music and quite frequently the Continentals will commission a piece by Birtwhistle or Maxwell Davis now as if they were major composers, and indeed they are of course. So that there has been a major breakthrough in the appreciation of English music, but it's not quite, it's still on the periphery, I think, of erm music as far as the Germans, the French and the Italians are concerned. I asked Michael about the recent success of Benjamin Britten's opera, Peter Grimes, in Paris. Yes, but this is amazing. Peter Grimes was put on in Paris, but the first time a French company has put on Peter Grimes. Well Peter Grimes is, what, 1945. It's an old piece, thirty-six years old. It's a masterpiece, I mean we have been it's on every year in this country somewhere, and the idea that the first time a Parisian company should put on Peter Grimes in 1981 is staggering. It was done by Sadlers Wells in the late forties, but there has been no new production until this recent one in the opera. Well that really shows the kind of lack of respect that the French have had for, after all, what is an accredited masterpiece by a masterly composer. In fairness the Peter Grimes is done frequently in Germany, although strangely enough it is not quite as popular as some of the other pieces. It is very interesting that Peter Grimes, of all Britain's operas is not the popular opera as it is here. It is, however, done regularly in Germany, and all Britten's music is done frequently in Eastern Block and Russia. But what is the difference between orchestra and singers in Britain and the Continent? The sound is different. It's the sound of exceptionally brilliant wind players that we have, not such good string players. We are weak on our string players. We are not as accomplished as the best German orchestras, and this is not because we are bad string players, but simply because we're a kind of pot pourri, we have all kinds of different string styles in England. We haven't got and English string style, whilst there is a specific German string style or a specific Belgian, a specific Russian, a specific French — we haven't got that and we haven't got the richness and fullness of the string sound of the Continental orchestras on the whole. Our wind playing, however, is an incredibly high standard and what we have got in our orchestras are brilliant sight readers and if you want a sort of erm an orchestra to learn something then an English orchestra will take, I don't know, a quarter of the time that any other Continental orchestra will take. They are very, very, very quick indeed and very, very efficient, and this is why, since the War London has been the centre of the recording industry, simply because it's been worth the while for Americans in recording companies, for example, to record in London rather than anywhere else because we are so efficient. At one time, British singers were, dare I say it, almost rock bottom. No Continental opera house would engage an English singer erm now it's quite different. I would be surprised if there's a major opera house in Europe now which hasn't got and English singer. They are in tremendous demand, it really is surprising. I don't know whether it's just our standards are going up, or there's are going down. I think ours are going up very, very rapidly, but again the astonishing thing is the efficiency of the English singer. I mean, okay, we've produced some astonishingly good voices, nice sounds, but we are also very, very efficient. We can ready quickly, we can learn things quickly, we can cope, we can act on the whole rather better and rather quicker than the Continentals. In other words, we are able to sort of erm to fulfil a role in the opera house which is extremely beneficial to the Continentals. In any case, the situation has changed and we are, you know, almost pre-eminent in terms of opera singers at the moment. I asked Michael whether people ever came to England to study music. Yes, they do. They come to Sussex to study music. erm we've always had foreign students, music students, at Sussex. It's the same, I think, at the College Academy. Not great quantities, but there are certain aspects of music which we're still very good at and people want to learn from us. I asked Michael what was the second period when British music influenced the Continent. Well now, and it's not in serious music, it's in erm in popular music, in pop. I think that what has happened, certainly since the sixties, the sixties and seventies, English pop was absolutely pre-eminent. Of course, America has always been highly influential, but when one thinks of the Rolling Stones and Beatles erm and what have you in the sixties and seventies, and how much it has influenced Continental light music, not light music but popular culture, it is incredible. And what I find interesting is that it's the sheer vitality of the English sound — it's not just the Liverpool sound, it's the English sound — the vitality, the sensuality, the letting one's hair down quality, that is exactly what the Continentals admired in Dunstable, and strangely enough in a way what Elgar's got — this incredible sort of desire not to be over formal and to break down certain formal barriers which seems to be so characteristic of English music. I think I'm probably drawing too many parallels between the serious situation and the pop situation, but certainly no doubt that English pop for the last twenty years has been pre-eminent in Europe, and still is. It's the fact that we are so close to America, that we've got this highly dynamic American sound that we had in the sixties in this country with the kind of dynamism in the sixties and the desire to sort of break through all kinds of formal barriers — I mean the mini skirt period, you know what I mean and in certain cities, like Liverpool, where this feeling of it is necessary to break through barriers to create this kind of dynamic sort of extremely vital sound. Compare that with, you know, the very, very formal kind of pop or light music you get from Germany, or even Italy, compared to what we've produced. It is part of our society. We are accused of being the poor men of Europe, and I think we are economically and industrially the poor men of Europe or at least our performances haven't been very good in this respect since the War, but the other side is that because we are the poor men and are self-conscious about it, that we have compensated, in a sense, in the vitality of our music and of our culture, and certainly in the pop culture. Our pop culture is, as I say, to use the word again, pre-eminent. But do we have the same vitality in our serious music? Admittedly we haven't had a Stockhausen in our midst erm we haven't had a Boulez perhaps. These two men, in particular, who have absolutely dominated the post-War scene. But my feeling is that the sort of run-of-the-mill, solid English composer, I say solid — they are not actually solid — but I mean the Harrison Birtwhistles, the Maxwell Davises of this world are some of the most interesting people in the world at the moment. My favourite is Harrison Birtwhistle. I find that his vitality, his sort of erm sense of rightness is incredibly interesting and much more rewarding than a lot of things that are going on on the Continent. The Continent is still self-conscious about its music. Our music is much more spontaneous, I think, like the pop. Michael had this to say about the inaccessibility to the general public of recent contemporary music. The truth is that the are surprisingly perceptive of what is good and what is bad, and it is very interesting that the best contemporary composers are those that actually will fill the hall — people will come and hear them. We moan a great deal about bad for contemporary music, but put on a big new Stockhausen piece in London and the likelihood is that you will fill that hall, provided you prepare it. I suppose I'm feeling slightly sceptical about the situation, but if you ask me as blankly as that of course my immediate reaction, my old reaction would be ‘but of course I feel confident about the future of British music’, you know, in my more sceptical mood now I still would say ‘yes’, but not quite so enthusiastically as before. I still think, however, that there is, there will always be a future for music and we have any vitality we will produce music, so if music dies, we die. That's an awful thing to say. Well hopefully music will not die, but will continue to give joy and meaning to the lives of millions. Next Tuesday it's the turn of drama and literature, and I shall be looking at the place of Britain in Europe with the help of Gabriel Droskapovchy . Until next week, then, goodnight. Well Mr . Good morning. What can I do for you today sir? I was down last week I had er from Saturday er my ear was all clogged up, terrible pain. And I was taking a course of antibiotics. And your your brains are still a bit dubious. So Let's have a look in and see what you've done to the poor old thing. You're alright Still still not right, still not right. awkward between your And you, you're frightened with your dog all the time? Yeah. Are you frightened when you're on the phone? That you can hear yourself I can hear myself talking all the time. Quite clearly? What, on the phone? Aye. I haven't really noticed that. No. You didn't notice any No. What what about when you're lying in bed at night? No, it's just a dullness all the time Just a dullness all the time . Aye. Right. We're gonna get you some special drops to use er there there s is there's still a bit of the eardrum's a wee bit blocked Mhm. looking. And we've got to lift that off Aha. to get a look underneath the er right. I mean I'm finding that you know through it because I'm sort of straining all the time I'm getting terrible headaches and all of the That's right. rest of it cos obviously at work you're straining every minute That's of the day. Let's get , get some of the good old fashioned stuff. Would it have came off a cold or something? It's probably come off a cold , it's er, there there's a tube in there, and the other side. If you could cut yourself down through the middle, there's you're ears on the outside there and there's a wee channel that goes in Aha. and at the bottom of that there's what's called the eardrum. Aha. Now in the inside of that it opens out, there's an opening in the bone and that leads down among other things into a tube down here, now that is connected up further down to the sinuses across Aha. here so if you get a a heavy cold, some of this gunge that runs down the back of your throat gets into this tube and Right. blocks up this tube, comes right up into the back of your eardrum, blocks Yeah. up that wee bit there, and I think this is what I'm seeing, Yeah. is this stuff lying in the bottom there. You can see the level, Aha. across the bottom of your eardrum, and it's like standing and you're , Aha, that's exactly what it feels like, you keep sort of thinking Aha, something like that to help. If you could only stretch or you know turn your head a certain way it would run out. But I'm almost certain that's what I'm seeing Aha. in there. That that was the initial feeling that I got, it was like a build up of pressure in it, but on the inside and not in the outside Mhm. That's right,it's a similar to hat you get if you go flying when you've got a cold . I was gonna say that. Aha. I'm almost certain that's what's doing it to you so let's see if we can get through to it with that, Right. get it broken up for you. Aha. Now it's a bottle, two drops in the morning, wee bit cotton wool, just to stop it running out, don't put it inside, Aha. right? In the morning and then before you go go to bed at night. Right. Okay? No bother. Right right . Bye bye. Cheerio now.. What can I do for you this mor oh well shall I do Jade first? Yeah. Well I've been up practically the best part of the night with her, just crying. Oh Jade. Pulling at her ears. But she, the last couple of days she's hardly eaten a thing Right. and she's, I notice she's got a rash coming round here. Yeah, any sickness or diarrhoea? None at all. She's had a little bit of diarrhoea, well it's not diarrhoea it's such a, I know Squidgy when she's teething, cos Yeah. she fills nearly every nappy Right. but she's just been crying nonstop. Mm. Well she seems quite content sitting there. The common problems are the n the throat and ears in kids Mm. and that'd go along both with Yeah. ears I suppose and not eating of course. couple of weeks back she got a throat infection, I just wondered whether it had come back. Now then. Shall we have a look at dolly first? Shall we look at dolly? Shall we look at dolly's ears? Look at dolly? Ooh dolly's got nice ears . Oh yes. Dolly's okay, isn't she? Mm. Shall we look at Jade next? Well she's certainly got a few glands coming up. Right Jade, I'm going to have a look in your ears,and this is going to tickle a little bit . Okay? You your mummy. Very good. There's that one. Yeah, now they're both okay. Yeah. They both look congested but not infected at all. So let's have a look down her throat, and that's likely to be the source of the problem. And there's no spots anywhere else? Mm, no. Okey-doke. Shall we have a little look,open your Open your mouth. Open your mouth. Ooh let's have a little look then, let's have a little look at these teethies. Oh good grief, what great big teeth you've got. What great big teeth you've got. You got the great big, you've got some great big tonsils too, to go along with your great big teethies. Have a look at your great big tonsils? Come on sweetheart, open your mouth . She will in a minute. Oh look. have little look. Come on. Good girl. you hit the back of the tongue, they gag, and you can Yes. see everything. Good girl. Just a moment's discomfort. She's got a very very nasty looking throat. It really is extremely inflamed. And that I should think is a source of this. She only had one a few weeks a go as well. Yeah, I know. Well children of this age are prone to them, Yeah. they haven't met all the bugs that you and I have, so they keep coming down. Come on sweetheart. Once they hit them Yeah. so Well I used to suffer with them. Yes. My throat's Now. What we'll do is we'll give her penicillin. Yeah. I would an for two reasons I, I'm going to give her quite a long course. The first one is, you need to give longer courses of antibiotics to clear throat infections Yeah. as a rule. Come here sweetheart. And secondly she's actually recently had one so we need to make sure we completely eradicate it. I suppose this could be a flare up of the last one. Which occasionally happens, some of them are difficult to get rid of. Yeah. So it's four times a day for ten days, it's not Amoxil Right. It's ordinary penicillin. And it must be taken on an empty stomach. Yeah. But this is the drug of choice for this sort of throat infection. Mm. Oh, come on. Hello. Hello, erm it's a Mr Brian from the for you. ? A workload survey that the are doing, and er they they're trying to get loads of GPs to do it and of course they want me to do it next week, and I'm not here next week. So that makes it very easy to fill in, so I don't mind doing that at all. So four times a day for ten days, on an Yeah. empty stomach, stacks to drink, Calpol if necessary. Yeah. And that'll hopefully do the trick. Right. Okay. Right. You're next. Well I just keep when I sit down, I'm tired all the while and I've got no appetite whatsoever. Mm. Interesting. Weight okay? Well I have been slimming constantly since I had Jade cos Mm. I put nearly four stone on. Yeah. And er You must be down somewhere near your target weight I should think. Well I'm about I waver now between eight stone ten and Yeah. nine stone. Are you still actually dieting? Well I just, yeah I suppose I am Mm. because I'm not eating anything if I think to myself it's fattening, I'll Yeah. Yeah, okay. Waterworks, bowels okay? Er waterworks, yeah. Yeah. Bowels? Well occasionally. I don't think I'm eating enough to actually make myself go. Mm. Yeah. Mm okay. Have you had problems before? No. Ears? Throat? Nose? Yeah I'm fine. All bits and pieces okay. Periods? Er yeah, they've been fine. Mm. You've not really had anything wrong with you in the past, have you? No. Just looking back through your notes. You've had babies. One. Baby or appendix in ninety eighty three. Yeah. Jade And then not an awful lot has really happened to you. Is there any family history of thyroid disease or liver disease or anything exciting? Oh. Not that I can No. think of, no. Mood okay? Mood? Mood. Well when, the week before I'm due for my period I'm really really nasty, in Mm. fact I'm vicious. And er Do you feel more er active with that? Sort of, is it an active anger or do you still feel tired and ? Erm no not really I, I feel alright, it's just that I'm so nasty all the while and Mm. I can't seem to help it. As soon as he come through the door I go for his jugular and take everything out on him and it, it's not fair. This is a familiar story. Now I try to avoid chocolate and I crave it when I Premenstrually? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Which you what er are you on the pill? Yeah. U Which one are you on? Uginon Thirty. Mm. You see in theory you shouldn't really get pe premenstrual problems on the pill but people do. It's the week before, and the week while I'm on. So it's Yeah. for two weeks. Okay. Right. How would you say you if, what are you like after that? Are you normal? Yeah. But still tired and a bit? Oi. Or are you a fairly normal normal? No I normally bounce straight back Yeah. and I'm alright. Yeah. It's just this time I'm tired all the while. Yeah. Okay. Let me check your blood pressure. It's a more importantly to make sure it's normal rather than to look for a problem with it but Now you're not trying to escape, are you Jade? Come on, get your You can go in the other cupboard if you want, that's a broom cupboard. That's very exciting in there, it's got a table in it. And a pair of weighing scales. Nothing wrong with your blood pressure. Mm. I want to you look up for me. Mm, stick your tongue out. Er yes. Mm. It's difficult to tell with your make-up on but I think you look a bit pale. Yes. The eyes, your tongue and your finger nails both look Mm. rather washed out to me. And that might go along with er diet. Mm. Fairly strict diet and periods cos women tend to lose iron and certainly women who are actively dieting can actually become iron deficient. And that will really aggravate everything Yeah. that I'm w now, so what I suggest we do, is before we say we must make your premenstrual tension better with various manip various bits and bobs, and there are quite a few things we can do to help. We really ought to do some baseline blood tests, and say Yeah. are you anaemic? Check your body biochemistry, check your thyroid gland . Cos these are the things that upset women and Mm. creep in. And if you are mildly anaemic, or short of iron, that may be the clue to why this has happened now, rather than happening before. Mm. So if we arrange those. Now it's too late to do them this morning cos the van's already gone. But if we get you an appointment to see Georgina one morning at your convenience, so we can rattle those off Mm. and then do those. Is that okay? Yeah. No that's fine. You've done very well with the diet of course. I was getting a bit disheartened at one point No. and You're fine. You, you must be round your ideal weight really. So I mean you don't want to go di di down to a size eight or a size ten, cos I think you'd feel Mm. worse if you did. Mm. Now then have you found something interesting? I've got something interesting here, it's called a teddy bear sticker, and it says, no not, not a thing full of Codafiene tablets, no. They belong on the shelves knock them off. This says I was good at the doctor's today? Would you like one of those? Jade. Would you like one of these stickers? Shall I give you a sticker? Ah. Look at that. I bet there's no one else out there with a sticker today, I certainly haven't given any out so Come on. . Pick your baby up . Pick your baby up. Where you teddy bear look. Okay so we'll rattle, if we do those and then we'll have a chat. Yeah. See what happens. I mean if it turns out you're not anaemic and your sort of pallor is normal for you, Yeah then, then we can go ahead and get cracking straight away. Right. But I suspect that may be something we need to address as well. Okay? Right. Have we got some er stuff for, stuff for Jade? Come on, get your dolly. Can I pick dolly up? Come on. I'll pick her up. Come on Right see you then. All right sit please. I've checked your books and I have to say that I'm very pleased. Worked very well most of you erm Rachael you weren't here last week were you? What five S, this is five S five you were over there. Er . Oh well it doesn't matter. We've got . . Yeah . I'll explain later. So this this is five S? Yes. Right. Mrs . Okay . Right if I can give Ken those to give out. Erm and while Ken's giving them out let's try and remind ourselves what we talked about last week. The rule is I ask and you put your hand up. What did we talk about last week? Chris. The universe. The universe. What is the universe? Louise. Er the universe is er planets. Is it? Is that all it is? No hand up. Jennifer. The universe is everything. Everything absolutely everything. How big is the universe? Phillip. No one knows. Nobody knows. What's that word, who was that put that word up that was it you Phillip? Er what was that word you you used last week? Infinitive. Infinitive. The universe is infinite we don't know. When we look out of the window at night what do we see? Jody. Stars. Stars. What are those stars? Suns. Suns. Not all of them most of them are. Some of them are? Alan. Planets. Planets. How many stars are there? Come on everybody's hand should be up, how many stars are there? It's that word again isn't it? Infinitive. We can't count them because if we could count all the ones that we could see there's still plenty beyond those. What's the nearest star to us. What's the nearest one? Louise. Is it the sun? The sun. The sun. Our sun. Well why can't we see stars during the day. If we look out at the sky why can't we see stars during the day? Steven. It's too light. It's too light and where's that light coming from? The sun. The sun. Our star is too bright for us to see stars from further away. Do you know why we can see them at night and not at day time. Why is the sun bright during the day time? Does it switch off at night? That's what we've got to go on to. I'm just wondering how much you know already. Kieran. The earth turn round . The earth turns round so we're in a shadow. Host stars will have what going round them? The moon. Not the moon no. Phillip. . Try. You're doing really well. Planets. Planets. How many planets has our sun got that we know about because there might be some we don't know. Lee. Nine. Nine. Nine that we know about. Which one are we? What's the name of our planet? Katrina. Earth. Earth. How where do we come in the order of nine? Are we furthest away, nearest, in the middle?. Third. Third. And you wouldn't remember just how far away we are would you? You, come on. One hundred and fifty million kilometres. A hundred and fifty million kilo kilometres. I think you deserve a house point there. What house are you in? . . Oh go on then. Hundred and fifty million kilometres from the sun. And what does the sun do for us? Er gives us energy. Gives us energy. What sort of energy? Sun light and . Light. Katrina. Warmth. And warmth and without those we can't live. Light and warmth. Without the light plants couldn't live and without plants we couldn't live. Do you think we could live on another of the planets then? What's the one nearest the sun can anyone remember? Stacey. Mercury. Mercury. What would it mean being nearer the sun? What would it mean about that planet compared with earth? We wouldn't be able to live. Why? It would be too hot. Oh lovely and warm a nice sun tan. No? . Er it's, what are you saying? I mean are we talking it's a lot hotter, too hot. What would happen to us? We could die. We . All right so we can't go that way it's too hot. What's the next one to Mercury? Venus. Venus. Venus. That's about the same size as earth you know. Mercury's very small but Venus is is roughly like us. How about that one then. Could we live on Venus? Do you think? No. No, why not? Because we're we're in the exact spot where we've got enough warmth and Exactly. That's a good point. We're here because we're suited to being here. If we sh wanted other conditions we'd live on a different planet or we would have developed on a different plant. We have to be exactly where we are. Earth's just the right place. Let's just see how smart you really are then. You've done Mercury which is nearest before. You've done Venus, what comes next? Er there are some hands that aren't up. Come on what comes next, what's number three? Number three in charts for the last million million years Michael. Mars. You've missed one out. Oh sit down. You're life doesn't depend on being asked to answer this question because you know the answer. Oh I'm going to ask somebody who hasn't got their hand up. Kendal. Earth. Earth exactly. Right Mercury, what comes next I've forgotten? Erm mars. Steven. Venus. Venus. This is? Come on Jenny. Earth. Earth. Now Michael. Mars. Mars and we don't know any moons do we? Yes. Er d'ya mind, I'm the teacher. If I say you don't know you don't know. You don't know, Lee. You don't know what comes next, you don't. What is it? Jupiter. Is it? Yeah. We wrote it down in our book last week. All right. Erm what comes after Jupiter then? Look at them all looking through their books for goodness sake. Lee. Saturn. Saturn. What comes after Saturn. Uranus. Uranus. Neptune. Neptune. Pluto. Pluto . That's fairly straight forward then. Yes Mr . Yes Mr . Kieran says we're on earth we belong here this is the perfect place for us. Jennifer how far are we from the sun? One hundred and fifty million kimome Kimometres. Kimometres Kilometres. Yes and I'm gonna give you this sheet which it's to save time for drawing it. This is where you now need to concentrate. What we've done so far is dead easy. Because it's not as simple as it looks on this sheet. What's at the centre of our universe? Not our universe our solar system sorry. Kieran. The sun. The sun. Our sun our star. Is there somebody sit there going ? Think, does it? No. No it doesn't. What does the sun do? Gives us light and . It does but that's because it's like a huge atom bomb flowing hydrogen all the time. It moves around in space, it's moving all the time. All those stars are moving. Not quickly as far as we can see. Don't get upset you're not going to disappear one night. All right concentrate. The sun is moving, it's also turning, spinning, like a ball spinning on your finger. What are the planets doing? Revolving . They are spin not all of them. Not all of them. Now that's a little thing you might want to check if you've got an atlas at home. Some of them don't revolve don't spin in their axis. Earth does. What else are they doing, apart from those that spin? Yes. Moving. Moving. And they're moving around the sun. What do we call the path that they follow? When something's going round something else, do you know the word? Oh no. Try it. Solar. No that's that's to do with the sun. That's what we talked about last time yes. But if you know it. What about space craft? Space craft goes up and when it gets to a certain height above the earth it just goes round and round and round. What do we say it's doing, what what is it in? Come on star trek, when he parks his star ship what does he say? We're in? Space. Well yes you're in space. Pardon? Well hardly ever our watch. Orbit. Orbit. They're in orbit. Orbit means you go round and round and round and round and round. Because you're held there by all these planets and stars pulling at you. And that's what holds these planets. The sun has its own gravity. Do you remember me mentioning that? And it's trying to pull the planets in, Lee, but other stars are pulling them and stopping them falling into the sun. All different distances away from the sun and there's Jennifer's a hundred and fifty million millimetres. All going round in, what's the word again? Orbit. Orbit. In fact this a this isn't quite accurate. Because the orbit isn't round isn't a circle, it's an ellipse, it's more like that. All right? And while you've got the planet orbiting the sun there are things that orbit the plant. What d'ya call something that goes round and round a planet? Think you've all seen them. At least one regularly. When you look at night you see? Lee. Stars. But they're not ones that are orbiting the planet. Katrina. Moon. Moon. Moon orbit the planet. Here it tells you how many moons each planet's got. Earth has one you know that. Jupiter which is a huge planet, if you look carefully here this is a this is to scale, this shows you the size of the planet. So this size of Jupiter compared with earth. You see, there's Venus which is about the same size, Mercury's a small one, Saturn is huge, Uranus, Neptune they're big ones and Pluto's another one about the same size as earth. So that's not quite accurate either. This is just to give you the order and the distance. And Jupiter has twelve moons. Some of the moons of Jupiter are enormous. These are all orbiting Jupiter as Jupiter orbits the sun. Right. Would you give one of those out. We we won't do anything with it yet. We need now to open our books. Rule off from where you were before I want you to get some information down about our solar system. More or less what we've just talked about. Because it's still only the second week with me I think get the information down and we'll do what we did last week. Do you remember what we did last week? We did it all together. And by the way I'm very pleased to see that some of you actually wrote it completely in your own words didn't you. Either that or I can't read your writing properly. That's very good. As you get the facts right. We finished off with giving a list of the planets haven't we? We've talked about the sun a little bit, we just have done. We started to talk about the solar system. How far have we got on the solar system Josephine? Naming the planets? Mm. We need to do a bit about the sun spinning and moving through space don't we? We've not got that down have we. So put today's date. What happened to the one that you had did you give it back in? Have you got a ruler? So can somebody give me a sentence that explains what we talked about the sun isn't staying still it's, all right Kieran. The sun's in the middle of the galaxy that Well it's you can't say in the middle of the galaxy, it's only in the middle of the galaxy as we look at it. Er let's be absolutely scientific. Erm all we need to say is the sun isn't still, what can we say. Go on Louise. Is it moving? The sun moves through space yes. And while it's moving through space what is it doing, what did we say. Steven. Is erm it spins. Spins good. What shall we say spins or rotates. I think spins is best. Quick the sun. So what did we say. Louise said you said that you said? It's moving. The sun moves through space and Steven we decided on spins. Spins. Just to make sure that erm just to make sure that we don't think it's just spinning wherever it feels like spinning, it's spinning on its axis isn't it. D'ya know what the axis is? Erm imaginary line that goes down through the middle of a ball, yes, through there Jupiter. No apostrophe on its. No this is an apostrophe free zone for now. Next er thing we need to describe is that planets move round the sun don't we? How can we say that? Go on then. The planets all nine planets all move round Well let's not say all nine planets for all we know they'll discover a new one tomorrow. Have to say the planets and don't forget we've got to think about other solar systems as well so we're not let's not limit us to to the number, the planets why not. Yes. Go on. The planets orbit around the sun. Everybody happy with the word orbit? Do you understand that? Kieran suggest we say, instead of saying the planets move round in orbit we should say the planets orbit the sun. Yes? Suits me. Saves chore. It's essential that we we understand this orbiting bit because that makes it makes the seasons which we're going to go on to do. But I'm sure you know all about them anyway. Right. What else did we talk about and we need to know, we haven't got down yet. We talked about the sun moving, we've got that, spins, planets orbit the sun. What else might might there be out there in space? Think about what you've seen. Jupiter's got twelve sun moons. Twelve moons. The moons that's what we need. Need something else first. Said the sun spins, do all the planets spin? Er no. No. Can we check that? I'm thinking of one in particular that wants checking. There's one that's very hot one side and extremely cold the other. So some of the planets spin. Is there anybody that can look into that for us for next week? Oh Jamie's not here is he? Then we've got Louise's point about moons. The moons orbit what? erm the planets. The planet. Do all the planets have moons? No. No. So that's some planets haven't why not? That's a surprise Jeremy. Some planets have moons. And that's on that sheet that you've got. There are quite a lot of other bits and bobs floating about, asteroids, meteors, little bits of chunks flying all over the place. Now can we think of a famous thing that sometimes appears in space? Halley's comet. Halley's comet which is er a big lump of rock that flies around in its own orbit. It's not part of our solar system it just is it every sev how many years is it every seventy six or something? It's not that long with Halley's comet because you don't see it very very well sometimes. I think it's . I can't remember that's something else you need to check. Erm it's quite regular I know, but some years you just can't see it very well. Erm and there are loads of other ones some only come every few hundred years. And they just travel through the the galaxy on a huge orbit, yes? Is the thing what happens in America where ? Mud? Like something to do with mud like comes from America. What to do with space? Yes. You're not thinking of er like er a meteorite are you ? Yeah. A meteor yes, yes I know what he means now. A meteor is is something rock floating through space. When it comes into our atmosphere it's called a meteorite and most of them burn off as they come through the atmosphere. Some of them and yet you get huge damage. Like there's all That's it everything knocked down and And everyone there's like dead deep and deep Cany er crater. Crater. Everyone drowns. Yes all right, let's not worry about that. Okay. Let's go on to talk about I assume you know this. I shall talk through it and if you can get something written I'll leave you to do a diagram and you may want to staple this into your book staple's easier than gluing this. Glue your pages together then. Erm if you wanted to get time to look at the chart to colour the planets the right colour that's up to you. Day and night. What do you mean by day and night? Is it what happens? It it usually does yes. Can you explain what is happening? How long is there of day and night? Twenty four hours. Yes it's actually a day, what we call a day. Twenty four hours. What happens in that twenty four hour period? switches from day to night. Why, why twenty four hours, what's happening in twenty four hours, Stacey . Sit there looking puzzled. Have to . You either know this or you don't and when when you hear what the answer is you're think, oh yes. There's the sun going down. The sun doesn't go, er he, think about what you're saying, explain it exactly. We turn round. We do? Yes so we orbit You turn round every once every twenty four hour. What do you mean by we? Earth. The planet turns round once every twenty four hours. And when you talk about earth as a planet it has a what at the beginning of the name because it's a proper noun. Always Now it doesn't mean to say every twenty four hours it has to quickly spin round. It takes it twenty four hours to turn round. Part of the time our side our half of the sphere is facing the sun. And the rest of the time when we're facing away from Hello Mrs Lawrence. Hello how are you? Can I borrow some books? Books? And some . Those blue ones that are down there on your . Oh yes of course. Of course yes feel free. Thank you. Oh thank you. I knew they were there. Yes of course you did. When we are facing away from the sun what? When we are facing away from the sun? It becomes night. Well, it's science, think what's it exactly what you're saying. Once it becomes night what happens?what happens when it's night? Go on. The sun goes to the other side. The sun doesn't move.. Erm it doesn't erm Come on Kieran it's got to be exact. the moon. No not necessarily. Er Kieran I want some action please, please. Can I borrow this? Is it er when you don't We've got more anyway. when you don't the sun it's in like a What's the word? a black shadow. Brilliant, that's fine. When we're facing away from the sun you are in? All together one two three Shadow. And Kieran we call that shadow? Night. Night. Well try and explain it. Who's nearly finished writing off? Katrina and Kieran out here please. Right, have you here Katrina. Katrina is the sun right? Stand forward a bit otherwise I'm in the way. It's all gone dark, there's an enormous teacher in between and the sun. Kieran is the earth. Kieran is facing, sorry back now. Kieran is facing the sun. Kieran is in light right? Now turn slowly, still day time for Kieran, still day time, still day time, now what's happened? Afternoon. What's happened? Stand still now Kieran. Steven? It's going round so it's turning to night. He's in night, this side of him is in day. Keep turning. Keep turning. Long night. . Wakey wakey Kieran daytime. All right don't don't build your parcel. Now of course all the time Ah Ooh what you, you and me, one of these days, one of us is going to crack up. It's not going to be is it Jennifer? Of course all the time Katrina's spinning round as well. But it doesn't matter as far as we're concerned because one side of Katrina is just as bright as the other side. Yes? All right. At the same time Kieran is moving as he's spinning he's moving round. Now if we had we could do this with all nine planets. All right. You've passed the audition. We need to do a diagram for that. Does everybody understand that? Say so if you don't. Because it starts to get a bit more complicated now. Right thank you you two sit down. And how might we draw that? Right. We need a planet first. No they're third. No that third actually. Is that Jupiter? Look at it. I just drew those on purpose because you small children don't understand. You always said, you always said Mark but you do don't you? Because it's not scientific, you don't want that on there do you? Well it looks like an arrow's gone through it so I don't think it would work. All right let him do it. All right all right I can take cri I can take criticism. I won't get upset . Doesn't matter. All right don't don't criticize me for this not being an accurate map. I haven't got time to draw the world out properly. That for you information is sea. Er shh, we'll do it with cos there's more sea over there and I'm going to have to draw some plans. Now there's a bit of America, whoops. This is a nasty earthquake on the west coast of America east coast of America. Right, bit of land in the middle, doesn't really matter. Could be any planet, right. And the sun Yes it's not scientific. Shh. It's not scientific but I felt like it. That's the sun. The sun rays are shooting off into space you know that light travels in straight lines, yes? Take my words for it. Here, I'll have to draw that line on again anyway, is daylight. It's important to understand that the earth is actually tilted slightly. Right? That's all right with you ? Oh fine. Let's right? That shh,waste of time. The sun's shining Katrina it's shining. The light is travelling at, it's hitting the earth. is it in day or night? Day. Day. Why day or night? Night. Just just just a minute this is a frightening new concept. Is that part in sunlight or not? Yes. Z day or night? Josephine. Day. Day. A is it day or night? Luke. Night. It's night because it's shaded. It's on the shaded side. Right. Have you all finished that board? Yes. Now we said that the earth rotates once in how many hours? Twenty four. Twenty four. So in twenty four hours it will be exactly as it is now having gone all the way round, yes? Can anybody tell me how long it will be until A is on this side and is on that side? No. It will be exactly the same place, it will have gone all the way round, right? Lewis. It will be twelve hours. Twelve hours good lad, house point. Oh you're in Sherwood aren't you? Yeah. What a good idea. Erm in twelve hours it will be half way round, so the position will be reversed. I feel a diagram coming on. Oh my class makes a groan when I say that. Right. diagram. The tilt's still the same way. If it's rotating round like you want me to draw. It's like it's like one of those old films isn't it. Twelve hours later. Is that the north pole and the south pole sticking out of the earth? You counting on surviving this lesson? Kieran, a word of advice. Just because I'm critic doesn't mean to say I'm . . Any more from you madam and you're out here drawing X Y Z. Right concentrate now. Shh. Nearly had yellow sea then. There's the water again. There's a bit of land. Right. Now Where will A be? Someone come and point to it. On the other side of the magpie. Direct me. Straight line down. Down. This way. Which way? Towards you or me? This way, up a bit, across a bit this way, down, that's it. Here, A. Good. Shh. X Y Z. Stacey direct me. Quietly. Help me here, this way or that way, right or left? Louise? Left. Right. Down. Down. There. X Y Z. Right. The sun's still over here. Honestly think, it's rotated it's face is on the other side. It looks like it Shh. Now is A in daylight or night, Phillip? Day. Day. What about X Y and Z? Night. Night. I want you to do a diagram like this. Mm . And then we've got twelve hours later, half a day, turned round half way. Right can I ask you to pay attention to a couple of things when you do this diagram. Firstly, I'm sure we've got the earth on a tilt. Won't particularly matter with what we're doing now but it will do when we go on to seasons. Very important that the pole is pointing top and bottom. You don't have to do it perfectly round because the earth isn't perfectly round. You don't have to draw the continent and oceans exactly as they are because it's a diagram. What you do have to be is neat, your labelling is in pen, your drawing is in ? Pencil. Pencil. You have about twenty minutes, listen, to do this in your own way. I should get, how many of you are there today? Twenty four? Only Jenny away? Laura. Oh Laura's away and Paul yes. I should get twenty two different diagrams. When you've done that I want you to look at this. If you want to colour the planets, don't all go and stand round that picture, go and have a look come back and colour them. You need crayons, there are some crayons in there, cupboard. If you were away last week can you please leave space to catch up with the writing which you will do in your own time. All right. Does anybody have a problem with what they've got to do before we start put your hand up if you don't know what to do. Luke a problem? I hope you're not talking to me like that. Please may I borrow a rubber sir. Already? Why don't you ask for a rubber when you make a mistake. You haven't made a mistake yet? You'll be writing in pen though. You haven't been told to start yet, see you in a minute all right? Yes? Everyone know what to do? Yes sir. I don't mind you talking to the person next to you but keep the noise down please. I want this work this week to be as good if not better than the work you did for me last week. Which I'm very pleased with, very impressed. Yes James? Yes they're erm don't forget your title, the title for your diagrams as well, day and night the same title will do, in pen underlined. Come on then Luke. You want a rubber don't you? Can I just erm, carry on working but just look this way a minute please. Have you seen have you seen this? Beautiful work. Well done. I've not graded your work I will give you A Bs and Cs next time. Yes keep working while I just explain that if you've not had it before. Erm Luke put your hand up and wait to be asked to speak please. Yes Luke? Yes you have to to explain what's happening. If you want to do some writing with it to explain earth rotates half way in twelve hours that's up to you. Yes. Yes we've just said. When you draw can you put that up? Of course you can. Yes. There's a tin full of counters you can use. In you come. Oh. That's better. Here. Here. Come here. Who's, who's making all the noise? Is it you? You shouting? There you are. Are you shouting? Well , what can I do for you today? Oh. Well is the results of th that X-ray in? I was away getting my hand X-rayed. Clear as a bell. Is it? Mhm. Yeah. It's a neuralgia kind of thing. Is it? Yeah. I'm afraid Er so. well, I need another prescription for . yes. Doctor see about this hair of mine, it's just not coming back in. It's not coming back in? No. And I feel it's getting really really thin. I mean Is that right? I have took alopecia before I mean I thought maybe Mhm. it was because it was the wee one, but that's her Aha. fourteen months, so I mean it should be Oh aye. showing as wee bit er of improvement. be alright. Yeah. But I mean i it's not. And that bit there's completely bald. To there. Right. And this bit here at the top is kind of starting to go. Right. Get you over to the specialist and see what's And I'm beginning to get a wee bit worried about it,you know ? Er now. But sh er well distalgesics Are you ne are you ne are you need are you al you alright? Aye. my voice. Excuse me. You're not needing the pink ones? What? The wee pink The wee pink ones No I've still got cos I've only taken diamond shaped ones. Still got some of them? Is it two a day? Two a day. That's right. Aye. Still got some of them. Still got some of them. Right, and the dist the distalgesic? Getting restless? Are you? So where is that I'll go Doctor for my hair? Er, I can make it I can make it Monklands, or Strathclyde? Strathclyde's nearer Is that handier for you? Aye. Oh. Er it's immaterial, I mean it's just a matter of putting a different address on the letter. Aye. I mean it's just I wouldn't like it to go any No, oh no. No no. to go any further. ta-ta. Ta-ta. Say bye bye. No, no, she's desperate to get away. You're desperate. Right. Right, thanks Doctor . Right. Cheerio now. Cheerio. This way. This way, look. for the benefit of these two, there's only a couple of sentences Yes. in trying to answer these questions and psychological analyses and the whole appropriate to the age of the and I quote we must not forget that but is also a law giver and educator Egyptian Pharaoh undeniably Egyptian in origin . In the Bible cannot provide and abandoned him. He was rescued by an Egyptian princess . In the normal legend they represent what is known as a family romance. This the special, almost sacred being. development continued Egyptian Pharaohs and as an adult true parents. . However,and come to the conclusion that by a name Egyptian Children of Israel. Compared to what really happened that they were liberated. There and not from below. To maintain that Moses was an Egyptian they never . In short Moses Moses revealed to that like the Egyptians each generation of Jews that gave them their character in general which is that today Well done Andrea, excellent. A difficult book in some ways, did you find it difficult? Yeah, I Yeah. Yes. Absolutely. Well I thought you gave a very clear and er convincing account of it despite that so congratulations, well done, that was excellent. Erm, well what does everyone else think? Moses and Monarchism is not one of those books of Freud as I expect you to read for this course, I mean I expect you to read things like Civilization's Discontents and so on because they're, they're kind of central and they're not very large books, they're clearly er focused on our subject but erm it would be I think a little bit unreasonable for me to expect you to read this one, although, er I'd quite like you to I mean some ways erm it's a fascinating book, erm my guess is if it, if you don't hate it, you'd probably quite like it. There's a number of students who said they started to read it and couldn't put it down. Bit like a detective story in some ways. But erm, what er, what are you to make of it? Erm, I'd like to say Mm. Mm. Well could you, could you expand on that, cos you're not saying that they, it's actually passed from people's D N A? No, I'm not saying that No so explain how it works Mike. Er, well,it seemed as though it and er ideology of change rather than industrial relations, erm revolution And so the relevance of that to what Andrea was telling us about is what? Erm, Yes. Yes. Well that's it, that, that's a very good starting point because one point that Freud er makes in the book and Andrea er alluded to but is, is very important in fact he calls it, there's a little sub-section of the book called the Analogy and this is the erm analogy that Freud is gonna use for his study of Moseism the analogy he gives, er can you remember it Andrea? Recall exactly what it is? Well let, let, let, let me tell you, I don't want to put you on the spot, the, the, the analogy is of er the typical pattern of development of a neurosis, which Freud says is a trauma that happens often in infancy. This is then forgotten or repressed when it seems to have vanished altogether and there's a third period, what Freud calls the return of the repressed when the initial trauma comes back in the form of symptoms and er ideally in the form of an analysis that finally brings it to the surface of consciousness and dissolves it, and this is a typical pattern. Er, it's certainly what happened to me I must admit in fact it's certainly been the pattern of my life and er I'm not surprised what thought, Freud thought was a kind of typical er typical pattern. Now what Mike is talking about is the kind of historical parallel to this and Freud mentions a number of examples. Mike has given us one which is I think an excellent one. The examples that Freud talks about are for example er, the Trojan War in early Greek history. We know that the Trojan War, you know erm, what's described in the Iliad and the Odyssey to the kiddies and er all these Greek and Greek heroes, we know that war actually happened, but it happened an awful long time before these poems were written and er Freud's view is that what happens in a culture is there's some initial traumatic event like the French Revolution or Trojan War, there's a period of latency during which it seems to be forgotten about and nothing very much happens anyway, and then at a later stage it comes back again, there's a return of a repressed and er Freud erm Freud quotes one or two other examples, er of the same kind of thing and Mike's example is a very good one albeit er perhaps it's good because it's so recent, so the point you're making Mike is that are you saying that Freud's analogy is, is credible where French history and even industrial relations is concerned that there was a trauma, the Revolution of seventeen eighty nine, there were latency periods and then this kept coming back from the repressed time and time again? Yeah. Yeah. Right. Apparently they even put the barricade in the same place Oh did they? Right. Is er, is Freud saying, is he just looking at this and saying I, I see a pattern here? Yes Or is he saying, you know is he saying this is how I found religions to thrive, you know or He's certainly saying I find a pattern here because he's using it, as his pattern to understand and I only just said at the beginning what the, makes the Jews Jewish, what gave them their national character and their, their ethnic identity. He's certainly saying there's a pattern there er what was the second? Well, is, is he saying that these are the, these are the things that our religion needs in order to, to be a strong religion, I mean it, she said you know something that I found interesting was what Maska Reece has said about erm the ability of the minority to, to sort of overcome repression Yes erm, I read a book this summer er by Kurt Vonnegut called Cat's Cradle and in the book erm there's this, there's this er country and the country has outlawed this certain religion Mm. erm called Bocodonism and it turns out, find out later in the book that the reason they outlawed this is because of the guy Bocodon who was, who originated the religion had made a deal with the head of the state of the country that he would outlaw it, so that's how the religion thrived, because it was outlawed Yes, I see yeah see and he started up that way and, and the religion was the most popular thing in the country, but all the people were outlaws. I see. And er that's how the religion thrived Right because they were all repressed but they were fighting against this repression and it was coming out, you know. Yes. Erm and er I was wondering if Freud did that or if that's what Freud was saying, that, that, that religion by nature must be repressed or that a minority as the nature of minority is, is er it works harder when it's repressed or it can become stronger. No he's not saying that, he's not going that far because he's not talking about all religions. We saw earlier didn't we when we talked about, about future who did that? Sorry, you did that, right, well think back to what you said about future what Freud said the future . Right now there are plenty of religions that don't show this er pattern of trauma, repression and latency of return of the repressed, they, they just kind of go on from er from time immemorial, erm and there are plenty of examples of that. I think Freud would say though however that these are more like the th the was talking about religion,now clearly if something is a outlawing it isn't gonna make much difference to it, or if anything it's, it's just gonna make it er, er make it more difficult, but there are certain types of religion and Judaism is one of them where th this very pattern you're talking about did occur and here Freud is er probably standing on, on firm ground, for reasons which I'll explain in my lectures I don't wanna take up too much time, but I have done a bit of research on this myself and as you will see, erm there's, there are good reasons for thinking that Freud was certainly right about some of those and we certainly know that a monotheistic and, and an absolutely rigidly monotheistic religion appeared in Ancient Egypt as erm Andrea said, just before erm the er reign of this heretic er heretic, heretic pharaoh one of whose er near descendants, I forget how he was related now, erm was originally called Tutamkhatan and then was forced to change his name to Tutankhamen and he was dug up by Howard Carter in nineteen twenty two or something er and er the Tutankhamen is called Tutankhamen and not Tutamkhatan is that there was a religious . The Akhenaten is interesting because he was the first Ayatollah of history as far as we know. He, he, he started the of religious intolerance that still lives on today and causes Salman Rushdie to live in fear of his life. Erm, the, the idea God Akhenaten was his prophet and in fact claimed to be the son of God his son and er all other religions were persecuted and er, so what in Ancient Egypt was that the traditional polytheism which was rampant was persecuted by there was only one god and as Andrea says, even proscribe the word gods in, in the plural, you know the, you know the er feminist thought police would try and rule out certain words you're not allowed to use like chairman which has become chairperson or something like that well Akhenaten took it even further and it was an offence punishable by death to even say the word gods and if you visit Ancient Egypt and walk around the ruins, you will occasionally know they were fond of putting these hieroglyphic erm er inscriptions over everything. And here and there you will see hieroglyphs have been erased, if somebody's got a chisel and there's a, just a raise a whole block of hieroglyphs, er just there and then and almost always that is Akhenaten's workmen did it and the hieroglyphs they were erasing was the plural er gods. You could use the word god but not the word they had to be suppressed. So Akhenaten founded this intolerant monotheistic er religion as with kind of Ayatollah and er suppressed the th the, the traditional polytheistic . We, we now know this is a matter of historical fact there was a counter-revolution. Akhenaten either died or was murdered, we're not, we don't know, we don't know how er he was a very peculiar man as I'll explain in the lectures er physically, very strange probably as a result of inbreeding and erm the old religion re-established itself there was never a return to monotheistic sun worship, but er all its hypothesis is that, that since we know the exodus occurred round about this time and since we know that Judaism too is a religion of a single-minded monotheist you know I'm the law by God I shall have no other gods before me, it says in the Bible full stop. Erm Freud's hypothesis is that this religion left Egypt because of the persecution, Moses was one of Akhenaten's followers who went out into the desert, erm here as I'll explain in the lectures er some of my own research opens up a new angle on this that Freud didn't know about and why they went out into the desert, why they picked up these er Hebrew erm er immigrants who were living on the fringes of the Egyptian Empire. I'll explain that in the lecture. But anyway the idea is that er the religion was, was suppressed in Ancient Egypt and because it was suppressed there, the people migrators went to the Promised Land, when they found the Promised Land there they stopped and founded a new, a new religious state, which of course is still with us. I mean now we're still, you know we're still er er if Freud did write about this, we're still living with, with the consequences of this. In the, in the current Middle East erm so this pattern certainly applies to Judaism, not to all religions, he's not saying that all religions have to undergo persecution in order to as it were flourish, but some religions do and perhaps the characteristic Judaism or at least this kind of monotheism is these kind of religions tend to be intolerant and single-mindedly, tend to say that we know the truth, everybody else is wrong and consequently they tend to persecute others and get persecuted and this leads to these periods of suppression, but there's a tendency for this kind of return of repress just as Mike was saying, his very brilliant analogy he suggested the French Revolution when the students put the barricade up in the same place or so the erm Freud's idea is that the things that happened in that first traumatic period back in Ancient Egypt and for example erm he said this is why the modern erm Jews insist on circumcision because the Ancient Egyptians did and this is, this is correct. We know that the Ancient Egyptians er did insist on circumcision er they were racially very erm erm er very prejudiced the Ancient Egyptians cos they were living at the peak of cultural time and regarded all other races as inferior to them and one of the main er stigmas in inferiority was erm not being circumcised and Ancient Egyptians regarded people who weren't circumcised as filthy and erm they er they had this tremendous er racial pride in themselves as the circumcised people, and this of course has passed on into Judaism and even to Islamic faith. Islam er pursues this er strange habit of mutilating the genitals of little boys. I don't think they can get away with it with little girls but they get away with it with little boys. Well it is genital mutilation isn't it? Would, would, would would, but, I mean I'm quite in favour of people having their genitals mutilated as adults, once they're over eighteen, they go to hospital and sign a consent form and have it done as long as they pay for it themselves, but to do it to newborn children strikes me as outrageous. I this is just the voice of reason. You can draw your own conclusions about me. Er, Mike? Do you, do you think there's a valid parallel here then with say Judaism? A valid parallel w w would you say using your, substituting your analogy with the French Revolution? Erm well I mean how does it, how does it work psychologically? If, if, if you're right about this could you explain the psychological mechanism that makes these kinds of returns of the repressed happen, I mean why did the Fre why did the French students feel they had to recreate the revolution? It was symbolic Why should they want to be heard in a traditional way, you'd think students having a revolution will want everything make a kind of clean clean break wouldn't they? I mean why do people have to kind of, if, if, if we accept for a minute that there's something in this analogy, this model that Freud is talking about, why do people have this compulsive need to repeat like this, why do they have to repeat history? Mm, but Mike that it wasn't new, how do you explain that Kirsty? Well Well, I, I can't tell you, but I'm sure that er Mm, Right. Rather than it actually Yes. That, that's a sensible kind of conclusion to draw and perhaps this would meet Kirsty's point as well, because the what you might be tempted to say is look erm, in our cultures we have, we have absorbed from our cultures ways of seeing the world, bits about history and things restructure our thoughts and even when we try and do something new, I'd say let's have a revolution everybody, put up your barricades, you know,actually we had some great fun in the sixties with that erm the, when this happens there's a tendency to nevertheless do it in the traditional way, in other words although obviously the sixty eight revolution was about a completely different issue than the seventeen ninety eight revolution, it was very much later in history. Nevertheless the form of it was the same, there was a, would you buy that one Kirsty that there was a Yes. a kind of cultural tradition in the Yes, yes I mean unconsciously they will happen Yes. erm, but are shown that Yes, yes. Yes, so would you accept that Mary-Jane, that, that people may consciously er think for example oh no we're, we're, we're, we're students we're having a revolution and this is new but unconsciously they might be following some deep historical precedent? Yes. Aware that I'm sure they were aware Well another revolution I mean that the fight that none, none of these things have really come to a full success, yeah, so nobody looks at them and says well we need no more revolutions because they'll all work. So everyone thinks that being the is being one that's really gonna change the world, yeah and I think that the pattern he's talking about it's just resurfacing and resurfacing and resurfacing. I mean to take another example er and this illustrates Mary-Jane's point about it, it can be conscious,is isn't there a tendency wouldn't you say John for Clinton to see himself as Kennedy returned? Yeah. Yeah I think that what Clinton did was to play on that to get elected and you know he wanted people to see him as that, but Yeah I think that now he's in office and this is why I've started to dislike him a little more since he's been you know inaugurated even. I think he thinks he's better, I really do Yeah I think he thinks Yeah okay now I'm here and I am not only gonna be I mean now people Yeah I am Kennedy Much better than Kennedy. Right, he probably does think that, but isn't it interesting er doesn't this illustrate the point we've been making that he felt he needed to have a play that, strung that historical cord as it were. Mm. I, I definitely, I definitely think that's a pattern, you know leading up I, I think this is a continuing thing but that, that in the end these people always think that they're gonna take one step further. Mm. And that's what keeps, that's what keeps it going. Mm. Yeah. So perhaps in some ways er we would deduce from this that the the motive of the revolutionaries in sixty eight was in perhaps to some extent to complete what had been started in seventeen eighty nine but not finished and somebody would, Clinton presumably he would say I'm gonna complete the programme that John F Kennedy started, but was unable to finish because the tragic way in which his career was ended. Erm, so the, that that seems to be getting towards something that Freud is saying, another aspe aspect of this which is the compulsive aspect, the feeling that you gotta keep doing it. Presumably one reason why people doing something is they didn't do it enough the first time, or they didn't do it properly, or they didn't do it successfully and therefore they've gotta keep doing it. Is, is that possible? this father figure Mm. I mean it's like the father is condoning what they're doing. Yes, and, and sometimes of course this is, this, this becomes a conscious rationalization for what people are doing aren't they? I mean presumably erm when erm er you know when er when people fight religious crusades, very often they see themselves as er justified by a religious precedence of the past by the great prophets of the past or, or, or great leaders who did similar things and er they, they consciously justify what they're doing don't they by saying well you know we're er we're, we're doing, fighting this crusade or, or carrying out this policy er and these are the historical precedences. And they quote those precedences as a justification for what they're doing and of course that then, then the whole kind of compulsive repetition thing becomes very very conscious because now people are saying you know, we're doing this er because of historical precedence, because of erm and tradition. So I think that that's, that that's absolutely true. Of course to go back to something I think Kirsty or somebody said, erm this could also happen un unconsciously couldn't it? I mean I was interested a a a another very interesting point you made Mike at the beginning, you said that is there, had there been studies that show the standards of French industrial relations did you say that, that this has kind of become a pattern for industrial relations conflict in France. No, I made Yeah, right. say that this has everybody out Because that implies that this kind of thing then spreads to other areas of life, I mean it, after all the revolution of seventeen ninety eight didn't have anything to do with erm industrial relations as such, I mean it was er it was really about the monarchy, the state and er people starving and all that stuff, but the this introduces the interesting idea that once you've got a kind of pattern in the culture to something, it can then reappear in other areas. Erm, it, what it struck me as is a parallel with Freud's idea of transference, you know that once something happens in the, in the traumatic period in a, in a childhood, there's then a tendency to transference to occur later in life, we recreate later in relationships to er the model of the early one and er it struck me that what you said about French industrial relations sounded a bit like transference in erm in the psychoanalysis the idea that i i it spills out as it were from the initial which might have been saved er within the family to other relationships i in later life that people have with their superiors at work or something I mean you can see this actually sometimes you know that people have relationships with their superiors which are clearly erm based on erm their relationships with their parents and they see the,th their boss as a parental figure and the employee sees themselves as er as, as, as a kind of erm child and it shows itself sometimes in quite er quite unmistakable ways. Kirsty? Yeah yes, yes, yes. I told my husband that he had this problem. Oh really? Yes, absolutely Yeah never is good enough and he expects too much Yes, it, it's not uncommon. but can I ask something else erm Yes obviously this erm theory of Freud's er is not acceptable Jews. I would like to find out how a Jewish Yes, I mean they haven't been. Once in one of these classes one year I had a Jewish student got up and got very upset during such a class as this and stomped out and then slammed the door er which I was rather sorry about because erm I think he was being a little bit erm too sensitive because the person who was giving the paper said anything anyway erm, but warrant that, but he was just offended of the idea that anybody could suggest that Moses wasn't Jewish, and of course Well he was a young Oh they did, yes. This another one of the black books, along with Woodrow Wilson. This was one of the er this th this is one of the black books and one of the problems with this has been I think that a lot of psychoanalysts er have been Jewish of course and I think they regard as kind of heresy or some kind of disloyalty to suggest that Moses erm wasn't Jewish. I, I don't understand how that though. I mean, you know,ho how does that relate to his pattern that he's talking about? Well it, it, it, it doesn't relate to a pattern erm to be an analogy. What it relates to is the specific historical reconstruction it. You see, you could say that this of Freud's operates on two levels. On one level there's this analogy, this pattern about history that we've been talking about but er is Freud's attempt to explain Jewish er culture in terms of a, of a general pattern of history, of course there are many other examples and Mike has suggested a brilliant one here. On another level, on a completely different level the book is about Freud's attempt in my erm in the second edition of I used the analogy of a detective story like Sherlock Holmes or something, or something er i i it, it's an attempt by Freud to reconstruct specific historical events that may or may not have happened, using a kind of detective's method because Freud picks up tiny little clues like Moses' name, the fact that he doesn't appear to be able to speak the language in the Bible, he always speaks through an interpreter, and in the Bible this, this is explained away by saying . Freud's he just couldn't speak Hebrew, he could only speak in Egyptian and so on and so on. So it's an attempt on, on, on the second level to minutely reconstructing historical, the lost, the truest but what really happened and in that on that level, it's important for Freud to establish that Moses was not Jewish but Egyptian, because this gives him the link with Egyptian monarchism and the events of the exodus and explains it as well. It also explains erm his view why the Jews then murdered Moses rebelled against them, he wasn't one of them anyway. He imposed this religion on them which they didn't want and Freud thinks this explains a lot of things like the story of the golden carving, how Moses comes down down from the mountain and er and so on. So that level it, it's really it's the detail level, it's not a part of a fundamental pattern. Moses, Moses being a different nationality isn't a part of the it's a, it's a historical detail. But it still seems like I mean in the, in the story, he was raised as a, as an Egyptian Yeah. and, and so he as an Egyptian Right you know, so the rebellion against him could just as easily have been because he was raised as an Egyptian or that, that the, you know the between monarchism from the past could also have been. I'm not arguing No, no but I don't see the real relevance and I think one of the reasons that erm I mean I, I hear it and I know that Freud was very critical of religion and I, I, I think for some very good reasons, Mm erm but I also think, I also find him to be exceedingly critical of the figures that he looks at just like he was very critical of Woodrow Wilson. Yes. Because he, he almost has this personal sort of he sort of a personal vendetta against them in some ways Mm. you know and, and not only goes without the psychoanalyse, at least this is the sense I get not only about psychoanalyse, but also to sort of knocked out and, and er maybe that's, maybe that's trying to do and that was the point I also haven't read the book so I don't know. No. Well I don't, yes I don't think in the book erm I mean did you get that impression Andrea? Get some kind of personal animosity against Moses? No, it's more sort of Yes. how it really occurred Yes, I, yes I think Andrea's put her finger on it. The impression you get in the book is not that Freud had erm some animosity against Moses the way he had against Woodrow Wilson, he was quite open about it in the Woodrow Wilson book, but that Freud is an intelligent erm believer in science, who nevertheless takes religion very seriously because of its psychological truth. Freud, Freud's, you know Freud said that everything that religion says is true, but it's psychologically true it's not factually true, it's not you know true at the reality true psychological . So he took religion terribly seriously, but he believed in science and he looked at the Bible and said well what does this really mean? What do these myths about Moses who is the key figure in Judaism, what do these myths really tell us? And so what he's trying to do is to as Andrea says erm uncover the truth, get to the, get to what really happened as it were, under the layers of myth and distortion could have been introduced in the Bible story, and as I said if you read the book erm and it is quite fascinating in many ways, it is a bit like a detective story because what Freud does is he tries to get to the truth by analyzing the, the actual texts and the texts contains discrepancies and anybody who's ever tried to erm edit a book, learns this to their cost actually, but er you find no matter how carefully you change things, there's usually things you miss, little discrepancies that give away how it was the first time and er Freud's view is this, this has happened very much to the Bible, it's been so heavily edited and re-written and later the the various editings show and if you read it very critically, you can begin to see perhaps the underlying pattern er coming through and erm just as you can tell for instance by reading Genesis, that it's a of two accounts because there are two stories, the first story is Chapter One of Genesis, then in Chapter Three or something there's a second story repeats it with variations. So from that biblical scores have concluded, the book that we know as Genesis was originally two accounts that were pushed together but not very expert actually, because you can still see the join,an and Freud's view about the Moses there are numerous discrepancies and numerous joins and if you take it all apart and say what is it, what does it make up, his conclusion is that erm Moses was, was not Egyptian, sorry Moses was not er erm no not, not a Hebrew but Egyptian. Erm I would have thought this was welcome news in the modern world actually when you know all these people in the Middle East have got to live together. I would have thought this was rather an enlightening view to take, but Semites erm, but there we are. A a as you and various other people likely said erm a lot of people regarded it as a kind of act of erm racial er disloyalty I'm not bothered about what race I am, I'm just bothered about the truth, and the truth is that I think erm Moses was not Jewish well who's to know, who's to know erm as I said it's a fascinating book and if, if you like that kind of detective story approach to history, you, you might, you might enjoy reading it, erm there are,i it raises a lot of other issues, many of which I'll talk about in the, in the lectures, so I, I won't waste time say repeating it all here. Who er who haven't we heard from. Emma, you've been sitting there very quietly and judiciously. Have you got any comments to make about this? Yeah, that's right But you see what Freud, what Freud fastens on there and is something that only a psychoanalyst could do, is, is that there's a discrepancy in the story. Well what's the discrepancy? discrepancy The The prelude to this was set by another psychoanalyst called Otto Rank one of Freud's er early followers who had published a book called the Myth of the Birth of the Hero and in this book what Rank did was to trawl through world folklore and literature, from myths of heroes, and of course there are a lot of those books, and dozens and dozens of them and what he does in the book is he distils all these dozens and dozens of myths and he finds that there's a common pattern emerges and it's, it's pretty stereotypical actually and the common pattern is the hero is born of royal or divine parents, the hero for some reason or other that loses his parents or is cast out by them or is er exposed in some way, erm the hero is often threatened by some outside force and then rescued by er humble people. The humble people bring up the hero as their own child, eventually the hero realizes through a dream, through a prophecy, a visitation or something that he is not the child of his humble parents, but the find out who his real parents were, and then returns and arduous struggles and eventually gains his rightful place. There are many many examples attached to Jesus. Okay, Jesus is the Son of God, poor old Joseph is just a kind of surrogate father erm, you know like a test-tube baby father actually test tube er is er is like you know er a complete surrogate father er for God erm they're threatened by Herod so they have to flee to Egypt and er then they come back and eventually Jesus realizes who he is and after a long struggle with good and evil, temptation at the desert, crucifixion and God knows what, erm off he goes back to you know, sitting up there on the right hand of God saying you know I'm the Son of God which he is, so Oedipus, Oedipus is expelled by his parents, there's a prophecy he will murder his father and marry his mother, so they get rid of him, but he doesn't die, he gets found by a shepherd, brought up by a shepherd. You all know what happens later. Er, there are lots and lots and lots of stories. An Indian, Indian myth made dozens of them . It's very very . So concluded that this was a common pattern, however there is one exception. The only exception is Moses and in Moses as Kirsty says, the story seems the wrong way round. Is it Moses . The parents are humble Jewish erm immigrants in Egypt, the adoptive parents of the Egyptian royal families, Emma reminds us the daughter of Pharaoh finds Moses floating in the bulrushes. Now Freud says if this myth, this can't be the original myth because the original myth has as Andrea pointed out to us very clearly in her paper is the family romance bit that a lot of people or most people have. Many people can, can remember it that in their youth they saw their when they're their early childhood they saw their parents were very special people the parents. Later of course as up this early infantile attitude where you idolize your parents becomes replaced by a more rational and so on, but Freud's finding was that this early attitude in childhood doesn't get er abolished, it just gets repressed, it's forced out of conscious because you true and of course things that are not true have to be removed consciousness, but they cannot be erased, so they're forced into the unconscious and they live in the unconscious and they feed myths like the Myth of the Birth of the Hero and all of us in our er erm in our er conscious see the hero as a, as a parental figure that reflects the family romance, the idea that once we were, we were a special child with very special parents. So the point of conclusion is if the myth is different in the Bible then the likely explanation is that it was tampered with, but that the scribes and the people who wrote the Bible altered the and they changed it round why should they change this myth? Of course the answer is changing the myth would have made Moses Hebrew and not Egyptian, because if Moses had been the daughter of Pharaoh he would had to been Egyptian and that the Hebrews couldn't tolerate because at a later stage their religion became strongly ethnic and racially divided, you really got to be born Jewish to be Jewish, so they couldn't tolerate their, their founding fathers of not being anything but Jewish, so they altered it, they changed the records and they falsified the myth, but they left this glaring inconsistency in it, so the myth is no longer it's er rewritten and this is one of the little bits of evidence and now of course erm if you don't take psychoanalyst insights into the family romance seriously, that may not cut much ice for you, but if you erm appreciate the force of these unconscious stereotypes in creating this like this, it's cert it's a quite potent piece of evidence because you think well why should the, the Bible change the myth, why can't it just put up with the normal myth. It's just one, one of those many piec pieces of evidence you know so that the Freud you know like the great detective you know uses all these little insignificant facts and finally puts them all together and draws everybody together you know in the drawing room and says I will now reveal the murderer, you know Moses was not an Egyptian, sorry Moses was not a Jew he was an Egyptian. Well, Well, yes I mean he says yes, yes he does say about that, he says that he has no doubt that there was a historical and said there were two Moses. Apparently as you know I mean biblical criticism is a very and well people have devoted their whole lives to it, but apparently there is a, a school o of, quite a large school I think o of biblical critical that claims that there are actually two Moses and not one. The two figures have been kind of squelched together just as in, in Exodus there are two, sorry in erm in er Genesis there are two er Garden of Eden stories so they claim there are two Moses figures who have been erm as it were compounded together, but both of them says Freud were powerful religious leaders and they probably did give their followers moral principles, perhaps not exactly as we have but something very like it and so Freud is not sceptical about that. He believes there was a man Moses, he believes he did exist though actually probably two of them. He does believe they were powerful leaders and that to some extent the Bible erm shows a true like for example Freud says that there are some in the like Moses' temper, and he loses his temper, he murders an Egyptian Freud. That could well be a bit of verisimilitude, it may well be the original man Moses was a powerful man with a powerful temper and perhaps this was come down to us er as, as a bit of historical truth, but erm nevertheless the whole figure of Moses and his laws by later generations and this, this th what Freud is trying to do is to erm undo this rewriting the process again truth. You can still see it going on today and it still happens doesn't it like the Good News Bible if you look at that, I mean this a version of the Bible rewritten, presumably to tell people good news I don't know, I've never, never read it but I presume that that's what the Good News Bible does and we now have countless bibles, where, where, where, where God is, God is female erm my guess is supposing that were the only Bible we had a feminist bible were no other bible and everybody for hundreds of years believed it, my guess is that in the future literary critics and bible critics could study that very carefully and I bet you somewhere there you'll find internal evidence to show that once God had been male and had his gender changed, I'm quite sure of it because edit a whole book like the Bible and completely eliminate all the evidence that God was once male would be a very difficult here, here and there you need little bits of evidence and, and again there's lots of others I'll mention in the lecture like God's name. In the Bible God has two names, er Yarway Anno Domini and er Freud says that Domini could be a corruption of and er there is some evidence that the two words are the same and that the original name of God was and that God was the sun and again there is evidence of sun worship er in the Bible. Again, the editors didn't the Son of Righteousness. When Christians hear that they usually think it's spelt S O N but it isn't, it's S U N and the Sun of Righteousness er with healing in his wings, so Freud says and I believe it's actually this seen it, it's very common on Egyptian monuments it's a picture of a sun er with, with wings, with rays shining out of it. That's the Sun of Righteousness with healing in its wings. Actually the healing is not usually in the wings it's in the hands that come out from the sun and the healing is the of Ancient Egypt which meant life, spirit and er and health. So the Sun of Righteousness with healing in its wings is probably an Egyptian symbol so Freud . Again there's a lot of other evidence that Freud doesn't mention and he could have done like the Ark. Er if you read the accounts of the Ark it looks very like an Egyptian sarcophagus. There are four angels at the corners with outstretched wings. This is a typical pattern of an Egyptian sarcophagus. I personally think the Ark was Moses' sarcophagus and they carried it erm to the Promised Land probably with the embalmed body of Moses in it. That's what Harrison Ford should have discovered! And when they opened the Ark they should have discovered Moses in it but they didn't because it was and there we are. That'll teach you. Sorry saddened spirits. the point Yeah. That in fact Right, oh yes it's got a, a lot of discrepancies, but the point is that the discrepancies it has are explicable in terms of what the discrepancies were trying to hide and correct and to that extent it's a bit like psychoanalysing an individual patient. When you analyze their conscious,, you discover that all the changes and the rewritings level after a tendentious purpose to hide certain things and to keep certain things in the repressed and the same is true o of the Bible, in other words all these rewritings and were not just random, they were often motivated by a desire to hide or change certain things. In other words they, they show a definite pattern and you can determine what that pattern was. Well yes Well for example one of the things, one of the consistent kinds of changes that seems to have occurred is an attempt to deny polytheism, but there are lots of places in the Bible where it hasn't been consistent and where God on occasions speaks in the Bible erm as if other gods could exist, like I, I, I'm the Lord, I'm a jealous god. Why should he be jealous if there are no gods to be jealous of? There are lots of bits of evidence that suggest that the Bible has been consistently rewritten to make it more monotheistic than it really was in the beginning. In the beginning, okay believed in and or whatever you wanna call it, but it also believed in other gods as well, except he was the chief god, he was number one god as it were and he's the one you got to follow. These other gods exist, but they're the wrong gods. There was a tendency says Freud to eliminate all the wrong gods and say there is only one god but the whole point . That of course is exactly what Akhenaten tried to do at the beginning another example the return of the repressed its original religious intolerance. Well it's an interesting thesis. As I said I'll be having quite a lot to say about in the lectures, so we'll just regard this class as a kind of prelude to that. Er Andrea, er it's gone eleven I mustn't detain you any longer. Congratulations on excellent paper, first class er well done. Next week are hearing from Simone who isn't here. Now folks if you see Simone remind her. Anybody know Simone anthropologists? Okay Yes. Yeah let me tell you actually yeah the following week. Oh okay. Two weeks today okay. Great opportunity to pass on genes effortlessly, though the female has a limited number of eggs which has specific requirements for survival and therefore temporar temporarily stalls her reproductive success. So from the moment of concep conception because females are biologically out-of-gear now have a much higher potentially accepted success. Even if relative initial differences in intentionally productive success they have the groundwork for different male and female receptive strategies. Now first the receptive strategy for males. For males the characteristic meaning of strategy is the continuous pattern of low or no . Because of high potential reproductive success and their effort to earn the parental care for seeking additional mates. internal behaviour in in most species. Another reason for low in males is the . In species where fertilization is internal, they are also much less pertinent with genetic relationship of offspring because investing in unrelated offsprings one's . Furthermore, males minimize vest investment in attempt to their potential for reproduct for a high reproductive success. This takes a great deal of effort because simply having the potential for a greater reproductive success in females does not necessarily mean that they actual have ha actually have greater reproductive success. This is because males vary greatly among themselves in success. Such males have large numbers of offspring while others might have none at all. Erm so we still that in general erm males have potential for greater reprodu reproductive success than females, but erm this, this doesn't actually, they don't always er actualize their potential because erm some do there's a great difference among males and erm just some of them will have great er large numbers of offspring, whereas other males might not have any at all. Erm for the females the variance in reproductive success is of the, the differences in the female condition such as the ability to invest in offspring, erm or food producing , but among the males the variation in reproductive success are a function of male competition and female shortage. Males compete with each other for females and for ever more are subject to females for particular members are not the reproductive strategy for females. For females mating strategy differs due to and reproductive success of biological specialization and parental care, such as the gestation . Consequently females are expected to select mates most capable of investing resources in their offspring. Possible strategies include the domestic strategy where the female recognizes domestic qualities in males in advance and therefore benefits herself by choosing a male with qualities. An alternative strategy is the where the female is resigned to getting no help from the mate and concentrating rather on selecting a mate with the best genes and in this case . So as a result of combining both of these strategies the differing male and female strategies Come in. Hi, how you doing? erm you end up with four different er types of er reproductive strategies which are of monogamy, polygyny, polygamy and polyandry and the first one monogamy is when you have one male and female and er this minimizes the differences in reproductive success and the way it does that is because erm it, it minimizes the difference between the sexes because monogamy takes the limitations of the male erm to reproduce only with the one female so the male to female ratio of reproductive success the same in monogamy, and er what happens to that is this little in er more equal towards their parental investment . Er the second polygyny where you have one male and then females and here reproductive success erm meaning that there's a large again you'll have the males who'll have the large reproductive success than males who have none at all and erm of course often differences between male and female because the male has and the male has opportunities to erm try to control success rate the female biological and er consequently with this kind of system from female choice and male competition and er are about eighty percent and er polygamy is when you have many males and many females and er is also and er I would assume it's kind of like males have opportunities . But again the result of that system the main difference with that would be you know if they had different erm partners, whereas other one partner. Erm polyandry's the last type of example, he has one erm many males and one female and with this system the differences between the sexes is the first and er males that do their larger parental investment females and it's a very rare . Now on the other side of parental investment is desertion. The other alternatives of parental investment is desertion. When investing offspring, when investing offspring results in increased males stay together, but if it is possible to reach by deserting a partner, then the individual is likely to be erm you can't decide on based on potential opportunities made parental investment. because of the those offspring can survive without further parental investment and if parental investment is therefore . The decision based on a number of current offspring, larger numbers can be greater benefited with and therefore it's more likely that if the parent had a lot of er offspring then he would continue with the investment and erm the conclusion from now is that males have a greater reproductive success, therefore they are more likely to desert because they can erm and erm this and erm the basic argument of this is one parent can get away with investing less share of erm resources they're likely to spend more er then they're to do it, so in other words erm if, if one of the, of the two is being to get away with having the other they can go out to er pursue their own and therefore erm each partner force the other to invest more. Okay that's basically erm I have to say. I have a few questions of my own erm in, in doing it and erm was er when you say that, that males had males parental investment erm I was wondering how they, how can a male when the male decides to desert how can they be certain if the female is going to take care of the offspring, because I was wondering if erm if probability like the based by their genes it doesn't matter if one female doesn't take care of the offspring because they produce more offspring I think that would depend on the species wouldn't it and the, and the local conditions, for example in that erm case I mentioned in yesterday's lecture monogamous birds with long breeding groups where you get desertion. What seems to happen there is the bird that's deserted has to stay with the existing family because if he or she erm deserts, those chicks will, will, will die, so er it's what is sometimes called the Concorde fallacy that if you put a lot of resources into something, you've gotta see it through, because if you pull out just before the end you can lose everything, whereas i if, if you stay on even if you know it's a failure, erm at least you may get something out of it, so the, in that case wi with monogamous birds the parent that's deserted the one that's left may have to stay, because if they desert then they can have no reproductive success whatsoever whereas at least if they stay they get something. Erm in fact a similar effect happens, I'll be mentioning this in the lecture but let me just mention it now. A similar thing can happen with so-called piracy in fish. Erm one of the problems fish have on this is that they lay their eggs in gravel or something like that and where males have their own nest sometimes another male comes along and er takes it over, hijacks it piracy and interestingly enough what happens in those situations a pirate male will come in, displace the existing male from his nest and fertilize a few eggs and then buzz off. The resident male who was displaced then comes back and looks after all the eggs, including those of the pirate and the reason he does it presumably in the first place he can't distinguish which eggs he's fertilized and those fertilized by the pirate and secondly, he knows he's fertilized some of the eggs and therefore it pays him to stay and look after all of them. So erm in other words i it wou would depend on the circumstances on how much has already been invested. In the case of human beings of course you have to notice that men seem to have an advantage because as I think I mention i in the lectures, it's perfectly possible, you see this happening in our own society which is supposed to be monogamous, perfectly possible for a man to get married, raise a family and then in his forties to desert his wife and raise a second family. Much more difficult for a woman because by the time a woman's got into her forties, her child rearing erm career is usually rather short and even if she wants to continue, it becomes much more hazardous for her and for her offspring, so er in, in the case of erm modern societies with erm monogamy bu but divorce as we have, you can't help thinking that to some extent the, the odds are, are loaded in the favour of men as it were in terms of their reproductive success. It's paradoxical because often divorce law reforms thought of as favouring women and in circumspect that allows women to get away from an unreasonable husband and that kind of thing, it's certainly true, but at the same time you have to notice that in terms of reproductive success it may benefit more er men more . Okay, now so I think what one may have to say it depends on the species and the circumstance. Does that answer your question? We can come back to this, I mean have you got any others? Yeah, erm modern when in choosing a mate and er connection with that because with the assumption that males generally don't give any parental investment what really benefit them to you know biologically can, can support the offspring themselves short period of time why can't they then go you know to have their own I mean Right, right Yes, I mean you put your finger on an important problem here that we need to discuss and that is that if you concentrate on human beings in general, and this is true on our own society but I, I think it's true of just about all societies and it's emphatically true of primal hunting adult societies then men do make a lot of parental investment don't they? I mean you think about primal hunting adults like the bushmen or the Australian Aborigines, the the men do the, do the hunting for erm for meat and women do the, do the gathering for and the point is that er meat is very nutritious and it's an important part of their diet and men go hunting and they come back and they share food with their wives and their relatives or someone and male parental investment is terribly important So women for instance if you ask David McKnight who's a world authority on the Australian Aborigines and has spent many years living with them, say what do women look for in the traditional society, what do women look for in a husband? His answer is immediate and emphatic a good hunter, he says you know what a woman wants in a, in a husband is a man who can you know bring home the bacon literally, er it's not smoked of course, but it's fresh! But you see the point, so in our species and of course in most societies this is true men are breadwinners whether in an agricultural society or an industrial society erm you know one often feels that if you're the man in the family you earn all the money your wife spends it on most of the time erm it certainly happens to me er I spend most of my time working while my wife spends most of the time shopping but erm she certainly spends the money, but erm but the, the Well I think you know you've gotta, gotta speak up for us poor husbands sometimes erm the er but you see the point I'm making, in our species males do contribute. Now, this contribution is not direct, it's indirect in the sense that males, a male for example who is provisioning a wife who is pregnant is not directly invent investing in the offspring clearly you can't do that she has to do that, cos the offspring's inside her body, but indirectly he may be feeding his wife, protecting her and providing for her in, in a way that is absolutely critical to her reproductive success too. So it's important to notice that in many species and certainly in ours, although males need not as you say make any contribution apart from their genes in principle, in fact males are heavy investors in offspring, albeit indirectly, so that must be important mustn't it and that must But the thing is that it seems that we're a cultural the way the system is set up Yeah I mean to begin with then obviously the female livelihood they depend on that primal investment it's, it's a situation the way that that it's divided up Well presumably the reason why the men do the hunting is that they're they figure they're more aggressive and are not gonna be pregnant or incumbent to children. Well,i i i i in that sense it's logical that they're the ones that do er the hunting and I guess the way it's set up logical I think Mm but I don't see, I'm trying to make it like a genetic connection or something I mean or some kind of like you know I mean to me it's just set up Yes, yes sorry Katherine? Erm I think well the which is erm which is directly extrapolated to like what happened now Mm. and there's this thing about I mean you know that there that we may be behaving, there may be erm ways that we behave that aren't actually functional th the, the society we've got now might not actually be functional because of the technology we've got Yeah well that's the problem Yeah. I mean Yeah then but when that becomes No, oh no, certainly not, but, but I mean before we get to the prescriptive level which is quite er a, a long way down the road, at the analytic level I think, I think Anne-Marie's point is she's trying to understand erm just what the the significances of these difference in parental investment are. Er the point I was making to her was erm in her paper which er was excellent by the way, I forgot to say and I think you put it all very clearly and very nicely,y you, you very nicely set out the basic idea that the consequence and that in principle a male need contribute nothing more than his penis. Th th the point that erm we were then discussing was that in practice of course males may,m ma may contribute a lot more an and, and the question was is this er something to do with the adaptions of our species or is it just the this was the question you, you asked me wasn't it? And Katherine's point was what the system today of course is quite different than what and that is of course completely true. Erm, the, the question remains however I mean er you, this is, this is your point really to what extent other other characteristics er may erm may be part of the same erm of the same thing for example if, look at sexual dimorphism. Human beings as we know are sexually dimorphic and tha that figure seems to fit the er the, the pattern, but erm women have a lot of characteristics that are peculiar to them, like for example erm more youthful looks, women will retain more youthful looks longer than men do and it is normally regarded as important and a lot of women spend an awful lot of money in the modern society on trying to remain erm looking er looking youthful. Now why is that? Could that be for example because males with resources would want normally to acquire youthful wives, or perhaps it might in other words it could be couldn't it that if males provide resources to females that they can use for primal investment, this would then have selective effects on females who will want certain things in order to get erm the investment and one of the things they might want to do is to look youthful. I dunno it kind of figures doesn't it or not? Alex looks very sceptical. No I don't, I'm still thinking about what you said yesterday about premature ejaculation Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. and younger men Th it all fitted together did it oh I oh I see I was sort of like more light-hearted sort of er like er got plenty of money, but it's crappy pay. Oh yes, I like the joke you know er er where one women says to another how could X possibly marry him you know Yeah he, he, he's Got a nasty cough, providing disorders you know he's short and ugly an and the other lady says to her but er you should see how tall he is when he stands on his wallet. I mean Yeah and he starts premature ejaculation Erm I mean it could be or it could be the reason why er why younger not Yes, I mean it's generally true isn't it I think of all societies I can't think of any o of, of any exceptions that it normally is older males who have more resources. I think in all societies I can't It can older males that Well gonna say you know yeah There's an interesting study in the book printed by Bergahoff, Moulder and so on all those you know there's four, thing, thing and thing erm human reproductive whatever it is, it's on the reading list, of Kipsigy Payments now that's, has anybody read that? Well that's interesting the Kipsigies are er traditional people who live in Kenya and if they have , in other words er men have to pay a certain amount to the erm you know, woman if they're gonna marry her and what they did was they study the and related it to the, to the girl that was actually getting married and what they found of course was that it fits the predictions of our theory er just as you'd expect, given that the cultural things you have to allow for like, like for example in that most traditional cultures they like er women to be plump as we'll see in the, in the actually fat is critical to female fertility and er so they might not have been plump, so what they did was they simply weighed the girls and they compared their, their, their weights with, with the, with the and sure enough strong correlation the fatter the girl, the bigger the . In a way they were and they had two they had two disabled girls, there are two girls who were erm you know physically er disabled, I forget what was wrong with them I think one had a clubfoot or something an and they were almost free they weren't completely free, but they were nearly free because of their disabilities and Yeah, exactly, so if, if you look at it in terms of the Kipsigy you know system, you can clearly see that what they showed was youth and plumpness were the critical fac an an and attractiveness, if the girl was young, plump and attractive she got a high and if the girl was older erm, if she had something wrong with her or she was skinny, then the less and that's, so it's quite interesting Did they find that the older men ? Well, yes now in fact we know they have not in that study. Now that doesn't the Kipsigy was just the study of the erm you know it's a good statistical it's good hard-hat social science you know with distribution and everything it's all good stuff, erm they don't say that, where we do know this is something I have researched myself very carefully, the Australian Aborigines erm we have rich data on this and I've read an awful lot of it and I compared notes with world authorities like David McKnight and erm erm what's his name erm Shapiro authority on this, and they agree that er that's definitely what happens. In Australian Aborigines the young, the young girls go to the er the older powerful men . Of course, if you think about it the consequences of that is these guys die and when they die, those wives that they married as young girls are now middle-aged women or possibly younger, anyway past their youth, but th th they, they may not be . Certainly they're re-marriageable and these are societies where every woman is married but no spinsters, so they're redistributed. Very often they have a bit of a say in it, because you know that the young girl hasn't got, but erm interestingly enough they tend to get recycled to young men and it's the older men that get the young girls from their older male and it's younger men who get . You can sometimes get a situation that occurs where a man is married to a woman who is in fact his grandmother, this can happen. This leads to horrifying you think that if you work if you, if you think about it, in other words he has married a woman who is the mother of a wife of his father who he calls mother. I happen to think this is the key to Australian classificated kinship society very stressful . What is really going on is they are rigging a system to hide that kind of it's clearly anonymous to marry a woman who's your grandmother. Yes, in the sense that y y i it can happen and apparently sometimes does that the young man will receive a recycled wife who is in fact the mother of a daughter who has married his father and so he calls her the daughter-mother, her actual mother is his wife. I see Absolutely and this is why I think they get round this, they've solved this problem by saying okay folks, we will adopt a purely erm classificator or in other words fictitious, rigged system of kinship and we won't call there and that's what they do. What effectively, I think, I mean I've never actually sat down because it would be an enormous mistake and nobody would thank me for it, but my guess is that those enormously complex classificated can be understood as a method by which old men rig the system for their own benefit and hide this kinds of ridiculous anonymous and the anomaly basically is the young men end up with old wives When they get older Right, that's what happens you see. When they get Could it be also that erm children I mean I dunno how they, the children are reared and what sort of situation . Could it be that er evolution in sort of Aboriginal societies are more harsher than that allowed for a more experienced man to teach a young child how to live as opposed to, it, it's beneficial for Yes experience That's right. Again that, that is, is very clear and it's representing initiation rituals. Because what happens you see in these societies and Australian Aborigines are with no exceptions is that if you want a wife if you're a young man and you want a wife you first of all gotta get initiated. There's no way you will get a wife until you are initiated. In fact you won't get any sexually mature erm er woman to have er any relationship with men, unofficial or otherwise if you're not initiated because they'll just say you're a boy and, and er and er an adult woman would feel it was demeaning you know to sleep with a mere boy, she'd insist you've got to be a man and to be a man you normally got to be initiated and that normally means being circumcised. Now the, the initiations are controlled by the elder men who have all, all the wives and if you don't behave and join the club and conform to what th the crown elders expect, you won't get initiated and i if you don't unless you say you won't get any wives and the guys who are doing the initiating the initiated are the very same guys who have all the daughters. So a young man really has to get initiated and conform to what the elders expect if he's going to have any reproductive success at all and that's exactly what happens. So these guys undergo these horrifying initiation rituals to prove you know that they want to join the club band and i if they pass the initiation test then they're joined in and then they're given a wife. In many societies David McKnight tells me the man who does the circumcision who actually chops off the foreskins as it were, owes you a wife for it and he says in many of them if you give a man your foreskin then you've got a right to demand a wife. He says he knows cases where wives weren't given, and there were then very serious er conflicts broken up, because the man who didn't get the wife then thought he'd been cheated and apparently his complaint was you know er wife I give you my foreskin. Apparently they talk like this. David McKnight says this is the language they use you know. Australian Aborigines are very direct about this so they, so they do expect something back for the initiation an and it's a kind of reciprocal thing where okay, you initiate me and I'll put up with all this crap from you, but you know, you give me a wife, you've got daughters I want a wife and er if I don't get it, there's gonna be real trouble and this is how the system works. So you're quite right, the elder men have a tremendous control, not over on the over-supply of women, but also over the younger men. How can that be beneficial I know what you're saying but Well I think the answer to that is you've got to remember this kind of hunting is cooperative and cooperative hunting does rely first of all on having other men to go hunting with you which is, which is important and also or so I'm told by people like David McKnight and Warren Shapiro an awful lot depends on information, we want to know where the game is, who saw what where, what did they catch you know, was there rainfall over the so and so ranges and so on, and you need to know that information if you're gonna be an effective hunter and you need good communication with other men. Er very often Australian Aboriginal societies you meet men the corroborees at these ritual gatherings and if you're one of the club, then in the ritual they'll tell you, they'll say hey, you know, you know you know you say where did you get all these kangaroos you know oh we got them over at the so and so ranges or down at the so and so water hole that's where they all are this week, and this is very important information for man. If you're not a member of the club and you're not accepted the rituals and people don't like you, they won't tell you and as a result you won't be an effective hunter, you won't be able to support many wives even if you wanted them and if you have wives what they needed, because if a man doesn't feed his wives they, they, they all eventually get up and go, they'll say two fingers you know, you can't feed us. This is one of the things I want you to se see today and this wonderful film I was gonna show today and I hope I'll show next week, third time lucky, they actually interview the wives, the polygynous wives of of some erm erm guy in Africa, some African erm and they to them they actually ask the wives, why do you, you know why are you married to this man and they say well he feeds us, you know th that's why we're married to him, he gives us food and he's apparently got five this particular man they interviewed, three of them were active and two of them were elderly, and the three active wives are quite open about the fact that this man's a good provider and therefore they stay with him, but they, they wouldn't in the case of Australian Aborigines, they wouldn't stay if they didn't get fed and they only get fed because he's a good hunter and to be a good hunter you need to go on good terms of men and that's how it works. But of course it's, it's a very tough deal for women, I mean women in erm in a way really get the raw end of it because that to some extent they're at the mercy of the whole system, even though they can if they absolutely have to. It's not easy and where's she gonna go? You know she's gotta find someone else to go an and live with because by and large you can't survive on your own in the Australian outback certainly not if you're a woman, hardly if you're a man. So it, it's as you say it's a very tough, hard life and in order to survive, people really do need the help of other people and that's why you've really got to conform to a large extent in the society and you haven't got a lot of choice about erm you know wh what you'd like to especially if you're, if you're young and female and not much men not if you want to get any wives that is. So the erm but as, but as Katherine reminds us, I mean if, if that's the kind of life our emotional parameters are my, my guess is that that, is that that's probably the truth, certainly a persuasive argument . Then when you look at the other range of human societies, then you have to say well you know how is it, how is it working out in other in other types of societies where all the basic erm conditions of life may be different and that of course is one of these big erm big and small problems that we still, we're still really at the at the starting point fact. I mean does anybody think that parental investment theory is relevant at all to modern industrial society or is it completely irrelevant ? Matthew you're a, you're a sceptic and a, and a, and a and an independent thinker what do you think? I don't know, I'm not very sort of convinced one way nor the other That sounds judicious. Dean? Well, I'm, I'm a supporter of it, which you know erm it, it strikes me being far more effective than other forms er of er explanation. How much ice does it cut in the modern industrial society? I think, I think it think it must cut quite a lot because I mean there's certain I don't these biological constraints. How would they show themselves I mean? What people to look you know in the modern society women don't have to rely on men or don't have to have traditional sex roles, this is a point of view isn't it? Well I think er I think, well I think you have to have, I mean I don't really parental investment and stuff like that gestation period. I think, I think that in any, I mean in, in, in, if you wanna, if you wanna look at it in terms I mean I think labour it it's always gonna have to be there and I think the biological constraints put the you know, sharpened device Well there are ways aren't there I mean even in traditionally, I mean what of wet-nursing I mean that's an example isn't it where a woman gets another woman to do the job for her. Darren is that, what point were you gonna make? Well I think, like I said two ways one is erm Mm Or if you look at it another way that is men and women are equal and we haven't yet got round that they are very different but they are equal. I dunno, er you know you can put woman staying at home having the child for instance when there aren't enough children to fill the schools realize that having children is a very important in economic values what with nations increasing staying at home Yes I must say I, I personally sympathy with that I mean I think that erm, women's er role is er very much despised and disparaged it should be because if you think about it they're having the children and bringing them up, well this is one of the most worthwhile things to do society you can't going to survive unless you have a woman back in the having the kids and we might see that as a you know you laugh when I say that, you know Well he doesn't survive, he might survive Alright, alright this is what I mean yeah, yeah but you know it's really difficult discussing this topic without people sniggering and getting all upset . It's that they have equal decisions, really so you can't say . It's only how we of behaviour Well but they are really equal because without one another, they're not gonna I don't think, I don't think it will, I think erm certainly from a cultural point of view the questions that comes up of erm in that type of society they think sod this I'm going hunting, but the fact of the matter is the men . I mean time of physiological difference and strength needs of their strength that they could just about fire a and he couldn't even pull them back and so they you know, fine if you wanna go hunting use the boat Yeah the arrows, but the Yeah, yeah and, it's but then it's a question of where a woman a woman could, but you know is it that easy to jump out cultural you know cultural investment provided by that and er you know y y y you and if a man is slightly stronger other way round so he can collect, collect more food and another argument which is that Yeah, it's the, it's the with the word natural isn't it that er you know people often use the word natural to mean good and right and therefore something you should do, but of course no not always I mean if I said to you death is natural, nobody here would think I was advocating suicide or that er we shouldn't have hospitals to try and save people's lives I mean er when you say death is natural, what you mean is death is one of those things that we just have to put up with, we'd rather we didn't but we're all gonna have to face it in the end, some of us sooner than others er but erm but there we are. However if you say erm oh well you know erm boys will be boys that's natural,tha that sounds as if you're kind of making excuses for them and condoning them, so I think you've got to be very careful about how you use the word natural and clearly it raises the whole question of how far you can, you can push erm cultural ideals against natural constraints an and what really is the issue. You see it may be that Dean's right I must admit I think I, I agree with Dean I think he is right that the real problem is that natural selection may have fitted us by, as it were, rigging our emotional system. It may be at a, at a truly rational level we can all perfectly well do all kinds of other things rationally on a truly rational level, because there we have this this er high degree of that comes with rationality, but at a deeper, kind of gut level,the emotional feelings we, we find that it's, it's much more difficult, and at that point if you don't try and change things and do things that are unnatural, you find you're kind of going against the emotional grain and er perhaps some people find it easier than others, but perhaps everybody will feel a certain erm tug as it were, certain erm discomfort or a certain emotional alienation from themselves which er perhaps is because we're trying to do something more basic we just weren't designed for. I don't know I mean this would Would you sympathise with that Dean? Yeah, yeah question so, so we're, we're saying that the difference between male and female roles in this disruptive selection. Sorry remind us what you mean by disruptive selection again. Where, well where er disruptive selection i i i is very huge differences between men, male and female and this was then accentuated over a period of time Oh I see what you mean yes, fine, okay. Okay, so are, so, so it's just tha tha tha that along with this a psychological context, so you got a biological and psychological going hand-in-hand simultaneously. Yes, I mean this is the point I'll be developing later, later in, in, in the lectures, I'm currently spending a lot of time kind of researching and thinking about this, but i i it's ultimately the question of genes affect behaviour and more and more I come to the to the view that they probably do so erm through what we call our emotions, that our genes kind of erm guide us to do so and things through various subjective feelings like when we're hungry, we, we know we're hungry and it's a subjective feeling of hunger. What is actually happening of course we know in that case what is actually happening, because nerves erm er neurones in, in the base of the brain are actually sampling the blood flow as it goes through with sugar level and when the sugar level drops to a critical point, some of those neurones start to fire and as they fire gradually the message is passed on up to the higher brain centres and eventually you get the feeling you're hungry. Now, you, you're, that's a subjective feeling, you don't actually know that there are neurones in your blood sugar level, but you, you certainly know when you need something to eat and it, it's a kind of subjective feeling and it's not farfetched in the least to claim that our genes have rigged our brain in that way to do that because obviously we'd like to have more reproductive success if you know when you're hungry than when you don't and it may be that a lot of, in a lot of other ways genes affect our, our behaviour through similar erm effects, that is subjective feelings we have, often of an emotional nature to make us want to do certain things and an an and dislike doing others, and it may be that we, we're really kind of lumbered with that. Why is it in the genes why is it people are able to adjust their diets Well, oh yes, I'm sure I'm not saying that's the only thing that controls people's food intake I mean clearly there are things cultural some cultures, the Japanese seem to love eating raw fish, I mean how they can bring themselves to do it I do now know, I mean the raw is I don't think I'd want to eat again, but er erm not always if they were cooked either, but erm the, the er and certainly if you look at the Australian Aborigines even though we take the Australian Aborigines as our kind of primeval people, they have astonishing food taboos, I mean their attitudes to food are very very culturally er effective to, to a quite extraordinary extent, some so that somebody somebody discovered that eating a tabooed food by accident, they'll get very ill, a kind of psychosomatic illness. So I'm not saying th th that there aren't these th the important other inputs, but, but what I am saying is that if you ask yourself where the kind of gene behaviour interface really exists is clearly in the human er in, in the human mind and it may be that the basic kind of parameters erm have, have been set for our emotions and I really don't see how we can change those. I was thinking for instance when you have generation of young men how do you, what's the time left to something extreme can be done culturally and people can be sort of you know convinced that they're right and that they go out there and get machine guns can be done culturally, whereas Well it may be of course that that kind of thing has always tended to happen gather of society skirmishing goes on and young men are expected to go and find very often Yeah, yeah, more immediately, but I mean when they're sort of it has Well then I agree, then I, then I think you do need a fairly sophisticated psychological theory to try and explain er how that could come about. That's one of the reasons why I'm, why I'm also interested in er in Freud because I think Freud provides that, I happen to think that Freud's studies of, of crowd group psychology actually explain that, although it takes time to you know, certainly not at five minutes to four, it takes time to explain, but I think there is an explanation there and I think you c y y you can claim that there are certain emotions to do with identification and idealization,th that our genes have a programmer which things like erm nationalistic erm, erm er kind of jingoism can exploit in a modern culture which in primal cultures would have primal cultures people identify with their, with their local kin and their local culture and that's that might ultimately promote their reproductive success, but that in modern cultures, this identification occurs with erm on a completely different level and with lots of people will not merely because you need so many more people modern cultures you have much more erm much bigger groups and you just meet many more people that, than you were ever th there is some interesting research, research recently published for instance which shows erm organizations seem to have a critical size and that people are not really able to track more than about two hundred and fifty other people, in other words you can have face-to-face relationships with up to about two hundred and fifty others, but once it gets beyond two hundred and fifty it's too much and you start forgetting somebody as if the brain was primed to an optimum group size and once you get above that you just can't keep . Have you read about that? That's right, I would say so Yeah That's right, yeah yeah. Yeah That's right yeah. Is there also something to do what's happening in Eastern Europe . They say you know Swiss Well you see the, the, the great Soviet experiment is a good example isn't it of, of a whole civilization was based on a o o on a kind of great social experiment was based on ultimately on erm unsound principles and then a part of the scenes. Er and I suppose the great you know lesson of social sciences in, in some ways if it's, if it's for anything it ought to be to try and avoid that kind of disaster, because erm if we understood ourselves better we might you know in the future try and avoid that thing because we just wouldn't attempt if, if that wasn't an attempt to be . So erm I mean the justification for this kind of course I would claim is ultimately to try and make people more realistic about what is possible and er the, because th th the advantage of knowing what's possible is you can avoid impossible experiments that ultimately result in disaster for everyone. Well sceptical silence, but that's what I'd like to think that we, we were doing. Well yes. Drug, anti-drug legislation may be another thing. Of course drugs is, is one of the wonderful examples that the very thing that Katherine was talking about, something that wasn't there in the beginning and that has been produced by modern technology and is now a big problem, but is not a problem to Australian Aborigines because they don't have any drugs er to speak of, of course now they do and alcohol is a terrible problem with Australian Aborigines I talked to David McKnight about it. Absolutely awful . Well the Australians are at least trying to didn't have much success apparently Really? and they went loco Folks it's four o'clock erm just a second erm just before you go let me remind you next week it's Laura. Okay? And Darren we gotta, I'll see you in just a sec. Hello. Ah really? Erm, who, who gave you the message? Oh er, I, I don't think I ra I don't think I rang you actually, er I wonder if the message was from someone else. Erm, I do need to see you some time erm let me just just see erm, but I've got your erm your last term's report here that we need to meet to discuss. Er, could, could we make a date? Erm, as I said it wasn't me that phoned originally, my guess is that there may be somebody else at the school who is trying to contact you, but while you're on the line, let's just make a little let's just make a little date. Erm what about, when would be convenient for a quick tutorial? What about Thursday? Right. What about next week, what about Monday? Right y your day off, well that means you don't want to come into the school? Okay next Monday, what time would suit you? Right. Right. Could we make it at erm two P M? Right, that's two P M next Monday the first February, okay. See you then. As I said I didn't phone, I dunno who it was. Erm, it might be an idea to try and get hold of him whoever took the message cos it might be something important, but anyway I'm glad you phoned. Thanks, bye . Right now, sorry to keep you waiting for a minute. Erm, now did we, did we do your reports? No. Right, let's, let's do that first cos that's important. Erm, I'll have to sign the form. There we are, right. Right I got all four here of course I didn't bother to write a comment cos I'm delighted. I've given you an A for participation B plus for written work and that gives you an average of B which is good or excellent. So that's alright there's no problems there. Now Mr 's philosophy Aha. has given you A for participation which is good, C for written work which is satisfactory and B minus for assessment, so it actively participates er gave a paper for the class, but no second essay. Does that mean you owe him an essay or something? No,essays, you got both you've got two essays. Well, right he's, this was probably written before he got the second one, because they would have done this last term They were handed in on time, handed in on time. Well, perhaps you ought to bring that He marked them both. I should raise that with him He's marked them both Has he? Yeah. Right. I mean I got pretty bad marks I find it difficult, find it very difficult. Really? Well, it's frustrating the hell out of me you know. Why's that? I've never done any On this subject that we ought to carry on and and and No I'll come to it. Do you want to come to it alright. I'll come to it. Sorry. Ray would you care to start the meeting . Okay yes, okay meeting commenced with the production shortages of which there are no production shortages today. There are also no packaging shortages. Er yesterday on non-conformances most of my non-conformances I think there are about five outstanding. Er with the exception of one that from er which is relative to er grit sand where the computer. Oh that one's been sand in the bags instead of sharp sand. What's happened? Have they been scrapped? Is is that the er super five litre standard? That's correct yeah. No No p what Peter said was, if it hasn't been picked up by the lab and it's an internal problem, it can be dealt with internally. So as far as reducing stocks are concerned, am I to reduce my figures by No no because the bags have already been you know on the back of the compost plant time sheet, you've already got that those bags have actually been wasted. So that has already been done. So really the non conformance was no need to be There was no need cos it didn't turn Issued or raised erm the stocks came off, the bag stocks off. So according to Peter we've no need to do a non-conformance for such as this. When it can be dealt with internally within a couple of days. It's nice to see that it was action anyway and the rest of the I agree with that. gone through despite . But there is actually some production shortage cos we want four hundred twenty five kilos . Well according to Cindy this morning, that's where I got my information from, she said there were no production shortages. From yesterday. But there's one today. we need four hundred er S H M load samples for but it's in S H M bags. we've only got two pallets. And they can't produce them They can't produce some more tomorrow cos they're on tomorrow. Check with Rob. Loaded today, delivered tomorrow. . So it's that doesn't Cindy's now see if we can put the lorry back or see if the How long does it need to get it done? It won't be ready while tomorrow afternoon. be on stock duty did you say? Well there's eighty on stock. We know it's eighty from the stock count but I don't know what the computer says. Well we'll have a look, that's the simple answer So we're we're trying to rearrange the load like. Cos it's ten tonne short on the lorry. Did erm was mentioned yesterday because we didn't have any of this erm Seaweed. Seaweed. In and that's coming in on Friday and I asked Jackie yesterday whether she could come in and talk to you, she was trying to Monday. No she's sorted it out. What she decided to do was produce Monday which we agreed to put it in for Monday and she would ask them midweek delivery. I was just wondering put that back to the same delivery . Well this isn't going direct to er . So and it's part of the three drop load so. No Jackie'd agreed that midweek the turf hardener goes out. Is that lorry going out ten tonne short today then? Yes ten tonne short. Well I don't know yet, we're trying to sort that one out, we're trying to either put the load back or get another order to go with it . As I say w plus they're not gonna want that t today are they they're not gonna s they're not gonna use it in No no they're not gonna use it today. Well they're not gonna be using it tomorrow when it gets there. But the other one of the is a nine o'clock delivery in the morning you see so the rest of the load must be there you see. The other two drops. Yeah. There's obviously a ten tonne drop and two t five tonne drops on the lorry. But we tried this get round that. . So do we know why we've got the shortage, is it because th It hasn't been picked up you see has it? production well no It hasn't been picked up on Unless the computer says there's a suff It may be Yeah there's sufficient stock And that's why it hasn't been picked up. The computer's telling them it's in stock. Which suggests we've got a stock problem again then. Well when the from Saturday's stock-take anyhow I don't think. Well they've been put in now. They've put in now. Who's doing production planning at the moment. Peter from home apparently. Okay.. That's it from me. Okay. Lines one and two well lines one we're having a problem erm with some of the bags. Alan come to me yesterday afternoon, er and they said the rubber suckers was missing of the end of the sucker spouts that picks the bag up. We put them on and apparently it's making no difference. Er I haven't Alan this morning to discuss it with him but I will see him . Alan's just gone out there actually Bryn to have a look . Has he? Yeah yeah. Right. Erm tomorrow at nine o'clock I've got coming in to do this interceptor drain. I arranged with Dick that w Bill would be with him for two two and a half hours. But having seen Bill this morning, Jack is gonna No no no no no. It's all been rearranged . no we've rearranged that one. Right one's going. Oh No problem you can have him . Bill doesn't know yet We haven't even told Brian and Bill yet. Well that's what I'm saying But he's arranged Bill Bill's coming to me and saying he can't do that . No. It was arranged yesterday and we haven't got round to telling everybody yet. We I agreed with Dick well we both agreed that Bill would be with you and we'd sort out Jack. So we haven't seen anybody yet . We'd previous arranged this for Bill to go. Then when you asked me if you could have Bill for Thursday morning. We rearranged it . Then we had to rearrange it. Yeah well it was supposed to be done yesterday wasn't it, then Jack couldn't . No the car wasn't running. That's right. Well yes, see so Jack we didn't know that's right, No it's all been done. still got Bill as previously arranged but we had to find somebody else for Jack. Cos Jack rearranged the day, we didn't. Right . Is this the oil out of the drain. Yeah. Did they they did a test on that and they can Yeah they're gonna clean it all out and bring the erm er water erm they're gonna flush . Is that gonna be is that gonna be a recurring problem? Or has it been a build up over a ye number of years This is the first time we've had to do this interceptor cos I didn't even know it was in and I don't think Dick did. I never knew it was there anyway. been here ten years so. This is the first time this problem's arisen? Yeah. Yeah. But we we still always get problems with drains because of the the state of the yard and what materials we've got in the yard. Yeah. You know On on the state of the yard did did you speak to er Lynne Yeah yeah yeah and they they're coming back with the three separate quotes. Okay. So erm we should well Mick said he'll give me this week anyway. So as soon as I get I'll I'll let you know. Erm that's as much as I've got this morning. are you happy with are you? Well I am. Up to a point, because now we've got the the go ahead for the new chiller, which is ordered, erm that's only getting rid of part of the problem. Erm because the old plates and the water inlets and outlets in the machine and the pipework'll still let stuff in. So we don't when he was here last week doing some er alterations on it, to go through what he'll actually want to make it all new all the way through. So done it, that's got rid of that problem. Er and I'll price it all up so another two hundred and sixty quid. Sorry what's two what's two hundred and sixty quid? These parts to go on the machine. There's there's a waterways, where the water flows through to cool the bars . Yeah. Now. They're all furred up are they or something. They're all furred up. Er you clean 'em out but then again you you get it back so Is it lime scale or something? Well it is and it it's it's like sludge and that that's coming out the bottom of the erm tank, the water tank. It's dust it's dust. But saying we've got that problem now, we've got the problem with that so we're gonna change one part which is the chiller Yes. So alright, we're gonna filter the water that goes into that, but the stuff inside the pipes and inside the little waterways that through the cooling bars, are still got stuff in. Well is isn't there isn't there erm c And the gaskets are in there there's a s there's gasket sets in there, they've all got it all in. Can't you close it through or something or can't you put anything in it that would Well. de-scale it. I don't know how you do sludge and that there and it's it's everything it's a con you know we ought to have kept some and shown you because it is it is I've never seen anything like it myself. It sludges everything up. Anyway s to cut a long story short, I had a word with Stuart to see what it'd cost. He said, well we ought to do it. Is the two hundred and sixty quid? Yeah. And does that resolve the problem? That's that's new new chiller all where your waterways and everything'll be clear. Does that resolve the problem though? Well yes. Or are you saying it's resolving the problem today and next month it's gonna be as bad again. No because what we're what we're gonna do now which we haven't got now, we're gonna have a sealed tank where no dust can get into it Right. The chiller's a sealed unit isn't it? Yeah yeah. And it's got the tank in the bottom. And the outlet to that into the machine is gonna have a a charcoal filter in. So you're filtering it before it goes in the machine and still we're saying, why don't we filter it as it comes out the machine, before it goes back in the tank. Yes. Cos you're circulating the water round. Right. And it chills it. And this is what I'm going into. But I mean It's only say two hundred and sixty quid, add it on to the chiller thing. Yeah but the the point is this. I said, that's alright, but when you find out what wanted to er to to do, he said it'd take two days. And I said well we can't two days. So I've been in touch with Brian again erm and I said, can't you make sure that your blokes can do it in a day. Cos I've had a word with with them There's nothing we can do ourselves then, it's got to be done by Well we can we can but as I said, the two lads who know about it, who could do it, they said well it might take us two days. Then they says anything technical that they don't know about, you've got to bring back in. Have you got the labour costs on top of that at as well? Yeah yeah that's that's what I'm saying, it's gonna take that's that the it's gonna take two days . Plus the lost production time. Yeah, plus lost production. But I said to Brian, if we can have it say for a Saturday, and make sure you do it in one day. So coming back to me on that . But you don't I mean you're gonna production anyway by putting the chiller in presumably aren't you? No. No. Well you are, ten minutes. Oh. That's what er Is it because of our hard water in this area do you think, or would that machine have been the same anywhere in the country. Well if you No at the moment it's getti the tank the water tank isn't sealed, it's drawing a lot of dust in, er we've tried putting a cover over it and everything else and that's what's causing the sludging. As well as the scaling. It's sludging and scaling at the same time. But if you're putting a ch if you're putting this chiller in,and don't do the other part Hello? where it all sludges. Isn't the sludge gonna go through your new chiller ? Ah no no no no no. The the actual sludge that's in there is in the chiller, it's in the bottom of the water tank where we're drawing the water from that goes through the cooling system. But that that goes through that goes to chiller won't it. That water will go through the chiller. Yeah. Won't it be pulling up some of that sludge through the chiller and if we don't That is what's happening now but what I'm saying is put a new chiller in Yeah. That's got rid of the sludge in the tank and everything, you put in a complete sealed unit on. Okay. But we're not saying is the pipe-work and the little waterways if you see the machine you'll understand more. Okay. But there is little er flows in in the in this pipe-work and everything. See you've got to get rid of all that because at the back of your mind you're still saying, Well I've spent a lot of money still only done part of the job. What is is this come to light after the event as it were or did you know that was there when we were redoing the machine? They've known they've known about this for a fair while. Well why wasn't this why wasn't this done when we were redoing the machine for goodness sake. It it should have been because I put in. It was giving the back. I mean it could have been done if we'd got a go-ahead. But nobody come back and give us the go-ahead to do it. So you're saying that er this additional two hundred and sixty quid for d replacing those pipes was a separate ? No no no but we're saying that the chiller should have been put on wh But you've got your chiller but y did you know those pipes were a problem before when you No no y No nobody's thought of it until I stood there and watched it and I says to George the operator, I says, Right we're gonna put a new chiller on here. Now we should get rid of the problem, but what about the waterways in there. He says, Well really, he says, you it could do to be changed. So. And then we had because we got problem on the waterway again. Yeah. Last week. We got man in and he started clearing it all again. I said when we get a new er new chiller on there, that will cut that out. He says, Yeah, but he says, you'll still have stuff in these pipes somewhere, he said, you can blow them out, you can do what you like, but he said, you'll find out you'll get some in. So what's cost of ? What's today's cost? Today's cost for for a fitter? I don't know I don't know this is why I'm waiting for Brian to come back. I know what I Know what it's cost us for that weekend. Yeah what was it costing us for that weekend? It's cost us three and a half thousand pound. Of labour. Yeah. For for one man? Two men. Hello? Some people over charge don't they? Three and a half thousand pound for two men for a weekend? Yeah. I'll give you a ring. Yeah it was all time and a half, double time. Three and a half thousand pound! For two men for two days. Yes. And the chiller and the waterways and everything should all have been done all at the same time . can we send somebody away to and do a course. And then hire him out at weekends? Yeah sure. I've got Arthur on for you Bryn.. took out Good morning. it used to get in . . Yeah. How long have we had that machine? Three years . Three years. And want to buy one. Can't we sell them ours and put in a new one Yeah can't we have a . They're here tomorrow, we're gonna treat them and we're gonna suggest. Well I certainly am. With a weight filler next time, not a volumetric. Exactly. That's what we're saying, whoever's Yeah. if you have a volumetric you've also got to have some sort of weight checks with it haven't you. you can't tell the weight through the volume can you? Yeah. It was there there could be Yeah. er a weight Yeah. thing added onto it. But it was something like couldn't afford two thousand pounds. That much. And all the hassle. Well we laughed at the time didn't we. Yeah yeah. not just this place is there. Not just this place to look after really. So that's gonna cost another grand then isn't it. It's gonna be eight hundred odd quid for nine hundred pounds for I can't remember what I can't remember what they charge, it is on that bill what they charge for a Saturday. It is on that bill and I think it's something like thirty pounds . I've got it down on my desk somewhere. The bill. Well I mean it's going to sort of s start shooting up to round about a thousand pound then you'll have to have a word with Tom . Well that's I was intending to have a word with Tom about it. well do that. Because it is it's a lot of money. It's a lot of money. Okay. But what I say to do is buy a new chiller and get it on and then all Summer we'll get this damn problem again. Well yes, you're just throwing money away aren't you . That's right. Yeah. Yeah. But I say, it should've been it should've been all d I mean everybody's known about this chiller for a long while and it's as I say, I mean when was here it was costing a thousand pound a time. Mm. To clear all the waterways and that out. You see and it's alright to buy a new chiller, it's only half the problem. But I mean, if it was costing this sort of money to clear the pipes and so forth out, what I fail to understand is if we're having a full overhaul of the machine, why this wasn't incorporated within it. Well yeah. I agree with you. I mean. But it should have it should have been brought Paul introduced a total system there for er maintenance on that machine on a daily weekly and monthly basis. Because the machine was so busy, just after the time he introduced it, the line was never available to do all the checks that were on that and it and Roland's got them in a file there I've got them as well. You've got a file of them. Of everything they had to check. And the cooler was one Yeah. and cleaning the cooler was one of the checks. Yeah it's Yeah. Yeah. Sorry but it was. But you see this is not the first chiller is it. We've had another chi You see it's always been the same kind of chiller. Yeah but they've been open chillers as opposed to closed chillers before haven't they. The wh the whole point is Steve, when it comes down to basic facts, it should have had a proper sealed unit chiller on it when it was new. Where you wouldn't have had any of this problem. This is a case of hindsight's a wonderful thing. But it was so costly so they said they'd get a second hand one. But I mean the the the chi how much was the chiller? Two two thousand something? Two thousand a hundred and fifty pounds . Well relative to the price of the machine, it's hardly costly is it. Yeah but it's been in what? Two and a half years now? I mean they knew they knew about the chiller at time cos I think said Anyway, you've got your chiller, let's price the pipes and let's go on Alright Well I've got the price of the pipes it's just the labour. the labour because erm I can't see any point in doing half a job. No. Okay. Anything else Bryn? No th that's that's all. Eric? We've talked . Hello? Yeah, morning. Just to remind everyone that er it is the er property insurance inspector's visit today. Alright Stuart cheers. Do we know what time, Eric? I've no idea at all. I I'll go in I the only information I've got is Stuart came into the meeting, Monday and give us half an hour talk on it. It's the only information I've got, Insurance. Stuart will ring and let you know he said, this morning. He'll let you know when coming round. coming round today isn't he . Yes. He's got he's got about two or three visitors today . Yes yes he's he's ta taking round some Japanese investors. Is the er is the yard in a good state? The yard's quite good . Yeah we did did we organize a sweeper for today. No. No. You what? No sweepers today? No never said owt to me about . No no we didn't know there was a visit there w only this I only found out about the Japanese this morning. Oh I didn't know about it but I mean the we we've had guys out and we've cleaned up some Yeah it's just a little bit muddy that's all. Unfortunately. It's a working yard I mean Yeah Yeah I mean Yeah I mean we we we haven't done anything extra special but it is neat. It is neat. And it's tidy. It's tidy. Yeah. It's tidy. And people are aware of the insurance inspector coming round . Yeah. And you're working on that shrink wrap er areas aren't you saw them there yesterday. Yeah yeah yeah. The only other thing is that er I was . We are due for another service and it's this month, the yearly service. That they are all up to date and er I'll just do a final check up after the meeting. Make sure nobody's let one off and I don't know about it which often happens. And can you ring Stuart please when you've finished in this meeting. Yeah. Mm. Er yeah just just one other thing, Pete going through the accident book, there's one or two that are coming up with people on the liquids line getting splashes of liquid in their eyes. And one of them has had a day off. Which was smarting in the eye and she went to hospital to have her eye rinsed and all that. And there was another one as well. Is there any possibility they could wear glasses on that line. I I know I've asked before. The glasses are in number four, they've all been provided but they just Whether they don't know that they're there. I will ensure that everyone who's working on that line is issued with a pair of safety glasses . I don't mean goggles I mean just the glasses with the side pieces . Yeah yeah we got them. We got twenty didn't we? I will make sure that everybody's issued with them. Thank you very much. That's all from me. Dick. Twenty seven lorries today then, Pete and I went down to two o'clock on Monday. s to see what had been done over there. And really had a good clean up. It was really good. Was it? it was four pallets which had fell over near the door which we're gonna get tidied up, we'll get those tidied up in time. There's a lot of there in bulk which we're gonna get out on Friday. So you can Bulk? Bulk. So are We've got one load of bulk. Yeah and That they're gonna load it, the lorries arranged. I've talked to Arthur about it, he's agreed we can put it on pallets. Because at the Has he? end of the day, we You're palletizing and the containers. We're gonna palletize containers. Isn't that gonna is that gonna slow up the unloading of the containers considerably ? It it is No it isn't now because w Pete said they could have seven people out there so if they get seven people out there, Yeah. you've got two elevators, so we can have It it does it makes far more sense We we can actually I mean if if these twen these twenty foots come, we can actually discharge from either end. Yeah. Straight onto a pallet, palletize it, wrap it, forklift it, put it in, stack it three high. Well I I have to pose the question then do we want the Well I'm not sure about the three high yet. Well the conveyor that Stuart's got ordered. Well that's alright, we need it we shall need it for the We need it anyway. for the forty foots anyway. We shall need it for the forty foots. Okay. but we can unload, three men on each and one fork lift driver. Right. B We're going out at ten to have a look at it again to test see how high that fork lift Will reach? will reach. Cos I don't think it'll reach three pallets high. Well Mark can operate that thing anyway. Yeah yeah that's fine. Yeah yeah well that's why I asked his . So we're going out well after the meeting to to sort that one out, we'll try it in there. Er Oh it would it would make life so much easier for getting that stuff out later won't it palletize it . Yes. well it will. But you don't do you hav wil will have you got to shrink wrap it at all or will it hold will it will it just sit right on the pallets without falling off? shrink wrap it. You'll have to shrink wrap it won't you. Yeah yeah. I mean you won't want much but I mean just to hold it. Just to hold it on. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So it's now we've got seven people, it's gonna make it a lot easier for the first twenty containers which is forty containers in actual fact isn't it. But We need back to back. Yeah. So we that's going to sort that problem, co s we can Forty containers back to back. There's twenty containers. Yes. But there's forty boxes isn't there there's forty actual container's isn't there? Cos there's There's twenty trailers, forty containers isn't it . twenty back to back. There's twenty trailers forty . No there's not, there's twenty containers. There's twenty twenty foot containers. So it's only ten. It's ten lorries, twenty twenty foot containers . Oh well that's alright . Oh well that's fine that's even better. Yeah, that's even better, but then we're on to the forty foots so that's even better. Yeah. Yeah. with you saying twenty, I thought there'd be twenty lorries with So so it's only No no it's twenty twenty foot containers . Oh well that's even better still. Erm we'll need to isolate separately the wages on that cost Lynne because we'll need to add it to the No problem. stock value. Yeah. Otherwise Arthur'll jump up and down like a demented rabbit. And can we erm hire a minibus? If you need to hire a minibus We we need to hire a minibus it's about a hundred and seventy quid for the week . For the week? Yeah okay. That okay, can I go ahead. Yeah make sure that's added to the stockpile to the stock value But it it'll actually reduce costs later because later on it's just a matter of Calling it in. Calling it in. Yeah. Yeah that's good. seven thousand cubic metres of the damn stuff up at er area.. How much. Seven thousand, one hundred and sixty three cubic metres. Can it be mixed with half peat so that it goes to er So this has all been arranged for Friday. Have you any idea when the containers are coming in yet? Erm Cos the chap Norman says he's he's given a contact there Yeah. for the chap to ring me but he hasn't rung me yet. Well you ring him then if you like Yeah. it's erm George Oh I've got his name Yeah. I've got a I've got his name and Yeah. Lawrence anyway. That's right, yeah. Er I mean the the stuff's due to come in on Friday, he reckons it'll get it's the fourth on Friday isn't it? the docks on Friday. They're due into the docks on into the docks on Friday, they're due to get customs clearance sort of pretty well immediately apparently and the the speed at which they're gonna load these containers is quite phenomenal. They don't really expect any er any delay erm and they're expecting to start shipping up here on the Monday. What I don't know is when on the Monday. So you know, really you want to tie that up with Lawrence Yeah. because you don't want guys out there from eight o'clock in the morning No. standing around at three o'clock in the afternoon That's right. waiting for a blasted lorry to turn up. Well Yeah I don't want to send them . I think we're gonna struggle with the three in a day on the twenty foot. We maybe okay . Three lorries a day? Yes. Mm well it's six containers. Yes. Norman doesn't think we're gonna do three a day. We Well as long as you as long as you've got the twenty cleared in the week. five days, I don't mind. . You see wh Ideally I'd like to try one to see how gonna take like you know. Well why don't you get two for the first day, and then and then then they're not Well we can get we'll have two . Well h we'll have two a day I think that's if you say we can great I mean Oh yeah I mean I'm saying two a day, but erm if you can get three a day, I'd prefer it because Oh yeah yeah. obviously it's gonna reduce the time of the er But if I order two of the of the cost of the guys That's right. seven guys. Yeah. I mean I don't want to enhance the cost of that any more than I have to. No. No. Well no no but I mean, if we limit it to two for the first day, and a I mean I shall know by eleven o'clock It makes far more sense to to do two for the first day, then you can judge how many you can get through in a day from those two. Because. If you have three charging on you gonna cost an arm and a leg like that's why I was saying that you know, we don't want too much to start with. No. Er will the forty foots can they is there a time between 'em or can we just carry straight on with it. No you can't the forty foots haven't even The we've got a huge problem in Sri Lanka. The are playing silly buggers. We've paid them for fifty percent of the F O B costs, er because they said, Unless you pay us, we won't load. So we paid them, it cleared our bank last week and they're still refusing to move the product, we don't know why. So it's still sitting in a I see. still sitting in a So be quite a time before It's still sitting in bales in Sri Lanka. Mm. So. I mean it's gonna I think it's gonna be quite a time delay. Well at least we can plan it for the week then. I least we know we're gonna clear the first lot in a week then now don't we . Yes yeah On Friday w would it be a good idea Cos I don't know what time the generator's but I mean it would be really best if we could set things up. Wouldn't it on Friday. you'll have to talk to Stuart because you've got the hire on a week by week basis. Now whether they'll deliver on a Friday and not count that as a delivery day I don't know. Aye it's yeah it's well I don't know but I think it's it is definitely coming on Friday. Is it. Yeah cos I I I left it with Stuart to to arrange all that but maybe he's got the hire from Friday to Friday. people generator was on to me the other day cos we I insisted that it's got two three phase outlets on. But the point is what I'm saying is if we could get that stuff there on Friday afternoon and get the the conveyor set to where you want 'em, because I don't know what leads you want the lorry got there on Monday morning, wants unloading, and we're flying about for damn leads, we we're gonna be in trouble. Well yeah but the beauty is now Arthur's agreed to let us put it on pallets, we can start unloading the containers without the elevator. Ah. Can't we These are whites you're putting on aren't they? White forty forty eights yeah. Yeah. Yeah, he says but he didn't want to buy er five by fours. And the thing is we were buying forty forty eights we that we were u reusable for the plant when we need 'em. Yeah that's okay. Er Right. But e So the conveyor's going on on the line on Friday afternoon Yeah. At two o'clock. Yeah is that one from here. That one from here. Yeah. The bulker's going in at two o'clock. Yeah. So's he he can the bulker to get rid of . Yeah yeah. If we take some diesel down when we go, Yeah. Providing we can find some twenty five litre drums. Yeah. So that's the diesel. Yeah. Well you see the the generator will come on a lorry with . So really when he well it obviously wants to be in the place where you want it. Yeah yeah. You know. That's what I'm saying you you know you've really got to say well, the generator can be there. Cos once he drops it. Yeah. Is well it'd be better really for Friday afternoon. Mm. I mean really I mean I can't see that before Monday Yeah I'll have a word with Stu but i mean he's gonna be that busy today. if he's setting it up if they're not bringing while Friday and they set it up give you time to set it up Mm. Mm. But we can start working out there on on Monday morning Without the elevator. without the elevator without the The generator. generator. Can I ask a question? Erm this is two isn't it? one. one. two is is is er . manufacture,. They're storage of diesel, do they have storage of diesel there? Well they've got lorries haven't they I don't know why they they have got lorries Hang on that's that's not. We'd better have gas-oil to take containers from here and leave the containers there. I think that you should have a small amount, just what you're using on the day Hello? and and fetch it from if al if we're allowed to do that . No just a sec who is it, Vernon? Just a sec. It's Vernon. I'll look at the safety aspect. well it's not all that inflammable, gas oil isn't is it? Hello . No Not diesel. be nice to get it from rather than take it from here that's what I was thinking. what I don't see any difference in it actually. Cos we've still got to put it in drums to take it from from to one . Mm well yeah What is it is it on this turntable ? I'll make a note that you mentioned it anyway. Er the I did work for a petrol company . Is is the er is the space that's gonna be taken up by palletizing Yeah. much greater than it would otherwise be if you Yeah. free free stacked it? Well it all depen if we can get it three high Yeah I mean there's no comeback on us is there? This lifter three pallets high lifting Er well if it's if it's possible yeah, but if if it's on your you'll have to disconnect your battery . That's why 's going up today something about the space availability. As long as there's no comeback. Erm you'll be surprised. Okay okay . There's a lot of space there is there? There is a lot of space. all the packaging and the gateway stuff and all that? The gateway we're still in the far left hand corner cos he's said he'll move that over the other side. Okay. He knows it's got to be kept separate from the other. Okay. And then what about the remainder of the old because there's about four thousand cubic metres of that. Is the intention to palletize that or to leave it as it is. Well erm we'll leave that as it is . Leave it as it is. Now But what we could do of course, is is we put in a time between containers, we could always use them to re-palletize it. Palletize it. Yes you could that's that's a good idea. Yeah I mean so as they're not stood there doing nothing. Yeah that's an excellent idea. This is the idea wh asked Peter Mark cos you know and he can can control people you know. One of the main concerns that Vernon had was the mess that was caused by throwing, his words, the bales down, and they were breaking open. Mhm. Erm has that how are we going to address that problem in the future? Well we can't because they're that high. You can't So it's still going to create a mess. It's still gonna create a mess The pile that's there there's gonna be a certain amount of mess that comes of it . So if he's got that place in a good state, it's beholden on us To keep it to keep it that way. Yes. The area where he's cleared. Yes. Yes. Yeah. I got this clear but you've messed it up again. No I mean we're we're we're actually getting the area just inside the door where there's some quite unstable amount. Alright we're actually getting that sorted out straight away and we're gonna sort of step it back if you like. Okay. Initially. We're gonna make it safe cos when you're the door you can actually walk in the door and and get clobbered with a lot of bales I feel so we're gonna make that safe. But by starting at the other end, Mm. we're gonna leave it nice nice and tidy pallets. Okay. but it doesn't solve the problem at the other end. No no. So anything we're doing now Is for the future. I rang yesterday I said, well look we've got the okay to palletize it now and he's quite happy about that. Okay. And it solves the problem once and for all. It does yeah. Okay. So everything's going really according to plan . Er racking damage, Carrie's who in bay one and two, came to me this morning and said the the racking that he checks it every morning when he comes at six or wh Six seven, whenever he starts. He said one of the beams had been hit and dented. of the new racking. One of the new racking. Now it's pretty obvious one side the fo A forklift has tried to put a pallet in between two and nudged the pallet next to it and it's the pallet's dropped down into the racking. Right. Then he's tried from the other side and he's done the same from the other side. That by putting it in the middle of the other side, he clipped the pallet again the opposite side and that also went down in between the racks and dropped on the pallet below it. Fortunately they're both part pallets so they . But when he's put the pallets in the centre of the beam one either side, he's hit the racking beam and it's dented. Now nobody's done it, now we've got two people in our area and one packing line, so I suggest we get them three together now and sort it out as to who done it and if they haven't done it and then wait while the three o'clock mane comes on, see if he's done it. Mm. Cos there's only four people working there. This this is er carelessness is it? It's Pardon? That is carelessness that's caused this? I mean c can that sort of thing happen by accident or is it just carelessness I could happen by accident pure accident Certainly but what I'm saying, nobody's a Nobody's owned up to it. Nobody's owned up to it. So we we well all I suggest is we get the three together after the meeting, John and our two men and say, well look, who's done it and if they haven't, see the other man when he comes on. as far as the racking itself's concerned has it erm affected the stability of the racking or has it just dented it I mean is do we need to do anything about it? The beam'll have to come out. The beam'll have to be changed without a doubt. And what we don't know yet if the back beam's alright. I I think the back beam'll be alright. He must've whacked it fairly hard to caused that sort of damage. It wouldn't take a very big hit with the mass of a forklift to dent it in actual fact. Wouldn't it? No no. Is that sort of thing, presumably we've got to get the racking people back in to do that have we? Well we can change it We can change it? No we we can change them. we Do we have spare racking beams? No we've got five spare uprights though, by changing the design, the layout, we've got five spare uprights out of the But it's a horizontal beam you want. But it's the horizontal beam we want. Sod's Law innit. Sod's Law. the horizontal beam cost so much swap for one of your spare uprights. No but I though of ringing Paul today to ask him about what he was gonna do with this other racking . Er there's a chap coming to see me tomorrow Oh fine. er a local chap was rung me up yesterday Well rang me up Mm. I said, no no we haven't got any scrap racking. But he put me in touch with a chap who was interested in buying it. So I rang Paul and er he's coming up tomorrow, he would have come in today had to go to but he's coming in the morning to look at it. Fine. It's the same chap as put the racking in the room. Oh from er Yeah yeah knows you quite well. Well apparently Peter Yeah, Pete . Pete . And he says, I understand you've put some new racking in. Why didn't Steve ring me and tell me he was putting some I said, I don't suppose Steve knew at the time. So he said . I don't want to know that he says. Eh? I don't want to know that. But he's interested in buying the old racking Is he? but he's not I thought Pete had retired actually mind you sons isn't it. Anyway. Yes. Nothing to do with me. Yeah, that was all I had to report thank you. Thank you Peter? We have had a problem for a long period of time now on high conductivity. Yeah. Now contrary to what we'd been informed erm the problem occurred over the last couple of days and having spoken to the ladies in the laboratory, the problem hasn't been purely on line five machine. It has been occurring on lines one, two and the machine. And it is an ongoing problem. Now in the absence of Dr and anybody else, yesterday, er myself, Ian , Nick er and one of the lab girls got together, we trialled all sorts of different er ways and means of getting round the high conductivity that was occurring er vis a vis a multi-purpose mix. That was the one that you had the problem with last week wasn't it? Yes. It's always appears to be that's the one that's brought to our attention. Now whether it's a h because it's a er a home name brand erm and it's not a standard, it is brought to our attention, there may be something there. We went round various different avenues and to I asked Ian and Nick to actually change the formulation and decrease the amount of nutrients that were put in a mix. We did that mixed it up Sorry did you get did you get Chris 's approval? No I didn't no I didn't. I did a two metre batch. Oh okay. Okay. A minimal amount. Because I couldn't er i mean Chris was one minute he was on the phone, the next minute you couldn't get hold of him. Yeah. But we had to do something. I did this and the actual conductivity reading come out at one thousand. Now the minimum is supposed to be eight hundred, the maximum is supposed to be twelve hundred. And I thought a thousand was a good mean average between them. Erm but obviously that was only a two metre mix. I then asked rather than erm wait for er Dr to come back, er we changed onto a different product which didn't involve conductivity but before doing that, I asked for ten pallets of to be run off with the nutrient mix reduced from two K Gs per metre to one point five K Gs per metre. And see how that panned out. And I've had the lab results this morning, and they're still high. The conductivity is still high. Not as high as they have been but they range from thirteen eighty five to fourteen forty. Isn't something to do with the with the the way it's mixed isn't isn't Chris talking about No? Erm if we knew the answer and this problem has been going on for for nine months. Er but it was an area that we hadn't attempted before. Okay we hadn't attempted reducing the nutrient thin ground I think you're on dangerous grounds adjusting the formulations aren't you without Yes yes of co of course I was, but i couldn't get hold of Dr and I thought well we're gonna have to try it this way anyway at some stage. So So you've done ten pallets, what's happening with that ten pallet? Well as soon as we get hold of Dr I am sure he will he will clear it as being okay on the conductivity readings. Okay there's no problem there. Or there is a problem because they're slightly high. But not as high as some we have. By the sa at the same time, I obtained the lab analyses for the last year. Now just going on products, off the compost plant for the last six months, I've gone through, I've taken I've noted down the number of samples taken, each month by month. The total conductivity readings for those samples for that month. And divided it by the number of samples taken to give us a mean average. Erm and it it it there's actually a pattern emerging er from October whereby the the conductivity reading is going higher and higher and higher. Erm and then averaging it out over that six seven months. Now I'm gonna discuss it with Dr who I spoke to y when I spoke to him yesterday, assured me he would be in today. Er and also Tom. So what was the mean average of the conductivity from October? October was one thousand one hundred and forty six which is quite near Yeah. to the border line. November was one thousand one hundred and two, December was one thousand and eighty seven and January was one thousand two hundred and eighty two. Now if we go back to July, it was nine hundred and nine. August was nine hundred and ninety one, September was nine hundred and seventy six. So it appears that it's increased. Is there anything that's fundamental changed with I mean we're using exactly the same formulation. We're using the same formulation. Same process Well as far as I'm aware we're using the formulation, yes. Same process? Same process. Same raw material suppliers? Yes. Yes. In in erm December in fact, we went on to what had happened was early last year, the nutrients were changed. Yeah. Now we'd never had a problem before with high conductivity. Erm so we we asked and asked and asked could we change back to the old nutrients which we did do in the early part of December, and lo and behold, suddenly there wasn't a problem. Everything was being passed. Have we gone back to But it's now going ba No we're still on the trial nutrients. The the or The original old ones . The original nutrients . The original old ones . Yes. The original old ones we're still on those but it's you're still using those, but your conductivity's still going up. Yeah. it's still going up again. So that really Have you got any readings from January last year? Yes. What what was January last year like? Er I I couldn't tell you off the top of me head I because I was working on it till half past midnight. It's nothing to do Nothing to do with the the atmospheric conditions is it. It could be. it seems funny because we reckon when it rains, it's it makes a difference But when I spoke to Dr last week I mean he just held his hands up and said i don't know. Okay. What do you want Brian. . You don't want any white rolls do you? No I want to plug something in there. Anyway seeing about that Steve. I'm seeing Chris about that today but in the absence I I did clear it with Arthur, what i was going to do. Oh okay. Alright? I I explained to him exactly what I was going to do and he said, okay. Yeah. Alright but just this once. Okay. Erm Yes i know I was treading on dodgy ground but we've got to do something But it's been so long. okay just that I think if you'd done it on your own Oh no. then I think that might have been No but it I mean it's just been so long, it I I said to him, can I do this trial and he said, and i explained everything about it and he said, yes try it. What do we do with all this stuff that's got excessively high conductivity, I mean is it being what's happening to it ? Well nine times out of ten we re re-sample it and it's allowed to go out. But there are occasions when we've had to rip and tip but it's causing a problem Most of it has been cos we've got thirty five pallets down at street which then has to be re-stacked and it has to be rewrapped and But if it's rubbish it's storage for Dick it's taking up. Once you start pulling pallets to pieces and then you've got to replace the pack what you've t taken off and rewrap it again and Hopefully today we'll get an answer because the first eleven samples it said that the conductivity up and down up and down because you you've got something else that's erm each pack is six by five litres. how many packs there are on there. Forty two. Forty two, yeah. Forty two packs of six by five litres, you go across, you take a a sample out of a bag and if it's low it's okay, if it's high they scrap the pallet. What surprises me is I went into the lab and I said to Sharon you know, er I said we've still got Well I thought what we wous what we would have done four fi four, five years ago like, I mean that would have been stopped and and and scrapped. Okay. He's letting all sorts go through at the moment. Erm. Mainly because when we recheck it again you see, through whatever reason you see, it's A lot of times a lot of times it it it goes back to normal. Goes okay. The conductivity doesn't stay at a certain level then? Well Well it appears to fluctuate. Yeah but Eric Eric took one bag and took how many four different samples and got four different readings out of one bag. How can you do that? It's got absolutely nothing to do with the with the erm with the peat. Let me say that because we've done a trial with wet peat we did a trial with dry peat . wet and dry exactly the same Yeah identical. Okay, seeing Dr . Okay and just one th I don't know who's responsible for the area by the the washing hose. Outside the packing store. Just there a in the packing store. The the hose is is well I mean i somebody could fall over it, it's by a fire exit door. Somebody could fall over it. Er I don't know who's responsible for the area, if nobody is, I'll get somebody to tidy it up . Well yeah it's a it is a yard area. Well it's actually inside and But it's a by a fire exit so and i would assume they're gonna be looking at it anyway. Just need to get it sorted. Lynne brought it to my attention. Well it is It's actually inside that door. I was checking the walkway the insurance man and the fire door's there and the hose is on the floor like that. it's not outside. No it's inside. It's inside. It's inside the packing door. So this is this is Yeah. We better get it cleared before this lot We need a reel or a hook on the wall for them to put the Yeah but at the minute it just comes out the way of the door . The reason why it's inside, cos of frost, that's why it's inside. Yes. But you see the people they just drag it down, they don't put it back. Mad. And now we've made it a fire door it's made it worse. That's that's all from me. Thank you Steve. No. Erm Dick I I walked round the site on Friday with er Paul and S Paul and Stuart because Paul has been I don't necessarily think this for you I don't know why I said Dick then. To everybody, I walked round the site with Paul and and Stuart last Friday because Paul had been whingeing to me about erm twenty five K G palletizing and the fact that they weren't they weren't properly packed as it were. And I said, Okay look, if I'm gonna say something to anybody, I want to have a look show me what you're talking about. So we went to the sixty six shop and I said what's wrong with that, pristine beautiful. And we actually then went down and we looked all over the place and there are quite a number of pallets that in fact are not properly stacked. Now er they're all Hand I take it those twenty fives are they? Twenty five K Gs. Yeah when they're patting the when they're patting the mixtures yeah. Erm And then we pick from them. You pick from them. The the problem would appear to be on people like D K who are the main complainers, that unless it's dead square, they're complaining about it. That's right. And they're saying They are saying that we're only ones they get pallets like that from. Now if you do walk around you'll see that there are quite a number of pallets that you could argue are not well not well packaged on the on the pallet. Mm. Do is there is there anything we can do about this. Yeah well what we do i All D K is double wrapped. We select the pallets then Do you? they must be uniform. They mustn't be out of the perimeters of the pallet. We go to no end of trouble to D K I mean the fee And it's all all the loads have to be signed by Chand and or to say Okay so you do bend over backwards for D K . We do bend over backwards for D K . And what's concerning me about the D K , I think we brought it up yesterd yesterday it was. Yeah. About when they get a load of in, Yes. I always insisted it went from Yes. now it's going from er . Yes. They're stacking isn't as good as what was. And the wrapping certainly isn't which Ray's taken up with them anyway. Well we're gonna get complaints from D K again if that's the case aren't we. We are. But er we don't send the out of there. You don't send it out of. I think a lot of our problems is caused by outside satellite locations cos we never have any control over what I think if we if we if we did actually look around long and hard rather than superficially at what we've got out in the yard, then it's ever so easy to criticize. I mean it's the world Oh well yes it is. I do think if er if we it strikes me I forgotten what the new guy's name is you've got in charge of the yard, what's his name? Brian . Brian, he strikes me as being a guy that that will look will do things and will probably get that yard in a good state. We will but it'll it'll take him another probably another three weeks but it's he's getting there. He knows which way he's going . Alright all I all I'd ask is that would you erm just mention to him what I've said and that if he believes after discussion with you that there are some pallets which are not in a fit state to send out, and they are gonna tip over on a lorry and dislodge, then they are rejected and Pete Pete knows about it and they are they are actually isolated and rewrapped. I'd rather spend money doing that before they go out than send them out and the bloody things to have to come back again. In in fact it wasn't long before it wasn't long before Christmas was it we we actually got together and I wrote a memo that if there is anything erm before it leaves the plant, if the tractor driver or whatever e doesn't like it and it's not acceptable then it goes back to the plant. And a and a memo did go out . re-palleted though. Yes they will. Well you you're not gonna accept it out in the yard. Do you remember the memo I sent round. Well yeah yeah. I do think we've just got to be self critical about . Well that th this is why I put the memo that if it's rejected by the tractor driver who takes that trailer out, Yes. then it's you know, the plant will do it . Oh no I we understand that. I'm saying we have to be self critical Oh of course we do yeah. and er er walking round with Paul and Stuart, I saw what they were talking about. You know, I couldn't hand on heart say, Paul, Stuart you're wrong. Now here it i this is what we do this is what it's like, it's fine, you've got nothing to complain about. I couldn't say that. I had to come back to a degree agreeing with them. There was only a small percentage but it's that small percentage which gives our problem. That's right yes. And so I say, for heaven sakes, let's all be self critical and and not send stuff out because Ah it'll be alright, that'll probably be accepted. I'd rather not take that risk because Yeah. One of the main concerns with Dick is twenty five Hello. Yeah. And that was bagged at We're in a meeting who is it? Now I know Alan and Ray I'll get then to ring Alright. but it's got so much of a slip factor on it. Bone meal and it's like bloody walking on ice. Yeah. You know. But it has improved now. The ones that come in now are a lot better. Okay. But we are conscious of D K . Right. we have to do that as well. Right just quickly whip through because I'm a bit out of touch with what's go Erm Nick ? He's he's . Nick is diabetic. Yeah. And he he was ill I don't . Sorry? I don't want this minuting. Fine. He was ill back November, December, over Christmas, through to January. He was cleared by the doctor to come back because he had basically renal failure. Yes. Erm I am concerned about his eyesight. He's undergoing laser treatment at the minute isn't he? Yeah. Hello Yeah. He's undergoing laser treatment but as everybody will point out to you, when he's in the Tardis and he's operating the computer, even with his glasses on, he's reading it like this. I am concerned about his eyesight. The chap is very very experienced, he knows what he's doing and he's he you you couldn't ask for a better worker really but yes d I I do believe he's got a problem with his eyesight. Okay. Er affecting the way job? I'll get back to you in a minute then. Just give me a couple of minutes Cindy. Should he be should he be Yes. re re reassigned reassigned to something else ? Does he? I'm certainly looking at that trying to f find a hole, I mean unfortunately he's a very experienced charge-hand. Oh I know he is Erm yes er and and Okay I'll I'll get back to you in a couple of minutes. Thank you.. I think we've we've certainly got to look at him seriously Yeah. And say erm where he would be best used but there have been a couple of errors caused by his bad eyesight. What sort of errors? Erm Bulk loads. Bulk load a wrong formulation or a not a wrong formulation No no. erm the wrong amount being put onto a bulk order . He couldn't read, he assumed it said twenty cubic metres which it usually does. And it said thirty five. Yeah so instead of doing thirty five metres, he actually only did twenty. I mean as you as you say, Nick's a long serving and well experienced reliable And loyal employee. and a loyal employee Yeah. so it's not a case of er ditching the guy no no no No definitely not no. I mean that's that's not in question I just want to know you know try and get a bit of background, I had heard there was a possible problem erm and er how bad it was. I it's his eyesight. anything else I mean he's he's fine . Is it condition? Well he's actually having treatment for it now in fact he's gone today. Apparently they're giving him laser treatment for it. Is this likely to improve his eyesight ? To It's supposed to do yes. It's supposed to do but I think once his treatment has finished we w then w I we need to get an independent assessment reassess reassess his of it yeah. What other sort of job could he do erm that Could he cope as the assistant? Rather than the charge-hand? I mean we're asking Kevin to help him now. I mean Kevin is is helping him and he's he's checking a certain amount of his work but obviously he can't be there all the time. No. Erm I mean I'm concerned again through his eyesight that i were we to put him as the assistant and put him on a machine, that he might just put his hand somewhere and get his hand bloody trapped or whatever with his eyesight. Er which concerns me. When's this treatment likely to be finished? I don't know when I don't know we we haven't spoken to his doctor I mean He's also Professor ain't he as well? Who? Sorry. Professor gentleman I was under. And that's for protein as well. Oh that's right, he's not getting rid of his protein. That's right, he's the same as what I was. But it's his eyesight It's his eyesight that concerns me. This is on is he er on injections for diabetes or is he er I think he's Oh yeah he does, yeah yeah And everything's alright as I say until this problem with his eyesight. And it's recently. Well again we we don't know We we don't know because he hasn't said anything. Alright but now it is starting it is starting to deteriorate quite badly because people are now noticing. The fact he's brought a magnifying glass in. He's brought a magnifying glass in and he's he's also wearing glasses now. Okay. Right to be discussed. Right I've nothing else. Okay, got anything else? No thank you. No right, thank you gentlemen, ladies. Good afternoon. Item one on the agenda is the closure, disclosure of interest. Call upon the Director of Legal Services. There are dispensations from the Secretary of State for the Environment for Councillors ,,,, and because either of their own or their spouse's employment in the Health Service. That dispensation enables the members to to speak during the debate but not to vote, me having first recorded a disclosure of interest by those members. Does any other member or officer wish to disclose an interest in any matters to be dealt with at this meeting? Item two in minutes. I move that the minutes of the meeting of the Council held on the sixteenth of July be signed as a correct record. Is there a seconder? Lord Mayor N all those in favour please show. Item three on the agenda, apologies for absence. Er, Councillors ,, and my Lord Mayor. Are there any other Item four, renouncements. Copies of my announcements have been circulated to all members of the Council on the blue seats. However, I will read them to you. I have been asked by the building custodian acting on behalf of the fire service to inform you that, should the fire alarm sound, you are required to leave the building in an orderly fashion by the nearest exit. No-one will be allowed to stay or return until the building has been checked. It is my sad duty to inform members that Doctor , former City Treasurer of County Borough Council and an Honorary Freeman of the City died in August. I have written to Mrs on behalf of the Council expressing our sorrow and extending a message of support to her in her and her family at this sad time. I would like to invite members to stand and join me in a few moments silence in memory of Doctor . Thank you. On behalf of the Council I would like to offer sincere congratulations to and for their recent successes in the Britain in Bloom competition. Members may be aware that received the National Britain in Bloom award for 1990 in the town category and, as a result, were entered in the o entente fleural, a European competition similar to that of Britain in Bloom. I was very proud to say that finished in second place, a very creditable performan achievement, as I am sure members will agree. Members may also be aware that won the small town category in the in bloom competition, which resulted in entry to the National Britain in Bloom awards. Unfortunately were not successful in winning the small towns category on this occasion but nevertheless I am sure that members would want to congratulate on their considerable success in the regional finals of this prestigious competition. I have just learnt have recently achieved a cup double, being winners of the speedway star knockout cup and the B S P A cup, as well as finishing second in the Sunbright British League, their best performance ever. I am sure members will be aware speed speedway received financial assistance from the Council a few years ago when they ran into difficulties. It's a great tribute to the that they have managed triumph over adversity and achieved such tremendous results this season and I am sure that members would want me to place on record the Council's congratulations on their performance. Good that we're doing something good in sport, isn't it? Item five, inspection of internal documents. I call on the Director of Legal Ser There've been no complaints against restrictions, Lord Mayor. Petitions. First one is about dogs. I move that the petition to be presented from persons about opposing the making of byelaws and supporting of a poop scoop scheme be received. Is there a seconder? Seconded Lord Mayor All in favour please show? That is carried. Will the petitioners please come forward Wel welcome to the meeting you may s you may speak for not more than five minutes. Please start when you're ready. Thank you. My Lord Mayor, ladies and gentlemen. I represent the recently formed responsible dog ownership group which consists of people from most areas of the metropolitan district, both dog owners and non dog owners. On behalf of this group I would like to present to the Council a petition containing in excess of two thousand signatures from people throughout the metropolitan district who object to the originally reported suggestion that Metropolitan Council are proposing to make byelaws requiring that all dogs should be kept on leads at all times in all public places. We are aware that the suggestion relating to all public places has now been changed to, on all land owned by Metropolitan Council but this does not allay our concern. In fact, in our view, it would only aggravate the situation even further if such a byelaw was to be adopted, as most people within the district do not know which land is owned by the Council and which is not. We do appreciate that it is reasonable to impose restrictions on dogs in such areas as children's playgrounds, flower beds etcetera and we do support the extension of the byelaws relating to dogs fouling footways and grass verges and also the byelaws relating to the removal of canine faeces. However, we feel that such measures as those being mooted would only lead to further problems. It is the view of many of the vets in the district, the R S P C A Inspectorate and other dog handling professionals, that dogs must have adequate natural exercise and they should be given the opportunity to run freely as frequently as possible. Failure to provide such opportunities does cause dogs to become more excitable and aggressive and this in turn reduces the level of control experienced by the handler. A dog constantly restrained is an unhappy dog and an unhappy dog is more likely to become a problem dog. The responsible dog ownership group has received correspondence on this matter from the Animal Shelter, which is the agency currently being used by the Government to register pit bull terriers. They also express concern regarding this suggestion. It is their view that such a measure will be very counter-productive. To introduce further byelaws, with all the attendant costs of application to the Home Off , with all the attendant costs of such things as application to the Home Office to enact the byelaw, the probability of requiring to post notices on all Council-owned land etcetera so that the public knows which is Council-owned land would, in the opinion of the responsible dog ownership group, be a waste of the charge payers' money as we believe that the Council already have sufficient powers to deal with any problems arising by reference to the existing pleasure grounds byelaws and or the Dangerous Dogs Act. It should be noted that this view has recently been confirmed by the Council successfully prosecuting a person under the 1954 Pleasure Ground Byelaw. We understand that there is a dog working party of Council officers already established and we would formally request that the responsible dog ownership group be allowed a representative on that working party to ensure that the views of the two thousand plus petitioners and over two hundred and fifty persons who have written individual letters on the subject to Mister of the recreation division are considered. We would also hope that, should there be a need in the future to make a decision in Council regarding application for such a byelaw, you, the members, will give proper consideration to the views I have expressed on behalf of the ro responsible dog ownership group. In conclusion, I'd like to thank you very much for giving us the opportunity to present our petition. Thank you. Thank you. Does any member wish to move that the subject matter be referred to the appropriate member body? Councillor ? Seconded? All those in favour please show. Ok. It'll be mooted. Thank you very much . The second petition is about nursery classes at first school. I move that the petition to be presented from persons requesting the provision of a nursery class at this school be received. Seconded Lord Mayor All in favour? Ok. That is carried. Will the petitioners please come forward? Welcome to the meeting. You must speak for not more than five minutes. Please start when you're ready. My Lord Mayor. This is a petition for a nurs nursery class within the first school. My name is , I'm the chair of governors. I'm supported in this application by , the chair of the , Mister , deputy chair, and Mrs and , parent governors. is a compact area, now isolated by the traffic from the trunk road. The population is around five thousand three hundred. A questionnaire circulated by the Friends has identified one hundred and forty children living close to the school whose parents would wish nursery provision for them. Only one parent did not wish provision. Not all of could be sampled by the questionnaire but comparison with the 1991 census figures suggests that the number of children in the catchment area could be over three hundred. Of the fifty two children entering the school in September 1991 only six percent had received nursery education, compared with thirty nine percent from families who have moved in to in the past. To attend nearby nurseries involves car transport to or since bus timing is unsuitable. Places in those nurseries are now fewer. The only pre-school provision within is a playgroup which does not have its own premises. They now have only five weekly sessions instead of six, to comply with recent legislation. The playgroup leasers support this petition and say that they would have a valuable role preparing the children for nursery education, feeling that the children at four plus need more than the s playgroup can offer. Forty six point five percent of the children within the school come from Council rented housing, well above the thirty eight percent criterion for the school to receive social disadvantage allowance. Families in this category are normally without transport and therefore excluded from facilities outside . Frequently, they are unable to afford the playgroup fees and therefore miss all pre-school experience. This makes worse the problems of disadvantage and over-stretched resources, including time demands on working mothers. The school now has an increasing number of entrants with special needs, including children with support, children with behavioural difficulties and children already statemented. If had a nursery, all of these children would be able to start their education in their own community, without the expense and the disruption of being taxied out through the traffic jams. From an education viewpoint, all the children of would benefit from a natural flow from nursery into reception classes. Parents could be involved sooner in the childrens' educations. Better behaviour patterns could be established in a familiar place. The school at present has no spare classroom space and no likelihood of the number of children in decreasing. There is, however, room for a new building an play area. We urge you to consider our request for a nursery to be attached to the first school to give the children a head start in their education. We present our petition of nine hundred and fifty six names. Thank you. Si sit down a minute love Yes, well, it's alright. I haven't f I have something to say first. Does any member who wish to move the subject matter be referred to the appropriate member body? Councillor ? Councillor ? All those in favour? That's clearly carried. Thank you very much. Now the third petition is one to deal with a pelican crossing at Avenue. I move the petition to be presented from pers from persons requesting the provision of a pelican crossing at Avenue be received. Is there is a seconder? Thank you. All in favour? That is carried. Will the petitioners please come forward? Welcome to the meeting. You may speak for not more than five minutes. Please start when you're ready Lord Mayor, parents and staff at first school and local residents are requesting that the Council instal a pelican crossing on the site of the existing zebra crossing. There's been concern over this area for several years but nothing's actually been done. A similar request was approved three years ago but has never been implemented. Parents and residents were given the impression that something was going to be done and were very dismayed to find that nothing has been done yet, hence this petition. There has been one fatal accident on the crossing in recent years which was the tragic death of a young baby. In addition there have been several other accidents where cars have collided with each others. These are not actually recorded on police statistics but th nevertheless they could have been much more serious than in fact they were. I witnessed an accident where a vehicle collided into the back of another one, pushing it completely across the crossing. At the time there were parents and children waiting to cross over the crossing and it could have been much more serious. The crossing is situated on a very busy dual carriageway where the speed limit is forty miles an hour and I would point th point out this literature which says that at forty miles an hour, if children are knocked into, most children are killed. But in fact most of the vehicles travel at fifty or sixty miles an hour on this crossing. It's a very busy crossing. Some of the children at school went out to do a traffic count recently and there was so much volume of traffic that the children were not able to keep up with th putting the in the to keep up with the volume of traffic. Many motorists use the dual carriageway as an extension of the motorway. The dual carriageway is just of the motorway and people are gearing up to go on the motorway. The practice of having zebra crossings on any multi-lane road doesn't seem to be very common outside . Myself and my family have never seen it in our travels, bridges or or pelican crossings or subways would be provided instead. Visiting drivers to , after a few hours on the motorway, are hardly going to be looking for a zebra crossing on such a busy dual carriageway. We believe that the peli th the current zebra crossing is unfair and dangerous to both pedestrians and vehicle occupants. Heavy vehicles, slowing down to allow people to cross, are often overtaken by cars, unaware of the crossing and the reason for the slowing heavy vehicle. A bus stop just before the zebra crossing only confuses the issue further. A vehicle volunteering to stop at the zebra crossing can only stop one of the two lanes, with no control over the other. I've seen many examples of vehicles, further back, unaware of the situation, switching lanes and accelerating. Many people feel very strongly about the dangers. One resident I spoke to, whose house is immediately on the zebra crossing, reports that every day he dreads hearing the squealing of bl brakes and looking out of his window. Another local resident has had a child who's broken he broken his arm on the crossing when a car hit into him. A policeman who works in the area describes Avenue as a nightmare of a crossing and I and other parents who have to take children across would entirely agree with this. I cross the crossing eight times a day with my own two children and I would underline how hazardous it is. One lane, often heavy traffic, tends to stop while the other continues to rush past at speed and the pedestrians' view is obscured by the heavy traffic. It's very difficult with a parent with a pushchair or a double buggy and other children to bring across. Unaccompanied children also cross this crossing, and the elderly, and they are very vulnerable from vehicles which seem to appear out of nowhere. To conclude, the current zebra crossing is unfair to pedestrians and motorists. A previous request for a pelican crossing was approved in 1988 but was never implemented. Parents and staff at school, and local residents who use the crossing, are united in this petition for a pelican crossing to replace the current zebra crossing at the earliest opportunity. Thank you. Does any member wish to move that the subject matter be referred to the appropriate member body? Councillor Seconded? Seconded Lord Mayor All those in favour. That's clearly carried. Thank you very much. Thank you Item seven is membership of committees. I call upon Councillor to move a motion, details of which have been circulated. Moved Lord Mayor Seconded? All in agreement? Ok. Item eight, which is Policy and Resources Committee, there are no recommendations arising from the meeting on the twenty second of October. Which brings us on to item nine which is er employment action. I call upon Councillor to move the recommendations of the Community and Environment Services Committee, together with amendment A standing in his name. Second Second Call upon Councillor to move amendment H standing in her name Councillor , I believe you want to nominate Councillor , do you? I'm doing it for you. Councillor ? Thank you Lord Mayor. Michael Howard, Secretary of State for Unemployment, in announcing employment action in Parliament, stated, this Government, have placed policies designed to lead to job creation and they will succeed in the future as they they have succeeded in the past. With that sort of reference, it's no surprise that the Government's new plans to fiddle the unemployment figures is treated with disbelief and disdain. These policies have pushed unemployment up to two point five million and rising. That's despite thirty changes in the way that the unemployment figures are calculated. The real figure is closer to three and a half million. These policies have slashed manufacturing output and these policies have cut a massive two hundred and forty five million pound from the employment and youth training budgets for this year, which has led to a cut of eighty thousand places. When the issue of employment action was discussed at the Community and Environment Committee in September, Councillor was clinging desperately to her history books. She told us that in 1979 unemployment was increasing at the astronomical figure of two thousand three hundred a week. I will not seek to justify this, any more than I would expect the Tories to justify the three day week, the Suez Crisis or any other element of their sordid history, for what we are discussing is a situation facing thousands of people in this district today, and what we are gonna do to ensure that they have a future. The situation today is not that two thousand three hundred people are joining the dole queues every day but that ov every week, but over twenty thousand. In there are four hundred and seven jobs registered with the Job Centre and twenty three thousand five hundred and twenty six registered unemployed. The situation today is that there is not enough training places for the people who want them. The situation today is that many sixteen to eighteen year olds, who were unable to get a training place, are disbarred from getting income support, and the situation today is that this country has the lowest level of skilled workers in the European Community. And this is the result of Government policies that succeed. God help us when they fail. In the cuts in the training budget this year have led to over two hundred trainee places disappearing. One training organisation, which had taken a twenty three percent cut in funds in 1990 ninety one, had to take a further twenty percent cut this year, and the people who are worst affected by these cuts were the very people that the Tory Party had been crying crocodile tears over for so long. Women returners, the black and Asian community, people with physical disability and people with learning difficulties. They suffer disproportionately because when the cuts come it's the special needs support that many of these groups need that was the first to go. It was the help with literacy and numeracy. It was the help with English as a second language. It was the initial training that helped to boost an individual's confidence. These policies have ruined the opportunities and dreams of thousands of people throughout this district and have been carried out with no regard to the drastic effects they have had on people's lives. But wait, on the political horizon there comes a general election. Panic in Tory Party central office. What can we do to make it look like we care about the unemployed? What can we do to make it look like we actually care about training? The first thing you do is announce half way through a year that they're gonna put back some, but not all, of the money they cut from the budget. There is no guarantee that this money will be available next year so training providers are now scrabbling around trying to work out ways of providing training up to the required standard in six months instead of the full year Those against? yes That is lost, thirty to forty nine. Those in favour of the substantive motion incorporating amendment A please show. Please show That is carried, forty nine to thirty two. . We now move on to item ten on the agenda, Local Management of Schools. In accordance with standing order A twelve little C in force at the time, Councillor of m notice of motion on Local Management of Schools was referred by the Council t on twenty third of April 1991 to the Education Committee. The report of the Committee is set out in document T referred to on the agenda. At the same time, at the same Council meeting, three amendments to the motion were formally moved by Councillor , Councillor and ex-Councillor respectively and seconded and were also submitted to the Committee. I call upon Councillor to move amendment C standing in his name. Seconder? Seconded Lord Mayor My Lord Mayor, the Local Management of Schools scheme er was reviewed first in the light of consultation which went on during its first full year of operation. It was by then already obvious that the schools had overcome their first reservations er about what the scheme had to offer and it was so obvious that they deserved recognition for their efforts that it led to my colleagues, Councillor and putting down the motion to Council in April of this year, drawing attention to the continuing success in schools throughout the district of the Local Management initiative. Instead of joining in with my group in recognising this success and congratulating the managers, the party opposite showed its usual churlishness by trying to congratulate themselves for some reason or other. They've shown opposition to the introduction of L M S right from the start and put every obstacle possible in the way of its success, and its implementation, and yet there they were congratulating themselves on how well it was working. They tried to cloud the issue even further by mixing the question of L M S with the reforms which my group brought in while we were in control of the Council which is in stark contrast to the true situation. The Local Management of Schools was due to be introduced from 1990 and the Conservative group in had the foresight to see that if the scheme was given a fair wind, and the full support of the Council, it would come to be recognised as one of the greatest reforms of education. We realised that there could be some difficulties, and some apparent injustices might show up, but due to great consultative work put in by Councillors , and Mrs , often against great vilification and personal attack, many per problems were sorted out as they arose but we saw that i in April motions in amendments we see that it takes three full paragraphs of the amended motion to see that they deign to welcome initiatives which extend participation in decision making to schools, governors and parents. But note the crudity of that paragraph, which still doesn't give credit to the head teachers and governors for the way in which they've worked, and the success which they achieved. Then in the final paragraph of their er amendment the attempt to crow that the Labour Group has allowed schools to take full L M S when they were ready. What arrogance that is, that they allowed the schools to take on the full role when over fifty percent of em were already willing and anxious to do so. The arrangement of the Local Management of Schools is one of the best initiatives of the Conservative Government and it has freed schools from the heavy-handed control of Local Government, and in particular that of Labour controlled Authorities because it's a step into the unknown for some, with obviously some doubt at first, and many Labour Groups fed on those doubts with lies and threats but nevertheless it was taken up wholeheartedly by many schools. In we were fortunate in that the time of the introduction of L M S coincided with the all too brief period when this group was in control of the Council and as the window of opportunity opened to get off to a flying start hear hear So the Local Authority was in the forefront of efforts to make Local Management a success. By April 1989 every school had a computer system to help with School Management. Outside London we were the first L E A to realise that this would be necessary. We've invested well over a million pound in micro-computers for the teaching of pupils right across the three phases of first, middle, and upper schools. Support for the new governors undertaking the management was without equal. A widespread training programme was carried out to help governors and schools staff to meet their new tasks and obligations. So that some two thousand people were involved in a major training programme. A Governor Support Unit was set up and is still in operation and working well today. The National Curriculum was introduced also, alongside L M S and we're already able to see the success of that now. Testing of pupils has been introduced and is continuing to be improved in the light of experiences of its first year of work in spite of the criticisms, which are of method rather than of reason. We can see that it's gonna provide parents and pupils with the continuous necessary information which they need to see how the they're wor working out, how they're progressing, and the need for further improvement. We're now looking forward to teacher appraisal and the opportunities that this will give s school staff to enhance their own future development. All of these initiatives were made more possible as a result of, and parallel to, Local Management of Schools and all in spite of the petty opposition of so many Labour Local Government controlling groups, who just can't bear the thought that the L E A is at last breaking free of absolute Local Government control. In spite of the wording of the motion put forward by Labour members, I would point out that, under Conservative control, has spent three hundred and fifty eight pound per head compared with the Metropolitan District who average three hundred and seventeen. I'm still talking about when we were in control. Forty one per head more than the average of all comparable Authorities. These figures were confirmed even more when we saw when we saw that we spent twenty five pound more a head of population on our schools than the average Metropolitan District. This included spending almost twenty six a head more on secondary education and nearly five pound a head more on special education. To complete this numerical picture, the average spend per head of further education was almost fifty five pound per head, nearly five pound fifty more than the average Metropolitan District. So much then for the silly part of the Labour resolution of last April which tries to congratulate the Labour group on rescuing the L M S scheme. It needed no rescuing. I can assure them, and the people as a whole, that the L M S scheme had been born, was living and progressing well when Labour took control of the Council. It was already making such good progress that it's been able to grow and improve in spite of so much petty interference as the Labour Group has been able to put on it. Thank goodness that time too is passing and it won't be long now before Local Management of Schools and Local Financial Management is fully implemented and beyond the reach of the vicious Labour attacks on it's future. hear hear So, my Lord Mayor, I am sure that the original resolution of Councillor and , noting the continuing success of the Local Management Initiative, was the right one. The resolution then being flashed out by the amendments of Councillor and recognising the work of members of governing bodies given so freely. Also the importance which will come to be valued in future of the standard assessment tests. You've only to read the new Parents Charter, which John Major is introducing, to realise this. It will make it possible to have annual written reports on each child's progress. Regular reports will be made by independent inspectors on the strengths and weaknesses of each school and published tables will give parents the ability to compare the performance of local schools. This will then overcome this silly bigotry of the Labour Group in trying to ostracise the opted-out school in and the College, when this Charter is in place, we'll be able to compare every facet of education across the district because the results will be published for all to see and these two schools will not be able to be frozen out of that exercise. All of this is coming about as a direct result of the original plan for the Local Management of Schools and it's continuing success, in spite of the Labour Group and not because of it, and so I move the amendment my Lord Mayor. Councillor It i my Lord Mayor, it is indeed colossal cheek and pure hypocrisy on the part of the Tory Group, and particularly on the part of Councillor , to be putting forward the resolution congratulating schools on their success in responding to the introduction of Local Management, when they and the Government, between them impose such conditions that could only lead to chaos and disorder. The Tory Group, you will all recall, imposed l Local Management on all except small schools in the shortest possible time. And whatever Councillor says, there was an inadequate period for that essential preparation, both within the directorate and for heads and teachers, to allow them to come to terms with what Local Manage of the schools meant. Why did they do this? It's clear now, if it wasn't clear then, that they were willing to sacrifice the well-being of schools, of their staff and pupils, for the glory of their leader and for national recognition of the then Councillor , as the most ardent of Thatcher disciples and ensuring for him another step towards that coveted safe Tory seat For that end, for that end, you people over there, who took a decision to implement Local Management at the earliest possible time, regardless of the state of preparation of each particular school, regardless of the resources of staff and equipment and, if that was not enough, you also introduced a cut of thirteen million pounds in education funding. Can anyone wonder that disbelief and despondency settled upon many schools in time to give way to anger and protest at the possibility of carrying out tasks that has been imposed on them under impossible conditions. Are your memories so short over there, or is it that you have deliberately forgotten or ignored the protests of that time. Do you not remember that two hundred head teachers gathered and protested and handed back their budgets? Do you not remember that when Labour took over You do in fact remember as c Councillor has said, that when Labour took over and schools were given the chance to change their minds and withdraw at least to change y to change the decision and withdraw from immediate L M S, then half of the schools chose to delay it's introduction. Surely by that time it had become clear that if the Government plans for Local Management were ill-conceived, that the plans for Local Management were ill-conceived and had not been properly thought out. Surely by that time many of you must have realised that had got you into a right pickle over L M S and that you some of you I believe felt that but none of you spoke out about it. It was left to the Labour Group, on taking over control, to find a way out of the morass that you had created. Since then we have redirected plans to ease the burden on schools, given recognition to the increased work load for clerical staff and to the importance of the work they do. A great deal of time and energy has gone into dealing with anomalies and revising the formula for funding so that it distributes more fairly on the basis of need. It is much improved but still does not deal satisfactorily with disadvantages that some schools face. Many Heads have expressed to me their appreciation of what the lu Labour Group has done for them to rescue them from the plight that the Tories imposed on them. But make m n no mistake, make no mistake, the situation is still difficult, because the Government imposes conditions and changes are all so often that the resolution of problems is difficult, as you will see from the Director of Education's statement. Problems problems over the alloc because the allocation is mainly based on pupil numbers and not on pupil's needs, by the use of average salaries and not actual salaries, by changes in level of grants for support and training, and the needs of the school and the children. And we still have L M S to com t to face. Schools are indeed to be congratulated in what they have done in the face of what you pr prepared for them. Only the the congratulations are implicit it seems to me in what you have said to the Labour Group for finding a way out of the problems that you had created. Schools recognise this and you too in your hearts will recognise this. Only because of Labour proposals and actions have schools managed to deal as well as they have with L M S. Congratulations, I say, go to the Labour Group. Councillor , Councillor Thank you Lord Mayor on about and I suspect that Councillor must be on about . The Conservative Group do indeed congratulate the Government for it's far-sighted legislation to make our schools more accountable to the people they serve. hear hear Local Management of Schools has been to many of our schools. Head teachers and governing bodies under L M S control their own spending and determine their own priorities. The Conservative Group put forward proposals to give this power to the schools as soon as possible, as Councillor did say, and many of our schools took advantage, around fifty percent I believe . Despite this, the Labour Group did persuade some schools to delay implementation of the L M S Initiative and I rather suspect that some of these schools regret this decision today. The schools who took the challenge are happy to be in control of their own affairs. Councillor has said that we have, that his group do not believe in the testing of seven year olds. He claims that it will be a waste of time and money. This is a disgrace and wi we will never agree with him on this issue. It would deny our better schools informing parents on how they were doing. The Government's policies have meant more choice sorry, and higher standards in educational spending per pupil. This is over forty percent above the level in Labour's last year. Allowing for inflation the total budget for L E A's this year is around seventeen point five billion pounds, nearly sixteen percent more than last year. Parents have been given a bigger role than ever before. They can pick and help their schools to which they send their children. They can play a very very key part on governing bodies. We welcome these initiatives. Labour would cut choice and standards by scrapping the C T C's, grammar schools and grant maintained schools. What a disgrace. In conclusion, Lord Mayor, the Conservatives welcome the fact that head teachers now control their own ship. Teacher, pupils and parents now know who their captain is. The Conservatives launched this ship and we will do all in our power to stop the Labour Group of Group from scuttling it. My Lord Mayor Councillor That's you I'd just like to remind Councillor of one or two things and then spend a little bit of time talking about some of the gimmicks that the Tories have introduced over this past ten years. I'm glad Councillor reminded er Councillor reminded Councillor erm about the introduction of L M S, when over two hundred teachers did appear outside to protest about the introduction of it, along with cuts in budgets. And erm, whilst those schools are still suffering from under-funding, at least they can er gain some erm solace, consolation from the fact that er the Tories seem to be able to replace their chairs, opposition spokespersons of education almost at will. Councillor did in fact try to take some credit for one or two things in his speech. He talked of the Governor Support Unit and I'd like to remind Councillor and his group that they were responsible for taking over a hundred posts out of the administrative section of . The Governor Support Unit, Lord Mayor, did not exist under their structure. Councillor talked about er spending levels and he may be interested to know that the N U T have done a recent survey of education spending and found to be sixty first out of a hundred L E A's surveyed, so that doesn't quite stack up with some of his statistics. Of course, as Councillor rightly pointed out, they did take thirteen million pounds out of the budget. As far as the Parents Charter is concerned, that document is gathering dust in many school cupboards as governors, including some Tory governors, refuse to send it out. It means nothing in terms of dealing with the many problems before education today. Councillor and Councillor mentioned testing and they're dead right, I oppose it, it's an irrelevance, a complete distraction. What they want is a league table of young children, those that pass and those that fail. Can I le remind Councillor though that five out of six schools in his ward recently sent a letter to the D E S and the Education Minister opposing testing in schools. Lord Mayor Can I say, Lord Mayor Can I say, Lord Mayor, that I am not, I am not a vindictive person but did grammar really expect to get away with including the Christmas dinner in their schools meals budget? That is, that is the whole truth Lord Mayor, and nothing but the truth. and, Lord Mayor, can I mention the disgraceful behaviour of that god father of the City Who? in defending the school against the advice of his own officials, who supported in its findings backed by the audit report into those figures on the schools meals budget. If any school in this Authority, including tries to take more than they deserve, tries to be greedy in taking more money from the rest of schools, I will oppose it and I hope every member of this Council does too. Moving on to that other well known gimmick, that elitist Tory academy up the road called the College. Can anyone, Lord Mayor, condone spending seventy nine times more money on the children of that school You're lying than the, the truth, Councillor , nothing but the truth . Can anyone condone that sort of spending when schools are crumbling, when we're short of teachers, books and equipment for the National Curriculum. No, Lord Mayor, no one with any justice could condone that sort of spending. I am extremely pleased to be able to say that shortly, Lord Mayor, we will be able to consider the future of the T T C under a Labour Government and under a Labour controlled Council, and I can't wait. I can't wait to allow all children to benefit from that eight million pound school up the road. Can I just, Lord Mayor, point to one or two of the inequalities with the present L M S scheme, and in particular the average national teacher costs? It's something that the Government have continuously ignored but is a major problem to many schools. In this Authority that one proposition stands to lose some fifty teachers to schools and it's far worse in many other districts. What it's essentially about is getting rid of the most experienced teachers in the district. Can that be good for education? It can't surely, but it's what the Government want to do with L M S. Of course, they have a real agenda behind Local Management which is more to do with market- led economy education, competition, evasiveness, elitiveness, the end of the Local Authority. And they're using the principle of devolution and delegation, of participation in decision making, as a vehicle for bringing that about. Councillor is on record, in fact not long after taking Right we're ready to start. Erm how long have you lived in the flats? Er two year. Two years you've lived in the flats? Yeah. So so've you and your girlfriend and daughter came in moved into f into the flats two years ago. Erm where did you live before? Er down at Farm,. Mhm. So did you actually decide you wanted to come to the flats, was it was it a decision No, what actually happened was er, we was at with her mum Yeah. And then we had er our daughter and so the house was a bit packed cos her mum's got a lot of kids Mhm. So we asked council if they could get us a place and they offered us a flat at first over the other side, I don't know what walk it was on, and they says, You can stay there until we get an house for you. Mhm. Cos there weren't supposed to be moving people into the flats with kids, you know with them falling down stairs and things like that. And then that one fell through because they hadn't done the repairs on, so they gen us this flat. And so we moved into it and then we've been here ever since. Mhm. Did you did you originally when you actually erm applied to get a council place did you did you s did you want to move to the flats here or did you apply for put other No. names down. No, we didn't want to move to the flats. We we wanted somewhere round the area,or Valley, but we didn't want to come to the flats, no way. But it was a case of suits it's a case of actually it was here where it was easy to get a flat than places anywhere else, it was a case of less waiting Well time. The case was that her mum's house was overcrowded. Yeah. So we had to get out anyway, and And it the sooner the better. But actually it was worse coming here. Mhm. So erm how old how old are you and your girlfriend? Are you both? I'm twenty five, she's twenty. Daughter's two. Daughter's two. Erm terms of living in, you've lived here, obviously where you lived before, how does it compare? How do you find it living in the flats compared with anywhere else you've lived? Er bad. Yeah, in what ways ? Bad. Er well compared with erm and Valley, there's more violence round the flats, more litter, there's more everything really, you know. More trouble and everything. You see at at you can walk around, go in a pub, have a drink, come out and nobody'll say anything to you, there's no trouble round there. I know they've got a bit of crime rate with burglaries but it's not actual violence round , and round Valley you can do the same, go in a pub and come out, and er no one 'll say nothing. But round here you could just walk er to the shop and get mugged or you know your girlfriend could get raped, kids can get assaulted, anything. So i it's a bad area. It's a no go no go area. Do you ever do you ever go out to the to pubs round here? Yeah but I always, we always go out with her family. There's al , it's like next Friday we're all planning to go out but there'll be fifteen of us, see we all go out in a big group. So you go, I mean round here is that? Yeah, well we're starting off round first, we have a drink in Yeah. So you know we've got enough courage to come down this end. Even though I live down here, you know, but I don't go out. I never go out on me own. Mhm, so do you fi , yeah, do your family often come down here? No, this this'll be the first time they've come down here in about three or four month. Yeah, whereas, whereas it would be Like it's her mum's birthday. Yeah. She likes to go to the nightclub er across the road from the , at the bottom of Road it is. Mhm. She always likes to go there when it's birthdays and things like that, special occasions. Mhm. That's the only time we come down . Mhm. But they wouldn't they don't come down normally to ? No. They'd never come down. And is that cos of the That's cos of all the trouble round this area. Any worries of that to come down Yeah. they they might be at risk. Yeah. So have you ever, in terms of the crime, have you ever been affected by it in any way in person? You know or anyone in your family? Yeah? No not really. We've only had one bit of trouble once, and that was when we first moved on. There's some people at the flat out there and they used to bricks at the windows and things like that. Still got an hole here, that was just with a pellet gun that was. How long di how long ago did that happen? That was when we first moved in. That was when you first moved in? Yeah. Mhm. Never bothered repairing it cos it's a waste of time. It's gonna get . Do you know when you actually go out does it actually, you know cos it used, you said in terms of, does it actually worry you going out, do you actually f think there's a risk ? Yeah, when I go to the shop, I either take the wooden rolling pin or a knife. You do, is it cos that's yeah. And that's just over to the shop there, just over the at the other side of the road. I always take some sort of you know defensive thing. And did you ever do so when you lived elsewhere, di you ever feel you, the need to No. o, so it's No. just since you've been living here? It's just here , Yeah. yeah. Erm in ter in terms of the erm crime why do why do you think that there is so much crime here? Well I think it's er an area that's most of the people are unemployed for a start Yeah. and there's no facilities for kids, you know young kids ranging up to the age of er about sixteen seventeen. I mean there's not many discos round here what you can see for kids. I know they've got a community centre but that don't you know have everything for people. Nowadays there's varied taste isn't there? Er I mean some people like reggae music, some people like body popping and things like this, there's all different taste. So Yeah. the council have got to try and cater for every one. Cos it's gonna be a yeah. community. Is it that encou , do you think that encourages people to get in trouble, the fact that there's so little Yeah, I suppose it does in a way. I mean cos That, yeah. the the flats is er a a no go area sort of thing and a kid'll come along and spray summat on a wall and next day three kids'll come along and spray things on the wall, so that you've got more and more graffiti going all over the place, more and more rubbish, more and more people coming to the flats just to get into trouble. Mhm. How do you fell as a person that in here do you feel any diff , as a person sort of living here compared to with erm with your prev No, I just feel more frightened , that's all. Feel more frightened? Cos you never know if someone's gonna bust your door in one night and raid your house or anything like that. I mean you could be laying in bed, which are downstairs, and someone could throw summat through a window. Which is . So do you any kind of precaution to actua against that kind of thing happening? Well I've fitted extra chain locks on the door, and extra locks on me door downstairs. I'm not so bothered about the windows so much cos if they break someone's bound to hear them smash. I don't know if they'd be bothered, but they'd hear Mhm. them. In terms of facilities you you've got a young daughter, what about, what are the facilities like round here in terms of erm I mean. I haven't seen any anyway. Nothing at all? Nothing. I suppose if there was I wouldn't take her anyway, not not round this area. See at I can just let her go and play out on the park, or at anything, you know with the other kids, but round here you can't. Mhm. Cos you never know if they're gonna get into trouble with other people, or whether they're gonna get er sexually assaulted or raped or mugged or owt. In streets you can never tell round here. So what do you, if had er, in terms of, how do you feel about bringing up children round here, what do you what do you feel about that, bringing up? I wouldn't, I'd have You wouldn't. to move. you've said it's that If if my daughter was say seven or eight now she wouldn't be attending any of the schools round here cos I wouldn't let her. No chance. Mm, so what kind of damage do you think you could do if if you say you wouldn't let them, so what ma what makes you feel that way? Well it's just that the fact that there's more muggings and things going round this area than any other part of . Mhm. I mean there's proof there cos five just in four days. Because that's a list he's, of erm, he's showing there of crimes that have been committed in this area er since That's just within a week. In the last week, yeah. I mean there's five robberies there and er assault on a five year old kid. Mhm. And you can't bring people up in that environment anyway . Mhm. Yeah, how do f , in terms of the police, I mean how do, what kind of work do they do in d in response to the crime? Well I don't know cos I've never actually seen any police in these flats. Yeah so do they do they walk around at all or? I've never seen them walk round the flats, I've seen the odd one or two with the security guards, Yeah. but then there's about four or five of them then. They never come round on their own, and you you see them in the daytime, you know probably one or twice a week. Mhm. But at night-time you never see them at all. Yeah and what do they do, I mean do they s They just walk round, they don't do nothing, they'll probably just walk up this and then c come out the other end and go back to the police station. And they never actually see them walk round where the all the empty flats are as well. Mhm. And some people that's where you'll probably get mugged anyway, if you're safe from well from one road cutting through the flats where all the empty flats are that is the point where they'd probably get mugged and assaulted and raped and God knows what. Mhm. And i in terms of, you know in terms of the image that Green's got, the flats, do you, can you remember before you came into here you you knew you had, obviously had a cer the area had a certain image, do you think that image is fair or not? No I think it's worse. Think it's worse than the I think it's a lot worse. A lot worse than you expected? Yeah. I mean when I when I first heard about Green flats, I thought, Well it can't be that bad you know. you know just cos there's a few fights and drunks down there, I thought it can't be that bad. And when I come here and I lived here for a few year and then really saw what it was like, I thought, God, never again. No way am I living in another flat, no chance. I mean my parents won't visit me cos I living here. So I have to go up and visit them, but her parents never come down here, only once in a blue moon when they feel like it. So we're losing out as, you know we're losing out all the time. No one that no one 'll visit you. So you have to keep spending your money to go and visit them. And yet you know you think families'd stick together in this day and age. You know like if you go and visit them sometimes they come down and visit you, but they don't. Cos they're frightened of coming down here. Mhm. My dad he he usually goes to a pub er it is on I think it's Road but instead of coming this way he goes all the way into town up the other end, you know past the Hotel, he lives at Mhm. Valley. And he goes all the way down that end and round. Right down past the big dole office in town, up that way, and then that way, instead of coming through Green. Just to avoid Green ? Just to avoid it. So how do you so how do you feel of the fact the fact that the flats are coming down shortly, how do you feel about that? Relieved. You feel relieved? Yeah. Cos I know that once the flats are down it's bound to be a better area but ten again it'll probably shove trouble to another area, say like . Or Fields, it'll just shoving trouble at somewhere else. Mhm. You know when they pull the flats down they should say, Right, we'll put fifty families in , fifty families in , fifty families at , you know what I mean, to to split all the people what's in the flats up into different areas cos most of the people in the flats, you know they all stick together sort of thing. Mhm. And if if a certain family gets stuck in with another family and they're both trouble causers and they both get moved to the same area it's gonna cause trouble in that area so they ought to say, Right fifty there, fifty there, Mhm. you know. Split them up that way. How do you find the actual, what do you f do you think of the actual flat itself, leaving out the problems that outside that you've, in terms of crime you've referred to, what do you think of the actual flat itself? Rubbish. Rubbish? Yeah. Yeah. Erm I mean the front room's a a long, you can't put your furniture how you really want it you see cos you've got a bit sticking out there and then you've got this big sticking out here. I I mean if these petitions weren't in it'd just be a square room. And then you've got the stairs which haven't got no door on, so the kids can fall down the stairs. And then the bedrooms are cold and damp. You've got a lot of damp in these houses. And big draughts coming under the doors. I can't complain about the windows cos o you know, I haven't had no draughts really but then you get parasites you know like fleas and bugs coming through these ventilations. And is that, does that, is that ma , is that a major problem, has that been through since I've I've no idea if it's a major problem or not. But every every time we put our heating on you can guarantee you always get fleas,so we we d we don't have the heating on no more, we just leave it off. I don't know where they come from, they're breeding . Do you leave it off even though you're paying, you'll be paying won't you for the heating and it's Yeah but you st no you you we pay er twelve pound fifty four a fortnight, That's for that's for heating, yeah . That's for the heating, whether we use it or not. So therefore you're a you're actually So you're still losing out Yeah. anyway. I think they should've had meters on the heating or summat. Mhm. So you're paying for he you're paying for the Yeah. We're paying for the heating. heating and yet you're finding that because of the fleas that you you don't want to put it on so you're los Yeah, we can't put the heating on. you're losing out, yeah. Mind it's pretty warm anyway without the heating on really. But when you want to heat the bedrooms up you can't, unless you only have it on for a bit you know. And then you have to keep, see in one bedroom we've got a, you've got a ventilator Mhm. and that's where the back door is, in the other bedroom you've got a ventilator you know but it's not actually facing into the bedroom, it's facing outwards towards the bathroom, you know and the stairs Mhm. so you're not getting no heating there, in that bedroom at all. cos there isn't no ventilator in it, and that's the one we sleep in cos we're frightened of people coming through the back door in the night, you know kicking in the back door, so we sleep in the other room. And our our the baby she sleeps in bed with us, you know cos we're frightened in case owt gets bunged through the window, you know it might hit her, so we put her in bed with us. To in order to protect her. Yeah. Yeah. See, she's got a single bed down there but we don't let her sleep in it just she's stopping in bed with us, cos no way am you know we might be sleeping here, petrol bomb might come through your window on a night when there's a riot on. You know it might land on her her bed, see if it landed on our bed at least you can chuck the blankets off and protect her and take her out of the room, but when she's in her own bedroom in a single bed you can't, you can't do things like that. Mhm. Do you does she ever does she ever play out at all or? No. We never let her out, the only time she goes out is when I take her to the shop. And when we go visiting her mum and my mum, that's the only time she goes out. Mhm,going back to the actual erm house itself, you ever had, do you, have you had any problems with repairs at all or have you found them okay when ever you've had any. Have there been minor things that have gone wrong? things that are a bit, the repairs have been alright really. Yeah. Have you ever had to, have you ever had to actually, have you had any major things that have gone wrong in the house or had it been okay? No, the only thing what went wrong really was er a woman but that was in the top flat. Yeah. She had a bust pipe and it all kept dripping through our ceiling. Yeah. You know and it even went through to the next floor you know into the bedroom like. Mhm. But they repaired it. It took them what she reported it as soon as the office opened and they'd done it at about ten twelve time. It took a long time for the plumber to come round but at least it was done, you know that day. So I haven't no quarrels with about the repairs. Mhm. And they come round and sweep up outside or you know near enough every day. So repairs and in general 's alright. Since you since you came into the flats have you have you been working at all or have have you been erm No. unemployed, yeah. I've been unemployed. Do you think, yeah. There's another problem is, say if you want to order a catalogue Yeah. from a you know a mail firm, you can never get one. You can't? No. So you've tried that have you tried that? Yeah. Yeah. We've tried loads. We've ever tried renting the television. You can't You know a colour television, cos you know we've only got that one. But you can't, it's just impossible, cos you live in the ar , you know Green, you're like a second class citizen, you know. yeah. You're classed, you're classed as a reject sort of thing cos you're living in these flats. Is that by er do you, is that just, is that with rental firms or is that, do you think that's general, full stop? I think it's in general. You know just cos, it's just cos it's a bad area, that's that's all it is. It's not I mean when someone calls Do they tell you Green a bad area, it's not the whole of Green, it's just the flats. Cos this is where most of the trouble comes from, when the riots are on, there's people come out of the flats to join the riots. You know most of the people what was in the riots come from the flats. And what happened then do you know? All the shops was boarded up and everything. So I think th the flats is the main problem round the Green area Mhm. anyway. So when you said about a second rate citizen yeah? Yeah. Is that are you saying that you fee you feel living here that as a second rate citizen or you think other people see you I think other people see you as a second class citizen. You know cos, it you was living at Yeah. Like her mum, she's sent off for a cat catalogue, she got it, you know within thirteen days I think it was. But she got it. And she could order from it Mhm. and get things from it. And her sister who lives next door but one from her mums, she done the same thing. So we've had to get things out of her sister's catalogue if we want them. Cos the mail order round here you can't get one. You just can't get one. I've tried it, just about every s catalogue there is, near enough. And they've just said, and and they've said no they're not giving you a reason or They they just reject it, you know they just say no. Sometimes we don't even get a letter back. And with with when you s said in terms of renting a T V, what's happened with them when you tried? Well I went down to a rental firm, you know Yeah. in town, and I gave them me name and me address, and then they sent a letter saying, No, you can't have one. So I went down and said, Well why I can't have one? And they says, Well a person who lived in your flat before you had a telly, you know and they gave me some excuse, you know that the the the person who lived in here before me had ripped them off and they says, How do we know that you're not that person, you know things like that. So I tried another one and they says, We can't give you one cos it's a bad address. So So they said it's a bad address. Yeah, so that means that people who've been living here before has has been ripping catalogues off and things like that. Cos I I as soon as I moved here I wanted a catalogue and a telly. Cos I never had one anyway. You know cos we was more or less forced to move into the flat, erm under the circumstances, but we just heard no can't have one. Bad address, bad area, bad everything. Do you use, in ter in terms of going onto erm local shops, do you use those at all? No I usually shop at myself, Yeah. but if I find I want little bits an bobs what I need I just pop over the road. Is that, why is it that, is it because you don't think the, why is it you don't use the local shops, is it because erm you you prefer to go elsewhere? Well I I go to cos it's it's cheaper anyway. Yeah. And we we go in car shopping and we always get our s shopping from , you know with it being cheap, and we go in her brother's car, and so we don't have to carry it back all the way from , but round here you see you'd have to go out, you'd have to take the kid with you, and your girlfriend, and then you've got to come back with all the shopping and your kids as well. So So it's more convenient for you. Yeah. It's just more convenient, that's all. I think the shops are alright round here but you know it's just a few of the shops are a bit, you know, funny. Mhm. T er erm moving onto erm the area of erm, the fact that obviously a lot of people round here have got very limited incomes. Erm in t , how di , does that in any way affect you know the kind of things you eat or in terms of diet? Well I suppose so yeah cos when you're on supplementary benefit Yeah. You don't get in enough money anyway really. So wha I think that leads to crime in s as well in a way. Mhm. So getting back you know the fact that you said about a limited income so what does that in terms of foods you buy, what kind of things do you find do you buy actually s Well I I don't I don't go out and buy biscuits. Yeah. Cos to me that is wasting money, you know we just, I just buy the essentials. You know what you need for your dinner. I never buy it of fortnightly so I I'll go to the shop and I'll say, Right, probably seven tins of beans, seven tins of peas, er you know a few tins a few beans er tins of spaghetti and things like that you know, bits and bobs, but I'll still get a joint for me Sundays. Yeah. You know for me Sunday dinner. And food a week we'll have fishfingers or beefburgers or things like that, pastas. So I have to I I sit there the week before I get the you know before I get the money, I sit there and work it all out. You know what what I'm gonna have for each meal over the So that And I have to sort it out, sit there, sort it out and then work out how much it's gonna come to, and then I know then when I go to the shop I know what to get, and I know when it goes in the cupboard I know that I'll have a meal for every day of the week. You know at least one big cooked meal. And I always buy a bag of potatoes, you know a big Mhm. bag, rather than keep buying it in, a couple of pound and a couple of pound there. Cos And that lasts you? That lasts me about two and half week. Mhm. A fifty six pound bag. Milk, we get milk tokens anyway. with being, having a kid not long ago. So do you have milk delivered? No I nip over to the shop and get it from near. You know you get seven bottles for a token. And you have to pay a penny for each bottle, summat like that. But in one, in another shop you see, it's twenty five pence. So I was caught with these milk tokens . At it's two pence. In ter in terms of getting milk delivered, I mean do many people get milk delivered or I've never seen a milkman round here Isn't ? I've never seen one. Do you do you think you said that you're not sure whether the milkman comes round the flats. No idea, I've never seen one round here. And I've been down here two year. Mhm. I've only seen an ice cream van about four times since I've been here. What do you think when you actually erm when you look ahead to erm moving out of the flats and finding somewhere else, where do you w where do you want to go to anyway? Probably back round to . You'd like to go back to ? Yeah, cos it's a better atmosphere, at least you can walk round the streets safe. Have you managed to make, have you made any friends at all, in the flats? No. None a well I I don't associate with people in the flats. I just keep myself to myself. Mhm. So why do f why do you feel that why why is it, you said you don't associate with the people in the flats, why is that? Cos I might go out one night and I might say I might meet up with a with a another white man or another you know a black man or something, Yeah. And the next thing I could be on to drugs, you know er, putting heroin in me arm, I could be doing anything. Which is stupid you know. Mhm. So I just keep myself to myself. Cos the area's got a bad name for drugs anyway. In terms of drugs, yes,I mean is that, do you actually know of of erm is it is it what you've actually seen that makes you No, one of our friends she's on drugs. Yeah. And He he's been on everything here. Yeah, how did he does he live ? He's he's still on them. He lives in the flats. So is it, was it, was she on dr erm drugs before he came to the flats or is it No. since coming to the flats? No, he wasn't on drugs before cos he used to live at Valley. And he was alright then. It's just since he's been in the flats. Now he's associated with the wrong sort of guys, so he's gotten on to that stuff. And when I see , I thought, No way, no way am I gonna do things like that. So that's the main reason why you keep to yourself, Eh? you don't think, you think I mean he's been round here a few times, Yeah. You know and smoking his joints and things like that, but I never touch it. I used to tell him, I used to say, You you're stupid. You're stupid taking things like that cos it ruins you. Mhm. See he has to send his his missus out shoplifting and things, just to get money so he can buy drugs. And you say that it's it's since he's co it's the since he's come It's since he's been here. Yeah since he's been in the flats yeah. Is there much in terms of drugs do you actually are there many people in the flats who actually that are actually involved in drugs or Yeah. Or take them, yeah. Well I've seen I've seen guys walking along balconies with joints in their hands, you know smoking the joint as they're walking along. As they're walking along Yeah, this one here, Yeah. just out there. Just outside you see them walking through with drugs. Yeah. And there's a flat over there on that walk what deals with drugs. Er there's one up one er on the next walk down. And there's another one somewhere cos my friend he used to come round here with his drugs, he used to tell me where they was you know. Probably thought that I'd go an get some but I, no way. . That's one thing I want to try and keep off. You know being round here you might be tempted to do it but that's why I just keep in me flat and out of the way. What do you fee , as a person do you feel in do you feel any different living here to elsewhere? Ah, I'm just more alert at night times you know. Yeah. Cos you never know what's gonna happen. So I I'm more alert, I wake up earlier. You wake up earlier, yeah . See at I'll wake up about eight or nine o'clock, but round here you wake up at six. Five and six in the morning, and you're always waking up in the middle of the night cos you don't know, you know, if summat's happened or summat's gonna happen. I'm always waking up in the night. Like last night I couldn't get to sleep. You couldn't get to sleep I didn't , I didn't get to sleep till about two o'clock. And then I woke up again, and I come upstairs to look at the clock and it was half past three. And I went back down to bed and I got up again at five, went back there then the baby wake up at seven so I come up and stayed up. So that's because of erm That's just cos she's tensed Yeah. you know you don't know what's gonna happen next. You're not sure you know what's happening and what's going on. So that's very different, so you feel different, very different to when you lived in ? Oh yeah, cos when we lived at you see you could just go to sleep and that's it you knew that nowt was gonna happen. You knew nothing was gonna happen at . Could just go to sleep and enjoy a good night's kip and wake up in the morning. And everything's Mhm. just the same as it was the night before, you know. But round here you could go to sleep, wake up in the morning and half the flat's have been burnt down and shops have been looted and you don't know where you are. If you if any of if you have say er any problems with the people in the flats that you could actually go to would help you in any way? Oh I've no idea really. Is it,I mean do you know many people in the flats who you could actually rely on if you ever if you were No, I don't know anybody in the flats. So you so the two years you've been here you've not managed to really get to know many people. wouldn't want to know I wouldn't want to know anybody anyway round here. I mean cos if you got to know someone they might be might be muggers, or you might get in, you know et to know somebody else and they might be a big crime organization. Mhm. Never know. What do, in terms of erm, terms of prostitution, is that act , is that, does that bother you or are you not bo bothered really about the fact that that goes on in the area? I'm not really bothered about prostitution meself. I mean som you know I suppose they've got to make a living some how you know with the money you get off social. But the only thing that does bother me about it is when they get you know school kids coming out of school and going straight on streets on Road. You know little kids coming out of school and going straight on the road. That's the Mhm. only thing that bothers you, you know. Mhm. So I can say that really what worries you is more the crime and the drugs much more than prostitution, as far as prostitution you're saying that basically there's a Ah, no, I mean cos violence and drugs is more harmful than a load of girls, you know, doing stupid things on s street corner. Yeah. I mean you know drugs and violence they're the things in life what can really hurt you and damage you. Mhm. I mean prostitution can't hurt you, they can't damage you I don't think. Mhm. You know when you actually, when you er finally when you leave here will you be obviously the flat's coming down, you're gonna be leaving it here And they told me my flat's and go , you know I can move I'm gonna pack everything before even a house comes through. I'm gonna go round and collect everything up and pack it up. I'm just gonna leave certain things out what I need to use, till my house comes through. Do you since as soon as you've got any clue you're gonna start packing stuff up ready and That's it, all the pictures are coming off the wall and everything. They're all going in boxes. Oh yeah. I'm just gonna pack them in one bedroom and leave them there. Even if it takes four week they're stopping there. You've told me abou quite a lot about er yes quite a lot of the bad points, are there are there any, is there anything at all, any good points at all , about living here? I don't think so . You've not found any at all? No. I mean some of the pubs are quite nice. But then again you see you always get trouble in an in another one. Mhm. You can come out of a nice pub and go into another bad 'un. Mhm. So when you've actually gone into pubs have you do you ever go just you and your girlfriend, into thi into this pub? Never go on us own. We always go out in a group. Because why is, is that, is yeah. For the simple reason you know you one of the if someone starts on one person in our group all the rest of the group can get together and get them. Mhm. And What's it like, have you ever, have you ever, when you first came here did you go did you ever go in the pubs? No. With just your girlfriend then? We never went out. Didn't go out at all? The only time we went out is ice skating and that was in town, just go out ice skating now and again. The only time we've ev you know in pubs round here is like I said when it's someone's birthday in the family Mhm. and we all go out together. That's the only time we'll come round Green. Yes is that is that because of erm fear that Fear really you know violence you know. I mean her her s her dad he he come down Green not so long back to go onto the market, what's that you know just outside the flats. To the market that's here every Wednesday Yeah. Yeah. And he went into the to the Pub Yeah. and he went into the toilets and there was a lot of coloured men there, Do you want to buy some dope? You know he only went to he only went for a pee you know what I mean that cramming five pound and ten pound deals at him, and he's going, No you can, you know . in terms of erm the blues parties have, what's your view on those? Do you hear much about them or Well there used to be one. Yeah. On the end of this walk that used to bother me, cos it used to be going till four and five in the mo you know in the morning. And then when it finishes you've got all the guys coming out shouting and screaming and running about through the flats, the music never bothered me, it was just the you know the guys coming out after that bothered you. Cos you didn't know whether they'd had er you know had a lot to drink or had a load of drugs and start going on the rampage or something. Mhm. But they'd never have bothered me. It's the blues that never been never been much of a problem really. No. Bothered you. It's like that one there they they left er i they left the blues and then the tr trouble was caused you see. Mhm. So you're saying yeah See it's not the blues that bother me I don't think it's just the fact that there's there might be trouble afterwards. You know like then. Mhm. Like a couple there they got robbed . Yeah. And that was after the blues finished. When you had the blues erm near by you said at one time that it was just away from here, was there, was there any, was it, was there any bother after that after the blues then or was it okay? No I never heard no more. Mhm. You know you could hear you could hear them shouting you know goodnight and things like that. Mhm. But there was never any trouble. Mhm. Not with the blues. Is it you know in terms of erm in the flats f erm is there any how how do people you know of different you know white and coloured people do do they get on o okay or is or is there is there a problem there or not? I don't really know myself but I Yeah. I find that I I I get on with coloureds anyway quite well. You know cos I know a lot of coloured from different areas. Yeah and that's the And most of them moved down to Green as soon as it was built. Yeah. So I find that coloureds and whites get on alright anyway. So I don't think there's any problem with that. So you don't think there's any problem at all there. No. No. I think we'll just Right erm you lived in , you were born in , is that alright saying that? Yeah. Or and you you lived there right through until you were fifteen. Then you went to Valley, and . Yeah. Yeah. So do you fe obviously in terms of particularly because you lived there right, throughout right up right up until you were fifteen, how did it c how does it compare living there with here? Well it's a lot better. Yeah. I mean there's no drugs and prostitution and there's not much violence round . There's a lot of burglaries round I admit yeah, but there's not much violence and drugs and things like that, so I I used to think it was good living round . You know cos at least you've got a few fields for the kids to play on and you've got a decent park, you've got a nice pub just down the road and then you've got the big sports hall. You've got a golf course, you've got quite a few things round here, you've even, you've got your school just a bit, you know up past . You've got the church, community centre, infant school and junior school combined, and a nursery so you know it's all within a little community sort of thing. Mhm. And how does that compare ? But I think got worse when Valley was built cos you know there was more families moving from different parts of t to move you know live at Valley. That's when you know they got more crime committed round and Valley then, cos there was a lot more kids up there. Mhm. But before that it was best, you know it was just all farm land, it was brilliant you know. Mhm. And does it compa Yeah. Wake up to the sound of chickens, you know sheep and horses and things like that. It was just great. Mhm. So what how does it compare now would you sa is that kind of erm the other places that you've lived at you know you've lived at , Valley and . How do the, how do you see those areas as comparing, you mean you were sayi you said they bit they were better, how do they compare with living here do you think? Well I think if I had a if I had a choice where to live Yeah. out of them four , Yeah. , Valley and Green, I'd pick first, and then second I'd pick Valley, third would be and last would be Green. Mhm. would be the last place possible . It would. Yeah. If someone a obviously it's it's what I'm asking is hypothetical anyway because I mean the flats are coming down so no one new can move in, but say you actually if if it was possible for other people to move into these flats and you knew someone and they said erm, You know I'm thinking of moving into Green flats, what would you say? I'd tell them, No. I'd say, You don't want to move here. I'd I was I was glad when they said no more can move into Green, cos I was thinking, Well my sister's getting a house soon and my other sister she's getting a house and I don't want them two living round here as well cos the me mam and dad won't be able to see them either, you know if they move into the flats so I was glad. Mhm. So how did they react to you when you your mum and dad when you actually when you moved in here. You said they haven't been round round do they do they tend to keep away from here so how did they react when you actually first Well got the flat, yeah. They just says, Where you living again? So I says, Walk at Green. And they says, Is that near the Pub? I says, Yeah. And they says, Oh well we're not coming down that area then to visit you. I says, Why? She says, Cos there's a lot of drugs and that being you know pushing round that Pub. And I says, Well there's nothing wrong with that, I mean I says, I'm not taking them or owt. She goes, No but the point is that people kill for drugs which probably is right, I don't know, so she says, We're just not coming down. She says, You know it's not being funny or owt, but she said, But you could still visit us but we're not coming down Green. No way. It's just the area. But we still get on alright you know we're still a close family, ever though she don't come to visit . Mhm. Do you find yeah the fact you said that you've got your close family, do you find the fact you're a close family, does that, that, does that help you, you know the fact that you you said that you haven't got Yeah. many people round here No. Yeah it does help us Yeah. You know cos at least I can still go out and visit all my family even if they can't come down here. Mhm. How will it be actually living here? You know cos you you said that you di there's no there's no one who you really know round here. And if you didn't' have a close family. I think it would be some who doesn't have a close family because there'll be some people round here who probably won't. I don't know, I I just think, we'd be a, lonely you know on us own. Sort of thing cos I wouldn't mix with anyone round Green. So I think we'd just stay here and ourself. And then you know till we move. Right. Thanks very much. Well you can do. I'm going to How long will you be doing your cake? I'm not making a cake, I'm making marmalade this Oh. this afternoon. Still got Christmas cake, so I know. But Anyway , what's on? How much of that is left? Not much. Of the cake? Not much. Film. Film. Leave the washing up we'll both Alright. do it together. You sure? Film, Seven Cities of God , that's on now. Don't want that, do you? No. The other one is Thorn Birds Spea , er speak to the thing and loudly or Do you think it's taking? Shall have to see. I is it running? Has the, is the red light on? Ah! Oh! I see. Same as the other one. Oh oh! You know what's on tonight? Er, anything any good? Well! Grace and Favour, you know th er Are You Being Served? Mm. That's on. A new series but called Grace and Favour at eight. Is it But a series, a series or just one A new one! A new new series altogether? Yeah Gra . Yeah, the similar carrying on Oh. from the Grace Brothers. That should be rather nice. But on the comedy channel on the satellite it's, the old er Are You Being Served. Mm. So you can decide Choose what you're going to see, the new series or repeat of the Oh ah! old. So The new series is alright though. The older series was alright but Yeah, well we'll have to see. Anyway what was all that on the news? I didn't hear it at one o'clock, did you? It's some what? There's a What's the matter? big lorry coming up, big yellow lorry coming up the road. Oh it's got sweeping brushes. They're probably putting sand e sand in the roads. Clear, I hope he's clearing the salt up. No he's not. I bet he's putting salt in the road. Yeah. Oh well. Half inch of frost and you get the salt people out. Mm. Well . As soon as it's strikes your, the bottom of your car it's it begins to rust. Well And ne ,e it, and is, if it's going to freeze tonight you can't wash it off. Well we shan't be going out in the car today shall we? Or tomorrow. No. So Do you think we ought to go round Peter and Joan's. No. She likes to be told. Just leave About fetching you home. No. I'm gonna take her home. And then you can't have a drink cos you've got to take her haven't Oh yeah! you? True. Mm. No, wait till the weather's a bit better. And it might be snowing tomorrow. Er, is the market o always crowded like that so you're pushing? Well, it is if you go in So as you get . Friday and Saturday. Well it mostly is in the week anyway. How about ringing George up? Well no, if he's suffering from depression you don't want Do you think he'll come for lunch? No. Don't wanna ask him this week. Besides he wouldn't come at I said I wouldn't give him . sh , such short notice. Well he may have Madge and Tom last week, I don't Now can you tell me if this marmalade's set? I can't see very well. Bring it er, bring it in er to the fro , lounge. It should be on the table at the back. Have you got it? Yeah. I don't think it's Bring it in to here. I don't think it's qui , is it wrinkling? Just a, ah! Well don't hold my wrist! This is my bad wrist You wicked girl! He's alright . I don't think it's quite ready is it? It's, no it's not er it's not crinkling on the surface. Cos it's not clear. Ah, a few more minutes. Put these slippers on. Have you seen, leave it on. Look! I don't think it's, the swe , the swelling's going down at all do you? No. And it's, it's it seems very hot. That's cos I've left the thing off? Do you think you ought to go to the doctors again? Don't know. We'll put the bandage back on though. Have you seen my bandage? How about ri er ring, ringing them up? Yeah. Ooh here it is! No! They'll say come, they'll want to see it. Well show it to them and see. No, no I'm not going all the way down today. Are you putting that back on? Mm, that's not quite ready is it? No. What about the picture? What to show Jackie? Well, when she comes home I think She is home. Been Well home a little while. no I mean when Tom's home. Show it them together? Well, perhaps I'll them later. Oh, could do. I think it's good! Bit of extra Where you going to put it that's the important thing. This , in there. No! I mean, on the wall! You're not putting it on under there! Whereabouts on the wall? This? Yes. Well I ain't bothered about that yet! We got other things to do haven't we? Well if you wanted it, if you, now you've bought it you want to decide where you're going to put it. Well put it in in five minutes can't I? Are you going to show her or not? Oh I'm going to show her! But I was just wondering where you was gonna put it. And I thought it'd be extra Can't over the radiator. Well she'll want it in the house and all that! I know. I said I know she will! I'm talking when, when they've seen it! Well, we're not bothered about a yet! Yes I Well you er you, I thought you were going to ask her to look at. I will do when Tom's home. Then he can come and look any time. Yeah. I expect she'll be making, probably busy making I like it very much don't you? Yeah. It's unusual to say the least. I think it's er I shall ask how, when it was taken. Last summer. After that building at the back was finished. Must have been! Yes, cos it's there. About that July. Ah! I I was, I were help him point it at the time. You know the pear tree where you asked me Yeah. to prune it it's still over the garage. Yeah. But you didn't prune it until about October did you? No. But i ,i , I've not i , on this sh picture the pear tree is ri ,we all over the garage. Over the garage over the back, the other garden. So er, it's I think it's July, August taken. It's not been recently has it according to that? Well it couldn't be recently could it because the flowers are out? Well that's another point. You can tell which flowers are in bloom. Do you think they will like it? You know, to buy one? What next door? Mm. Probably. Although their lawn looks a bit But er threadbare doesn't it? Well he did say er, ours i your greens, your grass is greener. Yep. Well we haven't cut ours since have we? Are you going to show it Tom and Madge? Yes. When we get there? What take it with us? Yes. Could do. That reminds I don't suppose me don't suppose they'd come and a me , for tea would they? Well we had them last week, I'm not going to ask them. They wouldn't want to come again anyway so soon. Tom doesn't like going out. Like you do. Well home's always the best. I suppose we're at home today. Er, when's that Churchill thing on? When's th the Argentina one? That's next week, but no , I know that. Gotta get that again. I've seen one or two erm previews of it but I've never found out when it is. Er er the slab those yellow slabs they show up pretty well don't they? Mm. In the red Did you know what was on this morning? red . Les Miserables. Eh? Charles Laughton was on this morning at nine twenty five. Who was? Charles Laughton! What? Oh in that er Les Miserables. Oh yes! It's where he is a Mhm. he's always after a prisoner int he? Escaped prisoner. And he ends up , he ends er, drowning hisself ? Mm. Because he'd been pursuing the same man for years. What, I used to se , see the book in the library but I never drew it out until I, recently. It's a good story that. Mm. I liked it very much. Mind you, Charles Laughton put it a bit of beef into it didn't he? Mm. No, there's not much on tonight really. Nothing worth looking at? Well, there's just that er, Are You Being Served. I suppose you wanna see . They're gonna do another series did you read it? Yes, that, that was it! It's go it's got both on at eight tonight. Both on are they? I told you that earlier Oh. on! The new one and the old one. Oh that's strange idea! Well one's on Sky and one's on B B C. Any Questions at eight five. So you can have that tomorrow at lunchtime then can't you? Yeah. Well I think I'd better go and look at the jam again. I think it's er wants a few more minutes so Yeah. switch that off. Go and have another five minutes and Switch it off and leave it. Are they both down? Yeah. Is it rolling? Er, do you want any whisky in your tea? I can have it, yeah. Want some? Yeah, just a drop. Is it alright? Mhm. Are the pigeons gone? Yes. Is that blackbirds? Blackbird and a robin. I think that's setting now isn't it Arthur? Blackbird and robin been? Yes. They've had some sultanas. That's setting int it Mm. it? Mm. Yeah, you se , you know I might go er down that shed. Throw it away now if you don't want If I don't want what? Well you don't wanna put it on the ship do you? It's not on the ship, it's only on the table. I've got to jar that in Have the robin and blackbird in ten minutes. gone off then when they had They had some sultanas. And a bit of potato. Okay? Yes. What are you going to do about that conifer? You can't leave those steps and Well I've to ask, remove them before they plant Well I shall want, they're closed now int they, on Mondays? Well I shall move it before bed time. Er er The wind's gone. There's no forecast for I don't know. We 'd better get the new Violent storm or anything? We better put the news on at four, just before four. Mm. But you see, if I'd have gone in Wilkinsons I could have bought another this morning. Well, that's alright it's clean. Ah, I know but if yo , if it's, if we get a gale again we shall Well want something to tie it up with won't we? Oh I know. I can take that out and put it back. It's no problem. And that old you kept er asking about, it's er tying the ro you remember the rose bush? Mm. Mm Well it fell on the slabs had to tie it right I remember. back. I remember now. That's a bit lighter for that and if there's a Well gone late haven't they? Well There's late i it draws out doesn't it? Yeah. Getting light. A few minutes every day. Did the robin have any sultanas? Yeah. They'd all been. He's a quick mover int he? Mm. Like a little dart. Oh ! You don't know what the forecast is then for tomorrow? No, if you put Sky news on just before four You get the You get the weather. Mm. And see about that bomb in ta , in er you know the Prime Minister's place? I, I just heard the outcome of it. Oh, has there been another one today then has there? I was in the kitchen and I just heard something about a bomb near the Prime Minister's The Prime Minister's establishment. and I said to you what, what was it? And you said I wasn't listening! You didn't know. So No. put the four o'clock news on and we might. Oh! It ain't four . No, until then. Er,perha Leave it on now. Oh. It is er And get Madge and Tom if you like, er, when we get, we'll nip over for the week, you know? Instead of taking the eggs. Well I've got to get some jars from them because I've got another lot of marmalade to make. Well let's go down for the jars and then they can, see They can take that. see what they say for ten minutes. Could do. We'll see. It depends on the weather tomorrow, if there's frost or anything. True! I'm not going if it's frosty! Or salty. Well if they put salt on the road, according to the A A,i Already said that! it starts to bu No. Do you want another cup. Give me Yes please. your cup. Give me want any more whisky in? I'm starting to Where, the front or the back? The back. Oh dear! it's all over the damn ! Oh I'm going to put Sky on so I can erm get the news. Your tea's here! Eh? Your tea is here! Well it'll get cold! I'm going to drink it! Oh this is set now. They nearly went! Well you shouldn't have put them there should you? But they're still in their er What what Got mine yet? Must have been there Now tomorrow we've got to get a sack of potatoes. We could wait till Monday but that's about all. Well wait until Monday when there's salt on the roads. Why? Well you know what salt does to underneath the car. The bodywork. Well I know! You're always on about that! Well I'll have to ring Cath up to come and fetch er Penny's birthday card. What Sunday or Saturday? No, she'll come Sunday if she comes at all. Cos if we're not going out tomorrow we shan't be able to deliver it. And it's her birthday on Sunday. So How old is she? Forty? Forty one! I think. Getting on! Not very old is she? Well creeping up isn't it? Well when you think you're seve , what are you? Seventy five I am se now! Yeah and I'm eighty two. Well She must be well down the birth rates. Ah ah! Anyway, I ought to ring er Rhona up and see how Penny is. What about Joan? Have you, and er rung Well! It's about not rung time they rang me! George? How about Ge , asking George to come round for a meal? He won't come at short notice. I'll perhaps ring him later. Not short notice, it's Well if Friday night! if Catherine says he's got clinical depression we Aha. don't want that here! Well I could Yo lighten depression. Yes er , I know! That's what I mean! You'll make him worse! Or he'll make you worse! So Scintillate, scintillate little star how I wonder what you are? Up above th the world star What's all that in aid of? Like a tea tray in the sky In the sky. my dad used to say. It was a no a version of it. Was it? Well are you going to look at the telly Any Questions for me. have any questions? Oh well I'll look at the telly then. Is th , is there anything on? Yes. You know there is! That Grace Oh! and Favour! See what it's like. Probably be a bit daft, but still Is that th se , er the Grace Brothers! Grace Brothers? Mm, only it's i in a New version like? Ye , well it's not in the shop, I think it's big country house they've turned into a hotel or something. Pretty good write up. Mm. So looks like a day in tomorrow. You'll be able to do my kitchen door. My, that cupboard door. Or have you got to go in the garage and do that? I've got to. Different, see to the do ,swi sliding door in the garage with a vice to open it. It's gonna be bitterly cold! Well you can't go in there if it's too cold. Catch the flu. No! Er, I'll think I'll let Joan ring me shall I? I always have to ring her! Why should I? Ring her up. Well Peter sometimes ring. No he doesn't. He speaks, when Joan rings, or Colin. But Anyway, have you seen Les today? No, I bet Edie's husband. Don't think I've ever seen Well he came by didn't he? Today? I've not seen him. Well didn't you wave to him through the window? No, not today. Oh. That was yesterday after the snow had stopped, he was doing his shopping and in the afternoon. And he and we didn't really I only just saw him fleetingly. So Well ho , how old would he be? He's a year younger than me. Mm. And she's not as old as me either. Yet I could I give her quite a few couldn't Mm. I? By the looks and actions. How old is Madge se , eighty? Eighty one Madge is. Getting ba , on the re old age syndrome. Well, we have been for some time. And er should we leave the heat on all night? I could do I suppose. If it's going to be cold. Mm? We don't want any freeze ups do we? Or should we leave it on pretty late, turn it off later? You can do as you want. Wouldn't hurt to leave it on will it? No. You might get a hot in the night. Well, you do and yet we want heat in the, in the pipes. We'll see. Nothing on telly till eight. If you wanna hear Any Questions at eight fifty five. You can always have certain procedures. I suppose I haven't got to keep within in that parameter. What do you mean? It's about time you you switched the heating and learnt how to do it. And bothered yourself with it, you know how to do it but you don't can't be bothered to do it. Ha! It's not that. I don't like mundane jobs. Mm, that's not It's women's work. No it isn't. Do you want any more cake? No thank you. Well don't drink that too quickly! That Yeah. was a bi big one. It's cold. Is it? Oh. Yeah. I thought it had gone. Will you want any coffee later? No. There's no rush. Suppose I better put some on, I've used it all up. Finish with engines. Oh I don't think Dutch coffee was Oh right, yeah. was good as that other I used to get, and yet it was a lot more expensive! And I will , I can't remember what it was but I don't think I'll get it again. They'll find me at Nagines, where all the girls are dreams! What's made you to think of that? The Merry Widow. Just like to do one more show before I die. Oh! Shut up! Pity it all fell through innit? Mm. All over the is anybody doing it? Well there is one or twos, but Oh. nothing like the number we had Is Lily doing in it? No, she di , hadn't done it for years! She's got arthritis back. I didn't know. Ooh! Mary took over. Well Mary took over. I shouldn't mind going to see the King and I, but you don't like that do you? No I ge , I got to see it I know we've seen about six times got tired of it. on the stage but And er it's nice! Yul Bryner did it well but his No! I mean the amateurs that is, well not the amateurs but a professional Oh I see. company doing it at the Haymarket! I always think there's a little shade of big headedness with Yul Bryner! Well there is with you sometimes! Lots of times! Lots of big headedness! Yes ! At least I practise what I preach. Sometimes. How many more of those records have you got to tape? Mm. A fair number, but we're getting through them. Have you sorted out which you've done and which you haven't? Oh I know. Yeah I've wrote it all, booked in. Aha. Looks quite tidy now. You're getting all methodical in at last. Which is blooming what I said Well I was thinking said in the first place! I was thinking it might, seriously, and we used to say hands up all those who haven't seen the sea? Oh don't go back i Forest of hands, bar two. And er well I er I was one of the two. The lad next to me he'd been three times! His hand went up just the same. Life doesn't change much does it? Well! You get the twisters don't you? That's not twisting, that! And probably, mother said about the linen and a suitcase not to, not to put a hand up. And yet, the one who'd been, he said I've been twice hi his dad se , er rides stallions fo on those two wheel tongas to the, take the coal to co , to . And er, so I mean he was pretty well, he kept about six shire horses, those big Mm. big plates of meat horses, and er there you are, that's how it goes I suppose. Your getting as bad as my Aunt Ada. What? Being out of breath? Keep telling the same old tales! Is she the one with a teapot in suit rack? No. No. She's not. I could see the foreman now! He come across with his un one of the managers and he says what's the idea? He says of where you get er, you've got a so , cup, a saucer with your cup of tea, he says we never get one! I said well it's my wife's er aunty . I , you know, she got quite annoyed. No! He was only pulling your leg. Oh. He can take a joke. at the same place er we were putting machinery in after the war, you know Mm. and getting them up from the cellars. Said they had to two Oh yes! factories into one. I know. They had to concentrate. Well they had to get their own machines out an there's one old boy had a stitcher, a be he looked ninety, he probably wasn't, and er he was chu , it was just after lunch and he was chewing apple and old Jo , I was working with so you know, Jim someone's I said look at the silly old B, I said! He's really enjoying that apple, I says er, and it's a waste of time er, eating anything! So they look at me! Oh Jim we got a big four foot o , you know, opening in the floor, lowering the machines and bringing them up. He nearly fell down for looking ! But he were really going at it you know. Mm. But er that tickled Jimmy that did. But still, if you can't joke you can't do anything can you? I know. See children with skateboards they amaze me! Mm, I know. Anyway , I bet they cost seventy pound don't they? No! They don't cost that much. I think they're about twenty pounds. Now, what have you done now? Straight down these trousers! Saw it it's going in. Do children still go errands er for old ladies? Mm, I think so. I don't see any round here. Well I used to be, and I was some of them. willi , willing and a a kindly nature but we if it's in the middle of a game you know, and er, you know how you are when you're playing a game well they'd fetch me away to run for some cheese for an old lady. And I, I ran there and ran back to continue my game, at play like and I heard a,mo , her say to mother well I like your lad to go says th look at this cheese it's never been unwrapped he said those other lads he says it's always looks as if it's been unwrapped and Mhm. a bit broken off! Mm! Yeah. I suppose lads will always be Well! I suppose you were doing it You did in those days. Some of them never saw cheese did they? Well no In the first ever so cheap that! first war. Not in Not in the first war. Cheese always was Mm. cheap! Mm. Right up to Second World Mm. War! It was slashed then. Course i e , it's very expensive now but it it only used to be about one and six a pound right up to the end of the war and it's now two pounds a pound and Mm. more! And the milkman he used to sell it out of a Yeah I know, you bought it with a jug of water Water. and a big cap. He said er ooh go go and see if we can get a jug of water, he says er wash my cans in. Mm! Really? It's anybody's guess whether it was the cans or the milk he washed out. But still, that's life! Mm. It doesn't change much. I used to run, pick ladies smocks up down the tailors. Course, it wasn't like it is now. It was all tailors. Oh no! And er you don't see lady's smocks today do Mm. you? And all the ? A pink, not a pinky but, pale pinky violet about four petals. I have an idea. Paley pale sort of er I thought we saw some in Swidlan Woods once. Oh. Not sure. Cowslips, they used to be very Aye I know! Used to make cowslip wine! pretty. Mrs used to make cowslip wine. There used be a field out at er Oh. by Grave Hall went down and took them. There used to be loads down there! When I was cycling lovely summer afternoon, well er four i , about four o'clock and er there was three farmers round a big sign, in in there and tha that's where I went up cycled. Didn't get u , dismount I just sat on the saddle like with my foot on the floor wandering what they was up to. And they were, you know the stallion they was helping him put it . I know. That tickled me to death! When I told our fellers when I got back to the depot wouldn't believe me! Yeah, they go got it and swung it up like that, and I'm sure to the stallion couldn't find where it was ! I thought well, what a carry on! Mind you, if they got big hooves like plates of meat you know, great big Oh yes. you know it may be heavy to Mm. to lift up onto a mares back. Oh shut up! What? I shouldn't last long. It's happened more than that. Probably still does. And, the same road Tobozier the, you know the ditches for Mm. running the water off, they didn't have banks. And er farmers used to throw his cabbage plants in the bottom of the ditch and leave them there till he was ready to Plant them. Plant them. Mm! Now we, we come out with plants and push them into the ground straight away don't we? Still each to his own. The bulbs are shooting up now have you noticed? Mm. Yeah! I've not been up the garden at the back but those on the front are. Poor old Charlie ! I told you about him ever so I re I reckon that er he I reckon that was er some relation to the, he used to live opposite us. Er, because her name was Don't know. and and her, some people next door were like barge people. Mm. Mm. So I reckon this Ye yeah. was Probably was. the same. And there was some mystery about her because the kids' names unless my mother always called her by her, by her name before she was married, but she always called her , and yet the boys was . Mm. Course, as a kid you don't think of that, but there was never was a father there or something so not that I could ever remember so that, that was the fire crackling. Yeah, she er we went to the river shore, you know the bridge near o on our part of the road and he were behind the trees and er I was wo wo , it were one of his sons who were with us, you know, Tommy and he was shouting Ah! I reckoned I've heard my mam say Tommy. Go back! Go back! And cos he didn't want any cos he overstayed his Illegal worker. he, he were due to go back in the army and he overstayed Mm. his leave for three days. They found him eventually. what it was, Foundry Lane though, it was a pudding, what we used to call pudding bag street, there was big circle round the bottom and R D Smith and Sons manufacturers Oh I remember that. and er as I came to visit mother and she we th went to know and la , called landaus Mm. small wheel, you know, with a white horse he came, you know on er granite cobbles horses hooves, er he went to the bottom along this circle to turn round as he came back every door were open and we and er heads out, they thought it was a fu , you know, horse Mm. horse and landau a funeral and they're all watching! Mother loved it! We went off and we got to a steep hill, we all had to get out And walk ! three lads and two ladies, and we had,we the three lads, Bill, George and me we pushed at the back, and the two ladies mother and Vi just walked. And er it's funny that though, how they all come out to look. But still they used to go and fetch meat, there used to be horse slaughterers near Ooh! I don't want to hear all about that again! Abbey Park. No, we don't want to hear And er all about that again! As I say, your getting just li like Who is? aunt Ada! That's cos this horse was lovely! No! Must be getting near the end of the tape Surely you mustn't it dear? you lived a young life didn't you? What did you do, just skip and play hopscotch and snobs? No! Girls don't say anything Mm. Well there, so No. We used to read and and Piece piece piece of coal as long as that, you see that fire? Mm. Piece of coal as long as that, a foot wide and foot, like a foot square we pulled off a And that's three feet that's the length of it. and taking the coal to the from the wharf to the er gas works Gas works. for coating and they've jumped on the wagon. There's like two pieces sticking out at the back you could ge get your foot on it and pull a a this hundred weight er piece of coal off ran up with it! Mm! And then when we came out of school Dean sent a firelight at people. We, I used, erm the school were next to that so I, it was my job to go and, on you know the scrap Light the fire. heap. Well you know when they made fire lighters? Mhm. Those that didn't make it, crumbled Mm. up they threw out onto a dust heap and I used to go and sort out all these bits and er Make the fire. ma ma , to give them to George and he made the fire. And er they were the sort of things you had to do. And in, you know Woodboy Street Sunday night in the summer when it was a heat wave they'd got little bow windows then in Woodboy . Mm! two foot from the cobbles, you know, like Mm. with a little sill And I seem to remember one house and er see them when I was little. Yes, well it's Sunday night and they're always fighting and that and he, he came out four rows of the bow wi , they were twelve inches square he kicked three of them in! He said I I'll show you who's boss of this house! And, that was his idea of showing who was boss by kicking the windows in! Mm. Funny that was. Then another Sunday there were two ladies one had got a bread knife and she cu , tried to cut her hair off. And ne o , nearly scalped her! Mm. Oh life was rough there! In pla , in Woodboy Street the police used to walk in twos! Mm. There was a little police station there. Yeah I seem, I You know Rushmore Square? seem to remember that. Yeah. Mm. That's all altered hasn't it? Oh, not much. Ye , Mark's Church still there and Mm. built of slate. They're going to do something So with it I read Mm. the other day. Well the Indians have go , ain't they, they're No. the church aren't they? Not the Indians, no. I forget what they were going to do there. He's going to I think. My feet are cold. Mm. Are yours cold? No. Very warm. Oh! Can you drink all that? That one? I'll go and get my coffee. I got on well with the teachers there before I went to Bridge Road. The lad I played with, he you know these steel fash , er what they put in ladies shoes now strip of steel in the ar , see the archway? Mm. And he'd got a strip of steel about four inches the half inch and he stuck at the back of his,i it was a long seat that were a four of us sat on with iron legs and they stuck it in the wood and you'd flip it and it i , you know how it would sto Yeah. shur shur shur shur shur shur shur,and this went on for a week an little teacher, Miss , she called out stop doing that! And she ke , said yo when th , one day when there was, went out for play time quarter of an hour they rang the bell, she asked me to stop and help her with some papers. But I found out afterwards that was a subterfuge. When they'd all gone out she says er, what's that noise they keep making? I says, oh it's a bit of a spring. She said show me. So I walked to the last bench what seated three pupils, I said, there it is look it's stuck about three inch. She said, well what does it do? So I flipped it, you know and it went Mm. shur shur shur shur,so she never said no more, just hooked it out and er took it the desk. But she never remonstrated with er Len his name was, she never i , remonstrated with him. And er I was out with him, his er his dad was dead his elder brother was crippled, and he had a job of is wo Wilkinson and Phil Kilpacks next door, he did something with the sweets and jam I think. And, he couldn't walk properly. And er he er we used to go there and play with, you know, three or four hours and keep him company, like. And er we , one of the few times my dad came to Foundry Lane he I got a book, I think it were called Tiger Tim and, on the back they gave a model that you cut out with scissors and pu A comi , a comic type of thing? Yeah. er, at the back page about nine inch by six wi you, were cut-outs and you cut it out and stuck them together to make a little paper, well, thick paper model. And er oh it, it were about seven o'clock and I said I'll go and play with Len ti till half past, he says well be a , be back by half past eight. And, my dad ever suspicious says er what are you going to do? I says, well going to take, er cut these models out and stick them together I says he's, he collects them. Anyway, when I come back about half past eight as I was told to do, you know, there were no disputing it, you couldn't sa , say half past eight and be nine, like they do today, my dad says er where's the model? I says, oh I've left it there. Ooh! He says, how can you cut a, and make a model and then leave it? I said well he's got a sa , brother that can't walk, he's crippled and sits there all week and that, does a little job for Wilkinson and Kilpack and er quite annoyed! You know, he thought I'd been telling him a lie. You know, as I hadn't brought the model to show him. Mm mm. Mm. But I took no notice! I hadn't got much time for him and he knew it! He used to say you can't go out and kick your boots up! And I put a toe out of one of them! And i , it were just to show his authority, you know. But mother used to play him down alright. Yo , you'd only got to tell mother and she'd soon be after him! That were the best when she chased him down Ooh ! Yeah ! Fetched him out the hou , er out the factory! Cos he hadn't been paying his maintenance you see. Mother used to take me to the lawyers in in Newarks. Nothing for you today Mrs . Times I heard that! Still! It's all been built on now int it, down that area? Ooh! Yo I should think now. You know, oh I'm talking about the Newarks, er you know down that street Mm. where Downings factory was? Mm. When I went to pay the poll tax the other week Mm. they've pulled a lot of those big old offices and er, that factory down! Don't know what they're going to build instead! You know,no , next to Market Mm. Street, I don't know what the name of the road is. Right around Well that's all round there. Bowling Green Street, around there. Mark's Church and all Rupert Street. that's been No! Well I'm talking about in the town and Rupert Street. Yeah I know, but all those areas Oh well I know that! were wiped out. Well they were slums weren't they? Yeah. Before the war. Too right they was! Well Mm mm There was a little girl no Anyway what time is it? Five and twenty to eight? What time's your Any Questions? Dunno. I never looked. Five past or ten past eight it is. Mm. Do you want any more drink? No, I'm alright thank you. Any more to eat? No. When shall we ask Jackie and Tom to look at that photo? When you like. They'll perhaps play golf Mm. tomorrow. Show him in his er in his front door if you like if you don't want to bother them. Well if you see him going off to golf Mm. tell him when he comes back. Mm. Can come in and have a drink. All Mm. just depends what Jackie's doing. Have a look at it then. I wonder if they can hear that clock on there? Which clock? The one in th , the half minute one. Aye! That one. I've just heard it you see, I wondered if it was being Well yo recorded on there . Oh I see what you mean. Possibly. Not got to stop the clock for it have I? No, well, there's no need to. Just ig ignore the er tapes and just talk This morning. I know. So that, what does that mean? Well it was er Stay in day. Mm? Stay in day? That's certainly not in the erm events. Could do some drawing I suppose. Ready for the next painting. Er What are you going to do? I'm, making another lot of marmalade. Again? Who's going to eat it all? Me and you! I li , I li , you can only make it this time of year. Erm flakes Here come the pigeons. Er, yeah a few but not too many. Leave it switched on . Is it still switched on? Yeah it's fine. Oh a , oh I just wondered, any po , any post? No, there's been, nothing that I could see. Mm? Funny! Was you expecting some? Yes. Who? What the who's going to be the beneficiary? . There's three blackbirds and six pigeons already. Yes, well you'll have to go easy on that feed. We only got one bag. We got, we got we got two. We only got one bag. Is one e , the other one empty? Well you only bought one bag, you couldn't carry any more without the car. Ah but we got some left over from the others. Had you? Oh! I Yeah. didn't think you had. Is it er tantrum day today? Yes it is, if you don't behave! Do I, if Well, keep leaving the doors, opening the doors to feed the birds! Making it cold! Most considerate and quiet chap in the district I am! Ooh! Ooh! Ooh hoo! Do you want any mushroom? Eh? Do you want any mushroom with your egg and No , I'm not very Just bacon and egg and tomato? Not very partial to mushrooms. Bacon, egg and tomato? Mm. Yes Mm? Yes please. It's fungi int it your eating? Ooh! What you done now? Your milk's boiling. Is it burnt? No. It's alright. Did you have any whisky in your tea? I did. Oh is that the one of Oh. the forks? Two fingers that's all I had. Well that's a lot in a cup int it? Eat those while I do the bacon . That needs to be switched off hasn't it? And that? Have you switched it off? No! Leave it on. Are you going out this morning? Evelyn? but I can do if you like. Have you eat those? Aye. The windows upstairs are all steamed up. I'll attend to that. I have a certain procedure and you have to keep within that parameter. Don't be silly! You should le , leave the window open at night like I do. What, and let all the cold in? Well I can't breathe. And expend all your central heating? I can't breathe whe , when you don't open the window at night. What good's a Sorry the egg's a bit er what did ? er th , the eggs stuck together. I think I'll have to get a new pan. It's supposed to be non-stick but it's not. It's sticking. It got a bit bent when I dropped it. So your egg broke. Tomatoes are cold. Surely not! Have they been in the fridge? it's cold! Mm? It's not cold! It seems so to me. It's cold, mine is. Pigeons are down. Yeah. About cleared what I've put out. Well you'll have to go easy because you won't get any more until after the weekend! What's ? Did you have the news? Mm mm. I had a listen it's Nothing new is there? Well after that er still want that man who's supposed to have er, blown up Lockerbie. The two men. Mm? Two was it? Yeah. And th they want them e extradited. Well I'm going to make that marmalade and do a bit of cleaning. Mm mm. You can do your ship. Well er . Can't do the ship cos it wi , got to go on the bench in the garage. I might do a bit of drawing. Well, start a painting. Mm. Start a painting. Did you find me that card? Tha that Scottish card that you were looking for that painting? Oh! Well, say I come to think, I didn't. You were looking for it last night. Mm. Perhaps I will now . Especially on a sunny day. Oh yeah! But er Well you missed three pigeon there. Mm. It's er four actually. I wonder how long this cold spell Within in the next couple of days at least! So A stop in day then I suppose? Unless you want to walk to The Dove? I'm not so bothered. Are you not bothered? Mm. I thought you wanted a beer? Well I wouldn't mind one but just have to walk I haven't got any cans in. just have to walk haven't you, in the cold and Well, we'll see. I'll go across for the paper, so we got all the We've got the programmes! I bought the Oh you bought one did you? You know I did! I couldn't get this weeks' Oh! because it was Tuesday so I had to have next choose the following weeks'. And when does that start? Today! Oh! Unless you've thrown it away like you do other things! I put it in the bookcase in Mm. in there. On top of the books so that it didn't so unless you've moved it? What are we having for lunch for Sunday lunch? Pork chops today. Mm. If I'm busy we'll have it later. Chicken tomorrow. Don't you get tired of chicken? No! We've not had any since Christmas! Mm. And we had beef last week which wasn't very good. Mm. What did you attribute that to? Change your butcher! He might object. Who might? The butcher. He didn't even know did he? He would if you was having to pay on your usual He knows I have chicken some weeks so Mop all that up. Eat some bread. The bread's stodge! Not, not wholemeal bread's not. Got to eat it. Have you seen my honeycomb? Oh aye! Lovely! Haven't opened the curtains! I know. That er new car next door it er Not brand new! it, well er It's a Ford. different then. It seems longer than the one he had. Don't think so. I didn't think it was as big. Mm. Looks so to me. They seem to use them a lot, buses, don't they? Mm. That's one thing, this weather'll keep the skateboarders at bay wouldn't it? I'm not so sure if it's sunny. How parents can spend all that money for them to run down on the chest paddling with their hands on the dirty pavement! And then they have to carry them all the way back up the hill! Seems pointless to me! I were making models when I were their age. Mm. I don't suppose they wash when they go in do they? Course they do! No. More than when you were a kid I expect! Teachers used to look at our hands. You have to turn them, see and look I know. says turn the palm of your hands Yes! I know! and inspects it if you've washed them. I mean mo most kids have two showers a day these days! Well th , we used to fool them though we had, we had celluloid collars we used to spit on and then rub your sleeve to and er you know your boots, you had black boots? Oh yeah! And rub on the back of your sock! We used to,ru on the back of your , back of your socks ! I wonder if they do that now? Course they don't, because they have trainers and they're always mucky! I think they're horrible they are! Well they look mucky in the shops! And that's Well no they don't, not originally. Well they don't look like there's, the boots Well they're damn clean! Now, nip all that up and eat it. They don't look like the boot and shoes we used to swe , wear. I know that! Eat all that up. All that It's in bread. And don't save it for the birds. It's indelicate to , indelicate to mop your plate with a piece of bread, you know that! It's not. French do it all the time! Well we're not French. Ah! You want to eat more bread you do! What's it supposed to do for you? Well fibre. Keep you in good health. Your cooking does that. Mm! Flatterer! Was your father a good eater? No. For breakfast? I don't think he e , he eat much breakfast. He used to cook ours. But, I don't ever remember seeing him sit down to have any. Yes. You used to see my my father's eyes sparkle when he had his first pint of the day! Ha! Mm? What? Er, another cup of tea? Yes please. Eat your marmalade. Ah,yo you've got to wait for your cup of tea erm, they've sort of gone a bit cold. Do you want marmalade? Do you want Want any whisky in your tea? Yes please. Do you want marmalade? Yes I do, a little bit. Just on this little bit of bread. You want some whisky in did Mm. you say? Oh you, I'd like butter on mine! We as well as the marmalade! Gives you cholesterol No it doesn't! Cholesterol is the word! Trouble is you keep, I ta , wash your hands when you've had marmalade. Well so what! It's sticks Sticky to, sticky hands up . I had a be better night last night than I did the night before. I never woke once. I had a never heard a sound. I did about two and then I went off again and erm Oh. later than usual wasn't it? How do you know? We do you want the windows doing th , today? Where did you put the programmes? In the bookcase, I told you! On top of the books! Well it's the same picture as last week's. It isn't! This front is basically the same oh, as we had er It's not! Yes! But I same one bought it on Tuesday! Oh. Eat your toast! You sa You have a look, it's the date, look at the date! Hasn't You told me to anyway it's Saturday Saturday. All day! Now what's on? Anything any good? Er Where's your glasses? Good question! On there. Good question! Well you want to save your eyes. No, there isn't any . Er Well they were there. Mm mm. Mm. Here they are. Henry the Fifth at two forty. Here are. Yes. That should be good. Ah! Who's in it though? Ooh! The Lawrence Olivier Lawrence Oliviers sh one, that's a good one Patria , patriarchal adaptation of Shakespeare's play . Mm. And Kenneth And that's supposed to be better than Kenneth Brannigan's Kenneth Branagh. Brannigan! It's su it's supposed to be better than his. Which he did last year. Uplifting celebration of war time idealism . Four sta , four ratings. What's that? Er,e Henry the Fifth. Oh! Doris Day. By the Light of the Silvery Moon. Oh that's a That's on light musical. five past three till five. We've seen that before. Not bad! But, just depends. What time is Henry the Eighth, the Fifth? That's er, two forty to, to five minutes to five. Ooh a bit after that. Finish about two then, I should think. I don't want it too early because we're late with breakfast this morning. And what's on tonight? In case we're staying home. Twelve o'clock, that's er No. Well look at the proper programmes, that's just giving the films! For the week, yeah. Look, look at the proper Tuesday. programme! Monday! Saturday! Saturday. I know but they're the films! You want the proper Mm. programmes! Well you could have fooled me! Proper, proper That's it! programmes. That's it. Yes dear. What's on Sky? One moment. One moment. Channel Four back a bit no One, Two Well it's probably over the page! No bef , after! Are they stuck together? Your fingers have Eight A M. Well no! Well that's The La gone darling! Hitchcock's, Lady Vanishes. I've seen that times Oh. It's more this afternoon and tonight, I shall Yeah. be busy this morning. Anything? I'll see what I ca That you like? fancy. What about me? Oh well, shall I read them all? No! No! Oh! Read what's on this afternoon. And I can te , I can tell whether I might like it. Twelve fifteen, Love Happy, Groucho Marks. No, I don't like him. Two fifteen, Striker Malibu Detective. Detective , no I don't want that. Burt Reynolds. Mm. Four fifteen, Our Sons mothers of a gay couple. Ooh! I don't want that! Six fifteen, Frankenstein, Boris Karloff . Don't want that. Er that's . What's on the other movie channel. Sky satellite. No, Sky One there's nothing it's mostly wrestling Saturday afternoons. What Si does ska , the six P M,Rob er, Robin of Sherwood. No! No! That's a silly thing! Drink your tea that's on there. Let me look. Mm,no , haven't got Oh that's twelve . Do they know? Yes. That's Sunday you're looking at! Well cos there was nothing on Saturday! Oh you were looking in, on Sunday in advance. They're cleaning all the seed up, the pigeons. Yes, well they better! They won't , don't usually do that. It is biggest come down. As big as a big cockerel ain't they? Yeah. It's big! Do you reckon he fathers them all? They wouldn't be all his wives would they? I don't know! I know nothing about pigeons! Well you don't Oh, Esther Rantzen's on Saturday now. You know, That's Life. I get a bit fed up with that. You might, you might not know about pigeons, you know what comes naturally don't you? Mm. Eat all those. If there's eight, er pigeons with him it's and he's the only er . There's th that cello Tortellio. I like him. What's that about? Er, he's a famous cellist! Oh. Oh that one he He had cello, you know the he used to be in the Masterclass teaching the Well I think he did, sometimes. students? Yes. Mm. I'll have another cup then if it's spare? Mm. right. You're not going out this morning are you? Well Did you want the windows cleaning? As I say, it looks a nice day if you were wrapped up you could later on, go a little walk. Did you want the windows done? Would they No. might freeze. No you don't want to ooh! I'm Erm not sure if I put sugar in. See. it might freeze under there. See. Whoosh! Oh! Do you know what's on the Here , there's two biggies now! Well there were three yesterday! I think the other one might be, oh yeah, it's the to the . Well Dirk Bogarde's on at nine. What's th , what's th that? Well he just talks about his career. Oh bi , it's not that er po Breaking the Code, that's the one No. I want to see. Oh, that's the one you want to see. Well what's that, Cicero? No, he he he he he has to break a code, you know, like Oh! he broke the er Mm. Japanese code, it's he has Mm mm. a office with a lot of girls. Hi , his film is King and Country, World War One. Oh. About a deserter at a court marshall. I think we saw that the other week! On Sky. Possibly. Possibly. Anyway, it's on till eleven forty, a bit late. We've seen most of them. Well it's a bit late. Oh! Cilla's on, Blind Date. I'm getting a little tired of that. Oh it's some, bit of fun sometimes. What's all this? What's that? Ooh that's a for the stylus int it? It's off the er, yeah it's off the old music box we used to have. Where did you find that? Well it's off the old gramo we used to have. I know, but I'm just wondering how it's got on there. Probably when we were emptying the , bits and pieces. Mm. Has the robin been this morning? Didn't see them. Saw the two blackbirds and the thrush. The thrush er lowered his wings in er you know, you know Temper. how they do when th they're trying to scare some of them off. Drink your tea then. Thrush, they're not fighters but they're, they're, not cowards they'll you know, have a go. Who, the thrushes? I've never seen them. They do, he lowers his wings and crouches. You know, it's the er attacker. They've eat all that seed you you're going to run out before we get another Well lot. At least they'll die happy won't they? I don't know ! Well they had er, they had all that this morning, they should go for a little while. What are you going to do about that conifer? Are you going to take that er clothes line Line down and chop them down now. Ye , oh yeah, show me where you want the line will you? I shall probably want the line fitted like this on Monday. Well it held the conifer didn't it? Mm. Kept it from Well I'll get another one when I'm in town. What, another conifer? No! Another line! Oh! So that if it goes again I can get a cheap one then you can use a cheap one to tie it to the fence. Yeah. Expedite the tying up businesses. Yeah. Well I mean it might blow when, when I've got washing on the line or That's unusual! or still be on it when I, when Un I want it. What? Unusual , two pa , pigeons! No, there were three yesterday! Those big ones. I mean close together. Why? Well don't they usually attack? I don't know. At least er imitation attack. Mm, there's plenty of feathers about the garden. Yeah. I reckon it probably keeps the cats in. What this weather? Do you thi , I don't think it does! Well they don't like stepping across icy grass I should have thought. Mm. Do you want any more tea, is that enough? I went and looked in the dustbin to see if he was back in there but . You can't lift it! Couldn't shift it, no. Is the di , is the light still on on Mm. the outside? Oh yeah. And your onions are there under the light. Ooh! I don't want them there! Why? Well you want to keep them cool. Well do , well they're on the floor. Oh! Well put them in one of those cartons. What about the potatoes? Well there's not many left. Oh well, they'll be alright. That's what I say, we've go , we've got to go first time out next week Mm. ge go to the farm and get a bag. Well I'm not going out when the salts on! I know! I know, keep the car Well it's not that, I've gotta for posterity! I've gotta wash it off haven't I? These? Yeah. The er have you seen that er card I'm going to paint? No I haven't! You found it once and now You told me to put it in the safe place. Yes , I did! Well it's that safe we can't find it! Well you better have another good look then! Have you looked under the stairs? I've looked everywhere! About where it is. Well where's that ? That's what we've got to find out! Well, you better start again systematically! Well, I've been systematic. No you haven't! I've emptied the drawers, I've looked under the You've not looked under the stairs! You've not looked in the bookcase! Well that's boot polish , I wouldn't put it It's not! You er there's a lot of painting under there. I wouldn't put it there! Yes you would! You've been interfering haven't you? That's it! No I haven't me Yes you have! Now moved some of these records and, you might find it there if you clear up a bit! Your interfering again! I'm not! Well these records that want taping. Well, put those in a, different place from those you've already done. And keep all your things to paint in a separate Well I better next box or something. get my drawing board for starters, I suppose. And er Well have you got any shopping to couldn't you move some there you do? Not really. No. Well I'll start then. Well you don't want to go out in the car so stop and do a bit of painting. Painting. Okay. What did you want to show me? But you know your Leave my don't destroy that carbon it costs a pound for a Oh. few sheets! I know, but I found some screwed up, in the garage! Yeah. Well you , I thought you'd started a book to put those, all these paper cuttings? I did and then I took them out. That's my Why did you take them out? reading from the er Victory that. Mm. You'll have to do all that Just found that when you get a minute. So . Now, look you'll lose this again! Put it safe! Have you read that from the Merry Widow? Yeah. Yes you have. Oh. Oh golly! And how many years Taking the ago is that ? taking the . Is this what you found when you were looking for that card? For that , yes. There's the er, Constable's Bluebell Wood I painted. Mm. There's Choiss Who's that? Choiss and Oh! Archadians! They do, er I pu , I thought you got these in those Yeah I er scrap book? Well as I say, I'm going to put it in the big one once a year. Christ! It's gone. There was a write up in the newspaper I found, I must have put it back. Well are they some of those snaps? Yes, I know but No but keep them all separate! I me , well you can never find anything if you got them all over the place! Ah this is it! Taffy goes back with Petra . Just read it out. No! I will. I can't read that little bit. One of the last jobs of Leicester serviceman Taffy he retires shortly has involved working on a machine of the type he first handled fifty years ago when he joined the B U. The machine, an original Boston Tacker from the early nineteen hundreds was prepared by Taffy for showing at the exhibition this month at Wellingborough branch. The organizers of the exhibition wanted a Boston Tacker to stand in the foyer to tie in with the theme of the seventy fifth anniversary of the B U locating however, locating the complete model has proved something of a headache like the Model T Ford, the Boston Tacker was always very common but is now something of a rarity and the branch had finally settled for head to be borrowed from C and J Clarke, shoe machi , museum in Street, Somerset. Luckily, Taffy returning from his annual holiday remembered that there was a complete Tacker in the factory of a local manufacturer still being operated. The directors of the firm kindly gave B U permission to borrow a Tacker for the exhibition and after Le Leicester branch arranged a temporary replacement, Taffy began working, cleaning up the machine to showroom condition. Taffy spent five days cleaning, polishing, painting he copied the motives which were missing from and old nineteen hundred and eight B U machinery catalogue which he examined with a watchmaker's glass. Taffy spent the majority of his time at B U as a serviceman at Risden and Leicester branches, but had an eighteen month period during world war two assembling jet engines at Powerjets, Wexton His wife and he lives in Spencefield area of Leicester . Good! I'd forgotten all about that. Anyway, I couldn't read that with my eyes! Oh, about this other. What? B U chooses Yes. Oh I know Well read that, I can read that. I've got to make this marmalade now. B U choose the Merry Widow because their last show White Horse was so successful the B U Musical Society have decided to take on the ambitious task of tackling the Merry Widow for their next production. Leading the cast will be Mary I can't who had played many leading roles for the Leicester Operatic Society. Frank who had a been a member of this society for more than twenty six years. The White Horse was our most sec successful show to date says Mr Percy secretary to the group. Mm. Arthur, I can't und do the top of the wheelie bin it's still frozen. Well that's alright. I know! But I've got Leave it. my other rubbish to Oh. put in, it's full!. Well I I I did try see if the cat was in it but it was frozen. I shall have to er, thaw it out. What's all this? Well something I've picked up. No, I meant that? Leicester United Athletic Club are producing but once a year in the si , in the club's theatre, here are two scenes . What's that? There's the Quaker girl. What year was that? The Quaker girl? Don't say it though. It should say the year! Nineteen sixty two. Oh God! That's going back a bit innit? Thirty years! Mm. I've been busy in my day ain't I? Mm. Yeah well you want to keep them to , in one place not Mm. have to go through looking through them every time you want something. I do exactly as you say! I'm under Mhm. orders! That's it. Is it going round ? That's it . Is it going round ? No. Is it? It's stopping. Now my arm's nearly better I still can't get my wedding ring on. And yet it So don't look all that swollen does it? Well do you want me to do it? I've got the No. No. The wedding ring wasn't cut off, it was only the engagement ring and we've sold that. No. Yeah. I mean it don't look all that swollen does it? No. And yet, it won't Well your go on. knuckles protruding there. Not on the next one. That one is that one's swollen Well I know , but that Yeah. but it won't go over my knuckle. Mind you , you've got it bound yo you're sort of restricting the blood aren't you? No, not now! So I think you'll have to buy me a new one. Oh well that can't er How's that coming? What are these, all the shows? That's er All the films from That's the erm Archadian. Bluebells Bluebell Wood. Bluebell Wood. Copy. And that's And that's the er Clock tower. it's the er Houses of Parliament. Copy of . Is that your hanky or mine? Which? They're what One of those. what I'm rubbing these down with. Ah! Oh this is mine. Frost's not going is it? No. Jackie's just gone off now. What, shopping do you think? Or to the church. Have We you got the glue or else I meant to look out for her, show her the picture. Oh well perhaps want to catch her when she comes back. Haven't you got a brush? Well I had a a worn out little paint brush and I rolled it on so I kept my hands dry. Well you can fi , we got But it's, it was on the Welsh dresser for a little while. You've er disappeared it as you usually do! Will you want this table clearing of all these It was on that kitchen shelf for Yeah, a long while weeks! yes. Do you want all this table at all? No, not yet, I've not put the chops in yet. Oh. What time shall we have dinner? Are yo , you're not going out are you? No, I won't bother. Too cold? Well I'm not worried about that but, I'm interested in this you know. Okay. Do you actually want to? No I'm not fussy. It's going. Erm so you going to see Any Questions? As you didn't see it last night, before I get Yeah, just wanna watch start getting the dinner? What you mean before? Yeah. Oh. Well it's on in er half an hour. Well it weren't all that, but i if you want to we can try. Well you didn't hear the beginning did you? No. You only saw heard a bit of it. Shall we do that then? Yeah. I want that on first. Oh. And clear up. Right. Leave it on. Leave it on ! Erm Oh. so clear all them cuttings Clear everything up. cuttings and photographs up. Do you want this one? Anyway , you don't want Do you want this one in and so Well you could put it in. It's a holiday snap isn't it? You know all the, the proprietors they ha , they have horses that pulled the co carriages they had a race. I mean, it's a holiday snap so put that in. They had a race, you know You won't be getting up-to-date th anyway. all the horses that pulled the coaches. Yeah. Well Up the hill. Now put everything straight Up the hill. so you know where it is. Have you done with ma my scissors? Yes. Right. Yes. Nothing else is there? To er Oh no , just clear up. clear up? No? Okay. If they're coming in tonight. There's something on the floor down there! Yeah. Stop it. That's it. Well what did you think to Any Questions? Better this week wasn't it? Yes. There weren't so much bickering were there ? No, but it was still like a political broadcast in a way Broadcast, yeah. from each party. But the any answers was Oh is this going? the any answers was er quite good this week Yeah. I thought. A bit the anti-smoking bit, on a bit too long. Don't you think so? Yes well, does Tom, your Tom have it? I don't know, I'm not sure. Well he don't smoke much. No. I in fact now, he doesn't smoke when Madge is in the room. But I still think He waits till she's gone to bed. Mr Churchill had nine inch long cigars sent him at Christmas and Really? he was smoking like, and he were ninety odd! Yeah. Well they daren't sa , er What, how do you com Yes, well. compare that with like with like? Yes, but they used to say cigar smoking's not as bad as cigarette smoking. Cigars Cigars. Oh. Mm. That's what they I shall be up that's what they say There's there's more in this and Tom only smokes a pipe now, he don't smoke cigarettes. Yes, but there's mo more emission from a cigar in a car than a cigarette. Well he just didn't smoke in cars. Mm. I don't know. And do you remember we went to er David's er, one Sunday with me to his grave and when we come out of cemetery that public house across the road Ah yeah! That one. I took you both in and, you couldn't see across the room! No. Well they hadn't got the fans on there. No. When I spoke about it th the barman rushed across and put the fans Put the fans on, yeah. But how do you reckon all those went? Yeah. You cou , it ju literally, you, you could hardly Oh I know! see the bar! I know. A and it was down steps as you went in. Wasn't above the ground, it were sort a three feet below the ground. Mm. So there by hangs a tale. Mm! Mind you, you can make fors and agai , er fors and er against for most things can't you? Course you can. Over eating can do it can't it? I mean, look at er, George Bush in America, he's tried to act like forty, as I've tried to do a , and you have to pay for it. I mean, it's one thing running along the road before breakfast when you're twenty isn't it? Well no! Another thing you'd be e ,yo you have a, you eat more when you're old, or appear to. No you don't. I'm eating more than You don't eat no you don't! You don't eat nearly as much as you used to. Oh! Oh well. Seems a lot when I have to go through How? with it. I know, but, but you used to have mid-morning snack Ah! But I was nine years in er digs. Yes, I'm not disagreeing. And you don't get they don't overfeed you in digs. Well, that was when you were young! Cos the whole object of the exercise is to have a lodger is to pay yo your way. Ah I know. Well you needn't go into all that. Well that's I know but you It's a known fact, we'd still do you don't, you Have you pressed that? You are now recording, yes we're recording. Recording. Oh so that should be alright then Yeah. shouldn't it? Have you mashed the tea? Yes after all that I is there anything else you want to fix? No, after all that trouble changing the I don't know why it went went wrong the first time do you? Are the birds coming? Yes. They've ate all the seed and that bread's still there. I'm making a cup of tea. Has the robin been? No Is there some salt on is there? Yeah. Well he, he often is. Did you hear that? Yeah. The robin was at the back door. I've thrown another handful. He's getting brave. And the blackbird. Do you want some whisky in your tea? Er yes You're not going out. might as well. Er is it Is it still recording? Yeah, no I dunno it's re going round. I didn't know whether you'd put the, stopped it. Mm mm No you can leave it, might as well leave it on. Yes. Well it's funny it's working this time int it? Well there's so many things to go wrong int there? You've gotta watch it all. Is there any, do they want any bread? Or have you thrown it all? I've thrown some out. Mm. They've got some. Ah after all that trauma . It's going to be a bad frost tonight. I know, shall I put the gas fire on, as well? No, I'm warm enough. I'm not very warm. It's getting dark isn't it? I mean you did the same with that as you did with the other didn't you? The only thing that was different is that, that it's not starting on the same Well you get obsessed with that but you're comparing it with yours. I was just sitting figuring it out. You're comparing it with our You know the ones you put in? thing with our system. Well no y she couldn't put the B side in cos she s you've got to put the A in. Yes. You put the A in. The only way you can get it A right would be putting the B side in but you've gotta start with A. It's rather curious that. Well you, you always do on yours when you're recording on our er set don't you? But you're obsessed with the position of the, the tape. Well I compare like with like don't I? What's this one in here, the d Leave alone and I'll sort them out. Well that's what I'm saying. Well Ah, there, that's it. That's it. Now do you want any cake with that second cup of tea? Yes I'll have a slice. There's not Have you got much left? Yeah there's half of it left. Oh. Yes but if you're not here you won't will you? Well I shall be in a minute, I've only just got to go in the kitchen and get it. No! It won't matter for a minute or two. On my daughter's wedding day ten thousand pounds I'll give away. On second thoughts I think it best to put it back in the old oak chest . How big ? Normal. Some folk sing opera, some folk sing jazz, some sing like sawing wood, I sing like that. But when the dickie birds sing in the trees I think we ought to try and sing like these. Well what's all that in aid of? Let's all sing like the birds can sing You needn't sing on it. Shut up! tweet tweet tweet, tweet tweet And eat that cake. Is it as good as mine or better? come from there. Yes Is this as good as mine or better? This is Madge's cake. Ooh I think I like yours the best, this is a bit heavy. It's not heavy! It looks like rain or snow. I think it's too cold to snow. That mark's gone off my arm, I think that erm bandage was too tight. Well you'd better leave it off then for now. Well I don't know, it's Well if it's better for you I should. I don't know that it is. It gave me a bit of support but Not much, I wouldn't have thought much, it's elastic. I know but I should have thought by now it 'd 've been better. Look in the doctors' book, it might tell you how long you have to suffer. Well I think as you get older you take longer to heal. If it's, if there's not any frost we could go to Sainsburys in the morning. Mm. And do some shopping. A bit of shopping, yeah. Unless we go on the bus. Hmm don't be silly!big shopping on the bus. Besides it doesn't even go in till about about every hour. Do they go on a Sunday still? Not very often. Well I'm alright for everything till about Tuesday. Mm. How, you know the last time you saw the doctor, how long did he say you'd got before it completely He didn't say. Mm eat all that cake, you're not giving that to the birds. Mm They've not ate, ate half the potatoes and bread that's there now. You're not supposed to speak with your mouth full. Hmm. There goes the marzipan, all on the floor. You cost me a fortune in soap. What are you giving that cake to the birds for? I told you not to. What are you giving that to the birds for? Is this your handkerchief on the floor? Is this your handkerchief on the floor here? I think so, that's mine. Mm. Now finish that cake. Any more tea? Yeah, please. You've had two. Well I'll have three then won't I? Well you're not having any more whisky in this. Now it's going now. Everything you say now records on there. What I'm saying now is, is on there, all what I'm saying. And do you know, I said to Evelyn blimey my voice, ain't it different, it sounds a awfully different to y her voice. You say that, Audrey w er just bought a camcorder and she said I didn't realize what a, you know, Leicester accent I've got. Who, who's that? One of the girls at work. Oh, mm. She's got a real Leicester accent, you know? Mm. Whenever I answer the phone at work, every time I pick it up everybody knows it's me, you know, cos I'm the only Londoner in the office. Yeah mm. Yeah. You feel the cold perhaps Jackie? No I'm alright now I'm inside. I've turned it down now. Oh have you? It does get a bit, it does get a bit hot. Well the heating's hot enough but Arthur feels the cold. int it? Arthur feels the cold. Does he? Cos Tom doesn't, Beverley and I, ooh dear. Well, well these are comfortable Yeah, well I'm a bit like that, I can't wear a jumper because I, I and yet years ago I always used to wear Yeah. It certainly feels different now with central heating, that's Mm Jackie any of your grandchildren look like that? Mm yeah, that's mother and me. He's been doing that album. Talk about I reckon that, er Evelyn's niece said er I said that's how they used to dress boys, I said ho she said why I said probably Well er a picture of my dad, do you remember that, my dad, when he was er Yeah. very young, he was in a dress. Mm. Yes well that's how But I said but that was about nineteen fourteen, nineteen fifteen. Yes well that would be the same as Arthur because he was I said born nineteen O nine. I said to him , well wh what are you wear he had a dress and long boots up to there. I said Yeah. Well her daughter's got long boots on that hasn't she? Yeah. We've er, he's just been getting all the photos stuck down on those cards. He's got years to do. Do you keep one? Oh yeah? Well we, we've got erm We've got a like a Cellophane? Yeah cellophane. The hol the holiday photographs were gonna be sort of albums in a plastic thing but Mm, mm. but their own personal ones we've got them either in frames on the, on the sideboard or erm Yes but the, the general ones we've got in those flip you know when I was off, when I had my cartilage removed in my knee, well I was off for six weeks so I got all the photographs and put them in order, the children and us, you know? Mm. It took me weeks to do it didn't it? Sorting them out. Mm well it took Ar it's taking Arthur because he's got oh sna shut that door Arthur cos Jackie Jackie will be in a draught. Shut it properly Arthur. Oh, sorry. Oh Tom's not brought his glasses. Do you want the ? Yes it's a bit draughty, to the neck I find. You're getting, I can't go anywhere without my glasses. I can't. I went to the er er fourteens and er I was there quite a while and er I, I got a booklet in with all different nationalities and er it said Welsh, Taffy, you see, Taffy is Welsh, up here, is a Welsh name. And er I was showing it to chap next to me, tall chap, he took a fatherly interest in showing me how to work you know when foreman was out and er ooh he said there's a bloody Taffy. Well fo a at sixteen I went into the department that built the machines and er I was, I think it was bell was going for lunchtime and a lad come by says hello Taffy how you going on in here? So that department got it. And then er Everybody did it. er I we I think somebody were crossing the weren't they? When we were first married and coming across there then he says blimey Taffy what you doing up here? And n now everybody's got it . And that's why I put that in. What do you make of that Tom? What was that? No the bit about the machine . Yeah I saw that, yeah, mm, yeah. What's that, your retirement thing? No when they Oh. wanted, they wanted a machine for an exhibition Oh aye that one, yeah. and er I spent a week nearly doing it up. We, we've still got piles of photographs haven't we, do you take many? Ooh well there's quite a few, yeah. Not, well, when the children were born, the grandchildren, we started to take a lot more but we don't take quite as many now. No. Sometimes on holidays, you know? Mm. Have you booked this year's? Yes, we're going to Crete. Oh, that's another Greek island isn't it? Yeah. Where did you go last time? Where did you go? Oh yes. Mm. The smaller, one of the smaller islands. You've booked it have you? Yeah. Ooh. I'm looking for the German U boats, when er that's the beginning of the German U boat U boat pens. Evelyn took some of these with her little camera and it weren't very good. That's er the mystery one Ian took. But I took some better ones. Shows you what they was up to, aye that's it. Tom won't be interested in that. Look at that then Tom. That's what we was up against. Great big deep submarine pens And that's only one that's only one part of it. you know in er near La Rochelle. No wonder we didn't bomb them. They were s No they're very very heavily fortified aren't they? Mm. Look. he wouldn't know that. they had three or four lots. Would you like a drop more sherry? No I'm fine. Ooh you've not drunk that yet. Have you seen the satellites erm y you know, our satellite places? You know, down in Land's End? Oh those, no, no. Satellite dishes, we went t when we went to Falmouth they took us on a trip there, it was interesting. I think that's a bad Is it on the downs? that's a bad one Er yes, that's it, erm Is it Goonhilly Downs Yes Goonhilly Down Ah yeah. And that's one, that's one Evelyn took and she got the light in but that's it look. Gosh. And th they're marvellous things. They're huge aren't they, really? Mm. And there's not many men working on them, you know, it's all sort of great big massive dials and er Ooh. How many how many of these dishes are there? Ooh quite six, all around a big field. Oh about six. Six of them all all round this great big field. So w were they all pointing Cornwall. in different directions or? Mm. Yeah. There you are there they are i in all directions look. That's only a bit of them. I think I took some of those, I've only got a And that's, that's the fence well round round where when, when Arthur bought his camera I said to the man er do you think I'll be able to use it ? And he said he said well so he said I'll give you this one. Lit it's a little Russian one. But it, it's not go not got any gadgets on. It's pictures. But they've got a picture of sunlight, cloud and all things like that. But it doesn't take some bad pictures really. No No, no. I mean I do I can't What do you think to the submarines Tom? They say it was only a part of it, you know, because we only had half an hour, didn't we, there and then No we had about an hour or so. Well not too long anyway. I recommend these bus things though, abroad, they were lovely weren't they? Well you fly and What was that, that with the boats in the in the river? That's Thames isn't it? Int that the Eiffel Tower? This is, er yeah it's the Eiffel Tower, not the Thames, the Seine. Yes Eiffel Tower. Not the Th er S yes, the, yes I, I saw that and I thought Yeah it's the Eiffel Tower we went on that boat. Mm. That's what, oh no we were on a boat and we took that, but it was a similar boat to what we went on. Oh yes it is the, the column of the Eiffel Tower is hidden by those buildings isn't it? It's just Yes. behind it, it looks as though No we took we took er that was, that's a lovely trip if you go to Paris. I'd like to go but Tom's not that interested. Well we only, on the way down yes. on the way down, and it was a lovely Sunday morning and er, you know, it was Yeah. well one of the girls said to me who sort of tagged on to us, she was on her own,er she said er what was the highlight of the holiday and she said that trip down the Seine Yeah. and the Sunday morning sort of all round Paris and all that. doing a trip, you know, a two day trip Mm. you know trouble is it's, it's either May weekend or it's I can't get the time off Yeah there'd be a lot there then. but you know I'd like to go, you know, say a couple of days. What about your Yugoslavia? Well I know I went four years running Yeah. It's, it was, it was er er sheer coincidence that Beverley had been to Crete the year before and I said to Jackie we've been to Yugoslavia four years, do you want, do you want a change or do you wanna go back to Yugoslavia, she said well I'll, I'll have a look, I said how about, how about going to the Greek islands for a change Yeah. she said alright, and we changed and Yugoslavia came out like that. Yes and you 'd 've had to have cancelled anyway wouldn't you? One of our friends that we'd met were there, they'd been there a couple of weeks And they had to come back. a week before the July fortnight and they had to come back. I always wanted to go but when Tito died I said to Arthur ooh it might be a bit risky. And then it got that it blew over didn't it? Mm. Yeah. And so w Well I mean when we to go I mean the tourism and they were just we've never been. beginning to bring them up, you know Yes. give them a better style whatever, yeah. Well someone gave me a lovely address in erm mm But they made us so welcome, the tourists, you know they were fantastic. Mm. Well I know everybody er I've spoken to really thought Yeah. and it w wasn't too expensive originally was it? No it wasn't. No, no it was cheap i i i it was er when we first went It was getting expensive. Yeah. it was a lot cheaper than here and when we last went it wasn't quite as er as cheap there as it was h it, it was always cheaper than here but not quite such good value was it? Mm. No. No. It was still very good Have you lost your headache from this morning? Sorry? Jackie er er said you'd got a headache this morning, has it gone? Oh yeah. all got it at work, it's being in an office. Have they got flu? When one gets it everybody gets it. Mm. There's, there's several had the flu and there's three of them next to me with a headache yesterday. They all we Mm. were quite pale and I thought here we go it's me next . And er What about Bush then? He, he passed out didn't he? Collapsed Yeah. that was terrible. But I just remember But mind you he's a bit he's a bit silly, looking back at myself er er three year, or was it two year back, or one? You know I, I've got a big laurel and it was coming right over what we call the roundabout so I decided to have a go at it. Well I got some foot long pruners but the branches were hitting our thing and I were doing this and, you know, and now I've got And that's what's shoulder. a frozen shoulder in each, when I go like that in bed, ooh it's terrible. And er I thought I can do what I did at forty, and I did it, but look what I've got now. Yeah. Mm. And that, getting back to Bush, he's doing the same thing isn't it? He's been jogging, he's doing some footballing Well it's the pr the pr the pressure, the pressure on him to be Take that picture from the it's come off that hook. Yeah it's handy to put up Well my, I rang my sister, said are That's a really good picture that. you coming round tomorrow afternoon? Tom . It's a bit odd isn't it, to say the least. because it's her er daughter's birthday and I usually give a present to take round . Ooh she said er I've got a bad cough. It seems unusual. It, it w it would have been nice to have asked him, you know, how come they took it? What was the reason for it. Is that the one that was poorly over Christmas? Yeah. Because it's not very high up. No that was young sister. No it can't be can it? No, no. It's not very high up at all. Unless he's got a er Mm. er er Well I was out there watering at time scares was on and I had this letter and planes did come over and I laid me ho hosepipe down, I mean you know so he wouldn't be able Well planes are always coming over cos there's an airport just over there, that's right,airport. It's the aerodrome yeah. Yes but why did he say why's my grass greener than everybody else's? Yeah well that was just a comment, silly. Ah I don't know. I don't think they could say anything, as I say there was no hosepipe ban then anyway so You say just a comment comment, what about that letter we had ? Yeah well It seems to be a pain in the neck me cleaning the sometimes there's a lot of dog dirt, on yours as well as mine, and I, I and they were quite er happy to do that, yet it seems to irritate somebody over there. Still. What about Mrs ? Nice isn't it? Breaking her ankle. Put those Put them on the floor Jackie. How is Mrs ? I've not heard. She came across for the first time today, I was out egg yard getting some eggs Mm? and she poddled over, she said she'd been across to Fernbury Lodge for the first time Oh yesterday. mm Cos I thought she m I said have you been to the shop, thinking, I meant up here Mm. and she said no she'd been to pay her poll tax over there, she said she'd had a rest in one of the shops over there on the way Mm back, so She's doing alright. I didn't think they were like that, did you, these satellites? Oh! You know. Ah these, I thought they were yeah I was trying to think. I think, they, they're quite large aren't they? Mm. I, I've not been near one, I wouldn't know but you have to stand next to them to get an effect, to kn know how big they are. to get the er how big they are yeah. That's right. Mm. And it showed you all the sort of countries of the world, you know, on lights and, and that, and which light was for which wh when they took us round the er Oh that was interesting. control room you know. Well yes you, you know the De Mont the stage and the organ and all that? It looked just like that Mind that glass! er and the man was sitting there at a looked like a lot of A telephone looked like a great big piano, you know, with like the buttons and he were doing this and they've got every country within range on the wa on whatever it was, wall or a gantry, and if that wasn't too, too good he, he were doing something and it come up. And, and, and all, he'd got all countries' television er going, you know, so you could look at any country at the moment, the moment it was producing. Mm. I thought it were wonderful. Aye. It's er marvellous. When we were kids we'd never of dreamt of this would we? Oh no. Yet the kids all seem to er adapt to it just like that. Yeah. Very very And the, the son-in-law's got a, a computer hasn't he? And his Mm. the little one, she's only four, Mm. and er D er er Dave was showing me how it works and he went out and the little one was saying I'll do it for you granddad, look this is how you do it, and she starts typing away, and she's four! Four! Just, you've gotta go on that, and she presses it and the chart thing which is press that one and it'll get rid of it all. Doing and it all disappeared. And I thought ooh f you know, we were I know my, my sister's er grandson, he's had a computer, he's fourteen and er anyway, oh he wanted a bigger one costing about eight hundred pounds. And now he's, they've got one and I think it was about five hundred pounds, they bought this one s but they managed to sell the other one for about a hundred and fifty they say. Mm. Now he's got that, he says he wants a wordprocessor. Mm. Mm. And they're expensive aren't they? Er yes they are. Ooh he, he's m mind you he, he reckons that's what he wants to do when he's older but I mean the life, or the career of anybody in computers is not very long is it? Because they're changing so rapidly. Yes, yeah. I mean my, one of my friend's sons, he was a computer man, he was working on his own but he's in his I should think he's getting on for about forty six and he was doing freelance but this recession the people who er the firms who were employing him are using their own staff and they're not calling on him now and er he's not done any computing for twelve months. Mm mm. The building n next to us, where we are, you know do you, on Mm. Street? There's a big glass building next to us, have you seen it, it's Mm. quite huge? And that was all, that was all computers, all computers. Yes we kept going there when yeah. Th th that's going now Yeah. because somewhere er headquarters, they're going to do the work for all the region, so therefore they've gotta go They're, yeah. So all those computer people are out Yeah. and you think Christ what's Well erm I mean Andrew, he was very clever, he went to university and as I say now he's nearly fif getting, getting towards fifty well even so he's buying a house and last December things got so bad he took a job as a dustman a at Anstey, he lives Yeah. at Anstey, and he said well, got to pay the mortgage. Yeah. Mm, that's right. I mean, I could be er mm maybe they're going to give us numbers on the seventeenth how many What as to how many people they're gonna keep or not gonna keep so Oh we don't know who's gonna go or what, you know, it's quite worrying really but er Oh it is really isn't it? Well you see he thought the Gas Board was here forever you know? Well you do don't you? But Well since they've gone private And especially these computers where they change every Mm. every few years don't they? It's, it's er they employed Yes they employed six thousand people and when the came they all went to Law Street adjacent to the factory so they could walk across to the job and er look at it now, they've smashed it all down, it's gonna be an Asian big store. It's all been levelled now and taken away and they employed No they're not, it's supposed to be being used six thousand people. I don't know whether you go down Valmer Road do you? Not very often no. I went, I went there about two years ago to Walkers Crisps and, that's just next door to er . I went by but yeah a lot of it's all down, there's still, still a part being kept though isn't there? Mm. Oh they've still got a small part there. Ah that's, that's the American section. That's right. Mm. American United. That's the We w we was partnerships you see well when our place collapsed they carried on just carried on a bit because they were connected with Japan. In fact er just before I retired they were saying, you know, my job's obsolete and that, and then and says oh we're opening up a big depot in Japan. So you see it's gone there you see. So you just retired in retired just about the right time. Mm. you know, it's gonna be difficult to get another job now, so You're in the drawing office? Yeah. Cos I've been silly in the past, I've told Evelyn lots of times and we had a new machine, a rapid na nailer, it er nailed er army sho er soles onto the at five hun it used to do three hundred and fifty nails a minute and we m made one just for I er went out on the road, er to five hundred a minute you see, and er we were building the first half a dozen and er er there's two pawls at the back of the machine Ooh we don't want to know. Ah but th th th there's a rack and w one goes on and holds the horn post up to the boot while it's driven, then it comes out and there's two, one's half a tooth, so it ensures one or the other's in, and they work like that. So I was spinning the cam round, it hadn't got pinned to the shaft, just spinning it round on the shaft and these pawls were doing this and Les , the top one, he went to Kettering and then Don, the next top one, he went to er We don't want to know all this. r er Northampton and then finally I went to Rushden, and er this top one,, and his mate come out of the toilet, been for a smoke, and er walking by I said hey Les, look at this, and I spun the cam round and it went bang and stopped dead. He said well you've got no bloody springs on the pawls, I says so I picked a tin of springs up, we kept it for anybody who wanted a spring for their bike, any spring where, you know the hooks on each end? Mm. Well they broke off in wear and when you was overhauling a machine you'd throw these springs in the tin in case you ever wanted one. And he said er oh he says er er there's no, your spring's broke. I s so I showed him this tin full, I says well look they do break don't they? Anyway, do you know the easiest, er and at that time five pound were five pound, if I 'd 've gone to the foreman and then the er Drawing office. drawing office, I 'd 've got five pound on a suggestion. Anyway in the fullness of time er went to er You said that. near Kettering, Don went to er Northampton and then finally I went to Rushden and er I'd been there about a year and all of a sudden there was a call in for Shorteners at so I went down on the bike and er what er the one over me who, who was elderly, well wasn't over me but he was er he was on my job but the senior man on it he come in, the boss had sent him in to have a look cos the er Shorteners were complaining, and er then they rang up for one of us, he said well I'm not leaving till I've solved this problem so I had to go. But er all he did was, you know the two pawls that go in and out? He made a bit of eight inch wire, like er a U piece, and the bar at, bottom bar of the U held the tail so if the springs broke the tails didn't duck under and smash the cam. It'd smashed the cam and, and the lever and bent the shaft colossal expense at that time. Mm expensive Now him and his mate says ooh er you, your spring's broke. Now I were bloody daft, If I 'd 've gone to the foreman and wanted to put a suggestion in, I, I, I 'd 've beat sure they were crowing abou when he got but I was first really wasn't I? Mm. I, I'd seen it before it happened Mm. you see, and three more went like that eventually but er he got the dough and that was it. That was it, mm. And Evelyn always says I'm too diffident to push my plate up and Well, he used to come home and say that and I'd say put a suggestion in but Mm. Mm. if he did I had to write to out for him . Mm. Still we didn't do too badly. Anyway how long have you got to go before you retire? Ooh eleven years officially. Ooh. if it was up to me I'm Mm. gonna go in nine. I shall go at sixty three at the latest, I'm not going on to sixty five Not staying longer. and it might end up No, no. There's certain rumours that there's no Still you might get a a big redundancy pay out if you do. Well talking about a year's salary Is that You get a pension of course but it depends how many years Yes you get a pension. you've been there and I've only been there thirteen years so Oh. that's not Not as good. they said about a quarter of my salary didn't they? Mind you how many years were you in your pension? Not all that many. From the beginning weren't it? No you weren't No? the B U didn't have a pension scheme till after the war. No, no. But talking about pensions i Do you get a pension in yours? Only my own what I put in, no. I've been paying a full stamp since nineteen seventy four. Yes, it's a good idea isn't it? Yeah. The sad thing is Well my friend never paid Tal talking about pensions Tom, the chap er cha with the office girls and that and, and checking our expense sheets, he, he er they put a notice on the board you could ante your what, in your pension, you could a put a bit more into it and I were looking at notice and he says ooh he says it's no good for you, he says er w well I told you about it didn't I? Yes. And I said ooh He said ooh he says you won't get no more if you retire. So I mentioned it to Evelyn and, being an office-wallah, you know, and any, any e extra money she were all there, she worked it out says ooh that, it were another ten bob a week you see, well we've been Which was a lot in those days. Mm. Well you had a rise as well. we've been glad we've been glad now haven't we er So he anted his up. I mean ten shillings was a we a we was Mm, quite a lot, yeah. years ago. Yes but we're glad now . Oh yes because now mind you the B U pension's quite good because every year we, we get a p a percentage increase Mm. Mm. but I mean ours doesn't, mine doesn't, I mean mine's only a small one because I haven't done many years there. Ours goes cost of living it says. But er, oh that's alright if it does but the B U is, is, you know, a really good one. Mm. But you've got to get some years in to get a really good pension, but I've got thirteen and the maximum you can get is forty years but you get, then get two thirds of the salary you would have got, Mm. your own salary, so that's pretty good for a pension isn't it? You know. Still perhaps you get the earnings thing don't you? Earnings related as well sort of thing. That's being stopped though Has it? It's gonna be in the year two thousand they're gonna wipe it out. Oh, oh So that's it. Oh dear I'm not au fait with those things now. No well this is why w you know like my girls have got just to take their own now. Take their own private ones see, Yeah. Yeah my nieces are doing that, Audrey and er well her husband's self employed so er See all the firms I've been to up till the Gas Board just gave you your money back for your pension. Yes they did. If they could have said to you would you keep it and, or transfer it t I would've said yes please. Well they can do now, in those days they didn't. But they, they could but they they didn't in my day, they just No. gave it to you back and you got no choice in the matter, that was it. No they didn't, no, we didn't in our place. So that was a shame really as far as I'm concerned. Do you reckon the er Mm. Although Peter my friend's he, he did that but er it didn't come to much, they 'd 've saved it or something, one job, cos he was made redundant about three times and er one, one place he was at they're supposed to have kept it and paying him it now but I don't know how they came about that bu because actually they we played him a dirty trick, they persuaded him to leave his job and then about nine years or probably less than that later you know and he was out again, redundant and, you know, I think they felt a bit guilty but he only gets about five pounds a week from, off that one, which is Nothing is it? No. Er er do you reckon we ought to have had, you kn you know we went over to gas, I toyed with the idea of fetching that do you know, you know when this house were built we went looking at a depot where they've got all these grates and I took th funnily enough I took the measurements of the breast and er the only one we found was just that dead on look, right across Is that recorder still on? Oh yeah Oh ye yes, yes it's still going. Oh that's alright, finish one tape. Tape and Mm. well we shan't finish that lot shall we at this rate ? Well if you, if you finish three we're You can't very well go in a pub can you ? No not really. You've not seen Jackie's new lounge I er have you? No. It's beautiful int it? Well it will be when it's finished, the curtains are Have you finished? Well they came and fetched the curtains on Thursday, they've got to go back. Why, what's the matter with those? Not level, the dining room one was two inches shorter one side than the other, the tie-backs Really? were all creased, and the lounge Ooh is like this! They weren't level at all. They came back Ooh! back and they were disgusted so they've taken them down and gonna make me a complete new set. Oh, oh I didn't know that, mm. Yeah. And he suggested tie-back is, cos it's, the pink is the thinner material, they're gonna pipe it instead of what they've tried. Oh the machining was dreadful. Mm. Who, who was who was the Well Maples, they contract out to this Ooh! workshop Oh I see, Maples. But Cos they should be good there shouldn't they? Well this is it, the man was disgusted, he said oh dear. Yeah. They are very good though, they come when they say and they, they d they do something about it Oh they've been very good, oh yeah. Mm. Yes. they don't just leave it, they'll go and do it, you know? They've very good Mm. Cos we had Linekars, course they've gone out of business, but when he came, when the boss came to this one he reckoned one of these was a bit out didn't he? Mm. But this, I mean they measured, in fact he even measured the track to see the, make sure the track wasn't level, you know, and Yes. Cos the windowsill is about an eighth of an inch out, well in one place Mm. but he still, the curtain was supposed to be something like sixty one and a half inches one was about a sixty one and the other was about a sixty three one end, you know? Tt oh that's sad. Oh what a shame. As he said it was Christmas rush I think, you know? Yeah oh of course it was just before Christmas. But er you know they've just not done the edges properly either, you know . So they've all gone back. Luckily we've got the old curtains. Cos I've not seen it with the curtains No Have another drink Tom? Do you want a drop more sherry? just a little drop then Go on. just a small drop. You pour it out Arthur, I can't get that cork off very easily. Tom, here you are then Tom do you want some more No I'm fine. have a martini. No I'm fine thanks. Have a whisky. No! You can't mix the drinks. I thought Tom might have a whisky if he's got a that's a funny Oh I, I don't want to don't want to butt in Tom sometimes I feel I'm sh Ah never mind about it, what about with his new car? What sort is it? It's a Ford Sierra. E Evelyn Oh it's the same sort is it? Yeah he had a Ford last time didn't he? Yes it was a Sierra It's not quite the same, it was erm Maroon colour? Mm Do you reckon he's given,th there's been a lot of er goings er to-ings and from-ings, do you reckon they've had a whip round? No! I don't think he could've been insured do you? Well there's been no end, there's been no end to it. Well except for third party, how long It's funny, I don't know. Yeah. he left it there, do you? I don't know he's a s Mind you yours took a long time, you know that bump Tom had going to his Mm, mm. mother's funeral? That was April, it's only just, you know? Yeah but they sorted it straight away though didn't they? Yes but I mean you get get the repair done don't you? Ye yeah. Yeah. I mean that looked a write-off so I don't know Well erm You couldn't and he said it wasn't cos he Funnily, funnily enough he, funnily enough his car's on that picture It is oh well it is, it's there, yeah. M Martin said when he Have you noticed how he, he creeps that bit, he you know, he, he don't keep back he, he just he gets just that bit behind the Yeah. you know? during the day cos our cars are not there. No well that's what I said i er and probably perhaps when you were on holiday. The road intrigues me Tom Yeah. how clean it looks and the, you know the marks, those black marks, they're the joints of the concrete where they That's right, You know they kept It looks very clean doesn't it? Can you see the paving stones? They're white Yeah, mm, that's what, yeah. I've never noticed those before. Mm. Well that's the new bit they did, you know, the little Do you know y y you, it's a different aspect, you go out here and all you see everything at ground level and you can't really see on top of everything Yes, mm,s see low, no. But on there see you can see all the details can't you,at all. Mm. But I was struck, I was struck by the frame. I think that frame's worth it these days, I Yeah. I,but I reckon you've got a bit of money in the fra in the frame. Cos I was Oh that lady who came with this, she said er Arthur happened to say he'd just bought it, and she said how much did they charge you, twenty five pounds or thirty pounds? Mm. So I said no, only twenty. So apparently she said ooh he probably charges, perhaps if he's not very he reduces the price but funny she said twenty five pounds. She seemed to know about it. Yeah. And it's funny they came together and she, she pushed She knew, not quite together. in while I were with the other chap . No it was a minute afterwards because I thought Well oh he's come back for the, this, to show to you. Mm. I thought perhaps he'd been to you and sort of were you interested and he he'd come back. But it was only a second No. after er sort of I'd more or less half a second and I thought oh he's come back again But, but I had more to do with her than Evelyn but er from what little bits I've gleaned, you know, er I'm a bit into everything like, and I seem to think, I've got a f strange feeling that she's something to do with education and they're worried about children not speaking properly eventu No! Le let me finish. Er eventually they won't speak real English, with all this Asian kids in now al all the Asian children have gotta go in any school haven't they and th everything, well sooner or later er this mixture of languages is gonna spoil the English language isn't it? Bound to. Yes it's bound to. No what the they'll do, they'll put all the words that are used into a computer er from all these things won't they? And then they'll see how many are sort of used a lot and percentage and that's what they'll do. Mm. But as Arthur says though perhaps some of the Asian words will start being used by the English people. Oh, oh yes yes. Well it says on the, on the thing we have to fill in er if any of the speakers is of non Non ra er non English, yeah. English or something a different race if you like, you're to put it down . Because you only have to identify them by a name not not a Do you look at er C Cilla? not, not the surname, just J John or whoever Mm Mm and, but if any of them are of not U K origin Yes. you've got to put it down and say which one it is. Do you ever look at this Cilla er Blind Date? Oh did you see that tonight? Yes Did you see t what do you make of that blackie with that lovely lovely young girl, pretty as a picture, and he were doing this round her and leaning back, and his great big lips ooh ooh! Oh I hate it when white girl gets an Well if you were if she were your daughter Jackie what would you have thought? I know, well I ha didn't see it last week but Tom said No I didn't see it last week. she liked coloured people or something Something like that, yeah. when they were talking to her. I was, where was I? I don't know We didn't see last week's, I don't know, was something else on? But Tom said she was saying something about, you know, she liked coloured men or Well she liked one of the coloured film stars, I don't know which one it was though Well we we're not against, we're not against coloureds, the fact that er you, you want to keep your race,i if you've got a an alsatian or a, a bulldog, you don't mix it with a some o you keep them, another bulldog with it don't you? And breed your bulldogs else you lose your race don't you? Arthur don't like Sometimes on the television the, the do you? Not very much Not really they were showing something and er one of the er Asian lads says ooh I'm English now, and his mate says no you're not, you're British. This were in a school playground. Course being at home all day you see we see these things. That, that programme that follows that, we've never looked at it before, Barrymore er did you look at that? No I've seen it before We saw it once before seen it once but He's a , he's a bit funny isn't he? Yes, it was quite good really. Sometimes he's alright and sometimes it doesn't go very well. Yeah. Well he'd got a seven year old girl copying him hadn't he? Yes. I reckon he'd taught I reckon he'd taught her don't you? I didn't see the beginning. She were doing all this that and i the audience was screaming weren't they? Yes. But she'd got it off though hadn't she? Mm. Then they had er some fatty, fat ladies, elderly ladies, doing the can-can. Oh was it the Roly-Polies? Ooh that was grand. That was good . Similar to the Roly-Polies but this was a sort of erm an amateur group. Mm. Doing it for charity or We did, we did the Merry Widow and we had,th the Gazettes they're called,th the Gazettes and er they used to come out the wings with all this, you know? And as they run in er and I always thought it was the best of the show. Oh well er it is nice isn't it? Mm. But these were very fat weren't they? Made it more funny Yeah, yeah. Like the Roly-Polies, they were good weren't they? I've not seen them lately have you? Yeah didn't they, do you remember? Cos that, that,th leader gone now, she wasn't there but she turned up, she came on. Yeah. Mm. With the glasses. I like all the old silent er not silent, all the old talkies, you know the old black and white The old classic films. I like But they're on too late at night, I can't stand Yeah. late nights, can you? Well we're, well when we're at work I'm not quite so bad Do you, can you stay up, have you got a television Sometimes in your own bedroom? No. Oh. We in the bedroom Well Evelyn me, she has this Alf Garnett on, I don't know why cos she, she's a bit particular but Alf Garnett's beyond the pale Not always. and he swears and shouts. I said turn it down, you'll upset Tom and Jackie. But that was a classic, classic one they were talking about at Christmas When, last night? er in one of the series I don't know which one it was. And er Oh w well no you haven't got Sky, it's on Sky at Christmas he says er and he's talking about Jesus going to the inn, er sorry Mary er Joseph going to the inn and er Yes, yeah I think we saw that. he said erm of course er when they got there he said it was full up and there was nowhere to go he says, she says well it always is full at Christmas isn't it . Oh you have to laugh don't you, at some of them . Do you reckon there is anything on that damn cloud up there? No. I, I look at these science things where, you know, they're sending these things, America's sending them, it's been going for two year thousands of miles an hour, you know, probably a minute er and the as the man came over who went to the moon, the top man, to lecture and he was asked innumerable questions and one was do you think there's anything up there? He says well, I don't think keep waving your hands about at the window the pigeons will be conspicuous by their absence. Well perhaps it'll be a good thing in some ways, we're getting too many. You'll have no seed left before you're able to get to the shops to buy more. You know what Glen said on the moon. Oh well. They asked him what he missed the most, he said the birds. Well we're not likely to miss those are we? We get too many. Well you'll miss them if they go away. I shouldn't miss the pigeons all that much, I don't mind the blackbird and the thrush and the robin but and a few starlings but I don't like many pigeons about the garden. They're too dirty. They're not. Yes they are. Are you very bread hungry, toast hungry? Oh no I'm not hungry at all Well you should be. Well you didn't have much after your dinner yesterday did you? I don't know why you always have so many procedures remain in does it? Don't be silly. We're not going to go out at all then today? Not in this fog. And I think it's freezing, the pantry was like an ice box. I know there's no frost on the cars but it must still be cold. What was like an ice box? The pantry. I mean I Well that's because the garage I know I know but er You must have had the window open. I didn't. It's just ever so cold. Quite cold is the phrase. What did you say? I said quite cold is the phrase, not ever so cold. Is it? Oh I stand corrected. You'll have to go back to the nursery. You, you'd like to go back to school. At your age. I'd show the kids a thing or two. You might. Apparently Jackie's got What? got one of these Wa Walkmans. Mm? Beverley bought it her. What do they do with it? Well you can plug into the radio on these. Oh I see That's you see the kids with them round their neck Yes, oh they listen to it Listen to the radio, if, if you look at the Yes but you can tape I know but if you're out. Oh aye I see what you You see the kids walking by with them, don't you? Mm. And on the buses you sometimes see it. See them Anyway it was only a small The eggs are not done yet. You want them Well do you want any tapes doing Of ours? No. I shouldn't do it. I should do your photo album. Mm. It's about time that was done. Completed. another box. Well you can get a, get one. Or or no I can make that higher. No I should get another one, be too heavy to carry. I know but ma make one or buy one of those and Mm. and extend it but I, I've not timed the eggs so you'll have to Well does that really matter? Yes it does! I don't like mine too done well. I've never timed an egg in my life. Well, you never cook eggs that's why. Well I have done in in the past. Remember that landlady at Rushden. She said if you're not coming home for if you're not coming home for dinner I'll boil you an egg Two eggs. you want something substantial. If that's what you call, I, I told mother, I said if that's what they call substantial in Northamptonshire they don't live very well. Well we want we've got twenty tapes to run What the hell's it good going with nothing on it? Well it something on it now. It is now! But it wasn't when you when was in the kitchen and I was on my own. Well that's only Who could I talk to? You're er getting obstreperous. Now eat that egg. Yes. Do you want another one? Yes dear. No I'll have that one, this one will be done more. Bring on the dancing girls. That's done a bit more. have bacon Well we don't have it on Sunday because we always have a great big lunch so I never A large lunch. A large lunch . only have a light a light breakfast, you know we do. If you can remember that far. At eighty two you're ready for the off. Mm not yet. We've not got the er we haven't got any burnt offerings er Yes, the other side of the toast. Have you seen any programmes today, what's on? No. Is yours alright? Just right. These are the eggs I had from the butcher. Has got a poultry farm? I don't know. Well we've got to find a new supplier haven't we? Well there's that farm on the way to Oh! I'm doing that all the time. Well it's, it's your hands, you wash them too much. No I don't, I swing across and hit your Well put your glasses on. You tell me. It's not that. Well you tell me that, It's if I knock anything you say you should wear your glasses or tell you anything. I know you do. It's careless, I go over look That means your eyes are not working properly. Yours worked when you married me. Mm. Perhaps they ought not to have done. Hmm not bad eggs are they? No. Birds have gone you see, they have what they want and then go. Well they've eaten all that seed up haven't they? Have you stared that new bag? Well a bit cos the other's in the the garden shed, you know, with the seed and that. had to climb over your Well why put it right at the back? Well I just slung it in, I clear passage i into the garage. It went on the bench and it went on the floor. Put it in one of those cardboard boxes we've got. Plenty of those cartons about. You always like the Is and Ts crossed. What's for lunch anyway? Chicken, I told you. Oh yeah. And the rest of that spring cabbage. It was alright wasn't it? Mm. Did you like it? Mm. Now eat all that marmalade. Finish that bread, you don't eat enough bread. I think I'll get some more Seville oranges while they're in and make another Do they come from Seville? I expect that's where they come from. Ah I know what they say but do they come from Well yes there's only only this time of the year that they're about so I think they must only grow them there that make the best marmalade. This grapefruit and lemon's alright but although our Madge prefers this to Seville, I don't. Your Madge is too fastidious. Isn't she? Was that a ? No, no. no. He ha he has a white coll a big collar round his neck. Also he's very big. Ah yeah well I couldn't quite see. My eyes are getting worse I think. One pigeon's eating the potato I threw out yesterday. Well let them clear th all the bits off first before you put any more out. Isn't it, this marmalade's alright isn't it? Mm. It's what I made the other week. Jackie looked a bit better last night I thought, didn't you? Mm. Mm. Did ? Mm? Yes, she had sherry. Didn't have much, you know. Tom's getting fat though int he? Well ain't we all? Well you're not. You grizzle yours off. But did, did you hear he might be made redundant? Mm? Did you hear what he said? Mm. He said erm cos the Gas Board o offices are moving to Somewhere else, aye. Birmingham or somewhere. They wouldn't go over to Birmingham. What after spending all that money on the house? Well Look at my firm. Razed it Give all those crusts to the birds. razed it to the ground Mm. Bring the tea in Evelyn. Do you want any whisky in it? Or Well j yes or have you had enough? You're not going out. just, just, just a taste. Look the f fog is getting thick. It is on the green and yet the back seems to be clearer. Well the trees are I'm going to try and manage without that er support on my arm today. Take this marmalade knife before it gets Well you should've put it on your plate. Well it's supposed to be on the mat but er you've moved it. You pushed it aside dear, like you push me aside Mm. I told you Cath er and Vince can't come today didn't I? You told me what? Cath and Vince can't come today. Wh why? Cos because Cath's got a cold and she thinks it Oh were were they coming then? Well they often do come Sunday, I wanted her to come for er Penny's birthday present but she said er well it's not wise is it? Well I suppose not. Tom reckons there's er another er It says remember to press record but I see no record on there. Oh it is it's, it's at the top, mm. Record, battery. Yeah. Yeah. That has to be, show, why Yes, show. didn't you think it is working it's No er it were the record Oh. I don't remember seeing it written but you see it's, it's not Yes it is. You see that's the red light. you don't really look at that at along No. There. Well No Tom said there's a s er a stronger for form of flu now been going about, you know, different from erm The original. Oh what's that on your cup? Bottom of your cup. It's marmalade I think. I dropped some You've got marmalade Silly. still in my saucer. Has Vince got it or only Cath? The flu. Vince started it and Cath's got a bit of it, well sh it's not the flu as yet but What about Timothy? Oh I don't know about Tim. He's always got something. Mm. You know I was dreaming about the office Who told you did Cath te tell you? I rang her up last night. I didn't know. I w I was dreaming about the office last night, and I saw Miss Mm. as large as life. And a, and a s Who was she? Your old schoolteacher? No! Mr 's secretary, you know Oh Dorothy who came Oh aye. Well you had so many girl er names. No and I saw her type a letter and sign it as clear as anything. You were reliving the past. Yes. I know but er but the funny thing was Do you ever see me in er No I never see you in my dreams. Oh yes you blank me off then when you go to sleep. Yes I do. No and we'd got three young girls, new, new girls and I saw those and I must have been thinking about Mandy and the car because they said something about oh when we leave we're all going on a picnic to and I think it was Kettering or quite some time aw some Mm. way away What did they do when they got there? Oh it didn't go into that, silly. No but it must've been talking about youngsters having cars Mm. and er I mean and these were three young girls, they only just started to work and yet they'd got a car and as soon as they finished they they were going on this picnic I used to think dreams, you sort of stored in your mind, you know, cos as a lad I did er sle once or twice sleep walk and er at lunchtimes they used to delegate er when you was on your last half year they used to delegate one every day to pick I know you've I don't want to hear all that. to pick up the lunch papers and er anyway one, one night I was wa walking across and er my dad called out what you doing? What you doing? And er I said I'm going to pick the papers up, he said get back into bed and I, I remember mother saying oh we shouldn't wake them when they're Asleep. and the, the second sleep walk was I came down the stairs er they were having supper, of course when I was very young we went to bed early er I come down the stairs and opened the door and then I woke up. Ooh. Do you want another cup? And they're the only two, yes please, they're the only two times that I recall sleep walking. What it is, er they say it's an o o overactive brain don't they? Mm that's quite likely with you. Do you think it's what, when you use what you've stored in there, bringing it back? No Sometimes you dream things that you've never sort of c Have you finished with engines? No I've brought, bringing other cups of tea in. Gonna say it's No it's not. Now you you'll tip that over when it, with it not being level. marmalade. Well It's sticky. get another mat. Well I've not brought another spoon, give me yours. Ah look what you've done! All over the cloth Er that tea! You've spilt it. Well you it's rushing me aren't you? No I'm not. Well you could've washed the marmalade out while you were s out the saucer. Well why had you put marmalade in the saucer? It dropped in off the spoon. Oh well you should have had your plate near shouldn't you? You always want the Ts crossing and the Is done. You keep saying that, now shut up. Yes dear. How's your shoulder? Oh it's about the same. I see you rubbing it. I thought you said it was improving? Off and on. Well it's, more or less is. About the same as yesterday I meant. Oh well it looks like being frosty Friday doesn't it? Well you, you can clear the table and put a few more photos in the album. How many more cards have you got to fill? Too many I'm afraid, those thin ones. Well you bought them. Yes there's a blind spot in everyone's mind int there? And I'd thought they'd be, suffice. Well they're alright, I mean They're too flimsy. you can't have everything, they're not too flimsy. They do, they flex too much. waft about. No they don't, when they're, when when they're on top of all the others and you just turn them over more gently. And we'll go to that new place, Office World. Because we've got to get out one day next week, I'm getting low on things. Well I shall want something because there are all those French photographs I've got. No, no well I've got to do some food shopping next week, I must, and a bag of potatoes. Yeah I expect we'll Well Everywhere's dead, no movement is there now? Mm well it's Sunday morning, people at work have a lie in don't they? Well I never used to, did you? I did in my teens, I used to have breakfast in bed on a Sunday. Yeah you're talking about a dream, because er in my mind I can hear George now in a bar lounge I walked in, he was with two of his mates and we got talking, he said here's my, this is m he used to say Chip then, you know, George did this is my young Chip he said he goes to work in the middle of the night. You see painters couldn't start till nine, till the sun got up you know to Mm they had to go round with a blow lamp to get the frost and the dew in those big houses Yeah. Cos I said to young George, his son, I said he came when I was painting the sills and I says what do you do when it's frosty when you start to work? Oh we just go along with a blow lamp. . Suppose it's one way isn't it? Mm. Here comes the big pigeon, there he is. I don't think they should Look. Oh yeah. He's got a white collar you see and also he's very big Yeah, I can see. very fat o obese. I should think he is fat on what you put out for him. Well Or her. it's got feelings like anything else, he wants to live. Looks as if they've cleared it all up, he's looking all around. There weren't all that many came either. There were, there were about twenty. You exaggerate so. I don't. Yes you do. You sound just like my wife at times. Mm. Pity I'm not. Are you glad you married me? I suppose. Hmm you didn't sound too very enthusiastic. You shouldn't ask the obvious should you? Wonder how you'd've got on with our Bill I might have tamed him. I doubt it. Anyway he didn't appeal to me. Very mean. He was a r a r a rare one for getting little sharp digs in wasn't he? Mm like you sometimes. We went in the Gra Grand just done the lounge at the Grand and when we had our first car and I went round to see mother and I said come on, we'll go up to the, take you up to the Grand and have a drink. And we walk in the lounge and they've got two foot round copper covered tables, they'd covered the original with sheet and the the there was only us two and he was polishing them, you know, getting them ready Mm. Bill says you love d er cleaning those don't you? And he were gonna make something of it, the barman, you know? He always got these nasty little digs in. Are you coming back? Yes. Good. I'm not finished. Have we had seconds? Mm have we had seconds? Well do you want any more toast? No I just wondered that's all. It's about time I washed these, they've got all, you've stuck them all up. Phew . Ooh that'll be the day. Come on, let's clear these things off. Leave that on. You think, you think er you think I'm a good trencherman then, look Mind. eh? Are you going to do your I might as well if you Well let's put this on the if you insist. Well it's, it's a job that's got to be done and you can do it on a miserable day. Hurry up and put it on there I don't want to stand with these forever. I'm looking for the cloth I can't find it. There's one on the ta on That yellow one, where's that yellow one gone? Didn't know we had one. No I didn't, not recently anyway. Here it is look, yellow embroidered one. This one. Tatty old thing. I know but if you're going to get glue on it you might as well get it on this instead of on the lace one. I just washed that, that's a lovely colour. You could have fooled me. Hmm not very often. Now get your cards out and the glue. Keep the glue on the, this. What are you going to do now? Clean the kitchen? In a minute or two. Have you found them? Well I don't know, they're around somewhere. Ooh! Ooh! Ooh! Ooh! Let me move that chest. You'll hurt yourself. There you are. You see you do forget Right these days. we shall want two boxes then shan't we? That's what I said, you'll have to start another Mm. one cos Gonna sort the albums out first, one to two. Put them in numerical order, have you got them all mixed up now? Yeah I have, yeah, but they're all numbered. I know they're numbered but they're not in the right order. Well you want to start with the bottom number on the bottom don't you? Yes. I want No what, what's the last number you've got? You put that down Number one. No the last number Well that's on the bottom that's and then, then it will be, one will come on the top! Yes then when you go on another holiday you've gotta fetch all of them out, shove them under the bottom. You start at one No er listen, you start at one and we get to a hundred and four Ah I see what you mean. and er, if you do it the other way Well if it was in chronological order, you want one on the top. Yes I know but when you come to put a another one on you've gotta lift them all out. I know what you mean . Well start another box then. You do it your way. I always do. I know you do. You never take advice from me. You haven't numbered that one. Haven't I? Where's that one where there's a long one ain't there of er with you er the whole The set? Yeah. one of the whole set. Well you'd got it, is it, erm well there, you'll have to sort through them. Yeah I shall have to. Won't you? Till you you'll be doing, we'll have to find another table. Didn't know we'd got so many, did you? Yes you haven't done it up for years have you? Put this year's on one pile. Yeah, right, what I'm after is that set one. Well do it methodically. Come here, let me go through them. No let's get it er put these in first. Give them to me, I'll sort, find the No you one you want. you er Give it to me. Yes I think those are, well that's the top Take that, cos that's the top one. that'll go on the top. number one, well you get washing done and then you can come in when your hands are clean. My hands are clean, I've just Well done the washing up so they are clean. That's going. Oh mhm. We seem to have er Seems to have That bit. What will you be doing today then? Well as it's foggy I don't think we can go out. No. It's a pity we didn't go yesterday Course we was gonna show Tom and Madge the, that er aerial view of the house. Oh well we've got plenty of time for that. Time for that, mm, besides it, there might be a lot of salt about. Ooh you get obsessed with salt you do. Well it's not that,i it's so they they like to get rid of it for the summer and i if there's a sign of a bit of frost out they all come, shoving it onto the road and rotting everybody's cars. Has it froze the water to last night? No it's s spitting with rain. Is it? Mm. Just like, well more like fog really. Well do you know what, I forgot to take the chicken out of the fridge last night so we can't have dinner so Oh dear. too early. Put it in the stove, that'll thaw it. Don't be silly it is thaw nearly thawed anyway, it won't, I'll do it right away I've just remembered. Well must we have chicken? Yes I haven't got anything else except t tins, and you don't want tins on a Sunday do you? Best bread and dripping. Ooh ooh where's the dripping coming from? The butchers. Yeah I used to like their pork er dripping. I used to like Cocklin's pork dripping N not for breakfast. Anyway what are you going to have? Burnt chicken no I'm talking now chicken fricassee I'm not talking, that's silly. er lightly done kippers on one side. Ooh. Now, boiled or poached or ? Boiled will do. I think er Tom and Jackie were alright last night weren't they? What, do you mean ? Yes, I think so. They didn't seem to object. No. Did you ? We could have a banana souffle Well we, we couldn't, don't be silly. No I said what are you going to do t this morning? Are you going to do some more t put some more snaps in the album? Well it depends on you, if you're not going out it's We ca we can't go out in this weather, this frost. Fog I mean. There's er one of the pigeons I shall have to go and put some seed down. Well you'd better go and feed them then. I think we've got to find another cupboard for these glasses. They're getting broken. Er What do you want? well if you have that bookcase in my room that a bit wobbly. No that tips over it's a bit wobbly. Well I could screw it to the wall. No. It is a glass cupboard. No I'm not going to keep, I don't want to keep them up there. Er No I shall have to find room for some of the pots and leave the glasses in. What about the chest, empty the chest? No you can't have gl wine glasses in there. Well I should have thought so. No you can't. Oh. No I think I'll move some of the other silver bits in. I didn't know we'd got that in there, did you? Oh that's been broken before has it? See that little thing. I think that's a bit better. I'll er Yes I should use them, they cost nearly three pounds and if put some on the other side it will stabilize it. Have you found your pens? Yeah right at the back. Well you couldn't find them the other day, you said they weren't there didn't you? . Hey hundred and eleven Hundred and eleven? That's only for the index if you want to get one out Yeah are you keeping the index up to date now? Er well I mean on there, how far have you got? I've got all that. Got all the Oh. What are we up to date, a hundred and four? Yeah we've got another seven La Rochelle. seven to do. La Rochelle. How do you mean another seven? Well you're on hundred and eleven now Oh I see what you mean, er only to write on there so you, yes, yes. But I should do each one as you come to it. Save all this faffing about. You would but I don't. No. You never do. And another thing you see they're not as long as look, look No. they've cut them short. Mm well you gave them the size and you checked the size. I know but look yes but they've cut them short. You checked it when you got them back. I'm sure you did. Well sooner be a bit be shorter Shorter than too long Well I could can't I? No it isn't, it's alright. You use it. Those Well look all over the look. Yeah. Oh you've used it have you? Oh yeah, Oh you've got the other side to do. Yeah. Ah but now your numbers'll all be wrong. But it's er well it don't matter, put a number on and look for it. Oh. Hundred and seven. Well use that then. Hundred and eight, hundred and nine. Well that's alright, we're hundred and ten Well you've just laid hundred and ten on the back of that. On this? Yes, you have a look. I just saw you write it down. Well that's You can alter that to a hundred and eleven can't you? Yeah. Make that a hundred and ten. Hundred and eight, hundred and nine hundred and ten. Hundred and ten. Do that sheet and get it out of the way. Do you want this light on? Eh? No not particularly. Well, I've got the Christmas pudding. Shall I pull these curtains back now? Half back? Yeah. Ooh the fog's nearly cleared. What are you going to put on that side? Don't know I'm just going to sort them out when I get this card This is lovely board this one is. I thought, I thought you said you hadn't used, we were going to take that as a specimen. Well we still can can't we? What with the pictures on? Why not? Put your pen on there so it doesn't mark the cloth. Rest it on there. Well that doesn't matter, the ink won't come out of it. Well don't stand on anything I'm not standing on anything I'm, I'm just going back in the kitch Are you ready for coffee yet? Yes, or something stronger. Well , well do,wha say what you want. Er show me the menu. Don't be silly ! No, you can have er can ha , it's a bit early to have a drink. Well, coffee then. You have coffee with a drop of er With a dash. whisky in. Coffee and a dash. Is that all? Yeah. From now on it's . Don't be silly! Ooh! Stop it! Don't throw these er No. They're all i in the throwing, I throw nothing away. brochures away from the hotels. I want these. I don't throw anything away. Cos we might go back there. Which one's that? That er Lakeside.. Yes but i , well it's an easy ride and I'd go there . Oh! Int it? That's enough to video this Abu Dhabi. Which do you like? Abu Dhabi? This one? Yes, well that nice We, well which one with the lovely lounge! Well they're both nice lounges but overlooking the sea. Oh er the second one Meridian The second one we went to? Yes, the second one. Well, if that's your choice, it's your choice. Who am I to de descent against it. Don't know where all these bits of tinsel keep coming from! From the Christmas decorations. From under the Welsh dresser I suppose. I know that! I'll get your coffee then. Well I thought you'd never ask! I did ask! Don't be silly! I've got make a fresh lot. You didn't remind me about the steamer with the puddings did you? No. Well you should have! Well yo , I wanted to make you a timer. Yo , we got plenty of clocks we can plug in from. What have you torn this one of me up for? Well it were u under there with more of the rubble, so I brought it out to flatten it if I could but No! You should throw that away. No, it's a garden int it? The beginning of the garden. Yes well Pity that! Shows you how I made it you see, but now Mm mm. I've got no record of it. Well you shouldn't have scre , you should have Unless we got the, probably got another film somewhere. Well We you, you should we have er we never throw any away. I'll have look one day. You should have made this years and years ago shouldn't you? Well we had a lot to do didn't we? What with the stage and don't you remember I used to come home Sa Saturday afternoon then start digging? Do you remember? Mm. You never found those labels I made out did you? No. Well you, I went on the stage Saturday morning, then I used to come home to have my lunch and start digging. That's damn funny where they went to! Can you get them? Well I looked through all that stuff when I cleared up this morning. Yeah, yeah I'm going to make some new ones, I've got plenty. You'll have to go easy on the whisky in case you get Yeah. the flu. It's nearly half gone! That wasn't fitted. I wo , could have been off there to get it in and I've cut it somewhere. But if I pull it off it'll tear. No, I shouldn't. Well cut it off there. You cut a bit off the top or the bottom. Yeah. Yeah. Well it won't look the same, but still Yes it will! Ha! Here, drink this coffee. Drink that coffee. Ooh! That's not very solid. If I put it on there you'll probably spill it all over the photographs. You have made a mess of this drawer! Well clear it out then and throw away what you don't want, that's Well , it's you that's er That's what I do. I cleared it out the other day! That's what I often do, is clear mine out and Ooh! Ooh! throw stuff away I don't want. Ooh! You never throw anything away! Cut th , you can cut the bottom off that. Yes. I That. know but the then you you run out like that. You just run out to the corners. Yes! Well you can cut the bottom off that. Cut th soon see can't we? I'll bring you the scissors cos you haven't got them. No, I got my knife here. Oh! Well drink that coffee, it'll soon get cold. What are you looking for now? There's two boxes of paints under there. I bet they'll have gone home now don't you? No! Churchill had some for over forty years! Well we had some didn't we a long while and Yes , but we haven't had them forty years. Put a bit of the turps in and they're alright. Well better go and baste the chicken I think. No, drink this coffee Arthur! It's no use, gotta Yeah. the whisky bottle sa slipped and there's a lot in! I better get another bottle of that er Gloy hadn't I? You know, it was only fifty five at the little shop and in Smiths it was about seventy five. Yeah, I know. So whether they were selling off, I don't know. I'm making another lot of labels. I don't know how things ke , get lost in this house. I wonder that times without Well it you, put things away and then forget where you put them! Don't you? One thing or another. I remember it's you, cleared my things away and I don't know where you've put them. Yeah cos with the I can't even find the blank labels! I've got about four sheets that Audrey gave me! So what have you done with those? In that Welsh dresser. Oh they were superfluous to requirements I suppose. No they weren't! You, you moved them somewhere! When you looking for things and now I don't know where they are! You didn't look in the right place did you? If I don't know where the right place is, I can't very well can I? You do faff about! I should have done about four pages by now! Yes I know you would. Well I I should hate to have been your girls in the office! Mm. Well you can't afford to mess about like you do! Well I know that if I was at work. Ooh! Ooh ! I worked to my own initiative and it Yes I know ! it always succeeded! Well you didn't like anybody working with you did you? I'll re-phrase that. Didn't like anybody telling me what to do. Yeah ! Which you're very good at! Do you Well like being bossy-boots? Well somebody's got to be in this house! Now drink your coffee! I'm not, shan't make any more! Arthur, look the whisky tipped up so there's a lo , it's nearly cold! And you've got to go easy on it now. Because if you get flu you'll want some. Alright? There you are then, that's your shelf. Yeah. That's alright. Yeah, that's good! But I mean cos that was a more or less wasn't it? Well, it was only a five minute bus ride. A bus ride away. Mm. One more page done. That's Two, two sides done. Golly! We still got a big pile to stick in haven't Well we? well we should put a lot in a box that Stop now Where's my There's your coffee. Now don't go and spill it all over the photos! Anything on is there? Mm? Anything Want a mince pie with it? Yes please. Any films Well, what do you se , I don't know. to watch? But I'll go and check. Do you want a mince pie or will it spoil your dinner? Well spoil my dinner but Do you want one? No. no. Biscuit? Arthur. Yeah? Can you come and turn the pepper mill, I can't, it with this arm I can't turn it. About six times. What, on there? Put the year. What was it? Nineteen ninety. Was it? Er wasn't last year. Yes, nineteen ninety. That's the page number! Don't alter the Nineteen fifty. Well you want your page number now you've altered your See how smart that's on! You silly de I I don't scratch out like you do with the I know! But that was the page number! Well, I can still put it number ten weren't it? No it wasn't! Oh, we'll leave that till we count them out. Loo , look the other side that'll tell you! Not necessarily so. Oh yes it will! Hundred and ten. So it was one Page a hundred and that ten! Right. Give me sa , another colour and differentiate it. You could put, you could P, page a hundred and ten or sheet number hundred and ten. I gave you that thing to put your pens on! Yes, but I didn't want to wash it. No, that's alright. See, see what I mean about the board, it you know with the Oh yes! That's better. I know it's thicker than the the pages love, but it's That looks a lot better now doesn't it? alright. That'll be alright. What were we on er just wondering how yo do the what's her name? Then getting one of those ones. No, don't say much with that. Well you see Mm? Are you going to do another one before lunch? Well, I'll clear Perhaps only it up if you like. No! I don't want you to clear up yet. Dinner's nowhere Just see what we got. near on, ready! But I'll surely use some better card than this. Well you'll have to use it Arthur! Well you spent three pounds why Well not keep it! that clears it up actually. Your grandchildren You put your, some the other side and that will, that will make it better. Put the rest of your spel , er your stage set the other side. Or I might get some card and stick to it. To the back and, and then paint on that. Well anyway, shall have to go and put that up. Make that the blue ones. What number's that? Er, one hundred and eleven. Aren't you going to do the back there. No, cos I might put another piece, another Oh! on Well u , only use one side of those then. That looks very . Get a bit of thicker board and er, stick it paste it like you would the walls. Well, stick some on and don't number them then. Yeah. See it's still thin when you got two of those. Probably. Well is, put put some more on those and er I've just told you, I gotta wait till I get a bit of thicker board! That's the er Well you're always buying things! You never drank this coffee! You're always buying things and then wanting Oh! to buy something better! You've What? no idea of The thing is, we ordered it went back in the afternoon and it was cut and put on the side, I had to have it didn't I? If they'd have shown me a bit to , when we first went I wouldn't have ordered it. That's where they fobbed us. Now drink this coffee! And we, I think we did take some with us didn't we? Or just measurement? No, you took the measurement. I wanted Well you to take some with you, but you Well I thought I thought as we're going to look at it. But you see, when it was all there cut what could I do about it? Couldn't say, ooh I'm not having it now could you? No. order Well I know but didn't you go and buy some from that other shop? It was another shop I went to. Where you bought your canvas? Didn't you buy a sheet there? You said would cut into two, where's that? No I didn't. You did! We saw that card, when, when I bought you that canvas But that's, that's all the all what we got is in there. Yeah, well you look in there! Look in Vi's room! Don't you remember? You said it might make two sheets. Well I remember buying it. I definitely remember buying some. This, this is er, inch and half too short or else this would have done the No, well you'll have to leave it till we get some more then Well if you're not going to use that. Well we'll keep it here . Is it still running? I , I've just started it again. I see. Oh yeah. Erm Well what time do you want me to finish? Well the dinner won't be ready till er another hour and half. There's biggie on the roundabout. Mm. Kids having Now do don't you remember don't you see the kids having a look when it, you know, you watch. Measure it, get the right size and I'll put in my handbag. No, we'll go together then. I know, but I'll put in my handbag, then we're in town I've got it and you won't Mm. we shall have it shan't we? So measure and give it to me so, so we've got it. Okay? I know we looked at some thicker board in there didn't we? Dominoes. Mhm. I thought we bought one to try. Well you said you wo ordered one for another place. I know, but we know they've got it don't we? Yeah. I think it came out a bit more expensive that order, still if it's what you want you've got to have it haven't you? Well jus er you see already cut it, therefore it had gone. If he'd showed us some we wouldn't have even had it cut. No. Well, that that that shop had got so got some thicker board, I remember, and you said the size we'd got would cut about two. Mm. Perhaps you didn't buy one, perhaps we just looked at it. Just looked at it, cos we got that this time. Well, to check the size. Well,meas , measure it and put it down so Mm. Okay? Them all . Oh alright. Well I was just going to switch that off. Well, you could have asked me couldn't you? Thought he'd gone. You don't want this milk thing here? Oh no. I could keep his ad , his telephone number in case we want to order Er,? if I miss him Oh! in case I miss him, and I want to order cream any time. Yeah, throw, throw away the things you don't want. I'll keep it in this tin in this draw. Are you listening? Yeah. In case I forget where I've put it. But I don't suppose you will remember! Here's that thing, here's your pu stamps. There's my sta labels! Told you I'd seen them. all among your rubbish! Told you I'd seen them. I just, I've only just this minute written another Well you lot. you won't do it again will you? Still , I'm going to make some more of the marmalade. Shouldn't be among my paintings then! You put it there! I told you I'd left them handy. Yeah. Too handy! Well, look you could put these pens in the they'd go in better! Would they go in better in another little That's alright they'll just lay in the top. well they don't go in. Well that'll do for a minute so I can use it. I mean, it's overflowing. . Ah! What? Do you want that bit of wood? I gotta pack in something or, you know, I Oh! was Well shall I put it in the rubbish? Yeah. Yeah. You know when I brought my board in, I probably had that to prop it up while er Let's get rid of some some rubbish. Give me things you I'll don't want in here. No I've done my, save the The dustbin men won't co co , don't call till Tuesday so you haven't got to put it out today. Can you remember? Yeah. Tomorrow morning. Do you want a Martini or a sherry now? Or wait a bit? I'll wait for a bit, you know. Is that rubbish there? Give it to me. That Tho er no those bits there! Well these are , yeah. Give it to me. Hey! This is twenty eight years ago! Yep. Sixty four. Do you want your room like that? No. Don't like it. Look at that for a stage I was gonna do that on the stage. Yo , we took your curtains off the front room. Oh were you! You got a lot of those in the brass box Mm. upstairs, you better put them altogether. Yeah I will do. Have you sorted all that fire out? Yeah. You could put them in the Yeah, there's rubbish. in the set. Is that rubbish? See I save these bits, but er never gonna use them. Did you get the size? No you didn't. You don't want them now do you? these were for our spot, look! Mm. Oh yeah! That's like mine's, front room. Mm. Oh look! This is it. The old marble fire . That's it. That was with . Well I mean, ours ours was. Go on, give that to me. What's that? What? Slides. Don't want it now do we? Is that the old one? Mm? About time we got rid of some of this! Some of . Now put all this the photographs together! Oh! Do you want a box for them? Oh er , well I'll take them all in the brass box. Put them there, there's room in there. What about his letter? That's gotta go in the Well put that with your snaps then if you're going to Mm. put that in the album. Right there, well I'll put it there. Mm. Leave those there I'll take them up with me. What are these odd ones here? What are they? Ah? Gotta go in there. Well you can put some of those pens in here rather than Well , that lid on there can it be used though? It's not a lid! Oh is that lid? I didn't, I thought it was overflowing. But it's also if you got, if you ain't Well got one on the end it keeps the dirt off. Er that can go on there then can't it? Well did they take the nice empty box? Oh! There's the one I were looking for. Put that on there. Won't you That's er , the one I remember play, remember. They're, they're old negatives, you don't want those do you? No, but you , didn't have all the others up. I mean er Well you never wanted to have anything of mine. Do you want that? They're two empty boxes. That's going in the album. Yes, well put that with the others over there. Er, you know where you're sitting? Mhm. You know you Yes , that er that's the, under the . on the set. Yes, I remember. That's the group. They're are two empty boxes there. They can go in the garage can't they? Er No , I shouldn't put them in the garage they'll get damp there. Oh well I er, I shall leave them there. Well put them in with them. Or take them upstairs till you're ready to use them. Some Do you want that painted? Well that was the idea. You wanted to paint it sometime didn't you? Yeah. That's right. And yo , and that's all on. Well perhaps next week. Till we get the thicker card you could start the painting. After I've finished one I bet there's another and tha , and then there's that. Well that's alright. Didn't want , er, didn't want no more do we? Still we're still way in but That's it that on telly. And there where you were running al , along with we were running along the chimney with burning la , to warm us hands. I've just found that under the stairs. Yeah, I want that in the Yes! with the . Well you'll be looking for it in a bit won't you? I often do. You never, where did you find that in the end? Back of that chair. You do put But surely you do put things in a funny I just found it. place! Do you know I've Yeah but co emptied this cupboard looking for it! I find them eventually. Mm. You got six library books there did you know? Better take them all back then. Well you haven't read them yet have you? Well if you want them out the way then take them back. I don't want them out of the way, I'm just saying how many you've got! They never rung any more about that one they said you No! They must have found it. I reckon Whoever took it out of there I suppose they booked it in for you and somebody said this is reserved and they forgot to take it off your Off of er red Yeah. one. Anyway, we know we pushed it through the you know I'll have to write to them. in through the box don't we? Here comes . It's a light blue car that isn't it? Oh yeah! Yeah. Well puts , puts it on mid-blue. Puts it on the drive now, it's er Mm. so perhaps he feel it. In a way. But he he'll sa It'll be alright. he'll the say the weight knocks our wall down. Ah but then aga , but then again if you don't lean against it he says I reckon he's cracking up! Another thing against it if he'll get three ca , he'll have wo , his on the drive and he'll be able to park two cars on ours. Yes. Yeah. Still, and as they only do it every Good Friday it don't . Erm They've buffed their wheels on again. Well some, well it always is Well they're always keen doing What's on this afternoon? Two, two fifteen King of the Wind. Buffalo Bill's on at quarter past twelve. No, well we saw that didn't we? It wasn't what you thought it was. No. Well, what you going to have whisky and dry ginger or a martini, or sherry? on a plate. Well go and fetch it. Walk Yes. across and get it. If you hadn't have bought those library books we could have carried some home the other day! Well it ain't as good a . I know. It's a bit thirsty. Well you don't know anyway do you? Anyway, let's er Oh he's gone off with her ! Oh, well they're going around now. Thank them for the To show her the car ! thank them for the contributions. Er, now, what are you going to have to drink? Well you, do you think so? No! Sherry, Martini, or whisky? Martini. That's all we've got. The vodka's all gone. Evelyn! Evelyn! Evelyn! I forgot to do the parsnips when I did the potatoes, but I think they'll be Yeah, that's alright then. I've done some now, I think they'll be ready. Oh you done some? What's on? Twelve o'clock . No, we don't want anything till about Here it is! two. Er,two fifty, Spain, Spain! International cuisine . Cuisine! Cu cu cuisine. And then there's a No I don't want Spain. We don't like Spain! Er, Those Were the Days somewhere, I can't pi pick it up now. Usually four thirty Those Were the Days. Oh yes! Sky News. On Sky News. Those Were the Days, four thirty. Oh we'll have that. Oh! Unless you wanna have a look at that,eleven thirty , that's now Holiday Destinations. It's gone now. Plan your holiday for the new year . Well , put it on and I'll It's on now. Yes, well put it Twelve thirty to er Well it's not, it's not twelve er yet! No. Eleven thirty to twelve thirty. Well put it on then! Well yo aren't you interested then? Well I've got to go in the kitchen No. and get this! I shall be back in a minute. You don't have to go in there and get By the time you've er Anyway these What is it on? these plugs have been left on again. Well I don't know! You do it, everything! Is it on Sky or is it You er, you were the last up. on the card? You were last up weren't you? No I wasn't! Is it on Sky or is it Sky. on a card? Is it on the card? Sky. But what number Sky? I think er I think er we've seen that before. Yeah, I thi , yeah. It's old er oh! You didn't show it on that did you? No. You know if you go out front Show it up if people had done all of it with it, but now it doesn't look in with it yet. No. Arthur. Yeah. Dead head the pansies. Dead head them? Yes! Well lo lo look! A lot of the want dead Ah! heading, and if I'll do go out the front I'll do that. just take them off, else the it'll so , they'll stop flowering. We only seem to have one in the erm basket. Don't know whether the others have died, but they a there only seems to be one. Trouble is, down at the dra , they're dry we haven't been watering them for I've been watering them! Yeah? In fact, I'm just going to water But it now! cold weather they've froze the roots. Oh well there's one with lo two lovely flowers on but I can't see any on the, any of the other plants. Is there anything on this afternoon? Four thirty, er, Those Were the Ah! That's on the radio. Oh yes, but Those Were the Days. Sky. Mm. Ah, I mean a film? Nothing particular. Just seeing what's on the oh that er Argentine thing. I told you! I think one's Wednesday and Churchill Thursday. Write it down. You look, I think it's or Monday, something on Monday night. There's something on Monday, Wednesday and Thursday I looked at thought we might see. Well, I thought that Argentine In the evening. thing would come on. Yes it is. I I told you when it was yesterday but you didn't remember! You don't remember! Now I don't! At night, it's at night. No wonder they're expensive! Take about over twelve months to you know, to sort of come to even leaf leaves. Yes, but we've had several frosty weeks ain't we? I know, but the on the kitchen window sill, I take them off at night. Should be alright. Well they are alright. But, the old ones that Tom gave me originally they've not flowered now for about three months yet they're not dead. I've been figuring out S, A and B,wha why you ha , you have to start, you know, then I realise it's but you gotta put it in the way it's ready to er record haven't Mm. you? Is it opposite to the one we've got Mm. there? It's not, it's not on the Oh well that's what I said, it was no use, bothering there's no use bothering to how ours worked you've got to sort of know how this one works. Well it's nothing to do with the working really,ma , it's the fact that they with A facing you the spool is ready to run. Yeah. And then, put it the other way i if there were nothing that side you'd have to put it on B because that's ready to run. Mm. It depends on which side you start you see. Well they say always start on A don't they? Oh! Well I mean it's nothing to do with the I mean you are now mechanism of it, so No. the fact whether, one side is full, the spool you're going to wind on is right for recording. Mm. Ah, and like Well we always do ours on A for a start don't we? Mm. You do don't you? I don't know, I never do ours. Anyway, are you very hungry? Mm. Not hungry at all really, I Well you should be! such a big breakfast. You didn't have a big breakfast today! You only had a boiled egg and flakes. Well, you know what my landlady said if you want something substantial I'll boil you and egg. Oh well ! This was about forty years ago! They we , they were doing three days a week in the town. Times were hard then. Yeah. And pe , people did take in lodgers didn't they? Mm. To make ends meet. Keeps everybody together. That's, that's that's what Kath thought. No! We were having to make ends meet. What have you got to worry about? Well I'm saying what Kath's Yeah. worrying about, not what I'm worrying about! Kath's not worrying about us, she knows we've got plenty. Well Or efficient. Why did she say that? It was a joke! Oh. She had the Like you joke! You joke and yet, you can't take a joke! Yes, but Kath's jokes have a sharp cutting edge No they haven't to them. No they haven't! You My jokes are soft and er Ooh! Ooh! Ooh! Ooh ! They're not! Your prejudiced you are! And I have, I think I made mine a bit strong! I tell you, if I have a drink, when I have a drink, a short in the morning it goes to my head, it's not . There used to be a cafe, a cute;the er you used to go in and have a cup of tea and that and yo , he started selling jam, pots of jam with they had him in court, it was er it had fell off a lorry and he was selling it a bit cheap and er he were telling us about it. I says, what th , he said, he said, well I've I told the judge everybody's got two jobs, he says he said to the judge, you've got two jobs. Course he were right weren't he! Why? How had he got two jobs? Well they wanted to know why as he was just running a cafe, a cute; why he was selling jams. Oh I see. Of course, where did he get the jam from? It fell off the lorry . I thought they'd find them sixty odd . About er, redecorated Mrs house. Put Mm mm. chair rail up and encruster. It wouldn't stick. Saturday afternoon, I ought to have been at home it was three o'clock and I should have been at er, in Leicester then. There I was trying to get the encruster to stick. A and then there were no trains. I got home about nine at night. Things I'll do for people! Oh it was useless! You'll have to start doing a few jobs for me next week. She did some good er She looked after things. you well. I were there about eight years ago. No. How long will that cupboard door take? I've got I've only got one door on that cupboard. That sliding door. Oh, the sliding door! Oh that just wants fitting that's all. I know that! One side's open to the Atmosphere. Well, gotta be easy one hand you get the pots in. No, well I li I like the two on. Yes. I like the two on to cover i things up, the jams one side and the pots the other. I think when we go in town I'll get another lot of seville oranges make another lot. Well I want some jars thou , though before I can. So we've got to go to Maggie's or Kath's and get some. Is Madge and Tom clear of fu , flu? Well Tom said they were nearly. Lot better, but not quite. Lo , mm. Did they go to the Now Kath is doctor? No. Kath Kath did for Vince, she got some anti-biotics for Vince. She had to send for him New Year's Day for Vince! Mm. What a big chap Cos like him? Yeah! Oh he's always at the doctors! I re , Madge reckons he's he's about as hypochondriac as Kath ! Oh! Bigger the bigger Well Kath , Kath encourages him to be like that The bigger they are , the harder they fall don't they? Yeah. Well no, he has got a bad throat an you know, he had a little lump in his throat, I think they thought it was cancer or something or a little growth, but you often get that in the throat. Mhm. Well my only deficiency in a temper. Well, you can say that again! And patience! Some things you can spend hours on, and then others you can't spend two seconds! Like this! It depends whether I'm interested or not . Well, you were interested enough in that weren't you? Originally. And then you get fed up. I reckon you're always peering over my shoulder! No I'm not! You tell me to. You do. You say wait! Check that I'm alright and then when I do or suggest you you get the hump. You don't like me to know more than you. Do you? Never studied the question really. You have ! I'm going to baste the chicken anyway. Do you want this stopping now? No you can leave it on. Well you're going out! I know, but then they that's Not gonna talk to myself! why they give you ten so that you know, you get intervals, between, because the girls have got to sort of tap all the words in Yeah, yeah well er thirty two minutes of hush hush Well , I'm coming back Sing a song anyway. Shall I sing a song? No! You shouldn't do anything. Do you want any, another drink or or Ooh yes! Keep them coming! No , I'm not. Keep coming. Who bought what? The glass house at the ? Did he buy it or did the agents? Well, where is the glass house? Is that it, that one that I put Up the last year! Yeah. Yeah. That, that's over the fence, er, the back, it's in Summerleigh that is. What do you mean summer? What you on about? No , it it's not, it's not their house,i you look It's just shelters. Yes, but tho those glass houses are over the fence the other side in Summerleigh. They're But not on the, out of these No. gardens. That, you see that privet, that's not the end of his garden because it's foreshortened. Well we are The only foreshortened All that lot? further down, yes! No, they're not! They are! Oh! Cos, didn't we say our te , our gardens are long to er to have fields. But when it comes to Oh! the others further down So it's, this is our garden they're shortened. that's shelters there. Yes. Well that's a glass And then the house, if you look Aye, he's got one. I see what It's you mean. it's that er Mm. corner house on that road down there. Mm. Let's have a look again, I've got my glasses on now. Yes, it was taken about July that was, must have been. Because I remember when Tom was on holiday tha that ground was all dry wasn't it? Mm. Well it is now. Silly! Er, the baskets not ready. That er Yes it's go , that's the begonias in the basket. Mm. And they're the begonias on the front patch. Mm. And there's the wheelie bin just inside that. Mm. It must have been, probably had them taken on a Monday then. Mm mm. I'll get it ready to go out at Either go out or go in. Mm. And that that's his er, that's his garage It's his garage. and that little bit is that his Yeah. And tha and that's extension? When we were talking to the builders tha he were putting that in. Yeah. Er da , almost a about to. Yeah. Yeah. Two pipes, yeah. He practically did that. No, but that's their little extension isn't Mm. it? On there. Mm. To the, oh no that's the . Oh I se a lot, oh In the front. the extension must be Yeah, there. there and will become Yeah, that's that bit Oh yes! That's what I told you, yes. Oh yeah, he used to climb on that, to get on the garage to er, shout Yeah. down Yeah. at your Yeah. Yeah. This one's more dry than that Well, the top one never was as good as the bottom one. Well and that's all but Well you never bother with that so much and that and that do you? Oh they've still got building that, look at the rumble, rubble. Yes, they haven't clipped down on the front. I told you They just finished building that even Yeah. must have been, what, July when it was Yeah. And they're all the new slabs in the pavement, the men came and putting new slabs in. Well they went on about our spots then won't they? Yeah! Well it never was last year's, there was no Oh. hosepipe ban at all, we keep saying that so I don't know what people are on about! You know, ee, that's just a new New, new thing like. I like it very much those hou Yeah! I think Jackie and Tom they'd they did. I mean er if er, anybody ever takes this over when I'm gone and you sell it Yeah. er, you co you could sell this with the house. Mm! Of course. Oh yes! At times we don't have it. Mm. Or er, keep it yourself. You better do something about his hook, bend it round else Mm. I'm sure it's going to come off one day. Well er, I'll see to it one day. Ah! I don't mean one day. Oh I better go and see if there's any erm if my Christmas pudding wants er filling up. We're on side B now aren't we? Mm mm. So, it's the twelfth That's side A int it? No! We're on the second side of this. Oh yes, we turned it round. And what time did we start recording? About twelve noon wasn't it? I better put er Well Kath and Frank won't be coming, I told you didn't I? Yeah. What, cos they got er Well, just getting over it. Vince is, and Kath thinks she might be Snuffley. starting it or, she's got a bad cough. So we shan't be able to have anybody else in today to No. be on the tape. Pity about that isn't it? Cos they could have come up and looked at that . Mm. Oh well. Do you want that filling up? Mm. Er Do you want it filling up? Yes, you might The same? as well. Might as well. Do you want lemonade in it? Ju exac Or tonic water? exactly as before. Lemonade or tonic water? Neither more , neither less. No differentiation. Do you want tonic water or lemonade in it? Tonic water. It might do something for me. But you've not had your cod liver oil today! Now come and get it! That'll do even more . Co , no come and have that cod liver oil. Okay! I'll do that. Leave it on. Is it on ? Yeah . Keep it on when we go out It's wasting the battery. No it's not! Are we taking them books back? Only when you're ready or, they're not due back yet. Only I can't get a chance to study in the meantime. Course you can! Drink up! By the way, the cod liver oil's finished. Finished? Just drank the last, er, there might be a shade Mm mm! in. I didn't think you'd had much of it. Mm. That'll take the taste of it off, if you keep drinking that. What book's that? Machine and power tools, how to use them. Is that the one you had out before? Ah? Yeah. Is it? What? No, I had it last week, this Oh! Friday you I, I know you had that one but I thought I've seen wo , a similar one the other week. They're all much alike. Oh it's not the same one? I get that one . Anyway, what what do you want with those now? Leave it for the beneficiaries. At your age. Have you seen all the seagulls? Yeah. I've seen them before. Well they're all circling over the roof. Ah, I don't know what they have to eat. Well it's dove dirt I think. You look! Well tha , the only thing I, when I walk across the green, the only thing I see is dove dirt. It might be Mm! perhaps it's Kitty Cat twice removed! You have a look at them! Look at them! Mm. I can see them through the reflection. Dunno why they're circling round there. If I see one drop th they they circle and if one drops they go down too. They'll be on our lawn next! Lovely machines they got out now! Look, that's a planer. Mm. French . Well they're not for amateurs are they? No, but I mean they do it the easy way the Oh yeah! professionals. They don't do it the hard way. I like the tonic water as good as wi , ah, with the Martini! What do you think? Do you think it's better than lemonade? Well it's nice! Tonic? Very nice! I like it! I can't stand the sweet saccharin in the lemonade! Somebody's thumping! Mm. Can you hear them? Breaking bits of concrete. Dunno. Perhaps they're putting the the fence back in. It blew down in the gale! Sounds a bit like that. You know that wheel on, last made with a band of emery on Mm. around the things look, you see if you're doing a curve he's got electric drill with a round bobbin in , but mine's on a shaft, the bit, for when and also, there's my sander disc. Mm. Supposed to push that up to it and yo , your dead square and clean. Well when you saw it without that after you've sawn it you've gotta Gotta sa square it off and file it and that does it in seconds! So you just put it on your in that steel table I made Mm. push it straight through it to till it's done. You'll have to try to do it. And er Well, I think I'll go and put the potatoes on. I suppose you should you sho , push it with a stick by the saw so you don't get your fingers in. Mm. Right! I'll go and baste the chicken and put the potatoes on I think. I just switch this on. Anyway, button's not down. It is. What made you think it wasn't? I thought I saw it Well it's going round. The Oh! lights on. Well that's alright then. Well mo , not much on the news was there? Not really. Still all these Election. poli electioneering. Get fed up with it! And all of them can only do just carry on, the money's not there, it's not there is it? Custard's a bit hot. Mm. What do you think to my pudding? Very nice! Up to scratch. It's a refreshing change int it,plu plum puddings? Christmas puddings. Well No, plum , I know they used to call it plum pudding! Had it have been yesterday it was plum puddings cos they I know! put plums in. Well they don't now do they? Oh. I gave one to Jackie and not heard whether she's had it or not. No. Well she wouldn't tell you if she had would she, really? Unless you ask. Well, it's only polite to say whether if you Oh yeah. give anybody anything er, to Yeah. eat,i if they liked it or not isn't it? Well probably not, with not, having the flu. Well I'd tell you . Did she have the flu then? Mm? Well, she wasn't well, I don't know whether it was flu or Mm. Don't you remember she spent Boxing Day in bed! Oh yeah! Well Madge did didn't she? And the children didn't come so Madge did. She we , well she looked ill I thought. Mm. Well she works hard doesn't she? Mm. Dashing about. Did Joan get any, er or is she sta erm is she, is she sure to remain in a constant, neither better nor worse? Well, I think some days she's better than others, but on the whole she's not making much progress. I don't think she will. I mean But it's always been in other words Peter's sort of stuck with it isn't he? Landed! I mean, she's always been that way nervous and Mm. right from when she was first married. Well, I was always the nervous type. You're still neurotic in some things! Being a nervous type. Ooh! I wouldn't say nervous type. Just a bit What would you say? Neurotic over certain things. Why wouldn't you say I was a nervous type? Well, not normally. Er , what conclusion has it come from? Well, not in the same way Joan is. But you get het up over silly things! What do I do with the big things? Deal with them as they come up? I don't know ! Deal with it as it comes on. How's Muriel then? What's she Well, she's just coping, just dragging her arms int she? Can't see what she sees in her cousins though can you? All Well they always did! I mean, I can remember when she worked with me, every Christmas they changed one time they came to Leicester Mhm. and the next year they went to Loughborough with their cousins. And so, I suppose, they're keeping it up now. I wouldn't know my cousins fir christian names now! You know Edna! Oh well that's yo Ed and Meg. Ah but that's er, Vi's side isn't it? Well, it's the same Well I mean Lawrence , yes well, it's cousin isn't it? Oh yeah! And I expect all the other's are dead! Your mam was one of the youngest wasn't she? Mm. Well then! The eldest. Oh! It's a rum do life int it? You're born, you suffer, and you die! You suffer? I don't, not notice you suffering much in life! It's a piece of cake for you! Somebody to wait on you! Hand and foot. And by the way, you've got your old trousers on did you know? Oh! Have I? Oh! Yes you have! Have you got rid of the cod liver oil taste yet? Oh that goes immediately. with that. Ooh! Don't know how you could drink it! It's yo , well if you hold your breath you you sort of don't I found out you don't get the fla ,yo fla , you can't taste it, you sort of clench yourself and you don't taste. That's quite easy to perform. Shall I get you another bottle? Might as well. It might do something for me. Try the capsules. No. I can't take many. I'll have some in the then stop. Oh, I could take them. We used to take handful at Powerjets but they said You used to repeat it used to be known as it was a war do , war factory but you cut them open it were nearly all casing. They were er little Well I suppose it was concentrated. Yeah. But ca ,pe , I drink it out the bottle and that's the best. Pour it in a glass and look at it, or a spoon but pour it out the bottle, hold your breath and Bob's your uncle! It's gone down! People talk about they can't take it, that's poppycock! Well I couldn't. Can't even take the capsules. Th , they stick on me half way down. Oh it's drying up. I think it must be turning cold. Do, you feel cold don't you? I did do in the front, er, yes. Yeah , but you got the radiator on and the gas fire! Yo , well you've still the gas fire as well in here! Hadn't you better sit in your chair for ten minutes before clear up the lunch. Well it's still winter isn't it? Got worse if anything. February's always the worst month. You reckon? Oh it is! Everybody always says that. Now sit in that chair Finish? No. Leave it for a minute or two. I'm just taking them out into Leave don't you? No. Leave the pots and everything. Arthur I'm hot in here! I'll wash these green mats. These, the other green mats. So, don't go looking for them because they're in the wash. How do you feel after last night? What, the late night? Yeah. I'm alright. I wonder what possessed you? I've not had my bandage on today. I say, I wonder what possessed you? Oh! I know! That's a bug. It's I never went though did you? No. No, I was dreaming, I told you earlier I Oh! Well it's what you want with your arm int it? Course not. It's still Rest and more rest. No! I've got to use it they say. Oh! Or try to use it, but it's still You won't be able to I still can't you won't be able to keep hurting it though, eh? No. I still can't carry anything heavy in it. But still Will it be always like that then? Oh no! It should go back. Does Marge ever say No, she said she gets arthritis in hers and I expect that's what it is with mine. Cos I got a bit before when More like it's the aftermath of the break. It probably has it. It's the only thing I can say and I think Well it's the I think the silliest my thumb silliest thing to happen isn't it, really? Well it's happening every day! I bet after on Friday Well I re , I noticed you the other er, last time we went anywhere it you look one way and walk another! Well, you have to look what's on the stalls! Yes, and therefore it happens , you tread on something and Bob's your uncle! You should always look where you're treading I was told! Mm. I notice you do. And that was mainly for dog dirt but now it's for other hazards int it? Did you put that clock right after you put Which one? In the hall. You know, you pushed it on a couple of minutes to show somebody. Oh! Never bothered to do it, there's plenty of other clocks to look at. I know, but cos I, I think our bedroom and bathroom clocks are Tell me what this one is compared to Madge's? I could tell you. This is one thirty four. This is one about wo , er one thirty three in the . That clock's right then. Oh what about that then! Yeah. You must have altered it. I know most things obtrusively. Ooh! Which you never give me credit for. Have to do all the scenery Well done! but I never pushed in and stood on the stage, look I've done all this! Well Some would. I've seen them do it! No wonder! Stop! Is it that one? Oh! No birds about at the moment but they've had a good feed of chicken, but Yeah. they've left the bread. Yeah. Can't be that hungry then are they? No. Yes. Just washed up. You've had a nice little Yeah! I went sleep. You went right off! Left me to do all the washing up! Well you can have tomorrow off. Well it's wash day tomorrow. Sky looks full again doesn't it? Mm, no. I think it's turned, going to turn foggy, freezing fog again. You've burnt your I can smell burnt rubber. Your slippers have been against the fire. You've got that paper down there. I can see it! You always say that. You can, better pick it up. No , you're not going to do any more, oh you can't do any more till you get some thicker board can you? Oh well! Put the right cloth on then. What's the time, two? Half past. No! Quarter to three! Oh! Well Turn round! What? You can get through Oh! I tell you those chairs are too low now now we're getting old. Want some high back chairs. I think I'm going to treat myself to one! Oh it's going a bit misty int it? Well that's what I say th fog's coming back. Ooh my eyes are getting really bad Oh if it starts working its do well yes I know but my eyes are getting really bad, have another chocolate. Do you want some more spectacles? No its not that, its just their deteriorating no, you are those there all truffles, no there what Audrey no, you have bought us, between us no they go off no, there really beautiful chocolates any way I want there Marks and Spencers they are yes I, it, it Cath and Frank intended to come they wouldn't now I doubt if they would in this well I wouldn't want them to come in the fog well no there because will be no point would there? did you hear er the news? not all of it a lot of crashes on the M 6 well there always is in't there? yes, but Sunday I mean mm people don't have to go out Sunday normally mm don't, and the kids have been crossing at shop. Trouble is its too fast too close in it? all the time mm I don't see how any one doing sixty can be three or four feet from another's bumper can you? no oh yes I should think he's learnt his lesson putting it on the I reckon somebody bashed the other one well its been on the road yeah its never done that before has he? no , no perhaps somebody didn't like, perhaps he told somebody to stay there as long as he likes mm they showed him he couldn't mm, oh don't let me eat any more of these because there too sickly wouldn't you like a Jamaican rum truffle? I mean he had it brought from somewhere didn't he? mm, yeah, wouldn't you like a Jamaican rum?, here have one of those that's Jamaican rum see if you can taste the rum I suppose there he he didn't like to leave it the way, the way it was done no, well Oh, we can see it from back room now can't we? Mm, if its a good record, yeah, how d'ya like that? could you taste the rum? yeah couldn't eat many of these though could ya? oh no , but there's plenty of lights mm, I'm glad were not out in it aren't you? It looks as if their all coming back, their all coming from the shops where their usually their going. Cos I thought it'd been a nice day we could of nipped down to Sainsbury's well say when you look at that picture its just a bit er unusual in't it? well aerial photo is er, bound to be different he must of come low to took that mustn't he? unless he had a big zoom lens Tom seemed to think he come low last night did he? mm oh I wouldn't know I mean these zoom lenses are pretty powerful aren't they? well there is that wouldn't taken him went off to the ch it was taken about last July the, the leaves would be off wouldn't they? July, and I bet, bet my bottom dollar it was taken when Jackie and Tom were on holiday because of how their bit of front garden is all dried up and that building at the back was completed about that time, mm just before they stopped work the day before the July a fortnight holiday didn't they? yeah they'd got little bits to do, but there was the front hasn't been, all their rubble still on the front still there , but they finished the main building yeah at the end of June so that's when that was taken, you ought to of asked him when you saw him today can tell his white brick work, that were only done last year wasn't it? no been done two or three years mm you ought to of asked him when he sold it to ain't ya? eh, it were that lady come quick and he no he went off quick no he went off quick, but I mean before you, while I was getting the money mm you should of asked him if you I was too busy looking at the picture and the frame yeah I know you were I were weighing up the value of the frame not the picture I like the frame though very much oh I do its like the mountains its some moulding like that well you know I bet the mouldings very dear well you know cos you know that black stuff well, well that was four pounds wasn't it that length? about nine pounds a length for eight feet yeah, summat like that weren't it? yes, well there's a new shop opened near the showers market, erm new thing brick a brac its called, we'll go in there its got, they keep advertising and they've got one in Mayfield Road oh we'll have a look then sometime so when were out so if you don't get it when you've painted some more pictures I if you don't bring wood worm with it no, well the you, they've got mouldings as well as the frames mm, mm you've got to paint some more pictures though haven't you first? we've got a, got a picture of those just, er, with er you know with the flowers on, so be, really wanna is to make them back to the original, see they had nowt frames and I cut it up but yeah, pity you didn't keep the frames yeah, oh well I did for quite a while still I like I'd like them as they are I did but there was in the coal, well they looked a bit heavy on the wall yes they did you want a big room really don't well if you see any in the Antiques Roadshow you'll know what to do yeah see if they are valuable these days well there just cast your look, but I think cos of the frame was a modern looking yeah, cos you changed it for a yeah I don't think he looked at these last too much no, well if they come in handy they, those people don't like it altered in any way do they? mm, well if they come again I shan't let the say were not selling any more bits no, I'm sure the landlord I'll well I don't know we've still got plenty his entitled to the in he? well there not finished yet are they? well that one is and the one in there that one's not its not got the flags on the top well the one in there is well they, they specialize in nick knacks no, in certain things either well as far as that stoat didn't offer them any thing because they, a chap about forty he reached it it was, it was all tough weather scale of six, on, you know, and I said what, how much is that up there?, and he said ten shillings, I said a little bit dear in't it?, cos ten shilling then was ten shilling mm and he says su its a good buy even for that says, it, you know, its a hundred years old, oh well he says it was continental, but er well it perhaps wasn't just what he was looking for no well he knew what he were looking for, something worth when you think no its not I bet they come across it as well what about those painti , that painting before he had the market stall yeah it were rolled up in a wood set er cardboard cylinder and it fetched half a million didn't it? I think it was er I think it were a lot of money some painting of some homes in er a desert at night, it had been missing for er nearly a century I er, the Antique Roadshows on tonight how much was this? mm so we'll have to see best of it is he hadn't taken it out of the roll roll , roll you know the box well he put it in, probably didn't put it, must of taken it out to of looked at it surely it'd look like that might of been looking in the markets and that oh I know for that thing well you've done quite well really haven't ya? yeah collect so many bits Val buyed it didn't she? yeah, oh that teapot and plate she did well to of got them didn't she? and what else did she, that tobacco jar oh no its a pity you bought that didn't you? pity, I wonder what if we'd of had those what they would of offered, but they went for sale I think and they only fetched twenty five no they didn't, they fetched seventy seventy was it? remember you said that thirty five of that would of been ours any way be, yeah yeah but I think a lot of those about they get astronomical they, they also there a dangerously expendable on that corner of mm that shelf wouldn't they? mm, you'd of knocked them down er you you'd of knocked them down wouldn't ya? you would have, or I would have yeah you going to make us a cup of tea? I will if you so desire those chocolates have made me sick, take them out of this hot room what the chocolates? mm, put them in the pantry I thought you were going to put them inside here no I've had too many, I feel sick I've eat er four some well there the sort that you only want about a couple at a time at the most well one , one a day I should of thought. How I don't want any thing in me tea no I put all the things ready what you say? I put all the things ready, but use the tea in the old, empty the old lot out before you fill it up, I put the packet there ready to open. Don't knock your tea over I shan't have you done it? yes you know what's happened in to get in free er this was around there oh they were cos he got a guarantee slip with it do you? yes oh you bound get in free now that's why it was a bit difficult at first to break down are they gonna give it us then, when they've got it? of course they don't silly, they made about twelve pounds or they were, I don't know what they are now I seemed to remember, you know when my school was about mm I seemed to remember he had one and put it at the back of one of his chairs, and I don't remember there's something on the radio and I were commenting on it and then he all of a sudden he played it back, oh, er, it was about then probably oh, oh I know that probably not as good as no there not the same sort they were bigger a few years ago, I wonder he's getting on? probably dead, most of the people we know are dead aren't they? well you know Gillian the couple who lived next door who went to live at Burnley ? mm she kept in touch with them for some time but er, I've not seen her for a year so, I wouldn't know. I feel hot now, do you? No I'm just right shall I put this fire out? yeah, alright I shall get too hot we shall all end up in the same place mind you, not that I'd lite, the fire, not the glow that's what you did one night put the yeah out yeah if er and er left the fire on all night, oh if, if there's any thing after life do you reckon Hitler's managed it? no, doubt it. Well if Bill had come today mm if we'd of asked Bill I don't think he would of liked to of come he would of come, yeah not in the frost or George for that matter, it was I'll ring him up today okay I, I get forecast well that's what I said to you, but we didn't want to er visit again this weekend did we?, with last weekend no having Madge and Tom well Tom's his own, he can come one day if he wishes yes, but I was gonna say er, he wouldn't of come any way in the fog no he doesn't seem bothered about electrics does he? erm tapes and things he doesn't do the electrics tapes and things well I don't know, he's got a, a record player oh that it, well he, that his son Phil taped tapes them for him tape them well tape them for Marg, I don't suppose he's done any since Marg died no mm they bought it for Marg when she was ill and Phil taped you know a lot of his records and some of Marg he'd got and that was it I suppose that's what sort Bill plays now. why he didn't You can fill my tea up he didn't, he didn't seem to me to be er a mus not too much sugar a musical sort of chap, does he you? well I think he likes never give him a, a chance when he's here why's that? too much gabbing that so never stops talking I want it filling up, not washing up what you say? I want the cup filling up, I thought you were washing them up no I was washing the no I want, I want another cup please I think I'd sooner see Angela Rippon, Those Were The Days, don't you?, on Sky Mm what you like , your choice This is a nice cup of tea About time I finished that saw in't there? I thought it was finished well perhaps linked it up and used it but its too cold to go in the garage now it is really. you know that back door key, I seemed to remember picking a key up thinking it was the garage key oh when I went in for the steamer you perhaps took it in there then, for and then I found out it was the back door key mm and, and the garage was unlocked so I didn't bother, I probably put it down when I got the steamer out of the cupboard mm, I'll got and have a look in a minute well you needn't go in the cold, I've got a spare one in the drawer . Was that one of the book's you got out on Friday? mm cos some of them are getting ah, well better take them back after a while then no, you needn't, needn't take those you got out last Friday, its the earlier one's of which will be due next week I'm sure cos they've put up the prices now, its about ten P every day you have them out. The thing is there's millions of books and you don't see all that many people well, don't you remember I had to pay one pound fifty something last Christmas still I suppose you've got to pay the assistant well it comes out of the Poll Tax, we pay enough of that oh yes there's a a no er a hair lip, Mrs I think her name is no the lady Mrs didn't know she'd got one well she did have one it, she's had an operation, but er, I, she manages to go to the post on a Sunday afternoon, she must write to her sister in Australia, which makes a little round trip, a bit of exercise that's what you ought to do more of what? walking keep you fit its a bit you had a hair cut last week if you'd of left, if you hadn't of had it done you could of taken this thing down to with you and recorded that oh no once he starts, its something you'd soon get into some arguments down there wouldn't you? yeah telling a tale I generally enrol yeah, I know you do I know our Mike said you can't beat it, I, he said Cathy's doing look he says Cathy's up there start walked away she does nearly five where's the nail clippers? should be there on the side with the vase no there not and in them no here they are, I know I've seen them somewhere on the window sill you shifted them I haven't shifted them, in't it a mucky day?considering all that frost and cold you've got a lot of families out in the front door there ain't we?have you got any tapes of ours not finished off?, or have we got to start a new one? I thought there was a little bit on one that you hadn't finished mm, might very well have a look start a new one though if, if you mean out of these? no of ours oh you were going to record Palmer Court weren't you? well you said don't do it unless you can do Palmer Court at four, till half past and half past four its erm yeah, well in't it the same as the other one? I don't know, you'll have to see, I mean switch it off and they might play a record you see, might'nt they? well you'll have to see what it is well I can't till I've tried out one we've got well I know what's on there, it won't be the same, its not, it won't be the same songs or items, will it?, they don't repeat their repertoire their, there not different items I mean if we did and it was a repeat you could always wipe it out, put something on top, couldn't you? Have all the birds gone? They went a little while ago, apart from that they never came on this end well yesterday the black bird was there and they ate till late, I think, I think they roost in that er holly bush possible, I suppose it, the waters always there and they've got a wall at the back mm and that I, I think they do and the robin and the, that one starling and the thrush, I think they all roost there cos they seem to be about every time you throw stuff out I just remembered Tom's father worked at er, the electric company mm in London B T H or G E C, I remember he told us that the last time you know because he wasn't called up in the war he was reserved. Ooh can you see the fog now swirling about, look at it ooh you look, its all swirling about mm its getting thick in it? mm nice to see the front clear yeah it is, kept the kids in today seem to hang around here like a magnet don't they? well you never see them across the other side yes you do, you don't always see them, what have you done with your glasses?, oh, I thought you might be sitting on them again have you thought about a holidays? yes, I shouldn't mind going away in a few weeks, if, if mm it looks like being a nice would you like a change from Wales then? I wouldn't mind going on a bus tour again mm, what to France? no, well I wouldn't mind going there, but, I meant for a first holiday, a little holiday I mean you enjoyed that did last April didn't you? yeah, its nice in your own car though in it? I know, but you don't have the hassle though in those buses do you? only hassle if holiday, big holiday is when everybody's ooh I don't know we got to Wales quick enough that Sunday didn't we? oh yeah, yeah so see the thing is if you wanted to go, see, that Sunday half way we did didn't we?, don't you remember we had to cross the road? mm if you put that on a worse bit, but you could and that well you get, get lots, lots of stops don't you? you won't like it very much if you yes they do you have lots of stops yes, but none are appropriate yes they do there are twenty aren't there? no some days they've been about four ah? well it was like till nearly five the other day I expect had enough sitting around wanted to get back to the bit like mews like mews well it can't be very pleasant sit up there no all day, every day, can it? no well get plenty of food any how. Have you given them all those potatoes? Well I crashed them up and its er, it ain't, I made sure those two slices, but they didn't touch them. I think they've gone off potatoes a bit well you've about any way, so any way I've only got enough for about two its not only children's programme, the young chap said to the bird expert which is the best er potatoes or bread?, oh he says potatoes every time mm see bread has salt in it doesn't it?, still potatoes do don't they? expect they do, well you always add some potatoes, salt to the potatoes, but er, I've only got enough for about two days oh so, the weather had better improve, I'll just have to buy some more from the milk man what bread? potatoes I'm talking about oh I'll got across the Co-Op for me paper in the morning and get the potatoes from the shop no problem I know, but there not very good there, about three times as much yeah, well why ain't they any good then? well those people have them in stock for a long time they seem to sell them don't they? I don't know, most people buy them in bags today, those in, those across the mm Co-Op the other week were horrible how many have you got, another day? I've got about enough for about two days, might be three that's alright then I should think the weather will change before then mm, er, got a bit of revert back to the nice I've not heard the forecast today have you? that's no I doubt it, its well I've had, had a little of oh I had to switch it off it was no good, it was all political wasn't it? mm , give it time I mean its talk, talk, Churchill said jaw, jaw, but you can have too much jaw, jaw, can't ya? Did you read that er a bit about him? the documentary that their going to put yeah which will, it'll be interesting you see, listen says you won't like and then well he was a bit of a slave driver I mean every body yes, yeah knew that he was a bit bombastic mm and he didn't do so well in his college days did he? ooh he wasn't very bright yeah or he didn't try, well he didn't have a very happy childhood did he? no in those days well you didn't try when you were at school, you told me yourself no, I didn't bother and next to me I mean a lot of it depends on, or perhaps his par well if his parents didn't really bother about him mm he said his mother didn't and then I don't suppose well my mother were out working and my dad was non existent and then I suppose er in those cases like yours children don't er, unless their sort of erm pushed a bit or the parents show an interest in them oh you know the Meccano things? mm try to that there was a clip on it, but mm he bought me one for me Christmas, he came at,lo you know, loader with er, what's that in the bar, loader with erm I don't when Jesus were born?, any way, this thing clicked on and er, it, I, showed me how to do it and I ain't got the strength, of course the war was on and there was er people were borrowing cups of sugar and er, probably, any way I couldn't clip it, he says oh he said to er mum, oh he says they clip on easily, but I couldn't well your finger isn't the next then we moved from Archlin Lane to Founder Lane, where next Christmas I had Meccano that could screw with screws mm mm I told you about Bill wanting it yeah and then after Christmas dinner I built this windmill and mother and I liked it and he said well its only screwed together, I nearly said well you wanted it any way, see, he wanted it and yet cos I got it, it were, any body could have it any body could do it you mean well that's the same thing in't it? what time is it?, is it time to put that radio on? what that, three, four minutes oh you can put it on if you like well just try it and I'll tell you what, I don't know him er, rather throw suspicion that it won't be the same its the same thing it won't be the same songs, radio two what, what I could do I shall put these on and see what it at, starts and quickly put no, its, its, Palm Court, we want to see Those Were The Days at four thirty mm just try this Palm Court see if its worth recording well its its not on until about two minutes past well I can get it ready now two minutes past, because they have two minutes of news I think they we are Those Were The Days was quite good this week Yes very good, is it working? Yes I think so, didn't you like it today? yes didn't know about that fish, did you? well I've read, I seem to remember something about it I mean you've gotta remember all those years back all those things can you? mind you for yea , when old Charles's said we crawled out the sea yes but it seemed a bit far fetched, if they said that but any then look at it like this if that's been caught now why hasn't that changed well it's the stoppage in evolution well in sixty nine or whatever but, er, you look at it like this then, if we didn't crawl out of the sea and er evolve then did we just appear like a flash of lighting no, no I'm not saying that we did, we did evolve oh but we must evolved somehow why hasn't that fish that they caught recently evolved? yes, well I used to read a lot of story books, travel avidly and I think I forget all about the author and the story, but I remember one portion where they discovered a depression in the middle of a continent where it was in excess of and they'd grown quite a different specie of what men? the human , human's, you know I know it's only a story I know several stages I know that eh?, but er I mean there were several stages before they got to present day man, but yes, but they do know,le let's go back a bit further, but they do know at the beginning of the world most of it is water yes so it's quite feasible oh it is if, if, if it was three quarters water er human's must of been in the water to start with well not human's, but well whatever we comes antecedence of humans, mm I don't know I mean we've still got a barren at the back, somebody kicks you at the back on that barren and er in the skeleton that's exactly like the barren in a monkey's tail mm so at one time the theory is we our, we did have a tail mm yes, but we didn't have a tail in the sea then did you? and then another thing you got fish don't have fin finger nails, well surely millions of years ago they were claws possibly then you've got your two prominent teeth, they could of been the tiger's two teeth mm and then there's another theory with your feet, you know that bit of skin between your toes, they claim that was web at one time well isn't, you don't know much of not know, of course there's a, wears away with lack of use, but when you're in the water you want web feet because there yeah the water I'll go through your fingers mm, mm this, this skin here yeah I know that it's not pronounced in mine , but, some er they say that with where it's gone away, you know, there's all sorts of things that can prove it I mean the obvious thing is we came from somewhere didn't we?, we didn't just drop here with a flash of light and er they've studied plants and other animals and they evolved. Yes, but plants evolved with men's, man's I hope that they, they had had on their own for a million years, the plants did I don't know, probably several hundred million years mm, can't really understand them can you? well, you'd go mad if you tried wouldn't ya?, like that man said the other week, er, you, human's invented god, well they did didn't they? mm, did you take that tape out in the other room? yeah, to cut, cut a in that oh did you know and the other thing do you know where it is because it in't in this yes I left it there to call off oh I see well if I've left it there to call off I'm not gonna put it in the case and shove it away well I know, well you want to label it so you know what's on it just reminding you, you say, oh you'll say you didn't remind me to write it down yes cos you always right, you remind me at the wrong time and the wrong thing no I don't yes you do oh I was gonna say something, you put me off now mm, I'm always putting you off, I put myself off you don't concentrate. well you're alr the, point it's greater the things they find it, that er three quarter of the world were water once yes I know, you said that, you going to have the Antiques Roadshow at and then there's another thing, yeah, if you like, another thing Evelyn, you know when they give these rock,foss fossils out of rocks yes big sand stone rocks, they find things that fish today er had, had got other pediments that million years back, same thing, but not, not, not the same as they are today, you know, well they must of got hold of it to be different from a million years ago mm those shell fish things they're always on about in they get out the rocks five thirty Antiques Roadshow on B B C one, it's in Cleethorpes ten minutes then huh, from Cleethorpes I shouldn't think they'd get much from there, oh they might get some ships might they? yes don't they might get, erm true, then there's another thing about religion I've often wondered, they say you go to heaven don't they? well, so well well, no no, but some sort of place, well when, when you look at these pictures now, the satellites been going twelve months, still going through two or three years well where's heaven then in all that lot? no and how'd, how'd ya get there when you're dead? well you don't, that's just well then, why do they carry it all on? well they don't really so much today, people yes, but you talked, listened to a parson on telly, he's convinced what he's saying true, yet it's only what he's been told in it? mm with all this killing of children and that and burning them alive with flame throwers, what, what if this higher, high of command, why don't he interfere there isn't he did in my case what'd ya mean?, huh well wait in the Cathedral and out and prayed and prayed, when you left me don't be silly didn't really leave you you were just being stubborn weren't you?, still are. Did Ken a member of church he didn't did he? Ken, no, no he always went, not church, chapel you know he did oh did Tom leave? no me dad used to say he was an atheist when he was courting Madge oh they don't, he don't believe in it now I don't think and yet, yet, the children went to chapel mm come but I mean I went to a church school well probably Madge, Madge sort of well obviously they were going to teach me religion weren't they? in a church school, yes. but you know the breaking up day for the summer holidays and Christmas mm the vicar used to come and sit at the back and, you know, they used to do a little turn, you know play in the bands mm end of term wanted that old , is it, the rag and bone people, you know, rubbish, and er I suppose somebody taught him and er he, he played in that and er you know did the little towns and the vic the vicar used to come and sit at the back, a seat under against, under the window and watch, perhaps he thought he'd er get some little co well I expect if it was a church school they had to put in appearance odd times . er, yes . No Madge, Madge must of sent the children to chapel mm I don't think Tom probably approved, but she well actually when they used to come to us on Sunday I used to take them to er, to Belver Fall me and David, Thelma's husband and he's er, his father was a superintendent so, do you want any tea? er, only ice cream if there's any yes, you didn't have any yesterday did ya? not bothered about it really yes, there's plenty of ice cream, do you want it now? no any time later do you want any cake?, sandwich? no it's just I've got some ham after Christ after Christmas pudding and chicken thank you I know, but years ago you always used to have a big tea and supper yes, so now were all digging and sawing and I mean I, I know you're not doing any thing very active, well nobody is this time of year, but still, I've got some nice ham no, still full up from the last still full up almost if I'd ate it you know, about half an hour ago yeah, perhaps about seven, mm, or no? this had a cup of coffee you know and cocoa I've always liked it yeah, yes I mean cocoa or summat like that before the war during the war, didn't you have any supper? not really, no oh you always used to have yeah, they gave you high, what they called a high tea oh their high tea, weren't bothered about high tea, but still, er then, they'd have, they might have a supper because she ain't been a work, their elderly, they perhaps have a good tea,the they, they went to bed at nine and they said if I was reading something, they said, you know turn the gas out when you come up and, there you are well you can see, if one landlady gave me egg for me lunch that I hadn't had, they not, they weren't gonna feed you up at supper time were they? no oh you didn't stay there long did you? no, about three month's, just decided to run then the cafe on the corner to cof coffee cavern, well you, you can drop in have a, like you used to have in yes, like wings and it about five minutes, five or ten minutes before we left off, actually been doing a great, getting a machine in Jack , we dropped in there for a cup of tea and er I goes in two pints, two pints of beer before lunch mind you times were hard, that's why I didn't bother having any thing, I always went home weekends and got stocked up and every thing, every other one we got boarders in mm and it were a little, like mm do you remember it like yeah London weren't it? yeah, well not quite like London, but it was only not a little market country town, village more or less. Cos I washed them, took the things out Took them all out? yes, do you want any more wine? no I'm alright biscuit and cheese? no, nothing you said you wanted some later no I didn't , the ice cream, did have a cake d'ya want a coffee? I had a cake didn't I? I've got a coffee made are you having coffee? mm okay then doing, or did doing, they did for some purpose didn't they? is that hurting again? what we mm the red lights on, should it be? yes, while the switches are down oh that is always on the telly that's er, that's a good programme that oh yeah You've Been Framed isn't it?, it gives you a bit of a laugh wonder what the weather's going to be like er, lets have a look did you get the eight o'clock news? no, oh you can on sky see if that cars gone no, no there's is there another one there? there's er one outside our place, one on the drive and one on the front what on, on our gates? no, not on, they're not blocking our way oh there's two, mm possible, of course that one could be some way for Jackie's yes couldn't it? but there's right up the road there all cars but the Asians got his on the drive hasn't he? yes, but there's two more on, on his front, another one on our front er they're either having a party or erm oh well they're celebrating the collection for his garden ,, oh I've got a bit of a chest, coffee? its that sort of weather do you want coffee? yes please any thing in, else? no, its that sort of weather isn't it? just give me this glass, no I think that was a good programme yeah, made a change didn't it? mm I think some of them would you like something nice?, what can I have? not tonight to eat not tonight there's I mean to eat, what can I have nice? what you did oh I don't know, I've put the coffee on sounded like mm shouting let me know he was there I want to see er, Glenda Jackson later on oh she got sq I like her square face who says she's square face? she is she's not she could be not er not Glenda Jackson, Judy Dench, Geoffrey Palmer she's about the same no, no they're, they're nice, good actress is that on about eight thirty five, so that's er not too bad. Now don't I've got to go and get that coffee else it'll be boiling over what's tape thirty five? what do you mean tape thirty five? you said tape thirty five, Judy Dench that's I said its at eight thirty five. See if its sweet enough, I'm not putting much sugar in and I can't carry both in, I daren't carry any thing in with me left arm yet Its a bit hot Well put it down on the table for a minute then. Will you sort out er what pull overs you want washing tomorrow oh I don't want any done well I don't know, there seems to be about four or five about about, so I'm sure some of them might want washing its not the right day for pull overs any way it is with me spin dryer oh I mean nothing gets dry outside this time of year oh there's not much taste in this coffee is there?, do you think so? well its a bit er yeah the ol what's a name a bit blanche, no that's not it, a bit erm bland is the word you're looking for bland , that's it, bit bland oh that Dutch coffee was too strong, now this seems to weak, or I didn't put enough in I think I'll clean, put that filter stuff in tomorrow mm might make it better that table never come loose again did it? no, no its kept I thought it might when you put the Christmas tree on it oh I er, that's what Peter send cos that's full of soil that erm I mean the only er, look, make look flimsy don't they? mm those old tables in the Antique's Roadshow yes almost worth ten thousand pounds yeah and yet underneath was all mm you didn't see it dried no, sort of rusty nails not mind you its one thing saying screws, but its its worth and getting it, in it? well, I don't know I think some value seem a bit high mm do you want a chocolate biscuit with that? not particularly, not after that cake I've not had any cake tonight its filling in't it? who's is it Madge's? no its mine, oh, oh yes that's, that's Madge's cake yes we eat it, we eat my one there's not much left. What we doing tomorrow? What I always do on a Monday washing washing and ironing and cooking and cleaning and shouting at ooh you get rowed too quickly you do I don't accept er fools gladly I'm not a fool its you who, who gets all up tight yes you did that's what well you get all aerated then, if things are not quite right, you ain't got much patience with some things I set up the and I like how its done no you don't until you come along and upset the apple cart you just dream a lot you get some weird ideas about no I don't I know I'm not very mechanically minded, but huh, you, you know how many I can fathom things out eventually you know that twice two are four, huh mm, you never listen to people and then you think you can just pick it up by deduction instead of just obeying instructions you just say well that should go that way and that should go that way and to me that's immaterial if you just see it going, see it, if its working that's it, know where the tops and bottoms of it all I mean I see that won't that's obviously of won she, she was, no , I don't see why they had her on last night, terrible I mean I couldn't even tell what that er that song, she or tune she was supposed to be singing you know in, erm phew oh, er, oh John's Wood, you know that film where the lad played er, sang didn't he? where who sang?, Al Jolsen with the boy? in that film with Al Jolsen yes er , as boy he had a boy on, it was boy on, on the front of well he was a boy the cinema yes well he lost his voice and he started whistling didn't he with his mm, mm with he, he, I mean he could of beat er, it, couldn't he? well they must of had a profe really good whistling mustn't they but why they brought her on last night I think she was hopeless that's what I mean if they'd had a good whistler he kept instead of her, couldn't he? That man with that ten thousand table, apparently he said he use it nearly every day yeah he, it opened out yeah into a beautiful card table and, with the pockets yeah and er he said he used it every day he said oh er, now I know the value I shall have to tell my bridge pals yeah, but that's what keeps not to put there glasses that's what keeps it why its kept so long then, then he said that then he said I shall have to tell my bridge pals not to mark the yeah because you know in the corners there were wood yeah wood, inlay wood things, you didn't see it, to put the glasses on or cups of coffee, he said I'll have to tell them not to put the glasses or cups on there but er, any thing that's put in the spare room and left, that's when you get wood worm do you remember when you thought you'd got wood worm in our new table and it was where they pinned the er, the, get the lips, the circle. They even gamble, we were talking about and she says oh my wife knows all about that from where we come from, you know, live, live one like Random Street and which I suppose they had to get where they could, she come and looked at it and said oh that's one wear, said they're only four, four holes they were pattern holes weren't they? mm, but there was a bit er, you know where the legs moved? mm when it were made like the sawdust, some of that had got on our and you thought that was them that's what made me you, you get to annoyed over trivial things, so I don't suppose you'll change at your age probably not drink that coffee, its gone cold. when you think of this mind its not in the saucer you'll spill that down you when you think of these er music boxes like George's got and you see on telly mm but when it laying here and you look at this little box there, okay, with the real Doncaster yeah oh yeah I see what you mean see what you mean yeah they all sit round that Sunday afternoon wouldn't think it were well it wasn't in those days that were a good programme on, on Court today wasn't it? yeah, do you wish you'd like it done now no we wouldn't have it on today, we'll have it on tomorrow, see how it sounds I bet it don't work though mm I bet it don't work even when I'm doing the ironing tomorrow morning. Say you're gonna have an early night? mm I don't think, you see, you see what that films out in't it? mm we've watched it oh, er, well it, well that was, but I mean that's not gone back right has it? don't know you think it has, look you see there that's straight mm, you probably bent it back when you fall, with all the pain and you, you ain't noticed it so much. I know, I told him that was the only part that was hurting and he looked at it and said didn't alright say it was any thing to bother about yeah, perhaps isn't, cos look at the pain in your frozen shoulder, its pain and yet its nothing broke is there? no disguise in't I suppose it will come right in the end its taken a long while because look at that lump there mm, yeah look, can you see? mm shall I have a new wedding ring? of course you can if you want one, you'll have to ask about it do ya?trouble though a cartoon ring will do just as well you cheeky thing I've still got the other one, but it won't go on, but if I had erm well maybe they'll expand it no, if, what, where if you haven't got any gold? well cut it through and open it and put a bit in oh no I didn't you've got plenty of old rings I can I haven't got plenty of old gold rings well you've got some rings can cut a bit off and put in no no I think I'll have a new one, that's got very thin any way I've looked at them how much are they? dunno how much was that? what? can you remember my wedding ring? my that's going back in't it? only thirty thirty eight years nearly the man was going for the engagement ring did do er high street no, yes well we had the wedding ring from there, he's closed down now why come out I thought myself I'm trapped did you now? I'm trapped, huh, now I feel I wished I'd never known that mind you I reckon my life would of been well your mother was the wood there wasn't she really? yeah, and when mother died what d'ya think my life would of been? I dunno, can't see you getting on with Bill very much much well they were always against me, well Bill was during the war, what I'd done to them, finished all the decorating, put shelves up, go on the slate to put his aerial up, he wouldn't go up, I had to climb out my bedroom window onto the gutter and its a wonder I didn't kill myself then, put his aerial up and what, did you get a big ladder? no, I climbed out of oh my bedroom window oh you know your bedroom window where mine was yes I know, mm it was a yard at the back, but, I climbed out and stood on the sides that was a silly thing to do and pulled myself over the gutter, it were alright getting up, it were getting back in mm and across the, er two yards the, a man and a woman were sit there watching me, hoping I'd fall I expect. His aerial had come off the chimney mm want any more coffee? when I was going onto the roofing that was Saturday before the Monday, he says we should in case I couldn't do the job mm that were a very good send off weren't it for me? mm mind you there were times when were miles away we said er, we, we your sugar was all at the bottom of your cup then I suppose it was, well I think its er its only eight o'clock yeah, but I get up at five oh you're not going to bed yet well once in a blue moon do we have a late night?, not all that late at that yes, but when we see when we have mm? what do we look at when we have like a most nights last I see that Argentina thing you was, Jackie and Tony came in mm Jackie and Tony came round but I mean, er last night oh I see so I mean in particular its alright if there's a good film worth watching, for that I'd sit up till twelve yes, but you sleep you sleep through those mostly sometimes would you like a cam corder, or whatever they're called? I don't, what for films? like those video things I don't even know what they are here, let alone talk about it what, you did , you saw when we what they hold on the shoulders yes, what erm and they take pictures what, with what's er name's husband was carrying like the old er movie camera with Kodak? yes, similar, er you know next door to you, that girl er wasn't that got that the she'd, the husband had got one Elsie had got, well that's Elsie that was a camera weren't it not a it was a cam corder oh it was moving yes it was a movie picture, yes been showing here, because when she said she was blind, I thought well what's the good, but she said oh well, he, when he runs it through he sort of explains to, but he was using it all the time wasn't he? mm I thought you meant something like this no no there about what's it four or five hundred pounds mm, I'd get two ladies for that no you couldn't get two ladies, any way at your age what do you want a lady for? well I don't know, but could do with it years ago well you should of had one I mean that's why I'm left with the cash, two hundred cash no never thinks she'll thought any thing like that, well you could of bought one couldn't you out of that I know I probably could of had one right from the word go yes, but you're always on about it as if you wished you'd had a well in the early days I only got er, what was, what was your, yours a quarter horse power motor wasn't it? I dunno oh one eighth horse power motor, well it drove that little lad, you know, that I, that, what I use now, but you see to have a big one you wanted a bigger one? wanted er like I've got, half horse mm well you see then I thought the electric running it you know well and, and er you think too much I thought well its cos your drum of it instructor told you eh? years ago can't have bloody I said you think can't bloody think er no he was right that's what I say you thinking about that thing, this isn't just doing it as it said, you ponder what might go wrong no, on, on why should we be doing this way or that way instead of just pushing it in and hope for the best just pushing it in and and if it goes that's it, you, you want to question every thing like we did last night no we didn't you're looking no better, do you feel better?, mm a nice pair of leg is it? yes, I'm not too bad , no sure just nice don't you ladder my stockings, your what's this here, you've had a I know that, that's why its been hurting at night you've caught it on the er er, no I don't mean that the stockings me tights that little no oh there squares you had a oh yeah hole there, or nail oh, no wonder that's been hurting at night its been, that has been blistering some time that, think its have you been walked through the garden near the fire or any thing? mm, might of done when I've gone to the dustbin cos you haven't got any nails around there mm I've caught, I might of caught it when I went to the dustbin yeah once or twice, or the barrel, and that's overflowing, you've not emptied it have you? no, I was too busy ain't I? no every time you go out to feed the birds you should take a bucket out I could of finished that ship in the time we might of had oh no you couldn't you'd not been messing with that all that long poor old Cath, she, she doesn't know where she caught it, I bet she thinks she caught it her mother well you just catch these things , no she didn't got to Madge's when they got the she did she went on talking through the letter box to them not to Cath, no he went in the porch, he'd only go in the porch to Audrey and tell Audrey not to go in because Audrey cut his things easily, the cabinet went no, its just in the air, I mean, if its going around you don't want to catch it, you catch it not going out any where, and the milkman probably, yeah and what your dad had set for, for all this and he'd of liked the horse racing on T V I bet he would, yeah and the cars. and the car to take him around, well though he liked to walk in a way, when he was younger any way. Didn't he lean on the window sills towards the end? Yes he did quite yours well you do that's like your, I've seen your Bill he walks like your dad did mm when he was not still do you reckon he enjoys his life? who your Bill? mm well he probably has his er, he's got a married now his music thing hasn't he?, he likes music he likes to be on his own , ooh that nails sticking in if you trim your nails properly you tell mother when I were fighting for me country, he ain't got a bloody scratch on him now do you hear me washer still going? yes its just changed over and its started off oh I know when I've got a lots of, if I do one lot tonight you'll get it all done is it still raining? mm, I shall er get the other lot in and do that, do that first thing in the morning, get every thing cleared up, and then if you give me your pull overs, I can hand wash those and put them in the spin drier so you'd better sort them out do you think you'd of put some tassels in that pelmet?, you know where the I've got some spare one's no, don't you remember I went into and he gave me a piece of the trimming and I can take the tassels off and stick and push them through that loop, it looks oh bit a bit hard bit of Araldite just on the end of the thread is no you don't I don't mean glue on Araldite will stick any thing did you hear Jackie had to send her new curtains back mm, Tracy said and she had them from May Porteswell. I bet, I bet the plain poor people wanting them for Christmas wouldn't bother to send them, well she kept them for over Christmas. Well it getting difference now here with most things, I mean now, er none of the shop keepers are sa , like they were very helpful in our day weren't they? oh some of them are now oh I expect there is, but not in general well I dunno, they ought to be even more now that fighting, er supposedly fighting for business yes you're not gonna tell me er eighteen year old girl today compares with an eighteen year old girl in your mother's day well, they wouldn't be making curtains, I don't think they could no I mean er they went, they did assist didn't ya in a shop well some do today, er especially if they're on commission, perhaps they bother and try to sell you things you never really want I know that Iron mongers at er, near mo er Chequers Road, you know, where I used to go in and there were down from the top of the steps to the path, just what I wanted well that's a, that was a good little shop isn't it? oh I've been there lately it was, its still er yes you was nobody went, dear old Maisie went to all that trouble she's a very old yeah what they do now if its, if its not within sight they say we haven't got any thing no, well they come all in packets now don't they? you have to buy a packet yeah I suppose five, when you want six so you have to buy two packets mm that's a gimmick isn't it? mm five in a packet yeah of screws and, and odd screws no good, so, mostly is it, so you have to buy two packets still its always handy to have one or two as spares I don't know, you've got a great big tin full of screws and nails and you, you still have to go and buy some well I found the, I found those hook and eyes for your picture yeah, but you want one that's closed up don't ya for that picture I mean what's in the pa picture itself I know but, but you want, you want, really want one with a closed hole, you've got it well they are in the picture, but not on the wall oh is that it? you take a lot of convincing no, but one side, one sides not sometimes cos it was coming up when Tom fetched it down, not closed up oh this one was should be yeah and that was the one oh it only wants pinching yes I know it wants pinching in the eye well, its, its high any, its I know, well and, and that, that's not closed up whilst you wouldn't get it on well that's I know you don't want that closed up well you do well, if, if wanna picture if one's like it the other's like it as long as that's hanging there untouched there's quite, quite safe, I mean weren't worth it perhaps if I were dusting it might well don't you dust any way, you shouldn't dust glass, image that why should you? well you should wipe the outside of the frame didn't you? er, yes, like, you like just flick round it oh, did you find that thing with the anchor on? no I looked for you know that , I'll tell you where it is mm you know that figurine in the bathroom? oh that one that were sit, that the bathing lady I reckon its on there I I see you have a look when you go up I could of swore we'd had one somewhere yes I could of had I'm, I think its that bathing lady in the bathroom mind you it might be a hard thing to give away or sold in it? no I don't think I've sold any of them erm, any way its probably not genuine no I suppose, it could be painted on couldn't it?, they never bothered with these lady did they?, cos its modern in't it, modern made well its all repaired isn't it? oh they wouldn't know that yes they do, experts know whether its been repaired he never picked it up to see, just looked at it well he knew we didn't mean to sell it better do some of the ship tomorrow, where's the, look you had one of the masts out, where is it? there oh I thought you used it to get can't remember lost it can't you buy it I remember you had them all in line three , three foot long pieces on the bench no but you've got them all in island right high you don't well you have to do it, you haven't you want something quick for that didn't ya? mm, I've forgotten and me being a great innovator oh, mm rob Peter to pay Paul as usual yes that's all the time same as my cupboard door in the kitchen will it take you long to repair that? repair what? that cupboard door in the kitchen no that's in the shed no mm? no, its all there very much seeing to it I know it wants seeing to, but, how long is it going to take? I rather like it open actually well I don't huh, huh, huh keeps the dust out I feel tired, I do, tired, that's not performing is it? yes er, that's a blow why oh dear you're leaving it like that then? yes leave it on for, finish it off mm what time is it?, is it eight thirty five yet? twenty past no twenty past I wonder if that washing's done, let's have a look, I have to go out in the shed and get the erm no its not er, its not finished yet that's not is it? said that no you looked at that that's a six in it? you go and have a look at that one in the bathroom any way he looked at that mark, so if it was any thing yeah, probably sell that as well if it was any thing he'd er he'd of said and made an offer for it any way I'd sooner see it wants to get oh I wouldn't sell that you wouldn't get one like that today I wouldn't sell, sell it would ya?, where would you get it?, get one like that? you go and have a look at that one in the bathroom Well didn't, when was that? Mm, mm oh no its straight after You've Been Framed Poirot I seemed to know erm Poirot, that er French man detective, Belgium with a moustache mm mm, yeah I'm sure this picture on last week's well it might of been on Radio Times, but mm but I, I doubt it see if there's any thing on, before we go to bed I'm going to see this eighty thirty five, As Time Goes By oh dear its only half an hour so if its not any good in half an hour, its neither here nor there is it? the look jealously and obsession well, no, that's not it oh your reading the wrong one, that's it Have you seen that one? Mm, at eight fifteen and we've missed half, half of it. Its a pity we can't get any body else, er, to be here what with the flu and, in it? mm? going on I've dittoed you for why mm? I've dittoed you for why, mm is there any thing you fancy?, look at tomorrow's pick tell you what,re rescuing wild, fight against poachers on Wild Life where? gone last night, I didn't see that well you were probably looking at er something else You've Been Framed Defence of the Wild seven o'clock,folks on men and women who dedicate their lives protecting the worlds, the worlds wilderness oh we've seen too many of those main forest ain't we? its always on fighting in Juventous look at that, its still a lot swollen in't it? mm look mm there and there a bit puffy in't it?, mind you it is a bit fatty looking in't it? oh me wrist is, it's there in't it where its all swollen mind you its not been all that long is it? it has , about eight week's, must be er that sounds as if the wash has finished, you fancy any thing? at eight thirty the comedy I don't know what that is er no, I'm going to see that er eighty thirty five mm, oh I'll go bed then while you see you have the radio on if you don't want yeah don't you want to see it? not particularly I like her she's the ugly one in't she? no she's not I have a picture of her somewhere, she's nice him, his, there, there she is oh she's worked two years at the Larkins she's a Nottingham girl , yes its coming on, on er oh pot luck er toy, toy things that, Rolls Royce its a bit daft in't it?, four ninety five er not not the right size. Aye but well it's the right size sort of thing it's, but it's er to double up with the picture you can't do it. So you've just got to draw natural? Well, well not being twice the size. See twice the size, it wants twice say the it's nine inch and you want it twice the size the canvas wants to be eighteen inch doesn't it? Oh it's not that big is it? You see? And er it's either, I think it's an inch and a quarter bigger than that. So you've either gotta have a border and paint something in it or you know? So that's what I'm working out. There'll be east top and bottom superfluous to the er what I'm painting. Well you can put a bit more in can't you? Oh yeah, of course, fill it in. Don't have to be exact. I think it's worth having a chicken for the soup do you? Aye lovely. Bring the dead to life. Yet people have tinned soup don't they? And these youngsters, what do they do, you know these young brides? Packet soup. Course some can cook. A lot of them have these erm deep freeze meals. I never thought a lot to canteen meals. Ours weren't bad. That ti I was at er canteen at erm and I took my plate, I was there thre two or three days and she says you're the only one that's ever brought the plate back. Perhaps they thought you wanted seconds. Rice pudding do you want after that? Mm. Bit late today aren't we? If you did it years ago they used to have a man in the lounge, only in the lounge Oh you always paid a bit e extra and he'd er fetch your glasses and bring another one. Mm. I think those days are gone. And I, I, I di took it back once myself and he says that's my job . Ah! Well there's not much on telly this afternoon is there? No. Nothing you fa there's plenty on but nothing Well that's you like. No I'm going to rest after this meal. Ooh I shall er do Countdown at four thirty. Mm. What are you going to do, go back to your drawing board? Oh probably not. No? Fed up with it? Well no but erm I've got on well, I've got the paper draughted fairly well and Jackie's back. Mm. Did you say somebody called but perhaps they had a key though, I won't say anything to her, they might have had a key. No. A white van came, chap got out, you know, I never sh I di I didn't look to see if he come back. Oh well But he, he, he, he, he'd gone shortly after. Oh. Whether he couldn't get it in I don't know. She has been letting them in hasn't she? Well leaving them a key or giving them the key to get in. And it, now she's got to have the curtains replaced and I wondered if it was him who'd come Mm. and They don't have things on the van now do they? Saying who they are. Not all of them. Still I got all the washing and ironing out of the way thank goodness, it's not bad now is it? No. Er are you going to get the car out to get the wheely- bin out? The morning isn't it? Comes about seven. Yeah I, I shall be up. Well you might not be. You might you might forget . Shouldn't lay there too long. Well it's up to you isn't it? But they were there about seven the other week. I know we're always up by then but you never know, we might s be a bit late But it's always and not get up. It's half it's always it's nearly full this week. I was gonna say it's always half empty. Ah no well it's nearly full, and there's that big carton in the shed to put in. It's too big to keep isn't it, that big flat one. That big oblong one, put that in it, get rid of that. Well you do get aeriated though when you're trying to do a new job don't you? I don't suffer fools gladly I'm not a fool, it's you who's the fool . The simplest little thing. Do you want any more soup on there? Yes but you won't be told, I mean Oh! to me, electric, the plus always goes to plus and the minus to minus, you can't mix them up. Well I know you can't. Do you want any more soup with that erm potato, those veg? There's plenty left, well not plenty but there is some, do you want it? No, the bit that's in the thing, there's plus and minus stamped but on the back there's but you assume, you assume that there's well it's the other way round well of course you do Well you turn it the other way round, everybody knows that. You didn't, you were Yes I did! You wanted to put them upside down. So I, when I proved to you it didn't work you were satisfied. You were going with the picture on the outside, well that's fatal. You wanna go plus and minus don't you?batteries, see if there's anything I don't know where I put them. Was that anything? No that's Yes I know. Do you feel warm? I do, I've just taken my jumper off, haven't you noticed it? It's the soup making you warm, and the wine. Mm can't eat Can't you eat any more ? Well I want Give it to the birds then. I'm not going to have a sweet. I think. I'm gonna have a biscuit and cheese, just a little. Come and have your pudding. What do you think to the rice pud, is it do you want any more milk on there? Yes? Mm? The top's a bit hard, the crust. Oh. That's having dinner a bit later isn't it? Well your jam's soft in the middle isn't it? Have you done all your washing? Yeah. It's all up in the airing cupboard. Oh no I don't sit and think about it like you do with things. Just get on with it. There's nothing like forward planning. Ooh you're the least planner I've ever known. Or organizer should I say, you're the worst organizer I've ever met. Well let's hope you don't meet someone Have you got another bag of seed? Have you found it? No I had a look but erm I knew you hadn't got him one you would argue wouldn't you? Think we'll get it, got it Friday, this Fri No you got one on Friday. Couldn't carry two with not having the car. And you reckoned then you'd already got one nearly full box are in the toilet with a paper bag in there's a, where I used to put them and I've had a fair look but not sort of I don't er I know you haven't got another one, I remember you emptying the first bag. That's weeks back. And I haven't got any stashed away. Well we shall have to get some then if, when it's propitious. You don't want to go this afternoon do you? Not particularly. Anyway you can't go in the car cos you've had some drink. Go first thing in the morning. P pigeons have been dying, not,no the one up on the top. Well you don't want them to come if you've got no seed for them do you? No. Well there's all that stuff up meat and bread, one of them's gone there now look Have they cleared that chicken off the roundabout? I haven't been up there. Didn't you look? Oh I No. thought you went over there. Thought you weren't putting any more cos of the cats. Well if you go and pick the bones up. You know, they were all round it just before, while you were drawing. I'll go up and pick the bones up and it'll be alright. Ooh I'm going to go and have a shower and a change and go in the other room and have a rest. eight hours sleep I should think. Why did I keep you awake last night? No, no. Light. Well I didn't sleep very well again. Do you want a bit of this cheese, it's lovely? No not really a cheese man. I don't mind a bit on a biscuit on occasion but Oh I thought you used to love cheese. I used to like that Canadian red. Well this is. No this is Canadian white. working on the stage musicals then weren't er if you'd not had your tea and you brought something the commissar would eat them. Did you see that Joseph and His Many Colours? It's m m making a big hit again in London. Well it is a good show isn't it? Mm well it m ma er m made a big hit here didn't it? Mm. Well I suppose it's good for children anyway. Well you see they've been brainwashed to that sort of music so they're bound to, bound to like it. I know but it's not all that sort it's erm I mean you enjoyed it and you don't normally like pop do you? Say the children that when that, we saw it now what would they be, fourteen, fifteen? No. They've bound to go for it aren't they at that age. They only like to listen to rubbish. No they don't. Why people spend good money to go and listen to that sort of stuff I'll never know. Not the co Dream Coat, that's alright. No, no You liked it when you went to see it. Yeah but you can't beat it with er can you? With who? ! Er nice er and that one we listened to this morning, the dance. Lovely, you could listen to that three hours at a time. Well some folk music you can can't you, that's what it's for. Well and what do you reckon those are, now all those, would they have pop music? Well times were different weren't they. We lived in a gentler age. Oh some, I have a sort of fee finish that pudding. I have a quiet feeling that this no reading and no a add up and all that stuff co co stems from the music they're always listening to. No it's not, it's the teachers. They walk by with headphones on don't they? I know. No a lot of it's these young teachers. And probably the training colleges. yes but teachers are like them aren't they? They dress like, they dress Well that's what I, that's what I mean. like them. Remember our teachers? Yeah. A dark suit and moustache. Any more? Any more wine? No thanks. And a severe I'm going to have to clear up and go in the other room. a severe expression and it wasn't put on. It was built in. We had screens on wheels in latter years at, last few years at school and er he used to go down to the tea room for a cup of tea half way down the stairs, the teachers' room and perhaps go toilet as well, and er the one at the back was a foot out from the screen and every now and then he'd have a look to see if he was coming and er we, what had had a big case with birds in and the lads who were doing it looked in this, saw the reflection and shh he's coming. So er er after a bit you see he changed them round, he, he guessed somebody were and of course I got the job I'm glad I'm getting rid of all the Christmas remnants. I've only got one round case and about two vol au vents I forgot about that. so Still you said you want it running d ? Yes that's understand what you're Well I'm just getting it on the Well Now have ten minutes with your feet up before you change. Did you know? What? You dozed for about three quarters of an hour. What ? This afternoon just after What were the birds doing? Well they cleared all that chicken now I've picked all the bo with all this with all this you arguing and telling me I'm wrong when I'm right and right when I'm wrong. No I'm not! In fact I felt tired and when I went to change I er Went on the bed. No I felt like going on. Oh if you'd shouted down I'd've g come with you. Oh no you wouldn't. No I didn't but I just changed and came down here and put my feet up here. Yeah we're getting on now so I keep going cold. Somebody said in the paper shop that looking for the papers er I thought, I couldn't see any, I was starting to walk out I said have you finished with the papers, said no there they are in that cabinet Oh they're always changing the position. Yeah, some old girl in there I said you get like that at eighty two, she said you're never eighty two I said I am, she said well you look well on it. I said yes I can rise to the occasion as well. Well that's a silly remark to make. Well I can rise to any occasion Pardon? woodwork, windows, anything. Do you want a chocolate biscuit? No, full up Such as? have to burn it up when you're Feels as if only just gone. Well you know all the chicken bones? Mm I see they cleared it out. They clean oh, oh I've put all the bones in the er dustbin. I see they cleared it all up. And I didn't cut, you know I didn't cut it up, I just left it. About another three weeks we should be out of the real winter shan't we? Should be. Although March can be pretty cold. February. February's usually the worst. February you get wet snow and rain. Mm. Mind you don't burn that ch table. Well you pushed the table nearer the fire. It was, you left the back door open that's what's made it, the room cold. How was your tea? Very nice. tea now. Nothing to watch is there? Well yes Some Mothers Do Have Them about seven thirty. Yeah. I'm going to have Countdown, I'm going to do Countdown. Yeah. Ke keeps your brain active. We've got enough active there. Keeps your brain active. Yeah well use it on there then. By the way is it er It's still recording I think. Might as well use this tape up and Do you think I ought to finish the ship first of all or do the oil painting? Well if you've got to go in the garage, it's too cold to go in there to finish the ship off so you'd better paint in the house hadn't you? Well if I want to turn something I've gotta keep walking in and out and I don't wanna do that. Well then leave that till warmer weather. It's not ready for rigging yet is it? Will you take that to Tom's or not? Who? Your Tom. If we go tomorrow, yes. We might as well use a tape up. Do a pennorth do a pennorth of it can't you? Perhaps Maggie's got some bright ideas of I doubt it. Cath I know who could fill it up, Cath. Cath . Well we've got to go round there if we're out to because erm we've still got Penny's Well it'd show willing if we did get a bit of all on wouldn't it? A few more. I mean if, if they had,ha had nursery rhymes. No don't be silly they just want vocabulary, they don't want things like that, they want to know a person's vocabulary a to cer you know, at a certain age. I think the not doing very well with some sixteen year olds. No! Tim's got that lady friend. I know he w she were on about a room weren't she? No! Why would Tim want to come and live here? I didn't say he would but Cath might want him to. No course she wouldn't! Anyway Tim's paying a lot towards that house. Mm. You know he paid for it to be Well that very much when you live there does it? Well Look what we pay Look what we And then the double glazing cost over a thousand. Mm. Glad we didn't have it then. Well it is about, about a thousand for one bay window so she's had the whole house done so it's probably nearer three. But can you honestly say you've been cold in this house? No. I've been in digs Well where lots of people I've been in digs where you went to bed and you've had to put your top coat on the bed. Mm. There are lots of people let the windows go and it was a case of either having new wood windows Yeah or get glazed. or, or paying the bit extra and have it double glazed. Yes but you can't open your windows in the summer. Well you can with double glazing, some but you can have vents. But while our wood frames are in condition Yeah what sort of problem is it when you, say a kid broke the window like they broke ours, what sort of problem is it as opposed to these? Well you get it done on the insurance, your insurance covers that. I don't mean that I mean it w is it a bigger job or s Well of course it would be. Well then. That, you take that into consideration an'all. If you get it done on the insurance I don't suppose people worry. There's always a debit side. Anyway it's always er they're tougher than ordinary glass anyway, even if footballs do Mm. It's not footballs is it, it was er Well stones or whatever. it was a stone or half a brick. Or even somebody who went berserk with a hammer, that's been known. Oh yeah I know. One thing they seem to be giving the skateboards a rest aren't they? Mm. I mean how wh er how the parents can let them Yes, yes but, but it's not the time come down three abreast I don't know. of year for skateboards so you, that's no criteria is it? No but why, how parents can let Yeah. let them come down three abreast Mm. and say that they've got, have every right to do it. Well Well you wouldn't say that if you got knocked down and broke your thigh would you? Look at your dad, he died in three days. No he didn't. Three weeks. Well three something or other. Then there was your Aunt Nell, she, she broke her Mm? What'd you say? I think it's a silly thing anyway sit o lay on that with your nose er two inches from the pavement Well kids have different games don't they from That's not games it's annoyance, it's just I'll get it. You go and get it. It's annoyance value. No I don't want any more. that's what they do it for. You go and get yourself another cup of tea then. Before it gets cold. Have you got some slippers? Oh yes. Look when they kicked the ball at , they could quite as easily kicked it at tree. Mm aye. Find me a bit of You know if they wan wanted to rebound it. scrap paper while you're out there. Do they hurt? They look a bit tight across No slight they're very soft com I know they're soft for the bedroom, take your cup! I don't want any more, I've just had a chocolate and that's made me sick. They're a bit sickly aren't they those chocolate w Don't you think so? Yeah they're a bit too much a bit too much int they? I like, you know the old fashioned Fry's Cream, well Cadbury's used to make one like it only different coloured creams Mm and they were lovely. Well I think we've only got one box of chocolates left. The rest are chocolate biscuits. Oh. I like Cadbury's creams Well you can't get Cadbury's cream chocolates now so stop harping. Well there isn't anything for them if they hadn't gone. Well it's not damaged the has it? No I, I dead-headed them today, you were going to do it yesterday but you didn't. So when I went to shut that gate after that They themselves now. No they don't, they just die then Well I've seen them on the l lawn so that Well it's where I've Yeah it's like the wind and clipped them off and the wind's blown the flowers from the corner. Wh when I went to shut the gate after that man had left it open I er I went round and dead-headed them all. I can't understand tradesmen, they come hoping for business And leave your gate open . and leave your gate wide open for the dogs to come in and, and tear your Plants. plants up. Hmm. But I mean i it's beyond belief innit? If I wanted somebody to buy what I'd got I'd be scrupulous about that, wouldn't you? Well it's the people they employ, probably, not the people who are who er Do you, do you think want the business. well if it's er if it's kids say, you know, youths do they leave their own father's gate open like They probably haven't got any. I mean really when you look round here most people have taken the gates off haven't they? Yes. Oh w oh w er have to, up the top, you know those two she said why don't you take your gates off like us, I said why should I? I said what do you have gates for if not to close them? No point having a gate is there if you don't close it? Well they do it because they're lazy. They want to put their car, put, they want to drive No straight in with their cars. it's deeper than that, they don't like what they see. If they don't like what they see they spoil it. Watch the children today. And they'll get worse. Is that somebody's alarm ringing? It's a bit wet isn't it? No. No it's a bell. You listen, you go to the front and listen. There's er there's er somebody's alarm ringing across the road. No nothing out there. There is, I, I think it's two doors up No. where they had the burglaries. Could be a gas van. Oh they're all lit up across their car. Yeah they do that now. Put their lights on early. No they keep open till eight. You go to the front door. You go to the front door but it's probably next door but one the alarm went, go to the front door. It's not the fire. Yeah but listen. Can hear it somewhere but, still it don't make a difference does it? Not really. The lights have all gone. Unless there's a van there The birds are all gone. loading stuff on something. Well I've made a start in my painting it's on only roughing it a bit, I've brought a canvas down so don't muck it about. Where have you put it? Just against your chair. I'm gonna lay it on the What in the dining room? I'm gonna lay it on the board Mm. and er see how much I've got to, lay it down then mm Think it's about a inch top and bottom What, too big or too small? I sha well I shall have to put bi bit in the you know? Well you can make the trees a bit longer Well that's what I say, I shall put something behind it. . Ooh it's getting foggy over Mm? the trees are disappearing. Over there Mm don't say near Ava's house look. Oh yes. I think we're gonna have fog and frost to tomorrow again. But we'll have to go out. No, well I've got my fog lamps on. Oh I'm not going in the car in the fog. Well I ain't going out on that Fox again. Well we'll go on the corporation buses. You were alright on the Fox on Friday. I mean when they're full I've noticed when,we they were standing in the gangway. We were the only two on Friday coming back from town. Oh I know,w when we were going we, I stood in the gangway alongside you and I could see, as they were swaying, people were pushing onto other people who were sitting down. Hmm! Well you don't want that do you? Well we'll go on the corporation, wait for a corporation you wouldn't wait for a corporation, I said wait, wait for the big bus. I mean if we go, we're sitting on the outside and invariably they're a bit over into the gangway well if a chap kept pushing against us as the car went round corners it wouldn't be very nice would it? Some might like it, some might object. Well they wouldn't get on again if they objected would they? But I mean it could've been made a bit bigger than that couldn't it, for the seat Well the new ones are a bit bigger. And there's nowhere to put your parcels, like you with There is, the front seats. you with a broken arm. Well there is the fr a front Aye,pu put wheelchairs in there don't they, for the kids? Well not always, if you get yours in first. And then there's there's dog dirt on the wheels and that goes on the, in th then that's Oh don't be so transferred to your shopping. Your shopping's transferred it to the pantry. Oh shut up! You go to the pantry, get on your hands then you take it into the dining room It's not, it's a good game. It's alright for children. It's alright for children. No! Grown ups do it! Yeah, think you It, it keeps your brain a bit active, you learn new words. Martin's always said I've got a too active brain many's the time. Well you've got too thinking a brain now some things. How was our Cath? You didn't put the kettle on did you? No You haven't left the kettle on, that's not whistling, no. that's not what I've done. You have, you've mashed the tea! Didn't you go out and look? No I didn't, I only went in the hall for that paper. Lock the back door. Arthur? Tt have you locked the back door? Eh? Have you locked the back door ? Yes. Oh. You can do a bit more to your drawing while I'm looking at Countdown, do you want to? Yeah, put the table up then. Oh! Ooh dear Well do it on the canvas, after all that was What it was for. what I bought it for. When will you start painting? Oh I do feel weary, I hope I'm not going to have the flu. Well I felt, that's how I felt and you said I told you that. I felt weary this afternoon You know what it is, it's the worry of that. No it isn't! Well it's bound to take I had a bad night last night. It's bound to take it out of you. Countdown was quite good today. Arthur? Oh aye? Er Carole Vorderman, she's not getting a chance to do the figures. I, I think everybody's catching up to her methods like I am. So she got two, two words better than Yeah mm. either the contestants or the er dictionary judges. So she scored on that line. I think we'll look at the news in a few minutes to see what the weather's going to be and then, do you want any ice cream or anything? Or a drink? No I Just get a, are you ready for an ice cream or later? Later? What about holidays? Yes but this time we usually book that April holiday about January. I know but in April you've got to take a chance. I could do with one now I think. Are you coming to look at the news? No. We saw that Jack the Ripper didn't we? Yeah it's been on so many times. Yes it was on Sky last year. So the only thing And it's not as good as the real story. No. So the only thing er we're interested in is in er Some Mothers Do Have Them, seven thirty. Oh er yeah and And the Falklands on Four. and well and there's mink a a about those Ooh I don't want to see that thing. Yes i i ke f er Animals, yes. it follows after it. Is it? We can see the two. Falklands is at nine And this is eight thirty. oh Wildlife on One. Eight thirty. I don't like to see those er mink Well it's life innit? I know but erm You'd like mink if somebody gave it to you. I shouldn't, not these days. I rather think that's a, a repeat, I seem to re remember seeing it because er didn't a lot of them escape and they've Mm. sort of bred all over the country? Over the country. Well I'll perhaps go and have a bath then. Have you had a shave yet? No. You know what Mr said. Yes. And the car, I've put the car out. When you're retired, shave every day. So it looks as though we'll be able to go shopping tomorrow by the weather forecast. Yeah, good-oh. Okay? Take the er picture with us And we'll take the marmalade. Are you going to take that to Madge's and show What? the picture Oh yeah. But remind me I had it for Oh yes . No remind me to get some jars. Have you seen Forg Fergie Yes, I don't think she looks nice like that. She looks thinner though. Oh she's a lot thinner but She's smoking to get thin. I think that's what Cathy used to do cos she used to get tubby, hasn't she? Mm. And then she'd suddenly go thinner and I'm sure it was when she started smoking again. Have you looked in the garage for your slippers? No they, they must be there, I w I know I went in there. Well are you ready for your ice cream now? Went in to look for the seeds so I m I might have changed, just gone , I dunno. Are you ready for ice cream yet? Yes you can do if you want to get rid of it. I don't want to get rid of it! Well you know what I mean Yes. get it over with. Get it over with . Don't think I feel like anything to eat after that late lunch. But I thought you'd read that paper this morning? Not Well where's your glasses? Mm? You ought to wear them you know. Did you s see the end of the news? Er a stronger virus er What for? for flu has been found and they Mm. think it might lead to a, an epidemic, mm. Well,s I thought it was tending that way. No this is a stronger strain apparently and er they're a bit worried. I don't think I've ever had the real flu. I think you did years ago, that time, the only once you had the doctor. Oh bad though wasn't it? Mm I had a fortnight of it didn't I? Yeah. Ma Madge said she had the real flu because she ached all over and really weak. But I've never had it like that, it's, touch wood I never do. I've not seen Les today, have you? No, perhaps,perh I wonder how he What's for breakfast? I dunno, what you want poached egg or egg and bacon? mm, poached egg , no poached egg I'll do and tomato, now drink that because I don't think we shall be able to go out today with the frost and the fog, the, you've got that on your chest and I've got a hurt throat actually its there when I cough well finish this off no I don't want any more finish that, finish that off what, have this your like a mother to me you are I need to be ooh well it, well it'll have to be our voices again on this because things being what they are we can't er, we can't go out to Cath's today with your cold and my bad throat no in the fog and frost so, perhaps they just be content with our voices turn on, mm when she coming then tomorrow? Friday oh well might be a chance to, gone on But it did over the shops and over The trouble is in er just outside and you couldn't see the heat from the town lamps and things well I know it says from the Midlands freezing fog, so were not going out in it so I can mm, pitch black we can have a steam meat pudding today, cos I'll have to leave that on I don't think I'll want much really oh you will after that, that, later When he came home he was messing about on pavement for quite a while, I was, I thought somebody was trying to get in, you know mm I stood and watched for a minute or two well his dustbin wasn't there cos the little lad took it in yesterday mm perhaps he was just admiring his new car mm, possibly unless he was looking around and see if it had been bumped in the night mm he'd not put it on the drive this time didn't he?, perhaps he's going to take his wife to work mm, mm perhaps waiting for all the kids to school first perhaps can't see to do it in the dark mm don't seem a very good driver does he?now, are you going to do any painting this morning? er it's up to you what do you want me to do? no, all I want you to do if you're up to it, is get me cooker hood thing off, so I can clean it, it's not been cleaned since before Christmas what the whole thing or just the top? just the, so we can put the new filter in, only they fret wants cleaning, I can do that, if you'll get up and undo it for me I think I, get up and go the thing go where?, huh I, I had an awful night again, I didn't get to sleep till about one or two, I'm not going to go to bed early again what didn't you have? mm? what er I, I didn't want to get up this morning I don't know, you were up at six, just after. Just that shoulder still hurt? keep rubbing it mm, just I just rub it down and to keep it moving another salt for a week or two in it, the icy roads, bound to put salt down aren't they? no, you get obsessed with that that cow I'll run down the stairs quick enough when the signal comes, salter's away seemed to love throwing it out don't they?. Er what made me smile when they found out that the salt were going through these er motorway bridges and attacking the steel work in the concrete with all sort of powers that they would of known that wouldn't ya? mm damage it must do over the country do you want some marmalade? no, not I've got some more toast in the kitchen, I'll fetch it in Have you put the fire down? mm I was going to say it was a bit light you don't want to get too hot all the girls told me that mm well used to go Isle of Man and that, and Bury's at Lewiston, where it's been dead now two or three year now, ain't they? mm What do you want for a sweet? Nothing particular I've got mince pies ooh bananas and custard those, those bananas are going a bit mm well I like them when they go soft I'll have the paper I think, just read now are you having marmalade, I'm going to fetch it now yeah, but, yeah it's stic sticky it's not sticky and if you get it all over you shows how cold it must of been in the night, the butter won't spread mm well it usually keeps quite soft on, that kitchen table, near the boiler where d'ya want them?, sit up you want that? I don't want marmalade on it, I do have butter. I think this time of the year the mornings seem to get darker I want some sort of phraseology that as the nights get lighter the mornings get dark could be or is it the reverse? no, I don't think so, well I think if I feel like it, after I've done me cooker hood, I might do a bit of baking some cake make a pudding , no I think I'll make some little, I've got some oat meal and you don't like the porridge from it so I'll make some little cakes, oat meal cakes oat meal and treacle crunchies, you like those don't you? mm, did you like it yourself? I didn't have porridge and I it was all greasy well that was the milk I know it was the cream of the milk, well you used to like it, well sort of, some people make it with water, that's why I made it all milk, are you going to try it again with water? and just a drop of milk on top well that's er, er sort of oat meal, porridge, why I use it to make some oat meal crunchies even the birds don't eat it well I've given it to the birds in the past when I've had try nothing else try them an all didn't they eat it? it's to small for one thing in it to pick up? well you can't give the birds much bread today, because I haven't got a white loaf, I'm not going to give 'em this expensive whole meal bread er, doesn't milkie comes by? yes, but it's not his day to bring bread oh, he might have one on I'm not paying that price, he charges about twice as much, it's seventy nine P he has to bring it twice as much in the shops it's about forty five I'll go across in the car, fetch a paper and me loaf if you like no you're not going, look I thought you said you've got it on your chest? I'll put me coat on for a start well you didn't put your coat on the other day when you went for the paper I know and that's where you've got this cold from I was out there in er, and I suddenly thought I'd er go yes, and look what you've done for yourself now well I have er been in the garden, going up the garden well you wouldn't be in the garden would you without a coat or a, wind sheeter on, it's silly. It looks as if my galloping days are over in it? why?well you've got to conserve your strength at your age not throw it away yes yes, you've messed your hair up ain't ya? oh, I've not done it yet this morning I'm gonna have to have some honey for my throat, honey and lemon I think I've got a big wide hoarser on me back m looked in the mirror, it looked as though it was what on your, those moles like? yes , no, on, on the back of me throat oh your throat it's perhaps where you're shouting in the kitchen oh you'll have an easy day then if you're not too good ah, I've just got to do some cooking, bit of cleaning I don't suppose there's a film on is there? I don't know, I've not looked at the programmes, there's Churchill tonight at nine thirty, must look at that part some didn't trust him did they? oh, any body in high position you always have critics and have to be a bit ruthless at times, I expect. Have you wound that clock up?, it looks a bit slow to me compared with the others two and a half, yeah, go quite, yeah tis going it is going, it wants winding up, I can tell yes, it's nearly down do you want another cup of tea? no more, ta you don't put enough tea in, milk in my tea first thing in the morning is that right? when there's time you er one, two no I never say there's too much milk three now, three now I'm going to have another cup. yeah near enough Have you had any whisky in your tea yet? whisky in no I didn't know whether we were going out or not well you've just heard the forecast, if it's freezing fog, were not going out what day did you say it is? it's Wednesday today all day I thought you were going to get on with your painting? maybe see what's on this afternoon, I shan't look up any thing this morning, unless there's a cookery programme on we both did a lemon well you could show them how to go on the both I T V and B B C, both did a lemon pudding yesterday, about the same, I might make one one day, it was easy recipe, new one a western adventure on sky movies, ten o'clock till twelve I'm not very interested in that and in any case I wouldn't be able to look at it, I'll be getting the dinner ten too two Oaklahoma I thought you said Oaklahoma was on yesterday, are you looking at the right page? Tuesday it's Wednesday today you said Tuesday I didn't I said Wednesday you're always getting the wrong programmes perhaps it was the sight permanent ones sometimes you, you turn the page over sky,ye yes, well sky's right at the end of Wednesday's programmes in that one no he's a bit too Chef's programme, ten ten minutes to ten ten to ten what, what is it on the chef's programme?, I've never looked at it, but hot pot and Devonshire squall pigeon oh I don't want pigeon looks as I'll have to clean the brasses this week why? well they're looking a bit dull want me to put the mop on? no, it's too cold for you to go in the garage, don't want to get pneumonia do ya? Blood From The Mummies Tomb no Laurel And Hardy no, I never cared for them put your glasses on instead of squinting Fool and Horses that's a lead on horses in't it Fool and Horses? no it isn't bet the horses are smart oh it's not my type mm Penny's having to wait a long while for her birthday isn't she?, I thought Cath might of come round, but who Cath? well she know's I've got b , Penny's birthday present here oh and as we haven't been able to get round well perhaps she'll get round, I'd better tidy up first then in case no don't mind, it's unlikely what, she won't want to come out in weather like this, oh she, she you know that film where where ten little Indians where they all, and each one gets yes Agatha Christies killed well that, that's a spoof on it, it's not oh it's not the real Agatha Christie but that's a bit dated I think now oh there's one on about quarter past six what's that? Bull Shit phew do what Bull, Bull Shot oh you are horrible a bit shreddie who's in it? er well that's what it means, it's a nice way of putting it oh well well we don't want Bull Shit that, I don't like that language Philip Bruin-Ridges comedy, ploughed in the adventure of radio hero, Bull Dog Drummund , that's why it's called Bull Shot oh, no, not for me The Dancing Pirate, musical set in a Mexican village beset by pirates, five to one, Search For Tomorrow well that's probably five to one in the morning then oh yeah one twenty P M afternoon cinnamon The Dancing Pirate, a musical set in a Mexican village mm, doesn't sound all that good does it? Dick Van Dyke we have a look at him what, what does he do? well that's that er mm he was in Mary Poppins oh in what, he had a programme every week yes Bewitched , Bewitched is the programme he's normally in oh is he? or was in, I don't know and didn't the male er, lead?dunno how you can read that without glasses, I can't I thought it was I thought it was er he was in Mary Poppins and The Falklands again I think you said it was on channel four that will be, in the morning if you look at, look at channel four programme and get your glasses cos if you miss it Monday night you said you could have it two o'clock P M would that be in the morning? no, course it wouldn't, P M's afternoon, you know that yeah sometimes they no, you're looking in the wrong, you look at the pr , if Arabian, Arabian Nights no I don't like Arabian Nights what made me think you see it's right at the top where the morning then well, no, yes well that's only morning, that's morning after midnight well Arabian Nights well you, oh no, well you can I'm going in the kitchen I've just switched this on again which? the microphone, are you going to have any cider vinegar on it? yes I'll have some or, or you going to have some honey and whisky and lemon? which do you think should I well how's your chest?, does it still fell raw? mm not now, now I've had summat to eat and oh, what you going to try some of this or wait for your whisky and lemon? wait for whisky and lemon It's a murky day again. That cooker hood was filthy, must of been all the Christmas shopping cooking I mean I think I'll put the new filter on, I'll have a go any way After all that trauma of fixing it in, you'd better have some whisky and honey hadn't you? Mm eh? yes please Jackie said these cooker hoods are not very good well they're alright, but I mean you can tell they take the grease out of the kitchen, but, they're a bit of a bind aren't they?of all the cleaning and I mean I don't see why the people who make them don't sell the blimming proper filter to filter themselves instead we don't have well we change it, then we used to then the same yet, we've, we've had I mean where you buy the, the thing from you'd think the seldom, the spares as you want them about every four months oh, well they're selling the thing in't they? yeah that's not right is it?, in fact I wrote to them and last year and er give me a Birmingham address, they might, oh could of, when you, hundred quid for something ain't ya? mm, are you going to drink that? well I'll try, gotta finalize it see is it complete now? oh yeah, just a matter of fi , finding out what does what and right I'll get your coffee, no I'll get your honey and whisky I'm waiting for the hot water, mm I'm looking for a nut erm, for this, so you know hold it in position , found one, while I'll looking I found this and it's just the job oh just screw it down the brains, brains job oh dear a mess in the kitchen no oh oh, remind me at half past eleven, flap jacks will be done, don't forget, I've hurt my leg now. After all that trauma I think I deserve this do you? yeah I think so, just about, now put those slippers on Arthur, you've got a cold coming now you drink it while it's hot, that's a good lad oh I've put the pudding on now, so it'll have to steam for about two hours at least two and a half yeah, so it'll give you a bit of time to do your painting now won't it? it looked professional look mm I be, oh you ain't rubbed out, I thought you'd rubbed out what you did yesterday no would of drawn that, I would of checked it with the oh, huh if the was up, it's it's right carry on size, that make it easier? well bound to make it right, I don't know about easier, it'd be right wouldn't it? I don't know mind you with cottage, I've painted big cottage on the stage and, I only looked at it on me bike as I went through Salver mm I mean any body can draw a house in it?, and put some straw on it it's the first thing kids do, draw, when yeah when they're at school windows looking it up I can, I can remember the first drawing, you used to draw a house and you you know what I did at four in the nursery? no two inch long with a yellow crayon, my mate Dick in, er a Zeppelin, there were some cottages and a Zeppelin, and er, we, we coming over some blue and he said er, he said what's the blue and I said the sea, well then, it, it behind land, well I said you have to cross the sea, you know down mm like, you know at that age I knew they had to go across the sea. You don't want any thing to eat with it do ya? You see even then they were interesting in me, my, me drawing, the little kids weren't drawing, and I just, you know, playing with the crayons Arthur what?, what? what was I going to say? forget now you was gonna put that on weren't ya or something? yes I know, I was just going to say can't think have you put it on? yes well do you want any thing to eat with that drink? no nothing particular. What would you like to do today? well I'm still cooking aren't I? yeah tis er, I can see why Joan's not getting mixed up not, no I can see why she don't like to cook all that much it's a dirty job really is it? well makes your kitchen messy doesn't it? oh well not only that you've got to fetch the potatoes, peel them, then cut them in pieces no, I, I mean these flap jacks I'm making mm and she just likes every thing just spick and span, all in the right place. Stop rubbing that eye now wear your glasses I've been grinding the pencil, saw dust well , well that's a silly thing you should if, if you're grinding you should wear your, some specs s'pose even old one's to keep the dust out of your eyes my throat still feels raw, how's your chest then have a whisky then no I don't you don't want a cough thinking about it mm, hurting across your chest, pain gone? pain there, but, since I've got up it don't, don't do it mm perhaps catarrh, phlegm like I've got catarrh, in fact I had to get up in the night and put some there oh I didn't hear you no you were fast asleep in about two why didn't you wake me? I thought I was waking you when I was tossing about you used to wake me in the middle of the night when we were first married I dunno, I you must of been dead to the world, what with working I wish we could start again, don't you? no not really no all this digging and that and sh stage shows and Joe tried I'd better go and turn that gas down Joe tried times to get me over erm, yeah Mrs yeah used to go to, do her drama didn't she? don't forget, remind me at half past eleven those flap jacks yeah should of screwed that, I've just thought oh do what, is it still performing? yes don't want to knock it over well where's your picture? I don't want it yet, I've got to set it up oh I see is that the paper we bought from that shop? yeah , I got the fancy forgetting to get that card yesterday I've got the other side, I thought about it in town, I thought next year I will well if you'd of put it at the top of the basket, I would of seen it yeah and remembered, I mean when we went to the, get the meat, we were near the shop, we'd only just got to go down to there Carts Lane cor I've done the wrong one's surely it's not fitting into that I'll leave you to fathom that out I know you don't like me in the room when your fathomering things out you see, you see you're sneezing again been in that cold garage, I told you, did you have the fire on? er bit low, feels on fire now put those slippers on, that, if you get your feet cold that gives you put those slippers on alright just brought us a free sample of that erm freeze dried instant tea can you do it? well, oh you're supposed to have four cups I'll er I'll use it one day and not tell you and see if you can tell the difference shall I? Those bricks of seemed to be holding them from better place from the springs we couldn't find aren't they? what the you know I used to sort of bellow out bellow out yes, well the, the wind, the wind, the hand will blow the light springs up eventually perhaps I'll put, when I've made some true er, perhaps I would put six inch pieces in instead of any oh it's alright, er I thought this was a nice bottle, but it's a foil bag, look mm that's it, they say in, you know what they've done, they've left the gate wide open again oh did they? I'll have, I'll have to go out and shut it they wonder why you don't want to buy, in the, they must see the flowers there mustn't they? yes another cleaning offer, half price should we have these carpets cleaned? mm?, no they'll be back where they was weren't they? yes you rubbing round and in case under all the furniture we don't tread oh another offer, hand cream, Neutragone, Neutragena don't give you much as a sample, oh highly concentrated two to three applications there's black on the railings look gone, now, see I don't know how you can see with that curtains pulled like that, why's it, shall I pull it back? eh? what's the mat , look I've just trod on two grapes there oh sor that's why I say we want the carpets cleaning It's you know, what you used to like That's it you can spitting your grape pips on the top if I'd er been, I've picked up yeah, they fell out me they probably fell out me hand oh yes that's a good excuse is it alright? what? your paint a graph, is it working? well it's, well I'll fix it or haven't you finished it off yet no, I'm finishing off the bits that are left mm, like every thing else you told me you'd finished it the other day well I have, I'm making adjustments, what I mean, what I'd finished it, I didn't bother to try it cos it didn't work, now I found out why it don't work I have to change the rod, I've got the rod in the wrong place mm so I had to go and put a thread on and put it in, it in another place use your glasses, do you want another drink? oh yeah keep coming no you're not having too much why? well, I don't know whether that man over there is cleaning the windows or whether he's having to look at the double glazing again probably burglars well, he was there yesterday, apparently he's must have a complaint on the double glazing wouldn't be cleaning windows two days would he? wouldn't of thought so, it's near enough dry, now do you want it hot or, or with dry ginger? er dry ginger would be nice oh you can have it hot dry ginger, yes well I'll give you dry ginger this time. Flap jacks don't appear to be cooked and yet they've been in the time they should have, I don't know what's happened, there you are there's your drink don't knock it over no put it that side so where is your oh I'll get it, it's all mucked up in it, gotta clean the shed next thing I thought you always kept it in here oh yeah, but mm? don't get enough heat from there it says leave it for ten minutes so I expect it er hardens now What do you think to the pudding? What? Would you sooner of had a pie? oh no I like pudding, pie it's a bit dry in it? not really, always have more gravy, didn't, I didn't think the meat was as good, you didn't either and I went to another butcher because I thought it you had to break it to bits to eat it no you didn't, shin of beef is like that, but too much shin on it don't be silly, no I thought it looked better at this other bit, this butcher's, it looked leaner, but erm it wasn't perhaps, perhaps I didn't cook it enough yesterday, drink your drink yeah but I've got some left of that beef, so throw it away then I'm not going to throw it away, it's too expensive to throw away, no I'll cook it a bit more and do a do a curry, rice or spaghetti make a meat pie and take it to Cath's why should I take it to Cath's? that was when I burnt my arm come on and put your feet up you've done enough I'm gonna put me feet up for a few minutes, do you want now we've nearly finished? mm? I say I'll put me feet up before we wash up I'll wash up you sit there no you needn't have the birds gone? yes, twenty four pigeons it's too many out there? no no the starlings seem to be pecking away at the top slabs are getting dry so I don't know, er you see that man's still up there, I wonder what he's doing up there at the side has he got a ladder? well he wouldn't, don't take all that long to put guttering up does it?unless he's pointing the bricks up, he was there all day yesterday perhaps the oh I see what you mean any way that's his problem oh I, yeah mm are you going to do any drawing or painting?, are you fed up with it? no, it's I'll go rest and get on with me, you know the board I made? yes behind the drawing pins mm this, this little board there's no room to work here oh that's why you bought the big board yeah I know, but I you know where your drawing pins are? I tried it but the paper was stuck down, stuck down already look there's the drawing pins mm leave them there though out, in this cupboard? mm I should like something nice to finish off with take your skirt of then don't be silly mm, ain't that nice? no I thought it was do you want half this orange? I'll have a bit then if you're not gonna eat it cos the big ones are too big, big aren't they these are how is it that we forbid how is it that were still I've only just put it on oh are they different oranges? no they're Morroc but they're they are but they're a bigger size and thicker skinned, I'd sooner have the smaller ones you don't see blood oranges now do ya? you do sometimes these are the best Morroc's, but, same, the stall I go to doesn't stand on Tuesdays only Wednesdays and Fridays and Saturdays, here are don't get juice all over it I shan't get juice all over every where, it'll be you. Well Made your Barbara's on at two o'clock, are you going to see that? mm, I might as well you've got to be quick though what time now? it's nearly that now, are you going to change mm mm?, you better, they're your old trousers aren't they?, I mean well with Clare and look at all the pigeons again do you want to have a bit more?, nice aren't they?, sit up, sit up these are juicy aren't they?must still be very cold outside, can you see the steam from the boiler? mm where was that fog on freezing roads? I'm glad we've got the cooker hood done, you can see all that black mm can't never that filter to be like that have you? ah, I've put you a three eight, wide eight thick piece of steel lay it on the top that would hold it down in the middle well those hack saw blades do, don't they? mm, just hold it down and I mean I think so that spring didn't work the one we had did it? cos it I think those springs are, are dangerous, they shoot up and down on came flying out when out in't it, when we put it in? mm now we know I mean it won't fly out when it's inside that's what I mean, as you were putting it in it, it shot out didn't it? mm last time. Not much on these potatoes I've not had any today, just had one little bit, do, do you like 'em? one thin strip of metal edge ways on across the centre I'd do it won't it?, that thing would it? well you've got all the size pattern down well your the expert in that across well that, that spring you got was too thick mm too wide, wasn't it?, it was wider than the, the thing itself, so you want, it's got to be cut down width wise you know how according to the thick, the.. bull clip last time, you had a lot of cause didn't ya? ah but on, you know the new diagram, the new packet, the springs went like dia er diamond half a diamond shape yeah what you really want is a and on one side and yet inside the instructions it gave, you know mm two curves yes well I've been thinking about it, what you want is a well we paid about three pounds for those springs springs? mm when do you ever buy when we bought them, when we had the first lot of springs oh I we haven't got them now that's before you must have, must be in me diary well any way look, if I made you a thin bit of steel straight across the centre like that yes, that would it's thicker than hack saw blade, perhaps a bit heavier mm straight across and then put a cross on the other way that's all you want mm like that mm, I know like hack, hack saw blades sort of thing mm edge ways on mm not flat because you stop the air from, to that simple enough where you going to get the spring from? steel mm oh I've got a load of that back of the car Is this too hot with the fire on? no I'm alright is that the boiler making that noise? yeah seems to be louder than usual, don't it? or it's your fan I thought I'd turn the fan on your fan? I know I thought I'd turned it off, I'm going to have a look, something seems to be making a noise it was the vent yeah, yeah I'd put that on as well as the other fan as the fan , the fats congealed with the frost what on the you know in the opening and mm the fans are catching it. How, what's the time now? nearly five too, five too oh stop moaning, you know what you didn't have that there your medicine before your meal, that medicine you're supposed to take before for your chest that's alright now, it's not er, it must of been er congealed in the night in the chest. Tis now she won't agree yeah I the, the disturbed at the way the English lads are speaking ooh without a doubt in a way they find out no I think that it's to get the vocabulary various classes of people and varies age group yeah, but as Les says there's more in it than that there's a, there's of course the entire speaking is getting very bad now in't it yes I brought those all Arthur, erm it's gotta be like that is it? they're the things that's got to fit in, no they're not and now I think, do they just clip on? they just clip on? yes they well, er see that step only there's erm yes I'll just have to stand up I reckon there's another one the other side, perhaps that they yes only just drop on like that don't they? yes and then the piece sticks out where you just er, where it goes on yeah so I don't how'll you, how will you do it?, will you be alright to do it? yeah, is it, is this one alright is it, is it only the one broken or two no there's two, they're the two pins they're, these are all the bits yes well there's only, only enough bit then for I don't yes that's why I shall come up and have a look at are yours don't know that stuff what's clipped on yours, with your pin? no I'll show you in a minute, no or are they just er here you are lets take these what I think Les, I think you should have two walls, I don't know, I think you should have two walls, one either side yes ther ,ther ,there then and that them split at the end yes where it's on er, right see it's split mind that might be hot ooh don't put it on the carpet if it's hot there it is look no that see that spark don't want sewing up? yes see were on a bit of a yes, I move that metal, that comes out and it's split yeah, well what is yours split there? no well what don't stand on it what I think is this oh I see, yes, I see hold on a minute Les lets turn these off mind, your going to spray lets move it away underneath in't it? oh we've got one of them, light bulbs oh things come out to be replaced, look one of 'ems gone, that's why it's dark er, used to, any way, that wants seeing, er I reckon you should have, see that lip yes I reckon you should have another lip and it fits that slide on like that yes so you'll, I shall have to make one yes I wonder if er if you got two bits of thin tin you know yeah, well I and er make you and er it just slides on I think lower that and, and you peg stones up like that that's right, yes see you can't go out cos that's er, and er just pushes on I think yes cos the, cos, cos where's, yeah you see it's very fragile got a where it's come off mm it's, it's parted, the, the, the, the metal fang comes along and then when it gets to the end ere it's split, it's split I you know what that's for, for the spring, it's split like that in't it? what?, yeah it's split like that yes, yes, the metal yes and it which is clips on there I think well, yeah you open that out to make it tight oh I, to fasten it on yeah I see you see you get, over the years it probably expands and it yes becomes loose ah so you open that a bit yes that spring which is that yeah, I and then alright then you'll have to push it on I got it, yes any way I'll make summat to do it right, thank you, you've got the two pins have ya? yeah, yeah Arthur Better find a little dish to put them on so you don't wa well I've got plenty loose them, let me get a dish I've got plenty of drivers like this have ya? yeah here's one here and you've got the other one ain't ya? used to drive erm our machine used to drive did they? what we call drivers yes about two inch long, you know yeah and er, they are very fragile yeah they've made it so as it, it do , you see I, I, I reckon you ought to open my let me make them in te in steel because er they made them like that so that when you pull them off or adjust them yes they won't burn ya no yes I mean they're like er ha hard plastic it is in't it, yes it's like it what are ours? er well metal you see there look yeah well you don't, you don't have to make it in plastic do you? well it does it, its method is to shove them on oh er in or out according to where he wants them to flicker, well you see, as it, as the wearing get hot, that plastic expands and become loose and he's got a, a split, see that steel thing mm ours is like that solid, well his is split, the idea that is you opened it like that, so when you push your others on, it has to compress it and it holds, but over the years it's er the body weaked the body yeah yeah er, er, I can make you one in plastic what but er oh what, oh, I dunno know, er mm, have you had it a few years? ooh yeah about, two the same, one in the lounge and one in the in the dining room one's got the convector on it depends don't it? the top mm and the two bars and the other one's got the two bars mm yeah, they're very good and er, funny that, one in each has gone oh, oh it's you see not the two, yes, so we've still got one lighting on each my tubes have gone, one out of each pack oh I see you've got one, one er, er out of each room that's right yes yeah yes I just remembered one of these lights went last night did they? I forgot to remind Arthur to er yes to replace it yeah yeah get that one down yes without go coming up to say and I presume it's like this, you perhaps told, when I draw it don't draw on that table too much, you'll mark the table now that's your piece still I assume yes coming that way that way yes now this, this is the matter, now you your other bit, I don't think your gonna see it mate put that other lamp on Arthur yeah so you can see yes is Eadie resting? yes, yes, she'll just have an or orange when I came out , she's been, I've been getting a few of those, it seems to help a bit mm, I always eat plenty of fruit yes, yeah Arthur does grapes does he? mm, he loves grapes and apples er we couldn't bring any apples though yesterday, not taking me car with ah carrying, yes we get er how's the arm going Evelyn? well it's, it's still swollen yeah oh her tempers getting the same Les yeah, yeah, yeah but, er I can turn taps and hold things a little bit more can you, yes I well it's gonna take time for that not, not all that to go down, in't it? as you, you know how you sort of hold want to yes hold things in your left hand yes er, it's still not very strong is it? no mm but the swellings gone down mostly I've got gloves ooh it is, it's a lot better, yes quite a while on for the first time yesterday Christmas, yes yeah so yes I think I'll go you can't draw it in yellow cos it don't er take on this so I'm going you don't have to draw it in yellow no, no I'll be alright now if you do them both white it looks all wrong yeah but you've got different colour pencils now this green is your, your yellow yes er there's a slit there ain't there like that?, keep this still yes, that's right, it's open, yeah well oh that's how, how it works now that's, that's the wall of your yellows yes broken that's right and that's the other wall which you need to go yes, as far as I can see with the other one's yeah still on yes yeah , they now, looking at end ways, it's like this in't it? yes that's your, your yellow plastic that's right it's just on the end that's it now here's your steel bit that's split yes like that yes so if you open that er steel bit yes wide like that yes wider than what it is yes it grips when you push it on that's right and the idea that is, is I see it yeah is you want so they will slot it won't they? yeah as I, no, no not the yellow, the, the metals slot in yes and the idea is so you, you push it down to earth, you want it down to there in other words you can move it up and down aargh and I reckon that's it, that's broke on your movement you see yes it's, these walls have broken off there mm see those two walls yes and that's the bottom bit, and that, that there's your steel inside yes that's right but these have broken off and of course it's dropped off I so what I'll shall have to make you is a, you can either have it in metal, or in plastic whatever is, is, is easiest for you Arthur you're doing well I think it's both easy, but er yeah there, it's done with plastic so it don't get red hot when you, when you adjust it yes but then again you'd be a bit daft don't suppose you adjust it very often do ya? no, but you'll be a bit never touched it I haven't no you'll be a bit daft to adjust it when it was hot wouldn't ya? mm, yeah yes, but I've never touched them er if it was mine I'd er, I'd er I've took these off to, to put the bulbs in mm for my money I'd have it with all metal yes but that's the i you see the idea of it now can't ya? yes, yes your yellow bits slides along here to where they were, here's your, here's your point yeah you can have it there, you can have it there, you can have it there ah, ah by pushing it up and down yes and this gets very hot, well fairly hot yes and the plastic soft and broke yes I think what I can see of er of what's on the other one on each fire yeah er there right on the end mm oh I see there right to the end oh Arthur's all, always messing about with ours is he? to sort of make them go round ah you know unless there's a draft yes they won't always flicker do they? no, no , no he likes fiddling about yeah I've made ours go right and left we've got two yeah I've never touched ours much at all well he's only got on , there's one out of each fire oh, we've got two and er well so has Les got two on the same fire? yes but there's one alright and one broken there's four altogether yeah, but, oh four well I'd like to yeah of course, yeah you, you see those wings that are going round there yes, yes he's got two fires these yes I turn 'em what that, that way yeah and this one that way yeah so that one goes to the right and this one goes to the left ah, ha, ha I've nothing, never, yeah he, he fiddles about with he likes fiddling he did tell me though about doing the old pencil in, in here in't it? yes in here Arthur ain't it? or graphite or a bit of graphite, yeah you put the in there, in there do ya? just put your in there? pencil, just put your pencil in and along there yeah and roll it round I yeah, now here's your, there's your peg look your pointer, now draw it in black, you can see it better, there's your pointer, now draw it out here, the bit you brought your, your yellow bit is like that yes and if you, if I make in steel and then can drive in and fit your pin yes you'd have this effect, see there's your wall and the, that then you pin up the middle like that ah, yes you see, but now that, if that were metal and this is your other metal yes you know, what you say that's split yes, where it's gotta go on yeah, gotta go on like that in't it? yes now, for my money now if that were loose I'd open these shall no strip, straight them open so that, they're like that a bit instead er ah, yeah straight like that yes and then if you did that it would tighten on to your walls yes and you could make, adjust it and it'd stay there ah but over the years it's got loose and you've probably fiddled and it did broken ah I should have them all metal cos ours is all metal as you see mm but I'll make you one in, two in plastic if you like yes you want one of them no, no, well whatever it'll be easier these are the best then these get fairly hot yes and er you see these get, well, they're not too hot there yeah but, there's your wall look er what we done with it, there's your wall, that goes, should run er, like that yes then you can adjust it in or out ah I've got it just to get it in the right yes location yes you see, well to keep it tight yes you open those prongs yeah and of course it's probably been yes over tightened or it's and that's all they were fasten on with that sort of stuff that's it mm just slide off would you believe it, it's if, if you like I make it all in metal oh yes, which evers you wanna make well I'll make er I'll make two in metal and two in plastic and then see how you go on no make two in metal instead oh that won't take me five minutes to do that, it won't oh I know your five minutes Arthur, five hours it, it, it be a quick five minutes usually always how the birds going oh I thought you were feeding 'em when oh I was looking you see just before you went upstairs for a bath yeah you were cos I when Les came I thought you were still feeding them apparently on these you know you twist them yes, I, yes I've never bothered with you do know that, not too much them, I mean er but if, if you twist that, that way yeah and that the other way yeah you get erm one going that way and one going the other yeah and also they go better as well don't they? well they're nicer you see they should go better really shouldn't it? mm if there have you seen the records Les is, oh he's going to feed the birds before seven I think you'll find there's quite a selection there and they're, sort out what you want and that you know and er, ooh there's lot of the old ones and every thing and mm yeah well he's busy taping nearly all, our old records is he?, yeah well they're easier to put in the tapes yeah are that's right you, you haven't got a tape machine? no, no no no well we only bought ours last year yeah, yeah but as were getting older we find yes put a tape in ea without any trouble I can't that's right no I can't see to put the needle on properly on the record no, no Arthur says I scratch them any way oh trying to put it on so ah yeah so I never bothered with the records no but with a tape yes just slot them in yeah and that's it no with the, er in fact if I'd known you hadn't got one, the one we had before, oh know it's not got a tape on though, but you've got a record player haven't you? yes yes , yes right, I mean the record player that we've got and radio was quite good yes but it hadn't got the tape no thing no and we gave it to the erm school at over Downing Drive oh yes for, when they were having their sale for their sports and swimming pool or something oh yeah, yeah , mm I mean we had given to us our friends, mad on radios yes, yes and er, you know, he always wanted the very latest and that's right, yeah when he got some money that's right he, he decided to have erm video and every thing and cassette yes music centre yeah so erm, he said would you like it mm instead of your old record player ah, very good so, er we had it for about four years and then Arthur decide to have one of these last year . yes, yeah , yeah It's funny about Ellis having ya, I think, I think yes the re-unions though wouldn't be the pre-war would they? oh I don't know this, this Eileen said something about they had one the year previous yes but for what year? but they didn't when they're having the next one oh it was of your age though oh yes oh yes oh, oh same age as me oh yes because not many of the you know when your was you er, was you in the hockey team or any thing? no played no hockey but was never in a team, no I , us there were one or two er you were in a football team? yes and then there were the er what other name black, Dora oh yes, oh I know Dora she used to be in our dancing troop get out we had a little dancing troop I thought perhaps she might come from something like that yes, yes Dora she was captain of the hockey team well that was before she, well, was she?, I didn't know that oh yes cos she was a bit young, she was more like my young sister age does she dance? she was for the top of the hockey team and I were for the football I've got a picture of her somewhere if you don't feel think there's a fly at the window yeah, yes will you pull the curtain? well would you believe it? yeah but you've never seen her since erm no, do you remember that photograph we've got of that dancing troop? what you? yes yes and Cath, well apparently he knows one of the girls on shall I get it down? do you know where it is? yeah Dora Often wondered what's some what happened to some of the in fact her brother er came to work at Oliver's, er, er did he? in the buying office, er when I was there would you believe it but he didn't stay long no I don't know why yeah, but, they lived in Buller Road Buller Road, yes where did you live when you were McDonald you were in McDonald? Dun Donald Dun Donald yes why, which one was that? next to it next to it before, before Buller get out Robert's Road at the top that's right and I was at the bottom ah well fancy you knowing her yeah, yes and er she, but she was a bit younger than me she was more my young sister's age, two years younger than me ah she would be because she was there yeah she was still there, she was still there when, when I finished mm I don't know whether she was just finishing then so she'll be two or three years younger yes because I think this little dancing troop we had out, I was about the eldest I there was my young sister we used to perform at concerts and where were this at er? Carey Hall and er oh yeah I, I went Carey Hall and er Melbourne we used to go yes that one at Melbourne Road yeah oh that isn't eh that's Dora fancy you knowing her well would you believe it that's Dora , that's me yes I forget what her name is yes oh that's Do that's Betty that's her young sister get out and that's my young sister Cath oh would you believe it these are good ones Les ain't they? yes yes and that one yes, yes I'm trying to think of her name oh that was my young sister's that was my young sister's mother, Wendy was it? in the war nineteen forty oh I didn't know it no forty one yes she's dead now though she's didn't know you were a high brow is she? yeah do what Arthur? didn't know you was a high brow why's that?, where's that? behind the straw at oh, oh got him alright that's not high brow oh, we've got all Bygraves oh he is, there's all Max there yes and have we got erm nice band man, there that's me, that's me mam, that's yeah me dad and that, they're both dead now yeah and er they're all dead now is he really? that's, that's Pam, my erm, me er niece mm she was only about two and a half there well would you believe it?very nice I didn't know we'd still got this don't you look skinny? eh? don't she look skinny? yeah well when you were dancing you, why I always were, well when, when your yeah, well you've gotta be, yeah, well mm and this Molly she always had to be different did she? Dora mother made all that, these dresses did she? yes for about six pence a yard from the dee hive would you believe that well would you believe it well we haven't got much erm yeah much money really, shall I have me hair like that now, short, straight? page boy no it's not page boy, it's just short it would of been in my day er Cath's still got curly hair hasn't she there? yeah that's Betty, that's Dora , that's Dolly Molly I noticed I er, did you notice it, which is the proper way?, often or often? they always say often today I, it's often well what's it got, what's going on then, why do they dunno delete it? yeah mind you some of that er, those pantomime found a box of the er he talks bad, not bad English but not proper English and oh no, no and I think he's good yeah I say Cath reckons Andrew yeah Aud Audrey's boy is like me dad, he is in't it when you look at him well he could be it's in the, in Australian in it, yeah yes, no, my, my, that, her son is, she my sis Cath reckons he's, he's like me dad I I think he is really well we we went to a yeah wedding down South and er took all the photographs he's wedding, Andrew's wedding and er, when we got them printed, before we even sent them off, there were one, somebody, I've been talking to the father in, in the father of the bridge mm now against an apple tree and I asking him I was it permissible to go scrumping and he had to converse with the maid I think yeah and some lady yeah and I, they informed him want scrumping was didn't know what scrumping meant I, yes oh he said it's quite permissible oh and er oh well it posh people weren't it yeah well I, getting back to the picture you see, I, when I looked at it I thought good god it's our Bill, I, I you could of thought it were twin brothers when I I looked at that, you know yes seeing him and then seeing him on that that's right, yeah and yet when it, in er, when say comes round or I'll go round you don't look at all that much alike no, no that's right but I suppose you do in a way yeah you used to always say you can tell they're brothers like these that's right, yeah though they are sisters and yeah still have you got any brothers? two two still alive? what you yeah, round, yeah, yes one in Colchester Road and one's er Bramall Road mm that's just have you seen the new car? I, what's happened? when did they get that? ooh they came and fetched the old thing did they? about last Thur they came about nine, half past nine? no, it wasn't it was it were dark it was about six o'clock that night it weren't no, no, it was, it was just after five it was darky any how, he couldn't see what he was doing yes, well it is dark at four yeah because I thought Beverely would be coming home and she wouldn't be able to yeah get in get in because the trailer and thing yes, yeah was loud what he had, what he had was a biggish lorry with a low fork lift back ball yeah and er he'd got, he, we used to call them that you hooked on to the back of your lorry yeah like the bit, the brewers do yes , tip yeah, yes to roll the barrels down yeah well what he, he got a windless behind his cabin yeah electric yeah and he started it off and I wreck creeping up on, er right onto his cabin I, I so it's gone he, he rushed off as soon as that were done right whether somebody is whether complained it wasn't the the proper, proper people no, no no markings on it, you know he's got another one now then yes, because my er, my niece's husband when he came er, oh they brought us back, they fetched us Boxing Day and brought us back and he said it would be a right off he said mm the damage to the front oh yes he said, I don't think they'll be able to repair that no and they next day that one that came I they put it on the drive for yes about twice yes but it's still is it's on the road again I think yes he, yeah I don't think he can get in all that much yes he gets fed up trying to get it on the drive it by coming down yeah I've just been and put yes seed out oh yes I is there a lot there? yeah twenty two we usually get yes I counted twenty four , you what type are they all doves are they? there coloured doves colour As Asian coloured doves yes and er the is gonna build that factory at the back yes he said are they your pige factory? well it looks like a factory yeah he said er er are they your pigeons?, I said no, I says er accommodation doves and they're protected, he says what'd ya mean protected, he says you've not got to kill them er they want them to stay in England ah you know and our and I have our own breed where are they, in the, do they, are they well, well in the trees or from around here? no they come from the park they come from over the sh , the shop way a lot of them do they? I I reckon they hang round there for the chips we get one or two, but not as mad like that oh no some, some might of join 'em from the park, but I most of 'em come from over there, and I, there's a fish shop there you see with the stuff ah you know that's right we get a lot of the seagulls come do you? oh yeah, yeah yes how's Eadie any way? well a little bit better, but not a lot, not with the chest and that so with with the antibiotics not done a lot of good we just half talked the other day about holidays, er, a, I don't suppose you're going are ya? not no now, no, matter of fact I do but I weren't sure where, I think it were last week it were gonna be yeah or it could be this week, er you know how they have the January and they have it in Haymarket that's right with all with all the people in yes have the , ah they're still there well no they're having it in the er, that one against top of the market, what is it called er? mm that place Saracens Head? no, the, it's like er Council oh County rooms County rooms County rooms and it were gonna be in there Thursday oh Friday, Saturday which week?, or you don't know I weren't sure whether it was last Thursday, Friday or Saturday or this mm or this Thursday, Friday, Saturday, but er if I have to go up town I, I'll probably go just round there mm and just pop me head round and, and see, in case it is this week mm cos I reckon Brend I'll be there mm and different ones, but they said all I wouldn't , I wouldn't mind going for a few days all the brochures are gonna be there you see mm, mm, mm for every thing I wouldn't mind going away for a few days, but mm it's a bit dicey this time oh now it is, yes yeah , although you've got it yeah on your chest this morning haven't you? ah, well, ah where's your pull over?, you better put that on I woke up in the night a pain here I and I thought, ooh, any way, I went to sleep again and when I got up to myself yeah er had the pain again and now it's going I er probably might be doing with a bit of wind, indigestion stuff oh I I hadn't thought of that with your food no, well he was a bit chesty your were got catarrh like you've a I suppose you have bronchitis don't ya when you're old I mean were, was it sore or burning? not burning er raw, like raw and when you coughed it was oh well yeah when you cough you know oh well I had it like had it like a jab like a oh well well you know what he did, on Monday morning he was in the garage when he suddenly made up his mind to com to walk across to the paper shop to get a paper and he hadn't got er a jacket or any thing on, all he got on was a pull over oh, er, well well I was alright and it started to drizzle a little bit didn't it? yes mm I mean it was ridiculous but you were keeping warm by being under co , in a bit of a cover you see oh yeah, yeah and you were going out into the and it blows across like that I mean I went I called to him and I thought where's where's he gone yeah , yeah I thought you off for a minute yeah looked in the garage, I thought well where's he gone, he's not oh dear did you look under the cover? no I didn't oh mm and then I was just getting worried eh, eh who's that? looks like he's got his kids today it is his kids is he the one next door? no he's further up no the oh I see next one yes he does make yeah, yeah would you like a cup of tea? no, no I'll, I'll get back now you sure you won't? Evelyn cos of leaving Eadie you want a drop of whisky then pardon? drop of whisky or any thing? no, no thank you Arthur, any way yeah use what you want yeah now I mean now got 'em all but if, take your pick and er yeah, yeah, yeah we've got not, not the same record but the same people Strauss, got one of Strauss yes but I'll er sort, sort out, any thing you can use to help you with the tape tape yes you know those right and don't worry about getting 'em done and getting 'em back to us no okay you can keep as long as you like because I, I, I keep them alright shan't want 'em for a long while er the little room up there we call the music room yes where we we only use, we only fetch 'em out about at Christmas time we, we never ev , we never used it oh we might have a oh we did at first, when we first had the record player years ago didn't we? oh yeah, what we do now I've got a, a bought cabinet yeah with sliding doors, to keep the dust off them and that ah, yeah so they'll be, I, I put the perhaps start on them tomorrow then and get so you'll get them back this is right and as regard this, an all, don't worry about this well plenty of time tomorrow we've got to go out you can if, if it's there's no rush were not wanting 'em unless it's foggy or frosty were not wanting 'em, we've got one in each going so yeah we've been like that a long while, so a lot longer won't matter we've got to go out tomorrow we've got to go and get some heavy shopping done ah cos we haven't had the car for apart from nearly a fortnight yes, right , well don't let him get mucking about with these then and wasting his time well I've got to get a bag of potatoes well it's her we always have a bag of potatoes do you? milk man ran 'em off oh what a big bag? yeah oh, oh no we have half hundred weight ah and Jack well why I do a saucepan every day yes and Jack's the birds have most of them that's right and we get Jack in yes and we usually get Jack in if you ever want a bag you know er, yes will bring it round well perhaps they don't eat many potatoes do they? er not, not a big you having tin potatoes weren't you when Eadie was here? oh yes, yes and they're cheaper we've gone back to the others though now yes, we get and they're cheaper buying them like that ooh cheaper buying them in a hundred weight bag oh of course they are, yes, yes oh we'll bring you bag no he doesn't er, he doesn't eat so many yes cos they don't keep do they? no, no no what d'ya reckon the idea of that was? oh to make a bit of money yes, yes it was very good that, very nice not bad are they? yeah it's surprising how it looks from the oh yes you know, even I say to Evelyn when I was watering I said er, as if , it was if you've got a picture of your gardening it'd be nice wouldn't it? yes, yeah, yeah did you see mind you might, might of taken some because say they took some in Valentine down there yes, yeah, yeah he seemed to think he's the er, he were doing it to sell them oh well he must be yes he said, I think people are take er, you know I showed it Tom next door, I says er, it, I says, he came and had a drink and to, and to see Evelyn and I says look you can tell Oliand and Dog Tongue ah yeah, yeah I've often wondered about the other two's gardens it, but you can see now can't you? yes you can can't ya? it don't amount to much does it? no, very good any way I think yours I'd make a lovely picture what puzzles me though The Gables yes paint in blue, but they're blue yeah well it's just the light on the picture isn't it really? yes that's right any way I shoot off and as I say hope you'll soon be a bit better both of you oh yeah I've just got this sore throat and throat and that I'll er but er just yeah Bramall Road bye, bye Les right bye It's a pity Les came when that Major Barber was on, I was just enjoying it yeah you hadn't seen much of it had you?, but no I was just enjoying it oh well , you'd of thought he'd be looking at it wouldn't ya? well, er Eadie was resting but er, it's good, I thought I wouldn't want to see it again, but I'd forgotten it vase, is like er, he had a majority of two thousand, now he's lost three thousand voters well if, perhaps they're not paying, if they're not paying the poll tax the tax, yeah they're not supposed to be on the voting register, are they?any way did you see where Liverpool two thirds have not paid mm, no I didn't see that no didn't see it , it was on the one o'clock news oh you're right yes spokesman believes that majority of missing vouchers are poll tax dodgers well they should she said this won't help labour get in, these people were, page, five oh I expect they are on, on the Council they ain't consistent then with the Council Estate any way shouldn't think Labour would get in Liverpool if two thirds are not on he no although I bet, I bet they're non pay Not till nine thirty. You know that painting he had, the last painting of himself? He said to the painter er, what are you going to show me er, no, what are you going to paint me, a bulldog or th the chair? Mm. And er, he said well that depends on what you show me. Well, I think it, he had a bit of a stroke and he sort of looked, you know Looked a bit erm, senile didn't he? Well he painted him , painted him he said, and, you know when he died er the well not, no he, they both went in the garden and burnt the pa , the painting. Yes I remember that. Oh well it were painter who died. But th , they burnt it up. But I I thought then he'd had a slight stroke so to make him I think he had. look like that. Ah! Look! Have you seen this? No. Model craft sale. You know that shop we saw when we got lost up Ayleston Road? Mm. And I said there's that other model making shop Mm. they're advertising big reductions. What? Including radios, kits and accessories. Model shop. Erm, radios and kits, that But it's a model , they sell shop Oh I see! they sell things like that shop they closed down. Mater , materials likely. Cable Road, Ayleston. We can go and have a look at how far in Ayleston is it? Well I saw that pai , I saw the shop as, as we came down the Ayleston Road, near the terminus. Mhm. We've got the map Mm mm. in the car. We'll get that way, we'll have a look at Mm. Did it say how long? Open Sunday, ten till four. Mm! Must have a lot of stuff! We could go Sunday. Yeah. It's probably closing down like that other one. I, he's about the Well he went er only one He we , he only left. he only went about a week and then he closed. No he didn't! Yeah. It was three months Well so but he might be closing down because You see nobody's making much are they? your teenagers don't make ships and things now, they don't want to Mm. it's work you see, and they don't wanna work! We could go Sunday morning couldn't we? You see they don't want finicky stuff, they want er a large pay packet fo , er stamping er envelopes. Mm. Is that all? Is that, oh! What shall we dispose of? Well you don't to see a football match. True. True. Is it we ,? I don't think there's anything much on now. Have a You er rest for a couple of minutes. Are you going to have a drink? I think you ought What to have another Beechams tonight. what do you suggest? Well you can have Rat poison or arsenic! Well you , don't be silly! And what else? No, what you going to have? Would you like a dob of, drop of hot whisky and lemon, or wait till you get to bed? I can't have lemonade so Wait until you get, what, do you want it now or when you go to bed, take it to bed? They don't sleep do they? Why take them to bed? I'm talking about a drink, silly! I don't mind what we have, you er, you're the barman. You can expedite it if you like. Can you picture that house? You'll make that . What? Les come up with the same ideas I thought when I se , when we had bought it. What was that? He said, ooh! Well, if you wanna sell the house you only gotta get up round and show them that ! Oh I see. He, he's correct isn't he? I thought of that er . Well if it came over his house th oh of course, next to the that will have been empty for a few years so Yeah, but they see the length of the garden, you know that garden Yes, it's a nice all It's a nice garden. Mm. But I mean ,nex , next door was all er, overgrown it's not been . We've got a fair length in there haven't we? Yeah. Cos it was good! You know, there was more than enough really. I keep going hot and now I'm cold, and then my throat's hurting. I think, would you like to do some er adaptation, you know with a I think pair of wires to well I think it would say on it and then shut this er on the roundabout too. Well I told you that man was trimming trees at the bottom, the other day. We could have gone to him. Well, there's plenty of time. I know but, if you're shoulder's bad, you won't be able to do it. We shall have to see shan't we? Shall we not? Oh dear! No, but if they took Les's garden you see the other side would be a rubbish dump so Mm. True. But then They probably wouldn't take it. it won't always be a rubbish dump I know , but Yeah. but you wouldn't want a photograph of your garden a and a rubbish the other side. Well that's only a little bit that bit is. I mean, you can see that's a new building Mm. just that little bit they haven't cleared up. But er that lady ha who's had that extension done about cutting the branches er wouldn't you rather see it like that? Well, no I don't know. I bet she'd no , see a difference if we cut them down wouldn't she? Mm. The way I looked at was a rubbish tip, that bit it looks as if he's cleared and the grass is growing. And grass growing , yes. And all slabs and bricks and Ah but there is some behind that fence. You can't Mm. really see from that. I see. No. That's all rubbish there. Yeah. Didn't know had a glass house did you? It's not! That's the garden in Summerleigh I keep telling you that! Oh it comes down to from there. Course it does! Yes! Mm. It's on the border. Why did they put it right down the bottom? Long Well way to go! Put it where it's convenient don't they? I think you'd better go to bed . Did er, Tom like the I've never seen a better one th have you? No it's a lovely frame! Usually only get like that but Yes,th th the narrow . That's to give it more sales value I suppose. Do you think? Mm. Oh, our damn stupid wheelie bin there that Mm. that daft wheelie bin! Think he'd take it down the bottom wouldn't you? Well ours is still there from It's er yesterday Yeah, but that's only cos I ain't got the car out. But I mean, they got, they gotta come out the front to put stuff in haven't they?till that was clean int it? Mm. It was clean the other day before they took Yeah. it. That's Tom's drive, int it? There. That bit. Mm mm mm mm. Goes up to his garage. And then that's the, bit of a well they can't build any more can they? You said they were building another garage didn't you? No I didn't. You said they were! They were doing some a , in the renovating something. Yeah. Perhaps a , they're building that. Cos look Tom's garage nearly reaches the wall. I know. He's just padded something down. Perhaps something Mm. went wrong. Yeah. And he had the workmen back. Don't do that ! Where e'er you be, let the wind go free! Do you want a, er, do you wa , no I don't think you better have a Beechams now, I think you better have one later. In, you know that To go to bed. You know that film er a boat er, a boat we er Mm. The African Queen The African Queen. he had a rolling stomach. Mm. When he dranked anything. Well, aren't you going to have a why don't have a egg sandwich? It's alright,had enough to eat. You didn't have all that mince pie. Christmas cake. I'll have a mince pie or Christmas cake. Well, which do you want? Betwixt between them. Cup of coffee and I know, a cup of coffee and a drop of Cointreau, we haven't had any of that. Yes, that will do fine. And a Christmas cake. Yeah. Okay. And two cherries on a stick! Ah well, you'll be lucky! I think it was taken in the July fortnight. Oh really? Mm! Tha that's his car that was smashed up. Yeah the smashed up one. Yeah. Well he's got a new one He's got another one. now. Has he? Ford Orion. Oh yes! Mm! Let's just put my coat on. Oh yes! Take your coat off a minute Evelyn. Yeah. Oh that's good int it? Yeah! That's good! I shall have a Ah! couple of newspapers. There's all the back gardens. Super int it! It's our clean road. We've just been to Nursery. Oh we're, we're going to Sainsburys in a minute. Have a look Takes a lot to clean the place up. Ooh yes! You There's a You can And see the difference see the difference. can't you? The man said, how is it your grass is greener than next door? Yes. How is it? Well you get the frame and all the lot. Oh! Do you really? Mm. Frame That's marvellous isn't it, really? you get the frame and all the lot. Marvellous! Yes! Very good! That's not right is it? Very good! Have you read that Vince? Pardon? Have you read that letter? Yes. Oh yes. over there this morning then? Anyway what I don't know what your er accent is? Not from here. Geordie. It's Geordie. Geordie. Yeah. Geordie! Oh! Northumberland, yeah. Er . Newcastle on Tyne. of spoken English. I knew you came from North but I never knew exactly where from. Oh yes! Newcastle. That's the place. Put it down. Sit down a minute. Yes alright. Don't stand up. No we're not, no we're not sitting down like. We got a lot, we got a lot Sit down on er seat over there. got a lot to do. Now go and have a look in the hall it looks beautiful! I like the idea, do you? Oh that's nice, yeah. Well I thought the dado would make a change Yes. you know. It is nice isn't it? Of course, it's purple. Yeah, it's beautiful! And that's lovely! And we're doing the top as well. To the very end. I like your skirting board, er er changed round. Yes, it's a nice change. You like it? It looks nice don't it? Beautiful! Yes, you've made a good job of it. Nice bit of wood that! Yes, there's a Kath! Yeah. Well this is alright, but we're only doing it for the beneficiaries int you? Yeah I know. What then? I i , it's so it's something to think about isn't it? They'll say You've gotta live with it! Look at that horrible side table ! It were alright, you know, so much We've got to live with it and Yeah. Yes, I'll be taking him ho , have you er, had your carpet cleaned? No. Ah ! It keeps well doesn't it? Yes. It's only been cleaned once since I've had, and it's been down er, since nineteen Well what's your verdict then? seventy four. What's your verdict? Yeah, that looks alright. Yes! Yeah. You know what I think er,th we've been talking about it round about and I says, you know, they were wondering if it was a bit suspic , I said no,th , they worry to death, there's our children who speaking like the nig-nogs! Yeah! That's right. Did you mean this? Yes. I reckon that's what it is. Well it is! Quite right Arth! No ,we , well I think it's the It is to do with that isn't Yes. it? Yes. Yes. In the dictionary and Yes. there's what Yeah. vocabulary is being used in Yes. present day Yes. that's what it was. Yes! That's right, yeah! Mm! Is that Probably is. a new cabinet you've made. No! We made No. We've made that, that We made many years ago. Looks nice doesn't it? Oh! Sa Do you replenish the glasses though? Are they for show? What the glasses? Glasses ! Erm Oh we use them! Oh! We broke, we've broke one they keep breaking though! We use some for, I'll tell We broke what it's for if you want one? one of these erm one of those green ones we broke. But that's all. Yeah. That's all we've broken really. Mm. Have you got a glass? Yes! Oh! Oh, I didn't know that. Ooh it's all on there! That's supposed to be Er well we want Penny to, Penny's not coming today, had to supposed to be test that is. go to Nottingham on a course Mm. Mandy's in Derby Mm mm. for week and er Does she stay in Derby? I thought she was Oh no! travelling daily. Daily. Daily. On the train? On the train, yes. Did you buy these? And erm The ? And no now next week she's got to go Leeds. Oh no , I found those other chairs, the side, yeah. It's just right She likes it then? for the Ooh yeah! I still like the cabinet though , yes! myself. Yeah. But she's still planning But they must know. you know, I like the that way, but Mm. this is ever so. Yes! Yeah. It is Oh! Yeah! Oh yeah. They have to work But still you know, quite, But I'd wished I'd, I wish I'd have got those photographs to show off. Oh the er photographs that er Cow bell was that? that Joyce had taken? Oh yeah! What what did Mandy Er, no Mandy and Neil. She's studying photography at night school Mm. and she's took a whole lot of Mandy and Neil! They're beautiful! Oh this lady? It's Yeah! Lovely pictures! Mandy's boyfriend's mother. Really well done! Are they all portraits? Super! Yeah. Er Mandy had one taken for How's your car doing, alright? Penny's birthday. Oh yes! Evelyn said, don't it run well! I said at eight years old, it should do but it Not bad for eight year old is it? Shall I go and put the kettle on? Well, if you like that. Er, if I have coffee in the morning I didn't wanna come out cos of the salt though. I do sometimes. Erm Yeah. Well I I if it had It's not bad yet is it ? No. There's not too much down. They throw all the bloody salt Yeah. out when there's no ice! Do you always have coffee? We always have Oh yeah! coffee round about ten. As soon as you fix, cos er, as soon as you fix your car it starts to work! Yeah. Yeah. And the bloody ! Er, found out, that on these motorways the bridges were ro , collapsing because the iron work with the salt from the road were it, wouldn't you have thought Oh I know! they'd have thought of that! Well all er Yeah the the salt's getting down to th , and it's all running riot! All hindsight isn't it? They're your grandchildren? Oh! That's a long time ago. Yes. I was going to say, they're growing up now aren't they? Yes! Arthur, would you like a cup of coffee? Er, no thank you. You sure? Would you like to have it Well my waterwo , if I start drinking and then I'll want to go, and if I can't go Well we've got two toilets! Oh I know, but Well we've got to go to Well you don't want a , you don't want a sherry then? No, if I get round so Have a sherry then. I'll perhaps want to go and then I've gotta go up then . We've got to go and get some potatoes. And er then to Sainsburys to do the shopping. I reckon you get like that in old age Vince. Well er, Madge to have her hair done yesterday. Mm. Oh Wednesday, yes! Yeah, she's had it permed. Mm. Some of the men were on Is that the new idea? Yes. No, well I wanted to get back like We do have some seats, you know! Yeah. Mm! I like the, the vase you brought me! Yes, but you've gotta sit down in the end so Well have you got anything to hold that? That's er Oh yes. we've got a pair like that. Ooh! You know that teapot we had on our Welsh dresser? Yeah. Some man came Oh. round, well came round earlier in the year, we sold him bits. Oh! Ten pounds! Ah, he'd got a Ten pounds for that old For tha that teapot? that tea, that, you know, ten I remember. pounds. It didn't really match the things on our Welsh dresser. He said, I'll give you ten pounds for that. Mm. So I said, you might as well. Might have been worth a thousand! I doubt it! Do you watch the Antique Well I Roadshow? Yes. it's too. I , I don't know what deciding though, I says, funny enough I said there were one just like this at Millaires and I didn't qualify where it was, but it he latched on to it and it's er a posh place, you know,Millaires Mhm. Yeah. Mhm. one of these historic Yeah. Mhm. and only like a village but er Yeah. very old, see I said, there one in antique shop exactly like that, but I said, but it were cracked and they wanted twenty six pound for it. Mm! I said, I don't know whether it's, they've sold it. As soon as I said that, he said I'll give you ten pound. He went anyway and I thought we might as well have the ten pound . Yeah! Because,i it was we've got too many bits on the Welsh dresser anyway. Well , yeah, well yes if you've got er . But I suppose Well I couldn't Well I I get my wedding ring on. I Yeah. Oh! er Oh you sold him some Still bi bits of rubbish ! Ooh it's a bit wonky int it? Well I think well it is anyway, I mean I've got a swollen wrist. Mm. It's by the time I could get my gloves on . It's swollen It's swollen there isn't it? there. Yeah. That's where it hurt most, the thumb. Yeah. And that You know that and that you just third one. Mm! It never hurt on the arm. It does sometimes now. Did you see the football match last night? No. A footballer done the same thing. And this morning We only switched the last few minutes on. and this morning on the news, said he's broken it, they said Broken there. a dislocated so so shoulder Shoulder. said there is the a surgeon in the er, audience? Orthopaedic one, yeah. But er, this morning they said it's a broken wrist. I said, he's done what you do put his fist out to hold him Yeah. and For for Mm. support. Yeah. Yes it's er I know. it's still swollen now int it? Yeah. Yes. And your fingers are Ooh yeah! aren't they? Ooh! Ya! Mind you, they said they yeah, well a bit on the other hand. And that wrist is. Ooh yes! A bit like, I like all this a And you're using it now are you? Yes. A bit. Yeah. Yes. I like all this and that bit but she has er, you end up to go on the dirty little foxes and you get on and there's so ,runny nosed yobbo kid about twelve, gets on and sits on his foot! On his bottom. Yeah. Oh aye. Yeah. Oh yeah! Oh I've seen that! But yo , and you're in Yeah! your best sort of coat! They only ever care if it's Yes! Mm! Well why do they sit on their foot for? Well they do don't they? Oh yeah. Well pull your scarf on then. Did you hear this morning's news Kath? Pardon? Did you hear this morning's news? No. The er erm Don't you have the news on in the morning? No. er Well I, well I what do they call in the morning ! what do they call these mountain bikes? Mountai , I don't what they're called. Mountain bikes aren't they? The mountain bikes. Two lads, went up to them and says get off that bike or we'll pull you off! He got off and they went off with it! He left it? And it's a brand new mountain bike! Yeah. Well Amanda, er Just like that! Neil's had his stolen you know! No! But just like that! And they Yeah, well it, it was locked up in the shed and the shed was You're not safe anywhere are you really? locked! Mm! And then er he he claimed and he go , he had a new one Oh. and then er they they found it at the polic , the police station They found one didn't they? well, somebody found it down by the river just at the back of where they live so it must have been somebody round about Mm. who had it. Just watch them getting Mm. it here and Yeah so nothing at all safe. Maggie's got it now, but nobody uses it. Well that's alright Kath, you see No nobody uses it. but er Well the kids round our way they have bikes but they never go anywhere on them just take to go and do a paper round. well you take a two hundred and forty quid Mm. bike and Mm. then they'll come on this morning, if you have half a pint of beer you're over the odds, you'll be pinched. Mm! And when you think that his bike be more important Yep. than me having half Than you . a pint of beer. ? Yes, it was eight I'm waiting for a new one. We want a new one. In fact having a new one. Nice! It's permanently like that. It's been Oh is it? sitting there shuffling my feet. Oh is it? Oh! It's er bit of arthritis in it I think, in the rug. In my rug, yeah ! Or ruggitis in it! Oh dear! Well it's gonna be nice! Yes it is, yeah. Yes th , I'm glad Yeah. we came out. There's a lot of wet though in the country roads. Oh yeah. Where do you go shopping, Tesco? Tesco, yeah. Er, only been there two or three times and we had miles to walk to the shop ! Ah! We went on one car park and we couldn't find it ! Ah. Well we park right beside it. Well I know you can now Yeah. we ought to have driven Lovely! driven round until we had found it. Well, yeah , there's four car parks, you see. Yes I know, well we, we must So th have parked, parked on Yeah. the one furthest Yeah. away. That's a good picture int it? Yeah , we suddenly saw it Well I'm glad you said it in . Very good, that is! I know. Nice to have, isn't it, that? Yes. Ah well they were down in the garden we said They were offering it around. oh we might Yes. as well. Look at my birds though. That's a giveaway int it? All, all the pigeons and all the The bird there. Yeah. I think Yeah. it was taken last July fortnight because Jackie and Tom were away and that Mm. bit was all Oh! bit dried up Yeah. That's that car that was smashed up, you saw. Yeah? That's before it was smashed up. But before that's Yeah. they the same? Look in that garden look. Yeah. They have two gardeners comes round. Oh yeah. Yes yours looks good! Mm. Really lovely aren't they? That one's alright but i it's it's all grey look. Dried up like. Yeah that . And i is this the house that's got the extension on? Is that one or the one o over the road? No that you mean, near the back of the gardens? Mm. Ah! That's the one. Oh that's, oh course it is! That's the back, yeah. That's the back, yes. That's the back. That's right. Yeah. Hey! You see this but she said, ooh, I've had, didn't tell you, I've had the burglars! I said, what's the matter with your lad's wrist? She says he's er he's fell over in the, you know, and er, he he's al , he were always running, he gets on left side onto us runs to this corner, calls out to the missus He did. look see that one there, that one there. Oh yes! Yeah. he were running up and down the little bugger! Look at that. Trying to fall. You can't beat them, you know, they know all the Oh! They know Oh! all the answers I know. don't they? All the tricks of the They know the trade. They know exactly how to re And if they don't know, there's somebody to advise them. Yes. Yeah. They'll know exactly Well how to run the country and they shortly! We were er grumbling about that his wrecked being outside. He'd, somebody advised him because if it hadn't got a license number plate on That's it. Mm. it couldn't, it shouldn't have been left out there. Ah. Mm. He had taken a le , he had a taken a license off, he'd got his money back on his license. Mm. Oh! Mm. He's done it before has Still on, but he's had it taken, he had it taken away last week. Ah! Mm. Mm. Whether somebody cottoned on or Ah! I don't know but But you sho somebody had told him that. It must be taxed if it's on According to the road. Ye , well that's Yeah. what Jackie on the end the road said. Even if it's standing on the road. I do it looks blue if you turn it somewhat. Yeah. Yes it does. It does. Yeah. Yeah. Except it lo it looks black there. Look there in the Yes. shade. Yeah, you got a bit Yeah, you can tell it's blue. Oh yes, it's in the shade. The sun shining on it. isn't it? Yes. You can just see it. See it. Just see it, yeah. Yeah. See that park's black and yet it's that blue. Mm! Mm. Yes. Yeah. Come along then. Mm! If we've got to get to . The part I like. Lovely that! The , that one who's had the factory built, look at his front garden! And how many , did they do the whole estate or Well he's done a lot, because we were on the bus on Tuesday, and er couple who live in which is one of those roads up Yeah. Aha. er, she said that they'd been to the said this man had been to her house. Oh! And but they wouldn't buy it. Yes! That was the windows you can see? Well Madge Well I can't see, er can't see really can you? And you're getting a reflection No I can't see this. from these . Mm! Ooh I say! I know. And this is all I know what it, I know what it costs for that sort of wood. And Yeah. the framing. Yeah! Yeah. Yeah! It's lovely! Perhaps if you don't have a reflection you see better I, I can't No Madge can't see. I really can't, no. Yeah. Well there's jus Especially this light is the worst. In win In the winter,yo , like you know. Yes. Anyway. Ah! Ah! Ah! We're recording what you say on there. You don't mind do you? What's that fo , what was that? It's for market research. Er the , the Oh! the ge , powers that be are worried about the er No they're not! English language dying out. Out. Oh, well, yeah! So now they're wrote to us picking them, doctors and people like us that are Well in in each category. people like us that are A retired couple who university sort of people. Yeah. Well they're all different. No! Yeah. She wants somebody from each a broad Yeah. Oh! And they want to find out if er, this pigeon English from the No they don't ! this pigeon English is working into the system. Yeah. Well, I think it is! Well, there you see! Tom thinks Yeah. the same. Ooh yes! I do. Evelyn she's so dogmatic! A dreadful ! Ooh no! They wouldn't do a thing like that! All these they want to It's just this bring their own Course they would! and you see Course they do! of language don't they? Yeah. Look at Ooh! look at the Americanisms we've got, included in the dictionary Yes! Yes! Yeah. Yes! now! Yeah. Yeah. Which weren't in thirty years ago. Ooh they say, er the Queen said er she said often, for often well yo , I thought she'd be well on the form. Oh! Yeah. And they're all saying it now on telly, often. Of , often. Yeah. Alright. Are you cleaning the Yeah. windows? Yeah. I can't clean windows! Oh I, don't do them with a window leather, I do them with Ah!ah, Windolene Mm. Sainsburys stuff Oh I've not wo , I get that from, oh it's ever so good that is! What's that? I get it from down at the hardware shop. It I've had Sainsburys and everything and the windows Oh I've had that Tinkerbell and and er stuff years ago. No! The best I've ever had. What's that? It's about a pound. Well it was Mm. the last one I, I want another one. With ammonia? Ooh mine Yeah. had got er vinegar in. No. You squeeze it on, just Yeah. Like, I've got you know one like that. Ain't done this one yet. What is this Ah ! well that bloody bird's been again! Oh no it's not it's the . The birds are marking up that window there! Eh! alright? Can see the sun through the windows! Yes, he this morning. Ah but you read that. It's er Yeah. She's been having it off with him! er Sarah. Well that happened two years ago didn't it? Eighteen months ago? Sh er Er , did you see the programme What's that Arthur? of all those sheep being tu , treading on each other,uri urinating on each other on top of a lorry going to France? No. They want to send them dead but they will have it send them alive. And er you know, I often think if er the sheep knew what the farmers were up to they'd grow teeth wouldn't they? They'd have them all! Well I think it's I think it's terrible! They, I mean if they were, if they were tigers they wouldn't do it would they? It puts you off eating meat altogether! Does. Yeah. Arthur's nearly vegetarian now! We saw one er last night, or the night before Oh aye. and killing pigs You've gotta think strains of er pigs, so that they just lie there of fruit, vegetables and animals and you know and er Yeah. Ooh! It were awful! The the laboratories that created them were . Yeah. Well Ooh! It, it were, it was awful what was on That's the other, last night! Was it last night? Go to the No it was still, I expect it does. Yeah it was last night. Did you see the football match? Yeah. Tha , well you didn't see much of it did you? Oh no not We only saw the last No. few minutes of it. Oh yeah , I was Didn't you see I was washing some bottles off. Didn't you see the Started making Madge. a brew again. One of the footballers did the same as Evelyn. He, he, he leaped onto somebody in the goal mouth where the post was and i , he turned on a, off the other way in the post, and he landed like that and Oh. and, then they said, is there a orthopaedic surgeon in the audience? In the crowd. This boy is lose Oh. he's broke his arm. Chapman. Ah! On his hand it was. Lee Chapman. Yeah. And he's er Er, you know, he saved hisself with this er Yeah. Of course, you automatically if you're falling you put your hands out don't you Yeah. to save yourself? Yeah. Yeah. Somebody told Evelyn they got a, she got a thousand pounds for slipping on pavement. Oh! Yeah. But you but you gotta prove the negligence. You gotta prove , well I I couldn't see Yeah. anything that I slipped on. No. No. You know why? Not a cabbage leaf or there wasn't orange peel Madge. so Your sister's a bit naive! Er, you look she falls, er, two or three rush to her, the stall holder fetches a chair, they're all round her his son's picking up the bit she slipped on. Yes. Course he does! Yes! Ooh yes! She'd fallen , she'd But why go to all that? Yeah. Ah! But I mean Ooh yes! that's the way I'd work. Yeah. Yes! That shows how crafty you are then doesn't it! Yeah well. I'm not like that, I can't, I can't You think too much. you know I always think now Oh I don't know. what's the motive? Er yes, well Afterwards then, don't you? You know how market people think do you? Well! Yeah you do! Mm. Er Yeah, so I mean, it's horrible what they do to animals isn't it? Oh it is! Yeah! Oh! It is. Pigs, they just lie there and get fat! Well what's the meat going to be like? Yeah. Eh? Yeah. And what are we going to be like eating it? Well pork isn't an any now is it? Well No diet in it now. Nothing is it? Er, and it's hard! It never used to be hard! a tender bit of pork. Well it's, it used to melt in your mouth hadn't it? Yes. And it don't smell And all this. the same when it's cooking either No! does it? Loin of pork Yeah. you know, roasted It used to be When our beautiful! melt in your mouth! when were at home we had to have it every week didn't we? Yeah. Cos they didn't like beef. Didn't like mutton, lamb. They like beef now. I don't like Well you know that beef. you know that teapot we have on the Welsh dresser like a cockerel? Yeah. Well I've got Er you get some man come and gave me ten pound for it. What's it going? Yeah. He came to get it. We just met him today. Apparently he brought somebody who wa , who was Oh! interested in that little what is it? That wa the little ? No. The little thing on the front in the front. That's what he came to see. That one you mended the foot of. I don't know what you call, that little old man. Oh right! Yeah, they got He came that. in a way se , he came to look at that. Yeah. But anyway he wasn't interested. Then he saw the He said it were continental something and th Yeah. And then he he saw this Welsh dresser, he said I'll give you ten pounds for that. Yeah. And, I've got too many things on the Welsh dresser anyway. And he didn't leave a card. And they always need dusting don't they? So, I thought, ooh ten pound! Might as well have it! Have it! Yeah! Too true! Well I mean I've we're always breaking the blooming things! Things. Ye , well you've got too Yeah. many you do. You do. I mean, you broke one of my best wine glasses the other day! Yeah. One day so you But bought it. it slipped. Er you're only supposed to drink I said to him where's my wine glass? Yeah. Yes, but when you're working, like and you Next thing I knew I heard a crash Crash. when you're bricklaying and gardening all the works That's why I just keep my old ones up there that we use every da , er, you know Well I and I've got my best all in the sideboard I'd got some cupboard. I'd got some old but we broke all the old ones, so we're having to use the best Yeah ! She always told Yeah. me that, when visitors come you, you gi , you give them the Give them old ones in case they No I don't! drop them! Don't stir ! Oh dear! No but when you're at work Madge, er, bricklaying and er filing your hands are rough now they're like Yeah. silk Yeah. And they slip. I pick something up Yeah. and being eighty It slips. two as well, you Slip! can't afford Yeah. to still! Yeah. Oh well. Well that's what I do. And you sold half your ring and all, didn't you want to cut up ? Oh yes. Well they made such a mess of this ring! Then when Are you had a new one? I know you I lo , no. Not yet. I haven't got my wedding ring on yet! Oh have you? No. No. Because we got that off. Because Yeah. the minute I saw what a mess she'd made Oh. of the engagement ring. She had about three tries, nicks! Ridiculous int it! Ah! You were lucky they ne And I said I think I think you'll get my wedding off without cutting it. So, she got a bit more soft soap all that so Ka , er Madge Mm? What is it? Er you'll you'll make it rough, like. What is it? And er , it's my Oh! microphone. Ooh! And er Oh and you, you were saying you I got the you're doing it Yeah. while we Oh Yeah. heck! I didn't realise that! Well that's the best thing,yo you shouldn't er you don't have to be aware. Oh! You ought to have told me! Well just And er said anything! So they got my wedding ring off, but I still can't get it on. How awful! But they erm it's really Mind you, it's still Mind you , it's not swollen. It's Yeah , it's still swollen. you Yes. just down there. Oh it'll be a But er long time. You know when yours when was swollen er Mind you, that's where I forget I, I know my fingers look like black puddings! Ooh mine look terrible! Yeah. , you know, I thought ooh I couldn't always swi , I couldn't even switch a light till No. last week! You couldn't? No. But er No. since you done it we've been looking in jewellers' shops when I go, I go up town twice a week with her, you know, carry all the bags, and er we're looking in the jewellers' shop and some old, some lady stood there and, she were looking I says, come on they don't wear marriage ri , wedding rings there! You ought to have seen the old girl! No, but cos there there, it feels a bit bit funny! Does it? Cos then there's nothing Yeah. that you know, no circulation there. Yeah. Ah! Ah! In that side of my thumb. It's cold. It's cold. Just outside of my thumb. In your thumb. It's different from that side. Ah! Just that bit. Perhaps I forget, you see. Yeah, turn it straight like this. Right. Mm. Now can you do this? You should keep rubbing it. Lo look, like that? No! Not twist that look, sidewards, that way, that way, that way. Mm. No. You can't can you? No I can't do that. No, not do that. Well the time's young yet, you know for any anything like that. Yeah, oh it is really. That's it. Oh aye, it'll take Yes. a long time to Mm. er Oh I can I don't carry two cups I ca , daren't carry a cup and saucer No. in that hand. No. And one in the other. Ooh no! No. No. I daren't er No. But our, our But I can I can Tom, how on earth she will been round all of these, do you know I've, I'm like this I know! well after he's been all this while. I told, I told her time! Yes, but half the time you've got library books as well. We go in the town, I'm in the hairdresser Yes but you won't and I say we're going, getting shopping only fruit and veg in the market then he comes back with about four big library books! Well they weigh a ton, so So Yes, anyway Eve, but listen, when you've been out with me on a Monday I've said to you you've only had a cauliflower and yo apples there. Put it in there and . That was a good morning's work really. Got the shopping done for the next fortnight. Got a few more voices on for the tape. Why I had my dinner, I haven't got the same as you. Oh! I had that meat that you You've got didn't like, yesterday and some rice. You've got chicken fricassee I suppose. No! You've got shepherd's pie. I can see, well that meat wasn't as good as it used to usually get No I I ge , there was lump o And yet it was left and I cut it up this morning before you got up and I couldn't cut it with the scissors! So I've, I I did some rice and ha had it, but might just as well have thrown it away. So I made you, I'd got Mm. some other beef. What's that like? Yeah! That's alright is it? Mm. Eh! Guess who rang while you were out in Mm. the garden? Joan. George. Ah! I said, oh, we were only talking about you yesterday . What's he say? He says he's feeling a lot better and he's back on the road. Mm. So I shouldn't think he's been driving for some time and No. he's back from Catherine's. Is he coming? I sa I said erm well, how about coming for lunch one day? Oh! He said, yes, I will do. He said erm I ca , I can't make arrangements much in advance because I never know how I'm feeling. Mm. He seems to me, a bit like Joan doesn't it? Yeah it probably is with the trauma of losing his wife. So er anyway Yeah. he sa he said I'll keep in touch. Yeah well he's been looking after her for, for years ain't he? Mm. So e e , he said I'll keep in touch. And I said, oh well if I don't hear from you I'll ring you again and perhaps we can arrange something. So er, he was going to Did you, so you didn't tell him I'd like him to see my paintings? Well I What else did George say apart from the fact will he come and see the paintings do you think? Mm! Yes, he said erm he'll keep in touch now, he's feeling better and erm he was going friendship ha toni this afternoon and he was taking a an lady from across the road so he's . He'll still run his car then. Yes. He said he's back on the road so presumably he's erm Not been driving. No. Well probably in his sa state Mm. of health he didn't license the car. Just go and get the other . At least we've poured your tea and a have you? Is that better? I think we did a good morning's work then. Yeah. Well I think being outside in the garden and cleaning Mm. the car perhaps helped your cold a bit, do you think? Possibly. Have another dose of that erm Mm. buttercup syrup. What's it got in? I don't know, but it's good. The big the big pigeons down look. Mm. Ooh it's a lovely day today. Mm. I think we did well to wait until now do you? Mm mm! So, I'll be alright to go to the hairdresser myself in the morning. No you won't. Oh yes I will! I was alright this morning. I haven't got anything Yeah. to carry. So, I'm going on my own tomorrow. Well Well you you can do a bit of taping of those records. you got the man to help you on with your coat. There's nothing . Italian, Canadian There was two big ones, look! There was three there the other day. I thought you said you were going easy on that seed? Mm. That's the old seed they're taken there Well that doesn't I know! But you didn't buy that till Tuesday! It's only Thursday now! It'll last till Monday. Well you didn't want them sitting till dark then go off did you? Well you, put about ten piles out! Well if there's three er nations thrown into one, how did they get here? Two nations! Italian, Canadian, and they're British. I didn't say that was a British. I don't know what nationality is that. Well Canadian you know might have been that his father was in the Canadian army in the war. Well his brother's in the army. Anyway When I was a lad a man went in the ar , he hooked up with the army if he'd got no trade and no hope Oh! of a job Well they won't have them now will they? Or if he'd, er been thieving. They won't have those sort in I mean, look, they wouldn't have Robert in would they? I mean, he hadn't really got any educational qualifications and No. then they said he was a bit too thin, not, not so Robust enough. robust enough. Another pigeon come in. I told you there's three! Oh! We don't want a colony of those. I shall have it . Have a drop of that I'm going to have some more of that medicine. Said three times a day. Are you going to have a dose now? Mm. When I haven't got my dinner down. Do you want any more? No. .Finish erm I think I'll have an orange to finish off my Mm. What do you make of this play do you think? Well well it's an old thing i it's they've raked old Oh well they always do rake old things back. stir the mud up don't they? I've not read the paper anyway yet. I think they want to sell the papers on Saturday. I don't think people buy it so much on have you seen, they're going to give you a weeks' television Yeah. Oh that's good. programmes, look. You've just turned it over. I can you turned two pages over. Look. What's the idea? So they sell more papers on Saturday. I don't think they sell so many. Where? No, the next page. Mm mm. I saw you as you turned some over. How have we done? No! How would you feel ? Bloody rough! But they don't come back again. Especially with this er aids thing. There! Free seven day T V guide, there are. Especially with this aid business. Eh? You don't know who else he's been with do you? Normally, you know where your husband's been but if the husband's away and you go in you don't know where he's been do you? Mm. If I were a girl I wouldn't let a man go near me! Mm. Alright. Maxwell's son loses a thousand a minute on roulette! I see. Must have some money then. No you're hurting me! Stop! Yeah. Do you want half this orange? Mm. Cut me a slice They're big ones. if you like. It it soothes your throat. It's soothing my throat. I don't mean, no. That's alright innit? Well I always thought the paper was better because you have to,sa so many things don't you? Mind you, they did have all the satellite and all that didn't we? You seen all these page they done? It's not the paper it was. joints, and muscle . And what does it say about your shoulder? Oh look! You could put it straight down. Well we've got the Radio Times in the other room. They made a bloody good start without putting in ink! I know that one about today's news. We've got a Radio Times! Yeah, you , well you can see these all in one go. Clint Eastwood nine forty . I'm not sitting up to that. Twenty to ten. I know, but it'll be midnight before it finishes won't it? Are they all gone er are they all gone? No, the big ones are still there. Did you speak to Jackie, did you say? No, I, I Or, oh! was in the dressing room and Arabian Nights, two o'clock . Oh we've missed that! It's three o'clock now. I liked Kath's hall didn't you? You liked what? Kath's hall. Yo, yeah but Unusual wasn't it, how he'd done it! It's the same place though int it when er Well Is there anything any good on? Only the Arabian Nights at two and that's gone. Well I don't like those things. And then there's Cli , Clint Eastwood at twenty to ten. Nothing in between? No. Well, the garden certainly looks better for your little clear up Well it looks doesn't it? looks tidier doesn't it? Well I don't think you'd done it since Christmas had you? Since Christmas, aye. Dad's Army at eight . That's on the satellite. Comedy channel. Mm. Wasn't very good last week, really was it? No. They're all grown now ain't they? Mm. The Tom doctor said he'd got a collar on his neck again didn't he? Mm. I meant to ask him and erm well I got er interrupted. It was in there when we went? Madge was cleaning the windows! Mm. Er, with a broken arm. She hadn't got a broken arm. Well she did have. That was years ago! I know! But it was that the arm she were using. I expect so. It was the right that she broke. Lord! I think that's, that's a fire down there! Fire smoke isn't it? Yeah, perhaps burning er winter rubbish. Card boxes and things. But they make dustbins big enough now int it? Now, yes. I mean there's no, no, no smoke Mm. on this end so it must be. You haven't drunk your beer. It looks, have you swi switched, it is switched on, what you doing? Oh it is oh! Press that black button. in here. Aren't you too hot? Yes I am. Switch Ooh! it off now then. I've switched it on. Er er, I mean switch that. Oh! I think that er a bit of fresh air might have done me good do you? I think that butter What the buttercup mixture? this morning. You think it do you want another dose? Go and clear my throat Er no it's not, it's not time yet. See if, my throat feels dry. Coughing bad this morning weren't I? Mm. Well you oh it says if you have a dose last thing at night it helps you sleep. This er ? It might. Madge? Yes. Oh has she been taking it then? Well she sa says it's the best that she's had lately. Does she take it regular? Yes. Although I've heard of it before. They were new just before Christmas! Oh! The colour seems to come out of there don't it? I don't mind them that colour really. No, it's alright. If you get them too red You don't see them do you? er,i it's dar , too, they're too dark. Oh, that's how I feel now! Kath's carpet keeps well doesn't it? I meant to ask her if she'd got a Vax machine because And they don't take their shoes off when they go in, cos we saw them go in didn't Mm. we? I mean er Where did they go, in the village? I mean that carpet was at the other house. She's had it ever since she's been in that house. Where did they go, to the village shops? No. They went to Tesco on Burnham Leas You never go there do you? No. Well it's you don't like going that district do you? Anyway, I never did like Tescos much as Sainsburys. Sa , Sainsburys a very good name! Well I think Tesco have gone up-market from what they were years ago. But erm Kath's little vase. I think it's terrible but She , no she said,oh I like the little vase you brought me ! I said, we haven't brought it to for you. Oh! And yet the er vase, don't even collect do they? No. Oh well we didn't want to sell them anyway. Not really, no. They'd just go right in our edge o , end of that shelf I think. Ooh ooh ooh ooh! Oh! Don't be rude! Ooh ooh ooh ooh ooh! Arthur! That's not ! Hey? Well don't they do it? No! It's about time you finished that beer. I should think it's flat by now! Ooh it is hot in here! Well you're not drinking it! Have you had that fire on full while Mm. I've been in here? Yes. Mhm. You're Ooh! not drinking out of somebody elses' glass are you? Well you don't in pubs do you? Do you remember that one coming back from Hinkley and the butter was on the . Mm. We had a Yes. and a buttered cob. Vince's new car looks nice don't it? Looks in good condition. What does? Vince's new car. Oh! Not bad. But how many's that they had, nine? And she said er it's only a lady owner and she knew her and, who lived in Burston, lived not far away so Well it's cos the lady owner cos they keep ja , jamming the gears and everything! Mm. So? Mind you, they look real don't they? Mm. About a hundred miles. Mm. Fancy that farm not having any egg boxes for the eggs! Yeah. I mean a , I've been throwing mine away now we can't get them at the other farm, I mean and I said if we do, we'd better keep Ke them and take some in the car. I mean, we, we couldn't have carried them Well I said it, told you to get some just to put them in the garage when it's hot. Well I always buy them in boxes now. Well I wouldn't keep them in the garage anyway. It's cool out there. I've got to find somewhere to put all that sugar. Up in the loft, on a tread board. No. Under the boxes. No. I might get some more seville oranges next week and make another lot. Ah ah ah ah ah ah ah ah ah ! Tt! Don't be silly! It was a bad night last night. You did? Didn't think you did. I never heard you. And got a raw chest and that. Have you looked in the programmes for tonight? No, I haven't Where is got oh here it is! I told you the films didn't I, er earlier? No. They were this afternoon's. Or Eas er,Eas fro , who is it on? Eastwood. It is Eastwood. Ooh! Have you seen What? Allied campaigning the Gulf War nine thirty . No. Nine forty the film. That's on till eleven thirty That's the Eas Eastwood one. Yes, that's that's it? Thunderbolt something What's it called? Thunderbolt and Lightwood. What time is that? Nine forty till eleven Yeah. thirty. No, that's too late. Oh no. Not much on is there really, today? No. Well there's Dad's Army at eight. Mm. In er Perpetual Motion about the in Shackleton Who's he? Not who! What! Story of the defunct Shackleton Plain front line of Britain's defence. Ooh! That, that one, King of the Wind that boy's love for a sa er well stallion, you said you wanted to see that when it was on the other day. Do you want to see it? Six fifteen. Can if you want. We can have it. It's been on several days recently. I know , but you, last time it was on you said, ooh I wouldn't have minded seeing that. I've not finished reading the morning paper yet. Candid Camera, six thirty. Eve, would you say you were going somewhere? Cos I want No. Oh. Squinty eye there. Look at his nose! Mm! There's Andrew look. today bit fatuous It's rare for a wife to go on holiday with a male friend . I shouldn't have thought it possible . a male there. Have you read about that boy who's his Ah yeah. arms chopped off? Did they sew them back? Well, they're trying but they're not sure whether they will be successful. I should like something nice? Do you? Drink? Oh yeah. Well you've still got your beer haven't you? I drank it. What, what made Les er lend you the records to tape? I dunno. Well he he'd got a, and if I'd got to do it you know, another day, his er perhaps start and er i , well you know when he came for a meal and saw all that? Mm. He said then I've got a lot of tapes you know, says sit in here Oh well. and do them all, pick out what you want. Or Oh! all of them, you know. And er then er No, put it there. No you put it there ! Oh! What's this in aid of? No you don't. It won't reach. It won't reach! Yeah , it will. Well anyway ,th they're good ones aren't they? It'll give us a comprehensive selection. Won't it? Yeah. Don't think we'll ne need to buy any more re , well records do you? I shouldn't think so. That's why I wanted to start them so I gave them back to him. Cos, they're at risk Well he said while you've got them anyway. Well he said we can keep them as long as I know, but you might fall over them, drop one. No! You won't. But er anywa , the there's about another thirty seconds on the tape, what would you do? Just run it off. Well you could put the other si , side Yeah. on. Put the other side on. int it? Put the other side on and then get a new tape ready ready to er Well you couldn't have anybody more careful than me could you? No. Oh no. You do take care of them. There's your hanky. I think they've taken care of them. They don't seem to be scratched do they? Well do don't look as if they've been used does it? Well she said they only have them on er Perhaps they don't like er Christmas time. Yeah. Probably look at the television all the time. Got a bit of dust on Is that the there. other The needle's picking the dust up. Is that the other side. Yeah. Now we've gotta see what we got on there. Well just, finish that tape off with it. Look, we got that bit there. Yeah, well finish the tape off and then a new one ready Yeah. to put straight in. Er I mean for this market research one, we ought to finish this tonight because if she comes tomorrow Which one? This tape that's in this erm this market research tape. Which one, market research? This is, this one! That we're recording for that lady! We've got Oh yeah. to finish this tape because she were coming tomorrow for it! So she wants some music does she? No! She doesn't want the music! What are you doing with it then? You started it! What you doing? . I thought they were helping you to do that. Well take it off then! I'll take this off then! Yeah well how do you do this? Couldn't you have left well alone! That's okay. Got a good selection haven't they? They, they are very good they are. Do you hear that . Well you always wanted a piano. Yeah. According your that is. And I wanted, I wanted Conways. I thought you were going to put that low so that if so that if this did pick it up er it didn't make any difference. Mm. You sit in there. Don't sit on there. I wish I could er well don't, don't you know, that's a record case there! Well we always clean, the carpet's clean! What when people walk in dirt? No! And you go out and you ca That's finished anyway. Have you got another tape ready. I can do, I think, stop it. How many more have you got left from the Christmas box tapes? Two, four two or four I should think. This one here, I think that's been play , that's been played on. I told you to keep the new ones separate. You'll get them all mixed up! See how it goes. They are. Oh. Good! Oh! What's that? Nothing. Baker Conway, he's is a we wanted one of his things. Yes. And you got him now for nothing. I think he went on a liner. Well he did! And then Well all of his and erm one of them lost th use of his fingers. It wasn't when they I think that was him. Probably was. I wish I'd have carried on with piano lessons. But then we used to se Your mum must have read that little finger. Then we used to sniff, you know, and Mrs come and knocked on the front door says er, our house is asleep do you mind not playing, you know. Cos er there were only four and a half inch divide in brick walls. Mm. Yeah! Mm. So I mean not double. These er, these mi might be the same, but you can't expect to have to stop sound going through a four and a half inch wall can you? We had a piano but nobody Mm. ever complained about us practising. Well, you got good neighbours then, that's all I can say. She came and knocked on the door and then we went back and I, I said what you stopped for? I says er, so I said, started playing ten minutes, she couldn't have got up the stairs and were back again! Mm! Asking us to stop. So that was it. That ended the first on my piano. I mean, you can't practise piano if people next door complain can you? Can you? Well I mean er Well most people did have pianos and er practised. Well, you know when I used to come to you walk across cos of the trams, Christmas day, all down Argyle Street every a a ev , they were bulging you know! Mm. But sometimes the door was open and they'd do it all out the front doors like this a and fresh, fresh people trying to get in. And th the pianos were going full blast! Well I told you Gordon brought his drums to our house Well one Christmas! well must have been different neighbours to my day ! You know, because we'd got a piano, he'd got a drum set for Christmas. He was about seventeen or eighteen then. I thought you said A it was nearly finished? The tape's still running. It's about finished now. This is. Sh shall I put another tape in for the rest of it? Yes, that's what I said, put a new tape in. You might have got it ready for me! I told you to get th ta , one ready! Well, still haven't got it. These have been undone though haven't they? Well I don't know. Well there's no wrapping. Well they're about to , five in a, in a big wrapper that's why they're lose. Side A. But I mean there's two at the back with individual wrappers. Mm. I don't know. Look! Well i , you're, you're the How much of these two do I expert on that. want to do? There's nothing on the . No. Well side, How much do you have? Do you wish you could go back to the good old days? No. You don't? No. Why? The wa Just making sure. The way you carried your shoes in a brown paper bag and when you were at ours. When you When you're dancing? when you were going out and the had stopped and all the girls had a you know, the ordinary paper bag with a got their shoes in there. Oh I know! I remember. They never change their shoes though now No. do they? Anyway, they all have taxis now. Yeah. True. Oh, we know this one don't we? Mm. Oh! I was always annoyed though, Phil and George were magnificent dancers and the chap I used to walk out with sometimes he er he'd he he used say now that I look like this! He used to dance like that. Behind his back, like this. He wasn't, I wasn't in it, you know, something like that. Well, you danced well when we went to . I could do park parade tha , a girl was, er er anywa , I went in the factory and one of the girls says they were saying about a dance, says ooh I quite a few you ought to see him dance the park parade! Course, I'd been to Cecille's, half a crown for an hour. Every Saturday. I went there for lessons. Did you? And er she walked on front of there were twenty of us in two rows I know how I, she walked on front doing the steps and she says I'm going to walk wi , with my back so I'm going to listen says, ooh! There's one there he he missed the step. And I said, it was m , I was called out you know a pa , a partner like I said it was Lesley! But he said no, no, no ! Oh! And then We know this one don't we? in Rushden I er see to all the girls dancing, you know, like a like you, when you were young. And I went, would she take, he says yes er half, I say, half a crown er a, for half an hour every Friday. But er I dunno er some other pe they, I always felt such a fool, you know! And they were looking at me and I thought this int my cup of tea! Turn it down a bit.. Well that's what they want to hear. I know this . I know this one. The rain in spain felt mainly on the rain! That's not the right phrase ! Mainly on the plane. The plane. Well that's er I keep getting that. Ooh I love ! Won't you just sit down! Well I keep getting up. This is a bit boring, you know,sort of jumping. Well , just sit down then! Sit down! It's a bit too loud. That's better. Where did you start dancing? I told you! I went to Cecille's. Well we would have had at school. Did you go to any church dances? We went to St. No. Pace I think it was and er i What in Grandon Street? No. That church near you, er the Imperial up Spinney Park that way. Oh no, I don't know any churches round here. Anyway, er there was er the floor was six inch three inch floor boards and they'd been danced and da They'd just put chalk down didn't they? and the nuts, yeah Yeah. they used to go out sprin and the nuts'd come above the wood. Yeah , I do know, yeah. You know. And they used to sprinkle some fresh Chalk. chalk all over. Mm! I'm pleased we've got this record now! Yeah! Aren't you? Been trying everywhere to get one didn't we? Mm. Beats all the re rock and roll don't it, really? Mm. Although, they've got some surprisingly Yes. modern ones Modern, yeah. in theirs. Di , was Madge a good dancer? No, I don't think Madge and Tom would dance much. What about Kathleen? Mm. I don't think they went all that much. Well she was young in them day anyway,an the war came along didn't it? Yes but Where's your reading glasses? You've not had them all day! No. Where are they? Down there. I know , but I couldn't see them though. I can read without them. I don't really need them. I know you can , but you're squinting. Well only, look here! You say that, look at that, can you see anything in there between the two? Yes, those lines. No. You gotta see the two dish the space in between. Yes! I can see them. I can see it. Whe where? I can see it. But, there's a all you can see is a little bright spot Mm. well that ain't the space. If you tilt it like, can just see it in her mouth, sixteenth between the two. Is it nearly finished? Yeah, it means there's ha , it's played half, another half to go. Oh. What else you going to have to eat tonight? Oh I don't want anything more. Coffee? I could do. Do you want some cake with it? No, it's I've had enough cake. Or my flapjack? Oh . You don't, you've not tasted one! They're lovely! I'll have one tomorrow, I I've look if you're full, you're full! You don't want an obese good brown sugar and butter. you don't want an obese husband do you? I don't know. I think you're getting a bit fat round the middle now! Well that's what I thought. Trousers are Well Tom is! my trousers are getting too tight! Ooh! That reminds me when I go in town tomorrow I'm going to take one of yours. Mm. To get done. Those navy ones they're the tightest aren't Mm. they? That navy pair? And they were Yeah. expensive!they were! Well if you're not going to have anything else to eat you better have some medicine. Yes. Get rid of my cough cos it Do you want, do you want some more now? it's a dry cough int it? I'll get it. Do you want me to meet you tomorrow or anything? What about No. all the library books? No, they're not due back yet. Did you want me to meet you or anything? No. I shall be alright. I've got the, the shopping all that lot today. Can you undo it? My hand's still not, not much use. Look, don't spill it! Will you ha will you have some? Not now , I've just had some. Cos I've still got a bit of a throat and it said for sore throats too if you want. Mind! You're spilling it! Well you so are you! If you get it on there. I should have had a It soothes doesn't it? wash your hands. Don't you think so? I know what to do! Bring me a hot towel and a ! Ooh! You'll be lucky! Don't go down the mine No. Look! daddy! Don't go down tonight. Well this isn't it. What is his name? Erm Used to be a tearjerker. Then it was the boy stood on the burning decks. Oh! Shut up! That was another one. Now tomorrow , all I've got to get is meat. And you know for your dinner Mm. will you have that shepherd's pie? Mm. I don't know what I want. It's got to be got rid of I suppose int it? Well er, I made a big one. Unless we put it out for the cat. You cheeky thing! For the birds, more like. There were two cock blackbirds this morning. No, will you have, you're not very keen on fish. So I'll get a bit of fish for myself. I think that's putting it mildly! What? You remember in France, the er they made you where we kept walking round the table and er she sa , anyway said er fish soup? And you said yes. And he turned to me I said not likely! She says, why? I said cos it's smells the place ! He he er, he he got a bit humpy! I don't like the bouillabaisse. Well that's no. Although, at that place it was alright but Mm. it's not one of my favourite ones. What was your favourite? What is my favourite? Mm. I don't know. It still is then, I suppose, by that. Well it What was, means the past but is, means the present. You can tell you made reminiscent with your slang What, and I were brought up in church? How did they expect them to talk down there? We used to say are you gorrit ? Well you needn't put it on there You don't, you don't hear that now do you? Well don't put it on there! You do in some parts of Leicester. Do you? Listen to me! Well it soon be spring now, I suppose. Well we're getting to the Operation dig up! It won't! We've got all the bulbs to come up fo , yet. Mm. They're a bit hesitant at the moment. No they're not! They're shooting through. This side's not as good as the other one is it? No. That's more gen gentle innit? That's waltz. I think that Welsh dresser looks better without that teapot on it now. Well i i li It didn't really go with the rest of it did it? what you win at darts at the fair int it ? No. No. But I mean it didn't really go with the rest of the things. Well no, well he said that but Yes. Only worth ten pounds then. Yeah. Somebody else'll have it ti , ten years time. Bottle of whisky. What does Bill do now, these days, do you reckon then? We don't know a Bill. Has he found any , no yours er Martin's then. Martin's boy? I don't know. He didn't seem to Well he's got his allotment and he helps Tina doesn't he? That's not much of an allotment now is it though? No, but he I think the garden is old. Yeah. Although, somebody said they thought he might er, give it up this year. Mm. I wonder what George's garden like? Who George ? Mm. Ooh! Don't you remember once we went round, he'd got a lovely garden! And then went and it was all overgrown Yeah. And then the next time, a few years later he'd got it back Mm. he'd got it nice. Oh yeah. Didn't he have a railway running a model Around. railway? Yes. A ste , little steam loco? But, I expect erm as he was in all last year I should think he He didn't bother. let it go. I mean, Catherine said Mm. was suffering from that operations so Yeah. and I bi , you know that big loft I helped get the, get the la big lathe he bought from the Mm. firm. Well he'd got a, the little marker,th well about two and a half feet marker. I says, er don't you use that now? He said, no. I said, you ever thought of selling it? He says, well no, not really. He says I'll er do it up I think an , what he did he painted it you see. Well we went over two or three weeks later and happened to mention it he wanted two hundred pound for it! Well you could had it. Well no it's he didn't give two hundred pound for it, and he'd had it eight or ten years. Anyway, I've no use to Well I think he's getting back into circulation now. Wi with ringing me Yes. er up today. And he was going to this er Mm. apparently, a friendship meeting or something, for elderly people in the village. And he was giving a lady across the road a lift there. So cos apparently, while he was on the phone she came knocking at the door then Mm. and he said, well wait a minute while I answer the door. And er he apparently told her to sit in the car while he finished his Mm. conversation with me on the phone. Did he You were in the garden so I couldn't Yeah. fetch you. Will he marry again? No! No! Old Kath said he did didn't she? No. It was about fours years. And I, and Ma , and I was saying about Ma , you know,Ma , happened to say Madge, you know, and er er, you know we said that th , that I weren't going out. And he says, oh well er something now, I forget, what was it? Oh he said, she, she Well Kath was a very I should think she's being very ge ge er er, er given her a lot yo yo you know. Wha what he's done and what, you know. And I nearly said, but I didn't, I I I could have said, well, look what she got er out of her her husband. You know, those . Mm. You know, she never mentioned that, yet she mentioned what Vince were doing now. I mean, fair's fair int it? Still Yes, but Kath is a sort of er very Up and down with No , loving person isn't Yeah. she? I mean, a very fussy person, she likes somebody to fuss over. And er, he seems Never fussed over me when I've been in her vicinity! Yeah cos you're , you're my husband, you're not her! The English, English and not American English or German English and er this part of a massive project been undertaken from the British Isles, in Suffolk it's already been to Thomas More's High School to report in lessons, here a, he decided to use the highway facility I also welcome, erm two of those staff into our proceedings, people from the area and also of course from Brandon, I hope you enjoyed this morning's agenda. Can I have your approval please for confirmation of the minutes paper T six five eight? Agree The agenda item number two is Lori Nothing really to add Chairman to the agenda item of just to point out to members that the promised report on the lorry management plan which is in the first preparation has been put back to the January committee meeting on the Highways Committee so that we can get full advantage from the traffic and seminar which is to be held a week on Saturday in Ipswich from which we hope will er quite a bit by a way of input to the forthcoming lorry management plan, thank you. Thank you sir, er move along please to agenda item number three which is the revised estimates paper please T six five nine there you are. All committees are receiving reports on this way on their, their revised estimate for nineteen ninety two three and the nineteen ninety three four budget, as stated in section one of the report these are compiled to comply to the revenue guidelines issued to each Service Committee by the Policy Committee in September. Section two, there was a revised estimate for nineteen ninety two ninety three and there are two main points to mention, firstly members will see that the revised estimates in total are less than the original estimates and this is because affording interest rates have made it cheaper to service the outstanding debt from previous years' capital programmes. Secondly the allowance for inflation was based on a three per cent price increase and because of the very competitive nature of the prices we receive for maintenance work a sum of two hundred and seventy thousand pounds can be carried forward into next year from this allowance, in other words the real purchasing power of the budget have been maintained and two hundred and seventy thousand pounds can be put aside to stand in the future. Section three deals with the nineteen ninety three ninety four revenue budget, the main points for this year are that a similar saving on inflation in excess of two hundred thousand pounds can be put towards the extra items of expenditure listed in paragraph three point four, that will fall to the committee's budget in nineteen ninety three ninety four, in addition the savings generated by the renegotiated electricity maintenance contracts contributes another eighty two thousand pounds, this leaves some two hundred and thirty thousand pounds of the extra commitments still to be financed. Paragraph three point seven describe in some detail with a figure of five hundred and fifty thousand pounds will become available in nine nineteen ninety three ninety four, when the rules change on the financing of structural maintenance on Principal Road, this sum would be enough to cover the two hundred and thirty thousand pound short that we mentioned previously has to cover the loan charges to sustain the same level of capital programme on schemes not aided by transport supplementary branch in nineteen ninety three four, as is currently being spent in this year. The use of this five hundred and fifty thousand pounds is conditional on the Policy Committee's approval and the decision on this will be taken in January nineteen ninety three when the final standard spending assessment was known to the County Council, Chairman the recommendations I can claim reception for and the detailed budget claimants are attached to the pending here. Yes thank you, a few things from our point of view is er three point eight, I'm sure the policy will be well looked over by our friend, comments by members have to make please. Mr Shall I stand? Why not, yes Yes I'm used to it Right Erm, on appendix B, erm there is an item which erm members of the committee erm will know about very well it's the laboratory services that we give and have a great relate to them, erm the item goes under seven I believe, the figures there have dropped, is that because we'd had a successful income erm there, we've got a hundred and ten thousand for both up ninety two and ninety three and ninety, sorry ninety two three and ninety three ninety four, is it that er, could we know or are we estimating that we're going to get a nice income because we have been told in earlier reports that this is quite a good slice of income to us and those figures are amended accordingly is that right? The, the predicted turnover for ninety three ninety four is slightly down on the ninety two three to the said market conditions. But have we got income as a result of the, the work the laboratories do? The income er, the laboratory you can see last year ma made a surfeit of seventy five thousand pounds, the budgetary purchases we always assume the laboratory will simply cover its expenditure, in reality we hope they will be slightly better than that and they generally do. Chairman I'm sure that the Policy Committee will take note of er your erm remarks er and indeed will be pleased to see the satisfactory er, operation of the Highways Department er in the current year, erm, sometimes we get some better news than others and of course the, the fact that the interest rates have er fallen has considerably er, erm assisted the Highways Department as indeed have the er very competitive prices which have been received for er, er constructional works. I really would like to comment further, but I'm not able so to do er we have all heard the autumn statement er from the Chancellor of the Exchequer last week, following on from that we expect to receive the draft standard spending assessment for Suffolk on or about the twenty sixth of this month, er and it really is, will be er when we have that indication that er Policy Committee will give to er, pull together the strings for the preparation of next year's budget. Thank you. And of course you won't proceed in the of course until December so at least still very much up in the air, but certainly the estimates of the current year are produced of highly any other comments? Yes Mrs Thank you Chairman, on the recommendation four one three erm it says the same standard of service erm I imagine that's the minimum of exceptional level of service, I mean it's sad that no longer do we ever talk about say any comments? If not can we accept the recommendation of read out four one etcetera, all agreed? Mm Before we move on to the next agenda, could we find some more seats for the people, six more chairs, get them together, say if you want to stand. Chairman, while you're out of Can we then move on please to agenda number four Okay, thank you John. This report highlights the main issues which will affect this committee in the period during nineteen ninety three and nineteen ninety six, section one repeats the desire of the committee that it would like as a minimum to sustain the whole of the revenue service and the similar volume of capital payments in the period of the medium term plan as is being divided in this year. Section two describes the two factors which will need pronouncing in this period to achieve this objective, these are the usual annual commitments and the need under the present rules laid down by Policy Committee to commence from the highways project, the loan charges on the capital expenditure over and above the figure included in the transport supplementary grant settlement, that is the two point seven million pound figure in paragraph two one B. The service power to view panelled view was that the three point nine million pounds was effectively a minimum exceptionable level and it was within this figure they required the one point six million on minor works and footways to be increased to two million pounds for nineteen ninety three ninety four, section three concludes that it will not be appropriate to attempt to finance these extra loan charges on a continuing basis on the fixed revenue budget, as they would each year and on an accum accumulative basis consume some three hundred and fifty thousand pounds. This would therefore reduce the amount available for revenue maintenance works. Section four sets out additional areas that the service party and view panel regarded as pressure points on our existing budget and to which any additional sources would be applied if they were received. The recommendations are contained in section five and five one C effectively impress the assistance of Policy Committee in addressing the need to sustain at least the current level of spending of three point nine million on these small but vital schemes throughout the period of the medium term plan. That's quite a Chairman I, I, I am and some of my colleagues a little confused on this paper, erm and I really ask that I, I understood that when we discussed this last, erm that the, the minor work which was one, one debated, erm was going to be increased to two million and that two million er, two million spend was going to come out of the existing budget, I'm not quite sure from this whether it is or it isn't, could you explain? The er, yes the er panel we, we discussed this and we, the appendix say, actually shows the current level of service being provided in ninety two three, which forms the minimum of the ceiling of the three point nine million. When the service review panel meets in February after the budget decisions that have been made, after T S G settled is known, that then panel will really decide the ninety three four category programme and quite clearly two million pound will have to be inserted at that stage for demand of the Are you talking about inserted or added? Erm, inserted at the moment, added if we, its, its various other decisions come about if improved our capital, er capital prospects. I'm still confused Chairman can you help me? Chairman of the panel recommended an increase in expenditure on this item of work next year, an increase in one point six million pounds to two million pounds, we can't say categorically that, that will happen until we've had our allocations both sanctions borrowing for, for next year, it is a wish of interest of hands make clear in the comments on appendix A in this paper against the figure of one points being aroused that the panel seeks to make that two million pounds, subject to the appropriate level of grants and borrow approvals and perhaps some assistance from within our own resources and elsewhere being budget, this is a, a firm intention to increase that figure, but we cannot say it has been increased yet, to do so will be premature, but that I ask the committee to accept it this morning as a recommendation from the panel, it will then go as a figure, two million pounds in the budget decide I'm still confused sorry, I'm working from is that until we get the final figures, final settlements it's very difficult for them to, to put actual the budget figures, but we can still actually come back at those in February and find what the panel wanted doesn't that count, should the Highway Committee itself wish that to happen. Thank you Councillor. I'm sure But erm, in effect we're talking about a minimum figure aren't we of one one six? One one six, that's, that's what it was, but we're actually saying that's increased to two million in ninety three ninety four. Yeah Chairman All this, all this very much depends Chairman on the er T S G settlement and the A C Gs, what's an A C G? Er approved credit guideline That's it an approved credit guideline and er that is the problem at the moment that the approved er credit guideline for the non T S G schemes is really insufficient and is having to be propped up er from elsewhere within the budget, your Chairman yesterday met with the er gentleman er the suited gentleman from Bedford and, and er having er given them appropriate cups of coffee er, impressed upon them that the er the one point two was really insufficient for one or two million er, er credit approvals was really insufficient for the needs of Suffolk and er they went away did they not Chairman saying that they er appreciated the point whether you had success or not or perhaps to er wait until December? Chairman That's how far as they would actually go, at yesterday's meeting, but er I thought that in Civil Service er terminology that was er Mr sorry do say, do say Yeah, yeah, I'm, none the less we have got the comments of three, three in front of us and we see that the accumulate effect was going to be dangerous in the extreme if the money is not forthcoming Yes, yes and erm, it is therefore in those circumstances foolhardy in my opinion to carry on with the British Assessment Programme at the present rate when the effects on our roads are likely to be so drastic Yeah and it's quite simple er at the government level to be a capital approval between those two headings Yeah and er it must be borne in upon them that the alternative for us are not having money to keep up our roads programme is going to be very dangerous therefore I think there is no question that the recent test programme is the second priority for concern. For in fact I, as I said I'm glad you made that point, it does press upon the er people in Bedford yesterday, in as not as well as that, that there's, there's point in that er, there was some because of that though upon this I do assure you Thank you very much If I can take any other comments members wish to make on Yeah I Sorry I understand the confusion of going, of going through to but there's very well confused about the increase er regarded that when your foot, footways forward, cos I think that's been er, been very essential really the standard of footpaths in charge of the roads and areas these day and er to spend money on that with great, great move. Yes improvers list in this area of our services, have for, have widespread support for can I then ask you to approve the as laid out and er having marked Mrs card in terms of, of desires whether it is, thank you very much indeed. Take it on our piece of paper T six six one we draw breath here, are you ready to go? Yes Mr Chairman Right off you go. Er this report sets out the approval of the committee a revised summary service plan that would ultimately be included in the medium term plan document, that will be issued in March nineteen ninety three. The changes in the summary service plan in the previous meeting approved by this committee in June are highlighted in section two, Mr and Mr will answer any questions on this aspect. Section three is a consolidated bid equating to the three per cent revenue development requested by Thomason Committee, and all committees earlier this year. Appendix B has been assembled by using the various assumptions contained in paragraph three four two. In essence whereas the submission in June exceeded the three per cent limit, this revision now falls within the guideline, this is partly due to the use of the savings in the nineteen ninety three ninety four budget exercise and the reduce to be for the capital enhancement. The assumption is made the Policy Committee will allow the five hundred and fifty thousand mentioned in the budget before to be retained within the high rate budget. If this happens some two hundred and nineteen thousand will be available within the medium term plan period, if the three per cent was allowed to contribute towards the items listed in Appendix B, previous paper, Chairman the recommendations are contained in Section B. Chairman I'd just like to vote this man's attention for one brief minute on Appendix A, er the situation analyses from the work that will go into the Highways Committee service plan. First of all paragraph one point two, er just pointing out that our members who already reminded, but our customers are not just the residents of Suffolk, but those who actually use the trunk and the county road in in Suffolk and that's the important difference, and probably treble the, the customer base with the highway service compared to other services in the County Council. Paragraph one point four, legislation, figures prominent in here and Mr , legislation of course is currently a changing scheme in our service and perhaps the most important new act for several years is the New Road and Street Works Act, which is scheduled to be in action on the first of January next year and this will have two main effects for us, firstly the Local Highway Authority that is ourselves in Suffolk will be in a far stronger position to manage or influence or control the work of public utilities in public highways. I hope that delays will be reduced and therefore cost reduced money saver customers up there unless it can be to road users. Second point is the price to pay will be a sharp increase I fear in the administration of this new law, the approval of street works particularly carried out by public utilities will be required an increased demand upon our manpower resources. Paragraph three, the action plan, er well it will guide itself evidence this, the statements made under the action plan, from section three of the report will guide our activities over the next three years and of course paragraph four performance the critical success factors, by the seven criteria we will be judged in the highway service and each one is a challenge in its own right and I do hope to receive in order to carry out these er, these er promises in fact, that erm, I'd be given the relevant level of financial staff and resources thank you Chairman. I think when we slim down the Suffolk will be available which I take the word erm so that's quite helpful, also I believe that er the actual cost of this seems to be servicing met by the hopefully to a large degree there will be money coming inwards to the Local Authority, the Local Highway Authority in the future, the compliments of the inspection of public utilities works on the acceptance thereof, er so there will be sort of additional income to help erm finance any additional starting resources and required to, erm Mr Chairman, the across a lot of papers but in this paper it starts er and as Mr just said it starts as far as incr increments, erm do we know at this time or can we be informed as soon as were informed, where of what, whether implement are erm, like, are restricted by the, the Chancellor's statement, do we know or, are have we gotta wait? No, er I think it would be wise to separate the provision for increments from pay awards, they are quite separate er items of expenditure, the increments I refer to here, these are the annual increments which the County Council as an employers contract to take an individual as he addresses through his particular salary rate, will that to the Chancellor's announcement referred to pay awards in the public sector in their totality, not to relate in any way to the regularity or amount of increments. I think that would be a great assurance to the people that we employ because many of them do get increments. I can confirm that Chairman there are currently no proposals to er restrict the increment of progression. Okay, I think in fact the balance with the increment of two one nine will be something to er enquire by the panel and for concern and comments meant for Thank you Chairman , yes, erm I know this in little be, that erm, that er rejected as shown as an achievement of an acceptable level provision while it worked, in er title which you just, just dealt with six five nine Yes er four E, we said er in that recommendation at least two million on minor work on footways meaning that er two million was by no means what we needed to spend, erm, is it in fact regarded from a point of view of, of Bedford seeing this paper and our recommendations that er acceptable is a more diplomatic word to put in there rather than increase er as increase likely to cause certain principal in the present, erm economic employment. Er I'm not really quite sure that Bedford take that sort of really interest in our affairs actually, certainly based on those I'd be very surprised if er Yeah, er if that's the case then I, I think we will increase what we're doing there in line with six five nine er four Aren't we all? Four one E we say Four, one E Yeah, on, on page six one, on page six five nine, which we've already approved B Four one E? six five nine four one eight What paper are you on? Six five nine The which referred to previous paper page six five nine will be four one E Oh Oh we said at least two Right, so the we're making Yes, erm, erm obviously not made it very well, but erm, but the word acceptable ought to be altered to increased Where? Where? it'll be in the performance er, erm backwards This is page four We're now back to the page that we were on which is six six one Oh four one B four one little B Councillor I'm sorry, you've lost me, what are you actually referring to? That's a five Chapter first please that's a five Alright read it, it's around five and er, er Which paper? On, on six six one Six, six, one if I were currently Four one V not B, it's four one V five Five Don't demonstrate it please What we seem, what we seem to be doing is increase the provision that's what you're saying? That's right, yeah right erm Away you go three two little B, the same level of capital payments on non T S G assisted schemes would've done, erm exactly what are these schemes? And when does the Highways Committee decide the order of priority of erm undertaking these schemes? Mm Which I figured is our duty to do. Alright, alright just suppose that Councillor are five four one five, he's asking you be changed, increased, alright? Are there any problems upon that suggestion? Can we dispose of that out of the way? We agreed that as we are in fact we, we are keen on recent minor works programme by an increase which we agree upon that, agreed upon that one? Thank you very much I'm delighted Councillor now we dispose of your point which three two and B and the question you're asking Yes my Chairman the question you're asking is when do we decide our priorities? Priorities are decided as part of the January cycle which introduce at the local budget Chairman the, the mechanism is well practised and widely known it starts with the draft two two B in the January the Committee and after a period of about five to six months' consultation within which the board programme of work of all capitalists are listed and put out to the community for response through their elected organization as to acceptability, five points of detail who were at relatively hirer one man to speak another, is normally then referred back within the T B B and also with the year, the middle of the July committee every year we report on, schedule and minor improvement propose for the accounted year and the following year when members can see each individual scheme which is under preparation and is imminent in their lovely er their order of construction. Will these include the ones of each held this year, last year that, that haven't been undertaken? Yes, naturally, yes. As far as consultation of process of course, I mean endless of how it can be sit in on the public just quickly Yes Chairman, er under four one six performance, I think that we shouldn't er allow this occasion pass without complimenting the work of our road safety officers, where we talk about the reduction of accidents in accordance with we have extremely good erm figure on a reduction in accident over the last few years and I'd like to erm, I'd like Councillor to erm to prevail our thanks to the road safety officers Er perhaps do that in the comments can we accept the recommendation as laid out on the first page of the is that agreed? Thank you very much indeed can we move on to the Er Chairman before we go on, could we conduct the experiment, could we actually shut that, see if the noise goes Yes it is a bit of a deterrent A gentleman already closed one here the paper and this report introduces the draft version of the highly transportation from it with consultation of organization down in the business, some whom are listed in section two now when it's finally approved the highway and transportation from it will be corporated as a specific service provision within the name Suffolk. Now they say surprises the said document for you this morning before it goes out front page, and the fifteen promises will no doubt will be noted by all who have an interest in our service. The Chairman Councillor assure that none of these fifteen commitments will be used in evidence against us, er I'm not gonna the documents evidence, er I would however like to point out this isn't included into the report, but much of these have these days that incidence of complaints received er by organization such as ours from the general public and I'm happy to report this indeed can be verified factually that the incidence of complaint against the highway service has dropped off enormously in the last two or three years, certainly within the last two years when we concentrated so much of our time and effort and improved in the quality and immediacy of the service of practice, er the level of complaints these days, and these are general complaints, not to the banks, not complaints directed to the wrong people, general complaints we are running now approximately perhaps even less than one per week, which is a tremendous improvement on about two or three years ago. Can I ask a question please, who will determine what is the most important work which is part of our promise, list Er That's, that's my point Chairman I'm speechless Mine too, mine too Yes we are, we are referring to promise number thirteen in order to say you can on the thirteen, it's the second page, third up from the bottom, we promise to repair potholes that are considered dangerous in the most important roads within twenty four hours of application. I have to tell the survey that er er ten days ago I reported a, a very deep pothole in a most important road I can, I can tell you that this morning that the pothole is not only there it's full of water so you can't actually see it, but, the point is it's Doctor Watson's Lane I know well which is actually taken in significant of all of you, but it's the most important road to me, that's the point I make erm and so that a, a I think the wording in promise thirteen wants looking at. The general point here and I want to make is that er, these aren't officers' promises these are the members' promises and er, erm, we've got to be careful that er when they're all drawn together that we aren't making a hostage fortune, erm and so that I think it is very important members take aboard er what is suggested and test them themselves to see that they are realistic, I would also say that er as these promises are being considered by the various committees and I note a considerable variation in standards which will need to be addressed when the promises er, have come back to the Policy Committee, these are particularly in reference to the time required to respond to er, erm complaints etc, it's no use having the Highways Committee wanting two weeks and incidentally on promise number two erm I think that er any up, somebody else's point er straight forward wants to be deleted, erm the highways require two weeks to respond er, erm hearts and libraries want a, you know half a day, er and we've got to get these er erm more or less synchronized I think, and whilst I'm thinking Chairman on the last page er of the er favourite for, for first for agent authorities, but it doesn't give any indication about the contact point and as most of our population live in the agent authorities that the er it needs to be expanded to give the contacts er points for the members of the public. Very good. Chairman the last one first I fully accept the defence er request that er the telephone numbers, contact points and names for our three agent authorities are necessary and make this will be provided in amount similar to that the information provided for officers of the main organization. Chairman I was delighted to hear Mr and our members with the comments, it was not just an officer from, the members' comments as well, and I hope we can work together in fulfilling these promises, what are the most important roads? Er not defining this particular document you find elsewhere, the most important roads are I hope you will agree the roads where the traffic volume the traffic are greatest and where the greatest problem there are or, or, er exist under normal circumstances to which the trunk roads, the A roads, the primary roads, the principle roads, these roads are where the traffic is greatest and this therefore constitutes in my mind at least the most important roads, I think your correct term, we will er consider the phraseology used in perhaps more accurately to described the, the, the title road which we are talking about here, but I certainly take the point you make. And on that I think we have highways service promises, not highways appointment Er yes Mr Chairman, I mean I assume this thing gives us a fairly embryonic stage, I hope it's not intended in any way as a finished article, it seems to me in many cases er a state into the obvious er I'd hope that our employees would be polite people, erm you know this is a great step forward to putting down on a paper, I don't know, but I mean just this mixture of ambiguity and feebleness I think, when we talk about the provision of an acceptable level of public transport, I mean it's acceptable to whom for heavens sake? Surely we should toughen this up a bit and say, I mean I'm probably getting a fortune or something, but just say that er a co , a level of public transport corresponding to the needs, possibly even the aspirations to the people of Suffolk, so the emphasis is on, you know,cer you know putting people first I think is the County Council slogan, erm, what do I accept from the members service? Well it might be as it is, might be as it was, you know, who, who knows? Erm I think it would be nice if the grammar were checked from , we promised to give high priority in responding, surely we can give priority to responding, and as a small point, I was gonna go on about the most important road which of course is Breadfield Street erm but I think the whole thing needs looking at again er and toughening up, made a little bit more convenient and I hope that er, I hope that you can do this, and this that this will not be our last opportunity within this document. Mr do you want to come in? Mr Chairman I'm, I'm a little bit concerned about er number two er there's something that is, we promised to reply straightforward written enquiry with without sort of commenting on whether it's two weeks, two days, or whatever, I am a little concerned that some of the replies people show me that have had from Highways Department, erm, they really whoever writes them don't go into any detail, I've had, I've seen letters recently where, where somebody said it will be dealt with in about four weeks' time, well that's okay, maybe they've good and valid reasons why about four weeks is about right for their particular problem, but they don't know why it's gonna take four weeks, they say oh god they should be able to do that in a couple of days there's no problem it's an easy little job, I, I feel that the, our officers when they reply they should give some amount of detail and if they give a time span in which they're gonna put something right, they should say why it's gonna take that long. Mr Mr Chairman, two points I want to make and er I get, I can link where the words can go on the top where under the leadership of County er survey, and the la at the end of that last paragraph. This document is nice and clear plain English, but quite frankly some of the replies and some of the er, er things understood by the public, can we ensure that we do use plain English, I've got no criticism with this, this is okay, but when we get the replies to our customers erm that we service can we use plain English, that's my first point, do you want to respond or can I make my second one? No carry on, carry on The second point is that I've, the Americans I, I, it's one of the promises about street life in second from the bottom, two weeks in the winter, four weeks in the summer, well I know to my cost erm through my ear being blasted which is why you're a County Councillor anyway, that it's been six weeks at the present time, we've had a lot of lights going down, okay we're trying to improve it, we had people walking into cars, er, er a few burglaries which I'm pleased to say the police have helped out in, but if we're going to change and get it down from a level of six weeks to two weeks as it is in the area I represent, is that not a question of putting extra resources in it and there's no good putting promises unless we can deliver. Okay, erm is that we want to respond at, are you sure those unsolved are County Council ones and not your farm house ones? No, they are County Council lights, we couldn't afford it if there was too many of them. Chairman with the, with the performing of street lighting er equipment, has to be conducted on site of basis, we have a system of scouting, the whole County is covered by paid scouts who every so often do a tour of their big network of units to ensure that there is, now one has to allow within the response time for the next cycle of inspection to proceed, that's why were partial explanation and I have the English to explain that for you the main explanation why so long to reply is very much geared to the fact that we are in the hands of the Electricity Board for everything below the junction box on the street lighted column, if the bolt is in the cable, or a cable junction or in a circuit we are in the hands in another organization totally, who will have their own timescales and priority to responses. But it isn't easy we have a lot, what complaints we get bearing in mind what I said a short while ago, what complaints we get now are very much biased towards defects in street lighting systems provided currently here and there in Suffolk, so I'm conscious of this, we are working with the Eastern Electricity Board on an improved maintenance contract whereby certain benefits, and one of them is immediacy of response to repair work will be I hope put forward, very conscious of it indeed so and er we are struggling with what the, the basic cause of it all of course is the, the, the quality of some of our street light and equipment here and there throughout Suffolk is old or very out of date and even run down indicator procedure, so we have got a large real programme as well as repairing ones already there. Then on the question of consistency across the services, my colleague chief officers and I are very conscious of the fact that we should endeavour to get just as Mr suggests some er, er cross service er, erm common response time for various points raised. It is I would suggest much easier to respond to the complaint in the line of service sir than it is in one round more complex technical services with contractors and sub contractors and the like, with whom we've had to deal, so there is that to be borne in mind as well, erm I think I know about some of the response to be responded to that, but it does generally valuable this talk, this discussion cos it does show the degree of viability of exposing the service to, your making problems of this nature, it immediately challenges people to come back and say what about it, you promised this, you promised that and you're not performing, this, this is discussion is a live example of the Mr Chairman we did tackle very successfully er under utilities where we employ an extra couple of officers, I even asked the question at for County Council what was going on, we, I think we've got something further on the agenda elsewhere where we're trying to keep our stand standards up, but I still feel that if we're going to be able to deliver a promise we've got to deliver it, if it means monitoring the erm utilities then I think we should do it. Yeah, but we have given a promise to it Mr Chairman small point, that's the whole point, I think er Miss was coming in Erm Well Mr Chairman I was erm referring to oh fine Presumably Mr was also talking about Would you let Miss I used the Hadley an awful lot and defence of the Highway Department I have no complaint on that whatsoever about the street lighting, I think it's very good, thank you, right . Very good Miss Now then I was going to ask one simple question and that is, has anyone thought about keep sending postcards to people, er if the, erm reply is going to be delayed in any way, because at least then the person if there's sufficiently good reference will be able to, phone up and say look you know, yes I'm not happy, it seems to me that that would be a way forward on that, erm. I think it was a moment ago No, but, but I think that's something that is yeah necessary Acknowledge cards has been in use for some months now just that Yes that seems to me to fit that sort of bill, erm to be quite honest I would prefer that we base the promises on a previous paper that T six six one, er you know, sort of er typical success of the fact looking forward cos at least erm that's not so erm, you know, sort of difficult to erm you know achieve as erm sort of repairing potholes within, when you consider that the reason that the potholes don't get mended is because government legislation has it that we have to actually erm have lines painted all round them, so that they can be part of the package of er road mending in many cases, I mean urgently erm difficult ones are not that common er so I think that perhaps some of these promises are so difficult because it gives with one hand and takes back with the other, you know, it says we promise, but, I, I would say that's not much of a promise, you say I promise to erm, you know, erm merge, I forgot about, but if it said but, you know, if it rains I won't tell you, er it would be very sad What I think that's a very real to have, a very real er need to have promises with no edging about. Why forgive me, one of the promises here is we promise to make it county wide twenty four hours call out service for attending emergency highway works, and that's a promise Fair enough that's, that's that is one, and many of these say erm we promise to treat all personal callers courteously and those with an appointment will be seen without delay, well it means that the others will have a delay so it, you know, it's really difficult Chairman, I, I think none of this is meant as criticism so I don't think you need to get too emotive about it, it's a huge step forward having undertaken of this, of this er, the there's basically three points that the public worry about, one is certainly the pothole situation and if we take er Mr assurance that they are categories of roads that will be dealt with in priority, I think we also then need to spell out those various categories within our promise, er because in Mr place, example his pothole is just as important to him or indeed to a motorcyclist going along that little lane going into the pothole as, on, on a front road, so I think we need to clarify those, those er categories. The second point is on correspondence, I'm absolutely certain that when a member of public writes in to any department, not necessarily highway, he expects and needs an immediate response, now I know you have, you have started the acknowledgement of our system, but I think it's, it doesn't go far enough, an acknowledgement card that simply says the thing is received and is receiving attention, needs to then indicate the individual to whom that matter has been passed for attention and that leads me to the third point and I think the general complaint on the public is that local government is seen as faceless people and I think we have to get in our mind to name people within our department, there's not one mention about it in our promise, I think we need, unless I've not read it, but I think, I think we, yes, but I think we need to mention people by name, senior people within the department who will respond to particular things and certainly where public comes into contact within the offices we must get around to wearing a name badge who says who that person is, people want to relate to a person and I think we can do that if we try. Yes, well just a postscript just to show to my earlier comments, I, I think this undertaking about street lighting will be met with some clarity over wide areas of Suffolk which have never seen a street light, er as far as I can recall the last figures I saw on this suggested that if we were to er carry out all the work that er parish is required it would take forty years to er meet the er thing, so perhaps it would be advisable for, for when this promise is acting on the delivered from a maternity hospital so the newborn can have something to look forward to in, in Well in, in terms of it really is taking the I'm sorry sir Councillor how many separate ones? Three Thank you Chairman, as er members will know there's an experiment at Felixstowe where a few local members and the of the sub committee went down to hear actual objectors to er transport opposable, that was so successful that this paper now recommends that as a general principle, but most of the following a review by the county surveyor we suggest further things which are automatic consultation with local members and indeed this process of public consultation be brought forward to the beginning of the whole procedure of traffic managing reviews, now that, that sort of consultation will be more in the nature of a public meeting than a semi-formal enquiry, but we recommend to you that we use the same sort of terminology so that the public appreciates that they are genuinely being consulted by the County Council, now if we find that there are very contentious proposals after an order has been published, er a C C H, a County Consultant of Hearing may still be held if as members you feel that's something you want to do, because the objective of, of this whole concept of County Consultant of Hearings is to have er flexible arrangements so that the County Council can demonstrate its commitment with consultations at a local level to demonstrate that, that members in particular are hearing what local people er say and to set up procedures within the organization to give members, particularly local members more involvement in the traffic management review process, those are the recommendations Chairman which involve in the paper. Yes, thank you. Erm, yes, thank you Chairman. As most of the main towns in Suffolk have reviews every two years are you contemplating having er those, that sort of interview of erm public hearing. Er what every two years sorry? They have traffic management erm reviews every two years. Can't image them every two years This is That's general policy at the present time it's a fairly woolly objective that we didn't try at the review, but the traffic management facilities and provisions are observed and important thereof on the oh I would be very happy that they would happen, if we get them Mr Thank you. Having er, been invited to attend the first ever in County Council Hearing I'm delighted with it's as well received as it's had and I would just like to clarify point C which is after the relative sort of consultation with local members and the whole review of meeting er, who will be present at the review meeting? Well that's an existing stage at the moment which is an officer led stage with other representative bodies. Local members as, er appreciate with this paper will be kept informed and will also I should of said the Chairman of the Transport and Road Safety Sub Committee, because the process of consultation won't work effectively unless local views are heard and they of course can be heard through the local member. Thank you very much At this stage perhaps I can emphasize Jan this is such a flexible concept that er we are anxious not to lay down any rigid rules as to how it works because if some things don't work very well, they can be altered and if some things do prove to work well like the event we had at Felixstowe we can build on that success so quite consciously we're not laying down any rigid rules as to how things go and we will look to review how officers we, we erm advise you as members in the light of practical experience. Thank you. Any other comments? Yes. Just one comment Chairman I see the is on three three two. I would make the observation that when er you come to I agree with all the items on four two, but I think also the local press except for should carry an advert saying that in fact this will take place, erm and what the procedure is, I think and also to advertise if possible in local shops that sort of thing because that is the only way we're going to get at some of these things, preferably at Felixstowe an example a local newspaper was used to advertise the actual hearing, I think the, I said the important thing is that people do appear, do turn up, do voice their opinion, do make sure who their County Councillor is, a local member and other County Councillors in all their process actually know what local people feel excess through their local positions, any other comments? Sir Yes I think one of the most valuable points that emerged from the Felixstowe experience, as far as I was concerned anyway was the fact that with all those people there when we heard their views, erm, it was quite apparent that it wasn't the case of local people opposing what the County Council traffic people propose to do, many there were many different and varying interests there and, and we, we could, we can then basically come to a conclusion which satisfied, satisfied I hope most of them, but, we, we, at that meeting among the local people some supporters with some of our road safety and some were very much against them, others were neutral, but it wasn't just a question of erm a, a united opposition of what we proposed to do er, and this was very valuable. Thank you can we in that case accept the er the recommendation. Right, we'll now do turn the page to T six six six four, which is the intensity by Graham by officer Chairman, less than one year ago since the report prepared for this committee recommending that work should commence on the preparation of the new bypass scheme of the town of Brandon, and since that date considerable progress has been made. Consulting that people gave, basic traffic mentioning survey work which has been carried out and public consultation has been undertaken in the town, focus upon an exhibition of possible adoptions held in July this year at the Brandon Community Centre. Now the results of that years work public of all members today in four T six six four and the report provides a summary of our findings, the existing problems on this section two point one point one and the possible solutions on summarized in section two point one point two. Consultation has revealed a most marked preference for route A, which is the green route shown on the consultation leaflet attached to the report and if, if looks would divert the primary route the A ten sixty five around the north west premature, the town of Brandon, the summary table of cost and benefits showed within the consultation leaflet identifies that route A gives the best value for money, it has least impact on land use and it offers the shortage and therefore possibly the most attractive reduction to bypassable traffic on the A ten sixty five access. Unfortunately Chairman there has been some polarization of opinion between the Norfolk and the Suffolk interests. The County Council's consultants and myself both recommend route A on grounds of traffic benefit, engineering assessment and economic practice. Our own Planning Committee County Council Planning Committee recommends route A on environmental and ecological grounds and route A is the popular choice the town speak and the Brandon Action Group and indeed the Suffolk member of Parliament, however the Norfolk County Council and the Weeting Parish Council oppose for the day and the Norfolk Member of Parliament supports their case, worth noting that Breckland District Council, the local planning authority in Norfolk also opposes for a day, now though it appears to be so this is not altogether a case of playing between two County Councils and their their respect of community. Since there is some evidence that the fears expressed by the Weeting Parish Council about long distance lorries being diverted to the Bury St Edmunds, Brandon, Weeting, King's Lynn the B eleven O six, a consequence of this County Council's lorry ban on the A ten eighty eight and that does have some evidence to support that theory and paragraph two point five in my re report, sorry two point three not two point five, two point three in my report referred to that thing. So Chairman it would appear that finding the correct solution for a Brandon bypass is linked to the problems surrounding the Department of Transport proposals in Suffolk to trunk the A one three four road between Bury St Edmunds and Thetford and the A ten eighty eight lorry bans and in my view therefore the debate needs to be extended to a before the optimum solution can be identified. A solution which hopefully will resolve quite a number of related problems. The importance of Norfolk County Council views are referred to in paragraph two point four point two and unless Norfolk support for route A can be obtained then Suffolk County Council will eventually be powerless to proceed with what is clearly a preferred option when measured objectively. It is really in my mind almost a repeat of the situation we found ourselves in, in the Sudbury Western bypass some year or two ago, which strayed into Essex onto which the Essex County Council raised objection, er, one cannot build a road in an adjoining County without the consent in law of the County Highway Authority on whose ground you trespass, it's almost as simple as that and in this case with Norfolk standing presumably indicating their intention to oppose the construction for a day, we have something of a static bar situation unless we can reach agreement. Since the strength of feeling by the Norfolk members Chairman only became really apparent in the last two dates and the wires of telephones were hot yesterday with a conversation between myself and others north of the border and since discussions we held yesterday with representatives of the Department of Transport in Bedford indicates a solution to suit all interests to make it achievable. I seek leave this morning to hold my recommendation to adopt for a day as per Bungay bypass, tending member discussions which need to be held with representatives from both Suffolk County Council and Norfolk County Council. Now these discussions could be held very quickly and in the very near future and really cause no effective delays in the provision, the actual provision of the Brandon bypass since we all know it's not scheduled construction anyway until the second part of this decade. I also recommend Chairman that these member discussions should be extended to include representatives of the Breckland and District Council, given their declared opposition to our preferred choice route A and the important procedures now associated with the drafting of local plans. Chairman I'm, I'm conscious that this amended recommendation will cause some disappointment among the support of the Brandon bypass, but I generally feel that some form of agreement can be reached with Norfolk County Council and Breckland District Council and indeed the Norfolk Member of Parliament, if I'm given more time to review the situation in the light of other proposals on the A eleven, the A one three, four and in Thetford. Chairman I will endeavour to arrange discussions as a matter of extreme urgency and report back to January ninety three meeting of this Committee hopefully with problems resolved. So Chairman I offer in lieu of three point one, the formal recommendation an alternative recommendation which is as follows,it is recommended that further consultation take place with Norfolk County Council and Breckland District Council at prior to the next meeting of the Highways Committee before any decision is taken with regard to a preferred route for the Brandon bypass . Gentlemen if you accept that amended recommendation it will be necessary this morning to identify those members of your committee who will take part in this joint committee. Thank you Chairman. Thank you right, yes, Thank you sir, er Mr has mentioned the disagreement er the potential disagreement between Norfolk and Suffolk County Councils, what happens may I ask, if that er disagreement cannot be resolved at the local lev level, is the Minister called in? The situation basically is that I am confident I can come to accommodation with Norfolk from my way of thinking as the neighbouring Highway Authority, those the people we've got to er to make certain are on site, I'm sure, I'm confident enough to do that. There is no, if you like, no mileage to be gained in two important Local Authorities falling out over a particular issue. I'm sure that, that, that as long as we can show Norfolk, we can show Norfolk with our concern interest just as much as Suffolk is concerned that our there are reasonable people in Norfolk they've got a, they've got a good committee, and I'm sure that our working relationship will be but in the very unlikely, very unlikely er position whereby Norfolk are absolutely adamantly oppose our proposals then as Mr said it's very difficult for us to build in, in neighbouring authority, there is however one procedure left to us and that of course will be for us to meet in private act of Parliament, well that is er almost unthinkable, but we do have a final resort to that with a, in many ways the problems in Brandon have to be resolved by, by doing a bypass and if in the end we have to do that I'm sure that committee, but I'm, it's a long, long way for us to go on that particular path. I'm delighted to hear that sir and er I was also delighted to hear Mr say that this start date is not likely to be delayed because of this, this prior agreement that is necessary and I was hopeful that er Brandon bypass could retain the position that's retained itself on our agenda papers this morning I E I mean on our, on our plan we have before us we have no there erm indeed of er, of er of industrial area, and that consists of er steel stock holder there, there is in fact er, a, a wood saw, there's also a shed manufacturer and also a clear waste of Thetford also uses that, there are large houses, erm in there and all that traffic has to trundle along through residential areas, again onto er onto public routes, er indeed also in fact Pengate Road is very unattractive looking er settlement, if I can use that expression, so for Weeting my proposals would in fact disguise that by embankment and by tree planting, in fact I think that Weeting would gain considerably and it's these sort of things which we will press upon your vote to draw their attention not just the people of Suffolk but in Brandon important though those are there's knock on effects, benefits to the rest of the and the rest of the district and I'm sure arguments will carry considerable weight. Mr Chairman could I suggest to you that erm, when we have our meeting with, with Norfolk County Councillors, that erm the rail policy group supporting to this, because although the traffic conveyor policy do and indeed the Norfolk rail policy group are not formal County Council committee, erm we know that Norfolk rail policy group have identified the northern group as the most desirable to their point of view, because of the possibility with freight and road interchange at, at er Brandon, and so I, may I suggest that, that a representative from both Norfolk and Suffolk rail policy groups, they're included in this meeting with the North Councillors. That was, that was to be wasn't it? Can I ask a further question Councillor please? Yes of course Er Mr mentioned Breckland District and Norfolk County and, and Suffolk County in this consultation process, could I ask if district will be invited to send a delegate or delegates to this Well, of course Forest Heath are already on site aren't they? I mean it's, I mean er, we still consider, I mean in many ways it's, it's Breckland but particularly Norfolk we want to particularly their members we want to get, we want to get to, I mean er, you'll need obviously great support authority District Council but er, er I will, I will consider that, but I don't really think it's necessary for that Thank you. there we are. Would it be nec would it be a good idea to have Weeting's Par Parish Council there as wel well , or representatives from there? Well it's those things that we would like to have decision making in these matters, and let's face it Norfolk County Council or the Highway Authority and Breckland are the people of the if you widen it out we're talking about a consultation and I think in many ways we must respect the local member, erm represent the meeting, will no doubt be present from Breckland and no doubt will put the views erm, but it's, it's this, Breckland and Norfolk you wanna get to grips with and it's only members you wanna see, I will in fact er, you know, I'll make that point anything that's necessary at the meeting, Parish Council will be present, but I'll get onto er Thank you. any other comments? What about the actual erm, erm, we know how it is on this in our January meeting, February meeting I'm sorry, February meeting, are there any other comments members want to make now about proposals which were on the table, about the actual route line which was the one yes, do come back on that. I was gonna be happy to move the recommendation sir and anyone who's aware of the traffic problem in London Road Brandon will, will support that and also sir the figures that in the questionnaire that was sent out support route A, emphatically because you'll notice that double the people er double the number who returned the questionnaire supported route A as opposed to any of the other alternatives, so, so I think the, the recommendation that we were to accept this morning's various adequately worded and, and accepted. I hope er the Chairman that the committee will not follow Mr 's suggestion and will in fact support er erm Mr 's alternative er suggestion er, as been stand at the moment to, to accept the recommendation on the order paper alone with the we need to resolve this one in consultation with Norfolk and er therefore Mr er, erm proposal that further consultation should take place must be the right one to follow. Yes we need I think Mr misunderstood Chairman with respect that, that isn't what I was saying at all, what I was saying was had Mr not made his statement, this was the one that hopefully we would all of accepted. Apologies to Mr That's quite alright sir, we all make mistakes. Thank you, yes, I think in a course of er, er explanation that's been given this morning, there was a reference to H G V eight diversion, now I'm concerned that if in fact that means that er H G Vs are increasingly using the route through Culford there are two very severe right angle bends on that road and I should erm like to see the police take some action to persuade H G V to ban that route er I mean can we do a ban on the early section of it with in particular to like angle bends are? I think I'm not promised at present the lorry ban as it is resulting parking on we'll certainly look at that, yes Thank you and that er Chairman could I just have one final Of course a mi a very minor point that is that while we're er carrying on these negotiations and I, I think it can be done without thought without er making the timespan from the start of this bypass, there is one minor point in that and I think it could be dealt with and, and that is the people of Brandon can see that, that the pedestrian crossing near the small roundabout in the centre of the town is far too close to that roundabout and they er believe that it causes considerable traffic hold ups and I see erm no reason why this pedestrian crossing shouldn't be moved to accommodate else, yeah. Can we ask the surveyor than in fact to er ensure that that pedestrian crossing is shifted to accommodate er the local wishes, is that, is that okay? I'd like to take that on board and review the situation that we give, given a predicament still therefore a purpose and I hear what Mr has to say and I look at that particular pelican crossing myself, and respect the flow of the roundabout, but then where do we put it? Perhaps it's not easy to find an alternative part, so I'd like to take that from you Chairman if I may and, and be assured that will be reviewed as far as the the dismissed point about the, the, the problems is thought er are I hope will be addressed by the, we've got the solution to the problems on the A one three four trunk road and County Council and the department transport strategy right now is to see the A one three four, north of Bury St Edmunds be made a trunk road and the situation I'd suspect will be addressed within that other part, I did mention in my presentation that there are a number of inter-related problems here, I can trace about four or five, all of which have a chain reaction one upon the other, unfortunately Brandon is up front so we've got to tackle it from the other direction. I hope the negotiation with Norfolk will give us that opportunity and the negotiations with the Department of Transport as well, we must not leave them out, this they are crucial to the solution of the entirety of these province. Chairman What I think at this moment Chairman is, is that route contains several setbacks Okay and the H G Vs on that route are very dangerous. Point let's go on. Chairman if it's possible for the, for the pelican crossing to be, to be moved from one place can we ask Mr if it's going to help the local neighbourhood in any way, we ask Mr if that is done yesterday rather than a review and then coming back to us in due course, let's get on with it if it can be done. Right right, okay, we've had the discussion come the debate, I said the er the use of Norfolk who they knew what we were about were only made to us yesterday, and the recommendation is slightly watered down, connecting with the highways can be using the I think it will be helpful if er the group and members and could I suggest please the members be myself, my Chairman, Mr the leader of the er Labour group and Mr as being a local independent member and possibly Mrs and possibly er Mrs to join us because we are issued with the ten eighty eight which you've had er, ought to be brought into plan. Happy to serve on that party sir. Er Mr Chairman I trust the local member Mr be my Yes, certainly I second that. Are we all happy with that? Are we all done? Yeah Okay, the recommendation then as proposed on as Chairman the, the amended recommendation I offer as follows, it is recommended that further consultation take place with Norfolk County Council and Brandon District Council at prior to the next meeting of the Highway Committee before any decision is taken with regard to for the Brandon bypass. And we can combine that with those list of members which we agree, so agreed with our colleagues in Norfolk, is that agreed? Move that be accepted sir. Thank you very much. May I move on please to the next paper? May I suggest that Thank you sir Thank you Could I erm, bring back to order and er ask for the approval for agenda eighteen Thank you Chairman, and far the experiment fact on the A one thing is for sure, we have succeeded in dramatically reducing the volume of noise using the A ten and in its primely purpose it has therefore undoubtedly be an outstanding success, but as the report makes way clear the experiment has had adverse to that effect, notably on the A one three four and on minor roads from the East on the A ten eighty eight. From the outset the wide impact of the ban was and anticipate, the experiment has given me opportunity for it to be tested on the ground so that future decision can be taken objectively. Strong feelings have been generated by this experiment and report summarizes in paragraph three, four and three, the main group in which they fall. The County Council has been very active in trying to find a way forward which retains the objective of relieving the A ten eighty eight of lorries, but reduces the rat run in through the small villages using what are no more than country lanes. At a series of meetings to invite convene by a local member Mrs the concept of issuing to local involved in local was put forward as a possible way forward, section four of the report describes this approach being more detailed. At the meeting on the fourth of November we referred to in paragraph four point eight, the use of permits was generally recognized as worthy of consideration. It is undoubtedly Chairman something of a compromise, but it should be moved as significant portion of the noise on the back roads although not all. It will re-introduce some lorries onto the A ten eighty eight, but only about thirty per day compared with the six hundred or so which have been removed as a result of a current experiment. If it is to work effectively it will require the good will of Mr , who, in all discussion today has shown a most responsible attitude and I have no reason to believe that this will not continue. Chairman may I just read the conclusions of a letter from Miss , she says in my, it is my opinion that the local licensing scheme should be endorsed with a review after six months. The benefits, the law and the villages all along the edge of eighty eight are so enormous that we must try and sustain, and I'm very hopeful that, would, with the good will of the whole of us we can improve the quality of life for everyone . The recommendation before, therefore is that a second phase of the county experiment be implemented for a period of three months to six months, whichever is felt necessary, to allow the effects of to be modified, thank you Chairman. Yes thank you Mr er Mrs do you want to come in now or do you want to Yes, well just er briefly Chairman I've seen the television cameras being set up on Mutford Bridge, so I'm quite certain you don't want to prolong this meeting and er in case they go away. Right, I think that's a very good idea. er Chairman thank you for inviting me to come erm here today, er particularly as Mrs who's the other member of erm, affected by the lorry ban on the A ten eighty eight it's unfortunate unable to come, erm and thank you for including me in the er consultation process that you're planning with Norfolk County Council, er Chairman obviously I wish to support this, but just erm if I could make a couple of observations on your paper, erm firstly particular relation to the discussion we just had about Brandon, erm, I am aware Mr Chairman you've just described the er highways people in Norfolk as very reasonable, but I think that members will see particular if they look at problems like four point one that we do have to handle er working relationships with some care and I would want to express regret while I won't be less impolite than that, but Norfolk have not even seen fit to put up signs erm warning of the lorry ban erm in Thetford, erm, which shows er not exactly the spirit of co-operation, I hope we're going to be able to achieve in the consultations about Brandon and I thought It is part of the problem we have. it is part of the problem we have and I will say no more as I suspect our report of today will probably be in the daily press. Erm, Chairman I'm, I'm very sorry to if I may just mention this, that in the representations and observations that er are summarized in three point three, erm I personally have copies of letters written by parish councils all along the A ten eighty eight route, erm obviously I'm referring to Icksworth, Icksworth, and Euston, I believe all those parish councils have written to the county surveyor, erm, wilfully the er H G V ban and saying how successful they think it is, now the proposals in this paper don't have any particular effect on them, but I would want to pass on to the officers here in case it hasn't erm quite registered, but this ban has been very much welcomed on the northern section of the A ten eighty eight where although it's not a formal ban the affect on villages particular such as which has very sharp bends and has been considerable, Chairman my one concern which has in fact shared by Mrs as Mr referred in, in his letter is erm how long is this experiment should run for erm how long five point seven the first of three months, although the wording isn't, it is in fact half the recommendation, I would want to er agree with Mrs suggest that this be six months, erm because three months particularly in the winter months can't, can't really be considered a very thorough experimental period. Er er Chairman thank you for listening to use of the er actually who are all in front, mostly from Stanton which I represent, they have made their views known to me some years ago, er this might happen, erm I'm very glad that you have responded now to their concerns as well as the concerns of the villages and, and this paper does mark significant erm success co-operation between a lot of people involved and for that reason I welcome it, I would ask if it becomes be prepared to make it six months instead of three months please. Any contents, what's the problem of three months, six months, any problems there? None whatsoever Chairman. Yeah slightly scored and that struck at the meeting which Miss land, where one district council accused in terms of the problem refusing and I think that was the only Mr er yes Thank you Chairman, Chairman I think er sp Mrs in saying that all the villagers are affected by the and the eighty eight group in favour of happy and have to do the best, certainly and as you well know there has been a series of meetings in to try and immoderate the situation in erm, nevertheless I must report again on the plan eighty eight er on the A ten eighty eight, principally because even in England people realize that the villages in particularly in Norton were affected very badly, so you do support the ban on the ten on the A ten eighty eight and we do support an extension of that date, I'm not happy about the six month extension I would be much happier with the three month extension, I think the people in would prefer that too er partly because it would give everybody an opportunity to look at the particular problem er in, in, in, in, in a shorter period of time, erm we are also cheered by the recent visit to England by the minister there Mr who made certain promises, I think it would be useful if Mr who a candidate at the meeting would reiterate his promises publicly today, thank you Chairman. Right, do you want to comment if you wish? Yes please Mr Chairman. Chairman there were three areas of concern, the longer term objective were of course the bypass, that is some way into the future, the more the media is, that is concerned with traffic calming the more comprehensive traffic calming would be the subject of some in depth study who'd defined exactly what pieces of, of traffic are most suitable for that village, but one element and that was to do with in particular and, and some put gateway effect and possibly the ramble you see for example on the A twelve at Brandon in, er, er Brentham rather is something that we feel we could do readily and in the near future, so an element of that is calming in the very foreseeable future, more comprehensive traffic calming a little further into the horizon and I'm afraid the bypass some time much further into the horizon, I think Chairman, I hope that er Miss that's an adequate summary of our discussion. Thank you. Thank you Mr for your support, I know it's very difficult er, you know, in your past as a lawyer, in consequence I think that your er allergy towards this is, is a highly commend anyway can we set the recommendation? Yeah Just in , just in passing on this committee I'm assured will be concerned of the apparent difficulties between er the Highways er and the organization of Suffolk and that in Norfolk, erm and we shall be I think er wishing to look at that er to see what's going astray and something appears to me to be not quite right in the relationship and er, erm I think it's important that er adjoining Highway Authorities do in fact get on Indeed. so now if I've got to knock the surveyor's heads together that's Chairman I must Can I move on please? Accept the recommendation Agreed Agreed Thank you very much. Now Chairman I Yes North set ignore the map I think it is erm very important the map, I saw this outline about ten years ago, erm and, and neither has the fast golf course been constructed, erm where the road proposals are going through. I'm not sure on this map. Pardon, it's not, it's not shown on this map, no, cos erm the golf course have been instructed erm since this er plan been put in front of us some ten years ago. Can we accept recommendations? Chairman Agreed can I, very briefly, how is traffic going to enter into the village if option one is in fact stopped Sorry forgive me, this is the whole point, this is just for your information what has happened in the past, we're now looking at, looking for a new because things have changed so much in the ten years, we've got to look at new options. The reason why it's before you is because of the local plan Yeah the highway problems has got otherwise an additional process of handling enquiries is All I want to obtain from you is that the information the, that it will not be excluded around about the end, as soon as they take place. Nothing is ruled out. Thank you. Okay. Can we move on please into the next general item which is the er, er sorry the badly paper T six six six. Yes thank you Chairman a very power survey of the present has been undertaken and the result analysed in the full report, the summary of which is produced as a the findings show that there is a concentrating vehicles in the centre of the town, particularly St Mary's Street and carrying some eight hundred vehicles in the and both streets falling within the conservation area. The results of the survey are broadly consistent we found in similar sides, specific problems of traffic congestion in the town centre but elsewhere a few traffic problems. Some pressure on central area short stay parking particularly Street and the one expense scandal personal injury accident, although overall levels are not excessively high. One of the purposes of this day was to examine the north bypass the and the report is early warning that based on present level of flow, the volume of traffic using such a bypass would be relevantly low. Some two thirds of that currently used in the A one four four south of the town means stopping rather than through trips. While even this degree of relief Chairman in the town centre would be welcome, the problem comes in trying to justify a new bypass in terms of its cost effectiveness. Nevertheless a traffic model will be created and used to, to predict future traffic demand, the survey gain as described in this paper is comprehensive and should enable effective testing of the and be confident in its ability to forecast future of how it flows, only at that stage then will be the liability or otherwise in the north south bypass be fully known as will also the role to be played by traffic management measures. The specific recommendations are contained in paragraph four point one of the report. Yes, the paper actually and in fact the result of co-operation between Suffolk and Norfolk which I hope you know, both be recognized, I'm sure it did in Norwich er Councillor , yes Well thank you Chairman, I have to go back to last Wednesday afternoon, when I had a telephone call from a reporter from the Eastern Daily Press asking me to make a statement on the press release by Suffolk County Council stating that the Bungay bypass has been abandoned well Chairman I have to say that I was somewhat erm put out, because I did I disappoint I think because they, the Highway Department didn't have the courtesy to inform me first, and you can well imagine how I felt er having received this news. I refrained from making any statement until I had the erm minutes which I received the er, agenda which I received the next day which contradict the abandonment, but if the idea was to sort of give this troublesome member from Bungay a heart attack, er it failed, cos I'm still here and ticking, now I would like to go through once again the, the point regarding Bungay and I hope the committee will take it on board with. The traffic flow through Bungay had increased by thirty per cent over the past ten years. These aren't my figures they're County Council figures The point is this, what is going to happen if positive action is to reduce the flow of traffic, I have to emphasize with you the flow of traffic is not taken. I said at the last meeting in Bungay in January that Bungay will cease to function within five years if something wasn't done about it. I don't wanna realized. Bungay is a, is an historic and a delightful town and one that qualifies on environmental ground alone for a bypass, I refer to paper T one, erm which is er, paper of the ninth of January nineteen ninety two, and if you refer to little B, seven, five bypasses for towns and villages where there is serious and environmental intrusion by through traffic. And I think that Bungay qualifies on that grounds. When the outstanding plan of consent are completed and the industrial state in place anticipate the traffic will be intensified. T six six six states that thirty four per cent of the traffic to Bungay is bypassable in, in Brandon has forty, forty per cent. From my own observation the majority of thirty four per cent is heavy traffic we have the additional problem that the shops in Saint Mary's Street, with the majority of shops in Saint Mary's Street, that is the main street, have no rear accesses. Consequently heavy lorries make deliveries and other heavy lorries passing through cause congestion. The traffic through Shoresea Street, although a one way street, causes great concern and inconvenience for the residents in two three two it erm, you'll read that it says erm, lightly generate, well believe me it does cause problems. Shoresea Street is the only route to the A one four four. The report mentions Clay as being a major employer, there is also Buxton Poultry of just outside Bungay, they have, they, they employ around five hundred people. Now the Matthews at employ twelve hundred people, much of their traffic passes through Bungay, their products, their employee and supplies are all over the place and their products are distributed country-wide, much of their traffic goes through Bungay, and I think they both have plans to extend their plants both er Buxton and Bernard Matthews. Taking into account the length for the length of the features and the cons the consultation that take place and the length of time they take, I do not expect to see er Bungay bypass construction for some time yet, but I do expect the County Council to progress on that in such a manner that Bungay will not grind to a halt. Er Chairman this, this matter has caused great concern in Bungay I can tell you, I went to the Bungay town meeting last night and they were absolutely horrified at the way this has been handled and I have to apologize on behalf of the, of the County Council. I would ask this committee to keep this in the programme and to monitor the situation as it goes along. Thank you Chairman. Well thank you. I think if you look at the recommend on most on the inevitable the members of the town hall, but also know the work on the assessment on north south London bypass is continual Mm, mm that is still ongoing, erm the pressure is slightly er the wrong type of er the work will be still continued on that, but also in terms of Bungay itself, we're looking at whether county management can look at this and sort of if you like identify it, so we haven't abandoned Bungay, far from it, we're still concerned with the, we've got the, the base of the facts still go on er and, and we're gonna continue on Monday. Mr anything you want to mention? Chairman I think I have to offer an apology to members and Mr in particular and the town of Bungay with a rather erm over which sentence expressing the press release, I mean we are continually trying to issue news items, press releases, progress reports and anything we're doing and usually the press are very good and quoted for a basis, sometimes they get it wrong and mangle it up with some bits of disaster, on this occasion that is not the case, the, the actual press report did determine the phraseology used in my in lease them so I have to accept the responsibility for the phrase to act of your recommended this morning so it down sake, could abandon ideas which they can buy it, of course those crazy ideas used in and out of the court is what matters. The report does make it clear that perhaps sake the weak case at the moment foresee Bungay bypass, but the matter is not concluded yet, we are continuing to work on it and its justification hopefully as recommendation make there, but we do seem to have made little affect of this particular press release, I can only offer my apologies Chairman. Thank you Chairman can I, can I come back? I, I, I accept this on this, on this particular matter, I would like to add erm on C E G traffic manager as a tem as a temporarily lease because, I mean let's face it unless we plan ahead we are going to be in a hell of a muddle, in trouble. Alright, fine, with those comments can we ask you to accept the recommendations? Agreed Mrs do you want to come in? Erm, yes, can I ask please is this er, if it were a bypass this is it long term? Which I mean is after something of ten years in which case erm I would have that there's a thorough investigation so that actual, you know, er progress back it around the town as well as possible, er need money put into it, but I think that that's what some of these places with, with no hope of a short term bypass need. I've also have an application Chairman if the committee agreeable that the as a temporary release measure, or as temporary release measures from Mr suggest that. Can we ask what temporary means? Right after the A T traffic management has, has temporary release. I don't see it. No I don't No? No Recommendation as on your paper is that agreed? Thank you very much indeed. Paper T six six seven wilful bypass. Thank you Chairman, erm in this report an interim mistake on the progress so far and the commissioner to investigate both your bypass and show little justification for a bypass, just the consultants have recommended that options were released there should of taken for public consultation and the improvement should of and carried out with its C six O two road which is the main link between the airbase and members are recommended that they approve these two course of actions, thank you very much. Sir, yeah thank you Chairman I hope members will accept this recommendation in paragraph two three and two four says it all, no need for me to say anything on this matter, these figures are thank you sir. Can we accept them? Agreed Agreed Thank you very much indeed. Er the Thank you Chairman. This report implies on progress in the the prime factor at present is to ensure that all land need for the schemes should protect against other developments and that flexibility is divided in construction of the A twelve and further development, that's all I have to add Mr Chairman. Yes thank you, fine. Can I Mr Chairman Of course. first start with very quickly That's right of course you see, er, have some er, just a few comments, I mean I'm not disagreeing with the outcome of that. I certainly Mr Chairman welcome this paper erm and I know today that I think possibly the main reason being erm, I could be deemed also been through and through today responding to our local issue and that maybe due to May fever, I don't know, erm, in really accepting acknowledging as I have done in the past your efforts, erm the county surveyor's efforts for this part of Suffolk I do again bring to your attention and I don't think is being critical in that the Barnet by bypass is part of a far bigger jigsaw and that jigsaw I say not but it stretches from here to Ipswich and it stretches from here to the Norfolk border. Now yes this is very very welcome indeed, but I do see it Mr Chairman in the experience of the past and that really with the hard work that you both have put in as a piece of paper it is now in the computer as far as I can see and I think there is a term now within agriculture and I will give you an example of this and I think it now, it may apply I think to our road system particular particularly in the north, north Suffolk, yeah I think the term is set-aside, and I hope that some time central government will acknowledge that within this eastern region certainly the Lowestoft area and Waking area we have very great problems, because these pieces of jigsaw do not come into the full picture, they're put in place now and then and later and in apparent it is giving us a very great problem certainly within the last the area and so on. We cannot get our raw materials in, we cannot get unfinished projects out, so please can we push with the dealing of the A twelve so that we can get in and out of the south? Can we get our link roads in? Can we get our northern spine road finished? Er can we get our eastern bypass finished? There are so many parts of this jigsaw that still are not in place and again Mr Chairman through you, I know you have similar to this, this case although you put it strongly it has to be widely publicized, we must be linked, not only to the rest of the country, but even more importantly now linked to the continent, welcome very much indeed, but not in place. Yes I hear what you say, er in fact recently we had a request from the local member of reporter to erm again join with him in beating the drum formally so that it moves on the A twelve and the other issues was over, something which we can easily draw attention to civil servant and of we are doing the very best we possibly can. Thank you. Chairman, Chairman Yes could I also remark to erm Councillor made as regards to the er any progress to er, to eliminate these er primary bends, which one of the most dangerous sets of road Yes in the area, very, very busily, a busy road and erm I know er, er speeding the main, causes the most accidents, if, if, you probably right, I mean speed is the main cause, I use that road way at night con , conforming with all traffic regulations, been overtaken by vehicles at speed. Right, er thank you. Can we move on please to page six six nine, Mr Er this report refers to just the new road terms within the appropriate switch of transportation strategy, which as you know represent other proposals relate to certain facilities and off street parking, bus priority and major park and other aims to resolve problem of traffic suggestion. The bullet avoids in this, well very briefly, erm about for half a dozen of them, first of all erm, I'd like members to be aware of the increasing interest being taken by the Department of Transport in the Ipswich transportation strategy and the Ipswich traffic study before that, the predictions we have from our consultants for the year two thousand and six and particularly their interest in their own trunk road system around Ipswich and the capacity of the Orwell Bridge, so that Department of Transport in Bedford are suddenly come to life to see what's happening and have requested access to the information we have required from previous investment and consultancy work and the panel of members, the joint panel of members Ipswich, Suffolk recently gave approval to expose for being their findings of our work to the Department of Transport, which I think is a very good move and, and only be of some valuable to us ultimately. The report also deals with the environmentally impact reassessment work which has now been completed in respect of options for the Ipswich multi- bypass and the east bank I can tell you Chairman that a preferred route will be offered for approval by this committee in January in respect of the east bank the work has come to well in hand on development and drawings to show that proposal. The public consultations on options for the Ipswich northern bypass is being lined up at the moment at office level for mid nineteen ninety three, there's still quite a bit of work associated with the preparation for that preliminaries that you see, but a more measurable benefit I think Chairman is er that the, that before there is a recommendation that the threat of widening road can now be lifted, er along with the consequent with the planning guide, with no less than one hundred householders suffered er over recent months. And also capable of being abandoned, lifted, deferred, set aside, ignored is the option are using if report authorities own decurion system within the west bank in order to provide improve road access er from the west end road, that option is also to be, to be erm abandoned, thank you Chairman. Mr Yes briefly Mr Chairman I sent a simply acceleration in meeting so I won't keep you. Here, I'd like to say that I, I do very much welcome the abandonment of the two wayside routes it gives me particular satisfaction because you recall earlier in the year there was some irresponsible press comments on the subject which greatly upset a lot of people Absolutely who thought that their houses were going to be demolished er preferably on Christmas Eve or that and so on, erm, erm, I, it would be nice in fact if the er Ipswich evening tabloid which gave us prominence to this rule er would give just a little space to er this latest development, erm but I would like to, not being excessively caracole I mean reading this document I do feel a slight er switch on your comments on er Pipers Vale, er which you note, there are no er nationally er or er common species which sounds as though you have designs on it, erm I, I wonder if this would be the place to ask you, you know, to make some sort of statement about Pipers Vale, you know that we are basically looking for a route which does not touch on Pipers Vale Well in fact, in fact if you will see or some sort of reassurance for it you can see in fact you know the position, for every option adopted in January I think the er, some of the things I've seen will in fact will minimize the impact upon Pipers Vale, but I think that, I think we'll have to wait until after Christmas to get the er final recommendations from the er from the Mr It's unlikely there will be any significant impact on Pipers Vale, could we say that? I think that's Go on force yourself Mr Chairman Yes, Mr Erm, yes, as you know I'm a member of the Essex traffic group and we did state at the time there will be no looking into or no pulling down of any type of property or building, yeah, but it, erm the Council went ahead and looked at Wordsworth Road Yes and knocked down a hundred and fourteen properties that's right and to me it's a complete waste of money, erm. Well forgive me, the, the reason for that is, it was explained at the time if one's going to defend the decision of where you're going to put your roads, then you've got in reality look at all them options ridiculous some they will be, whether they dig tunnels under the Orwell or knocking down Wordsworth Road I mean it's all got to be looked at. Yeah I know, but that's no option is it? Because we've said, we've stated that there be no pulling down of any type of building. Sure, we've got to defend our position at a public enquiry. Erm, also I've been I did phone the office up because I wanted to be report on the environment impact Yes er assessment yes of erm Pipers Vale, erm how much did it consult, how much did the consultants charge the county for this? How much is the cost of the er impacts on er I'm afraid Chairman we don't have the final account here Erm Any ideas though? What sort of figures we talking about? Well I'm sure that we could of got it free through erm Suffolk Wild Life Trust and it Well will it every, every recorded species from insect, animal, bird life, flower is in the Ipswich museum and also helped by the Suffolk Wild Life Trust, I've got information by it right here Why is fair, fair enough, I mean we're gonna have the full debate okay, the full debate in our January meeting I'm having a dig now cos I won't be here in January, thank you very much, erm also, also my town councillors have been asking the county officers for information on the so called secret road, what's, what's the Say it, say it again on the so called secret road, where, where's the so called secret road go, it's been in the Evening Star we have asked the, the Borough Council list and the Borough er the Council has asked erm for information of this road and they haven't even been replied to. Chairman I must respond to that, that the work secret road is not appraise donated to this organization, I think it's one latched onto by the press to develop some headline, er nobody's ever used that phrase about anything being secret in this organization whatsoever, the simple fact is that these drawings for your approval are not yet finished, that's the extent of secrecy, my staff are still working on them, they'll come secret road is a phrase conjured up by somebody seeking the headlines isn't it? Borough Council that er and as the er and Chairman I must say that as to request from County Council at Molds and County Council at Harson, from the Ipswich Borough Council for their copies of the plans which you have not yet received, I have to decline the protocol it takes that this committee is the first to see the county surveyor's proposals, and I can't give any other elected member within Suffolk prior treatment over that to be quite honest. Erm, can I ask this committee then erm I'm, I've enquired yes erm the west bank option for widen worsen road to be abandoned, that I quite agree with and design on, and then follow that, I'd like erm do environmental report for members to be or for members to look at the environmental report before it comes here. When do have assessment the Vale's Mr ? Chairman I have a copy of the environmental impact assessment report in respect of East Bank options, West End Road and Ipswich Northern bypass, they've been on my desk from for no more than one week, we are still studying the recommendations, the recommendations have to be embodied within the ultimate report for this community in I just can't release that report in environmental without perhaps compromising in some way of actually saying to you in January. Well can we, can we put this back until the February meeting? Yes, the extent of January's and Highways Committee. Well what's the good of, of us or hear both the honourary report when they bloody send the report. Well no, the money has, the assessment will be paid for what, what the surveyor is actually saying is the actual recommendations and comments and that in the environmental will be incorporated in his particular report, he is a county surveyor, he will make recommendations based on that report, that report will be available to you. Will that be a verbal report at the meeting, or No will it with the all the assessments are available, and Mrs will confirm as the same as the cycling issue for example the value and assessments will be made available, these are vast documents of many pages, if you look at the actual, the final page you'll see there in fact that the on paper will be available this, this will For all members? constitute eventually a background paper to the January report and all members will have access to it. Would erm, would the Chairman send me a, a, a report of this before the meeting? Yes Thanks yes I will that'll be great. yes I will. Thank you very much Chairman without erm Right, I think you have spoken Mrs but go on No I haven't spoken but very quickly please, come on. I, I was just going to say that the county surveyor said that everything comes to this committee before anything else happens, but of course it goes to the press before it comes to this committee and that shows with, with the No, no it's not true , that's not true. it's reported in the press very often before it comes to the committee What actually happen in, in fact, the papers are released to the public and so they and it's reported in the press and then the press pick it up Yeah and then in fact the press have a, apparently to seeing these papers, how many days beforehand Mr ? The same as we do The same as us probably and we but before it comes to this meeting No Yes it's the public comment, these papers are in a public domain Yes obviously because of, of the information lapse, now the decisions are not known to the committee of actually emphasize, what Mr, Mr is actually saying is the ideas and the, the, the suggestions of this particular route will be incorporated in this report and should go before this committee and he cannot give a preview of those ideas to anybody else I accept that I think this should be adjourned to half past two but can I, can I just say can can we have an up to date figure on the environmental impact analyse The cost? Yes We can't give that to you Can't, can't you give us a rough idea? Estimate I'm sorry I've actually asked that question and while we're discussing it, unfortunately we cannot do so, as soon as I actually get a figure and I'm quite prepared to release it to you. Would you? Right. So are we saying Mr Chairman that, we er launch ourselves into an adventure like an assessment without actually having an idea of the cost? Do we just pay the bill at the end of the day? Obviously have some indication of what someone's gonna charge That's all we're asking for but the final good is not but that's all we're asking for and move to accept the recommendations Mm Chairman I honestly do not have an indication of the final amount of costs, this often happens with consultancy work, it's like answering the question how long is a piece of string, you don't know until you've reached the end of it. I have delegated authority to other chief officers to report to the consultant, I have this is the manner in which the consultants were engaged, we chose quality, expertise er above all else in doing this work, which is clearly going to be challenged from every day here on, so the issue of having an agreed finalized figure will cost early on, pay on the compared to the importance of getting the right consultant to do the work, alright? What I, what I always lose track on, I mean, why is that the cost and the by actual figures Yeah will that satisfy them? No what amazes me Mr Chairman is that here we are, we're being cost conscious on every ground and we're saying we're making a statement that we enter into an exercise that we have no idea, we're not asking for the actual cost, we are asking, we are asking you must of had an idea what it would cost or I feel Mr Chairman that that, can I put it mildly, lack of planning and certainly financial planning possibly There, there's no lack of planning, the appointment come on been re-delegated, the Suffolk and he has delegated powers in fact to appoint consultants, which is what he's actually done I said that now in terms of actual cost in particular, I'm quite prepared to release those figures to you once Mr has checked them gone back to his office, which is in Ipswich, I'm quite happy to release that information to you, but at this point in time Chief I cannot say, yours can promise you is that commissions awarded on basis of competition, we were looking for quality, we invited bids, we a brief specification and receive responses from consultants, what we don't have, unfortunately, practically everything else with us this morning but that one thing the estimated final cost of this work. In that case then can I now move you on to ask You haven't ans answered my question Mr Chairman, I asked you why did the Council vote to this museum on the Norfolk enquired by trust which to be given you by the Suffolk Authority Wild Life Trust Nothing to do with us to give this information What's the matter of importance here? I, I were Where the consultants went I will deal, I will deal with the action point that if in fact we are challenged upon the confide way of we have got to be, have confidence in our, in our consultants, that's the important thing. Chairman, the, the point being made by Mr is covered in the manner in which our consultants who are they contact the organization of such a Suffolk Wild Life Trust, I know the representations are embodied within the main report written by , so they haven't been overlooked. And that is another recommendation before this committee Er Chairman I want to make a point relative, very quick point relative to the northern bypass so Mr said that officers are proceeding with the preparation of possible routes, will you undertake that er members be er, er advised of er these discussions before it reaches committee stage? Yes, yeah and I move recommendation on Thank you. Thank you very much indeed. In travel paper six seven O Agreed Agreed Agreed And paper E seven five Agreed Agreed Agreed Just one, just one yes Mr Chairman six seven one, my report does indicate the officer who's made the involvement, and he had to work in the past, the work erm, the amount of work that's created backlog mainly because of staff shortage on research side. Though the commission is now involved with a grant of forty thousand pounds, the situation has improved considerably and to bring the relevant matter up to date, er recently the dispute has been looking, the dispute of and last week we launched the parish part scheme at erm Wash and Washbrook, erm this scheme erm scheme or the will be available from one, first of April and up to sixty parishes will be invited to sign agreements in the first year. The scheme, the joint Suffolk associations representatives from these organizations from twenty parishes were heavily involved in the scheme will be invited to attend the meeting at Newmarket on the twenty first of November er Any, any, any, any comment? Well thank you Mr also the work, work of, of the sub committee and thanks er for answering the questions, right can we move on? Yes Mr do you wanna speak sir? Thank you very much Mr Chairman, erm yeah I've put my hand up three or four times, but er bridges Mr Chairman I would like to emphasis on the bridges, it doesn't the width of the bridges, yet bridges will be replaced but er, I think we must concentrate on the decisive people as well to get these places on I know that the one of the things that we saw open last week was a hissing gauge which was designed so that even disabled could produce them. Can we move on erm papers E six seven two Yes Mr Chairman Yes I should thought Mr Chairman that number nine one B that erm they could of found a within the department without having to really take on extra ones. Mr Chairman I would like to also the fact that I entirely agree Mr Chairman Mr Chairman could we adjourn and come back after, because I think we're going to erm the way this committee is going. Well if you knew the traffic situation first off you wouldn't suggest that You wouldn't suggest that Maybe, maybe we could press on shall we? Yes I think in fact with the er indulgence of the committee we need another ten minutes, I think er, I think we would in fact please erm T six seven two Chairman I've nothing to add to this particular report, agreed. Agreed Chairman can I just say in connection with this sir Yes and I'll be very brief and that is with all this erm extra work coming in in the day of high technology, isn't it possible to devise some scheme where they can go round and spray camp which leaves an invisible but detective in a way of magnetic or something er marking on the pavements, in New Master this week we've seen a eruption of white, yellow, green and blue erm spray paint on the pavements, all by different contractors or is it not possible to do something in this state of day in high technology Chairman we've This town sorry, Mr Chairman we have regular meetings with the Suffolk utilities and er this point can be made to them, although each of the utilities has it's own colour, so that then perhaps those intended which are holes that have to be repaired, but certainly I can, I can erm understand Mr 's concern and I will put it to the next meeting of the Suffolk Highway Meeting this week. Mr Chairman I'm Yes er going back to er nine one B, erm, with the increased erm use of consultants for the workload erm of the department I am convinced that Mr can find erm, er staff within the department to carry this out and I think this is just erm a little bit of empire building. Well you Ooh Ooh time when I first came to . And how old were you then? I should say about six or seven. What year would that be? Tt Let's see, I'm sixty one now, so sixty one that's er twenty one isn't it? Twenty one. Yeah. Twenty one ye Nineteen twenty one when I first came to . But it had been just just a wee little village then. We had we had the two schools, the School and the what we call the Boys School, that was the other one on on the green and it the girl's school, near this school, you started there as an infant between five and seven. And then the girls stayed on till they were fourteen. But when the boys became seven they they went on to this school on the green. Now the village green in those days was all ashes, completely all ashes. N not as it is today, beautiful green grass and we used to play er cricket, football, marbles er pitch card, ring tor, er duckie stone, and all that of course the village in those days was divided into two parts and if you lived over 's Hill you was a downtowner. And if you lived this end of the village you was an uptowner, see? And we used to arrange football teams, cricket teams, during the before you went into school, playtime and very often when you came out of school. But if you went over the hill, after school time, then you were in for a fairly rough time the other end, you were challenged and all sorts of things. And of course there were no houses down where the village ha past the village hall in those days. I think Row was about the last row in and of course you'd got all the fields, Gardens and what have you. And there was nothing till you got to the Grange, absolutely nothing. And there was just, well Road, other than er the Estate was pretty well the same as it is today, very little improved. And the w the road might have been widened but the houses are the same and er the er of course with a lot of The old factories have been pulled down, Mills was pulled down, that was a v very prosperous f factory at one time, when I was a boy, but er I'm afraid that went according to you know the lack of trade. It was er The village centre is about the same as it was when I was a boy, more busier of course, all the private houses that were on the front, you know, Street? That's all been altered,i they've all been made into shops and spoilt the you know, the and there used to be old 's, the shoe shop and Mr. 's watch shop and Mrs 's pastry shop. Mr , the bar local barber, who's son lives next door, for years, he used to start at nine o'clock in the morning and finish at nine o'clock at night. Still cutting hair at nine o'clock at night and shaving people, penny and tuppence a time. Old Mr , the old er, our only, as I could remember,centurian , died when he was a hundred and two. He was going to have his hair cut w in every and a shave Mr er 's barber shop right up until practically the morning he died. And he did his own gardening, right up, when he was a hundred, he was fit as a fiddle when he was a hundred, doing his own gardening. Where about did your family live? The first house they lived in ? The first house that I can remember was on Road. That's just by where your friend lives. lived in that house there and it was three shillings a week, I think it was, two up and two down. One biggish living room and a little back kitchen with no water and no sanitation and if you wanted to dispose of your water you'd have to take it out on the roadside and chuck it down the main drain. And you used to have to fetch your water from the pump's head, just round the corner, outside toilets, we used to have to go about fifty yards to use the toilet. And then you'd share it with somebody else on the same row. Yeah. And it was a fight for the f towards the end of the week it was a fight to sort of say, Well,Shan't be able to move it,use it until t the man comes. But although in that house there was eight of us That was your? Mum and Dad and six kids, there was four in one bedroom, me sister, me and her my Me two sisters in the slept in in a double bed in me Mam's bedroom and we four lads slept in the back bedroom w w whi which was just just big enough to get a double bed in, as you can see, and there was two that slept at the top, and two slept at the bottom. And you can guess what that was like with four four of us in bed,Hey Wi move your feet. And and of course y you didn't have extra blankets in those days, you had to fetch your Dad's topcoat up and put on if you're cold. That's sort of business. What did your Dad do for a living? Well Dad, he worked in the ammu in the munitions at Coventry, down Lane for the Humber people, during the war. That's how he g He's native is here, he's a native of , there was a very big sam family of them, about seventeen brothers. And they always formed the Village Church Choir,, see? But he was tt er a twist hand in the hosiery trade, making socks, and he worked in the last mobile, not mobile, er mechanical stocking manufacturers, owned by my uncle, Mr Frank , in Street and th what we used to called Street. It was never known as Street in those days, it was called the Street. And they had a big tt gas engine there with a great big flywheel and you can see these machines today, they didn't make them round, they used to make them flat. See? And i the bobbins an and that used to run across like that, the shuttle always used to run across like that From side to side ? Aye. And er great big pulleys with three inch leather belts, if they'd have done it in, er do it in these days and the factory inspector would have cut him to pieces. And I can see the o old father when he used to have s want to make the mo the machine immobile, while he did something particular to it, so like you switching the electricity off, well,h he used to have to take the belts off. He used to get this brush handle and shove it in between the belts, like that, and twist it off like that. Then when he wanted it to go again he used to get the th the belt, the leather belt, and er sort of hook it on to the lower end of the cast iron pulley and follow it round until it went on. .And that's how they used to start the o and the old gas engine it used to pop pop pop, pop pop pop, pop pop pop pop. .A y That was the last one of the mechanized o Well, it was the only mo er mechanized stocking stockinger's shop in the village. The rest was all hand operated, which was , was infested by stockinger's shops in those days. That was the framework? The framework knitters? Yeah. And you can You can see the n the buildings And there are one or two of them pulled down now. I don't remember all I The last man I can remember working one was Mr , Joe , and he was down he The last one I can remember, as I say, was being operated in in the yard just down Street. Opposite to Mr where Mr Fred used to live, at the back of his house. That was the last one I can remember being worked there, but I do remember Frank , where me Dad worked. Then of course, me Dad, when that closed down, it was like everything else, it's as bad as it is today, for jobs. They couldn't get work and my poor old Dad went miles round these outside villages, on a a old lady's push-bike, trying to find work. And the work they'd go for They were building their house, they'd v volunteer to take the footings out, or dig trenches to, or find out which farmer would have the threshing engine to do the, you know, to help them with the threshing, which was arduous work in those days. Fetching coal and water for this poor old steam engine , taking the chaff away, which was a filthy, horrible job. . Carrying sacks of beans and s oats, up into the storage block in sixteen stone bags and twelve stone bags. And how they used to They used to put them on like a You know what these two-wheeled barrows like they put the sacks on, don't you? Well, it was a similar thing to that, only bigger. tt They'd got two handles which was b made it mobile, two wheels, and used it Have four sacks at the end of this threshing engine, hanging on little hooks, and and a bloke there seeing that it got filled alright and it when it was full, they used to run this thing underneath a sack, crank it up by hand, like that, till they got it to the required height, then nestle it on their shoulders, you see there was a There's a there's an art in carrying c In carrying coal and there's an art in carrying corn and there's an art in carrying beef. There's an art in carrying everything, which makes it easy, if you know how. But if you don't know how, it'll kill you. Same as all farm work, see, farm work They don't know as they're born these days, these youngsters don't, when they come to talking about farming. used to have to w run the old b back the old horse and cart into the co crew yard which had been standing all year with about umpteen beasts on it, trampling it down, more straw, trample it down, more straw, trample it down. Then in back end they used to empty this crew yard and you used to have to handle all that with forks, muck forks, they used to call them, and that was big biggest fork and by God, they used to pull your heart out. You can guess what it was like, straw and everything, being trampled down all winter, sodden with with water and everything. And then when that was done you used to have to take it to the field,and put it in we we used to put it in big heaps and then come back, fill it up, and then go out and spread it. And So the o the old farmer used to go along with his one furrow plough, and a pair of good horses, and it was no mean feat. I mean it th th they were called farm labourers in those days, but they weren't labourers, they were clever men, clever men, make no mistake about that. I mean today, you've got to be an educated man to know how to even, they've got er tractors and everything, but in those days you'd got to set your plough furrow out so as you you could run your plough down your first one, and then as you as you ploughed your first furrow out you'd got to plough your next one into it. Ten inch furrow. And keep old Dobbin in his in his furrow. One in the furrow and one on the stubble, see? And you used to do that at a ten inch blade all day, up and down that field. Day in and day out, today they can Same with old mowing machines, they used to go out To open a field up in those days, they used to have to go round with a scythe. Go right round a f these the field and cut your first swathe out and tie it up with a a load of the straw that you'd cut and bind it up, bundle it up and shove that in the hedge bottom. Then the old old binder used to come in with two two year old stalwarts, horses, and he used to go round this field and it used to take him days. And then after the first seven or eight s cuttings, then they used to come along stooking. You used to get two shears underneath your arm like that, and they used to drop them down like that, across your knees and top them like that, see? And you used to put eight to a stook, that was so it would dry out, you see? And er and when that was been in the field whatever days, depending on the weather, if you'd got a good dry summer well you'd perhaps take it in in after a week, you see? And then we used to and they used to come along with the old cart and start leading. And when they'd finished milking at, they'd usually start milking about half past four in the morning, some of them used to go delivering milk and then they used to go leading. What we call leading, that was picking your corn up. And they'd knock off for a bit of dinner, come back, and do the second milking. Wash your cans up erm and er and then they'd go and finish off in the corn fields. And I used to go down you used to see all the mams and kids going down the moors here, taking their dad's tea, down in the fields, so they could have a bit of something and then finish as got dark. And then they'd wind their way home with the old port and everything. And hay harvesting was a different kettle of fish altogether. Admitting you went in the fields, but you didn't open the field up in th erm with a hay harvesting, you used to go in with your cutter, straight away. Take , you didn't bother about the headlands, you'd do your headlands after you'd mown all your and then of course then that was left to dry, after two or three days, depending on the weather again. You used to go in the fields and turn it and when it had been turned they used to start leading. And i if the man in the field had got a grudge against a bloke who was stacking i or taking off in the stack yard he could make life hell. Cos there's a way of putting hay on the cart and you used to have to start one lot in the corner, one lot in the other corner, another lot at the back, another lot at the back at the other side and then you'd fill in your centre. See? And when you'd got your centre filled in, you used to start again,, one in the corner, one the other corner, one between the eyes, one in the middle and back again. Now if you'd got grudge against the bloke who was taking it off in the shop, in the farmyard, after when you got back home, of course you had to come I mean they didn't stick it in the field, like they do now. You used to have to bring the stuff to the farmyard to store it, you see? And if the old boy in the field had got a grudge against the bloke taking it off he used to shove it anywhere so he'd have to pull it off, instead of following the the seam round, you see? By God it was hard, it was hard work in those days. And see the same with mangle tagging,dunnet tagging, sugar beet pulling. Sugar beeting in those days, you used to stick the old plough in, plough them up and then we had to go along knocking them, to knock all the soil off, then chop the tops off, put them in heaps, go along with the old horse and cart. Load them up and then t take them to the heap and ready for off again to the market. did it, it was all road transported in them days. M sh you see that I was saying, to be a farm labourer in those days you'd got to be a clever man, you'd got to know how much wheat to shove to an acre, no waste, you see? You couldn't afford the waste. Even though it was cheap in those days the farm farmer couldn't afford to waste it. Oh no. And then of course your sugar beet went direct to Colwick and it used to go by horse and cart in those days. And er but your y mangles and your potatoes, they went in pits, in the field. And of course you your mangles was for your a and your turnips for your Winter fodder. And that was another d another task. You used to have a special chopper for your mangles and it was like a big mincing machine, with a great big wheel on, and you used to fill it full of er mangles, or turnips and it used to come out like chips. And then you used to mix it up with bran and oats and cake and that sort of stuff, for the horses. An and then we used to have to and there was no no such a thing as bales in those days, duckie. No such a thing as bales of straw, it was loose hay stacked, and you used to cut it with a big hay knife. Oh, great big hefty thing it was, it was an art to cut hay, with these big knives. And then we used When it g we used to fetch it off then like, cut it and then fetch it off in sheaths, like h , you know, like a big slice of bread. And my God, again it was hard work, we used to put it in this hay chopper, pile it in and chop and it used to come out like chaff. And that was for your horses, you see? An and they had to be fed. The horse man used to have to go before anybody else, to feed the horses so that, and groom them, currycomb them, water them and do everything, before any of the farmers dare take them out on the fields. Yeah. So were these temporary jobs your father had on the farm? They'd do anything, my duck. Did you used to go and help on the farm as well? Oh aye, of course you do, you had to do, you used to go tater- picking, my duckie, for one and sixpence a day. And if you were lucky, and you got a good farmer, he'd let you take one o what we call roasters, home. So you your Mam could shove them in the oven and roast them for you, take your own bucket. You'd be, oh perhaps twenty or thirty of us, in these fields and you used to do so A length, what you call a length. You'd perhaps have three of you picking up er the potatoes and then another length, another wat another lot of kids, another three used to do another length. And then when the old spinney used to come up again,if you were lucky, he'd probably He had a probably a little wait before you'd finished the other, you see? Keglet pulling. Stone-picking. Oh, singling, mangles, turnips, anything like that. One and sixpence a day, but Mr was the best paid, was two bob a day. And we always u Everybody used to try and get to 's. This was while you were still at school ? This was while we were still at scho Well, you used to have a week off of school, my darling, for tater-picking, only. When I was kids. Did you do any other jobs, part-time Paper jobs while you were still at school ? Paper boy. Taking it out and all these what's name, half a crown a week. On Lane, walking it. Come rain, come shine. And you had to put it in the letter box, you daren't leave it in the in the . Milk round, with the old ladle and jug. And you'd be surprised what you had to put your milk in in those days. Anything. And we used to do that twice a day, my darling, not once a day, twice a day. And then come and then wash your own cans out, and you used to carry them all through all round the village. Then I got a bike, and I was alright then, I could put two milk churns on. But you couldn't fill th the milk churns then, you used to have the half pint and pint measures, hanging inside your milk. And it was milk, full of cream. When you've got up next morni And then we I can tell you another thing, and very few people know about it, especially I bet you don't know wha what they called beastlings, do you? Well in those days beastlings was a lux it wasn't a luxury because you could get it for nothing. They used The farmers used to give them to you. And it was milk, after they'd milked the cow first time, after she'd had a calf, well the first milking, they usually got blood in the milk, you see? But the second milking, and so forth on, perhaps the thir second or third milking they used to get milk, what they called beastlings and it was very often too much for the calves to take, so she got a full bag. So they had to draw it off, you see? And if anybody had got a cow and it calved, we used to go to him and say could we have the beastlings, please. Then your Mam used to make p pastry and put these beastlings in and make a beastling custard. . And it was beautiful. You didn't need you didn't need eggs in that, so forth and fifth, in that stuff. Full of all the vitamins and everything. You used to And then you could also go to the local farmer's and take away a quart jug, for two penn'orth of skimmed milk. And that sort of thing. Did your Mum do any sort of work at all? Mum, she'd got to do, darling. Six kids, Dad on a few shillings a week, when he was out of work, Mam had to go out scrubbing, washing. My poor mother had got corns on across her her knuckles, right to the very day she died, from scrubbing for different people, and skivvying, up there. these skivvies, in, what we called skivvies in those days, at these big houses up round a about the village. Y you got about twelve and sixpence a w a year. And w half a day a w a week and had to be in by nine o'clock. My mother was was servant to , at the croft up there,about fifteen bob a week and she didn't know when she used to come home. Eight o'clock in the morning till eight nine o'clock at night. Cooking dinner, and if she got a what's-a-name,if they'd got parties on, she used to stop there had to stop there till two. What happened to you kids while she was out working ? we had to look after ourselves. And if me Dad wasn't home at work,a out at work, he used to have to do it. My father, six kids on a Friday night, we used to put a bucket of water on the hot sink, on the old gas stove and my father used to bath us six kids in front of the fire. Friday night. And never once on a Sunday morning did that man fail to get up and cook our breakfast and polish our shoes, so that we'd go smart and good to Sunday School. Never once. Yeah. My poor old mother, and me sister finished at the same big house, servant there for them. Same Oh. And the mothers had to do it in those days, half a crown to do all the washing for this woman. And you used to get up and light the copper fire, fill this old copper, which held about ten gallons, and then put plenty of stack o slack on it. And it was there was no what's-a-name in there. I can remember me first Mother's, what she called, automatic washer. By God, I can remember that as if it was yesterday. And it was a little square thing, about two foot square, with a er and about eight inches deep, tt and you used to put the clothes in, with warm water and your your powder, close the top and you used to have a handle, and Like that there, and you used to be backwards and forwards, like that,, with this paddle going backwards and forwards inside it. And that's what they called the first automatic washer. Aye. And of course they'd never They very rarely thought of washing clothes in tap water those days, it was all rainwater. Every house had got it's own it's own rainwater tub. And by God, it were a luxury if w you washed out holding hot water first thing in the morning. You used to go out in the in the wash-house and wash yourselves, under the cold water tap. Up to the eyes in snow, up to the toilet which was about twenty yards away, that was where lived then, in the house where Building Society is now, lived there for thirty four year. Where's that? On Street. Can you remember things that your mother used to do to make the money go further when I can. when you were short? Oh, yes, well I mean I o obviously I When she worked She used to get up I'll tell you another thing that she used to do. She used to get up in the morning, every Tuesday and Friday and catch the half past seven bus, from to Nottingham and another bus down to Boulevard, to Miss 's, do a day's skivvying and come back again, and then do her ironing and so forth, at night-time. And my God, they weren't such facilities as er what's-a-name, if it was er wet weather. You Every house had got lines across the the kitchen, you used to put hang the washing in the kitchen, to get it dry. On the fireguard, above the fireplace,i there wasn't many houses that hadn't got a line across the fireplace, like that. And you'd put handkerchiefs and collars and that, and you used to have to starch the collars in those days. Robin's Starch, Beckett's Blue, and all this and that. And then of course they used to iron them. And it was hell's own job with sitting in the kitchen at night-time, a little kitchen, with washing hanging above your head, so the poor bugger could get it dry. This was other people's washing that she took in ? Aye. And her own. And we didn't We hadn't got a wash-house of our own, we used to have to go to Miss 's, down the road, to do our washing. Borrow Miss 's. Why was that? You hadn't got We hadn't got a washing we hadn't got a wash-house. Oh, you were lucky if you'd got a wash-house attached to your house, in those days. You had to go to go to Miss 's and have it do it there, borrow her copper, and wringer. Blimey, no, it was a luxury if you'd got a washer then. And i and of course when she worked When Mum used to work in Nottingham you could er be assured that you'd have some bacon on a Saturday, and Sunday, because she used to call at T. N. 's in Street, and buy sixpenny worth of bits of bacon. Which was, say, when they'd started the the roll of bacon, there always used to be some little bits before they got the full rashers, well, you couldn't sell those, you couldn't s I mean even though things were tight in those days, you couldn't sell any sort of bacon, you either sold best back, or you sold belly bacon. And the bits that you got off, well, we poorer families used to have it then. Had to have that. Eggs were twenty four a shilling, little little eggs, looked like bullet eggs, came from Egypt. You still had to ask your Dad for a top off the egg if you were if you were a poor family. So only your Dad got an egg? On occasions, yes. When he was in work, and then sh we used to go to the local butcher's shop on a Saturday night, with the old bag, six o'clock Saturday night to Mr 's. That's where 's is now on on the hill. And my Dad used to say Go to Mr 's, and tell him you've come for your Dad's meat. Half a crown and that's what you got. Now half a crown in those days was a lot of money, you had to a full day's work for half a crown, make no mistake on that. Half a crown And you used to come away with a big piece of flat brisket and if he's got any sausage left, or bits a of pork pies, he used to shove a bit of that in. And Mr , me Dad wants to know if you've got a ham bone? He says one day, me lad,if you don't come back quick, he said, I shall sell it, threepence, and there was a lot of ham of it, in those days. Bones. From the butchers. Potherbs. What? Can you explain what potherbs is ? Well, I told you what potherbs was, potherbs is what you buy, you go and you perhaps get a couple of sticks of c celery, that was taken off the side, you know? The trimmings. Carrots. Parsnips. Turnips. Onion. And they used to make two penny worth up and that's what they called potherbs, in those days. Why they were called potherbs, don't ask me, but it was always known as potherbs. Two penny worth of bones from the butchers, and two penny worth of potherbs. Now that used to go in the old stew pot and they used to boil the bones till the meat dropped off, and the vegetables And that was your most of your meal for the rest of the week. And in the morning you used to have soaky very few pe very few lads had breakfast, bacon and eggs, in those days. It was soaky or porridge. What's soaky Porridge? Soaky? Soaky was a basin full of bread, with sugar and milk and er a basin full of tea, with sugar and milk, and bread soaked in it. And you used to have that, that was your breakfast. And we Nestle's milk. Nestle's milk conjures up a lot of memories for me. . We had it in all ways, shapes and forms. Spread on your bread, eat it by the spoonful, great big chunks of thick bread with Ho e home made jam,y your Mam didn't buy those jams in those days, me darling. She made her own, did she ? She made her own chutney, and made her own pickles, even though she was at work. She used to make all the And er home-made wine. And always in my attic, in our bedroom, as kids, you could always see dried dock leaves and dried stinking nanny, for poultices, for abscesses and boils. Always. And tea. You always had a bush, that was horrible! Detestable stuff, but my Dad always insisted that we had an egg cup full, once a week. What was if for? To keep your blood clear. Mm. And always on a Sunday morning, when you got up, Sunday morning, epsom salts. A little, enough to cover a silver threepenny bit, in a saucer and some tea on it, and you just had to take it, drink it. To keep your bowels right. And as I was saying about all this, you're saying What did my Mother do to eke it out? Eke the food out? She used to go to the butchers and get breast of lamb, scrag-end, sheep's head, pig's head. And if she got half a pig's head she used to cut the pig's head in half and used to use the top half, and that was where the ears was, and everything, boil it until all all the meat dropped off and then she used to put in er a big basin, scrumple it up in her fingers, put some of the juice in, and put a seven pound weight on it, and a saucer, and make brawn. Now the bottom half,th it's j jaw, you used to boil that and make chap of it, pig's chap, and that was a luxury. Beautiful. You don't s see it today, but's it's beautiful. What is it? Pig's chap, it's a pig's pig's jaw, the bottom jaw. Th this part here. Cheek? Y yeah. Mm. Pig's cheek. But it's called pig's chap,in those days . . And on a S Monday, it were always killing day at the Co-op, always killing day. Then on a Tuesday, they used to make the black puddings, the plonney the scratchings, the potted meat, and they used to come on sale. You used to see all the scratchings and all stu steaming hot, with the black puddings and the plonney shining like silver sixpences. And the pork dripping, beef dripping. Oh yes, it was marvellous, that's how they used to make it, in those days. Then they You dropped the old er breasts of lamb in the old stew pot, chop it up, and then if there was any left, me Mam used to take it out, so we could eat it cold. Beautiful s er breast of lamb is, if you've never tried it, my duck. Get a breast of lamb. Get your butcher to bone it, make a nice stuffing, roll it up, wrap it in a nice bit of tinfoil, stick it in the oven and you've got a beautiful meal, me darling. Or the old roast brisket. Brisket. You used to do the old brisket, in the saucepans, along with the potherbs and so forth. Pearl barley, you don't hear pearl barley now. By God, it was a must in those days, pearl barley. Y What was it used for? With cooking, like rice. And we used to put it in stews. You put it in stews, my duck. Oh yes, and er of course mostly, in these outlying districts, you mostly grew your own vegetables. And it was always a ritual for the gardeners to have new potatoes and peas ready for Wake Sunday. When's that? That was the last Saturday in July, the nearest Saturday to St Peter's. And we always have used to have that on a Wake Sunday. New potatoes, home grown new potatoes. And s i if you were lucky, some ham. Then on a Sunday night, the village, what they call wakes, they call them wakes in those days, not the village fair, it was the wakes. Mr used to open up his dragons and start his steam engine and driving the organ, and he used to give an organ recital every wakes' Sunday night for the cot fund. Cos we used to have support so many cots in the children's hospital, and we used to run concerts. Mr Len , well known man. was running all this for the Ruddington cot funds. .was the fire brigade chief, was a newspaper man , and this was how we ran in this village. We ran all sorts of little things, see? And it was a very friendly little village. My mother, apart from being a skivvying, she used to go out with along with Mrs , doing the hatched, matched and dispatched department. Now, do you know what that is? Well, that's the births, marriages and deaths. And if anybody was sick, in those days, and they were nearly dying, we used to sit up with them, night after night. And if they died, we us I helping my moni my Mother many at time, to wash them down, before they put them in the coffins. Put the false teeth in, and the pennies in the eyes, and and that sort of thing. Did she get paid for doing that ? Aye. And then you'd send for Mr , the undertaker, or Mr , and he'd come along and measure and then make your coffin. I've got my Mother's bill here, I'll show it you. That was what, that was nineteen twenty eight, when I started work and I worked for and M. ,House, Road. And er I used to get se seven and sixpence a week, seven and sixpence a week. And of course I wa I was due to learn the trade, I wasn't an apprentice. I was due to learn the trade from start to finish with the with the idea of getting myself up to getting on the road. So I started as an errand boy and half a crown a week was my bus fare, which give me, entitled me two journeys, a return journey each day. From to Nottingham ? From , it was fourpence, return. Or if you wanted to go home for your dinner and go back again in the afternoon, well, that was four and sixpence, which entitled you to do a Saturday journey. And you used to have a little ticket, with the days on, and they used to punch it with the old, you remember the old punching machines, don't you? Well they used to punch your ticket, with a little hole in, so that they'd know you'd had your journey. Now as I say, I started at that price and I used to have to help in the warehouse, in the packing and so forth, and then if there was any parcels to go into Nottingham I used to have to deliver them, by hand. And carry them, either carry them, or push them on a two-wheeled trolley, all through the round the lace market to 's, and various other And if I were lucky, and the 's van was going round the lace market, and I'd got three or four parcels, I used to go with little Tommy and his horse and van, round the lace market, and he was delivering dress goods then. And then he used to pick the undress goods up to go to G and W 's, still down Road. See? And er of course, as years went by I got to a to be on the invoicing side, after that. So you? That was an office job was it ? Yeah. That was making the invoices out for the parcel. Oh, and then I went u started as a packer after that, packing, which was an art, in those days. H we had to pack hampers, and so forth, see? And big parcels. And then I went on invoicing. And then from invoicing, I went into the factory, of course, to learn how the goods were made, which was very interesting. You see the i it was er we used to make curtains then for Littlewoods, Littlewoods as it is now, they're still, you know, the they were about the forerunners of the er tt this er catalogue business, and if they gave us an order that would last us a long time, and that usually the eight points, which was meant to say there were eight threads to an inch. That's how you measured curtains in the quality of the curtains was so many points to an inch. The more points to an inch, the finer the goods were, you see? If it was just a six point, or a seven point, then it was a real coarse one, cheap, for American markets. But we used to Littlewoods used to give us an order, for one machine, or two machines, and you could keep your machine on this one particular set of curtains, without changing your jacks, without changing your beams, without changing your bodies, you could work straight on and on and on. Well, they used to do them at fourpence ha'penny a pair, and each one must be put in a big envelope, so as it could go out on this catalogue business. And that sort of stuff used to go to America, because in er we had quite a big American market in those days because they didn't wash curtains in America, they used to put them up until they dar until they dropped down and then put new curtains up, you see? And er we er tt we er we made er a lot of blackout stuff during the war, we had they called the Federation of British Industries, which was an annual fair at Birmingham, and my firm used to s used to exhibit there. Bu and er of course, most of your work was done from these Federation stores, stalls, Birmingham and London. And I recall at the beginning of the war,they got a an almost light-proof black out curtaining, and I can re see it today, The Queen bought some, they were on exhibition. Buckingham Palace I should say, not the Queen, but Buckingham Palace bought some. And I can remember tenneyex telex coming through and we did our own er er signs in those days, you know, er advertising placards, it was red hot on the press. Blackout curtaining, as bought by Buckingham Palace. And of course, you couldn't keep pace with it, because Buckingham Palace had bought it you see, and it was good. What were these blackout curtains made of, then? Well it was er, a dense, thick, curtain, so dense that it was hardly visible, because in those days, during the first world war, during the thirty nine forty five war, blackout was essential. You can't remember the blackout, can you? You see the idea, was if you had lights in your house and there was just a kink, or chink, they used to call them in those days, they could be spotted from the air, so th You either had wooden shutters at your window, or blackout curtaining. You weren't allowed to show any lights. Even the, what few bits of lorries were on the road, they had a special mask on with er a shield over the top, so that the light wasn't visible up above. Cos, probably you don't realize that, even a cigarette light,if you drew a cigarette, like that, and er and made it glow, it's visible for quite a few hundred yards in the darkness. And consequently we was all subject, and you were fined very heavily if you were, if you tore these what's- a-names, blackouts, that's the name. And then of course, we we also made the, at my firm, made the er Battle of Britain curtain, which was very famous, in those days, and I think they're still I used to have one but I don't know where the devil it went to. Cos it, most of the things got lost during the war, you know? Dra That was the You don't need to be against that wall Tom. Ooh Make sure you've got lots of space because you know what you're like, you need lots of space don't you, for yourselves? Nice and comfortable. Now P C knows that I've got this smashing class. And they are a really nice class P C Are they? We don't know the gentleman's name with the tape recorder This gentleman is Tony Tony. Tony. Tony. Shall we say hallo? Hallo Tony. Hallo. Right, now then. So this is a very special project now, okay? Really special, and you are going to do your bit and you know P C well enough to do your bit. Okay? Mm. Right Tony's come here and he's gonna tape recorder everything that's says, that is said, your voice, my voice, so we want it all nice and properly done because er they're all gonna make a special project out of it, reference to spoken word and the written word so you must ask your questions nice and clearly, yeah? Yeah. You've all got questions, yeah? Yeah. Because we've got twenty five minutes but twenty five minutes can either drag or can fly by. Let's see if we can make the twenty five minutes fly by, yes? Oh these are a nosy lot aren't you? Eh? Good. Alright then. Ready to start? Yeah. Right, let's go. First question. How do you train a a police dog? How do you train a police dog. Right. Before you can become a police er dog handler Yeah. you have to do two years in the police force anyway, you then have to show some kind of application towards it. You are then go on a course and you are selected. If you are selected to go on another course, you are introduced to your dog. That's down in er Kent somewhere, I've forgotten where it is but it's down in Kent. While you're there you have thirteen weeks down there, which is like three months, with th with the dog. If you pass the course down there with your dog, yeah? You are then sent back to your force which is a which will be the Essex Police because I'm a member of the Essex Police. Alright? You then work with your dog the whole time and all the time you're working with your dog, naturally enough, it's a young dog, so you're being tested and evaluated the whole time, so your training continues. But initially you have to show a skill, or some kind of application, to be a dog trainer. You go away for thirteen weeks on a course with the dog, you're introduced to the dog you're gonna work with, yeah? Yeah. And if you pass that test you go back to your police force and you are evaluated and having tests all the time. Well that's how they train them, they train them in er what they call public order work, in the case of chasing people and all that, they also have tracking and all kinds of things, okay? Mm. Is that i does that answer your question? Yeah. Alright. How many of you have seen policemen wor Shh shh have you seen policemen working with dogs? Yeah. Would you What do you think? What do you tell P C that you've seen? What did you see? I've seen What did you see Nigel? I suppose erm I went to this club, went to this club with erm dogs showing erm tracking down er Tracking people down? Yeah, tracking people Burglars. Burglars, yeah. Was you, was er everyone in this class here when a gentleman by the name of erm Steve brought his dog here? Yeah. Oh that's when we saw Do you remember? Yeah. Yeah well what class are you in now? Mr Now what, what, how long, how many years have you been here, this class? Er three years. Five. Five. Five years? Yeah You may have been in they may been in the infants when Ooh think Who can remember that police dog coming here? Yeah? Well he's still working but cos that dog's a lot older, and a lot more grumpier they can't take the dog to the schools any more. He's not so, he doesn't like it coming to schools any more. He's a, he's a bit like an old man now, slightly bit grumpy. Well I hope I've answered that question. Next question. How do you become a policeman? How do you become a policeman, right. I can only pass comment on when I went through my training because it's all changed. Right, what happened was I sent away a letter to the Essex Police Force. They sent me a reply back and I sat an exam. The exam had basic maths, basic English in, which I passed. I then was sent a letter telling me that I'd passed this exam, I then had what's known as a medical to check that I was okay, there was no, I had no faults or injuries or health problems. I then did a physical which they made me run a mile and a half, did press ups, sit ups, which I passed. I then had to go and have an interview which I passed. After the intervoo intervoo I'm sorry Interview. Thank you, the in after the interview I went back to Chelmsford where is the headquarters of the Essex Police Force and had to do a course for two weeks. After I did the course for two weeks I went down to a place in Ashford and I was in Ashford for twelve weeks, came back to Chelmsford, did another two weeks and then I was released as what's known as probationer constable, a probationer constable. At that time you had to stay with your tutor constable who looked after you for twelve weeks. You went out and about for twelve weeks with your tutor constable, if you like, they call it puppy walking he was the highly trained policeman and I was the new policeman, I was with him for twelve weeks. After twelve weeks they decided I was okay,okay, you're allowed to go out and work on your own. And that was how I was trained and that way I was trained seven and a half years ago, it has now all changed again. I don't know the full system but you are being evaluated and tested the whole time. But the testing period the testing period is two years. Within that two years, any time within that two years you can basically be given the sack for not coming up to the grade or not coming up to scratch or sometimes they prolong your pr probation for another six months so instead of being a probationer constable for two years you're a probationer constable for two and a half years. Yeah? Yeah, thank you. Understand that? But within that probation period you can sort of like get dismissed for any time quite easily. Does that answer your question? Yeah. Hope it does. Yes? What is it like being a policeman? What's it like being a policeman? Great fun. Great fun, I really enjoy it. Do you know why I enjoy it? Because it's not boring. Every day is different. Like teaching. Like teaching. Every day is different, that's what makes it interesting. Because from the age of seventeen to twenty nine I worked on building sites, and that got boring so I changed and I changed and became a policeman, and I ca became a policeman when I was twenty nine and a half and it's, I've enjoyed it ever since cos every day is interesting, every day is different, every day is unusual. Right? Does that answer your question? Right. What is it like in court? What is it like in court. Right there are two kinds of courts that policemen, well there's several kinds of court, but the main courts that policemen go to are a magistrate's court where there is what's known as, they are magistrates or JPs, Justice of the Peace, and they sit there and you have to give evidence. That's quite scary. But the really scary place is what's known as a crown court where you have to give evidence at crown court. Have you seen the judge with his wig on? Yeah And the twelve jury? And they're all staring at you and when you're in the docks giving evidence, it is very very frightening. I've done it now about four times and I am still scared when I do it. When I've gone to crown court I am still petrified, that is really, really scary cos everyone in the room is hanging on your every word and if you make a mistake you start to sweat, your hands go clammy not very nice. Does that answer your question? What made you want to be a policeman. What made I wanted to be a policeman? Right, what made we want to be, I wanted to be a policeman when I was very young but never had the courage to do it. So when I got older and wiser I thought I'll give that a go and I've enjoyed it ever since. And now I look back on the years I wasted on the building sites and I should've become a policeman ea a lot earlier cos it's great fun. But perhaps you can, perhaps you can kno knock up jobs around the house for your wife and perhaps you can build houses. I'm not that good, I'm no D I Y freak, even now. Yes, your question? Erm what kind of erm equipment do you use when, when erm you've been reported a, a robbery? Alright, what kind of equipment does a policeman wear, right. I didn't bring any of it with me but everyone's seen the tall hat haven't they? Yes. That's what's known as the custodial hat, that's one, that's one Shh shh shh Yeah? There's the flat cap that I use in the car, yeah? You've all seen that. You've seen the mac, you've seen the yellow florry jacket, the fluorescent jacket that's another piece of equipment. My truncheon. My radio, the radio I carry with me and the radio that's in the car. Boots, trousers signs as well. Who's seen, who's seen police signs out the back of police cars that says slow down, danger? Yes,c or another sign that they put up by the side of the road is was you passing this spot this time last week did you see anything. That's in case there'd been a nasty accident, say there was an accident outside the school today, yes? Tomorrow they'll try and put up a sign to ask anyone who was passing if they saw the accident, yeah? We carry all kinds of equipment, our radio. We carry a little small radio that's the local one so anyone in Harlow carrying a radio would be able to talk to Harlow police station, yeah? But there's also a radio in the police cars that you can talk all the way over in Chelmsford which is twenty two, twenty three miles away, so you can t talk to someone in what the Essex Police call their information room, that's another piece of equipment. Another piece of equipment we've got is a pocket notebook, we write down everything we do. When I go back to the police station I'll write today that I've been at Harlowbury School all day doing a school visit and a school talk to different classes. That's my pocket notebook and I keep it up to date, that's another piece of equipment I use. Another piece of equipment I use is my boots, my shoes, my trousers, my clever truncheon pocket, it's a long thin pocket which I can put the truncheon in and it hides away. I didn't bring it here cos I'm not allowed to hurt my knee yeah? All bits, other bits of equipment as well, you've got sometimes in the back of police cars you've got brooms and shovels to clear the mess up off the road, yeah have you seen a policeman clearing up the road, saving people Yeah, yeah. driving over it and getting glass in their tyres? Yeah? All kinds of equipment. Different every day cos everything is different all the time, it keeps changing. Does that answer your question? Great. At the back young man. Er what was your first idea of what you was gonna be when you grow up in the first place? What was my first idea when, when I was little? Yeah. I wanted to join the army would you believe but I thought I want to join the army. I wanted to I want to but I might change. You might change, exactly, like I did. My brother's joined the army. Oh. I might join the ar I wanted to join the army first, yeah, and then I changed my mind. Well I think I changed Do you wanna be a policeman Oliver? Do you? My brother's a policeman Yeah a lot of people a lot of people wanna be policemen. I do too. But they change their minds they change, they become good at something else. Lot of, a lot of er lot of people always will change their Like a road worker. Like a road worker, anything couldn't they? Yes I know I'm joining the army. You wanna join the army do you? Good for you. Cos Beg your pardon? Got it down on a piece of paper . Oh have you? What's your question? Erm why do you have to be strong to be a policeman? You don't have to be strong to be a policeman. You don't have to that's er that's not totally true. You've just gotta have your wits about you that's all. Gotta be erm, not clever, not brainy, I think you've got to have common sense. The greatest a astribut attribute to be a policeman is to have common sense. What's common sense, you lot? Think about it, what's common sense? Think. Er like if you're really dumb common sense get er No see no no no, you could be very very clever very very clever and have absolutely no common sense, you might be, still be a very clever person, be brilliant at maths but have absolutely no common sense. You might not ha know how when someone says to you er thirty five pence please for a newspaper, you might not have the common sense to realize You haven't got it. You haven't got it, exactly. You must have common sense, that's most important. Next question. What is it like in the police station? What's it like in the police station, right. Has, does anyone watch The Bill? Yeah. My dad does. Sorry? She's contemplating the emotional No no no, apparently Yeah but come on okay, apparently erm after chapel apparently once, okay, she did everything but shag Harry in his study. Yeah I heard that. No but erm apparently they, they were She's a at Max and Jamie's party they were getting off with each other Oh yeah, and she and she was arched over like this, yeah, and they were getting off and she went for his belt yeah and she was gonna undo his belt and Jules went Laura Laura not now, you know, just don't undo my belt. She's such a rough bird. Bird . Bird . recording again. No I'm not. Yes she is. Tomorrow. Yeah but how much have you done already? I'm er I'll show you. Cos I've done absolute cack. I've done the bit where like on, is it D? Like and all that lot? Apart from that that's it. erm just, just so fucked with this. Erm Have you actually like translated it and stuff? No way. Not a word. There's so much to do and something about money, that's about as much as I know. It's about money, look, that's how much I've done. Oh good. Good. I can't do that first bit, I copied that off this bit's not too bad No that's pretty easy. I'm just pretending we're not doing C again. We don't do C. Don't we anyway? How's this? Well that's what you told me. Oh is this bit okay erm you do that and then you just put like That's what I'm gonna put. Have you done this? No. I'm gonna get fucked over this stuff. It's not a problem,it's not a problem . Yeah but Carolyn goes to fucking . What's happened with Jenny? Jenny who? . Don't know. They don't know yet. Why what's supposed to happen then? Well she was Dave in lesson time apparently. Yeah I know. Isn't she gonna get a shite on? Oh! Oh gossip! Gossip! George have just had a cuss outside. Yeah I know. It's obscene. How fucking disgusting. It is rough, I'm sorry it really makes me sick. How desperate is he? How desperate is he? Very, he must be desperate because she is such a rough tart. What is his problem? I don't know. God has he got no taste? No he hasn't at all. God. God. God. God again. God look at the size of this fucking hole I've got to live in. How long are you all staying here for? Fucking ages, I don't know. Oh well. It's so infuriating and have you seen the Cambridge photos? No. Oh my how drunk were you? Why have you got oh you know a grapefruit between your legs A melon I was giving birth to it. That's nice. Mm. Yeah well shall we go and socialize? Yeah. Shall we go and socialize? Come on then love. You'll just have to make sure you clean your sheets after that been jizzling all over it. No I took the sheets off, I made him put his own sheets on. Yeah? Took my pillows, took my duvet. Oh that's alright, it's not a problem. Thing is there's no way Gemma and and that are gonna be allowed to stay upstairs when they've got boys downstairs. Why, do you think they'll a paedophile or something ? No but I mean I just can't see that. Why not? It's like not moral. Not moral? Cos that's why they had to move out of this house in the first Place. Oh well. No but who do you want to snog? Don't know! No well there must be a list of people or something. Oh yeah yeah I just keep a list of people who No no write another fucking list every single time. I don't know, I just want to snog. Josh? Josh, Phil. I told Phil I fancied him I went Phil, you're my man. What'd he say ? He goes oh oh Kath thanks we followed him over to Albans and I walked in and he goes, he goes oh it's my disciples you just follow me everywhere don't you? Oh God we just fancy him so much! I went yeah Phil we all love you. Stupid. Dick . I want to know why Si hasn't come up tonight. He went home. He was feeling rough. He looked it baby. Shut up. You love it. I don't love it. I just wanna snog the boy again. Oh God this whole school revolves around snogging people, going out with people, shagging people. It's just a nightmare. It's just like a real system isn't it? Mm. My last school wasn't like this at all, probably cos it was a day school Yeah that was that was a convent. break it. It's not a problem. No that's probably cos it was a girls school? A day school Mm. and a convent. That would explain it I suppose. Yeah exactly. Oh I've got a really sore neck. I need some strong man to massage me. Oh you're such a whore. I'm not a whore. Yes you are. Fuck off. Fuck off fuck off No I really am getting annoyed now. Why? Because I dunno because it was you know if you get off with someone on a Saturday night yeah? Mm. Then and then you get off, if you get off with them again on the Sunday Mm. and you assume something's gonna happen and just cos, I mean I was too embarrassed to speak to him on like Monday and Tuesday Mm. it's now ended up like nothing's happening. But it's really obvious that we're gonna get off with this weekend cos we both keep making endu innuendos about it. baby things like that. Urgh urgh. Exactly. Some of the dreams I've had are just really odd, sorry but dreaming about a white hearse is just That's so head fuck, completely. I had an odd dream last night actually What? I dreamt I went I think I went to France, I think I was, I went on a day trip to France Well at least you didn't dream about shoving a blue towel up your trouser leg, well done. Yeah we went to France and then the thing about the bath came back and we all had a bath but we were all wearing clothes Weird. nothing sexual about it. Oh no nothing sexual about it, no What you and me with our clothes on? Oh God I thought you were Urgh. I thought we were talking about Si, I'm really really confused. No no no no. Queer bastard. Who's a que me? Mm. I'm not queer! Oh mm. We're gonna spend the day in London, go shopping Guess what my dad told me today? What? He says erm he said he might er might be able to get me a car for the Christmas holidays Ah! You bitch. just for the Christmas holidays. I haven't even passed my bloody test yet for fuck's sake. Wow! I couldn't believe my, I found out my friend had passed, I was so shocked. Mm. What were you erm what were you s how come you were waiting for Jim tonight? Outside. Ah cos I was just lusting after, no no no no no no, no, no You thought I'd got off with him for fuck's sake! Oh did Lizzie tell you? Mm. No no I, I don't know, I sort of thought something might've happened. Oh yeah well you know, oh yeah No well we th what you, what were you No well I was, I was just telling him something and I said I'm not telling you till er ten thirty just to keep him in suspense. I can't believe I know he's such a dick. Why didn't he go and bust them? Maybe he was bored with busting people. What happened? Okay erm Jim and Si were over by the trees having a fag and walked So you could see Jim. right past them with his dog and he didn't do a thing. Well like he walked up towards like facing the direction where they were standing Yeah, exactly. and you could see Jim's like, his body shape Yeah you could tell cos you know like he wasn't close enough to the trees No. there was like the light between them, and they were like so obvious there's a person over there, and he was, he looked and then he, he just walked, walked off towards his house. That nice. Yeah but they pegged it back afterwards. I know. They were cacking themselves, it was really funny. I cannot get busted. If I ever got busted I'd be in such fucking shit. You smoke don't you? Yeah er no I , didn't even congratulate me when I walked in tonight for my wonderful singing . Did you solo? No, don't be stupid, I can't sing great yeah she's so Who, who? Has she got a really good voice? She has, oh it's incredible. She's on a full sch music scholarship you know. Really? Mm. Yeah they pay for everything. Shit! I wish they'd pay for me. Just like me, ha ha ha. Pay for me to doss yeah. Yeah right. Right My plane ticket's even paid for I don't pay a cent to be here. Really? Yeah. You're not paying like school fees or anything? No. I mean I have to pay for my books at the end of the year but that's all. Jesus Christ! Er prep was a nightmare my middles no, no Oh you took prep? I had to take prep, yeah, and my middles were being really really disgusting. They were going They're such terrors I'm gonna have to take my brother for prep. Can you believe that? the girls take the removes instead of the Miss instead of the middles like we used to Yeah. I'm gonna lose my voice, I think I wanna be ill actually so I can go home and don't, don't come back. No you don't wanna be ill. I don't wanna come back. You don't wanna be ill cos when I was admitted to the san I nearly died, I tried everything to get out the san and she just wouldn't I know, mm I think I'll just stay at home. let me. I think I'll just go home on Sunday and stay at home, go home and s tell my, pretend to my mum I'm dying like spend all day asleep. I'm going to the pub this weekend. Hello! Can I come and complain to you about please? Yes. Come on. What's he done. Fucking dick! Fucking hate him, fucking hate the fucking school. I went down to see Will at ten o'clock after Yeah? Yeah? my parents had gone Yeah? went down to see him and he was in his study because he, he, as you know I was with my parents Yeah? and he went straight back to his study and I thought I'd go and see him because my parents had gone Yeah? so I tap on the window, had just gone past and I was just about to go in his room, you know, cos he's standing there and I just tapped on the window come outside Nick had just walked by and Rick and were talking you know it's not like the dead of night and everything's quiet Yeah. he said to me it's a bit late to go knocking on windows isn't it, and I was like I didn't say anything I just thought well No. Yeah. But you can't really say that. and he said erm come on this is the boys' area or something like that erm and I just stood there, I was so amazed because he's wrong, you're allowed to go I know that's the visiting times you're allowed to be down there Yeah. till what, ten fifteen? Yeah. I wasn't in his study. Yeah. Oh what an arsehole. Did Will come out? Yeah, well no cos he just, he pulled the curtain I was knocking and then and then he said and er I just stood there he said like you know you're not allowed to be here it's too late, it's the boys' area erm come on, sort out, you know, come on sort it out you know like he says that He's anal retentive, that's what it is. He's what? Anal retentive . Anal retentive anal What else did he say? Did he tell you to go? Yeah. He said come on sort it out and I walked off and like I just walked away and Achil and thingy were laughing at, you know, cos not at me at how crap Yeah. had been and how I had to go away Yeah. Oh hello party Oh hello. This is a shock, no one ever comes down here. Bet it's all cos Nick isn't down there or something, no you've just been with Nick . Sorry. So I walked off so I said to Oh that's alright, fucking, fucking crap and as I was saying that my voice broke and I walked off and I started crying so pissed off, it just makes me feel such a girl. You're not allowed here, this is the boys' Yeah He's such an arsehole. part you're not part of this school, we're meant to be part of the school. Yeah. It's cos he's a fucking sexist isn't he? He's so sexist. biased. What did he say? He just, I went down to visit Will and I w would have got there like four minutes past ten or something and I n n knocked on his window and about Mm. just about to go in his room erm Will's study you know he said, you know, bit late to go knocking on the window, this is the boys' area er er you know, you shouldn't be here at this time of night, this is the boys' area. He's such a bastard. Yeah but visiting time is till ten fifteen. Yeah. Yeah. We invite boys into our common room, you know Yeah. Mm. erm you know And that's even closer to the girls Dick. Oh no, why didn't you say to him look I thought I was allowed to see er like Well I was going to, I was just gonna say, I didn't know exactly, yeah I didn't know exactly what to say but I felt really silly saying it's visiting times at the moment, or I'm allowed to see him now, I don't know I Yeah. Yeah well then you don't know whether he's gonna bite your head off, mm. I suddenly wondered if I was allowed Yeah He's such an arsehole. But I can't believe when he s called you a slut What! Oh my God at swimming! Called you a slut? She was chewing, okay, and I wasn't chewing gum though, I was eating sweets no you were like eating or something mm yeah. and he goes God you're such a slut or something, got really aggressive. He goes don't you know it's rude to eat in public. You girls lower the school down, you look like a slut, yeah? And I was standing there going Oh God, I would've crawled into a hole for the rest of my life . I, I was standing next to her, I was going Jesus Christ! I know, everyone was just going then erm I told my m my er parents and my parents said to me go and tell your house master so I told What a shit. told his wife and his wife went and had a go at him I would, yeah. and then, and then came up to me and said erm He didn't if you if you go and see this afternoon erm he would like to speak to you and I was like he should come and speak to me Yeah! Yeah. and erm So you went and saw him? so I went and saw him and he goes I didn't mean it as a slut as, as in a promiscuous woman so he goes, no he goes I, I mean it as a slovenly woman, like you're so much better! He goes I didn't mean to insult you, oh no sir, right, yeah! slovenly from time to time, yeah. And then he goes, he goes erm it's, it gets erm it really gets to me when I think people are chewing around school, I don't know what to do to stop people and I wasn't chewing, yes well it looked like chewing, but I wasn't chewing! Oh God it was so pathetic. But just to call anyone a slut is just so rude. It's just so rude, I know. I know you don't, especially an adult in this school calling someone I know. They're not adults in this school, don't worry. Oh yeah, My dad, do you know what my dad said? My dad was, my dad walked straight, just past him, was like where you are and my dad was where my feet are Yeah? and he goes that's that fucking arsehole that called you a slut isn't it? And I was like can you say it any louder dad as well like er he sounds so funny . Yeah he speaks and he goes you alright Kath and I went What! yeah hi My dad said hello to you? Yeah! How the hell did he know who you are? I don't know. Oh blimey . He just went hello Kath, I went right, yeah, yeah cos I do actually know who you are I just remember the time he came into erm and he had a fag and he set the alarm off. Are you recording that? Did he? Mr Have you recorded me complaining about ? Oh probably, it doesn't matter. Wait, Mr smokes Does he? Does he? Oh I thought you said he had a fag and he set off the alarm. No no no no no her dad had one Oh. My dad . and he set the alarm off Did he? When? Yeah. He came to see you, he came in with a fag, wafting it around the place Did he? and the, the er alarm started beeping inside the machine, we were going I didn't know this. oh my God, my God problem, problem. I didn't know this. dad walked up here, yeah, It was so funny. We used to do that all the time chain smoker. Should I do anything though? Because he was wrong and he just made me feel really crap. Mm right. Go and tell . Just go I was gonna but I, I thought, I thought if sees me when I come in, cos I had make up all down my face cos I'd been so upset, I got so angry with the whole thing Mm. Yeah. it just makes you wanna Yeah. and I've got so much work you just think oh fuck it it's Mr 's such a dick, I hate that man, he really Yeah I hate it when he, he makes you feel like God he makes you feel so crap. I really wish I wasn't here. That's what I was saying to Will and Did Will come out then ? Yeah he came out afterwards but I don't think he realized because he didn't come out Yeah. I thought if M if Dr looked at me and oh are you alright, I was that angry to actually say something cos I wondered if, you know, shall I, if I shut up Mm I never I never knew whether to say anything it's probably safest to shut up about things like that though to until erm until when I came back after I'd spoken to my parents that weekend. Yeah. Well you'd definitely got something but I I know. I haven't, mine's not quite as bad as that but er he was wrong I think. I know. Just say to erm I am er I mean Mr told me But the point is yeah. er we all hate the school and if we all hate the school, no wonder no girls are coming. Mm. If you hate the school, you're not going to say to someone hey come to Haileybury. Right. Right. purple skirt. Which one? How many purple skirts you got Siobhan? Two. She's got two. sexually frustrated. Sounds right. Oh you're sexually frustrated as well, that's good, at least I'm not the only one. I'll wear a skirt tomorrow. I'm probably the sexually frustratedest person in this school. Kath. Kath I'm gonna wear a skirt Yeah, why? Cos! I went for a MacDonalds after Really? Because I cannot find a fucking man. There aren't any nice men here. I know, they're boys. They're prepubescent dicks basically Yes no they don't have dicks, they have little knobs. so stupid. they're not used to girls being round till they're Yeah. in the sixth form. Yeah and also it's like if you a personality here then you're doomed. I mean when I got, when I got here okay er when I was in the lower sixth and I like sort of got in and then like it was so weird being, I mean I'd never been to a blokes' school before I came here Oh really? Really? so I'd never had blokes in my class, it was really really weird Yeah, I'm sure. and they were such a load of dicks when we first met, you know, and they're just like trying to impress all the time and now I mean you've been here for, what, a year and, year and a bit and And you know them and you see them when they look like shit in the morning and you see their Yeah exactly . I mean I went to a boarding school before I came here that was just like that but, but it was more like, I don't know, the guys there, I had more friends that were boys than friends with the girls, yeah Mm. because like I don't know, but it seems like they're, they're they don't, they're not interested in being friends with you er it's just like I wanna fuck you I don't wanna I don't really wanna talk to you Yeah. urgh! Who's a student here? I'll do whatever I feel like when I'm I was thinking when I've left the school if anything else happens I'll just feel really pissed off and I'm gonna write a letter and say, you know, now I've left the school I feel quite Yeah and I'll say, I mean you are the reason why I left the school, you know, none of the girls are happy by their upper sixth, in the lower sixth you might think it's alright but by the time Yeah but in the lower sixth the fucking rules this time last year that I know, it depends how much you've been caught for. Oh my God the time I nearly got busted! did you For fuck's sake, when I was going, when I Well have you ever have you ever been busted for smoking? No. When I was going out with Tom Oh yeah. erm you got busted in the lane didn't you? Easter term, Easter term, down the lane okay suddenly like torches it was ,, and They were supposed to be at a play weren't they? Yeah Yeah. and they got cacked on and I was going oh no no no, I don't smoke, don't smoke, don't smoke erm I was just down here with my boyfriend you know having a sly snog, you know Ooh ooh a snog having a slog, you know, behind the tree Mr yeah and I was being sly about it, going down the lane not standing right outside his house, right. Oh I just remember cacking myself it was just so, so scary. What did the boys get ? They got four I D Ts. Tom didn't get anything though cos I said he didn't smoke . Who's he? Do I, is he still here? He's going out with Lucy Oh yeah. but I can't, I can't, I don't know what anyone actually sees in her. She, I think she's fucking ugly. I she's fucking Yeah. and she's quite ugly and her shoes She's so make her feet swing along oh I love their platform shoes, I mean they're fucking rub they can't even walk in them. Mm. No I just don't, I mean I don't understand what's like if you see who's going out with people it's always the boringest people, I've never seen any of them smile, laugh, talk, they just, they just seem like to be shells of people Mm. Like People going out with people? Like me? like, like with no no no no no no no I'm talking about Yeah you're very boring did you know that? Yeah, yeah, we don't like you. like, like, like Lucy, I've never heard a word come out of her mouth. That's cos it's a She's quiet like that anyway. no but they go around with, she goes around with Katrina and Zoey and it's like a little clique Oh. I mean I like them, I like most of them Katrina's quite nice she has nice Katrina's really nice she's I like Katrina, I'm not sa I can't say anything cos I don't know them but it's just it seems to me like, like the boys must be intimidated by girls who actually What house are you in? Mm. Who have you got in your house? Oh you've got big schlong er Mark Oh does he have a big schlong Yeah, a very large one. Really? How do you know? I don't know, it's just Oh I've heard about that, who to someone told me. apparently he's got a It's Ally in who's got a really big one. Trina knows that he's got a big schlong. Alistair , the deaf bloke, yeah. I've seen it . Have you? When? I was lifeguarding at the swimming pool, I turned around and the silly shit was getting out of his school uniform, strip naked, was standing at the other end of the pool didn't say anything,Al Alistair , deaf guy Oh yeah. pulls on his trunks then he swims for a while, gets out, takes off his trunks, puts his towel round himself, rubs himself, walks round the pool a couple of times and rubs himself takes the towel off and puts his uniform back on and I was like Did you see it completely? yeah, well, you know Has he got a massive dick? I don't know I didn't stare that long . Cor! Oh my God it was so funny. House swimming when they're all standing up and sort of going oh no no, God cover up, you know I'm not swimming this year. No nor am I, But I'm gonna have to there are only two girls in the lower sixth. I'm not, I refuse to, I refuse to swim, point blank. Yeah but you've got, at least you've got, you've got four, Thompson's got most girls. Has it? Yeah. It did have last year. It has this year as well I think. Li there are four Yeah there's two She's a dick. Who is she going out with? Ed . Who's Ed ? Ed 's a dick as well. He is, I've seen him but I've ne I don't, I've never, like I've never spoken to him Heard of him. Why's he a dickish? What's wrong with him? Oh God Dunno he's just a dick apparently apparently. Apparently. Oh apparently! Can't believe it, my mum brought food for my brother up today for you. And you didn't br she didn't bring she didn't bring me any, she didn't even think to bring me my washing. My mummy brought me a bit and we're going out on Saturday anyway. I can't wait I'm going to the pub on Saturday! Where are you going? I'm going to London Duncan Arms. I might, I mean you don't mind if I No oh well actually we do, me and Ros want to have a quiet drink on our own, you know! Our pub. A quiet, a quiet Diet Coke, you know! cos there's no alcohol We're not drinking alcoholically on Saturday at all. Okay then. We're, we're on the water, we're on the water. Right, that's why you're going out for the whole evening, for the water eh? Yeah. It's better in the Duncan Arms than it is here right? Yeah, I mean, you know, I've run out of Diet Coke here so you know I'll have to go and have some at the pub, yeah. Yeah, right. Have you told Shit the last time yeah, the last time I was there I was so fucked, I had what a pint of cider, we did Tequila shots Ah! we're going like one, two, three down oh I love 'em. and then gin and tonics till they were flowing out our ears then me and, me and er Claire decided to go back early Is that like when you erm got off with Matt? Jade. Oh Jade? Mm. Oh that's right. Crawling back to house at quarter to eleven We've got ten girls. going shit. Miss goes to me, she goes have got ten girls we've got ten girls. where've you been, I went erm oh erm the taxi was late erm got caught up in traffic traffic in, in Hertford . Ha! At quarter to eleven! In Hertford! erm well,Li erm she, she goes well Lizzie told us that erm that your taxi was in front of hers, I went oh no no no, that wasn't me that was someone else. Thanks Liz . She, she got off with Si again tonight. Oh yeah I heard. Ooh. Do you think they'll go out? Do you know I wondered why they were suddenly Don't know. Is he? Yeah. Ah! I mean he's a friend of Jamie's anyway isn't he? She's s she's sorted for the weekend isn't she? Yeah she There's me single, a single woman Is Debbie going? Yeah. It's his birthday the day after Carrie's It's his birthday tomorrow. Oh day before Carrie's I mean, sorry, I knew it was the day after or day before. I think it's tomorrow anyway. Jamie who? Oh . He always intimidates me hugely. I think he's revolting. I've, I've never even talked to him No but just the way He's got such an ego He intimidates me the first time I ever talked to him was in the pub Yeah that was so, it was fucking random, I've never talked to him in my entire life, I ended up, after we all left, talking to him for so long Did you? yeah, he's a really What about? nice guy like about can't even remember now Ha! we ended up entertaining we ended up entertaining erm everybody that was sitting there, it was really funny and we were It's so cold in here I know but he can probably be nice like that but then he'll just change and become all cool when he wants to be Yeah. and, and drop people that that Yeah I mean I wasn't expecting anything like er erm like him being a nice person to me ever again but it was fun Yeah. for the time being, you know? Yeah. It was really quite funny cos everybody was laughing at us. Why? Can you believe this, okay, Hattie's Oh. What? Nothing. Hattie's parents came to the concert tonight cos Hattie's in the choir You told me, yeah. and er Hattie wasn't singing. Oh shit! She's supposed to be ill, it was so funny. She didn't even come to watch, what are you whispering about? Nothing. Tell us . Nothing! Yes! No no it's not a problem, you were talking about Hattie? No I've finished, thank you thank you for listening. She didn't even tell her that er you told me earlier I know, I was telling Kathy that's why? What was it, I wasn't listening ? Well fine I won't tell you this time! About Hattie, she wasn't in the concert cos she supposed to be ill but she didn't even come to watch and her parents came to watch her. Oh She didn't even tell her parents. Her sister's coming, well if she gets in. Yeah, she'll get in. Oh tell her not to Well we'll be left by then so Oh no, she'll get on fine. it's not a problem. Her sister's really pretty. Is she? Yeah I've seen her, she's really pretty. But she's really thin so yeah and she's tall like Hattie. Taller than Hattie! No she's tall and thin like Hattie. Yeah I was gonna say But she's got straight hair and it's Really? long and it's and it's, it's about the same colour as Hattie's, a bit darker I can't remember. Well I remember her and she's got a really really good complexion, bit like Hattie. I wanna complain, I wanna complain and I wanna make people realize She walks like Hattie as well actually. Oh what, swanning around ? Yeah, but she doesn't sort of go like this all the time though. How long's she been going out with ? Er six months no six months and a week. Oh God. It was her anniversary a week ago, no two weeks ago sorry. I've been going out with Will for nine months and five days! Whoa! I've been single for, now let's see Nine months and five days, you could've had a baby by now. No! Yeah. wishing children Oh God! I want a baby. No you don't. I don't my children would crawl away from home. Not now. I want lots of babies when I'm older. No! I'm really afraid of being shit I want two I want a girl and a boy. I want at least three but four I don't want any children . My children would hate me. I wouldn't want three, I wouldn't want I want one of each. I'd love twins. Yeah I've wanted a twin Yeah. I think it would be so weird to have a twin. Can you imagine two Kathy around the place. Oh God Would you carry another woman's would you carry another woman's baby if she couldn't have it? poor boys round here Sorry? Would you carry another woman's baby if she couldn't have it? Have her egg and, and her husband's sperm planted inside you? No. Don't know. I wouldn't. I'd be like fucking . Actually No no no I couldn't do anything disgusting like that. How can men, yeah,whe when they're sort of, when their firm's not okey-dokey Okey-dokey . okey-dokey how can they have someone else's that's been put in a test tube and kept fertilized and their wife's their wife. egg Yeah. cos it's not gonna be their kid is it? No. Yeah but they could still love it like it was their kid. Yeah. It's only like adopted It's like adopted why don't you adopt one, yeah. or fostered. people won't adopt because it's really hard to get a baby. your wife wouldn't it?be possessive, I wouldn't. I wouldn't want someone else, want another woman's egg to have A random man. my husband's my future husband, my husband Yeah. my husband whoever my husband might be Yeah. Cos you're not really thinking about who it might be! I'm not I'm just talking about my future husband, making the point that, I'm not saying I'm going to marry him. Did you know that there's like a huge chance that you'll marry someone you know by the time you're eighteen? Is that not scary as crap? Weird. There is not a single person right now eighteen? There's not a single person at Hailebury I'd even Yeah. consider Yeah. marrying. I know. It's disgus Even living with. Yeah or even grrrrrrr Well will they cos the thing the thing is What does grrrrrrr mean? It just means urgh urgh! But the thing is No but all the blokes are so revolting. the thing is that something must happen to them by the time they reach the age of twenty three that makes us want to marry them. George didn't shag Dave did she? No she didn't. No I didn't think Apparently she did but she didn't. Who's this? Pete apparently Pete made it up just to get erm get at her. The rumour's going round that erm Dave and yeah Well Pete walked in on them and apparently they were butt naked and shagging away and it was a load of crap. Who? Georgia and Dave though she's such a slag, I'm sorry but she Dave Er it only took you Half an hour . thirty three minutes. Oh to be exact, yeah. I hate . Are you gonna go out with him then? I don't know. Depends. Depends on what? Don't know really . Tell me. I don't know, it depends. I dunno we'll see what happens. I don't want to be a real Mm. Urgh God tomorrow. God who do we have? Oh we're talking about sex poems. Well we don't have to, we do change over now don't we? Do we? Mm. Oh Apparently we do. Apparently. No we do cos I've had three with erm no three and a one out, so that's four Yeah. got fucked today. Yeah I know, I saw Heidi when I was Well Sophie's er bloody erm allergic to alcohol and Heidi, she was so funny okay, she had, what, two Martini Rossos and she was fucked, totally. It was very funny. Allergic to alcohol? She's allergic to alcohol, she ge she gets really pissed on like one, two glasses of wine. Yeah but allergic means you come up in something. No I means, basically it means that it gets to her head really quickly like one, two glasses of wine and she's off her trolley. Oh I couldn't handle that. Nor could I. No but er I saw Heidi when I was on my way down to the grubber and Heidi had a slightly massive armful of chocolate, I was going what are you doing, she said I've gotta go and make Sophie sick I was going good grief, she goes make her sick if it kills me. Rough! Siobhan got off with Jim tonight. Yeah I know I told you. They're useless. I know. Urgh the mind's going. Is this ? Yeah. I'm really fucked off with this cold now. Mm. It's the weekend soon. I know. I'm going to the pub. What pub are you going to? The Duncan Arms. Oh I'll see you there. You going? Mm. Who with? Everyone who's going to Carrie's. Oh are you going, oh I didn't realize you were going to the pub I thought you were going out somewhere. No we're going to the, the Chinese Yeah. till about nine thirty then we're Yeah. going to the Duncan till about eleven thirty and then we're going to Carrie's. Oh fuck! Well I'll be practically gone by the time you get back, I mean No we get there at nine thirty you leave at quarter past ten. Yeah, oh yeah that's alright. Well it depends what but I'll, I'll probably come down, I'll be definitely down by nine thirty cos I Mm. won't even be eating at the Chinese. You'll get fucked. I will but I don't want to get fucked. Don't start crying. No no I don't want to do anything I'd regret with Si. Well what would you regret? I don't know, it depends what how drunk I get doesn't it ? You wouldn't end up shagging though. No. He's quite a forceful boy though. Say no more. I mean Jamie wasn't exactly forceful. No. He's such an opposite to Jamie, I thought they were like almost alike but they're not. Oh no, no two people are the same. Jamie rushed out pissed off and upset this afternoon. He was? Jamie. Mm. oh I'm going home now. Why? What was wrong with him? He's not still erm annoyed about rugby is he? Why has he got a D T? I don't know, he got another D T and he's, that's the fourth time he's gotta go and see the master about it or something. Oh shit. And that means he might get banned from playing rugby. That's scary. No Well his dad would absolutely go mental. Oh God, banned from doing rugby, oh my God. Yeah well his dad would go mental. Yeah I suppose. It was really funny I was listening to this story, it was about a toyboy Mm? find it it's the news Oi! No I don't know but on Saturday it's gonna be all like li little couples. Yeah you Si Carrie Eugene, Will Charlotta Kirsty John Kirsty John Chris Gemma Chris Gemma, yeah Heidi Jesse, Marcus and Phil and oh Jamie and John John. not invited. Oh dear. Jamie's gone and invited her. It's a bit of a problem. Only cos he wants to snog. I know. But he's in such a bad mood at the moment. It's his Mm. birthday tomorrow. I thought it was. I'm not getting him anything. I've got him a birthday card up there. He doesn't mean anything to me. Ah he's a friend to me. He is a friend. Actually I forgot about it or else I would've ma I would've got him a card. I thought you were getting pissed down Hertford today. I wanted to. I've got Ooh Yeah me and Roxy and Claire were in a real drinking mood. You should've done. But we didn't. Well you should've done cos I thought you were going to cos I thought yeah we've got, haven't got anything to do this afternoon Yeah. so I thought you were going to cos you didn't come back for a long time. MacDonalds. I had one. What did you have? I had a cheeseburger and chocolate milkshake. You didn't have any fries? I can't comprehend how you don't have any fries! I had some of Roxy's. Yeah but you, how can you not have your own? When I go there I wasn't, wasn't I wasn't hungry. if I, if I've got limited cash There were some peasants from they were all dicks! Some blokes that were just being real knobs. Yeah if I've got a small amount of money then I'll have, under two p er under two fifty then I'll have Yeah. a cheeseburger Fries. medium fries and a small Diet Coke Small Diet Coke yeah. and then if I've got a fiver I'll have quarterpounder with cheese Siobhan had a bloody MacDonalds tonight. Yeah she had it brought back for her didn't she? Yeah. And erm no I'll have a quarterpounder with cheese, large fries and a large vanilla milkshake Just and a apple pie apple pies are just so yu I've got to have a I've never ever had one ever. I really want to try a ch a MacChicken Sandwich. They're gorgeous. Are they really nice? Really nice. I'm gonna buy, next time I go to MacDonalds when I'm at home I'm gonna get quarterpounder cheese a MacChicken Sandwich, large fries and and a Just completely binge, might as well, yeah. Yeah basically I'm gonna do it on a, on a Saturday night or something. Ha pow! Have you decided what to have for your party yet? No I don't know. Have you told anyone about it yet? No. You're crap, I think I'm gonna have to start asking people. No. I fancy Callum. Do you? Mm. He's a moody boy, you don't want to No. Changeable as the weather I'd say. Mm? He's as changeable as the weather. Who me? No Callum. Oh. Yeah. Well I think mm Yeah he's the kind of person you fancy then you think no, I don't know, no I don't it's just such a dilemma. I do actually quite fancy I don't want to but I do. I really do. No you're just so good. left hand and a fist. Mm. Keep thinking my wedding ring Are you doing step aerobics tomorrow? No way! I c I was going to and then erm me and Roxy have got to do our French oral. I really felt like going to MacDonalds, I might get, if Helen goes down to Hertford I'm gonna get her to get me a MacDonalds. Yeah me too. Actually I don't think I can afford it if I'm going to If I've got enough money . No I'm not, I'm going to no if I'm going to the pub on Saturday and I'm going to the Galleria on Sunday. Sunday How are you getting to the Galleria? I don't know yet. Cost you loads by taxi. I know. I've got twelve quid for the week, I've got I mean we, we'll give you, I mean I'll twelve quid for the weekend. You'll never get for that will you? No. Well Siobhan might be able to give me a lift, me and There? Roxy a lift, yeah. And I don't know how the fuck we're gonna get back. Well it depends I could always phone up my mum and get can you pick me up from the Galleria and take me back to Haileybury please . And she'll go no. You reckon? Dunno, I might ask my dad cos he'll probably take us back to the pub Your dad's so funny. I know. We did ever such a sly one, me and Roxy erm Kath erm where's the loo, oh just round here, do you want me to come with you, yeah okay I was g I had to talk to your dad when you weren't there felt such a dick. We were having a sly fag in the ladies. I thought oh my God, my God, my God he's gonna smell it on me. He knows I smoke anyway so it's not a prob well not really anyway. He must know. I know he knows. We were having a massive a er conversation the other night about smoking, he was going oh well you know, you smoking are you, I went why, he goes oh we found, found a box of matches in your er top I went oh no no no, it's just for, for the joss sticks, yeah. He went yeah alright. I mean I've, I've smoked cos I was in France with him last year erm sitting at the erm dinner table smoking a cigar with him and my uncle Urgh! I like cigars. Rough. Only the thin ones, the massive chunky ones are rough. I was t I was telling about my mum today, I was telling her, him about Spain and stuff it was so funny. He was going what, your mum is mental. Your mum is mad, I'm sorry but she is. My mum is cool, I love my mum. Mm. It's three D day tomorrow Shit I haven't got my shades. My shades man! Can I borrow my can I borrow them? You can share them with me, yes. Have to watch things jump It's really odd I don't understand Si at all I decided, to jump back to that What do you mean? conversation. He's going on about damn baths at the moment. Baths? Yes. Only cos he wants to have you in a bath. I don't want to be in a bath with him, imagine, well how embarrassing it would be the worst thing. Why? Cos you're so self conscious of your body. So? You shouldn't be. I should you know. Why? I hate my body. It's rough. Bollocks. I do! Thin love. I'm not. I wish. I'm wearing me skirt tomorrow. But my bloody green jumper's all got Mm. and I've never washed it hand wash it. Flid! Fuck off. You can bung it in the wool cycle just do that. Yeah but I'm crap. Oh God what have I got first thing tomorrow? What have you got? I've got double out, I can sleep Cos I've got double geography. I can sleep till ten twenty five. Yeah but you've gotta get up for breakfast. Oh shit! I forgot about that. That's what I had to do this morning Fuck . when I had double out as well. So if I went to talk to Jess No that's not fair! Well don't worry, at least you can have some food and you won't be hungry in the double out. So I don't care I don't want any food. Tt toughie. Toughie! I want some Diet Coke, I want to get a massive thing of Diet Coke. Next term I'm gonna bring like enough Coke to cover the underneath of my bed so I can just not eat, just drink loads and loads and loads and loads and loads of Diet Coke so I can get thin. Mm just like me. What, you're drinking loads and loads of Diet Coke? Mm. Oh. I'm going to be on a diet all, all Christmas holidays apart from Christmas day. You'll be anorexic I won't. I would be if I did that, if I just didn't eat. I'm gonna I'm gonna do what I did two s er two Easters ago. Mm. I was bloody impressed when I was losing a stone and a half in in four weeks. Mm. Bloody pleased if I could do that again but I won't be able to cos I've got Christmas day put back it all on on Christmas day. I lost weight during Christmas sometimes. I'm going to try and lose half a stone in the Christmas holiday. Mm. Half a stone to a stone. My sister's lost If I did that a stone at the moment She's really thin. Well look at my mum then. Your mum's bloody thin anorexic, I thought my mum was anorexic when I went home the other day. Not the other day, when I went home for Easter last year Mm. she kept running out of the room and being sick and everything so I thought Bulimia. when we were having a meal and I was thinking that's nice! What? How pleasant, mum's being sick everywhere. I said erm is there a problem? No. Not a problem. I'll just break down in tears on your birthday, it isn't a problem What? Nothing, just murmuring. Mm. Is this enough yet? No. No. How much have you done? Bit. Yeah, I'm going to bed, I'm tired, I need some beauty sleep darling. What are you, are you doing as much of this as you can? How long is a side? I mean half a side. I dunno. About half an hour? I'm jam hot don't record me singing. Wouldn't be very pleasant. Have to get some more posters. Yeah. Have to do that bit there and that bit there and then the ceiling. Oh yeah, get the ceiling. Put mirrors on there, you know Yeah, yeah that's right. Urgh rough No cos erm I was, I was saying, I was saying ages ago that I had such a weird dream last night Oh yes. Sorry, just interrupting you Yeah it's okay. What, what was it? it was such a fucking odd dream. Okay I was sitting on the bench erm at the pavilion Mm. and Jim was lawnmowing and you were doing hard labour with Matt Oh yes you told me this that I was doing hard labour and he said I was building the building. Mm with the builders. Fucking weird. What were you saying? I can't remember now. Oh yes I was talking about baths wasn't I? Before Yeah. and then and then I was going yeah I really want to take, I'll have to take my stereo home and he goes yeah your stereo's quite big isn't it, I went when have you seen my stereo and he goes oh I came up the other day to see if you were in. I went why why, he said I just came round to your room and you weren't there but your music was on. I went yeah I was probably di dead on the bed or something, I'm always asleep, he goes no, no What a bizarre boy. like okay then Oh gawld, prep was just such a nightmare tonight. Urgh they were being really perverse. Worse than usual. Going through all the blokes I've got off with at home I bet. Did you want, did they go through all of them, did they get all of them? No they got erm tt they got most of them. Who didn't they get? Tt they didn't get five. Let me guess them. Yeah they didn't get him. Er Rob they didn't get. Rob erm Nick or or Nick Nick and Nick That's it. and Oh yeah. The obscure ones. The first one they got was erm Why do they think I'm pale? I don't know. They just go oh who are the pretty ones and erm they get oh erm Sarah and Claire and Lizzie and then Marcus goes yeah but she's a bit pale, I went so? And then they were being really gross like going oh but you know we, we we fancy you, I was going So oh that's nice of them. That's just like oh but she's a bit pale nice, thanks . Say from me, next time you take prep, say well Lizzie's going to get a tan now. She's gonna go and slap on the fake tan Oh my God they were being really disgusting, okay, they were going erm oh house entertainment I went yeah and they go we, we want you to do a striptease. I went that's nice and they, and they were going erm er yeah down to the bare, bare essentials, I went oh yes what's that erm T-shirt? No no completely stripped, I went right, cos I would do that yeah and they were going oh actually no erm stockings and and erm Suspenders. yeah an and bra and G-string I went right right, then I said oh by the way I'm not erm I'm not doing house swimming this year, I'm not going to give you the, the pleasure yeah right and they were going oh no you have to do it, you have to do it, I was going yeah right cos I do actually want that again like last year it was just such a nightmare. Oh no way do I want to take that there's only three people in my house though. Mm. Then again in my house as well. I'm not doing it cos I mean there are, there are s four new lower sixth so they can bloody swim. I'll sort it out if they like but I'm not swimming again. No there's Jess, she'll swim Mm. there's Tessa Mm. and Tessa is it? Yeah. She's really sweet I didn't know she was in Melbourne. she's really sweet. Yeah she's nice. And there's another one She got busted with er didn't you know? She got No. busted for smoking in one of the loos. Oh poor girl. She was smoking in the bathroom with Rachel and Hattie. I thought it was just Rachel and Hattie. No Tessa was in there as well. Oh. Mrs was really surprised when she saw Tessa in there. It was quite funny. For God's sake. Ali really scared me today Why? Cos she goes, she was going oh and I didn't know the UCCA forms had to go to the master and I thought I overheard that this afternoon, I didn't think that was Yeah I didn't know that at all and erm she said, she goes, I went oh but he doesn't know anything, how would he, he wouldn't even know who I am, he wouldn't you know, how can he tell if 's writing a fair report Mm. she goes oh she d he does know you, he does know everyone. Bollocks. I went rubbish cos he came and said to me the other day oh so how are you enjoying your first term Oh good . I thought yeah, that's right. Actually I've been here a year. Exactly. . And erm she goes oh sh he knows your reputation, I mean he not, maybe not by face but erm but he'll know you, you know, just, he'll know your reputation or by who you hang around with, I went I've never done Oh good! I've never done anything wrong how can I, how can he know me? And she goes oh well just by the people you hang around with. Oh! Right okay erm who do you hang around with? Ah! Erm Luke, Callum, Tom Sarah and Rachel. Mm. Er Mm. It was really weird erm Si was saying about, and he was going oh it, it's gonna be really odd in the summer term to see how Luke reacts when, I mean cos Andy's not there at cricket Yeah. Weird. I remember watching the cricket last year So do I. just so cool. So Who was in the cricket last year? There was Phil, Luke Si Si, Andy Dave Giles Giles, Rob Rob Charlie ? No. No. Prem I just said Prem Oh yeah. Erm Oh what's his name erm him, wasn't he in it? Oh Mark yeah. Mm. And there's that bloke in the fifths that was in it, oh not the fifths There was someone Middle or something Middle wonder bowler Yeah, and he was in it, okay that's fi that's ten, how many are there in a cricket team? Eleven I think. Dunno. And there was one more upper sixth I think. Yeah. Don't know who it was. Oh wasn't it erm Charlie or something? Some bloke from Colvern. Charlie ? Who the hell is he? Was he? Some rough bloke who was going out with Katie . Who was Katie ? God! Upper sixth last year. What did she look like. She was in Lawrence. That helps. Not very attractive. Erm erm brown hair, quite long average figure no you don't know Pretty? Not really. Who is she ? It's not a problem, I'll show you a photo. This is gonna really fuck me up. Er dunno. Who was, okay, I can't remember anyone now. Well you must be able to remember Tessa. Tessa loves us. She loves me, love. Mm. She loves me. Annabel. Annabel loves me as well funnily enough. Sam Yeah. Lucy Lucy Erm Erm shit I can't remember anyone. Er oh God what's her face Who? No she's Heather Who's Heather ? I've never, never Jo , Jo Jo yes, I never found out who Heather was. Was she quite chubby? Yeah. Chubby, chubby. Ginger haired Oh erm oh God, what's her name er Becky Becky rough bitch. Who ? What's her name ! She cut her hair to about, to about there but it was once down, right down here You've lost me totally. curly blonde oh shit Blonde? Not blonde,n not blonde blonde but sort of Oh! lighter than yours but not blonde. Erm oh it's gonna really fuck me up. She's really annoying and she was a real tart and she Philippa ? That's the one. Erm Her and Harry When? Last term, they went out with each other. Si er no Oh yeah. not Si, Sal got off with her. When ? he was going round going oh my God I got off with a real dog. Yeah why did he get off with her? I dunno it was a dare I think. I hate it, I al I always get really paranoid with people I get off with cos I always think it's a dare from someone. Oh yeah, right! I do I always think that. for a dare What? Wouldn't get off with you for a dare. Wouldn't get off with me anyway No cos you're just rough. Four minutes. Mm I'm going to bed then as soon as it hits twelve. How much have you done now? Have you got another half side yet? Mm. Really? That's quite impressive. Mm. We've been talking for about fifteen minutes. Mm. Wake up girl, who are you going to snog? Who are you going to snog on Saturday? Tired. I don't know . Snog Phil. No I've done him already So? done it, been there, got the T-shirt. Got the video, got the fliers Mm. Don't know. Oh go for Phil. I'll probably end up snogging with him at my party. Jim snogging at my party I said yeah probably. Yeah well party I am, it's gonna be a massive orgy. everything planned, the dodgy cocktails Oh it's so irritating, Did I tell you about the cocktail that Sal told me called erm Oh you did tell me that. after birth and test tube baby. Urgh rough. Sounds really nice though, Baileys, Tequila I can imagine, I can just imagine it. Grenadine. Grenadine. Well you just mix it together, it looks like something's floating in some clear a clear water, really rough and you just knock it back. What was the other one? Slow comfortable screw erm sex on a beach Sex on a beach, behind the wall or something Yeah. erm gang bang, no kamik yeah kamikaze Gang bang, kamikaze erm rusty nail Oh yeah? Sit on that eh. erm Anything else? there's another one, I can't remember what it's called, zombie Mm. They sound really yummy as well. and daiquiri. What's that? It's lush. What is it? It's it is absolutely gorgeous, it just tastes like bananas, you don't taste, it's like banana milkshake but you don't taste Has it got any alcohol in it? yeah loads but you just don't taste it Oh. and you just like How's it go? Yeah right. Erm no it's got, it's got red and white something in it. Red and white stuff, yeah? I've forgotten what it's called. grenadine? Grenadine? No I can't remember I've got a nose cold. Mm I've got, I've had a bloody cold for fucking ages. That's why I said I know you should've stayed at home till the beginning of this week. Yeah. I would have really loved it, I'm My throat is still fucked. Is it really painful? No I just sound like a bloke. Oh bunny you'll be alright sweetheart Yes. you'll probably get another offer tomorrow. I haven't even sent off my fucker form yet. Fucker form I've heard it called . all it is it's such a shit. Especially that further information bit, you've just gotta say how wondyfu wonderful you are Wondyful. wondyful. I got my colours. Oh no I didn't. Yes you did, you got it for When? I saw it on the board this morning. Well I haven't looked at the board for a week You've got a you've got colours. Who's got colours? All of the upper sixth have got them. Well not all but I mean Laura ,Sarah, Rachel erm you and Jenny? Jenny people like that, dunno. And I've got, I've got my colours for netball and Roxy has and Katrina from the lower sixth are getting theirs in February. Oh that's good. Cos then it will be good. We get priority and then they've got hockey colours as well like Kay and Ali? Ali erm ? Sal, I dunno I haven't looked at it all. There are loads of colours Yes I'm going to bed. great. What? The people are wonderful. So, so are netball. No they're not. Yes we are. Crap. We're lovely. No you're not. Yes we are. Crap. Anyway I'm gonna go. Okay. Right, signing off. Bye. Er yeah that's right yeah alright . Oh shut up. A teacher needs a kid needs to have a teacher comment about its progress in some specific area of literacy such as a syntax Mm. or its spelling or its grammar then you as its subject teacher should make a Opportunity's there. comment to that effect Mm. specifically and tailored to that child. I'm sorry I don't like the the term literacy, I don't, I think it's too er I think right, you need their spelling Er, literacy is it's one of the general skills, I'm sure it's down as literacy numeracy's the other one It may be but, yeah. but, but then we are con , if the argument on the one hand is we should conform to what the government's saying and I'm saying that's what the government says as one of the general areas we should address I can't be wrong both ways if you follow my drift? You can't have your cake Mm. and eat it! Well on the attainment targets for English they, what they've done is they put the spelling and punctuation underneath presentation Mm. they talk about surface features but I mean that's gonna be e even more for people to understand. Well jus just to lighten the mood for a moment and to go along with high-falooting words here are some Ha! high-falooting words for weak, oh poor rather, poor here we go, atrocious, abominable, execrable Oh, execrable, yeah I like that ! there are better one's That's crap! there are better ones to come. Unredeemable flagrant, egregious abysmal, lamentable, excruciating, deplorable, disreputable is nice. unsavoury, louche, diabolic Louche? Listen,listen, listen, listen What's this? flagitious! God, that sounds rude! That's heinous, illiquidous Ooh ah ! navarious, pernicious, and finally odious and obnoxious! Oh well ! Ah yeah ! Can we settle for odious stroke obnoxious and then move up the . I'd love to Thank you for bringing a little bit of light in. Execra Mm. That's great that one ! Right erm That's disgusting ! To how we doing ? Are you, are you seriously saying to me right, as a parent you choose a qualification, you like pulling out your personal C V, and as a educationalist that literacy is a high-falooting word? To some people it might be, yes. I I Bloody hell! Well I think, you know That's that's not very good English! I I If today, it is perfectly but appropriate with all due respect we will meet that more and more once we have to put descriptions of levels down, there will be words Mm. there that they don't understand and it's But that going to be educational programme. But I think this is this is something the kids will use as well. The , they make it so obvious. Yes, but the ki , if the kid's gonna say well what's literacy? And you say, you know That's right . and you say well Reading, writing and spelling. You're a, you're a it's all, you know And all that stuff . your English! Yeah! Yes. Or or or language, not English Yeah. but language. Language. Yeah. You see because if you start doing it like that I mean, you could say th th the mathematical skills, you could say well he's good on number, but his graph work is poor and you know, he di , you know, you cannot you can't Yeah. you can't be that Alan me for me, mathematical but I accept what you're saying that you mean numerical for most of that alphabetical as as opposed to No, I said that. Wi with with with all due respect you know we we we're talking about the precision of the word and when you actually come to a ten point scale there will be some imprecision anyway in the is it a six? Is it a five? Is, d'you know what I mean? Mm. So I I I think there's going to be some balancing anyway. You you're discussing this and that instead of putting presentation I put and neatness. it's possible then Pardon? then instead of putting presentation I put and neatness. It's like you know,do we read them though Mm. Mm. She does. Well it's a that's Right. just a fact. Mm. Instead of presentation I put writing and neatness Ah, yeah ! to make it easy. It's our duty anyway to get these words though the last minutes of discussion have been possibly the most valuable cos if we cannot use language accurately It's about language, it's important! Yes it is! then we're not doing our job then are we? Yes! You're absolutely right! That's right, but the trouble is using language accurately with all due respect is is to some degree That's a from where you're standing. terrible expression with due respect! With limited respect Is it it depend on where you're where you're standing doesn't it? When really it means with no respect ! Oh that's unkind! Wouldn't be sitting here going through this process if I if I hadn't got no respect for your ! Could we have punctuality down there? Well I was goi I would quite T like that. Right. Colour coded pencils for the classes! Ca can we just go through at the moment we've got effort and behaviour acceptable, we've got numeracy acceptable and we've got literacy acceptable with reservations but, tough cookie! We've got attendance I was going to suggest that we made that attendance stroke punctuality Mhm. If you get that all in. Be in on time. Yes? Yes Mm. I agree. Yes. So so ca can I effort, what about this concentration bit, that was a query? Er Mm. what was on the orig , what did we have on the ori , I'm not saying the original list is like, is right Paul, I had something in there about homework, whether people wanted No. The the premise on this was what what do parents, and I know the words are wrong but at least it moved people along way er er er what do parents want to know about their youngsters? Er, very simple and It's hardly our authority that was my feeling? is it? Sorry? Hardly . No , well I'm I'm saying to you the same sort of things, in general skills and abilities there are certain things that we required to put in the er numeracy the literacy er, to some degree attendance and punctuality, although we don't have to do it on a subject specific basis erm we, everybody wants to know about he young ,ho whether their youngsters are trying i.e. effort ha , whether they behave in lessons. Erm do we want areas like working with others, do we want homework? I mean, that's what you're saying Not on skills. Not those two. You don't You did. want homework? No Yeah. I don't want homework. No, I don't want homework. No Nobody seems to want homework in. No. Why's that? It's spontaneous doing it off their own back. Well how do you make a comment on how the kids done a homework? It's very difficult on a ten point scale wha what's ten for some kids Sorry? may be three for another. We have a homework policy that is accepted in the schools. We don't need comments! No , I'm just asking I'm not Yes. I'm not trying to be Mm mm. I'm just asking Testing us. why? Well I haven't, I haven't got an axe to grind ! Andrew, homework? I think that it isn't a general skill it at needs to be commented on, I think that it needs to commented on I think that it ought to be commented on in the comment box. Yeah like he never Right. handed in a piece of homework Yes. all year! Yes. Would yo would would Yes. I, when I do the comment thing put in would we, I say I, that's conceited! Would we put some guide lengths on on things Yes. that might be commented upon? To give Yes. people starters Yes. for five. Mm. Yes. Mhm. Homework, things that might be commented on in this Yes. section, art, colour of your socks Yes. I have put on my er, general skills and abilities, working with others I wanted some social Could we not Is this summarise that is this and put the collectively are they put a collective noun for that which I is what Paul was saying It's a minute ago isn't Mm. it? It's It's , what did you say? Paul. Pardon? Horrible! It's it's got to be ca often work sideways from working with this door open? No No, I just No. opened the door about a minute ago. No, I think that so social skills then. perhaps Yeah, some some of it in. Social skills. We are required in the same way as we require numeracy and literally literacy, literally! to have something that indicates how the youngster gets on with others, I'm sure that's one of the general skills and ability. Social skills, yeah I think summarises the whole lot together. Mhm. How you get on with other people. What about listening skills and and speaking skills? Well hang on, social skills. Cos these'll have to be clarified to some degree. You're gonna have a great deal of . Body language! But, but the words will be in, the clarification needs to be for as a as an addendum for for staff doesn't it? Yes, a clarification is for the staff not for the parents! Oh no! Well, obviously not! Ca can I Or we'll be writing the whole books for them! So concentration's there, okay. Could I, can I say something about Have faith in our prayers! I think that we should be aware of what these levels mean. I think that we must whe when we're, we we must come to some sort of consensus in the staff as to what the levels mean in inverted commas. Can I suggest belo , below average rather than poor? I'm afraid I don't like that average. I know it isn't ideal Ooh no. but it's er it's a little bit better than poor. I prefer poor I like poor. I like poor. Mm. Let's have a vote on it. Below average? Execrable? Poor? Oh not poor, come on! How, how can you possibly like poor? The negative connotations of a word like that, come on! But some of them Well are bloody poor! well wo well one out of ten is indicating that they're poor! I ye yes and I agree with that, but we're supposed to be communicating with the little bastards right No, no I'm sorry! in a sensitive way right, emphasising the positive No, no we're supposed to be communicating with the parents! Parents Exactly little bastards, that's what I said! But we're not pandering it's not pandering to the kids! I agree with you but you, I mean, if , well you might as well say shite! Levels one, two and three are shite ! Can I Can I I mean if you're going to take that to the ultimate lengths the way that you lot are going on Why Shite, you know, the word is shit! It's bloody John Wayne's version of educational terminology! With all, with all, with all due respect Oh Sold to Angela's er mini outburst I I can we leave the word poor and below alone for the moment so that Right sir. Angela can reflect Yes sir. upon it and come up with other alternatives What we get what you're saying but at the moment er can, can we stick on skills and abilities and try and Right. get in here. Sorry! I'm I'm stuck for a word I've I've asked Angela, I can't explain to her what I mean it's awful when you, when you got a word at the back of your mind it's one of those words where ki , a kid ham anybody, any person can er, realise that something needs doing and do it without being told to do it. Er, they have er, a se se Independence? Sense of responsibility. Some sort of a level of independence. Responsibility. No. None of those things. More creative than that. Er you know, perhaps if Baden Powell might have appr approved it, of it you know it's it's Weird? I'm being ! Go on, carry on. I don't know what you're getting at, what what You don't do you, no? Never mind, as an extra skill. O okay. Oh as an extra skill? As an extra skill, yes. Yeah. Perhaps it's so rare amongst At the moment children that er, this it seems unlikely that er Stickability? That's a Brownie No! term. At the moment Dib, dib, dib, that's a , no. scout term ! I think, I think you're all getting a bit tired are you not? Well the cab firm said we could . I'm sorry to have brought this down to ! At the moment we have What have we got? i effort behaviour Yeah. literacy, numeracy, attendance, punctuality and social skills. Right. Well Is writing and neatness can just be called presentation. Right. Er Give us again what you've got, I want effort, behaviour Effort, behaviour literacy, numeracy attendance, punctuality, social skills and presentation. And have we not gotta take care that we don't we don't have such an enormous list Oh yeah ! that people are gonna be going ! Well , all that, all we've got at the moment Alan is a list of things that we feel should be in there But it may well be that you'll say well, we want to put these in a specific order Aha. or or that we want to leave some of these out. All I'm trying to do at the moment is to sort of get Is do like a shopping list. ideas of er Aha. a shopping list on there because I I I I, this following instructions I remembered why I put it now we are, but one you were saying that Pardon? we're obliged to report on social skills and so forth Mm. one of the most important things that bias report on is problem solving, and that was my attempt at problem solving. Is it ! The word that I'm looking for is Problem solving? No? No! That's two words! Ah shit! One word which includes problem solving Can fo , can we for the moment you have a a specific task Andrew which is to come up with a word can we put can we put problem solving in for the moment? Mm. Do we agree that we want something that that that that says Well you see following instructions isn't really problem solving but it's sa partly a long line and the kid's would know what it means mm, that they know I mean I would put that under group work and social skills and no er the way I would approach it but it may not apply . I quite D'you see? like problem solving. We I'll have to Alright, well go and go bu do some then! I'll have to back through my Instead of general skills alright, problem solving, at last! So at the moment we've got one, two, three, four, five six There's only an extra so seven eight Fine. There's only an extra one there! One, two, three, four, five, six, seven We could leave literacy, numeracy no? there's only an extra one there. Literacy, numeracy, we have nothing Fo nothing for co , concentration's out and literacy's in following instructions is out, problem solving's in er, mathematical's numeracy er, social skills is extra. And presentation I've got. Presentation is writing Yeah. and neatness. Yeah instead of writing and neatness. Any further comments? Ah, isn't behaviour in, in social skill and then we could drop that as a separate one? No, I think the behaviour No. is very important. You want to, want to see that separate? No I'm not saying ? It may well be a social skill but I think it's aye worthwhile It's a one that's You want it identified separately? We we would Yeah. have to er er I'll I'll try and come up with some talk of, some sort of definitions, guidelines of, I mean, effort's effort, I do , do you have to explain effort? Not really cos No. Cos I come back to what I said about five minutes ago? Yep. These levels erm they've got to be in the context of the levels of the national curriculum or fail to to be valuable. We canna have everybody putting eights, nines and tens and nobody putting ones, twos, and threes because then it it becomes meaningless er, in relation to the section it's got to bear some relation to what sort of standard you expect from a child at at such What's this? For what? at such an a It's for Well these, these are te , it's a ten point scale Mm. This effort thing? Yes, the the the all these Oh I didn't know that. have have to be at that's why it's a ten point scale Yeah but I don't see how that might have to relate to national curriculum er Well that was one of the reasons for doing it on the basis that there's a sort of uniformity and that we're trying to set a consistent standard. Yeah, you've got a ten point scale but with effort we can hardly say hey, there's a class there and you haven't, you haven't put anybody down as poor! Oh no! No no! Ah, we don't have to I'm not saying apply that I'm not saying that what I'm saying is that that we must all have at the back of our minds a a sort of considered opinion of what's Aye consensus of what a consensus of opinion of of what levels Yeah. are, yeah. Right. Well hopefully we already have. Well I think i , I think it's, I think it's it something that should be Emphasised. emphasised at a whole staff meeting Yes. that we should Yes but the , that we needn't worry about at this stage I think. What for these? For these here? Yeah, because invariably somebody's gonna put erm, behaviour eight and, everybody else is gonna put behaviour two and it's gonna become meaningless. Well no! It's gonna happen. Well no, cos some classes Not necessarily But eight no but eight in terms of in terms of behaviour Aha. er, is very very good and if you, it's it's level A at G C S E in the area. Well it shouldn't be like that! Ah oh ha no come on Don! no it shouldn't , no I disagree with that! You can't quantify their You can't behaviour no! I can see, I can I me see the point of having Yeah. coherence of, er Mhm. like that, but not not to that Mm. fine point, it's classifying the kids too much! No, I alright, I, yeah And in some class rooms the kids are gonna go down for a variety of reasons, they're gonna they're gonna work their ticket and in other class rooms they won't! And the gi , that's gotta be reflected. Oh yeah I I ca yeah, I I accept I'm I'm being What d'you mean? finickety but I Well I tho though I I take what Don's saying in a general . In a general way , yes. Actually I wouldn't mind it staying open cos I'm a bit hot. Right, leave it open. Yep, leave it open. Is that alright? Andrew could you come and hold this door? Certainly. It's still I'll put head in Erm close it. we we've gone over er, I mean are we basically happy at that? So we need to re-draft it we it needs to be sort of re-drafted in in a format Yes, it's thanks very much that, that we've got for doing that. and if I didn't say it strong enough, as Angela's done, it has given us a real basis to work on Don and it is appreciated. Mm, it is. Yep. We , pupil, teacher, date does that still apply? Yes, it does doesn't it? Yes. I was just thinking about whether people sign but it does, no it still applies. Oh Andrew it doesn't ma No I mean this guff that was you know, or stuff erm, we've got more categories than we originally started with. Well you would just need an extra space or two spaces on the bottom. D'you want to look at whether you put them in any particular order? I think you should yeah. Yes, I think or I, and things like effort and behaviour Behaviour. are important. Well we Individual as opposed to things that are hard like. We we we finish in five minutes I feel that Mm. I asked Terry to come along because one of the things I tho I tho I hope we might get round to spending a few minutes on was about Alan's raised it before about records coming in er, and what the state of the game is in records coming into us and how we're transferring that information, or not transferring that information onto dep onto department's national curriculum er material Mm. is starting to flow into us. Yes. Er er and there are i implications for you in as much that my simplistic idea would be that everything in terms of a subject would be on a separate sheet so that Mhm. maths information we had a, a child would go straight to the maths Yeah. department etcetera etcetera. But would it? Yeah. Whether Well you would the point I'm making now is we've got Terry here Yeah. just to give you some background information cos we do need to address that, I know it's a side issue from this are we fairly happy with that? Yes. Other than Poor. poor. I'm strongly thinking that at What else some stage you've got to say to a kid Right, whilst you are not good! you have that on disk how much how onerous is it I agree. for you to do No I can I can move it, I can , yeah. Right, so would you do that for us so we Yeah. can at some point get together and then I can't do it here! Oh no! No No. no! I haven't got a dictionary. Well you've got Friday night don't be so silly! Mm. Erm All over your place on Saturday we can we can review that again. Right okay. Aye Saturday morning! Is that okay? So tha , thank you very much for that, a little bit heated on occasion but we've got there. Good though wasn't it? No, I get very offended and upset and agitated cos I like smoothness and light. Go back to what I asked Terry about, just so that you're in the picture really. Yeah. I think one of the biggest problems we've got or I've I've had in the last couple of years is that we've got so many primary schools that we get children from Spring Gardens and Western are now producing national curriculum information for which Marian has got. It's come in in different ways, maths, English and science from Spring Gardens is separate separate sheets which we can actually take out the files and give to each department, there's no problem there Saint John's again, is separate sheets,Collingwood isn't, it's actually on photocopiable sheets, we either cut them up and give them out separately in some form or whatever, and what I've, what we hope to do over the next maybe this year is to ask them for a sheet each, for each subject that we can actually take out of the file and give to each department, so that is has arrived, it ha did arrive last year but it arrived in such hotch botch that we didn't actually give it out, but we certainly have it this year and Marian and I certainly, Marian anyway will get that together and give it out to departments. I know Paul's been down to Percy Saint John's and they are quite far ahead believe it or not they have got separate sheets for most subjects and we'll able to do that English at pri Spring Gardens is good, so it maths because that was actually dealt with by erm Barbara Barbara. who is now left, but never the less it's been taken over by Yes well the the ne the new girl's very Yeah and very good as well. Yeah to , yeah she's okay, Janice , but there is somebody specifically in charge of each of the areas within the primary schools, they keep changing because they keep leaving but I mean obviously the there is it is going on. The problem I have is putting them into forms and last was a was a specific example because we ended up with our seven G N, and I took the i , the information from each of the primary schools and put them into form classes. Now this year what I've done is actually going to see the form teacher and look at the classes and they've actually given me a lot more information this year and hopefully, keep our fingers crossed, the classes are very varied and we have good, we have middling, and we have the not so good and we've tried to keep those like that. Yeah we are, not so It is good ! it is well not saying tha , I mean I and again I, I think what I need to do is get a sheet again, obviously working with yourselves and Rod to get you more information to make sure the classes are not and don't get same situation as last year Are we in a position Terry then for every child t to for example with years, with with with seven or eight etcetera to say to Alan Yeah. right there's a sheet er, that indicates er, what we are aware of the mathematical ability sorry, the, aye, the mathematical ability o o of every child at i.e. from Spring Gardens it will be a separate sheet Yeah. but from wherever you said, if they're using one sheet for all three we would need Yeah. at the present time to photocopy a couple of extra ones so Angela can have one That's right. and Don can have one. That's right. Yeah. I don't I don't know that you need to do all this I mean, we would like ac I mean as far as I'm concerned we would like access to this information but I I don't particularly need some pieces of To keep it. paper to keep. I think that's very well sa I mean if they can be put in a room or You know if the In the if there's somewhere that that we can secure room for the staff to just to look at. look at and browse and take the information that they want rather than putting what sounds to me a lot of work on some Because in actual fact I would I would be interested Mm. in not just the maths you see. Yeah, yes. Mm. I would I would want Mm. to nick the whole , I want to know English as well. Like English,as well! Look what I'm saying What about the small staff room? secretary that could be got that way Can all the tables There is no need for you to do Right. an enormous amount Yeah. of work. Right, so in other words, we just take it out of the files, keep the children information in the tutor's office and just extract what you want to put in somewhere else? But you would put it in alphabetical order Order. not form order because Not form. they'll obviously be moving about and tutors can't be faffing round every two minutes if something goes wrong. Have to be secure? It could go Yeah. mm With respect, will these people not be getting SIMS soon? They have, all our have got SIMS. So won't this information be on SIMS and can it ju not just be transferred? I'm not sure Andrew. Erm I suppose it must be. Wouldn't that be a better way of keeping anyway? Well, possibly. But what about the current situation? Fair enough but in the future so as not to have to Why can't just simply pass it round people? These people won't be on si the the some of these primary schools are on? Well they are, yeah! Spring Gardens and have got SIMS. Everybody's had SIMS training now! Yeah, they've all got it, Er all our primary schools have got it. Bob was down with his secretary at Last time I went in everyone got called! Yep, they all that Yeah. You're kidding me! Extract it, but keep it in your room alphabetically then if the maths department say, hey look, can we have a look at that during the Have it there for the first month or something. Yeah go Well as if , I mean I've got a draw in my filing cabinet, so as Marian that says What er that But filing cabinets tend to put people off. No! We we will ask, I mean it's not gonna be something that's vital I've used a filing cabinet and it's put me off! Yeah. but at the minute We no it'll go We will just ask you can we have a look at it for a few days. it'll go, it'll all go as it's individual sheets in a box file will it not? Mm. In a single box file with cap on. Oh well a box, yes. It can go in a box file. I've got a box file. Ah. Can we have the box file, if you could bring that in? That's saves me bringing it. A box file yeah. That could be kept in tutor's room with Oh. national curriculum AT's on Mm. it and it's Yeah. there Mhm, oh yeah! sheet on the top so if somebody takes it away Yeah. they Oh sign and leave the sheet. that's a good idea. Yeah. And Here here! Yeah. But when you Jolly good! when you did make the point about not having information I was concerned about that Oh yeah! it was an oversight Yeah. on my part that didn't get passed down and it is important that's . But we Execrable! Yeah! I mean we were ! If we cheated about not having it back you know, when parents came in June but we don't need it immediately you know, it doesn't have to be photocopied so that we all But the have it within the first term. but for the from a tutor's It is! point of view when the information's been com when so it's coming in and being sorted it is better that it's done at that particular time Oh yes otherwise, yeah rather than filing everything away then having Yeah. to stop and go to files and taking it out. It's one Yes of those jobs but you're better off doing but Terry has enough on his plate without having to to separate them into maths and this that and the other and photocopy bits and pieces! Because we don't ne , we don't Yeah. them permanently, we Yeah. just need to look at them! That's right, yeah. Yeah. The be all and end all! Right, mine is a Cos I will copy down anything that I think Yeah. is important! Angela? Yes! In the va , in the various schools that I've worked in I I've Right. made a list of all Is that two? er, six erm, I've made a list of all the different words that are used for crap on reports right? Special needs, cause for concern inadequate, unsatisfactory, below average and weak Unsatisfactory? and does , do any of them sort of leap out and you think yes, yes I love it? No. In a sense I like below average, I'm concerned about getting the two damn words in, isn't that pathetic really! Below average is the best of Can't we just back it along a bit so that Andrew can you know Certainly. Could you call it beverage? Yes certainly tha that can start there, finish there I thought it was er? and they'll be loads of room to fit in Below average. I shall leave poor in when I do it because I can't get it in! That's fine. Mm. I I I know a good doctor I take what you're saying. by the way! It's in the spirit of trying to be positive I'm Aha Yeah. it's important, all those sort of things add up. Certain people missed that joke. No, I didn't miss it! Thank you very much I just ignored it! just gone a couple of minutes over, let's go and . Chose to ignore it ! What did you say ? ! Angela would you like to put a couple of kisses down. Thank you very much. You tinkers! I'm backing it, am I backing it? I'm mi I'm not gonna stay here You're backing it, you're backing it! listening to all this guff! What the hell am I doing now? God! Ask Terry, what are we doing Er next? we're doing controller Oh next, the programme Oh I see! It's quite intense this isn't it? What are doing? Yes it is. Well yes, you're doing something on your own aren't you? I mean, I thoroughly enjoyed this morning Have you gotta stay SATS now? well I was not lost but and then this afterno , it's quite dif Initiative. mentally draining. Initiative. I quite enjoy myself doing these. the word I'm trying to think of. report. Ah, but I get I get embarrassed because you people are so cruel! So rude to each other! You little li in Europe er product. So we have an established base. Now obviously in Bracknell, Maidenhead and in the City, erm and as I said to you, we've recently opened er er an office in in Leeds er to base our expansion in the North and up into Scotland. Erm well over a hundred staff and growing. Erm a comprehensive er training centre in all locations and a team of professional consultants . Where are we? I mean any anybody services, which is probably the the background we came from,success on Wall Street. Er we now have applications in production areas in all those er in all those . . We own the street I think was the er one of the advertising campaigns that ran in America. Eighteen of the top twenty two market in the in the U S A use . Not just use but have have built their their whole company I T strategy around . Er nearer to home we've recently have adopted a similar strategy of making their . In the commercial names such as and are implementing solutions throughout their their whole store network. , their manufacturing plant and process control depends entirely on products. we've inherited from the states and er replicating throughout throughout throughout the U K and into Europe. Government er for us in the U K and representations within er within the audience. Erm Customs and Excise and Charity Commission, they're not just users, again they've chosen as a strategic partner for database development. Er and yes there's even a juggling busker from . Solutions applications from Huw erm you'll hear more from one of er systems integration and and product developers later on in the day. we have our erm developing products. We don't , we don't sell applications, but we develop the products on technology er in all those areas. What I'd like to do now is hand over to Phill er Europe, talking to you the client server strategy and where we are today with our products. Garry. What I'd like to do for the next twenty minutes of the er of the seminar is talk about client server today. As Garry's already mentioned started back in nineteen eighty five and delivered its first products in eighty seven. It was fairly erm revolutionary at the time in in the fact it was really adopting a client server approach in network computing, and it was the first way to do that. So what I'd like to do is just discuss with you what we believe client server is as a combination of hardware and software and the architecture for delivering a client server solution. At the end of this part of the presentation we'll also see a short videotape which erm discusses the experiences of one of customers using this architecture. When we talk about the Online Enterprise what really mean is the business needs of organizations in the nineteen nineties. And we believe there are several of them. One is the need for applications. Traditionally database management systems have been excellent at decision support. However they have had to prove their worth for online transaction processing. They were good at at at flexibly reporting on data through a relational model but has really delivered online transaction processing when it came to the market back in ninety eighty seven with its multi-threaded server architecture. What the customer's always looking for is distributed heterogeneous systems which means that the software that they are investing in is an architecture which is portable. So is an architecture which runs across multiple different types of hardware on server machines plus multiple such as desktop devices and across lots of heterogeneous networks. So we can really protect your investment in your present hardware infrastructure. Something that a lot of other open systems vendors propose is a big bang approach to evolving to that type of architecture away from proprietary systems. is very different in that it it proposes a migrationary and evolutionary approach towards open systems. We can coexist with your present hardware and software environments. Now that's something which is unique to . So we're not proposing that you turn off the mainframe on Friday and turn on your Unix or open systems machines with your database on it on Monday. We're proposing that you integrate your presently existing investments in hardware and software and move over over time. And enables you to move your skillbase over a time as well. All of these things are really integrated through definition of a client server relational database management system, and that's what I'd really like to describe now. Just to underline what I what I was saying . When we talk about online we're talking about the ability for the software infrastructure to support decision support and transaction processing. And just because the software you're using can do transaction processing it doesn't mean it can do decision support. They're very different requirements. Traditionally with relational database management systems companies would batch load data from the mainframe on maybe a a once a day or once a week basis and load that information onto the database systems and use it for decision support. We're talking about integrating both of those distinct and different requirements. This this slide really sums up the mission or the goal of , which is the integration of yo all your information resource. If you look at the blue line in the middle of the slide then look to your right, each of those erm icons represents a source or service provider a server on the network. So for instance you may have already have a relational database management system, it may or may not be , but that information exists as a service or service provided on the network. There will also be non-relational data. Over ninety percent of the world's data is indeed not held in a relational database, and it may not be appropriate for all forms of information. So for instance you may have real-time . If you're a financial institution that might be or data, and if you're a manufacturing plant it might be process control information on P L Cs on the shop floor. You'll also have application services so in the office it might be email or you may have E D I talking to your suppliers. certainly applications. These are applications which you wrote ten years ago and they may have been written in a an old like COBOL, but they meet a business need and if they're meeting the business need day in day out then why should you replace them? So all of these things are service providers and provide information on the network. And goal or mission is to enable you to integrate that information seamlessly and deliver it to the desktop in a form which is appropriate to all of the users in the enterprise. So we for instance will enable you to use decision support tools against any of that information in a seamless manner. And that's not jus just decision support tools from , that's decision support from any of over two hundred front-end vendors which link into the architecture. You can really choose the best of the tools and technology for the best users. We'll also talk about the ability to integrate the information to application development through online transaction processing applications and the icon at the bottom representing software which I've just mentioned. Tools like Lotus One Two Three, like Microsoft Excel,, Datareive, Paradox, Dbase, the list goes on. If we go back to the nineteen seventies or the early eighties and look at how we developed applications we take an old language like maybe COBOL as an example. We might define the way we that application as four logical components. And that's on a host-based system on one machine. Those components would be presentation services which is the man-machine interface or the way the application looks on the screen. That might be a thirty two seventy screen on a on a mainframe, it might be a G U I P C on a desktop. Behind that there'll be presentation logic which defines the way that the screen behaves based on user input. So if I press erm a function key on the keyboard what happens next on the screen, if I click the mouse on a certain icon on the screen what happens next. But the fundamental part of any application is what we call the transaction integrity logic or the business rules which actually model the way you want to do business. Which model your enterprise. So you look you look analysis of design er come up with er sort of elementary functions which you need to model inside the applications. And that's what we're talking about by transaction integrity logic. That's fundamental. And that becomes the arbitrator for requests for information for the data access mechanism, whatever that happens to me be. It might be a , it might be a relational database management system, it might even be a hierarchical system. It could be any source of information within that application. So the challenge in the eighties was to say how you best split that processing of the application across the network to take advantage of the processing power and the mips of the server machines, the processing power and the strengths of the desktop device as well as minimizing the network traffic between those two types of er hardware. Traditionally other open systems vendors have taken this approach, which is to say we'll have the entire application on the desktop and we'll centralize the server resource on a server hardware machine. So we'll have a single S twelve query server, a relational database management system, which can be accessed from the applications on the database. Now there's a number of disadvantages to this traditional approach. One is the performance aspect because every time we need to access the relational database across the network we have to send a large piece of transactional logic, a piece of S Q L code, across the network, and that could be significant in size. We may have many hundreds of clients accessing that database all passing over large pieces of code, and obviously this Four G L code is not a message-based protocol, it is in fact a language which we're using in the wrong manner. So we can have a network bottleneck with many many users. But also the database is passive, it never knows which client is going to communicate with it next. It takes requests as and when they turn up and the server deals with them and res returns the results back to the client that requested that information. But the S Q L code which is sent to it has to be interpreted when it gets to the server machine, and we all know the difference between compiled and interpreted code. But the real disadvantage to this approach is in terms of the control of maintenance because as we've already said you'll have done analysis and design on these elementary but fundamental business functions which reside inside the application. If we decide to change the way we do business or change the way the application works on how it models our environment, then we have to revisit using this architecture every single client machine on the network and upgrade that particular business function. Now if you've got many hundreds of clients on the network that's a significant effort in terms of maintaining the code. And if that piece of code is fundamental to the application it may reside in several different routines within that code. So maintenance is a burden of this approach. But also control. If for instance erm Fred Bloggs at the end of the office is sick on Friday he turns off his P C at lunchtime and goes home and we do the software upgrade during the afternoon on Friday, then his P C won't get the upgrade to the software because we're sending it down the network. On Monday morning everybody starts posting data into the database through the application interface and Fred's posting in data at fifteen percent V A T, everybody else is posting in the data at seventeen and a half percent V A T. So we're looking at a two and a half percent margin. Now there's no way of telling inside the database where that incorrect data has come from. In fact we've lost the integrity of the database without knowing how we can resolve that. So we have a an application control and maintenance burden and problem with this architecture. So back in nineteen eighty seven looked at the application models of client server and network computing and said, How can we better address the needs of client server? And this is the architecture which all the products are based on. The client server software architecture from was revolutionary. And it has been proved to be the way to do client server software with all of the other major vendors now moving towards this type of implementation. So relational database is intelligent and programmable. It's not only a repository for relational data, it's also a repository for each of your business rules and business functions. So every er each elementary business function is stored in a central repository which can be accessed by each application on the desktop. So first of all performance is greatly improved cos we now have the S Q L or Four G L code stored inside the server and we send a message-based protocol across the network, a small request to invoke that rou routine or function from the repository and return the results. So we've greatly improved network performance and removed the bottleneck of the of the network. But also the the code which resides on the server, or or the server actually knows in advance now what all of those transactions and pieces of code are, therefore it can precompile that code. So again you have the difference between compiled S Q L and interpreted S Q L. But again the major advantage of this approach is in application maintenance and control. A major customer did er a bench mark recognizing that sixty percent of any project cost was taken up by maintenance of the code after it went live. So they actually bench marked the maintenance phase of the project and found this approach to be three hundred percent more productive than the approach we showed on the previous slide. Because if I want to change a business rule, rather than me visiting every single client on the network and upgrading that code I will re revisit it once on the server. That the code is centralized and is shareable and is refu reusable. If I change it once in one place only then automatically every program on the network is using the new version of the business rule. So we have an an extra control mechanism and maintenance and no version control issue. So that's the er the architecture that is proposing to deliver client server. a a step back in time over the last five years of what has been delivering and there are many thousands of customers using in that manner. Each of the icons on this slide represents the four key components of that architecture in terms of the software er products. The top right hand corner icon, the circle with a cone in it, represents multi-threaded SQL server. That is the the database with the repository for business rules. Top left represents SQL life cycle tools, which are tools which have has been delivering for the last three years which address each of the needs of the entire project life cycle. It includes case tools, it includes Four G Ls, report writers, end user tools, debuggers, operation control. So we can really address all of the project life cycle with own front end client development tools. But that is a choice which you make. is noted for its openness. Erm I've already talked about there are over two hundred front end tools which access or have integration with the database. So the icon in the bottom left hand corner represents open client A P I, open client application programming interface. Now for instance using that A P I, I could write a piece of C code, a piece of Three G L, which could access the database as if it was local to my machine on the client. The open client A P I would make the network seamless. It wouldn't exist as far as the programmer was concerned. Now that in itself is not unique, what is unique is because of our relationships with people like Microsoft who actually O E M and resell and O S Two, then many many of the P C and desktop Four G M and tools vendors vendors have aligned themselves behind that A P I. So we have a wealth of choice for you as customers in terms of for instance using tools which you're familiar with which you've already invested in. I'm not expecting you to invest in new technology to take advantage of this architecture. The bottom right hand corner represents another product which is unique to , which is the open server P I. The open server programming interface is almost a tool kit for writing gateways to other data sources. So it enables me to integrate other alien data sources into the architecture. Take for example E D I or email. Using the open server I can integrate email into the architecture represented by this diagram. And because it has open server in front of it from the client's side it looks like a server, so any of those two hundred clients or any of front end tools can have access to the email system as if it was a resource or server. So I can for instance use erm Paradox or use Dbase as a front end to access and send email or E D I messages. So those are two third party tools that are integrated using client server architecture. But on top of being able to access any information resource inside your organization using open server, also deliver a set of off-the-shelf gateway products to integrate with other relational database systems. So we can provide you with off-the-shelf gateways which integrate these sources into the architecture from Oracle,, Infomix, R D B, R M S, D B Two, Unisys, Kix etcetera. So we can actually integrate most of the erm dominant relational databases that are out there or in your organization into this architecture to protect your investment in those technologies. One of thems one of the er the gateways I just mentioned was the Open Server for Kix and the mainframe integration. approach is is to work with people like I B M. In fact you may have seen in the press er this week the announcement of a strategic relationship between and I B M, and we will talk about that briefly a bit later. But that is an endorsement of client server architecture. So we're not proposing that you turn off the mainframe on Friday and turn on open systems on Monday. We're saying let's integrate the mainframe, let's take advantage of the processing that it can do and its er strengths, and ye let's use it as a server which is available on a network in a client server architecture. So Open Server for Kix is an A P I, an application programming interface, which allows us to get at S Q L data on D B Two S Q L, but also allows us to get at any another database or application system which resides in . So you can really integrate any information which resides on the mainframe. That's just one example of the gain with solutions I've just mentioned. At the beginning of the presentation I said that has really erm grown through recognition of its leading edge technology and its leading edge relational database management systems. We consider database to be online because it has a number of distinct features functionality. Enterprise capacity performance is the ability to do transaction processing in a relational database. But not just for one or ten users, but in a scalable manner for a hundred or many thousands of users. So we have a scalable solution. Server enforced integrity, we've already talked about the need for holding the business rules in a central repository with the data to protect that information but also to allow you to control the overall client server architecture much more tightly. Application availability's obviously very important. If we're talking about using this sy er type of system for running mission critical systems where if the database goes down the business stops running and starts losing money, then we need to be able to run twenty four hours a day seven days a week. is designed to enable you to do that and in fact who are a key partner of actually O E M and retail on the hardware as S Q L two thousand. And if you're not familiar with they are a fairly extensive and fault tolerant hardware for ultimate twenty four hour a day seven day a week operation. That's a very good endorsement of erm online capabilities. And finally what we're also going to be talking about today is online distributed database management systems as we move towards enterprise-wide client server which we'll talk about in a lot more depth in the following presentations. Then we'll talk about how is delivering distri distributed functionality to enable you to use client server at the enterprise-wide level. These have been the building blocks of client server. What I'd like to do now is erm show you a short video snap from a customer. There's many thousands of customers using worldwide. One of those is which is er er a financial institution in the City. And they're a strategic partner. So what I'd like to do without further ado is is move onto the video and show you a recommendation for products . I know it looks as though he was being filmed in a prison cell. Erm I'd like to assure you that that wasn't in fact the case. Erm the project erm that he referred to there has in fact now gone live and erm partly as a result of that are now investing further in products, by implementing a range of new projects on that same architecture. As it says I'm John I'm marketing director for Northern Europe with . What Garry and Phill have done so far is really tell you where stands today. But the main objective of the seminar is to show what we see as the route forward. Particularly to show how we're addressing the growing need for integrated information systems right across the enterprise. And we propose to do that by extending the traditional model of client server computing, the essentially departmental solution, across the enterprise to integrate multiple computer systems across multiple multiple . So my aim here is to talk about how we will address these needs which we see emerging er at an increasing pace through the nineties. I think probably many of you are familiar with the concepts that Phill described and what those concepts what the client server approach has done is to really bring about quite a revolutionary new breed of systems since the term was first coined in fact by in ninety eighty seven. In fact although sometimes the rate of progress or the pace of technology seems sort of frustratingly slow if you look at what has actually changed, what has been achieved over the last five years, it's quite incredible. The systems,, graphical user interfaces,the concept of database management systems, repositories of information which are accessible and shareable are really taken for granted in many organizations. But of course this technology software or hardware and indeed our requirements are not standing still. We're ready we believe to move forward from delivering primarily the solutions through to the next stage which is what we've termed enterprise-wide client server. And this next stage really offers some potentially huge benefits because what it can allow is the integration of the corporate information systems and the requirements of the corporation as a whole to manage and exploit its information resource. With the requirements needs and preferences of individual departments and individual users. So it promises to bridge the gap that still in fact exists in many if not most organizations between what happens at the local and individual level and what's happening at the corporate level. If we look at this client server model today one of the most significant advantages it delivers is that it allows us to run different kinds of applications on different computers. It means we've been able to choose the most appropriate hardware for the job. To take advantage of new technology as it comes along while still protecting and preserving our existing hardware investments. But in fact of course it's also there to fragmentation because either perhaps individual departments have exercised that freedom of choice to build systems that they want to use and operate and to reap any benefits that they require. But it hasn't really bitten into the issue of how we can control and operate and exploit the total environment. Benefits I think have been within the architecture is that M I S can now be more responsive to the users needs. For the users they can be more productive by exploiting the of choice. And hopefully the business as a whole in a competitive environment they can be more responsive more flexible to new requirements as they come along. Now as Garry has already shown, the client server software market is now seen as a backward growing sector of the software industry because client server has effectively become the standard way of architecting new systems. And in fact nineteen ninety three is really something of a pivotal year because according to at the beginning of ninety three probably something like forty percent of new applications built using the client server model. And this is going to rise to fifty percent by year end and as high as sixty five percent nineteen ninety five. And some research by foreign suggested that whilst this sector is worth a mere seven hundred million dollars a day, by nineteen ninety six the client server software market will reach seven point five billion dollars in size. Which is a growth of erm ten fold over three or four years. But the more important question is why? and to what benefit er this change might occur. Well increasingly we see that organizations are recognizing that effective use of information as a corporate resource manipulated and manageable as a whole can be of a tremendous competitive advantage and the client server has become the most effective way of exploiting and leveraging that resource. And of course has established itself as a leading player in this industry. We defined the model and we solved a generation ago many of the technology issues surrounding client server such as and so on that erm other software suppliers are now pushing to catch up on. But to fully achieve this potential for client server into the future across the enterprise raises for us some really quite difficult new challenges and demands for the software environment. As I've already hinted at even with our products and products most of our customers today in fact are implementing departmental systems. The departmental systems maybe mission critical in other words they may be important to them you know they may be necessary to doing business to getting out orders or what have you. They may be quite large an volume in terms of transaction rates or users. But typically they're dedicated to achieving a single business goal. or settlements or what have you. And so we still see separate departmental systems growing up and central I S groups not necessarily well integrated and well in control of this new generation of client server systems. In other words we've effectively rebuilt the island of information that we used to talk about five years ago and the key motivation behind enterprise client server is really to integrate the efforts of these two groups. Because recentralization of business my be a correct and and fashionable philosophy or perhaps one that is no longer fashionable I don't know it still needs we believe a global approach a coherent approach to tie these things together so the organization can not only get the benefit of responsiveness and flexibility at a departmental but the leverage to exploit that information on behalf of the organization as a whole. So the key requirement here is accurate and timely information available across the enterprise to the desktop of the users or the management which can potentially reflect the whole business requirements. And that's really the ultimate objective of enterprise client server. Now as we move from the departmental model to the enterprise model of client server computing, quite a few things to change. At the departmental level we might have ten a hundred possibly a thousand users but when we go enterprise-wide there may be thousands or many tens of thousands of users. Our users will no longer be tidily erm situated in building one country one department. They're likely to be geographically dispersed, nationally or internationally. And whereas with departmental approach we may have been satisfied with the ability to do extracts down from our corporate mainframe systems in the enterprise approach we'll look for proper and full integration of the mainframe as an integral part of the environment. In the departmental model as I've already said and often we will typically be looking at a single sweep of requirements a single business function. Essentially a stand alone area of the business. But ultimately those sectors of the business need to be integrated so our enterprise systems will be integrated corporate wide across mo multiple departmental functions. We may have been able to buy our departmental systems from a single vendor. A a server here and a few clients there networking in between and the systems may have been relatively small in terms of their total hardware capacity. But in the enterprise model it is inevitable that our information will be coming from multiple vendors and our data will be in heterogeneous data sources. There will be multiple databases erm databases, relational databases, mainframe databases and external . And also we will encounter new types of users, new erm and users will be different in terms of their erm literacy if you like. They will be different in terms of the sort of interaction they expect to have with computer depending on whether they're data entry people or management users and maybe some of our users are people in the street, our customers er who who will increasingly become users of systems themselves. So whereas in the past we may have been able to think of single user types and single solutions to meet those users. Using single devices be they terminals or erm perhaps Microsoft Windows in the future we'll need to categor deal with the different categories of users and the different devices they have to deal with. And don't forget that our users may not even speak the same language as we take our systems enterprise wide. So in migrating to architecture we're very much focused on what are the real world problems and the real challenges that we need to face to deliver effective and workable solutions. And we need we need to make sure that we don't embark upon this new plan based on a whole pile of suppositions which in fact er lie in a world of fantasy. Er this erm world of fantasy is a very wonderful place because in this world it's very easy to meet peoples' I T requirements. It's certainly inhabited by some and it's certainly inhabited by some . Of course in fantasy land it's very easy to build computer systems. Once you've built your computer system it will run all the time certainly all the time . All the data will live in a nice tidy fashion in a single relational database but what happens. In fantasy land there are no politics so everyone can quite happily agree on how to things and agree on common . And we can impose solutions on our on our users, you know, You users can all have P Cs, you can all have erm dumb terminals. we can decide what you want to use. In fantasy land if we ever have to replace our systems we can of course simple switch off the old one and switch on the new one. . And er in fantasy land erm if you're responsible for I T you're of course very secure in your job you're a very happy employee because vendors will always come along and solve all your problems and ensure your personal security and success. Well we hope that erm by coming here you've demonstrated that you don't live in fantasy land so I'd like to welcome you to the real world and in the real world we know that open systems despite the progress they've made still struggle to replace the mainframe. And even where they have the technology capabilities to start doing this there is clearly little point in replacing an existing system with a new one which simply does the same thing. Even though open systems may be able to meet requirements at a lower cost than perhaps the traditional proprietary systems, if you've already paid for the traditional proprietary system, clearly there is no saving to be made by throwing it away and replacing it with the equivalent functionality on new technology. In the real world there is undoubtedly no such thing as an organization of any size or substance that can say, All my data lives in one source. We actually erm sometimes conduct a little informal surveys in our seminars and meetings as to how many information sources exist in organizations. And these sources will be things like spreadsheets,, relational databases our own and our competitors, and filing systems like R M S, er I M S er databases whatever. The answer is never one the minimum we've come across in an organization is two the typical is five to ten and in some organizations it's going on fifteen. And the number is not likely to reduce as the scope of spreads and as we're offered new technologies, software technologies by vendors. In the real world our users have different requirements and are not going to be slow to tell us what they are. In the real world systems and networks fail so there are times when our systems are not available. And that may be okay in a departmental level but when I had an integrated global enterprise operating in integrated fashion around an integrated I T system then clearly I cannot afford to allow a failure to actually paralyze the system. Of course I have to say that er software fails as well sometimes and indeed one of the problems we all have is that with today's hardware technologies some of the er computers are so fast that it really reaches the bugs rather quicker. Erm there still is no way of designing and managing distributed systems. I've actually taken something of an interest in this over the years and there's no substantive which tells you how to optimize and plan a distributed system in terms of what you do when. And the final point is that vendors will not be able to solve your problem. The decision you make today about which vendor you go with and which technology you go with may be the right decision today and yet may may be the wrong decision tomorrow. You only have to look back over what's er happened over the last few years in terms of for example O S Two, Microsoft Windows, a variety of Unix,and you'll see that technologies will come along and however sound a decision you make at one point in time the market circumstances and potentially mean that what was right for you then not the right . This is the world we have to live with and find a way . So we can view the requirements for enterprise client server really in terms of some paradoxes, and the paradoxes arise because of the conflict between what we actually want to achieve and the constraints of the real world. We would like to have well proven technology, because our systems need to be reliable. And yet we want to be able to exploit new opportunities and new technologies as they come along to get the best out of our systems for our businesses. We will want to be able to build high capacity systems so going to take on the class of applications that have traditionally been associated with a mainframe. And one interesting thing is that as we integrate that system as we double the number of users our requirements the loading on our system may go up by a factor of four. It's kind of an exponential relationship about systems bigger. In fact I've often said that if you show me a system which doesn't have a performance problem then you've shown me a system which is a failure. Because successful systems attract more use and more workload. So we need to build our systems to meet the requirements we have today because we couldn't justify more and yet we have to build in the scale scaleability so that systems can grow to meet the growing requirements which are almost inevitable. The systems need to be capable of integrating and inter-operating with these different technologies. So they need to provide transparent access across technologies and deal with the multi-vendor requirements. In fact er Dan who is the president of the corporation which is one of the sort of user pressure groups in the open systems world has said that, Integration is the highest cost component of nay I T system. For every dollar you spend on software, he alleges that you'll spend between one and a half and two dollars simply on getting that software to work the other software you have. In other words perhaps fifty percent of the spending on I T is wasted in inverted commas because it's simply concerned with tying together what you already have with the new stuff that you want to integrate in. The systems have got to deliver data reliably otherwise they're not of any value at all and yet they're going to have to deal with unpredictable events such as network failure, software failures, hardware failures, user failures or whatever. And we want to be able to provide the controllability that we achieve traditionally through centralization in the mainframe environment in what will inevitably be a distributed world. And our systems need to be consistent because in that way we can manage and control them and yet they need to deal with the variable requirements of our different categories of users. So we'd like our systems to be low risk, to be scalable, to be inter-operable, to be reliable, controllable and and yet still be able to face all the challenges of the of the enterprise client server environment. So that's really the challenges which way the client interacts and what today's er event is about. In the second half we'll be describing how our er new generation of products really seek to address each of those challenges. summary the system architecture which is the focus of today's seminar is really an er a complete environment within which we can deal with the challenges of this new generation of enterprise client server applications. And the underlying here is to provide the control and reliab we've achieved our er our aim in the first half of the seminar. Leading on to the second half I'd er very quickly like to introduce you to Huw er from er one of the U K's if in fact er worldwide now leading er leading developers of of financial software, and he will be er talking to th talking through to you his experiences er in developing with . Thank you. Thank you Garry. Er good morning ladies and gentlemen. I'd like to spend erm a few minutes, hopefully not too long because I'm er known for talking for hours and hours when it comes to our company and our product, but hopefully just a few minutes telling you about our approach to developing an open accounting system. If we go back about two years, a little bit more than two years now, we sat down and considered those areas which were most important to us in developing a new accounting package. First of all we wanted that product to be totally open, and I'll qualify in a minute or two a little bit more what I mean by totally open. I think at the moment suffice to say we wanted a product that would give ourselves and our users total choice and total flexibility. It was important to us in developing a new system now that we are very much of a worldwide supplier of accounting solutions, that we make it truly useable in all countries of the world. Now I struggled to come up with a good word or phrase to describe that, but the one we use for now is multicultural. And I'll go into that area in a little bit more detail in a few minutes. It should be a totally integrated solution, both from the point of view of the accounting application itself, and also the way that we inter-operate with the other applications in a user organization. We were conscious as well that in venturing into this brave new Unix world that accountants being fairly boring individuals, I mean how many accountants do I have in the audience today? I can say that reasonable safely and I can apologize to those people who put their hands up, by saying that I too am c am an accountant by background, and it's fairly brave of me to admit that in front of so many I T people. But we were conscious that an accounting system maintains the corporate financial information and we must protect the integrity of that information. So we must transcend those erm opportunities for security within Unix and ensure that our application will maintain the integrity of data within the system. And finally, and I can't emphasize this strongly enough, in developing our open accounting product we developed a totally new application. We started with a clean sheet of paper, we didn't start with one of our earlier proprietary products and try and convert that to Unix, try to move that into the open systems world. Our approach to accounting has always been one of a a truly integrated nature, and that approach fits like a hand in a glove with relational database technology. So the arrival and use of relational databases has been absolutely perfect for our approach to development of accounting systems. I mentioned a moment ago that we seek er total choice and total flexibility in the utopian open systems world. And the only true way that we can achieve that and that we can deliver that is by adhering to the emerging industry standards. Now on this slide we have a hexagon, there are six probably important facets in terms of standards which we should follow or adopt in the development of the product. If I start at the top with the user interface, then clearly we should use or employ a graphical user interface. In developing a product these days everybody's been very used to using P Cs, using graphical user interfaces, the idea of a mouse, drop- down menus, so on and so forth, and we should employ that technology. And the standard we chose ooh some two years ago was O S F Motif. Now that has clearly been the right choice given that I think Motif has clearly achieved the ascendant over open look. Moving round the picture, networking. Well we should use X-networking standards, and at the moment if a network complies to T C P I P as the communications protocol then we can work with that. And we'll actually look in a minute or two at the different aspects of the application, the different layers of the product, and how those communicate. On documents we must bear in mind with the development of any system that we should support true electronic data interchange. We should have a good and straightforward mechanism for importing documents into our system and exporting documents from our system. And the standard we've chosen to adopt there is Edifact. Now that's probably er one of the least well-defined areas for standards, and I mean if you say Edifact to er a North American user they'll look a bit puzzled, if you say it to somebody who knows something about Edifact they'll say, Which Edifact standard is that? But er those are gradually converging and we believe that's the correct choice. On operating systems we wanted to be as truly hardware independent as we can, so we have chosen to operate potentially under any Posix-compliant operating system, so that gives us all the flavours or brands of Unix and a number of proprietary mid-range operating systems which are achieving Posix compliance as time goes by. Even I B M have stated that O S Four Hundred on the A S Four Hundred will be Posix compliant erm oh certainly within the next twelve months if not somewhat earlier now. Far more relevantly to today's conversations and our host , is the question of databases. As I identified a minute or two ago, our approach to computerizing accounting applications fits hand in glove with the concept of relational database. We need a relational database to store our accounting data in, and whilst our overall approach is that we will work with potentially Ansi S Q L compliant relational database, I would like to emphasize that has been our primary development environment over the last two years. And as a brief but final point on there, what language did we develop our product in? Because we are er developers of a core accounting package which we hope will have many many hundreds of users before the end of this decade, we didn't want to rely on the vendor of a particular Four G L, so we've written our product in C to retain that independence within there. So we've identified a number of standards which we work within, standards for operating system, for database and for user interface. And those lead very clearly into another technology, client server architecture, which we've already touched on a number times during our presentation so far this morning. And I'd like to explain since we find ourselves in the real world, rather than fantasy land, how we've approached the subject of client server. If we start off by considering the accounting application as an object developed in C sitting there in the middle of the screen, we need the ability to talk to the users through a graphical user interface. We need the ability to address the relational database in which we hold our data. And delivered as an integral part of the application are two utilities to give us as much flexibility in achieving that goal as possible. In terms of the user interface, we have an X emulator and controller, XEC as we fondly know it by, erm in order to talk to the user through the users desktop device. Now we're conscious that there are a number of desktop devices available to us today and I'll go into these a little bit more in a moment, and that we want to support concurrent users of many different type of device. And in using Motif and using potentially X terminals as as the most elegant method of delivering that functionality, we can control X and we can emulate X on certain other types of device. Looking at the database our programmers in writing the central application and in developing and enhancing that application, are at one level totally independent at the functional level are totally independent of the underlying database technology. And our database controller understand and knows and talks to the database layer at the bottom. So if that database for example is there is no constraint within the way we use our system or the way we develop our system or indeed the way our system will develop in the future and the way capabilities will develop in the future. Because we're using our database controller to read and to write that database, as more function becomes available, more features become available within the server, the ideas of replication servers and so on an so forth as time goes by, we will be able to exploit that technology or more importantly you as users will be able to exploit that that that technology. I think the the concept I want to get across is that the design of the application does not constrain the way that you implement, firstly a client server technology and secondly the use of your chosen relational database management system. So by separating these individual items of the application, the presentation layer, the application layer and the database layer, we I suppose to say we don't care is the wrong word, we don't mind how much client server or how little client server you want your particular application to be. And indeed if if we broaden the picture out a little bit, and we've talked about the user interface and the relational database, clearly an accounting system can't stand alone. At the left hand side of my diagram we have a number of other applications existing in your environment which need to either provide information to the accounting system, a simple example might be a payroll application passing payroll costs across on a batch basis, it may be a sales order processing system passing invoice information across in real time interactively and indeed requesting information from the accounting application. So we have a powerful set er of open access tools to truly integrate the N application with the other systems running in your environment. And finally to to complete this particular picture, picking up again on a theme that was introduced earlier on, we are using proprietary relational database technology, so there are many other tools which are available to you, for example the ability of Lotus One Two Three to go directly into the database, pull information out, present it in a spreadsheet, present it graphically. Many other tools many other applications for example Forest and Trees, which are all capable of directly accessing the database. So the application is concerned with maintaining the accounting data and maintaining the integrity of that data but you have absolute flexibility in the tools that you use to access it and manipulate it and present it in your organization. And the way that you do that is going to depend on the sort of device which you have on your desk. Now again because of our approach we don't mind what kind of device you use. Arguably the most er elegant delivery of an O S F Motif type graphical user interface is through an X-windows terminal, but I wouldn't imagine very many of many of you have X-windows terminals. They tend to be fairly large and fairly expensive devices. We see an awful lot of people have got a tremendous investment in traditional character cell terminals and by a character cell terminal I mean a dumb terminal of twenty four lines of eighty characters. Erm I if I was talking to an audience in the United States, you'd probably have a somewhat different approach cos over there they seem to throw their desktop devices away every two or three years and replace them with brand new technology. In the U K we seem to keep the equipment for twenty years and then complain if it goes wrong before we have to throw it away. So on a character cell terminal, through our X emulator and controller, we can deliver a Motif style user interface, even on a character terminal. Clearly the degree of definition we can go to is only one character, but we have drop down menus we have the ability to move pop up windows and dialog boxes, the ability to scroll horizontally and vertically within those windows, and the ability to emulate the use of a mouse by the use of arrow keys and the numeric keypad on an ordinary character terminal. So we can deliver a consistent graphical user interface across a number of different devices in your organization, used concurrently with the accounting application. And in between the P C which we find on many peoples desks may be emulating a character terminal, may be emulating erm an X-terminal to provide that user interface to an individual. Now I think in our experience so far we find that erm the accounts clerks in the back office are those who are most likely to be bashing away at the character terminals, those are the people who are bashing data into the system. And they understand those devices and work with them very well, they're not particularly interested in a mouse and all sorts of graphical facilities because their job in life is to get information quickly into and quickly out of the system. Many people in a management position maybe using P Cs on their desk, I mean those move more and more into the organization as people work with spreadsheet people work with electronic mail and so on and so forth, and the ability to use the P C as their terminal, their window into the accounting application, but secondly they have these tools such as spreadsheets which again are able to directly access the database and the accounting data maintained within it. So in performing a particular query there are many ways of skinning a cat. Somebody may use standard enquiry facilities within the accounting system, they may use the report writing tools that are provided with the accounting system or they may use other things, Forest and Trees, Lotus, Excel, so on and so forth which run on their P C which they know and which they love. And it may be entirely appropriate to use any one of those for one style of enquiry depending on the preferences of the individual, that's what we mean by flexibility and freedom of choice, we don't want to constrain a particular individual to working in a certain way. I can't resist the temptation while I'm here just to tell you one or two things about the accounting application. Er because I don't have a group of accountants in front of me I'm not going to go on about debits and credits and so on and so forth. But just to consider one or two aspects which we mentioned earlier on as being important to us. In working in years gone by with proprietary applications we've been able to rely to a large extent on security facilities provided by the operating system. We can no longer realistically do that in the open systems world. So we need to ensure that we provide security at a number of levels, accounting type security which may be er the the limit to the amount I can write off in a cash in a cash matching process for example. Functional security, which is going to give me effectively er access restriction to the system by the menu options the drop down menu choices. Taking that level of security down to individual data items, what what areas of my chartered account can I update what areas can I look at? And that's important to us because we can give erm people who are responsible for a particular department full and immediate access to the data which relates only to their department and not the wider organization. But we do need to consider a couple of other areas. One which I've defined there with the word views. We are aware that we can control the method of access by users though our application, but there are other tools they are using in in the company to access the corporate relational database and your database controller must be aware of those tools and implement the same controls on those views of that information within the database. And very importantly to the accountant, the way that we can ensure that we maintain the integrity of the accounting data, is by exploiting checksum techniques in the database to ensure that the only valid way of u of updating the accounting data is through the accounting application and that's it's therefore properly secure and properly audit trailed. I mentioned culture briefly earlier on er I'd like to define that a little bit better by saying we want a user sitting down in any part of the world to be able to use the product which we develop and feel that it is an accounting application developed for their world and their market place. Not an American product which is being bent to their requirements, not an English product which is being bent to their requirements. And there are immediately two areas which are very obvious and straightforward, those of currency and language. We must for example be able to use concurrent users of the same accounting information in many different languages. But we need to take our consideration beyond that a little way in thinking about the accounting customs and legal requirements of the different countries. The taxation needs, it's not just V A T it varies in the European Community, it where it varies in a wider Europe and the world at a whole. So we need to be able to address those different requirements. And one which we o often overlooked was dealing properly with the different banking requirements of other parts of the world. I mean back in the early nineteen eighties when we sold our first er system abroad we were quite surprised to find out that the French didn't have a road called Edgeware Road and an organization called B A C S on it. We need to ensure that we can comply with the banking mechanisms of the different parts of the world. Another strength of using proprietary relational database technology is that we can use many report writers which are available to access that database, not only the accounting data but potentially all of the corporate data to pull out not only accounting reports but reports which combine information as necessary, partly from the accounting system, partly from the sales order processing system, partly from the inventory system, whatever they may be. And so within our accounting database we'll have various types of master file information, transactions, balances, some of that information may have been archived but still be available to us. With a single relational report writer we can gain ready and easy access to all of that information. A very brief commercial, just a little bit about . Erm I mean is a a British private limited company. Erm I'm actually based in our Harrogate office which is our corporate worldwide headquarters, we consider that to be the centre of the universe. But over the years as an organization we've grown organically and geographically quite significantly, such that while in the U K we're in Harrogate and Basingstoke, we have an ever increasing presence in North America, Europe, the Far East and Australasia. And our philosophy as a truly worldwide supplier of accounting software is that we should increase our presence in different parts of the world as our sales and marketing activity there merits it. We've seen a very controlled and steady growth over the thirteen years that we've been in business and I think as you can see there year on year we have consistently increased turnover and increased profitability. So to give you an idea of our size although we may be a little bit smaller than last year we turned over some eighteen million pounds and declared a profit before tax of just over three point one million pounds. One of my slides that didn't appear there, erm we're just going to mention one or two other points on erm our customer base. Now the open systems world is a very new world to us, we have three earlier proprietary products, the first of which we started selling in nineteen eighty. And we actually have more than eight hundred and fifty users of our accounting software installed in more than forty countries worldwide. And to tie in to a couple of things mentioned earlier on. I noticed that amongst our user list we count, an organization called and we also count an organization called . So clearly many of the things do are very right and very appropriate and probably one of the rightest was to choose accounting software on which to er prepare their corporate accounts. Thank you very much for listening to me patiently, I said I would try to keep that down to erm a fairly brief session. What I would like to do now is to reintroduce Phill who addressed us a little bit earlier this morning who's going to tell us a little bit more about enterprise client server solutions. Phill, over to you. Thank you. We've heard a lot this morning er about the merits of client server and where it's come from in the last five years. Before the break John talked about erm some of the requirements for moving that architecture towards erm the enterprise-wide solution. So what I'd like to do right now is explain how System Ten will be the way to deliver enterprise client server solutions. And I'll do this by describing each of the System Ten products that resolve the paradoxes of the I T department. We mentioned earlier the paradoxes which were that for instance erm we're looking for a low risk investment or our customers are looking for a low risk investment, they tell us they need well proven technology but that needs to be advanced technology. SQL Server is flagship product. It's the foundation for client server and other products in the family. It's well proven having been shipped since nineteen eighty seven but provides new advanced technology with the new System Ten release. We talk about for instance reliable data delivery and transaction delivery. We need to be able to do business whether or not the network is unavailable or whether or not the system fails, we still need to make business decisions. Based on best available information. Replication server is a way to guarantee data delivery where it's needed and when it's needed. And we'll come on to talk about that in a lot more depth during the presentation. We talk about scaleability if we are indeed to entice mainframe style applications towards the open systems platforms then we need to behilosophy as a truly worldwide supplier of accounting software is th software components with a low entry cost. Navigation server is designed to handle massive amounts of data and users, but is still totally scalable from very small machines. We talked about each department erm being able to invest in their own technology and make their own er decisions on what sort of database or interface they would use to deploy their applications. But if we grow a client server towards the enterprise solution, we've already talked about the straw pole that we often do where it indicates to us that the average number of er data repositories or data sources in an organization is more than ten. So our customers are looking for multi-vendor transparency. Omni SQL Gateway provides transparent access to homogeneous and heterogeneous data sources. We also talked about the need to be able to control this vastly more complex new environment as if we were controlling a mainframe. with System Ten has announced a family of control servers which will enable us to control this network of servers and clients as if it was a single machine. And finally in terms of prod productivity each of our users have varied requirements, but we need to provide them with a consistent solution. Enterprise client sar server tools erm is a very important part of strategy. With acquisition of Gain multimedia tools and the unveiling of a leading edge tool strategy in June of this year, should now be considered as a major player in the tools arena. Providing tools that empower the user with all of the data which is available through the System Ten architecture in a form which is appropriate to all of the users. During the rest of the presentation what I will endeavour to do is describe each of the components of the System Ten architecture which is represented by this slide. Before I do that I'd like to describe SQL Server Ten which is the cornerstone of client server solution. SQL Server as we said is well proven technology, it's been around about five years. Five thousand customers have written many thousands of mission critical business applications using the SQL Server. It's designed from day one to address client server. It incorporates technology which our competitors are only now putting in their solutions. Still procedures, triggers, and R P Cs. The new release of SQL Server SQL Server Ten is a hundred percent Ansi compliant. So we have such facilities as cursors, and Ansi declarative referential integrity. And that's not to say that they replace triggers, because they are actually have a very important role to play in terms of being able to er maintain arbitrary business rules and model the way your organization works, inside the database repository. I'm going to be talking a bit more later in the presentation about back up and back up performance which is one of the key areas which erm organizations trying to support very large databases have come across as a as a as a major stumbling block or hurdle to get across. And have er implemented something called the backup server to get over that hurdle in the System Ten release. Also the SQL Server Ten incorporates C two level security we also have a B one compliant database for government applications. So we're have in such things as password encryption and auditing. And these are sorts of facilities which we'll will need if we're going to erm enable central I S or I T departments to use and therefore charge back that facility to each of the departments using that resource. But SQL Server alone will not address all the needs of enterprise- wide client server. It needs to evolve in several ways to meet these needs. As I go through the rest of the presentation you'll see erm the agenda slides highlighting the area of the architecture we're talking about in the section. So right now I'm going into a section talking about distributed servers. During the nineteen seventies a lot of research work was done on distributed database technology by such people as I B M, Digital, and other database pioneers such as. Their intention was focused on some of the huge benefits that distributed database might deliver. And these expected benefits were things such as performance, data could reside closer to its point of most frequent use. And multiple databases could act in parallel. It included such things as reliability. With centralized systems, if the computer goes down, the entire system goes down, but we still need to make business decisions. With distributed database systems we could continue with a couple of things mentioned earlier on. I noticed that amongst our us includes capacity and scaleability since a database could span multiple machines, the capacity of any one machine would no longer limit the database size. These needs lead to a number of different database technologies which are represented on this slide, and the first one I'd like to focus on is replication. Replication meets the need for reliability in a distributed environment. Whereas businesses are moving to more and more decentralized operations, business units still need to have instantaneous access to information. Access to data wherever they are no matter what location. Distributed transactions guarantee that data at each node is synchronized as it changes. A global model of the business delivered to who needs it when they need it where they need it. But as I've already mentioned distributed database theory has been around a long time. The model suggested has not met with widespread acceptance. It doesn't necessarily address all of the needs of the real world. At we believe there are two types of distributed database application. There are those where mission critical business decisions can only be made based on absolute up to date information. These applications require absolute synchronization of related data at every site in the distributed database. And for this we would use Two Face Commit technology. Two Face Commit for those who're not pu er familiar with it is an all or nothing approach. If any one node in the distributed database is unavailable, the transaction will not complete on any other. If we took an example of a of a launching of the space shuttle. In those types of applications those types of systems, we cannot afford inavailability of information we need to invest significant sums of money if fault tolerant hardware in mirrored disks in duplex networks. This investment can only be justified for systems where transactions have a huge value to that business. Two Face Commit is the software technology that supports these types of systems. has had Two Face Commit technology for five years in support of that style of application. However we believe there's a second type of distributed database application more appropriate for general commercial use. Very few organizations the first model due to its prohibitive cost. Replication Server takes a revolutionary approach to distributed database for those organizations who don't need absolute data synchronization but the nee need the advantages of up to date data at ll of its points of most frequent use. The need reliable data delivery in the event of system failures without the prohibitive cost of fault tolerant hardware. Replication server is based on our primary subscriber model. Each subscriber on the network, we might represent the primary as the server on the left and the other two server as subscribers. Each subscriber registers its interest in a data item on the primary replication server. The primary replicates data changes or transactions to subscribers as updates or inserts occur on that primary server. So this model uses a loose synchronization. There's a latency between the primary changing and the secondary data changing since the primary will change and then we replicate across the network to each secondary location. But that's measured in fractions of seconds. And this is e such facilities as I'd now like to talk about high capacity and solution for that requirement in enterprise-wide client server. Often in the open systems arena applications will grow beyond the capacity of any single machine. Traditionally when systems have grown this large companies have employed proprietary solutions, hardware software combinations. And these systems lose the advantages of open architecture for instance we talked about having over two hundred front end tools accessing database. And are typically good at either online transaction processing or decision support but not a combination of both. And without this capacity how can we expect large scale mainframe users to down-size or right-size into open systems. response to these requirements is rep is navigation server. Navigation server is a software extension to the S Q L Server. It optimises it for distributed massively parallel processing. It creates the appearance of a single virtual machine on a network. However in fact behind a navigator or a navigation server there will be any number of SQL Servers working on parallelized S Q L. Now this solution provides us with total linear scaleability, as we run out of processing power we will add another node to the environment and take advantage of all of the processing power of that node using parallel S Q L. This is a hundred percent software solution it's not a hardware software combination. Developed on S V R four with N C R. And it's a key point that this is a combination of work which have done with N C R and the first release of Navigation Server will be available on the N C R thirty six hundred architecture. Which enables us to have many hundred erm Intel processors in a single hardware cabinet. So we would run many SQL Servers with a Navigation at the front. But other platforms will come in the future so we can see us using sta very low cost standard hardware components, we might stack up erm half a dozen or a dozen erm workstations with a high speed interconnect between them each running a SQL Server. We've now created this virtual machine which is no longer constrained by the absolute size of any one component within that machine. And we can add workstations to that virtual machine as we need more processing power. So we have high capacity with low entry cost using standard components. So we're now able to support mainframe class applications with thousands of users in this data centred type database running thousands of applications with a mixture of decision support and online transaction processing. As we've already suggested this is a cost effective solution it is a software only solution and enables us to use lots of erm low cost hardware components. I we come back again to those distributed database issues and tackle transparency. As I as we've said this is a requirement which is consistent with enterprise-wide client server. As we expand the client server architecture to become a universal solution we will need to integrate more diverse sources of information. We will need to leverage our customers existing investments in other technology. We will need to provide an evolutionary approach to migrating from one technology to another so we're not forcing our customers down the fantasy land alternative. John's already stolen my thunder on the straw poll erm that I was going to do but suffice to say that we normally do that at these types of seminars and there's always a few people in the room who put their hands up and say they've got more than ten data sources in their organization. And if truth be known there are many more in that audience. In the real world we have to recognize that we cannot convert customers to only use the database. We must be able to provide a level of transparency that shields users and the programmers from not only where the data is stored but in which relational database management system. solution is Omni SQL Gateway no other product delivers the level of transparency that Omni provides. Omni SQL Gateway provides complete location and vendor transparency. All the clients on the network are programmed using a single dialect of S Q L so our programmers no longer have to know the nuances and differences between each of the proprietary extensions of the SQL of each database they're programming against. They s use a single a dialect which is Transact S Q L S Q L implementation. All of the sources on the on the network look like so for instance I can do joins across two heterogeneous R D B M Ss. you can have a table with departments in , employee's in Oracle, and salaries in D B two and I could use a single select statement and join all that information together in a single request to the Omni SQL Gateway. But what I can also do is leverage the power of client server extensions to S Q L. We talked about pioneering efforts in stored procedures and triggers. I can actually use Omni SQL Gateway and write stored procedures stored procedures against all of the data sources it supports including for instance D B two. So I'm not limited because I'm by the lowest common denominator of other gateway approaches. And because the Omni SQL Gateway looks identical to a SQL Server on the network we still have the ability to integrate and front end tool. So I still have over two hundred front end tools which can access data from the Omni SQL Gateway which actually has physical data stored in many different types of vendor's repositories. A wonderful example for today since we're in Leeds is er United Leeds it also e such facilities as typically they're very used to the mainframe environment and what the mainframe environment offers. The mainframe is a single machine sitting in a darkened room. It's easy to control. It's a single physical piece of hardware. It's technology which is mature, it's been around about thirty years, and there's lots of good sophisticated control tools for managing that environment. As we move to the brave new world of client server we're talking about a technology which is indeed fairly immature, is more difficult to control, and is essentially quite complex. As we move towards wide area networks of servers then we have something which is a very sophisticated system for delivering information. One of partners is Stores who are implementing a strategic store-based application which involves having an R S six thousand in every single shop with a SQL Server on every single box. With three hundred and sixty SQL Servers, there's no way they're going to have a D B A in every store. What they need is centralized control as if they had a single mainframe. So aim with our control servers is to deliver mainframe controllability in an open distributed environment. One of the components of the control server family is the backup server which is part of the SQL Server Ten release. Traditionally open system database backups have been constrained by the speed of any one backup device. The backup server that is providing at release ten has or employs device striping to provide linear scaleability of the backup to multiple da tape and disk devices. So I could have for instance thirty two tape devices running in parallel to back up my database. So for instance if my backup window is an hour and that's how long it take me to backup my database today, if had the backup server and I was using one device it took an hour, if I used two it would learn one dialect of S Q L. as incorporating in partnership with Tivoli such standards as D M E and D C E which Tivoli indeed helped to define. So this incorporates controllability of the network, the hardware as well as the database architecture. Earlier we described a paradox which was that each user or group of users has a different need for information and the way that is presented to him. Furthermore this is compounded by the wealth of different types of desktop devices for presentation of information. What I'd like now like to do is to describe some of the components of tools strategy to enable and empower us to deliver enterprise-wide client server solutions. However no matter what the user or device requirement there is a requirement for one thing and that remains critical and constant. And that requirement is productivity. Back in the nineteen seventies computer hardware was very expensive and difficult to use. Only highly trained professionals dared to interact with a computer. In the nineteen nineties with the tumbling costs of hardware we can adv afford to provide more and more people in our enterprise-with access to a computer or the information within in. And this simply shifts the cost of providing that solution to an investment in the people and not the computer hardware. So we need to train them to use our systems and we need to be concentrating on the productivity not just of the programmer which is traditional what we've done with Four G Ls but the productivity of the end user. The user community will run into thousands and thousands and therefore this is our biggest investment in our I T infrastructure. Today in many large organizations we'll see three generations of desktop delivery mechanism, the old dumb terminal, the thirty se tw thirty two seventy dumb terminal for instance. Delivering character based data to the desktop. People have then migrated towards using G U I typically at departmental level. They'll have standardized on one particular G U I delivery mechanism. Which is traditionally you know Windows Three, Open Look or Motif, maybe O S Two. And then into the future where will that G U I capability lead us? Well we've already talked briefly and we've seen a video about Gain Multimedia and how that might enable us to address application requirements in a different way. With applications that actually look like the way you do business. And traditionally these three types of delivery mechanism mean we have to rewrite or recode applications in their entirety for each type of device. That's further compounding the maintenance burden on the I T department or the information systems provider. has three components to its client architecture to address the needs of the different users and the different devices. Each component has been announced as part of the System Ten announcement and in fact A P T and Gain Multimedia are available in production today. In June will be announcing a complete architecture which welds these technologies together, providing an object based integrated environment for all user requirements and device types. So indeed we do not need to rewrite applications for each different type of device or user. Well what we'd like to do now is just try and address each of those different Four G Ls in the architecture. First is A P T which is essentially a heads down data entry facility. So that me we may have for instance erm order entry clerks entering many many orders per day. They actually don't spend too much time looking at the screen, they're actually using dumb terminals to enter data very quickly. And therefore we have a low cost er per seat of entering that information into the system. That's a procedural thing, we do one thing, we do another then we do the other, then we come back and do it again. And that type of application is very well erm very well used by dumb terminal applications. Enterprise G U I will enable us to take advantage of erm G U I desktop devices such as Windows Three. This is a type of environment used by decision makers where they may be working on one piece of information in the application and they need to make a decision based on an information which is elsewhere in the application. So they'll move from one window to another make a decision on that information in the other window and come back to what they were doing before. This is a non procedural approach to making decisions based on the information inside the system which has been entered by the dumb terminal users the heads down data entry. And for this we would use object based technology, object oriented technology to enable us to have this business processes modelled inside the desktop. And for the future of applications we talked about Gain and Multimedia and what that might deliver in applications that look like your business. Where we can deliver applications where the users actually don't need training. This is a self training interface. Enterprise G U I is a tool which is presently in development er which is subject to an announcement in the June timeframe and in fact actually at the next customer update which is providing erm in June. It's a repository based G U I development environment which is using object based technology. It enables us to develop application on for instance Windows Three and exploit all of the functionality and features of Windows and deploy on Open Look, Motif and Macintosh. It will enable us to develop applications on Macintosh, taking advantage of all the features of Macintosh and deploy on Windows, Motif and Open Look. And that is a G U I environment which is robust and native. We don't emulate Windows Three in Open Look, we don't emulate the Macintosh on Windows Three. We use all of the native widget sets so we're not using the lowest common denominator approach. But one thing which makes this product stand out from the crowd is its ability to to address the needs of work group computing. Based on its object based repository. So I can develop application code and share that across my work group or the department of developers. So this is where we believe the market place is today with application development in the G U I desktop. We've already seen a brief glimpse of of of of Gain Multimedia. This is the type of technology which may indeed eventually replace the traditionally data entry heads down data entry facility and user. We have a an order entry clerk who's now ordering hundreds of orders a day and that is from a printout from our customers and that printout has come form the computer system of our customers. And they have a data entry clerk who's entered that order onto their system and then printed it out. So we have several levels of interaction with a computer in terms of entering information. Multimedia will enable us to place a console or our system or an extension of our information infrastructure in our customer's environment and enable them to interact with our systems though an interactive self teaching sentry rich environment. So we can get rid of all of those different costly interactions with a computer with er interactions of com of of paper output erm dumb terminal input paper output dumb terminal input. So all this can be do done and integrated through Multimedia. One er one of Gain's first customers in the U S was er E D S. E D S have er will be using Gain technology to deliver erm what they're calling console applications for the World Cup in nineteen ninety four in U S A. So that in the in the er the World Cup environment there will be kiosks around thes the er the the training camps for instance where players or er fans can go up and touch using a touch screen can see the er the the highlights of the last Cameroon versus England game, they can find out where the nearest Indonesian restaurant and they can find out the team news for the next game. And all of this using Gain's multimedia capabilities. So we're extending the way that information systems can be used by users who traditionally have not been en empowered or enabled to get at that information. One of the other key partners of Gain Multimedia is Sun. If you buy a certain level support from Sun Microsystems, they will ship you an application which is built using Gain Multimedia. And that application is a self teaching way to use a S Sun Unix workstation. Traditionally if you buy a w unix workstation and you turn it on out of the box, look at the screen and you'll see a percent sign. What do you do next? You turn to the manual and try and work out how it's going to how you're going to interact with it. Well Gain Multimedia will enable you to turn on the workstation and it will talk to you, it will show you videos, it will show you animation as to how that workstation should be used to best advantage. So System Ten is the culmination of several years of work that we've been doing with other hardware and software vendors but most importantly with our customers. We've worked together to make sure our products address the needs of the real world. approach is one which is essentially pragmatic. I've talked during my presentation about each of the paradoxes which we laid out at the beginning of the morning which talked about the diverse needs of different parts of an enterprise from their information systems if we are to deliver the adv er the advantages of enterprise-wide client server. I hope that we have proved today that SQL Server is well proven advanced technology, Replication Server enables us to deliver data to who needs it, where they need it, when they need it even if there are system failures, that Navigation Server provides us with a high capacity with a low entry cost, that Omni SQL Gateway enables us to have complete vendor transparency and integrate all information for decision support. I hope that we've been able to convey the way that Control Servers will enable you to control the client server environment as if you're controlling a mainframe, and I sincerely hope that we've been able to talk erm knowledgeably knowledgeably about our tool strategy and how we can address the needs of each different group of users with different desktop devices in a consistent manner. is committed to deliver solutions for real world problems. has set the client server agenda for other vendors for four years, and with System Ten we hope to continue to do so. Before we finish, what I'd like to do is erm show you a video, another testimonial from er one of strategic partners which is the courier company. Er once we've showed you that video, Garry's gonna come back and just sum up very briefly and then we'll open the floor for questions and answers. Thank you. time. Er one thing that does intrigue me following Phill's presentation is how the average British football fan will cope with a a Gain Multimedia workstation in Atlanta in the World Cup. Er could be quite interesting. Erm I get the easy bit after Phill's difficult presentation, er talking around nice slides like this and yes that's the yellow brick road around what we've talked about this morning. Er a quick summary because we have overrun. Er just as we owned that famous street in New York I'd like to think with the technology and the architecture that can deliver today we we'll own the road to enterprise client server. Er and you can all read what we've talked about there. That's where we've come from, we've talked about what's what's a available today, and we've talked about where we'd like to take our users in the future. Er and I can think of erm nothing better than to leave you with this slide er which I think sums up where we're coming from today and what we'd like you to take away from today. Er I'd like to i ask our presenters this morning to join me on the stage to take any questions from the floor and ask if you could er fill in your er y y your sur your sheets on the on today's events before you leave please. Er there is an information pack er to take away with you and er in reverse order you've seen the film you can read the book. Within that pack there is erm er if you like the book that takes you through the slides that have been put up there today. Er so please if there are any questions er let's have them. Someone's someone's got to be first. Yes sir? Is it possible to store er CAD information or is it basically er ASCII? Yeah the question was, Is it possible to store CAD information on the database? Er Phill answer that one? Yeah I can answer that. Erm absolutely. Erm one of the things that is very good at is in in technical applications such as CADCAM. Erm we're very strong in the manufacturing arena and there's several applications based on on er which are u delivering CAD solutions in fact. Erm so yes we can And in fact the Gain video that you saw incorporates some CAD drawing as well. So yes it is absolutely appropriate for that sort of application. Anyone else? Yes? How much stock if any stock does N C R hold? Repeat the question. Repeat the question for anybody who didn't hear that How much stock if any does N C R hold in ? Well I will answer that er holds no stock of the product because the product is er the the current products are sold by us exclusively. Er some of the new products er you talk we talked about like Navigation Server we will be working with N C R on precisely we'll be shipping those products. Yes open systems in the Unix context erm what plans do you have to integrate with N T as and when it becomes available? Yeah the question was er what are our plans to integrate with N T as and when it becomes available? Er perhaps one of the things that wasn't mentioned this morning is our relationship with with Microsoft in that the the Microsoft SQL Server for a the O S Two environment is actually a developed product er and we have a joint marketing agreement on that. Again John if you want to pick on the on the on the Well you can be assured that we have a very close relationship with Microsoft and Microsoft will er tell you the same story. In fact erm when for example Microsoft Access was reduced it included in the box the O D B C driver to access the SQL Server database. We'll be available on N T erm I don't think I can say concurrently with the availability of N T cos A no one knows the availability of N T and secondly there will inevitabl be some lag, but it will be very soon as quick as we can make it after that. Erm also of course erm N T is not just a platform for the Intel machines. So erm N T is significant to Sequent and to Digital and they're target platforms for us as well. Yes? How does er O D B C fit in with erm sort of Microsoft and er future? Again the question there, How does the O D B C fit in with the Microsoft and er future? Phill? Okay. Erm we mentioned already today about A P A P I on the desktop called erm Open Client. And that is a er an A P I which is very similar in approach to O D B C in that it enables you using a consistent interface to get at any data source within the organization. This that was erm ahead of the standards if you like, and we also need to follow standards and be standards conformant and O D B C is the first implementation of S Q L Access Group is standard for the desktop. As John has already said, when s er Microsoft first introduced Access and therefore the O D B C software, the only database which had the driver bundled in with the the box was SQL Server. So we're very committed to O D B C. It is one standard which we're following, it is an alternative A P I for the desktop which is obviously strong because of the Microsoft relationship, erm but we will also foth follow other standards in terms of A P Is for the desktop as well. Is there any erm is there sort of clash in using the er the Omni S Q L Gateway and O D B C? No none at all. In fact when we ship the O Omni SQL Gateway we also ship erm the catalogue tables for O D B C with the Gateway, so they work in combination. Right. With the Omni SQL Gateway that er you'll be be able to access D B two data is that still going through the Open SQL Server or is that actually going D R D A or are there plans to go D R D A compliant? I don't think I need to repeat that I think everyone can hear the questions er Okay erm in terms of the technical erm way it works erm the O Omni SQL Gateway does go through the Open Server for Kix at the moment and I think John could probably comment on the I B M relationship. Yeah as part of the activity at Uniforum last week erm I B M made certain announcements. There was certainly the announcement of a relationship with us because I B M share this vision of the enterprise client server model in integration of the mainframe into the open systems environments. They also announced a thing called D R D A two. I think that announcement was actually made I told it was going to be and has committed to support D R D A two and that effectively provides an alternative A P I perhaps as O D B C with Microsoft's backing will become the norm in the P C environment, D R D A will be in the I B M environment. Part of D R D A two is er Two Face Commit coordination which we're also committed to support. So that will actually mean that a single transaction can span say D B two or indeed other I B M data sources in a database. Well I'm conscious we kept you a long time this time this morning and I certainly do appreciate your attendance and presence. Er Sorry. Helen? Can I just ask one thing? Some of you have managed to escape already without filling in your seminar . Erm could I ask you all to do that before you leave please? I think what that means is you can't get past Helen unless you do fill that in critiques. Er agai once again thank you for your time and attendance this morning. There's been an awful lot of information imparted. We sincerely hope that's been of use to you. Er and obviously there are certain er a number of people er surrounding you. Feel free to to hang around and ask some more specific questions if you wish. Er but thank you for your attendance and safe journey. Hello well my own name's Elizabeth of Dalvaine Glen Ayloch is that what you mean? Mhm. And er I've been there all my life and that's and that'll be eighty seven years old come May and er I've just worked on the farm all my days and er then of course when my people died I just er stayed myself, and then lived with other people here and there, just to help them. And then I came down to Kerry after my operations because I was er for my feet, I had to get them amputated because For the hardening of the arteries Mhm. but they did very, they did marvellous things for me down in in Dundee Mm. so that I can now walk fine with my plastic legs . And then I come down to Kerry all winter because it's not good for me to stay up there myself all winter and I have got good lodgings here. So you're three years short of your ninetieth birthday. Yes I'm that. Aha Can you recall much about your young days, Elizabeth, up Glen Ayloch Oh yes oh well just ordinary country country days, just you worked on the farm. You got up in the early morning and helped in the farm, milked the cows,fed my cows and calves and looked the pigs, and then you'd hens and chickens and the pet lambs and things like that. And then of course at er the time of the lambing time you had to go out and help with the lambing time,you know, to help the shepherds with If he'd a weakling lamb you'd always to bring it in the house and then feed it in a bottle. Mm. And keep it warm and then er if you had er Then you had the chickens to you had to set the clucking hens and and bring out as many chickens as you could. And then after, in the winter, and then after that when it was near hay time, I had to go out and help with the hay. That was gathering it in and if they were putting it into little into tramp coles I had to get up and tramp hay round and round the boss and er I did that . And what exactly were the tramp coles Tramp aha, it was tramp coles they called them, they were ricks you know and you got into and you put up the hay and you tramped round and round you see? And er helped all you could and then er You used a a boss with the ricks? Yes there was a boss in the middle and then they put that up. What was the boss like? Oh it was a three poi pointed thing. I it was er, you know, three three points like this. Mm. You see like that and Like like the tripod? Yes just like that. But it was er we call it the boss. And we called them tramp coles but a lot of them called them tramp ricks. But it was er in er our country district it was er hay coles tramp coles then. And then after the hay time it was er wearing on to harvest time. And I had to help with the harvest too. And when I was younger we hadn't a binder, we just had the ordinary mower. And er you went round and his father did er what they called the sheaf. He sat on this mower you see and and er as it cut the sheafed it off you see and we'd to make bands,y you know with pieces of s er And then the lifters put that on the bands and bound them and through the the site. So that was a whole days work often. How many sheaves were in your rick? Oh I couldn't say for that. Now can can you just There'd be cart there would be two cart loads anyway to making er the hay To make er That was in the harvest time for the harvest it would be oh nearly three three cart loads of sheaves for a for a stack. For a stack? Yes for a stack. But how about the weer ricks? Oh the the ha that was also You had that for er the harvest you had er to build the sheaves all round it, you see, too. And how how did you make these weer ones? The the you know th the hay ricks? The hay ricks oh they were just er They were the same but they were no pointed like the h hay the Like they have er time of the harvest time, the hay ricks was just round and round and =nd =d sloped up to a point. And then er a and then after they had been in hay ricks for a long time they were brought up to the farm and built into a bigger stack, a bigger thing. How were they they brought up? Brought up with a with a cart. Cart and er they put er what we called a big thing over the hays The hay Called that the hayrick over the . And then the when they were built Sometimes some folk used to build them into what they called a hay soo It was a square kind of a thing but er and I don't know why they put it into a hays hay soo as we say,but it seemed to er it seemed to be better to keep the h the wet out I suppose. But in our days at home we just put it into a a a great big hay stack as we said,. Did everyone up Glen Ayloch use the boss? Yes everybody used the boss, everybody. Mhm. And in fact the bigger farms than ours, they used to have a circle of stones. Round, you know, to keep it up off off the ground, and to keep it aired. And what were they called? Er erm what do you call them again? It was the the found, F O U N D, the found, you know the foundation. But just ordinary language it was called the found. Mm. The found of the stack. You never used the the word staffel stanes No we that's was from No we didn't different Mhm. Was brushwood ever used? No n Well yes a lot of it was brushwood or the or erm branches of the birch trees that was that was laid out for that Above the stones and then you put that above. Now can you tell me in a wee bit more detail how you did that? Well it was just their own The the found of the thing was just built of big stones round about the size of the bottom of a stack. And then they've got er branches of the From the wood or er or sometimes people did broom and put it on. Mhm. So that's er all that I can say about that you see? And then of course the hay st the hay stack was built in a different style by the harvest stack it was built different. But the foun the foundation was the same. Mm. What was the difference? The It was different because the haystack was r rounded, you see? And built er well well you was when you was building the hay the harvest You see the sheaves was different you see? They were all built round and round and up until they came to what they called the the e the part of the stack where they begin to to make it up to the top, you see? And it was er They used to great pride in their in their er stacks because they had to make them as neat as they could and er well built, so that if the So that w that was good for the To keep the the wind keep them dry. And er and then people took great interest in making as bonny as they could in the top, to make a fancy top what they called erm c corn dollies. Er you've maybe heard of that. Now tell me about this. Well er they did them They made them f f fancy kind of things on the top like a They would maybe crisscrosses and things like that and m make a rounded thing like a Just like what some folk has a tassel on their bonnets, well we made that on the top of the stack. And every farm used to Farmer lad used to see where Who could make the best looking one. Then there was always the harvest home dance, and then the school, that was the only place we had to dance in that day and they had it decorated with various kinds of the the the c corn dollies and erm What type of shapes of corn dollies were there? Oh they were they were er crisscrosses and er and r and some of them would be rounded. But most of them were just a a crisscross kind of a thing and then some would be have a round bit and then this little corn dolly this little n knob on the top. That was that was you see. Mhm. like that. That wasn't the same thing as the maiden? The maiden's the we what we called the maiden was the last sheaf, it was cut er the last sheaf in the on the er on the fields was called the maiden sheaf. It was great thing to keep it and it was always kept and looked after until the following year. Who who got the maiden? Oh the whoever the whoever the farmer At least the it used the What would I say? The grieve on the farm. We didn't have a grieve it was just my brothers that was there at the time. But the sheaf was always cut The last sheaf was cut then it was er put in the barn and kept there for the year and that was called the maiden sheaf. Mm. And what was the the purpose behind the custom? Oh it was just er just I suppose luck, just an idea to have the last sheaf it was called the maiden sheaf. Mhm. And every farmer up the glen would do this? Oh yes everybody had their last sheaf. Th Looked after it, aha. Oh great competition it was, in my day about who could build the best stack er you know both in the hay coles and the and the harvest time. So And then of course we had our own thrashing mill and we did our own thrashing but it was great fun down the glen when they got the thrashing mill in. It was er you know they came with a big traction engine and the thrashing mill and then they they got up early in the morning and there was the man that looked after the thrashing mill and fork from the carts onto the onto the mill. Then there was somebody cutting string, cutting the sheaves you see? And then there was the man to look after the rest of the straw and another one for the what we called the calf And the corn, oh it was a great day the day the thrashing mill came to the glen. What was done with the calf The calf was er the calf was the chaff you know from that. Aha that was just went in It was all blown to the side and that was it was kept just for the for the carol beasts for the sheds you see, for the that was what the what we saw what they bedded them down with that. Mm. The calf Mhm. And and and say your mother and grandmothers day was it used for tykes at all? Er yes they did that. Yes the best if there was a dry time a dry stack, they kept that very best but for the calf beds,both for the bothy and the house. You know there was no downs fancy things in my day when they were I was little you see? Mm. Going back to the harvest time Mhm. Yeah. Away back in time or maybe what your Yes. mother told you, Yes. did folk come from other parts to help with the harvest? Yes the tinkers used to come up from Blair Gowrie to to do that long ago. I remember myself, one time we had we had two grand fields and it were They were almost ripe when it came an awful time of rain, and they were just a sort of flattened. So father had to get the men up from Blair Gowrie, there was six of them that came. Er well there was and their wives. And they just had this the er er You know the what was I to say they had their their s scythes to cut the What was I to say? They had their their scythes to cut them with, you see? And then the the men cut the like that and then the women s they lifted the, and the next lad he stuck them so that it was a very busy time. It was a busier time for us because we had to feed the the the six of them w we put them into a big shed and they just slept there but we we gave them their dinner, they managed to make their own breakfast and their tea whatever They had bread and stuff like that but we had to make their dinner for them. So it took them days but we were very glad to have them because they were It was such a good crop and they were lying flat. Mm. So that was did. How did you get word to them at that day? Well they they just went out and and cut the round about you see even though it was damp they cut it though it was wet, I see. they they didn't wait till it was dry. But I meant how did you get word down to Blair Gowrie? Oh they just There would always be somebody would be on the road at any time looking for harvest time and my father would say to someone, tell the McGregors We called them that time, so the McGregors came up went tell told the others. So the whole camp lot came up and er they Oh but it wasn't only our farm, they did other farms by. And then of course we had the mower and then we got a binder and now I see they've er a harvester. Mm. It was a great thing the other day when I saw the combine harvester coming up the glen. But going back again to the Yes. the tinkers, did they come up with their own scythes? Yes they come up with their own scythes oh yes they all had that er and oh could fairly sharpen too. Mhm. And oh it was great to see them mm. Th they sometimes brought their own two little boys with them and they would make the the bands to cut them bands to do the sheaves, so. Did your grandmother I don't know if you had Aye I've a grandmother and everything. Aha. time to listen much to her when you were younger? Oh yes . But did did she ever talk about the the thre the thrievers No she never said that no. The the men and women that used to go with their own sickles. Yes that oh oh That was a l that was in my great grannie's time that they went there. That was the Mhm. No there was none of that near in our time. But in my great grannie's time I think they did that. Where where did they they come from? From Blair Gowrie and district that's usually where all those working people came from. Mhm. Great l vans of them used to go round the glens doing that. And did some go from the likes of Deeside or Braemar down to the the lowlands ? No I suppose they had but er I No that I knew of. That was beyond me. Mhm. That's away back . That was further back that was in what I would say my great grannie's time. Mhm. Mhm, so that's a hundred year ago and more. Mm. A hundred year before yourself? Yes. Mhm. A hundred year before myself yes. Now again say before the the great war, the first war Yes aha. what other types of folk would be coming up Glen Ayloch Oh they were just all that kind all those working kind of folks going up the glen. A right decent lot of folk they were from Blair Gowrie. There was the Stewarts and there was the er the Townsleys and Higgins, you called them and Whites that was the four lot. Ooh, hard working chaps they were too. Honest fellows they were. And just last Two year ago I met one of the older kind and oh she wasn't pleased where they used to do their put their camps. She somebody has fenced it off, she says I could see them far enough, she said, we always had that bit for our camp and it was further down the glen . Whereabout in the glen did they camp? They'd camp just beyond the Between the hotel and erm the the What we call the round house Knockshannoch Do you know where it is ? Mhm. Well there was a bit there where they always used to camp. But then when they went up when they passed it just two year ago it was fenced off. And did the Mhm. tinker folks er have any things to sell? Oh yes any amount any amount of pots and pans and laces for your boots and, what we call pirins that was cotton reels. And and thread and er then there was even great lots of things for your Even ordinary pins they had that,and anything you could near ask for they had it. Tapes and yards of lace and and er sometimes some of them would have even pieces of cloth for an apron, if you know what an apron is. For a pinny. Mhm. They were the better kind that managed that because they didn't have much money to buy them, so. And then the men folk used to give them a bit of tobacco and stuff like that, mhm. And sometimes if there was just a few of the men maybe two men in the camp, they would come and help with even fencing or or erm build up a dyke or something like that Even drain they would stay for days if they wanted draining the fields, mm it was that. Did they do any work in the woods? Er no no not no in my time, no. Mm. How about they old style pack man that used to come ? Oh er he used to come round with that, aha. He used to go He came up when he would go from Blair and he would come up our glen and he would maybe walk over the hill to Braemar, or over the hill to Clover I suppose. He had a big pack on his back, I don't know where he stayed He he stayed in everybody's farmsteadings or some place like that. There was a place he lived further down the glen and the old farmer said I've no objections to you going in there but give me your pipe. He would never let him smoke . You see, he would be afraid for him setting fire to the steading I suppose. And did the pack man have a name or? I think the only body that I knew was er an old man McDonald, you called him, was a pack man at that time. he was a right old chap him. I think he was an Aberdonian really the way he spoke anyway but he'd been brought up in Blair Gowrie. Mhm. So that was them. And what was this pack like? Oh they had it well would just be anything it was just a long roll th great big roll, just like It just sort of wrapped in a grey eh a big waterproof kind of co covering, and he would have er shirts and and er things like that for men to buy, or er and sometimes er overall or a pinny, as we said, for mother and the like of that. Oh it was a great thing when the old pack man came to undo his rolls of things, mhm so And did he bring the news? Oh yes anything that happened down the glen or way was heard that from the pack man so it was bound to be true. Mhm. So folk looked forward to the pack man? Oh I couldn't say for that. You know they looked forward to him coming round ? Aye aha. For a crack maybe? No oh he would no he had always his his idea coming for to sell something. Ah I see . Aha. And then that's another thing he always got something to eat which was a great help of those days, and especially if there was If mother was baking or anything like that he always got a scone or something,mhm. And er Oh and if he If the time of the the er tinkers that they came round, if they came round about the time of the the pig killing they would look for the piece of bacon. They hoped to get a bit of that if you know, aha. Can you tell me about how the folks long ago used to do the the pig? How they killed the pig? Oh it was a great day the day the pig was killed. You had to get up in the morning and see that there was plenty of a great pot of of hot water, boiling water. And then er the man that went round with all these knives and things he went down to the to the soo cray if you ken what that is. And he got the pi and then held the pig and I never was at the actual killing but I know they did er Then they cut its throat you see? And then they put into what we called the the skeel great big round thing like a What we call it? Er I suppose a tank, now, a round one, big thing. And then they scraped and scraped and cleaned it and then they hung it up by the legs up, pulled it up to the steading, up to the ceiling. And then er did the rest of the scraping and then they er opened it up and took out all the intestines and er the livers and the lights and tongue and things like that. And it hu go And it was there and it was left all night, and next day erm the man came back again and he cut it down the back with a big saw, and divided it up and then it was taken to the house where it was er up and then salted in a big barrel. And then, before that, if you if you was to make the mealy puddings the it that always had to be cut into bits and emptied and washed well in cold water, and with salt and that, and that was They would done that for three days before they were then filled up to make the mealy puddings. But then next day after the s pig was killed up it was The the head had to be cut into sections and well cleaned and left overnight in the salt water and To clean any bloody parts on it. And then it was boiled and boiled that it was er tender and that and then it was taken out and cut into bits and this is what a potted head And then it was That was done and then er Where the water what was boiled there was often fat but that was all skimmed off, and er next day there was as much water in the And er meat from the head was put in and pepper and salt and that, and then it was boiled again and then put into little dishes and that was your potted head. So that er it was good food for for weeks on end. We had a fine dairy that we er er of stone shelves and and that kept cool when everything And it was good for weeks. So that was our potted head, and then the the bacon itself was kept in er salt water Mm. And er it was salted and then For a few days, and then it was put in what we called brine,s more salt, and covered and it would be there for six weeks. And then it was taken out and er dripped and cleaned, and then it was hung up in the kitchen to dry, and that was how the hams were done. Mm. And did you ever hear of saltpetre being used? Yes sometimes, we didn't use saltpetre, but a lot of people used saltpetre in it too. I don't know why they did it. Whether it was give it a better flavour or no, I don't know but we never used the saltpetre . Where did most folk hang the the pig? They ha the er When it was cut up like that, in the house there was er Cleaks There was cleaks there was er cleaks in er in Most of the kitchens had rafters, a lot of them, and there was cleaks just specially for the hanging the pigs and the er the hams of the And then you left them until they were fairly dry, and then you had to cover them well and truly with a for all summer, because the fly would go for them, if the weren't properly salted and dry. And that would have been an awful loss if you had lost a a a a ham. Cos if the the blue fly went there and and maggots got into it, it would just be a job. Mhm. Can you tell me about the the older type of houses up the glen, what they were like inside? Oh I don't know. They were just o ordinary little places, all the places that ever I was in,they were Yes the the kitchen and that had we'd rafters and then there was er the fireplace a just er generally just like, were two stone and there's ribs across. They were like that. And er any bigger kitchen, there was nearly always er what we called a box bed in it, and er it was er That was where the mother and the father lived. Now Elizabeth, up Glen Ayloch what types of area where most of the houses built on? Was on the heights or was it in the hollows? No they was on Well just the side of the hills, the Most of the houses were that. There was very few there was very few houses built high up. In fact Well there was Craighead was it was built up high on the hill side. And another one was Bollyeld it was high up, it was far above the road. And what were the the parts of the glen called? Well the place where I was lived up we were called er er the we were Upper Islay, over passed the fence, aha. I think my granny used to speak about the Clachan at Dalvaine, when there was er about five or six houses there and the that was the That was Upper Islay. And the next lot was Foulder and then the next part of the glen was Claypots And then there was the Broulands and then there was the Curtain of Glen Ayloch Er that was where the the market used to be held at the Curtain of Glen Ayloch where the hotel is now. There's very few who'll speak about the Curtain I think now cos they speak about the hotel, but we say the Curtain of Glen Ayloch And then and then further down was Dyke Ends and that was our lower end of the glen, so that was there. Mm. In your granny's day were there quite a few folk? Oh a great lot of folk, even round about m our place there was forty people. At our wee place, er you see my grandfather had the meal mill, Mhm. er and er so he employed somebody there and then was the little farm at the time. And across the way there was another farm, a little one, it was called Auchenree Was Auchenree and there was Dalvaine, and then there was er er Dalvaine cottage, and then there was another house called The Hillock. And another one at the watersi at the burnside was called the Burnside Dalvaine. Mhm. And the people that lived there there was were there for the season, but they would help with the harvest, so they go dyking and fencing and er r r and at the time of the shooting season they would be employed with poling man and dog man or something like that of long ago. And and who were these people? Er the who came to the be the shooting tenants? Oh we had it was the Airleys we had at that time. Mm. And then they let their big house er at Auchen to Sir Anthony Edens was even there and erm a lot of those kind of people were there. And who else was there? Er well a lot of the people was there. And then there was er Lambert and Gwyn and Butler the tobacco people. They were another set of people that had it. Mm but who were the the people that used to help out with the dyking and? No the men that was work oh the men that was just there was oh Those names was the one who came for the shooting season . Mhm. But you know you mentioned that people used to help out with the dogs . Oh they were helping there. Oh there was a lot of them, there was MacGregors and Ramseys and and er McNichols and MacKintoshes and goodness knows any amount of them. They were glen folks? They were glen folk yes. And Thompson he was a grand lad he could do everything near. Mm. He he was he could plant trees, he could er er you know, he did that and he could see to planting and er er and looking after woods and things of that kind. You mentioned there the Clachan of Dalvaine. Yes that was where Islay is, aha. That was what my granny used to speak about that place Mhm. we all the little folks round about it. And are many of these houses now in ruins? They're all in ruins, yes. And there's a bit a very a very Aye, one that my father used to tell us about it. Long ago the the abbots of Cupar Angus, they came up to spend the summer m summer months at Dalvaine. And down by the water side it there's a a sort of a ruin just you can see it and he said that was where they stayed, a little monastery there. And the abbots used to come up and then they would stay and have their meal in Kilray down at what they called the aiden or the tavern, and then they would walk over the hill of Kilray right up until they came to Dalvaine. And I suppose it was some of my great grandfathers or some of them, had the looking after of them. They had to see that they were provided with milk and butter and eggs and er venison and the rabbits and things for their food. This old this old lad he was called James Graham of long ago. Well well. Mhm. So that's many hundred years ago now but it is er er it's not long ago since I read that in w in museum in Ayloch Ah. But er But I've known that story about the er about them coming up that way and they stayed at the the burnside at Dalvaine. And h you heard it from your father? Yes, aha, my granny too, spoke about that this lad he'd to look after them. So so not only did you read it you heard about it. Mhm. I heard about it and then I read about it mhm. I see. Mhm. And you mentioned the ruin where they used to live, did that have a a name? Where the abbots lived? The abbot's li the abbots lived at the burnside at Dalvaine, that's what they call this little place. In fact you could see it near yet the where it is round about Dalvaine. It's just I I It's just opposite the house, the farm house at Dalvaine, on the right hand side there's the there's the old lime kiln, it's there. And then there's traces of er you know you could see where the old foundations and things were. That's so that's there the abbots used to stay. Mhm. Lots of long ago. Mhm. Did your grandparents mention any other parts of the glen that used to used away back in time that are just ruins now? No I don't know anything no. The only thing is another old place that in was Auchentipple There used to be a chapel there and it was called the Hunt Chapel, but it's just a hunt now. And there used to be a a little croft croft there of long ago, and it's er it's all planted now with trees all round about it but I suppose they could still see where they used to be A black smith had stayed there. I don't know why they'd ever had a little place yonder but there was crofts near everywhere, Mm. long ago. Mhm. And then there Further up the glen from me, from our, house there's a place called Dalnasnecht It's a little place in the beside the water and beyond it there's a great piece of ground on the hill and it was called er Argyll's Reed where Argy Where all Where Argyll's men stayed when they came to burn down the bonny house early,Forter Castle. And where about was that now? That's er you know h have you be Did you ever notice the old building at Forter? Aha. Well that was where the the Where Argyll and them came and they burnt it down. And his people were er billeted roundabout, where they were lifting everything they could I suppose to eat and kill or something. But this piece of ground was always called er Argyll's Reed. And that's where? Argyll's men stayed the the Mhm. the soldiers. Whereabout is the actual? That was opposite er further up the glen from me from Mm. Dalvaine. It's up and it's past It's it's Presnareburn in the Skrandert I it was to be a fort of long ago too, Fort Mm. , and then across from that is er there's Dalnasnecht Mhm. And the and it's up there. Very good. That's ancient history anyway. And were there many er local parts named by the people of the glen? Hills and rocks and all sorts of things ? There's a place just just across the water from us and it's called Dalinnoch That's a nice little flat bit and er And Dalnasnecht was another one,and er They seem to have a Gaelic sound to some of these names . Mhm, there's there all Gaelic, There with Gaelic was spoken in the Glen Ayloch many years, er even though the lower end of the glen didn't. Our folk up at Dalvaine and that, they spoke the Gaelic long after it was spoken down the glen. Is that so? Mhm. My granny could speak it well and my great granny she could speak it and read it. I don't remember her of course but I've heard my father and them speaking about it. And could your mother? Oh she never spoke it, er she was a lower glen but she didn't speak it. And didn't like it either. Mhm. So roughly when do you think the Gaelic faded from the upper part Yes oh of the glen? yes. It er Oh it faded er none of us Oh no Just a word here and there, some of them spoke it. Wait till I see now. When I was at school which'll be eighty year, ago the people there er spoke it. The the He was the old teacher and he and his sister never spoke anything else but the Gaelic. You called them MacGregor and er he was good. This MacGregor he was to be a minister, and he was a well educated man but unfortunately he'd made a mistake when he preached his sermon so he gave it up. Why I don't know, but his sister and him never spoke anything else but the Gaelic. Mhm. I mind of them when I was little, fine we used to go in and see them. So that was them, so that's eighty years ago. Mhm. And the upper part of the glen had Gaelic far longer than down the bottom ? Oh yes an Yes. From our lot, yes up that way. But then it just all died out and died out and there was nobody then. My father had quite a lot of Gaelic words, quite a lot. So that was that. But going back to some of these places you mentioned, were there any rocks that were given a name or stones? Up w oh I suppose there would be, further up the glen aha. You never heard any stories about certain stones having a No a name no no. Oh there was the stone I ken, the big stones in the road up the glen er what we called the Gled stane Er it's a great huge stone and it has a right story about it. It Aha. it was the th the old man that lived in er u up in Mount Blair, he didn't like the folk going to the kirk and he lifted this big stone and fell down. So that's one of the stones is called the Glen Ayloch the Gl the Gled Stane mhm. Again going back into your grandmother Time, aha . and grandfather's time,did they ever mention to you whether folk use to cross from Glen Ayloch into other glens? Oh yes there was a there was an er a er a right of way between Glen Ayloch and Glen Shee, and especially out of what we called our hill. I've walked it myself. You walked out Glen Bainey into Loch Sheichernich and then down into Glen Shee, and er go out that way. That was called Glen Bainey And there is a stone out there a great huge stone oh that was called Clachnagowan I've seen that many And if you went there you If you got the length of Clachnagowan you looked right out the hill right out to Glen Bainey And who would be using these tracks? Oh there was tracks There's is that and the fact er they can go out that way with their Land Rovers and things Mm. now. But you know in in those days . Oh no, they'd just a pony. Mhm. A pony or their feet,I walked it myself, but er right out that way. What a pony to carry stuff? Er yes a lot of folk went out that way with their ponies er in fact that's how they used to take the men when any Glen Shee person died in Glen Ayloch they took them out that way to the kirk here in Glen Shee kirk. Mhm. Oh the dead er out that way. I think about the last ones that was taken there was an old man Ramsey that died at er Dalvaine, and they carried him out that way. And when my father spoke about He got a holi they got a holiday from the school, that day, because the teacher came to see this old body going out the glen that's body and they walked out, so it'd be two miles out and then maybe another three miles up the er Glen Shee kirk here, so they had a good bit to carry him. That was a Glen Shee man? Yes and it was Ramsey you called him. He was Mhm. And he was an old tailor. Mhm. And that was that was how he wanted back to Glen Ayloch back to Glen Shee. There was other Ramseys too, that lived further up the glen but they were taken round on the road way . They weren't cald cra carried over the hill. So that was them. Was there ever a custom mentioned to you whereby they used to put a cairn down? Oh there's a er er There is that there's a cairn there was A man lost on the hill of Kilray and there was a cairn put there. I don't know whee it is now but it was there. Yes the and there's a place out Glen Bainey er at the march between Glen Shee and Glen Ayloch and there's a a fence er a gate or a steps at just the Glen Shee folk waited at that side to meet the Glen Ayloch folk to take the coffin over the dyke. Is that so? They would they would never allow our men to go over but they would be there to take it. That's most interesting. And yes it was just an idea that they had, they were there waiting to take the coffin over the dyke. They just wouldn't cross over? No, our men wouldn't cross over with it but the Glen Shee folk would be there to receive it Mhm. And they would follow on behind but they wouldn't carry it. Oh just funny old stories. Now Elizabeth, who was this mannie you were mentioning ? Oh the the the blind fiddler. Oh he was a great lad what a great big strong looking fine looking man he was when we knew him. And er he go was p partly blind, wasn't just quite but he And he'd two dogs with him. And er he went round and I don't know I never heard him playing the fiddle, but they said he was very good at fiddling, but he was a grand one for old stories,, and er he was just doing farms here and there so Then eventually he turned so old he'd only one dog and then er he died down at the D At a place called the Doonie And this man D Duncan, he had just an er one of the er I think one of the tramps from Blair Gowrie was working to him and he came up and told my father and my father went down to see about him, you see him being in the parish council. And that was the poor old man he was just just about away so they sent for the ambulance and took him down to Forfar to They used to call that the poor house, I don't know what they call it now but it was the poor house in those Mm. days and er but And so the father saw that he was safely there and the other Then when he came back he went into the house and said to Duncan er Was you speaking to the old John old John MacGregor and f He said I was that and he said I'll let you see what my man got, and this was the little bag of gold. You know he was that tramp must have been an honest man because father said there was quite a little of sovereigns in that, and so I suppose it had been given to the parish and had seen that the man was properly buried, and then they discovered that he was an Aberdonian. But I don't know He was educated and all. Cos he he When he liked he could speak very well but how he'd taken to the road I don't know, but he was well known er er as the blind fiddler. When did er the blind fiddler pass away? Oh that would have been I think it was between the wars, I think between the time of the world wars. Was after world war one anyway I mind of that, so say it might have been in the twenties he might have done I wouldn't say proper Mm. but the might been that. And he used to come for years? Oh he came r he came round er e everybody and everybody was kind to him, just the sake of hearing him speaking. Mhm. But his dogs didn't like men folk,I don't know why if they d the men folk went near the dogs would growl. But if any of the women folks which I've gone out with a a bowl of soup to him many a time. And er you could even stroke his dogs but er the er I don't know how it is, he said, but they never say no to you. Aha. Where did he used to stay when he was up the glen? Where'd he used to stay? Oh anybody would take him in. He used to stay a lot with the Broughs at Balnamenoch that was further down the glen. And he he stowed with er stayed with the Ogilveys at Fortar He stayed er at night, so that was Oh and he used to walk all over the countryside. Everybody knew the blind fiddler and he had always his kilt on and But after a while, I don't know, the next time he came round I mind he had trousers on and we didn't think he was the same man at all,no. Was it just in the summer he came around ? Yes in summer times, aha. So where do you think he went for the winter? Oh it'll likely have been about Blair Gowrie or Pitlochry or some place, just anybody who would have taken him in. but he he would never stay except, you know, it always had to be in respectable kind of a barn or something he would live in, least And in fact instead of that he would ra if it was good days he would rather lie at the dyke side. Mm. You know he was an outdoor man. so, How about the old mole catcher? Did you have one of these men? Oh we did that, a great old lad he was . Mhm. And I mean a great thrill he was to us, he cried come here and see this and here was among all his little moles, he had a white one a pure white mole. I mind fine we all crowded round to see the old mole catcher with the white mole, mhm. And I don't know it was truth he said I'm just collecting all the mole skins for somebody's mo For a coat, but that was just a story I think. I don't know, but anyway he got the white mole, so he was delighted to see it. He didn't live in the glen? Oh no no he came from Where did he come from now? Aylot h I think he did Mm. We did have a mole catcher in the glen, but he wasn't the regular, he just occasionally. It was a man Robertson, I think was his name, but he was the mole catcher. Aha. And he But he wasn't so regular? No and we had another man I and I cried to him, What do you call him again? I cried Will, I said there's a mole in this kitchen m mole this there's a mole of this garden Will. And he said do you think sh she would need a worm, meaning me. And he cried do you think she would need a worm and he held up a worm, but he came and put this poisoned worm in the mole, you know that's what they did, they had er mole er worms that had doped with poison, you see and then they dropped them in the hole and that was the end of the mole. Was there a custom in the glen for folk to go ceilidhing to one another 's houses? Oh that was that was always done at new year time, or at least It wasn't so much new year day as we called Yule Day. That was the fifth of January, that was old Yule was the fifth of January was January was y Old Christmas,er Chris er Yule Day was old Christmas day. And oh Yeah, we went round from one house to the other and you A whole week of it it was more or less. You know, you went there and there was fiddling and singing and dancing and eating and drinking and this to Party time all the way. Throughout the rest of the year did folk visit one another? Oh yes quite a lot. Quite a lot of coming and going. Yes and then we've fiddles or melodions they all m met at each others houses and had great nights. And were there certain men or women that were known for their stories? Oh yes and they were great extravagant stories some of them too . Aye. Th What types of stories might be told? Oh they would just tell you some extraordinary story they'd seen They'd heard Seen a ghost or heard a ghost or a something. Mm when he This man told a great load of stories and in fact it began it was really thought true. He always swore that when he was going over the Baloch that's the the road between Glen Ayloch and Kil and Glen Shee, he said i if you were at certain hour of the night he said as sure as anything there was a man on horseback pass you with this horse. He thought he heard the clatter of it in the roads,oh it it had awful stuff of that kind. But we liked to hear his stories. Mhm. I'm sure you could add a lot of your Glen Uig stories to mine . No I didn't know much about the glen at all But no nothing exciting enough to speak about. You've more stories than I do. About Well I was brought up on the story. the the two brothers that went away and they were driving a car and one said to the other, watch what you're doing and the other said to him, but I'm not driving so. That was too too that, That's the kind of stories there is about her neighbours. Aha. Aha. That was er Yes, two and they were called Ogilvey, and one was A e Alec and the other one was Will. And it was Alec that was driving and Will Will, he said mind where your about Alec, you'll er you'll soon be in a ditch but good's sake he said it's not me So they were both about the other on be the pony, that took him to the wrong house. Oh aye that's another lad he was on his road home the pony used to After a a drink in Kilray In Kerry the the ponies nearly took the men home. But this lad make a mistake and he come down to the my sisters house,and my sister and her husband took him in and he'd fallen and cut his brow,and after he was kind of sobered up he turned down and he said Not a story about this now James. And that was to the horse? No it was to my brother in law . What did he s What did he say to the to the pony? Ay No no. He that for he said he was that thankful that they had looked after him and that's how she leaned down and said not a story about this now James. Very good. So. Were there any stories about misers? No I don't think so. er I think there was something like that. You know in older times about folk having stored up lots and lots lots of money? Aye well this man that I ke know he had quite a lot of money and he just gave a six pence to the kirk, and he had always plenty of money when he died. But to make up for what he didn't pay he left a hundred pound to the kirk. Is that so? Aye that's so, that's a s a long ago story. Mhm. Aye. You you mentioned there about the old market. We'd a curtain market. Yes. Aha. That was long afore my day but th they used to always come to curtain market, aha. It was a great day that day they came from Lintrethen and Kilray and the Blackwater and all met there with their and their or whatever they were to sell,a horse the day of the curtain market. Mhm. First heard father speak about that. There were a lot of horses? Yes er they days oh yes everybody had that. And I've I've known I've heard of the Glen Islan m men would walk out the hill to the market of Braemar, the Castletown market they used to say, likely going there for sheep or something, I don't know that was beyond my stories. And what way would they take? They would go out Glen Baily and past loch and then right over into Glen Shee and that up over the Devils Elbow then. Mhm. It was a goodly walk. That walk that I've one That I've walked it twice, gone right out Glen Baily and right into Glen Shee and down Blackwater, down to the and come along and round in, thirteen mile Maybe twelve or thirteen miles. And did any of the the Glen Shee folk come to Glen Ayloch Oh yes, oh there was there was no dance unless the Glen Shee folk come along to it . Oh yes there was great coming and goings between Glen Shee and Glen Ayloch yes. A lot of them. They came to help each other especially at the clipping time, the time of the clipping the sheep. Whether they came to claim their own or not I'm not very sure sometimes . Mhm. Tell me about some of the old dances. The dances, oh they were just great fun the dances. All met in the we met the school. It was the nearest to us and the next one was the Glen Ayloch school. But oh we we'd we'd a lot of good fiddlers in those days and a girl at the piano. And then when things got a wee bitty better we used to have the Camerons up from Kilray from Kerry to dance to the Play at the dances. And of course the night of the Gathering Ball it was just packed tight with people, hardly the school would hardly hold them all. And then they put up a big tent in the Beside the school where you went out for your supper er it was that. S s And how many folk might be at the the dances? Oh there was more than a hundred near two hundred folks would turn up. A lot of them that came to the g to the gathering To the sports they would stay over just for the sake of getting the dance. And where was that? That was the tw always the first The second Friday of August. It was the Friday after the twelfth was always the gatheri Glen Ayloch gathering and is yet, and is going on for a hundred and s something year a hundred and What did I we say a hundred and twenty years since it was started I think. And what about for recreation what did the people do er You know away back before before the great war? Oh For recreation, oh they made just er as I said, They did er throwing the pudding stone and they di the And the caber and if the p hammer, and er a lot of them used to play quoits. They played that and then in the in the and in the evening there was a great lot of er dambor playing if you ken what that is? Draughts you know, but always father spoke about his And er they did that and then there was oh great ones for meeting in their own houses to to fiddle. They were great fiddlers of long ago it's not so long ago that I mind there was five fiddlers in our kitchen in Dalvaine, just each coming with a just to have a night at the fiddle. Who who were the the great fiddlers? Oh there was the Stewarts especially. The Stewarts were always and Charlie Stewarts the last of the f Stewarts but they were all great fiddlers there was the Stewarts and er my brother was a fiddler my father, and then Duncans and their pipes. There was a ma two boys played the pipes and er and the Thompsons were pipers, the Did father and the son were pipers too. Did the fiddlers have any local tunes? Oh I couldn't say for that. You cannae mind some of the names ? No no no no. There's only one tune that I know and that was made in honour of my brother. He was about thirty years as as erm secretary of the Glen Ayloch gathering and somebody made up a pipe tune and called it Graham's Tune. So that's the only one I know . Mhm. That's just recently, mhm. Oh there was Duncans and there was Robbies and there was Stewarts and MacKintoshes and Thompsons, all musical people, of long ago. Unfortunately I wasn't blessed with that. The only thing I was blessed with was the music in my feet. Aha. For I was very keen on dancing. And what were the the dances? Oh we danced all the dances you can think of long ago like Browns Reel, the Lancers and the Quadrilles and Jackie Tar, Rory More, Pluars Edinburgh and er Oh I think we've near named them all up and down. Did you ever dance the Patronella? Patronella was one of the favourite ones, aha. You had to do that. And Patronella and Rory More and er Pluars Edinburgh and Jackie Tar and er Quadrilles, Lancers and Browns Reel especially. Eightsome Reel,and all the And then a waltz and one of those kind of things. Mhm. And a One Step, was another one. Before I got my feet off I mean the doctor once said to me, What did you do when you were young? I said, I worked hard all day and I danced all night. You Well he said, Well it's done you a lot of good now then because your knees are still good. They're still right enough. I I saw Mrs granddad that she's got a new bike and I said I wish I could go that. Now going back to the maybe Mhm. what your grandparents mentioned to you , Mhm. did you ever hear anything about this business of them distilling whisky? Oh yes they we were great Our folk were great distillers of whisky. My people, which is not a nice thing to say but it's true. It was an extra for them to do. And my grandfather and my great grandfather, they were millers you see? So they had every ch opportunity of d distilling the whisky. I don't know how it was done but they ha they apparently they did plenty of it,. My father, unfortunately, he came on one of their little barrels out the glen but it was empty. Aye. Mhm. It had been they had put it out to the what they call peat moss. And put it in er er in the moss, you see it would mistur it would mature. I think it would make about two gallons of whisky, I think he said, the little barrel. And he thought he'd landed but it was empty, it had likely somebody had got it before him. That wasn't what you called the a pig? No. No. No. Was there a name for these whisky barrels? N don't know that I know just the whisky barrels they were, a little I believe there was maybe a name for them. There used to be a great line of business up the folder part. Yes, up that yes. Did you ever hear them talk about them smuggling the whisky through the glen? Yes, they did that so my That old great grandfathers of mine they went fr from here to Arbroath with theirs over the hill. Is that so? Three or four of them, aha, with their ponies they would leave in the night and go over the hill. I've a bigger story about the end of our stories. A er and er it was kept secret for many a year, but er the just when they were, there the excise men came upon them,and this old ancestor of mine he was a big lad, over six foot, and he was quite sure that the man wasn't going to take his whisky. So he fought with him and and took his stick from him and gave him a whack on the head and he dropped, and the story goes he says we'll go home now lads. So they made home but whether he killed the man or not we never knew. Mhm. So that was the last And I don't think if he went back after that I think it had kind of frightened him, least so my father used to tell the story. He took the gaugers stick? Aye, and we have it yet, it's in the family. What's it like? Oh it's just a beautiful thing, really. It's er it's like made of blackthorn and the upper part of it's all little knobbly and a head like a a head turned in like a h like the head of an a of a bird. And the door pit is about eighteen inches of steel and that was for them to puncture the thing, to puncture their whisky, little barrels you see. But old Sandy we was sure he wouldn't puncture his. Aye, well that's fascinating. Aye. And oh it was fascinating, yes. And that was hid for many many years it had generations. And I came across it in my young day when I had no business, but I begged it out them. That was why it was ever brought to light so it's gone down to the next generation. Did you ever hear the way they took the whisky to Arbroath? They took it on their on their They went with their ponies in their little barrels you see, and they went on horseback over it. Wh what way did they go? Oh they we I do Just Well I don't know they w just idea over the hills by the map, I don't know how they went. But did they have their routes? Oh they had their routes yes. And they had to have their secret routes, you see the excise men would be looking for them. It'd be some like times Oh I think I've told you about all that I can about the glen. Oh no I'm not going to ask you so much about the glen, more No. about the the house this time. the the fireplace, can you Oh th the fireplace . ah can you mind some of the old names for some of the things? Oh what all things well yes there is the You know there was the the the poker, there's the poker and the and this and the Tongs. and the tongs and the and the shovel And the . Aha, yes. And the . And then there was the the sway And the and the the and the chain and and the and the cleak for the kettle. Were were there nooks on either side of the fireside? Wee nooks that you could put things in? Oh aye th Yes the older kind has, yes. In fact th the older kind I that I mind of there was places you could even sit in the nook. Aha. There was a se er a little seat situated in the great long ribs there was across, and then there was the side that. Mhm, now what was that called? That was the n the nook. Aha. You sat in er the s the side. And you could easy sit in there and in this big place that I speak about there was two sways Mhm. in each side like that. Did you hear the word jam stones ever? That was well that was the jam stones we sat on. Was it? Aha. Some people call it the nook but you just sat on the jam stones. Yes on the front. And what was an inglenook? An inglenook, Oh I think it had been a place a sort of built off the fireplace. I think. I ne I don't know I never was in a place where there was one like that. You you mentioned the er sow's cray Aye the sow's cray aye the pigsty . That's Or the pig's hutch . Aye , that's right, the pigsty. Aye. Sow cray we called it C R A Y a cray . Wh what did you call an outside toilet? Oh that was just always called the little house. Mhm. You never heard offie? Oh I think we did, yes. I think we did speak about that, the offie but mostly it was just the little house, outside Mhm. How about carseckies ? Oh aye I've heard that Er and yes. the grazer jacket. That's right, aha. The old men wore that. That's right . Just like a blazer. Mhm. But a carseckie it was made like Aha. you know like you get jeans nowadays. Er the very same aye . That was a carseckie A carseckie My grandfather wore that. That's right . That's where I heard the word. Mhm. Carseckie Any of these old words now that you can think of? Oh I could think about an awful lot of them I think . Mhm. Mhm. I may use them on Mrs occasionally. a lot of them. Say for the you know the the implements on the farm that they have Aha. Oh yes there was Oh yeah, there was all the implements for that there was the the grubber and there was the plough and there was the harress and there was the Scarefair and er wh wh whatever you call the the the driller, there there was the driller for the for this turnips or the neeps. What did you call the the knife for shortening the neeps? neeps was the . Tabner The tabner And that went in very quick on the end for you shoved it into the neep Aha. picked Mhm. it up. The tabner you put in that the tabner the thing went in the neeps and then you cut that Mm. way you see, the tabner and the yeuk Mhm. What was the yeuk The yeuk was the Well just as you would say er Just a hook but we called it the yeuk Y E U K. And that was used for? The yeuk aha, the tabner was thing like this and you dig that into the neep, like this and then the you did that to take the shyes off I see. Ah er the yeuk . So your tabner was used for? Yes, for lifting the neep up. It was thing with two prongs and you tap it in like that and it lifted the neeps, then you did that with the yeuk Mhm. It was a hard days work when you went up and down a drill like that, lift the neep and yeuk lift the neep and yeuk and hope you get I never ever did it myself like. Aye you did that,ye d That was why you did And you did your neeps. They had to be done like that and yeuk and then throw the neep in there and then the next day so that when the Laying the neeps is that what they called it? Laying the neeps ? Er no when you laid the neeps that was yeuking the neeps. I see. H yeuking the neeps. Mhm. They did that with the neeps so that when the man came along with a cart they could throw them, you see. You had to lay them this way and that way What did you call thinning the neeps? Thinning the neeps was clatting the neeps, you see? Jim do that ? Yes aha. Clatting the neeps? Clatting the neeps and in Aberdeen they called them yowing And y We had your clatt as the yow they called it the hoe, the yow They cleared the Did that to the drill. Cleared down like that, you know, this side and that, and then you shoved a And you did a f did a d Leave one. It was an art er if you look Aye, all the time you cleared it down with this, you see? On either side, and then you just looked and shoved that out and then on you went. Mhm. Was that thinning? That was thinning the neeps . Thinning the neeps. Aye. Yowing them. Mhm. Mhm. How about the hay , was it called anything? The hay rick well it was That was what I speak about a a a cole Tramp cole where the hay r Hay was the tramp cole. We had the little coles that when you just When the hay wasn't just Was just as dry as you'd want it, they put it into hay coles Little coles just little things about four feet that And then you'd put them into the tramp coles and that was where you tramped it. That's where they were well named tramp coles I've tramped them for my er , round and round on them. Were the were the coles er would you talk about them being theekit Aye that was theekit aha. Had to cut the rashes or the sprots and theekit them that way. Is that what you did up at the top of the Yes. Aha. You theekit them that way. Theekit? Mhm. And that's then when you put on the dollies on the top That was the time when you did the fancy things on the top, aye . Aye. Now did everyone in the glen theek the Oh everybody Theekit their the coles the same way though? Oh I think so. Mostly all the same after the same style, mhm. They didn't theek the hay stacks though, well Yes when er There was the tramp coles and then they broke them into what they called the big hay stacks but they were great big round great big Mm. big round things and And then what was a stray soo A stray soo was a kind of er like a house. Aye and it had a roof on it like a house shaped like a house . Er just like aye yes, that was a hay soo aha. Stray soo. What type of roof was that then? Well it was er Well just like a hut. it was f just like a house, with like a roof. What what was it made with? It was made with the s with er bales of hay. Is that so? Mhm. You could make a hay soo now with a with square bales of hay. They cannae do it now with the rolled bays Great rolled bales of hay they have now. And going on to the corn, the er time when it was ripe, was there a test that the farmer would use to see that his corn was ripe for cutting ? Oh he he knew that fine. Went round and put his hand in to see if it was dry. In fact if it was dry down to the band they would near take it in by that time, you with the bands round the middle? Aha. But oh they could rustle it and they'd they just knew by the just did this with it you know they would know . Didn't they taste it? Oh near about it aha. Didn't you They just knew, Mm. mhm. Now wasn't it supposed to be unlucky to be the last in cutting your corn? Oh there were never no word about that, no. Now can you t tell me about how it was bound into sheaves? Oh fine, it was just all You got this It was an art in making the band. You got the band and you put them like that, and you twisted it round, did that and then it was a long band you see . Now what was the band made of ? It was the corn, you see? You just took two big handfuls of corn. And they were awful thick. And you did that with them and then laid it down, you see, and then you gathered your sheaf and put it on that and turned it round and gave it a twist like that and then And that was how it was done. Tossed Now the sheaf to the side. Was that done on the the same day as the corn was cut? Oh just as soon as it was cut. Mhm. Just as soon as it was cut you In fact you'd to go er ev everybody, in that day, you'd maybe have maybe thirty yards and you'd all those l sheaves y that was your bit. And you did that and then you had to wait until the the machine came round again and that was you again, you'd a whole day at that. Who usually did the the band? Well you could do your own bands, but you were awful lucky if there was only the bairns about, and they did your band for you. If you made it and laid down them the the man that was doing it, he'd only to lift that and give it a twine and on to the next. Mhm. And what size was your sheaf? Oh just a good arm full, a good arm full of a sheaf you would have to put down. The man that was on the mower, they had an eye to that they would just wait until it was off the the Where it was cut you see? He sat on the cutting machine and and then as it come on to the Ah but what do you call the long thing? E he just pushed it off with a long thing like that and and on they went and did it. Mhm. See? Well what does a binder do then? Oh the binder did that itself. Aye wa the binder twines string ? The binder Yes the binder could do that itself And then through off the sheaves Yes. tied up with this string aye. You see Mhm. Now the binder was a great help you see it was on a a a Had the cutting and then it went on to the platform and the it went up Aha. and then it came down and then er All tied up. the Well the the cutter slid down the cutter came out and did that with it . Mhm. Mhm. The binder twine was in this thing you see and it went Mm. over and then it tied it and then it was cu, then it fell down. And then you wouldn't have to go round the fields doing the sheaves? Oh no no. Aye if it Well sometimes if the binder wasn't cutting it Aye. properly you've to go down round and see about it. Mhm. Now you know at the top of the rick? Aha. Were the sheaves bent over? Yes. Can you tell me about that? Oh but er they were they were built round and round and as you come up what they called the eaves of the sheaf the This is just the wee ones? So. and yes The wee wee stooks? Er the stooks was Aha. Aye that was it. It's more the stooks I'm meaning, you know with the Oh yes you had er the the stooks you had I think ten in a stook You had five five sheaves at each side you put them like that, five you Mm. see and that was your stook. That was like ten sheaves. And was there one came over from the top? No, no no , No no. no no. Just just a And you'd to set them right We had to set them that they've stayed like that. Now how did you do that? Well you just got into the way you lifted them and you just look my elbows are. Mhm. You just lifted them you and you just set them like that. Mm. Was that to let the wind blow through to Yes. dry them or something? And then you just got another pair and you put another pair like that until you had five. Mhm. That was like tying stooks. Ten sheaves in a stook. How long would you leave your stooks in the field? Oh just until they were dry maybe if it was a grand time of wind, maybe say three days. And if it wasn't, My goodness it was a job when it come wet weather and it maybe be lying flat and it all had to be set up, and we had stooks for days. You didn't weight them in any way? No. No no No. that's more the bigger stacks. Aye aha . But What I was going to ask was, before they were made into a stack, were your stooks made into larger stooks? No, no no, the stooks were just stooks all the time? And then made into a stack? Yes and then they've were forked up in the carts, what the bogeys are nowadays, and then they would have made stacks and stack yet. But with they the hay coles that was? Oh the hay coles were different, they were different altogether altogether. Tell me about that again cos that was interesting. Well when the hay was dry,th it was raked up it was all er When it was cut it was lying in what we called swathes, you see? And then maybe after it'd been cut for two days, you were sent out to turn the swathes, up all you went along and you turned them and turned them. And maybe next day you would have to turn them again t to dry. And then they were raked into Well we just er If they were dry they were raked into big swathes, to be near where you could build the tramp coles But if they weren't you would put them into little coles and the and then they were the little coles was put up t t together to make a bigger one. And how did they they do that? Well they just er they just forked them they they brought up the side what I said the boss, you see. I don't know what you call the boss to be right drag point for Mhm. Any way that was it and you st and you f forked them all round and you after it was er up you was put up to do the tramping round and round and you Every forkful you took it and saw that it was laid down and tramped it round like this, round and round and round and then the next one, till it was up. Now, why did you tramp them? Well to keep it firm. Because Mhm. if you didn't the wind would soon blow them down. Sometimes it blew them down anyway . But if they was good hay and that and you tramped them down they stayed for ages. Did they not Did you not tie rope over them or something? Mhm. And a brick on the end of it. Sometimes a bit stone, aye . seen you do that. Mhm. And did you theek our tramp cole? Yes. And then they would er they would The tramp coles then you would er put this rope up over that side, and then you'd put one over that side, you see, and that was that would be safe for a long time. And after the harvester they would take in those big tramp coles and bring them into the big hay stack. Mm. This great big round thing, the head of the er You've seen pictures of them. Great round things like that, and up and up. And how was it built? Just the same. It was built er It has to be It had to be very well built and firm, because then, when it was used for the cow for the er sheep, usually, that best hay was left for the sheep. You got what they called a h hay knife. A a great big thing about that length maybe and you cut the hay in great swa After that and then you see you carried it out to the sheep. It was a great art i in having a good hay stack, for the time of the winter time for the sheep. Now under the lowest layer of the sheaves were there any stones or branches or briars ever laid underneath? Yes they were, yes, under that. Now what was that for? That was to keep it aired. That was to keep it aired you see? Grand place for rats too. Oh aye. To keep them off the ground? Aye. But that didn't keep the rats off the the The rats went in supposing but er that was to keep the stacks aired. And the stacks weren't built around a central pole? That's the boss she's speaking about. No the bo No. no no, not a central pole, no it was just always a boss. Mhm. A big boss, aha. And Well in our district, why I suppose other folk had different ways but I just speak about our lot, aha. There wasn't any s customs about the stack, that if you went round it er sunwise it would cure your teethache? No I never heard that stories no. Mm. Well that's very good. Did you ever hear the word stip Being used for a pole that was placed against a corn stack to keep it from Of course er couping? Er Oh that was er We called the things that supported the We called them lairgs. Lairgs long bits you know,t We had them We had maybe four at a stack, to keep steady for all winter. Mhm. How how er long were the lairgs Oh they would be ten feet long anyway Mhm. long poles they were, they would be about that. Was this local wood? Er yes, we just Oh they were well looked after the the er lairgs Some of them called them staits Staits? staits instead of lairgs Aha. Very good. Mhm. Mhm. That was was something to stay them you see? Mhm. stay them s firm. Aye, well there's a lot of old words there. I told you that. Aha. Aye. And did you ever use the expression, on a different subject, er a burn sticks? A bundle of sticks? Aye, no. Aha. Oh I my mother called that now what would you call a bundle of sticks? Just a bundle of sticks. Aye but there was a way for carrying that. Oh no . Mm. Was that done on the back? Mhm. What would you call that again? Mother had Granny had it anyway. Then it was burden, but that wasn't the right word either. That might come back. Aye come back. I'll mind it sometime, mind when your away maybe. Mhm. Were there any words to do with eggs? My m my memories not nearly so good as it was. Mrs Mrs says it not bad for my age but there's lots of things I forget. If I mean to mind a thing I never mind it Mhm. and then it'll come back just like that. On the tip of her tongue quite often. Aha. So.. But your your mother had a lot of the old words? Er she had but not so much as father. Mhm. But father had a lot of Gaelic words. Mhm. Mother had a lot of good words too, I must say, but er it was him we learnt a lot of wor And granny especially you learned a lot of words of hers. Mhm. Mhm. What did you Did you have a word for grease? Creesh Creesh? No it was just grease, no. Mhm. We didn't use it often but I know what you mean. Or cheese? Mhm. Cheese was a kebick Mhm. What was a sneck? A sneck was a snib in the door. A snib A snib aha . A sneck was a It was a lo Just a line of er a a piece You've got one on your gate at Dalvaine. Mhm. Sneck. Was it You lifted? Yes. Yes. Mhm. You lift it with Had a a thing like that and a knob like this. And it lifted up, and then fell down, you see. Now a pinafore what was the word? A pinafore, an apron, a pinny. You never used Daidle A daidle My grannie used a Aye. daidle that was an apron, was a daidle Watch your daidle . That's right. Daidley. Mhm. How about an ashet An ashet was just an a flat plate. Mhm. Oval shaped Mhm. was an ashet . What you get a a navvies steak on, you Mhm. know navvies steak. Aye, mhm. A chuchet A chuchet Oh that was er a peesy Chuchet storm was a peesy Aye. What was that name? A chuchet storm was the time we were just in from April when the peesies were laying and there'd just a come a flurry of snow. Just like what we had the day. Aha. Like that, maybe a bitty worse, but anyway that was the chuchet storm Chuchet storm. And that was always about the fourteenth of April. Er today about the sa So if you see one you'll be saying this is the chuchet storm. How about if it was smirring A smir Mhm. Oh just a smir of rain was just a kind of hardly a drizzle. Just a drizzle . Mhm. If you was biking home, you would just get a smir of rain on your faces that's just a smir of rain. Like a harr If somebody was bowsey for bandy legs? Aye he was bowsey Bowsey? Aye bowsey. Bowsey. He was a bowsey aha . Or crooked? Crooked? Aha. Oh well, a crooked things always a crook A crooked thing er aye. Harry had a crooked stick. Aye. Just like that other guy . I hope get on better with your Glen Ess women than me. Oh no no y your you your dam dam boards How long you gonna And two packs of Do you get to keep the walkman? No Did you ask Swap it around. Go on, swear, swear in front of all those Norwegians. piss off Yes it is. What's that? Ah. No Norwegian Erik the Viking Erik the Viking Okay. blue from sir. Gotta pretend that's not on though. gotta pretend that it's not on though . Can I have a blue then sir please. Right. Can I have a blue please. Ooh David what is th yuck. Look at you going Ooh David Ooh. Scream boy. Right, let's see them ready. Bloody cheek of it really Here where the fuck is Roy? Piss off. and asking Go fuck yourself. Dave don't muck about. What have you fucking done Come on then. What are you doing with Spiderman? shut up Right I'm gonna make you go on some jobs for me that won't Me, I go. Well be what? keep you in on Thursdays, so do the work Ooh threatening me hey. Ah you're in trouble now. Yeah, yeah sure though. innit.. inside his arse. Shut up. Don't have to work. Teachers are very unfair in this school, very unfair. Teachers are very unfair in this school innit?innit sir yes they are sonny See what I mean. What? I'm gonna take down you in detention tonight Yes what, I'm allowed to rewind this and erase it you know. So who's sonny Jim? Oh love you. Yes sir. If you want to erm wear an apron I've gotta big one. Dave, Dave, Dave, I've gotta big one Yeah I know. Ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh . Now I am talking to Hello. Hello. hello I am wolf from the Planet of the Apes your fanny Shut up. See Roy yesterday. actually got engraved in the tarmac I'm only joking anyway. So if you want, no joking. Don't be a silly Billy, put a rubber on your willy. Lick your boom boom there . Sir can you . Do you wanna brush? Yeah. Don't be a silly Billy. Why? I can't my hands are dirty Dave, Dave. Don't muck about. Sir, erm are we doing pa sir are we doing papier mache? Sir? Move up a little bit erm Just move up though. Glue have you. Thank you. Now where sir where are they? I lick your boom boom there, I lick your boom boom down . Sitting in my sitting in my crib with my dibby dibby dib mass up mash up crib, slap me in the face and I can't do a . No pick up the telephone ring. informer, informer lick your boom boom down lick your boom boom, down, informer lick your boom boom there Goodnight. Oi, oi, I heard that apology. I lick your boom boom now Money, money, money, money, money, it's a rich man's world ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh. Money, money, money, ooh, ooh, who has money, ooh, ooh, who gave me your cash, or I'll mug you, yes I'll mug you. Ooh give me all your cash not. Not. Wayne's World, Wayne's World, party time excellent. Wayne's World, Wayne's World Wayne's World, excellent, party time. Wayne's World, Wayne's World, party time, excellent. Wayne's World, Wayne's World It's party time, excellent Lick your boom boom now down the lane, lick your boom boom down here come the tiger, nobody move, nobody move, nobody the tiger come nobody move, nobody move. Nobody move the tiger Oh shit. Bubble bobble. Bubble bobble, wibble wobble, bubble bobble. I lick your boom boom down . The pesticides get me the pesticides. You know man just hush hush, if you know what I mean. You tell him to shut up. Did I did they say anything about adoption? Damn fool. your mum was adopted. What you lying for? What is she? No what is she? What breed? Oh gosh, that's a good one. What breed oh me. chihuahua chihuahua. knick knack paddy wack, give a dog a bone, Wolf went barking all way home. Knick knack paddy wack, give a dog a bone, good old Wolf went wobbling home and a knick knack paddy wack, give a dog a bone, my old man went tumbling home Did you realise what we're going to do, when you've got about and a knick knack paddy wack give the dog a bone, my old man went tumbling home and a knick knack paddy wack give a dog a bone my old man went tumbling home How much is that doggy in the window, woof woof Woof woof, woof woof. This is cool man. . It's a f it's as fine as a line. Who's that girl who's that girl who's that girl . Yeah, Pulsar, rough, er Quasar's much, Quasar is lame compared to Pulsar. Er Marc. Yeah. What's better, Pulsar or Quasar? And which ways is Quasar better? Pulsar it's more better. Mm. There's this other one. Yeah,Kilburn. It's rough meat. sonic boom, sonic boom man. Shit. I'm just gonna do strips already just oh I need some scissors then. See I'm so petite and perfect and all that lot and what not ever. Sir have you got any swissors Scissors? swissors sic) yeah. Oh there they are, thanks sir, nice one. showing people these. No, yeah I did. Wasn't here. Then why were you late? Erm I had to go to Mr Walker's to get this thing. Why? This tape thing look. they're funky. What's that for? par particular plays you know like Christmas plays The girl's got some goofy teeth. Mm that one's good. But these other ones Can you see what's the difference between me Sir you're No. Erm it's much more colourful. Much more colourful yeah, it's not realistic is it. What would you call it? No. Erm science fiction. Not science fiction, it's called symbolic Mm yeah. Symbolically that What? Mm. yeah, or chic or something. symbolic religious Mm. and it represents sort of spiritual people. Yeah. people for spirits Come to me my son symbolic Yeah. Er symbolic if you wanna look at No it's okay. Thanks sir. . Come on, where's my present? Shame . Where's my pen gone? . Sir, have you got a pen? It was here sir. A pen, you don't need a pen now. Yeah I need to write something down. On what, what for? Some paper for this thing. What are you making? Erm, it's a do it's a log. A log? Yeah a book, log book. About what? About teenagers talking and that. When I have a conversation with you I have to write it down. Conversation log.. Right Said Fred Deeply dippy about Sir how old are you, I need all this? Yeah. How old are you? Just tell me. Forty? Forty eight. Uh, uh, old man! Innit?. Sir, do you have any children? Yeah How old are they sir? Gosh. Stop it Oh, be quiet man. Sir, how much would you sell this pen for? I need it, I need it. Oh. I don't get time to go shopping every day. Sir? Yes. Shut up Marc. international heroes We are in Sandra, in Sandra . lick your boom boom now a lick your boom boom now chicken sound . Stop it Marc a little boy in the . Marc No I'm not stop it Terry Venables blew a army I'll be there . Hold this in your hands. What? Yuck, it's disgusting. Yes,man. Can you not see what erm er this woman fainted into my arms and she was embracing me for letting her not take her fall. He's a stupid. Oh sorry. No its not Oh yeah, right we all believe that. come up to get her, do not tell another lie any more. I need to embrace. Any kind. Winnie, you have been, you have been, you have been cheating on me. No, I have not, I have been cheating on you. You should have learned it. Mm? in the morning. So what? Please don't beat me dad Only joking. Yeah boy, I told you to do your homework No, stop daddy, stop it, stop By the way this is a play. Oh,S S S Sandra, will you go out Shut up No, I won't go away Don't take any notice of this, this is my friend Marc here, he's speaking a lot of crap at the moment. Do not have a girlfriend called Sandra, and if I did, I think I'd kill myself. So very good. Barbara. Do you No,not my girlfriend, she's my ex-girlfriend,like like like like No Marc. What? just go away Max the lion give me my Sandra it's time. Any other,Do man come at me like you're some typhoon Yeah listen to t what, what music do you like Wolf? Do you like pop music? Oh, no, Bros Will I, will I be I can when will I see my pictures in the paper. There's no when will I will I be famous, when will I see my pictures in the paper. When will I, will I be famous, I'm not a good guy any more Now, right you're gonna stay if you can't work quietly. Right oh oh er. Damn idiot don't trust no bitch, bitch, bitch, bitch. No, isn't He's got it take it off the wall. By the way, I'm recording this. Oh yeah, erm can I erm use a pen I need to write down on the log, on the log. shit it you wanna know, I give you it. jacket. It's not mine. It's David Wilson's The stinky jacket that's over there. . Walk around with the whole bloody classroom. Oh, oh, oh, Oi, stop mucking about . No Marc don't stop mucking about Say what? Papier mache all over him. going to get you You better check whoa. Better start checking mate. Oh shit. Oh shit. Mr. Walker's room. . Julian, yeah erm, er your twelve little you . I'm ill. Don't feel well . relationship to himself. Class mate. Yeah. Don't put it down. round partner Erm, I've or friend. No, not the cool hand of death. There's a hole down there. Hole down where? hole down there. Oh. Oh yeah. I hate Emma, such a cheat. Don't trust no, don't trust no, don't trust no. Bitch, bitch, bitch, bitch. Bring out the holes down with some new improved shit. Don't beat me, get off my bum. Don't trust no. Didn't I said, didn't I just said,I I just said get off my bum . Don't trust no, don't don't trust no battery, battery man. Hey where's my balloon gone now? You're a cheat. Come with a nice young lady intelligent . oh, ah, don't break my back, don't break my back . Hip hop hooray ho, hey, ho, hey, ho, hey, ho. . Ho, hey, ho, ho, hey ho . Marc, cut me up some strips. Come on man, look, so glue. Just cut them up for me then. Get it yourself bitch. Come on man, I've got Come with a nice young lady, intelligent In a cardboard box, informer lick your boom boom there lick your boom boom there with my dibby, dibby dob, police knock my door, they shout my crib, rough me up and I can't do a thing, pick up the when the telephone ring informer . What? Singing about. Damn fool man, damn fool man. The damn, damn fool man,the damn, damn fool man . Hip hop hooray, yo, hey, ho, hey, ho, hey, ho. . Yeah, nice Max. What are you gonna stick on here? Done many layers have you? I know, I'm qu I'm not good at this. You know what I usually do, I stick it all in and then whilst it's still in there I Yeah man, same here. I'm shitty. Can't do this man. finished sir Boom, boom, boom, boom I love that song. Right, Max if you can't shut up I'm not having you in here Cos I've got a lot of love . I've gotta lot of love. Gotta lot of love. Oh sir, look it's all shabby it's coming off everywhere. Max Shut up. Piss off. Max mate you soaked me. Codge wadge away, yo. Yo. Yeah. Yo. Hey. Ho. Hey. Hey, ho, yo, yo. Hey, hey, hey, hey, ho, ho. So Richard. So Richard. I pronounce you Sir Richard. Go . Ho, hey, ho hi, ho, hey, ho, hip hop hooray, funky, get down, a-boogie, get down. .Marc I want to pass wind I want to To break wind. I want to break wind I want to I want to break wind . fucking hole . Hey, Marc, Marc there's people going home you know. There's people going home. Yes they'd like to go home and get Yes matey. a lick your boom boom down,a lick your boom boom down Right er, you lot if you can't stop making that stupid racket, I can't . Okay. was a nice young lady, intelligent . So informer . That's what I was gonna do. Yeah, you always do. .I'm gonna take him to outer space to find another race, I'm gonna take him to outer space . I'm gonna tape my Ice Cube tape. Huh, what? . Oh rubbish. ..you know. Right people here at half past three, if I have to tell them about fooling about . Come with a nice young lady Mm? Erm let me see erm Max. Max have you seen him? What about him? They're rough yeah is erm and all the way round it's got air bubble from here to there all the way round. They're rough th well they cost, they cost dollars. Watch, when you drop it and you smash them, watch they'll kill you. What? Yeah I know. How old are you Wolf, thirteen innit? In nineteen seventy nine u unusual individuals Wolf In nineteen seventy nine an unusual phenomenon happened. A boy named came into the world and he shook it. It was incredible image erm ability to fuck then an elephant and here we go . Very impressive isn't it? . Oh man I wanna go home. . Cries and whispers. . A campaign for secrecy is say what, say what. Shut up Er we're not gonna go in five minutes unless you're sitting quietly hey yo, yo, hey yo, yo, hey yo yo, don't you know, hey yo, yo, here I go, hey yo, yo, yeah, yeah, yeah Hip hop, hip hop. . There it is, gosh. Look, I was looking for my pen and it was there all along. Shut up silly . This is all sound effects by the way. Where are they? Did they make them? We'll come with the funky big nose and that. Innit? I get pretty unavailable its a really good time for you to get in an argument with me. Mm? I'm doing my homework while I'm erm whilst I'm doing my homework which I'm getting pretty frustrated about. I'm going to bed now erm it's ten past ten Yes Mum. Yeah, we could just play with . Yeah I know erm like. What about might be going out with his mum or something, or going to his gran's. Oh, then And will have nothing to do in it exactly. Then might be in there. Yeah but what if he isn't. But at least when we go to yeah, you get to go to places like ice skating. Oh yeah, Michael's as well. Not all the time. Yeah, I know not all the time, but it's better than sitting on your fat arse at home innit. Yeah,guess so. You might don't it? Wrestle Now listen to him. Shut up that's the way to say it, Who do I trust, who do I trust me, that's who. Who do I trust, who do I trust, me that's who. all of the all of the Yeah, but I'm not listening to and this isn't I'm this is my log. Oh shut up man. You have to be quiet. You're so loud, can't you see us recording it? Bloody heater. Good. Shut up. Damn heater. can't ooh, ooh, can't ooh, ooh, can't . Time is eight o'clock Oh shut up, tell this Oh shut up you're so stupid always causing Ow. always making trouble you are, you're a trouble maker. You're a dreeb Shut up. Shut up No. This'll do. What you doing? Peanut head. Shut up. Peanut head. Bean head. No. Boil head. I don't want to. Have I got a boil head then? Have I? No you've got a piggy head. You've got apple jumble. Apple jumble. Who who who's one's is that? That isn't your one's that's Audrey's. This one apple jumblies yeah apple jumblies Obviously started it off cos he had apple jumble. Everyone apple jumbles. Audrey started it off. But they all do though. I like that thing in Ice Cube when it goes time twelve o'clock, knickers hot, dick hard, arse Well how do you think probably on the first level innit, or when it's starting up. behaviour What things? Behaviour. Oh I don't think so. Just don't think so. Don't think so mate. Huh? I Don't think so mate. Knickers hot, hard arse or what. Watch all tomorrow I'm gonna be talking about games. Mm. Yeah, I had this big argument no, I had this big argument Mm. With David Robinson all about how Super Nintendo is better than a Megadrive or Megadrive is better than a Super Nintendo big argument And you said Super Nintendo No Sega Megadrive, Super Nintendo's Cackup You said Super Nintendo. Huh? You said Super Nintendo. Yeah. Yeah. Super Nintendo's Cackup That's the cackest games machine. The shittiest. to use man. Yeah I know. Meg all Megadrive What? Super Nes quite hard to use. Mm I know, but it's not that, it's the games they're just plain rubbish and cack and like that. They've got too many continues in it as well. Yeah most of the games have got duff continues. Erm They make innit? Innit? Mm. but some games They make sure you you know why they do that, so then you can go out and buy another game another one of their games and then this so then just keep on clocking them up yeah, and go out to buy a m more games so you spend more money of their games. Yeah, but Megadrives do make their game their games like easy as well. No they're not. Not, not all of them but some of them. Most of them are hard man. Some of the are We got Master System But Sega Master Systems are har all of them are hard. Yeah, they're the hardest. you know. Yeah I know. Everyone reckons Master System games is harder. Mm. as well, but not everyone does because they they just the graphics. Mm graphics and It depends on how good the game play is you know. You can get so bored on a Megadrive man, clocking up all the Oh well look at Tazmania though, that was Yes that was easy Yeah. That was And the Megadrive is hard. Yeah,it 's it's easy on Megadrive though. harder than most, it's got more levels than Master System too. Has it? Yeah. Completely different course. I know. Guess what, they made one for Super Nintendo. Tazmania? It's so cack When you're doing the running, you're running from behind, you can only see the behind of Taz you see the behind of Taz Tazmania? Yeah. Oh this is so rubbish man. You can only see like his back his legs an and the back of running. They're copycats man So shit man. Mm, Sega's better. Sega are blatantly better. Yeah. They know, they just strive and survive Super Nintendo. Game Boy rubbish. Mm, no, erm yeah I know. Look, look at Super Nintendo, tell me I want you to name me twenty good games you can't, you can't. That's got no continues? No, no twenty good games base it. Base it? Base it. Twen s s you can't do it, you can't do it. No let me try Super Mario No, no all right then twe t twenty good games. Super Mario Kart, that's one Street Fighter, that's a good one. That's rubbish. It's a good game. It's rubbish. No. Everyone No, it is rubbish. Yes, Street Fighter is rubbish. Street Fighter Two is Super Nintendo. Mm, go on. Let me think of one. Exactly you have to think a long time. erm that Mm. Erm erm Castlevania is rubbish. That's shit. And then Super Soccer's quite good, but it's getting you get a bit bored of it It's rubbish Just get bored with it. Erm Let me help you out,Tiny Toon Adventures Well that's good. Star Wing. Star Wars. Yeah, Super Star Wars, Super Tennis, erm erm seven so far. Joe and Mac Ninja Cavemen. Mm, Joe and Mac Ninja Cavemen. Yeah. Erm Final Fight. It's not that good, cos it's either Final Fight you have to be or you can only pick out of and or it's Final Fight guy where you can only be or Guy. No, but you only like or Mm, I know but it's so stupid though innit? I know, but that is so stupid though innit? No, it depends on the game pl play is. So what erm Erm Fatal Fury. Mm that's okay. Yeah, it's okay. It's kind of cack though cos the is so small. But you to be on one of them innit? Mm. But who's erm who's fighting for their daughter or girlfriend Erm it's Hagarth Hagarth is erm that's his daughter. Hagarth's daughter? Mhm. Yeah. But what? When you play it on the arcade Yeah. You and Codie that's it. When you Codie and Hagarth Yeah. On arcade you can be either Guy you can be Guy and Codie and leave out Hagarth but most people go for Hagarth Hagarth Some people call him Hagarth and some people call him Haygarth and some call him erm Haygar some people call him Hagge or all that lot. Some people call him Hadger some people call him Hadger I reckon is Hagar Yeah Hagar Hagar Hagar Hagar Yeah American name innit. Hagar Mm. Do you know that's eight games man. It's shit. there be twenty What? and you go shit. Gu Guy? Yeah. He's crap. I know,the best. No one ever got Guy I know,Codie Codie or Now nev no one ever used to be Codie C Codie is like It's either Guy or Hagarth But Yeah because you know why people never tried him, cos everyone used to sit like like some people that are rubbish at the game yeah, they say oh, this Guy's shit and what they do they say oh, it's shit and tell everyone don't be him, don't him he's shit. C Codie So you'll just be wasting your so no one ever tries him out, but I've tried Codie him out, he's good you know, better than Guy. Codie Codie's like like erm Codie just like that erm oh, yeah yeah, if you Yeah. I don't care. Same jeans, same t-shirts Exactly same jeans, same jeans, same t-shirt got same colour hair. Yeah. Same colour eyes. And they, and they both got it like that, they both got it like that. but Streets of Rage yeah Streets of Rage. They both go like that. I like Streets of Rage but I like Streets of Rage One an and that erm erm They both go like that You know, Final Fight's like Streets of Rage One I know. Yeah Final Fight's but it isn't actually I know cos Guy and Codie yeah Three people. Er Guy and Codie yeah is erm Codie is erm and Guy is erm Adam and and Axle is erm Hagarth Hagarth yeah. Not really though, yeah not really. I tell you yeah, this yeah and thing right and erm it's what's this is Streets of Rage Two and Fata Final Fight yeah. Max is Hagarth definitely. Oh yeah. Yeah, yeah okay yeah okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah okay, okay, okay, yeah, erm erm let me see Blaze is Guy Blaze is Guy. Codie is Axle. Yeah. That's it. What about Yeah I know. No one 's escaped. innit Yes. older than that. About fifteen. I can just say that I've clocked it, even though I can I just I can't clock it yeah I can just say I could cos I know how it end. I know. Man lying on the floor yeah, Yeah. Instead Adam? Erm, no No the guy that was the machine gun. Mister X, Mister X yeah. See him lying on the floor yeah, he's dead, and then You see others going like this and then you see Adam he's in these chairs,with his arms like that yeah and he's kneeling down yeah and and it's really good graphics yeah and then you see them outside Yeah. with erm with erm yeah they're all lined up yeah yeah and you can see erm Blaze and Max yeah and Max going like this Yeah. and then you see all of them from behind, yeah and you see on Adam's shoulders Yeah. and all lined up Yeah. and they're all waving at this helicopter and I know. and it's in the sunshine and then it ends. I know. Yeah, I know. I saw it in the Games Master magazine yeah. you told me. Mhm. So bloody boring. What? This. What, what you're doing now? Yeah, we're sitting here and talking about crap. Yeah let's talk about games. Erm to do. Lemmings Two. Yeah, get Lemmings Two. I found out that my friend's games, my friend's games but he he's lent it out to some Mm. So when he gets it back I Mhm. Yeah. then take it back So I know Mm? Yeah what about it? No well we need disks to record it. No you don't. Yes we do. Yes, but Sellasie Mm? You see they have the set-up disk Then we've got to together it's a set-up disk. Uh Huh. What do you think that disk you are holding was? type in. Sellasie. Sellasie, right if yeah you can do that, but you still need back-up files. Something might go wrong. Exactly. Something might go wrong. can't go wrong is that the th the thing in you put in the computer won't go off won't go off and won't be on the computing see what I'm saying? That's what they have to that's what they they do Can you join the group. All right. Yeah. All right what like here keep it that Yes, well you just put volume of water in that one. Oh. You've got ten minutes to see who's one dropped Is there a price? Is there a price? The price is commendation and glory and honour. Oh Simple enough glory and honour. Shitty. I know. Hulk and the fantastic all against all odds. Yes I got it right here. No, who said who said he was borrowing it? borrow it. Yeah, well I 'm I 'm I'm still borrowing it. You are a you know Not really. No. I haven't even heard the rest of the songs. I tell you what Yeah. I'll let you listen to it, I brought it in today. Rough tape what. Who can I trust, who can I trust, me, that's who. Ooh you bean heads. Ooh. Let's see it. He's got it in his bag. Get it out of his bag. too tired and there's a in it Shit That's rough you see it yeah, there's aliens there, they catch superiors yeah and they take them it's wicked that each other and other people he's the champion, him and his erm girlfriend are the champions. Oh is that the aliens? No he's the he's just the champ champion of the he's the Yeah all right then. under the desk comics That's mine sir. Not my idea of science. What? It's shit Cooler than just Just ricochet off his body you know. .and so bloody loud It is Louder with you in it innit? You're supposed a old one. The world's mightiest teacher against all guns. It's one hell of a boring conversation man I'm turning this cr shit thing off. This is so boring innit? Mm. Who's your partner then, who's your partner then ? nobody wants you Dawn Dawn hasn't got any friends Oh shut up. Shut up. Eighty-nine. Eighty-one. Eighty-two. Oh, oh. I was talking about you yesterday. Everybody quiet, I'm trying to listen and listen. Cos about remember the argument we had in maths about Sega and Nintendo. What, what, what? Yeah. What you saying? I was talking with my brothers about it. What you saying, what? Is it on now? Yeah, it's on now. Recording you in it. say, Super Nintendo Se Super Nintendo's a bit all right though. Yeah, it's okay, yeah but a Megadrive's better innit? I know man. Megadrive's better man. Yeah they can It's half past man Yeah I have. Got a lot to do. No, course don't think so. Oh was there. Oh was that the was that this private doctor? it wasn't my fault though. Oh June please get off. June, June, June, June you creep get off June ooh Don't come near me again. Bitch. . Shit. June, I didn't know you felt that way. Get off shut up. Give us my pass. June isn't too much . Push June, push . Not. When you've put it away, sit down. Can you all bring your please. Oh guess what, yeah? There's this man I know and he's that quick yeah, he's he erm my uncle yeah, he's at college and there's this man at his college yeah and listen yeah because they've got t v's and they're allowed to stay up as long as they want. Listen, what are you watching and he goes twilight zone. burn it up, burn it. I was talking to you lot earlier on innit. Yeah. Yeah. Right, sit down please listen . Sit down and be quiet please. Sir how old are you? Sit down and be quiet. Turn it off. Hello erm this is June, say hello June. Hello Oh erm, oh forget it, forget it. Turn this off please. Erm I'm gonna do erm this one. Right I'm gonna do that I want to be free. come over to you I done it in neat. Oh, it's at home, forgot it. see it I had to go to the doctor okay then. Yeah, but I 'm I'm doing this erm Yeah, all right, but you work on that right? Yeah. I wanna be free What? I have to have it on I wanna have a conversation. Well speak to me then. Speak to me. I'll turn it off then. let me use the Tippex. let me use the Tippex. Let me use the Tippex please Phillipe. Yeah okay. Mind if I keep it yeah? I'm gonna anyway yeah. Nice one, see you. What are you doing Give my give my book back mm. cheek. Yeah, so what. I don't give a damn, I don't give a damn. Shut up, hush hush. What are you doing? Damn fool, take it in. Just hush your mouth. Better not stop mucking about with it,get ripped or anything, gonna go out and by me a new book. Pay me five quid. Look will you put your hand up Shit. . Shame. behave. shame David . I am waiting for quiet from everyone. Shame David. No. will you stand up Why are you talking? Why are you talking in class? Get lost to get the chop. Ben, Ben, Ben. What? When is it your Ben day. why are you buying me No, I'm bur I'm buying you a new pack of condoms. Gonna buy you a house. Empty pack of condoms. Yeah. I'm gonna get him one of those machines that gives condoms when you put a pound in yeah. Erm, let me see one, two, three, four. Four centimetres. Four millimetres actually. Yeah. Oi, I wanna Where is it? No. Give it back. yourself. No. I didn't want. Yeah. Oh oh I just recorded that I was gonna keep all the words but I'm only joking Not. Good old Ben you said yes. Yeah I know No. You get ketchup, you get blast up, you get ketchup you get blast up, oh oh. Blanks and spanks you get blank and then you get spank. By Ben's mum. What's it called About er and the next one comes up It's good is it is it. You just get it anywhere it's not worth the sort of on it. It is the special That look's wicked though. No. Do you know who that looks like? No. No that's like that in erm Spiderman and he's like the Punisher and he's dressed in green. No, no he looks like he's trigger happy boy. Erm yeah. No Kass Yeah he does look like but oi, you know that Spiderma oi oi, oi you know that Spiderman one you had yeah where deathlock is that was Spiderman and erm it erm and erm Spiderman's talking to this guy and erm he's he's dressed in green and he looks just like erm death like erm Kill Power. What's the name called again? Like comics Bring it is it? You've got them all. No I've gotta I've gotta find out which which comics are which which . Mm, yeah . I can't find out which comic it is. Look fo look for the guy man. Which man, him? Yeah. He looks like him but he's in green and he's like the Punisher but he's trigger happy boy. Just a madman. Bring in some tomorrow. Ben, let me have a look at that erm Punisher comic of yours. Why? Well cos I saw the cover of it and it looked really good. Why. Why? I'm coming this way. No. Wanna swap it in your mum's punny Yeah I know, it's cos I stretched it when I wanked her. Yes I did. Yeah cos I I fucked her and when my big dick went inside it stretched it, it stretched it. It stretched it and started all bleeding and I had and I had to sew it up with a sewing kit. Cos it's got loads of blanks inside. Has it? Yep. Cos it's the banks. I would like to see your Amiga dick head. What? I told you that one. You told me that one? Yeah. That one's older. Red light and the cobwebs on erm here comes mum's pussy. They're old. Ten years old each . Cos no-one's got the nerve to go and fuck her . Cos they'll know they'll be run cos they'll be run and one would be running in And then the doctor couldn't be bothered to it. The doctor was so ugly yeah, no, no that when the doctor s when the doctor saw her, no when the doctor saw her, she was so ugly he just had to run, couldn't be worth cutting the prinny hole . Right, you know your dick yeah, right you know your dick, yeah you know it's got that slit on the very end of it, if that wasn't slit I swear your whole body would be full of piss. What? Cos none of the piss would be able to get out if there wasn't a slit on your dick chewing gum. Oh no. Oh no What? She goes when she was born either he was chewing some chewing gum and it fell out and it went ins caught in your mum's prinny and it glued it together See you tomorrow dudes. No, you'll catch Why not? Why not? Lookout you get you better get on the thing. Man, this was the best ice-cream I've ever had. Ice pop. Have we, have we? Pass the ball. What? Can't. Pass the ball. Ha ha you did get it and he still gets it. P J. P J Yeah, have you seen it? Yeah have you seen that break. Oh. Just just just and it just don't bring it over here back here. Back it . Look out wonder Uh huh I want here. I want here. Hello. I want. Hi mum. I've got some money cos I owe you some. How much do I owe you? Erm because erm er it's about half an hour before break time. Only the first lesson which is music and we just we just do chords and er thing. How much is that? You have given me thirty pence. Thirty pence. You got more than thirty pence thirty pence. Yeah I know I know I owe you ninety-nine P. I've got I'll give you the rest tomorrow I've got twenty-nine P back. No, twenty-five twenty-eight. That's twenty-nine. Twenty-nine, twenty I owe you er sixty seventy P. Yeah, okay. I want you to answer it. Yeah. girl I'll be right here be right here have no fear, have no fear be right here Yeah? Bless me. Yeah what? You come here. All right wait a second, I'm coming down. What? Don't see why it should I suppose you can. Rude boy in the house. Why the house. It's just a bad case of de ja vu, de ja vu, de ja vu, yeah and I got some rough comics you know. My friends loaned them to me, my friend Tom erm I've got No, I've got Overkill and it's and it's Battle tide, it's got it's got erm Deaths Head Two and Kill Power. Kill Power's the best week. There's a there's this guy you know this guy Kill Power, yeah, looks that's kill that's him there yeah. Yeah. He's got the mind of a ten-year old. see he goes hey wanna play and all that lot. I've got this other called the New Warriors, it's Namoree versus Nova it's rough. It's I've had a look at Battle Tide a little look at it and it's New Warriors though. Hello Auntie. Give me a cuddle. How are you? You didn't tell me you were coming. No. You didn't tell anyone you were coming. I didn't you didn't tell anyone you were coming Didn't know. No I didn't think I was coming. It won't matter. for my sister. Okay Boring. Yeah boring. What? Boring and hot. Yeah, erm I think you should do my Well how was school then? Okay. Boring. Boring? Yeah. Are you taking your exams? Oh no you're not are you. No. You'll have to come and see us again some time. Yeah. . Hi Dad. Mm? Nothing. From the top of the stairs on this thing here. Dad, dad, Auntie has to go somewhere I don't know where, but she just told me to call you cos it's quarter past fifteen minutes past six or is it seven? Yeah fifteen minutes past six. So you have to go somewhere now don't know where but Auntie Dad your sister wants you. Yeah, I'm coming just tell her I'm coming all right. Okay, okay, don't get so mad and hectic. Stop mucking about on that football damn idiot. Take my two pounds. Yeah. Hey I can hear what I'm saying with these erm earphones. I can hear what I'm saying I ain't tried this one before. What you going to school already? Oi, you going to school already? I'm going twenty past. Oh. Yes that's the time I'm going as well. Why? Cos I am. Just cos I am. cos last time I Right Dad, see you. Oh yeah, I better take that back. Where did I put my homework. I am so bad, so bad, yes so bad oh yeah. Mum. Erm I'm going. Have you had something to eat? No I'm not hungry. Understand What? What? What? Mm? What you said? Oh shut up. Some people's problems all calling me crinkly head mad or something. Where's the blasted game boy ones gone? No I didn't. It's around here somewhere. I don't know where. Where are they?taken then . this business. Get out my face What's this? Oh Yes. I have them the undisputed champions of they're idiots. So I can just because they have been found and I shall use them you shut up, or should I shut up. I've got my own I choose when to shut up. I choose when not to shut up. Yes so why did you say shut up in the first place? Yeah but I'm not gonna shut up. Yeah, yeah yeah I am, I am, I am gonna make a thank you very much. Bitching. start bitching Stop bitching. What the have to give me blacks blacks yes, it is done. yes wicked, no, not wicked. some blacks. I know you don't care. Cos he just don't care. . Oh shut up. Yeah, sounds just like just like when you said it innit? I've got, I've got batteries for it. yeah go on all crap. Dumb bitch dumb bitch. Dumb Why do you like picking up the telephone so much? Does it make you feel important or something. Stupid. Stupid. Okay Mum, bye. Bye people. By everyone, see you some other time if you know what I mean. Just shut up. Was I talking to you? Elee. bitching around now. stupid. Stop bitching. Aha yes, it is done, it is perfect, it is Oh shut up. na di da di doo, na di da di do, na di doo di a di do na di da di di, na di da di do, na di doo da yes got hip hop hooray on this tape. where that bitching thing now. Where's that comic cover gone have you seen that comic cover? Yeah was on my batteries gone as well. Hey stop bitching. Stop bitching whoa. Thursday. What the Thursday stop bitching. Oh yeah, that's okay yeah. It's nice it's sweetie,Yeah see you dweebs later yeah? Well gotta fly see you later. Yeah Mama. Okay Mama, okay Mama, Mama I do your Mama. I'm copying you lot y'know, I'm taping you now so maybe you just better hush and Say something Justin Hello I can't hear, I can't hear Hello Hello hello it's working. Say hello t d' you want to say hello? Hello She's a cow What happened? What happened? What happened? What happened? Oh yeah yeah yeah. Yeah, it's got that nasty . Yeah How could you not hear about it? No no no she's in second year, third year Oh, what's that?can't spell . She's done the S and the L backwards. Oh Sharon. Sharon, that's it, I could not get her name last night. I was trying to think of her name oh yeah that one's ok actually That one's wicked That one looks good as . Oh yeah, it was mine, it was me innit, it was s it's excellent. What's this? Oh my gosh, what is that one? . Oh no, hey, think that's bad, come here. Some person , I feel sorry for them. Look. Oh, the S backwards, the L backwards, the backwards and not even a I in there. That's mine That one's , that one's , that's innit? Right, everybody now has their Mhm mhm. Well you'd better It's cold in here man. I'm putting my jacket on. The first thing you need to know is that when they need to wear armour. What does that tell us about ? It was dangerous They were very dangerous and brutal. Highly aggressive so you had to yourself . That's one piece of evidence. made a statement gladiatorial games were very violent. Somebody will say, well how do you know that? And you'll say well, why else would they need to wear armour to protect themselves unless it was quite dangerous? What are you two doing? Oi Oh, there's there's Chinese, Japanese, dirty knees, look at these Well, I've got chewing gum Have I? Have I got some then? Are you staying in all day today? Yes. Erm, cos I've got to go down to Horley I've got to go to the bank. You'll be alright? Yeah, alright. Here on your own? Yep. won't you? Yep. You know I'm not going Yeah I've got a lot of English prep to do. Have you? A lot of grammar work. Have you? O K. Yeah. Yes, O K well I'm going to er I've got lots of work to do before I can go. Yeah I know. I shan't be going until about lunch time. And you'll be O K? Yep. Alright. I'll leave it to you, to your prep then. Yeah. Ah how's the old prep going eh? Well I've finished it. Oh you've finished it, oh good. Alright? Mhm. Well I hope you get on well with what you're doing for your scenery. Yeah. Alright? O K. See you later. Yeah. Cos in York, or Yorkshire, they have those as starters with gravy. You just have those in a big bowl of gravy. Ugh. Ugh. We went, when we were staying in York, we went to erm used to go to a pub for our meals didn't we? Oh yes, that's right. And erm I've seen these at ten o'clock at night you know people come in and have a bowl of sort of soup, and, well I suppose it's gravy in there. And I tried it one night, it was very yummy and very filling. Oh my god I don't like doing this. Pardon? And I don't like this weather. Neither do I. It's terrible, isn't it? Sometimes it's colder indoors than out actually, isn't it? It's gone on, well it is if the sun's out, and you know if the sun's out. You want your health in the summer. Yeah. I don't remember this before. Oh yes they are, I've got all Well move up a bit this way Fred if you don't mind. No, it's alright. Get round the leg. I don't know why I've not noticed it before. Yeah. It's got four legs on it. Well, why don't you start helping yourself spoons Yes. Oh let me get . Make some room sonny. Well who the hell put an empty horseradish pot back in the cupboard? Do you have ? John. Lovely. There's really no horseradish? I found three empty jars. Oh dear. Well I thought I'd put horseradish on the whatsit one week. Yes fetching a spoon or two Do erm,have jobs. oh you're doing a grand job there. Oh you've made a mistake here John. What's that? You've cooked the carrot. Not too much I hope. all soft. We haven't had roast beef for ages. No. Ah. Silver service, eh? That's why nobody else is anything else. If you want to get yourself a drink, Alex, do. Do you want white wine Mum? This is well, well cooked. Yes please Anna. The special touch, you might say . Are these the ones you put in when we went out? Yes. They really ought to have got moved down to the bottom. I find it's very difficult in these ovens to, you know a normal oven you could sort of put things to the bottom that you've already done . Yes. Well you can Well you can't these, can you? you can in mine cos mine's, mine's Yes but then you still have heat coming from the and the top, top and the bottom don't you? Yes, yes you do. Then you've got the top's a grill as well so that Yes. you can get two places that are hot, and on top it's absolutely No, you take that out. I take my grill out. Do you? Yes, if I'm not using the grill I take it out. It would take a long time to get our grill out because I don't think it would move any more. Can somebody pass me the new potatoes please? Hang on I'll move this one. Oh my god. Oh god. Oh dear. Do you want some red? Mm. Thank you very much. Right? Pass your granddad some . fight for that space. Could you, erm, spear me a roasty A roasty, a very roasty, or a medium roasty? Oh I don't mind. As they come. Thank you. Do you only want one? Erm yes. Did you find another horseradish thing, did you? Erm a paper top one. Oh, I give it, is that horseradish? Oh yes. Yes, that's in there John. They're all virtually empty. I mean I'll, I'll, I'll have some er Thank you. Mum, do you want some of this? No, I've got mustard thank you John. I'll have mustard please? You can have the horseradish. I want a bit more horseradish Oh well, I'll, I'll have a bit of horseradish when I've mustard off. Pass the gravy. John took gravy before its How many more Mum. Gosh, this beef is tender. Erm Cheers. Cheers everybody. Cheers John. The only problem is it's only worth buying if you're buying a reasonable sized piece. Mm. Can't really buy a small piece. Is this the same as a wing rib? Or is that something different? Well I'd call it fore rib. Then you've got little ribs after that. Start with big. Do you have it, erm sort of boned? No. Not at all? Well I used to this was two ribs . That's what fore rib's the small one. The other rib, of beef I mean, to get a piece that's worth cooking cos to carve it and everything else you need at least three ribs and the ribs are sort of usually it's about that sort of size Mm and you're talking about a piece at least about eight, seventeen, eighteen pounds. Who did the gravy? Mm? There's so much fat in the gravy. Lovely. Yes this beef's come out very well hasn't it? It's very tender. Mm. Yes, very nice. Delicious. It's not maybe as rare as you ought to have it but it really tastes nice. With disasters and all it's come out reasonably well at the end of the day. Did it have a disaster? Yes dad. Oh. It's lovely. Well you've created something rather nice out of your disaster then. The cornflour packet didn't have much left in it. The gravy's a disaster. It's got too much fat in it. I didn't think it had got enough. Well I never put salt and pepper in my gravy so If you use cornflour I use cornflour and two Oxo's. Do you? Yeah. That's what I normally use. Yeah. If I'm then doing things, if I'm doing beef gravy I put the beef stock cube, and either one or two Oxo's to Oh. of cornflour. And then add all the juices from the meat. But I don't add anything else. gravy we're having today. No. This is totally different. I never put salt and pepper in my gravy, I never have done. No. That's what I like, like about mum's gravy. But I always add all the juices from the meat. Out of the meat tin and How did you do this gravy then dad? With difficulty. No, you've got Bovril, you've got, erm, Oxo's. some garlic and pepper and some cornflour and then your mother had to lob in some, something else. Because we'd run out of cornflour and it was all not thick enough. lob in? Your use of the English language in front of the microphone is extremely What are you talking about? It's lucky I don't talk to a microphone very often. a microphone over there, dad, and it's turned on. Oh no. Nobody'll know who's speaking. No, well. But they will now. So I don't think it matters. They'll they don't know who your dad is. They do. They don't. They know whose household this is. They don't. They know this is the household. They will now. They don't. It's under my name. They do now. No, it's under my name. Yeah, but they do now that it's the household. . Ha. Can I have some more Yorkshire puddings please, daddy? Half a one or so I suppose. Very nice Yorkshires John. Did you do them? Well Alex mixed the mix, I put them in the oven and Sue told me get them out or they'll burn. So it was a sort of a three way erm Oh I see yeah. thing really. They were only burning because you put in what was written on the packet. Well what's written on the packet is correct unless you have the grill not exactly red hot but about three eighty five. Twenty five minutes isn't a bad time Oh I never cook them for twenty, twenty to twenty five minutes it would be a disaster. Oh well. Nor've I. I was going to say, do you cook Alexander? Yeah. You're interested in cooking? Chinese meal the other day, didn't you? Yes. Very very nice Chinese meal. What made at home, or Mm. Yes, oh yes or sent for? No, he made it. What stir fry and all that stuff? Mhm. sauces, soy sauces and things like that. Mm. Then what was it? It was braised prawns er we had erm lamb, marinated lamb bits with erm erm garlic and cinnamon as well Well garlic and spring onions. spring onions. And we had erm chicken noodles with bamboo shoots. And mushrooms. And mushrooms. Was there anything else? We didn't do rice. We were going to do rice but there was Stir fry veg. Yeah, stir fry veg. What, did you do all this did you? Well, me and mum. No,operation. I did most of the preparation, Mum looked after what was cooking. . It's the preparation that takes so long in Chinese cooking. Mm. Well there's so many different bits to it isn't there? That's the trouble. When I do a Chinese meal It's just having everything there. Yeah. There's so many bits of sauce and I spent about two hours measuring out all the different things. Then I put labels on about every single pot I could find that's got all these various mixes in. And I've got sort of like sweet and sour with prawns sort of er raising mix for something else. Oh gosh. That's what I don't like with Chinese, erm, everything's so complicated. So what you do is It's part of the cooking. yeah. You just shove everything in a pan. Do you go out to restaurants for a Chinese meal That's what, you know when I did that er Chinese bolognese thing. what? at all? We used to,. Do you remember when I did that Chinese bolognese thing? I made half of that up. Mm. But I got the main thing off a,off a TV programme. But I couldn't get, I didn't get it all down. So you made up the rest? So I made up the rest and everyone liked it. You actually need a bigger kitchen to cook Chinese. Yeah. Because you need to set everything out. Like I did, when I did it I just put it back well I put it back , got that, put a bit of that in. Put a bit of everything in apart from the vegetables which I knew what to put in. I don't think you'd like me doing that Alex? You complain as it is about the number of dishes I use. Mm. I could imagine if I did Chinese I don't use that many dishes when I do Chinese. I don't . I just put little drops . We have the same argument in this household. Mhm. You have the what? Same argument in this household. Well I can use one bowl, but I don't I use two. Never use five bowls if one will do. When it's like pancake mix I tend, or omelettes I tend to use two bowls and even though I only really need to use one. Well that's silly. Why do you do that? Where is then? oh yeah. Do you want some more white wine mum? Erm, a wee bit then, thank you. What time do you have to go back to school Alexander? Eight. Seven. It's eight. It was six other days. Eight. Where are you going? Do you mind sitting down till you've erm finished, old chap. Sorry They're all clean in there then. Yeah, I know. I'll leave you to it. Shall I make some custard? O K You can. That pie thing. And we'll eat bread pudding bread pudding . Do you want warm bread pudding? I suppose so. Just because it's not warm it doesn't mean you can't have custard with it. Well if you At school we have cold pudding with custard. then I'll have to wash a saucepan. Oh dear, you won't like that Alexander. It's not very difficult, you've got one that you've done carrots in. Just have a quick slosh, well hardly even needs a slosh round does it? You don't have to tell them. It's got, there'll be a carrot flavouring in it. That's alright. You hate carrot cake or whatever it is. Eh. Sorry I just ripped all the buttons off me shirt. You'd better not. Do you really think I'd rip the buttons of me shirt? I believe you'd do anything. Thanks. Do you want bubbles? There you go. Oh, it's nice and sunny out. Yes. And as soon as we finish it'll go and get dark again. Well don't worry dear it won't matter to you what the weather's like for the next week will it? Yes it will. Why not? I've got to do javelin and I don't like going down there in the wet. When have you got to do javelin? Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday. But you've got all your revision to do. I know. I also have a games lesson Tuesday and Thursday mum. I also have an extremely important athletics meeting on Saturday. Oh dear. We ought to be coming to see that. They go at the senior school Mermy He doesn't know where it is. They don't go at se with the senior schools. Mum. Yeah. Do I ? No. Just one. Mm? What's this your thing on Saturday Alex? Yeah. Mm. No, they er I heard someone say that though they sort of actively encourage the use of to go to see many things like sort of sport days, erm . The main school has a much better sports day though. They have it after speech day. So they have half a speech day Yes. They have speech day on the Saturday morning that the ball is on. How was the ball? Alright Oh yeah. I forgot about that. Did you have a good nosh? It was boring wasn't it? boring. Was it boring? It wasn't boring but it was, just, I mean you know they're sitting five hundred people all at one go and it's Boring. I still can't believe It wasn't a boring night though. They get fifteen thousand pounds and they don't make anything from it. But it wasn't boring to watch though mum. No idea what . I've no idea at all. But I'm sure if they were the organizers entirely organized. Mum? I didn't think it was But I'm sure if they could make a profit they would. I didn't find it boring. Why did you get out of it? No Don't make too much custard Alexander, cos I'll . I just went to Mike and Rob 's house and my friends. And we just mucked about until four in the morning. Say that again? They just mucked about until four in the morning. By which time we were all fast asleep in our little beds. No you weren't! You came home at four in the morning. Did not! I was home here in bed and asleep at half past three. Yes. And I can vouch for that. We didn't get to sleep until about three then. That was the night I couldn't sleep We got to sleep what, about an hour after you went. Yeah, half past three. Af after you got, after you got to erm I know what time you went to sleep because Rob's dad came in, or his mum hammered on the door and said cut it out lads, go to sleep. No they didn't. So they stayed overnight then Yes, yes. Oh that must have been when I smacked my nose on my Walkman. What you stayed here? stayed at his friends' house. No, no, no. He stayed at Bob's house, Rob's. Cos he lives about a quarter of a mile away from the school. Ah. Not that. He actually What's his name? Rob, Robert. Good guy isn't he, Alex? Yeah. Yes. That was delicious. Mm. Very nice. Very nice chef. He says, what is he, second row prop Alexander? No he's not he's a hooker. Oh he's a hooker. A hooker? Hooker. Yeah. Oh dear, dear. He does. He's a . They all had carrots in your er Right dad? Help you see in the dark. have you not finished? Mm. I have really. Sorry I just sort of Have another one. Have a crunchy potato? Have a carrot. How do they go on in the senior school. Do they still have the under fourteens, under fifteens? Oh yes. Oh yes, yes. But then, the, Alex thinks there's a whole lot more boys joining, joining the school. Joining the school? Yeah. I wasn't aware there was. What would you do if I set fire to the new, to the shirt? It does seem a shame to leave I'd set fire to you Who was going to have that? You have it. It's too late now I've got . I wasn't going to have it. I said The next time I see you you'll be saying why did I eat all that Stop, stop. ooh, I've got indigestion. Where are you going with it? Put in Just leave it You all know who he takes after don't you? Mum I've that thing with a hole in it. That's your head. Stop. see if it's still going round. Oh yes it is. What? It's a thing with a hole in it. Yes, it needs washing. Yeah but you don't use . Don't use that for a creme caramel. That's what you said you were going to use. No, no, no. I thought I had a mould. With a hole in it. That, that, that was sort of Like slug. Yes. Oh. Is it good? I've got a better one. That thing will always be a slug now won't it? Mm. Who called it the slug? Alexander. I can't remember ever, have you the name? Sort of a er orangy chocolate mousse. Yes. But it was only because it was done in er er I think. Yes, yes. What's the chart up on the board? That's young chart actually. But he uses, uses it for everything you know. Like a diary? Yeah, like a diary. It's all in, I mean the days are down from the top to the bottom. Mm. It goes along for twelve months. Oh right. And the days go down and I think that there's numbers at the bottom. I was waiting for somebody to pass the creme caramel out of the fridge. I can't because Wh , Why do you want it? Oh no I'm not sure. Yes it is. Twelve months . Twelve months, yes, yes. That's right yes. And various There we are knowing my luck it won't come out. Do you have to dip it in hot water or something? Well no it's creme caramel, is that creme caramel or proper creme caramel? You're not supposed to ask those sort of questions dad. Well. No. No it's only because we made some on holiday when we went to Oh yes, yes. Switzerland. Some man, he said oh, he made it all sort of proper. Oh I can make it all proper. Not that you haven't done it You know instead of tipping it over which would probably help I'd put that put that on top and put the two over together. Well done. There. Now you've got a problem. Hit it with a spoon. Not hard enough to break the dish Yes I do think you need to why don't you just try dishing it up out of the thing? You're never going to get that out. Yes I am. All you've got to do is get rid of the air. Like that. Ah. Oh clever dick, oh the clever trousers. Very good. Creme caramel and custard. I've never used that before. You've had it for a few years too. Well that's one. Would everybody like lumpy custard? You're not supposed to make lumpy custard. You make very very good custard normally. No. Custard with no lumps. You've made lumpy custard you can eat it. O K. I don't know what happened. lumpy custard. Oh sorry. made lumpy custard. I thought everybody liked it. I know dad does . No, I'm just putting some so if it all ends up thrown away Oh Sue that is dreadful. I know. It won't get thrown away. That is dreadful. get thrown away always ends up getting thrown away. No it doesn't. I'll eat it. It goes in the fridge for about four days. No it doesn't I jack it out sometimes. I throw it away straight away these days. Oh John that is such a terrible waste. Well what, what are you going to do with it? It's making too much to start with. Make cauliflower cheese with that. Precisely. I'll make myself some cauliflower cheese tomorrow morning. Why don't you just cut it all up and put a curry sauce over it? And have curried vegetables. Delicious. I'll have cauliflower cheese tomorrow er lunchtime. With the cauliflower. The rest you can fry up in the evening and have it with your cold beef. Exactly. I did . It's hard to pour out. Yeah. That is dreadful. I mean they're all usable. Can somebody pass me a towel please? Well what happened Yes but you see when you get out of here about seven times between half past six and eight o'clock at night Well you ha at least haven't got to do vegetables have you? I mean they're already done for you. Just reheat those and you're off and away. I like to have a lot of vegetables left over. I can have them fried the next day. What will we do with it? Apart from me. Er.. Well generally there's, there's only three of us here There's your custard lad. Oh lumpy! It's not. You said so. No. I said does anybody like it. Oh. Did I actually say the words does anybody You said I I said does anybody like lumpy custard. That's right. Does that mean that I've made lumpy custard? Yes. Why? Well because lumpy Did I actually say I ? Well no you didn't actually say but one would presume from that that that's what you were getting. What you should have said is I hope everybody likes lumpy custard. Well the trouble with making it in a jar is you don't get much skin do you? If you put it in a basin then you can sort of Yeah but the sk skin's thicker. Well yeah that's true. Mm. custard, oh look lumps. Very true. We're deprived these days. Eh? Pardon? . Cold bread pudding. Yeah. It's nice. Can you eat it hot? mum's done it in a sweater then it Should have slipped it in the erm in the oven. You nearly said the microwave didn't you? I nearly said the microwave, but in the oven. The other thing's behind next to the erm scales. Er how did you manage to get two sides of that so perfectly straight? Well I'll get the cream out. What that? Oh yes it was in thing. I'll divide it up between three of us. other erm thing, whatever it is. Thing? Oh it's your bread pudding, I see. Yeah. I made one yesterday in a meat tin and so Lynn had a lump and I got a lump and you here. Would anybody like some of this? We've got four, four puddings here aren't there? What is it? Baked jam roll . Mincemeat. burnt it. Sorry. No, no, no, crispy, crunchy. Who'd like what? Me please. I'd like a piece of Gran's thing to start with. I'll have some of that. Well that's not fair Alexander is it? Your mother said who wants what. Alexander said and Fred got served first. Well, I'm sorry. Oh sorry, yes. She was trying to get rid of this that's why. Young people have got to stand up for their rights Alexander. It's my favourite. I didn't get the cream. Oh yeah I'll get the cream. I mean I read according to the paper this morning young people have got to have a elders and betters and all that. That's true. Young people have got to what? Stand up to their, have a say. You've got to listen. Yeah. Nobody listens to the young Well why not? Ah Ah, since when does nobody listen to you? At school they don't anyway. Ah Since when did they ever? I'll have a piece of that please. What do you mean? Nobody will want custard Nobody wants custard. You even you're not having custard. I know but but eat custard with meringue. Why not? It makes the meringue go all weird. Does anybody want custard? John do you want this? No I'll have some of that please. I'll have some of that too please. I'll have some of nan's bread pudding I think.. Take that back to school. ought to do is to eat the things that he's saying that nobody wants. I think they are actually. They're just trying to prove you What are you going to have nan? I'm going to have some cream please. Ah I'll take it to school. tart. You've got treacle bites. They don't have a lot of that there. bread pudding as well. Have a lot of what left? You didn't want . Who wants the custard? John? Don't you want custard granddad? Yes I'm having custard.. Ah. The skin's gone. Fred! No John . Alec? Custard? No thank you. Oh dear Oh. Oh shame. No it's alright, that's alright. I'll save you the rest Fred's been looking I don't, no I haven't , I don't worry about it. It's alright. I'll save the rest of it for you. Thank you Alec. out there. long time. Must be like that . No I've come to the conclusion that we're deprived these days. We don't have any sweets much. But you're always having sweets. No. When people come but otherwise we're deprived. Have a banana after . a banana. There was me thinking that you always . Well it depends. I think We had this really nice Danish apple bar that I did last night. In the where? A Danish apple bar. Oh really? Mm. Who said this was burnt? The pastry is a little crispy but Very nice. Yes very nice. Bottom of the meringue is . Do you make many jellies? I haven't had a jelly for ages and I got one from Sainsbury's. A lemon jelly. And I actually did it in a plastic basin. And it has stained it so badly. And I think well what do they put in this type of thing and it really wasn't that good was it? The basin or the jelly? Both. I, I thought. I don't know the things you eat with that much colouring in it erm No, John But she's done my jelly bowl. No, it wasn't a proper jelly bowl. jelly bowl or my jelly bowl . That's another thing you can't get now is very much is chocolate blancmange. We've got some. Well you can't in Sainsbury's. Yes we have. Not chocolate one we've not. Yes we have we've got some chocolate ones. Have we? Yes. How do you make then? That's chocolate and erm, you melt the chocolate and an orange jelly. Some blinking thing they're, they're needing for a er accents you know School custard's really weird. But we haven't You know. Some research project. Some sort of weird gross lumpy custard, very nice. Are you, I mean the erm We, we haven't got accents as such have we? No. Oh, well we have but it's a London I don't think you well a month now, I mean cotton is a natural . Yeah that's right but I mean we're just a south east London I don't think sort of accent. Well I, I would call it south London. I would. Well alright then. Anyway, call it south London. It's certainly not a north London accent. The north London accent is exactly the same I used to live there for years. Did you? Oh. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Well I lived in north east London. Well it depends where you're, where you're going . in Scotland Oh to Scotland. Now there are treacle bites. I'll home. What's that treacle thing that we got from you the other day? That had to be kept in the fridge . I don't think so. It was a toffee tart? Whatever it was. Why? I just wondered whether it was Yes. What John? It was in the fridge and the dog. The fridge and the dog? Was it that popular? It was, it was very nice except that Fred had a piece and left the last couple of slices in the tin on the side and the dog took a shine to it so it was in a tin and then in the dog. you can't blame the dog for that. Well as far as I'm concerned it was the dog on the side. Treacle pie was beautiful. Was it? Mm. Very good. I don't know why I don't eat it more often. custard. Nothing. custard? No. caramel it was sort of sludge. Dirty brown sludge. He used to do that to me at Sunday lunchtime. He used to sit and say all sorts of terrible things. eat their dinner. I mean, he'd put his elbows on the table because we had the kitchen table . look at your father. Sue. I will have a little piece of that lemon pie. I'll have a very small piece. That's it. . Cos we, at lunchtime we have trays and we have six to a table, we have three up the side and one on the end. And sometimes it's pretty hard to get the one on the end in because they've, you've got jugs and things, and so you're pushing them all up. We couldn't get him and he had about this much off. And he came and he had a massive full plate of rice and curry and then he had custard and gooseberry pie sort of thing. And he came in and sat down and put his elbows on the edge of his tray and it all went whack over his blazer and it all slid down onto his trousers. And I was sitting up, up, say this is the head of the table I was sitting where mum is. And I saw it and everybody in the whole room saw it and burst out laughing cos it was so funny. Who was he? That did it. Well just sat down. What a nice guy. make a speech. Mm. William's on drums. On drums? Mm. Yes. What he's going to be a drummer? You don't have to go to Caterham school to become a drummer. Do you see that father with long hair and Yeah. Guitar. What is he then? I should think he's in the group, isn't he? Who? Oh no, no, Philip's father, no. Well perhaps he He looks like one of the you know Who was the man that gave the speech? Philip . The one with blond hair. Yes. Philip . Right. Well now his father His old man is, has got long blond hair but he's bald on top That's it, yeah. and he wears erm sort of grey cowboy boots. . Baggy clothes. And he's got a silver guitar on his lapel Yeah. But he's not a musician. He's a I always thought he was a jazz No he does, he does erm, er oh forgotten what you call it now. He designs buildings and windows and things. An architect. Well, he's a sort of architect. A quantity surveyor? Yeah. He doesn't design buildings But he designs windows. He designs certain bits on buildings like arches, and windows and things like that. He's got a very nice vehicle. It's like erm a Range Rover isn't it? Yeah. Big. Great big thing. Shogun sort of thing. So we sat there and we decided he was obviously a musician. He likes music but he's not a musician. He looks like and I, first of all when we saw him I thought who the hell is that, can't be a father cos look at him, he looks terrible. he looks terrible Did he come to the ball? Did he come to the ball Sue? should have seen dad. Did you see the one who kept running up and down in the weird hat? Taking photos. Well that's his, that's his tribal . Yes, didn't you see him? Oh what yes. Yes. He, he is a head of them, he head of the tribe. One of the main tribes of They don't call them they call them tribes or whatever it is . is French? Is it? And he er, well he's probably French. You see his dad is basically a king. A ki king, that's right. A king, a kingdom, so Richard's really a prince. Oh. Doesn't mean that father of his is a queen does it? Runs up and down screaming and jumping up and down. Well when did you see her? Oh she goes to matches. It's an embarrassment. You sort of creep into a corner and hope she doesn't see you. really nice. She's alright to say hello to but then One of the nicest mums there is. Yes she is. Well she's alright. I think she is too Alex. You don't actually want to stand next to her though do you? She is. When I was playing rugby and I hurt my thumb she actually lent me a very expensive Jaeger coat to keep me warm. She did and I got mud all over it . you can't stand any too much she's always on the move. She's nice. She comes to all the, all the football. Yes, she is, she's very nice but you don't actually want to, if you're on the, the touchline you don't want to stand next to her. Why? Well she's jumping up and down, she's screaming and laughing and shouting at people and hollering oh. That, that's what she goes there for. I think the worst thing is when their team at matches. They were losing and she knew they were going to lose and their last bloke was coming in and she was cheering them on. She was cheering them on. Ah we, we, her and I cheered on who, who, who couldn't score, he never, they never got a score. Oh was that Trinity? No, it wasn't Trinity, no. It was yeah they'd come quite a long way actually. Oh yeah, hang on, I can't think who they are but they came all the way . And we're all going out on the field going come on, very good, we're gonna beat your team, and we got our man and we scored about seven tries in the first three minutes. Oh not, hardly, not quite. It's a very rough game Alexander. Oh Alex's got some twenty seconds. telling you the rules. Tell daddy what they're changing. Oh they're going to change the rules that erm, you know there's two scrumhalfs start on their side of the scrum, well they can't come round to the other side. Cos you know you've got Yeah. in the centre of the scrum you've half and you've got So as long as you're behind the ball you can keep moving No. Well you, that's what you can do at the moment. Yeah but the new rules for our age group is you have half of the scrum and then you have the scrumhalf and he puts the ball in and he goes back to his side doesn't he? And the other scrumhalf and normally the other scrumhalf will come round and tackle him. Or push him off the ball or something Yes. As long as he stays, stays behind the ball then he's allowed to do that. Well they're not allowed to, they're not allowed to yeah but they're not allowed to do that any more. He can't, so he can't come No. And he can't, you can't do twist any more. Can't you? No. The number eight can't pick it up. Oh. And erm I can't remember what the other one is. Oh you can't push more than one point four metres or something or other. Oh my god! Do you take a tape measure with you? No but, so if you five minute scrum you can't push over You can't push . That's silly isn't it? yeah. The reason is you've got to take take out all the extra sort of strain All of the extra strain on the I suppose the trouble is yeah if you do push, if you do go for that the other side cos you just sort of push them into the What about when you Yeah! in a big mangled heap. what about when you, what about when you make the first row. Oh as soon as, as soon as you, about over fifteens er is normal rules. This is all under fifteen. The good thing about being in the scrum is when you push over and they all collapse and you fall on top of them. Or you stand there and you walk over them. Do they get as much pleasure about walking over you? No cos I normally hit back. What was this ? Tighthead prop. Who? Tighthead prop. I think that's tighthead prop. Prop forward. That's what it's called. I don't know much about rugby. Better than golf. four five days really. It's better than golf. Don't you like golf? No, boring. Golf? Yeah. golf Why do you say boring? I dunno. Golf is Have you actually played it? Yes. Lots. What golf? Not I'm not very good at it. Boring. Oh I see, as you're no good at it, it's boring. No, cos it's, you just watch somebody smack a ball as hard as they can with the one wood and see how far it goes. But you've got an objective, you've got to get it down a hole . Yeah, put it in a hole. Well yes I know but That's easy! look at the money they make, golfers. Yeah look at the money skateboarders make. Do you know how much, do you know how much the world champion earns in one year? No. He will earn something like seven million dollars. What, for skateboarding? Yes he does. You ought to see his house. This is America is it? He's got wooden hall, wooden lounge Doesn't allow any pedestrians. No pedestrians, no cars. Erm he's got three videos He skateboards all the way from the house he's got portable video TV little thing like er like the Sony ones on Virgin. He's got three TV's, computer video cameras, everything. He's got his own skateboard ramp in his back garden and he video tapes what he does so that he can watch what he's doing wrong and all the rest of it. And he's got these twenty nine twenty eight How ridiculous. On a skateboard. Why's it ridiculous? What's so wonderful about skateboarding? Well because he's very skilled. No I accept now that it's, it's extremely skilful. It's very skilful. It's just as skilful as most other sports. Just as skilful as skiing, and, and er ice skating though it's not phenomenal about sports It's just, you're just thinking that if there's anybody who skateboards just skates and like really ragged clothes because you're not exactly gonna go out wearing a suit skateboarding cos as soon as you fall off you you're gonna rip it to shreds aren't you? True. I cannot see skateboarding being sports. It's in the next Olympics. Oh yeah. they do it on these er they must be you know It's gonna be in the next Olympics. For speed, skating, slalom and round. And street style. Are all gonna be in the next Olympics. As much a sport as you could call erm Well I dare say but it's far more dignified to play golf . Oh what do you, you know erm that sort of thing. Why's it far more dignified? They're just stuck up normally. No they're not. Load of stuck up To play golf erm it's really quite Have I got to play golf? Well golf is, is hardly a sport, it's not in the, it's not like it's in the Olympics is it? No. No, it's a sport, but I mean it's erm Well to most people it's a pastime isn't it? Yeah. Pastime for ordinary golfers. What there's Nick Faldo, makes a lot of money at it anyway. Oh well, it's a sport for him, yes. But I say for most ordinary people who play it, it's a pastime. It's not easy hitting that little ball you know. Yes it is. It is not. It is. It is not. It is. It is not. It is, it is. I can even slice it and I've only played golf once. Oh I don't know. If you've got, if you've got a good eye there's nothing hard in hitting the ball. It's if it goes where you want it to that's hard. Precisely. Precisely. Well that applies to any, any sport, any kind of sport. Apart from cricket where you just smack it as hard as you can. I, I, I think there's an art to that as well. Yeah there is. I can play it, sort of. I dunno, cricket, cricket I can bowl, I'm quite a bowler. cricket is I'm extremely fast armed. Not very accurate. Well I, I can't, I don't bowl them out I have to bowl them about that far away from the wickets . So I get, if I get them on target I normally get a couple of wickets. Mm. Cos I'm really fast. Or I get an L B. Well he is at javelin, and what was the other thing he was throwing, the discus? Discus. No. It's shot. No, no, no the shot. I don't like shot. Oh the shot . Are you still doing that? No. Putting the shot. You were good. No. Didn't you come second in that? Yeah but I was just got out of it, not very good at it. Now I can't see any sense in throwing whatsit, the javelin. Now honestly We were just saying you ought to be good at that. Well I am. spear broke, you throw it at the ground. You don't you throw it at animals to kill them. Yeah but basically downwards all the time. Why can't you see the point in throwing a javelin? No I can't see much sport in that. I can't see you do it this year. Why not? Well I think it's a lot, there's a lot of What is it that, you know, it doesn't achieve anything does it? Well of course it does. It, it achieves just as much as softly doing hop skip and a jump. What's the difference? It, it achieves the same as somebody, somebody putting a ball in a hole with, with as least hits as he can. It achieves, it achieves as much as some, as somebody throwing a hammer. Or a shot. Oh yeah. Or jumping, jumping over an eight foot fence. Yes. Well they're not, erm are they? Can't tell the difference. I know, they're all the same. You wrap all those, all that lot up in one sort of, you know . Well I think it's very interesting. It it it it takes a lot of doing. Yeah it does. It's got a lot of skill in it actually. There's a lot of skill in it. There's a lot of skill in javelin throwing. It is. There's more skill in that than there is the discus. There is. Discus Might just as well make a good as well. Yes. There's a lot of skill in discus sonny, don't you forget it. Oh yeah there is actually. Oh shot put's probably the easiest to do. Shot put is more, is more Brute force. Brute force. Whereas javelin is a lot of skill I mean the hammer, the hammer is Surely javelin is brute force as well? Yeah but it's got to spill and spin right. It isn't brute, isn't javelin the same, it's brute force. No. Because however, however much brute force you put in, it's how you put through the javelin. It's how you put it through If you it as far as far as you can you've got to, when you throw javelin you've got to bring your arm through right, you've got to twist, you've got to make sure your wrist's tight you've got to keep your erm left foot planted. You've got to, oh you've just to keep it straight. It's very hard. Very, very . Alright then, alright then. You see you don't just, you don't just go like this technique in in playing golf. Yeah, there is a technique. That's alright then. Golf technique extremely easy. Yes but surely Alexander you're, you're only saying that er you don't er, the more you golf. Yeah I know but. I know that's all I said. I mean, the, you don't get many You do get youngsters as young as you they do, they do, by, by the time Yeah but it's no . Well they start, it it's the same way that er very young people er start playing snooker don't they? Well I play snooker. Time they get to about sixteen or seventeen you know they can be up in the top players. You certainly make money if you begin . Young people play bowls these days too. They don't make much money at it though . No, no. Bowls is a sport that they don't make much money. money I think it's the sport that counts. I know but I mean Yeah, it's not whether you win or lose , it's how you play the game. Oh dear. They make a few quid don't they at bowls? Well they do cheat or not. No guys at the top what is it Tony Al Tony Alcock. Tony Alcock. But they don't win . Oh you cruel thing. Cruel? . It's a very rough sport. What is? I know it is. Rugby. I don't know why you play it. Cos I like hitting people. I like hitting my balls ugh. streak in you. Yeah well I take after my mum. Do you. Do you have er young boys at your school? Do they have to do all your bidding and fetching and carrying and things? No. They used to but they don't any more they've taken all that sort of brilliant stuff away. But they did that to me when I was their age and now as soon as I get to fourteen when when you can, when you can, when you could do that And now today it's not fair. Mm. . . No it's probably right that you don't bully the youngsters. Well, they did it to me. Yes, but you didn't like it did you? . N n . But they did it to everybody, it happened to everybody. . Except when you get there and they stop it. Yeah we're not even allowed to report them any more. Put them on the landing. No because it's just oh no you'll get them all cold. Where you ever put on the landing? Mhm. Often. What for? Hitting people normally. Hitting people? Yeah with my pillows. We had pillow fights. Bed slipper fights. Well you weren't the only one out on the landing then? No everybody was. There was probably more of you on the landing than there was There wasn't. But one night we tried to get the whole entire floor out on the landing. Well some of us swapped and the Gammas didn't want to do it. All the Alpha Betas and most of the Gammas were out on the landing and they ran out of room. And so they started putting people downstairs everywhere and shoving them in corners that nobody even . Are you sorry that your Mr 's leaving? No. Well I am a little bit. Oh. Was he nice to you, all you boys? Well he,, well, you know but just because he's leaving he he seems to think that he's got to upturn the, upturn the, upturn the term. And everything has gone to pot. I'm very surprised at that. Everything thing's gone all weird and nobody knows what's happening. They've changed all the things that used to be just because they know Like form twos always used to have an end of term leaving party. But now they're not just so all the people can have one because Mr and Mrs are leaving. Oh well. It was the form twos, the only thing that I, that they had to, they had to look forward to in the whole time they were there. And I've been there since Alpha and I every year I've looked out and watched the form twos. And now suddenly just as soon as I come to form twos they've taken that away. What you're in form two now? Yeah. They've taken all the privileges away. Ah. Is it only a temporary? No. We don't know. We don't have any teachers for about eighteen months. He does look like one. Have you seen him? No. Has he got a long brown habit on? No but he's got hair like one. He looks Yeah but you won't be in, you Alexander, will it? I know it's good. No. After, after er you break up in the summer? Yeah I know that's good. So next year form two can have their party? Ask if you can join them. No. Wouldn't want to mix with that bunch anyway. But you are one of them now. What, one of the form ones? Yeah I thought you were a form two? Yeah but Well what are the form ones like? Oh I see form ones will be form two next year. Right. load of rabble. Well, they're the same as you were last year aren't they? Well yeah I know. But that's how the form twos thought of us last year as well load of rabble. Yes. That one year can make such a difference can't it? school he'll be . Oh you're gonna be the rabble again, aren't you? I know, cool. I like being the rabble cos you never have any responsibilities. If you're form two they always look to you to, I mean we can't do our thing by ourselves but soon as something needs done, doing they look to us. Well there you are you're the responsible lot aren't you? I know but we can't do, we can't do anything apart from be told what to do by the teachers. We can't tell people what to do. Well that's right. You shouldn't have to. We're not allowed to wreak punishment apart from when our floor That I believe is right too, why should you? Why, because we were at, in Alpha and Beta and Gamma and form one we were always admitted punishment by form twos. Whatever they felt like they sort of They've never had people like barks or tells . No they're called alright isn't he? Yeah I know but he admitted a lot of punishments. Did he? Yes. I don't think your mum would like you sticking that . I was gonna say if you keep doing that you'll be getting some . Would you like to say . Yes. Present from mummy. dishwasher. Oh shall we go and sit in the other room while daddy finishes the washing up? Oh it's not fair that he did some did all the serious bits. You made the gravy. Well the rest . He didn't touch any of the rest of it. What's up with your dishwasher? It is, it is but what's there is just saucepans and things. Well, come on we'll go and sit in the other room. These cups have lasted they're three years older than you are. Where are you sitting, in here Alexander? Oh well you are aren't you? fire on. You are aren't you? Yeah I know. You're sitting in here. I know. Yeah I know this fire's on. Hello Mr thingy. You're bugged, you're bugged. Hello. I'm not bugged. You are. I'm not. I'm not bugged. Nothing bugs me, by anything at all, anything bugging me. I can't, I'm not annoyed by anything, right? Oh no alright well. I'm not being bugged. I'm not using bugged in that er, bugging in conversations. Oh. Oh. Are you going that rugby tour,on the edge of somewhere? Yeah. Well it's not a tour, it's a, like lessons. Oh. Where is that then? It's a rugby school in Stow. In where? Stow. Oh at Stow School? Yeah. Oh. They do cricket there as well. My mate John hasn't heard anything from them yet. How many of you going? Five. Where you picked to go or No. No no they had to play. No no just something that some of us wanted to do. It's nothing to do with the school. Nothing to do with school. Oh I see. No no it just Rob's . Yeah. And so is Richard . That will be interesting isn't it? Yeah. got, got fair old rugby players interested I think. Mm. won the grand slam . Oh . Well does he run it then? Well. He goes there so he gives you advice that sort of thing? Well I think that he's got some educational interest. There's one or two other old you know erm . I think probably he organizes . Coaching school and Oh yes. they, they don't play much. No. . Well I don't know what does for a living or does for a living. was injured . Mm. before they had the goals. Oh I don't know, I I don't follow rugby to that extent. No. That school like, Alexander goes to I mean it's a good place to go to isn't it? If you can afford to send your kids there. I would say there was more going on, going for them isn't there than Oh yes, yes. than the old comprehensive schools. Some are better than others of course but er I think that a big advantage if you wanting to get in very large areas like London and Birmingham. I think that if the schools, I don't suppose that kind of thing but erm, I mean the schools out in Surrey and all erm places like that. When you get down there they're much much better than Oh yes. I mean we have a local school, Hayes School which is a very good comprehensive Mm. All the comprehensives. and everybody But I don't think parts of Croydon, south of Croydon, Birmingham they're much better down there. I mean people move in to Hayes specially so that their kids can go there. Yes. I think generally speaking you erm schools out in the country are better. Oh yes. Mm Cos then you It's O K if your headmasters that run the school change I mean schools tend to change with headmasters don't they? Cos it'd be, I mean a big disadvantage to a lot of particular schools around this area is the number of erm Asian and Yes. erm Indian. I mean, they, they probably don't speak English and they're at at a disadvantage to start off with. Yes. Which again is holding the others back. Yes, yes. changing headmasters at his school and they had a terrible reputation one time. Did it? Sorry. your black rucksack? My black The one that was in, in the other room? Yeah. Well I put it in the hall Yeah. behind the hall stand but mummy must have shifted it cos, shifted it with that er that bag of hers so I should ask mummy where it is. Cos it was, I put it behind the hall stand. O K. But they had a new headmaster oh he's just retired, he's been there been there since Lynn was there when since she was since the er she's twice that age so I mean he must have been there eighteen years but when he went there he's er totally the school from the word go No, I got, I need to get some stuff out of the red one. and it changed out of all recognition. Now it's one of the, the best schools for miles around. Is he er is he due to retire or Ye yes he's just retired. He has just retired? There's been a new headmaster for the last year I think so I don't know what he Bath now What did you say? Well you might find as he's got a good, good disciplined school he'll Unless of course he's of the opposite Well yes have any discipline do as they like. Mm. All go to school in uniform and you know Mm. I think that they should actually. Yes. Except the sixth form, they can Well no, well, well of course Alexander's school see next year he er he's gotta wear black and you know a black suit. Well Yes a dark, very dark grey suit. But there's no insignia on it. Isn't there? No no, no. They wear the tie. Mm. But not even next year when he goes to school? I don't think so, no I'll ask him when he comes down. I don't think so. Think they did away with the green Oh. the, the the green erm coats when they er, when they go up to the main school. They have er black ones don't they? Well they er sort of that or very dark grey . Are there? Very er Oh like charcoal? Charcoal grey . Oh. Try out this chair. Mi mi mind you don't hit the television. That's what Alexander . No you're alright there. I'm not gonna rock too much but I'm blocking the fire from you over there that's the only thing. No you're not, don't worry about that . Aren't you cold? No. Good grief. What with this woolly on. I'll never Even so. still cold? Mm. Well you probably find that you're getting a draught under that that door. It's a big gap. I'm freezing. Oh . What've you done? No you get a terrific er draught under that door. If you've got, if you've got this one shut you don't get it. Ah. Actually this is a very warm room I think, this one. Mm. Even in winter you know More so than the front. more so than the front room or the well the front room's good when you get a bit of you know when the you've got the sun. Mm. But in very cold weather it's er Well I think that er having that conservatory there makes This room's quite warm isn't it? Well is a room with no heating. I can't believe this second of June's so cold. Dear me. Very unfair isn't it? You haven't still got the gas going have you in there Sue? Yes it is gas, it's a gas fire. It's a gas fire. Oh is it a gas fire? Mm. Oh I thought it was a real fire. No it's very good isn't it? Yeah Needs cleaning out, it needs cleaning. Cos I thought to myself Well now we don't Do you know where the other things are? Those other coals? They're somewhere in the back end, right down the far end This is what we wanted wasn't it? But we couldn't get it because the no gas. There's no gas there. Isn't there no gas where you are? Not in the lounge . Not where . Oh I see. You've got gas Have you got solid floors as well? Yes. Well yes. Yes it's erm well when you say solid floor we've got all tongued and grooved boards. Oh you could get under there. Yeah I know, we didn't want to have all our boards up to No, well you'd only have to, you'd only have to take one board up maybe two. Another one to pull it up. You'd only have to take two boards up out of the lot. But I thought there was a gas tap there you know? Well we put carpet down and couldn't find any place . I mean they don't take they only take a board up where they put it on to erm put it leading through and er where they bring it out. We've got an electric fire now so Mm. Anyway it's not much different is it? Oh there's a lot of difference. Is there? Well I mean look at that that looks like a real fire. Oh that does look like a real fire yeah. You know it makes such a difference I think. But you can get, you can get . I'm not sure there's all that the, the log type are are quite so good. Haven't seen them. I don't know. Actually th no, they're not. They're not Lynn's got a log one hasn't she? Yes you you go But this looks This looks like coal, that looks like coal Well this this fooled me. Yes. The log ones at first as you go in they do but you get no smoke from them and from logs you would always get smoke. Mm. But you don't always get smoke from a, although if you put that low you get smoke from it don't you? very good. It is. Mind you're still got, still getting a lot of heat going up the old chimney aren't you? It warms Alexander's bedroom. Oh well it does some good. Right I suppose I'd better go and pour this coffee. Where is it? coffee. Susan! John these are cigarettes that I bought six, seven months ago. I know why I didn't Are they the ones that were outside? No no. Oh no. They can't deteriorate. they're just dreadful cigarettes. I bought them because they had I bought them oh I think it was when I went with Val to Kessler long weekend Mm. and we were on our way out and they were selling these and the girl said that they're very similar to Benson and Hedges but they're much milder. They're so mild there's nobody smoking them. So I said O K I'll buy them. But I, but it's not that they're mild, it's just that I don't like the flavour, the taste of them is just dreadful they just taste awful. So I've never smoked them, I've got about a hundred upstairs Really! and the other night I thought this is ridiculous I'll smoke these there's nothing really wrong with them. Why don't you give them to somebody for a present? Yes. Get somebody you don't, somebody you don't like. No if somebody wants to give up smoking. Say what do you wanna give up smoking try these. I mean they'll, they'll try one of those and give it up. If you put that ashtray over there dad and you'll . Do you want to take this with you? Cos I don't want it. Are you sure Fred? I mean you want to Yes I don't want it. Oh no where I know that one. I don't like to swear to find it. Well anyway you can't you walk through the main street of erm of Bakewell you can't miss it. John. Will it pick everything up? It should pick it up yes. They carried it away every year, but eh, I mean it's be in the room it should pick it up. Forty five minutes one side of the tape is Market research . Yeah. Well that's just to show people, you know, it wasn't so bad. They did tape conversation detail when . . Picked that up as well will it? Oh yes, pick anything up in the room I think, you know, that's reasonable loud, not to worry we were talking, talking about Shetland's Lowe weren't we? Shetland's Lowe, yeah. Yeah . Haven't you ever been up, you've never been up there? I, no, I've never been round much. Well no, we always, we always high. We always went the other way didn't we? Into erm Which , which you can come up through through the Ambridge Danbridge or you can come up Danbridge in the up to Wolvercloth, yes, but I've never been, it's the first time I've ever been anywhere near the shopping But, that where we went to that pub that time with Geoff, that's the first time I've been up there. I can't remember the name of that pub, I can't remember the names of anything I forgotten the name but in the hollow, in the yes, a very narrow valley, just in the hollow Yes. It's in the . I gave them a right across Cheshire from that. Yeah, and there's a nice little erm, stream runs through the valley. It's over that forest, what'll they call it? Macclesfield forest. Macclesfield forest, yes. Well Macclesfield forest is the other side of Shuttlings Road, do way the pub, pub is Yes, the other side of the road. To where eh Wilbur club, that's Wilbur club, that erm, the Wilbur club, cos we You're really not far from Swithen there. From where? Swithen, we know, you're not far. Well Danbridge, yes That's Swithen is just down It's Weathernly as it's more or less. No it's Danbridge. Back of Danbridge, back of Danbridge, that's right. Yeah. that of body of whatever it was who where there have left. Sir lived there. yes , ah sold it but, it went to us, some eh, either Indian or Buddhist erm Oh did he? Yeah, Buddhist religious group, but they, no they've eh, apparently it's been sold again now. It's not, they haven't got it anymore. What was the name of that place at Broadhurst something Hall? Swithinly Hall, isn't it? Swithinly Hall ah. But it was a nice walk. When, when you come to think about it, around in that area. I like that side of the steep ditch there. There's always the Tulip valley there. Yeah Tulip valley. Ditch and Consul. Consul. It's They've got a big eh, what, erm,park there now, country park. Has it got, got over the who? The Consul. But on the other side you've got Dovedale and Manifold Don't know , oh Dovedale is one of the, one, one of the prettiest Dales in England I think, and eh the Manifold. It doesn't seem to vanish as much as it used to. Mm. Doesn't seem to vanish as much as it used to, the Manifold, used to be dry in places most of the summer. It goes underground. I know it goes underground, but it doesn't seem to so much these days. Doesn't it? No, why I haven't seen it for dry down there for years. Of course. Contact why . Yes, well I like Eadales too. No,Loinshendale isn't it? Stop, stop . Yeah, Walscott . Walscott Dale, yeah. That's erm. That one's in Col just outside, we used to go there. From Colchester. Oh that's erm Ain't that one of Constable's? Yes, it some Constable that come too . Oh. It's a isn't he? If it's the one that goes through Colchester. No,, didn't got through Colchester. Oh it's not the ? No, it's not. No, no. Tomorrow . Ah yes, going up towards the er, towards the, not the Baddens the erm , well he was up the side of the . Yeah I had some good times around Norwich, when I was on travelling order job. Good town Norwich. It's got a pub for every week of the year, no, wrong, it's got a, it's got a church for every week in the year and a pub for every day in the year. What Norwich? Yes, three hundred and sixty odd pubs in Norwich. We had the used to go to Norwich on. Me and an aunt, just outside Norwich we used to go up for Sunday dinner it was very nice along the river there, and a, I thought the very nice part of cathedral, there's a cathedral lies very low it had some very nice erm, mm, what you call it, close, is it ? very low. Close, erm . They had some lovely in the cathedral. Very peaceful too, down, down there. since I was round there. cos it was the fifties when I was there. Oh, I've been with Joyce since then, when had, used to live at Southwold, or near Southwold,and eh, we used to go there and she, she got killed where all the , she had a, a garden wall of felt sort of Fred Flintstone one, and there was a bend on the Ipswich erm, oh Ipswich Lowestoft road, right where she had this cottage Oh yeah. and some car came through out of control, went straight into the wall, the wall collapsed on top of her and killed her. Oh she was, well, she was over sixty, she'd retired, was about sixty five. Nice woman, she was a . I don't really know her name, oh eh, oh, no she married and she . Trying to think the name of the place. She was always called Mac. Eh? She was always called Mac. she was Mac something no I, no I tell you, I tell you what that reminds me of, you know the little, I don't know if you do, if you walk along the canal towards Berkhamstead, by a lock Oh yes, I . There's a pub that's very similar in constructions to that, that lies low beside the lock. It's on just across the where, where the bridge . You cross where the little bridge goes, you've got a little bridge like that. Mm. Because you've got, I don't think cars can cross it, or if it'll lift up. Yes, that's a lift up bridge. A lift up bridge that's right. Mm. Yes, it's over the canal. Over the canal, yes. Mm, but it, that, that reminds me of that, not exactly the same, it's a very similar, very similar building, a long sloping roof, not very high building. Isn't that, isn't that second isn't he, with a, a, a ? Who is? , isn't it? It's a, a little river . Stour. Stour, Stewer, S T O U R the river Stour. Oh, Stour, the river Stour , yeah, eh, erm, that looks as if he's that looks as if is Ain't he got a longboat there, by the side of the trees? Yeah. Yeah. These are all reeds along here, that's the cottage. Yeah , yeah. Is it here, or is it there? , I think it's I've got it upstairs. Well don't go wandering off looking for it Mick, you're alright. Flatford Bridge. Oh Flatford Bridge. And Flatford Mill is just up, Flatford Mill is just along the river there. Mm very well then. pardon. That light doesn't show up much, never mind it ain't . get away from Colchester you know that don't you? No, really . Seven or eight miles I should think. Mm. We used to go there often. Mm. make it ruddy well . Oh on the motorbike, yeah. I eh, we used to go out to the West Mersea a lot, during the summer, you know, when it, when I was at Colchester doing, mm, swimming, nice swimming and eh,. Didn't know there was a big swimming pool at Colchester. Oh there was yeah, a big open air one. Mm, in, on Abbey Fields wasn't it? Oh no, the Abbey Fields one was an army one wasn't it? Oh army one, yeah. There was a big one, down, down by the river Cole, right down the There was a bigger one down by the river, down North Hill wasn't it? Yes, down North Hill along the flat, you know? A flat bit along the bottom. Mm. It was a . What a great big round what a great big roundabout there now. Is there? Oh yes, tis on the Clapton Road. Well that was a lovely swimming pool that, that Colchester one, you know, the pri the private one. It was wasn't it? Abbey Fields you see they use to use it. the army one. Eh that's it that , yes but eh the , cricket team use to play there on occasions. . Use to have all the parades out there didn't they? Yes, oh yeah. In the summer. Oh yeah. Use to do the troop trooping of the colour out there. Trooping of the colour out there yeah Mm. There were a long way from . I was only You were round, round to the side of Colchester more or less. I went there about June, I had to go to about June nineteen thirty one. Buckerown. Buckerown, yeah. We were Buckerown top . I went there about Yeah, you went there, you, you went June thirty one, and I, I eh,friend here in October thirty two. You er deserted in October didn't you? October thirty two. Thirty two, yeah. Well I went to Colchester at thirty two. You, yes, I know you were there, when I, before I left, for a couple of months. Only you're . Only just, yes. About a couple of weeks and you were off. Well a couple of weeks and I was off on embarkation leave, and then I was back for about a week and we were gone. I think we sa I think we sailed early October, or early October, I think I run out, I think we land . Cos I went down to Colchester in the July,in the July. Yes that's right, yeah. I think we landed, like I think we landed at Bombay about twenty first of October, something like that. The first week I was at college straight out to test . And I sailed from Bombay on the eleventh November Mm. Nineteen thirty seven. Funny thing that, eleventh November has always been, I docked at Liverpool coming back from North Africa on the eleventh on the Good Friday I docked there, no, I'd, I, no, no I docked at Liverpool coming back from India, that was about eh the eleventh we sailed from Bombay, that was about the twenty fourth I think. Do we were on a boat, went down to , we came a lot quicker. Fifteen days, I remember, I remember getting to Leek. Do you? Remember getting to Leek, I'd got no overcoat had I, has he got eh, cos we had uniform then, and I got a set, a civvy suit, you know? We handed our uniforms in Oh yes, there's the . when we got to the depot and eh, I came up in civvies, it was a light civvies suit, cos it what I had in India. Where was that from Colchester? No, no, no, no, depot, my depot Hounslow. Hounslow. depot. Was there a depot at Hounslow? Yes, it was a depot for years, then they went back to the Tower of London, where they were formed, the Tower of London. I was thinking they're, they're at Tower now. No, there are at Tower now, they were raised in the Tower, but they eh, I don't know when they moved, they moved to a the depot at a Oh of course it was at Hounslow wasn't it? Hounslow, yeah, yeah. Well I was at when all the blokes , did the trading with Yeah. They went to the s School of Signals in the where they learnt to be operators. Ah yes. Yes. And I went into the workshops in the depot. Yeah. And I was in there until I left Colchester, but what, what happened, you see when you first go in they only class you as a a class three tradesman. That's right, yeah. And then, after I've been in the workshops about a month, a foreman, a foreman of Signals came and they said oh we can get you regraded, you have to go to the Ordnance see, had to go to the Ordnance get reclassified. Yes. And then, in the, I think it was the June, I came down to Colchester, and as soon as I got to Colchester the old adjutant nurse said oh you, going for a a B one qualification, and I had to go to Colchester to the Ordnance , it, it, it was an Ordnance workshops I suppose that was what it was. Well, yes And I had a test , and the old Colonel and Colchester came to see now and how you're getting on, he was, just about retiring he wanted a different desk in his office. Ah yeah. And I make his desk as a desk. He knew what he was doing,take it with him. Course he did, he was retiring shortly after. Oh dear. Well, what, what's the use of being a boss if you can't fiddle a . Oh they use to, everybody was afraid of him, but I got on very well with him. I went to see our mate in drawing and this Well a lot , I found a lot of blokes in the infantry they were so scared of some of the officers and I I don't, no, I don't think no trouble with them. You all so easily forget these names now, oh I don't remember it, but the other, oh I remember old , eh mate of , he was second in command when I was in India, and he, he, he was a right character, he was a right chara member of the . a right character old was. , up to Colchester was Captain and I did a lot of work at his . I was . And his wife was understudy. Oh yeah, yes, when I went, when I went to a, when I was in India I went to have a, cos I went, I went, I was in the singles section then,in Colchester, and I went out, and I went, not I went to a licence agent first,and then I went to the headquarters , Signals there, and the bloke I remembered best of all, I think, was oh Cakey , his name was and his initials were Cakey. ? Yeah. Oh he came from an old, I think he came from a very old er, there was, there was a General ,first world war, erm, well the last time I heard anything about Cake, well, he was, he'd, he'd left the Signals section, he was the when I left India, and the last time I heard anything about him, I read it in, in a paper in erm, when the troubles were on and he was brig brigadier in charge of an infantry brigade, about my age, well, a, probably a year or two older than me, cos he was a, yeah he was a lieutenant when I got out there a full lieutenant, so he must of been a captain. A sort of thing, before he got to Colchester he did a lot of work in his quarters , he had about four daughters. Yeah, oh blimey. Oh dear, they all use to pull my blue leg when I was with them working, oh Old Sergeant name his name was, he was the M section, maintenance section in the Signals, M section, old , Sergeant Yeah. But eh,. The first I ever sent He was a nice . first time I ever one, was old Freddie and I'd, I'd only been to depot . his name was. Yeah, yeah. I'll never forget old , about two days I'd been there, and I'm going across the square and I see this bloke with sombreal on, so I did flung him up a salute cos that was wrong, he says come here he says don't salute me. Don't salute me. Call me sir, but you don't salute me. He was actually a nice bloke though old Freddie Yeah, he finished up in the eh, Beefeaters. Pardon? He finished up in the Beefeaters. Did he? Oh yeah. The Tower of London. Well I knew, when I was in, when we were at Donnington, living at Donnington, a couple of blokes I've known there's company sergeant majors and regimental sergeant majors in the Signals, I was walking through shed four, one day, I was doing, doing some mucking about with these folding boats for the RE's Yeah. and all that ruddy stuff,, I knew she'd come along and put all , use to be a, he was the R S A man for the Signals and old Reggie , he was another R S A, he was headquarters company and old was in the cable laid section for people you know,came loose , I was walking through the shed and these two, I saw these two put them down , and I thought what the hell are you doing here? And they'd been commissioned both of them. Yeah. Mm, they were quartermast commissioned. Oh yes, I . Well they . Regimental quartermasters, or whatever you think of, whatever, whatever they called in the Signals, in regiments, their regimental called them that. They're the same, yeah. No sergeants up there. Oh no they didn't I know what we use to call them, left hand and door cork, captain quartermaster. Left hand and quartermaster's? Yeah. We had, we had, generally a quartermaster but we had a one or, one or two captain quartermasters. They were on a course at Donnington. They were on a course at Donnington, they were living in , they invited me over, I said ooh , up to something Oh, one officer we had , was with me when we had that accident. Yeah, when, when I was in Egypt. When I was in Egypt, I, I, we had an officer there and eh, I . No, I was in Egypt this time, I'm talking about during the war. Oh no, I mean, when I, when I ask about . When I was in the Signals this was. Thirty six English. And I knew I know this bloke eh, when he was a sergeant I think, anyway he was an officer, and eh, said we go to Sheppeards, I said you silly devil I can't get into Sheppeards Hotel I'm a signal man I had to laugh he said, shame, he said cor,you're about my size, get stuck into one of my uniforms we had a couple of weekends at Sheppeards Hotel, we had a great time. Oh dear, yeah. Who was that contest,. I remember sitting in castle , you know what a steep bank it was. There was just enough bank, eh. Sitting on that bank, and I was sitting there when, another Watching all the girls go by. No, there were two women, two girls sitting lower down, they kept on turning round and laughing like hell, you see,said laughing at us, there's nothing behind us so we turned round and there's two jocks sitting there with their kilts . And the, and no breach on. Got their own barracks. Oh dear. And the army veterinary call were in the same barracks. Who where they? cos I we use to have to go down there and well at least our blokes use to go down there and do a picket Mm. in the veterinary call stables. They got quite well known down there. Yeah, second battalion Black Watch were there, we were the second battalion row . . The Black Watch were. Mostly to Egypt weren't they? Although there was a saying that they, was more, there was more Scots in the row of and more than, than, the, than English there was, there was more, more, more eh,than the black . No we didn't actually, we didn't have many, nearly all, nearly all the were . where we were , that they're going to rebuild, going to build it all the time I was there, but they never did build it,did they? You yeah, it was wasn't it? It was hot yes. I wonder if they've got any barracks there now? Oh I don't know. The last time I came through,Irene and I came through Colchester and we were going to Clacton. Mm. going to Clacton . Yeah, yeah. And I went up North Hill and, it's all altered. Yeah. And Abbey Fields, went round, we went round Abbey Fields and then came back onto the Clacton Road higher up, Colchester wasn't the same, they've done away with a lot of the high walls they had round Cos they . Mm. You know Irene and I had a holiday along there, we stayed at Frinton and then moved to Clacton. Mm. Sort of around and came back. Mm. Had about a week around there Mm, wasn't a bad town Colchester. Pardon? Wasn't a bad town, do you, alright Colchester, alright Use to like that park . What Castle park? Castle park, Abbey Fields was very nice, actually Castle Park,, reminds me a bit of St. Albans. Mm. St. Albans isn't unlike Unlike it. . Castle Park wasn't as big and it was much more, much more . Castle itself was all Roman. It's an all Roman castle, yes, yes. Square and er towers on the corner, but eh, I think Abbey Fields and er St. Albans are a bit like Castle Fields, but Yes. it's very much the same. Mm. Cos you go up to the Abbey there Yes that's right. and then there was that nice park in the bottom with the river going through it. Yes, that's right, that's St. Albans. And there was a street at the bottom of Castle Park yeah. Castle Park yeah, I don't know whether that was the or not. I suppose it was the . Yeah, but it wasn't, I mean it wasn't a big was it? Ooh it was , fifteen feet wide or something like that. Yeah, yeah Where did he run out into the sea, did he run out at Mersea? No Colchester you know, the came down, you know where we were at Hall? Yes. Came down, down the side there and then it went off, what was the name of the village fishing village there? It begins with a B, forgotten the name of it now. some village a, on the coast,can't think of the name with it, use to play football we did. Mhm. Use to play football weekends in this village. Forgotten the name of it. The Signal section. But you ran right out and it came out at erm, opposite Harwich. Oh yes, yeah, yeah. Shottle Islands . Yeah, yeah, ah yes, it went north then more or less, north east. Opposite Harwich, it run into Harwich. But those two rivers, it and then another one joined it. Yeah. And then they went to Harwich. What but it was, is a where we were, down through woods it was on here. Oh yes, I mean the . Drive and came alone the . Yeah, but the nearest seaside, the nearest sea to Colchester was Mersea. Mm, West Mersea. West Mersea, yeah. came out of West Mersea and Harwich was just across Just across yeah. Harwich and . Yes, West Mersea and the yes. The Cole and the Mersey joined it, used to be Mersea beach. We used to go swimming there a lot. We use to go, to go to Shottley. Our force team use to play against the boys at Shottley. And then our there when he was a youngster, when he first went in the Navy he did in Shottley, had a big you know, big the use of . I can remember hardly anybody's names that I served with in the Signal section in eh in Colchester, can't even remember the officer's name, the if people left somewhere erm, south of Colchester in Essex well it was quite quite and eh, he, we use to go out there and play, play a village team football, you know and have a, have a right have a right old do in the evenings. We use to have a, have a we use to go down to Shottley. Yeah. Use to have quite a day out there. Yeah. Oh yes, use to. Put the old village in West Mersea, we eh the pub at night. The student Mersea village and West Mersea. Mm, that's right it was Mersea village and West Mersea was the Along the River . Yes, then the other river came in from up Norfolk somewhere. I think that was the Mersea wasn't it? That was, that was the river Mersea wasn't it? No that was the Mersea that came down. Oh yeah, yeah oh, mm. Cor blimey, I'll think of these places these days. You know very rarely, oh very rarely think about Colchester now. if I was at Colchester with . Oh not , and you went to Canterbury didn't you? Went to Canterbury and I was only there twelve months. Mm. Canterbury and went on transfer to the R E, but Canterbury went to eh Were they in Crampton Barracks? Probably. Were they in Canterbury in the R E? You were in Canterbury, but I went to Brompton Barracks. What in London? To and eh Oh yeah, yeah. And then I go, go for a works force that's what I was on. Oh yeah. Mm. Mm But we use to down there. We had an officer , he was and price biscuit because Lieutenant , and he has two or three horses and he use to go hunting. Yeah , Mm. And there's, their crew was a bloke named ,, he was a Lancashire lad Mm. and he got same time as I did. Did he? He had a heart, heart . Oh he had a heart trouble. But eh, we use to, he use to at weekends, he use to take his horses to the hunts you see. Yeah. And he use to go in his car, and we use to ride the horses up to the and ride them back. Ride the horses, yeah. And he use to give us a couple of quid each. Did he? That was a lot of money in those days. Was wasn't it? A couple of quid in those days, most blokes don't get much more than that a week did they? horses. Oh well yeah. , see I got very pally with old ,, we use to play snooker together that's how I first met him and then we went there, and I never knew he'd been in the cos I transferred to the R E's you see. Mm. And er, I got,out and he came up to Leek. Did he? Leek out, had this heart trouble, and he'd been in the Signals about oh ten year, he , he was on for twelve engagement and he nearly completed it when he had this heart trouble. Oh yeah, yeah yeah. Cos he was in hospital and erm, that it . Was he? Cos I went to see him there. Oh. and I got back home, and somebody must have told him where we lived, he got my address from somewhere and he came up to see Irene and I. Mm. It was just after we got married,, and he was a Lancashire lad, he came from somewhere of the suburbs of Manchester, I've forgotten whereabouts he was Yeah. I don't think he lived long round these parts, when, when he came to leave Orington,. Mm oh dear. Oh, there was somewhere old and , but I never heard any more of them, we went off to Donnington and Oh yes cos you only came out didn't you? Thirty seven. Thirty seven when you came out wasn't it? I came out yes. Thirty six. Oh thirty six, was it? I, I, I had an accident on the, in the July of thirty six. Mm. Ooh I kept this that and the other and keep me in there, so, but eh, I went to Shorncliffe, Shorncliffe hospital. Mm. And there's a Doctor there, he did this operation and he said this is no good, so, take it all away I said Mm. and he was a London, actually he was a, he was only a colonel. Oh yes, yeah. He was in the Army Medical Corps. Mm. When I first went to see him, I went to a, Chatham Barracks. Mm. Brom not Brompton Barracks,Barracks, and I saw him there first of all and then he told me they were going send me to Tidworth. Mm. I went to Tidworth hospital, but he told me, all the time he said, he said they'll have to discharge you, you can't . Mm. Course I gonna I, I bit of a bloody, I still get a . Up to them innit? But first I use to get a eighty per cent disability pension. Did you? And then gradually and then when I got to Donnington I had to go, I use to go to Litchfield you see, to examination, then when I got to Donnington they sent me to Shrewsbury. Mm. And the, I went to the my little now in Italy, making this conditional he says it's no bloody good on me , poor old curly what,I think he's about ninety, he looked it, he said what they keep making you conditional for he said you've got no ruddy condition it's gone and the, the recommended me for a complete discharge and, and eh, I started off with fifty per cent pension. Mm. But they still worked it that if you were working, of course I went to the Ministry of Supply Oh yeah. and I got it gradually put down. Got cut down to thirty and it's still thirty. Mm. It should go back now you can't work. Eh? Should got back now you can't work. Hard . isn't it? That's what I'd say. I don't have to go for examinations at all now, I come under, what's it, you know my bloody pension it marvels me, I've been under every ruddy regimental paymaster and, in the,and Scotland I think, I, I at present I'm with one in Scotland, but eh , mucking about with Ooh I, what, what do you go under then? But, what it comes under regimental paymasters, I suppose it's just the administration you see. Yeah. Do you want a cup of tea Fred? Oh , plenty of time, can I? No, I'll make it. Oh alright. Do you want any more tea Fred? Mm.. Pardon? Been asleep. I'll go and get one, there's still in the pot. Well if there isn't there's, I'll, yeah, be a bit thin now if, put some water in, put water in that kettle. Don't worry I'll got, this will do me mate. O K Mm, what time is it? Twenty to four, by my watch. Yes, it's half past three by mine. My, my watch is the one Irene bought me gone wrong, it's had to go in for repairs. Yes she told me. Gonna cost about sixteen quid to have it repaired. Is it? Blimey. It's had to go away to the makers. Oh. I don't know what's wrong with it I'm sure. without a watch in this bloody thing. Yeah. Keeps stopping. Does it? Oh dear. Oh this is the one I had years ago this one, I've never used it. Oh. It's donkey's years Is young Ben sailing this weekend or is he Eh, yes, oh he goes every Saturday. Eh, Saturday does he ? Yeah, yeah. Where does he go to? On the erm well, down the Mer the Medway. Medway? Behind the it's not the Medway . Chatham way. It's a, yes, Chatham way. It's a river that runs off the Medway. Stewer? No it's not Stewer. Isn't it? Oh. Oh, it comes up from Canterbury of course. No, I, I can't remember the name of it What is, what sort of a boat have they got, is it Oh, about a twenty six footer, something like that. sailing boat? Oh it's a sailing boat, yeah, yeah. I've never seen it. What are you doing for your holidays this year, any ? I don't really yet. I was thinking of going. Hm. I was thinking of going to Austria about the end of September October but, if Alexander's not going abroad I don't know, I shall have to change me mind probably, I'll have to have a word with Sue. what's Sue doing with her holidays this year? There not. Aren't they?. Well I think there in, well they can't go together, told you the last time you was here, they can't go on holiday together. Oh somebody got to business oh. They can't leave the business . They had more staff last year they could leave in. pardon. They had staff they could leave in charge last year. Haven't they got anybody now? Well they've only got one, one girl who sort of does clerical and stuff and reception, they haven't got a anybody who knows how to . of there's. Yeah, yeah, they haven't got anybody who knows anything about the business, well not enough about it. really expensive are now, aren't they? Yeah I suppose got a car. You know, moaning about these blokes like the postman going on strike over a seven per cent rise. Oh I. I mean, they shouldn't want more than seven per cent because the cost of living, you know, the inflation's gone down, but then when a bloke gets forty five thousand quid, you know eh, on a firm where they've a, they've made a profit, but he got an increase of forty five thousand pound which was of, no, no about forty per cent rather, forty per cent increase in his salary, I mean it's bloody, I mean, how can, how can they expect, you know, the ordinary working man to put up with bloody awful increase, if, if they go and give bosses increases like that, I mean it doesn't make sense. Yes, but it's only, it's only people that are in these higher executive jobs that get these bloody monies. Yeah, but then they shouldn't get it, they shouldn't do it. I know. I mean as I say now, how can you turn round to a to a bloke who's, well doesn't matter what his on, eh, what, what ever his, his rate of pay is, how can you turn round to him and say you can't have more than seven per cent, and his got, his got something like a about twenty five, thirty per cent . I think, I think your find that a lot of these big, big money people get paid according to results, and if they get good results they get good money. Yeah, but I don't think this bloke could have particularly good I don't think this bloke had particularly good results. And if the results results fall then they loose it . Hm. He hadn't had good results. Well as that, from my experience, they only pay ya for what your worth, not what , don't pay ya because your good looking or anything like that If a firm's not doing well they can't pay ya, can it? Well . That's, our, our Nick's people would, wouldn't it, and that was it. Hm. They lost all the bloody trade. Hm. I, even Nick, Nick said two years ago things started going down hill The best paid jobs these days, say what you like,don't like, is either in local government or something like that. There over paid vastly, local government. Hm. Well I don't really know how much they get. Pardon. I don't really know how much money they get. Well you've only got to look at adverts in the ruddy paper for I mean I no, I'm, I'm thinking more on the ordinary clerical and that executive stuff, not the jobs . Oh well, I was flicking the . Yeah, yeah. . I mean I don't think there particularly well paid, but they, there well paid for what they flipping well do cos they don't, they, they, they'll do it, but I mean eh, that's the fault of the bosses, they should cut down there staff. You can't blame, you can't blame people for hanging about doing nothing if they've twice as many staff as they should've, and there paying them, I mean, that, that's an administrative error, not a well it seems to be very rift in local government that there over staffed I, I think all these, all these people in local government and things, and eh, it was obvious when, you see adverts for jobs, what a bloody salaries there paying them, for a mediocre job. Well I never look at the adverts do I? I'm not in . No, I don't suppose you do now, but, but I have would off worked for local authorities, because at one time they were very poorly paid. But it's all changed now, there the best paid people in the ruddy country. Hm There'll have to have a ruddy cut down , over this staff over this community charge, there've been trouble here next. Hm. Think about the money, about a quarter of the staff that they did have. Hm, there see, they are over staffed, there's no doubt about it, aren't they? . But I mean I say, that's not the fault of the people who work there, there not going to put themselves out of work. They should never have been taken on in the first place, any bet, that our, our problem should never have been taken on in the first place . Well that's it , this is it, they, they take on staff to increase there own importance. This is Alexander's first day back at school is it? Yes. Today? Well it's only half it was only half term had wasn't it? I don't know. Yes, it's only half term. I mean now And now he has to stay to July, does he? Yes. And then he's gonna start travelling daily eh? It'll be a long day for him won't it? Mm. Oh well, we knew that when he was Pardon? We knew that when he went, went there, that's why he went boarding. Mm. Oh though, it's not bad travelling down there is it? Oh travelling's not bad, I mean,it's only a local train and eh, and it's going, he'll be going in the wrong dir the best direction each time, instead of travelling up to town he'll be travelling out. He'll be going the other way. Going the other way, so eh, be no problem. Oh there's no problem as far as that's concerned. Well you got nearly a mile to walk when he gets to the station. He's got nearly a mile to walk? Yeah. Ain't there any buses? It's not quite as far to the main school, cos the main school goes first and the prep school far, no there's no up that road, it doesn't go anywhere only to the school. Pardon? Doesn't go anywhere only to the school and the eh and the Downs,well,round, but I think there's , no villages I don't think Dale and Mm. Well I mean,, school doesn't lay on buses or anything from the station Think they do have buses come up from places like Bletchingly and erm, Godstone. From where? Bletchingly. Bletchingly. Bletchingly, yes, it's on the, just below the North Downs. Oh. Villages along the eh Buses coming along that way? Well er yes I think, cos they get a lot of pupils from there Oh do they? and the buses, you know, the special buses run, no, the school doesn't run them. No. But because there's a demand for it, the buses run to the school and pick them up at the school. How old is he now, fourteen? He'll be fourteen in October. Like the same as Tom, he's Mm. He's fourteen in July I think,what's a name gave me the dates and I never ruddy well look at them. Oh well it ain't July yet. Aye, she gave me Amy's about the day before, I thought I look at it now, so, I only just got it in time. Erm No, she's got it here, where's Tom? Second of August Tom's is. Second of August? Aye, and Amy was the sixteenth of May, Zelda is the third of September and Nick is the twenty second of July. Alexander is the eh, eleventh of October. Eleventh of the tenth. Nick's is very eh, expensive in Holland it's cost him a lot of money. Mm, has he? Oh dear, mm Good job he had his mum's money, because otherwise that'll be . Yeah What's his salary like there then? I don't know , I've never asked them that. I think it's pretty good. Mm. They wouldn't of gone in the first place. No. But you see you the of Nick is, you see, he worked on his own for this twelve months. Mm. Well more than that. Mm. And people weren't paying him. Oh yeah, this is it. And he's still, one bloke went bankrupt, and he only got amount off him, he's telling me the other week, he's, he's still five thousand pounds owing to him, though, work he did twelve months ago Course it is yeah. Ah, it's hopeless isn't it? Well there's only one way to deal with them , pay you on a monthly basis, or stop working for them. Oh yes, yeah But when he went to Holland, his bill was twelve thousand pounds owing to him,. Was it? Are they bringing the horses back? Oh I, I, I just, I don't,not to get rid of them bloody horses, alright I know what horses cost. Well they are damned expensive. Well of course they are and bringing them over here must cost them five hundred quid. Yeah, it must've cost him that to take them over there. Sell them to the knackers yard. Wouldn't get much for them there. Eh? Wouldn't get much for them there. Aye, but you haven't got to pay out have you? Oh no, no. What the hell does it matter, why pay about five hundred pounds and, and that's two horses I've got, that's a thousand pounds. Yeah. Well they've got to go into quarantine, and that'll cost them won't he? Don't have to go in quarantine horses don't. Don't they, oh. Apparently not, I didn't know what . Oh no , probably not, they don't, they eh, they don't get foot and mouth disease. No. They've got, they've, they've got, they haven't got the But you see hooves, their hooves are not . Charlie , is on his last legs, has been for years and, might as well have him put down,as that Nick keep saying, I think I'll have to have him put down he, when he takes him for a walk he collapses. . Well, have him put down over there But they have to pay for the schooling over there, you know. Yes, I . I don't think Nick realised any of this when he went there, I don't think he looked into it enough. No. Don't eh, do the, do the Dutch people have to pay for the schooling? The children's schooling? I don't know whether it's only a English. Could be that. Mm. I know, I don't know, I've no idea. They don't pay anything here do they? No, no, no, no charge for schools here at all. Well you see they're always talking about what we don't get in this country, they don't tell you what they don't bloody get abroad. Yes . I don't know what their income tax is like is,. Well I've got no idea. I mean, I, I just know nothing about it, I know nothing about it at all. I mean the only country I spent a lot of time in, in, in Europe is Austria, and then I only stopped in remote villages, you know, more or less, so er, I mean they rely on eh, tourist trade, they rely on tourist trade, where, where I've Eh? They rely on tourist trade. Oh yes. In Austria , they don't absolute in the , I mean I know nothing about their industrial places at all. I don't know their industrial I don't, I don't go to the towns or Holland, can to see , look to me as if there were plenty of it when I was there. Oh I plenty of industry at the moment, yeah. But I mean what the pay relative to us the cost of living and everything else, I don't know. I don't think the cost of living is any cheaper than it is here, from what I can gather. Mm, well the cost of living is certainly no cheaper in Austria than it is here. I mean, I don't know what sort of taxes they have on eh, on drink and that sort of thing, but I think Austria is more or less the same same sort of tax. I don't know whether they have to pay income tax or what they have to do. Oh they're bound, I think they're, well, I don't know whether they thought It's only not going to stay, she's coming back. They have all sorts of local taxes and that, you know. Do they? Yes. The, well that's if in place of their age, but their local taxes they, they collect from everybody, you go into a restaurant Oh yes I notice . I'm, I'm not talking about VAT now, I'm talking about local tax. No, no , yeah. So everybody who, who uses the services at a place, pays for it, you know. Don't know if you get it on hotel bills, I think they have to pay something, yes. On hotel bills, they don't, but usually they put it, including local tax, or something like, they always use to show it separately at one time, it's a percentage, but now, very often your bill just shows it as a, including local tax. Aye. But, oh I don't know. They're always knocking the government in this country, it's not much the government are, are they? Somebody's knocking them, whatever, ha, whatever says. I should've got a day return, it wouldn't, it'll been cheaper. I did, but, how much for a single, two pound sixty and return two pound seventy. Yeah, ten pence difference. . What, a day return you see, is usually cheaper than a single, well it use to be. Yeah, I think it might be now. You see, he pay the proper fare, if you only have a single. Yeah. Pay the normal fare. Make mad passionate love to me Jan, eh? No, bloody hell. Perhaps . that's . , I didn't mean it, I didn't mean it. I don't know whether I could manage to make mad passionate love to anybody now. I doubt it . At seventy eight, nearly seventy nine, you know. I suspect you . Well there might be snow on the roof, but the fire is burning, eh,oh shut up . Oh Kathleen Kathleen we've had, we've had our days, haven't we? Yeah, we've had our days . We've had our days . Never mind. She may be er an absolute bloody gem. She , I don't whether she . Well I'm half . Yeah I've got a name, my name's Kathleen, that's what. Kathleen, not Katherine? No, Kathleen. I'll take you home again Katherine .. Home again Katherine. Look across the ocean waves, who will a bill , I take you home Kathleen . take you home Kathleen. I seen a rosy on your cheek, I see them fade away . Kathleen, Kathleen, Kathleen. You're nice and warm. Well you expect me to warm, be warm this bloody weather, eh? Your hands, they're, they're bloody cold, even today. Cold . Don't you ever speak to me like that again,I haven't , I rang, no, no, I the landlord either, I waited until the next morning. Rang the landlord the next morning, Saturday morning, and , apparently he has rang last night , and your wife Debbie took my drink away and away, I said that's fair enough, so he said . Oh no it's not, oh no it's not, oh no it's not, no it's not. He must of phoned her, I didn't know,said called Debbie. No it's bloody not. Took your, took one of your drinks away. If anybody, if anybody gonna throw your drink away, you should, nobody else. No, so, he said oh,. fair enough. I think I've had enough . Said alright, I'll have another one in place of that. Yeah, anyway, I thought well, there's so he said keep getting that bloody form, I if you don't like it . I said, well, what I'm ringing about is am I allowed back in there or am I barred? He said, no, you're welcome back in here, there was nothing serious, it was only between you and , I said well thank you very much, I'll see you later. Maria went, bloody hell, erm, I mean, I don't know about , I've never bothered about anyway, I think he's a bloody dead loss, they were a dead loss when they were in this bloody pub. Just bloody . Eh, but, I mean I said to her she's never, she never speaks to me. , no she don't like you. And I never speak to her. Don't like anybody . I don't know bloody well like me, because I told her off one day, told her where to bloody go to. She's , she went up to Kevin and said . Yeah, anyway Oh no, no,when I told her off. I don't never see her let alone. Oh you . Anyway what's it got to . This is before I left , I I, I haven't done . I told her she was an interfering old cow, I think. , when she was on the phone. Yeah. She didn't have the guts to say wait until the next day, when she saw me ring me up. Yeah, yeah, yeah. don't you ever speak to me like that again, and don't ever push me again, I said balls you old cunt. And, whether, whether she was still listening I don't know,put the phone down. alright. Well that's alright, that's alright,. , but she told Helen, I just called her an old cow and she put the phoned down, well if she thought I said cow, well I don't know but she went and used that . Don't worry about it. So she told Helen all about it. Ah yes, well you see, you see, in effect if you called her an old , that could've been, that, that, that, that, that, that, that could've been eh, that could've been eh, that could've been, you know, you could've been given her a, that could've of been a praise, you old cow. I said balls you old . called an old cow, so she put the phone down. Do you remember the days we've had , darling? Yeah. Eh? An old bugger I was, well I was a young bugger actually then,yeah, yeah. I, did you, did you remember the first ruddy time I ever went with you? Oh yes you bloody well that, old, old eh, the bloke with a, with a , what's his name?the Canadian bloke, got an artificial leg. Oh oh yeah, yeah, yeah. That'll do, that'll do and, and, and, and, and who was the bloke well dressed? You know and his where there Dot. Dot, and the , that was the first time I ever went with you darling, do you realise that? Erm, yeah . Eh? It's called . Who, who? Me and . You're not, you're not still there in the house, what you talking about? Nothing to do with it, he's so bloody religious, there's no not bothered you know. Oh yeah. The danger, that, that, that,look what nature's done in bloody Sutherfield these days, roll up that fucking volcano, the , it has been dormant for six hundred years, and all of a sudden it explodes, explodes. Who the hell are we, poor little people, against that, nothing,we're nothing we're just little bloody flies on the, on the, no more than flies on the edge of the bloody universe you know, I'm sorry. Jesus Christ and all, and all his fucking disciples and Mohammed and all his fucking disciples and everybody else they love him, they love him the whole bloody thing is what rules the bloody universe. This world has been going on for a long time, oh god knows how many, five hundred thousand million bloody years and eventually it's going to, it, it, it, it's going to explode and go Erupt. It will eventually, yes, well the sun will erupt, not, not, not this, the sun will, the sun will, the sun will burn its bloody self out or explode or, or do, or do something, and this galaxy will go and probably, what about all the other galaxies in the bloody universe, you know, and, how, how, how, how, how, how, how's get, how's, how's, how's can you even think about it, you know, it's millions and millions and millions of bloody light years away, what the bloody hell. What, who are we? Little bloody ants on this earth, don't you know, no, sorry, it's not, no, no,so why should we worry? We shouldn't worry, we should enjoy what we have and eh, one . I mean, when I think the world is, they talk about this bloody green stuff, god, bollocks, what, what, what is the green people going to do all about these of flooding and things of this erm,eh, Kath would you like another drink? Yeah . I'll just go and have a wee and I will er, yes Are you alright? Have you eh I enjoyed that one. Is it you, did you enjoy it? Yeah, that's the first pair I've had all morning. I mean all, ever since I've come out. Bloody hell, you enjoyed it. Think I should've been with you. No that, don't be like that like duck, no, no, oh I mustn't be like that, no Sorry . Have you, have you, have you seen Andrew at all recently, you know? Pardon? Have you seen Andrew, you know, eh, oh? Oh Helen's ? Yes, yes. Oh, he was down here the other week, you know. Is he, is he still eh, still working, or Oh, I don't know. Oh. , love, put it away for god's sake, aye. Pick me up at half past four. Who? The taxi driver. Oh the taxi is, oh well that's alright, yeah, alright, what's the time now? He said it was quarter to four, ten to four. Ten to four, ten to four, yeah. I asked him what the time was when I rang and he said Oh Kathleen, we'll have another drink shall we? Yeah, why not? I am, I don't know what I'm going to do , bloody hell. Don't throw it away this time, or knock it over. Can I really throw it away? That's not whisky. Oh. Bloody sweat it is. Kathleen, Kathleen. That's me. Behave yourself, you want a whisky? Yes please. Then you shall have a whisky. Thank you. And when you, when you, when, when, when, when do you, what's it due? Half past four. Eh? Half past four. Bloody hell that's about four or five whiskies away that is ain't it? Bloody hell, I don't know whether I can afford that. whiskies are now, don't you? Bloody hell. Right, I'm going to have a Next time you bring it down, put it there and don't knock it over. Oh shut up woman, shut up, you give me the bloody screaming abdabs, it's my money I threw away. I know. Well shut up. Come on darling, come on darling. Pint of . Pint of , and eh, and I, I will tell you what, oh bloody hell look at this, you know, that's no bloody good is it? You know, no that's no good is it? No, that's no good. And what? A Glenfiddich Eh, you're tempting me aren't you? I'll have a Glenfiddich yes, yes, yes, and eh, and Kath wants a, want a whisky, with a, with a, with a drop of something in it I think, don't she? Yeah, yeah. Three seventy seven please. No. No, no. I tell you what, what darling, I, I, I usually ain't er make much fuss sometime Ooh I might have time later. I tell you what, you know, at my age I bet you, I think you'll be wasting your time. Go on. Yeah, it's, it's not, it, it, it's nice to think about, but you know Yeah. it's all in the mind, isn't it? Yep. You know, at, at seventy eight, you know, nearly seventy nine, you know, it's all in the mind. Yeah, never mind . But, this I'll, I'll tell you what darling, with a bit of encouragement, I do manage it sometimes. No, no, no, you don't believe me do you? I do, if you say so. Now Kathleen, that has got to be yours, it's got to be, er, innit? Thank you. And that's mine, and that's mine, and, no, no, would you like, would you like a drop of this in that, in that? Now would you like me to put some of this, that in there? It'll do your bloody Guinness a world of good, do you want some? This is . No. There you are Kath, now try that. It must be absolutely gorgeous, and cheers to you my darling. Cor bloody hell, what is ? Ah? What ? , don't you like it? I . I give me some . You haven't seen Alexander for a long time, have you? No. Mm, see him now, he's about, well no no, not as tall as me, but built like a brick shithouse and he brought forward, brought forward for his rugby team, you know, and he's erm, oh bloody hell, yes oh yeah, he's very good at javelin, the old javelin, sorry. Can you give me a packet of the ? Eh can I what? Come on, come on, what, what do you want? I don't know, if they do erm no, those chili things. What chili things? I haven't got the faintest bloody idea what you're talking about. Chili con carne? No. What? Oh . No, what, what do you want Kath, come on? A bag of crisps, called erm . Crisps, yeah, come on. Called erm, chili flavour. Chili flavoured crisps. Bloody hell, are they now, what do I go and ask for? Chili flavoured crisps? You use to get these Not McCoys? McCoys, McCoys chili flavoured oh bloody hell McCoys are the finest crisp you can get, shut up. Well I'll, I'll go and see if they've got some. Hang on, hang on Eh shh, come here, have you got any McCoys crisps? Ah yeah, I'll just have a look for you. Eh, you got any McCoys,? I'll have to serve these people. Oh no, alright, you, no, no, O K, go on. They're known as McCoys, they're Branagan crisp, or K P ones. Branagan? Yeah. She wants some that got bloody erm Who's this Kath again? Yeah, yeah. Tell her we've got cheese and chives and beef and mustard in Branagan, O K? You give me cheese and bloody chives, go on, well if she doesn't like them, she can, she can eh, yeah, you know, you know what she can do? I'll tell you, give me two of them. Thirty four, you want one? Well I don't know, I, I, you know, I'll try anything once. So did I. Sixty eight then, please. Eh? Sixty eight. Branagan, she couldn't remember the bloody name could she? She couldn't remember the name could she? No. Alright? How are you? Fine, I'm better than I deserve to be. Yeah. And, I that one, I'll tell you what, you know, ooh god, no, yes, yes, leave it at that, I better than I'd deserve to be. Kathleen, bloody Branagan's, here are, there you are, that's what you want. That's alright isn't it? That's it, that's the one you want Branagan's. Well don't they sell those other things now then? Well I don't know, I said, no, no, we've got these now. McCoys, McCoys. No they haven't got any McCoys, no. Mm, what are these then? You've got bloody Branagan's . Bloody hell, cream cheese and chives. What've you got? Hey they're not bad actually. cream cheese and chives flavour. Mm. You still got the dog Fred have you? Oh good lord yes, she's doing well, in fact eh, some time in November this year she'll only be two years younger than me. Yeah, work it out that way. You work it out that way she'll be eleven. Yeah. Well if she lasts another year and I'll last another year, she'll be older than me won't she? when she's older. No, not . No, I mean . About six, six or seven, eh, five or six. So eh, no she still goes over the downs with me you know. Yeah. We've managed about ten to fifteen miles at a pinch Which is not bad for a couple of old'uns is it? No, not at all. I had a what's it today, from, something about the over fifties you see, so, cos they found it cost, it cost, it costs eight pounds a year to join you see, you know, you know, eh,pay on, so I've joined it, I want to see what they've got to say you know, you get, we get a lot of things you know Blimey I'm nearly into that now. I . You know you can get cheap on it. Yeah. So eh Oh you might as well get all you can mate, can't you? Did they ask you to say how old you are? They have a I'm a driver . Well they're obviously not, looks like a pensioner or something, but eh, you know, erm I can, I'll see if I can get an old, a walking club going with them, you know? Yeah. We will have to eh, see about it. Right I'm going to pop home, I . Yeah, O K Paul, I will see you later. I'll be up again very shortly, see you later Tony. See you later. Yeah. Anyway Dave, now what, what, what you doing? Eh? What are you doing apart from fucking women? Eh? What am I doing? Apart from shagging women. I done a little job for Tony here. Oh. Kicking out the most the time and the . Well, I er, I don't find it difficult to keep out of The Duke at all. Well I mean, you know, let's, let's, let's be honest, oh good lord did I leave that there? Oh I mustn't lose that, my grandson bought me that in Greece Cos I'm a pipe smoker and er, but it's not a Zippo, and he got it very cheap English you see, but I've knackered him you see, because I, he thinks I've still got that, but I, I, I bought a Zippo one, and it's, it's the hippo, the Zippo one that's in there the other one was fucking useless, well, it lasted for a couple of months, a few months, but er How's your dad and mum? Alright, mother's alright, she's on top of the world she is at the moment, nothing of her, but, she seems to be struggling through it all. I passed your dad on the crossing the other day. Yeah, did he speak to you? Yes, well, yeah, but he's a, he's not walking very well is he? He never has done, he's always fucking and fucking . Oh yeah, no, I , no, you know his feet went up ah well, I don't know. No, he ain't for years now. You know what they say I mean for a it's a habit, why he walks like that because he's come home from the Duke so many times pissed innit? Oh he wasn't coming home from the Duke Dave he was going towards it. No, he's just got into a habit, you know. It's no , when he used to come here, he used to be fourteen stone odd. Did he? It was only about eleven now, something like that, but he used to be fourteen stone. He's got to be over eleven, I'm eleven, bloody . Well, got to be about twelve then. Yeah. He was fourteen plus I think at one time. The heaviest I've ever been in me life is thirteen stone. He's never had an ounce, he's never had an outdoor activity in his life, he's never done anything. And it was no bloody good to me. Mhm. Never done, any, any manual work, up, up until when he started packing in the shoes a few years ago. Well I would've called what I did in bloody Austria eighteen months ago physical it knackered me more than many other bloody things I did, like crawling up bloody hills and Mind you it's just as enjoyable. Do you still go oh, oh, oh, oh when you're seventy seven do you Fred? Oh yes,, I don't know, I don't know whether women do, I haven't had a seventy seven year old women yet. I don't know that I've got any ambitions that way although you never know, do you now, what they say there's many a good tune played on an old fiddle I thought you was going to say old women don't, older women don't appeal to me, but what about the one who raped me when I was thirteen? No, I, she she hit me , I enjoyed every minute of it it was a make of the ,eh? in the family . Oh yes, keep it in the family oh dear she was my youngest sister too and she's been dead for, oh bloody hell, she was eighty six when she died, how long's that ago, a few years, I'm the baby of the family and me brother's the next one, and he's eight eighty five now, is he? No he's eighty four, he's eighty four, he's five younger, five years older than me And his wife died a year ago nearly? Eh? My brother's wife died a year ago nearly, and I've seen two off When you were, have you seen Marion at all? Cunt, fuck her, mate. No. Well you did, didn't you? Yes. That's all right then I think I might almost manage it with Marion. Just forget her. I'd sooner just forget her. Oh alright, I'm sor I'm sorry David. No, no, no, no apologies I just don't want to know I'll never forget her, but I'll never wanna fucking see her again, I can guarantee you that. You fucking enjoyed it didn't you? Poor little , ah come on admit it. Yeah, yeah, I did, so what? Well I've met women like that too, you know. All sex and fuck all else. Oh, alright, don't worry, it's all part of life's rich pattern, David. Yeah, but I wish it wouldn't fucking happen when I was when I'm fucking forty three. Be honest with you. Fucking happen . I don't mind if he on bloody ninety, I shall be very pleased with . I should've learnt everything by the time I was thirty, not wait until I was in me forties. Well that's true, yes, yes, David, yes I don't think we should be talking like this you know. Eh? I don't think we should be talking like this but it's quite natural isn't it? I've had more fun since I've been forty, sexually than what I have all fucking . I've always had fun sexually. Eh? I've always had fun sexually. In fact I'm a very lucky man, you know, I can love them and leave them all except one, all except one, you've al you've always, you've always got to meet your Waterloo haven't you eh? Mind you I didn't say that I, I, I, I was faithful to that one, but I couldn't leave it because she needed me so much. Yeah, you see, now so much got in the worst of us and so much bad in the best of us,, speak ill of the rest of us Ha I've just finished reading the er, whole text of Rudyard Kipling's . Yeah. Yeah. You want ? I knew er lots on beat and pic bits and pieces out of them but er, bloody amazing how many, how many he wrote in his life time. Well they interest me because a lot of them are about, about the army and no, no, pretty far ranging, army, navy, but er, a lot of them about India er but he a, he certainly a criticized the er, the powers of being, you know, in the er, you know in the Boer War, the Great War and you know, and up to the thirties. Fred, back down this month. This weekend I think. Going Thursday or Friday? Sunday , oh I don't know, he didn't say, no, no he didn't say. was going this weekend. Yeah, he use to go on Thursday or Friday weren't he? Mm, well it's Wednesday today innit? Yeah. What you doing tomorrow? Well . You going down this weekend? Dunno yet, I really don't know, erm well I only popped in Sundays, I've been going to spend the week, er the other half and me ended up in Littlehampton and Arronale for the day. Oh yeah. Didn't go to a pub or anything, didn't go to a pub, we come back past and went in the quarter past seven at night Yeah. had a bite to eat and a couple of pints, cos I've got to drive back up here and Well yeah, yeah, yeah, mm. saw Bob and, I mean I passed the pub at a quarter past twelve. How is , how is your present darling? Which one? Oh the one I'm with now? Well yes, that's what I mean, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah she's nice, sweetness. Maybe not , she might fucking chuck me in tonight for all I know, I don't know. She might what? Well that depends whether you get pissed or not. I've hadn't been pissed only once. Or er, or when you go out with another woman. Ain't done that yet. Are you sure? Well I'd must admit I wouldn't have that, and she'll never feel on but, I look so far. It must be getting a bit boring Dave. No, not at the moment. Well it was last night,I fell asleep, I was watching a film at the time. Dave it's about time you bloody settled down. Who me? Yes, you. I settled down once, where'd it get me? In trouble, oh, what am I talking about? Oh I tell you what, I got some nice scrumpy at that bloody eh, what's it, last weekend, the South of England Show. Oh yeah. Mind you it wasn't real scrumpy. No, no. No, no, not like the Devon No, don't it come from er not, not, like the Devon and I, I know where it come from , it'll probably come from East Sussex down at er, the vineyard near erm No, no, no, no I don't think near Eastbourne , I would say . No, I don't think you was , no I don't think it was a one, no. Borehamwood, Borehamwood. Oh no, no, it didn't come from Boreham no, actually I was very surprised, there was nothing, in, in the show there from er, Merridale, no, not a,noth nothing at all. It's a pub isn't it Merridale? Yeah, yeah, Merridale is . No, no,. No but, yeah but Merridown,Merri Merridown has never professed to be scrumpy. No. No, no, no, wait a minute, wait a minute, let me think, this was somewhere, don't forget they come from all over the bloody country the South of England Show erm, this scrumpy was all somewhere a bit farther north, Cotswolds or Shropshire? or, or, or, no it wasn't Shropshire. A few places there size of house . No, no, no, no, no , oh a lot of size of house at Hereford. Hereford's got a lot of size of houses, but no, no but, it was very clear, absolutely clear, I mean our scrumpy shouldn't be clear. No, it should be all thick and horrible. Yeah I don't . Well, what, what it doesn't taste of scrumpy, but it was absolutely clear, no it was quite a nice drink, but erm, but it wasn't scrumpy. Scrumpy should come up, scrumpy should come up all clouded you know, you know with bits of sheep and er bit bits of sheep and rats and that lying about in it were they've thrown them into the you think I'm joking don't you? I use to drink scrumpy you know, you know, I, I mean, I must be going back before your time, you know, a long time, you know, we're talking about drinking scrumpy in the thirties and forty and fifties, when scrumpy was scrumpy and when we were glad of it Oh, I use to love the old scrumpy. It was so dry, now,you know the scrumpy you get here, I mean, that, that, scrumpy jack is nothing like it, but the first time you drink real scrumpy in Somerset or Devon you know, or, or, or around there, and we go and your mouth goes That it, it's true, it's absolutely, but when you managed to swallow a few bot you know, a few of them, you know, you know it's alright then. Well it is so dry, god, but er,the first time I drank it, I think it was about threepence a pint, it was always a lot cheaper than beer, you know, it was in the thirties, threepence a pint. We're shooting now Fred. Eh? We're shooting off now. Yes, O K, I'll see you Dave, don't do anything I wouldn't do will you? Ah fucking hell. Alright then. Ah, Tony, look after him. Ta ta Fred. Ta ta Dave. did you go in the pub on your way up? In the what? Pub Forester's. Oh, oh, I did have a quick one in there yes. . No. . No. Hm. No he wasn't in there, well it's only about what. I no, but I, quite often his, his waiting outside for the opening time . It be , oh no he wasn't in there, well I didn't see him any way. Saturday. Yeah. Oh it was about quarter past eleven, went in there first, because on a Saturday the taxi can't park along there. No not there. You've got, started this was name haven't you?car park. Oh yeah, definitely . . cor he said your early, I said yes, so are you by the looks of it , got a fiver and you've had that much out of it. . How, how old's Alan any way? Oh round about sixty. Oh, he doesn't, he doesn't qualify . No. . . He's not a pensioner, his on Social Security and also he got another his got two his getting ever so I don't know . No. His pension's went up . . So his got one, I noticed he has two books the other day. Hm. He had a week owing, but mine went up, then up just as my other book finished, so. How do you to send the difference? Well mine went up and I had to pay twenty five per cent, that's didn't I? . Oh, there's no justice in this world is there? Quite right. Not at all. You make it all, you make it all just . Ever, you know. Well I don't know what's going to happen. I haven't had a reply back yet, but I don't ask, there tell me, wrote last week. Oh I suppose, I, I. The exact date. At my age, I should think myself lucky I have to pay Income Tax , I don't think I'm like it, no, no it's, no it's true. No, they wrote and ask you for the exact date of day I started getting ability allowance. Oh yeah. So so if they can assess my partner on . Shall I come and live with you Kath and you can claim constant attendance allowance . . Steady on. Yeah I know you you was always going to help me out. What. Always use to sulk .. He said to me after, he said, oh you will be disgusted with himself, I wouldn't believe . . . Oh that was dodgy . . Oh you're not talking about the ehm, you not, you not talking about the old club down, ehm. . , oh god, oh that was a right old club, the , oh god, the number of times I've got michaelled in there. . God that was a, that was a .. . Hey, that was a hell of a club wasn't it, the . Well, I only went there once, once with you I think. Yeah. Probably twice, ehm , Sid took me there once . I took Joyce there a couple of times. Sid took . Yeah, yeah, yeah, good. . . That was a weren't he? Got . I didn't remember much . Who? I use to sit there and smoke and use to too, then suddenly you woke up . But I didn't drink much, did I? Could you tell us what job you do in B M K? In picking. In picking? What does that involve? That repairs any faults that's happened at the weaving or the spinning Oh right. or anything we repair them. You're the last stage in Just about, aye. Just about, aye. Have you been doing it for many years? Seventeen. Seventeen. Mhm. Right. So you're the right person to ask the Right, right. question. Right. What we're go interested in is can you tell us anything about how, how you came to get the job at first. Was it because you knew somebody in the factory or was it the wages that attracted you? Well I, I worked in Johnny Walkers, and when I worked in there at that time when you get married you had to leave, that was their policy, Mm. they didn't employ married women. So I had to go to the, like the job centre and they offered me this, which I didn't really fancy at the time. Er but I really like it Mhm. now, a lot of fol a lot of people find that surprising but Mhm. I quite enjoy my job. Have you met a lot of friends in here? Er well I keep friendly with the people that I work beside but not outside the work. Mhm. I get, I have a different circle of friends outside the work. Mhm, I see. I like to keep it separate. Do you ever do or anything like that? Yes, aye. Mhm. So Oh I'll do anything. If something happens in the work you'll maybe have a social occasion, to celebrate somebody's retirement . That's right, or somebody getting married or , oh aye I go to these things . Mm, gosh, Do you find that the place has changed much in the length of time you've worked here? Yes, aye. I find quite a difference aye, there's I don't know in what way but, I enjoy it better. I find er it's busier, Mhm. you're kept busier all the time. You don't get so much time to get bored or fed up, and there's always something going on and everyone's in a hurry and I like that. Mhm. I like to be kept going. Is the actual kind of machinery in the way you do your job changed? No. No. No it hasn't changed in any way. Do you feel that you've got more or less job security now than in the past? What do you mean by that? Well, is it, you mean technology hasn't affected your job to such an extent that you feel that you know you could get laid off at any minute if they bring in something new? No, I don't think, No? no, I feel quite secure Mm. in my job, aye. Now I was gonna say do you feel that women are an integral part of the factory, there are a lot of women working in the factory, doing quite important jobs. Oh yes, mhm, definitely do, I mean Are there a lot of women bosses? Well, in the department where's there women working they've got women bosses, Mhm. I think it's a kind of policy they have, they've got to have women where there's women working. Mhm. find out what's than a man well personal things you've got to Mhm. up you've got to, it's easier to approach a woman Mhm. then a man. It's always been that. Mhm. Do you have any nicknames for each other? Mhm. And are you going to tell us? Er there's one girl called Quicksoup Quicksoup . she never slows down, she looks busy and everything but she's not really, she just goes all the time and that's Mhm. her name, Quicksoup, Mhm. you know. Anyone else? Er no, not that I can think of, No? Do you have any special terms that applies to the job that we wouldn't know about? Any nicknames for machines or processes or Not really no, none that I can think of. Is it a job that you would need to really, you would need to be trained for it? You'd need to, you couldn't just bring somebody in . Well there's certain parts that just the basic, like you could, I could go down and show you, but there's others parts it takes a lot of years Mhm. well quite a while to Mhm. if you get a hole in a carpet maybe you could put your hand through, it would take you quite a Mhm, you'd be able to patch that? Aha. Aha, Oh I think so, aye. Do you ever go on any training courses or anything? No, never. Just within the job you're doing? Mhm, when I started in here er I just got put up to work beside one of the women, she just showed me, Mhm. as things cropped up at the time she just showed me how to do it, and I just picked it from there. And is it a big section? I think there's about seventy or women in it, but there used to be must have been about, maybe about eighty or ninety women Mhm. to the, the picking. Do you do a lot of overtime then? Mhm, aye. Shift work ever? I've did er night shift once, just one week, Mhm. I didn't like that, er Are there people work it? Er there is sections, there are not very many women do er night shift. Mm. Just two or three, but some of them do the er six till two, two till ten. Mm. But we're er, we get a lot of overtime in our section, that's Mm. where all the, the backlog of work catches up, anything bad you can get a good run then you, you just get a bad er run of carpets of the weaving Aha. and that's it held up at picking. Aha. And how do you feel the er the hours and pay when you started relate to how it is now, is it better or worse, do you think? I just find it much the same Mhm. because, well I get paid off when the receivers come in, I was about three month out before I got sent back for and er the starting wage was, I think we actually got a wee rise, I think we were the only section that got a rise, and everybody else got a drop. Because we were one of the lowest pays in the factory which we don't, our section doesn't think it's right because Mm. we determine quite a lot of the quality of the carpet. Mm. I mean, well it's like everything else you can miss a thing but that's Mm. where the inspection comes in Mm. to it. Mhm. But er we have to repair everybody else's bad work. Mhm. Have you noticed any kind of, like a kind of hierarchy within the factory, like you know one section thinks they're better than another section? Oh yes, oh they definitely do, aye. Mhm. Oh definitely. And who thin who thinks they're the best? Well the weavers think that they, they're, they're the lead. Mhm. Er weaving it. They don't think of us sorting, they just say, oh the pickers'll get it. And er the spoolers think they're better than us, cos they get higher pay than us, they think it's er they're more skilled, it takes them to longer to train to do the job seemingly but they couldn't, we have to sort their repairs again if they do anything wrong it's us that have Mhm. got to repair it. Mhm. Which we don't think's fair. We've always thought that, that we should er at least be in the same label as them. Mhm, so there's quite a bit of joking goes on between sections about this and . Mhm, oh aye, mhm. And the, the, the laugh I had was er, the last time they were advertising for spoolers they, you had to have I think it was O levels or something , Aye. never. I mean what do you need O level, alright to be quiet with your hands and things like that, but how do you need O levels for a factory job, I mean. Mhm. And they say if any jobs come up at you would need it there. And to me that's not, I mean you can have, you don't need to be clever, you just need a Mhm. just need to be, och I don't know the word for it. You can be smart without being clever. Mhm. I'd have been, I didn't like the school, I didn't, Aha. I wasn't interested in, I liked anything you didn't have to use your brain for. I felt the teachers had a lot to do with it at the school, if I liked a teacher I liked the subject. If I didn't like the teacher that was it I didn't bother. Aha. But er I was always more interested in doing things with my hands, er P E, music, art, all the things you didn't have Mhm. So naturally I was going into . Mhm. I had no aspirations about As quick as you could leave? Aye, mhm. Earn some money. Well in them days you could, if you got fed up with a job you could just go and move on to another Mhm. job. And were your mum and dad happy about that? Did they expect you to do that? Ah they didn't, they knew I wasn't really interested in school, they were, didn't bother them at all. No they were just ordinary factory workers just the same. Mhm. They felt quite happy when you got a job in here? Mm. Oh aye. And, and you're married? Mhm. Do you have a family? I've no family, no. No? No. You don't have that added burden. No. Just a husband to clean up after, No, and no? and a wee dog. Aye, I've seventeen year of being married. Where does your husband work? He worked in here as well, he was a carpet fitter,. Is that how you met him? No, I knew him from the school. Aha. Knew him for years and years. Was that a good job, carpet fitting? Aye, well he's started his own wee business up,carpets. Aye. So he's been in that's just about a year and a half now. Aha. Er he's selling and fitting carpets, he quite likes it. Do you get any perks in here? No. No? No. I go outside and do er repair jobs if there's any you know, complaints in the carpets, they send me out, as long as it's within the kind of Aha. er driving distance, but er, I feel that's a big perk. Mhm. But it isn't really. You have to face people er that sometimes not very pleased that you're coming, Aha. that there's something wrong in their carpet. Er but it's a wee break away, it's a wee change of scenery. Mhm. I quite enjoy that. And what kind of holidays do you get, do you get a week at the fair? Fortnight at the fair, and Is it a kind of traditional thing? That's it, aye, that's it, aye that's all. Usually in our section they've er you can work during the holidays. Mhm. Because there's, there's usually somebody working in every section just to keep a wee turnover of things that's in a hurry Mhm. going. But I prefer to take my holidays at the, the fair. Mhm. And everyone gets quite excited,. That's right, aye. Oh you making your holiday plans for with all the brochures are due out shortly so we bring them all in and, and when we go for breaks we look through them and decide where we're gonna go next year. And where's the favourite place? Er America's very popular this year. Mm. Mhm. Florida? Mhm. Aye. One of them's been two or three times, this was, I think this was her fourth time, so she went away to F Florida, away over to the Gulf of Mexico. She really enjoyed that. Mm. Er I was at Portugal, we had fancied going to America but er my husband's young brother and his wife want to come with us this year and they've got two young kids so they felt it was far enough for them. Mhm, mhm. mhm, that's good. Do they ever hold anything down like the way they used to children's parties at Christmas and, and ? No, no they don't have anything . They used to have er dances as well every, Mhm. Christmas dances, annual dances, but that all stopped, aye. Do you know if they still have a football club? They still have a, a kind of thing within, I don't think they've got football but they've got a golfing thing going. Mhm. Er, I don't, I haven't time for all them things I work twelve hour shifts. Mm. Tired enough when you get home? Aye. You just like to sit and watch the television? Oh no, I've got to get my Get the tea made and, no no. It's all go. Does your husband help and things? Not very much I'm afraid to say, no. Not in the No, he's a bit of a male chauvinist. And I gave up er nagging him, I just got on with it myself. Aye, there's a lot of them about. Do you think you have a few views in common with your workmates or do you think that when you're talking things come out that you kind of like minded about things, maybe because of the job you're doing, and the place you work in, you know like maybe like politics or something, Mm. you'll all be sitting saying, oh I hate that Maggie Thatcher, or whatever? Oh aye. Er they don't really bring that up much, No? no. I must admit in the break I we like to do the crossword. Mhm. We sit and concentrate on the crossword, we don't kind of, unless we get it done quick, which is isn't very often. Er we concentrate on that, do my crossword and things like that. So I don't really have much conversation with a lot of them. Mhm. Just the wee group of us, there's different groups go at a time Mhm. and er that's what I do. I feel it keeps the brain ticking over. Mhm. It's important Right, thank you. No I've asked all them Have you? Yes. Er, there's just one thing I wanted to ask, you ken how you said you were working in Johnny Walkers, Mhm. I mean, how, how did they used to compare in the two, there was all these different factories, A lot of them before that as well. ? Aye. So I mean w was there a s kind of like one that was the one to be in if you could get in, and other ones that were maybe not so good or was it just going from one to another till you ? It was just going from one to the others, if you got fed up you just, when you left the school you put your name in them all and Mhm. just whatever one come up first you went for the interview and if you answered it you just took it. Aye. Well when I worked at, when I started off in the I quite liked my job in there, you made your own pay, and I liked, it was a starching job, I'd quite a good job in there. I got er timed in there with the, what do call them, they come and timed you, erm Oh work studier? Aye, work study, getting my minutes caught in there cos there was,er but at the time I left there they was doing a lot of shifting about and they were talking about shutting the old sewing. Mhm. And it made everybody was getting shifted down to , so I didn't fancy working down there, we'd heard that much about it so that's when I left and went to Walkers. And then well I met John, when I was in there, started going out with him, and er as I say when you get married in there you had to leave, so this, this was the next job they offered me. So you weren't too happy about that, getting shifted on? No I didn't, no I, I don't really like change, I kind of Aye. Mm. But I didn't like working at Johnny Walkers so I think it was quite a good thing at the time, although I didn't really like it I'm glad now that it happened cos I'd probably still be working in there. Mhm. Er, I didn't like it, it was awfully boring. Really boring in there. And it was all just young girls, they were ov over catty with each other, you ken, it was oh, it was terrible place to work, I didn't like it. Aye. But as, as I say it was a job at that time and and in fact I'd never, this was the only factory I hadn't fancied, working in was the B M K, and yet I like it the best. Mhm. I think that was quite lucky I landed in a good job, Mhm. Aye. something I like doing. Cos every every day you're seeing a different carpet because they do a lot more contract now. Mhm. In the old factory it was just all like home market, what they call home market, it's the same Mhm. kind of carpets all the time, just an odd contract stuff, now it's nearly all contract, so you're seeing a lot of different carpets and it's more interesting wondering where they're going to, like America and Mhm. all different places. I quite enjoy it. Do you have quite a bit of pride in your work? Mhm. Oh aye, I like, I like getting something that's a bit of a mess and being able to make a job of it and Mhm. I get job satisfaction at it, which I didn't get in any of the other jobs. Mhm, and do you feel quite settled in the job? Mhm. Oh aye. In the town? Quite like the town? Mhm, aye, I like . I wouldn't like to move to . No I never fancied, Yeah. and yet it's not really any distance, into . I'm quite kind of set It's in my ways. quite a difference, all the same, isn't it? Aye. But er, so how, how's the town changed, since you started work? How's the town changed? Mhm. Oh well it's all changed up certainly, you mean pedestrianization and all that? Aye. Oh that's all changed, aye. Mm. Definitely. I think well there used to be three or four picture houses in the town, there's only one now. Aye. They kind of things you mean? Mhm. I mean how, how do you feel about that, I, I mean look what Well we've they've done to it. We we've just got a local we go to, which Mhm. we don't really go about much, but I like the pedestrianization, I quite Aye. like shopping in . If I'm looking for anything I prefer to shop in , but if I'm just browsing I don't mind going like out of the town, down to or up to for a day but, if I'm looking for something particular I prefer to stay in cos I know where to go. I think they've got quite good variety of kind of up market right down to, if you're looking for a bargain. And do you think youngsters nowadays have got less opportunities than you had leaving the school? Oh aye, definitely, mhm. Well they all getting encouraged to stay on. Well they're, I mean at least you knew if you didn't like the school you could go into a factory but I mean O levels for doing the jobs we are, I, I think it's, we had a good laugh about that. Mhm. Mhm. Then that was one thing we had a good laugh at. Couldn't believe it, do you not think that's Mhm, mhm. a bit It's just No grey mass is not anyway. It's not, you've got to be clever with your hands in most of these Aye. jobs, maybe a good eye to pick up faults in the pattern and that but as for you have to be clever I think it's senseless. Do you get any particular kind of ailments working sore fingers and sore back? Aye, sore fingers, hard, you get hard where you're cutting all the time in the shape, but apart from that, maybe scissors fall that on your foot and Do you have to stand all day? Mhm, aye. When I left in here at the when the receivers come in I got a wee job in Centre, up the town, and I had, I could have got a job in a hosiery in but I didn't fancy travelling down there, so I took that wee job up there. It was alright but I didn't like the Saturday work. It was a complete change for me, Mm. going into something that I'd never done before. Mm. the tilling. Counting out the money and that at night cos there's only two of us in it. Mhm. But I coped alright with it. work Saturdays in here now? I do work, aye Mhm. just the Saturday morning, it's only Mhm. till quarter past eleven, it's an easy wee shift, Mhm. quite a good wee shift. Good. But I've, I take my long lie on a Saturday. That's my day off. Course saying in another two or three weeks I'll maybe not. Aye. If I get fed up and take another wee day off, maybe a Sunday or something like that. Well in here you don't get double time for a Sunday,. Never good with their, good with their overtime hours but we're working at that. So you're happy in your job then? I am happy in my job, aye. My husband always gets amazed at that, if we're outside he'll say to people ask, do you know if she likes her job and they, he's amazed Ken that can Mhm. can enjoy their job in a factory but Aha. I do. probably the only one. I'm going to try and keep a record, a log of those who speak, and at the end of the meeting, there's some information I need about you, like It's not it's not required information. If you wish to give it, age, sex, occupation, that sort of thing . Er so th I will also then have a list of the people who need to sign the form. Okay. If you don't speak, you don't need to sign the form. Right. Forget all that. We begin our meeting. And for our devotions, I want to turn to psalm number one hundred. Yesterday, er I t took part in a Songs of Praise service at North . And what the folks had done, with their quarterly newsletter that they send to both villages, North and South , on the back, they'd put a form requesting that every household submitted their five favourite hymns. And these hymns were then compiled together the top ten. And last night, we sang the top ten, in the Songs of Praise service, and it was a surprising how many extra people came to the church, as a result of that. Tt and er one of the passages that I read during the service, is this one, psalm a hundred. Make a joyful noise to the Lord, all the lands. Serve the Lord with gladness. Come into his presence with singing. Know that the Lord is God, it is he that made us and we are his. We are his people and the sheep of his pasture. Enter his gates with thanksgiving and his courts with praise. Give thanks to him, bless his name. For the Lord is good. His steadfast love endures forever, and his faithfulness to all generation. Amen. The er hopeful line I think, in that psalm is the first one,Make a joyful noise to the Lord, all the lands. So it means that you don't have to be a brilliant singer. It says joyful, not tuneful. And as long as it's done with joy, then it is acceptable worship. Let us pray together. Father we thank you for the worship life of our church. We thank you for the times when it moves us to be in your presence together. We recognize too that there are times when we are frustrated. Or anxious about things that are happening. The whole variety of experience that makes up our worship life. For we our changing and growing in you, and together. And Father as we think together further, about our worship, about the life of our church family, we pray that you would be with us n this meeting. Guide and direct all our conversation. And lead us that we might know your will mor clearly, and desire to follow it more fully. We pray in the name of Christ, our Lord. Amen. Amen. My first task tonight having finished the devotions, is to welcome Stella , as our minutes secretary. You don't know Stella, what er a delight it is for us to have you. We've been looking for you for some months. And er we're delighted to ha that you want to take on this task. Okay. I'm also pleased to be able to welcome Bill, to the meeting tonight. It's Bill's first er time at the worship consultation, but I believe everybody else has been here before. Is that correct? Yes. So we welcome you Bill. We've received a number of apologies for absence. And the ones I've had so far are these, Emma , Peggy , Will , Jan and Martin , Stan , Terry , Richard , Peter and Jim . Quite a substantial list. Are there any others? Any others? Evelyn. Evelyn . And Anne asks that her name be added, but crossed out if she subsequently comes. . The minutes of the last meeting which were held on the thirteenth of May, have been circulated. Can I ask you if you think they are a correct record? Any dissension? There was just one thing I need to add, and that is the name of Mr Peter , to the list of those present. Peter informed me when he er rang me up, that he was there. So can I just Yeah. amend the minutes. Thank you. Then with your agreement, I shall sign these as a correct record. Terribly sorry, couldn't find a way in. Have you not been up the ramp before? Well I was expecting th Well I was expecting it to be the church hall you see. Right. these trumpets blowing Right. Jenny I should tell you that the meeting's being recorded for this er, for the dictionary people. And er we've a we've all given our permission. However of course you may not give your permission, for your words of you know, I couldn't find the doors And I need you to sign a consent form before you go as you have spoken at the meeting, okay. And er you know, your words could find their way into one of Longman's dictionaries. Or er all those other things. okay. Matters arising from the minutes please. The question of wider publicity. I reported last time that I'd made an approach to Chris . I've heard nothing more from him, neither have I asked him yet, if he's come up with anything. Er that's neglect on my part, erm but unless anybody's spoken to Chris, and Anne's not here. Erm we'll leave it at that for the time being. The whole issue of the preparation of worship, that's under b b b b E on page two last time. Er the stewards have started to discuss the ideas and have yet to come forward some suggestions. That still stands. But we have got a meeting on Thursday, so perhaps we could make a point of er coming forward with some possible suggestions. Er C, theme services, that's er G on the erm minutes. Erm we have arranged two sets of theme services. The September ones are in hand. And we're doing something on the character of the Christian, er I can't, obedience,, righteousness is one and I can't remember what the other is. Pardon? No I don't th Ah. I can't remember. Repentance, Obedience, Righteousness and Humility? Humility, right. Okay. Just wait while I write your names down. . Okay. So that's all in hand, erm the preachers we wanted didn't quite work out as we'd suggested. Er but er I've managed to fiddle it with the suggested preachers for the November series, which I have come a little bit unstuck about. And I'll report that to the stewards at the meeting on er on Thursday as the initiative came from them. Mainly because erm wires got crossed and er the 's Hall folks want us to go again to do exchange at the end of November, and Well we'll discuss it a little bit further. I don't think it's impossible, but we just need to make sure, that we've got it right. The church anniversary, nineteen ninety four, er that's number three on the er minutes. Er Miles is now definitely coming to England. We didn't definitely know that when we had the meeting, but he is coming and I will write to him when he arrives in the country. And see if he'll be willing to come. Er point four, the use of silence. Simply to report that there are no further demelo developments on the use of silence in worship, since our last meeting. But I give you my undertaking, that the ideas will be pursued er at a later date. Er I mean that very helpful discussion, er though aspects of it have already been included. But the particular thrust of the theme er will come in later on. Er item five on the minutes was, Can we combat the competition posed by other children's activities? And erm one of the things we agreed to do was to compile a list. Erm Pat, Cath and Andrew, did we get anywhere? You have some names. So erm that's still to be sorted out er in the future. We'll we'll get together over that and sort it out, but we are seriously er getting about, doing what we were asked to do. Erm There's also mention there about er family services, and I've put those on our agenda later on. And er and an item particularly that comes from the church council. Are there any other matters arising that anyone want to pick up on at this point? Can I just say, about the erm sport side. I found that it is the planning of this, that it's also choir rehearsals, and certain school activities that do clash. Right. With junior church. So it isn't just Sport. sport . Right. Okay this Covered the matters arising, happily, for now? Okay, the rest of the agenda looks like this. The time of the morning service, language, quite appropriate considering, church family services, and all age worship, children and communion, if we have time, any other business, date of the next meeting, go home. Okay. Time of the morning service. This whole issue about er children, junior church, other activities, children being compromised, adults finding it difficult to insist or persuade their children, that they should be in junior church, when other folks are trying to tempt them in other directions. Erm was raised er, quite helpfully I thought, at the church council when it met erm at the end of last month. Now er one of the very, or the very serious suggestion that came out of that meeting, and it I think it met unanimous support that night, was consideration of altering the time of the morning service. And the suggestion was that it should be at nine thirty, and not ten thirty. So that's quite a radical shift, bringing it forward a whole hour. And er we did say that we would consult further about it, and erm you are one constituency, er which certainly you know, er as is your responsibility to think about the worship line of the church. Where it we ought to consider it. So it's a suggestion at the moment, it's not a firm proposal, it's not fixed in concrete and I would hate anyone to to think that that was the case. But does anyone have any strong feelings either for or against changing the time, and for or against nine thirty. In taking the time on it's own, erm that that's not not a problem I would have thought, for most people, cos if they're making Sunday lunches anyway, then i it's in the middle of the morning one way or the other. But in terms of competition, does it actually address the competition? Erm we can't really answer that, as a body, until we've looked at some of the er preparation for that. That Pat's doing, with Cath and Andrew. So I mean i i we'd answer that in isolation. Right. Yeah we do need more information certainly . Mm. Erm but I mean i i you know the reason I asked this question is that, if this group said now, Absolutely no way. then we would probably wouldn't go any further with it. You know. But if you are saying, you know, We need more evidence and we will and we you know, certainly don't rule it out of court. Well you could make a proviso. Yes yeah. John? Would for instance, sort of ten o'clock er instead of the hour half an hour difference, be a possibility? Erm . Yeah. I mean that's that you know, I mean Yeah it's all up for grabs I would suggest . Yeah yeah. It was also discussed that nine thirty wasn't early enough. Yes it wa were thinking of morning sports, it wasn't early enough, Yeah. you would need it to be nine o'clock. Yeah. What do the other churches think then, in town catholic and the . Well I know the Minster have a nine thirty and eleven o'clock. The catholic meet in the middle of the night I think don't they. Yeah, the catholic are coming out at half past nine aren't they. Yes I think, I don't know whether it's half past eight or nine o'clock, but it's certainly, it's in the dark in the Winter Half past eight. Is it half past eight? Right. Trinity I think have one Half past ten. Half past ten right. . I don't mind the half past nine,half past, but I do feel concerned about those older people, who've already said they they couldn't possibly get for half past nine. Mm. And it seems such a shame after all, yes. To deprive them of the Right. Some folks have actually said that have they ? Yes. I mean I don't Yes. Cos I don't mind it myself but erm Right. I do feel concern for the older people. Mhm. Cos very often the older people . Yeah. Right. Is nine thirty er that time ever been used in Methodists. Well yes there there's plenty of erm there's precedents for it. Right. I mean perhaps Colin you'd talk about for a moment. two services, they have a think it's nine fifteen and ten forty five, I'm not sure. Er We've worshipped on holiday at nine thirty. In methodist churches? Anglican Yeah. we don't have to have a precedent even do we if it if it No. meets our situation. I think you need to collect the names of the n the people who won't be able to come before nine or nine thirty, and weigh it against those people who will. Mm. Again it's it's children percent Yes oh yes, parents have to be asked as well. Yeah. Mm. And if there was er an a distinct advantage in that would be obviously beneficial wouldn't it. But if it didn't and they weren't forthcoming, then erm Yeah. I know some of the sport starts about ten o'clock on Sundays. Right. Sunday mornings. Yeah. football time. Well we might have er be able to speak with the people who are doing the coaching, and work out the times Yes yes. with those. I mean if we are positively going to have junior church, we could say, Well couldn't As we are the earlier, why can't they Start later. Yeah. start later. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean if we're going to compromise,. Right. Bill? I was just gonna say, exactly that. I i it comes down to If we're gonna move it earlier, why are we gonna move it earlier? And are we moving it earlier because of the er competition with sport and so on? And if so erm are we then gonna go early enough to to prevent this clash? Right. And erm er from what I've seen I mean people are often at football games for ten o'clock kick off and so on, which means er that's just one example, which means they could be away, half past eight in the morning. Right. Yeah. So and so then Yeah. you've gotta decide if you're actually gonna avoid clashes with Mm. the sport and so on and er and then what time you're gonna go for. And alternatively we do a bit of research and find out if some compromise can be arranged. Well I think the consideration and the research has got to go on for some time. Mm. Yeah absolutely. Erm I think, just moving it earlier, I s completely support what Bill just said, doesn't actually solve the problem. I think as well the young people have got to be motivated, to come to what they find here. And I think er Well Pat and I have discussed that a little bit as well, cos I've been under some pressure in this direction with Alice. Erm. Yeah. Mm. She's very happy, to attend another worship in the day. And has come with me, and bored out of her mind, and not understood it. Mm. And she willingly offered to come. And I think we've got to face that end of problem as well. Yeah. Mm. just shifting time zones, doesn't actually solve the problem. Right. And we may antagonize a lot of people in doing so. Right. Do I detect then that the general feeling is that we shouldn't even tamper with this. Until you've done a bit more research. No I m No I mean full stop. No I I wasn't I wasn't implying that. No but I was just sort of testing you out to see, you know, how you reacted. Coming to junior church and worship, is not a sufficient attractive proposition, for our young people, with with regard to the competition. Right. If it was a er you know, if it was really attractive to them, something they wanted to do, they would bring about those compromises themselves. Cos they would be going to their coach, or team or what have you, and saying, Look we want to. And then . So it's actually the quality of our worship that we need to improve, rather than changing the time. Well I think changing the time might bring about . So we will, we will consider further. But you would want to put some pretty strong caveats on the whole, thing. Mm. Mm. Agreed. Mm. Right. Thank you. That's very helpful, erm I mean obviously, we've yet to decide who's going to do the research, and who's going to do all the considering. Erm obviously I can have ad hoc conversations with different groups, and I'll I'm very happy to do that. But the danger is of course that we don't cover everybody. And everyone needs to be consulted. Yeah. Yes. Er it did occur to me I mean I was, in my last church, the for for completely different reasons, the question of the timing of the church services, was brought up. And the worship consultation did institute a questionnaire, that every household was asked to fill in. To talk about when th when worship would be most helpful for them to be hol to be held. Yeah. You know and to talk about many other, while they were at it with this questionnaire, they tackled many other subjects as well you know. What do people find unhelpful in worship? What would they like to see included? And er a whole host of things came up and a number of things were repeated that we were able to follow up. But interestingly, a huge proportion, of the people, said, Don't change the time of the services. Nothing, it wasn't changed. But of course, most of the people that that you're asking are those, who it suits. You know those who it doesn't suit, don't belong to our church. So you could almost predict the answer when you think about it, erm before you start to ask the questions. Okay. But that's you know, another suggestion. Okay o a do you think we've done that to death? Yes. Right. I'd like to introduce a conversation about language now. See how we get on with this. The importance of language is something that we have come to appreciate, more and more in recent time. We refer to the language of power for instance. That's the language that politicians and others who have powerful position use in order to make the most of their authority. We also refer to the language of love. The special language that is shared by two people who love one another. Sometimes the word that they use, no only terms of endearment, er but other words, er special words to them, you know, are part of their own language of love. But there's also the language that destroys. Language that belittles, that if you like pushes down other people. And with our growing appreciation of the importance of language, there's been an upsurge in language that is sexless, reinforcing the belief that both male and female are equal. We're also trying to speak language which is not racist. Or ageist, or elitist. Having been at the Methodist conference last week, or fattist. We have a a very large brethren, er brother in the methodist ministry, and er when the mayor of Derby addressed the Methodist Conference, he said, you know, he like to come to these kind of events, and he'd talk about the specific sort of things. And he says, he always looks out to see who is the f the local Friar Tuck. And er this particular minister was all everyone was sort of looking in his direction and pointing. And er when you get up to speak at the conference, you have to give your name and the reason why you're there. And er when this chap got up to speak he said, Tuck, conference elected. l And brought the house down. And er someone else who was on the large side, also stood up and they all giggled at him, and he said he'd had enough of this fattist language. But he took it all in good part. But Jesus knew all about the power of language. Just as Jesus seemed to know about everything that there is in our life. And the way in which he used words, was incredibly powerful. For he had the bi the ability to take the ordinary things of life, and interpret them in an effective way. He spoke of a shepherd with his sheep. He spoke of a woman sweeping her home. And of a father's arguments with his two sons. That rings bells already. And he spoke of problems between landlords and tenants. And he used these things to illustrate his message about the kingdom of God. And of course if we can't interpret, God's kingdom, the Christian faith, in everyday language, how can we interpret it? If we can't make the gospel of Jesus relevant to today, how can we lead other people to faith? So what do we do? What is our experience of language in this church? Do we find that when we sit in worship, often the language that preachers use, especially when they use some of the so called theological language. They talk about salvation, redemption, sanctification, Christology,eschatology, Come on Jack, some nice long words. Yeah and all you know things that it's almost expected that you will understand what they mean. Which to be honest, a lot of people do not understand. And as someone once said, it's not the long words that we should worry about, it's the short ones. Yes. Sin. Faith. God. So you know, what's your experience of the language that you hear. Anyone want to say anything? I'm a great I'm a great believer in the fact that everybody should hear the gospel in their own tongue. Right. Therefore? Well er the language, they use. These words are I love them, I love them, redemption, and sanctification and so on, I love them, but er we've gotta put it in a different way. We've gotta put it in a modern, secular way or more secular. Right. Jesus did didn't he. secular way. Yeah. It's the theologians that are making it complicated. Well I think for most people who are coming into a church, seeking something, the inclusion of words such as you outlined, puts up an enormous barrier, Mm. and they would go away, full of misunderstandings, of self doubt. I mean there are a couple of those words I don't know what you're talking about, quite honestly. Erm I don't expect that my life will change immediately if I found out about them. But if someb if somebody put them in plain language to me, Yes. that I went home with, erm we had very good relevant local dialogue with the minister yesterday morning, simple things within twenty five miles of our experience, that made us all think very hard. I for one think that sort of thing, to people searching for something, makes a lot of impact. Would you say though that on the whole, the language that you hear uttered in worship here, is relevant, helpful and u easily understood. By all? Are you talking about the words or the message? Yeah two different things aren't they. I'm I think I'm talking about the words first of all. I think we can all get the flavour of what the message is about even if we don't understand all the language. I mean it's a bit like watching the television while you're doing the ironing. You can't be actually following the whole of the action all the time, cos you have to make sure you're not burning a hole in the shirt. But you get a general flavour of what the action is about, and you follow most of it. And I think that often, you know listening to sermons is a bit like that, especially as you don't concentrate all the time. So I think I've I mean you put me right, but I think I'm talking about the words, rather than the essential message. a problem with the words. Right. message It's very subjective isn't it. It depends on the skill of the communicator. Right. And how well they communicate. And I mean some of the people who lead our worship, are very stereotyped in their language. And then you, you know, they use the same phrases, and they don't communicate really. They stay where they are. Er they don't move us on or they don't move me on in my thinking, and they don't lay down the charge, cos they're predictable and and they're using . I think there's one thing though that we've got to avoid, if if we're going to pass any of our information across, and that's the element of fashion. That, you know, in many of the words you came up with to start with, there's an element of of fashion, in avoid ageism, avoiding sexism, and things like that. And we we don't want to make that the end in itself. We had a good guide I think when it was at one of the er welcoming services to the new ministers, I don't think it was yours,before yours. Geoffrey made a comment about select preacher, because you don't particularly like the way he puts the message over. Pray for him, there will be a message somewhere. You know, I think this is the distinction that Bob was making about the words, and the meaning. If we look for the fashion that's the veneer, it's the meaning that's the more important. I I don't think I mean, to me it's a bit like, dare I say it, pandering to, other outside forces. As regards anything else. The issue is that you know we build ourselves round the church. And we mustn't let words and other fashionable elements, become too dominant. But is not the point that erm we want those who are concerned about fashionable elements, to be attracted by our worship, cos we want everyone to be attracted. And that we don't want to put up anything that'll be a stumbling block, to people coming. Which I think got some business circles. Right. Mm. And nothing to do with the running of . My experience, just to take one example of non-sexist language, and when I was in college in the mid eighties, it was the thing you know. It all had to be his and hers, or ours or whatever. Is that when you actually sit down and you you know we if we were to actually cross out the words that were sexist in the service book, you know, er and put the non-sexist alternatives in. like er we have sinned against our fellow men, you know that one we say in the prayer of confession. Now it's actually much more scriptural to say we have sinned against our neighbours. Cos we're supposed to love our neighbours, not our fellow men. And that is the non-sexist alternative. To fellow men. We have sinned against our neighbours. Now if we were actually to do that in our service books, which is what one of the things that the Methodist conference suggests we consider, just crossing out and putting in the correct non-sexists language, I bet you that eighty percent of our church would be up in arms. But my experience is also, if we'd bought the books that had been printed neighbours in the first place, no one would have noticed the difference. When you pray in non-sexist way. When you pray in a sexist way, those who are concerned about it notice. And therefore I believe it's worth making the effort to use non-sexist language, because no one notices, and using sexist language may just offend and put off one or two. And that's not what I'm in the business of doing. Now you you can use that then about all these other examples of you know elitism and er and er racism and that sort of thing. It's interesting how when you know, we meet the standard, nobody can take it i notice it really. Do you want to say something Colin? Well I think that's illustrated by printing off the words, I am your son, I am adopted in your family, I am your child, I am adopted in your family. Yeah. If you print the words,adopte child, adopted in your family. If the word, son, there, you the decide, sing child if you feel more comfortable with that, you're up in arms. Yes. You might as well go and and sing something else. Yeah that's right. I'm actually more concerned about, sort of this sort of stereotyped prayer language Yeah. that we get . Right. And er I don't think I'm being too sort of general here if I sort of quote the place of the local preacher or the the person who's leading our worship. sort of thinking, Ah this prayer is for the children, I'll pray for the wonderful world that God's created. Right. And that really does annoy me. And if kids have haven't shut off before then, they always get that prayer if the preacher is being particularly sensitive or insensitive to you know, You talk about a God of nature. In actual fact our children have feelings of joy and happiness and sadness just as we do, And they have they have the same emotions as we do. And I really do think that is poor. Do you believe that that the language then is not a big issue in our fellowship. Can anyone tell me why we put it on the list of things we wanted to discuss then ? I think you just I think you've hit it there. Right. The language is not an issue in our fellowship. Right. I think the Holy Spirit If we're to go outside the windows Right. The Holy Spirit is a bigger issue. The Holy Spirit is a bigger issue. A man can say a most extraordinary thing there Holy Spirit it'll come across. Right. It does in itself. I think er on the er the walls, bringing the people in, is, if they understand that they do not believe er or that that within their heart, then that's the difficulty that's the sort of bridge we've got to get over. It's hopefully through the understanding that they will believe but Yes the words are important to people's understanding aren't they? Yeah. They're not actually that im they're not important about bringing them to faith. Though understanding is perhaps the first step. Yeah. Mm. And er of course the point that Jack makes is the the point that brings them to faith is the work of the Holy Spirit, and not the work of anybody else. Is there anything I mean I think I know the answer to the question, but is there anything we can do to improve the language that's uttered in our church? To help it to be more acceptable, or is it already acceptable to those who do not yet attend? He says in confidence and faith. I think we could be more sensitive to those people who worship, for one reason or another, worship on their own. Right. was picked up in in the the church family service,church. Yeah. Yeah we discussed last week. Yeah. Yeah. Last time we met sorry. Okay. I would think it could be helpful, now and then, to have simple explanations of some of the words used say erm where we're building to a communion service, Yeah. for instance. And whilst in the membership classes, we go through an explanation and a discussion, after that we tend to just repeat them. Mm. And erm maybe, the text for the day could be, some of the language we used in services like that. Well actually it is, yes it is. Yes. Yes I mean that's very important. I mean one of the things I was taught when i my training for work with children, was that erm, it's alright to use big l long words, for children, as long as you explain to them what the words mean. Er it doesn't mean that you always got to use simple language. Because I mean children need to grow and understand what longer words mean as well. And you can talk about erm er adoration, shall we say, as long as you explain to them what adoration means. Erm and I think it's exactly the same with some of the words that you know that I quoted earlier. That we can use them, but we must not always assume that everybody understand what they mean. And I think it's that hidden assumption that a lot of people find offensive . So you've got to be in the know, you've got to be in the club, to understand the jargon. Mm. I think it's just into my mind, I was assuming you meant the the free speech within the church, the the open prayer and the and the sermons. Which I don't have a problem with. But the thing I've noticed coming in, for the first time,a and and two prayers spring to mind, one's Right. and one is the purity. Er I just can't think of the words I mean, but if you if you run through those, it's quite off-putting. And I I remember being eight, nine, ten, eleven years old, and knowing them all off by heart, Yes. and not knowing what they meant. Mm. Hadn't got a clue. We worthily magnify thy Holy name. And er We are not worthy even to gather up the crumbs under your table, oh gracious Lord. Yeah. It is thy nature always to have mercy. Yes. It's er it isn't it isn't everyday language, and I'm not sure that it helps us express what we really want to say. You you could take it a step further and with seeing that on the paper yesterday morning in service, we read the twenty third psalm. Try reading that and explaining the words of that, to somebody who has no knowledge of the Christian faith, I thought was quite a challenge. But some of the hymns we sing as well. Right. Right. Well perhaps we ought to give people a s a a list a piece of paper and a pencil when they come into church one day, and say, Write down all the words that you hear today, or sing today that you do not understand. And make it completely anonymous. It'd be an interesting exercise wouldn't it. Mm. Well we could er make a dictionary. So somebody came, I don't know who it was, recently and observed communion. different type of communion. Nigel brought an alternative liturgy. Didn't he. Was the language in that simpler? It wasn't that much simpler. No. It was different. different. I mean the Methodist Church has launched six new liturgies for communion, as experiments to see how people react to them. Can you remember we used on at Lent. On for Lent and Passinontide. Erm and I thought on the whole, the language was scriptural. I mean it was just lifted from the scripture and and put into a prayer or whatever. I I mean I found it, you know, I mean very strong from that point of view. Er but it wasn't particularly everyday language. And why can't we have a communion service in everyday language? That surely could be rewrote the prayers on the lectern. And come out with a more meaningful prayer. That we could introduce to our neighbours first they came through the door. I think you've got to be careful though. If you go too far down that road, you lose your sense of awe and wonder, which I think is important, personally. That I agree. Okay. Bill, you don't need to keep putting your hand up, it's okay. We're very informal really. You started off by erm talking about how er Jesus tackled the problem and er it seems to me that that erm is what is a very great example really. I mean he'd he'd use so often the experience of the people who were listening, so when a went down to , they all knew what he was talking about. Right. And then he would say the Kingdom of of Heaven, you may or may not know what that is depending Mm. on whether you're in the club or not, but he said. Yeah. The Kingdom of Heaven is like this. Yes. and he and erm I think if we kept if we kept that at the front of our minds, Mm. when we used it. Yeah. Erm er or or tackling issues like you know, sanctification or Yes. And then I think that help. Absolutely I mean i the the the trouble I'd find it is is is the right way round to tackle it. I mean you could think of a brilliant illustration, and then you work the message out from it, which is the wrong way round. Cos you're actually supposed to think of what the message, the essential message you want to get across, and then work your illustration out accordingly. Now that's the hard thing. Now I'm I mean I give you an example. Tomorrow I go into Radio Nottingham to record three more thought for the days. Three ninety second slots. I'm talking about cold sausages, tidying up after the kids, and a school activity day. And you start with, I started with those three things, and worked out three essential messages. Not at all linked, okay. If you want to know what the messages are, you have to listen on Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday next week by the way. But you know if you wanted to talk about sanctification, as a for instance, that's growing in grace and holiness, becoming more the person that God wants us to be. As we grow in faith. More Godlike, more holy. Erm and I a work of God's grace a in us to make us like that. Now how do you then, starting from that standpoint, bring that you know into everyday language. You have to do either your own or somebody else's er bit of the story. Yeah. And we're not very good at that. No. We don't practise it, er we rely on er the sort of language form of the sermon which er is unchallenged largely, after the fifth . Okay. Because of our tradition of relying so much on the sermon. Mm. We do yes. And I don't resent that at all. But I can see you know I mean that in itself is a blockage to many people isn't it. Now I wonder how many people came to North last night because they knew there wasn't gonna be a sermon. They got a five minute pep talk but they didn't get a sermon. Interesting. Okay. Have we finished. I mean it's been a helpful conversation, erm you know I'm not s I you know you persuaded me, rightly or wrongly, that it's not that much of an issue in in our fellowship, but it's something that we do always need to be aware of. Mhm. The words that we use. I mean anyone who comes into contact with foreigners, and them trying to grasp our language, knows you know has an insight into how difficult into how difficult it can be for some some people. That's just just a little aside on that. The the most common thing I've come across. going round, is it still plugged in? It I think . No no it's not, he explained to me exactly what I had to do, before he went. Turn the tape over. That's right. Yeah. Okay let's move on from language then. Let's er just give a little bit more consideration to church family services. And er all age worship. Now I mean I bring it back to you on the agenda for two reasons. First of all because we said in the minutes last night, er last week, last time whenever it was. Further consideration is to be given to this topic, but it was agreed that it would be generally more helpful if we understand that family services, were not necessarily for those with families, but a celebration of the whole church. Therefore they should be renamed church family services. So I bring it back because we said we would consider it further. And also because the whole issue of all age worship, was one of the things that we put on the list of what we want to discuss. And I bring it to you in the context of our conversation about junior church. Cos Bill's mother wrote a very interesting letter to the Methodist Recorder last week. Which you've probably not read. Which basically says, if Friday Sunday school works, then let's have it. You know, it hasn't all got to happen on a Sunday. No. And one of the prime moves for all age worship when it first started, was to say, you know, if Christian education is going to take place at other times, than on a Sunday, then what do we do together, for all ages, in worship. You know if the children are not going to go out, and the adults are not going to have their own education classes, which let's be honest most of us don't attend or or have anything to do with. Then worship, has got to encompass all age groups. And so those who devised all age worship in the in the sort of early eighties or late seventies, when it was the thing, devised it either to be just worship, or to be both education and worship. Whereby the whole church family, broke up into groups for a period of education, and then came together for a time of celebration and worship. Which drew all the strands of all that they'd learnt together. Now this may be another way of solving problem. Of saying let's have Christian education on another day of the week, let's have all age worship, in whatever form, on a Sunday morning. And let's have our traditional Methodist preaching service, on a Sunday night. Now I'll throw all that into the melting pot, and we'll see what we come out with. Excellent idea. Now that is I mean all age worship every Sunday? Yes why not? Be a radical depar we'd have to learn an awful lot about what it really meant. None of this playing around with it like we do with our family services at the moment. Where you think of what this week's gimmick's going to be. If we're honest. It's always got some good theological or religious or Christian point about it, so I don't see that any barrier really exists to including any age group other night of the week. But I do see that that would perhaps to attain for young people again. As another draw on their time,homework etcetera. Yeah. Erm the little bit we do of Boy's Brigade Yeah. seems to be quite useful nowadays. It's quite interesting sometimes how you get a question back or you get closer to the young people as a result. Maybe we should encourage that sort of leap more, erm even perhaps other people in our church family, being involved in that. Mhm. I mean people who would not normally be involved with young boys or young girls, into a quarter of an hour of contact. That could provide a stronger link to sides. Does anybody want to say any more about our present church family services? Bearing in mind that I'm taking one in a fortnight's time. And we're having a baptism. Okay let's move on. I'm sorry I've lost me agendle now. What we gonna do now, Stella? You've taken my agenda. I've taken your agenda have I. Yeah, Well I've taken me own as well. Is it under there, is that it? Oh there's yours, there's mine. Thank you. Should children be allowed to receive Holy Communion, discuss. What's a scriptural point. What's the scriptural? Are you asking me? If there if there is a point scripture. I don't know whether there is or there isn't. Can I just say something? Yes. Let me write your name down . about necessarily taking it, but I think they certainly ought to be made aware of sort of what it involves and and what it really means. Cos I remember as as a little one, I hadn't got a clue,and the whole meaning of it was lost completely. Right. And I think when you're little you don't really understand and, unless your parents tell you, then Er the main stumbling bock block that people point to for this, is the I think it's in Paul's writings, when he says that the communion must not be taken unworthily or without you know due thought and and sincerity . sincerity You know, I can't exactly sort of quote you word for word. But you know, there is an instruction there, that we must, we must be careful, and prepared to examine ourselves in in all sincerity and truth, before we come to communion. Now traditionally the argument has run, has said. Well you know, if we take that scripture seriously, Mm. then certainly children should not be receiving communion. How do other faiths tackle that reading. That's not catholic view . I mean they encourage fairly early er Yes they do. confirmation. Their conception of salvation is a bit different isn't it? Well I'm not sure I know. I'm not saying we should No I don't really know the answer to the question. I don't know the answer myself. But it but it's often misinterpreted, as being of the right mind and having the right attitude, about understanding Yes. what they're doing. Now I mean many of the erm practices of religion I'm not sure I understand them all, but but I still take part in them. You know. Yeah. I don't understand how a car works, but I still drive it. Mm. What age are you talking about? Of a child? Well any you know what does it mat You know how how how any age? Er you know I think i er it's all up up for grabs really. I mean once you can eat and drink. Yes. You know. Why not? imagine if the family is meeting round a table, and the dish is passed round, and the children are not allowed to take any. I know a lass that was taking communion. Right. What age are we talking about? What This lass she was a w a woman. She was Oh right yes. she was born again . You'd certainly have to rewrite the communion service, for young people to understand it. Mm. They are smashing. Yeah. Yes. I think it's a case of, as Karen says, explaining things. Yes. Bringing the younger children into church just these last few weeks, Yeah. has created a lot of questions. I mean one little boy came in, and he said, What's that sword doing on the table? Aye. So I . And this time he did say, you know, the cross. And he wanted to know why the books were there and . You know there's so many questions that need answering . Yes. Erm because these are the sort of things that don't come over at school. They might tell them the stories, the bible stories at school, but I mean the general church Yeah. worship, they don't understand do they? No. But I should think it'd be quite simple to put across . The body, the represents the body, the blood, the wine represents the blood. That'd be sufficient would it Matt? Well it doesn't require a great deal does it. I mean if we're gonna do justice to communion, it's about remembrance, it's about thanksgiving, it's about celebration, it's about and and there's there's the corporate nature of it too. Coming together. Yeah. And and receiving together and eating together. Which takes us right back to you know, to the temple in Jerusalem, and sacrifices and all sorts. I'm not suggesting we should drag all these things up, but they're all important facets of what communion is about. Passover isn't it? Yes that was one of the bases on which communion is And the blood covenant you see comes into it as well doesn't it? Yeah. Once you start. Going back to your earlier words about the illustrations and the message, what are we trying to achieve. Are we trying to achieve, erm unity or bringing children in to do something in a corporate way. Or do we want them really to understand what they're doing first presumably. So our long term goal, surely is to allow children to have communion. So long as they understand or we have communicated to them, why we want them to do that. What it means. And at the moment I don't think we do communicate that. Now do you know i i if the feast of the Passover, did the children join in there? Cos Christ was Yes. just re-enacting that. The whole family would come together, it would be Yes a total family celebration. Absolutely. I mean people travel from all over the world to be with their family for Passover didn't they. I don't see what difference it makes, a child not understanding, there's plenty I don't understand. Cos the littlest one at the Passover was the one who answered the questions wasn't it ? Cos they asked these questions about why it was being held and everything. And the the child, the smallest child is trained to give the answers. child. Me my my view is this, for what it's worth, Er we have two sacraments in the Methodist church, Baptism and Holy Communion. Sacrament is to do with with God's free grace being available to all. If we say that children cannot receive communion, we'll als als ought also to s ask question about whether infants should be baptised. It's the same grace that we're talking about. And if infants are baptised, as they are in our church, then I would find it very very difficult to deny a child, to come to communion. And I believe that we should have a policy, whereby children would normally receive communion when they are in a communion service. And that includes older people, who are not yet confirmed or made members of the church. That's that's the first point. The second point is is to echo the er the words that Matt just said about that lady who was converted. John Wesley was very firm, that Communion was a means of grace. And when he talks about a means of grace, he means something that happens to you that can bring you to faith. And he used to cite several different means of Grace. And he believed as Matt, you know, gave testimony to the fact, that when you come to Communion you can actually be converted. And therefore to only say, Those who love the Lord can receive, is actually a denial that it's a means of grace. So that's why I always say, those who seek to love the Lord. Right. So that's the second thing. Er the third thing is that if we do accept that it should be a general practice in our church, the the parents of the children, who are within our church family, need to be told. And it shouldn't just something that's forced. And if they choose to withdraw their children from Communion, then that's their decision, not ours. Erm and that a you know and I would go along with everything we've said about educating children, and educating the whole congregation, let's be honest. And I have got a number of family services that just do Communion. And finish up with Communion. I mean we did have one at Easter time didn't we? Yeah. But but in in just the little few words you used then, I would have thought that many parents in this church would react positively. the difference between seeking the love, and loving, that expression that you used. I would have thought you'd get a very good response. And I I think the illustration about Baptism, hadn't really struck me before tonight. And I think it's very significant . Perhaps I'll write an article for Contact, erm along those lines and see what sort of response we get. But would there be anyone against. What can I do for you this morning? Ah it's the acne it's I ran out two weeks ago, so we've been on holiday I had to get those prescription . Oh. I made an appointment to se you sort of this week but that's Now it was working well. Yeah. Is it still working well? Yeah, it's about the same really. Right okay. But you had a bit of flare up A You flared up in last time you had came off it, didn't you? Temporarily. That's right, yeah, so I thought I'd best get it Yes. rather than run out Yes, no you don't want to er flare up, right, so Are you growing? No, I've stopped growing now You've stopped growing. Y I've had this all week. Oh I It's alright. Do you play basketball? Pie and peas. Well you've got two. I'm just going Aha now am I going to have strawberries or do I Oh I should keep the strawberries if I were you. Why? Strawberries are delicious. Mm. Strawberries are delicious, I don't think I'll have that. Are you having that one Tim? A nice baking apple. Leave those on the floor. Wait. I No we're not waiting. What are you doing? Oh. You're having that instead are you? Right, well I'll have the baking apple then. don't like . You've got three. Yeah, you don't like the biscuits do you? The wafers. Well Oh we are doing well. We haven't had anything horrid yet. Ah, here we come. Here we come. Horrid little flowers to eat. Ooh mashed potato. You've nearly won mummy. I've got I haven't won. Oh all I need now is a fork. Oh you just need a nice fork. And all you need now Ooh! What's that one? Nice. Mm good that'll away that naughty stuff. get rid of that horrible one. Look, that's what I had left. I don't think I'll have that. Oh a nice pudding. What shall I have? Oh I think I'll have the jelly. Yeah, jelly's nicer. There you are. Jelly jelly jelly. Because look, see that in there? Right now Well it's quite nice that is there's sultanas in it. Oh, what are you gonna do, jacket potato or chips? I you don't usually have that and that do you? Er dunno really, it varies. No, no chips. You're gonna leave the chips are you? Yeah. Keep the jacket potato. Right Tim, are you having those chips? You need some chips. Oh well, boiled potatoes, they'll do. Chips. Right, let's have a nice drink please. Oh dear. Ugh, a horrible. Tadpoles in the drink. Tadpoles? Oh they don't look like tadpoles. No, no that's a broken one. Mhm. I don't think I'll have I like You can have it look Tim and you've won. Oh that was a silly thing to do. I want that horrible . No no that's silly. That's not the rules of the game. You can't do that. You can only swap it for nice things. I want this one. No. Sausages! Ooh I'll have that instead of those. I think I'll have no I'm going to keep that Hold on Tim. instead cos I don't want Right Tim. Put that down. No. That's yours. You don't want that cos you've already got a nice one haven't you? Come on I want a nice drink please. Oh beans. Oh I'll have sausage and beans. Makes a change. Yeah sausage and beans is very There you go, do you want some peas. Ah yes. I've won. Just right. You've won. Again. Again. And you Well you could have won but you were daft and didn't take the right card. No. Oh you've won now. You're second. Now mummy's Let's see how long it takes for mummy. I'm gonna give this. Well you want that don't you? I I don't need a biscuit. Mm. Mm. Now. Oop another horrid drink. Come on, there must be a nice drink in there somewhere. There it is. A nice drink of water. So mummy was last. As ever. I don't want that pudding. Don't you? There aren't many other nice puddings. You'll have to have that baking apple then with the sultana in it. Ah. Have a horrible pudding. Ah! That's the one you had with tadpoles in it. Mum, do you like tadpoles? Oh I like tadpoles but not in my drink. Did you have to have this one? I did. Why did you have to have it? I I had this one. It was the first one I picked up. If it's the first one you pick up you've got to have it. I I had this one. Well why can't you put it back? Well I did in the end. I put it back instead of a milky drink or something. But why do you have to keep it? You have to keep the horrible thing if you haven't got anything else in the space. That's the rule of the game. Otherwise there's no game is there? place is empty, what shall I do? What's your favourite meal then? What's your favourite meal? Aha. Blackcurrant and pie What's your favourite Tim? Not necessarily in the game, just anywhere. What's your very favourite food? Nothing, not listening to me. Oh that's nice. Mm. I like this mum. And Chips and horrible pudding. I really need some chips. Yes. I need some, oh yes I want I need some I'll have some sausages. Sausages where are you? Come here. Well I had sausages . . Right I need a And that's for my pudding. Not that. Think I'll have a jelly for pudding. Yes. So I've won. So I won Tim. You haven't got any I won. Oh if you're silly with that the pieces will be missing by the time we want to play it next time. Go and fetch them back again. Timothy tummyache . I don't like having tummyache. Timothy tummyache. Why's it called a tummyache? Behind you. Well Why's it called a tummyache? why do you think it's called tummyache? Mum. Mm. When I'm ill I never ever get tummyache do I? You do sometimes. What? You do sometimes. When you were little and we first got the game you always used to want to get tummyaches and not the . Like Tim is now. Yeah. Like Tim is. Yeah. Except Tim's a bit older than you were at the time. There we are. Lid on. Right, who's got a story? Not me. I need to finish that new book Look. Story anybody? Look. I'm looking. Well I'm listening. Look over there. I know. It's switched on. On the video. I'm going to lift you up. Gracious me. I'm Ooh. Did he drop you? Yes. I didn't drop him. I was putting him down. Well you'll have to put him down a bit more carefully than that. Look. Look over there. Look if I put him down carefully but all he did was . Oh. I go to get a story He can't lift me up can I'm coming. What's your problem? a fly . A fly? I've just seen one but Well I wouldn't worry if it's out there. It'll go to the light. Flies always like the light. So it'll be flying round the light so it's no trouble to you. Why do they always like light? He won't come in here. They just do. Why don't don't they like dark? No. They always fly towards the light do flies, so it's no trouble. Why don't they go and fly near the dark? I don't know, but they just don't. Come on, lie down. I think there's somebody else at the door now. It's chaos tonight isn't it? Which door? Erm the front door. Do you need to go to the toilet again before you go to sleep? Jane is there someone at the door? Jane There's a stranger knocking at the window again Mrs . Right, would you like to find out who it is. Oh well that's kind. Hello. Who is it this time? Oh it's Dawn. Come in Dawn . I knocked It's chaos. Yes I'm coming down in a moment. I'm just just go in with Jane and have a nice time. Ooh there we go. Well how are you? Poddle in, make her a cup of coffee and things like that Jane. If she wants one. It's busy tonight isn't it? You alright. Why are people coming? I don't know, they're just coming to visit me. Alright? How did you know it was Dawn coming at the door? I didn't know it was Dawn coming at the door. I thought it was a stranger. I just heard somebody knocking instead of ringing the bell. And I thought somebody's at the door. And you thought it was Dawn? Mm. Right, up the ladders. Oh goodness. Ooh ooh. Oh right. Now don't shout any more please, just go to sleep. Right? Nighty night. But I don't feel right I might want some water . Well in that case keep getting down here and there's the cup. Right? Do I have to keep getting down? Yes. Unless you can lean over without falling out of bed. Mum you have to get it closer to the edge a bit. And then I might be able to get it. Well just don't fall out of bed. That's all I ask. Right? Night night. Oh dear me. I went out to the kitchen Who's had a clairvoyant? Er Rick's sister. She came round Sunday afternoon . No Saturday afternoon, Rick was hinting. Was he hinting? Rick was? Yes . Oh he wanted to do it did he? Did she go on? Trying to get rid of her. Oh Rick was trying to get rid of her? I'm impressed I must say. Yeah. And so as soon as she mentioned clairvoyants that was it. I turned me back, I walked out. And I'd got all me bits, different books out preparing for the crucifixion. And I'd got the Know me God Personally cos the words really stand out on that little green book. And I made sure it was where it couldn't be missed soon as she brought her cup out to the kitchen. And the next time she mentioned it I brought up church. Oh dear. Oh dear. And did she take her cup out? Yeah drink about tea . She tried to get Rick Sunday mor what do you do Sunday mornings Rick? I go to church, sat there you know? I go to church. Oh they're turning you are they? I said yeah we're try we're, no I said oh yeah he's he's and then she also said slightly different to him and I said well he's getting there thank you very much, yeah. And she said why don't you come swimming with us Rick? We go swimming Sunday mornings. Well I go to church. I'm going to church. I'm impressed. This is Rick? Yes I Oh yeah, I was really impressed, I was. Yeah. You'll have to remind him next time he decides not to bother coming that he's supposed to come in case In case you end up someone come and saying come on we're going swimming. We're going swimming. Yeah. Your sister might come. You'll have to come. Mm. So what you brought me then? It's in the kitchen. Ah. I wouldn't leave it till the morning. seen what it is under there cos You what? I said I wouldn't leave it till the morning. Don't leave it till the morning? No don't leave it till the morning. Why, what is it? Just remember Dot, it's the thought that counts. Is this from you or from Kirsty or from Graham? No it's just sort of well no it's just ah yeah that's a good one. It's from Graham. But really it's not? It's from Rick. It was from me but yeah it was from Graham, yeah. Don't leave it till the morning. It's from you? Is it your birthday tomorrow? Aha. You told me next Wednesday next Tuesday. Well next Tuesday's tomorrow. Next Tuesday is tomorrow, yeah. Oh it's a bun. Oh I thought it was next Tue I mean, a week on Tuesday. It's a green bun. Oh the candle! Oh you've you've dropped the candle out. Oh look. Aah. Right I shall have let me go and get the matches. I'm touched. Helps if you can find any matches. You what? I get confused when people just say next Tuesday. Don't eat it though. I ran out of sugar. As opposed to this Tuesday. this Tuesday . Has it got no sugar in it? Yeah. Yeah. Well the icing'll help won't it? I never thought I never thought of putting any icing sugar in Right. Remembering that my microphone is on and I will expect you all to sing Oh. What do you mean your microphone? After three Oh don't ask. Happy birthday to you. Happy birthday to you. Happy birthday dear Dot Dot tomorrow happy birthday to you . Thankyou so much friends . Hooray. Right that's the . Can I eat it now? If you really want to. If you're feeling brave. I'll have it with me coffee. There's gronnies lurking about in me coffee, I don't see why I can't eat me bun. Oh shut up. A little, a little It probably is vile. you couldn't do better. You know sugar in cakes before. What's the matter with him? Is that a child? It's cos we've sung happy birthday, they're Something about back on. Ah. He's got his cup of water and now he can't put it back on. Now you've saved her from eating it, this is the thing. I'll go Just go and sort him out will you? It's nice it's nice. Oh that's alright then. Mm. Okay. It's very nice, I'm very touched. Thank you very much. Alright. I thought it was silly enough. I feel well loved. I thought it was silly enough, I really did. Yes I decided on that. Mm, has to be silly Oh yeah for you, yeah. Thank you very much. If it's from me it's gotta be silly. Mhm . Oh you're not doing that thing. Take that book off her quick. piano lesson. Yes. Oh enjoy your piano lesson. Yeah. But don't enjoy the no yes Oops. I'll just go. At least not just now. Right-y-o. Are you in a car? Where have you put it? I yes. Up there a bit. It's rather cluttered with cars isn't it? Yeah it's a bit Yes it was a bit. Just a little bit. Right. Good. I'll see you another day. Thursday. Thankyou for calling. Alright. Bye. Bubye. Have a nice day tomorrow. Oh yeah. We might get this piano lesson done soon. Not to worry. What with one thing and another. So far we've not been it's not been like this has it? No. Until today. So that's pretty good going. Mm. Just put it down. Right Ooh. Shall we start with the butterfly? Again. Again. I just want to check your fingers. As I wasn't watching first time round. And this time instead of speeding it up so we're whooshing off like a like a bee okay . I thought we were going on a bit. Going . We'll go a bit slower shall we? We'll go a little, trifle slower but rather than no it's not so much a trifle slower as steadily. If we're gonna set off fast then we carry on fast. Fast. If you're gonna start slow stay . Right. But also there's a word here and it says Ooh lightly . lightly. That means do not thump on the piano. Right? Butterfly, okay. Just let me switch this thing off cos they don't want to hear our piano lesson do they? Oh no, I don't think so. And I don't think we want Well, when you fancy really. Twenty tapes to fill so you can keep going forever . Twenty tapes you've got to fill? Mm. So if you did it all in two days? Well you wouldn't. And that's I mean they probably you probably wouldn't fill all twenty tapes. Well when are they coming to take it back? Friday. Oh so it's a week thing? Mm. So she'd have it for a week. Mm. brilliant. So far so good we've had erm church conference and been sick so I mean yeah that's Oh wonderful . Wonderful combination. I do hope that doesn't go on tape. What, the being sick? Yeah. Unfortunately it was with Andy on Sunday morning so it wasn't actually here with the noises. Well there we go. What a scream. He's lost his front tooth, have you seen? What Beethoven? No you Dillys Yes I did actually. Yeah. Carefully took it off me and washed it himself cos last time I lost it down the plughole you know? Did you ? Mm. Don't blame him for washing it himself or the fairies will never come. I know, well they did. The fairies came anyway. Mm did they? Mm. didn't. Mm. Big tooth this was so I think I left an extra five p Did they? for a front one. Good that wasn't it? Bless him. So how's he coping with his starter With his starter book. It's good innit? Oh fine, yet Jo was just saying on the phone there that she'd seen him in a catalogue. Really? Yeah, she said she was thumbing through this publications catalogue Ooh I say. in her new capacity as head of department erm in the school. They're starting a pre-prep thing Oh yes. You know she works for a choir school? Oh no you Does she? don't know anything about her do you? She works for a choir the choir school at Durham cathedral. Oh yeah? And erm they're starting this pre-prep thing in September and she's gonna be in charge of it. I mean that Oh. that means nothing at the beginning because there's only about ten boys and she'll be in charge of them all . Her and her department, but expands Ooh. then she'll be able to choose a staff. But she's got to er kit it out and everything. Oh. It's quite exciting really. Has she got the pennies to kit it out with, that's the thing? Well they will have in a private school cos if they don't have the pennies they put up the fees. Can I have some more milk? Yes. Am I supposed to eat first or open these first? It's up to you. Well, I'll just have to open something Yeah. and then I'll open this to mummy bit. Ooh it's got Tim in. To the best mummy in the world. Ooh there's a Tim, I'm carrying Tim upstairs. To mummy with love. Happy birthday from Tim and Christopher. Kiss kiss kiss kiss kiss kiss kiss. You did that well Tim. And so did you. I did the kisses. I could tell you did the kisses it's in black . And you wrote to mummy. It's very good. That's it. Very nice. Thank you very much. I'll put them up there That's me going up. That's a nice envelope. We'll have to hang on to that. I'm already down. I go upstairs. To mummy from Christopher. Right have we said thank Tim before we start. No right we have to say thanks. You have to say thankyou. amen. Amen. Thank you for our breakfast on mummy's birthday. Amen. Amen. From Christopher. It's a big something. And that one's Tim. Oh that's Ooh gingerbread boy. Seven and a half inch cookie cutter. . That's nice. Thankyou very much. We shall have to make some biscuits this afternoon. Yeah. Oh it's a huge one isn't it? Cor look at that. And can we help? When we have one of those we shall have to chop it into little bits to eat won't we? Cos otherwise it's rather a lot to eat for one person. Oh look at this one. To mummy from Timothy. That must be the other one. Shh. the box. There's a box on there. Ooh A dinosaur. They're dinosaurs. I can't get into them. Six dinosaur cutters. Oh that's fun. Six metal dinosaur cutters. Tim chose that one. I think these are perfect. Well well well we have to eat them. Yeah, these'll be a better size for biscuits I think. That'll be more of a size for a I don't know what. A very large cake. I don't which the best. I'm gonna put these in here. I dunno what kind of dinosaurs they all are. Oh yes look at that lot. Erm think of a . One of those, is that a pterodactyl? I'm not very well up on my dinosaurs. Do you know ? Brontosaurus, that looks like one. You've got a book about it haven't you? Mm Weetabix book. Mm that's right. Weetabix. Well thank you very much Tim, that's lovely. Did you choose that ? I never. Yes. We all at the same shop. Oh lovely.. It it's a little present on there. Look there's another I owe you a cheque present. for however much it costs or whatever new clothes you would like. Ooh. That's a bit that's a bit risky isn't it? Mummy can we help you make them? I'm sure you can Tim. That would be lovely. To my wife. Oh look here's all the washing. I want you to relax on your birthday so first I'm going to do all the laundry next I'm going to do all the dishes and then I'm going to vacuum the whole house. There's just one thing I need to know before I start what does a washing machine look like? .I think you know what a washing machine Hardly. It's a present. It's it it's a little one. That was a very good card where did you find that one? a look in there? I don't know what that is. Don't you? No. No, they weren't with me when I bought that. They know what the other thing is. I know what the other thing is. Oh you're determined that I should use my camera. Film, thankyou daddy. Oh the gingerbread family cutters. Ah yeah but this'll be little ones. That's a huge big one you see? This is very special. I'm not quite sure what to do with this one. But I'm sure we'll think of something. Mum, there was a rabbit but we didn't really want a rabbit. Oh. I've put him in there. So we didn't buy a rabbit cutter. You stay in there mister gingerbread boy. Gingerbread family cookie cutters. Mum Yes? when I had afforded a nice, that when someone holding it you can have a little Oh. Ooh. gingerbread man. A baby gingerbread man. And a mummy gingerbread lady. Oh that's a big one. Tiny one. Th that must be a little girl one do you think? And this is a little boy one. And that's a big mummy one. Another And that's a daddy one. It is fun isn't it? That's Mum that's Well we've got a granddad and a one. A daddy one. . Right. Well we've got that huge one then they go down in size all the way. They're good though. I I just gonna look at these little ones. All we need now is some Can't get it back in the box now. But how do you make the mouths for them? How do you make what? The mouths? The mouth. It's a Well you'd have to use erm little one. sultanas and currants and things like that. And that's the Or a bit of erm you know those cherries? a boy one. And who's that one? A baby? Is it? Dunno. No cherries would be for the eyes. Glac cherries. No no no no. Little girl. That might be a little girl Tim. If you chop glac cherries you can make them up Who is this? like a smiley mouth. And eat them? who's is Or those orange and lemon things. ? I think that's a little girl. Yeah. You can call her what you like. Sally. Yeah Sally. I can't get these back in now I don't think. Two two Sallys. Do they go this way round? There's two Sallys. Two Sallys. There's only one more parcel left there. Lots of presents. Cos look what I'm wearing, I'm wearing what grand and grandpa gave me. Mm very very smart. They all her clothes for her Wh for her birthday. And I got new trainers. Look at those bright new white trainers never heard of before on my legs. I see the trainers before. And this look. You haven't seen Mummy. these before have you? I I've seen them in shops. You've seen them in shops. Mum. Why won't this go back in? I dunno. We never got them out in the first place. So we don't know. That was very wise. put those on there. I've got nine sultanas in here. I think we shall definitely have to make biscuits this afternoon. No I think I'll just have erm something in my bowls. I have to eat, as I open these other things. oh! You can't reach them over there. The letters now mummy. What would you like to eat ? I'd like Rice Crispies but we haven't got any out . Mum, if I get the Rice Crispies Do you want some Rice Crispies? Where are they? Er Did you say you bought some? I did buy some. Ah But they're not in the cupboard? No. Mum They're probably on the top shelf in the cupboard. On my birthday Yeah there they are I could have but I don't want too much rubbish around. No. So I'll open presents after I've opened all my Thank you. New Rice Crispies. That's the one we got in that box. Superhero torch pens we can send off for now mm so. Instead we can't get that silly old thing. Why, what did we have before? That zapper thing? Mm we've got a lot of tokens for that haven't we? Where's the letters? Where's the letters? On my knee. Mum. Mm. Was it film? It's for my camera. Oh Collect all three. Oh I think you get it in here somewhere. Oh no start saving your tokens. Eight tokens for one of these amazing pens. Eight? That's not very Batteries not included. Er can you get ? So there's no batteries in there? No, you have to go and buy your own batteries. Oh. Er can you did I have my sugar? Well, what kind of batteries, big ones or little ones? Cos we've got any of them. We've got big ones or little ones haven't I don't think you need any sugar do you? we mummy? Yeah. We've got loads of batteries floating round at the moment. We've got an old I don't think there's any milk in there. I haven't got any sugar cos I didn't. I've seen two little ones mum. You don't need sugar necessarily do you? Yeah. There. Don't take it all in the same place. Mix it about around a bit. Hope you appreciate the best pottery to celebrate occasion. China? Oh yes dear. I hadn't noticed to be honest. It was deliberately . I'm impressed. You mean it wasn't cos the last lot wasn't washed up? No no no no no I thought a special celebration. Need the best only. We all all gave you cutters didn't we? You did didn't you? It was very nice. I think it was a hint But I didn't know that we need some extra cooking going on in this house. I didn't know daddy gave me you this film. Mm. Mum, there's a special one here because it's you will have to be Mm. I gave you that film. Can I have half ? Yes, you can have half. I have to have one. Oh look, grandma's sent me something that you can push out to stand up. No that's mine. Can I have a look? No that's mine. You have to push those things out The half? Yeah. and then they stand up. A frog? Mm. A rabbit He had the other half. You don't see bunnies with do you? You don't see ducks with a bow-tie on. Just those sharing ones left. That's the sharing one. Yes. You see ducks with bow-ties on? Mum, have you ever seen a duck with a bow-tie on? No. ducks with a bow-tie on do you? And a dog with a ? Mummy. Mm. Mummy. Yeah? An owl waiter That's a cherry one. Is it? Right. Did you crack this out? Just a that was clever. This is just a friendly hi and then inside it says from I, and she's made it into Irene. No, we'll we'll wait a bit. That's the sharing one. Why is it a sharing one? Why's it not mine? That one's mummy's and that one's yours. Th oh that's the sharing one. share a bowl with you. Oh. I'm going to share that bowl with you. You're gonna share this one with you. Mm. That's all mummy's actually. It's granny and grandpa with a great big bouquet of flowers there. Come on! What? I'm doing my best, but I can't eat and open cards at the same time. Have you opened all of the presents mum? Mm. Except this one. Oh good. And I had swimsuit from grandma do you remember? Mm. Whoa! Ah Money from Auntie Mavis. She always sends money to us doesn't she? I know. It's very nice isn't it? Mm. So you get more money then. The next person in our family is me birthday. Isn't it? Oh dear. Auntie Mavis has only been out for five to ten minutes twice cos of her knee. Really? You know she's got a funny knee? Mm. I've finished So how did she this letter. Did she have to go ? Which day we How did she get a letter mum? Which day? Erm How did that letter? Which which day is it? It's Tuesday. Tuesday. It's Holly Cottage day. It is. You're going to Holly Cottage. Christopher goes to school. I'll go to work. And you're And mummy will have a whale of a time. What are you gonna do? But What? it's going to be something special happening at lunchtime is it? Mm. I'm gonna come for you for lunch from school. Mm. And we're going to go out for lunch. Where are we going to go? Tesco's. Tesco's? That'll be nice . I won't be there. It'll be just you and Timothy and mummy and grandma. Cottage pie? All of us? Yeah. Not me cos I'll be at work. But the rest of you. I love cottage pie. But daddy's having lunch at work, aren't you daddy? I think so. That's supposed to be the idea. special at work. I've had I love cottage pie. Look at all those sweet looking cats. Where? There, on that card. When we're in Tesco's we'll have to make sure we've bought the ingredients for all these biscuits we're gonna be making for the rest of the Erm mixing the big bits bits bits bits. I'm impressed. I don't think I've ever had a card from Keith and Sue before. How did they know? Mum to make the eyes mum we could have sultanas. To make the eyes. It's known as a hippo-bath-day on this one. Is it? Hippo-bath! Mum, just one more letter is there? Mhm. No, you've finished that. Can you what? Watch something on the telly? Is it not exciting enough having me open my presents for you? Ah a letter this time. Ooh. Mummy it's a clever letter. Happy birthday birthday er no it says happy birthday. We haven't heard if Jill has got our present from us. I mean Haven't we? Oh A very happy birthday. Do you think it's cos she hasn't? Mum it says happy birthday. A very happy birthday That wasn't all that long ago was it? No, but when she sent this you'd think that maybe she would put in it Mummy. by the way, thank you for This is a sharing one. That's a sharing one, yes. That is the sharing one mummy. That's the sharing one with you for me. Mm. And me. No. Yes, I want a square. And you want a square and mummy want a square. No that's mummy's that one. No. It's a sharing one. It's mine. There's nothing in it. Is that the ? Nothing in it? No. Yes there is. There is really. May I have some more to eat? there, isn't it mum? Ooh. Ooh er. A purse. Purse Mum. Here you are. A weeny weeny purse. Foam bath gel. margarine. Gel? Forget-me-nots. Three sachets. These is not gonna be enough. Forget-me-not Three sachets of Woods of Windsor concentrated foam bath gel. Empty the contents of one sachet under running hot water and enjoy a fragrant relaxing bath in the luxurious foam with Tim helping you get washed. I'm sure it Who Danielle . This looks very superior. Mummy, margarine for you. What is it? Don't put that in the way. Sorry. It's a Cos look. Don't put that in the way. Thank you. Is it a ? Mum did you get that necklace for your birthday? Yes. But why did you get it too late? What do you mean too late? I got it early. I got all these things early cos when I was at granny and grandpa's they gave me some money. And I was able to go and shop without everybody else helping. Remember on that day we went on that minibus down to the You all went on the minibus and the train station. with daddy and I swanned around the shops. Daddy? Mm. Remember? With daddy and you. With daddy. Yeah. You were with me, do you remember? We went on that minibus And I went round the shops. looked at some trains and then went back on the D M U. You were with me. That's right, and you were with me. That's right. Well while we were doing that mummy was being all these clothes ready for her birthday. So she's looking very very smart today. And my swimsuit. Do you remember I bought my swimsuit, my blue one? Are you wearing it? Well I'm not wearing a swimsuit but I'm wearing the other things. What about showing daddy it? What, the swimsuit? Mm. He's already seen it . Have you seen the new ? Well well we haven't seen it. but I think I've s seen actually swimming. We haven't seen it. Did you have it on when we were at Newtown baths? Yes you have. Yeah I haven't. I have. Has Tim seen it? Yeah. Yes you have you silly. I didn't I now. You're not looking at it now. Well has it got money in already, that purse? Has it mum? Has what got money in? That purse. It's not a purse love it's for erm soap and you know toothbrushes and things like that. You haven't got margarine on. you take your own you can take your own stuff Why? in your own bag now can't you? I like it without. What? I can take my own stuff in my own bag, yes. And I like ma mine without margarine. What? Erm But does daddy have to share with us in our bag when we Well we all share together don't we? What? We all share together really. So I'm going to share with you in yours really? Mum. Well if it's a special occasion you would take it in your own. Oh where's daddy's gone? If you were going on holiday by yourself Mm. you would wouldn't you? True. But I can't think of an occasion when I'd go by myself . What? I can't think of a time when I would be going by myself in the near future. I can't have marmalade. Why can't you have marmalade? Because I wanted daddy's. Well leave that. I wanted daddy's. Oh I've put it away. I want it. Well you can't have it love. What did he want? He wants daddy's knife to use for the marmalade. But he can't cos daddy's already put it in the kitchen. But where is my toast? In your tummy I expect. But I had only half and where's the other half gone? It's all in my tummy. Has he had a whole? He hasn't had any yet. He's just trying to get it in. Want this with daddy's knife. Mum but where is my other half because I want another bit. No. What? You haven't got one. But I had half. You're the, you're the little boy who was sick the other day. And I don't want any You've been sick. But I haven't had anything on the other piece and I want something on. Oh. I didn't be sick. I want No you weren't sick were you? Come on you, get that marmalade on there. Shall I help you? Think daddy's went in the washing. I don't like my The washing was on the and the bowl was It feels too hot. I don't like it . Not now it's alright. What? Not now you're not. Not now. I am a bit there. Oh. I'm hot. Feel it mum. No you're not. There. Oh only normal. I want a this knife. But is it going away? If you were cold you'd be dead. If I have this knife Mm. What? it goes all over If you feel cold you'd be dead. Why? You just are. Part of you being alive is that you're warm. You have to be warm to be alive? Mm. Is that why you have radiators? Mm. But the people who go out in the cold all the time. Well they've usually got er lots of clothes on haven't they? But Tim hasn't You haven't. You've got pyjamas on and . I've got a pirate's hat on. You haven't got dressed. Look I've got a pirate's hat on. You you haven't got dressed. I've got a pirate's hat on. Nobody's got dressed yet. Nobod yes you Well I have. Ah. You haven't. And you haven't. I'm I have. my pirate's at on you if you haven't got dressed by now. Mum I want marmalade to put on my toast. You've eaten your toast. But I want half. You can't. Want to tell daddy if it's gone. Cos I don't know where it has gone to. It's in your tummy. Mum there's not more, there's more presents to come yet isn't there? Is there? Grandma hasn't given you anything. Well grandma has cos she's given me a swimsuit. Oh. People keep giving me money you see and I keep going and spending it so so it's not quite like your birthday cos on your birthday you get lots of presents don't you? Yeah. Mm. Hello mummy. Hello daddy. There are more yet. Where's your Erm don't look in in the fridge. There's something near the bottom of the fridge. Don't look in the fridge near the bottom. Well I mean you can look in the fridge but don't look to see what's near the bottom. Right. It's wra it's wrapped in a bag so. Right. Where? I haven't even noticed you'd put something in there. It must have been in there last night. No. Oh just this morning? Yes. Where've you been this morning? Oh no no no I'd had this hidden somewhere else before you see. Oh. But then you thought you'd better put it in the fridge? Yes. It's it's been in the drawer. Mm. It's been in the drawer. Not that particular I hope you won't tell mummy our secrets anyway. Right. I'll have a look. It's these two that will go looking not me. We could have a look. No. No no Erm erm Yes dear? We could have gonna say? I dunno. I'll try and be home before tea, in reasonable time. Shall we go and have a look at the other Th be quiet. because I want some toast. You've had Be quiet He's had toast. I want Well you said you only wanted half. I think he should only have half actually. I want the other half. You're gonna go out to at lunchtime. Ooh. Going out to lunch. he can get back to normal he can come home and have a big bit of toast. I wanted your knife. No I want another half because I want something on the other one. Haven't got my knife here have I? I had no marmalade. Well who's fault's that? Not ours. I don't want That's your knife. I found your knife. Have you? Okay, can you put it on the edge of your plate and then we'll have a song or I want more toast . What song would you like Christopher? Put it through the hatch. Actually it belongs on my plate Tim. It's mummy's. Give it to mummy. It's mine. Put it through the hatch. Timothy. It's mummy's Thankyou. Right. Jesus' Love is Very Wonderful. Or Who's the King of the Jungle. Who which one would you like mummy? I'd like Who's the King of the Jungle. What do you want? And you'd like Jesus' Love is Very Wonderful? Right we'll have that. We'll start with that one. Jesus' love is very wonderful, Jesus' love is very wonderful, Jesus' love is very wonderful, oh wonderful love. It's so high you can't get over it, so low you can't get under it, so wide you can't get round it. Oh wonderful love Who's that? Who's the king of the jungle? Ooh Ooh. Who's the king of sea? Bubble bubble bubble. Who's the king of the universe? The king of you and me. I tell you J E S U S, yes he's the king of me he's the king of the universe, the jungle and the sea. Bubble bubble bubble ooh ooh . Mum, you don't blow violins. I beg your pardon? It's meant to be a drink of coke. You need your eyes testing. I drawed on that. And it's . It looks like a funny Right. Shall we have a prayer? Mhm. Ah I haven't had my song. Well you can have a song in a minute when we've had a prayer. Oh, why does that say on there? Cos I need to go to work now because I'm gonna be late for work. Right. Right. Heavenly father we thank you for mummy's birthday. Thank you for all the fun and excitement we can share. And please help us today as we go our different ways to work, to school, to nursery. Please pray that you'll be with each one of us and that we'll enjoy today with grandma and all the different things we'll do. You'll keep us safe and happy. Amen. Amen. We went on the swing when we gardening. Were you? You went on the swing? What song do you want Tim? Bold. Be bold. Be bold. Be bold. Be strong. Be strong. For the lord your god is with you. Be bold. Be bold. Be strong. Be strong. For the lord your god is with you. I am not afraid, no no no. I am not dismayed. For I'm walking in faith and victory. Come on and walk in faith and victory. For the lord your god is with you. Boom Boom . Have you had any more tea mummy? Do you want some more? I think I'd quite like a little bit more please. Right . If you could pour some tea in the tea in the milk I mean I think I would like it . In the milk? Bubye everybody. What are you doing to all my pressies? Ooh Goodbye mummy. Have a wonderful day Look mummy I can balance. Look it's like a slide. It's like a robot. Look it stays up. Mm. Goodbye everybody. Bubye. It's like a robot. You know how it Don't lose the film will you? It's it's it's like a robot. We don't want we haven't lo we won't Thank you for the card. Goodbye Tim. Do you want a kiss, or do you not? lose it mummy. You will make it lose. Bubye everybody. Bubye daddy. Bubye daddy. When I toast it doesn't drops on the floor outside. Mum. Mm. I just say bubye mummy, daddy. That's a triangle. That's a triangle. Be quick Is that a triangle? Be quick cos I want to say bubye daddy. Go on then Tim Go on then. I want you come . Look that's a triangle. Come here and I'll show you. He's gone. He hasn't. If you open the door quick. Look that's a triangle that little bit. Mm. There you are, he's going now. Come on, quick. Oh dear This is crazy. Timothy come round this side please and you go round that side now. Tim, this side please. You're not to climb on there, you've got to go past it. Why? Because it's silly the way we're going on. Oh. Look. Yes. Just leave it and come and sit on your seat. Ooh. Come on. Sit in on your seat. You do need your seatbelt on. Put it on please. I know it's not very far, but even so. If we have an accident you'll need it. bump into another car. put my stick in the porch. You've put your stick in the porch? Right, that's okay. I've forgotten it. Mum. It's still there isn't it? Why do you It doesn't matter. Don't worry, just leave it there. Have you got yours in? Is your seatbelt on? No. You'd best put it on quickly. Mum Well in the garage it's a little bit different because there's only the garage to hit isn't there? So if you hit the garage you're going very very slowly and you might just give yourself a jolt but you wouldn't hurt yourself quite so much. Mum what's the noise? What's what noise? That noise. The car. Car. It's cos you're travelling in a Metro. You're used to travelling in a Rover. You're used to travelling in a Rover. This one's all shaky. It's so old. But it does the job. Gets us there. too old. Ah hey. too old. Think it's got too old. No it's fine. There we are, there's Mark's house. Right. Now have you got all your things Christopher that you need? You stay there Tim. Don't go undoing things. I want to go in Christopher's seat. No you just stay there cos you can get on Christopher's seat when we come home cos he won't be here. Come on. Can you shut the door. Shut the door. Sounds like in the bedroom up there. Sorry Ha thank you very much Mark. Come in. Thank you so much. Don't be silly. Stop it. Sounds as though you're lively this morning. Aah! I think he's alright. Are you better? He was sick on Sunday. By the time yesterday came round, by lunchtime he could have come really but . You never quite know do you, how they're gonna Oh no, no He's gonna go swimming anyway so that'll put him back if Yeah . Okay. Bye. Ta ta. Christopher hasn't shut the door. Has he not shut the door? Perhaps he's going to wave to us. No I think they have shut the door, haven't they? They haven't. They haven't. They haven't. We'll go to Tesco's today. I want to get some petrol. Yeah. Mm. I wonder what you'll do at nursery today. What? I wonder what you will do at nursery today. Hope it's still games. Games? There'll be some games there. What's your favourite game? Postman Pat. Postman Pat snap? Yeah. You haven't played that for a bit have you? Where's it gone? It'll be in the drawers I expect. You can always go and get them out, if you want to. Where's it gone? It'll be in the drawer. Well where's it gone in the drawer? Well I don't know. Have you looked for it? No. Well if you go and look for it I expect you'll find it. Do you think it'll be sand or water today? What? Do you think it will be sand or water today? What? Do you think there'll be sand or water today? Think it will be sand. You think it'll be sand. Why do you think it's sand today? It was water last week wasn't it? So it probably will be sand this week I would think. Yeah I think it will be sand. Cos the water soaking wet. No, you won't get soaking wet with sand. Hopefully. Cos with sand you don't get soaking No. We put water in our sand. Do you? What, so that it sticks together then it makes things? Yeah. Mm. If it's dry it sort of won't stick together will it? It won't make things. Mind you it's nice for pouring. You don't have to have sand but it's rather nice. We some petrol. No we're alright. We don't need petrol right this minute. Cos at lunchtime we're going to go to Tesco's. And that will be a good place to get petrol cos it's cheap and we shall need a bit then. We're not desperate for petrol but it would be nice if we filled up with it. Cheap at Tesco's. Yeah. one person . Going to be one. Going to be one person. Yeah. Which means One person driving. Ooh. There's an ambulance. An ambulance is hospital. Yeah. Or it might be taking somebody to hospital. Didn't seem in much of a hurry though did it? So I don't think there was an emergency. Come quickly cos there's a car on its way. Where? Here. That red one. It's gone now. Yeah. Come on then. It's a dustbin day. It is a dustbin day. It's not a dustbin day for us though. Our dustbin day was yesterday. cars. Can you hear the wood pigeon? The ducks are here today. No, no ducks out today. They must be still asleep. Where are you gonna go? What are you gonna do? there's someone I know. I know. It's the same all the time. Oh yeah aren't they? Where are you going to go? I think it's the initial sort of shyness of it all, you know? Going from one place to another. Ooh. She's a real teacher in school. Sometimes. Sometimes. Are you a clever reader? Would you like to get you a book? Before you break a leg could you . I can't get up. She can't cope. Oh dear. What are we going to do now then? What are you going to do Tim? You don't know. How about a Postman Pat jigsaw, ha? Oh I know what you fancied on the way over wasn't it was it Postman Pat snap? What are we gonna do dear? Oh they're very smart trainers Dot. Well it's my birthday you know Lil. Oh is it today? Mm. Oh happy birthday. So I'm wearing my birthday things, you know? Thirty five today . Happy birthday. They're very nice. Thank you very much. They look very very expensive. Well they weren't. They looked it but I got Adidas I got erm however much money it is off you know. I was Oh yes yes yes. walking down the high street and Oh good. And what did you take this morning, Postman Pat? Well it's Thomas today he's got. Thomas, sorry. Thomas the Tank. Come on really. Happy birthday Dot. Thank you. You're Or something. Right. Mum, who's birthday is it? Oh it's Tim's mummy's birthday today. That's nice isn't it? What are you gonna get then? You fancy what? Postman Pat snap? Shall we have a look for it? We're going to root in your drawers for Postman Pat snap. Is that alright? Erm Fireman Sam? No. Postman Pat? No. Well you'll have to tell us. Norman. Norman. Henry. I think those are jigsaws mainly in there, don't you? What's this at the bottom here? Shall we have a look in a different one? Try this next one down here. Have a look in there. Excuse me dear. Thank you. Can you see it? I think it's all jigsaws in this bit. Don't you? Shall we try the top drawer? Would you like that one?rooting about in your drawers . Here. Have you found it? Look. Would you like that one instead? No. Shall we shut this drawer then and have a look in a different one? Excuse me. Mind your fingers. Oops a daisy. That's it. Let's try this top one cos we didn't look in here. Oh this looks promising. What's this? Is that it? Goody, hooray, mummy can go. I'll see you later then now. Anyway, have you had a good time? Yes. That's for you. What is it? A G M minutes . When's that for? Erm whenever the A G M is. A week on it's a week on It's for you to study and peruse so that you you know. Well I know, I think it's a good idea. Well I might just try They're giving them out beforehand so that, so Yes it's much better for you to look, because you're all busy trying to look at them and listen to what's I know. going on. Well there you are. You can look now and have your questions at the ready. And I don't know what happened to my dustbin. Oh, why what happened to it? It was all over the place. The bags were down there. It's been very windy. Yes. Er er that's it then. So I've, I've got to, what was that? Those are the mums and toddler tea towels. Thank you very much. I've washed them. Thankyou, right-y-o. Oh well I've got a lot of things to tell you. I bet you have. They'd better not go on that thing. Why not? Well ooh private. Oh it's private. Right. Shall I switch it off then now? Well if you want to know. Oh I do want to know . Well we started out Just before you tell me about yesterday. Just let's get today sorted. You know when you go to erm collect Christopher from school? Mhm. Instead of walking back down to our house go down towards the pub. At the end of that place where you park? No. No no no. Go down the path to the pub. You know at the bottom? The Jolly Farmer? Oh. And wait in the car park down there. Oh. Round that Cos that'll save me five minutes. I can't remember which way I go. Do I turn left? Well, you know when you get up the top you come out the school gates Turn right. and you turn right. Mm. And then instead of turning left down towards where we park the car, Mm. keep going. Straight on. Yeah. There's a path goes down a slope. Yeah. You follow your nose down to the bottom of there. Then you turn, well you just follow the path. It turns right and into the car park. Oh so we follow the path and don't go over that bridge over the road? No. Don't go towards that, just keep on the path towards the Jolly Farmer? I've been round there but Yeah? I've forgotten it . Well you'll see at the bottom of that hill that th there's the Jolly Farmer sitting in front of your eyes. Mm. We're going in there then are we? Well I should think so. I don't think the Jolly Farmer does meals. No. But I thought if you do that then I can turn in that car park Mm. at the Jolly Farmer. And er Pick us up and pick you up and then we can sail off to lunch. That's right. And it'll just save us a few minutes because it'll be tight squeeze I expect. It will if we're not quick because erm Yeah. we don't want to rush them eating it do we? Oh no. It's meant to be a party night. Well laugh Right. Two girls It was on a train. on Monday morning Mm. setting off. I set off and we had a taxi because it was terrible and I thought oh well, we had a lovely weekend, I'm not going to er spoil it by being soaking wet getting to Piccadilly station. So I said we'll order a taxi, so we order a taxi. Well er he came, the taxi man you see and Irene I don't know what, what was up with her because she gets my little bag into the taxi leaves all the doors wide open. Ooh dear . And I'm jigging out with another bag and the taxi man says er no, are there any more people? I said no, I said. Ooh I said she's not lo I said eh, what about the doors? Dear . Oh. So we, and the taxi man She perhaps thought she was going home. I don't know what she thought. So er the taxi man said Going away. give me the keys and I'll lock the door. I said alright. So we we pair of us supervised locking the door. The Dear. taxi man and me. . Found out he knew all this area Oh. and had a right chat with him on the way but, laugh. So last night oh she said that, you know what did with the door she said, it caused a minor sensation with my two old ne next door neighbours. They thought she was ill. Oh I see. Mm. And the so the taxi man and I were er Was taking her away. was er t don't know what they thought we were d doing. Yes, with her not locking her own front door. Oh dear. Cos we had to get the keys off her. Well at least it was nice that they were looking out and Well that's it I said well it just shows you that they do watch what y for you don't they? Mm. They're a nice couple, next door. Mm. He's called Fred. So apparently last night he came knocking on the door. To see if she was alright. So she'd been out all day to this cousin's at Blakely She goes on a Monday now. Oh he said, do you go every week? Oh he said I'll bring you a leaflet. You could get a dial-a-ride. Oh. You're over seventy. Oh right. They take you there for twenty P if you reg he said I'll bring you the papers. Oh that's good. That's handy isn't it? So Yeah I sa er well she'd, actually she does two twenty P's cos she goes to town and gets a few things but, I mean it, I said it might be bad weather one day Mm. and you'd be glad to dial it. Mm. But you fill in this form From your front door type of thing? Yes, they come for you. Oh. So erm only in the Manchester area. Mm. You know Manchester City Council. They do a dial-a-ride in Redditch. They do? But I've never used it. But anybody can use it but under under seventy or something you have to pay so much. You know, like go to the hospital with it or something. Yes you can. Well anyway so he got her these forms. I said well it's worth registering. I said Annie could do that. Mm. She's over seventy. I said why they'd come for her wouldn't they? Mm. Do they do things on a regular basis? You know? I suppose they do. I said fill it in and see, no harm in always say no Mm can only say no. can't they? Mm. So he, he, as I was talking to her last night on the phone the front door bell's going and it's our Fred from next door right looking after her and bringing forms for her to fill in to get dial-a-ride. I thought jolly nice isn't it? Mm. Well then th they must have been she said they'd been concerned all day. Oh dear. They never turned up till half past six you see because What did she do after that then? She went gallivanting off then after that? Oh she stays there at Oh. She stays and g ta gets a meal in town to take to her. Right. Then she does a bit of ironing for her. She don't, she do she i she er finished her eightieth birthday and then had a stroke. Oh did she? When she got over the stroke she fell and broke her hand. The first time Oh I remember you saying that. first time that the church warden came for her to go to church she fell getting out of his car. Oh dear. Mm. So then I had on the train. And these two girls, I think everybody was going for interviews at Man er Birmingham university yesterday. Oh right. And it was all crowded and so forth. And we met this gi I don't think these two were going to Birmingham university but they were going somewhere. Mm. So erm these two girls, I couldn't I mean I was reading but couldn't tell but they could. And I heard the girl saying well I don't look for smart shoes now. good gracious. I mean at least I do get a pair of smart shoes and they were lovely those shoes all day Mm. that bought . Erm she said got a corn on every toe. Well good gracious . How old was she? Oh oh only, she'd be oh twenty five, twenties like. They Oh dear. you know . I listened and listened, I thought ooh students don't change. So erm A corn on every toe . Yes. Dear. So she said I have to, so I was squin you know I had a squint underneath to see whether she was wearing any . You know those fancy boots that are very wide? Mm. Got er some of those on. She said she couldn't she couldn't, she was crippled if she put a decent pair of shoes on. I thought well at your age what are you going to do ? Eh? So she must have been wearing some funny shoes to get corns on She probably had, mm. Yes. She learnt her lesson the hard way. So then it got into It's too late though now. into Birmingham Fine we were. I had, I bought a sandwich at Piccadilly station, goes in the bag oh I'll eat these on the train, I'll get the twelve six. Nice railwayman carried me bags down the stairs to the Redditch train . Oh very good. Yes I'm doing very well. I think they're all improving these anyway he said that They improve with age I Er I I I he said that oh yes I do want to go down these stairs but there's folks coming up and down and the esc you know, someone coming on the escalator. They ought to have escalators going down you know in Birmingham. They did, yes. So er he carried them down for me. They might have them might they, might they when they've finished all this refurbishing? I can't see where they're gonna put them. Oh I see. They've refurbished it but they've not made any space for a down escalator have they? Mm. You've got to go and ask for them to take you on the erm Lift. lifts if you're er Decrepit. decrepit and want a chair. Mm. But anyway as usual you get on the station. All of a sudden as they like to do in Birmingham station, all the trains are coming in on different platforms from usual and and er delays here and do you know what it was? It was on the television last night. It was a huge fire at erm Oh. at er Banbury. Oh. So everything was coming in on different lines? and it sounded as though it was on the railway but it wasn't the railway it was a big factory at the side. Mm. And they er er they said people getting on this train er it was on the eleven, platform eleven near to where we were make sure, they kept giving it out giving it out, you must get out at Leamington Spa if you want Banbury. Mm. And they're going to lay some coaches on. Because this train is going to avoid Banbury. Mm. To get to wherever it was going. Mm. That's the trouble with Birmingham. Because it's where it is in the country, any catastrophe up or down It ups yes oh ah upsets whatever goes on in Birmingham. So er there was this poor girl sitting on this seat and I'd seen her there and so, there was a nice lady sat they said er they took the Redditch train off the thing and put this Shrewsbury on. This huge, you know, one two five came ooh we said, don't get on there if you want the university. We said we don't know where the train is but get on when we do and you'll be alright. She was going Right. Are you gonna get your coat on and Yes. keep talking as we go. Is that your hat or is it mine? Think it's yours. Anyway this great big train came in. That was late. They're all standing out Birmingham you see and they were alt having to alter all the platforms cos of the Mm. Anyway when I saw the fire Shall I take this? Er yes when I saw the fire at Banbury ooh I said er they'd had to move people out and getting water from the canal. It burnt the whole factory down for some reason Oh dear. Wonder what it was? So it was What factory? I've forgotten. Cos all the trains were on time Have you got the keys for my house as well as yours? Yes. Right. And, I don't need Well, no you won't. But I'm just checking. Yes. Yes. I'd better lock this up hadn't I? Do you like me gear? Nice, why have you just bought those? No no. This is what I got at erm in Exeter. Oh lovely. You haven't shown me yet The swimsuit that you bought me. Mm. Colour. I got your card by the way, oh I said that already. Have you done it yet with them? No, not yet. I I bought it specially for all three of you. We got some I got it in Droitwich. Oh. At that er erm christian bookshop I got it . Oh. they're new trousers are they? Well no. I've had the trousers some time. Well they're newish. They're probably the newest pair I've got but that's not the point. Erm Come on dear. Just get yourself in this car else we'll be late. Oh, sorry. Er you've got a lot of er stuff middle of his lawn. I've never asked him to have I been here. I'll tell you about the wedding I'll tell you what I'll do. I'll drop you off at the Jolly Farmer, then you can walk up the hill to get to the school. Then you'll know the way back Oh then I'll know won't I? won't you. If you ever find the school that is. What time do I go? Oh it's Well it's twelve o'clock you see. Now do I just wait outside the classroom? He knows I'm going does he? Yeah. He didn't, he doesn't like me going . Oh he said, I won't see you till next Mon Monday I said now it's Tuesday isn't it. I don't think he'll have noticed your absence. He was so ill on Sunday. He didn't not no . Poor little thing. And Timothy as well. Well he wasn't that ill. He just got feverish in the night really. He seemed to be over it much quicker. And how's daddy? Oh he's alright. We both survived. Gritted our teeth and made it through the weekend. Oh dear. But you wouldn't want to be without them thought would you? Oh no. No. Just have to well just certain times when th could, just could do with a holiday from them. So the wedding, how was that then? Oh that was lovely. Ooh it was cold though. Oh dear So I'm taking some Were they wearing their thermals? Well we were. Yeah but the bride I mean. Oh I don't know what she had on. Because the dresses were deep, low there and oh those low ones that come . Well I wouldn't have chosen them for March cos I mean that's very nice It's the in thing though isn't it? Off the shoulders and Yes yes and you see. And and the underskirt and everything's all in with the dress isn't it? Well anyway she's a nice I like her very much. He's chosen A nice girl But he's, he's got this he's got this now. Oh yeah. It was, oh it was nice. So I saw Paul. Yeah they'd all be there wouldn't they? Paul and David, Paul's young lady. First of August he's getting wed. Oh he, he's turned into a nice boy has Paul. I'm sure he has. Yes. really, and erm I I've brought the service and things for you. Erm Mr , you know Douglas did the prayers. Oh yeah. But erm the church you see was burnt down where he's gone to but it's nearly finished, altering it. And and in a sense it's been a blessing in disguise. Yeah. Because you go in and they've got this new entrance hall. Yeah. And made a gallery round for the Sunday school. And then you go into They had a fire at Saint Leonards and they've been saying that really it's been a good thing. Cos they've had to rethink what they want. What's where yes. And they've Cos otherwise you're tied by you know Yes that's it. So preservation orders or this that and the other. Yes, yeah but when it gets burnt down you, I mean they can't There's no preservation . So and er we got there fairly early, cos the taxi well the taxi man got lost, that's another story. The taxi man got lost in Manchester. Anyway we got, we got there in time Oh no wonder he wanted you to set off early. Eh? No wonder he wanted you to set off early, he didn't know where he was going. anyway we had a nice trip up past and back through Prestwich and all round. Till we found out that and he said oh I know where I am now. Just tu He didn't charge you for all that? No, he took some off. Fortunately. Oh that was nice. He said ooh he said it was my fault. So he took anyway er I'm getting mixed up with me stories I think. And at this church we got there early and the soon as we walked in there the, the church warden says toilets are there. Thanks very much we said. You must have looked the type. So we we . You know we said where we'd come from, that sort of. So they let us look all round, they said . So we did you see. Because er it's marvellous what they've been able to do. It's not quite finished. I expect it was packed was it? It was full . And er the thing was, we found out afterwards why they'd done it. The organ pipes are in the middle of the chancel and you couldn't see the east window at the . No. Oh well they said that's because they'd not got that section finished and . But the old gargoyles off the church were saved and they've stuck them up all over the on the erm dividing piece between the church and this new er section. They've got a lovely new kitchen . Very nice. I bet Oh yes they said. But we've had a very very well we've still got him a good treasurer. Who knew what to do and instead of Yeah. instead of saying, telling the er insurance people that they'd give them the bills and they could pay them as they came in, he said they'd got a lump sum. And he's been able to invest it Mm. himself. Mm. Mm. And he wanted, he was a man that knew what he was doing. Knew where to get extra Get extra money. interest. And he said er he's paid, he's paid for everything. Just a little bit more money they wanted then he shoots off home. I'm sure, you know, with Alan and this new building, he's been very good. Yeah. Because he's known the right people. Yes. And when things have turned up and they've not been quite right he's known Yes. There's something sort of practical about him. You know the Yeah that's what he, they said he's been marvellous, this treasurer. They said we wouldn't have got No. but they've gotta let him. You see. Mm. But he, he said to the insurance people no I don't want you just to keep on paying the bills. Yeah. He said we'll have a lump sum. And he got the lump sum and they was investing it and just drawing out when he needed it. That's it. Course it was very nice and we got a proper dinner at this erm mind you we were absolutely famished by the time we got there. Didn't get me dinner till gone three . Yeah. Thought you'd be late. What time was the wedding? Mm? What time was the wedding? Half eleven? Twelve. Oh twelve. Did you have elevenses before you set off? Mm? Did you have elevenses before you set off? set off at . I had but erm we set off from Irene's at half past ten you see. Oh . It took him three quarters of an hour to get us there. So anyway we'd had a good look round and this ch church warden said hey you'd better go and get some seats cos it's going to get . Now you've come early he said, have a sit there he said and you'll see everything. Yeah. Cos they only booked seats for the immediate family. So we sat on this row and it was Paul and his young lady and David all in the row with us. And er Yeah. It was very nice. All there they were. I've had a right good chat to David. So he, they came to erm Saint, Saint Kevins on Sunday morning. And I reckon Sunday I'd have got a lift home. Oh right. had a real good chat with them all Sunday night. Yeah. Just pleased you'd got that extra space. You're not worrying about rushing off. Well I would have been rushing off. Anyway it wouldn't have been fair to Irene really cos we went Sunday afternoon. Well you've got nothing to rush off t for have you really? No. To look at the er . Yeah. Have they found out any more about how it started? Absolute shell. I don't know, they've, no well they're investigating aren't they? It's a shame. you know, you know what it looked like. But he had made a mess of it. Are you taking me to the er I'm taking you to the Jolly Farmers. Oh, are you? Which will give you just about the right amount of time then to walk up. You'll have a nice walk ready for your lunch. Thank you very much. I've already had a walk this morning. I went out, there was nobody in the queue for the I said what's the matter? She said I don't know, it's a quiet morning. Well she said quiet time of the year this a bit. Oh I said there's none they're all queuing for papers and cigarettes. Nobody at the counter for the post office. Okay now, if you go on th this path whoops it's gone. Eh? It'll be underneath the floor. Wait a minute. Good job I brought you. Where's the path gone? Well it's under the floor. I mean it's erm you go, the underpass is there you see. Mm. Can you see the grass there? Yes. If you walk straight across that bit of grass there you'll come to the path. I don't have to go on the underpass do I? Well there's no point really cos you have to go backwards and go under the underpass and then up there you see. So I'm going left aren't I? You're going, yeah. Well the underpass takes you left if you see what I mean. Yeah we're not going back to the underpass do But you don't, no. You want to go u you see where that big tree is there? Yeah. So You want to go across the grass and you'll hit a path which goes left up there, past those houses. I think I've done it once before. Yeah. When I used to wander round with erm Oh. Just that Oh sorry. No it's alright, go on. You walk up towards it and when I see you And I'll come back tell me disappearing round the path. Yes right. You'll see the path across there. Can I tell you what we're going to do, cos we're gonna do something nice. What? I've just left grandma to go and collect Christopher from, from school. And we're all going to go out to lunch together. Have some lunch together while Christopher's, in Christopher's lunch hour. We're gonna go to to Tesco's with grandma. Have a birthday lunch. For me. With Christopher? Yes, with Christopher. And then we've got to take Christopher back to school for the afternoon. And then we'll go Why? and then we go back home with grandma. Why? Because today Christopher's not having his lunch at school. He's gonna have it with us instead. But he still has to go back and work in the afternoon. Who? Who? Who? What do you mean, who? Christopher has to go back to work this afternoon. Why? Because it's school time. It's school time till three o'clock. You're going a different way. I'm going a different way aren't I? Supposed to be going the right way. Don't worry we'll get there. It's just a different way home, that's all. Cos there's lots of different ways from the nursery. Going to pass the water tower. We haven't. We haven't. We haven't what? Passed the water tower. It's there. Water tower. That's it. We we didn't go past the water tower . Ooh. What's the matter with you? You're all stroppy. Did James put sand in your eye? Oh dear. Was that an accident? You're always getting sand in your eye aren't you? I think you must rub your hands in your eyes or something. I did. And it didn't come out properly. No. Did Lily help you? No. Gwen? No. Oh. Just you? Yes. Is it still in there now? What? Is it still in your eye now? Yeah. Oh dear. If you blink a lot that helps to wash it out. No. Blink a lot cos it helps to wash it out. put water . Well it's a bit tricky to put water in your eye. Just blink a lot cos that helps. That wa No. that washes your eye anyway. Here they are look. Oh we go past them. That's right. I'm turning round here look. Quick. Are you going to go round? Be quick. Eh? Who's gonna go round? He can climb through the middle. Have you had a good morning? Erm we discovered we could have come through this road here Oh. instead of going on that grass. That would have been quicker would it? I think, yes we're going to have to go back that way . It depends which way you're coming. Have you had a good morning sir? That was quite quick. I was there before it It is, it's not very far. Did you have to wait for ages? No. I had a good look and some of his class came to wave to me. Oh . Isn't it amazing how they know you? Eh? I expect he said there's my grandma. Yeah. Where's that car? What car love? Hello Timothy. How are you? Anybody else going home today for lunch? Yes there's ano somebody behind. Who was it? Er, he knew who it was didn't you? I don't know who it was. No but somebody came behind us didn't they? Cos they'd brought a little dog to be walked. Have you had a good swim? We left his things. There was no point in bringing No, no point in bringing swimming things now. Did you have a good swim Christopher? Did you have a good swim? Donkeys nod their heads. Bit silent. He's nodding his head. What have you done this morning? Swimming? Mummy when I swam swimmed Yeah. it wasn't very long. It wasn't very long? No. Oh. Why was that then? Anyway, it was very cold. Was it? Oh dear. Have they got it warmed up? Did you get out and warm up? Mum why are we going this way? The out was even colder. Oh dear. That's a shame isn't it? Why are we going this way? I hope it's not When I got in the pool it was very cold, going round the edge. Yeah? Mummy why are we going this way? We're going to Tesco's. We're going to Tesco's. He's not got himself sorted out, Tim. He's a bit bit erm Oh poor thing, he's a mixing him up are you? bit baffled aren't you Tim? Course he's baffled. Anybody would be baffled. Look at that woman silly . That's where Gemma lives, down there. Yes that's right. Well you say silly thing but how else is she gonna get across that road? Got no other way has she? Cos Cos they've not exactly put er the the to that bus stop. Except there seems to be they've not stuck an underpass or anything have they? And it's a pretty horrendous road. a lot of people coming cars on it when she did Well there are always a lot of cars on it. Yeah. So there's no no chance. Don't believe in zebra crossings in Redditch. We haven't got any you know? No I know we haven't. Those pelican crossings that, we've got one or two of those. We could have one of those. I think we'll have a mass trip to the toilet before we go into the cafe. Oh we'd better, yes. Yeah. I thought I'd gone before I came out of my house but I had a feeling when I nearly got to their school that I ought to have again. You want to go again? Yeah. it's even better there look. There you are. When it goes straight on there it looks like you're reversing backwards. It does doesn't it? But I hadn't really. It was a bit cheating. What? It was a bit cheating. Right, what do we need? Just money and us don't we? Are we allowed ? Yeah. Mr didn't decide Mum, I need to wash to take your patches off your trousers again today? No. Good. get out. I'm going to wash my hands cos I've got glue on me. Oh right. What have you been doing then? Sticking glue Gluing. glue. Glueing what? Are you unbuttoned yet? Do you want some help? Oh he's unplugged now. Ooh. Somebody else coming. Right? Are we all locked up? Mum Oh dear. That car's called E K W. Are you alright? Having troubles? E K W. You what? E K W that car is. E K W . There's E J W there. With a J. Where? Here. What did, what did Christopher and Timothy give you then? For my birthday? Yeah. I got some biscuit cutters. Is that what you got? Mm. Ooh that Dinosaur shapes and gingerbread men shapes. Oh So we've got to make biscuits all afternoon. I gave you gingerbread big man. Yes you did. And Tim gave you dinosaurs. That's right. And daddy gave you the family. That's right. Oh oy. We're all going to the toilet first. Where's grandma going? She's examining what she's going to eat. Did you all go swimming or were there a lot of you not going today? Not very many Thank you. went. Mum Mm. went. Who went? Mark went. Mm. Good. Have you done any reading or anything like that? Is he alright in there Dorothy? Well I hope so. Sorry, do you want to Mum, why do you you have one. No you're alright, no I'll look and see what the man's doing. He's alright. Oh. You just carry on in this one look. Oh okay. Don't worry about our family. We'll all go in to the one. I've taken my coat off. Oh you've taken your coat off. Right. He's taken his coat off. How do you lock it? No we don't need to lock it, come on. There's only us and a lady in here and she won't be coming Think there's someone else gonna come. Is there? Well grandma will sort them out. Is there anything coming? No. No? You're alright are you? Yeah. When did you wee? Did you wee at at nursery? Yeah. Er er er before I I went. Right. Right. Would you like to tell grandma. Ask her if she'll do your face for you cos you're a mess. While I just go to the toilet. You got as far as you were at the wedding We went in the church, that's right. Oh and I got the thing. You can look at it while we're sitting here. Oh let's have a look yeah. Might as well because this is a good time while he's rushing around on that. That's a those were the little erm things that were on the tables. Oh yes. How many were there, the guests? We reckon there must have been a hundred at the meal. Oh, very nice. Mind you it was nice, I liked the service very much. Mark Richard Samuel. I didn't realize there was all that lot. They've all got three names haven't they? And that's the little cards. Did they oh no. Couple of hearts, how exciting. Oh! We had that one. Yeah I know. It was all very nice actually. I liked the rector of the er I've got something in here that Irene sent for you, your family. Who did? Irene? Irene sent those. What are they? For your birthday. Oh my goodness. Right. Keep them quiet. I'll put them in here Here he comes. He's found a friend look. Eh? He's found a friend. Alright isn't it? Found a friend? Mm. Have you found a little friend? Do you want to go and play with her? Chase her. I don't know what me pictures will come out like because when we started taking them we were that cold our hands were going like this. Oh dear. Mm. And then it was, there wasn't much room Are you going to stand them up for me Tim? It Right, let's have a look in this parcel then Yeah in the garage I think we'll throw this bits and pieces away Aunty Mary send you some money then? Yeah Oh Twenty pounds from Aunty Mary, I know, she should of been generous, shouldn't she? She's got nobody else really, so normally you've got Here's one for you I think I've been given it er some good cause rather than Well I well, yeah I know I don't think I'd have to I mean we're not sure I'd send it to suit for me if I thought you were all out of work Mm, it would be . There's a very sweet one from John and Chris have you found that one? Oh yes, he's given me too many at once, thank you very much Don't think they will all fit on there will they Tim? stamps off for you. Yeah I'm going to getting the stamps off these en envelopes cos I have to put all these in a hurry in the end, also got loads of time, then I realised it was half past ten, no wonder I didn't get anything at home forgotten where we keep them and John Chris and John tweedle well I'm always calling them tweedle dum and tweedle dee, hey don't throw it at the house, it might be something fragile Yeah It come through the post it probably is Here, I open that bit you take the brown paper off and this is the wall paper underneath and I'll take that bit off Yeah right, when you get to the stamp make sure you don't rip the stamp, cos they need the stamp ,stamp of the stamp Mm it is isn't it? mm I expect to be here Who's Steven and Pauline? Pauline and Steven and Pauline and Tony, remember Pauline came to see us, little girl, oh look we've got a plant arriving with a brown leaf on it in there Oh they're all mouldy, oh dear are they meant to be mouldy like that? I don't know, I think you ought to take the top off now Do you? Well, ain't you read the instructions? Yeah, but it says don't take the top off for twelve days, when did I la , when did it come out Well it looks to me I mean I, it, it's five days since I was in Manchester so It will be tomorrow won't it, fortnight Ooh, gently does it I did Whatever it was just the way I did it I open this bit No, this is my bit now, cos it's my, my present Let, let mummy, mummy's birthday let her open it Ooh it's French, I think that's just going in What's inside it? I don't know yet, it's very exciting I want it Tim who's birthday is it? Oh it's a present for you Yeah, it's a It's a bath gel, very posh daddy will be interested in these stamps, we've managed to come across some French stamps Look, look, can't you get it No, I what is it? well it's in a French box I hope it's worth opening So do I , I think the box is only because it's here we are You know what that will do? Oh you're right that's a letter for looks like a card smells nice Look put it back in the box otherwise there Oh look at that, I love birthdays on a badge,to Aunty Dot,hope your birthday is lots of fun for you, filled with many of, happy things and nice surprises too , right let me wear me badge I love birthdays there we go that can stand up somewhere, I don't know where, we're running out of space Mum the gingerbread boy isn't it, we've got the man dad that's your grandma love, not your dad, to the Well mummy wants daddy when she wants to make the, the biscuit, let's look gingerbread family, oh yes Oh what she got? Mum, mum What's this,oh look at that Ooh a rose garden, celebrated fragrance of the rose I didn't recreated in this soft I did, show to grandma Oh that's lovely Can you smell the Let's smell it don't know Oooh Ooh, ooh Oooh this thirty outdoor Freshers suitable for small gardens I say bulbs that's nice even go in the planting time March to April, that's Whoops there's a letter I'll have these Freshers all the way down the side near that erm middle wall, thought to myself wonder what I could have done there that will look pretty Lovely aren't they? You know near the fence on this side no that side in the sun in the, yeah oh yes, under the Freshers would be nice Look I know, aren't I lucky? Oh look at these socks they're huge There, they will go That's a thank you letter for Ann's birthday oh very kind wasn't it? I did rather well there What's this one, do we have to take the lid off it, we do don't we, or do we have to puncture it? Maybe tell you somewhere, look underneath, is there a thing on the bottom? No, it isn't, it smells nice enough with the lid on, but I'm sure it should come off No, it should come off , I don't think I think you might make a hole in it Oh it's got sellotape there Look Oh it's that display open attracted container Oh that will it Mum Whey hey The Phorr put these on the erm Put them up somewhere dear I thought I'd put them on the window sill I think Me, me smell it you don't need to smell close, don't get too close it's quite powerful he shall walk in and daddy will say oh what is that beautiful scent, we will say it's the rose right leave them here don't forget Christopher though will you, what time is it? It's nearly ten to six are you going to come with me to get Christopher Tim or are you staying with grandma? Going to stay with grandma Ok, thank you very much I think he needs constant trips to the loo grandma Yeah Oh daddy went to the park Yes I am too, it makes a fresh air Make a nice change We'll also go to the park where there's nobody else village , first of August You won't get any like that one will you? What one? So er David you know them, I think I'm letting the down really but when you do do it there won't be any, be any erm, oh I never thought of that he says Look at Michael he says wait twelve months and then I said something like that I said, them all intention of being used. I recognise his parents but well after that Mike get's I went park I just was thinking oh well, I was going nanny Landed with looking a few Yeah now we have to share erm, right What This is Alright what do we say about throwing toys eh? It spoils them dear, you shouldn't throw them I can smell a smell It's called pot pourri Tim quick before you go out Tim, Tim, Tim he'll probably just wants to go to the toilet soon you will tell grandma won't you? Leave that when you get back I know he will be, he's quite good at so far, I think this time of day is alright, but It's when he gets very tired they can't They do, don't they? . Right I'll see you in a bit then Tim Want anything doing? Like what? Oh yeah actually that would be quite nice, I mean when I, when I arrive home I make, cos I make it in a microwave I would guess that Christopher would like that in an OK, I'm not doing those, I'll just do the tea OK I like Ooh I love squirrels, don't you? Huh down the bottom they are I know Every time I think Oh what a shame, they come down here Gone further up now , yeah We often have squirrels down, the bottom down there, down, haven't seen any there before. Well I've got a, mm, got a big wood at the back of my place I Oh well there's plenty there Erm, I got like a big bird box that we put a little outside bird box and everything Oh outside, I feed them all the time Oh and erm one's made a nest in this bird box Oh lovely and it comes down, takes the food and you see it taken all the straw and its chewed all me clematis and everything got it all inside his little nest We had a hedgehog last year, I haven't seen them this winter er you know since Yeah, something might of happened to them unless they yeah they could do, there were two of them I think it's rather mild a male and a female and a baby Yeah it's rather mild and they sort of erm, to find a different place all the time Mm, mm make my way down this way, you over here are you? What's the new notice? Is there a new notice here Oh oh it's alright, mother and toddler that's alright, I'm not into that Oh I'm not into no mother and We run a mother and toddler in the morning on a Thursday I'm not coming to another in the afternoon there picking things up Hello Gemma something . Oh dear somebody's bad See the baby this morning? No I haven't seen them, have they come Yeah have they got some? yeah, there, it's on the one page and Gemma Oh right and er Gavin I think it was er er she did go like, not to bother borrowing the magazine at the end, sometimes they may cos they will get, they will get give you some, said she yeah she save one each for them Were on a front of a book you know, same bloke dressed on the front of a book I've seen it, Christopher's on the front of the book, he looked lovely there I know , he looked really nice really nice , he's in Smith's little model Yes, he booked her in Smith's, then she said don't buy one yet cos they're one pound sixty Yeah don't buy one yet yeah, you'll get free she said cos I've noticed this sometimes she said there, they will give you some here yeah she said and I'll save one mm that should give him the Oh they should send us, oh eh we've got a something or other on today er Wait for it no they paid you, paid, paid, given us an address that er at the she said Mummy they will come I'm sure they will because er Don't keep they give you a photocopy oh they photocopy it yeah they photocopied it that's nice , is this you, let's have a look one sixty but I said erm No you'll get a complimentary copy, we did with the book, the man came to our house yeah, she said they may and gave it to us so that. Is any where Good Chris look at this, I know all my work, a smile and a star, good gracious what word you on next Seeing as we've had those words for about a week I should think we do know them then. What have we got now? What we on now, Er There, there were Done those ones, done all these, we've done this one? Well done Christopher Yeah done that one Have you done that one? What about that? Yeah he's done that one They've done these two Mum have I Yeah I got those These there photo Oh this is your photo, oh look at you, how sweet, preparing the press block that's nice in it? Oh Oh little Was that when we did it, cos I did that with you didn't I in the afternoon, or I did some with somebody Did you do that rolling? Yeah, rolling the print stuff, I've never done that before now there's the address Lovely innit? She said, she said she'd put the address in it. Ah that must be it Is that it? yeah Yeah, I say She did not to bother, they're selling them in W H Smith, did she say sometime? The, the last time they did she, they, hang on a minute sort it all out Come on then cos it being This is Kirsty's mum er she started her off Oh this looks nice, typical blue don't alright you know and what's this Christopher Oh that, they had them yesterday why we was Oh weather he's coming back Come on then Gem What have we got now, the storm What boxes was that, that one? That's a swizz that one, you get to the end and they've not got in the pool Oh, oh I was really cheesed off with that I had that with my little girl the other night really cheesed off yeah , they don't make it, they get to the door and that's it, and you think of what the hell and er, I mean he can be a bit Oh no problem cos we, did he show what we did in the library yesterday? Oh no We bought it with to show oh you didn't get, it's ever so good he got it out and he read most of it ever so well it's lovely Oh well done so we were very pleased. Oh you can read that one tomorrow you might like to It's a good story, very funny, it's like that woman who started out being a window sill It's your birthday by the way Does everybody know? Fine, thanking you Sharon, it's very kind . I'll go home and blow my candles out, come on You've got lady's trainers now Well no I threw the old ones away, cos they were getting holes in them, here's Mark's mum hello, all well? Yes, till we go for it is isn't it? Yeah it goes very quickly, yeah, Tuesday already Who knows all my words? it's a big one that Oh I get another star , thing is he doesn't actually, I can remember them cos he can read them,I don't know whether she's got them wrong for the test it's a bit of a really isn't it eh? come on Did you enjoy your swim this morning? He said it was cold, was it cold? You found it cold . There was , there was a debate as to whether we went in or er It was so cold but it was cold when we got in and even colder when we got out , so if we all go down with pneumonia that will I think if it's a bit like that again we should probably, you know, we wouldn't take them in Say no, yeah and we got changed, but it wasn't until I got in that you realized that you realized that it was so cold Mummy I bet they forgot to put the heating on something earlier or, service that and not got I don't know whether they gone and complained about it the worse was well that was, you know I mean they were all waiting they had all got their arm bands on and it was do we take them in or not? So you were in for ten minutes and rushed them out and out again then I was gonna get out a little bit earlier Yeah and er well considering we were sick the day before I shall think that will really do us in The heater's nice and warm. There's a heater in there is there? Well in the changing rooms Oh well, you mean heat in the changing rooms Changing rooms, there's quite a good heater There's one in the just by the er, the changing rooms, the, the erm lockers and I always choose a locker that You want the ones yeah, yeah I always choose a locker that's between the Dry your hair got changed I always pick that little spot to get changed in, oh, well see you all then, right, bye, bye Mark Oh bye, oh hello , are you waiting for your mum or do you go home by yourself? Well my mum stay there Bit of both oh right, that's a good idea, see you Gone the wrong way a post box got a letter to post Oh we will unless we've gone down the wrong hill We'll have to practice the window cleaner one if you're going to read it to the rest of the class, have to practice the face and read it with expression so they don't all fall asleep oh hello, hi. Oh it's I know, my word, oh it's brilliant and that's my eldest I've got a new one tonight, I don't know how we're gonna cope with this, we've got, we've changed schemes now, we're into the Oxford Oh I like the Oxford it, the stories are really fun Oh yes, yes Yeah You'll be If I do My children just love that over there and yeah we'd like to keep ours till September, I don't know if we'll ever get, we will get a free new one ever? Or do we have to have, we have to pay our ten P's,to park Every Oh every year,oh well we've got a long time to keep it going , within about the first, within about the first month daddy managed to get the iron on the top Oh, oh on the left carried on well that's I thought when I saw it coming out I thought oh goodness this is gonna be ten P a week, that's the same for everybody, very good How does and because it's slight yellow you don't lose it you know, if you keep all your stuff in it at home you can see it under the chairs and you know huh, find it again . We, one doesn't try to lose things, but they just happen don't they really I think I appreciate more now, you know when I was, when I was teaching I used to think oh stupid woman she's not, to bring this book in and you know, and now I think oh dear, huh, yeah and you also appreciate the people, I would appreciate now those who managed to do it every day without fail, manage to sort of let, because they must of put themselves out no end to have Yes done it as opposed keep in to those who think oh blow I can't find it just tough mm no hope we don't lose it on that Tim, it's got all my money in at the moment, it's a really good one isn't it, we're really enjoying it at the moment doesn't what number it is but we just, what do we do with this? Something seven Something seven, sixty seven perhaps even or seventy something, anyway whatever it's got money hasn't it? It is well we haven't seemed to the new five P's yeah, well I was gonna say those new five P's are but you see you just get the new five P's and low and behold they will produce something else they change hang on oh yes He's got chicken pox at the moment I think Oh I think she's probably just come out for a quick stroll, we won't spend our time over that at the moment,hello Hello alright? Have they not had chicken pox? Yes, ours have, yeah they probably passed it on in fact, kids probably passed it to them Oh weeks ago. I was thinking I haven't heard him cry Is he happier? Tim you mean? No, that Oh that one Yes . I tell you something I was amazed at erm the reading book he appeared with, Fluff and Nip and goodness knows what that went out with the ark when I came out of college, I don't know whether they're all reading that or whether it's just sort of found them and must of been just perhaps a one off or something, but, I was amazed no I don't think it is, I think it's probably got yeah it's the moral, that's right, and the moral sounds, sounds good doesn't it, I don't know if it is, but it just sounds it I suppose Well I, I mean no, no I mean I like very much yeah yeah, could well be, I don't know what it is if it's anything school no and I, I think particularly this new head seems to know exactly what she's doing, where she's going, I think it's excellent so I'm sure she's working everybody to death and I think that's brilliant Yeah well I was worked to death if she when I first came out of college and I really appreciated it well I, I, I you know you had high standards and you knew where you were aiming for and that's what I want my kids to go through as well, you know, somebody who's gonna do their best because it rubs off on them mm it's, it's everybody around them got to try hard that's right , that's right you know the stuff I mean they will yeah know that's there expect that's right and you know that if the staff has put theirselves out to make a decent crash in their environment they're gonna go mad at the children if they muck it up, so therefore, you know, you're gonna have that yeah I think that one of the things that get me at the moment is the time keeping, it's very bad mm I mean they stroll in at quarter to nine and I think right, right I think that it's a bit bad that yeah yeah, well I was there the other day and erm the bell went and nobody sort of moved and I thought I think, I know, you know, so I got up and I washed me cup of tea like, you know, they looked at me as if you know oh there's a keen , but I mean I do think it's important to do that, because not only that it's not fair for the I think the day you get I've, I've dinner ladies, because I mean they're stuck out there you know doing their best. cos from their every angle a child needs yeah, yeah cos it's I mean my two I've always been very yeah and they've never been late to their jobs I aim to get things there on time you know they've both got little jobs, they've never be late and they mm have to go and yeah all that sort of thing, but yeah I don't know what strolling and yeah, you mean the children and the say rather than oh yeah the staff oh yes, I meant the children yeah yeah, I was thinking of the parent and teacher side of it oh yeah yeah you're waiting to go into assembly yeah I don't know, it should, to me every day, one, two children you know yep I think they're late every day yeah once or twice they probably don't get up until quarter to nine, see they have a struggle really to get there on time I, I, if you can manage to get here for ten past nine every day, why can't you manage to get here for nine o'clock to get here for nine o'clock every day, yeah it's five to it says on the bits of paper it's five to but then the bell doesn't go till nine, although sometimes it goes at two minutes to nine and sometimes it goes at five past nine I think all the clocks are they say something different or something do they? yeah , because I was in the Cos sometimes I think we've got hours and we hear bell going as we're coming up the hill and we think oh dear and then, you know, other times yeah we'll be sitting in the playground for ages, well standing in the playground for ages. I think sometimes these things crop up Yeah and we all get rather engrossed yeah and then everybody's gone to the classroom and you think oh gosh the bell anyway I right, OK see you. bye I have to do my own one Mum Hello pardon? It's mixed is it? Yeah I told grandma that's what you want got some goodies in there there you are I had it the coat, I've just taken my coat off biscuits. ah we haven't got any biscuits have we? Do you know why we haven't got any biscuits, have to be one of those, ginger one got you there. I'm not sure we can actually make ginger bread, but, I'm not sure we've got any ginger but we could certainly make some biscuits is what we've got You can make some men You can make some biscuit men You can make some men but it just won't taste of ginger makes some men do you like one of these can't be making biscuits have you seen this? all of a I know my word She eat it don't Is there a of these? And who's, and who's put all that Can I do a big one? She's a scream she loves doing this kind of thing, doesn't she, Is it gonna be a big one? Would you like one of these biscuits grandma? Yes please Going to make a big one? We're not going to make anything right this minute, cos first of all we're going to sit down have a nice cup of tea and Christopher's going to read to me, so we're going to get that out of the way before the excitement thing happens Cos we've got to have the I know where the cake is but I'm not allowed to look You know where it is? Mm So do I with it Yeah I know where it is Do you Oop, what does it say that on the back for? Yeah it says cold It says cold but we don't know why When grandma There's your tea for you Thank you Yeah Thanks gran Now then grandma, you go into Smith's and buy yourself an Art and Craft Magazine, you'll see your grandson in there on page whatever that is, page twenty eight Not the book, the little one is it It's a little one now , this is the Art and Craft Magazine, you know they did, this is a child's education copy, they probably still do it Art and Craft Mummy Yeah Oops well that's it, that's the one It used to be a marvellous one Well that will be it I should think have you we shall have to ring er the grand parents cos they wanted a copy, we're supposed to get a free copy of the magazine we think, but they photocopied that for us just for fun Who has? the school hasn't it, cos it came through today in school Oh I'd love a picture in it that's what I'm saying to you well I didn't realize he'd be on his own in there no I don't look who's doing the whole lot apparently he just had to do, he just had to model that, he didn't get a chance to do it properly Oh Yeah He's been to the toilet, he didn't say come to the toilet, I had to go and So he just came to Oh dear, what's the matter with Tim? Oh that will What's your problem Tim? I where shall I put my drink? I don't know, where would you like to put your drink? He thought he had his What was it, was it a birthday cake or something with candles? I don't know I bet it had candles there in the summer, do you think? I think it was I've got it Can we get a mat for that, cos otherwise it makes a mess on my chair Oh it's I've seen the ah he's found the It wasn't, it was that There's a mat on the settee there Christopher I on the settee, and that will do It's mine this one Yes I know Do you want this on here? New magazine, which Tim choose, but has decided not to read Does these two come here then? How did they get Christopher in this? They took them at school, all at school. That's at school, The magazine? You can get it in Smith's if you walked in Oh walk into Smith's and ask for Art and Craft April edition publication and if they haven't got any spares they will order you one I expect Oh or we'll get you one, or you could get it through your local news agency. They won't get that in the shop No they will never get it will they? No, cos they won't know what you're talking about. OK, you gonna squeeze in this chair with me to do our reading Mum that could be a What's he got have you on you? Mm, probably might Ta Could be for Ruth, it's Ruth's birthday When? Three day's time. Or it could be for daddy if he wanted it Could be for daddy yeah Did you know You want My daddy might feel left out of it My Have you seen my badge look, Aunty Gwen and Uncle David sent me that Have you one saying I love birthday Be bo's Tim had one like that, a Thomas the Tank Yes Be bo's A Thomas the Tank Mine is, is this James? bald is it, the be bald The be bald, yes Be bald she's old Do what? She's old, they make a load of rubbish out of it Come on, where you gonna sit? I'm a sit Now then, Christopher's got to read this to class tomorrow, Mrs said, so we're gonna practice How did, how did the big old go. Right Right, you've got to make it sound really interesting, let me switch this thing off cos they don't want to hear you read again I don't suppose That's a ginger bread man Oh that's a dinosaur, oh there's another one, got that one up, oh there's a daddy there's another daddy too and never put me I did that for the nose Right, I think we'd better move this sugar, we're not gonna have enough room are we? Ooh, what a minute dad that's what I Right, can we just move it a bit, cos we've got to make the mixture we sort of have to do There's plenty of room right, just gonna put, I was gonna put the rice up here cos otherwise there's not gonna be enough room No to make the mixture I don't want to put the mixture in right now let's see what we need to do it says we need to melt the margarine No, I haven't washed my face Pardon? I haven't washed my face. You haven't washed your face? No You sound to me like a tired little rascal I want to help You can help darling, don't worry yeah where? no trouble, alright, don't cry, OK? Alright, there you are right are we happy now? I don't think we're gonna have Thomas very well we're baking can we? No Now it's the Send Thomas away somewhere in the shed or Cos I, I want to send him into the shed because I had him first boo, hoo, hoo, hoo I had him first I don't know whether I'm going to cope with you two I had him first You two, sshh, if you two are gonna help me with the biscuits, then we can't have rows about Thomas can we? Can we put him with the biscuit cutters over there? I wanted to Well it's just tough You not Right we need golden syrup, we need some margarine, can you pass me some margarine out of the fridge, there should be a block of margarine Mum in there somewhere. we shouldn't look at the box No well don't look, you won't be able to see anyway because it's in a bag caster sugar I don't appear to have any caster sugar, that could put the end to Anyway, mummy , it's right at the back gonna have to use brown sugar, that's all we got we shouldn't of, mum we shouldn't of, you shouldn't let me take cos I had erm right where's the scales? are we gonna have this for tea? Suppose depends what time we I the tea What? depends what time we get around to er, getting it done ooh, three hundred and fifty degrees, I don't know what it is we'll guess it, centigrade, right, what else do we need? Golden syrup, margarine, sugar, plain flour got some of that somewhere what else do we need? A pinch of salt A pinch of salt ginger bread not really, baking powder we got, a bit of bicarbonate soda we've got ginger well we're not having any ginger bread men cos we haven't got any ginger, huh, well we're just having sort of nothing really We're having, we're having Mm, that's right we're having sort of biscuits, erm a pinch of salt in there thank you you I'm helping Christopher, Christopher Put stuff in there That, what does that go on here? Eh, I don't know, hold on, cos I can't find any carb, here are, there's the baking powder Oh Mum, its my has disappeared Mummy just been weighed this weighed, mum this weighed something, this weighs nothing. right, change of plan What? change of plan, we haven't got erm bicarbonate of soda, so we'll have to self raising flour instead Why? I have to put in it let's just see whether we should use powder or not there eh, what are you doing, you're gonna end up in, having a salty biscuit if you're not careful, don't do it right we'll do the margarine first, were did you put the margarine? There we are, it had to be a block Don't need that one there's a block of margarine somewhere here, this one right then, can I do it? Can I do it? can you see that please, can you make total of eight there, we've got wait to orange like thing goes round to the eight The big notch yeah, can you see it Tim? Right down to that eight Which eight? No you're looking at the wrong one, this eight down here where it says eight and then there's an O and a Z, that's eight ounces which is about two and something grams, we're not worried about grams today,in ounces, oh, think that will be enough? I think, oh, no No, ah, ah, more try some more better no no try some more no nearly now nearly yeah I think that's about right, don't you? just one more, just one more, I think one more , how's that? erm, take one of tiny, tiny oh no, that's enough why? worried about that, right is that ready to go in the pan, if somebody would like to put that in the pan I want to thank's Tim, don't tip it on the floor pour it sort of blobs, so be careful oh, oh careful, whey oh oh right, sugar we need now no shall I do it, I do it? Can I do it mum? six pounds of the sugar OK, you ready? Oh dear me, look at, just ah let me see what's happening, that big notch there that's number four, now we need another notch five, and another notch six, whoops, stop mummy, too far, but never mind, I do right that lot needs to go in the pan until oh, I, I I do Let Tim cos you did the margarine. can I do the Whatever you do don't make a mess on the table, Oh it's a laugh, I know oh gonna let as well right What else do we need? I think we'll just wipe that mess , mind your fingers you dilly Mm it's nice mum mind your fingers out of the way mm, mm, it tastes nice mum And me, it tastes delicious Does it? Who now Right, wait a minute now we know yet we need, oh we need the golden syrup erm oh dear can you go down and get that back from him? I can't Why not? you go and get it mum Where is it can you press the there, now this should be interesting cos we're gonna get in a sticky mess here if we're not careful, eight ounces oh blob, blob, blob, blob, blob It's my turn blob, blob, I think I'd better do this one Tim, I haven't had a go yet No mummy hasn't had a go actually I no, no, can't eat it yet ooh ooh ooh ooh sticky wicky sticky wicky ooh I didn't have the spoon I didn't have the spoon do you? Can I lick it? One of you, one of you can lick the spoon and one can lick the bowl, plate Can I have the spoon please? Can I have the spoon? When you've got the off When you've got the golden syrup off , when you're eating the golden syrup can you there is golden syrup in this thing, I need to get and I'm, I'm having the bowl and he's having the OK spoon, how am I going to get the golden syrup up? through your fingers are you? Why? Try not to use too many fingers, just one Why? come on syrup come on right you know what you've got to do with that lot? No Melt it, so where will we put it to melt it do you think? I want and er Hold on Timothy next to that Mm, mm, mm, mm can I lick the bowl? Yeah you can lick the bowl and you lick the bowl and there's a spoon for you. Mm There will be a lot on it Tim, be careful, don't let it get everywhere, cos it's so sticky Syrup Golden syrup Yep mm, nice mm when it comes at tea time you won't be hungry will you, cos you've eaten, ate all this? mm nice taste mm Right now where we gonna put this do you think to melt it? On the cover On the cover on there on the cooker,in the drawer mum will you should make a nice , am I not very good with it, right now what do we do? Flour, salt, ginger root, we're not doing, baking powder and the bicarbonate of soda , right, what do we need excuse me no I don't get a fourteen we need a big spoon We might not be able to use our shapes until tomorrow which will be a pity won't it really? I think if you share that there, the two of you Yeah, but why? cos I haven't got any I think you've probably had enough actually, you get he's, just have one, one little bit, put your finger in, and then we're gonna put it in the, er three fingers put it in the wash Can I have this? What do I? Alright I'll have some. No I'm doing the Why? No No more cos it's all gone OK, I need somebody to beat an egg Beat an egg? Mm Can I do it? You can both have a go Right, both have a go Why? Why? anything? Where's mine well we only want one egg, but mum? what you have to do is, Tim have the first go, we have to stir it round like that with a, with a fork, OK Why didn't you let us crack the egg? Watch it Tim and see what happens because that yellow bit will start mingling in with all the other bit. That's the yolk in the middle Could you wash my fingers though Can I wash your fingers My turn you can wash your own fingers what's roll it out for? Roll it out, when you get a rolling pin and roll it out, that's when you need the cutters to make the shapes you see. But why do you have to leave it in the fridge? Your turn You have Christopher , Christopher your turn Here you are Christopher your turn, can you mix it better? Have some more Make sure the white , hold it still. Mum we've got a scoop and we could put it in there Right, do you want to see how it's really done, let me show you, watch, are you watch Tim, then you can try, watch Where? There you hold it like this look, hold the, the cup with, with the handle and you hold your fork like that between the and then you just whisk it I got to whisk it, whisk it you go round and round very fast whisk it that's it, fast Mum it will be better if you put it in that toy machine mum and when we put it in that toy machine, we could mix it like that wouldn't need you to do it would it? Not putting it in Right that's there all we need now is a little bit be melted Yes Yes,melted Not do you want to see then? Yeah It's not quite finished melting yet so I'll just bring it over to see and have a look, can you see look it's still all bits, lumps and margarine in it. Can you see the lumps of margarine? Why isn't it brown? Those lumps well that under there, can you see that? I did stir the spoon Don't make sure I got all mix in and then that, the other And it looks nice and it looks like cheese together It looks like cheese It looks like, hardly mixes it does it? Because the margarine is all on the top picnic, let's have a picnic Right Just a minute while I'll watch Now this should be interesting, tip this in here, sometimes you got to put this in, sometimes you got to put egg in. Come on put that Oh dear Oh I, I can't see I'll put it nearer to you and then you'll be able to, it's really a mummy job this I'm afraid I want to It's stir there, that's middle Are you making pastry? Well it's gonna, mm, yeah, well it's not pastry cos it's flour I think we've mixed it really, I know what you mean, we are going to tip it out of the ooh Oh, that's a bit of a lot, er but it smells and smells nice, so I could eat it now Ah biscuit Errrrr Ohhh There Oh, come on Look at that thing, look, let's have Yeah I'll wipe it We'll have to be oh mum we can play with any me and mummy . Mum this bit go right, we can get it go right round there Look Look mum look mum, mum Mm, yeah He oh, oh, No watch this, that, see that it's gonna go all the way round there, all the way round, all the way round there and all the way round again. Mum mine went round the round again. Mm. And the ginger bread man No. Can I have the ginger bread man? Ooh Can I have the ginger bread man? Now that's the big stretched can you, if you just put your finger on there you'll see how sticky it is, can you feel it's warm and sticky and If we put it in the fridge it will make it go all cold Can I have another and then it won't be sticky, I can't roll it out to make those shapes at the moment cos it's too sticky, yes we're gonna have to stick it in the fridge and when it comes out it will be just ready then. And we can't do any other I'm afraid we can't do any chopping up into biscuits, I should of checked the recipe before we started really shouldn't I? Should of started after tea Yeah, well it doesn't matter does it? You should of started the morning Oh we didn't do it in the morning, I was going to do it tomorrow night when you from school. No, but if you was Wednesday, yeah we've got to tomorrow after school right, now, I want six I want a minute, that's it now, that's the , right now, what do we need next? I want it We need a right,away, tell me when it's What do you want to do? Weigh it up Right that's there Can we have It's only weighed a bit Take your fork out it will weigh less. What? If you take the fork out it will weigh even less look at that? Where's the margarine Oh Now that is the same weigh, what about amount Do you like that or not? Mm, mm Mm Mum, What? You just take my fork You just take my cake It tastes like pastry Say It tastes like pastry Oh, ah, oops careful, cos you just spilt a load of stuff on the table I like it oh Is that raw egg you're eating, do you like it? Yuck You can beat raw egg you know,like it. How does the drink the how does the drink the egg? Shall I put that back? I want, oh I wanted to that Did you? just put these in a box. Put these in a box hello Have you made some nice biscuits, that's what I want to know? No we have Nan we need to have some on them that When I read the recipe it turned out I have to leave it in the fridge over night, so we can't have it Oh, I thought you were making those quick biscuits and me did you, oh Oh I mean I know a recipe quickly Yeah pastry well I did yeah, I did erm one the other for Christopher's school, but I, I didn't realize there was too much erm syrup and stuff in it so erm to do it quick enough cos it's too sticky, but you have to roll it out it's all Oooh Oooh it's not easy, you know how you make pastry Just a bit of sugar in sugar in instead, well there's I'm not oh I thought you were finished then,what number the oven and Well I'd put the oven on already, but I didn't read it properly Oh I'm so hopeless Perhaps I might get some help Well you might if you're lucky Oh That's A birthday Switch the telly off Mummy's birthday Blow out the candles Oh wait a minute I Happy birthday to you Blow the candles Oh I don't have a cake so I the sandwiches to Oh my word have the camera that will be Have you seen that before daddy? You ain't been wearing that all day I didn't wear, no wasn't wearing till lunch time was it? No So it must of been this afternoon when Our I went, I went to the Pig and Whistle the Jolly Farmer The Jolly Farmer The Amen Amen Amen Amen I said That's You went to the the Jolly Farmers, what for your lunch? No really No where we went to meet mummy at the Jolly Farmers said of driving all the way back round to collect them, he said I could walk down to the Jolly Farmers that's half way to Tesco's and they would have time to be there Jam How about some margarine first? No No, I don't want margarine do the window at me Ooh what was that? Nothing, just dropping the jam and the salad cream everywhere on the new pottery, well it's not that new any more is it, so Erm do you want some margarine on, in first? Can I have some bread first? No I think it might help I just asked him if he wanted margarine and he said no Can I have some bread please? Mm, mm jam What would you like I'd like some chicken roll please. Shall I pass it to you? No, no, it's alright thank you I'll just get do you like them? Good, would you like some bread to go with it? Dad can I get some ? Yes What? It's a bit hard actually How was day? Very busy I haven't stopped for a second. Oh Didn't you have your lunch either? Well I did have a bit of lunch, yes You managed to get out for your paper or whatever or is that asking to much? No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, cos I didn't eat lunch out Oh of course silly me. so I haven't stopped, you know, a moment to myself all day, Julie Julie went home this morning, you know, you know She did go home, you said I said she was gonna be ill she didn't dare not She did , she did come this morning, but er then had a message that she'd gone home. At least she showed her face She, I bet she didn't dare not come, after you said Didn't say what? Well yesterday apparently he told her that she had better turn up this morning cos of her excuses. Can you help me? She says that she's going to go to the doctor tomorrow to get treatment Let's see if she's in work tomorrow Will you help me dad? Is she that bad? Mm, sounded alright Dad I want more please Poor girl probably die in . You want some more coleslaw it's not good offering you that son you won't eat it. I wanted more tasty bread. Mum give you three, right I'll give you one more Do you want a lid to this or just holding it Tim? What? Do you want a lid to this or Yes you just holding it? I chop it for you? Yeah Chop That marmite is it? Mum Mm, mm Why's it half five? Five? No, it's only half past four But how did you get when it's usually five? Cos it's broken one in half cos I had a lid Oh did you on one of those I'm going to put a lid on mine. I don't want a lid on mine Thank you So how's the birthday girl been today? What you been up too? Good , very pleasant really. Started to make some biscuits and then read the recipe afterwards and she had to put it in the fridge for twenty four hours in the, the pastry in the fridge so they couldn't make the biscuits , there I'm sitting here expecting erm, a biscuit and nothing came, dear, it wasn't one of those recipes that you could make it straight away was it? Brought the wrong stuff then? No didn't read the end bit first I read the ingredients and I thought oh that's good we've got all those things then so we'll use that one so we got all the blender Mm to make this ginger man, man thing but we that matter And that didn't have at all, we just made erm biscuit men. And then they decide, found out they had to put it in the fridge for twenty four hours, so there was I sitting there expecting a biscuit, I didn't get one. So you're starving are you? Yeah Oh dad I saw fairies Ghosts Oh I two ghosts came in here, we told them that Right Mm And wasn't it? Has anybody been back to school or nursery today? Been to Holly Cottage? Not today Not been down the cottage today? Mm, yeah Were there ducks there? No No ducks no eggs, no eggs here oh dear oh dear But mum where it there's just one over here, no one 's like Mm duck duck Erm that's right, everyone's eating with their mouths full. You mean talking with their mouths full? I mean that, yes, talking with their mouth full. Sorry we're so excited. In the book, no eggs here, oh dear, yeah, it says we're going to look for the eggs with the ducks, and it says no eggs here, oh dear , the Oh dear that ducks do have eggs it's possible they could of been there but they weren't. I the duck, it said Yes they might be lucky. Mm, when I looked on the other page there was more. Oh you enjoyed Christopher's reading book today. daddy daddy Going to the toilet Daddy was a and you wasn't, you wasn't Mum and daddy You have to sit down properly Cos the I see Mum, can I have cake? Ow Careful , still haven't shown me What haven't I shown you? What bought you for your birthday Oh sorry, I will it's just upstairs is it I know. See it's such an exciting day. Did you buy anything else from the It's Well look, I've got it all in my sort of purse ready you see, and I went off to town today and you know what I bought? Zilch Oh Nothing. really, oh dear Well I was like that once, I didn't see a thing I wanted to buy. I wasn't there long enough really. Mum look at me I had a very happy time looking at things I didn't want Oh, Mm, I wasn't fussy that I I was enjoying it, but I just decided this was not for me wind up That's OK cos I got another another time won't we? Can I have some bread please? Mm I wanted some bread You've got loads of bread Mm. I haven't, can I have some pan? Some pan? can I have cream? Wish he'd make his mind up I didn't say mummy jam, I meant Well we know what you've said Well we thought he said jam didn't we Timothy? We we We So you went to town, right and you came home But I didn't go to town till half past ten I was going to me mother's at half past eleven, so there wasn't a lot of time. It was I thought you'd of been in town all morning, no. Was happily pottering about there, did my own thing, I had to open about nine cards when I got home, I didn't think at all Was there about nine cards? do that by myself without any help Don't you like your little helpers? Mm Have you got one over there? And you just bounce, bounce, bounce You just bounce, bounce over there No, bounce, bounce, bounce again That cream. What cream? Salad cream Cream, salad cream. Careful cos it's all in the lid, I think he needs help because on that lid take, take it off it will all flop out Put it on there Oh, just a minute now then, how much do you want? There's not very much there. There's enough for anybody Shout when When I didn't shout when Just a I Wants some more bread You wants some bread, you've already had two pieces Chris have erm You had a little and mine, I didn't have two are you? I didn't have You had one sandwich, but it's got two You had a bottom, then you had a top on, sandwich I didn't, I didn't have a top I didn't, I never had a bread Do you want some tomato? No, I want some bread Do you need the toilet? No, sure, haven't been for a long time have you? Wants some bread Haven't been for a long time, no, I'm not more I want some bread Oh dear I want bread, I want bread You want bread what did he have for lunch? I want He had a steak and kidney pie Bread, I want bread Not exactly delicate At least I didn't have to send mine back, the chap sitting next to me had Mummy I want to get erm I want some bread What do you think dear, cos this child keeps moping on about bread Don't you want birthday ? No Anybody I don't You do, like your daddy. Half a piece each, ravenous hoard You got any Happy, what would you like on it? Pardon? cheese Cheese, tortilla cheese or cream cheese Dad cream cheese Cream cheese please. Dad can I have the margarine? With or without margarine, no margarine, just cream cheese, easy. Is cream cheese the margarine? There you are Is margarine cream cheese is margarine? No it's not. Is it mum? What? Is cream cheese not margarine? Cream cheese isn't margarine no, you can use cream cheese instead of without As you like really so you're whacked out dear? He came home and he just laid the table, very impressive. I did try and move because of what you said Does cheese You don't You wash up I've got to wash up No mummy can't granny You don't wash up on your, when your mummy's birthday When it's your birthday It's mummy's , mummy's birthday Birthday Yeah, when it's your birthday, everybody does things for you, everybody's nice to you, have you been nice to mummy all day? Some of it. So you went to town, didn't buy anything, went to grandma's, picked her up, went to Holly Cottage Went to Jolly Farmer ah, what, you got to Holly Cottage first? No, we went to Jolly Farmer, dropped my mother in the Jolly Farmer and then I went up to Holly Cottage to collect Tim, then we went up to collect Ti Christopher I didn't go in the Jolly Farmer even though it sounds as though I did. Because we thought that would be quicker then you see collect it They know you same time Yeah Right. and then we off to Tesco's and who did we see in Tesco's once again Mrs Mrs , Again I think she must make a permanent hotel, we're there, she's there In the cafe, yeah in the cafe Look She was pretending to Mrs today, at school What's he doing So Mrs is teaching is she? There's no Mrs is teaching Mrs class cos Mum Mm How is this gonna With her dad, daddy was off work today down there There right Have you finished then? Has he finished? went along You not having any cake? No I don't Would you like to sit down and watch and see, watch Aren't you gonna blow out the candles? There isn't Yeah you can come and watch anyway Put candles on Right, well just watch me have my cake and have banana It's apple, apple or apple, helicopter Where's the banana that's there then? The banana's are not meant to be No they're not,is anybody starving I want I'd rather have have a cup of tea Well there's apple and the cake is it wet? Yeah cos I wash them turn it round Yes please, is the helicopter sounds as if it's going to the hospital, oh yes, look there it is, ever so close, can you see it Tim? Yeah, is it going to the hospital? Probably. Why is it going Well sometimes they fly things in and fly things out. Flies it out Like kidneys properly well it's true, that's what they're doing just the while we're having our tea But then, the usual at Birmingham station Yeah, what do you mean by happily being sarcastic? Yeah, very, mind you Mind you, it's probably it wasn't really their fault, there was a big factory in Banbury Mm and it upset erm, the first thing we it weren't Mum can I have another train from, to Redditch and it was Yeah and all the . We are very sorry the train at number eleven platform eleven, when you get to Lemington on it, get out if you're going to Banbury, there will be a coach, because there's a fire at Banbury, well I thought it meant there was something on the other side of the railway, it was, a factory near there so, so then er they get you in Are we meant to eat these before the cake, is that the idea? Or is that what everybody's doing? I'll wait, I'll tell you the story about the fire Yes, you carry on talking while we chomp they, they all sitting on, a few of us sitting on the seat, the girl that was all shaky she was going for an interview at a Birmingham University another lady was going on to Northfield well you're alright , you'll be alright we said if you get on the train where we get on, you're OK, so they get, getting out It's a place I really like What place? Erm then we said er another the train to such a place will be quarter of an hour late, we're very sorry cos it's held up, everything was standing outside the station, er they're all held up with this fire at Banbury, was upsetting everything This is a bit odd cos Banbury's got a long way to travel no, but it was upsetting all these journey why didn't they get rid of the train to Banbury? Ah? so eventually we got on Well do , do a lot of the trains go through Banbury? One an hour I thought they would oh about one an hour this happened to be the hour you see and it was on O six past the hour Yeah, yeah six minutes past the hour so there, yeah, so they kept giving you doubts, now if you're getting on this train make sure you get out at Lemington, so at about twenty past twelve, the twelve six went out from platform eleven, why, cos that will upset everything then, by, few of the trains kept coming round, then they said were very sorry but the Shrewsbury train will come in at platform ten that's where we're all waiting, so the ready train be outside somewhere, so, that came in just as the, the twelve, six went out about twenty past twelve these in and this girl got up so we said don't get on this, you'll never get to Birmingham you get on here, wait until we get on we said, cos they changed the train, oh she was getting all worked up, she come from Middlesborough, well I said well, well, anyway, we said no, there, there's no trains for university no, nobody will be going at the right time will they? there will be quarter of an hour so it's Yes but, yes but you see they got so mixed up that the , There's a helicopter again the Longbridge train, weren't a Longbridge train but Where? Don't know, I can hear it the Longbridge train was still outside at twelve six been out there, so a little bit they gave You miss the little bit they gave out the Longbridge train then they said oh know the twelve O six that there it is, oh look Ah Yeah ain't it? Well it's the So he, they got themselves right mixed up, platform changed He'll go round again What's it circle again There's another one Another one? Yeah, there's two Oh something's up Not that cloudy though Yeah there's one there that's it? oh dear Oh They will have to wait to come in now Definitely two of them just see the other one's just going over the yeah, yeah they will have to wait to come in won't they? only two, one after the other Yeah Exciting two lots of kidneys Yeah well changes platforms of all these trains, anyway after a bit we decided that the Redditch train was going to come in before the train, so, er they didn't change it to say it wasn't going to Redditch cos once when I was doing that they said to me, the lad was it,because it's not to ready to change that time, you wouldn't matter, cos oh there's people here waiting to go to Redditch, change it, so he said oh anyway it came, the twelve six came all the young folks going to you should of seen the number that had got off altogether aren't they? Oops but er, a lot of them got on the twelve six, you goes the twelve thirty one any way we waved to her when she got on it the coach you see was full at Bart Green, you got, at Redditch Did you not get on it then? Oh well, yes Is there every time when cos I mean there must be quite it wasn't Mum completely full Yeah, people were having two seats to one person That's right they only have it off the and when it comes to the There's a bit of apple there There, that's OK, don't worry, do you need to go to the toilet? Have a look see, got a bit of apple there Yeah, please go to the toilet before my cake come on He'll want to go to the toilet when you start blowing the candles out little horror I'd should go too if I were you. Nip off quick, do you need to go? Before we get candles for mummy's cake before the cake , right wet seat Who did? over here. Where? There. I think it will be nice if you sat on your chair, don't you think it will be nice if he sat on his chair? Oh definitely, spoil the if you don't I'll shan't think that you're there if you do, go on Go and Oh stand next to mummy you're tired? He's tired You're whacked out aren't you? doesn't really know what to do It's all that rushing around Aravalley Park, we haven't told daddy about going to Aravalley Park Ooh, I don't want to look daddy I'm passing you er You're not having any well if he's still wandering about, no he's decided he's not having cake though Eh, the birthday I'm excited well just leave it there because it won't matter, but daddy doesn't want me to see you see before it comes out, it makes it more exciting that way, want to come and sit on my knee? No, want to stand Alright, want a snuggle woggle instead? Oh I thought No, no leave the door cos daddy doesn't want mummy to see what he's doing in the kitchen see, if you keep moving that she can see. Were you thinking of taking a walk with it? Yeah. Oh I see, go on then That apple Carry on, don't bump into daddy on his way this way Daddy you go that way There's only me and you left at this table Dun, dun, dun, I be quick cos daddy just got it Right I see the, had the birthday and I went away Is it excited, are you going to sing for me? Yeah I'm going to play it on my guitar Oh that will be even nicer That's a good idea ain't it? Where's my gone? No, I think I put it on the er window sill somewhere Collect appearing and disappearing Well I, I, did see it, I think, I don't know whether I put it on, just look, look on the window sill and then Daddy, I think we need some new plates here Right Try and on these plates, can we? Dread to think what the cake's like, dread to think what sort of cake we've got Dad Oh thank you here comes the accompaniment it's better than teaching to play happy birthday it's my mum not that I enjoy teaching my here's a song, don't sing it I won't sing a word no I got a, we've got a I'm looking forward to using my cutters, I'm a bit disappointed I think Well I was just the one sitting there waiting for and nothing came I know the ginger bread boy cutter is rather large, I'm not quite sure have to do it A painful I shall have to use it fairly rapidly Couldn't you make a sort of sponge cake with it? How? Can't you make the cake and then cut it? Not yet Not yet Not yet mummy Yeah I could do then use the bits for pudding or something Yeah. It's got a sort of metal bar across I don't understand why that would be, why we have a little metal bar across. Oh to push out, make some things for later Coming I do too I Ooh, all dark, ooh look at this, happy birthday round the outside, oh it's erm Oh I say what's it called, Flintstone it's the Flintstones That's alright, right shall we sing right come along let's hear it happy birthday to you, happy birthday to you, happy birthday sing as well Tim dear happy birthday to you ,we can do it again can't we? Yeah Here we go, let's light them all again cos we've got to come and take a picture, some pictures. Right Tim you can sing to me again then Can I sing Go and stand near mummy dad's going to light them and then you can blow them If you went to daddy and I can see what you're doing Oooh Go round the other side and stand near mummy, then you'll be on me picture I want Don't forget to get the Flintstones in will you? The Flintstones Yaba daba doo Daddy I'm this side I just remember that's , don't get the cloth in will you dear? Right you two if you get in close, get in Get a bit nearer Oh, go past mummy that's it. right going to sing while we, while they take a picture for me Right hold Tim It's alright, he's getting his guitar dear Right Hurry up Hurry up cos the candles have nearly gone down , right Right look at, look at dad Right you gonna sing or not? Yeah Go happy birthday to you, happy birthday to you, happy birthday dear Mummy I'm called. mummy, happy birthday to you One of you couldn't decide what I'm called Blow it out Well hold on would you wait for grandma Right, are you ready? Mm, wait for grandma Cheese for grandma then I'll take a picture of mummy blowing it, in a minute, ready, cheese grandma Can we all blow them? Yeah, you can blow them instead of me if you like, oh no it's got to be me has it, for the picture? Alright, you ready? Alright then, the next one afterwards Alright you ready? You all blow The one after We all blow together right, ready, one, two, three Shall I bring some more knives? Just What but we didn't look. Did it, snow, oh dear We had the hail stones, he said he could look out and there was a cover of snow over everything but we didn't look. I think we had hail stones when we were in We did , erm, Oh dear on a Friday night, no a Friday night no way we only just got started no way well I'm in the way cos I'm sitting having my tea and you're supposed to be sitting having your tea, but you're playing lorries No You come and do it here Tim or you sit down there The word is excuse me please Excuse me What you have to fill in what you've done. Oh I have to fill in who's talking and things like this, I'm just doing it now cos otherwise I will forget you know You won't forget that lot Time, six, ten. We've been to Valley Park this afternoon Have you? Was that nice? Got some fresh air, yes it was very nice cos there was other people doing the same with little children, there was no big children except for that was very nice daddy, the cake Mm You like it do you? Good, how old are you dear, thirty six? How old's mummy? How old's mummy? Thirty five Thirty five,thirt that says thirty five, thirty six dad say yours is I'm a bit older than mummy Just one year One year yeah that's right One year That's right Well it's a bit more than one year really cos sometimes there's Oh don't confuse him No, sorry It's one and a half years And that's not very lot, well not just over six months Just over half a year Yeah, well it's longer than mine Not a year Not, longer than mine though Yes yes it is books Right Are you going to enjoy your birthday cake mummy? Mm, what are they pictures taste like? Mm not too bad is it? Mummy Is this a spare knife? Mum, it they couldn't take Did you know it was gonna be chocolate? Yes It said so? Mm This one with chocolate was more expensive than the other one Mum Probably why mummy Mm, the lady at the checkout when I got Tim's that time, do you remember, cos all the birthdays come together and I saw that for Tim so it make him one You bought one, it were nice that I bought one for Tim, it taste quite nice, the lady at the checkout said it would, is that you kicking me or the one, yes, erm,was another lady and child, taking beeline for birthday cake, you know, they went out the same checkout as I did cos erm, usually on a Monday there's hardly anybody there at all, you know, they I should think we represented half the you know, just Do you? Does anybody want any more tea? Yes please Maybe it's getting a bit cold by now It's not too bad daddy Isn't it? Cos mummy was saying didn't say Had to do some washing up at work today Did you? For nine What? nine people Why? Gilbert , Gilbert insisted that we provide coffee for all the people For all of the people? Oh so erm, he went to speak to one of the Director's secretary, to go and buy all the cups, I had to provide the sugar and er, then of course Gilbert went off for another reason to and left you washing up I had to do the washing up How old is Gilbert? He looks extremely young, is he He does look young is he as young as he looks? No he isn't, no he's round about my age Is he? Might be a year or two younger He looks like twenty three to me Mummy Mummy Gosh these two boys What, do you want the toilet? No, just need a hug Daddy is bigger than mummy aren't you? But not not That was very nice for the birthday girl Got to put You're not often very cuddly are you? If you want two three, four, five, six, seven, eight That's right. Well done Tim, eight there There's only eight balloons mum one, two, three, four Eight will they? No that must be because it's I enjoyed that One, two, three That It's this game eleven, eight, nine one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve, thirteen Well you wouldn't want to would you? Mm you'd want more than would you? Fourteen, fourteen What's fourteen? I wouldn't want more than These things because different There be twelve , there's eight there, nine, ten, eleven, twelve Oh no So you want One, two, three, four, five, six, seven You chocolate on the top of where the chocolate One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, I want drink Mum , I remember bit which I don't like of the cake Mm You see the top bit over the top? mm It's not that picture of what he said it's the little bit in there Mm, I like that I like that Mummy I like the black chocolate bit mummy it's between bit I don't like Oh I thought it was very nice, I enjoyed it all Well worth the I suppose dear All of us finished , all of us finished I know Mum You did very well to have gone birthday and get home in time for, whatever time it was you did You birthday mum can have all of that I did actually go into Sainsbury's on the way home, but I Did you? They haven't got any thing have like, no, I tried that with er Tim, cos Sainsbury's would of been really more on your way wouldn't it? Yeah Naughty mummy You haven't got any She had I'm surprised at that It's probably because They have a shopping Sainsbury's They had individual things, you can buy sort of individual cream cakes and things like that from the bakers actually, you can't buy like individual ones They might have them frozen in the frozen bit, frozen gateaux and stuff But it's not quite the same with sort of birthday cake with a fancy thing round it is it? Mm I've shown him these I've show him that thing where Christopher staring again Mummy So we're gonna get the original magazine or have you already got it? You can buy it yes Well I, I think they will give it to us, cos er, Martin what's his name said that we'd get complimentary copies, yeah you mustn't touch those Tim cos those are matches and children never, never touch matches do they? Why? Because if they suddenly catch fire guess what would happen? We shall lose him All the house will be burnt down And you as well and be very, very sad and you'd get very sad and it would hurt a lot. All day Yes Mm And all of us wanna be burnt Yes Yes all of us could get burnt and all our things and your guitar, everything But even if we ran out Well we but the house wouldn't would it? It would be sad if we lost everything wouldn't it? So you won't play with matches? If you get a match and you strike it on something else it would still Yes, it can do And we get out all the way even the box if you strike it on that, that will But it strikes on particular things, it strikes on something rough, but you never quite know, know what, not, no good trying it out because you never quite know whether it's going to strike or not, when you get to be older, we'll allow you to strike a match, but you have to be quite older to do that Mummy we'll show you how it works It's best to know isn't it? I did I'd rather be around at the time That's why you stand and play with matches Mm mind you some children fish about it in cupboards don't they? Oh You know high up Cos high up, erm, I usually ten people before they reach Hello you back again? Yeah , what do you want now? Well some people do very good things well I You You want me? Some people tidy up time Over here, and erm she has a Oh how you got a light on? How you got a light on? Why have I got a light on? Well we wanted to see what we're eating. how did you put it on Somebody switched it on I expect, we wanted to see the cake didn't we? Somebody put it on after you blow the candles out Yeah I never did, I never do Who did it? Daddy I think No he didn't I did You didn't You had your eyes shut Do you need the toilet yet? No Well you must do soon I expect so No I don't want the telly Do we really need any more telly? No. Story time I think Twenty past six already I want erm watch the But you said Well I know I said but, I didn't realize what time it will be, why don't we wait until tomorrow morning and then you can watch P C Postman before you go to school? I want to watch, I That will be an exciting thing to wat look forward to Move it quickly I want to watch forward a bit the telly It went long ago I want to watch I thought he did telly I wanted to watch the telly Then you'll lovey, let's get you a book, read you a story and pop you in bed, mm? No I don't want to I wanna watch the telly I want to play a bit with dad You want to play a bit with dad? Mm, I want to play with I'll wash up dad Oh good gracious When you wash them They're not dirty give them a good scrub Dad, will Mm, as opposed to a little dip, good scrub No, that was daddy Oh you find something I want to play with you Looking, well I'm just I want to play with you I want to play with you Yeah, I'll play with you, do you want to play cars? I want to play bricks Bricks and cars and cars then we'll have a story Mum,playing cards here? It seems a shame, yeah, yeah nice innit. A shame to pull, shout them out behind the curtain er? Oh Whatever was that? it's only the brick Mm it's only the brick, do you want some help wash washing up? Well you can push it through Chris and your with advice as to where to get thousands of candles should I need them Er he just played this I don't know I wasn't listening Mm go on then go on then It went like this, I need two of them Er, who's is this and then five of those , mum are there They've got the numbers here look, one, two, three, four, five, six, seven One, two, three, four, five, six but we don't need seven No, not for twinkle, twinkle little star No, but we need it for Right Tim I think you've got enough over here No, need a bit more,game I don't think you can play one, two, three, four, five on there can you? Can we play it on the big one? I don't know, just have to play it on the piano I think before you oh Tim, what have you done dear? Oh, we lose them We have made a mess , you will lose them, you're right We lose them Just dropped all the gear down there Alright then mum if you're interested, then we can do that in the bath, can you put them in the box first Tim can you come and I didn't tip them out you didn't mean to do that, it just happened it went like that got to put them all , yeah well who's going to put them all back in, daddy's helping look I didn't drop them you go and help him I, I, I didn't drop them Yeah, are you going to help me? Aren't you playing the piano?shall we get that book that you have, it's yellow I think it's down there, we haven't done that for a long time have we, we can do that while daddy and Tim are playing Here? Should be , yeah, somewhere on there, Right, Tim can we come and play please? no on that flat pile Tim don't bring everything over on the flat pile bottom, no, bottom of the drawer, the book What's that, does that want throwing out? I think so, I don't know what that is Dad, help me I don't think you need everything many things Here's my book What you going to play with? Read the classic beginning of the book You know, where the film was all the time mummy Did you know where the film was? Now where was I? On the piano Mm, mm I knew it was But that was sitting there and when the and it was easy to tune daddy it's better when we don't where our Mm, it would of been better really, but never mind Well it's a good job that we'll just be thankful for what we've got shall we? Actually I'm not very fond of the school piano it's Did you find all the keys? Find Line them with your little finger on the other hand, or your thumb on the other hand will do that's it find them on your other hand, your other hand ah? find them with your other hand You only have to do the other, you have to do there, have to find a C? Yeah, just tells you about finding the C's, can you find them with this hand? I had that Find it with that one I need a flat C now, what's this? This is the middle C's really Oh Where they come right, that's the one with the right hand , this one, in the middle you have to do it with that hand I hurt that one key in the middle, why? In the middle of the piano, you're not yeah that sitting on the chair properly that key there and there's three there and one, two. I know it doesn't work quite like that, that is the one OK, can you take the other hand, that's that one How many do I have to do? Put a right hand on that one How many do I have to do it with? Just do one there, don't panic right now now this is the one where you do where we going One, two, have to count four, do you remember? One, two, three, hold it on while we count four two, three, four, one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four Two, three, four, one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four Remember, OK? One, two, three, four One, two, three, four, one two, three, four, one, two, three, four, one two, three, four Brilliant, OK I'll show you how to play with the other hand Other hand oh, wait till I Practise One We're look at the wrong music oh, you have to do, how many, four again? Yes One, two, three, four, one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four Brilliant have a go now one, two, three one Hold on, you didn't count before we counted three Do you want me to put Oh, what Erm, if you just leave it out somewhere we'll put it away One, two, three, four Pardon? Just leave it out one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four. that right, oh now then, do you remember the clock Aaagh before you have to count two there then another two there, it goes one, two, three, four Alright then, let's try What, you start with your other hand, start with your right hand that's it And you go to that one that's it that one you've got it right one, two one, two that one and again I'll try again one, two, three one, two, three , ah, ah, ah, that's the, still the same hand there, you have to do two with that hand and then two with that one yeah, two with that, two with that one Yeah, OK, right ready, one, two, three, four one, two, three, now swap hands, one, two, three, four, let's start again one, two, three, four, ah, I know now let me try Yeah, go on one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four That's it, brilliant Right OK, can you do all that lot then, while I do this little bit? Want to try it all together Alright, go on then this one or that one? Well you tell me, that one's your right hand, that one's your left hand, which is your right hand? That's it. That's right? That's your right hand and that's the top one there, this little squiggly thing here Right then, shall we do one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four, one, two, three four That's clever, well done Right, OK, see if you can do it with me messing about down here then One Hold on, give me four one, two, three, four one, two, three, four brilliant that was Ah, now this is the one I haven't done for a long time, now this is the one Now have a look at it and see what you've got to do with that, got to go one, two, three, four one, two, three, four with that hand do you know and then one, two, three, four with that hand That's it Oh it's just the same as that one Well it is except you've got to go one, two, three, four, clonk, clonk, clonk, clonk one, two, three, four That's it, and then swap hands but you go like that, go on then, Yes, , one, two,one, two,one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four brilliant, OK, right let's see and then how we go give me four to start with, I shall one keep that hand ready otherwise you'll discover that it's not there when you want it, use it, OK one, two, three, four hey, hold on go steady with it one one, two, three, four four , Well done, you had a technical hitch in the middle, but we did that, we got there oh now then, do you remember this one? I haven't done that Yes you did all of that, you did all about the I don't think we did this one properly did we?you only use your right hand cos you push on that foot yeah, look, there's a C remember, then it changes a note to a D Then D That's it, find your C Yeah that's the C now you go like this And where's your D? You go like this do you? C That's it, but use this finger this time No you go C, D, C, D You do more or less go like it but not quite, we shall just have to see how it goes Goes yeah that only got to count for four, that's gonna go one, two, three, four one, two, three, four then to D one, two, three, four one, two, three, four back to C, but this time only two one, two one, two then D one, two one, two then up again one, two, one, two one, two, one, two and then you've got to go bomp, ba bomp, Yeah, go on then but why, why go mum Mm why do you have do it with that one? Why don't Cos supposed to be a Why's it like a train? Perhaps when you hear that bit you'll hear it's still like a train C, D there C, D, C, D, C, D, C, D C, D, C, D, C, D, C, D now careful oh erm C, C, D, D, C, D, C, D C, C, D, D, C, D, C, D Well done, that was very clever that would be the if you play it so you get it all right Mm one, two, that, tut, one, two, three, four one, two, three, four, one, two, three one, two, three, four one, two, three, four, one, two, three , no go on change on that one, two, three, four one, two, three, four , up again one, two, three, four, one, two one, two, three, four, one, two got to go back up one now we've just got to go one, two, three, four this time one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four, one one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four oh one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four Well done,that, so that goes for four, that's for four then those go one, two, three, four, like that you see, but it's four down there, do you want another go, with me doing that funny bit? Watch out Shall we have a go and see what happens? We might have a disaster but it won't matter we can try. Mum, won't it one, two? Four that one, that's the four, that's the four, that's the two, that's the two, that's the two, that's the two and that is a one, bom, bom, bom, bom, bom that a that's that's the one Yes, you should go right at the beginning four and another four another four four, four, right OK and then it goes right, OK ready? One, two, three, four one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four one, two, three, four one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four That was good,started out just getting going. Do you think, shall we have another go at playing can daddy hear then Daddy can you hear our train train here Oh that would be nice, I could hear them over here. one, two, three, four one, two, three, four , one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four, Whoops, you've forgot to change one, two, three, four alright, try again, right one, two, three, four one, two, three, four one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four, Well done, yeah,on the next page,on the next page and I every done any ooh,with your other hand have you ev do you know how to play? I'll try my best look at this, you've got to do this with your left hand this time. This one? Yeah and this time there's a C there and then that's a B B goes like this? Mm that No, no C and B this time, we're going down a bit, it's in your left hand Oh got C then this one B is that like, what's that? D D, is that the D? Right, you ready? Right, one, two, oh, hold on one, two, three, four one, two, three, four , one, two, three, hold on, hold on, hold on, that's a four that one, one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four two, three, four oops, that's got to go fast that one, one, two, three, four, cos they're crotchet one, two, three, four, remember? Mm Right, ok one, two, three, four,one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four, one, two, three one, two, three, four,one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four, one, two, three one, two, three, four one, two, three, four Did I do it wrong? Nearly, you were in nearly alright, I'll play it for you up to there ready it goes like this one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four, and this is this bit, one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four Oh it's both the same Not quite cos those are minims there look with the lines down, but the whole is it one, two, three, four one, two, three, four, one, two, three one, two, three, four one, two, three, four, one, two, three Whoop you did it wrong, got the wrong note there, there that's the alright? One, two, three, four one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four One, two, three, four one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four Good lad, well done, that was very clever you've never done that before have you? No And then you have to do the same thing again for the second line look Ah, a different No it's exactly the same look boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom a different one of time No same time and everything, same thing all over again why did they go like, do you have to do it both together? No, you do that line first then you do exactly the same thing again At the same time? No, after it Then you can do it well well it should be easy you play that and then you play that Oh, well mum I want to try and do it Go on then, do you want me to point? Yeah One, two Is that it? Yeah, three, four one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four, one, two, three, three, four one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four, one, two, three, three, four then again oh one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four brilliant Who some of these Let's go and check who it is with Tim Is it for mummy or daddy? Yeah, it's grandpa It's grandpa, that's exciting, hello grandpa Granny, granny it is grandpa too grandpa thank you very much , oh are you not going to sing? I shouted breakfast is ready and then I started my breakfast, cos you had gone upstairs weren't you? I don't think we've got any this morning Are you going to work? Yeah, he's going to work How did it get really big mummy? How's Tim, cos he doesn't sit down properly He's, finished. Have you seen the butter Tim? Is he a fidget He's kneeling up Is that enough milk Christopher it's very good It's just that I'm saving. Put it more milk over the, that, what about that bit there dad. Er mum it doesn't matter where everything's got milk on does it? It doesn't matter what? Where everything's got milk Here's one when everything's got milk on it No, I wouldn't eat half of an apple here's one Will you sit down on your bottom oh no Yeah cos I don't I think I'm looking forward to a normal day honey Yeah, would be when I'm away. This is A bit proud of it you know Bit of a seems to be wide awake could of got up What, was I weren't very good I'm afraid What day is it? What do you think? It's It was Tuesday yesterday. What day is it today? There's Monday, Tuesday Wednesday Wednesday well done Yes ,on a Wednesday, this is the day when mummy goes teaching at school in the afternoon I did Christopher's school Mm, mm. and do you still have story time story time I think, Mrs still there and that Mrs did he tell you Yes he did, with Imogen Alright,it's old age you know, Erm, you didn't tell me anything about what said wants a whole don't are they? Who wants a whole? want to swap it over A whole? Erm Certainly not a whole that one Do you want a whole? Yeah, I want a whole with that whole Erm apparently You can't have a toast cos I'm gonna have a one You have a half of it so the whole of it. I wanted a whole one Oh no you don't I wanted a whole I don't like wholes You'll get it'll be half a whole , get me a bit confused here Erm especially I did see it on the Mum Mum, can I have a whole piece of toast please? No, Is Tim having it? It's Oh dear Mum I just wondered I forgot to Oh dear I spoke to that was Monday night, yeah, she's been head of department, did I tell you that? You didn't say anything about that Oh right,I thought I told you then. No, Oh, well she rang up, I've seen Christopher in the catalogue actually and they and could ask if publications can the one that we see We've seen the book yeah, ah, ah, she's seen the catalogue, ah she's got, on the, yeah I see he's in the catalogue oh yeah I thought it was going to be a magazine? Oh, oh no, you're getting confused, you know the book that is out, that is on Yes , yes beginning careers, well it is in a catalogue, the book is in a catalogue, yeah, so there's a front cover of the book sitting in the catalogue smiling at her, saying please buy this book of Christopher. Oh I see, so he's even more liked Yeah We don't want to buy it, we just want the catalogue I see, oh So she's ordered it because she's started Liam, they're having a pre-packed school at Durham choir boys, whatever it is, cos he's from school,apparently the locality of demanding six year olds and under so they and another la labouring school Oh Oh Tim Put it on there, oh it's too late to put it on there, oh that's alright do it like that I can't You can use your cloth daddy Mum Yeah you haven't, mum,doesn't know No You do it What are you You do it Do what? Mm What do you want me to do? That do Just leave that on the plate like that, that's fine Why? Er It's when we're going to take it in the kitchen and put it away when we've finished. Anyway I've had enough Right, just, she said she's going to be head of department, it starts at ten OK, so she'll be ahead of herself, then as she'll be responsible for getting staff said she still hasn't, got she said, little love I didn't want a, a whole Timothy wanted the whole dear They've both got whole Oh that's clever That's it They they both had half a whole, I thought that's what you said half a whole Oh dear, yeah that was my fault, sorry now if you have my plate then you won't have any trouble with that erm, what Erm, I'll eat the half Teach us what age are they? Erm, erm What age will she teach then? seven, eight year old boys at the moment, and she will teach children under That's enough she, which is what she did at well she had the five to six read I guess she really liked those, she only got moved because of er the Yeah spread it I am Hurry up cos he wants the margarine, can he have the margarine while you're spreading on? I think you've got enough there haven't you? Mum Mm I've had the Did you? Yeah I had it go over there When we've had half a whole, I'm thinking half a whole we have got half a whole No they've got half a whole Oh, they've also got half a Yeah I thought I was making the best of both answers You were dear, very clever I can do it, how can you tell the difference? Well there's two different wholes aren't there?chop toast you can chop either that way or that way The one with you chop the chop and then there will be squares That's right, there will be four then, four bits, life is so complicated. Mum, but it's tricky because when, when you chop that way, and then that way chop it that way it's all Mum and Ours do actually Empty now Tim? What would you like now Tim on there? Seemed to have got rather a lot of margarine on there, hope you're going to eat all your toast today, not like yesterday Erm margarine the margarine yeah you've got margarine what else would you like? Marmite Mum, my fingers are Rice Krispie in where? In my tea, oh yes there is , soggy, it's out how did it get there? I don't know plopped in ,toast in my Probably dropped in when we were shaking them in the bowl, Rice Krispies seemed to get everywhere, undo the thing and there's Rice Krispies everywhere, And there not only good It's a hoover day today Tim Why? We haven't clean for ages It's hoover day so we'll have a go at it today And where I gonna go? You're gonna help me, you're gonna stay here I'm afraid Why? Me and you doing the cleaning in the morning now granddad's off What I, where I gonna go? You're not going anywhere, you're staying here Can I help you plant the ? Bulbs, er probably not cos I think I'll have to do while you're at school cos daddy tells me it's gonna rain this afternoon, I'll have to do that this morning, pity that. Why can't we do them tomorrow? Because it said on the packet you'll plant them immediately after buying and we don't know when Aunty Gwen bought them and it might rain tomorrow as well, I think I ought to put them in while it's fine, now In in the ground, I'll save you a couple if you like, you can plant two by yourself. I'm not a plant that you must of bought them yesterday. Mm. I'm You want to plant them, you can help me plant them cos you'll be around Can I have It seems pity to go to school and not plant bulbs And daddy going to go work Yeah, there be me and you planting bulbs and cleaning the house this morning That's a lot Yeah it's a jobs morning this morning kitchen floors a good thing, we'll have to kitchen floor Tim, that'll be fun won't it? With Christopher No he'll be at school, just me and you, scrubbing away at the floor you'd rather do it with Christopher wouldn't you? Sorry about that. Tim help us do the garden Mm, well he won't because you'll be at school you'll have to wait till the holidays and then Christopher can join in and It Saturday's Mm Where holiday Where is I have, where we have to go to When you what what , say that all again Because, mum how long are we staying at Jo's? Oh that's ages away you know, it's not till May, you can go two nights at Jo's Two nights about and what day do we go? Go on Saturday Saturday, so we go home No go home stay Saturday night and Sunday night and we go back on Monday yeah but we won't be going home, we'll be going to York Straight after Mm, mm Why? Cos we it's a long, long way to Jo's and just to go, right all that way for two nights would not really be worth it. Tim erm licked your knife,right can we erm have a I've got to go in a minute. I'll just have that I wish to choose Oh dear Erm, A wise man built his house upon the rock, a wise man built his house upon the rock, the wise man built his house upon the rock and the rain came tumbling down, and the rain came down and the flood came up and the rain came down and the flood came up A wise man built his house upon the rock, a wise man built his house upon the rock, the wise man built his house upon the rock and the rain came tumbling down, and the rain came down and the flood came up and the rain came down and the flood came up I drop it the rain came down and the floods came up and the house on the rocks slid down, but the foolish man built his house upon the sand, the foolish man built his house upon the sand, the foolish man built his house upon the sand and the rain came tumbling down the rain came down and the floods came up and the house on the rocks slid down, but the foolish man built his house upon the sand, the foolish man built his house upon the sand, the foolish man built his house upon the sand and the rain came tumbling down splish, splash and the rain came down and floods came up, the rain came down and the floods came up, the rain came down and the floods came up and the house on his band fell flat and the rain came down and floods came up, the rain came down and the floods came up, the rain came down and the floods came up and the house on his band fell flat That's the flat bit Mm Mum I'll be Are you ready? Lord Jesus, thank you for a nice sleep, thank you for another day, please help us to do the kind of things that you want us to do, prayer for Christopher to behave at school, help him to do his best and for daddy at work, for Tim and I as we stay at home, help us to know the kind of things we do and this afternoon when grandma comes we'll spare the time for her as well, Amen. Amen I think he's ,I read and the rain do Rightie oh oh. Can you wipe your hands please cos you'll get sticky all over the piano Mum I've wiped Do it again Do it more do it lot's and lot's cos I've noticed it's very sticky on here, that you should wipe it cos it Why? Cos it, if you put sticky fingers on, you won't mean to, it'll just won't How did you know before you touch the piano? Because I felt them last night and felt ooh this sticky anyway oops You be home normal time or even earlier later I was, estimate normal time Mum Ok which hand do I have to do it with? half side each or mum What? Mummy well I think half five, but then sometimes quarter to Yeah I know Mum I suppose I ought to think quarter to six mummy so I have this pleasant surprise when I I stay in the car cos er I don't want to walk, too cold You don't want to walk where? To school it's Well we have to walk to school love in the car , In the car let's do a gap Christopher One, two, three, four That's very good Bye Tim One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight Bye, bye everybody Bye, bye everybody Bye, bye everybody, well daddy bye, bye daddy I don't know what I'm saying One, two, three, four, one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four it Tim will you eat it up please? You it one, two, three, four you don't want it all, that your trouble? I don't want them all up there Why not? Let me chop you that much, you eat up that Did you hear what I said mummy? Mm, oh very good aren't you? Did that one then Can do you it, can you? Can you do that one? Oh you've got to do some writing first. I don't want to again, Oh come on Christopher come and sometimes it in the right panel, that's the right panel there and then it goes in the left hand and then it goes to the right hand and then it goes to the left then right, the left, the right, left, right, left, confusing, but it's that hand to start with and go like this one, two, three, four it goes one, two, three, four they go one, two, three, four hang about, you see what it says here oh you don't play that one, just the something for you to write underneath, I thought it was complicated Did, did, that's all something to do with writing that one need to read a song? I don't need to, no, you just have to write it Is it this one mummy? Yep My get a Come on Tim please move Oh, oh or else we're going to be late are we doing the bulbs now? aren't we, yeah it's going to rain as well, look at that, we're gonna have to put our coats, our rain coats on Oh it's raining in time for us to go to school, come on Oh Tim come on, aagh I don't know, they've probably gone a different way today why,she set off before it rained Just don't let anything No I buyed one, Timmy's dry isn't he? Yeah, you Oh Come on Tim, you coming? Pardon? I think everybody's just going in Ah there's Jane look morning your boy's take them in , Jane come here near the window, see you later, bye, bye, love you, see you later here you go then, bye Annie see you later, love you Oh sorry take care I play that money game Want to play what money game? That money game with one Well we've got to we'll go there later. We'll change the sheets on your bed Tim sheets off your bed No that's not I just thought to change a wash, cos I think they've been on there rather a long time. Some more in there Mm, there all set Yep, think, no keep putting I can't Just put one thing in, not a whole lot of things I can't do it That's don't like this rain ,extra grass, grass seed, the other day just on those bare patches. No. Wait a minute we have soap in there we are too much, wow aha, I'll switch the top one you can switch the bottom one, there Where? pull it out then, that's it well done now what time is it now? Twelve Oh, oh I feel very satisfied I've managed to clean the place Er, have you done your picnic thing? What picnic thing? Put your slots in Picnic thing, put your slots in Oh no, not yet, I for a while it's on the er display. Open me post now for the first time, oh oh that's nice oh I can have a update for supply teachers, Wednesday the fifteenth of April, you baby sit for me? What you do? It's a day, trip What day? Computers, you know, software on computers. Well I tried to get on one on Monday I tried to get on one two Mondays ago in Redditch and they told me that I was too late, the school told me too late so I rang up the place and said I would like to go are you having another? They said there's a possibility of one coming erm April in Kidderminster if you're interested and I said well I would be interested now it says I'm now able to offer you the arranged dates for the update for Friday Oh There's no trouble is it really, just the morning as well as the afternoon and collecting Christopher as well Quite, I can't It starts at nine fifteen, so I'd have to bring him over to you quite, quite early You bring him to me and then Yeah and then I can take you home afterwards, see if it finishes at three I won't be home till quarter to four at the earliest Oh we should just be right, won't we? Yeah oh I'll enjoy that, it'll be a nice little trip please bring a packed lunch, coffee will be provided, no funding available for travelling or subsistence costs, typical they always do this on a supplies teacher, you have to go because you want to do it Well this is a cheek really because I should imagine it's one of the most over subscribed courses as well, I mean when I went on the language and, and the national curriculum and that other thing that I did on the national curriculum, masses of people there. What are you thinking of Is his face I did I thought what a pretty thing to do Are you happy to do it, are you away or here? I won't be able away I don't think Fifteenth of April That's the week before I was hoping they weren't gonna put it on a silly day That's erm Is it? I'm gonna wake you up When's Easter then? End of April isn't it? Oh, it could well be then Mary's talking about Oh will she be here Right, those poor need feeding again They don't go Doing what you told me to unload it Oh I'm really pleased about that, cos last time on a, I was really disappointed I'd been refused the course cos I thought oh, it'll be right up my street that, cos when I was teaching full time I was quite into these er computers at the beginning and the one that went That's too much miles out. You know if it had been in It's too much It's not too much, it's fine, you watch them gobble it down, only because it spreads out Ah because they've been so much more technology, you know, since it's started Oh I know yes I don't want You want to know the latest Yeah, and er, apparently there's a thing called in the afternoon it's called erm software for survivors What are you doing? I'm gonna get under Sounds like a good scheme your hands Oh are you? Oh I wondered what you doing Ah here's Jo's birthday card Pull any harder, you'll go flop if I let go I what? If I let go you'll go on the floor Yeah Oh dear, terrible. here's hoping your birthday will be unfrogettable and the frog hopping about on it. Who was that? From Jo? Yeah Come on then Yeah, oh that's very nice, a book token as well, three pounds I like a book token cos I always feel a bit guilty buying books you know, cos I've got so many I do, I think I've got somebody buying me another so I go and look into that oh I do what Mavis does now, she goes and looks in the book shop And then goes to the library to get the book she wants like that, you know she didn't Oh If it's a book token that's it isn't it really? take them back. Mavis stands in the book shop writing the name and the things down you see and then she goes to the library, she hasn't been out properly yet with her knee has she? Who we talking about? Mavis. No, she said in her letter, that she hasn't, well it was just a little square of paper, what are you doing dear? Oh running round the room with a tape measure Clocks says Clock says half past twelve nearly. Mummy bed time Oh no, surely not It's all the way round here and under there Twenty five past eleven, he should be asleep now. Huh, Michael gave Gill erm a sun bed Oh where's sleep A what? a sun bed for her birthday, to encourage her to rest Oh cos she won't stop, she won't put her feet up, you know she's pregnant That's when we go to sleep Ah? You know she's pregnant? Oh yeah I know that She still rushes about like I don't know what That's when we go to sleep So er , he's given her a sun bed Is the hand on the two? I think that's rather clever A two? You look, a little hand on the two and a big hand on the seven two Has er Andrew recovered from his tiredness then? Me? Or is he still tired? Oh we were fine last night, we just sat plonked in front of Inspector Morse all night, you know, every time the er it was nice video is but we just got the the, erm you know like when the telephone goes and you think oh rats I'm gonna miss the programme You can stop it you can, wonderful, so every time the telephone went, which was quite a few times, we stop it and then we, you know, we fancied supper in the middle and oh it was nice I missed you I think I have to get one. Well play the game with me, well it was very pleasant I must say Well Laura's got one, the more that you,the more you look at It's a luxury though, I mean you know, you don't need it, the fact that we got one for Christmas it was very nice, but Well I was only thinking that there's not much on the television so No, and so, but you can choose what you want to use, to watch the video I mean I find it particularly good with children, we'd I don't, I don't think not really hardly ever watch the children's programmes official We you know we watch bit's and pieces if we Right then, Christopher likes this, that Wild one Yeah, the Really Wild Show yeah She can't manage normal size What does she have big ones? No loads of little ones Three when she goes out for a meal she's got a problem, now if that was me I'd be having loads of big ones Oh dear, quarter past. Ten, you've got the big hand on three and little hand on ten No we didn't that's ten, that's eleven, six, ten and then ten and then twelve and they Do you think he's worn out our little friend? No. This little friend? No, he kept waking up constantly, you, didn't you? You kept shouting for mummy or daddy or somebody What you keep waking up for? Yeah You're a silly You go to bed to sleep I waked up He seemed to be awake for a long time, I think, you know like you wake up and you don't know what to do with yourself, I think it was like that, so every quarter of an hour or so he kept me, shouting for a drink he didn't know quite what to do with himself Yeah. Your mother used to sleep like a log and she still that Oh that's a very nice letter, I was just thinking that maybe erm Jill hasn't got her birthday card cos she's the type of person who would write and say thank you, you know to me She has got your address? She has got it and it was a lengthy letter so, but I thought it would be included in my birthday present Oh no but she's not, she's done it separate, in fact I think that second class stamp Has she got gone going to school? Oh yeah Is she not She's going to carry on till Touch that first of touch that May Touch that Cos Oh I like that they always told you what date you got She's got six weeks, well you can go on it when you like really, well, you no well, what they do is they tell you the earliest you can leave and then you can leave after that if you prefer give you a date and that was it. Right Still got it I was lucky, cos I had the summer holidays Right included in mine, so it meant that they paid me for the summer holidays cos I didn't officially really No I hadn't officially stopped work till the first of September. Catch, catch I got paid for August which was quite clever really cos my date would of been sort of half way through to book my holiday What am I supposed to do with this? Hold it tight mummy I can tell you that if I let go you'll let on the floor. What's this crayon doing down here? Oh he's been Crayon crayoning Oh he's been crayoning OK. he's been doing a blue track sort of something Yeah, yeah he's doing blue , see I've got it. That's because I didn't have time to sit and colour with him so he decided he'd do it all blue himself didn't you? He hasn't done any green trees either I one box. Yeah you can go and bring something else done. I only brought that one down because we haven't seen it for a long time, just choose one I'm allowed to thing that you want to play with don't just bring down any old thing Don't bring down the box just bring something, one thing. A game perhaps, that'd be nice. Have we got time for a game? It's twelve o'clock nearly Mm So we're not having Matthew any more Well we might do Mm, when grandma's got better Exactly but I'm not erm, putting myself out, it's like like April the fifteenth and everything if you bring them over to my house Does it say I've got to do anything about it or does it say I'm on it anyway Do you have to write in to say that you accept it? No, I don't think so, if you are unable to attend on this date please contact Janet at ITS Worcester, well I am able to so that's it then, enclosed a map, look forward to seeing you, jolly good should be exciting, I'll never find me way round Kidderminster You did say you wanted I say you did say you wanted to go didn't you? Oh yeah, oh I said I was very keen Zian Hill, School Does Christopher, haven't they got any, does Christopher do any er,com computers I with a game Oh yeah, he's done loads of it He's not really not really mentioned it Mm, I think they have a system whereby they have it in the classroom for a week And then somebody else has it and then somebody else has it, so it's sort of once a month or something it turns up and they have sort of an extensive thing on it, I think that's the way it works. Oh that's nice you've brought the tractor down Mum can't make out where this school is mum down Birmingham Road, there we are, mum I can see it see Have you got his name down on a creche then or not? Who Tim? Mm I bet the teacher will be I wanna play snakes and ladders I don't know, I hope so I wanna play snakes and ladders Snakes and ladders, you haven't tidied up that yet. Better tidy up that game before we play snakes and ladders Where's snakes and ladders I know I don't know, you should know, not me I do, in this cupboard Is it? It might be on the top Where? on the shelves Oh Regional accent there, regional accent Why? Mm and I was told at one stage that they used to revert back to Yorkshire You're not now, it was true when Tim was mm he's asked me to say things,I no you've not said it like you do That was that one Is it? Thirty odd years in Manchester is definitely er I expect it would wouldn't it? Pardon? I don't My dear, oh I'm sorry all the time yeah well grandma wasn't listening properly, there you are Oh, I feel quite pleased having cleaned everywhere and popped I feel like I can embroider the rest of the day now Oh if my Till some sort of disaster happens I think in the fridge It's always such a hassle you're trying to do something and you're just gonna have Your don't then got to provide activity I used to get that you Oh well you do. It's a play or to deliver home? Yeah, no it's a play get the jobs done and then we used to deliver them back again up the street and one of us used to go in, I used to divert to Derby We don't have any erm Chris has never bothered us bring people back from school, I don't think he knows them that well, well I mean he does know them, but they're not really his type, you know, He you can imagine that What? In man not seeing them at. No, I mean he's quite happy being there with them Mm and I've heard him say oh can I go and play with such a boy, he said he likes going to Kirsty, Kirsty and Hannah and Kirsty and Graham he's quite fond of them too and Adam But he's a little loner ain't he? and all those really Mm are sort of his type of player mm see what I mean? He gets fed up if people don't play properly Likes to set things out and make them go you know Mm rather than throw it about mm quite a certain little somebody we all know he's toys do it, no I put it there. They played ever so well this morning didn't you? What were you playing this morning when you got up, you and Christopher? Didn't you have a game? Snakes and ladders Was it snakes and ladders this morning? Oh no it was a tractor thing wasn't it, or did you play snakes and ladders as well? Snakes and ladders I've noticed he takes things from Christopher now Mm and we didn't go and sleep He fell off to sleep cos we did go up ladders Did you, didn't you go on any snakes? No Huh, good ain't it? Yes, there's definitely there some proving, mind you, you'll have to pick the right time of day, do you know what I mean? I know what you mean No. I'm doing quite well really, I'm quite good. Do you have to or meal or What Pardon Look Ooh you're making a mess of it. Mm Ok, I'll just have that one. What you having now? I will have that please What's he having now? Well I don't know, cos he's suddenly decided he likes yoghurt I think. He used to love yoghurt Yeah I know, he really has and then he went off it, Oh he's a fusspot I don't know Mum apple You want a yoghurt with apple, your gonna start with a yoghurt are you? Are you having yoghurt? There you go, there's the yoghurt, I'll get you a spoon can he have this spoon? I'll be pleased if you like yoghurt again Tim, pardon? Does he not liking yoghurt? Mm. I was very when he said he didn't like it for sure, Well he's like that different taste, never sort of with Christopher stands for what he likes and what he doesn't like, shall we mix it round a bit more to mix in? No, Yeah no no do that Watch what you're doing, I don't want it on me Do you like it? Oh good, perhaps he had a funny flavour or something that's put him off Don't know do you? I know when I was at you just had one thing with a funny flavour and that'll put you off that thing Yeah, yeah, mm Well . I think that's got slightly more ooh we got the er, the what's it group tonight haven't we? Wonder if we've got any milk to give Morgan, oh no we haven't aha, when I take you home we'll have to get some more milk, otherwise we'll be stranded tomorrow What coffee? that This is coffee, yeah Come on, would you like another coffee cake? I don't really want ano , sickly, take them home and give them to Paul We want that You want that other one nan No, it seems to bit filling Were they filling? Oh I think that one you apple I'll have a yoghurt first Same as mine Same as yours, yeah, I've given up buying funny flavours now I just buy strawberries cos nobody ever liked them Mm, I don't blame you, not many of the cos some of them are, are a wretched likeness. Well I like, usually I like three out of the four and then nobody seems to like the fourth Nobody, so you're left with it so I have to Christopher likes Christopher likes black cherry doesn't he? That's his favourite And he likes all long Mm, mm and I don't No, you just like strawberry do you? You're like your mummy, I only like the red ones really, strawberry and raspberry I don't like any of them really I don't mind black cherry I mean if I was supposed to eat them, then that will be it love You, you like all of them No Well she eats them I'm not fond of things like apricot and nectarine No I, oh I wouldn't touch them Huh I don't fruits of the forest I treat with great suspicion What do, when I do I'm not fond of pineapple ones either You like pineapple I like pineapple and we like and then yoghurt, but put the two together yuck horrible, mm I think it's things with big chunky bits in I don't fancy which is silly really cos that's the fruit in it, but still Mm, yeah, that's true Weren't things when you were a little girl, it didn't have bits like that, a lot of things come in that we didn't use to have Mm, oh, sort of international things at the I'm on the bottom I notice now , lately it, er you know the last few years some of the things you used to get as a treat abroad and now here mm mm Mind you they don't taste the same as Don't have to the family size yeah, those erm potato waffles, I tried them once, nothing that I did, Mm I'm making a steam train What's a name wasn't there on Saturday June June I took her class on Friday afternoon Is that why she's away? Mum She's been away all week mind the pips, the pips every time I got to them they had about twenty odd teachers there at the No, but the last teacher will be Oh they wanted me for the whole day of Friday but I said I'm sorry I can only do you half day if you're interested, they were, they were desperate. Weren't No they wouldn't be when I'm des when they're desperate, everybody rings me when I'm well I don't want too much, see what I mean Mm having told them to stay at home with Tim, I don't want to be it's not fair to him, I mean when he's old enough to understand Well it's quite fun just going off for the odd day cos then he goes off to see Ian, he enjoys that but it was two afternoons last week cos I did Thursday afternoon and Friday afternoon It's not bad really normally I've a , well she's dumped hers on me I mean she's got two children to dump on me so, I don't feel bad about that in, that we know, we decided that's what we, we didn't mind doing and there no trouble, if fact they're less trouble cos they're together than they are You going to go teaching? no, we're just talking about when I did last week remember when I went teaching last week and you went to Ian's house didn't you? Went in two afternoons Has Martin got chickenpox then? Yeah anyhow I think she's hoping to come to tomorrow cos erm, idea in the air that on Maundy Thursday instead of having an ordinary mums and toddlers we'll have a in church for half an hour and then a run around cups of coffee with the big toys in the hall,a good idea Mm That'll be a nice idea, it's a bit tricky, you remember the Chris what we did at Christmas, that went really well, and we thought perhaps something similar book for Easter, yeah, don't know what we'll do but cos people like John and , so he's not teaching full time, in fact some of the schools have holiday aren't they? Mm that's why I thought you wasn't doing anything on that day, Well she wasn't going to and then the elections got in the way. Got to, are we having that thing? Well we still don't know about that, and it said in the paper that they're having election in the church hall, nobody in the church knows about it. Mm, can't get it if they don't So if they don't act, they've had it, but, if they wrote and asked quick then It's got to be someone with a with a caretaker hasn't it be elect them, there isn't one is there? Why a caretaker? To open it up and see to it Why can't they? don't usually. Oh, they will have to if they want to won't they? Pay the caretaker Well in that case I expect, you know, some of us could become a caretaker if they're having to pay us you'll be up there for seven in the morning That's alright, open it up and then what do you do keep puffing along and sweeping it up whether it's put cigarette ends on the floor They could do. there not to smoke in the place but I bet they will Our Man , our Manchester buses are not smoking Are they? They've down now Very good, I don't see why we couldn't be really, it's so horrible for everybody else. and Birmingham station We're desperate for those at work Birmingham station is non smoking Mm, I've noticed that one They give them all Well that's sensible for It is, they've give it out on the trains as you're coming in Oh please remember Birmingham is treated as a no smoking area, if you are smoking put your lights out Mm, mm,of the King's Cross Society you could have a King's Cross Well that is it in Birmingham's Station couldn't you? I, well that's why they put all those election round the Mm Is that what all this refurbishment's been about? Mm, mm, cos of King's Cross, had to come at all it's awful and one time you just went straight on the escalator and now you've got to go This is With grandma? telly Something else on the telly with grandma, what will it be grandma? I don't know Twenty past one what do you normally watch, Charlie Chalk no? Well last, last week we were watching er, I don't know what we watched Probably watched the video didn't you? Video I think we had on I know something at twenty past one on B B C two but I wouldn't like to say what I don't know what it is now, erm he probably don't need to watch the telly for the rest of the time we didn't, we, we went in there and played a game last week before we, we played a game cos we done not a lot this morning like I just sort of be zombies, I'm sure we could do play with I've had enough. You've had enough now, let me have a look Have you eaten it all up? Oh he hasn't eaten it all mummy Just half of it, still none the less is it can I have a apple please? Well why don't you finish this first?, I don't No think you should, I don't think that we should have an apple if we're not finished our yoghurt, do you? I had enough Well if you've had enough that's it then we'll lose it and we don't do anything else cos we can't keep doing that leaving half a bits and that, this and that I only eat half, I only eat half Well you , you've been doing a lot just recently, the last few days Is he only having half? Mm Yeah having bits of things and then saying I've had enough and then having something else you know? Oh why, anybody can do that can't they? I know , I'm not into that really I think if we sort of thing, we eat it, end of story and if we don't want it fine, but you don't have That's right, if you don't want it don't have it anything else as well I want a half You can get some little apples, but we're not, nanny couldn't get some. Only half Only half as it goes I'm happy to go to Tesco's on Friday Only half Right, I'll meet you there. Only half Only half what love? apple No, I'm not breaking into an apple if you haven't finished your yoghurt A tiny bit No A little weeny bit no, cos you're getting silly with this only skin and we don't get silly with our food in this family. So you can either, either have the rest of your yoghurt or nothing. Only Well finish your yoghurt if you want your apple as well then it will be full won't it? It's too much I think he's got the I think he's fooled with two things, I think he's too full. I think he's has loads and loads of things had a lot's and lot's to eat He's had as much as grandma you've had a lot and lot to eat and your You just forget it and you can have your apple tomorrow, I'll save it for you, right, there you are I'll put it back in there and you can have it tomorrow that's Tim on it For, for tomorrow Apple He's Don't do that It's coming off look mummy falling tears Falling, I want Oh dear , what, nanny dusted your crumbs on my nice clean floor that we scrubbed together Did he clean it? Mm, Tim and I did it together Oh, ah, I'm falling oh no, no, no Mummy's not going to let you fall I, I, I'm falling Are you, where you going to? Mm, plonk I've fallen He's getting quite good at it falling, fallen Oh good He managed to remember hid and hidden this morning, instead of hidded me did it and Mrs not me did it, I did it, no not you, me Yeah It's really confusing, cos kids are they'll all of been in at play time today won't they? They will Erm, probably horrible and the play set Have Do they do any with the things? What when we go and see it? Mm Yeah, the snag is the last couple of weeks, someone's has What did this come down? Snakes and ladders Oh, oh put the other things away snakes and ladders, doesn't go on too long Ah? that's our home produce snakes and ladders it doesn't go on too much, it only goes up to number thirty Oh Yeah, well go on too long don't they? Well just looking at . I made that for Christopher when he was I remember you making it now, yes. Can you do what? Can you do that Not right at this minute cos I can only have four at once, but after I've had this four I'll be choosing some more people, I'll be looking round for somebody who's Can I again? That one's Keith's and that one's now listen carefully cos before we start we need to talk about something, just put your things down on the table alright? Now what we've got to do, we've got to decide which things are going to float, what does it mean to float James? Erm What does it mean to float Er what does it mean if you're going to float, what will happen? It'll float on the top won't it? If you're going to think what happens,goes down under, now then we've got to decide what we think's gonna happen before it happens. Why don't why Hold on a minute, Kevin what have you got there do you know? Sponge A sponge, it says sponge on there, what do you think might happen when you put your sponge in? Er Don't do it, just you tell me what you think might happen. Drown You'll think it'll drown Float you'll think it'll sink do you? Float You'll think it'll float do you? I know what it What do you think Theresa? I think it will drown You think it will float, what do you think? It can't. You think it can't float, you'll think it will sink. What do you think Mark? Sink You think it will sink, OK then Kevin shall we have a try and see what happens? It floats doesn't it? I was right Just leave that in there, that's it remember it's floating What have you got? Spoon That's it, you've got something there, what's that one? Spoon Spoon it's a plastic spoon there, do you think that'll what do you think will happen to the plastic spoon James? It'll float. You think it will float, Float Float, what do you think it'll do Mark? Sink. You think it'll sink, what do you think, no just leave it there , what do you think Gavin? Float You think it'll float, what do you think it'll do float You think it'll go down, sink . float, go on then James see who's right, oh who said it would float? Me You did, well that's now we've got Now what do we have float, so where does the float there, OK, can you put your label next to it that's it, there you go, that's lovely,what have you got there? A brick A brick, it's that it's wood, it's wood wood, would like to sort of feel it? Yeah It's wood Let me because, because I tried it before You tried it before? Yeah You know do you? yeah Go on then Theresa what's happening? It's floating, it won't sink will it, so where do we put that one? Where shall we put it? Put them back safely to there So we need float , yeah but it's What's Gavin got here? Sink You think it'll sink?float, what do you think Kevin? Erm Feel it look, it looks quite Erm, float. Float, what do you think Robert? Sink Sink, ok, go for it Gavin oh Float what's happened to it? It's sinking right to the bottom isn't it? Can I have a look inside it, I reckon there look,. See what's happened, hey, hey what's this? A broach you've got You've got what? If you put it in really carefully so the water doesn't get in, you watch what happens, watch what happens? Floats It's floating then down in the water, then what happens? See, now what we gonna do with that then? Can you remember about the shell Mark, what happens when we put the shell in? It did float It did both didn't it? Can you remember what made it sink to the bottom? Rock Rock yes, what made it float then? Erm What's that say Miss? What's they say? What's they say? That one says float, do you want one that says float? Not that, that one says sink? What that say? That says the same as that look, float. Does that say sink? See , float, float Does that say sink? That says sink, now then what you gonna do with all the sink ones then? What does that there say though? Going to go in the sink one, the plasticine, you do the plasticine in there, you've lost the plasticine label, there it is No, look Now then, Gavin You're not listening to a word we're saying, you've done sponge, that's good, now what else float? I don't want to. What else float? What does that say Miss? Spoon This one you don't have to draw round it, just draw a picture of it with a nice broad stem and a round head, now Mark what was left? Is that the shell to go in both, good idea there Mark I didn't mind that What is that Miss? What in there? What are you going to put in the floaty one? This is your floaty side, there's a cork look, that floated didn't it, so you could put cork What is it then? then you need to write cork next to it, draw a picture of it and then write it. This is the floaty things alright, even the shells that's good, what else floats Kevin? Can you show me what else floats? You put that one in the sink, sink, so let's hope that's the thing that sinks I bet it don't. Could that be a piece of plasticine? Yes, there are Right, what's in here now James? That's er, erm spoon. Right this is this is the spoon and what's this one? Erm the play doh The play doh, the plasticine, what happened to the plasticine, did it float or did it sink? Sink It sinked didn't it, right to the bottom, so that needs to go in there, so make some plasticine in there. No that don't have to be Right, let's make plasticine And that one's there erm You have a look for something that floats A sponge You make out the labels on the side there That's a sponge, that's a sponge that is There you go Michael That's a sponge Put that right here A sponge That's a sponge OK, gonna have to write sponge there. OK, what else have you got? Now then Kevin, you've got some brilliant shells here, what have we got here in keeping that, is that the plasticine? Yeah Let me write plasticine so we'll remember. sponge And what's this one? This is a shell, this is a shell Yeah and that's the over there and now what else floats Kevin? What else floats? What's on here, Sponge sponge floats, right draw the sponge in there and then we can write sponge. How you doing Gavin? Is that the right one? What is it Julie? Sponge Wood. Yeah, but some wood Put the cork up there so we know, very good, well done, plastic spoon, good boy, right, what have we got here? What's in the one, what's it? Right, can you see if you can write plasticine there for me Their turn, their That's OK, look I'll help you with plasticine, you did very well there, have to pick the spoon, is this the sponge? Yeah Right, let's put sponge in there, now what else have we got, oh were leaving it there, never mind, what else can go in there? What about the wood? Let's put the wood in here No No float float sponge You've got the sponge lovely, now what else do you need? Good girl think of something else that's to go in this side. I need Or, we needed labels actually don't we, what have we got in there? What's in there? What's this bit? Play doh, there. That's the spoon right, there you go look plastic spoon Oh Yeah here and then we shan't get mixed up. You, you there. Now what else floats? You not Wood Wood, a piece of wood. Yeah, Which is the wood, that one there right, look let's see if you can write wood where the, the label for wood about there, let's see if you can write wood for me on there. I can't Oh you can, I've just got a, a of the water witch, have a go. If it makes a mess James I'll help you but you try first. What's that one? Plasticine that one A piece of wood. Right let's super, now then what else needs to go in this floating one? We've got a shell, and we've got a sponge, what else floated Kevin? That one That, what's that called? Wood Cork that is, cork, you feel it see what it's like. Sponge. This is the wood here, feel the wood, see it's different isn't it? Does that say sponge? This is cork and that, that says shell look, there's sponge, alright? Sponge. Draw the wood and see if you can write wood. What is it? In there. What is it? You're brilliant, I knew you could do it, it's wonderful, now then what else do we need to do in there? We've got wood, sponge, spoon, cork we need now James look Is that a float? There's a cork Is that float? Cork, yes, cork floated every thing floated except the plasticine What's that and the shell. Er, er that says shell that one, that says plasticine, what do you want it for then? The plasticine Martin, Mark would like the plasticine I can't do that word, I can't do that thing. Can we put these over here otherwise they're going to get rather That's fine, you're doing fine lovely, now what else are you going to do with that? Doing the cork, oh there it is, look there, what else do we need to do? Nothing You've done a sponge, you've done the spoon, you've done the shell, have you done the, oh you've done the shell in the middle, was that the right shell? Then we'll know it's the shell under there, can you? Have a go cos you're doing brilliantly, just write it there , You do it oh no you're so good at it these days, lovely, well done. I've done me own That's beautiful , let's have a look Gavin good boy that's lovely, wood, cork, plasticine, plastic spoon, sponge, I think the cork actually needs to go in this one, so what happens when we put the cork in, can you remember? It sink. It didn't sink darling it floated on the top, so we really need that one in there but I tell you what we'll do, because you've tr , written it so nicely we'll put a little arrow and we'll put there, that means that goes in there, alright, that's smashing now all you need to do now is write your name on it write your name at the bottom finish. I'm nearly finish. Right, write your name at the bottom Debbie What you, what you have to do this? That's it, G A V in there I N like this, down and along the top like a bridge No, you've got to do that first then with Mrs turn. Oops, lovely, good boy, well done Gavin, do you like to show that I want to Mrs, that one goes in there, that's right Can I have a go? That one goes to Mrs Can I have a go? Can I have a go? that's lovely James, that's fine, OK, you'd better put plastic spoons on or else you'll make, be in trouble because if you floated a metal spoon, now what would happen to that? Bottom sinking to the bottom little one. Hold on where you going with those there? Busy at the moment Er why you pushing, hey, do you mind we're busy here and you'll I've lost Gemma I don't know Mrs . We'll call you if we need you Gemma you go off and do something else and then will talk about. I, this one's gone a bit strange, look at that, how you doing now, Kevin? How we doing Kevin? Shell, plasticine,you know I told you need in there, you need a plastic spoon, that's for wood isn't it? Let me write wood there Mrs cork there you need Mrs good boy, float, brick Mrs Mm, now you just need your Kevin at the bottom there, so we know it's you, can you write Kevin? Has Kevin Beautiful Can I show Miss Hold on let's check you've got everything, plastic spoon you've got, sponge you've got, what else do we need, wood, have you got the wood in? Have a go with the wood, here's the wood, write Michelle the answer's no, but later on I'm sure there'll be time for you to do it too. Michelle come away from that paper you haven't finished the work over there, you've left one letter but you've got two more to do Shell that says darling, shell, shell, that's just right for under there isn't it? I'll find you the one that says for spoons, cos it doesn't say just spoons it says plastic spoons. Now James can you remember what happened when we did this? Yeah Can you go and explain it to Mrs when she's finished talking to Christopher? Yeah. Explain what happened, but just wait until she's finished talking to Christopher cos she'll get fed up with you if you keep Here's the here's the Mrs Is that a word? It was a word it got a bit wet didn't it? Yeah it It's alright we can manage How we doing now? Beautiful, have you got everything in there? I think you,Kevin it's on the floor yours Oh have you finished?, you can go and do the next bit now Mrs I can't do it whatever the next bit is , why what's happened? Will it not in, do it sort of down that way Can I do one Mrs ? one, two, you just hold on a minute can you, just wait till Mark's finished, cos it gets a bit confusing cos we get too many people knocking about. Let's just What is that called? Well done Theresa ooh you've forgot to put the shell on Theresa, Theresa you've forgot the shell where you going to put the shell? In there And it did both didn't it, it went sinked to the bottom and it floated, but can you write the shell in both? Have Did a shell in both? What you doing now? Thanks James you can potter away now, thank you actually there's a job you could do for me James, if you like to, find all the things and put them over here with the labels stuck to them, can you do that for me? Find the things, and get the labels to go with them Can I do one? that says plasticine so put that next to the plasticine No not yet Victoria when Mrs says put on your name Then see if you can work out what those says and put them in the right places. It doesn't erm, it doesn't erm And you can help right, let's see who you've got, this is floating and sinking Kevin's playing that. float, sink and we've had Gavin, and we've had James and we've had Mark and who else was with us? Mark, William, Andrew Bonitta Someone else we had, who was the other one? Kevin, where's Kevin, Can I have a go now? there's Kevin, Victoria yes you can come, can you go and get these other people as well? Can you go and get Leisha as well and Sarah OK, Leisha and Sarah OK James can you just go away a minute, away you go Where's Kevin, leave your book on the table then, A Oh sorry have I okeydoke, Mary Ann can I borrow this when you've finished? Right, can you sit there James, James I have asked you to go away please could you go? I was Hey been putting this in. OK, well that's what Now then somebody's messed up this look it says sink here, never mind, can you see it here it says sink, it's a bit wet, this one says float, good boy Mark well done, put your name on the bottom and then we'll be happy. I like this one. I'm first . You've got hold on this is something Victoria, Lisa, Sarah, there was somebody else What is a go and get me Gemma Gemma Gemma she's busy Is she busy, you busy are you love? Right we'll have you then Jemima I wanna be there that's Jemima, I'm Sarah Sarah I am er Victoria, put that down please Sarah for a moment because I want to explain to you what we've got to do, are you listening Victoria? What we're gonna do is we're gonna try and see which things sink, what does that mean? If it, it get, goes in you have to put it in that one Hold on, listen, listen the question, what does it mean to sink? To Listen, listen, listen, listen Victoria are you ready, what does it mean to sink? Are you listening, I've told you, I've told you at least If you sink in a swimming pool, what will you do? twice You drowned Yes, you'll go to the bottom don't you, alright, so if it goes to the bottom it's sinking OK? What's floating? What do you think those children are doing there? What's floating? Victoria what does it mean to float? You do in a swimming pool because what happens to you, it makes you keep up the top doesn't it? So if you place it if you float you'll stay at the top, some people can float and they don't need arm bands, they stay at the top and if you sink they go to the bottom, now we've got to look at these things look and we've got to decide whether we think they're gonna float, stay on the top or whether they're going to sink and go to the bottom, now then what's this here? What's that called, do you know? No, it's called a cork, cork, you feel it Victoria and tell me what do you think, you think that's gonna sink or do you think it's gonna float? Sink You'll think it'll sink Only you think it's gonna sink or float love? You think float, what do you think it's gonna do Lisa? Er float Float, why do you think it will float? It's light You think it's light so it can float. You'll think it'll sink don't you, why do you think it'll sink? Because it's only little Because it's only little, OK pop it in and we'll see what happens, oh, what's it doing? Oh no It's floating poke it down and see if it'll reach, it'll go to the bottom, that's it it's on the bottom, oh no it jumped up, it's a definite floater that one. Er A, definitely float It don't want to go down. It doesn't want to go down, jumped it up again, leave her Victoria. That was, that was a float Now then Victoria what else floats? I'm going first Hold on, which one says float? That says sink, sink, that says float, looking again huh, float Me Look at the sink Can I put one in? Now then, what have you got there? What's it doing? What's it made of Victoria? I'm not Victoria Oh, sorry. She's not Victoria I'm sorry, Sarah. Shall we have a little introduction and then we'll set off shall we? Everybody ready? If you want to be happy and have a happy face and spread a little joy around and then there is just one way, make a face, make a face, make it as happy as you can and make a face but spread a little joy around and then there is just one way Scary this time Make a face, make a face, make it as scary as you can and make a face, if you want to be happy and have a happy face and spread a little joy around and then there is just one way, make a face, Silly make a face make it as silly as you can and make a face That was reasonably good Consider with a few interruptions in the middle with people coming in, we've still got interruptions now with people talking, Ross stand by me Shall we do that one again, with them all standing up and taking part? If you stand up Well they're sitting down again cos they were so hopeless Mrs , no that was a sit down, listen, that's a and it goes down, down down Sit then please. Right on your bottom When you feel that next time you can stand up without the chattering Oh sshh are you ready? Oh no, that was my bit, that was my introduction, you get ready with your first word, what's your first word go Er, make your Make, no it isn't, if is your first word. Make a face. No, if Gavin, If you want to be happy and have a happy face then spread a little joy around and then there is just one way, make a face, make a face, make it as happy as you can and make a face, if you want to be happy and have a happy face and spread a little joy around then there is just one way. make a face, make a face, make it as scary as you can and make a face, if you want to be happy and have a happy face and spread a little joy around and then there is just one way No, I'm sorry three times I've said it, it is not make a face at the end of the chorus, it's there it, and there is just one way, the chorus says if you want to be happy and have a happy face and spread a little joy around then there is just one way, then you make the face Are we doing the silly one now? No, I think we'll just do the scary OK, right, so what this one now we've got to do? Just sing the choruses again Right See if we can get the chorus right If you want to be happy and have a happy face and spread a little joy around then there is just one way. Right I've got that No need to chatter I've got When the introduction is being played you don't talk, now the quicker we get through these and practice these then we can have the other songs to sing, now I want please. Right we'll begin by there are hundred of stars that shine The introduction There are hundred of stars that shine there are hundred of fish in the sea, there are hundreds of people the whole world over, there's only one mother for me, only one mother for me, I love her and she loves me, there are and shells on the shore, there are and shells on the beach there are the whole world over but there's only one mother for me . She caught me being rude today She caught me being rude today but I know but I know she'll tell stories to make me laugh she'll tell stories to make me laugh she makes me laugh she makes me laugh she makes me laugh she makes me laugh she'll tell stories to make me laugh she'll tell stories to make me laugh and to make me feel this bad and to make me feel this bad I love my mum I love my mum she's the best mum in the world she's the best mum in the world Right shall we try again with that bit there? The introduction When I'm not happy every day, about the things I said today, she caught me being rude today, but I know, she'll tell stories to make me laugh, she makes me laugh, makes me laugh, she'll tell stories to make me laugh and to make me feel this bad, I love my mum, she's the best mum in the world My mum remembers long ago when she makes snow men, together My mum remem go on then, my mum remembers long ago when she makes snow men in the snow and pulled a face at Mrs Jones long ago when she makes snow men in the snow and pulled a face at Mrs Jones and then the rest is but I know she'll tell stories to make me laugh, the rest is the same as you've just done, OK? Door, knock My mum My mum remembers long ago My mum remembers long ago, when she makes snow men in the snow, and pulled a face at Mrs Jones, but I'll know she'll tell stories to make me laugh, make me laugh, make me laugh, she'll tell stories to make me laugh and to make me feel this bad, I love my mum, she's the best mum in the world I learnt one When's the You know when Oh that's not so bad then the erm Joy have the joy have the joy have the we are happy now again And now the second verse is who, she's as generous as Robin Hood and all his merry men, she's as kind as Florence Nightingale and then as kind again, right super mum she has x- ray vision, she can see through see through me with a voice of rival, rival calm when she called me in for tea, have a go She's as generous as Robin Hood and all his merry men, she's as kind as Florence Nightingale and then as kind again, right super mum she has x-ray vision, she can see through me, with a voice or rival calm when she called me in for tea, Right, can we just have some general Yes, let's have a little Can we have Baa Baa Black Sheep? Oh, we can have Don't do Baa Baa Black Sheep right at this minute,have bananas in Yeah that'll do. Bananas in pyjamas are coming down the stairs, bananas in pyjamas are coming down in pairs, bananas in pyjamas are chasing teddy bears, half of you will be alright to catch them on their way . We need some bananas in pyjamas to come out here Oh, now lots of people have got their hands up Tell you what we'll sing it again and then you pick some bananas that look like bananas in pyjamas that are singing really well. Banana's Hold it, two of those, two of those coming down the stairs wait for it no, any minute now Bananas in pyjamas are coming down the stairs, bananas in pyjamas are coming down in pairs, bananas in pyjamas are chasing teddy bears, half of you will be alright to catch them on their way . Well I'm going to choose er the little ones who are going to bring to me on Friday why why were the bananas in their pyjamas? Oh go on tell us why Come on Kevin why were the bananas in pyjamas Kevin? Why put, why were the bananas in pyjamas? What are they? Their skin I think. Oh their skin I never thought of that, I just think that they were bananas jumping about in stripy pyjamas. I love What about I love here, I love these ones, I do love I'm being If you sit down you might get chosen but if chosen but if you're shuffling around, that's it. You might not get chosen this time, you might get chosen another time. Come on Katie, there's two, two yellow bananas. Alex come on how many is in a pair? How many is in a pair? Two Two, right then, one pair of bananas, there, your,alright. Now here's some teddy bears for them to chase Some teddy bears to sleep, er Come on Yvonne come and be a teddy bear, oh yes just right for teddy bear And me and you're gonna be a teddy bear? Come on then, up in front, Yvonne you've got to get up in front they're gonna chase you OK? alright. OK bananas, you any good at going down the stairs, can you lift your knees up high with it and you're gonna go down stairs, dum, dum, dum, dum, dum, dum, dum, dum, dum, dum, dum, dum, you try that with me, ready, go, lift a knee ready go, dum, dum brilliant dum, dum, dum, dum, dum, dum, dum, dum , And Charlotte can she do it? dum, dum, dum, dum, bit worried isn't she? She is Just have a little go dear it doesn't matter if it don't turn out right You'll get there and when it gets to the chasing teddy bears you've got to run as fast as you can, so you'd better move out of the way Oh run as fast as you can, bananas Calm down we'll have to let them catch you right at the right, where the music tells you too,dum, oh Bananas ready are the singers ready? Yeah We shall need some more singers to do,are you ready to sing cos we might need you for something else up there, you'll never know. You're very good Bananas in pyjamas are coming down the stairs, bananas in pyjamas are coming down in pairs, bananas in pyjamas watch out teddy are chasing teddy bears run half of you will be alright to catch them on their way have you got any? You've got to catch them Oh catch them on their way you were a bit slow there weren't you, ah? you didn't catch your teddy bear did you? Run quick and catch them Come on then give us your do you want another go? I'll have a go, I'll have, You'll have another go? Have a go at that one yes please alright then let's . Would you like to make a Five, four, I'll tell you what we'll sing the five verse and then you can pick five, five singers then Five little speckled frogs had not a speck of luck each little look delicious yum, yum, yum, what have they OK, have you got five, we've got one so far We've got two two , are you any good at being frog? three,four can you squat down like this? Like this, rimmit, rimmit, rimmit, go on have a go at doing with me, rimmit, rimmit, come on, rimmit, rimmit, oh my god and then you've got to leap into the pool, are you ready to leap in the pool like this, you've got to rimmit , can you do that? Oh well done Valerie you'll be brilliant, are you ready? We'll all practice, are you ready? One, two, three rimmit, oh brilliant, oh you come on you can do as well, one, two, three rimmit, oh yeah, When you do it jumping in the hall you'll have to go, we'll have you first number one, two, three, four, five erm, no young man,are you ready Oh what a beautiful well done I hurt my leg. Here goes the introduction, are you ready to sing? Can you hat this time frog Five little speckled frogs, had not a speck of luck each little look delicious, yum, yum, yum, they won't be made a fool when it was , how now they now there are four green speckled frog, frog, frog, four little speckled frogs, had not a speck of luck each little look delicious, yum, yum, yum, they won't be made a fool when it was , how now they now there are three green speckled frog, frog, frog, three little speckled frogs had not a speck of luck each little look delicious, yum, yum, yum, they won't be made a fool when it was how now they now there are two green speckled frog, frog, frog, two little speckled frogs had not a speck of luck each little look delicious, yum, yum, yum, they won't be made a fool when it was how now now there's just one green speckled frog, frog, frog, sshh, one little speckled frog had all his speckles off he did look delicious yum, yum, yum, he won't be made a fool when it was how now they Oh very good, yes, I'll be clapping I did it first And I did it I clapped first Right, here's the bear song What's her name? The bear went over the mountain the bear went over the mountain, the bear went over the mountain to see what he could see, and all that he could see and all that he could see was the other side of the mountain, the other side of the mountain and all that he could see was the other side of the mountain the other side of the mountain Miss I know this one Well there we go, you'll be able to sing beautifully won't you? It goes like this The bear went over the mountain the bear went over the mountain, the bear went over the mountain, to see what he could see, and all that he could see, and all that he could see was the other side of the mountain, the other side of the mountain the other side of the mountain was all that he could see If you watch we can do some actions to this, you watch what I do then you'll be able to do it in a minute, are you ready I am going to be a bear, you help me sing The bear went over the mountain, the bear went over the mountain, the bear went over the mountain, to see what he could see and all that he could see, and all that he could see was the other side of the mountain, the other side of the mountain the other side of the mountain, was all that he could see So I had to be a bear till I got to the top of the mountain and then you have to look round to see, I wonder whether, who were those girls who were messing around over there can't stand that, mm, do something with them oh dear, Mrs Victoria Oh dear, Mrs could you stand up you're gonna be bears Mrs OK, and you're gonna climb over the mountain, well not all of them, are you ready Victoria you turn round and join in doesn't matter where the mountain is ,middle weren't you that's right, you get to the top you have to are you ready? Off you go be a bear, you go to the spaces, you ready, pretend you've got a mountain to climb, off we go. The bear went over the mountain, the bear went over the mountain, oh grizzly, the bear went over the mountain, stop, to see what he could see and all that he could see, and all that he could see was the other side of the mountain, the other side of the mountain the other side of the mountain, was all that he could see Very good I wonder if we could all do it as well as that? Let's have a go We'll try Everybody stand up and be ready to be a bear You do my laces up for me , do my laces up for me. ready off we go The bear went over the mountain, the bear went over the mountain, the bear went over the mountain, to see what he could see, and stop, and all that he could see, and all that he could see was the other side of the mountain, the other side of the mountain the other side of the mountain, was all that he could see Do my laces, will you do my laces Er I think that was the sign to sit down not the sign to sit down and chatter OK Let's go When the circus comes to town I love to see the clown, racing round the big top with his trousers falling down, falling down his trousers and make me laugh and shout, I'll always feel so happy when the comes about ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, the funny circus clown Are you any good at being a clown? Me Oh, well done Gemma, good girl, she . Are you ready to be a clown? Yeah See if you can be as good as Mrs , she was doing well then for a moment, and Mrs makes a good clown, don't you dear? Yeah, so off we go then, be a clown and sing at the same time. When the circus comes to town I love to see the clown, racing round the big top with his trousers falling down, very, very,he makes me laugh and shout, I'll always feel so happy when the comes about ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, the funny circus clown sshh, ooh if every body was as good as Victoria that would be wonderful, there's a heap really, I should just sit somewhere else Bowen, Bowen, Bowen, move somewhere else will you cos they're in a bit of a state there, alright,, if you're in Mrs class Oh dear, no sshh, put your head down Put your head down, you're not listening if you're in Mrs class then you can stand up, if you can tip toe without faffing, go to your classroom , just Mrs class , tip toe, tip toe, tip toe, tip toe, tip toe, tip toe, tip toe, tip toe, oh very good Gavin, well done, look at that, his feet are going right, watch Mrs quick, best all day. Right Mrs children. You ready Mrs children, we're going to do strides,stride, stride, oh very good faster, stride, stride, stride, stride, stride, stride, stride, ready Mrs children? Tip toe, tip toe, tip toe, tip toe, tip toe, tip toe, tip toe, tip toe, tip toe, tip toe, tip toe, tip toe, tip toe, tip toe, tip toe Thank you and Mrs children ooh, what we gonna do with Mrs , can you skip? Any good Mrs ? And my children Oh we don't want them do we? No we don't want them We'll, what you gonna do, jump Good idea put two feet together like that jump two feet together jump two feet together, are you ready?oh they've all jumped into a line. Cos I don't know when, when did it happen? I don't know You can't remember I don't know, cos he was alright before wasn't he? before he went out to play Well actually Oh yeah oh dear. Think you'll do, you did want to get changed and for half an hour, cos we've got plenty of things to change into doesn't matter Don't worry It's because your to busy isn't it? Yeah Too busy working, my Christopher is so busy working or playing, haven't got time. Oh The noise yeah, well erm, yeah,too hard Yeah, try those for and er, I mean there, but there, they'll go on to a similar any way, but just keeping up the enjoyment side and er and apart from which you put I mean he's way ahead, I mean he's having to borrow these books from er Littlewoods club aren't you? But I mean they're, they're too easy in a way aren't they? Well, they're just nice aren't they? Yeah to enjoy I mean he's, he's not got the reading tend to give it a sort of late Yeah and they've all got nice endings yeah as well yeah for youngsters reading they can't cope with the usual Who've we got on the floor, come on Kevin Has he come in front of you? No, Kev, Kev When your brother comes if you don't want that Come on get up that wall over there, I'm telling your mum. I've not done anything have I? Erm, that wall down there right, he keeps going on it Michelle come on You tell his mum then He keeps like going it every time he Why have you taken your hair out for now? Took it out put it on the piano while I was busy playing . Like when you go round National Trust Homes don't you, they're all a You didn't get me any song books did you? No I was just thinking of two minutes ago like last week that's all all two minutes I thought, oh she's brought song books home, she's keen and enthusiastic with that, because it would of been a lot of effort on part I would, I, I just get them out . You were damn rude darling Yeah being in an attitude you've forgot to , no it's alright. But it's more convenient for you to go in that church if anybody else Oh it is Probably a bit of a strain Nice school? Yeah, you can volunteer if you like No that school also there's a it won't be Did it come off once didn't it? What have you done? Nothing I, erm, Barry and Do what Mary? I'm not sure if they're going away this weekend, I'm not sure when they're going Oh, well they're not going tomorrow Oh, must be Friday then, I knew they were going away for the week, weekend That's very nice too. The first time were saying this It's tricky to have to get here I know the evil look, I shall move in a minute Bite back Funny old tramp , the leaves fall of him without those, they get stalkier and stalkier as time goes on Yeah, yeah well I've got an ordinary A pot, it came from I've got an ordinary just keep peeling the bottom ones off it, just get missing My yucca's dying Oh dear That could well be the compost, poor leaves and things Maybe Well I think I've over watered it Best to let it I know I'm, I'm I don't water mine very often I wait till the, one of the leaves start to go a bit yellow and then Oh I don't like them personally Why not? somebody else wanted one I hated it Ah, there you are. similar to chopped it up and then and I've got twins Oh that's nice We've got one at work that looks like a tree together? it's about twelve feet, no, yeah about twelve feet tall. I've put it on the stairs you see so it's got like double height to go to, it's nearly filled that, the thing is, the at the bottom then about six foot gap and then at the top Yeah, the the branch goes to the top You won't do it like that, you'll have to sort of I suppose a handle of Well now, that'll do us instead of having, I mean you don't think at the time, but what she should of said was can I go away, come back for another interview another day, which means she, she's for the hour because all she could think of was this of course if she told me as soon as she'd done it Yeah I cou , I would of said well right tell them yeah, yeah Mm ask them for another go, of course she left it till she had the results and then told me so I'm writing now to the yeah Mm. so, cos she's stuck in working Even if she's not selling curtains for them and erm obviously she was Is there anybody we know that's any good at tuitioning? Oh, I come back from of private lessons but I just really can't get a grip of it. No, I meant just sort of somebody we know What would we have to do? The trouble is that like if you were dyslexic I could help you. I could help with maths You've got to know the syllabus though and you've got to know what, I don't know what Yeah you've got to know what you're doing It's not a case of helping because in the letters I know what, I know what I'm doing, I'm just, I'm just gone to, yeah I've got everything right, actually what I did and I couldn't give you, I haven't got a clue, trigonometry, well I couldn't tell you how to do it, I should That's why you need somebody you can ring up and say look, we did this yesterday what am I doing wrong today? Yeah. It goes out my head from one week to the next, I can't keep it, I know what I'm doing Keep it up at the time some sort of but again if, if somebody who knows about the G C S E actual course you know the G C S E, did you know about yeah I did that at school Someone must teach it somewhere. Erm, oh erm Who? Mike I was gonna say Mike has had a degree in that He but he might know What you'd have to do, you know, you tell him what you need to know, he'll be able to tell you how to do it. Oh I don't even wanna do it, I just need It's good book though isn't it? books here, yeah, I just, read them, I don't know if I can do it I but it, he needs to find out what he needs to teach you through the book so you know What you need to do is to find books are they a memory thing, that will, you know, click your memory, you know how some people have an a yeah well I know what you mean I can just remember though you know over the No I remember I just need something that reminds you of what you've done rather than, er Like my I just can't remember that twenty Well, you'll pass No you don't pass or fail you get given marks out Yeah, but I mean you only that was and I'd written down just sit down and listen, then read the question wrong write down the answer anything from What I could never do was but I could never do them being those things like well I can't do those tables all the and what not at all, I've never since a child remember Well you should of been learning those I've tried, I can't for the life of me remember them I can't remember I've tried Can you get up to five, fives? twenty five Yeah, but can you get up to that, like get all your other tables? No, I can't remember Right, you know the twos, threes and fours and fives tables? Twos no, no Oh dear I can't do them, I've learnt them sixes onwards I'll show you how dyslexic to do it with their hands I've got my sheet of paper You don't need One two Ooh somehow. We learnt them by chart. Yeah I did that at school we had to stay in most break times as a child cos I couldn't remember, and I, I know that my mum bought me a books so I used to sit for days and days, then my mum going over and then my nan going over and I couldn't remember if I wanted to The number you have put them together in different places and as usual I got the numbers that fell of the couldn't sort out, so those things, bit confusing so complicated when you start it out, but if you can't remember for the life of you then, it's quite Yeah I have to do it, you know, four, fours, five, fives erm providing I remember those middles then I can carry on, anything over I know you know, say seven, sevens I know are forty nine Mm so that eight sevens are fifty six and I carry on from there, but you can't do that you've got to have something like well I, I I can't do it, yeah I can't do it And are there things like that then, tables? Or is it more complicated? Yeah I was gonna say No, they're much more complicated, if you get an equation what's X Right and you've gotta find, you've gotta know what happens I'll take Wednesday Yeah and like they give you a secret number of what comes next Yeah I could never do those of, I never got one of those right. I would hate to do that orally I could only do that with I think Yeah You can write it down, by the time you've written it down and thought about it Should of had the answer yeah, I find that, that I've done it and I've written down the answer and then I can't think which number does it go to, and by the time I've got to number one they're on about six, so I might as well, I'm lost it completely, so I can't do that either and my project work, course work, goes towards certain percent of my marks and I can't think for the life of me why cos I don't want you get one percent on explaining how you do it so that's that, I can't rely on my course work for my marks so that's I can't do it, so that I've got to get full marks for the exam to pass, without the other two bits on it, I can't do that Why is the project work so You don't have to have English? No, cos I'm old Brilliant cos I pass mark, I've done the work and I've We've all stood teaching, I've got maths I haven't got English. This is, is this O level? A level English, Language and Literature I'm doing which isn't really but I might not pass, I haven't got the time and difficult when I'm working I can't if I start and it starts getting boring motivation is I can do an essay to prove I can It's all too much for me That can go next Yeah They're nice these two, really nice, I like this one exactly that's what I was thinking you could come on our weekend if you're not going if you're not going to cos they're going all weekend Did he tell you? He said, he was hoping to go and work there, so And what did he say, three months? For a year and that's all I need this is what he would liked to do Too frightened to ask him now No we don't about it oh because he told me Oh I think we will, well it's yeah after a year, yeah Unless he can get a work permit been before he said, yeah, and come back They don't always come back, they don't always use the the main thing being I know if going for at least luckily Anyway, unfortunately he was gonna go in I wasn't October which is a pity really cos that was when our weekend ooh quite keen Enjoyed your for a year? quite keen, well it isn't as if I'm gonna stay for a year, he's sort of thinking sort of you know going out there to work and I What does he do? See it driving, actually see me driving Yeah car park, drove in very slowly me driving this blooming car somebody saw me crash got the keys out, pressed the alarm, hello , I'm quite impressed, cos my car's a scrap heap And why is your car a scrap heap? cos I haven't got any money to do it up, nineteen sixty no really, you see I was hoping that I was going anyway to and that was gonna be it, I won't need it any more, but it turns out that I will so I'll, I've got a car Oh I patched together Right this is er both I have you know I've been going round and testing how many miles per galleon you can get out of it Per galleon? per galleon, yeah Well that's the trouble really, it's Good get depressed about it, I've been feeling very depressed about it Why? You still very depressed about it? Remind him Barry he's got something to ask Pat homework afterwards I don't know I You might have a bit of a whirl project I can't do it, I'll try Well ask him, he can only say You're not No I'm not . Are you comfortable there? It's surprising Oh I've got a lovely Lucky girl, what about your toes? the one I had, Ernie my instructor at work was this thick from bottom to top Well it would look such a and they were black obvious this thick this thick and I didn't change them all day cos I haven't got any money to buy any more so I have to wear them Why not, you should put one of hers on and say it was patterned No, it was horrific, it really did look I ask you and someone got up and like turned the Oh do you want bits and pieces back? Are we how embarrassing, what will that be? We've raised half that size I don't think I've ever had that amount in it cos really, we didn't really go into cost relations No did we really? I think we ought to anyway, I think it, it's, ought to be priority. Can you imagine them sending the whole lot? Mind you, we've got some quite, quite music and things and or just have a, you know, start us off because it begin with something, that is you know yeah plays the otherwise you're just complete cold it comes to you too late, and also Oh, shall we go home now? we go home now? Well I'd like to say stay a long time but actually I thought can we go? When can we go? Come visiting Nice to see you I'll miss you otherwise cos I don't see much of you. Right, what am I doing? I'm not sure which what am I doing? Chris what am I doing on Sunday? I don't know Oh dear. Do you know what I'm doing on Sunday? I don't know what you're doing actually I might be doing He doesn't like being washed Mine don't Really? Where's he gone? Half way to school by now Is that what he wants to do? Is that what he wants to do? No I don't know. Oh he's never declared what. Oh the second day he went to school he did I go on me own now Oh dear beautiful day isn't it, don't you think? Well they do Don't you, have you been doing your keep fit? No, I haven't Tut, tut, tut, tut I went to it at Christmas How long keep fitting can you get? Well he had a night off, it's not very often he has a night off, so Was it anything interesting? Oh no, we went to see er this wonderful, the one they're all Bits raving about in the paper Oh right, I don't know about Well, the one that er about people to think to them after they've been because it's so stressful. And the women who are running out you know It's the kind of film I've ever wanted like the plague, go on oh go on, oh I don't know. Have you the wrong way round I said the only is the people trying to get out at the end, to see who can get out first Oh dear it was suppose to be violent and, too violent and, full of rape and segregation Oh dear It wasn't of course, if it was I missed it Perhaps it's your age No I'm not into films. At all Beautiful makes me all cheerful don't it And for me don't you think? Er just the window, I've never be gotta be quick, do me housework on a Wednesday today Oh only this week, it's a bit baffling That's a funny voice. Yeah but at least it's keeping them occupied. Oh Oh Oh What's the matter now? Oh Hassle with my daughter at the minute Oh dear How old is she? She's nearly eighteen Oh, I wish she would. I've told her, I said, you know, go and live with your boyfriend Oh Does she see you that much? Yeah every week. Does he live near, live nearby then? Yeah, he lives near Yorkwood but he's just about to move, erm up Riverside, you know? Oh Yes Stop it. You never know what yesterday I says to her, cos she goes to Redditch to college Yeah I'll take me boots and a pair of shoes with heels, she didn't want to take them yesterday, I want to take them she said well I want me boots back for Thursday night cos I'm going out in them she's on a half day, I'll come with you yesterday pick them up if you come out so when it comes to this morning, you I'm not taking two pairs Oh dear I says you're taking them whether you like it or not, I said you promised, you think, you know it was really difficult you know, I don't ask her to do much Oh give this to Mrs cos I walked off with it yesterday I pinched that yesterday by accident Yes , I only found it this morning by accident, I thought oh god Oh, poor thing , he's so sweet your son they go in I think he's so sweet What do you want? He's, he's so cute and quiet and, Yes I think he's lovely. Right it's me and you know, where are we going on our travels, here we go want a lift? Oh are we having fun then Don and Mary? Mummy have that one, and that one over . No this one here, else my hands will drop off. Oh dear I hope you'll enjoy your gardening Is that what you're gonna do garden? I don't do do sun beds I'm very I'd like to go and do mine, but we're going to do mums and toddlers, oh, cos I was gonna do it yesterday And I was gonna do it yesterday but it tipped with rain , oh well happy gardening, bye, oh no you don't oh dear what she doing to you eh? Hello Timmy, how are you? All that lovely blonde hair, can I have it? And look at the way he's slept on it oh I'm not running Tim, I can't cope this morning, I know sometimes we do, but I need to walk to the gate like a lady Don't everywhere I go oh you can have a run if you want to No No I hope it stays like this, is it gonna stay like this all day or is it only the morning? thanks cheer you up I don't want to be stuck inside at mothers and toddlers all morning if it No come home and it rained, perhaps we could all this afternoon if it was gonna rain Yeah, it's usually the opposite way round Yeah, I don't suppose everybody will be too pleased about that Aaagh Come on Tim don't you want to walk on the edge? Ooh don't fall off. I know it's lovely isn't it, I aren't the blossoms it is, yeah the blossom tree there Like them when they're on a bet it snows trees at the front of our pink and are really lovely for a bit and then you suddenly get a wind That's right, they're all then Mind you they must go somewhere I don't know where, cos we never pick them up I know that no, you've got a point really No I'm sure it's good for the ground It's like all these people that go out really cleaning the leaves up Oh I know, well we have to do some because if we didn't we'd be under thick feet yeah but we only just do it yeah, but I can't see the point only we never do we go I don't see where they go to up probably to these oaks here Yeah we're alright till the oaks drop into the garden oh yeah and then we've had it cos we're well literally up here really well, yeah , well we haven't got that, we've only got the trees that are in the garden yeah which we've got a couple of big ones but we haven't got like extra ones outside the garden dropping leaves. I mean we've got two others, two great big brown ones, they have pink flowers on and then they drop like er, what do they drop like things Where's the hole gone? I think they've filled it in yeah and they did it quite smooth, pity they didn't do this one as well while they were I didn't quite understand it Perhaps they get better as yeah I didn't quite understand the point of that did you? Dig a hole and right then and fill it in see you tomorrow bye bye, bye Timmy Let's open the garage No yes, whoops I'll just go inside and get the keys Tim, it's still in the house I think it wants a wash I think you're right, it does, it's filthy this car. wash it with a sponge Mm. mm, use it with water with other water with the bucket Yes, it's called and wash it we could manage to do that one day, if it's fine this afternoon we might do something like that this afternoon, but if it rains it won't be any use, I also want to do the garden this afternoon What? I don't think we should go swimming do you, because of your cold. Mm. I don't think we should have a swimming day. Er, do it, go, go slowly now. No, I wait for you to put it down oh dear, dear, dear, you alright now? mm I'm sorry mummy had to rush us so much this morning it's just when we're in a rush we have to get to school on time you see, it's a bit rotten when you're only three isn't it? Oh You know I follow up Baptism visits Yeah er for special services I invite everybody, and I've got about fifty on my books which I think I can afford to go around when I get there, can you do a couple, they live near you mm, mm Teddington and mm, mm if they're not in just slip it through the door you can't keep I mean if you can't, if they're not in, but if Don't bother you want to keep going back, but I mean I won't I'll just go once It's just that I've just got too many at, it can only be done a week before yeah and I've got so many to do Who are they? anybody I know? Ones for twenty, anybody from mums and toddlers connection I don't know, shame it's Hello you're quick. Stop it, stop fooling when it goes Go stop, go go go In fact can rewind it, in fact it has to be switched off and then rewound and then go in a Oh see, service half way through oh that Oh yeah See table today Good Nice sort of man who understood that people don't know anything about it Yeah We went out to lunch to er Tesco's we got to pick Christopher up from school and we went just for lunch time, that was quite nice cos Andy was having a lunch anyway at work and er You know, you know just outside the door it might be in there. Lost, lost the hat I'll do it oh it'll turn up I can't find it anywhere. You can't find it anywhere, you think it's probably in that, that, oh look, these have done well haven't they? These things have done well at toddlers these Alex just knows how to get, how to get round everyone, to get round his mother anyway If his, his mum wasn't there he'd just hold on to her and that would be it wouldn't it? But I mean he can't do that when she's there He goes to a nursery somewhere though doesn't he? I've watch a play with she doesn't talk to him she talks about him to everybody else, either way she amazing, bless his cotton socks Very, very practical that's what I find of her, she'll say oh and I'm hoping to oh that's really lovely Why do you bother paying and we were just mucking about you know, like I know something Remember what size the lady said your feet were? She said size ten didn't she? Which was a jump from eight and a half Mum is Christopher ten feet? No not ten The size size ten , you're like you're size thirteen you're shoe was size twelve and a half but we have to buy thirteens for trainers And then you go back to one or something Mm at one stage It's isn't it? Mm is Larry coming here tonight or are you going there? Here Are we gonna Is that alright? Here? I rang John see if he could go same time or I could go there Well done Finished Do you want that bacon chop Tim cos I don't think you'll find it you won't eat it all? I want a little bit more of Ask daddy to you start that then Can I have a bit mum? Chop that up and you'll get a bit more to go with it. Can I have a little bit more of that crisp in it? That Do you like crisps do you? But they haven't I'm having crisps I don't mind these little bits mum Right but mummy I don't really What? Did put it That's it as well Is that OK? That little bit there How do you like Yeah, mister crusty's really nice in it? don't you daddy? I thought it was quite good, somebody and bath, and bath the children and got their tea ready, what, pretty efficient really as mothers go and I did the garden the garden, was it a nice day? It was yeah, Jamie's mummy said it was going to rain this afternoon didn't she? I it's daddy actually. A big tummy And, and Yes They let off a little despondent these mums and toddlers thinking oh the best bit of the day, and they forget, it wasn't. And it was a very nice mums and toddlers, hardly anybody turned up too Why was that? I don't know, last week we were absolutely packed out and then this week Are they all ill this week? Well either ill or else they've gone you know cos it's a nice day out don't know. All I know is There are quite a few chickenpox cases. Why What did you do Tim at mothers and toddlers? I played Yeah, what did you play with? Anything special? We had a Try it again Tim daddy didn't quite understand, say it again. The prince and the No, no, he's talking about a story Oh A story story looking in the windows Looking in the windows? Mm, mm What? and he be'd a fire engine Aah Is this er Christopher's book? Yep The one about mummy It's mine Yeah mummy, mummy the window cleaner went to rescue some people along came the fireman Mums and toddlers thought it was wonderful, we only had half a dozen you see in there cos it was low numbers all round so we had low numbers in the as well, had a little do with a little boy called Shane, he decided he wanted to come into the story with a, in his blue car, I explained that on the day of the choose he could either come in and have a story or he was to play with the blue car outside, well he had a fit, he's rattling the door, anyway, I didn't realize there was this childminder that he had with him not er his mum, cos she came and had her sort of say and things we finished the story and we got onto the rhymes I presume and a little body sidled in through the win through the door and he sort of sat there looking pathetic you know, I said would you like to come and sit on my knee? No he said, and I went over and I picked him up anyway, and sat him on, I sat him on my knee and I said we'll just do some rhymes and I could feel him sort of going mm, mm, mm, like they do all pathetic and whiny, anyway Phyllis arrived and afterwards it was, by then he had calmed down and he was fine and I said wanna read the story now cos he missed it of course when he decided he couldn't do without his car , so I said next week perhaps come without your car, I think I'd won him over by the end but, it was a bit hairy. Mum Especially as the childminder hadn't seen what had happened, so she didn't realize why he was carrying on like he was, made the whole thing a little bit tricky, can I give you this? It hasn't Rosemary came up and said she really enjoyed last night, so, that's something. I'm not sure it was that brilliant but ha, ha, and it's to change that law Yeah, be direct Mum to the point did dad like the ginger bread man? did he mum? Yeah he did You like the ginger bread man? Tim ate an eye before, oh yeah all the people last night had them But what I did before yes, one or two did ginger bread men or what? I want just a tiny one that little boy and the girl I want No you, no, did they have a Did you have a when the girls had little bits at the bottom, little round bits I had Can I have mine? have them today, I had the head of the big one Did you? ginger bread man er Can I have my for my biscuit today and for myself I had a dinosaur, Miss gave me a whole dinosaur and I had the head arms, erm, the head of the big one Yeah where my biscuit when I come home To you, eat lots of biscuits And we had a biscuit It sounds like a lot, but it wasn't really Did you eat all the sandwiches, all the cake and all the banana? I think Christopher's well again don't you? He must be Mum can I have one of those? No I felt really hot mum this morning Did you? cos my throat hurts Your throat hurts as well what's all this throat hurting? sore throat I've got a sore throat too. I had one When we go to the dentist I had, I had the video on when, when dad did Probably not very erm I had enough Probably won't matter cos stand clear. Presumably it would, I mean, it's Can I have the pudding please? Yes, I'll go and get it, have you finished there Christopher? You didn't do I'm going to stir it out have I do stir it out stirring it out? Dad I'm meant to be doing that, is that the top one? Get, those yet, OK? Careful Christopher Here you are Christopher just be careful What's he done? You can't do any What? You can't do that. Mum Hello Christopher What's in there, there look at the bottom Dad look, look at the bottom you can't see look dad the bottom Oops they're smart aren't they? I don't know the bottom What? You wouldn't be having ice cream Every I can't have a, I can't have one of those lollies Yeah Aren't you having a bun of mummy's now? See we've run out of buns cos you had one yesterday and that makes one er, there was two there Not got buns now chocolate pies No, you've got to do I'll just do erm but you, you have, when did I do that? Christopher you come up here and you know talk to me That's yours Thank you He's taking them over and I Daddy Daddy Daddy Daddy Daddy Yep Is there another one? one more Daddy mum dad And he wants this one did he? Can we have it Christopher? Oh dear, careful. again Dad what's left over is my favourite dad, have all of this. My staff couldn't cope with the day Oh dear Marg went home this morning. Huh, she went home yesterday didn't she? No, day before. Cake left over She's not coping is she really? No Is she just ill now or is she just just being herself but life generally is helping Well that's nice What's going to be left over? What do you mean what's going to be left over? Mum Left over, over there it tastes better with ice cream, chocolate ice cream the ice cream , no dear I thought not, especially the do double exercise then. Mm, I did double exercises in the garden today. Double exercises what double exercise I moved the bush, can you see it? Where? Remember your dad putting in a big huge something or other which we never did find out what it was, and it's an ugly little specimen I could see there's a gap there now so Oh no, no, you're thinking of something else, that was that other pathetic little shrub Oh that never did anything, that we inherited, and when we moved all that stuff that was on there, all that junk, erm, when we first moved, I thought it might flourish when it sorted it, but it's kind of spindly so, that's gone, no, no, another bush, over this side Can't see it same time as you planted the erm, erm, what do you call it with the butterflies all go on? Buddleia, same time as you planted the Buddleia, you planted this other thing, we don't quite know what it is against the fence, and it kept sticking out when we played ball, do you remember? It was too big for the border, I really wanted little flowers and prettiness down there really instead Yeah of a little bush yeah and I moved it It's a record Record, what is it? and I moved it over to that corner there, where nothing else grows I see. see what it can do in that corner. Oh dear It probably will die a death, you could hardly ever Mummy Yeah see what happens Mummy, mummy Yes Timothy look is that digging up, mm to chop that down right down the other side oh right the forsythia has actually flowered this year Has it? Remember it used to be three inches long and now a foot long, with a flapper You, you haven't see any on this telly, you'll see the horse one. I never the horse one Haven't seen Rosie and Jim, haven't watched any telly this weekend. oh good Haven't watched Rosie and Jim, Love Piglet I wanted to watch Story time eggs, There's one about sorry erm something about delivering a letter wasn't it? Oh yeah That's Play Bus That's Play Bus is it? No, it isn't, it's watch isn't it? Oh is it Play Bus? Yeah, I don't know I don't think it's Play Bus What for? There's a letter in Worcestershire as well Mm Mm There's a local programme there Dad, you might of seen er It was done by the Play Bus man, that's what you're thinking Er, egg one , you haven't seen the egg thing about. Mm, no, well there's lots of things I haven't seen, I haven't had time this week There daddy and that's the lot. Right I'm not allowed to watch it any more What Christopher, hasn't watched anything I haven't watched anything today Should think Tim's watched more than his fair share really today, cos erm, he's so ill this afternoon, whatever it was, but that Christopher was Did he help you with the gardening? No, he came out for about ten minutes then he said I'm going back in the house mummy, just then flopped on the chair I found a button Have you? Look, there's the button Don't you think you ought to eat the pie dish as well? Ben was that stiff teeth Stiff teeth Ben was, but erm Greg and Matth Mum it was a very strong teeth, then mum when I bit into chocolate mum the chocolate stayed on there when I eat Mm but he's have gone mm look mum, look at his back, look it hasn't got very much on has it? No did you enjoy that dear? Well it's actually bomped me, you can get it I've no idea Well Sputknit's on telly if you haven't watched any telly. Christopher's got homework to do. Well I've finished some of it, I Mum, dad Yes, yes Yes, yes dad yes, yes, yes, yes, yes you haven't eat every Rosie and Jim or you, you haven't seen Rosie and Jim or Sp or video or think about I haven't, no or Play Bus I haven't got time to see Or You haven't seen think about And you haven't seen and the story time, now I don't And I think about admiral was about erm you don't bones, bones was the last one I saw. You haven't seen the one which he takes over good and then there is another thing about on top of it think about giant eggs, eggs no wait a minute I, bet , see if I can balance that on my head no wait a minute Tim, keep going what? As of were all a what do you want today? What's a A day we go in the mountain A day we went up a mountain What, what I will changed that, and you'll have that Awaiting in amazement Is it? You'll have to watch that that's it cos you haven't seen that No I haven't What about a log, we're as quiet as a log? Quiet as a log, no, You come wash up You can't wash up, it's my turn to wash up isn't it? I'll wash up dear while you watch the telly cos I've I No Alright dear I don't mind See you're not watching their new series, when, anyway, aren't the new However, this This one here, what you supposed to be doing? Yes if you can just do that front page which is the easiest one and the second page. What, I've already done the second page Have you? Oh well done then that's have a look, where is it? In that case you've probably finished then. Can I finished my book? No you haven't, come on What finish the whole book? I won't finish the whole book Not the whole book. I did erm, Christopher's cost thirty pounds and eight ninety nine do you want to do this and then, have you done this yet? No, look at page thirteen Dad Yes you've got to find out what's the Dad Yes Tim Where's Where's number one a different cover there's the same cover that's not the same cover and you're supposed to put your name where's number one? on that don't you? it's meant to be a book The last I saw was when he went to Stratford, and did he watch the puppets? Yes when We'll have to watch it together, is, is the horse one That's right the horse one was Oh When you whacked the horse yes all comes on next you keep shaking the goes on Yeah and then it starts off, and then it goes on again without winding it back on. Amazing I thought that was you Tim No Dad if we got the, the whole video of Rosie and Jim or Rosie and Jim didn't Well we've got one Rosie and Jim video didn't we? Ah and really I didn't need to do that I ought to But that was Christopher's wasn't it? I don't know Cos Christopher had his on his head, do you remember? Well I've done thing here Can I have my ring back? I don't know where the ring is Can I have my ring back and then Christopher can go and look for the ring that he had on his head, he had a wooden one on his head, do you remember? Would you like to go and look for the ring dear? And while you're upstairs, just have a look on the floor highly disgusted Who would have children? What were you doing down? Quite fond on them didn't we? But not at dinner times . But not when they're eating, here why did I bother giving you a bath? Just wash, wash it off and dirty it the bath Mum, some more water Have you found a cloth, Christopher did you find a cloth? Aaagh Stop Ah, daddy what on earth did you let him do that for dear? Cos you thought he could do it, you were wrong. He can't. I think when it comes to pouring Tim, until you're four Or five or five, or six, or seven somebody will do it I've got some water Timothy too much Yeah, before Tim tipped it all over the mat and all over the not the carpet, what do you call it? Table cloth You might as well have been a carpet I'm going to probably start washing up, Yeah. will you pass the things through? and he, and he does and, and he does over that's big and that's small I'll take your er cassette player No, and that's, dad, it's So what else have I forgotten to put on then? This list I don't know What tomorrow we'll leave for at four o'clock is that right? Yeah Have you got any money? Money, for the dentist? Well I've got no money, you'll have to pay the dentist I can write a cheque Alright Erm Have you got any cash? Well I've got a bit, but it will be nice, won't it really? It will be nice. to take care of Tim or to say to them that the I don't know how these things work erm, sorry what mummy and daddy yeah, that'll be nice, cos we don't really want it do we? It's only Do have this business chap staying all of Sunday or what do you think? I don't know, I mean we can either take him up to right or if he wants to cos it won't be a long evening service will it? No whoever, which one of us is there decides to, of course if he decides this after the service you can't stay there very long. Right, so it doesn't matter So, whoever takes me, you know that's probably just as well, so it's on, a couple of hours onto the service really isn't it? Say you'll be back by half nine ten By then we'll know where to go True, we hope I think it's on the A ten, erm Have you looked it up then? I, no, Mm, quite exciting isn't it, I mean, well are you excited by it dear, you seem like you're excited? It is certainly different and we can just poddle him along to everything we do, just, I mean it's, you know we can do things in the garden, we can do things round the house we don't have to lay out anything special do we? Well I expect just because we're special type of thing, it'll be OK cos he will be able to enjoy just being with us or not, as the case may be family, yeah and the children I expect that'll be interesting for them, cos I quite imagine he would of meet many English children knocking around really, cos the situation is he went Yeah as many, and they're lots of fun, but, you know and no doubt aunty will get fascinated by yeah and they get there's too much Yeah but, it was a pity he was able to speak on the telephone, so Well people keep telling me about them and I don't seem to write them down, I probably so I Oh yeah When Mm, sorted out for April the fifteenth this erm Information Technology Course Can I keep that writing Two days Joe, that's handy I can The er David and socks, he'll be wearing today and the balls in the garden I think we'll put some of that away, do you? No. going to have Weetabix as well? Yeah. she'll never manage all that. in that case you can't cope all all that. So we'll put some of that in there. There you are. Sir. Woops. Can I have some more milk? Can I have some Where's your bib Tim? I'm too tired breakfast Sit on bottom, please. Don't When I'm drinking no. my milk. Pardon? When I'm drinking There isn't any in there yet. We're waiting for you to sit down properly then we'll start giving you things like milk. Cos it starts going all over the place. Come on. Timothy. There. Ooh. I drink that I shall have your guts for garters one day. Oh, good job I don't wear glasses isn't it? going to be recorded everything. Funny expression isn't it, that one? Please may I have some tea? Certainly my dear. Thank you. So what's on the agenda for you today then dear? Work work and more work. Oh. suppose Julia will be there. boss Suppose the what, sorry? Don't suppose Julia will be there. My boss is getting to the position where he wants lots of information from me. Last night, before I came home he dragged me into his office to work out how much money we spend Pontypool delivering parts to Solihull. And do you know? No, so you had to sit and work it out. We had, we had to work it out. Yeah. I sat with a price list. He sat with a calculator. He only did that simply because he gets asked questions. Mm. Thing I don't approve of is the fact that when I ask questions You don't get that he needs and he needs to speak to his boss, he doesn't get answers from his boss. But when his boss chases him for, you know information or whatever you know . I only got four sultanas information. today. It's stopped has it? Four sultanas today. Oh dear. There's lots of Alpen in here but not very many sultanas. Really? They're probably all at the bottom. What? They are probably all at the bottom. You say they're always at the top. Actually they do tend to be, don't they? They tend to be at the top and then there's sort of little bits and pieces go at the bottom. So perhaps you'd had it. Perhaps you won't get any sultanas now. Why? Till the end of the Alpen. I don't know. I'm just guessing. I'm afraid the toast wasn't very square shaped. Somebody must have sat on the loaf or something. Probably squashed it on the way home from Tesco's. you squash it. Then Well it did get squashed. Did you see? What's happened to the loaf? Somebody must have sat on it, or pulled it or if you do that I one. No. You'll find your sandwiches at work will be a little, your sandwiches at school will be a little bit squashed. Well he works. He works at school. What? Daddy told, said when your sandwiches are at work. You know what I meant. He meant at school. But then he said you do work at school so it's alright. Course he does. Works very hard. Oh, it's a big fat one, this. Be careful stop. You're having all of it . And I had to spend a whole hour in a meeting not not an hour, two and a half hours in a I still haven't got very little much meeting with the French yesterday with To listen to the French to say non. You know the French say non. Except they didn't quite say non, one word. And I haven't. They said it in a round about way for two and a half hours. Look at mine. Look at mine . We knew they were coming to say non. That's why the meeting had been arranged. They didn't need to take two and a half hours over it. Look at mine. I didn't have any. And look at mine, I've finished. I've finished. And me. I need some more milk . Would everybody stop shrieking. Hands off the jug please. Off the jug . What's the problem? I want a drink please. There's some for you. Ugh. And some for you. And nobody ask for any more till toast. That's a lot. Ooh, a cat. Nobody Go away pussy. Why? Go away. Go away . It's amazing how a huge c a huge cat like that can get underneath I've just planted my bulbs I saw, I saw a cat. I saw a cat on the step. I think all the Mum. Mummy. Mummy . big green pellet things Mum why did you say go away? Please don't shout at me. I don't like it. Why did you say go away when he wasn't on the flowers? Well, I don't mind him walking across that bit but But why did he shout it? Who, Tim? Mm. That might be why he's gone away. Well that's alright. We don't mind that. What did you try to say? Mum. Yes. I saw a black cat on the step. Did you? But he went away. Oh. Cos I shouted go away then he went. . Right. We're not, not very friendly towards cats here are we? I don't mind other people's cats in their homes like erm there's a cat at Holly Cottage isn't there? Yeah, a black one. Is that a nice cat, do you stroke it? Yeah. Yes it is a nice one mummy. Remember it do you? Yeah. It's the ones that come along and just have to do things in the middle of the garden. There's a few little flaps mummy That's right. in Holly Cottage where it can go through and it's a great Oh that's nice. it's very big and they're only small flaps. Mm. Cat flap. Well you can see how cats can squeeze underneath fences Mm. so I'm sure they can squeeze through cat flaps if they need to. Is he meant to have half of that? Yes. I don't want half. It is raining. Mummy, it is raining. I don't want ha I don't want half. I want a whole. And what's Tim going to eat? Nothing. Could you make another one for him? Make another one for him dad. Make another one for him. No. doesn't it? What's that? The amount of toast consumed. off colour day wasn't it? Whenever it was. How's your throat today? Much better today. I think it suddenly improved. I would advise Tarazets if you want to try and get rid of it. It's definitely worked for me. Suck Tarazets if . Think I need, think I need some Tarazets. My throat's hurting. Your throat's hurting is it? Oh. Poor Tim. Mine is as well mum. . So's mine. Ha! Think all of us want one.. Mine's on it's way out. Mum's on it's mum's is on it's way out. If I have it o one first, then you, then him then I'm not bothering today cos I think mine is nearly better now. It can get better by itself now. One for me, then Christopher, then dad. Then we Well it went Tim no it went mummy No. Mummy. Mummy's not having any . But she always, she used to have one. So she had it first, you had it second erm daddy had it third and I had it fourth. You've got on your jumper. Mm. I've just seen that too Tim. Oh. How did that happen? I don't know. Perhaps your arm Think you your jumper. I didn't. Where is my marmalade? Marmite. If you said please may I have the marmalade it might arrive. Why has it got a mar and E on the end? Cos otherwise it would be marmit. See, marmit I it's marmite. Mum Where's the marmalade? Right in front of you. Where? Oh! Here's the marmalade. He didn't ask for it. He just said where is it. Just say, please can I have it. say please may I have the marmalade. Peas. He didn't. I said peas. Not please, I didn't say please. Oh. Well say thank you when you get it. Thank you. I said That's it. peas instead of please. I said peas Timothy, how did you manage to get on your knees again? What? Easy. Easy-peasy. He must have got a spring. Automatic spring in there. What? What? You're supposed to sit down to eat Tim. Remember? I've finished. There. Right. Thank you. Is he sitting down mum? No he's kneeling up. my milk. Yes he is kneeling up. So, this afternoon Mhm. When we go to the dentist. we gather at the dentist at four o'clock. Shall we gather at the dentist . You'll get there just before. Erm will you be able to take some money? A chequebook, I'll take. Right. Cos it costs so much now. I think they put the rate up didn't they? Recently. Did they? Yeah. So how much is it now, for children? It's Ruth's birthday today. It is Ruth's birthday today. That's very clever. How do you know that? Mm mm. He just remembers these things. Mm. It's not your birthday No, Ruth's. No not mine. Ruth's Your cousin. Cousin Ruth. Remember Ruth? Went to stay with them and Ruth came to read to you in the morning. Oh no, Ann came to read to you in the mornings didn't she? Ruth wasn't with us in the mornings. Ruth. Yes, you remember. Ruth and Ann and Uncle David and Auntie Gwen. Do you remember them? We went to stay in their house one weekend. And we went with them to the zoo. Do you remember? Oh yes. Remember going to the zoo? We went on a little steam train as well. And you and me nearly nearly didn't get on the train. Do you remember the train? They were all waiting for us. We had to run quick. Why? I can't remember what we were doing. Probably weeing up a tree somewhere. because, think the train nearly went. Yes. Everybody else was sitting on the train. We had to run quick to get on it. Because, because the little train nearly without us. Mm. Did nearly go without us. If it went without you We'd have to catch the next one. Mm. That's right. Cos there's only one train. It was going round and round wasn't it? Mm. We'd have to wait for the next one then. Mm. So are we all being examined today? We are, this is a family trip. Right. Because said, are the children coming for a check up too. Well, I have some Marmite. Cos otherwise it's silly if we go Yeah. and then they go and they never know where they are. Can I have some Marmite on this? Are the children supposed to go every six months? Something like that. Well that's okay. So it ought to work out twelve and a six month Mum. so that we go every twelve and they go every six. Can you chop it? But somehow or another it got out of sequence. Can you chop No chop it. Oh chop, sorry. I'm not listening to you am I? Presuming that our dentist still wants to do National Health Service work. Cos most of them are threatening to give up aren't they? Are they? No. Yeah. And do what? Private? Mum mum . Private work. Cos they say they don't get paid enough money for the N H S. So people like, except the children you mean? No. For everybody. The vast majority of dentists have threatened to Well how come when we're paying so much? Do you want Well because you'd have to pay even more if you did it privately. My throat hurts. Oh I see. Is it dear? Do you want two ? Yeah. Mm mm mm. A please. A messy . A ? What's a ? I can't wear my new shoes this morning can I? Why not? Oh no you can't cos it's school. You can wear them when you get home. Mm. And walk to the dentist. What? And walk to the dentist in your new shoes. And at the dentists. Yeah. Well you don't take your shoes off at the dentists. He doesn't look at your feet, he only looks at your teeth. He'll get a shock when he sees your teeth won't he? Four of them have changed since you last came. Is it today? Is it today? Mhm. Oh. It feels funny when she you do it. Mum. Yeah. Is it are you going to be checked? Yes. Mummy and daddy and you two. We're all going, family trip. And me? Mhm. At the bed time? Yes and you. At bed time? No, four o'clock it is. I'm gonna look at my teeth. It's a little, it's a little ploy to get daddy home early. What? gonna look at my teeth? Daddy'll have to come home a bit early to have it done. gonna look at my teeth? Yes. Will you let him? Yes? Will you sit on the chair, open your mouth, let him stick a mirror in? Aah. Stick a mirror in? We don't I seem to remember last time you got two stickers didn't you, cos you had super clean teeth? I bet you only get one sticker this time. Why? You think I'm gonna get two? You'd have to clean them out very did that. I think you were a bit lucky to get two stickers. I would have thought one sticker would be sufficient really. It was when Mrs was there then wasn't it mummy? Was it? Mrs was there. Mm probably. Mm. It was. Oh you went to school didn't you? There was a dentist came to school, remember? And we had a letter home saying something about you need to go to the local dentist or something for treatment. Poss no possible treatment. And I think it was cos of the wobbly front tooth when you bent it back when you fell over my foot. But next time it won't So we didn't bother going because we were regularly going anyway. What? You didn't bother going cos we No. were regularly going? Yeah. Well I didn't see much point What does regularly mean? Regularly means that we go in anyway t every six months you go and have your teeth checked to see if they're okay. Every six So just when some some bod comes to school and opens your mouth and says ooh, this looks interesting, there's not much point because our own dentist knows about it. So you don't really need to be checked at school? No I wouldn't have thought so. But some people don't go to the dentist regularly, so they need to be checked at school. People like Michelle probably never set eyes on a dentist normally. It's probably a good thing for a dentist to have a look at her teeth and see what needs doing. Because her mum and her mum doesn't ? Mm probably. They've never been? Probably not. Why? We have. I'm just guessing. We've been, yeah. But not everybody does. Well not everybody likes dentists and they think that something Well well we awful's gonna happen to them. They're wrong What? cos it's nice isn't it, at the dentist? Think everyone goes. To the dentist. Well everybody ought to go to the dentist if they want to keep their teeth nice and healthy. But not everybody does cos some people get frightened of dentists and they think ooh I don't want to go there. But that's silly cos there's nothing to be frightened of is there? It's nice at the dentist. No no-one can get frightened. Mm. But they won't get stickers will they? True. They won't get stickers dad. If they go got toothbrushes to give you but the Mm. can't see that can you? No, you can't see that. That's why you need a mirror. Could I have one of those ? Can you have what? Have one of those things. What things? Those pink things that af after we had our lunch. Pink things? Yeah. Er those things in that bottle. Oh I know what you mean. For your throat? Yeah. Yes you can do, just wipe your hands first. Why? Well he's got his sore throat here. I've got a sore throat too. Have you? Right. And you. You can have one each. Where are they? In the kitchen. Would I spot it? I don't know. Think I'm going to get them because I I No Tim. Mummy has to get those. It says on the bottle, only mummies touch medicines. Well no, not quite but It doesn't really. One for you. One for Tim. One for you, daddy, would you like one of these . One yeah cos he's allowed . He's allowed to have one. Yeah. I I I've got one. Have you? Yes. I've got one. Look. Yes. Already had these before daddy. And me. I I I I had another piece. Right. Are we gonna have a song? I shouldn't be here. I'm late. It's got to be very very quick. Very very quick. And I want to watch the telly. Well hold on cos Right. Can we have a prayer? Can I have be bold? Right. Yes. After the prayer. just gonna have a prayer, right. . Heavenly father Be bold. we pray that you'll be with us today. That you'll help us as we go out. Go to nursery and school and work and do different things. Pray that we'll listen to you. To help us to be friends to those we meet. That you'll look after and keep us safe until the end of the day. Amen. Amen. Be bold Be bold be strong be strong for the lord your god is with you be bold be bold be strong be strong for the lord your god is with you. I am not afraid no no no. I am not dismayed, not me, for I'm walking in the of victory. Cos I'm a walking of victory. For the lord your god is with you. Bom bom Now your turn. Jesus' love is very wonderful. Where's dad? Dad's in the kitchen. Bubye funny. No Bubye bubye bubye You sound like a monkey . Bubye. Bubye. No-one's listening to a word you're saying Tim. What's your problem? Jesus . You want to sing Jesus ? Yeah, with dad. Dad's gone I'm afraid cos he's gonna be late. Jesus' love is very wonderful, Jesus' love is very wonderful Jesus' love is very wonderful, very wonderful love very wonderful, Jesus' love is very wonderful Jesus' love is very wonderful, oh wonderful love Christopher. What? Your clothes are upstairs on the chair. Mum . go and get them on please. In we go. In we go. Shall we close the door? You knit you knit Tim's jumpers don't you Dot? Er sometimes, it depends. Granny and Ah they're not all granny's. Some are granny's and some Oh I was just oh what a lovely jumper. Did you knit it? And she said no, grandma knitted it. Do you remember the teddybear one? The trouble is he's wearing it out for Christopher so you won't see the new one. you mean you didn't knit these? I didn't knit this one, but I did knit the teddy one. Remember the teddy one? No. Cos Tim said you knitted one. He wears the, mm I said did nanny and he said no mummy knitted it. No I do, I do knit. Not often, but I knit. Trouble is granny does it and she's got loads of time. She sits there and does them twice as fast as me. I th what I like doing, I like the pictures. Yes. So I don't mind doing the pictures. If she'd do the sleeves and the back for me I'd be very grateful . Yeah. Whereas she can't stand doing the pictures cos it takes her too much time. It's like doing tapestry. Yeah. I like the picture bits And then there's all this, yeah green or something at the back. So when I did one I sort of Ooh rationed myself. A few rows of green good gracious! and then I could do a flower. It's just ridiculous Good for the good for the soul. Let's open you up. Why is it you can't do this, eh? Cos you're on strike when we come to nursery and you like to feel that way. Look at this owl sitting looking at us. Sweet isn't it? Little bit battered now. It's got a lot of bits missing. Oh well, well he still looks very sweet to those of us who are not familiar with him. Oh yeah. Well no but She keeps apologizing for him. perfectly normal I think she thinks he ought to be totally angelic, you know They're not though are they, really? Oh yeah. No we insist upon being normal children . Oh. Yeah, what are we gonna do today then? This side or the other side? Do you want to go and see what's going on in the sitting room? Or are you going to come in here? Ooh, hello Bubble. Where are you gonna be? Do you want to go this way and have a look? Shall I give you a kiss and say goodbye? Oh no you don't like kisses at the moment do you? Oh dear, don't you like sloppy kisses? Sometimes he does, just before he goes to bed but you have to put them in just the right place. Morning. Morning. Morning ladies. Are you going? They're all in here, the other people. No? What are you gonna do? Let me down, let me down mum, let me down. Ooh gosh it's cold this morning. Alright Tim? Sort of. We don't quite know what to do with ourselves at the moment. Morning Rebecca, morning Elizabeth. Morning. Isn't it cold this morning? I'm warm. Oh I'm warm too. Or are you sickening for something? I think in fact it was too warm but I still thought it was cold. And it was so warm today. The flu. Definitely the flu. Mm my husband's in bed. Oh well there we are. So I probably am coming down with . Oh dear. Mm what are we doing dearest? That's a nice jumper Tim. What have you got on your buttons? Oh, pussycats. Could be Bubble pussycats couldn't it Tim? Morning Cath. I'm coming, I'm coming. Morning. Everybody's arriving aren't they Tim? Shall we go in there and help find a jigsaw or something? Cos you like doing that don't you? seems to be our general general start in life. Ooh this looks nice. Oh that's a nice one isn't it? Chains and . Right, I'll see you later then. Can I blow you one today or not? Bye. Can't kiss him . My other one's kissy so it's alright. He's huggy this one, not kissy. He doesn't like wet sloppy kisses, he thinks it's silly. do any sloppy kisses? No only one. sloppy kisses and this this little girl we had sloppy kisses ooh that's mucky, that's just for babies. So we don't have any sloppy kisses can't sleep at night. You haven't lent it to him have you? Oh. Then in the end she decides it's alright. Oh. She can bear I wouldn't like to say what they're doing. Look at that one, he's on his back. Is one of them a drake then? Must be. Yes. Which one's which? Well he's got a little . That one's on the other's back. Oh I say! Oh they might they're coming for a swim now look. Ooh just gonna have a drink. Are you going to pop in there, go for a swim? Come on. In there. In. Going to have a swim? Oh yes, there we go. Yes, he's doing what you told him. Nice isn't it? Come on. Let's get in the car then. Lovely aren't they? Come on then. No. Think these ones gonna go in. Well I think we'd better leave them just to do what they like, cos I expect Gwen wants to get on with her dinner now. Yeah, and I want to go and get We need to go home. I'm going to get some lunch at grandma's. Going to grandma's house for our lunch now. Have you had a nice morning at nursery? Mind that road. Wait at the gates. Stop there, wait. Good boy. Have you shown grandma your new shoes? No. Oh. Mind, cos there's a car coming Tim. Played in the sand. Played in the sand? Was that with good James or naughty James? Naughty James. Ooh. Was naughty James good? So there we are. Mm. And they use the whole of the house, you know there's the downstairs, that little room that you saw. Yeah. That's known as the nursery room. Yeah. And then they go in all the rest Then they go in all the rest of the well just the downstairs. Downstairs, mm. So they can go, they have a story time in the sitting room, you know with a That's nice that's They play on the floor with a Yeah. trucks and everything. It's friendly isn't it? Mm. You know what I mean? It's not institutionalized. Well it's better isn't it? Well I think so. And there's nobody shrieking at them and there's only twelve of them there and you know, nobody's getting cross with anybody. Well I mean I suppose they do when they do something stupid. But there's not there's not like Yeah. That's right. Which is also why I feel that he ought to go to Ironcrest as well. Because otherwise school will become a little Mm. horrendous won't it? And if he goes to Specially Woodrow just for mornings only he'll be able to stick up for himself and that won't he? Yeah. But it's sad really because I mean does all sorts of things with them which He won't get when he goes, mm But then Christopher survived didn't he? Yeah. And I think it's important That's where they normally put it. Sometimes they put it in the erm van. Mm. But one lad messed about and pushed it through those holes. Which is, Mary said, she said did you? I said I did I said and I had an awful job to get it out again. Said they were roaring laughing watching him try I don't know why he tried to push them in there. Mm nor do I . There you are. Had a phone call from the health visitor this morning. Shock. See if Timothy was alright. To tell me he would, she would come when he was four and a quarter. It's christmas isn't it? Oops! I'm falling out here. Right, would you like to take those for grandma? No you. And that's for grandma. You, you take it. Well there's lots for grandma so we'll have to sort out what's what. That looks like us that's us, that's us that's us, that's grandma. Can you go and ask her how many bags she's got? Tim? Could you go and ask her how many bags she's got? How many? Try One two three four Four. There's only four. Well that's okay then. There's one. For you. Can you manage that one, it's a bit heavy? You take those two and I'll take Okay. How many bags do you think you had? I don't know . One two three four we've got. We've got four. Yeah, sausages. So it's not mine, so if we've got it somebody else's. This thing's still round. Oh yes. We've got four. We've got four what? Have you locked your car then? Four bags. Have you locked the car? I've shut it up anyway. I don't think I've locked it actually. I don't wish could come Monday. Mm? She could come Monday. Otherwise I won't see her will I? I tell you what then, you bring Timothy here erm if you're going swimming. Oh right! I'd forgotten about that. And we'll give him a ride on the bus to your house. And meet you at our house? You, you'll have to bring Timothy here. Yeah. Then you can er come too soon, I don't know what time the trains be in. What time is she coming, is she arriving? Well she should be, should get the twelve thirty six. Oh. So, you'll have to bring Well that could get confusing. We'll have to see whether we go swimming. I should think we will cos If you're going to go swimming bring Timothy here very lively. and then we'll get on the bus about half past four and bring him to your house. Right. Cos he'll like that won't he? Yes. Oh. I thought that we, we we sort of eating up I think. You'll have to decide what you want. What's the choice? There's erm What are you doing Tim? Are you full of energy? Yes he is isn't he? He's normally wiped out after nursery. Well Mummy was last collecting you wasn't she? what's in these. We'll have to look. There's two with corned beef. Two with corned beef. Three with cream cheese and one with real hard cheese but I can't You can't think out which one find which is, it is. There's still some more things in here. I think you need to go to the toilet first before we have lunch. Erm and go and go to the toilet then . Let's go. I'll have a l we'll have to look inside and see what's in. Would you like some tomato mummy? Erm I like cream cheese. You like cream cheese. Yes please. I'll put you one out. What? What what what? What what grandma say? Tomato. Would I like a tomato. No. And I said yes please. Would you like a tomato? No. Well that's alright then. I want cream cheese all by itself. Right-y-ho. Er the tomatoes Do you want to sit in your place? were they left in your er car? Oh. Why, are they in a special bag? They're in a bag on their own I think. Can't see them, Bag on their own? I think they were on their own. Were they er l loose or were they in a packet? In a packet in a bag. I just take That's that's the apples. We've got the apples. Oh they're here. Tell mummy they're here. We've got them. We've got them . No, we've got them. I did worry about that cos I don't think You'd seen them like, no. Yeah. Tomatoes knocking about I takes them out. Yes alright, well you needn't bother any more with those Oy. Right. Now let's start. had my children have you?my children? I know. And me. It's horrid. And then I had a go at him. Yes they always go in that I'm started. Pardon? I'm starting. Well don't start until grandma comes. Well just look what he wants in mummy. We're just waiting for you grandma. Yes right. It's polite. Shall we put the light on? Well let's wait until grandma's sat down cos she can't think straight otherwise. Are you coming to sit down for this meal? Are you warm enough? There's no heat on at the moment. No I'm sweltered thank you. Right, now we've got to see which is hard cheese and which is My throat's hurting. Is it? What's hurting love? His throat's hurting. My throat. Oh well,th We've had a family sore throat. I think that is cream, ooh that'll be lovely and soft. Ooh cream please. I want this one. That's well I don't know whether that's real cheese or cream cheese. You'll have to just look. Yeah, cream cheese. Is it? Oh that's okay then. Now then I've got one. You can say thank you now . Amen. Yeah these are cream cheese. Is it nice? Seems a long long time since we used to do it. Cos we used to do this every week didn't we? Come to you for lunch. Yeah, but we've changed the menu since, I mean we've changed the erm Itinerary. Mm. Think these are You always used to come when it was erm ch er erm tumbletots Think think think these are Mm. Think those are all cream cheeses. If Matthew's not going to come on a Wednesday You could come couldn't you? we could come on a Wednesday sometimes, couldn't we? Mm. otherwise we're missing out aren't we? Mm. On the other hand they come to you on a Monday or a Tuesday It makes it a rush don't they? Yeah. It makes it a rush if you're going back to school. Mm. Won't it? Mm. I like it when you come and we sort of can not in a rush. You know. Well we shall have to stick to the occasional I bought some of that cheese. You know, did you see me tasting some? Mm erm what was it? It was called real cheese turned into a spread. So it's not cream cheese in a spread. It's ordinary che proper cheese in a spread? Mm. Oh. Interesting. I don't know what they've done to it to make it spread, but still. Melted it. cream cheese No there's one Thought I might as well try it out. that's erm that's corned beef, that one. Yeah. So one of those is real cheese and one is cream cheese. I don't know which. Think that is cream cheese. It like that one. you'll find out. Do you want a drink Tim? No. Not yet. I've got . After I after I've eaten that bread. Mhm. I've still got They've changed changed all the programmes. I thought u at five past nine on a Friday we usually have erm desert island discs. It wasn't, did you you ? Desert island discs. And it's that Oh no, what a and it wasn't on anywhere else was it? I mean I think It was erm the Welsh whatsit party wasn't it? Mm. Oh I switched it off. I was that disgusted, I was waiting for the music. And me. I enjoy listening to that while I'm Yeah. pottering about tidying up. Yeah I do. Yeah. Mm that something else did it, ooh. They think, they seem to think that we want to think about the election all the time. Well you don't do you? No. I'm quite happy to listen to some things about the election cos in fact I don't know I think you have to keep up. You've got to keep up with it a bit but I think that all those at the same And they also just tell it the flavour they fancy don't they? Mm. Course they do. That's what gets me. This is cream cheese this. Good. Meanwhile you know, the rest of the world Is going on. Yeah. And we don't know what's going on in it do we? No. I tell you what's a good programme er the seven o'clock erm I suppose if I got a newspaper it would help. Yeah but you've got to plough through the newspaper Page twenty four Mm. before you get any news. Mm. Mm cos it's all full of Du Duchess of erm York now. Oh well, that's a do isn't it? Can I have my bread? I'm not surprised. cream cheese. Have a look and see what's in it. Have a look before you bite it. Yeah it is cream cheese. Oh good. It is. In that case I'll have this corned beef one if that's alright. Nice corned beef, mm. I think, think this one's cream cheese. Oh I expect There's speculation about the other two isn't there? Mm? Charles and Diana. Oh aye there's something, some somebody they said no, they're alright. But you don't know. I think think think think think think th think that one is not cream cheese. Think that one's real cheese. Hard one. Think that's a hard one. Yes I I think it's got to be. Well you don't mind them having their ups and downs provided they Yeah . to the ups. Well, you know. They don't seem to want to try. They went together, they've been somewhere together the other night. Who? Prince and Princess of Wales. If you, if you look inside it If you look inside I mean they seem to erm erm decide on what things they're going to support. Yeah. They seem to have got it together a bit more. If you, if if you look inside this one Yeah? it is real cheese. Good. Is it? Oh. It's not cream cheese that one. Chatterbox. Mm. There's something I'm oh I remember. You know, you remember Margaret, next door to us in Hartsett Close No yes. She's got a job at . Oh has she? Is she teaching? Yeah. Mm. I can't remember what it is is it nice the ch She got married didn't she? Yeah, she got married er it was told me. Ooh do you know I said I can't remember it. Somebody who used to live next door to you, so it must have been Hartsett Close then. Oh Margaret Margaret. Oh yes I said, but I don't know what her married name is. And I said and I can't Mm. I can't even remember her surname. Mm? I can't even remember her erm maiden name. And it was their dog that used to itself and there was Pat and Mm. A nice, nice family. Mm. And the chap, he was nice. He was nice. They were all nice, that family. Do you remember them going away and leaving and leaving Nancy and she had that Mm she was a case. With the party? Yeah, but she's she's calmed down now. Has she? She yes. Oh yes. She learned her lesson on that one. turned up that she'd not invited. They, they spoilt the toilet. Didn't they pull the toilet out or some such problem? I don't know. They said they'd never go away and leave her again. They went that's right. They went to N erm Margaret's er degree er thing. Er it, I mean, mm. She was friendly with er Cath wasn't she? Yeah. Well they reckon she's joined this christian group, Margaret did. Mm. Anyway, she's teaching at St Clements school. Are the still in Hartsett Close then? Mm. Oh. Last time I saw them they were. What's it like up there now? It's alright. All, all that Manchester Road improvement oh it's all been done up you see. Mm? Mm. . Have they put nice families in? Yes and so, you see there's er there's two er places for old people. Er er So it's on the up ? Think And they've tak beautiful it is. Because it was doing it when I was there. And they've had permission I think are mine. Is it? Think one of these I think, think these are mine. Mm well, you'll want some pudding won't you? Yeah. Erm, what was I going to say? Meant to tell you about Margaret the other day and it's just dawned on me, I meant to tell you before I forget. It was because the rector told me on Sunday night. Here they are. Well they, the nursing home is beautiful. They've made ever such a a ramp right from the front, it goes round and round and round and round, so it's all flat up to the front door. Mm. And the gardens they've made, they've made beautiful and do you know they've had permission to use the old name . Oh. So the name is still there. And that other big house, opposite the end of Ashenhill Lane don't you remember? So the house is now an old people's home? Not, the house is burnt down. I know. But they've called it the house? Yes, yes it's an old people's home sort of thing, mm. That's the real cheese for somebody. For somebody. Mm. Who's that one? I don't know. Do you want some? No. No. Think you can have that. I don't think I want it thank you. Well I tell you what Perhaps grandma'll have it. I think I'll save it. Cos I I've had enough . Have it for another day. Mm. Well I'll fetch what we're going to have for pudding cos it's a bit bit of a cha er it We nanas. you have, you have to choose You think it's bananas? Yeah. He thinks it's bananas. Well, he might be right. I think it is nanas. Er he's seen some out there. Oh. But there's not one each you see. You already have to choose what we have. Think you, you two will have to have apples. Think you have to have a nana. And mummy can have a apple cos I need a nana, and you need a nana as well. Mummy will have to have a Oh he's got it all worked out. What if I want a banana? You can't have one. You yes you can. Oh. I've got some more new ones. Only that I bought green ones didn't I? So You can have a green one. I don't want a green banana thank you. Right. I'll go and see I want a yellow one and you want a You wait there and see what I bring. Mm. Let's see what what brings. Why didn't you make me a lamb this morning? Cos I did er . How did they make them? stick them on. They stuck something on? Yeah. Cotton wool? Oh I'd have liked to Yeah. a lamb. I'd have liked a lamb. You were too busy doing other things? Mm. Mi mingy thing. What were you doing all the time then? Think it is nanas. What were you doing while everybody else was sticking lambs? I want Are you eating up ? Would you like me to put the kettle mummy? I want those pink things again. Pink things again? Yeah. What pink things? For throats. Oh, they're at home. Yeah, I want Now you can ch Oh my goodness sort it out yourselves now. I did You can have just what you like. Two things, you see. Think I could have Mummy I think mummy ought to choose first. No, I think I have to choose first cos think you need a nana. And I going to have a bis What, which two things are you gonna have? These. I'm gonna have You want a banana and a biscuit? Okay. Yeah I'll just have one thing. I'll just have a yogurt. It's not a yogurt, it's a Oh, whatever it is, a mousse Well I don't want a banana. I'm going to have a mousse too. Oh, sorry. I'll have one of those. Now would you like me to put the kettle on or not? Now, or not? Oh yes please. Mm. I haven't got a spoon to eat this with. I think I'm going to have to eat it with my fingers. I put a spoon somewhere. Well not here you haven't. I put two knives instead. We don't eat it with knives do we? I hope this banana's okay. It's a bit grey. How long have you had these bananas? They look a bit grey. They're not, they were, they were green They're alright inside are they? and they're alright when you undo them cos I had one for my, I had, I had one with erm Kelloggs cornflakes last night. You never know with bananas do you, what they're going to be like inside? No you don't. Just wait and see what if not he'll have to have something else. Only two? Only two what? Two things. I'm only having one thank you. Well I'm going to I'm going to have two things. Mm. I'm going to Do you want coffee or tea? Erm I don't mind really. What are you having? going to make a pot of tea. Well I'll have a tea. That'll be nice. I think I'll have that nana this one. Oh alright then. There you are. Put that one back. Think it's a bit grotty. Oh! Think it's okay. Mm. They're alright when you get the cover off, you know. Cover off! Cover! I took the cover off last night and had them with er cornflakes and they were lovely. Well, it is a cover. Isn't it? But you don't usually say that. I've got those photographs back by the way. Oh have you? So you can have one. Eh? Well they're just like the first one. Oh of course those that, yeah. Have you, have you brought me one then? Yeah. Good. I ordered twenty five. You did. I remember, I was with you. Do you remember? We had Martin The woman was horrified wasn't she? Mm. Couldn't believe it. have to have with my nana. What am I have to do with my nana? Eat it, I should think. Little bites? Yes. I am a bit it's too many Think took too much. Mm. It's alright, I'm just seeing if there was any tea in it. Not yet dear. Cos that would have been a bit quick really wouldn't it? Was a bit quick for it to boil, yeah. I don't Oh that was very nice. Thank you. I don't keep a machine out there. I could do with a nice sleep now. Mum Well I don't think you'll get it . I don't think I am either. I don't want You what? We could have I tell you, we can have we could have the rad er telly for him on there couldn't we? One o'clock does he watch that ? He never does normally but he might do it today. Given the opportunity. Well we can try it can't we? Mm. I've got to go to the post office actually. You want milk. Oh it Oh. They don't, it doesn't shut. I don't think it shuts. As far as I know. I don't know Dorothy. I don't think it does. I think it stays open all the time now. Mm. Like the main one do. The main one shuts? No. Oh. Oh look at that. Can you not hold it? Fast No. tight. Erm what was I going to say? No I don't know. it's gone. Yes, I've got to post a card for Ruth. Er not a card a present for Ruth. Mm. sent a card yesterday. And then I've got some letters to post that I've written and hopefully will write in the next hour or so. Oh well it'll be open by two o'clock . Well I thought if I have a walk over there at two then by the time I get back it'll be time to go and get Christopher won't it? From school. And are you going to see And then we're going to the dentist at four. One two Oh are you? Mm. three. There's only three biscuits. There's only one nana. And I've eaten the other nana. You have haven't you? Banana. You can't say banana can you? No. Bana. Banana. Banana. B B No. I go It's like your marmalade in the morning isn't it? What do you call that? Marmalade. Lama oh you can say marmalade! He said it then didn't he? Marmalade. Yes. He always Marmalade. he always calls it lamade or something in the morning, don't you? Marmalade. Mm. Mm. That's the wrong one. That's the right one, marmalade. Banana. Can you do that one? B go on, go B. Banana. That's it. Put your lips together go on. He did it. Did he? No. Banana. Babana. There you go banana. I didn't say that word. You nearly said it. B A Banana. B A bana. Ba nana. I got I told you the about a different bana. Oh are you? A different bana? A orange bana. An orange banana? Dear me. I like those. Do you? Whoops. And some of them have pips in. You know that programme you were asking about? Mm. Maxie's fun Yeah? I think I must have watched it or listened to it or something like that. Oh. We had it a couple of weeks ago by accident. And Christopher really enjoyed it Mummy. because it was when he was ill. I thought I'd tape it. Can I look through On the, on the on the television Dorothy? On the television was it? Can play with, yeah. Think it was on channel four. That's oh well I've watched it then. By mistake some time I have. Mm. What? Can I watch Would you like to go to grandma and ask her for a cloth? Yeah. So what a long time it is since you came, I've tossed it in the drawer. Hello. Clean that face, it's grubby. You're back. That's a grubby face he's got mummy. It is a grubby face. Can you see a bit? No, not yet. Can you see that bit? Er, I can see on the top there but there's lots there and there. And can you can you see that bit? No. There's a piece there but I can't see Can you see that bit? Well you'll have to scrub it hard. Come here. Can you see that bit? Come here. Ah no. I that bit. Have a look now. Can you see that bit? Yes that's okay now. Now you need to go round your nose because that's a real mess there. Getting quite grubby isn't it? There. Well not quite. There's a big crack here I think. cracks. There, that's better. There, it's just round your mouth now. Beautiful. There. Oh look at this handsome boy. Oh I can see him now. Mm it's Timothy we've had sitting on that chair. What about that hand? Mm. There. Good. Good. Right. Let's take it back out shall we? It's a bit wet isn't it? Can I watch the ? Well well if you switch the telly you won't find Five more minutes. You can have Sesame Street in five minutes if you In five minutes. When that big hand gets up to twelve you can have it on. I had a different one. Well there isn't a different one darling. It'll be all different this from what you've had . Cos there's no video. Grandma hasn't got a video. But there's some nice pictures on in a bit. Why don't you get some toys to play with? No. I want you play with me. What at? Erm something. Something. Yeah. What sort of something? Bricks. We can get Bricks? Bricks. There's some bricks Oh. What was that? some bricks over here. What about washing up? Think grandma . Oh no she doesn't. Yeah. Poor grandma. Yeah. She gives us our lunch and we have to wash up for her then. No. Oh yes we do. There seems to be a mess on this table, look. No, you play. You help us take the things out to the kitchen. Wait a minute. Are you going to have a drink first? Well I thought if I washed up then I'd have my drink after. Oh, I'll leave it then. Because see he could draw on this table then you see if we leave it. put it up. Can you er can you put the bubbles in cos I want this to get bubbles on. Okay. Let's just go and Go and wash up for me. That's right. I got bubbles on and this one. Can you put bubbles in? Yeah, just let the water get hot first. It's already hot. Is it? Yeah, feel it. Feel. Feel it. Mhm. Feel. Yes. It's nice and hot now. Yeah. Gently does it. It gets very hot that that water. It's hot now. It is. Are you going to take that? Or are you taking the ? There's now lots of bubbles. Yeah. Where's the It's very hot. What are you planning on doing with Mrs then? Well I'm really planning on taking her on Oh yeah. That was on Tuesday? Yeah. Er on Wednesday. Seems hardly worth it does it? Well . Well if we come and if we come and see your mummy, that'll be nice. If that's alright . Don't, don't touch that cos she hasn't had it yet. Does she eat anything? What do you mean? Well I mean There's no, she's not on a diet if that's what you mean. If you erm she, yeah she'll like anything you want. Can I She's got Can I take can I put these Well I sh put that in the thing underneath there. Mm. In, in the thing Oh well where can I put the biscuits? Well I'll have to find out where they go. Just a minute. I think it's fish pie on the agenda on Monday. Oh well she'll like that then. Here whe're, whe're you going with that? Put the, put the Where does this go? put that in there. Yeah. there's none left you see. That's ooh! Oh! You Mary-Ann He's missed mum. Just leave those there Tim. I'll just have to find the box. He wants to know Why? I'll find a box. Wait a minute. Where's the box? They'll have to go in here. Let grandma do it. Wait a minute. One One two two three That's it. And mummy wants the plate to wash. I give it to Mind mummy. Thank you. There. You'd better have Timothy. What? What? Okay, it's okay. We . It's alright. Don't touch the tea because we haven't eaten it yet. I mean we haven't drunk it yet . We'll leave that there. Cos we haven't had it yet. Take those to mummy to wipe. Take this one as well. Here. Thank you. Not in here. Just wipe it. You've got to wipe it. Not there. get soaked. Look. Do you need a cloth for the table Tim? Er well we don't cos we've still got our tea on it. Right. It's one o'clock now. Oh, you can put number four on. How convenient. Eh? Let's see what comes on, shall I? Shall I throw this out? I'm gonna press this num pardon? Do you save that or I don't think we need it too loud, do we grandma, when it comes up. Oh it doesn't come up very loud. I know it doesn't at the moment but you know what I mean. Well we'll just have it up a little bit else you can't hear what they're saying. Well I know that but gets a bit er Er Christopher left his hat. Did you know? Did he? What sort of hat? The hat that he made. Oh. I didn't even know he'd left a three till next time mummy. One two three four five six seven eight nine ten eleven. Eleven. Right. next then? Orange again. Orange again. Do you have some of these at nursery? Thread and beads? No. Do you have something a bit like it? Cos I remember seeing somebody threading some beads once. No. In a few minutes Tim we're going to walk to the post office. they don't seem to have any of these here at Churchill these . Here you are, pink. You'd think they would have wouldn't you? Cos you'd think there'd be a lot of local people who . Yeah cos erm these I find these lovely for a tea or something when I want to just Mm. You'd think more so than a big Tesco's because you wouldn't think lots of people Yeah well there's rows and rows of them in that big Tesco's. Oh. Yeah. Whoops. Oh dear. But sometimes I think cos er an old lady, I've told you about her before she said I wish they wouldn't have all these big things she said. I don't want big things. I said I know, yeah. Suppose they think they're being a value or something cos they're cheaper. Yeah but they're not you see are they? They're not to me because you can have them so long while I think oh not even in the fridge am I keeping this any longer, you know . I suppose they do keep but you know you sort of think Well you get fed up with it don't you really? Yeah. The same old thing. And I like to go round and get something erm ooh I think I'll have that, you know? Something that I wasn't expecting to buy. But if you've got a whole load of stuff at home Another blue. you think you've got to erm you feel you've got to eat it don't you? How many have we got on here now Tim? It's quite a lot isn't it? I don't know. One two three four five six seven eight nine ten eleven twelve thirteen fourteen sixteen. Fourteen fifteen, yeah? Fourteen fifteen and here's number sixteen. There. Number sixteen now. One two three four five six seven eight nine ten eleven twelve thirteen fourteen sixteen seventeen Fifteen sixteen. You keep missing out number fifteen. It goes fourteen fifteen Seventeen. There's sixteen on there. After number fourteen comes fifteen. No cos there's lots of more. Yeah it still comes fifteen after fourteen. Let's put some more on and see what we get next. There's one. Catch. What colour? Whoa I can't catch them. I haven't read anything like this before. For the pedal bin. Lemon scented. Lemon scented. Good grief. Look. Got fifty though. Fifty in a thing for Mm. like a penny each they were. Mm. Are they environmentally friendly? I don't know but everything's environment environmentally friendly in that place now. Mm I think so. Well it says it is, whether it is or not I don't know. yellow red. That's it. We've got them all on. Yeah. So how many have we got now? We'll do this, we'll just thread this on. It's . Ooh you're getting them on. Wonder how many we've got there. Ooh I say. You've got a lot there. One two three four five six seven eight nine ten eleven twelve thirteen fourteen sixteen seventeen. Thirteen fourteen fifteen. Fifteen. No. You're your mummy. Thirteen fourteen fifteen. He keeps missing out fifteen. It's Oh. And do you know what? I think there must be another box of these and they've sort of got in and that seems to have got in the wrong box. Yeah. I don't think, are they in here? Yes they're here. Yes. Mm. Oh they're here. I at our house Yeah I think they're at my house. or at yours. Oh . What's this on my cushion? Who's brought sand in? Me. You've brought the beach home from nursery. Good gracious, you'll have no sand left. Will she? Was it on your bottom? No it can't have been. Shoes, it must have been on your shoes. No it's, he he was sitting he had, it must be on your shoes. Have you seen his new shoes grandma? No, has he got some more? He's got new shoes. Are you gonna show grandma your new shoes. Have you got new shoes? Didn't show me those did you? I know his others were getting a bit Oh I say. Laces this time. Ooh, can you tie them? Look at this already. Where've you been? You've only had them on one morning. Oh. You've gotta be careful with your shoes haven't you? Were you scrabbling about the floor? Well well. Little boys always do things like that mummy. Did you know? No. Never heard of it. Haven't you? Oh. Well you're hearing about it now I think. What a mess. Would you like to ask grandma if she's going to come to the post office with us to help post the parcel? Or whether we've got to go by ourselves. I think er go er by ourselves. Do you? You go and ask her, see what she'd like to do. She might want the walk. You want to come with us? Where are you going? To the post office. Yes I want to pay for me er papers so Oh well there we are, that's That's handy. It is handy. You're right . And then I needn't go round that way tomorrow. If I want to go into town I don't need to worry about . Are you Got it. Are we going now then? I'm just gonna make a building and then we can get ready. Alright. You make a building then I'll . With me. Think we need all the the way. I'm going to put that into here. Mm. And these things go erm here. Mm. Don't you need a door? No a lid. We haven't got a door. Put a door here. Now where's the door? Here's the door. We need a bit more there. Need Well if you do that we won't have time for the shop. There's a door. no. There's the little gap. Well it's the opening for the door. No that's the opening for the door. It's closed this. There's a window. It's it's a bit closed, this. No, that's the building outside it. That's the building outside it. Ooh. That's the building outside the house. That's . These these there. You need some bits over here. Then we need one of these on top of it. I've made a house. Mm I think that's alright that. I think you've done that rather well. No. There's a little bit more. Well there isn't any more bricks to go for is there? Yes. Grandma hasn't got that many bricks. Need to put these over Mm. there. And that over here. There. It's a house. Good. Right. Let's get ready to go out. No I want to show grandma. Oh right. Okay. Grandma . Oh good gracious me. Come and see. Come and see our building grandma. Oh that's lovely gran that's a lovely house. It's our building. A house. Mm. Very nice. And we've got a set of beads. And those beads, yes. Right. We'd better go now otherwise in a rush. If you're going to go else you'll be late for Christopher won't you? I don't want to be in a ru changed again? Mm? I gave it to Christopher this morning cos I knew I'd forget tonight . Yeah. So I'll have to go and change it now. Shall we go and change it now? Good. Do you No I like that one. Do you? Oh well there we are then. Oh well let's go and sort it out with Mrs I thought I thought it was too complicated to say to him. Yeah. And I thought he'd have given it in or something, well Mrs would have took it off of her children. Erm what am I gonna do with him? Just a minute, I'll bring him in. I don't want that one, I wanted Yeah, I know you wanted that one and I thought well if this morning It is good actually this one. We've enjoyed this one, we've had it for two weeks. Well I said to er Mark I said, we Mum. And you can have any number playing. You know you can have the whole family at it. Sometimes it takes two minutes and sometimes it takes twenty. Mum that one. Hello. What, do you want this one? No. of that one Oh. cos she'd had it since the beginning of February. Oops I'd say she's lost it unfortunately. Well I wonder if this one would be Hold it. They they've already put a claim on this one. Oh you're having this one. You'll have to swap with Seventy one. Is this the takeaways any good for Jenny? Shall we do any takeaways Jenny? So that's what, seventy one back. And you want seventy one instead of sixty nine? Please, yes. If that's yeah. Yeah? Yeah. Well Mark does. one to another. Yes? What about next Wednesday? What about next Wednesday ? All day? I know your your bottom of the list has come to the top now. Has it really? Comes round quick doesn't it? I give you a little bit of warning. Could you manage that for Pauline do you think? Right. All day? Yes. Erm just let me check. Wh what day are we on? Wednesday? Wednesday. I think it's the twenty fifth. Think it's the twenty fifth. Twenty third Monday, yeah. Er as far as I know that'll be okay. Okay. I'll let I'll let you know Monday if I've got trouble with babysitters. Tell me Monday if you can. Monday morning if you can. Yeah. Okay. That's fine. That'll be Okay. it'll be nice at the end of the month for you. Oh wonderful. You're used to the little ones over this area though aren't you? More than the top end. Oh I'll do anything. Flexibility is my name. Are you? Well Okay Dot? Yes, fine. Erm what are we having now? What do you fancy? Do you need to go to the toilet? You nip to the toilet and I'll just have, stay here. I don't need to. You alright are you? You were sort of dallying about from one foot to the other. What's this here? This looks fun. Jumped a log. Go on six. Horse racing. What's this one? Hallo Alan. Choose one then please. Hold on, wait for me to see. It's coming apart on the back. I haven't had chance, I only noticed it Oh okay we'll and I haven't had chance to count the counters. Mum I'll have this. Okay then. I don't know if all the pieces are there cos I only just noticed, you know? We've had that one. Oh we've had that one haven't we? Alright, we'll have a look at that Mrs . You've had yours a long t a minute ago cos I've picked it up for somebody else. Do you want this one Alan? Yeah. Oh. Alright then. What number's that please? Thirty two. Thirty two, thank you. Mum Oh you've got a little erm ulcer on there. What number's she having? Forty four. Okay then. What is it. It's a little ulcer that you've got on your lip. Thank you Laura. Thanks Tracy. Mum. Yeah. Oh did I put the second last week? My tropical fish. We don't know what's in there do we? What's in there? I was hoping I'd be able to get in without bothering. Oh we've had that one. I have singing fishes. This one's got to be, got to be mended. Okay . What about this one? Oh this looks fun. Take in turns to throw the dice. Subtract the number you throw from ten and, that looks fun. Yeah that looks our sort of thing doesn't it? Shall we have a go at that one? Yes mummy. Which one would you like to do? Have a look and see what you think. And then we'll tell you why you can't do it. Have you got Tim asleep? Yeah, that's why he's in a pushchair. It's erm mother's day assembly next Thursday. Erm Friday, so we'll all be sitting in the hall. Alright? So do come. sorry. Oh. Bye Sarah. Okay, no I haven't done. This one. Mm? Mum, this one. What do you fancy, this one? Let's have a look. Oh I reckon you've had that one Chris. We haven't. Is it any use? right in the beginning? No. I don't think so. We haven't had this one. Oh Timothy might enjoy that . Timothy might enjoy this one. Mm. Apparently Timothy will enjoy that one. You'll enjoy that one. That's more complicated. It's a hard one. You want this one? Alright. It's a bit naughty isn't it to have had such a good game and er We're having this one so that we can play with Tim. Twenty eight. Twenty eight. You'll be able to tell Timothy what to do. Ooh. Are you allowed to do that? Oh you're allowed to tell him what to do. Whether he does it or not is another issue isn't it. Yes. Right, what have we got in that bag there? Have you got everything you need? So we might see you on erm Mm. Wednesday? Sounds like it. Right lady Oh dear. This particular study for so he could listen to it. Erm, he had said, that if nothing else he discovered how lively the children were at my school. I I I recorded it in a closed classroom during the lunch-time playtime and you can still hear the children's voices wafting through the double glazing. So, anyway, I hope it wasn't too distracting for him, and that he was able to pick out, erm, the information that he wanted. So. Thank you very much for leading us tonight, and all here will be interested to hear what you have to say. Thank you. Will I hope I'm not going to lead you astray. No. Er, one of the things that I I I do wish hand-book writers would er, do, is to erm, write whenever practical, to seek out the strength of the group, at the beginning, so, that for example, how mu if there are those of us who've been magistrates or been before the court, or involved in legal processes. It's to know that in advance because I think they then have a practical contribution to make. Anyway, before I say any more about that. I looked up the subject, Justice, in the new dictionary, and it said, To Treat Justly, or to Treat Fairly, and then it went on to talk about legal justice. But the subject of justice itself, harked on mainly the legal aspect which these notes deal with, is I think one of the most penetrating subjects have affect all our lives. So this little tape, this little recording, er, highlights in justice, which probably is even a more fascinating subject as justice. Well the two in a way are inseparable. Right, away we go. All being well, that's if er,th that's if er, the electricity's on. beautifully written. You heard it alright down that end. Yes be okay. Is that in the way, Mind you don't fa no. Mind you don't fall over. Can I push it under the chair somewhere. I should, yes. because you might That out of the way. Might fall over the wire. It occurred to me that so many of the people who influence our lives are people who have been unjustly treated. I I hope this is not a mischievous comment, but I I think it's very questionable, whether the Christian faith would be known as it is today, down two thousand years, had it not been for an innocent man, Jesus, being unjustly punished and crucified, and so many of the great reformers in the history of man, men and women have died or suffered grave imprisonment because of injustice, and in a paradoxical way, injustice in a way,yo you almost seem as if we need injustice to drive us on, to get things done in a, in a better way. So that I think, had the subject been injustice, it would have just been just as er, exciting as justice, fact or fiction. I hope therefore, we will keep in our minds the meaning, that justice means to treat justly, or to treat fairly, and remember that it's a double ed sided coin. The notes that have been prepared for us go over er, rather briefly the legal systems in our land, and er, even references made to France, which has a slightly different legal system, which may be a bit better than ours and so that, in the notes, we not only look at the High Court, the High Court, the Criminal Court, the County Court er er, and realise what an important part of legal proceedings er, these courts fair, as well of course, as the largest courts of all,, the Magistrate's Court. Now, when asked if I would introduce this subject, she said, I think I'd better mention this for the sake of the truth, of of of everything, er, she said, as you raised, you been appeared in the paper, obviously, in dealing with something, it seemed to you, unjust, our folks thought you ought to introduce this subject. So I thought I'd better clear that little matter up, for starters, because you would be very interested. For twelve months, I've been trying to er, when I realised that that was put on my cleaning bill, it seemed to be so unfair that the little ol and the lady who, up till now has has cleaned for me, because the home help service, no longer just does cleaning. And I, er and I pretended to be incapable and I, and said I would like someone to go and help me do shopping, home health service would have, come along. Yeah. because I was straightforward and said, all I want is someone to come and see my place is kept clean, and they said, we can't do that anymore, They're not trying. and we will give you a er, two addresses, and so they gave me two addresses and and to reach people at I've done the job quite well. broken down since the paper article, hadn't had a sole come since that newspaper article. disappeared. And now, and now. Well, I reckon so, so I I've arranged for someone else to do it now. Er, but the point I wanted to make was that, after trying for twelve months, first of all, er, I wrote to my local M P. I went through the proper process and the local MP er, er MP for Labour, didn't know much about it, and he referred it to the Postmaster General, I think it is, who took three months to answer. Mm. When eventually, he was blaming the European Union, not European Community now, boys and girls, that's right, isn't it, it's European Union now, isn't it. Yeah, listen I I Yeah, another European Community. Anyway, he said that they had imposed this, and the Government couldn't do anything about it. It was the directive, the word he used. On checking further with the European Union, I don't take anything for granted, not even what MPs say, er, it turned out that it wasn't a directive and that the Government had freedom of choice, whether it imposes it or not. So then, of course I went to the Euro M P. That's how I found out about it. Then last November, I went to see her, she was out, and I see her Press Officer. I gave her all the papers, and erm, she said well, and that meanwhile had, spoken to me on the phone, and said she would do what she could. that the local MP and the, and the, couldn't do anything more about it. And, er, the upshot of all that was, I got a phone call, what, three weeks ago, from one of the papers saying, we'd like to come and take your picture Mr cos we're doing this article about on on er, on care services, so I said, okay, so he came and took a picture. That's all I knew about it. You've all seen, or most of you have seen the article, I was never interviewed by the press, whatsoever. Oh, typical. Yeah, typical. Yeah, yeah. which, and I was quoted as well, they may, I mean, whether the Press Officer, er Press Officer, er er, quoted me, and he altered my conversation with her, I don't know. But the important thing was, the impression that everyone er had, who read the paper, was that I had been interviewed by the press. Mm. In fact, it was only naming one lady on the paper. Mm. I just mention that, because that, I thought you ought to know the truth of that, you know, and things aren't what they appear in the paper. No. Can't believe anything, can you. No harms done, really, although I wouldn't have said, what was attributed to me, I wasn't moaning about the money. I never moan about hardship. I was arguing about the principle, that er, I mean, the lady who came to clean for me, was a nursing auxiliary, and if I'd had rheumatism, she would have bathed me, and done sort of thing as well. So that little old ladies who are, decide, or old gentlemen for that matter, want to try and live in the community, and then, they stick that on their bill. It's the only, and it's only because, and this is, I mean, having to understand why Government, surely the majority of supporters of the present Government wouldn't approve of this. The only exception in my case, is that I've used a firm that does more than thirty-five thousand pounds worth of work a year. Mm. Yeah. Mm. And that, the answers I got from Government was, use a voluntary body, they don't have to pay that. Er, use the County Council, I said, they weren't prepared to do it. But they would do cleaning just cleaning, the County Council will, though it hasn't got the people to do it. But of course, they've priced, they've done this by charging eight pounds an hour. Yeah. Yeah. Oh. For someone to come and clean, and then you would have to pay V A T on it. You see, cos they don't say that, and anyone else who doesn't, who does less than thirty five thousand pounds worth of, if Mrs down the street said, I couldn't do forty pound, then they don't have to pay that. But that was not the issue. And t and th then, since the paper talk, that's right, it's nothing to do with it, but it may have a bit to do with justice, we'll get round to it in a bit. T since the the paper article, I wrote direct to the Chancellor, as he's living down the street, personal letter to him. He didn't answer it personally, eventually about three weeks afterwards I got the letter from Customs and Excise, who deal with this, saying, in a rather remarkable last paragraph, We have to charge V A T right across the board. In other words, if any of you were wealthy enough to employ a lady or a gentleman t do the cleaning. To do the cleaning Then, they have to charge V A T. But I always thought cleanliness was next to Godliness, Mm. I mean, I didn't think he had to have V A T on, I mean, if it's a millionaire, you know, and they employ la , they employ people to clean. I was surprised that that is put on cleaning. But because it's got to be right across the board, and they won't make exception, of people like myself and others who are living in the community that need home help. Mm. So that's the whole story, I thought you ought to know. Yeah. This has been happening to me, just the same. Pardon. It's happened to me just the same. Yes, yes, so er. What paper was you in, Oh, I don't know. Mercury Mercury or Post, look, I saw it in the Herald and Post. Mercury was, yes I it's one in the Mercury and the other one was the one with the picture. Yeah, Herald and Post, cos I saw it. Now then, back to subject. Sorry about that. Are they any here, who have been magistrates? Yell if you have, cos I can't see your hand Anybody. No. If I give you something like,now can you remember how to do that sort of thing? That's that's Make R the subject. Call that three. Two erm Make Y the subject. So that you get Y equals something. And again there. R equals something. Now in that one, erm one, this is the easiest one, I thought, Well, better give you some easier ones so you can work into that. Mhm. Erm And make X the subject of that. X equals Okay. No. Have a go at that one first, and work up that way, how's that sound? There's more work in doing these but you you should be sort of practising equations all the time. Yeah. Erm, doing awkward ones that have got fractions in. So that you're keeping up with the fractions. Doing ones that have got percentages in. Doing ones that have got maybe a mixture, of percentages. I mean it was, a couple of years ago, a favourite question, things like, erm, What's twenty five percent of a quarter? Mhm. Er how would you go about that? What's twenty five percent of a quarter? A quarter of a quarter. Right good, okay, and what will that come to? A quarter once one is one. A quarter of a quarter Dunno. One times one? One. One. Sixteen. Four times, don't forget, four times. Yeah. Er very tempting to add them. Mhm. Especially when you'd rather work with eights than sixteenths. Yeah. Okay? Yeah. It's all this sort of the bias that you've got through how you've worked things, and fiddle about with sixteenths. Erm when you once y once you've got out of the habit of sixteenths and thirty seconds, and things like that, you find that I mean, we found the other week, didn't you, that you were thinking, Oh these millimetres a bit of a pain. He was much Yeah. happier when it was back in the old feet and inches. Mm. But if you try and go back to it, when you haven't done it for years, you realize how complicated it was. Yeah. With the yards, feet and especially all the, How many yards in a a furlong and Mm. a chain, and mile and Yeah. Then nautical mile and everything else. Mm. It's er it's a pain. That's a paper. . Never mind. That's paper Yeah. That one was for how old is er Is that yours? No. Oh that's probability, it's where it starts. functions didn't we. Yeah. And again, these scribbles, I mean my excuse is they're supposed to be like that, but These won't mean a thing Mhm. in maybe two or three days time. Yeah. But in a d within the next day or so, perhaps over the weekend, if you can make your notes about what this was Put it in your own words, what was happening here. What does F of G of X mean? Erm just put a tiny note on it. erm you were all right on those. Mm. I would ask him about that Yeah. Ask him if you need to know F of G of X and G of F of X. Mhm. I mean I f I I feel that you do. But it wasn't there Yeah. on that syllabus that I've just looked at, so Mhm. don't want to load you up, with Yeah. more stuff if it's not on your syllabus. Right. So that one should be. Rrr. How do you feel about it? Mm er not too bad, but I feel, you know, I need to You you you really I need to work on it. You really do I mean And what's what's the last time It's remembering the formulas and stuff that's er is the is the major thing, because I know, like in the class, I've not actually had a lesson where I've done bad. But it's memory of er If you just have that one lesson, and he explains it to your properly, and he sets you some exercises, on what you've just done, half an hour or an hour ago, you'll get through them. Mm. But if he gives you the s exactly the same numbers even, same exercise, same number Yeah. If he gives you Yeah. a month later, you wouldn't know where to start. Yeah. Unless time from somewhere, and just had I mean, five or six goes, an the same sort of question, until you get to the stage where you just go, Oh yeah, Okay. Bang bang bang bang. Mm. And then you've got to the stage where you don't need to. I mean you know, with other jobs that you do, when you need to practise it, and when you don't . Yeah. Erm if you've got something complicated to wire up or something. Mm. Or work out what I'm doing here, maybe make a little, few little notes to yourself. Mm. I must do that bit and that before that. And make sure this bit is earthed, but that mustn't be earthed and Yeah. You do that same job, half a dozen times, Mm. in the end, you're just whizzing through it, you're thinking about what you're having for your tea. And you're talking to your mate and it's all just happening by magic. Mm. Yeah. And you're not really concentrating very much at all. But it only comes with practice, and it's Yeah. exactly the same with this. Mm. It will you know, you see it done once and do it once yourself. You think, Right I've got it. Come the exam, you will be kicking yourself, Yeah. cos you'll think, I did one of these, when was it ? Mm. Oh a couple of months ago I did one of these, now er how do I get into it? Where do I start? Yeah. What's the trick on this one? Hey. So Yeah. Right I don't I mean I know I I'm very busy, I've got stuff that I should have done, months and months ago, that I haven't got round to doing yet, cos there's been all sort of interruptions. So er But I'm the one who suffers, cos I'm not getting round doing it. Yeah. So I can't you know, can't advise you Mm. in how to find time. And you really need do it. I've gone on a bit but you do need Mm. to find yourself, several hours a week. Mhm. Erm as well as just going to night school. Yeah. So it's up to you. Erm I'm you know, I'm quite sure, if you don't, if you don't put a lot of work in, then you will finish up not getting through. Mm. And you just sort of have it all hanging over you and Yeah. do it again next year. So Mm. How long is there? A month and a bit. Yeah. There's a bank holiday coming up now, there's another one the end of May, Mhm. there'll be all sort of interruptions and Yeah. There's there's no time at all. It's gonna fly by and very soon, you'll be sort of strolling into that exam Yeah. thinking, Oh if only I spent a bit more time Yeah I'll find the time Okay yeah. Okay I mean, it's not for Yeah. me. It's for you it's for you . No no. Yeah. Yeah. Erm cos if you don't it's then either, be thinking of, Oh well Yeah it's a lot of effort going nowhere if I don't Exactly it's all wasted, what you have put in has just gone then. Yeah. And you start all over again. Yeah. Okay. Anyway I'll better get off. And erm let you have a a little Right. break from, coming in from work, starting on this . ten past ten again. Next Friday then Yeah I'll I'll What can I do for you this morning? Well I'm still getting myself in a tangle, like I was when I came. Right. But I didn't take those tablets, I tried not to do. That's the low dose Dizapac Yeah, whatever it is. Yeah. And also I keep getting a pain in my arm just here, it's a Mm. bit of a Right in there. As if If I press it, Yeah. and if I put any weight on it. Aha. Any idea what's brought that on? I don't really know, I've had it for about three week. I keep trying one of those lamps. Yeah. Okay, let's have a closer look at that arm. But it's er It's noting You know I can move it alright, there's Yeah. no problem want to go. Ah. Are you jogging? No no. Just normal summer ware. I'd thought you'd been getting exercise in. No no no no no no no, no just casual ware this summer. It's too hot otherwise. It's hot enough as it is in this place. I've got three internal walls and the wall's about eighteen inches thick with a double glazed window. I mean there's You know what What's it like up the fore arm? Is that er I it's alright, but it seems if I if I press in there Yeah. somewhere. Okay. you okay in this area here? Yeah. No problems there ? Nothing at all. Nothing on the No. backside of the elbow. You're okay there. Now let me just Is that okay? Mm. Okay, just pull your hand in towards your face a bit. Okay, you haven't ruptured the tendon. Is that tender? Not really no. In there. Under there? No. So it is Really is on and off cos there's nothing much there now, is there ? No , no. It's funny that isn't it? I don't know It's Okay. comes on and it Push out for me, push that . To you? Yeah. Well that's okay when you do that? Nothing Hmm, feel a little bit, nothing at the back. Yeah. It seems if it's okay. Just hold my hand and turn as if you were turning a door handle. Okay. And the other way. Does that hurt there? No. Er not sure what's causing that But i mean it's Well yes I mean it's it's it's more likely to have been a muscle than anything else, with pain that comes and goes. Certainly won't be a bone that's causing it. But what's irritated the muscle in the first place is Your guess is as good as mine, cos it all works perfectly. Now. Is it stress related? Well can make anything worse and will often make a lot of things carry on longer than they otherwise would normally. I don't think stress would cause this sort of pain but it'll certainly make it feel worse, there's no doubt about that. what I'm think if I do get Yeah. a little bit up tight, it Yeah. seems as if that. Yeah. Oh it'll make it worse. So I don't know but er Mm. How are you managing er things when you get up tight? Well I'm doing things, you know I'm not Yeah. So you're keeping yourself occupied ? avoiding th I've never had I mean me I'm But if you I mean if you do get very anxious what do you do? I just carry on. You just carry on. And it wears off? Mm. Well that's probably a good a way of managing it as anything really. I mean I'm not the sort of person who can sit down and watch telly all day, you know I didn't think so. Erm Er and you haven't been taking any of those Diazepam at all? I didn't take them because No. I I know Well I tried to I probably made myself a bit of a nuisance when I came in last time but , No. as I told you before I'd been like it before and it Yeah. it's er The advantage of those Diazepam is, they're there if you need them. You've still got them there if you need them. Er it's a very low dose, if you just take them every now and again you'll have no problems with them at all. And if you do feel things are overwhelming you then they may just help to bring you down again. Yeah. And that's what they're there for. Sometimes, just knowing you've got something else you can turn to is all you need cos you don't need Yeah. to take to anything, Mm. you just know they're there. I mean i it's it's it's funny thing this i It's a thing what seems to creep up on you isn't it ? Yeah. Yeah. It's very common. I I really know I mean it it's not that I'm I'm no where near like I was before, I know because I was You know reservoir treatment before, but er Yeah. Doc er Dr , Colin , he Yeah. would call men a silly bugger he did. I know him, I know him well, yeah. Well he would say that yes. He's alright though, I mean Oh yes, yes he was a Not meant offensive or anything like that. Yeah, he were a great bloke. Yeah. not taking Diazepam. Well I th I sus I suspect you will ma co continue to manage yourself. And I think for you that may be the best way of doing things. Mm. And I've got This one Yeah. Ta. But this pain, I'm not sure what that is, I mean your arm seems to be in perfect working order, so Er keep an open mind on that. It'll probably go now I've had a look at it. Like it does. This'll squeeze your arm a bit, okay? Still smoking? Mm. Drinking? No. Smoking's bad for you of course but I mean You r you really think I ought to stop? Be honest, give me a real Well, professional. smoking will help stress but smoking is much more likely to cause serious physical problems, than stress is. That's the catch. Er And it it's reckoned a hundred and sixty thousand people die a year, of smoking related diseases. Er I don't know how many people die of stress related diseases but it's probably under a hundredth. Er And I think that puts it into context. Overall your health would be a lot better off your cigarette. And if you find then things like stress and anxiety come through, there are other ways of treating that and sorting that out. I can't think of any case where people are better off smoking than none smoking, really what about a pipe? Well pipes are better than cigarettes because you don't inhale so much. Mm. fact if you don't inhale at all you're doing yourself a big favour, but you nearly always get some down ion to the system and really the o the only thing I could ethically recommend as a doctor, is stopping. Difficult to be ethically safe, this is safer than that, you know. I mean the decision is yours and you may find You may wish to sort of take take things very slowly and very gradually. Mm. I'm not going to tell you to do anything, that's not what I'm here for, but er Well I mean er we have to take notice of you don't we? Yeah. Well no you don't actually, I mean y you are free to ignore our advice and Yeah I I know that , Yeah, but I mean but I mean that would be my advice as a doctor, to stop smoking, in the long term. Mm. Certainly. Your blood pressure's absolutely fine. Impressive, it's better than mine. Bet you tell everybody. No it's true. It's true. Mine is er It's not high but it's higher than I would like but er So what am I going to do? Just carry on? Yes I think so . Do you think I ought to take anything or? No I don't think you need to take anything at all. You've got the Diazepam if you need them No, I haven't got it. Oh you haven't Oh Oh Oh you never got it. Oh, well the p Oh yes well it's now seven months old that prescription so that that'll now be invalid so ache in left arm I don't know what this is, whether it's something with work or Yeah. Comes and goes,y y y and sometimes wait and see would be the right approach for that. Cos it certainly isn't anything obviously serious, so I think we'll just see how things go, Yeah,prescription ? No, not unless you want one. I think that's the answer to that one isn't it? You don't really want I'm certainly not going to give you something you don't want, so Well let me put it to you like this, I feel sometimes that I need something, Yeah. to settle me down. Yeah. Er but sometimes I'm alright. Right, well what I could do is I could give you another prescription now, that you can go and get if you feel you are going to need something . L let me let me do that. Yeah, Let me let me do that And if it expires that's alright. Yeah, if it expires like the last one, that's okay, just chuck it on the fire. I think what I'll do I'll er I'll get the prescription. Okay. You can have one up to three times a day, er you're never going to take that I'm sure. As required. Yeah. okay? And I think what you'll find is you just need one you know, perhaps even one every three or four months, that's okay. It's just there to take the edge off things when it's not settling on it's own. And that is entirely the appropriate way to use these and they really can make a huge difference like that. Okay, thank you for your time . There you go. That's okay. Nice to see you again. Well it's nice to see you but I hate It's not personal but I I know I know I know. I really do it You don't like coming to doctors. Oh I haven't got any Okay, alright! What? This is what trousers he put them in the proper basket instead of leaving them there. They've been washed? As it happens no, they've not been washed. Ah! stop kidding about there! Oh please! Lisa's not home. You've got your killer tomato on Joe. No yeah, I've got one of them. Well where's the other one then? I'll have a look some in there. Oh I've got two. aha. There's that spoon. Oh yeah. Ow! Do you have to call Peter? I don't know. Yeah well I haven't taken them either! Where are those er All the best. Oh hello Peter ! Yeah. Daddy ! Yeah. Mummy! Better explain. Mum! What? And you better ! Yeah only cos first! Have you brushed your teeth? Tom? Get ready are you going to the toilet? Oh dear ha ha mm Mum! Oh! Mm mm mm mm mm mm . Yahhh mummy ! Where ? Woo woo woo doo be doo be doo . Ah! Mummy. You hurt daddy! Is it in Get ready Lou! I'm just gonna get my . Yeah well get ready, but come on go and get ready for school! Hey! Where you going? Get a chair to put these on. Eh? What have you got to do?done. Just . Daddy swore!that's to grandma. Sore oh! How's Lynn? Alright. You finishing off your muesli? Muesli. Yeah. How was football today? Now we only have football we can only take footballs in on Monday and Thursdays. And no one can take ball down balls in on Wednesday. Oh daddy! What are you doing with those? I've gotta do more Lego and Tom's downstairs . Do some more on the couch. Don't! Hope you're getting ready Lou! ! Got my trousers on now I'm getting on my jumper. Mum! Ooh ooh! I finished that. That's in the car Go on then off you go! Alright I'm going! Okay. Oop ha! There . There's for lunch. Have you got your lunch? Yep. I'll go away oh I haven't is moving so when it what are you getting ? Better be a reason my love, Yeah Bye dad! Bye! Bye dad! Mum mum! Choo train's in the car go and wipe that just take it downstairs and just plonk it on there mum. and then after we'll fill it in. Come on Yeah. Come on! This room wasn't like this yesterday. That's because we've been playing . Lou come over this way, come on. Come here mum. My ! Yes. Come on then ! Come on! Lou! Yeah. Moving this blooming train! You're like this all the time! Mum,where's a hanky then ? No wonder we're late in the morning! Luke, you're not ready! I am. What about your hair? Who cares! Go and have your . Go on then, go up and do your hair. Alright. Luke switch that off now. Luke Luke Noise. Tell him! Lukey! Turn it off! Show . Show . Why? Oops! Ooh we're going to the ! Alright. I'm not done. My hair. er Hair oh she p p p . Catch the back of your hair. Di doo di doo di doo di doo di doo Ooh ooh! di doo Playing di doo di doo di doo di doo di day come on you,go away! I have to draw the book. Eh? Alright. Mm. Don't ! Right stand there! There try it. No no. Hurry up there! toilet did you notice she can reach the door handle now? Which one? Toilet door. Does she tip toe? No she can do it, she pulls the door down! Wow! I'll have to watch her. Can do it open the door do you understand? Yeah I know. Mm ha ha. Have you seen his mongy face? Urgh they're dirty!! Ask daddy. Tell me a joke. when ever when i do you know where do keep their food? I don't know. . Where do you think? Come on . Leave! Oh! Woh! So they don't . Come out. I'm gonna I'm gonna Are you mad? Yep. What are you the man? I think Stuart's gone a bit mad! Has he? Can't wear your shoes! Ah! Oh! You'll have to put down one. I when? Er I was talking to you before! I heard ah Ahmed's shoes. Mm . Whether he's than just or . We should . Ah ah!. Leave it! Get picked up right from school. Who's saying that ! It's eight thirty two. Oh crikey! Why are you two always so late! We . Are you have a ? Nothing . Who's that? What? Who's that? I'm not speaking to you now! Why? Really nasty! Mum! Why? Cos you were nasty! Atch Mm. It's not funny! I'll do it. Cos, not like It is. Out there daddy! You ain't going out today. You what? Head up! No! I don't want to. Hello! Hello . Daddy. up. You're going downstairs? I'm going. Come here I'll make Head up! Mummy. . Two. Urgh that's mud yucky! More? I like it curly . I like it curly. Ooh. Head up Luke! Ooh mum mum Keep your head up! Don't need it on! Oh look, how can I do this hair. I know! That's better. Wahh! Where my stuff? Where my stinky stuff? Turn to mummy. How did you do that? My nice kitchen. Oh I forgot to look. nice . Can we . Go on! Thank you. Go on go find get your pumps on Luke!oh look at the time,waiting for you haven't got you both ready. . Where's my bag? I haven't got a drink. You haven't got anything yet! Where's the snack? We'll have to rush You're not pressing them now are you? No oh! Oh! I've Ask daddy if he's got a ten pence. I'll put your boots in there. Dad have you got a ten P ? You take that two pound to go to the . Why we got you got a we got inside it. Here you are look. That's not fair! Oh do you want to take a pound then cos I haven't got any drink in. Well Where is it? mum And I haven't signed those. reading book . Nothing. Mum where's And I'd said to the And I'd said to the dentist Mummy I thought I haven't signed nothing! No forms or anything. Didn't ask you first? No! I thought well I,bit of a The re changing or something. receptionist's fault! Yeah oh I thought well you know, you want me to sign here and sign here. You always have to. Yeah for N H S. I thought well I don't know you see, because it's changed a lot, I didn't but I thought you know. cos I have to sign anything. No I I I didn't know and now they send saying you haven't signed! Can you sign it and send it back? Mum! do you want some salt and vinegar Tuba Loops Yes please. Oh . There you are then. Oh no. wanna get one of my shoes on my way out. Yes. No he didn't. Hi-ya daddy! toys. . Hurry up! Otherwise the will be waiting for you! Coo. Come on Luke! Shoe. Ooh!. Hurry up and get your coat on!. Yeah that's coo! . You what? Because the ca which one ? . Don't know. Ha ha! About half an hour. Bye bye. I'll go I'll go and pop into today.. Well he he's It's okay yeah I got the van and our I've gotta do that strap on the car. Well I'm going, ooh I'm not doing that today . I don't know. Dad. Jason! I want I want one of his dad. Luke come on! What if I met Don't be selfish Jason! Bob? I can get, well you know the strap in on the car. Have you got your coat Gary? What? Have you got yours? Yeah. Ooh it's going to be chilly. Yeah. Luke? Yeah. I'll make you some . He's found his train. I allowed him to have his train . said we'd better go from the house. I don't know. Come on then. Mm! Do you have to make such a disgusting noise? Mum Thanks darling Mum just a minute mum Here you are Marie go on alright, is that finished? No there's plenty potato there Has she, oh no all skins off alright leave it then Can I Yes They're heavier ones Make them Stop that Ow pardon What did you have? Don't be silly Marie silly Silly No Gary silly Come on, Ready mum No, superman's was the other side We have some cake? I'll show you that's it Gary oh what's that? You need a big board Gary Got one there's I'm over the club tomorrow What's the matter, you dropped it When Nick's brought the car back Gary going on the bus? What time did you cold Up No you can heat it up in the microwave it said. Oh That's what it said in the I mean I don't know without looking at it I always have them cold, are they warm? Yeah Oh sorry, sorry, I'm used to having these cold Can I have another one dad Do you want one Marie Marie Yes I want one first I'll put two in together Dad can we No no, no no dad You a cheeky boy? Let's wait and see the first one ah? Oh Marie, it's all on the floor, here you are, try again, oh ho come on eat it up Good girl, here you are Marie, Gary be careful, what's Gary doing? Being silly He's being silly Is that potato all over the floor there, don't tread it in the carpet yes it's potato round you Can I have one? Do you know how fast? of those Do you want a cake, want one of those? Mum got two I know, you know I don't know what they are No that's what the other ones were, they're all the same I want it well go and have another one What's wrong? Is it hot? No Mm That Pancake I'll do it, I'll do the one , mm You having an apple? Are you going to bed? Oh yeah Er you're tired you are, yeah Dad, dad, dad, dad, dad Gary there's apples if you want one I know I'm not well don't do that, it's not very nice, go get an apple Don't like apple mum Alright, you haven't had very much Luke have you? There's an apple apple, I want something else instead of an rotten apple There isn't anything else now Oh Not having chocolate till tomorrow Another Gary? No thank you You can have some fruit I don't wanna Do you want some pineapple Gary? Yeah Open a tin of pineapple What do that for? I like pineapple Well what do you say? You said he has pineapple, pineapple, pineapple Oh What you can Can only have a bit I'm having he wouldn't give me some of these Er, half each I'm having all of them No you're not I am, cos they're mine they're not yours it's ours If I can't then could, yes That isn't Gary's what he nanny did What? You know I No I didn't say it was come and watch the news it's just started Has it? get more portable Well why don't you get a piece of paper and a pencil and jot it down then? Oh Gary now you've just said it Me want a oh mum, Luke just strangled Marie Pardon? Mum Marie's chair Mum want to stand What a mess Does No thank you Luke says yes, I say I did not Go then Dad, come and get Marie cos she's getting out her chair, I'm just stopping her ah, she was getting out of there what you done? Have you? I think you are Phhor stinks it stinks like a sewer Look I That's mummy's She's in there Put your feet down Gary I'm trying to, will you get Marie dad? Marie Marie come here, leave Gary alone Oh, no What's the matter? She's gonna break my table and sitting on it. Is daddy in there? Read this Why what is it? read this It's to recording us speaking Is it dad? come and sit down Can you it dad? Can you let me do it dad? Yeah, I'm still recording Can we do it when we We can't have it out I know because we don't it's not gonna see us I know Gary what chop my neck Gary and go on my neck is it?what then? Put them in, you didn't put them in and you press You press twenty seconds Gary and put them both in The time? Yeah. How many's gone in there? Oh yeah, just put another one in there That one ready then? No, I, I was gonna do it but I gave you that other half for Marie Where's I don't think the oven was hot, stop it you. It's okay, just keep it for now, that's it I'm just wait top gear, you can go to can't you just by the side of Worcester How can you? one minute Oh Look at that Ooh very nice Hello hello Marie Hello Marie she said, ooh are you giving Gary a kiss? Yeah,oh did you like that Ruth? What? That pineapple Er the pineapple Aha thank you, I was just Dad in this place You ain't having a dish Didn't we see this dad Oh no, oh dad Yes you did do take no notice don't mind You've had some of it let have some Let the music end Go on then Can we watch it again? Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh What There you go What's that in your water? oh Gary Oh She's don't you run off, go and take your tray back in. I can't oh Oh I hope Marie Dad do you I'll go and find Pardon? Well Oh, oh Oh dear Shall I shut the door? Do it when Marie comes in Right hand oh god I can see you She's opened it, she can open, she's opening the door I know, that looks good Mm mm that's mm one for the , bring the walker in I get it Watched the wind David David hello what watched the, the door with the wind There's no wind and well go on out then, he probably wants to speak to you, Gary just a minute Oh I've got to let's get Marie then Oh I thought you'd Gary hasn't got round to watching it Da, da Thunderbirds I'll watch it Its ain't you,come on this What's with that? What's the matter?said the bears, yes. Your alarm clock went off this morning then Pete? Oh yes Yeah this morning he, did he actually remember to set it last evening Ooh Sunday, he was a bit the worse press the button before it How was it, game last night? Terrible No, no He's a bastard Ha what Wolverhampton was, yeah,like He didn't bloody tell me did he he he said he'd been through recently, oh every time I've been through Wolverhampton that ring road's been awful the traffic like Yeah, the Probably gonna wait ten years It was, it was a bastard I think he's, he's moved in cos every morning He does which one you doing? I'd have a trainee Yeah, not it'll be night time On the road Yeah, by the canal bridge? I would think that coming from that way you say and er, there's normally a few spaces this time of day, well up the road there's and I thought Took mine round the corner I've got a B T van normally when I'm working parked underneath Yeah it's car park you know. Yeah, well that's why I get in, you'd find your car right at the back. yeah, Yeah True You're Alan's Alan Yes Oh yes or Ben Well I won't be after today No, that's right After er, er, tomorrow they're all one big staff here They all coming onto yours are they? Yeah, yeah they mentioned you the other day at Eddy just said to him you know, So you're gonna have Tim and the rest of them on your Yeah , it'll be great because they all, cos they all like you don't say but the er, at the joint meeting of course they're all a bit subdued, cos they're coming onto to well what'll happened, cos I've work up there, they're much more gregarious than the bloke down here, so they'll take the stuff out of especially when , so we'll be doing it. Mm There'll be I think there was thirty two people at the meeting but, six or seven people I'll have Alan be like the days of The Yeah All one big happy family under the big and looking at that programme always, only have to be, pretty engaging months and years, just the only job they back, they would and the nineteen ninety five might be what federal just We're doomed I ain't no building them just to get all out and up done, I mean the programme now looks crowded, but when you look at the new programme it's just full, there's nowhere else and no more room in them boxes to write my instead of one every two, three months, there's four and five every month starts something Yes, so what you're worried about the big nineties I'm the lucky, I'd be the lucky I don't know. Mm. only thing we could, prospect for the er, like twenty years service training is alright innit? Cos you can train people to do anything Yeah, but you've got to have people to train Not all the trainings only crap ain't it? you can have a bit of brilliant really are If you walk into something else, it would be brilliant wouldn't it? you're alright aren't you? But erm, I mean the money's you know you'll pay the mortgage on, pay all your debts off and you, once you've got mortgage is gone that's it, you haven't got any have you? Tempting isn't it? It is yeah Yeah The trouble is, with this job I mean we're not trying to and start ourselves up doing something are we? I mean, I'm really looking forward to I mean most of your bloody time within a year I'm getting out you can start doing what you want then, but when you don't have that regular period you don't know how you're gonna react to your own , you've got to and then when you get there, you know, so you got mollycoddle in a way, haven't you, so you know you say lay your money down you're not geared to do anything else, it's cos your attitude I suppose,anything else, if you really had to, er I don't see why it wouldn't Well when you talk to these blokes in a pool room area service manager, what the hell they give you a price over the counter come down from the actual job There's And we're, we are, we're ourselves if you're in a mess then people out there have got virtually no training other than what they've been given Mm Did you say we can change this on the first screen custody? Yeah Yeah Just trying to get away early I found that yesterday when everybody was saying I like playing wouldn't enough but it is good. Maybe Sshh I had and er he was saying like, all the and erm I thought now Bernie? Ha Yeah, erm, I was going to is that erm it was always the same, two jobs down so it was due to go his boss would have then I've been there as well cos he's caused such a stink whether they'll take him or he won't Morning Ton Alright so Sorry Have you got He was another one who sent you to Wolverhampton Yes he was wasn't he? he was yes he was by why's that? Why, cos I got stuck there that's why, it was a bloody awful day if you ask I'd take your time putting those I suppose I told I thought Graham said he'd be first one in here Yeah, always prompt isn't he Graham? Oh yeah but then you've got another week of it How can somebody be saying nothing Don't lie Gary, why would be dad come on because it would have been perhaps the first time I suppose it wouldn't be a Then I now, that'll be a wasted phone call, was it somebody Actually when you have to Yeah Oh don't tell lies You and that's the only actually with er come on you'd better say because I'll have to phone them up and explain It was what the bloody hell was going on? Hello Oh stop it Marie No you mustn't speak to people on the phone Well I've still got to What's that?get down, get down Oh mum Yeah, hold on for a time, I'll be with you in a minute. Here are I'll be with you in a minute, come on it's wet Dad saying da, da Yeah go and put it back Marie Just a minute Oh put it back in, in the water, what's this? She keeps smelling the washing powder Oh Good girl put it back in, see Can you good girl, weeee good girl No don't do that to your towel towel da, da, da No, leave the phone alone, come here No, get Oh dear Are you being a , you leave It's nice and warm, warm Yeah, do you want to go in the water? Yeah Yeah, nice there's a baby look Yeah Yeah nanny nanny water Baby wants to come out Mummy don't do that Hello Hello baby's warm , hey you got a plaster on, said she's got a plaster on his head Yeah yeah, there he is yeah, you can go ok watch her actually because er, she went right back up on these bloody chairs this afternoon, I mean she really cried, oh course I mean she, oh when Catherine come in I mean she'd not long done it, then she nodded off to sleep I said oh they always say you should try, I mean I There you are daddy was patting her back, trying to wake her up all the time Catherine said she'd probably be alright, I mean she woke, she would have been tired anyway, you know what I mean, especially after swimming, the water they gave bath water, it's not like the Oh I have to erm see if you can go actually, erm that's a weekend I'm not sure when it's open for anybody, cos they do ever such a lot of classes, they do scuba diving there as well What's that? You know the erm back packs, Oh yeah said there was that there as well Oh can I do that? ever so dear really dear oh,just leave me one What's that, mummy yeah Go get dad then Oh come on Showed daddy what you're signing up for Look what I signing up I mean it would be nice, I've been reading it this afternoon, it would be lovely Gary Wow Gary you'd be saving up till the end of the days Would you pay the difference, Can I have a that Gary? Got you Did you watch it then Gary? Yeah That's right we watched it Leave the phone, Marie, no Hello oh there's mummy tell her, tell her Gary It's what's it on that for what? done take it, Gary hello yeah the hello no, no, no, no, no, no Mum Don't go upstairs, I don't know why he's called you upstairs for not upstairs, no I don't know love , come on no don't upstairs why you're waiting for your burger yeah Gal Pardon? you say yes please Go back upstairs anyhow the red table you'll have to bring it down now Gary Here we are dad I told, I kept saying to her Come on Gary Can you bring her down Gary? Marie come on here are Gary come on Gary He can't Oh paddy go and eat Gary Gary I don't, I don't know Oh I'm not waiting for you, come over here, no, no Gary Come on, come and sit with mummy Have you got because Mummy mummy, mummy, mummy that's right When does that refill fit that one then? That refill I bought are the ball point or mummy no mummy no it's here are The refill says fibre tip refills Oh, why didn't you say that then? That's what Sally was looking for wasn't it? Won't it fit that then? No, that's why it won't fit I thought that's what you bought that one No, no the one you had That's what I'm saying It was a fibre tip refill that I was trying to get but I didn't buy a fibre tip refill Oh, oh so it'll fit the other one then? Eh? It'll fit that one won't it dad? Why, what, what's this other one, I, I don't know about this other one I don't know what the other one is, The one you showed me no that was the one I tried to buy the refill for which was a fibre tip I thought that is a fibre tip I'm going round in circles here, I know, that's why I bought the refill for, that's what I'm saying I don't know what the other one is, Well, so that will fit it then, that's a fibre refill. No, what I meant was I meant to buy it, I wanted to buy a refill for it, but I ended up not buying the right fibre tip pen for it You've got two of these What did you, what refill did you want? I didn't want a fibre tip one that's then I couldn't get one , it's a ball point one There Now Gary sit down You won't need this one Mum I thought the same as you mummy mm mm mummy mm daddy yes Mummy mummy I know I was yeah nearly stuck your foot up, come on What did she do? Stuck her left up to scratch sit good girl Mummy Mm I expect dad come here, got to oh Marie no good job it wasn't to it. Mind my I can't have come on then be careful of my papers that's right, it's ever such a sharp come on then, ooh no I didn't get Yeah you could have answered it by codes Not yet Who's that? pardon I know, don't scratch it you just make it worse What have you done with his burger? Its not quite ready yet Kick your legs kick your legs Marie, Marie, now come on, no come on cos it's hot in there, here you are No here you are, Where did you get that from? Off that little tube That? yeah Who made the jar? Did you take the ruler and the rubbers upstairs as well? No Why did you take the jar upstairs? Cos I wanted to oh dear No, no We're gonna find out who his true friends are What if had a little visit from Mr thing, whatever his name is, he, sounding you out was he? About what? About the course No the other chappie who's on the course next week Oh that, that yeah he said he's gonna be out He was being very human today He was wasn't he? He was being er then saying that he's lost his sit down job doing nothing wrong Not How long has he been in there doing nothing? I mean ever since I've been coming down, ever since I've been coming down here, he's been in there so he says got away with it for ten years Yeah, they can do I'm too young, I, I got a van him and Nigel got a van now Taken over from Dave I know him Are they? Well Dave, Dave and Bob There, putting in all their time Yeah, Dave So That's put them all off down at one time didn't they? So what he did, he got So they get the faults and then that, in that area rather than having to move out the way anybody else they'd get kicked out wouldn't they? Yeah Yeah It's too it's just what he wanted we didn't have Just what he wanted and they're building up a petition so he's now got a office he's had he's had three offices but erm Jim's knocked him down to two. He's what? He looks alright at the minute I mean they go on about him, but he looks after Yeah, the truth The thing please everybody in the car everybody's hey you are That's usually his night out Oh is he? they couldn't have got him, you'll get him, you'll get him . Say there was a big cheer when he crashed his car on the strike ,crashed his car on the strike, did you hear about that? No. I don't know whether he was on a call out, going towards the crashed his car, he'd got Bet he Go on lads Ooh Oh god the Let us do a couple of hours and then they've had enough, sorry Ton, Yes, there was a rumour that he was on a Policy H two and the matters which are outstanding from our discussion yesterday are those which relate to the criteria and also the question of whether the policy should include specific guidance on the location of the new settlement. However before we embark on that, there are two outstanding matters which were raised yesterday a and I'd just like to know how far erm progress has been made in dealing with those and one was the erm definition as far as it can be made of what is meant by the Greater York area. And also the compilation of the commitments etcetera by the Greater York er ag again related to the Greater York area. Peter , North Yorkshire, on the former, Greater York, I think er I did undertake to consult with the county surveyor on the relationship er journey to work er and commuting around Greater York and that work is is in hand this morning. I doubt whether it will appear erm by by one o'clock. But er it will be in, it is being pursued. Thank you very much. On the second erm erm issue the commitments in Greater York, erm Mr has has made good progress erm on this erm and he's been had discussions this morning with er district colleagues and hopefully we we are nearly there on that one. Will that be ready by the end of the morning or are we looking at Tuesday morning for that? Hopefully by the end of the morning, we'll do our best for the end of the morning. Now we we we want to embark on a discussion of er matters C and D under issues. But before we do that, er and you're having given to you a piece of paper, headed possible scenarios for panel reporting on the new settlement. Erm a very minor point, when you get it, those who have got it already, would you just draw a line from the top line which says discussed criteria, down to the box which says evaluate sectors around York etcetera. Now by way of introduction to this, we had some deep thinking last night after we'd concluded our discussion, and I have to preface what I'm going to say, certainly for Mr 's benefit that it's the if question, the if question. Erm as we see it, there are en two possible courses on the new settlement that in fact you end up if you look at the right hand side of that sheet of paper, with four possible answers. But if I start with A. If if it is considered that a new settlement is required to meet the housing provision in Greater York, then the first question that has to be asked is, is the criteria approach alone acceptable. If the answer to that is yes, then we proceed to discuss the criteria and the panel could proceed to report accordingly on those. If the answer is no, and here this is linked to the question of should the policy include specific guidance for the location of the settlement, and by specific guidance, it implies, should it be allocated to a particular district, then in order to do that, the panel feel that we would have to be in a position of having sufficient information to make an objective and logical decision on that. And that may well entail during the discussion on D an evaluation around York to decide which maybe the appropriate sectors of of app which is the appropriate host authority. If we find we have enough information, to proceed it's all ifs I know. But if we find we have enough information to proceed to make a positive recommendation, on the new settlement and the host district for that, then we would report accordingly. If we find or feel that we haven't got sufficient information to make a proper recommendation as seems likely than again we will report accordingly but there are implications obviously on that. And then finally, the other if is, if we find that the new settlement is not required then we report accordingly. Does anybody wish to respond to that? Have we missed any possible scenarios out I wonder. Mr . Erm Roy , House Builders Federation. I I I just wonder what the opposition would think if you decided that the criteria approach alone was not acceptable and you equally decided you hadn't enough information to specify a location, where would that leave you? Or where would it leave anybody else. The ob the obvious answer to that would be we'd not be in a position to make the proper recommendation in favour of I I suspect. And that would be then a matter for the county to determine how they would proceed from that point. We would of course fully report all of our reasoning at both the yes and no stages of this decision tree. If we had found good reason to say no, to the first question, there are implications for how we say no to the second question. Peter Peter , North Yorkshire. Er I'm still trying to digest the er implications of er these various er flows but just to comment perhaps at this stage on the possibility or otherwise of er defining a er a district location. Erm I would have thought and it's a personal immediate reaction at this stage, it would be difficult for you to come to a conclusion on the appropriate district location. Erm you haven't had the the figures of the local authorities erm on that or for that matter the public at large which I think is important. Erm which we think would be very important as part of the debate. And perhaps secondly erm there is not a body of information which has been submitted to er this examination public which advises you in detail on the various issues that we think need to be addressed leading to the erm proposal occasions and I would have thought it would have been difficult for the panel to come to a a conclusion but I may be wrong on that. Thank you. I was hoping that we could actually tease out as part of the discussion, whether there is erm a positive way forward if if we if you are minded if we are minded to recommend the new settlement, then I would hope we would tease out during the course of this discussion erm the preferred or a preferred host authority for this new settlement. Peter , North Yorkshire. Well I would be in some difficulty there sir because erm I have clearly this is a very important and sensitive er issue, one which involves erm one which would involve erm consideration by my members of the various issues, erm I have no authority to express a detailed view on a ma on a matter of principle, or indeed a general view as to wh as to which is the er the best location. Because I don't know. Because I don't know what is the er what is the best location. We are of course conscious that of the position held by the County Council and by the district councils. Indeed we heard more than once I think yesterday, the district councils, they have no . However, I'm sure everyone around the table will be conscious that one of the things the panel has a duty to do is to consider what is in the light of national guidance. And national guidance does contain some fairly specific indicators of what is expected to be structure plans. The other point on that is that the draft matters for the E I P including matter two D have been known to everyone for some considerable time. The D O E objection has been known to everyone for some considerable time and their statement is quite explicit in what it says in relation to the matter of one D. There have also been several representations from those sitting on my left hand side, about the possible answers to question one D in the affirmative. All that evidence is before the panel, we have a duty to report upon it. It may be fortuitous that if we spend this morning discussing criteria, there'll then be a gap of one and a half working days for those who don't have to travel far to consider possible answers to the second stream of the dialogue. In other words, a no to the first question. I think We have not made . But as with every planning inquiry, hearing or whatever, we need not to avoid closing the discussion before we have all the information we need to reach a decision whichever way we decide to reach it. I think just to amplify that point, if you look at the question which is set down under two two D. It's perfectly clear, should the policy include specific guidance on the location of the new settlement. If the answer to that is yes, then how do we go about providing that advice. Mr ? Richard of . Erm I must say I share Peter 's view here that the er location of the new settlement, whether in general terms or by district, has not been through the public consultation process. And I don't see how the structure plan er i the way it's been progressed so far, can determine any one of those general locational criteria. All the while there hasn't been a public consultation input. And I it's a difficult question and one I'm not so sure has an answer er but I don't feel that one can be in anyway specific about, the location of the new settlement certainly by district, cos the exercise hasn't been done. It would of course be necessary if the County Council well first of all, our report will as you know be to the County Council. It would be for them to decide what to do with our report. And of course it is open to them to take a contrary view to any conclusion reached on any matter by the panel. However if as a consequence, of a panel recommendation or of their decision on a panel recommendation, the County Council decide to modify the deposited structure plan, there would of course at that stage have to be a public planning enquiry. It may I I appreciate Mr , that that is a long way away or could be a long way away from the sort of public consultation which one . It would take place in a different context, nevertheless there would be that opportunity and no doubt the adequacy of a public consultation exercise at the proposed modification stage would be a matter for the County Council themselves to decide. Y er Richard of . I think that is indeed correct. I was a little surprised to hear yesterday the views of Mr about the need for this plan to identify the location or the general location of the new settlement. Er that is not a consistent theme within the D O E strategy. One only has to look at the Shropshire structure plan in which I was involved last year, and the Department of the Environment in that case had allowed the facility for new settlement without locational criteria. So it it would not be inconsistent er for a similar situation to apply here. That would probably take you to your er first scenario, if there's to be a new settlement, that the criteria approach alone is acceptable. That is certainly the approach the department took in Shropshire. And I found it a little strange they were suggesting that an alternative approach may be suitable here, particularly when th the evidence hasn't been put forw or gone through the public consultation process. Do you wish to comment on that Mr ? Thank you. D O E. Yes sir, er ever since P P G three was revised at the beginning of last year, I believe that the department has been moving steadily in the direction that indicated but certainly my brief here is quite specific. The department expects a general location for the new settlement to be included in the approved plan. What I said to you yesterday, I hinted that there were difficulties we don't know how they are to be resolved. . We believe that for a structure plan to go forward now in the present state of policy guidance, bearing in mind that's on the basis of P P G twelve and with P P G thirteen lying in the wings. We believe that for any structure plan to conform with a str with a new settlement proposal without specifying the general location, would be . We've tried to persuade the planning authorities in Greater York area, for a considerable period of time to try to bring about a situation where to this E I P with specific proposals, but for good sound local reasons, that has not been possible. we concede on the basis of the exercises that have been discussed so far, I think you will find it very difficult to make a firm recommendation in favour of a specific location., albeit on a district basis. I think you'll find it very difficult to do. And maybe at the end of the day, the County Council will have to come to a conclusion, after you've made your general recommendations, with or without a location maybe th they will decide that having gone through a consultation exercise, they're only course is to modify the proposals which would then have to be the subject of another E I P. Now I hope that doesn't r ring alarm bells. Certainly that would be o o one scenario which I think the county will have to contemplate. Mr ? Peter , er North Yorkshire. Can I just pick up a a couple of points please. First of all in response to to Miss . I I accept that er the government guidance as Miss has suggested and reinforced by Mr does suggest a policy is that there should be that er increased level er of detail erm in the structure plan. I think the the position of the County Council is twofold. First of all, we feel that a step by step approach whereby we move from options to preferred option to a formal debate e on the principle erm of erm of of the strategy. Er that's basically I think a an approach which the County Counci er which the public at large has er has found acceptable. Er we would find it difficult to justify public concern about a specific location er in advance of a decision erm the principle so we would prefer er a step by step approach er which reflects the special circumstances er of Greater York, and I think Greater York is a special circumstance if only because of the number of authorities erm er thus far involved. Secondly I think we would be looking to pursue erm erm progress towards a preferred general location as a matter er of priority. And in fact if you look at the the comments i i the blue book, erm on page thirty seven of the D O E, they have suggested as Mr has just confirmed, that we really ought to have made progress on that before there is an approved any move towards approving the alteration. That is what we intend to do and we intend to do it on the basis of the criteria erm that we have set out. Now I in terms of the fine letter of P P G twelve erm erm er that is not entirely consistent, but looking at the special circumstances of Greater York, erm erm and the long time you've spent on this, trying to reassure the public that we will do this properly, we think it's the best way to proceed. Thank you. Er Mr Michael . I and others' main objections both the draft plan and the deposit plan, is there should be a s a general location in H in H two. This is not a new matter, this is a matter on which the County Council could have directed their mind to for several years. I like I'm sure others, once the issues were published for the E I P, took advice from the Home Secretary and were simply advised that the location that that we should give evidence on locational matters to the E I P and that is what we have done. And we have given you detailed evidence. That was available to the County Council to do so. The County Council themselves have in fact produced a paper er which I have produced in my in my appendices which specifically identifies a preferred location for the new settlement. Admittedly that was not accepted by the Greater York authorities working party, but it is there for you, it is a base of technical information for you to use in your decision. In terms of what would happen if this if you felt unable well if there was not a general location specified in the structure plan, then there are two two two ways forward. One that that the decision will be taken by the Greater York au authorities outside the development plan system. That would clearly be completely contrary to the plan led approach which is urged by government in these matters. It would inherently end up a large enquiry some somewhere along the line, which would frustrate the whole purpose of of the planning system. Cos it it would mean the decision would be taken by the Secretary of State and not by the local authorities. Alternatively, the step by step approach urged by Mr , appears to be totally illogical. Cos the if there is to be a proposal modification, that must inevitably be the subject of another examination in public. So we are basically wasting another twelve to eighteen months, sitting around waiting for a decision on the the new settlement. It'll mean a third hiatus making decisions on where development should go in Greater York. Thank you. Thank you. I I take your point that yes you have submitted er a a proposal as have other parties er to the discussion. From our point of view we're not in the position and it would be totally wrong of us actually to try in public to to deal with those or to come to a specific conclusion about any particular proposal. I mean that has to be dealt with through the development control processes. Erm but nevertheless, that And local planning yes. Thanks for reminding me. Er nevertheless, under P P G guidance, erm advice, the new settlement is a strategic issue and therefore it's right and proper to think about it and look at look at it and try to determine whether it is possible to give guidance on a district location through this through through through this debate. Michael Michael . I I fully accept e I I hope my evidence in fact wasn't directed at our proposal but in terms of the erm of the general guidance given by the Department of the Environment that there should be a general location specified by district and by locational features such as etcetera. We feel we've given you enough evidence sir that you can come to a reasoned decision. We we think and I think that that the inexorable logic is towards the North East Ryedale districts of North east of York. So I'm I'm sure we'll go through that in detail later on today. But I feel you have enough evidence in front of you to come to that conclusion. Chairman, just a very brief point if I may. Peter , North Yorkshire. Mr made reference to the County Council considering a preferment. The County Council has never at any time considered a paper or come to a conclusion erm on the preferred general location for the new settlement. I wish to underline that fully. Mr . Paul ,planning. I wonder if we could just consider the question of what is meant by the term general location. Erm are we agreed er wi with Mr I address this question really to Mr that this really means identification of a district within which the new settlement should be located. Or is the Department of the En Environment looking for something a more specific area than a district? Mr . , D O E. Yes sir, the answer to that is that yes we are looking for something more specific. Not site specific but sufficient locational detail to make it that there're not rival schemes . Erm we've heard from Selby that they could they could provide possible sites for more than one scheme. I believe it's the role of the structure plan to specify the general location in such a way that unless those schemes were very close together, in terms of a site specific nature, that wouldn't be left to the local plan process. Yes. We did think about this point last night. We tended towards a view that when there is a possibility that one part of a district might meet the criteria, but another part of the same district would either be contrary to or prejudice the objectives of the criteria, we might need to specify which part of the district we meant. Perhaps by reference to rivers. quick look at the map, the River Ouse conveniently chops Selby district in roughly half, and that there might well be considerations which for the sake of was not okay. Equally there might be considerations the other half was okay. And that was the sort of level of detail to which we thought we might need to go in those districts where it is demonstrated to us,of the district do need to be considered differently. I that is something which we hope will emerge when we talk about the relevant criteria. Obviously as the chairman has emphasised, we don't know which of these course we're going down, we therefor need during the course of the examination, to go down all. And it seems to us I mean we've talked about the different principles, the ne sensible next step is to talk about the criteria. Can I just confirm with you Mr , that what I've described in terms of geographical location, is getting somewhere near to meeting his objective. Mr Sorry Mr D O E. Fine as far as it went we would expect during this er proposal the nature of the new settlement to be specific particularly in relation to the transport of the structure. And we'll be looking for some general indication as to a location in a particular transport corridor. Clearly you're unlikely to be recommending somewhere that is not transport in the structure but you'll believe it's important to specify which one. If we get to that point. Mr Yes sir, very briefly er first of all can I endorse Michael 's first set of comments, I agree with what he said entirely, I think it is incumbent upon the E I P and on the stage that the county have reached with your such good advice in your report, to come to bring this situation together towards the strategic decision. I would endorse what Ken has said, I certainly am of the view there are overriding reasons which I'll come to in a moment for putting forward a general location, I had seen that as a central location which may or may not span more than one district. The criteria which we'll come on to debate, there is one criteria in there which I say overrides or is overriding in weight, and that is number eleven, to be consistent with regional and sub-regional policies. There are very significant sub-regional policies cross border migration which have existed for many many years. Those policies in my view, and I put it this strongly, rule out certain sectors for consideration. Mr Er yeah thank you sir. Terry , Selby District. Erm can I throw another spanner in the works er sir. Cos what we have heard so far this morning is certainly placing me in all of the local authority. Er as you've already heard, the Greater York authority have cooperated for a number of years in bringing forward new settlement proposals but erm I have to say that I I do agree it would be helpful if the panel were able to make a strategic recommendation in favour of one particular local authority. My difficulty is as as you've already heard I've got no mandate to speak about particular locations or even sectors within Selby District although clearly I do have a mandate as I already have said to come along and say that we feel Selby District is an appropriate location. Erm I had rather thought that that you had been given erm sufficient information already to perhaps make a straightforward simple strategic choice between between districts. Erm if if I can elaborate on on that a a little further. Erm Right okay. Sorry Mr , can can we can we leave that for later on when we talk about . Okay what we'll just do just just a brief . It seems to me that there there are two ways forward that are that are being pursued in in in other areas. One one approach that we've already heard is is in policy. Erm which again wouldn't trouble Selby district, because we're we're committed to a new settlement . The alternative approach is the one that Mr in terms of specifying particular strategic locations. the reasons I said I I I I could go along with that approach as well. Thank you. Mr . Thank you, Roy , House Builders' Federation. Mr raised the possibility of a second E I P. I would regard that as the nightmare scenario. We have erm there have been certain decisions made over time which has got us to this position and whether erm you agree or anyone agrees or not the the the right next step is to specify a location, nevertheless it's embodied in what's gone on so far, a series of steps towards making the decision. In my view, a second E I P would be a backward step. We've already expressed concern in other arenas about the way in which the greenbelt planning this structure. We found certain difficulty with the with the with the logic of that. But nevertheless we've tackled that and come to deal with it. But in a situation where we were left with the second E I P and we had districts preparing district wide plans and as Mr in his submission has said, he intends to remove the present article fourteen, direction, we are in real chaos. I would urge the panel to make a decision which enables us to go down a road of logical decision making to get the issue resolved one way or the other. If not we'll be in limbo land for a long time. It suits neither the development industry, nor would I suggest it suits the public to be left in limbo land for a considerable time. Thank you that's very helpful Mr . Mr Ned , Leeds City Council. As the panel knows, chair Leeds itself is in the throes of producing its own strategic plan. The more certainty they can have from this enquiry, the better for us in making our own plans. So we would certainly vote in favour of a specified area the terms that Mr 's given. An the sooner, the better. Having given you food for thought, I'd like to move on to a discussion of the criteria and can I say right now that I think it would be right and proper to limit our discussion this morning to the criteria. What I would like to do is to come back on Monday sorry Tuesday, Tuesday, Tuesday. To look at possible locations and I would hope and expect to have a positive contribution from the district council representatives on that, and the county. And finally can I reemphasise that we have not come to any conclusion as to which road we shall go down on this one. But i I did feel it was airing those possible scenarios to get a reaction and I think the forty minutes we've had discussing that have been extremely valuable as far as we're concerned. Now can we move to a discussion on the criteria and I'll ask Mr to open on that. Thank you chairman I will be brief, Peter Davies North Yorkshire. Er I will be brief, I really want to cover two things er in my introduction. First of all the principle erm of the criteria and secondly the detail erm of the the content er of the criteria. As far as the principle is concerned I just need to say two things. Er first of all er P P G three and the question asked by the D O E as well that it's sufficient justification to go further than the guidance det out in paragraph thirty three er of P P G I think it is paragraph thirty three of P P G Yes. er three. I think there was a feeling yesterday, certainly it's it's our view that what that paragraph in P P G three does is to set the basic ground rules. The basic ground rules that determine whether a new settlement concept does as I would put it get into the starting gate. I think there's a need or the County Council considered there's a need for certainly in the Greater York context, for further guidance to be given to fairly erm assess where the new settlement location er should be. We think it would be a sad day if local plans and structure plans were purely a restatement er of P P G three. The purpose of the planning system I think is to develop government guidance er and therefore we think there's a need for something further than P P G three. Secondly, er we think there's a need for a consistent overview of York, a consistent view of the issues and the matters that need to be assessed erm right across Greater York. We've already heard that Greater York os a very complex area with many interrelationships. I think there's a need to assess those relationships and those factors evenly and fairly across Greater York and if nothing else I think we owe that to the public er of Greater York. And indeed we did give them an an undertaking er that that would be done. That's all I want to say on the principle erm of the criteria, as far as the detailed content erm er is concerned I suspect we could talk all day about whether social should replace affordable in one of the criteria, or whether the full stop is in the right place er in another one. E we largely are perfectly happy to leave that sir t to the panel, having considered the views on the very detailed comments on the criteria. Other than that I want to make just three comments on three important issues which have been raised. First of all is criteria, criterion. One that the new settlement should avoid er the greenbelt. That I think is absolutely er fundamental erm to the issue, and because of the way the practically the the greenbelt local plan has been defined, that means it has to be practically outside the outer boundary of the greenbelt. Secondly, the issue of eight rather than ten miles. The county council very early on, in fact the Greater York authority, this is criterion three. Did in fact with the Greater York districts initially take a view that it ought to be eight miles. Subsequent reflection and erm consideration of various comments that we that were received I think rightly persuaded the County Council and the district councils that in order to ensure erm a proper search and a proper consideration of all the factors, er that eight miles should be extended er to ten miles. And I think that that is probably the appropriate ground rule erm all that. And then the other issue I think is criterion twelve, erm avoid conflict with mineral and non-mineral development. Again I think that that is er an important consideration in Greater York. That is not to say that that necessarily will discount any area, but in erm reflection of paragraph thirty one of M P G one, I think it is important that that sort of issue erm er is included. So that's all I think I want to say chairman. Er time is progressing erm and obviously I would be interested to hear the debate. Thank you Mr . Well could I have comments on the principle or principles of er by using criteria and then I'd like to go through the individual criteria or individual criterion one by one. Can I say obviously we have our own comments about these. Erm but to come back to the first criterion which says avoid the greenbelt, I know exactly what you mean when you say avoid the greenbelt, but if in the context of the wording before that where it says to be located beyond the outer boundary of the York greenbelt, do you need to have criterion one? Or is there another greenbelt which may also be er affected by a new settlement proposal? I think erm as far as the green belt is policy H two in terms of its general presumption does direct erm erm the new settlement beyond the outer boundary of the greenbelt. Mm. Erm the criterion one that has been avoi has been described as a avoid the greenbelt to reflect the possibility or the theoretical possibility that er a new settlement could be er provided shall we say erm erm n on the inner edge of the greenbelt, if the scenario arose that the final definition of the York greenbelt did allow for that possibility to emerge. I think it's very unlikely but I think it described as one avoid the greenbelt, to be seen to be er encompassing all possibilities. Yeah. Sorry I I have to cut across my advice to everybody else there. It does strike me though as a that A that one of the basic points is that if this is going in as structure plan guidance then we have to be satisfied that these are in fact criteria which can operate at the strategic level. Er and the other point which e you might like to comment is are they in effect set out in any order of precedence. A descending order or pri importance f in in terms of the strategic thinking. Taking Peter , North Yorkshire. Taking the second point first, no there is no implied priority erm accorded to any of the criteria erm reflected in the order in which they are set out. I think it is certainly the members er input is required to balance and weight perhaps individual criteria when they have a body er of information before them, but certainly er there is no intention to er er to er weight the criteria or to imply that er one is er more or less important than twelve. I think it would be very helpful if participants could give us their views Mm. as to whether there should be any order of priority. I think it would also be helpful to have participants reactions to the nature of the criteria. Mm. Are they about what the new settlement should be like, if so is that an appropriate consideration for the structure plan. As opposed to are they about where the new settlement should be generally located? Which I know Mr will tell us is a matter for the structure plan. So I think there are a number of questions about the principle about the nature of criteria, what would be appropriate in a structure plan, what would not be appropriate in a structure plan as well as, would it be helpful, unhelpful, impossible to have some order of priority. Mr and and and then Mr , D O E. Er can I just respond briefly to Mr 's first point to to confirm that we've absolutely no objection to a more detailed set of criteria being included in the plan than is contained in P P G three. Er we wouldn't want the plan to be inhibited in that way. I if I can just remind participants of what we said in our original objection, that further justification will be required to demonstrate that the level of detail proposed in the deposited policy H two is not incompatible with P P G three and does not involve over detailed or unduly restrictive policy guidance. Mm. Now we would expect that justification to emerge from this examination and in due course to be embodied in the er lower case script for the alteration itself. But er I just wanted to confirm that we've no objection to more detailed set of criteria being included. Can I Pro provided they're relevant at this level. Quite so sir. Did you say, included in the lower case. Er , D O E. Er as you know er Miss er w the structure plan highlights the policies in upper case and the reason justification is provided in lower case script. Yes I do but are y I'm sorry I'm not clear as to whether you are suggesting that there should be policy upper case criteria and some non policy lower case criteria. Er , D O E. Er er simply er that the various upper case items which are listed one to twelve, are backed up in lower case script. Mm. And as we see it, that lower case script is not quite good enough to justify what's there at the moment. We would expect that to be amplified after this examination. I understand thank you. Yeah. Yes. Thank you. Mr ? Paul ,planning partnership. Am I right in erm my belief that in fact the the final version of policy H two erm need not and should not include a list of criteria other than those set out in P P G two paragraph thirty three. Because these criteria it seems to me are a means to an end, for us to decide upon an appropriate general location. Having determined that general location, I believe it should probably be at a district level but clearly there is a view from others that it needs to be a smaller area that that. It seems to me that it is then a matter for the local plan to erm promote or decide erm a more de probably more detailed list of lo c locational criteria, and then the local planning authority considers erm the alternative locations following public consultations and possibly invite erm schemes at that stage. So it seems to me if we can agree on what criteria might be appropriate to look at the location of the new settlement on a strategic level, the final version of H two will in fact probably be much shorter, more concise er than the policy H two that we have at the moment. Er and that's I think the basis of the erm strategy I've set out in my statement to the examination in public. The other difficulty I have is with some of these criteria and their use at a strategic level. Because it seems to me, many of them actually require a site specific evaluation or an area specific evaluation in quite detailed terms to be able to come to any sensible conclusion. For example, the question of minerals which Mr has erm raised. I think points to this erm issue erm very clearly. In the paper which erm was considered by the Greater York authorities in January nineteen ninety two, on the possible location of a new settlement, all of Selby District was ruled out of consideration erm for a new settlement because it was erm within part of the district is within the Selby coalfield. Now that flies in the face of erm I think the er the real position on the ground, which is that a development could take place within that district, even where areas have not yet been mined, without any adverse impact on the either the coalfield or the new settlement. And yet on that one issue, taken on its own, Selby District is ruled out. And there are others, agricultural land, again is a very site specific evaluation I think from this si erm generally. We recognize that any new settlement site er in the area around Greater York is likely to involve the loss of some better quality agricu har er agricultural land. And it seems to me that the use of these therefore at strategic level, many of them can only really be used if you're prepared to make erm huge assumptions or huge leaps of the imagination. And I in I invite I suppose the County Council really to respond to this issue of how they would intend erm indeed the districts, how they would intend to use these criteria certainly in a more rational and erm intellectually rigorous way than the sort of erm statements that were included in their January nineteen ninety two report. Do you want to come back on that Mr or do you want to wait a few moments? Yes. Mr Michael , Hambleton District Council. To come back on something that Mr said and perhaps take it a stage further. Mr said that erm the D O E would have no objection to more detailed criteria in the structure plan policy erm than erm included in paragraph thirty three of P P G three. I would perhaps add that erm the structure plan policy shouldn't exclude criteria that er are in P P G three. And I would erm particularly d draw your attention to criteria two there that erm the proposal should have district council support which I think is an important point of principle. And indeed if the panel are minded to recommend erm a criteria based policy of this nature, we would recommend the inclusion of this important point of principle. Mr Tony ,. I think there is a very real need for strategic guidance to be given by appropriate criteria being included in policy H two. However in my written statement, I have suggested that certain of the criteria are going to be more appropriate to a local plan rather than to a structure plan. My general comment with regard to the criterion number four is that more emphasis could be made upon the need to reduce car dependency Yeah yeah. and alternative transport modes being promoted in addition to rail. Also I think that in criteria nine, that reference should be made to unacceptable coalescence being avoided. But my principle comment this morning is with regard generally to all criteria and with particular reference to criterion one, avoiding the greenbelt. Mm. Now the planning system in this country, rightly gives the decision maker considerable discretion in exercising judgement regarding planning application, allowing all material considerations to be taken into account, and appropriate weighting given. However, policies that use unqualified phrases such as, will be or should only be, do not allow scope for all ma material considerations to be taken into account. Accordingly P P G three on paragraph thirty three states that a new settlement should normally only be contemplated where certain criteria are satisfied, including avoidance of the greenbelt. This flexibility of approach is repeated in P P G four, paragraph sixteen, where it states that advice on greenbelts where industrial and commercial development is not normally be appropriate, is provided in P P G two. Again in the recently published P P G six, paragraph forty six, it states that regional shopping centres may well have a role to play but usually only where the loss of greenbelt can be justified by the economic and social benefits of the scheme. P P G two clearly states that the government attaches great importance to greenbelts. and in paragraph twelve, sets out the general presumption against in appropriate development within them. However in paragraph thirteen, it does accept that in very special circumstances, exceptions can be made. While stating in paragraph fourteen that development plans should make no reference to the possibility of allowing other development in exceptional circumstances, nowhere in the P P G does it suggest that the authority should exclude the possibility that very special circumstances could justify an exception to be made. However policy H two as drafted, seeks to deprive the decision maker of the ability to consider all material considerations, by the unqualified use of the words will be required to and applies this to all twelve criteria without allowing discretion to be taken into account of any special circumstances that might present to justify exceptional development. Accordingly, the guidance given in P P G paragraph three should be followed by including the word normally in the policy requirement and the requirement for the new settlement to be beyond the outer edge of the York greenbelt so as to avoid the greenbelt, with then form part of the locational criteria one. This will also make H two consistent with the existing greenbelt development control policies E nine and E ten of the approved county structure plan which are still being retained and also the proposed open countryside policy E E two, all of which use the qualification, normally. Now my submission is not intended to be representation that the new settlement should be in the greenbelt and great weight must still be given to it's protection. However, no opportunity that otherwise complies with the locational criteria should be disregarded in seeking the best location for a new settlement that serves the needs of the greater York area. An area that was considered by the secretary of state as being five to seven miles of York City centre and is almost entirely within the greenbelt. Perhaps as a final word, I might be per better to echo the chief planning inspector Stephen who at this year's T C P summer school, said, Neither statute or policy rule out the practical application of common sense in unusual or exceptional circumstances. Thank you sir. Thank you. Mr ? Sir I I agree with the comments that Mr just made that basically policy H two in its present form has two functions. One is that of refining the area of search for the new settlement and secondly, more detailed erm criteria for the local plan stage. I think once you've refined the area of search and I think I agree with Mr on this, there are two or three key criteria. Namely if you if you take first of all the staring point that the new settlement should have good access to primary network, you immediately limit the area of search to the radial routes out of York. If you then take the point that it's beyond the greenbelt, again you've limited the area of search and if we take the point that Mr I think put across so well that it's consistent with sub-regional policy, you already immediately then rule out that part of the erm area round Greater York that would have greatest impact on the Leeds Conurbation. The other criteria just simply ones that common to an an enabling erm that we see everyday of of the week in in other structure plans. But because of the special circumstances of York we've got to first define and refine the area of search to a specific corridor and then the other locational criteria are just a guidance, first we take the proposals forward to the local plan stage. Thank you. Okay. Mr then Mr . Mr to round up and then we have coffee. Er David , York City Council. Just a very brief statement sir to er make it clear as was stated in my evidence I support the comment made by Mr , from Hambleton that the criteria based policy should include the criteria as required by P P G three to indicate the requirements support of the District Council. Thank you. Mr ? Michael . I I tend to agree that the criteria tend to fall into two sorts. Er one being descriptive in terms of describing the end product and I don't think that's very helpful to a structure plan, I think that is a matter that can be left to to the local plan. And that that overwhelmingly is of course erm criterion ten. Now I also agree that these criteria are not of equal importance and I certainly would put the greatest weight on criterion one which is to avoid the greenbelt in fact I think it's so important that it shouldn't be a criterion but it should be actually be within the preamble as it is now. So that it's not a matter which is weight to balance. In my professional view, cos if the new settlement has to be in is ch is i has to be within the greenbelt then it's better to go for peripheral development rather than have a new settlement in the first place. Erm in t the second most important criterion I would have thought is that it needs to be on a public transport corridor. And that again is emphasised by P P three and it goes back to the erm the o the object of sustainability and reducing C O two emissions. The the third and I think very important criterion is the need to avoid is the need to comply with sub-regional planning objectives. And obviously the new settlement is a very important sub-regional er planning proposal, and it must comply with the overwhelming run of sub-regional planning policy which is to avoid doing anything which would erm undermine the regeneration of West Yorkshire. Now I think that is important enough to be specified in the policy in as a criterion in the policy itself. The other criteria I I I I tend to agree with are matters which are capable of being weighing and balancing against each other and they are not overriding, but I think those three matter which I specified are overriding and would rule out any location. Thank you. don't comply with. Mr . Yeah, I think just my only summing up comment would really be in response to perhaps Mr m Mr 's erm request for erm perhaps elaboration as to how we would use these criteria. I think I'd start off by saying that it's probably and likely to f that you could find in the Greater York area, between six and ten miles from the city centre, erm one location which met every one of the twelve criteria, one hundred percent. Erm let me give you an example. Mr and Mr have er laid great stress on the issue of sub-regional guidance erm and the implication that they would be happy with a new settlement location shall we say in the south west erm of the of the Greater York er area. Now it may well be that er that may well be the the position in the south west in in respect of of of that particular criteria, but we would need to see, er how a location in that area, met the other eleven criteria. And even looking at that one, erm erm the south west location, one would have to say that the increased accessibility erm which will shortly be afforded by the dualling of the northern section erm of the York outer relief road, er would increase the accessibility of areas to the north east of erm er of Greater York er to West Yorkshire. And I think that quite clearly proves that what you need to do is a detailed evaluation of all these criteria, all of them which reflect as a appropriate strategic guidance, to come er er to a balanced view. And it's not going to be difficult and at the end of the day, someone is going to have to I suspect, and it would have to be members initially erm who would do that, as far as we see it. Would have possibly to weight some of the criteria. That this is more important issue er er than that. That is the way the planning system operates, erm and I would have thought that the Greater York experience, erm does perhaps suggest that there may be some look at erm on the question of the need for sub district guidance. I I I'll go on no further than that. Thank you. Can I can I say that I after coffee I'd like to go through each of these criteria and try to distinguish those which are relevant at structure plan level and those which may be more applicable down at the district local plan level. And also I'd welcome comments er we've had one from er Mr that whether there are any things which you think ought to be added as well as taken away. Can we reconvene at er twenty past eleven please. Can we er now embark on this assessment or analysis of the relevance of the criteria? Bearing in mind that er we'd like to try and distinguish those which would fall within a structure plan umbrella and those which would be more applicable possibly at local plan level. And also I'd like an indication as we go through of the relative weights that you might want to give to individual criterion. Can er take Mr Sorry Mr It's alright ah. So do we want to take the preamble and then and go through one by one. Mr I'm very sorry chairman, er Mr n and I were checking er a point in response to a question that was asked to me during the break. Can you could just ask er again, I missed the Ah well I said we we'd like to embark on this assessment of the relevance Yeah. of the criteria and try to allocate those which would fall under the structure plan umbrella, those which would be more applicable at local plan level and added to that, give some form of weighting. Mm. To each of those. I really don't want to make any introductory remarks to that. Erm I think the criteria generally reflect appropriate strategic guidance but I'd be very interested to hear the contributions round the table. Right well we we go straight to number one which is proposals will be required to avoid the greenbelt. Mr did you want to speak on that? Whip . On the general point of differentiating criteria between strategic and local, I think that one ought to bear in mind that some have importance in both connections and particularly I would draw attention to the perhaps overriding points made in paragraph thirty three of P P G three, regarding the avoidance of unacceptable coalescence and positive environmental improvements. Those in particular have connotations in both ways, for example in the sc the strategic level, er they might result in a whole sector being excluded from consideration. Yes I fully accept that some of these are relevant at each level. Erm and I think we could quite happily define which those are. Does anybody dissent from the first criterion. Apart from my earlier comment that I felt it might be slightly otiose in the fact that you've suggested within the preamble that a new settlement should be located beyond the outer boundary and I did raise the question of whether there was another greenbelt which may come into play. Erm well the only other greenbelt Peter , North Yorkshire, chairman. The only greenbelt erm er in North Yorkshire er is the is is the West Yorkshire statutory greenbelt in the Western part er of Selby District Council, but the area of land the area of search that we have defined as about er ten miles would not take in any er would not be of relevance to the West Yorkshire greenbelt. No. So do you d do people think that criterion one is essential either at structure plan or l and local plan level? Mr ? Council. I I'd like to see it retained chair because criterion three says generally within ten miles of York and er I'm sure somebody would er argue that well that's only a general rule still acceptable Well that we haven't got there yet we haven't got there yet. Well right er okay but erm supposing it was retained as it is, I'd certainly like to see criterion one retained in the list. Yes. Is the reference in the preamble to the policy, beyond the outer boundary of the York greenbelt in itself not enough? Dave , Leeds City Council. Sorry chair my comments were in relation to the West Yorkshire greenbelt of course. Avoiding the West Yorkshire greenbelt. Yes. Yes. Almost a double negative isn't it. But well can we move on to two and I must confess erm I'm not quite clear what is meant by this one. Perhaps I could point up some of the concerns about c the second criterion. Does all refer to timescale, size, land use or what? Peter , North Yorkshire. I think generally we think that that that it would refer to er to all three. I think the preamble the the the explanary explanatory text er with little two er indicates that really we are trying to address er erm a Greater York er dimension, that we are looking at a proposal er which meets the er development needs erm of Greater York over the period er that the contribution should be made through the new settlement. I can envisage being at a public local enquiry th it would not be me, where a barrister would make a great deal of an argument that York needs a regional shopping centre. Do you actually mean that you want this if that case were proven that you would want the regional shopping centre in the new settlement? Mr . Er Malcolm Malcolm , County Council. Er I'm not sure in in the case of the the example you've given of the arising in Greater York that the question of a regional sop shopping centre would arise because that is not necessarily something that is generated within Greater York. The shopping requirements, the sub-regional shoppings of Greater York and obviously the accommodated er within Greater York but obviously something of that nature is is er is not part of those considerations. It is an extreme example Mr , trying to point out the sorts of problems that arise in relation to policies which say more than they mean. And all has one definition. It is all embracing. I'm not sure that the word all is appropriate. As written it strikes me as being a hostage to fortune. Mr . Yes er I I agree wholeheartedly because I can imagine if this ended up in Selby what might be proposed under this umbrella. Erm bearing in mind the planning policies. Erm I think it should be quite specific and it should say the housing needs. I would suggest that all be substituted by housing. Mr ? Paul , planning partnership. I also have difficulty with this particular criterion. erm I accept the point that that has been made that the word all is too all embracing. And perhaps it needs to be restricted to the housing and employment er needs arising from Greater York. The other difficulty I have is in the er the lower case text which ex attempts to explain what is meant by this particular criterion, the sorts of considerations that will be taken into account. And it states,that the requirement will be interpreted to preclud preclude locations which might positively encourage in migration or create pressures for additional land releases . Now I am not sure how those sorts of issues could be objectively measured and therefore assessed. Erm and I you know would welcome a response from the County Council on on that point. Can I suggest that the again the employment needs of Greater York could be a hostage to fortune. If I have got the right grasp of what the County Council and most people around the table are aiming for, the new settlement is primarily about housing. But what is not wanted is a housing estate, but the employment that is related to, not Greater York's employment but the employment related to the level of development in the settlement. Am I right? Yes I would not erm Paul , planning partnership. I would not disagree with that approach er one of the problems in dealing with this erm criterion by criterion is that er I can't refer to other points I've made elsewhere on other aspects. Erm elsewhere in my statement I have indicated an appropriate provision of employment land which is related to the population size which we are suggesting for the new settlement. Er it should not be a an unconstrained figure for employment, it should be related to the economically active in the new settlement that is proposed. Erm Peter , North Yorkshire. Erm while I wouldn't disagree with with that general sentiment, I would probably disagree with what that figure should be but we'll be turning to that er next week. I think the general concept that we is that we do not want to erm envisage we hope we will not envisage proposals which generate a scale of development erm which is quite clearly not related erm to the needs of the Greater York area. And may be more related to to the needs erm of of of of of other areas. And erm how we actually measure I I would accept is d is somewhat difficult and I think it's based on erm a a an assessment er a professional assessment of the issues that are current to the criteria. I think difficulties in in introducing any statistical measurement to it and again it's value judgements er which need to be tested. Erm in due course at er at erm forums such of this. Could I just clarify one other point, erm I did incorrectly advise the panel on the ten miles. Erm erm in respect of the West Yorkshire greenbelt. And strict interpretation of the ten miles and Mr reminded me would just pinch in a little bit erm of the of the West Yorkshire greenbelt. So I if I put that in, I must apologize for misleading the panel. Thank you. Yes yes. Thank you. It's alright. Mr ? ,Associates. If I could just make a brief point on employment. While certainly in my earlier comments, I did say that it is highly desirable that there should be employment in any new settlement, it cannot in my view be the case that th York has certain erm Greater York, but York in particular as a city has certain employment requirements as a result of decline in certain industries. It also has certain opportunities, for example the University has already shown itself to be a leading research centre. And there are certain strategic reasons why the I feel that a number of the employment needs of York in terms of location, advantages, and other advantages, would not match with the new settlement criteria once they're put. And for that reason er certainly some modification of that criteria is necessary. So I wonder, could I just crave your indulgence very briefly. I have a a pressing engagement to go to. Could I possibly make my one one minute comment on criteria eleven? You can yes. Er I hope that won't disturb you or er Sir my comment briefly is I I did indicate in my opening er statement er yesterday, that there is in existence and I don't wish to make too much of this at this particular enquiry, but you should be aware of a new settlement proposal in the Leeds district, outside the statutorily defined greenbelt. That new settlement is while it's within the Leeds district, is on the north eastern perimeter of that district. One of the advantages of that proposal and its interrelationship with any proposal within certain sectors of Greater York, is the question about migration from West Yorkshire but in particular from Leeds. That out migration had generally been running according to the household projections, at something like two thousand per annum. It is projected to fall to somewhere round the fifteen hundred, fourteen per annum, towards the end of this decade. Thereereere ors of Greater York, is the ven? of thety two report. Thank you, the point which Mr has made yesterday, I think will continue to make. Mr . Er yes chair, I'm not going to repeat the point I made yesterday but simply to clarify that the proposal Mr has outlined is not a proposal incorporated in the deposit U D P. Thank you. But I I take the sentiment of Mr 's comment. Chairman, can I queue for your Peter , North Yorkshire. Chairman could I also confirm that the County Council would not be prepared to discount any particular sector in Greater York on the basis of one criteria, even if that was a valid criteria in the terms that er that Mr suggested. We need to look at all twelve. Thank you, can we go back to two, I I Mr and Mr , are your comment related to criterion two? Mr first. Michael , Hambleton District Council. I think bearing in mind the clear intentions behind criteria two and the concern that we've heard over the last three days about inward migration, it might be useful if we tag a rider onto erm criteria two. Perhaps I'm not suggesting this as a sort of erm a definite wording just as a s sug as a suggestion erm to the effect that the settlement should best serve the development needs arising in Greater York rather than the demand generated from outside the area. Something to that effect. Mr ? Chris ,. I can share the concerns of er Miss concerning the expression of the word all in criterion two. I mean conceivably on the tail end of policy H one yesterday, the new settlement isn't going to accommodate all the development needs of Greater York. I think the the answer to that is that the reference e should be made to the village making a significant contribution to the development needs of Greater York, be it housing, employment or comm erm social and community. Thank you. Anyone else got any comments on two. What sort of weight do you want to attach to this? Mr ? Yes I'm I'm sorry,. I'm in a bit of difficulty when you say what sort of weight because w we need to have some sort of scale I think but up to ten. I I would simply say that I think it does deserve maximum weight because I you will not be surprised to hear, er take the same view as Mr from Leeds City Council, that under no circumstances should the the settlement be located anywhere other than in a location which will serve York and not Leeds. So it is strategically a most important erm criterion. But I I It's one of the the leading criteria. Yes. Put it that way. Mr . Michael . I think that two and a eleven basically say the same thing in different in different ways. Erm they are the crit the two criteria which I I consider alongi along with the greenbelt and the need to be located on a public transport corridor, which must be given the most weight in the in the decision making process. the need to avoid locations which stim which stimulate. I think the word sir I would emphasise is stimulate in migration from West Yorkshire, would be clearly contrary to all the established planning principles which have been endorsed by the Secretary of State time and time again. And I think it's I would give very great weight to this partic these two criteria put together and and I think they should be made more explicit sir. And they they should be an explicit criteria saying that locations should be avoided which stimulate as I say, in migration. Thank you. Mr , coming in or are you just? Oh sorry. A slight aberration. As as we've actually had policy er criterion eleven raised by Mr , erm I don' think there's any dissenting voice about the weight on that or the importance of that particular criterion, is that regional and sub-regional policies. I know I know I'm taking it out of order but rather than wait until we get there, this has been raised, why can't we deal with it now? Mr ? It it does seem to me Paul ,planning partnership. It does seem to me that criterion eleven erm is has already been covered erm by implication in items er criteria two er and probably three as well. And I I don't see there is a need for an additional reference to those policies, it seems to me that erm the references to in migration pressures are correct as a consideration erm if you like as a erm numerical basis in terms of assessing what have been made in the county. But it is difficult, it seems to me, to to use them in a sort of very locational sense which is being suggested by their use as one of the criteria. We've heard that avoiding stimulating in migration, particularly from the Leeds conurbation is an important consideration, are they conscious that the rest of regional policy is something of a black box at the moment. And I think it would be helpful to the panel to have a feel for whether the Leeds in migration issue, is the only aspect of regional, sub-regional policy or whether there are other aspects of it which are important or be it perhaps less important. Peter , North Yorkshire. On the particular issue of regional migration as it affects Greater York, I would suspect and we can probably put some information in to confirm this that the linkages between Greater York area and other county areas within er Yorkshire and Humberside, vary. I I I say probably quite definitely that there is not a great linkage between the Greater York area in numeric terms and and all of Humberside, compared to that linkage erm with with with West Yorkshire. Certainly as far as South Yorkshire is concerned, again we would have to say that the linkage social soc socioeconomic linkage between Greater York a and South Yorkshire er is very limited. Er well Mr first Mr , please. Yes er Gerald,. I I have to disagree with er Mr of , I think this criterion is crucially important and in fact what Peter has just said, reemphasises my view that er the important sub-regional and regional issue is the relationship between York and Leeds in this er under this criterion. And I'd just like to take the opportunity to er emphasise the point that I have been making at this E I P that erm r regional migration from the West Yorkshire is reducing and we don't want to create a magnet which reverses that trend. Er so I would regard this impo this criterion as critical very er it should be given the greatest of weight and erm must be left in. Thank you, Mr ? Er , D O E. Erm as you know sir, you've heard already er the department has not yet received advice from the region as to the content of strategic guidance. N we ourselves have just started to put together our first thoughts on it in advance of receiving that advice, but clearly it's much to early to be coming to getting the conclusions as to what that g guidance will eventually contain. I would therefore think it's appropriate to be in this sort of format er so that if any other issues other than questions of in migration appear to be relevant to this situation, then it can be taken on the move. Thank you. Mr ? Yes just very briefly . Peter , North Yorkshire. I do think the discussion so far and the contribution from Mr and Mr is unfairly er at this stage erm prejudicing a proper assessment of er er er a for a new settlement all the way round Greater York including the Southwest and I return to a comment I made before the break, that dualling for example of the outer bypass of the York ring road which is programmed and is , will dramatically change may well dramatically change the perception erm erm of people to the to the west of the Greater York area in respect of the area to the north east. That is a fact, it is coming. Now that issue, needs to be borne in mind. Er in the in in the overall evaluation. So it's not quite as simple to say that regional planning, sub-regional planning requires er a discount a strong discount erm to the south west of York, I think the issue is rightly addressed and we need to address it, but I must say the conversation so far, and and the contributions, really need to be weighted in one direction. Er well I realize we're beg being given illustrations, but I don't think there's anybody really dissenting apart from Mr , to the inclusion of eleven is there. As as one of the criteria. Well I'm not arguing for the exclusion of eleven, I'm just trying to er give a balanced interpretation as to how it should be assessed. We we haven't got there yet, so let's wait. Mr . Thank you chair. Now David , York City Council. I'd just actually like to support what Mr said because erm the next er government reviews. The City Council examines travel patterns from settlements around York, and it was quite noticeable that a number of settlements to the north east of York did actually have a substantial commuting pattern to West Yorkshire. To . So I mean, Mr is quite correct in saying there's already a significant er commuting movement between settlements to the north of York and and Leeds. Thank you. Mr ? Erm I have to concur with that but nevertheless, er the north east sector is further away from Leeds than the south west sector of York. One has to go through past or around York erm for your shopping facilities. One isn't gonna go past York to get to Leeds. If one is between York and Leeds, one has a a more distinct choice as to go to one or the other. My preference er under this er item eleven, would be to clarify as far as we are able in terms of the regional planning guidance that exists, to state what we f what is meant by it. Now we either are going in the direction this morning, or rather I think you're being pressed to go in the direction of seeking to identify in due course, what is the preferred general location, and this undoubtedly is something you can hang your hat on. It's not as airy-fairy as some of the other criteria that er er might be considered as relevant to erm try and find a general location for this settlement. I believe eleven should clarify that in view of the regional planning guidance, in view of the comments made by Leeds, er that it should one should state under this criteria that the new settlement should not be located on the south west side of York. For for for precisely the reason set under regional planning guidance. Unacceptable. I think Sorry I don't think that was heard for the record Mr . That would be unacceptable chairman as far as the County Council's concerned. Well unacceptable it may be in your present state of mind, but But we we cannot It seems to me we cannot end up with a blank sheet of paper, and draw a set of criteria up which says it it can be anywhere here. I think we're beginning to stray into what I hope will be a fruitful discussion on Tuesday morning. Can we move to criterion number three? We've now dealt with one, two and eleven. Criterion three. You've made a qualification to this have you not Mr ? Yes. Yes. There is a a proposed change put in on this . Anybody want to comment on that? Silence means acceptance? Mr . Thank you sir. Paul ,planning partnership. I think we have to go back to what is the fundamental purpose of the York new settlement and that is to meet some of the development plan requirements of the Greater York area. And it seems to me axiomatic that the further the new settlement is located away from York City Centre, York City, then less likely it will be erm to meet the housing requirement needs of the Greater York area. And it seems to me that the outer suggested limit of ten miles is unduly generous and that there are more than sufficient sites available within a radius of six to eight miles from York City Centre. And certainly from my submission to you in the Selby district, I have shown that er the the plan which was enclosed with the written evidence. How does ten miles relate to the definition of the Greater York study area? as a general erm guideline chairman, the Greater York study area has a some degree of consistency with the outer boundary erm of the York greenbelt which is generally around about six miles erm from the Greater York er er from from the City Centre. And in fact, quite fortuitously we did bring along a plan today which has a six mile radius, erm from the Centre of York which was er the subject of some discussion at the greenbelt local plan enquiry and by and large, erm there is some consistency between the outer boundary or the greenbelt erm and the Greater York study area, both at around about six miles from the city centre. I don't understand that. That is the If the circle that I'm looking at is six miles, which you've implied it is. Yeah. Then the surely the Greater York study area's more than six miles otherwise all development's in the Greater York area's within the greenbelt. Mal Malcolm , County Council. The the outer boundary of the Greater York area was the parish boundaries. It's based on parish unions. The outer boundary of the greenbelt is based on physical features, they're not necessarily follow exactly the same features all the way round the Greater York Greater York area. Erm in some places the Greater York area or the greenbelt extends beyond the Greater York area in some places, the Greater York area goes within the greenbelt. The the memo I've got is that the new settlement provision according to the structure plan, relates to the the Greater York area. Yes. But the actually new settlement would have to be located outside the Greater York area, as you are now defining it. Yes that's correct. It would be a provision both outside the erm Greater York area and because of the erm statutory definition of the greenbelt being about six miles erm from from York City Centre, it would also be outside the greenbelt. Which comes back to the question which Miss raised yesterday What is in reality the Greater York area. As distinct from what is the Greater York study area? Well I Are they are they coincidental? Well erm the Greater York study area has been defined and it is that area erm on the front of the erm of the Greater York er study document. That is the area which has been used for the last five or six years as the basis of the And that outer boundary more or less coincides with the outer boundary erm of the York greenbelt. Coming back to what is er er greater what is greater York, you would need to have to assess to look at the socioeconomic linkages with with er with York. And depending on how you erm which criteria you use, they may well vary. You may define Greater York on a erm on a different basis u if you use for example as against number of trips to theatres. Or shopping in York. But generally the feeling is that the appropriate sort of area for Greater York er in terms of the main linkages erm are is that defined in the Greater York study, which appeared to er find some support in the local government commission for example. As being an appropriate erm area to look at. Mr . Ian , Ryedale District. Erm I think the proposal for rewording this policy to within eight miles of York is being unnecessarily restrictive. As can be seen from the map up there in the north eastern sector, the proposed outer boundary of the greenbelt goes beyond the six miles anyway, and is probably nearer seven miles. Erm there are a number of objections to the outer boundary on the greenbelt in that area which if they came u came up, on an eight mile boundary, would reduce the area of search to something like three quarters of a mile. Mr and then Mr . Tony , Congle. Er with regard to the definition of the Greater York area, I referred to this earlier on in my submission this morning, but it may er assist the panel if I draw attention to the Secretary of State's letter in approving the structure plan in nineteen eighty seven. Particularly paragraph er five point eleven. Erm with your permission sir, I'll read it out. The Secretary of State has noted the panels suggestion that the boundaries of the Greater York area should be outside the York greenbelt area. But having regard to the document Policies for Housing and Industrial Land in the Greater York Area, on which the County Council has based their proposed provision, and to which the panel referred, he considers that the outer boundary of the Greater York area, should be about five and seven miles from the City Centre, the precise boundary being a consideration for local planning. As a result, he accepted the housing provision of nine thousand one hundred as recommended by the panel, compared with the ten thousand one hundred in policy H one of the submitted. Following that er the Greater York study area er was defined by the County Council erm in consultation with the Greater York authorities and er as has been explained to you, it is substantially following the boundary of the greenbelt as defined. Now if I can just refer as I did in my earlier submission to the possible results of that, I suggested that the requirement for the new settlement to be located beyond the outer boundary of the green er York greenbelt, should be rolled into criterion one, the need to avoid the greenbelt. Now in criterion three, it also goes on to say, and have as close a relationship to the city as is consistent with approved greenbelt policy. Now it it just possible and I will explain in a moment why, that the necessity to avoid the greenbelt may not be exactly the same as being beyond the outer boundary of the York greenbelt. The reason for this is that in my submission to the York greenbelt local plan enquiry, I suggested that there could be a case for making an inset within the greenbelt to accommodate a new settlement. Thus excluding it from greenbelt designation. If my submission is accepted in the inspector's report, it is possible that it would be consistent with approved greenbelt policy to have an inset new settlement avoiding the greenbelt but not outside the outer boundary of the York greenbelt. it is for this reason firstly to identify the gree er the Greater York area as considered by the Secretary of State, and also to with regard to criterion three, er the question of consistency with agreed agreed approved greenbelt policy that I make this further comment. Thank you. Well you'll have to wait and see what the inspector says on the greenbelt. That I will accept sir out of great interest. But it also follows from that that the panel here can make no assumption other then the greenbelt is as in the deposited plan. ,. Yes I appreciate that inclusion as well. Mr . Yes, Chris ,. Erm you'll see sir in my submissions that I've proposed a rewording of criterion three so that the Greater York new settlement should be located as close to the outer boundary of the as of the York greenbelt as is consistent with greenbelt policy. The reason behind this is having regard to the advice in the draft P P G thirteen and what we read in P P G twelve about erm trying to reduce dista erm distances travelled. And I think that in the balance, that if you have two sites in e the area of search that are equal in all other respects, except that one is closer to York than the other, then the environmental considerations of that site being closer erm to York would weigh in its favour. I speak with e some experience in the situation where two sites that will be within half a mile of that which was erm supported by the inspector, were dismissed basically on the basis that if I read the quotes for you. Of the western sites these are sorry this is also one of the furthest from Cambridge. Whilst there is no great dis difference in the distance of any of the sites in terms of, in aggregate, all the journeys which would be attracted to Cambridge, bearing in mind the role of the new settlement in serving Cambridge's development needs, would be substantially higher in money terms and in the use of energy than most of the alternative proposals. I would totally agree with that conclusion and I would say that in the York situation, you should choose the one that is closer to York than is farthest out. All other things being equal. But we have a band of six to ten miles, is that right Mr ? Yes. Yes. S I would say that you're better off Chris ,. You're better off rewording that criterion to say as close en er to York as is consistent with greenbelt policy. Mr Thank you sir. Erm erm get my mind round the relationship between this policy and the H one policy. Erm and it's something I hadn't quite considered before, that the greenbelt boundary and the Greater York area boundary is roughly . In fact it looks if if anything, the greenbelt boundary is slightly wider than the Greater York area boundary. In policy H one, it's talking about nine thousand seven hundred and twenty in the Greater York area. Is that the greenbelt. There will be requirement for part of Peter , North Yorkshire, part of the Greater York requirement that that is the new settlement required to be met outside the greenbelt and outside the the Greater York area. But Er ,. Policy H one doesn't say that. The need to look carefully at the wording on that particular part of H one. Mr . There is an argument for retaining a four mile annulus for the area of search for the new settlement rather than a two mile, because of the rigidity which at present applies to the distance of the outer boundary of the greenbelt from York City Centre. Historically this was created shortly after nineteen sixty one as a rough way of judging the submissions which had been made for sketch plan purposes on the basis of the nineteen fifty five circular. And the six mile doctrine has been repeated with one minor modification of wording ever since then. At the time of the greenbelt enquiry, an extension beyond six miles of the greenbelt could not be considered because a general revision of the county structure plan was not envisaged. On a general revision, there might well be a case for extending that distance in view of the development of the central area which has taken place since the six miles was first established. it has been considerable. And that has resulted in the restriction of the annulus width of the greenbelt. Er in other words the inner boundary has gone out since nineteen sixty one and the outer boundary has not. Therefore, for practical purposes, it would be better not to restrict the search area outside the belt to two miles now, but to have four miles. Yes. So in other words you you are saying instead of six to eight, it's six to ten. Yes. Thank you. I think Mr was in front of you Mr . I do apologize. Sorry. Mr . , D O E. Just some points there. Sir. The area of search six to ten miles there. I was just gonna point out that if you were to refer to the approved key diagram, you can get a quite easily visual representation of what that embraces. There are certain things marked on that key diagram to give you clues. The position of Tadcaster for instance on the fifty nine to the west, the red triangle which indicates a bypass at . In the north west it's roughly where the A nineteen meets the east coast mainline railway. And on the north east it's just a little short of where the York Scarborough railway crosses the A sixty four. The only point I'd make on that sir, you'll see from that that the ten mile limit does extend across the county boundary into Humberside. And there have been er quite detailed negotiations between the two counties and my understanding is that North Yorkshire County Council have agreed with Humberside that on no account will their their proposals stray across the boundary into Humberside. Yes I I I had noted that that discussion had gone on and assurances have been given to Humberside that North Yorkshire would no stray in the sense of putting their new settlement into Humberside. Mr . Thank you, Roy , House Builders Federation. Erm this issue about the extent er of Greater York. I I have a always understood the distinction between the Greater York study area which is an area of calculation of among other things, housing needs and the Greater York area which was an area in which those needs may be met. I think there's there there's a distinction between the pair and they're not necessarily the same area. And so the point that Mr makes that because you have you you assess needs within a six mile radius effectively, er doesn't necessarily mean you meet those needs er within that six mile radius. So there there doesn't there isn't a conflict and th and there isn't a conflict because we have the area of search for a new settlement which is established in the referred to which is broader than the study area. do you want to go back on it? Just very briefly, I think that erm the point Mr raised is a fair point and erm there may well need to be a good bit of clarification erm on on that . Mr ? Well e erm I don't want to dwell on this point but it it may have implications wider than just where these boundaries are. Er because the commitments figures we looked at and the need figures are are they the Greater York area or the Greater York study area? Sorry. All the discussion we had in the last few days. the ones that have been asked for. the discussion we had. The figures that erm the nine thousand seven hundred dwellings, related to the housing need generated within the Greater York study area together with appropriate allowance for migration, and that totals nine thousand seven hundred dwellings. It's on the basis of the the parishes within the area that we have defined erm as the Greater York a Greater York study area. I think . And I'm sorry if this is going to ruin Mr 's weekend. It is not going to be helpful to have the panel supplied with the information we asked for in relation to the Greater York area devised from the H B F table of commitments, confined to York City and the greenbelt. I think what we need is commitments within the area of search. Er which month would you like that information? Well the area of search is defined on the key diagram . Which month, November nineteen ninety three, preferably before the twenty third. Er yes we'll do our best. Thank you. Mr . er John , C P R E. Just just er just so I can be absolutely sure about that I think I'm say I'm asking the same thing that the senior inspector's just asked. The commitments data that we've been dealing with to date, for the Greater York area, that was supplied by the County Council, was that data that applied to the what we're now calling the the the the greenbelt area, or was it the area of search as well? Because I think erm it it does somewhat alter the discussions that we've had to date i clarification of that. All figures that we've produced and are producing in respect of commitments and the policy element the Greater York policy element of policy H one, relate to within the area defined as Greater York through the Greater York . They have not been they are not the area covered by the er York greenbelt because as Mr said, er er greenbelt boundaries follow natural features rather than administrative boundaries which we use for the for the Greater York study. And the figures that we worked out are not the figures for commitments within the six to ten mile area of search. Yeah. They are for that area on the Greater York study. So just just on that basis Mr chairman, therefore presumably on Tuesday there will be an opportunity to revisit some of those figures in the light of the revised data that the the senior inspector requested from Mr . Let me see the figures and I'll dwell on that over the weekend. Mr . Michael . My concern about this criterion and and my concern about the information asked by the panel, is of course the area of search includes areas which I don't think any house builder would consider falls within the York housing market. It in fact includes quite substantial areas which are now in in fact includes parts of Leeds Metropolitan Borough. Therefore parts of erm areas which actually relate to the housing needs of York. I I like do support a narrower area of search for that reason. Particularly as in to the west and south of York, the ten mile radius gets you very very close to Wetherby and very close to Selby, which are not areas which fall within the York housing market. Mr ? Thank you, Lindsey , Harrogate Borough Council. Just to pick up a point on er Miss 's latest request for information. Erm the housing need figure we've been working on for Greater York has been nine thousand seven hundred and that's been based on the parishes within the Greater York study area. Presumably if we're now looking at commitment in the wider area of search which would draw in many additional parishes, I think in the Harrogate case er something like seven to eight additional parishes, er if we look at commitments there would we also need to revise the housing need figure as well? To look at it on a comparable basis. I think there is a danger of too much being made of this. The reason we asked for the figures is to get a ball park idea. No more than that. We certainly would not wish to open up the question of need within that area. I also take the point Mr has made, and only assure you that we will look at these figures when we get them and take on board the sorts of comments that have just been made by yourself and Mr and by and use them with our judgement applied liberally. Peter , North Yorkshire . You will in producing those figures chairman, ten miles have to approximate the ten miles Yes yes yes yes yeah yeah. As best we can. Have we Mr ? Sorry just just er John , C P R E. Just one minor point. Obviously erm in in receiving those additional figures I accept what the in senior inspector says about not er opening up the need side of the debate but clearly is I think the er Mr from Harrogate is saying it does it does cast a question mark on the supply dimension of the debate in terms of additional and commitments coming into the the figures to meet the Greater York housing requirement. So whilst I'm not seeking to change the the the Greater York I E within the greenbelt requirement as we now define it, the the supply side of the equation is bound to change because the commitments figures will be different given the revised area of analysis. Mr . Malcolm , County Council. accept the point that's been made, we've got to remember that the commitments that are are contained in the band six to ten miles, are principally there to meet the general requirements arising in the districts Yeah. and they're not there t as they are at the moment to meet the needs of the Greater York area. Yes yes. Anyone wish to add any comments on criterion three or can we move to four? May I play devil's advocate again? Erm two things occur to me from this criterion. First of all, the risk that on the assumption primary road network includes trunk roads as well as County Council primary roads, is it right that we should encourage essentially local traffic onto trunk roads. I'm sure those familiar with P P Gs will recall their purpose, moving people long distances from A to B. Not carrying local traffic. And secondly, is it right within this criterion, to put more emphasis on car transport or bus transport. Road transport of some sort than rail transport. Which by virtue its of its phraseology, the criterion appears to me to do. Peter , North Yorkshire, chairman. Just to comment on the senior inspector's first point. I think erm one would have to ac er accept that in Greater York, erm the existing pattern of trunk roads as they affect Greater York, do discharge an important function in distributing people around er Greater York and it's entirely sensible in the Greater York dimension that they would do. If they weren't there and if they weren't being used, then there may well be more and more p pressure on the city centre of York, so they do discharge I think er a positive function. The bypass for example allowing people to move round er Greater York without passing through the er through the city centre and I think that's par part of the County Council and I suspect City Council's overall approach to traffic management in Greater York. Michael Michael . I agree with the panel that the criterion should give greater emphasis to public transport, that must be in accord with P P G three and must be in accord with the emerging P P G thirteen. It also should give greater emphasisis to the ability to link into the rail network. On the question of trunk roads and the general capacity of the road system around York, the panel will see that we have actually presented some detailed evidence prepared by and I and for the information for the panel on Tuesday, I understand that all that information is agreed with the County Surveyor as well. So that's w is an agreed position on highways. Now in we have also consulted with the Department of Transport about our proposal and the Department of transport have no objections to the use of the A sixty four north east of York to serve a new settlement. Have you got that? Mr Paul ,planning partnership. Er whatever agreements may have been made with the Department of Transport and the County Surveyor regarding the acceptability north east of York of course doesn't mean that other locations are also not un not acceptable under this criterion. Erm I've expressed a view in my written submissions that I think the emphasis solely on rail erm access i is unfortunate and perhaps should be widened to er public transport generally, obviously rail access plus rail transport has a particular type of usage. Erm in terms of York, the pattern of employment er within York City is fairly dispersed and obviously isn't particularly well served by the Central Railway station. Er a bus system however is more able to provide a more diffuse pattern of access to those areas, from outside, wherever the new settlement is located. I'm sorry, if I could just make on other point. You raised this question of whether or not I think the new settlement should link into the primary net road network. Erm in my view, it has to link in somewhere into the primary i into the road network and it's not appropriate to link it into er the local road system and er therefore I think it's inevitable that a linkage will need to be made to the primary road network. Including into possibly into a trunk road? I think if erm if you can avoid a trunk road then that is a preferable solution erm if you're able to rely on just County Council roads then that is a better solution. Mr Ed , Leeds City Council. erm perhaps I've misunderstood Miss 's comment on it but Leeds would not want the consideration of traffic consequences to be limited to roads within North Yorkshire. Depending on the location of the new settlement, it it could have traffic consequences beyond North Yorkshire boundaries. Mr . , North York . Er the point I would like to make if I may is with er regard to the question of a a positive statement er that car dependency should be reduced and er more emphasis given to the availability and use of bus transport erm as well as t er rail transport. I think in the context of the Greater York area, er bus transport will have greater relevance. It will be more accessible, most importantly it'll be more affordable. Given the relative costs of bus transport compared with rail. An interesting comment from the national travel survey, nineteen eighty nine ninety one report, is that trains were mainly used by those living in the highest income households. In contrast, local bus usage was associated with those living in the lowest income households. Bearing in mind that given a choice between the use of rail and car, the question of cost necessarily will come into that equation. If the costs are not significantly lower, people will =til still tend to use the car. The other aspect with regard to the new settlement is that it should contain a significant proportion of affordable housing. This in itself I think indicates that there should be affordable transport as a corollary. The other point I would like to make is the question of the impact on the er highway system. I think, taking into the equation of er discussing and considering alternative travel arrangements, the availability and indeed the extension of park and ride facilities around York should be taken into account and an integrated transport pattern, based on park and ride should figure within the transport strategy. Thank you. Mr ? York City Council. Er during my comments yesterday sir, I you'll not be surprised that if with a very strong emphasis on if, er the the panel do go for a new settlement, we do in York feel very strongly that er the issue of priority for public transport usage should be a very high one in this criteria. Er I note the comments made around the table about the the likelihood of rail based er traffic making a significant contribution. I would share that expectation that er a location which will be ra well served by rail, whilst very desirable from our viewpoint, I think is extremely unlikely er given the pattern of the the rail system in the area. Similarly with public transport, as I said yesterday, the evidence is quite clearly that er the public transport system is York i in Greater York is not good, and it erm is unlikely to be er improved by er the on the scale suggested I I would contend. But nevertheless, having said those, I would clearly emphasise the importance of those two elements of the criteria. Erm if a new settlement is proposed. Turning to the issue of the senior inspector has raised, as something like er get my proportions right, but something probably like three quarters of the York outer ring road is is trunked already. Clearly any proposal will have a major impact on the trunk road system. Similarly with the other likely locations, I know we're g not going into that, but virtually all of them will e inevitably feed onto the trunk network which does fulfil a dual function around York. Thank you. Mr is this something new in addition to what's already been said? Well I'm Or are you covering the same . Well I I I would express my support for Mr and for Mr on widening the scope erm to include because clearly national policy talks about public transport generally and not just rail. But just picking up on Mr 's point. In my experience, British Rail whilst wishing to encourage the use of of trains as they would, er are resistant to opening stations that just delay journey times. So whilst it's desirable to encourage the use of rail, I think in in in practice it's going to be er very difficult to achieve that and in therefore you should look at public transport in the round. I note your critical comments about British Rail. Mr . , D O E. Two points sir. Erm the County Council's phrase, an ability to link into the rail network, was geared originally to their proposal for a settlement of between eight hundred and a thousand dwellings. That has already been increased to fou fourteen hundred er you when you're making your recommendation may or may not come up with a recommendation for a somewhat larger settlement. Clearly the bigger the settlement, the more the greater the significance one might expect from the rail network in this context. Er the other aspect. Erm much has already been said about the role of P P Gs and the advice they contain. Er the draft P P G thirteen, for the moment merely reinforces the public transport points that are already made in P P G twelve. But there is further unpublished research on new settlements which we are awaiting at the moment, and it's our anticipation that when that is available and the Department considers it, it will update and er refine P P G thirteen. And our headquarters have have indicated to us that that might well include a refinement of the criteria which are presently in P P G three. Mm. Well we shall wait and see. wait and see. Mr . A very quick point sir. Erm I I would have thought it would be helpful that if criterion four could be worded in such a way that it it emphasised the need to maximize transport choice. And I think that must be the key. Obviously i i bus would be acceptable in certain circumstances, it's obviously better if one has the choice between bus and rail. Thank you for that. C on that on that Weight. What weight are you going to give it. Somewhere near the top of the list? Michael . I think that in the light of the emerging government guidance, that the transport choice must be given a very s substantial weight in the in that decision mak making process. I in in the context of what Mr has just said, and I'm really talking about the way he's said it, but the way actually looked at the criteria, can I try to cos I would like to close on this particular question by one o'clock. Can I ask when we deal with the others that you look at them in that light. As a sort of principle against which a settlement will be judged. I don't really want to go over the grounds which you know you would seek to weigh different erm locations. We'll come back to that on Tuesday. What I'm looking for e effectively is a set of criteria which will promote best planning practise either at structure plan or local plan level, in order to judge the location of this settlement. So can we now move off four and look at five which relates to the need to er again I think maximize wight be a suitable word in here, er infrastructure. Particularly drainage and water supply. All I'd say on five chairman is that this issue of infrastructure particularly sewerage, sewerage, foul water and water supply is a major issue in York and the location of the new settlement I think needs to be very closely assessed in terms of er of five. I think it's a very important criteria that we need to look at. I agree it's important, what I have no feel for, is whether it is something which helps to make a decision as to where the new settlement might go. What I think I'm looking for is some evidence that the severity of the infrastructure problems to which you refer actually varies from one district to another. If it is the same problem in all districts then it doesn't help anyone make a decision. Well it's not chairman, and perhaps Mr has got some information I think that might help you on that. Er yes, Malcolm , County Council. Certainly in the work that the Greater York er authorities did in preparing their proposals over the past er four or five years, er we have worked fairly closely with what was then the Yorkshire Water Authority and National Rivers Authorities on the questions of drainage erm and so forth which are our major problems around York. And there are certain areas around the city where a the provision of a new settlement is likely to create more severe environmental problems. No I don't need to pursue that any further. Mr ? Er John n, C P R E. Can I just make one suggest suggestion hopefully it's helpful. Er the reference to surface water presumably that's a reference to to flooding and the the need to avoid areas at risk from flooding. Erm I ask that as a point of clarification. Yes chairman. The the conclusions of the National Rivers Authority erm and the the Water Authority was that er in general terms er the location of a new settlement could have a significant impact er on local land drainage. Erm and that that really needs to be carefully assessed as one moves towards some conclusions on where that new settlement ought to be. Can I just just Er is that something that perhaps should be explained in the explanatory memorandum with the discussion on this criterion in particular is quite brief. Erm Peter , North Yorkshire, I think it's appropriately addressed there and I think there are so many elements of it that er I think you w you would end up with perhaps a very long explanatory section. I think the importance of the issue I think is fairly stated there. I think I think we take it as it as it as it at its face value Mr . Mr Roy , House Builders Federation. I think in assessing this criteria chairman, you you've got to make a distinction between the N R A responsibilities and the Water Company responsibilities. Erm I I I would obviously take very seriously the N R A responsibilities but I think you've got to bear in mind there's within the water act, there's a thing called infrastructure charges Yes. and and and and and and in fact the the provision of sewerage and er and and water supply are are are a matter of of er things which are done on demand and er are are covered by infrastructure charges. And and the shortage of er sewerage as such is not as su as such a criteria to on which to judge the provision of the new settlement because that's part and parcel of the infrastructure that would be provided. Yes. Six. To avoid the best and most versatile agricultural land etcetera. Do we have any dissenting voices or comments on that, or is it acceptable. How important is it? How importa It's it's a very short comment erm Yes, that's alright, go on. And and but the only comment I'd like to make is that there was a suggestion in I think it was a that the necessity to protect agricultural land had diminished since the food from our own resources and government's policy. I would simply like to point out that the protection of the countryside and agricultural land for its own sake is the policy that should be er er applied in this case, and I just want to make that point. It it doesn't matter whether it's needed or not needed for food production. Chairman, Peter , North Yorkshire. We have of course proposed a change to to this criterion which would effectively terminate the criterion after P P G seven. This was in response to requests from . Well that's the one I'm reading here. Then Mr 's not Sorry Mr 's yes. Well I I I mean I see six as being quite specific in relation to agricultural land instead of the more general philosophy erm which would probably appear in other parts of the structure plan policies. Can we move on to But Sorry it's all yours. I appreciate you're trying to get on. Mr , if we have a criterion that says protect the countryside for its own sake, and a criterion from our discussion yesterday, and somewhere down here in relation to free standing, isn't our conclusion that nowhere is acceptable for a new settlement. Because by definition it is not related to an existing settlement, it is not in the greenbelt, it must be in the countryside. So the net effect of your suggested criterion is to get us rather further from a decision than even the chairman and I thought we might be at ten o'clock this morning. Yeah, Joe . Well my my suggestion was not meant to be unhelpful er Erm no it it it y you know where I'm coming from on this, the suggestion is that Se Yes that Selby is unconstrained in inverted commas. Erm I just don't I I I simply want to make the point that the protection of the countryside for its own sake is planning policy which must be brought within the of that criterion. But I do realize that it does er have locational implication which possibly we can deal with on Tuesday. Thank you. Michael . As worded I I think that criterion six is unrealistic. there's general acceptance and I note the D O E even accepted in their representations that any new settlement around Greater York will by the very nature of the character of Greater York, require taking some best and most versatile agricultural land. The object objective in six should be to minimize the loss of that land and to take the land in the l in the lower grade within the best and most versatile, rather than the higher grade. And that of course is exactly what P P G seven says. Do you want to comment Mr ? Er just very briefly. I've just a quick discussion with Mr . Er we don't think that er that a new settlement would nec of necessity er include the the best and most versatile land. Thank you. Thank you. Paul ,planning partnership. And I concur with Mr on the point that he made. My concern about this is that I don't see how a view can be taken at a strategic level on something which ultimately can be only ascertained on a site specific basis. We cannot rely on the erm land category maps which are produced by the Ministry of Agriculture, for areas I believe of less than forty hectares. Erm and and I welcome any response of the County Council as to how erm they would actually s use this criteria to make a to take a view on the acceptability of any location around the er York area. I think we looked to Peter , North Yorkshire. We'd look to advice from the Ministry of Agriculture on this and their view to m their their willingness to make a positive contribution to the development of the e er assessment in terms of the er erm the availability and distribution of the the best and most versatile land. I think that'll be the right way to proceed. Michael . I think it's a matter of fact that all the schemes I have seen have included an element of best and most versatile land. And then include schemes widely distributed throughout Greater York. The difference is in the proportion and type of best and most versatile. And that must be what should be expressed in the criterion. Thank you, Mr ? . I think there's an opportunity here to bring in to six one of the considerations which occur in paragraph thirty three of P P G three, namely the reference in the fourth point to the importance of using erm derelict land, reclaiming derelict land. Er if that can arise. And one might one might say in six, erm perhaps not avoid but minimize the best and most versatile land in accordance with the provisions of P P G seven. And utilise where possible, derelict land. Thank you for that. Any more comments on this one or can we move to criterion seven? Which at the moment reads, be capable of being assimilated satisfactorily into the local landscape. Is this a strategic matter? What does it mean? Does it mean that it is well landscaped, built of local materials, doesn't stick up like a sore thumb? If so, are those strategic matters? Or does it mean something else? I think chairman Peter , North Yorkshire. Er I think there's a need to to have a look at erm landscape character er across er Greater York on a consistent basis and er there are a number of ways that you could that you could look at this. I suspect there may well be areas in Greater York for example which are of high landscape value. Er but which because of their erm pattern of tree cover for example, may well be able to erm erm er accept er a new settlement which will blend reasonably erm er into the er landscape. Erm conversely that would suggest that erm you know, the one shouldn't automatically er be looking at the areas of of low l landscape value. Erm conversely I I think we would want to look at individual proposals as they as they came forward, and see what landscaping proposals they have and er how they intend to mitigate any perhaps adverse er landscape er implications. I think this is an extremely complicated er issue but I think it's on that needs to be looked at consistently across North Yorkshire. But the implication that Mr is that this is not a criterion which can effectively be operated at the strategic level. It's a local consideration. Well I mean I think the issue revolves around whether landscape in the Greater York context, in the light of the specific proposal, is a is a strategic issue. And I think the need to protect the landscape on a settlement which we propose erm of fourteen hundred dwellings and round about three thousand three hundred people, I think is quite a significant and important issue for for Greater York. Yes I'm not I'm not saying that I don't think it's a an important consideration. What I'm trying to get a feel for is the level at which it is a consideration. I would be f very surprised if any of the district councils for example, would accept that a new settlement could be plonked down somewhere within their area, without consideration of landscape proposals. Yes I agree. Thank you. Mr Paul . Paul ,. You asked the question of of what this criterion erm could mean and I'd suggest that it means the following. That the new settlement should utilise the site of er low landscape and ecological value. The development should be capable of being assimilated into the natural environment. And the development should be able to show a positive landscape and ecology effect. Now I think the landscape issue and by landscape I mean er landscape and ecology, is capable of assessment at a strategic level, that's why we have er National Parks, A O N Bs and so on. And I think a similar exercise can be undertaken in the Greater York area. So in my view it is a relevant consideration at the structure plan level. Michael . I tend to agree with on at least on the latter point. The the criterion can be applied strategically. Erm if there are areas la large areas around Greater Greater York particularly to the west of the city, which because of their flat open character would not be suitable for for a new settlement. There are other areas, particularly to I'd accept to either to the south or to the north east where a new settlement could more easily be integrated into the existing landscape framework. And therefore I think it can be applied in a strategic way and therefore is reasonable for inclusion within the structure plan. Mr and then Mr . Ian , Ryedale District. I would agree with the points made by Mr and Mr in that it can be a strategic issue. I'm not necessarily in agreement with their conclusions. I think that what is needed for the Greater York area is a comparative assessment of the landscape quality and that the criterion should indicate that the settlement should avoid areas of significant landscape value. What Mr seems to be directing is that the settlement should be directed to those areas which are at present have pleasant tree cover and things, which theoretically can assimilate a new settlement which in the context of the Vale of York, tend to be those areas which are th are of the better landscape quality. By including the words, avoiding areas of significant landscape value, you are by implication, directing it at areas which can be improved by for example a structure plan to increase or improve the landscape value of that area. And I would suggest that the that is putting it within the er remit of paragraph three three of P P G three that it offers the opportunity to er upgrade areas of low landscape value. Thank you for that. Mr ? I certainly agree that the thoughts of paragraph thirty three should be brought into criterion seven. Erm and particularly the conclusion of paragraph thirty three that following the criteria they give, the net effect of a new settlement will either enhance the environment or cause only modest environmental impact. That depends where on starts from, what the landscape quality is to begin with, whether one can bring about an enhancement. And I therefore feel that it it is indeed both a strategic and a local consideration. Yes yes. Yes I'd accept that. Any more comments on this one or can we move to eight? Which currently says avoid areas of archaeological and nature conservation interest. Mr Joe . I don't regard this as a strategic issue. I think this is a a matter for erm local consideration. Do you have any view on that one? I don't think I'll go to the wall over eight, chairman. Thank you. I Sorry. Mr n. Sorry I can't agree with Mr erm planning policy guidance three quite clearly indicates that S S S I's for example are a strategic matter to be taken into account in locating new settlements. Thank you. Number nine. Be free standing and well removed from existing settlements, thereby minimizing any adverse impact on existing settlements. A comment I ha or a question I had was how far is well removed? Do you intend to try and define that. I think we'd we'd want to look at it and I think various figures we've talked about certainly as officers, whether we ought to try and er quantify that in terms of distance. certainly I think er we'd be looking perhaps for a minimum of er er of one mile but I can't advise you on any level of agreement as to as to what any definition of it. I think the I think you will be talking about that sort of order. Is this a consideration which helps anybody to decide which district the new settlement should go in? Much shaking of heads. gentleman for . Mr first. With er this consideration in mind I er put forward erm to you the diagram of settlements round York. Because coalescence can be in my view a very important issue in deciding which sectors might well be the id=375s1 Thank you. Er I I think I take Mr 's point that er you wouldn't go to well a mile it's really going to be horses for courses isn't it? Yeah I think we need t I I think one really needs to look at this. Yes. Down on the ground. Yes and not a strategic one. Or is it? Well In terms of determining location. I think it's an important erm requi it should be an important requirement th the philosophy behind that that er that that argument should be pursued that it should be free standing. Yeah. Thank you, Mr . Er thank you sir, Terry n, Selby District. Yes I was going to say, whilst it's not necessarily a strategic issue, there is a reference in the revise P P G three to the need to avoid coalescence. Which is a very similar wording to to the one used and if you do decide er to go forward with this criteria, perhaps erm there's scope to introduce the wording avoiding coalescence. Yes. Michael , very briefly. I think that this erm criterion nine relates to is is of the type of new settlement rather than helping select the general location. And I would my my general thoughts would be that it the word free standing should be actually in included within the preamble to the policy. And it be removed as a criterion. Cos it doesn't help help select a general location. Because almost all general locations round York could be could be fulfilled by that criterion. Mhm. Thank you. Can I move on to ten which no doubt will excite comment from my left. Mr ? Roy , House Builders Federation. You anticipate me sir. Erm yes you you you'll know from my evidence that I have certain reservations about the detailed wording of this of this particular criteria. Er my main my main concern i i is really related to the implication within it that that literally every cost which is associated with a new settlement would have to be borne by the developer. So that literally means the developer will pay all the teachers that might be in a school, pay all the people to sweep the roads and a a and and everything else. They would expenses of that nature. That would seem to me to be contrary to government guidance and the wording needs tidying up to reflect that if that is not what is actually meant by the revision and by the wording of the policy. Erm a for that reason, I have in my evidence commended some alternative wording to you which is based upon erm a panel report for the Nottinghamshire structure plan who who considered the issue . Thank you. Is this a strategic matter? I'm not saying question that this is not an important consideration, but does it help us decide where the new settlement should be? Right. Peter , North Yorkshire. Er I don't think it probably that it does decide help you decide where the location ought to be, but that having said that, I would not want to minimize in any way er the views of my authority er as to the importance erm of the look of contributions from the private sector. Erm obviously you've seen what Ro what Roy has put in and obviously you'll come to a view on the position. Mr ? Er John , C John , C P R E. I think erm er certainly the first half of the cri the criterion is is a strategic consideration. Erm but within that the the the phrase the troubles me is self contained. Erm particularly your question Mr chairman about er the principle against which such a criteria can be can be judged. Erm I think we established yesterday or current research suggests that certainly size of fourteen hundred people, no way can achieve self containment. Erm Mr in in his closing remarks yesterday afternoon defined a balanced and integrated community. What what we haven't yet defined is is what we mean by self containment. And and the degree to which that is consistent with the sustainable development argument that has been already been put. Erm er presumably this is something would have to be elaborated in the explanatory memorandum. Can you say why you think it would be it is a strategic criterion? If we take a narrow interpretation at least for the moment of strategic means it helps decide where it should go. Well that that depends on on how we define self containment, because erm self containment has for example a transport implication. Erm if er the extent to which a new settlement would generate new trips and that that has a locational implication. I'm not sure we follow that one. Well er as I say I think, er if if if the County Council are are insisting that any new settlement erm should be self contained, I think one would need to see what that definition is before we can be clear as to whether or not it has it has strategic implications. Cos that for example But is it not true that wherever it is, we're not going to build a wall around it, to keep them in. Mm. But but th And therefore wherever it is it is going to have transport implications in accordance with its size. But that but that's my point really, we it's not really defined what what is meant in this criteria by criteria But by self containment. If you accept that it doesn't matter where it is, it will have transport implications, we've already discussed a criterion erm about relating it to transport provision and facilities. How does this criterion help us to decide where it should go. Erm well well er put like that erm put like that er I suppose it it doesn't if if one accepts that the the the traffic and transport erm case is ma is made elsewhere. Paul Paul ,. Th this criterion I think is what I would call an operational criteria, erm it defines effectively what's going into the new settlement. Erm I don't think it assists at all in terms of location and I think it is a strategic matter however in terms of erm the structure plan and would probably be best incorporated into policy H two in a revised form and I suggested. I believe inevitable later. Thank you. Mr Erm thank you. Roy , House Builders Federation. I'd just like to I don't think this is a strategic matter in the in in the terms which you are now defining it and indeed the issue of self containment, my understanding is only the universe is self contained. Erm but er you'll notice from my wording er revised wording of the policy, I seek to define the terms of that self containment by using the words, and so the District Council will seek to secure land for . Mr . David , York City Council. Just a brief comment. Erm you'll not be surprised to hear discussing yesterday, on the issue of self containment, erm I regard this this criteria and . Would you say that again. If if if you accepted if you were to accept the the the issue of self containment we discussed yesterday, about the transportation implications of a new settlement of this size. Then the inclusion of the word self contained in this criteria within those terms rule out all proposals . You would like high priority therefore attached to Yes I I remember we went down a very long cul-de-sac at one stage on self containment didn't we. I think we might need to look at that one very carefully to see whether it adds anything to the er criteria. Mr . Wincup, D O E. Just a very brief point sir. Th don't want to extend the the d debate on this, just to point out that paragraphs thirty five and thirty seven, P P G three, both related to local plan policies and not to structure plan. Yes. Thank you. Do you all feel as though you've had your say on that? Mr , were you going to rephrase that? Er no sir, I'm waiting for the next item. Lead on. Er Terry , Selby District. Er this i matter er item twelve. I thought I'd better get in here first before Mr , and er Michael start hurling pieces of coal at each other. Erm I'll be I'll be very brief because I set out Selby District's views in in my written subm submission, but basically, strict interpretation of of this particular criterion, would clearly eliminate substantial parts of Selby District which is affected by the development of the coal field. Now the coal field is a clearly very complex issue, but basically it it is now becoming clearer that er the life of the coalfields will not be as long as originally envisaged. In fact substantial parts of it will be er will not extend beyond the end of the the plan period. And al already there are significant areas of that have actually been worked out. So that that the constraint wouldn't apply in in those areas anyway. Er at the very least I wish to see the criteria amended erm and expressed in terms of minimizing impact rather er avoiding completely. Yes I I presume there must be some form of safeguarding areas laid down by British Coal. And equally I presume you've also got some form of mineral protection zones or aren't they relevant in the context of the area of search. I I don't th in terms of and gravel resources or whatever. Er Malcolm , County Council. Yes I just can't get to the reason why why you have th this criteria in. Well as you know, we have very substantial planning permission for the Selby coalfield which covers Yeah. Mm. part of the area that we would be looking at for the new settlement. And I think it is very important if we take into account the the potential conflict. Now that does not entirely rule out any possibility of the new settlement within the Selby area, as er Mr has implied. That has never been the County Council's interpretation of the of the relationship between er this criteria and the Selby coalfield. Nevertheless it is a very clear strategic matter which must be included in my view in the in the criteria included in the structure plan. Mr ? Paul ,planning partnership. The effect of the Selby coalfield erm is felt on specific areas of land. And as er Mr has pointed out, er some parts of the district are not affected at all by this issue, other areas have already been worked out. And doubtless other areas will be worked out before there is a need to start on site. The subsidence which occurs as a result of the mining in any event is very limited and has been able to be taken into account quite adequately on other developments within the Selby District. And because this issue is clearly so site related, it seems to me it cannot possibly be looked at at a strategic level. And the appropriate way in which this matter should be considered is through the local plan when you are considering a much er more limited range of possible sites for the new settlement. And for that reason I believe erm it should be deleted from the locational criteria in terms of the area of search around Greater York. Can we ? Michael Michael . I I consider that that this does assist in general location. Quite ob quite obviously cos I say so in my evidence. Erm it is a the the impact of the new settlement upon the worki the workings of Selby coalfield are recognized by British Coal. British Coal haven't made their position quite clear. They consider that the new settlement should shouldn't be within the wi within areas which would affect their future workings. It's a matter obviously it's a matter of weight to be given to it. But I I think that it it is a matter which is legitimately it should be legitimately included within the the structure plan as an important factor. Now obviously the weight we can we can debate on Tuesday. Mr ? No? No? If I could just make one further comment please, Paul ,planning partnership. The existence of the Selby Coalfield has not precluded substantial development within Selby itself. Indeed British Coal erm have current proposals to undermine Selby town itself. And for that reason I don't believe this is really any form of constraint on new development which could obviously be built with er appropriate foundations to absorb the very slight movement that takes place when undermining occurs. Peter , North Yorkshire. I I really don't want to make too much of this chairman. You you're aware of paragraph thirty one of er M P G one. There has been some concern expressed by British Coal on this issue. Er and it may well be as Mr has suggested that when we look at it it is not a problem. But I think in fairness to erm complete the picture shall we say, I really think we ought to er we ought to be looking at it. But it may well be as Mr suggested that er there's l there's gonna be very little difficulty there. Thank you. Any more comments on that one? We're running slightly behind time but we're doing very well. Does anyone have any additional criteria, they wish to add. No? Can I can I just raise a question er to r to clarify the point before I answer your question that I are am I are we to assume that in response to Mr , erm it's on the record that there's a er a request to add, clear expression of local preference I by local planning authorities? That's his request yes. In that case I don't need to repeat it. Thank you. Mr . I think that one point Er . I think one point is not allowed for in the criteria and that it is of relevance. If the new if the new settlement proves successful, it will have an impetus all its own and therefore it will not come to a full stop in two thousand and six. There will be a natural tendency for expansion to occur thereafter. Therefore in considering the degree to which any er area can assimilate a new settlement, the size which it must reach subsequent to two thousand and six, should be considered in addition to the size it expected to reach by that date. A valid point Mr , yes. I'm not sure sure how we could build it into the criteria of But it's it's a point which would obviously have to be borne in mind in terms of the str you know, the planning process. I think Peter , North Yorkshire. I think we talked about this yesterday, I think and certainly my view was that th s that a further increment onto er a new settlement would be one of the options. Erm of course two thousand and six is a consideration that we ought to look at once a new settlement location's identified. Er I think I share your view there's some difficulty as to how we would actually accommodate in er in the policy. The implication of that could be one of two ways. Either, that long term flexibility beyond two thousand and six is a relevant consideration, or it is not. And I've lost the second one. It obviously wasn't important. It's getting late. Well Ah yes, the second point was, is that a consideration which is determines location in strategic terms? Erm I think I'd support the first point that we we're obviously er all in favour well the County Council is certainly in favour of flexibility in terms of addressing the post two thousand er six scenario. One of those options would be a further increment on the existing erm new settlement. Erm I'm not too sure on the second point. My tired brain is trying to work out a response which it's failing to do at the moment. So I don't think I can help you too much on the second one. But in fact it could be looked at in the light of criterion nine, which is free standing, well removed etcetera Yeah. thereby minimizing any adverse impact. Yeah. Mm. Whether it would still continue to be free standing and well removed in terms of a second er second increment. Mr . , D O E. Er on Mr 's point about the preferences of the district councils sir. While that's clearly the most important consideration for each of the districts over the next few months, while the selection process is going on, er bearing in mind what's said in P P G three, we regard that as axiomatic and I I find it inconceivable that the the department would allow any new settlement to proceed nowadays without the agreement of the district council. If that is so, I would then say that by the time you get to the modification stage and the County Council has published a proposal for the general location, I therefore think at that stage the need for the criterion has disappeared, so it may be that the approved policy will not need to contain such criteria. Point taken. Mr Paul ,planning partnership. Erm I have one other criteria which I would suggest you'd need to take into account when considering the general location of the new settlement around York and that is to the need to what I term in my er planning submission, to plan for success. Erm in my view, it's crucial that the selection of a general location should be overwhelmed by these technical considerations. It's very important in my view er because the new settlement will be primarily dependant on private sector funding which in itself is dependant on the uplift in land values, erm that the area should be one in which developers wish to build. And that obviously creates the uplift in land values which finances the social structure that would be set in terms of the operational criteria for the new settlement. So I think there is a need to plan for a location where this new settlement is going to be successful, recognizing that failure to attract appropriate er private sector interest will mean poor quality design and social provision which will obviously detract from the new settlement as a place to live and also undermine its role in terms of the Greater York area. Now we have taken advice from several chartered surveyors and indeed the developer of the existing Clifton Moor industrial estate on this issue. And their very clear view based on their long and practical experience of the Greater York development market, is that a location South South West of York is more likely to be a successful location particularly for the employment component of the new settlement, than any other sector of York. And I would ask you to have regard to that erm when you look at the technical criteria which we've spent the last couple of hours looking at. Thank you very much, we will come back to that on Tuesday morning. Er thanks for your patience. Can I remind you that we'll be looking at er two D on Tue Tuesday morning. That'll be starting at ten o'clock. We'll have to conclude at one because the we have another issue in the afternoon. Erm if we overrun on Tuesday morning, then we have spare time in our programme for a week day. Erm I just put you on notice about that. I would hope that we might be able to arrange it but obviously if it is er out of the question, then we'd have to try to rearrange it some other time. But I hope it might be a spur to some positive discussion, Tuesday morning er and terminating absolutely at one o'clock. Yeah. The alternative of course is that we could reconvene later on Tuesday, if the hall is available. But er let us see how we go Tuesday morning. To put you on your mettle. And can I remind the district planning officers I am looking for a positive contribution from you on Tuesday. Michael Michael , to to assist the panel, after we received 's paper on on on the erm coal workings in Selby we have act we faxed that over to British Coal for their comments. I'm now just got their comments now, and it may be helpful if I enclose a copy to er whoever may may wish to have a copy to be looked at over the weekend . Thank you The the the good news for you the good news for you is that if we erm run out of time on Tuesday morning, we can have the hall all night, Tuesday night. Thank you very much, have a good weekend. Right now listen folks. sh sh sh sh sh. Can I remind you please if you're answering a question can you please put your hand up so I can select . Some of you know Now way back a couple of weeks ago when we were doing the group seven the one that's spelt F C L B R I A T. Hands up who can remember what any of those stand for without looking on er You forgot the first rule put your hand up. Right fluorine is the actual element fluoride is the stuff that's in? Toothpaste. Toothpaste very good. You never put your hand up. Right C L Please sir is chloride Chloride is the is when it's joined up with something chlorine is the element. And what do we get chlorine in? Swimming baths. Swimming baths to? To take away all the nasty To kill the germs. Well it doesn't exactly kill them kill the it's got it's own smell which sort of tends to mask the smell but it's also basically to kill the germs. B R? Bromine. Bromine very good. And I? Iodine. Very good excellent. S so what I want you to show you this morning is how we can actually make the chlorine. So the people at the front yeah if if you come up a little bit closer. Now sh sh sh sh. Please Now I've got erm a bottle which is actually contains some chlorine here but it's not called chlorine liquid. I'll scratch this. Hydro Chloric. Chloric. chloric acid and it also says C O N C. Conc what is conc short for? It's short for a word yes. It starts with C O N C. Anybody? Conc is short for? Nose No conc er it's the beginning part of a word. If you use the word conc you're just meaning your nose . Conical. Ah now we're getting a bit more scientific. Conical if it was conical it would be C O N I conical. But it's conc. Now can you think of a wo c think of a word that describes the state of this liquid. And I'm going to hold the top while I show you. It's rather oily and it's quite a a dense liquid. Is it dangerous? It is dangerous yes. I'm gonna get some goggles on in a minute. What do you call liquid ah I'll give you a clue. What do you call a liquid that's very very strong? Concentrated liquid. Thank you concentrated. Now I Goggles on time folks. Now in this particular case I'm using a tap funnel Tap funnel just as it's it's Erm the concentrated acid you don't just sort of pour it in and run away and leave it to it. Let it in a little bit at a time. Just slow Slowly let the acid in. Then turn it off. Right now so the tap is to control the speed at which the acid goes in and if there is any gas that's in there it can't escape out of that pipe again it's got to go down the other pipe. So it's a safe it's a safety feature and it helps control the experiment. So we control the speed at which the acid goes in. And once it's in there it prevents the gas from escaping. Now at the moment the black chemical that's in there is not doing a great deal. The black powder's just sort of gone to a a sludgy paste . The powder's just gone it's dissolved a little bit but it's not really doing much on its own. So in order to speed it up a little bit we might need need to heat it up. Who said that? Me. Well done. Now who's going to go next door to get the gas switched on? What? Right Listen again sh sh sh sh sh. Done it. Sh Now in order to help this black powder to split up the acid. We're going to have to heat it up a little bit. Now again I'm treating it carefully I'm not just sticking the bunsen underneath and blasting away at it. I've got the Graham wanted to well unfortunately Graham this one's a bit dangerous so I'm having to do it so if anything goes wrong it's me that gets it and not you. Well because I've got all the dirty chemicals Sh. Please. Erm How will we know how will we know if there's any gas escaping? What. What's this paper? P H paper. P H paper. So I'm going to moisten it. Because of the gas that's drifting around in here What? The gas can you can you set fire to it? No it's not a flammable gas. But it is poisonous so if I start smelling it I'm going have to switch the cupboard on to suck the fumes away. Lorraine. Now this P H test I've only had it a few seconds and already look what it's done to the paper. Where I've wet it what's it done to it? Turned it yellow. It's turned it yellow and where it was dry it's now going what colour? Red. Red. Red means it's An acid. an acid. And because this takes what do you call something what do you call something that takes the colour away? Bleach. those are old pieces of paper. Come on somebody what do you call a chemical A what? Not a neutralizer. Andrew? We call a chemical that takes that takes Now you'll see it. What colour's the gas? Green. Right it's a green gas and it's also what it does it to this paper turns it acid to start with and then takes the colour away it is a bleach. Bleach gas. Now because it was frothing up I've turned the bunsen off to control the reaction it's slowing down again now. And you can see the colour. What colour's bromine on that list? Black. Black. What colour's iodine on that list? Black. Blue. Not it's not blue. Purple And they're all poisonous and they will bleach this the be this is probably the best bleacher. This is highest the highest up up the list that we can do. We can do reactions from F too dangerous. Now sh sh sh sh sh sh. Now this one I'm going to show you this one this time. Karina? Mm? Why do we use the tap funnel again? Cos we've got a tap funnel. so if there's any gas Yeah right it can't get out it has to go down the pipe. Sir? Stop shuffling. Sh. Can anybody oh I bet you'll never guess this one. Why have I got a conical flask instead of a round flask? Here's the answer. The round flask is broken. Erm I've go some purple crystals believe it or not. now this one's a bit more powerful this purple chemical. Shouldn't need heating up. If I put this white if I put the white paper behind the flask, can you see the gas that's in there? Yes a yellowy gas. Yellowy gas right and Sir? Yes? Is that flammable? It's not flammable it's poisonous it's acid and it bleaches. It could yes in the in the First World War er they used It would But how long would it take? It depends how much you got into whether you had asthma or not. You might you might have after you've s had some of this. Now can I explain this part over here look at this. Sh sh. Er right I've got this contraption upside down leading into a a trough of water. Can anybody guess why? There's something else that this gas does in water. If you'd got enough gas it would make bubbles. But we've only got a small supply remember. It may do . What do what do things normally do in water. Sometimes they move yeah. Anything else if you just put some Right they sink or float. What else do they do after they've either sunk or floated? Rust. They might rust yeah. Or turn to a well what do you call it when they turn to a liquid. What's the word? They what? They liquidize. Liquidize. They liquidize but you can liquidize things by heating them up that would liquidize them but in this particular case you just mix them with some water what's the process called? To turn it into It's called what? If you stir some sugar into water. Dissolves. It dissolves okay. If this gas if this gas dissolves too quickly it'll suck the water back up the tube and into this flask. It could be dangerous because if you're sucking water into acid you could have problems. So Lorraine I've got this upside down funnel and that prevents the water from being sucked up. How do I know I've got some chlorine in the water. Well look what's happening to these test papers. They're not acid any longer what's happened to them? Mark what's happened to that that test the P H paper there? It's all gone white. It's gone white what's the pr what's the pr what do we call it it's been? Bleached. Bleached. So I've got some bleaching yeah smell you can smell that bleach. I've got some bleaching chemical. Wave it past your nose you don't sn Don't don't just I'll just wave it past your nose. You don't want to much cos remember it is er poisonous. Anybody else want no? You want a smell? Right. So sh sh sh sh sh let's just sum up. What was the liquid we started with? What was the liquid we started with? Erm oh that conc Concentrated hydrochloric acid. It's got chlorine in it. We used a black chemical to start with but in order to that to help that we needed some heat. And this one works on its own this purple chemical is more powerful and works on its own. Adam can you go and turn the gas off? Right now I don't know Mr. 's trying to book some. What? Erm science trips. Where to? Somewhere in The Science Museum in London? No no no erm somewhere in Yorkshire. Somewhere where? Somewhere in Yorkshire. Er yes a gas gas gas fired power station . Right can you go back to your places. Right now Sir have s have you seen Pride and Prejudice and the telly? Can you look after those folks. Well well did anything happen when I put the acid in? Did any any of you three see what anything that happened in the first one. so we had to put some a bit of heat in. Nothing happened acid on its own. Now we got . Let's Right excuse me. too small. Erm does anybody know what this M N O two business is? Have a look on your your periodic table and see if you can work out what M N O two. You should know what O O stands for. M N O two anybody? Nitric oxide. Something oxide yeah. Part way there come on M N have a look on your page one of this module. Work look up what M N stands for. Anybody worked it out come on M N O two. Magnesium. Very close but not quite right. Not magnesium. Have a look look very close it's not mag it's No oh that's capital N this is a little N M N. That's it right. M N Oxidizes Go on read it what is it? Magnesium. No have you looked closer. Manganese. Manganese manganese oxide. Please. There you go. Manganese oxide erm the back row decided. Manganese oxide. Erm Excuse me sir thanks sir. universal liquid. Or a piece of universal paper or . What does K M N O four stand for? What does K stand for anybody work that one out on your periodic table. K for anybody remember cos we've done this group. What's this paper paper called? P H. Yeah that's P H. Yes it is. No not chrome. Anybody what's K? Potassium. Well done. Yes I know because it's come from an old an old word an old . Er K potassium yes. Erm then we've got a manganese K M N O four. It's got two metals . How which one's got most which one's got most oxygen in it the K M N O four or the or the M N O two? M N O two. Why? That's a guess. Well look at the numbers. M N O two K M N O four. Oh I thought K M N O four. Yeah why? Cos it's got number four. It's got four oxygen atoms and that's only got two oxygen atoms. Well done Michael. So K M N O four's got more oxygen. Erm what does this word property mean in number four? Property. Now you're gonna tell me a property is something that you can Yes something that's good about it very good. So what's what what are what's chlorine got that say no other gas has? It's a germ killer yeah anything else? Er. How would know it if I brought a jar full into the room? Smell it. Smell it. Right erm what else. How would we know a jar was full compared with an empty jar. Just to look at if the lid was on. You can see it. Why? You can smell it. No we've the lids on this time. Sir it was oily and you can see it. No that was some drops of acid that you could see We're trying to work out what the properties of this gas if you're not listening you won't be able to do number four. It's smelly it's yes it's poisonous yes that's a property good. Another one? Mm that's a use not a property. What colour It's yellowy green yes How we doing folks? Good. Sir I've finished. Right goo you know that erm acid thing you were doing this one be finishing that off. I dunno I can't remember. You marked it. and have you done a key Yes. Well a key should have a little bit at the bottom to say what what's it stands for. Oh you've done that red ones, yellow ones, where's your yellow ones Your key doesn't match your chart. You've put green ones and they're the metals . Your green ones are the alkali earth metals. You've got this all all wrong. Tell you what I'll get you another one. How are we doing ladies okay? Number five oh Can anybody tell er on number five why we got the upside down funnel. No. Now come on this is a check of who was listening Why have I why have we got that upside down funnel? Sh sh sh sh. Sh sh er no. What does the gas do to the water? Mark Mark Mark. It does but it might also do the gas might do something else as well. Turn the water green. How could it turn the water green what would it have to do in the water? Bubble. Come on we're going back to this shove it in water business again. Oh it dissolves. Dissolves stop it from sucking the liquid back again. dissolves to the stop the liquid from being sucked back into . The gas dissolves. the gas starts to come off when I just put the acid in. Yeah so you've got to heat it up . paper some P H erm Darren Darren sit down please. that funnel right now how did we control the speed at which the acid went in. With a tap. And then once all the acid was in if you left the tape open what would happen to the gas? It would just escape so we sh close the top and the gas has got to . Down the tube and into Yeah down the other tube and into the what's the thingumajiggy? What do you call it that tall cylinder thing? Thingumajiggy? You'll never guess it's for collecting gases so we call it a Gas . Gas jar. Not far off. Oh. Now come on. Speed it u yeah cos the black powder wasn't powerful enough. Can anybody tell me why the black powder's not powerful enough. Look at the shorthand for it M N O two it's not got so much? Oxygen. Very good it's not got so much oxygen. So you've got to give it some heat to help the oxygen to work. Now if anybody's finished and is wondering what to do check through and make sure everything is up to date. And then I've got some work here for those who thing everything's up to date. So don't start this work until everything else is up to date. It's on the end of this . And if anybody's been away and has got or has got missing sheets I've got spare sheets down here. Question sheets Don't forget your acid posters by the way. Or you getting another one. It's Right I would. The only problem is I haven't got many colours. You'd you'd do better to use your own colours if you've got . How are you doing okay Dean? Oh right well you need Oh not again. Right who can tell yes go on Michael. To let the acid in. To let not out to let what in slowly. The acid in slowly right. It lets the acid in slowly and once the acids in what does it stop next? Carbon dioxide So whatever's in there can't get out up there it's got to go through another pipe it's got to go through the other pipe. Two two reasons. To stop the gas from escaping and to let the acid in bit by bit. Sir? Yeah. Er you could put P H or universal or any antacid indicator. Sir Properties who can tell me a property of this gas. Look at it in through the in the fume cupboard I can see one from here. Green. It's green right good. It it's a bit misty alright fair enough that's a property. Anything else? If it can fall down out of that pipe into the jar it must be? Very good be heavy. If it erm sucks the water up if you're not careful it must. How can it suck the water up by? It hasn't actually done cos I put that funnel on the end to stop it from doing it. Yeah it would cause a vacuum as it dissolves. So it dissolves obviously. Have you got the smell one have you put the smell smell one down. Smells of? Swimming baths or bleach or You can put some universal indicator or erm P H paper or To stop it from sucking because it dissolves too well It's like you in there drinking drinking er coke out of a straw if you you suck enough It'll all end up in your mouth. If you just put a pipe straight in the end of the liquid it would suck the liquid up. Right Darren if you've finished the qu To s stop from sucking up Now who's finished? Number three you could on the filter paper I've out some of those P H test papers. You could put universal, P H, litmus anything. Oh yeah probably we don't stop just cos you're not . Are there any I've got the index out here if you want one. I'll thank 'em all very much then. Oh fine you want to thank them now. Can I thank you all very much for being cooperative. You could assess them on on on that, and just say right I I think you're a and A or a B on this particular booklet. Mhm. Because I've done it, with you. I mean, that's no reason, but we shouldn't be sort of saying, well look let's not, lets all not do this booklet now Mm. and I think it's something that we ourselves should look at. Yeah, I I just wondered because there are some of them that don't have any relevance to national curriculum and I want to Why? I just thought maybe, you know, sort of miss them out do level one. Do another type? Do level one and level two, the ones that you you have to do and if there's any time left at the end of the year do the ones that that you missed out. That are left , aha. Yeah! You know that Ah you know are, are non-essential. I'm sure that, would the would they be flexible and and and look at, I mean certain things you know rhombus and parallelogram. Yeah. Do you really feel It's just that that that's terribly Yeah. important? And it,the there are some of the extension that are much more appropriate. Yes, we don't, yes And some of the children never ever get to the extension booklets! Have you do you think it it might be better for some of the brighter ones to stretch them, to go through the whole lot do you know what I mean? Instead of just doing all of one A you know how yo , how you follow the the the map? Yeah. To do, go through and do the extensions at the same time, follow the topic straight Mhm. through. It would be Do you think they would Sometimes it is, yes. It would be it would be better for them than doing all the extensions together cos doing all the extension booklets I know. together is really hard! I don't think it it is It's hard. and it's erm I don't Mhm. think it's very meaningful to them. Yeah. What I've, what I've tended to do is to do two B and two E Together? together. Mhm. That mi , that might be more Aha. sensible. Well I haven't, you see but I I've thought about it and thought Yeah it would be a good I've done idea. I've done that, cos what I've said to them is well it's, it's too much for you to do all the extensions together. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. If you do two B and two E, and two E and three A. Mm. Mhm. And mix them. Yes, so you, you would you would look Cos three A's easy isn't it? Ooh , ooh yes! You would look at one A and one B Well that's it, they find that probably together a doddle don't they? would you? After doing er Oh! Sorry? One A and one B so so yo yo or or would you have all of yours completing one A before they started on one B? Well have you got Or do you that map? Is it in there or not, the map? Yeah it's in it's in that the that. one. You know, the map that we've got all or not? There. You mean with all the Aye, it's not in there is it? Aye, the one that, the one that we printed out. Is it? Yeah, that's it! No, that's er It doesn't give all them No, it doesn't. Er Mm. I don't know where the map came from originally Mhm. but it wasn't in this book. Well the , I me , it does follow across doesn't it? Yes. From one A one B That's two A, two B That's it. and two E, so that That's right , yeah that shows that one. Mhm. Yes, you see the the they're suggesting that when you've done area one that you might like to Aha. go on to multiplicational area. Aha. And that, if you've done erm bum bum bum digging into history that you could do coordinates and coordinate patterns. Mhm. Well it's, it's not so much a suggestion it's more that you can't do multiplicational area until Oh yes! you've done area one Aha. isn't it? Yes. Yeah. But I think the link-up is suggesting that Mm. you could Yeah. just follow on there. Mhm. So really the they're working on the whole scheme then er Well from one to four aren't they? Some A of them, do you think it'll I I tend create problems I tend to sa sa to say right you know, one A and one B are all out together. Oh yes, that but that's but once they start well I didn't used to, I used to have one A at the beginning but of course, it was impractical because the there weren't enough booklets to go round. Well I mean a all the reasonable kids don't do all No. the numbers one, two, three, four, five anyway. So No that's but you still have to take care in case somebody says well I've just done fractions two, and you say but you haven't done fractions Yeah! one! You know ! Aha. Mhm. Yeah, but I mean the bright ones do the the bypass sheet they have the fractions one, and they The fractions and the don't do that either! Yeah. Yeah. Yeah and if you block it all you're gonna get some kids who will never go beyond number. Yes, the ma , the ma They won't experience They might and they No. might concentrate No, I me yes, no, it's not practical to do the whole lot but to erm But, well certainly lo one and two you could couldn't Mhm. you? Mhm. See, you just use your own judgements, some Yeah. some kids, you know I mean I do I don't think that as a department Depends on the ability of the child. we should start saying this is what we all do. Yeah. We we do Mhm. Mhm. what we feel we want them to do and Mhm. what see it seems I think it, this is whole scheme is just a case experimenting and trying things with different work By the time we ge By the time we get it right Yes, after about ten years ! the scheme will be redundant or we'll have retired at That's right ! you know, but er that's what it's all about. Yes, you'll go and somebody'll come in a say, oh I don't like this and get rid of it ! Yes, when I retire somebody'll say well we're gonna do, smile now! So you're not bothered if at the end of the two years they haven't even Reached level four the best kids haven't reached level four? Because I would have working three lessons a week some of mine are scarce, sort of struggle to onto four. Mhm. I'm not saying that I wouldn't say Mhm. I'm not bothered but I would be happier if they will very familiar with the work that they have done Mhm. rather than Mhm. race through But you might find that it's the booklet. it's easier because you missed some booklets out,. Yeah. You wi they will have had support and yo you might say we're gonna miss little things out that we've already covered on or are not relevant anyway erm I think we've just gotta wa , just got to see how it works and A are we going to decide what we think can be missed out? No, I think, I think No,, yeah. I think you yourself can decide what you want to miss out. From what you've taught in that third lesson Alright. really isn't it, a lot of it? So,we we're looking there at a a a reasonable amount of sort of extra work but I I think we will find a benefit from doing that. Mm. I say, we might Part if we sort through all the work sheets we've got we might find you know So Yes. some quite a few Are we going to try and get some work sheets? I think one of our first that we can we can jobs all use. Yeah. Mm. Are we also going to try and match those up with the attainment targets, so that we can say they've completed a work sheet successfully? Mhm. Yes. We can give them something. Yes , we'll put that on mhm. Put it on their record? Yes. And we could, if we've gotta collect evidence we could use those work sheets as evidence. Mhm. And we've also got Mhm. yes,we we've got to look at this in in in in the assessment er procedures as well but we've go we've got to try and link this up with er the the the computer work that we're doing erm we we've got I I I think really we we should have possibly a reasonably hefty session one evening next week to say right, how are we going to put this into practice? Let's, you know I mean Judith's saying, well I've got some good work sheets on this, I mean we can all say that if we all know where the work sheets are Mhm I think hoiked most of mine ! No but I think I've cleared Mine are pretty dog-eared Well yes, yes I've think I've had Oh I've got loads! I had a damn good clear out I think most of mine have gone. Hundreds! I might have a copy of some. Well it seems pretty pointless, me sort of saying oh here, you know, they're never gonna get the hang of negative numbers and Judith saying, oh I've got an excellent work sheet, and you think well, you know Mm. if I'd known about that that would of great! Mm. I think if we all know what's available it would, it would be a lot easier than, than just operating as as you know, five separate units. Oh yes, I think so for that, and, so then we've gotta bank our work sheets Mhm. what we keep in the then, just all to use. I mean it's not gonna be, it's not gonna be easy but if we start developing it erm there's no reason Mhm. why you know, it shouldn't work reasonably well. Go and get my down and get a bit more room. Right, well we've only got erm not much more than ten minutes left erm, I'm ri I'm well we've got to be we've got to be early for lunch so you'll need to go It's only across there! Take us ten minutes you'll need to go to walk there. and shower and such like. And change ! Well you can stay here till twenty five past if you want that's up to you! Erm am I right in thinking that this after , that this afternoon your I'm, I'm technology for the rest of the right. for the two days And I'm somewhere else. It's just us two we're gonna do and you're our assessment you're looking at graduated assessment? Mhm. Okay. You won't be around for the other sessions No that's me finished. aye, is and I'm not how many sessions are there this after ,da do we have a session together this afternoon or not? Yes. Yeah. Well yo you're not just just the three of us. Is there only one session this afternoon? Mhm. Two there's the one with Judith and I and then you join us for the last session. Right that's fine then! So we'll sta er you do erm graduated assessment this afternoon, then we'll start looking at erm, our assessment procedures we , you know S M P national curriculum and I mean, if you're not around you know well I can't do the presentation. you know Aye. What presentation? Aye. Don't know about a presentation. Yeah, I don't anything about a presentation. Mhm, well you will when you're sitting in front of the staff tomorrow so don't So erm you know,wha what else do we feel I mean,tha that's that will take up this afternoon,wha what else do we feel is you know vitally er, important Ooh, how about a jacuzzi? so I should remember remember that there's a, you know it Having a jacuzzi! I do ju hey ! There you are. That's Judith er er speaking jacuzzi first! Wasn't me! The head, the head has said he wants er a duplicate copy of this! Has he? He he's slipped Right. me a few quid to give him and what have you! Right Judith the ja jacuzzi for Judith, right. Erm well in actual fact er S M you know, S M P er erm national curriculum is is gonna take us an Forever! Mm. so Well look, if if you're wanting the next thing to do, I mean you've done that for seventh year Aha yes. Is it not worth sitting and thinking what you're gonna do with the eighth year? Some of the things for eighth year, oh yes! Yes, Yes. But I do I think that would be very useful but we've got to make sure that we get this assessment started, so, if we don't get round to eighth year then that's tough! Mhm. We've got seventh year, sorted erm I think we've gotta look at the assessment. Now,we while you're here you know wha just to sort of ten minutes erm I mean Ian's produced these sheets Yep. which we can photocopy Mhm. now now basically what we're thinking is that no, we're not thinking, we haven't really got round to that! But I I would feel that that you know we we must be talking about July when we sh when we present, when we produce erm one of these pieces of paper. For the present year seven? And eight Yeah. or just Yeah seven? Seven and eight. Sorry , one of these pieces of paper? Well one of these records. National curriculum records. Oh right! Now, I don't know whether what other people would, would say about doing it the way we're suggesting like somebody has completed levels one A, one B, and two A, therefore they've got this and perhaps Mm. a few odds and ends added to it? You're wanting to produce a certificate for the kids is that what you're talking about? Well, not a certificate, just a record No just our records! just the national curriculum Just a record! They're records! record sheet! Who, haven't got it . You not seen them? No. Ah! Oh ! Look at this, straight in the briefcase Oh! and it's there! No it's not! Oh I've got my national curriculum in here as well! Erm Did you hear, that was Alan just making it I wondered where that had gone! Hadn't I lost it, no? No, I did definitely bring it. Well look why don't you just sketch it out on there so I know the sort of thing that yo oh, you've got one have you? Ian's got me one! Hey, Ian I'm glad somebody's organised! Oh! Do you want the old one or the new one? The newer one. Right. Right yeah, I knew This is it. that you'd done that because I started it as well on the computer Right well I've done it all the way through. Right fine. Right up there to the yellow books. Right. So what are you wanting from me? Right, so wha what we're looking at is you know we we would have that Mhm. now, you're gonna get anybody with that, but let's suppose that you did have somebody that was really there we want that blacked out really Mhm. and we would need to have national curriculum, name, date and so on which Mhm. I mean, just a few odds and ends that you could do from your nice Mhm. printing on the computer Mhm. now, what we would say like, if somebody has erm you know, by the end of year seven done that Yeah. right, this would be the national curriculum record so we'd have something, but I don't know that it's wise to No. to really have that in to say look you know, to make it that obvious. Well I mean that wasn't in for that reason. No. It's not Oh yeah! I wasn't thinking ahead to a final document. S so we would look at that and you would need as well to be looking at Blacking in what, levels one li and two little bits and anything else that we and anything else we're saying that there we're going to cover Aha. on there. But I mean when you think how long it was taking us taking a blank one of, and I know the One of them. attainment targets have changed, but a blank one of those, and colouring the damn, ooh sorry Pete! The er, things in erm you know, I mean, that was horrendous! Why? Well it was me that did that in the first place Yes. for the other one so I know! It has to be remembered as well that this is my interpretation of the blurb that S M P have sent out. We're happy with your Because interpretation. I mean the first time at a lower level something appeared, I shaded half a square That's what I Yeah! did! and next time it appeared Yeah. I shaded the full square Yeah. in, now whether that's right or not I don't That's know. that's what I did, and I I thought the same thing. Really, what we needed to do was to read through make sure that it was covered adequately but on the other hand, if they've come across something twice and not if i , if it was in brackets I didn't count it, did you do Mm. that as well? If it was just in brackets then I ignored it Yeah. it had to appear twice properly Aha. before I coloured it in. Yes, I mean the other thing is if we are absolutely honest, which we shouldn't be with a microphone in front of us but, if we're absolutely honest, you know this, this is a bit of work that we're trying to make simple Aha. when is anybody going to come and make use of that? The o the only thing is that when the kids do the sats Yes. Right? Aha. And they are given a level from the sats how are you going to record that on there? Mm. And how are you going to record ar are you still you see, you can't use colours, if you're gonna do it that So way this would just be dated and then er, by year nine they would have er, a nineteen ninety three one, a nineteen ninety four one, and nineteen ninety five one. Right, so you need a year as well? You're going a Really that you need a space for dates. Are you going to explain to me this afternoon how this works are you? Well if they've finished one A, you photocopy that. If they've finished level one A. You give them one of them. You photocopy that with their name on. Oh! Oh, well that's good! If they've finished one Yeah? B, you photocopy that and put their name on. But we're not, but we're not going to da , we're going to do it one by one next July you will say where is a kid? Right And then you just say I've got five there'll be three A who have finished one A get a three A sheet out their name on. then you get a three A sheet So you won't need all the others? No, no. The on , the only, the only Oh right! that you still either gonna have to fill in anything else that you've covered with them Aha. And attainment separately target one. That's the one. Attainment target one. But, even then I was thinking that we might, in actual fact, start looking at attainment target one and certainly fill in, you know Mm. the first, I mean there's Mm. no way that we could Level one I think are we, are we ignoring level one and level two what, I, are we ignoring the stuff that comes primary school then? Well, it'll be interesting to have them, but I mean It'll be interesting to have it, but I mean we you can't sort of we've got to asses kids on that. assume that they're at that level when they come to us and follow on from there. See I sometimes wonder whether it's not worth giving them some kind of er a proper test. National curriculum test. When they come in The beginning. Mhm. Mm. and saying right well you're at level Well that, that was another thing that we did debate Mhm. should we in actual fact produce Give them give them time to settle in. Well we we should, well yes because I suppose eventually we could have them fo , we've got one now haven't we, for the end of year eight? Aha but if you Well we can it off the end of year seven and one for the begi , for next year so they Well no if if we wanted to we, we could produce erm a level three test. I mean when they when they do the sats What i , what's what is it we've got now? Three, four when the and five? when they, when the a the, when they do the sats then we'll, we'll have something that we can trust, won't we? When they have Well, mm mm! public sats. Mm. But it, if if we wanted to to change what we've done already we we could at a certain stage have a level three, I mean I've I've ordered these books, you know mathematics level by level Mhm. so we've got what we've already got and we could produce i it it just worries me because we're going, we're going back to eleven plus days you know! Mhm, I know And saying a lev , you know Well they are anyway cos they've been doing the test at eleven! Ya, well that's what it is isn't it? In But different levels we we could have a level three test that they could try. Mhm. And then we could say, well yes this confirms what, what we've what we've said here . Well how do they get the levels in the junior school? How did Mrs do it? Erm Ooh, tick sheet isn't it? Sorry? It's a tick sheet isn't it? It's a , mhm. Yeah but some of them have had sats obviously the ones lower down. But I mean, they But, but then they're insisting on kids, they're they give them a problem which is a typical level four or five or six or whatever, and because they get that one problem right they say that that kid is a level six Oh! You know,ju just So I mean tha that's looking at one Aha. single aspect for you know But, but the other thing about giving them a standardised test at the re , when when they first arrived with us, is when you get the parent who comes and says well how they were level five in the primary school and you've only given them level four? You can say, well I'm sorry but on our tests Mhm. when they arrive in school in September they were level two and they've now moved up to level three. That, of course is that, that of course is the the problem of national curriculum it's your interpretation of of the national curriculum and there is I mean, if Judith says a child is level three, I would accept that but if somebody from Spring Garden said this child is level five, I'm certainly not going to accept that without evidence that I have ! Yeah, but what I'm saying is that , yeah, but what I'm saying is when the parent comes to you and says well the primary school said they were you can say well well yes but by by our standards and our assessment when they arrived here The the problem is that that they were that , and they and this is pre the progress that they've made The thing you are saying about The parents are going to naturally assume that you're a if you're at level five at one stage the ones you buy in a shop I've heard of six that you would either remain at level five, or go up to level six six is the . which is not gonna be the case when they transfer from school. So you can six. I know, I know! At regular intervals,, but when you get to higher But at least it would give us some because you could say well yes, there has been progress, erm primary school might have said you only have one level five for all and like,did was three. Mhm. I would think so. And if they, that's what you say that they're doing Well more or less. They di di yo Erm er Ken, could you er just give me an outline of what what happened? What's happened to you. What's sort of going on since the last time I interviewed you. Which was about Er is it two years ago now I think. Is it two years? Good Lord. Er that time we we was living in Bay wasn't we? That's right yes. Yeah. Erm we was living in the High Street I believe. You were. Yeah that's right yeah. Quite a nice place actually. Er yeah. That was only a t a temporary temporary house. Er we managed eventually to get a a erm a flat off the council. We was in a two-bedroomed erm council flat but they were intended for old age pensioners like you know. Right. So that again was temporary. Erm I think we was there about nine months. It wasn't a bad place but er a very small one you know. Erm from then we got a council house which is where the wife's living at the moment. Erm I think I think we'd have been there about nin No. About a year when we decided to split up. So consequently she's living in Bay and I'm living on my own in up in Holyhead. I moved back to Holyhead and been living in a bedsit since June. . Er and I got the job at the Centre in August. Erm went back into photography, that's basically all that's happened to me. Er did you s w w when er when I saw you when you were living in Mhm. Erm you gave a a very full account of the sort of pressures that erm you were under because you didn't have a job and you related it to the necessity of involving yourself in what you euphemistically called the black economy. Erm er you've you've indicated that er you've separated now from your wife. Yeah, that's right. Erm do you think the fact that you didn't have a job, er contributed to that in any way? Er that's a hard question. Erm I don't think it did. I really don't think so. Because we're both level headed people and not having a job was obviously a big thing in our lives and I'd indicated to Anne that if we did move away, I would stand a much better chance of getting a job. But she preferred to stay up here with her family and her friends. So I then told her that if we were gonna stay here, the chances of me getting a job were very slim. So she'd have to face the prospect of me being on the dole for a long time. And she says she preferred that to to us having to move away. Erm, I took her at her word, I still looked for work, I didn't stop looking for work but I took it that she was happy enough me being on the dole if it meant that we could stay around Bay or Anglesey. Erm we didn't have any major pr er the major problem was was money. That was the only that was the only problem associated with not having work. I kept myself very busy anyway erm in various erm hobbies that I had. So she was ne er I was never under her feet. I'm not the sort of guy that sits around the house like you know. So I was never under her feet or any of them sort of problems that a lot of people find. I find that friends of mine who are unemployed, their wives tend to th tend to think that they get under their feet a lot. They're never away from each other, erm whereas myself I was always out. And er I'd come up and stay with my brother in Holyhead about two or three times a week. Er overnight like you know, er when I was doing my work at the centre, the unemployed worker's centre. When I was involved in various projects I'd stay overnight so, I'd be out of the house at least six hours a day. So it was just like I was working really except very poor wages like you know. Erm I think the the biggest problem we had in our marriage, and the reason it broke up, is because er I'm a a mixer and I love to get involved. And Anne isn't. She's the sort of woman that likes to stop at home and watch soap operas and and gossip about this person, that person and the other person. With her friends like you know. Erm and when she was talking to me about different people, I'd never know who they was,because I was never I was never that interested in Bay to er to find out who they was or to remember she'd point out somebody and say that's so and so and then when she'd mention him a couple of days later I'd go, Who's that? You know? So I'd never get involved in the er in the gossipy side of Bay life. Er consequently we couldn't talk about anything. She wasn't interested in my photography or er whatever I was involved in the centre. And I wasn't involved in the gossip in Bay. We didn't stop talking like but the talk s just sort of stemmed around the house and the kids and it didn't go any further than that. Although I tried to get her interested in hobbies, she just wasn't interested so. And I put that down to the biggest contribution. Just a lack of interest in each other or . You did express some er anxiety if I remember when you spoke to me about erm not about not providing enough Mhm. for the for the family. We were you ever under any sort of direct pressure to keep the money keep it coming in for for whatever ? Erm Th it seemed to fluctuate. There was pressure at times like er coming up to the start of a new season. Obviously there was new school clothes that was needed. Erm the mot pressure erm from that for that sort of stuff was was came form me. I felt I had to I When I went to school m my father couldn't afford very much and erm I remember starting the first term of first day of the term with shoes with a big split in it. And the headmaster taking me on stage and showing everybody what a bad example I was, because I had shoes like crocodiles. And that that made a big influence on me and I swore it'd never happen to my kids. So the the biggest pressure for that type of thing came from myself. I always made sure my daughter had new clothes to go to school with like you know. Not just but in g in good order all the way through the year. So consequently at times there would be er periods of stress for myself, where I just had to get enough money to give my daughter some new clothes like you know. And then there'd be clothes for Anne. Anne liked to feel that er although she wasn't a teenager any more, that she was at least smartly dressed as well as the other women in Bay like you know. Myself I never worried about I was one of the biggest scruffs you've ever seen in your life actually. Erm looking back on the photographs. That was taken in the last few years, er I j I I've never bothered about clothes in my entire life. What I look like. Since I since I left school and I was able to afford my own clothes and I knew that erm a responsibility for my own clothing was on my my own shoulders, it has never bothered me since, for myself. but it always bothers me for other people like you know. Erm but no real stress. Once Anne had accepted the fact that I wasn't gonna work in the foreseeable future, and it was her choice that we stay, cos I gave her a clear choice, it was either move away where I could get work, or stay and suffer the wages of the dole like you know. And once she'd made the choice that she wanted to stay, no matter what the consequences were as far as money were concerned, well that was it. I didn't worry about that too much except just these periods when say a bill'd come in or clothes were needed, something like that. How did you solve the problem then of er of providing Erm a lot of it was working on the side. Er that is what you call the black economy yeah? Yeah. Er when it was needed it wa it was always needed in a hurry. Although we had we had warning that erm obviously that you knew the kids were gonna start a new season in September, you'd start saving the money and a bill would come up. Something would come up, you'd need the money. Now I think I told you last time that er the whole time me and Anne had been together, we're not drinkers. It's very rare we go out. We both smoke but er I smoke roll your own cigarettes and I and half an ounce lasts me a week. So it's not a big expense like you know so that we weren't spending the money on ourselves, it's just needed in the house and needed for the kids like you know. Erm we didn't waste money in any way. But when it when a bill came up and it would take away the money that we'd saved for Kelly's new school uniform, so it always seemed to come in a rush and there was always something needed like you know. Like next week you had a week or whatever, and then I'd just go out and er ask me friends wh who's hiring whatever. I've done everything from working on a building site for a week and promising to bring me cards in and giving a false name, to er potato picking erm doing hay, anything. There's a lot of it around there's people just A lot of people these days see the working on the side is a necessity. And it' not just the people who are on the dole but the employers too. The local farmers erm, building site contractors. They see it as a necessity. I was talking to a guy here now, erm who comes to the centre, about er two weeks ago. And he'd he'd been on the dole er I think two years, and he's just started up a a building site. a contracting business, and he's done it by the skin of his teeth. But he's done it he's sold his he's mortgaged his house up to the hilt and everything. And he won't employ he won't employ full time workers. He takes somebody and gives them the work on the side. And he doesn't pay them any less than he pays a qualified man. Than he would pay a qualified man. He just won't do it. He says the guys on the dole need need the work. He says, I'll give it to them. I see. But he won't take anyone on full time for the simple fact that just takes one guy off the dole and and makes his life good. Whereas, taking him taking one guy a week for a week, is putting no-one in jeopardy and giving somebody a decent wage for a week. He says, I'd rather do that. So when when you s use the word n necessary Yeah. you meant that they thought it was a good thing to do. Yes? Erm not a not a a good thing to do when I when I said necessary,without it a lot of people would er I don't know er aggravate I don't want to make it say more drastic than it is. But myself, I'd have had to send my daughter to school on m more than one occasion with a tatty uniform. And by working on the side wh which I say as very necessary to get her that uniform. It wouldn't have made any difference to my daughter's well being, but it made a hell of a difference to her erm her social standing. To the other kids. Wh which is a major thing. Th this impression that I got or er erm that incident at school, played such a big part in my life after that, I was mortally embarrassed for the rest of my school life. By that one thing. Everybody knew that incident. Everybody used to call me crocodile. And it stayed with me right until I left school. Even though I changed school halfway through. Erm our school was pulled down and three schools amalgamated into one big co comprehensive. And before the end of the first term everyone knew me as crocodile. Even the other two schools you know. So it's a thing that stayed with me for a long time. And that made a big difference to my life. Erm to my self respect and I just I was determined that it wasn't going to happen to my daughter, so in consequence I saw that working on the side to get to get the uniform so that she could go to school in a new uniform same as all the other kids as a necessity. Er it wasn't a a good thing it was just necessary. And a lot of people that I've spoken to who've had problems have turned to that alternative because they could see no other. If I'd have gone to the to the social services or er the D H S S and says to them, my daughter's got to have a new uniform to go to school with because her self respect is gonna suffer if she doesn't, they wouldn't have given be nothing. They'd have just turned round and says, Well we can't help that, I'm sorry. So I just went I knew I did the only thing that I knew I could do. And that's work on the side and hope to get away with it. And touch wood, I've never been caught. You said that in the nature of things you've always needed the money almost as of yesterday. Yeah. Erm so you have to get work fairly quickly. Yeah. When you er I mean you're in that er situation, how do you cope with the idea that you need the money, you need the job, but you've got to somehow sell yourself and get employed on the best terms? Yeah. Well obviously you compromise. Erm the most important thing was getting the money. So you didn't haggle. At all. If a guy I mean I've worked for farmers I I actually worked for a farmer once from seven o'clock in the morning till nine o'clock at night for five quid. And that wasn't the first day, that was eight days er eight days solid from Sunday to the Monday following Monday. And I worked for him for five pound a day because we needed the money. And there was nothing else going. And that guy took advantage. He knew I needed the money and he knew he'd got me for for a he'd have got me up at six o'clock in the morning if he'd have needed me. No problem at all. I was actually living on his farm at the time. And he he used to get me up at seven o'clock, come to work for him. He used to get me up at six to go in work for seven. And if he'd have needed me at six he'd have got me up at five. He used to give me an hours warning and then we'd work through until it got dark out in the fields and then we'd go into the sheds and restack the hay or whatever he wanted to do. And he'd make sure he used me till about nine o'clock. He just knew he had cheap labour. I couldn't argue with that. There was nobody else to turn to. You know there was there was no other work going at that time. So I just put up with it, and worked it. And we got the money. Was there ever a moment when you f when you were striking the bargain if one could call it that, Mm. when you when you knew that he'd got you by the short and curlies? Oh yeah. Definitely. All the time. You knew that he knew that. Oh yeah it was so obvious yeah. Erm this guy that I was working for h he's er he he was quite well known for it in the area. Erm that he w he he he knew that you needed the work. And consequently that's why he only p I mean I'm talking now about oh about four years ago. Which is erm No I'm talking less than four years ago, I'm talking three years ago maybe. And all the other farmers were paying the guys who were working for them on the side, ten pound a day, for working from nine o'clock in the morning till about five at night. And yet this guy was paying me f er half that for tw nearly twice as many hours, yeah. Erm he just knew it and he was well known for it. He he was the last resort of anybody I knew. But if they needed it, they knew they could always get work with him. The guy was taking on ten people at o he he had ten people working for him in one day. All at five pound a day. And all working long hours. I've never heard of anyone working the hours I worked but then again I was living there and that was my disadvantage. He could get me any time. And he knew I didn't have to be home for the kids or whatever, he knew my circumstances so well and he knew th exactly how much he could use me you know. And he wouldn't let me go at nine o'clock if he thought I hadn't have been knackered and ready to fall down you know. He'd have kept me there longer than that. So in fact he knew that he was known as the last resort I'm I'm not so sure that he knew he was known as the last resort. Ah. But he knew he was well known for knowing that he'd got you. And when when you come to him, you were desperate for work. So he he probably did realize that he was he was the last resort, but I don't think he was the he was the type to actually think that out you know. He just saw you as cheap labour and that was the end of it. I don't think he actually thought about it. Otherwise he his conscience would have bothered him I think. He was a terrible guy. Since I saw you last, has your has your girls gone to secondary school? No. She's still in er still in the small school. Mhm. Erm Wh wh wh what other means did you use to ensure that there was this you know, the family circumstances were kept up to par? Erm well we sold things. Did you? Yeah, we've had to sell things now and again. Another extreme last resort. And that was the extreme last resort. Erm oh God, she sold the wedding rings. But that was quite early in the marriage that was. Erm we've sold endless tape recorders and Hi Fi's. You name it, we've sold it. We've had to. And then we've basically the only two The only thing I haven't turned is crime. If you don't call working on the side as a crime which I don't. Erm I've never turned to stealing. it's been uppermost in my mind a few times but the I daresay I wouldn't go to prison the first time. But you'd to me you don't you don't turn to stealing to do it for a one off. If you're gonna turn to stealing, then from then on it's gonna be not the last resort any more, it's gonna be one of the first resorts because it pays so much quicker. And in in the circumstances I'm talking about where I would work on the side, then it's always gonna be erm turning to the quickest resort, rather than the last resort you know. So stealing being a quick resort, you'd I'd f I I know for a fact I'd find myself turning to it firstly and not lastly. Which is wrong and I'll end up in prison. And that's where I don't want to be . And I've never wanted to be. Although I have been there myself. But not for stealing, for erm something else. So er I can't think of any other resorts I've turned to. You No. you you talk er you know, when you were saying that you'd erm you'd sold an endless succession of of things,wh wh when you bought things, er you know when when you were married,it was there always that element in it that it was here for a just A short while. a short while? That that used to be mentioned between us er er a few times, I can remember it being mentioned a few times. I wonder how long we'll have this one. Erm er I think it wasn't really a problem. Erm it it could have been a problem if we'd have both been so me materialistic that we wanted to keep everything we'd got hold of you know. But we knew that it was probably inevitable. But we knew that also that erm if it had to go, I t had to go. I if it was necessary then it would go, same as everything else. Everything else would go too. Erm but one thing I would say, is that erm we didn't go into long term erm debt to get things like three pieces and and bedroom suite and things like this. I suppose we could have pushed ourselves and got these things, but I think we both knew that erm if we did, we'd probably have to sell them halfway through paying for them. And end up the same circumstances we was now, er with out the stuff that we'd we were paying for for the next six months of the year. So this was mentioned in fact, I think at one stage. We had so many conversations about about economy and all this er can't really remember. I think it was mentioned once. When er when the time came that you decided that er y you and your tape recorders whatever, had to part company, how do you how would you go about trying to get the best price for them? . Erm I don't think it was it was that difficult actually. Er being on the dole and having friends who were long term on the dole, we tend to buy from each other a lot. Ah. So all you'd do is you'd cast about for a friend, you'd decide on a price that you would accept and if it was a friend, if you had to sell it and you needed fifteen quid to buy a pair of shoes or whatever, erm and you'd like twenty, you'd turn to a mate and go, Have you got twenty quid? and he he'd say yes or no. If he says yes, then he's holding the tape recorder, if he said no, you'd say, Have you got fifteen? And er he'd maybe say yes and he'd get it for fifteen you know. But I've always had at least ten friends who are long term unemployed and we've always bought each other 's stuff. You know he I I've even bought m my own tap er no it was a wireless. I had erm an eight ba er eight band wireless which I bought for a hundred and twenty quid when I was working. Erm when I first came out the army. Paid a hundred and twenty pound for it. I sold it once when I was skint for fifty quid, that was before I was married. Erm and while I was married I bought it back for twenty and a few months later I sell it for ten pound. To the same guy that I'd bought it for twe er for twenty off. Mm. So you know. And he'd bought it off his friend who'd paid fifty for it. So I couldn't I couldn't charge him twenty cos he'd only charged me he'd only charged me twenty so I had to sell him back to him for a tenner you know. But er this hundred and twenty pound radio was knocking away for a five quid in the end er I er I heard. And it was an excell it was an excellent radio. It really was an excellent radio. That's just the way it goes you know. So er there was er a market for there was a market for all this? Yes definitely. Amongst er really a a small group a relatively small group. Yeah, erm of course er some some you'd sold it to you might have other friends who you didn't have as friends. Yeah. So it would slip out of the group. Right. You know. Erm but like I say w er I'd have always had about ten friends who I would buy things off and they would buy things off me and they're all on the dole. It's very rare you you'll find actually somebody who's working who would who would buy these things off somebody unemployed because they'd expect too much off them. You know? Er like if I was selling somebody who was employed, I erm I had a radio, if I was willing to accept twenty pounds off a friend of mine who was unemployed, I'd expect thirty of a guy who was working. I wouldn't charge I I I'd try and get as much as I could off him cos he was working. And he'd know that and he m he probably wouldn't buy it off me. Because he knows that somebody else has has been offered it for twenty quid . Or at least it will go for twenty quid in the end if he doesn't buy it. So he won't buy it. That's what I've always found anyway. So when it came to er I haven't really asked you whether you found the process of selling painful. But I just assumed that it was. Yeah? Not at all. Wasn't it? Never never been that attached No? to things materialistic, no. Do you think the blow such as it was in s s selling something, was it would it have been softened because you s there was a you knew the people you were selling to. I mean if you had to take it along to a shop and Erm that's fu it is it's a funny question that because I've never never liked selling to shops. I've always much preferred to sell it to friends. Erm so I suppose you could be right. I suppose you could be right and I was feeling an a er an actual blow but not something I've ever thought about or never put into words like you know. I've never actually thought about that. I couldn't really have done it. It's not something I would have considered. I've always I've always felt If I thought it was necessary then that's the end of it er as far as I know. Er I haven't realized any any feelings of erm you know er sadness over selling it or anything like that. It's always just been necessary and there it goes you know. So you could be right I don't know. I don't really know. Erm when you er had to stock up again wh wh h h how would you do that? Where would they come from? Erm usually, new. We'd buy new. Even though we'd sold it for a ridiculously low. When we were flush again and we could afford something, you'd get it from a catalogue or whatever. Erm we'd just buy new I suppose. But occasionally well not occasionally but quite often, at least once or twice a week, you'd hear of somebody who is in the thieving business, they'd got something for sale and you could get that quite cheap. And that was another source of stuff. Erm that might have been as well another reason for selling to friends,erm because most of the stuff we bought anyway was new so that doesn't really come into it. But if it was hot, or semi hot, we used to sell it to friends anyway, we wouldn't sell it to a shop. Cos the same thing still apply because most of the stuff was new but we had of hot stuff over the years like. Which is another another for of necessity. Er as I see it. I'd never turn anyone in that turned to stealing. Unless of course, they stole from people I know didn't deserve it. Mostly shops and not as easy targets or not as deserving targets but just as targets. If they started pinching from old people and things like that Erm were you under any er any any pressure to accept erm g g goods that had been acquired by indirect roots? Erm No. You weren't at all? No. I mean they there was a fact that they knew you were unemployed er or wasn't in any s You were yours yourself a target. Yeah. Erm I wasn't aware of it. I wasn't aware of it at all ever. I'd just be offered same as e most of my friends and other people that are une were offered. Mhm. And you ei you had a chance to say yes or no. If you said no, that was the end of it. Erm the only thing I've I've never considered buying hot is camera gear. Er because the I say photography is er something I'm gonna ca continue with and if I start buying hot gear then I can't use my equipment where and when I'd want to. You have to be careful where you're taking it and all the rest of it. So er I've never considered that. I've found myself under pressure to say yes, when somebody's brought along a nice new spanking camera and er I just c couldn't accept it. But no-one's ever put me under pressure. Not that I'm aware of anyway. You er last time I saw you, you were I didn't know whether you'd been starting up in er in photography but you had been next door I think or I'd seen a lot of your stuff. Yeah. But you you you w you w you were getting into it and you had high hopes for developing your work. That's right yeah, I was also er doing a bit for a guy in at the time. Erm things didn't work out that way because he found he was er could do cheaper himself. Well not so much cheaper cos I was most of the time I was doing it for nothing anyway. Erm he got his own interest er and in the end he decided on all his own stuff like you know. I suppo I suppose it was cheaper in a way because erm he found himself in the shop a lot more, he couldn't afford the staff that he had, he had used to have two people working for him. He had to let one go so he was in the shop a lot himself. And there wasn't really enough work for two people. Erm so he set up the corner as a darkroom and started doing playing about with his with his own black and white printing. So er I fell off with that one. Erm I lost interest in photography f er after a while because the er the photography at the centre, there's always been ever since I joined, there's been six of us who had er a l a lasting thing with photography. There'd be other people come and had we'd show them round the darkroom and teach them how to print, how to take pictures, and as soon as they knew how to do that, they'd fall off and go away. And we st we tried to start up Well I tried to start up erm a sort of self help workshop where we all we got materials off the centre, they supplied the materials. We went out, we took photographs, we come back, we printed them up and we helped each other to learn more techniques and whatever. We all read books and passed on what we learnt to the others. There was only two of us that showed any interest at all in that and that was the guy that was working here, he was running the photography and myself. The rest of them just e didn't put anything into it at all. And er I just lost interest all together and stopped doing it. I was I used to come up here every week anyway, cos I had friends here but erm I never er I didn't take pictures for months and months and months. So that really fell off. And it's only just just lately since I split with the wife er I took a couple of months to sort myself out. Cos although it was an amicable split, I still needed time to settle down and get used to the fact that I was on my own again. Erm kids. And sor sort out which direction I was going. And after I got the job at the centre, erm that took up a lot of time for er a few weeks till I settled down. And then I r I realized that the job was only gonna last a year, cos it's only a year job, so the best thing I can do is to go all out for what I wanna do when I leave the centre. So I'm using every resource I can a at the centre to push my photography at the moment. Hoping that by August next year, something'll come of this photography and I can walk straight into a maybe go to a college or if that isn't on the cards, into some sort of a technical lab or something. Something that'll keep me going in photography anyway. I don't think I'm good enough to set up on my own. I don't know what August will bring but I don't think so. But at the moment I'm really pushing on the er erm portrait photography cos I'm quite good at that. See what that com see what comes of that. You s you you said that you're using every resource Mhm. within the centre How Yeah. Yeah . Erm what I'm doing basically is er putting on as many exhibitions as I can using the centre's name and making sure that I've got a good amount of my work in there, although I don't push anybody else out. They don't really contribute as much as they could, so that leaves me with an awful lot of space. So I push as much of my stuff over as I can. Erm I used the centre's resources like the phones and that for phoning round. Er the various exhibition places asking about that, and making sure they all know my name. I write them letters, I get people to send er like Photo Gallery in Cardiff, erm I rang them up, they were sending us stuff and it was addressed to a woman that used to be in the ph er activities officer about fou three years ago. Or even four years ago, four years ago. And nobody bothered changing it, because the stuff's still coming in anyway, nobody's changed the name. So I rang up and changed the name to my name so that sh sh the women who runs Photo Gallery in Cardiff, now knows that Ken runs the photography group in Holyhead, so she knows my name now. And she rang up here when when they offered us the space, she rang up here and asked for me. Which is a step in the right direction, she knows my name. So th that's that's the sort of thing I'm doing. And the place is used a lot erm like the local Trade's Council meet here, and I make sure that I open up for them. Cos they meet on an evening that we're not used. The centre's not used like next Wednesday, they're coming here. And I make sure that I'm here and I open up for them, and I make them a cup of tea. So the local Trade's Council all know me and I think they all like me as well, so. Anyway I can push myself forward with the local people and w an anybody with anything to do with photography. That's what I do. Using everything I can get. I've also I forgot to mention when you said i has anything happened to you? I also have done some work for the local papers as well. I was at one time er the ph printer Not the photographer but the printer for erm a free hand out paper called the Islander. I used to do all their printing for them for their photographers.. just needs to be erm back again. Yeah I was doing their printing for them and er I've also taken a few shots for the Chronicle. And one or two for the Mail. Erm so that way as well like you know. You said that erm Photo Gallery, is it in in in Cardiff, Yes had allocated you some space. That's right yeah. No Is it a pr is it a prestigious Yeah it's very prestigious actually erm er a local photographer who was helping us to run the er the photography workshop we call it, not a class because we we we don't teach formally, we just work together and help each other out. Erm he is a very good landscape photographer e er in a same style as Ansell Adams who's his hero. And he does very very good work. Excellent work. And he does twenty by sixteen prints you know, er which he tries to sell. He isn't selling very many, I don't know why. Erm he wrote to Photo Gallery and asked them for er an exhibition date and they gave him one in nineteen ninety. So for them to actually come and ask for our work to be exhi er exhibited there, is excellent. But it's not just erm it's not just this unemployed worker's centre, they're asking ten they want ten unemployed worker's centres throughout Wales to contribute work. But what we're doing is making sure that ours is gonna be the best there like you know. That's what we're trying for anyway. Cos we haven't seen the rest yet. But er that's what we're hoping for. But it's v er everybody's trying to get in there. Erm lots of new photographers exhibit there and lots of the old established photographers exhibit there. Er Fay Goodwin has just had one there. Oh yes. So you know. And at the moment we're on the ninth of this month, I received a copy today they s they sent me some material, erm they've actually been given photographs by people like er Ansell Adams, Fay Goodwin, er David er Bailey. Couldn't remember his name. Good God, he'd never forgive me. David Bailey er they've all given prints for them to sell to help the funds out at the ce at the er Photo Gallery. So that's how prestigious it is like you know there. Everybody uses it. And a lot of people go there to have a look. A lot of the photographers you know. So it's a it's a good place to be. No doubt about it. So you've got the er somehow the idea of a career has formed? Yeah. Erm I wouldn't say it's an idea, I'd say it's a hope. A great hope. I'm hoping to do it. What I what I'd really hope for is to be able to do it without having to go to college and just do it by experience but that's I'd have to be awful awful good. Especially as I don't like colour and I only like black and white. I hate colour photography. Erm I don't just hate the thought of doing, I just I don't like colour photographs at all. They don't do anything for me at all. I I love the tonal range in black and white. So erm I'm hoping to be able to do it, just off what I can do,m my experience as it is like. Or what it will be by the time I've finished this job. But it's it's a it's a hard field to break into. it really is. And I think the most I'll get out of it, at least for a few years, is local portrait photography. It'll only be after I've m met a few people and photographed them well, that maybe my name will be start to be mentioned around That is another reason for courting the Trade's Council and any other councillors that come in. And th any other bigwigs that come in. I er I court them a lot. And when when my technique has improved, because I I've as I said, I've just started getting back into po portrait photography, and I forgot a lot of what I learnt before. Now when that's improved enough, I'm gonna start asking these councillors and that if I can take their photograph. And when I've done a a spot on photograph for them, when somebody else is mentioning a photograph, you know, er to go up in the Town Hall or whatever, er they the local mayor has just had one done by one of the guys in the workshop, and I know for a fact I could do one that's ten times better than that. But I haven't said so obviously. You don't do that sort of thing. Erm but I'm hoping that one day he'll see I know he's seen my work and I think I've got a sneaking suspicion that when he came in here he was gonna ask me to do it. Erm but he got he got sidetracked by this guy, and they were talking and he he mentioned a photograph, and he got in like you know. I w I wouldn't swear on that but I think that's what happened. Cos he was looking at me when he come in. And he was moving in my direction, although I didn't know he was coming in for a photograph. Erm and it was only afterwards reflecting on it I think he was coming to me. Er cos he had seen he had seen two or three of my prints. But he hasn't seen the rest. And I think that once I've taken e a few of the local bigwigs, then when they want a photograph taken, my name'll get mentioned somewhere along the line and they might come to me. I you mentioned going to college or or rather not going to college. Mm. Yeah? Erm is it something you want to avoid or so or not? Erm I'd re I'd really like the the experience and the knowledge that I could learn at college, but I'd like to take a short cut too. I'd like to work in photography now instead of you know erm going to college and spending four years at college. I don't see it as a waste of time, but I see it as erm, as may be an as a a n a necessary delay. I do see it as a delay even though w I'm gonna learn and my technique'll improve a hundred percent. I'm just hoping that I could learn as I'm as I'm earning you know. Well not earning but learn as I'm actually working in photography like. I'd like to work with with er a good photographer, rather than go to college. I reckon I could learn a a lot more. I dislike I dislike the idea of learning in a in a formal class. I like the idea of learning on the job you know. That appeals to me a lot more. But it's hard to do. You s you you've indicat er you you've sort of g given an impression that er this er this the centre h depends if you want to get a lot out of it, you've really got to sort of work at it quite hard to er bring it up to anything together. I d didn't quite understand that. missed a word there. In the sense that er you say that you had a camera club Yeah. or Aha. Erm but it really depended, the persons who really got the stuff out of it was just two people in the end. That's true yeah, that's because the others weren't willing to to put in. The s working at the centre I I can tell you that one of the especially being the activities officer which is what I am, one of the biggest problems with the centre, is not being able to put things on, it's getting people to be interested in them. There's an awful lot of apathy in Holyhead. I used to say beforehand but I wasn't as totally convinced as I am now. I am totally convinced that the people in Holyhead want you to put things on, pick them up at the door, drop them off, teach them how to do it er and drop them back again. And that's the only way they consider going. We've had to cancel five classes that we set up erm in November. Five different classes we had to cancel because nobody turned up. Er one of them I was running myself which is on on maintenance. Er which is a something that a lot of people mention to me. You know, er, Oh I wish I could learn how to change a p put on a plug properly. Or change a fuse or mend a chair. Whatever. So I've done all this, I'm quite a handyman in the house, so we talked about it at the cen at the centre here and we actually asked another guy to do it, who's erm sixty odd and he comes in here everyday er and he was willing to to start it or to run it. And we was gonna when we saw the interest, when the when it was proved there was enough people coming, we were gonna buy him the tools for that, to do the job properly. Erm, the buy who was gonna do it, unfortunately has eye trouble and er towards the beginning of the start, quite near to the start his er eye trouble picked up a lot more. And he he couldn't do it, he couldn't concentrate. So I took it over, no problem at all. And I was running it and the first week I got there, and one guy turned up. And he turned up because he turns up for everything. No matter what it us you know . So I taught him how to change a fuse. It took me two hours to cha to teach him how to change a fuse an and erm w w wasn't only how to change a fuse but the correct fuse for the the correct appliance like you know. So I taught him that the first week, and the second week we went back and there was still only him, so it I taught him how to rewire a plug how to do it properly and er went back a third week and he was s still the only one there, so we went through it again, see if he'd picked it up and he hadn't so. Now he can ch he can actually wire a plug properly. Which is a Godsend. Because the way he was wiring them to start with, would have killed somebody in the end . So he got something out of it but he was the only one that ever turned up. And I went there four weeks. And nobody turned up for it. And yet eve er quite a lot of people had mentioned it and it was well advertised. One of my jobs here is to erm is to sell the centre in a sense. And we use newspapers, we don't use the television because we can't get on it. Er I actually make, whichever comes up, I make a poster for it, and I blitz the town with them. E there's hardly a shop ion Holyhead you can go into wh which hasn't got one of my posters in it, for something or other like you know. And usually for all of them. Which is a lot of posters. Erm and just people just they just won't come. They just don't like to get involved in something which is ongoing for a few weeks you know. The main thing seems to be sport. The young guys will come for the sport, the young unemployed. Erm but if this trend continues, I can see them shooting down the activities side of this this place and just using it as an advice centre. Cos there's already a a s a sport's centre. And er . And if we're doing the same thing, they're gonna s sooner of later they're gonna click and they're gonna say, Well you know, that's too much of a good thing like you know. Shut one of them down, it'll probably be us. See it coming. It's a terrible place this. You've erm you've you've indicated that er you you used the word a apathy. Is I mean i Do you think it the fact that there is it is an area of high unemployment has anything to do with it at all? Erm I really don't know. I couldn't say actually. It's it's something I've obviously thought a lot about. Because my job depends on it. M My job depends on getting them in here. The more people I get in and get involved in classes, the better it's gonna look at the end of the year. Erm I've obviously though about it quite a lot and I can't figure out a reason for it. I can't say that it's high unemployment be I don't know, what's unemployment got to do with it. If they've got free time . Yeah. If people are gonna sit around the house while they're unemployed, they're probably the same people who sit around the house when they're on a Saturday and Sunday when they're working you know. They just don't do anything with a Saturday and Sunday. I've known loads of people who who are working full time, and they come home Friday and the go out Friday night, stand up at the bar, and drink twenty pints or whatever, ten pints. And they they they go home and they don't move out the house until Monday morning. terrible people. I don't know I just can't understand what drives these people at all. I couldn't live an existence like that. I've got to get something out of life. You know besides the fact that I I wanna work when I'm when I'm not working, I still like to to get out the house and get involved in something. Otherwise you there's no point. I co I couldn't I couldn't go to work Monday and Friday, Monday to Friday and then spend all the weekend in the house and then just go to work Monday to Friday again, and do that week in and week out. There's no I I can't see what's in life for em at all. It's terrible. But that's seems to be what a lot of the people round here do. I know for a fact my my own brother, and I mentioned this before, the last interview. He spent seven years just sitting on his backside in the house. And he ruled his house with a rod of iron you know. Every decision that was made in the house was his, his wife had no say in it. Er he said what was gonna be cooked for tea, he said when there was a cup of tea made. His house was in his entire kingdom. And he didn't want anything else. For seven years he didn't want anything else. And then he moved to Holyhead. Erm and he started coming to this centre he he came to the centre once or twice with my other brother for some advice I think, welfare right advice. And then he bought a computer to use in the house, nowhere else like,s it was still his house was his kingdom. And he found he couldn't handle it. So hearing there was computer classes here, he started coming and he didn't like it and he stopped. And then after a couple of weeks he still couldn't get on with his computer, so he came back. And he stayed, and now he drops in here most days of the week and he practically runs the computer class in there. And he actually mixes with people which is something he's never done. That guy has never mixed with people and yet now he just he mixes with everybody . So this this centre has actually changed his life. And his attitude a hell of a lot. But like I say for seven years he just sat and didn't want to do nothing. And a lot of people are like that. Has the has the centre in any sense erm political linkings? Erm again that's a hard question because I'm thoroughly non-political, absolutely non-political. Erm I know for a fact that Peter who who's the supervisor erm is a staunch Labourite and er union man, same as Geoff but neither of them push it. Er the centre's supposed to be totally non-political and if it ever got political, they'd close us down. The same as they did with the one in Bangor, they closed that down for being political. Er some of the comments political I suppose yeah. But there's no erm there's no sort of political influence at all. That I can see. But me being me, I could miss it. Because it goes straight over my head anyway. If it was subtle. Unless it was out and out screaming, Let's kill Thatcher, I wouldn't even notice it I don't think. So you're asking the wrong person I'm afraid for that one. You you'd have to be very er very hard line for me to notice it. Ah yes. Yeah I'll have to go. Thank you very much Ken. Excellent. Well I hope I've been of some help. Yes you have indeed. What can I do for you today? It's me throat at the back er keep and I try to clear it and I can't. worse I should think. Is it a tickle or a pain or a No it it just feels as though You know I can't er can't shift it. Right. Do you actually cough anything up when you No. it's this horrible feeling. Yeah. Right. Does it hurt to swallow? No it just feels as though like You know how you get summat stuck in your throat? That's just Aha. how it feels like . Yeah. You don't think you have got anything stuck? I dunno. You haven't had any bony fish? Or bits that have gone down the wrong way? Or As far as you're aware? no. You've got no problems swallowing? No. Okay, chin up, open really wide, really really wide. Stick your tongue out. Ah. Oh that's interesting, let me have a closer Oh. look. Right, really really wide. Stick your Keep sticking your Keep your tongue out. Really really wide. Yes. Okay, let's try again. really really wide I won't put that in now Really who? Assembly can be quite good Oh, girls. yes Girls,and know, and I'm only joking. Er, how do you know? Are Jan and Josie in here? And, and you see, do you remember when I had asthma and went back in, oh from erm, you know er, oh,teabag. Chris? , mum's mirror, she said when you're eighteen, you could have it I thought she was married. My asthma, my asthma, you better go with him, have you got your inhaler? Have you got in the house, oh, did you, Will you get in the back of the car. yes Indigestion so I can't hear you. O K, and it's lovely No, now I can hear you, because they're over there, and they're shouting. Stop shouting. No go on. Who, who's come back from Malta. Laura Bagelle? Oh, who's with you on the bench. Yes Which means. If you say all that sneeze, and I make myself sneeze, I don't think Assuming you don't, I mean make yourself sneeze, and you don't like I've just said, I've just been speaking for a whole lesson, my voice is just I've got to talk to you to explain what we're doing, so let's quietly I'll get it, I'll get it. That's O K, it's O K, really, She said there, she pointed to it, I should know. No, I said why? No, but No, I said why, and I don't see that we're all alright? But she could come along. We changed at Abbot yes, excuse me, Are you going? Excuse me please. Erm, could you wait for him here,erm, who are you working with on computer? I don't know yet. Oh, see if anyone wants to work with me today. Come in. Oh something that Dr did you not want to speak to the team about John ? Yes I did. They're on line one.. What time will we go to Eve's tomorrow? If we left She said Elizabeth and Mat Steven gonna fetch us, about er quarter past one I think he said, have dinner round half past one he said, then We're walking we're walking up it, at We're walking up if it's a fine morning Yeah get up there some time between one and half past I didn't hear any, did you hear any weather on the news? oh yeah I will hear it tonight It'll be on again later yeah yes I wondered if David would be on bus, I saw Wendy having a he worked later today because he's got so much done on front of the er that weather he couldn't er, do any decorating outside still we never got nobbled down street providing the er canvassers They'd all got too cold and run home I expect this morning, but Yeah it was thick cold He said there were three er, down there canvassing for the main parties and er, well quite a lot of people there and of course rich pickings for, providing they can get anybody to stop and talk to them don't know, they'd drive around I expect so this is that said that people are losing all interest in the election and they've got no faith in any of parties they all seemed to much alike and all fund ranges well, er in a, in a sense it, it's, it, it been known since Who? they're talking none about the, the economy and turn up before the end of the year, this, the, the, they've been hanging on and on and on, and er slagging one another off all the time Yeah they've but er well both the Liberal Democrats put a candidate up anyway Yes, I remember seeing any Well they didn't do if they, well, be having, well, didn't have any meetings They left it a bit late didn't they Yeah really? Maybe they had problems getting it I wouldn't mind going to hear it if they do have a meeting Well she's er, I don't know whether she still teaches, she did teach at Corby Corby , yeah I saw a bit in the paper well if she still does it didn't make it clear, and she lives at Knilton Where's Knilton? Well it's near I've, I've never been there, I mean years back when we went cricket in the football one, we, we went to playing football, but in those days Corby steel works And you're only a village And you're only, still a village Yeah yeah, but it's a, a fair size down, but er Middleton I've never been there, I don't know where it is, but it must be near Corby that worth finding on the er map What? We can find it on the map Yes I expect so To tell you the truth I've never heard of it No I just think that, there weren't many small villages in Northamptonshire that er well I didn't hear of, if, you know, I didn't know of, even if I hadn't visited them, but erm Wonder if she'll be staying in Wellingborough, at least she'll have to travel Pardon? a lot to this constituency during the next few weeks won't she? Did she what? I wonder whether she would be staying in Wellingborough or No telling, how she's got to, we all obviously she has to Well these days in a car it's not many minutes drive is it Yeah, no, no from Corby and Wellingborough makes several unless we get a usual three inches of wet snow and that'll stop everything , you never know do you? There's one thing a man No snow now Pardon? Hope we've finished with the snow now But there's one thing you've got to I've said to many years now about English weather in a sense it's, it, it, it's got a something of endearing quality, you don't like going through the bad weather, but the fact is that we do get generally good weather Yeah at times well there's so many areas in the world where they get lots and lots of er Yes you know, you know what the weather's going to be like Well you know what it's going to be like, it's sort of a set piece each, each season Yeah but er, you can't say that er the British are well we can do that we had some lovely spring, that day we went up to the park it was what spring like weren't it? Oh yeah Now it feels cold again It were March, February too weren't it? That's right Yeah, fantastic the snowdrops there you know I remember ever so clearly, when I worked down the Totexas, Dentons Mm all those years back, in the late fifties were it? It was the fifties yeah I was down there in the late fifties it was nineteen forty nine and I remember one particular February, it will always stand out in my mind because er, it's a fairly long walk done to the factory from, from here and every day after the midday meal, when I set out to walk down there as quick as I could it had been cloudy since, it was raining, every day without fail I used to get to work soaked, first What February used to be sort of reckoned for rain didn't it? Yeah The way, the way they talk about March winds it was February rain they well you see, first in yeah when I got there, several times he used to scruffle into the er packing room and come out with those two, three of those well a couple of those large sheets of brown paper that they pack, yeah, pack the few boxes in and I'm not used to that, shove them up and, but, but shove them up their trousers and pull the trousers up, expose the leg and wrap round paper around and that was a amazing was that keep and it dried the trousers out, and dried the leg and, it were lovely and cosy after half an hour or so backward a bit when you walked Aye it did, but it were a, it were a efficient way of er getting dry mm and the next day there would of this evening Does what? I wondered if David had got this evening to catch a bottle of wine Perhaps not could be the two of them they just, when er, when Lee set out on a Saturday evening with er Kevin and they often sit there and er have a, er a bit of a snack, supper, light supper and er Well, although you get a in the evening anyway don't you? Yeah, but a lot of the time have a main meal waiting probably, have a lighter snack later on, have a glass of wine with it Derby and Joans pair how old is Wendy? Is she older than David? Wendy, she's just a little bit older than David Is she? four or five years I think Ooh I didn't realize that so Dave's forty one? Forty , forty last June, he's coming up to forty one this year forty one in May? Yeah And Wendy's er Wendy must be forty five at least Ah, oh I didn't realize she was unless she was, she's quite a bit older than Dave at least she's older, but er not to that extent I wasn't very happy about it at the time, anyway, I was, her being, I think he was only when were they married? Seventy three, the end of seventy three and he was twenty twenty two wasn't it they were married? She'd already been married and divorced and she was quite a bit older than him and I, I wasn't very happy about it to start, but they seem to have settled down alright Well she's made David a good wife actually Well they've never had any more youngsters go Told me, she actually told me once that she considered herself lucky to er, have met David, I reckon she did because er, she, she was divorced then and er of course, didn't she have a son? She has got a son, yeah, I don't think she sees him much now, he did come here to that she sees much of him, he's er about twenty or more now Yeah I was surprised that er Kathleen is it, when Kathleen told us down street about her, her son He went in the army Yeah, or rather that's the older one, the one who's friend of Mat's? That's right yeah, for a little bit, I was on about the reference to er Embassy Service though He'd a, he had some sort of operation or something, it's not, but at Debbie's wedding, Andrew weren't there because he some operation on his jaw or something that, can't remember now what it, what he'd had done were having his jaw bone Oh yes I remember him, yeah, they were a bit concerned, well I would have been, and then lucky with their I was gonna say jolly lucky whether they er, whether they all turn up on Friday to er, have a word with Eileen I don't know Ah yes I think they all know he's coming now. Does Steve know? Well we told her last Oh was she so when she came up last Saturday Oh did you? Oh, thank god for that Michael knows, Michael's manager he knows, did you tell him? Yeah I told Michael, I phoned him this morning Brian knows Yes come here I've got some bits in there for her a few kittens in there for a couple of days I, so they'd go up, pick them up and they get left Well we'll pop down, oh we can't pop down tomorrow unless we go before, get in the morning, before we go to work across to Steve's, if it's fine it'll be a good walk over there No I don't mind walking if it's fine, I said to Sandra so, we take providing it's not raining we'll take, we will take that she ought to go won't it be muddy? well we know I shall go through the fields, but we can still take the short er cut through the estate up Bedford Road, by the cemetery Yeah, doesn't pass up by there? So you go through the cemetery I well, you can go through the cemetery, yes, you can go through there Well I didn't know where it was near a path and then you go well is it likely to be in the you go in at the top of the church is top of the road, what road's that running off from er High Street, South Mm, yeah can't remember Stones Lane, I'd got used to Manners Lane, they call it something quite since they've built up there, Mannings, Mannings Street or Mannings You, you put down that you escape there and yeah and that's the best way, it'll er, oh you'll save ten minutes easy, it's a fair walk it, on the main road I was hoping when they got that link road through they might connect up, but I don't suppose it, sort of roads gotta put parking towards the long piece of Oh no, it won't be a major road it's just no I'm afraid there'll be no footpath there, in fact, it hurts me a bit that because they're cutting straight, they're cutting along in line with that pub public Yeah footpath One thing if they it's nothing wrong with if they put a cycle path along the edge of each road when they build them No, they're not as sensible as they are you remember in Prestley when we went there so what er, perhaps, especially for solid places, solid with the roads in Germany Oh in Germany yes there's you've got priority there, statue and cross over. I mean it, it's incredible in we, we went to, we travelled about a bit while we were there went into Holland and er came via through Belgium and Holland just to get there, and look how tidy But before we went down into the the towns were tried to borrow a bike for us so that we could bike round, but when she Oh she probably failed to er look it's not as if there's anywhere where you can hire a bike I'm sure you know, but, I suppose you're going along on the road, across the road I course that's, that's the beauty of er biking it up the hill, that's some, there's so much scope for not being on the road, you've got special baths for someone Yeah the only one I want to know in this area is a, you can the one between the that's it they put that there when they built that new school they did that for the school children so that the children could find the school yeah and that's the only one I know of it's incredible to me either Is it raining again? No it could do in a moment or two though it er, it looks a bit ominous, you rub one or two er doubts, they are similar colour to these actually Is that, that the first one that's opening a creamy coloured one? Yes oh this Ellerdor is er playing around a bit now Yeah but it's not as spectacular, not a very spectacular sight is it? What that erm Ellerdor Oh it said in the, in the book when I read about it, it said it had green flowers, you say is that green flowers I didn't even know there were any green flowers I'd never even noticed the one next door, but the herb must have come from that No, er Jane spotted cos she said that's where the seed must have come from Yeah she said they seed freely, so we'll have to watch we shall have them all over the garden next year Oh when you , when they've flown Yeah she's cos er she said she's only got one she'd like another, and that we've got two, she should have this, smaller one down here Yeah I'll dig it out for her What time we taking I don't know, when you like, back over with you, I'll sort something out while I've got some small change in me purse now I've been shopping, I'll sort it out there's another five, there's another five Mm, you've Is there two? You've got some er, have much have you got upstairs to change? You've got er nine upstairs to change haven't you? Yes I know I'll take it when I go down to the post office and I keep forgetting, don't like bothering with it on Thursday because they've always got a shop full and I go any other day These tomatoes are a bit hard, did you know? They're what? The tomatoes you bought down the market They're what? They're a little bit hard Well there was some marked firm tomatoes, then there were the others, I had some of the others It looks more well I skinned them if they were firmer than these I'll have skinned a couple of them well these, these are, there, I mean in, they, they'll are without er, the other fruit No , the ones at the front of the store were for seventy P and they were marked firmed tomatoes, the others at the back were sixty P and they didn't say firm on them so I thought well, firm probably means hard, I'll get the, get the others, so I'll skinned a couple of them for tea Oh they're alright though anyway, I've got to go upstairs, oh I saw some nice Cox's orange on the market two pounds for a pound Mm, I to eat well these looked er really nice and ripe Oh If I worked magic, things that were tragic, would have no place beneath my waving wand. With great magicians I'll sit and converse, the whole universe would seem like a little pond, deer would swim by and as it swam by, ravage by war neglect and in great pain, I'll take it out just to wipe its poor face clean and then quietly put it back again, if I worked magic, magic Yeah, what do you think to it? That was really good, yeah, good tenner What have I, well I haven't to, I've got to fit the erm cord symbols, you know, get the sequence of cords, I've written it down you see Are you gonna piano rise it then? I, yes that's why I arrive, piano er score for it, and er it's a sort of fairy tale lyric you know, I've Very Paul McCartneyish, reminds me of him. A bit changeable but er Yeah, sort of thing that he'd be writing down it's not a bad melody, I thought I'd get it down, and record it. It sounds good But if Lisa er would be plain and have a chat, put your I think it might be a good id , I don't know whether, Lisa would like it better if you would let her know and let her get Kev talking on it, which perhaps be a better idea if she was in on it, but I'll, I'll have a word with her Yeah, have a word with her and perhaps she'll like to listen to that to the er words sort of that, and then make her own comments, it's nice to get the opinions you know, the, the many of the family as you can Really, I'm the sort and er, it helps me to, it's only a hobby, you know, but er, it's one that I've had for donkey years, I want to er keep going with it as long as I can Like somebody, somebody said on the radio the other day, everybody's got a song inside them That's true Some have more than one Well I know but I mean I, I expect it's true, everybody does well even those who er, well people who turn now, they must have, voices I'm told about work and they could er Yeah write lyrics and er well I refer music yeah, yeah, I suppose I'm what you call tone and deaf, I've got no music at all oh you were telling me, you used to Oh David and me, oh yeah Oh Dave, yeah, have you heard from Dave , you used to make Oh yeah He did it on the guitar and you were simply found a few words and yeah yeah it's true it was a long time ago but as I recall they weren't too bad, to even, if you'd have stuck at it, you'd have got better, it's the same with every job you get better at Yeah, oh that's true, yeah if you tackle it, even go out there, or wine making come to that No everything painting and decorating Even painting and decorating Dave as you say yes, we're not in the rain no no, no, why you not going to that anyway because er Well I tried yesterday, but I got wet How long were you there? About four hours came home when it rained and then it stayed dry I think it must have rained in Erchester not here though It poured, round about twelve, twelve thirty not like this like heavy No I don't record poured but like er but this, we got some solid rain we did have a bit Yeah but er, you got more, you, of course you were nearer the river Yeah that's true It's time we could do with it I know we need it, but, I would have been anywhere at the moment though Ha, about twenty inches we need, is it two months? Well, forget about that Oh, we'd go down , just see them all paddling in the well this is the most, this is the most rain we've had for in such a period, no, in, in about a week something like that Yeah, yeah It's sort of rained it's strange, because er last month and the month I wouldn't associate with rain and that November with distant fog, fallen leaves and Yeah, well just to It'll do a lot of good I mean I've put both plants out during the week, they were fairly dry then, but now if you'd see that, that, they've taken already Oh definitely this is sort of herb job Yes, this is what I mean Cor dear I wish I could Tell when you gotta have knowing Is that, that plant, yeah usually down the front there, somewhere Haven't got any have you? No, I have not Oh, what a minute, what? I, well I the erm, what er, herbs up underneath the apple tree Do what? the herbs under the apple tree, what are they? Sorry I can't, I can't see against the window The herbs under the apple tree, what are they? Chives Chives Oh sorry I thought we gave Wendy some last year Yeah, do what dear? No, he wants some Oh, I've never heard, well I've heard of it, but I've never seen it As for a recipe, you pick these recipes up and that's a stupid blooming herb This paper's Taunton in Devon Good old Hurry up then, come paying, there's a shopping precinct in Taunton, Devon Did you see the name of town of Somerset Did you see What? the name of the erm That's unusual for the Observer the Raving Loony Party member who's Paddy Ashdown Yes Patrick Ashdown Oh that's it Patrick I'm, I saw the Patrick Ashdown, I didn't know what his real name isn't Patrick, it's John Yeah, I mean it's a bit, a bit naughty in a way innit? Yeah There could be a few older people that could make it could be confusing cos people Here you get Although it does now say on paper what party they are, it never used to No but it does now, it does have a party as well as a name on the election paper Well, a lot of old folk er, I don't think they're much bothered what they say, they know the name of the candidates and they seemed to that's for the name, yeah so ,so , some of them will be confused, but not enough for them to have any problems I shouldn't have thought. Did you get I think they hold the balance at the end don't they? Oh I think getting in this er, seat it er I bet it, as regards it cut down to about five five, probably less and Freda will get in as well There's no doubt who the majority will go well most of it Powell will lose his seat but Freeman Fry will be But I don't like the way he'd er, all this, all about er how you'll be annually taxed under Labour because the truth is that even under the Conservatives, all the years they've been in, and all the years they've been reducing tax, taxes from time to time, indirect taxation increased Oh I know, you only got to look at the VAT ain't you for starters Yeah , taxation now if anything is harder than it was in seventy nine Yeah they shouldn't talk I, I, I'd would teach them to stand up and tell them the truth, there don't appear to be too many of them about these days Well it's just brought out a budget to paper over a few cracks and make it look good because they knew that, they've got no more chances this is it innit? I think Well do you think this really impress er Lisa? I'll have a word with her when she's awake, she's still on a third dream I should think at the moment but she's er, certainly good talking, I could, I could try and get her without her knowing about it and see what happens, just dinner time I'll take it down and try it, oh you're gonna take it round Steve's ain't you? Today Oh yes well you can perhaps do it tomorrow Yes, through the week some time do it a good turn if you could er Well they normally stay in now, er, Monday and Tuesdays usually Lisa and Kev stay in with us and watch the telly with us they go, he plays pool Wednesday Do they stay in on er, Sundays do they all Well generally he comes up for dinner, but he ain't today so he'll be Rhys will come, be in for dinner, he'll turn up about three, and they sometimes stay, we sometimes play game in the afternoon, board game or something, it depends Steve, you see, they often get Why, why bother about the football this afternoon? See he'll watch it and all Man City and Southampton ain't it? Yeah Yeah, don't bother me none as long as Southampton win mind you Well Southampton er can pull er Reg see where Tottenham are in the league? Pardon? See where Tottenham are in the league? No They're about six from the bottom ain't they? They lost at home again yesterday they shall find themselves some trouble if they don't buck their ideas up whether they're lacking or not Well they're I expect well they're Well it, the way they started off in that cup final, last year Yeah they're a danger to life aren't they? Yeah it's terrible really I've had him off with that first foul in the first minute, that he committed, ridiculous Were Lineker weren't playing where he? No Not yesterday? No All raving about Rob Jones down again yep afraid so can you get wound up I know,would wouldn't surprise me either Pity you know He said that's half the reason that Brian Tolbrook took over at Tettron ain't it?, I think he had his eyes, he'd got his eyes on Tettron replacing Yeah in the league he probably looked into the future a bit and decided that er yeah well it cost them a hundred thousand to do it, but, I mean he's never been able to afford the yeah and he's deciding that Adam and he's deciding that Adam weren't worth it and Yeah went for it, but well he apparently spoke to erm, he had quite a lengthy conversation with Ron Atkinson apparently, cos Atkinson used to be the manager of Tettron didn't he? And he was telling them you know what a a good club it could be, it's the ground they opened their own ground as well you see, but that was and, I mean don't, he's upset that a wound up, I mean if there was a league team like Kettering, Kettering like the fourth division, that would be brilliant be nearer to go wouldn't it? Why they all have such a large ground I've never seen it I remember going there bet it's got four star pitches after the war and there and they had a record gate It isn't a ground near a ten, near the ground size of Kettering's but they've got to, I remember when Rhys played in that, the F A bars quarter final, two seasons ago down here, they got well over a thousand down there then, and you just couldn't move, that were brilliant, all the way round the ground there were about four of five people deep there's ground, it's a shame because no point for promotion and weren't allowed to go off, cos of the state of the ground I know that but they could win the league this, this season and not go up That's right The Taylor reports got a lot to answer for really How did they get on yesterday? Don't think they played Well somebody said they're at Grantham Were they? It weren't in my paper this morning Well check it on the er back page inside got to be the they weren't in the ordinary fixed roll re-arranged you see I met an old work mate of mine he said they were at Grantham No Well they're on the though, weren't he? In the paper I saw they were supposed to been at Bury but they played Bilston, Bedford Oh, that's right, you did say didn't you? Ann's gotta take my erm thingy in, my erm what's it Game Your game oh well Windfall was it? No, no What's a what's it? erm, you, you know your computer, your thingy oh the Amstrad? yeah ye , no, the Amstrad The Amstrad? Yeah, I had a choice to take that in mm Do you want a biscuit Gem? Were yeah Oh yes, suppose so, fine dad, no er, I'll leave them on there Right-y-oh, help yourselves David's been up Make sure somebody saying what yeah work Check on the football results and that Oh, I see Nan he erm don't take them in every lesson Oh takes them in like erm turn it around every week, don't know yet how often do you do french? Four times a week Four times a week That's quite a lot for a She said, she said four times yesterday Oh Science we have twice a week, but, it's double lessons Oh So I'd rather have it four times yeah er we have do you do cookery? No Well she done a bit didn't you? You made them cakes that time didn't you? Mm She's done on birthdays you go to a swimming club, at lunch time and your mates are there. another year where your mm year ain't you? Yeah, must be later on I know Michael said Laura was doing some cookery, what was it he said? What see if I go, have I got something that Laura wanted cookery, I've forgot what she wanted now, I forget what she said it were, she was making see that bit about you, about you No not yet I've I didn't read the very far Well she copes because she had the same problem as me with her hands if she's writing for long, her hands ache, so she can write a longer letter if she types, so I said I, I didn't really, I like a hand written letter best it seems more personal somehow, perhaps they do, having a typed letter means you can send a longer one, they all mean Does she perhaps get with a, a Well I do, I write, it's now I have to ache, I, I wait a few minutes and then I, go on again when me hands had a rest Well my hands ache been in the garden last week, about Yeah , that's where the fun is If I'm holding anything, so that I'm holding the hand in one position for a long time Yeah mine do that They inject it in into animals Yeah and er, and satisfactory results oh and of course there's, there's a lot of the testing yet before they can er decide to, inject into you yeah but they think that they could er be on the way to er actually making a cure I see asthma's wound up, they reckon they've found a cure for that yeah now central what's it, been on the television about it There's now a cause Flo, it's a cause , they've found a cause Yeah Yeah I saw something on the television today it's sitting there said they've a cause about it Yeah, yeah, yeah They say a cause It won't be long They can, they can work on it even further then, can't they, you know, to They can look for something yeah that'll be a brilliant breakthrough Well it would several of us have rheumatoid arthritis yeah I'll never, never And a on went back to my unit during the war yeah I, I helped a young girl get an old lady onto the er train mm and I, I, probably only a youngster then, well I was about twenty six or seven, but er, I shall never forget her fingers were like claws she couldn't move them they'd sort of set Ooh Oh how awful clenched lord terrible this is different from the sort that we get, it, it, it doesn't only affect older people, children get it, it's so Yeah I know crippled with hands and Well this old lady well she was Yeah terrible she was yeah helpless I mean to tell you that I'd seen old Ken Well how's he getting on? Well, he's had several heart attacks, he's been in hospital Well I knew he was going in, he told her Yeah, he's had several heart attacks How long they keep him in do you know? He were in there eight weeks sshh oh dear yeah and well what the first thing he do and he has to go in the no, no, they leave her in the home oh It doesn't seem that long they'd taken her out No he told me, he actually told me, they hadn't got a bed for him, they hadn't got a bed for him, so they looked after his own, the bungalow Anybody in his er change of health, never looks after them afterwards does she? erm They always have someone go in every day anyway There's, there's a nurse goes in to bath her everyday, put her in the bath, so then there's the home help visit, the yeah she's bedridden, she can't get out no, no, oh no, no you can claim she's bedridden, she can't do anything you know as well It's awful ain't it? Yeah But I mean er, a man in his state of health never ought to be left to look after a woman like that, but different if it's an ablebodied umping disgraceful I think it's disgraceful Christine's only my age, I was at school with her Yeah Yeah achieve don't I, but I mean we knew Chris by error, but he's got a but he don't make any she's been bedridden for twenty years now or whatever no he didn't perhaps when I see start thinking I'm getting old yeah that's old er , still yeah it's funny, you don't feel any older inside it I'm not old you, you speaking for yourself, now you know Why do you feel older? What, what you mean Well, oh, me eighty two years and you just speak for yourself imagine her when I'm eighty how I'll feel Yeah he done a real good time Gemma's got a long way to go before she gets to eighty You're not twelve yet are you? No When she goes back she didn't say anything about Kevin, it must have been a come to England, she, she said Probably see Deborah soon but er she didn't say probably make sure when she's coming anything about coming, and yet Jenny came up and told me that she was coming on Friday, er before I got that letter, got that letter the next day Oh, didn't know they were coming Mhm She must of erm got I don't know how long the letters take, when they come by air You'd think she'd got A nice little red wine It is nice Yeah very nice Oh yeah Yeah Yeah, I'd like to go And me and you, yeah take the animals with said I was gonna try and learn a bit of German before I went again Laura's learning German and she's at school Bloody, Ruth left er, were they married? She left him, hasn't she? Yeah Yeah , that's right, yeah yeah, they do these days They've erm he tried to get into the house Rhys were I didn't know But she came back yeah but couldn't get in though Well you'd have somebody had to go in with her to make sure she didn't take anything that belongs to him Well Didn't he run a market stall? Yes dad, but, apparently enough he got into a lot of trouble with the tax Oh, they're, they're after him like you know The policeman up several times The police have been up several times, you know that attache case I said the dustman found that time? Yeah Well that was something to do with him apparently enough Police came up, they've been up, we've seen them up there several times yeah, so What, been selling dodgy or something Pay your tax a day as you must Oh He's not been paying, but I suppose, with a business like that it'd be V A T wouldn't it? Yeah, I bet you Wouldn't it? dodgy stuff yeah V A T, be V A T thought it would Get paid in tax and er don't have to make any record up That's right yeah, yeah It could be direct tax as well they may not, they'd may not have declared er Oh that's correct, yeah He's probably earning you see, I mean yeah with a lock up in store and a around, yeah you'll get round do you good and well in work When Betty left, I, I He went, he went the clothes mostly had in London oh he went all over the place with that What thirty quid market I don't know whether Pettitcoat Lane, but I know he went up to London Honest, honest well he always seemed to me to be a bit of wise guy Oh yeah he is, he is long, long conversation of I've corrected her once about it er, he told me how Ah, shame that Well he's got a lot of fishing equipment and I said you're a keen fisherman then, all walk in and mentioned it in passing, you know, and he said er, yes, he said er I've started would you like one? I said well, of course I would Yeah how much do you want? But I never got one no, no I didn't expect one either so naturally I wasn't disappointed no well although he told me he'd er, he'd, well he'd had a reasonable catch he'd er, remember them, bring one up Well that's a trout we had Wendy gave us didn't she? Yeah, it was nice weren't it? But her fellow got two That's right a sea fisherman in Erchester and Yeah, yeah what's his name? mm was it, no it's Church isn't it? What? the chap at er I don't know his name I think he's name's Church see I work with a, a young chap from Wellingborough, Graham and er, he and his brother in law always went round the reservoir, Ramsthorpe, Grantham Oh I know that your dad was working Solhall Then we came out by Buckingham Palace and somebody had or the queen's home, the flag was flying Ah so Lisa said can we go in to see her She's only six, I said yes we'll just knock on the door and say I'm Lisa I've come to tea Anyway cheers Cheers Dave Is that the Well they're sparkling over Mm, they're nice They're better for you that way though ain't they? Oh You could produce them or the bananas, scrub out er, quarter of an hour or so Mm then strain the usual, and just use the juice oh use a chopper all the way oh I see it'll give you Put plenty of lime in wine with a stronger body oh How's your growing in What about that dragon trap? Too many long Haven't seen it yet Oh I mean it's not what you can tell that time we went with him, we saw the It needs don't it? oh When Gem was up here the other day she was telling us about one of them teachers who plays computer games instead of giving lessons Oh Ah who Amstrad Ah Amstrad eh? In science I think she said wasn't it? Yeah Well that's alright innit? Yeah, they were playing Batman games it's a new computer Yeah I think some of the teachers Do you like them Would you like a biscuit too with your wine? Yes please dad, you can, yes please Yeah, do you remember that time with What? bought a ticket then. Right, who's where? Doesn't matter really, don't think it matters. Well I've put the two girls on the end. Oh right No No Emily don't want it where do you wanna sit then? Here Alright well go there Alright Where you gonna sit? There or there? This one or that one? Make your mind up She's not sitting near me You'll be a rose in between two thorns there Right I'll bring a cloth in so you can get start Can I have er drink mummy? I say, go and get yourself something You'll have to get yourself something Oh, can I have wine and lemonade? No you're not having wine and lemonade Can I mummy? No You're not big enough to drink wine Can I? Can we? No Say please Can we daddy mummy, mummy What? can we? No No I said Pardon? There was in there, there's a table in there Oh you could Yeah Not much though is it? unfortunately No, if, if What? It's only about three ain't it? What? How old's your dad? Three, he's twenty, thirty seven Right, always have to ask how old he is, ah love?ah? Right, that's old I never know when anybody is, I know what year they were born, I have to count it up and see how old I know how old mummy is I'm meant to be twelve Here are I'm eight nan, I'm eight in April You'll be eight this year eight you'll be eight in May April April, April and I want, mum I want Yeah help yourself I will I know how Peas, carrots I know how I want, an onion sprouts and a bit of cauliflower I know how old mummy is, she's forty Sshh Roast potatoes? Here are, go on I'm not having carrots Why not? Roast parsnip , do you want some roast potato? No Thank you Mash potato? Please How much do you want? Pass me oh dear cat fish will that do? I didn't bring the Ben How are the roast potatoes done? Do you want one? Yeah please, I've done two each for us Why is he George, why, we'll swap over I want, I want the gravy, can I have the gravy? Oh that reminds me mum, where's my shoes, where's my diet pepsi? I, still haven't got it You get don't you? I got cake Er yeah I want What? Have a bit more, no they they've got them, cos they don't like it when it's done round the meat Yeah alright and mum and Steve got a leg so you can help yourself Don't you want some coffee? Yeah, I will have a bit Do you want a roast mum? Er a roast potato? Er no thanks Try and I'm supposed to, watching me diet and I haven't been eating roast potatoes Why you been on mummy What else haven't you got? Peas and carrots What you want? Gravy do you want yes please er Sandra Er parsnips, Fred parsnips? Yes, I've a had two roast parsnips it a You got gravy? Mm, yes thanks I'm rather partial to parsnips I'm Brings the flavour to it Yeah Once we had , once we had big ones better They're big enough aren't they? You want Er they're amazing these seeing Oh I know I know when he was a kiddy he'd never eat them I know, have you got your parsnip? Me, I it is tasty isn't it? no, have some more right Steve call it gravy, I call it Doesn't, why? I thought it was I call circles squircles You call what? Pass the Circles squircles Squircles? Mm Oh that comes from that game you play with the cards don't it, when you call it What She doesn't call it squircles No I should think a squircle is an irregular circle is it not? No, it came about because she put down a what card and I to say squares and circles Squares and circles oh, she couldn't make up her mind and it come out squircles Innit? It's funny how names like that stick when, you know, it's the child will say something yeah and you, you pick it up It's obviously Squircle What? Can we play a game after din-dins? Lindard What's that? Oh Mum You got pepper, you want pepper? I've had some thanks er Sandra yeah Oh you've had some , where's the top to that one? I don't know mum Oh it's over here What don't you know? Daddy Are these the garden parsnips? Yeah Very nice Yeah Yeah we picked them yesterday Once you had big, big, big ones, didn't we daddy? Got early potatoes then yet? No not yet Well it's pretty quick yet Er there ain't no trays Bit late for ain't it? Mum is that one more , one, four, one, four, one? Yeah that , no I can't You'll want to wait till the end of the month before I put mine in Have I got alcohol? I've probably put them in Yeah Well that's the foremost for August Oh dear Mm well I'll have to work out how many I need, I might need some more yet More what? That broom I've got, cos I, I took the rest of them bushes out Did he? No What are you gonna put in with them? Are we gonna play a game afterwards? I spoke to If you like , what do you want to play? Erm Cluedo? Mm Cluedo? I can mix it around and carrots and the Cluedo parsnips and the fruit and veg Yeah, I don't mind will be on this side, and the or see what the others want to do beans and peas and Do you want to play a game after this? all the will be main bit Yes when we're finished. Good idea rotation plot Cluedo? We're gonna play a game of Cluedo What now? after din-dins I can't play it dinner and din-dins I can't play Cluedo after all these roast potatoes I've only ever guessed that right once, a day over at Marion's once and that'll be break Did you work it out or was it a guess? Mm? Did you work it out or was it a guess? I worked it out from what cards I'd got and what I knew somebody else hadn't got We all went round with and we're all pounding this little dad's go and he got the wrong weapon, he crossed out the wrong one on his list I went, the last time I played it, which was erm, about few weeks back, few weeks back, I had all the I had all of the cards and All at one time? all one time cards, all of them and it, there was a thing in, but, and, you took those were weapons , yeah weapons, and it was the dagger and you couldn't work it out and kept on asking I did her, I kept on asking her I've got there first Only because I got, I had to go out of it Have you done any with your lace making kit yet? Mm Not a lot You haven't, you haven't seem to have had, like, enough spare time to sit down and No you know, really study it Can I have some more gravy please mum? Not too hot is it? Where did they come from? It was when they had it at Oh at Christmas, I got him the beef Nice beef from Budgen's, when erm ah, you know at Chris , Christmas they had it down at one seventy nine a pound, didn't they? Mm And I got this big bit then, put it in the freezer Lovely I wished I'd have bought some more now Is it So do I He didn't go out That's one advantage of having a big freezer you can get things when, when there's a bargain going Mm, yeah We've got two little freezers we have Oh they've got a couple of erm these down the market don't they? Mm , I've never been there We went round it I often er Have you ever been to that Corby market? No, David has though Yeah, supposed to be good erm, one of the er chaps that come to work and he's always on Corby that's what David told us What sort of stall? Oh a stall of mixed each you know? No I think he provides game as well, like parsnip Got a bus pass token now, so you can travel round by the bus, or round the neighbourhood Yeah fares are already paid now got that Mm on the bus a bit when the weather improves I shall like to go to Harrendle But whether it was still you can get, get to Harrendle and Peterborough on the bus now Oh can you? I didn't know what all those yellows well they go in the week, you can on a Saturday You get six pound seven pound fifty, on these thirty pounds worth ain't it? Oh yes, thirty Thirty pounds with each, were fifteen pound Mm For fifteen pound? about sixty, yeah, because, say you pay out a quarter of the price from, you there What you get a book of tokens or something? No it's No they're, they're little silver thingies Take them out as you use them? Well they're useful No on that little rider that's always so far, and then we go on that at least once a week when we've been shopping Mm it's it stops outside the gate Are those the Those are they Let's have a look They're like toy money aren't they? You get , you get them in ten pound batch Yeah Aluminium How do you know? What? That it's safe Oh you can tell How? against the light The difference how, for erm as well, can't you? you can use them as you've got a list of with a list of firms you can and and you so you can take them as well, don't they? Mm, mm If you book Serve Serve, yeah Serve takes them, yeah I know You can use them on Oh can you? Ooh Well er Fred and his wife went several times on them last year Oh Is that, I thought that the card and Serve take it out for the doctors a few weeks back when he got your bronchitis and you weren't too well and erm, car picked him up and took him up there, then you get he walked back, it was a nice day Oh no he walked back You'd pay for that, ride back I wrote to Eileen I said about your dad had a hundred and four and I said er, I'd a, sent a taxi from Serve to take him up, I said then he dismissed the driver and see he walked back, and I before I left, is er, got a mental pict , when you said dismissing the driver, mental picture of the, this chap in a cock cap and that, and your dad saying alright James it's enough I'll walk back I don't know how long you'll be in there, but I'll just go off now to er, old well I said well you mean are you? No problem mate I'll walk now, are you sure he say? I said yes, I've walked it were that nice well I tale it all the veggies were your own produce? Oh not bad , no not the cauliflower Oh I bought that yesterday, over the market, this spreads hard nan cos we run out Oh, oh we've run out of 'tatoes as well we've run out of carrot and peas We're I thought we'd never end them That's right Right but we did Mum carrots are Carrots are, yeah Carrots are, yeah Oh Emily eat a bit more please We do more carrots next year Goody Got to get me parsnips out So your spuds have lasted well haven't they? Yeah, yeah Yeah, erm Perhaps I'll, I'll pop it down not at much room this year, so What put more carrots I've got twenty one pound of seed, I had Mum twenty eight pounds last year can I have a tissue please? Well I've got fourteen pounds I should have more peas and beans this year And carrots And carrots Yeah I think I'll give those er beans you grew last year will grow this year Steve Oh Yeah aren't they? well Mum Mm if I eat this, can I er, can I leave the rest? Oh Some more mum? Mm little Yes please , for nan yes please I had a glass and a half of your dad's home made wine before we came out Oh I I'll be half asleep all afternoon What is it Spanish? Don't, Debbie usually come in er, Sunday morning, but er what, they've got somewhere else to go today What's that there? so they didn't come, and I didn't go out and Gemma came up and I was sitting there talking and they had a drop, drop of wine and I had one with erm and Gemma finished her biscuits up, we've got to get some more biscuits now Gemma brings her right up to me now Oh does she? , well I didn't, I didn't do it for her I just gave her a bit of a hand and these sort of questions where they've got so many alternatives answers to fill the spaces Yeah Finished them at school You finished them at school? Yeah Are they ripe? Do you want any more mum? Yeah Mm Anything else, any more? Aagh Erm, well I couldn't really, pudding then? Oh Yeah Mm, very funny yorkshire pudding , that's one of the things I, say I shouldn't eat that is on that, those yorkshire puddings, but I'm having a holiday today Actually , actually had a fried egg for breakfast today for the first time Nan in a couple of months scrambled in the morning Nan nan Mm There's some more meat if can I have anybody want's it, I nan Yeah why, erm, at Dawn's we erm done this thing, and it was sort of, there was four sides of it and it was one, then there was two inside, well there was one at the back, erm, Henry and Mrs said when you get these back you'll see what you've got, and people, she said, people who have got over twenty of er, the better than the people who are lower and I got twenty one Oh did you? What was it then, a test? Yeah we had a French test and, erm no thirty out the lot I was very , Martin got forty three, then White got forty one, Lorraine only got forty and no one else got that many, forty one Alison is in Amsterdam Oh is she? gone with the, the, from the college there, she's been on an art course and they're going round er, art galleries and museums and places like that Oh yeah for ten days she's there Oh I'm leaving that mum Eat your veg actually married and said she wasn't looking forward to going, but I'd imagined she would enjoy it when she got there Mm She wasn't? Mm? She wasn't looking forward to go Yeah that's right How Is it compulsory, yeah? Well it was part of their course I think, I, they didn't they paid the full cost of it, they contributed a bit, but I think Colin stood That's what we're doing innit mummy? Yeah, she's going through they, is Gemma going? No Oh, she's going to, on day trips to France in July isn't she? I'm going to London Oh I'm going to London museum What they charge for that? No Mum when are we going to London museum? Thirty five I shall have ten pound deposit and I think there's twenty five pound left to pay. Oh Thirty five, but that includes the meal as well, they'd have had a meal in the restaurant there won't you? Yeah It's a long day though It is Yes I know and leave what half past? Yeah it used to be They leave at half past four in the morning and get back just after midnight Yeah Five past Yes I remember some of the others going. Sarah went when she was at school When you going next Friday? She said They usually go from I know somewhere close, Bouloigne or somewhere on the I suppose they're going to Bouloigne Yeah we're going to Bouloigne Mum I know Julia's trying to find out I needn't go to school on Thursday so I can have a lie in So why she'd like to go to France on one of those day trips to Wish we co , if we're going on Friday yeah Too much of a strain going over and back She's still at school, she's not at home You don't miss a day off school just because you're going to France for a day Yeah, but the next day we'll have to have a lie in No Only if they speak English I'm going to London Only if they speak English to speak English? What with the school? Round London, yeah British museum? The Toy Which British museum they going to? Famous one Oh no. First time I went to London, I was about as old as Emily, I went with, we went with the Brownies for the trip, we went to the zoo They have A museum of childhood Why? within childhood I think it's called Oh, what's it like, toys thing Toys yeah, yeah First time I went to the zoo I was erm I've never seen , the queen's doll's house at Windsor Castle No Bethnal Green , Museum of childhood see erm, when we went to Windsor on the boat wasn't it, when we were going up and down the Thames Thursday March Oh Yeah Thursday March, twenty fourth a week on Tuesday Tuesday March the twenty fourth Mm When's Mother's day? Very nice Two week's today should be nice twenty ninth? a full set of toys that people used to play with in the old days, and that sort of thing Jolly That's gonna be a long day because the don't get back until about six o'clock at night What time do they start? Well I presume, it doesn't say, I presume round about nine o'clock Mm Is Emily? Do they get them there or does take pack I'm going as well You're going with them? Yeah, penny and I, I'm going to help Lucy had, I've had frog's legs You have not Now then, what about Penny do you want Mum's having Penny Oh, mm How about, have you ever had frog's legs? You put some gravy on that No, but they're very nice you can take it from me Snails eat snails, escargot I'm, I had, I used to What? Don't know if I want to go to have frog's legs No you did not I did, well On one of these trips to London when I was at school, good when we went with the Brownies, I went two or three times and er, one time when I was a bit older, I mean the first time I went as I say I was only about seven, but, when I was a bit older I went again, they said if Me, oh if we'd got any young brothers or sisters if we wanted we could take them with us, fine, so I said to me brother Vic who's three years younger than me Mum I'm leaving that , I'm leaving that, I'm Mm and that I know we went to Trafalgar Square and we stopped to look at the pigeons and we'd moved on and I, I suddenly realised I hadn't got Vicky with me, so I looked all round, couldn't see him, had to go right back to Trafalgar Square and he was still looking at the pigeons Oh god Wonder if pigeons That, that, that, oh put those away we're having dinner I know come and sit at the table and wait, come on, put those away Usually have it pork and We don't have beef very often, but you get a bit small enough for just the two of you, by the time you've cooked it Yeah it's a bit sort of shrunk innit? Tends to shrink Mm how can you eat any more? That's a burnt bit Roast potatoes were very nice But I tend to eat more chicken and fish and things like that now Yeah than I do red meat, don't eat We don't eat that much red meat do we now? Supposed to be trying to watch me weight I like bacon I got down to eleven stone and then I stuck Oh yeah for three weeks now I've been stuck on eleven stone, I got, I lost nearly a stone in first five or six weeks, now I've stopped Yeah I think it's mainly because I don't really get enough exercise this time of the year I don't Ah maybe when you can get out in the summer I'm just hoping I'm losing weight as well, I was, fortnight ago Friday Oh yes, my Mm I cut out all me, in, eating in between sweets and chocolate I couldn't I think I've lost about half a stone so far Yeah Yeah you will do, it's surprising Yeah even low fat Well I, I do on me bread and what have you I've tried to cut out chocolate, but er, get a bit now and again, hard weekends Yeah, I shall, I'm gonna treat myself at the end of each month You, you dad, dad usually gets Dad some chocolate on the weekend Yeah, at the end of each month I'm gonna treat myself to some Two, two or three week's running Jenny came up on a weekend and brought us a bar of chocolate each Oh I said you're undermining my principles Well we didn't see them this week, they told us that they wouldn't be along didn't they? Oh they were How much do you weigh nanny? They told us they wouldn't come this week They said they wouldn't be up this week they've Eleven and a half stone got somewhere to go Ten and a half stone forget where it was they were going Eleven and a half They were going Dunstable Eleven? But you worried about the Oh yeah probably why they were going out well no, no not no it's, it's miserable innit really? Yeah , yes you've got a car and you can go and visit somebody and go door to door I like too bad Right but if you've got to go and get a bus and Yeah sort of spend the day out Would you like some more wine dad? in the blinking rain it's not you ought? Yeah but when the weather improves we shall, we shall go as far as Harrendle on the bus Mm I wanna go Black butchers on the square, last time we went to Harrendle Bob and Delph took us in the car Bobby and it was market day, and on the square near, where they have the market there was this er butchers, and I went in there and I got some sausages, oh, er nobody said anything about these sausages I just thought well I'd better take something back for Fred's dinner so I went in and got these sausages, well they were the nicest sausages I've ever tasted in my life Really? they were just like the old fashioned kind and er we've never been to Harrendle since and whenever I get to Harrendle I'd get some more sausages. More sausages That's if it's still there They were lovely One of these family butchers, butchers who makes his own Yeah , I from erm erm, there's a butchers at Kinbolton Mm you know the, the S bend by the school? I don't know, I don't remember Kinbolton, I've been through it I think Oh well I don't think I've ever stopped there there's one of our supervisors and because they work all over the place, you know, they, they travel around and he's Yeah he's sausage buff Yeah and he reckons they're the best sausages he ever, he's ever had, from Kinbolton I don't know the name of it, I know where it is, you know that S bend the tight S bend, Ferrari's club it's on there, it's on that side Side, left or right? On the right as you come down this way, on the left if you go out there Couldn't have been our paper this morning they've moved on to oh he's picture, one of the politicians, campaigning, said in Taunton, Devon, Please may I get down from the table? Somerset That's right Please may I get down from the table? How close is it to the It's not far and that bloke it isn't all that because er, Tavistock er No Why? Tavistock, that's it Tiverton went in the, that and that's not all that far from, from Taunton No Taunton can't be very far away Have to write to Hilda or ring her up or something, she can't write now her hands are so bad she Oh she can't write now, I haven't written to her for weeks No I said I'd ring her up on her birthday and I didn't Oh it's my brother's birthday today Yeah Who's? Graham's birthday. Oh is it? How old's Graham? How old's he? Thirty five I should think What you got there? Thirty six No thirty six even thirty six, he's about three and a half Cake, what happened to the cake? Ow That's a nice one isn't it? We had er I like the doggy Thursday afternoon me and mum looked after Daniel and Benjamin, cos erm, a relative of Sarah's died a week before and the funeral was Thursday, so, I said to mum yes I'd go up and help her You had them over here? We had them over here and when they brought, they'd come about quarter, tea time I think and they said Benjamin's tired, he'll probably go to sleep But he cried and he cried and cried and cried How old is he? He'll be one in a week I told you he was only about a year old Yeah, erm, we, we thought we'd got him calmed down at one point and he started up again and he was like that right the way up till I went to fetch Emily and that's quarter past three Porky pig,that's lovely, that is but he was, he was that tired but he wouldn't give in, he kept wanting to see what was going on Mummy but oh dear but he, mum did get him off to sleep in the end Oh that's nice isn't it? Dan , Daniel was alright, he came with me to fetch Emily from school Ah Wasn't it James who was Oh I was shattered , I was shattered by the night time I think it's his neck the dodgy one We'll just cut it is an unusual cake isn't it? We gave him a drink, we gave him some chocolate buttons, we gave me a big shoved to one side, ooh dear What about the buttons? Oh that's nice isn't it? That's the one I like, the doggy I like the dog one It difficult to make to look as realistic as that I'm Yeah and the, when that's after that the penguin Ah I wanna penguin for my birthday mummy Do you know what you're gonna get demands for some of these for birthdays I know Yeah yeah I wanna penguin I like that got a lot now Ooh, yeah I ended up using black you can't very, you can't get black very well Ice cream cones those Yeah difficult Ooh that's good the aeroplane Yes The wafer things Treasure Islands Plastic What are they Matchmakers? Oh yeah Yeah I like Matchmakers, I like there's Wicked witch Julia wicked witch of the west don't tell us Is The garden I like You used to have a story book when I was a kid, there was a witch called Jenny Green Thing I can't drink it you, I still have a drink yet Yeah it's a Yeah, that's why I can't that's why I have different That's alright cos I'm on erm low alcohol wine They're made with swiss rolls cos it's It looks very nice Ooh, ooh, ooh Ha, yeah it is a good wine Cut the swiss rolls into slices a ros, erm cos half of them don't need icing Yeah, no and the others are chocolate, and they've put them in a I hate chocolate it's low alcohol That's nice they've only got five percent not, that wouldn't be very I know you have to cut the cake up with all those little bits Ooh I could do that Ah Yuck Valentine cake Getting used to it now though, it don't bother me really I didn't do much for it anyway so Like it, mm swiss roll in there, yeah Yeah Oh keep turning Oh that's nice that, thatch cottage with the garden , I like that one A big red bus Yeah that's good innit? I like that one It is good innit? Yeah I mean No you're not look about all that meat you give her No, Penny will have it Freddy frog What? Mm, she doesn't eat a lot of meat Chuffa train Choo, Choo She never eats all her meat she eats all the potatoes Dinosaur Choo, choo, choo, choo Toadstools Goblins and the goblins I like the lamp shade Goblins in there Yes that's nice bumble bee And flowers Vegetables that's unusual, do I Fred do you want that? No your dad's birthday like that Dad you gonna open one of them for your birthday? All of these are a lot quicker than any of those dog food Dad What? You gonna make a A cake for your birthday with the guards on it Rosie rabbit Tommy turtle Tommy turtle Concorde, it's breaking Sandcastle athletic's track , they cater for all interests in here don't they, discus That's the one I like the swimming pool that's definitely the one I like Yeah steam The steam roller Yeah Noah's Ark, that's good, what do they do with the animals they can't make them out of No, those plastic mounds they must be model animals Yeah, yeah cos erm I like that Snooker table you can have that Ozzy owl that's nice We lost one you had an owl cake once did you or was it a cat? An owl one It was an owl a birthday cake like an owl I like that one snail ooh, er somebody who loves camping I want to go camping with some of my friends Paddock, that's for somebody who likes horses Gemma Yeah Gemma's potty on horses Mary, Mary quite contrary, how does your garden grow What did they all the Julia were there? Yeah Yeah What, what what? Shall we start right at the beginning? What's he like, is he alright? No, I don't like teachers I think Porky pig that was the first one I saw, that's always good That's alright, yeah very nice We saw him at Old Trafford What super match? Not the last time we went, the time we went to see United against West Ham we, we went and you know park where we normally park and went down to the United chip shop and er we got our chips and stood outside Have a chip shop? and this bloke walked passed Yellow and white No, they were brilliant Mum Manchester United chip shop yeah, and it does, I tell you, it does a concert business from about er It would do I should think about half past ten until about half past two Yeah and there was a cast of flow of people cast a queue out of the door and going in Do you like this there must a tremendous and they were nice chips as well Don't it make the sounds? I mean we stood outside and No it makes one sound Oh this duck came past and er I heard Mick Have you seen this thing you put the button at the top to make their two years headmaster and he was up there, he's got two kids, one of them's a West Ham supporter and the other is a supporter Oh dear Who were they playing? West Ham West Ham A lot of rivalry there then I suppose Did he tell you he didn't have his side of support, I told him as long as he shouts just United that's alright well there you are the boys teams, so What he do a smile that backed and it shook his little lad back Don't make the same sound every time doesn't it? West Ham supporter, the best Yeah Who won? United did Two, none No, two, one I was a bit worried yesterday it was Only if they're out in that pot in that little cupboard They, they played a lot better second half than they did first apparently I'd have banked for a draw actually Yeah What's this? I don't know, I can't drink I let her do it all It's nice out there No It used to be all green that's better I'll try and catch the goals this afternoon, cos Mum can I leave it? Not now, put it away, put it away They're bound to show all the action replays afterwards Oh no birthday You can watch the football in there why we tape Right there's erm it's a tin of fruit salad but I've put in some er kiwi and grapes so it's fresh fruit, it's in its own juice, so it's not in a heavy thick juice, there's Viennetta or you can have a bit of each Well I'll have a little bit of each then please The Viennetta isn't spoilt, squashed side I'll go out and got to do that What? Oh is there? Oh Aagh What are they? What does that mean then? Meringue Mum I The only thing that still qualified er, don't want any of that It's been beaten yet has it? Yeah Er, that's whipped cream and that's like whippy cream that hasn't been whipped but that's, that erm Unwhipped cream er the Elmlea Elmlea I'll have this Dad what do you want? Do you want the same as mum or a little bit of each or Ah yeah, I'll have the same as well similar to mum's please. Can I get mine please? Mum I I know what I want What do you want? I want, I want some of that, a big bit No I want all of it You can't eat it all I can It's different , it used to be all green ice cream, but it's now got all white layers, got a white, white Yeah I think it's lovely Erm, I prefer it like that Oh Yeah I Yeah I want in there as well Are there any strawberries? Anybody else want a meringue? Me Dad? Yes thanks Sandra Right ordinary which I believe Dad Er, ta It's like your gonna have to have the No, no I don't want it , mummy's going to have the broken one Broken one I'll have the broken one No it's mine I'll have mummy's No oh I want one Oh as well I was Got to hoping I'd have it myself today Mum what to it be in there to all fruit salad bowl You've got one as well This is nice Yeah, well I don't want Long lost Oh That's yours Where? Come on go on Ta Of all the fruit I've never bought before, a couple of weeks ago, now you know, a mango. I think I know who done it now I think I'll stay here actually six I'm staying there I accuse myself in the kitchen with the revolver or whatever it is, the revolver Who? the revolver The revolver, where is it? Emily Have you got the revolver? Miss Scarlet in the kitchen with the revolver No myself in the kitchen with the revolver Oh yourself Colonel Mustard did it no I haven't got any in there Have you got any of them I haven't got any in there the kitchen oh no, I hate the have you? Have you? Who's winning? Me I think I know who done it, but I don't know what with Oh I know who's done it , I don't know who, what with I ne Do you want a game of this? Oh, watch the match that's why we came in, put that on Oh I was gonna say we can put telly on in here if you like, if you want a game In a minute when we've finished this Weren't that There's not enough in we need three more pencils dad, if you want to play that They're going to see the football Finish that game first Emily have you got I think I know who done it but I don't kitchen no where or what where, with what I know yeah I know who's done it, I think I know what with and I'm, I think I know what, where. Emily have you got kitchen, mustard or have you? No Ya ho, I know what it, where it is I don't My turn? Yes Two, where am I, two I've got two I'm gonna go Meow, meow I with the banner in the Banner coming through Come on Julia Got that, Professor Plumb in the study with a spanner know who it is I think I know who Oh anybody shown who Well I know that Six, one, two, three, four, five, six who turn? Your turn? Who's playing then? Three Got to go back Oh I don't know what they're up to, I'll say Ah, ah, ah, ah, ah I choose myself in the kitchen with the spanner Spanner, where's the spanner? Myself in the kitchen with the er, Mustard, kitchen, spanner no I've only them Julia Have you? No, you've got to cos I've got no it's mine I took three and I don't know where, who and what, five, settle down Emily One, two, three, four, five I choose Reverend Green in the hall with the lead piping With what? Lead piping What? hall, Green, piping fine I wished somebody would show me a weapon Four Four, where are you? staying there Staying there I'll say it, in the kitchen with the revolver revolver I just have Tell you what, Mustard, kitchen and gun No I say the, Reverend Green done it No I haven't got any of them Green, kitchen, gun So , sorry, I thought you said Mustard, kitchen, gun, oh alright got any? No I still haven't got any Do you, do you, do you Elly yes or no? Oh ooh goody, I know who it is and where it is now Who's turn is it? Can I stay where I am? I know where it is and I know everything Can I stay where I am? Yeah It's the Reverend Green in the kitchen with the spanner Right I haven't got any Yes that's it Cos, cos I've got I've got , got, look, kitchen, spanner and Reverend Green I got that about two rounds ago, but I'm not sure if it was either Well I knew it was Reverend Green some time ago, but I couldn't decide which it, I just got that that, about three goes ago I did, I didn't know But I wasn't sure if it was Reverend Green, cos that what you do rub them, rub them out and then use them again yes I know that mm I know that oh, should, do you not much play when we've finished I had I think so yeah I don't know whether they all want to play or whether your dad and granddad wants to stay and watch the football Yeah I think they say they want to play Go and find out what they're doing turn the sound down a bit Julia Yes we need the we do I'm eating my penguin but, weren't that mine, that blue one? No there Yeah, here are mum, we're gonna have to share them Yeah me and dad Florrie will have that one one for her and We've only got three in there me and me mum these have got to be mixed up together is there nobody else coming in? I'll have Man City erm I think Mummy we're sharing I wonder what piece, what are, where's two centre They're little Ritz crackers help yourself. I've a erm We're spoilt for choice here especially when you're supposed to be on a diet The best of cheese No I got that down Budgens I've never had selection of Budgens Yeah, no I get me cheese from Budgens Can you get some for me? Alright, we had fan on er Wednesday night Nice is Wendy house, that we got when we were up in Yorkshire weren't it? Why Oh yes You know I only want white Rubbish here dad. How many erm, it Well I've got some more out there Taste this, anybody want Emily leave it Look, ding, dee, dee, dee granddad granddad, teddy bear Can I have some teddy bears? Say please. Please Pickled onion? Er, no thanks Teddy bears, teddy bears, ooh teddy bears da, da, la, da, da, la Salmon, ham from the bone Er, I'll have a piece of ham please Can I have some egg? Please. Please. Manners No, I like egg Do you want that little tomato? Ooh, I don't, I've got enough does anyone else, want, else want any eggs, tomato does anyone else want any more egg? Look, wait and see Well I shan't er Julia I want some more, I won't, well want some more Oh, well there's ham, there's ham oh I've got a shell, no I can't have one, cucumber Now I've had none Here it is, is Tomato anyone? Do you want a tomato? I've got one I've got Anything else? No, I've got some more out there Erm Dish of ham? Please No Julia Ah look a teddy bear without a head Oh, are they supposed to be teddy bears? Yeah, a teddy bear without a head Julia, Julia he's lost his head mum What? a teddy bear without his head Yeah he's lost his head You've beheaded him Oh poor old blighter Poor little thing Soon they'll, we'll be in half term with Julia If you go down to the woods today Do the song da, da, da Go Yes please, thank you Mum What? I don't have tea No I know you don't have tea, you'll have to go and get yourself a coffee You don't want coffee do you? Yeah Oh can I have a brown roll Steve please? Yeah That's it Oh, erm I want May to December taping Oh the Cable Simpsons What time's it on? Quarter past seven Why can't we watch it? Yeah, why can't we watch it? Cos I watch it Tuesdays when your dad's out, there's not much else on Oh Do you watch May to December? Do what? May to December Yeah, as a rule Oh good Put it on while you're here then Where? Tell I'll erm Oh yeah What time does it come on? Quarter past seven When they changed the girl in it? I didn't think I could get used to it again, but, it's surprising how well she's fitted in Mm with the role. yeah , that's right Mm It's seven now Little red head the first one and I remember her face Mm I can't put a name to it No It's seven now cos she was in a new series not long afterwards wasn't she? That's right , yeah Mum mum, it's seven I said quarter past seven Oh Got a quarter of an hour what's the old lady's name do you know? Stock, Stocker? Is it Stocker? Ah, ho Mrs Stocker I think It must be very fine She actually Mum Right Can I have the salt please? Does anybody want to see a teddy bear? Anybody want to see a teddy bear got no feet My teddy bear just disappeared It's only his feet Can I have some, erm, cucumber? Yeah it is Please use this mug? Quite hungry Mum that roll please The storm's getting a bit promising now Right About the erm, with this erm Cotswold news, I think it's about two pound seventy a pound More like no, I only have a small slice Mm every now and again Thank you dad I just treat myself Where's teddy bear? Weeee Budgens do er, erm, cheddar with onion and chives as well now, that's quite nice Huh, where's his arm gone? We had a teddy bear without a head, a teddy bear without, with only feet, and know I've got a teddy bear with an arm, without very much without an arm, see there's only one arm left and that This teddy bear's doing the can can. This teddy bear's sitting down Oh yeah I knew you saved this What they gonna do with the old post office? I think it's being used now Don't have any bum I still use, it's still used he didn't have his bum, mm as a sorting office Oh I thought Yeah after the run down Just aft , yeah This one's going for a walk I couldn't see how it was gonna work at Budgens to be quite honest, that new post office Oh I've seen it, but I haven't through, you know, been round front when we go to I passed up there and we go left Mm but here we, we never go up and go in the general by the anyway Has he watered down the stock? for me a quicker service there, than in the post office, I don't know Mm I , as I say I haven't been Couldn't get any slower No it's What? they have got some new staff, yeah But that is Budgens' staff who are being trained This one's angry Oh are they? Yeah Oh are they? This one's angry They've got a security guard in there now Who? in Budgens Who? chap walks round as a security guard now That's right, I thought there was one New, a security guard I saw it walking round Look this one's walki , no angry I don't go in Budgens all that often, that's why I don't spend more if I go in it Yeah I went in there and bought some chewing gum when I went down to see it That's what you got in there? Mm You could have got that from the little shop Our Yeah little shop you went down? Six Who was that? Me, Laura, Laura's mother, Sam, Sam Two Sams? Samantha and Samantha Don't know her last name What? Oh, Huh, why she went on Do you want coffee Emily? Have a cup of tea I don't like it Never heard of anybody who don't like tea Does she ever drink tea? No Why? Cos she won't I'll her Yours around here What is it you don't like about tea then? I'm not sure, I just don't like it You're not that keen on coffee I don't think Gemma eats as well as these two do, she's ever so finicky worse than you used to be. I'm surprised they eat sometimes Tut huh Well she's not so much now, but she Julia would eat all day if we let her I know er, who she takes after though what is I'm it you do like? coffee Yeah, what drink? Blackcurrant To eat, to eat Food Ham Ham rolls rolls them cheese teddy bears ah? I'm scoffing them I love gammon I do, gammon and pineapple, fish and chips Julia I've got a teddy bear hopping on one leg Have you? You like how I make chips? Not as much as the chip shop though They are They are aren't they Emily? What? Of course they are better than the chip, chip shop aren't they? No They, they're the best in the whole world, I've ever tasted No I prefer chip shop bought Oh I like the sausage and chips you get from I've never yet met a child who didn't like chips they used to when they were younger, neither of them Me? No you didn't use to eat chips when you were younger When you were younger you'd Don't any more Ah, I don't want any chips thank you We only have them once a week Fish fingers, yoghurts Only a oh look this is gonna do, this one's gonna do the splits Yeah We don't have chips very often, I make them now and again, I haven't bought any chip shop chips for some time,we're having some Friday, cos er Eileen rang up Derek to say they were coming and said tell mum not to get anything ready we'll bring her some fish and chips. Can they get fish and chips in Germany? Yes, there's a nice fish and chips at that van that came round in Oh yeah, on the camp Oh but erm I don't know about the shops whether they sell chips Do the towns and villages have them? What? Fish and chip shops Didn't see any We see a lot of English sheep Fast food There's some nice little, er German villages down and around the campers began the camp, there all around this er village and they took it into the er Is it a big camp then? Oh yeah, the largest camp in Europe I should imagine. Is it? There's one in America, Belgium, French, British, Does anybody want that egg? Dutch do you want that egg? Well mum, do you want that egg? Well mum, do you want that egg? Mm Do you want that egg? I don't want any more, thanks Can I have it? Yeah Have it all I'm going to I don't want it, I don't like it I know, that's why I didn't ask you It reminds me of Me? Julia Do you eat it all? Yeah thanks A whole day, a whole afternoon, a whole morning Yeah, think we will a whole, do you eat all this feed, food on this table, in the morning, afternoon and the night? She'd be, she'd be starving How long are Eileen and Tony going to be over there for then? They'll only be there for about twenty four hours, they'll go for about a week but they're spending most of it with er, Deborah down at erm, Bambury Oh I'll be over for lunch He hasn't seen a lot of Deborah and Sarah No so they're coming erm Friday just before dinner time they said between eleven and twelve and er they're leaving Saturday afternoon about three Julia do you want any of these? Oh Any more of these? But they'll Yeah just be here overnight They're bringing fish and chips, it's Tony's favourite meal Share them out and er mum I'll make erm dad do you want any? Do you want any? No Well will I please make them an apple pie Mum he likes apple pie do you want any grandma? grandma? Have we got any apples? Yeah No, well, we've got a few wine haven't you? grandma I thought you'd got some on the weekend do you want any of these? No thank you You said you was gonna Grand granddad, do you want any of these? We've probably got some Gran How many do you want? gran I've got some apples erm I stewed and stuck in the freezer, to make Oh to make apple pies, you can have some of them oh, well I erm, I did do a few but I've used most of mine up I think, I can look in the freezer to see if there's any there, but I don't think there is mum, do you want any of these? You know, I've only got that little bit on top Dad do you of the fridge, it doesn't hold much oh well it's not worth, supposed to be a freezer, it's mainly for storing frozen food, but you can freeze small amounts in it. I've got quite a lot of apple, so you can have some There's yours Julia ain't it? No I've got some bags of rhubarb as well not a whole one Oh Mm If I took that with me, they'll be alright in the fridge till Thursday would they? Yeah, yeah, cos they've been in the, yeah. They're frozen so I'll get them out So I've had three whole ones remember get them out just before you go and then you put them in your freezer when you get back. Yeah Yeah Tony's very partial to your mum's apple pie. Last time I made one he ate nearly all of it himself didn't he? Watch I'll buy for a cost of bottles of his favourite beer Grosche What? I've never had any of that Tony likes it, he said it Deb likes that too Deb always asks him to bring us a Grosche back Mm it was er, couldn't get it here then it's a nice beer but you can now Is it strong? I don't know I don't know what the strength is They've got beers from all over the world in Budgens, Mexican, goodness knows what Is there? Ah Mm, I couldn't buy it from there because it's too much expensive Er to buy are we gonna play a game? No Not at the minute, no Whoops I would buy a, er a four pack, so er Ton , Tony wanted to be Oh Oh well, I'll try them with yeah I'm gonna read this book No you're not put it down, go away that's for Benjamin's birthday, I don't want it getting dirty while were having er tea And afters OK I don't know, teapots teapot lid where got a teapot in here Let's have some more tea love I've put my tea up there Where's the teapot? This one please Oh er I'm glad there's enough room to put it all on Have you seen any magpies up top of the garden lately? No, I haven't I haven't I have Your mum says we've got some It'll be nice when these are grown up and you can sit back down and wait on you Mm Mapgies are such a it'll be nice when these are grown up and you can sit back and let them wait on you Huh, I can just see that coming off Ta Mummy and daddy can wait on us aren't you? That's miss lazy nineteen ninety two that is When I was Julia's age I used to have to take my little brother and sister with me everywhere I went I used to say to Emma, that little girl of yours she's a proper little mother, must have been er, see in the future I should think Used to have to take erm my youngest one, was it, uncle Grandma Pete, she was then granddad, granddad or was it uncle Phil, one of the two granddad she always had to take him out have you heard this before? Mm Yeah She couldn't go out and play with the other kids, she had to take him round for a walk That is the same as pardon me for being rude it was not me it was my food Yeah so it just popped up to say hello, and now it's gone back down below Say it again Pardon me for being rude it was not me it was my food, it just popped up to say hello, and now it's gone back down below it was not me it was my food, it just popped up to say hello, and now it's gone back down below but we used to take them to the pictures on Saturday afternoon my mum used to give me nine pence Oh penny to get in the pictures, and a penny Pardon me for being rude it was not me it was my food Pardon me for being rude it was not me it was my food it came back up to say, say hello and now it's gone back down below hello hello No I've never, never heard that before Pardon me for being rude, it was not me it it was my food, it just popped up to say hello, and now it's gone back down below Slowly pardon Pardon Pardon me for being Pardon me for being rude it was not me it was my food Come on Julia, I need some help Sometimes come on Julia, I need help Shouldn't help No Julia How would you What's that, how do you ask when it's your birthday? Yes, we know you know Thank you Sandra French is weird when you get to the highest don't they When you get to, to eighty it's four twenties and then it's What? What's a hundred? Cent, C E N T, cent Cent, cent de une we had to try and remember all them. God, can't remember It's Don't know Yeah What's a hundred and twen what's a hundred and ninety nine? Don't know, it's What's two hundred? I don't know yeah What a strange thing What a mouthful just saying that in ninety nine dad do you know Germany German Not much no I told myself I was gonna learn a bit of German before I went to see Eileen again German Has Eileen, has she learnt any? But er, I can count up to about seven, I can say yes and no and please and thank you and Hard work, you know, Tony knows a fair Say something good morning thank you in German please is The term please and thank you and ya is yes and nein is no Very popular in I'm going to start learning some german Yes that's right and is it? What's that for Ya Mother and father Not very It sounds awful doesn't it? Nein, for no Oh They spent time in Luxembourg, did you know? Luxembourg What was it? They had a weekend there What was it for father? Sshh hello What's wrong with that ham that's on your plate? Oh Come on, pass it over come on I want to know why daddy I'll remember that one Haven't you got Come on Julia Poor old Penny ain't gonna get much out of that I thought you wanted a Oh May to December Too late What time was that on? Now, quarter past seven, it's not worth taping the rest of it Why? Put T V on What's er, do you want, do want put it on here? Put T V on Yeah put it on in here Have you got any homework? Yeah Have yeah, what you got then? Question, only one question One question? Yep he sh , shouldn't of given it That is a lot that is isn't it? Shouldn't of given any Oh, so you've got nothing else? Mm, mm. Nothing, did you get any homework to do for tomorrow? Mm, mm. Cos that bit Come back yet, have they? No Why cos they're Yes I'm going to take another one off him I am Can't Yeah, it's Julia it's Julia , I said to Julia Yeah No, not now I have to take this I do a, well I suppose it's twenty eight days like everything else, that's what it is Mark at work he's always a Where from? Don't know where they're from What's this you're saying? Is that the one with the Bigger that that He won't set it out and call it a No Right, fine Yeah, I No, no No I thought you said They lost Oh I don't know No, I Oh don't worry I'll get it No, I'm alright Yeah I You know I ain't had a look at them yet, I shall have to have a look You don't do it Ah, but they are now, been that one we laid the Yeah I think I'll go and have a look this afternoon it's the yeah the female does as Oh you've got to cut brown colour aren't they all over? No they're a light a bit nasty as well, but they're just not big Oh I thought they were, oh No Who's is this? Paul's big erm This afternoon we'll it says in the instruction, at the end of every third tape change the batteries, so er, we'll take them two out tomorrow Yeah and chuck them away right OK That's what she said, she said you'll want a I think bloody batteries So er so er, talking for half hour Yeah and er I thought er, I've been playing about with the old ear for a song for a long time, but I ain't worked the cords out so, well between the and er, I was saying to old and we had a conversation about it Hello, yo, hi, how you doing No, don't do that Gemma that's why, that's why you're not supposed to know but, and er Dave would our conversation we had, we were talking Yeah and then in the afternoon you come up didn't you? That's right that's correct, yeah. Yeah and then er I'm told he works there up there all day and You can have it on later Oh yeah so this is the third of it, so have you got plenty of Yeah I will do Well on that one OK mate But, I mean the ten tapes and and er, she said she needn't of left them, but er only the last batch you got, only if you get twenty tapes oh, right oh then, she said it's been done all over the country Oh or whether she's covering Lancashire or No, no, I think it's innit? They've just been Yeah Yeah Direct, yeah If, should she come here at our house I mean, does she go and pick people at random? However she wondered about our pensioners Oh she just been over some house in Trafford Road and er, I think she left some, some by there by what she said or to who, who it were, but it must of been them who put them onto us, because she come in and she said er, I understand you write a lot of letters in the paper, I said well, I, It might of been a man. so she asked us if we would like to do this Oh, that's seeing as we've got a big family, I thought well Well yeah, that's right Get as many as I could possible Yeah, I'd have done. Anyway, we'll all go down in posterity I should think we will Do you want a tea ma? Three years is no time No Three years? He's had all his hair cut and he's shaved his tash off What short, short? Yeah Oh and he's shaved his tash off as well and he's always had that tash ever since I've been there, it was really funny Yeah, it's funny when someone's always had it. I remember when Sue worked behind beard and that all the time and he shaved that off, oh My boss was telling me about some old boy right he had a beard for all his life yeah? yeah a really long beard right? yeah And one day he shave it off, it took his wife three hours to notice and it took his mum all day to notice I think that's terrible and he's always had it? Yeah he's always had it, always, and they never noticed That's terrible, poor bloke oh dear mm ain't she? What? No Thought you were asleep Mum What? have you got Can you go and get her please? I'll get her Chew shut up That's enough Chewy Chewy Ah, I called you Look mum What? there it is it's just that Yeah it's but it's going white It's cert , it's going very pale yes it's certain in it bleach innit? Oh yes it's lots of Oh Yeah Ah which was probably it were not Yes I hope so, that one Did I? Yeah I didn't notice it until later on How's it spelt then? A M E M D E I Oh I thought I'd catch his more than that Yeah, he'll probably come back, probably have lots to eat, who knows, he looks friendly, I don't know, oh you know at ruggers his mum came up to me and yeah Yeah he's Is it? Yeah I still don't know a few ideas though It's prob , probably got the odd market and I thought well, I, I asked cos I was so sure that was a male It's been a male and female Just a male big I ain't been out Shall I go and have a look to see if there's any Yeah you could do I don't think or not Try now then Is that better Chewy? ouch Oh Chewy I know it sounds quieter Is there any in there? No No I don't know, mind you it's early yet really, cos they're all ain't they? Yeah, lines yeah pulled it up to the shed and I've left it there I didn't know what to do about that, I put and they I know it's not in there unless it's under the but I doubt it Maybe I doubt it anyway Perhaps it's sold yeah they do, I they all love that there Right I give you it, it's the same old Could be I mean six months been out there Long time Yeah Yeah six months, not having no right may as well alright don't want them fix my Were they Thank you very much I'm tying up shoes, OK, do you want these Chewy? Finish all the lunch off. That's nice Yeah Oh Should think dear anything Some more I'm going upstairs to listen to some music How big were they? About two, some of them were about two foot some of them were about four How much were they each? Er twenty two pounds fift , er twenty two pounds fifty So, dear ain't it? Worked out less than, I don't know and they give us all the posters and everything, so weekend I'm gonna send away for another seventy No Yes, seriously You ain't got enough room in your garden Course I am that beginning of the extent or the end of the extent of the fish pond That's trying for them, twenty two inches apart There is a saying ain't they? Yeah, if you want a hedge six, if you want a hedge six foot high, a good solid hedge six foot high, plant eighteen inches apart, so I've had, I've planted them between twenty and twenty two inches apart They take years to grow No they don't How long? Er, they reckon they grow two to three foot a year they're the fast grow ones, once they get a hold, they start growing and they shoot up each week and when they start shooting up, that's when, you've got to keep them watered, and you've got to feed them with that plant stuff do you know what I mean? Yeah Got the old watering can and then you get down on this plant, and then when they get a gist of that first time that they go whooo, you wake up in the morning, you've got co , conifers like Jack and The Beanstalk coming I was gonna come over and see you about, about Mm, mm. I could find out where you did your, that, that hall, I know people in know where it is in it? Yeah, but that, I don't know whether it's knew anything See I told you they would No I don't think so, nobody does What, what did they say about your tash? Do you know, I went in there right and the majority of people never took no blind bit of notice then suddenly one person walked through the door, you know, he's always playing next to me and he sits down, puts his trumpet there, gets his trumpet on ya, sits there, turns round and the next thing he were laying on the floor going and that was it, everybody else turn round and oh, blah, blah, blah, blah and that's how it goes and that that actor oh blimey he's we say no, what does he remind me of? And going oh he looks like a bloody poofter know ooh, ooh and then that was it and then a bit later on, that was all they said about me haircut and then during the break somebody else said, there's something else gone as well and they couldn't make out what it what done mine in, my musical director he come, he says you know what will look nice now with that haircut don't you? I said what? He said a patch, I went I said little one, he said no I've never noticed never noticed you had it? no I can't believe it's Thursday So you've got plenty of food on you? Yeah, I see, you could possibly for a fiver I think Ah? I think er, that Same with my missus, don't get suspicious I know she thinks I'm picking you up, but,I and Mark are gonna give you some money for I said yeah, he is, I said he could do where do you think you're going, I said London You always tell her we're going to London don't you? I think one night, right, I'm gonna say Carol were gonna be out late, right, I'll tell her we've got two down, down buyers and sneak out Sneak out down He, he wouldn't serve me though in the pub, cos he knows how old I am No, you'll be on it easy won't you? Yeah Yeah, I'll on his won't it? Yeah it would as well, he'll probably bar me as soon as we walked in, he don't like me, does he? You won't be able to drink now you're driving So and over, my and the car registration number is oh, oh, blah, blah, blah You always say You ain't got your Garrot Turbo sticker on your car. I know. I thought you said you had yesterday. No. You said, you were going on about, something about, when they sing oh Garrot Turbo sticker Yeah, but I haven't stuck it on yet. Where you gonna put it? I don't know yet. There ain't room is there? No. Anyway Oh, want to stick it on top of that dome like cowboys do , I want, I want, I'm gonna laugh, yesterday and there's all these Yeah Yeah slapped all over his car There might be a load slapped on your car. Oh, it's walks down about eight o'clock, talk about long legs, she's got really long legs right, this one. Get all the components done and that just leaves me to do the joints. What you gonna do them on your own? Oh I see, I mean, if we're still doing components tomorrow I will be won't I? Monday Well even if they They just want to check over Yeah Yeah Yeah Great I know the er, Dave has said about the er Yeah they get them out because I mean they really are gonna be, you know, in a hurry to get stuff out the door Is that it, is that all of them? No, there's some here if you want Oh are they the last ones? Over there What? Where? The Erm, can you get Jeff to do the first soldering for you? can you, you get them close, just say twenty clean and then start to finish them Yeah alright? And then Jeff just carries on finishing yeah, yeah But just, as soon as, er, er, when soldering, I take it you haven't just checked any over yet No before they go down? got these about four, four to put in, then we'll start checking them over Right and then get them down there, the machine won't be ready until about half past nine. Yeah If Jeff doesn't get those soldered allows you to get You'd better come in Monday morning, you won't through that will you? Yeah I don't really I think people who drink from the bottle want their bollocks chopped off. Yeah You got any more of that? Yes please Pass, pass me a couple, one, or something I'd like to say hello to Ben, hello to all Ben's friends Bend friend Ben's car's going off the road in two weeks I'd like to say hello to Mr Major, hello then Mr Major I think your It's election soon Yeah it's the election soon yeah I don't think Major Morgan's gonna, gonna win, I think he's gonna be out, out, out yeah out the door out the door, throw him out, get rid of him, up the vote Labour, Neil Kinnock, leader of the Labour On this I can't pay No you don't wanna I wonder who took that poster what that they had? Somebody good, vote, vote what, right to the white, out the nig nogs You got one of these? Why won't it come out? Yeah Yeah that's good cos I want it I think there's just enough for those got some stairs anyway What we doing checking them over aren't we? Yeah just er, you know what's supposed to be missing don't you? Yeah that's right Yes, resistors and things like that, you see well that one's going in the just make sure the, R C's are round the right way Yeah, that's what I do again, this time check the R C's innit? Yeah cos I've still got that card Of the red caps it should be twelve, thirteen, seventeen, twenty, twenty two, twenty three and twenty fours, no I'm thinking of I was gonna say you're reading and I'm thinking I ain't got them ones .. e. And another thing to do is just make sure these caps are still straight, there's some on the left get pulled out when we on the blue ones? And on the yellow ones This is an excellent song this is Mm Chariot's of Fire ain't it? Mm Excellent brilliant Yeah brilliant like Queen they're brilliant Wembley Yeah. I hope the I R A don't plant no bombs in Wembley Stadium, time they all get together, Mm the Government ought to get at Wembley Stadium, cos I don't want, I don't want to get blown up I hope you're listening Mr Government was quite big we went to see last night, there was quite a few people around Well Jeffery How Which way does that green cap go in? Erm My mitt's just about come back to reality, last night when I was playing my trumpet right, it was numb, my fingers, I'd got no feeling in it, it was as though it was dead. It's horrible when you get that innit? Mm It lasts ages and ages no matter what you're doing it come back Me and my missus are actually going out with me in the next couple of weeks, That's our future For your band? Mm he was on about it last night, he says well I think all we really need is to look at is two hundred pound up front, buy the equipment, couple of decent speakers, a graphic equalizer and the twin deck tapers Mm and a foot switch press it and it starts the tape, it stops the tape Yeah, that's all we want. Marcus has got loads of ideas going through his head No, these are though, want them? Er, yeah alright yeah so I mean he said we're gonna have to go out for a drink and sit down and discuss it, you know Cos if you really want booking on his own at the moment, three hundred pounds on bookings he's got, coming up in the next three weeks What just, what for him and you? No, just him Just him, mm, what's he play? The trumpet. You know I told him the other week Yeah I told him there was some , I said somebody was interested in, well he's got back in touch and he said can you come and do a twenty minute spot at this hotel in Bedford and he said really, I mean he's doing it That is easy money, twenty minutes I ask him if come in Monday and he could say Don't know so I'm getting really excited about, really serious you know there's some times when you can get two cabaret spots in the night, you do one, one somewhere and then Yeah and the best thing is that nobody's doing it, everybody's doing cabaret spots along the line jokes and stuff like that, but nobody's not doing cabaret spots with trumpets You're gonna see Andrea tonight ain't you? Remember to say hello There's a resistor there that was in that tray I don't know whether it's fell out the board or Oh yes, Ah surely we ain't got to But don't you get anything for your wife for your anniversary? No. Not at all? No. What, not even a card? Oh I got her a card, yeah. You're meant to buy present though? No. Yeah, you're meant to I ain't got no money have I? What if you, if you lent us some dosh I suppose I could be with Louise tonight, right, I could go home with a big bunch of flowers cos I'll have a guilty expression on my face. I could do Mm, well it's what you thought Are you sure you two are playing at No not there out via satellite Right, then you look video tape they're gonna slap in the machine the seen when the machine is They could just say no Why do birds fall in love, why do birds sing so gay, why do they sing that song, why do they Ah Phew what's that smell? You want me to, what, what have I got to put down on these then, they all be I shouldn't need to push anything down Well yeah they should be, should be packed, tack down in fact should be So I should without having to worry about pushing any down Yeah, right-oh Yeah, but you know just when you have fingers over the R C, just to make sure well they're just, you know, don't push them hard though Jeff you'll bend the legs and snap the board About time you got on the I think He's going to go loopy, he's gonna go are you accusing me of drinking and driving? Just don't, but if they say oh yeah, you're gonna say he's gonna say, and then when they breathalyse me, he's never, he never drinks anyway, he'll be negative, he'll say right see you that'll be too much, he says take you to court, try to harass me Yeah that's a nice word harass me Mm same tone yeah, oh yeah, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah that's a good word, that'll be the thing oh yeah, yeah, yeah, oh yeah, mm, yeah, you'll see, mm, wicked, wicked, mm Erm, I'm just sitting in the front of the car last night and erm Have you got my yeah do you know what time the four of them working Was it the car wouldn't I was sitting in front of the car and erm everybody, everybody started beaten her up like Beating you up? Yeah, Georgina goes to me aren't you gonna stick up for her, stick up for her, so I did You did, stuck it up for her? Yeah, they got aerated started Aerated beating me up No, our I don't want to see them tonight Who's them? dude, cos I'm only going to get the piss taken out of my hair aren't I? Yeah He told them? Yeah No Yeah What did you say? I just told them you'd had your hair cut really short What's he say? Does look funny and I said yeah If I get the piss taken out of me tonight and I look more hard especially if you're I'm really I'll send you round her house, I know where she lives knock on the door I ain't going round You are, still a monkey wrestler Oh yeah, I remember you saying ah well Ah, got that record again Freddy , that's not good enough, mm could warn him Marcus would, wouldn't like, one, one would quite fond of you prince charming Yeah, yeah leader of the Labour party Neil Kinnock Wentworth Dock It would, must be and then up early Have you got both keys missing? Mm, I ain't had one board yet with anything missing, I must have your boards I found that board with half oh yeah I bet it's not, it's neither these, neither of them Mm, that is Mm that's in ten there I've got a power supply at home I want to bring in and have it checked out. Have it checked out, you want me to check it out? See if it works. Mm Ever since I check that what's your board no I mean look that See look all that down there, you've blown it all up, and you're supposed to be clever Clever, I am clever I'm the cleverest one here Oh is checked at the innit? Mm It's only like a C B power supply Ah missing as well it's not me, it must be your boards What's the weather like today? It's sunny today. Well what's it meant to be like? It's supposed to be dry, warm and sunny, hello, hell what the time is erm, Marcus What? Mm it's quarter to ten already Well Well I love summer, summer time you know it's special about summer time I like it when it gets dar , dark Ah? I mean I like it when it's still light at night light at night, yeah so do I, mm well, oh I'm glad he moved away, I ain't telling oh dear So what we doing tonight then? What we doing tonight then? Well what, what do you want to do tonight Marcus? I mean if you like, I mean, I'll pick you up at normal time, then we'll just I don't What? You see, I'm, I'm not sure where I'm gonna be Oh I see Glen's picking me up at half six, yeah Mm I don't know if we're going to alright then, you know, get, I ain't bothered I mean I'm fine if you wanna, I'll kill a butcher somewhere I'll ob obviously be over in Attenburg or in Rushton Well I can't go down the square that'll be too much, but I mean oh yeah I've been going bowling I can't believe got up this morning, but I, Maria must of told you that No she didn't I I'm going, I'm going get a P A for my car and gonna drive past the square and And baa, baa baa, rah baa, baa, baa, baa is she really busy? Yeah Don't she know nothing? She's like, accident prone No Yeah, she's, for the last three nights running, right, every night she's tried to get out of Ben's car when we drop her off home Yeah she's smacked her head on top it's so funny, silly bitch Oh, she's scatty ain't she? Oh you know I tried to find out her phone yesterday Mm She ain't on the phone Oh Marcus she used to be, but she got a bill for erm five hundred pounds, so they had to have it cut off Little girl Mm yes we're at Wembley, Wembley, Wembley, we're going to see Freddy Mercury and we're off to Wembley I don't think I'd go and see Freddy Mercury Oh, I do, he'll be there, you'll be safe, he's only, he's not really gay, I think do you really think Is that all that's left just them twenty five? Mm, what's Jeff on about when we'll keep up with him? He didn't say that did he? Yeah I bet he does as well shall we send a blank board up there, get that spare out, do put it in the tray and see what he says? No, he might be able to solder it, if we do course he wouldn't, just, put the blank board in. No, it takes ages down there big straight Dave, that's their manager, Dave the manager he's the one with the dodgy voice dodgy voice, he, he, that voice, Birmingham accent, oh David oh David Ah? Don't you dare tell my Prince Charles impression, don't you dare say anything to Ben about it No I nearly said it too loud then when does one, one could have one, one,Diana I reckon you should let me have one of your cappuccinos Oh yeah Oh no Oh yeah Oh no I'll buy if off you. You can't can you because there's only two there So? and I want one at dinner time and one this afternoon. No you don't, you only want one at dinner time and that's it. No I don't. normal cup of coffee this afternoon No I couldn't do it, you wouldn't like it Yeah No Yeah No They look nice Mm they are nice, they're dear though. How much are they? Ah? How much are they? Two twenty five for ten. How much? Mm So how much does that work out each? Two twenty five for ten, twenty five P each innit? Oh, let me buy one off you. Oh no I'll give you thirty P, five P interest, five P interest Oh go on then thirty P Bloody hell Bloody limited this month right I ain't got thirty P in change I'll give it you in a minute Mm I've only got pound coins That's all right Do you you just add water, you don't need sugar in that, that's got sugar in there Why is it sweet or not? No, not really sweet, no, you don't put extra sugar in if you want, but I you don't fill your cup right up with it because it'll make it too watery in your cup, cos them cappuccinos come very little Yeah they are aren't they? You only wanna fill half your cup up with water, otherwise it'll just come out like running hot water? Running hot water Cos those little, cos they're only little cups about that big, the proper cappuccino really, it's watery enough in my cup, it's bearable. Mm, they're nice. Yeah, I wouldn't fill that up right at the top Mm I reckon they should do tea here, I'm getting really bored of coffee I tell you I heard Georgina scratched Ben across the arm Right that's yeah, wouldn't need it, finished These are done over here are they? Mm, mm, is for us yet? No, you'll have to clean it, I've started taking the stuff off Cleaner on? Yeah, cleaner's on, yeah, by the time you've finished there, there'll be some, some, some, some right I thought Dave said Jeff would clean them? So did I, but he obviously hasn't What time did your come then last night? They didn't come last night. What did they come in the day? They were already out when we got home What just left on the drive? Mm In a big bag? Ten in a bag? Oh my god I'm surprised they just left them there They were on the front doorstep, or round the front doorstep, probably say on the front doorstep, trouble is they found the front doorstep on the side plastic bags being warned about perishable if delayed Perishable? Mm I mean they are perishable if delayed aren't they? I mean perishable means, they'll perish, they'll perish die well wouldn't they if they were delayed Why you whacked them in the garden already? I only bought ten in last night, I've got some more to put in tonight, it got too dark It didn't get dark till about just gone seven Yeah I know, but, well I got home, I didn't get back till five cos we went round me mum's we got back at five and oh dear me, there they were. I was putting them round the back and sat thinking about it and I said well we ain't got no peat, so we had to rush over to Hetford and bought some very good peat, and erm, by the time I got back and started digging hole for them to go in Mm quite at first of them, on a small one Do they look nice? Mm, they're alright, they will do when they're, when they grow big I think they're excellent actually Well they're cheap and once they start growing Yeah you know, will, make will real good screen Yeah better than a bloody fence Look better don't they? They do, and they give off a nice piny smell as well Mm, mm Big style give me some boards to look at Er, what about them twenty there? I've done them Ah?with you , is this U 2? No I don't know who this is Jeffery and the five always take the weather with you, everywhere you go with you, everywhere you go always take the weather, everywhere you go always take the weather with you, everywhere you go always take the weather Next week's gonna be really Oh ten to eight No Yeah Why? Dunno, had to me Theresa weren't ready, didn't expect until eight o'clock, I thought yeah I've got ten minutes, sitting in my bedroom drinking a cup of tea and I heard this bing Why's he do that then? Oh I know why, I bet he thought if he's right that I'd be going over to and he'll be sitting up here, but he never got or anything Quarter past right and Mm gosh, couldn't you see this coming? No, the next bit I looked over me bit and you were parked up alongside me, why? OK I haven't done that Yeah, sorted all the didn't you? It's gonna take fourteen days to build this, this stage at Wembley Really? Yeah, there's got in, it was in the paper the other night the team of a hundred people gonna take fourteen days to erect this mega stage for Queen that's gonna build at Wembley Build the stage must be a good one Mm no mate, not Mm Comic Relief soon ain't it? Mm You've got any more, boards to inspect? No No, right Robert Plant Mm, can't remember what band he is out of, he's out of a big band That's what I he said he didn't know whether it was Pink Floyd It's not Pink Floyd. I know what it is. What? Led Zeppelin. Is it? Mm yeah I think he's the lead singer out of Led Zeppelin Mm Is Joey singing Queen? Yeah, er no, they're all gonna sing with Queen I think, they're all gonna do ten to fifteen minutes each Yeah then they, it'll be a mega band for singing for an hour, hour and a half, but what they've speculated is that, Queen's gonna be on there for an hour, hour and a half and then the like David Bowie will sing with them and everybody will take a turn singing with them, like that, that woman that sing that Barcelona you know, er whatever her name is I suppose she'll, she'll sing at erm, er and somebody else might sing that Barcelona you know that one Yeah there's one, that Italian singer as well. I ain't heard about whatever his name is, he's that big fat opera singer. Oh, la, la somebody called Brian Murray you know I've heard them before, I don't, you know, and, Roger Taylor and you, John Dean They're gonna be there, they are, and if, if, if I wonder if Roger Taylor's getting married? Of course he's getting married. He's out of Pink Floyd. No he's out of Queen, Roger Taylor. Is he? Mm he's the drummer, it depends on Roger Taylor I mean, there's one in Duran Duran as well What's wrong with this board? I bet there's loads of them like it in there, these should be tapped in by both leads Mm, have to remember that in future Do you mean she's got over her illness then? I don't know, I suppose so, she hasn't said anything to me I haven't got patience for people who are ill Most of my babies are my fish mm cos one of my fish swim really near the bottom, on the gravel Yeah, that'll be alright I wouldn't know whether that is pregnant or not, it's taking deep breaths Mm she's laying on the bottom going , but I didn't move her cos it she's been like that for two days now Yeah Do you know anybody wanting baby rabbits? No, why you've got some? Well one of our bab , er one of our rabbits thinks it's pregnant, whether it is or not Better not if it is, you're gonna have to get rid of them pretty sharpish, as soon as they're old enough mate, you've got to anyway Still ain't got rid of that cockerel don't know where to, to get rid of it to. The bird's gonna have to be ended up on a Sunday dinner somewhere innit? No, that's why, that's why we don't want to get rid of it to anyone, just in case they chop it up Have it for dinner Couldn't do it could you? Mm Neat Yes yeah, you gonna have to speak at No Take that cowboy one off Can't do that Why? More than my life's worth What, cor girl walked all the way from America Is that You've got to cut dead square across the back ain't you? Mm , I'll shave him for you Mark No way well, well it's a bit long you see, but it's just Well you should of had it shaved. Er, no I don't want it shaved, no Not a lot, just, you know, take a little bit off There's a funny programme in a couple of week's time Is there? She only did it as a temporary measures just to Get it out sort it out, just to sort it out, it's like, it's like cutting a lawn innit? You never cut it straight down low to start with No You've gotta, you gotta chop big bits off and then, sort it out later So you shouldn't wait two weeks now Mm, or whenever How is it going Jeffery? Dunno Wiggler I'm not a wiggler wiggler, wiggler he let them have that, yeah, as soon as he starts crying . I'm gonna bring in a hair tong today A what? A hair tong Grecian Two Thousand What's This , this don't taste like coffee What's it taste like? Mm, hot water You've put too much in it. No I didn't do it, I only filled it up Of course it taste like coffee It ain't, it ain't, it ain't got a real coffee taste Mm You've still got your other tomato seeds tomorrow ain't you? Yeah You're useless, what about that? Too hot to handle Yeah, it has to be on a day when I'm ready for it Ready for it cos I'm ready it might take me by surprise It won't obstruct no light though because I told you the sun is more er, without the back it joins down the car you don't get no light between the two houses anyway, we always have to have Does she get on alright do you know? Yeah. Well they ain't going to anyway does a two or three years, they're old age pensioners, the house is too big for them cos they're waiting for a place to move, that's why I want to get it, get this hedge grow before the next one comes in What size, what size is, is oh the old boy next door he's alright, and the woman next door she's alright you'd never think much of them Why? Well you wanna go on holiday Yeah, well he's already turned round and told my mother he's not knocking mm they said for a near six foot high plant eighteen inches apart, for a near ten foot high plant twenty four inches apart, anything over that plant Yeah but you yeah So I've, I've got the actual main table for the pond and all that, went along that edge that should be in the ground actually, but, I just all the way along yeah, a big size electric Yeah, but can you imagine it Yeah That's mine this, this, they only start from sort of like, there's the house, and it goes half way up the garden, so I want fifty up at one side, and put fifty to go up other side, I want fifty to go across the garden, and they're gonna go across the garden and cut the garden in half no they haven't, they're gonna go all the way round the top section as well, but I just wanted to get the bottom section built first, get some of that plant food in when the old boy comes round and see what you've done with the old horse manure, spread some of that around and that'll make them grow as well this one completely but they do last for years and years don't they? Oh yes Are you gonna come home and help me dig this pond out then Mark? Yeah Yeah Was that plastic any good? Well no not really, but Not good No I'll get some, you know, what I'll do I Use they've got holes in it Dave Have they, oh I dunno, I dunno I just grabbed it from underneath the garage Yeah there's no, I, I use that of the actual You'll find two without, caps missing Mm Well can't we go down and packaging Buy yourself, buy yourself a plant because when it, when you open this all out it's a huge great er Yeah squares yeah, well, you know, these even if you put two or three layers Mm to stop, so if one goes at least you've got another one to save underneath you know? See I want to get the same sort of material though as what the other liners, I want to stick the two liners together to make all one great big pond you see right the way across the garden but the other pond might be about two foot deep, this one's gonna go down down to about five, five foot deep I think, four or five foot deep Right, so well what do you want a pond four or five foot deep? So you can see the fish in it, me cousin's is five foot deep, maybe six, I think it is six Do you get it in the garden? No ain't gonna no it's gonna be none of that were never know got a, a That's why you needed it that deep Yeah for the carp that's right, and then I You know what you're gonna keep all carp and that Yeah all carp in it , I've got all carp in me little one Have you? Yeah I thought you only had just normal goldfish in there No , I've got, there is goldfish in there, but they've got Koi, I've got three Koi in now I think I need that you do definitely It's nearly, it's nearly as deep as me Oh, oh, I'll probably be down about four, four, cos I'm five seven, as Mark? We'll see, we'll see how deep you can get. You can start digging about six foot though, start, start digging a long time is your missus now helping you? Sorry, yeah I said Mark's gonna come over and help me dig it. What's she say? Oh really are you getting cloud, smoke wafting up over there Ah? What's been over there? Getting teas in and stuff Getting the teas in Oh yeah tea's in Yeah I'll definitely come over if Andrea's there it'll be at the weekend won't it? Mm What this one? Yeah it's nearly empty Jeff really bad for my stomach, ah, it's staying all hot When you burp in a minute, you'll get all the acid Ah, that's horrible that is just stay in your throat Mm for about two hours Ah, my stomach's getting so hot I'm only gonna get it four foot deep with it anyway it wouldn't be four foot deep all over, it'll start off at two foot and then slightly slope down to the deep part Yeah I might go I might just plant some, we'll, we'll see, we'll see, we'll, we'll design a piece of I'll design a piece of oh yeah, that'll do keep the old garden You'll have to come over and pick me up though Mm, I can do it, on a couple of days when Tel's at work, you sit in a box, on a chair What No, no I was gonna say decide when you're gonna do it and have the days off work, but they won't, they won't let us both have days No, no, no , oh no I ain't having days off work cos he's altering bloody garden Why? Why ain't I off I can Yeah, you definitely want a slope one better Cos if you have it deep, that deep all over the fish will just swim at the bottom you'll never see them No, these carps at, my, my cousin, they're really weird, you go to feed them, they come to the top, oh the water stays crystal clear Does it? Mm the water in my other pond is crystal clear, see straight down to the bottom, and another thing I want this hedge quite high cos keep the sun off my pond, if you let the sun on the pond it'll just go green Yeah, if you shade it like my cousin's it's well shaded, he started mind you he's got a good filter system, he's got a U V light in it, see when the water comes back out the filter it goes through this pipe right, a big unit type of thing Yeah the water flows by, it's got an ultra violet light in it and the ultra violet light rays kill off the er can have enough of these you know. Enough of what? These insulator bits Ah? I dunno, there's about thirty boards left I've got ten here there might be enough don't worry what, what time are you coming out tonight? Probably be at Ruth's by about eight I suppose If Brenda wanna go over here, or what, I'll go over anyway I can never Wrong L E D No, that, that L E D has been all the way round Well change it then, ain't you change that yet, you found that this morning early all you have to do is pull it off, they do come off you know? Yeah but I can't be doing with it I'm only going by what this They ain't very far apart they do grow big you know Yeah I know There's this old girl at er the top of the road you know, got them, she planted them half way down her garden, right, when they'd grown to about six foot high she said we could have the rest of their garden, so we did, that's how come our garden's so big cos people give our, give us the garden Mm Council come round our house they'll say yeah your garden looks big If you can't plant them closer together, instead of their roots going outwards they'll probably go downwards Oh er Yeah, might do, there must be a reason why they say plant nineteen inches apart Of all the hedges I've seen they've been about eighteen two foot, about that far apart I'll have a look see how far ours are apart in the garden yes and they've put in there and they're about two foot apart Could be ages to grow like that, now it's grown a real good hedge, in fact no it ain't a good real hedge it's got massive great gaping holes in it Who's that old man? Mm round their summer house at least they've got a summer house Who's got a summer house? We were gonna have a summer house built in our garden Are you? Yeah, that's, once the conifers are all growing up, we're going to have a garden shed a greenhouse and I'm gonna build a summer house up the garden, that's by, by round where the pond is What a proper greenhouse? Yeah, but we want a proper greenhouse don't have one in the stock room do you? No One of those aluminium greenhouses they cost a lot of money they do Mm, I know, that's why I was cos it's made out of aluminium and you've got to put the glass in, it's really expensive I tell you Mm No, sheds are pretty expensive as well they're a couple of hundred quid aren't they? My mate used to fix sheds, the garden sheds, had this little card with Chad on it said what no shed I remember that record this morning, let's think Yeah, fine I'll bring it tomorrow I even got it out No I want the green, I want the garden chair, I was thinking of getting a big garden chair and stick it in one of those lean-to and lean it up against the garden shed, you know what I mean? Yeah If a, bloody greenhouse on it's own, when they seriously When we had the gales a couple of years ago, I was in the kitchen making a cup of tea and I could hear all this glass smashing, and I went ooh what's going on, and the wind whistled across the field, it's all open field Yeah Yeah it flies down their garden and in between the two houses it acts like a wind and you get gale force winds blowing down there and of course I opened the back door and there were panes of glass flying past No Yeah, swinging around us, literally big panes of glass and they were flying down and as soon as they got away from the houses, it opened up again, they were crashing down all over my drive and all over the road out there What were they from? From the greenhouse Oh Something fell in greenhouse and broke the pane to allow the wind to get into the greenhouse, which is oh dear me, as soon as the wind got into the greenhouse as I say blowing the other panes out Yeah and as soon as the panes been blown out, it was such a force, it was blowing them between two houses, smashing on the road, and in the end, once a few more panes had gone that was it the whole greenhouse, I sat there watching this greenhouse, it just suddenly launched itself off the bit on it, over our fence, it went, there was glass everywhere for weeks afterwards, when I was cutting the lawn, oh dear the glass shattered I'm not surprised, glass is really expensive now Dave Lee Travis Having their secret talks in there ain't they? Mm there not very secret with this mike Is that recording? Yeah Oh you didn't lend him another one, easier than that I suppose Carol rented that place with you mm, so do I, I would of said oh by the way, Dave wants to borrow that Keith come back here and say have you bought out a video and I'll say oh no I couldn't, Carol wouldn't let me bring it, they oh no hen pecked, ooh, ooh I'm not hen pecked And does erm I'm not under the thumb no way am I under the thumb Right, who's finished on them boards? No one round here like ah? There's no one round here big and strong only me and I'm busy Sure mm alright What's happening? What's happening? Might as well get the boards couldn't they? Well that didn't last long did it ah? How long were they made for? About five minutes what? I never want nothing on the side Dave You could if you have half the chance No I wouldn't Yeah No, oh, er, you'll be seeing Jeff when you're married Ah? I ain't coming, I ain't doing after no I am actually I'm going over Ruth's to pick Marcus up, I'm taking Marcus to see somebody oh, oh, oh, what does he think I am? Ah? I don't know Andrea I seemed to have a thing about people with the name's A yeah, beginning with A Mm Andrea, Ann Annette Annette who? Oh yeah I told er this old girl yeah, who told I told her that I had you at work then yesterday, right, she says oh no another one, right, and ended up I'm going no I already know that, you must of got that, where did you hear that from? Oh that's olden Yeah You know Lydia? Lydia at reception? Quite funny really Yeah I know Where are all those boxes gone? Don't know I bet Mm How do you know? Cos I heard him say yes Do what? all those record sleeves I used to have loads of records, they're all gone now, scrap Are they? Mm I would of had them that's why the UB40 record's down there Mm, I know I could of done with them, I like UB40 No Yeah I've got a rat in me kitchen what am I gonna do, I've got a rat in me kitchen what am I gonna do, I'm gonna get that rat that's what I'm gonna do That's done me in lifting those boxes likes UB40 Yeah I know yeah, I know she likes UB40 How do you know? Cos when I come over here, that was when Andrew was there you know, and she was going through all those records Mm she got a UB40 record out and I said there'll she said then Elvis Presley record Elvis Presley? Yeah Mm, Oh well soon be Easter April the twentieth You got them? Oh er, it works Seriously Well mm, this weekend I think Easter were last year How things can move back? It's a late Easter this year, they never have Easter Sunday Don't they? I never knew that, well, learn something every day innit? I don't know why they never have Easter You know I said we were gonna run out of these Mm I'm right You're right Mm where do you think any will be? No idea spots What rivets no plastic How many are you short? I dunno, I'll tell you in a minute, we'll have a count nearly dinner time It can't be, twenty minutes yet So that's nearer than, what it were half hour ago Have you got salad again? Yeah Oh, how long you gonna keep this salad lark up for? Mm, you'll see, when I'm as skinny as you Oh are Yeah you'll never make it course I will, you'll just see Oh, well, you're gonna have to keep it up for about a month before you notice any difference Mm, I'm already noticing the difference Ooh you might not be but I am Instant loss of weight I'm feeling healthier nice to feel healthy packed up smoking, that makes you feel healthier, you'll feel healthier if you packed up smoking, mm everybody ought to pack up smoking, I think smoking ought to be banned, ban smoking ban smoking if you've given in you're wishing Oh er, anybody can stand for an M P You can When I Mr mayor mayor? Mayor, is he? When I become the mayor of I'm gonna ban cigarettes and I'm gonna ban ban all single men will have to be shot over the age of forty That's Jeff gone what you doing Jeff? I ain't going over Everybody's going no I You'll do Louise , she comes out at eight o'clock, by nine o'clock I wanna go anyway Yeah yeah and do I? Oh, you, er No honestly I try not to it's only the last week before I went back to I was out Oh yeah Yeah she did, cos you went out with Gavin Yeah, but that's all she thought, she, she still didn't realise that after Gavin had gone that I got in me car, come home and seen you, didn't she know? No good innit? None the wiser Very good, the only way she, say, stop me going out tonight Can have no room for conversation Where do I put these Marcus? Anywhere you like Well I don't know where you want them so they wanna go over here then don't they? Yeah A nice day out Yeah Cold though No, cold It is Do you like it here? What? Seen, have you any in this box? There might be there might be a there's three packets short Ah? there's four packets short No, look, there's loads here Where? There's some anyway Why how many's in a pack? Ten ain't there? I don't know don't say I'll put them ten it looks like more than ten there though Why don't you take this down er How much is it? How much are they expensive? We went past a garage yesterday they wanted fifty two P a litre that was erm, where were we? Motorway? No, it was on the way to erm on the way to Earthenburg that the garage just before Earthenburg, last one on the yeah, I think, yeah I think it was cos it's a small garage innit? yeah er, no they can fill it up for you There are villages, there are villages sometime in what those yeah up, up the Northampton road Not the Northampton road Yes we have no it's Northampton road Oh, on the way to you turn left there, the other side of the green, where that cartoon character is Yeah yeah Just up there on your left it used to be when I was a young lad, with their little forecourt with a little office in the middle two petrol pumps, I always remember that They've built houses on top of it now though They must of transferred it though Mm built, built the houses on top of them What did they do built it out of concrete or sand? I don't know There a bit, years, twenty odd years ago since the garage was ever used so yeah supermarket You got your paving stones Mark? No way, bloody hell, they cost about four hundred quid the paving stones Seriously, more than four hundred quid cos they're two pound something each Each slab? Mm No Yeah, six hundred by seven hundred that's two pounds thirty nine for and I want two hundred Is it worth it? Yeah I thought, I thought that they used to be cheap, there was a lot of one pound seventy, they're only a little slab, drive me boring doing the little ones, so you might as well get two of the big ones once you've done no they will still go won't they? I say I would have found you the cheapest ones, and they were good quality ones as well, you know you go to some of these garden centres and well half of them price of them, you know you go into er cos they've got the big thick ones there That's what I want six of them by six hundred What's that thirty two? yeah they are but that they're not Why is he always going and telling Mm why does he always tells Still gonna be short of these, there was more than ten in that pack How many were there? I dunno, I ain't used them all yet still reckon we're gonna be short though oh yeah, ow,na, na, na, na , we're still out of grey ones, couldn't use them though can we? What? Those grey ones No cos there not for this board are they? That's for that other dodgy board did they ring up about just gonna leave it? no, I didn't know him, well, no we were some short on boards, Dave picket, and when they go out we all come back, reject work, such and such a component were missing, they sent us different components through What did you say? Said bloody do them he said dodgy board though, he looks shifty don't he? Mm Above the eyes yeah, we're still quite a few of these short aren't we? I know they want these in the bin Snapper, well and but I can put it in can't I? I'll put it in, cos I sent some boards up last time Yeah I know, didn't count hardly any of them did we? Only the R C's, there would of been nothing really ah need another six and that's it Six? Yeah Have a look there might be some more in there If not have a look down the bottom Have a look in those bins innit? Mm There's bound to be some in there, well there might not be, but Turning right Going round roundabout backwards go to the, the one with the A forty five, A forty three lane, with the two and there's suddenly to the next lane, another one went there at the side of him, it's eeeerrrr, hand on hooter and all of a sudden he goes back over again, he, he just didn't even know I were there, no signal, no nothing. I had visions it's for the thirty and they still, they don't have a don't they? Yeah They were he's gonna have me in a minute, you know, and I thought hand on hooter at all, but he weren't, you know, he weren't signalling where he was going he was just talking Mm so, I couldn't of got out the way if I'd of wanted to, cos I was about that much from the curb, I thought he's wandering a bit, you know, no one He was obviously looking for directions, but he certain to the inside in, working his way round it, he came from the outside and then he was coming in, you know. Ooh, ooh, there is some maniacs driving, huh Well you're alright if you're concentrating, but you might Mm, mm Mm we thought we'd see your Capri this morning You did, mm, mm It's a D reg no I'm alright, you can see Was it clean when you sold it? What you got? I won them, You trusted next thing he knows after a week it er, finds it and then it's gone innit? Is there a price on it? Mm How much? Three, five, nine, five how much did he say for you saw it? Three, five So they're making ninety five quid? Yeah they'll make their money on them Is a knock on the price, you don't get a full profit with get ten vehicles before you get your profit They Wherever they pick my car up from auction Probably worked it out Mm? probably worked it out Well I don't see buying the car off er, them at Burton Lane, there's, there's, somehow you've got a good picture at Burton Lane What, because they want these vehicle raffle thing? it might not be their car could be a load of raffle Oh no Yeah the company who owned this Products or whatever they're called doesn't mean to say that's not proof of ownership Mm, yeah but it doesn't make a difference if you think about it, technically you buy a car on H P, that ain't your car you pay for it, then it's your car, but it's still registered in your name Mm, that car is mine out there, it's not the H P No, but you know what I mean the log book doesn't mean anything really they, they, well they just send what it for to the car, they didn't know what, what sort of car or the registration of it or something, they want to know, you know. They wanted to know what it roughly what it was for They said it doesn't matter what it's for mm, holiday even or just money to spend My hair I bet you take ten minutes on your hair now won't you? No it stays like it permanent, when I wake up in the morning What it's like that? Yeah Oh er it is seriously, it's like that blindfold Oh er It is, it is So you're not cutting it off? No So if I mess it up then now, when you come over to pick me up later it shall still be messed up? No, alright, yeah Alright then, we'll see, I ain't got no aftershave to put on tonight, you're gonna have to bring a bottle out with you Mark so I can slap some aftershave on Why? Cos I ain't got none Well, you don't have to whack it on You do, you do when you're entertaining You said you don't Ah Oh I ain't I might not be, I doubt if I will be Have to buy some I don't like Orion I do, I've got some Lynx spice at home You smell that and it smells like sweaty armpits It's horrible I wanted Jarva but they didn't have it Oh I like Jarva Mm mm I can feel little prickles coming through under my nose, mm Probably just nipped the skin when you've erm No start growing again No you've probably nipped the skin when you took your moustache off Mm, it went numb yesterday, completely numb, and dead I'm surprised up there for ages, have you? No for years It's all couldn't take it Like, whack, whack, like oh dear Have you some of them Mark? I might Oh Well if you wanna see me tonight no I watch that tomorrow night Oh I don't watch that, it's a load of rubbish, Enjoyed it last week Yeah, but Jeff I might be getting the real thing tonight, er, ah, you'll be Mm On the way home we'll pop round the evening telegraph, tell them oh, er dogs recorded That's alright What didn't it? What did? No, sure you can record it as much as you like, it don't matter, mm I'll be getting it tonight She'll be too tired after her aerobics She said she's working till six, and then going to aerobics Mm, mm been on ages We're gonna play these tapes in my car tonight, have a good laugh, especially if somebody does turn up, I'll say here are listen to this, this is what I think of about all at work today, what I'm gonna do, mm she'll say come on then, better get on with it, and I'll go, yeah baa, baa, shepherd, baa, baa, baa shepherd You'll be seeing humpty I had about that last night, Marcus Peter He reckons that he didn't say nothing No How did you know then? I was just going aahh no way you saw do this, yeah , no way did you get it Marcus pewtall wood,pewtall Marcus's nick name is pewtall wood ,pewtall I don't look like flumps You do You look like humpty dumpty Does he? Yeah No I don't Yeah and the we we Er? weeble No he don't I bet he does He wouldn't, next one though I'm gonna stick a mark up me backside and do it, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh You'll hear it coming down the anal passage There's still a penguin in that bottle I know there is Ain't you gonna eat it? No, a pick up a penguin A pick up a penguin right, great, come on then Jeff say something pardon it didn't pick that up he said bollocks, Jeff just said bollocks , that's good oh if tonight we would, see me driving along in the car and got that on, oh no, it'll be really funny, we're gonna be sitting there going come on as if we'd said that today Ben I won't have this tonight though Why? Cos I have to give it back Ah no, still got that other tape you taped from last night haven't you? Yeah You'll bring that out with you I ain't listened to it all myself yet Yeah we can listen to it in the car, I wanna hear what was going on I took this out last night Jeff, right, and er, I put it in my pocket and I put, put the mike, strap the mike to it, it's gone like that, no one knew, I was driving the car and I recorded everything that was in the car all night no one knew until the end of the night, I got the tape home, I go this is gonna be interesting I had to do it on one of my tapes though Cor a conifer's still in that bag It'll be alright cos they've been sealed in a plastic bag there ain't no muck on the root, it weren't the root, it were washed must be when I looked at it they'd been grown in the field, because it's burnt, you can see it's got this reddish muck where all the mud down that area is reddish anyway, when you'll, and they've been washed you see, they've been rinsed off in water, to get all the muck off, and then put in bags of ten cos when you touch them you get all this red stuff all on you, red muck, they come through the post In a big, big bag in a big plastic bag with a big warning perishable if delayed mm, so there it ain't bad though I mean twenty two pounds for fifty, work that out yeah, plus I didn't charge for postage either two or three quid isn't there? Mm mm, cos the bag how long where you seen them? About that round, massive great bag mm You know he didn't take it in Mm well the little piece of had been kind of, or whatever they are Mr F and then on the back it's got for Peggy's six foot high and under plant eighteen inches apart for high six foot plus plant two feet apart I mean Christmas ones are only a couple of foot apart, there's only about that much between them, you know? And then, they grow together Mm? Yeah She gives you a better ground, ground cover if they're two far apart, you get big gaps at the bottom Yeah, that's why you keep the tops chopped, cos they actually comes out by themselves, they'll come out and into the garden as well you see, not only longways, but quite wide Yeah I'll be planting mine right up against the metal fence Yeah so hopefully they should grow through the fence, come out the other side and eventually the fence will be hidden such as well it's got my electric cable running through that fence you see Oh Well it actually doesn't very, it doesn't touch the actual fence it erm all along the concrete poles they've got holes through them where you can put some wire different higher of fence you see wire through each lead, you know, put back through each one, where you going? The shop What for? Thanks a lot, bye Mm, that's right though, there should be a they make out,wh ,wh , what's all that about then, vote for at the next election or something? No mm the B N P party What happened to the B N I thought it was the National Front actually B N P huh British Nationalist Party mm that sounds a good party to vote for Have you had your leaflet through the door yet? No You're obviously the last people to have them then, I think everybody else has had them I want the phone bill to lob into them as well, but I ain't got one all round the trees, like that woman did with her husband cos she, she was a bit of a lunatic and er and er so one night she gave him, come in a bit paralytic, wanted a drink, so she give him a drink with a load of tranquillisers in Mm, mm he passed out that killed him and found him in the garden, it took four years to find him really? Whenever, anybody asked where he was, oh he was abroad working abroad Oh those trees will grow really quick anyway, cos they're so many goodness in the ground in their garden, it's bloody amazing never think to and I reckon what it is they spray the fields with all this stuff and all that lot, yeah, and then when it, when it rains you see cos it's a lot of clay It can't be washed away so easy Yeah it does, it all washes down into the garden you see cos the garden's on a slope and the field, the field slopes straight into the garden, and when we have, when we really have lots and lots of rain, you look out your back windows and there's about that much lying there, cos it's running down and it can't get past the houses, so it just builds up and floods Yeah, I shall make sure the er path between your houses is lower than anything else, so it takes it away Mm, my patio's going down there Oh you can't patios No, it'll be alright Mm, you wait until we have that heavy rain Er want, it want by the time I spent just it's gonna be flat to the, and I'm gonna build a wall about two foot high and level the garden Yeah and level with the top of the garden Yeah so it'll all be level so that Yeah, it'll still come down though won't it? No it wouldn't, can't, can't not at the ground level, it will sit at the top No it won't, no it won't, seep through earth eventually No, but it wouldn't seep through that wall though will it? No it'll go round it, won't it? Down it or under it It'll go in next door's garden then, mm It'll either go round it or under it won't it? Mm What about size, right up to the house innit? Mm right up to the house Mm the patio, not the wall No you can either go round it or, or under it the wall just going to go straight across the garden Yeah, what are you gonna have some steps up? Yeah, steps in the middle, yeah That's it and that's where the water will come through No come down them steps and straight through your house Er, er, er I'm going to put a drain in anyway, in the middle of the patio Yeah, but where? What? Where you gonna Into the sewer, cos there's a drain bit just where the patio's gonna be and the drain what comes out the outfill the washing machine away Yeah and I just have, well put another pipe in just put another pipe in it knock a couple of bricks out and knock a pipe in and that's no I didn't want to leave a little, only want to leave a proper little drain things, you know It's probably a six high inch pipe underneath there I should think Mind you, them, actually they straight underneath the back door Then they all go along the back Mm with them along the back Mm I ain't worked out how the sewers goes to the Mm I think it goes underground nex , our next door neighbour's house, and out, the only we've got, is at the back of the house right, and then it goes up there, then that is the houses and it goes down to the sewer in the road, so er I didn't know no, no, no, that's what I can't understand, no I think it's about a hundred years old you see, probably erm thinking about sewers ain't they? Yeah, probably not, it'll pocket out the window job mm so as long as they er didn't actually have You had toilets out in the garden, didn't you? Yeah, that's why you see, we've converted, put a wall up where the door were and knocked the wall down and had a door into the house That's chaos that is innit? Yeah, see all these trees as well, clean all the air, all the air and the ozone and convert carbon dioxide not, not, not carbon dioxide back to oxygen can't they? them might not even go straight to but half way from the lawns here, I'm thinking actually about having a round lawn, right, Yeah, that's harder even on the to keep cut easier to cut it square well have a square one, but where, half way up in between the fish pond and the lawn I was thinking of come in, in again with the edge both sides, sort of like, where it goes, where they go straight, come in sort of like plant two there or three there, two there, one there, you see so it does it into a point again, both sides you get two I wanna plant a maze actually in my garden , that's what I want, you'll be amazed Mark wait till I start digging my pond cos Marcus is coming over to help me, yeah he is No problem ten minutes no it's not this gonna be twenty foot wide and four foot deep, no not twenty foot wide, twelve foot wide, twelve foot square and four foot deep where you put all that earth? Mm, it banks up the other side banks up the other side you see and then once the pond's all in you sort of landscape it all down and you use it as a rockery, I want the anyway to go the other side on the other no it's been there two years I'd just chuck it over fence and that's where all the All the rubbish goes all the rubbish out of our garden is over there, in the field Yeah lots of all, lots of wire and bricks and stones and old potatoes, you want to see potatoes that grow in that field, there's never been potatoes in that field before, but there is, we throw all the dicey ones over the fence Why don't you throw it in the dustbin? The dustbin's round the other garden, the field's nearer I bet the farmer loves you. It's alright growing potatoes in his field Mm It is when you've got another crop there innit? We, we , we said it's about time they grew potatoes in that field So you could pinch them Yeah, so we could, yeah, you know, it'll, it'll be a lot better, I mean all they do is grow either that grain or corn Erm they wouldn't grow, they can't grow grain or use two or three times in succession, but then for that another seven years because it takes so much goodness out the erm thing, there's so many diseases and they got to change their crop after a while There's been corn Yeah, grain's horrible because it's smells terrible, it really gets to you. They bale it all up through, when you go and nick a load of bales Like they use in the big railway days No, no they've got a square Yeah Ooh, yeah, you'll be seen I would my conifers are gonna go across the garden in between and then they're gonna go round the top, so nobody will be able to get into it, out the back anyway unless they're, unless they climb through them, you can't climb through the conifers when there Yeah you can't get through, no possible way No, I really wanna, liked to have you will cos it wouldn't get through will it? It will, they'll make a hole through it They can't cos I've got that metal fence through it They'll go above the metal fence That's right they will do, how high is the metal fence? Two or three feet? Three feet, it jumped it at the moment, but when the conifers are there it can't though in the middle of the hedge It can't do that, hello it's only me Ben you're always driving here and there I tell you we ain't got no more of these No Ah, yeah Ah it smells horrible Yeah I'll help you do your erm Yeah fine, OK Fine if Andrea's there If Andrea's there I bet cos while I'm doing that I innit? no God knows how they do Hard core you know the score it's so dodgy behind my house where's the odd five gone? Ah? Where's the odd five? I don't know I think done them all now What? done all these I could Lucozade, Lucozade Oh wow, no way I'm not hundred percent Yeah I tell you what when you packed up smoking it was last cigarette you Yeah, well I thought it was Yeah I know that The money I've spent on cars, I mean Can do, it does you know, so I don't smoke now cos of my breath you see, if I had a fag she'd go straight away Oh dear me Oh that bloody crap Well how did she know, ah? What's that? I said you'll be seeing when you watch that and you'll start crying Do what? When you start crying when you watch that video Oh sure Yeah Yeah I bet you do You bet I do, do you? Yeah You must be joking Bring tears to the eyes, all that Yeah, no, yeah been kick in the bollocks , you'll have to take that off there yeah you can You cried didn't you Mark? No Oh yes you did. No, no I didn't. I know you did, you did. No I didn't. Carol told me Oh, er yes she did no, so did you It's a sad film though It is sad When that white light comes down at the end Turn this up a bit cos my missus Get the tissues out Get the tissues out, that's it Have you seen it? Yeah Show the bit in when he starts going, you think I've jumped Yeah that's all it were Yeah it was far weren't it? No, but if you noticed right, the only people who got them, yeah, were the people who killed people Mm and the only people who and everybody who killed people got those nasty ones, cos I was sitting there thinking that, and I watched it through again why I might get a there's that old boy sits there and go he does it every time and he's sitting there you know going blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, there and there's that Hell of a good film though, it's the best film I've seen in a long time. Oh yeah Yeah and there's that old boy in the leave me alone, he obviously did jump didn't he? Yes, when he run off, he jumped in front of it didn't he? Mm, he reckons he was pushed Yeah I know, he, you think I jumped, I was pushed That was Annie Lennox You should be Prince Charles I said yeah This one a complete prat No, just a help me out No No say right, yeah Freddy Mercury you can come up on the stage, don't you think? No Why not? Cos they'll see you and think yuck oh, you look nothing like him, you've got blond hair for starters I'll dye it she's done a runner, oh dear me, naughty, naughty innit? Who's she running off, some other bloke? I don't know An American millionaire or something Who she, who, who, who is it? Fergie No I didn't like her anyway That ginger hair thing? Yeah A bit like I've only putting these green yeah Obviously cos I've got the green ones oh Don't know, no I don't think so somehow Mark Don't know O N D I listen to O N D Do you like O N D? Yeah, they're alright aren't they? I like a couple of their songs How about Depeche Mode, have you ever heard of them? Yeah Do you like them? No No, oh, I've got one of Ah, what? no How about the do you remember them? No No No They're saying that remember? No Don't you remember that other one, the one No It whistled virtually all the way through, it went don't you know it? No Where have you been? Where have you been? Not on this planet Try and remember Boney M Yes Well then don't remember the old era yeah, why not? What you gotta ask Andrea later? For the tape Nice ah, got will you remember when she gets there? Probably not What if I write it on your forehead and then she'll see it won't she? God she's gonna have something to say to you about your hair No I was thinking no you've gotta let her see your hair No no, Carol will tell her she'll got tell Andrea I've had all my hair cut off as well Oh no, what have you done to your hair it's all coming out Where? What have you done to it, on top? Just there? No the other side, all on top it comes sticking up Ah Oh dear me has it gone down again? No it's, it's sticking it way out there No It is seriously it's got a big curl sticking up on there Oh er it's all at the back where? All on top, you see, it's quite weird No it ain't sticking up, you liar It is You're a liar and I'm gonna have a look in the mirror in a minute I know it ain't sticking up. It weren't at first but it is now where? I drive into the, I'll drive round into the tower park then drive straight back out again, I'll make you run after me I wouldn't run after you not this time You'll go OK, good enough If I ain't in the square then don't ask me where I will be Why I won't will I, I won't ask them where you'll be will I, cos you won't be there, so I can't ask you can I? Ha, ha, ha, you know what I mean and he's there for four to five hours with just live entertainment, you know during the meal. So you know it's er quite a big thing. Right so don't get enough . Mm yeah it's a shame innit? Loads there I tell you what a lot of it is erm if, if they're gonna get married, people won't want for anything. They, they'll drop literally everything. It's nice innit? Mm. Well it's like you say, if they work there they work. If they don't they don't do they? You, you know it must be just like er the Mexican manyana, you know. Yeah yeah yeah. Erm Alexandro, the bloke who lived next door Yeah? Well, he lives in a shed. He says er do you like hazelnuts? Yeah. And I thought he was gonna come up with, you know, a dish. He's got a bloody Tesco's carrier bag full. He didn't! I've got loads of erm Yeah! Tons of it, you know. loads of negatives of those see them. Where are we? This is No, well come about Christmas time, you know That's that's all taken in that's all taken in the gardens. Are you alright? Mm. Down there? Yeah. Do you wanna sit here? No I'm alright. That's all taken in the gardens and and inside the building of the palace of . . During the war the princess or the queen of that area and all her and everything, they all left. They just abandoned it. And the place has been left ever since and they just look after it. If you step inside it's really ooh ? No no, these are, these are not waterfalls. They're all steps dad. There's about twelve steps. And in each step as you walk along it, and it's a, it's a goldfish pond. It's lovely. You'll see the fish. It's lovely though innit. Here you are dad, sit here. Dad, sit there. come along. Come on. the right sort of lifestyle. you know . If you've got opportunity,place, but not work again. That would be nice wouldn't it? Of course, the problem in that area is it's a, the earthquakes Yeah. There's a lot of tremors. But this Alexandro, his house is er cracked from corner to cornerl Is it really? Yeah. And it's about that wide. So they've got to re-do the foundations and everything Yeah. So he's been for two years. And I couldn't stand that. No. If it's I want to get it fixed again. Yeah. Get it back to normal. Mm. the weather's lovely, you know? Yeah it is innit? And even the, the winter's are not basically cold. They go down to about fifteen degrees. That's mild innit? That's mild . We've gotta go soon anyway. When we was there in October, it was twenty four degrees. And like you say, they've got jumpers on Who's a lovely boy? I've moved that, I moved that so he didn't knock it over cos he were knocking it with his tail. Well it don't matter. I've gotta find where they were though first. Where were they? Which one did I have them in? This one. That's This is a place now from Tony's on some of those photos you're looking at when he was in the garden see the mountains. This is a place called . It's a mountain that you can see, one of these four mountains. Now this is,Rocetta is the first campsite that Hannibal had when he went through the alps with his el elephants. Oh. Oh. if you like. And we went up there, oh dear, driving up there you're going up on this little tiny when you've got a big car. Like this. Little tiny road about this wide, you go round a corner and you think your wheel's gonna fall down the side and then you meet somebody coming down. Ooh it's horrifying. Oh it's, it is, it's lovely. I shall de I shall go back. Driving through Italy is an experience. You know I mean they're terrible drivers. Well yeah they've got a reputation haven't they? Well they . Now you've got I mean the autostradas that they build aren't as good as, as, nowhere near as good as the autobahns in er in Germany and through th you know, Switzerland and that. I mean Switzerland in Switzerland the roads are . You get into Italy . You've gotta pay to go through, all these tolls which we did okay cos what we done we bought a pack which gave us petrol coupons. And got money back, the ones we didn't use We used all our time, we ended up having to pay in the end. It's only about like a pound But when it rained, going down I mean going down it rained so much I thought we'd never, never even going to get there. I mean the car stopped once. Went through water this deep . I went to erm the guy I work with is a Belgian and I was invited to his birthday party. In Munchengladback the Belgians community . And er this man, Patrick, his m parents came up and his mother started talking to me. And I was trying to explain something to her in German. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. was about maybe twelve degrees. she were drinking, it's called Trappiste And the beer was from eight to degrees to si sixteen degrees. Ooh. And she was Yeah, yeah. But er the blokes were looking at her just sitting there Yeah. It looks like this,Trappiste A bit sharper in the colour but Yeah. Ooh. I like given it up now. British during the day. It's not too bad, Germany but I mean it's not as good as No it ain't. Ooh. But I would like to Yeah, very nice . But erm when the weather's Oh yeah, pretty place that isn't it? fine yes it's a lovely place. How did you find Tony? Is he er coping? Well he weren't too bad dad but he's been really poorly. I think he I think he does too much. He he worries too much. Yeah but he does too much as well. He does loads of jobs. No, he worries about not worrying. You say to him don't worry about it. You know, it'll be alright just have a good time. But he doesn't, he worries Where is that ? about not worrying. I mean, you know, what what can you do about it? That's Monte Casino Oh if you've heard of Monte Casino . Well it's a place in Italy where the Germans tried to take it. You're best not worry But you see with him being ill, he worries about not being able to bring money in. You know, to the family. And Philomena says well it's alright you you're ill. You can't bring it in. So she works and the, the two kids work and they get by and there's no problem. But erm he does, he he worries a lot and I think that's half his trouble. Yeah, yeah. Is it the er is it the family house? You know a No erm they sold Philomena's family out. But when she was over here, she sold up and her sister sold up at the same time. And they went back and they bought this really big house, well it wasn't a house it was a shell. Just you know, floorboards and a roof. And they've converted it to two flats. Philomena and Tony live upstairs and the sister lives downstairs. And it's three big bedrooms er a small kitchen. There's a, a living room and a lounge. Big bathroom and toilet you know, and verandah To value it over here you're talking about fifty thousand pound. But there I think it's thereabouts twenty thousand, between More probably sixty or seventy in this area if you've got a good house. Did it as they want it sort of you know? Yeah, yeah. I bet it's beautiful innit? What are houses going for in the old Yorkshire way? I don't know. Haven't got a clue. I know my sister's mortgage has just gone down. Do you know how much she pays a month? Eighteen pound. Cor! Because she bought the house in the, you know,six in the sixties. Phew. Mid to mi mid to late sixties she bought her house and just this is their second house and, you know, that's all the mortgage was. And that's just showing you what inflation's like. What's the rent on these now? Er six pounds. Six pound weren't it? Yeah, yeah. thirty now. And they stormed it, it's built up on a high, you'll see the photo of it when, where it and they protected, there's a film about it, where the erm Well the name rings a bell. I expect Yeah. old films really but I don't like war films. I like the old fashioned I don't like the modern stuff . But erm this was cos the Germans were so angry cos they couldn't get up there and they lost so many men up there . But erm they were so mad they bombed it. They, they took all their stuff. All their special, you know, relics and that and they put them all in the cellars so when it was bombed, all the precio all the treasures and that were kept. came back up again and they rebuilt it. Mm. These are all the old erm armed forces' old shells and hats and things you see. All the different hats, there's German's, Italy's British Oh yeah. all sorts of hats there. Tony, not my Tony but Tony who is Maria's son, Maria is Philomena's sister. Oh yeah. Her son said he hadn't see that, he said,. so I said go on then so he said, well he He came to England, his mum had lived in England in Bedford . Went back to Italy. He'd only been back there about three or four weeks and they conscrip conscripted him. Conscripted for two years. Mm. And they get terrible pay though. Mm. Terrible pay. It's only . See there he is up there. Oh yeah. So Yeah it's thirty nine a week. actually but Well when we came in forty odd forty odd years ago it was twenty three and six a week. Mm . For these houses. Now we're thirty odd pounds. your maximum's only about a hundred and ten to a hundred and twenty a week. Yeah. And you've got your tax out of it. And when you get a rent like that. Really you pay eighty pound a week haven't you? Yeah. your stoppages. Stoppages, yeah. at least fifty pound a week to pay for your food Yeah. and living costs. Yeah. Then you've got your water, your gas. Yeah. . You can see why people don't work in this country. Well this is what That's it. You can, yeah. I mean you'd be surprised. I mean it's chea effectively it's cheaper to live over there. Yeah, Yeah. The taxes are high mind you. Yeah. And you pay for your er your medical expenses and things but it's cheaper. but they were cheap. Yeah. And you pay for quality. It's Quality, yeah. Yeah. We didn't go into we passed the leaning tower of Pisa. But it was sort of let me think it was over and it only looked about that big. Oh yeah. But it really amazing just to see it, you know? Yeah. We're driving down this road and I said well Pisa's down here Yeah. Oh it's a lovely palace, it really is. That reminded me of Versailles. That's the Polish cemetery and all the way round This is the erm Canadian and British, all this the joint you know forces. Allied forces. Allied forces, that's right. That's the Polish and there's an Italian one. Oh yeah. And a bit further away the German one. Yeah yeah, I won't be long. That's a nasty cough you've got. Yeah look this is I know. This is I know it's terrible innit? This is Tony, Maria's son. Oh yeah. chest And there's Tony. And there's my Tony . And we all had dinner that night, and every time somebody said Tony, well Oh dear I'm ready if you are then Get some wood shavings and Yeah. That's full time job that is. I can't get over him, he looks just looks like . What's he actually do, for a living? What does he Well he's, he works in some factory and the partner he does, he does erm chimney sweeping with the old . He earns quite a bit of money from that Vino vino, whatever you know? And he used to go round the side get through bottle a day. no more. So he never drinks no more. He is thin really cos he looks, he looks he looks twenty years older than me. He sounds just like Alan I know they do. Yeah just like them. Well Clare reckons Sally Sally That's Sally Dunno. Emily, that's Emily yeah. Is it? Is it? Yeah. Doesn't she look like Sally? So does er Deborah looks like Sally when she's got her glasses on. And Laura's got glasses now Look at this Tony, look who Well I've got it it's Sally. And it's who? Emily. Emily. Steven's little here we come past Steven's house. Oh did you? Which one is it? She says it must be one of them along there. You know. It's got daffodils all up the side of the rails. this bloke, he cracked up. There's a wall stands about this high and he's do he does his duty on top of the wall. Sits down like that and he does a dooberry on top of the wall . Yeah, tell you what he does, he gets his back legs up on top of the wall and he does it on top. This bloke he cracked up. He couldn't stop laughing. Either that or he backs into reverses into a hedge. Yeah, yeah. He never does it on a path or nothing, he always reverses in somewhere. Yes he is, very Nearly long enough for a dress innit? I had another one, came right down here mum. A lovely one. And I picked up a load of washing the other day and put it in the washing machine and I washed it. And it come out . Eh? Well that one's nearly long enough for a dress Oh , I can't wear them that short now. Not with my legs. Well they wear them with these leggings don't they? Coloured leggings and sh ever so short dresses the youngsters. Yeah. Mm. Is this Tony's dog? Yeah that's Sally. Oh we had such fun with her, that curtain. What were you, what were you doing? Oh he flashed the camera and it didn't, she didn't like the flash. You know you can just flash it ? Mm. Yeah so we just went pretended to take a photo and she'd psshoooow and she'd shoot off. And then she'd peep her head under the curtain to see if it had gone so we took a photo of her and off she'd go again . Ever so funny. . Italian doggy Oh my bum's still sore. It it's sitting in those chairs I was yeah sitting on them, on them sloping chairs Oh my bum hurts sitting on those sloping chairs on the, on the ferry. I c we we bought these two sloping cha I reckons she's got blinking piles. We bought these two sloping chairs right and Tony, where our seats were there was a big light in the ceiling, a big round light there, and it shone straight in the side of me eye I said we can't sit here. How are you supposed to go to sleep with that flipping light there? I kept moaning. So in the end I went upstairs, left Tony to it and I came back down and I tried to go to sleep again, I put me coat over me head and I couldn't sleep so I moved. I went three seats down Well you, you'd think it what's, you know it's sunk into the ceiling. It just gives a, a glow off. We were sat See it wouldn't affect some people but It doesn't bother me I can't sleep with a light on. I can't sleep with the light on. No. cos the, the gap between the chairs is about six or eight inches And it hurts me eyes Well I don't you know, haven't got my hearing aid on, I don't hear any noises in the night. But if your dad switches the light on for anything I always go to bed before Tony. I'm I'm I'm terrible. I'm sometimes in bed by half past nine. And if he comes to bed and puts the light on. He's got a lamp by the side of his bed And then you wake up and walk sideways don't you ? you can dim. So I put it on the dim switch so as he can see to get in the bedroom. Now if he happens to knock it or he, he lights it up or I always wake up. Always. go and do some work. If I don't put that light on and he comes in and puts the light on, I wake up just like that. What's the er in the background. Well that's some erm it's no significant it's it's just innit? No it's the other side of Which way is it? Oh it's the other side. Lovely innit? Yeah. Have you got any money on you? Not on me, no. No,. Oh alright I'll got and get So I wanna next time I wanna go to Berne. I wanna go on holiday and I wanna go somewhere near Berne. Yeah she always wants to go to the expensive places. Yeah but it's I wanna go there because you can ski. I wanna learn, I skiing. Where? At Berne. Switzerland? Yeah. Or even staying in Germany. She wants to I just wanna have a go at skiing. My friend's just had a go at skiing. Skiing? Oh she, Julie thought it were lovely. Well I'd I'd like to just try it you know? Cos you get a lot of snow in Germany but we haven't had much in the last two years. are you taking yourselves somewhere? I'm going now. But I used to like my little Hillman Imp. yeah, yeah. mine's only it's only a you know about nine hundred and sommat C C engine No I don't like big cars but I I like a car where I'm in charge. Well if, I tell you, if I thought if I thought for one minute that we were gonna come back to England like in the next year, which we won't cos Tony's got another year to do now, it's a bit longer than we thought it was Mm. but if I thought we were coming back, I'd get myself a little car. You know I, I can't drive that big Well I can. I mean I can move it and I can make i but I, I don't don't like it. It's too big for me. I like it being a passenger oh I don't like driving and the wheel's on the wrong side. Are you getting used to the opposite side of the road now? It's easy Yeah. Yeah. When you think it's nearly two years since I've been here. Yeah, yeah it is innit? Last time we came home we, we came off the motorway and . And wrong side of the road so chap coming round met us It is confusing, yeah. It is confusing that is. Oh well I opposite side of the road's nothing to me now cos I, I live on my bike. I'm always on me bike. We came out the, out the ferry port and you're alright going straight on to the boat, it's when you've gotta turn right. Very easy to simply turn into this lane instead of going right the way over to the other side. Yeah. You do it without thinking. That's where I fall down straight away. Mm. When I'm on me bike. I'll be down there in front of them cars. And we've got right of way now. why they don't change over in this country because we're the odd one out and if they make cars they've gotta make them with the steering wheel one side or the other Well yeah but think of the chaos it would cause, swapping over Yeah. ooh think of the chaos it would cause What you need, cos I remember reading about when they changed over, I think it was in Denmark or somewhere Eh? and at a certain time everything stopped. All the traffic, it was all sort of er arranged that at a certain time all the traffic stopped to the other side. To, to change this, the British road system to the same as the continent would be easy. You take away all the road It would be easier for the car manufacturers wouldn't it? That's it yeah. Yeah. have to make cars with the steering wheel one side or the other. Well I think it would be ideal take away the roundabouts. I I think Roundabouts are better off congestion. but I mean No way. No way. I prefer them. traffic lights I do. No, they're no good. Prefer them to traffic lights. Well over there you see we don't get many traffic lights. You don't get many traffic lights or roundabouts. Although in Germany amazing roads. You don't see any cars three or four roundabouts. Well you see i i yeah but it's a bigger country and I mean it's so congested in England. You've gotta have some sort of Even in town you don't have roundabouts. traffic control haven't you? Well there's no roundabouts in the town. It's all filtered innit? It's all filtered on. Mm. Yeah but I mean I suppose it's what you're used to. got priority. I couldn't believe Well when was there that fortnight and it seemed ever so strange when we car with the driver sitting that side and all the traffic coming by the other way, it seemed mad to me cos of just those few weeks, I didn't get time to get Ah no. acclimatized to it. You'll have to come longer. I told you you should come longer. Mm? You'll have to come longer. It's, it's, it's a thing that could be done in this country It needs it. Yeah but when wh But er it would cause chaos for a time Yeah. especially with pensioners Oh yeah, it would. Right I'm gonna go But not only that but you, there'd be a point where We're going We'll see you later. Did Marcus, did Marcus take that wine to work? No he really liked it. Yeah he liked it. He got a bit flushed though. his face were all flushed. He didn't drink it all himself? No he gave us a glass each Oh . and then he had he'd only had a couple I think before he went home but he doesn't drink much see. He come down, his face were all flushed Right so I'll see you later mum Let Marion taste your medicine. I'll see you again mum, okay? see you later Bye. See you later Ta ta. Bye. See you later. Ta ta Marje. I named a duck I had this letter come no no no no, I had this letter come, right, and it said now they've got this duck and they didn't know what to call it and so Gemma said well I think erm Eileen, Auntie Eileen ought to name it so I, I was asked to name this duck. So I said well I think Drucilla's a nice name for a duck. And now they call it Drucilla the duck. It's, is this it's a lady duck presumably? Well I it's a lady. Yeah they'd have said a drake otherwise. Well yeah, true. I I call them all ducks, but there you are. Well they all look like ducks. But they've got both you see and they refer to them as the ducks or the drakes so they Yeah one of the main streets. Who is? Right. I'd better go mother We should be,we we're only here for a little while cos I'm going to spend some time with the girls cos I ain't see their Yeah, yeah. Sarah for as long as I can, well as long as I Well I mean I've seen, I did see Rob last Ju Ju Well I ain't seen Sarah since our party at least. I ain't seen Sarah since the party, no. Same as you and, and Marje I their Marjie she started to cry when I went . Didn't know what I were gonna do with her. Ah,? Yeah, bless her. She did, she started crying Well it surprised her I expect cos we weren't expecting you so early. No I was surprised when I came in. I rang up Derek and Jenny came up to tell us and she said er Eileen'll be coming on the twentieth and she won't be here till between eleven and twelve. Well I didn't think we would be. I was surprised Tony never did get round You know, because he's . And he's . And he hasn't got anybody, anybody near him. But he thinks he has. Yeah. And that's his trouble, he thinks Yeah but he won't you see, it's it's, it's his personal pride. But he's got to realize that he is ill and the more he worries the, the, the worse he's gonna get. conscientious. when he does his, his er chimney sweeping. You know, erm he charges oh, fifteen pounds for labour. And he a funeral parlour . Fantastic job. so he must be doing good work . But for him to go self-employed will cost him more money than doing it on the bl black market. So he doesn't go self-employed. Well he were working er weren't he, at one time? Yeah, yeah. What were he doing? Labouring. It were just a labouring job. Mm. Look's nice. Yeah that was . The the, the house is in such a position erm it's, it's in a cul-de-sac, well the road goes up this . There's a house at the end . And you can see never did get round to hoovering the carpet. I did s bit of dusting and then they came in and I just le Well when you've had your holiday that's nice If you wanna come, drive over on the thing and come, what we'll do, we'll do what we do when we bring Pat and Alan. Pat and Alan are coming right? They came and stayed with us when we but erm they're coming over and they're coming to our house on the Thursday and on the Saturday morning we're driving down to which is down near . It's a lovely part of Germany, you've got fields and vine valleys and oh it's a lovely area. We've driven down that's a s similar way to where we went to Switzerland Oh yeah. down there. But we're going there, spending a week down there with them and then they're coming and spending a week four days with us and then they're going back. Mm. So do that. We'll go somewhere . Hartz mountain is supposed to be really wonderful. the Hartz mountain where you went Yeah that's where we went when we went on that ferry Yeah well I ain't been there yet, but we're near there where we're going. It is lovely there, yeah. Yeah we're near there and, and did you go down near Bavaria there, did you go to Bavaria then? No, we only, we were just you know Or did you go up way? we were Hartz mountains and drove,drove and we we had a, rented a place, a flat A place there called A Altenhow Altenhow , that's supposed to be nice, in the Hartz mountains. Well that's where we went, where erm if I can remember, erm er what was the name ? I can't remember the na oh that was an Yeah, yeah. ancient town yeah. Yeah that's Erm and some place that's a skiing resort in the winter is that the place you mean? Yeah. Yeah that's a really old Yeah. ancient sort of town. I'm trying to think of the name lots of little towns that were Yeah they were all er all the way through, yeah. Cos they're easy to get to each of them, aren't they, apparently? Yeah, yeah. Yeah that's what we Well, yeah Well I mean Ton well I'm alright. I just don't, I just don't like, if it was a little car I wouldn't mind. And I'm seriously thinking of getting something but I ain't gonna, not yet. Not till I can afford to go out and buy one. No. I'm not gonna go and right, well anyway I'm, I'm Well it's been lovely to see you. Alright? We'll see you again. Yeah. Pop Well we're coming again this year but we don't know when. Well you'll have to come over ours. Yeah we will do. We'll, we got we gotta go to gotta go and see our Tim. He's really upset because we haven't been to Devon. It's such a long way you know Yeah. if I go to Devon I can't come and s up this end Are you going this time? No. there's more people this end, we can't get there dad. It's a, it's er it's a long old drive. I promised him I'd go this year though. I know it is. It's it's a long way. How long you got? Altogether? Well just this week. We've only got a week. went down on the bus it would take him That's right, You see if we go we drive. We've gotta spend overnight and come back. There's two days. Well I promised our our Sarah I'd spend some time with her I ain't gonna say too much but she does get a bit upset at times You see the thing is wh when we come home we've got such a su such a, a distance to cover, you know it's, it's difficult. I mean the fact is when you're over here, how long are you over here for? Well we're going back on Saturday. Saturday. Well it means you don't have time. No. You've gotta travel That's the trouble. all over the country and you can't do it You just can't no. That's what we said to Tim. We, we can't get down there because that's two days you know? And I have g I have paid for English lights just for the sake of a week You can't satisfy all of them. No. That's the point. Yeah well It's just a question of you coming and doing your best. Yeah. See the other You can't do any more. the other thing about coming over is it's bloody expensive in England. Yeah I know. You know? And er w when I came over before and we did Hull you know Warwickshire and I did twelve hundred miles in ten days. Well it's a lot of driving Yeah. you know? I needed a rest when I got back. And it's a strain It is, you know? Especially these days on these roads. Yeah. Well Yeah. And they er adopted a scheme last year when they cut off part of the high street from traffic. Mm. And you went down the high street and you turned sharp left and went along Dock Street and circling supermarket at the bottom end of town That's right yeah. Yeah. They've cut that out now. Oh. You go straight down again. And consequently the the high street uncertain now Ooh Yeah. And they're all doing their shopping . I'm er I'm a believer in er pedestrian precincts you know? Because if you want to do shopping or just window shopping, you should park outside of the town or on the outskirts of the town and you can walk in or you can get the the bus service Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's just as easy. But that's the problem, bus service Well yeah in this country today the Well it isn't a bus service is it, you know? No. Because you feel obliged to them don't you? Providing a service. been destroyed. Yeah. I think the best move they made in in, in recent years has been the introduction of what they call the and it travels all the way in the town. And forty pence you can get on and go up to your home, they pull up outside our gate. Yeah. And for forty pence It's been a godsend for us to go down the street shopping, if you've got a load of shopping you just stop right outside the gate. Yeah. They did that, they did that in er yeah they did that in Levington with er Yeah. taxis. You got and you, you a taxi came along and you paid him forty P or fifty P, whatever Mm. and you went anywhere on that route, yeah? And if you said you wanted to be off the route slightly, no problem he'd go around. That's it. Yeah. It has it's routes, it goes round and round Yeah. and you can go on it anywhere as far as you like for forty pence. And you can do the lot for forty pence. It even takes you over the hill into We can get down on the high street any of these times and it drops us back up here. Yeah. It's a circular route all the time, it keeps going back to the town centre Yeah. but it's ever so useful. Yeah. I it's excellent. It's superb for Yeah. for pensioners. But a lot of youngsters use it too. Yeah but I, I think that youngsters can abuse the system as well. Well well so far it's it, I mean the chap, he's very obliging, he We got our own get off. Oh and you talk into the Yeah. Yeah. ? Yeah. Our Marie's is a nice car innit? Nice little car innit? It's a nice little car. Yeah. She's had problems with it though. Talbot Solaro Yeah, nice little car. I wouldn't mind one like that. Talbot Solaro They've got three now they have to queue up. There's Alan's and Claire's Claire's. and Marion's and if the one that's nearest the house wants to get out first everybody else has to move . It's cold out there now. I've decided. Ooh so what time do you wanna be Tony? what time do you want What's the time now? Not yet erm Nearly twelve. Ooh yeah. Do you ever have to er Well you go when you're ready. While you're Can you drive with that? out I'll get some plates and all and er set the table. chip shop Well he can't drive now mum cos he's had a beer. Oh. So I'll go down here. Oh right-oh then. Yeah. Okay Where are you going? What? Where are you going? Chip shop. Oh this one here Oh I forgot about that when I said er Are they alright? They're alright down here, at least they were the last time we had them. We don't get them all that often. Well I'll go and get them. I'll get the case out the car. Now do you want me to give you something for them? And when you get back No no no. er I were a little bit shocked when I saw Tony though. Don't he look old? I hadn't realized he'd changed that much Saying about Tony, how old he looks. . But he's been very ill. Well how old is he? He's not as old as you is he? He's older than me. Fifty one is it? He's a year older than me. Year older than you? Oh I thought he was Fifty one. between you and Marion? He'll be he'll be fifty two this year. No no he's that year older Oh I get mixed up with their ages. Yeah he's a year older than me isn't he? He'll be fifty two this year, Tony. Yeah. But when you're very ill like that it ma it does make a difference doesn't it? Yeah it does. Yeah. Oh aye yeah. Wish I'd got me bike. Ain't used to walking. I usually bike. Hey! And don't stop and talk to anybody. I won't on the way I won't on the way back. . And put your coat on. Well look, I don't know what you're getting but one portion of chips'll be enough between us. Where's me coat? Eileen. What? One portion of chips'll be enough between us cos they give you quite a generous helping of chips so I Are you sure? Yeah. You want fish do you? Any particular sort of fish? Fried and dead. No just a piece of fish. And a few mushy peas. What you having? Chips. Few mushy peas. Mushy peas? Right, I'll get two tubs of mushy peas and erm Well see what they're like. They sell Chinese stuff as well. It's a Chinese place. Well no, I want fish and chips. Oh. We don't get proper fish and chips over there you see. It's the first thing Well we had some nice ones from that van that stopped near the Oh we did. town the centre, we had some there beautiful chips Oh who does? Oh yeah. I can make chips but it's the fish, the fish is different. They It's, it's not fresh fish No it isn't. in that sense because it you're so far in inland. Anyway I'll put some plates in the oven and er Well that's the problem you see. We get a chap come down from Grimsby. Aye. Used to come to Southam Oh did he? Yeah. Yeah well he comes down and he's here really. What for? Cos it Well he was here today. I could have got some, I don't know. I'd have got some this morning He was there. He sells a good variety too, good er no. I should, I should at least by half past . There's a good mix of species on offer, you know? Yeah. Oh yeah he's good Here I don't want that there, I shall Well I don't want it either. stab myself to death. Here you are. I'll see you in a bit then. Okay. Yes, put it that way. Have you got a bag? Wanna basket? Yeah, I wanna bag or something. Yeah cos I'm Erm well yeah but I want about I don't want do I? Oh alright. I want something they'll be wrapped up. fish and chips? I don't Are you coming ? You're coming back in are you Tone? Pardon? Well Tony's coming back in. Oh alright, leave the door open. Oh she's not gonna drive. What? She's walking, well she's running Well she said that she's not walking. For a start when she was talking about fish and chips she said well we'll pop along in the car and get them from Moor Road cos they have nice er chips there but then, being as Tony had had a drink he wouldn't drive so There's a bottle of wine here . It's a Moselle. Oh . Oh yeah, lovely. And we've got one there for Marcus as well. Oh wine is just Well thanks very much Tony. That's er er lovely. Well . Put it Put it up in front of the window . A string of beads of like that it was too low so I cut them down it was still too low and they ended up . four beads long Er well look, I've gotta go down the street. I shan't be long. Do you want us to take you? No . You stay till the end. What? put the back seat forward. Oh yeah, yeah it's all full. Yeah we've got the back seat full. You Are you sure? Yes, I'll just stroll down and come back . I shan't be gone long. If, if you pass Wills's shop and you see Georgina, my friend, you know that girl I spoke to Yeah. with the long hair? If you see her, tap on the window and tell her I'm here will you? I might pop in and see her if I get a chance but Look look Jenny look at this,anybody's getting engaged or married. Look there's a little card there. There Come on, biscuit barrel. Go on. Get a biscuit. He loves it. Yeah he loves it. now. Oh just sit down. If I sit down I shall be asleep so who's chair's this? I don't know. You sit here. I don't know! Oh dear! Yeah my job Marje it's, it's it's er one of the cushiest jobs to be on camp really because this er where we are, we're the people who dish out the furniture for the quarters. Oh yeah? You know like your i if you move into an army quarter you can have it fully furnished if you want, I mean Oh? you don't, you don't have to buy furniture. He's out of luck, Gemma finished the biscuits the other night Poor sod. Well between Gemma and the dog you don't stand much chance do you? said he was gonna bring some biscuits up the street cos I still haven't got any. well I've gotta go down the street, I'll bring some biscuits back. I was just telling Marje Oh it's not it's just and I'll walk down and er I will bring him some biscuits back Oh he heard you, on tape. Don't bring the best chocolate ones, Well I didn't start getting any dinner cos Jenny's just on about getting fish and chips. Yeah we we're gonna get some fish and chips It's a Belgian drink. Oh yeah? Oh? When you pour it out it looks like ginger beer. Does it? Yeah. you don't, you don't even feel . twelve percent. Is it really? Yeah. As I say I, that's why, that's really why I was expecting you more towards twelve o'clock time. So I said well if they're gonna get . . Don't worry about it, we'll go down and get some later on. With the car perhaps to that Moor Road Yeah, we'll go up there. That's strong. Yeah well it yeah it is a bit. It is strong yeah. It's nice stuff. They said, they said it don't give you a hangover but don't believe it cos I had a you have a You s you serve it in a you know the big chunky glasses you can get? Well if you put them in the freezer Mm mm. up, pour it straight in and down. Mm. Do you still drink like that Brock? Like in Budgens few weeks . We'll get some of that when Eileen and Tony come. Went down yesterday and they're out of stock. It's expensive over here though innit? Er I get it for three quid, three something like. Is that the the big bottle or the small one? No, they're the small ones, small bottles yeah. It's expensive that. Oh yeah I know, We we'd pay about four pound for twenty four bottles. This beer called Yeah. It's, it's er Belgian. Oh. And it's it looks like ginger beer. When you pour it out you get a big head on it like this and it's, it's lovely stuff. It goes down like wine. It's, it's smooth, real smooth. Yeah. They have quite a few er foreign beers in er in Budgens these days cos the other week we saw some of that Brock Oh yeah that's erm that's then when he went down he said well he couldn't see any yesterday. No don't I don't I, I just get, I mean I, sometimes I have some like but it's so easy to get hold of it out there mum. I mean we've always got drink in the house and s and occasionally we'll have a drink at night but sometimes we just don't touch it for ages unless anyone comes round. It just sits there Well I mean your dad's got Anyway, I'll be gone and I shan't be long. Give us a kiss See you in a bit. Eh, where's my purse? Dad will you bring me some cough medicine? Cough medicine? I've got some. Have you? Oh that'll do then. I'll have some later. We've got some in the pantry. But I can bring you some if you want some. Come and taste mine. Oh no, no. When you've tasted mine you might not want, you might want me to bring you bring you back a different sort . Why, where do you get yours from? From the doctor. The vets. No he look at these in bits. Eh? Are you going down the street now? Yeah. Well you want some money don't you? This is, hang on this is a part of Italy. This is the time we went to the beach in Italy. I'll just look at these. And the sun setting. Let me show you ones with Tony and them on then. It's a nice big beach isn't it? Is this down in the ? Is it Tony? Er no No it's over towards Naples. Oh I see. This is Tony's street. You can't get two cars down the street. Can't you really? Could just get his car down it. And they had to park it in a a , an alley on the side. Oh yeah? It took me six turns to get it, get it reversed in. Because there's no room at all. Shall I show you a picture of Tony? These. these pictures are all round Tony's village. Yeah. See what his village is like. If dad starts looking through there he'll never get down the street . Well he he's gonna look at the rest when he comes back. See them when you come back. Right-oh Well he won't be long unless he sees anybody to talk to. He's like you for that. Er did you want anything else? No thanks dad. I can't think of anything. I can't think of anything except for the biscuits because I've run out of biscuits. I was Eileen. I know what you want. No no I'm no I'm I'll just get some cough medicine. Me money's around though, I don't know where it is. No I'll bring you some back. It's in your bag. Your bag's over there. Oh, alright. Any s something, chesty stuff, you know? Well that's what mine is for. Taste it first. I'll have some of yours then. No, go and taste it first. And then you'll know whether you like it. That's it, he's settled down now. Here you are. There. Lay down. That's it. Do you want another cup of tea Tony? There's probably No thanks. another one in the pot if you want one. No. It's on the Adriatic? Erm the other side. The other side is it? It's the western coast. Oh the west. It tastes like liquid salt! Ugh no wonder he said You what? It tastes like liquid salt. I know your dad said he didn't like it. That's why I didn't say anything before you tried it but your dad said he didn't like it. It acts as a mouthwash as well. Is there any particular kind you do like? Erm I don't care as long as it ain't that. I'll have any sort but that. Right. This is all rou this his village. You know he's surrounded by all these mountains. Ooh. Right? This is his back garden. That's the house, that's his back garden. Part of it. That's looking out of erm big garden. that's looking out the front window Oh yeah. over the rooftops next door. I mean you know, sometimes you you see a picture of a place when you've been there and it doesn't even resemble it. you know, as it is now it's very lovely. Over the road I mean. Yeah. They're practically touching actually if, if they, if they had a balcony and Tony had a balcony you could shake hands Oh. Yeah . That's opposite Tony's front window It looks nice. It looks nice where he a man's growing his tobacco look. Well Tobacco? growing his tobacco. Yeah. Ooh. And that one's same as the other one. That's the other one like that. We've got loads the same. I think you usually tend to get Yeah. when we, we come back from holiday That's your dad usually finds he's taken the same picture two or three times or more or less and Keep them in the same bits won't you? Yes same place but a different angle. This is this is all out of his back window the views out of upstairs, out of his kitchen window. All these. That's the photos I took of it, yeah at the palace. It's only like a little village isn't it? It's not a, not a big town. Oh it's, well it's three little villages together. See there's no difference really from the postcards. Erm there's erm Mm. Yeah, oh yeah. It's boiling there though. they're walking round in er woolly jumpers. Were they really? It's about twenty four degrees. I was sweltering, I was wearing a t-shirt and they were out you know with jumpers on and all sorts. They wear pyjamas at night and all sorts they do. there's Carbi Resorta and his village itself is called Viapechio something like that. I can't really say it. No. . That's their dog, Sally. Now this is where you can see this is their step's there Yeah. well you know you look down into that, onto that flat, the one ? Yeah. Well there's another one over this side. That bit there is the under part to Tony's house where the cousin lives. Oh. No, hang on what is she? Sister. She's she's Maria's sister, Maria's his ? No, it's Philomena's sister. Philomena's sister lives there. That's a big plant isn't it? Crikey it's as tall as you. Yeah it's elephant ears or something isn't it? Elephant ears. love that. Now these if you've got good eyes you might There's one of them. Oh yeah? Oh yeah. All these things on the wall you can't touch it. This is Tony with his camera. If you touch it it rots. Does it? Yeah. It hasn't been touched for hundreds of years. This is what I think is fascinating. This place here. Are these all lizards? There's lizards on all of them. Here, that one? Yeah. There's lizards on all of them. They get in your bed don't they? Ooh. Never got one in mine. Lizards When we went down the south of France we saw lizards like that on the walls. They moved ever so quick Yeah these do. Yeah. This is Tony's cellar. Oh. No it's, it's literally chopped out of rock. You can see all the steps are all Yeah. stone. It's all chopped it's like a cave. You go down and then you walk along here, right to the end right round, sort of round the bend there Yeah. and there's a well. He's got a well. And this is really deep ain't it Tone, this bit? That's about forty foot down This is about forty foot down and then it drops again Oh. into a well, where he gets his all, his fresh water from it. There's a li he puts a light on and it lights it up down the , a long way down. But it never ever alters. You can draw water out, you can put water in, and the level never ever changes. Wonderful water. It's really nice, ain't it Tone? Yeah. It's the only trouble though, they haven't got any mains water. Oh I see. Yeah. These are the same again. These are over the rooftops. And anything that does come from the you know the system? Mm. Erm it's bad. You know, it's really dirty water. Lovely little villages though. I mean you can see how they live, I mean look at the roads. Ever such a job to get our car up there. That's Philomena walking up the street. Oh. She's saying no don't-a take-a one of me. Switch-a the camera off! photos Yeah. . Oh these are the actual You walk down the road erm Marje it's really funny. And it's hey Mario Ciao. Ciao Mario cappuccino? And off they go. It's really funny. I'd love to live there. Yeah. It sounds really nice. Fantastic. Hughie come here. Oh that's next door's dog. Can't remember Come and see me. what it's called. But it ain't very nice. That's next door's dog. These are all grapevines she's got grapes lemons she's got a tree that's got lemon, orange and grapefruit on it ain't she Tone? Yeah. Growing in the garden? Yeah. All on one tree. On one tree? Lemon and a yeah on one tree. They were all grafted on and they're all growing on the same tree. Derek's got an apple tree with different kinds growing on it. Derek's got an apple tree with three different varieties on it. Marvellous innit? That's clever. That's that's sunset. Yeah I might have guessed that. Yeah. Out of his kitchen window. Looks like a castle dunnit? But it ain't. It does. And that's a shot see this part under here is Maria's under part where the cellar cellar goes down no and yeah, that's No. This is where the cellar is. You go round through Maria's gate then you go down the back and behind that little pole there Yeah. and down under here. That's where the cellar is isn't it? Oh. And these are the steps. Go up there, up to their stairs, that's her kitchen window and there's a lo big sun lounge there that goes right along there and right along here. Their bedroom doors used to open up onto this balcony. You could come out in the morning Oh. That's a nicer one of the garden. This is the that's the lemon, orange and grapefruit tree there. Oh yeah? The grapes are all along here see behind the washing? Yeah. And she's got kiwi fruits and peppers and all sorts of things growing in the garden. There's Eleanor. to grow them. Climate for it Do you remember Eleanor? She was a little dark-haired, curly girl. Beautiful curly dark hair she had. She was a little tiny dot. Aubergines. little aubergines, they're like this. You know, they're the little ones she says. All fresh, picks them when she wants them. They're all at er Monte Casino . There was a big battle there. The er the Germans bombed the monastery. Oh yeah? And er the Italian government rebuilt it. Oh yeah? But the view cos you, you're going up seven miles Mm. all, all the roads round, yeah?seven miles innit? It is. It's se seven miles of road up to the top. Yeah. And the view is lovely. the actual cellars they've got some of the old er writings that the, the monks and you're not allowed to take photographs. Yeah? And there's a book and it's oh about quarter of and it's got the bible written in fourteen nineties. And it, it's there, you can see it. You can see the writing on the pages. You know, it's fantastic. Yeah. No I can't say I remember her. The only one I remember is the son, the oldest boy I think. Oh dear, he wears me out Steven. Steven! Oh god. And she she's, she talks more than me, and sh her voice is like That's saying something. grapes, look at them. Yeah. Grapevines. You can see there's grapes on there. Derek's got a grapevine as well. Had forty pound of grapes off it last year. Did they? Yeah . These are all rou you see they're all these are all round that area. What about Hotel Rodeo Yeah. And that's all these are in Tony's hou I'm just trying to show them Tony's house first you see cos it's it's all these tiles that fascinate me. Some of these look more or less the same don't they? Yeah they are. We took them look at the Yeah we used seven films. What's that, chickens or ducks? Dunno. They keep everything round there. You look out one window you see a chicken, look out another window you see pigs. Another way you see goats. Yeah. They come round in the morning Marjie ain't had a goat yet . No. You, you'd love it. You'd be in your element you would. These tiles are all throughout. Amazing aren't they? Oh they're wonderful. All you do is, you get a mop and you just swish it over and you get a dry mop and just polish it up. No polish or anything. And they shi lovely aren't they Tone? Yeah. Great big tall ceilings. That's Tony. Don't know quite what he's doing, pulling a funny face as usual. And that's me trying to learn me Italian. She's telling me these little bits to write down. Oh this is me, me and Philomena. Me This is me and Philomena. I'm right into the Italian soaps while I were over there. The what? Oh Christ yes. The Italian soaps, couldn't understand a word, they were ever so good. They're Argen they're Argentinean which are dubbed into Italian. Oh. Well Oh dear me. it starts at quarter to eight, goes off at ten. It's What was you supposed to be doing there then ? They're watching t Oh I, I was messing about with Tony so I, I flashed me skirt, flashed me knees. Oh this is Alexandro's birthday. Alexandro he lives next door, right? And he's living in his garage mum. This is going down, round the back Ooh er. Why? He's got loads of money. Absolutely loaded isn't he Tone? Who Alexandro? Alexandro. Oh yeah. And he lives in this garage because out there you get earthquakes, and when you get earthquake damage to your house the government will fix it. They say yes you're allowed so much money to have your house fixed and they fix it. But they only come when they're ready. And he's, he took all his stuff out because he thought er they said they were coming. Then they never turned up so now he's got his cooker and his sink, goodness knows what in his, in his garage. Ooh. And that's their next door neighbour? Yeah. Yeah. Ever so nice. Can't speak any English though, it's ever so funny. You just get in, have your tea, and Alexandro'll come round, come for a beer. There's Tony look. He ain't got no teeth now look. Yeah. You can't just have one. No, no, no . No, I didn't recognize him. Oh, you know when you've just had your tea, you like to sit down? I never recognized him. He ain't got no teeth. Yeah. No, He's been ever so ill mum. Really ill. Yeah you said he had. He's lucky he never died. I tell you. Are they war graves Tony? Yeah, yeah. Yeah in Monte Casino it's erm there's the English, Polish erm ooh and French cemeteries. There isn't a German one. No. No. No. Now what's funny about this place is they're all Italians that are in there but there's loads of them that live in this particular area, that lived in Bedford for a long time. So they all speak English. in Bedford I know. So there is Well all these lived in Bedford for a while. She speaks with a Bedford accent. Ooh er. Ever so funny. Jean, was her name? Zina Zita? What was her name? Zelda, Zina? Veena. Veena? Yeah. Nice girl she was. No I remember Derek saying how many Italians there were living in Bedford. This is the Hotel Rodeo at Garoteo where we stayed, where we Rosetto where we stayed on our way down towards Tony's. Oh. Oh mum it was terrible! No, the place was okay but we had lizards outside our door, loads of them. I it were ca , it was, it was raining so much you see? There's more of S Sally hiding behind the curtain. Monte Casino where we went straight into the pub and Tony says three beer and hallo he said, alright mate? yeah really. He said do you work? He says now and again. If he doesn't wanna go to work he doesn't. No. That's good They keep the nets down to keep the flies out. Yeah. That was a hell of a trip, down through Italy. Another one of Sally behind the curtain. Me and Philomena doing the potatoes. It rained for three days. Oh gawd! I like those shiny floors. Lovely ain't they? Bit easier than hoovering carpets isn't it? This is Guido. Now he's learning to speak English. He's a Who's he? He's a man who lives Is he a neighbour? down the road. You'll see his family in a minute, hang on Tony's friend. He's Tony's friend. Yeah we got in to er Roseo and . And er I heard this clanging. And I thought . You know, we were going for about ten minute . So I looked out the window and I see and they've all got these big bells round their neck. Yeah? string like, you know? Oh. He's my friend as well now . Some of these photos are terrible. That's his family. That's his mum and his grandma and granddad and his dad and his brother and his brother's wife. Mm. I've got some nice photos. I sent them one, they're ever so pleased. They were all dressed up. You know not, not just a cowboy belt. They've all got flowers in the hair and all sorts. Yeah? That's me and Maria doing the potatoes. Yeah. That's Yeah that's my mate, Yeah. Me and me and erm sorry not Maria, there's Maria. That's me and Philomena. Philomen Phil, yeah. Philomen. She used to come in, she'd say Antonio! Then Tony'd say bella ! He used to talk to her in English with an Italian accent. It used to crack me up. And she, and she used to You doing potatoes by the bucketful? Well there was a lot of us for dinner. They don't half eat though! Good grief. I mean, you got dinnertimes it was erm typical pasta with her home-made, home-made spaghetti sauce and parmesan cheese, great big plateful and loads of meat on the side. And then at night egg and chips, cos she knows Tony likes chips or chops and ooh. Said didn't I, I'm gonna put loads of weight on? Ha! Ate loads. That's a that's a fresh fig off a tree. You can walk the roads and pick them. Ooh I've been told they're very nice. I've never tasted one but they say they're very nice. Ooh. They taste so different to the figs we get. Yeah. They're really nice. Oh this is the night we arrived. Things like that Like the cheese. This is the night we arrived, we were looking at photos look. Oh yeah. She brought this hunk of erm what is it How far is it? parmesan isn't it? Parmesan yeah. Oh a hunk like this. How many miles actually is it Tony? Where, down there? From France to Italy. How many did we do? Oh dunno. Or Germany to Two thousand something? I did two thousand four hundred kilometres. It was ooh it was, do you know, it's one of the best trips I've ever made. Yeah it's I've never been anywhere like that, to drive through. The, the travelling you know? We did fifty what was it? Fifty three tunnels? Ooh, look at me there look. I think I'd had a few, few home-made wines. Look at this home-made wine. Look what they've got here, the bottles Think it was fi Eileen, how many tunnels was it ? Fifty odd wasn't it? Er tunnel no it was se fif Seven Fifty something going down, seventy something coming back I think. That's right. Oh you, cos they just dig through the mountains you see, so you don't have to The, the longest the longest tunnel is er nineteen kilometres. Ooh, some tunnel that is. Yeah, what was it called though? It was Gotard S S It was Gotard weren't it. No. No, the other one's bigger innit? No,Gotard Gotard Yeah. You've certainly got a lot of photos anyway. Oh we took them all the while see. See they're the only teeth Tony's got left. Them ones there, that's all he's got left. He ain't got no more. And do you know what? Because he ain't got no teeth mum, you know they Well I, I can see it's him when they're Yeah. a bit closer up but You know when you ain't got your teeth in, how your face tends to s sag a bit? Yeah. Well you see, Tony's got them here but he ain't got them there so he's, when he sits there and he's relaxed his face goes sad . He got sad old Tone though. Every time I write a letter to him now I say keep smiling, turn them corners up cos they all go on at him. Oh there's them cows. Yeah. Oh there's Sally playing peep-o again. There were loads of them. That's one of the houses in the village look. What does he do? He's Tony? Well he works in a Jack of all trades. Oh. He does a bit of everything. He works in this company where they're something to do with material isn't it? He's a labourer. He's a labourer, but then he goes out sweeping chimneys. Oh. These are the ones I like. That's a nice looking house isn't it? Mm. Bit unusual. Yeah there's loads of nice little houses round there's another one round here with pictures on the walls somewhere. I see cow's got the right of way. It's the streets I like. Look at the streets. Oh dear . See this is Tony's street. Ha Tony's street! Lane. See look at Tony's. We had ever such a job to get our car up there. got a better That's the same one as this one on here ? And this one. That's Tony's street. Is that Luxembourg? Look at that one. Ooh er, crikey. That's Yeah, oh he's . No lie down. That's it,lie down. Here look at this house mum. Good boy. Look at this house. Luxembourg there. Oh that's nice isn't it? Yeah. Is that in the same village? Yeah. You can go the coach route can't you? We wondered round the streets just taking photos. You can go the coach route can't you? Yeah well we was, we was gonna go down the west coast go and see Rome and then down from there. Yeah. But the weather was terrible. I was driving through what, eighteen inches of water. Yeah when you go through Switzerland. Yeah. It seems to be following you. Yeah well Switzerland weren't too bad cos the road surfaces are pretty good. Yeah. But in Italy there's no drainage. Ooh. but on, on a motorway brand new motorway, no lines Yeah. no white lines, nothing. No? about eighteen inches of water. Right? Cor! And the cars are just straight on. You know, Went round taking photos of old and the new. See this is the new stuff that's going up. Yeah. And the old stuff is much more interesting, don't like the new stuff. Yeah. This is a a rest home for the nuns. And they go there when they retire. See that's that's sort of there. That was built sort of there. That's the old stuff. Yeah. And this is the new. There's timesharing and Different And this one It was bloody we well I had to stop because I couldn't see my way at all. This one's another one. That's in the next village. It's a nice street innit? It is nice. Yeah. And that's, that's the fish in the palace park. And that's Switzerland, coming out of Switzerland. And the other one is what's on the front ? That's Monte Casino Very nice. And that was Monte casino on that one. That's a nice box for photographs innit? Oh this one ain't much good actually. This one ain't much good. It's a nuisance. The other one's absolutely chock-a-block. I'm keeping them together in their little bits because I've got them all sorted where they belong, so Have you seen these? No. This is all, they're all the little houses and and streets and and that, that one. Right, what's the next lot? Alright, sit down you. Sit down Joey. Good boy. Right now did you see the one with the sea on? Oh no. Well that's the day we went to the sea. When weirdo bought us a coffee. Which sea's that? It's the Mediterranean innit? I don't know, it's on the left hand side. Or is it the North Sea? Naples side. Oh. I think it's the Mediterranean. Did you see Naples? No we never went No. Even the locals won't go and park their car in Right, Philomena's two brothers, both policemen in Naples They're policemen. I kn know the traffic's er terrible. and they don't even in, in the city. Well they, they'll pinch them. Oh is it that bad? Yeah it is, it's sad. Oh it's terrible! Yeah. Yeah. The sea looks nice though. The cars get ripped off, if they park they'll take the car. Will they? Yeah. Yeah. I, I waited until I got back into Switzerland before I said I've been to Italy and I haven't got a scratch on the car. Oh it's lovely but see now this is, when was this? Oct early October? Early October and it were end of season. Mm. Wouldn't believe it would you? No. And they just shut up and go. Yeah. Yeah cos, cos E everywhere you go they're using the horn. Yeah. Now it's against the law to that in Germany. Yeah. So I couldn't really get into the habit. No. You know? No that's true, yeah. I'm gonna sneeze in a minute. I can feel it coming. How far is the village from the sea? Twenty five K's. I think if you know where you're going it's nearer than we went. We do weren't too sure were we? Was that was that hot air balloon following you by any chance ? It, it just came over, yeah it, it came up over the It looks nice dunnit, that? We were just standing there looking over the the the That's er the parapet Yeah. and I turned round there. and this balloon came up from behind This is all palace. In the gardens and inside the palace. The Cacerta Yeah that's in that first photo innit? Yeah. And I thought well I'll get that balloon and perhaps Yeah. Yeah. That's the gardens where all the fish, there's fish in all these steps. Oh. You'll see some of the fish. Where's that? This is Cacerta Cacerta I heard the name but Oh it's, it's there on the side of the box. Sorry? Yeah I've shown them that, yeah. But there's some more as well in there. You need a, a you need to see it though really. You can't get it it's such a sort of panoramic sort of view, you know? All this is all in erm alabaster. Ooh it's lovely. Mm. Fishes. There's loads of them. Yeah, every step in like in that house Every step has got fish in. is water. And they've all got fish. In the steps? Well there's steps. You go up on a step and then you've got another pond. Yeah. Yeah. And it overflows coming down into another pond There's a massive garden. Oh I see. and they've all got fish in. What, koi carp and all that are they Tony? All sorts. Yeah. There's all sorts. Yeah. I think they're goldfish actually. There's some goldfish but These look like goldfish. carp and, it's got everything in there. I don't think there's any koi carp. Look at it, there's millions on that one. Yeah that's lovely innit? Cle and yet you look at the water. It don't look very clear when you look at it, but the sun and that it was it weren't half hot that day. Well the camera can probably see more than you do. There's statues everywhere. I was just testing the camera so I, I, I ordered a camera and expected it to be with us the week before we went. We were gonna leave on the Saturday morning, it arrived the Friday night. Did it really? Yeah. Oh, it didn't give you much chance then to get used to it did it? I mean you know No. I just, I just got seven films and I said well if they Friday if I don't, well Well they worked good didn't they? There's some that are a bit, you know No, they're, they're alright. They're nice. They're good photos they are. This reminds me of when we went round Versailles. That's all painted ceilings and Yeah. This is like in a big glass case and it's other parts , there's like a little bit there looks like the nativity and then the rest is all parts of Naples in olden times. It shows you the Ooh. the . And you walk round this glass case, it's all different But the curtains, it says please don't touch, if you touch them they'd fall to bits, they're that old. Yeah. Oh yeah, Tony was saying. They're hundreds of years old aren't they? Yeah. And look this, this room, you've got the it was all like this, all gold filigree, it was all over. Yeah. The ceilings, all down the walls furniture. Ooh it was It was it was the er the throne room wasn't it? Throne room, yeah. It was wonderful. Mm. And that's Er this sort of thing, as I say i it reminds me very much of Versailles when we went round there. Yeah. That's all painted ceilings and How far's Tony actually from Naples? It's about sixty kilometres. Sixty is it? Yeah. But, cos you see Tony, he, he likes to take people out Mm? and h he's been to places his memory's terrible. Is it really? Yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. He He has been ever so poorly Clive. He, he you see what I, yeah cos last time you when come over he was supposed to have been ill weren't he? Oh yeah. Yeah oh he's er what happened to him, right he used to like a drink when he were here. He went out there and you see and, and they drink wine instead of tea. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And he was going round and they made such a fuss of him cos he was Philomena's husband Is that a waterfall at the back there? Yeah. Yeah. It comes all the way down. Did you see that first one, where they're? Yeah? You'll see it quite a way up. You'll see it in a minute when you get back to the end again. You see it's not, not alcoholic the wine. No. And when it's pressed out of the grapes, the juice comes out, they allow it to stand for five days and then they put it into bottles. Oh, I see. There's no alcohol in it. Isn't there? No sugar, nothing added. No. No it's just pure grape juice. Oh god, really kicks you. Yeah. It kicks. Does it Yeah. Well, see when you're drinking that all day long Yeah yeah. It rotted his liver. Yeah, yeah. And that's Oh. So w without alcohol there wouldn't be no dehydration either would there? Not in No No, no. No I should think it's it's very potent. Even the, the locals add water to it. Do they really? You know they get a small glass like a whisky glass? Mm. Half of the wine and they top it up with water. Oh. And, and th this erm it's like the coffee. Italian coffee in little cups. more than four a day if you're a working man. If you don't work, one a day. Yeah? Because it, it it would rot your stomach. Ooh dear. stuff Ooh ooh. I didn't think it were that strong like, you know? I thought they drunk that all day, I brought some back with us. Yeah. And I've still got half a pack. Have you really? Yeah. It was only two hundred and fifty grams. Yeah we've got half. Oh yeah. It is strong. Really strong. These statues are everywhere aren't they? See there it is. Look it comes Yeah. right down. All the way down. There's Tony, me and Maria. Who's Maria? Maria's erm Philomen's sister. Oh. That's across the gardens of the palace you know? Yeah. All the mountains all round it. That's what I like about it, all the mountains all over the place, you know? Yeah. Back to the beginning again. Yes they're lovely. And the weather was gorgeous. Well we did have some rain but Well for that time of the year it was remarkable really. Er . Oh that's at Rocetta . You can see Rocetta from Tony's garden. It's a little, it's a place. It's, it's a hill, a big and this is where Hannibal started his trek Oh. with the elephants, across the alps. Rocetta was his first campsite. Oh. You see? That's why it's famous. Did you hear that Clive? Sorry? Rocetta the ones that mum's looking at now Yes? What I'll do, I'll pass you the box and then you can take them out a bit at a time cos I've sorted them. Ain't they? Oh. your dad'll wanna look through them I expect when he gets back. That's where Hannibal parked his ele had his first campsite. Oh Oh. That's a true story then, Hannibal? Oh yeah. I didn't er realize that actually, yeah. Well where, where Tony lives there's that village is over three thousand years old. There's tunnels under the ground. Yeah. tunnels Well you know the what was it, Romulus and Remus? Yeah. With the wolf. What's that then, hidden in the trees? Mm? Erm Well apparently there's a, a golden wolf That's the cemetery. Oh. buried in one of the caves. I'm not too certain which cemetery but it's And nobody's ever found it. Oh. it's an important one. But it's, apparently it's supposed to be there. It's it's supposed to be there. But every day they're finding something new. Are they? Yeah. hills all round innit? Are there still Oh yeah they're still excavating it, yes. archaeologists are still there doing it all you know? Yeah. Oh aye yeah. Oh. Well the things they find, you know I'll bet it is. Oh as I say I've seen the film. I, I liked the film of Hannibal, with Oliver Reed. Now that's quite good. Yeah. Was it I've never seen the film. It's very good, the film is. But I mean round there it's absolutely steeped in history. I couldn't believe it. Mm. I mean er when they told the tales of the of the seven winds and the was it seven winds? Yeah. The seven winds and Romu Romulus and Remus and the, the, the wolf it all happened round there. And they reckon the golden wolf is still down But there somewhere. Rome is supposed to be built on seven hills isn't it or something? It is. Yeah, seven hills. Yeah we saw the seven hills as we drove past Rome because you Yeah can see it. Just like this can't you? Yeah. Amazing place. We didn't go into Rome, we went round it. It spreads about twenty five mile for the time of the year it's gorgeous isn't it? Yeah look at the size of me though mum. I ain't half a fatso. And that's the main town the city. Yeah. Ooh I put loads of weight on out there. And then you've got all the outskirts around that, you know? Cos you're talking about thirty, forty mile. I'm supposed to be trying to watch me weight now. Yeah? Yeah. It's massive. I've er, I've lost about a stone in a couple of months or so, that's all, but it's er better than gaining I suppose. Back to where I started I think. Unless you've got two pictures of that same street, no No, you're back to where you started. This is Rocetta Clive. Mm. Funny little place. Ah. Right Rocetta Now where's this? Oh this is the palace this is the, the Monte Casino This is where It's the abbey The abbey at Monte Casino Do you remember Oh I've heard about the abbey yeah. the war film. You know where it all got bombed Yeah. and what they took all the treasures down into the cellars so they were saved and they rebuilt it. In the same style as it was years ago, using some of their old bricks and everything that they could but it's been Yeah. rebuilt in the same style and all the treasures are still there. Yeah it's amazing, all these I've seen the film of this where they're trying to g and all around from outside you can see the graves the graveyard. Yeah. There's the German graveyard, the Italian the, the erm British and Canadian No, the German one's not there. The German one is not round Monte Casino I thought it was. It's further out. W way out. And it's only a small one. Oh I thought it was. I want a tissue. handbag. Can you pass me my handbag, Marje please. Oh dear me. Derek said he might come up tonight. Yeah we saw Jenny down town yesterday, she said they were coming up tonight. Ooh, can't stand this. How, how high up were you there Tone? Could you also for your passports just note the following information. Country of issue, whether it's a five or ten year passport expiry date and your passport numbers. Again we can, we use that information when we go through various customs and border points. If if we can give the lists in it just makes it easier. So if I could ask you just to complete that. forms? Yes Er there's some more over here, they're on their way round. Right, has everybody got one now? Are there any spare green forms anywhere? Here. Thank you. Can you, if you can let, simply let me have those in at the end of the session or if you can give them to Eleanor at the end of the session. Right. Okay wh what er I'll give you time to fill that in at the end. Erm what we're gonna do for the second part of the morning is to look, if you like at the tourism application for the determinants of demand. I'm gonna start by going back to that graph we looked at first thing this morning which is trying to explain what had been happening to the pattern of tourism, both visitors to this country and visitors moving away from this country in the period nineteen seventy eight to nineteen eighty two. And if you wanna look at this graph the period we're talking about is indicated with these dotted lines and you can see the green line here representing U K residents holidaying abroad. You've got a very sharp increase and then after nineteen eighty two it stabilizes a little bit. Er it moves up again in eighty five to eighty six and the general trend you can see is still upwards though it's certainly not repeating the growth in this period. At the same time, you can see the domestic holidays the pattern's less clear, but certainly there doesn't appear to have been any growth. Now what I want to do is look at what was happening at that time and then try and explain using the determinants of demand what the patterns actually were. And so if we look at what happened generally between nineteen seventy eight and nineteen eighty two the general picture is that the number of total holidays taken actually fell by three percent. And the number of U K holidays taken, domestic holidays in this country, that figure fell by seventeen percent and yet we can see here that holidays actually taken abroad by U K residents rose a staggering fifty seven percent over the four year period. So clearly in this period the U K holidaymaker moved from being someone who primarily took their holidays in the U K very definitely into someone who was now taking their holidays abroad. Now furthermore, if we look at what was happening to the population itself, remember that under the economic basis of looking at determinants of demand, we saw that income was a crucial factor. And so if we look at what was happening to income at that time, we find that the disposable income, meaning the amount of money we have to spend on other things after we've bought essentials, that figure rose by only one and a half percent throughout this period. However, holiday expenditure rose by twenty four percent and spending on overseas trips rose by fifty percent. So quite clearly we were experiencing a major change in tourism patterns in this country. Now the other thing we should remember is that between nineteen seventy eight and nineteen eighty two, certainly in the early nineteen eighties, eighty, eighty one, we were in the midst of a recession and so that should tell us that really people should have less money to spend on holidays. At the same time, we know that unemployment in this period was rising rapidly. And so if people had less money in their pockets and they were losing their jobs, what factors can explain why more and more people were actually going on holiday abroad? It doesn't, if you like, make sense and the key year, as I say, is nineteen seventy eight because that was the first time that spending on overseas holidays exceeded the spending on U K holidays. So from nineteen seventy seven, seventy eight the U K holidaymaker now became an overseas holidaymaker in the main. And we can conclude that some form of revolution had taken place in overseas holiday participation despite the high unemployment and the recession. What we're gonna try and answer now is the reasons why this happened. Because on the basis of the economic models and the way which we look at determinants of demand in economics, this shouldn't have happened, we should have had the reverse, we should have had fewer holidays being taken and certainly fewer overseas holidays. Can anybody s like to suggest what reasons could possibly explain why so many overseas holidays were being taken? Or where the money was coming from to actually pay for these holidays. Is it to do with the package industry revolution? Right. Er certainly within package holiday companies itself, competition was intense during this period and price being the major factor in determinants of demand, all the tour operators try to keep price down to a minimum and over this period you would find the average price for a package holiday would barely have changed one year to the next. In fact if you look at the average price of a package holiday since nineteen seventy eight, the increase in prices has been absolutely marginal. Certainly well below the rate of inflation. An illustration if you like of how competitive the package holiday industry became. So in fact prices were good. Where would people have got the money from? Any ideas? Okay people could well have been using savings. Redundancy. Right good. It's thought that a lot of the spending money for these would have come from redundancy payments when people lost their jobs. And that might seem a rather odd way to actually spend some of your redundancy money, but perhaps this leads us on to another area influencing the demand, and that's to do with, if you like, psychology. Er making yourself feel good even if it's only for a short time. If you can imagine someone losing their job, the depression that actually causes, perhaps both within them and with their family, the idea of being able to take them away for a holiday to forget about things might be a good thing at the end of the day. The other thing is that of course, going back to the competition with price, these holidays weren't that expensive. We're not talking about vast sums of money necessarily here. Are there any other factors which can explain the taking of these holidays? The rising cost of holidays in the U K. Er okay, it could be the rising cost of holidays in the U K. Possibly not so much the cost, what other factors in the list of, of determinants could come into play now? Weather. Right, climate is always a major consideration. Er in nineteen seventy six for example, we had the long hot summer as people call it. I think we had something like eight and a half months without rain and there's the feeling, quite often, that when we get a good summer in this country, people assume that the next summer will be just as good. And so you can imagine all the people in nineteen seventy six thinking well you know, there's definitely been a climatic change, we're gonna holiday in the U K in nineteen seventy seven. Nineteen seventy seven's summer was a total washout and that would tend to push people perhaps more towards guaranteed sunshine in the Mediterranean. So climate is a key factor. Anything else? Okay well let's look at some of the main possible reasons for this in more detail. The reasons I'm gonna give you were supplied by a guy called Tony . Tony is actually a consultant. He used to be the marketing director of Butlins and obviously these trends were important to him when he was at Butlins because Butlins was actually losing the market. So the reasons why. The first thing we can say is definitely the strength of the pound. The pound sterling was very strong against the dollar and relatively strong against currencies like the deutschmark. Now bearing in mind what we were saying about exchange rates before the break, if the pound was strong that obviously implied that people wanted to buy sterling, but what goods did they want to buy off us? What major good were we producing or did we start producing around nineteen seventy seven? Which brought a lot of money into the country. One major good. Output. Okay it begins with O oil. Okay? Very good. North Sea oil. North Sea oil came on board and suddenly we had a product which people wanted to buy. In order to buy the oil off us, they had to pay sterling and so hence the demand for sterling goes up and suddenly we were viewed as a very rich economy. Ironically the price of sterling went up so high that it made it very difficult for us to sell our other manufactured goods and many people are now of the belief that because of the North Sea oil price rises, this had an adverse affect on our economy, making it more difficult for us to sell manufacturing goods because the pound was very strong against other currencies. So the strength of the pound caused through North Sea oil was a major factor. It meant it, it was very cheap for us to go to places like Florida for our holidays. Secondly, there was relatively low inflation abroad, certainly in the main holiday destinations in Europe. Prices were not going up too fast and again this made it economical for us to visit. There was also a decline in real air transport cost. And by this we mean in terms of things like the cost of fuel, although it did go up again in nineteen seventy nine, but also with respect to new services being offered. Er Laker with his Skytrain, the people's express, we had a lot of new airline operations starting up which offered cheap seats so that the relative cost of flying was coming down. And the net result of all of these things together is that it narrowed the cost value differentials between U K and overseas holidays. Overseas holidays now started to look cheaper than actually going abroad. Sorry, than actually holidaying in Britain. Right, the second factor which Tony outlined was what was happening in the population and again we've already talked about this. Basically there's a decline in the number of children during this period, people under the age of sixteen, by around about eleven percent. At the same time, there was a growth in the age group between sixteen and twenty four of about seven percent. And finally, again we've already talked about the elderly er age groups, there was a growth in the sixty plus age group of about five per cent. Sir is that children ? Yeah. Yeah sixteen, under sixteen, then sixteen to twenty four, and then sixty plus. Now in this particular period if you were looking at these figures just like this, what would be your automatic reaction in terms of the type of holidays we ought to be providing? What sort of holidays should we now start providing during this period? Which age group? Right, sixteen to twenty four. So can you think of any er brochures or any companies which were around at that time to take advantage? Probably the most famous one Right, Club Eighteen to Thirty. Okay so Club Eighteen to Thirty was doing good business around this period because of this situation. Now what we have to do however is look at it in more in more detail than just simply the age of people. We're also gonna look at where they live, remember what they're income is etcetera and the important thing is because of these increases here and because of the recession in general, it dictated to us that there were gonna be more one and two person households. Households without children in other words. And this implies greater mobility both physically and financially. If you picture a, for example, a typical couple perhaps living in London, erm the price of property is such that you maybe start with an apartment. If you want to have children you've gotta offset that against, for example, having a car or a new stereo, things which affect your lifestyle. So the pattern would have been perhaps towards marrying later, or certainly having children later and then perhaps moving out of London. So this in a sense tends to reinforce the idea of these households with just one and two people living in them. As the recession's gone on through the eighties and enters the nineties, we can see that the number of single households, households with just one person, is increasing rapidly. It's a major market and the tourism industry has really been very slow to wake up to this factor. Because if you look in any package holiday brochure, you'll still see that, in order to get a room, you need two people. If you, if any of you, you probably haven't, seen any brochures specifically geared towards single people. Very, very few. And yet that's a major growing part of the market. A third area will be social factors and here you've already mentioned the weather. Climate obviously is a major determinant of demand, attracting people to if you like the guaranteed sunshine. Ironically, now we're probably moving into a new era where sunshine is actually seen as something harmful giving things like skin cancer, er certainly in the Australia market it's the case at the moment. And so ironically, although climate will be a factor in er this century and into the next century, it could be well to escape the sun. The direct reverse if you like of this period here. The second factor is of is the whole question of holiday entitlements. The number of weeks paid holiday that a worker will get is increasing rapidly so as today we have the norm of twenty days plus public bank holidays, giving more time if you like to engage in a package holiday abroad. Another social factor is the whole thing about foreign holidays being seen as somehow superior. Remember we keep talking about tourism as being fashionable, it's fashionable to say you've been to certain destinations. Saying you've been to those destinations in the U K doesn't actually hold the same appeal or esteem. So the foreign holidays, because you're guaranteed sunshine, cheap alcohol, everything else, somehow being seen as better than the traditional British holiday. At this time remember the traditional British holiday was seen as staying in a boarding house with a landlady. You had to be in at a certain time you know, you had very standard cuisine, it was, it had become if you like, ridiculed in jokes and things of this nature. And yeah another one connected to this whole lifestyle, aspirational argument the image the brochures give us of a couple si sitting on a terrace with, you know, you can almost hear the music in the background, the sun setting over the sea. If you like, giving us the Hollywood image that we can live that lifestyle for two weeks. Very difficult to imagine British resorts somehow trying to capture that. I mean you simply can't, you can't guarantee the sunsets for one thing. A fourth factor, education. Er around this period we have the widespread use of things like colour television which has now started to appear in everybody's homes and the beginnings of various holiday programmes. So that again, once a week you have a visual image of what different resorts look like, but this time in colour. And again we talked last week about the use of colour in photographs in brochures and things, if you like, to reinforce the sunshine element when you're sat in the snow in the winter watching Wish You Were Here or one of the holiday programmes. Video is probably also an important factor. A lot of travel companies starting to introduce video. Very commonplace today go in to Thomas Cook's there'll be a video running continually with one destination or another or an activity holiday etcetera. And a fourth factor, third factor rather, school trips. Now again I mentioned this last week, the idea of introducing schoolchildren at a very young age to different countries and different cultures so that in fact when they come to go on holiday on their own or with a partner it holds no fear for them unlike, if you like, senior citizens might do. And it's plain that this in fact is one of the major reasons explaining why more and more people are actually travelling overseas now. The final thing is to do with marketing and here we've got, in particular, the convenience of the ITs, remember the inclusive tours. You go to a travel agent, you pay a cheque and that will cover your accommodation, your meals, your transport, your insurance, it can even cover your entertainment. Very very easy to purchase. If you contrast that with holidaying in Britain, even today relatively few people will be a buy a package holiday in Britain because somehow we think we can do it better ourselves. We don't need to buy a package, we can simply lift up the telephone, book our own accommodation, use our own car. And obviously that you can do, but it takes time, it's quicker just to walk into a travel agent and pick up a cheap bargain. Ease of purchase. Again the fact that you buy a single package very often when you go overseas. The tour operators recognizing that people had different demands at this period, were developing specialist markets. Club Eighteen Thirty, activity based holidays, holidays to exotic destinations. And with, these destinations, you can u use strong promotion. If you go past any travel agent's window during the winter, look at what they've got on display. Invariably it will have palm trees and sunshine. It has maximum impact when we're trudging through the snow and the rain. And the final thing, a factor we've already mentioned, price competition. Now these are the reasons that, why Tony claims the revolution would have taken place around this period. And these are all re really valid but what I want to do now is start looking more into how a visitor actually thinks. What influences them inside their heads to actually go for a certain destination. And how do we actually use this in marketing. Now we started the morning by looking at the determinants of demand. And what I want to do now is to look at two elements. I'm gonna split the determinants into two. On the one hand I'm gonna say you've got the enabling factors, these are things which enable you to actually participate in taking a holiday overseas. And then here we've got the motivating factors. If you like the psychological influences. So we might in fact simplify this by saying these are the enabling factors if you like, to leave home these are the motivating factors pulling us to a certain destination. And,go through the enabling factors first, they're very very straightforward, it's the motivating factors which are more complex. So what are the things which enable you to leave home? Firstly if you've got a supply of holiday products on offer. If you've got travel agents round every street corner then it's very easy simply to walk into them and buy a package on the spot. You don't need, for example, months of preparation and planning in terms of perhaps where you're gonna go. This is particularly true in recent years, because more and more people nowadays book holidays at the last minute. Very often it's to try and take advantage of price deals, but also it's because we now know there perhaps isn't the urgency to buy a holiday in February because we know there'll be plenty around still in June or July. Increasingly as well many people are making their own holiday arrangements. Er some of you I suspect are already into things like bucketshop flights. How many how many people are aware of bucketshop flights? Tried it? Well not necessarily tried it but you're aware that they exist. Yes, well it's a few people. These are very very cheap discounted tickets er usually using what we might call the dodgier carriers of the world, not necessarily those which have got a bad safety records or crash records, but where the cuisine isn't quite as good on board, or you don't get an inflight movie. Erm just to digress, you've got well known airlines er such as Tarob of Rumania where you can get cheap flights with them virtually anywhere except ironically to Rumania erm you've got other airlines erm such as erm er Geruda of Indonesia er Imam of Bangladesh, there's a whole sequence of them. And if you wanna go somewhere in south east Asia you can pick up flights which are very very cheap. Less than half the price of, for example, a standard British Air Apex ticket. So the supply available is very important. Likewise when we go to a country, we need somewhere to stay and over the last decade there have been more and more hotels built in virtually every place in the world. Secondly, you need disposable income, obviously. A third factor concerns, if you like, the demographic situation, if you've got children erm if you've got elderly relatives to look after, that will obviously determine whether you're enabled to travel and perhaps where to. You've also got geographical factors the journey time. Again last week we talked about the feasibility of going to Australia for a week and the impact it would have on you after things like jetlag. You've got things like socio-cultural factors in terms of paid holidays. How many paid holidays do you get a year and when are you likely to be able to take them. For example, many people have four weeks' holiday a year, but not many people can take that four weeks all in one go, there are usually restrictions that you can only take maybe a maximum of two weeks. Hence the socio-cultural factors are important erm and another important one at the end of the day is your own personal mobility. Your own health and fitness. Now this can become an increasingly important factor because of all the activity holidays around today. For example if you go for a Peter Stuyvesant activity holiday, you have to have a medical first. Erm unless you've got a doctor's note saying that you've passed the medical, they won't allow you to actually go on the activity holiday. Now that's a drawback in many respects, but it's also if you er think about it, a very good selling point. It makes it sound really challenging and adventurous before you've even bought the package, the mere fact that you have to go through that beforehand. Motivating factors are more complex and the sort of things we'll be talking about here something we call income elasticity. And in fact we'll come back to look at this and Bob will also be looking at er with you environmental analysis as well. Erm the whole question here is if you have more money in a sense, what do you spend it on? In general we find that, for a very small increase in, for example, wages, we tend to spend a lot more, proportionately, on holidays. It's almost as if we think subconsciously well we've got that little bit extra, let's go for it. Even though in effect you're using more of your income proportionately than you would have been doing before. The other thing about holidays and elasticity is the question of what happens when the price of a holiday goes up. Now we looked at the graphs and that should dictate in general that demand will go down. But it doesn't seem to work like that. In general even if the price of a holiday goes up extortionately, the number of people going overseas tends to stay about the same. W we haven't noticed, if you like, a very big change in it. If you at the statistics over the last three to four years, you'll find the number of U K people travelling abroad has always stayed round about the thirty million mark, despite what's happened to the prices. A second factor motivating people again it's the demographic situation, the fact that if you haven't got children, you're free to do what you want. You don't have any, if you like, responsibilities as such. Geographical factors can be a motivating factor, er we've talked about the sun and the influence of the sun. You can also have geographical factors again, as we said last week, to do with things like scenery and obviously geographical factors are very important if we consider skiing er with the classification of the ski slopes between difficult and suit beginners. Or the pistes as we call them. Socio-cultural factors these relate to things like our beliefs and notions and our aspirations. But probably the key one here is the belief that somehow if we go on holiday, we're gonna come back totally refreshed. Again we talked about this last week, fifty weeks of the year you toil and you look forward to your holiday months in advance, you then take your holiday and somehow it recharges your batteries so that you're ready to do battle again for the next fifty weeks. It's claimed by many people that we live in a cycle where, if you like, we struggle to get through fifty weeks of the year to live for holidays recharge the batteries, then you go into it again. Incidentally on this one you've got the lifestyle aspirations. If you think of what you do on a holiday, it's a totally different lifestyle to when you're normally working and obviously people desire to have that sort of experience more and more, and you've got the rise of things like short breaks. So again the trend today is towards people having at least one overseas trip a year and possibly two or three short break weekends as well. Er increasingly, we're also looking at a new market which has a holiday in the summer overseas and in winter goes skiing. Again trying to get more of this lifestyle into their day to day existence. Comparative prices are gonna be a motivating factor. Competition, the price of alternatives etcetera and then you only have to look in any travel agent's window to see that that's an important factor today. Windows covered in prices, lots of talk about discounts, vouchers, all sorts of things to try and get you to part with your money. Personal mobility. Here by the main we're talking about the motor car. The advent of the private car has made a greater percentage of the population mobile, we can reach many different areas today by private car. And then we've got some factors which I wasn't sure where to put, government regulations erm again you'll come on to this later in the year deregulation of the airlines allowing free competition between airlines and low prices. Issuing of passports, currency exchange controls these can be both enabling and motivating factors. And finally, the big one, the impact of the mass media. Everything from newspapers to television movies the lot. And so while these things here enable us to leave home, if you like, these things are buzzing round in our head and in marketing these are things we have to look at in order to, we have to be able to make product and then try and assess how will the tourist or potential tourist respond to this. What will they think about it. And so just gonna do a diagram now, just look at buying influences. What are the things which actually are going through someone's head when they buy a product. You don't need to list all of these, just the headings are fine. We've got both, if you like, cultural motivations in our head. Cultural beliefs, values and lifestyles. say at the top Er that's just buying behaviour. Patterns of buying behaviour. So the first things going through a buyer's head, or that will influence them, will be the sort of lifestyle they're actually looking for. The value they're attaching to this holiday, is it an important element for them? Is it the one thing in the year for them. Are they just doing it quickly as a one off? What do they expect to get out of the holiday? Now so far we've talked about things like recharging the batteries. What other things is people likely to get out of a holiday though? Imagine when you go on holiday, what other things are you hoping to get as a result of it? A sun tan. Right, a sun tan. Well you're probably only doing that though in order to impress people when you go back. So you're looking for attention probably more than anything. So attention seeking's one thing. Have a good time. Sorry? To have a good time. Okay, you could what, what would you be hoping to achieve during that good time? Have a few laughs, what else though? What other things do you hope or do you think might happen shall we say? To meet some nice people to go on holiday with. Right, meeting people. Things like romance are very important with holidays. I mean, you all know about the image the cruiseliners have with wealthy widows and things like that. The Club Eighteen Thirty idea is much along similar lines, and if you look at a Club Eighteen Thirty brochure, the sort of activities people do together, bringing people together. So this is all an important element. Cuisine. Right, cuisine could be an important motivating factor. Er basically stuffing yourself to excess for two weeks. Drinking yourself to excess for two weeks for peanuts. Again, that would be something. But in general the people who are doing some of those things, a lot of it's probably escapism certain type, complete break from their work. What other things do you think you would hope to get as a result of your holiday? Time to relax. Right. Okay time to perhaps to relax, to reflect. see various water sports Okay, so you can improve your prowess at windsurfing. And certainly there's the fitness, activity side, that can be an important motivating thing. What else will you do on holiday? All we've talked about so far is drinking and lying on a beach. Sorry? Sightseeing. Right, sightseeing. So what do you hope to get out of sightseeing? Increase your knowledge. Right, increase your knowledge. See different cultures. Right, see different cultures. Anything else? Take photographs. Sorry? Okay. Look at nature, get back to nature. Certainly that's the appeal of Central Parcs. Anything else? See how it feels, the way that they live there. Okay well that would again tie perhaps more in with culture. I mean you can, you're starting to get, if you like, a big list now of motivating factors. Er for example all of us in this room, if we went to one destination, we'd probably all come away with a different combination of things that we'd actually got from it. It might be education, it might be knowledge, interest can be another one er relaxation, romance, having a good time there are a whole se sequence of different reasons. There are other reasons as well, things like peace and tranquillity er time to reflect er and yeah there are other motivations as well which you, if you like, are kind of negative. For example the desire to escape your humdrum existence back here, er the desire to escape the family, er to have someone moaning at you continually, these are all important factors which add on. So in effect there are kind of like negative motivating factors which is basically all to do about escape where you don't care where you go as long as you get away from here. And then there are the things you get when you actually go to a destination. So again if we look at all of these things across the top we've got other things influencing across here when you go on holiday you, each of you in this room, you'll probably have some idea beforehand of what you want to get out of that holiday. For example if you go on an overland trip trekking in erm South America, you're clearly looking for something totally different than the person who goes on the sort of typical Club Eighteen to Thirty type holiday. Other things which will influence, it's claimed, are things like social class er again used ex er extensively by marketing people in this country. Now you'll be doing this before Christmas, and what it is is there, there are lots of different categories we can use but the standard one is dividing the population into six distinct categories. By and large it's according to people's occupations and you start with A which will be professional people, surgeons solicitors etcetera. You have B which are managers. C one which would be office workers. C two skilled workers. D unskilled workers and E, that would be everybody else. Okay? And as students you're in E. So this will actually influence you, because you'll be able to look through the brochures and see which of those groups it's being targeted at. Erm to give you an example let me show you this brochure here this is Page and Moy high prices and clearly that is aimed at A and B. Looking at this one you can see that the whole format's totally different, like the cartoon on the front and the layout. And that who would you say that was aimed at? Well it's young people, what sort of occupations? Would it appeal to you? Do you think? Er there Mm yeah I think it would Yeah. So we're probably thinking perhaps partly students. Er because people in this age group haven't yet become managers and certainly not professional, we're probably thinking more in terms of the Es and students and perhaps C twos C ones. These are not cheap holidays so it probably rules out the D category. So the social class structure is important. It's also the question of mixing between these groups as well. It's claimed that people feel uncomfortable if they're plunged into a group of people who are perhaps from a different social class or background say. In particular in this country and it's also the same in France and Germany. We tend to be fairly what we might call gregarious, meaning we like to stay with people of our own type. People speaking our own language, people who do similar things to ourselves. The final one here again, simply economic. Again we're back to price and things of that nature. And then we have the individual psychological factors which go through our heads. And the things that actually go through our heads we refer very often to as cognitions. Cognitions. Our thought processes. For example if you went to Nepal, one of your motivations for going there might be to meditate or relax and that would be a cognition. It's something you would know within your own head. We have the various learning processes, how do we learn? That's quite an interesting one, if you consider as students how do you learn erm in general you probably don't learn that much in lectures because for example we know from experiments that we all have a limited attention span. Basically you will listen for maybe seven minutes then you switch off for two minutes then you switch on again and then you try and think well what was I listening to seven minu well you know, three minutes ago what was probably said in the last two minutes. By the time you've sussed that out, you've missed another five minutes, your brain gets confused so you then switch off again for another three minutes and try and clear everything. And you're doing this the whole time. But how do we actually learn? Taking information through your senses. Okay you take in right reading, listening From experience. From experience and there are also the occasions very often when you're, if you like, force fed. When you've got exams you have to learn. You have to be able to hold it up there and perhaps put it down on paper or apply it. We also learn from things like television. Most of you here, a great deal of your knowledge probably comes from watching television. Possibly more nowadays than, for example, from reading as would have been the case in the past. This is an interesting one, the interpersonal response. How do you interact with people when you go abroad? Are you the type who wants to go up to, you're on holiday in Spain, go up to a Spaniard go hola you know, and actually try and hold a conversation with them. Are you the type who thinks god there's someone from Spain over there, oh it's alright there's a load of people from my nationality in the bar and stick with them. Are you looking for the interaction where you learn something about the culture from talking to the people or do you want minimal interaction where simply you visit a place, and you stay in your little bubble or ghetto with people of your own tour company, you do everything together and you never come into contact with local people. Erm two if you like extremes and there's a lot of things in between. It doesn't incidentally mean that one is good and the other is bad. Er a lot of people give the impression that we should all be more interactive, that we should go abroad and speak languages to many of these people, but the people you come into contact with when you go on holiday in Spain, the only Spanish people are likely to be the waiter who served you and he's serving you as part of his job. His job is also to be friendly to you, to smile at you, you know, when you want it, so it's not really an equal relationship. It's very difficult, if you like, to develop a true friendship and exchange of ideas. The waiter very often will tell you what you want to hear. Yes? If you think about that, it's a very difficult situation. Attitudes are important, what attitudes do you hold. In particular, what prejudices. Do you have a prejudice against for example eating oily food? Do you have a prejudice against the French? Which a lot of English people do. Erm prejudices come from all sorts of things, some of them are historical, some of them are generated out of things like football and arguments in the evening about good teams. Prejudices, we're all born with them, they're if you like perceptions which are only changed very often through experience. We've then got general motivations themselves, which we listed. It's cheap price, good deal, that sort of thing. And finally perhaps your own personality as well. Are you an extrovert person outgoing, willing to take a chance, willing to take a risk or are you more introverted perhaps? What is traits? Traits means characteristics. Just to show you how this has developed, you don't need to copy this down, it's something that you'll do in the second year of your course, but we mentioned in particular here how you interact with people and what goes through your head. And this has actually been categorized into two tables and by , they claim that you can define different types of tourists according to, firstly, the way in which they interact with the local people. So at one extreme you've got the explorer who simply goes off into the unknown. The, the last thing the explorer wants on holiday is to meet people from their own country. Th they wanna get far away from it. They don't really like being called a tourist in many places. Many of them will use the term traveller because somehow it's less derogatory, it sounds more impressive. And these people here will learn languages, they will eat the local food, they will do anything the locals do, they will dress like them, the lot in order to try and get as full a experience as possible. At the other end, you have what we call the charter tourist. The person who goes there and basically they want to take their home with them. In the case of an Englishman they'll want to take their beer, steak and chips, everything over to simply a hot climate and they live in their bubble. So you have these two extremes. In between you have elite, offbeat, unusual, mass and so on but they all lie somewhere between these extremes in terms of totally interacting and totally ignoring in many cases. The second type is the cognitive normative. In other words, defining tourists according to what's actually going through their heads. And here for example you might have the recreational mind, healthy mind and body the existential, the person who as much as anything may be looking for an experience based on meditation, er religion, this sort of thing. Er you've got, also down here, experimental the person who experiments if you like with different cultures, trying to think of a different way, who's interested in religions. Now you may think that the number of people in this category here is very minimal, but there's increasing numbers of people around the world travelling now who are motivated by things like this. You only have to look at the number of visitors going to places such as Nepal er to see the increase there, to see how important this connection be. Now for our purposes, the kind of thing we're gonna do, is look at a much simpler breakdown of tourists. And this is gonna introduce you to a new word called psychographic and psychographic, you think you've got, you can break it in two you've got the psychological aspects and the graphic or mapping, the mapping of the psychology. And this has been translated by a gentleman by the name of Stanley Clog but we don't usually refer to it as Clog's theory or anything like that. And Stanley Clog identifies four different types of tourist and these are the main ones which we're gonna use. Two of them you'll of heard before I'm sure. The first one you won't have done. Psychocentrics are the first one. If you're a psychocentric tourist, you're the type of person who's self inhibited. You're perhaps a little nervous of change you haven't got really a desire for adventure or anything too challenging. You prefer well packaged routine holidays in popular tourism destinations and you're looking at the three Ss or four Ss we should say. So you're looking at a package holiday resort in Spain in the main. Okay, psychocentrics. Again, like to be in the crowds. The alternative are what we call alocentrics, these are outgoing people with varied interests. They're keen to explore, to find new things and they're likely to want independence. And in between these two we also have something called midcentrics who do bits of both, but these are the two extremes. So all of you in this room are either a psychocentric or probably an alocentric. The type of person who goes on this holiday is almost certainly gonna be a psychocentric. The type of person who goes on this holiday to destinations for example want somewhere unusual perhaps to India, is more likely to be an alocentric person cos they're getting away from the crowds. Okay so psychocentrics and alocentrics. So this is what Stanley Clog produced, now we're gonna add two more to this, two that you're all familiar with I'm sure, firstly, sunlust people. People who chase the sun beach holidays and there's a lust for a tan. So for example w I can't remember your name who's the girl next to you? Michelle. Michelle is obviously a sunlust person in that respect and depending on whether she goes to a main package resort in Spain or perhaps a beach in India, she can either be a psychocentric sunlust person or an alocentric sunlust person. And the alternative to this is wanderlust. The person who wants to explore, keep on the move and typified by some form of touring holiday. Okay so now whenever you look at a package holiday brochure, you should be able to identify the market just using two words sunlust alocentric, wanderlust psychocentric and so on. So if you're looking at a touring holiday in Europe it's wanderlust probably, and if it's an, a coach tour round Europe it's almost certain to be psychocentric. If you're looking for a tour around Borneo and Indonesia, that's away from the crowds so we can say it's an alocentric wanderlust. So it's a very simple way, if you like, for us to define markets fairly accurately. Okay can everybody understand that? Sunlust, wanderlust, psychocentrics and alocentrics. Right well you'll be doing a lot more of this in your marketing. Er I've got two handouts which I want you to pick up er now. One is something sp specifically written on the demand for the tourism product after nineteen ninety one. Try to highlight those factors or the determinants of demand which were gonna be important in buying the tourism products in nineteen ninety two. And the second is something on tourism decision making. This simply gives you, it's only a two page handout, it gives you some idea of the sort of motivations from what people have written about them. What I also want you to do on this is if you can refer to Adrian Bull's book, the Economics of Travel and Tourism, and just go through the relevant chapter on demand. It's the Wensley Gate,Group. The tape recorder is now running, I hope that it's going to be recording, but let us not erm, be inhibited as a result of that. Erm, programmes, erm, haven't got a programme. No. Erm, I haven't got a programme. Thank you. You haven't got a programme, the very last one. Wh what, how how very carefully calculated that was. Erm, we are today, going to do the Black Sheep of the Family, erm, because erm, erm, doesn't feel that he he's up to doing the one that he thought he would do this week. That will be postponed probably for a fortnight. Can I remind you, erm, looking at that programme, that, erm, healthy eating now appears on, I think it's the, sixteenth of March, and sadly I shall be here on the sixteenth of March. I shall be in Leicester at any rate, and I may very well come and join you, to talk with you about healthy eating. I was hoping to miss that one, because you might be trying to persuade me that I should erm, partake rather more of healthier food, than of the unhealthy food that I do eat. Er, it is. Yes, it is it is a project study, and therefore it would be as well, if we were all thinking about it in advance. It it is in tha the hand-book. Er, it's on page a hundred and thirteen. And the idea is that as we've done with previous erm, discussions, if each one could come along armed with some information to do with healthy eating, erm, there's a list on page a hundred and seventeen, that might start you off thinking. Erm, celery, low fat dairy products, incidents of heart disease for those who have an olive oil rich diet. I don't olive oil, that's the trouble. No. Formic acid can be helpful to pregnant women. Well that certainly doesn't apply to me. No. No. Twenty two heaped teaspoons full of sugar every day. Well, considering I have none, somebody's having an awful lot. Er, and eating will be always one of, and so on, there's a few items there, that you might like to concentrate on, and perhaps, as much as anything, if you have your minds open in the intervening number of weeks. If you see an article, a snippet, er, a comment, from a newspaper, from a magazine. Cut it out and bring it along, and I think it will all add to our discussion of healthy eating. I will try and remind you about that, er, on other occasions, so that it doesn't er, slip into the recesses. Er, and the other thing, just to comment on the programme. I hope that we shall have the Deputy Lord Mayor, er, Bob on the last Wednesday of our session. The reason the programme's taken so long, was to find a time when he's available. That Wednesday is in the school holiday, although we shall be continuing. It means that he can slip out of school, er, in the afternoon, when normally, in nor on a normal school day, he would not be able to do that. Erm, so I'm hoping that that will work, it's it's down in the diary for him to do that, and and I've given a little note about what the Adult School is all about. And I'll write to him to confirm, and er, if I do bump into him, I shall jog memory of that one. Erm, with the change of programme, then, the Black Sheep of the, of the Family. Er, which I have already found. It is on page a hundred and thirty- nine, for those of you who wish to er, follow. It starts off with. Baa Baa Black Sheep, Have you any Wool? How does the black sheep of the nursery rhyme appear to children? Other sheep they see, are unlikely to be black, so a black sheep is different. They soon learn that anyone referred to as a black sheep, is not only different, but is regarded as being in disgrace. This is all politically incorrect. Yes, yes, yes it is, indeed, I was thinking about that. isn't it, nowadays. Wh wh wha what shall we do, if they were saying a black sheep? Erm. A green one. Erm, a green. Yes, yes, yes. I don't think you can even say, non-white, can you, nowadays. Yes. A Jacob. a Jacobs sheep. A Jacob. A Jacob's sheep. Yeah. Well,per yes, that's er, yes. A Jacob's sheep. So I do I don't know. Is a, a Jacob's sheep is black, is it. Yeah, it's black. you know. Mm. No, they're, they're dark brown. A ger a ger, yes, a da a dark co a dark coloured. Like chocolate. Yes, dark coloured. Mm. Mm. Can't fit the notes in for that. He he hear we go again, and ev even things, we can't say sheep. Well, I mean, isn't it, got it's sexist overtones or it is Erm, you mean to say sheep, as opposed to ewe, or Oh, come off it. Someone was saying on television one said, one of those, er petrol weekend things, about all the black things, and they they were saying, you know, the black a black mood. Somebody's in a black mood, they ob were objecting to that. Yes, yes, yeah. Life's a bit short for all that, isn't it. Isn't it about time this silly nonsense was laughed out of court, and have done with it. Yes. Yes, quite. I think we should forget these Yes, yes, yes. I think it's absolutely right. So erm, instead of black, and we shall, we shall continue to say Yes. black sheep, they are, and black they they are, so they are black sheep. In this dictionary of phrase and fable. Brewer equates black sheep with bet noir, the eyesore in the flock, a disgrace, something unpleasing. Sheep used to be of great importance to the British economy. Black sheep was often despised by shepherds, and their wool was less valuable. Nevertheless, even black sheep were used for export. Okay, that's that's the bit of erm, sheep background. The nursery rhyme then, comes from Tommy Thumb's Pretty Song Book from around seventeen forty-four, and the division of bags, one for the master, one for the dame, one for the little boy who where wherever he is, lives down the lane, is said to refer to the export tax on wool, which was imposed as far back as twelve seventy-five, making even the outsider sheep of value. So black sheep are different. The term is used negatively, but the black sheep of the family maybe an attractive person, someone with a sparkle, with a courage to be different, with a courage to defy the norm. Everyone, is says, can think of black sheep of their acquaintance. Every can you think of a black sheep of your acquaintance, do you do you. No, I don't whether I can. Not acquaintance. Perhaps I've, perhaps I've, perhaps I've mixed in a very sheltered society. Perhaps family history, perhaps, but not the very Yes, yes. No. I don't think er, and of course, er, again perhaps the idea of a black sheep, has changed over the years. Erm, circumstances which made someone, perhaps fifty years ago, considered to be the black sheep of the family, wouldn't necessarily be the same now. No. Mm. Erm, spivs. I I don't think I had anybody in my family who was a spiv. But there was somebody in in the street where I lived, who was a spiv, and he was considered to be the black sheep of the family, didn't quite fit in when everybody else did. Yeah. Yeah. Nowadays, you know, erm, don't know whether that sort of thing Enterprise, culture. En enterprise, culture, yes indeed. Yes, yes. Er, I mean in the olden days, they used, they they usually the sent to the colonies or, sent into the army or or into religion, weren't they. Mm. Mm. Mm. Also, we are a much more tolerant society, generally. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. We can encompass people who are a bit different nowadays, which they couldn't. Yeah. Couldn't in those days. Yes. Yes. Yeah. I think they use the phrase now, do their own thing. That yeah, yeah, yeah Mm. Mm. Mm. Yes, yeah. So we now have erm, reference to the bible and the erm, prodigal son. The prodigal son was a black sheep to his father, and to his older brother. But how different were the reactions of the two. His adventure started off quite normally, as I'm sure you'll remember from the erm, from the parable. Every child must break away from the parental fold, and establish his own personal identity. Things began to go wrong when he got into bad company. He had then asked for his share of his inheritance. He wanted it then and there, not later. With money in his possession, was he a pray to the unscrupulous. I'm sure he was. He had journeyed into a far country. That showed initiative. But did it cut him off from the guidance he needed? The story relates, that he spent all. He was not prudent enough to have saved, so he began to be in want. Having came to the he was hungry, so he was glad to be h hired by a local farmer as a swine herd. Even the pods he was giving to the pigs, he would have liked to have eaten himself. He decided to go home, and offer to be a servant instead of a son. But his father was overjoyed to see him, and at once threw a party. His elder brother coming home from the fields and hearing dancing enquired what was going on. When he heard the explanation, and that even the best calf had been killed, the fatted calf had been killed, to help the party he was furious. And that is understandable. At this point, we are then asked to consider, does the elder brother become the family black sheep, is there a sort of change of position. I don't know what I wouldn't think so. No. a brother. The story makes its point to the finish. Mm. Mm. So th they,yo yo you couldn't see a situation where the person who er was previously in disgrace, was no longer in disgrace, and the one, the the the brother, then showing je jealousy, was himself in disgrace. Sounds like fiction. Sounds like fiction. No, it's just the father's attitude that changed, not the way that Mm. Mm. Well, he, he was repentant, he was only repentant because he was hungry. Yes, yes, yeah, yeah. Can you stop being a black sheep then, did did did he stop being a black sheep when he came back. Was that the end of the story, as Trevor was saying. Well, he certainly gave the father the opportunity to say, I told you so. Mm. Mm. Done, Yeah Mm. Or he could say I was one I was one of the black sheep, but I'm no longer. I'm no longer, yes. The next, the next question is is jealousy another powerful promoter of family black sheep. I'm not quite sure what that means. Is is is is jealousy another power promoter of family black sheep. It is jealousy that pushes people into being black sheep, into er doing something which is not acceptable. Yes, I think it can part of it. Mm. Mm. You know one sees, rightly or wrongly, that the other one is having preferential treatment. Yeah, yeah. And getting attention seeking. It could well have been the jealousy of the older brother, what caused him to be thought of as a black sheep. Black sheep, yes, yeah So jealousy is quite powerful, could could be the driving force, between sons, yes. sons. In those days when there's land expected. Yeah, yeah, yeah. This, by the way, erm, it it is applied with this study, and that is during the thirties, particularly on the, well it it actually carried on into the forties, but but the, there was a almost a character in many plays, where one one character was, in effect, the family black sheep. Erm, there was in Eden End, erm, there was another character in erm,there was a further one in Oh, yes. Yeah. Now, all these were black sheep, they were the nicest of the lot, and there was no, they were the ones you turned to, if you wanted to discuss your troubles. Not the other respectable brigade, and indeed in Eden End, the whole play turns on the jealousy of the sister, who remained at home. Mm. The the family black sheep, the other sister went, er, er, left home to go on the stage. But of course, when she came back, all sorts of things began to happen, that's by the way. One other little point, in Brideshead Revisited, there's a character who never appears, she's always spoken about, and thwarted and that is the man who Brideshead marries, and she says, talking to Julia, Julie was no better than she should have been. You know, she says, in every Catholic family, er, there is always a relapse person, and it's usually the nicest. Aw. Mm. So even Evelyn Waugh's told this story. Yes, Yes, yes, yeah. So a again, the idea of perception comes into it, doesn't it. It's it's the way, , yes. Erm, the person is perceived and and and the perception may not be accurate. It it that it may be influences, er, at work there. Erm, the the the suggestion was then, that the two young men and the the parable of the prodigal of son, started off as insiders, but in turn, they became outsiders in in in in some way. Erm, and the final short paragraph of that section refers to the parable of the lost sheep, er, not necessarily of black in colour, but deviant in behaviour, figuratively a black sheep. I'll leave you to to look up that one, and erm, and and read if you want to do. A section then on Branwell Bronte. A short life, you erm, you you you perhaps will be able to contribute from your knowledge of erm, Bronte, particularly of Branwell Bronte. Branwell Patrick Bronte, dates eighteen seventeen to eighteen forty-eight. Was the only son in a family of six. From Mrs Gaskill's life of Charlotte Bronte, and from Barbara and Gareth Lloyd-Evans, companion to the Bronte's. It seems clear that Branwell had so much potential, he might have been as successful as his sisters. What went wrong then. His sisters also had to bear tragedy. Branwell was only four when his mother died. Before he was nine, two of his sisters, Elizabeth and Maria had also died. How difficult for an imaginative and a sensitive child. He was loved and looked up to by his sisters and aunt, and his father unstintingly spent time, energy and money on him. Eventually his sisters, especially Charlotte lost patience with him. But when he died, the family was anguished by his loss and his unfulfilled talent. He painted, he wrote poetry and stores, but he lacked discipline and become an alcoholic. Charlotte letters showed how bored she was by her limited home environment. Was boredom part of Branwell's trouble, too. It was Branwell, who suggested that the Harworth parsonage should publish its own magazine, but after the third issue, it was Charlotte who took over the leadership from him. In the short period, when Charlotte was away at school, that's January eighteen thirty-one, to May eighteen thirty-two, he was writing well. Essentially a creative person, he was unpredictable, and became self-destructive. As an artist, Branwell went to London to seek admission to the Royal Academy Schools, but he lost heart, as soon as he arrived, and never even began. He became more and more depressed, and sought consolation in the local pub, where he was soon well known as a talkative character. Encouraged by his father and several friends, Branwell acquired an artist's studio in Bradford, where, at first, he made an effort, and cultivated influential friends. But, sad to say, talking and drinking got the better of him, and his work deteriorated. Twice he became a tutor, but he neglected his work. In one case he had an affair with the mistress of the house, which led to his dismissal. He had a period as a railway clerk at Bridge, but was dismissed because of a deficit of eleven pounds. As Barbara and Gareth Lloyd-Evans say, it's impossible to know how the money disappeared. Embezzlement forgetfulness, inefficiency. Did Branwell grow up. He promised to much. He was his own worst enemy. Like the prodigal son, he wasted his substance in riotous living. Er, it's a bit of back background then about Branwell. You know anything about Branwell. isn't it. Mhm. Erm, that his father didn't make him go to school. Mm Er, there's a suggestion that he had mild epilepsy, and they tried to keep it quite, and his father tutored him at home. So he didn't have a normal life a boy of his circumstances in those days. Would have, yes. It was more lonely, there weren't other boys around him. Mm. Mm. There weren't other people around him, except his family. Yeah, So, Didn't help an unstable character. That may have contributed, yes, yes. yeah. Any other Plus the rather powerful father figure. Mm. Mm. Yes. Which tend to . Yes, I I think, in cer in in most cases that would happen, wouldn't it, if if if the child starts off with a feeling of insecurity, with possible instability. Mm. Then a powerful father is going to make the situation worse. Because him being the only son. Mm. He was probably spoilt by his sisters, and and got more or less what he wanted as a child, and As a child. Carried on you know, what I want, I get. Mm. in adulthood. What is this, thirty, thirty, how old was he, thirty-one when he died. Thirty-one. Oh, yes. Thirty-one very very young age, for someone, apparently so so talented to die. Think there were drugs as well as the drink. Oh well, that Yes, yes, yes, yeah. Not mentioned there, but doubtless. That is, that is true. Okay, the next thing, erm, accurate or not, Trevor and I have already sa erm, talked about this, erm, many an Adult School members will remember the enthusiasm and popularity that surrounded the future Edward the eighth, when he was Prince of Wales. Prince of Wales it is suggested erm, was a black sheep of the family. Here it was thought, was a man who understood the people and for them. Someone with a genuine concern for the wounded of World War One, the miners of South Wales, the unemployed, for, and homeless in general. In slightly less than a year, citizens high expectations had been shattered and it was all over. As John Parker put it, in the King of Fools, he had it all, wealth, charm, good looks, and he threw it all away on an American divorcee, who even his closest advisers considered an adventuress. On the folly of his Nazis connections. On the absurdity of his get rich quick schemes, which involved him with shady financiers. Why? This much travelled man, with all of his promise was at best, a controversial figure, and at worst a family black sheep. He could have said with Hamlet, The Time is Out of Joint, and Cursed Spit that Ever I was Born to Set it Right. Edward, known as David to his family, did not want the role of Kingship, but then, neither did his brother Bertie. Many would say that as George the Sixth, he succeeded where Edward had failed. George had discipline. A sense of duty, a loyal wife and children. Affection bringing with it devoted support, brought success from a role undertaken reluctantly. Edward said he could not fulfil the role without the support of the woman he loved. Some family black sheep are making a bid for affection. Edward had the attention of the whole world, but without adequate personal affection, it was of no avail. On December the eighth, nineteen thirty-six, time of the ab abdication, the Times published a singularly apt quotation from A Hopeless, Throneless King, Loathsome to Men Below To God's Above a Sad Example of the Slights of Life. What is your view of the way Edward was treated after his abdication. And none of us admits to being alive when all this happened, we, that goes without saying. Absolutely. I did see him as a six year old child. So yes, as a Visited our town, our town. He was a six year old child. Erm, I was a six year Yes, yes, yes, yes, yeah. So wh wh what do you think of the the attitude that was displayed towards him after the abdication? He was very, very, generously treated. Far too generously. I mean, he he could five hundred thousand pound on a Christmas present to his bride. My God. Mm. He was more or less paid to go away and keep his head down, wasn't he. Yeah. No matter what the cost. Most of the cr Now it's all over,attitude, push it all away. Yeah. All the here , a lot of the hereditary jewellery never, never got found. No. No. After he had gone. It was the er, either they they er Yes, I think they off. say something. Mm. So he he was he was paid off in in er, in a way. Yeah. Yeah. Allowed to Yeah, they had to. Go away and keep quiet, and Yeah, yes. It all Of course, the erm, the interesting thing is, that he wasn't the black sheep of the family. No. No. Without going into the question of the character whose characters have always been brothers, Mm. At all, he was the one in the family who was locked up, chuck. I know. Even when the,nea al almost almost the night before he er, he he went abroad. Erm, his successor said, this is the man we're going to loose. He's the best of the lot, I mean, it may not be saying a lot, Mm. But he was the best of the bunch. Mm. You know from purely from er, that point of view. But the suggestion is that he was the black sheep, because he gave up the throne for a woman. And that that changes him almost overnight, from being the idol of the masses, to being the black sheep of the family. Just to just to at all, no sense of dedication, because the job which he knew was going to be his, before he met the this Simpson. Mm. Mm. Mm. Must have guessed what a burden it was He was a complete wasn't he? Yeah. Yeah. A burden to his brother Yes, yes, yes. He must have been aware of that. But she was under his, er, he was under her influence, she was a domineering woman, and erm, she was a stronger character than he was, and she thought she could erm, get away with it, and she didn't. She thought, she thought she be Queen consort. Yeah. Yeah. That's right. Yeah. The best that could be said Queen Mary, she stood no chance. The best that could be for the the Simpson woman is that at least when they had married, she stuck to him right to his death. Yeah. Mm. Yeah, I think she made him very happy. Well, you wouldn't think so to look at the photographs, would you. Well, I know, I know. They went around the world sponging on friends. Yes. I don't now how ever long it was. And I think, I mean, you know, he'd enormous popularity, the famous photograph with the Welsh miners, something must be done. Well, in fact, what did he do? I mean, he he, the next Prince of Wales, the present one, whatever one thinks of him, and perhaps, whatever one thinks of of of his alleged mistresses and so on and so forth, he's done a terrific lot of of achievement in in interest in the arts, Yeah. managing er erm, his estates. He has done a lot. Mm. Mm. performance. Whether or not he makes a good King, we shall have wait and see. Well, at least his backed up his ideas with practical solutions. He has, he has. Yeah. Yeah. I think he would make a good King. I think he would make a most splendid King, but I mean, that's not what we're here, really discussing. But he has to be careful not to be the black sheep of the family. Mm. Mm. Mm. Yes. I'm a bit I got, I got, I got a number to choose from, certainly yes, yes, yes, yes. Oh well, this has always been the case, hasn't it. I mean, it's only because the press and the media generally know all about it, There's so much in the past, that's been given, just about every one of them, I mean. Mm. I think in that position,would be very easy to stray from the straight and narrow. Yes, yes, yes. Mm. I can imagine it would be, because perhaps, erm, the higher you are, not only is it more easy to fall, but it's more easy to be tempted. Temptations are there. Mm. Yeah. Mm. Well in these days,but I mean years and years ago, I mean you, people didn't know what half of that's going on because there wasn't the media coverage any way. Mm. Did did the what? In in what sense, In in in any sense, I mean, we'd may not know the true, but we know something goes on, don't we,. Well, I I I mean, it, it, it's nothing to the stories that were circulating in the late Victorian period about the Duke of Mm. Oh yeah. Who physically the present Prince of Wales resembles. But it didn't sort of the world-wide coverage that er, Th th th yes, there is, there is an immediacy about Yes. erm, press coverage today that there wasn't years ago. Yes, yes,all over the world. Yes, oh yes, So if if he blows his nose in Australia, we know about it today. Yes. Whereas years ago, it would have taken some time for that come by by which time it was no longer news, and people shrugged their shoulders and say well, But that surely is a very interesting thought about this, and until the, er, Bishop of Bradford preached his famous sermon and all the thing blew up, people in this country had never heard of er, Mrs Simpson. Mrs Simpson. No, no. They'd been abroad, I believe, hadn't they? How on earth did the press even them though, when people were coming, I know. I I mean, my mother of often said she, the first she'd saw about it was when, almost on the abdication. Mm. Yeah. Yeah. Th th the bill-board said, They kept it very quiet. The Mrs Simpson, she thought, who was Mrs Simpson. How on earth did they keep Keep it quiet. They might have muzzled the press. Well they had the press weren't like they are today. So,wh what,yo yo you you think Barbara, that, it was because the press were more gentlemanly, Yeah, yeah. that the press,th the members of the press, Yeah. gentlemen themselves. authority. Yeah. I th I think that, you didn't have them photo Well it's like everybody else you know that. So th th there there was there was there was a certain amount there was a certain amount of self interest, that the erm, the people of the press thought there could be something in it for them, if they, if they kept quiet. What about fear? Was, was there more fear, wa wa was it more likely that the press would fear repercussions on them in some way, if they were to break confidences. Yes, we don't what Yeah. Yeah. I thought that could be it. Yes. Perhaps it would blow over. You know,nine day wonder. Mm. Mm Well, I think they were hoping, weren' they. No, I think they thought it would be a nine day wonder, it would just go away. I think the Archbishop of Canterbury was hoping it would. Well, let's face it, I mean, he had several other ladies, didn't he. He he he jumped from Lady Furbishers bed to straight into Wallis's didn't he. Yeah. because I remember reading her book. Lady Furbisher. Mm. Erm, and sh she she was at the party when he, and she was going away, that was it, and she said, said to Wallis, will you look after David for me. Yeah. Yeah. Which she did. Very well. And Yeah,her eye on David. Well, it's Could I just say, that er, What right, that's a point from Frances, please. Er, at this time, I used to keep scrap books of the Royal Family, for years, I did, Still have them. erm, you have, I haven't, and erm, there was a photograph that I cut out of the paper sometime before he abdicated, over the Prince of Wales at the races with Mrs Simpson. Mm. Mm. Now, nothing was said about it. Nothing was said. Wh how long, how before was that Oh, it was, it, you know, a while before, I mean, you Mm. twice, I think that's what people couldn't swallow, I mean When she was Mm. Yes Yes, yes. That was the main thing. But there was no, there was no question of, who is this woman that No, no. No. But then, I mean, it was quite common,that the Prince of Wales had got several ladies. Oh, loads. Yeah. I mean, the first Prince of Wales is round Right. No, well, there's some little village near near erm Yeah, ain't there. Where there's a a hunting lodge. Oh they had one in the, in the Yeah, he used, he used to visit that a lot, Yeah. Well, he met he her, didn't he. Sorry. Lady So that, the Oh, possibly, possibly. Yeah. Er, Trevor. Er, there is this curious erm, not quite sure what the right word is for it. But, people, both like the Royal Family, do be er, veterans of debauchery, and at the same time setting the highest standards. Mm mm. Er, that they've either got to, well they've preferably got to be bought rather than, just Yeah, yeah, yes it Oh well,oh, they always have plenty of women, or, but his private life. Now what, you know, his private life was above reproach, and somehow or other people can accept both, and happy to do, it's about any public figure. It is, yes, I was, I was going to raise that point, it is not, it's not, it's not just the royalty, no, oh no. erm, it it is people in public life. Yes. Erm, who are, who variously tread er, a very difficult tight-rope, because they fall one way, and it's acceptable, they fall the same way the next day, and it's not acceptable. I believe it's true, but when there was rumour about Mr Majors, er, contact with, was it, the the caterer Caterer he's popularity went up no end. Yes, yes. But normal. Yes, he, he, yes. Erm. and at that time, the only paper scandal, was research, was was the News of the World. Mm. Yes, yes. You always News of the World If you want to make the naked truth unfurled ask tomorrow for the News of the World. What. naked, I suppose. Yes, yes, yes, yeah. yeah. So do Sorry, go on, yeah. Before we go on to something else. What happened to his offspring? Any, tell me anybody, what h happened to I mean, were they looked after, or Yes. I don't know Does he have any? Did he have any. Knowing what you just say, Wallis He just, he might have done in his younger days. Woo, woo, for the, for the benefit of the tape, it's not very good, one at a time, please. Yeah. It used to be said there are a lot of very prosperous, very prosperous farmers round in Melton Mowbray. Mm. Mm. Well, she. None of their farmers have a Erm, er, generally people in that position, and and it it was a a weakness of Edward's. Or rather Edward's weakness was for married women. Mhm. And you look at the recent king's mistresses, Edward the eighth, and er, sorry Edward the seventh. Seventh, yeah. but they were all and it was on the safe side, whatever happened. But this was a, this was a priority he wouldn't have, they wouldn't bothered anyone unless they got a husband in the background, somewhere. This was for safety. But mind you, according to some people it was virtually impossible for him to beget any bastards, but still. Yeah. This also be circulated. Could be, could be. Mm. Mm. So there there there there there we, Yeah,whe whe whether or not we consider him to have been a black sheep, then we certainly have erm, rather gone into his character. Who this ch Who this ch , Yes, erm, had er er thing to say about his character, without really being, erm, unkind about his brothers. Which was suggestion, er or about later members of the the Royal Family, the present Prince of Wales. Do think this is, probably why,wh he went to the front in the First World War, what was it, the Prime Minister shouted out, don't mind you being killed, but I don't want you being taken prisoner,he co he couldn't, you know, hadn't got enough courage to hold out. Mm I don't know. No. I I've always assumed that that meant that it would be such a tremendous lever for the enemy to hold someone like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean,wh wh what would you do. I mean. Erm, we we we have the King, erm. Yes. We have, I don't know er, I've got your point. Mm. And, what, we could do anything we like to him, unless you give up. up the wall. up the wall. I've always assumed that that was it, that erm, I don't know. Yes, I would have No, thought that was it, yeah. We have, erm, one more paragraph and a few questions to discuss and time, what is it, it's about ten past now, is it, according to your Yeah. more correct watches, yes. One, one minute to three according to mine. Getting later and later all the time. The socially under privileged. Erm, I don't know whether you claim to belong to the socially under privileged. Yeah. The Observer, in nineteen ninety-three, referring to Hunslet Leeds, made the point that improved housing is no compensation for the destruction of a community, without which outsiders are created. Arson, car thefts, burglary, muggings, many of them done by children and young people, have apparently become common place in Hunslet . Complaints bring extraordinarily crude recriminations from the vandals. Are some of the yobs, children who've been excluded from school? What a dilemma for teachers, with children who are out of parental control and disruptive in school. In school, they will unsettle students and staff alike. Out of school they will be unoccupied and, Satan finds work for idle hands. Can individuals and the community serve without spiritual values What about that as a starter before we look at the other questions, then. Can individuals and the community survive, I said serve, my my my apologies. Can individuals in the community survive without spiritual values? I would say no. Mhm. So would I. I would say Well, it's harder without values when, Well, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You need the element of superstition there, I don't know. Well, no. Right, okay, so so so. Spiritually, perhaps Yeah, so we Yes,the the the the there have to, there have to be values. Yeah. Human values. Human values. Yeah. There have to be values, they have to be human values. Erm, spiritual, you you you you think erm, that th they they have to be spiritual values. Well, spiritual values, or human values. Mm. Mm. I see that as much the same. Much the same, yes, yes, yeah. An ethical framework. Yeah, Yes. So there has there has to be an ethical framework. An ethical framework. But it's all very well saying there has to be a framework, there have to be values. How do you get people to accept those values and to live within that framework? I'm afraid they've got to be Mm. But if they're completely alienated, Mm. Mm. they won't accept the value because they'll reject Mm. I think that people have got to turn in the other direction, and really want to be because I see in schools there are Mm. And really it starts with the family and the family Yes, yes, yes, yes. That's right, it does. What and then you start with the women. Well, not just women, men as well, but mothers are the first teachers of the young. Mm. Mm. So fam , so family values are terribly important and they begin in the home where they best taught, in the first place by the mother, but obviously by the family. yes, yes. And the school has a part to play. Yes. Mm, yeah, yeah. Oh yes, yes, I'm m , as as I say, I I I can understand all this, but I I I am not sure how you can persuade people who don't somehow, share your opinion with values ethical values, human values, er, to live within that society, and to to obey the rules that you would like to set, when they really don't observe those rules. There is a certain amorality Yes. Among people nowadays. You can't Germany from nineteen thirty-three to nineteen forty-five. What, what happened in Germany,wh wha. People did as they were told. People did as they were told. If they want to create that sort of society, Yes. Mm. if they're not being desirable one by our standards, but a society can be made to work, if there's enough pressure put on it. Mm. They're not erm, conscious, I suspect. People won't do anything they're told if you get them like this, secret police and a few other little dodgers. It worked in Russia. And Rumania. When they're not Rumania, you know. This is an awkward question, Mm. Yes. Suggesting that spiritual values are the only solution. Mm. Mm. They are not. No, I don't, no There are moral pressures that can be, er er, applied, because nothing much to do with our sort of morality. But then you,th th the the end is, er, a society in which we could all live, erm, on reasonable terms with each other, at peace with each other . Er, the means to that end, are justified by the end, even so. So if you Well, you won't Yes. But it's okay, it it it is possible for these moral values to be implanted in people by the exercise of force, by fear, er, or it is possible by an understanding, an acceptance of spiritual moral, ethical values. Er, are those the only two ways in which it could be achieved? Have we got to choose one or the other. I think time will come when we will have to. Mm. Because the erm, situation will become so bad, and,I think people might turn the other way when it comes to a a state where they have to be Mm. Perhaps. Surviving in a moral sense, rather than a physical sense. Well, I suppose a physical sense as well, because if they can't see how it can continue. Mm. Because the situation is getting worse every day. I mean you can look back like, just over a few years, Mm. and see the er, decay has set in more and more and more. It's growing in a mental And in order to put a stop to it, there has got to be a resurgence of a belief in values, whatever those values may be. Back to basics. I think yeah. Back to basics. I think people have got to start Mm. Well, it's more respect for other people in this world, I mean, at the moment there's nothing. Yeah, that's right, yes. Mm. I think probably, the the the two alternatives that that and have both put forward. Yeah, yeah. You know, either one way or the other. Something's got to happen. They're all Either through fear, or through I think, something can can happen, that, I mean, really terrible, that could put the fear into people, and then maybe, that would sort of turn people in view of it. Some, mm, mm. Gonna take a long time, though, isn't it. I mean, they're so indoctrinated, these days. Well, if you think something like AIDS, it comes in, you know, where a lot of people die disease, you could always important. Doesn't seem to have stopped them, does it. No, it didn't No,never stop them I don't know why. But cer any rate heterosexuals,as well, isn't it. Cer cer certainly AIDS is the, is is is the the sort of erm, fear th th th that the the occurrence that creates the fear, that might be sufficient to stop peoples That's right, yeah. I mean, it might be something else. Mm. Might not be AIDS, but erm Yes,I think, of morals in the first century Yes, I was thinking Yes. Yeah. Going to be a very small, going to be a very small part. Yes, yes, yes, yes, I don't that's got a lot to do, really. I mean, AIDS is a very very small part of of the death toll. Yeah. Take cancer. It is, it is, yes, is it, it is at the present time, but it is it is growing. Yeah Yeah. It is growing. That's that's the with AIDS. It has the difference, if there is the implication, that in many perhaps in most cases of AIDS, it could have been avoided by, what used to be called clean living. Sure. Yeah, yeah. Mm. It's possible to get it , whereas nobody can control, I think, cancers. No comment on peoples No. No. But then, if if you think of those children that murdered that child. Oh. That was awful. Mm. I mean, probably yo you know, I don't know, probably next year, might not just be one case, there might be two or three cases of that. I don't know. But probably something like this, might turn people in the other direction. Mm. It certainly erm, sent a shock of horror though the whole country, Yeah. Yes, yes. Er, whole country was for, you know So more mothers er, with children are known to Brains. Brains, yeah, yeah. Put the fear into parents from that point of view. It lasted for about a fortnight, that, didn't it. Yeah. Exactly. Yes, I mean, it it doesn't last long, does it. No. No. No. They soon forget. They get nowhere, if something else takes their mind, and Yeah, yeah. Like going to ants or the people. Doesn't happen to people who are most likely to be A lady in one of the flats said, there are still children playing about on their own. Mm. Yes, yes, yes. But then it's a shame that children can't play around on their own. I mean, I did. Yes, yes. There was thi th the I think that this is this is children's This is the point behind all this discussion, isn't it, that erm, we have reached a stage where certain things er, we take for granted as being difficult, as being frightening Yeah. as being dangerous. Yeah. Er, twenty years ago certainly, wouldn't have been taken for granted. No. No. Erm, I was talking to er, a young man this morning. Erm, he he he was saying that his young boy of eight, he doesn't allow to play out alone. He takes him to a football training course, because he doesn't like to think that he goes to play football on the park. Yeah. But twenty years ago, he would have gone out himself, at that age, Yeah. Yes, yes, quite. to go out and play football. So within twenty years there has been an enormous change. Yeah. Yes. Erm, I, there's a very small example. I received an unexpected parcel in the post the other morning, and my first thought was, is this safe or not. Is it a bomb. Is it a bomb. I mean, years ago that would never have occurred. I put it down, and I phoned the people I thought might have been the recipients of it, to make sure it was genuine, Yeah. And they, I I suggested they should come and collect it, and if I hadn't got a er er er er a reasonable answer, I would have phoned the police. Yeah. Now would you have done that, five, ten, fifteen years ago. No. No. No. You would have picked up the parcel and you would have delivered it yourself. Or you would have, say, taken it to the Post Office, or something. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But erm, nowadays, you, I think we we we've all got this this this idea, that we have to. Aware of. We're almost accepting that life is difficult. But it's just self defence. And it is self defence. Mm. It is self defence. Let's have a look at some of the closing questions, erm, before we we run out of time and the teas ready. About how long have erm, we got. We we we we we're doing alright. We're doing very well, are we, yes, look at my peculiar watch, yes, Panic not. Changes in social mores are reflected in the current definition of family of black sheep, and we haven't asked what the current erm, definition of family of black sheep is. For example, couples now live together and have children quite openly. Why, on the other hand, there are hostels for battered wives. Has society modified it's conception of family and of black sheep, or are these changes the outcome of a climate of openness I think we've touched on this, to some extent, already, by saying things have changed. I can answer this by a a simple illustration in language. That what I always call a family, is now referred to a lot a lot as a family. Mm. Mm. Oh. A term which certainly I, wouldn't have understood a few years ago. Yes, yes, yeah. So that that that that I mean, you can see in the Mercury, that night after night in the birth column, Mm. er, announcements where they give both surnames at the beginning. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes. Yes. Mm. What name does a child take in a case like that. Mother's name, I believe. Yeah, yeah, there's sometimes arguments. You see a, a rush of double-barrelled names now. Yes. But it is, I I think automatically the mother's name is given to the child, but it can be decided that the child takes the father's name. Erm, and the chi and and that, the the father's name, can therefore, appear on the birth certificate. So the child, can be born to Miss Jones, have a father called Smith, and the child can be either Smith or Jones. That's right. But once decided, it has to stay with that until it gets On the medical records, it would go down under its mother's name, but then records go down under another name. Yes, yes, yes yes, yes, but there is. So there is there is a wider acceptance on the one hand, of erm, sort of freedom, erm, and I know we're back to this idea of sexual freedom, but there is the violence within our society, and and the the the question probably is, are those two connected, as we give greater freedom on the one hand, do we get a higher incidence of violence on the other hand. No I don't think you get a higher incidence. No, I think this is where the society has definitely improved. Mm. We are now, won't accept domestic violence, whereas it's always gone on. Yes. Yes. Mm. And at the the battered wives hostel, Mm. are a response to our objection to domestic violence. Against women and children who, against their lives. Yeah. That is no longer acceptable. It used to be acceptable in the same way as incest. Mm. Yeah. Which used to be common place. It. People haven't suddenly stopped,ab sexually abusing their children. It wasn't even illegal, until nineteen oh, something. Mm. That was accepted that the master of the house Yeah. did as he liked with the females of his I was reminded of this, the other night at a little theatre, I forgotten it er, when we were watching on the point of Oh, yeah, that that, yeah. Yes, yes, yes, yes. I mean. I've no idea, but I imagine so, yes. Mm. Mm. Mm. So it's a, it's a greater awareness, rather than a greater for this. So I'm not at all sure, that myself, it is so much worse. I think things that which were accepted, are no longer brought up Brought out in the open, yes, yes, yes So I suppose I'm talking now about, er, not crime, you know, vandalism, but in the family situation. Yes, yeah. Neither party will put up with a lot. Mm. Mm. But they used to. But I, I think it's also erm, worth saying at this point, that a a, the higher rate of divorce is perhaps an indication again, Yeah. Yes. people, is not, are not just opting out of marriage, but they're not prepared to put up with the situation, No, no, that's right. but years ago they would have put up with, and said nothing. Yeah. Erm, so you can't, you must be careful not to draw the wrong conclusions from the, the figures that erm, we were given. Yeah. Yeah. So the two are not necessarily connected. What about question number five then. You will be able to find other examples of family black sheep. I can't think of any. We have two in the, in the distant past. Yes, yeah. Can you with any of these characters, see stages at which they might have been rescued, and by what means. One of them. Rescued from what? Rescued from what. Being a black sheep. Well, it's ra , it's set the the the the topic, the study, starts off by talking about the parable er, of the er, the prodigal son, and the prodigal son was, in these terms, rescued. Because the prodigal son came back, and stopped being a black sheep, and became the accepted son, again. Well, we don't Well, we don't know. Mm. We don't know? No, we don't know. No, we don't. Might have just Might have gone off again. Ah. we doubted him. Yo you see, I I am, I am the eternal optimist, I think he came back and stayed. The eternal pessimist would think that he came back and nipped off again, you see. As a general point, it's er, a mistake, I think to take the parables. Mm. and the gospels and pushed them too far. Usually they expect to, er or Yes. thought or expect to demonstrate one point Mm. Mm. Mm. Erm, the, the, yes, and it and it demonstrates a point, and er you it's, it's dangerous beyond, to go beyond there, yes, yeah, yeah. Unnatural. I don't think it, I don't think I intended it to be morbid. Erm, I I honestly though, oh yes I can, I think I can think of a black sheep. Er, it just occurred to my family. Again, I think it's a change of mores. Erm, I have I think cousin, erm, who was in the Air Force during the war, and came back from the Air Force with a child. I think in fact she had to leave the Air Force because she had a child. Mm. Er, it transpired afterwards that the man she had married, was not the father of the child. Now, she she was the black sheep of the family. Mm. Er, people went into corners and talked about her. I don't think she remains I don't think she remains the black sheep of the family because at attitudes have changed. Yes. Yeah, yeah. But there was a time when she was a sort of pariah. Yes. Erm, and you know, let's face it, I didn't have to go through the circumstances that they went through in the war, and there therefore, who who am I to judge Yeah. what did, or did not happen at that time. Er, but certainly,the there was in, as I say, in my family, there was this, there was, well I mean, I think perhaps, she would be described as a black sheep. Yes, oh she would. Erm, in those days, but I doubt if now, anybody would Bother. Bother about, no. Nobody I tell you this today, they would be a queue to marry her, because she would get a hundred thousand pound for Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, indeed, and we have one last. And a One last question to to think about, then. Can we lessen the number of family black sheep and still maintain the spice of difference. Why is it that the black sheep of the family is often the most likeable. Yeah, that's what I was going to say. Yeah, yeah. Yes, yes. I think it's it's this this idea, that it's alright to go so far, it's when you go over the top. Erm, it's it's alright being a naughty boy, it's quite accepted that you are, I'm using the the the masculine, because I can speak from a male point of view, I suppose. It's alright being the naughty boy, in various senses, but if you go over the top, and you you are no longer just naughty, but even worse. It's alright as a man if you do certain things, oh, he's a bit of a lad. Mm. Yeah. Mm. We tend to say that, or used to say that. Yes, Jack the Lad. Yeah. Jack the Lad. But then when it goes just a little bit further. Then there is a cessation of acceptance and suddenly there is, er almost revulsion that steps in. Mm. Mm. Erm, and it can, it can happen overnight, can't it, from some someone is er, he's he's he's a bit of the one with the ladies. That is probably quite acceptable. yeah. Yeah. Well,use it certainly used to be. But you go beyond that and it is not acceptable. No, it's Being found out. Being found out is the It was alright to come to your marriage, having been a bit of a one for the girls, but it wasn't at all good to come to your marriage having been a bit of a one with the lads. Absolutely, yes, yes. Not not quite a law for the rich and law for the poor, No. but, but certainly, yes, yes. yes indeed, yes indeed. As a general principle, I'm I'm always rather attracted, depends, of course on your outlook, on St Augustine's dictum, he that you loved God did what you like. Mm. But that of course, only works, if you are a particular Yes, yes. How. Any, any closing comments now, before we, stop and have a cup of tea. are you gonna round this off. It just occurred to me that I don't how many children Mr and Mrs Thomas had, but the only one who's remembered is Dylan. Yes, Yes, indeed, yes, yes, yes, yes, yeah. And he he he he was perhaps the black sheep. He was perhaps the black sheep. Black wool sheep. The erm session this morning Erm to try to say other than the district council and that is the council What I'd like from If we take for example the low figure thirty one K, the county figure and the H B F figure of . What is the for example. I think it should be addressed sir that your amplification is nonexistent . Did you miss the question? I just heard . chairman shall I put my head on head on the block . Margaret , Department of the Environment. Erm I have to say that that these are largely my personal views of the member of the regional office, rather than obviously the Secretary of State at this stage in the proceedings. But I think if you went for the figure as proposed by the H B F, you would be going actively against the regeneration statutory which is the erm the government's policy. If you look at the strategic guidance for West and South Yorkshire, and I fully admit that we still have to see the erm the colour of regional guidance. But the strategic guidance for those two counties very firmly puts economic regeneration at the head of the list of objectives. I think if you let development rip for the want of a better word in North Yorkshire, as I suggest the House Builders Federation would do, then it would be active acting against the regeneration strategy. As for the figure proposed erm by Samuel Smith's representative. I think probably that is at completely the other end of the spectrum, and would be stifling the natural growth in North Yorkshire and what you would be doing then is is acting against the erm the inhab the existing inhabitant of North Yorkshire because you would probably be forcing them out of their county. I would therefore go for as you well know in our figure, somewhere around the middle line. Do you difference between your figure and that of the County Council is critical in in anyway? I think our figure gives a rather more measure of flexibility than does that of the County Council. Setting aside the exact figures chair, I think Leeds position is that left late at the goalposts set down by R P G two, erm our members are the City Council's grasped the mettle of accommodating the level of accommodation that that implies. It would make very significant incursions into our much against our wishes, to accommodate that, so that we would be looking to North Yorkshire to and work to the same levels of migration, the trend in migration as it were. Obviously a figure higher than that would take some pressure of us to make those incursions into the green belt, a lower figure conversely would require us to make higher la larger incursions into our greenbelt. So we're looking for North Yorkshire to play to the same rules basically. You you have already erm done it going into the greenbelt. Am I right in thinking that you wouldn't want to go on with these incursions ? That's right, our position is that we've already erm adversely affected our environment if you like as and the balanced er approach respectively needs to meet housing requirements. Erm but we've gone as far as we feel we need to. Erm other people should have to make the same sacrifices. But what are you saying about ? I'm not making any comment on specific figures. I'd like you to Well I can I decline the invitation. I I don't have a an answer an arithmetic answer. I think a figure was quoted earlier, I haven' read the of the with migration estimate for North Yorkshire. With that was a hundred percent a hundred percent migration . K was the figure. Right. Which is very similar to your colleague on the right.. Well a all I'm saying chair is that the principle of the calculation is is what I'm pleading on behalf on behalf of the City Council to be met. Mr . Er yes, Bill , Bradford Council. Erm Bradford and Leeds have er adopted a similar approach in their representations to er yourselves and certainly er I did not come here to take a er a part in the debate over specific figures. Er we er accepted the County Councils er sets of figures where we took issue with them is erm the failure to take account of one hundred percent inward migration trends. Not what that figure is or or what period it would be. But that percentage figure. Erm er on that basis erm we would and and even allowing for even allowing for a dense movement from Bradford to North Yorkshire, erm we as it said in our statements, are happy that that movement will not hinder urban regeneration in the urban area of the Bradford Metropolitan district. We refer too er in our statement er an absolute release figure of hectares in the greenbelt, and that is a percentage of our new housing allocations. In addition to that, it might interest you to know that er in excess of a further one hundred and sixty hectares of land is in our U D deposit version, U D P proposed to be released on greenfield sites on the edge of the built up areas. And that is in excess of fifty percent of the new housing allocation. Erm we in our recommendation to you have suggested a figure of forty six thousand, two hundred. Which is would give you County Council. Er su suffice We didn't want to get into too much of a discussion about numbers. If you the trends then er going on to the going on to the House Builders Federation figures, that would not cause us to release more land within the greenbelt, as would the lower figure of the County Council, based on seventy five percent inward migration. And by implication, the thirty nine thousand figure. Erm certainly the low figure would cause us tremendous problems er environmental problems of our own. Erm forty six thousand figure we feel is acceptable in that we still have to make environmental releases in the greenbelt, but erm the net outward movement would not hinder our urban regeneration. Erm the higher figure would obviously lead to bring into question something that er Miss has mentioned about er urban regeneration. Erm I think erm both the low and the high figures would cause us problems, and that is why we have have accepted the County Council's figures based on continuation of past trends, migration trends, which as my colleague from Leeds has pointed out earlier we are obliged to do and are continuing to do in following from R P G two in our depopulation of the . I think it maybe has to be said that we we picked these figures, not because we wanted to talk about the figures, but simply to use them as for you to hang on to. Mr . Yes, Roy , House Builders Federation. Erm naturally enough you wouldn't expect me to agree with Miss that erm the figures that we've put forward are against the regeneration strategy. It's certainly true, I don't think that we're letting development rip. However erm one thing I think that's got to be borne in mind and it picks up a point that erm Leeds have made, is that they're looking towards trendy migration, they say. With their balance of things. It has to be said that the current U D P of Leeds makes er an a an allowance of migration of net out migration of just over about nine thousand three hundred per five year period. That's embodied within the plan. If you look at the revised mid-year estimate, the figure there if we're keeping things in balance between county and and Leeds, is six thousand two hundred and fifty, net out migration. So there's if we're keeping things in balance, there's three thousand people per five year period, got to go somewhere. Now if on the same basis, you at the same time reduce the amount that the county's taking in, that exacerbates that particular group. And indeed I would submit that Leeds would find it difficult to actually accommodate the migration assumption which is w would be implied by sticking to the revised plan, mid-year estimate figure. I think that they would find it quite difficult to actually do that er without very many incursions into the greenbelt. Bradford, the position is not quite so stark. But nevertheless, they're very much as I see it, on the border. Er and the their U D P's just on deposit so got to go into it in a bit more detail yet. But it would seem to me that er there may be a marginal undersupply in Bradford on the basis of the current U D P and that is assuming that we we have the same balance between Bradford and between North Yorkshire as I am implying from my my particular figures. Erm I see nothing in the current Bradford U D P which suggests that they aren't erm majoring on urban regeneration, that they're doing they're doing exactly that. And so I would say that the whole thing, the figures that I'm proposing, er and the consequences for both Leeds and Bradford er would be in fact to maintain a balanced strategy for urban regeneration. And it does seem to me that erm I can't quite understand why it's possible or it seems to be an argument that you can accommodate a bit more development, squash a bit development into Leeds and Bradford and it doesn't matter very much. But you can not accommodate more development in North Yorkshire. those two things to me don't seem to be compatible. Certainly I think we're in very great danger of Leeds Bradford, if we start pushing things a great deal more. Erm it is part of our strategy of course erm that we are not er pursuing a hundred percent migration. So we are assuming a little bit more Bradford and Leeds but not erm la particularly large amounts. Do you do you want to comment on the lowest figure? Well the lowest figure, erm we've already got a level of commitment, we have to have three thousand de-allocations if that was the case, that does not seem to me to be correct. No. What happens to the housing market people if ? Erm that that I think relates to I think there are two important points t to make here in relation to forty one thousand. Erm I I said some the this this morning that in fact I think there would be serious affordable hou affordable housing problems er associated with that figure. And I think also we shouldn't overlook the em employment in Leeds that would be related to that. Not only employment in terms of the relationship between proposed industrial allocations and housing allocations, but the purest employment er problems of the construction industry as well. It's interesting that no no other than Tony M P Secretary of State, speaking at the conference, Building on Success, said that the erm construction industry accounts for a tenth of our National G D P. Er the industry is responsible for half our fixed investment and accounts for a third of our manufacturing base. It is therefore a critical component of our national economy and its good health is essential to our recovery from the downturn. I will take it from that that you play with it at this stage er of a recovery. Erm and erm I don't think that on the to go on about affordable housing as I did this morning, I don't think that in fact the affordable housing targets which the different authorities have and although I've only quoted four authorities I think, I think the other ones will be very much the same. I don't think that erm it will be possible to meet those affordable targets on the lower numbers. That simply people will miss out. They are not the only people who'll miss out, there'll be people at the lower end of the housing market who could afford to buy. Well if you take the the figures that It depends where they are to some extent. I'm sorry Yeah. On the affordable housing front? Or any other front. Any ot any other front. A on on on on the general issue,. But erm er on on on the figures that I've I've submitted, erm we've already got three of those five districts have got s fairly high affordable housing percentage requirements. And with Ryedale still at thirty eight percent, these are on my figures. Scarborough twenty one percent, probably getting towards okay. And York at twenty five percent. So meeting halfway, meeting that halfway house figure I think, erm would only seek to push up those figures. And you would only you you Yes you'd meet more of the affordable requirement no doubt, than you would at the lower figures, but in my view, you'd still be left with some fairly substantial problems in particular areas. What housing effects of the housing market ? You concentrated on ? Well in in in in in in some ways erm I've I've I've covered er some some of that point by referring to the to the importance of the construction industry. We have been and some would still have us believe, I think it's true, we're not out of the woods yet as far as er er recovery of the housing market is concerned. Er we've been in the longest recession in the housing market I think in memory. I think if not ever. Erm and there is still a need to supply houses to meet the needs of household formation. In the meanwhile while houses have not been built, people still go on forming households. And there is out there I'm very sure, a great un-met demand. Erm and if there is an undersupply, a serious undersupply, then sections of the market are bound to miss out. Erm whether whether that's just affordable or or whatever. And the ma market will become targeted to particular sectors and particular groups. And one effect of the recession has been, I've got to say, that a lot of the old that er house-builders have operated on, which are good for selling, which sites will sell well, etcetera a lot of those rules have been out of the window. There's a great air of uncertainty and erm we have to be very cautious about proposing housing numbers which mean there'll be very few new sites , which will be the implication of forty one thousand two hundred. There'll be very very few new sites being formed, the inevitable consequence of that will be to push land prices up. Land prices are already rising at the moment er in this region, even though house prices are not rising at a commensurate level. And so that will have its effect in the fullness of time. And certainly if you keep housing numbers in short supply, the only effect will be to push land prices even higher. Thank you sir, Stephen from . I think our view of the effects of numbers significantly lower than the ones that we've put to you, is first of all that there are a number of factors which planning cannot influence and will not influence. And I would include in those, the vacancy issue that we discussed this morning, so there will be more vacant dwellings whether it's a percent of thirty thousand or fifty thousand. There is the improvement in mortality. I don't think planning has any influence or would wish to have any influence on that. There is the tendency towards higher headship rates and more household formation. And I don't think planning will have much influence on that. So with one proviso, I would say that that households will form whatever number of dwellings you write into the structure plan, those households will form in North Yorkshire. So if they don't have sufficient dwellings to meet the requirements, two things and I would expect them both two things, would happen. First of all, and I put this purely in order of er semantics rather than priority. First of all I don't think local needs would be fully met, as you know I think very often the migrants are able to outbid local households in the market, so I don't think local needs will be fully met. and indeed in terms of the low figure of of of thirty one thousand it it's statistically conceivable that no local needs would be met. But I think the way that that would occur would be first of all I would expect to see an increase, a steeper increase than is already project I should say in concealed households. I would also expect to see as a result of local shortages, more sharing of dwellings, by households who have formed not the same of concealed households who haven't succeeded in . And I should say on that topic that we looked prior to this E I P at the implications for sharing of the paper that er Miss put before you in her personal capacity. And our best interpretation as far as we could tell from that of course that was that the implied increase in sharing, because sh assumes that households with dwelling was about between four and five times the present sorry nineteen ninety one level share in the county. And to give you a measure of what that would mean, it would be a return to the conditions of the late forties, early fifties as regards sharing in North Yorkshire is concerned. So there is a very considerable backward step. And that will be one of the implication lower figures. But that local needs heading is one heading, the other heading which I think would be unavoidable is erm on migration. I would expect to see the lower figures resulting in as indeed they themselves imply,lower migration movements to North Yorkshire and indeed I think the figures from er might end up by the end of the period as net outward movement from North Yorkshire to be achieved, given the level of commitments we have up front. And if we look at the implications er West Yorkshire which were touched on in the beginning of this part of the debate. It seems to me unavoidable that one of the consequences would be to take more greenbelt land in West Yorkshire. And in that sense the choice at this E I P is whether to use greenbelt in West Yorkshire, or non-greenbelt in North Yorkshire. And I think to an extent those two are two ends of the seesaw and is a straight er choice that has to be made. You'll not be surprised to find that in terms of national policy, I would have thought that was very clear if you were given that choice, what the policy should be. I'm not aware that it's national policy that greenbelt should be used for the sake of urban regeneration. I think that I would see the consequences of the lower figures as being twofold. Severe impact on local need, and also substantial impact on migration, with particular in West Yorkshire. Erm s s several points I'd like to make. Er it's been suggested by Mr from the H B F that as I understand his suggestion, that a lower provision of housing land in some way affects affordability or affects the er access to housing for the lower se lower ends of the lower income households. Erm there is no evidence Well I've seen no evidence, first of all to substantiate that claim, and in my opinion, all the evidence suggests that the key determinant of house prices and therefore land prices is the ration of income to the price of the property. And in fact housing is more affordable now, than it has been for twenty five or thirty years. When we are in as Mr himself agrees, the worst housing recession probably this this century. So I would seriously question that you can make the sort of relationship that is suggested here, between affordability and increasing the numbers. I don't think the link is proven and I would certainly like to see evidence to substantiate that suggestion. Getting back to the numbers, Mr says that if the number suggested by ourselves, through our client of thirty one K were er adhered to that it may well reduce the ability completely of locals to gain access to the housing market. Well I think the figures agree that the requirement for local need is sixteen thousand five hundred, about half the thirty one K suggestion. And again there is a suggestion put forward to support this theory that local people won't have access to housing, and the suggestion is that ou that migrants have the ability to outbid locals. Well I have no see no evidence for that suggestion,and I think if the panel are going to accept this suggestion, then evidence or some some sort of information should be put forward to to to to back it, because I don't accept that it's it's necessarily the case. Erm the the beginning and the end of this argument is about migration. There is enough land to provide for local needs, more than twice enough. It's about pr p provision for migration and what the policy should be for that. And that brings me to the point that was made er by Mr and others on the other side of the table, that the structure plan does have a policy of a continued reduction in migration. That is a policy of the approved structure plan. We're not talking about reviewing the structure plan, we're talking about an alteration to it. And there is no s support round the table so far for the H B F figure of fifty three K. As I understand the Leeds position, they want what they call a lev a level playing field, or to be aiming at the same goalposts that they've been aiming at for the last number of years. But that would only support forty six thousand two hundred. Which is the North Yorkshire structure plan unconstrained figure. So with those erm policy points and those questions about the ab ability of migrants to outbid locals, and the ac housing access issue, I would erm suggest that if they're to be accepted by the panel, then more information is . What do you feel indicates the County Council's proposals. Erm the figure the County Council have proposed in my opinion, doesn't achieve a sufficient level of reduction. It goes in the right direction in so far as it does aim to re to continue to reduction in migration, but it doesn't go far enough. And I take the view that the Unity Development Plans for Leeds and Bradford do tend to me to suggest that there is the ability to meet an increasing amount of need in within their own areas and that that should be reflected in a continually reducing er export if I can call it that, to North Yorkshire, and this morning we heard from Cleveland that Cleveland are making gallant efforts to er to er retain their economic er viability by retaining their population. So I would say that the North Yorkshire er figure in summary, goes in the right direction but not far enough. What is it that happens on the ground that in your view makes it not far enough? The release of green fields in Yorkshire for urbanization, when that l that housing could be provided by urban regeneration in the adjoining metropolitan areas. And to my mind that is a fundamentally flawed planning strategy. The release the release of green fields should only happen when there is no other solution. And here we have a county which is taking sixty percent of its housing requirement from outside its boundaries. When I am not convinced that those er the areas outside those boundaries which are in dire need of urban regeneration, could not accommodate a greater proportion over over the planned period. Bearing in mind, bearing bearing in mind Mr 's assessment of , how do you assess the realistic chance of actually . I don't think you I don't think you will be able to stop at that figure, I think that the allocation should stop at that figure, but there will be windfalls and there will be other er recycling of land that will take place that isn't already allocated. And it comes back to my point about the allocation of green fields and the there should be no more of that because there's already enough allocated. But I wouldn't for one moment suggest to the panel that windfalls and recycling of land shouldn't continue to take place. But if you recycle land already used by housing, you don't necessarily get any more or any fewer dwellings. Yes but you tend not to get recycling of housing land of housing, you tend to get recycling of housing land, new housing land from outworn industries, nonconforming use, that type of erm recycling is just what I had in mind. And that's what tends to happen. It's it's unusual these days bearing in mind the the government advice on planning policies for existing housing to be redeveloped. Unless of course it's er high rise housing housing in in in urban areas and of course in that in those scenarios you do get a big reductions in the number of . pitched at twenty one thousand, could . Means that provision has to be . No because section fifty four A and all section fifty four A says is that a decision should be made on a planning application, in accordance with the development plan. If the development plan said, Thou shalt not develop that green field, if it was not allocated in the development plan, then section fifty four A would er would work very well. Erm and of course section fifty four A does admit or taking into considera taking into account other material considerations. Erm for example, I have been involved in a site in North Yorkshire, er where it is proposed to build a hundred and sixty houses in Tadcaster. And the provision for the county is well over the allocations in the structure plan already, but the County Council, sent observations to the District Council to say, We're not going to object to this particular er windfall site coming forward for a hundred and sixty houses, because it's recycling existing urban land, and in that case we can set the policy to one side. So there is the ability to set policy to one side of the circumstances dictate. Sorry could you that again? What do you think that does for ? I think the credibility of the planning system is enhanced by the fact that decisions can be made on individual circumstances. That policy isn't a straitjacket. It's plann i Planning is now policy led yes, but but but er planning isn't a slave to policy. If policy can be set to one side then it is set to one side and I think it enhances the reputation of of the system. , Michael and Partners. I think my first point is that the answer to your question depends to some extent on what population what demographic forecasts prove to be most likely. Because the f the county's forty one thousand figure I I'll give you a different answer on th on the effect of that if the H B F's forecasts are the most accurate,. So it's I'm taking the the question in that light. If the bottom end of the population projections are implemented in terms of planning requirement. if the planning if if the requirements fall much below the demographic requirements, the implication is that migration could be controlled but it may be controlled by a mechanism which I don't think anybody really wants and that's by stimulating out migration in North Yorkshire. Because you are talking about net migration flows. To increase out migration will selectively erm encourage those people least able to compete probably the the the the younger section, the seventeen to twenty ei twenty four year age group which we already know are there's a net out migration flow. We'd encourage those to leave the county. Obviously the housing requirements should not be such as to generate harm to environmental interests. We've heard in introduction Mr Mr say that the County Council would not like to see housing requirements any lower than they have proposed. I take I take that to be that that is the bottom end of a of a range. Cos I I think there must be a range. The question of the relationship with other areas in the adjoining counties. I think that is more a question of distribution within districts than overall district levels. Harrogate and Hambleton for instance are large districts, they extend many miles from North to South, development concentrated around the metropolitan areas will draw out commuters. But there is a strict limit to the distance, well not a strict limit but commuting is sensitive to distance. So annotations in Central and Southern Hambleton would not have an effect on Cleveland. The in fact looking at Hambleton's figures, one can see that it's only really it's only really the top North West, I'm sorry the top North East. Erm Stoakesly, Hunten, Rugby area that does prove attractive to to communities. And I don't think the I don't think the the overall scale of that issue is one which needs to reduce the strategic requirement on Hambleton. That can be dealt with at a local plan level by distribution within the district. The same applies much to Harrogate as well. You're effectively saying that Yes. Mr . Yes thank you sir. Er just a points er I think it it you probably had this point clear in your mind anyway but there are different rules that apply as between West Yorkshire and Cleveland. North Yorkshire. One area's in in need of urban regeneration and pressing for growth, and one area's subject to a policy of restraint. So I don't think it's a case of geese and ganders, I think it's a case of distinguishing between the different strategic policies that apply. Erm I think this whole issue is going to boil down to the your assumptions on migration. If one goes to answer your question, to the top end of the range being put before you, the effect will be to release probably more than a thousand acres of greenfield land er for housing development purposes. And that I would suggest is not a policy that's consistent er for that with tempered restraint. Erm you will also in going for the higher end of the range, er be prejudicing the urban regeneration objectives of those neighbouring districts. Erm there are two further points that commit discussion just taking place. And one is about the effect of the reduction of a s the migration assumptions. It clearly will not take immediate effect, there is a lot of housing allocations and permissions in the pipeline as it were, so it will take some while for it to wash through the system. Er my final point sir is concern with perhaps a few emotional points being made to my right about the old and the infirm and the young not being able to afford houses. Erm this County Council is proposing to allocate significantly more housing for in migrants than for local needs. Er which in my view is quite a rarity. Erm there are other policies in any event which one can use at local and structure plan level to secure social housing provision if it's required. But I would also like to pick up the point that Mr said, there is no evidence to suggest there's a massive problem of the local residents of North Yorkshire er not being able to compete with people in other counties to the North and to the West. Er there's with no evidence of an oversupply, my suggestion is that the decision you must be taking is to what degree do you assume er to what degree do you er recommend a reduction in migration rates. And I would suggest sir that somewhere between the lower end of the figures cooked on my left here and the County Council's figures. So I feel the County Council haven't sufficient reflected in their assumption on migration rates, the degree of reductions required to to obtain that balance between er preserving their strategic policies of restraint and respecting erm the urban regeneration policies in neighbouring areas. Can I the H B F . H B F's assessment that there are about thirty one thousand dwellings already committed in one way or another in the system. I haven't looked at the details of those figures, but are there predominantly be provided in the first ten years of the structure plan. The implication of any figure, indeed the County Council's figure for the last five years of the structure plan, could be characterized as putting the brakes on so hard, that the passengers all fall off the train. I'm being provocative. Mr , is that not the case. I think probably the County Council are in a better position than me er to to advise you as to whether that thirty one thousand commitment figure is true of not, but if it were the case, then I think, Yes I would agree that erm the train would stop very quickly, and in view of the situation that we're now in, there would have to be a degree of future flexibility to allow for phased reduction in development over future years. But I do not believe that one goes as far as going to the figure that the County Council is proposing. I would like to have a check of that commitments figure. Er the County Council's given us a figure of roughly about twenty five, twenty six thousand. Well I mean That still puts the brakes on pretty hard doesn't it, if you stick it in a figure less than thirty one thousand in the last five years. Well it's a question of balance I I the forty one thousand figure in my view should come down by a few thousand to reflect constraints in specific areas, I won't go into that now cos it's a separate discussion later on. But I believe the figure should be erm a few thousand below erm the forty one thousand and to that extent I would agree with you that in practical terms erm it's going to be very difficult even if the figure is twenty five, twenty six thousand, to stick to thirty one. But there is a question there is a p another point here that having got to the position we're in, erm does it How much are we going to be affected by the extent of the commitments? How much are we going to e judging what the true policy should be and how much are we going to be affected by those commitments figures? Erm if the if the figure were for example forty one thousand, er would you still say that there should we'd be putting the brakes on the train on too hard? I let's say there are forty five thousand yet the figures are forty one thousand, well where does one stop. How far are we going to be driven by commitments. I interpret commitments as being inescapable and therefore they're going to happen. I think the question remains or that my doubts remain that there will be a level of there will that one can assume a level of commitments which would be it would be sensible to try and draw back from or phase over a longer period of time. It may not be possible to phase Mm. Well I have taken your point I think thirty one thousand's too is too small. Mr do you want to come in at this stage ? Peter , North Yorkshire County Council. I think the position on residential land supply in the county is set out in er N Y four, paragraphs thirty five to thirty seven. And in general terms they're something of the order of twenty five and a half thousand swellings committed to development in the county, together with three and a half thousand erm in in in draft local plans. Our experience generally in North Yorkshire's been over the last ten years that overall, there have been exceptions, but generally overall, there's not been a problem about local plans drying up and then allocations drying up over the period, generally. There have been problems with one or two areas but it hasn't been a a a general problem. In Paragraph thirty five er er er three, the sites allocated in adopted local plans and of course a number of those will be with us and available toward the back end erm of the local plan er program. So we're talking there for about something of the order of twenty nine thousand develop erm dwellings committed in one form or other er in North Yorkshire. Mr I think suggested that er on the basis of the level of commitment, in North Yorkshire, when he looked at the County Council's forty one thousand, that no new sites will come forward, well quite clearly that's not going to be the case, there is a substantial residue er which are going to come forward. Can I make some general comments on the three scenarios that you that you put to us. Well I was just wondering whether I could reserve that for sort of summing up Right. Certainly that that's fine . But can can I can I just come back to the point that if you were taking the lowest figure, I mean how realistic is it to assume that you could actually hold to that? Well if you're asking My interpretations on the Mm. on the the light of the commitments of which a substantial amount are act actually planning permission, and some four thousand odd will actually have been built since ninety one. Mm. Then you it'll be extremely difficult The the the County Council You don't have to do it now. Yeah. The County Council, if we're talking about Mr 's erm strategy, the County Council would have severe reservations about going down towards thirty one thousand dwellings, we've got twenty nine thousand dwellings erm already committed er I think it would create difficulties over the period that the the structure plan er would run, would create undue tension certainly in er er in settlements across North Yorkshire, on the basis of seeing an absence of land being allocated. Er I don't think thirty one thousand is a practical proposition for North Yorkshire. Though I have no instruction on that, but almost certainly that would be the view of my council. Yeah, thank you. Mr do you want to come back on that ? Er yes, Roy , House Builder's Federation. I'd just like to pick up the point that's been made twice that there's no such thing as an affordable housing problem. What was P P G three revised all about if it wasn't about er the issue of affordable housing? And no less a light than Sir George Young actually said that the provision of affordable housing is one of the challenges of the nineties, and we are serious about rising to this challenge. And very much more recently, Lord Shuttleworth who is the chairman of the rural development commission, and this he said actually on the sixteenth of November this year, said, There is a severe lack of affordable housing in the countryside which obviously doesn't improve the situation. The biggest problem tends to be with young people, they will either go to live with someone else, or move from the countryside altogether. Now there we have some fairly eminent people recognizing that there is such a thing as an affordable housing problem. Yes houses have never been so affordable, but confidence equally, has never been so low. And in this particular county one has only got to look to Ryedale who s I so far as I know is the only authority to have carried out a comprehensive survey of local housing needs. And there they have identified after commitments, some five hundred affordable housing requirements. That's taking away all the commitments. Now it seems to me obvious that there is such a problem, er and to deny it seems to me to be to be denying the obvious. Erm the planning system, as now conceived works it's it's intended as far as I am aware, to work on the basis of certainty. If we have such a low requirement that it can be met from windfalls, small sites and recycling land above commitments, then that is not certainty, that is uncertainty and that is not in my estimation the basis on which the planning system is meant to operate on, so that people can invest with confidence. Mr ? Yes thanks, Stephen ,. Brief comment. It seems to me from what Mr in particular said, that the bottom as it were has dropped out of the market to this extent that it seems that the policy that he's advocating, is not thirty one thousand any more, but thirty one thousand plus any amount of windfalls and recycling. And a somewhat open ended number. But I would caution you lest you be tempted to take that up, against putting forward any number whatever it be, and saying that er windfalls and recycling shouldn't count against that number but should be regarded as a a bonus. I and I daresay others round this table, have experience of other counties who've adopted that approach, or other panels who've adopted that approach and it creates endless problems and endless appeals debating what is a windfall and what should be in the plan and what should be not. But if Mr 's argument is that windfalls and recycled land are as it were free of any environmental penalties and can be added to his thirty one thousand, then I think that er the way to treat that is to come to a higher number which takes them properly into account. Mr ? Erm to deal with Mr 's point about denying a problem of affordable housing, I think er he mustn't have heard what I said properly, because I've never sought to deny that there's a ho a problem of access to housing. There is a problem of access to affordable housing, all I'm saying is that you don't solve it by wholesale allocation of land. You don't solve one problem by creating another. The the as Mr er said, the way to solve the access to housing problem, is through the planning er through local plans and through affordable housing policies which are now enshrined in P P G three, and can deal with that problem quite satisfactorily. So I don't deny a an an access to housin or an affordable housing problem, quite the contrary, but I say it is a policy which is a it is a problem capable of solution by local plan policy, not by wholesale allocation of land as he advocates. Miss ? If I could just make a point about affordable housing chairman, of course the department recognizes that there is a problem of affordable housing as evidenced by minister's statements but the view of my policy colleagues in headquarters is that this is most appropriately addresses in district wide plans and not necessarily at structure plan level. Sorry. Can I go back to what Miss has just said? Surely that's in terms of where and how it is provided. Whereas what we're talking about in the structure plan is how much housing in total, of which affordable housing will form a greater or lesser part. That's right, but we would expect it to be subsumed in the numbers of overall requirements for housing. Yeah. Do you want to comment on what five thousand less than your figure would do for affordable housing ? I think as I said before, it would lessen the erm the measure of flexibility. Exactly which way it would affect it, whether it would be affordable housing or any other sort of housing is a matter for debate. Mr , sorry I you may want to comment in fact about the relationship of these figures and the emerging policy in Cleveland. Mr Chairman I feel a bit like an aircraft that's to come down to Leeds er er Bradford Airport rather than Teeside at the present moment. Er I think most of the problem is probably in the Leeds, Bradford er Harrogate area rather than our own area of Cleveland. Erm we have er approved regional planning guidance published September nineteen ninety three, which takes the allocations for Cleveland area through till two thousand and six at er fourteen thousand. We have er sufficient land available for development in Cleveland, er for eighteen thousand, two hundred and thirteen dwellings. Er we have er inherited a problem of over-forecasting perhaps in the seventies, with our first structure plans in the sense that the er employment was forecast to be much higher at that time. We have experienced quite considerable out migration er in the period since, and we do build in perhaps slightly optimistic erm migration net migration figures compared to the er O P C S er and and D O E figures but they are nevertheless accepted as part of this forecast the regional guidance, on the basis that we have a major regeneration problem in the area, to reiterate what I said this morning. Erm we are in the current process of reviewing our own or altering our own structure plan, the first alter alteration is going through consultation at the present moment and we're estimating a need within that period of of actually fifteen thousand which is marginally above the regional planning guidance. Erm looking at the figures of migration between Cleveland and North Yorkshire, I received yesterday some figures which which are quite interesting in this respect. Erm perhaps if you've got a pencil handy here. Erm the n the net movements between Cleveland and North Yorkshire as a whole have been respectively for nineteen eighty eight, four hundred and fifty five persons, for nineteen eighty nine, two hundred and twenty nine persons, er for nineteen ninety, two hundred and forty persons, nineteen ninety one, three hundred and thirty seven persons, and for nineteen ninety three, because I missed the figures for ninety two for some reason, they're not there, er five hundred and ninety nine. Erm this gives an average over say a five year period of about a hundred and forty nine dwellings per annum, if you if you divide that by the household er estimate of something like two point five household size, which is the current sort of level in Cleveland. Erm looking interestingly enough, at the Hambleton figures of I understand these are new purchases, which is a bit surprising perhaps, but over a two year period there erm this is table three in Hambleton's submission, there's a reference to the number of erm the origin of house purchases from Cleveland in Hambleton, and it would be seen from there that Cleveland erm produced a hundred and fourteen dwellings, that's purchases of Cleveland residents in the Hambleton area erm in nineteen ninety one to ninety three. That's over a two year period. And er a hundred and seventy one overall in Hambleton. Er sorry a hundred and fourteen in Stoakesly, a hundred and seventy one overall in Hambleton. Which is quite an interesting comparison to make with our own out migration figures. Erm we have er land in the sort of places which compete with Stoakesly although we don't have quite the rural environment, except as was mentioned, at Guisborough. Erm we we aim to get as much development in our area as possible and coming back to your first question this afternoon, I I don't really se any problem with the North Yorkshire proposals, that's the middle range. Erm I do see there would be problems if there's a lot of land released in the Northern part of North Yorkshire and Hambleton, in terms of our meeting our own objectives. Much of the growth that you see reflected in these figures is probably old commitments. And Hambleton are are being more restrained as I said earlier, is appropriate to our own policy. Er our only problem is that some of our housing is concentrated in rather large blocks, and that does put pressure looking for v var variety of sites in the county and we are erm getting a lot of objection for some potential development sites in our area at the present moment. But I don't see any problem, from the figures I've given you, in handling any of those forecasts really when you're talking about a very small proportion in our part of the world compared to the probably the figures that you're talking about around er Leeds, Bradford, Harrogate. I think I'll leave it at that for the moment. Yeah. Er I I know you're submission was was was very clear in in in the sense that you said that you said that the figure proposed by North Yorkshire was would create no problems. Yes. Mr Just a very brief comment, perhaps summing up the and commenting on the various contributions that we've heard so far. Erm I won't really comment on in any detail on on the forty one thousand figure because it's ours and I think we put sufficient justification in for it. Other than to say I've already mentioned er in respect of Mr 's point about his view that no new sites would come forward at forty one thousand, well quite clearly a substantial number of new sites in the residue will come forward, these will be new sites. A more general point on the forty one thousand, again from Mr and Mr , is one I will describe as the er the doomsday scenario which is usually trotted out at er er at debates such as this, erm the effects on affordable housing er and low cost housing. We heard it in nineteen eighty and we heard it again in nineteen eighty seven in pursuance of the House Builders Federation's er views. it wasn't accepted then er and we hope er that it won't be accepted now because the County Council thinks that with the level of provision for migration development, er there is sufficient flexibility within its policy. Commenting on the thirty one thousand, er Mr 's erm er scenario, that the County Council would clearly think this to be erm unreasonable, it would clearly have regional implications er as I said earlier er in my opening remarks er the County Council would accept that it wouldn't be meeting its regional commitments, erm er it would be difficult in practice bearing in mind the level erm of commitment we've got and there may well be local problems in in local housing markets with the level of er of growth er at that level. As far as the H B F's scenario's concerned, this would probably lead to an increase in the building rates above the approved plan of around about fifteen percent. Erm I think that that in the same way as if we went down too low, could be considered to be er a change of strategy and I think what we're about is to try and reflect the currently er approved structure plan strategy. Erm I think there would be environmental problems, I think there would be major problems of sustainability because quite clearly, er scale migration into North Yorkshire would be accompanied in significant past by back out er of North Yorkshire, particularly to Cleveland er and to to West Yorkshire. Mobility in North Yorkshire is increasing dramatically, has increased dramatically over the last ten years and I think there are sustainability arguments against a level erm of provision at fifty er around that level. Erm and a I think quite clearly there would be a conflict with what appears to be currently extent government policy to regenerate er the metropolitan areas of Cleveland erm and West Yorkshire. We think the forty one thousand dwellings give sufficient flexibility erm i it will ensure a substantial continuing house-building sector in North Yorkshire and I think it marries environmental requirements with er the with our wider responsibilities. Thank you very much. Mr Yeah my point is a brief one and i it's coming back to the the question of commitments that was discussed discussed earlier. Er and er the point point was r raised in relation to erm the thirty one thousand figure, that w er you're virtually at that erm commitment level already. That that seems to me to be slightly back to front as as a justification for increasing the figures. Erm in that er surely the the response to that should be well one should m more adequately er control phasing. Erm and and a point was raised in our our evidence given the existing overshoot of structure plan figures, erm the the the county county wide the figures have overshot the agreed structure plan figures, that should focus attention surely on on the need to to more closely control the release of the committed land erm er that is currently without planning permission, through the development control process. I think w w what I'd urge the panel to to consider is is perhaps looking at it from that perspective, to encourage the County Council to review the phasing provision of policy H one erm in terms of er how the the committed land is going to be released for development. Mr Sorry. Sorry pick it up. Can I ask Mr ,to clarify points that you're making is you would like H one to be phased? The there is in in policy H one as proposed at the moment, a the last sentence refers to the issue of phasing. Erm but the the point I'm making is that existing figures erm for the existing sorry the figures for the existing structure plan indicate that there's been an overshoot on agreed figures. And and that to me is indicative albeit er in a small way of a failure to adequately phase the release of land albeit that the figures I accept are are relatively small. Erm logic suggests surely that that erm one should concentrate on the adequacy of the phasing er the existing phasing mechanism, and the words within policy H one and the guidance that the county is giving to the to the district authorities, in how they should phase the release of the committed land. Erm and and I think that is I think you'll agree that's looking at the problem from s from from the other side. Er and not saying that, Well because erm twenty nine thousand er dwellings are already committed, we've therefore got to we've therefore got to provide more, because that will be eaten up fairly quickly. Er that to me suggests that one should focus attention on on the phasing mechanisms for the release of that land. I understand that's the point you're making. What I'm not clear about is whether you are suggesting that the panel, make some strong comments in their report to the County Council on the need for appropriate phasing, or whether the panel should recommend that policy H one be divided into phasing periods. Erm I think I think what I'm suggesting is that the that the the panel should should er advise the County Council as to how they should address the phasing issue. Whether that is done erm well I I I I I don't have an immediate solution as to what what the way in which you may wish to advise the the County Council on how to do that. What I'm suggesting is is that that is perhaps something that the panel should dwell on in their deliberations and their advice to to the county. So I think it it is an issue that perhaps hasn't been addressed in our discussions erm hitherto and and and seems to me from from past evidence to sugg to be an issue that does need to be to be looked at. I see my question's provoked Miss to pick up her name. not to wave it about. Erm can I ask Miss , your view on phasing the structure plan? As I'm sure you probably know better than me Miss , the department blows hot and cold on phasing. Phasing is currently an in word. Again my my personal view is that I think phasing has got a lot a lot going for it but I do not know how you could phase current commitments, because after all those those are on the table now. The wind is warm this week. Mr Thank you. Roy , House Builders Federation. Erm a few comments I'd like to start with with Cleveland and the erm the idea that there's there's there's there's no problem whatsoever in accommodating erm the overspill if I can put it that way or the retention within Cleveland. As I understand it the Cleveland structure plan proposes the same number of dwellings for erm its next period which happens to be fourteen years, as it did for the last fourteen of the of the previous structure plan, fifteen thousand seven hundred. But it's interesting that the distribution of those dwellings is very different. And on the new proposal, the distribution favours Hartlepool as opposed to Stockton-on-Tees. And erm I would suggest that additional favouring of Hartlepool will do nothing whatsoever for the relationship with with North Yorkshire. And in fact Hartlepool is much more related to to Durham than it is to er North Yorkshire. Erm Mr mentioned the issue of building rates and that the proposal by the H B F would be in excess of the building rates. Well yes, of course it would, I submit to you that building rates are in that context are are an irrelevance because erm all that building rates tell you is what's been built in the past. They don't tell you anything about what's needed in the future. I'll come back to the issue of sustainability I think under one B when we get to individual districts, but it does seem to me it's rather overstated. And then Mr then erm dismissed my concerns for affordable supply in that it had all been said before. I wasn't aware that in nineteen eighty and nineteen eighty seven, the government had the same policies it does now. And one of the features of the current policy is that affordable supply is partly a matter to be negotiated and it's very important that it's negotiated out of the general er supply made by private sector builders. The point that I've been making with the various percentages is that those negotiations will become unrealistic if on average, you're talking about forty some percent of sites having to go for affordable housing on a negotiated basis. It simply would not happen. And there will be a shortfall of that amount. Obviously some supply would would occur because housing associations will build wholly on some sites. But as a general rule there w because it has to be negotiated, it would not be er supplied. And erm so I don't think the issues of affordable supply are quite the same as they have been in the past and I think it's a very relevant consideration for this particular structure plan. Thank you Mr . And Mr has been waiting patiently. something you want to go back on? Yes chair. Dave , Leeds City. Er I wanted to come back on the question of regeneration and the opportunities in Leeds. A number of speakers have suggested that er there are vast areas of brown field sites in Leeds just waiting to have houses plonked on them. Which would relieve the need to use er so called green field sites in North Yorkshire. That's not the case. We've exhaustively surveyed Leeds time and again to find these erm so called brown field sites which our own residents suggest are there. And there just there are just not enough in suitable locations for housing, to meet the needs of Leeds. That's why we ourselves have had to take our own greenbelt land. Thank you. Mr are you going to say much the same ? just to erm reiterate the comments for Bradford To point out that er in the deposit U D P, we've been only able to allocate er approximately ten percent of our new allocations in the existing urban area. Thank you. Mr , do you want to tell us about the delights of Hartlepool No I I just want to refute the the point that was made there chairman, because er it isn't er it isn't accurate. Er out of the eighteen thousand two hundred and thirteen dwellings, three hundred and er three thousand one hundred and sixty nine are in Langbar adjoining Cle er North Yorkshire, three thousand two hundred and thirty three dwellings are in Middlesbrough adjoining North Yorkshire, and seven thousand eight hundred and thirty four dwellings are in Stockton, of which four thousand three hundred are at Ingleby which d , directly also adjoins the North Yorkshire boundary, so I I think that I must make that quite clear that the majority of these dwellings provided for in the Cleveland structure plan are erm comparable in terms of er the that area. The only difference is that I suppose er at we have er which is development in North Stockton, we have er erm permission for four hundred erm executive dwellings which is the sort of er market which you could have been looking for at in the past. And we are making provision for executive housing in our area as well as erm er outside the area. In a sense . So effectively what you're saying is a sizable proportion of your proposals are South of the Tees. That's correct. Right. And talking of tea Can we resume at three thirty please. sentence please. Now unless anybody's got a burning desire to pursue the question which I posed at two o'clock, and from my point of view I think we tested it to destruction. Er I'd like to go for some little light relief at this time of the day, and look at sources of supply. Now I I think I would like to ask the county to come in and deal with this question of how much of their forty one thousand two hundred is new build and how much is gonna be taken up or provided by the conversion . Mr ? Malcolm , County Council. I think I'd refer to our paper N Y four, in particular the paragraphs, thirty five to and including thirty seven. Which does indicate that something of the order of twenty five and a half thousand dwellings already committed through completions, outstanding planning permissions and local plan alteration in adopted local plans. Right. And that in addition some three and a half thousand dwellings are contained in draft local plans which have yet to be tested through the the local plan process. Of the remainder which is what Simon er twelve thousand dwellings, the County Council has made no specific on what proportion will be provided through conversions or through windfall sites or small sites. And in the County Council's view this is a matter to be resolved by the district councils in their own plans. The County Council does not have sufficient detailed information on the situation at the local level to be able to comment specifically on individual districts. On the the situation erm in relation to these factors. Can I pursue that Mr please? And you referred to two sorts of allocations, one, those in adopted local plans and the figure was if you could remind me please. Fifteen hundred dwellings. The time scale of those local plans is what please? To ninety six. None of them go beyond nineteen ninety six? No because the structure plan itself as approved only goes to nineteen ninety six. And the time scale of the three point five K? Mostly again to ninety six, although erm some do go beyond. So that in total you're saying twenty nine thousand dwellings, one way or another are committed before nineteen ninety six. Well, in so far as they have planning permission or allocated local plans. Exactly what extent they could be taken up in the period to ninety six, is not necessarily erm clear because we we don't know exactly when those are going to be taken up. That is true, but if somebody applied for planning permission tomorrow or a or a renewal of planning permission, it would be difficult if not impossible to refuse permission for those to be committed . absolutely but that isn't quite the same as actually having been taken up and developed up to ninety six. And in fact the evidence suggests I that in the three years remaining till ninety six, it is most unlikely that those twenty five thousand dwellings will be developed, given the alteration at the present time. Indeed. Thank you. Well as I as I read it the Co you haven't made any allowance for conversions, you've made an assumption that part of the housing figure will be met by conversions. That is correct sir. But you don't wish to put a figure on it. No because I think that is a matter for the local planning authorities in their their local district wide local plans to look at the the way in which they wish to meet the particular totals for their individual districts. They will have a better understanding within their district of the the supply of site property that can be is available for conversion. And local factors which may affect future conversion rates. We do have information on the extent to which net conversions have been provided over the past well during the eighty one ninety Yes I mean I acknowledge that that is rightly a matter for investigation establishment through the local plan system. But nevertheless, how far can you go along towards giving certainty to for example the building industry on the amount of new housing which would come from green field sites for Sorry from the non- conversion element. Well I think the the overall housing figures which were contained in the approved structure plan, made up of a range of sites and allocations. They're made up of small sites, they're made up of windfall sites. The approved structure plan doesn't provide any indication of the way in which that can be broken down. Erm by including conversions this time round I don't see there's any particular difference, we are giving the district a global figure for their districts, which they will then need to look at in the light of local circumstances. I don't see any necessarily any difference by including conversions this time round. If we look at the summary table P S O two,and sticking column two, gives us annual average building rates for nineteen eighty one, ninety three. Our interpretations of that figure excludes any dwellings provided by conversions. But you said, a moment ago that you had some evidence on this. Do you have any idea what the average annual rate is for this? Of conversions? Yeah. Well it is included in in my form. It's part of the appendices . Erm appendix What does it come out at please? Appendix five, the average is three hundred dwellings a year or thereabouts. And is that three hundred included within that figure of two thousand eight hundred and eighty two? Erm Those are those are new build dwellings? Right I'll have to check back against all the figures, if you can just give me a moment. I'll just have to check back I've seen the table in this particular format. It is your figure. Is it? Yes. The two eight eight two yes. Where is the figure taken from? Er the most column G N Y four, appendix three, column average building rates. It excludes conversions. Yes that excludes conversions. Thank you. So that the annual average rate of provision of dwellings in North Yorkshire is something like three thousand one hundred and eighty two dwellings. Including conversions. Including conversions. Thank you. And you wouldn't wish to hazard a guess at all on on the likely contributions co conversions between now and the year two thousand and six. This is something just to absolutely specific about it, which will actually arise out of the work done by the district councils in their local plans. And come up Yes. Coming up with their best estimate. Yes I think they have the the best information to be able to make that decision at a local level. Thank you. Mr ? Sir, a small point in the same vein Stephen ,. I have taken understanding how if the County Council don't have any view on the level of conversions in the future and as I think Mr said also this will extend to small sites and green field developments, how they assess the environmental impact of their figure or indeed anybody's figure, because clearly the environmental impact of conversions is very different from the environmental impact of either recycled urban land or green field development. And if in the County Council's view, they're all equally interchangeable and the anybody, then I fail to see how they can have come to a a view that the maximum acceptable environmental figure is their forty one thousand. Quite Malcolm , County Council. Quite clearly, while I'm not prepared to put a a figure on the contribution that conversions are going to make to the period to two thousand and six, I'll be most surprised if it was a long way different from what has been taking place in the past. We're not talking of a conversion of ten to fifteen thousand dwellings with erm new building being reduced considerably, we are talking something in the order of magnitude of what has been happening in the past. To what extent that will be modified by by the changes in local circumstances, I cannot say. If if we pursued there erm tell me whether I get my arithmetic wrong, er we assume at most three hundred a year from conversions. it's unlikely to be more than that. You don't know. But but let's for the sake It it might It might be more let's for the sake of the discussion assume it's about three hundred a year, then you're looking at another three thousand nine hundred during the remainder of the plan period. For the remainder of the plan period. Or three thousand six hundred. That's right. Which on the basis of commitment, twenty nine thousand, leaves an outstanding figure of just over twelve thousand. No because the figure I quoted did include outstanding planning permissions for conversions. So how many how many how many conversions are there within that ? If you just give me er a moment to check my . About two thousand nine hundred dwellings. Two thousand nine hundred. Yeah. So alright, for the sake of again discussion, we'll say that probably about another thousand might come forward. Although it could be more. Indeed yes, it could be less. It could be more. Erm and if it is more, then the amount coming from new build, Mm. is probably of the order of about ten thousand, eleven thousand at best. Well of that order yes. In addition to the sites that are already allocated or committed. Yes. Mr . Yes thank you. Just on the conversions point,th there will clearly be at the end of the plan period, an outstanding balance of conversion permissions erm which will not be built during the plan period, just as there are two thousand nine hundred er which come back from previous to the well not automatically previous to the plan period, but previous to the position we're in now. Erm I can't see sir, how the districts would be in a better position that the council and the County Council to decide what the conversion element would be. One doesn't allocate the conversions in local plans. The best thing one could do I think is to go back to past trends. And those past trends show about three hundred a year. And I would not suggest that total of three hundred times thirteen should be reduced by the amount of the existing commitment. as I've just said. Erm I think also sir, you if you compare the county's N Y four appendix six, if you'll just look at that. With the county's N Y five appendix three, There isn't an N Y five. N Y five is the H two issue where they H two right. I've got it now . Well it gives a schedule of housing conditions in Greater York erm and I've been comparing in in turn that schedule with the schedule produced by the City Council on a more updated basis. And that actually gives an assumption of net conversion gains in the Greater York area. So it seems to me the exercise not only must be done, for the purpose of calculating where we stand in supply terms, but actually has been done by the County Council in respect of Greater York. So I think the figures should be erm three hundred a year times thirteen. With no reductions. Which is is again just assuming past trends will continue. I can see no better way which to make the make the assessment. Until . Malcolm , County Council. I'm not quite sure what it is Mr is asking. Is Mr asking for a specific figure for net conversions to be included in stage one. It does seem to me that's not entirely consistent to government guidance in P P G three which simply states that the structure plan would state whether or not conversions are included within the housing figures. It does not require that they specifically be separated out. And I'm not quite sure if that would necessarily assist the district councils in the preparation of their district plans. But if if if if you are saying that calculation of housing provision includes conversions, I'm somewhat some guidance on how much provision will have to made from new built sites, and somebody's going to have to make an intelligent assumption about how much is coming forward from conversions. Well certainly the starting point for that must be to look at what has been happening in the past as evidence. But on top of that one must then look into the future, the future supply of such properties, and the future o er of a whole range of issues which may occur locally and which can only really be decided by the district councils in their local plan work. Yeah I I I mean I got the point, but er where does it take the building industry or the district. The districts obviously will do their assessments through the local plan . Well absolutely I mean this is the way that things have always worked and the County Council makes a global assessment of requirements for a particular district and the district council then takes it forward with assumptions on small sites, windfall sites er and major allocations that they may be mad making. Er conversions are simply a different factor they will have to take into account. I don't see any difference in principle simply that this is an additional point they will have to take in account in their their local plan preparation. This may be also a question which you will say the districts are in a better position to answer and maybe they should be forewarned that if you say that, they will be asked that question. Do you have a feel of how much of the total provision that you're proposing in the structure plan will be development on green field sites as opposed to development existing urban areas? Er Malcolm , County Council. No I don't w we've never attempted to define development in those terms. Erm strictly in those terms by by district, mainly because much of the development across North Yorkshire is on very small sites er within urban areas, within villages, the extent to which you define them as green field or brown field sites becomes a very subjective one and I I think it's a very difficult line to draw. Erm and we we have never attempted to define it in quite those terms. Mm. But this if I may pick up on the point Mr made, how then do you assess the environmental impact of what you're proposing if you don't actually know where it's going to go? But the environment The environment in North Yorkshire is not just confined to the green field sites, it is also confined to the the small villages, the market towns. And the character of those towns is also erm subject to pressure from development on what might be described as brown field sites and could adversely affect the character of those settlements themselves. Just as readily as by gr er green field sites. I'm still lost for what in effect is the answer to Mr 's question. How did the County Council assess the environmental impact of forty one point two K new dwellings. The County Council took into account a wide range of considerations, in including the the information that came through from the local plan authorities, in the preparation of their local plans over the past ten years or more. On the problems and opportunities that they faced allocating land throughout the county. Erm the County Council is well aware of the problems they faced and the issues that have arisen out of those local plans and took those into account in the preparation of the structure plan alterations. But the essence of your answer to the questions that have been asked over the last twenty minutes or so, is we haven't done it that way. Mm. With which I'm left with an impression that you don't actually know where the dwellings are going to go in general terms. How many are coming from conversions, how many are coming from green field as opposed to brown field sites. What basis what did you have therefore for your assessment that forty one thousand two hundred was okay? Well I don't think you can expect the County Council and the structure plan authority to have an idea of where the allocations are going because that would be taking on the role of the local plan preparation authority. Er the County Council cannot look at an individual building and say, this is a particular piece of land which is going to be developed and this is going to have this particular impact on the environment. But No I didn't expect you that you would have the answer to those questions at the level of villages, however I think it might be reasonable to expect that in reaching your view, primarily on environmental grounds, which is the major flank of your argument for suppressing past migration trends. As part of that appraisal, you would have taken some view. The alternative is that and I'm being provocative quite deliberately, I am left with an impression that what the County Council have done is add together input from district councils to prepare its structure plan. Well there's certainly been one element of the the input to the preparation of the structure plan, but there has also been some independent view on the the capacity and the the environmental problems that individual districts across North Yorkshire and West Yorkshire have in their ability to accommodate development, and on the pressure and the problems that those pressures of development will have on those individual districts, bearing in mind the environmental constraints identified both in National and in the Secretary of State's previous approval of the structure plan. What were those environmental parameters? I think the County Council looked at government guidance in relation to the need to protect and safeguard National Parks, greenbelt, high quality agricultural land,to the need to protect the countryside for its own sake. Er there is a range of government advice on the sort of areas which need to be protected. Er it also takes into account the government's advice on the need to protect the environment and the . Did you make any quantified ? Not in the sense that the County Council went out and did a measured assessment which said, Right this particular district can accommodate X thousand dwellings in areas which aren't greenbelt or which are greenbelt or individual factors. It was based on their general experience and their general local knowledge of the problems and opportunities and constraints on particular areas. Mr . Yeah going to seek to fill in the spaces in your columns J and K since if you find that helpful. And to explain them. Er Scarborough. Is that right? Er dealing first of all with conversions, er J . We've got a figure there of six ninety and for the windfall sites, five seventy. If I can just erm refer to our previous experience of er conversions which I think is probably a little peculiar given the nature of a seaside resorts. Erm for instance in the period eighty nine to ninety two, we were running at an annual average of about a hundred and seventy four conversions a year. However the average, seventy seven to ninety two, er gives you a figure of eighty five. Now given the nature of the coastal economy and what has happened to us in the last ten years or so, we have calculated our conversions through to two thousand and six on a reducing level. On the basis that a lot of the big houses that were doing holiday accommodation and so on, er have have already been converted and this is our experience, so on that basis we have taken a reduced figure for conversions and that is basically the reasoning behind it. Now er thereafter you say well why six ninety and not seven ten. Er clearly the we have to you have to make a judgement on this. But that is the reasoning behind it. Similarly, er we have actually er taken something of the same attitudes towards windfall sites within the urban areas. Because a great many have developed in recent years. And taking up points about town cramming. So er I'm giving you that as an example, but I think that Scarborough will be atypical of the county as a whole because of the nature of the Victorian property and the holiday industry. Thank you. Mr ? Er could I just return to to the line of questioning very briefly that the Senior Inspector was was pursuing a moment ago with with the County Council, in terms of the assessment of the environmental impact that the forty one thousand figure. I mentioned in in my first contribution this morning a a concern about that those considerations that environmental considerations, even if they have been fully considered er are not there's not an explanation provided anywhere in in the structure plan supporting material as to how that's actually been achieved. However there there is there is I think some re there are relevant sections in in the county council document N Y eleven, which follows on which is the the county's as I understand it rebuttal to to the H B F's assumptions on erm the environmental constraints and how they should apply across the county. Erm the the impression I'm left with I must admit is that that that the cart has followed the horse if that's right in that erm the environmental justification for the figures has been retrospective. Erm I think, C P R E we feel we say this in our opening statement to our evidence that it should be the other way round. Er and in in indeed government guidance is is is states exactly that. I don't know if it's something through through the panel, it's the been put to the County Council as to whether I my interpretation of of the process is correct. Well well perhaps Peter , North Yorkshire. Perhaps I could er develop erm erm the position a little bit further. Erm any suggestion that erm the figures that we're putting before this E I P have appeared out of the blue, er we would wish to er refute quite categorically. I you look at the County Council, the County Council is the National Park Authority. That covers about half of the erm of the county. Erm local plan progress is is well advanced erm er in the national parks and that has been the subject of continued discussion erm between the county and its national park committee, the county planning committee and its national park committee. There have been numerous meetings er between the district, the county and the national park committee on the problems of environmental capacity within those areas. The County Council also manages work on er A U M Bs the two main A U M Bs in the county. And the county's well versed in the problems within the A U M Bs. The County Council er together with its district council colleagues er has also spent five years looking at the problems in Greater York. There's another area, a substantial chunk of the county which has been explored ad nauseam in terms of er environment. When you then look at the bits that are left over, erm we've got Hambleton District Council which has er had the er er earliest I think local running down the centre of the county. There's been close liaison between er the county and Hambleton. We've an adopted local plan for that p part of Selby district outside the Greater York area, so already we've covered ad infinitum by by various assessments. Quite clearly the county's spent a lot of time assessing environmental capacity and environmental problems within North Yorkshire. And you can add to that the fact that a number of districts er have said that they've been consulted five times by the County Council er on various erm population projections. Quite clearly there's been full well perhaps too much too much discussion, consultation, assessment and implications right the way through the the preparation of this operation. The County Council is soundly based in pursuing a figure er of forty one thousand dwellings. Mr ,and partners. It seems to me there's there's a very circular argument that that's been applied to this question of environmental constraint. We we heard just now from the the County Council, that they have looked at Hambleton's district wide local plan, looked at the constraints in that back to Hambleton effectively as housing requirement. Rather than establishing at a strategic level housing requirements, so that local plans being formulated can weigh those housing requirements against environmental constraints. Because at the end of the day, it is essential that a balance is struck between meeting housing needs and conserving environment. That can be illustrated by a complete lack of information in front of us on the that that actually applies any consistency to er the the environmental discount applying in different parts of the county. I'm looking at the helpful assessment provided by Selby in A seven double O four. Their appendix three. And that sets out for each district in the County a few areas of different environmental constraints. National Parks,, greenbelt and so on. There is absolutely no correlation between those figures and the degree of constraint that has been applied on districts. For instance if you look at Selby, at forty two percent of its area constrained, and a high housing value requirement. If you with Hambleton, forty four percent, with a very constrained housing requirement, a seventy percent constraint. I think you may say they're they're different districts and and Selby is constraint is all greenbelt. You can compare Ryedale and Hambleton, which are not very different. Ryedale has more a higher proportion of National Park, A O M B, local landscape designation and greenbelt than Hambleton but is unconstrained. I just do not see that any logic can be applied in this process at all. Yes Mr Yeah,, Samuel Smith's brewery, Tadcaster. Erm to echo the point that Mr has made, I also regard this erm the environmental assessment as unsatisfactory with its particular interest in Selby. And er I note that Selby has accepted or resolved to accept the increased allocation from ten thousand to eleven thousand five hundred, subject to the District Council satisfying itself that the level of growth envisaged can be achieved without compromising the established structure plan strategy or the environment of the district. And it seems to me as Mr said, it's putting the cart before the horse really. The it's no use accepting a level of housing and saying, We'll accept that subject it not damaging the environment. What should be done is the level of housing allocated to Selby should be assessed in terms of whether it can be satisfactorily accommodated, and if it can't then it shouldn't be allocated. If it can, it it should be allocated. But this the way it's it's er accepted here is completely unacceptable in my view. Mr ? Stephen from . Sir I very much share the best I think doubts that were evident in Miss 's questions about whether there is any real environmental assessment on which the county figure's based. Either a county or indeed at a rational comparative district level. I prior to this E I P read through N Y four, very closely, looking for this. And I counted the word environment and environmental, forty five times and not one scraptwo thousand and Comment Perhaps Mr can confirm whether he was present when the county planning committee considered on I think three or four occasions, the er the various range of projections. Were you present Mr . My colleagues were present sir and have informed me that the comment that I made is actually accurate. I wouldn't accept that. There were a range of meetings, some private meetings with district councils when they've given the opportunity to discuss issues erm themselves, and quite clearly our members did in fact look at a whole range of projections before coming to a final view. Quite clearly it was a thorough examination and members had before them at both county and district level, the implications er of the various projections. And er they took the decision erm to erm pursue the policies er as as as set out in this E I P. Mr do you want to throw some light on this ? Yes er yes thanks chairman. Nice to get into that even if it is almost as er night watchman. Terry Selby District Council. You can continue your innings tomorrow you know. Well I hope that won't be necessary. Erm reference has been made er a couple of times to the appendix which I attached to my submission, that's the map and the schedule of strategic constraints, I feel I ought not to let it pass without some comment. Er and basically that's I'm beginning to feel that I've thrown in a bit of a red herring here. Erm the only purpose of the information presented is to establish the differences in strategic terms between the the districts in in the county. I feel that is an appropriate er investigation which is being done by the county and and the district jointly. And I think it does demonstrate that in comparison with other parts of North Yorkshire, Selby is in fact much less constrained. Er and I really wouldn't like more to be read into it than than that. Er Mr also commented om the er consideration of the er emerging alteration and increase in Selby District's allocation from ten thousand to eleven and a half thousand dwellings erm and I would like to assure him now that we have completed out local plan studies, we are in the process of fine tuning them and and I'm quite confident that we will be able to accommodate the eleven and a half thousand dwellings. I wonder given Selby's recent experience with their local plan, whether they can enlighten us as to how they have reached a view that the structure plan provision in right in environmental terms for their district. Well g er going back to to my starting point that the relative environment of Selby the vis a vis the rest of North Yorkshire erm it's a point which I'm sure I'll repeat in in in the coming days and it's it's basically that Selby in comparison with other districts in North Yorkshire is significantly different. We don't have the the the same er national nationally That's it running now, the tape and this That's all you get a quiet hum in Yes. the background there. Who's going to start? Hey? Who's going to start. ask a question. Aye I was just asking really I was just gonna ask, Well were you all born in this house? No Andy and Ann were born here Aha. and Mrs was born in over the river. That was the farm Oh yes, I where our forebears came to Aha. in seventeen twenty. Aha. So they came from . Aha. They Near at any rate. So that's a long time ago, seventeen twenty. Yeah. Two hundred and sixty sixty years is that right? Yes? You're quicker than I am. That's just That's a long time to be You must be the oldest family in do you think. Pardon? No. I think are older. Really. They were longer Yes. Mhm. The . But you'd be one of the oldest . Aye they would be the oldest family. Aye. I see. And s and so wh when did you er who s who built this house or when did you move to this part? In nineteen seven. Nineteen seven. Nineteen seven. Just when you and why did you leave ? Was there Well there she didn't had the two places going you see . Oh Ii see. Yes. You mean you mean you This place was big until my father took it over and he kept the places going and we still have the two places. Aha. But the house at now is ruining I think, is it? Well it's they're going to sort it out. Oh that's good. Mhm Mr at the Lodge Aha. sister in law, Aha. She's married and they think they're going to make a holiday home of it just now. Yes. But they are beginning to sort it up. Oh that's good. Cos I I remember looking at that house years back, you know, when I was a boy walking about you know. Mhm. Er and do you remember living there at all or well. No I was two years when I left there. Two years Yes I can't remember anything about it. No. But of course I was back and forth. Oh yes. Yes. But that wasn't my father's house until he got married. Aha. My grandmother lived just nearby you see in the Aha. . Yes bits of walls. I think Aha I think know where it is. Mhm. Mhm. I think I know where it Cos that's where my father was born and brought up in that old house. Yes. He never went into the new house until he got married. And that Mm. was in the beginning of eighteen ninety nine. Aha. What was your father's name? John John . John . John . And who did he marry like? Well my mother was from North Uist, that's the Hebrides. Aha. And erm they got married in eighteen ninety nine. Aha. That's a long time ago. It's a great date though eighteen ninety nine. She was . Ah. from Uist. Yes. Ah. Well what do you know what brought her over this way at all? She was a housekeeper in Aha. with . Oh I see. Yes she had her aunt was a widow there at the time when she came to and she just lived about a year. Aha. And that's how she met my father you see. Oh I see. Oh. Right. See. And obv and that's your your father and mother. My father and mother Yes. Aye. And do you remember them well ? That's away ba Away back in seventeen twenty, Aha. there were two brothers came. One took a farm up in the the Brays. That's a fern way. Aha. And then the other brother took Aha. over. Right. And there's no no from the other brother now is there? Not now they're all dies out. That's a shame. They might be abroad of course cos some of them went abroad I know. Aha. But er there's none of them about here. Oh that's a shame mm. And my father I think just went to school in the Wintertime. His father died when he was seven years of age . Mm yes. And he was the second oldest of the family. So he would have had to do quite a lot of work. So he'd quite a lot of work to do when he was quite young. Aha. And he just went to the sc school in the Wintertime. Oh I see. So I think he was two Summers in school. But apart from that there was just the In the Winter. the Winter. When things would be quieter maybe on the farm . Mhm. Yeah exactly. Mhm. Right. And that would that have been school? Yes. The same same N n no no. It was er that building beside the Free Church. The old school house. Yes. That was the old school house there. Oh I didn't The old school school was below Aha. and the teacher's house was next door . Oh I didn't that either. That's really That was the Free Church school house. Right so it was it specifically was That was the time of the disruption. When you Aye y be have the history of that I don't suppose. A little bit. I know a little how. But it would have been the other school as well? Yes yes. The other school was there. it was a Church of Scotland school. I see. But all those have come out in eighteen forty three at the time of the disruption. Ah. To the Free Church Aha. where they did build a school for them you see. Oh I see. Because it's the churches that run the schools in those days . I never knew that . Until about er eighteen seventy two I think . Aha aha. And the the school board was born then. Aha. Do you Would there have been many people in that school at the time. Oh I'm sure there would be. Quite a lot Because there were a lot of people on the staff at that time. Aye. There'd be records somewhere I'm sure of them . What did my father say? He remembered when there was fifteen smokes went up here on this . Fifteen families. In this one This one place that we have now. That's an that's a Well I was looking at I I was looking at the what do you call that now? Census Aha. for eighteen forty one. Aha. And there was forty two people living in . I eighteen forty one . Hard to believe, that's amazing. And today it's three old fogies and a dog. . Oh dear. So other places would be equal to that Yes. So if you if you took that up and down there'd be quite a lot. Yes. So you may know, there wasn't very many rich people about anyway. No. Except the themselves, whether they were rich or not I don't know. No. That's the that was the state of affairs And most of these folk, were they just being farm workers or croppers or Yes. That's right. They'd just be living off the land. Yes. There there could be weavers amongst them. Aha. And thatchers. Aha. Masons. And masons. Masons aha. And maybe an odd carpenter. Yes. But . While you're on weavers, there was a weaver over at that little cottage on the other side Oh well I I can't explain. You know where Cottage. . When you're passing by and going to go down to . You know where is ? Yes. Yes. Well you cross that iron bridge there's Aye. an old cottage on the top. Yes I know it. Well that cottage. Oh right. and what relation is to him? Well the the was Ninian's great great grandparents. And he's the governor general of Australia today. Sir Ninian . Oh. He used to come for holidays as a wee boy . I remember him. Aha. Aye. Of course they weren't er well off or anything there but he was a clever boy you see Yes. he went in for law. Aha. So he was a he was a lawyer or a judge I think in I think he was a judge in India. Mm. I just can't tell you. So he's the present Governor General of Australia and that was his great grandfather that was a weaver over in that little cottage. That's amazing. Connection. They're they're related to us too. Aha. We're connected with them you see . Yes. They're mostly the country old country people now. Related to one another. Yes yes they would be. They wouldn't out Aye. Well that's It's quite interesting that. It is see the difference . Mhm. Now again. It's just across the river here. Yes. There were a woman born and brought up there, she was Annie before we married, and her grandson is . the Duke of Edinburgh's private Er not a pilot but No. What is it Navigator. Navigator. Oh yes yes. Yes well he's he's promoted since then. Yes. And he's Queen's flight. Yes I think he's er the leader of the Queen's flight what do you call that? Commander I suppose something like that . Mhm. Well he used to come here for holidays. And it shows how some people get on. Yes. Yeah he was just You never know You never know, you might get on like that. Oh no. We'll see. We'll see. Ah he used to come up here when he was a wee boy with his granny. Aha. And when the granny come up again without him she told that when he went to back to Glasgow, if he came in hungry, he would say, Oh for a plate of porridge. Very good. porridge now, not with the Duke. Yeah. No maybe that's . It kept him going. I was I was gonna ask you who or what does the mean, the name? The mouth of the river I think. Mouth of the river. Inver is the Aha. mouth and I think is I thought you thought it was the confluence. Well it's where the where the and it meets . Yes. I think it's that's the inver you see. Oh yes. Aye. At the mouth. The mouth of the river. . And and means the face of the sheep cotes. Really. Mhm. I didn't know that. It's Gaelic. It's Gaelic is it? Aha. Well what would the original Gaelic have been for that? Ah. It's to to analyze that, you would think it was the cat's face, but it's the face of the cotes. Sheep cotes. Face of the sheep The sheep C O T E S , not C O A T S . C C O T E S C O T E S like a dovecote you know. Oh I see . A sheepcote a shelter for sheep. Mhm. Right. down South they would call it . Aha mhm. Sheep . Oh I see. Mhm. Right. Because you often you see the English word, you've no idea where it comes about it's just an odd word when it's been Mhm. changed you know. Mhm. Anglicized or whatever. .H how how long is it since was deserted? Oh well er I think it was the last . . . Och no no. Oh aye. I think . . It'd be in the fifties. Aye. Er I think so. another thing I was gonna ask you as well, your father Your parents both spoke Gaelic obviously. Oh yes yes. and did did they speak it to you when you were children? Yes. My mother did but my father didn't very much. No? He mostly spoke English to us younger ones anyway. Yes. But er we used to answer when our mother'd speak to us in Gaelic, we'd answer her back in English. Oh. Us younger ones. Aha. But er Jeannie and my older sister Mary, they were perfect Gaelic speakers. Mhm. They used to speak Gaelic to one another when they were children. Yes. Converse in Gaelic. But we were never as fluent as that you see because er they went to school then and they started coming home with English you see ad speaking English and we just Yes. Mhm. never got the same chance. No I and and and was it not discouraged a wee bit at school. No I don't think so here. I heard it had been said that it was discouraged but er I heard that said aye. I don't think so never heard of it. Aha. Right but but you understand quite a bit of it still. Oh I understand it as good as English. Aha. Aye anybody speaking Gaelic there is just the same to me Aha. as though they were speaking English. Aha. Right so. There'll not be many Gaelic speakers left here now. No. Very few. Gerald I believe. Yes. Yes. Gerald And his wife. Yes. And little . Oh yes? Is he? Aye he's a Gaelic speaker. Although if you if you say anything to him in Gaelic, he answers you in English I notice. Yes yes. . Oh yes. He speaks Gaelic. Yes. Yes. He's just recovering of course. Mrs . That's right yeah. I think Megan has been learning Gaelic I think, she's not a native by any means but But Ian 's wife you know Ian 's wife. She's learned Gaelic recently. Is that so. Aye. She's getting quite good I think. Oh well. not a native. Dawn can speak Gaelic. Och not very well. No but he understands it quite well. I ask you when when you were younger did you would there have been many of the folk in the place spoke Gaelic or was it dying out then or Oh no quite a lot. The older folk. The older people. Right. The older people's all Gaelic they would speak. So yes. So you would get quite a quite a lot of it you would hear. Oh yes. Aha. of course you there would just been my father and mother'd be speaking Gaelic all the time in the house you see . Yes. And we were it was just to us like English. Yes. Only we didn't practise speaking it you see . Yes. Yes. Aye. And the ploughmen that were here, too they would they come from the West. Aha. And they would have Gaelic. So we was brought up in that atmosphere. It would have been quite interesting having the two languages . It would have been quite Yeah. quite er We just You do you g get a a best of both maybe I would imagine you know. be quite sort of interesting It was just er d I was gonna ask you about your name as well,, it doesn't sound very It's not very high. It's a name. Aye aha. I think. Aha. And it was Yes I think originally it came from in . Aha. That's where the first Aha? And I think that's where the the chief of the clan is I think Mhm. he's Adrian . Aha. Aha. But whether he's still alive or not I don't know. But there are quite a few round and these places. Aha. Mm. That's good. So I think Jimmy traced back to the first Aha. who was descended from William the Lion. Aha. That was the first . Yes. A descendant of William the Lion that was king of Scotland at one time. I wasn't very good at history myself . No. No no not not that far back anyway. . That was just that's quite interesting. Erm I was also gonna ask you about the the farm. Would you all have worked in the farm, when you were young. Oh we did a little bit anyway. Yes. May used to to drive the horses even in the binder. Aha. With with a binder with a Yes with three horses in it. Aha. She she had to cut the harvest one year. was away up at or something. Aha. So that wasn't bad going. No not at all. Well was the harvest. Aha. You you Aha. working at the horse. You you liked the horses? I liked the horses yes. I I'm scared of horses myself. Oh well. I I like to see them. I I liked I liked sheep. Aha. . Sheep. So I work on down the lambing quite a few times. Aha. Now we've we haven't got you see. When did you actually give up the the farm as such. I mean when did you stop I think in seventy seven I think. Seventy seven aye. you see. Oh I see. Let it for the Summer and Autumn. Right. Cattle and sheep. But I mean do you not it's not your That's right. Not your stock. . Do you miss the the the farm work a lot. Oh yeah . Oh aye. Oh he cuts peats, he's been busy cutting peats. Aha. Do you cut well where do you cut your peats round here? Pardon? Where about do you cut your peats? Away up across the overhead bridge here you cross the you know the overhead bridge Aye the railway line. Aha. Aha. You cross that and you go way up the hill about a mile. Aha. . Aha. you take them back with the with the Land Rover there? No the tractor. I still have the tractor and trailer . Oh I see. Aha. What time of year do you cut the peats? Well er the best time is the month of May. Aha. But this year you couldn't, the weather was so So bad. bad. I never cut them all till about beyond the middle of June. Aha. But they're fairly dried out. That er Aha. good hot days we got and those breezes too. Aha. Dried them out very well. I must admit when I when I came in the door there the first thing I noticed was the peat smell. Oh well yes. Yes . Yes yes you would. And it's lovely. Takes your right off. It's lovely it's really it's a great smell you know. It's it's like it's like going back in time the feeling about it. Aha. It's a great smell. And I I I never I never thought to ask you about if you cut peats now. Mhm. And I remember we used to do it erm at the distillery. Och while back now since we stopped. I remember cutting the peats you know. Ah. My father and a few of us would would take the tractor and stuff. But nobody I think does it now up there.. I do I don't know why. I mean it's good fuel Yes but it's too much like work, we're too busy doing everything. Aye I think so. I think that's what it is. But the distillery itself used to cut a lot of peat for their own Aha. For the distillery's use Aha. Oh they used to cut a big lot. But they stopped it I'm sure twenty years ago. Yes they get all mechanized now. Is it finished? Oh no it's a good bit yet. I cannae can't quite see . What's the next head? Well just It's one of the other things I was gonna a It's still about the farm actually, I was gonna ask er about things like H your tasks your was there anything like things like the harvesting would you have people coming in to help you? Would other farmers help? No not often. You would just do it yourselves. Do it ourselves, yes. Yes . You would There wasn't a traditional They did occasionally. Aha. A neighbour might come in or two neighbours might come in and help. Aye. With the in Aha. . And you would have built erm haystacks was it. Yes round stacks. Oh aye aye. Cos I think there was all different styles of those wasn't there? That's right. have your own. Did you not have to be off the ground a wee bit or something. Well we used to put er branches below them to Aha. keep them from sucking the Aha. wet off the ground. Aha. Yes and and a cone inside you know, with three legs a tripod . A tri A tripod. Oh yes. And then if they got in good condition built up solid. Aha. And how how many haystacks would you have in a good year. Oh well, latterly we'd have about ten haystacks right . Aha. And I remember the most corn stacks we had was twenty five. Aha. But er as a rule there'd be about sixteen or there about. Aha. Corn stacks. That's quite quite good though. Oh yes. Quite. . So that's what you would have done with the corn The hay was the hay the stalk? That's right, the hay and the straw. You thresh the straw you see and Aha. the straw. Aha. Do you know if there was any mills around about? Meal mills or . Oh right. This was one, just behind the . Yes. . Yes. I know. Well I know. I remember . And that would have been. made the meal was it. Made the meal yes. Aha. For the local people. Would there have been anybody like like a baker who would have baked it or No I don't think there No. was a baker here. No. home-made. All home-made. . Aha. . Aha aha. the bread. Aye. There was a carding mill at where they carded the wool you know. I didn't know that at all actually. That's where er Mrs used to live there. I remember. Who's in it now? Somebody took it over. You know where the council houses are? Yes. And there's that square house down to yeah ? Oh yes yes. That's a carding mill. I'd I'd heard it was a mill. I didn't know it was a carding mill. Aye it's for carding wool. Aha. it was away during the war for scrap but we or maybe not, maybe they took the works away too Aha. for scrap. And do you know when that stopped at all? About nineteen six I think. Aha. Quite a while back. Mhm. Quite a while. I was just thinking about also sheep shearing and stuff. That you'd have done that yourselves as well? Yes we used to A whole lot would come here and I'll go somewhere else the next day you know, we used to help one another to sheep shearing. Oh right. Yes there were quite a crowd. Aye. the sheep shearing. And would had to make food for them and stuff like that? Yes we did. Yes yes. It would be quite a a busy time. Well it was just a dinner you made for them you see . Aha. And they'll get tea at in the stack yard or wherever they were . Aha. Oh. . And they would be all the hand shears of course. Oh all the hand shears. Mhm. And how many days would it take? Oh maybe a matter of four or five hours we'd take here. Oh right. We we had two hundred and fifty sheep. But if you'd They did the harvest first you see. Aha. And then they did the sheep with the lambs. Right. And that was the biggest that had been about here. Aha. There's be about twenty clippers at it. That's quite a lot. There would be about a thousand to do in a day. Aha. Quite hard work. long day quite hard. Nobody'll need a hand clipping around here now . Not very much. They all doing it the other day. I was doing it the other day yes. Aha. Yeah. down the valley. They're still doing a wee bit there. But er there were two boys who a machine beside. Another thing I was gonna ask you about was erm I'd heard somebody mention ploughing competitions with horses. Oh aye yes. I wondered if you remembered any of them at all. Yes because I I competed . Ah you did. Yes. I was at the first one when I was fifteen. Aha. Was it quite a a big thing around here was it. Oh what a great day match. Where where would they hold it? Oh on different farms. Say here one year, maybe another year up and Aha. Different places. Aha. Well they'd just get a suitable field to keep the whole lot. You get half an acre each to do. Half an acre, that's quite a lot . Mhm. The horses would be all dressed up and everything. Decorations and. Be lovely that. Nineteen thirty first was the ploughing match. Nineteen thirty five . Here . They still have it in with But we never had a one here. No no, it was just the same. No no I wouldn't think so. Horse were nice. Would would they have been the big heavy horses, the big Clydesdale Well they were mostly the Clydesdale but oh there were some light horses in it too. Mhm. But it was mostly the Clydesdales. That would be it would a a s the straightest plough would it be or the straightest line would it have Yes that was counted in it too and it had to be well parked. Each furrow parked against the other to keep the you see. If you had holes in the seed bed that was a fault. Aha. It sounds like quite a skill . Ah. Just I was just gonna ask you really to maybe just a change you know the difference between day and know, maybe you can see quite a difference just er Well of course you will, the population was Yes and er the motor car. No nobody with motorcars when we were young. Aha er you mean, all horse transport or or or walking. Aha. Or the bicycle of course. But hardly anybody had a car. But Well except the the the . And the doctor. Who? Oh the doctor . relations. Yes we remember going to school would see the doctor's car. Aha. If he happened to come up the way. The the roads would they have been quite good or Oh they were quite good. Well not as good as they are now. They were er what you would call er broken metal on them. Aha. And and rolled in. Rolled in and what you called er water bound roads. Er they done the broken metal and then they put on the top of it and then they come along with a watering cart and er splashed water on it and then Aha. drove the down between the Aha. the broken metal and then the steam roller was back and fore on it and It was quite a good surface you know, but Aha. Mm. It was pretty rough and we used to go in Summer you know, barefeet, Aha. And we'd run in the middle of the road and today we couldn't stand it. No no no tough. It would quite suitable for horses and stuff It would be very suitable for horses, even more so than on the present roads there's there's there's a better grip. Aha. For horses. But er that kind of road would be no use today with the speed of the cars, it would just Too noisy. slacken up in no time and Aye. Oh yes. We used to see a lot of shepherds and flocks of sheep Aha. you know, on our way to school and it was just grey flocks of sheep with perhaps Oh aye. two shepherds with them. Coming from C as far as Caithness. Yes. I don't know where they'd been making their way South. What quite big flocks of sheep? Big flocks of sheep Aha. and two or three shepherds with them. And I remember it was a a one lot was a a . A Mr from Caithness. Aha. How long would he Walking to the South. Be walking a way down South. Aha. Mm. Would he would he ever stop and down on the way or something like you know overnight? Well that's in er either stopping He stopped here one night. Do you remember the deaf shepherd we called him. Yes. He left his flock up there and stayed here all night. I think that's the only one I ever remember. Cos we were off the road a wee bit you see. Yes. I remember er a flock staying here and the shepherds got their supper here and then they went on to for the night. Oh aye. Was a long long time ago. would have been a a a drover-wood I suppose at some point. This would have been quite a popular route. Oh it would really yes. An old inn you see. I think it was Aha. built about seventeen forty five I think. Aha. the origin of Inn. Aha. That's a bit old. And now they're taking it down. That's quite sad. Aye. Aye. Very sad indeed actually. I'm not really sure what they're gonna put in its place. When d when did the road go through here? Oh well the In I mean. Oh well it er General , he made the first road. Aha. When would that be, about seventeen something. About seventeen twenty Yes. I think. Something along that line. up to anyway. and then there was It was improved after that. It was known as the old Edinburgh road. Aha. The improved one. It's followed 's Road most of the way but it's it went different routes some places just to take away a steep . Aha. But I think the pre er well not the present A nine but the A nine that was there before they made the new one, it was made about eighteen thirty I think. Aha. Up through to Yes.. See the other roads went by . Oh yes. And this was up by Bridge End and up Aha. by . And there's a new for the place since the railway went through. Oh really. Yes it means the hill of the juniper. Aha. There is a juniper hill at the back. Yes I used to play on it when I was a boy. Is that so. My favourite place to play . Well it was it was known as before. My father always c called the place . Well well well the well the first post office was built, just where now, it was on Estate, so they called the post office . Oh I see. And did away with the stuff there. Right yes. And then when the railway come through, the station was also Estate. Yes. It was called Station. Aha. Oh I see. And then And before that it was known as . Aha. A nicer name. It is really. Yes. that station. Well is quite nice in the Gaelic but er when they change it into English they Yes. it loses its flavour. It does I agree with that . It's much much nicer name for the whole area really Yes yeah. Do you know what the means at all.. ? . The white The well The white river. No was white you see it was an Irish word I think, and it was known as the . That's how we'd you see. Oh I see. And I think it means the white . Mm. And originally the white goddess. Oh. That's what it came from. It's Irish. I'd never have guessed that. . It's a nice r it's a nice river . It's six sixty miles long. The the . Yes if you sort of. I see. It's a lovely river. Oh yes. Mm. There's another down in er Perthshire,. Aha. And this was but they put a D in it to Ah. To distinguish. to distinguish the two. Yes, I see. Mm. . The Gaelic is . Aha. And you see, Ireland is . Yes. You see, it came from the same thing. Aha. or something. Yes. Yeah. It's an old sounding name. Mhm. I was meaning to ask about the would you you wouldn't have any idea the number of people who would have been in your your early days here? Oh no. No? Would there not be Would there be two or three times the number now or. Oh no I don't think so. Of course the distillery distillery had been made bigger it er put up the population a good bit. Ah. But then a lot of the other part of the er disappeared in the olden days. Aha. Yes well when did they they start emigrating, about eighteen fifteen or thereabouts eighteen si Eighteen twenty. Well in eighteen twenty one th the population was one thousand one hundred and twenty odd. Aha. If I remember right. One one thousand one hundred and something anyway. Aha. But I think when I was young we used to say that er the population about here was five hundred. Aha. But I don't know what it is now. I think it's hundred or something. I'm not sure. We don't even know the people now. No. . Well well you know, how many people would you know in in now at all. Not awful many. Not very many, the . Yes. Oh well yes And the down of course. anyway. There're all them in the farms, we know all them right enough Yes. A whole lot in the council houses the distillery I don't know them at all. Yes yes. I don't know Och aye. well I know the , Alec and his wife and Ian and the wife. But the other keeper I don't know. Mhm. It's it's amazing how it changed really Yes. . Do you think there was more of a sense of community then or Pardon? Do you think there was more of a sense of sort of community in those days? Where people would know each other better or Oh yes. Oh yes, I think they would. Each other Everybody would know one another in the olden days. Aha. Well a way back in the last century they they had to go looking for a life a living elsewhere because of the poverty of the place. Yes yes. There was far too many people for the land . I see you couldn't And there was no other work besides. Aye. To keep them going. . Did you ever travel anywhere yourselves from from at all?. Well . the borders. Oh yes. But Oh yes. He used to go here and there. Yes. the Western Isles. I reached the borders. Aha. I just saw England, I was never in it. Ah right.. But I was in the most of the islands you know. Yes. But you've you've mostly lived here. Oh yes. Yes. Yes. So this is definitely home. I was just goon interesting to ask about was erm well just how how how people pass evenings you know, did they go visiting each other or Yes there were a lot of that done . Yes they would. There was a lot. Mhm. What they called Ceilidhs. Aha aha. And what what what would happen in a Ceilidh? Oh well just talking and when anybody came here they used to just talk about about old stories and things like that. Aha. Oh yes. Maybe the local gossip that was going at the time. Ah yes. Would there be anybody singing at all or No I can't remember an anybody singing. Not unless a drunk man came in. . But occasionally a tramp would come Aha. and er he'd a night's shelter and a in the stable . Aha. Oh. Oh we'd some regulars that used to come here. Oh they used to come with boxes of jewellery and stuff and thing. Oh aye this Aha. jewellery. Mm. They used to go peddling you see. Yes. a box on their back and they'd open it out and there'd be brooches and tiepins and oh we though that was great. Yes. Yes we didn't see many Who where would they get that? Or would they make it or No they would buy it somewhere and sell it at a profit you see. I see. What you called a peddler. Aha. went round the houses. And they were quite friendly were they? Oh yes yes . Oh. Oh that's Did you ever have many sort of musicians at all in in in those days? Musicians? Aye people fiddlers or Oh yes there were quite a few. Michael 's father was a fiddler. So was . Yes. Aha. And er Jimmy my brother, he was a piper. I'd heard that, yes. I'd heard . Yeah. Dave 's father, he was a piper too. 's grandfather. Yes. And Don he was a grand piper.. So there w would have been quite a tradition of music as well. Mhm. Would it be all self taught or or how Well well er Jimmy you know used to go down to to learn to read the music. Oh yes. And I think Don could read the music too but they'd be more or less self taught otherwise but then they would have started playing by ear. Yes. And then they learnt the music later on some of them and Ah. Aha. took it off the books then. Yes. Mm. I was just gonna ask you another thing as well, was there any any tradition of local songs at all ? Do you know any local songs or rhymes or anybody ever Well poems even . Well 's father was a a bard. Aha. He'd a book of poems. Have you ever seen it now. Was it just one he wrote himself was it. Yes. Yes. Oh. Was it ever published or was it just Yes yes. Yes yes. Aha. I must find out about that. You don't have a copy or anything . Yes I can get a copy for you. Aha.. I d I don't think you would get them to buy now, but No. I know there's a copy in the house somewhere. Aha. I'd be very interested to to see I'll give a look for it before you go. Aha. That was that was 's father. 's father yes . Aha. Oh was great poet too. I I'd heard he wrote a few things. Oh that was a very good poet . I I've I've been trying to see the 's about it and about getting copies of some of his poems so that people could see them you know. And I I don't know what's happening but that . I just wondered if you knew any of them off hand or. We did have them somewhere but I I just don't know Aha. where they are. Did did you ever ever sing or play anything yourselves or No. You used to play a lot . Och. . I never mastered it though. You had a go though. I used to try . No no. Do you play yourself, anything? I'm learning the mandolin. A wee bit. Oh well I see. Yeah. Very slowly. Mhm. I don't think I'll ever master it. But er I'm trying you know. Trying. I was just thinking there w there would be more music playing in those days, because there wasn't a television or or things like that you know maybe just to distract people make their own entertainment you know. I was just wondering about well about that. I was also gonna ask you about, was it a morbid subject but about funerals. Was there any undertaker locally or Undertakers? Aye who would who would take care of that ? Well er Mar Mary 's father used to do do the coffins. Oh I didn't know that . And there were other joiner over and Do you know what is? Yes yes. Well William , he used to do them too. Aha. In fact I think in in those days er it's mostly the local men that Aha. did the undertaking. Aha. But that's during my time that I remember. Yes. So if somebody died they would they would the body or or make the coffin and Make a coffin and take it to the Take it to the house. Take it to the house. Yes. And would how would the would the the coffin be carried to the churchyard in those days? Mostly, yes. Shoulder high. Sho Aha. High on the shoulder. And walk all the way to the Walk all the way yes, in the olden days. Aha. Must have been quite a Would there have been a procession behind it or anything? Oh aye yes and they'd be changing over Aha. Every now and again. Was there anything like an places where they used to rest the coffin or anything like that? Well er they would rest it in the parapet of a bridge I think. Oh yes. But I think there's some places though, special places for resting a coffin. Aha. Aha. And then in the old days when they used to have this body snatching, Yeah. You know for the for the doctors. Yes. they had a little watch house. You'd see that in and . Aha. There's a little watch house. Yes. Where the people watched for so many days there For six weeks. Six weeks. Yes after the Their relatives you know Aha. bodies you see in case they would lift them. Aha. And they they even had a gun in with them and if they didn't go by the third shot They fired in the air you see. Aha. They were liable to get shot properly. Mm. So. It's quite nice of them. Quite gruesome. Indeed. What why why would they steal the bodies? For er dissecting it for the Ah. Doctor Ah I see, the money yeah. Because they were busy experimenting at that time and Ah I see. You've heard of Burke and Hare. Yes. Yes. Well, that's what it was. I never thought it went on up here though. Oh yes there were watch houses here Yes there was. Oh In all the churchyards. And they had to watch there for six weeks. There'd be tonight, now for tomorrow night, the two that was on tonight had to find the next two. Oh I see. To go in their place. Aha. If not they would have to stay on another night. Oh. But they would only get two you see, and they would go on and that two would have to find another two to go on the following night. Yes. For six weeks. . Mhm. . Aye. A lot of work and sleepless nights. That's why there were these flat stones on the graves you know the old Yes. So So that they couldn't easily get them out. I see. I didn't I didn't know that . But there would've been nobody would have stolen bodies here though. Surely. Well. I think they did. There was er a man here his his name was James and I I don't know was it one of his relatives that was buried, but he dreamt that they came to snatch the bodies Aha. The body. And he reported it and the put on a double watch that night. Aha. And during the night, the watchmen saw a coming over the the dyke. Aha. And they shouted at in a while they saw it coming up again, they give another warning. Aha. The third one was the the shot was to be fired you see. Aha. He disappeared. Mm. Whether there was any truth in it or not I don't know but it was told to me that he dreamt it Aha. that they came in to snatch the bodies and they put a a double watch on. But I w I was wondering myself did the watchmen make up the story or did it come? I don't know. . Right. But er What about the tramp that was found beside dead beside the road up the glen somewhere. Oh aye but he wasn't snatched. No no but he was put into the church. He was found dead at the roadside and er church. Aha. And there was a Miss living in the croft beside and she dreamt during the night that er he he was stolen. Mhm. She got out of bed and went out and went through the churchyard and went into the church and started feeling in the dark with her hand Aha. At last she touched him, Oh you're still there, poor . And she'd away back up the way to bed again. Once she once she was satisfied that her dream Yes. wasn't right. It was Very brave. She wasn't she hardy? Oh indeed. A woman. Very I wouldn't do that myself. No. You knew John ? No. Oh you didn't know John? No. Oh well it was his great aunt Aha. that did it. Aha. Right. . I think I've heard the name but I Yes well his widow is in the in the house opposite to Mrs there. Ah. Across the road. Yes. Oh yes the wee white house ? She's got a wee doggie. Yes. . Oh yeah. That's his widow there. Oh. Yes. I didn't know didn't know him actually. And John would be away one night,. I I was er a manager up at what's that place now? Ah I see. That's another thing I was gonna ask you was about weddings too, was there be you know, quite a few weddings locally. They would be quite different from weddings nowadays would they or They used to have them in the in the houses you see. Oh aye. In their houses. My father and mother were married in the other side. They were married in was it in the barn or or No the house in the In the house they were married and they had the reception where in the barn? In the barn yes. Oh I see, yes. quite a crowd of people I think. Oh I'm sure. as a rule it would be I think. Aha. In the olden days. They did, they were married in deep snow and it was a job for people to travel about. Oh yes yes. In January. But er long before our time a a wedding in a district like this would last for about a week. Really? There were, the wedding would come off right enough but the reception would linger on night after night Yeah. Aye. singing. drinking . Yes oh indeed . . What what about funerals, was there ever any wakes funeral. Oh aye, there used to be wakes at one time. Aha. Not in our time I don't think. at one time at that too. Yes yes. And at the funeral there was bottles of whisky Oh yes. Oh yes. at the churchyard and Oh aye when they used to carry it they they were drinking a dram now and again on the road going to it. . Oh well aye but I think they overdid it sometimes. Yes. I I mean, I'm quite sure. Quite sure. Ask I was gonna ask about was there any organized dances or anything in in the hall? Was there a hall Oh yes there used to be very often dances in the hall. Would they be quite quite regular sort of? Yes. Yeah especially in the shooting season time when Aha. the lodges were full. You would get a lot of people coming down from there. Mhm.. Aha. And and who would play at these dances? Oh well s sometimes it'd be the local boys. Aha. But er quite er often they got a band from Inverness. Aha. Maybe a fiddle and a melodeon. Aha. Sometimes the pipes. Yes and they would they would go on quite a while these dances would they? Oh yes. Quite late. .I I'll just stop this here actually. Okay what can we do for you? Erm I don't know where to start to tell you the truth. I take it you're the expert on employment law? I do a fair amount of employment yes. Well that that is what I'm solely here for. Mhm. Erm I work for a company Limited Mm. or or did erm for the last five and a half six years. Three and a half years ago I was promoted to manager. Yeah. Last September erm I was accompanied by another manager so in effect there's two managers running the place. Was he a new er appointment? I beg your pardon? Was he a new appointment? That's right yeah. he'd worked for before? Erm yeah for a short period of time perhaps about two years ago. It was very very short and certainly not in that capacity anyway. Right. When he came along erm was about he was more or less asked what terms he wanted and said that he was no to show no favouritism. I was given a pay rise because they wanted him as well, you see. Part of that was a company car. Erm I'll men I'll mention him by name, it is a Mr . Mr? . How do you spell that? Yeah. Erm at this stage for the simple reason that together with the erm promotion package, together with the wages package, we was both given a company car. Now at this point Mr after having his either his third or fourth dri drink drive,just come out of court six month had come out of prison after doing a three month stretch for drink driving. Mm. S but what they say is part of his managerial status demanded him having a company car to which I was given one as well but in effect that then became his wife's because he was still banned for drink driving. Yeah? Yeah. You with me so far ? Yeah go ahead. Erm on the on the twenty third or thereabouts on the twenty third of March of this year I myself got stopped for drink driving. It was erm close, very close. Do you know what the reading was? Erm I think it was either forty four or forty six. Mm. Er the blood blood count, because it did go for blood count, the blood count was er ninety three. Yeah, okay. Erm So you got a twelve month ban ? Well I then . don't make the appointments you see . Mm. And I spoke to erm who appointed Mr to take the case for me. Mm. As as a direct result of it erm without anything about it erm Mr in court just wanted to get in and out. He accepted the twelve month ban, fair enough. I see. I I got a twelve month ban anyway. Erm the managing director in front of Mr erm said to me, It won't affect your wages but what we will ask is that you give the company car back until a period of time that your wife passes a test in which case it can be given to your wife as indeed managerial status Mr . Yeah. Mm. On the seventh of June it took this long to get to . On the seventh of June I got my statutory twelve months. Yeah. Erm on the seventeenth of June I was told that there was gonna be a meeting on the eighteenth erm to which I would have to appear concerning my drink driving. On the eighteenth of June attended this meeting erm perhaps this on rather than you jotting down Perhaps enlighten you more. But although this says minutes of the meeting it's not actually minutes of the meeting. It's just notes taken because after things that appeared on here. You don't accept them as being accurate? N no they're quite accurate but the relevant details are missing. Okay let's have a look. What does do? aerials and satellites Er C T D what does that stand for? Er that's the managing director's initials. What's his name? Er Charles . Does seem a bit ironic that he disapproves of drink driving and then prison sentences Precisely. Well I don't know but it's there's certainly a lot of favouritism there. Erm so basically he's still there and they've got rid of me making it as an excuse but Charles as partner is his brother, Nicholas . Now whatever Nick brought up doesn't appear in there as if Nick never spoke. Wh what did he tell you? Erm it's hard just off hand but h he mentions several several things. What they're saying is that Colin was purely administration. I mean I've never needed a new licence for the last three and a half years but Nicholas erm prior to this in the countdown to me appearing for my drink drive which is in a matter of about ten weeks I believe in the countdown to that, Nick said on several o two occasions anyway while other members of staff were present, Well this is a way of getting rid of him without having to pay him redundancy money. and that was in front of witnesses. But all the while I was led to believe by this statement another thing is that the day that made the made the appointment for me to appear, sorry are you reading? No carry on, mm. The day that made the appointment to see and Co, Nick after coming out of that meeting with Nick , we called in at the office, myself and my wife, and whilst I was tidying some things up because I'd got the remainder of the afternoon off, Charles' wife said to my wife, my wife actually broke down in tears, and she says, What's up? Is is it just because of this drink drive? and my wife Lorraine said, Well it is yeah. And she says, Well don't upset yourself about it because worse things has happened than this. Think of Colin and his predicament. Also it may be a godsend to you because as soon as you drive that car becomes yours. Straightforward conversation wife to wife, well again she must have been told that by her husband to even mention it. What's his wife's name? Shirley. Is she er involved in the company? Yeah she's erm company secretary I believe. When you say that er said that this was a way of getting rid of you without paying you redundancy who was present at that who overheard him say that? Erm it was myself, Paul an employee, erm a couple of other employees who I believe to be Dave and . Any of those still with the company? All three. Do you have a copy of your contract of employment or terms of employment. No that's another thing. I've never had a contract of employment in the six years that I've been there but erm less than forty eight hours after all this happened every employee was issued with a contract of employment. Now Paul this is what I've found out since you see, Paul erm said to them, Why suddenly this? and he says, Oh we've actually had them printed for the last two years but we've never had the time to give them out. Mr 's status is identical his abilities are different and it's necessary to have a manager who is mobile . What's the difference between you and Mr ? Well Mr never been before at least I've done it for the first few years that I was there. Been out in the field done all the erm and worked my way up to it you see. This R A F Wittering job that they are referring to S S W F C Sheffield Wednesday Football Club. Right. Erm do they involve you travelling out there on a regular basis? Well on the Wittering job he said he wanted somebody there you know er myself as manager to oversee the job but on the Sheffield Wednesday job, incidentally I'd I got the contract from them both, the Sheffield Wednesday job was done I'd only ever had to visit it once and that was at my request not at anybody else's and either way both erm the Wittering and the Sheffield Wednesday er there have been other drivers going. Er I have never had to go solely on my own so to speak. Have you actually gone solo? Er I've followed them down but the vehicle I could have got in another vehicle. Isn't the argument gonna be that you make sure everything's okay and then you come back again. I have spent all day there . All the lads leave at the exactly the same time that I leave. But that's how it's been happening anyway. Mm a bit more information. Erm can you give me your full name and date of birth. It's Geoffrey Alan Is that G or J ? G. And date of birth? And your address at the moment? street,. And are you on the telephone there? . Now after that Erm whoa whoa can I have some more information off you please I'm sorry first. Er what were you originally employed as by the Aerial engineer. And three and a half years ago y you were promoted to manager. What's what's your actuals title, is it just manager or is it something else? It's in a reference here to something. Manager. Internal field manager. Manager stroke coordinator. What's your pay? Wh what ? Erm two fifty basic Per week? Per week, plus commission. And what was your average take home? Erm it touched it touched twenty grand last year. Or nineteen and a half something like that. And you got a company car as a benefit as well? Yeah. Was there a pension scheme? Erm yeah, but it was there was something that only certain employees that time the start of the pension like myself, erm I have to pay five pound a week after tax for my pension. It is a contributory scheme? That's right and they paid some child Any other benefits paying erm BUPA? No. Private health? No. Telephone home telephone? Okay. Erm normal hours per week how many hours a week were you working? Ooh erm hard to say. That that figure does include overtime erm Yeah. The basic hours are forty two and a half And when did they actually terminate the employment did it take effect from the eighteenth of June or what? No that was that was the Friday and as it says th well I don't know if it says there or not, but they said what would happen, they'd think about it over the weekend and they'd contact me the Monday afternoon erm to make a final decision. The Monday evening they phone me up and said that I was to attend another meeting on Tuesday which I believe were the twenty second to which they said, We've thought about it and we've decided not to continue your employment. And a formal letter will follow. Have you ever had any discipline problems at all in the past? Not that I can remember. Okay. On the Tuesday I went in and they said that a letter would follow right that was on the Tuesday the twenty first something like that, then I never heard nothing from them until this came lunchtime post this Monday recorded delivery. Twenty eighth. What we're saying here is er if you take an ex gratia payment you are not entitled to apply to the industrial tribunal. I couldn't understand it because it contradicts itself twice. Yeah saying that they're entitled to dismiss you without notice. We are going to give you one week's pay in respect of each couple of years of servi , years' service. If they've made you redundant that's what they have to do. They have to give you a week's pay for each year that you have been employed them a as pay in lieu of notice. That's redundancy as opposed to dismissal. So they're saying this is an ex gratia payment in other words they're offering you that payment as er some compensation for the fact that you've losing your job. But it says here should a tribunal require them to pay a basic award for compensation then that payment is on the basis that it's offered and accepted in satisfaction er towards those payments. It's very clumsy language but I think what what they're saying is that if you go to the tribunal and you get compensation, anything they pay you now is going to have to come off that. Erm but then later on th they're saying that you you're accepting it in full and final settlement. contributing towards towards these yeah it's not full and final settlement it's towards these payments. I don't understand this bit to pay a basic award of compensation following an order . A tribunal will either re instate you or it will say they have to pay compensation. Mm. It won't be both. I I just didn't understand it that's come for the advice for you see. Well Well you got you got three months from the date of termination which you can take as effect from the twenty second of June to make a claim to the industrial tribunal. Erm it's very much what I would term a fifty fifty case. The strongest argument we've got is that has got a driving record worse than yours and he has been taken on despite that record. Erm you are of equal management status your abilities are the same erm why should you be differentiated from him. Er that's your strongest argument. If he wasn't there then I would say that you you'd be on a sticky wicket, because most terms of employment say that if you er have a driving licence and you lose it then your employment will automatically finish. Mm. And virtually all contracts of employment where anybody is required to to drive during the course of their work should contain that clause from an employers point of view. Mm. Now you've never had a a contract of employment so that goes in favour as well. Erm we're entitled to ask them for er entitled to ask the tribunal to say what terms of employment wou w should have been. Erm the tribunal may well say that one of those clauses should be if you lose your driving licence you lose your job, so it's a fairly dangerous thing to apply to the tribunal to get terms of employment sorted out. The best advice I can give you is simply to go for unfair dismissal on the basis that you've got two managers who do exactly the same job, there's no need for you to go on site, there are other drivers that could get you there, therefore it's not necessary to finish your job simply because you've lost your licence. Erm even if we're wrong in that then they should have looked at alternative positions within the company which didn't require you to drive erm that's the basic advice at the moment. Yeah. Th the the other thing erm reference that this other manager has not at no occa on no occasion has that car been used for company use. Right. Not even as f far as getting him to work in the morning. Some other employee has to go and fetch him in the morning Yeah. deliver him to work, take him home in the evening. That company company car has never been used for company use. Then the other argument as I can see is that they've led me to believe, I don I know you said that it's automatic twelve month ban, but we just accepted that because I was led to believe that my job was safe. In certain circumstances if it is close it has been Sorry say again? I in certain circumstances if your job's on the line and that Only if only if you're a totter Erm If you've had speeding disqualification er speeding points and you were up for disqualification because you'd totted up twelve points Mm. then you can argue what's called special hardship. You can't do that when it's a drink driving. You can't. I see. It's an automatic twelve months. Yeah. Nothing you can do about that. Has to be a ban. Mm. So I can't criticize the decision of the court on that or or the way the solicitors dealt with it. I mean twelve months is is the minimum period it could have been more. Mm. You can't argue hardship on a drink drive. No. Right well erm so y at the moment have they paid you up to date? What they've paid me wha what I'm entitled to is erm obviously my week's wage that I've worked, fortnight's holiday pay Mm. and then we have what we li call a floating week which is made up of five rest days, you can have them at any time yeah to Yeah. make your third week. Now I've had two of those rest days prior to all this so I would be owed a fortnight's holiday pay plus three rest days. What they've sent me is erm a week's wage and my three rest days but no holiday pay. you're not this so called ex gratia payment. No. I've not contacted them. I mean I suppose I could contact them and say yeah I'll take that. I think you've got to be careful how you word the letter on that because what I don't want you to do is to say yes okay and then find you're blocked on an industrial tribunal application. Mm. So what I would suggest is that we reply to to this for you. Puts them on notice that you've been to see a solicitor. They may withdraw it then. Yeah they might. Mm. That's a risk. At the end of the day it's a matter for you. I mean if you want to make sure you've got that in your hand I would simply say to you You see make sure it's done so that you're not prejudicing your industrial tribunal case by saying that you'll accept the ex gratia payment but you also reserve the right to take legal advice about the termination of your employment. Something along those lines. Mm. You see er what I'm worried about is that erm basically I wanted to see you first before I even answered it before I phoned them up and say yeah okay or wha what have you. Erm the simple reason is I've been signing on, erm they've suspended my unemployment. I've got a wife and two children. Yeah. Does your wife work or not? No. Y y you could say no. How old are your children? Er four and nine. I've got one I pay maintenance on as well. And how much are you paying in maintenance? Well th that's not a court order that's just straight out out of my bank account into her bank account. What do you pay? Ten pound a week. So at the moment with the earning that they paid you up to date two hundred and fifty quid I can't give you reduced advice under the legal aid system at the moment because you're still being paid. As soon as that stops and you've got no income Well that was last week. I've had nothing this week. So you've got no income as of today's date. Er well I don't know. I don't know if I've got that fortnight's holiday pay to come or what. Have you got any savings at all anywhere. Er ha well I've got a bit in my building society account Does th those savings exceed one thousand six hundred and thirty five pounds? I think there's about two grand in there but Mm. I Alright I'll just stop you there. I can't give you reduced cost advice at the moment but it may be that in two or three weeks' time your s situation has changed to the extent where I can. Yeah. Now I can advise you in the office under the green form system if you are eligible for it because you you've got no income coming in and your savings are below one thousand six hundred quid. Right. That covers me for office work to negotiate to try and settle this case. It covers me for the preparation work to an industrial tribunal. It will not cover me for the hearing. Legal aid is not available in any form for industrial tribunal hearings erm so what I usually say is that we assist the client up to the stage where s it means going er to the tribunal itself. Yeah. And then if er you want a so solicitor with you on that day we'll have to come to some arrangement with you privately about the costs. But today's date even that doesn't apply because you you're category's above the level at which I can give you advice. Yeah but that's only because I er I owe a grand in poll tax you see. Right well as soon as you can come to me and say, I've no longer got that amount Mm. we can you sign you up to one of these green forms. I can't do it today. Mm. Erm er basically I'm going to h have to boot you out because I've got somebody else waiting for me . Right that's fine . Erm you've got to make a decision what to do. Er erm I wo obviously make sure you keep hold of those cos I'll want copi of those if you want me to do anything more for you. Mm. Erm I would suggest that if you are going to contact them yourself about this, that you make sure it's done without prejudice. Put it in writing marked, Without prejudice Mm. erm to your rights to apply to an industrial tribunal. Erm and then y you know you get your cash and three months from twenty second of June to do something about it. Yeah. Right. But you would certainly accept it for now then? Yeah I think you've got a case worth pursuing. Mm. I don't know how strong it is because as I say, erm most contracts of employment do include a provision that if somebody h has a driving licence and loses it and driving is part of their work, even if it's only a minor part of their work, then the employer can erm dismiss. Well what they said to me was But your advantage is you've got no em contract of employment. But wh what they said to me was although erm although it's not a driving is not a major part of and your role was changing and whatever that means And you didn't know that did you? Well plus plus the fact that erm it's not that you haven't got one, or it's not that we'd need you to drive it's that you're denying us the privilege of being able to send you. Mm. Well there is some argument in that, but, you know they should be looking at alternatives somebody to drive you out the sites where they , the whole time they would take you there and bring you back. Mm. It seems to apply doesn't it? Plus that other thing that was at you know that it it stated it's a way of getting rid of him without redundancy. Yeah sure. I mean if you can come up with the witnesses that are prepared to stick their head in the noose and say that. That's going to be your problem because they're all still wor working for the company. Mm. But if you can get somebody to come along and say that then er erm y your case gets a lot stronger. Okay? So I'll leave it with you. It's just that I I'm finding it well I'm not. My wife's getting very upset about it, the whole affair and everything like that Mm. And er I don't know whether to it's it's the money aspect of it because if my unemployment's stopped Well we'll stop I mean at eight weeks, say they stop it by erm Twenty six twenty six, it's these days Or up to twenty six anyway . Er do they should give you income support as opposed to unemployment benefit . Yeah but even that it's it's ridiculously low. Yeah. Erm. In terms of h h what's your objective. Er do you want to go back and work for them, is that the m the main thing so you've got your job back, cos if you claim compensation th the basic award is equivalent to redundancy which it sound as though they may well pay about of half that to you. Erm that's if you prove your case. You'd get a basic award equivalent to what would happen if you were made redundant. On top of that you get compensation which is a maximum of ten thousand pounds and depends on erm whether you've got another job, erm whether you've contributed towards your own dismissal, and I think th the tribunal would knock something off for that. A at a guess I would think they would probably give you about three to six months' worth of pay as compensation, if Mm. you proved your case. Mm. So it's not a vast amount in comparison with having no job. No no but it goes somewhere near half way I mean a question of whether you can go back the the reasoning being that I've gone into the aspects of erm income support and that and basically i it's about seventy pound a week to live on . Yeah, yeah. Now which is upsetting my wife. But in the mean time my wages I've had last week have been spent Mm. I don't know I don't know how long income support's going to be, I don't know how long my next pay packet's gonna be or what have you. The sooner you're on income support again I can sign you up to one of these green forms, so I can give you some advice on that. You can? Yeah. I can then advise you. Well I filled all the forms in and that it's just a matter of delivering . Yeah. Your capital at the moment takes you just over so you know once your capital's below sixteen hundred quid Mm. I can then sign you up to that. Mm. It won't cost you for my advice. Well what I'll do is I'll stick it in my diary for a couple of weeks. Yeah. Would you Y Would you recommend that I got rid of some of it then by paying my poll tax or doing something with it or use the money to live off? It's very difficult to advise you isn't it? I d th the natural inclination is to say use it t to live off because you don't have a problem over the next twenty six weeks. Mm. Mm. And then again if they pay me this money as an ex gratia payment. You have to tell the D S S. Or, I've got to get rid of that as well haven't I? Mm. But I think you've got a case which I I would say is fifty fifty. It's one that we can perhaps put a bit of pressure on if we issue an application for you by getting ACAS involved and seeing whether ACAS can either get you back there or er get you a compensation off them. Yeah. So they'll be in trouble to start with cos they had no contracts of employment out at that time. Yeah. So what do you want me to do for now then? Well you follow up what you want to do with the company when you've thought about what I've said to you Yeah. erm let me know what you do Yeah. erm and then I can put together Contact you within the next fortnight something Yeah. like that? Yeah and I'll put together er a tribunal claim for you. Get it to you for checking. Thanks for your help. Okay. Okay then. Right. Just let me know what you want to do and we'll put it together for you. Okay then. Thanks then. Cheers. Right erm yeah look at the congress. Just wanna wrap this up now erm by bringing in the erm example of Greece. Er the er er Greek revolt. Erm just to recap on that slightly. It started round about eighteen twenty one although actually there there'd been erm er simmering discontent in the amongst the Christians in the Balkan area for some time. We we needn't worry too much that thought but erm the Greek revolt itself in eighteen twenty to one to round about eighteen twenty five had gone on without any European intervention. To some extent this was due to the influence of the er of of . Erm who was able to hold er the Russians back from intervening on the grounds that it would be er seen as intervention in a er in in in a revolt. Erm the revolt is of course essentially a nationalist revolt. I suppose there are liberal overtones in it but it's essentially a nationalist revolt. After eighteen twenty five of course erm the death of Alexandria especially of Nicholas Russia is more inclined to intervene especially as the Greek rebels are being defeated because of the mention the intervention of of erm Turkey's ally erm er Egypt Egypt a a a a problem for the Turkish empire . The ruler of Egypt Mohammed Ali intervened in the revolt on behalf of Turkey with the promise of territory in the area. Erm and the revolt begins to er er er crumble. Erm so Russia decides to intervene and at this point erm is especially concern of Britain. And the upshot is that in eighteen twenty six Britain suggests in essence holding a congress to discuss the er er Greek revolt. Erm Britain and France are very concerned about the prospect of Russian intervention. Erm And in essence a kind of congress is held at St Petersburg. It's not trotted out in the old history books as one of the conferences, or one of the congresses rather. In fact it's, it's more often referred to correctly as a conference. Erm it consisted of the ambassadors of the great, of the, of of the great powers erm er meeting together at St Petersburg. Erm it's there's a certain irony about all this. As we know erm Canning had to a great extent welcomed the end of the congress system. His famous comment about things are back to as they should be every nation for herself and god for us all. Erm but in twenty six he in a sense does a U turn. And he's concerned to get great power co-operation to solve the Greek er er problem. The other irony is of course that up until at the previous congresses like Verona erm Britain hadn't attended. At this one Austria doesn't attend. And same, well and and Prussia as well for that matter but they're not so, so important. At this conference the great powers involved are Britain, Russia and France. Of course the other irony as well is that the powers that meet at the conference at St Petersburg er the powers decide they will intervene in Greece. And they're intervening of course here on the side of a revolt which is going against the grain of erm of certainly for Russia of course of er of of the attitudes of the eighteen erm er eighteen teens early eighteen twenties. The idea was basically to produce some kind of semi-independent Greece. Er of course as we know or we might, some of us might know from er Brit. his. that erm from British History that erm in eighteen er erm the Turks refused to co-operate in this. And erm in when was it eighteen twenty seven at the Battle of Navareno the British navy sunk the Turkish fleet. Erm thus to a great extent erm ending the erm er the prospects of Turkish success. What what was that battle again? Navareno. Navar Avokea or Navareno Bay erm it's more, I think it's more technically known as Avokea See if they've got a reference to the . Oops. Oh no it is Nav I'm I'm sorry. I'm confused aren't I? It is Navareno. Yeah erm again you needn't worry too much about the er erm about the ramifications of this Kenning died in twenty seven and Britain to some extent disentangled herself from the Greek revolt but the upshot was that in eighteen thirty Greece became an independent state. Her independence guaranteed by Britain, Russia and France. Okay erm I suppose we ought to mention in this context as well er Belgium. I'll probably refer to it again later on . Er in Belgium of course in eighteen thirty erm a nationalist revolt broke out in response really to the French revolution of that year. Which we'll be looking at briefly in a sec. Erm this was a direct challenge to the Vienna settlement of course. As we know at the Vienna settlement, Belgium was put under er er er er essentially under Dutch rule. Erm Britain and France were prepared to defend Belgian independence. The other powers were er at odds with Britain and France ie Austria, Russia Prussia. So again we see a split in the er in in in amongst the great powers. What? I just It's Britain and France were prepared to support Belgian independence. Erm Russia, Prussia Austria not. And we are seeing in eighteen thirty a significant gap between on the one hand erm the western powers and on the other hand the east european or the central and eastern european powers. In eighteen thirty of course, the east european powers were unable erm er to intervene. Er Russia had erm a revolt in Poland to face. Austria faced disturbances in Italy. Prussia of course couldn't really act by herself. But we are seeing a widening gap. And indeed erm in the eighteen thirties we see the formation in the west of the so called quadruple alliance not to be confused with the great quadruple alliance of eighteen er thirteen. The quadruple alliance consisted of Britain, France, Spain and Portugal which had by now got sort of liberal constitutional governments. Well it's erm it's erm it's about, I think it's about eighteen thirty three thirty four. Doesn't really matter. It's the earliest, er early eighteen thirties. And on the other hand, Austria, Russia and er Prussia it's Munchengratz isn't it. forgetting me er me Munchen Yep. In fact they may even have a date for you here. Yeah eighteen thirty three Munchengratz. It's an agreement to defend each other against the threat of revolution. Yep. Erm So we are seeing by er the early eighteen thirties something of a formalized split between the er er the powers of er the quadruple and then the er quintsimple erm er alliance. I'm referring obviously to the quadruple alliance of eighteen er er fifteen. Okay perhaps we can er er wrap a few things up on the erm on the er Vienna er settlement and the congress system itself. What actually happened in Belgium? Belgium became independent. Sorry yeah. Belgium became independent. Erm it's ind , it's independence was recognized fully by all the major European powers by eighteen thirty nine. It was regarded as erm it was one of Palmerston's, one of Palmerston's great triumphs wasn't it? Isn't it the case that Palmerston when he was on his death bed had the clause to the Belgian treaty read to him to cheer him up. Okay erm let's perhaps make a few comments then about the Vienna settlement itself. The old er the old kind of chestnut question is was it a success or a failure? I I I'd say with the, with the revamped exam you're not likely, you're not likely to get a question like that. Was Vienna successful? But you're gonna get a much wider question if it comes up on this and erm perhaps in incorporating the congress system but let's approach it from that, that perspective anyway. I think the best way of looking at this is to kind of take an open-ended version of what the Vienna settlement is all about. Er not just the treaty in eighteen fifteen but the whole congress system erm after eighteen fifteen onwards and into the eighteen twenties and such like. Erm I suppose the er the classic interpretation of the er the Vienna settlements is that erm in in the nineteenth century was that it was a failure and there was a, there was a kind of er consensus beginning quite early actually. There's a kind of consensus view that in the language of ten sixty six and all that the Vienna settlement was a bad thing. Erm and I say this view is, is in some respects being er erm er expressed relatively early on. Erm and you even get it associated with leading rulers or states er statesmen of the day. For instance erm somebody like Napoleon the Third. He emerged as president of France as Prince Louis Napoleon in eighteen forty eight and he er he erm achieves power by coup d'etat and becomes emperor in eighteen fifty two. Napoleon the Third is someone who's er who sees it as one of his objectives to undo the Vienna settlement. Erm and you've got other leading figures of the day. Count Cavor prime minister of Piedmont in eighteen er fifty. Erm and someone who's described as perhaps one of the architects of Italian unity. He becomes the prime minister of of a relatively united Italy erm in eighteen er eighteen sixty. Cavor is someone who's er Right. Cavor is someone who's hostile er to the Vienna settlement. Let alone of course large numbers of liberal stroke nationalist erm revolutionaries within Europe in the eighteen er twenties, thirties and forties. The various national secret societies and various nationalist movements like er Young Italy and there's even one called Young Europe which is kind of a pretty, pretty much catch-all one. But the various nationalist societies or the revolutionary purpose. They're all hostile to the Vienna settlement. And that perhaps er having mentioned the nationalist erm societies this perhaps gives us a clue to it. The the view was taken that the Vienna settlement was hostile to liberalism and nationalism. That was the view taken that the Vienna settlement was hostile to liberalism. It was hostile to nationalism. And therefore it was wrong because the argument goes that liberalism and nationalism are the great triumphant er ideologies of the nineteenth century and the Vienna settlement's not only wrong, but it was historically erm in a sense doomed because it was trying to oppose the growing erm unstoppable er ideologies of er erm of er of Europe. By the way erm it's always rather amusing when you see in the old history books the er the idea that erm that, to give an example, somebody like Metternich. You get the old idea that Metternich ignored liberalism and nationalism. Erm that's a very, a very misleading way of putting it. Metternich in many ways thought of little else except liberalism and nationalism. The Vienna settlement didn't ignore liberalism and nationalism. It tried its best to clobber it. It tried its best to actually er suppress it. And don't forget erm perhaps we ought to say a word on the er on the conservative's side here. Erm don't forget it's people like Metternich and indeed Castlereagh and the other erm er figures at the Vienna settlement. They were looking back in eighteen fifteen at twenty odd years of war and revolution. And if that was you know you could, I supp , you could argue that the French revolution had been built on notions of liberalism and it had encouraged nationalism in Europe. And therefore you could associate liberalism and nationalism with war, terror erm and perhaps therefore it wasn't all that desirable. Obviously as well in Metternich's er er, in Metternich's case nationalism would be the end of the Austrian empire. Because the Austrian empire, the Habsburg empire was a conglomeration of large numbers of different nationalities. Nationalism affected other great powers as well. Erm Russia Russia in eighteen fifteen grabbed Poland. Prussia had, still had chunks of Polish territory little bits of it. Prussia of course more especially more especially Prussia feared a united Germany. If you brought, if you got a united Germany then Prussia would simply be a small part of that united Germany. So it's important to note that nationalism the prospect of nationalism was seen as undesirable by the er major European powers. It didn't nationalism had no erm wouldn't affect France as such. Didn't affect Britain. Well it affected Ireland. There was always the problem of Ireland. I think it's a bit wrong perhaps to say it didn't affect Britain. Perhaps it didn't affect Britain at this time. But as we know from British history one of the understated reasons why erm there was a lot of hostility to home rule for Ireland in Britain was because of the fear of the creation of a hostile state er erm off, off Britain's shore. Erm so that's one aspect of Vienna. It was seen as being opposed to liberalism, as opposed to nationalism and perhaps there were, there were er, there were, there were good reasons er for that. By the way erm are we relatively clear what's meant by liberalism and nationalism within this context? Should I perhaps digress and say a little word erm er about this? Perhaps I will. It's perhaps of some interest to us that erm these to great -isms, liberalism and nationalism I think we can see them as products of the French revolution. Or indeed products of perhaps enlightened attitudes, certainly with the case of liberalism. In a sense, if we think of the context of say the late eighteenth early nineteenth century perhaps more, perhaps more specifically we think of the er, of the er erm early nineteenth century. Liberalism and nationalism are seen as two sides of the same coin. They were seen as inextricably bound up. Erm all liberals were nationalists. And to er, I suppose by and large, vice versa as well. Erm as I've said the er the the two er known as the two -isms. The two ideologies are by and large products of the revolution or in the case of liberalism perhaps of the of enlightened attitudes. By liberalism liberalism meant a number of things. It meant primarily constitutional government. It meant primarily constitutional government. Written constitutional government. Liberalism. Oh. It meant by and large constitut , it meant, it meant primarily rather constitutional government. Liberals would look to for instance the con the United States' Constitution. They would look to the er er to the constitution of of of France in say seventeen ninety one or the more radicals amongst them would look erm the more er the more radical liberal if that's not er, if that's not a, not a contradiction in terms, don't think it is. They would look to the constitution of eighteen, of seventeen ninety three. Others, other in nineteenth century Europe looked to the constitutions granted in eighteen twelve for instance in Spain and in Naples. These aren't er er er they tend to be a bit ignored in history, these. But they're of interest. In eighteen, in in late eighteen twelve erm with the prospect perhaps of Napoleonic rule in difficulties you see in some of Napoleon's, some of the client states of Napoleonic Europe Spain, Naples you see constitutions being granted which are are pretty democratic actually. And th the they're looked to by er European liberals as as model constitutions. When you get a revolt in Spain in the eighteen twenties. What is the revolt in favour of? The revolt is in favour of the constitution of eighteen twelve. So they believe in constitutional governments. Erm now obviously in the context of constitutional governments it's not, one can imagine having a constitutional form of government without, without a parliamentary system but erm it's perhaps a bit of a stretch of the imagination. But they mean by, erm constitutional government they also er er liberals also believed in the notion of parliamentary government. It's very much connected to late enlightenment notions that the only valid government would be representative government. Other forms of government are in a sense illegitimate. Absolute rule. Monarchical rule. Well not necessarily, I mean, unless the monarch was was was er, was part of the constitutional set up. But representative government was the only really legitimate form of government. Of course, there was debate amongst liberals on how much representation there would be. Or to put it, erm erm erm more simplistically how, how many people would have the vote. Erm we see this within the context of the reform movement in Britain after eighteen fifteen. Where you've got reformers ranging from those who want the household suffrage er household suffrage. A vote to all householders. Across to those who wanted erm erm a universal male suffrage. Erm one man one vote. Erm European liberalism is based upon, is based upon context as well of secularism. Or to perhaps er put it more to put it, to make it more erm obvious anti-clericalism. This didn't necessarily mean hostility to religion as such. But the notion of secularism, the notion of anti-clericalism meant that within the liberal states erm the er er there would be a separation of church and state. Erm the church would have no role within the state as being say in a erm erm in other words there would be erm the catholic church in in erm in say er a state like France er should not be the established church. There would be a separation of church and state. And by and large the activities of church and state would be separatist. The church would play no role in the affairs of state. Erm Other notions erm of liberalism of course again which are perhaps pretty obvious freedom of speech and implied in that freedom of religion, freedom of expression, that kind of thing. But in essence they're the main er er the main aspects of er of of er what was meant by liberalism in the er in in er the nineteenth century. Erm it perhaps doesn't strike us as being very revolutionary but of course it depends from the context that you're in erm to perhaps some of the absolute rulers of er of er perhaps, this was revolutionary. Erm What about nationalism? Nationalism we perhaps some of the er er some of the erm concepts of nationalism appearing even before the French revolution. You begin to see er in erm in parts of Europe in the er later eighteenth century a growing emphasis upon er er upon language, literature of of certain areas. I'm thinking of Italy here primarily. Erm as it develops under the impact of the French revolution and Napoleonic rule and then later what nationalism came to be seen as it's the basically the idea that erm that people of a common culture history and language should occupy perhaps that's the wrong word. Er should er should have a separate state. Should not be ruled by a foreign power. So a people with a common culture, history, language should live in a separately defined state. And certainly should not live under the rule of a foreign er power. And our classic examples of course there erm of of of this situation in in post eighteen fifteen Europe are Germany, Italy Poland . Now I've I've suggested that erm in the early nineteenth century, liberalism and nationalism are very much bound up. Er all, all nationalists in a sense are liberals, or liberals are nationalists. One aspect of this of course, one reason er er behind this is is the French revolution. Let's not forget that erm under Napoleonic rule you do see the creation of a so-called king of Italy. It's northern Italy. Erm Napoleon happens to be it's king and and it is very much a client of France. We see the creation of of of the confederation of the Rhine. A a kind of erm united Germany. Erm within, in these states as well you,th the the nationalism of them, although it's in the French direction. It's associated as well with the ideology of Napoleonic France. Erm which does imply an attack on the old feudal regimes er er er previously existing. Erm so after eighteen fifteen there is this link between liberalism and nationalism. I don't wanna go much er er further ahead on this for the moment. We do tend to see liberalism and nationalism parting company. Especially after eighteen forty eight. And as ag I will, I'll be returning to this obviously in consideration of Italy and Germany, but it is perhaps worth making this point now. You do see liberalism and nationalism parting company. Erm and you do get this growing awareness that not all of that while all liberals might be nationalists. All right thinking liberals in Europe from Gladstone in England you know. All right thinking liberals support nationalist aspirations. Gladstone a great advocate of Italian unity for instance. Gladstone an advocate of er of of Balkan nationalism. He wanted Turkey out of the Balkan er er out of south eastern Europe. So all good European liberals are nationalists. It starts to become apparent, very very clear that not all nationalists are good liberals. In fact far from it. Erm if the choice is between securing er your er securing your own state. Securing the nationalist goal and ignoring the liberal goal, many nationalists will go for the nationalist goal. If the price of bringing about your united state is the dumping of liberals, then so be it. In that sense nationalism of course er it perhaps becomes a more dynamic and problematic ideology in nineteenth century Europe. So I I've digressed er from er considering what erm erm er what this has got to do with the er erm congress of Vienna but I think it's er hopefully er er a worthwhile erm er digression. Erm let me turn er briefly to the those who have something good to say about the Vienna settlement. It's had it's supporters er one is always reminded that one of it's key supporters, the former American er er secretary of state and and at the moment, globe-trotting world expert er Henry Kissinger. Kissinger erm who began life as a er er as professor of history. His first major work was a defence of the Vienna settlement. Erm and it it it, it has been defended on a number of grounds. It's been argued by it's supporters that it ushered in an era of peace. Erm At it's most extreme interpretation there's an argument that erm, that the Vienna settlement was a factor in maintaining peace in Europe between eighteen fifteen and nineteen fourteen. Because it's extreme supporters suggest that that it wasn't until nineteen fourteen that a war broke out involving all the great European powers. Erm one would argue that's er that's er, that's an extreme erm er view. Erm there are wars in Europe after eighteen fifteen. And some people might argue the Vienna settlement was a factor in bringing about some of these wars. So it's again, unfortunately it's it comes down in one of these erm pays your money takes your choice erm er arguments. But it is worth making the point that for instance if we take a look after eighteen fifteen of, at the wars. There's war between Russia and Turkey in er eighteen er thirty when Russia militarily intervenes in the Turkish revolt. Of course there's the war war between Russia and Turkey as well in the in in in the eighteen seventies. But for the moment I'm just looking perhaps nearer to the Vienna settlement itself. Erm there's war between er you get the Crimean war between Russia on the one hand and Great Britain and France on the other. And it's always worth remembering about the Crimean erm episode that Austria in essence intervenes on the side er er intervenes not so much on the side of Britain and France but against Russia. Austria played a decisive though non-military role in er in in the Vienna, in in, in the er in the Crimean war. Erm and then we have the so- called nationalist er wars. For instance eighteen sixty four between Denmark and Prussia and Austria. Technically Prussia and Austria here representing the German confederation. It's a war concerning the vexed and famous Schleswig-Holstein dispute of course which I'm sure we're all familiar with. The erm eighteen sixty six war between Prussia and Austria. These are, this is the war which essentially brings about German er unity under Prussian erm erm control. Prussia is the victor of course of this war. shock win for Prussia. Shock win for Prussia! What a kind of er foo sport's page headline isn't it, yeah? . If what you're suggesting is there was an expectation that Prussia might not win the war. Yeah. And given the fact don't forget, it's always worth remembering this and I've I've made, I'll be making the point later on. Most of the German states supported Prussia in the Austrian Prussian war. Including the states. Supported Austria sorry. Supported Austria. Not supported Prussia. I think . Now of course there are the wars for Italian erm er unification. Eighteen fifty nine. A war between Au between Austria on the one hand and France and technically Piedmont on the other. Although the Piedmontese army didn't arrive until the battles were over . There was war between on the one hand Austria and the other hand France and Piedmont. Erm and then of course in a sense almost bringing these things together the, the major and perhaps most influential of these er wars. The war between France what is normally referred to as the Franco-Prussian war. I suppose to be technical it ought to be the er it ought to be referred to as the Franco- German war. It ought to be a war between France and a united Germany. But as it is, it is primarily Prussia that's er involved. The war between France and Prussia. Eighteen seventy to seventy one. The argument is, is that okay these are, that certainly erm we see a number of wars in er nineteenth century Europe. But the argument is well they're not very big wars are they? They're they're short er wars. They range I mean er the the er the er Prussian Austro-Prussian war of eighteen sixty six is is referred to as what the six weeks war and and erm the five, five weeks of that or or or whatever were were involved in peace negotiations. The war itself was just three days. Erm there was only one battle in it you know but That erm that the war between France and erm and and and Austria was fought in June erm essentially in June of er of eighteen er fifty nine. They are short wars, the argument is. The same with the Dan Danish Austro. Danish war the wars in Denmark and Austria and Prussia one might imagine a rather short- lived er war. How long did it take ? Well not very long. I suppose it's erm in in that sense erm er I I I I can see what you're, this, I don't think that's a factor in in in the, in the erm in in the fact that these wars are short. I think these wars are short because they're fought for limited objectives. They don't tend to escalate. Because the, because only one or two of the powers are involved in them. Or three perhaps in in in in the Crimea. Erm Nevertheless, to some extent the wars reflect the breakdown of the Vienna settlement. So it's a kind of a strange argument to suggest on the one hand the Vienna settlement was a factor in in preventing wars between all the great , er major war involving all the great powers. Erm when at the same time the Vienna settlement appears to be crumbling like after er erm after eighteen thirty or something. Of course erm it's perhaps, perhaps it's looking slightly to the er historical future it it's er it it was bad news in one sense because erm there came to be a view taken in Europe that wars between the great powers would be short, sharp wars. And hence the feeling in nineteen fourteen when the first world war broke out that it would er all be over by Christmas. Because it, cos people were you know erm as is often said generally of of a of a general staffs of armies. They're always fighting the previous war. There was this view that the first world war would be rather like a re-run of some of these wars at the end of the nineteenth century. Erm which didn't turn out to be the case. Erm so I would say, I'll just wrap this up erm on on erm on on on this point the er by making by introducing the fact that some, some historians have argued that these wars were short. Okay they had limited objectives. They were correcting the Vienna settlement. That's in a way how you can perhaps square the circle. You can argue these wars were corrective. Erm And the other factor that that's introduced as well is that the powers got into the habit of meeting in congresses. And you do see erm in the nineteenth century erm the powers still meeting together. For instance at the end of the Crimean war in eighteen fifty six the peace treaty that's er er that's held is actually a congress. All the powers attended the eighteen fifty six treaty of Paris. It's not just a a peace treaty signed by it's not just, er it's not just a direct signing of a peace treaty between say France Britain, Russia. It turns into a congress. The congress of Berlin eighteen seventy eight. When it appears that there might be a major outbreak in erm in in in in south eastern Europe. The powers do perhaps get into the habit of erm of erm of meeting together. Okay anyway, we'll er leave it at that then for the moment. Of course. Of course. It wouldn't be the same place if I wasn't. It wouldn't be the same place if I wasn't. . I never should have . What's this? Oh she's . . Give me strength. er it was my stomach. Mhm. I think I must have picked up a virus . Sure did. Cos I was passing it so she gave me a couple of tablets. She er gave me some . Mm. Yeah. Still a bit of diarrhoea in the mornings. Still a bit loose in the morning are you? Aye. Still loose in the mornings. That's the worst I've ever had mind. the older you get th y you imagine it's worse. You know? Once it's past twenty one. Aye. Well you maybe think it's worse . in the morning but then after the diarrhoea stopped it was a kind of sickness you know ? You you'd bru you'd got nothing left there to do anything else with cos you'd That's right. And you were That's right. feeling as it were ready to come up the way you were swallowing it you could feel it. Oh it's . The wife come in she stays up around the corner and keeps an eye on the on a Saturday. on a Sunday though. I've made a soup. . She says I don't know . . So when Bobby says, are you gonna give me, are you gonna give Aha. Aye. .I tell her and she says, well look, get another line from your doctor. Er I phoned her at work at the tribunal. Aha. I phoned her and I says to her I says,. She said, well look, go back to your doctor she says. Don't quote me, she says. Mm. I said, if you'd have said what you should have said at the bloody tribunal. One of these capsules after your breakfast in the morning Mm. and after your cup of tea at five o'clock. Right. settle. Will it? Settle the . a cup of coffee that I'm ready to get on. That's right. First thing Yes. make a cup of coffee in the morning you know. Aye. Well that's why you're to take that as soon as you get, as soon as you start morning. this morning what I'd done this morning was just dancing about cos I, I had to go to the toilet I couldn't wait and I was dancing about and I said, I'm not gonna make it. with that cup of coffee and, oh yes you are. Oh She's a bad woman. She's a bad woman. She is. I was purple. That's terr oh that's terrible. Oh that's hard. And that's . Aye. Mm. Right Alec. Cheerio then. Cheerio now . The twenty-third of the fourth What. who is it, then. We'll have to put it somewhere with your gr great knees under the table. What. Put your great knees Miss put your great knees under the table. Aren't I, , she must try again. to do is get your great knees under the table. Don't remember. Great knees. Your great dark knees. Why do you erm, great knees aw. Don't like the way,your basically Does anyone Duncan can get mine. I might Yeah. in a minute. Sit down Where's the case for the pen? Why did you ask me for. where's the case for the pen? I ain't got it. So who had it, then. Get it then. No. Get it, then. No. I did I didn't put it there. Here are. I didn't put it there. Here are. here are. I'm Illiterate band. Ah. Ah, look. Who's that then. I don't know. Ann's got a baby. No, no, no, no,ah, yes. Nah. He looks like He looks like Oh no. Come on, get this done and Dean come on. hurry up Do you want Does she? Oh nah, is it,sister. Nah,I think it's Say that was I can Who's Why do you think Shakespeare Because he feels like it. Oh no dribbling. nah, your mum. his got a cut on his hand. Oh, shut-up. Philip's not read no more. Yeah, I noticed that and I thought Get your great knees under the table and move them man. You take up all the space, man. Yeah. Dark horse. Right, what's going on there? Whatever you've done, stop doing it now. Nothing yet, sir, I'm fixing my pen. My pen that I've been working. I lied. Why gonna play with the water 'Cos he felt like it. Must have been Come on, Annie, let me have You don't like me to drive, like this, the post So they sing What part do you work. He's doing your What. you know. Yeah, but it's not touching my mouth, look. There's a straight Open your hand, open your hand. What. Straight, in other words When was this broken. That's what I'm doing, you silly bastard. Right, broke, what like that. Mm. Yeah, about one per cent of the air guns,ninety-nine, summat round there. guns. It's not touching, look. got that,pen, er, got like that with your pen. touched inside of your mouth. you're The excellence of the You know I'm the one,Come on, let's go, man. bleeding, man. tell 'em. It hurts, it hurts, Does it hurt still hurts, dunnit it. Mm. Can you move them fingers there? Go like that, like that. Shut up. What's up with you. Idiot. Let's take a look. I am. You know, you must wonna, you must wanted with it. Mm. I dunno. Prat. Where did I put that. What of the first question, man. It's Shut up, I knew that, I knew that. The line, you haven't even written the lines from the crap that you sold,. What. You sold . What. You haven't got to go back you're supposed to write what scene, what Yeah, you're supposed to write books are you You don't on the book. on the books. You're supposed on the book. Yes. Why how's the way it's written in the book, then. I think you're supposed to write, you supposed to start on the Acts one Scene one, line four Line four. That's what you want on I've done mine. Why do you think Why do you think you're such an illiterate bum. Why do you think. Why do you think I don't know, I just said it, I don't Why you do think you're such an illiterate bum? Depends Why do you think, why do you think, why do you think, why do, that's what No. No. Why do you think you're such an illiterate bum?do you like that. illiterate, he can write or read. Will you stop That's why Okay, nobody would know, would it. looking at. No, I don't think Look, shut up. What you doing. your nose. Yeah, it's are you Ones, ones. Why do you think Look,shut up, man. What, what Don't don't lean over me unless you want my elbow in your nose Okay okay. Look, nothing can What you doing, man. By the way, does everybody your work, Yeah no. Oh, yeah, it's my bag actually. I put it in my out the work that hasn't been marked and handed in in. Okay, okay. my whole folder. No, it's in my folder, actually, in my folder. work and handed in and haven't marked it. work, all the work we've done. Yeah, I'm No, no, you corrected, you corrected some of our work. can correct it. So I can just take my folder, sir. Shut up, I've done more work than you. What are you doing taking that folder, anyway. Where's your review, Yeah. So what's does this mean, here. What does this scene tell you about the Well, apparently that it's a gonna be based on superstition. It's gonna be a play of erm,well based on the supernatural,supernatural's gonna . Right, just give me what you have to mark Pardon. Er. That sounds great. I just write, I just write I think the book is really well written and it's that needed to be I don't know, do I need a black pen, man. impression Yeah. I need to get in In 'ere sir Getting out all the work that you haven't No, that you haven't marked, you haven't marked, ain't it. No,the mark remains to be It has to do, it has to be all bits, that's what that's all you do. couple of pages, right. Just . What. A couple of pages. Yes. there to do. Rough, innit. Only done one Hey guys, listen here, let me have, let me have the work that you've done. Hey, come on, quiet everybody, all those the work that you've done, so I can bring it back. I don't need about that, tell him I ain't finished it yet. What. What you say, I haven't got on my face,nothing about you Shut up. Oh yeah, I get, you got a six hundred innit. You got a six hundred? Turn it down, yeah. Have you got a six hundred? No. Me, no. Alright That'll be good actually teenage conversation chatting up a girl. Yeah, we're gonna put you on a T V series Mm. Mm. We are. Oh, Why is here, hear him talk. What's that. Talk a lot of rubbish. eh ha. sound like a ha ha ha ha. Yeah. Yeah, and my dad's now president of London shire. Didn't know that word. President of London. And he's also got a sixty-five magnum Yeah. And he shoots it whenever someone comes. Yeah, and I got four Rottweilers. And Ten Pit Bulls. the best, don't mess with the best till ye passed your test, don't need to mess with the best. Yeah, alright. Shut up. Don't mess with the best, till you passed your test, and if you passed your test, you can mess with the best oi could you rap. No. No you can't. Simple as that. I am a rapper, wicked, wicked rapper. I am a wicked rapper, wicked wicked rapper. You can't test this. I am a wicked wicked Shut up. Yeah. What. Put that back. Yeah you sound like. Is it recording? Mhm. I want Give me the money talk rubbish. we know who's an idiot. idiot can you hear me get out from under the table get out from under the table You're on drugs. to make that spastic about. You are going No. Er. Am I gonna need them? Ah, maybe. understand that. That's right. She'll take your disks to do something to get a bit more have fun. Yeah, come on. Come with you. Yeah. Yeah, come on. You told him that thing. Yeah, that's time ago, mate, just come We've been through ours, we've been through ours a couple of times. He thinks that we don't talk to him. Oh, not a lot I've been around this house for upstairs, ages. When I walk down there, it's not that far. What's that a condom? Yeah, he was stay there. What. I don't know. gonna stay there long. I know, but crap conversation. We'll Have you, have you seen him since that time when you said to him about coming. No. No. So he's wouldn't it be funny if he got Yeah. Say gonna slap Slap us. slap Yeah. Mm. No he used to get his mum with the brookstick. I see his dad No. Hello, hello. He's the one, do a bit of thingy the one That's alright. They cook rotten chicken every day. What? They cook rotten chicken every day. Rotten chicken. man,stinks like rotten chicken. What does Reg, Reg used to treat his mum badly. She used to get in trouble. Who is this. Yeah. Young boy always used to muck about with and our friend put big sideburns down there, draw Er. Yeah. Reg in the bathroom It's no, it I beat him up, in a little book he just everyone with with that. Like the woman, drawing something old woman, there. Yeah, you've got telling you. himself. Oh, It's not what he put on a woman, he put a on a woman, or something like that. Old woman walking down the street, right, and he stuck it on her back, or something like that. Yeah, she must have shit herself. And he was running around, in the streets being silly, then he ran into shops, stole something, then came out. So You just, you just But he's a laugh, But he's a laugh. He's a fool. He hardly gets caught up Are you a friend? Don't know. Why did you for. Messing about too much. Bringing his dick out of his pocket. I don't think friends he he knows I've done that once Yeah,Because the over him, ah, you've got a small dick, you've got a small dick, like we're saying that to him. And he goes, do you think small and take it He must have got a lecture, then. I remember fucki he's a bit Yeah, he used to be like this Flat, flat thing like this. He's a bit mad. I thought there was a somewhere, because you know, whathisname you that black boy he used to have a toy that Yeah, yeah. That helped He was a bit of a You know which get it off you. No. Well, then you give Give you that No. Have you got You haven't. No. You got my version, Doesn't work. that I've got, well, it works on my computer, it works someone else's computer, but on one Doesn't work on mine, doesn't copy Exactly, on some people's computers, it don't work and I don't understand that. And that, you try that computer it doesn't work. When you get this,why didn't you get a four hundred. I don't Mm. Can you get it from a Why not. Why not. Yeah, from the shop, if you get any hassle I don't mind paying a bit more pound more. Yeah, that's what I mean. a hundred pound more, you could say and then you get less hassle Yeah, that's true. Or even even, if they show you a receipt, you don't know if it's stolen or not. Mm. like that. I get it from Mm. but,I save it to you, er, just in case Na. I can get is that, I have to borrow about, be about fifty pound, summat like Do you think erm, Japanese convertor pardon me,better than anything. No. You don't reckon it's the best, you get best You are at the moment, the best thing you get is to be in the top hundred. Yeah, but, I don't At the moment. Yeah. But I don't, I don't but at the moment there so, the games they've sold, there's no games before, before there is gonna be really good games for the twelve hundred, yeah, before they start coming out. Stuff like Mega C D and all that's, gonna come out, which is good, probably gonna be better than the twelve hundred. Yeah. That's why I'm not sure if I'd buy the twelve hundred. What apart from the C D The twelve hundred's good The twelve hundred's good, yeah, but until the game, the good games start coming out, until they programme it. They're making them already now. Ah, they're making them, but at the moment, have yer, when. When I get four weeks ago. Oh, I see. Why did Why? My friend Oh A G oh, To do with a transport problem what got the original. No, not the original, copied. 'cos I hate it when they just make stupid, it's a good computer, like, the stuff that's in this is very expensive but start coming out, stuff like, you know, Mega C D's probably, Yeah. Mega C D and all that's gonna be That's quite Mega C Ds crap. Oh, Mega C Ds good. Rubbish. Mega C D is not It's crap. C Ds Yeah, it'll turn off C Ds Yeah, but that hasn't come out yet, but No, but. for ages. Is that It has. It has. It has. It has. Showed it in a magazine. Showed a picture of it in a magazine. What compact. I don't what it was. They've made it, anyway. And and, whathisname's gonna buy it. He says he's gonna buy it. And get released in England at all for years, next year. How do you now? you just have to get input. You can get, you can get well before you letters out You were able to get super Yeah. Similar line, innit. You can get, you can get a C D. getting a Japanese convertor. Yeah, you might just, you can get a Mega C D. Just get the You can get What about Yeah. Yeah, but he's got cousins, like,you've got, Yeah. cousins in Japan so he sends them games but, you can them if you want. Right, like I said, I'd be a bit cautious of getting a twelve hundred. Why? I don't know, I mean,loa , new computers come out all the time. Nothing to beat the twelve hundred. Shh, yeah. Yeah, that that's what I'm saying. Nothing for a long time like the five hundred. Yeah, like the five hundred Even though there was better technology, still Yeah, look how stupid were. He five hundred which was a good And then it went five hundred plus. Exact five hundred plus. Have you looked it. Even the five hundred There almost the same. Even the five hundred plus is the same as the five hundred. Yeah, I know, I know it is. difference is. Then they go to the stupid six hundred which is the same as that. Exactly, exactly, so what you're gonna, you're gonna keep waiting until, it's, it's gonna keep coming out, so you'll have to buy twelve hundred. So you'll twenty-two hundred for Yeah. In the, in the be between the twelve hundred and the four thousand. Yeah, four megabyte four megabyte. Get that. Yeah, that's How much difference is that gonna be? What's the difference gonna be? Yeah, but I think you gotta make specifically. Well, it's gonna be faster . So, you can make it faster, you don't really need it faster. Are they gonna make it specifically About thirty megabytes, 'cos it's twic it's be, it's processing being doubled compared to a th a normal Yeah, I that. So it's gonna be about thirty megahertz. I worked out about thirty-three It's good Yeah. But what I'm saying is, be a bit careful. where to find one. What you gonna d right if they bring out a twelve hundred plus, so what. Twelve hundred plus. That's gonna be, hardly any difference. Yes. The only thing I might not, it 'cause they said they might make one with a C D R O M drive. Yeah, they're making Built in. Might make it with a better C Ds. No, I hope they might make a new Yeah, but C D T V Two, is only, it's only C D but It's just a console. It's a c you've seen a pic , you seen a picture of that? Yeah, I've heard that making a console. It's old. Yeah. The picture. Two hundred pounds under, under two hundred pounds, it's gonna be. It's erm, It's a console, it's not A megabyte. Yeah. Does it have a keyboard. You sure. No, it's a console. Console, C D. You probably could get a keyboard, but Er actually, if I had the money, I'd keep my five hundred, but I think that's what How long is two weeks. For the shop? Erm, this week and another two. End of this week and two more. You're gonna buy it You're definitely buying it, yeah. We're getting a What day are you going, Saturday. You can't go another day. Oi er, oh, everybody I know No, because if you buy a twelve hundred, what you gonna carry it everywhere. Where if you go with me, then you can put it in the car. Hang on a minute. both sat there What day would you go? I can't, I'm not going Friday, because I'm playing Yeah, I know. Essex are going I wouldn't Yeah. On Friday I'm going yeah. Well on, on Saturday, I might go, but like, Sunday's a good day and I'll I'll weren't gonna do the market, I weren't do that market, and I could go down on Sunday. That's what I was gonna do. So would, you can get a Sunday. Yeah. Maybe, but wouldn't you be able to find out who, because of Well you gonna be able to come down. Mm. Does she work Saturday? Who cares. Yeah, you're going aren't you. What? Computer Show. When's that? On May the seventh to the ninth. I don't know How fast do they print? What C P S? I mean, do they have a C P S or not. I don't know. I haven't got a print-out Mhm. That computer. Depends how much work I've put in. No, you could to find out, it's in between Yeah, your Got my personal account the week after. But you're not coming. Pardon. I only want twelve hundred do my homework on it. It's better better machine. What programme's this? Sometimes but, keyboard would be I know where you can get a new keyboard. Yeah. any more. Keep it it happens. in there. It's like you could do, that but this quality, and you could do this and that really Neat. Thin as well. I don't any of them. Right. Don't make any . It's good, it's Slightly expensive at innit. two hundred pounds second hand. Yeah, I know that. Laser, it be out already How much was it, did you buy it. Yeah, borrowed it. My friend bought it for two hundred pounds second-hand. Where it's usually about four or five hundred. cost about four or five hundred. It's usually about four or five hundred, he bought it second-hand for two hundred quid. definitely it looks better. printer. Yeah. would. That one's, quite good they are. I know, that one's better, but that one looks better. I suppose can't keep up. Yeah, looks like it. It's good, though. When I first I thought it was a laser printer. I I would buy a bubble-jet. I was going to buy a laser, but I buy a bubble-jet. Yeah. And it, you don't have to keep changing all the paper, you just and it does it. And you're, do you thing com ever run out of Paper like that Yeah Being a businessman. Yeah, but you could turn it round. you know, like, I don't know, you copies, so get out No, right annually No, as long as you've got the paper. Mm. Which we take from school anyway. What? Then you only get Yeah. Mm. Erm, you see the quality. It's good quality, that. The best quality. I've done m is there, are there any gaps in between, if you put it on the good quality like, can you see any spaces? No. Well, can't you see it on that? Li li I mean, something like this. older than you. No, no, you wo , do you mean, like, say on that. gaps, like lines through it, or Yeah, 'cos like,la laser printers like perfect the one I've seen, I don't know. It's perfect, it was perfect. I mean, I've got a Do you agree, then. I'll show you. Did you cop copied it off today. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So why are you doing it on the Because I'm still gonna read through it The colour Laser printer thing Right that can printed in full yet. As long as it's Yeah. Is that what it's gonna look like. Like the four hundred. It's okay then. The one I saw it was the same plain. You know I'm not You like that, you like Print printing it It's gonna be like two. Yeah. I got everything Apart from that Apart from what? That. Ar. They've updated it. It was probably I wonder what Three. Three. If you got engaged, do you want us to do for your friend. What. you know, your best friend's, how how can you do your best friend's like that. Yeah,on those dates. I'm not sure, people Probably the manager. Look on you know what I mean, how can you not do that for your favourite friend. Ain't it your best buddy. Why don't you go home and Alright. ah ah grrr, it's shit, what you bought is shit. You don't like it do you? I haven't had time to good, you know. Disks, no, Yeah, I know, but with them not knowing,friend's because there's so much disk swopping. Don't all got one drive. Yeah, everyone I know. give you one drive and half Some way er, Some people still got half Yeah, I know. How can you half meg, you're in er, when like, when I first got my computer, get half meg extra was about a hundred pound, yeah, for the one. It was about a hundred pound to get, so obviously, you know, there was still people with half meg. Mm. Because they can't Twenty, twenty-five pound. No, listen up, you get about twenty pounds. It went down. Yeah I know. Twenty pounds like,wh I didn't bother getting a drive,be because I sold my computer, but I was gonna get one. And you need the drive as well, drive Yeah, I mean got one and But you know, you see some people with just half, you know, that is stupid, they can't play best game. What, the best games are the ones with one meg. They're like whatever. Yeah. bought his computer after me and he didn't get, he didn't get all the parts because it's, shouldn't got it probably buy it cheaper. Mhm. Normal price. No, he got it cheap. What would you say, he got it for more. Why does it say three disks. It's not three disks, it's four. Must be released it. Which isn't all that good. The background the animation of the people isn't very good, but otherwise it's go I it's good. That Tournament's meant to be good, I haven't heard it yet. Yeah, it's alright. Eight people. It's the best in the definitely it's got, nowhere does it beat Most, you the thing most to me, Mhm. Two games fit on one disk. Yeah, I I couldn't buy, buy the one disk. You couldn't one disk, what he's got If, or, you, I think he buys them off the man in the market. Yeah, but has he got the actual copier. Mhm. So he buys how much does he get it for, do you know? No. He's got erm, I'll get 'em for you, quite cheap. Not Flashback, another wa , he's got another Quite cheap. I often How much. He's got when I said How much does he buy it for, he got, he buys it from the market. What market, do you know. Right, could you ask him. What market does he buy it from. Which one, yeah, and what the prices are, and I'll find out the price for, I probably be able to get it cheaper, because the guy who I buy the Mega stuff off, Mhm. erm, the games for it, and I'll be able to get it off him cheap. Yeah. Because I'm already getting the music stuff off him. Well, it won't be much, it'll be you know What kind Wow, look at that man, look at at that, look at that. That's a normal picture. Ain't no normal picture, man. In the middle of a game. That's middle of a game. I know, I've seen I've seen the game. Are you not do that. Yeah, but look at it, man. Yeah, you put that on any computer. No. Picture like that. No. What do you mean, no. No. You can't do it on that. not coloured. Yo you probably can't tell the difference. You get four thousand and whatever colours on there. Yeah. So you get two hundred and fifty-six thousand. Yeah, but they don't use all the different shades, It. do they? It does. Yeah, it does. It does. Some pictures mi , and that'll be animated like that, games would be like that. You know the games like I can borrow them, if that's all, look at that, brilliant graphics. game like that. game like that. like that. So when you're selling a computer, I thought you were selling into er, when I sell it, yeah. No one 's gonna buy unless you go and put it in a And you have to do Yeah, I know. I was lucky that two people was asking I know people, I know, three people that want to sell their Amega, including Yeah, I know. You're lucky. It's true, you know. Yeah, I know. I sold it for a reasonable price. Only a week after I said I was gonna sell it. What you say, about twenty-three pound from a Mhm. Between twenty and twenty-five. So it's, there's a hundred and eighty. What even new. Yeah, they go for about, I don't know, you see some for about one fifty-nine. Yeah, I know, that's why my friend says in all that, but with games and everything I know. from about hundred and fifty pound you could pay. And they just one double, about that much disks, not many. No, you don't want About ten pound worth of disks, 'cos they're only colour disks, cheap things. Look at that man. That would flicker on the thingy. That, oh would that flicker, this picture? Yeah, that would, yeah. I know, but it's on the twelve hundred. No, it wouldn't, alright on that monitor it would. On that monitor. Mm. A good song. Why don't you get some Amega five hundred computer, with many games, so obviously he's got pirates, with many games, once you box mint condition, with everything in mint condition, hundred and seventy pound. look after my computer, I'll be You don't dust your computer or anything, or else you get all them colours. I leave the dust alone. Did they say it's worth buying it. This one's rubbish, look, amega five hundred with mouse and joy-stick, all leads, modulator, no games, hundred and twenty-five pound. I didn't give them my mouse, er, I gave 'em the mouse but no joy-stick. Amega five hundred, half meg, includes mouse, joy-stick, ten copied games, he's actually writ it. Ten copied games, also uses manual games, includes Arcade Karati, Chase H Q. Brand new, hundred and seventy pound, half meg. But I think they've probably oh, yeah. I've seen that before. That's the one I saw on Games Master. What it say about it. catalogue with Yeah, those three games are making they're making games they're saying about the twelve-hundred Renegade Renegade? Does it say Renegade. Oh, I thought you meant Meridian Two. Target that's gonna be good. I thought they would make that. Oww Think how fast it's gonna be on that. Although game. the Show Man, I wanted to get myself that. Shouldn't have bought those blank disks. Still that's good news. are you gonna get a twelve hundred? I'm alread getting that, How come. Like to get one cheap, it's not worth it. Pity. Not worth it, man. Wh wh what we're gonna do to a twelve hundred that we can't do here. Play wicked amazing super games. Yeah, but I don't I ever do is copy. The Word Processing er, erm games now. two hundred different colours. Yeah, man. It's the best. Who cares about compatibility, if they're just See when the Amega first came out, five hundred, they ain't it. Yeah. They were rubbish. That's what these games are like. In a cou in about two years, the Amega drive is gonna be so good. Sure. Two hundred and fifty that's what you're gonna be sent. All I can say is, I'd better not be wrong. What made you decide to sell your top I haven't sold it yet. What, you mean you might, decide just, that you decide to sell it, anyway. Yeah, I want to sell. What made you. Twelve hundred. Er. I thought you'd gone a bit shitty. I like the graphics. Ah, do you reckon that could be the picture, Yeah, that is the picture. It looks the same, dunnit. Yeah, but that's animated, it's just shh, and all these things background. That's alright, the game's shit. Isn't it, though. Yeah. It's not that brilliant. And a lovely picture, well, it was alright at the beginning. That's the exactly the same as the five hundred version, innit. Yeah. Slows down, you know. Well, look out, read it, read it, read it, the bottom line, read it. Was it a record now. Yeah. What does it say. In places, it doesn't fair as the previous incarnation. When the screen gets busy it lasts at least background strain your eyes after a while. Well,a wanker, though, ain't he. Oh. background, I don't understand that about you're probably dazzled, you're probably dazzled by, it might slow down, because de-programming has probably just took the old one, and just made it Possibly. But look at Lionheart, they said that's, that's that plays perfectly, you know when you running and those pikes come in underneath you. What read it, read it. As with the normal version, it is a very good game that's worthy of your cash if you've got a twelve hundred. Get, but, get this, however, if you haven't got a twelve hundred, and get this,version and control yourself, the fact that you're missing much is worth it Yeah I got that down. Yeah, you're not missing much. Whereas you're missing. You've missed a lot of . Yeah, but, not only Don't know wh what the reviews are like. should get that. What was the name Are you recording? Have to record everything. They want me to write out the stuff. You don't. Yeah, about that. Who's been talking, that's all. Nothing, it's not hard. I'm just gonna make all bull-shit. Haven't played it. And he don't have to work it out himself Oh yeah, it's Mm. Don't let know you are. Who said that. Me. What was up. yeah. Why. let me see these names, who wrote that other review. Which read it, read it, see what his name was. Yeah, go on. Not now. Yeah. Okay. Yes, he's gonna told you. he's probably like like a whatsit or something. He's got the same set-up as Er, come on, let's There you go yeah. See ya. See ya. See ya. Come on, let's take No. Come on, come on and watch her take her test. some, yeah. Come on. coat on. Yeah, Why not. any good thing Come on, man, just I'm going in tomorrow. Actually using Okay. Now You haven't got any more. No Mm, and you can't can you. watch Home and Away watching Home and Away. You got visitors, ain't it. What. You got visitors. No. Two eight six. Two eight six, and you for a two eight six. Why not. grrr like it. Two eight six, three eight six, will be a bit respectable. Four eight six, it would be okay, but Getting I can get lots. Yeah. Mm. Stuff I've already got there. Excel. Got that. Draw. Got that. Dulux paint. What you got in there? Erm, Let's see it, let's see it. Why? 'Cos I said. No. I don't believe you. Sod it, don't believe me then, it's up to you, innit. He ain't got it, nn. Don't, you don't think so. Your lying. What you get up there. College, ain't it. Er. College. they're going out, aren't they. what about It's alright, it's up-gradable, ain't it. Five hundred was up-gradable. I don't care, it's cheap innit. Why don't you get twelve hundred, or something like that. Yeah, I might so much. Mm. That'll be your first twelve hundred, won't it. Well, yeah. hundred. U K twelve hundred. You had a twelve hundred before, you're not Believe it or not, it's up to you. I'm going in, 'cos I'm gonna miss Home and Away, so I'll see two later. You know what No, but come on then. Keep it or something. Keep it. No, I can't take Yeah, I might. So you're never away yet. Do you want to know what I done at school today? Yeah what did you do? Did you go swimming? Yeah. And I done my life saving. Did ya? Yeah. So what did you have to do then? Well, what I had to do, I had to swim under the water Yeah. grab a, erm a brick and Yeah. and swi ,a and swim back up again. And, and also you have to get get this dummy Yeah. and you swim backwards like, know how you sa , life save someone Yeah. and you swim, you do, you do a back stroke Yeah. and you swim backwards to the shore and you climb out and know do that thing without breathing. Like Yeah. put their chin up Yeah. and open the Mouth to mouth resuscitation. Yeah. Mm. And, and that. And I'll, and I passed and I need to get my medals and all that. You did pass? And and also, the lady who teaches you swimming Yeah. erm see sa she said that you can't swim properly. Who, me? Yeah. How do yo , how do you know? Cos she told me. Why? Because she said to me is your brother called Anthony? And I goes and I goes, yeah. And she goes, well your brother needs to be swimming more. Yeah I know. So what? Don't bother me. Yeah, well it should Yeah. bother you innit? Mm. Anyway, well Is Roseanne on? What? Is Roseanne on? Yeah. Anyway, Patrick go Could you put it on Roseanne please? Yeah see you see, hold on Patrick would you, erm go round Carl's house tomorrow about eight o'clock and ask Carl if he wants to swap his for one of my freedom dragon's la land? No, dragon's lair. Oh Anthony, he really take U S Gold. Who's got U S Gold though? Anthony, don't bring it tomorrow. Oh yeah. Oh yeah! No but I wanna play with it first though. Yeah. Right? That's one of the top Sega games. U S Gold? No, and Mickey Mouse and Castle of Indians. Yeah. There's that U S Gold erm Navy Seal. I had the, I ain't taking number two because it might get nicked. Yeah. I'm getting Pick Fighter. When? On erm Monday. Alright then. Alright I then. See I ya. Right, see you later. Patrick. Hey What? Patrick. When you're going out to to play Yeah. tell Damian to come up for me alright? Yeah. Alright. See you later. Yeah. Bye. Anthony, what's on telly? Duckwing Duck. Why? Oh! Can you put it on I, Carlton? What? Can you put it on Carlton T V? Alright then. Hold on. Hurry up! Oh! We missed it. What did we miss? Duckwing Duck? ! Oh. It's what up doc. Se , it's all your fault brother. How's it my fault? Because, because you told me to turn it over and watch something else. Oh. Never mind. How to ma How to make a cup of coffee. The first thing you have to do is take the kettle to the tap and turn the tap on, and then take the kettle back from where you got it and plug it into the plug and, wait for the kettle to boil. While you're waiting for the kettle to boil get a cup from the cupboard and put one so , erm teaspoonful of coffee in it and then put two spoonful of sugar. Then, after the kettle has boiled you pour the hot water into the cup and add the milk and stir it together and that's how you make a cup of coffee. Well if you want you can add cake or anything. Have coffee and cake , Yeah,and coffee and biscuits . Okay. Bye. How to make a cup of tea. Well, really, how to make a cup of tea is like the same thing as making a cup of coffee first you have to take the kettle to the tap, turn the tap on and fill up the kettle, then take the kettle back to the ma , erm, where you got it from and plug it into the wa wall. While you're waiting for the kettle to boil erm, get a cup from the cupboard and a tea bag from the tea jar, put tea bag in the the cup and then wait for the kettle to boil and o , once the kettle has boiled you put your hot water into the cup and le , and let the tea brew for a little while And then, after you let it brew you can either add milk to it or, do not add milk to it. And you can put as many sugars as you like to it. You can have biscuits and cake with it . Oh. Okay. Bye. Mum, I'm going to the shops do you want anything? Alright then. Okay. Wha what paper do you want? The Sunday Times? Okay. Right. See ya Mum. I'll be back in a minute. Alright. Bye. Now to , for some fucking dirty swear! Wo oh oh oh! You fucking bitch! You Irish bastard! Aidan and Mandy have it in bed! Wo oh! Bed squeaking! Ah ha, ah ha, ah ha, ah ah! Fucking slag! Dirty whore! Piss off you Irish slag. Yeah, I'll fucking shag her! For a pint of fucking bitter! Ya pakis! And we hate Holland, the Dutch bastards! Ah ah! Let's go paki bashing. Yeah well bollocks to you too mate! Fucking wanker! Don't tell me about, I see your Mum erm down King's Cross tube station going penny a lick, penny, penny a lick. And your Mum sits out, outside saying it's so easy . Your Mum, your Mum really desperate man, I don't care. Put it this way at least my Mum never beat up my Dad. Ah ah! Or my Dad beat up my Mum! Ah ah. That's a cuss, ah cuss to match that. Oh my God! Boy I had that person finish. I don't care what anyone says, that person is finish. Yeah but, yeah but? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, you wanna fight, I'll fight you any day. Alright then. After school yeah? Alright then. I'll batter you till it makes you fucking Roland Rat! John er John 's Mum's a fucking dirty fat whore! whore! So is Craig , Barbara. Oh Barbara! Oh Barb , whoop. Ding dong the bells are clashing, let's all go Paki bashing . Ah oh. Pakis! Run! Run! The Pakis gonna stab ya. Oh Fuck! Michael's been stabbed, I'm going back for them. I don't care. No one stabs my cousin. What shall I do to them? I'm gonna fucking shoot them with a pellet gun! You if anyone touches him man I'll kill them! No matter who he is. I'll fucking kill them! Hey John , your Mum's a Hell's Angel anyway so sa , that don't really bother me. Hell's Angel on a motorbike. aargh! aargh! aargh! aargh! aargh! Here Dame can you handle a one two five? Yeah man. Really? Innit? I'll handle a one two five every day. Right, well so that's alright tomorrow right me and you go down the dirt track and we'll see if you can handle a one two five, yeah? Alright then. Why? Ca ,yo you're obviously gonna get gutted to the boy. Mm. Did he tell you she going out to Mrs Barbara, she gives, Barbara , oh! She's one dirty whore. She's good in bed you know, you know what I'm saying? Woo! Barbara! Ah ah! Barbara! Ah ah! Barbara! Oh! Give me a bo oh, give me more. Want some, you wanna get pu wanna get in contact with a prostitute phone what was it?that's for a prostitute. And the code word is Maxi Priest. Alright? Yeah, talking of him what about Shama. Joan kill the war you know I'm gonna get tonight. Oh! And Carolina,yeah, if you get up on a roll, Carolina, jump and across, Carolina come on me, oh watch how she groove, Carolina, come on me, oh watch out you get groove. Oh Carolina! Your bump across to Carolina, your . Bump across, oh Carolina you got me love yeah, if get up higher ah, your ah! One, two, three, chi chi, Carolina come on me, oh watch how she groove. Carolina come on me, oh watch out in your groove. Oh Carolina. Carolina! Jump across, oh Carolina. Carolina! Jump across. Watch how she rock,move your body, let man them come, get up and move . Oh Carolina. Carolina! Jump across, da da ring, oh Carolina. Carolina! Rasta ba . .Ee, Carolina you got me girl, yeah, you get up on the rock . Oh I like that song. It's wicked! Informant, you don't say gonna give her one there. Yeah, so on and so on and so on, so on, so on,, I like your boom boom there. Dance in a, in a lady, mm mm, mm mm . Man. Mm mm,. Just be good to me, ah ah, er oh, in the morning, just be good to me, Oh yeah, who comes down to rave down erm Bethnal Green in Benjies? Wicked! There's gonna be D J and all that. With all hard core music. It's safe. Kinda wicked! Well I'm buying ticket today. And, and not only I'm going Arsenal, F A Cup Final. And I reckon that we've got a good chance beating Sheffield Wednesday at football. I don't care what anyone says, we're definitely gonna win. Anyway, and if we win erm all three things, all three matches so far we've won the Coca-Cola Cup, we're gonna play for the fa , erm erm the F A Cup, and then we're gonna play for the Premiere League, and if we win all the other three George 'll be the only manager in history to win all three things. And if we, yeah, and if we, yeah we'll still win we , well we're still going down in history for winning three fo ,, all three matches in a row. And then we're going to Europe ! Where we'll, where we'll most probably get knocked out in the first round right. I don't care. And Ian Wright can't play for erm England any more. Because he broke his knee. Okay. No, his toe should I say? That's what he broke, he broke his toe. Oh! Oh yeah, Dad guess what? Slick come back from his erm whatsername? Holiday from Jamaica. He go , he got me, he got me a t-shirt, hat erm he got me trousers, a wicked pair of ragamuffin trousers. He got me a lot of stuff man! Got me records, tape. He got me Shaggy, Carolina erm Shabba Ranks, and all his songs. . they got, they got wicked raga music over there. I don't care man. Fucking scu , excuse me. Yeah. I'll give you a story to read when I'm fucking fighting okay? Yeah slags! But, and now, and now we're gonna go to the things what parents have wrong, like their, like, they spoil their child and everything at home. Or, here's a letter that was sent to me by Teresa from Birmingham. Dear Anthony, our five year old son, our five year old daughter is a very bad loser. When we play games with her sh , and she doesn't win she either gets upset and cries or gets angry. We've trying showing her that we don't mind when we lose but it doesn't seem to work work. Any ideas ? Well yeah, for,we ,what I will say to you is, try giving her a surprise, when you when you or the father lose again you should react by getting upset or angry. This is serious suggestions, often children can learn from seeing themselves as others see them. When you get angry about losing your husband can,yo ha , losing your husband can ask for his wife, from your daughter about how to deal with it? Do this lightly so you can so she can see you're you are acting and doesn't get frightened. Yet, seriously enough so she hasn't had she hasn't, so she has an opportunity to put herself in your shoe. If you feel this too much to do for you, stick to what you are, are already doing. Don't pay close attention to the detail. What happens, when you do show her you mind losing what do you next, what do you do next? And how can you tell her you don't want to play any more games or, if you analyse her reactions carefully you'll see how some encourage encouraging, that changes your looking, for you, for you're likely to find she begins to, to modify her behaviour . That was from Teresa from Birmingham. Now I wanna go onto a Dear Anne one, which is very interesting. Hold on. Right. Dear Anne, can I give him up? I'm divorced forty ye , I'm a divorced forty year old woman with two grown up children and I am in a terrible situation. The thing is that my infa , infatuated with my bo with my daughter's boyfriend who is also my son's best friend. It started when I, when I came home drunk after his, like,. He was started flirting with me saying how older women turn on. I was flattered. And one thing led to another. Af , I thought that first time would be the last, but since this, Steve's been dropping in during the day while my son and daughter are at work. I know this sorried affair is wrong, that I end up breaking my daughter's heart, or upsetting my son, son's ha , but I don't think I can give up Steve? Am I feeling desperate? Can you help ? Well one thing is fucking kick him out! In our fucking house! Kick him out your house! Or you move and leave your kids at home really, that's what I'd do. And there's another one. Am I prepared too old? Perhaps I'm too hold, old. I am a twenty seven year old woman who can't swim. I've never enjoyed a beach holidays because I'm too scared to go in the water. Now my moth , now my friends at the mother, mother and baby group have joined the water babies class at the local pool, but I feel so nervous I can't go. How can someone my age learn to swim. Summer is coming this year and I really want to learn . Well, what you do is you go to your nearest leisure centre and ask if you could do the training classes for the adults who can't sa , who can't swim yet. And then, by about four months performance you should be able to do about ten metres whatever, you can do. Okay? Okay? Bye. Yeah, and here's a little funny picture out of the newspaper. There's a woman in the be and there's a man underneath the bed and it's got underneath it,Frank, can't you forget you are a mechanic for once? Don't you get it? Man under the bed, and a woman up the bed. Ah ah! God! That is disgusting! And there's erm mm oh erm there's there's erm a boy with a big umbrella who's got, and it's raining and he's got,I didn't know April showers were like this . And then there's this girl called Susie, saying to her, she's getting all her clothes off and all that. Undress yourself from my clothes . They're so fucking stupid! And they got all modern clothes and hair and everything. Nice sexy girls. Not prostitutes. And there's a good one with a dog up on a horse, just keep, just keeping the seat warm it's got. And there's a little baby boy and girl,we're only kissing cousins it's got. Funny! And then there's, there's my favourite bit in here where's it overheard,I've just thrown away some old chicken, some cold chicken said the elderly lady to her friend. I was, I was frightened I'd get salmo ,sa se semolina poisoning. Well, if a brick layer lays bricks why doesn't a plumbers lay plums and it said the little boy to his mother . That comes from Mrs ji J Port Rush, Port Rush. Erm let's what else. We got trips we got make-up, how to look after your face, got a healthy diet, you got this i , there's a help line and it's if you want that. You got love to take away from the fear . You got your help line. You can use the help line and phone it over from where you are into England. It will cost you a packet though so I doubt if you fo , can afford it. You got shampoos you got man and a woman who haven't been together long cos er cos they just got married. Ah you got Finlay out of erm Home and Away and er bo , and her boyfriend who used to play Hayden in there. They, them two go out with each oth , each other. Elmo Estevez er er Elmo Estevez and his wife Paula Abdul. Paula Abdul, in here it's got Paula Abdul's pregnant, but in real life Paula Abdul isn't pregnant. And you got you got the man from the Terminator, Arnold Schwarzenegger a big heavy monster build who was in Total Recall, Raw Deal, what else? Erm Cyborg Conan and the Barbarian, erm Hercules. Phworgh! He's in a lot of films! Kindergarten Cop. And he's in a lot of films. Got people from the Bill. Funny man. Got cooking my own story about the Hillsborough Disaster . What happened in Liverpool when Liverpool were playing ho oh, Nottingham Forest, and what happened was is that there was extra fans coming in to the ground and the police let them in and then everyone just started to get squashed and all that. So, it goes, the man, there's a man who went there he goes,I survived the Hillsborough. On the forth anniversary of the British football worst disast , disaster survivor,Sa Steve tells what Hillsborough meant to him and his family . That is good. Go women's bra, cutlery, shampoo. Woman that look like tramps and they look like wicked nice girls! Got you got erm a pair of two lovers er, a woman's house got burnt down and the man next door went down there and helped them build it up. And then they're lover forever. You got, you got how ha how to do up your own house. And you got this boy who's shot in the eye by pellets twice who's got,Mum! I can't see ! Ow! And there's er and there's a personality quiz. Right. Here it goes. How would you react when your best friend tells you tells you you're really wicked? A, tell her she's as, as a pa , pal too? B, try to make amends for upsetting her? Or C, take it as a real compliment and you are on the same wavelength ? Question two. Your partner suggests you should go to a Phil Collins concert. Do you, suggest you go for a meal as well? B, save your money for Iron Maiden tour? Or C, tell him you're too old for that sort of mus , music ? Question three. Erm which of these outfits are you most likely to wear on a trip to the, the local shops? A skimpy top and leggings, and Doctor Martens? A baggy top, jeans, and a pair of trainers? A neat ju , a neat jumper and matching skirt and shorts ? Number four , and the last question. You are an eighteen year old single girl which most, which most of these days, of these sort of days are these most appeal to?would yo religions with your partner? A group, either a packages, package with three other friends? Or a back sweeping around the states of Holland with your boyfriend or girlfriend ? That's it. And if you got, if you got if you got, hold on. If you got eight to twelve questions, you've this is what the answer is. Your grudging the street cred quite to start an advice centre. That hip hop ho hooray! Hip hip hooray! If it's really you and you feel so trendy with genuinely,genuilley ,genu elly,jo , enjoy life it's ! Though if you're being easily led try hard, or following trends for the sake of it. That's that. Now I'm gonna go and get my computer mag! Hello. I'm back with a computer magazine now. I'll tell you what the new games are in with in er over here in England. Well there's,Another World, Bart's , Blazing Skies, Kick off, Roadrunner, Robocop Three, Super Spiderman and X Man Sa Spi , Spinny Dizzy World, Super Gold you got A Al , Axe Razor Face Ball Two Thousand, N C A, N C A A Basketball, Race Driving, Town Park, Sonic Blast Man, Sword Blazer, Super Double Dragon Star Wars, Super , Champ, erm, the Magical Quest, The World League Soccer and th , there's the A to Z of reviews. Addams Family, Dragon's Lair, F one R O C, Final Fight, F Zero, Joe and Mack, Crusty's Fun House, Lemmings, Paper Boy Two, Pilot Wings, Rival Turf, Silver City, Streetfighter Two, Super Adventure Land, Castlevania Five, Super Ghosts and Ghouls, Super Mario World, Super Off Race, Funboy Tech , Super , Super Smashing T V, Super Shot Goal, Super Tennis, and T M N T I V, Top Gear, Ultra Rain, U S Gobtron, er W W F, and Zelda Three, the Link to the Past. . That is a blinding game! I'll take you to one of our previews that we got. Erm Road Runner it's Star Wars, Super Star Wars. Brilliant Game! If you was gonna get that I will tell you should buy it! It's worth it. Yeah, N C C A, Basketball. That is brilliant! You can be the A team. Especially if you're Michael . Ow! He's the best! The pro score for that is seventy five per cent. Not bad. Yeah, that, I'll show you, I'll tell you, you got Face Ball, that's a very, very good game! In th , over here, it only cost forty fa , forty five pound and you can play one or two players on it and the pro score is eighty eight per cent . Not bad for that one. Yeah, you got, Sonic Brassman. Right yo , you can have one player and it costs forty four pound ninety nine. And it's eight seven per cent. And then you got Race Driving. One player, forty five pound erm pro score, fifty one per cent. You've got Rampart. Erm, forty four pound ninety nine. One or two players and pro score eighty five per cent. Not bad for that one. You got Zule Blazer. Forty nine pound ninety nine, one player pro score eighty five per cent. And then you got Ex Layer erm forty four pound ninety nine. Erm, one player per cent, pro score was ninety one per cent . Then you got, Super Double Dragon. Brilliant game! You sho , you should get if I was you. Erm, say around, erm forty five pounds exactly. Players one or two. Percent, sixty one per cent. Erm and then you got Magical Quest, Mickey Mouse. That's erm one or two players er erm, don't know the price. Erm pro score ninety four per cent. And here you got Super Soccer, erm one or two players price, thirty nine pound ninety nine. Pro score eighty per cent. And then you got Super Goal, that's another football game, like so soccer. Erm that is erm that is no price, but er erm, pro score eighty four per cent. Then you got Euro Football Champ, no price. Overall per cent, erm forty eight per cent for that one. And Super Kick off , the best game going out er, the best football game going out on the all computers! Erm, forty five pound ninety five. Erm erm overall, two players you can play pro score eighty one per cent. Not bad for that game. Then you got, you can win a Street Fighter Two. Erm, all you have to do is dial a phone number that's . That's Street Fighter. Then you can win a Super Nintendo, and that's . Super Nintendo. Brilliant! And down here on the side in front of me now you got Super , Super Nesh yo , and that's a,the , that's the one what comes from America. And Super Nesh U K . Tt. Brilliant! Then you got,Another World, one player forty five pound and o , pro score eighty six per cent. And then you Robocop Three . And that's a brilliant film of that! I'm telling you! One player, forty four pound ninety nine. Erm overall per cent forty six. Er er, now erm you got Sparks Nightmare. That's one player and that's forty five pound. And overall per cent, a hundred . And if it's a hundred per cent, that is brilliant! It's a good game. So far, that is the best one we've had. And you got Super Savers, where you can save all your money. There's games and all the others. You got Castlevania Five, forty two pound ninety nine. You got Axe Razor, forty eight. Erm, Another World forty two. Addams Family, forty four, ninety nine. F Zero a brilliant game to get! Thirty nine pound ninety nine. Final Fight , okay, but it's a bit boring. Forty four. Paper Boy, forty pounds. Pilot Wings, thirty nine pound. Legend of Zelda, Link to the Past, thirty eight pound . Brilliant game! That is a hundred per cent and all. Then you got Lemmings, forty four pound ninety nine. Rival Turf forty two pound ninety nine. Oh Street Fighter fo , Street Fighter, fifty nine pound ninety nine , but that's getting out of fashion now. That's getting boring. Super Adventure Island , that is getting brilliant! That's forty, forty three. Super Ghosts and Ghouls, forty two. Erm, Super , Alien Rebel, forty two. Super Sucker thirty nine, with action replay which makes you go into harder, or easier if you want. And they can show you extra levels where you can cheat and all that. That's forty three. Got Trial Blazer, joystick, twenty nine pound . Brilliant! I don't care what anyone says, they're wicked! You got a Quest joy pad, fourteen nineteen ninety nine . That is brilliant and all. Erm that's it really. You got then you got Dragon's Lair, forty two pound ninety nine. You got one or two players. Pro score, eighty three. And you get Exhaust Heat, this is the last one, one player, thirty nine pound ninety nine . Right. Can you turn this way. Do you all understand the diagram ? Sir I got a . Let's see if we can go through it first. I didn't. Do this the next day. You got your diagram of a square there. Yeah I know this. Oh . Let's just go through it. Okay? Carl have a look at this. First of all there are two types of environment. Cos in a moment you're gonna be writing this up. You're gonna be writing an explanation of this. Will we sir? Okay? Yes sir. ! Oh! Enterprise there. Can you follow the diagram as I go through it. There are two types of environment. Shh shh! Your environment Human and physical. So in your opening paragraph, that's what you say. What is the human made up of please Anthony? Of Shh! Anthony! Sorry? What are the three parts of it please? Nations, population level of development. Nations, population, and level of development. Now then I don't know if she talked to you about this. Do you know about the levels of development? No. Didn't think you did. There are three levels of development and you're gonna have to explain this this morning, so just watch. This is an aid memoir, what's an aid memoir? Aid memoir? A memory. Memory. Are they memories or An aid to your memories. This is not, this is not one hundred percent accurate. It is a generality. What I say on here you will Might not always find will be different wouldn't it? slight differences in the real world. Okay? This is you remember I've told you about geography bottles, yeah? It's a rough guide. . So there are three types of industries. What are they please? Joy? Sorry? Three kinds of industry, Joy. Listen! , La ,Joy ! You've got yourself a page full of lines. I'm sick and tired of these people shouting out! Choose a proper one and hand it in by one fifty, today. So you can do it in your lunch hour. Three types of industry Joy? Secondary Good! Primary secondary what's another word for ins for primary industry please er Craig? Er er Another word for it. Dunno. Go on. Something that was there at the time? No,na , no, look! At least he's trying fellas! Mark? Er, number one, the first. No. Premium. No. Go on. Renewable. No. It's using natural resources. Gimme an example please. Pardon? Gimme an example of a primary industry! Put your hands down!? What's a, what's a ma , give me an example of a natural resource for this group? Danny? Coal. Coal. So give me an example, Daniel, of an industry using a natural resource. Er er lumberjack. Er lumberjacking. Give me another one, Anthony? Oil. Carl? Coal mining. Coal mining. Anything that's come from the ground is a primary industry, or farming. Coal mining or farming is using natural resources. Okay. Secondary. What's another word for a secondary industry please? Manufacturing. Good. Manufacturing. Want to give me an example of a manufacturing industry Carl? Manufacturing. I don't know sir. Kazie? Think then! Manufacturing. What is manufacturing? What's another work for manufa Making. Making. Making. You give me something that's made Kazie? Your clothes! Chairs. The chair industry in manufacturing. Cars, paints Industrial. and factories. Yeah, training shoes, carpet, stereo, look around, they're all around, do you understand that? Mm. Pardon? Yes sir. So manufacturing, such as the car industry. tertiary, please? In other words Adam? Service industry. Service sector. Gimme an example of a service industry please? Richard? I said put your hands Selling. please. Selling. Selling. Shopkeeping. Another one? Car sales. Car se , yeah, shops, any sort of shop or Emergency What about service. Doctors, accountant, civil service, public employees, dustman. Okay? So there's your three types of industry. Any job which sector for example would running a hotel come in? Running a hotel, which sector would it come under? Right, these are sector. What's a sector in mathematics please? The area. Well, well, a area. a, a part, yeah. These are three types of primary, secondary, and tertiary sectors, so give me which sector is the hotel industry in? Secondary? No. Do you make hotels? So, what do you do when you go to a hotel? You stop there don't you? So, what sector is it? Tertiary. Tertiary. Cos it's providing a service. Service. If you go on holiday and there aren't any hotels, you're gonna be sleeping outside with the stars. You'll be back again. Can you give me an example of the electrician. Service. Which sector is the electrician in? Service. Service. Which i , which sector is the house builder in? Secondary. Secondary. Cos he's ma making houses. Which sector is the lawyer in? Tertiary. Tertiary. Which sector is the research assistant in a laboratory. Primary. No. Sectors? Secondary. Tertiary. No. Well, secondary. No. They're in the quaternary sector. Yeah, sir, you know you said the house builders are secondary if they're making something, they're also providing a service though aren't they? But tha , well so is the person who makes shoes. Cos if we didn't have somebody making shoes we'd all be walking round bare foot. See what I mean? Yep. Yeah? A person who's make tables, yeah? He's providing a service but in th the prime role, yeah? Mm. Okay? The person is who, for example, who makes medicine yeah? He's in the manufacturing industry but they're providing a service. Yeah? Yeah. The person who sells the house yeah? So if he sells he's tertiary. Is the tertiary. quaternary sector you do not need to know about. Okay? But quaternary sector is anybody who's into research or er high international finance and banking. Yeah? It's a new one that's only just been around for the last fifty years. Okay? But just for your information. You do not need to know that. But most jobs all jobs in fact could be divided into these sectors. Because you could say international banking could go into the ser , tertiary sector. Sir? Is this for the key stage three what we're doing? . No. Oh that's alright then. We're not doing that. You don't come under key stage until you go into wa er er year eight I think it is. Okay? Right, so these are the three sectors. Now, there are three types of country and these are types of country. Right. Boy! Now then the way that you categorize countries what do I mean categorize? Well catori Put them in order. Put them them into, not order that's rank, a different Like primary, secondary and Put into Sir. different categories. Yeah. Yeah. Like , for what they're good at Well developing Okay. or whatever. Now then a country that has less developed countries have this is a graph now, yeah? Less developed countries sit down quickly boy. Less developed countries have some primary industry. They have very little secondary industry but they have even less tertiary. Now this is based on area, for example, d'ya remember we looked at what's this country? Brazil. Brazil. Which part is the rich North Brazil. which part is rich? South part. South South. So here there is service and there is some Manufacturing. manufacturing. It's changing because of the, what project? Environment. In the north there isn't. Okay? There is a lot more primary. What primary activities are happening in the northern part of Brazil. Mining. The cutting down of trees. The cutting down of trees. What else? Farming. Farming. What else? Coal mining. Mining. Right. They do some man , this is increasing. But it's only happening in some less developed countries. Can anybody say why it's happening in so , some countries? You know I said jobs are divided into primary, secondary, tertiary, some, all countries can divide, can divide it up into less developed, developing, and developed. So tell me then, why do only some less developed countries have primary industries. Cos they ain't got the companies to build up the No. things. Not the companies. They ain't got the People. No. I was gonna say they ain't got the things to do it. No. They haven't got any coal. They haven't got any trees. For example, a country that's in the da , in the desert with no India. trees. India. No fish. No land to farm. Yeah? And, and no mines or minerals underneath the ground, can that have a lot of primary industry? No. No. So there's some countries in the desert around the Gobi desert that don't have any primary industry. Do you understand that? Yes? Now they have some secondary industry. Cos every country has to make some sort of farming tools, has to make some plates, you know you've seen photographs and you've seen pictures, some countries all have some sort of factory. They don't have big factories like they have at Dagenham, but small, what I call almost they are called these. Cottage industries. What do you think I mean by cottage industries? A small . Small. You know what a cottage is, it's a small house. These are small industries. Remembering, of course, that there will be some big industries, this is just general, okay? If you think of a less developed country, you might find some big industry, this is just a way to divide the . Now then, developing countries have much more raw materials industry, and that is still increasing. They have more secondary, and they have more area but it's still spatial. Because Brazil is an example of a developing country. would use that much mining now, it's small . Well because what they do is what do you think they do with the goods they dig out the ground? They don't use it? It's mostly for Export. export. Same as here, this is for export. And this, is just beginning. And it's mostly multi-national companies that run it. Okay? Finally, a developed country has much less primary. Carl. Has a lot more secondary, but it is changing. Do we now, for example, make er big ships like we used to? Yeah. No. No. We make a lot of computers and things like that don't we? Changing the what we make or manufacture. What do, gimme an example of a multi-national country, multi-national company in a developing country that makes things? Sanyo. What? Sanyo. Yes. Where are they made? Where are, where are Nike trainers made? Nike. Area, er America. Korea. Yeah. They're made in Korea. Yeah? That is a developing country, but it's a multi-national company. What's a multi- national company Craig? Er Look at the word. It's company that's got bases in Yeah. All over the Yeah, many different countries. Have you seen the er what's the advert with the globe? Is it I C I or B P? Reebok. No. The globe. I C I. Yeah, the one with erm cream on it's face. That one. Erm, where That's a toothpaste ad though. British Airways sir, is it? No. Mu , British Airways is a multi-national company. I C I is. I C I is. It's I C I. Yeah? You got o , I C I. Er ,. Okay. No it's not. But we have a lot American Express sir? Yeah. American Express! Yeah. Shows you on there. Is a multi- national company. It is a multi-company. Yeah. You're right. We have a lot of tertiary. Now these what do you think the E stands for? Everything. Export. Sorry. Engage. No , think! Yeah. We don't export some tertiary services do we? Exchange. Exchange things. Yeah. E equals I don't know. Enterprise. No. I don't know. Employ in that sector. Employee. Okay? So the number of people in the country employed in that sector. About a hundred, two hundred years ago we had ninety five percent of people i in this country were employed in farming. Now, these countries have ninety five percent, and they will gro , gradually grow into a developed country. Do you remember last year when we had the population graph that went like that? Well yeah, the birth rate. And in nineteen fifty in U K It started to rise. Yeah? Nineteen fifty in Brazil was exactly where it was eighteen fifty for the U K. Do you remember? Compared the two graphs. Okay? So now you understand levels of development. There are three levels of development, what are they Richard? Less developed, developing, and Okay. developed. And e , do you understand this? Yeah? Yeah. Right. Going back to this. Because when you come to write this up you need to include this. Yeah. Okay. Physical environment. And there you have your third type coming up. You have, sorry, would you Yeah. okay you have, what's geology please? Geography. No! Otherwise it would have written geography on there! It's like saying what's a Ford? It's actually Ford Fiesta. Sir. Is it like looking up something? Geology is rocks. You got rocks in there . Sir, some rocks have got hole in it, you know that? You know? Right. Okay? So the first thing in geology, why is geology important? Cos you got What the rock is like? cos you got materials in it that we need. Yeah. Like tin, or iron, or gold or even Minerals. Erm Zinc. oil. Gold. Or zinc, any of those. Right. Climate? Weather. Why is that important please? Which sector really might the climate and weather help? Er Primary. Primary. Why? Cos it's farming. To grow it. Farming. Another sector? Secondary. Why secondary? Tertiary. Secondary could help because what happens if there's a lot of water? You could put a hydro-electric dam up there which could help electricity, which could help your industry. Yeah? And finally, tertiary sector, why is climate and weather useful for tertiary sector? Why is climate, what happens when it's really, really hot? You got fans. People go away . What do you mean you gotta buy fans? No. People go on holiday. People go on holiday there. Okay? Get the fans out. The next section. Animals and plants. Animals and plants, is obviously to do with Tertiary. Farming. farming, because, for example, you can't keep er er strawberries in the cold. Because they'd die. You ought to be a farmer when you grow up. You'd make a fortune. Okay. And the fourth sector. Shops. No. Scenery, landscape. Why is that important please? So like you're not Sir. damaging the environment. Pardon? Not,yo , you're not damaging the environment. What? People come No. This is a picture of a map of Japan. Is it? Yeah. Looks like a gu water pistol. All of Japan inside There's no environment The brown there. is mountain. Can you build cities on top of the mountains? No. Can you build factories on top of the mountains? No. Most of the mountains are all volcanoes anyway. There's a lot of earthquakes there. So most of your cities Yeah. There aren't any. Are round the edge of it. Around the edge of it. Sir, where's the wall then? Where's the The wall. The wool? Yeah the wall. What wall? The great wall? They gotta wall. Great wall of China? China's not in Japan. . They got a wall ! Okay. Let's move on. Okay. Yeah, there are flat The building's . Yeah. And soil. Why is soil important? So you can grow more resources. Cos farming involves the crops. What? So you grow more resources. No you can't. the what? Crops. Farming. Farming. Crops, yeah. Okay. Now then the physical environment leads onto those three types of resources and they are renewable Aha. , what, what's mean? What have we been calling it? Not renewable. sounds like finish which means that eventually they will Die. run out. Give me an example of a renewable resource please? Trees. Renewable! Paper. No. Sir! Actual resource, come on. Coal. Renewable! Once you burn coal die, it's dead. Oil. Water. Plastic. Water. Water. Yes,whe when you go to farmers grow plastic trees. In the future, yeah. Coal. Seen it Water, coal. Mm. New word for you aesthetic. Have you ever come across that in Yeah. art? Mm. Nah. Aesthetic means, it means, it is very much like the, everybody wants to look at it. Alright sir. Thought it was you three. Okay. Factors needed for life? Residence. Residence. What's that mean? Anthony? for a house where you can live in or A house or a box. Yes. A house or box. Okay? Food, why do we need food? To keep ourselves alive. To keep us alive. Energy. No. Energy. You don't need it though. Why do we need work? Exercise. No. So we , so we can our bills. Money, to get money. Money, leisure. To have fun and exercise. Yeah. Other goods and services. Plumber. No, factors needed for life. Other goods and services. Subjects. Shops. Extras. Shops. Shops. Shops. Electricity, T V Bank. station, banks, lawyers, accountants, that sort of thing. Health. Why do we need health? So we don't die. To look after li our bodies. To stay alive . Otherwise you're dead. Yeah. Movement. What does it mean here in terms of movement? They don't mean going dancing. Erm, you Keep kicking ya. No. Transport. And keeping And Transport of people. Good. Cathy. And Movements. movements of residence. What? What? The same as you do for planting trees. I can see it now . Information technology and ideas T V. Oh Computers Computers Telephone and and video telephone and improvement in Compact disc. technology. What happened if there are improvements in technology in the industry? No more workers. Right. Okay. All these things provide economic systems. Agricultural, industrial, and service. Are they the same as pra , are, are they the same as primary, secondary, and tertiary. Yeah. No! No. No. Daniel! Er er er er er! Agricultural is not coal mining unless you eat coal! Ah? Industrial. Okay? These are systems. One provides us with food, one provi , puts bits together and the other provides us with a service. Okay? Then there is the cycle as you can see. Those three factors there, human, physical, and systems go together into that circle there. Carl, you'll be writing this up and you won't be able to do it! Those are individual, locational decisions. What do we mean by that? Individual locational decisions. Well look back to the factors needed for life first of all. People decide where they're gonna live and what they're gonna live in. People decide what food they want, what to buy. People decide where they're gonna work, or have no, that sorted out. People decide what leisure facilities they're gonna use. People decide what other systems they're gonna have, for example, people I know still won't buy a television, or a video, or a satellite dish, or a microwave. Right? They won't do it. They don't want to have that. Yes? People decide whether to opt into the health service or Doctors. BUPA. or BUPA. Spit it out. Movement. People decide whether to use public transport, buy a car Go on the bus. Bus. move house, move country, move region. How d'ya move a country ? What? How d'ya move a country? No move from a country from one country to another. Okay? These companies decide whether where and when to work, where and when to build. Why do you think Fords decided to build at Dagenham? Cos there's lots of space. It's a city. A lot of space. A city. Spaces. Lots of reasons. They didn't just say you know, er er er Dagenham Motors. there we'll build there. Mm. Do you ever Cos there's does anybody ever watch the news where they say Japanese company decide to locate in Manchester, or whatever. Yeah? Mm. No? It should do, Carl Cos they get a nice profit. You should do Carl! divvy! You know, not just watch bloody Bart Simpson! Do I, do I ever. Right? People, why do people, why do people move to work on the Docklands? Cos they, cos they Money. live near it. Or they're quicker. It's in the city now. No. when you moved here not to pay rent. Wo oh. There are lots of reasons why people choose. And then when people choose it creates what's there, a spatial pattern. And what are spatial patterns? Areas. Space patterns. A space pattern. A pa , a pattern of industry and ri , locations Patterns , sort of a pattern, right. provides making goods and service available in all areas. Okay. Turn the page please. Nig gi gi geria,Nig gi gi eria,Nige ,gi gi ria,Niger gi gi ria,Niger gi gi ria . Your work so far has looked at the case studies of three kinds of activities primary, secondary, and tertiary. They all provide jobs for people. They're all interlinked. How is a farm interlinked please? Let's if we can do Because you're getting wheat. In fact what we'll do is, we'll stop after we've done this and then your books, I want you to get that diagram down and spirograph down. Now then here we have a farm, and it is a farm a mixed farm. What do we mean by a mixed farm please? You've got er animals and you grow wheat. Animals and crops. It's alright, I'm watching. Well, as I said before Okay. I'm watching . A mixed farm how is that linked to a to the primary industry? To coal mining? Cos they're digging. No. But are they? Anthony unless you can say something intelligent shut your bloody mouth! Right? Aha. You have to think before you speak. Engage your brain before your mouth. They should work in harmo at the introduction stage. Anyway can I welcome you on behalf of the Notts County Council to the the Nottinghamshire pre-retirement . You'll see my name's on here Bernard . And there's always the informality about these course, we're all addressed on christian name terms, all speakers prefer it that way and of course we like to address you christian name terms when we know you. And when I saw Bob 's name on there I thought well I know one face at least. almost on the point of saying, Well I there was one friendly face. but that is asking the impression that all the others are unfriendly which isn't . nevertheless it was nice nice to know that there's someone . Er right so as I say it's a lighthearted approach and on christian name terms and with that in mind would you detach one of these and just stick your name on so that at least if you don't know then at some stage during the course you stand a good chance of getting to know each other because again the essence of this course is informality and talking. As you know as as teachers this is the way that information. Right I shan't er be able to remember all your names but er nevertheless if you know each other then er Er you may have wondered what the Nottinghamshire Pre-retirement Council is well we are a charity. Started off giving er sort of talks at er no charge at all to who couldn't afford it and have now expanded into giving talks on a commercial basis to various companies. Er usually spend a lot a lot of time in the north of the county talking to power stations and people like that industrial rather than commercial or educational but er there we are. Er we're financed by grants from various authorities and by payments of course from the bodies who ask us to put on these talks. And er over the years we've built up a reputation I know is is a genuine one say that because I know that you're going to appreciate this course and I use the term very very particularly you will enjoy it. Again one of the essential elements picking up information is that if you enjoy you will then learn more. I find it so. Right some of our speakers are retires I I've been retired quite a number of years, as you'll have noticed I give the talk on income tax and I'm a retired tax inspector. And so we bring er a special sort of er expertise I suppose to the talks but also the experience of retirement which we think is is really good by someone who has already retired enjoying retirement to be able come to talk to people . We often meet people who are in in their forties and fifties on er early retirement and little bit difficult to get over the message they don't they don't see it as retirement and yet surprisingly very few of the people who got redundancy at forty and forty five and fifty seem to be bothered about taking up other work at all that. obviously you'll say the size of their pensions and lump sums. That doesn't seem to be so at some stages it is a little difficult getting it over as a as a a retired person talking to someone who is facing redundancy about retirement. Particularly when some of our speakers talk about er getting the state retirement pension at sixty five talking to I'm only forty five. so there is this mixture of er of the older element and the younger element which we've got to sort of marry during this course. So if you feel at some stage that er this isn't for me then one of the things that we regularly hear is I wish I'd done this course ten years ago. So in see things that you can do in future let me know. Particularly with the with the finance er s speaker. Right where are we up to? But all our speakers are chosen by the Pre-retirement Council and by your employers by the way who over a period of time have selected the Oh well we don't want him again or that firm again. so they've all we've all been vetted over over a number of years. So we've all speakers chosen for their integrity and confidence. The aim of the course is to provide advice and information but as I said at the beginning to get you talking about it. Because only then can you learn things. I often say jokingly that you make a comment to somebody and you find you're talking to the world export on expert on whatever it is. It is surprising how often your questions are answered by a casual comment from somebody . You've been bothered by something for ages and just happen to mention it somebody as you're walking by, Oh yes . And this I I find is one of the helpful things and when you get together not during the actual talking the actual session but er . I mentioned the age related thing about the difficulty of talking about . Excuse me could you speak up just a little bit? Yes yes er Thank you. Any problems like that don't hesitate just join in and jumping ahead on the question of questions all our speakers like you to ask them as they occur to you. So don't feel that that you should wait until the end although we do leave a a little bit at the end just for questions and you may have noticed that there's either a tea break or a meal break after each talk. Which if you've got anything personal particularly on income tax for example the you buttonhole the speaker during the tea or coffee break. And they don't mind at all. So don't hesitate . Right One of the things that er we try to pass on is that you'll pick up a lot of information which may not be relevant to you but may be relevant to members of your family or friends. But pass it on. Now I I mentioned some of the things on income tax where i know it doesn't er apply to the people in the group but may well do to relatives of them. But don't hesitate tell people about it. Pass on your information. Well the as you'll have noticed the course is designed around a series of talks but they are by no means lectures. There is very much a joining in element participation is welcome by all the speakers. feel free to question intelligent participation that er brings out as you well know the best in in all . And we try to show that retirement can be a rewarding and fulfilling I find it so anyway so I can sell things in that er sense having an experience rather a young person talking to older people how er fulfilling it wis is in retirement. Well I know it is and er I hope it comes over in a genuine way. But er in effect we're trying to show you how fulfilling and rewarding er you can make retirement. Rewarding in a financial sense I think you'll find once you've heard . Some of the subjects are a bit heavier than others. This is the fault of of er behind the fact er we have to ask speakers when they can come to give their talk. And they have to fit it into their diary. Sometimes we get a particularly heavy day though er I apologize for that that in advance but er don't lose your concentration you'll certainly miss something. We've got a folder for each of you. Please help yourself it contains quite a lot of er information leaflets and whatnot. And some of our speakers will bring their own leaflets er make noes by all means but you may find that er you'll get er good handouts from some of the speakers not every not all of them. I don't know whether the er our er legal speaker will will will bring any er information but er this is the sort of thing that some of the er solicitors bring retir Pre-retirement Course Legal Aspects of Retirement and if er if we you don't get a handout like this from er mister I've not met met mister before. This is available if anyone wants to look at it during the course. I'll keep it out of his way whilst he's talking or he'll think, Hello there's a competitor in the wings . I think you've got a green folder with a questionnaire in it haven't you? If you'll complete that during the course, towards the ends of the course when you've Ah well I've got a little note that questionnaires should be in green folder. Well I've got a supply of of questionnaires so er I'm sorry if you so I'll Come in. This is the pre-retirement course? Pre-retirement yes Thank you. yes. Hello Are you the gentleman with car trouble? I am thank you. No longer I hope. Anyway welcome . I was just saying that during the course of today I hope you'll complete a questionnaire. Feel free to be er complementary or critical as you wish. Bear in mind of course that er most of speakers are volunteers so . You mean you want us to be kind to them. Not really I just say that because one er person who completed a questionnaire was quite er was quite nasty in their comments and er it isn't really appropriate when people are volunteers. It's different if you're paid to come here to give a talk and you put up a poor show but if you've volunteered then er I think er you know you you really ought to have a different approach to . But criticize by all means. I thought I ought to tell you that. Right and also comments and suggestions although we've been in the business for a number of years, er comments and suggestions are always er welcomed and and and considered very carefully. Right I've mentioned questions you'll notice that we've got money and retirement mister John from now most of you may have seen the name in various erm very good speaker John you'll a you'll appreciate can't really say enjoy his talk because he really goes on and gives you a lot of information you'll appreciate it rather than enjoy it. But I need to say something about the investment advisors because they're in a slightly different er they come here in a slightly different capacity to other speakers. And the spea all these firms' speakers will be talking in a very way about finance. They're not giving the talk aimed at telling you how best to invest your money. It's merely the the perils and pitfalls of investment. How best to but during that talk and this is where we need to concentrate he'll be dropping snippets of information . And why I mention that is that the purpose of these people coming they are commercial they are coming here on a commercial basis. Er there won't be any hard sell quite quite clear about this. You will not know that he is really er here in a commercial way. This is deliberate because he's come here on that basis. He will talk to you generally about investment advice and during the break you'll be able to talk to him you'll be able to ask questions. him out by all means on any investment but this is the difference at the end of his talk he will be hoping that you will complete an application form for them to advise you individually. Which will be a form of contract between you and them. You don't have to do. But I would advise you to do so. Because at one of our talks er before the financial advisor spoken to a chap that happened to be sitting near him when I moved out of this desk and he got rather a ler lu large investment and yet m and and he was quite happy with his investment yet much to my astonishment he completed this application form for the investment advisor to advise him on his investment. I said, I wouldn't have you would have bothered. well he says he'll tell me what he suggests and if it agrees with what I've got I'm a happy man aren't I. If it doesn't I can consider changing. But he said I probably won't taking any notice of it at all. So there are two things er you will John will hope you will a apply to the the his firm to advise you individually. You needn't do so you needn't complete it at all there's no hard sell. You can then complete it and then he will make an appointment with you to come to your house and he'll spend quite a lot of time they really do ascertaining your personal circumstances. Any dependants, what your investment policies are, what your need for money will be over the short term and the long term. Because they are required by law to give you the best investment advice, and unless they find out your personal details they can't do that. And if they fail to find all your information and recommend something and then you say, Well er invalid son or parents and I need that money then he's at fault and you can then er take them to court for failing to give you best advice. So they really do go to town in finding out your personal existing investments. And then they will he will send you a written report on how best you should invest your money. Lump sums or existing investments. And at that stage you can say no thank you and our advice is take the report and then go to another investment advisor and they will do precisely the same. And you can compare the two and still say no thank you. And at that point it is absolutely free the service is completely Hello. Come in. retirement course? Pre-retirement yes. We've been in the building for hours actually. Ah. We're talking about the financial speaker and the way they and I I'm afraid I sh we shan't have time to go back and er tell you what I'm saying but er I hope you can pick it up. So you've got the you've got the three things the the the financial speaker is really coming here in a commercial way but with no hard sell in the hope that you will become er one of their clients for individual investment advice but you needn't do so. If you do and they complete a report and give you their best advice you can still say no thank you I'm going to put it in the building society. If you then say, yes I think that's very good I'll do as you say you do not repeat no give them your money, or let them handle your money. They will say invest in whatever it is say Global Investment no it won't be because that's tied to the Halifax Building Society but just say Global Investments as a name. If they say er, We think you should put all your money into Global Investments then you send your cheque to Global Investments. You never send your money through any of these investment advisors. If you do go to a second investment advisor and John may well advise to do so. They sometimes do say, Go somewhere else before you take our advice. Erm and they say, Will you please let me have your cheque for investment. walk out. Because you should never deal with these people in a cash basis. It's only an advisory basis. And John will make this crystal clear. So really you're you can't lose they come they give you the best advice, they give it in a written form. Hello. Hello I'm sorry I'm late. That's alright. And then if it's up to you to to take it or leave it. And you'll say well there must be a catch in it somewhere they obviously aren't doing it for free. And they're not of course because what happens is if you follow their advice and put ten pounds into Global Investment for example then Global Investments will at that stage will pay them. If if you don't they won't have any commission at all. So up to that point and if if none of you take advantage of their offer then they won't be paid at all. And you might say well I'll not take their advice I'll invest it directly with Global and you'll find that cos Global'll keep it for themselves . So if you it's a no no win situation in that sense. but the point I'm making is that up to the end of giving you advice it is perfectly free there is no charge on you whatsoever. So I hope I've not complicated that I I always find it's helpful to say this about this speaker this because no other speaker no speaker is here with a . Any questions on the . I certainly advise you to keep asking questions throughout because as I say although they're speaking in a very very general way the often slip up and give you a particular that you can take advantage and if you lead them on then the more information is available to you. Do are you aware of the difference between erm an advisor who is tied and one who is perfectly free. You do find advisors are tied I mentioned Global Investments they're tied to the Halifax Building Society. So that if our speaker for example had been John from the Halifax Building Society he would only be talking about Global Investments. And I've no criticism of Global investments they may well be the best for you. But it's such a limited range whereas the the and other bodies that come on these courses have got the whole the whole investment field so er you do get the the advantages there. And all those er independent advisors are members of FIMBRA I'm sure John will mention it. Financial investment managers etcetera etcetera. Is it also true to say that their guess is often no better than your own? I I wouldn't dispute that at all they they are really guessing except that er they are more likely to be right. So often in the financial press you see shares Yes. and the various advisors are saying Buy Buy Buy. If one of them is saying Mm sell that one. You think well Who is right? who is Right? I think they're probably making educated guesses aren't they whereas we're making stabs in the dark. FIMBRA anyway is the independent advisor and the other one's are members of LAUTRO . But I'm sure John will go into a lot of detail I only needed to mention . Now onto the solicitor one er although he is er he is in the commercial world he's he's not here under in the same way as John from . And legal speaker tends to talk only about wills making wills. Er I don't know how many of you made wills but er draw him out on other things if you've got any problems I mean we we had quite an interesting session at one of the power station talks on a er tenant er tenancy agreement that a chap had been bothered about for some years. A member of the group had been bothered hadn't been given the right advice for some years. So er it does tend to be as I say solely about wills well draw it out if you've got anything else you may not have. legal er situation at all then you know just ask questions here you get free legal advice which can't be bad. You've got an hour's free legal advice. Okay. I think that's all I need say by this time the next our next speaker is usually arriving so to sort of develop and not that there's a real need for it nor am I capable of doing so. But what we do find helpful at this stage is to consider the pluses and minuses getting you to contribute what you think are the pluses and minuses or retirement and then during the conclusion stage we sort of look at these again and wonder whether we've changed our view We hop you will because obviously this is the purpose of the of these talks. So I wonder if er I'll make a note of them I wonder if someone will start me off on on a list of what you think are the pluses and minuses of retirement. then as I say we'll discuss it towards the end. If we get the time. anybody like to start what what are the minuses of retirement, or a minus of retirement as you would see it? Be poorer we'll be poorer. Poorer . Not necessarily so but er generally poorer. I er I nearly fell through the floor a little while ago I was British Gas people and one of them living with this lady and I want to give her half of my lump sum, how can I do to avoid er to effect her income tax or inheritance tax thinking in terms of the inheritance tax limit of a hundred and fifty thousand I said, Well would you mind telling me about how much it will be? Oh yes he says a hundred and eighty thousand. and that was a half of his lump sum. So it really is astonishing The way some some people are top brass of British Gas but er it really is astonishing so when you say that we shall all we shall poorer generally so and yet er . That's very much a by the way just to make you feel a little bit Okay poorer, but we hope that er after the er 's talk that er that there's a real hope. Anything else. Stepping out of the system. Yes yes. Which has a sort of I'll compare it them with er some of the things that have been Lea leading on from that, the day by day constant contact with a lot of people. This is one that always comes up lot's of of working relations I just noticed I was reading one of these er incidentally I mentioned about British Gas er this is the one that they give all their . You know they do But anyway the point I was making was that they call it distant intimacy. Yeah right. Distant intimacy a novel way of putting it but er there we are. that feeling of of average. I don't know whether that's supposed to be a plus or a minus. Well said that man. Okay now anything on the minuses apart from this suggestion that that could be both. What about any pluses. I agree with you but erm but it can be tiresome can't if you if you're working with people who are a little bit er over the top or pushy people Well one of the obvious pluses is that I'll have a chance to do what I want to do when I want to do it. for the first time five years of ed Yeah yeah true. Whether it's a plus or a minus it could be a loss of responsibility. Although I enjoy responsibility. Yeah. That that could be a minus depending Minus. Could be a plus but it could be If you're the person who can ride with responsibility it it is a loss. But if you're the one who's struggling Making decisions and that sort of thing miss. You would miss yeah. So one of the one of the suggestions would be then that er you should try to get a similar sort of relationship in retirement. In a voluntary way a voluntary capacity working I mean in in this sense in my there is a sense of responsibility and I find that good and challenging which is perhaps one of the reasons why I like doing these courses because you you er a certain amount of stress and responsibility is is . It's when it goes beyond the point of . But yes I think that would be plus or a minus depending on your on your point of view. Right any more? I will yeah. I hadn't but yes thank you . Any really positive ones. Well we've had one do what I like is a real positive one. You can do your hobbies better. Yeah more time for hobbies. A better quality of hobby. Instead of doing loads of things Yeah. Better yeah . Quality. Right. Cheaper holidays. totally absolutely completely ready you guilty. And not feel guilty. Exactly. Not met that before yeah good one. Cheaper holidays. Yes very good very good yeah. More importantly off season holidays when there are no children around. . We've got a got a minute or two some some friends of ours were saying the other day they've booked a holiday at er very near the Por Portagil Portuguese Spanish border on the South Do you know it? It's rough. Now this is what I was saying about tal sitting next to the world expert in . Because these friends It's the wrong end of the Algarve they booked a six week holiday coming back on the first week on boxing day they've got free car hire for the whole six weeks, not the insurance. They're getting transport free from Man from home at erm to Manchester Airport. For four hundred and ninety five pounds and we said straight away well what's the catch? Well except if people are interested yes you know like by the sea packs of mangy dogs drifting up and down. Ah. Oh. So really they the benefit of this to those of you is that that this end of Portugal is like that is it. It's the eastern end of Portugal like that That bit. You said Yeah. that's what I'm talking about. It's just where you go up into Spain Erm River. And you go from Portugal up the river and into Spain don't you . Know we got lost with the time zone there because Portugal is an hour I mean charming people, lovely food So we've learnt something already Well I better not tell them because it will completely spoil their holiday but erm it's h it's interesting because we've been mentioning it to other people I'm sure they've never . Anyway cheaper holidays yes but er not at . Right. oh I'd suggest, with respect, that it should be included in a footnote to that affect so that the simple minded like myself when they see well cost value of, as almost eighteen million and a present day value of twenty eight million and over and look again at twelve hundred and four pounds I say where is the money gone? I think if there's, if there's a reason for not showing it there I think I comment to the bottom would satisfy most people. Thank you. Yes Moderator the Board's erm published accounts are prefaced by some comments on the accounting conventions that are used. Thank you. Number three. Number four. Number five. Number six. Moderator I was going to call you now because of the national health but you've preempted me. I'm awake. And I'm still five four eight. Right. Now don't be too surprised if this sounds like a question. Now I've learned, I've been since Saturday as I told you and I've, I've learned how to make a good question. Now what you've got to do is use the correct words and phrases and these are finally briefly now I thought I knew what that word meant until I came to the assembly. It seems to me in conclusion important Right a wee bit of background will help the assembly understand my being here. Now I had a kidney transplant in nineteen eighty four. The assembly made a very good decision in nineteen ninety to support the transplant programme. The assembly passed it to presbyteries and they in turn passed it on through their billets to ministers who in turn were supposed to pass it to sessions and it was supposed to be discussed at session level and turned down to ordinary congregations. Now unfortunately, that's how it should of worked but the message got lost down the line somewhere. Now these messages remind me of the old Tarzan movies, now you were all old enough now to remember the old Tarzan movies. In the old Tarzan movies they used drums, and they also used natives and the warriors carried a stick, they called it a forked stick and it looks like the assembly might need a new set of forked sticks because these messages keep getting lost between here and the congregation. The kidney transplant waiting list could have been reduced remarkably if the Church of Scotland had done their job properly. Now that is a good story for the press. It's not a bad one it's a good one. So finally, briefly and in conclusion This is where my question was coming I ask the convenor why the committee failed to follow up their good work by not promoting the kidney donor cards through ministers to the congregation. Now we, let's say for instance we've got five hundred thousand members of the church, and they in turn have a circle of friends and relatives of ten now you don't need to be a mathematician to find out that's five million. So that everyone in Scotland could have been covered and given the opportunity to carry a donor card. Now all churches should carry a supply of cards,t at all their functions even the general assembly. And I'm not just quite finished because I was gonna put a wee P S in, why don't we have the assembly at the S E C C? Because you've no stairs, you've got no hills and you've got bags of wee places to put your motor. I, I'm looking to see if Dr 's there because if he were me, or if I was him, I would say what the commissioner alleges is neither known nor admitted. Erm the Board has not failed to follow up its very good work. In fact it has followed it up with an absolutely excellent study pack which has been very widely used within the church. It has followed it up because I personally and other members of the Board and er and members of our staff have accepted invitations to go and speak to presbytery conferences on human transplants. I've been as far a a places as far apart as the presbytery of erm Annandale and Esdale which is to, what to south of Scotland, erm and I can't think of any corresponding place erm in the north but there have been places in the north that I've also gone to, and this is my donor card. And I I, I, I commend this to the church and I, and I'm glad the commissioner had a chance to come back and speak again about his concern about erm the waiting list for transplants. Please carry a donor card, please discuss it with your relatives, please discuss it with your congregation, please ensure that in the event of tragedy overtaking you your relatives know your views in advance on transplant surgery. And if it is your, your view that y y your, your organs may be used in, in advance, and if that's known to your relatives it'll make a very very difficult time for them a great deal less difficult than it might have been otherwise. Thank you. Thank you very much. Moderator I'd just like to thank the convenor. I hope you feel your intervention has been worthwhile and has borne fruit. I was proving to the convenor that I'd made a mark opposite that deliverance on which to call you. So he can prove it's true. Can we pass then to number seven? On number eight Dr has erm an addendum I think. Er fifty five. Moderator I've asked for this new clause to come in immediately after seven because of what in accepting seven we've just done. We have welcomed what the Board are doing, and we've encouraged them to find new ways of doing so more in meeting the needs of the elderly who increase in numbers here in Scotland. Now they cannot possibly do these things without becoming painfully aware, as I am sure they are already, of the problems arising through lack of financial er er financial sufficiency or poverty among the old people. Now let me read the words for the s benefit of those who don't have them add new section eight and rem renumber eight urge his majesty's government to give continuing and careful concern to the many situations in which lack of financial resources are still causing elderly people grave hardship. Having read that I immediately repent me in dust and ashes for having committed a dreadful grammatical error. I was so caught up in my plurals or situations in hardship that I didn't notice that the subject in more senses than one is a singular lack, and the verb should be is and not are, therefore I must ask the indulgence of the general assembly to change the verb. I don't think it needs to go down under the barrier act. Moderator it can't be very often that a young minister contradicts a giant of the church in open assembly but it did happen several years ago. In fact if the previous speaker has complained about waiting in patience, I have waited forty years to tell this story in the assembly because a young minister flatly contradicted a giant of the church, Dr John , the protagonist of national church extension. What happened was that he was a giant of the church indeed, and he behaved as one. I remember wickedly making a note at one assembly of the number of times he spoke and believe it or not the total was sixty seven. And I'm not setting that up as a record to be broken or a or a target to be aimed at because when I saw the sixty seven I remembered it's the number of the song that begins lord bless and pity us. Now how did a giant of the church get himself into such a position? In presenting the report to the national church extension committee, he made the astonishing statement that there is no longer any dire poverty in Scotland. Now how on earth did he say such a thing? He was falling into the trap of the enthusiast of overstating his case. It was a good case he wanted us to remember that there's a hunger for the word of God and that what we should be worried about was poverty in the things of the spirit but he made the blank statement and it shocked one young man called John who at the time was the minister of a church extension charge in one of our deprived housing situations. He went straight out, went to four families, whose names immediately suggested themselves to him, checked his facts and figures, got in while discussion was still on and flatly contradicted the great John and gave him the facts and figures to prove it, to tell him that he was wrong. What on earth has this got to do with my motion? Simply this that any government of any colour, at any level, central or local and any organization charged with the responsibility of meeting the needs of elderly people which proceeds on the tacit assumption or makes the blatant assertion that there is no longer any poverty in Scotland is requiring to be contradicted because it is not true. I haven't used the word poverty I've used a phrase about lack of financial resources because it relates more obviously and directly to many of the concerns of the Board for example almost certainly the real reason why there was no room in the inn at Bethlehem is that the income of a village carpenter didn't go near the exorbitant prices being charged by mine host when, to use the good Scots phrase, the cow calved and there was this boom over the crows for the census. In other words, lack of financial resources can contribute to homelessness and it does. And in all our consideration about homelessness to which the report rightly refers, we must remember that lack of financial resources is a contributory factor and how many in the assembly know that while we naturally think, in homelessness, of our tragic young people, five per cent of the homeless are elderly. Like the exiled Scots sitting up in bed with his cap on in Sidney Royal Infirmary, asked by the retired sister who visited people like him who had no friends how old he was, he says ninety two. Oh where do you live? Central station, platform six. Contributing to homelessness. Moderator if the Board wanted a patron saint, my sole nominee would certainly be the good Samaritan cos he got it right. He was faced with a situation where he had to deliver a service, to use the jargon of social work which has dropped into their report. He went not to collect particulars and feed them into a computer, he went to get down on his knees and get himself covered in mud and blood. He did not qualify him for income support, he supported him on to the back of his ass, he took him to the inn. He took care of him and the Greek verb means that he literally took total charge of his case, in other words he probably stayed up all night nursing him, and so he made the inn into temporarily a nursing home and we're back into another area of the Board's concerns. But he gave two pence, how miserable can you get? But put the two pence in their contemporary context. We know from the parable of the labourers in the vineyard that one penny or one donarius was an accepted whole day's wage for a twelve day in the heat of the sun in the great harvest, so the two pence was the equivalent of two days' wages. Now bring it back to the modern time of the five day week, what is two fifths, or what are two fifths of the wage? At the end of last year the national average wage in the manufacturing industries would give you, for two fifths, one hundred and fourteen pounds. What does a pensioner get? Now a pensioner, over eighty and in poor health, possibly requiring special food that costs more, certainly requiring extra heating in cold weather, will get sixty three pounds twenty. And if anybody thinks that with reasonable budgeting you could manage on sixty three twenty, I challenge you to do a little personal budgeting. You've got no savings you've got no relatives you can fall back on, you have no other source of income and you've got to pay for everything off of sixty three twenty. So what in fact happens? I'm not going to leave you with statistics, they don't get me any longer, I've developed an immunity to statistics, thank God. There are a hundred and seventy thousand people in Scotland who qualify for income support, whether they get it or not is not the point, but that's the size of the problem. And what happens in actual human situations which are what get me, and I'm going to give you three and I guarantee their genuineness you will doubt them all I have not the least fear but I guarantee you their genuineness, they come from the records of Age Concern Scotland of which I am the president. Here are a couple who are doing very awkward cooking over an open fire because their cooker has packed in and they can get a new one only in terms of a loan which is compulsorily payable by deduction from their, from their pension every week and they've a Scot's dread of debt. Here are a couple who must be just rejoicing in this kind of weather because when it's cold the only way they get warm is to take their shoes or boots off and go into bed in the early evening with all their clothes on. Here is a little old woman in her upper eighties, never been married, no relatives, outlived all her generation. Her boon companion is a cairn terrier called Sandy and Sandy's leash is her lifeline. Sandy takes her for walks, not the other way round. And because she happens to live reasonably near a park, she walks Sandy or Sandy walks her in the park, she meets other dog walkers and they are her human contacts. Sandy means an awful lot in that old lady's life and she does occasionally reach the point when she's got so little money left that believe it or not she has to choose between buying food for herself and buying dog food for Sandy. Now don't say it's a silly, sentimental story, that's what poverty means in real terms to actual people. Three years ago when the new regulations came into force the then Secretary of State for Social Security said this means the end of the era of poverty. Now John was not afraid to tell somebody as great as John that he was wrong and I see no reason why this general assembly should be afraid or inhibited about telling the authorities that they are wrong. If and when they work on the tacit assumption or make such a blatant assertion as that, that there is no longer any poverty, because it is not true and unless and until it is true neither they nor we have got any right to be content. Is that seconded? Seconded. The convenor I think is willing to accept this. Yes Moderator. Erm er I'm very grateful to Dr and I'll offer him another story, a woman who's now died whom I used to visit who sat with her coal fire set but not lit until someone would come to the door. She'd always say she'd just put coal in the fire. That kind of situation, Dr is entirely right to say to the general assembly, that kind of situation is utterly unforgivable, it's utterly unforgivable. Next year I'll report to the general assembly erm, if all things are equal, that the Board will by then have set up a scheme to allow care workers to go out from our erm residential establishments into the community to extend the kind of professional service that we're able to give in our establishments to people who live in the community. That's something that will need to be financed and it's something which the Board will need to find the money to do. I, I in no way want to resist Dr 's erm er addendum, I hope that the general assembly will simply erm accept it by acclaim. Will the assembly accept it? Thank you. Then we pass to number nine. Yes please. thirteen twelve. Visitor delegate from the Christian Church Disciples of Christ in the U S and Canada. It appears that there are many points at which er we can identify with one another or I have found that I can identify with the church and its social responsibility in this country because of our experience in my country. The cut back of social services by public agencies has meant for us, and I'm sure for you, er the church becomes more and more important in helping people survive and live more fully. In erm our situation dedicated persons on the front lines have found themselves overwhelmed by increases in human needs and dwindling resources with which to meet those human needs and so we've tried to get innovative and do something about it. In our particular ministry in St Louis Missouri we are trying to use the vast technology that's available to us in linking up with other organizations such as Catholic charities, Salvation Army and others, so that when persons are in need of help they can go to one organization and tell their story and they don't have to keep going from place to place telling their story over and over and we're beginning to look toward the use of computers and what they are capable of doing in order to help resources stretch. And I think the, the kinds of er ministries expressed in item nine erm in which service delivery and the changing needs of individuals and the regular personal crises demand that kind of er linking and working together. There is also technology available which can link organizations throughout the world and so that when er the church in one place discovers a resource or a way to work with people around a particular need, they have the opportunity to share that and I would be interested in talking with persons who might have an interest in that. A man came to us for food recently, but he also needed spiritual counselling. He was on the point of taking his own life because he was depressed over his ill health and at the, in the church one can find spiritual food and physical food together, and in our country that's about the only place where you can find those two together. Later he said to me that we had been very helpful to him and he said it's bad enough to be depressed but when you're depressed and hungry, it's really bad. I think that the church has the responsibility to continue to find new and innovative ways of reaching out and doing a better job and that is er testimony to the fact that we can continue to reach out to persons who are suffering in many ways, and I would appreciate and look forward to learning better from you how to do that and would be happy to share. Thank you very much. Pass to number er ten eleven twelve thirteen fourteen Please. I wish to inject an addendum in deliverance fourteen after the words each other, helping each other to continue to mature add the words christian worship together is seen as a priority. Moderator in the course of my lifetime I believe one of the big changes within a family has been the fact that grace is no longer said at meal times. In so many of the homes that I visit that is patently clear. Perhaps it's a small thing but it's a touchstone of other things and a reflection of the importance given to God and christian principles in the home. I believe christian worship within the home and with the family together should be seen as a priority and therefore I'm not satisfied with the convenor's comments earlier on in answer to my question. I believe if this is indeed a statement about the christian ideal of marriage, then we should put worship at the very centre of it. Shared worship, moreover, increases the trust and security which the words that follow my suggested addendum make clear. In this context of trust and security they engage in sexual relations. I believe that christian worship together is a vital and important place where such trust and security and the togetherness can be built up. The only christian element of this ideal, this christian ideal, is the mention of the word God in the promises made at marriage. How regrettable it is that so often in the marriages that we come across, those are the only promises that seem to be made, and the only mention of God within the family. My contention is that God and christian principles need to be set explicitly and overtly at the heart of this declaration of ideals. We heard the other day from Professor about the importance of a godly mother. I would add to that the importance, I am not a sexist, of a godly father. I think it's very important that we should make clear On? Right, I'll go and get a video, okay? Yeah I don't know what's on. Alright. And er warm this food up again. Right. Do you want the telly on? What you doing Vick? Eh? What you doing? I'm watching telly. Are you? Playing with your teddy? Ah? You go building together. Put it back together then. You show Mummmy how it goes. Alright? There! You show me what a clever girl you are? and look. Ooh! Ooh ooh ooh! He's fallen to pieces ain't he? Can't do it like that can you? No! No, oh oh oh! Mummy go and put the kettle on. Ee ee. You what? Ee ee! Lee? Lee. Yeah, Daddy's picking Lee up. Yeah. Oh! Yes, he's doing the leaves. Put it in. Okay. Ha! Where's his chair? Behind you! Oh yeah! Hello sausage! . That's your brother! He was crying. Mummy wants to move the . Please? Pour that in here. I ca oh ! Have you put his er bib on him? Yeah, I see. If he's gonna have his gonna have his er Put it back! dinner come tea s Good girl! so he didn't eat it all at dinner time. Yeah. Good girl! That's me! No, it's just the What are you gonna have for tea Vicki? And please Get up! Please can I have sausage, bacon and eggs? Can you hold him up a minute. Yes please. What do you want? Well he's still got his bib on. Yeah, and I was trying to do it up. Oh! No, no, no, just leave it! No, cos you're no good at doing up! There are look, like that! That's it. There are. He's funny ain't he? Yeah. Ooh my head's gone! Er ah! Looks as though he's got his nappy on his head! Ah! My headache's gone isn't it? Vicki look, what you gonna have for tea? Bacon. ! What you want for tea? I like ! You what? Lee. Yeah, Lee's gonna have his. And he's gonna have this now. I'll I'll ki ki Lee. Yeah Lee. I'll . Yeah, Lee's gonna have his tea, what do you want for yours? No! Well don't you want any then? No. No? Fine! Please yourself! That's Lee's. Yeah, I'm gonna do Lee's now for him. Ki ki Oh yeah ! He Look at him laughing look! Hello cheeky! Hello cheeky! I'll collect Yeah, here's your cup. Can you stir his food round please? Yep! In this dish? You having tea? But, oh . No! No? No? No ! No! No? No! Ooh! Ooh! No? I'm not moving! In't she naughty eh? Your sister naughty? Yeah. Did you? No! Did you? Did she? Vicki! Er ah What? You what? No! Yes! No. as you're told. Daddy said yes. No! Are you naughty? Mm. Are you naughty? Ha! Well said no! No, you're not naughty? Move! Move! I'm not moving! Go over Daddy. I'll smack your bum! Cheeky! Will we eh? Shall we smack her bum! No, it's not yours, it's your brother's. Shall we smack her bum? Hey ? There! Like that! I want Mummy! You gonna have your tea? Are you? Daddy! How much do you want in? Well not very! Gotta be a bit thick! Ain't they, eh? Can't have it all runny Aha. can you? That'll do! Cheeky! that'll do! Shall I add all that round the side which went all hard? It's alright! Put it in. You've seen it It's not the only thing that goes hard you know! Shut up!! Oh yeah! Eh eh! Ki Vicki's. No it's Your not Vicki's! It's Lee's! You'll Ha ha! I know, I just had some of it! Oh yeah? Yeah. It's not yours! Now go away! It's your brother's innit? This is his only, this is first week on so We try and Yes you can. This is only his first week on food like this. Dinner then. No. So bog off! Mummy will do your tea afterwards. Where is where's ? Well she's going round to Mum and Dad's. Well she obviously knows . Gary! I can't feed her without Vicki! blooming ! Come on! Come on! How can I feed him on this! Do you want the rest of your crisps? Er no! No! No! No? They're all Ha! Oh oh oh! What do you want, a glass of lemon? Or lemonade? No! No, don't want that. Lemon. Yeah. Lemon? Daddy. Come on then! Go on then , Daddy'll get you some. And ask Daddy to do Lee a bottle. Yeah. It's alright. Will you do him his bottle as well Ga ? Yes. Then you have your tea, eh? Vicki! Ah! Oh oh! Lemon? Daddy! Or ? Come on then, let's stiffen it up. It's mine Daddy! Yeah! Come on ! Want this? Alright. That's better. Daddy. It's ,da Daddy. Oh! There we go! Come on then! Alright now Vick? Vicki? Are you alright? Yeah. Hey? Ah. Mm! What does that mean? Yeah? Then to go where they are, yeah? Yeah. Coffee? Yes please. Who's coming tomorrow Vicki? Di Is she? Is Di coming? No I don't think so. Nanny. No, nanny's not. Oh yeah. No, who do you go shopping with? Ganga Granddad, yeah. Is Granddad coming tomorrow? Yeah. Is he? Pick it up! Ganga car. You go in his car do you? Yeah. He ha ah! What do you do when you see Granddad coming down in his lorry? What's that? Can I put the water on? You don't need it on! Like like that! I've done the washing. Bath bath! Yeah, you can have a bath later. Yeah! Daddy take you? You have a bath after you've had your tea and then you go to bed. Daddy take you after tea? What do you do when you see Granddad coming down there in his lorry? What do you say? He don't come down there now does he? No. What do you say? He doesn't come down there. What do you do? What do you say? I know Granddad! Granddad! What else do you do? Go and get me your book then? Where's your book? I want , you won't like it! Did you have a card? She said this morning. A card? Yeah. No! Birthday card? Oh yes, from Nicky! She says she's going to come round and see me some time. Which one. Er the bottom bottom one nearest the stereo. In the unit. Mm mm. With the bell in it? I can't see it. Is it up there? That's the one. Next to your Mum's. We will be seeing her, seeing, we're going out aren't we, in a couple of weeks time? Well, we don't know yet do we? What day is it? Well it's supposed to be the second week in March that Lyn and Gary come down. Oh your Dad said he'd be alright to stay here . Who did? Your Dad. Did he? Oh I think so, yeah. No! I ain't asked him yet! Aye, he said to your Mum cos I thought she said might she'd have them again. No! It's too much innit? What? Won't hurt her Gary! Or your Mum? Yeah, but they're decorating aren't they? Well they're not for another two or three weeks! How do you know that? They've already started! It's . No, it's, they just started the kitchen! Started the kitchen. Yeah, and he's started the kitchen. I don't think you want that do you mate? Is his bottle ready? Yeah. Yeah, can I have it, he don't want this food. Try it first bottle. No it's, when I phoned her, went and saw the other night. What night was it? Tuesday night weren't it, when Dad was here? Yep! I phoned her up and er Is this ready for wash? Yeah. I phoned her up and she said they'd started decorating lifting the tiles off on the kitchen wall. Are they? Yeah. That's why he don't know when he's gonna get round to see Kevin. Ah yeah! He said it might be tomorrow night, it might not be. He might pop round tonight. Well they might do but I'm, dunno wouldn't like to say. Cos Mum didn't seem to think when she'd be down with him doing that and then they've Di's bedroom to do. Is he drinking that? Yeah. Well seems to be. You put the top on right haven't you? Yes. Coffee madam! Ta! Oh! Mm! I'll have to put it here. I've got some Put it there look. touch it. No, cos I want can you pass me the ashtray and the fags. Thank you. Mummy can have a fag now you're not eating it. In fact, can you stop doing it on the . Yeah certainly! I'll let you finish your fags. Oh yeah, not up there Well I dunno where cos of Vicki. you wanna put it! Prefer it to be down there then I can you stay there! Can I put me slippers on? You've got your own drink haven't you? Oh yeah! I I . Alright mate! Hold on! Er er er! it. Go on then, drink up! Good boy! And where are you going? Get me your book then Vicki? No. No, not that one! Go and get me your little one. Where's the red one with the toothbrush and that in it? Eh? Is it out in the kitchen? Yeah. Well go and get it then. Ask Daddy to get it. Oh oh! What's that? She wants her book off the top. ? Yeah. Those miniature books,? Mm. Er er . Come and sit down there and do it with Mummy. Sounds dirty! No! She goes through the book don't she? Tells me who's got shoes and hat and coat and everything. Right! What, no, you can't do that! Now you can. Here are then. Move your bag over there. Hello mate! Right, come on then look! Ooh! Right , Mummy turn the pages over and you tell me what they all are. Oh! What's that? Cat. Cat. And who's got a cat? Ganny. Granny. Er, I don't like that! I know you don't like that, it's a panda. Pinka Panda. Choo choo! What's that? Er a teddy. Oops! Train. It's what? A train. A train. Good girl! And who's got a train? Vicki. Yeah, Vicki has! Yeah, it's over there innit? And what's that? There. Yeah, but what is it? Baby Baby boy. That's right! And what's that? That's a brush. Brush. Comb. Comb. What's that? Toothbrush. Yeah, it's a toothbrush innit? You clean your teeth with that don't you? What's that? Shoes. And who's got shoes? Di! Dianne has she? Yeah. Well I think most people have got shoes Vicki! What's that? Socks. Socks. And what's that? Boots. Boots. Who's got boots? Fly. Fly has has he? And I. And I! And Daddy. Yeah that's right. And what's that? Daddy's got boots. Coat. Coat. And what's that? Hat. Hat. Who's got a hat? Carl. Carl. And what's that? Shish. You have your dish don't you and your Spoon. spoon for your tea, yeah. And what's that? Cu Cup. What's that? Teddy. Teddy. And what's that? Dolly. Dolly. Mm. She can't answer it! What's that? Ball. Ball, yes! And what's that? Kick it. Yeah, you kick the ball don't you? You kick with a ball , that's right! What's that? What's that Vick? What's this? Car. And what do you do in a car? Go out? Well what's that? A cow. And how's a cow A cow. go? Moo! And who's got a cow? Nanny. Nanny has. And where's That nanny's? cow. Nanny's got a cow on her fridge ain't she? cow. I know what's in there! I spot check! Cheeky little sod! What's that? A cat. No! Sheep. Sheep. What's that? Horse. Horse, that's right! And what's that? Ah. Hen. Yeah. And what's that? Cat ah. A cat. Good girl! And what's that? Little dog. It's a dog innit? Ke Uncle Kev and? Sa No. And Aunty Samma No! No! Uncle Kev and Aunty? Ang . Ang. And who else has got a dog? De Kevin. Where did we go for dinner on Sunday? We go to Aunty Shello Shelly. And Uncle? Right! And who's car did you go in? Uncle? Phil's , that's right! Phil's. And what's that? Mhm. Lee goes in that does he? He goes in a pushchair don't he? Yeah! What's that? Chair. Chair. And who's got a chair? Vicki. And what's that for? What do you use your chair for? Tea! Tea, yeah. And what's that? Baby Baby what? boy. Boy, yeah. And what's that? No, baby? Boy. No, that's a baby boy and that's a baby? Boy! No, what are you? Baby. What are you? A girl. Girl. Baby boy. And what's that? Tree. Tree yeah! And where are the trees? That's right! Outside aren't they? And what's that? Flower. Where's Mummy's flowers? Where are Mummy's flowers? Up there look! Aren't they? And who bought them for Mummy? As Aunty Pam would say there's Mummy's coronations! Oh yeah ! Yeah, Aunty Pam can't say carnations can she Vicki? She has to say coronations! Yeah. What's that? What is it? She can't say carnations! Boy. Boy. And er? Girl! Girl! Girl. Shoes! She's got shoes on has she? I've . What have you got on? I've shoes. Shoes? Yeah. No, what have you got on? Pop-ons. You got your pop-ons. And what's that? Truck. And what's that? Bricks. Bricks. And who's got the truck and bricks? Vicki. Yeah, Vicki has! What's that? There. Yeah, it's over there innit? That's right! What's that? What's this? Erm book. Book. And what's that? . And what's that? Say it again. A bag. A bag, yes. And what's that? Keys. Keys. And who's got who's got keys? Granddad. That's right! And what's that? Clock. Watch. What's that? Lorry. No, it's not a lorry. What is it? A bus. It's a bus innit? And what's that? Car. A car, that's right! Alright, so what's this? Orange. Orange. Good boy! And what's that? Apple. Apple. You want pudding? And what's that? Orange. No! Nana. Nana . Yes! And wait for it! What's that? Bath. Bath. And what's that? A duck. Duck. Soap. Soap . So soap! Ooh! Ooh! Bloody hell mate! Who's got wind ? And what's that? Boat. Boats. And that's it! All done! Good girl! Good boy! Yeah. Your brother got wind! No! Yeah ! Oh no! What's that? That's a rabbit Bu innit? And what did Mummy have to do Good boy! with your rabbit? Mm. Is that better? Yeah, your cuddly rabbit that er Aunty Nicky bought you for Christmas weren't it? Yeah. It's in your bedroom innit? Mm. Mummy! Mummy! Yeah, what darling? Mummy! Yeah, Mummy put it away Tickle ickle ickle ickle ickle! didn't she? Tickle ickle ickle ickle ickle ickle ick! Yeah. You're not to be frightened of it you know. What's that? That's cos it's like Thumper innit? Like she's Yeah. got? Innit? Pardon me! Look! Another rabbit look on the telly! That's like that one innit? A orange rabbit. Well if Daddy turns the telly over can watch Edd can't you? Yeah. Edd. E You don't have to turn the sound up. Here are, look who's that? No it's not Neighbours! Not yet ! It's it's Abers. No it's not Neighbours! Who's that look? Who is it? It's E Edd. And who's got Edd? ! Who's got Edd? His eye looks sore. Does it? Edd the Duck innit? Who gave you your Edd? Ja Jason did did he? Yeah. And? Who bought your other one? No ! Mum No!. didn't! Mummy. Mummy and Daddy. Oh. Mummy bought it for Daddy really! And it's Abers. No, it's not Neighbours! Not yet ! Ah. Yeah, you'll see Edd again in a minute. Yeah. Ooh! Oops! Right in the old left Oh! yeah. Was that funny? Mm mm. That hurt me! Was that funny? Ah, it was. Does your Dad know you've come home? Jimmy was gonna let him know. Oh was he? So you didn't say anything this morning? He said gonna try and last up to, I said well I've gotta go so I'll see how I go but I was shaking I just couldn't! What did your Mum say then? She give me some T C P pastilles. Is that all? Dad give me wha what he had in his truck as well. I thought they were for sore throats and things Gary? They are. Well you haven't got a sore throat have you? Mm. Oh you have! Hello mate! Are you cheeky! Had a sore throat for a couple of days! Hiya cheeky! Oh Mummy But it's not just the sore throat, it's when I cough it hurts all over. I forgot to ask your Mum yesterday, Dad wants two films getting before next Saturday. Oh yeah! For Di's do. Yeah. But he says he's gonna pay me on he's gonna give me the money on Tuesday Shall I get her to get them tomorrow? Eh? Shall I ask her to get No! them tomorrow? No, cos sh I always give her the money beforehand. So on Saturday I'll ask her if she can get them Wednesday for me definitely cos then you can I can get the money off Dad Tuesday you can give it her Wednesday morning, and then I can pick them up Wednesday afternoon when I go over. But as long as she don't forget Ga cos I won't see her, well we'll see her on the Saturday but it well I suppose that'll that won't make much difference will it? I suppose we could have them then. Provi he wants to put them in his camera and that see, so Mm mm. Oh! Yeah, what is it? Are you going in the bath later then? Daddy take you for a bath? Mm. Mm. Not yet though. No, not yet. All have some We'll have so some tea first. We'll do tea early seeing as her Daddy's home from work. Put the fire back on again soon. Oh no you'll have to . No, leave I've gone cold again! Eh! Ah! Mm. Ah! Ah! Oh yeah it's hot innit? Cold. Mummy. It's not cold! No, warm. Warm is it ? Mm. Look cold his hands are closed. You been in the bedroom haven't you mate? And you the heater's not on. I ain't put the heater on. Oh ain't you? No! It's warm. It's warm is it? Yeah. Where is it warm? In there. You what? Warm. Warm? I see! Ah! Warm your hands up don't you, when you're cold? Ooh ooh, ooh ooh ooh! It's Can you do it Mummy. Do it to Mummy. That's it! Ooh what a smile! Rub my hands together . Smile for Daddy. Cold. Am I cold am I? Can you smile for your Daddy? Ah! Can you smile for your Daddy? Pardon! Vicki! Oh Vicki! What was that? Hmm! Mummy. Oh dear! It wasn't Mummy! Vicki. Yeah, it was you weren't it? Sounded like Mummy! my Mummy nice. Is it? Yeah. Really ? It's , Daddy. Granddad. Is it? Yeah. Alright then. That was Daddy. Really! I dunno what you're saying! I've What are you trying to tell me? Cough it up! Not like yesterday. You're not gonna be sick are you? I kiss you . You dirty little devil! No, Mummy you! It wasn't Mummy! It was you! I made Mummy . Mm! Really? And What do you think you're doing miss! Now what you got? You ain't got a dirty bum have you? Oh! weren't very nice! You smell ! Did it? Have you? It is very Hello mate! nice. You need a bath! A bath! You need your face washing He can have one tonight as well, yeah. But I I Oh God! You don't wanna clean your teeth do you Vicki? It takes you about three hours! Are you going in the bath? Yeah. Well I know you are! I want with Daddy. Daddy's going to take you is he? Yeah. And Mummy. No, I'm not! Daddy. Mm. I, Lee. Lee's gonna have a bath is he later? Yeah. Shall we get some sausages out then darling? Go on then. Haven't drunk my coffee yet. I'll do it for you my love! Oh you bloody creep ! Oh . What are you doing? How many I just do you want? You're doing . Only four. Oh, and you better make it five cos And me! Vicki can have one. Aren't we having Well don't yo you don't want anything cooked do you? Do, yeah. We gotta put them in the deep fat fryer. Oh no! It's not worth getting that out is it? I dunno, it's up to you. No, I wouldn't It's just as easy innit? No . Get them all in one go then. Mummy, my Mummy. Yeah. Get them all in in one go. Mummy you . I've left the lot out. Yeah. Mummy, my Mummy . You want five do you? Mhm. Well what are you trying to say? Yeah. It's It's up to you, what do you wanna do? Wanna get the deep fat fryer out or not? No. No, okay Erm then. Put them on a plate, right? Yeah. I said that! Pardon ? I said ah er er. Do you wanna sausage sandwich for tea? Daddy! Daddy! Okay. Then we have roast tomorrow night can't we? Yeah. chair Daddy? Mm? A chair. No, you won't go in your chair yet! I'll wait for Daddy. Mm. Er! That's twelve out, okay? Ah Bloody hell! I thought you were gonna have the bacon? Well I'll have a bit of bacon as well. There's not a lot of bacon. Can you get some tomorrow? I'll haven't I? Dad, Daddy! Day Daddy. Well I didn't get any last week cos there was still a lot, lot in there Ga . Well taken a lot. Has he? Are you talking as well? Eh? And me! You what? That's boy. That's Mummy's coffee! Leave it alone! Don't get them same time will you? Keep your eyes off! You won't ke get all them under the grill as well as the bacon. Yeah. Mm. Ya. Will you? Eh? Ya. Thought that was Dad then, but it's not he's at work. No Vicki! You won't get all them No, don't do that! under the grill will you? Sh As well as the bacon? Do the bacon with the in the erm frying pan. Shall I whack it under the grill now? No, not till after. play. No, leave him Vicki! He don't wanna be lifted up! Think we eggs?weren't they? Say We'll leave it. Say train, play. Pick his bottle up Vicki please? Want some more? No, go and take it out in the kitchen for Mummy. More? No I don't think he wants it! No. Yeah. No. It's okay. He don't want it! More. Give it Daddy darling. Give it to Daddy. There. No, give it to Daddy. Ah! Give it Daddy. Ah! No it can't go up there. No, give it Daddy! Ah! Here are, Daddy take it out in the kitchen. Ha! No? No. Oops! Ooh God! You sat on him! Ha, ha ha ah ah ! You give him a kiss now cos you sat on him. Look! Mm? Will I do tea? Not yet! No, nothing like that. She's trying to put that up there Gary. Right, Daddy do it? There you go! Yeah. No. Shall I give your brother a kiss cos you sat on him? Good girl! Sorry! Sorry! Sorry! Yeah, she's saying to him. Good girl! Yeah. Where you going now? You just laugh don't you mate, eh? Come back here. Sorry! Sorry, yeah alright, you said sorry! Sorry! Oh! Sorry! Sorry! It's alright innit mate? Come back here! What you looking at? What have you seen? No, oh oh oh oh! No , no, no, no, no, no! No! No! No! No! No! Don't kick Vicki! Oh look Vick! Look what's on the telly! On our telly look! Vicki! Vicki! I was gonna clean my tank tonight Jean but I suppose that's Mm? Don't kick Mummy darling? It needs cleaning though doesn't it? It does need cleaning,! Peepbo! You tired mate? Ooh mind your feet Vick! Peepbo! No. Don't want any kicking! Daddy's. No, it's not Daddy's, it's that lady's innit? Yeah. That lady brought it Yeah don't touch that! didn't she? Mummy. Yeah, well you don't touch! It's not ours! Daddy. A lot of money that! Lady. Yeah, that lady brought them didn't she? Mm. That's right! Mm. Was she outside was she, in a car? Is she gone? Have a look see if she's gone. Ga this blooming cup's all sticky! Mm! With his food! Mind you don't fall! Has she gone? Who can you see out there then Vick? Er, a lady. No, that lady's gone ain't she? Oh! Yeah. She'll be back next week. Yeah. And back. Ooh! Oops! Ooh bloody Oops! hell! She nearly You alright? went! Ooh ooh ooh! Ooh ooh, what have you done? Nearly fell didn't you? You're silly aren't you? Mm. Are you silly? A yeah. Yeah? Daddy. You watch you don't fall! The lady. No, the lady's gone! Is it snowing out there? I she ah,! Leave that on tape . I quite like that. No, don't turn it up! Ah! Ah! They'll make up some Ah! you can still er Ah! Ah! Ah, ah, ah! follow it cos , they probably don't Ah! You have to make up words from the letters that they've er but in that order. Like that erm erm I can't think of any ! Er Big words? Well no! Could be anything at all. But they've gotta be in that order. H L T Like it's gotta start with a P, then it's gotta have a P before the, before the H. Mhm. If you see what I mean? Mm. Me and your Mum sitting doing one on Wednesday. We're a bit we're a bit thick ! Then again they don't give us enough time. You could do with like, longer. And then it's er this is Catchword, then at half past four it's Countdown. Is this how you what as he got Daddy. little glasses. Mm. Lady. Lady. Yeah. I don't think Mummy's gotta get up now cos I'm stuck on the floor! It's all gone. ! I,. Mind your brother please. Nice? Yum yum! Can you hold that a minute for me while I get up? Ta! Cor! Oh these are quite good! Anagrams or something. All of Red Ben is er there are! Alfred Noble. It's alright when they bring it up on the screen and then tell you. Ooh! No ! Put him down ! No, Vick you don't pick his up! Gently! Yes it is. Oh no it isn't. You cut a fresh orange and lay it in there she wouldn't go in there cos they don't like cats don't like the smell of orange. Yeah? If I eat an orange Well yeah but the only point is Susan she perhaps don't like the smell of orange but then she might go in my room and pee in there if she didn't have nowhere else to go. Well put nights then. I'll tell you what it is, that's since you've had that ginger cat she's done it. She is frightened of that ginger cat Susan. She's petrified of it. She won't go out there. Yeah but he won't hurt her. She doesn't know. Well you can't tell her that can you? Are you off then? See you in a minute then. Oh I feel shattered today. Hey mum look, this is his move. I ain't done a stroke of housework. Mum look he all your christmas shopping? I've got Bobby's I've got him a tape. Mum look he can do four things. I got his. He can go Erm I've got mum's, part of mum's. I got her a nightdress. It's just a blue one, plain blue one with little white spots on and a bow at the top. How much was that? Er seven ninety nine I got it Well do you think she'd want another one? No. She told me she wants some more of them tabard tops. What are they? You know them tops she wears, like an apron thing. She wants a couple of them she, well she said get June to get me one of those. That's what she said. Well I'm not gonna get her one of them am I? Well you could get her that and get her something else. I tell you what perfume she likes, Taboo if you can get it. You can't get it though can you? Well I'll have a look in Wait mum look. These are his moves. You don't think that teapot is a good idea then? Mum. Pwooor pwooor Well yes I do I thought that's what you can you smell the vinegar? That's vinegar. Wait mum he can do five moves. One he can throw a ball. Two he can grab them by the legs. . Three I don't know why they like them models. he can grab them by the hands They're all in. There was two little boys come in his age come in like that. and er they was Four looking at them. I said are these all the craze at the moment? He said yeah. What are they called? What these? Yeah. Just figures. No they're called something. Oh W W figures. W W F? That means er What does W W F stand for then? World Wrestling Federation. Oh, I see. Wrestling's back in fashion then? No. Wrestling. We used to watch it on Saturday afternoons, that always used to be on, wrestling. Yeah. My other one which is a proper move is that. It's a bearhug. The only thing, I was telling you I've got half of mum's. I got dad's, I got him a video. I've got Bob the tapes. Told you what I got Geoff. I've got you know who's here. Erm think that's all I've got. Ain't got yours yet. I've got yours Val's and Sarah's and some of his. Oh you've got your main ones . You've got mine? Some of yours. Have you got me any of these men? No cos I didn't know you wanted them till last week did I? Perhaps erm I Someone 'll buy you some. Perhaps I c And you want a vide erm computer games as well don't you? Yeah. You'll have to break down what I want And I wouldn't mind Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles the video. Oh. Well that's something somebody could get him. But it's great expenditure. How much is it? About thirteen ninety nine I think. Yeah. Aah! Aah! You make enough noise. No I hit me little toe. Aah. Don't be silly. He's got a point on. Aah. That little pussy cat come from the pet shop. That's a nice one. I just wear him cos I quite like him. He reminds me of muggins. I like that jumper you've got on. I got this out of mother's catalogue. Trouble is that picks up the dust. Picks up my navy coat, cor don't they pick up the bits? Oh no. Wait mum We go out for our christmas meal on Friday. Where you going? Bears Restaurant. Do I look tired? Yeah not get up early in the morning? I'm not getting up early tomorrow. I feel absolutely shattered to be quite honest. Well I ain't gonna cook dinner. We're gonna go erm Mr didn't wanna work tomorrow really though cos I've gotta be I've gotta meet that new dentist tomorrow but obviously I owe him. So I gotta get your birthday present now. What was it lis on your list? Dunno. I can't remember what you put on your list. You never give me the list. Mum's got it I think. Just look at my ear June, I want you to check this lump. Oh do you know, it's a funny thing when I had my ears pie ear pierced years ago that poured blood Did it? the other day. I reckon there was a little blood clot or something behind it. Look, now this lump on my lughole, now what is that? A mole. That ain't a mole. Cos I've never had a mole there. That is a mole. Well that's getting bigger then. You feel how hard it is. You pick it up virtually. Yeah but it is a mole, I can assure you. Oh well I That's brown. Why would that just come up on my ear like that? Moles do don't they? Oh got him! But irritates. It irritates and painful. Itches, all the time. I'll have to get . Are you thirsty? I'm tired. I've been up since quarter to five. What the hell did you get up for? I done the ironing this morning. So you can sit down and have a sleep tonight then? Well no, I shan't get up ear definitely shan't get up till about eight tomorrow. No I probably won't. What I'll do when I get home is probably do a few jobs and then watch the film. Well I did do all my housework, you'd never know I'd done it. What? Just I've been all round look. I changed it this morning, I've had all them glasses out Well I haven't been in and sat in our lounge this week. I had all my corner cabinet that corner cabinet out and put it down this end cos I've wanted to move it cos I've wanted me christmas tree. Well I said to Mr , I said well this is the first time I've sat in your lounge for nearly two years. What did he say? I can't believe it! I said well it is. I said ooh cos I said when I come here we're always so busy I said I only get as far as er er the kitchen don't I? And I said then I go to the surgery I said and I don't go in the lounge do I? I don't know Why would you go in there for? Well he put the video on you see of erm Queen. So I went in there to watch it. And I said to him last night Is that that one who died? Yeah. Freddie Mercury. He was really good on stage, ooh what a performer. Two hundred and fifty thousand people he played to Jonathan. Cor. Wait, you know that new Michael Jackson song? Which one? Michael Jackson's new song, black and white? Oh yeah. Yeah guess how much that cost? How much? Four million four hundred and thirty two thousand. Five Cor thousand two hundred a second. Well Mr was saying that Freddie Mercury is worth twenty five million. And we worry about . Yeah . Yeah, that transformer. Do you know how much a new one of them is for that game, that? Twenty three pound. Twenty three pound. So she said write to Hornby and tell them. That didn't come from Hornby. That is Hornby. It isn't. What is it then? Not Hornby. Well it should tell you on it. No it tells you on the box. There goes the phone. Can you play basketball and bounce the ball? I wouldn't bounce a ball in your mother's kitchen where all her things are. They'll get broken. I got one christmas present. Ow! Who are you talking to? Hey guess where I found this? On floor. Watch this corner. Jonathan don't put in under there darling or cos she'll never get it out. Ooh and I'll smell of vinegar. Yeah, you'll stink of vinegar. Oh classic! Yeah. Yeah, gotcha now. Wait a minute, hold on I'll . Why don't you tidy your things up a little bit? Ah!. Well, don't lay down there then. Ah ah! Ooh. Well be careful. I went aah aah aah. It's probably cos you're leaning a funny way . I'm just leaning like aah aah. Go and get the man. ooh! Oh god I've . Aah! you twit. Oh, it hurts. No, well I don't think we'll be able to Aah! It hurts just round there because erm we ain't got Oh I'll have to put up with it. Has Mr bought anything see we ain't got Mr in for Sunday. Have you? Cor you should see Toys. They're massive. I know. It's got nursery just normal and the big one. he hasn't booked . Oh. Because he's booked it for Monday you see. No well you see Geoffrey's booked it out. And of course I went and, I I never handed in my book well of course I went and booked the other one out. So Geoffrey's gonna ring the bloke when he he's gonna try and get hold of Mr later on and ring him because we've got to let this other man know you know he can't have it. Yeah but we ain't got it here for Sunday you see. But he knows Did you see that nanny? Look nanny Well no I haven't but you see he's got it Monday. We usually have it Sunday to Monday . So Nanny. Geoff's gonna ring him and perhaps Watch this nanny. perhaps be home soon from wherever he's gone Come here . Yeah well he might not be home till late you see so we've got we've really got to wait so Geoff will probably ring this man when he come home. Alright then? Oh alright. Yeah Yeah . Okay then? Yeah bye. Shall I tidy up? I know. What? Oh it ain't getting very warm in here yet is it? We'll go and sit in the room soon Bloody cold. if it gets warmer in there. I meant to tell you I don't know about you but once I pick these Mills and Boone books up I can't stop reading the flipping things. No I'm like that. Right, let's tidy up a bit Jonathan I Well no I you don't, I tell you what, after reading these I swear I could write one myself. I swear I could. Yeah when I get my printer mum said I could write a book. I'm gonna write a book. I'm gonna write children's stories. Oh my god. When you was little I used to make up stories for him didn't I June? Yeah. And your mum used to say cor I wish I could write that down but you, but I could never remember . We never did did we? We never did. I do at school. We have I did one really good story. It was called Professor Plop and the Timemachine. You made it up? Yeah. We had to do a story when something unusual happened. Oh, and what did Professor Plop do? Professor Plop and the Timemachine, he made a timemachine, went to Egypt and instead of having Tuten Khamoun in headdress he had Tuten Khamoun in headphones. Oh. That looks a bit tidier don't it? You could get a video, video erm Don't keep doing it silly! He's hurt his shoulder. He Well he will do if he that. Well leaning on it like that it's putting pressure on it. Well the they said there was dead cats and dogs and things. Yeah the carcasses, and they was in some of them was just sort of like died there and that was it, it was just there, and it rotted away and there was all Yeah but how did QQ Two or three carcasses of animals in, in a plastic bag and it said they was just literally matted together. And the stench was out of this world. Well I should think it was full of maggots. That's what the bloke said. There was thousands he said, from the R S P C A, was thousands of maggots and there was a little kitten erm guinea pigs, hamsters and rabbit What all dead? No, these was alive and they got all them. But they just said all over the garden there was just dead carcasses of animals. And as they just died there it was just left there. And this woman neighbour, I mean she looked very respectable. Well how the hell did they find out about it then? Well it was something to do with the little boy. And they said something about this woman a neighbour said oh where the hell's Jimmy or something today? So she said oh he's alright. And then he just never went to school and they maintained they'd got a private . And so she said,thi this neighbour said well just how nosy can you get? You know she said I just said to her oh how's Jimmy sort of thing and she said he's alright. Yeah but was she a woman living on her own or had she got a husband? As far as I know she was living on her own with this little old boy. So apparently he'd never been to school? He had been to school originally because that's what she said he, then he didn't go to school and that's why she said you know, how is he and she said Yeah well I thought they said in one of the papers that he'd never been registered anywhere. That's right. Well that that was the whole thing. So he couldn't have gone to school could he? No he, it was a bit peculiar, I couldn't quite make nothing and they said something about they kept him away from other children or something. And the chap sort of the head of social services or local government officer, he said well in the nineteen nineties he said it is still possible, if you want to to keep your children away from school. You know it's it's as possible as it always has been. But when when they showed you in the house there was just like old cardboard boxes just sort of thrown in the corner and and just sort of paper carrier bags and polythene bags just sort of slung there. You've never seen nothing like it. I mean it looked like the house had been derelict for forty years. But they was living amongst it. Never seen nothing like it in me life. And the stench must have been terrible. Daddy. How long are your arms? In inches. How god knows. What what from my fingertips do you mean? Yeah. When you got your Six twelve Jonathan. You wanna come and feed your . fifteen two feet I should think. About two feet Well go and feed Benjy I should think. No I mean how many inches? Oh, about twenty four, twenty six. Something like that. Well you wouldn't have twenty four. Why? Why? Well he he's got the biggest arms longest Ah yeah well they perhaps mean from his wrist then. Yeah. Jon, I think mummy said would you Well do you know how many Eighteen inches then I should think. I don't know. His are twenty four. Yeah, six inches longer. Think I've got quite long arms for a short body. Twenty four inches! Yeah. I should think. Yeah. Hey go and feed that ginger thing. Here Jonathan. Whole load for it. Oh, that's got rid of him. Hello ging. Oh yeah. Make sure you properly . This is a hard Oh dear . lost that I'd have been in a pickle. Yeah. I've got me . Oh no! What you done? Oh I thought I'd lost me . I have to wear me Yeah. I have to wear that. Oh yeah? Cos I have to have them checked. There's an x-ray in there. Yeah? And then when we take x-rays that checks us to make sure that we're not getting any radiation you see. Too much radiation, yeah. I suppose you you're gonna have a certain amount . We shouldn't get any. Shouldn't you? No. If there's a reading the machine's not right. Yeah? Cos you see if you get radiation, too much radiation you get cancer don't you? Yeah, yeah quite. I see that Gary Linekar Yeah. his little boy, they're now They've definitely got c he's got leukaemia hasn't he? Has it? Yeah I think so. Did you hear erm Jameson on radio the other morning? No. Well he was talking, he burst into tears. He really? Oh he was so emotional about it. She is absolutely petrified of that cat. Yeah? Literally petrified. Excuse me. You got a cold? Yeah. Oh I'd have brought my for you. Yeah. It doesn't seem to be getting very warm in here to me. Central heating That weren't even on when I looked at it. Well it's only on about seventeen. There you are. That's why it ain't coming up. What does yours do , do you have yours on normally? Twenty . Twenty. What do you have your boiler on? Three and a half, four. Depends what er this time of year about three and a half and then four in the winter. Well mum only had hers on one the other week. That's why it was cold in there. Oh yeah well it ain't, that's a different sort of thing to ours. That's, that's completely different. Well they have theirs on one con continuously don't they? Yeah. See we don't have our heating on continuously. No I don't. Well theirs don't switch off does it? It just carries on. Different sort of thing. Well mine, I use, I've got Well I was cold down mum's last Sunday. I told her, I said to her it was Yeah. cold down there. Well I have mine on Mind you, I'd rather be like that. Yeah, than too hot. Cor. You can always put a sweater on can't you? Oh yeah. Mine I have on twenty and I have the boiler on well either two or three really. Yeah well I two is just really for heating the water for us. Oh no one is heating the water for me. One will heat my water. Yeah. Easy. I mean two makes my water boiling. Yeah. I get real hot water you know Yeah. because you see I only use it a tankful once a day when I have a bath in the morning have a bath at night as well. Yeah. Yeah well there's three of us have baths. There's three of you so, well I do a lot more washing than you don't I? Mm. And Jonathan lets the water out, and then fills it back up again. When he, when he's in the bath he'll let water out and then Jonathan . fills it up again with hot. What? Lets some out, fills it up again with hot. Don't keep banging. What's he do that for? Cos he's a pillock, that's why. No other word for it. And I say to him I don't know whether you realize that costs water costs money to heat that water. No. They don't realize do they? The on they only realize when they get bills of their own when they get older. That ain't serious the one who's got er Led Zeppelin coming to her house. Why? Well I can't see her living on five pound a week can you? She does at the moment. And her mother does all the all the washing for the when she us does hairdressing does all the washing, all them towels, hangs them out. Buys this, buys that. She uses her mother's electric. Telephone . Telephone. Has her money in her pocket. She's well don't she give her mother any Mind you Val said I can't help her out sort of financially cos she hasn't got it, but she said I can he , I said well you do help her out financially . Well yeah in that way. Quite. I said in that way. She said well I can't give her any money cos I haven't got any. Do you know a lot of them girls at work pay twenty five and thirty pound a week board? Yeah so I mean really the twenty five pound a week she's not paying her mother she could go to pay a mortgage. It's a hundred pound a month innit? Well Sue was Sue erm over the road was telling me erm the money her boys give is a hundred pound a month. What's that? Twenty five pound a week. Twenty five pound a week. So that's two hundred pound a month for two of them. She said she never touches that money. She banks it. Yeah? What, for the boys? No for herself! Two hundred pound a month! Well no, she gets fifteen off one and twenty off the other. That's still thirty five pound a week. Well that's thirty five pound a week. Yeah. That's a hundred and forty pound a month. That's a hundred and forty pound a And she banks that, she never touches that. So twelve months that's twelve And the way she talks you'd think she's destitute wouldn't you? Well that's why she don't need to go to work innit? Course it is. Well I couldn't live off my son like that. Too true. Well I'd rather give to if I had any children I'd have give to them. Mind you she is, let's fa she does help that youngest one out. She is helping him out cos he ain't got a job. Well yeah. So you know she she said he gets it back in the long run. What a useless fairy he was. Who? Oh she said he absolutely loves Tesco's. She said he's hoping they're gonna give him full employment. What's he got a temporary job then? Yeah. He loves Tesco's. I don't like shopping in there, let alone working in there.. God! Well that kid he Well I've done that job stacking shelves. That's a that and you, it was alright, and guess what he stacked the first day he was there? What? Turkey! Did he really? Yeah! She said he said er I couldn't believe it but she said he didn't mind cos it was all frozen. So she said weren't it marvellous. God. What, did he come from Turner's Turkeys then or something? Yeah, he Well worked with Geoff at Turner's Turkeys he lasted three days. Well Ken he actually worked with. He went to work with Ken and he he lasted three days. He didn't li Why was that? Well he didn't like working with the meat. Then he was off sick. And then he got a job in Tesco's and stacked turkeys ? Yeah. But he was completely er this old boy come down to me so he said that old boy's left. I said no he isn't I said, he's off sick. He said I think he's left. I said I know he hasn't left because I say his his wife works with my wife and he's off sick. He said well he's bloody useless. His wife? His mother! Sorry, I meant meant to say his mother, yeah I said his his mother I said. I didn't say his wife. Works with my wife. So he said well he's bloody useless. He said erm they sent him down there he said and they said go there, I forget his name this Duane. No I mean this old boy's name. Mark I think his name is. My god Duane! He's a right twit. Yeah. So he said they said to him well go with Mark and he'll show you the what to do. And all he'd gotta do was just put like two different bins, sizes of turkeys, and they just pick them out and there's this thing like a V shaped hook and they just sort of Hook it on . hook er I don't know what part they hook up there but they just hook it straight on this thing. And that's all they do all day long. Just pick them up Ooh what a boring job. and go like that. But it's if they're tall That's what I thought. if they're tall it's an easy job. But if they ain't tall and you've gotta reach every time, that's bloody hard work. Well I know that cos they're heavy old turkeys. And that's cold in there it's a terrible cold. Well wouldn't do very much well at that cos too short. tall enough? Well he was doing this old boy was doing nine to his one. So I said well how could you do nine to his one? He said well he used to go and he'd sort of look up at it, and he'd sort of think about how he was gonna put it in there he said then he'd be going like this then he'd sort of get hold of the other hand he said and he'd put it in like that and these other old boys are going like this with full hands you know? He said he's pathetic. So I said to his boss, like Ken's boss, Tony I said how are you getting on with your counting? Cor dear oh dear he said, I know I well know why he's down here doing that. So I said is he any good at it? He said I don't think that boy'd be any good at anything. So he said I can honestly say he said I think he's one of the worst I've ever had down there. So Ken said to him I can't understand what a boy like you's doing here Duane. He told Sue didn't he? Mm. So, but I, I think he thought Ken meant that he was like superior and he didn't ought to be doing that sort of job. You know, he ought to be doing better things. And Les said he'd be sitting here I'd say Duane ooh ooh should I be working he'd say . He said he was always on another planet. He said he was sort of just miles away, sit there he was you know looking out to space and I'd say Duane ooh should I be working he'd say. Funny though how people are like that. Oh dear. What was that thing come through from Les this morning? Just a bill for that I R N B thing, whatever. What is that? Do you think you'll get some tax back Geoff? I'm gonna get it all back, yeah. Erm what it is it's er How much will you get back then? Erm so far this year I've paid nearly, not quite twelve hundred quid. Oh so you might get some of that back? I should get all of it back. And then I shouldn't pay tax When should you get it though? I would think In the next few weeks? I well see, he's put the books in. Depending how quick they actually okay them erm I mean for two years, three years now they they've just gone straight through with no queries at all. That might be my luck this year that'll be the bloody year they give me a query. But if they go straight through, well then that'll go through to the Spalding tax office. Then that'll go through to Turners so I mean it could be like a fortnight after they've been okayed. Mm. Let's hope it does then. Well that'll be just right for thingme for christmas then, some more money. Yeah. But then if it goes on He wants you to ring him you know. Ring him Geoff because of Well I can ring him Monday can't I? Yeah. Well that's what I thought myself after you'd been there ring him then. Yeah. What you hoping then that the building society are gonna lend you the money so you can pay your bank draft off? Yeah you see what I want to do the arrears that I've got with him Got to pay off. and and the erm the bank loan the mortgage would then pay the mortgage I've got. The new mortgage would pay most of what I am in arrears with him you see so, which would keep him happy. In arrears with who? With the finance bloke. The one who want the money last week. So how much do you want to borrow then? Just enough to pay him off? Thirty at the end of the day I want a mortgage of about thirty five grand to pay the bank, pay him and also the mortgage that we've already got. Like that would then pay that off and have another mortgage. Restart sort of remortgage. Yeah. Cos you got what they said was Which isn't exceptional in this day and age anyway. She says erm How much were the repayments on that thing? Erm at the moment my mortgage is eighty four. What a month? Yeah. That's that's my own mortgage. The bank I pay cos there's two or three different things I have to pay to the bank which they insist if you have a development loan you have to have this and you have to have that and that comes The worst thing we ever did. Yeah but you see Yeah it comes to about four hundred and thirty five pound a month. What's that for? The the the well the equivalent of the overdraft. But you see you have an over you have the loan. But they then insist you take out this insurance so if you're off sick No not yet. that's automatically paid. So there wouldn't be so much going out actually? No. No. Well no because Geoff bought if Geoff pays his cars off he won't have to pay them off per month. No. No he's not gonna pay them off. He's paying what he ow got behind. No that's what I'm say I'll tell you in a minute when I've finished this. Oh I see. He's got behind Yeah but then he'll, we should be able to manage then to pay the mortgage and pay them and keep on the level peg. See what he what I pay at the moment is eighty four pound for the house. And it's about four hundred and about four hundred and twenty, four hundred and thirty pound to the bank. So I mean you you're talking five hundred pound aren't you? Yeah. Five hundred pound. Erm but that's not taking into consideration the arrears on the vehicles. But, the other way if they say yes you can have the mortgage, it works out about three hundred and sixty pound a month. Then there'll be nothing going to the bank and it also would pay off the arrears on on the vehicles. So I'm paying like a hundred and twenty pound a month less but it's Yeah and you wouldn't get all those bank charges. That's right. That's right. So we're paying Then of course all the money that you were paying, won't be paying in bank charges you'll be paying off.. your debt? Yeah. Yeah. That's right Yeah. Well blow me. Well you might as well try and The amount my ordinary bank charges forgetting any sort of bank loan, nothing like that at all, interest, nothing like that, just bank charges for standing orders to the finance company er are something like sixteen seventeen hundred pound a year. Well really you don't want that. You might as well go and pay them cash. Well that's what I've said. Well that's what he's said. He'll p , all he, all the money we get we'll just put into the building society and pay the bills from the building society. Pay it once a month. Geoff can go Will they allow you to do that? They're ha quite happy to do it once a month but like you said what they will not do erm obviously is to have a lot of sort of things like standing orders and that sort of thing. They don't wanna know about that. Well no well if you get an understanding with the people Yeah but you don't want to do standing orders then do you? Well Les was saying the only thing you've gotta be careful of like when you pay money into a bank when you're in business and you pay money into the bank and the bank then pay your standing orders er and everything's done through a bank, then the tax office sort of tend to think well fair enough you know, he's legit. But he said when you start paying money just into a building society and then lump sum this and lump sum that they tend to sort of then oh you know, what is actually going on here and they tend to start looking about a bit more. Well then when they start looking about a bit more, that is when it costs you because anything that Les has to get involved in, cos they go back to Les and say well why did he do this and why did you do that? Then it costs you. Well I should ima would imagine he'd just say well in this day and age the banks are just charging him so much he just finds Mummy can I watch T V please? this is an easier way. Oh yeah but I mean no I I don't mean in general, I mean specific things. They'll say well why did this cheque do so and so and why did this do so and so and like he said well when you're talking about forty eight pound an hour you don't want me poking round there trying to sort out the tax man Yeah but even so if you paid him forty eight pounds for an hour that's still Yeah but if you if you ain't as much as what the bank would charge you. Oh no but I mean it wouldn't be Yeah but Geoff if you keep a record when you took money in when you draw it out. We'll keep a complete record of it. Oh no no no you ain't you you ain't caught what I mean Yeah but then if he had to find anything then Yeah but, no but you think how many yeah but you think how many entries go in my book during the course of a normal year. So then if suddenly I have about a tenth of them entries. They're gonna want to know why. Exactly. There ain't the detail that there has been Yeah but then over the years. And that's what they wanna know. yeah but yeah but then on the other hand, let's face it our business Mum. has fluctuated. That's been on a real high and then gone down to a low to nothing. Yeah. So you don't get many names in that book anyway. And that is how it has been. Oh no, no I don't, no I don't mean no I don't mean I don't mean the business going here, I mean the things that I pay. I mean everything I have to detail down down to what payments I make and what costs I have everything is all detailed down isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. Well then if you're just paying that money into a building society and you're paying, obviously you can't write out as many cheques as what you would normally d do in a bank and have a standing order so therefore it's gotta be paid by cash. Yeah? Well that's that's when the tax man starts getting fishy and you've got to know Yeah but what Well I mean what difference does it, what difference does it make? Yeah but if you do it above board I can't see Well it's just that the cash is ah no, that's what I'm saying. But they, you gotta have I mean I could say oh I paid erm what shall I say erm off the top of my head, what can I think? What I pay. Cory oil? Mummy. Well that's a little bit different again. Yeah but I can't see how they can say anything as long as you've got a legitimate receipt for it. as long as you've got all the receipts and everything. I can't No well that's what I'm saying. Yeah but you see that's if it's cash every time, that's when they start wanting to be fishy about it. And they then say well right, cos every time an accountant does your books at the front of your, the actual like er the booklet what you get on your accounts it says at the front something like these accounts have erm have been audited but only erm we have taken the word of Mr that what he said is right. I mean they ain't sort of I mean what they could force you to do if they really, I mean they would never do that but what they could force you to do or Les to do would be to check with all those people who I've actually sort of made payments to, to make sure that I have. See that you have done. So I could write out a cheque saying paid Carl sixty pounds for doing my car. And I could actually give you, I mean I've all I've got is a cheque stub. There is nothing what actually says, only when that cheque goes back to the bank, there's nothing anywhere apart from the bank who says that cheque is actually made out to. I could put on that cheque's to Well how do you go on then? Well that's what I'm saying. They Les takes my word for it. So they in turn take Les's word for it. But if they wanted to Yeah but on the they could say right yeah but on the other hand Geoff if they took that attitude with everybody, nobody would Ah no well that's it. Well that's what they do, but he was saying, about once every fifteen years that's what they do. They'll wait till something goes a bit funny in your accounts then they'll say right, we want to do this. Now if you remember, the the first year Well why don't you just prewarn them before you're gonna do it and say look I'm no longer gonna use this bank I'm er Mummy when you come back in can I put Well no I mean no I mean it's just something they can do. Yeah alright Jonathan And they, you know Well I think that's bloody Well wh the first year we went in business we had that Jonathan. the very first year we was in business. And Les said I can't believe this he said, I he said if you'd have been in business ten years that I could understand but he said to do it your first Geoff. Yeah? Well what, perhaps you've had your turn then. there's Joe. For you. Oh yeah. Joe who?? No,. Oh! Oh yeah. Well I'd better go June. Oh no I wanted you to have tea. Alright then . No darling, I can't stay to tea cos I've left my windows open and poor old Vino ain't been fed. You've got two pi do you want one, do you like this picture of me Jonathan? got first which I'll get a different trophy from last year cos I've got the same trophy for two years. So I'll get a different freestyle trophy and I'll get, hopefully I should win my backstroke and I M tonight. Ah, what time have you gotta do that? About quarter to six tonight. What time do you finish? About quarter to ten? Cor that's late Ashley isn't it? Aren't you tired the next day? No. I am a bit morning but there you go. Go I'll have Yeah. Does Jody swim as well? Yeah. How did he get on? He, he home last in the fifty fly but he finished it for once. He's never ever finished it cos he gets his lungs get all tired out and he couldn't breathe once so he's decided to finish it and just finish, doesn't matter which place you come really. Get a new time then you're alright if you get a new time. Oh. I'll get a I got a new time for my er twenty five sprint which was sixteen forty four in one length. Oh. Come on in Jonathan. Hiya Don't be silly. Hey Jonathan. . I can get all of them. I got Oh you got one did you Jonathan? Yeah I got him. Out his own money. Yeah. He goes And who is he? Hulk Hogan. Hulk Hogan. And er he does the hug. What are you gonna do now then? Dunno. And then I'd like to get the Ultimate Warrior, I'd like to get Jake the Snake Jake the Snake. Roberts. Do you like them Ashley? Yo. Macho King and Hacksaw Jim. Hacksaw Jim. What's that treasurer? That one? Is he on there? Treasurer which one? You know that man treasury thingy said yesterday. man? Yeah, that's him. Oh he's Oh . Are you gonna sort yourself out then Jonathan? So I can He's rubbish. so I can get on. What are you gonna do, play in your bedroom or go outside or what? Dunno. I've got this What do you wanna do? Come on then cos I've got a lot to do mate. I dunno, I dunno. What can we do? Do as you like. You can play in your bedroom if you like. Okay shall we? Yeah. I had a fight last night. Who with? Him. Oh alright then. He wins. I say talk of the devil, I was just say Mrs thought you and her were gonna get together. Oh. Oh yeah. Well I didn't get what I wanted to get. I've been trying to find Sally to do your mac. We've got it in, Geoff's got it in the car we're gonna try again on the way home. Do what? Sally's doing my mac. Sue's, Sally's shortened Susan's mac. Oh yeah. We're early today. Who? We are. What do you have for dinner then? Oh we went and had a wimpy today. What have you done to your hair? It looks nice. Does it? Yeah. Nothing. I've, we was working out how long I've had this jumper. Well I'll tell you, when I just looking at it and thinking how nice it looked. Six years I've had that. Huh! Still looks as good as new though don't it? Well I haven't Can you do this please mummy? Well wait till we've washed up. Ooh. What do you say? Thank you. Jack gone back? You don't have to put it all in. Yeah he's, he's coming back then. You didn't pick that book up! No he said well he can just fill it in when he comes back. That won't take him long though Oh that's alright then. will it? Tell Juney what you told me I nearly Oh! choked over me dinner today. Nearly collapsed. What? Brian's got another son. Who? Brian. Who's that then? I don't know, he And his name's Alex. Name is Alex Well Bob was telling us yesterday cos David told I said to mum she needn't, mum didn't get none of the bleeding details. Well I Where the, what you mean erm Well this Charl the phone rang, Charlie answered it. He said he said this is Alex. And he said Alex who? He said Alex so What? What? Knock. I got one. Yeah, no I never Nobody got me one. We di have run out you see. They didn't have any more teabags left. And er he said so he said I'm Brian's boy. Oh bugger me . Brian's boy. And Charlie Brian's boy? well he ain't here at the moment he said. He said I'll tell him when he comes in and that's all I know. And David told Pattie that he that was his son that rung up. So I don't know who what woman he had or what. Evidently someone's knows don't they? Oh my I tell you he's got a lot of blooming skeletons in his cupboard ain't he? I That's it, I said I was just telling the children well what happens if anything happened to Brian. He he's got half of his to Simon, half of that house. And now he's got another son? He's kept that dark hasn't he? It's odd but no I said he's a bloody dark horse I know. him or Joey . He's as bad. Why? Well, he says one thing to Emmie and something else to me. And that time we saw him he said he definitely weren't going on that holiday. Next thing I know he's disappeared for four weeks into America. curtain. Getting in the window, that's what he's saying. Isn't he? Oh what the cat is? Cat behind the Hey? He weren't asleep he were just You what? I said in one breath he tells me he's not going to erm going on holiday with Linda. And then the next little breath he's off to America and you don't see him for four weeks. Yeah well, she's left him now hasn't she? Yeah I know! She's left him to sort herself out. Don't know why she's gotta sort herself out after being a fortnight away with her husband. Do you? Well she had Three weeks nearly a month Sue mate. They couldn't have sorted themselves out then I don't know what they can do. Well no. Oh! ain't got any more gossip to tell you. Ain't told you nothing? No, she was chatting this morning and that. Mm don't know what you're gonna have to drink . I'll have a look out there see what's out there in a minute. I'm going out there in a minute. drink, I won't . What's he still chewing? That meat. He shouldn't have put it all in his mouth at once. He's got such large It is tender innit Susan? It was lovely. Still takes a long time to chew. Well it would as you've got horrible teeth that's why. Ain't got no chompers yet. Nearly gone now. You ain't got your wisdom tooth in. When you get He won't get that till his seventeen. When you get your wisdom tooth in you'll be able to chomp. Chomp? Reminds you of that programme on the telly . That advert rather. How's Auntie Alice? Oh alright. Still the same I'm afraid to say. What, ain't they nice to her still? No that girl came through this morning miserable as sin she was. Did she speak to you? She had a bloody lip nearly down to her ankle. No! When she first come through to me, after she had a cup of tea and a fag she spo started to speak but that was it. Is that thing on? Yeah. Oh. Yeah so Did you tell mum? No, never mentioned it to . Mum, can I have some more Coke? I bought him Coke to take home but he won't want this he wants his Coke. Well if he wants. I don't bother me. If he drinks it now, today he won't have it tomorrow will he? That's what I said to him. Told him I've got a bottle of coke in It's up to you. my cupboard he oughta Oh find me your list cos I wanna know what to get you for your birthday. Well mum's got it erm I've got your christmas present. You oughta erm drink that bottle of coke I've got at home because that goes flat don't it? Does she know ? No, haven't told her. Hey look I've got an envelope in Geoff's book. Oh lovely. The money's fallen out but there was Do you think it'll be alright there? Yeah. Don't knock it off. There you are look. Oh dear. What you gotta say then father? Not a lot. Has this gotta stay on here? Well not if you're sitting on it. No it's only where the cats how we don't get hairs on the chair. I've had a phone call from Pam this morning. So has mum. Why what does she want with you for? She's only . I reckon I'm out of favour. No she was just asking about christmas presents. Well yeah that's what I, I told her you know er told her again because erm Well she said erm tell you. Thank you. Tell you what? What sort of things we like. Yeah well I told her this morning. Oh. You know cos er Well she must have rang Yeah well Did she ring you before me then? Or well she dad, she, he, dad, she, Bob was talking to dad and then I said to him can I let Pam have, cos I didn't want her going into Lynn and buying you them basket of Oh no. thingies. And, cos we erm talking Oh I tell you what else I like. talking to you, you said you don't mind those duck things and that, you'd rather have them than Yeah. Yeah I said I liked them I like all that sort of stuff. So I said well that she Juney do like them. I said only I said yes Jon pop your shoes off. yes I'm sure she would I said well if that's Yeah but yours ain't very clean. Ha! if that's what you wanna know. Couldn't get them clean. Ooh. Well what am I gonna buy, sort of thing Yeah but am I gonna buy her then? Well I bought her a vase but I said I've bought her a pair of them chunky earrings in. I've bought her erm a double candle lamp, you know, on a stand. Mm? That was quite nice. Cor that's a smelly cigarette. Oh sorry. Nine pound something. Nine pound thirty five. Oh no it's the match I think I can smell. Ben smokes. But er and I bought Bobby a shirt. Who? Ben . He does not. What? He brought a cigarette to school. You don't wanna smoke. Well he don't want, you don't want to do that. No. You don't wanna smoke Jonathan. It was a oh what do you call them? Erm A pretend one? a fake fag. They're called. Yeah but you don't wanna get in the habit of holding something in your hand like . You don't wanna smoke Jonathan cos you'll never get And they really look like it and when you go a load of ash comes out of the end of it. But it's really flour. Or sniff glue or sniff anything out of tins. What anybody . No. Oh. What about jam? I could sniff jam. No. You sniff nothing. Oh! Cut your nose off if you start that lark. Sniff nuffink. No, there was a programme on there, on that erm Casualty a bloke died with that. What, sniffing glue? Sniffing glue. Yeah I know they do . Yeah well cos that does something to your lungs don't it? Blocks them up. selling that yesterday Sue Yeah, get if I'd have known, I'd have gone down there. Well if I'd known I'd gone down there. Where was that? It's round the back there. Down the back, if you Oh I see that when I come Does she do it all the time then or was it just one-off? Well that just come round the door Susan. Mm. Nanny. Yeah? You know I wanted that W W F man? W W F man? Mm. Tell nanny what that means cos I asked you yesterday. Well when's the late night shopping in Wisbech then? World Wrestling Federation. . Eh? You know I wanted that little man? Yeah. Called Hulk Hogan. Da! Mm. He bought himself How much was that? Four pound fo four pound thirty. He wants some more of them. For christmas. Who bought that for you then? So if Pam don't, wants to know what to buy him, he wants some of them. Where's the thing gone? The paper? I put it down so It's on the table. Oh. I've crossed off the ones that I want. Yeah. Oh. Cos if Pam don't know what to buy him she could buy him one of them or two of them or whatever she I want a ring. I don't think she'll buy you three. No a ring. Do you want this late night shopping thing mum? No, I left it in case you Oh yeah I will take it. That's Wisbech though innit? Cos we won't go to late night shopping. You won't go late night shopping? Oh that's lovely up there late night shopping. Dad don't like going in the evening. Where you been this morning then? Who dad? Nowhere. Oh. Where was you I was yesterday. where was you then when I saw you going out in your car? He went to get some petrol cos we'd run out. Oh. Cor he pipped and nearly made me ju You ain't given me any tickets lately. There's some in the car. He pipped me mum and made me jump out of my bloody skin. Cos petrol's gone down hasn't it? Petrol's gone down a bit. Don't see why. Well that was said last week it was going up. Well it's gone down this week. Gone down four four and a half pence a gallon. Has it really? Up yours up your one in the village. Oh. Do you definitely wanna go Mm. shopping Saturday? If it's alright then I'll come home cos Mr said to me last night, oh you want to stay here the night. I said well I can't. Cos I said I wanna go home and pick June up in the morning. Cos there's no way you can get up to town is there? No. No. Cos I said she ain't got a car. Said not, not only that I said we don't have anywhere to park her car that's why I said I'm after your car park. Cos erm Richard's gonna pick him up from the meal. Mm I thought you weren't staying the night though? Well I'm not. Well he didn't know that Clare was staying. I said well you he said I'd already told you could he said well I can't go back on it. I said well, don't matter I said, don't to worry about it. I said I'm not worried about it. I said anyway I want I want to get home to June in the morning I said cos me and June are going shopping. Well I can, if he lets me have his space we don't have to worry too much about the time and go about er just after nine or something. Yeah alright. Don't wanna be too late though cos . Well I'm up anyway, you know that. Well I shall probably What time did you get up this morning? Well I was awake at erm about twenty past seven. But I didn't get up, I laid in bed and read a book till nine o'clock. I read one of those books last night. Do you see Jaws? Yeah. Yeah! It's rubbish. Weren't that unreal? You know his mouth all went crinkly crrkkkk I've never seen a jaw No that was terrible. When he opened it split a bit down there. Did you see it mum? Yeah but I missed the flipping bit how he killed it. How does he kill it? I only saw the erm Command Performance. They just rammed the boat into it. We saw the Command Performance. Oh that was good. That's the best one I've ever seen. And the and then and you know it had broke off, so it had a load of spokes on and just went straight through him. And er Les Dawson had them in bloody fits. He really did. He, what did he say? I saw this cat coming down the road Backwards? back no he said and it was dad'd tell you more he he said Only got one eye. only got one eye. He said when I looked at it was coming backwards. Walking backwards! Walking backwards. Oh she can't tell a joke save her conkers. Oh knickers! And but it was really good there was all the, the, the Cats programme and Saigon and that Oh yeah? what's his name? Yeah we we were trying to convince dad, you know that song Memories? Memories da Yes? We said that come from the film Cats and he reckoned the copy of Memories he's got is sung by who ? And not Perry Como. Perry Como. I said it ain't the same blooming tune . Well of course that ain't. Well. I said he's he's thinking of Cos I kept singing it this morning . I've got it on me blooming mind, you know when you keep singing it? Yeah. And she sung that beautif You can get the music from Cats though. I've got it on tape . She sung that beautiful. Cos mum likes it. I said you can get that tape can't you? Yeah. And that Saigon thing where he sings to her, that girl. That was on Mm. that bit of that. And there was a this time You'll break it. there was a a load of Russian young boys playing those oh bugger they were good. Did you see The Generation Game? Ah. Yeah. I watched that last night Them packets what they had to do. Yeah! I watched that for a cha , we watched that for a change last night cos we watch Blind Date. Do you watch that every week? They couldn't do the splits. I think I like that better than Mm. I'm getting fed up with Blind Date. Is it the fourteenth of December you go to that party? Well I don't know whether I think she's having it still. Oh. Why? Why? Well she's suddenly changed the . Well I dunno. Her birthday's on a Sunday this year. Because that's funny, when we, you know we went to that the other week and that was erm she went DSA to have and to hold. They're meant to hold on to it you know so she don't need it so often. And he said that he thinks every DSA she always has a day off on her birthday, this man did. What do you say, it's no good to me? I said it's no good to me. And he looked at me and he said why? I said cos mine's on a Sunday . He said well you're getting the day off. I said yeah but it ain't quite the same is it? I got some nice towels from erm Auntie Alice's catalogue. didn't I mum? You did? Just plain green ones. Oh. Mum. I wanna go to sleep. He oughta take his shoes off cos they're mucky. They're not mucky! I'd do them properly. Less I shan't buy you another pair. They're clean I'll have you know, look how shiny they are. I'm talking about the soles. They're not dirty. Oh. Well he oughta take them off anyway. He'll have sore feet. Hot feet. Hot feet, yeah. Stay still then, here you are. Ow! Whose jeans he got on? His. What was Pam on about yesterday then? Looks like a pair of yours. Father. Eh? What was Pam on about? Nothing really. Only trouble with her ex husband's wife. Why? Oh dear what's happened there? I dunno. Happen mum could tell you more cos I weren't bloody interested in that. Cos she went in the shop and Well she abuses the woman. No the woman wasn't in the shop you see and young girl another girl in there Julie and that and she was running on to Pam. And er she said Julie married your husband so er all Pam said was yes she said and he's welcome to her. Well. Hello. Get back! And she Can't ? Oh no! I've got the key. Oh dear June give him the paying in book. Then he can sort that out. I think ain't I got it? No you ain't got the new one cos I've got it. The old one's Oh. in the drawer. The old one I've given him Oh well I, I didn't realize you'd had a new one. Yeah cos I was Oh. thinking about that. All the time we keep losing them little stubs you wanna leave the gr the whole complete thing on then we won't lose them. Yeah. Where is the new one? Oh here look, and I got you an envelope to put it in. Oh alright mate. Thankyou. Cos I'm fed up of losing your money Money out yeah . That's dripping out in my handbag. Oh wait a minute. Erm them Oh ? Quarter to two Geoff. You've got time. Twenty to two. Alright mate Quarter to two, the time I've been waiting for the battery to run down . Now which one's ours? One's Pete's and one's ours. You get a Can't I take them both? Take them both. I should imagine it's the shiny one but I don't . Why didn't you put Pete's on a ain't you got a hook for ? I had it on a little bit of elastic band and I've, I've lost it. No, think that's it. Oh I'll take them both anyway cos I think that's yeah I I'll leave ours in the garage . Ours goes long short See you a bit later. short Yeah okay then. See ya. Geoff. Batteries again. What batteries? For that. Yeah, what about it? That's flicking. Yeah, you want some more then. Yeah? Oh no they're not, them batteries ain't no good. Well what is it June? What's that? Well they lasted. It's a tape recorder. Oh. They lasted alright. Well you better bring me two back just in case. Where are they then? Just in the kitchen drawer, you know where I keep my club things? Well that's flickering now. Yeah, it's flickering now. What the middle one you mean? I should turn it off. Where I keep all my club things at the end there where the medicine thing is. Oh I know yeah. Okay. The medical the medical drawer. Righto then. See you later. Yeah. I should turn that off then. Yeah well it don't matter. Th that should carry on but them, them batteries isn't any good. Do you mind if I watch Eastenders at two cos I ain't seen it. Oh! I only wanna see the first bit. The second bit I've seen but I need to see the first bit. You can watch what you like. Well it ain't on yet for another twenty minutes when it's on can you? Well no. You what? She said you can't talk when it's on. Well you can. Not gonna have it on that blooming loud. You can have it on if you want to. I've seen it. Well I ain't seen it. Cos I went to the hospital meeting didn't I? Ain't losing much Beano's definitely gotta go to the V E T Jonathan. he's frightened. Ah. He don't like it. Doesn't he like the vet? No. What, do you say V E T ? She said you're going to the V E T's. That's like that song where they say me and my wee scabby dog innit ? Haven't you ever heard it? No. Oh. No don't do that Jonathan. . Oh so I was telling you erm Oh yeah. And so Pam just said to her yeah she said he is married to my ex she is married to my ex husband but she said she's bloody welcome to him. You know? And what these girls must have said she don't know. And Bobby picked up the phone when the phone rang and it was her and she sai erm Bob said yes? And he spoke to her, said hello so she said oh hello Bob she said, is Pam there? And of course Bob went and got Pam. Cor she was right abusive to Pam. She told Pam to keep out the shop. It ain't her bloody shop anyway. Yeah but you do, you only Yeah but I don't know you see, so Well now would them girl would them girls say, she must have said more than that mother. You know what she's like. So erm er she said she was quite rude she said and I rang back she said, I was gonna tell her and she stamped the phone down. She said I rang back and her husband answered it. He said eff effing well get off the phone so Well she does cause a lot of Well I mean really I mean Well why the hell does she That's what Vi said her mother he said I mean really and truly mum with all these shops that are about, why has she gotta go in that one? She sai and Bobby said oh he said if they Which shop does she work in? McKay's Next to Bewise innit in town. Yeah but why Well I wouldn't have thought she'd have gone in a shop like that anyway cos there's some more expensive stuff in there. No, there's some good stuff in there cheap. It's fairly cheap in there. And what I've seen what she's had. Yeah but But anyway erm Bobby said I don't know why you worry about it, he said. Let, I said well the best thing ju to do erm er Pam I said is just to ignore them I said and ignoring them makes it you know? See I know why cos you see her husband he don't and cos when her husband come for the kids Bob was there and he said I ain't bloody well going out to them. He just was in there doing something the children went out and he said I said to him good morning, he said good morning. He said and I just don't take no notice of him. But you see she erm Julie's a bit upset over things cos she said that er they've gotta sell the house and they've gotta sell the car. Cos he's in a bit of problems I suppose. Although he's got a good job so Pam said I don't know why he's got in that problem. But I said well your best thing to do Pam I said is forget it. I said he's not your husband any more. I said and avoid her as much as possible I said if you both clash together. I said but she can't keep you out the shop anyway. So she said I've a good mind to write to the manager so Bobby said you wanna leave well alone, forget he said. Well no be because the manager perhaps has heard Would give her the sack. how she speaks no he, he might ban her from the shop if she, if she keeps Well you know she's called her all sorts of things in front of people. Well you don't do that. Oh yeah, yeah. And Bobby didn't wanna know. He said I just speak to him he said when I see him and they're nice to me and I'm nice to them. Yeah but the whole point is He said he only wants to put himself I mean she's always saying she's always saying how you know she, oh my kids this, my kids that. Well if that woman loses her job through what Pam has said she's not gonna be very nice to her children is she? Mm. He makes her he makes her oh he said to the children you can go in the house with your dirty boots. So Bobby said they said oh dad said we can come in the house. Bob said you you do what we tell you not what he tells you. You take your bo boots off outside if they're muddy. You don't bring it in the house. And that Stephanie cos she don't she don't like him she never ha well she don't know much about him do she? She was only four weeks old when he left. Yeah? So she said oh he's a nuisance she say. He makes me sweep up after I've had me tea. What, the two er eldest have to wash up and she has to sweep up round the table . And he's telling them they can go in Pam's house Yeah. with dirty boots on? That's what Bobby said. They don't like going really do they? No . He said specially the boy, he's getting he said he, the boy's getting shown now well she said herself that he don't like me to hear me arguing and swearing. Well I should think not. He said to her oh forget it mother he said keep on. And Bobby said he's getting that age where he don't like to hear it. But he said I think Well Paul don't like never used to like it. No, he said I think before long he'll just you know, not go there. And the little'un couldn't care less but the middle one thinks a lot of her dad. She's like him. And Pam told us yesterday that she can't kiss her on the lips. Kiss who? Her little girl. . She said when she comes to kiss me good goodnight I let her kiss here but she said I can't have her cuddling me or she said I think of him all the time. Cos she's so much like him. Well that ain't her fault. Well it ain't the child's fault. No. How cruel! She said and Bobby says she don't he said I was laying on the floor the other night and she came down beside with me and put her arm round me as we were laying there he said I'll never do anything he said cos if you started playing about with her she'll, you know childlike and and he said she wouldn't erm show her affection any more. He said you've got to take that child gradually that one. But he said the other one's a cheeky little bugger he said really. He said and I'd soon tell her off. He said but I sit at night he said when she's gone to work and he said and help them with their drawings and things they're doing. He said they ain't no bother really. Oh it's Pam that makes them the bother, not anybody else. He said they are a nuisance sometimes keep coming in and out for stuff but he said that's childlike. Mm. Well it is really. But he likes that little one. He likes that little well he likes them all I think. Really, in his way. I don't like the little one. You what Jonathan? I don't like the little one. She wanted to kiss you didn't she? Mm? Yeah. I don't like her. Stephanie. You don't like her? Not the little one. Oh. She's a pest. He didn't want her to kiss him. She wants to keep kissing him and he don't like it. When she come round the middle girl she brought a friend with her and Ashley was with us so we ran down the dyke They ran after them. And they wouldn't go across the dyke. Oh has what's his name got that any more? Merlin. No he's not in the field, is he Jonathan? Who've you got in the field now then? Nobody. Why's he taken them out all again for then? Well he likes to, I don't know whether nobody's cleared up the field, that looks a mess. Jonathan might do it and earn him Cor! Blithering heck. earn himself two pound. You know what you want a do, get some bags and bag that stuff up and sell that on the side of the road fifty p a bag. Ugh! You'd get money. You wouldn't. People buy it for their gardens honestly. Ugh! Don't they June? Horse manure. Yeah. They do. So if you bagged it up and put for sale on it, fifty pence. You could earn a lot of money. You've only got to bag it up and put it on the side of the road. Fifty p a bag! Ugh. Well, you want to earn pocket money he's gotta do these things ain't he mum? Yeah. I bet you wouldn't get many people wanting it though. I bet you would. You ask nanny years ago, what did they used to nanny? Fetch it on the road. Yeah, with their buckets and spades. Bucket and spade, they wanted that for their gardens. Poo! To put round the roses. When the cart and horses used to come round. Horse and carts. Aah! I thought Liz Taylor was dead? She ain't. Liz Taylor! Cor! She's married for the eighth time isn't she? When she's seen Neighbours we'll put it on. Is that First Blood? No it's the Rambo Two. Oh good I haven't seen Two. I've seen One and Three but I haven't seen Two. No, I haven't seen two. Three's good. You've seen Three. Well I'll just see the first part of Eastenders if I can cos I've seen the second part. Have you seen Rambo Three granddad? Sorry? Have you seen Rambo Three? Yeah. Yeah. It's good i have you seen Robocop Two? What you put that there for? You can move it if you want to. Have you seen Robocop Two? Did you don't you think that was sad? Robocop Two where they chopped Simon's legs off? Is he drinking his pop already? yeah he That made me feel sad. I liked the end bit. aaaeeeyaaa . wouldn't have it. He elbow drops it, he goes beeeee ppp . What? What? Bit early for a cup of tea yet. It ain't tea yet. Well if you want one, have one. Don't let us stop you. You oughta seen Auntie Alices's Winnie this morning. Winnie? Winston his name is. Aah! I heard her say to him mum Auntie Alice this morning, she love her cat so I heard her say to him come on then, let's see what mummy's got for you this morning. She said he had a half a pound of raw liver yesterday mum. Ooh dear. She puts it through the mincer for him and he have it raw. Blimey he must have been sick. Well he lo well he eats eats raw meat. He won't eat cooked meat, her cat won't. Oh. Mummy, why can't we have Sky ? Why, what's on Sky? The movie channel Sky sport a christmas channel now I think. Er Sky One Sky movies and Sky news. The news dad'd like. Oh. Cos it's on it's cheap in here. Oh. I see. It's satellite dish and remote control steereo receiver. Stereo not steereo.. I call it steerio. Two hundred pound. Well where you gonna think your mum's gonna get two hundred pounds pay on the Sky telly? God it's you have to rent, you have to pay extra rental on that. You have to pay so much a week I'm surprised father ain't had it. No, don't want that Juney. Ooh easier to get a video. See most of them'll come on video anyway. Well I don't think it's worth it actually. No What's that? they've had Turtles on there before. Juney says she's surprised you ain't had Sky. Jonathan do no. No. We don't look at telly. Dad looks more at videos. Hey, when have you been treating yourself to that one then? That's Bobby's. Bob lent it to him. Oh. Bobby bought it yesterday and lent it to dad cos we bought we bought ourself, well Rob, dad did, I don't look at them erm they're too violent for me but dad bought it in Superkey only five ninety nine. In Superkey. And er He keeps buying all these things. People could buy them. He bought Three and Bobby, Bobby hadn't got Three. Pam bought him is that Two? Yeah. She bought him Two so we was gonna lend Bobby our Three so he said well I won't look at Two. You have our Two and yo I'll borrow your Three. Oh. So dad's gotta take that back to him next week and we get our one back. Oh I see. They're only five ninety nine. So you've got One Two and Three between you,. Well yeah. So that one, the Three one is about the Afghan war. It's a bit ooh Yeah I've seen it. Cor yeah Yeah it is. is it violent. Have you seen it? Mm. Julian Julian had it. There were these big helicopters Oh. them videos in in erm Superkey. We did buy it once before. And when we brought it home it wouldn't go. And we hadn't got the receipt but she changed it. We bought another one then. You saw that one didn't you? You're lucky because I'll tell you for why, you can't change a video if you buy . No, but she's she'd, we told her er No because they're in a plastic cover aren't they? Yeah but you still can't No cos they think you've played them. They think you've copied them you see. Well I explained to her and I said we bou took it home I said and it it won't go I said, but unfortunately we have you know throw the the ticket away. So she said well I'll change it she said because I tell you why, we send them back every, every so long, often. About every two months we send all the lot back and renew them. Oh. So she changed it and she said but you'll have to have another one. So we had another one. But you saw that one weren't you? Yeah I'd seen that one before. What was it? And er Erm that was good but there was a twi you really like There's a twist to it, it there's a twist to it. You have gotta sit and watch that quietly that one. Yeah. Which one's that? What was it called mum? Erm Well dad'll tell you. Anyway, that's a good film but you've gotta you've gotta watch it because there's a twist in the film. It's about a Russian spy yeah? Spy yeah. Oh. But it's a good film. That's not it's got a little bit of erm Violence in it. violence in it but nothing much. Jonathan. Don't keep doing that. Yeah Yeah no don't . I'll make you a cup of tea in a minute. Yeah alright. Erm Cos that picks it up. are you gonna do er er erm do business before Geoff comes back? Yeah I'll do them later on but I was gonna watch Eastenders. Whatever does Geoff Geoff ain't bothered if she does your . Yeah but she does a bit out here and I'm bit, feel a bit embarrassed when him and Well get your Oh I shouldn't worry about it. I do it. June. I wanna watch Eastenders now, do you mind? Take that then, cos that's the cats. No, suppose not. Well that's flashing anyway. He, does he remind you of Tarzan look? Tarzan type. There was a a champion in the, in the weekend paper charging three hundred pound a a time for sex. Yeah? Mother! I don't think you ought to say that. . . No that's alright. You want to hear it. And you oughta seen his body. He was absolutely handsome. Yeah? And people were going mate. Oh yeah. How much? for three hundred pound, weren't it dad? Mm silly git. Cor he had a lovely physique, cor. I like them Chippendales, I think they're nice. He's better than them even. Oh he can't be Wonder why they're called Chippendales? That's the name they've called theirselves. Circus innit? Well I suppose Chippendales is er antique furniture innit? They're Americans aren't they? They're strippers you know. Strippers. They're se They're male strippers. they're sexy male strippers. They're they're American aren't they? Would you like to see them Sue? Yeah but, do you know what, they have female bodyguards. Yeah? Yeah well cos you see they have to, most of their fans are women so they have to have female bodyguards cos the males are a bit rough with them but the women are really tough who Yeah? bodyguards, their bodyguards, yeah. Yeah I would. Yeah they're American aren't they? Are they? Dunno. Oh yeah, yeah. Cor Sue if ever you get any tickets to see them, we'd better go and see them. I'd like to see them. Where's cat? Gone out has he? Big cat's still in the window I think. He's still up there look. Well he's been there a long while. He's a bit like erm what's that erm tut the one that er Castle Greyskull, what's, what's the Skeletor? Yeah, the one Master of the Universe one, what was his name? Who did? He-man. Well he looks like He-man. Yeah. Does a bit. I reckon that was one of the then. Ooh ladder June. Cor blimey, I put up another spell. I couldn't go up there. Cor she was Did you did you do any more ? No, she was I couldn't reach . That was bending and twisting all over. I'll perhaps get up there next Sunday and do it. Yeah. That won't stand my weight. If it's a nice day I'll go up. Yeah well I'm lighter than you aren't I? Yeah. Coo that was creaking and twisting I thought ah Do you know mum we're do Geoff's got he's done all down the sides, all round the back so he's he's threequarters of the way I ain't done round the back. Yeah but you've done all round the kitchen bit haven't you? Oh yeah, the garage, yeah. And all that Yeah. and he's now going up the point of the house but he can't get no further. No. I've got a yard from I'm going up that side and I'm a yard from the point Oh! and I can't get no higher. So I've gotta go and do that point bit. Cos I got the Brian's ladder, like an extended ladder Yeah. but he said you know when you're start extending them any more than it is Yeah. Not very safe. they get a bit they start to whip like that. Yeah. And I ain't no good at ladders at the best of times. So I said well if I go up me being light, I'll go up and he holds the ladder Yeah. Why don't I go up? I'm . He was saying if you had a three tier extending ladder then the they sort of, their more rigid. Because you know it gets Well he went on it. He did it. Yeah but I said Geoff said well he what did he use? I said well that I said but he's a lot taller than you Geoff He's he's taller than me isn't he? isn't he? Yeah. He's got the height to do it. Is he fat or thin? He's a big old boy. Big. Is he? Oh I Yeah. Yeah about Bobby's stomach around isn't he? I don't think I've ever seen him. What Brian? No. He's quite big, Brian is isn't he? Yeah. I've never seen Brian. Did you tell talking about Brian, did you tell Geoff You can see he's got a bloody wig though Geoff, can't you? Ooh can't you just. Did you tell Geoff about our Brian? Specially when he sweats. you mean? Oh no. No I haven't told him. Yeah. No, what mate? Do you mean, do you mean Sue you tell him cos you know how the story goes. Well mum told me. We were sitting there and she was telling me about Brian . She said his son rang up and I said what, what's his name? Steven. Simon. Simon. She said no, Alex. I said Alex He's got another one. Alex who? So she said he's got another one apparently he rung Charlie the other night and said this is Alex, can I speak to Brian. He said yeah Alex who? He said Alex , Brian's son. So I think So Char and Charlie said he ain't here. Charlie must have Charlie must have gone aah aah aah . And he didn't know about it? No! No. No. Nobody did. Nobody did, did they? Geoff. Brian did. Brian did. Though we don't know who the woman is. Bugger me he's been busy. Been doing alright. I wonder who the ? Yeah but he did go out with a girl there for a while didn't he? In London. Well he's been married twice wasn't he? He was Has he? Oh yeah. Brian has, yeah. He he divorced his second wife cos she thought more of anim animals. But I think it was because er she couldn't have children you see? Yeah? That's why he packed up. Well he's got enough of his own anyway by the sound of it. He used to live at Picken Pickerham didn't he? Somewhere outside sort of Swaffham. Pick Pickering something, yeah. They reckon she was North oh yeah North and South Pickenham. yeah that's where yeah. Yeah. Yeah that's where he used to live, in a bungalow there somewhere. Yeah I know it. That's where Barbara used to live, North Pickenham. What is it Jonathan, what are you doing? Mm. So you ask. What is it Jonathan? play game. What's he got mum? I don't know. This. Oh, for the cat Tiddy tiddy. That big one big'un won't come down No don't No, don't rile him up boy for god's sake. He's he's a bit of a problem. No he don't like children Jonathan. He's frightened. Doesn't he like fooling about? He keeps getting in No. nanny's sink. No erm Fuji Juji she'll play with you, look. And she's asleep. Where is she? She's asleep. Get your cards and play with them. We ain't got some. There's some er in the drawer. Pick them They ain't all in there. They've all gotta sorted out sort them out. Yeah so it sounds as, he's got a lot of skeletons in his cupboard. Yeah. Yes. Then he had the cheek to tell me Joey erm Joey had a lot of skeletons in his. I thought well I dunno who's got the worst out of them two . Yeah. No neither do I. At least I don't think Joey's got any children. I think we could write a book about our family, what goes on with someone ha going out with someone else and blimey! I feel a bit boring compared to everybody else . So do I. Yeah. Bugger me, they've had some fun. Haven't they just . Sounds like it. Yeah well they all seem to be bloody happy though don't they? The tragedy of it is though he's paying for it now with his kidney problems. Yeah. Well that ain't got nothing to do with his kidney problems. You don't know what disease he picked up You don't know what he's what Well he didn't. You know what caused his kidney problem in the first place. He's always had high blood pressure and never had it treated. Oh. And what it does, it eventually it breaks down your kidneys. Oh. What, he knew he had it? No he didn't know he had high blood pressure. And it wasn't just it was by pure coincidence, I mean his kidneys would have stopped anyway, that bloke thumped him in the pub. Yeah? Accid you know, came up behind him and thought he Yeah. mistook him for somebody else and thumped him and knocked Yeah. nearly knocked him unconscious. And he had, kept getting bad, and he'd had bad heads oh for years but he just thought that was, he was one of them people that got bad heads. And he went to the doctor and the doctor said well you haven't got anything wrong with your skull but I'll take your blood pressure. He took his blood pressure and he said well this is astronomically high. He said erm I shall ha I'll have to send you up the hospital and you'll have to have a you know Scan, didn't he? He had a scan. scan and that. So he went up and had a scan and they s they checked it and of course when they checked the scan they noticed that his kid one of his kidneys hadn't been functioning for a long time. One of them was useless. Mm. And they said that that erm he'd got to erm what did he say? He'd gotta have these tests for this other kidney. Yeah. Erm when they tested it they said that one was near to failure anyway and that was what was, been causing his bad heads and it was just by pure coincidence that bloke hitting him, that brought it to light. Yeah. Otherwise he was, kidneys he would have just collapsed. Yeah but he ain't rejected this kidney he's had has he? Well he's on steroids. He's having a lot of problems isn't he? He's on steroids. He he can't, never come off steroids. Is he still fat? Cor he looks Well he's saying that that bloke mistook him for somebody else then? Is that what Yeah. Well he didn't. He didn't I can assure you I kn he knew exactly who he was. Oh. Yeah that that chap at the You see what happened was he nearly knocked his kids over. He cut him up or something didn't he? He come flying round that bend near mums and nearly his kids were on the side of the road and he come through there Oh. and he knew who it was see cos he goes up the pub same as he does. And th obviously there aren't that many American cars around. So he was waiting for him? And that's why he went to the toilet without Yeah but apparently apparently that weren't hi his Am that was his American car that nearly hit them but th Brian had sold that to a bloke down in down your mum's road. Yeah? Down your road. That's why he thought it was Brian. Oh . Eh? A Alan ? Yeah that was him! Yeah? That weren't Brian. Cos Brian had sold the car to him. Yeah? Because he said the bloke Yeah. thought that was him in the car but it wasn't cos Oh I know what you mean yeah. he'd got the silver one hadn't he, then? Oh. He sold the blue one Yeah? He said, yeah the blue one that's right he's still got it the bloke has, yeah. Yeah well that was that was him. Was it? That wasn't Brian . Pity he didn't hit him cos he's a big man. Well cos he went to po he thumped Brian. Didn't even look at him, thumped him from behind you see? Hit him Yeah. straight in the back. Yeah. Course he fell and hit his head on the washbasin. Yeah? It's surprising thumping him in the back didn't kill him with the kidney failure innit? Mm yeah. Well I suppose that's what made him go unconscious really. Yeah. Did they have the ambulance and that? Well no he went out but they somebody ran in there and h well B Brian and I think Pat and David were having a drink with him and I think they suddenly thought well he's been in there a long time. Yeah. So Pat said go and see what he's doing. And they found him on the floor? Yeah. Well he was on the floor weren't he? Ju just about coming round. easily have been But that that bloke, that bloke he'll thump anybody won't he Geoff? Oh yeah,. Was it was it? Yeah. Mm. He used to carry on with that I always call him Else. Yeah. carry on with that girl up the road there didn't he? Who, Jasmine ? Yeah. Yeah. She comes to the dentist she does. What's she like now? Exactly the same. Cor! What a fire engine. Is she married? Yeah. But she's got a good job. Very clever girl. Very bright her. Believe it or not. Do you think that, that one was better than the other one, number Three? Yeah that was a good one, number Two weren't it? I like number Three better. Although I didn't watch that one, it's so innit? I shall have to watch number Three cos I ain't seen number Three. That's the one I haven't seen. I've seen that one. You have? What? Number Two. I don't think he made any more after Three. He went into something else didn't he? I said to June yeah. Yeah. I said to June that's gonna be a bloody great house opposite us. Yeah so she said. Yeah I was telling mum. me! When I see it! I said we could get get our house inside it. Cor and the rest. Twice. Don't want a big house I bet the house itself is as big as . Perhaps they've got something else in mind Geoff. Perhaps they're gonna have guests or something. No. He just says I mean he was saying to June Well believe it or not that tells you how people are lucky. They've bui got out a new what is it? Roof tile. A new roof tile. And this firm he thinks because he's gonna have his roof done with these roof tiles, these new type they're gonna give him them! They're looking for one sort of nice house to sort of show them more or less. It's in the To show them. the Ideal Homes Exhibition this year. And they're looking for a nice house to put them on. And he's gonna get his house re-roo They're gonna give them to him. all roofed for nothing. Cor, lovely. Cor. I said my god! Cor! Money goes to money. What is he giving up the farm then? No. Well no. No? No, what he was saying was see he sold his house for two hundred and thirty thousand I think he said. Cor. But what he said was that erm the house wanted a lot of money spending on it and he couldn't afford to do it. Don't put that on there Jonathan. It don't play. And the farm has, last three years has lost a lot of money and er they had one farm at Colkirk which they've now sold and er they just sort of decided they wanted to make the, they had a big barn, a big white barn which was a real old barn and he wanted to make that into a house. And er the planning people said no, we won't let you do that but you can knock the barn down And build and build a house on there. But the stupid thing is it ain't where the barn was is it? No, it's further round Further over. So he's now knocked the barn down and he's erm gonna have this new house built and So he could have left the barn where it was? Well that's right. Yeah. Mind you I suppose it would have been close to the house. Yeah, yah. So that's now give him more garden space sort of thing. But he said they've just I mean this year the whole orchard. That And he's gonna all them complete orchard opposite us they never picked one, that's a plum orchard and they ne never picked one single plum. Oh yeah because you got a lot didn't you? They did. Cos they, they didn't Jonathan cos he said we can't sell them. Yeah but he never picked an we did. Nobody wants them. We picked them. And that's why he said you can go and pick as many plums as you like cos we just haven't He never sold any of them . it's common market innit? Never sold a plum at all. He was saying what happened was the last three years there's been no plums about so the supermarkets have sort of found something else. Now there is plums they don't want them. Don't want them. Yeah but he was s that was him who was saying they use a lot of plums and puree stuff in babyfood. But now they're not using plums any more, they're using marrow. They use marrow cos it's cheaper. Cos it's cheaper. Yeah, oh yeah. So that's what they use. So, well you imagine what go into bloody babyfoods? Yuk. Well marrows are good for babies. I'll tell you what That's all water and starch isn't it? you buy some Yeah. you buy jam today, it don't last very long. That goes mildewed. Goes off. No it goes moul goes mouldy Do you know why? very quick. Yeah. Cos they're not allowed to put the preservatives in it any more. Oh you know that bit of cheese we got from Superkey? Yeah. That mum said she cu definitely cut it off. What you mean? Cos we thought it was a bit what they had pre-wrapped ? But it was mouldy! Yeah. But she said she definitely cut it off while she waited. Geoff's mum got me a piece of cheese last week from Superkeys. On the Friday that was wasn't it? On the Friday. I opened it on Saturday and it was mouldy. It was mouldy. Well you should have rung them up. Well that's naughty that is. Isn't it mum? You should have rung them up. Well I thought perhaps it was a bit what was wrapped up Wrapped up and we thought that had perhaps been But mum said no. Definitely not. She cut it off. Well their Rose, she got a bit on the once when she went up there and she come over here she said to us would we take it up and change . She never noticed it when she was in there and when she turned it over that was all green, all the way round. Yeah? But they changed it. Yeah? Oh yeah cos he said he'd Got to press record and play. I did press it. You didn't. Perhaps I didn't press it hard enough. That's gotta click in, yeah. Ah, did you press them at the same time? Are you supposed to press them at the same time? I dunno. Yes. on there. Have you ever had that drink orange it's Taboo, Taboo? Malibou. Malbou or something. Malibou. Malibou. Have you ever had it? It looks like an Old Spice bottle. It's a li er A white bottle. A white bottle. Er a sort of erm Yeah. coconut. A smeary colour. Yeah. rum. Yeah. Coconut sort of stuff. That's coconut and rum. Yeah. No, this is erm orange or lemon stuff. It's five ninety nine a bottle. She mix they what did she have with it? I I'm sure it's Tayboo. She's not talking about Tia Maria is she? No. Taboo? No it's not Taboo as I I think it's Tayboo. T A B I've gotta get her a bottle anyway Double O? when I go in Superkey. I know where it is. Is it double O? She said it's a lovely drink. Aah! That's orange juice and we we had a free sample one year. Them, that girl give a free sample. You can get it in orange or lemon. What you've gotta do is get the money of her. Orange and erm oh like a vod Apricot? What is it, vodka orange and God knows . and something else. Jonathan don't do that mate. Yeah erm she put, she said Gateway's th they've been selling a lot and there is none in Lynn. Well do you know Costs twenty pounds more that hostess trolley in here than in Comet. Cor. Cos didn't I say to you it's a hundred and nineteen quid and when I bought yours it was a hundred pound. Yeah. Hundred and forty quid in Curry's. What was I saying? Yeah and we was looking at the the wines and spirits in there. Cos I like that, that erm Lambrusco Mm. What's that? wine. Wine. Wine. It's a white wine, it's ever so ni Sounds like a bloody scooter.. Lambresco. Lambresco. And in there how much was it? In where? In Gateways. That was three pound Mind you don't swallow that. Good grief. Two forty nine wasn't it? Two forty nine was the ordinary wine. You get that that'll choke you. Yeah two forty nine was the ordinary wine. What? That's two pound at the shop. And it's two pound in my village shop. So I said to Geoff I'll get it up the village shop. That'll get down the back of your throat, that'll choke you. Yeah Well sometimes you can get things cheaper in your village shop. No you wouldn't be ab once that's gone right down your windpipe you wouldn't get it up. Yeah but you could get Lambresco again but non-alcoholic. Oh. And that was what? That was only one forty nine a bottle. Which is cheap cos a lot of non-alcoholic wines are expensive. Yeah. Well I can't drink wine. It gives me a bad head. Makes me makes oh it I like ginger wine. gives me a bad head it do and it upsets me stomach. Ain't too bad. What do you like to drink? As soon as I drink wine I next morning I feel like nothing on earth. really. Not bothered? No. Yeah? I reckon that's the additives they put in it these days. You've got two bottles of erm ? upstairs. Oh I might have one of them Lift your toe lift your foot up granddad. What? Life your foot up. Have you got some? You've got some. Joey bought you some. Oh. We drank ours. I ain't got any now. I ain't drunk mine yet. I ain't even started it. I got a bottle of gin a bloke bought me three years ago. That should be some powerful stuff. We better have that then, for christmas. We've got a bottle of apricot wine what we've had for about twelve years. Bugger me. We had some apricot wine. Was that oh it was vile weren't it? Yeah. That was bloody revolting. We tried it. Oh my god! Elsie give it to us, years ago. Ooh! You know how long that is. Oh I saw Did you? How was she then? Don't hurt granddad's toes Jonathan. That won't hurt. I bet it don't hurt. wearing too much make up . Try it on yourself a bit. Yeah. What ? I'll tell you what erm Marion says she likes this drink anyway. That don't hurt. Come on. Do hurt don't it? I'm gonna get her some this week. Put it in your fingers. Look it don't hurt your fingers. I thought Taboo was scent. That is scent, Taboo. Taboo yeah it is scent. No no. Tabasco. Tabasco. That Oh mother . Well it just suddenly come to me. I knew I'd seen it but I'd never tried it. I ain't very good with the Oh what is that then? That's orange juice and what then? Something else she has. I'm just trying to cos he offered me a drink and I said no. I think it's orange juice and rum. White rum. You know erm Well I thought it was something orange But it, it's not just orange juice cos it's I thought it was orange juice and vodka and something else. Yeah something That's she mixes something with it. It's Well it ain't a bloody mixer drink surely? Well yeah she has it with it's five fifty nine a bottle. Whatever it is. Yeah but you could put something with it if you wanted . Oh you mean she has lemonade or something like that? Yeah I I think so. Oh. And she likes it. All they do in that house is drink and smoke don't they? And she said that they seem to be selling more Oh Geoff it's dreadful in there. Yeah. selling more of it now. What you mean, it's dreadful in there. Oh the smoke hit you, don't it mum? Well when I go, I went u I just won't have washed my hair on Sundays cos if I go there to get mum, I know damn well my hair's gonna stink, so I might as well not bother. Oh. Oh. Oh I see, you The arms don't go up and down then? No. like that do they? No. Oh yeah. Oh he's bending his legs, waaah. No. And then he can go pow pow pow pow. Oh. Where do you get that from? Er I was just telling him, they've got big ones like that about that size I think in in Woolworths. Mm. But you punch it they're sort of flesh are they ? like a flesh skin. And they've got their muscles . There's three type, three different wrestlers and Yeah. course the kids can punch them about Yeah? and kick them and that. But they're quite er fascinating really. Yeah . I'd love one. Oh aah . No doubt you would. You'd like everything. All the things you want for christmas Jonathan, I need a money tree. She lovely for her age? Yeah. Shame you haven't got one. We've got a picture of her in the health club in a leotard doing a pose like that. In a white leotard. Oh it'd be good if we could make a money tree. And after we'd made one we'd get erm Be nice if we had one. Wouldn't it? And she's right, as you go down the Yeah. corridor you go to the studio at the end then the toning tables there. If you wanted a pound just If you look down the corridor there's a big picture of her Yeah fifty quid. on the end wall in this white leotard. And then I always say I definitely . He won't do too badly for christmas . Yeah. She's over fifty you know. Yeah ain't she. Mind you, you don't know how much help they have do you? No . Where is that? I was just Old Les Dawson was good last night Geoff. No, don't start that. No. Yeah? Oh he made you have, he had I can't do it . made you fits of laughter . No well you do, I don't. Win a christmas hamper. He does. What, this christmas or next christmas? This christmas. I can get this one. Here Jonathan, there's a job for you. O-oh. Oh is it?three questions . How many christmas trees in our cartoon . Where's the cartoon? Oh this at the bottom. I done a one the other day that was twenty five pence it was some charity thing. You'd got Where do you find the money? north west That's what I thought. What? One north . What you had to do they're making a giant they're making a giant Here Jonathan, come on let's . christmas pudding. Mm. And you've got to guess how much it will weigh. you gotta do look you send it away. Oh aye yeah. So I put seven hundred and sixty five Do what it says. pound five ounces. Yeah. And the first prize is two hundred What, in here? fifty pounds worth of carpet. Yeah. Get a pen. Don't write on the bit though. Just o Oh. So I thought I'll have a new carpet in my hall. Yeah. Where should I write it down? Well don't, let's see how we gotta do it. Wonder if got his carpet down Friday. Yeah. I knew all about it but he didn't So you can do it on the picture then. You've gotta find the christmas trees. What are them three doing? And then, I know the answers to this one. In which traditional christmas dish would you find a sixpence ? Christmas pudding. You don't know what a sixpence is do you? Sixpence? It's a coin. Mm. A little tiny coin like that. Two and a half p . We used to have when we was kiddies. Used to be sixpence. And they used to put them in the christmas pudding. Like a five pence piece. Yeah and now what's with the, what about this one,well known christmas carol the something and the . Mm? You gotta put a word The holly and the ivy. Mm. Oh. Now, that says a well known christmas carol. That goes the holly and the ivy . I was looking at this. Alright? So you find the trees What's the next one? That's it. You've gotta find the trees in that picture. He can do that. oh Whatever would he win? Well, send it off and we win a hamper. What, any old christmas trees? Well yeah any of the christmas trees Oh. He's got has he? Like that, and like that Yeah there's one there yeah, yeah all of them. and like that? Erm Gordon's garage they've I'll put a little line on them. smashed all the lock off. Why? . He said bloody ironic isn't it? Said he said and the bloke got gone bananas he said, he Here's one. call Wendy everything. Why? Reckon it was a sort of put up job. So he said I got back on the phone to him and I said as far as I'm concerned you can get in your car and come down here and fetch back what's left. And you can sort out delivering yourself. So he said he rung him back six o'clock that night and he'd sort of calmed down a bit. That's it. So he said er I've gotta buy erm Paul a new lock because he's got a big padlock and Make sure No, must be more than that cos we've got to win the prize. I dunno something else on the garage that . One, two one two three He said I thought Er erm four it's alright still is it? five Never asked him. six aren't we? Oh yeah. six . How many is there? Well I did, the other week I'll Yeah. We'll have to sort that out soon won't we? They don't say. You've gotta find them. Keep looking and then ask nanny to have a look and see if she can see any. Yeah cos otherwise spend a lot more aren't we? Mm. Well he sai he did say he was gonna come and see you about this money. Jonathan don't chew the pen cos your make your teeth hurt. Mm. Well it's quid isn't it? Well yeah and then I did make a note by the way for that. I sat that's besides of what he's down and worked out how many days he's had the long wheelbase this week. And the two days for this year and the two days for the estate car. Yeah? That's it. Well perhaps you can just forget one of them and do the one. Aah. Two of them weren't it? Fifty quid isn't it? Yeah. Was it fifty? They found it? Yeah. with you? I felt right faint then for a minute. That's cos you was bending over. Have you found them Jonathan. I've found three four not enough of them your brain. Let's see er Oh Susan does look a one two peculiar colour. Oh. three four That's cos she was leaning right over you see. got a big crease on his face look. That's that lady's . Oh wait a minute, let me put me feet up. Good god. don't she? . Change of life, That'll bring your colour back . No, it's a bit too early yet. you say that, what about Gertie next door. She start Oh yes she when she was thirty eight. Yeah. What was that? Change of life. Change of life. Dad says it's change of life. What did I do with that ticket mum? Yeah? What ticket? I want that. That's for late night shopping at When did she start putting on weight? Oh that's better. Who, Gertie? Mm. When she was thirty eight. She was eighty one yesterday. Was she really? Bless her. Marian bought her a plant. Do you remember er Mrs Jonathan? Yeah. What did she use to do to you? . She used to squash me. Touch wood I wouldn't get as fat as Mrs . No. I wondered if it was something to do with the change. She used to get hold of Jonathan That's what made me think, you know? She used to get hold of Jonathan's face When she started getting fat. and squeeze it. Yeah that's it. Six. Marian bought her a plant yesterday. Oh did she? Yeah. She's still doing that is she? Yeah. Oh crumbs. There's a cup down there June. don't worry. I'll pick them up. gotta christmas erm . Is she? Sarah's ready for her roof Bob. Is she? Yeah. Oh well. Yeah, she's all Fast workers then. Yeah Cor and the brickwork Has she got that Watson? Can't be very good. What mate? I'll tell you something that's better brickwork than that is beautiful brickwork. Geoff can you look in that picture and see if you see any more christmas trees other than what Jonathan's marked. Has she got dark bricks or light bricks? No, she's got sort of a medium brick but she's got a brown mortar. Have you got an envelopes I can stick ? No darling. But that, that that is innit Geoff? I've seen, I've I've not seen brickwork like it. No it's a . It is immaculate. Why what do you want? I was gonna do that competition but I've gotta car we've got one at home. I'll do it from home. Well cut it out and do it then. Oh. That is really good innit Geoff? You don't usually get good brickwork when they're piecework though. Well he's not piecework is he? he ain't been long doing it. Well it's only a bungalow is it? Took six months to build that. Ruth Rendell tonight. There's three men been working on it all the time. Oh no. it was the end of the one I hate Ruth Rendell. Oh I love Ruth Rendell. We ain't, we ain't been watching I get fed up with it. Oh no, I like it. It's a new one starting I may go to bed early and read me books. New one's starting next week. I read them, I've read the books some of the Ruth Rendell books. Yeah. Oh if I was me and I was on my own I'd ha I'd have to have the telly in the bedroom. Well how can I get it in me bedroom? I ain't got an aerial in there. Get one then. I tell you what I'd like to do in Jonathan's. You know he's got his telly standing on that dressing table? What I want, you can bu portable innit? Yeah but You can buy a little thing June's portable aerial works alright. My portable aerial works lovely. Used to have it in his bedroom. Well in fact What I want to do What do you do then, with it? Just plug it in the mains? Course you do. There's yeah, you you plug the electric plug you plug in the mains. Yeah? And the other aerial is just plugged in the back where the aerial goes. There's a little tiny plug and that works off that aerial okay. Well I have got a plug and lead hanging out. Do you just switch that into the aerial socket? Yeah. Put that in where the aerial goes. Yeah. Oh well I could have a look at that then. And then you have to what you'll have to do erm don't bother to change the telly for the moment. Just get hold of the aerial and just sort of twist it round and see if you can a good enough picture. If you can't Well I'll get a lo well well then you'll have to set up again with your controls. that telly was mine but I've got a lovely picture when I used to have it in the kitchen. I used to sit there What, without having it sort of with an aerial? Yeah. No aerial. Yeah. Oh well I didn't think I could do that without That was a nice telly that. The only time you don't get a very good p if the atmospherics is a bit haywire. Yeah. And if that's a damp night or something Yeah. That goes a bit haywire then. I'll have to try it and see how I get on. Yeah well what I want for Jonathan's bedroom, you can buy them. You put them in the sort of the corner, Mr 's got one, you extend your telly. Yeah. Yeah well one of them'd be handy for Jonathan's bedroom Yeah but not too high. No, not too high Who's bedroom? Yeah to put that portable telly on and then he's got all the space on the top for his computer. Can I pinch his pen for a minute? Cos there ain't a lot of space for the is there? Hey mum! There is one thing I thought of. You know I can't find anywhere to put my joysticks and my light guns. Could we put some little holders underneath that little square bit? Well yeah we could I tell you what Makes a lot, the from there. we could put on. What? We could put under there to hang some bits and pieces up, some of them little sticker things. Then you can hang some up under What sticker things? Sticker things? Like mum's got her tea towels on. Or put some well I don't wanna start drilling holes in it. No. You don't have to drill holes in it. What do you wanna hang on it then? What do you win? The light gun. Cos I haven't got nowhere to put it. Drill holes in what June? worth of Saint Michael's food and drink. His dressing table. Oh. Oh. You don't have to drill them though. Yeah well mum's yeah but you can get them You'd have to drill holes in the wall. Well a desk. You can get them little hooks like I hang my tea cloths on. Some pretty little ones. If you put it underneath the desk, a few of them. And then the light gun could slot in that. That's, have you ever tried a stollen June? Pardon? They come off though. That's like a christmas cake A stollen? Yeah. With, with erm marzipan in, in the actual inside. And when you cut it Never tried it. you get the marzipan in er it's lovely. And they have all this dusted icing on the outside. Mr 's wife made it. and I had a bit there. Well you make them then? I don't, you can buy them. You're not making a christmas cake are you? No. I've got a dundee cake. I'll perhaps buy one or What? Christmas cake. I'd like to We'll only waste it. Well they do I'd like to make one but Well make one then. Well make a little one. And I'll ice it for you. Well I got a little Dundee cake. Yeah. Light it. Whoosh. I've gotta do me own And I bet nobody'll eat that. Well I ain't bothered cos Geoff'll eat it for his lunch. Well if you win this Geoff you get twelve twelve Cor I dunno bottles of champagne. I bet I can make you blink. Mm. Champagne Saint Paul's. Six bottles of chateaux I bet you five pound I can make you blink. looks like not on red wine . Six bottles of Chablis Didn't blink. premiere white wine and twelve bottles of bucks fizz. You did then. Twelve bottles No. of sangria. Twelve bottles of Planters punch and two port decanters . Schluup. Bloody norah. You like a drop of port don't you Geoff? Yeah. A section selection of fruit juices totalling thirty pounds Didn't blink. and malt selection as well. You blinked then. You want that boiled fruit tastes nice. Mm. I made you one. Oh I've made, you can make oh me and you used to make them didn't we? Cos father used to like them. You blinked then. Well do you know if I'd thought about it whoosh. No don't Jonathan. Got to make you go whoosh. If I'd have thought about it, that wedding cake she give me We could have took the icing off that. If I'd have took that icing off that cake was as moist as anything, I could have re-marzipanned that Yeah. and re-iced that for christmas. Yeah but what about for me dinner? But Geoff has eaten it. Did you a favour there didn't she Geoff? I I sent his Yeah. I sent his friend, cos his friend loves cherries That cake's three year old. Mm. so I sent his friend bi when I cut it there's some bits got ever so many cherries in so I sent his friend up with the cherries in. Jonathan. Don't keep going in them drawers. And what did you do? Aah! I give him the cherries and ate the cake myself . Give him the cherries and ate the cake and then Geoff told him. I said I gotta tell you something. He said what? I said I gotta come clean with you. He said what? I said you know you've been having them cherries? He said yeah. I said well actually the cake was for you as well. You thieving git he said . I said my wife has been giving me two and three bits every day thinking you're having one of them. And Geoff was Bloody hell he said. and Geoff was eating them. So now every day he looks to make sure how many I got. I shall put him a bit in tomorrow though. What happened that lump we had then? He don't have no dinner. His wife don't pack him up Well no dinner. Oh. had last week and I threw the other little bit out. And he's a bloody great fat bloke and he sits here all day and He's huge! has a cup of coffee for his dinner. I said Didn't Della speak to you today then? No. No-one in mate, no. What? No. She come downstairs well not for the first half hour. She came downstairs, she slopped all the way through to the kitchen made herself a cup of tea and sat Was she dressed? down n yeah she was dressed sat down and ha she didn't even, she walked past Auntie Alice, she didn't even say good morning grandma good morning nan or anything. Yeah? And then she slopped herself down, got a fag and just about choked me and Auntie Alice out and then she did start to speak. So well she obviously needs a fag and a cup of tea before she Well she's only just joined the human race when she's had a fag and a cup of coffee. Well that was quar that was about twenty past eleven. Yeah I know but I mean the, the fag and the coffee revived her. And she'd only just got up? was still in bed. What a mess. Well Auntie Alice said you can't wonder they stay in bed. She said they bought theirselves a a bottle of brandy last night and erm Oh christ, that's why then. some Babycham and she said they'd sat there and drank a bottle of brandy and Babycham all night she said. Good grief. Good goodness. Goodness me. Bloody alcoholics then. Well they have erm three bottles of lager on a Saturday night and they're them big bottles like that, you know them plastic bottles? Three bottles they drink between the two of them. Bugger me. Do they really? Well last Wednesday my supervisor put on my clock card A A. So I said why? I said I've been sitting here all lunchtime trying to sort out what bloody A A is apart from Alcoholics Anonymous. A A? I said on my clock card. Authorized absence he said. I said oh. I said I was getting quite concerned about something . I thought you thought I was on the wagon or something. Couldn't you think of that? I just couldn't, I thought I thought it'd got something to do with absence. I kept thinking absence absence absence I'm gonna send that off. Try and win that. We had, that's like we had a letter the other day we had to sign for Jonathan. That and I said to Geoff what's D O B? Date of birth. Date of birth. Yeah. Dob. Dob. Dob. Well cos see I do DOB all the time so I know what it is . Yeah well I I said to Geoff I thought about it, but I did that come to me quite quickly but Geoff couldn't think of it could you Geoff? That's that's like erm when we had a new girl once we put on the card BANW banw. Mm. So she said what does banw mean? She said I can't work that out . She said I've thought of everything. I said broken appointment no warning. That DOB could really mean a lot of things. You can find a lot of Innit? words for that. Yeah. Broken appointment no warning. Mean they didn't let us know. Yeah. But then there's another one, D T C. She she said what's D T C ? Said dental treatment complete. In fact all I do is two lines like that. A line like that and a line like that. Cos that means treatment's complete. Mm. Oh. But it's, we use we use all little sort of erm symbols and things as well. And I mean if, not unless, if you don't know them, you have to learn them. round the home there's I mean I used to, I can chart the American way you see cos but the American way is different to the British way cos we just count number one to eight but with an American they go one one, one two, one three, one four, one five, one six and then they come this way. And then that one is two one, two two, two three, two four like that. And then you go this way and that's three three one, three two three's four. Then you go there and that's four one, four two. So you've got tooth number forty one, thirty eight, you see but you ain't got all them teeth in your head. Blimey. How confusing. Well I said that's a complicated way but I have to do that when I go over to Marks and Spencers you see. Why do you have to do it over Marks and Spencers? Well because they cut, they chart that way. That's continental as well. We'll probably have to go to that if we join the Common Market. That'll fuse confuse every dental nurse in the king in erm England. Cor. It's dark out there. In England I think. Well it's getting late. What's the time? Is it? Is it twenty five to five, dad? Nearer twenty to five nearly, yeah. Yeah we shall have to go soon Geoff cos you've gotta take that man back. Alright . Yeah I gotta take Paul back, yeah. I'll have to have a lift. And then I'm Yeah. We've gotta see if we can get Susan's coat drop in. Did you hear that one? I go whoosh. If anybody's there. Oh please if you Well if they're not there I'll ask her to ring me If they're not in tomorrow morning. If you could. Well yeah I'm trying my best Susan. I've tried twice. Well yeah, I know. If you can't don't worry. But that is easier to leave it at Pam's you see. And then she can pick it up when she ca got the time. Then Sally can pick it up. Cos I don't know what state, I don't know whether Sally's gone back to work yet or not. What is wrong with her? Well she had Nerves weren't it? sort of virtually nervous breakdown. What caused that then? Dunno. Was it the shock of telling her family she was expecting? Well that and I think the house you know was sort of Well Didn't she want a baby then? house and everything. Oh yeah. Yeah. I think she well and the house was certainly getting on her nerves but whether it was because she was ill it was getting on her nerves I don't know. You see she was being si she's been sick continuously day and night. Oh dear. Who's that? Sally. Bet she's lost some weight then? Certainly has. Who has? Sally. She was never very fat anyway was she? She'd lost a bit of weight anyway hadn't she? Sally who? Sally . Don't know her. Ron's daughter. Ron's oldest daughter. Oh! Well she's expecting isn't she? Yeah. Yeah. Whatever does the daughter say? Dunno. Dunno. Emma. Is that that one that lives in a caravan or did live in one? Emma what? No, she used to live in a flat down Waltham She now lives Oh yeah, that's right yeah. just round the corner from fruit packers. Does Emma ever get in contact with her dad? No. Only christmas times. He brings a present down. How old is Emma now then? . Well she must be thirteen. Well yeah. She's been at grammar school a good year hasn't she? She's about thirteen. She'll be four Only you said Sally's having another baby? Yeah. Mm. Father's this chap she's now they've bought a house down near fruit packing. Oh. She's been going out with him two or three year hasn't she June? Oh. Oh. Yeah. And now they've bought this house, so He's got er sons of eighteen and nineteen. Oh dear. Nanny. Has he been married before? Obviously. Yeah. Have you got any thread? No. Cotton? What'll happen to his boys then? No. You don't Dunno. I dunno. Not handy. Why? What do you want it for? Judy her name was. I just need about that much. . What where they, Punch and Judy? What do you want it for? Mm. I just need that much. Mum, he's a Punch and Judy man. Who? Sally's boyfriend. Does Punch and Ju Oh my gawd. Mum wouldn't like that. Mum's frightened . You wouldn't like that mother would you? You hate it don't you ? Oh I hate them. Can't stick them. Mum's frightened of Punch and Judy. Yeah . Mother's frightened of Punch and Judy ! It virtually terrifies her. Yeah. Why have you been frightened of it mum? I dunno, I've always been frightened and clowns. I don't like them. clowns? Well no good taking you No I ain't really I ain't really into clowns I must admit. If anybody bought me a clown Have you got a doll I'm afraid I'd have to give it back to them. Jonathan's got a clown doll hasn't he June? I couldn't, oh. No he ain't that's a that's a black one. I'm a bit that way about garden gnomes. But Punch and Judy What's that doll I bought him? er when he starts that noise. Ooh. garden fete that time. Yeah. Golliwog. He also does these he hires Golliwog. He's still got it. Yeah. out this castle Yeah it sleeps. still got it. Yeah. You bought him that from the garden fete. Cos we said you never get a golliwog and we saw one and we Yeah. liked it and he said what's that? And Yeah you never very often see a golliwog do you? No. No because race . Nanny. And have you got a button? I work with one. No I dunno. Yeah. Don't think we're race but That's I can't see nothing wrong with golliwogs anyway. button . No. Yeah but you don't very often get a black doll do you? You can't get them. Oh talking about dolls Well why can't you get a black doll? You can I suppose. I've seen black dolls. Not very often though. No but I'm sure I've seen one somewhere. I tell you what I saw on the telly this morning. They showed, that was on the children's thing where they do the toys. You know how they sort of bombard the telly with toys Yeah. and children want them all don't they? Yeah. There was two dolls, a boy and a girl doll and the boy was actually like a boy. Yeah? If you know what I mean. You don't very often see that do you? No but it was. Definitely. We see this little old boy walking round town Oh. today and he'd got a cap on and he'd got long blond hair hadn't he? Yeah. He looked li . And Jonathan said it looked like . It looked like a little man. Yeah it did, it looked just like a little old man. Oh you would have liked the dog what er was a woman outside, they was eating their things outside cos they'd got a dog You're not allowed to have dogs down there. You know that. Yeah. She's got it. Well there's no end of dogs. It's illegal. Yeah there's a white scottie dog I saw. There's a white scottie dog. That's illegal. You mustn't have dogs down the council. Yeah they There was no end of people walking dogs through there. Yeah. Yeah well it, that's illegal. Well I can't help that if they were there. Was there many shops open? There wasn't any. No. Cos a lot of them's open today ain't they? Gateways Yeah. and all that. What today? Yeah. Yeah. First of December. That was on the telly last night weren't it? Yeah. They're I might go round Yeah but it's only the supermarkets and that isn't it? Supermarkets and the There ain't none in Lynn now is there? I said to June Yeah. Halifax Building Society's up for sale. Gateways. And Sainsburys. Sainsburys. Halifax? No Tesco's. Yeah, near the Wimpy there. Great big sign up for sale. go up the town Are they? Cor that'll be I'm er we said when that big new Tesco's open Sort of erm near the computer place. There's great big new Tesco's in Wisbech Oh yeah but they've moved. soon isn't there? Have they? Oh. Yeah. Are they right are they right on the corner of, you know where Midland Bank is? That'll be good in there. I shall be going there I think. Well Gateways is getting terribly expensive. Yeah? You look I know! on that corner. Yeah. Well we was only saying we'd spent eighty something odd Not what used to be a restaurant? Yeah. pound no, ninety one Yeehaa Oh shop weren't it? This is what I'm Jonathan . I'm trying to talk to nanny. Yeah. Er ninety one pound in there. Ah. And you couldn't really see much what we'd got, could you Geoff? Dad. No. Oh, you're doing one of them. But we had eighty one pounds in stamps. So that helped out a lot. But I've noticed they, they're go they're, a lot of their things have gone up tremendously in there. Well straw I picked up strawberry jam and that was sixty two That used to be for and it us was forty seven weren't it? Yeah it was forty seven. From sixty two. Yeah. Now it's sixty two. I said this,thi this next year I'm gonna try and m make no end of jam. Cos Geoff only eats strawberry well I oughta make it all really cos that'd be far cheaper wouldn't it? It'd go mildew though you keep it too long. Oh no, ours don't Bob. Not if you keep the top on. Oh. Mine's never gone mouldy. But I mean No it ain't. we bought a like some strawberry jam in in Superkey the other week and I had I didn't think that was mildew. Yeah well no that's what Dorothy did the marmalade on the top. gone bloody mildew and she has home made isn't it? Yeah? And er Yeah well you know why. Cos her house is a bit damp. Mm. That ain't got nothing to do with it. Anyway, I had to throw half of it away last week when I went to make some jam tarts. I said to your dad we ain't had that in here five minutes. Well I I've got some. And mine isn't. Oh. Mine did. I opened a jar last week. In fact I haven't even opened mine yet. Ours don't get bloody chance to get mildew on. Well I'll I'll tell No Geoff has a jar a week you see. Bloody do. A jar and a half some weeks. But We have one of th we have a la we have a large jar of coffee of that a week, and we have er a jar and a half of jam a week. Who eats, drinks and eats all that? He does. I do. You little glutton you. Oh I have two pound of butter a week. I have three rounds of toast and jam each morning. I have I have two And a bowl of cornflakes. I have two pound of butter a week. Six loaves of bread. A big jar of coffee. Erm jar and a half of jam. Don't I? Yeah. And that and that's without all the rest of the groceries. Hundred and ninety teabags. No I don't. Who drinks all the coffee? Do you drink a lot of it? He does. I do. He does. How many cups of coffee do you have a day then? Well I have one in the morning Nanny. Can you remember this? Yeah then he has a flask you see. Then I have there's three in the flask. Yeah, I suppose you See and then he has Then I buy one at work as well. Mm. For the afternoon break and sometimes dinner. I used to do that I'll have you know. Sometimes I have coke for my dinner. I sometimes think I drink a lot of co tea, but I don't drink that much then. I dr I d I I drink two or three cups of coffee a morning. I'm there twelve hours I I . But then I don't drink any more. I don't drink any all afternoon, coffee and tea a lot. I like tea better than coffee. Well I wouldn't, I wouldn't drink er coffee now, this time of a night cos that gives me a bad head. Well it keeps me awake. Well I don't need nothing to keep You can always have tea. me awake Susan. I'm awake half the time I don't think anything'd keep me awake. I was saying I can virtually survive on four hours sleep, I can, at the moment. Mm. Could you give me couple of hours? Yeah you can have a couple. As you get older you're not supposed to need so much. You don't sleep so much as you get older. Well I reckon I need bloody more. You don't need so you shouldn't Cor! Well Geoffrey seems to need more. You shouldn't need so much. I stagger upstairs and I ooh ooh ooh. Sometimes that's too much effort to get my clothes off. Geoff could go to sleep at seven. Bloody right too. Well you see I go to bed, but I don't always go to sleep. Sometimes I'm reading till twelve To read. Yeah. I read till twelve and then I'm up again at five. Half past five. I went to bed the other night. Did June tell you? I went to bed Friday night and my head was like a cor that was really, all round here that was really sort of hurting. I said I've got to go to bed. You probably had a migraine. Went to bed and I'd got to bed and I'd been there I don't know how long And you said you was feeling a bit better didn't you? And Joey rings up and said I can't get down. Can you deliver that car? So I had to get out of bed, get dressed and go down bloody Tilney again. The old git. You mustn't lose that Jonathan. He messed us about this weekend didn't he? He really did . What's that? Never again. pass my handbag up and I'll give you that money for the cat food. Oh I know what I was gonna say to you. Yes. Did you get any envelopes? Cos you've gotta or are you gonna er sort that out with Susan about that What? money for him across the road? Oh I'll give him a cheque some time this week. I don't wanna rush in to him. He won't appreciate it if I do. That's today the Mind you he come down from five hundred to two hundred and fifty so that's helped a bit. Yeah well that's what I mean. You, I should give it him quick. That's what I would think say if you'd done it I could have took it for you tomorrow or the next day. Well do it the next day then Geoff. Yeah. Have you got a pen there? Drop it in and you can just put David on it. I did have your pen mother. What did I do with it? Yeah. Hopefully I should have another bang middle of the week so I, if I give them both to you then I Oh yeah and a plonker. What did I do with it? How much do I owe you mum? I'm just gonna try and work it out. Down the side of the chair? No. Here you are . Here's a pen. Susan's got it. Oh she's got it look. I'm gonna tidy up a bit and Jonathan just give nanny the pen darling. Don't keep tapping Gotta put mark this somehow. Erm,. It's on there. It's four thirty nine's, that's all. Four tins of meat. Four thirty nine's Geoff? One fifty six. And with your your s television stamp Two two fifty six. Oh that reminds me, we've got to get a telly licence. So I've got it. Took it down there for mum. Oh that's done is it? Yeah. Finished? Oh good. I owe her a pound. Oh good. Yeah. Well it's not done Did you have your stamps saved? I get them. Yeah. Yeah I do cos it's Well do you know Ken and Sally haven't have one for six months. Oh longer than that. Longer than that? Why haven't they got one? Well she's alread they've already been done once. They were done once at the other house weren't they? Yeah. Hundred and eighty four quid they Cos you get a four hundred pounds cos the second She's already been done once. Now I ain't gonna be done for a telly licence. Well no, because I mean you need a telly lic telly don't you? It ain't worth it. She's moved. They ain't got no tabs on her. six p then. No. Well we see we've been saving the stamps so we had believe it or not We save them. believe it or not we even had fifty pound towards that which is a bloody miracle. Well we always buy a stamp don't we dad? I always buy stamps. Yeah I get stamps yeah. You get Susan's as well. Yeah we do too. Well mum gets It does help you a bit. Although all that does is help the B B C cos they they're getting interest on the money. That's right. You should put it in your building society and then draw it out and get a few bob on it. Yeah but you wouldn't. Yeah but you don't dad, do you? That gets that gets involved in other things don't it? That's it. Fifty quid aren't neither here nor there is it? Well that's right. Well them biscuits are horrible then? Interest on fifty quid a fortune. Yeah expensive aren't they? Now where did I put your money? Here it is. Yeah. Don't forget to get me a receipt will you? No. What's that he wants? Commodore sixty four? Mm. Printer. He ain't getting one for christmas is he? That's what he wants. Oh. That's what he wants. have. I don't know. I'll just have to work out what it was he said he wanted. You've got his list haven't you? I was just looking to see if he'd got his list somewhere. I don't know where it's gone. The list is somewhere around That ain't no good to me mother. Eh? I didn't know whether you had it June? No I have erm Same as what we have. Tetleys. We have Tetleys. You're quiet father. Is that right Geoff? Do you want me to put this in the bin mum or do you want it? What do you want me to do? Jump up and down or something? Is that what he wants? That is it isn't it? What did you say Juney? Yeah? Yeah. Do you want it or No I don't want it really. I don't have that tea. What's that? Tea coupon. You know the, what what I had in It's in the bin now. No you ought to save them and send for one. Got job to do tomorrow. All bank things What! Well you don't have the bloody teabags you burk. We don't use the we don't use that tea, Brooke Bond's Dividend. Mrs 's paying me one too many days. She hadn't paid at all last time No, no. She paid me for this week and she said well I you've got ninety pound here Oh I think I may have to go to the toilet before I go home. cos you see I get she pays me forty pound extra on Saturday No that's Brooke Bond Dividend Yeah. Oh. so I don't pay any tax on that. Tell you what Yeah. You save the coupons. So she said, well I said I've got one oh you're paying me too much now. Said I'm, you er I owe you thirty now. So she said well she said Val does the books she said. I have to I'm not allowed to change the cheques. Cos Val does the bi books six months in advance. So if I work any extra Saturdays I've gotta wait till next Ap till April In advance? Yeah. She does the books six months in advance. In advance? Yeah, she does the wages six months in advance so if Nicky obviously don't get paid any overtime at all does she? Or if she does she has to wait till the e I've never heard nothing so stupid in my life. she has to wait till Val comes back from holiday. Cos Val is away you see. We're going through the table. So she owes you money then? No, I owe her some now. And the is coming through. Well how does she to do the books in advance cos she don't know what patients are gonna turn up. No but she does, she does this type of thing, the wages and that in advance. Oh that's better. Well I've never heard nowt like it in my life. Well Mr thinks it's pretty . Well I've never heard nothing like it. What? So She does her books six months in advance. Not up to date, but she does them six months in advance. Well how the hell can you do your books in advance? Well that's what I thought. Well she does, a lot of them. Nicky could leave next week couldn't she? Yeah well if that's so she's gotta alter all her books. Cos one Tricia gave me an extra, extra er payment. Yeah. Tricia gave me she could drop dead over night. Tricia er Tricia gave me an extra payment out of her erm Put your shoes on Jonathan cos we're gonna go in a minute. Cos I did a weekend and so she said well erm I'll tell you what Ann she said, I'll give you a cheque myself she said cos you, you'll I'll pay you the same as Now don't put it near anybody cos that'll cut them. I'll pay you the same as what I pay you on a Saturday is that okay? I said that's fine. Yeah that'll do nicely. a tangle. Cut that string. So then she said No. You mustn't do that is that alright? So I said yes. So then next week oh she said, I got in bloody deep water last week Go go and put your shoes on Jonathan. Sue paying you. I said what do you mean paying me? I said Oh So Dave looked up, he said well Ann worked you have to pay her, simple as that isn't it? She she said I got Jonathan . Stay in here with it . she said I should have waited until Val had worked had worked Aah! Come and get your shoes on. and put it on the end. So, so he said Oh I burnt my finger. that means Ann had got to wait till April cheque. Get your shoes on please. Yeah I'm doing it. Oh She said well yeah possibly. He said well do you wait for April for your money from your patients? Bloody right. So she said no. So he said well Well we w Geoff nearly had I've never heard anything like it. Well Geoff nearly had a fit about this firm who owes us two hundred pound. It's more than two hundred quid isn't it? Yeah. I'm ringing them in the morning. Well, in the afternoon I think that's better Why's that? cos they're never there, seem to be there the Why, what's the matter with them? Well the old boy works at Beck and Pollitzers you know? Oh yeah in Lynn. And erm he's hired from me for some time now You'd better send the mafia round Geoff. and he said some time ago, he rung up one afternoon Susan. and he said my boss Mm. erm wants a minibus like his boy was in some sort of football team and they need a b need a bim need a minibus. So the bloke come over and hire it. Quite a nice old boy. Hired the minibus. No problems. Well then he rung up few weeks ago and he said to June, we'll need a car for a week. One of the whether it's him or whatever but one of the people who work there needed a car for a week. The boss. What not the Belmont? The boss had it. I thought the boss had the Sierra. Yeah but the boss had the Belmont as well in the first place because erm Oh did he? he couldn't have the Sierra cos the Belmont was the only one what was there. Oh. Well he said send the bill in. Anyway we sent the bill in. Well anyway Twice. a fortnight afterwards he rung up and said his boss had sm something had smashed into his car, and he wanted a car. So he had the Sierra and he said I don't know whether he'll want it for, it could be sort of three or four weeks if they're gonna repair his car or if we can get one within the company like at another depot obviously they'll get that for him rather than hire one off you. Well they had it so long anyway. So he had it couple or three days didn't he? Yeah. Erm it would have been three days cos that's ninety odd quid, ninety six quid. Joey tells me last night he said oh by the way he said you don't wanna hire your car up er the Berry's. I said why's that? Oh he said they've got all sorts of aggro he said. The father's had his house repossessed for not paying the mortgage. And he said the boy has been done by Budget for hiring a Sierra from them and taking the engine out The engine out. and putting it in one of his cars. And replacing it. Gawld. So I said to June, the only thing what flashed through my mind, not the fact about having the engine out or something like that but what flashed through my mind was whether it was for Beck and Pollitzers at all. But I said to Geoff I think it was quite legit because a young boy come down with him Mm. who'd just started working for them and he w he didn't look Oh yeah. that type of boy. He looked he said I've not bo been with them long. I've only just started so he said er I've just come down to you know. Don't you ever ask for any proof of identification? Well we know who they are! Well you see been hiring from me for ten years. Beck and Pollitzer They live next door to to Joey. His father used to hire from They've been hiring us for ten years but we, we ain't gonna hire no more if they're changing the bloody engines. And he said Beck and Pollitzers often hire cars he said and you know he said I thought I'd try and get you the business. Well then about a month later he said he rung June and said I've been speaking to Geoff he said and th they wanna hi er hire a car for a week. But they've never paid us yet. But this is like now it must be A month. Well, it's a good month. Yeah. So I'm gonna ring and Yeah, must be six weeks now. I've got two or three people What, Beck and Pollitzer? Yeah. So we'll have to ring them tomorrow. That's where erm Derek works innit? Mind that don't hit you in the eye. Yeah well at the moment we could do with that in the bank couldn't we? Well that's what I'm saying you've gotta Well that's right. Jonathan, if that breaks and hits someone in the eye, you will be in big trouble. It doesn't cos it ties a knot. It'll hit him in the eye That'll hit his own face. I like him in that jumper and my friend gave him that. That's Isn't that nice? Keep it low. Yeah. Let nanny have a go Jonathan. Well keep it low, not near your eyes. I did put my shoes on cos I thought I shan't get them on in a minute because my feet swell when I sit down. Yeah? It's not very strong string is it? No. Hasn't she got lovely teeth? longer don't you? Yeah some teeth. Well I think it's about time we was going Geoff if you've She's a pretty woman. gotta deliver that that bloke coming back in that car. Don't you think she's pretty June? Yeah. I'm ready. Yes mum, can you get ? Well it's no good taking the tape with him cos he don't talk. No. He don't say much does he? Well turn it off then. Got so much bloody money in here again, I ca Have you turned it off? We ain't gone yet. Oh. We'll just get Has that been recording all the time? Yeah, most of it. Oh well, there you are then, you've got a good Listen don't forget your We got a good session this afternoon So that's the third tape is it? out there. Yeah I was just Yeah, third one. And that's both sides is it? How many more you gotta go up to? I've turned it over. So I perhaps could get How many more have you gotta do? Oh Seventeen. I hope nobody ain't been swearing. I have. me. Mother had. Bugger me she said. They'll say they'll know she came from . Just have a look at them towels, see what you think. So where do you come from mother? Bow. Old Old Bow. Baow. Cor blimey area. Cor lovely Susan. What was the first bit? What was it before Bow? What? Cheap. Look how many was in there but, nine ninety nine. Old . Oh. No you've got them in the bag . Remember when that time Geoff pulled up pub. You know pub. Oh yeah Yeah I remember the Bow but I didn't know about the first bit. I hadn't heard of that before. I could do with some Yeah, Old what other colours do they do? I think I tell you what I keep saying I'm gonna do but I ain't Look there's two that size. got the bloody money to do it. I should like to have a ride down and see that new bridge now. Instead of going through the Dartford tunnel. Hand towels, you know big hand towels these size look. Yeah. That new bridge is open. Look. Oh yeah. What goes right over high over the Thames. Oh yeah. Oh. You go over that and you come back through the tunnel. Oh. That's now open, it opened last month. You'd like to go did you say? Mm. Perhaps we'll have to do that in the new year June. if things change. I'm waiting for someone to use a tankful of petrol so I can go and have a look. Are they flannels? No put through them rings ain't they? Yeah. Oh, nice aren't they? Lovely. Do you know what? I've still got something in my eye. Yeah. Be nice to see that really I suppose. I could do wi I want some erm p I'd like some peachy colour ones for my bathroom. like that. Oh. It's good innit?gotta Well that don't matter. knot at this end. You ain't got no peach ones you don't want have you? I ain't got any peach ones at all. Well I have got some peach ones but they ain't But them ones Bob erm Pam bought me last year was it last year or the year before? my belly. Year before weren't it? You can't use them cos every time you use them you get Oh it's terrible. you get covered in blue dye. You get, you get blue fluff all over your face. You've got me Kattomeat you berk. It's terrible. Aye aye. Oh! That's alright, he'll eat it I should think. That's innit? Yeah. How many tins you got Sue? Oh we can buy them Susan Kattomeat. Susan, how many tins you got? We'll buy them. We have Kattomeat. They're nice. Oh But they're expensive That's alright. He'll eat it. Oh, we don't want no expense. Will he? We don't want no expense. Oh I've got half a tin of cat food for your cat June. They're thirty eight pence a tin and our cat'll eat two tins of them Yeah well we're now gonna come. a day. I bet it can. fresh. Yeah will if if your cat won't eat them, don't throw don't erm I'll I'll pay you for them and Well no there's only one. Oh. How's Ging ? She's only got one. I've got you a liver. Oh yeah he likes that? How's old Ging getting on? He's about. Ging? Mm? Oh yeah he's okay. There's so many cat foods there you, you don't know, cor you've never seen so much cat and dog food. Is he still there? Oh it's ridiculous that is. I tell you something I wish I'd never had that cat round my back door. Well I've got three Juney now. Our black one Because my cat is my cat is weeing all over the place. Well she's frightened isn't she? She's petrified of it. Well Tilly is you see, upstairs Well why? Why would he go after her? She's doctored anyway. Well yeah but he still does. Well why does that black one go after ours? He don't know that does he? Ah yeah but Poo I think it was laying in the boiler cupboard on top of the shoes this morning. Granddad, he don't know that does he? Well if you'd have seen that I mean I and she sleeps in the airing cupboard she's now started to get in there, but she's half out on the landing. You can't shut the blinking door! as you say like there's something funny about cats cos I opened my wardrobe yesterday to get a coat out. Tilly got in there and got amongst all me clothes and started sleeping there. Yeah. Then she gets in the back bedroom, we got a mirror at the back there what was took off one the dressing tables, and she sits and looks at herself in there and she keeps going like that Well my cat's going most peculiar at the moment. and she gets, she gets, if you if you open a cupboard or a drawer she's in it. Even goes in the coal cupboard. Yeah! And I shut her in the coal Comes out as black as she do. Yeah? Well I I often shut erm Fudge in the boiler cupboard. Yeah. And this, the big'un, he sits in the sink. You're getting tall ain't you? We can't get him out but I don't like him I know. in the washing up and that. How much taller am I than him June? Well he won't hurt it. Not a bloody lot. About four inches I should think. But he just jumps from Five perhaps. How tall are you? just jumps from the ground on to there. Five foot one. Cor. That means I'm four foot seven. Four foot seven. Yeah, I should think he is four seven. Something like that. He's definitely gonna be taller than her. Chrissie's four eight. Isn't he cos he only That be four three. Christopher's five, more than four eight. He isn't. He's four eight. Christopher's more than four eight isn't he Geoff? Nick's four next year. God knows. Lovely. He is n't. Wha what's this beer then? Well you'll be big enough for big school Ashley's nowhere near near bigger than that. Helen's, Helen's girl goes to the big school next year. Well do you do you know Geoff, Ashley weighs more than Jonathan. Does he really? Yeah. They g they had to be weighed last week and he weighs more than Jonathan. Who weighs the most in the class? Well I weigh eighty two kilograms. Fay . Fay Ten and a half. Well I think that's embarrassing to do that to children. And Terry was nine and a half. How much do you weigh? Er six. Six? Is that just your head? I weigh eighty two kilograms. I was a hundred and seventeen kilograms. Six and two grams. Six and two kilograms. What's kilograms? Kilograms. Pounds I should think. Er A kilogram is it erm less than a pound? Yeah two pound one kilogram. Bound to be cos litre's l bit less than a gallon innit? Or so many litres to a gallon. Are we going then everybody? Five litres is Cos we said to him the other day how much is so and so Jonathan? Well he can't work in pounds and ounces They don't get involved in cos they don't work in pounds and ounces today. No, no they don't. That's right. It's just kilograms kilograms innit? We we are wrong by by doing it. Aah. But he, you see he's learnt the right way. Ah hurt my hand. Are you doing French at school yet? No. Oh you will go when you go to the other school. They've gotta start learning some more sex haven't they? You can teach us all to learn French when you, once you start. Yeah. Oh oh. Well they ain't learned nothing at this school yet. And th there there was a cartoon in the paper in the week I thought it made me smile really. I know what number seven is in German. It was a What? little boy had been to school and his mother and father was waiting for him to come home. And they stood at the door, and of course he come home with his cap in his hand, he said er they said oh what you do how you got on today? He said we had sex lessons today. He said you filthy pair. Ah no. You disgusting pair. I can Well Pam was a bit upset didn't she? Cos of what they did to erm Oh yeah. that oldest one in his school class. Yeah. What had he done then? Pam told June. Oh. They gave him About homosexuals weren't it? No. Oh they're doing about homosexuals at ? Yeah. And erm what di oh they had to, what did they have to do? Yeah I did tell mum but I can't say in front of Jonathan. Yeah. She, she was well she didn't think it was right. Yeah but the funny thing is, she swears and curses and says Absolutely. all these rude and common things in front of him. Why does she think that's right? She got Well you see the He's, and let's face it, that boy is learning the right way. He ain't learning from slang is he? That's right. When that seven year old kid went in the bedroom and saw what they were doing that didn't matter. No. But when they teach it at school that's wrong. That's it, yeah. Well they . got head screw Well can't they? No. She wants a few more screws in Well you see No I do I think that's wise to teach them in schools because they learn the right way. They learn properly. Mm. They they reckon they've gotta And then after that, what happens after that they know the basics. They know what's going on this that and the other. Well they reckon they've gotta learn more now. Is that off now? They've got to they've got to know now Is it off now? No. It's nearly done. They've got to You ain't gone yet. Don't worry about it. Well you're h It's so big, you know obviously it's Yes it How you doing love, alright? It went Fine thanks. erm Just sort all these out. I just don't wanna come. You've er have you gotta put your dress in here with these? Yes I've got a seminar Oh. when I've that poorly cat's into that walking a can you smell cat's wee in here, I'm surprised No I can't you can't Brian! I could , when I got home today. I'm stopping She's done nothing but wee in my kitchen and now she's in that corner! Was tha your your cat like this? Yes it's such a disgrace, is that what you're saying? What, Dianne? Hello mate! My hairbrush is a I tried to come home. Did you come back in? Is she coming, ya I've just come home. Now you see , she's got it all over her but She's hurt! He said it's very hard for people to give them I I'll Yeah I could trace them today with your erm your washing washing thing I said someone and it's gone!dunnit? I wish I hadn't I wish I hadn't started feeding it but I can't I can't stop now it's not I'll feed it my . And show him Work on here. Well I Yeah I know. Listen, what i have you picked up our car from there there's no point buying a garage Yeah it's in Listen,we we're we Yeah. supposed to smell this cat's piss? Well I'll come down in the morning, I've got the yellow car and start again I can smell it, I've ! you see? Yeah it's terrible though, it's just not on, is it! That's just here somewhere, and it's over here. If you sneak in the garage and do it well I Yeah. work on that one, it's not a bloody house! No you don't, you want at least Pretty strong here! no, blue sorry he pees outside our front door a at the back door, and you can't Yeah. but you really can't smell it. No. But I mean that thing! Yeah it's something he's Well I suppose what's but you see I don't know whether she's doing it that must be her that done it in that corner, cos he ain't been in here! Well it might be this one, but there's somebody all the while she's doing it. Probably what goes in and nothing else happens. I mean Louis seems to be really sort of like a different cat but it's not But my fault that I don't he he don't erm the cat don't drudge her get No. in the way of, but she's just nervous it for some reason. Well she's a nervous cat anyway isn't she? But I think Yeah she won't Same as Louis. Once they've I'd get a little tray in here overnight, I reckon. going on shooting,said he's shooting them. Ah now there's a love. That one , everybody hates them, I think cat. Yes. Isn't , isn't he looking well though Brian? Yes, I mean I told him that the other day when his dad was here the other Yeah. Sunday. Yeah Sunday. He did look a nice old cat, they seem to be a nice But do you know that er nice colouring though isn't he? Any old but ever so fussy! Yeah. you know But you used to match them up together at the end of the day cos Brad used to see them off Ooh they used to play all the Yeah. time, terrible! You see get a bit old like. ? Yeah. I must say it's natural like that, cats fighting and that. That's right, yeah. Never mind. Oh well it'll be Christmas soon thinking of having a party anyway, Christmas. Oh are you? Carol's having one, did you know? Yeah no yes well, she told us when she's a having one is it fifteenth, it is? Fourteenth. Oh how much ? But we'll have one after everyone's had a rotten Christmas. Ha! Not with I always not if you feel like it. When you gonna have one ? Yeah well I wasn't really here for my birthday this is my birthday one this is. There's plenty Yeah? What's that forty five or or thirty, thirty five innit? Oh God what is it! I feel in a horrible mood anyway! You'd have . Forty one, yeah this forty. Yeah I know, that's what I'm saying Yeah. even for by then. Yeah Yeah and sometimes you we go what we do down there this year. No. Well Carol said we won't be able to afford to part with him! So I want I did Do you want erm but I hope not. we used to go every year be go round to erm for a bonfire but the old boy was saying that he said they can't afford it next year. Did she mention that ? I'll be there next year. Something's bur , something's burning my love. I know I've just I said I'd make . What about . Yes old Betty is anyway your Ashley's seen the carpet I've done a little bit, yeah. he was tearing a And he was right bit off put it up one more notch with I mean to say you don't want no more like this Yeah. you start going like that. That's right then you Well I said dunnit? Yeah and it comes off. I said well perhaps Ell could go up then, cos I'm later ain't I? No he's alright for that other they ooh it's Glad I went over there. it's dangerous! You only op open it a certain way. Well how we gonna get that bit down then? Well you just have to hire another ladder. Yeah. To get that after easier way, it cost me what? Seven quid. Oh wha wow! five point three I'm sure mum's got a three inch . Oh well that ain't gonna help, you don't want ! You can have that there, so that's ri What are you gonna do about that? I've done as much as I could with that one but Yes but then I'm waiting, see I I got erm you know the big ones in the central root up there I've I've hired one of these there. Ah well that don't take Brian get up there, she said well he's taller than you, I thought No I ain't. he . Get over like I said she said that's enough like you've gotta leave some room for a But has that cost you about seven quid this one? It was What? twelve quid that's the ladder and as well. Yeah and scaffold. I had them all the week I mean a ladder I mean it'll cost you that much again Yeah. here, you can get one That's right I mean just do th both bits at the back and front at the same time, yes. Sort out the high bits together. Well why don't you get one of tho for Sunday Well yeah then? We're going to. But you have to pick it up Saturday though wouldn't you? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, but I suppose that way you should be thought about it, they're not They're not expensive, mind but Yeah but you can store them. I mean I I really could of a I mean I hired that ladder just to do about six foot either side. Well that's about how I am yeah I got three more feet. But you got that for your . Yeah, oh sure. After that lo lot Yeah. unless you're taking the chance. Yeah. See that ladder you've got, you know the bit you had this morning? Yeah. If you have the back half of that that'll be ideal. Yeah. I don't know, it's Yeah. Ken's old one innit? God knows! Haven't got a clue whose Cos old Ken used to have to an old ar aluminium one didn't he? Er, I think it was his dad's wasn't it? What about oh it was out there. Yeah I borrowed it , I borrowed that one, some time ago. Where is that ladder? We haven't got it. Well I keep telling you to move that away from the house I said talking about your rising crime, you're giving them a ladder to use as well! That's right mate. Your cos we put it in the paddock didn't we? Yeah. Yeah, I'll tell you what I did if I if that's ladder's out, I'd drop it down the back of somewhere. Yeah. Cos they've had people round and nicking things ain't they, out the back? God knows! Where? Oh the nicking out of the er sheds, lawn mo , lawn mowers and things. Is that right? Yeah Nick knows who he is or some something like that I would Well there's isn't gone then! It's in Yeah the garage. Well why they don't lock it! The garage is never locked! Yeah. Well . Well I don't suppose they'd be down here. No but I tell you what we ought to do, I keep saying to Geoff, if we locked the garage door, you know the big garage lock, they can't get out can they? They can, what you should do is just drop the ladder in out, in the inside that's all. All they gotta do is pull on a cable cos the door is locked Yeah but you can lock up can't you? the door is locked from the inside, but you just got to pull the cable and it overrides the lock dunnit? Yeah, they just pull upwards and Oh I was gonna say, if you could stop them from undoing that door, they wouldn't never get it out of there would they? Oh no. But I mean there's in front of it Yeah i yeah that's the luck of the draw , you know. Yeah, that's right. I think that's all it is isn't it? Yeah. Yeah that's a good idea put a on it and then they'll go They'll go somewhere else then. yes but I certainly wouldn't leave your ladders out though. No. Cos I mean that's stupid! Well after you just put it It's like I'd never put those steps in their shed you know, in case people sort of like Yeah. nosing about and they got, that makes Yep. it easier dunnit? Yeah course it does. Oh they wouldn't stop them if they wanted to get in but I mean it just makes it easier. Wonder why everybody's going that way,? I dunno mate, someone Nick's house cos I wanted to put a lot of stuff over my shed cos that garage is getting a bit congested Yeah. and he said no, someone's going round nicking out the sheds and Nick said I know who he is, I thought then? Yeah I mean . Well you They know they should on there. Yeah. You should be alright, cos you got the rottweiler next door. That old thing, it's just driving us crazy a a and they couldn't then you know, in their house? May and she she an old boy come in in the week, Carole had Friday afternoon off an old boy was knocking at all these doors and something to do with erm put a tape recorder in your house Yeah well Yeah. we're doing it I'm Yeah. doing it. Oh it's Yeah I won't swear. You can say Yeah. whatever you like. No, not , no it's out of a book. Listen here. Tha that is on. Yeah well that's fair enough anyway, but er He's got a Yeah but toe rag! What a ! say what you like otherwise you and er gotta do it. yeah but he sat outside Sally's and Carole said no I I I'm you know I can't do it, she said she wants someone a bit younger and she said Yeah I know. you ought to say you but she you know, that I'd for someone Yeah in their forties forty one. You have to the ages now. No you can't be forty one. and then May ringing up Carole Yeah. saying, there's someone sitting outside Sally's, and old boy, that's and I can't I can't resist is Nick there, is Jason there, is Brian there? No Pathetic! Brian,Bri he was i he he'd a a harmless little man. Oh he's looking for Was er an old boy is a eighteen looking for ain't they? they're looking for an old boy eighteen to twenty five who was like a carpenter or a plumber who's actually learnt a trade but he said the trouble is, he said twenty five I'm out Yeah. working, I shan't find him during the day, he said, they're off No. to get working aren't they? Yeah. And then you also want a solicitor don't you? Or you want a businessman Yeah. plus you think Yeah but don't you think though they're obsessed at the May . Oh! Of course they are I mean that it is if size of Geoff and he's , he hears a little noise He is headcase! I've gotta buy them a card! Well that man's, there is a tiny little ma , well he stopped me going out with Dorothy. We well she she wanted to Carole to ring up Ken! Whatever for? Cos he was sitting outside Sally's doing his book work That's right . I suppose obviously he most likely spoke Yeah. to you and he's doing the ground work, like that. Yeah he did, yeah. And she saying like he's waiting for his accomplice like and they've said they've broken in . Come on! I said can't you take no notice of me and phone . All it is Well they must be. All it is is they just want you to tape anything and ev , it's just voice patterns basically and the Yeah. and the way we use words so that Speak. they hundred years ago, although we use the same language as we do today Yeah. people never actually talked then, as they do now, they don't No that's right. you know, and he said like they want them on record for universities and things and some Yeah. college in London and they just do all sort of erm different area accents and things, I mean when Yeah. we use the same words we use them in different in the different area accents but i that's all it is. Well that's right innit, If he knew you use different accents. And all you do is telling You'll be different on there to what we are. there's a load of cassettes Yeah. in here, you just tape them on, bang them down who it was and when it was and then on Friday he picks them up and you get twenty five quids worth of vouchers from Marks and Spencers. Spencers for doing it. So what . And he wanted a businessman didn't he? Sixty one years of age who employs Yeah. five people cos we Yes. sent him up to Ron and he was saying God, he thought! I can't do it I shan't be here this week I'll be in Belgium. Oh Well and then everyone said ha go away! And then Tony said to me did you hear Winston bark last night? I said no. Someone must have been around if he barks, someone's around. That bloody thing's always barking. He'd bark at a bird won't it? What the hell's going on at the the Queue up Bartons all flipping day when she's in there. Well what's she frightened of like, I mean if she opened the door this My God if she's got if she's got that thing on a door, I should the ! Like what the old boy said that he'd friend up Oh yes the road he said, I said well I wish you would I know, he said I daren't go near that! he always bloody ! the window he's a brave old boy to go in. Well he went up right to the gate Mind you he said, cos he's coming back, didn't he? a bit of a nervous wreck his self weren't he? Oh he looked ever so frightened! He's I I I I've got this dog loose. But Aunty Carole says he should notice isn't he? Yes but this was a little old man! I've had a look at the , shouldn't onto Ken, isn't it . Well sh she practi she's that worried anyway cos erm I said to him well I won't do anything until I've spoken to Geoff, I'll go out Yeah. and speak to Geoff there, I thought well I'll go and make sure Yeah. I was quite convinced it was quite alright. I got the again And er he comes home at half past three and he then sort of told us what we'd got to do in it. Like I suppose really yo you do get these blokes whipping round and these Yeah. funny people but I mean you Carole said straight away he he Well if you'd have looked him Brian you could of told what sort of yes that's what she says. type of person he was, he was something like Geoff's dad. , if someone came to me and What have they got in there, what's so valuable? That's what Carole says as well, I said I know I know how you feel. Bet she wanna, she ought to be well insured. Yes s , tell them it's not that bad in there mate anyway. Oh yeah I shall, I don't want that ! Ooh you want to tell her when he goes when he leaves me in here with this door unlocked! Who? Geoff does, four o'clock in the morning! Just cos I'm leaving I've gotta . He never locks the door properly and anybody could get in and Ha! kill me in my bed! No they won't mate. I keep telling him, I said lock it up and post the key through Yeah. the letter box, he said what I've gotta come back Oh I know Oh it ri I forgot that! Joe! Oh didn't mean to do that! Jonathan! Don't you forget about bath time ! You don't want your shin pads do you? Probably. Well look how filthy they are! So! Well I wouldn't ta I'll scrub them up tonight if I get a chance. Don't worry. Ashley never scrubbed them very well did he? They're bloody filthy! You know what he told me on the way home? What? He said I was riding round and he got . Well he don't borrow them no more then! I was gonna let Chrissy borrow them. You shouldn't let Christopher he Chris no I don't need them now. He can't afford to look after them a bit better. Well he would. Is that money alright like that Jonathan? What is it? That's your dinner money. Yeah. But bring the change home! I will. Not them other little things cos they know you've got them at the school. What these? Yeah you don't need to take them as well do you? No oh oh. Can you also put that these. No I don't want to! Please,better . Them football boots stink! Cos my feet have been in them now, can you put these like that? Oh hang on a mo What? Where's your dinner money gonna go? And mummy ain't got an envelope so that'll have to Brilliant! do won't it. Take it out and . Great that's that done. . Coat? Try and keep your trousers clean Jonathan! If you're playing football hold them up! Not just round on the floor you know will you please? Alright. Well you're going a bit early aren't you? No! That was late when he was going . Oh alright. The leader will be there Lea Bob will? Yeah cos he doesn't come round when, he's not allowed. Why not? It keeps us too wet. Well at least if it's wet and dull you've got You've got to use it when your feet's all mucky. You can if you're not gonna use it. So for but the new trousers are gonna go ! Well perhaps his mum don't want you borrowing his brother's. We always ! bedroom. Yeah, can I get it then? Yeah. Do I have to take hers? You ought to have pay for it Jonathan, I'm gonna wind it up again! mum! Mum! You know I don't know why you don't have or ! today. I bet it does. Ah, I think it does. . What ? Yeah, do you like that ? Yeah a bit strong though. Oh, remember they told me , alright? Ian ! June ! Hello! How you getting on? Nice? Well I mean christmas presents. Well ha ha ha! These flares are short I'm in a right muddle really. Why? No you're not. I don't care. I didn't realize that was the time. Ha! What? Nothing. I thought well I'll just Look. . Well you know I do well I understand I love these. cos otherwise I think No he's got three days' holiday. Oh! Ooh this is pretty, who done that? I did it last year myself. Cor! Oh very nice. So that'll be number six as well I like this. can't flatten the ribbons. I shall have to get some bits and pieces Did that last year. and de see you if you can do for my table, like that. Course I will. Ooh that's lovely, I like it. Where do you get all your bits from? I think Sarah bought a lot of them and I had some and you know. That's lovely. I put it away, did that last year. Yeah I think if you put them in polythene bags and staple Yeah. them up. I ain't got a lot out, well I got a bit out. Ooh I rang the the club Oh did you? yep, we won't be getting anything, we're eighty pound behind. What? Anybody think that was a fortune wouldn't they? What altogether aye? Yeah. Nothing at all coming? No but I don't know about your things cos that that was already done before June's came as well. I don't Yeah so they perha they perhaps still come. Yeah. But they did say four to five weeks on the coat didn't they? Yes. And two two to four on your thing so Yeah. they could still come you know so Erm I've ticked coat cos I got some things together with it Yeah. and it makes you know innit a job! Yeah. This poor old girl can't go out for christmas dinner. Why? Well Marie's going in hospital. Well why can't she go out for christmas dinner? Oh well you know she's got that bad back? You told me she was having done. Did I? Yeah. Well Jodie wanted to come with us and I phoned up and they couldn't get her in so then she started saying well why don't you stay here mum,and all that, I said yeah just when it bloody suits her she wants you to cook her dinner, said she'd have been she should have I said she'd be prepared to pay it, I've already got her a seat she said Yeah. it's not bloody then! So we what is ha what is she doing? So she's not coming? So now Marie's got to go into hospital and have this done, don't know if she'll be out on time and er anyway and so they, you know, she said we've only got to face it mum, so she said well we can't come cos Marie can't face it I said they all went and got their way with you again she's just moved flat, June, they have she had this lovely facelift Michelle went and put all the borders round all curtains, rails, you name it she done it. Yeah. Well Geoff laid all new carpets, I think she's having a security vault there but Geoff Yeah. fitted it all out Don't have a go at me! she had our blue suite, such as it was, but she was going to come right flat on her back got his bedroom ready, for Ian all that, cos they do. We done it for Kerry and done it for her,Kerry left home sorted all the house out and bought all the stuff back and give the rest away! What? And that so I spent hours doing it done it for Marie and she's only gone and swapped with the nurse! And only cos Well i cos he's gotta be . Whatever does she need a big kitchen for? Her and that little boy? She's got a big round table. It's hers if he comes round . And Geoff, she said Geoff come round last night he said she is in such a muddle and it wants such a lot doing to it! Then won't she have the other girl But, but it's always so lovely! So pretty . Well I can't what, am I gonna go up the hospital then with her! She goes in the thirteenth and hopefully will be out the twenty third, I realize this is a big operation but I want Cheryl to come along anyway, book the table, stay with us, come with us If she couldn't make it which she'll be in so I do understand that Yeah. bring her plate home so she said she said that she don't know if she'll make it or even if she'll be home for christmas so erm I said oh well ! So, are you gonna go out now then? Yeah but she said wait for He wants to because he doesn't want to go anyway. Well who else is going from here then? Just us and the as I call them. They're alright. Well that ain't gonna be so good though, is it? Then there's Maria So I've gotta get and the she gotta invite . So you've gotta co you've gotta cancel that then, cos she might have to pay. There's six but it's u you can't help that can you? An emergency operation coming up. Yeah but you ought to let them know. I'm going to! I've she's only Or whoever is. just told me a few minutes ago! I said erm Well I should leave it till the weekend things could change. No, I don't want to do that I just said to her, I said you know, you can sort of erm ask Brenda she said I'm doing that I'm not on christmas day, would you? I said well frankly Cheryl with her record I'm not in I said she takes off when she pleases, she comes down when she wants something I said she doing me some good at christmas I said I do I quite understand that I said I do understand and I'm I've nothing nothing to do with me that's entirely up to you and she said and you wouldn't tell me what to do you won't change our minds, I said no I'm not trying to change your minds but you asked me what I would do I said and I think there and now she's She said and I don't care what you done,I'll do I'll do, I said she's got hundreds of where they smash the windows and break into so regularly. Whatever's the matter with the girl? Ju Jim said he was going to down here. So there's Julie, Ian and James aren't gonna go to the meal at all? She wouldn't let him come with us because she said that'd be our first christmas when we're altogether I said yeah that's the So for them really. Well why can't if John and Jim ain't gonna go Marie's not gonna go, why can't Cheryl still go and then Cos she's gotta stay and cook dinner for Jodie who's crept back Jodie and Shaun Marie who's crept back and Jodie. So she's gonna have a he heavy work There's . again? Again I've tried to tell her but he said, Geoff said we shall have a lovely time, we shan't go short I said I know that! But I said that But that's got nothing to do with it! That's just you again! I Well I have yo we got the cancellation I reckon cos That's mucked your plans up as well innit? Cos you Well all enjoy going together. I said well I hope you don't I'll tell you something, why don't you go and invite Carole and Brian? That's what she said. Well I would, I should go up there and have a word with Carole and Brian cos they sit on their own all christmas virtually! They do well last year they had egg and chips! They Yeah. they tried to go out for a meal, I don't know whether it was christmas day or boxing day down in and they couldn't get n in nowhere, I said well you wouldn't on a boxing day! I said to Cheryl please don't go and invite to come to yours for dinner now and because insult us cos we're not without him cos I'm prepared to go I look forward to that. Now I said to Ken that'll be your christmas present to me in nineteen years and that'll do me a treat cos that's really worth it. Yeah. I said you can bloody do it for me! I do it for you all year and that's for me. So is Gill going with you? Well I mean, going with Jim but obviously it won't be much fun for just for him so Oh no! Cheryl said invite him round there to be with Gill, which is better than Gill . Well a yeah it's nice for Gill really cos he don't enjoy it. But we're enjoy it. Then he'll want to come back. Oh well! You know. But then you can't in But I said Cheryl if we do sell these tickets to whoever and they think they round yours, I said they can, you know what she said no I don't want anyone else, I said that's fair enough. Yeah well then that's gonna be awkward really if you invite Carole and Brian and then just dump them off ain't it? Do you see what I'm Well I'll have to tell them because erm you know if Oh what a they're bringing plaster Oh what a shame! and we've gotta buy a can of oil but then there's and then Nick and Cheryl Yeah but they ma they make and her mother in there I don't know. You don't know when Nick's well her mother don't come christmas! Don't she? No! But she wouldn't mind coming along cos she likes him. What Oh they have to bring But I said to him, I don't care otherwise ooh can Cheryl can't make it, would you like it? I said they gotta say she come to us now mate Yeah and then if I can't bloody go, yeah that's right. And invite you she said well that's you're not going so they wouldn't get in anyway now and Well that's embarrassing for you to do that though won't it? So I said Well I I know where I am so I ain't gotta worry but boxing day we're going to well I was going to mum's I'll come up and see you boxing day though. Yeah. Like I normally do. Well we're going to mum's but Geoff said well I I hate them cos Bobby and Pam are going I think this year he said well if I get fed up doing that evening he said I'll come home early. Yeah. So I said oh fair enough, I don't mind. Yeah. That's entirely up to him what we do but I shall be up for dinner you know and sort of see you and then if Geoff wants to leave early, we will. Well I think the only difference is I say to her I hope you're still cos she said to me you can come, I said I'm coming straight round yours christmas day, I'm not coming home waiting for you to come back, you don't come till half past ten! I said and that's if for me I said parting company if we go to dinner we stay together! Yeah. The best of the cos she yeah she'll say we'll just go and get changed and we'll be back, they all fall asleep this and that and you know they don't want to come out! Oh that's no good is it? But So but you can go straight for the meal, straight round hers. and then is she coming back to you at all? And they're supposed to be coming boxing day. We will they? Well that's what Ken said he said will they stay again Marie's going Yeah well even if they came sort of late afternoon, turn up about fiveish and had a a bit of tea and then spent the evening with you that won't be too bad would it? But, June I can't tell you how that baby's dominating their life I mean Well that's ridiculous! I said to her if she didn't make it the first time, let her lend you my hammer she said don't you talk like that and don't you let e Geoff hear you! Well anyway Friday night he slept all night Saturday night he had her up all day! He says get her What's the matter with it? and he talk, he loves, he likes me now, cos he never did and he says he . Well what's does he he just shows her how to home late and he goes she wa he watches her go upstairs Woooh! Come on! You feel insecure don't you and there she is and look come off it! She ge it's really getting me he watches her. Well innit ridiculous! So he I better go in a minute. Last night she trotted to bed, and he did sleep all night long, but he didn't go till half past ten cos Marie don't put him to bed. Well you see children need routine really, you need to get into a routine, when you get into that But he yet! Well he wouldn't be would he? She's been up since six and he is up Yeah and that sleep all day and night. Well that's gonna wear her, that's gonna make her ill. I said Oh I said oh you did use my hand blender, I did leave it for you then she Well what she you know I said But it's silly to let a baby rule your life ain't it? I mean or anyway, it isn't her baby is it? I know it's her grandson but Right next thing you ask her to stand in the middle of the road and under a train and she would do! I can't tell you what's she like with him! She don't put him down for a minute, oh he feels insecure and he's left his mummy and goes love his granny and come on your granny, I think oh carry on! Well she had erm Sam one night didn't she? She put him through it. Oh I bet she did, I bet she didn't treat him like that! She didn't and she got two hundred pound Friday night. Did she really! pay her a hundred pound a week! Good heavens! Yep cos it's two of them. Well if I'd have known, I'd have had it! Well and she put him through the hoop,nurses him. No but you don't you don't do that sort of thing. And I I handle but he had a wha you know I wouldn't let him run over me but No she's walking the through it and stuffed them in the ground! She goes Well then that's her fault isn't it? What can you do about that? I bet she's gotta get irate and ring me back, tell Geoff what I said, I thought well I don't care, she's speaks it and I'll just say to her quietly well, you know I said now Marie's done this to Geoff after all his hard work and he's helped his worry anyway then defies him, he begs her to leave and she defied and she's moved. Well I think really if he's if he's I will do it. gotta say to her and now you gotta stand on your own two feet everything we do you keep changing so Well I've never ever run Well look any of them down . No. Michelle hasn't done it frequently but i you know I would never even talk to me like that Sarah the little erm madam that she is, just like Kerry, which they are! Well they do get like that Geoff at that age don't they? you know and I've never never said anything about them No. but today I did you know when she said to me though, what would you do? Well that's a disappointment for you Val isn't it when you get ? Well I said to Marie you know it just got round The whole thing! you know, and they're always , she said well get on , yeah I know we do but I said I just don't want you know Because let's face it Val she is a type of person, you get her in a party or anywhere you know you're gonna enjoy yourself. Yes I know she thinks says things you know she embarrasses me at times but I know you know if she's there you're gonna have a good time. Yes, that's right. You know erm and I if she if she goes to emba cos I think she does it for the purpose really to people Yeah. she tries to embarrass Oh yeah. them you know Yeah. I try to ignore her, if I can wha Or start laughing. Yeah when she tries to d Yeah. Like last time at the party well I just ignored her, I just looked the other way well Caroline she well She'd want to be like him. Do you know what? No way! She she told Alan to me Ooh! I think it's best if you go Alan so he said well shall we ask the children what they think, so he brought all the kids down Oh no! he said what do you think Ben? So he just stood and so they said and what about you ? Then she cried so she said, what about you Sam? So she said I was so proud of him, he said yes dad I think it would better for us all if you left she said I was so proud of him. Proud? And Val told Cheryl so now it's and er I said I think that's awful! Anyway he's took gone on holiday with them. Good old Perry! That's it, I'll be going on holiday there. But it's safe They've gone to Fiji and then Singapore and America. He did tell me they were going. And then Australia. He He's been to France. My God! That's a nice area and it's a house Yeah. that's just the area he's in. Yeah. I said mine are getting it three times! Yeah, I know and he said she said my sister said if I can't afford it, she'll pay but I'll she said and I was so proud of Sam! Big bossy!! Ah they're bossed them around all their life I was proud of him, just standing . Cor I wouldn't have been proud! You mustn't walk away you know cos I shan't be ab you're supposed to be on my tape! Oh,talk about. Well it don't matter what we talk about, we can talk about something naughty if you like! Have we go have we got to say who we are Margaret? That's right. No Jean, you ain't gotta say who you are nothing like that bye ! Bye! Have a nice day. You think they'd be a bit . Yeah I know. The bike went on the side of it. Well that's a good job it went on Yeah. cos ahead. Got it all on the which is fine. See you soon. Yeah, oh yeah oh it's alright for some innit! Well! someone said Yeah, that's right. His family Whatever's all them people for to , ooh! Why did they keep coming? I dunno . Ah ho! Seventy seven P my shoes have gotta . Well now how did it get in Well honestly it's terrible isn't it? They get worse don't they! no. I'll go straight to my and I do with some coffee. Yeah and . Makes you feel a bit Yeah. downcast really don't it? Yes it does had enough again. You're not sort of good in it ooh look at washing blowing Sue! It's blowing high isn't it,shirts on the line. Well I got some sheets and that. hot got those on Friday morning. Have you? Yeah Helen but I got them, Did you really? Well I say I'm going to get a boiler Well I've got for . I might bring my take my cotton things in before I go peach. Yeah it soon turns up. Yeah and then that by the time I get back about fourish Yeah, I suppose you have to. they're damp! Do you know I could go out on mine, couldn't you? So's mine. You can reach a all overgrown. See they look so tidy but they oh I don't know how they keep them like it! Nor do I! Do they? Mm. Did Jenny and have dinner with them all? Probably she got her yes she did. Ooh crumbs! I went I bet! I bet Yeah well I don't take a lot a notice of Dorothy on that score because she go she says, I don't know why I do it! But she always told me cor she does! Yeah. That lady's gotta big job doing that! Yeah. Always looks good. Yeah. Look where the I bet than mine some some of mine are getting old and you can't get them clean. And they get a bit, you know. They look a bit well grey looking don't they? Yeah I'm not sure what she does but they're all lovely and clean theirs not as good as . No. That gets your things a I'd cos er sometimes my tea cloths they've still got little stains on them. Yeah mine have. They're clean but they're Yeah then you get something Hello. like that. You can't There's get the stains out there's a thing on one of my cloths I've got some on And I bet it never come out. No, I'd have to sort of wash it a little bit so I Yeah. put it in sort of Yeah. like up to there. Yeah I find that oh Val they've got some ha Christmas trimmings up. I'm not a bit worried yet. Jonathan wanted us to put ours up the weekend and I thought well Did you? Well I don't really put I suppo I usually put them up before birthday. Yeah. Ooh that's Geoff's mummy's birthday this week. eighty four. Well I got Geoff's mum's and Susan's Well I skip that every time ! Then Ron's who else, someone else is in December I can't think who it is. ? Yep. What a horrible day to have a birthday! Is a bit it could though. Oh not him! Mr . Yeah Well did you? Did you know you was gonna have him on the twenty No. fifth? No should have been the fourteenth of January. Oh so you had him early That's what they said. then! That's what they said. Oh you had him quite early didn't you? , I'm sure. They never know properly anyway. I'm sure no one 's caught her. Nope. Oh that cabinet in there Sue look! Ooh . Ooh also don't it? Oh yeah I walk down and she was just coming down here. Oh was she alright? No too bad, I said how are you getting on Val sort of tired I suppose? She said I have my good days and my bad days, said I had bad day yesterday not too bad. Yes don't take a lot Now that they've gone back to school she has a bit of a job with the I've gotta go you know, I said we'll have so many people round talking you know she said he'd got a terrible ! How? Said the Yeah. gotta over his ears gotta to say have you . Yeah. She said and then all of a sudden she'll come back and her friends waiting around so they Yeah. said could they help out a little bit for teachers you know? Yeah. And she said he got up and went off and to get things she said he he's not too bad now, he said it's getting better. No that's good, and yet prob yeah probably with his friends going That's it, yeah. you know But she said as it's so terrible when a little boy her. She'll do that for a long time, I bet. And then she said and then I think used to try you know? Yeah. She said and I've once or twice I've found a we've gotta have that, but then what am I gonna give Ashley? She said and Yeah then that hits me, you know? Yeah it hits you like a ton of bricks Yeah. I should think. I think, you know. Yeah it's not very nice is it? It's awful! It's not often they come back from work she said they feel I can't, not yet, she said I could never my housework and that's too much yeah she likes to do She wants to give herself everything at once, you know? Well some people Yeah. you know,bi would rather be flowing about and you know? Yeah. But if she feels like she wants extra time I think she ought to allow herself extra time That's right yeah. don't she? Yeah. Well it's a big thing losing your son at that age isn't it? Yeah it is yes and like she said see cos he was you see Was he? Yes, she said he'd always got the music on loud and sort of full of messing about you know so Yes. she says he's really sort of quiet and Yeah. well he would be . Trudy. Do you know Mrs ? Mrs Did you? Yeah. Yeah? Why what's the matter with her? Well I heard she was in hospital. Oh my God! Yeah. What's she got cancer or something? Well I dunno I mean everybody jumps to that conclusion but Oh my God! I dunno but she must be something serious Oh how terrible! Yeah, cos she's ever so nice Yeah cos she's a nice person. a lovely lady weren't she? Yeah. You know? Yeah cos she used to teach here in the school Yeah. a little while didn't Yeah. she? Oh! We want out the back door ? Yeah oh dear! Makes you wonder don't it? I've got to Ooh I thought he was a flipping turnover that! That was me. Who did ? I did. Did you have a good at school? Yeah. What've you done? Done erm we done erm Did you have a lot to finish off? No not really erm we had to do all about guards. What guards? Egyptian guards. Oh! You know Uliusfor Haurus all that Oh yeah. yep er what else did we do? We did erm what else did we do? Tables work. Oh you like doing them don't you? Mm. Is maths your favourite subject? Yeah no drawing art. You like art as well. Yeah I like erm Friday's art as well. What is your worst thing? Er er er handwriting. Yeah but your handwriting's a lot better. Ooh I hate it! It takes me so long! How's James getting on now? Is he getting on better? No, not really. Oh dear. John's the worst though. Still the same is he? Yeah. You play with John a bit more now don't you? Yeah. When he when we get when I've done about two pages guess how much he's done? Dunno. About two lines! Oh dear! Right and when Mr said to everybody right, read out your stories and he didn't know John was so slow and so when he erm asked John to read his out, cos everybody had to read it out John goes when he goes reasons for writing er what is John's called? Oh yeah the magic potion I was in my lab when a big bang went off it was very nossy cos John he couldn't spell noisy! Because the bang had made a very loud nossy! Well don't be horrible! No this is what he said. Bet he read it out, I know Is it? Well that's what he said oh no when he went to sleep I did I'd done about a page this is what I read out, I went Professor Plop and the Time Machine. Oh! I was in my laboratory when aha I've got it! I said well you see I was making a time machine and all I needed was one more microchip and what was sitting right up under my nose? Yep, you guessed it, a microchip. Yeah, go on then. So I put the microchi chip in place the time machine was ready the next day I put one of them down so I typed in ancient Egypt and then I put oh and by the way I wa I'm called Professor Plop because when I landed in ancient Egypt there was a big plop! Oh oh! Yeah? I never knew Egypt was so big! When I met Tutankhamen I thought his clothes were a bit dull so I thought I'd give him a shell suit yeah, maybe a baseball cap some Reebok pumps and a . Ah ah. Mind you, he wasn't very pleased though. Oh no, and there was a I mean . What is it at home then? Oh Lemmings and that computer game I wanted. Oh yeah? Yeah. Is that an expensive one? Er it's about five pound. Oh someone might be able to buy you that for Christmas. Yeah I did last Christmas. What's that? , not on the thing I'd make the Bushwackers. What's that? They're W W F men Jake the Snake. Well where are they? The big they have things. Erm that's upstairs. then? What you mean, where are they? You took them home. Yeah well I put it upstairs. Whereabouts? In your bedroom. Oh I never see it! What near the computer? I don't know where I put it actually, but it is in there. Oh. Well go on then, what else you gotta tell me? What in school? Well I didn't do much really I suppose we did a little bit more in the afternoon. What do you do in the afternoon? Er we had Julian the Weak Who got that? Ben he's doing Is he going ? No I'm the only one, me and Kelly are the only ones on our table and I think it's gonna be Kelly this week. Why? Cos she's worked hard. Well why ain't you then? No I mean she did a lot of work and all. Why don't you try harder then? Yeah but I'm not gonna do that much! We did a po a sheet and a half of A four that big! Of what? Paper! And what a story or something? No writing! About Egypt. How many did you do then? Only did ha three quarters she did nearly two! Ergh! Got a bit of a cold. Yeah I know, so has Pete, did you hear him? Yeah he's going okay I'll be up in a minute love. Almost like he's dying! Cor! He goes, I think I'm about to die! Hang on a minute have their tonight. Hey, you know Whizz the dog? No. Oh alright, when you yell hup! When you erm pound your chest she jumps up and hugs you. I know. And if you say down! She goes and licks your feet and if you say in your bedroom. mi what? In his Simon's play on the computer. Whatever would he do on there? Er the dog poop. Oh he didn't again! Three loads! No! He said I've got a new system now I'm going and what is that then? He goes I pick it up in a bag and chuck it out the window! Oh how disgusting! I go mm urgh! And he uses What about the same bag! I thought ooh, what if you put your hand in the wrong place urgh urgh! I was thinking urgh urgh urgh ! Ah how that's horrible! Right cor he's got ever so nice computer in he? He's what? His computer's ever so nice. I haven't seen it Jonathan. You never? Cor! No. You should go up there one day cor oh. No thank you, I don't want to. No and just have a look at the computer I mean the printer that's about half a metre long. Is it? Yeah it's massive! Cor! Tell you one thing right Maybe his dad doesn't know that does that. Yeah I reckon so I reckon that's how it got outside on the floor! They ain't you wanna be careful when you're walking down that park it's Yeah. all over the . Just in case he chucks some out. Makes mummy feel sick. So do cor! Right on mine I can play on this computer, he said we'll play Diddy Paint What ever's that Not Diddy Paint, it's a and he goes ready calcu and he's showing off he goes right, I'll show you what it does when he put on the calculator and it Yeah. shows you a little tiny picture of the calculator and when you press one button it presses the button on the thing and then he showed me the clock Yeah. er then he showed me the alarm and the he sho right he's got file of everybody ain't got one of us though. You know that lady up the road? You know opposite the council houses? You know? What ? She lives down there in that nice house co opposite the hou council houses. What the big house right down there. I can see yeah, opposite the council houses he said right they got have they got some cows? Yeah. Yeah and bulls? Yeah. Ah yeah and he's got a file of that house. What do you mean about? Well I reckon they've got a computer like it. Well what does it say on this file then, about the people? It just says, sort of like, her age, her name right and on Simon he typed I said can I do Simon then? He goes, go on then, I pre got it on Simon I reckon it must of thought about it do you know why? Well why? When I pressed Simon nothing come up! Oh God! He goes sorry nothing in here Cor it's ever so nice though it's one of them Amstrads with that big bit on the bottom, that square base. Oh yeah, what is Julian's one? That's just a normal Amstrad cor nothing's like his. He reckons he's gonna sell his. Yeah and you know what he wants. What? Apple Mac. Who does? boy Simon. He won't be getting that. Oh I bet he does. He won't Jonathan. Why not? Cos his dad said so. Oh Hello Fudge! And how are you today? I thought you was gonna play football today. No. I got all your things ready and then you didn't play! Matty said if you play football I'll nick your Hulk Hogan. Who said that? No I knew he was joking, he always do says it. What does he want you to play with him? Yeah he doesn't have nobody to play with. Well no but you both yeah but you wanna play football if you want to Jonathan don't you. Yeah I will. You know play football on the Well Lee won't play football either. Why don't go today? Ha forgot his kit mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm mm If you wanna play it, you play it, you know don't let Matthew put you off. Doo doo When's the next match? Er I dunno I hope it's only shorties, so I can get in the team! Well you're obviously are not quite good enough, are you? No I can tell you one thing though Matthew isn't very good! And he's a naughty boy as well! Yeah. Is he naughty in class? A bit. Is he in your class? Yeah he's the eldest year five. Is he? Yeah he's ten. Is he? Yeah. When's his birthday then? Er August I think. Oh he isn't much younger than you then really is he? Oh he is!the end of August no, it might be the ne oi! She weren't! She was! She didn't! Jonathan! Take her out please will you! Pick her Ay? up and take yourself out. Come on! Come on! Out which door? That door make sure! Come on . I'm not doing that again! Silly dum cat! Come on I know. Okay. Whe when are we having tea? Won't be long. Right the what else do I want for Christmas, er well Smack in the ear hole! No! Er let's think, ooh what do I want? I know there's something that I wouldn't mind. Oh that's right you said you wa wanted that Lego set didn't you? Oh yeah I want that Lego set from you then from Fudge and Father Christmas I'd like a man each. I thought you wanted that headphone set? What headphone set? Oh yeah! Well you can't have everything I'll have that from Father Christmas and one of these from Fudge I'd like the ultimate warrior from Fudge or Hacksaw Jim or Macho King or Robert. anything in other words? Well I'd like the ones that are crossed off. Can I have a pen? I need to cross some more off Well why don't you just say you don't mind any of them? No cos some of them I don't like! I've got him I don't like him, don't like him, don't like him, don't like him don't like him, don't like him, he's okay, don't like him, urgh he's rubbish! Well I tell you something you don't wanna spend all your Christmas money do you? Cor no! You know what you wanna do with it? What? Put it away and then and er save it for that trip. for your holiday, yeah. And then you'll want some for the holiday, when we go just to Cromer won't you? Yeah Cor! Can't wait till we go on that trip to erm oh where is it? Meaple Meaple Can't wait! Why can't you wait? You'll have to. Oh! Why? I wish these chips would get done cos everything else is cooked. Mum? Mum you know Nightmare? Right on one of them this bloke it says he hypnotises them and he goes when I click my fingers you will become my servant and he's about to click his fingers like that when somebody comes and rescues them. Oh. And then, if somebody else clicks their fingers they be tha they become their enemy and the enemy if they click their fingers he becomes their enemy. Mm mm mm What's for tea mummy? Lasagne. Is it done? Will it be fun! Cor they look I told you one of them didn't have much in! Which one What you on about? No! That's cos I've I've filled that's all. Hoorah! Which one can I have? Whichever one you like. Can I have the biggest? You are greedy sometimes Jonathan! Yeah Ahhh my Ooooh! I don't know what time to expect dad tonight. Urgh I hate sneezing! My name was Jonathan and my name is . You know you gotta go Grandma on Saturday? Oh oh! No you don't sound like that cos she was nearly like and Grandma. Yeah. Not like this I wish I could take one of my mates. Well you can't not at Grandma's can you? No I mean to play if we played outside. My mates would love it. Well no Grandma's gonna have you all day. Oh what for dinner? Or I might be home a lot earlier than you think. Can you buy me a pressie? What? Well I don't think so No a Dinky car I meant. I don't know I shall have to see. But if you do buy me something with style! Something fast. Something with style? Something something that's brown, with flames down the side or a stock car yeah a stock car. You don't want a lot do you Jonathan! No I never want much! No I know you don't realise I don't think how much I found out something. What? My What? He said he got one of these for two ninety nine. Where'd he get them from? He said he I said did you get it from Bramson Toys, he goes yeah I mean oh no I didn't no, no no cos he knew what I was gonna say I said did you get it from W H Smith? He goes yep,na na no I didn't get it from there Oh where'd get it from? He goes, where'd I get it from? Cor I can't think them Oh that's it, Westgate! I thought, you little liar! And now you He told me at Westgate. Yeah it doesn't now though right, and and erm what's his name? Er, Mark, he's a liar too. Jonathan, don't talk like that, it's not very nice! Well he is! Can you just get out the way please! Okay is that better? Can I sit here tonight? Well no! Please? It's dad's place. Please cos I like sitting here. Well yeah I suppose you can, and dad can sit there . And on my knee? Well it, yeah but will you put on on the end of that ta at right at the end there, so they're out the way. Yeah I'll put them there yeah Dinner won't be long now, I just can't get them back in . Who would you say is the oldest out of the girls? Erm Sarah is. Boys? Daniel ? No! Who is it? Darren . How old is he then? He's older than Sarah. Is he really? He was born on the same day as Sarah but he's an hour earlier. Oh who's been telling you all this? Oh Darren. Do you like Darren? Yeah he's okay and guess who's ? Erm Er , oh yeah! Who? Oh yeah! And I'm making my own way home. Yeah I'm gonna meet you up there. Phew! We missed the before! God I'm not sure! So I had a guess. So what do you say? I'm going ah own way home I thought God I hope mummy's making me, letting me go on my own way home. Yeah well what I'm gonna do, I'm gonna meet you at the village hall. Oh money . They'll be other people coming won't there? Fay will I should think. Yeah, Fay, Sarah, Daniel , Jason Oh no ! er Kelly isn't coming! No she's going tomorrow isn't she? Is she going with you? I'm not going at all. Ahhh! Not this time. Oh! Can't you come but there's Mr asked me to come Wednesday when you went. Who's Oh! is in your group then? Andrew, Darren Yeah. Na Natasha Elizabeth Ooh my goodness me! Can I just Cor God! move the chairs round? Mm. Elizabeth any of your own mates? No what you mean, like Luke? Yeah. No Dee doo dee dee So how many people are in your group? About seven. Well you isn't said seven! No I can't think of the others. What about James or someone like that? No! Who are you actually with though? What ? Mrs . Who? Mrs . Oh you like being with her don't you? Yes she's the best. I like Mrs No, Mr she likes me you're gonna filthy! I hope Ben is. I don't, cos he's naughty at John's. Yeah but he's my mate. The sausages are done, I'd better turn that oven off. I'd say I've got five best mates Christopher Ashley Lee Yeah erm oh who was that other one now, I can never remember his name?er well not John! Oh John's alright. Yeah he's not best friend though, he's a pain! Every morning he goes Jon-ee-than ! Alright Jonathan! And he comes running towards me with his arms out! I thought, oh my God! Right and when he gets near I go, oh my God! And John goes ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! Don't be silly Jonathan! Well he's o he's weird! Well perhaps he is a little bit weird but don't be silly! These chips are hot! Well they've just come out of the chip pan Ooh! I should they are hot! I didn't know though did I I thought you'd let them cool! Can I have Lasagne? Can I have mine out the tub? Why and you leave it in the tub. Yeah probably maybe ooh it's a bit burnt! No it's not burnt! Well this bit is. That's the top bit, that always goes like that. What this bit? Look, it's lovely! Mm are you getting yours out? You don't want to take yours out. No, I'll get mine out I've got a little dip in the corner! Have you? No I mean When are we going, Wednesday? Yeah. Mr isn't gonna be there tomorrow. hasn't got to do has he? Dunno haven't got Mrs . has. Yeah. Do you like the ? or Mrs . Do you want a chip? Only a few. How many do you want? That'll do only a few. We'll leave the rest for dad. That'll do. Cor blimey! Ooh ooh ooh! Before I forget I'll put them in the microwave. Hot! What's hot? Everything can I have tomato sauce please? Urgh! What? You ain't putting tomato sauce on lasagne surely? No, on my chips I like it with cheese Ooh it's got kidney in! Don't be silly! Oh they're onions I could of sworn they was kidneys. You are Jonathan, sometimes. Go go go go go go go go go, dee dee ahhh! Oh oh! That's enough! Oh God! Don't keep saying that! What, God? Yeah it's not very nice! Sorry. Alright. Is it nice? Mm I suppose I could take my computer down grandma's. It's not six o'clock! Already? I'll have a look. it is. Yep Urgh! This is the what mummy usually has when I go out with the meal at work. Do you? Mm. What Italian? Yeah. Mm Are you gonna go this year? No. Why not? Cos dad'll be working I think and Miss Mrs isn't going and Mrs can't go, I might as well go. What day is it? Usually? Erm I think it's a Wednesday night. Well I was gonna say you could've dropped me off at grandma's. Can't can't can I? Why not? Cos I don't usually have a car, somebody usually takes me. Oh. And anyway you've gotta get up for school in the morning. No I mean when dad gets home he could pick me up So what time is it then? About seven. No, dad'll be home. Oh. I'd rather go out with dad anyway. Can we go to the soon? Please? I dunno. If I can do go What? Well there's two things I'd like I can't have both of them I thought I'd have a prawn and cocktail Prawn cocktail Jonathan! Why do you say prawn and? Prawn and cocktail. Prawn cocktail! Oh I've not got a prawn and cocktail or them little tiny fish nanny had. Oh whitebait? Mm found them nice. You didn't did you? Mm or the soup. Or the soup. Oh. That was lovely! They do a mean mushroom! Do they all talk at school like that? What? Like what? Mean mushroom! No some of us do though. Aunt Maggie videoing you the re-match? Yeah, hope so I hope so. Did he say he'd come round here on Sunday? Mm? Did he say he'd come round? Mm. have a look. Yeah. He don't normally play with him do he? Yeah. Oh. He wanted to come round tonight, I thought, no! Please! Please Mrs say no! She said okay, you'll get a good hiding when you come home! He goes, okay we got round the corner and bumped into his dad! He goes, where are you going? He goes round Jonathan's, he goes oh no you're not! I thought And what did you say while all this was going on? I kept quiet mum cos his mum's quite big and his dad's quite big. Well his dad's very big! He was Oh. in the RAF. Was he? Mm, used to be. What does he do now then? Dunno. Oh well he wouldn't hurt you. Oh he's Cor! I tell you one thing I wouldn't like to be him! Up and down a dark alley, at night Cor, flipping scary! Cor he's every so big! About six foot five! Is he really? Yeah! Cor he's massive! Well Matthew don't take after him. Why? Cos he isn't no taller than you. He is, he is a bit about quarter of an inch. Oh. What colour eyes have I got? Brown. What colour eyes have you got. Brown. What colour eyes has dad got? Blue. Mum? Yes. Could I have green eyes? Yeah. If you had blue and dad had brown. Well greeny tinge I suppose, yeah. No I mean green. If two people have got blue eyes the mother and father the children always have blue eyes I think If the mother's got brown and the father's got brown they don't have a blue eyed child. Don't they? No. What's that noise Jonathan? It's the tape recorder. Oh makes a funny noise don't it? Yeah all we Cor I love my tea! Couldn't live without it. Didn't eat all your dinner today? No. I thought you'd have liked that cheese and egg pie? It's okay I prefer pizza. Yeah you can't always eat pizzas Jonathan! And lasagne and shepherd's pie. Oh. Can you remember when Steven put that salt on my dinner. Yeah Who's going with Mr ? Mm? I said who's going with Mr ? Jason and Tom Liam and Matt probably and I don't know the rest. friends though isn't there? Yeah a tiny bit more. That's very nice Jonathan. Mm oh ha oh! Couldn't eat a bit more than that. Cor, nor could I! It's filling innit? Mm. Very filling. Here's Daddy. Oh you're are you? We couldn't wait no longer! No I've been . Ooh ooh ooh! Ah smells a bit spicy what is it? Ah bread! Don't worry you'll . Oh pardon me! Another job ooh oh you've had yours then. Mm I've just had it. Might as well take that, you've got plenty there Oh, how you been then? Okay. Alright? You got my message did you? Yeah. We're down Pete's. Well yeah you know go Mondays. Well yeah but I thought you went Monday mornings. No. Monday afternoons. No I didn't realise that well I mean Well I had to come all the way back didn't I. Why? Because I don't like his van. Yeah but what's the matter? I couldn't, you can't really see on it. Oh. I couldn't see, I ain't got my glasses on me. Oh I see oh. I'd have a guess. Yeah but I've gotta make so I had to come all the way home! I'd come to that they Well I've made appointment for Wednesday so bloody well keep that! Dad, I wonder why Yeah tape flickers? No. Your voice. No. You need to change them batteries, the batteries isn't very good at all! No I don't think it's that, I think it's cos it's getting near the end of the tape. No it can't be cos we've only just just turned that one over! No we haven't. We did. That's near the end of the tape. Is it? Yeah. Oh good! Is the tape ? Yeah yeah. I taped I want you to check it for me, I taped me and Sue walking home cos I have to do around the school you see. Yeah. So I can do it walking home can't I? Yeah. And I've had it on the . Ken He's on holiday for three days. Oh is he? Oh. I think he's getting his . Yeah no I didn't realise he weren't there said to see you tomorrow, they never said nothing and John said what's the matter with Ken? I said oh I don't know. John ? Yeah so he said er what's the matter? John ? Yeah, said I dunno, said he isn't here today But er Yeah well Pam says he's got three days holiday. Oh Can you come and stay ? I didn't hear a word you said. What? . What's that Terry Waite that's it. accident ooh ooh! in the . And he wonders why he's got a That's right he does. Something wrong with his he's likely to. Yeah. He's on booze Saturday afternoons and Saturday night Sunday afternoon lun Sunday night, I said my God! Still with the money he saved he's got enough . Well he said he got through fifty quid. Well that's quite some money, fifty pounds worth of That's what he said Well he can put bought as much as we're gonna buy you can drink yourself silly for thirty one. Yeah I know. No I thinks that sounds silly. What? Can you get can you get too oh there's none in it I like shandy too. That's hot! Nice. Pete's gone down to the shop and got yourself a bottle whisky. has he really? Makes the look nice dunnit? Well he's got a cold, a very bad cold. Oh yeah. Gotta bring him up to scratch . Yeah. Ooh it's a terrible cold innit? He has really got a bad cold. Yeah. Yeah. Sounds awful! He was a choking and a coughing! He was No he wasn't coughing. He went Is that enough? Yeah that's fine. Is that alright ? Yep wonderful! Right, done it! Oh mum what have you done to it? you don't want here are . Oh alright, give it to them. Even my . No don't wipe your dirty one! I'll get a clean one Just turn that water off for us Jonathan? Oh why? Don't mess about with that! Where? From where? The boiler cupboard. That's better. Oh wait, let's see what you gotta tell me today. It's been a lovely day. I beat you to it. Yeah well I couldn't so I had to come over and and buy them a flipping new one! Ooh I number again, I'll take it out in a minute. Yeah. Oh no And er she said well, I said I'm ever so sorry but she's anyway so I thought oh God! That's a step in the right direction. Yeah. I rang Yep Dee dee dee doo doo . You can't, you don't go through to that office at I go further on Yeah. but they are amalgam is it Yeah amalgamating, with another firm so the paper work probably has got lost So I she said she was gonna ring me back, but you see I haven't been here this afternoon so I'll perhaps ring again tomorrow. Okay. Well I couldn't do nothing about it really, she said well that'll be sorted out in she said I'll treat it, we're now sorting it out today what we're doing. Mm. So I said well I hope it's not gonna be too long I said cos we're not a a very big firm and I said, you know, we want the money! She said well I should imagine that's what's happened the paper work here has got muddled up with the other. Oh. So she said I'll do I'll sort it out straight away for you well I had a phone call at eight o'clock this morning, who the hell that was from, I don't know, I was out the washing line I come flying in but I never got it, and nobody's rung. . Not unless I get a few phone calls from been here today. Yeah. But you must get that portable done cos then that reaches over there I can No it wouldn't would Mm. it? I bet it do I bet it will! Well they go for it round to the erm cemetery. Yeah well that'll be ever so handy, well you can try it can't you ? What way down now? To the cemetery? The cemetery round St. Andrews. Yeah. Flipping heck! Would do then Well if we go past services. Yeah, mum's house is over there. Yeah don't go very well the other way we said, didn't we? I've I dunno why. it was half way outside . Well Tell you why too bad. Oh. And guess what? I can tell you why. The other one never used to, the other one used to get as far as Ken's house and fail. Did it? Yeah. You must get it sorted out though, after Christmas Yeah. there isn't much point now but We can get right down to nearly. Well you see He'll Why not? He'll be breaking up the twentieth and how long you on holiday, fortnight? No I thought you had a long Christmas break? Well not i . We don't break up till the twenty eighth. Yes you do, you break up on the twentieth! Christmas on the twenty fifth. Oh. Christmas Day, yeah precisely! Christmas Day is the twenty fifth! Do you want a cup of coffee Geoff? I bet this bit I'll have it after my tea. cos got muddled up, then you know what he said? He said we'll have the twi quiz thing, we have the quiz thing on the twenty eighth. Who said that. Mr . I think he means the eighteenth. No he probably means the twentieth. I'm just going in here About the to have this, No he said the la Jonathan. he said the last day yeah Oh I hate these silly men. Mm. This one I swapped with Christopher. Yeah. This one I swapped with Christopher. Yeah And this one I swapped with Christopher Yeah. He's got a little cloak. Tell your dad what time we got up. What time did you get up? When? This morning. This morning. That was last nights. Yeah. That's it. I'm going up stairs okay? Go on then. Yeah well I've I've just done that. Two. So I just put you on it. What about me? Well you are on it, you twit! Oh. See I got Sue on it as well. You can't get them back. Erm, what else can I put there? What? We was at home Put having tea My aren't there. then what can I put? No good on there, you told them off. Walking from work. Yeah but that that is the Sunday thing that's how I get muddled up with the date, but that's on the same tape you see? Yeah. Aha. Oh I'll put that Yeah go on what was you gonna say? Oh I was just saying about that turkey thing and you said we'd never eat er Frozen. Mm I was saying when he worked at Smedley they used to can up baked beans for er Smedleys themselves Tesco's Yeah. All sorts of different people he said I would never ever buy any beans he said cos of this chappie who used to work they used to unless you change over the tin or something he used to spit in the tins. Urgh how disgusting! Every time I said, my God! Every time he said he said I never had a ba tin of baked beans my God! Oh that's absolutely disgusting! Yeah he said ju that's it you just don't know what you buy in there. Cor I couldn't le urgh! Quite! Oh and we eat a lot of baked beans I hope he don't work there still urgh! won't know. What what time shall I put on there? What time? On here oh I'll put about Mm. yeah cos me and Jonathan started talking on it before. Yeah. You know? Mm. Mm. I ain't made too many mistakes oh I've put them marathon . Mm. Nothing exciting happening, there's them poisoned dwarf. my mothers today. Why's that? Cos they took him off and put him somewhere else. I bet he didn't like that? No. Was Bleep in? Yeah he had a big do with the council man. Why? The council bloke come down Oh, what is Val's accent? Well west is it? Yeah. to be exact. Well I don't know well that'll be on there if they want to know anyway now, you've just said it. Mm erm yeah the council bloke come down and went in while his father was there I see you've got no carpets down anywhere the door's not painted and he said you've been living here for two years! Well what's the council man got to do with that? Well they got a grant you see. Well carpets ain't got nothing to do with it surely? Yes they have that's when I the house is finished. Oh. When your carpets were down, you moved in so he's coming back December the eighth. I thought he would have to tell them got his carpets down. He had a carpet just put down in his lounge. Well he's got a lot to do then. He was belly aching . Cor! How's how's the thing between Blue and Completely by now. Good heavens! Even the first day back there was hardly any atmosphere at all very serious mood they were but Kim keeps well out of it. Oh I think she's the trouble maker there myself. Yeah she'll just keep well out of it. I think that's what started it all off I think she's running off. Yeah. Oh whatever you done? Yeah she was erm well necessarily cos that day Blue was working on the other team as well so he had his erm break at different time. Yeah. And I er she comes storming out of the canteen swearing not at anybody in particular, just at herself really! And then she's seen me, oh what time does Blue finish? I said whenever he about half past three so erm so then she come down Geoff said you gotta finish half past three Blue my God!. Oh. And he did as well. What you mean? Well like sometimes I'll say to him everybody gonna finish about four you know Yeah. what happens, then his she stands there, you bloody by four but I mean he finished when I said he was gonna finish for a change I should think. I didn't know Julia hadn't been in for a long while. No, what's the matter with her? She'd erm was erm getting a pie out the oven and cos some of the juice went on the floor, she wiped it up thinking she'd wiped it up properly and she didn't, she slipped, she's broken a couple of bones in her foot. Cor! No I ain't seen for ooh She hasn't been there for about a month. That's it then . I suppose she must have her foot in plaster. Mm and old Bob down the road, Bob , he hasn't been in for about the same sort of time this'll be his fourth week won't it? Well I see him walking about the other day! He's hurt his hand. Oh. Come home from work on the Saturday and assume he went shopping or something, apparently he hurt his hand.. Has he? Yeah Mr said have you seen do it? I said, no I haven't. Well I seen her at even the other day. Yeah. I think it might have been Saturday possibly. By Saturday normally I see him. Well he goes up to do his shopping don't he, in town Yeah. and walk up . Yeah. What does he do for Christmas Geoff? No idea. Cos he's got a son away hasn't he? Got a son up Sunderland. Perhaps goes there? Mm he normally goes up to his son's every six weeks. Does he? Yeah. That must be a lonely old life for him living there all on his own. Yeah it is . What happened to his mum?. Oh. His wife. Carrying on with . Oh I don't know! Yeah she was. I thought she was dead or something! No she got off So she innit. Oh I dunno. I've I think I'm right in saying she was something to do with erm that boy who Married someone else. Yeah. Oh! I think she was that doing it. Perhaps it was her. I dunno but erm oh yeah she's God, everybody used to go round their house. Oh crumbs! Mm. And thi and this All the blokes on the one night on they used to go in there. They didn't! I assure you they did it's hard working down there for so long it Yeah cos he's a nice little man ain't he? Yeah he's harmless. Yeah ever so harmless little fellah. Yeah. Hard working old boy as well. What about what Brian said last night? What? About, cos that man was sitting outside May . Oh May . He weren't sitting outside her house at all, he was sitting up here! Yeah well he, didn't go up the sides or something? Oh well he might of done, yeah. Make our bloody They're paranoid for people breaking Yeah. in arn't they. Yeah. I was telling Sue about it, oh my God she said! She said well they didn't look the type, I was going well now Yeah. quite honestly he didn't! Yeah. I said and he's quite and inoffe i inoffensive little man he was a nice little man. Bag of nerves weren't he? Well yeah, but he was a nice little man. Yeah. He knew what he was talking about. He reminded me of someone, I couldn't quite I know somebody who acts very much like him I just can't well I told him you remind me of someone. Did you get your milk today? No, none at all. Oh right. Ooh I rang the club and sorted that out, done Mm. that. Yep. So she said well don't don't put them down again I'm doing it by the computer. Ah! So I said well do I get the things now? So she said well no cos she said you're you're in the re in arrears a bit. Ooh I said, oh have I? It ain't a lot! So she said I'll do it on the computer and and I'll let you know so we're eighty pound behind well course we never sent one month at all! Did you not? No! So we got behind So I said well we'll tr I'll try and get caught up sort of, in the new year you know, get them a bit . Actually I think I'm gonna finish that catalogue anyway I'm just Which one are we talking about? Grattan. Oh yeah. And just have the other one cos they're such a peculiar funny firm they are! Mm. So I explained to them, I said well that's cos you changed over and I sort of never put it across through oh she said well don't worry I've done it now, she said you haven't got anything to worry about now, I said well it did bother me a bit to think that I didn't think you had my payment! Oh yes she said, we've had it I thought well why send me letters,then! Well that's a standard letter I suppose and Well that's what she said, that's a standard letter. Yeah the only trouble is, you know, standard letters don't always sort of Well you get some little old dear what runs the That's right. catalogue to Yeah. get a little bit of pocket money or that's the only way she can get anything! Oh they're out in that car again out there. They've been working on Sarah's today. Damn! They're up to the roof aren't they? Yeah Yeah What's they put the trusses on and then they fill the gables in and then put the tiles on. I didn't think Sarah didn't go to the ol lo oh had oh I wouldn't of thought that was a pair, Oh no they want something flash don't they. Well Val was telling me Caroline got the kids all in a row and said something about erm you know, more or less to say well I want to leave your father she said She did? what do you think about it Sam? And he just put his head down. And what do you think about it Erica? And she burst into tears! And what do you think about it erm what did I say the other one's name was? Ben, Erica Which one did I say? That'll be Ben the oldest. Ben, Erica you said Ben and Erica. No it was Sam. Oh sorry, Sam no it's Sam, Erica. Yeah well anyway the other one Yeah. he said well I think that's the best you can do father, he said we've had enough hassle for you for all these years! So she said quite right, she said he's done nothing but bully you lot ever since you've been children! So she said and I felt very proud of my son, ah I said I wouldn't want a son of mine who said that to his father! No. I wouldn't of wanted it. Well no, but on the other hand you know Yeah but all said and done Geoff, they are his fa , he is their father. Yeah but I mean it depends what sort of bloke he is, and I mean if he is like that He you know what a big head he is. Yeah but I mean you don't know what he's like to his kids do you? Well she said he he's done nothing but bully them. Well then the kid's right ain't he? Well you heard what he said he wants his children to have a good education and he pushes them all the time, they've gotta if they do anything Yeah. they've gotta be brilliant at it But Yeah. you see some children ain't got it in them and you know Oh yeah. but you heard what Ashley said about swimming. Made them yeah. Well, to me if a child has got a by all means encourage along but you shouldn't push them into anything cos later on in life they get a bloody complex about everything you know if they I don't know. if they've got a job or something they're frightened they're not gonna do well and Where do you draw the line between you know, not sort erm encouraging and not Well I do it all look at it's the way you say it. Well that's what I'm saying, so perhaps the kid was right in what he said. Well yeah but I wouldn't Been a bastard to him well Well would you like your son to say I think Well no but I don't to think I am like that with Jonathan. Well no. Well I don't like But he's always been like that with them kids you know yourself if they do anything it's gotta be done Well you know how he is, if you say too much to him, don't do that, don't shout at me! He soons starts squawking and wiping his eye and stamping about the place but if he's like that all the while to them so what is . They've all gone off to Fiji. Who has? The parents, he said he was going didn't he? Oh him as well? So she said, Val said I thought good for you mate, you didn't get pushed out he's gone they're all gone till the new year innit? Well I wouldn't of wanted to go with them myself. Well not after that little escapade, nor would I. I wouldn't of thought so I would of sa I would of said well if I bloody ju good enough for living with I bleeding come on a I don't think she'd want him on holiday with her anyway and her sister said is she hadn't got enough money, she'd pay for it. That's right that's what Val told me. She don't have time for him. What? She hasn't got a lot of time for him now. Who hasn't her sister? Her sister. No she just says he's a bloody big head! Well he is isn't he? Well yeah. Ah I mustn't I must admit I don't think I know any worse than him. But I think he's quite harmless really Geoff I don't think he Oh yeah. means any harm, that's his way. Well that's yeah but I I must admit I find it quite tiring. Well he's always been pleasant to me you gotta I can honestly say he's the sort of bloke I would sort of try not to get lumbered with at a party or somewhere like that I mean I don't mind I didn't mind talking to her but I find her Well I find her boring. Yeah. I find her very boring although she's a very kind person. Yeah, no I could talk to her more than I could talk to him. I'm surprised you know, she isn't stuck for them children mo any more if he'd been Oh yeah. like this that's it. Let's face it she erm I mean she was the one who bloody married him! Well she hates him! Yeah. She literally hates him! Yeah. Well I think that's awful I do. Well yeah well I suppose that's what she thinks, if she gonna go through the rest of her life with a bloke she hates. Well she might as well get rid of him now, I suppose while she's young enough to find perhaps find Yeah. somebody else. Well whatev whatever's all this big house in aid of then? I bet they're gonna build it and sell it! Well that's gonna be the farm though innit? They'll have to sell sell the farm and everything. Well yeah, I would've thought so because le And hope . Well let's face it erm he's got a, a half a half a right to it. I know yeah. He's worked hard, he's worked he ain't he does work, when he works. Does he though? Well I dunno. I always see him riding about up the Steven there he's always up there I know when I used to work for it was always Steve who used to be riding to this farm, riding to that farm, checking on this, checking on that and taking the wages round that sort of thing. And he does it now does he? Oh yeah. You never see that erm do you? No you don't. Well yeah cos when you think like that if they do pack up he's got no no nothing. No not really. Well not unless they they don't sell that house well look at poor old Dick! Yeah but he's just about retiring age anyway isn't he. Yeah but he's still gotta have a home to live in Geoff! Well yeah, alright yeah but they normally get out don't they? When they were like Jack what's his name? Erm Jack the foreman he got out and when he when he retired cos you know Well that's like er the house went with the job. but then they've got er er said they they asked if they could rent his house off him until they got themselves sorted out. No bloody way he said! Did he? I thought to myself well yo if Laura had a house and then thought Pete was in that in that position, I'd of helped him. Did he really? Yeah well they've had they've had a big today. Who have? . Oh? Well I thought she said I ain't gotta then have they? A hundred pou thous thousand in debt they had two lo two bloody great Morgan cars! About what was that? Well I reckon that's her either his mother or her mother. Yeah. Cos when I was coming home from Pete's a bloke stopped me er whatever's that noise? I dunno. A bloke stopped and he said er can you tell me where is? I said well you're in the oh he said I'll tell you what I want, a little black and white house I said it's just there look I said nearly you're nearly on top! He got a few yards down, he said so I said well have yo you haven't come round to view the house today have you? Oh no he said, I said because they got a funeral on, he said that's what we've coming for, we're coming to pick granddad up. Oh. Well I thought well I didn't want people going round there No. Well that was a waste of their time if they'd have gone round there to view them, weren't it? Yeah. So that was not having a lot of flipping luck is she? No. But they haven't put them out their home. No. Alright, but I think they've gotta re-house them first haven't they? I dunno. Well yeah they just shove you out on the street, they gotta especially if you got children they gotta re-house you. Yeah. But I dunno whatever's whatever's this bloody world coming to? , she said I really don't where it's gonna end Geoff, I don't know no more. Well you never guess what she said today? No. Well I wa she said I'm gonna start up drinking June I said you're not! She said I bloody well am! She said you can up and have one with me if you like sometimes, I said alright then. She said well he's got his fags, she said I'm gonna start drinking! I said well be warned Val! She said I know when to stop, I thought yeah but Yeah but that I've heard all that before! Jonathan what are you doing ? Ooh and there's ooh something else happened as well! Yeah. She erm Sha Sharon's not going out with them now for Christmas. Oh yeah, why's that then? Cos Marie's going in hospital having her operation. Yeah. She said and I'm not leaving her to you see! No. But Val said them children them children have they manipulate her. Yeah. I thought well manipulates you Val. . So she said erm I'll bloody told her straight she said! But she said there's Geoff worried sick about that old girl Yeah. because he's said well she's go she's they got her this little place, didn't they? Sorted it all out for her and carp it was all carpeted everything Yeah. now she's gone and moved down in West . But he Val said it was that flipping rough Yeah. and the house is like a tip! Yeah. And she said Geoff kept saying to her oh I wouldn't move from where you are, you know you got your place lovely i if you the reason she moved was cos she wanted Tony to get the breakfast round What was said that's what Val said. I can well imagine. So she said the 's go out with them don't they? Di oh yeah That makes me laugh! What? What does? Well she isn't is she? Well erm That's what I mean they don't call them they call them cos she don't want to lose her name does she? Pathetic innit! I didn't think Ken liked the woman. Bloody arrogant can you get! Well Ken don't like the woman anyway, does he? I know he don't no. Well I certainly wouldn't sit down at Christmas dinner with them that's why Yeah they're going. Oh you said yeah. And er Mervy. Yeah. And that's all now so Val said she said I said to Cheryl now don't you go and take Mervy away cos me and Ken certainly aren't gonna go and sit sit with erm the 's all dinner time so she said what they're gonna do, they're going out for the meal and everything and then they're Ken are gonna go to Cheryl's for the rest of the day So I said so that's upset your plans then Val she said isn't it just! She said I've been really looking forward to it June. Have a break looked like she gonna cry any second! She said Oh. Do you know me and Ted have been married thirty year no not thirty, they've been going out together thirty years Yeah. then she said do you know these last six months we do nothing but argue she said we've never argued so much! Yeah. And she said oh I think it's only the pressure. Well that's right. I said well me and Geoff argue more, I said we never used to cos we never argued a lot did we? No. Well we have done I felt sorry cos I hadn't really when she phoned me up over there I was up I thought oh my God! Yeah, Cos I'm a bit worried we gotta get things sorted out so I rang I said I didn't to get onto you, she said no I know how they feel she said her granddad always do things like that. What? You know break appointments I said well that only worries it ain't quite the same is it? well I said I suppose Geoff couldn't get away. Well they just wouldn't let me I said that that worried m that really sort of worried me so I rung her back anyway, she's alright. Well, you don't wanna worry about them because at the end of the day, I mean if if that was absolutely desperate I shall turn round and say well I'm sorry I've bloody got to and that's it! You know, but I mean But you must go Wednesday Geoff! Yeah No And she been it was they was that panicking cos tomorrow morning, the ministry are coming and Yeah. they was panicking. We all it is ba , well I say all it is this bloody great strip right be between the ceiling and the walls, the right length of corridor and the manager see it and he said look that should be shiny sort of like and it's all pitted so he said you'll have to go up here he said and do it all with steel abrasive said fair enough. So of course I, took me about half hour to find the forklift cos somebody had nicked it by time I went got the chemicals Robin comes down, he said oh don't worry about he said do i do it tomorrow morning he said, they'll be nobody about then can you go down the bot bottom and do the butterflies? I felt well bloody marvellous, you now,i it was that imperative it had gotta be done, you can't have time o no I'm sorry you can't! So you could of gone to that appointment tonight? Well, well no, no because it was then about, that's what I'm is, then four o'clock you see, so I mean I knew I wouldn't make it anyway that's why I thought I'd better ring cos the job that we finished was half past three so I thought well even if I come home I shall be late even if I don't get changed and washed or anything. Yeah well you can't go there not washed and changed. No that's what I thought I was But you got an appointment fo you could of had one for tomorrow but I thought Wednesday is a better day I thought. Wednesday is a better day, and anyway Thursday's erm he's got a he's gotta go at four actually go at four not an appointment, he's gotta go at four. Why erm why do the ministry keep coming down there then? Do they turn up there? Well I don't know, whether they're trying to catch them out but they they certainly coming down more and more an and sort of more and more frequent. I'm surprised they warn them that they're coming. Well it's erm the sort of things they pick them on really is not that Not hygiene sort of thing? No, thing I mean silly little thing, well I think it's silly but there you are, they all see to know what they're talking about but I mean cer certain things like in the fillet room Mhm. the meat is not allowed to go on just an ordinary pallet. It's gotta go on a special one? It's gotta go on a steel pallet and yet next door in the export chiller they're allowed to go on a wooden pallet and we work on wooden pallets erm I'm surprised they use wood. Well if you see how many pallets they got and you see the trouble is the metal ones are so slippery they're all the while dropping meat all over the floor. Yeah I suppose they would, yeah. There's loads of things they're on about oh th the there's a whole book what they gotta h have sorted out. Do they? Oh Christ yeah! Certain doors are not to be opened things like emergency exits there's they notice that there's more one of the emergency exits is actually broken, so the door don't even open. Bloody hell! So all that stuff Well then that is, that's gotta be sorted out because if you Yeah. had a fire there, somebody wouldn't get out properly! That's right. Yeah. Well that's like us we haven't got an emergency exit. What way do you go to your nearest exit then? Well there's a bloody great roller door, but you see it's at the end we work Yeah well what about if the fire was down that end? Well exactly! How would you get out? We haven't got the oh yes there is, oh course there is, that's a lie we go through yeah. Yeah well what about if the fire's between the box room and this exit? Well that's where they are I went that slid across there like that, phewf! Where are you going? What ab oi! Don't ask then! I mean I won't even talk to myself am I? No.. I didn't tell your mum that I'd got it on you see she said now all that I've been saying! So I said well no, no they won't take no notice of that, I said anyone that's been Yeah. I said they ain't gonna say ooh that's Val on there, I said the No they don't know who it is, do they? I said well they don't know! No it's the London University of What is it? London University. In Cambridge got something to do with, what was that he said? Well anyway something about University you know all these studies they do. Yeah. It's all about speech patterns. Geoff and Joan thought erm someone was trying to rob us along here! He sat in his car out there Poor little man! and they thought that he was the accomplice sitting outside while somebody was going round the house. I said I don't know what hollering for, he's got a bloody I'm surprised they haven't got rottweiller there! the bloody postman down as a Oh yeah. detective or something! But how pathetic! Yeah. Well well no, you know I had at mum's and I yeah come home and I thought well I'll drop that, I'll stay and go up the ladder and I was gonna do painting you got him Hey up!! So I jumped right away. ! Then I thought what on earth did he say! And then I just never understood a word of what he said. Well I can never understand him. No I can't. I thought what ever's he on about! I can. If we ought to had him mate they'd have thought he'd come from Well another planet! I can't never understand him. No I must admit I can't. We have this French woman come in she comes quite often Mrs and she said I'd like to make an appointme appointment on the she said the eleventh, and I thought I said pardon? And she said it again and I thought well i it didn't sound like eleven eleven I don't know what it sounded like really and I just went so that'll be Wednesday the eleventh? And I thought if she says yes, I've got the date right ! Yeah. And did you get it right? Yeah that's embarrassing, you feel an idiot don't you! I was just gonna say yo Yeah I was just gonna say you got a purple tint in your hair but I can see what it is now! She got those to purple tint on top. I like her hair tha that colour do you Geoff? I don't mind either way really. I don't look like Ann now do I? No ! I dunno No. Well I think er the funny thing is it's looks dark now. Yeah. Well that's cos it's always been so light But I suppose it's been isn't it? Yeah. Ah I like it I knew there was something Oh I like her hair. different to me have a at least when you have it down Sarah If you think so I've Yeah. I think I could of Oh yeah er I mean I know it's a bit messy at the moment, I ain't washed it since last time you see! Oh I see yeah. isn't you really? No erm but when I when I have I'm so used to having it up and all tucked back when I have it down I feel scruffy Yeah? Yeah I think you do feel tidy if your hair's off your face. Yeah. Yeah. Mm but mind you I had that headband didn't I? But what I'd like to do is I'm gonna set it on rollers I'm gonna blow dry the top I'm gonna Yeah. set the back on rollers and then, you know when I have it all clipped there with an oval clip Yeah. in my neck? Secure it there, pin it all under, then I'd like to get a net with sequins on it or Oh yeah! or something to put over it for evening, but I can't find one. I wonder where you find one of them from? You know, sort of back comb it out so it's sort of Well they must do them Sarah, mustn't they? Yeah but I thought I ain't seen anybody with it like that be a bit different, sort of when we go out New Years Eve and that. Mm where's a ? I don't think we got one round here. Only Peterborough I suppose. Peter or Cambridge I suppose. Yeah. Mm. And or perhaps a real sort of top hairdresser, they might have them they sometimes have bits and Yeah. pieces don't they? Well that used to be all the rage once, didn't it? Yeah I mean we got hairnets at work sort of clear ones though. I remember hairnets You get Oh yeah! O yeah and But they're erm They're red. Ah no ours are just you couldn't tell you'd got it on. No. No. Sort of a hair colour practical Yeah. you see. That's right. But I think next time I might have it cut short. You're not! I might do, I don't know I'm fed up with it really! You want a change? How Yeah. was you thinking of having it cut? Short. What short short? Yeah. Actually I think it suits you, I mean really i like it's not on her face anyway isn't it? No so short So I think No. short hair would suit you cos you haven't got it all over your face have you? Cos I saw erm a photo when I was eighteen and I it was sort of short in the neck over my ears short in there and then sort of fuller there and then just a bit of you know a light fringe not a heavy fringe and I thought I might have it like that so Yeah. That'll be nice I can't really remember Well I think if that was me I'd have that done now in case you don't like it by the time you you get married and that could be growing again. Oh no I wouldn't have it cut until after I got married. Oh No. you'd have it cut after? Yeah. Oh. Cos I definitely want my hair long for when we get married. You do? Yeah. Yeah so that I can either have it up or down really. Yeah. I've got the choice then. Yeah I do do you know I don't like to see brides with their hair down if you've got long hair i Oh. but I don't think sometimes I think well if it looks nice but some of them brides on there that just hangs don't it? Oh yeah, I'm not having it like that. Mm I think I but Sarah did it at work, she did it sort of plaited it from here round Oh yeah! and this was taken up in like folds but the plait stood away from the head, it sort of come out Oh yeah! you know, as you get them half baskets that fit on a wall Mm. Yeah. not as much but it sort of come out like that and then you sit your flowers it makes that a shell if you know what I mean? Oh yeah! But it it's flatter coming on there and then you sit your flowers all along on there but Oh that's sounds nice! but then I'd I like it fuller and prettier. Yeah. You know I'd like a little bit more curly and not Yeah. curly curly but sort of fuller and Well you'll have to have it done a couple of times Yeah. sort of try two or three styles then sort of how well you gotta think about your headdress and that first, haven't you? Yeah. What you're gonna have and then pu guide your hairstyle to go with it we or Yeah. or your wearing wha well, yeah. No I'll be the next sa What you be doing in the new year Sarah? I know, I think after Christmas I'm gonna go and have a look for some dresses and you see when it was an ordinary colour I was gonna have ivory but now it's this colour I think i'll be better having having white, I don't know. Mm. I think if you've got the white . Yeah. Yeah but you aren't But then you haven't got a white skin Sarah have you? You've got a sort of a bit of an olivy skin haven't you? It's not Yeah yeah. Yeah so you will have time to I shall be out there every day ! get a Yeah. tan won't you? Yeah. You'll have time to do that. You see if you have iv , and ivory dress certain colour bridesmaids dresses don't go with ivory. Yeah. So they do do they? No. That sort of thing. You're right yeah. Cos I think with ivory, I think peaches and that look nice, but I think with white I like stronger colours . Yeah. Still, I don't very often wear pale colours. Will you have your bridesmaids dresses made? I don't know I hadn't really thought about it. Had you thought about your bridesmaids yet? Yeah I am not gonna have all six I think. Oh are you! Yeah, but I'm short of two little ones, or one little one erm Amy's cousin Joanne and and then Helen Florence's little girl, Helen Yeah. and Amy's cousin Claire and then this girl who's hair I do What? This girl who's hair I do erm her little girl, Karla cor she's if I found a little girl to look like her, I'd have one! Oh. But she is so pretty! She's got white blonde hair. So you want another little one? Yeah. Are you having any page boys? Yeah I might do yes erm probably Ben. Well didn't you just have That's what mum said, have the Why don't you have the little bridesmaid and the page boy. with the page boy? Yeah. Instead of having another bridesmaid, have a page boy and so the two little ones go up together page boy Yeah. and erm bridesmaid and then have your bridesmaids behind. Yeah mum, that's what mum said. I think that'd look nice I might do. a little boy and a little girl together. Yeah cos they're the same age. Yeah. Both blonde. Ooh Mm. she's ever such a pretty little girl, she's got white blonde hair Oh I think that'll be nice! really sort of she's just a pretty little girl. Yeah. Then she dresses her lovely as well. Then you haven't gotta worry about finding another one. No yeah I could do that. Couldn't you? But apart from that I hadn't really thought about it really. Well , Jonathan don't do that while that's on because it ain't no good doing it! Well yeah get over Christmas and then you can start sorting yourself out really. Yeah , yeah I know and I think once the matters on the bungalow and that Mm that's right. Big! I'm not big. There's just a lot to think about isn't there? Yeah. Yeah cos tha once Christmas is here, that'll soon come won't it? Yeah, eight months then. It'll fly by now Christmas Yeah. New Year, Easter Ooh can't wait ! Yeah. Can we go ? Jonathan goes to soon. I can't wait till Christmas! Not till next September well it'll Next be soon after I get married then won't it? Yep. Yeah. Oh! I don't want to go in. And won't you Sarah? I don't want to go! You get the first week will seem a bit strange but once you get the first week over you're alright then. Oh no! I'll skip the first week. You will be won't you? Yeah. And you're working. yeah. Hopefully. Yeah. Well yeah, if he can get a job that is! Mm. How the job situation is these days! You needn't get the . He can't a job. Oh! What does he do then? Well he's a labourer really. What bi for builders? Sort of classed as a labourer and He erm, he didn't have a job for two weeks! He said he can't get unemploym erm the dole or nothing cos he's self employed! Then there's twelve of us down. What? Twelve is it? He can't get any money se so so he can't get erm what do you call it? Social security Social security. if you've got money in the bank! Well I said that's terrible that our boy should suffer because he's got money in the bank, and saved his money! Yeah. He's gotta live off his ear off his money ain't he? Well he isn't certainly gonna dwindle But why should you have to when you saved Exactly! saved it Too right Sarah! for if you want a house or See they'll maintain that Yeah that's right! Social security . I said you're paid the same. No. Social security is when you haven't got no money and he has got money. Well I ain't got any but they won't give me any! Well that's like when older people when they save for their retirement and that you know Yeah. they can't get things cheap like bus passes and all that can they? No. Well Well I think, I, I don't think it pays you to save up er No. for your retirement and so you'll be comfortable off cos you might as well live off your state like everybody else. Yeah. You might as well enjoy your money as you go along, why bother to have any! They were saying on the television the other day Why bother! the new taxes Well I certainly isn't going to, Sarah! The new tax law thing I shall get as much out the system as I can mate! Me me. Well I told you that. if they go up erm the government now wanna Help! bring this new tax, but instead of poll tax and community charge and that it's gonna be like a new erm property tax. Oh yeah, I think I've heard of that. And er what they're saying that, sort of, you get people, shall we say, older people who He's are retired so they got no income and then perhaps been left the house Oh! in in a will or something Yeah. so they have the house and move into house Then they pay a lot but they're gonna taxed so heavily that they can't afford to live in it under this new tax! They've just gotta sell it! I thought well how what a bloody shame! Terrible isn't it? Mm I mean er why don't they do it on like the square, how big your house is because that way you could I know it's not far when people who live in a great big old house don't have to pay as much cos if this I mean Uncle Trevor and Aunty they've got a massive great house haven't they? Have yeah. But if this because it's old or something they don't have to pay so much the the rates The rates, yeah. you know? Yeah. But if you only went on the square foot it don't matter how big it was well that's like, surely that'd be fairer? That's right it wasn't Yeah but ah then again why I mean like a lot of people have don't have actual they haven't got money but they they sort of choose to have money tied up in property ,though it don't mean to say you're wealthy just because you've got a big house does it? If No. you've got no money we haven't got any money but, you know Doo doo doo doo I mean why should I I Why should you be condemned just because you've put your money into your house? Yeah that's right, I mean some people don't Alright fair enough they want you to buy your own property but now . Yeah. Oh! And if you go a spend if you in if you've got a big house and you tend to spend thirty thousand pound on a new car you don't get taxed on that Phone! Phone Geoff! new car. Shall I pause this? I thought it was the front doorbell. Shall I stop it? No, leave it on. Well that's like there's jobs like Shall I stop it till daddy's back? your dad and Geoff they pay a stamp at Turners don't they? Yeah, they do. They still have to pay a self employed one as well you know? I didn't know whether your dad knew that? You still have to pay it back, I said well I don't think you should have to pay it back! Cos you're going there because your own business has not any more! Yeah. . Well yeah, Geoff wouldn't be there if i if his business was running alright! Well I said I don't think that's to e you should pay two stamps myself! No well there's nothing wrong in pay any. Like bloody ! Yeah cor I could I could couldn't you? I feel like giving him away but I don't know whether I would, but I feel like it. Yeah. I'm surprised someone hasn't. Which erm relative of 's has died? Dunno who has. Well I reckon that's her mother or his mother. I don't really know, I haven't heard Mm anything about it. Somebody will find me . Yeah because erm as we come home from work these two sort of big saloon cars, black ones sort of come up, mourning cars I suppose you call them and they stopped at 's and picked a load of people up. I thought you called a ? No ! But you mean, no not them Jonathan! Oh. And then as we was coming home from Pete's, a chap stopped us and asked us where was so I told him where was he said I'm looking for a little black and white house I said it's right there look! He was right up to it so I said well I don't know whether you're going round to view the house cos that's on the market aren't they? Here we are Yeah. you got the in here? cos I said erm no I haven't actually, stop cos I said that That's what I've come round for! then. they got a death in the family today and then he said that's what we've come, we've coming to pick up granddad, so I reckon that is Yeah. her mother or his. Better have the one who's died I think. No! It wasn't her June, was it? No! Not her? No it was . Oh well that's There was some smart cars round there today. Yeah? Oh . Ooh! Hey? . Well I said they haven't had the house yet! That's right. I know ! I bet that that's pretty as well. . No that's him You've been in it! that's him on the phone So have I! he was saying all the sort say at work you know that they they don't know and they start on about er You have been a . you ruin your chances so about three times a week the comes in to arrange my poll tax and all this and they get going you know well why should a bloke that having a big house and he only pays the same rate as them so I said, well it's like this as far I'm concerned I said you know no bloke works perhaps twice as many hours as you do he chooses haven't you? Yeah yeah. When I said, I think that's wrong! Yeah. The only time you don't pay a self-employed stamp is if you your business earns,yo you can actually get away it, if you've lost money on your own business on paper or if you've earned Well we have! Why have you got it? Yeah tha that's what I'm saying, I ain't got to. You haven't got to pay it? No What about that last lot? Ah that's , what they've said once you've paid it, you can't get it back, and if you don't pay it they can't insist you pay it. Well you haven't paid it. No I paid the last one though. Well you can't stop paying it now. So you haven't gotta pay that one more . No , I can't afford to. Ooh good! Good good good. That's it, why should you have to keep Yeah. paying for them all year long? Ah but perhaps Ken's the same as you then? Cos I shouldn't think he's made any profit. Dunno, well that's the situation. I think you're allowed you're allowed to make thirty pound a week profit fifteen hundred pound a year, anything over fifteen hundred pound on your business they gotta pay tax. Well you had a loss. . God! So a I said it's a shock Ken lost we didn't know you see, well Geoff paid it last year, well he di he di he didn't have to! My name is Jonathan . So that's like dad said, I mean things Dad? are not always Can you pass me the the people that have left are sort of in the recession and that now, there's all the really big business people and that that have come down to the same level as everybody else. That's right. And they're all creating but you know Yeah. there's been a lot of people that have been on that level for a long while. That's right. Yeah we have. Yeah. Yeah. You know, but now cos all tha all them estate agents that had all the boom and everything didn't they? Yeah. Yeah made a fortune didn't they? Yeah. Well but I mean, Brian was saying himself you know he can't remember at least he's says he's been working down London when he hasn't been earning a hundred pound a day you know, it's something, we just accepted it, he said over the years I've been earning a hundred pound a day he says, and that was it you know yo yo just do. And now he's nowhere earning That's it. nowhere near that amount. He says he worked like a pansy he said and now he says I go Mm. and he says and I'm putting in God knows how many hours, he said and we got a drop to fifty pound a day . He's halved them wages has he? I said well exactly I said . Is this our book mum? Yeah. But I mean I I wouldn't even mind earning two hundred a fifty a week. Well no, well I mean like we do I mean I mean but I mean my gross up about three hundred over Tony's but I put in many hours right? Yeah. isn't it about like that quarter to five in the morning I know. till quarter five at night and then Saturdays as well till dinner time you know? But they Yeah. better that me. I found some . But then you want it . Well that's right that is They it. So you're gonna get tax back as well, like you was told? That's it Gonna get that back so I mean all these little bits that are grumbling cos they've come down, but really they've come down to the same level as Well that's right. everybody else. Yeah. Yeah. That's right Sarah. They don't Well Brian was telling me levels off! You was . What's the time? I'd better go in a minute. Eight o'clo ,eight o'clock. Eight o'clock. Five past! Oh I've got one of them things. Geoffrey Oh. wants one, don't you Geoffrey? Er no I mean, them over there Mm mm. oh but they really get up my nose!just wanna do is phone me up, you know I I sa oh had a row with , don't say anything like about quarter to four time and I said to her, well I'll be quite honest I said er there's sixty pound a week or seventy pound a week I get more than you I said I have never heard a load of moaning pratts in all my life! I said you overtime you're moaning cos you gotta do, oh yeah we're always Yeah. the one's that have gotta I said and as soon as you ain't got no overtime ooh we aren't allowed a lot this week, we're a bloody flat week da and a I said I don't know what to do to keep you happy! I said if you said to me, Geoff, I want all the overtime I can get I can get the overtime I'll go round and I'll try and or if you say to me well I don't want the overtime, I'm quite happy with a flat week then I'll know what I am but I said you change from day to day, one day you wannit, another day you don't! You Yeah. just want the job, to suit you if you wa , if you want to go and pick your kids up from school you'd think that oh why should we do work today, you know, let somebody else do it! So I said Right. well blow that! I said there's a You gotta take it when it's there ain't you? That's right I said, you know, I can't understand you! I says yo you go out to your flipping eleven pound a week Mummy ! Oh no! and er he gets a thirty five pound a week child allowance on his for his four kids! Typical innit, though! That's a about a innit bloody hell! Paying they're paying yeah so Well you . so I er he said er no he said, it's not that he said I don't like people to tell me you've got to do overtime today, he said, I like to be asked! I said well I'll be quite honest mate, there's two hundred people working in this factory and I said, if you think that e all the charge hands and the supervisors have got to come down and roll up you lot to get the job done I said you turn round and you think if you was in business, whatever it is you like to do, if you're in business and you've got an order and that order's gotta be out by six o'clock tonight and you've gotta grovel to your workers otherwise you'd lose that order, I said what would you say? Down the road mate, I'd get somebody who wants to do the job. Yeah that's right I said and that's exactly how they are! I said they aren't gonna put up with like you! I said and that's why cos Paul said to me, he said, I never hear you moan, I said look you won't hear me moan because it's not that I enjoy the job I hate the job I said I hate the work, and I find it hard work but at the end of the day on a Friday, I know that six o'clock in the morning on a Friday I can go up to the Nationwide Anglia, slip my card in there and I know there's gonna be a couple of hundred of quid in there with the Yeah. tax paid and everything, and I know it's gonna be in there I said now that to me is worth a lot I ain't gotta worry whether there's gonna be cheque from out on my doormat in the morning or if it's gonna bounce when I put it in so I sa . as far as I'm concerned whatever o overtime they sling at me, I'll do not because I feel like doing it but I need to do it there's Yeah. my wife and kid at home! So he said oh oh said his moan and groan so he said well I spoke to Blue he said, he's off sick he said and he gets ninety pounds a week for being at home I've been working here all week he said, for a hundred and forty so I'm forty pound a week better off than him! Yes but he's sick! I said he's not on holiday he's sick! Well forty pound a week's forty pound a week extra Yeah. innit? That's So I said how much a month. Yeah. Yeah so I said to him Yeah. I said but what an attitude to take! I said you're not working for forty pound a week Jonathan ! you're working for a hundred Yeah. and forty pound a week but Would you go and check see what the heating's on? you have to be sick you still get paid The temperature's I said you're going about it with the wrong attitude! Mm. A lot of people say I'm bloody lucky to get paid for being at home sick! And that they've got a job. Yep, I said what are you Oh I said no I was home sick and I in bed like you said I couldn't who's gonna turn round and say well there are Geoff there's a hundred quid mate That's it. we know you're ill in bed? I said but you're Nobody is! bloody lucky! I said that'd do you good to be in business for a couple of years, that'd get you sorted out! They all think that's like he said they think oh stand up in the corridor, that's alright, Amy said if you don't if you have a holiday, you don't get no money Absolutely! Well like they're He said they don't know half! that's what I said to Ron, I mean I've never known I can't remember the last time I when I used to work for Colin for ten years trying to get a holiday out of Colin was like trying to get blood! Oh you can't have two weeks at once you know but over there you gotta get rid of your holidays before December, you gotta get rid of them otherwise you lose them. Take them, you've got to get rid of them! Mm. In the end I couldn't get rid of them, I had two days off when I was ill and I had as holidays to ge to get them sort of settled up you know. To get what? That's like this woman at work To get . she's a teacher and I think she thinks that teachers are the only ones that work! Yeah. Oh bloody hell! And I said something Cor! to her like erm Oh yeah . Yeah. erm, what did I say? Something about oh what did I say? She's a funny woman anyway, I said something like They are peculiar breed! I should think I should think you it's nice to have the six weeks ahead of us and she said well it's not a holiday! I thought well I wouldn't mind Ooh no! six weeks of not having to get up and you gotta go. No, not going into the shop at least, yeah. Cor! She said she said for the first week you unwind, I thought if we have a weeks holiday that means that the time you unwind you're back to work again! You're back to work . That's right. She said and then I have two weeks erm homework to mark and then we have a weeks holiday I thought well that's two weeks Yeah. holiday Cor! really. That's it. She said and then the next week you're preparing to go back! Well why can't she do that two weeks marking in that first week she needs to unwind? Yeah. And then have a And yet another client of mine who's a teacher, she said oh yeah she said it's lovely, she said I suppose I ought to do the marking and all that at the beginning she said but I leave it, she said, and I sometimes do it in the last week. Yeah. I thought to myself that's two different Yeah. attitudes really. Yeah. Yeah Yeah. isn't it? No well I All they seem to do to me is drink coffee! That's right. And then you have a we sorry, I'm sorry I can't do it that week, I've got a weeks holiday. What again? I think you have six weeks in the summer, we only get four all year! Yeah well and think about all the other weeks he gets,half term erm And weekends. Yeah. Get all weekend don't you? Sometimes we get what they call baker days. Yeah. You know, so they don't do too badly they do quite well really. Yeah. . Ah I dunno. But people in a way, make you sick really don't they? Yeah. They never They all sort of Always bloody moaning! and they're all aren't they? ready to ta , that's what I said to him you're always ready to take out hand outs, what ever's there to be handed out, you know. Yeah. Cos that really got up, up my back when the , I mean tho ain't a ba , bad bunch of old boys but I normally go down but they they clear and once we've done our work before dinner break they all clear off and I go down to the and then I sort of walk back more or less behind them you know, to the break like and as I go past the club, I go and wash my hands, they go straight in, I go and wash my hands and I walk past the and er we should go to dinner at quarter to twelve and I go past, it's one minute past quarter to twelve so cos when we go in there you see quarter past twelve due to go back I always give them two or three minutes and I say that's it, that's , ah we was late coming in, I said no you weren't! We was I said look I can read a bloody clock as well you can, I said I wa walking behind you down the , you went in the canteen and when I went past it was one minute past quarter to! So I said you know, the one minute past quarter to and there's a sort of quietly you know but then you know, just have to grab at Yeah. they get excitement out of taking two extra minutes Give them an, inch and they want a yard I think oh my God! You know, I, it's so petty that! That's like Sarah at work, I mean she leaves at twenty past five, if she thinks that, she'll leave at ten past five I mean she thinks you're stupid because she don't always go but even when she's not going she Yeah. still goes at twenty past five so why don't she go at six when we do? Yeah. You know. Yeah. And she said she even taking her home Sarah! I told her I wouldn't. Yeah cos she used to get me t , and then she rang me up one day when I was and said dad erm dad can't bring me round there cos the car's not working, can you come and pick me up? Yeah . She said I'll give you some petrol money, I said I'm not bothered about petrol money, I said it's the fact that I've gotta come round to pick you up, I said I'm not a taxi! Yeah. And then I was late, when I got round there I thought well she'll at least be waiting at the top of the drive, if not at the top of the road. Yeah. She weren't there, I had to go round the house knocking on her door and oh Yeah. I was mad! Yeah. Well yeah you don't mind giving anybody a lift No. if they make their way to you. Yeah and she used to be hammering on the door, twenty past five you know yeah but Mrs the other day it was something like two o'clock, Mrs said to her, she went to lunch one till two Mrs oh have you had your lunch? She said no, are you off lunch yet? She said not until five past, Mrs said you can get up them stairs, she said you go at ten minutes early every day! She said I'm sure you're gonna quibble about five minutes lunch hour! Oh she actually told her then? Yeah But bu oh she's just ! Yeah. Idle! Yeah. I said to Mrs , she said I don't know she's a funny girl, I said I don't think she's funny I think she's idle! Yeah. I thought, why should we work to pay her wages? Yeah. Yeah. And she don't do nothing! Yeah. Yeah Does she do any hairdressing yet or? A little bit but she really winds me up she does. Yeah that's how I Yeah. I ! And then she said to me Mrs gives us erm sometimes an extra ten pound, she gets a Y T S allowance Yeah. and she ooh I don't know I'm gonna have to something to her cos some weeks I get it and some weeks I don't, I said you ought to think yourself lucky you get an extra ten pound, I said, we don't! I said we bring them, we're earning the money cos she don't earn her own money does she No. just shampooing. No. No. She said I want to know whether I'm gonna get it regular or not! I said think yourself lucky you get any extra at all! Mm yeah . And then she said about her erm Y T S, oh I haven't got my bus money back yet I only get an allowance! I said well I never used to get any anyway, and I said I used earn less than you! Yeah. You know she cor! Mm. I mean Hand outs every time! But they don't know half do they? That family has more handouts than anybody I know! And the, what is the the thing what annoys me is they're working! Mm. Yeah. That is what annoys about it or fair enough if they haven't got any money they get these handouts but when they're working and they still get them that's when I think it's wrong! I mean we're the mugs aren't we really? Well course we are! That's right. My mo , I think my motto's gonna be, see if you can't beat them, join them! Yeah. Yeah. But that's exactly the same me and Ady having this bungalow built, I mean some people been ever so funny. Yeah. Wonder why . Why should you and Yeah. Yeah. Oh that's alright Been funny? for you, I said we worked you know, we've not been given anything, everything Yeah. we've got we've worked for. Yeah. I mean they get ma , they know for six months, they get married with all the gear, the next year they got a baby, fair enough, that's up to them. And then And then they get divorced! You know, I mean we haven't I ain't got a new car or anything, I've had that Yeah. years and Yeah. Yeah. people do what you know, everybody's different what they do with their money Yeah. aren't they? So they think Yeah. just because we saved for that that you know Well you saved hard for it, so then why shouldn't you have it? That's what I know. you want to do with your money I said that to that's up to you. you know got he he's quite, he's having it built over here. He's important What? Sarah! Oh. No kidding you, his is your dad's bungalow, and it's a house! About as big as your dad's bungalow! that's painting the front in. Oh! If you look round here cos he's right opposite us. It's a concrete slab Yeah. it don't look any He put at all do they? No. Well he's It is bloody huge, he's had the fireman round there! I said to Geoff when you get your footings in they do you think to yourself, cor that ain't gonna be very big! You do yeah. But as soon as it builds up, you see how big it's gonna be so I said well that's gonna be like erm Buckingham Palace I should think! But they haven't a concrete slab! Cos he said it's gonna be as big as the other house. The old house. And do you know he's getting all I wonder how they're doing it? well he thinks he's gonna get his tiles for nothing isn't he, Geoff? Yeah, he said I got a thousand pound well I'll ring around, he said I got a thousand o off my, I saved a thousand pounds on my roof he said I thought bloody hell, how much cost costing him ! No, but he's, he went to the Ideal But he Homes Exhibition Oh yeah. and course they're doing this new tiles. They bought out, this company have bought out a new tile and he said they're looking for a sort of nice house to have as a sort of a show house and then he thinks he'll get them for nothing. Cor must be really ! Mind you, I mean when we were choosing our bricks he said ooh erm he gave number and that, I mean I know he's not too bad is he when you want Oh . he can help them ooh you want to ring him a my bricks should of cost what did he say? Four hundred or four hundred and forty or something erm and on, I can't remember what he said he was getting them for I Two hundred and thirty? Come from Belgium? Probably yes. Yeah. He told me that. But Geoff said there aren't any bricks that are that much money anyway! So I don't know whether he's right or not. no. Cos we But we rang them up and he was dearer than all the blooming builders merchants! Yeah. At least Kevin was saying. Cos you see we was lucky how we got our bricks didn't we? Weren't yeah. we Geoff? I . Well how did you get to know about them? I sold him the car didn't I? That was it. Yeah Geoff sold him the car sold him a couple of cars and he said well he'd Oh. got a load of brick, where did he have them He had it , he got caught by he got er there's like a big pallet all surrounded and he got a big pond down the bottom it's erm near Grimston Common Oh yeah. common and he lived at Grimston and er he got this plot and er what was right next door to it was a sort of real big old li like a French chateau and he wanted a big ge red brick Georgian house, a real big one, sort of sitting at the back of this plot that the owner Oh yeah. had put down the end. Anyway he got all his bricks and everything and er he got all his ideas what he wanted and then they turned round and said no, we're not gonna let you build down there. So we bought his bricks. So he's got all his bricks up virtually I think he said, but I ain't worried about it cos I'll get rid of them somewhere and I helped him out, I sold this car and, and told him what I was doing and he come I've just the thing for you, just cos was having bricks like your dad's, the sand grain sort of brick, you know. Oh yeah. Ooh he said I've got just the for you, he said,he said . And that's how we got them. And I di in the end they the same for them, but He and Geoff went over there and loaded them on the trailer . we would of done it by ourself sorted out. Yeah we do a we went over there and loaded them all on and then got a puncture in the trailer,! Put them on a didn't they, then load them load Yeah. them on yeah. Used be able to sit in the car would be go up the back don't they? Yeah. And I used to load the boot up and bring them and load home like in the boot of my car my Sales Manager said to me the other day, how the hell did you get bright red dust in your boot? I dunno! There's all like red brick dust in your boot! Oh no! Geoff was getting the bricks. And I had Avenger estate, and I done the same with that and I got away with it for ages and I what you want a do, I know what you wanna do he erm, I mean that's that's really sort of pushing it over the top but he got a great big sheet of polythene, he went down to ready mix and had a load of ready mix in the back of this Avenger estate, brand new he'd only just got it! And course Well we didn't do that but and then on top of that he took the battery off Pat's car and it fell over in the front so all the acid burnt the carpet! Come back dinner time and they were saying well no you see you can't just a borrow a car to go to dinner in, yeah that'll be alright man and I hadn't even been in it since Roy bought it back! Absolutely went spare you know ! Sent memos all round, you know and he called me in the office that day, to say I'm really disappointed in you, I said, what do you mean? He said well I give you that Avenger estate he said cos I thought you were building your house, that'll be handy for you you know yeah you did and you let me down badly! So I thought now what do I say, do I drop myself in it or do I say well that wasn't , that was Roy, I said well you know I said I must admit I said I I'm sorry so erm then Roy said well that battery he said was me he said I, I borrowed Geoff's car again and look the battery fell over in it so I'm gonna help him er then I sa , a piece of that bloody great went across our French doors and this, there's a went across Cor! there and I went down to the at and he said we got your lintel in mate, do you want to take it? So I said yeah I can do so he said bring your van down, so I never said nothing so Bob said, got any like your dad had Oh yeah. It's for our new one again you see so I rolled the front seat down put my brief case on the front seat so he says, where's your van then mate? I said it's here! No, where is it? I said that is it! Yo you can't put it in that he said, it's brand new! That'll be alright so cos he slid his my brief case and er I got all the way home, no problem at all, I'd got newspaper under the back, so it didn't scratch the back when I come to come down Mill Road this lorry's go , I mean I got the tail gate up and er I sort of looked in the mirror, I thought oh my goodness my tail gate, I could hear it so and I braked a bit sharp and that slid down and scratched along the dash board! Oh dear! Trying to get it out , sort of plastic dash went creeeh! Cor! This lintel! That went right across there but well I suppose . Well I imagine there is. Yeah. Mum? I wanna play a game. Alright then I'm sorry that's not in there. Mum! Well it don't matter we'll probably be able something out the sale anyway. Yeah you can get it, yeah. Mum, Yeah that's right. take up. What? Er No. . Oh oh didn't look. Anyway I'd better go, I'll see, well if I don't see you before I'll see you next Wednesday For my birthday. then won't I? Yep, so what time is it, half past six is it, or do you want me quarter past six was it, or half six, what time do you want me? Is quarter past six too early? No, I'm home till quarter past eight. Is that alright? Yeah. That'll be better for me really if you don't mind. Yeah, I'll come up to you then. Yeah alright thanks a lot. Yep. Thanks then. Yeah, alright then mate . Because I don't know whether you can Bye! You can turn that off now Jonathan. Would you spend Pardon? a hundred and ninety nine pound on me on my birthday? Certainly not! No I didn't think you would ! No I knew you wouldn't! Would you eighty nine? can't afford that sort of money Jonathan. No cos it's just a computer game. I really can't. Eighty nine pound! Oh . I think that's the something for you, but dad's struggling I really am struggling! Oh I'll find something cheaper Oh! That cos you know what American was? No. You know Julian's one? Yeah. Yeah well it isn't that one, it's I'll find it and I'll read it out to you Julian's one is two hundred and thirty four ninety nine Yeah. because it's got gold wheels right it's got a better suspension. Jonathan you, have you turned that tape off? Oh! Well turn it off now if you wanna watch in fifteen minutes. Have you got all your school things ready? Yeah. You got your trousers all muddled up. Oh! Why do you always have to tell me! Well it's not, very nice going to school with . Right every time we have school's . Your flys are undone! Hi!ha! Ask him to have his undone then! Yeah and he's always . Is he? Mm yeah. And you don't play in blooming class will you? No I won't. Yuk! Erm what was I gonna say? Why don't you put your belt on them trousers? No, leave them like that! Go and get your coat then. Okay, I'll be back in a minute! Do you have to go so early? Yeah. Well why do you go so early? I wanna meet my mates. Oh. Well a but Andrew likes to be going early. Andrew who? Andrew. Andrew ? . Why does he like going early? He just wants to, don't he! Oh do your coat up. Don't throw away! Don't forget your bike tonight. I'll just pick it up. I wondered if you'd help me out in the garden, perhaps like if it's still nice when you come home from school? Yeah. Clear some of the leaves up. If it's bright enough. Yeah if it's nice. I work till four o'clock, and then and then it'll be getting dark won't it? Yeah yeah that's right. Packet and raise your hand there. Pardon? Do I have to be home by five? You're not going today, you're going tomorrow. Oh yeah I am. Yeah I'll meet you up there look, look at her look, look who's looking in the window! Can I let her in? Yeah go and let her in. Oh . Hurry up ! Come here you are come on in! Good girl! Alright then off are you? Hey mummy you know when you used to go to toilet in the middle of a conversation. Yeah. Yeah I know how you do that. Pause it. Yeah, do you know pause it? Yeah. So do I. Yeah. Have you ever paused it yet? No,because I'm frightened o I might I haven't done that. Can I try? No not now, you can perhaps try today. Yeah get in the middle of mu I Say bye to her. Bye pussy, let me say goodbye. You know what she wants. Her breakfast. Yeah and guess who hasn't been fed either! Ahhh! Ginge. Poor little Ginge. Alright then do you want to go then? Yeah just kiss goodbye Bye! Bye bye be a good boy won't I didn't spoil the tape today! I don't want to ! Oh yeah I can do bye then! . Yeah bye ! Bye ! Morning! Twenty please, and have you got a birthday card for mother please? Ooh! Isn't it cold! grandma's back in the wrong place! Ooh I better have a grandma as well please? Oh crumbs yeah! Ooh! Ooh and I want a packet of sage and onion stuffing, whereabouts is that? Anywhere here? It's up the top there in the yellow packet next to the Paxo breadcrumbs, up the top shelf. Yeah oh yeah Ooh God I'm knocking all the shop down! You got some good slippers on! Hey? Oh! There's always something isn't there? Well yeah. Is Rene here today? Yeah. Oh that's nice with the little bunny rabbits on That's a nice one, the little bunnies innit? Yeah. Oh shall gi and one for Jonathan erm nan that one. Oh those two will be alright. Those two? Yeah lovely thank you and do you have stockings? I've got so I've got some here. I'll just have a look They're not erm Pop socks That's one size stockings there's not much left in the way of them now because most people you know don't wear stockings, these are pop Well socks and tights. Tights And that I think they're all tights there. Are they all tights? Yeah apart from that one pair that you got in the, that you had there. Yeah that's not really the right colour for her erm what else can I think of? Have you tried this V P sherry? No. Well she drinks sherry you see I thought well is that a sweet sherry? I don't know Er what's it got on it, it's medium isn't it? It's cream isn't it? Cream sherry, that should be fairly shouldn't it? Well yeah it should be. Yeah I'll have that then well the lovely thanks very much. Did 's grandma die or something? Mm? 's Yeah. up the road. I think last Oh. week. Oh the funeral was yesterday weren't it? Yeah. Yeah where was she buried down here then? Cos she lived do She lived no she was in Marshlands Nursing Home. Oh was she? Oh I didn't know. Yeah she'd been in there about seven or eight months I think. Oh. That's why they erm the funeral was actually from Carole's. Yeah I se well I happened to be coming home from school cos I thought there was a the hearse coming and then I watched two mourning cars two flashy great big things! Mm. I thought crumbs I bet that cost a lot! They do don't they? I thought how the other half live! I must be doing something wrong! Suppose sometimes in those circumstances, I know I mean my mum and dad died two years ago it was a thousand pound! Yeah it must be it's not cheap Well to die is it ! so six months later Terry's mother died it was a thousand pound gone up! Crumbs! It had gone up in that time. Don't worry about that Val I'll do it when I get home. One of those cars Terry's mother only had two. Yeah. But he didn't have the he he had the hearse and one car we had the hearse plus three more cars. Did you really. And cost us a thousand pound. Yeah. About five hundred pound those three cars. Was it really? Cor! And his coffin was draped with the union jack. Was it? Was he erm in the He was into a lots of things, he was er in the sea scouts, he was the district commissioner of the scouts. Oh he's all sorts of things then? Yeah. Yeah. He's also done a lot of things with his Yeah. so I mean they Yeah. sent from London, from the Heather's Scouts Organisation set a wreath that was , it stood up Really? something to stand it up to it was that heavy, it was the scout's , it was beautiful! Oh lovely. Alright? Oh hello, I haven't seen you for ages! Ah! Right, that's five fifty seven that lot altogether. Hold on, do you want the fifty seven if I've got it? If you've got it yeah. Yeah, I've got it five six seven. Right lovely thank you Ah I suppose I better be off to work. Right. Yeah I don't wanna take a bottle of sherry round, the school will think I'm gonna be on the booze all afternoon do won't they! Something to talk about. Pardon? I say that'll give them something to talk about. Well yeah. While they're talking about me they're leaving someone else alone aren't they? Ya. Not that I'm bothered what they say about me. That's right. Right. Thanks a lot. Ta ta. Cheerio! Bye bye. Yeah tara Val oh! That's alright, just leave it. You don't mind me doing this do you? What?no. That's alright is it? No Alright then. It's that alright. I switch it off now before I go out then ! Ooh you weren't! Oh I did I thought I fancy that. Have you seen what's across there? What he's got in his back yard? No well I ain't do you want anything on there? Oh but one of these isn't gonna be ready for Christmas. You know what he's got geese for don't you? What. they reckon you could touch their beaks ! Oh yeah, yeah 's have got them that was, that funeral was at 's that was her grandma I reckon that's Oh was it? why she hasn't been to school she was in erm the . Oh. Also got a bottle of sherry in here, I th people think I'm going on the booze ! I bo just bought one up the shop for Geoff's mums birthday well she's now Yeah. starting to have a glass of sherry every night, well I thought well Why not! if she can get a few bottles Mm mm/ that's saves her paying for it herself don't it? And I got her a box of Black Magic so that's her birthday present sorted out so she can eat and drink then can't she! Well she don't want ornaments and things like that, does she at her age? They got so many! I don't know what to buy my dad for Christmas but if I Ooh no buy him a bottle of Baileys he Does he like that? loves Baileys yeah. Yeah. Well I mean Well yeah he hasn't gotta buy you don't want Well no. stuff he, you know. See my dad likes videos and things like that but he wa he, I know he likes aftershave, he likes that Old Spice and that so I thought well I'll get him something like that or I thought I sort of saw cos I'm going shopping Saturday, I'm trying to get it all Saturday if I can. I don't blame you. So I thought well if I can sort of get think to myself a rough idea before I go Jonathan's going to Geoff's mums cos Geoff's gotta work all day Saturday you see? Yeah you said that. Well that's something to do with they're working this Saturday and then they break up a bit earlier or something. Oh I see, yeah. Something like that, so I said well that's a good job I'm going this Saturday innit really? Yeah. Ooh! It's a bit nippy isn't it? I'm frozen! I think Mrs won't be there. No, she's gone on a trip, Simon called round he just dropped mother off. Oh yeah she was going with you mum isn't she? Yeah Who has she got, does she know? She doesn't know, I don't suppose she'll know till she got there will she? No probably not, no course she wouldn't I think Jonathan's with Mrs . gone has she? Oh yeah, she's going tomorrow no tomorrow, they go don't though. Tomorrow Ooh! Ooh ! Half past ten isn't it? What this morning? Yes my mother in law. Ooh! She's gonna be there tonight I thought well I always could just well I think I might come over if you've gotta be there. Oh! She isn't bringing the boyfriend is she? She's not, she No she wouldn't would she? She wouldn't! No. Oh perhaps she's gonna try and She might want to stay I don't know. sort of you know, sort of get peace with you again Ooh! Without anything almost wished she hadn't of come Oh! We went down this park cos we wanted to Yeah. and when we walked in she's got her brother and her boyfriend. Oh! And they always go on a Wednesday, they never go on a Thursday. Oh! I mean that's why we went on a Thursday and they'd changed their as a chap that seems very strange to me! Yeah. Because she knows we go once every you know every other Thursday at least. Perhaps she was frightened that she'd gotta Yeah see you on your own. Says she's coming over so what's Oh! you never know! Ooh you ha wait and see Is Graham at work today? No, but, well it Tuesday is his day off but he's got late till eleven this morning. Oh that's alright. And this afternoon, don't know whether to have an exploratory operation on knee in Huntingdon Oh yeah! yesterday and they sent him home last week and he's on crutches at the moment. Oh. So Graham has gone round Morning! Hello Bill be home, it'll be five. Yeah. Perhaps his work has so Has it? Yep. I think that's how it goes, you see, this is Geoff's busy time. Chris said that always like that Christmas time because they have the pay talks in January and they always cut them back Do they? pay talks yeah. Oh! To make them think there's not a lot of work and that you know? Oh yeah yeah So he said yes you know, they say well if you want to be paid it means people'll have to be sacked and all this, well you know! Well yeah that's how they go don't they, yeah. That's right. Ooh! I'm in the infant end today aren't I? Yeah well I me and Margaret should be in the hall but I think they've assumed that there will be less Can go in the hall can't they? They can all go in the hall and then that'll leave me free to go out first like I should do. Well that's right yeah. I was told I should lend that classroom to them I can't ge really get out first and that should be my turn to be out first today. Yeah cos I definitely shan't be out first shall I? No. No and if not that'll be Margaret out first, out of the hall, won't it? Yeah. I mean she'll be out two days on the trot. Yeah and that's not fair, and that's cold today isn't it? No and you see it's just them two I think they could put him sort of like in the hall and if there's a Yeah. he Ask Eric yeah yeah cos there won't be that many will there? Well I wouldn't of thought so, the whole class gonna be missing. Ooh! So really that'd be the best idea but Yeah do you know my washing was virtually dry when I went home yesterday. mine got quite dry finished the ki the kids wet on the radiator. I ju I But my towels were dry enough to iron. Yeah my flannelette sheets were virtually dry just yeah. popped them on the radiator for ten minutes and I i well I ironed them I usually do my bits Well I left it I thought I've just gotta sit down had a they got Daisy. Oh yeah. They do look brown , well! She wanted to play and she wanted to colour and oh oh Oh she wanted to do all sorts did she? oh Then erm said I love my granddad I said what about your grandma? No! I said not oh alright she says, a little bit! She likes her granddad does she? Yeah I said do you love Jack? No, she said because he doesn't love me! Oh ! God she didn't know! She goes I love my friend over there, that was George. Oh yeah ! friend. How old is she now? She'll be four in February. Ooh so when would she go to school? Next September I would think Ooooh! could of been Yeah. might take her September I don't know. Well they will do, cos they do here don't they? Cos she's doing mornings at nursery now nine till half past eleven. And does she like it? Loves it, yeah! Yeah she's that type of little girl, ain't she? Yeah. She's a, sort of outgoing isn't she? Well I said it'll soon be Christmas she said yes not quite four weeks she said. Ha! I What she want for Christmas, did she say? A doll that's got long hair and cries. Oh! Well Julie went and got it the other day that's why fetched her out, to get their presents. Oh. So dad collected her out of nursery and then Julie picked her up when Jack come out of school. So what does Jack want? Well I want a train set and I think one of . Oh! And they want walkie talkie things Oh yeah Jonathan used t out of them. Yeah. She wants this doll, well Julie got it yesterday and said I phoned up, she said you've gotta listen to this she said I've just put a battery in when you want to hear it cry . Does it? The only way you can stop it is putting a dummy in it's mouth! And Oh she'll like that then won't it? So Jonathan wants this erm this Lego set that's got well I have got it actually and it's a big lorry Yeah. with a helicopter and all that on the all on Oh! the back I says So she's colouring yesterday she kept have you got a handkerchief? In my pocket she said, in a minute! Is she still as blonde as ever? Yes yeah ever so blonde. Yeah. That kept it kept getting in her eyes, I said I'll fetch it over and brought it back, put them slides in face no she said, Shaun'll do it! Oh I was all you know Does he make a lot of fuss of her then? Well not ever such a lot and then She just took to him. and then she said I'll go to the toilet she says I can go by myself she says! You're not coming in! So I had to stand outside the door Oh. good job the bolt well the bolts up Yeah. tight, always has done Well that's good. you know and then she come out, I said I'll tuck you no she said, Shaun will! Ah ho! So I thought So Shaun's well in favour so he could look after her, I think she'd stay with him. Oh, some of the older ones down the infant end again Jonathan went last week so I said he Oh what a common little cow! Oh no! I thought he weren't gonna bring them Sue? He weren't all over the sixth form I've not got a to live with! So she said I dunno so I said is it awkward to talk? She said yeah I said alright then so whether they'd got someone there then I don't know. You don't know do you? Margaret's on this tape this time. Yeah? Ooh I don't how old Margaret is fifty two I think. Ooh bloody hell! What? Nice little bump there. Where? Oh yeah ! It seemed quiet in school today, didn't seem so many children, is there? Yeah. I told you about Mr wife didn't I? Yeah. Very poorly! Yeah. Very poorly! That's a shame really innit? Yeah. Ladies, L a d i e s innit? Mm Rurgh! Arrived, A doubler i v e d i v e d. yeah. That bloody erm er what do you call it? er personnel woman was there today. Well I don't know whether Nick went today cos I see his car. I thought he said he'd gotta go somewhere? Oh what a shame! Yeah she was, she was there eight o'clock. Oh! What's the time Geoff? Three thirty innit? Yeah. Am or pm or is that? Am. Well he'll perhaps get an interview fairly quick won't he, if they want people? Ooh I don't know. Cor hey you, we're swearing a lot on that was they doing that for my benefit do you think? No, they always swear like that! Ah you never heard nothing have you! Cor blimey I wouldn't want to be there! F this, f that! Oh yeah. What's the date today? Fourth. Oh yeah it's always like that. Cor I wouldn't like working with that lot then! Mm. Men tend to talk like that don't they? They didn't . No well that wasn't a office in the office. Do you go in there then? I can stay in there they was sitting on the bleeding ! So was Sally. Cos that Australian said er get many more ruddy red ants in here he said, we'll need to start chipping in for the coffee! I said and if when he come in he goes I suppose, they don't want to stay in do they? Well blow me! So he said er Well you were right in checking it, cos you sold her Escort didn't you? Well yeah but I mean I shall have Well you'll have to tell him, you've done it. Well I ain't done it yet, I've only erm Why can't they do anything till February? Well no I'll tell you later June. Oh alright then Er Er you know we're going to your mum's tonight? Yes. Are we? And you know what I wanted, some Fairly liquid or they've gotta go up and get it. Yeah. Oh we can go up to that Fina garage I should think they have it. And show dad what I bought you and him. Right Geoff. Have a look. When I went to Bound Zoo I bought, this pencil, that's twenty five p You didn't go to Bound Zoo Not Bound Zoo er Cambridge. Fitch William museum. Yeah. And I bought that, that was twenty five Yeah. that, was twenty, one pound What is it? fifty five it's a laser box the dragons light up in different colours, look see there's nothing Oy ey yeah. inside it and then for you and mum I bought a little something, it was one pound forty. Oh, a duck. Yes. Mm. Ah I bought that Where was that from then? Fitch William museum. Oh. All of that was so look I know it's really I put them Yeah. with my other little ducks. Yeah erm Ernie's quite a nice old boy. He was very pleasant on the phone, very pleasant. Yeah. Well we were talking about mating. Mm. Oh. Erm Cor it was ever so good at that museum Cor it was ever so tall though! They got them wash house! Yeah Cos you know the wheat house has got five big poles Yeah. well so has this! Yeah I know what you mean. With a load to spare! Yeah. Right, and you go inside, it's got two floors each about floors about as tall as our house! You Yeah. I know. Not all about that, it was . one night . They got a lot about Egyptians though they got Egyptians They ain't got a mask or anything like Tutenkhamen has, have they? No there was only one real mask. Oh well that's I've seen Jimmy. When do you see him? In the . What? half past eleven just now literally just now and er and he basically he don't know about what he's on about. Oh no! Nope, he don't know erm what he's saying is A lovely little man weren't he? that blokes that's erm dro been rigging it who he does the things for. Why? Well, because he said for obvious reasons, he said er I didn't want my name and address mentioned. isn't mentioned in the papers. Now he's gonna wish we'd tell him so he said erm Well what has he done with it then? Oh it was genuinely gone quite genuine, he said you now, he had a , that we know about but it had genuine Cor , it didn't do that! Well there are you don't go near them. Well we'll have to get our own then won't we? So he said choice because it was his property they contacted him but he said what he's done is though right there isn't anywhere near that amount! He said we're talking about eighty or ninety We're short on twenty two. We could we can, ah no no in terms of money he's talking about four or five thousand maximum. Well Where did you get the twenty two from then? Cos he told me there's three hundred gone. Well Jimmy ought to tell her Well you know what he's trying to do, he's trying up the claim so when back, he's still gonna get the amount that he wants so he said t to Jim something about, he isn't paying the insurance I said you're joking! He said I've insured it he said but I ain't paying as well he said! If you're getting all the money he said, you can pay the premium! So erm they're sort of having a few words at the moment. Yeah well that don't help with getting your money though does it? No and what's happened is, he's been up the bank and er the thing has Saved his money. and the thingo's gobbled up his card as he said, well if it hasn't gobbled your card then no problem. If it has There's a problem. we'll have to re-issue another one which could take sort of, you know, this time of year it's over a week so he said well it definitely has. Did he say, I'm desperate for my money! Yeah so he said well what do erm and he said the woman up there didn't really ask what had happened! It was A T S. Why did it gobble his card up then? Well because A T S had gone straight to the bailiff and the courts to freeze his account. Ooh my God! Mm because his account was frozen as soon as he put his card in it took it in! Oh! So he said, can I get a new card? Could you have that done to you then? No. You couldn't have that done to you? Oh sorry, I thought you said did I have it done. Well no cos I ain't got one of them sort of cards have I? His was like sort of a bank credit card but bank said he put the cheque card in and that was only a fifty quid thing anyway. But he Alright. could draw it up to a a thousand pounds on that card I mean And you said he's only just paid it, well That's what he said, if I'd known what I know now, he said I wouldn't of paid it! He says I'd better go and check the money so he said erm but what he couldn't understand was they wrote to him and said that they haven't paid the cheques but they didn't say anything about freezing his account! Well they should by law, surely! Well dunno. So he said erm I said to the woman I went to the court this morning so he said when you explain to me he said I've got money in my pockets cos I borrowed it from dad tha he said I owed sixty two pound so he said I said to the woman in the court how can I pay this the sixty two pounds when you've frozen my account? She said, that's your problem! He said well it isn't cos it's your problem so she said, no I'm sorry, she said, you know it's one of those things! He said well actually I have got the money because I borrowed it. So he paid it? Well yeah but he said without this card he can't get no money, cos he's used what money he had to pay off the card. I don't feel like going up thingamy tonight do you? I do. No. But we ought to. Oh! Well you're only going to grandma's. Going to grandma's, but mum was going up to B and Q. Oh never heard of that. He thought you meant going to Aunty Hilda's. Mm. Mm. Well I'm gonna wash Alright. up when I get back I suppose. Hey dad! doing it. Well I can't wash up, I ain't got no Fairy liquid. Oh I see what you mean, yeah. You know in the erm ooh the London museum? Yep. The ceiling's just cracked, the painting. Well you just can't do nothing! The ceiling's just painted innit? Yeah. Yeah well then this has got all glass domes it's got little patterns and they're three d and coming out! Mm. And the best room is not the Egyptian it's the erm and armour things You loved that did you? Yeah the spear the blokes holding his other horse and it reaches right to the ceiling! Cor! About a bit taller than this house. Oh I used to like making things like that cos he makes things for the London museum. What did? Mm he did. Ooh it's for ages! They ain't very big! No they had a van didn't they? People.. Yeah well he only used to make miniatures he makes them . Does he? He did promise Well he'd bring some down . talking of miniatures my God! They gave old mate some stick this morning! Cos at Peterborough Football Club beat beat Liverpool last night. Oh I bet Yeah. they did. Got in the first division. Did they? And they went and put a poky little old football club in won this well of course they everybody! He stuck hi and he get that wound up towards the end I felt sorry for the poor little soul! E every person went past they go alright Peterborough! Liverpool . Is he a Liverpool supporter then? Mm. So course Who beat them? Peterborough. Peterborough! My God! Oh, brilliant! One nil. One nil! Mm. Ah!! So er he sat there tea break Ooh. and you didn't mean to do it Cliff meant to mess about and make out he's gonna knock his coat over like that And he did. Yeah, and it went all over the table! Well he jumped up, cor he went learing into him! Cliff said, I'll buy you another one, no I don't want another one! Don't wannit, no! Cor he was in a hell of a mood! What just cos Liverpool didn't win? Well no, cos everybody wind him up. Oh why do they do that to him? I don't Cos he said know. it's like Kevin innit? And mum always I suppose it is, that's like that. . But he Yeah. they used to tease him when he first come. Yeah. Cos when he was little in the infants he's ever so tiny weren't he? But a don't matter how big they are He has a go at them. Oh he does! Terrible! What if they were small like him? Well he'd kill them . He's really nice Jonathan. Yeah, yeah I mean cos Ivan says to me, he says, he makes me laugh he said, cos he don't back off does he? I said no he don't. Ooh are there any strawberries in that? That is strawberry. It's You like yoghurts don't you? Yeah. Mind cos it's all down it's strawberry syrup. Ooh it's nice! Strawberries in syrup dad would like strawberries. Yeah. You ever tried a little bit of that? I don't like it. You'd like this one. No. Gosh , you know it tastes crea , don't taste like yoghurt. No. It like Why? Go on try a tiny bit out the corner. No, no I don't Go like no No dad don't want it it might make him feel sick. Well when you finish your tea, just have a tiny bit. No I really don't want to mate, I really don't want to you enjoy it. Cor look at that one! Dad was gonna ring you up at eight o'clock before you went to school and say What for? have a nice day and Yeah. someone was on the phone. Ahh! Yeah I sorted out all my ten p ready to go and they were there. Ahh! Ooh and that girl who left, what was supposed to go Oh I didn't leave till ten past, did I? come in today No. she come in today. Oh! Why's that? Come into work I think it's assumed she'd left but she didn't leave, she di she had enough of it so she had a couple of days off come in this morning and er I said to Steven, no idea what the situation was. Oh! He said yo it's terrible in here he said, it really is, he said I've never known such catty in all my life! What is catty then? Well right old bitches they are! Well they come from the right area, don't they? Yeah. Let's face it. That's right. You can't get any worse than that can you? No cos whenever we go in there they're always moaning if Cliff starts singing or something. No! Oh they go if he starts singing! Why! Cos singing? So he dropped a metal pallet on purpose and course, it makes a hell of a row! Yeah well I would of thought it'd been nice, been nice to have Well somebody happy around instead of miserable. Yeah but he, he is rather loud. Is he always singing? Oh terrible! I wouldn't mention it. I suppose he does it on purpose don't he? Yeah. Never mind singing. I ha I had sort of few, few words with him this morning. With who? Cliff, Cliff . Why? Cos of that come in front again. we do. I never said nothing mm cos Why aren't you drinking that? Yeah when I've had this. I never said anything then he er I could see he'd gone cos he just stood there for about ten minutes like th and everybody else was working, he just stood there like this for about ten minutes by the rack see him doing nothing I never said nothing he come charging through with a rack and knocked all the pallet over what they just stacked up with fifty boxes on so we had to make that right and he stacked a load of L T M boxes which are temperamental anyway and he hadn't pulled the wrap tight so as soon the bloke lift them up with the forklift, they fell all over! They fell over. Ooh Christ! And then I'd I'd had enough and then he started messing about and he started pushing the boxes down through my strapper then, course that messed the strapper up! So I Did it? I was doing the lift. Oh! He said what's the matter? I said well what you do in your private life it's up to you if you want to get drunk and you want to spend money then that's fine but once you step over that clock tower I said and you start interfering with my work it's a different thing, I said well I've and I've just said nothing because although you ain't worked right, at least you've sort of you've work in this factory sort of in the morning, you've got over it but and then Yeah . there's been disaster tonight ain't gonna put up with it! So what he say? Didn't say anything. I said you know, I think you've gotta sort yourself out Lee and everybody went sort of quiet but Paul said I've never had a rollocking! I said well in all fairness Paul, you ain't actually bloody got , I said I don't do it for the fun of it I said and I don't like doing it but I see, he just sort of Well that's silly comment can't be doing him any good! I said well the thing is discipline. If grandma went If the transport into the she'd sherry each. Cor! I said if the transport get that load of L T M thrown back Robin is gonna get it right in the neck! And if Robin gets it in the neck I shall get it in the neck and I shall be getting it in the neck because of you! So I said I think Well then what did he say? I said I can assure mate, I said I shall make sure there's hell to pay! I said but I shall be wrong for not saying anything about you coming to work drunk. So I said I'll leave you to think about that. Well he must of had that amount he must be contin , he must have alcohol in the body continuously. Of course he has he was drinking Saturday afternoon to Saturday night, Sunday afternoon and the Sunday night not Monday night but again last night. So he never gets over it does he? And he went to bed half past two. And got up at four. Before then I should think, quarter to four. I should think he looked like nothing on earth did he? Yeah. Well he's gonna kill his self isn't he? That's right. Anyway he's just rotting his bowel, he'll be rotting his liver next! Yeah I said to him Cliff, I think it's tragic mate! I said that's none of my business, nothing to do with me but I said I should think it's a tragic waste for you and I say, it wastes your money but that's entirely down to you. And what did he say? Nothing. He didn't say a word, no. Well it is a shame innit? Mm I mean, you know when he gave up the drink He was a different man. he was a different bloke, yeah. Mm. And the trouble is you see they all make laugh of it old Cliff, old Cliff, old Cliff! And that makes him worse, really. Yeah well I said to him, what you don't realise is Cliff they laugh at you to your face But they talk at the behind your back! end of the day when you do something wrong they're the first to nip in that office and say what you've done wrong and why you've done it wrong. Yeah,. But I think I shall have a quiet word with him tomorrow morning when I get to work. Gonna see him? Yeah. And say what? Well, you know I just can't sort of let it go on. Well he perhaps won't do it any more now you've told him. As soon he gets his mouth round a Guinness bottle mate, that's it!. Well for heaven's sake, how many does he have? Well it's roughly about five pound and, one pound and I thought he said one pound forty a pint. How many bottles does he have? Well he got through fifty quid on Saturday and Sunday so that's forty pints innit? That's twenty pints each day What and forty pints in a night ! No forty pints in two like Saturday afternoon and Saturday night, Sunday afternoon and Sunday night, he got through forty pints or perhaps just under forty pints but that's it. Well is he an alcoholic? Well he's always been able to drink like that he's . Well he's happy enough behind all this isn't he? Well well I dunno. Well I'm, I must admit I don't know. But I was the trouble What? is He's rotting his stomach isn't he? yeah I mean, and the trouble is what n annoys me more than anything is the fact that he's good worker I me even when he's drunk, alright he don't work at full capacity but he does sort of almost as much as what they do and when he's Yeah. sober he can do more than they do I mean i that ain't the sort bloke you wanna lose, and I'm, when he balls and shouts at them well he gets on your nerves really but at the end of the day I'll you know, I'll put up with it. You can put up with that, good God! Yeah because he's a, he's a bloody good worker but and when he's like Cor! And the other morning disgrace! The funny thing is, like there's a beer smell isn't there? Yeah. But he has got the sort of acidy sort of alcohol smell on his breath just like you'd been on spirits all night or whatever, any sort of you know, wine and it's not a beer sort of smell. But I mean he's I mean Ivan said to me, phworgh, he said when Cliff's breathing over you! I said I know I said, just like neat alcohol innit? God he said! Well I should think that's acidity in his stomach innit? Definitely and he'll say I've got this pain, I've got this pain, I should think you have Cliff! Oh it's not that, no it's not. Where's he get the pain? In his side. In his side? I think he's rotting his liver, that's the feeling. Liver, yeah , exactly. But you see he's that thick . you can't tell him nothing he would say oh no no no, beer's no problem, beer's no problem no it's not that experience, not that experience, I said well you wanna smell yourself Cliff! Cor God! Well I still alcohol. it does. Yeah alcohol And your guess is that he said er bought something Guinness is a heavy drink! Yeah he's That's surprising he don't have such a bad head! No he said er Ah Cor! Well fancy being a like that all that time it's bad enough when you've been out on a binge and you get that headache then. Chris Ivan said to me, he said Cliff wanted us to go and have a drink he said when we've finished work on a Friday he said last night, I tell you, I said I said no, no I didn't! Well how are you all gonna get home? Oh yeah he don't mean that he had a lot of drink, just have a drink and come home. I said well I hope you enjoy . Well it isn't worth it, you can't afford to drink and drive can you? I know. Mel's got her lights up, did you see them? Yeah well yeah. Mm yeah talking about that now he's out the way basically what he was gonna say was, as simple as this . well it don't matter does it? Oh alright then. Yeah no he was just saying that head office they'll dictate to them like anybody else so he said I've got to have erm the mortgage up to date for a start before I can consider anything. I thought you'd done that, you was gonna do that? Yeah but I haven't that's what he saying, but he said what I wouldn't do is ju , don't just say right phrum there's What do you mean? there's a thousand pound he said, you know, if you can make it right sort of over the next month but he said basically I cannot do anything until erm the end of February, he said you come in the end of February he said and then we can start to sort it out, he said I can't do anything for you until then. Did you tell him that? Who? Malcolm. No no point in me well anyway when she She'll know. Mm so he said erm, that's the situation he said but you can forget your business he said, as far as I'm concerned he said, you've lost for two years so he said consequently he said you're gonna lose this year are you? I said well I wouldn't be surprised. So he said well all I can say is he said you wanna just forget that erm And just do it on the money you owe on the house. Yeah exactly don't get involved at all. So he said well how do you feel about your business? So I said well you know, I can't just wind it up over the next six months, I said er what I wanna do I said is erm I gotta carry it on for that transit for that Orion till I finished anyway so it's gotta go another year so I said well what I'm feeling about doing I said is er just sort of keeping a finger in the pie I said, he said, if I'd said tomorrow, if I had finished the whole the tomorrow I've gotta buy a car I can buy it finance so I'm gonna get no tax relief on the H P I get no depreciation no nothing like that I said so at least if I still self employed I can if I have the sort of two or three vehicles or whatever three, four, five vehicles but I said at least I can have some erm and I can then sort of they would be more utilised, where as I said at the moment we got more vehicles than we really need to keep full capacity so he said yeah, yeah fair enough then. I said well that's what is, I said if you look at it the depreciation is so heavy compared with the income, and I said and the insurance as well but I said hopefully cos we haven't had any of er any claims at all this year you know, I said I know but all of the insurances of gone up, but I said I'm hoping that we can sort of get the insurance down if possible so he said, yeah fair enough then. He said well from my point of view anyway at least he said just disregard that completely he said and we will do it on what you earnt, so he said all I can is erm just put in as many hours as you can to get your wages up on that side erm and then by the time we look at that he said, the end of February obviously you'll have December, January and February which will be good months there, I said yeah so he said well then you know erm a hundred pound here and a hundred pound here he said, it all helps to keep the figure up for you so he s Yeah but that don't help us with Malcolm does it? No, but I mean all I can say is basically erm Give him as much as yo , we can, when we can. Yeah. And can you do And he said he's quite prepared to do it, he said, there wouldn't be no problem but he said I cannot do it, he said they are What, is he gonna lend, what's he gonna lend you then? About thirty three thousand but you see what he said is, head office make the rule and he said and they're not No there's no problem that we can No. have it? That's right, he said what But you can't have it till February. Yeah because he said as soon as they see arrears he said they insist that it's paid up and they insist that you have like three months pay them no problem he said Yeah. and then there's no problem. I said no, but he's Well we can manage that probably Yeah. couldn't we? but he's, he give me a a print out, he said well here's your print out look so he said as soon as But you'll have to ring Malcolm and tell him Geoff because he'll be on the phone to Miriam. Yeah but she'll know she'll know that in fact he'll be seeing her. Was he alright? Malcolm or Yeah he just said you did say I can have some more money, I said well yeah. Ah we ain't but you must pay your mother too, Geoff! Yeah yeah. And then there's Andy as well. Yeah well what I think I'll do Well why don't you pu yo well did you use that other thousand? What? Or is that still in the bank? Or have we used it all now? What you on about now? Hang on,yo your losing me! Well you do dad's two you give to him I give him two and a half. Yeah, well then you had that rest well there should be quite a bit in that account because there was only one six that went through for this insurance and there hasn't been a lot more going through this month. No So you got erm quite a bit. Ah but it'll be something few days, you see from cars find out what I've still got on there yeah let me just see. Yeah well come on then cos I want to get to mum's cos I'll do that washing up when I come back shan't I? Oh alright then. Well then tha I hope you should help erm this weekend That's why I sa that's why I told them the weekend I thought at least I'll have something shan't I? Ooh for goodness sake ca can't you write a cheque out for that David! Yeah. And that other one's got to be paid within seven days so we Yeah. Well, how long has go got, till next week? Yeah. Oh. Well we'll send them altogether the weekend hang on, bung it in. Alright then. Alright. You ain't drunk your coffee, do you wannit? No I don't, put it away we've got And I'll wash up when I come back. I haven't anyway. Well you'll have help me when I come back I thought. David.. that'll do. I won't get a Fairy Liquid, your mother might have one. Erm twenty there fifty two hundred ten I ain't gonna bother to count it twenty cos does the mortgage come out of that sixty grand Yeah. dunnit? twenty No, what I'm gonna say to you about this About what? Three twenty twenty five Have you put him in? No, that's what I said, I di , she said to me Get and you lot never told me that Renault went out last night! Nobody told me about that! That's a bloody good job I didn't have a booking for it. Well was it? Yeah but I I'd rather know, cos I,don't know where I am! Erm see Mrs can have The white for fifteen. . Let me cross her out and put fifteen in there. So, put how much money how much is she paying then? Thirty five, that's there. That'll be enough then yep cos that's the same amount of money. Right? Yep. Then the 's want you to fill the bus up with petrol. Do they? They're a hundred and seventy miles. Yeah. Well I'm sure that's why I've put that there look, that's the same colour pen no one else is got anything so it is them. Yeah well why ain't why is bringing that back then? Erm, I think she's bringing that back erm early hours of the morning, at Yeah. twelve, about twelve o'clock. Yeah, fair enough then. So, but what I'm saying is you've got a twelve here and oh well that wouldn't make no difference cos she'll have that back, that'll be ready for them na yeah well then we got a twelve there as well! Yeah well that's what I was gonna say, so forget about the other blue ones they can have that. That's what, that's what I was trying to tell you. Yeah. So now he's gonna have the twelve minibus erm what do you call him? Darren ? Darren yeah. I'll put Darren well that is clean cos I cleaned that up. Well we got a lot going on this haven't we? Mm. And I've got to try and get to work, get home, get my jobs done and get these cleaned as well I don't know how I'm bloody gonna do it all! No. I'm hoping your not gonna be home too late. Well I think I will be June I don't know, I mean that's been quarter to six these last two nights. Well see Carole and them are bringing that back tonight at her erm his son is gonna come back and then Yeah. they're gonna leave that here That's it. so if I get up there and do it early in the morning, well it don't get light till half seven No. well I could do that first I think before I do anything else so that'll mean I've got to do so that if the long is clean No. Is it filthy then? Ha ! Oh get off, sorry darling. Yeah well that's gotta be cleaned as well sometime, for him nine o'clock that morning, well I can't get all that done, by myself! Maybe . Well I shall have to lend that's all. Well that erm well it all depends what time I'm back from you see I, I wanna try and get them hours in tomorrow Well yes. So then that means me fri , I like to leave Friday Yeah. free. Yeah. So the Sierra I can do ready for you to take to Kevin on Fri Friday night is it? Yeah I'm delivering it over there Friday night. Yeah well that isn't a prob well well perhaps that'll be better if I had er long wheel base down here and do that first, that goes out first? Yeah. But how can I I can't get it down here you see, not unless you go and dropped it off like Bring it down and . Yeah well now that bell gone it's out on S Saturday night to Sunday. so you gotta tax that. Yeah. So get your papers ready and everything tonight Yeah. and we'll give it to your mum tonight. Yeah oh yeah. So Well won't do it till Friday anyway will we? Oh no, well don't worry then. So and the estate I've gotta clean up. Now did Jimmy have that, today? Yes, he bought it, that's what I say he brought it back when I was down there. Oh! Where's the little slip of paper I don't know what you done with it, I never see it. So what's today? Wednesday erm What? . Oh well you can write it on again can't you? Do it when you come home I'm just saying a bit No , I wanna do it now. Did you find that other bit of paper? No . Ooh Christ! Well that's there somewhere Geoff, cos I wouldn't throw nothing away, you know I don't. Ah! Oh! oh I've got the Is that it? Yes. Oh bugger me, that was inside Yeah. that book! That's it. Give us that here! And I wanna don't go and lose it! That's definitely I put this is where I put my No. stuff I want Yeah. to keep! I don't care where you put it love, just don't and lose it. In there. Here Jonathan, here's your mat, now Can I have the pen there please? And I must do my cubs this weekend, both of them. Right, so we're talking Ah look! Come on petal. In the fridge? Renault Yep, well I want to get going Jonathan cos I've er Yeah. Do your flies up. then Go and get your shoes on jacket on. Long wheel base Tuesday Cos I gotta wash up when I come back Thursday and sandwiches also. Friday Go on. a hundred and twenty five. Come on love,. Sierra thirty And we need Friday fifty four. I'll turn this off now shall I? What have we go to get? Fairy Liquid. Fairy Liquid. . We thought we didn't know what to buy you and I know you like chocolates and I know you've started to drink sherry, so I thought well I've got another bottle. Saves on hankies don't it! What? Cos there's Reg Reg is having They were what? the heart attack and We got Margaret one of things ! There were plenty of germs What ? we've not, we've not been too good at one of them What death traps ! Oh does granddad have one? oh no! Seeing as it's your birthday, yeah that's right , happy birthday for tomorrow anyway. Yeah that's And there's all around You'll be at cup final on Thursday. the world. Yeah. Let's hope you win. Just as well I've been staying out the way . I won't give it I shan't tell him ! No they're doing that I'm coming home. But a well I should think so, you don't know. something else Well I was gonna change them but you might as well. cos there the most Ooh lovely I do like them walnut. Grandma I what ? Oh look he's a . They're all the same. Or there. Thatcher. Yeah. That's why all I said and they already What's ? ! Mending the cars and different signals. It sounds like that they know as Yeah we got one using six speak to, just speak to me I don't wanna be . . Yeah. Oh no! Well I said that's up . Well I thought well if Ah! we come earlier we can go back earlier cos of Geoff cos you know so I fetched him. Oh . I get to feel like anyway. Well I said I felt knackered when they left here! It were only quarter past one and I finished at and I felt really Yeah. Yeah. What about this one? This one looks to be alright Yeah. Ha ha ha! Well I thought it was a little bit different myself. Yeah. Suppose that'll . I like rabbits as you know. Cor! Look the has got that one, that one, that one works. That's what Susan bought him didn't she, for his birthday last time? He wears this one for school. He's not listening! Oh! That's what he bought today. Oh you've been out haven't you? Yeah. Course you have. And he bought, he bought me and Geoff a lovely Yeah. little duck. I said he are, give him the money to spend on his self! That's right. I didn't as , I did tell you you shouldn't of bought me anything! I know. Really! That's brown ain't it? Yeah but if you put it in the dark it goes all starry. Are you working tomorrow granddad? What? No. Oh. No cos Ken goes to work. Oh I thought he'd finished, he'd finished? No. said could be Yeah. a couple of days. Is that alright mum? No I'll be the best team we've had. 's starts at four. I thought Val said he was having three days holiday? I don't think he'll before at now. Well somebody said Oh! . Otherwise we Well I don't mind. I'll go round there shall I? See Well that's what Val told me. so he said well that's you down but he said he wanted to cut them back. Well he hasn't has he? No well yeah it's up to him what he says. I'll have that one. Alright. I said that's bo , that's bothered me about that bleeding , I like him a lot. Well . Who are they? I never told you I just everything's going round in the room I just had and make the best of it. Blow him! We don't want him grandma that's why he can't get a vehicle from anybody else cos I think he's messed That's right everybody up there! I tell you I think he owe a lot of money. But can you him? Well we've got a tenner to go have we? but I ain't had chance to say to you, but I was saying to cos when I called in and see you think about it he He was desperate to get there desperate! Absolutely Yeah. desperate! Now he's never ever offered to pay that fifty odd quid. Not till today. Yes so and I reckon quite frankly cos he's living on that lay by up the end and I reckon he was hiding, do a runner or something or he ain't up to something no good! Well he weren't gonna have my vehicle. He's such a devious little tyke! Yeah. I even got Ken to try it on us. Did you read them that couple in there? He had what? He had Ken over by the allotments, when he used to stay in the car for a couple of weeks rent. And he went out to pay,first place. Yeah. That's how he was in the first place though. So the young he was Jonathan! he really had me ! Why don't you sit on the pouffe and let grandma sit there. Yeah I'm alright. There's a place there! No I'm alright ! Shift up then! Can't see No I, I didn't I didn't probe him I said what about the money though? Well what a well I said you are a gentleman of the land well he said I haven't got a lot of money. Well I said how would ? Well well I said nor do I. I said we've had so much aggro I said no money no cars!you'll get a car I said I know you will he said! Call the police in. Oh well I ain't bothered! I'm afraid she was rude to us! And I said as well I said We put up a lot with him! I'll go to court. Oh! I said on what well he said it's gotta be well cos Maggie said it's too late I said no you can have it, he said that's I said yes Yeah. on two wheels! That's right. Not on So he won't! I said if you're going to court Neil and if that ain't paid, I said there's Beth can manage they and they paid us out. So what are you trying to say then? I said you're gonna have yo have gone to Cornwall. Oh no he's not! And put the miles on the clocks. That's ve , that's all very well Well you might as well save him his and if he has got the car he's gonna hammer it cos he don't Course he does. at all. Yeah he'd have probably blown the bloody thing up! That . Well I rang you just in case you know I don't want yo how we need the money so I thought to myself Cornwall, twenty eight? I thought well that ain't worth it! But I'd rang the number I suppose it's on you see, well I put the phone down. Yeah it is twenty eight when you think about it, time you get the van up there. Well no. . flipping thing! Up and down You know that they they don't think of that though. You could let they wouldn't let anyone put him in. They'll think that's all . They go to. bloody change that! Well he's a liar! But do you know now would Paragon garage not have a car in in the middle of the week? Honest, I don't know. Well about he erm Rent-a-Van? He'd have them in. And he reckoned he'd been there? He hadn't They got one! they wanted to ! Yeah he's got his tricks! He don't want to come down to me cos I shall send him off! I shall say I'm sorry! That's right. Yes, so are you. I know. So she said. You wanna try a bit of roll? She said No not yet, I've only just had my tea! Granddad gran wants some sherry, do you want a glass? Yes please. Yeah. Half'll do. Half of one. Half'll do. Half of one,half of one. Ken's got a bit more to do then? Yeah. I should think he'll be glad when that's done won't he? Oh it's They've put a on there's And the blinking machines been letting down so much! Who's machine is it? You mean he's gotta pay for it? Does he hire it? Well I, I don't know what sort of terms he's come to I suppose he told them why how much he'd got you see. Oh! Can't just have it so they charge you so much an acre you see and he used to have it. Oh so yo , when you've finished you just take it back sort of thing? yeah. Oh I see. Pork's very nice. What's Geoff eating? Sausage roll. Oh Geoff, you've only just had your tea ! No I can't eat one. Ooh I can't eat one yet. What's he doing? There's some Jonathan mind! we got held up Don't open that one! we we couldn't find out what's wrong with it. Let grandma open which one she wants! The last time the chain come off come off, as I say, just come undone and it's What's grandma done with her nest of tables? and she hadn't. . When the chain brakes she said Oh blimey! if it brakes down there's there's taking it up to top sprocket so it comes off you see. Yeah. Then it don't quite work right then. Yeah. Well it shouldn't it it did i but if you just went up to the top they got a pair of I should think about four or five lengths they had to take it off the sprocket and er course you see they Grandma let in front, then they've gone down! Yeah. And Ken said no way can we do we gotta take take some off. Aha. Mm. That's what I'd like. And I was, I was there we put it under the , on the bar you see , we were changing, blocking up, blocking them in there and the that just would not go up! Mm. So what it was th ch ha the chain couldn't give up you see. Oh. Cor isn't Mr a weird looking ! Well the chain Will you the bit takes it up to the Oh! to the top And went. Oh ho oh oh! top of the but it stops losing . Haba, haba, haba! Has to keep it coming out there. What have you given me that for? Turn over Just in case you want some had to put some time for Give us a bit more light dad please? I was amazed. Bet What have you done Jonathan? Let me take that off of there. I tell him he won't forget will he? Who? I won't cos No. I'm going out you see, so I've got to Yes. make the best . Gosh! Well You got my glass Jonathan! Here you are. Look . This is your wife's birthday here. I know. Oh boy! I said I was looking I said where's grandma, I put that ne table there is that alright? What table? Yes course it is. Well I thought what's grandma done with her nest of tables? So I was looking for, I didn't know where it was and I thought well Well when I you see I used to push the settee in pull it out I thought well I don't know I might as just as well leave it here. I think it looks nice like . So do I. I have it when Des and Doris is here you see. It's more homely. Yes so I Well on the phone you'd think he was business ex ec the way he talks! Well he used to be he owns the other factory now. I know . What does he do now then? Well they, they just you know they they just have this erm craft sort of, they do stall and and they make stuff for the shop they had he had a couple of retail shops, he had a factory yeah I think he said he had fifty two people working for him. Cor he isn't keen on this! Cor I am. Then he said he had some Oh can I have it? bad debts or No. something sort of, nearly finished him! What do you say? We know how you feel! He always pays you though don't he Geoff? No problem at all. Oh this is . . Mind grandma, it's a bit strong. most he said, don't get done. In what one? Well er you know Tony says oh we want this and we want that he shall have to employ somebody to do, do them so there's no , just get involved Cor! with too much Ooh ! Yeah. We ought to had Emma here now didn't we? Yeah she likes a glass of sherry don't she? We ought to had Yeah. Get them out together. Oh! I don't think a glass of sherry hurts them. Oh! It makes you sleep. I should think you'll be tired tonight anyway Jonathan. Cor yeah! Well you wanna go What you ? he's been going to bed too late! Oh, the night before me and we went to bed, had a lovely night and then last night we couldn't last. I don't know what I'd have done if we had a . what they call a . Yeah well what Well Jonathan couldn't get to sleep last night. Cos I had a blocked nose. Ah. He's got a Did you? bit of co well I said he's come in ain't he? But that . Yeah. But you see he don't feel the cold! but But I made him put his coat on. yeah? Didn't get them on. That's ten He yards. He drinks it too quick. Yeah. Well that don't hurt does it. And er Kevin Why, a couple of sherries isn't gonna I . make or break you is it? It's when the They should help you to sleep really. Why not? That's what I'm saying, I never seen ! Can I have another one now? See I never heard them I Not yet! looking at. Drink too much, cor! but we painted it all What, you mean you granddad. drink too much? Can we have one of those things? Well, I don't one glass one alright, I go . and fill it again! Well that won't hurt you! Right,granddad. Couple of glasses of sherry! Then I go I had two glass fulls And that's and mum had two glass fulls, but she didn't drink hers so I had four glass fulls. My when it hit the side of the Ooh well it hit the tractor Mm. Don't mind that . I always Ooh! find sherry burns my stomach! tear in it and th holes in it. Here I feel it here. No I feel it here I do. But it er Yeah when it goes down Take some I had one yet, I'm gonna I weren't gonna have one Yeah. cos I've only just had my tea don't say but I will try a little one. and then wash her back We haven't long had tea! shelves and Very nice. I'm gonna sit there st so er Daddy went and fetched he he put the washing in the Where is Blackie? goes in the wash and and put some oi shut up! me and him you see. Yeah. Gonna let her out. aren't you gonna let her in? The man said Go and get her in. Shall I go let her in? so he i he, he just put them put the washer in and, and just take care of it. Yeah. I said I've ruined this tracksuit haven't I? Shall I go and get her in? You'll have to erm before we have any help in! then he said Yeah. I said the funny part about it was we never had at home so when you bring her out shut that door that's the we wanna, we're gonna up I said town oh going up town and then turn the off was or not, What you mean? The kitchen door. Yeah. I think June. It's alright now they've got at I know it is, I see you picked the er figures. and the join, and it fell off That was the only . and then gone back! Ooh ooh! I had to say, say well I never where the hell did that come from? Geoff he pulled out . Did he? Yeah. and the machine wouldn't work so Well Geoff did buy me some sherry glasses he says oh, you give me two like very similar to this. What colour's the Oh! little boy in? Mm. Then he said er er er You make nice pastries, nice and light. I said to dad, are you getting too , he said I'll work late I know what And everything's very nice , lovely! Mm. Because you want the right size join what you put in they hadn't got any, no more of these No I said to Geoff well I hope he don't come back. Who? They're supposed to That bloke, I don't want him coming . Well dear you won't worry, I'll shall soon tell him to ! You ought to you ought to say to him, I shall ring the police, you come round here any more! people in the, in the bay I wouldn't No I'm not! I don't want him, it worried me that he might come and bother your mother. Yeah. No! There's no this time. I can stick up for myself! Oh! So he won't you just don't I did that I know you can. old bloke! End of the day and if you don't let him in, he don't have to have any No. anyway! Well I tell you something if he ke , if he does start to hassle us I shall ring the police and I shall tell them! Mm. I should use I shan't have no qualms about it, I shall say well he's hassling me and my mother-in-law and we can do without it! That old boy that I spoke to, when his he was with his daughter, I said you give me my bloody keys and you money! I gotta move! I said well there's a wheelbarrow down there mate! Rent-a-Van's up there. So she come the other day, she said well my dad is like that. She wants to come in. I said well he's not gonna Ha! be like that with me my dear, I said, tell me how to run my son's business! That's right. Well what are we going to do? I said well that's his hard luck! Pardon me! I'm sorry! I said I almost charged him sixteen instead of twenty six! and it's Brurgh! Oh. I said it's funny, I said, but now when you're trying to help don't mind these well you can't take no notice of that, I said I'm afraid I do! That's right. So he went so away we went. Hello Blackie! Hello! They like that, Cor she's getting a fluffy coat isn't she, now? Well it's like with them gypsies weren't it ? Yeah. Now the policeman wouldn't go! And you went after them? my mother's Well it's like me innit? Oh ! Well Geoff's nearly got a smack in the ear hole today! Yesterday. Well yesterday. your glass again now? No, she hasn't drunk the first one yet! And I worked on the till this morning I said to . what? Yeah she is quite cold isn't she, on the phone? What annoys me, she told me to have them plums! They don't belong And he had to me! She said don't tell such bloody lies, I said he's going in caravan! Who's is that caravan? So her head come out what's the trouble? I said he's only got a bag of my plums! What do you mean got a bag of your plu ? I said I saw him! I said he's, he's been right back past my window! You, you, don't he said, I'll down to you, I said I don't bleeding first! That's alright. I said to that caravan I get upset! He said well I ain't going up there! Well I said I'll go with you but he did he eventually go? That policeman, did I go with . him or did he No. No he wouldn't dare! No. Unless he went with a team I don't know. And you went and he didn't? Yeah! Ken said my mother's just been well I'm not going. Innit marvellous! He said we're not to go any more on our own. Can I have another sherry please? Yeah, he said we're not supposed to go on our own! now she won't change. Well I suppose yeah cos they could set on him on his own Yeah. he wouldn't stand a chance would he? Oh no God ! They , they normally have a back up all the time don't they, policeman? They're never normally on their own are they? Well I mean he was stealing and then, what about that time when I rang the police to say he's nicking apples out Grandma. of here. sherry please? And he said I gotta see him pick them! They won't cha , you won't chase him I gotta catch him! Well I said if you stand there long enough I said, you'll catch him! I sa Yeah what makes me laugh they come with the blue lights flashing don't they! Yeah. That's right. You know cos And then give theirself away don't they? yeah , people scarper don't they? Yeah! I said I saw the boy come over the Ooh I reckon there was an accident today on the A seventeen erm What time? Ooh it's early in the morning. Yeah well I said to you There was skid marks all over and the traffic was right back down the A seventeen, when I got there it Would it be sort of before your dad went? Perhaps say quarter to nine? Cos I saw two police car go along there. Might have been. They were flashing their lights. Wouldn't like to say really cos then you when you start at quarter to five No you you haven't got no idea of the No. time sort of pass But I did hear this one and I run to the window By the time we do our morning and the , you're then getting up sort of thing you see Yeah. this is it. And then it's And then there's two police cars going towards Wisbech I saw them mummy. flashing Ah! lights. What's the matter dear? So it no this is broad daylight I want another glass of sherry. You better ask grandma. He wants another glass of sherry grandma. What time? It'd be broad daylight so it'd be a bit later. And that's all you have, you don't have Yeah. no more Jonathan! Oh! Must be about nine time well what time does dad go? Oh that'd be about quarter nine. Oh it could well of been then, yeah. Yeah. aren't you feeling very well Jonathan? Got all my cake and no shopping for me. He's got a bit of cold that's all. I'm hot. I think he's had a busy day. Oh Perhaps getting a bit tired. I'm hot! There you are that'll perk you up then. Yee hee! What do you say? That'll make him warmer. Thank you. Well done. Oh ! Glug glug glug glug glug glug glug glug glug glug! Ooh you naughty boy! Anybody else? You what? Shall I do you one? Yeah might as well yeah. I'll have one why not. You'll soon finish that bottle! That's don't matter, I got another one. That other one what was it? Yes. Oh you didn't ought to have open that, That's what I said! It don't matter that other ain't done. Oh innit? Oh No. Oh I thought it had. no. Oh we didn't to drink yourselves. Oh well go on! Had a drink. It's about twenty one Yeah. We'll have to make sure we get a bottle of sherry in for Christmas Geoff. Mm. Well we usually what do we usually drink? Sherry I like that yellow whisky stuff. I'd better not drink any more! that Warninks. Oh advocaat you like? Yeah. I do like that. Daddy what happened if you go glug glug glug glug glug? You'll go lug lug lug lug ! You'll burn your throat and you'd feel very Yeah and you wouldn't be, feel very well. Ah! Dee dee dee. You won't have it if you're gonna drink it quick. Just sip it Jonathan sip it at . Did you have another one? coming at and again. Yeah? Yeah? Ooh crumbs! They'll try and knock the old cars off the road won't they? That's Cor! what they're trying to do. Dad? Well you can't you know I need some whisky! I know your car's getting old but i i it yeah but it don't look erm It take that rust. But you get some, they're full of rust and it makes you wonder Oh it's terrible how they keep on the road, don't it? We've seen them, they seem to and the mud guards hang off! And I met some of them cha you know that chap and Mm. it's fascinating! Yeah that's right that's right. Well you'd you'd think they wouldn't want them on the road cos if they had an accident the people would get killed, they'd just Well my one crumble wouldn't they? er car park about a fortnight ago. . Well I wonder however that that got through to touch that. Yeah. Course th the one of the wings wa , was bashed inside, they were hanging off! Do you wanna finish that thing? Yeah. Oh? Do you want finished. There's people out they was in, it was the paper the other day about about the da , about the arresting people. Yeah. Yeah. That's that girl who you knew. when was that other one? Yeah that's it. How did he do it? little girl. Yeah. And they He's a big old boy , John ! that the wings ho hold on Big fat slob! Is he? Cor is he! Is he as old as Jonathan? Same age ! virtually. Yeah. Well when he was so and it Actually do it myself What are you doing? can't he? Yeah, If someone lifted the gearbox Erm it's gone forever! when he was a little Yeah. baby, he was I said I've such a puny sickly looking thing! I've done a hundred and twenty thousand But and the gearbox was as the day they come out! cor his head and shoulders taller than you isn't he Jonathan? No. He is, he's he's a He isn't. lot bigger than me. Is he bonny? Ooh yeah! He weighs He comes to there on me. How much no he's tall , lot ta bigger than that isn't he Geoff? He's a lot taller Oh yeah. About there. than Jonathan, John is a big old Well Ricky comes boy isn't he? Ricky's only there. How much does J erm John weigh? Nine and Nine and a half. Nine and a half stone? More than me! So anyway Well weighs ten and a half! Losing that old Datsun they got hold Well I said I think that's far Yeah. too fat for young girls! Yep. Mm. Datsun Cherry. Oh she's like a bull Yeah. elephant! See if her m Oh yeah I saw her didn't I? Well if her mums was to slim her down now. She's going no in second gear. Norma 's little girl, is she as fat as ever? try to pull Yeah. parts . Well no she did go on a diet, she used to go and see a dietician at the hospital. Who's that? Kerry I'd, she used to come round and help I think Erm. she weighed nine and half didn't she? . And she's what? Nine years old. What walked to She's er and back again. Do you Yeah. mind if I have a cigarette? The head the youngest nine and a half stone year old! I want an ashtray, go get us one. You hasn't started it mum! All the shout No I know I ain't started it! I don't have to rush! Well I haven't started! I'll take them round like that! Yeah. Can I have some? No you're not having No. any more of it! No . ! You shouldn't drink it quickly! Ooh you'll go without When we got straightened up we can If you can have That's wrong to drink all that ain't it? That was like that. put you off. Yeah. If if I think I'm it'll be and then alright. and then e everybody In a minute. when he's when he's facing this way He wants sleep Yeah. sleeping. wouldn't of helped us. Well I'm hoping he's gonna go to bed not too late tonight. Ooh your dad and I will sleep like a top. Yeah. If I said to that Mrs I thought , I thought we'd go to erm . What's her name? . At any rate he ? he he'll be alright . Why does have that fish? Says he's cooking I told you . Mm. front of the drive. Why doesn't nan have Yeah. that big tall one? I did, I didn't even like to move Well granddad uses that. round there and Oh. that's And Norma used to say, I don't put them to bed with Charlie because they don't go to sleep, in and out of bed she tried the bed's . That's right. So Where you going Jonathan? I was ta I'm going to get something. I was talking to Mrs I said what about it? Your little old come up the window and No. pulled the curtains back. You still I said now that one's baby in there. Cor! I said I'll spray Well I te is it, you know how no. cos I walked home with Liz tonight Oh. cos, I had to go and pick Jonathan up didn't I? Cos it was getting dark and he hadn't got his light No. on and I didn't I said to him I'll come and meet you a I said you can come to the hall cos that's ever so light through there Yeah. cos all them,so oh and talking about that, I see the Manor House er you know the one on The Chase 's. I see that all lit up look at that, look nice! So I thought I bet it does! cor blimey I could live in there! Yeah. That looked really lovely! Oh yeah what was I saying erm About Liz and coming meeting Jonathan. Oh yeah, so I walked with her. Well her little granddaughter's a lovely little girl! Well then I But she's immaculately clean! Yeah well her washing, that girl's washing and that, I think that used to be lovely! Well I don't know what's happened to Kevin. Well I don't know what's happened to Kevin then! Cos that little girl's immaculate! Yeah. Look what I got, a ! Well Liz used to No we're not playing that tonight Jonathan, we've come down to sa talk. and then she used be spotless at one time! Her washing, you couldn't touch her! I don't know what's happened to her! Well sh saying. Well he can play with the bits. I bought the trotter out. We're not playing it, not I'm not tonight! tired! Toys and It's just toys, it's not Lotto look! Look! He said Lotto! too thin, ooh I'd love to stop Oh yeah I thought he'd put Bless you! That was your dad's. Was it? Mm. and Brian bought you that didn't they? Some more belonging to it in there look Jonathan, that other thing there. What this one? The trailer. This it? The trailer The did. trailer. You don't see that sort of thing now, parts No. do you? And I suppose that's the in This didn't did it? Wouldn't think so, I mean that's probably An Air Force thing. Well ! They've only Where? Must have the whole army nearly! We see a tank like this wha , on a like this one of these a man in a jeep What you mean Right? today? Yeah and we see a lorry with a bloke he was doing like that looking out the back and we all go Ahhhh ! What real? Yeah. Oh! Where did you sit on the bus? Er in the middle. Oh you didn't sit on the back seat then? No, not at all. When we went to er Zoe's place there they'd got some tins, that Megazone tin what I've got Oh yeah. on the shelf. Had Yeah. they? Yeah, and that other one what I put my stamps in. Yeah the one. I said well I got some of them ! Old Oxo tins and that Yeah. er Yeah cos you oh we used to have, when we used to go on the strawberry field See. we used to have lu er our lunch packed up in one Oh yeah of them Oxo tins yes. didn't we? Yeah. them Zube sweets don't they? Yeah. And I laughed I, They make all them bon bons don't they at the moment. Well is she upset cos we're sitting on her seat? Well you perhaps won't believe me but I sit where Geoff is and she gets right against me and there's all this to spare isn't there granddad? Yeah but they like to be close. And if I come here Like we like touching me. Yeah my cat then she'll go to me again. does. Yeah. Look. But cat's do I think. Lucky! But she's She can't hear you Jonathan. she's looking ever so well at the moment and she's eating. Ey! She does look nice. when I come and press that , right Geoff? Com , coming out the back tell me how just as I'd gone by the door and er Can't I have another, another drink please? anyway course they had a meeting No, not yet! you knew I'd be coming It's no use going up yours I kept calling him back! He would not come back! He he knows he gets a meal when he comes up there. We should . Yeah somebody's been in the garage! Why? All the stuff's back erm, food for the birds has been knocked over. Oh! Every time you leave That's that food around do you know that bloody ginger cat, I'm not kidding you No well they're I feed that ever so well! Urgh what's this? And do you know that still getting on! Well they will . He couldn't do that. He does. Cor crikey! When I feed the birds she'll go and pick it over and I see today I put her Have you got your Christmas tree? some little bits round the fence first then I put her ordinary food on her hut and do you know that little old beggar was Checking it over. moving the her own food and digging out theirs ! Ooh she's a bad ! She does look well though, don't she look lovely with a big glossy coat? She's always Oh I don't think anybody would beat beat my cat's coat though. No. A there isn't that about today. Oh! She doesn't call him the vet when she's She's gotta say v e t, cos erm he don't like it! Cos if he sa , if he says vet he goes meouw! Yeah. He don't like it. What's the matter with him? Well he's had bad breath she calls him dragon's breath! He's had bad breath for a long while and she said his tee , cos she tried to clean his teeth with a toothbrush. Oh yeah. So she said she'd got some of the scale off but she couldn't get u all of it on and she said these last, well three or four weeks she said every time he eats his food he goes meouw and runs away and he can't eat! So she reckons he's got a bad tooth. Could be that. So he's having an anaesthetic today. Mum well Susan took him this morning so he was to have it done early at eight I know he was. And mum was gonna pick him up dinner time cos he is so Who? frightened! Yeah. And they don't like him there cos he makes too much noise. That one? Well then that's then their plan to get rid of them all. Well they do, they like to get rid of them. Susan said well I'll try and get rid of him as quick as I can. Yeah. So I shall have to ring her tonight when I get home, see how she got on with him. Well I rang mum That's what you think! but she weren't there so, whether and then I rang down Susan's, I thought they might be there but nobody answered the phone, so I thought well Well I do know about this one. Is that one yours? But that's a shame when they don't like it isn't it? Oh yeah. car, a police car. Is it? But Susan said last time he disrupted all the other cats and dogs! Yeah. there. Said he ma he makes, she said he makes such a funny noise! But you see he don't like being caged i she said if you sit No course not! him in the car he'll sit there. Yeah. But she said you put him in his box, and cover it up, he don't like it! That sat as good as gold till you got to Colin's didn't he? Good as gold and he was like old man on the seat! As soon as you've him collared what does he do? Hey? Did he?didn't you have catch him I don't know. something like that ! Something like that. She said she ! He'd get down . Now Guzzy tries to get in the vans and that when I'm cleaning them. Oh yeah she does. Does she? I mean does. She does, yeah. She gets up there It's ever so funny! she just hangs round when you But ju I, I tell you something tha I reckon she's going through a mad state! Do you know did I tell you when she was asleep the other day? In the boiler cupboard on top of all the shoes! Ah! And then she'll sleep she won't sleep actually in the airing cupboard, she'll sleep so the door's wide open and she's half way across the la , and she sleeps you know Across the landing. you know the toilet? She shapes her sor self round the toilet! Oh no! She'll sit on the toilet half shaped When you want to go to the loo you've gotta put your half way no you gotta put your legs over cos she wouldn't move out the way! Oh! And do you know, I di Gosh she up there I didn't tell you did I? The other day she sat near her water bo , well you know how they sit with all the their little paws in? Oh yeah and they do she sat there right near her water bowl looking at it! And I thought whatever's she sitting there for? When I looked she ain't got not water! It was empty. I said well she couldn't of told me any more could she? No. But she seems to plonk her body down anywhere don't she Geoff? Anywhere yeah. Just plonks down! Mm. And she lays all on top of the all on top of the dressing ta and she's never done it before has she? No. She's on top of all my dressing table, she she don't knock nothing off! That's what and what time's that chap don't he? Yeah Yeah. and when she'd jumps she lands she rolls over. Ah that ain't dangerous is it? To er Yeah. Yeah? They didn't come right on to the when I was Wasn't that was it? moving on the bottom shelf Yeah. and they was hanging Oh it couldn't and when she wanted to come out she'd hook Oh! the door on the side and that and that kept slipping down her! Yeah . And she and she she'd been out she wouldn't come out This one mum? she made sure nothing was out there. Did she really? She didn't come out! This one mum? Oh our cat's most peculiar! I might have one of those. Yeah. Well those two on How long we had her? Mum? How long we had h , we had her when we had erm she was a kitten when had Guzzy when Guzzy was, weren't very well, and that was just before Guzzy weren't very well, cos she didn't really like her did she? No. So how old is she? Was she a stray then? Well yeah didn't we find her on that, I tell you About last year. when it was when I had that little Renault Five because erm, she used to she used to get under the bonnet didn't she? When we used to go to school in the morning I used to have to lift the bonnet up to see if she to nineteen eighty eight nineteen eighty eight we got rid of that. Oh so she's So she's three year old. Well it's, eight eighty nine ninety, ninety one. Three. I've had her more than three years surely? No Yeah. Yeah but erm before then Four. since we've had her Oh yeah. yeah but what I'm saying is, it was somewhere between eighty six and eighty eight cos you had the Renault Yeah cos since eight eighty six and we got the Uno August eighty eight. Yeah well didn't someone we found her didn't we? We did. Yeah well Well we found her. when I worked in old Blackie that big old black Yeah that's terrible that! bought her over Can you We could But she couldn't drink milk could she? No I think erm And she was a bit blind in one What? eye! Hardly see could she? All her eye was stuck up. Oh her eyes were all stuck up and that. And we started to feed her didn't we? And we gradually bought the dish nearer the door and then she gradually come in didn't she? Yeah we used to leave the door open, she'd come in and out again and then she would Cos Carole's still got Blackie. No Blackie got co , run over didn't he? That's Louey! She's got another black cat. She's got Louey now! It's Jason's her son's cat. Oh no Blackie got killed one night last year. Ahhhh! Yeah. Ooh Carole was Ohhhh! absolutely devastated! Weren't she Geoff? That was the night of her party weren't it? Yeah, the night of her party. Or the day time of her party. Ahhh! Well she reckoned there was , cos they were, they had a lot company there Yeah and she didn't like it. yeah and he went and she said well it that'd always been across that road Yeah. and erm That's but the boys who have knocked him down come and told her didn't they? Yes. Went round Vals didn't they? They went round Val's and Val said ooh no she said I think that's Caroles. But they did pick him and tell her. Well that's good of them then. Well no, they went and picked him up didn't they? They told her though. Cos there was a one like I know. granddad saw it, one like a little while ago, that got killed. Mm. I reckon somebody put it on the . Well there's a cat, I don't know who's black and white cat it is it comes from the council houses and that stands in the middle of the road! It lays down in the middle of the road! I know. I thought ooh my God you get a fast car round here mate you won't Ooh, ooh I forgot! dicing with death! About three minutes after nine. Terry from hire is coming for the red minibus. I've saved the pussy. What tomorrow? No tonight. Oh! I bought it round and the keys are in it. Oh he did really need, he ring you? Yeah. Yeah but he always seems to want some I saved a pussy yesterday. I never liked him Erm ringing up. Doo doo doo You know. doo doo . Who's this, who did I Well ! say got the Belmont at the weekend Geoff? That lady yeah ? Yeah she did Yeah she did. ring me Miss . She ain't been for long while has she? No. I told her you'd be home about quarter or twenty past. What was I gonna say erm what's on the in your Sunbeam? Well they was here, was it, two minutes after one and they was begging for a . So how much Mummy! did you charge them? Can I have another sherry please? Haven't said yet. . I think they went early to get back early. Grandma Well can I have another sherry this time? bloody . Well I dunno, that's what that's a better priced. No I sa cos I went up Wisdens at quarter to four and I see it in there then. Oh! Oh perha what time did you go back today? Today? Yeah. the time today. Oh well then that's perhaps a bit before one then, not after, it was about ten to one then perhaps. Was he nice? He had glasses ever such a nice feller. Well you can't charge them too much for that or you'll pick the minibus my dear, I said the white one Either it's white or black ! After all he's in the yard. Yeah he'll understand. You'd better ring Ca Carl tonight, sort out that battery. Yeah. Well if he's there that is cos Joanne was bringing the car back. Yeah. Where's Carl supposed to be then, at work? Well I reckon he's Mm got a job on today mm mm Yeah. mm Chris his erm daughter's had her baby. Oh what Carl's daughter? Yeah so he's a grandfather. I didn't know he'd got a daughter! So he's a grandfather. I knew he'd got a boy, but And yeah cos I said to her well what do we call you then? She said aunty she said I'm not gonna be called a grandmother! At twenty five! is that all she is ? Twenty five. Looks a lot older that that don't she? Can I have another sherry please? No. Well I don't know cos I went up there once and she was Well I don't think so she was going out and she looked really good. That's right, yeah she is, well actually she is But when she's in the garden her hair anyhow. Grandma. Yeah. It puts ten years on her don't it. Yeah. Yeah well I think anybody does Grandma? if your hair's Yeah. untidy you feel unti Marion looked well didn't she? Can I have another sherry Yes. Well she had jeans and erm you said I could have another sherry ! sort of nice sort of boots on and a sweatshirt tucked in and a belt on she looked like a teenager really. Yeah. Yeah. You're not having any more after that! No your not! No more! When I said you, Look grandma will be drinking that bottle! That'd be a job mummy! Well it isn't gonna take Might take you very long. Well I said to drink the Yeah well it's bottle, I might drink the sherry in out of it to sell. Ooh we got No that's it, you don't have no more! I got a job for you, I don't like having you Saturday night! Such a lot of trouble! Ha! What're you gonna do Saturday? I'm going to get my decorations down, will you Ooh! do them for me? Yeah. Yeah I'll get you the box and you do as you like put them up as you like I don't Okay. care I'll get you some drawing pins, I got them. Okay. Yo , you go what you like. You like doing those don't you? Mm. Put them where you like. Ha! You'd drink, you'd think you wouldn't think a child would like sherry would you? Yeah I know. I thought granddad's was fizzy pop. No, but I did you drink your sherry? Good old dad, that'll do . No! But they won't, they're the whiskys. A sort of Oh you thought he was drinking pop? Mm mm mm ah ah! He drinks it too quick Jonathan, as I said that ain't the drink you should drink your granddad and if he says he's going . That's right yeah. Dad don't dad don't drink any more does he Geoff? Cor! He used to have a bottle of whisky a week but he don't have any now he ain't had it for a long time has he? Well that gives him indigestion. He don't take any notice of me, I don't . Is on yet mum? I said to Sally , how's Norman? Oh he's alright!! Oh! I'm alright! You got your Christmas cards yet grandma? I got what? Have you got them? What to send away? No, I got some. How many? You ought to get them out of Superking they're quite nice. Mm. Down the bottom end there one they aren't ever so dear, one forty something. Oh what's his name I thought patronises you. Yeah . What about selection? I asked him if he's gonna sell them, I thought well he patronises Yeah. get Well I got mine from Superking I never ordered them did I? No. Well he, he don't go you'll see He said I was talking to him earlier on, I Yeah. just never thought. He's a good old boy. I could just, just eat this leg! That was him on the door. Ooh I told you didn't I? Mm. I could drink a pint of this. He's drunk that! Now that's, no more don't ask for You won't get any more! No, cos you'll do else you'll you'll be like grandma was at Mrs You'll be drunk! foot on the floor. Could I get drunk? I had a Uncle Ron. Ooh He don't go out so much now does he? No. Staying another night. Dad, could you get drunk ? He goes whenever . Yeah. And I suppose if he's in there That's what I just said when he went up there you see. I said I dunno how they afford it, I said I can't afford to go out one day a week, No well Ron don't go out with him. He said the last time I went out he said was December the fifteenth, I said, and I'll tell you something else, that was the last time I went out. So that's Tu we er Thursday. Thursday. Mm. one, two, three, four, five . Oh no, we've been out since then haven't we? When? Well you went to Carole's. Ah ye , no I mean like go out for a But I mean for a meal or a Yeah. drink a drink. Oh yeah that is, yeah that is right, a year ago yeah! Well the trouble is you can't afford it! That's the No Yeah daddy said it's Sunday. I'd love to go out for a meal. I said well my dear we can't afford it so you gotta have what I do. Yeah well we, we haven't been out for one I know! since last year. I know. We haven't been out at all. I mean you could get a decent meal What? I can't I can't eat a full meal though ! We can't eat a full meal anyway and they charge Yeah. you the earth! I wouldn't wha , where was that place in town we was looking at? Hoh! Where we said that looked ever so nice! Oh you know the ? Four pou , that was only four pound something! You go down Hill Street What in the ? Yeah and there's er as you go over the top there's like a postman's passage and you go past where you turn into it there's in the corner there. Oh yes. Well then you can't drive only about ten yards further than that then it's the conservative club on the left hand side Yeah. and then nearly next door to the conservative club, the chap that's hiring the minibus from us is called The Horse Fayre Tavern. Oh! We said we might go in. And then just as you go in the sort of crossways the new Horse Fayre shopping precinct sort of thing Oh yeah. and er they got a board out there and had that sort of three twenty five and things like, that's very good. Oh! Cos I'll tell you who Cos they do, me and Jonathan love lasagne we do, and they Yeah. do lasagne on there don't they? Do they do Well every Sunday we go to Sadie's that flower pot place there's twelve or thirteen cars out every Sunday! Must be ki quite good then. It must be, cos it's changed hands. Why don't you pull your jumper down Geoff? Cos he's silly! He's enjoying his self, aren't you boy? Cos he's hot. Good God! Do you know Yeah. Geoff's put all that weight back on he lost? All that waste of money! Have you? That don't matter. Well he said, we didn't think he'd lost weight, that'd he'd toned his muscles up. . . Yeah. I put on one kilogram. Yeah and I . I said I couldn't finish it put it down. Can I have some please? But I now I don't pull the wheels you see, I ain't pulled the wheels you see No. have I? No. Less than four months and now and that She's had a real spruce up. Jonathan don't! The only problem I used to find was when I used to pull the and get cramp terrible in here. I know. Oh yeah. And I said I don't thi , he said well I don't get it! I said no but you're taller and you're Yeah. pulling a different way, I used to pull it with my legs he pulls it with his back. You know where she wants to go? Where? On the mantelpiece. Well Jonathan's going out, he's gonna the Oh are you going? Yes. Go fetch the flowers there. cor he said, I'm I'm going out plus my back my he said, I don't have to keep stiff, I said yeah well that's where you're pulling it but Yeah I have to pull it with my legs. Yeah. So don't you fi do it at all? That's why I put on the weight, I just stand there all day you see got a load them in and press the button that's all I do all day, I don't move! Gotta put it in there. Bleeding hell! No I didn't, get off! I literally don't move! You're not going, can I have one of your ? Yeah this is what I put them there for. . Ooh! Well Geoff did. My legs are wobbly ! At the end of day I Mm my mum makes these. Are they alright? a word he's saying! Nice. Dad said they're nice. That's bloody hard work on them ! Well I shan't look forward to going home and washing up. Mhm Oh come on. Well we said last night, we didn't think we was ever gonna get to bed! Cor every time I paint, it bloody rains again! Well don't Jimmy that's what I told. I tell you what mate, he's a . Yeah. Very . Why? I should think I'd Well Well they sho when they and they freeze your bloody bank account like that he I mean, like you say he it's just daft you can't do that! They've froze his bank account! Yeah now he's stole all them . Mm yeah but I should think they're insured for that. Well yeah but you see they . They probably weren't on his premises either were they? Well it's no. Jimmy's? Yeah. But he was saying you see, what's happened is the they isn't his he just delivers them for the bloke Well yeah. and they have these bloody great artics come down and put the stuff in your shed and it was nicked but he said there's in , there's about eighty odd hampers nicked worth about sort of, perhaps four thousand Hey what are they doing ? quid but the bloke who owns them he's near said they were sort of a couple of hundred or three hundred nicked or something and he put the load in at twenty two thousand quid! So he said that's all got out of proportion. Makes me laugh when he comes Ooh sorry! He's only insured for eighteen thousand anyway so I said well to be perfectly honest Jim, I said I wouldn't of thought that the insurance company's gonna pay out eighteen thousand quid without getting some sort insurance investigator down there to sort it out. I said they'll want to know, where they was, how they was they'll want to know the value of each stuff, what was in it, everything! It's terrible! Mm. They don't know they isn't gonna just churn out, oh yeah well we'd better pay that mate, eighteen thousand quid! Yeah well I said to Geoff, well I hope Geoff soon gets his money because he owes Geoff a lot of money at the moment! . I said well we need that really, this Yeah. this week! Mm. Too right! Oh it's a job I don't know!weekend a day or two ago he did look a bit better tonight. And the building society bloke's told me today they've got a hundred and fifty accounts in the office that are sort of heavily in arrears That's a joke! Streuth! Well we're not heavily in arrears are we? No that's what he said, he said No but you are but I mean We are in arrears but we're gonna be he said you are by the number of payments you isn't paid he said you haven't paid for almost a year but he said you haven't money. No no. He said well you ain't got much . Yeah it worked out what, about nine hundred pound innit? Yeah. Oh dear Well you see nine hundred pound that's only sort of your half yearly rent is it? Mm I know. So we we're not And that's what we're paying per year . Yeah we pay that for a year. So he said but, he said, the stupid thing is he said, I'm I could That's a bloody good job that is all it is! Cos I didn't know how we'd of managed if we'd had a big one! he said it's it's the twelfth payment which he said is you know, just pay it I said But he said to Geoff don't pay it off all in one lump sum Yeah. He told him not to do that, he said just pay when you got some and If you can. pa , pay what you can so it gets it down So I do. so you're catching up Mm. but don't go and pay it all off. Yeah Do we really pay this poll tax? You're mum's worried she hasn't paid any poll tax since August! Yeah. Well what She hasn't had a form or nothing! I said we'll worry about it when it comes! But she don't want to get what we've had, she's gotta pay it in advance No well the thing you wanna do then is er, well yo you still got the form haven't you? You gotta keep the original one. Should have somewhere. Yeah well all you gotta do is you know where now mind them Jonathan! Jonathan! Put your feet down! You know erm Put your feet down! where's the easiest place to tell you to find? Is there one in Wisbech? No. I'm all hot! Take my top off. If you drive Can I slip my top off? No you can't take your top off! I'm hot! Well,you pay it up up to them! Oh yeah. Yeah but I'm telling you whe Surprised you ain't heard from them. Yeah but I'm telling you where you gotta If you sent a cheque? pay it. Well Susan goes in there! And Edward. Well look, leave it and when she pays hers, pay Well yours! yeah if it's in a fortnight then we'll have to pay ours. Yeah so we're gonna Pay ours in a fortnight pay ours she'll take Oh yeah take ours as well. my sister'll take yours as well. Yeah. She pays ours, she pays her own, so she wouldn't mi she's going there. So leave it a fortnight and then we've gotta pay ours so then you can sort yours out. Geoff er Ken sent our week, thinking he'd . That's right. I said and now that's how they ruddy well do, they play on your money don't they? Yeah, that's right. And I thought if we can Ooh that feels good. Mary paid the rent You got then a little to draw on if you Yeah. need poll tax . Or the car two new tyres and new exhaust. So that means money! Yeah well you won't have brand new tyres will you? I went into the back way and and then the laid carpet on the floor look, as you go in the back way concrete. Yeah. And they got an old curtain at the back door and then that's all you sort of go through across the corner of the kitchen and he was making a bouquet of flowers and er he was setting them all out like and then when he bought it into me it was all set out in a big thing of cellophane and it'd got two gold strips like That's what they sell you see. and all curly at the top and all curly at the bottom and then a big bow be tied round the bottom. Yeah they sell them you see. He's Yeah. making them for the next morning. and then er when you go into the room there was another big blanket. Just these blankets all over! Where the door Mm. is, there was a big blanket over the door then as you sit here their room was like all the way round to you, and I sat there and the stairs come down, the open stairs come into the room and here is an old brick fire place Yeah. with a basket and there's television, a stereo over there, and loads of videos on the shelves here and there like the road goes past, they was right close to the road just here was this big blanket and other side of the blanket there's a Porsche and there's a dog in th , in there Oh! just on the side of the big blanket, he was whining and barking and ! Anyway they two little old girls, little old boys in there so she come and this woman who looks after little old baby, she was about there and she gets this baby out, well I tell you what he didn't miss a bloody trick he didn't! No ! His eyes were like he sticking up his head they did and er course the kids said they was going to get th , and he Yeah. was full of them kids! He you could see him really took up to them. She said he's grown up. Watching every movement, and she put him on and put his blanket on the ground and he was laying there in his handful of this and so she said come to me then and she put something on the floor she said well you know you go to it, I ain't gonna give it to you and he's she said well no, you've gotta try! Yeah. Really? Ooh ooh ooh! You never seen I will bloody get there! And his old arms they were going like this you know ! She said he's grown up. And he's really getting frustrated cos he couldn't go and then she said well no, you've gotta do it! He was going like That's the woman? Or Mrs Yeah. Oh yeah. So, no she's very much in the background she was and then course little old boy he goes down to her and his old eyes lit up again s , so then eventually come in, so he said erm oh here's that trophy they wanted, she come third in Great Britain, little old gran. Yeah. So, he said you've never seen it have you? I said no.., so he said er, I'll show you a quick video he said, and he showed me this video, part in Manchester and part in Peterborough two old girls got these crash helmets on Yeah. and they stand there sort of bouncing up and down on this canvass thing, you know, sort of like this then she goes ooh ooh, and her bleeding leg comes up in the air she kicks this other little old girl beside the head! Yeah they come in here one night. And er she won a point for that, and a point for this so anyway, showed me that, so he said well just stand up a minute Geoff, so I stood up, so he said erm now don't move! So he says to the oldest one he said just do ah, he said three four kick or something Bit round here doing this business like that and then all of a sudden she come across the room she's Weow! And I felt the wind come off her foot! ! Bloody hell! And the little old girl he says, you gotta bear in mind, he said she's only nine he said so she can't do none of that she come up and she could get her leg up, she went like this! And that went past my face Mhm. and then he said something about do us cart one and a half cartwheels and end up in a crab or something, and she come flying across the room at me and I felt this foot go shwoo by the side of my head and she landed up, sort of like this on the floor but sh , apparently she didn't quite get that right! So they was well into it, you know. Yeah he said they are. What they doing? Now he said right, he said now why don't you They've been trained from early age haven't they? Tai Kwondo that's what they do. Well no, they isn't long well couple a year ago. Just What? he said, that's all If it is as long as that! But he said they train every Sunday. Yeah he said it takes a long time And and he said er, I think he said they're going to Manchester Yeah but yo to me, that's near enough teaching them children all that but to me, them children want to mix with other children. Well that's the only time we see him innit? But he says Yeah but you . I think it's wrong! Well why have they why have we got to do it she says? Why have we gotta ? Well don't, if that child doesn't want to do it, I think that's wrong to make her. He said, and what could I say, he said? Why has she gotta do it? Mm. Well she hasn't! No. He said it's tha , that is what he said if you don't want to do it, you don't have to! But she drops that kid about eight in the morning! Tina does. Yeah. Well she's got something Got it all in their living room they got about four bloody great boxes full of bread rolls! Oh! Yeah well that's for the Full of them! Yeah. And he said er ooh there should be four hundred and sixty sausages, he said yeah well they're in the freezer. Yeah. Yeah well they've gotta be cooked tonight so you gotta do so and so, so and so and so and so and he's gonna be cooking all these sausages and stuff! Yeah! I said, whatever time do you get done? Oh, he said, two o'clock or when we get done. Well that baby weren't ten days old and she was past here at eight o'clock in the morning! Well then how's she bloody done it? Well I think I dunno , they get in on a Friday night he said by the time we've cashed up, when I got there they'd got this round coffee table in the middle of the room similar to that brass one what I'm but it's an old tin thing it is sitting in the middle of the room there was a little bag of money there a little bag of money there and a bag of money there that's Geoff's money that's petrol money that's five hundred pound. Was that her? No that's what he said. He's Oh! telling her. There's five hundred Oh he didn't! pounds for that griddle there's so and so's money and there's the money for the flowers all in these little bags of money, been counting out all this money and they got home seven o'clock that night and he was then don't know where he was going with me erm but they piles in the car all three of them the girls have gotta have a shower so they stayed there and er ooh I know where they was going! They was heading off to London that night to go and pick up this griddle for this Luncheon. No. erm Well it's not a life is it? Oh dear! I wouldn't want it, I like my evenings to relax! So do I! He said well if you go and make the he said any time between now and Christmas, you'll have to come and have a meal on the house, I thought I'm bloody sure I will! Cos he does the flowers and she does the food, or vice-versa. Yeah and they've also got another bloke Ooh ah, that's it, who who comes here. who them. Oh yeah. He something about, I don't know, he he got in trouble or something with and so, then she bought the van and he has it and then she has half the profit. Ha! Cos it makes me laugh when they pull up here, I say, look at this outfit dad! Yeah and then he's got that roast potato Mm. thing ain't he? He's got a roast potato thing. Yeah yes. Cos she was on a lay by Wednesday they always go there. once. What? Was she? there. er Cor you'll make some money erm He was waiting on her. It's just in the next month then. Hey Cos they had shopping you see. Yeah. I bet I know what's on T V. By what love? They was Bet I know what's on T V. there wasn't a car wi within three or four feet But I think like Yes. June sometime . Money's not everything. Yeah. Well I mean they managed Yes. years ago. I'd like to have a little bit more but I Yeah. don't make, I don't, I wouldn't want to be there Well I always consider me and Geoff worked along, so far so that's long enough for me, I think! Ain't it always? lot of people used to have more than one. That's what I said to somebody else,. I'd work a lot less if I could. I said I had three kids and I could work all day and then I had to do my bloody work when I got home, light a copper Mm. and there's all switch button now, there is that advantage. Well yes, that's right. was setting. But but I shall never forget when he was like always spruced up to go snooker match snow white shirt ! Mm. Dad's when he goes to as long as they always . Yeah. I said I can't get to do, go and do them. Fifth of December really . I'll fetch something. Course he . Yeah. Course it puts on his you couldn't see ! Oh no! He said,look at my bloody suit ! Cor that was terrible! So what I had to do Alright mum? Yeah. I had to get one that weren't ironed and iron it up for him! Carole. And when they come Yeah. to pick him he's, he went out, he said I said to them, you'll have to wait a minute my mother ain't been very well,and I was ironing his shirt, he won't nothing to do Oh! with mum ! Poor old Doug! I think he slept in that loft when he used to come here. Yeah. Yeah. Poor old Doug! Have you cleaned your brass grandma? Ooh nearly fortnight ago I done that! Looks shiny! Oh! You wouldn't of thought so if you'd have come before then ! I'd have , I hate it! Mm. Blooming stuff! Why aren't you opening Oh dear ! it? Well I'd like to see it Jonathan but I don't I had so much on at I hope I win two hundred and fifty quid on the draw prize on Friday. Yeah. Well I don't Geoff! Geoff , do you know what that plate says? I wouldn't ! You talk about luck! They had a hundred pound fifty pound and twenty five and that all went to one family! And they weren't nothing to do with House! No. Well blow me! She said yeah the mother won the hundred the son-in-law won the fifty Yeah. and something to do with them, won the twenty five! Well they said they've never known that to happen, cos I had some tickets ooh I said I didn't win then sister? She said no and there was several erm smaller prizes. Well we've had a go well I think it was for erm some sort of I think was for multiple sclerosis Oh yes. or something like that. Anyway the tickets were twenty five pence each, so we all had one at work and you'd gotta guess From the school? No, Jenny bought them. Oh . You gotta guess the weight of this Christmas pudding that's a great big Christmas pudding, and they tell you how many j erm jars of this and how many tins of that and how many pounds of sugar and and you've gotta guess the weight. And you do that? The weight. And the first prize is two hundred and fifty pounds worth of carpet. Yeah but what if someone cheats and does it? Well I said to dad Well I don't think they'll know what'll it weigh until they weigh it. well he was in Stuart and that was for Hooray! and I thought well we're a ha a healthy family I said you never know when you want help so I said but I've got twenty p here, I'll have one ticket he said well my dear that one ticket come out can come out! He said You just I should like to see you win having one ticket cos you've patronised us. Mm. I said well, I don't pass you by but I'll have one ticket. I never did We don't get my things from Encyclopedia Brittanica did I? Yeah that was a con weren't it! Con weren't it! Why didn't they give you it? Don't know I won third prize on the draw and I That's the never did get it. Yeah. I said well why don't you se she said well you've gotta come and pick the books, I said well I can't come all that way, I said it's hardly worth my while, I said why don't Yeah. you send me gift token? I won number twenty eight in the Daily Mail, I got Did you hear about that? Do you know Yeah. what she got? How much you gonna win? No. Oh Erm A lot of that money won Well five was er five thousand. makes you wanna Well I hope you win it. Ten thousand for first one, well I shan't get that cos I got five or six on that one. lot of that was i in insurance bonds. But I want twenty eight on that one and I want two on there. What would you do with five thousand? But people go and work a lot and Spend it save it. insurance . No you wouldn't save it all would you? I shall buy you a shed Yeah. Or a tree house. And Jonathan a shed, John and Julian a shed and I shall get all the other little boys the equivalent of what you're shed cost. But I mean a lot on the railway A lot, wouldn't have a lot left! I wouldn't bother! I said to dad I've never had a lot And I used to have a little bit and I shall see the same with my little boys and girls Yeah I'd leave some for them instead of a tree. He took her What do you want then? Instead of a shed more people. and instead of a tree house Yeah. I'd like a little second hand . But you see there's a lot of people who Oh I've heard that today, there was some little bikes like that drawing drawing Yeah! He's always wanted a . on the way out ! I love them! You couldn't ride it! You'd get with your bike on the lawn so we Do you remember that time you and James and Marie had Julian's. Cor yeah that was And nearly hit the police car Police car. didn't they? Yeah right, I was But i coming round the corner And daddy Who? you know grandma Julian. Seen the paper, What's the matter with him? Well he was up all night with tummy ache! and er Well it is grandma look and he said he'd he'd got ! got the money for the I was on But he looked very sad this afternoon. there's someone out in the woods! Yeah. Yes. I hope James then hit me. So I rang Alfie back save it for the and is and the ceiling got jammed and they come And they nearly hit it. for his compost! the brake they was going stop ! Well what do they Gilly goes Ken! Ken ! I go he's jammed! And he went Well she answered it and I said Bang! aren't you very well, he well I've He went Ahhh! I've had stomach ache grandma, all night. money Well daddy said he does look bad! Yeah. No don't put them near the table! He said he looked a bit better this afternoon, I said did you see Julian? He said yes, he looked a bit better this afternoon. Must of Oh good. There's nothing worse than stomach ache though No. is there? No. No you mustn't do don't Ooh you mustn't bite him! Oh! . Yeah ! Hello! isn't he he's eating hot bread isn't he? May well pick up the bit of pa a paper. Geoff's Yeah. been trying to look for a bit of paper and I opened a book today and found it! One of one of the sons is has resigned out of like the . I don't know dad. Yeah, that was on that was on Ooh yes there's been no ending about it it's Yeah. Go on put me in there! I wish I could Horrible old man. What you done? I won't leave until you put me in the . He must of known something about that. Yeah. I will not leave until you put it Geoff. What? Robert Maxwell. That old Maxwell. Oh ey. Daddy! Well he lived like a millionaire an lived like erm I've got lived like erm royalty and he'd got no money had he? Well I said to Dad he really makes me laugh you know. Mummy tell daddy to put me in the hall. I said I wish I could happy go lucky like that I don't think she re , she rings me up, you don't wanna ring me! Maybe she's ! Now then I'm at work. she can afford to r can't afford to ring you! What's it she said the other day something about oh well if you come and stay the night she said I was only saying Mummy! about him! Well do you know now if you were cut off the telephone Mum! Just a minute! Will you tell daddy to pull the cord. not only do you have to pay Please? thirty six pound to be cut off Yeah. but they also can ask for two hundred and fifty pound, for up front er as a Ready for when you use it again? Yeah. Can they? Ooh we better make sure we pay ours on time then. They all do Yeah. cos I've sa Mummy , can you tell daddy to put in I do , I pay mine. the figure four? I say to daddy, when I got the money mate and I've now I'm now putting ten pound a week for fat Harry. I got a bigger ball. So I shan't have to worry there any more. And if I win anything Ooh! up there I shall put Mind out! it upstairs. Mummy what are you Yeah that's a bit of a worry, the rent , isn't it Yeah. for you? No, come off there! Well she's a horrible Mummy That's what Ann said ooh if we ever owe her rent the dear old soul will say oh well next week'll do Oh ! then I take this over There aren't many people say that nowadays No! is there? Mummy? No, that's right,you go up there Why did you tell you daddy, but why can't I and she won't have it! either come in the figure four she or let me lay on my belly now! No. And put Woofy over my shoulders. Everybody's . Forensic examination. No don't be silly! No South Africans. When you have to put in a bit of I bet you Blackie's full length of a man. I bet she is. That's where she wanted to go. What did I say erm She's ain't on the mantel piece. Mum can She won't be able to Oh yeah at all. no erm Jim was saying that old He don't want to. boy who works for him Please? I don't like him Geoff! he's married again. That dark haired one There's two of them. I don't like him! This one's got blonde curly hair. Ooh no that's the dark one. I'm not keen on him. Well we get alright with him don't we? There's There's two. A biggish feller, with dark hair. Tall ? Well fairly tall, fairly sort of stocky build. Stocky. Well you know, you know who that is? No. Well you know erm 's son! Toffee apple bloke Yes, it's his eldest boy he's alright. It's his son, who's related to Jim through marriage. Well this is her is it her brother, is ? Yeah. We only found that out the other day! Was a what? A Pogey That's right. Oh yeah. Mm. Well she She used to live down Southall Road. Did she? But he's a nice old boy isn't he? Yeah. I have a chat with him Well that policem that police woman was telling us about Southall Road di Yeah. weren't she? Well that's always been a rough She's ever area. so nice, she lives in the village, she's erm what is she, Indian or something? That's right she or yeah but she comes, she's well she's a originally Indian isn't she? Yes but Where does she live then. She lived in Walton Pier Opposite where Mrs lives now. Will you tickle In them bungalows , little bungalows. Yeah lives down the side. Will you tickle me to death! Oh! Will you tickle me to death and put Well she co and cor, do you know she'd got beautiful nails! Yeah? Yeah I couldn't really help no , I thought to myself ooh my God, I put mine like that! Daddy. But, she was extremely nice weren't she Geoff? Yeah. The first time I see her in the police station, no, will you pack up please, now pack it up! Pack it up ! Oh! So erm Get your shirt on. the time I saw her in the police station, she looked she'd got jeans on Oh yeah. and a cardigan. Oh! What the hell's she then, you know? Mm. She wore exactly the same clothes when she come to June. Mm. Oh! I said to her got a I said I don't mind this doing statement, I said, but I am not going to court! So she said well I'll put that on the thing, but she said if it goes to Crown Court you'll have to, I said well Mm. they'll have to take me, I said but I'm not going. Who was that through then? Erm Not ? No, who was that I'd gotta a statement about then? It was them erm . . Cos he's in the paper isn't he, old ? Mm. Yeah. Well I said Geoff might have to go to that because he was driving Geoff's car, if I remember rightly! Without us knowing, weren't he? Yep he hadn't got a license or Poor man ! something had he? No ! He, he She did, and he drove it! Alan said another bugger! Mm. They're all at it! Well that's what I've been saying to dad as well, I said the times I said we've had cheques come back! Oh well I don't write your cheque! I said I ta I said no, cos I said I won't accept it! Well that's a funny thing Now then he said! I said no I wouldn't I said cos I don't accept cheques. that's a funny thing on the phone when he said about paying I said a hundred a six pound complete so I said and don't give me a cheque cos I don't want one! No he said I don't ready money is what I like to get. Do you know where was he gonna pay the money from? Dunno If he ain't got it! dunno whether he has or not do you? He thought he was gonna have it on tip again I think. I went to that boy but he was a lovely boy! Well we all see the other tenner but that don't make any difference, as long as we got the main. Mm, well you don't know, you never know do you? Well what have I should we gotta say if he comes to want to hire a car? No? No. No. Ooh I shall, I told him! I, he won't come to me hey, he might to you, but he won't come here! He won't get one off of me! I said no I got on the phone I shall say to him you was rude to my mother-in-law and I sa that's it! I said that's business I said and I'm afraid we can't carry on like that. But i , I don't think he can go to anybody else. I think that's why he comes here cos nobody Yeah. else wants to entertain him. So I said have you tried Healey He said er no I haven't got time for doing that. I thought no! Well he told me he nearly strangled him! But I thought it was Rent-a-Van? No,Healey Oh. No he said, I can't bear him, he said I nearly bloody strangled him! Oh. I thought to myself it's a pity someone didn't strangle you mate! He he come right in the farm back to the farm you'd be surprised the people that walk in my house, don't they daddy? Mm. They walk straight in you know! Into the kitchen. They shouldn't really should they? No but they do! And very often at night, if I don't lock up that first door they're through there Yeah you're wise to lock it really. ah well there's like a second one Mr always come in in the conservatory. Yeah yes he does yeah he always does. He's a rough and ready man isn't he? Yes. Mind you, your money's always there Yeah. and you know where you stand with him. She's erm Come on, one of the head te , well her , I don't know what happened! Cos they were supposed to move you see! Yeah. Cos his house was ! And it No, you do what you want with your house! Well Aunt Sadie said a long time ago Ohhhh! there was two of them I don't care what Aunt Sadie said, he's had sixteen thousand pounds Rargh! spent on his house and had it all . Now? No, this was done a long while ago, Who paid for that then Geoff? Well, there's been a court case over it. In the end he isn't they who, he sued the insurance company and this, the er solicitor he had weren't getting on very good and they suggested this bloke and he got onto it and he got on it, fifteen thousand quid out of sixteen thousand quids . Well I know a long while ago Good God, that's good innit? Aunt Sadie said better than , yeah. Who's his solicitor, I think we ought to get in contact with him? telling me. But he said erm Aunt Sadie said they've had to move out But she's coming to the That was nothing to do with it! Erm Well that's what she said. Yeah Yeah. that's what I was saying about Geoff's car really you know that chap taking it and righting off and we didn't got a penny for it, I ca , I can't see how that's right! And what do you pay insurance for? Well that's it! Well erm Mummy! well I suppose their motto is, she had a C D ten on her driving licence, I suppose she shouldn't of had it in the first place so if she hadn't of had it, he wouldn't of got it! ! But that still ain't the point! Geoff did not hire it to him! Yeah. He hired it to her whether she'd got a C D ten Well that's that girl that had the yeah but if she'd of had the accident they could of said no, she's got a C D ten on her driving licence, she shouldn't have been driving it! Yeah. Well fair comment. Yeah. But he weren't even supposed to have it, so No. that ma , I said to Geoff, to me,you know, we'd like to get a solicitor on it but you see we But you weren't aware she'd, he'd got it was you? No. No! . Oh well she I mean she , she really should of been summonsed for Well I tell you something, I think you ought to compile a letter together to somebody, and try and sort some it isn't gonna cost you nothing to write a letter! To who? Well I don't know who! I just don't know what to think! I don't know who well I don't know whether you ought to write to the chief constable and explain the situation, all the I reckon she should of aggro we've had of and forms and then writing letters to him and being lost and she should of took them keys out shouldn't she? Well that wouldn't of helped i She had , you see but see it's like shall we say dad hiring a car Yeah. pack it up Jonathan before I get bloody cross! Yeah. It's like dad hiring a car come home here and put the keys on the mantel piece And somebody taking them! And then me picking up the keys living here and taking it down the road! Yeah well I mean he must have gone in the hospital to her mustn't he? No , no, no, no he lived with her and she, she was She di , she didn't ha at work. The car was at home. Oh I thought you said it was in a hospital yard when he took it! No! Oh! It was in the caravan where they lived. And he took it. Yeah but then he knew he had Well she must of left the keys in! No! No she left the keys in the house. In the caravan where she wo , lived! Well I mean she must have left he keys at home. Well yes. Yeah but you don't t , if you're not using the car As far as I know. you don't carry a well a ours at home. And he picked it up She'd left them in the caravan, and he just see the keys Well that's it, as far as I'm concerned, it's theft! And that is all Well it is! And he was convicted of theft! He was, see that they are saying, it is not theft to be theft Well course it is! he would have to break into that caravan To get the keys. and take the keys. Well then yo , you should have rung her up and said did he break in the caravan? She should of said yes, and then we perhaps would of got paid out! He lived with her! It was his caravan! Yeah but she'd kicked him out anyway, hadn't she? No! Well that's a pity she ain't said she had! No, they was living together they'd only been living there a fortnight! Cos they Well I'd I'd I just cannot see how it's fair! You see What isn't fair? who was that man come here about insurance? He said they're alright Until you want paying out! till you want some money Yeah. he said, I find mine just the same, I've dealt with them for years but as soon you want anything although, I must say, with the break in we've got on alright didn't we? Yeah. Well that's a different sort of kettle of fish. when you think about it. Yeah. You claimed, both of you claimed they were straight away gonna chip you back and offer you about sixty pound for them . Yeah. And if hadn't of got on the phone and sort of made a song and dance about it, and told one or two things, and said one or two things they come up with a bit more money, but again you have to lie through your teeth to get back what you're really entitled to! Mm, but I mean when I showed that bloke them first time, when I showed him them cuff links Yeah. he said, now look you lost eighty pound out of that draw I said yes I did they'll only allow you fifty so he says I'll say these cuff links are worth thirty pound, so he was on my side weren't he? Yeah. He said they won't know no different he said then that'll rectify you're eighty Well that's bloody right,yo and he was with me weren't he? Have you told Well I'd have you told them big insurance company come and unstuck a little and what he had like Gail done, was like we had last year Yeah. Yeah. and the they th ,th ,th , it nearly, they said it would nearly bankrupt two or three these are Yeah. big companies. Well you see Mr once told us Well they said they will, they think will be by the time they've paid up cos they hadn't really paid up for, for last years yet! Yeah. I mean he said down Southall Road they was always claiming down there for an armchair Yeah. I said to Pete he went one Saturday morning, there was grass under one of the chairs! He said oh I've come a bit too early have I? He said well don't you claim off us any more! She'd doesn't put up with them ! Bloody hell! It's because I've I wi filled the form in and and he said well you have to be more careful! Well they'd always got an excuse but he said, she couldn't deny that cos I see it ! So he sa , I said to her well I'd rather you not be insured with us! So he said whether she do have somebody else, I don't know ! Ooh! He said these these fireman today they can, they can tell you whether the fire was Yeah. With Yeah. or not. Yeah With all this er They can they're pretty smart this forensic stuff and that, they can do anything. now Jonathan we are going. You gotta go home now. Are we now? And I mean going! Oh! Right I'll get my coat on then. We aren't gonna hang about for you cos you, I will You'll have to stop. Yeah mum's gotta wash up and pack the sandwiches. You'll have to stop the night. Come on! And I'll put you on Ahhh I'll put you on my bike. You'll have him from Friday. Ah! Why I'll Friday night? Ha I'm hurt! Well the I ain't gotta bother to bring him down Saturday morning ! That's alright with me. Do you wanna stay with grandma Friday night? Put your pullover on please. Dad bring you sometime Friday. Why can't I no stay Thursday as well then? No you can't stay Thursday night cos I go out. Yeah. That's grandma's night out and that's Cheerio. grandma's birthday. what you wanna do in Wisbech no? Yeah,. Build an . What a shame! Come on! Like a Shall I turn it off now? No leave it, that's alright for a minute! No we Have we put, oh no! I've pressed play daddy Come on else you'll get your dad cross. Well I've Well yeah. pressed play and I've He's gonna do what? Mum, I've pressed Come on! play, I haven't pressed record! Yeah. Yeah. and then went up Come on! up er pleasure boats and all that . Oh! It's cold when you get in the car innit? Yeah well I ain't been out since Well I should Ooh I got my washing to do. cos I shouldn't bother with it. Ooh yes I shall be . Yeah yeah. I'd better get it done That was lovely grandma I should thank you. Yeah. And there's the letter. Jonathan get your shirt on cos we're ready otherwise to go ! Tell him I don't know why they Did you really? Can I have some more shandy please? and I'll just put my clothes and go. They go round to Dartford. Grandma! Yes. Can I have some more shandy please? You can see the little light look Jonathan. Yeah. Well you can turn it off now Geoff. Ooh I'm cold! I did. Did you? Do you know we won't mummy. What's that mate? I bet that don't work. Well we'll see. Cos I'll tell you why,is quieter he fell over from the ground! Well I don't, I wouldn't like to say would you Geoff? You haven't. This is pretty this car innit? Yeah. All them lights! That must cost a fortune to have them on! Yeah. Ooh! We'll be going into a warm house, that's one thing. Yeah. I don't find it very warm at your mum's, do you? No. Cor! I'm sweating! Well you've got a bit of a cold. Well you can't have not medicine because you've had erm Mm. alcohol. Yeah. Oh why Oh I shouldn't say that, should I really? medicine. Well it wouldn't do you a lot of good with erm sherry. I think she was pleased to see us. Yeah. I don't suppose they get a lot company do they? No. Not at all. Mum . What's on tonight? Specials innit? Oh I ain't bothered, I'm not watching telly anyway, I want to get the you two will have to help me out, when I get home. Doing what? Well dad can start packing his lunch up while I wash up if he likes. Good idea. Erm you can get yourself to bed! Ooh no you can get in the bath! Ooh look he's got all his lights up ooh blimey they've got some lights! Oh, a special ain't on tonight is it? That's on Thursdays. dun dun dee dun What is the time? half past eight. doo doo doo dee dun. Well not unless you want to get up in the morning and have a bath Jonathan, it's up to you. Yeah. But you mustn't hang about in the morning then, neither! No I won't. I'll wake you up at quarter past seven, you can get straight in. Oh yeah. Are you ooh you've had a bath haven't you?. Dad did, yeah just before he went out today. Why do you ? Yeah I've . Oh I wondered where he was did you get home early? Er I was home at quarter to three. So you'd beaten me? Yeah. . I was pleased really cos er that way I never sort of missed any overtime. na na na na na na noo ooh ooh . Well yeah that's right. after a couple of hours overtime,. Well I don't know, it's fairly important Geoff. Well yeah, but I mean I got the si it's another you can't afford it to live then! nee now now now na now now now Well not that's right. It's only there for a certain amount of time. you look neat, talk about a treat talk about you look better than doo doo doo, doo doo doo, doo doo doo doo doo doo you look smart oh You think of all the lights what are on all them electric bills! Yeah. All the po the population, you'd think blimey there must be billions Yeah. of pounds spent on electricity mustn't there? Yeah. dressed in style, Mind you can't mana well I suppose you could manage without it but that wouldn't be so easy would it? Well yeah. They managed them years ago. Well I'm surprised people don't do that. Well now you've gotta generate it you gotta have electric going outside so you don't you gotta put these in ain't you? Well yeah. So it's no cheaper just Well no, that's right. They never did sell that did they? No. I'm surprised Pete didn't try and get that. They were talking about it. Oh did they tell you what he was on about erm No. i who's that firm at the side of him who's just gone Oh I know liquidation or whatever it is. Yeah I know Stokes Barton Yeah, he wants to buy that bit of land, he said I don't care if I have to mortgage myself up to the hills he said! Well that's nothing to do Stokes Barton anyway. Who's it to do with? Russell , he owns it. Oh, I shall have to tell him then he a Just Stokes Barton rent it. Doesn't it. Ahhh yeah, I shall have to tell him then. Yeah I'm sure he'll find Russell own that Ahhh I shall have to tell him then, he said cos that'll come up for sale then. I don't think so. Oh he wants to go to Russell then don't he? Yeah well well actually Russell don't own, cos she's still alive, and his mother owns it, and she's still alive. What was that just shot round that? Dunno. Some boys with white trainers on, I thought it was a cat! Yeah . No they're holding the cats. Oh dear! Do you know poor old Nicky wanders about that bloody place, you don't know what to do with yourself! No. He had Jason's car today! Yeah? Ah that's I think I dunno, perhaps it isn't because he was on about having his car serviced weren't he? And I thought he said something about his car, that's why today. Oh!cat's in the hall look. Wait a minute Geoff! Have you got the tape on? Yeah. Oh Mm mm . Well where's that thing You'll have to have Marmite Geoff, in them. Yeah that'll be fine. What is that tape actually for then? Just a research thing that's all innit. Could you move your arm out please? Or let me come underneath . Well I said what he ought to do tonight, is be going to bed and have an early because do you know every flipping I think I shall have one of those. night he's been going to bed at ten, eleven o see that was quarter past ten last night before you went to Ah what do you, what did you do with the bit of paper you had, for me? I'm in the mood . That's a good job I found now you said it was a letter head paper, well that ain't a letter head paper! I thought it was but Well I would of probably found that, if I'd known. You said had the I'm gonna put out that blooming old stuff these old Yeah. bu bu . I said I'll wash up. Oh no I'm not ready . Now then let me have a look. Oh my knee, it feels like I've pulled it out of joint or something! Yeah. oh well you sleep on sherry though it makes you sleepy, you can't not sleep. Well mummy's going to bed too, and I'm tired. What is it? I'm gonna read for a little while but I feel Now like a . where does this come out? I likes them all nice. Oh that's perhaps not on there anyway. Mm mm. You what? Hello! Hey! lot to wash up ! No. Harry's mum is usually nice and cheerful isn't she? You what? Harry's mum is usually nice and cheerful. Yeah. Yeah. Not when I'm round there! Why? The other t , the last time yeeh! Why what was the matter with her? Dangerous! Why? And deadly! Why? Woh man! She turned dangerous! Why? What was you doing? And nasty! Nothing! Who was she nasty with then? Harry. Why what did yo well what was he doing? Well we were just . Well I should think she did, I'll if you'd have done that in my room the and filled my room up with with a gas I shouldn't of been very pleased either would you Geoff? But not with gas. No Old sofa weren't it? Going . Was it some sulphur thing or something? What sulphate? Something like that, well Yeah. Well I don't think I would of been very pleased if you'd put a go in the room for an hour! Hey right we spilt a bit on the table and it goes cheee have a guess. Yeah well you shouldn't do things like that! But it literally sort of burnt the edge of the corner! The edge of the table I mean. Oh. It just went black! Are you going to bed then? In a minute. Well can you shut up a minute cos I think straight with you rabbiting in my ears! But we've put another tape in. Well I ain't gonna sit here listening to you rabbit on just cos mum wanted that filling up! Well no, well turn it off while dad's doing his books he So you really had an enjoyable day yesterday. Yeah. Did you then? I fed erm er Ginger. Have you? Well every morning I say goodbye to her, I say bye bye Ginge! You don't! I do, I say bye bye Ginge! He goes meow! Bet you don't wake him a lot! Right, every time I say bye bye Ginge he goes meow! You look tired today, are you? Yes. That's all that sherry you had last night I should think isn't it? Yeah probably. I like that little duck. Yeah I do, I think it's lovely, but you shouldn't of spent your money, I told you! I was gonna buy dad a little camel. Well we've got a little camel ain't we? What you bought us what, what you got once before when we out for the day. Yeah, a really small one. Well it don't matter. He won't le ,expect you to buy us anything, I gave you the money to spend on yourself you don't ha John bought everybody in his family something, for him, his mum, his sister and his dad. Did he now? And it was his money! How much did he spend then? Blimey he did well! He couldn't do the last thing cos because I was gonna buy you it was ninety five P. Yeah. And that one was one forty but this, it was a little ball. Oh yeah? And But you shouldn't of spent your money, I told you it was for you, not for me! Yeah , you did yeah. The thought is there, I know, that's very nice but your coat? Cor they had load of pencils they were forty five Have you got your trousers done up? they had big, that big that big and that big. Pull your trousers up properly! Why don't you wear that belt? No oh! Why? No! Oh. What have you got all over your jumper? The wool! I dunno. Oh dear I didn't know that, well the other one's in the wash so you'll have to wear it won't you? Mm mm. I've only just got it in the washing machine. Mm mm mm. That's yogurt I should think come here, see if I can get it off with a cloth. No! Why? Can't be! Well course it can, from yesterday! Oh I thought put it on washing machine. No I've got the other one in the washing machine you got dirty. cor ! is there? Come here, let's help you on with it. Right, yesterday on the way to scho , on the way to the bus we had to wait about five minutes I was slowly going see and I fell onto Christopher because wurgh er er and Oh. he bumped into Lee and he went er er er! Here are, don't try and walk around with them then. Cor yeah, it was excellent! Alright then, bye bye. The best bit like I say, was when Did you have your lunch on the bus? No. Where did you have it then? Out on the si , outside, you could either have it outside or in the bus. And you went outside did you? Yeah cos I was hot. Oh. They didn't have any windows open! Didn't they? Nope, not one! Oh alright then, bye! Bye bye! then. I will. Ooh Jonathan, what about your spellings? Yeah don't forget ! Bye! ! Hey? What's the day? What's today, Thursday. Ooh . Alright, bye! I don't think so. No and right and their people they've uncovered a path to the bigger . No I don't think so, I think it's all fiction. How do they get a things about fifty foot tall then? Well I don't know Jonathan. I don't know much about the whole subject. Cos it is it looks a bit like Fudge. Does it? But with cracks sort of thing. Fudge? And this boy's just opened the path. He what? He's just opened the how long have we got to finish the tapes? Oh I don't think. Nine, ten of them. I don't know whether I shall or not, but I'll they're completely full anyway. What tape are we on? Seven I think nearly finished seven. Oh we'll never do it! Well I'm doing my best! Well you see I ain't seen many people today. We might get some more tomorrow. Yeah. Have we got tomorrow? Yeah, till half past three. Half past three! We won't do it then. Well I'm doing my best! No doubt about it, we'll never get it finished! So that means we gotta do when , finish that one and another one today, and two more tomorrow. I shall have to talk to myself Jonathan! Can you? No ! , won't they let you? No! They'll think Why not? I'm cuckoo if I do that! Three! What? So! Well do you want them to think your mother's cuckoo? Yeah, well they're not gonna know who you are, are they? Well I think so cos I have to write in the book, I have to put myself! Yeah but you don't put who you are on it! I put myself. Well who else is myself? If that isn't me! Yeah but they don't know who you are do they? Well I know! Well then! They gonna think you're a terrible idiot but at least you get the tapes done! Well I don't want to be a total idiot thank you! I would! Well I know you wouldn't care! Can I talk to myself? No! It's all about conversation Jonathan, you'd hardly have a conver Ginge! What? He was outside! cat flap. Hello! He's oh mum I I'm going! Oh! Ah! Ooh! Love bite . Did anybody get for not behaving? Only two people. Who was that? Erm that was Mark and Jeremy and unless somebody owns up they were pinging a dried pea at Lee and nearly hit Mr ! Ooh crumbs! We won't have any more plays ever! What sort of plays? All plays. Well I, it wouldn't worry you, you aren't gonna be there! Yes I am! All the year. What you mean, play time? Yep. Well that's hardly fair if you didn't do it! Who did it? They don't know who did it! Who do you think did it? He's got a good idea. Well I think the person's very selfish not to own up. And do you know who he thinks it is? Who Jeremy Jeremy . I wouldn't be surprised! And he won't, and he wouldn't own up ever! He would never own up. Well that isn't very fair on the rest of you though is it? Mr has got he said if you're don't own up you'll put everybody in doubt. Matthew didn't do it. hasn't he been very well? Dunno. Probably, cos he wouldn't of missed a trip would he? No. Has that tape nearly finished? I've no idea Jonathan I'm not looking. On side B. well dad'll probably ha , he usually has a lot to say when he comes home from work he's been home and rushed out so I Oh. He's had to go and get a battery for the minibus. I'll tell you what you can do on the freezer there's some cat food for the cat you can feed him that. All of it? No not all of it! It's only half! I don't know how that tin got left out there. Nor do I. And then you can bring yourself a couple of pizzas in. But I can't reach the pizzas. Yes you can, they're on the top, you reached them the other night. These will do. from down the bottom. Will you please try them? But it hurts my belly! It hurts! Oh go on Jonathan! But it hurts! Why does it hurt your belly? Well cos I have to lean over! On my belly! Well how do you think mum does, she isn't half much taller than you anyway! Yeah but you can go like that cos you got long arms. Would you go down a hole if it was life or death that was just enough for you to get into Yeah. and Stay in there Jonathan cos . erm it was about a foot wide. . Wouldn't you? Not if it was life or death? Wouldn't you ever do it if it was life or death? Pardon? Would you do it if it was life or death? Well I suppose I would have to. I certainly wouldn't like it. Nor would I! It's got a load of rat holes in! Can't smell in that. I can get to the . Hurry up! Shut the door, I want to garden. No I ain't gonna talk to myself! Well just keep saying something, keep talking to me! I can't you berk, you're right outside the door! No I can still talk ! Don't he look cute! Well I'm not really keen on having a box of Lego on the dinner table. Oh oh! Well I don't really think it's right do you? Yes. Well I don't! I do. I'm just getting out all the good bits. I hope dad's not gonna be too late Yeah. cos we was late home for tea last night weren't we? Yep that's my dad! That's my daddy he is always la la la la la late he never comes early early on He's always late, that is true. doo doo doo doo doo da Oh God! what does it mean sugar There goes the phone. Wha shall I turn it off? No, that's alright. My I wanted to do,is said my name is Jonathan do do, doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo do da da da da da da da money dee da my name is Jonathan ee ee ee dee doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo din din din din din din my name is Jonathan din din din and it's mine and it's mine oh oh oh mum mum bom bom bom bom bom, bomby om bomby om doo de doo doo doo doo dee dee dee dee doo doo doo dee doo doo dee dee dee I said my name is Jonathan come on mum I kept the cassette going. Oh. It hasn't started yet. I want that pen. Just so you know mm mm, mm mm mm mm mm mm . All these people want cars, I can't understand it normally they don't want this time of year. Yeah they've changed their mind haven't they?catch me up and . Renault's out that's on there the cars he's got that You can catch me but you can't catch me yet Come on mum, they want you talking! I know,yo , I can't talk every five minutes of the day. Well you've got to if you want to keep the money. Is that all you think about is money Jonathan? Mm I thought that's all you thought about! No I could do with a lot more. That's what I mean. That is the more I think about it though. That's all I think about. What? That's all I think about mm. I know it is. I hope daddy will be Right, Clare she said it's not fair! My sister is getting the compact disc for five hundred and ninety nine pound and I'm only She's lucky then! getting a computer for a hundred and ninety nine pound! The price isn't the point. Blooming heck four she, her blooming sister's getting five hundred, she's getting four hundred. Well, I don't know where they get their money from! Nor do I! And they got a Skoda! Well that, precisely. Well they just gone to , they're going to Europe. Oh are they? Mm that's what she said. Did she? Yep. She's a funny girl isn't she Jonathan? She's weird!. Cos she erm she's throws a wobbly quite often don't she? Yeah. Is she like that in class? Yeah. Is She? Yep. for doing it? . Oh no she doesn't do it in front of Mrs . I shouldn't think, she hates Mrs don't she? Does she? Yeah, I dunno why. Mm, I bet I do, ha ! Why? Well Mrs only tells her off when she's naughty. Well she ain't really I know she's not the most popular person, but she is right a lot of the time. Not all the time though. Well not all the time, nobody's right all the time, but she is a right she is right a lot of the time Jonathan because some of them children misbehave Who? terribly! Ooh they had a lot of bangers this morning! Bangers? Smash, crash, bash! What was is then? Everybody fell over. In the first play. Oh. Cor right, there was one little boy I felt sorry for him right, he went up, down, up, down, weee! Want Ben you know Ben don't you? Yeah. He fell over, Jonathan could you take that Lego box off my table! Mm. He fell over and his tooth went straight through his lip! Urgh! We had to take him to hospital and he had three stitches in it. weren't it? Yeah Ben . I thought it was Ben ? I don't know who took him. No it weren't Ben . It was! Ben you know Lisa ? That isn't Lisa, that's erm Emma. no, what's her name now? Helen? Nope I can't think of her name. It is, Lisa! It isn't Lisa erm she's got blonde hair hasn't she? Dunno. Oh, I can't think of her name now cos I got a mental block. It isn't Ben ! Are you talking about a boy that plays with Sarah ? Well I don't know, he only comes part-time. Oh. Yeah well maybe in the Gemma Gemma . That isn't Ben! Gemma and Ben are brother and sister How do you know it is Ben though? What is it then? Not Ben. Well anyway, him then. Yeah. Did you know? Yeah. Was a lot of blood. Mm . How did he fall over? Oh he'd been tripped. Cor right, he went woosh! Woosh! Woosh! When he got up they was like that. What? He had a tooth, that went straight through his bottom lip. Yeah you could see the tooth outside, I thought Ahhh! Yorrible! My name is Jonathan Mrs said he was ever so good. Mm. Well I think we better have our tea if daddy's here in a minute. So get that Lego off the table and you tea. My name is Jonathan, I am a boy I'd like to be a big fat boy ! Don't be silly Jonathan! I've got an ambition and it is to grow fat I'd like to grow like a big fat . You're not funny, that's ever so silly! Can you guess what the last one word was gonna be? No. Now where's Fudge in or out? In. Is he? Yeah. Was she still ? No. You all going down Robert's tonight. Yeah! Alright. Doo doo . I think tea will be virtually ready. Well come on dad if he comes. I suppose I'll have to put his in the microwave, I can't keep messing about like this. If he comes now it'll be perfect timing. What? If he comes now it'll be perfect timing. Well he did the other night didn't he? Walked in as I said it. Yeah you go well if dad don't walk in, any second now and he walked in! I know he did. Come on now I want the Lego off the table please! And I said in a minute. Don't be so cheeky! isn't cheeky! I warned you the other night, me and you gonna fall out if you keep being cheeky. That ain't even cheeky! Remember what erm two christmas cards today look! Who from? One from Mrs next door Mrs ? You know, who used to be there? I said hello from the . Oh blimey! Hope life is treating you well. We shall have to pop in one of these days and surprise you. I've got a headache. I can't remember what they look like. Meantime we wish you a very happy nineteen ninety two, our warmest wishes Carole and Ian P S Julian bought his own place two years ago. Who's Julian? That boy, their son, the young one. I can't remember them! And that one's from Michael and Nathan and Gareth. Gareth? You know Michael ? Didn't they come down here, them two boys one night with their dad? To pick up a well they come here one afternoon to pick up a car. What when we ni , when played that football game? Yeah that's right. One of them was about my age weren't he? Yeah I think he goes to when you go. Does he? I think so, I'm not quite sure. I liked him. I bet he can be . I tell you who else goes when you go, erm Who? Dale. . Is it Dale? Dane? Dale. Yeah he goes. And Dale Dale. Well I don't know his name! I Er lee ee ooh I don't know them all. ee ee ee ee ee ooh . Hey right guess how they put We Three Kings, it goes this is how Gary put it on the sheet, he goes We three kings , no is bitter perfume he will die and go in his tomb . Who said that? I read what it said! People die and what? Go in their tomb. Something like that. Well that ain't very nice! And i and instead of Ma , no Frankincense to offer have I , he goes,Frankincense to o , no,Frankincense to Jesus to Well you'll singing o for the infants aren't you? Yeah. Well that's gonna be in the church then, that Yeah We three kings of Orient I, What . That's in a week! It's next week! No it isn't, it's the eighteenth. Well it ain't the eighteenth next week cos the . We're doing it next week! Well I don't think you are. Next Friday I think! I don't think so. What's today? What's the date? What's the Well it says on here look Jonathan, if you look! What's today? It says a Christmas service will be held in the oh no it isn't the juniors are now helping the infants with their nativity story on Wednesday the eighteenth of December this was originally a advertised, by me, at taking place at six thirty in Walton St. Peter Church, I'm afraid this was a mistake on my part, as in fact the performance is rather ten thirty on the da on that day at Walter St. Andrew Church. This timing will enable even the youngest children to take part. Mum'll go to that cos I like carols. I'm not! Well course you are going to it! Don't want to! Why? I don't like them new words! They're rubbish! Right, and the other story goes The angels go to Be Can you get off to sing to him I'm ready! the angels going to sing to him. I'm ready Jonathan! Now quickly! Get them in, get them in, get them in, them in get them in, get them, get them in, them in doodle oodle ooh,. I'm sitting here tonight. I'm sitting over there mum. Why? I like sitting over there better. Well then why did you let me put all your things you have that side? nee nee nee nee nee nee nee nee nee nee . Right, let's give you some chips. . Is that enough? Who was that first one from? What? That first what? fit four people in there won't we? Where? This , 's, Auntie Val. Yeah a lot of people have been there, I do agree. Helen or Yes. is that who that was from? Yeah, Helen,yes. Oh. Ooh that ball isn't half noisy, I hate that ball! Where's my beans? I think I'll t Beans, beans beans please! beans, beans, a beans, a beans . Where's your manners just lately, you've lost them since you've been to school! Mm. How many do you want? That's enough. Thank you. What? What are you me for . Don't show your ignorance please! Don't you mean I don't what you mean! Well there is a please and thank you word! Yeah thanks. Oh dear! Uncle Ken went up there. Up where? The play. Oh no that's all I need! . Yeah? Can I just ask you . Yeah well he's not home yet. Isn't he? No. Oh alright I'll come, pop back later then. Yeah he shouldn't be long before he's home but Yeah. pop back. Erm I can't tell you what time he'll be home really erm well say in the twenty minutes he's bound to be home cos he he's been home and then he's had to shoot out again, he's gone to get the battery so he won't be long. No, alright then. Alright? I'll give him a bell about in half hour about six o'clock? Yeah yeah that'll be fine, yep, yeah. Okay then thanks a lot. Okay then yeah, bye! Bye! About half five! Silly git! It is half five! say that about people mum's awful saying that! Especially when the tape's on! Ooh I forgot about that! Yeah well mum can't he looked alright. Ooh! I burnt myself! I've done you one as well. Oh no! What are they? Oh well me and dad will have to have more each. I don't think you'll like them anyway Jonathan. I've had one before didn't like it. That's what I thought I should think dad'll come home now that he's gone. Erm Put it on the table cos he's bound to walk in. I bet he doesn't. Yeah, if you put it on the table he won't, and if you don't Well I'll leave I can't wait any longer, I'm hungry. Mr went to the dentist this morning didn't he? Dunno probably. He just after dinner or this morning. Who did you have teaching you this morning then? Not all morning. Well part of the morning, who taught you this morning? Mr . I thought you said he went to the dentist? Mm nobody we just had to get on with my work. Oh Mr kept an eye on us. Which classroom was he in then? Mr next door next door. Oh he's gone back in his own classroom now has he? No it's just they need a teacher. You need a lot of teachers don't you? Yeah. What teacher do you like the best? Miss . Do you? Ooh that's nice! Well you can't have it, you've eaten yours! Oh. Have it next time. Did Kelly go on about her teeth? No. Never. What? Oh I had a giggle! Oh! I had a tiny bit of a giggle! Why? Poor she didn't actually go to the museum at all. No she went to the dentist instead, I mean the hospital. Yeah. She was gonna go erm when next door went weren't she? Mm. Have , enough of her Jonathan. And I thought wergh! Is it? No she's only having her teeth out! Yeah but she's diabetic. She was really worried, she was going Yeah but she's under anaesthetic. Cor I wouldn't! But she has to cos she's a diabetic. So!. Mm just a sec. Here's comes your dad. Talk of the devil! I should think . that's er staying outside. to his stuff. Mm. Oh yeah. They want it about eleven but I said, can you get down to get it? Because your dad won't be there, will he? I have a your dad can I thought it'd be back by now. Aha. And also that young chap's been here for the van. Oh yeah. It was a nice little feller. Yeah and he's he's gonna ring you about half past six. Was that that bloke that rang me up? or anything like that. No Dunno! What colour coat has he got on? Got jeans on him. hasn't he got a red coat? He had another boy with him might But who's got a red coat? Had he got a red coat? I dunno. Cos if he had a red coat, with a little white patch on it I see him walking round the village. I have had them erm Mm. you like them do you? Yeah. Oh. I don't mind them. Where's your other half then? You what? not needed, give me that half. Don't like the peas. Oh I thought you was on about the pie. No, don't mind the pie no I meant don't like them new peas. They ain't got a lot of flavour have they? No. I've done all inside that van. Mm. Just gotta wash the outside. you wanna charge for it. Yeah, cos it's Sun , Saturday. No he don't, Mr has it tomorrow! Ooh crumbs! What are you gonna say to him? Sorry you can't have it. Well he's moving furniture as well. Well you said to me he could have it he said I'll have tonight. Yeah but he must bring it back by nine! Why? I forgot Mr was having it. Mm. So your mum won't be able to go shopping till nine then? No. Well they don't normally go till about nine anyway well they can't cos the post office don't open till do you want a coffee? No I'll have a cold drink I don't mind what it is. Do you know I've been so busy, I done that van this morning, I've done my housework and two loads of washing been over Petes' did I tell you? Yeah. rang you? No. Do you need salt? No. Do you the pies? Make a change didn't it? I quite like them. Yep. Not a lot of meat in them though is there? Oh, I'd have this then I Who's is that? Them ones we got from . Oh. Posted them letters did you? Ha! No. Where are they? to post tomorrow. Well I'd have done them myself! Well I got a post office aren't I? We ain't heard a word from Jimmy have we? No I got . Pardon? I got . Why, what you gotta do? that car back from Fiesta got the minibus going out got the estate car,he and Jimmy's look, he talks about Mr , he has left that like a tip! It stinks of kid wee! But to work this morning, I could of done it! Mum? I said take the bus. Yeah but you said you'd be busy! Yeah but I could of when I got home! Now I've gotta do it in the dark! tell me . Well the hoover won't , except I had to scrub that mini that erm that van, it was so filthy! Yeah. And now who ? He did. Jimmy did. I wonder where he's getting his vehicles from this week? He's got his ain't he? I thought you said they stopped the ? Well, he isn't supposed to be using it. Can I have a spoon please? The bailiff said he couldn't use it. Bloody ridiculous that man! So someone bought the bailiffs in for sixty two quid! A T S. Who's A T S? Tyres and . You don't owe them nothing do you, I hope? Nothing to do with A T S, don't like them. Precisely for that reason I should think! Well wha what he said was he went up there there's erm could they put on the front wheels to the back and the back wheels to the front didn't say anything the bloke said, well we can't charge you. Oh. And the bloke said well we can't charge you for that. So this is isn't what it's all about? Well, that's how it all come see he owes them a hundred and seven pound and er when he asked them change the tyres over they wouldn't do it. Oh. Yeah but they said we can't charge you for it he said we sell a new tube or sell you a new tyre he said we can charge you but we can't charge you labour. That's ridiculous innit? Yeah, so he said well charge me for wheel balancing then or something no he said, we can't do that. He's just being awkward by the sound of it. So he said will you do it for nothing? And he said it's not a charity case! Could you pay him to do it? He says no. Said fair enough he said and with that I come out the garage. Well why don't he use that bloke at St. Johns, who you use? He does now. So erm he's phoned up me your money cos he said they daren't put me in court you see. Well that's a ridiculous thing to do! Well they say they're gonna put you into court, you get it paid don't you, before anything goes further? Yeah yeah well you see what he said was he could not see how they could warrant him that sixty odd come as interest justify doing it. It will all depend how long has he owed them it. Possibly about a year I think. Cor! My God! So he said, I'm not having that! And walked round ah so they er got a, sort of court bailiff involved. For sixty two pound, it must of cost them more than that! Cost a lot of money I would of thought. They obviously don't like him do they? No well erm it's a big firm so Perhaps it's what they did in is er . Yeah but he's got his self a bad name now isn't he? Yeah. It made me laugh when your mum kept on about him last night, about having all his hampers stolen. Yeah. Twenty two grand! Ridiculous innit? The blokes on the make isn't he? Yeah. You see he's and then he had the cheek to charge me for insurance! Well I expect him to pay the insurance. Who did pay the insurance? did, but I gonna give it back. Well I should think so,gonna get twenty two grand out of it! Cos he'd have taken them to court and said well he didn't even pay it, I did! Well actually they erm I think the maximum they'll pay out is eighteen thousand. Yeah but I don't think that's gonna be such an easy case to . Well, I don't. You know it looks to me They said they'd got it. they think that it's all cut and dry, well they haven't got the then people will come round and investigate yet! No. Mum that'll come out on the tape! Well I can't stop it cos the kettle's boiling! Don't be silly! Mum is there any shandy please? Baby . Jonathan put that straight in the bin for mum, will you please? Yeah. You yum You know . Colin? Yum. Who's got a . Yeah. he was saying , they're going to Yarmouth. Ah! I see. that's where they're going cos he said they he's not actually for the itself Yeah. it's you know, for the workers, they're going out on a meal. So who's paying it then? He is gonna pay his self. Tomorrow? Yeah. Oh that's . Well they can . Well I presume so. What did he er He ought to have done it through the college got it cheaper. Ah oh oh! He said this is nothing to do with the college. Why don't he er Well I suppose he's, the man's got his reasons. I was gonna say what you mean, put petrol in it? Seems stupid! Yeah cos you gotta lay out money aren't you? Yeah so if I decide to Oh he said, when he's finished I don't whether he's not picking it up till later on. Ooh and another that's what I wanted to tell you about well I don't think we can help him out. Oh well. Gentleman wanted a minibus Yeah. now, he talked rather nice erm with having four Yeah. I can't remember his name at all I can I can't think of it now. I'm gonna go and watch T V. Well what he wanted, he wanted a minibus from there to there and there well we can't can we? We can have one from there to there but he can't have one here. Daddy, mummy Can he? thinks the key was down I the Jonathan I don't really Just a minute Jonathan , let mum because the college has got one there Yeah. Toby's got one there and got the other one there. Yeah. Well what time is Toby coming back? Well so he can't have that one then? And the Isle of Ely college is going out for a meal, so that won't be back, so he can't have that one, so we haven't got one! No. For Friday night, but he can have one sort of, first thing Saturday morning. But otherwise we haven't got one. No er erm, and that lady's gonna ring about the Fiesta and then that young boy's gonna ring about the van. Hooray! But that means that won't get cleaned outside for Mr Mr . Well but it's very clean inside, I scrubbed it. Mm. And polished it. Mm. I wouldn't of thought he'd of worried too much about the outside. Well it isn't that bad, it's only down the bottom anyway. No, under the right hand side, there's none the left hand side Well I said I only washed one side. I started washing my . Who turned the light out? I did! Why? Well that's gotta be back by nine in the morning. Yeah. As long as he's got that back in the yard by nine. Well I did see him, he seemed alright but you see you can't tell what people are like,yo you may think they have ni I know. nice personalities but he could now do a runner with our van couldn't they? Yeah. I reckon that's what honky tonk was on the other night though. Yeah. Was he? I reckon he's in trouble. Yeah. So let me just think. So well, he could have the van well how much would you charge him for tonight? Twenty quid. Yeah cos Mr 's got the Renault. I told my mum Oh in decent state he didn't last time I scrubbed well I wou go on Monday? No. Oh. Yeah well they sho I said I'd I was looking through this Mm and I was thinking cor we say we haven't been doing very well, but look at that week there! And then look it's not Yeah. too bad for this time of I bet we're doing better this year, this time of the year than we did last. Yeah . Well you see you do that minibus want cleaning up, that blue one or was that clean before we put it in the shed? No that's part of the the windows washing but I'll quickly washed over them just to spruce them up a bit but I thought if I put Mrs in that, is she driving, or is she not? Erm, I should imagine so. Yes, she is. Is she? Don't she like the column change? No. Oh God! Well I can't help it. Well you'll just have to explain to her, the other one Yeah. hasn't come back after you've Well no , no what I'm saying was, the fifteen seaters here you see but I can't, I shan't be put the petrol in for the both shall I?clean tomorrow night. Well I don't know what time she's picking it up at actually. Oh. I should imagine that's his number. What number? I hope he paid you this week then. Yeah,. Well you with his money you can pay off them two bills. Yeah. Cos yo you don't put them through do you? His? Have you No. put any on ? Well then forget about this time, that won't hurt will it? We've been doing alright otherwise. Mm. Pete was talking about his Roly he said June, he said he is such a character! So I said, is he? So he he's been up he's one of type of dogs, he said like a human you wouldn't know if he went in the house they wouldn't know whether he was coming out with a double barrelled shot gun to shoot yourself or Yeah. with a glass of sherry in his hand! He said he's Yeah. one of them types! Yeah. Pete was hoping they ain't drunken no cider! He must have had four glasses while I was there. Oh lo erm I shouldn't talk about him cos that's not nice and he said , I said to him . Yeah. and there's always loads of sherry glasses and wine glasses all over! Yeah. They must both drink. Cliff erm They're not even afford it. That's right. Cliff had a do again tonight with Kim. Whatever for this time! Well same thing. Well I thought he didn't go down there any more? No. As we was just coming home. She stood there yabbing at the end of the counter, when are you coming out! He said oh for God's sake shut up Kim! So she said er shut up your fat ! She didn't! He said I've told you before he said, if you ever say that again he said I was gonna knock your head off! And anyway I walked past him and he went back and he was sh moaning at her so erm two of the old boys he'd been working with said whatever's all that about? So there. I said oh another one! I want well out of it, so course she come in got changed, so he said to me I would like you tomorrow to have a word with Robin about stopping her coming down to us he said because erm it makes me feel very uncomfortable he said and we had that hassle he said it's a load of nonsense he said I've forgotten Well I suppose it does make him feel uncomfortable. Yeah he said I've forgotten about it Blue's forgotten about it he said, but she won't let it rest he said he said it's Well she's a child, she's only a child Geoff that's Yeah. why. Yeah he said I'm not having he says. She's like a spoilt child, she's gotta learn to Yeah, he said from there soon. That's what he said, he said she can throw a tantrum he said and get everybody sort of feeling sorry for her he said, as and when she wants he said. Well I suppose it probably wasn't tha , a complete pack of lies Geoff. Yeah so he said I I want ca , Robin to stop her coming down here he said. So you've gotta be the one who tells him. Yeah so Ivan said Well I think he's right. yeah, so Ivan said to me, he said er he said well I do I suppose you have noticed he said but whenever she comes down here he said the whole line stops I said I quite agree I said well let's be honest about it if he's knocking out the meat he , it's gotta stop cos he stops Jonathan ! he stops talking to, stops to talk to her I said and obviously if the meat isn't coming out the box, the meat isn't coming out of the box! Well that's right. Well that is right innit? Yeah. But she's like a child really you gotta pity her really haven't you? Yeah. But the point is, why should other people suffer her. Yeah. You know, they shouldn't have to should they? No. All that worrying! Terrible! My best friend's lost his father and he said well I lay awake all last night thinking about it. Well I thought Good God! there's nothing you can laying awake . No. Well oh he said it's at work and oh God! Well they ain't bloody paranoid isn't he? Well I wouldn't like to say he's paranoid but I said well that's like cos he said you must our house is filthy June? I didn't pass comment. No. So I said well, that's like this Pete, you live the way you want to and I'll live the way I want to, I said it's immaterial to me. Your paying me to keep it a bit tidy, I said and that's what I'm paid for, I said I ain't paid to pass an opinion whether it's clean or dirty he said you sound just like me June, I said oh do I? I said well I'm not bothered what other people do, I said they can Well if he was tidy you wouldn't have a job would you? What? If he kept the place tidy, you wouldn't have a job. Well I nearly said that to him, but I thought ooh no! But, I thought to myself well that's up to him how he li , he, he lives his life. Yeah. I don't want my house looking like a tip! But i but he is bothered about it. Yeah. He said and that's Tricia, he said she he said when I used to live on my own with Simon Yeah. he said, and she used to come down he said she used to think I've got another woman! Li li whatever for! He said cos I used to keep the house tidy he said I've been the in the army June an he said I can I can run a household he said but we and then working the shifts I do he said and go up the horses and that he said I just don't get time to do it! He said well you know I, I iron mostly, most of the ironing, I said yeah I know you do. Whatever does she do then? Well well he said when he's not there she comes home she cooks them an evening meal but she's she she's she's got a p , he said she's gotta give some time to Harriet, that's not fair Yeah. if she don't, I said well that's true I said you can't and we're not gonna neglect, which they don't. Yeah. And then he said er by the time she's sorted out and washed up Yeah. and I thought, she don't wash up, she Yeah. leaves it for me! Yeah. Erm it's tha then getting towards and she's gone down and done the horses he sh he said it's then getting to Harriet's bed time so she baths her all sorts her out and he said well she does work hard, he said and by the end of that she she won't be able to do anything else! No . Well I said I can understand that Pardon? I I said well I suppose it's I do and he said but you work hard June, I said I know but I said kno I said what I do, I can only have hour out there and an hour inside. Yeah. And I said I can sort of keep on top of mine, but I said I am up early. Yeah. He said well Trish isn't. I said well I get up early. Mm. If I'm doing like my jobs. Yeah. I said I'm, most morning I said sort of every other morning I'm ironing here at half five Yeah. I said because if I don't I can't pick up all this. Yeah. Cor he said, I wouldn't wanna iron that time of the morning! I said well I'm afraid if I don't, I said, I don't do it! That's right. I said and I do I said I can't bare piles and piles of ironing. So he said well if you'd have come over this morning June you'd have fainted! So I said why? He said well there was Talking about fainting I still have my I can't standing talking about bloody ! What're you gonna now then? Take this bloody car up! Yep. And he picked up four people on his, on that, imagine your the bus driver. Yeah. A man went to Edinburgh Yeah,then. and picked up five people on his bus. Yeah. Then he got four off in Kings Lynn three more got on at erm Queensgate Yep, come on then, get your shoes on! and a little boy nipped on to see his mum the boy never got off so he was still on the bus Yeah. so that Here's your shoes. then him and his mum got off along with the rest of the people what was the driver's name? Dunno ! Your the driver! Oh ! James did that to me , me and John, I was thinking I went Fred! He goes, I didn't know your name was Fred! James who? He was fighting everybody yesterday! Yeah! What was the matter with him? They were giving birthday bunks! Did you give him his card? Yeah. He isn't having a party did he? Yeah might do. Oh I don't think he is at this rate na , Jonathan! No he might he's he might get a few friends and go out or . That ain't tight enough mate. Yes it is! Right do you wanna quickly do these up? No. Oh alright then, that's up to you. No. Now look Jonathan! I'll put them in the deep part. Okay. Now look you've got to give that ticket back to Mr otherwise you won't get a Christmas dinner! Oh! There it is in there, and there's ninety p , there's a pound coin in there and then I'll sort out about the dinner money with Mrs . Yeah. Alright? Yeah go and leave it on the side for now. Go and what? Oh blimey . Why? If he gets he will. Oh blow him! Do you not wanna go to ? I don't mind. Well this is for the Chris ins , When have you gotta have it back by? Well you can take that back now, as well. That's on the twentieth of December in the evening time. Yeah but why do I have to take it back? Well you can take that one back Monday. I'll take it back on Monday then. Shall I wait and think about it? Yeah. Go on then. Bye! Be a good boy now Jo learn those ! I will! Alright, bye! Bye! Yeah see you! It's gotten off of me. That good is it? Now. that away. Have you come across anything think ooh we could do with a look at that? Erm no. Oh. Erm Okay. Are you still working through past papers? Not really. I mean she, actually she might have given us . Just been given a new exercise book, textbook. So you've been, you've been back at school since I saw you last, and you've just Yeah. been working on What? Graphs. Graphs. important thing about graphs. Erm. Are they ? If there was an exam question which said sketch a graph of, where would the marks be found? What would you get marks for? The axes. Okay, X and Y. The points Which parti particular points? Points given for like co-ordinates. Erm let's , if they say sketch a graph, Right. I they wouldn't give you any points. Erm directions. Or shape of the line. Okay, general shape. What would be the interesting parts of the shape? Where it crosses through the X and Y axes. Okay, X and Y axes, anything else that might be an interesting point? Erm . Just checking it was on at a reasonable volume. Erm end or anything else that might be interesting . Mm. Where it cross the X and Y erm What's where are the interesting points on that? Er er er there . Okay and these are, these are fairly interesting as well. Just . What's happening in the, near the, the limits? As X becomes a very very very small number, or a large negative number, if you like to think of it that way, where X is very large. So, sketching a graph is not the same as plotting one. Mm. Any idea what that graph would be? X squared. Erm, what would not quite the right shape what would that graph be? Y equals something plus X squared. Right, there'd be some X squared in it. And there might be, it would be something X squared, and there might be something X and er well there's definitely a constant Mm. Yeah. cos when X is zero still there's Y has still got a value. So that's going to be minus something Mm. so it's about minus three. X squared cuts the X axis in two points. Two points. This one Three points. It's So? X cubed. So this is, there's going to be an X cubed term in here somewhere, and there might be X squared and Xs and anything else, but if it cuts it three places, it's got three r three roots. So it's X cubed. What about this one? I have to sketch curves This sort of thing. Just touches. Y equals X squared. Something like, it's going to have an X squared in it somewhere. It's a bit lopsided, but it's Where's the X, where's the Y? It's gonna be about plus three, three plus. Mm. X squared. So it'll be something like X minus three X squared. Mm. if that's three. Just touches. Counts as two coincident roots. Two which are the same. So X equal three or X equal three. Yeah. sort that one out. Erm don't forget these endpoints. If you have something like Y equals X squared plus six What would that look like, going as X goes from minus infinity through zero to plus infinity? What would be the interesting points on that? Erm that'd be six. Y would be six,. Mhm. nought is six. Erm What about when X is about sort of point one. Nought point one. What's Y equal to, roughly? Approximately. Just over six, six point s two. Six and a bit. Erm that's when it's minus nought point one four, or plus nought point one I went through the minus point first. It's still about six, six, six and a bit. What about when X is sort of around infinity? What does it approximate to? Erm minus infinity. So, it's minus infinity or plus infinity. When X is very large or very very small. at minus a million. Erm What would that approximate to? A million plus six. No Do you enter a big competition, and you could win a million pounds plus six. Compared to the million pounds nobody bothers much about the six, so Just a when it gets very large, Y is roughly equal to X squared. So if you know the graph of Y equals X squared which unfortunately I can't draw tonight it's draw it for you, could draw it from the inside keep telling everyone else. Right. Now, there's a Y equals X squared. Yeah. So around here, round this bit,there won't be any difference. Hmm. Around six plus six, let's say plus six in there. For, for some length, that'll be sort of almost flat, won't it? I mean Mm. till we get to X equals a one and it starts making a bit of difference, so it'll probably go like this. Okay, so a lot of it, that's a very important, those are sort of very important parts of the graph. Tend to Mm. get neglected. People say oh I'll take it from minus five to plus five. Right? If we had something like Y equals erm X minus ten. Right. Times X minus erm or times ten minus X like that, okay. Funny way of writing it, but you ca you could write it that way. Ten X. Erm people might say oh well we'll take it from minus five to plus five. Yeah. And you'd get some sort of shape. But you'd miss a lot of important points. Yeah. Erm if they took it from minus ten to plus ten Yeah. you'd see a lot more things of interest and maybe say oh I'll take it from minus fifteen to plus fifteen. But you're still missing out a big, very important part of the graph, because for a lot of its range it actually, you know, looks something like well what would that look like? When X is gigantic. Ten times. If, if X was a million say, you could forget about a million minus ten, let's just call it a million, times ten Ten. minus a million, we'll forget about the ten, just think of the minus a million. So it's a million times minus a million. Roughly. A million times minus a million? Ah. Minus. What's, okay, let's come down a bit. What's plus three times minus three? Three. What's plus three times plus three? Nine. Right. And, minus three times minus three? Minus nine. No. Minus three times minus three? Oh nine. Right. So,. It's a million so one million It's a times minus one million. Is? million times And what is the sign of it though? Minus. It's the same Right. So it's minus a million squared. So wh when X is very big well, say, when it's big compared to ten Yeah. this looks like Y equals minus X squared. Mm. And this part of the graph, in there I mean that wouldn't start showing until we get beyond about say twentyish. At that point, it could be doing all sorts of weird things, and you'd think oh, I've got this wonderful graph and I plotted a lot of points close together, so I know my sketch was right, because it looked like this funny W thing or M or something Mm. erm it might well look like that for that very small piece of graph, but the overall picture you've lost completely by not going far enough so you, you want minus infinity to plus infinity. When you substitute infinity in, just think well if it was about a million, what could we ignore? I mean, you could work all this out right. Ten X plus another ten X. Okay? And then minus a hundred and minus X squared, and put the millions and things in but don't need to. You've got it factorized like this, you could just, oh, that's about a million. It's about minus a million, so it's about minus a million squared. And there'll be marks going for . It's where most people throw it away on the sketches, they just pick a tiny, tiny portion and look at that in great detail, say ah, look at that, wonderful. Mm. But you've lost the, the overall shape of it. Tt, erm plotting graphs, you had one question didn't you where they asked a gradient? Yeah. And you measured it with a protractor, Mm. it was forty five degrees so you thought it was one, but the scale was two to one. Yeah. The gradient is the tan of the angle, but you can only read that off the graph if you've got the same units. Same scale on the X and Y. Erm what would be let's say someone gave you this find an approximation for the gradient erm Y equals X squared minus one. X squared? Y equals X squared minus one, at around the point where X equals three. Someone wanted to know the gradient. So, so Ooh. you d you'd have to find Y. Okay. So Y is three squared minus one. Yeah okay. be Y would equal eight. Yeah. Erm so Good. Right, draw a sketch, cos we need to know what we're working with here. So Y could perhaps equal three. the rest of the graph the opposite point. Right. Good. It's symmetrical down the Y axis. And the lowest point. It'd be about one . About one. What's the graph going to look like here, when X is very big? . X is going to go up when Y is a million. X X is a million. X is a million. What, what would Y be? A million squared. Yeah. So th the minus one doesn't make a lot of difference, so as X is very, when X gets very big, it'll just look like Y equals X squared,taking one off if Mm. you're working with millions of millions. So it looks like Y equals X squared, moved up a bit, more or less, as a good approximation. I mean a hundred is probably big enough, twenty five might be is more or less big enough. Mm. Er five, say we can have five here, you can have twenty five,over here somewhere, Mhm. behind your shoulder. Yeah it'll actually be twenty five minus one, Minus one. but it's a good enough approximation just to see what it'll look like. So how do you work out the gradient? Well you see, it's pretty flattish isn't it? The gradient of a curve is the gradient of tangent, so we can draw a tangent where you wanted it at that place. It would be the gradient of the tangent. Mhm. If it was at the bottom where it's flat, where you just, you're just coming down, and then you started to go up again, just at the bottom there, it's, it's zero for a moment. But what would the gradient be there, and how would we find it? Er It would, it, up here. So could you do an approximation, a ver just a very rough guess. I mean does it, does it lie over that way or has it sort of gone back on itself? Lies over that way? Yeah. Is it more or less straight up? More or less horizontal? About forty five or? It's probably about seventy. Right. Maybe seventy, maybe eighty. So you could draw a rough sketch like that, Mm. just measure it with a protractor, or measure along here. That would be if we drew wh wh how do we find the gradient really? We draw a little triangle, don't we? Yeah. So at point one, it's nought. What would, what would that be at the point two? For X Three. equals two? Two three. So we could get the point two three, and we could take the gradient of that as being fairly close to the gradient of the curve. Mm. Erm how can we get it more accurately reflecting what's happening there? Right. Point something. So if we did something like that that's where we want it. That's where we want the gradient Mhm. and we took a line from there to there, where this is that's where X is equal to, that'll go far. Nought nought point nine say. And just the other side of it, where X equals one point one. Mm. We're going to have, difference along the X axis will be nought point two. Yeah. Find out what the difference, what the, don't forget the difference On the Y axis . on the Y axis. So. That's point two there. So what's, what's the value of Y going to be? When X is nought point nine? Point nine squared, minus one. Okay. We can forget about the minus one because we're going Mm. to take the minus one off again on this one so we've got, the difference is going to be X one squared minus one minus X two minus one is X two squared minus one, minus X one squared minus one. And they're just going to Cancel. cancel out. one. So the difference is going to be one point one squared minus nought point nine squared Point two squared. Is it? Two point two . Can you remember the factors of A plus B times A minus B. A squared minus A B Yeah. A squared minus A B Plus Plus B A. Minus A B plus A B? two A B. No. It's not two A B, it's minus A B and plus A B Plus A B. which cancel each other out. Yeah. Erm Then plus B times A m Minus B squared. minus B squared One point one squared Minus Point nine squared. A squared minus B squared so it'll be, be one point one, plus point nine Minus. times one point one. Minus. Minus? nought point nine. Nought point nine. I mean you could square them on your calculator, it might be easier. give you twice Two times two. nought point two. Nought point two squared would give you what? Point four. Point four. Try it on your calculator. Point nought four. Point nought four which is s very little. Mm. But twice point two, Give you point four. will give you point four. A hundred times as much. Mm. So here we've got This is less than one. squared. squared it gets smaller and smaller. So that's going to be nought point four. Mm. So the gradient at that point is about two. Erm what wh where were we where did I say find the gradient? Where X equal to three? Yeah. Sorry something wrong that. So we'd be, oh, okay, that's good cos you can do it. When X is three? So when X is two point nine, say. Two point nine, and then Y when X one see what Y is down here. It was three point one. Don't forget you can look at this, Y equals X plus one times X minus one, which, when you see it that way tells you where it's going to, where its roots are. Where it's going to cut the axes. Yeah. X So there Y will be two point nine plus times two point nine minus one. Right. Which is three point nine times nought point nine, Okay. But f we can, we can, we can save that to the end because I think that was Aye. confusing probably wasn't it? When we're doing it this way, we can forget about the, with this X, X two is going to be three point one squared Minus one . minus one. This one is going to be two point nine squared, minus one. Yeah. Subtract them that way round. They'll go out. And we've got three point one squared, minus Two point nine squared . Two point nine squared . Mm. Which will come to, if we add them it's six times nought point two. The gradient will be one point two. That's a bit better because a gradient of one is forty five degrees and we s we said it should be more than that. Erm one point two. Find out which ang what angle has a tan of one point two. Tan minus one . One point two. Fifty. Fifty. So you were, you were closer to seventy. You see how hard it is to see just from the graph, from a, from Mm. a sketch, if you plotted it on paper, but this is without plotting it, we're getting it quite accurately. Erm maybe someone says it could be useful for you to try it again, without any help from this page at all. So we've got Y equals X squared, minus one. And we want the gradient at the point where X equals three. But we want to get very very close to it, like only nought point nought one before it and nought point nought one after it. So what value would ? Around the point where X is three. Erm so you'd need nought in the middle. No, I'm not thinking of drawing a sketch at the moment, we've done the sketch on the other page Ah. and we're just thinking of what value are we going to, what would be the value of X point nought one before three? Er two point nine nine. Okay. Two point nine nine would be one of them. Just after three would be? Three point nought one. Right. Right? And in between would be three. Between would be three. Up one that, we'll just take . What will Y be when X is that? Erm two point nine nine squared minus one. Okay. So you'd just write it as, I mean as it's minus one, you can take it off as you go along, but it's, sometimes it'll be a minus six or something, so write it as two point nine nine squared minus one. Erm three squared minus one. Okay. Now subtract when you have to that Y from that one. Okay. It's two point nine nine plus three point Mm. Oh Oh, yeah, don't, don't do it all in your head. Okay. Do the first stage first. Take that expression away from that, and once you're left, what happens to the minus ones? They cancel. Right. So what are you left with? In terms of the squares. Two point nine nine and three point Which one's first? Two point nine nine.. Now we'll just take the That, three point nought one, minus Right, so it's three point nought one squared, Minus the two point nine minus Erm What was the difference in the Xs? Point nought one. Point nought two. Point nought two sorry . So we put that underneath, on the bottom half of the fraction. Okay. That's, that's Now when you've got an A squared minus B squared, you can factorize that I mean you could just do that on your calculator, and do it in one go, but it's quite easy to do it as three point O one. A plus B, times A minus B. Okay? So three point nought one plus two point nine is point nought two. No sorry, is five point six. Is six. And the the top is six. Six. Times. Times three point nought one minus two point nine nine , which is point two. Equals Six point oh two. Now work out what it's equal to. Okay. All over? One point nought two. Right. Do they just cancel out? Right. They do cancel out. Six. Six. So the gradient Six . Wh when you do it to sort of fairly accurately like that, it six. When we did it fairly roughly, it came to one point two? Yeah. Erm six Because, because we didn't do this bit did we? That should have gone I think that was wrong. That should have been six times nought point two over Minu Yeah. Which again comes to six. So, that's more like it. What's the, what angle has a tan of six, then? Now it'll be in the seventy or eighties. Eighty. Eighty? Good. to be fifty. Erm you can do that with any curve. If I gave you sort of X to the seventeen or something, well you could put two values in. And you could bring them fairly close together and say well I can't tell you exactly what the gradient is at that point, but if you draw a tiny little line and take the gradient of that. Mm. That's er that's good enough, that's close enough. That's a very good approximation. Yeah. So gradients are a very important part of, of sketching a curve. Erm you already pointed out some of the important points where the gradient gets to zero. Erm does, does things that might be interesting? Okay. You've already mentioned it earlier, actually, symmetry. Not always symmetrical about this axis. They might be symmetrical about here or here. Or it this way round. What's that? What's that? That's a . Erm Well I mean what gives you that? What gives you that? Well, what does that look like from the way you're looking at it? s The way you're looking at it, it looks something like erm Y equals X to X the fourth plus three or something. Mm. Good. So looking at it this way up I mean it's X equals Y to the fourth plus three and that's all minus. Mm. X X equals three minus Y to the fourth. It's a funny way of putting it. Yeah. But you could write your equation that way. Er if someone says that's not good enough, I want it in terms of Y equals well okay we'll have to bring the three over to this side, and take the fourth root,. But you can always swap the axes, if you don't like what they give you. Mm. So if, if I say draw erm Y equals the square root of X, and you think I haven't got a clue what that looks like. You can square both sides. You can draw Y squared equals X, and all you have to do is say well, I can draw the other way round. Mm. Y equals X squared. You draw your Y equals X squared,turn the paper round that way, and whichever way, I'm going to draw Y equals X squared. And erm Y equals X squared, and that's Y and that's an X. Then turn it the other way up to get X equals Y squared, and now that's the Y and this is the X. And this is a, should have drawn it that way round, Mm. to get the, the X squared, this would be the minus X squared. Mm. X squared look like that. Y squared equals X. Yeah. Erm you don't have to do that very often, but it is sometimes, it fits. It's handy. Rather than doing it the other way. What, what have you been doing with graphs at school? Erm Sketching and plotting? there's the revision . . Have you done every one? Every question twice three times? Four, even. Oh, that's too many. No actually, Oh you'll have to Oh I'm sorry, I'll go back to three . you'll have to do them all you'll have to undo Do them or something. That's it. Do them all backwards, yes. I haven't got it with me. Mhm. Yeah. Okay. So you've been sketching them? Yeah. And plotting them? Mm. Have you been erm Speed-type graphs. Mhm. Good. Aha, have you been asked, erm what is this? Here's a graph, now guess the equation? No. No. Okay. You don't really need to, but it's, there usually isn't time to cover it, cos you've got other things, but it gives you a much better feel for it if you, if you see the other side of the picture all the time. That you're not just in isolation, looking at one little thing, because you can miss a lot. Erm you might think that all graphs always look like that, or bits of graphs are always like that, or where does it all tie in? Distance time graphs. One of those on every exam so far. Mhm. Yeah. Yeah. Are you happy with those? Er I think so yeah.. Okay. What's, what's happening here then? This is a good way We do them in physics. Oh lovely. Thanks very much. Okay. I Right, that's erm as time goes on along there, Mhm. this is displacement, which is the distance from a fixed position. come from that way. bit of negative time in there. What's happening there then? Well it's speeding up to there accelerating and it's Mhm. It's speeding up again. What's happened? That's, that's, that's a, that's a straight line, and you say it's speeding up? That seems to imply that, I don't think it's speeding up,doesn't it ? Yeah. Erm So the gradient there, is S over T, how far you've travelled. Let's say these, let's say we mark this off in one second intervals along here. If I got the intervals right they'd be the same. So every one second, it's gone another ten metres or so. Yeah. Gradient is the same all the time. Ah, so it's just steady Fixed constant speed, constant speed. How about have a bit so that bit Erm don't know. Mm. S I'd say that's ten metres or something. Where are you after one second? Ten metres. Ten metres. Where are you after two m ? Ten metres. Mm. It's not moving. Mm. As time goes on, its distance stays the same. Now it looks like, ah just stopped moving again, straight line, fixed speed that, this looks as if it's accelerating. It's very, it's deceptive if you're not working out what you're doing and relating it back to the graph, and relating it back to physics, to an experiment you're doing, someone's checking the clock every second to see how much further it's gone. Oh well, in the last second it went another ten metres. Last second it went another ten metres. It's going at a steady speed. Fixed constant velocity. But here, that's still where it was last time I checked my watch. Yeah. Not moving. So that's a steady speed. And it stops. That's, it changes abruptly. From a steady speed. It doesn't need to brake or does it just? Mm. If it's a physical body, to change speed, it'll have to have to brake. And the s what would, so, that's a fixed speed. There's another str another straight line . There's another straight line, another fixed speed. Which one is faster? Every one second,ten metres. Every second that's going more than ten metres Right. So that So the steeper it is? The faster. The faster it's going. So at this point, it's almost flat. So it's going very slowly. Now what's happening to its speed? Accelerating. Yeah. The speed is increasing. Sort of Stop. sort of actually stops, and then it's going very slowly again for a bit, and then what happens here? very, it just goes very fast Right. in a very short space of time then, but then carries on. Very short space of time it's gone quite a distance. So that was a, that is at, that constant speed there is much faster than, than this one. And then, it's stationary It's for a while. And then Just goes down there. What's happening here? Deceleration. Well let's make, let's make this bit a straight line, from there to about there. That's a straight line. So, well let's go back to the physics. We've just been going on timing it for one minute or something. And we time it again, one minute and one second It's reversed. It's reversed. How far away was it when I started the watch? Thirty metres away. How, how far is it after another one second? Twenty metres away. Ah. Ah! It's coming back. Okay. So that's going backwards. Most graphs will keep going on up, and there's a tendency for people to make them come back down again Mm. or at least to where they started. That means it's going backwards. Erm now you don't do, paper three, you don't do velocity time graphs, but you probably do them in physics don't you? You would do them in physics. It's just like pure coincidence. Aha! Oh that's a good one that. Revising it yesterday to be honest. That's a good one. got all pictures in it. Yes it has, but these are, those are, I've seen those before and they are very nice graphs, I would recommend them to anyone. Right. So, you were revising them yesterday. Should I Well the big thing, ah. See, it's very easy to get confused between distance against time, speed against time, and even acceleration against time. Yeah, because I mean it had them in our exam, Right. in our mock, we had like those four pictures, and you had to say which was It comes up time and time again, and you have to know the difference between the different types. So you also, when you get used to each type individually, need to then be able to switch between Mm. between one and the other. Yeah. So if we've got erm acceleration against time and we get, no, no peeping. No peeping. We get a flat one, what does that mean? It's Every one second, you've gone further. We haven't gone anywhere we've measured the acceleration. The acceleration there is say forwards. One two And for every one second, you're going forty metres per second. So you're going at a steady speed. Per second. It's, it's a, it's an acceleration, it's metres second to the minus two. Now are you happy with that, because most people aren't? Okay. We'll come back to that in a minute, but let's say a rocket, or a car, which would you prefer that do? Car. Car. Constant acceleration car. Erm no frictional resis resistance, you just put your foot down and it's, you know where a car accelerates from rest Mm. and then after a while the acceleration reduces? The speed is still going up, the acceleration, and eventually it reaches a top speed and it stays there. Mm. Okay, it's zero acceleration, it's not getting any faster. Mm. Erm how would we measure that? A constant acceleration. Say we had an accelerometer. An acceleration measurer. Mm. Which force on a weight or something can feel acceleration, I think you can, my son said you can't but I think you can So, acceleration is a constant. What's your eventual top speed? It just, just keeps going faster and faster and faster and faster Infinity. Infinity, speed of light, when you hit something. It's pretty high. Mm. Erm now how are we going to measure acceleration? Let's say we've got erm a radar for, for measuring speed Mm. velocity. Okay. And we'll set up a, so we're going to, you, you devise an experiment, Neil. Measure acceleration. There's a car, and we want to know its acceleration between two points. doesn't matter. There's your car. Erm you start the stopwatch. Er stopwatch you m you time it from there to the ten metre. Erm what's along your X axis? Your independent variable? Time. Time. So, when would you next check its acceleration? Would you measure in terms of distance or in, in terms of other time Time. Ten seconds. Ten seconds. We'll make it one second. Okay. Make it one second. Alright, make it ten. Sorry,, make it ten seconds. Plus one second. Then the you have to have y how far the car has travelled, Do you? know how quickly. What is acceleration? Give me a figure, that you might have seen in an advert, when you're drooling over BMWs and things, Maseratis. Miles per hour. Telling you about its acceleration. What does it say? Goes from nought to sixty. Good. In? Six seconds. Six seconds. Nought to sixty in six seconds. So those are the units of acceleration. From one speed to another speed, In however qu in so, so much time. So let let's say, instead of quoting from nought, they said well a much more useful figure is perhaps, which they do quote in lots of these car magazines, is erm forty to sixty Mm. because that's what you need for overtaking someone. You can go from forty to sixty in point three seconds or something, you can really shoot past anything on the road. So forty to sixty, miles per hour, metres per second, whatever you like, let's say metres per second. Let's say it goes from forty to si forty metres per second to sixty metres per second in ten seconds. More of a slug, this car. So what would that acceleration be? How w what would the units of acceleration be? Twenty metres per second per second. Twenty metres per second, per second. Per second. It's simpler to say per second per second . It's Or per second squared, or second to the minus two. What is this rubbish, it doesn't, doesn't, cannot possibly mean anything real. Mm. Well, it is real. It's erm fifty miles per hour per hour. Yeah. Right well we'd normally say, miles per hour per second. What's, what's your acceleration at the moment? Well it's ten miles per hour per second. Okay? Well every second, I'm going I'm going ten miles an hour faster. So miles per hour per second, or you could measure it per hour if you wanted. Every hour, I'm going six hundred miles an hour faster So so it's miles per hour per hour. you'd need a stopwatch and a speedometer. You'd need a something to, I say, we've got something to measure the speed, radar gun, Mm. not interested in the distance, just the velocity, the speed. How fast is that car going now? Okay, he's doing forty miles an hour. Measure him again in one second's time He's doing sixty. he's doing sixty miles an hour, so his acceleration was twenty miles per hour per second. Per second. Twenty miles per hour per second,miles per hour, what's the change this miles per hour into metres per second. Okay, so,say a hundred and twenty metres per second per second. And that's where your per second per second comes in. Are you a bit happier with that? Yeah. But not totally convinced. No . Erm that length per time per time, is the unit. Let's just have a little look. What are the units of displacement? Er What's the difference between displacement and distance? Displacement is how fast it's going, the speed. Miles per hour. Show me something that is erm arm's length away from, from your right shoulder. Okay, show me something else that's an arm's length from That's your right shoulder isn't it. Arm's length . I was expecting you to go like this. Right, okay, that, show me something else that's arm's length from your right shoulder. Right. Up there Right. That's distance. Mm. Displacement is distance in a specified direction. So if I said show me something that's arm's length from your right shoulder north, or up, or west or some way, okay, or on a bearing of thirty seven degrees Yeah. that's displacement. We don't usually tend to bother with distance much, so when, when the police measure your speed, they're actually measuring My dad's your my dad's speed. your dad's speed. Not mine. You don't drive? No, no, no. Yeah, of course. Can't be my speed. Not unless I'm on me bi on my bike, and I doubt if they'd measure me . you, you did eighty on your, on your bike did you? Over, over fifty on a pushbike. Do you know Bo ? Yeah. You know Ben Lech?hill, red hill going down to ? I was young and foolish at the time, Fifty miles an hour on a bike ? Very, very high gear on it, we used to go out a couple of us And er we were passing this M You've got this on tape remember? Oh no! We went past this bloke in a Morris Minor, a convertible, with a eyes streaming, it was really hard to see, and clocked his speed at fifty, and er the bloke behind me nearly got hit,because when I went past this bloke I went all over the road. No you didn't really though did you? Ooh no. No, no you didn't. No officer I didn't. Distance okay? Yeah. And displacement. When they measure your speed, they're measuring your velocity really, they're measuring it in a particular direction, along that road. Mm. Erm so we'll call it distance, right? But we're actually talking about displacement, just so that you feel more comfortable with it, cos there are other things coming up to make you feel less comfortable you see. Okay. So the police say you were doing forty miles an hour. You say how do you know I was doing forty miles an hour? I wasn't driving for an hour, you weren't following me for either an hour or forty miles. They say, ah well, we followed you for a tenth of a mile, right, and it took you so long to cover that. And we, our little machine here has calculated it that that's forty miles an hour. Yeah. Okay, so what did they do? They had your hundred a hundredth of a mile say, let's say it's erm let's say it was a tenth of a mile. Nought point one miles. And they divided that by erm nought point O hours. Mhm. Right? And they said you did point one mile in point O O one hours Hours. so what speed is that? Er Have a guess at it then check it on your calculator. Point one divided by point zero one . Will the two first cancel out? Do they? No. If I gave you this tenth, hundredth, thousandth okay? What would you do? Run. that's hours. Are those? That one and that one cancel. It would cancel out. So you've got one over one hundredth. So that's a bit tricky that, doing it that way, you've got one over one hundredth . The, the easy way, do you like fractions on the bottom of fractions? No. Oh, times by ah. What are you going to times it by? Times that by ten over one. No, times that by a thousand over one. Times that by a thousand. Okay, and you've done, you've done that on one bit of the fraction, so you must do it on the top as well. Times that by a thou aargh. You've got to times that by a thousand. Okay? Multiply the top and bottom of the fraction by the same Mm. thing. So why did you multiply that by a thousand over one? To get that a thousand times a tenth. So doing a hundred miles an hour. Well,for a hundred miles or an hour , but you did a tenth of a mile in a, a thousandth of an hour. Yeah. So, you did so many miles per hour, we calculated, you would have done so many miles if you'd been going for a full hour at that speed, so your dis your, your speed, velocity really but we'll call it speed, right? Your speed was so many miles per hour. okay. And then they measure your acceleration. Well, when we first clocked you, you were doing a hundred miles per hour. Yeah. One hour later, Yeah. you were doing five hundred mile an hour . It's you on your bike isn't it? It is . Shh! I'm sorry. You're not on your bike. I don't mind I don't mind confessing b up to fifty, but five hundred mile an hour, even in a, in a foreign country, like Wales it's a bit much. Okay. So, you went, you gained four hundred miles an hour In one hour. per hour. You're accelerating at a rate of four hundred miles per hour per hour. Per hour. Mm. Mm. So that means in another hour, you'll be going nine hundred? I in another hour, I'd be doing four hundred more than that, so nine hundred. Or, I mean this is if it's an average, and sort of an even acceleration. So before you were doing minus three hundred mile an hour. Yes. Bet you didn't expect to minus, did you? I, I, I haven't recovered from that yet. Yeah I know. Negative speed. Yeah. You're reversing at minus three hundred miles an So acceleration is rate of change of velocity, Mm. which is something like speed, only it's a bit it's got a direction. Velocity's given a direction. Yeah. Right. And velocity is rate of change of displacement. Which is sort of distance, but with a direction. The direction that velocity has got comes from measuring the distance, the displacement, in the direction. Right? So if we say he went from, let's, here's, here's a map. And there's north. Mhm. Right. And let's say he went from there to there. A distance of two miles in one hour, this time we're walking. Mm. Let's make it half an hour, okay? Then Speeded up . his displacement Is two mil the amount he walked was, his displacement was two miles south. The distance he walked was two miles. But the displacement, how far is he from where he started? He displaced himself by two miles south. Two miles south. Okay. So his velocity, Yeah. if he did that in half an hour, what would his velocity be? It's just speed given direction, so two miles Two miles per two miles south, in half an hour. Two miles per, one mile per hour, Mhm. per Mhm. Is it? If he did two miles in half an hour, how far would he go in one hour? Four mile. Right. So it's four miles per hour per hour. Per, no, well Per we're just talking about this velocity stuff, Oh, so it's four miles per hour. South. South. So you have to put the south? Four miles er hour sou If it's a velocity. If it's a velocity. They won't bother with it on G C S E maths, but physics they want to know the difference between velocity and acceleration. So, if he was going, if he, he's walking and he breaks into, a breaks into a trot, A Trot? Gallop. A canter to start with let's say. Oh no, that's horse racing. I I don't want to talk about that. My horse won. A National oh! Ooh. My horse won. Ooh. Oh dear . And did you have a lot on it? Twenty er Twenty million? Twenty pounds was going on it. It was just in the sweep. Oh. Sixty to one outsider, and I thought oh well, I don't stand a chance on it. And it won. Is, it was my sweep that I was doing so I'm keeping the money, nobody else can have it. Since my horse won. Well there was, did you hear about the woman in Ireland who won about a hundred and fifty thousand? Did you hear that? No. Oh, she drew, she was the only one who didn't draw a horse on the National, Mm. I think it were the Irish Times or something, or the Irish Betting Times or something like that, and she was the only one who didn't draw a horse, and she thought oh well that's it, no chance. And they, they, sort of the panel met, and they decided to give it to her, because hers was the nearest to a result. What? The other people who'd drawn a horse, Yeah. well their horse This is a sweep? Yeah. . Yeah, this was it was some form of competition, I didn't hear what Yeah. it was, I just caught the tail end of it on the news, on the Yeah. radio. And erm, but they decided that as she hadn't drawn a horse in the National, she'd got the n she was the nearest to a winner that they could Aha. find, because all the other who had drawn a horse they, they were void. Yeah. So she won . And she'd already decided, no chance I didn't draw a horse. Cos she didn't draw a horse she won, yeah. cos she didn't she won. Mm. Did you put a bet on? Did I? I didn't. You're a mathematician. I I often, well, usually, if I'm in the country at the time I bet on the National just for a, for a to sort of waste some money. But you've got to check out the odds . I l I do check out the odds , Yeah I thought you might do. and erm I only put place bets on. Last year I had a place bet on the winner, I couldn't even tell you what it was now. But I didn't bet it to, I didn't back it to win, I only backed it to come in Each way. the first four. Not each way, just place. Yeah. Just er wh when you put an, when you put an each way bet, you put two bets on at the same time. Mm. One bet says that horse will be first. The other bet says that horse will be in the first three. Or if there are a lot of runners, that horse will be in the first four. Mm. Now when you're, my grandfather, who was a serious betting man, always used to tell me, he was pretty good at it actually, he'd say no good each way bet. Betting against yourself is an each way bet, you're just giving money to the bookie . I thought well you give money to the bookie anyway, but Yeah. so erm I just put a place bet on. And put it on, they used to give me tote odds, sometimes I asked for them, usually they'll automatically give me tote odds. Sometimes I've asked for them. Now the odds on the tote, I mean if you looked at the, I didn't bet on the National, cos I didn't like the odds. Mhm. There was a race just before the National, might have been the one before, or the one before. But something like erm a five or six horse race. And they had seven to one, there was eight to one, there was a ten to one, Mhm. National, a forty horse race more or less isn't it, thirty Mm. nine or something, Thirty nine,. thirty nine horse race, anything can happen. Yeah. Absolutely anything can happen in the National, as, as was yeah. proved this year. Mm. And they had the, the erm they had sort of five out of the five or six horses that I thought were in with a good chance at eight to one. They were eight to one in the National. I, I'd take eight to one o over any of those brilliant horses sort of getting round once. Yeah. I thought, these bookies are going to rake it in. So I was I wasn't disappointed then Yeah. that they didn't. But I thought it was very interesting, Peter O'Sullivan didn't have a bet Yeah. and he said it was the only year that he hasn't. I thought he knows something. There's some fix Er no, quite often, I mean there was seventy five million pounds Yeah. on that, and it was a lot of money. And my old grandfather used to say too sometimes I'd say it, what do you think of this horse, and he'd say oh, it's carrying too much money. Yeah. Too much of a favourite. Too, too mu too many people betting on it. Something, something or someone will get to it. So it'll come in a close second. And Yeah. the odds will be such that it's not worth doing for a, a place, but if you're betting, I mean forget how much I got last year, but I think it came in about thirty to one or something. So I didn't get thirty to one, I got Mm. a quarter of thirty to one, which is still Mm. much better than backing it to win and it comes second. Anyway, it did win, and the wife was saying why didn't you bet it, why didn't you back it to win! Why didn't you back it to win. She backed the second each way, despite me saying I'm not, I'm not going in there and back it each way for Yeah. you . Oh alright, alright, I will then. But erm, so she got erm she, he made a bit of money I think, I think I went rash and put a fiver on. It's just the fu I mean I, I'd ne But it's when you're watching the race. I'd never bet on any ra I'd never gamble, I mean, I would as a joke, but like not serious. I mean, the National I thought, yeah, it's a good laugh like. And that's the fun of it, any horse could win. Anything could happen. Much like it did. But I mean my sixty to one horse!, never even been heard of. I mean the jockey, the jockey Oh, I wouldn't I wouldn't was crying. He would be. But, mind you, there were a few very good horses that d weren't Mm. in it. Yeah. I suppose I, I, I wouldn't have given that a chance, I must admit I would never have backed it. Sixty to one,. Sixty to one. I thought before it, well, forget that one. I had another good horse, and I thought well I'll stick with that one, I think that one might stand a chance. And I saw it, and they g and I saw it wasn't going to happen. Like, when they all went off and I thought well I don't see, why don't they just stop it. And like I thought oh well, I'll watch it like, and they're commentating anyway. didn't know whether to you know, whether to commentary Yeah, I know, they're like . Well, they're doing well there, it's all a waste of time I mean Yeah. Yeah. obviously. And like, kind of I saw my horse, it took the lead near the end as well, it was like go on, go on, go on! And it won. And I thought oh well. It's a wonder that bloke didn't get lynched.. Yeah , I know. But I think I heard on the television like somebody goes I'll see you in court, I'll sue you for millions so like, it's terrible, but I mean, they, Desmond Lyneham was int was erm tt talking to so to someone from Ladbrokes, Mm. and he goes well that's a million to one chance that that would, and Des Lyneham goes I wouldn't have minded having a little flutter on that . And he goes you couldn't have got the odds on it like putting a pound on like, I bet you no horses finish, you know. That wasn't five pound, I remember now. It was five one pound bets that we put on between us, I put two on, my wife put three on, and all mine were place bets, and I got the winner and I got the fourth, and my wife got the second, and the other one of hers lost. so we were alright. But mine were only a quarter of the odds they were paying at Mm. But still. erm and hers were a quarter of the odds, plus she lost her stake on the part that was betting on them to win. Mm.. Yeah. But I mean I was thinking like as well cos like we did taxes like a few weeks ago didn't we, and the tax that the government get off that race, I mean seventy five million on the whole race, Right. betting tax and then and then is ten percent now, isn't it? Yeah , well I paid fifty pence per horse, on our five horses. What stake? But I er it was about two f yeah, I put a fiver, but I put it each way, so Five pound each way? Yeah. So it was a ten pound bet? Two fifty. Yeah. No, it was three horses, five pound bet, Mhm. on each. And it was fifty P. I think, I can't remember I don't understand what your stake was. It was, I put five pound on each way. What was the total total money that you, that you put on? Oh, they take tax off now, don't they? Yeah, or Yeah . Aye you can either pay for tax when you pay, Yeah. or take it off your winnings, but I'm not going to take it off my winnings so Yeah. So I think probably about ten percent, so they lost Yeah. about seven seven and a half million. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Now, so these racehorses, let's draw a graph of the racehorse. It's not called actually It's called erm What was the one with the erm Scudamore ? Scudamore, erm Captain Dibble. Captain Dibble. I fancied that. I thought it Yeah, I thought that was, I had a bet on that. Captain Dibble's good chance. So there they are, ready all ready for the off, Mhm. and they're not fidgeting, they're absolutely motionless, and they're at the start line. Yeah. So time is zero. And displacement, how far they've got from the start line? It's zero. Is zero. You put S for displacement. Which is why we don't use D for distance. Right. They're off. And it's over to Ruben at the, at the stand commentary box. Okay. Well Ruben, what's the displacement like, tell us all about the velocity and the acceleration? How's it going? I'm waiting for I T V to get there, okay. Oh it's a false start ? Yeah, yeah. Alright. They've got negative acceleration. They're all going backwards. So for each one's like ten metres, Now along here, is your time. Oh. So, ten seconds. all of these all these graphs that we're thinking of have got time along the X axis. what's happening every ten seconds . So for every ten seconds there the horse s its displacement is . So it's a distance they've got away from the start. Ten metres. Ten metres. ten metres. Okay, so in the first ten seconds, probably gone about Let's say they go at . Wh what happens from start to They start off slow and get then faster and faster. Okay, so the gradient which shows you how fast they're going If it's more or less horizontal, they're still. Mm. If it's just a little bit of an angle, they're walking. If it's almost straight up So it's going to be they're doing two thousand miles an hour. It's gonna be So it's going to go up like that, gradually Good And then Okay, take it up like that. So Well, they false start, and now they stop. Oh. Okay, they stop. They're decelerating . They've, they've stopped, they're just standing, stood stationary not going anywhere. Yeah. Right. Come back. They all come back to the start. So, it'd be the exact opposite . Er they walk back. So ah. They w they turn round and they walk back. So they'll be ah. So it'll be just like Yeah, nice . A gentle, a gentle slope, so they just walk back. Like that. They stop. When they get back to the start again. In fact they go a little bit past the start. And then they come back to the start again. And they stop there for a bit, when they've gone past the start. Okay. go back to the start again. Okay? So they're off. That, that's, that's more of a, and they're doing very little to start with, and then they rapidly get up to their top speed, and they level out. And then the man goes with his flag. Whoa! And they stop. They usually don't stop dead, they usually dec decelerate, so what's happening here is I'll just draw it up here. Start off, the speed's nothing to start with. Mm. Or virtually nothing. It's getting steeper, and then, speed gets slower until it stops again. So zero speed, flat, level, okay? Getting faster, steady speed in that bit, and then from the speed there which is steep, as you follow the tangent of that curve, it's slower, slower, slower, and they slow down to a walk, and then they stop. Mm. Okay that was the first one. Now this time, in this re-run, the second attempt at getting this National started, not having any flags, red white or anything else,used a proper old starting pistol, and we fire it in front, Shoot the horses. and we just I'm sure that's why they just start it,just fire it across the line in front of them, if you want to risk a false start Mm. then fine. Yeah. But use live ammo. Yeah . Okay. Yeah. So there's there we are, and these are ten metres each time, so ten, twenty, thirty and let's say after after a hundred metres fifty forty. After a hundred metres you've got The Chair, that's where The Chair is. Oh not The Chair, the first fence. The first fence. The man with the little flag's gone somewhere. . Police notice saying no parking. So this time they get a good start, and they're off. Okay, so ten second intervals. And let's say that they're Mm. let's say they get up to full speed at erm after about twenty seconds, it's alright, I'm just getting them Yeah. to a gallop first. Oh r okay. From a racing start . If that was a camera. See . . N Not too much use of the whip. Yeah. Right, so after twenty seconds they're up to full speed, and flat out, erm they're at forty five degrees. Okay? They've a speed on this graph it would be represented by an angle of forty five degrees. So they start off slowly, Right. they get up to full speed, at twenty After twenty seconds. After about there they get to full speed. Yeah. So they start off about there. Mhm. Okay, and now that point. If that's the point there from that point on the distance. They've reached full, they've reached that. Mm. So if they kept on flat out, every ten seconds they'd go a further so many hundred metres, for ever and ever. They're going alright until they come to The Chair. Now, so that's The Chair there. On the approach to The Chair, they slow down a bit. Gather them up. . And then just as they're on The Chair, they suddenly accelerate violently, to pop over it. As they about a metre, a metre out from it when they take off. hop! They pop up and over it, and when they land on the other side and they slow down a bit. Back to their, back to their normal speed again. And then the starter recalls them. Nice walk round The Chair, and down there. Are you happy with that? Yeah. Okay. And let's have a look at this. Have you got a red pen? I sort of scrabbling about in my No sorry. On the sa these, these graphs I think look better on the same axes, if you've got different coloured pens. That one writes with its cap on. novelty. Now, how can you tell? That's distance, displacement, against time. Someone wants to look at, someone wants to look at that graph, and get some idea of the speed from it, the velocity. What would you tell them? How would you interpret that graph? I say well what's, what's happening here,what are they doing? For every ten seconds er no for w for twenty seconds, the first twenty seconds, they're accelerating to twenty me metres per second per second. Erm you accelerate to a speed. You can have an acceleration of so many metres per second per second. But you can't tell that from here, we're not, we're not, we're not into the acceleration yet. pinch that a minute. not to cut my nails. Ooh. So there's the speed, just after they've Mm. started. Hardly moving. Yeah. What's happening to the speed now? It's And now, and now it reaches its peak. And what peak does it reach? Let's have a look. Highest. Let's take from there to about, well there's four. About there to, and there's, there's two. So from that point to that point, you could work out the gradient. That's divided by twenty seconds. And what distance have they travelled, from there to there? Erm From twenty to seventy say seven call it seventy five. Twenty to seventy five. Fifty five. Fifty five. Fifty five. They've done fifty five metres. Not very fast at all, this lot. This is not going to be a world record-breaking National. Bit like this year. So they're going at fifty five metres every twenty seconds, and you can imagine Peter O'Sullivan, now look at this Pip, they're going at a, a nice steady fifty five metres every twenty seconds, what's that in metres per second? Well, divide that by twenty. Almost three Yeah. Wow. What's that in miles per hour? Well, that's almost one, one and a bit miles an hour that is. Yeah. Okay? So that's the, the, you can read off their speed from the graph, you can calculate it. Metres a second, sounds fast. If we made those hundredths then it might be a little. These were every hundred metres, four hundred metres is about a quarter of a mile, so quarter of a mile in twenty seconds. How far would you go in a minute? Four hundred metres in twenty seconds. So you'd go twelve hundred metres in one minute. Twelve hundred metres, and that's three quarters of a mile or so, in a minute, So that means the race should be over in about Ah. four mi in about four minutes. About forty five miles an hour. That's So we've now gone from a real slow one to a really definitely record-breaking Yeah . Car speed. So let's plot what the speed is at different points. What's the speed here? Well, Mm. how does the tan of that, the slope of that compare with that? This bit here is twelve hundred metres per second we decided wasn't it? Er per minute, let's do it per Mm. second, it's erm About three metres per second. about three metres per second there. So that's three metres per second. This is, now let's, let's mark up here. Now here, metres per second. Right? Nought, one two, three, and these are all metres per second. From that point, Mm. to that point, we're doing a steady three metres per second. Yeah. So that's what, that's what the velocity looks like. Mm. Steady. The distance is increasing steadily, the velocity is a steady velocity. And what's happening down here, the velocity has got less, here it's quite, quite a low velocity. The velocity is increasing, that angle is increasing. And that sort of, and it's increasing more rapidly at the beginning. Mm. They're probably goes like this, running like this. This is the velocity, and what happens here? Well the velocity gets a bit less, Yeah. We're still trave we're still going further away as time goes on, but we're not going as quickly. As fast, yeah. Now, acceleration, So as long as you're in the X positive, then you're moving in a positive direction, or a er Depends on which graph you're looking at, if you're looking at your, your displacement your distance, Mm. S against T,right, then as long as you stay in the positive half, you are on the right side of the starting line, you haven't gone back and crossed over it. With the velocity, as long as it stays up there, it's travelling in the direction away from the starting line. When it comes back over the starting line Yeah. then it's travelling in the opposite direction, it is now You could have gone velocity in the opposite direction. Yeah. And if this goes round a sort of roughly circular track, the we're not measuring velocity, we're measuring speed. So acceleration then. What is acceleration? Well the acceleration is the steepness of this graph. How quickly the speed is increasing as time goes on. So the acceleration here is sort of pretty sharp acceleration to start with, then a fairly steadyish acceleration, Mm. yeah? At so many metres per second per second. And then, what happens there, along this bit? What's the acceleration doing from there Remaining constant. to there. The velocity is remaining constant. The s s s The acceleration is, how is the velocity changing, how much is it changing? Three metres It's constant, three metres per second, constant velocity. Yeah. Got it? So the police got his radar gun on your horse, you don't get there first . Yeah. Right, what's he doing? He's doing thirty mile an hour. What's he doing now? Thirty miles an hour. What's he doing? Thirty miles an hour. Mm. What's his acceleration? None. . Good. Brilliant. This car does thirty miles an hour to thirty miles an hour in fifteen years. Right ? It doesn't matter how long it takes, it's going to, you know it's not accelerating. So its acceleration is this. Mm. a green one or something, but I'll do it as a red one That's pens for you. So that's its acceleration Mm. over that. So just over this short stretch here, which is the simplest part of the curve, a nice steady velocity, a nice steady speed, a fixed three metres per second, forty five miles an hour, whatever it is. That's its speed. So that's, that's, sorry, that's its, how its distance is changing as time goes on. This is over the same event that we've recorded how the speed is changing, it isn't, Mm. it's fixed, and this is how it's accelerating, well its acceleration zero all the time, he's not getting any faster. but how can his acceleration be zero? He's still doing the nice steady thirty. Yes, but he was doing that a second ago. And we're doing it in a second time. No acceleration, no faster no slower. So those three graphs for the simplest bit, superimposed. If you have a look through your, that really good book, Mm. erm, you don't like looking through it, but can I just look through for you and learn it for you . No. If, if you can look through that now, you'll get a lot of benefit Yeah. out of what we've been doing with this. I mean don't n necessarily mean this evening, or fairly soon. Erm cover everything else up, and just concentrate on one. And start with the how does the distance change as time goes on? How far from the start line have they got? . And look at that, interpret it, think oh well, the distance is increasing only fairly gradually as time goes on, but when it gets to there, the distance is increasing at a constant rate, as time goes on, so we've got a constant speed. But now it's not increasing as quickly, its gradient has come down a bit. Its gradient is the speed all the way through here. So then from that graph, try and predict before you look at it in the next picture Mm. how the, how the velocity itself is changing. I mean well you've, you've looked at what you think acce what the, the velocity is, which is the gradient on the distance time graph. Then check it against their velocity time graphs to see if it's correct. You get some funny bits or going the wrong way. Try and and work out why . And then when you've got, when you look at their velocity, velocity against time, try and work out what the acceleration is again it's the slope. when it's not changing. you're looking at the velocity, that'll be velocity, so where it's not changing, there, the slope is zero, no acceleration. Now if you take that through the examples they give, cos they're quite good ones in there, it will mean a lot. Erm I don't think, don't think there's a year since what? Since what? Well since that fracas with the Grand National that they've er that they've missed this. They always have a distance, time, velocity acceleration one of those on it. Probably only distance and time, distance and velocity. So probably won't need to worry about the acceleration ones. Very important for the physics, because what's happening at that point as far as the physics is concerned, when the acceleration is zero, not , think of a racing car accelerating up to top speed, down the straight and it just can't go any faster, it's got up to a hundred and eighty miles an hour, and it's Like going on a flat road, without putting the brake Yeah. the gas. Flat road, no brakes, and he's got his foot hard to the floor, it won't go any faster. Erm what's the, what are the physics of it? The physics ? Or the kinetics or . Without looking it up. What, what's happening? Why won't the car go any faster? Usually you put your foot down hard, it goes faster. Why won't that car go any faster? Because all the power its Putting all its power into it, okay. Erm its engine What's stopping it? Engine's reached its No, top force engine could go faster. Top force. Okay the engine is pushing as hard it can to try and, like a lot of people running behind leaning on this car pushing it forward, and why, why isn't it going f usually if you keep pushing something it goes faster and faster. Until Mm. it reaches top speed. Why does it reach this top speed? Erm Is it the backward force? The, because it's being pushed back, cos the opposite force, when you push, something else always pushes back with erm if you push on this table, Pushed back on me, I felt it, then shot off. And it stopped when it hit something. It didn't have much friction, so it was going along there alright. Erm Why do they do wind tunnel tests on cars? A wind tunnel? Erm a wind tunnel is where they put this, put the car in stands and they blow air at it, and they little smoke trails that show how the air travels over the car. Where it breaks up and makes eddies, turbulence. Right. It's the wind, it's, it's, try erm, ever tried running through fairly shallow water? To about just over your knees? Pretty difficult, yeah. It's the drag of the water, dragging you back. Well when you walk in air, there is a very slight drag, but you don't feel it. Have you tried cycling into a strong wind? Yeah. Especially recently? Yeah, yeah. And that camper is, is quite big on top, A lot of wind pushing I went down yesterday to erm . And it was getting dragged back and the engine was going like mad trying to push it along and the wind was pushing me back, and I was thinking am I going forwards or backward here? Erm normally, erm , normally it wouldn't, it wouldn't do ninety, but er it was all it could do to do sixty. Yeah. was the wind. I suppose, if the wind was on its back, then it'd get pushed along,. It does, yeah, on the way back on the way back it was pushing it a bit. Because of the way the drag works, it's better if it it's worst if it's not quite head on, but slightly offset from head on. Similarly with a tailwind, it's not exactly behind you, but just a bit to one side. You could feel Is that they're so low to the ground ? That's why all cars a few years ago started looking the same, now they all look sort of like this. R rounded, rounded there and not much there, and sawn-off at the back. And they're low to the ground, so the ground effect and that so the air can go over there,breaks up here and gets thrown off erm it's just the air. The To breathe? A clear airway? A clear airway have some causes of the airway, right what could stop? Tongue in the way Tongue The tongue well done Vomit Vomit vomit Foreign object foreign body, what did you say sorry? Hanging, strangulation Hanging, strangulation, that's right you can, don't forget you can block the airway from the outside as well as in Chest restriction Pressure of the Right, that's the next one, right, we also need chest movement right what, what can stop the chest moving? Stab wounds Thrush, er chest, er stab wound restriction, weight on it restriction , well done you're doing very well and overriding all this lot what do we need to Brain Brain The brain, right. I'm not going to go on to the things of the brain because we are going to do them further down the list. Sight and systems of asphyxia, what, how's a person he going to look? Blue Yes, they're going to look very pale with a blueish tinge Fingers Pardon? Fingers Yes extremities, the fingers, toes Pardon? Distressed Very distressed, yes, they can't breathe and your treatment for asphyxia? make sure the airway stays clear if they Breathe if they stop breathing? breath for them Breathe for your casualty, if they are unconscious what would you do with them? Put them in the recovery position Recovery position, right. Now the M here is for mind and that includes obviously brain now we come on first of all to the head injuries head injury there is a brain, now a pressure, accident which involves the head. It could be a break, this is the bone here, supposing there is a break there, pressing down on the brain, that is a head injury, this part here is the bolt by the way and that is a injury to the bolt of the brain, just the top. The base of skull injury is here, when you get somebody with that base. Can you see how thin that is there? It's very thick on the outside but almost, you can almost see through some of the bone in the base there and that can be caused by as, a blow on the head if it's the bolt of the erm brain that's caused, got the injury, or from the base of skull is usually caused by er landing on your feet from heights, and Jolts it's, it's the shock comes up the legs, if it doesn't break the ankles or feet or these it can break the bottom of the bone, a piece here, or it can travel up and break the base of the skull. Now either way, obviously it's a head injury and must be dealt with, but we're going to do an overall thing here by saying right, now the next one on the list is concussion now concussion is shaking of the brain inside the skull now there's noth no room for anything but the brain inside that skull, so if that's shaken the brain hits against the sides of the bra of the er bone, and bruises so what actually happens here is the brain gets shaken and the nerve cells get damaged now you've all seen this con and it's so easily done concussion, you can go through a whole list of things which can cause concussion, road traffic accident, sport, construction working erm anything that erm, heading ball, football that's another one that erm you get quite a bit of concussion and of course boxing Mm as we could, as I was talking to our group yesterday well, now that is the one game they set out to make a, your partner unconscious by shaking the brain inside the skull and that's what exactly what they're doing. A blow on the chin, don't forget the chin is part of the skull, blow on the chin, shakes the brain, your casualty gets concussion and they go unconscious now how's your casualty going to feel? Confused They're going to be confused yes, very confused, I mean on the football pitch you usually get the trainer run man and they're talking to the footballer and it's looking at them all the time and he will ask questions, erm what's your name? Where do you live? What were you doing? How many fingers? That's it how many fingers? And all these are telling him whether the person is confused, concussed or what, whether he's able to go on, alright, erm check the memory because that is a good indication. If your casualty, if you say to your casualty ooh what happened? How did this happen? And they say I can't remember it just happened so quick that I can't remember, they have been unconscious for a, it may be just a split second, it's affected the brain, they are concussed. So let's go through the signs and symptoms of concussion. They could have a headache depending on how it was caused, they could be confused, but not always and there could be that brief loss of consciousness and so you must check the memory recall if they do know what's happened well then go back a little bit further to see if they can remember what they did last night or something but erm, make sure, on that memory recall. Now the face when you look at them they're going to be very pale, cold and clammy the eyes well, erm, unless they're really into concussion they're possibly normal. You see with these signs and symptoms remember you don't have to have the whole lot a couple of them will give you an idea that this person is concussed. Their breathing will become shallow and the pulse rapid and weak where's your casualty going? To the hospital Going to hospital now concussion will lead us very nicely, have you finished that writing that yet? No No, not yet Concussion will lead us very nicely onto compression and if anybody in your place of work has a head injury at all a knock on their head and they say, most people do don't they? Oh I'm alright don't worry about me I'm, they, the person at home, their family must be told as well as you making a note in your accident book that there has been somebody with a knock on the head however mi minor it is, it's got to be reported, because that knock could have repercussions, it could have broken a small vessel in the brain, it could still be bleeding and that is when compression takes over. Now a compression is, pressure on the brain, caused by fracture, bleed or blood clot now if a person has been suffering from concussion and it's gone unnoticed, that bleed could be just carrying on and on and on and it could take up to four to five days before the compression shows itself so perhaps a week later they're sitting down to breakfast saying ooh my head hurts, now the poor wife or husband, or whoever it is doesn't know about that knock on the head that they had previously, unless somebody's told them about it mm, so your casualty now is going to have this headache and a beauty, they're going to be confused their levels of consciousness it will deteriorate face is very hot, dry flushed the pupils will become unequal and because of the pressure breathing becomes noisy if you feel the pulse, it's going to be slow and strong and you will get paralysis on the opposite side to the compression, what are, what are the signs and symptoms of? Stroke Who? Shock Stroke, stroke, not shock, what's the signs and symptoms of shock? Pass the body for bad circulation Yes, what's the signs and symptoms? Pale isn't it basic Pale , cold, clammy, yes, this is the opposite, you've got all the signs and symptoms here of a stroke, now if, this could go on with and erm if somebody, if something isn't done very quickly with this compression the person has still got this bleed, or clot in the head and eventually they just kind of all come up into the foetus position, literally all goes spastic, all these spastic movements right, you finished writing? No Hang on a second Nearly? Nearly Nearly That's where it all comes confusing cos there is things in there which still ascertains the shock in that as well as the other There's the shock Yeah, yeah right Right Yeah, but you're going to look at your casualty Yeah now there's no comparison in the pale cold clammy position that shock produces No to the hot dry flush that, that the stroke and the compression so there's the conditions there, your compression and your stroke will be identical signs and symptoms because you've got pressure on the brain concussion you will get all the sign and symptoms of shock okay? Does it make sense to you? All in favour say aye, how's that? Right, let's go on a bit further , so we've just done concussion, compression er the next one is an illness, epilepsy now epilepsy, two types, you get the petit mal which is the small fit and the grand mal which is the erm large fit or the full, full fit. Now anybody can have erm within the areas if you like our part, no you don't have to have all the signs and symptoms to say that person has had an epileptic fit. With petit mal, the small fit, it used to called vaguely, you could talk to somebody and then go on nattering away and then suddenly the person would switch off and then just stare and then after a while they come back and talk to you and it's, they pick up exactly where they've left off, so as I say it used to be called day dreaming, now that's the low end of the scale, now we go to the other end of the scale and remember please that there's no set type for an epileptic, anybody, anywhere, any age at any time can have an epileptic fit, you don't have to be that type, don't. Now what actually happens, now as I say I'm going to the far end, your casualty may literally shriek as they go down, now this is the person that has no warning at all, they may shriek as they go down and it's the air that's coming out of the body, they will go rigid as every muscle clenches, the teeth clench, the muscles go rigid, erm and they're going to be very, very blue because erm, because er they've stopped breathing which seems like an eternity. Now at this st this stage usually the do-gooders who don't know any better and put and insist that something should go in the mouth and it shouldn't, you never ever put anything in anybody's mouth at all. Somebody's car alarm's gone off no, right, now this where lots and lots of people used to really moan, the, the person that was having a fit would absolutely go through hell because somebody at some stage had said oh you must put something in a person's mouth that has epilepsy. The answer is once they've clenched their teeth there's nothing you can do about it, if their tongue is there I'm afraid it's just hard luck. Tablets control epilepsy very, very well now and you can go for probably years without an epileptic fit, then all of a sudden erm somebody will think oh I'll try leaving off my medication and of course they have a fit. Erm, er, now of course to get back to the ambulance erm if somebody comes out of an epileptic fit and goes immediately back into another one, then you must call an ambulance, it takes so much from the person, it takes so much energy that the person can't possible go into one fit after another, erm without showing some affects and therefore you would have to get them to hospital, if you don't and they have two or three fits one after another they can die, so they must go to hospital. Now if your person were to say come round, said it's the first time they've had a fit you get, call an ambulance, it may be epilepsy but it could be anything else, it could erm be, be the start of er something else in the brain because that's all an epileptic fit is, it's an electrical impulse, nobody actually knows why or when or how it's caused, but it happens erm, but above all be very, very nice to your casualties, they'll want to get up and they'll run away, they want to get out, especially if it's outside, because they're embarrassed by it. Now this is the time when you must watch them, because it can take from two to two days, two hours from two, two hours to two days to regain control of the brain, depending on the person and if it's, happens outside and they want to get away, stress the fact you get up and run under a bus and they don't mean to obviously Mm but they're not in control of their body, so you must watch them, talk to them and if, if you can walk along the road with them, talking to them now the, there is the other type where you get the aura, they know they're going to have a fit, so if somebody at your work place comes along and says to you I'm gonna have a fit in five minutes, I mean don't laugh at them and think ha ha, take them to a room where they're safe and this applies to all epileptic fits, they've got to be safe, so you're going to clear a room of any danger, they're laying down on the floor theirself because they've got time they know they're going to have this fit, if they've got something to put in their mouth alright they will put it in their mouths themselves and once again they've got five minutes to do it in and then that person will go through their fit, you stay with them, you comply by their wishes, if they say to you right, well just leave me when I come round I, don't touch me I'll be alright, they know, so you, you comply by their wish wishes, erm but only go in when you feel it is necessary, if they say right, erm I, I should regain consciousness in ten minutes and they haven't, you're there, you stay there in case make sure they're safe, there's nothing there that can hurt them, then they'll probably get up at the end of the fit and erm go into a room for a rest and say thank you very much and er, erm that's it. Right that's epilepsy. Any questions? How do they, what sort of aura do they get that they know that they're going into a fit? Erm, sometimes they get a certain er whiff of something er, you know an imaginary smell Smell erm, something may flash across the, the face you know eyes or whatever, it's er an aura that there is particular to them or peculiar to them. My husband feels as though somebody is co chasing him Yeah and he says he's after me and he just puts his arm round me and then he's alright after that Yeah and then he has a sleep for half an hour That's right, most people with epilepsy they're much better if they go to sleep and you don't wake them up, if you wake the person up from a sleep that's just had an epileptic fit they'll be vomiting, but if you let them sleep through it then erm, then they're usually fine. Right, next one is poison must get a move on cos we're running a bit late so as we're going to poisons later I'll just go on to say here that there's four ways poisons can get into the body. You can breathe it in through the lungs you can swallow it through the mouth, you can inject it through the skin and you can also absorb it through the skin. Now breathing, breathing in erm poisons, we'll go over this in more detail erm, there's so many things as we've already gone through that can cause us asphyxia, one of them's poison in itself isn't it? You've got to get your casualty from the cause, but make sure it's safe for you, now if it is a, a place where you've got to get your casualty out and you haven't got a lifeline and I must express this really that there must be two of you and if you are going in you only go in if you think it is safe to go in and you must have a line attached to you and there's somebody outside, so that if you do get erm overcome by fumes or whatever, they can pull you out, you are safe, they'll see to you, if there is no hope, you don't try to be the hero, what you do is go and make a phone call and get the professionals in, because they don't want to come along and have to deal with two casualties, when there's only one. So make sure it's safe, take your casualty from the cause, you may have to resuscitate, now if a person swallows something by mouth, there's two types of poisons, one can go by mouth and one is er corrosive and the other is non-corrosive, but at the same time you have a liquid or tablets, now if it's a corrosive liquid that you have swallowed or somebody has swallowed, it's burning as it's going down, and may I say in first aid you never ever on any circumstances make anybody sick er especially poisons, can you imagine if it's burnt going down it's probably perforated the food pipe and somebody comes along and overdoses on the water, because you can give sips of water for corrosive, well it's because you're trying to keep the airway open, if it's burning, corrosive is burning you'll get swelling, so this is why you give sips of water, but if you give too much your casualty will be sick and if it's burnt going down and perforated the tubes and they're bringing it up again it's gonna burn coming up and go into those perforations that and cause further damage. So what you're going to do with your casualty that's swallowed poison is, is sips of water while they are conscious, don't forget nothing by mouth once anybody is unconscious, and get them to hospital as quickly as you can. Now if, don't wait, if you know somebody has swallowed a poison whatever it is, get them to a hospital don't wait for the signs and symptoms to appear, get them to a hospital. Now if it's tablets they've taken we don't do whatever Angie did years ago in, in Eastenders and, and then she's walked up and down and given gallons of coffee, what you do is keep your casualty at rest, nil by mouth because you, if you give them any fluid whatsoever it's going to dilate, dilute the tablets that are in the stomach, and once they're diluted they've gone into the system quicker, mm, so there's nil by mouth, now if you're going to get up and walk them up and down because come on you must walk up and down, what's happening to this per these tablets? Going into system Being pumped They're being pumped around the body even faster so therefore that's going to take hold of the person faster, so you keep them at rest, into recovery position if possible and get help, don't forget to er collect any evidence of what the poison is, it must go with the casualty. Now injection, two types of people inject, the drug addict and the diabetic. Would you know if you came across somebody and erm could you tell the difference between a diabetic person and the, a per drug addict if they were unconscious? Smell their breath Smell their breath Proof of identification perhaps You could look for identification if, yeah Pupils Pardon? pupils Yes you could do but the point is the, it's where a person injects, a drug addict always injects into a vein so therefore they get these pin marks over veins, not necessarily, the veins go between fingers and toes and wherever, but they go into a vein where the diabetic goes into the muscle, into the arms, round the stomach area or the thigh. Now if you know that somebody is a drug addict and they've just had an injection you keep away from them, erm if they're having a bad trip, whatever they call it, because you don't, they become very violent, they can do a lot of damage, now the only time you will step in and help is when they go unconscious, but at the same time remember protect yourself, we're talking about needles here and probably shared needles, you must be terribly careful that you do not get pricked by a needle, especially if, they have a habit of sticking needles under lapels, so always be aware of this, if a person is a drug addict, in fact if you can find some easier way of turning them into the recovery position, do so, erm, you can then obviously either call the ambulance. Now the diabetic, I'll leave that for a moment because I'll do that in a moment, erm the absorption, usually gardeners, agricultural people that have, dealing with ordinary insecticides, pesticides, herbicides and all the other -cides that er, are about today, they're usually protected, but sometimes either you get somebody in a garden with and using all these things and they, they don't read packets do they any more? They think ah look there's a bit of drop of water in, there's a packet of something let's stick it in and stir it up, they never read a packet to see what it could do. Now if somebody has got a load of chemical open and it is being absorbed, you must protect yourself first, if they are still conscious well then they will take off their own clothing, you do not unless you have got protective clothing on. Once they've, you've got their clothing off they can probably stand in a shower, but remember to take their boots off or whatever or shoes of because if you don't they're going to stand in a, in a dilute solution of whatever it is that's being absorbed by the skin. Anybody working with chemicals should know, they are very silly to work with a chemical that they don't know what it could do, the first aid treatment, in fact, erm, anybody here work with chemicals? So you all know the correction regulations yes? And you know it from cover to cover? No Well I think you should because erm, remember it's up to you you should know. Now if you're going to put somebody under a shower as I say be care be very careful that you're not splashed and get the ambulance on the way. Some of these chemicals don't mix with water and this is why I did mention COSHH because they are working in er conditions and with chemicals that probably don't mix with water, but you should know what the buffer is, yeah? Yeah you spoke to, you, you should be carrying the antidote anyway Yes, erm no I won't spend any more time on that because we'll probably come back to that anyway. But, now let me get onto diabetes, the other, the other illness what injects now diabetics are very, very clean, they know exactly where they're going to inject, in fact they alternate, because if they keep to one spot then it's, gets a bit sore. Now with diabetes there's two types, too much sugar and too little sugar now diabetes erm, Irene said to you, erm is controlled by the insulin in the pancreas in the stomach, it throws out this insulin the liver throws out the sugar and I'm not going into actual detail, but if there is too little insulin then it is allowing the liver to send out too much glucose, so if, if the person has got this erm pancreas that isn't churning out insulin or too little then your person will have sugar diabetes. Now the one we are going to talk about first of all is the too little sugar where your person has been stabilized and they're taking insulin injections. Now hypoglycaemia, hypo meaning too little, glycaemia sugar. This one comes on very quickly and this is the one you are likely to have to deal with. Now say your diabetic has stabilized as they have done for, a couple of years or so with their insulin injection in the morning and their breakfast and that's how they carry on then till their tea break or lunch time they know exactly how much they're taking. Now they've come out the front door and the bus is running er coming down the road so they're running for that bus, so they're using up their energy, the insulin level's there, but the energy level is going down. They get to work, it started off one of these days didn't it so the lift's out of order and they work on the top floor, so they've now got to run up all those stairs, the energy is being used up. Now gradually the energy level is so low that the in although the insulin level is there, there's no sugar for it to work with, so now your casualty will start showing signs of too little sugar. First of all they'll go very pale and they'll start sweating and the pulse will be very rapid and the breathing will be shallow, now what are they going into? Shock Shock, but after a while their limbs'll start trembling and they become very confused, now a person, a perfectly nice person, oh, you know, always very helpful and kind can suddenly become aggressive and they really do become aggressive and, if they go to violence their strength, oh where they get it from god only knows, but they could literally throw a person across the room. Now if you see somebody going into this state, you must give them sugar, it's no good waiting till they've fainted or become unconscious because you can't give them anything then, can you? No You can't give anything by mouth to an unconscious casualty because they'll, you'll choke them, they can't swallow. Do you have safety first, they'll be able to throw you across the room? Pardon? They'll throw you across the room Oh yes you'll probably have to get somebody else as well, mm. Now if you've had, if you know you're a diabetic and see this happening in the, in the get this, getting this, the size the shock, go up to them and say you know, have you had your right amount or have you taken some sugar and very often they'll pull up and ah yes I've overdone it. Now if you've got sugar on you when you're out give them sugar, four cubes of sugar and they're marvellous, they come round just like that and erm then they'll got off and stabilize themselves. As I say if they've gone unconscious then, or fainted, you've got to call an ambulance. See a chap at work he's sort of day dream, you'll be talking to him and he's miles away Yeah Yeah Was that one of his signs of Yeah yes, but you knew Yeah, but you had to sort of force him to go and take some Yeah, oh you will yes, yes cos he wasn't interested in taking any no, no , but once he's taken it and then he's come round and erm he realizes what it's, what he's done, yeah. So once a person becomes unconscious, remember they've got to go to hospital because they can only get worse, right, there isn't any, enough sugar in that body to, to be able to work properly so they'll only get worse. They must go to hospital. Now the other side, the hyperglycaemia that is too much sugar, now whatever one it is, if you don't know the difference, the treatment is the same, you will give sugar even though this person has got too much, but this one comes on very slowly and quite honestly the person should realize themselves it's so slow. Their skin will be very flushed and dry you'll get deep sighing and this is the one you'll get the smell of acetone, not always, you know the nail varnish smell, the pear drops, and then from there they'll get, they'll go into gradual I've put coma there, but gradual unconsciousness treatment the same sugar, if it's sugar they want they'll come round almost immediately, if it's, they've already got too much well you have, that little bit's not going to make them any worse, they've got to go to hospital anyway. If a diabetic is unconscious urgently to hospital okay, now that diabetes by the way comes under the A of our coma here, which is an illness, okay? Any other and I put diabetes in there asthma is an illness which erm you may come across, it's the clogging up, it's something irri irritates the tubes, the windpipe and the bronchial tube and the person cannot draw air in, well they can draw it in but they can't get it out and they're, and they're trying very hard and the noise, has anybody heard anybody with an asthma attack? Yeah You can hear them from a long way now what you do is you sit them down and let them take up their own particular position, you can, if they've got their medication their Ventilin or whatever, you can put it beside them, they will know if they need to take it or not, get them with the fresh air and let them take up their own position which is usually leaning forward so that it expands their lungs, talk to them about something different because sometimes well they've got to think of what to answer you, it's relaxing those tubes, now if they're taking their medication and it doesn't work within about five minutes get them to hospital, because the only people that really die with asthma are those that have taken medication and keep saying I'll give it a few more minutes, give it a few more minutes and if they're getting worse and worse they're leaving it too long. So all, as I say erm, never used to be able to die with asthma there was but very few, but now it seems to be more common because people are not going for help when they need it. Right, I think we've been going on long enough and I think you've been sitting there long enough, ha twenty two miles, a thousand and six rising slowly, Ronald's Way, west seven, sixteen miles nine nine three, rising quickly. Mallin Head, North West by West eight, recently hale, eleven miles, nine nine three, rising very rapidly. That's the end of the shipping forecast but just to remind you that Radio Four long wave in Northern Scotland, Orkney and Shetland is off the air as the bulkhead transmitter has been affected by the bad weather but as soon as it's repaired we will repeat the shipping forecast for the areas affected that'll be on long wave only and F M will continue with scheduled programmes. Now just after two, Gardeners' Question Time introduced by Doctor Stefan . Hello, well this week it's the turn of those listeners who've sent in their queries by post and we'll try and help as many of you as we can. Our team is Daphne from Spalding, Fred from Lancaster and Walter from East Kilbride and our first card this week is er,goes back into our own experiences because it's from Gill of West Yorkshire. Some of you may remember her because we stayed at her hotel er a little while ago and she has a lovely horse chestnut tree er outside her hotel and since we went it stopped producing conkers . She says has it turned gay or homosexual, has it changed sex, is it the micro-climate or did one of us fix it? Just to remind us the tree is five hundred feet above sea level. It's always the first tree to leaf and it's also the first one to shed its leaves in the area and all the neighbouring horse chestnut trees, which presumably we didn't tamper with have stayed prolific. Fred did you knob all the conkers? No I didn't Stefan, we've been blamed for some things in our time, haven't we but nothing like this I don't think. If I remember rightly this erm hotel is on a hill, isn't it? Certainly, five hundred feet up, yes. But it's on a hill in the, in the, in the , it's a long way down from there to walk and, and if I remember rightly it was on the outside of the hotel, on a bank and that to me means that erm if we had had some weather, which we had at that time, then the roots could have suffered but the other clue I think is that erm it comes into leaf first and it drops its leaves first in the autumn so maybe it's a different tree than the other, different variety, because there are several horse chestnuts aren't there? Yes, there's the normal horse chestnut which is aesculus hippocastanum that's Yes. the one with the big on but then there's pavia isn't there Yes. which is the red flowered one And some of these are a bit tender, more tender than the others aren't they as well? But they don't actually produce as many conkers. So I'm just wondering whether this is a different variety and because it was two years ago, I three years ago now I think. That year I can remember was a good year wasn't it? We had a good spring and we had a good set in year. We got a cold gust of er icy winds when that I think was out in blossom then there wouldn't be many conkers. Well, no, there wouldn't but what's so odd is that the other horse chestnut trees in the area seem alright. Walter, I know you weren't there Walter so we can't blame you for whatever's happened but have you got a theory about it? Well er you know it seems such a mystery er to me, conker not shy. There are all sorts of situations that can occur, I've heard of electrical er and soil impulses that er cause shock and well might put it out to flower. Again er even frosting blast when even other trees er specific trees are erm alright, it may have been caught in that draught and set it back a little, you never know. No, it's er d Gill er goes on actually to ask, she says do d do these trees have to cross pollinate? Well they don't in fact Gill , in fact horse chestnuts are rather interesting, that technically what's called andromonetius which means they have male flowers and hermaphrodite flowers on the same, so it's hedging its bets all ways round. Er yeah it is Stefan but because you know it's the first one to come into leaf and the first one to shed, then possibly it will flower at a different time as well I would think and that may be the clue. Yes perhaps you're right Fred. Well we don't have a definite answer erm Gill but we think it may have experienced a shock of some sort during that season and of course when this happens to fruit trees they can go into bi-annual cropping and then they come back again, it may be that this horse chestnut's experienced something very similar. I think the answer is we must come and stay with you again and then we can And the other thing of course Stefan is it lives in Yorkshire. Well I that lives in Ilkley. On Ilkley Moor bar conkers. Anyway, we'll tr we'll come back and see your tree again Gill . Thank you for the question. We go to London now and to, to erm, sorry I'm j see what sex this honest we don't know what sex it's from M , could be Mr Mrs Ms. M of London has been told that their plum tomatoes have got T M V. Fred will tell you in a moment what T M V is but the symptoms are the plants have brown blotches on the stems, fallen leaves all round where th where the plants are growing erm and he's done all he can to get rid of it. He's got rid of the old plants, he's, but he's kept the seeds, this is interesting, he's kept the seeds from apparently unaffected plants. The fruit itself seem to be alright and the bottom line of the question, is it safe to replant the seeds from this plant next season? So it's your question, Fred. First of all, what is T M V? Well it's tomato mosaic virus int it, erm but what really is significant about it is that the leaves are mottled with yellow and it quite often go fern like, they go very very thin. Er and this erm virus actually will er stay in the seed, it will stay in the soil, it will stay in the soil for years and plant other varieties, or other er plants in there. So I think I would do away with my plum tomatoes for a start with something else. We all think it's going to stay there for a long time and, and there are varieties now, bred specially to be immune from er T M V and er, we use things like Counter or Curabell, or one of my favourites of course Shirley. Yes, yeah it is one of the most infectious of all plant viruses Yeah. er it spreads as you say by contact and in the seed, this is the point, so I wouldn't save seeds from any plants that have been anywhere near No because even the ones that aren't showing the symptoms, they could have the virus in it, cos it just may not have come out. Yes. So I wouldn't save it at all I would do away with the lot. Yeah, just as a, as a side issue, I am interested that they've been growing plum tomatoes because each year I hear of more and more people growing plum tomatoes successfully in this country and while we are just on the subject of diseases and things to control them, you may remember that a few weeks ago we were giving advice on how we should dispose of waste garden chemicals and, and we said you ought to pour it down an outside drain. Well, apparently that used to be the official advice er and, and we were correct in that but the authorities have now changed their minds and they no longer want us to pour waste chemical down the drains and I gather that the official advice now is that surplus diluted chemical should be poured, and I'm quoting here,on to more or less level and bare soil in the garden or on to level gravelled paths, avoid disposal in areas around ponds, erm water courses and so forth, dishes and, and what have you and as far as undiluted chemicals are concerned, that's stuff still in the bottle, the advice there is to talk to your local authority cos they have different regulations in different areas. If anyone wants chapter and verse on this the erm address of the British Agro-chemicals Association who put out this literature will be on our fact sheet. Right we move on to er the West Country now and Owen of Wareham in Dorset. Er now Owen has a large summer house and collects rain water from the roof and the roof's been covered recently with a good quality, he says, mineralized felt. Now remember some years ago, and I remember this, that we said that it would inadvisable to collect rain water off a new felt roof. What he wants to know Daphne is, for how long should he wait? Well theoretically I would wait as long as it took to wash the mess off the roof. Now of course it would depend very much on and whether you were in a drought situation as we were until last year or whether it's like we've been over this last summer and early winter which is that virtually not a day has passed without we've had some rain, in which case obviously the roof is going to get cleaned up very much quicker but I have to say that although I've always been under the impression that it's not a good idea to save water off a new felt roof er because of deposits that come off the mineral felt. I have actually used water that's come off it and I've also had er sheds with plants growing underneath and I can't honestly remember, I mean I have obviously not used it on really sensitive plants like tomatoes which I think would show signs of stress. Now I've used it elsewhere in the garden and I've never really had any problem with it except it is inclined to make the water very alkaline because the chippings that are quite often used on a flat roof and they've got a very high P H and therefore you've got to be aware that the water that comes off is not likely to be soft it's more likely to be fair fairly hard but for reasonably tough plants I don't think I would waste it, especially in times of water shortage. Well Walter, have you experienced this as a problem? Well up in Scotland of course we don't need to save our rain water we get plenty of it coming from the unclear , but er one thing I would say would be that erm if we have a warm spell and the sun is beating on a bitumen roof and then of course suddenly a shower and that er goes into the water bucket or water barrel then it does give you maybe you know a few problems. I remember having a problem like that where we were erm we had a, a load of erm we were watering that material it was warmed, we thought of course would be alright but they did er, they were quite sensitive to it and they looked quite miserable. Yes Fred do you, would you, how long would you wait to collect the ? Well I think I would wait Stefan until the oily film had gone off the top of the water for tender plants but then I am one of these people that would always tender plants with tap water anyway because you never know what's in do you in rain water, anything can congregate in a pot, it can be infected with all sorts of things and I would just use this water on the garden in the first twelve months or so or use it on shrubs and things like that if it was required and then go on to er things like perennials but then you could use it on almost anything but with the proviso that you may have contamination in that water if it's from Water Board. But let's just remind people that, yes, water should be saved, water should be conserved. You may not need to do it in Scotland as well to the in England. Many areas, yes, let's everybody have water butts and use them to, to save the rain water during next summer, next summer being when it's going to rain. We go to Berkhamsted in Hertfordshire now and Mrs Jennifer 's written to us er with a puzzle because she's found what she thought was an interesting plant growing amongst a raspberry bush in her garden. Her mother identified it as a wayfaring tree and she'd been cutting it back during the summer and it didn't seem to mind but she'd be very grateful for any information about the wayfaring tree which presumably she'd like to keep and continue to grow in her garden. Walter, what, what is a wayfaring tree? Well Jennifer I think it's er viburnum lanterna and it's quite an interesting er bush because it was in the sixteenth century a er gave the tree its poetic name as he frequently come across it in old drove roads er over and across the old drove roads in the chalk downs of er from Winchester to Epsom and London but sorry about this it can grow to fifteen feet and in May it opens up its cluster of white flowers and it's really quite an attractive thing but the berries I don't think are so attractive so I think erm Des describe them why in what way they're not attractive one. Well they, they grow from this er green to white to red and then finally black, don't like black berries Stefan so that would be a no no as far as I was concerned in my garden . Oh alright well it's a no no for Walter's garden. Daphne, is it a yes yes for your garden? Well it's not a yes yes for the garden because I wouldn't have room for it but it's certainly a yes yes in my shelter delt because the birds love the berries and it really encourages them to use that shelter delt but it isn't as, as easy to grow, it's, one tends to think of the nature plant as a tough plant but I've been trying to establish about thirty of these in the shelter delt and I've found they object to any form of total weedkiller round the root, so all the, the weedkillers that you would use for the first couple of years maybe to, to keep the, the weeds from growing round the stems, they tend to get chlorotic and die. They also don't like wind rock so in a, an exposed position young plants do really need more staking than you'd probably give a bush because they tend to rot off at the roots if they grow around a lot. I, I think it's quite a, an interestingly pretty plant in the right sort of situation but it is a wild plant, it is a native plant and it gets big. I am intrigued if it doesn't like wind rock, how it manages to survive on the drove roads over the downs that where Gerard . Well I think, I think that the difference is that if you're, they were obviously establishing themselves from seed and they picked the right spot and they got themselves anchored. If you're buying them as young plants which are probably a foot fifteen inches high then it takes them a couple of years to get the roots established. When they get big there's no problem at all, it's just that couple of years getting them settled down. Yeah, you, yes. Fred you presumably know this plant. Yeah I do Stefan, I mean i it's very vigorous int it, when it gets established and it grows very upright as well and of course it's deciduous erm some people call it a shrub, some people call it a tree but I, I will think that er Mrs is doing the right thing by cutting it back, especially if it's a small garden, it would make a better bush in the garden I think if she does that and the these little white flowers really in are nice aren't they? I would grow it, yeah. Mm. I think ideally what we're saying er Mrs is that it's er, it's an interesting plant and being a native plant of course there'll be wild life that feeds on it which is to the good but it's probably a plant for a, a larger wilder garden really. Yeah, didn't it used to called twistwood Stefan or something? If I remember rightly. You could be right Fred I don't, I've not heard that one. Whe where it came from I don't know but Twistwood? Yeah. Oh well if anybody knows perhaps they'll write and tell us, is, is twistwood another name for the wayfaring tree? Anyway a plant, we think, for bigger gardens but if you can get away with growing it in a small space where cutting it back by all means do because it is quite a pretty thing. Next card is from Birmingham, Sally in Birmingham and R S has written to us and, oh this looks right up your street Fred. Would the team please comment on the effect of water supply and type of soil on the cooking properties of potatoes er Mr finds that all the maincrop varieties that he grows seem to boil into the water but the same variety grown commercially it says, doesn't. That's interesting, only the very waxy first early potatoes seem immune from this problem. Well this is something that comes up time and again Fred. We recommend varieties and people write to us and say that's no good it disappears into the water and stays hard. Now I know you probably grown every variety of potato known to man and cooked most of them, so let's have some information from you. Well I'm sure that soil does have some effect on potatoes Stefan, I mean if you get erm potatoes from down Lincolnshire, somewhere like that where it's er quite hard soil then, then you'll find that they will stay longer in the water before they boil away. I if you get them off some of the mosses up our way, then they boil away far quicker but the other thing I think is mainly variety. Now things like erm, well one of my old favourites Arran Pilot i if you dig it out when it's young, then of course it stays as it should, cos it's a very very waxy potato but, but I can remember growing varieties like Majestic and things like that and I mean they would never fall, they would never fall in the water but they make good chips er of the modern varieties I think I'd go for er Kondor with a K er which is a very very good potato and does stay as it is i in the ground but one other thing I think also comes into it. Maybe these potatoes have been lifted too early. Now if you think about commercial potatoes and the ones that keep, the late ones, they are always harvested after the have died down, a long time after, in fact some of them are still digging up potatoes now. So the skins of those potatoes are very very ripe and so is the flesh. A lot of people in the garden are digging them round about August September time really which is too early to keep potatoes and then the flesh is far softer. Yes, I've got to come back to you in a minute Fred and I'll just give you time to think about this. I'd like your recommendations for the best boiling, baking, roasting, chipping potatoes, three or four for different purposes but I'm going to ask Walter to comment on the question first of all? Yes, well up here in Scotland er where I live erm the maincrop variety Golden Wonder tends to certainly need a par boiling and a par boiling only er when cooking so it needs about what five to six minutes or something like that but erm any more and the tatties go to mash and er that's why I think a lot of the Golden Wonders er in Scotland are cooked in their skins but erm if I was to go for a variety that er I enjoy would be one called Pentland Ivory, it's a, a nice flowery spud er and you get quite a plentiful supply of them too so it's quite a good variety but you know the old Kerr's Pink used to be called I think Henry's Seedling, I remember rightly and then it changed its name to Kerr's Pink because Kerr was a seedsman up in who really introduced it and er that was just after the first world war and that's a good one, that's a very good one and it's got that waxy skin as well you see so it might be quite useful. Right, Daphne, Lincolnshire where you come from that's potato country. Well it certainly is but er I've grown potatoes myself for years and never had any trouble with them boiling into the water but this year I cannot get a good potato, all of my usual favourites like Estima which I've found is a usually good all round potato, it it's a monkey for boiling into the water and one thing I can only assume is that the weather's had a lot to do with it, my ground's been waterlogged most of the season. I lifted them early because I didn't want to leave them any longer because they were going to get damaged and they were, they were a wet potato when they came up and they've cooked wet, so I think that the amount of rainfall you have has a lot to do with it. The other thing that I wonder might have some bearing is that I know parts of Sally Park and Sally Oak and they're very acid, they can grow rhododendrons and azaleas and things very well. Yes that's I'm wondering if, if it's too acid for a good crop of potatoes without liming. Yes it certainly is, I, as you say the streets round Sally Oak are lined with erm gardens with rhododendrons in aren't they? I must say I've only grown two maincrop this year, I've been clearing some new ground and I've just grown King Edward and Pink Fir Apple, I've got the biggest biggest Pink Fir Apples you have ever seen bar none but I'm coming back to you now Fred, I put to you a few minutes ago, your personal recommendations for the best three or four or five potatoes for the different cooking purposes. Well I think as an early potato Stefan, I would chose from Rocket for the earliest, I would grow I think for as well as that I would go for Foremost but if you want a real waxy potato it would still be Arran Pilot cos now whenever you eat it it got a strong taste, whether it's young or whether it's old. As a late potato, as a keeping potato I always grow Wilger Now I grow Wilger because it, it browns well when it's roasted. It makes good chips or if it's dry fried. We, very seldom that we have boiled potatoes but if I wanted a potato I think to cover all the needs to keep, I would go for Desiree because that one will fit almost any bill at all, it'll do everything, it's the best all round potato, late potato that I have ever grown and eaten. Okay thank you very much indeed Fred. We move to Croydon in Surrey now, Mrs E has written to us from Croydon, Elizabeth . She says her neighbour's garden, always is a mystery here, her neighbour's garden has been attacked by some kind of animal, she thinks nocturnal, there are small areas dug up from the garden, they are about three to four inches in diameter and about the same in depth, so it's, it's, it's a little hole rather than the end of a tunnel it seems. Small clods of soil are thrown on the surface and also small quantities of animal excreta around the holes. She's obviously examined the animal excreta very closely because she says it's black and it appears to contain berries. What is it and how can it be stopped? That's the digging the holes not the excreta, I imagine. Walter, what do you think? I never thought er Mrs that I'd be seeing, I'd like to see the excreta first but er could it be, could it be a dormouse because they enjoy the insects and berries and they make similar type holes. Now in Victorian times they were kept as pets and just like hamsters are today and there are still one or two around that er might just give you that impression but I may be really off the, the level here. Well I don't know, we had, not so long ago we had National Dormouse Week didn't we further in the autumn erm what do you think Fred, dormice? I think, oh I think the holes are a bit big aren't they for a dormouse? I don't think I've ever seen a dormouse I must be honest Well it's like a square hole isn't it? Three or four inches across. Seems like they could be big. I, I just wonder whether it's voles. Voles? Yeah, erm, yeah. I think I would come down on voles really and they do actually dig a hole like that they go for erm small boulders and things like that in the garden or roots and they will send out clods as well cos they can uproot quite, quite a fair piece of er soil and of course they would eat berries as well, but again I'm with Walter, I would like to see the end product. I think you've probably let us in for it now Frank cos she's almost certainly going to send us some. Daphne do you think it's a vole? It could be, or I'm just wondering if it's actually squirrels, because although the, the excreta contains berries erm a squirrel will eat berries, it will also eat nuts and of course they do bury their nuts and I've actually seen squirrels in other parts of the country digging holes and starting a bit of a larder and of course there are a lot of, of erm squirrels in Croydon so I think unless you actually see the animal you can only speculate that it is something small like a vole or, or a squirrel. Alright, well let's suppose it's some something small like a vole or a squirrel. The end bottom line to all this is ho can it be stopped? Not if it's a squirrel. I have never found anything yet that will stop a squirrel doing precisely what it wants to do when it wants to do it, whatever that is what it wants to do. And there we rest our case. Fred could you do anything about it? not with squirrels, no er I don't think so but I mean you, you might be able to do something with a vole, or something like that and trap them but I'm just wondering Stefan could it also be a fox? A fox! Yeah now I, I have seen foxes and I mean they are they are now in built up areas aren't they? Do they ea do they eat berries? Well they don't have s yes they'd eat anything but a fox Yeah yeah. doesn't have small black excreta, Fred, fox droppings are like I was going to say like nobody's business . Like an Alsatian's. Well they are. Well it depends what, you know, what people call small doesn't it? I mean to compare with an elephant dropping, it's small. Yeah, hang on, just a minute, let's keep, let's keep this thing within bounds of credibility will you, this is Croydon not the Engoran gorn craza Let's get to the to Mrs 's problem. We think it might be voles, we think it could be squirrels, we don't seriously think it's anything bigger but I'm afraid we don't think there's anything you can do about it but if you want further investigation then if you send these objects to Fred care of the programme, he will give you a personal diagnosis. And very swiftly from that I'm going to I'm going to move to your part of the world Fred, I'm going to go to Preston in Lancashire. Erm Mrs Lynne who's got a well established peach tree which is in an old greenhouse, I should think that's the best place for it in Lancashire in, in the shelter of a greenhouse. It produces a good number of peaches every August but the greenhouse is in desperate need of replacement and she doesn't have to, want to have to put another one in that position so is there anything cheap, she says, that she could do to help the tree to survive and fruit in a large open garden in Preston in Lancashire without the greenhouse, Walter? Well I wonder Lynne if it would look odd because you know the position of the greenhouse just now I mean is it a lean-to, or is it sitting out there in the lawn, where is it? And would it look odd if you had a tent or wigwam type of frame that could be covered in with a protective polythene and well ven ventilated at the, at the base and as it's only really to give protection, you know, January, late April sort of thing, round about that period, er to prevent the fungal peach leaf curl and fungal spores being splashed on the branches wherein. It really is quite difficult, you know, trying to visualize what the thing would like but er I think it'd look pretty awful actually. L l Well it may, it may stand out like a sore thumb, yeah. L l let me ask Fred, it's your county Fred. Is the main need for this greenhouse for protection against the weather or simply against peach leaf curl? Well both I think Stefan, especially when the flowers are out because erm in our area, I mean peaches flower early and that time of the year are quite susceptible to frost. I mean Preston is about twenty miles south of er where we are but I know that there are gardens north of where we are that do grow good peaches but what they do they cover the er plants during the early spring round about February time and they cover it with very fine ne net, that's all they need to do with it just cover it up when the flowers are out, make sure that they lift it off every now and again to do the pollinating, get them set and then when the frosts have gone take the net off. And if they use green netting, I mean it won't be a nuisance, it won't look er very disfiguring will it? And it will work. Is that what you do Daphne? Well the problem as I see it is that you don't know what the variety of this peach is, if it was bought out of greenhouse variety and is reasonably tender then I don't think whatever you do with it in Preston it's going to make any difference. If it was, for instance, Peregrine, which south of Pes Preston, certainly in my area, will grow quite well on a wall outside, then I think you'll get away with netting but I think without knowing whether it's an indoor peach or an outdoor peach, you're on a bit of a loser. Yes, that's a good point. Well the advice Mrs then is if you know what variety it is and you know it's a variety tough enough to grow outdoors like er Peregrine, then send protection at the susceptible time of the year when the blossom's out, otherwise er if it is a tend a more tender variety we don't think er the thing is going to survive and certainly not going to fruit. And we go finally to Rosemary of Cambridge and she would like to plant two nice shrub rose bushes. I'm delighted to hear it cos there is no lovelier plant in the garden. I'm going to ask each one of you for two suggestions. Bearing in mind that Rosemary says she does not like red and scent is the most important thing. So Fred first of all two recommendations from you please. You're drooling aren't you Stefan? Oh I am, I am, yes you can see it. Well we don't know how big this garden is, do we? Yes, she does say looking at her card again Fred, she says, a small garden. Ah, then we don't want some big ones, do we, cos some of the shrub roses do get quite er quite tall and quite wide as well. So I would give her Penelope, she's one of the moss, er it's pink, it's er repeat flowering, it flowers all season which some of the others don't and a yellow one Graham Thomas I think would be my other choice. Again it's only about four foot high and about four foot wide and a beautiful flower, a beautiful old fashioned type flower and a new, new variety of er of shrub rose and of course again it's repeat flowering so they go on right through the season and both of them their fragrance is beautiful. Good choice, Penelope and Graham Thomas from Fred. Daphne? Well Fred's got my Graham Thomas because it really is a superb rose but as well as that I would go for hybrid musk and I think of all the hybrid musk, my favourite is Felicia because of that silvery pink, lovely double shaped flower and that is very very heavily scented and I would have to have the bourbon rose the th the double white creamy white bourbon rose, if, you could almost eat that, that won't get more than about six foot and you can prune it to keep it in shape a bit if it begins to get too straggly. Yes I think it's perhaps worth making the point erm to Rosemary that although, as you say,i it's six feet high, that it doesn't spread all that wide and it's, it's a mistake in a small garden to think that you can't have things that are on the tall side. What you think, what you don't want is things that spread very widely. Erm Walter what about you for two shrub roses? Well my favourite shrub is, er must be the Charles Austin which is a rather nice one, it's a cream well scented modern English shrub rose and it grows to about , well up here anyway in Scotland where I am it grows something like erm four to six feet and another one well, erm Aloha, it's a delicious scented pink and a strong growing rose er fairly upright but erm quite a good one and again it grows to be about five to six feet with us. Because these are your favourite roses Stefan what about your choice? Yeah, what about you Stefan? Oh I thought you'd never ask. Yes, I, I'd give you two, one is my favourite of all shrub roses which is Fantan la tour which has what one can only describe as loosened sort of shaggy shell pink flowers with the most exquisite perfume, it's a, it's an untidy flower like the old shrub roses really should be the best of them erm and a very pale shell pink, a wonderful variety, not particularly repeat flowering, relatively short flowering season but so wonderful when it is in flower and the other one, er she says she doesn't like red, now isn't really red, it's a very very deep reddish purple and it's a variety called Tuscany Superb and I grow Tuscany Superb in my garden alongside er some fennel, a foliage fennel plant and the feathery fennel together with, almost the aniseed aroma of the fennel together with these deep deep purple flowers of Tuscany Superb is absolutely wonderful, it's actually on the edge of my herb garden. And you can use it in pot pourri as well can't you Stefan? You can indeed Daphne, so there you are Rosemary do plant some shrub roses and even if you haven't got room for all of our suggestions I hope you'll find room for two or three of them. And that must be our last question for today so can I ask the team for some topical tips Walter? Well this week has the shortest day before the end of the year so light is at the premium and erm I would wash the glass quite often now of the glasshouse and greenhouse because er especially the outside to remove any of that winter grime that's collected and let some light into those plants. We shall certainly do that and Fred? I'm gonna lift a few mint roots Stefan and er plant them in a box of compost and put them in the warm greenhouse so they give me nice sprigs of fresh mint in a few months' time. Thank you Fred and Daphne? Well the flowering house plants, we hope you're going to be given for Christmas, things like cyclamen and indoor azaleas and also your indoor bowls of course will last much longer if you give them the coolest, lightest position you can. Warm central heating is bad news for indoor plants. Good news for us but bad for them and that'll have to be all for today, we've been answering some of the queries that have reached us by post. Next week we shall be in Scotland with the Helensborough and Gerloch Horticultural Society so I hope we can cultivate your interest again then but for now from Daphne , Fred Walter and from me Stefan goodbye and may I wish a joyous and peaceful Christmas to all of our gardening friends everywhere. Gardeners' Question Time is produced at Manchester by Amanda if you'd like a fact sheet on the programme, please send us a stamped addressed envelope, marked fifty one stroke ninety three to Gardeners' Question Time B B C, P O Box twenty nine, Manchester M twelve six A D. This is Radio Four. going to be lecturing you erm about foreign policy and foreign policy making. Erm there'll be seven lectures on this subject and that's a fair number of course but it's not enough to cover the full range of things that I'd want normally to talk to you about and so what I'm going to do is to aim to introduce you to some of the central concepts of foreign policy, of ways of analysing it, of the models that are used, the ideas erm er surrounding foreign policy and also to illustrate these with examples. Now to do that effectively I think it's essential that I get you to participate in what's happening so from time to time I'm going to ask you to answer questions, sometimes by writing them down, sometimes by shows of hands erm sometimes by er reacting back erm to the questions that I ask. So I won't start that immediately but during the lecture we'll start to build that up. The other thing I ask of you is to do some initial reading around the lectures. The book I've chosen is this one, Understanding Foreign Policy by Michael Clarke and Brian White who are editors, so if you could note that book down please, Understanding Foreign Policy, it is on your list, Understanding Foreign Policy by Michael Clarke and Brian White. They are the editors, they're not the sole authors so each chapter has a different author erm and like all books some are stronger than others but what I would like you to do for the next, by the time we meet next time, that's on Monday the next lecture, please have read chapters one and two of that book. It is available of course in the library but also you can buy copies, it's a, I think it's a reasonable price, in the S P C K bookshop. Well I'm going to start today by a number of questions, general questions about foreign policy. Can you read that? I'll dim er if I can find a dimmer I'll dim the You can read it now can't you? Well the first question is, is foreign policy different from other areas of policy making? Well you ca er as with most academic questions, you can see it both ways. The answer is partly yes and partly no. Now let's try the no part first. It includes bureaucratic processes, there are ministries of foreign affairs, there is the foreigner and commonwealth office in Britain, there is interaction between officials in policy making in building it up together so there is a bureaucratic process involved in erm foreign policy. Before the meeting, you know at the moment John Major is in Moscow, erm before that meeting there'll have been much work done by the officials on briefing papers, on trying to identify the potential issues that are going to come up in the meeting, there'll have been a lot of background work that would be similar er to patterns of relationships between various departments erm in any process of decision making. Equally the attitudes and decisions of foreign policy will be influenced by the ideology of the people who make the policy and also their perception of the world. Let me carry on with this same erm position of John Major erm meeting the Russian president. Both of course come from very different cultures and very different backgrounds. They are also are in different political situations. I mean there was, there was a wonderful Times cartoon, I don't know if you saw it, of Yeltsin showing all the troubles he, he couldn't control his government, there were economic problems, people were being nasty to him apparently as he was saying how do we manage and it turns out of course at the end, the final kick line is he's talking about John Major's situation. Erm so there are some similarities but plainly there are clear differences between them and that influences, influences very much erm what they're trying to achieve. A particular case of course is in relation to Bosnia Hercegovina, erm Russia has traditionally been close to the Serbs erm and therefore is worried, not only about the situation within erm the old Yugoslavia itself, Bosnia Hercegovina, but also about the reaction erm within Russia if it is seen to take too anti a Serb line erm in the, in the crisis that's being faced there. So there are answers that no it's not that different in some ways from other fore er from other policy making but there is another side of foreign policy in which you say yes, there are clear differences. One of the differences is that foreign policy is made in an international environment in which the government cannot claim sovereignty. Sovereignty is the, we'll turn to it later, we'll look at sovereignty again, but linked to sovereignty is the idea that you can make legislation, you can pass laws and then you can say these laws are going to be carried out, implemented by courts followed by sanctions though very little law is related to foreign policy because the British government or the Russian government or the United States government can't make laws which apply worldwide or outside its own area of claimed sovereignty so there is a difference of the environment in which foreign policy takes place. Secondly there tends to be a coming together within the erm the parties of any one country in its foreign policy attitudes. There's a saying which isn't entirely true that the politics stops at the waters' edge. What that means is that when you're facing up to foreign situations, you tend to pull together you tend not to divide you tend not to emphasise the differences between you. Now that doesn't frankly entirely work but on the whole there is a tendency to push differences less strongly in foreign affairs than in domestic affairs. Now having said the answer is both yes and no, of course part of the reason for the yes and the no is there is a very large overlap between domestic policy and foreign policy. Erm the two interact constantly and you can see foreign policy in some ways as a bridge between what goes on within the frame, the domestic framework of a country and what goes on in the international environment which surrounds it. Now let me try a first question on you. Why did President Clinton agree for erm Terry Adams? What's his first name, the erm ? Jeremy. Jerem Jeremy is it? Gerry. Gerry Adams, that's right I've go Gerry Adams, why did Professor Clinton agree for Gerry Adams to visit erm the United States? Anybody call out yes, it's a question I'm asking you. Anybody have a go at it. Yes please. platform to do that. He thought he was, sorry? take the opportunity of his trip to America to renounce violence Downing Street peace plan. Yes that's absolutely right about Gerry Adams. I'm trying to think of President Clinton, why did President Clinton agree to give him a visa? Yes? Was it to keep the Irish population happy? Which Irish population? In America. In America. The I would think that's one of the factors, I er it's a very good point that, to keep the Irish population of the United States happy. But I, I don't think it was the total picture but it was one of the reasons I think that persuaded President Clinton to invite Gerry Adams, or to lift the visa for forty eight hours. Now there's a very good example of the way in which a domestic concern has an impact in terms of international events because obviously it put a strain on Anglo-U S relations. I mean it may have pleased the Irish government a bit but it's got implications both domestically and internationally. I also think he probably thought that it might help to ease the tension erm in Northern Ireland, whether it did or not I leave as an open debate and I don't think there was just a single motive for President Clinton's decision, but the one I was trying to demonstrate which was hit straight away was there was a domestic element, a des domestic political element in the decision. And of course another very clear example of the overlap between domestic concerns and international concerns is Maastricht and the great debate that's gone on in Britain about whether or not we should have agreed to the Maastricht Treaty. Let me try erm a straw poll on you and I'm going to ask those of you, I'll give you a moment or two, who would've signed up the Maastricht Treaty and who would not have signed up the Maastricht Treaty if you'd've had a free vote? You're er for the moment you're not committed to a party, you've just got to take an individual decision and I know Maastricht is very complicated but there's a lot of gut feeling as well as precise knowledge about these things, so I want to take a vote. Who would have signed the Maastricht Treaty? Who would not have signed the Maastricht Treaty? Well I'd say it was about sixty five thirty five for the Maastricht Treaty. What I'll do is I'll try another straw poll at the end of the seven lectures and see how we feel then to see if we've erm we've shifted, so I think there it was about, I'm guessing, sixty five thirty five in favour of Maastricht. But another clear example of the way in which erm domestic and in erm foreign policy overlaps is of course in economic affairs. Erm for example if you hear,an and defence matters as well, if we hear for example that Saudi Arabia has decided to buy a series of British tanks, that is a foreign policy decision whether or not to allow those tanks erm to be sold to Saudi Arabia and we know from the Iraq arms business the way in which erm it is a de a conscious decision of government whether or not to do these things. But how is it reported in north eastern papers? Is it reported as saying Britain grows closer to Saudi Arabia? Not at all, the way it's reported in north eastern newspapers is more jobs for Vickers Armstrong erm in Newcastle because there the manufacture of tanks is very important indeed to the local prospects of the economy. So there are many examples in fact erm of the way in which economic affairs overlaps both domestic and foreign policy. Now let's turn to the next question. Is foreign policy making similar for all governments? Because if we can't generalize then I, perhaps I should be talking about British foreign policy or Iranian foreign policy or South African foreign policy are there generalizations we can make and say well it is similar for all governments? You won't be surprised to hear it's another yes, no answer. Yes there are similarities in the sense that all are operating in the international environment I mentioned before. You've no choice, you're part of the international environment and you operate in that and you can't control, as I've said before, er even if you're as powerful as the United States, you can't control that environment and you don't claim to control that environment in the same way that you claim to control your domestic environment. Also it is a common feature of course that you need to order the resources, that you have the resource in terms of people or the economy or the armed forces, you need to order those resources to try to achieve your ends erm and we'll look at that later, the aims that you're going for in foreign policy so they're common, that you're in the same environment, that you've got to m er whatever the resources you have you have to try to organize them to achieve your ends and so on. And another common feature is that each separate country, each state, claims sovereignty that is it claims a legal equality erm within the international order. Who would like to have a go at describing for us the General Assembly of the United Nations? What is the General Assembly of the United Nations? A blank so far? Come on, have a go even if it's wrong, you'll remember if you make a mistake later. Would you like to have a go ? Er is it each country has one That's right, that's very good. It's a No no it's, it's very good he actually had a go and the rest of you were sitting there dumbfounded by the question. The General Assembly is the er assembly of the unit the part of the United Nations in which each state has a representative whether you're Swaziland or whether you're Russia, whether you're Ukraine or whether you're Singapore, you have a representative in the General Assembly of the United Nations. What's the other very well known institution of the United Nations? Security Council. Security Council, who s I can't quite focus who very good, Security Council. Can you tell us about the s a bit about the Security Council? Yes it's erm made up of a small proportion of the countries in the General, General Assembly, about five countries and seats on it erm basically the allies from the second world war erm and the other seats are changed around periodically between the nation, other nations. Excellent. Excellent. The two major organs of the United Nations are a general assembly in which everybody sits and a security council, yes he's looking very pleased with himself erm in which you have a core of five permanent members and they are the victors of the second world war erm and then others who sit in in rotation to make up the total assembly but I think it's about eighteen members altogether? Maybe a bit less than that, I should know but I, I don't know the precise number, but a much smaller assem and frankly with much more effective power in the international community. And when you come to things like whether or not the U N is going to th er U N actions in Bosnia at the moment, it's the Security Council erm which is trying to take the decisions with the Secretary General of course in charge. So there are similarities between erm all governments but plainly, on the other side of the coin, there are differences. Think for yourself, is foreign policy making in Saddam Hussein's Iraq the same as that in Chancellor Kohl's Germany? I mean the answer is plainly there are very clear differences. The domestic situation in which things take place, they are really very different and you can start to draw up categories, of course, of countries, small big maybe, small medium big democratic non-democratic, er military dictatorships civilian government erm and so on , so there are whole series of categories of governments that you can draw up and you can say well these do make a difference in the way erm foreign policy is created. And of course, although they have a legal sovereignty as I've mentioned, and they each have a place on the General Assembly and the General Assembly of the United Nations, there are enormous differences between the resources which are available erm for different states and their capacity to act. You think of, I mean the obvious great power, the one superpower that's left now is the United States compare the United States with let's say Fiji enormous difference in terms of the range of interests it has, erm the things in which in there's hardly anything in the world takes place without some claim of the United States to have an interest in it. There are very few things take place in the world in which Fiji has a direct interest, it may have a general interest in the way things are going but it, direct interests it, it's quite limited. Its resources erm the contrasts are enormous between the economic and military and cultural and erm educational resources of the United States and that of Fiji so there are obviously, in foreign policy making, vast differences. And then you'll find even in er similar types of countries the structure in which foreign policy is made are different. Let me continue with the United States erm example in the United States it's a, it's a complex government situation, has Mr been speaking to you? Yes he'll have mentioned the United States on occasions I hope cos he teaches the United States, yeah, well as you know I mean there are a number of separate powers, there's the presidential erm there's the presidential power, in foreign policy making I'm talking about, there's president, there's the congress there's the Pentagon, there's the secretary of state for foreign affairs as well, and one of the characteristics of American policy is the way in which sometimes they can be ha be pursuing separate erm aims and using different methods. I have a particular interest in South Africa's erm foreign policy and one of the, from the past, one of the things that South African decision makers have said to me, our dilemma is we do not know what American policy is because if we listen to the Pentagon we get a different voice coming out than if we listen to, let us say, congressional members who are visiting from the committee of foreign affairs. So the structure in which policy is made erm of er in America is rather plural. British policy making and there are many similarities between our country, not in size but in terms of its democratic traditions, British policy making tends to be in the end more uniform. There tends to be, the differences tend to be hammered out behind closed doors and, on the whole, there, there tends to be erm a single voice, it doesn't always happen, but there's more of a single voice in British policy making than American policy making. Now both have advantages frankly, both have advantages and drawbacks. But the, the answer to the question then, are or is foreign policy making the same for all governments, again there are similarities. Linked to the question erm about the, the similarity, is the question are all states unique? Well each has a particular history erm each has a particular culture and pattern of doing things, structure of government as I've mentioned but also of course we have common interests so in foreign policy we sometimes draw differences between what we would regard as the direct interests of each state and what we can call common interests of mankind. Now let's take a couple of examples of those the direct interests of er say in Britain might be er let's take the example of the fishing industry it's important in Britain for the fishermen of Britain erm to have the right to be able to maintain their livelihoods and that's an interest, direct interest, of Britain in negotiating with other countries about fishing rights. But there is also a common interest in the world of preserving fishing stock, not over fishing so that in fact you get the depletion of fishing stock, and therefore somehow you have to balance between your particular interests and the common interests. I think we've become erm in recent decades more inter more concerned about common interests because we realize more about them. Well perhaps the technological advances we've seen mean our capacity to handle things has had to expand. There's a common interest of course of avoiding war for most people anyway, but there's also a common interest we know related to environmental issues and that cannot be dealt with by each country, each country may have unique environmental problems but environmental problems straddle erm boundaries of countries as we saw from the Chernobyl problem of some years ago. And the final general question I want to ask is how much choice do foreign policy makers have? There are in fact, again, conflicting views about this erm you can sometimes see it erm in literature in fact. If you read Tolstoy's novels you will find that the great figures,i i in his War and Peace which is about erm the Napoleonic invasion of erm Russia, has anybody read War and Peace? It's quite a big book so I erm a good weekend's reading, War and Peace. Well in War and Peace it's a story of the er I mean there are many themes go on but the broad sweep of history is about the Napoleonic invasion of Russia and the way the Russians defended themselves against the French armies. Now within that situation Tolstoy paints a picture in which the, even the greatest generals are in fact subject to forces which they cannot control. In a sense destiny is playing it out for them. You have some choices but they're pretty marginal, frankly, on the whole erm the choices are predetermined for people erm we are like minnows in a global situation. And so you can see by the Tolstoy approach to things the way in which erm choice is really very limited and there's a great sweep of events which carries you on. Now if you read Mrs Thatcher's memoirs you will decide that instead of a great sweep of events er making things happen, Mrs Thatcher makes things happen. Erm it's the other end of the scale of seeing the way in which individuals erm perceive their role erm in political developments. And again, you see this is on the one hand, on the other hand there is some justification in both views. Any state has limitations on how it can behave, they're partly geographical, it does make a difference whether you're an island or whether you've got no coastline at all. In southern Africa several of the states have no coastline, Zambia Zimbabwe Malawi Swaziland so they have to depend upon other countries for access erm to the coast, and that means their transport patterns are very very dependent upon others. That's not true of an island country like Japan, or of Singapore and they are very much related to transport routes in which they can control much of what's happened. Secondly of course there are opportunities and limitations to your, the resources that you have and I've mentioned resources before, they can be economic, military, your education system erm you know at the moment the government's expanding higher education, going up, well we've, we've touched already I think thirty percent now in higher education one of the reasons for that is not just to, for self-fulfilment for those who are erm involved in higher education as I'm sure you're all self-fulfilling yourself here today, it's because of what is perceived to be a national need for a highly educated workforce. So there are educational erm resources erm as well as others and in my view one of the great gaps that's starting er that's growing and growing in the world is the difference between educational patterns in the more advanced world and that in some parts of what we normally call the Third World. But of course there is some choice erm let me give you a final southern er Africa example of this, Botswana geographically is one of those countries cut off from the sea, it's a very large country but much of it is uninhabitable because it's so arid it's therefore a small country by almost any standards, number of people, the economy of er of Botswana is small and it's frankly dependent upon South Africa in many ways for its transport, for its economic wellbeing, for the movement of people erm and even some educational resources. Now Botswana could not cut itself off from South Africa during the long years of apartheid but Botswana did make clear that it opposed apartheid and voiced this very strongly and much to the annoyance often of the South African government. So even in the situation in which apparently you're quite heavily dependent upon a neighbouring state, there usually is some element of choice. The range and nature of that choice maybe related to the concept of power and I want to talk about power at a future lecture. But for today I now want to turn to a number of erm definitions and classifications linked to foreign policy and this is where I want you to start working a bit harder. The first thing I'd like you to do is try to write er will you please write down erm don't shout out at the moment, write down what would be your definition of foreign policy. Write down a definition of foreign policy, one sentence definition of foreign policy. Good well let's try to collect some of the ideas then, would the man sitting in the extreme front, would you like to read out what you've written please? Yes please. Erm the process of maintaining a state's interest in the international arena. Maintaining a state's interest in the international arena, that's a very good start. Good, let me try the man in red in the centre please, yes. Yes please, you're looking round, yes, yes w w what have you written? You, you're in red and you've got glasses an and you're looking, you're keep on looking down and round and but it's you I would like to hear from yes what have you written? It's erm political state's interaction with other states. State's interaction with other states. That's good too. Yes, sorry I'm, I'm er it's dim here so I, sorry I I erm let me try somebody else. The lady right at the back on the, on the b end of the row. What have you got? Erm cross state political, economic, social, military and technological issues. Across states military, economic, etcetera issues, is that right? And I'll try somebody over here please if I could, the man with his elbow on the left like that, that's right. Could, sorry, could you speak up please? Any domestic policy which Any domestic policy Yes affects the outside world. Well they're all, they've all got value, they're all useful. Let me read out roughly what I've got down here, it is the the pr presentation and er er sorry I've scribbled down and I can't read my scribble altogether, I know it's it's interests in international affairs, could you read out again what you said? The process of maintaining a state's interest in the international arena. The process of maintaining a state's interest in the international arena. So it's a process, it's got interests, it's related to a state and it's in the international arena, very good, very good, a lot of erm er a lot of very good things there. Now who was the state's interests with other states, was it were you the state's interests in other states or no, I keep getting you wrong. Yes where did I get the state's interest in other states from? Well I'll have to accept that I don't know where that came from but I've got down here state's interest with other states, and then across state activity, I know where I got, the girl right at the back wasn't it? Good yes so I've got that right, erm across states, military, economic issues etcetera from others so a range of activities goes on, that's fair enough. Erm and then any domestic policy which affects the outside, so that's a projection of domestic interests erm into the outside world, so I'll show you what I've written down and it's influenced by what you've got in that book by Clarke, I'm afraid it falls off the end a bit, foreign policy is a government activity concerned with relations between the state and other actors in the international arena, that should be. So foreign policy is a government activity concerned with relations between the state and other actors in the international system. Now frankly you, the things that you said are, are not wrong in any sense, they just are different ways of saying a similar thing. Let's look at the definition a bit. First of all it's a government activity, now let's be quite clear about that, we're talking about governments here, we're not talking about erm oil companies or private airlines or non-governmental organizations like Amnesty International, we're talking about governments. Foreign policy is an activity of governments. Secondly it's concerned with relations between the state, that is the particular state that the government represents, and other actors in the international system. Now the next thing I'd like you to note down is when I say other actors in the international system, obviously there are other governments as well but as well as governments if you, the word actors is quite often used in international affairs, if you were to list what the other actors are erm would you, would you note down them, say, put four or five other actors. Right let me collect your ideas on this then, erm would you like to tell me what you've written please? Er er World Health Organization W H O, the World Health Organization. erm international charities such as the Red Cross Charities, okay that's, that's a good contribution, I don't want to take them all from you, I want others as well. Erm United Nations er U N, European Commission? You're talking about the commission in particular? Yes? No that's alright. Okay. Right erm let me go right to the back, the Security Council man, what have you written down? Erm foreign businesses er international laws What was the international laws? Maintenance. international laws shipping lanes and stuff like that. Oh yes, yes. Okay. Yes. Somebody over here, the young lady with black hair, that's right. Erm well I'd put down the U N Yes, U N, okay. Anything else? Okay. Well that's quite a good collection. W first of all though I think I've got them right this time I hope, the World Health Organization, charities, the United Nations, the European Commission erm foreign business organizations and l the bodies that lay down regulations er for activities. Well what we see, if we generalize about these, first of all there are international organizations, the U N is an international organization. So is the World Health Organization, it's in fact a branch of the U N, so you've got a series of international organizations. Any other examples of international organizations? Yes please? The world bank. The world bank, the world bank is actually a branch started from the U N. Yes? NATO. NATO, yes that's, that, NATO is a of course a military organization. I think there's a very interesting as well as the, I mean the tragedy that we know of Bosnia Hercegovina, there's a very complex business going on at the moment about the handling of an international situation. Erm you've got this, this business of threatening to attack the Serbian guns erm involves of course the decisions of individual governments whether or not they're prepared to allow their forces to be involved, in the case of the British whether you're going to allow your forces to get involved in it or not, but in international terms it involves both NATO, which has now passed a resolution saying unless certain conditions are met by a certain time, then there will be bombing of the Serbian positions but the people on the ground, whether they originally came from France or the Ukraine or from Britain, are in fact under the blue beret of the United Nations and the United Nations and NATO are not altogether, they're not precisely together on this issue. There's a dilemma of who's taking decisions about what and should the troops on the ground who may be involved, could be involved in fighting following an air strike erm are not under a NATO flag, they're under a United Nations flag, so it is quite a complex situation and a very delicate one to handle. So there, there are international organizations. Now charities, we would group them together as N G Os they're often called, non- governmental organizations. Now we've heard charities, any other examples of N G Os? Yes please? UNICEF. The union society? No Oh sorry. UNICEF. UNICEF yes, that's a, another branch of the United Nations but it is, it does operate you're quite right. Any other? Pressure groups. Pressure groups, yes, for example? Greenpeace. Greenpeace, very good. Pressure groups, Greenpeace the anti-apartheid movement, Amnesty International they do play important parts. Any members of Amnesty here? Good. You see you're part of the international scene whether you realize it or not. So non-governmental organizations. And then even within two of you mentioned the European Commission, now the Commission is of course a part of what's nown now known as the European Union erm it's a particular branch but even within the broader framework, parts can play an important role erm within international affairs and the Commission has a particular role, not just within the European Union, but of course in international affairs generally. The negotiations for the GATT agreement, the general oh er what, what does GATT mean? General Very good. The General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade. It was negotiated on behalf of the European Community, as it then was, by who led the negotiation? Leon Brittan, absolutely right, and he was representing the Commission, yes. Yes and then of course you get business organizations, the and much business is now internationally based, we've, we recognize this recently from the erm the purchase of Rover by B M W erm but of course the big companies have operated for long across international boundaries, whether it be oil companies like Texaco or chemical companies like I C I erm or MacDonalds, you know one of the symbols that erm lets you know Russia had been opened up to the international community was the erm presence of a MacDonalds' erm shop in Moscow. Anybody been to Moscow? Did you go to Macdonalds? No, well it is one of the sights as you know but erm I'm sure you heard about it when you were there didn't you? Yes. Right erm well I hope I've covered most of the range of things that come. Now let me push on a bit and erm I won't ask you to write this down, but when we, we've been talking about the state now what are the characteristics of the state? Well first of all the state has geographical boundaries, that is you enter a state whether it be Fiji or the United States, as I mentioned before, by crossing a boundary. Now the boundary may be a sea boundary, it may be land boundary, it may be an air boundary because the states claim a control over erm particular physical structures. The land boundaries are probably the easiest of all. When you cross the Rhine you can, in some places, you can cross from France to Germany, it's a very clear one. Erm sea boundaries are now a bit more complex because the law of the sea has been changing erm over recent decades. There is an i a concept of territorial water, that is the water which surrounds a particular state erm is controlled by that state and falls within the laws of that state. Erm there used to be an agreed area of three miles then it went to twelve miles but that's now in question because of the different ways in which the sea has been developed. Erm if you have, if you envisage the sea this is the top, I'm not a great artist as you can see but you, things er here's my boat sailing on the top of the sea, well there's laws related to that erm when does a boat, for example, enter territorial waters, come within your law. There's also erm, that's a fish swimming in the sea, there's also a law related to fishing, as I mentioned before. There's also erm attempts at regulation related to what lies on the sea bed because in some parts of the oceans there are valuable mineral deposits lying on the sea bed. Who owns them? Much of it is in the middle of the Pacific, you see, which used to be a common area but the only people who could, at the moment, have the technology to tap those resources are the very advanced states so there is a dispute about the right to develop those or not. And then there is underneath the sea bed, which has been very important for the United Kingdom because of the great oil and gas resources which we found and if you had had er more limited erm concepts of the Yes. We shall just have to pretend it's not there, there's not, there's not quite as bad as when I had to speak for Amnesty on Radio Essex last year and it was live, as every word, every word I spoke was being you know being heard by a lot of people and that's, that was very, that was very intimidating. Erm, I think since we've got some new people here, I'll, I'll perhaps just say a little bit about the group shall I, just to explain how we operate and erm and also how this meeting is going to operate erm. We are one of about three hundred Amnesty groups in the country, probably about this size, perhaps, well were, were, I mean this, this group is probably about an average for the, you know, the groups in the country, some are smaller, some are much larger, but er, usually it's about a dozen or so people meeting once a month or, or that often in a room, erm, but apart from groups there are a l there are a great many more people who are called individual members of Amnesty about eighty thousand I think now who are, who just joined by writing to headquarters and many of those have no contact with the groups at all, we've had list of the people in this area and they run into hundred and fifty, two hundred people who live in this area who er, who belong, who, who belong to Amnesty but don't actually come to a group except for a small number of us. So the, the groups are very important though, because the groups do a great deal of the work for Amnesty, cos Amnesty's different from many organisations erm in that er, what the groups do, particularly the letter writing erm, helps to make the organisation work, it's not just a matter of raising money, we do things to, to fund raise or two, er have a proper publicity erm, the le the letters we write for prisoners and helps Amnesty to do it's work and not many other organisations operate like that. You can still do that as an individual member, cos in the magazine that comes every two months there are always cases, but er, it er, it's not qu ite the same as doing it in a group where we have our own particular prisoners to look after. So as far as this meeting's concerned, erm, most of our meetings are basically business meetings, but we, we have tried and we will try to put in speakers and, and do different things from time to time, we had er, er a woman last time who'd been to Central America recently and she gave us a very interesting talk on a visit to El Salvador and Guatamala, erm, and we, we'd like to do that more often, but, but what we do really erm, to begin with any rate, is we go th we go through the, the headings on this sheet, on the, on the minutes, we use them as headings for others and erm, items on the agenda and er some may have more to say than others and there are one or two not on there which we'll pop in as we go along. So we start with apologies, does any one have any apologies to give to Ann? Yeah, Nicki and Saria. Yeah, Mike, Mike and , he's erm I don't think he's, I think he will be able to in future he's got a meeting arranged tonight and he'll be here next time. We don't have from Hockerill school do we? Mm. Yes, yes. You're there, oh sorry . you're not the same that's why, that's why . . I'm sorry, I'm so sorry, right, so you're from Hockerill school? Yes. Right, good, that's . Margaret can, can you ask, if I circulate that list again can you put your surname, anyone who's new, your surname, and then address. Oh are you new? Yes. Can you put your surname and address, so I can send you the minutes after this. I've got . Right, and, and, so your, your group's actually is it now? Yes. , the other way, the other way of, in which you can get more close to live Amnesty is to affiliate as a school group or a youth group or a religious group erm, that's nice to see you tonight. Erm right now, er if you look at the minutes then of last meeting erm, can anyone see any thing they want to correct there at all? If they, if they seemed to be alright then I just sign a copy and that goes into our records. Can I just draw people's attention to the very last point which was made in case any one sending large sums of cash through the post office, erm, it, it's been running for a long time My mum was the only one who . And you're . So what are you talk . Your, your correct address is, is road isn't it, it's still reads as if it might not be, please note that on the membership list, Velma 's address is not Avenue. Is there a Avenue ? It's Avenue . It should be road . It should be road. So, is there a Avenue? Yes, there is, yes. Oh, I see. She normally she brings them round to me, but erm. Shall we just, yeah , getting fed up with it. On membership list Velma 's address should be It should be, should be, yeah. Should be 's Road, not Avenue. Right erm, so were happy with the, with the minutes otherwise, alright I'll, I'll sign them, er Eleventh. eleventh, always have to look at them to see . Like that. Oh you want the surnames of is that what you mean surnames of the Hockerill people? Yeah . They're, they're on, they're both on. Oh they are on there, alright, and I've got your address,. I've got the address of the other, the other . Right, erm, now are there any matters arising from the minutes which erm, you want to bring up now, which won't come up under any other heading? Usually it's sort of following up things which have been mentioned, which, erm, Mary events that have taken place. I wonder about this Justice and Peace Group who requested a speaker, did they hear any more? Mary lives near them. Well then? Well I'm rather curious erm phone call from Eric , Ernest Ernest is the chair of the Saffron Waldren Group, yes. People keep asking Saffron Waldren Mm. for help and in fact, I had already spoken to the Justice and Peace Group, so I don't really know where the muddle had come, but he said he got a, a list from British Section and Bishop's Stortford hasn't got any representative at all, which is extraordinary, so I don't whether Rose has little note and told Mr . A list of what? Got a representative for as a speaker? No, representative Amnesty, all for, only known he had, I think it was Ann's and he, Ann was out he didn't get her, I thought, no it wasn't you, it was Ann, and he, and he couldn't get her, I don't understand quite what's he talking about, but anyway, I phoned the Justice and Peace Group and found they'd already , spoken . yes, and a, she's phoned tonight and said she hadn't arranged anything yet, but it's in hand. Oh, I see she hasn't actually given a talk, but she's going to. But she's, she going to deal with it?. I think it's alright . I, I haven't spoken to her,since the last meeting, so But if you do speak to them, perhaps you could get them affiliated again, cos they used to be didn't they in Sister May and Paul's time. I don't know where they? Yes. . That was Justice and Peace Group at St. Ersly? Yes. Oh right. Yeah. Yes. Yes. So when he's . Yes, yes we should ask Saria when he speaks to them, to see if they could do that, no, right. What happened, what , it's not as bad as it sounds, it'll. Oh that's, that's a hand that she, she's going to speak, that's for the . But, but, erm, I understand from quite often got erm individual member quir enquiries to Saffron Waldren cos they couldn't find a group erm, there's a . Oh that's for . Yes that's in, in the Highbury it's in the phone book so See I don't know what Any rate I said we were very much alive. That's right, so if . . Right, okay, the other thing I was going to ask about we, we had a big promotion of Amnesty by The Body Shop, last year, er and we noticed that Our Price were also going to do promotion of Amnesty and we asked, wonder if we look into local shops and see what they could find out and what was going on, did you find anything? Yeah, I, I went in yesterday actually, I spoke to the assistant manager and erm, it, it was not good news at all, he got two like plastic dispensers of leaflets in front of the till . and erm, they were absolutely chocker, they were really full and he said erm, I sa , he said he hadn't had to fill them up at all in all the time that it's been running, and no, I asked him if he had any enquiries and nobody stopped him and asked anything about it, and then he turned to the other lad who was beside him the sales assistant and he said no I've had no enquiries at all, so that was it. It's a similar story I just took erm, some leaflets, take a look at that. It's just erm oh it's their own leaflet at Our Price Yes. Yes. Yes, but it's about the erm, thirty to er Thirty thirtieth anniversary yes, erm, the programme on television Mm, mm. erm, but again they said they'd hardly, hardly anyone had taken any. Was that the only publicity though, there were no other, no . Alright Liz? I didn't , I think that was the, that was it, it was just that . Would you bring that other chair . . . Er,group . I don't know whether it . would the, did the staff seem interested, a got a nil positive response from them, assistant manager or the other guy who sort of looked at me as if I Erm , no, no, no it wasn't like that at Harlow . I wrote out a . Oh doesn't sound very, doesn't sound very hopeful. Oh dear. Erm The Body, The Body Shop staff were all give were all given training weren't they and, and a lot of details and they had a video that they use with them, perhaps that's the aspect that's not been looked at so well. Mm. Yeah. Still they've got leaflets there, that's something I suppose, mm, right, so there's not, there's not a lot more we can do then really is there? Yeah . Unless you can have Think it's . no, if they're, if they're, if they're not doing it, you know, the way The Body Shop did it, probably won't come to anything, mm, right, erm, are there any other matters arising, people want to bring up from the minutes?no. Oh, probably the future of . Yes, yes, I think. Erm, right, so we'll move on, erm to the treasurer's report er now that Val is a treasurer she can tell us how we stand. Right , well we have two hundred and sixty five pounds and sixty eight pence in the bank at the moment, erm which actually isn't very much if you think that we've got to go right through to July to our next fund raising event, so, I was wondering that, if anyone hasn't paid their subscriptions for last year or if anyone owes for Christmas cards, I think there's one or two How much is the subscription? I don't know, you'll have to ask Mary. Right. How much is it Mary? I think it's still No you didn't pay I didn't. no, I know. I think I made a little note. I think it's still only five pounds, isn't it? Oh I haven't checked with . Mary, Mary, how much is the subscription? Well it's, we haven't altered it, it's still two fifty if you're an individual member and five pound if you're not . If you're , yes. . We need a lot of new members . It's because the erm, we can't really let, let the balance go to low especially if we've got the A G M coming up or probably be erm something . don't we? I don't, I don't really know, I can't remember what Twelve hundred pounds. We extend it to this year as well as last? No, what I mean is, we don't double the amount, I'm sorry we, were supposed to send six hundred . Ah. In fact this has been a bit over ambitious, very pleased with ourselves weren't we, perhaps we haven't given ourselves enough? But, there's still some Christmas cards. Ah right, well perhaps we can chase people up when they . They, there's the little bits, yes not too much, but a little bit. Oh yes, that's . But we have been as l low as that before? Oh yes, yes. Yes, it's just that quite right, we haven't got a fund, a major fund raising event now until July, unless anything else of, you know, smaller crops up and our two street collections we know will bring in quite a lot of money . Yeah, that's right and we had the car park last year didn't we? Mm, mm. Mm. That was earlier on. Mm, well, we'll just have to go, go easy . So, that's all I think. Yes, as I say. Right, now erm, the next item is the prisoner, but we actually don't have a prisoner at the moment do we, because our, we have, we eat, every Amn each Amnesty Group has er usually nowadays one er given to look after and our most recent prisoner was er Sabri Lushe, is that the right one? Yes. From, from Yugoslavia, and we, we heard provisionally he was released about August didn't we, and then eventually a couple of months ago that he had definitely released, erm, and, were, were very pleased about that cos was he released before the end of his term, he must have been? He was, well it wasn't much before it, it was erm, he should of come out in February, he came out the Previous July. Mm, mm. So. Mm So, seven months , plus another year I think he had already . Yes . And he was previously in, in prison for del for handing out leaflets, er asking for the Independence or the separation of his bit of Serbia wasn't he, from, from the, from the rest. Erm, so what were doing is were, we hope were waiting for a new prisoner to be allocated to us, erm, and perhaps we could, perhaps we could, perhaps we can write and remind you think, think we should do that? Yes. Haven't heard anything at all have we? I'm not sure, in the lists in the magazine we should have appeared as being having been released Yes, I'll check it. he hasn't been in has he? Mm. . I think they were playing on the, the sheet I'd sent back doesn't say that we hadn't had any official conformations, still didn't, although we had, had it on the telephone we hadn't had anything written. No, Val, have we still not had a letter from er No, no, we haven't from M I S and that?. We, we had a letter from the International Secretarium in August or September I think saying that they'd changed the law and all prisoners of a certain category should have been released and our prisoners were amongst, our prisoner was amongst that list, but erm, they didn't say that they haven't got any definite news whether he had been or not, about the release. Yeah, mm. And it wasn't until I phoned the co-ordinators that he was able to tell me that, oh yes, yes, that was months ago he said . you know, haven't you heard? and I said well we've not had any official conformation. Well . Yeah, this, this is interesting, it gets confusing perhaps because erm, I rang British Section, British Section today erm, enquiring about er, ah, there it is, were, were are we , erm enquiring about er groups having two prisoners you brought this up last time and as the result of me talking to somebody there erm, it became clear that British Section still showed us as having Sabri Lushe as a prisoner, erm and they weren't aware that we were no longer dealing with him, he'd been released, and what they say is they usually get conformation from International Secretarium Mm. erm and I said well, you know, as far as I'm aware we've had conformation Yes, but it's not written you see. but, not written. But it's interesting, but the Erm. the co-ordinator was very definite about his list, he, there was no question that, that he had, he'd, he'd got something written is, even he hadn't. Mm. Perhaps we, I mean, then British Section said to us on this erm and I'd s , already said I think er by the time it got to this stage of conversation that we were without a prisoner at the moment, but, but awaiting one, and he said well, that would ex , that would explain it because er, until we initiate it, British Section initiates it you won't get another prisoner, they're waiting for conformation from R E S Won't get one . Ah well in that case it would be a good idea to write to R E S . So it needs some, an action somewhere to erm, er, er, he said could we get, if we've got a conformation, conformation that's from R E S could you send it to British Section. No, we haven't I anywhere . Yes, we , yes the, the rea the reason why it, this why confu confusions is if anyone else doesn't realise is that the International Secretaire, which is the International Body controlling all Amnesty Groups throughout the world of which there are maybe fifty, sixty, I've lost count of the number, erm . is, is, in London and we deal with the British Section which is are the particular bits, but the prisoners have to be vatted and looked at and found by the International Secretaires, then they're passed on to British Section who pass them on to us and a great deal of research goes into making sure that they really are truly prisoners of conscience, that they've been in prison for some er possibly because of their belief or religion or their race erm and they've not taken or advocated violence not taken part in or advocated violence and then, then they are full prisoners of conscience erm we maybe allocated them. Who should I write to British Section or? Well some, I think it's probably British Section, probably the best way just to write and say that we know, this is the case Erm let them, let, do you think, let them, let, cos if we leave it to International Secretaire they may still not do it. Mm. Or both. Co-ordinator come under British Section and International Secretaire? The what? The co-ordinator. I don't, there isn't a Co-ordinator for prisoners as such is there? No, I'm not sure . There's a Crawly for Yugoslav So you go prisoners that I, I list them Ah, yes . Yeah, and is he, under British Section? He comes under British Section. Mm, and if he knows he's been released why doesn't British Section knows this? Well. Mm. It's serious isn't it. Well we cou , we could write to both if necessary I mean they'd want them to know that we, that our prisoner's been released and that we can have another one. Yeah Well, certainly, who ever it was I spoke to today said their files show they was, was still dealing with it. Mm. What was the outcome of the request of the multiple persons? Right, the, I was, about to er come to that, erm the erm, there is no reason why a group should not have more than one prisoner erm, the practical situation is that, that groups are queuing up to, to get a prisoner at the moment in fact, erm, not always the situation but at presently there is a waiting list for who have groups to have a prisoner allocated to them, erm, if we so wish er, ah, if, if a group comes onto the list who has er, ah, and their prisoner is released and, and we, we er in that situation we, and any group without a prisoner at all goes to the head of the list and be allocated straight away, but we could request a second prisoner and that case would be put to the bottom of the list, so when the other groups who, who've got no prison will take priority now, but we, we could request a second prisoner if we so wanted so you are talking about a motion at the A G M, but it's not really necessary Oh I see. it is . The possibility's always there, but The possibility's there if we wish to take that up. Yes, I've always, I've always understood, understood more recently the reason why that there would always seemed to be enough prisoners, when we know there really must be enough prisoners throughout the world is that the betting procedure and they're making quite sure they're the right people takes time and money and effort, erm, that's part and also there are some areas of the world now, where, where there aren't as many prisoners as there were, there are very few, there are very few prisoners of conscience in Latin America because they don't put them in prison they just get rid of them, they just disappear and there are practically, practically none from Latin America countries, cos of these, these disappearances rather than being put in prison, erm, but it's a sort of combination of reasons I think but er quite a long time now, ten, fifteen years I think groups have only had one prisoner, whereas when I first joined and Ann's there, we had three didn't we at one time? Yes, oh yes So, that was when there were far fewer numbers of groups than there are now. Mm. Mm, so I'll see. But anyway, our, our prisoner, we, we, we are fairly sure he's been released, he's a, we had him for about two was it one or two years? About eighteen months I think. Yes and on the whole recently we've had prisoners who been imprison for sort of two or three years, we've, we've made up petitions, we've sent postcards and we've, we've written letters and er they've been released in reasonably short space of time, but then mostly the prisoners which, who haven't had a very long sentence, unlike the one I mentioned on the way here tonight , have the Russian who had been in thirty years Ooh. erm and he was released and he came to Harlow and we meet him and that was, that was very good, erm, but we haven't had one like that, you know for a long time. Erm just noticing press we did, say last time that would be, that Sabir's release would be mention in the press, did you manage that? Yeah , yeah, Oh. Well, well I'll do it in the Yes, yes,. Erm Right Sorry, got to, got, a, clarifying on that then, what, who we writing too on that I'm, I'm . Who do you think you're writing too? I . Erm. I mean, I, I was very much got the impression from her I, I'm sorry I didn't get a name, the chap I was speaking to, but erm it, he, he was very distinct that we should get a letter from I S and that have conformation and, and, er and send it on, you know, that, they all should also should get a copy, so it, it strikes me we should perhaps write a write to I S and perhaps send a copy with a covering letter to British Section I got erm and brochures sort of thing you know. Do you think we should go to I S . Yes, British Section . That an idea , yes, we, if we let them both know then, then erm, we might we might speed things up. Yeah, yeah, then , yeah. Mm. Erm, see if, if there's a a hitch and also get er something out. Mm. Get things moving. Yes, because it'll be nice, us, it's, I mean they, abode there is a lot oth , there is, there is a lot of other work now, there prisoner are prisoner of is still fairly central isn't it,he or she to be, to be er, the work we do. The most sort of personal thing I suppose, erm, let the group open . Right, now if we look on, erm we come to Regional Action Networks, another reason why Amnesty seems not to allocate more than one prisoner and all now is that they have expanded the ways in which we deal with prisoners and the world is more or less been divided up into areas, erm, of smaller regions and groups are asked to choose one or two regions to deal with particularly and we, we have for quite a long time now erm been concerned with Southern Africa and Central America and we get information through on prisoners and what's happening in those two regions, so John do you have anything else on Africa at all? Erm, I have nothing at all through me, erm, no action's come and er no information really, there is this change of co-ordinates up erm You mention that. co-ordinates up, erm, you know, I haven't yet had contact from er no, I thought I'd been given a new name, but, no I haven't had con any contact from my new co-ordinator yet, erm, but that wasn't in my mind when I spoke on Thursday about Christmas, perhaps I ought to pursue that one in time for the next meeting and see what's happening in South Africa and are getting it in South America for . Yes. Erm, I'll, well perhaps pursue that Mm, mm. for the ne , in time for the next meeting, erm there was, what's full name for er not sending in a return or couple of returns erm at the last meeting and I've dealt with that and sent them off, have they sent you anything else? No, thank god . Right erm . but er, I have nothing, nothing, er no actions at all which is mysterious to me, I, why nothing's going on I don't know. Yeah, right, thank I'm jealous of Peter he always has much more . Are you kidding? It's, I, I mean these, these, the work with, with the original action network seems to, seems to come and go, you've got a very large amount at one point and then nothing for sometime, it just depends er, I think which country they're targeting and how much there is, because we had quite a lot on Malawi didn't we during the early part on last year not much on South Africa recently, as if they don't quite know what to do, you know with the situation there it's not quite er clarified. Mm. Right, now Peter do you have anything on Central America this time? Erm not a great deal, no actions Mm, mm. er, so I've a, isn't it, it's a case of no news is possibly good news again, erm, I'm trying to get in touch with the National Co-Organiser for Carl and John without er any success erm, I know he was going to the erm, the British Section just erm, he was gonna check on them and what actions were forthcoming but er, I haven't heard about that erm, I dare say there's some on the way erm, the erm, the other few points were erm Jackie's talk last month she mentioned that erm she was gonna give sort of the more forms sort of side presentation and stuff at their centre in North London, I've gotta date for that now, it's erm the eighteenth of March, which is a Wednesday so eh, I'll certainly be going, if anybody else is interested that's er, that's the date er, it's, it's not entirely to do with but it, it has a link in, erm we were mentioning campaigns last month, I believe there's a fourth coming one on, indigenous peoples, which, er, it's, it's all sort of triggered off by erm the er five hundredth anniversary of Columbus discovering the Americas erm, the erm cast and the whole of all the sort of the Region and Action networks and the Americas are, erm gonna have a big link in with that campaign so, erm, I, I'd really like to see us sort of getting involved with that, yes, and, I mean, I'll be involved to an extent anyway, cos some of the actions that I'll getting will be sort of addressing the issue of indigenous people's but erm, erm, they if, if nobody else is wiling to take it on, I'll, I'll, I'd certainly be prepared to erm, sort of co-ordinate that campaign, erm, having said all that, erm I mentioned to a few people that erm, erm in the process of buying a house, so erm I could be moving in well hopefully as little as two months time so erm, I mean if er is as quite as it has been for the last few months, I probably won't have any problems, but erm, sod's law it's bound to pick up just as I'm moving house . so erm, Is the house local or erm? yeah it is local so I'll still be coming to the group, I mean it's erm, going, I mean erm just bear that in mind I might need sort of some help with coordinating cards and things, and erm, particularly if we do opt into the campaign, er it might be advisable for somebody else to do it, or at least sort of give me assistance. What is ? . It, ah sorry . I, I, I don't mention it . It's Central America's special action, stands for it's, gives another regional action network, erm, right, I think that's it. Right, now, erm, were going to have it on the actual headings as far as the minutes concerned cos we didn't deal with anything very much last time, but the next item on the agenda erm, is usually campaigns and Amnesty erm usually has one or two or more campaigns running on a particular aspect of it's work or a particular country and there was some that really started maybe two or three years ago and which have continued erm in a smaller form since that time. One of those is a death penalty campaign which was a very big one about two, two to three years ago when we focused particularly on, on the United States and all the other major countries which erm which er used the best penalty to fairly large extent, er do we have anything Catherine on that tonight?. Yes yes we do actually. Mm, mm. Erm, a couple of days ago, that's what they call a surprise action . What a surprise. we asked for space, and they said oh mid April, and that actually is the next schedule step down action and that's going to be on Europe and that'll run from April till June, erm but from now till April if anybody would like to write the country which is Chile and this is because they're, they suppose that they have extend the death penalty in Chile to include the murder of an off duty police witnesses, at the moment it's only erm, the death penalty only exists for on duty police officers . so, erm, it's not actually very big, there are about eight addresses here, they do say if anybodies able to write in Spanish if anybody can sort of if you write in English, maybe could send it to you, could get it translated at the Stortford , oh that might be very useful, erm, I mean, I'll certainly do some letters and if anybody else wants to, if they let me know I'll let them have the addresses for them, erm, there are fax as well and that suppose to be a quicker way than writing a letter actually than send through a fax, right, erm, if anybody can then we could send them to you and, and ask you to send it on, and we would sort of postage, would be covered would it Margaret? Oh yes it could be, yes, it could, it could be, if it's not too much, not faxed now Yes, so the wouldn't be , no, no . So if anybody would like to write I'll let them have all the addresses, there are about eight there, so erm, otherwise it's just the urgent action network which is er a constant thing really. Did one yesterday for a man who was due to be executed today, erm, I don't know whether he was or not, but he probably in a few days time. Which country was that? United States . United States . Oh gosh. So er, that's it anyway it's just Chile at the moment. So you'd like people to come to you afterwards if, if they,help, they can . Yes, if they want to,take their address . Right, thank you, erm, now Ross isn't, is there anything further on the thir , last year was the thirtieth anniversary of Amnesty's foundation in nineteen sixty one and we've had a campaign and that, and that still sort of running is there anything more on that? Erm, no there's, there's nothing on that . No, no, no, so perhaps we have finished. Well, I mean, hopefully there, there'd be at least er sort of thing erm in the summery to see what went on during the year Mm, mm. at the moment we have nothing so just have to wait and see. Yeah, right. Now what about these other campaigns we mentioned last time, did we decide what, or did we leave it till this meeting cos there was India and there was Women's Women, yeah I spoke to and er, it just . Yes, er I'll campaign. India we were going to discuss it with . So women you've sent, have you sent up Avriel's name or will send it up. I'll will send it up . Yes. The late contact . It wasn't er, it wasn't a very long one was it, it was two or three months was it? Yeah Mm. I think it was February to April. Mm, actually we had a women's campaign last year didn't we? Yes we did didn't we? Sort of a continuation of We had a fairly good result Yes. I do recall four out of ten released. Mm, there was quite a lot of publicity given to that wasn't there? Yes, it was very good So you'll let me have that information? Or shall I, if I send the form off with your name, then they should come straight to you. Right, so what was the situation with India then? that's, that, how long was, how long does that run? Erm. Can't remember that far. Erm, I think it was March to about July something like that. March to July. Yeah. That's really a matter if, if anybody who's interested enough to take on what we call co-ordination, receiving the material and then you know, telling people what letters are needed. Erm Is that running for the same period of time as the Women's campaign, do you know? Seems to overlap it's just slightly longer isn't it? overlap slightly , March to Ju July. Mm, yes. Are these the campaigns involve then? This is receiving the material, passing and sort of distribute it to the people within the group who are interested in writing letters. And it's mainly just writing letters is it? And advertising it and just anything you can do, er You'll be, to . you'll be, you'll be sent instructions on what, who to write to and it's a matter of sorting those out and erm sending out letters to group members like asking them to write to this person or that person, so that's not too bad,. Are, are you interested then? some help , brilliant sort of meetings. Well can I bring, say bring it to the meeting and . Mm, mm, we might even manage, I mean, we, we might talk later on about this, but, perhaps you know have two or three people working on a campaign if, if, if, if it was felt to be better that way, mm, mm. Mm, yeah. You, you've had no news of this indigenous people as a campaign? No. I was wondering about that. . I'm sure it was in last month's news No. Good News letter. It hasn't been in the, I cover, but I have some information you gave me, it hasn't been in that at all, mm. Mm. Mm, perhaps it's gonna be a big one? Making making it, all I know sort of saving it, saving it perhaps to American news. It is, it is, it's gonna be a really campaign . I thought it was, the, they're gonna sort of initially kick it off in March No, it hasn't. It hasn't been mentioned, no, these things sometimes get delayed don't they? Yeah. Mm. Delayed. Is that right? I think it's gonna get most . Yeah. Were sending February news letters so if it's starting in March Can you give us a copy? , think were gonna swop. Right, er Liz would you do an just to receive the information on India and look through . Yes, if , Yeah . if I find it too much, cos I start, I'm starting a full time job again, I, I'll ask to share it hopefully. Yes, yes, it sounds it sounds as it's for a limited time anyway, so,you know Yeah . Good, thank you very much. Yeah, it says it starts in March . So I, I'm pull your name and address out . Oh, great Well we'll shall wait, we shall wait to hear about it, cos it, I don't see there was anything there was there? No. Right, so that's India, so that's good, so were, so the campaigns erm we are going to be involved in then er will be the Women's campaign and India campaign. That's quite good because y often there is a country though, we haven't had many campaigns on countries sort of lately have we, it's been more on different aspects on Amnesty's work so they're obviously going back to picking on countries where they deal, that'll . Right, now, the next item is the press and we have a press officer, yeah, like to, perhaps say what's been happening a little bit and, and you know talk about the next time. No, I haven't done anything recently, but today I actually rang publishing one of the papers about Sabri's release and spoke to a guy at the Herald and Post and someone at The Observer, said I hope you put something in this week. Mm, mm. And I actually found that it was, it was better to actually talk to them than just send them Press release . their press release , so I might do that in future, send out a release and then follow it up on the phone call. Cos you've got contacts now you know that, you know who the people are . Yeah, yeah , speak to them. Mm, mm. But I found at Herald and Post the actual reporters have only been meeting and I've been sending all the erm all the paper work to Harlow and Bishop's Stortford, but they're just sort of the erm, the advertising people so erm, that's why we've not had anything in the papers. Mm. Though I've found out now. Mm, mm. Have they moved to Luton recently somebody reported? I don't know. , had a conversation about this . Well when I rang about news was it June last year, they were still at Harlow. Mm. They used to be in they've all gone over to Luton. We do get bits in don't we from time to time? Yeah, yeah,recently. No. I think they, if they, I mean as long as they know we are going to tell them or give them something each month they ought, ought to begin to look out for it . No, it's just a bit of , you know the press release that . Mm. Especially if only goes in advertising section. Yes I think we, we started doing that originally because er the people from the Epping group said they did that every month didn't they, they, they issued a press release and sent it to all the local papers, that seems to be the way of doing it. Mm. And if you found that, you know, if find that Yeah,I might of thought still send out omitting the letter actually this month. Mm, mm. Probably. So I hope really there should be something in those two, and I'll try the Citizen and The Star tomorrow. Mm. Try speaking to Steve at The Star. At The Star? Yeah, he's quite useful, he's good at that sort of thing erm So this I thought about doing something on the erm, the new schools' group what we when we finish the . cos I get some details from they like that sort of thing. Well. If you're happy with that? Mm. . Yes , yes. Yeah, I, I start at the moment . . Yeah. Yes, have you, I mean if you, ask Kate then Kate can come, come to these four . Good. If we can do the Insemination things . . Did I tell you about that? . When we went, it was really funny, when we went to do the, the talk erm, afterwards when we were all sort of getting together and having a chat, they're telling me about, they do artificial, they artificial inseminate pigs Inseminate pigs . don't you, up at with a cork and a bit of cotton wool. . And and John and I were just in fits. .. It's not part of the . No,. What item were we on? . Right, so, were hap were happy with that then? So, we'll, we'll, we'll do something on, on, on the on Hockerill school group, if, if you're happy with that? Yes, we have had other school groups but they, this is the thing, this, I mean, it could happen with you, as, as people move on and leave school er you need to encourage people lower down the school to get interested and then, then it'll, it'll carry on otherwise they tend to drop. Right, now we've come I think to future events, erm, and we need to just try and list anything you know that's coming up so, partly so that we've actually got it down writing and we can look back on it. So we noted last time that I booked the library in Bishop's Stortford for two periods, this year for display, we've booked the er street collection in Bishop's Stortford for July, now are there any other dates we need to mention . No, we we got the Harlow street collection though, erm seventeenth of October. Seventeenth of October. Yeah. These, these two collectors are, are our main big fund raising events, erm, we, we have got, we have got erm, is that over, we have got over five hundred haven't we in Harlow I'm, and Bishop's Stortford haven't we? Erm, in fact we've got five hundred and twenty seven that Is that Bishop's Stort ? Harlow one. In Harlow. The last of the collection is Harlow, last intake. Mm, mm. Yeah. And that, and that was a bit of a all year so that's, that passed . Yes. Erm, and we, we find although Amnesty does run er door to door collection which we are always encouraged to join in which we never have , which is I think always in June, in June now, it's good time, it's a good time of year for it, but that means going round putting envelopes in doors, going back and collecting them, the arguments on the doorstep about Amnesty , er going back again if people are not in and we, we as a, relatively small group covering a very big area we, we haven't felt able to do that, and we actually find that by standing in the street with each person having a tin for one or two hours, we can do quite well that way and er, that's, that's . They say Wednesday erm activity at Latton Bush, thanks for sending that information, I've sent off the letter and said that we will take a stall and if anyone's free to help Me. on the seventh March. Which day? Wo Women's day? Mm, International Women's day. What day of the week? Erm, I think it's a Saturday Ann the seventh. The seventh of March? But even if no one else can help I will take part in it. Where, is that the Playhouse . I think it's,excuse me, I think it's at erm, it's a I think it's at Latton Bush, I'm not, I'm waiting for the It's been at the Playhouse in past years though. Oh, well maybe. No, it wasn't, wasn't at last year was it? Was it? Well last year I did it at Latton Bush . Well what, what's the date?. The seventh. The seventh of March. Erm, so that's going to be before our next meeting isn't it? So erm, if anybody wants to help contact me . Yes, what time, how much is, how much the day is it all day? I haven't any details either than what she said . No . Erm, shall we erm see, what shall we do about this, it's Saturday the seventh of March, on a Saturday As I say I'll take a stall and I'll be there all day if anyone can help me. Right , well perhaps I, perhaps people could as actually come and speak to me afterwards, if they, if they think they could help at all, that's International Women's Day and all the local organisations have been asked to take part Certainly , it's, it's for your . It was quite good last year. Yes, and we could sell our products and that's sort of thing. Yeah our things ,. And that's a good way of advertising our . Mm, right, we've got a list, ah, you probably know, there's a list, a list isn't there, of, of sort of sale products, have you had that at all?, thing that came with us, with your, with . No . Yes I got it, but you may not of had it. I will pass it on, I will pass it on to you. We, we sell quite a lot of Amnesty products, a lot, a lot of clothing in every on tonight. Yeah. Tee-shirts and er sweat shirts and all sorts of things so we can take them along, so that's, that's Saturday the m , seventh of March, if you think you can help at all see Avriel afterwards. have you got a date? Yeah, got a couple. Anything you we got some of those things, tell me, I'll bring it along . Mm, yeah,. Right any other future events that ought to be mentioned. Erm, I suppose I don't know whether we ought, whether we should mention it here, erm, the, the National A G M is a future event really isn't it? Yes,. Erm. brought it with me. Er. . And what are the dates again, I think it's the weekend before Easter isn't it I think? Er, oh. April Run out of hold on. Right, April, April the tenth to the twelfth, is the, is the National Amnesty A G M which is held over a weekend and this year is in Exeter . Exeter . The twelfth. Exeter, er so that's the weekend before Easter. Er of April. And we, we normally have members go, we've had as many as five one year, or was it six, erm, not always that many I think, was it three of you went last year, I think it was three wasn't it? Three last year. Yes, erm, and, and we, were prepared to subsidise as far as our finances would allow, you know people who are going, but Ex Exeter is quite a long way, so the travel is going to be something isn't it? Erm Well I think who's, who's thinking of going? I, I, I've booked, erm Oh. Out comes yeah, so . You thinking of going erm Yeah I eh Peter? should still be going, yeah. Sari's going. Sari's going . Oh Sari . Yes I spoke to her . Yes, she's definitely going isn't she? Mm, mm. Any, anybody else. Anybody else thinking of going? Any other offers? Cos, cos you're going by car are you or? I'll, I'll drive yeah, so there are three seats spare in my car, vehicle. So that you Plymouth . Instead of writing a check, send the cheque . If you can stand the strain of the noise and diesel engine all that way. . All the girls in the back. You can get there, you can get there, perhaps, if you can get there I've got a seat in the back mate. You can get there on motorway, erm, all the way practically, can't you? . Mm. You can get there on motorway all the way. I ha I haven't looked at the round there, yeah, I'm, I'm sure it's not too bad really, you know, you know . M four . Right is there anybody else cos we have got forms haven't we?. . It's not that long if that's the case then, er, not that long a journey either. No. It's motorway all the way. Erm, anybody else interested for it, you said not didn't you. It's not to late to book I think it says something about surcharge after sixth of March or something on the form doesn't it? We'll make it . I don't think she was in no. . Right, does Saria had a form, she must cos you said she's booked, Peter have you g , Peter you've got forms have you? Don't think she has got a form, no, Alma have you got any spare forms for that. No, I think I've distributed them all, didn't I? Mm. We could get one from British Section couldn't we? You think, I thought you said she's booked, she hasn't booked. Oh no, she's definitely wants to go, but she hasn't actually filled out the form . Well, she's, she's going to it . Erm, yeah I think she said she'd get one directly. Erm. I think er, I guess that any individual members would get them in their, erm journal. Yes. I might, I might, yes, we, I, well, I'll, looks like it . I'm an individual member, perhaps I've done, got round to opening the . I'm not sure, I'm not sure, they, they have been there . That's possible . . Quite happy you know telephone them to send on Ah, right, well, we'll just check, yeah. Cos that's when, when, when we get to that nearer the date, we could, we could just, you know, when you're confirmed that you've been booked and you're definitely going, erm we could look at the finances and see how much we could afford to, to give, erm, something to each person to help with,eit either with the accommodation or, or the transport. Mm. Cos the accommodation is quite a bit, isn't it? It's fifty , sixty or more, probably more this time. No . Seventy six pounds . It's seventy six pounds . Mm. More of sixty five last year. Mm, yes. Erm. That's nice, I'm, it's very good that people are going anyway, it's got That's for the whole weekend Mm. . Mm. Erm, say anything about that? Well it's not sort of place you can get it to, before, before breakfast is it, so er, no. Mm. It's not, we, we have sometimes gone very early on a Saturday morning to places like Nottingham, but, it's not too far for that. Right, well that's good, erm, and, so in, in relation to the A G M erm we did, we were asked about putting in motion's erm, are you having to leave the one about the press after what John said? How do you feel?. One, what, one that we erm, one, yes, yes, but as a group why don't we review having another prisoner when we got When we got, when we got the next one yes certainly. Yeah , and then to see. Mm, mm, right and are we, I mean if anybody still wanted to put in a motion, there is still time just about. Yeah about , just about, yeah . But eh, you'd have to have it sort of written out and more or less ready I think to go. All groups are invited to send resolution which may or may not be actually debated but erm, we, we don't normally send one in, but some, some groups they send them in, no, no one 's thinking Think the closing dates a few days time isn't it? Thursday. Thursday, yeah. Oh, right, so it's very close. Got to be ready tonight, if they're to get it. No. Right, erm, so, I think, I think, as far as future events that's all what we need to mention? Now, erm Rose is secretary and she's had things through from er British Section Headquarters and she'll tell us what she's got there. Erm I don't know if this one concerns us, it's about er, a working group for children, do we have, we don't have a working group for children . No, we've never been very close to the now. I won't obviously . Erm, I've also received information from the Region, erm with lots of events that's coming up in the East Anglian Region, erm, just run through those quickly, er, there is a workshop on this Thursday at the Courts , erm, there is on Thursday twelfth of March there is er, somebody from the Columbian committee for human rights speaking at an open meeting, that's the fifth er, Wednesday first of April there is er somebody called Duncan , he's a paediatric surgeon who works part time as a volunteer at the Medical Foundation for the Care and Victims of Torture who will be speaking at St. Mary's and St. Edmunds group, and that, that's Bury St. Edmunds, and then the next East Anglia Regional Meeting is on Saturday May the twenty third at Bury St. Edmunds again. May twenty third? Yeah May the twenty third, it's a Saturday two to five pm at the Friends' Meeting House, Bury. Bank Holiday weekend isn't it? I don't know. That's all from Region. Er, I've also received minutes from the Epping Forest from Redbridge Group and they also have a lobbying workshop erm, that's on the second of March, and they're asking if anybody's interested in that. Is that an evening? It doesn't actually say I think it's but, er, probably would be. If you're interested could follow it up. They meet in, don't they meet in Leytonstone or was it Wanstead, somewhere in that area. Wanstead Mm, mm. was, was, where they help Islington. Monday mm. Would you be interested in it? Well I might this, this, the time fitting in with the families, they're, they're likely to come back to Okay, well I'll, I put some information not full details . Right. Erm, actually there wasn't a lot of detailed stuff, there was erm, materials for gr groups and winter sales Do you want to pass that over to Aida please? which we have a erm, there's a bit about release policy and procedures for local groups, er, groups can help their prisoner with mummy or other erm relief, erm on the Christmas family particularly and it's, it's explaining you know how they do it and the best ways to go about it. Mm, cos there's a special fund available for that, that's particularly why they anyway they explain all about it, if it would, if we need it. Er, there's a mandate workshop. Oh they, no, sorry,, they're offering still a mandate workshop for the group, erm, sending a trainer I'm the trainer. you're the trainer, oh well . I've been very bad on this recently, I've really been too busy or tired, but I have got, I have, today I have had arrived oh not today, the last few days, the new mandate workshop, so So you've got to read through it and let . I was gonna say, having spent some months or years well . It's all the new bits in about it, yes mind you, there's always, always been a mandate, the mandate workshop was the very first one that's produced, but this is an updated version and changes . Yeah, have there always been workshops , continue workshops on mandate or? Yes, there's always been a mandate workshop? Or just when there reviews? No, there's always been a mandate workshop, explaining why, you know, what our mandate is . You, you did give once to a group a few years ago. Yes, I've done the mandate workshop, yes, and I've done it with other groups too. Mm. So you've covered a bigger region in the past, not just Stortford. I, I have about five or six groups, I can, I can go and give talks . So even if we don't call on you to, do it, you won't be called . And I have a lobby workshop too. Amnesty's mandate what, what the don't do, or do do. Will there be any erm talking about lobbying, be in, in erm before and er . I don't know . Done any . . So the er lobbying workshops is the . That's why they're being cancelled Epping Forest and Redbridge are doing, erm, they've got some lobbying workshops Mm, presuming it's got that in mind Yeah, I mean he is . . Lobbying workshops would be that combined, erm there is er, a one page journalist leaflet which we can order a pound for a hundred, that's it, that's all our journalist friends . , yes that's , erm yeah, I, last month I received the er, this booklet on the trade and they seemed to be coming out to doing campaign on erm a collection between British training and goods, er and their use abroad erm, and they now, they've got a, a booking form for a fringe meeting at the A G M, if anyone's particularly interested attending. Shall I pass, shall we pass this one . . Yes, the report on this, this book. Yes,there are, there are feature on the, just highlighting a couple of case for these, I imagine a problem book Yeah. and, there is . It is a good book that I, I've read through that, it's quite an informative. It was in one of the Sunday . It's called the M S P, the Military Security Police, mm. Security . I could, seems to though they're getting stronger on this than . Mm, it's come to the front of the journal hasn't it section Yeah. mm. One, one er stress in my, on what happens so that, that it's companying it's been manufacturing leg irons that's been going out there to the Nile, hasn't it, wasn't it to . They didn't mention , they'd mentioned somewhere else, but erm Somewhere. I think it was Central America wasn't it? Wasn't it Saudi?. No. Saudi they had some sort of electronic torture chamber Thing electric was Oh yeah, the erm, the house of or something. Yeah. Wasn't one of the chair was, though the man held up, held arms was it? He wasn't an, I think he was . Oh, perhaps erm Got a number of . yes, mm, one wonders what a British company are doing manufacturing leg irons anyway in the twentieth century . No when you get to, when you get to the magazine, I'll see on the front cover . Yeah. It's not it's very . Right, anything else from Headquarters? Erm, I know there's a world conference at the assembly, central hall, Westminster, twenty second of February. It's Bury St. Edmunds interest in Asian we generally go if we've got an Asian prisoner, we haven't, perhaps it's of opinion . Sorry I missed that, Asian week. As conference, on the twenty second of February. Er raffle tickets, have a raffle ticket. . I'll give it to Peter, are you interested in that Peter, or . . Er this is erm, er this is the Spring, can't read out what it is, the Spring, this is the great Spring raffle, Amnesty does get quite a lot of money from the raffles, er they start off with just the Christmas one now we have them all through the year I think, . and they, the first prize is a thousand pounds cash, second prize family holiday cottage in the Isle of Mule and third prize holiday cottage in Norfolk and fourth prize holiday apartment in Cumbria and the, I mean the idea is you take a book and try, if you have a place of work or, or friends that will buy raffle tickets er just try and sell them and er, how much are they? er Fifty pence each. fifty pence each, right, erm, and er fill in the slips and either bring them back to us or send them off yourself to Headquarters, shall I put, I'll put those out for anybody who feel they could sell them, it all, it all helps to raise money for Amnesty and helps to get them erm spend the money on the new prisoner's. Yeah, I have a complimentary copy of new internationalist I'm not quite sure why they sent them, but It's on, it's on the right . Yes , it's, it's got stuff that we could use that's all. Mm. Er, the news letters we get, monthly news letter for groups, er, this one, which is all about what different groups in Britain are doing, can give you ideas . Were not gonna have , were not gonna have quite enough are we this time, I think if perhaps the people who come regularly, erm perhaps could take first, erm I don't know, you, we have ten, is it ten? Yeah, and I've taken one. Mm. . They are interesting, I mean then, they're, they're, got quite a lot of information on about what's going on Yeah within British Section Yeah. anyway. I'll erm, the International news letter which has lots of groups and details about people getting killed. Mm. What's going on . Erm, and then if anyone wants to look at these, look at the er ninety one annual reports Haven't seen them. and these booklets that are . Has that recently become ninety one, one? No, we had these two meetings ago, but I bring it with me on meetings for anyone who's . Yes, and people should tell you if they take it,mm, mm. Okay, that's all. Right, very good, that's all from Headquarters, right then we move on to then any other business, erm I think mainly it's just the odd verse with arrangements for next meeting, because our next meeting is our own A G M, erm, at, which we erm elect our officers for the next year, er, and there are, are other arrangements to make, erm we sometimes put a little form don't we on the end of the minutes that, people to fill in if they wish to nominate someone, I think we should do that even though very, very rarely gets actually filled in, erm, and we have some post which we have elections for others where we can phone the people who are doing those jobs and, and hope they'll carry on. And I think the, the erm, the jobs which are elected are the Chair Person and, do we still have a Vice Chair Person? are you still Vice Chair Person? I . Well John and I are both Chair Person, are Co-Chair at the moment, erm Yeah, we don't, we don't seem to have a Vice Chairman, looking at last years Perhaps, perhaps, perhaps it was because of that we didn't have it, and the treasurer and the secretary are officially erm, and we do have constitution don't we now of course, so we can look at the constitution and see what it says . erm, I think what those post were, were erm elected and then the Means we've got to produce . . Right, we, we, we did actually draw, or we not draw, we, we adopted a constitution during the year and the officers that are erm elected are the Chair, the Secretary and the Treasurer, erm and other, together with other such officers, yeah to to determine by general meeting, erm, so it's really only those three, er and we have sometimes had Advice Chair if there's only been one Chairman haven't we, one Chair person erm so I think people need to say if they don't wish to carry on the jobs they're doing and if anybody wishes to nominate anyone in a particular post then slip at the bottom of the minutes could be filled in and either brought to meeting or sent back to the Secretary. Erm, I think I will give up being Chair this time, I've done it too long, too long, and I've had it John as Co-Chair during the year and I hope that he'll be able to carry on as, as Chair Person, I think really I've done it, done it for long enough erm, and we'll have to ask, we hope, we hope the Treasurer just taken over will carry on . erm, and if anybody else has any other post they, they're interesting in doing in taking on or, or would like to help with that could be said as well couldn't it? Well are we then not going to have another Co-Chair? Well it depends how you want to deal with it, I mean erm, this, the, the, the I think it was just my idea last year of, of sort of erm sharing some of the load I think at that point and hoping that someone could perhaps take over, erm, this just says the following should be elected, A, Chair, B, Secretary and C, Treasurer, but erm Well, I, will, you know, I mean, will carry on as Chairman, but I, I'd welcome competition in the post if anyone's interested . but, it's unfair saying that I erm, I,continue in my inefficient way if you're all willing to put up with me. I think if, if you are going to be the only Chair Person then there should be a, there, there should be a, a Deputy so if you're not able to take the chair, there is somebody else . Perhaps, yeah, yeah, yeah , erm Somebody could perhaps sat and Perhaps that's that's a good idea . that, that person ought to be elected as well. Mm, what under, that'll be a what Vice Chairman or Well was to be Chairman, was to be Vice Chair now under these this new . Is it in the constitution? It isn't in the constitution, no. No it isn't is it? . No, but you . Mm. Not, not very good at drawing up constitutions are we? It does actually say together with other said officers and committee members as shall be determined by a general meeting, so if we wish to elect or choose somebody else we can do. Erm, but there's be a good idea to have She's taken someone's . Well I think, we'll, we'll see what, we'll see what comes, if somebody else wishes to compete, compete for the Chair, the post of Chair, erm, then you may perhaps like to invite them to share the Chair with you, or, or, they can become the, the Vice Chair. Erm, erm, only too willing to welcome competition cos they're all to aware of my short comings, mm. Mm. Erm, so. Well, if, if there isn't anybody else who wishes to compete with you for the Chair, er, then I think there ought to be a Vice Chair. Yeah. Right. Now the other thing about, about the meeting is erm, we sometimes arrange for sort of special refreshments or something different in that line, it's at Ann's house, erm do you want, do you want us to do anything about that Ann or? Yeah, interested in any spare wine glasses please. Sorry? Bring some spare wine glasses, I've , I've got some wine glasses. Wine glasses What we have, wine and soft drinks and What you want six? Cheese and biscuits? A little bit of that yes, to have afterwards mm? . Cracker wheat. Cheese . Cheese and biscuits, she's saying. What do, do you want help with that Ann, would you like people to bring some or, or, or what? . Mm, well confir you can confirm with Mary, I think Mary's offer to possibly. Shall I, shall I leave you and Mary to sort that out? Okay. Between you, mm, mm. What date is it?. I'm not sure what date it is, I haven't got it on here have we really. Is it the tenth? No the eleventh. The tenth. Yes, it's not going to be the same day because it's a leap year. It's the tenth then . So it'll be what, what did we say the tenth what did we? Mm. Right. Tenth of March. Tenth of March. Where's that then? That'll be at erm Ann I've forgotten your number . . That's fine, what's the address? Oh sorry , ninety four. . Is this all . Oh yeah. Yeah.. Get rid of that on tape, yeah,we won't be transcribed. Why you writing it down for? So, that the next meeting. Right, that's, good, that's it , without, without your tape recorder. . Right, erm, so, now that's, that's er the A G M, now erm, any other business? . Right, let see, erm, er, who's got their notes? Ann, did you say yes? I said yes. Right, Ann, you gonna start? Well, this, I told you about this French boy that phoned, that contacted me, he's erm,my name is , I'm nineteen, I'm a student at Harlow College, I'm studying English foreign language and Law A Level, if there's an Amnesty International I would like to set up a group in the college I hope you're involved in local groups are writing you to receive about me,and information about the local group . So I well I sent him er our sheets, er sheet about the group and the minutes and er I contacted Michael er, who said he'll be very happy to help in, so I er phoned up this chap and said, gave him Michael's number and said erm he'd like to come to this meeting tonight, he said yes, so I went to pick him up and I just couldn't find that blinking house, anyone who knows Harlow, he's in Parsonage Leys, I just couldn't find the number it was , I just couldn't find anything less than thirty seven . and I had, got pick up two so I, I just had to give up, I phoned him up when I got here, apologise, he hasn't been in touch with Michael yet, I don't know why not, er, though why, er sorry Erm, there used to be . Sorry, there used to be a group at the College I think. Yes, yes. Well there used to be that's right,with you John,talking about college group just about that time . Erm yes and it's, it's funny thing I haven't sent things to the College with, with the other stuff that went out, but, er we have, I have spoken to Michael about College, yeah I mean . So we didn't, yeah well if we've got someone's who's interested in starting a group, that's the time which to start, we did, yeah, but there was a group, er previous thing but I think that, there was one girl who was very er keen, but I think when she left it probably lapsed. Mm, But. yeah, yeah, I did, did discuss it with Michael, I'd forgotten that, I just remembered now . Maybe, maybe I don't know if he's shy or anything, why he hasn't phoned up Michael yet, perhaps I ought to ask Michael to phone him then, he does , yes. Maybe, yes , we have, we have approved school or er student group officer so we should perhaps let him you know, perhaps we should, perhaps we should come back to him or Michael could. Mm. Well, shouldn't, shall I Should imagine, mm. take that number from you, cos I'll, I'm probably going, probably be seeing Michael this week,. Do you want the letter?. Yes, okay. Right, that's fine, well I, that would be very good if there was a group at the coll at the coll at the college, there ought to be one at the college Mm. of all, of all the Mm. you know. Oh, he's only, he's only there till September till Oh, great. he's only there till the Summer, by the way. Yes, well perhaps we could get it going quickly then . Right, erm, now, er, do you want to say something? I did, yes, erm, when erm, we thought our prisoner was finished the co-ordinators wrote to me and said would I be interested, would our group be interested in erm, writing to Yugoslavia's still, because with the Civil War going on there's lots of cases coming up, for example there was a whole hospital full of patients that were taken prisoner I don't know if they were actually physically removed or whether they were held in the hospital without access to medical treatment for something like ten days, and erm, Saria did say she'd help me last time and I wrote back and said yes, two of us could write once a month, well they're taken that very liberally and, and, got two or three things from the already and erm, if anyone else is interested in writing an odd letter say once a month to Yugoslavia maybe they could erm, let me know later on.. Good, that's fine, right, any other business? Shall we have just a quick Lisa and Dean want to tell us what's going, cos they've had you, had the first meeting now, haven't you? Do you want to tell us what interest there was. I, I was about to ask the same thing, yeah . Are you going to,interest . Well I called a meeting but I didn't think I advertised it well enough because there was a lot of interest and then I think we held it at the wrong time as well didn't we, Mm. we held it after prep, so we've organised another one for tomorrow lunch time and erm and lot more people express interest because of that, we haven't actually got any letters yet. No, that's so when we leave there should be more interest. Mm, mm, good, good. And I'm intending to, to hold a few more assemblies as well to sort of get interest going again because it's been a while since we did an assembly on it, so if we do another one, that usually gets it going again doesn't it? What you run assembly's with on, particular topic then. Yeah , well we'll take erm Michael gave us say erm a, an assembly sheet didn't he and we just read from that, and that got a lot of interest from that. Yeah Mm, good How many teams were suppose to meet out of that? It was about twelve people. How many is that? . There were a lot more people than that. That was last week. I was gonna say, there were a lot more people when we went to school. There are a lot more people than that, there, I only put one advert . Well that's, that's, lot more people who are interested . Right. Even so, that tell us . Ah right, well yeah, I suppose Advertise in Stortford Twelve is a working number. Oh well I hope, I hope it goes right tomorrow. Yes. Yes, good, good, just keep in touch with us and know how things are going. Yeah. Are you, you keen to keep in touch keep, keep coming to the meetings or? Yeah, mm, mm. Yeah. You found it's contact, yeah, good, erm Right, now, erm smashing. anything else you want to bring up? Erm. Yeah. Right, Rose, next leave your bit. Oh, I, I got something right come on. Go on Rose. Yes, I had a request from speaker at Birchwood High School and have a name of somebody there, I think it's a teacher or pupil but A lot of people would say . Did you send it out to them Rose? you know when we did that . Yeah, I think I do, yeah Birchwood . That was Margaret Dane, what it was, yes. Yeah. the name of the person is Linda er What, what, was it a request for a speaker? Yeah. Yeah, right why have they sent that to you? Yeah, cos Michael's name went off to that batch that was sent out. You know there,, I, I wasn't actually in, but that was the message I got so. Cos you see, perhaps it didn't get to that teacher, you see, that's what happens, the letters don't always get to the right people. Yeah, mm Although What's the name? Linda . Mm, I've got a Mr, head of Humanities Mr I . There we go, so who, who is, this person is I don't know, that's their name I have now, that's a . Yeah,. So that'll be a speaker day . Okay. . Will, will you follow that up? You, you've got the name of the person have you? Erm,shout that out again and Erm, Birchwood high school. No, the, the, I've got all that Linda Linda , yeah. Yes, it'll be worth following that up, cos that's, that's one of the erm, they, they've done quite a lot of work of Amnesty and general studies in the past, there was a sheet of sort of quotes of, how good the Amnesty was, and there was one from the teacher at Birchwood or what, what's Margaret Dane School, so erm, yes, if, if you could definitely follow that up erm John Yeah. cos that'll be a very useful school to have interest . Erm. Erm I also have a letter er from a Kate , I'm not sure from which school she goes to, but she's fourteen and she's going to one of the local schools, Mm. but, erm, she was hoping to come to the meeting this evening, but she phoned at the last minute and said she couldn't make it, but erm, I don't know if it would be more appropriate perhaps for the schools groups to get in touch with her and I Did she leave her name and . Er, yes, but I, it's at home. Yes, could you, perhaps you could find out which school she's at Yes, okay. Erm. could give her a ring, find out what school she's at and then And then if, if it's fine with her, we'd have some, well you'd let you know,contact , what's the time . Alright, yeah, okay. Right. Because it's, I mean it would be very good if we could have several schools Yeah. interested. Er have you got, all these people waiting to be told . . Right, I hope, we won't be to long now, perhaps if we could just bring up the item you wanted to mention. Yeah, erm, right, yeah, that's all the other items, erm what's been er been going through my head recently is, is er the, looking at the pattern of the meetings and the way the meetings are arranged and, and how, erm, at the last meeting we had a speaker er and that I think, we all found that quite interesting and the one, one from Central America that things and I feel we ought to have that much more frequently than we do have er, a, either a speaker or a focus of some sort of meetings erm, so I think that's something I'd like to raise and get the A G M at the next meeting I think similar thing we ought to consider there. Erm, quite how we arrange cos this, as Margaret says there's a lot of business to get through on occasions, but er, this, this meeting seems to had a lot, but, you know, er whether we could alternate er a business meeting with a, a, a speaker so I thought functional meeting every two months and a speaker attending er, er the other month, erm, I'm really sussing it open for ideas, what, what do other people feel and Maybe we should have speaker on a separate night . mm, well, this, or is everybody happy with the, the format as it is? er. Is it not but er Yeah. Speaker's a very good idea, but difficult to organise, Mm. I think a, every so often it'll be very interesting, very sort of, we did try this once didn't we? This, this has cropped up before, oh yes this idea of trying to change this . Michael , Michael started the ball rolling in my mind, er, yes he, he, I, one thing erm yesterday, erm one thing he, he started to coming to more meetings last year and erm I think he'd seen one or two people come along and not, Mm. a couple of new people come along and then, not, not follow up Yes, there can be. mm, erm, and he wh you know he is thinking well is this, is that the reason erm, so er, I don't know, you know, er, I, I think perhaps it's worth looking at, perhaps we can all thing about it and have a look at it at the A G M. I think, I think it would be a good idea to have, as every sort of maybe every two or three meetings to have something a bit different erm, and we do, we do find if we want to get through the business quickly We can. we can, we can. We can. pressure. We can do, we've just got to, I mean we've just got to ask everyone to give a very brief report erm on another occasion and then it can be kept very short, I think though, there are, there are times when, when, you know, we do want to hear what's going on with sort of er networks and campaigns, we do need that time as well don't we, er so we can't, I don't think we can always do it. Well I'm, yeah, ern I wondered about sort of Executive Committee and er, I know you're not very keen on that idea and it, it does tend to remove information from the ordinary members, if, if, you have a small group of people dealing with the business and, a, a separate lead. We have had that in the past haven't we? We I can't remember. Remember we used to have a prisoner group didn't we, when I first came so that the What groups, yeah groups for particular things on, on the, you know like campaigns or prisoners there were special groups dealing only with this those, they met on there own, not there weren't any Schools groups. yes, the schools group, yes, I mean, that, that could operate more, in fact we could have, instead of having just talking about the, about the India one, er instead of having one person at it, it could be a group of, of three perhaps, er . But then they'd still presumably report back to the main group about what they'd been doing. Yes . Yes. So you're really, in a way, you're not much difference than where you started. I think Margaret's right, if, if we really want to get through the business we can and however busy we are, erm . I wouldn't we wouldn't to every time, but I mean it can be, it can be just a very brief report on what's happened, you know, if we want to get through. If we said, like, if we, every second month say or every third month, then we, we knew we were going to have a speaker, we could the time before we could then do the business more thoroughly and carefully so that the month of the speaker we could just go through it very quickly . . Alternatively to, alternative to, to speaker, can we get erm, you know, brief films about different countries and, political systems and so on. Mm. Yes, yes we have the video too, we have, we have the erm the Amnesty video and we, there are, there are schools videos to. Do, do, do they do different videos for different countries? Not, they're not, no, the one I've, the one the group has is, is a general one it's on Amnesty's work . Oh, I see . Yeah, yeah, there probably are ones on different countries. I'm not sure that Amnesty does produce on, on, one particular country. erm, we have. other organisations that Yes they might, yes, mm. Though even that's the sort of thing that on T V that er We can video ourselves. that's right. Mm,, mm. Yeah. Yes, there are a lot, mm There's all these workshops Margaret. Yes, I, I, I have about twelve workshops. . On all kinds of things. . On all kinds of things, yes. I enjoyed that very much that last one. What was that one? What was that one? it was about death penalty wasn't it? . there's all sorts like, like recruiting, making contact with the schools, er, lobbying, er, there, there about ten or twelve different workshops now, almost on almost every aspects, so and that would be something that we could give, if, if these weren't . But there has to be one guarantee in because I think once we had rather good one, about six people kept, you can never tell how many come, I mean you'd want maybe bigger, more than, more space in this room. Well, we've, have got another room maybe we might sometimes be able to use haven't we? Well we could use the . Or your dining room, yes. it's probably better that Mm, we often need to use one more than one room for those. Mm. Mm. Though we do seem to be doing quite well in numbers. Yes, we have lately, yes. Better than last year. That suddenly, I mean it means you divide into smaller groups quite often, and, and have discussions on you can, yeah.. Speak on what you've got. No, might be my speech, do we need a, meet, meet in a more public place, erm. No, no, we can't. . But you, erm . Yes, yes, you, you. Erm, your business would take care of itself if we have that pressure of booking it,. I honestly think it would. I think if anything, I'm sure it would. Yeah, mm, sure. I think. I'm sure that it would make us more careful the months before. Mm, mm. Right, going on the streets think it would, going to find that many people that, that could speak to That was erm, sort of relative. Yeah, that, that needs something if you actually set up a system and then a business meeting one month and a speaker the next, it puts a lot of pressure on one of us or some of us to, to , erm, this is true. Maybe, maybe, maybe if, I think it sounds as if people would, would like that, you know, at least every few months perhaps to have something different Yes. maybe, maybe, people could just be thinking or, you know if they hear of somebody who might be able to come and give a talk like your friend who, who was very good, erm, you know, we could make a note of it and, or ask people, you know, could talk to talk or something that sort. Mm, mm, that sounds a possibility, I think, I think it is interesting to have someone like that you know Mm. Like we had you know, who could talk about experiences you know, in a, in a particular country where there are human rights and problems, good. Right erm, so that's it, is that all the . business? Yes, just, just, remind people the next, the next meeting erm, is Tuesday the tenth of March, we always meet on a Tuesday evening and it will be at Ann's house in Harlow, which is , said on the tape . Must be of benefit. . Right, er, people can take what bits from tables they want them, or, I've got s , I've got one put out, erm, shall we open that door a bit, it's getting a bit hot in here, erm, don't know if Mary wants any help out there. Good. Testing, testing. Okay right, so what we've been looking at this week is trade in agricultural commodities, and er, possibly a little bit of GATT as well. And I believe Bob has asked you to er, I think, collect some data erm, on trade in wheat and cotton erm, as an example. We'll come on to that a bit later on. But can you just give me, sort of, a brief overview of what's happened to the composition of world trade right, say over the last hundred years or so. What have been the main features? Well the er, proportion agricultural trade has decreased. Right, correct, okay, erm what absolute, the absolute values of trade. So the relative share of agricultural trade has declined, the relative share of manufacturing trade has increased. How about in absolute terms? It's increased. Yes, that's right. All trade has increased. Why, why has trade in all commodities, agricultural or non-agricultural increased? Better transport links. Okay, how does that affect trade? Well it's easier to transport things overseas or wherever. Also storage is easier, improving Right, super, anything else? Population growth. Yes, populations have, have increased. Technology. Yep, I mean that might in a sense Yes, we're gonna get Transport technology has er, certainly er, certainly improved. Right, okay, so, in ge in general, we can say that world trade has risen over time due to essentially, well, is that, is there anything else that? more countries have er, a big surplus, and more countries having a big deficit in food supply Yes so therefore so that says something about specialization of production possibly, that countries are now more highly specialized than they once were. Yep, I mean, that in a way is a function of, leagues with which international trade can be conducted. You know, if you, if international trade is very difficult as it was, say two hundred years ago, then you've got to be self sufficient. Whereas, erm, you can now exploit individual countries comparative advantage of this trade erm, is, is rel is relatively er, is relatively easy. Are there any other factors, that might have increased, for an incre might have led to an increase in world trade? Rising population, improving transport and technologies. I know this might sound obscure, but erm, I read somewhere when that erm, if you actually bring in protectionism, it sounds like it could actually increase trade. If you bring in protectionism? Don't know how it worked, as in As of, liberalize, or if you increase No, if you actually, you know, if you have a little protectionism, it does actually lead to an increase in trade, but I don't know how that works. Neither do I. No it doesn't, you know it doesn't. I really didn't expect Right, okay, let's say that's a new one on me. Okay. Well, we'll come onto protectionism in er, in a minute. What other factors, there's a big, this fact that we're missing, alright, rising population, improvements in transport and technology, what else has happened over the last hundred years? Increased consumption. Yes, that's right, or right Income. Yes, income, that's right, incomes have risen, er, and as a result we're consuming more goods, consuming more goods it, it followed, well not automatically, but there's a likelihood that trade will also, will also rise. Okay, so, that's, they're the reasons to account for the rise in absolute values of er, trade in all commodities, what about erm, why has the er, trade in manufactures er, increased as a proportion of total trade? I mean, it's not divorced from the things that we've just been talking about Well, cos incomes have risen so, there's more consumption Okay. Specialization as well, er Good right okay, I mean, what income elasticities of demand for Higher for manufactured goods, or high relative to agricultural goods Okay, so, because income elasticities of demand are generally high for manufactured goods as the world economy gets richer, it will want to consume proportionately more of those. Right, now, we could all become self sufficient, alright. But why don't we be become more self sufficient? You know, we can produc we could consume a lot more manufactured goods, but that doesn't necessarily mean that trade will rise. It's likely that trade will rise, but it doesn't automatically follow. What's also happened to trade in manufactures? It's specialized That's right, okay. to, well, produce constant Yes, that's right, you've got because the, the market for er, any one say manufactured goods, in theory could be a, a world market now because there are relatively cheap methods of transporting this er, this particular good. What's happened is because the potential market has risen, firms have specialized. Alright, and this is why we get, erm, cars are an excellent example of this erm. You know, Toyota, Toyota's plant down the road in Derby, massive investment, erm, a huge production capacity. That makes all the Toyota Corollas, or whatever, not only for the U K, or for Europe, but for all, all, all sales of car throughout, of that particular type of car, throughout the world. You know, and even in erm, Japan, they're importing the, the products that are made, made over in Derby. Why're they doing that? It's because manufacturing production erm, or this great scope in manufacturing production for economies of scale. Alright, this is why countries have specialized more, because countries specialize more and consumers want to demand,want to consume erm, higher quantities of er, manufactured goods. Alright. Trade automatically follows therefore. Right, we need the specialization and er, the sort of demand elasticity erm, in that argument to suggest that world tra to explain why world trade has risen. What else, before we come on to agricultural products,what, are there any other notable features of trade in manufactures? Alright, it has risen, right, risen very dramatically erm well, let's try and rephrase this, erm, what's another major reason for the growth of manufacturing trade? Manufacturing trade is, seems to have grown very rapidly, not only because we're producing erm, or con consuming more of a, a particular commodity, but also because consumers like Opportunities in taste. Changes in taste, yes consumers like Consumers like to have variety. yes, consumers want more, more variety, as well as just more, more consumption, and this is why, you know, although we produce cars just about in, in the U K, we still import a lot of cars to the U K. What's that, what's the process of erm, simultaneous import and export of the same commodity, what's that called? Erm, intra, intra-industry trade. Yes, intra-industry trade. And that's the simultaneous import and export of essentially similar products. Alright, now, they're not exactly the same products, but they are very similar. You know, erm, as far as the statistics might go, you know, a car is a car is a car. So you lump them all together, but we know as consumers, that, the Skoda is inherently different to the Lamborghini or something, alright. Excuse me. Hello, Tim speaking. Hello Marina. Very well thanks, and yourself? Right Mhm essentially yeah, use it as a, erm, as a motivation for the, for the tutorial erm,partic particularly the, the first part of it, talking about GATT, sort of erm, the er, sort of characteristics of trade, how it's changed, indication of protectionism. No, no they don't. Well, yes it should, it should be, and there's some good figures in there that you may want to tell the students about, and then what I would do is recommend that they have a look at it because the current issue. That came out of the Current Issues in Agricultural Economics book. Alright, if you tell them erm, that's where it came from, there are copies in the library, it might be a good idea that they have a look at it. Alright? That's it, that's o that's okay, I don't think there's anything else, okay, yes, okay, cheerio, then Marina, bye . Right,erm, yes, so,inder intra-industry trade is growing very, very rapidly and that, and this is, sort of the main, one of the main reasons why trade in manufactures has grown rapidly, rapidly. Why's intra-indu intra, intra-industry trade grown? Well, as consumers, we like to er, consume differentiated products, right. Manufactured goods are easily differentiated, right, you've only got to bung power steering on a car, or a few go, go faster stripes and you have you know, sort of, to the consumer, a different product. Right, although it is still a car, it's, it has different attributes. Alright, so there's plenty of scope for differentiation, product differentiation. And also, erm, there's great scope for economies of scale er, in manufactured goods, therefore consumers can benefit, right from er, exploiting the comparative advantage in particular, in particular countries. Production tends to be focused on very large plants, erm, and each plant will produce erm, a particular good for the whole world market and so therefore trade must, must increase. So, perhaps those explanations might account for declining er, relative share in agriculture as well as the increasing share of manufactured goods, because the other side of that coin is, well, income elasticities of demand for agricultural goods is less than unity so there's a de declining sector aspect there, erm, is it easy to differentiate agricultural products? Very difficult. Right, it's not impossible because what tends to happen is that you can erm, you can change the product mix of what the consumer receives. Instead of him just buying purely the raw commodity, you can er, change the, the degree of processing erm, the quality of, of the product, erm, so there is some scope for different product differentiation, but certainly not the same scope that there is in manufactures. Do you think the scope has increased because of erm, packaging or whatever? Mm, I mean that's, it's, you know, a potato is a potato is a potato, in, you know in commodity terms, but you know, you can change the way the, the product by attaching lots of services to that raw food product, and that's where the scope for differentiation comes from, it's the, the combination of attributes in er, agricultural goods so you've T V dinners and all the rest of it. Erm, how about economies of scale, you said that was important the increase in manufacturing trade, you know, implies that products will be produced at a lower unit value, and therefore benefit consumers and er, therefore increase his trade cos consumers will buy the cheapest product if that comes from abroad, so be it. So what about economies of scale in agriculture? Do you think there are economies of scale to the same extent? No. Why, why not? It's more perfectly competitive, isn't it, I mean it's produced say, the scope for it is less because it's on a smaller scale in general. Mm, that's right, I mean the fact that agriculture tends to be perfectly com right, why there tends to be a lot of independent small producers is because there are no economies of scale, you know, apart from beyond, you know, a certain size of farm, you know,stud studies in the U K show that once you get, get beyond about two thousand hectares there are, there are significant dis-economies of scale, and although there are economies of scale up to that point, and that's only in the case of very specialist types of production, by and large once you've got a farm in excess of five hundred hectares, erm, you start to run into dis-economy, and mostly managerial dis-economies of scale. That's not the same er, well that's not the case with erm, with things like car man car manufacturing. I mean we can Toyota can produce, you know, sufficient Corollas or whatever it is that they make at Derby erm, to sat to satisfy the whole of the world market for that particular car, just from one plant. And that one plant occupies about sort of, one hundred and fifty hectares or something like that. If you wanted to erm, er, satisfy the demand for a particular food commodity you'd need erm, an area equivalent to the six biggest states in America. Clearly,that's not feasible. There's a geographical dimension involved in agricultural production, that leads to dis-economies of scale. Alright, and er, essentially land is the constraining, the constraining factor. Right, because we need land to produce food, more so than we need land to produce cars or tape recorders or whatever that sort of militates against economies of scale, and that's why we have erm, a large number of relatively small producers in this country and throughout the world. Erm, it's because you need land, and er, the bigger the area of land you've got, the more time it takes to get your combine harvester from one side to the other er, and so on and so forth. So, the optimal size of plant in agriculture is very, very small compared to the optimal size of plant in manufacturing. Okay, and that could be another reason why international trade, erm, has, had declined relatively in agriculture. Now anything else that may have accounted for the erm, decline of agricultural trade, and the increase in manufacturing trade? Because of erm, protection policies, Mm Like erm, the C A P in France. That's right, I mean protectionism in agricultural goods has risen, particularly since er, in the last fifty years. Risen dramatically, whereas in the same period, protectionism on manufactured goods has generally er, fallen, alright. So protectionism is probably quite important erm, reason. Why, why erm, does protectionism reduce trade? Reduces the erm, extra erm, revenue you can get from exporting or, or it intro increases the cost of importing Okay, yes, that's, that's one reason, yes. Reduced through retaliation. Okay, yes, leads to retaliation, anything else? Leads to loss of market. Mm, yes, leads to loss of market, you know. If we're self sufficient due to a policy that subsidizes our farmers, we're not going to want to import anything. So those are all reasons why trade in agricultural goods may have fallen, is protectionism in ari agriculture is second to none. There's no industry that's erm, as heavily protected as er, as agriculture on a world scale. Okay, so what, so what other effects does protectionism have? It reduces er, trade in agricultural goods, anything else? What about prices of agricultural goods. They go up. Sorry, sorry what? Prices of, on the world market. Right they'd certainly go up in the domestic Yes erm, domestic country, or the country where the protectionism is in place. Well, that must reduce trade as well, cos if, if prices are high in the domestic market, they're not going to want to sell them in another market are they? No, yes, that's very, very true, and that's the effect of protectionism, is to increase self sufficiency. Alright, however, if you want to sell. Yes, it increases self sufficiency, what about the prices of agricultural goods on the world market? The size of the world market in agricultural erm, goods and the volatility of prices on the world market? Aren't agricultural prices subsidized twice, they're subsidized to the farmers, so the farmer gets X for growing it which increases the price automatically on the market, but aren't they subsidized so they can be sold abroad? Yes, that's, that's true. So that's well, before we can go in, launch into this, I mean it's often said that erm, er, well, one of the major reasons why agricultural commodity trade hasn't been included in GATT, like virtually every other er, product has been, is because governments are saying, look this is a domestic policy, it's got nothing to do with international trade, we're supporting our farmers, it's a domestic policy. It doesn't, you know, it doesn't have anything to do with trade. Now, clearly that's a very naive way of looking at er, protectionism. But that's the main argument why agricultural policies have been allowed to increase in their severity, rather than erm, fall. That makes no sense, because they're selling that product abroad, the farm product, many of them are. They might be, they might be, yes. If they are selling it abroad, it's international though. Mm, ah yes, you can't, any domestic policy has international ramifications, if it affects er, resource allocation and, and demand and agricultural protectionism, like any protectionism will, will er, will reallocate resources, not according to comparative advantage, but according to some erm, some priority, we want to support our agriculture, therefore we'll erm, give agricultural producers a lot of money. Now, clearly that's going to dis distort trade because, if we're increasing domestic production Come in, ah, hi Mervin. Sorry, you alright for tomorrow? Yes, I can go to the lecture, but I'm teaching at eleven like yourself. I'll er, I'll see you if Win's free at, at eleven. Yes, yes, I've been to se I've a couple of people up to sort of promise a hand Yes, is, is, is Tony, is Tony er, busy as well? Tony's got a le meeting at ten thirty. Ah, which won't finish Fortunately I wasn't expecting to be lecturing, but er, Right I've had to lecture for Paul right, well we'll sort, we'll sort something out, but I'll see if Winnie's, I'll see if Winnie's available. Yes, yes, I'm sorry about that, yes, yes, okay. I mean if the worst comes to the worst, we'll sort of, cancel a lecture, or something Ah, well, it's only a matter of giving them a cup of coffee afterwards. Right, okay, I'm sure we can go, we can look after, we can get Robert in or something Yes, that's right we just get, just grab a couple of people. Sorry to disrupt your class. That's okay, I'll, I'll sort it out anyway, later this afternoon, yes, yes that's right, yes that's it Okay, ten o'clock, eight thirty nine. Do you want me to introduce us? Yes, if, if you want to, just to let the students know Sure, yes who he is, and why he's there. That's, that's grand, thanks, Melvin, cheers. yes, yes, okay, thanks for everything. Erm, right, where was I? Yes, so domestic policies, you know, can not be viewed at in isolation, right. All domestic policies will have international implications okay, and it's something that er, governments tend to erm, sort of over overlook when they're arguing the agriculturalists case in, in GATT. Then don't you think given that case, we should set up a whole inter international thing, which oversees all the governments? Well that's what GATT is really. That's what, you know, that's why agriculture is trying to be, sort of er, subsumed within the GATT. Yes, but it's failed. Well, it's, it's failed at the moment, but as, you know, if you've seen on television, or read a paper lately, you know, you've got ten days to go before erm, you know, if we're going to get a GATT agreement, you've got ten days to, to negotiate it in. Ten days to Er, yes, yes, that's right. There's a lot of brinkmanship going on at the moment, a lot of er, horse-trading I dare say, going on as well. Erm, but er, okay. Erm er, okey-doke, domestic policies will affect world, world market. It's likely, will world market prices fall? Or rise as a result of protectionism? Rise. Why might, why might they rise? Because they cost more. What costs more? Erm panic It may not do You know what tends to happen, is that world prices fall, alright, in the presence of protectionism. Alright, because what you're doing, is that you're increasing domestic production. Right now it serves its purpose, and increasing domestic production is going to increase world production, if there's more supply, prices will fall, if everything else stays the same. So what tends to happen is that world, world agricultural prices fall, right, and that trend has been observed erm, er, it's an im empiric empirically, agricultural product prices tend to have fallen in general sort of, over the last sort of, eighteen hundred years. Yes. So that, erm, the fact that you're increasing erm, protection, protectionism against it, isn't it likely to upset the producers who are exporting it, and who say it's no point exporting it there cos we're going to get erm, huge thing put on our things and we're not going to sell that much, it might be better just sell in our own country, isn't that reduce world tr No, no eventually, protectionism will, will lead to a cessation of production in the most efficient er regions of the world which by and large, are the, are the regions that sell onto the world market. It's only the inefficient producers that support their agricultures, because it's those inefficient producers that need support, erm, so, in the, in the long run, world supply, world supply will contract, but in the short run, you know, farmers in these er, efficient countries of the world may well erm, continue in production because they may, may be able to cut their average variable costs, it's only when in, in the long run, you know, providing farmers can cover their average variable costs, they'll continue in production in the short run. Right, in the long run, they've got to cover all their costs, right, they will be driven out of business, but that may take some time. Alright, so in, in the short run, because more is being produced, alright, and demand has been increased very much, or in world terms, then market prices will fall. All market prices will fall. And world market prices also tend to fall because these erm sort of protectionist programmes are often too successful, so not only do we reach self sufficiency, but you reach the status of net exporter. Now, for net exporting, for a net exporter, so our production exceeds our own consumption, how the hell do we er, how the hell do we get rid of it? Do we just burn it? Or do we dump it? What tends to happen is that domestic agricultural production has already been subsidized, alright, it's subsidized again, only to, to be sold on the world market. The world market becomes a residual, a residual market as a result, erm, you know, because we're dumping cheap products, you know, and the, the only way we can sell European grain right is to, is to undercut the world market. Now, because we're a major player in, in grain markets and most other markets, the European Community, increasing its supply on the world market will have a non-trivial effect on price. Prices will come down, right. Erm that's what we observe, is that protectionism leads to a lowering of world, world prices. What about the volatility? Does protectionism have an affect on volatility do you think? Right, think of it like this, if, if all countries of the world, right, engage in free trade, there is no protection. Alright. Then, the world market, alright, is, is the, is the world, is the world market. Everybody trades through this, through this world, world market. As a result, if there's a say, bad weather in the northern hemisphere affecting supply, right, that may well be offset by good weather, or average weather in the southern hemisphere, right. As a result, erm, prices won't be quite as volatile as they are in the opposite case, alright, when the world market, and virtually nobody, let's assume that virtually nobody uses the world market to trade in, they've all got their own agricultural policies, right, just a few countries trade in the world market, it only takes erm, a, a sort of poor harvest, or a very good harvest in any one of these erm, er, sort of protected countries, in order to get rid of this output, they'll put it on the world market. Because the world market is very, very tiny now, because nobody uses it, that will have a massive effect on, on world prices. So what you tend to observe is that when protectionism, when everybody protects, or when a lot of people protects, the world market erm, becomes a sink right, for any excess production. Right, it becomes a residual market, right. You know, if you can't sell it at home, you know, you get rid of it on the world market. Now, if the world market is very small, then The term world market is a bit of a misnomer when er, when most countries protect. The world market becomes very, very volatile and er, so protectionism tends to lead to erm, to price volatility and this is one reason why agricultural markets are so volatile. Right, it's, it's because world markets are residual markets because there's so much agricultural protectionism. Okay. Right,erm, why bother, why bother about agricultural trade? Marlon, why're we all het up about, about agricultural protectionism? What are we going to live on? Sorry? If we don't live off agricultural trade, what are we going to live on? We have to keep the track all turned on. I mean, vital to life Well yes, but it only represents two percent of G D P in this country it's, it's insignificant. Ah, that's the thing, it's not insignificant. Because if you stop agricultural production, you're going to be in big trouble. Right, okay. Why might we, we be in big trouble if it's a problem? What, what you going to eat? Well, could we not import? Exactly, and then if the world broke, world war breaks out? Okay, so there, there is this strategic argument. Okay, but why do we get the, the main thrust of erm, to the economic argument seems to be that we ought to be liberalizing, we ought to be facing that erm, that problem. You know, that problem isn't the most important one. Why, why do we want to liberalize world trade? So we can reduce the prices that we have to pay for everything. You know, beef and things that we have to import from the E C at the moment, we could import from like, New Zealand. It's far away but it's a lot cheaper to produce. Okay, so consumers would benefit erm, from liberalization. Presumably, also tax payers would erm, tax payer cost of er, the Common Agricultural Policies is substantial, and most the support comes from er, most of the support under the Common Agricultural Policy is given er, in terms of higher food prices that consumers pay. There is a different n there is also however, a tax payer burden in that some of our taxes that we pay to go erm, into agricultural support, I mean V A T for example. Virtually all of V A T goes to , you know. You know, you pay V A T on everything, er, so consumers would benefit, alright, in er, protecting countries, tax payers should benefit in protected countries. Any other beneficiaries? Developing countries may now find a market. That's right, so implications there for developing countries, who are typically very dependent on agricultural exports as a source of export earnings. It's through foreign exchange earnings that they can develop. Right, if you're cutting off their, their lifeline to development, you're probably sowing the seeds of er, of disaster further down the line. It's not only the developing countries that are dependent upon agricultural exports, New Zealand, Australia, Argentina, other what you might not call developing countries, are also erm, reliant upon, is reliant upon agricultural trade. So, who, who are the beneficiaries, are there, are there any beneficiaries at the moment of liberalization? Clearly farmers in protecting countries benefit,any anybody else that benefits? From protectionism? Mm say if you're on the world, if you, if you're a net importer, right, erm, and you're buying your food commodities from the world market, you must have been rubbing your hands over the last fifty years cos you're getting , you're buying, you're buying a food commodities will lower, lower prices than you would have done in the presence of free trade, cos there's all this dumping and European surpluses, you know Come in Yes he is here Win Yes, erm, Sue's after you, if you going, she wants to know, can you go to lunch in ten minutes? When, One o'clock No I can't come, I'm dining with er, Charles and a post-grad. So Gerard's his name, erm, remind me to see about, are you free tomorrow at eleven? Yes, Tony's just dropped that on me Oh from a great height. No I'll, I'll speak to you, I'll speak to you later. Erm, er, clearly if you're a, a net importer of agriculture, you have benefited from other people's protectionism. Okay, and you will suffer as a result of liberalization, and by and large those costs, or those benefits that er, reaped at the moment by those countries are very, very small in comparison to the, er, the costs of protectionism to the rest of the world. Right okay. Tell you what we'll do is er, leave it there now. I would recommend you do is look in this book, there's a coup a couple of copies of which is, I mean er, is in the library, right. Current Issues in Agricultural Economics er, edited by your lord and master, Professor Rayner and also a chap called David Coleman okay so, Current Issues in Agricultural Economics by A Rayner and D Coleman. But if you look at chapter four in that book, we have the title, Agricultural Trade and the GATT. Alright, now the first part of this chapter spells out erm, er, developments in agricultural trade, why it's, why it's fallen in relative terms right. It then goes on to look at the costs of protectionism so they're, they're looking at erm, the numerical estimates as to how much erm, protectionism costs,not only for domestic producers and consumers and tax payers, but also for third countries. It then goes on to look at erm, why agriculture hasn't been included in the GATT up until now, and prospects for a solution within the GATT. This er, although it's not on your reading list, erm, the reading list that Bob gave to you, er, it, it should be. It's essential to erm, to what you've been going through in the last, in the last few lectures. Readable, full of erm, empirical evidence about costs of agricultural protection, and what's happened to agricultural prices and I re I do recommend that you have a look at it if you, it's an invaluable if you look at anything, look at, look at this one article. And there should be a couple of er, issues of this book in, in the library, okay, right, well thanks very much. Have a very good holiday and er,tomorrow there won't be a normal agri-econ lecture, there'll be a special lecture, but it'll be in the same place, same time. Hello, Tim speaking, I was on my way Charles. Okay, I'll see you in a minute. Bye . Right, that's it. Right. Got well loads of homework tonight. Got any merit marks today? Er one yeah in maths ooh er for the class work look at that homework I got two wrong and in science steady should be finish. Try doing that. I can't. Are you coming to the fair tomorrow? Yes Ah? Yeah. Are you going? Half past ten to half past twelve. Is Dad? Could do love cos I've gotta get er Karen's er card. What from the fair? Yes I might find something there. There's some good things but th they don't do cards. What sort of stalls are there? No I got the cakes Does it look alright Paul? Could of got the but they're there . So will we got to that other place Dad? Yeah hopefully ring up her ring up er ticket line see if it's er they might be a day about a day yeah. day what is it O eight nine eight one O eight nine eight four hundred three three three. Alright. In that one Paul and I are going into work, alright? Is that alright? Yeah he's going to do his homework there. I have a Yeah I know you out Who takes you tonight then? Mark I can't remember gotta get cleared up before Sunday I've gotta go at nine o'clock tomorrow morning to get the cake. Yeah. Twenty third. Where's the calendar gone? Have you got it? By the phone oh no it's this round the erm on the table I might you change you can't go. Make a other meeting. Yeah I've done the booking. Well that's alright we can go w whe y you if you're at Mencap oh you w I only said we're getting a lift and Richard to write a letter to join the dance. Why is tha why is David involved in that all of a sudden, it's not through us is it? I dunno still right Dad it's the tenth of It's very odd isn't it! December. What? Tenth of December. Oh right. Oh!er look I mean it at all unless David gives me a little May other meeting. That's a good reason for David to give me a lift isn't it? He won't mind will he? You'll have all re you'd know where it is, won't you, by then? Well I know where it is I just don't know how to get there. Normal squad for tomorrow . Do you hear Gary Lineker's got his son's got Yeah. but it it's not life Only fourteen life endangering though is it only fourteen babies under twelve months old get that every year! God you know you are lucky wouldn't you? The irony of it is this is that he has done a lot, he gave ten thousand Yeah. pounds, is it, not to the leukaemia was it or w was it? Think it was cancer childhood cancer or something. Yeah it's almost though he knew, it weird! I mean fourteen babies a year that can Get Leukaemia? And as well as his son? No ah yeah under twelve months old only fourteen babies a year get it Oh that's dreadful! How old's his baby then? Well it just shows you how famous he now means you are. mail and it says about what a lovely family they are and how it's gotta Shame! be good that a such a er erm show what a perfect family how they sort of go through it all. It said a lot of people who're watching how they react? Yeah by a family who knew them personally not off . Will he still be playing for Tottenham, Mum? Will he still be going to Japan. Ask at your your Christian Union about Sunday and bring that up, Sunday lunch we had a right old ding dong at work today! What about Trev it? Trevor thinks it's not stopping you going to church he said. True. Dad can I have your quiz can I have the quiz. No we're gonna do it tomorrow morning no I won't. How many questions are you gonna have in it? Dad? What? How many questions are you gonna have in your quiz? Dunno I Hello is that John? I n I like the new quick ones It's Ruth here. than the ones in the I don't know how to tell you this I can't I can't lot's of make the tenth ! Well I I I could but all we'll go through go through some papers and start cutting out things and I a chair for the only thing if I if you do it even in the chair for a meeting you won't enter the quiz so what do you wanna do? about erm Would you rather me do it on my own I think And then you can enter with cos I thought about sticking everybody into pairs cos they've asked me. Mean I won't be able to enter the quiz? Well you'll know the answers won't you! Oh I want that some if all the social services just put in with the thing having Please can I a ask the questions? a series of six meetings about this Now let's have everything tha I want to aim a at doing any oral questions just Ah? like a lot about it and shan't be, frankly I'm relieved I don't actually know a lot but when the meeting to discuss what we're supposed to do is on December tenth yo so I'm a bit torn cos I in a way that's what I ought to be doing even though the welfare business in a way that's wh that's what I ought to be doing cos it's entirely . Would you like Paul to buy presents tomorrow? For me at the fair? Oh well he says he's got e he's got enough now hasn't he? No you want one! To give to me on Sunday. Oh I see. Still put that aside . Oh Trevor was quite good he di he d he would've got his big pay rise today an didn't push it too much I don't think perhaps it's Nick though Why's got a big one? Well he got promoted didn't he he's stable now that child though hasn't he? Until they start tre tra blurgh they start treatment straight away don't they, these days. Oh he's only twelve and ended up as one of the smallest birds But it said I heard that it said chemotherapy well what's that's erm drugs is it, no that's radiation isn't it? Makes your Oh y hair fall out well you wouldn't give that to a little baby would they? Well you'd have to. I thought they washed the blood out changed all the blood. Blood type and that's what that other woman died girl died of didn't she they I was saying to Trevor it's it's not very nice but it's rather so much better than than than having a cot death isn't it? If you see what I mean. Mm. I can actually imagine the feeling of going to a cot and then finding no no the child was dead, that's awful. Done there was a our school dinners today I went into this give you four pounds back I get twenty two pounds sixty Have you got two tens in change of a twenty? I haven't got five pounds Have you got two tens you want to change for a twenty Paul? No sorry. That's been quite good that cos you know I had a hundred and ten pounds left Mm. I only took out the palace because I knew I'd given I'd written a cheque for forty You'd written out a cheque and I've only just started, still got two people outstanding so I've got that forty pound and I put that into the building society and use that forty pounds for months see so it kind of like saved it for me, I've managed, had to do without it Yeah. and er When have you got to pay all that. What mu a a th agent says I only have to pay it off a day How much is it? What just write a cheque? Yeah and that way . Well you won't be there on the day. Well Dave'll be down there today. Well not you can't pay on the night, can you? Well I suppose I'm sure Adrian won't mind if I paid him the day after or a week after or something. You're unemployed I wouldn't have thought you could've stood a hundred and fifty, two hundred pounds withdrawal. No I don't mind saying it I I'm not gonna ask any more. What? Well so that yo about Adrian after a few weeks it's you know Remind me to wash in these cupboards before Sunday. Yeah. Have you seen Jan and Joan dress up to their their Victorian day Jan came like a an upright stripped erm working, not working class a sort of governess right she had Yeah. frumpy shoes and a . Where'd she get the clothes from? Oh she borrowed it, and a bonnet and a white flowers an all and Joan turned up like a a twenty five year old Victorian fashion model you should have seen her! Black silk skirt maroon blouse her hair done up in a bun draped with gold jewellery oh talk about looking the part! What's wrong with that? And John hired this thing like a cape Who's idea is it? Was it? Oh it's it's quite common, everybody does it if you have a vic if you study Victorians anyone who a Victorian and they all they did all done out, chairs er table space at the front, they did drill in the playground they played with tops and hoops in the playground, all the children the m parents hired costumes from Fairy Godmothers Fairy Godmother's done a roaring trade especially Ah I should think Fairy Godmothers put the ideas into somebody's head, I would have thought. That's not We might It's just a very good way of er teaching chi I mean children will I mean that's the kind of experience Yeah. you never forget, do you? Some of but you can't do it for something like a Medieval's day or Roman No. day it'd be grim, but Victorian Victorian people have got a, yeah just close enough to sti still remember a lot of the cloths and stuff. and they had to they had to sit in rows and they had to do as they were told and they weren't allowed Ha! to speak. Yes. Apparently some of the children got quite scared of Jan cos Jan played the part so well ah Joan for life. Frightened the life out of them. Yeah. Ah back ah back ah back and bill . So what did John look like perhaps like a little Billy Bunter didn't he? Ah no he looked very good he had a gown and a mortar board and cane and bow tie and pin striped socks, quite good, yep. And they wore that all day all of them all day? All day and then he got all to do at lunch time yeah they kept it up all the day, they had separate play time, they had had to eat their lunch in the class room all they were allowed was a piece of fruit, a bread and water and they all had to have, you know, they had a bread roll supplied by the school an a an apple I think And Jan made them write out their names and some of them couldn't write their name! Boy called Daniel couldn't write Daniel cos all last year he'd been allowed to put Danny an he'd forgotten how to write Daniel! Search me! How old's that child? Ten and John And he can't that's what's so dreadful, Joe was language coordinator and they came from her! Can't write names. And another boys name was Thomas and he couldn't write that cos all last year he'd been Tom an he'd forgotten how to write his surname they're not dim children both of them Frightening isn't it? family she says quite an eye opener an they had write lines if they did anything wrong one boy just I reckon she could carried him but No. You can't be three times Where's tonight gone? All this stuff in out here shall I? You think you're exhausted after a days work imagine if you've been doing that all day long, shouting Look! and shrieking, no I mean that I shout and shriek all day long! Ooh I'll lose my voice up there today we've done some really good things though try and do see more my hall is very full if he bothered to come to school he'd have seen them! Still find those what's this that's broken from? But Mummy you could Paul spikes. Excuse me! You took them and I want the batteries for them. Some people go round You asked me for them. in science books Excuse me ! What does it say? Fourteen and a half. Were they marked? No look at this here. Don't like the smell of your Narcissus. Well go and won't they. Don't like the smell. Somebody look! Can you see it? Let's go . Oh well neat! You know I can't see from that distance I thought John had a snowman badge on today, when I got close it's an owl and it said I am the vet. He enters into th the to the fray doesn't he with it er No he's got a grey jumper with an owl Beaky on it all over the front and a mortar board on the owl. Did they have to ask him to do that or did he just volunteer. Oh probably just did it Do you know what Terry's do you know what one of my children did today?do you know what did apart from the fact he spent all day crying then he had to do the corrections, I said go back and do your corrections, said right on your own I wrote something that went no homework done, so he wrote no homework done,no homework done, no homework done ! Oh no! er! I can just scream ! Ah spent all day weeping today with one thing and another when he weeps Why cos you keep telling him off? he oh! They'd write a poem for her about my greatest fear, I said I remember last year there was a boy called Ali and he wrote a story about a poem about this bird and cos he was really scared of that and so I said I don't suppose any of you will write about being scared of me except perhaps Adine! Eh. All Americans go Eh Nine o'clock tomorrow I'm going over to Kate ten thirty that gives me a bit of lee-way I've got a at ten I thought it was ten thirty I ought to get some money out really You're not going into Woking tomorrow morning are you doing your quiz? Do you want some help with it, not really. Well I was gonna paper out and start cutting out some faces I think cos I mean a I may just as well I mean I was quite happy to let Paul help me out but then He can't take part. he can't enter the quiz then No you should do it but he shan't all yourself and then I don't think I'm gonna do as much as I'm just gonna do No cos you won't a big stream of pictures right Yeah. and them I'm gonna think I'm gonna do the same South America Yeah. but do South American you know get some big ones Yes. in that might be fun mighten't it? Yeah I can't do it with you. And you could already write up in red pen you sort it out instead of arguing about trying to do it. Yeah you could u u or split up the to start. some proverbs, I can't think can you complete these proverbs good book up there for that I don't know at all, there's something wrong Ooh this looks really good got look at this book, all the streets it's got like The House of Commons and The House of Lords Oh yeah! Take you brilliant book that Alright. I'm at school you can smell it in the book it's got all proverbs and what things mean. What's all this then. Well they're proverbs aren't they. All of them or Yeah. single ones? Well all sorts, let sleeping dogs lie, the ones that underline them as I've underlined in biro. Where did you get that Sort of big words for little words that's a big word, you have to think of an addition, I've had it in nineteen fifty eight it is or nineteen sixty three geographical facts Oh yeah. peoples of other land, look all the people that come from Mum, how do I get Are you sure it's up-to-date though? Well you bu you'll know if it isn't. Dad? Sorry. Spell deceased. Deceased, D E C E A S E D. Look, masculine, feminine Kevin masculine, feminine some of them are really hard Zar, Marino distinctive name given to some countries, look the dairy of Northern Europe, Debonair cut your nails down! Urgh! Look famous famous founders, pioneers Africa for east or west I think it'd be there today the muses do you know what that says? Yes. Any more famous faces oh you're gonna do up? No I was wa er what what the other guys did he's gone through a whole load of newspapers cutting peoples faces out Yeah. some a little quite obscure Yes. and just stuck it in little boxes, like little boxes and Yeah. that put it underneath that's all I'm gonna do is, do I I'll measure the framework Yeah. and stick them on photographs an filling in a the names underneath. Of who you think it is. Yes. seen them really. Ish so that it score The la funny enough they had Gasgcoigne and the picture was so poor it looked people put things like oh you know er Edna Everage things like that and he ju , he looked like a woman and he the really You know you're of pictures now then. Yeah. So you're gonna photocopy this or are you just doing one original one? No I'm gonna photocopy it. Are they free? Yeah. about going cos I've got tomorrow as well. Well you're at football tomorrow. Yeah not all day. Virtually watching Boon I've got some A two paper I think. Ah don't look! Even if I looked I wouldn't know gotta be fairly small pictures haven't they? How do you spell disappearance? Yeah aha go over there D I S A double P E A R A N C E cos you're far too near whe wha I'm what I'm doing. And again. D I S A double P E A R A N C E. Do you want a coffee Ruthy? Yes please I'll have a Maxwell House cappuccino. have some women in it. Ooh it's a good one, there's some really obscure ones! Do some of the things you'd know! Just because you've got some imbeciles coming! Who are they? Well mainly the children . Dunno them. Your Your cousins. I'll do a full face on that one cos that's hard. What is it? Knowing Yvonne she'll hee hee! Actually it's surprising how many faces you can get just looking at cheap newspapers you see, incredible! You think ooh that's well done quite easy. Oh did you do Kettle's boiled Kettle's boiled It's only three weeks since the last party this is all for Jim's benefit isn't it . I thought this has co ro come round quite soon. Well she goes June come on, could have had it next Friday I think something must be happening next Friday, she goes to Australia on the seventh well maybe that is next Friday Oh no it's the isn't it? So she can't come to the ? Cos the sixth is next Friday no. It's just as well cos she's bound to say something about my quiches! Ha ha ha!. . Gosh how much have you got Paul? Lots. You do it all tonight? No. Why? Erm I can't. You can't do any tomorrow can't do any on Sunday I suggest you do it all tonight. Can't. You don't about this cappuccino is I don't understand is that here Maxwell cappuccino is You can't open the packet. twice the volume Yeah, but twice that's right much more powder than you use We I know you can't open the packets, it's stupid! Honestly Paul you won't have time to do it tomorrow and Sunday well you can work 'till nine o'clock tonight. How much, can I? You can work 'till nine o'clock tonight. These Narcissi are really strong. Sorry? Cor they're really strong. Ooh yeah aren't they. Mm. I don't they're going to grow that tall, somehow but gone up straight as a dye haven't they? I can't put them down there to begin with, I think they all draw up Hey than lower down. My hic hyacinths have all come out except no, they've all come out, one goron l looks like it's gone and lot congealed little bad and another hyacinth has two have come up and other ones not come up at all. You haven't had as many as usual have you? Well no not perhaps as many as last year. I'm gonna have to go in this afternoon again . What did I do with the scissors? Took them out to make the tea did you get any biscuits? No except for some . There's some Kit-Kats up there. Well you're not having any. I wouldn't mind one. No Pauline Just one. would agree. I'm nine two this morning on the scales, I'll have you know. Wanna a Kit-Kat Pauly? Yes please How do you spell whereabouts? W H E R E A B O U T S seems to be a lack of spelling at your, this place Ah! Urgh! Put plenty of royalty in. Are you looking? Oh no, why should I! Trouble is Paul I wouldn't cheat. She's you Pauly. I won't cheat! You'd love to though. Why? I gave my top group your algebra homework today they said Pau is this Paul's homework, I said yes that's not fair I said why isn't it fair? Well it's too hard, I said how do you know it's too hard? And they all did it apart from Chris who said urgh she always works us too hard! Apart from Christopher most of them managed it Paul especially Richard he's really clever I know who that is, Lady Di. Shut up Ruthy! Is this one Lady Di? Is Mum not entering it then? Yeah. Course I am. Then why are you looking? I'm not looking Paul don't tar everybody with the same brush. What? Pardon, don't tar everybody with the same brush. Ooh pardon me! What's that mean? That means just cos you're likely to cheat don't assume that everyone else does. Then why did you say Princess Diana? I know that's Princess Diana. Cos I see him cut it out. So you were looking in the first place! No you were looking at the Mal Vicinty Vicinty Spell Vicinty I don't know, about it . Will I have to pull up any of those caps heads before your Mum comes round? No. We were just hanging around talking today and the children done Christmas card competition an wi some really and me and Ah! Moira ! and and Joanne Joe, say who could judge this, this is for our competition we'll say Heidi coming, no, is anybody else in it, no er Sarah'll come in cos she doesn't know, right? So John came up and we said er we were wondering who could judge th Christmas card competition and he was saying oh I don't know,and then th the P T A chairman came up erm we said oh perhaps you should judge the Christmas card competition erm and she said well Melissa is judging it and we said Pardon! Then John,, said well didn't you ask her this morning then! And Joan says oh no I forgot! Well and even that didn't jog his memory, that he should have asked her to judge it! What a dozy ! You know Who's judging it then? Well Mary going to judge it and, would he let her do it on her own, no he followed her round, making comments here, making comments there, trying to influence her fact is, this'll make you laugh, you know the wall displays you know th erm the books, Where's Wally Where's Wally you have this page, of really tiny little things and you have to find Wally, who's a person, right? Yeah. In minute detail, hidden on the page is something, you remember how Simon had books like that Yeah. In where's Lisa, Where's Freddie, anyway it's Where's Wally, for that he said er I think I'll get a picture of somebody and er course he I said you gonna call it Where's Wally? He said no I'm wanna call it Where's the Wally! Milly said cos we'd been talking about this all day and they, the children had been saying to John you gonna have a picture of yourself in Where's the Wally thing? And erm Milly said ha can't think of a more suitable candidate and swept off ! If you don't want the car I'll drive to school tomorrow. What? I said if you don't want the car I'll drive Paul and myself to school tomorrow. Just thought Mu Mum's got this newspaper so she might,s know some of them photographs. Well then it's not fair, use a different newspaper. Well I haven't got them. We got our local papers, aren't there any in there? Doesn't matter. You get yes you do you get pictures of pop stars and that in The Yeah? Mail. Right. And you can have my magazines That's a hard one. as well if you want The Express and The Mail have much the same pictures Got a football magazine and a Woman you can have a football, I can't u look Still get some wrong it don't matter anyway does it. Football will be there for children won't it? Yes that's what I mean, I noticed that the man who did it balanced it rather nicely, he had some actors some politicians, that everyone can contribute especially in a . except for me If you think my general knowledge is abysmal! Abysmal! Erm after football's done, then it must be us. . Will you tell Paul he's gotta finish his homework tonight, if he can't do any tomorrow he can't do any on Sunday Not cutting off their hair? Yes. Let's see. Not allowed to look Can I read that? No. Please? No. Why is it illiterate? Yeah. Hurry up with the scissors Pauly. Why the rush? Got a pen? Cutting out like mad here. Have you got a pen?anything that writes Paul? No, anyway you didn't ask me! I have. Then in there and get it! How much did you pay for this pen in the market? It's got a loose nib! What? This pen you bought in the market has got a loose nib. How many you got? Oh, still waiting for the scissors. Oh Paul! What? What is the matter? Daddy wants the scissors. Well I'm sorry! Not very. Ha. Don't throw scissors, ooh it's very dangerous. Paul! Well you shouldn't keep taking them! Tell you what you can have a pair for Christmas instead of a computer. Oh yes please! There's a pair there look paper's there. You saw then you were looking ! I'm not . You were ! See you can't be trusted. Ray Wilkins Is it ? Oh that is ridiculous! Sorry I just . That's it! See you can't be trusted, you're a you get quite upset when you get accused and Pauly quite rightly accuses you. I caught her looking Paul. She's always looking! She'll always look up Got a Pritt stick? Yeah. Where is it. Usual place. Where's the usual place? Where's the usual place? Can't it isn't pardon? Where in there Is it in there? It is . Was she looking? She was looking at what, Ray Wilkins. Well how do you know of Ray Wilkins? Well cos she called it out. pay my attention to it, I look harder. She. Stop making silly noises then! She'll be Ferrero Roche. I'm really not Hey how about getting erm if I can get there early enough individual Christmas cakes they were gonna sell them for Oh yeah. two pounds each individual iced Christmas cakes like this. Cheap. Yeah. I want one of them might be nice for Natty. Keep it in the box. boing! De er der der der der . You're on still, look! Yes you're on, no you're off. Dad? Eh? I today did you do one bulls eye no not cut up the thing and say which sport does this person belong to might get a picture of Rob Andrews see if they stick rugby or tennis on. Yes Paul that'll be a bit unfair for the other twenty nine people around wouldn't it? What other twenty nine people round? Ah! Then you'd know all the answers. Can't do one for everything! I think you should have a music one. One or two I I know now I'm writing them down and . Ha ha I'm in at tomorrow morning I'm hoping when I wake up I wanna nice and So what time do I need to wake up? From the fair? Not very early, you can sleep in I've gotta go to Waitrose to pick up the stuff. Sleep into when? Well ten o'clock. Ten o'clock! Oh hang on I'm leaving at ten cos I want to be there a little early and start them but I hope to get some perks. Nine okay? Wake up at nine? Yeah I'm going to Waitrose at nine. So which fair is this at school is it? Yeah, what do you think I'm talking about! Oh I don't know I heard it's a craft fair, that's all I heard. All this time Daddy thinks it's a like No I said it's a lovely craft fair. It's called Christmas fair but you and Darren have got a stall so ah Why did you know what to do there then? I already bought a children's thirty five pee each. Yeah. Zoe said are they for your little said which little fun are you talking about Zoe? Said yes they're both for Paul ha ha! Little Look at those brilliant grafts Mum double grafts they're called Hobart and Darwin. Why are they called double grafts? They're not called double they've sort of got a about rainfall and temperature. Oh and they show two things so y you'll have to see if there's any correlation between the two is there any correlation between rainfall and temperature, and is there? When rainfall goes up does temperature up and vice versa? Dunno just gotta describe them. Well that's what you have to say, is there any correlation between What does correlation mean? They all correlate. Yeah. It's connection isn't it Kev? Mm. Yeah and you've gotta see That's level six, you should be doing that. What's level six? Well correlation I've just done that with all my children, you should be level six, no good doing it, you should be it Want you to do two pieces of work for Monday and all the same level, so there's an extra two you've got to do. And what homework do you, what do they get what homework do they get over Christmas? They get poem, my greatest fear and they get a project homework from Lynn. So how many homeworks do they get, two? Yeah how many have you got? Five. Rubbish! Clap trap! That word would go down well. You know that lady that did the thing so Lary what did you w and you say the children w meant knew what it meant, what did they say it meant? Well sort of meant all knowing. No Lary means something like it's sort of like someone mm Ah you know that word as well. Yeah Well how do you spell it? L a r y. L a r y? Yes it it's Lary, it's sort of like someone insults you like they er you've only got four toes and so I'll say that's well Lary! And then y but I take that then What like an insult? Lary, yeah like hey you when and got too Lary! Sounds like Aunty Sheila's mardy Got it? she says mardy don't she? Lary everyone's going oh that's Lary but Well I've never heard of it and they I said But and you called James a moron or something like that Yeah but he goes moron but he goes we know what moron means. but he goes oh that's Lary! You shouldn't take that word, well What you unkind? No I do No Lary. Rude? Yeah. No I'm sure he didn't mean rude. Not unkind, it's like you shouldn't take that from him that's bad get him out ding da ding ding ding ding ding boo boo diddle erm, doo doo doo doo diddle erm dum dum dum diddle erm ding ding diddle er er diddle er yeah yeah doo diddle erm doo doo dee dee dee boom boom diddle erm boom . Hurry up! I'm moving, I'm scrooving, I'm dooving this is hard, got to take all these notes and just put them into all sort of a summary. Spell summary. S u m m a r y today is Saturday. Is there any connection why have you coloured it in red biro! And oh I don't really know. That doesn't show anything! Yet the January, February, March the temperature is high which is temperature I can't tell by looking at that, which one's temperature and which one's rainfall. That's temperature and that's rainfall. Yeah but which line refers to which, how can I tell? You need to put the dotted line there and square there No you can look like that. How? Rain, ten millimetres of rain equals one millimetre ten of rain equals one millimetre and this one one degrees celsius equals Well I'm sorry I don't think that is very clever for you! there and one degrees, how can temperature What? one degree celsius equals one millimetre Yes. So it's twenty five degrees celsius in January? No. Well I thought it wouldn't be a bad idea to put some sort of clue on it. We've got twelve people coming, right? Er yep what's that gotta do with anything? Well cos I'm gonna have pairs I think here And one you! Oh singles then? It's more No fun in pairs isn't it cos the people can have the scraggle and talk to each other. You'll have to have pairs and put one three. Chips. Well that's not fair then. Put Michael with Oh yeah if you put Michael with two other people, it's completely fair. But then your implying something aren't you. Why don't you say if you're a child you can go in a group of three, if your adults you'll have to be in a group of two, so the children can attach themselves to any group. Right. Right. You've got eleven people you need four groups you don't have four groups it's not worth doing is it? Gotta share it all out perfect even why don't you say, stick it on the wall, give them each a piece of paper and they've gotta do it I've got an idea, you can compile a quiz Fine I'm and then you could have a treasure hunt for the children you know Couldn't I. Most amusing Are you gonna sort of read out the question and they each gonna scribble down their answer. Nope. What you gonna do? No, just leave Have a chart. your father! What? Have a chart. Heart. You'll let people overlook each other then sort of overlooking Cheating you mean! Yes I mean that's the first thing you have to say, you have to think when you look at you keep, anybody who does the whispering Is Mum. is giving their answers away in fact, what we did, the team of four, is they all had a little pad of paper, if you spotted something you knew, you went and you wrote it down because people we there. You did it in silence. Yeah tried to do and they obviously can't. Why aren't you gonna for faces. Well this th this is the the faces and I thought I'd do the maps and the rest were questions I don't know whether y should do some questions. Well you'll have to think of some. Yeah I'll see how I go any You got the maps of South America? Yeah. I've got one at work a blank, you should of asked me for it. What all split up, yeah? Yeah. Oh. I could get it tomorrow morning in my Yeah could you? Blanked out without the er the countries names Yes in it? Oh yeah. I've got all the countries blanks might not oh I might not even have the countries on but if you had blanks you could put countries in, that'll be easier than No that'll be harder. No what the boundaries? Yes because if you've got the scale you just drop, trace it all off where as you got the you've the you gotta sort out work out i th the scale of everything, haven't you? No you just draw the lines. Yeah but how do you ge What scale? How you going to know exactly where the boundaries go or i in between some land-lock countries that you got it in the right position How many land-lock countries are there in South America? Well enough anyway, I mean I thought you were giving me something easier to do not Well I think why would you do it tonight if I didn't have it? Yes Say I didn't have it tomorrow you'd well do it tonight? probably ni or tomorrow I was gonna do that. I seem to think you should take the easy bit, cos that's gonna be miles too hard! No I like to balance it, I ju there's some balance there, there's some easy ones and some hard ones. I'll tell you what's best for Michael. I don't feel that's very good because you're just gonna get children totally pull out of it unless they're No. really really good. Children are allowed to go You find that if if if i in a team, if there's teams i you find that in a singles, but if there's a team e if everybody feels the everybody feels they can contribute something to it when you've got You can have those allowed to be the idea of that, you don't wanna make it Yeah I know too easy No there are no husbands allowed to be with any wife and children can attach themselves to which group they want. So work out the groups, you work out the groups. Well there's going to be apart from your father there's going to be seven adults. Listen, a man with a woman but not wi not by marriage cos say like Andy with Nanna Well I could go with two children, I expect. Well write down the names let's have a go at, let's work out, let's work out the teams Cos I'm the cleverest person, I can go with two teenies! lo , write down the names. Modest! No and I could be the only adult with two children cos I'm so clever. Write down the names and th work out some balanced teams then for me please. Ah, give me a pen! I'll write it out with her. Can I, thank you. Then people don't argue then do they, if they say look that's the team then th people are h happy. There's Nanna and Margarite, if I find him another Yes, they don't know cos they're both Daily Mail readers and I'm cutting the majority of these out. And and maybe an adult Don't put No four groups, is all you'll get out of twelve people. don't put Michelle and Andy together. I'm not? Don't put Papa a Nanna and er Adrian And Kevin with Andrew yeah no not Kev and Andrew because erm Mooty Yeah. Mooty and Michelle Hang on i What other adult is there? There's only me Is Karen quite good? One, two Yes Karen is three, four will be as sharp as iron Can I be with Papa then? It'll have to be me with Papa. Okay . That's the eight adults. Who're you putting Karen with? Be careful cos Karen is the Andy. Andy. No that's far tha well think again isn't that Nanna and Michelle and Mooty, why you think that's too clever? Andy an Andy and Karen will streak through. What better than Michelle and Mooty? I bet you. She generations though. I bet I'll give you a bet Karen will win it. What about Papa? Who you gonna put Karen Because with? she thinks , she reads papers. Well I put Karen with Papa and me with Andy then. It's just her her what? Put me with Andy then, and Karen with Papa. No that'll be too easy cos you and Andy'll streak through that. Mm. It should be No it'll have to be Karen and Andy cos Mooty and Andy! Yeah? Cos the others are different generations, they're at a disadvantage cos they're the same generation Andy Yeah. and Karen. Yeah so Karen doesn't read The Mail and nor does Andrew. You'd be surprised, Karen's well read, newspaper wise she's not Oh of course or something. Right you got that'll do, I think unless your father wants to No. Now three of those groups can have a child should be with Nanna and Adrian. No. Why not? You mean you with Nanna and Adrian yeah I think you should Okay. be with them put Michael with Andrew and Karen tha Which one are you gonna have? Who can have Lisa, me and Papa or Michael an Mi Michelle and Mooty? See I'm in so me th th they'll all be able to contribute. Michelle and Mooty. That's right Cross Michael out then? Where's does Lisa go? Cross Michael out. Why? Just cross him out. Why? You've gotta think of the generations they would be more likely to lead a pop star or sort of person that would know all those those sort of things, put Michael with Michelle and Mooty and Lisa with Papa and Mum Be careful who you put Mooty with cos Mooty I've put her with Michelle! Oh that's alright, that's fine, yes. and Lisa with Papa and you. So that left Andrew and Karen on their own? Yes that's fair Do you think that's fair? Sorry? Andrew and Karen, you think Yeah. they're so clever that they're Yeah. going to beat anybody else? They will win. Yeah, so listen to this Nanna, Adrian and me Go to Dad. okay I'll read it out, Nanna, Adrian and me, Dad? make up on. Okay? Sorry? Nanna, Adrian and me Papa, Mum and Lisa Andrew and Karen He's not listening he's not listening I am yes Michelle , Mooty and Michael. That's alright. Is it after lunch, I presume? Yes. I knew Michelle and Mooty would need somebody else cos you know Michelle Mooty would have a . Paul you gonna throw me another pencil I seem to have lost Paul don't belittle the lost one. older generation. No but s Throw me a pencil please? I'm just saying would she know about Michael Jackson and all that sort of stuff. Is Daddy putting Michael Jackson in? I don't know, he's bound to put in, I hope. I'm not giving any clues away I'm balancing as best I can. What do you want? Pencil, I know you couldn't concentrate on three things! comet have you used the match box? Yes that brown crayon you've got in your hand'll do. Why, why will it do? Well you seem a bit desperate. What you gonna do with it? Right so you're going to go work Well after I've gone to have you? Yeah. You can go to work when the tape stops Well he's not going to watch you sticking all those on at work what's he gonna be doing. He's doing his homework. I can draw some sides just like I can put I could make a just draw neatly in the teams bi on a big piece of paper that'll make it look really good,. And when were you going to do the map of you can't do that map tomorrow can you? Yeah. Well when will you do that at work then? Before or after football? I'll slot it in sometime tomorrow. Right, fine wish you could slot into washing up mood. Ooh there's a hard one. There. Ooh ooh ooh ooh ooh that'll sort out the I'd like someone to say, I'd like to have one or two that nobody gets. Is there a prize? What do you mean? Sorry? Is there a prize? I suppose there should be. Suppose there should be yeah. What an overall prize or individual prizes? Er Little individuals is it? Well they'll have to be equal prizes wouldn't they? I've got it! Whichever team wins th the cha children can give out the Christmas presents. What Christmas presents? Those presents up there. Big deal! Can't fool you. Well I've never prize It's only it's only fun, I mean what are you gonna give them? The team that wins gets their presents. He said I used to laugh at my Dad when he used to do these quizzes but when That's why you'll start getting more and more like your Dad. Yep. Wouldn't argue with that one iota. What does iota mean? Scrap. One what? Scrap. Scrap? Scer er ap . Why? One little bit, I wouldn't argue with her. You could do a treasure hunt, Dad Dad Mm? you could do a treasure hunt. No it's too hard. It's not. No this is do this is just a gentle little thing it'll just get people laughing and things cos You've gotta sort out how you got organised ? Who? ? No he no go upstairs th in pairs if they wanna do it, quietly. upstairs and find . Getting silly! You should have answers up there and each person has their gro group reading one in the breakfast room But we got go grammatical each person has to speak. Why don't they go out Well I can have somewhere else but they can all have their quiet place to talk. Is it tonight Casualty on? Eh? Fridays? Done today's paper? Don't know. Can I have it then. Then cut it up, I don't know you cannot loo go through you cannot go through those! I only want the television page I don't care for Friday Kevin No don't Mum Sorry. Oh for goodness sake how can I possibly see anything aye aye! Why don't you look Find it over there what about over look! Look I've found it. Oh give it ! I thought you wanted a pop star? Will you do any mathematical sums? No Mum can do them. I might win. Mum can do mathematical sums. I've got a lovely mental test for the children it's a bit hard. Is it? Better than Two one one I am so tired, I've got to get up early tomorrow , right I want that recorded twenty one thirty, shall I her out? Yes you better had as well. Oh where are your keys? Paul can you turn this thing to nought. Yes. Or on this one or you have to have the other one? The other one should be a button I've pressed the button just lift this up button she set, there you go. Thank you so if I press play and record now twenty one thirty, twenty two thirty it's half past ten thirty five to half past ten that's alright so if I press play and record now it should come on at wha one and a half and ten one forty so it should come on when it says one forty. Shoe shoes shoe I took them upstairs. Where are you going? To see Mrs . I didn't want that lady thinking you were untidy. That what lady? When are we leaving? Dad? Mm? When we leaving? In a minute oh this is it oh no they're not re releasing in that Cor look at this he's not doing the one, he's doing all his Christmas ones together . Who? Cliff that's why they did it, cos they put them all together. Mm? Clever I think. Right I got my key then. Alright, I think I got enough here. Alright? Right, yeah. Well will you be very late? No. See you then. Hello my name's Geoffrey Chaucer and I'm going now, bye. Are Paul are erm Manchester United playing in their blue strip today, will they do you think? Yeah. That's their unlucky strip. Let's hope It's a disgusting strip. That awful white and blue Yeah. strip. Red as well. Yeah I suppose they can't have red can they? Not with a red No. So, we're so much like red aren't we? Red and blue. team's us they can't have red or blue either . What did they have, what colour did they have before the blue? Oh it was blue last year wasn't it? It was a bluey weirdy one before Oh yeah. last year. Yeah. Before that they have white don't they? All white. Oh yeah. They played the cup final in white didn't they? Yeah. Right. I looked up the teletext and it said full squad for Manchester United. Even Paul Parker's fit. So they've got the full Not the palace full squad? Man United? No Man United, yes. So they can't have any, if we beat them they can't have any excuses. Yeah. Have they got Lee Sharp? Well I don't know. I don't think don't think that's, that means that I don't think. I hope not. That's all we need. I've got to try and make sure the petrol lasts till the Texaco garage When's that? Where is the Texaco garage? That one by Carshalton ponds I don't think there's any one nearer is there? No. Oh yeah that one. We don't usually go to that one do we? Been to it before but not for a long time . Is this the A three or the M twenty five? A three. Lovely new road. Be kind of funny to see the mascots going on knowing what they've done . Oh yeah. Except they'll have had a four course meal to eat. Will they? Well maybe. Does that mean they would have if they have it at the ? On Saturday well I mean it's the option to have it Saturday. I don't know, at at that price I don't know. I don't think very many do. Really don't. Fast. Did you see that erm did you hear that in the Zenith Data Yes. er game? When the Q P R man interviewed the ref. The the Sky television man interviewed the , Oh yeah. he said what's the coin? And he says nineteen sixty two when I started reffing and he said the oth they're not I'm not giving them this one but these two are for the other mascot scene. You lost out there didn't you really ? They were badges. They gave themselves badges . Oh badges. Oh. What did you ref say? No chance sorry you can't have it? Dunno. Geoff Thomas sent for He asked on your behalf didn't he? Yeah. Well you can't ask any more of Geoff Thomas than that I suppose. I wonder why that little bit was in the paper about Geoff Thomas being absolutely priceless? Was it cos someone's What bit? someone's after him again? What bit? There was a little article in the Sun I told you about. Alan Smith saying Geoff Thomas is absolutely priceless. Er all he's got to do is score more goals. That's what I couldn't understand. What a nerve! .I think he meant for England. All he had to do to seal his England career was pop in a two, a few goals like he does at Palace Yeah. and er could be on the way to a regular spot. He is in a regular spot at the moment. Well I don't know. Hope, hope that's true. Yeah but well you look that that jaguar four litres! . Four litre car! Yeah but what are you gonna do with four litres? I dunno. Well quite. It does about eighteen miles to the gallon. How many miles do we do to the gallon? I hope we do something like thirty six. Thirty six! Don't think it's much more than that. How can his, well if ours is one point six there's three times No it doesn't work that way. It doesn't work like that? No. So what how long will it take him to get eighty miles filling up every ? Well I mean do they have huge tanks? I mean they take if you, if you filled up you could put I think it's about twenty six gallons in that car. And how many can we put in? Nine? Eleven? Cor. Eleven. It was eight, nine. I think this might take eleven. So how much do they spend if they filled it ? Don't forget if you've got all that weight, you've got that you're gonna lose even more petrol. So if you filled that up, how much would that cost them? Well, twenty six I think it's something like isn't it something like two pounds a gallon now? You don't, they do it all by litres now so it's really hard About fifty P? About fifty, fifty pounds? Fifty pounds to fill up! Yeah. Oh yeah fifty, sixty pounds. And how long would it last them? About the same time as us? Yeah. I suppose you have to be able to afford all that if you can afford the car in the first place. Right. Yeah if you have to moan about that you shouldn't be driving it in the first place. Motto, what? Motto of the story is er er don't, don't buy expensive cars if you're gonna want to run the thing though. You've spent all your money on this car. All of a sudden you realize Well like that new advert for the Rover he says don't, I keep thinking my back my back tailgate's flapping or I keep hearing, you keep hearing creaking don't you? A creak here and you think what's that, what's this, what's that? So that new Rover has been built so everything fits perfectly, right? So nothing rattles. What do you mean nothing? No toleran er the tolerance is you know minimal. Whereas the tolerance here'd be I dunno eighth of an inch here eighth of an inch there he says the advert says as soon as you have tolerances like that then thing work loose and start rattling and creaking and E E. you can hear it go E E er E. Yeah. you imagine cruising in a car, lovely car like that and it makes no noise. Just cruising away and it just like glides, and you glide you know like, like Papa's Citroen type that kind of suspension. Yeah. Is this a new Rover? Crikey what was that? A Rover. Was it that Rover? Yeah. Was this a new, is this a new Rover ? Carving everybody up. Yes. That was er that, yeah well it's not out yet is it? Looks like a looks like the front of a B M W to me. I think that's what they're trying to emulate. Oh that one. How much is it? Supposed to be. Don't know how much it costs. Should think it starts at about sixteen, seventeen thousand . Yeah . A three's heavy isn't it? Look. Yeah. So you got any ideas what you're gonna get, what you should get mum for ? Er. We could just fall back on a bit of sweets and chocolate or something in the end but I'd like to get some What what sort of thing are you gonna get her? there's some funny little weird shops down Thornton Heath aren't there? What sort of thing are we talking about? Well I dunno. Something I'm not I've no idea until I see it. Well something like soap or what? Could get her some, some toiletries or something. I dunno. I was hoping for something even more er a Moss chemist might be able to get her some Bromley don't they? There is a Moss chemist on the way. Oh yes she did tell me that she'd like some of that. Yes there is one isn't there? By shops. Right we, we'll we'll treat that as a fail safe then. If we can't see anything more unusual suppose we could always fall back on the bubble baths or the anyway I think that's a bit more than but there you go. They're off to football aren't they? Look at that! I've never seen a Metro so full. how many people are there in it? Five. Five full adults. Look really down on his haunches. Oh yeah! Low! It's really low innit? Mm. See that's the B M W I think the Rover's gonna look like. That one, that's what they're copying. Yeah. It's really like it. It's only the front though. Oh I wanted to let him go. What? Oh look! Someone's been right through that wall there, look. Cor. Ooh! You wanted to let who go? I wanted to let that car go, I was Why? Well I like to be polite. I don't like the people like this who who straddle across you and just stop you. Mm. Specially when they're Indians. Come on, let him go for goodness sake. what's that plonker holding that Sony thing for! Yeah I I held up a traffic jam of about sixty cars doing that . There's . Still there. Do you Judy then? Somebody call Judy. Judy, yeah . Yes it's Judy. Ah! What did the say up there? I don't know. Wah. I think we're gonna have to invite erm Adrian again. One of these football evening matches we could couldn't we? Yeah. I'm gonna see how many people I can let go across here, between here and Palace. Right four Do you wanna count? oh no I did four at that one and I just did one there. That's five all together now. Five. Five five times I was polite. No but they, they just ran out in front of you, those other four. No, well no I let them go though. Well the third one did. So we're counting from five? Five yeah. Only ones I don't like are the ones in like oh that doesn't matter cos he's allowed to do that cos it's a keep clear zone there. I wonder if they're going to our match here, do you think? They look like a football crowd don't they? Not really. Do they? Well I dunno It's a woman a woman driving it. Is it? Yes. Oh well. Perhaps not then. four men So if we get there early enough do you feel like a Wimpy? A Wimpy? Sony, Sony Sony Sony me Sony I don't know what That's a tiny little shop for a Sony isn't it? Yeah. Oh it's not a Sony shop though look. It's audio Sony advert. Oh. I bet they've got one of these tape recorders in it though. Mm. Sony me Sony Sony me Sony . A Wimpy? Cheapskates. They don't put the lights on in this Christmas thing till it's slightly dusk. I know. Well we can't hardly see them now. Well you well you would be able to though wouldn't you? Would you? You wouldn't want to put them on, they're not so spectacular are they? Cuts cuts down on the electricity bill. Plus two sports. It's funny, every time we've sat at our seats that bloke has come to ask the chap next to me Yeah. what he thinks of the match hasn't he? . There hasn't been one game we've been there that he hasn't or both of them haven't . Suppose they're both season ticket holders. James was well gutted on Friday . James right like Mr right he didn't know right and we have this sort of erm water fountain and he was running towards it and he, and he filled up his mouth with it and he was spitting it everywhere and we were all sort of getting out the way and Mr told him if you don't want to drink it then leave it alone and he sort of turned and walked away. Mr who's quite strict isn't he? Yeah. He looks He badminton. James Oh does he? James was really unlucky. He sort of just come, just go up there James is always into trouble isn't he? Yeah. That's rather disgusting though I know. putting water in and spitting it out. He should have remembered because always walks down there on Fridays to do his badminton class. Did he give him a de de detention or not? No, he told him to get away. Yeah well always mucks around on Fridays don't they? Sort of like ah no more school for about two days. More relaxed mood. James is very excitable Yeah. Now when I, when we went to that open day that Mr is very stern isn't he? Mm yeah. Didn't think it helped he'd, just before we got there his biro had exploded in his pocket . All the ink was all over his shirt, it was coming out all over the place. I don't think he was in the best of moods when he, we got to him. But he seemed very very stern. He doesn't smile very much. No. Terse. We have his wife er Mrs for English. And you say they're nothing to do with Mark No. ? It's unbelievable isn't it? Isn't it Yeah. Unless it's Smith in Cypriot or something . Don't know. Don't think she's Cypriot. None of them sound Cypriot but So what's his wife teach then? English. We have him for history and her for English. And her for English? Yo! Yeah. Mm. She's the one we did our Geoffrey Chaucer project, project with. I always feel guilty passing Mike's house. We really should sort of take him to football, don't you? But they are. I don't think he's I don't think he's interested as you is he really? No, nowhere near. But he's probably not there. He's probably at a party or something like that, or Yeah. I don't think he's got any lack of things to do, has he? Really? No. He never seems to have any homework to do though. all those Christmas trees in that lorry, look. Oh yeah. Where are they going to? I don't know, they're loa , looks like they're loading them in, they're putting them in the gar the school. Has that school closed now? I think perhaps it has. I went there for a week. Yeah, I think it's closed. Didn't I? I was in the fourth year, the top year . Were they nice to you there, the teachers? I mean there weren't very many teachers anyway were there? How many were there? Dunno. Three or four. Four? Three or four? Don't know. Can't remember. on the computer most of the time. And I took part in some of their tests. I got better results than some of the actual fifteen year olds. That'll be quite good about your maths test won't it? Cos you'll be, you're doing it again with, like that aren't you? Your maths you're taking class nine Yeah. you could get better than them. Yeah. Virtually every year the eighth, eighth year always does get better than the ninth year. Look that house is really old. Look it's got the plaque on it. What's a plaque mean? Is that a fire station thing? Well yeah it's yeah. No no it's not but it's, it's saying how old those houses are. all, all these Yeah? are really old. They look quite new. Yeah. Well no they're kept to look like new really old. Were th , were those white boards always there? It's got a Surrey Surrey badge on it look. Building of historical interest. What's so historic about that? Don't know well it's probably near erm three or four hundred years or something. Yeah. Everything's old around here isn't it? Apart from it's sort of like everything's old that side Yeah. everything's new the other side. More modern, yeah. Talk about that being out of place. Look at that. What? Well What Budgens? That bloke looks like your Derek doesn't he? The old Sunday school teacher. What in the car? Chap here, yeah. Does he? Bet Derek wishes he'd have a car like that. Nice. He's only got a beat up old Metro. Yeah. Spent four hundred pounds on it. They, they had a documentary on Metros apparently and the Me they said that Metros of a certain period for about, I think from his period sort of A registration, B registration, Y registration they're absolute rubbish apparently. Yeah. You know, all the rusting and everything, they've improved now. The Me if he had a Metro now he'd, you'd get a better deal but they said that They're cheap though aren't they? Well yes but not cheap if you have to keep replacing them and Think he'll probably buy a new car probably. photographic photo service. How do you spell sergeant? I've always wondered that. Is that how you act is that sergeant? Erm yes. It's not S A R? Er I think the American version is and I think that's the English version and that's right. So his name is actually somebody sergeant? Yeah. Ooh I wouldn't mind buying that, look. For sale, doesn't say a price though, but look, doesn't half look new doesn't it? Where? Complete new Opel body I reckon he's got there. T registration but Opel Manta. Nice. Genesis. Who's that? Oh that's Phil Collins isn't it. This corner here gets worse and worse, traffic lights and yet the traffic Yeah. gets further and further back. And yet two or three years ago it used to stop up there. Now you stop further, now you're almost stopping on the lights. The lights are getting clogged up . Yeah. You know those sporty rollers? They don't have all that pine in them. Don't they? That wood. No. No. Suppose it's not very zoopy sport does it, like ? No, it's not conducive as a sporty image the walnut facia. facia. Don't think. How do they make that building curved? architecture. They're quite nice actually aren't they? They, they're a bit run down. They could have a bit more money spent on them. Had a new roof I note but Yeah. They're always for sale. There's always a for sale sign out outside one of those or one of those. I reckon it's one of those flats, you can always get a flat there. Are they flats? So many that, er yeah, so many of them that soon as one's sold somebody else sells another one. Yeah. Well how many are there? Seventeen to twenty Oh twenty one to twenty six. It's a lot isn't it? Yeah. Specially both sides. Yellow flag coming out of his aerial. Oh where would you prefer your ae aerial? Would you like it there up there or at the back? Up there's alright. I like it the way the ones that you can close each time, now I'm sure my aerial will last longer. Cos you can What do you mean close. Well it compacts. Oh yeah. The ones that stick out all the time, they I suppose that is good. If you have one that doesn't compact, you you're best to have one in the middle cos it's less likely to get pranged there isn't it? Yeah. Here like walkers by can bend it and Oh look. Here's my next one. Six. I've let six go now. You must have let someone go before now. I didn't, no I haven't. No. Haven't had the opportunity to. What is this lady dressed up like? What has she got on ? What has she got on her hair? Weird. Bunch of wool . She'll be thinking where's that wool? Oh it's on my head. Look at those tiny rugby posts. Yeah, I don't know why they do that, I was gonna ask that, why they chop those off, look like they've been vandalized don't they? Yeah. It's only for junior rugby though. They haven't replaced that garage have they? It's Volvo's in there. They've got no-one, no-one's Yeah. Put a new garage in there already. There's loads of new garages going in all over the place. Volvo Could have let that one go but I was too late. Yeah. Volvo seem to be moving out all over the place. I think they're trying to set up er nought, their own things rather than just joining petrol stations. Where's the Secombe centre Back there. Have you been to that place, Holiday Inn? Headphones on the wall again. Oops a daisy. Is that the B & Q down there Yeah. or the Texas? B and Q. martial arts. So so far I've let six people go. That's not bad. Six! It is bad. You let five go in a second. Well I could you could let this one go but I think he's gonna come out isn't he? I don't know what to do. Here you are, no, I'll let him go, oh two I let go! That's eight. Oh brilliant. Yes! Eight! Wow. Eight people. Wowsers Eight people. She's gonna sit there all day she's that far back . Funny. Think it's obviously to do with trusting your car's power. It's also being alert to watch. I mean some people just don't expect you to let them out so they're dreaming mostly . Yeah. Times you flash people er? And you have to flash flash flash flash flash before you know oh, oh, ooh! let her out. You know, they're just, they're just waiting you know, sort of Others are like on the ball almost too much. They whip across you before you've even thought about it. Isn't Texaco around there somewhere? Texaco? Er no that's B P. Texaco is round the corner. Don't forgot to switch that off when we go in the garage. Yeah. Oh look. Number nine. Yes! Number 10? No I can't cos they're, they won't let her, let them go. Get stuck there. I, I'll ask about that. Yeah? Yeah. No I know about it. You have to send off. Do you? Yeah. But have you got a form or something to get at the garage? Er you can ask then. It's those ones where you just flick it around. What were they called? What were they called? Er I, I know arm bands but was it, is there a name for it? Protective arm bands? Flick them. Er Flick arm bands? Flick on bands, yeah Flick on bands? Flick on bands . You want me to go in a garage and ask for, have you got a flick on band! You flick off! You're the one that wants them. Squire car company. Why have they got all Fancy having a car called eggs. E E G S, dad. Oh that's the way you spell eggs. It's not! How far have we got through this tape? Flick it off now. The garage is here. Yeah. Sort of past half way. Can't believe these are only forty five minutes. Cos we've been talking at least there. Mm. This is a tricky one to get in to isn't it? This is the one, you know I went wrong in the B P? This is the one I always think I was thinking about. Yeah? And when I went wrong the other time. What, what other time? You know, went to the Esso and I went all wrong and I couldn't le , I went down a no en Oh yeah. Woman said no way . No way chummy. Oh there you are children should be application forms here. Yeah it's going round. Why must you check, every time? Cos I think sometimes it doesn't . You just sit there thinking you're taping and you're not. Oh. Er how did she get it on there? Pooh. Mummy's gonna say that's very strong, Paul. In fact put it at the back somewhere I think pong. No. Why should we have it in the back? That's it. Really strong innit? Can you put that in the in the glovebox then please. Do you wanna bit of this? No thank you Bounty What's the Egbert fund? I'm supporting the Egbert fund. Do you know it? Looks like er the spastic one. Oh. No we've picked the wrong one there. I don't think we'll pick spice again, do you? No. Ooh! Smells like somebody's lavatory . Looks like you'll have to sort of like put it up for a day and then take it down for a week and put it back in again. It's too much for one day . You shou , perhaps you should have kept the bag on it. You know it's too strong to . You take the bag off, off it after a month or something. Even your Bounty must taste a bit poorly. Yeah? Yeah. Bet the bloke listening to this can hear it smell it. I know. Put it in there. . open the glovebox when we get Yeah. Er hang on though, perhaps that's not so good. I, it might make the sweets taint. Mm. I reckon we'll when, when we get out we'll put it in the boot and it'll filter through through on its own . Ooh dear! How about just keeping it in the bag? It's overcoming me. Yeah. Open your window, quick. Oh look. Panic. Not everybody's window, Paul . Ah! Strewth Pauly. Disgusting. I'll just keep it down there. In the bag. Oh it's disgusting smell. And why did you hit this car? Well you see my son took his magic pongo tree out and I was overcome, thus hitting the car in front. I see Mr . Do you expect us to believe that do you? Yeah . Yes. He is an idiot. Can you leave that alone! I leant on it. Lean out a bit cos I'm shutting the windows again. No I want it. I I hope this traffic jam's not all the way to Croydon. I do so hope. Oh can you imagine what that Purley Way's gonna be like? Forget the s , egg and chips Pauly. Forget mummy's present. Oh what are they having here now? The Christmas fair. At the moment I'm just trying to forget that awful spice stuff. innit? Yeah I think you did wrong. You should, you shouldn't have er yeah. You shouldn't have er opened the packet. It's funny that shop didn't smell of it did it? So I mean the seal must keep it all in until you open it up. Ugh ugh. open it ugh . No it's quite a nice smell if it's like taken out now. We'll put it in the boot or it'll just be sickening on the way home. Yeah. person listening to this tape will probably go ah . I can smell it when I'm listening to it! There's our little football group. Look, it's getting bigger and bigger. What little football group? There! Yeah. Got a lady teaching, got a team to go there. Do you remember that lady that ran the team at er St John's? Yeah. Quite keen. Oh yeah, her. how her little team got on. Whether it folded or not. Probably did. I think a lot of them do. Yeah. You imagine what Purley Way's gonna be like ton , today. Christmas shopping . Awful Oh we're taking forget two o'clock. I said two o'clock we'd be parking. Stopped for petrol I suppose. Yeah but dad, not for that long. So when will we park now? Set an estimate Well look there's an estimation look they're parking, they're queuing on this brow of the hill instead of the other one. Everybody's got Christmas fairs on haven't they? Look, balloons. This is the day. Yeah. No, fifteenth is the day. Or sixth Are we going to ? Yeah. It's the toy service tomorrow isn't it? Is it? Yeah. That really is a strong No it could, you could overcome, I wonder if there's a warning on the packet. Do not open this and drive at the same time. Really heady. On an empty stomach it's made me feel quite queasy. Oh look he's done, someone's done that to his, look, look. Smashed his wing mirror, look jam a glass in it, er sock in it to stop the glass falling out . Oh it's not too bad. Yes Paul. Well really you should have read shouldn't you? Dad! You told me to take it all the way out. Should have got that blue one. I knew that was your fault. Stinks! Yes but you opened it all. Actually I don't even want it anywhere near me. Ah. It's gone all my nose funny now. nose I've got my asthma. Asthma. Asthma. By the way, if you can hear a word I say you're better than I am. Oh get this out. Phew. I'll have to lob that That car's got smile just to annoy everybody . What? Smile, just to annoy everybody that blue Datsun says on What does that, what does that mean? Ooh, yeah be pleasant and ooh. There you are, look, look You can read that ah. I thought you meant that what about the one in front of it then? Baby on board. I can't stand those ones. Can you see? Well I can see I can see the baby. Well a baby is on board. Give them their due. Oh, oh it's made all my throat go all funny. Pay someone to take it away. Very long lasting. Yes, very long lasting. Hang on, I'm just opening the window again. Recording commences at three past two. With . Got a Palace picture on. Man United! Oh. Don't let them out. They can stay there. We hate United. Hello again. Hello, hello, hello. Who is that munching cashews on the tape . Here we go, you go right close, go ah! You wicked trickster you. Would you like a cashew nut? You can't have a cashew nut. Oh come on. I like the big ones. You would. That's me! Mm Tasted nicer ones. Can't afford to eat them like that! Mm can. Mm. Lovely. Should eat them about a quarter at a time. Why are the dearest things the nicest? Don't eat them like that! Mm. I can't, look at you eating them like that. One at a time. Oh look Pauly hot rod. Hot rod! Woo woo, nice. Mm. No! That means give me the packet. Hurry up, come on. What? Quick. Give me the packet please, they're mine. What me? What. Oh that's where you should go for your computer, look. P C World. Yeah. This bit's not so bad. Once you get through that traffic light back there Yeah. it's alright. Mm. Soon as these lights go we should get here, through here quite quickly. Mm. Long lights. I command thee to become orange. Orange. Well it's so long for the . They make them longer during the evenings and Saturday. Orange! And this lot have got to go first haven't they? Mm. Yeah . Quite ridiculous. Far too long. Far too long, yeah. How do people know it's gonna change? They just sort of start their engines still red. changes. Regulars down here I should imagine. Where? Regulars probably who come down here and know Regulars . They can count. Yeah. No they can probably see down the end and they Well these lights used to be quite easy, didn't mind being stopped by them. Now you're petrified of being stopped by any of them cos you know it's Yeah. really long wait. When are they gonna bring those towers down? Don't know. Which way would they tumble them? I don't think they're in any rush to develop now, are they cos this housing business is so poor. whoever's got the land has decided are they boarded off. You can't go up there any more? No. That is so naff isn't it? Putting your scarf across the car like that. I know. What's it say. Crystal Palace. Least it says Crystal Palace. Right. Who shall we, who shall we get What? as a replacement for somebody. Who is there? Who would you like? If we had all the money. Buy Ian Wright back I suppose. No. I'd sell Bright. No I wouldn't sell Bright. I'd buy someone first. Make sure someone was interested in . I'd buy Deane and swap Bright in exchange for Deane. No matter how bad he doesn't like it he's well and truly gutted. Er so him for Deane and Yeah but Deane won't be available till the end of the season. There's no way Sheffield United Er I dunno. just stoking the price up I think. Cos it's not old Bassett now, this is what it's all about. to get the odd draw you need the odd goal and er it's not gonna come from any other people than er Oh yeah, Deane. Deane. But Deane didn't score today. It was Beazley apparently. Beazley. Beazley. Er I might see if I could pick up that Sheffield United guy Jamie Hoyland. He's quite good. As you say the main problem is, as you say is are you going to change your whole team, game Yeah. I don't know. I think they'll do it slowly but not this slowly. I mean I th I think we should have bought someone along with er Gabbiadini to play with him. could just bring him and expect stuff. Mm could you get I think he's gonna have to raid the bottom divisions again, you know. What sort of bottom divisions? he's probably got his eye on . I mean that Coleman was a very good buy wasn't he? Yeah? Yeah. How much did he cost? Three hundred and fifty. Three hundred and fifty. No it wasn't, it was three hundred. It was two Yes it was. Three hundred and fifty. Oh anyway, it was still pretty good wasn't it? Wasn't cheap, I mean No, but I mean you could see play really well . I mean Southgate's all the more pleasing when you think he's somebody that's worked his way up, right? Yeah. That's really nice to see. And he played really well. Southgate is a harder person to mark isn't he? Yeah. I think I'd drop Mortimer oh look, Palace. Red car it's like ours isn't it? Yeah. I'd drop, I'd drop Paul Mortimer Yeah. and have Collymore in right? And encourage that's the trouble, you drop Mortimer you drop somebody who can er flip the ball in but I think you definitely want to take the heat off Wright. Now if if all Collymore does is distract but Mortimer was not playing enough of the game. We can't afford people like Mortimer to, I mean he scored a goal but I mean Yeah. Eddie I think is worth sheer sort of opening teams up. Well he does open, there's no not many players can play a team better like than opening up So what'd you do, say you had back next week so our next game against Birmingham. What would you do then? Well I mean they've got, they've got, he's gotta do something because you're gonna lose that Birmingham game. can see that coming now. But Birmingham must have won today cos they had equal top must have won I would have thought. That's good. Chelsea won one nil. How do you know? You'd have thought Forest would have beaten Chelsea wouldn't you?really annoyed after being Yeah. I suppose so. What are you gonna buy mum? He's gone the whole hog that guy hanging down to his Oh. So what are you gonna buy her? Newbury Fruits? Or something like that, er They did very well with those little tulip hand out things didn't they? There's a lot of people who er don't, who would not have gone to the bother of going into the shop and buying a one pound or two pound or four pound But why did they do well out of them if they were free? Well yeah they're free but they've got their advert on it haven't they? Tulip tulip tulip, I mean you're like a roving little advert aren't you? I mean it, it draws your eye those little pictures doesn't it? You Oh he's got, he's got the hanging one at the front hasn't he? And he's got a badge on the right hand side as well. Yeah. So he really is You see that guy next to us? He's got a Palace earring hasn't he?on one of his ears. Oh my goodness. On his left ear. He's nice though isn't he, wasn't he, he did say something Yeah. I didn't have to say anything. I said to him I don't know, he said did you enjoy yourself Tuesday? Oh I said, did you see us? Oh yeah we saw you. And his dad's nice. Yeah. But that other bloke was there but he wasn't in his normal place. Yes Why wasn't he in his normal place? Palace played really well. The first twenty five minutes, when you think we were one nil up right I thought gosh if we could get that second goal it would have made all the difference and United would have been really would have been in trouble. Was a good game though. Oh I enjoyed it, yeah. Just don't enjoy Palace losing, but sheer football and it just shows you that ironically the two games can match each other and there were chances for Palace to wrap that game up. But er when they do play that ball to ball business erm Yeah. we look like we've got huge spaces in our in our midfield. I mean that's what teams are doing now, they're realizing that's where all our weakness is in midfield so don't take a er a hefty boot and try and er er people like Thorn and I mean Thorn and Young were impeccably they played beautifully today. You cannot ask Thorn and Young, I've never seen two players play they do, they did th , they do the simple thing but they do it consistently well. Over and over again, maybe a hundred, hundred and fifty times in one match and they'll make one mistake and usually like Coleman was there to c , I think Coleman backed up well and Gareth backed up well once or twice. But defence wise superb. Absolutely su , there was a lapse with that guy, don't know who was to blame about that third goal but I mean It was Young. Er Young let it plop over Oh, didn't see who it was. It was like, it was like a, like they were waiting for an offside or some there were just couldn't believe, it was But it was the same when Palace scored and exactly the same thing happened didn't it? Why do they lapse? It's weird. Yeah, it's well they do say both sides that it's the most dangerous time straight after a goal. I mean often, times you see teams equalize immediately. You know it's like, you sometimes you can go a whole game like seventy minutes of a game and no-one's had a goal scoring chance Yeah. and then someone scores and the guy goes in straight calmly and scores straight away. You know it's people aren't Yeah. I don't know, it's psychologically sort of still got their mind on going through what's er On what happened. Yeah. It's like at school when they're thinking oh no, no and they've scored again. It's like you've scored, you're so elated and you Fact you you often sort of watch videos of managers. Managers are often shrieking you know about what's happening next rather than you know, all their players are jumping with joy all over each other and you think and they're saying get in your positions. Do your stuff. Don't let it slip straight away, I mean That was annoying thing is that we didn't deserve to lose three one really, I mean Sneak that that box of sweets in then for mum . I bet she knows you've done that for her. Eh? I bet she knows you've bought that for her. Well she knows that we're giving her something, yes. I mean we could have been worse, could have forgotten completely. I mean it's easy, cos when mum gets all those things for everybody else, clearly she doesn't get something for herself. Don't know why not. What did you get her last year? It was the same thing wasn't it? No I didn't get, we didn't do this did we, last year? Yes we did. We always have the tree presents. Do we? Our sunroof's pretty isn't it? You what? Our sunroof's pretty isn't it? Very stylish. What's the time? This very busy road, isn't it? I suppose so. busier. seems to be very busy So does the other way. Yeah. Because of mum. where the heck are we. hundred percent better Yeah you were well fluky then, getting the How come that shop had them and the other one didn't? you wouldn't believe it would you? No. nice big posh shop like and it's got cheap Yes. and nasty in it. Yes. Hope you're enjoying it. follow you up It would be real boring just listening to a load of rubbish wouldn't it? I mean making up conversations all over the place. Suddenly it clears this bit. What you're memory? No this road. Oh, this road. Why? Dunno some go off that way I mean, let, some people go up go off where? Where is it leading to? Don't know. I don't really know. What's all this, why does Meltis always have that stand of eighty, eighty years? Well it's how long they've been going, I suppose. Surely they've been for the last four years and they must or do they just keep it at eighty one then they go to ninety? I don't know. I've never noticed that badge before. Hallo how many miles have we done? sixteen thousand one hundred and sixty. How many did we have when we bought it? How long ago Fourteen thousand how long ago was it that we bought it? September. September? Ages ago. Yeah. twelve thousand miles Twelve thousand? No way, not at eight. What if we lose at Birmingham Paul. Will you wanna go to the Chelsea match? What Chelsea match? Well the Chelsea match is the following Tuesday. Is that yes. Yeah. Yeah. And what Saturd , what's the match on Saturday before squeezed in between that? What? I don't really know. Er erm is there a game on Saturday? I think there might be. Oh I've got it, I've got it. It's come to me. It's come to me. It's come to me. Oh not a big team is it, again? Tottenham. Oh no! Oh no it's not Tottenham. No, you know when we played our Birmingham replay? Yeah. That night we were gonna play Tottenham. Were we? Mark told me that. It was on his picture list. Really? That night we were gonna play Tottenham Oh well. in the league. Oh sorry. Perhaps we can play Tottenham when they haven't got er Gary Lineker in their games any more. Yeah. You start hitting periods like this and you think oh no. You think every team you start worrying about almost every side don't you? Yeah. Oh we always worry about every side cos Crystal Palace always hate the bad sides. Cos usually we do well against the Man United and as soon as we start losing against them we start getting worried. They outplayed us last season at fairground didn't they? Liverpool What do you mean at Liverpool? What did Liverpool do to them then? Well we lost no we beat them two one Yeah. I remember that. Most surprising result of that season. Not really. Was it? It is when you see us struggling against Birmingham. What do you think the score's gonna be against Birmingham? Three one to Palace. Three one to Palace? Be great if that is. We will score first. They will equalize and we'll score two more. We have got to get another goalgetter. I mean old erm does his bit crossing and splitting defences and getting goals but not scoring them. What do you mean, getting goals and then not Now, well now it's just now we've got nobody who, who score actually really scores goals except Thomas I would say at the moment. We really do need somebody who regularly pops them in. What about Gabbiadini? What about Gabiadini? Well he's coming along. I don't see him I think he he had a really good first half I think it like, I think that to be fair, apart from Coleman an Southgate everybody faded in the second half didn't they? Yo. Yo Yeah. What's that, Man United fans? Wallington. Where's Wallington? Oh that's boring. Why are we going this way then? Are, are Manchester United not the most cockiest fans going aren't they? They really are cocky . Yeah. Leeds, I like Man United, I don't, I don't hate them or anything I just, they get a bit I dunno. Mind you not that they've had an awful lot of success recently but they are, really are a cocky lot. Leeds are aggressive so you're always quite glad that you've beaten them but . Specially with Palace I think they seem to think but they really . Should have finished them off in that first Yeah Can I just flick the light on for a second? Thank you. Yes, see who I mean I can't think of anybody who's in the reserves who could do any better than the lot that are in, in at the moment. Can you? Other than perhaps give Colleymore a full blooded game, right? Doesn't he get a full blooded game at the moment? I think perhaps it's, it's worth it now. The season, I mean we're not gonna come top of the league are we? Right? We've gotta make sure we stay in the first division but I think we can afford to blood Colimore as a good one now. He could have this whole of this season to get used to playing, right? Yeah. And then who knows what fireworks could happen the season after. I mean he's never gonna be a when he's obviously another Bright. Who wants another Bright? We're supposed to to the better style of play. No, I don't know. Well why did we buy Gabiadini? Why? What would be the point of buying Gabiadini? No, well I, I mean you saw the point really. I mean to pick I mean who, who who could replace ? He's, I, he, the way he plays is virtually unique, isn't he? So I mean you're not gonna say well let's go and get another Ian Wright off the peg so fair enough. But er in the kind of situation where Ian Wright was very very good was in tight situations. differently through se sheer speed and but er I can see Gabiadini I mean Ian Wright never flicks like some of the flicks that he does. I mean some of the flicks are fantastic. But erm there is a nice side to his game but god he doesn't half fade. Can you afford somebody that fades like that, I don't know it's The whole team fades at the moment. I, I, that's what I would do. I'd drop Mortimer now and er keep, I wouldn't, I'd keep McGoldrick up don't have him as a sweeper. I mean if you're gonna have McGoldrick as a sweeper then you'd have to bring Mortimer back but Why not I noticed it was quite odd that he didn't use McGoldrick as a sweeper did he? I mean we, we went out to win that game didn't we, again? Well, don't you think? Yeah. We didn't play a and yet the defence played well enough. So I think drop Mortimer and bring Colimore in for a full ninety minutes and then and and again and again and again. Get sort of like half a dozen games. I think drop Bright Colimore. Well. I mean Bright, I mean Well yes, you could say, yes you've got, you've got an excuse to drop Bright. Bright's tired. You could say Bright is absolutely tired. He looks tired at the moment. Just drop Bright . There's no need to drop Mortimer. Not when he's playing well. Mm yes. Well he, he didn't play well in the second half though did he? I don't think. He sort of Give me a player that did, outside Yes, well, yes. Coleman and Southgate. Well it it was one of the, I mean when you saw Oh look, that's where Fergie made those funny faces. Oh and you didn't see that did you?in the paper . Look Croydon Caterham valley. eyes. Christmas presents. Er one thing, what's the name of this record you want? Enya. It's in the, it's in I think it's number nine in the hit parade What's it called? What's Enya's record called now Paul? Eh? Enya's record? Shepherd's . It's number nine wasn't it? What? Nine, wasn't it? Number nine. I don't remember What's the cover look like? It was number three when I It's silvery. Greyish. It's not silvery it's blue. Is it? It was green last time you I asked you. Enya anyway. Are you celebrating your birthday tomorrow? Well Paul was asking this, when well I'll have some presents. Whoever comes, brings me in we'll open those. Do you want yours opened ? I'll open one in the morning I think. Up to you, what do you think? I don't mind . So you'll take Paul to church in the morning will you? Alright. Well you can drop him off and pick him up. I could do, yeah. Now you've found my keys for my I really need to get those What's that he's got? What's that? My . You bought it? Yeah. More money than sense. Wonder what he looks like now? How old was he there? Nineteen sixty eight, so that's twenty three years ago. He was only twenty three then I should think. Let us have a bit of the paper. Listen to this. Absent minded spinsters Beryl and Doris lost their car in a repair shop . Yeah I know! I read that. The sisters are eighty and eighty one reported the mini stolen And bought another one. got the er three months later they received thirteen hundred pound pay off from insurance Commercial Union and promptly bought a replacement car. But when they booked their new car into Tristar Motors for its first service, they found their old model waiting for them . That is dreadful garage that didn't phone to find out why they hadn't picked it up though, isn't it? I'd have thought Unless they lost their address. Hee hee hee hee. I mean the fact that this come out is that the That was in the Mail That was in the Mail. Yeah but the fact it's come out is that they've been honest. Isn't it? Right? Yes. You could have kept that quiet, anyway. Oh I should think the garage publicized it. I remember this one. Who's that? Kinks isn't it? Ray Davies? Yes. Tears of a Clown. No it isn't. No I know but he, that's what he's famous for isn't it? Tears of a Clown. I bet someone's vid , I bet Alan's videoing all these. Put them all together. Look at the sets in in sixty eight . You could, as the camera goes by you can see where all the sellotape and the gum's stuck to boxes. I mean look at those boxes. Just just scrappy old blue looks like something the art college has knocked up. Who is that? Moody Blues isn't it? Is it? Ha ha you used to look like that. They all look like Allied Carpet salesmen now don't they ? I mean they looked old then don't they? I mean you didn't have sixteen, seventeen year olds in those days coming through did you? They were sort of like Mm. I mean look at those boxes. You can see all the sellotape and the bubbles and Where? Oh you've got poor eyesight then. We need a new aerial. Where's the other bit of paper? Which other bit of paper? Croydon Advertiser? Yeah, well which bit have you got there? There you are. Has it got the adverts in it? Jaws is on telly Paul. Er? Jaws is on tonight? Jaws is on. Included The Who, The Small Faces, The Move, The Kinks, The Moody Blues and Jimi Hendrix. Absolute rubbish on television. That's what Merle said. Now House of Elliott's finished she's got nothing to watch. I bet she's watching Bugsy Malone. Did you hear that, Winston Churchill's doing Bugsy Malone? Oh. And Catherine's in it and that er I said ooh haven't you seen it Merle, she said no. I said ooh I've got the video. She said well what's it like. I said ooh you'll either find it really funny or you wouldn't find it funny at all but erm How could you not find it funny? Catherine well I can see that Oh! I can imagine that Tom would find it funny. I said it's a very good film. Anyway Catherine's got a very small part in it. She's a German reporter or something. Which I couldn't even remember a German reporter . A German? I said what do you work for Fat Sam? I don't think she knows it very well. She said she's seen the film but none of the other family have seen it. You know. Where they, they're having a fight and they've got all the different people in the news like Chinese people go and there's fights and then they get, there's custard pies thrown at them. Oh yeah. And Germany going boom boom boom boom That's just gonna make an awful mess on stage isn't it if they ? Is that all she's got to do? Yeah. She said it's a very small part. They go pow they've got french people being fired at I wonder if they'll have the er custard pie part in it? Oh yeah? Splurge guns. Splurge guns ? Yeah. Splurge guns. Oh look. Pete Townshend. The Who. I met Liz in er Woking Paul. I met Liz in Woking. stall made over seventy pounds. And Jo won a major raffle prize. Liz said isn't it typical. She won a huge box of groceries. Liz said I won a raffle prize. I said oh what did you win? She said well it was down to the last two she said, I had a choice between a red and green cushion or a fitness test. Ah! So she said I took the fitness test. I said you don't need a fitness test Liz . She was waiting for her husband. Her husband's much older than her. Her husband Well she could be her father. Oh no. Well he's he's fifty five. He is fifty five. That's why she's talking about him retiring isn't it? Yeah but I mean she looks about fifty five to me . Liz! She's younger than you isn't she mum? Actu no she probably is forty five but she only looks She's not younger than us. about forty. The way she carries herself makes her look I I thi feel I look I I feel thirty so I mean I always think And Liz makes herself look I thought that was very interesting that She's so fit though. Oh look it's all when The Who used to smash their rec , all their, I mean that used to be disgusting. What are they doing? They used to break up all their things on stage. Dreadful isn't it? Why? Well that's what pop groups used to do. They went to total excess and then they had to come back the other way. Well look at them now. Well one died. The guy, the drummer just drove his car into the swimming pool didn't he and drowned. What the one that drums there. Yes Paul. Not the one holding his guitar. what's he trying to smash it all up for! Well that's what they did! They were only old instruments. They didn't smash up anything valuable. Why did he drive his car into the swimming pool? Well that was the point. I think they did. Oh. Why don't you ever pick up the freebie papers? They've got the property in, I'm always interested in those. Is he still alive, Pete Townshend? Yes. Cor look! Christmas shopping in Croydon Tuesdays and Thursdays. And the week before Christmas Monday Tuesday Thursday Friday. He's dead though Jimmy Hendrix isn't he? Yes. He's dead. Look here Paulie, you come and have a look at this. This is Crystal Palace going up in f flames. November the thirtieth nineteen thirty six. Look, there's the shape of Crystal Palace. Gutted in one night. Were you alive then dad? No I was not. You said you could see it. You lying hound. No that was the that was the furniture repository. No you said Yeah that was the furniture repository nothing about the crystal palace . No Thank you ma. I'd nearly forgotten that. I thought how on earth did I get myself You plonker . stuck in that one. No ages ago you said you saw it. We've been to the site haven't we? Eh? site. The site is where the zoo is. Oh I'm taking the phone up to phone my sister. I'll stop the tape and clock, with the children. We were Christmas shopping can you imagine Six hours! Awful. So I said what have you got it all then?she's bought your present but she can't post it. She said it's heavy What is it? so you might be getting something else. It's quite a nice book. So I So she's gonna buy Simon either chocolates dairy miniatures Yeah. or a supply of chocolate miniatures. Or a supply of caps for his gun. Can you pull the curtain please Paul. What a big supply? Do you reckon that's quite a good idea? Yeah. A supply of caps for his gun. Twelve Yeah I told her twelve . Or roll cap. Make sure it's Oh yeah. It's two new guns. One takes roll cap and one takes Well we've got plenty of roll cap haven't we? We've got a wadge of roll cap. That's Yeah but, the rate he you know goes through it. She might as well buy a year's supply. She doesn't know what to buy, she might as well buy something useful mightn't she? Yes it's true. There's no point in wasting six or seven pounds. No. As far as I can understand anyway. I said or a teddy that does something. So she's bought me this book? She had already bought it before she phoned dad this morning, so But she's not gonna buy, give me the book though? She says it's too heavy to post. So she's not gonna give me the book? Well she might, but you might have to wait till after Christmas for it. But she's gonna send something else? I'm not sure. No you might be old enough to be considered you can wait till after Christmas for your present. Paul I'd like you to do a job. I've done a job. I've been round to Merle's. No. I'd like you to do a proper job. I'd like you to take a sponge and I'd like you to clean the paintwork on the stairs. Please. What about touching up? I'll touch up. I've done the touching up. So why does it need ? You won't help will you. I don't feel that it's worth doing. Trophy holders Palace are now just three steps away from another trip to Wembley. Oh that's good isn't it? Three steps You're not going this time. We are. Yes we are. I don't think we'll get there actually. Chelsea kicked us out last time. Chelsea won today. Yeah I know. Against the team we lost five one to last week. Oh you can imagine what it's gonna be like tonight. What I was glad of, we didn't play poorly. I didn't think we played poorly. No you didn't. You played Manchester United. Ha ha ha ha report on the telly? Yeah they showed you that, yeah. Have you heard it? No, we'll have a look at it, I think Paulie missed it. Kanchelskis scored that third goal. It was a really funny goal wasn't it? I know. I didn't see that. I didn't see who scored. scored the second? Hughes I think. What's on ? You'll have to listen to it then. Oh Oh hang on you didn't see no goals you didn't see? No. Oh. Oh I s , it was on telly? Rewind a bit then. Right. I do rewind it. reading teletext Oh you were right, McClair Paulie. Kanchelski Kanchelskis Sorry? Kannchelsk ? Sshh. Did they tell you how he was? Did they tell you how he was? No. Can we have a look at the, we'll have a look at the results cos I didn't see er no no not that lot. Turn all of it off. Thank you for that bit. I thought you meant Teletext. No I thought she caught the film. Actually there was a little bit, they showed you the four goals on the television so they might show it on the nine o'clock Where did they, what, when did they show you on the telly? n news. No! Do you know what he was doing in the car? With the speaker? I th he thought I didn't, couldn't see. He was going ooh ooh ooh. That poor person What do you want? on the end of that tape. What do you want ? I want er He hasn't got a clue what he wants. Eh? . What do you want? Let's have one results weekend league programme. Let's have a look at One five one Got the gates on there, look. Twenty nine thousand. Is that a lot? Well apparently it's gone up. It says in this paper that last they could only they could only hold twenty seven. But now apparently there's a, this with this seating or something there's now can hold thirty one. And it wasn't completely full was it? Paulie? No. So it could just, probably just squeeze th So Liverpool's got the biggest capacity has it? They could just get thirty thousand in there. I think thirty one's a bit So Liverpool's got the biggest capacity has it? Oh Manchester United would no Manchester United have er oh at home yeah. Liverpool can hold about forty two Manchester City twenty two That's pretty low nearly all those were with home fans weren't they? What? Well Manchester City versus Wimbledon. Nearly all those will be home fans. Wouldn't they? Yes. Twenty two and a half thousand! Ooh. And Manchester City are doing well don't forget. I knew, good old Wimbledon. That's how they stay up. That's how Wimbledon stay up. They go up to those games Nil nil. and they make it nil nil they've drawn wi , now with Manchester City and Liverpool in two successive weeks, nil nil. You cannot break them down. that's why we stay quite near the top. Wasn't it? Oh! Well Villa went above us. Or Villa are above us. We're sixth. Yeah I know. No they can go above us. They always was above us. But they're above us on cos our goal average must look absolutely diabolical now. The goal average must Paul. Watch my lips. It was Wednesday that went ahead of us. Go and turn the television off in the kitchen please. Gosh Oldham, good old Oldham. Did us a favour there then didn't they? Now! West Ham did us no favours. One two ah ee oh ee ah . Can I have one five two What do you go like this. Press the red button. Cor! Barnsley beat Newcastle three nil Paul. What's so weird about that? Well poor old Newcastle. What? Brighton beat Plymouth. Four nil was the biggest score. Yeah. Who won four nil? Well Tranmere lost four nil at Ipswich. Oh that was Southend won again. They've gone up I mean who would have thought that Tranmere would have lost four nil? Who would have thought that when you drew Southend in a cup, you think oh great we'll thrash them. They'll be could be a first division team next season. How come? Southend? They're about fourth or fifth. Sowfend. They won again! Oh Swindon slipped again. They should have won that, against Grimsby. That is so unlucky, Ian. Will they be home by now? Eight o'clock, they're hoping to get home. Er yeah I bet Four nil . Still. Poor kids. Oh I feel sorry for them. Yeah. You get used to it if you support Palace but Shut it! I was just gonna say, what games have we lost? We are getting used to it, I mean there was a coup , a sea , last season we had Five one you lost not long ago! Yeah but I mean last season we hardly, Paulie and I hardly ever used to come home having lost. Now we're starting to get used to it. Now you lot. What have we lost at home, Paulie, this season? Come on. A lot. Arsenal. Yes. Man United. Is that all? Oh and you lost No hang on. That's the two we've seen. Have we lost any others? Oh well we can't complain then, only two. Are you sure? Q P R we were preciously close. Birmingham we were preciously close. Here you are, programme here. They hit the crossbar as well. Oh yeah we lost against West Ham as well. Yes. I thought we did. I was sure, I thou West Ham? I know. That was that was annoying. We should not have wo , lost that. You'll soon be losing against Birmingham. Birmingham. Well they there's another stupid mistake here! Birmingham City L C three R. They've got us down that we won! One nil. Yeah their stat statisticians are going mad. Yeah. Statisticians. Would you like page now? Yeah, page three. There were lots of draws. Thirteen draws. Oh look. Birmingham won two nil. Oh oh. Look at the gate they get. Ooh. I don't really know. Bury one thousand eight hundred and eighty six people! Dreadful isn't it? Who's that with seventeen thousand? Wow West Brom. See West Brom, really a first division team. They shouldn't be in the third division. the figures is irrelevant isn't it? Yeah. The figures are irrelevant. Tradition that is, West Brom. Just tradition. They're getting bigger Even if they went out the league they'd get that number. Yeah. Yeah. I've been a West Brom supporter They wouldn't be able to afford to keep the ground on would they? all my life. What? They wouldn't be able to afford to keep the ground on if they went out Well I mean it shows you what marvellous West Brom were. When West Brom got lost four nil to Woking wasn't it Paulie? The next round they had West Brom supporters supporting, came down from Yeah. Birmingham to support Woking in the next round. Yeah. It's pretty good isn't it? But that's all much of a muchness isn't it? Nothing over four. No. was right. We er we would have played Tottenham on the night of the Q P R game. Oh. I got mixed up with . He said Q P R . Did Woking play? wasn't. We only played them away. Yes. What Woking did play? Yes well Paulie said they did. They played What did they do? What did they do? Oh I've got to see what they did. Got to see what they did. Two hundred and seventy five people watching . Oh I thought Woking were at Gateshead. I am so desperate to see what they did. Well that's it. There aren't any more results. Hearts won again. What about one five seven? There aren't any more results! They don't have they don't have amateur do they? Yes they do. Try can you try number one please. There's one off for fog. Fog? Oh yeah there it is. Berwick East Ham. Can you go to number one one five eight. one five seven. What would you like dear? I would like B B C one please. This is her. There's But the Linekers had better go home. They can't stay and look at the, that child all the time can they? I mean it's gonna be weeks isn't it? They've arrested it now haven't they? There's noth there's nothing on number one about it at all. Oh. Sport football Saturday review. League table. Non leagues Ipswich Three eight. Jemson saves the . Now we should have picked him up. Why didn't we pick him up? He just floated over Sheffield Wednesday, honestly. That's . Are you sure Woking ? Should be the next page Yeah. The premiere. This is so I tell you what I'm gonna run out of here and go boogey boogey Oh if they've won they've done it. Five nil! Oh it just Five nil. Oh yes ! They're just walking away with that division. It's a waste of time. The whole Do you know what said to me? He said Are they top of that division? Yeah. that Enfield, he was going, he said that Enfield would beat them five nil. That was his words. Enfield are the second team. And they've won five nil. They're about, that that makes them nineteen points in the lead. Ludicrous! So what happens? They go into the Vauxhall league next year? Yeah, they'll be definitely in the . That's in their division five couple of seasons la we could be fourth division team. Couple of seasons! If Crystal Palace don't succeed you could be playing Woking. Shut it. Love it. That means if they, they'll go up this season Shall we pack up supporting Palace and go to Woking Paulie? Yes. I'd pay for that. I'll pay for Very funny. a Woking season ticket free, for nothing. I I've done a tu turncoat once already so it's easier for me . There's nothing on Lineker there at all. Yet other times I think we should go and watch Woking more often. What? You mean like every other week? Yeah, when we're not watching Yeah No I think I think we should take go to some more Woking evening games dad. Oh do you? Yes! I mean we've never been to it. Have you ever watched Woking play? No. I want to. Lineker. The condition of the baby son of England's football is poorly but stable. That was yesterday's. Ah oh that's exactly what the other one said. Poorly but stable. That was on six o'clock this morning that was on. Two people died Oh . Can I just watch this please? Ugh it's Jaws. It's gross. Guys getting eaten. it or something? No. You don't need to hear the music. Ugh that's horrible. This is a horrible film Jaws. Look it's got somebody's body in its It's only a plasticine model. Gross! But I I would just like to see how awful the graphic He's died. His mate's died look. I think he's dead. Ooh! Gone under. Took him under. Oh no! Can I see? I I don't mind watching it without the noise. Gosh quick. They're leaking. Please mum. Oh That's in the studio. It's all in the studio isn't it? Oh no it's not. I mean the the plasticine sharks are stupid. Oh the story of this particular one is that it er er they tried to make out that the erm that the the the the shark has actually got something against the human beings on this boat and it keeps chasing them. Here it comes again. There's in a studio, that bit. Look out here it comes. Look it's gonna knock her right off. He spots it. Ugh. Ugh. Going through all the previous ones. These plasticine models are so awful . Yeah they look gross now don't they? Oh they are quite lifelike. Oh god it's broken. Oh you can see it's a model can't you? Ugh it's swallowed it. My stones didn't come out very shiny. I like these bits where there's a shot which goes down . So can I start wearing my dressing gown before Christmas then? No. It's got to be wrapped up. So has your, you can't have your song book either till after Christmas. Oh, I don't mind that. Ugh the towel's dirty. Ruthus we're taping . We're not gonna know the person who's going to listen. Geoffrey Chaucer's here again. speaking into microphone He keeps going Geoffrey Chaucer's here . But we saw the best bit Paulie. The last five minutes . Have you turned it off? No, it was the last you know the dramatic end that everybody who's been waiting for watching that film from seven o'clock till that off? Er? You haven't turned that off? No. Oh. It records everything Ruthie. Why is this dirty again? All of Yeah mum has got a towel dirty. I'm fed up with you. I keep putting it in there, clean one. But the towel's for wiping your hands on. Don't blame me! It's not my fault. I'm just Geoffrey Chaucer. The famous poet Canterbury Tales. Where art thou Jonathon. Where art thou Jonathon . Do you want to do any jobs. I've got to finish my quiz off. Must do that map. Disgusting, Jaws the movie. Too gory for Geoffrey Chaucer even. Paul I think you should go to bed now. Yeah. No way dudes. Busy day tomorrow, yes? No way dudes. You've got to be joking. We'll wait till the end of the tape and then you can go. You have gotta be joking man. Boogey boogey. Zachramondo dudes . I think Paulie's invalidating most sides by total and utter gibberish. Well isn't that what they want to know? Eh? What the mental cases in Woking totally illiterate. mumalissimo I used some big words on the way down. We're Italian now. Mumalissimo where are you bonjourdino. Oh Paul don't be silly! Go to bed if you're going to be silly. Go and learn your words for tomorrow. bought one of those stinky old er pine tree things and Paulie ripped the whole wrapper off it Oh! Spice. and we nearly died. It nearly overcame us. I bet you did. It nearly over , we were in danger of going off the road with it. It was so strong Why did you let him? I put it in the boot. Why did you let him? I think it'll have to be put in the garage and then put in the car once a week or something. Why did you let him do it? I dunno. Unsupervised as you would say. You've got no control over him at all have you? Oh yeah mum wouldn't have done it would she? You'd ripped the wrapper before We had the wrapper off last time. No we didn't. Yes we did! No, you pull it out a bit at a time, not just No, but we had it off last time. Yeah the spice was was not nice . The spice wasn't half as nice as So it's it's totally wasted then is it? Totally wasted. It would have been disgusting anyway. Is it totally wasted then? Yes. Yes. No well no it's usable. Absolutely fantastic wastage. Wimbledon got got the right royal rave. Watch the super dons flatten the . The white what rave? The . How come they use the same box office, I suppose they would wouldn't they? Seven seven one. Oh it must be funny working for Palace at the moment. You think you're doing well and you get hold of another Oh I get it. Royal royal? Mm. Joe Royle? yeah. Can I watch it, can I read it? Eh? No. Watch, I'm reading my paper now. You're always reading it. Oh look you always get these people we have just witnessed the top London club suffering a humiliating defeat at the hands of . Oh this looks good, let's see. Is it horror? Don't know. Now you'll see the goals on this, now. Because it was on the other B B C one so it should be on this one as well. You saw them? Yeah. All four goals. When? Here's a letter that m mistakenly done today. It says it says it now seems painfully obvious that after our performance at Forest we have reached the stage where teams have finally worked us out. For some time we've been in a false position and our two games against Birmingham have confirmed this . Dunno why they're saying this bit. Steve may explain the game at Saint Andrews was for low to ground players . Don't well they. But surely by now we have a squad to deal with such eventualities. We have clearly lost our way in both fullback positions . Well that wasn't true today. Our two fullbacks played the best of the Palace players, I thought. Both were, couldn't been asked any more of. Both saved instant goals. Er both got feet in just as goals were about to be shot and scored. This is er ob now obvious after it's aft as it is restricting our attacking options. What possible reason is there for not playing Bodin? A proven player of international quality who enjoys going forward. We are told that we have to pay Swindon another fifty thousand if he plays. But if we went out of the cup it could cost us more in lost revenue. Come clean Steve. Swallow your pride. Play Bodin in the position you bought him for and show off our defence that otherwise will leak goals like two seasons ago . It's not true. Bodin's I don't reckon's as good a defender as that. He's a good passer of the ball have him in the middle. Well where then? Dunno. Well we cou , he might be able to use him if Thomas can't play erm on Tuesday. I can well believe Thomas won't be fit for Tuesday now. Not after ricking his ankle like that. If his ankle's any, half as bad as mine he wouldn't play on Tuesday. I chose the right Tuesday to go then didn't I? It wouldn't be very good without Jeff Thomas there would it? No. Who do you reckon will be captain then? He's gonna have steroids for it. Who'd be captain? Pardon Ruth . He's gonna have steroid injections in his Ankle. You mean steroid, do you? Yeah. She does. I do, I think. Aha. What they, what they deflate your swelling quicker do they? Yeah. Yeah who would er be the captain? Humphreys isn't it? He's not playing. I suppose Young would be wouldn't he? Thorn Thorn's been captain before now as well hasn't he? Thorn and Young! Couldn't cr er complain about that. It didn't look like, you have a look at this goal. Didn't look like Young's problem. Put a tape in Paulie just in get a tape quick. And see if we can tape this th th th last time they showed all four goals. Clearly B B C I see , No. Is this on I T V separate? Are you there? Are ready to record straight away, bumph with the record button? Just a minute. He wants to do this rap thing doesn't he? Oh yeah. I want to Yeah but still going all night while you were Yeah ha. out Will you chew those? You've been a very good boy right ha flowers are floppy We can record one of the party then can't we? Yep. You can get loads out of that could you cos people will just forget it. Yeah so except you've got to list everybody's name. Yeah but then list the name, then list the names of the next home tape again they'll think it's Yeah but you're supposed to listen to it all off and see. Oh no ridiculous isn't it! Well no so they can identify the people, isn't it. Yeah but then yo er in a party situation you could probably do that in the first minutes couldn't you, I would have thought everybody in th room will have spoken in the first five minutes wouldn't they? So I've just gotta jot it down quickly then. Yeah Oh we've got more this time Yeah well when I saw Alison's lo the flan recipes, I panicked. Aha. Right all those need slicing and buttering and putting on there. Right, better do that then so is that or kilo? hundred ha there's a tomatoes. Gosh! I'll make some sandwiches can you feel that's soft enough, if you don't like that This Well no I got butter No I'll put that on it's easier save that for your Mum put them on here did you say? Yeah This tray? Yeah, I'll just put this out. I think these flans will freeze so what we don't need What've they got in them though? Got any little flags for what they've got in them? This one is prawn and pepper Paprika? Pu no well red pepper with paprika sprinkled on. Yeah. And this is egg and bacon and mushroom a little piece of cheese Orville! Well really, looks like I've only done two each but I think I'll freeze I'll only cut two up lovely! I might be able to eat that where's the little Want the sharp black knife? What do you want the little one for? You said the black knife, you said. I said the sharp one this one he's fairly cheap but they use him a lot,. Alright and don't burn them then. I think they burn very easy Do you think everyone will dress up today? Don't cut them completely in half like that. Well I have. Well, oh best if you cut them almost to the end like that then butter them and stick them back together again Have I got that cream? I've sort of forgot about the puddings there's blackcurrant torte up there, can you see? And I've two Ooh yeah! black tiny black forest gateaux, but they're here for tea aren't they so Well no need well yes I do tha you've done this before, that this buffet thing, it's quite nice, people can sort of like, if they're staying they can just say y leave it out and you sa eat whenever you want to really innit? Oh Nigel! I haven't got a pie slice . So did I hear you say to your Mum that there's gonna be a ra exactly the same rap at a Well it sounds the same couldn't believe it! Is there sugar in my coffee? No sorry, I only put, well you got one I suppose if they know that this rap thing won't last long It won't last long will it, so it's all gotta No be done this year she's it could've been saying well it she could've been done last year but we've not done this year, be gone. No it's funny unle I Mum says is it something that's just been published this year you know, like if someone just published No. and everyone jumped on the bandwagon, or have they all made up their own? That is the whole point of rap they're completely personal it's a personal rap. Well Michael says you haven't been to a decent service for six weeks, till back. So we went so and so, that was dreadful! We went so and so, that was dreadful! can put your finger on it though,it it's like it's not what it used to be. That's it well tha there's Peggy says I said oh well I'm a bit erm worried about taking them and I said they have been known to get up and walk out, and said, surely not! But Peggy says well why shouldn't they walk out, if they're that old and they're don't li why shouldn't they get up and walk out ? I thought Peggy, I ah. I don't think they, they don't walk out of we of er er er er er Por They wouldn't of , no. Portis Head there it's too in ten tenuous . But in a way, I i i is it better for them to walk out than seethe and you know, I sa are you putting a bit much on there? Tricia says it's not butter Are we exchanging Christmas presents today, did you ascertain that off your Mum? I don't know not really. I've got them No I think sh We've gotta give them to them today have we Andy and Michelle? I seem to remember she says she's gonna do that on the fourteenth. What Christmas presents, same time as the Golden Wedding? Mm, think so. What at her rap? Suppose so give them, I mean I don't think they're gonna be opened then. Right. As I said, If I remember right, I said well when are you gonna come and see us before? She said on the fourteenth, you know and give it to you then. Well who's gonna come and see us eh? Mum and what's it and presumably, Michelle and Andy can give out presents that day as well, can't they, cos they'll be there. Mm. Where do I put the ready? Well I'm gonna give Mutty that cake today , just pile them up Do you think twenty four's enough to do to begin with? I think there is. There is? Ju oh. For twelve people. Pile them up. Do twelve egg ones, please. Should never have told Bill. was coming with clingfilm but stick the rest in there What are you eating? Gotta take box to school and I can't be bothered, cos you've got the car tomorrow haven't you? Mhm a three day week. You've got the car Friday, and you got the car Wednesday? this butter's Cos you're going down to aren't you on Wednesday? Oh yes. Or are you not? Have you sent Val a postcard? Yes. Are you going to or not? I didn't say I'd come and see him No. on Wednesday No. But I did say, I'd come and say on the the Christmas show so Well have you sorted out your holiday? yeah I well I I did say that I was gonna play badminton then go away and sort out that when I see Ian On the Wednesday? And have you sorted out your holiday? How many holidays you got left? I've only got No I haven't two days left Er yeah I'm sure I have. So if you go to the Christmas do on nineteenth then you just bring Simon home with you afterwards, I think don't you? But you need to tell Zoe. Right. Cos he finishes at four o'clock on that day anyway. Mm. So you just bring them home at lunchtime or something give him a Can you do that, yeah? Yeah we did it last year cos I broke up the day before last year all of mine still at school that day. Right Got a roll of film for the camera? What for? Well don't you need it to be here? Oh what on the nineteenth? She go yeah. That's a long time ahead two weekends to go You ought to see how badly that can't you when you ha ha three bits on there suppose you could do that now couldn't you? Better than what I'm doing any of it though. If you allow a bit like . Yeah. I don't think I'll pie, you're right put out mince pies we didn't win on the pools, I've checked I'll throw away the coupon or do you wanna see what you got? Have you checked the aways is it? Yes, they're all the aways written out on the top B T shareholders, do you want this? No thank you. Next week pools coupon? Yep. Crystal Palace cam Coppell campaigns. Mm, keep that where did the C draw voucher go by the way? Somewhere. That one being drawn twenty six of November what's that one, that's Park School. Oh I must see If I can er Bob and Mum not Karen and but Mum . Does Mike have some er Georgian Hotel, look at that Christmas jokes, Daddy, Eddie's broken my new dog how did he do that I hit him on the head with it Why is Father Christmas unemployed? Maybe you know that one, cos he got the sack. We've both seen that one Ruth, is it alright? Why? Oh no Fred With your way you put your foot in it isn't it, oh yes perfectly harmless no malice meant there at all but you try and convince somebody of that. Fred it's rude to keep reaching over the table for the mince pies, haven't you got a tongue in your head? Yes, but my arm's longer Oh it's the Christmas crossword I could photocopy that for the children. Where do you get that from? Oh look how about a Christmas customs, I wonder if the answers are in the back what kind of fruit sauce is traditionally eaten with turkey? Cranberry. A well known Christmas decoration was the sacred plant of the druids what is an advent calendar? Was the sending of Christmas cards introduced, one one eight two, one eight four six, or nineteen O three? Oh let's do that, I like that one What event does a celebrate? There's ten questions well look up, what's wanted, can you match these nursery rhyme features with suitable Christmas presents Humpty Dumpty, Old Mother Hubbard, Wee Willy Winky, Jack Spratt, Doctor Foster, Now that Christmas card one, I'll have that one. And there's a nativity quiz, quiz What were swaddling clothes? Why were the shepherds on a hill side afraid?this is quite a good one shall I that'll be the lot. Erm yeah I expect the answers will be at the back. Well I'll do a I know I'll do a Christmas section then, right? Mhm mm there's some answers Oh right, Christmas clothes how you fill in the blanks, I saw something come sailing by, that's quite good Little Jack Horner sat in the corner eating his Who'd have put Michelle with this, little bit unfair to put Michelle to put between them. Mutty. That should be alright then, shouldn't it? And she's got a child in that book. Oh right. Mu , Michelle, Mutty and Michael but on the other hand Michael might have to budge You can change it all I Done it whe who's Paul with? With a No, Paul should go with Michelle and Mutty. Mrs Michelle and Mutty, balance it up. Andrew and Carole you're sure they've got to Andrew and Carole yes, Andrew and Carole, fine. What goes oh oh oh? Father Christmas laughing backwards. You could put that as in as bu bum question couldn't you, see if anybody gets it, right? Postman, I have a Christmas parcel but the name on it is obliterated can't be for me then, my name's Jones . So what is the best way to do, that where you ask the questions, now they did if you could help me out is the when you do one section an you hand all your papers in somebody else marks them Well you don't need a lot of room, yeah just pass it around Ah but no what they did is somebody else marks them while the the next round was going on for Well no you it'd have to be you and then they announced that marked it, you couldn't do that you'd could have to pass them round and mark them instantly then start the next section. Would you, why? Well cos what person could then be lying around waiting to mark the answers? Oh I see yes. You've only got one quiz master. Oh I see, yes, that's right Well let them mark their own I mean who's gonna cheat? Alright It's a bit confusing innit, swapping the papers round? Where's the plum in this plum pudding? Would you expect to find a dog in the plum pudding Milly, what did you get that ten P for? Tilly, carol singing, Milly, and what did you fifty P for? Tilly, stopping Right I won't look at the answers. Now I can't go oh no! What? I can't give that oh oh oh, can I, cos you're in the blinking quiz! Come here! That says staff library, please return on it I didn't look it, I didn't look at any answers for the questions. Can't do the oh oh, that was funny now you'll know it! You are daft, honestly! Well you could just leave it out! What do you me why am I daft it wasn't one of You the questions, it was one of the jokes! You didn't say stop reading out the jokes. I wouldn't ever stop, cos you well how would you have known then, you wouldn't have waded through the whole book looking for it, would you? There aren't the hours in the day, ten to eleven, your Mum's coming at half past twelve. Half past twelve. Knowing her, quarter past twelve. So I'll take from whatever you gi can't get caught for that one. What? Someone played that accidentally you can't use that! Knowing your Mum is a served you right! She's been getting quite a lot of in our jokes over a couple ha! Oh he's forgotten his cool dude glasses. Oh dear. Oh, my Mum rap he's going to cool dude, cool dude. I mean if you told her, put a C in front of it and that's what it is. What? Rap. Oh She wouldn't understand our line of No. Crap , what's that? Crap? You should of let think what you have to do Mum, so you ought to say, when they say rap, you can say that it's crap and she heard it, it's crap. You think, how can somebody be on the earth, I mean And not have you don't have to appreciate do you, oh yeah But there's probably more people who don't know what rap is, in England, than do think about it. Yes I suppose so . I bet there are. I reckon there's a lot of parents Load of single people over the age of thirty. know or at least sh they don't it's called rap I've this Yen da da day dan dan dan da day I mean We mustn't he's got really, really if it's not done well it's a it's worse than not doing it all. Well the bad ones are as when the kid do it themselves isn't it? They make up the words themselves, right Yeah whereas Paul's an the been having some kind of direction there, hasn't he, I mean at Yeah. however nauseating, it does all make sense, doesn't it? Right, does it? Actually it not an easy thing to , it sounds easy, but it's not an easy thing to do. No I don't did one it did, you heard the little boy that's not getting on at home dreadful You turned it off? No there's one on the teachers are picking on him Are they? surprise, surprise Ah the kids deserve come on you no course teachers will pick on him, the only secondary school teacher that John he walked round with him he might have shot out of there That was all about backside! that was only because he was like transferred there I thought that Well he was gonna tone do , he had to tone well down when he was he obviously hasn't and I think it's really funny! Or a Christmas Pompous! Yes. Ooh I could of gone I mean he should he should have gone to private school shouldn't he, really but then Well probably the Dad would but he No I don't think they can afford it. The irony is, I don't think all the time, they are as pompous they give an air pomposity don't they? Yes I know, I think Jeremy is quite I don't think that Dad is at all, but No, it's just how they appear. And how you were brought up, I suppose. How I was brought up, but a no one 's ever called me pompous I mean, the way walks around as if he owns the place, I think it's really funny! And I don't suppose he's made,didn't have very many friends, did he, really, at Goldsworth? I mean Paul was one of his friends he never had that many so that probably means he finds it hard to make friends, you can tell It's just as well Paul didn't go with him, cos Paul would've been singled out as well. Yeah. Teachers always think right, he's with him, he's a new Yep. you know, identify with it, even if you don't portray those feelings. Well I'll tell you this once and then Who told you that then? Ooh who told me I think it came from Great Grandma and then told her. That's if you were interested. Well impeachable source but I there's no smoke without fire and everything else I've heard I've got to set this table . You can't please them, that Paul managed to get the school team and he can't Ha Well he said he'd probably get on alright at Horstell that's the irony of it wasn't necessary for him to go to Winston Do you think Mel would, I would of thought Melanie might have been the type t to sort of li be lenient on that, you know, What different schools? Yeah, sort of say well Well I mean Phillip wanted to go to Winston. Oh. I am making a mess! Urgh! Should of left, Rufus. Well I did leave the other one how long do you leave it? I'd have should of left it till . I think Moira's gone to church I think she has. Well I might not Peter's entire office dip switch Trev. Well I I thought oh go and watch the telly and I'll send Paul round when he gets back right, I'll take these two mugs to school, those with the on what did you do with the other one? It's got quite well spiders on, but at least you feel they're being used we don't get Yeah. enough out of Ha Oh drink two, four, six, eight, ten, there's enough bowls for ten people to have fruit salad. That's your lot. That's your lot that through how many seats there in the front room? One, two, three, four five six, seven, eight no one, two three, four there's nine so we'll probably have to take some stools in, but I won't take them in till the last minute. When do I add the drink in? Well what needs to be cold that's out there? What we having ? I haven't got a clue, it's up to you there's a box of wine that's been in the fridge for about six weeks! We'll have that, that's quite a good one I think, though. Yeah. That's Sainsbury's Muscadet we'll have that. Yep. So there's white wine I'll put these two in the fridge, so there's sparkling orange and there's Sainsbury's Cascade put a Kiri er what does Karen have, Appletise Appletise. is it? Put that in the fridge, there's room in the fridge now have you put an Appletise in the fridge? In fact you could bring quite a bit of it in and put it in the fridge. Are you going to change? Oh you have changed. Bloody cheeky moo! Well those you're gardening trousers. Oh they're alright, they go nice . Right, I'll put some make up on Just read them straight out the book can't you? No I was gonna re write them down though. I'll mark them there. Yeah but you'd mark the ones you know, Ruthy! I haven't! Where's the answers? In the back of the book How many sections have you got altogether? Three so far. What pictures? Two pictures and a map countries it's Africa so you're you're gonna do quite well Ruthy. You're joking, there's about fifty countries in Africa aren't there! look at it, I find it makes them easier because I think there's gon so that's gonna be quite hard isn't it, I'll Do mix the countries or Eh? is it just South Africa? Well what if they the Burkina Faso Oh no I haven't been that that bad but I reckon I've Well what are they like? I've done some that i the pe I mean you're in the middle of a country I've given them er question mark on the shape of the country it's a map but the ha what I think is easy, I dunno I mean to I mean I look at maps all day long, so Well I can't place very many, all I've placed are the ones in the middle that I used to live in I could probably place Zambia, Malawi Zimbabwe whatever the Conga is now called, I don't even know what that's now called that's about my limit, Ghana Nigeria, might be able to place if it's geographical features I could place more how many countries have you given then in Africa? Twelve. Fwoar! I won't cheat, go and look it up oh we're working in pairs though aren't we? Mm that's what I mean, I y we found that with four, is even more so, what some people were strong on others weren't and it it worked round you know, if you picked your team right everybody would thought perhaps it was better to have one woman in the team or, you know, if you had four women Yeah. have one man in the team it i i it's Have you prizes? No. Why not? What we got, what can we get, what can I get? Well you've really got have something, in case o What you looking at the questions ! I'm no , you know my eyesight, I can't see that. It's just walk over there and talk to me please. Pardon? You need three prizes, three in case it's a team of three that win how about buying three Toblerones? Right. I'll send Paul to get them I don't think I've got three of them in the house Surely you don't have to write them out. Well I it's easy isn't it? Hope Adrian's in a good mood You haven't seen what work he's doing at the moment then, how does he know? Quick look at the tape ooh what's this? Bet you couldn't cut all those pictures off. Oh yeah. That's Michael Caine s oh not it isn't Pamela Bordes, I thought it was Michael Caine's wife Oh there's Michael Caine's wife, oh they do look similar Strewth!oh that's too easy isn't it? Eleven eighty two, eighty oh Why? What the Christmas card one? Mm. It was Victorian times wasn't it? Or make three different dates for it. Oh yes. Oh I'm not just a pretty face I don't remember what dates it has, make up three appropriate dates So they're both coming at half past twelve, yeah? Roughly will they come in three different cars? Next week's dress rehearsal. Alright, we're going next week. I'm not if I've still got this cold. You won't have that cold next week. It's not worth me going, I'll see how I feel, sit there snivelling always. So it might be alright for Mum and Dad? What? What might be alright? What might be alright? Well if there's no rap, it might be alright for Mum and Dad. There will be a rap. There will be a rap? Can I have one of these please? Mum? Yes. Thank you . There will be a rap? Well what are they gonna cancel then? Nothing nothing Come and watch. So you gotta go next week for a dress rehearsal an if you want me to. I don't need them for that. Well what costume do you need for your dress rehearsal? And when will they let you know whether it's cancelled or not? er What are you eating? Woh! Woh!ah Win a lot of toys? No. So who else is in it, apart from you? I dunno, don't care, don't want to know! Oh take some Anadin, you'll feel better. No I won't I've gotta stay away from them. Well we changed your group, by the way. What? Daddy said, you should be with Nanna and Adrian. I was with Nanna and Adrian. No Daddy said you should be with Michelle and Mutty. Why do I Nan and Adrian? Well cos erm some of the questions are sort of, English questions. So what? Well Michelle's not English. Well Mutty is. Yeah but Mutty's old won't understand all the rapping. Paulie looked at one of the questions! He didn't. alright I'll si Well you should go in the front room cos I've got the test papers to write. No I'm here! Where is my cardy? Where's a pen? It's ridiculous! Cos I had a pen here. There's one Don't look at y , he's looking! Oh he isn't! Dad I'm not looking. Well go, you go over you can eat it over there go on. I wanna sit on the couch , how can I No go on Paulie cos I can't Why can't you do it in the front room then? Eh? Why do Cos there's a table here. Is that, I will move on a table then! Don't turn round take something for your si cold. Then I'd have to turn round wouldn't I? But keep away from Pucker. I might as well be like a Don't turn round. Go to bed. Goodnight. Goodnight. You'll enjoy it when they get here it's cold isn't it? No it's not . Why do you pu , Michelle knows loads of things. Yeah but she might not know English Christmas traditional questions. Yeah. If I were you I'd much rather be with Michelle and Mutty Michelle's very clever. Well exactly, so why does she need me? Cos you might win Ferrero Rocher don't want that one over there. Just give me the . won't. You forgot to put new tapes in the recorder last night. What new tapes? New batteries rather. Did you put them in? Yes go and see on Teletext see if Gary Lineker's son's died. Oh Ruth! What gonna die? Well no I mean I want to know. Not gonna die that quickly. Oh yes he is. He's only got leukaemia. He's only thirty one, Gary Lineker. That's sick Mum! You can't think like that Has he died yet, sounds like you're waiting for him to die! Paul, that is not what I meant! Well it was so said wasn't it. See how he is, if you prefer Wogan's been axed. Oh yeah. It lost half its ten million since it started a speculator for BBC wants to buy This is Your Life and Thames the seven o'clock with Wogan as host it's a On This is Your Life? a week That's alright then, that means he alright, good The Queen Mother fell over yesterday got up again . What what what what's in the house. Say that again. Queen Mother fell over What what what's in the house. yesterday, how old is she, ninety two? Might be a bit older than that. Ninety three? Doesn't say about time she retired Mm mm ha In our report, headed the burden slaves, on October the thirteenth we mistakenly a picture of Vidalia Oberia in place of Mrs Filamenia Agassi typical Daily Mail! Why did it all go wrong? Why did what go wrong? Well Is it hard to cut? And for your next complaint! Is it hard to cut? Yes. That one looks good hey ya pow hey ya . Junior doctor held his held his finger on a neck wound . Urgh! Er what happened? Why did he have to keep it there for three hours? Why couldn't they get I'm sure someone else could of dealt with it better as a No but I mean why did it take three hours to get him to surgery? An awful What happened? long time doesn't it, before anybody did anything A junior doctor held his finger in a stabbed policeman's neck wound God! for three hours with a sur as the surgeon battled to save his life well I'd have thought they could have plugged wounds with something other than a finger! Oh alright don't keep talking about it please. Urgh! Ha ooh just with umbrella stuck his finger right in. This three inch wound, look at him, look at his scar! Ah. It's a take it away it's making my eyes water. Is the front door shut Paul? Dunno. There's some Vauxhall advert the choice buy a Nova with a good deal or very little doesn't make sense does it? Kevin? Costs What doesn't make sense? Well it's another Vauxhall ad but it doesn't make sense buy a Nova with a good deal or very little. No but do you know what it means? A pun. Well what does it mean? It's a pun, they always have puns, I don't know what it means yeah but one of those charts are wonky though the other one In fact they are on all of them, looks silly doesn't it? Are you giving me your cold? Mm, hope so but at least it won't be me my selection er er er er er errr gonna let my was there any post, Mum? Paul this is Sunday, do we have post on a Sunday? No, no, no. Have you done all your homework, you can go and do half an hour's homework quite usefully couldn't you? Yes. Have you done it all? Oh well done. Skilful Joe. Hardly. Got to have that Dils doo dee doo doo doo I'll go and change I'm gonna let my hair go down am I not wearing a football shirt? I hope not. Can I change into it in the evening? Oh yeah because this looks cool total just mod cons Mum Bang! So what would you rather me wear, this or that white shirt thing? That'll do. What this? It's better than the red and blue one Half of primary pupils will not work on their own traditional teaching is best ten year study shows modern class, failing children . Doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo La la la la la la ah doo doo doo doo doo doo doo da boung boung boung boung Suppose su some of these questions you'll remember won't you? da da da da da now now now now now now Well they've all played as well so they might remember. you gotta love my people now . taking English Grammar at best, taught to the whole class thank you I think I'll cut that out and take that in. We need some tonic water Kevin, is that in the garage? Mhm. Could make some out of Soda Stream if you're desperate. Oh I think we will make it out of Soda Stream to begin with do you want to make a bottle Paul? Sure Don't na na na Get the middle size bottle, make a middle size bottle full of We haven't got a middle size bottle. Well look harder. We haven't. Well what's happened to them? Oh hang on this will be it. Paul try just s middle Not eh! I'm not looking, I'm not looking oh put it away Dad! Oh knowing your Dad, doing on the last minute! I know we should be Well where have the middle sized Soda Stream bottle gone? I'm not allowed to look anyway. Well make the little one Paul. Could at least put something over it! Ah here it is hang on a second while I rinse it out. You're not telling answer Got the bottles of Coke out yet? Only one bottle. Only one bottle of Coke out there. Yeah. You got any share money hanging over you still or have you paid everything? Well it depends if I get these shares I bought yesterday or not. What shares you bought yesterday? British Telecom. I told you! I did, I did, I've gotta go and get my British Telecom money ! You said oh yes. What you said was I am going to pay in these various cheques and if there's a big queue I'll come straight out No, no, no and I said why should there be a big queue and you said because cos it's a B T share offer. Yes no I said I'm getting my B T's in offer in haven't got them. off of B T. Well when I went past Britannia to see if you were there, there was nobody in it. Yeah Not got Coke. Halifax was out the window, yes Mm there was nobody in there there was about So if I meet a big queue I dunno it was about to shut wasn't it at the same time and it it was like well it's worth gonna get them. I must have missed you, cos if I went past Britannia, and I thought ooh they'll probably still be in there Technically I suppose if you get inside the shop before the time closes they they're on a bet They all stand by the door don't they? Just but, once you as you long as you got in before twelve o'clock Yeah you'd be alright I think it might be twelve thirty round about twelve fifteen, Britannia isn't it? Anyway it's Twelve o'clock, Britannia. But he looked across to us and saw us and then he really cheesed off with me we he di he virtually sat Well that's why you went to Britannia's innit, isn't it? Okay? We had to put our three hundred and twenty pounds. We haven't got three hundred and twenty pounds. I hope you'll save that two hundred for your Mum's golden wedding Ah. booze I am cold. Mum? Yeah. Is it the one of the right or the left or one that's got his finger in. Paul, the one on the left is Kenneth Baker the one on the right is a policeman neither of those is a junior doctor. Sorry. Not worthy of a photograph I shouldn't think There's the Queen Mother again, doesn't say how old she is There is the picture of the doctor, mind you he doesn't look like a junior doctor, he's Pakistani and he looks about fifty! Mr Ujam Ooh Ujam, Ujam, Ujam look at this Mum. What's this? The florists were alright. Look at these three. Nice flowers. A So it is. He's seen the light. Sheila's buying an Amiga. Sheila who? How many Sheilas do you know? What this Christmas? Sheila Sheila Sheila . When? Oh no! This is ridiculous! Great, no way unbelievable! I'm not swapping anything with her they ended up bringing back my games ! We get one, oh I must get one as well. When they getting them? She pro they buying it as a joint family present this year. Oh. Then each child's only allowed ten pounds worth of presents apart from that you look dreadful! Why don't you go and lie down for half an hour? Don't believe this! Take some Anadin. Why them ! They got Paul there's probably a million Amigas in the country. Is that why you erm that's quite only not . about that, I think you've got a totally illiterate person, no doubt Actually she said nine tenths certain going to get an Amiga but they might get an Atari. Well Atari's no good they're games It's not a computer. They only want it for games do they? No well there's all different Ataris aren't there? Oh yeah, is that right Paulie? Yeah. These are supposed on the side don't you? No three hundred. Well that's cheaper. Oh, is it? What Pauly showed me this this thing, the game thing for Atari where you li disk pack what's it called Paulie? What? Ray's getting. Oh that's not Atari, that's Sega. Sega. Sega Megadrive. Megadrive. Yeah. It's got a They have to the Atari, right you load this in a word processing in a path games are venture and the sound is much better than Amiga on the Amiga er the graphics are better on the Amiga and but the Atari ST is slightly easier to program. What is the point of mouse ? Makes it pretty it improves it's just a mou , you know mouse mat you got them at school. Yeah but what is the point of it? How do you know I've got mouse mays at school? Yes you have, you know what you run your mouses along! I haven't got one. You haven't got one y know, quite cheap just mats that they they ah I've got forgotten what the word is for it they make the mouse improves the performance of the mouse see Do the ball at the bottom, the rolly ball as it picks it up easier stops them, you don't scratch the bottom of it. Ah. How do we know which is for tea and which isn't? You can eat anything there for lunch and I'm going to put sandwiches and cake out for tea. Where you doing, where are the sandwiches? I haven't made them yet, I'll be making them this afternoon, yet more work to do I can't really make them now. Why not? Oh! With twenty five we're likely to die falling off a ladder than you are to die from AIDS . Having been up a ladder, only I could see how easy it is, you could fall off a ladder as simply as anything. Yep. Excuse me. What . I hope the tape picked that up Dad. Yes I'm sure it probably did I just thought Paul, go to the corner of the front room Paul and take something for that. I'll take another sausage wow! Don't take one with bacon round it. It's much more warmer in there. That lounge. Did you make this? No. Oh. Why do I only I allowed to have your cold? Erm, you'd better keep away from Papa. Can't keep away from everybody. Don't breathe over them and don't make it so obvious. What else am I supposed to do? Right, let's try the crossword,fish of carp family,don't know,middle in a cracker, Portuguese enclave in China , Daddy will know that. Pardon? Portuguese enclave in China, begins with M Er oh yes Macau. How many letters has that carp one got? Five Ancient models plaice of a Spanish Peninsula the young eel is an alba plaice, Paul has not got five letters. Yes it has, no it hasn't. Begins with T, I expect it's tench trout trout. well I think tench and carp are the same family kind of orange navel naval, navel navel King Tyle who assisted Solomon in the building of the temple King Tyle Doubt it. Religion revealed through Mohammed. Er Islam. Oh thank you Paul. That's not .. I think it's hair what's the ancient name for the Spanish Peninsula The border. Any letters? yeah it ends in I A, and it might begin with O it begins with a vowel kind a it's a lu the Russian walk out it's got a Z in it. Oh that's Agaza Agat No something U something Z something something Something U mm Not bolshoi is it, how do you spell Macau? M A C A U. O? I thought it was M A C A U, Macau. I thought it M A C A W. Oh no. You would . Yes it might I've seen it spelt both ways. Well maybe no it cos it'd be Nothing bolshoi if it was O. It's W Yeah bolshoi's right so which one is it then? O. Mm I've seen it a U as well I must admit. I thought it was Right holiday you done it. the something something meetings of spiritualistic phenomena seance. Yo Ooh Dad give us a bit. Exam papers turn over your papers now do not look can't start yet. Read them out Mum I can't get them easily. Bird, female of the ruff style of architecture prominent during the reign of Louis the f fifteenth . How, what word has it got? Nothing words of songs , lyrics? Birthplace of Saint Theresa. Rome County in Eire . Cork. Cle something. Cle r Scrooge's late partner , Marley I'll go and play that . one of the gospels , Mark? Bird, female of the ruff , I think it's a grouse nest of a bird of prey Hawk, falcon no, nest,one who manages another's business agent Oh I know that er a ki kirey isn't it e earring so it's not a rouse what is a bird, female, oh it's a reath the American buffalo Bison bison. Very good What a county in Eire beginning with C L cl Clare Clare, County Clare. Look it up. style of architecture Done it. with Cocoa I've done it. What that say again? Style of architecture with cocoa. Oh. What is name of it? of the largest of the continent must be Africa but it doesn't fit. Asia. Oh Asia the largest continent birthplace of Saint Theresa Erm India Syria. doesn't fit where's Mother There Saint Theresa born? Not Mo Syria. not Mother Theresa. No, Saint Theresa. It is India innit? Don't fit gotta be something I something A Something I something A Something something I something A Shakespeare comedy , the mister of something Temptress. Is it? Vinchenti Blasgo something writer of the four Sailor, not an officer . Tree with shrub with white or yellow flowers Daffodil No right I've done all I can, you can finish it off. I'm still cold! Okay Well you can do it. We'll get hot. Vincent Blasgo what Dad? Vi Vincent Vasco de Gama No! Blasgo! He wrote the Four He wrote the Four Gentlemen and a something B something N something Ah these are disgusting! I'm hungry. those Take them ou out of circulation then if they're disgusting. What? Ah people might like them. Get away! Urgh they're the ones that smell like bad fish! You've had it before. You're not wrong no I've done some before, urgh! Pu clean them away, people won't like them! Yeah a lot of people will your Mum might Nigel Kennedy, look at the Aston Villa club shots. Oh yeah. Football is the unifying part of my life, it is of equal importance to the music He'll grow out of that one day. I love anything, claret and bu blue he's a Senior Vice President of the club and he's got Aston Villa boxer shorts and Aston Villa pyjamas on one visit to the shop he spent four hundred pounds. What? Nigel Kennedy's been known to spend more than an hour in the shop after a game, on one visit he spent four hundred pounds. The shop sold Aston Villa t-shirts, sweatshirts and slippers to bikes, Nigel has examples of most. It's got a bit serious he admits, I've got the logo on my . My girlfriend's a Villa fan but isn't always happy about it especially when I suggested painting the bedroom claret and blue . His violin case which houses the seventeen thirty f You're really clo clobbered with that though, it really smells like bad feet you smell like you haven't washed your feet I think you better clean your teeth where are those crisps take them away. They're disgusting! No Dad. That's two you've eaten now They're that's the first thing someone's gonna think is that her feet smell! They won't think that Kevin you've eaten some cheese crisps. there's two of those, so throw them both away there's two of them. It really smells like I haven't been near a bath for a month. What's so bad? Wooh! They must be the ones that Mum had been eating when you I came in. Can I just have a smell? You I haven't, I just opened them. I can't smell anything Right when you eat them? When you bite them it smells like Put bigger ones in there. Parmesan cheese. Well that's alright there they are. They don't they don't smell so bad compared with the other ones do you want one Dad? Nope oh they're delicious! No break them Right you want me to go and get the other drink in now, you say? Yep. Where's Paulie's big blow up straw, the copying was it, was it over here? Behind the chair. Which chair? That one? Ooh! Yeah. Oh wah yo do do do do do do . I'm so cold. Bye Dad, gotta go, see you later. These Paul I'm supposed to be writing all . That was these Twiglets are stale as old Harry. Twiglets? Mm. Take some Anadin Paul here's a couple of Anadin feel better, honest Paul. Alright no not Anadin. Why? They make me sick. Oh what? Oh well, what else you got? Paracetamol. Let's have a look not solubles you've got some Hang on just gonna there's one. It's all football where's that one then? That's all I got. Hello Hello all you got Mm. That's good. Ordinary Anadin won't make you sick. Tip it in whole Only one They're gonna be late now because we insisted on them all coming. Like that. Say half twelve bomb or something. So when's this Wogan thing packing up then, do you know? Does say, doesn't it forgotten where the was. somebody snow, I'd really like it. Boursin. I can't see them letting Wogan Boursin go though can you? They'll do It can last for so long people do something else. the mind boggles. What do you want me to do with this? Put it on the hall stand please. Oh is it, is it one of after two at tea time. Put that heater on then would you that one on for a while just before they come. besides the fact that I've got a headache. So will our quiz done have you a got a pad or something? Yes your father's got a plan. Dad put me with After lunch. We'll eat After fairly soon Mm. We'll eat stra virtually fairly soon and then let them have a look at them. After everybody drinks when they first come in yeah? Mhm. No le let them have sort of like a half an hour talk before you announce the quiz straight after that let all their stomachs go down and then sort of get If we let we can No judge that Paul. wait forty five minutes cos then you wanna catch all their er speaking don't you on a tape? Well we'll see. So what these these are new aren't they? Mm I don't use them every day because they began to fray. Well where are they? Don't Yeah that guy's chest looks what he's been through. Oh what yeah, horrid innit? Like a rag doll. If you think another person did that to him. No you don't do on purposely do those beautiful cuts like that across there they did that What? The doctors did all that all he had was in the leg. No but someone had a crack at him. The doctor, yeah yeah. Don't get people thrashing people Isn't that awful about Stoke on Trent's garden thing? What? That that was before and look at it now. What happened to it? Been allowed to don't look very good before now. Where were those taken? There. Yeah. Shall I move these spirits and video star out the way then? Yep put it them by the videos on one of the shelves. What's this video doing here? I dunno probably my husband. Are you gonna want to record anything tonight? Erm dunno go and look and see what's on telly tonight. Did you bring your tape in Dad? Don't record on that car rally one, that's Trevor's. Hasn't he taken ? No. What is it here for? Dad? Daddy's going to watch it. You put Lombar Lombard R A C rally on Rubbishy magazine. That's a pretzel glass isn't it? Mr Pickford That's what well Kevin gave me that slip . Kevin why did you give Michelle that glass cos I didn't wash those glasses, I didn't wash those glasses. Oh dear ah ah ah ah was such a ah ah ah ah and there was a piece of metal in it ! Piece of metal in it. Oh that's the one where you put the when it was being done. checking that ! Oh yeah That's on my feet. How did you take the ? Well he gave me the ! Oh dear ! What made you think that? Oh maybe he liked the so much . Do you want some more of this,? No No. thanks. So you thought yo you ate frogs legs? Have you tried the Did you Kev ? seafood one? Lovely shrimps in it. I thought we were leaving Bill at home. Did you he did you see that Does anybody want a drink top up? programme last night about Yes please, yeah this er French firm? Vodka about the French what did they do with the other half of the story ! Want a drink? Michael Can I have a Coke please? I might have Yep the fish, I think, do you think? Yep in a minute Yes. You okay there? Are you gonna have some? Yes alright, I'll have some. Pet don't look so serious. Sorry? That would of made a good conversation, why did you give Michelle the glass? You're standing on my chair. I think it's very rude of her Move! given me a dirty glass. Sorry am I a Oh sorry oh don't sit on it! Like the shoes Paul. I think you've caught him out . Oh yes. I think that taking the mickey out of them. Will it come out . No sometimes it sticks to you. Go round the sitting room with it on your feet! You know that list of flowers Accurate Has it yes. I've never seen it flower If it I'm not very good at them Mum gave me that one it's been in quite good condition but It has to be watered, water all the time. I mean look I've killed it Where did you get your Christmas cactus? Mm from Croydon Had a Nice one. a knot she had a she had one is it Papyras you call it don't you. Umbrella plant we call them. Oh Pap Papyras Why? That's the word. I think the Egyptian used to use that to write tha to write on. Oh. Mum's just telling me about her erm Like a quill Well I erm thing? this Michelle have you got another dirty glass you want to replace from Beatons, Safeways , no thanks. Yes I would no , I'd like another dirty drink Enjoyed that one so much ! Dad, Dad I'll put all after I've done one side of this we'll do the quiz then. Sad about er Gary Lineker's baby. Alright yeah. Yes Cheers. Fine It did work. Same drink Michelle? Only little children Then what? Yes . Get them in. That's what I wanted to take the little Strange thing is this is why he's never because that home environment It's very nice. Do you know what my er mother does she was gonna let her he regrets know her net curtains are all along her window, he had them in the front of the house and oh because he down their very advanced Paul! One of these ones? Really huge I'm I'm silver, I'm not very good Thank you at drawing. Isn't it a shame Mum about Gary Lineker's baby. Oh yes. Yeah very sad. But if I was you know you're not No you can't Let me out! cos he's friendly with Jose Carreras, the Barcelonian And and also with Botham, cos Botham does that with do that walk for the er Mm th that w one wonders, you see, because he he had a lot to do with Jose Carreras when he was ill and you wo Mum, cos there is a school of thought that they can be a virus that starts it Mm. He's going to do another run, Ian Botham for leukaemia Mm. research. Must have been dreadful that though But it only strikes on two babies a year, two babies in England He does you know Couldn't it be helped? Mm. So sad. But they say e even if he came out very prognosis though su successfully it'd be five years I would of thought so, hope so. he's clear. Yes but the prognosis of a baby at that age isn't good. They don't? No. Look at the Mountbatten's little girl. Yes but she didn't have leukaemia so quickly. Oh did she? Oh I thought Excuse me just because the tape's on there's no need for you to use big words like prognosis. Yeah. Is it on, this? Yeah. How do you know it isn't on? No it's not on at the moment, cos Paul No. turned it off. I didn't. Have you turned it on? Now it's made it all go quiet hasn't it Yeah. eh? I ain't gone quiet Oh I Let me take those washing up this morning washing up Are you sure you're alright, he said I just said oh. er oh just a little bit. No I am Just talking about the tea room. Yeah actually he was supposed to say to Jeff Say about that there was this job. You won't now because they got the hospital to build on. Doesn't really take Wednesday nights. They're I've never seen anything in that bowl. Do you want another honey? That's Appletise Oh er anything what this one here? Yeah but wasn't it We've got their Mum gave us a French dictionary, but my is the in French now they can't get The number of English words there are in there it's So get learning amazing yeah but the thing is actually giving up Happy They are really English words they erm I can't think of something now but I mean I bet I could The only one I can think of is Oh yes, did that at the beginning for for a long time. For a fortnight. You don't have to play for a fortnight, do you? Mm I think cousin I do I will say cousin actually, it's all same. We'll two. There are quite a few cos I did that in my Norman project. Did you hear about say The English is the same isn't it? ne next week on Sunday, the Danish Embassy Oh? Pu our own Putney has been awarded the medal of honour, sixth highest medal of honour for erm services to the Danish industry and he's coming over and they're having a a caviar and champagne reception at the Danish Embassy and now the Queen of Denmark Queen Margarite is coming over. Ooh I don't read Turkish. Ooh I say yeah. They are all invited. They were going out for a west end meal in the evening. That'd be nice oh lovely. But Karen thinks when was that? Next, not this Monday, next Monday. Karen thinks we'll all be three black crows we've all got black. Yeah we're all wearing black! very funny ! If in doubt, wear black. Well Cynthia went somewhere the other day and there were so many pe people in black it was like a doomsday It's come back again, hasn't it? Yes. Why is that then? Why? You've got black on, but this time you wear it I mean it's Purple took over for a while, ha. Mm. My , it's so weird now, I'm borrowing erm she's got a a a blue, no it's not a blue plaid it's not really a scarf, it's bigger than that Throw over. yeah, Like a wrap thing. which she got from Ireland Don't know about this. her Mum bought it for her er pure wool over there it's electric blue, so I've got to wear the with. Oh I say Oh and that's gonna be But when I take, I can't wear that in the embassy because it will be too hot. Oh yes I know Mark. yesterday, cos it laid on its fluff on you. See it's not smooth, it's not that I don't think it does. The car's ours. I mean it's Does Mum I quite like actually it does it's really funny I just when I wanna be simple it's just like I'm gonna break down in front of a man yeah and they just got, cos they're mean Her mother gave it to her when she went over there Yes. a bright blue and er I bought that Really. on the M forty five. Mm. And Adrian bought me for my birthday erm earrings the so I'm going to wear a pearl necklace and pearl earrings on We caught all different perch out there didn't we? But when you get er to a certain I think you do tend to find a lot of the dressier clothes are in black. Mm. Yeah but you're not at that certain age? Yes I agree No. No matter, what I mean why we all seem to wearing black, because they're at school But only when you go in the shop, I find the colours this year are rubbish empty! and they they couldn't really have something Brown ale or I'll finally accept it,i the thing she is she got a green velvet suit from Ron and the lady said to her she said well will you be in Hello,i she said I thought we'll be in Packaging News! A hundred and fifty people have been invited, but I don't know if all will be coming. I've just realised that the be every time I have an occasion Yeah I go green don't I? And if it's green One bottle over. It's the colour of hope. Is it? It's warm. Yeah it's the colour of love. Well my green oh and in French it's the colour of hope, promise? My Exactly. Our bridesmaids And you. wore green velvet didn't they Mum? Pardon? Adrian and I had bridesmaids in green velvet green velvet do you remember you said how unlucky it was? Mm. In England green is supposed to be an unlucky colour. Really? Oh. Mm. Oh dear And then everything already and then, also we got married in May, and they say marry in May, rue the day, so Mm, or going to Paris on the honeymoon! yes. That's the time I was married in May, too. Paul. There we are Mum. Yeah. Mm, thank you. Could I have Mum you can't get that round here. I will, I'm just looking for the What do you want? earrings. Yes I will. These are so delicious aren't they? Oh to go with your dress dress yes. Mm mm very nice sit there? people sit there gambling No No. I'm not. How they put the big plastic things Mm that hold them. But I don't know if they will be too heavy for your ear lobes. I'll have a go anyway see The everlasting twenty pound note. Shame got it fixed! You know complete small ear lobe. No here,do it these are worth letting go and erm I paid for them dearly for piercing for me and er I think he was frightened of a little bit too far on the edge I think. Mm. Choose another one No I can't do that now so I can't certainly Mm. Cos that's one lower still Well no Well they they might sometimes I had mine done to me Definitely close it right up. when he Oh. They couldn't Nancy was telling me that he had loads of Mine complaints I was playing with the dog a Well I didn't have any No just periodically I So we take her onto the We had to pay for the doctor. It didn't hurt, but then they don't they? Don't know how he does Yep them. By the time you get an you know, Michael will be allowed to have his Plenty of room, it is a big room Yeah. I'm clo that's closing up it's closed up that one you know, where we got it. You know what it is, we disguise all our don't we? Mm. Have you just heard? No Right. Go and sit over there. You're all in then Dad! stay there love. Oh. Is he in middle again What does that family look like? Have a bit of the dirge. Doo do do do . Mum is that alright Mm Is that because the hose Then he'll be walking in with this quiz an Yes. What is this quiz we're gonna have then? Ooh it's a big quiz, one of I'll Following in my Dad's footsteps. Daddy spent all day and scribbling. Yeah everyone's gotta play They're getting very popular those square bags aren't they Joy? any paper. It's funny you should say Very popular they get we both had the same Mum! about it and you know how we weren't very, cos everybody said oh we'd like one of those, cos they're so easy. Mm yeah. And now poor Michael couldn't find one ! Yeah. Rat fink! and imagine we were Somebody told us in the market, but we never get to the market, do we? I don't care No. Yeah in the market, but er in Red Parks they're in front of the exit like that, I mean they were so easy . aren't they? Oh! Well can you imagine any more than English ones. What was the little dog you had? He's not any work. Yes. I always remember After my old one. we all had the naughties, used to say. and now when you got this Once you get out of car and I thought it was a dog that she had,bu didn't have, she didn't have a dachshund he had a little No she had, she had corgis. Woof, woof, woof, woof. Michael, No I'll get it. Whose is that one? Andrew's possible but that won't Ah right I don't want him to stop until his party. You've got your new shoes on Mum, or those Yeah Yep. They're nice. Ha ha ha. Mm. Good innit that's outrageous, that is! There Is it slanderous or libel Read it outside, the inside first, I think read Yeah. the outside first. has written a slanderous poem . I have to be very careful though, seeing that his birthday's the same day Yeah, yeah Karen why aren't you opening yours? I've opened mine. Oh you've opened them all You didn't tell me what you got. Shall I She didn't show me what you got, why should show you! Oh. But she had money from and I gave her some money Oh I see and a for you Aha. too. Thank you. Don't you worry about that, Ruthie's the hostess. Oh yeah Ooh! I think I'll be coming Right from over here. Let's see that one. . Michelle really! Ooh dear Right we can all throw that in bin. Blue what? Course you can't go round, you gotta do double with my . I can't guarantee it works like clockwork. Ha ha ha Hopes he finds Ruth and I are trying to get these done especially when that ship went up you looked like the Keystone Cops, didn't I, we went one back in there! I'm afraid I I went one when the li when the allotment caught fire. Cos cos you were pale. I'd of never never got that hose out without it would I, now? No there's some very in that bag. I we I think the fire fighters used the white skirt tied the way it wa on my shoe Tried to hold it to it. I was s dirty, mud all up my leg. Trying to hold the trees together All the splashing over me! Well you had to hold it together I Do you watch that er that London's Burning? Oh yes, he finds her at erm Do you watch that, yeah Yeah. Do you get it last week Yeah Yes Bailey Bailey saw the cards. He's dodgy I like him it's Good you can find, ah, he loves her. a twist They didn't think, didn't think he could wait a week, One At least where he Didn't watch variety stop? No. He looked quite good, didn't he? Yeah. Yes, well it always is. good Mm. . Oh have you seen that face lift job he wants? No it's over. It's well out of order! Twenty to eleven. I don't know. Yes it is Now when he was at school No but I like it back. Yes well and I didn't like it better either. You seen that Andy? What? This face lift jobby. Yeah I know. And You could your one. all because they have to be read, I Yes That What is yours Michael's really tired. I'm alright. . Lovely aren't they? Yes Oh no. and I thought that you wanted that Yes didn't you? very good. Mm. Shall I hit him! You won't understand it Paul, it's confidential. No not my hands please Mm. Boys these days! I'll tape it up. No, no, no, no you'll muck up everything. No. ha. It's a do-it-yourself pea shooter here. Where's it gone? Eric in your bag. I'm chair listener alright Yeah Alright Kev? You can sort out Oh yeah, Paul What earrings this, is it Nanny's? What I don't know who's that is. the green earrings are mine, Dad and the then you can borrow or a I've found the green earrings. erm Do you see that one? Wendy said I could borrow her dress. Are those your, oh yes of course it is. And they come back She's got a dress a green dress for her for Golden Wedding Anniversary. The Sunday after Just look. Are you gonna leave the tape on? Ah Put the tape on. Yes No don't worry green's,for love. Paulie put that other tape Is it? I'm learning, how to maybe read the stars,. That's right. Her longs are what? Are long and tiddly! Yes. Ah lovely yes so But it's just uncanny I'd suddenly I keep picking green for occasions. Well Mutty had a green Well so do I, I wear it for dress school every day. for her Silver Wedding celebration. I Paul's for a lot of green and he's a Yeah. Paul's now then she's going to Maybe get so lucky. Ooh! Maybe us all thinking that it's sort of not quite smart and it's It's a toilet set innit? You're cheap! She has to live like saint. I'd rather do it myself. No that bats Ooh look, I've got my ears caught You'll come back next year and it'll still be in the box. Adrian will have to fix No. fix it up then, cos it, or Andy cos they did a Ooh very useful, yeah. Andy didn't mind. Hose round corners. He's got press ups. Why haven't you taken it all out of the box. I He's gonna make it. Show it everybody. He's gonna put it together now. oh. Yes, yes. Oh go on. I'll get it all right now He's going to put it on you gotta Now you're a five star No what you are supposed to do is , this is one I made earlier! I'm the one who comes last,looking at the other people. We noticed that, it's all Yeah it's in a Oh hurry up, number three! Can't help that. Ah this is useless! If you turn the tape on now you hear all the best murmurs. I had to get Adrian to do it. Yes I'm shoving more Course, then there's that bit, alright. And then the nose bit. He's bunging them off. And there's no , oh yes there is. In the side. Right, all those he promised. It's up to you though Oh is it? It is recording. I know it is but don't play around with that! You'll stop the sound . Cream's on the table. Ladies and Gentleman, it's You said that it weren't on anyway. I know. So no one thinks it's on. They know anyway. Oh. Doesn't use the instructions then anyway. Put the mike on. last word then after half an hour He told us off for not taking him there Then you You'd of looked even funnier next to the six year old ! Paul looked funny enough. That Well I wondered if he'd wa he'd gone out on the Nottingham cos I wondered what would happen to the mascot was he shot the mascot, after the the game? Well I i they had the mascot from the it would have only gone out on their home territory. Quartered yeah yeah. Hung, drawn and quartered. Well I I I said to the chap he said did you have a good day, this little guy sitting next to me he answered yeah, good day yes did you see us? I said, yes we saw you. We saw you but did you have to come running over Green coat. waving to the crowd! Apparently some football teams won't let the fathers on the pitch. What did Nottingham Forest beat you? If you do it for our side Five one they won't let the players . Mum, can we get on? Yes well Lucky old But is it really ? They try and take photographs of him . Yes We had to take the photographs, he had to go on the pitch, didn't he? Well I first had to go down and ask. When you think those days of Did you get to wear your football shirt as well? No I went in he did ask, didn't you? Yeah. Oh you do meals, gonna have some don't you? In the end people said actually it wouldn't be worth entering, yet What we do is I'll go in and video Eh? When they I bought, in the end to drive. Let me get behind furniture Well if Liverpool win People who argue that in the league the lower the that's forty pounds, they must in What about the league then? Eh? Until he comes back from and that Well that's because I hadn't been in there and you can be Yeah and you Yes I'd be sitting on it by now. Yep I'm finished, thank you very much. Oh dear! And the Yeah. Or motoring . Wouldn't mind about the , when yo , you know when you hear about being in it's huge try and gore him each player so they What's this photographs of it? I'm not Which is actually, that's a chemical thing, isn't it, that's the E E C Michael. isn't it What's the oldest label every chemical . Has he got that, oh that's quite nice Has, has has, has has, has, has, You got any spare batteries ? I dunno there might be some then I can have one. Okay, is it alright to slow it right down . Oh yes, but the actual, no How do you know if they're working, how? Well yeah, might have. Yeah it's go still working. What the tall thin ones? Open i open thing. Don't try and take a photograph. You open the lens cap. Now you try and take one you'll have to get Just You're posing natural, natural who's camera is it, Paul? Why isn't it working? Well hasn't it got a tall thin flash? Yeah. working Well we've got flash. we've got lots of batteries Paul, though And it won't work if you put the battery in there! They'll have, they'll have Well done Did you see B and Q Pardon? Did you see B and Q have got a recently now? Ah? B and Q. Have they? And they Eric so cheap. Always so cheap Always buy your in B and Q. Oh yeah. Oh look. I said I will wait B and Q Eric Eric. We've tried this one here. Oh dear, oh dear. Not such a good idea! Little tiny ones we'd stay and we'd replace them. Yeah but I'm talking about the loose ends. Kevin. They've lasted all this time. good idea Must do that must do that. How old is ? I dunno Paul Paulie Paulie got any patches like that? No look look, yeah let's listen. I will. where is the sharp ah to make . Two of them? You say I He bought to go out. Yes. Sam's own school really Too up to go down and too low to come up. as well. Er Granddad what is it? says he so I don't think he was being very practical Mm. Must say Mhm mm mm mm mm mm mm . I think You know what to do with these, don't you? Do I? Yes, we can hope, can manage that, yeah. Ha! I'd laugh if he said yes without ! We'd have a look You sure you can? Do you want it on the wall or what? Sit on that. Do you want it on the wall or free standing? We're putting them up, yes I can do that. On the wall. Er on the , they're cracking up and I'll be Kevin I don't think I'll have it as whirly as that. It is innit? And then when we That's what you've got, is okay. erm yeah. They're getting me a hose for Christmas. and put Well that is a good idea. Just as well a fla a flat one? Yeah, we're gonna have a flat one. Ha ha oh go on Oh no, it's just remembering without the words. Oh go on he says that cos he knows he's got the card. Oh. So I don't know if I can get a . Is it a then? No. It's their kitchen that It looked quite That's right, you get it on there surely? cos they were in No they put that, put that a long erm a Adrian's is on the wall too. thin looking scissors Well that's a train anything else you think we might know,upside down? While they're finishing aren't you? I don't know personally Yeah like they got little metal plates and they apparently they look very to the wall. Ah they won't But they can take it off the wall. Oh I see oh that me that means it's working okay. Fine, is it alright now? Yeah. How much do I owe you for, how much are they Ruth? Oh I don't know where it came from it's been a long time . Don't throw those away. If they were new they'd be a in a packet. Yeah. We've fumigated them. Ooh mind the beer! Is it working now? Yeah. Don't all look at me, you're supposed to be going on talking! Should be perfectly natural. I always sound like that. It's very true Straight in front of a map and you go urgh! then do something and urgh! Ah! He don't get any better does he Joy? Yeah. Don't get any better. You ooh ooh! Well do you think we can have our pudding now? Yes. Oh yes. Yeah Ooh I need spoons. Hurry up, you're too hot. I don't need a box, oh only so you can break it and then take it back. Who's that ? That's Actually puddings Oh yes, can you handle that? Oh yes that's piece of a handle. The pudding is erm hot Jam roly poly or and I used to say he's really going down it On the axles weren't you That goes on the axle, I've found that out. Why's there a bit left over? Oh that's the ah? Oh I'm pleased about that. It's alright, I remember now, it goes Well why don't you do it down here? It's a funny wheel that funny wheel for it. Yeah. yes. Do it in there somewhere like that That's right, we did actually yo you and your son managed it. Oh you're No, no actually we did quite terrible! Actually be better inside. Cos then it depends which way you want the host to come in, which side you want the host to come from. I don't think you know. I don't think you got the choice on this one Andy. No? Right that's he's done it, by gum Now take it out let it join the bird table. Ah Why didn't it flash then? Why doesn't it flash? Doesn't matter Cos the flash has run out. You bought it from B and Q. Look You Got it from . strong in that You tired? Well I wonder how strong they are, yes What time yeah. did you go to school? About one I think this is your lime, I'm drinking, Kevin Do you want that one wound up? is there one Yeah with lime in one? Yeah. Or you I just thought I'd tell you . I have got lemonade in it. They're both lime and lemonade in. Yes. I'm sorry that doesn't sound right. Cheers. though Maybe ! You need the flash on cos you've got innit? I can't resist you . serviette the way you've screwed it up, the way you screw it up. Did I? Yes. Well that's it, there's only one each Ooh ooh ooh ooh ooh! That's No was always quiet. I wish somebody else is! That's it. On red light like that, I didn't depress the Ooh. button far enough for it to take a picture then. When i whe when the red light you sh should keep your finger on longer. That's all I did was it? Oh to charge up the flash? Ooh is this my next lot? Mm. Great well I That's the that is the paper that Michelle Yeah. gave me We opening them now? Bit early. I'm not. Not putting We open them cos it's Christmas these? day. Dessert Do you know how many here for you? There's some up there. Well no I'm gonna open Michelle and Andy's and they're gonna open ours I didn't bring everybody else's cos we co we're seeing them Christmas Day. The light goes on I'll end up Ooh ooh ooh ooh. Hope you get something Got to use this just like my automatic camera? Yeah. These from Michelle and Andy You can take a picture now. have we? Mm. That's good Kev ! Uncle. Yeah. You got a drill? Yeah a drill . We'll borrow to go up the wall myself. left, right, left, right oh no? Yeah. I said we might as well climb up the wall now. Yeah, go there now? He's got one Adrian, now ask him if he can find it! Where's your drill, Kev? I'll walk round with him. You'll need Well have your pudding first, before you This flat erm Yes it looked rather Very nice. unusual didn't it? Erm we need an extension as well. Mm. I we I went on Thursday actually and I Don't worry I'll use the battery power. Is this bit yet? someone's just had their accessory Andy's battery power downstairs in the prison! It looks nothing when it is in pieces but as soon as it's done and together, it looks nice. with Zoe. The real McCoy? Especially what you saw. Why not? if you don't, I don't care. Eh? Everyone's a different . Do you think that's true? Mm? They're very useful around It says on here do no dismantle once the , I wonder why not, wonder why that is? Er Michael It must be will you for me? perhaps the plastic stretches. and then take it No! These are lovely. Really? Yes by the Hey you know they're always Yeah it's got this bit left over Er Paul what's that er Paul What a horrible ! What's that ? What? oh. Even that great big purple thing? That purple Yeah that purple thing. Well what has this got that's attached in here, eh? The hose goes on there. on there yes The hose comes from your tap and it goes on there Yeah. right? Now the hose for your garden goes on there I see Oh. Okay, so just unclip that by pulling the yellow See bit backwards like that if you stuck a bit on that yeah I know, we got that already, yeah unclip that from that there, put it on the end of your hose Yeah. that'll then wind and it winds the whole up. Have you picked a section No , oh Ruth look she's waiting hang on a minute. If we go there, she'll the right drill,. No we won't have the right drill bit! Pardon? I know what laugh innit? Mum, if you just I bought you all we've got. Mum, did you have that cup? Can I get you a drink ? No thanks . The gateaux. The The Dad, Dad is that What about Aim Hemslow No? drill bits! Yeah isn't it . Well Michael, what did you Right, here it is say about my fruit salad ? listen here It's purple! if you're Why can't it be purple ! What happened to it? It's all this this thing here. Blackcurrant. This your accessories? Blackcurrant Michael. Well I think that you clip on here. Is it with the hose? Like the garden. Is it blue? Yeah. Should be enough left over to push your face into Michael ! It's lovely. What did you have? I didn't want to . You just said well the fruit salad . How can it be fruit salad What is erm if it was purple?greenish or yellowish, What was that word, Eric? Oh Eric! like normal fruit salad. Yeah. Is he still doing his crossword? He was doing that about five minutes ago. Go and get the sweets . I'll in a minute. You'll have to eat it then I had two lunches. Oh did you? Grapes, smelly black banana Is that the then? Paw paw. Yeah. Oh yeah. Oh. Paw paw? black cherries So many people do. So many people get it now. doesn't it? Yeah but my done it in the morning go rush out to the post box Accessories spray gun Oh no I think Where was born? Mhm. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yugoslavia, but what town? Sofia. There you go. You ain't got that! Hold on Yugoslavia Sofia , is Bul Bulgaria. Bulgaria Sofia is in Bulgaria? Oh thank you, yes. No A something I something A A something I something A Oh, I could've you that I don't know Oh it'll be part Indian. No it's not Mother Theresa, it's Saint Theresa. got any letters there are five of them? Oh you saying number three's No I'm not Saint Theresa? Come on you work it out. Saint Theresa we wanted Oh I thought you were talking about Mother Theresa. We started this as well What yo you do is using that bracket there I'll tell you what on the wall we'll get we'll get ours and then we'll sort of mix and match them Like so the bracket Right. fits on there and that bit just rests on the wall, well then Right what you can do is wind it like that and the hose winds up. Oh good. You'll be a strong man by the end of it. It's alright you're off on Wednesday you can do it then. And you can have it like that if you want. Yeah I will. Just leave it like that. I I think it's better on the wall Yeah do you think at the moment you could take it all back out again, then? Yeah. Where do I put it, inside the garage? No I mean on the back wall by the tap! Yeah. Yeah that's where you want it, near the taps. Yeah we'll fix it up in a minute. It's just to see because then the Don't worry about it I'll manage Why We will What happens that's it we come and say right . Adrian have you got a hand drill? Much better on the wall. This is how Got a hand drill? No it's not the drill itself, it's more the bit Yeah. ? No it won't s it's too big they're are all wood drills dear. I've got Eric's somewhere. And that's an drill the what? How can you tell? Do you know that Adrian that in this house, we don't use How can you tell? an electric drill in this house any more cos the handle's You need Michelle to Yeah Dad is making a Any of them in there? Hold on hold on the are Never heard of that, that's just a straightforward drill that I think we'll go in. Auntie. That's erm a ten pounds Auntie for the Oh how old are they, yeah. You first what did you do to that, look? I didn't intend it to be purple. Yep. What about wall pliers? I blame Julie she made it You'll need wall pliers? Yeah I think I've got some. I'm There's half a cabbage There's no raw plugs in that packet, is there? Cabbage Uncle has uncle why do you put five Ps in here? go in there? try to sit See you just gotta that one, that one, that one and that one I was certainly out of it. you got a ? I was saying to Do you want any ! Keep an eye on that one! Did she Anyway You haven't got that one. I just than they had left. Yes. Like That's right poison deadly nightshade is Yeah. So that's where you put it is it? They've never had to survive long A couple of weeks. sleeping like that. Anyway that's the story of Right, I'll take this out. No that'll make a really good And if he's not had Ooh yeah it'll be good the pictures Eh? No we haven't got a drill bit. Or have you got the same blanks as I've got. I think I can manage Eric. We've got twenty seven across which is, birth place of Saint Theresa. Yeah I got a minu A blank I blank A It's in Yugoslavia I think. What makes you think she's from Yugoslavia? I always though was a symbol Eleven across wouldn't you, you buy things in it. something I V A. Kevin's hopeless. Cor when that door's open! Who's gone out there? Kevin. Kevin. when we went back in the kitchen and it's hot but but read the book I'd everything. ! Now we'll start this one. Did you get that? When you've read the book, you put it up. I dare you. We'll have the book and get the pieces together, yes I No it's when we were doing the electricity. He goes now I'll be a good girl, I won't Yes. more careful with him. Michael is too. Yeah. You'll have to read the book then, won't you It's that. Ho how do you like your new toy? taking it to pieces you can't get them back together again. Couldn't of intended to stay Yeah. if I couldn't. problem. Oh oh oh oh. Oh That's his problem! Yeah. Who's that? What's the ancient name for the the pieces don't you? Spanish peninsula? A Iberia? Oh no I don't but er Don't do that. I daren't do that. I fixed our washing machine. Don't do anything er our washing machine clothes. You two are paired up for the quiz, I had a lot of money and you couldn't do so be quiet! too strong. She knows the master so go away. When was that? depends not cos you went then I went don't touch that! Remember when I her washing machine? erm Yes, big ! Okay do it. I was so pleased that made me there Where did you do it, where did you do this? again. Well there's something wrong with the washing machine I got the She likes to go to bed with I did the whole washing machine and then I fixed it. take away and Oh aren't I clever! Aren't you a lucky boy Kev? Oh aren't I lucky! Thank you very much. It was about two years ago when I was about thirteen and It would've taken me about four hours to do it. Da ah ah ah ah ah. And Alright Ooh ooh and you've exhausted Yes I can't be bothered with But er Andy was always you see Don't really like to to you know I did have a that made me so close to it. My Dad was most impressed with that, But I always remember Ruth make it a desk, you see it only came and in she was sitting out there and this desk,all the pieces and parts were going everywhere. Given up now, I buy ready made. Ooh . do Alright there, for coffee? yes I did Yes. Ooh ooh. I might be getting a barbecue with Kev. Mm. I can't even get I said anyway this is you see and then later we're coming on. I the children. What? No. apart. Make up the sand . Which would it ! You don't have to ! Are you having a dear? She'd have to put the bags Oh yeah come on then. Or Where do you aim from? What you bossing me for? Get me down . Mind your beer, hold it tight! looking up my brother-in-law's nose real. have you got a bit of that blackcurrant? No thank you no thanks . Oh haven't put it on there long! It's lovely. We love that album. Which? This one? What tha What have I got here Was actually very nice, have the blackcurrant er sweet. And th th the the Yeah Nan And that lovely cake. Nan! Yep. Oh I got this one. Thank you. I know an even ruder person than that. Like who? Well I know you can but ! Hurry up! I am hurrying as fast as I can, don't Come on! Mhm. She's not going to recover from it ! Is that recording thing on? Yeah They've grown early, haven't they tha those erm What? what they called, narcissus. Yeah. Yeah. Did you love? No she didn't. No I didn't. No It's actually very nice. What's with it, sponge? fruit salad . No. It's Cream too Did you know about yesterday? The texture of it's really nice Dad Why didn't you know about yesterday mousse. what happened? Mousse. Mousse. Mum. Blackcurrants on. Did Lawrence tell you about Kevin No? ? Doesn't agree with me. He was everyone. It's strange and it's only About what happened yesterday Oh erm and Mi Mi Michael shakes erm I told them about the . Do I? What does he play? Gonna play the I he's supposed to be very dangerous . I told him you mustn't do that again Mm. Joy. Pardon? Two third of the meal gone without dropping any down . You didn't need to do this for a laugh! Fifty quid note ripped in half, oh no! Oh you can mend that's alright, ha ha. That's alright. No but, what the bloke had one half and you had to have the other half. Oh yeah . going. Alright now with ? I'm terrible at going er since er October I sort of become really isn't it? Is that for the Christmas shopping do you think? Possibly yeah I think Five minutes? and I think now so many people are on holidays and yo you really notice Oh yeah. Oh yeah. everybody going to work, you know rather than er in the summer. But the office improved, haven't they got all the decorators out now even Yes, that's sorted out now. You haven't got the hole there to put your head in at the moment then? No they've done that they've fixed the roof. They've done that. You quite like your office don't you? Yes. Well he's all on his own. Cor er good is it? Mm I mind though Where ? I think it's round about twelve miles. Sorry? a bit scared. please because you Ooh coupled lovely. Coffee's ready, everybody And er some coffee's they erm Any more coffees? Pardon? Did you have some done? Yeah. Yeah. Coffee? Nice isn't it? Mm yeah. Coffee Dad? Mm Mm. Coffee? Did Ruth make this? Er Oh yes I did. I think I'll have, yes please Coffee Dad Yeah well who's was it? Can I play ? ? Usually mine or church. What was Oy! the hose for, I . It's very nice, thanks the trees. called. Ooh. Ooh yes but she doesn't want to . Do you want coffee, please? Yes please. Do you want coffee, please! Unbelievable ! Don't have to remind me Mum! Thank you. Do you want a cup of tea? Er anybody want tea? Bet he's not working across the road, he's not coming home Thing is, he'll think for lunch. look at that ! You might want seconds, that I want. Ha ha ha. So you're going on Monday to Do you want coffee Paul? Molly's? No thanks. They can't go Tuesday. I'll have tea later one two three She's got I don't know what I'm gonna do. What's ? How come you gotta give forty tapes to the lady then? Well she gave us twenty tapes and she said That's what to know. we she'd like at least ten Yeah. but she le left us twenty. Why? Well cos that's how many they want from each person. Why do they want it though? I don't know Michael. They're building a dictionary. It's for a dictionary. For this for listening to. A whole dictionary? To see how many words Well people use, well yes Oh right people like you. and a lot of words that people Their computer. do use aren't obviously yeah so in dictionaries. No. so you name words Anybody heard of the word lary? Yeah. Yes. Yes. That's in no dictionary how do you spell it and what does it mean? Just lary, yes it is, it's in a new dictionary Well you don't know how you spell it, but it's right. Is it right? Lary No. I means yucky but No it doesn't no It's rather yucky. It's erm Lary means Yeah like Lary. I think actually , I think actually No lary means mouthy Dad. to the teacher. No lary means er mouthy it means like you're cheeky. all of my children That's right, that's what I thought that's when it's right. Well I don't know. But lary meant in a in our time lary meant someone's wearing a sort of bright green an No lar Yeah. pink No I mean a lot of people would say that this was a in time you'd say that was a lar Like a lary tie? Yeah. No that's Don't take any notice of anyone around here, it means mouthy, okay? What it means is is things like someone's got a Cheek? a cheek, yeah. No I said to Auntie I just s , Mum I just s I just find it in the dictionary I'll give you five pounds . I told hey, I I I told erm Wary or lary? Lary. I told the lady what it means i lary means mouthy, okay? Just in case you didn't hear the first time. Well it's not in any dictionary that we can find and yet everybody knew i , all the children from work go It's a slang word. don't be so lary, Lary Lary Lary,yeah . Well, you know One, two, three O'Larey. It's well in from the sixties. Oh now that's an Irish song. Yeah. Yeah but lary means mouthy now. word. No it Like gutty. Lary means mouthy or she'd was lary clothes, loud clothes. yet. Yeah but lary lary actually means loud like, but it can mean loud clothes or loud mouth. Yeah John's at work. Now. I've been learning that. Paul It's a word. It is loud, it's loud clothes and loud mouth, but it's the same as what you said so It means It's loud, yeah not really Oh I'll be more laid back. the day they sell things like that lary don't get stressed Yeah. All these and they do as well. the things that we used to use as verbs, they use as nouns I think I must Stressed, don't get stressed. nouns are part of your Michael . you're the ones who can do, get stressed Yeah erm I Thank you fans, I love you all! Michael. She senses the teacher in you Ruth. Yes. Yeah? Eh. Even I can put a computer in like those Look how I put that microphone. Mhm. when they, use it back properly, but they don't, Michael go er er er! in a computer like this so that Aha ha ha ha . And this woman had apparently Dead cool,. Put it down! Like Alice I have. Yeah. er yes where they li That's really really common! Oh no . Especially on the tape. Were you with hi with him on Saturday,do that? the kind of conversation you go up and down. Yeah so put . Yeah. Yeah put it I'll put it yeah take it but Not unless we find out Can you imagine the people who'll get paid to sort out that lot millions, I mean, probably millions of tapes will be made. Some would be quite funny I should think some of the comments we're making ! Imagine the poor chap They've probably ! ! Must be horrible doing that in the restaurant, last night, last night I went to pay the books. we had two weirdest people, we had two for I was there! and Ah! we were nearly under the table Ooh it was a terrible and all of a sudden this man said, I'll be jiggered! Then she went right under the table, so Karen's trying not to giggle and I was probably alright, until she kicked me under the table Paul! This man said to her, this wife, we assume Yes? er we have to get the give and take blend just right, so it sounded like a coffee ! And the conversation was really funny. They're nice Ruth, where did you get those? Auntie Can't remember? Auntie! It's gone Sainsbury's. I I can fill a whole tape Oh do you want one? I would always er Auntie! last year but I couldn't Auntie! Do you like them? For a Auntie Auntie. Course you can I can tape still some slow words Don't you like ? Auntie! It is nice in coffee. Auntie! You have when you have it Auntie. with Tia Maria Do you want me to do a slang words on it? Yes Michael , no I could do a couple of tapes worth of slang words that they've never heard of before. ! No Michael's street language. Auntie Thanks! We've got a . Is it? It's what? Have you got two or you got one ? No, one. I've got the one,I'm with Mutty . Don't you dare Do you like biscuits? Yes. What was that Paul, was it Oh we're the other way around. Ooh my I is open! Dad's on my erm thought I was ever so good no I usually have baths I I usually got erm I usually get Oriental but I I'm not sure, I haven't tried this yet. What's that one? Erm Marina Marina Marina Is that the new one, Marina? Dunno, ask Paul. I've I I've got the Oriental shower gel fro got the Oriental shower gel, that means I've the Oriental and Marina. Well what's that with the that's the gel and then the what, the shower gel? Yeah. I love that deodorant. Probably Yes. Can I leave that with you then? Mm. That's for Michael's birthday. Can I have a look Well at the birthday? Isn't it for Michael's birthday . Is it your birthday? Yeah, no smell my hand! Yeah, oh No, actually that was supposed to be for Christmas, as it goes. That's the aftershave then . Does he like it ? Yeah he likes Lynx stuff. Mm. No it's that way I've already put it in my handbag. Ah can I have it now? Mm. Auntie. I haven't got enough for your birthday. Auntie, can I have it now? No. I wanna open it it's only a couple of days after Christmas isn't it? Ladies and Gentlemen Kevin says would you please move cos these are all teams for this afternoon. Oh The reason why teams have only two members, Karen and Andrew, is because Kevin says that you two are so clever and he said, you would be bound to win that puts the kiss of death on the So Andrew, Kevin and Karen are together so that's alright, then it's Michelle and Mutty and Paul and it's Nana and Adrian, my brother's Well Nana and Adrian and Michael are sitting in there. And Nana's sitting there. Papa, me and Lisa. There's a star prize for the Well we got a good team. Who ? And the star prize is the whole of three Ferrero Rocher. Wow! The ones that she couldn't have Cos I'm on a diet anyway. So I'm gonna I'll read out the groups to you. try and get a packet and half of each. We'll be alright, won't we? Lisa an And the quiz is nothing to do with me. Who did it?? it's me. Lisa! she wins. We, no Kevin's not actually in this quiz cos he's gone. every single bit No he's the quiz master. of newspaper No he's the quiz master, he made it up. Oh. I mean, really hard! Adrian. So who are you with, Magnus Magnuson? With Andy just the two of us. won't it. Because they'd know . I wasn't aware of this And then I don't we've got the . She looks thick, but she's wiz , wizard at general knowledge. know every single person in the picture. Have you put the tape on Dad? Oh do we need glasses? Well I think I do. Go and get your glasses! Have the teams gotta sit together? Yeah If you need the break All out, everything out. Right. Right. What we'll do now then I've got my glasses but I haven't got the . We're a team. Can I do i No I've got the the firs anyway. the first round is I was waiting for you, I was waiting for you to say one team of four, where Bamber Gascoigne doesn't have this trouble, look Excuse me. the first round Excuse me. Out the way. Excuse me! Out the way,! The first round is pictures so if you Alright keep your voice down Ooh I don't have to do that. Shall I move over here? Is it your birthday this week? I do like that tie, I've said that before, haven't I Yeah. That was the erm Well Michael's gotta go and sit with his team over there. It was a good one though wasn't it? It was No Po po Papa but I said Why don't you a why don't you all sit on a Alright little bit of that one. Yeah alright. Michael. Mike you've gotta No, no, no, no, we're alright ar our team's Ah. okay here. Well we're alright here. I'll sit on the floor. There you are. Right. Is Dad alright now? quiz masters can go over there then. Yes. No sit there. Are you alright there Dad, or ? Karen, we can . by Thursday. Do you see I was sat there shouldn't you? Shall we sit What team Michael was on? Oh right. Michael Michael's with Adrian and Nana. Right. Yeah only so you could Alright well sit down there then. Right there you are how's that? It's alright. me go back? Yeah. Who's gonna be there then? I'll go here. It's se Ah ah ah Lisa! And Lisa can sit in the middle on the Ooh ooh ooh on the . Lisa you're sitting there. Are we being recorded? Why have you got your headphones in it? Er it's not At the same time? Something else he's got there. Where's ours, where's our Sony? Oh up there. Alright. Don't walk off with it will you ! You're not supposed to be Four Only four. Well you set things up. You divided them. You set the papers up. Ruth a one one bit of paper each team. Can we have table ? Are we gonna have pen? . there that one. grab the table quick. Pen, I'll get a pen . Pens are there by the telephone. Oh give us then will you. No I wo I won't have one. Thank you Here are Joy, rest it on the back of Everyone got a pen? your hat. Mum! Joy? I've got it. You have to to win a box of chocolates. Well you work for yourself, I'll work for me. Just the Ferro Ha. Oh Is that all? We'll work really hard. Michael. Not really. Okay, about ten minutes. Next! Don't turn over these papers. Was it you Dad? God it's like an exam! Don't turn over your papers. Well Yeah, this is a mock. Mock Do we write the answers straight off the sheet? Ah? Yes the answers On the are in a little box, under each picture put the name what you, who you think it is, underneath, in that part Have we got to be quiet? If you shout out other people will hear Other people would pick it up. starting Starting now turn your sheets over now. It's up there goes in the box, Joy. Right, cos Do we have to give a name of a character or Well to be quite honest when it's when it's I'll give one point for the character's name Uncle! but if you get the actor who's playing it have one? We'll put anyway. Yes . You're supposed to write it on there, Joy. Oh on these, what did you give me a paper for? No, no No that's my future on, sorry! That's a that's for They won't need that at the moment. Mike, you're supposed to be helping ours. Are you taking part? Go away! Dad, do you name the characters then? You get one mark for a character name and if you name the actor who's playing it, two marks. You get one mark, one point for the character name Kev. Yes. You got another picture ? one for the character name and a extra one point or something for, if you can the other one yeah. If you get the character name one point It's a good idea though If you want a spare one or are you all happy? We're alright. Anybody want a spare one? Me. across. Uncle, Uncle. A spare one there. What one point for the name and one point Yeah Kev? For a character name,the, if you get the one mark for the character Dad, why was that a singer an extra mark type singer ah. Oh no you couldn't get it for singer. Ah. Bu good then. Right. That's good though. Oh he's not a character it only works in only works in I don't know who the actor is, I know who he is It's hard I haven't a clue who that is! Who's that person? Yes yes I know Who's that person? He was on the variety Oh that's what's his name, yeah. Well as you all know I'm really good on names. Keep your voices down the ears are listening. The walls Ah. have ears. That's Write it down Politicians, I haven't a clue, why did you fill it up with politicians, for goodness sake! I didn't know there were any politicians on there anyway,politicians. I know who number two is. Yeah, It's easy. that's the easiest one on the sheet! Well we've only got two to get. Have you? Yeah but we've only got two! No but we need We need , we've only got one more Yeah, well Kevin was right then, wasn't he? Got five left. How many you got? Er all but only wants one two. have only got two left . We give up, we haven't got a blinking clue! No. We got one Two, we've got two we don't know. Few more minutes Wouldn't matter if we had minutes, Kev. Oh come on. Can't do any of them. What! Oh no. Hardly done any of them, got about five. Oh! I've got five to go. Hate to tell you, that was the easy page! Have we got fifteen ? We have. Yeah but ten of them are ! They're not. Oh no they're not. Ah? Mum. You can't ask her! I wasn't going to, I wanna say something Mum You know what I mean you know the one who's got Mrs always She says er only one Mrs er Yeah but he said, put th what they're concerned with, you ge get an extra point. Yeah. if you say what they link. No it's the character character name Yes. or the actor's name. I've just put down erm whatever I know that is Alright, time's up . but I don't know his first name. Why's one of them lying on her back? I think we've done better with Mother. Mm? I should think you'd have easy done better than Mum Did you spot the cheeky one, number twenty? Oh I knew that one straight away. Yeah I knew straight away, easy one. You can tick your own. Do you get two points for a totally correct answer an I'll decide as I go along. Oh. Oh listen to that ! Decide as I go! Right, ready? Oh Uncle, what's his name first? Eh? No wait till we get What's that other picture there? You alright? Yeah . Okay, ha. Right number one who any of the answers, give me some answers. Fagin, Ron Moody. Dicken's character. Tha that's right yeah I It's wrong. Isn't it, it is . Fagin I give you one, for Fagin. We've got Dicken's character. Anybody got a name, the right name? I've got He was the Fagin? No I He was a Fagin, If they get that he was originally Karen, this is a different What about Dicken's character? Do you get one for that? Took his part. Alec Guinness. Yeah. Alec Guinness! You get one for Alec Guinness, one for Fagin. No, do you get for a Dicken's character? Er no, no, no, no. We could of got Fagin as well, couldn't we? Right Yeah we got Fagin Next I I don't know his name in He's in Coronation Street I'll give you one for that Yeah. What? Alec Gilroy I'll give you two for his It's Alec Gilroy right one for that I'll give you two for his actor's name His mos his other real name is Ron something real name Yeah. Is it Ron something? Nearly. Don, Ron Ronald According to me, it's Roy Barraclough. Ah ah ah. Ah that's it! Two for Roy Barraclough. We get one for that. No we don't. Why not? Get two something Alec Gilroy No you can have the name of the That's You get one for Coronation Street, you get one if you got the title Yeah that's of the show. one for Coronation Street. Dad We get one, put a one Dad Right, three is You've only got one. Bernard Manning ! Bernard Manning ! Yeah ! We've put a ? One for that. A cook! Is that one? Who was he? One for that, yeah. Who was he? Bernard Manning. cook yeah one. Next one. You could of got Tom Jones four, I cut that down as much as I could so Next one. Tom Jones. Tom Jones. Tom Jones, yes Yeah singers One for that. Two! Do you get Two for Tom Jones! Why? Because we got the right name! No, one that's only co couldn't be anything else Ooh, you rotter! It's all the same for everybody. Yes. Is it singer, do you get one for singer? No we'll have si , singer, no we're not having that. Nope. The next one. We're not having actor for number No. either. Oh yes ! Who? Richard Dreyfuss. Yes. do I get one? I didn't know that anyway. Karen said it's a man in Always. He is isn't he, Mum? Who? the film Always, Yeah yeah Well I dunno, you're the man in the chair! Yes! Alright one for that. Is it one or two for Richard Dreyfuss then, anyone? Who got six? He's an American comedian on the show. On the Variety show. Yeah. Do you think we could have his name ! Do we get one It's over for comedian? It was on last night. Oh Rabbi Mason I've got. Who? Rabbi Mason. Well yeah, he is a rab He is a rabbi he is Mason he's Jackie Mason Ah. He is a rabbi. He was a You should get two for that? Yeah, Can we Joy. an American comedian on the Variety show? Well did I well we did American chat show host. Dad. Well he was on last night. Yeah. He's not a chat show host! Dad, dad dad! He's American. Dad ! Yeah, one for comedian, that's alright. Then American . You and Michael,! Gonna be something! When I go through this, I know who's gonna go . And number five is Saunders Guinness. Yes yes that'll be Saunders. That's not right! Is that two or one? Mum, do you think I could have a pen? Michael what did you do you can't write it in now, Mum ! Mum Yes? One for you, cos they got Ernest Saunders, two Oh. for them. Mum, did you get number ten by the way? I don't know yet. Number eight, have you got ? Yeah. Tick tack man! Yeah You get one for tick tack bookmaker Wait Channel four ! Tick tack man we've got. Anybody got his name? Two for his name. What is his name? I can't think. John McCrirrick Never heard of him! So can we have tick tack man? Tick tack, one Got it I've got that. bookmakers, one Yeah. tick tack's, one yep. Next one's And I heard Dad say straining, that is close. Jack Nicholson not John Nicholson! She said John! I said that. Jack Nicholson and he was straining he was pulling up that water you know the Jack Nicholson. water Do you get one for that. Can we have one, for if he looks as though he's straining? No. Have we got one? Can we have one for Jack Where? Nicholson? This one and two we said I think we're two for Jack cos Jack and Nicholson I didn't know that. Oh we wouldn't get two for Tom Jones ! Sneaky ! And you didn't give us two Right No, one for Tom Jones! one alright, one. One ha ha Cos we had it on one And one for And he got Jack Nicholson Yep. Oh we knew he was but we ! Can I get a word in edgeways here? What? Did he play Daryll in the Witches of Eastwick? No. Yeah, he played it in the Witches Did he? of Eastwick, but I don't think Yeah, well we got Daryll. Well you see Ha ha ha! And you say the part? Yes. Pardon me. Alright, one for that Half. No! One for that and two for you. See it was who I thought it was. Paulie knows number ten, he's Say that again Mum. Bart Simpson. Two points Yep. for Bart Simpson. I bo yes. Bart and Simpson. Excuse me! Why can't Yeah. we have two for Tom Jones? No I've decided. I can't see that! Why not No sorry I've deci , I said I'd make it up as I went along ! Number eleven Two for Bart Simpson the next one is Heron again Heron One for Heron One for Russian? Russian! Yeah it's a hero Russian isn't it? name though. Heron Who is it? it was a it was an Give us a clue. It is Heron Heron is a Rohnson something? Yes. Yeah. I should've known this but Dad ? Well I know it's wrong, since I hadn't put it down but I had Heron down. If you knew it was Rohnson why didn't you put his name down! I don't know, ha ha ha! You big wally! I got the next one. from the head of the . I know the next one. Dad. Hey! We got that. to Come Dancing. I thought I'd put her over there Kevin, we've got Lancia down. Lancia? Yeah. Yeah, what for Heron For Mr Rohnson Oh, we got that. Why? I don't I don't see the connection. Well he owned Lancia as well as Heron Hard luck if you didn't know that. Well we've Well I think I should get three points for knowing that now. Not a lot of people know that. How many points for Angela Rippon? Ha? One o w one point off for being cocky! How many points for Angela Rippon? One that's only have one, that's easy. Cor one! Who got thirteen ? Ken Maxwell. He's first Maxwell . No it's Kevin Maxwell Kevin Maxwell Who? Oh I got Ken Maxwell. Oh I only got one. You only get one, we got two ! Ken, Ken, Kevin Maxwell. Why what's he do? Who is it? He's the son of, Maxwell's son. Maxwell Maxwell, Kevin Do you ? Yeah. Marquis of Blandford! Dad dad, dad! I'm glad you you know! You're closer than you think Like what? Move back come on, Chelsea One point You creep go on then put it there. Fifteen was your Who was it? Who was and I do of course How, tell him when he was young. Now sixteen, go on. Who was the What? football. Jimmy Greaves Greaves , I knew, we know I knew I knew his face. Jimmy Greaves. Who wrote, who, what are the We got, we got football Chelsea football She answered football Chelsea football right No Great Crystal Palace Good boy Minus one, huh. Don't believe One football Nothing really Oh No, we didn't get anything Who's on the One. Oh there were two pair of ones Right,this evening What can we have? One mark. That's four. Two for magic So. Yeah, we got magic and the Have you got And, and, that he acres Won't give up a point for Who didn't, who didn't get number eighteen? Rupert Bear When person was alive. Phone call. What? No its alright, we've talked him out a minute I thought, how many places you get Rupert Two, two's the maximum you can get You take three from my last one, why was that? What you get three for? magic No, if you're not getting Oh, come off it three Oh I No. Why not? We won't Don't be greedy. gonna hear from Rupert, one One What about Rupert Bear? Good try, but no. Arnold Schwarzenegger, Terminator I could be a Arnie Schwarzieger Two Two for that cos they got the film as well Oh, and the next one is Kevin Bambers And Jack, and Jack the Ripper. How many did we get with Kevin? How many points? One for Kevin Can we change teams please? Twenty one. They should of been all out in teams . Can I take the spare one into work? Twenty one. Twenty one you stupid . Oh right Clever dicks on the sofa. I got only wrong answer Ha, ha, ha, twenty six over there. That's not fair cos we never Right, I got so many wrong answer, I put Cruel. I heard that Right come on Ruthie Fourteen and a half. Oh bottoms. Half, where'd you get a half from? Ah well we had, you had we had that, that bloke Americans, so we got half a point. Right who's good at geography? Oh well Ruth should be, she's got a It's absolutely got nothing to do with geography Well You know why he's they did a quiz at Phillips Oh you can You need your papers, oh there it is. Yes, you any good at this? Oh, we've decided not to give it to America so oh I know what it is Lisa, I've been really honest and I haven't got a clue, look all numbered, I want the na , names of the Oh give it out you've got to be joking. Just write them in the boxes Joy on the paper No it says it on the paper. I haven't got a I'd like to keep them I'd like to keep them wrapped Michael cos I take it to work. I was gonna screw it up and throw it at you. Neither have I. I've done three and I think that's wrong. I haven't got a clue either. Michael got any ideas? Dad, are these maps to scale? What? no way is that big. Are you a calling me ? Well are these, are these to scale? They all, well, that is Yeah really that big? Mm, mm. There's nothing in the middle that big. Yes there is, but it's got a new name, called If we put the old name do we get one mark? You'll get, yes you'll get one for that Can we put that this one's near, No you can't put near No,isn't it mum? Yes. I'd rather have South America I think Andy I bet you lot, I bet you I know who's going to score the highest this time. Who? Who? Karen, wait and see, I'll tell you if you're right. What is Joy doing? What you've got there in your hand? Oh. Joyce writing, got it all sussed out. I wouldn't say that Paul have most. I don't think so, no, it's interesting. Is it switched on or you listening to something? Why couldn't you given us well known countries? I tell you what Kevin if you'd done Europe I think you'd of had, we'd of had just as much trouble. No, no, I'd of done Europe. No, cos we haven't got a clue We've finished. Have a guess. Finished, I know lots of countries in just don't know where they fit. It's right What, no we haven't done this one I know. Oh yes, I know what, don't know what it's called now. Right, we've finished. Give the answer to the We don't know any of them, but we've finished, I've got Oh don't give them any more time As much as I could do south of the equator I've just done Europe or South America. Well hopefully there won't be too much argument this time. Unlike the last Who requires more time? Who wants more time? Yes we do. cos we're only just finishing. Should of just done it though. No, we didn't do Africa Didn't we? Not enough Yeah I do. Well you might but only at that age Go on then Mike if you do it. Well why aren't you asking the questions then? I did it in the first year, I'm in the fifth year now, that was four years ago. Oh yes, well then it wasn't National Curriculum. God is it four years ago? Can we put in Sahara Desert? Can we put things that were there aren't any numbers fellows? I'm gonna put Sahara Desert,. I know the South Africa It's the positioning that's difficult, ten, nine, you, cos what Can get some points, Are you ready? Ready as we'll ever be. Uncle we have, Yeah ready as we'll ever be. Uncle if we had some other places in do we get more points cos Sahara Desert is where we no, no, no, no not . O K ready. Yeah. Yeah. Right who's got number one, this Zambia Mm. Botswana. Nambia. It's Namibia anyway, but it's not Botswana. the one below, it's bad luck Botswana. Botswana. Oh I thought number twelve was had a big war for a long time, Angola. Oh Angola. Fancy not knowing that These are all the easy ones, I picked all the easy ones. Two. Right, you better Zimbabwe get two Right, two is I told you. You wouldn't listen to me. No, but it's, where's it's erm, it's you it's not very well can you imagine, can you imagine on the top of it Dad Zambia's L-shaped that is. how do you know why sorry? because that's not right up there then Oh,. That's misleading. This is perfectly good scale so it's accurate, yeah I've just, I traced it that's O K. I thought it joined up on Mozambique. Sorry? I thought the border was on Mozambique. Border of what? Mozambique What about Mozambique's on the coast 's not on the coast. Dad Yeah, but then you, that impression made me think that all, it's all South Africa, which, which was why And then I thought was erm I'd coloured it in for you I said, I said, I didn't think there'd be much discussion over this. Kevin just take hold of this will you and have Number three. Number three. Syria. Ethiopia. Kenya. What's three No,next to number four Three Three Dad Yes, who got Sudan? We got one. I thought Ethiopia was Sudan now? At last. Sudan, mm. We put number eleven as Sudan. Oh we didn't put anything. Syria. Right number four someone Malawi Yeah, very good. Malawi oh Niapaland I give No. What? Niapaland. Number five. Number five Nigeria? Yeah. Gold Coast Nigeria . Who's got Nigeria? Er . Oh Oh Six, Libya Algeria. Morocco, Morocco Morocco Yeah. You got that one? had that one. Seven I had Morocco. Number seven. Tunisia. Alger Greece Oh. Very good, you said you didn't get them. Only got two out of seven Tunisia . What is seven? Tunisia . Tunisia . What did we have? I can't Oh we had Morocco the wrong way round . Eight, we got Egypt Oh. it's Egypt. Number eight, Egypt. Yeah. You all get that one? Yeah, we all got that. But you see doing them in the isolated spot Makes it harder yeah you don't join them up, I mean I've got to know the borders Oh Yeah, that's the same for us all Oh it's so unfair isn't it? Yeah, but you Did anybody get number nine as well? Nigeria. Didn't get any one. Oh, I got there. Number ten then. Number ten? Toga. Close. Ivory Coast. Oh. I did. Have you written What did he put? He put three times. Right, who's Number eleven? Mozambique Ethiopia. Sudan. Is that it? Number eleven Mozambique Kenya . Oh is it? Oh got that right Kenya's lake, Kenya's got a border with Why who thinks was a country? I thought Kenya was a Yeah. Botswana, Botswana Who thought twelve was a No I would. Congo. It's a Conga. Yes it is, it's the Belgium Conga with Well honestly I get the back of the You put Belgium Congo's, no Good gracious. I'm ashamed of myself. Didn't get anything there did you? Add up your scores, one for every one you got right. Well I'm totally ashamed. So am I, cos I, I don't like that map, I don't like that map at all, I mean if you drew a map Look lady twenty years of don't you Don't that was traced, a . The point is I never had a map you haven't joined up so you know which country You couldn't join them wide, join them up and confuse actually. No. You should, you should do another one on the counties. I know, I've got a map of that, it's unbelievable. Kenya, Kenya was this one. Oh. Oh the counties were in English, but Well what did you do I don't know I might not What did you get? Two The counties I could do that. Oh yeah. Yeah, the counties. I'm very disappointed. Two out of twelve Yes, I should be between Malawi and Well I bought cake and . Right, Paul, you got nineteen, mum's got, mum and Andy Hey you say the picture one was separate. You got nineteen? You said the scores for the picture one was separate Oh you old clever dick I made, I made then up Two I made You got three on that. Oh, nineteen altogether, that's good, twenty three altogether, that's good, twenty nine Oh. They've got Nineteen and a half you're catching up, you're catching up, right. That half might make all the difference. Were losing Yeah, might. How you've got twenty nine? True, true It's a bit expensive The fact you box him round the ears to get the half point, true I think. are we? Yeah. Can we change the more what was I saying? When we gonna ask the question? Right, Peter's get ready, questions One to ten? One, thirteen called Peter and you do One One to what? Thirteen Ask some questions that One to thirteen me and Paul will Well I have got, at least you'll get some of these, these, these are all Christmas questions. Oh. Thirteen. Ruth's books, so she'll probably know all them Say the Father Christmas joke now. I don't know a Father Christmas, you do, you know Who says ho, ho, ho? Father Christmas. Father Christmas lying on his back. Alright, O K, yes, I, I knew it would die so that's what I said, but That one right Right, in which pantomime would you find the following characters? Is this just number one? Number one, a character called, don't call out Don't call out. write it down, people here will be giving away your points, a character called Dandeanee whisper it or write it down so that people can't hear, that's right. Everybody ready? Yeah. Number two Mm, mm. right Yeah. A character, a cow sold for a bag of beans. Oh. Beans, beans. In what pantomime? Just one bean. No it's a sack of them. No, two. No, you're quite right. Why? Because you said Because you told her number one, in what pantomimes are these characters? Are these characters , yeah. I got A, B We all thought it was all part of number one. Question two that was. Yes, number three. I haven't had what question two is, what is it? A cow sold for a bag of beans, what pantomime was that in, a cow sold for a bag of beans. Excuse me, as we're being recorded it is a pantomime You're well informed then. Oh yes. Pantomime, correction, pantomime Can't we Pantomime Pantomime loved to be in a pantomime. Recorded all this? Yep. Oh dear oh dear, right Any a widow who runs a Chinese laundry Is that the name of a thing? I'll give you one mark Yeah, but is that I want one mark for the pantomime and one mark for the character I was listen Of the what, just for number three? Yes, whenever I say. Right. What you You have the whole class yelling at you, that ain't fair Mick Number four. Can we have the first question again please? A character called Dandeanee, in what pantomime? Question number four, a very large white bird in what pantomime? Whisper it, very quietly Oh yes, well done Question five, coming off the pantomimes now Yeah. what kind of fruit sauce is traditionally eaten with turkey? I know you know the answer to that one. Karen's is the best in the world . But dad, are we , are we pantomime Yes, that was after the, you realize that was after the That, that was after I did say he did say that was after the pantomime. Off the pantomime. Number six was the sending of Christmas cards introduced in the year eighteen forty six, eighteen forty eight or eighteen fifty. Very So who can guess, come on who can guess? Can you read them out again please? I have the three Eighteen forty six, eighteen forty eight, or eighteen fifty take a guess can't you or you have one in three chances this is one I didn't know, who were the Magi? I hope you do know now. Yes I do know now. What do you mean? Who were the Magi, what, who where they and I'll give you an extra mark for each one of their names, I didn't know they had any names. Who How could Magi's M A G I I know Magi I know two of them can't spell it what's the third one called One mark if you could tell me who, who, what, who they were. What, what? One mark for each one of their names. I don't know it at all. I won't blame I know two of the names the third, I do Ruth's got it right, I know . Can we get extra point I didn't know Yeah I know, but they're brilliant. in pairs are thought to be clever dicks, sorry. I did have Michael, but Oh is he? Yeah, he's If I could remember the third one, we'd get another point wouldn't we? I bet he'd might of known that one. Can we, do we get points if we put down what they brought? No, no. Well that's right, give it away the first part of the question Ah? Question eight, Right, Seven, oh no, eight. eight, We missed seven. Where did Jesus, Mary and Joseph flee to when Herod decreed that all baby boys should be killed? You repeat that Where did Jesus, Mary and Joseph flee to Oh I know, I think when Herod decreed that all baby boys should be killed? Yes that right . Is it? Yeah. I think it's that. The bible. Is it Bethlehem? No,that was where he was born. We might catch up a bit here. Yeah, we might. If I could remember the name of the third wise man. Ready, question nine, these the following lot I want you to fill in the blanks Fill in the blanks. Every time I say blank there's a word, right? Yeah. Kevin. How many words in a blank? Somebody just gave it away. Oh is this nine, ten and eleven I saw blank, blank come sailing by I saw blank, blank Which number is that? Which number is that? That's number nine, fill in the blanks. I saw blank, blank come sailing by question ten blank, blank but once a year What's that? Blank, blank, but once a year once a year actually. I like, it is my favourite It's something to do with Number eleven. What was ten then? What Blank, blank but once a year something, something but once a year. Blank, blank, but once a year. Do you get two points if you get both words? She I think it's gonna be split like that cos some people are gonna have one word perhaps , I don't know, I'll have to Good job I like number eleven , I like number eleven, all I want for Christmas is my blank front blank think hard. Mine, that's happened to me, two weeks before . , hang on say it again. All I want for Christmas is my blank front blank. Do Michelle? Oh come on Michelle, it's obvious I know The answer is that and that, not that. Yes, that's the answer. Now Michael should of been here for this one, Oh something to do with, about God Bless us everyone said blank, blank What Let him finish God Bless us everyone said blank, blank yeah Yeah. God Bless us everyone How many years ago was that? said blank, blank. Hard one that innit? Oh somebody who said it? Yeah, yeah. God bless us everyone Michael said it . said blank, blank I know, you should got that one. Yes you should get that one blank, blank, did this. We went for Mutty you went as well, you saw Michael play the part. Yes I did, he got up and said God bless us everyone And Michael played it. Oh yes on the head wouldn't it? The only laugh I remember. Right last one. wasting his Yes. What was eight again, can you just Eight? Eight, question eight. Where does Mary and Joseph Where did Jesus, Mary and Joseph flee to when flee Oh yeah. Herod decreed that all baby boys should be killed? We've had that haven't we? Yeah I know. That's all we've got The last one , the holly and the ivy now they are both blank, blank. We don't Holly and the ivy now they are both blank, blank. We've got a lot of right ones here. Ooh. I can't remember the name of the third wise man. Just remember what it is So if we get two of the wise men I'm glad you can't Ruth we get two points I'm very glad you can't It disappeared. I'll be silent as well If these answers are right, you did very well. Right. Answer to the first one. Here you are then. Really want one more wise man and we get full marks Are we all ready? Yes Yeah. Question number one, a character called Dandeanee. Cinderella Cinderella Puss In Boots No it's Cinderella Cinderella Cinderella. Well done Joy you've got that one. Yeah, I knew that was wrong Yeah when I got the other. A cow sold for a bag of beans. Jack and the Beanstalk Yes, one mark. A widow who runs a Chinese laundry Widow Twankey Widow Twankey with Aladdin Aladdin. Aladdin. Aladdin Aladdin If both you get two. Oh yes. Yes. What's that? Oh right Mark for Aladdin , mark for Widow Twankey. Yeah. A very large white bird. Mother Goose. Mother Goose One mark. Ugly Duckling, that was a good guess Lisa. Mother Goose. No party pieces What you Cranberry sauce cranberry sauce Good try though, hang on, hang on let me say the question first What is the British sauce traditionally cranberry sauce Cranberry sauce. Right, what, when was the sending of Christmas cards introduced? Give us, just give us , give us Forty eight Eighteen forty eight Eighteen fifty It was eighteen forty six,eighteen forty six Oh Nobody got, eighteen forty six. Who got it No one got it I the middle one I, can I answer number seven please? Number seven, who were the Magi? Wise men. One mark for three, three wise men Wise men King Kings The three kings They get one for that, they Yeah, but they ain't got their names Yeah Melphor Beltravers Oh shut up. and Casper. You've read that. I didn't. We did Casper, we get four for that All three yes, How many did we get four for that, four altogether for that, Ruth And if you just have wise men? One Read this book didn't you? I didn't. She got all that on her own. Don't forget I'm Egypt, Egypt Where did Jesus Ah, you missed one No I didn't, Egypt, where did Jesus, Mary and Joseph flee to, Egypt. Oh we had that till No. Three ships. Three ships. Three ships Three ships Three ships, one mark. Yeah. You get two for . No, no. Nothing. Number ten any wants Xmas Christmas comes Comes but once a Christmas comes Oh yeah. but once a year. So that's two for that is it? No one. Christmas comes, you have blank, blank,two You can give us two for No, unless someone's got just Christmas. Two front teeth. All I er No, no The answer is two teeth Two teeth not two front teeth Cos I crossed it out. Not according to the judicator That's what we put Will somebody sing it. All I want for Christmas is my Two front teeth. Oh Two teeth, two Yes, the answer is two teeth, alright, front, yeah O K. Can I cross that I put front in brackets. Oh That was one was it? One mark for all these yeah Tiny Tim, yes. Tiny Tim, yeah. I put little Tim No, half, half, half. No nothing it's wrong. Number thirteen holly and the ivy now they are Full grown Where'd you get that? One, two, three, four, five Well Oh you, won't get the rest of these. Eighteen. Twelve. Fourteen How do you get fourteen? Fourteen and nineteen and a half. Paul, thirty three and a half. Nineteen and a half. I'm really not with this you know I'm not What did you get grandma? Well What did you get? You get? Twelve. Ooh. Ooh. fourteen Funnily enough we've got fourteen Fourteen so I can get it in Oh yeah you'll get your bonus Well Yeah. Not enough Not enough, is it? What you get mum, mum? I'll add them up for you. And there's another I think ours is thirty three and a half Ruth I think What we got now then our , twenty nine isn't it? She's just adding them up, she'll call them out Paul's got twenty eight and a half, mum's got No, twenty eight and a half's not bad. thirty five It's not brilliant either. Oh done wrong. You thirty five mum? got forty one. Good god. We've got We're both thirty three and a half I think. Thirty three and a half? I think so, we're still lagging behind We're third Quite interesting though cos it's quite equal really More questions Number fourteen Christmas How many? Uncle, uncle why then you have some on for like Thanks Kev How many? stroppiness. How many? Quite rightly Questions please. What? Fourteen in this one. Fourteen. Ask some good ones Good game. Every time I've asked him to do anything in the last three days, I can't, working out the quiz. Right. Shut up, right, number one Hang on What's the logic of Yeah. This is a mixed bag of Oh Kevin isn't. Number one, name Britain's largest wild mammal Largest wild mammal. or sea No sea is I'll give it to you, oh land on land, we don't want you confused. Britain's largest wild mammal Wild mammal. I haven't got a clue, what do you think about that? I think I know this one. Whisper it. Hang on, er wild I'll come back on this one Scotland, there's a clue there. Could be. Oh I know what it is then. Mm. I think it's a Yeah who that? I don't know if you've heard of them Scotland, is it that, do they have those in Scotland? may as well Word of warning, I'll give you a word of warning, I'll give you an extra mark for an absolute accuracy. There's two words in it aren't there? Yeah Yeah Two marks for that for accuracy Accuracy. Number two, here's one for mum, the dahlia is popular in Britain, from which country did it originate? Mutty might know this one as well. The dahlia, which country did it originate from? Gonna say anything else Eric? Are you implying that it's not very long been in this country? No, been, quite a long dahlia Dahlias were in my dad's days so No, but I mean in terms of hundred of years Oh Oh yes, hundred of years. Yeah. Now then, next one, hurry up Why couldn't you ask about tulips I could've told you about. Come on Bamber Come on Bamber get a move on. Oh here's one for mum, she'll get this one. Lyde is a seaside resort, where? I know that. Oh, oh, oh, oh, Everybody gets them right you Even ages I knew where was Yeah You didn't get the question right though. Why I said dad, she said mum, he said mum will know I, said well he managed mum will go to the, the one of the No, ah, that's why I said it. Alright two if we're Dad wasn't that a bit simple? Number four. Alright, what about this one, what is nix, what is nix? I know. N I X What? She sings with er, in Fleetwood Mac, Stevie Nix What is what? Nix. you're asking for the comprehension of the word. Yeah what does it mean Yeah. when someone says nix? You're nicked No that's N I C K S you're nicks, nicks. I, I thought, I was thinking of You want N I X Question five Oh I got it wrong then if What first then N I X. This is another word for this dictionary is it? It means Number five, which coin ceased to be legal tender in August the first, nineteen sixty nine? Sorry about that over there Oh. Sorry about that over there I know, I know. Yeah. Nineteen sixty nine, August the first, nineteen sixty nine. Sorry what was the question again? Ceased to be legal Which coin ceased to be legal tender in August the first, nineteen sixty nine? Sixty nine. Might of been Probably, probably leave it, leave that No, that was before then. Eighteen. Yeah, probably about right, twenty two years ago. Right, next question That second one Come on I'm gonna hurry you. I'll put that down, cos I don't know. Right oh, number six, who is the goldies crew? Oh I know Who's the goldie crew? Erm Who are the goldie crew? Who are the goldie crew? Is the goldie crew? Who are No, what do they do, I know, First do you have to get it exact? Yes, yeah. Do you have to get it exact? Er, ah. I can be,be We had a quiz like this at work and our captain couldn't Yeah, but I don't know which team that I'm on? Who is and who are can make a difference. Yeah, Dad, what they do or Telling me what they do is, telling me what they do, is telling me what they are. Who is it? The golden crew. I know. The golden crew It wasn't Star Trek was it? Here's number eight. A yellow jersey is the coveted prize, in which sport? Yeah. Oh I know that. Say that again. A yellow jer not the yellow jersey a yellow jersey, see a coveted prize in which sport? Andy will know that What number is that? Number seven is that? That was seven. Yeah, Andy knew that. Oh, yes Easy for us. yes, I know it is dear. Why? Oh yes of course Number eight say which country Oh it's a good one, it is good, the Crucible is a venue for snooker contest, which city is it in? Oh. Mm. The Crucible. Is it? Snooker. What you gonna put? I was gonna put that. Sshh, mm You think it's the better one? I think you're right there Alright. It isn't Eric when I out Eric? I, I, I should be drummed out of the Here's a hard one, hard one coming up. I think that, I'm not sure. Number nine you alright? Yeah. You alright brain boxes? Yeah, they're such brain boxes especially they are they come up with so many answers they never know which one to pick. Right, number nine, which sport world cup was hosted at Willesden in ninety eighty six? Which sport's Oh dear got it's own world cup, and it, this time it was hosted cap Willesden in ninety eighty six? Ninety eighty six, can't be. No. I don't know No, I I'm not sure, but that sounds about right. Yeah. I'll give a clue, lunch, lunch Yes. Lunch That's right isn't it Joy? Oh well I should know both of what I say , well what you say, I should and what I say, it won't That's for mum to know and you to guess. Why should you know? Well we've got to guess why she said that. Alright, mum She's got to rack her brain through er Only the four I ever associate with Right number ten then, number ten Perhaps you're right. If it's that hard I had it before you said that. Alright Did you? That's good, name the two fences which are only jumped once Only question in the Grand National, two fences Ooh Oh yes but they only go over once in the Grand National. It's that really dangerous That's right. any help. Oh dear, I've I want two names I want two names Oh the other one's a water one. There's two names for two Yeah that one separate fences which are only jumped once I can't remember that one. Put that round the wrong way. Right, there's only one, there's only one person who's gonna know this, this question, That's me. little Paul, I think. Little Paul. Number eleven, The Tangerines are the nickname of which football club? Oh yes, think about it. What the proper nickname? No, I want the names No,no, but is it the proper nickname on the Well I think so. Alright, Eric knows. Well yes he might, yes, I could see why he would know, yeah. Why? Yeah I can't, well I'd give it away. Is it a proper nickname? Yes I think it is. Oh you want the nickname? No No Oh. That's the nickname of the Tangerines Will you Yeah Sorry what's It's a nickname of a famous football club That's right, yeah. Oh the won't know that over there. No, maybe not, no. Andy won't know that. Write it down, I'm not sure. Tangerine Paul'll know that. That's the only one I've got It doesn't make any connection with I'll give you a clue, it's to do with their stripe. I know, but It might grow called eagle. Right, number twelve Number twelve. it's an easy one, what must ladies wear in the Royal Enclosure at Royal Ascot? Can we have two answers? It's alright you all know the answer now Thank you Eric. I knew it anyway. Well there's only one in But we did know it Eric. Did you? Yeah. Number thirteen, two more to go. This is a good one as well, which creature may be called That Bubbly Jocks in Scotland? Spell it. Bubbly Jocks The biggest mammal in the world Bubbly Jocks , J O C K S, Bubbly Jocks in Scotland Yeah. Creature? Which creature? Oh. It's called a Bubbly Jock Yeah, yeah. I've got Is it a mammal or what? What was the question or please, sorry. I'll give you a clue, it's a bird Kev. Oh. Which creature may be called a Bubbly Jock in Scotland? May be called. it's a bird. It's a bird. I'll give you a little time for that one. Eagle. Kestrel. Last one why we didn't hear, what was thirteen. Thirteen, with which creature may be called a Bubbly Jock in Scotland? How do spell that Bubbly Jock second word? Cos it's a bird. It's a bird. J O C K S You were right about those two weren't you? Ha You're right about you two, you are good. They shouldn't have. You don't guess do you, they Last question What term describes a group of ducks? A of ducks, a of ducks. Oh it's a funny one isn't it? The something of ducks. No, really strange ducks . No, but I can't think what it is. Not the no No, that's geese. With duck, not geese. No, a of ducks. You said it. Group name of ducks. I don't think it is that, but I don't know. Right, ready for answers? Yeah. I think it begins with Name Britain's largest known mammal? Loch Ness Monster Moose Lock Ness Monster Red Deer Red Deer Red Deer, two marks Hooray we've got it. Deer one mark. Well my moose is a deer It's not moose There aren't any mooses in this country. Canadian I thought a reindeer, but they're That's what I said aren't they? They used to be Right two, the dahlia what country? Japan India India. Japan. Russia. Mexico. Oh Mexico Mexico Nowhere near it. Not a lot of people know that. No, we do now. Everybody knows this one. Right, number three. Isle of Wight. Isle of Wight. You did know Mutty One point you did know. One point, what Is that all? Isle of Wight Yes. I though we would of got three, one for Good try Andrew. What is nix? Nothing. That's how many points you get Nothing. Nothing. Nil Nil, one point for nothing. Two for nothing. Oh two for nothing. Two for nothing. That's the actual word, nothing to hand down for. Where did that come from? Nix, nicta, not is not German isn't it, nix, I don't know. Right, which coin ceased to be legal tender Threepence. Sixpence. Threepence. Fifty P Earlier. That sided hexagon. Half a crown, sixpence. Er, right, what is it? Old half penny. Oh. What is it? Old half penny. No not half penny No you've got half a crown, you cheat. Number six, who got six? Blackpool The Italian yacht The crew often Oh, I'm sorry yes what it's a crew. Definitely one for that, it's the second crew, it's the reserved crew of Cambridge Crew in the box, I second crew oh look I got second crew, second crew You got second crew which is two in No, one mark. Is that all? You can't put both for that one That, it means nobody else Seriously, what was the question? Goldie crew. Goldie crew. I'm sorry that is mean I've got all the words All the words number seven. Precisely. Dad you put You're so mean. The yellow jersey coloured Don't you dare give them two, one. One. it's not the Tour De France anyway Never, they never started Right, which sport's world cup was hosted at Willesden? number eight. How about number eight, come on. Oh yes, so sorry. Oh yes. Sheffield. Bournemouth. Sheffield. Bournemouth. Sheffield. Sheffield. Yes, yes I thought it was Coventry We even had Birmingham at Bournemouth. Right which sport's world cup Swimming Bowls, bowls . tennis Tennis. Tennis. Ice skating. Hockey. Hockey. Cricket. I said hockey. don't you? Just remember next year, you do not put me in for I think you'll win anyway. I had it written down Kev. Er Number ten Right number ten, name the two fences which are only jumped once in the Grand National. Beechers Brook Beechers Brook Beechers Brook the Chair What I got here, the Chair Yes,of the Chair Oh yes. I got, that it's got, had water jump. That's Beechers Brook Beechers Brook It had water jump. The only reason is, the only reason we got that right is that's the only two names of the fences we knew. Yeah. Well we're all, all happy. Right, number twelve, oh no, number eleven. Blackpool Blackpool Blackpool. Tangerine. I, I knew it was I don't think we're gonna get any more points That's gold on this. Right What Everybody ready? Yeah. That's twenty ahead I think Question one name the first English printer. I know, I know Voice down. just done it in a project. Got it? I Do we get two points for both names? christian name Thank you. Christian name and surname. Just done it. Yeah Two points for this I haven't got his christian name Ooh, you haven't got his christian name? Oh dear me. I don't know both names . We can beat the quiz master. In which year did the great fire of London occur? Which year, I want the Oh exact year Are they all history questions? No. Oh no Yes, something that this, this day and date that's in the Right question three. Hold on. No one 'll get the answer to this, but I just wanna ask the question to this. Did you add, did you add one question on the end that I would answer You can't be that dumb. Question three, who discovered Uranus in ninety seventy six? I just wanted to say that question, so, who discovered Uranus in seventeen eighty one? Er Well you need to give us a clue or there's no point asking the question. W, H. William Holden. I dunno. Oh yeah. Question four, I don't think , question four how many sides has the brass threepence, the old brass threepence? Oh dear. Easy How many sides has the old brass threepence? Eight. I don't know in my life. Threepenny bit. I've got one at home Can't remember. I'll give you one mark for er the right answer and two Two for the wrong. two extra, two extra, no one extra, one extra for the exact You are enjoying this aren't you Kevin? What was the Silver Ghost? I know dad I want, I'll give you two marks Hang on. for the accurate. I know Is it that? what that is Eric was it that? Silver Ghost I don't know. It's that. Cos Adrian this is true to Mum Was it that or was it a Yes, yes you're right the answer's obvious but there's a little bit to it as well. Yeah. Someone can experiment You think it's one of those Yeah. You don't know any more? No. That mean get three points if you get that right? No, it's two, you get one for the right answer Eric one more for do you think it was one of those? No, but he might of got it wrong you don't know that. that's right, well love what was the Number six. no you're not supposed to tell people. keep picking up your answers Yeah, it's your It always happens though. Why losing, she only wants to show off. Why was Edward the black prince so called? Why was Edward the black prince Oh I know. so called? I think I know. Could it of been? Could of been, yeah. Thanks Paul, I hadn't seen the How do you tell the age of a horse? Oh that one Oh. Oh I was thinking of a tree Oh I know. How do you, yes your By the br your way Cut it half and count the rings. How do you tell the age of a horse? Question How Easy know that one. There's one for Mutty. What is a Blenheim orange? What is a Blenheim orange? Question nine. What is a coypu? A coypu. Oh I know. A coypu. Do we have to know exactly? Well no What No, no What is a coypu? Yes. How's it spelt dad? C O Y C O Y P U. And no marks for the obvious answer here, question ten, what are the willies? Sshh. What are the willies? Yeah, anybody want another ? up to fourteen and then Number eleven. Number eleven. Name the famous golf club, and golf course at Virginia Water. Er Yes. Name the famous golf club and course at the Virginia Water. Oh dear, oh dear. Oh yeah. Thank you everybody. May I ask one ? Number twelve, what is measured in Ells? E L L S. Why should I know, should I know particularly? You should know. Eh. Is it a volume or, or a Unit I suppose. I think it's a, I think it's a volume, but I don't know what it measures. What is measured in Ells? Do you mean the letter Ls, or No it's E L L S E L L S Not water then, not, not metres? Michael you can give your answer Oh right. Right question thirteen , two more to go let's finish, question thirteen I think about ells , I haven't What was the name given to the tight trousers worn by teddy boys? It's more like Oh. Oh yes, we know that one. Tight trousers worn by teddy boys. Erm, can we write our erm You're trying to catch me You're an old smart you really are. Yeah. Oh that's not fair, you're asking qu , no you ask questions I know from outside the quiz. Last one, easy question. What is a Friesian? Yes. You know, you know. Right, does Michael want to have a number fifteen then? The same . Hang on, say that again. What is a Friesian? Friesian. A Friesian? Yeah, but you can't do that, cos you're in the team. No you. No cos you're Order. She was, she's not with us she said. Go. Go on then. Enlighten us. Enhance us with Yeah. What did Kevin Cosner play, what's his name? Eh? Say that again. What? What character, the character that Kevin Cosner played in Dances With Wolves, haven't got a clue, this is not fair cos you're making us fall further behind if we don't know the answer And then there is B to it, what ? No, that'll have to be number sixteen. Oh I seen the film No alright, we've just Can I just do one more then? I just No. I just want to do, who invented the toilet? That, do I know the answer to that, William Crapper. No it wasn't I know. It was Thomas Crapper. How many was fourteen or fifteen? Alright number one. Right, answers, question one William Capstan. William Capstan. Oh yeah. Yes, Well you know William you can have two points I, I believe you. favouritism. In which year did the great fire of London take place? Seventeen ninety three Sixteen sixty six . Sixteen sixty two. Yeah. Very good. Seventeen ninety three. Very good. The year after the plague Sixteen sixty five was the plague I didn't know the year of the plague Sixteen sixty six was the year of No one answer, no one you Yeah, Wilhelm Ulasey. No William Hurschell. We've put five question marks Ah? We've got five question marks. Number four, how many sides has a brass threepenny bit? Twelve. Eight. Twelve. Twelve. Twelve it is. Twelve. Oh six one side, six the other. Oh. No it isn't, it's twelve all the way round shape All the way round , who's got one? I got that. Who's got one? You got that? Yeah. Adrian what Got a lot more than you think. what was the Silver Ghost? Rolls Royce. Rolls Royce motor car. It's a figurine of the women. Rolls Royce one point And it's the figurine of the women Phantom. Something about the Silver Ghost Dad, it's the Silver Shadow I, it isn't No. Phantom. You've one mark for Rolls Royce you get two, an extra mark for saying Rolls Royce first model. Oh. number six. It was also that figurine of the women Was was based on Really? No you can't have another point. Cos we went to Why was Edward the Black Prince so called? Cos he wore black armour. Cos the black death happened in his reign. He had black armour. Black armour, colour of his armour is black. Oh, very good. You got that one Joy. Very good. A little guess How much we get for that? Michelle knew number seven, I saw I think we're, I think we're falling behind here. Falling behind here. Who's got number eight? Apple Apple, one mark. I remember that. Number nine, what is a coypu? A wolflike animal. Rodent. Rodent, yes, we got that. A rodent, yes You said, we didn't have to be exact. Say that again mum. Animal, that's not good enough Mum , mum I said how exact do we have to be. Point two five. Called again? Michelle I said, you didn't say if that was an animal, I was Ha, a six pack of coypu No, no, don't wash, don't wash. Right, number ten, what are the willies? Islands Depression, depression. Nerves The nerves. We put depression. Well that I've got the willies that's what I think I'll give that. losing . Yes, I'll give that. You know where that comes from you know that women in white, that's written by Willy. Yeah. No, Wilky Collins wrote that. Oh Wilky Collins. Willy Collins It's like you say, someone gives me the willies. That's right, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I thought of that but I didn't think that could be right. Right, number eleven who got the famous gold course Collindale Wentworth. Yes. We did What is it? Erm One mark for that man What is measured in ells? Material Water. Very good. What did she say? Lengths of cloth. Oh lengths of cloth. How did you know that? I heard it somewhere, I, I do it in feet and inches. You know where I have heard it from, it's from work, because er they do, they do lengths and stuff and Really, oh. and I knew I'd Right, who got thirteen then? Drain pipes Drain pipes is Drain pipes, yeah Drain pipes. What? I didn't say that did I? I tell you what I guarantee Karen wouldn't have known the answer to the next one if she hadn't known me. Right. The mind boggles. What is a Friesian? A cow A cow A cow. You can say old Friesian you. Hey, I won. Add them all up. I thought he said Friesian. Karen, I think you out on that. What you get? Eight. Eight. Thirteen. Oh. Oh they're cheating. Eight. No they won, we came last. No we equalled them though. I don't know, probably I get one more. You'd better give the prizes, I'll have the . I vote that And Andy and Karen don't play together any more. Kevin said they'll win. You said that's why they don't need three people in their team. Dad what about the prizes? Right, I don't, I mu , I must say I don't think I would of won without Karen, she got most of them, I was writing them down most of the time. Someone , oh someone's taken the prizes, disappeared, dad. What, someone's eaten them. Karen can't have chocolate Who said I can't? I love Ferrero Roche I thought I'd won after the Kevin I thought, I thought I'd won after the third round so I ate them. Do like Ferrero Roche. Jolly nice if it was on. Turn your light on Michael. I'll put the kettle on. the sandwiches aren't made yet, I don't know why. I'm sure, well done mate. Hang on is this . Anybody want to have a look at Yeah. Yeah. I've forgotten what it looks like. I've got one at home, but I've much nicer. Don't you remember using the Yeah. cos Gosh aren't they tiny What's that? A threepenny bit. That's a threepenny bit I've never seen that You know the first time I came in this country cos it was not decimal yet Oh yeah. Didn't they have character those coins. Yeah, but I can't sides than that. Yeah gran because of the fifty pence piece. Yeah, yeah. Remember those? No, I've never seen Can you, now there's twelve countries in the E E C, can you tell me what they are? That's the the four colours , used to be on the Er Twelve of them, but I can't work out Holland, Belgium ,Luxembourg Er, let's start from the top, there's Holland, Belgium, Luxembourg, Italy, Spain Spain France France Germany Greece Greece. Greece Greece England if Ireland. Ireland. No Ireland is Eire Oh yes, and Twelve Where's the other two, is Denmark in it? Put them down there love Denmark just for a joke. Sweden has applied, but they're not in yet I don't know if Denmark I'm not sure if Denmark Cos Den Didn't they come out, Denmark were going They have their own little grouping and I, how, how do you make twelve, there are twelve in there now Yes, I know there are twelve well who are the other ones then? Twelve what? Twelve countries in the E E C. Oh It's your Can you Can you name the twelve? You see. How about Portugal? Well what about Portugal? Portugal of course. No it's not. Yes it is, well Portugal's in it, Yes. Well it's in the process of Spain. Oh, I know that er, Austria Austria and Sweden Austria and Sweden are I'm surprised Austria wasn't in it anyway. Oh no,photographs . Are we now? Yeah. I think, oh I don't know . Is it getting cold, oh my feet are getting cold. Well these are warm Well that's open that's why. The others were perfectly alright, but they've just worn out, do you like these? Has someone got a ? No. Where, the spare were given to the children . Who wants a Ferrero Roche? Dad, dad. half of mine. Who wants a Ferrero Jacque? Adrian , cos I know you do Ferrero Jacque, Ferrero Jacque, dormez vous . He's got one. I've had, I've had Karen's. Who wants one? I've got one. You've had one? Who hasn't got one? No I don't want one thank you. Who hasn't got one? oh well, ha A hundred and seventy five Cor I I didn't think these were so good in their How many . Yeah, I got about half Well we got other things, we've got to drop the kids off skating Oh I see Yeah. And take the car back. Take the car back to you, cos they're off tomorrow use it tomorrow morning and Sorry? Got to use it for the paint. No I ain't. No he isn't. Oh. It's not insured He was originally , when he was doing the December the second. No. No , it runs out at twelve o'clock tonight. Oh does it? I think, now you say that, it's probably twelve o'clock tomorrow. Well I even say the originally, he was going to come over with Robert stuff Mm. Now Oh yeah I see with this Molly lady. How you getting back This afternoon Er one minute past midnight on the second of December. Oh that's alright, today's the thirty first tomorrow's the first. No, tomorrow's the second Is there a birthday today? No. No , it's the second tomorrow. Second tomorrow. So it just runs out past midnight tonight. on the second it's the, it's the first today isn't it? No, a minute past midnight on the second. They don't have to be that Right, so other words one A M on the second that's right. Well you really want it don't you? Mm. You really want it really and er I'm How you getting back from Joy and tonight? Carole's picking me up. Are they? Carole's picking me up, oh she'll pick me, yeah, but we've got to go to Epsom anyway so we'll go pick up Carole's car and Yes I only opened it, cos I want Angie to come over to help bring the food over, cos we've only got the one little car, Yeah. and if the food and the drink to come over Yeah. well Uncle Adrian Yeah. Do you want, do you want the You're more likely to drop something. Anybody want to see the one with the ? Jill can come over about There, er nineteen Nineteen fifty two, that's the older one. that Pick up the food and drink, it's, it's all be at our house , van stopped to get the drink on and the glass Paul, the coin shop? Yeah. I've got old sixpences here and before nineteen twenty, Ma, ma Saw the content in them Joy, you must ring up Jerry about the Yes, There's one there, nineteen, nineteen, the other one nineteen sixteen. I think the oldest one we've got is something like got us a Roman coin , they . We never recall one thing. I never ever buy but they Oh thank you. I recorded three full tapes and then the head was slurry Ooh. everybody slurry plays Some places it's perfect and other places it's slurry. Have you tried to record ? Yeah. Dad, you've only got one of them. Radio. Mum. Yeah, I, I You rest you've got loads of I have some lovely tunes I have No, it's very complicated but there used to be a no in places it's so slurry, it's almost slowed down mind you, I think Arthur will have plenty done. There's one thing about it, only been a year old the heating is in good condition, you're warm in there. It's only a year old that ? Yes. No, you're this is a new one. Oh it's been out there longer than a year though. No, is it longer than a year? Yeah, mm. Too much exercising. Well it's the same age as Waitrose isn't it?, I would then say yes. Before that. Before that I would say How old do you think it is then? Well it's Well I think a, they, knock, had to knock down the old brown hall Yeah build Waitrose Yeah they must before that they moved them out five or six years. Oh not as much as Joy it's not five or six years old is it? About two or three I think. I would say two, three, yeah, probably three I'll say Mm cos I I saw It's been a year practically hasn't it? Yeah. it's been finished, so it was, I would say I was going to town. Where do you play badminton, upstairs? No, downstairs in the front. we're in the back are we? When you see the all attractive with What do top scoring then Eighty. eighty. Narcissi smell strong Joy? Pardon? The narcissi smells strong. They always do don't they? It must be coming your way, it's not coming here. No I can't smell it. Were you here on the day your Joy? No, I didn't, I said Why'd you We Did you, yeah. There are a lot of I mean that erm,I don't like, what's that called Yes, Yeah. and erm, marigold erm, eh comes from Africa. Oh by the way Adrian my Yeah, yeah, mine's going along quite nicely too and my, I've taken some er cuttings and they're popped up this week Oh yeah. and er that plant you gave me, whatever it's called, is er growing extra leaves Oh yeah. left, right and centre. Wow, you He's training Andrew, Mm. Andrew got some wonderful flowers on here, Well two years ago I did, but I didn't have any last year, two years ago it was a beautiful flower Well last year we moved it out into the gardens. Yeah mind you it's coming again now. Oh, it might be something to do with the . The original It's something to do with the genes I think. Oh, you can find out. Ours have even doubled that ours wasn't it? That was when? A bit straggly in comparison to ours isn't it Eric? Oh dear. Oh that will come on the Look at that one we had Erm, when all the flowers are gone do you feed it? Well you just leave it alone don't you? What? After the flowers are gone, do you leave it? Oh I leave it alone once the flowers are gone, I Put it outside and that's it. put it outside. Couldn't . Yeah, but you can't put it outside . Well in the greenhouse if it's Oh, mm. Yes, I won't touch it after the flowers have gone Cos it , it, it really is a miserable looking flower in the, in the winter I started Did you? Yeah. Again A little er fish, fishes Mm. Do you Tropicals? No No No Goldfishes Oh right How's your funny one? What funny one? The black one? Black one She's alright, I think so. Yeah,. Is she alright? Yeah. The other one keep The other one bullies him a bit The other one bullies him though does he? There's still some though I mean the way he chase round the edge chase round the bowl Not male and female are they? What with What happened to Julie? Oh not until about one o'clock. Oh, the neighbour rang me up and said by the way she'll be a bit late Er, mm, well, definitely a bit later. It's alright, erm, want to sit down yet Paul? Our lock is still no then. Yes. Yes, I'll shall have to go and see at the traffic and find out what's gone wrong. I really need to hang on to the key, is that alright? If I hang on to the key? We'll take it back tonight, if I hang on to that and put it away in the garage and hang on to the key so I can get the right, the right lock this morning, and then the key, the key wouldn't work in the lock. Oh dear. So when, when you going to send The mind boggles. Tuesday Tuesday at one o'clock. what you go in Karen's car? Yeah. It's not worth extending your hours cos you might get one any minute No we can manage with one car, bus or walk Our bus service is pretty good now though The two one three is marvellous yeah, I get, you know, walk to Bognor and then, never have walked back. Karen couldn't believe I got back so quickly the other day. Mm. Dad one of those. Eight or ten minutes is all you usually wait though if you Well I didn't even wait that long. No, came along Erm, when was the last time I caught a bus from you? Paul Friday. He'll be in favour with your dad won't he because I went, I, I I got a, I went, I, I walk down No Thursday the bottom of the road yeah across the road and took my cigarettes out, out my pocket to light up a cigarette and a bus came round the corner so I put it back again. Is it Marks', they Marks'? Yes, to Are those Marks'? No. No. No Tudor Williams Tudor Williams Oh, Marks's have got a whole range of them as well. No, but you can get , you can you can get, you can get to Wickham Avenue, the other end of Wickham Avenue from that . A very nice shopping yeah big one. Yeah I think British I've caught some, where I'd caught a bus to you, if, remember when I was decorating the flat? Walk down Wickham Avenue and catch a bus at the end of the road What bus is it? Four O six is it? Oh is it, the four O six? No, no, it's a red bus. A red bus or I can't remember My one but it stopped outside the baths. Yeah. You can get to us, you can get on at the ba , at the baths and it comes up past Park and you get off, you get off at the end of Wickham Avenue No it's the two nine three How you going to That's it I can tell you . Yes you did Joy. Oh yeah. As many services as possible I mean fancy expecting me to go by tube Two nine three Yeah. It stopped outside erm The two nine three's every half hour. Is it every half hour, as as that? I think so, yeah, Cos I looked at the timetable , I looked at the timetable when I, when I caught it over there, it was on time too. And the ninety three, I'll always remember Yeah. You can catch a ninety three from Alison's to us What rubbish. the ninety three comes to us Yeah, instead of walk right round nearly up to the What's this What Wimbledon station? Yeah, cos the ninety three comes to the bottom of the as well. Does it? Not the ninety three, two ninety three, ninety three finishes No, the ninety three comes to Wickham Avenue as well. I thought it finished at North, er North Cheams. It comes off at North Cheams and goes down Church Hall Road, and up Priory Road, till it the end of Avenue Oh, I see, that end Mm. I'm thinking it going from Yeah, well I used to, I used to when I used to go . Very good. You ever see that They No not his, but another one. Yeah. and held his finger in a for three hours Ooh, held his finger there and surgeons battled to save his life I don't think Baker's been a very good Home Secretary. He's a bit of a flapper isn't he? He flaps a bit, he always He covers it up well, I never been as things wrong He moves too late, I think And then he fires from the hip while Yeah then he fires from the hip and doesn't far too strongly. It was a bit of a Yeah I don't think he's good at the job at all. Well I don't know, I think he's covered up he's not good for a long time, I didn't know he was that bad. What's that? Er, table . who was doing, who was erm Secretary before him? Did you want any help? Nope, we're alright So you tell my that are frightfully posh drive, he comes in backwards oh who's that? It feels colder out there, I don't I felt cold, I feel it's got colder definitely Sorry. Oh. Two little piggies Oh, that's what they used to do when they were young I always made two cakes. Well which one's, well this one's Karen's, the one with the piggy on it Piggy Yeah. You take great delight on that don't you? No. I only did two pigs No Which one's mum? Which one The pink one do you think is mum? the pink one is mummy Oh the the one with the piggy on it. The is that, is that actually It's one of fudge and one of Happy birthday to you one of sponge and one of fruit one. believe that and they all like the fruit one best Yeah. of course and they always wanted to Isn't that nice? Mm. No, no I know he doesn't do them does he? Who made that? Who's the Pink I suppose is Karen isn't it? Yes of course pink is Karen Pig for Karen. Pig for Karen Thank you dad for being so serious What, it's a lovely idea for me. Yeah. I thought it was you I would, I wouldn't call you a pig at all. I thought it was a I think that's the way I pig. Karen if you go and sit on that seat over there then, come on Oh alright Oh no it isn't alright, I've got a bone sit next to Karen and warm up Now you can't always It's a long way to have one I think dad must of You alright, a couple of there? Yes, that's fine for Eric for a while. Change places I quite like sitting on especially to eat. Well I do actually Do you? Seventeen ninety three? That was a wild guess Cor, strewth Seventeen ninety three for the great fire of London. That's when the fire brigade arrived. Yeah, that's when the fire brigade arrived. Paul, I had eighteen something Thank you You didn't? Yes I did Mine was a guess, I didn't know. We just had a, we didn't know did we? No. What's query what's query, query, query, query, query, query. Query queen You didn't know that If you'd ask me to Battle of Hastings, I'd know that one You alright? it's the only date I did remember from school Do you know it twenty to six we played that for about two hours was it? Time goes doesn't it? Thank you What was the question for number seven? He's got down wearing on his what's that? I think Brian Adams is Everything I Do isn't it? Oh I see. Er, mum what are you doing? That'll be a good game trace, guess the questions from the, from the answers. Not much questions. Number nine a gun, what the hell's nine? I don't know, I didn't hear the erm correct Kev What? you're right about that as well, not much used at all . Mum where do I, where's sitting? She's reading Kev so you can say anything you like now. No you can't she's listening now. Anybody that hasn't got a plate take it. Yeah. Sorry. Are we What was number one? Yes. Paul. I thought you do this You know what he had for nix? Knickers Knickers. Oh I see Eric, Eric What? I thought you do this done it. I've done it Oh. Sometimes I don't do things Horn don't it? No, blackberries. What do you have horns for? Yeah What's What dear? Yeah, er, I sa , thought Eric would knock some here, but no, I mean I mean what's Bournemouth colours? Dunno. What's Bournemouth colours Paulie? red and white stripe It's red and black Red and black. What do mean,wha ,wha what's Bournemouth? You had Bournemouth. That's what I put the I thought the Oh. clue was in Bournemouth. Sheffield That one. We had Sheffield do you have tea? I knew he'd have was wearing tangerine. Never put What's the difference between gold and tangerine? Go on Mind you, I think, it's a bit unfair on Paul here cos Where, they wanted I know, I know now, the minute he said that. Oh isn't it terrible? Oh isn't it terrible that? Oh. Wasn't it awful? A little tiny it was. until she wouldn't lose, do what they exactly Yeah, she had all the money He said my father can have it, he can do, have it, I only want money for my charity, and of course then there was You can't keep your eye on every single player in the league. Taking on You've got your eye on the goalie Yeah I know. Cos the scorer alright, erm, have defended themselves But he couldn't make it more horrible Mum, Mind you we shouldn't Mum Who's sandwich out here, there's you , That's our biggest mistake Nan just when are you Andy, Michelle, Michael, Paul, Ruth and Kevin Who's that new player we've got our eye on? Kevin, third division I'll do him. That's er beef and tomato and turkey and cranberry Oh. Yeah, that's it Penny for them penny for them. Oh you Yeah I got one Beef and tomato, turkey and cranberry, Turkey and cranberry oh or and cress I haven't got turkey and cranberry Oh isn't it? Who'd like turkey and cranberry? It's bubble drops and cranberry. Bubble drops and cranberry? Yeah. What the bleeding bubble drops? I don't like you any more, they're all English Kevin, Kevin questions. I'll believe Kevin questions. Ah, thank you. Paul was Bubble drops eh? Bubble drop. Don't you talk to me like that. Arsenal are too strong for Tottenham. Yeah. Er Two nil. Two nil. Ian Wright again, oh. I've got to go and fresh bubble drop. No, that's my Thank you. Everybody will laugh. Karen can't do the catering if one chance in ninety minutes. Causing the Yeah in Sainsbury's Oh dear. A woman of previous good character Ruth always makes lovely sandwiches. So you say. Kevin buttered the bread I hoped to I hope you give all the crusts to the hungry ducks? No. Should do They always look neat and perform mine don't I in the garden and Kevin told me off Oh well would love I would get here Paul , Paul Erm Can you get it in the bag? Well, it's Sunday, but it's not until next week is it? They were so hungry the dogs. Those rotten dogs. Ruth. The gulls came do come down and pinch it in front of them. Was it? Well the So hungry they are. That would be alright till next week, if you put it in the fridge. The radio was But you can't stop The only thing you can do is to quiet him down, to frighten him off. Mm. Well that's a fat lot of good if you I expect you'll find And it was two remote controls, one for the video and one for the television, Mm. have perfect eventually Oh I like that new Amstrad double decker. I don't What's that? too bad What that . That's right. Hey where was the tea for dad? I drank mine away from the . I'm always so thirsty. I think they're making so many If I didn't know Karen I should think I was the candidate for diabetes. Is worth hiring not buying at all. The first one we had, I Because you could Not much milk Karen. Not much milk for Not much milk Thank you. The of art was Sugar? No, no thank you. What that turkey in? They're all underneath Thank you. What's in that one that Cranberry. No it's not cranberry. It tastes like The other thing is with the, the Is it cranberry with? What, what's in place with the cranberry, something you're using. Ah, eh, no I didn't, I said it's not turkey Oh. I said it's pork. Right, pork. It's apparently an actually. What is the sauce on it? It's cranberry and orange and claret actually. Oh. I think, we bought three bottles of cranberry sauce didn't we? From Yes, I thought it was sweeter than ordinary cranberry. Mm, nice Mm. Somebody collecting horse brasses? What you do, I mean talk about They look quite nice on there though. Yeah. They take a lot of cleaning though. No, they never get cleaned. Don't they? Nor will they ever. They're old brassy. Antique finish they've got. Have a cup of tea yet? Oh Kevin I haven't had mine yet. it won't go to your lips unless you put your hand inside there, that's it, that's it, stir round, right, open your mouth, time it right. Mum and dad get You didn't tell me it was there. Well you got eyes, you got No, how do I know whether it might be Paul's. Normally you Did you eat your No. Oh lovely. Why is it that a cup of tea goes down so well? Were all that Can I go and myself Oh the little ones like you haven't got the Do you drink tea ? I didn't know you drank tea. Blimey that's the first picture I've had there isn't it? Yeah, which one did you have? I like them all, I like the, especially like the erm Joy,has a recipe never liked before Oh. then she realized how good, these two. That's right, potatoes And she, she wait, she made out she'd driven on a road Michael do you want ? in the States, I think she's Adrian is very much wider scope of food now,before, far more wary weren't you? Mm. Can't change Kevin though, I'm all sweets things and savoury I like I think when you realize how much you've missed something Ah out, to say, I'm sorry I can't feed that to, someone else is out what's put in front of him, so that's why now he eats fish fingers and now he eats pizza. Who's this Paul? Paul , yeah, yeah. How did you, did you start him on pizzas? Wow Even quite likes them . Well he went to someone's house and all the eats them so he ate it. Must of brought him up well. My brother was like that once, he, he used to hate he used to hate he used to hate peas thank you, and once he got invited to a friend of his and there was peas, and he put just of four peas on his plate and said and he this plate of peas Now, peas are harmless aren't they, they haven't got taste. A lot of people don't like them though. Has,for me he has a strong dislike for When you I had some money What you done that for? I don't know whether you could, you could Bet you could use that as a cooking I cook in this. Mm. Yes, pretty solid. Cook toffee in it, the idea is a toffee tray. Oh to cook toffee oh alright . You'll be able to cook toffee now. That's why I came second in the quiz No, I wanted to cook Would of won it if I'd been on Didn't bring me one, no honestly Mum honestly you didn't who is it? It sounds like Basil Fawlty No really I'm waiting for it That's for watching too much You one yourself I see, I thought I delivered you two cups and you've only had one, right, O K You find it Paul? How do you You want one plenty more In that case no thank you. I'm quite , is this being recorded? Yeah I'm quite thank you. Who can come out with the longest words in a minute I wish I have he'd say one or two nice Oh yes he would nice word. We got a little one everything haven't we, everything in the English language. if you ask me. Don't know . Erm, I've just discovered from the I think it's something No, we had that question the other day didn't we? Oh it's the the miners' disease,something, something disease of miners whatever. Economosis Yeah, something like that but it's longer, the whole full name's about thirty five letters. What Sorry I know the er name of that Thirty years ago. I got, you got train Sixty one or sixty three is, a little while ago. Mm Hang on I think it is about, coming up thirty years now. Was it back in ninety sixty three? Sixty one or sixty three didn't For an hour what, seven There's your third cup of tea. No it wasn't. And can I have second cup of tea? I probably will have a, I will have, probably will have a third. I no you ain't Dad can I have a third tea? A third Third What number's that? Go on Colin. Why's he getting so thirsty? Cos there's all this You leave my little alone. You have to Why I'm You worried about it you see it. Yeah You're joking why should I sit between them?coming over the edge of the stool, one saying are you safe on that stool? now they're asking me to go and sit down between them, Hey no thank you very much Karen could move up that way Oh, there's room enough for him Alright Karen, I'll go and sit on the toilet Thank you compliment. I'll take that as a compliment. What did she say then? sit on the toilet, she said I might fall in, I said I'd take that as a compliment after You know, he said just for the eh, erm, friendly he had when he was in the, in the Air Force, he was flying in and one of the properties in America was the big fat ladies they'd pull the chain sitting on the loo and those loos there and it was God and the only way said put your finger there Oh yeah. Great vacuum Oh how embarrassing. want to do that. On the front, I went to today and on the front page of the Sunday Sports, was it the Sunday Sport? There was this picture, I don't know whether it was a man or a woman taken from the You bought the Sunday Sport? No, You've looked at it, you bought the other one and read the Sunday Sport there was this picture of this, I don't know if it was a man or a woman naked in a cubical and it filled, well he or she filled the cubical and you couldn't see where the, the bottom began to Something like the five stone. Yeah, Adrian did a modelling job a couple of weeks ago. What for? What's you so rude about you for. I won't go in the loo and sit cos I'd still be able to hear what you're saying. Thank you love. Picture is so gross on the front page as well toffee Paul, don't show your ignorance. having a toffee for? That's the way to break it. Oh that's the way you break it I've got a toffee apple I haven't tried yet, but I don't think so, no ha, the only thing I've got was a Gone a bit quiet over there Don't you break my chair Here are I'll tell you how much it cost if you Is it as dear as that? Yeah. It cost a hundred and sixty five quid Cor blimey Yeah Did it? We've got those at work and they're like Was it new? New Ruth? Quite new, quite new Was it? A hundred and sixty five, is it worth it? They've got them at work like that and they were about nearly three hundred pounds new Kevin, why did he give Michelle those glasses, I didn't wash them properly, is that the first time Yeah Yeah , yeah. I think it might only talking at the same time I know, I know My name's years old alright? This tape has to go, this tape has to go back. How do they know what's on the tape? Does anybody want any fruit bread or fruit cake? I'll try a piece Cut up our cake and then Karen can take her Are you ready? This is difficult. Is it all play? Yeah. It's action. It's an action. Smoothing. Washing. Cleaning? Bathing. Shrinking. Eye glasses. Nurses Shrinking morning. Erm Sweating, smelling, washing. Cleaning. Oozing. Erm Blowing your nose. Erm nasal man Erm hair Shaving. Erm spots? Scraping Erm Oh dear. Walking er an old man with a walking stick. bath bath hip bath. Getting dirty peeing Elderly man elderly erm Ageing. Ageing O.A.P. Sweating. erm retired person. Getting older. Er getting older. Wrinkling, geriatric-ing. Oh dear. Parents Three ages of man. Seven ages of man. Degenerate? No? Old age. Erm Thatcher. No! Come on! Don't say the word! Pubescent Pubic. Pubic. Maturing. Yeah Yeah that's right, maturing Maturing, yeah being rude. he was drawing big willies and little willies. Well how are you supposed to draw the difference? I thought straight away. I mean you can't draw One two three four five cracking up. You're only one behind us now. getting older. Dear oh dear. What's that one? Is it all play? No. I'm going now. You're going now. Where have we got to? no just me. Just you? Green one. Yeah. Ready? Can I have a look ? Can I have a look? green. Green. Yeah it looks difficult but You don't have to do it though. Yeah but we know it's difficult but Er title, book title. Is it more than one? Open book. I know what . Mhm. Er pages front pages Mm. er Mhm. Frontispiece. er We know what the word is. Mm mm are we? Front page? Yes. Index? Yeah you just said it. Front page? What front page? Oh. Oh I didn't Mum you missed one! Did you deliberately miss that one? No. Front page. I know but you had something in front of it so I moved it back. Oh no that means I know what it is now doesn't it? No. What do you mean? There was a green one, here. You missed it. I had already taken this out. It was in there. Yes but this is where we're taking them from and we're putting them in here. Oh. What was this one ? You to draw. Alright. Is it me drawing? Well it's Is it an all play? Is it an all play? P, what's P? No it's not got an arrow. Ah! So you're just the two . do this one. can we see what it is? Kevin? Oh right. see it. I can see it. Yeah I had. What colour? Oh we've had this one before. Are you ready? Yep. Butterfly crocodile alligator. Yes! Well that's handy. That was easy peasy. Well we're catching up a bit. Two, one two. My turn to draw. Actions. Where do I take one? You don't. You put that one back. It's me that takes. Is it all play? No. This is where you're lucky when you get starting this is when you're lucky when you get two or three playing on your own without all play. What is it? Plains It's a brown one. What is it? What colour? Brown. Oh she's off again, look. What colour? Oh brown. Vase er er base erm whirlwind. I know what I'd draw. Definitely know what Base of a fire Oh mum that is a awful drawing. Simplicity . Er root of the fire, base of the fire. Simplicity. Just do what you always do it too . on with it Paul. Vase bottle What is she doing? Come on mum, think! Shh. Cigar tin opener What? What electric iron then goes on to erm she's ironing What is she doing! she's ironing this frantic frenzy again. Erm Yes that's it! Er burnt, scorched! Thank you. I would have drawn us, drawn us a toaster and some toast really. Did you get it right? Why did you get it right? She had erm Careful you don't go back on that Paul. What've I got to do? What colour? D. Green. Is it an all play? It's got, yeah arrow D. Black arrow? Who do I show it to? What is it? What, what is it? Here you are. I'll show it to dad first then. I don't know what it is. What colour? D. I'm blue. It's got an arrow on it. Who's who's drawing over here? I need it back again cos I've forgotten what it is. It's green. It's not blue. it's a green one anyway, and you can You said blue! Oh what You told me blue. She said blue. I thought it was blue. That's what it's got What colour is it? Green Er er colourblind! Green, sorry. green Green, er no no we can have that one. Cabbage. Go on then. Green where's my pen? it's here, sorry. never even saw It's here anyway. Is it green or blue ? Green. Then it's an all play! It's this one! This green. Look! Why do you keep changing them? Paul, we don't. You're sticking them back into a Shhhh. Go! Oh she's picking wrong colours Erm are are you drawing for us? No he's only on his own. We're not playing draw. Oh. Oh. said we were playing P. I know! I mean that's what It's a difficult one. Speaking It's very difficult. two words hot air There's only one word He says it's two words. Yeah but he's wrong. I thought it was It's a hyphen is it? It's a hyphenated word. Loud- mouth One word. I can see it's, I dunno It's one word. Speech mark. Sick. Of you. Er I think Ruth says anything in the hope that it's somewhere near right. Stomach upset . Oh blimey I don't know what to do. Stomach upset . You can't blame me for that. What would you draw for this? I wouldn't know. It's quite hard. I think What would you draw? Nausea indigestion. No you couldn't tell You're not allowed hand signs. Hot air. Puke. Oh! Come on! Have you seen what he's drawn? That's quite good! Hot air. Stomach contents. I tried I just don't know what to do what to do with that one. Finished . It's comedy. Comedy ha ha ha ha . Comedy . What? Comedy. Ha ha. Why did you say it was two words? Ha ha. Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha Oh well yes I should have done one word. Yeah I was trying to do ha ha . You didn't write ha ha. No I didn't, I didn't. I know you're not allowed to do that. What has this got to do with comedy? Ha ha ha ha ha ha Alright roll the dice don't we? How did you do the ha ha then? No I couldn't do that. It was too hard. No you don't roll the dice. Oh no. You pick a card. it's me isn't it? Is this the right side? So action. Is it all play? Is it all play? Is it all play? No it's me only. It's lucky when you get What colour is it? It's all play is it? No. What colour is it? It's, it's brown. Brown. marks, get set, let's have a look. Ooh, it's difficult. Oh I know what I could do for that. Oh crumbs. First aid, St John's cross, red cross, red green cross code Ambulance accidents on there. ambulance patients What have you got for that? Rushed to hospital erm emergency? emergency units injured intensive care What ? er emergency, rescue doctor, stethoscope er rescue? specialist, surgeon It's an action. Not a thing. Rushed to hospital heartbeat go to hospital Mhm. erm travel to hospital, erm airlift to hospital No that's not it . drive to hospital rushed to hospital transported to hospital transported? It's a frog. Three legged frog. Wait for hos what? Oh it's gone, it's gone. What on earth . the right word Yeah. Can you see it then? Run out. Not yet. Now it has. Visit. Visit. Oh that wasn't bad. It was visiting the doctor. It was a visit. Doctor's visit, yeah. Oh well I got the idea And there's his visitors but I mean it was Some words are so abstract aren't they? Yeah. Oh it's terrible. somebody carrying a and going in a house. How would you draw a visit? I would have done two doors I think, someone knocking on a door and but I don't think anyone would have got it. No. No. No I don't think so. Your turn. Are you drawing Eric? Yep. Exhausting, this game isn't it? You're on a A P play. Oh play again! Oh my god. Am I drawing to you? Yeah. About time you did All play. you were so rude about mine. What colour? What colour? Red. Red. Give it to Andrew. Mum. Uncle An , Uncle Andrew needs to look at it . Alright. Right. Now you turn it over. Newt. Loop. She got it. Oh. How did you get that so ? tadpole. That's what I drew. No that's a circle. That's I think it's the start of a scribble, that is. No it's the way you draw it. That's the sign of the fish. It's the way you draw it. Well I think that's a good Who's mum? It's your turn again. Do you have to roll the dice mum? That was a quickie . It's your turn again. drawing. Paul's drawing. Oh it's an all play again. All play again . Is it all play? We've got to catch up. We're last. Has anyone seen the words? Who's drawing? I am. drawing. Joy is. That's quite hard. Is it er all play? Yes. It's quite hard. Is it the which colour? Red is it? Red Ruth? Red. Yellow red. Are you ready? Yeah. It's quite hard isn't it? Ready go! Erm er A man one word. Another single word. Cigar, iron, bus vase, taxi erm car money, earning money money Here she goes again. She's off. Frantic money . Hey what are you doing there? Circulation of money. Smart money. Erm Spending money. Erm Spinning money Taxi fare. Erm Tumbling coins. Earning money. Expenditure. Collection. Making money. Sounds like Credit Sounds like Profits. profits. Er triangles. Interest rates erm Scoop. Pocket, sounds like pocket. Sounds like Wealth. Money bags. Money bags. Wealth. Ingots. Rich. Ingots. He got him, he got him . got it? What was it? Rich. Sounds like ditch. Oh blimey. I drew a I was drawing a plane. I'd have done I'd have done a quick, a little man carrying a bag with dollars Yeah that's what I did. I did a man with dollars You're not allowed to do symbols Oh yeah. You're not allowed to do symbols. any symbols. That's not symbols. It is isn't it? What is it? You're not allowed the hatch symbol that's all. What's the hatch symbol? Hatch symbol's the Dollar. sketches may not include reference numbers or the hatch symbol . Oh. I thought you weren't allowed Because that means number in America doesn't it? I drew a rolls royce and not a plane . sounds like your little man titch. I mean that's You're not allowed to do numbers . the letter though. that you would be allowed to do notes drawing a note and use it. I thought if I just had a man who had a yacht and he had a rolls royce and a yacht . Wouldn't you? Well I don't think that's much like a rolls royce. Oh my god. And this is a yacht is it? yacht and a plane. it's a red one. Is it hard? I don't know what that one means. Pass it on. Pick another one. Pick another one. Is it all play? I think this one, I think I know what it is. All play. Red. For you, yes. you're drawing yeah? Yeah. Red? Red. Red. Bottom. Mm she didn't end up with the word You're not supposed to look at it are you? I didn't see it. Well what are you reading it for? What's it mean? What is it? I didn't see it. If y if she gets it straight away we know. I didn't see it! No she can't see it. She couldn't see it from there. Why would I lie? Right. Go. How many words mm How many words? One. Box. Man. Two boxes. Man goes Crown, king king. Aerosol . Telephone. Aerosol. Party hats erm Erm Balloon pump. different words Disco dancing. Er what's that? Aerosol. Royalty. Gas canister. I know I know I know. Sovereign. Gas canister. Balloon. Chef's hat. Hot air. Gas Letter? Tube. Disco dancing. Cinema. Walking the dog. Light bulb. draw. Light, dark. No light. Switched off. Off switch. Come on. What's this? On it's head. there's this bulb. Hat. Er Dead canister. something else, something else. Full of er Wear. Fused. Lights out. Out. Defused. Fused. Out. Say something mate Gone. Vamoosed. Dead. Empty gas canister. Dead. Nought. Disco dancing. Erm obsoleting Obsolete Dancing on Dud Dancing on a stage. Acting. Religious is it? Oh dud. No, erm We're done. No, we've done it. It's gone. Oh it's gone. Very good. What was it then?sounds like suds. Yeah, should have done a sounds like as well. red. Are we red. Yes. No you're green. Oh yes knows. dear oh dear . This is really easy. This is really easy. Auntie Michelle is it all play? Yes. If it was a dunce, you would have done that. This is really easy. me to draw. Really easy, so we'll get do I, quickly really quickly to get down to it. Ooh I like quick ones. Okay? Ready, go. Yeah. Go. Bed, no cushion. Candle erm Church, steeple Flame. Steeple. Got it got it got it got it. Look at that little church. Oh erm right, we've got to get a high. Oh I'm sweating. Oh we've done that one, perspire. sweating, perspire. Just by myself. If you Who's blue?just got one up there. They have. They're scorching Right. This is a quick one. We've got there in the lead. Well just think about it. Think about it. is it? They're doing a brown one. It's action. On their own? action. Don't listen to action. Go. One word. a line, two lines, three lines, a text. Waves. Sea. Erm Oh Paul! Scales. Oh I don't know. That's alright. That's what I would have done. That's not what I would have done. Erm lift erm yeah but yeah you'd have done Action, raising, going up. Building. Rising. Rising. Brick, brick laying, erm steps Construction? going up some steps. Making steps. Erm Building? I think you should have done it the other way. Going up the other way. Money. Perhaps think of it as an action then. Start at the bottom and go up the top. Going up. Erm Climbing. Climbing. Er Rising, growing mushrooming. Plates on the sink is that? On the table? Yes a table. I don't know what that is. Preparing. Preparing, making. Ooh! He's gone and knocked the sand out Erm dishes erm. Washing up. Washing up. Drying up. Finished It's a pile. What would you have drawn? We would have done that, you know like a pile of Your turn Eric peat. and it's all play, and it's your turn. Pile like in Steaming pile yeah. It's all, it's me again. All play. All play. There's supposed to be a er er seen it. have to be him. How do you see it then? I never I've seen the word now. No showing it to me. Who's who's who's drawing? Don't keep showing it to me. Red. Where's the red? God this looks, is gonna be hard. Okay. Red? Well how many words? One word. How many words? Bed er bed-settee, car, car wheels Car, travelling. Hub caps. Caravan. Speed. Move speed. Burning rubber. Meandering. Smoke, oh exhaust. Winding. Exhaust pipe Fumes. Fumes. Er gas Smoke. Carbon monoxide. Carbon He's got it. Smog. No you didn't say smog. Yes I did. You said carbon monoxide. smoke. You said smoke didn't you? No she said car smog. You said smog. I said smoke. What was it? She said carbon monoxide. It was smog. Smog. I said,said smoke, I said smog, somebody else said carbon monoxide. He said smog. Yeah I think I heard him say smog. car was the smoke, smoke from the exhaust and he sa I said smoke carbon monoxide smog What would you do for smog? I was just going fumes, smoke, smog, smoulder car on the road and all that. No I think he, he he did smog. Yeah, smog. I thought someone said carbon monoxide. No she said carbon monoxide. I did. I said carbon monoxide. What were you calling out for? Cos I was getting yours! Oh yeah sorry. You were playing yeah. Yeah you can play with me. Aren't you my partners. one two three four five . miles behind mum. Action. Look where they are! Yeah. Half way through. Alright. Has it got a black arrow? No, no. Is it hard? How many words? Okay, now. One word. One word. Erm what colour was it? Brown. Have they seen it? Yeah. Ooh there's a delicate little drawing going on here. It's an action Oh Andrew's always very slow but at the end of it bending his head. Long neck, peer, peer over, nosy parker Fishing. Er flag. Linesman. Er British. patriot, er British patriot. Warrior. Er Dead, soldier. Erm These are the only glasses I can play in. I've got other glasses but I Killing, soldier supporter Warrior Cheering. a bit inbetween. ever so old and I lost the thing They are old A supporter! Can you get those repaired then? Japanese. War, war countries The third world war. Erm And they're scratched. But I can't Going into war. Erm. Invasion. coffin. Coff-, coffee? I thought if in doubt Dead soldiers erm Remembrance. Remembrance day. It was action. Yes I know but I mean er Move, er travel Dead Finished . Defeat. That was hard. How would you do that? Very difficult one. white flat. Somehow. Eric. It's an all play. Oh no, Joy. Pass it on. How do you do a white flag unless you We've got to get off this all play mum. It's holding us back. Is it all play? Is it all play? It's amaz amazing how often people resort to matchstick men What, what what is it? Oh it's just all play. Well it's the thing you can draw the quickest isn't it? It's all play. Come on hurry up, I'm ready. Turn it over. How many words? Pop hasn't seen it has he? Yes he has. Quick. Okay? Quick. Now. Go. Go. Fat, obese. A big Cull erm Insect. Yes. Oh! Insects. Back! Get back! What did you draw for that Ruth? She's quite good. Six legs is six legs. Very well done. You know what's holding us back? That all play. Cos they all have a go. You don't all have a go on this one. We do when we're stuck on a Can we have one of these? You do get stuck on a regular, then your chances What is it? What is it? What number? It's a green one. Ready steady go. Oh I shall never get that. Two words. Green one. Impossible. Erm I'd love to see Oh she won't get this. Television er Oh she's not! She is, she is She's zapping the zapping the television. Very good idea. Sounds like Yes it is good. That's a very good idea. Revolution. Er clock face, clock clock, sounds like clock. Clock Mum! Clock, timer. Mm. Oh come on mum! The other word. What's the point? Alright. Clock. The other word. Surely. I can't draw that . Shows you how much we rely on She's off again . Frenzy again. Er show you how much you do. Mum! don't you point at me. Er erm No, no pointing. And if you don't speak someone's language Right. that's the difference between Twenty five. That's cool. er er er clock tow tow , clock If you don't have the football what else can I have? Said sounds like clock. Oh sounds like clock. I'm going clock clock clock. Stop . Stockmarket. You should have got that one. I'd have drawn a market. Oh dear. Every day you come home stockmarket Oh yeah. That was quite good. I would have drawn a market. Yeah I would have gone up and down with graphs. Well I should have done the financial No yours all go down. Oh yeah alright . I should have done the Financial Times. go right down . Well who's go is it now? Do you know the share he bought for ten p each last week went down to three and a half pence each. Would you believe it? Shhh. Er it's their go. Action. Strong smell of burnt fingers going on. Oh it's a it's a long one. Oh, is it hard? How many words? Write it out. Your turn. Did you buy any BT Kev? Mm? BT did you buy? Who's drawing? You or Eric? Eric. Well I sent the money off. Remember to put how many words. Only if it's What is it? What colour? Brown. It's an action. That's us as well. Brown. Another one we can do is long and short words. Oh, ready? Right. One word. Short word . come on. up. Er book . One point. Er what is that? What is that? Yes. Got it. No no she had it first. she said No way. Yeah I heard before. Tiebreaker. Do it again. Do it again. Do it again. You should shout louder. Have another go. Have another go. she's got it. Least she got it though. Well we could play the tape back. We can see who got it first Yes. Yes. Brilliant idea. Brilliant idea. You won't hear Ruth. but I think they got it first. Have a tiebreaker, another go er er Alright. Do another brown then. Do a tiebreaker. Whatever the brown one is on this Well let let her have a look. Let her have a look. whatever the brown one is you do it. You look. Oh we'll call. Right. Eric you look. Yeah. Oh it's another one. Is it? Yeah. Another all play? Yeah. No no no I'm not in. just the two of you Oh I don't get a chance. tiebreak. Poor old This is a tiebreaker. It's a good one now. Right, now. Right . Ready go. Tap. Hangman's noose. Oh crikey. Hangman. Noose. Falling. Drop. Falling. Shower. Yes yes What did you draw for that? Oh yeah it's a shower. A shower. Wasn't a shower! What ? Looks like a hangman's scaffold. A shower! That's a bath! What? Let's have a look. That's a shower! That's not a shower. That's a shower. That's a nice bendy shower. It shows you what it is. And a person standing underneath it. It's my turn to draw. That was rise. They drew a chair and it tips forward you know and helps you up. Those chairs that bend forward. What is it we've got to do now? No paper. We've run out of paper. We've got to get off that all play otherwise Oh yes. I mean what is it? Everybody's in again? Is it? Right. Er I don't know yet. You've got to look cos I can't What what am I on? It's a brown. Brown. Action. It's not an all play. Oh. Oh. and we're on all play all the time. We can't get off it. Go. Hang on mum I'm not ready. Wait. You see you all have a go. We don't have a second turn. Give it back to me. You've got five seconds. Go. Go. It's of being on red. Not if you're winning you don't get five seconds. One word. One small word. One big word. word. Alright so we get . It's not difficult. Door. Action. Two doors. Action. Going through the door. Going from door to door. Entering. Yeah that's that's alright. Entering's alright. Entering. Yes that's it. Yes he got it. He got it. He got it. Entering. Enter. What should it have been? Entering. Enter. Entering's alright. Got a smart guessing team over there. Actually for a second there I forgot it. I was gonna do ex I was gonna try and put some exits. Mind you, they've got two guessing. That's good. Well done Annie. Your drawing's Er it's Andrew now. Four. One two three four Yes, oh we're thrashing them. Oh no. We're being walloped. Oh we're nearly there! Murdering them. Perhaps we'll catch up. We caught up when We're getting walloped. Right. This is an all play. Oh good. Yeah you can get back in here . I hardly ever have a go. I'm very unlucky. I doubt it. It's an object. Oh well you never know. Go on Joy. Object. I don't know where to start. Wherever there's Hang on. Wait a minute. off this red one mum. Object. That's the one at the bottom. Erm Red . That's it. Right. I'm glad you got it that quickly it's a That's red. Isn't it? No it's blue. No. It's blue. Oh sorry. Wait a minute. Blue. Sorry. My fault. Blue. Blue blue blue blue blue. Did you, you your with this? Blue? Go. Boxes. Pawn. A steeple. Boxer. Steeple. Target. Light. Hat. Radiation. Radar. A lighthouse. Radar. Radar. Information. Satellites. Telephone. It's a mobile telephone. Oh yeah. Mobile telephone. Er two Radio erm audio erm Er which one is that? Bigger bigger fish. Fishes. Erm er Division Two words. Walkie talkie. Well done Eric. What did she draw? Yes it's a walkie talkie. Oh that's a good one. I think mine was . You got that from You got walkie talkie out of that? quite good. You see I was doing I don't yes it's got the earphones and That's not a walkie talkie that's a walkie talkie. Let's see. Yeah, it's not bad. Yeah. What's I can't even see, hang on You got walkie talkie from a Sony Walkman there. what they're talking about. Anyway they get a go now . There's fifty years of empathy Surely they won so they ? No. . They have, they have to have their go. What? move that. They have to go. They can't move. Now if they win this one Yes that's right. on their own one then they get a well done. but we can't get off of there unless we We can't get off it. You can if you win this. If you win this Yeah If it's on it's own. That's, you have to keep You're on your own now though. Well how, what advantage was it to him to win that then? Well I You see he's so unlucky that his is on all play. Hang on Right. There you are. Well lets just test that out because I'm I'm suffering enough. I've been suffering Ever since the game started you You're suffering, she's wet! This time we'll do it. Next time he can move if he wins it. After that, afterwards. Yeah but every time we have an all play. Whatever happens. Yes I that that does seem a bit odd. Okay next time we'll move. All all play. Yeah read all play for goodness sake. In the all play category the word card is shown to the picturist of each team. The all play word is sketched simultaneously by picturists in their respective teams at the start Regardless of who's all play it was, the first team to identify the word earns control of the die and immediately rolls and advances the number of squares indicated. The team now continues in turn with a new word. If no team identifies the word in the time allotted the die is passed to the left. Yeah. However the team does not roll the die but begins its turn by pulling a new card and sketching the word corresponding What does that mean? So why is there no advantage to them to have guessed walkie talkie? I mean I've won the game. I mu an all play. advantage because it's all play. You could have been the next player If he was We'll never get off all play then? all of theirs er Yes you will. It's you've got to be first to find it. Yes! You've got there's your disadvantage. Yes. It's just bad luck that you happen to be stuck on . Just bad luck. You're right. It's not We've since the game begun. All play. What is it does it say? All play. No. Next time you next time they can roll the dice if they get it. She's going to give it to Joy. All play. What is it? All play. What is it? What an action or Who's who's go? Who who's drawing for you? Michelle. Yeah. It's reds yeah, but it hard? How many words? Remember short words or long words. Ready go. How many words? Words. it seems to me we have to win two to get off. Collar. Neck. Tie. Oh she's got Brooch. Collar. Necktie. Er bow tie. Cravat. Collar. Bow tie. Bow tie. Scarf. Clothes. T shirt. Erm Jacket. Long necked. Long necked. Er er er Short necked. Rolo neck. Er collar. Polo neck. Yeah. Polo neck. I'm drawing a polo horse and you're going look I've done the collar, polo. I was trying to remember the name of that collar. I said oh what's it called. I don't throw the dice do I? Well why not say polo? Right so we're on there We'll never, we'll never get off. We've got to get twice to get off. We've got to win twice to get off Yes. You've got to you've got to win twice to get off. I think Never get on a red. No. Everybody does this one. If you get stuck on a red you've had it. It's a bugger of a square to get on, that one. What are we on? Brown? It's a terrible square to get on mum. I think the rule should be you should move on soon as you win one, I think. Oh that's easy. Do you wanna take a card out? I don't think that's quite right This is a quick one. A quick one. I'm sure you're supposed to go two Well Paul that's not fair. If mother hasn't even seen it. I know. I know. to say, it's a quick one. I can't think brown because you're on all play you're stuck there forever. Right. What's what's that behind over there? That that over there? This, that bit there. Well don't look. Don't look. Red now. Ready steady go. What's that? One word. Erm volcano Vesuvius Volcano. Eruption. Yes. Lava . What was it? Erupt. I don't think they should be allowed that. What? Why? It was erupt. And as you are winning by so much I think we should Oh no no no eruption, erupt is alright. Oh come on. That's not fair. What did you say then? Because we're given them. Yeah yeah. Yeah I think How precise an answer must be is up to the teams playing. Yeah. Should be decided at the start of the game. For example is bunk bed is bunk acceptable for bunk bed? Yes. No Depends whether you're winning by half a board or not.. Thatcher for Margaret Thatcher. Enlarged or enlarge. No it doesn't. Yeah. Alright. Yes. I think it is. Go on then. Your turn. Blue. Hang on. Can can I just raise a rule? What? If they win an all play on somebody else's they are immediately allowed to roll the dice and they won't stay for two. on all play. So they can get off all play. And then Do you mean you want to change the rule? No no. You've got to agree in at least I'm sure that rule is wrong about being on all play. If we have another all play If a word is not identified in the time limit the die is passed to the left. Yeah. The team receiving the die begins its turn by pulling a new card from the pack Yeah. not a roll of the die. That's right. Quite clearly you can't roll the dice the first time you win. Well it's just one of those unlucky things. The only times the die is rolled to advance the token is when a word is identified within the one minute time limit Yes. And you have another go. Yeah? or the team is first to identify the word in any hang on, hang on the only the time the die is rolled to advance the token is when a word is identified within the one minute time limit comma or a team is first to identify the word in any all play situation . Ah. Yes. Oh well we did that. We've been, twice we've had it. We should have had twice we've Yeah . I tell you what, you can have two rolls of the dice. Give them the dice. Right. Right. Yes. I thought it was wrong. Mum thought it was wrong. No but it's still our go. It's still our go. And another. It isn't it's five Five. Yes it is. It's still our go cos we won it. One two three four five. your go you have to pick a blue. Who's drawing? That's better. me. Me. Now what do we do in future? When you win one No. You haven't got a blue. If you're in an all play situation you can move on straight away. Can we ? Can we ? It's me to draw. What? You did the volcano. You to draw. You did the volcano. Oh yeah. Yeah. We'd have been there forever. Michelle to draw. You're right and wrong You did the er Oh no yes it's you to draw. Yes Still I think we done fair by giving two rolls of the dice. Have you looked at it? Oh I've got to see it. No. I haven't seen it. Is that it, the card? It's not all play. Oh. A Andy's got it's just a blue one. Did we roll our dice? Did we roll our dice? are you on your own? Mhm. Hang on. Did we No it's it's an all play. Ah. Blue, isn't it, it's on blue? Blue. Yeah. Blue with an arrow Did we roll our dice? Did we roll we didn't roll the dice. Did we roll our dice? No you don't roll it. Yes why not? We didn't have to roll You haven't got control. Oh yes. You haven't got control. We won that eruption. Yes. But it was their go Yeah. so you haven't got control. Why was it their go? Because they were on all play. Because it was an all play, for them. Blue is it have I blue? Yeah. Yeah. Give it to Joy. Don't go yet. Who's drawing? No, me. Right. Blue. Yeah. Who wants it? Ready No, turn it down. Oh. How many words? What on earth is that? Shadow. Tap. What is it, an object? Ah I can't see what this is. Reflection. A play game . A play board. Erm scrabble. Canasta Chess. Er chess. Puzzles. Chess. A chess man. She said it. What puzzles? She said it. Puzzle. Puzzle. I was trying to do that was a jigsaw puzzle Oh jigsaw puzzle. What did you do for puzzle? Oh Oh jigsaw, that's good. So you got it so you throw. Oh good. Right. It's Michelle's La la la la One All that effort. Action. Is it all play? No. Action. Oh well I don't mind. I don't like action ones . Go. How many words? They don't go. Shall I put that one back, that card? Wait a minute. Not yet. Get ready for how many words? Can't stand It's not that one. Oh. That's the card. It's not th , it's that one. Right. Go. Get ready for how many words? One medium quite long one. Oh that's easy. Oh yes. Oh yeah. Doddle. Action. Site? No. Lying down. Asleep. Asleep. Diving. Diving. Diving board. Swimming. Swimming. Yes. Swim. That's a good drawing there wasn't it? Yeah very good drawing. Oh it's bird's eye view. Don't draw such good drawings Michelle. Normally you draw the water er er over the head don't you? Michelle. Don't draw such good drawings. Yes but I mean you wouldn't guess that. It's hard to draw isn't it? Yeah. Whereas if there was someone in Have you played this game in France? Right you throw the dice again. Don't your foot under my legs. It drives me dotty. Two. All play. all play oh my god. Oh we've got to get off that mum. What have you got to do to get off it? Er Have you looked at it? It's red yeah? Yeah. Mhm. Oh how are we supposed to get that? Quite easily. Have you seen it mum? No. Turn it over. Red, mum. No I'm not drawing You know it you know it do you? Oh yes. Okay ready Okay ready. Go. Go. Camel. Waves. Er bendy Big waves. Storm. Speech Er waves. Storm. Gales. Rainbow. Er typhoon. Hurricane. Typhoon. Hurricane. Waves. Tidal wave. Gales. got it. Tidal wave. He got it. Yes. A tidal wave. We are brilliant. We are motoring. Motoring. Oh now how do we get off that now? We've won it. We throw the dice. We go again. We throw the dice. We throw the dice yeah. Please More paper please. One two three four five. All play again. Right. Is there any more paper Ruth? All play. All play. in the drawer. I'll get it later. There's no need. We are motoring. Wait a minute. see what you drew ? Tidal wave. We're nearly there. Mum, mum I was a bit slow. I got that one Have you got to get there exactly? No, I'm alright. I had typhoon. I was going typhoon and Right it's all play and it's your turn to draw. We are really motoring. Have you seen it? Yes, perhaps I do. No. Thank you. What colour? It's all play. What co , oh. Red. Wait a minute I haven't seen it yet. Dad we haven't seen it. Oh. Nobody's seen it . I wasn't going to look Yeah I've got it. How many words? Ready How many words? Erm One Dropping. Dead. Dead. Graveyard. Graveyard. Crematorium. Lots of people dead. Mortuary. Mortuary. Funeral. Oh Ruth! Why do you think of everything but funeral? Mortuary, rigor mortis. There's no man. You have to have a a man I was just draw a cemetery. What did they draw then? She thought of everything I think you might win this time. Oh no you there's problems at the end winning aren't there? There's erm You've got to win on a Ooh Ruthie! If we can get a five it doesn't matter And it's a ten! Two. One two. Object. Oh two. Oh he's got it. He's got it then. Who's drawing? Michelle. Is it all play? Blue . Oh yes. Once you go past the end you go on to the red and if you win it So you want to see it? Alright. All play isn't it? Is it all play? All play. Two. Hang on. I haven't Hang on. Oh this is ridiculous. There's no way. Wait a minute coming round. Here it is, blue. Everybody ready? No we haven't seen it. No Ruth's not ready. Hang on, it's blue. Ready steady go. Go. One word. Goldfish bowl. Erm Hammer Erm baths. Baths. Loo. Toilet. Yeah. Oh This is brilliant. We are going I . I was nearly there. Another couple of seconds I'd have got that. Let's see. How could she not get that. That was brilliant wasn't it? Who did the drawing? chain. Toilet . Very good drawing. You have to do it quickly Yeah oh that's sorry Have you done To win a team must reach the final play square for the chance to win. It must be the first team to identify the word in the same manner play as in previous all plays . Oh yeah. It's my go. It's your go? Oh, it's exhausting Okay. So if we can get a three if we get a three it will be an all play. Three or more it will be all play and if we win it we've won the game. Right. A team that reaches the final all play square cannot win the game by winning a round controlled by another team. You must first regain control of the die to attempt the winning word . I don't think there's any worry of that. Yeah. We're too far back. So if we get to the all play and we win the all play we've won. The exact roll isn't Yeah. Whoo whoo whoo whoo whoo Yeah but we if there's, if it's an all play . An exact roll of the die is not required to enter the square . Three or more. Yes. Six. Right. So this It's all play. The deciding all play. Right. You drawing. I didn't see it. All is in your hands, it's very serious you know. Pass it on. All play red? Red. Yeah. Oh what! What is it? We haven't seen it. Don't start it yet. We haven't seen the card. Card. Ah, I think I can get this actually. Right. Are you ready? Ready steady go. Two words. Aren't your drawings Heraldry. Hand. Water. Full. Water Throw. Oh no erm Water pump. Water, water Bucket. water shading. Water wiltering Can. Filter. Erm. Irrigation? Is it irrigation, the watering, sunshine, growing. No, no liquid? No. Erm Transfusion. Evaporation. Evaporation. Sweat Indians. Hey! Mm Is it a country? Cos I know she won't get it but I'm try pretty confident nobody else will but erm. Axe in the head. Indian. Fight. Two words. Red indians. Red indians. Gathering erm Are both the words the same? indians. Flowering, farming th planting, Don't think you'll ever get that word Seeds. so I'm trying to give you that one. Er smoke, bomb Indian arrow, arrow, bow and arrow. Erm No. It's it's gone. I don't think anybody's gonna get this. Bongo drums. Yes! Oh sorry no. I thought it had gone. Oh no. It's bongo drum. Oh. Bongo drum. I don't think anybody would have got that. got it What did you draw Who would have got bongo drum then? There's a drum he was drawing it. Let's see yours. A man sitting there without a I don't think anyone would have got bongo swap over. That's a man sitting there. people would have got drums Drumsticks. Would they have got bongo? I mean What about this man here with a great big bass drum? But you would have thought of it if you had a man in it. Didn't that help? No it didn't. What happens now do we try the next all play? Erm No it goes And we can't win. We can't win until we get What's that? hit the drum with. Oh. It's an all play. I thought you used your hand , bongo drums. So it's their turn? Yeah. It's your turn and if they all play then we all play. I was doing sticks I must admit. I can't draw hands. It's an all play this one ? I dunno, has it got an arrow on it? D O, the blue one? Has it got an arrow? Oh. Has it got an arrow on it? Don't don't shut A black arrow. Er yes. It has. It's all play then. It has. So we can't win if we get this. We can't win. We've just got to get control then we can win. Yeah. Yeah. Go on. No don't look at it! Oh yeah That writing on the blue is ever so difficult. Yes. It's dark isn't it? On your marks ready go. Ready steady go. Man. Fat man. Big man. Good man. Vest. Pockets. Oh. What was that Ruthie? Why did you do pockets because of the Oh yeah. Well! You see when she if you don't get it with Ruth Well I was trying to in the first ten seconds she goes ccchhhrrr Yeah. She scribbles it all up. That was pretty good, a pocket with buttons. Agog in whirlwind of, frenzy of frustration. Oh that's of Ruthie isn't it? It's like if you don't get hold It's cos you're so thick! I'm going to smack you. that's Ruth did a coat. Go on then. our go. action. do a coat when I could Oh here we go with this. Come on. Right. U U is A. She did the shoulders Is it brown? Is it all play? Brown? Oh not brown. I don't like brown. Can I have another colour? No. arrow. It's an arrow, yes. Oh well Oh we've got to get control to win this. It's easy if we don't show you what it is. Go on. There! Don't don't draw that. Don't show it, don't show it to them all. not supposed to see it. Oh. She doesn't want to see it. You can't see it when it's like that.. What colour is it? Brown. Brown. Brown oh that'll be, it's impossible. Erm Are you ready? How many words? Go. One word. One big word. Extra . I don't know. Emulate Piano. Car. Er What is it? Driving. Harpsichord. Piano Er Driving. What is it? What's this, action ? Er it's an action. Races. Saw, sawing. Driver. Sawing. Shooting. Banging. Bullets. Baaaaaa machine gun. Shoot blanks. Gliding. Surrender. Surrender. Er hands up. Defeat. Surrendering. Surrender. Victory. Victory. Ceasefire. Shot. Submit. Submitting. It's all yours. Ceasefire. Erm erm surrender. Surrendering. Hands up. Don't move. Erm er Surrender. All I can do is Surrender. Give in. Give in. Er stop We're giving in. Vic er prisoner of war Er White flag Take over bid. Hands up. Hostage. Something to do with a vehicle somewhere in it. Er Ambulance. you're nicked mate. Erm policeman. Arrested. Er Bank robbery. Robbery. Arrested. Hi-jack. How do you get that? That's what a tr with a transport I'd have done it with an aeroplane but That's harder. That means Mum, we we've got how do you do a hijack? Right. It's your turn again. Yes, if we win this we've done it. Okay? It's an all play. All play. Come on, let me have a look first. Ha! And me. Ha! It's a red one. What colour? That's simple. What colour? Oh red. Red. Red. A quick one then, is it? Is it a quick one? Are we all ready? Yeah. On your marks, go. A man. Raindrops. Skirt. Er snowing. Hand, tennis court erm loudhailer. Erm Pair of dolls. Music. Singing. Tennis. Coach. Recorder. Erm erm Er referee. Erm. Ref. Here we go again, she's off. Erm Blood. It's a Oh yes erm a conductor. Conducting. Orchestra. Yes. Aah!music. Conducting an orchestra. Erm erm. Orchestrate. Symphony. Play. Orchestra. Come one, anything else. Choir. Said choir. . Oh Symphony. Erm philharmonic orchestra. Chamber music. Philharmonic. Opera singer. Miss classic music. Erm Erm Classical. Violinist. Er percussion. Soloist. Got everything but. Don't listen to them mother, draw. I can't. I've forgotten what it was. Tenor. Erm baritone. Run out. Concert. Concert! What are these then? That's the people playing on the violin for the orchestra. And you missed your go so it's Eric. Thank goodness for that, they didn't get it. to catch up then. Blue. Er We're on a white dot all play. you're on your own. On our own. Good chance to catch up. How many words? I'll let you draw it, right. Cut it out you two . Is it all play? Ready, go. Oh no, on our, on our own. What is it? Oh what is it? Blue. It's blue. Oh we've got to have one on our own. What a nerve. They won't get it. Erm how do you do What is it? Start then. Brown is it? It's an object. It's blue. Blue. It's an object. He done us proud. That's I know what I would do. Sounds like Don't well I suppose you can help them, yeah. No. Er Book. Definitely know what I'd do. File. Erm Can I whisper something in his ear? No! Oh go on. He's miles behind. No. Sounds like Mm? Somebody what? No on the word you showed me how it could possibly I'm a good drawer. What? Oh yes. Done. What is it? I'll draw it. Rag. Rag. I would have done a car with somebody holding it Rag? Yes, this is tag. Sounds like I I I honestly, look what he's drawn me for rag . Yes rag is quite funny isn't it? It's For action I did a tag. It's brown is it? And a and a suitcase with a tag on it. confuses me. Well it sounds like You said you didn't think it sounds like r rag. Well what's thing here with a hole in it? Ready steady go. Tag. How do you draw a tag? I hope you get this I thought you said dancer. No sounds like. Well that's a mag. Sounds like . Waves, waving. A mag magazine. Oh my god Be quiet word with ing on the end. Rippling. That's it. Yeah that's it. good. Thank you. Your go. Do you want another piece of paper? No. We're coming up, we're coming up. Here we come. sixteen. My turn to draw A long long way to go though. Difficult. Well look where we are then. And we're on our own. Yeah. Ready steady go. Oh they're on their own. That's lucky. It's a One word? Manuscript. Er tent erm They won't get that. What is it? What colour? You have to be a fairly good drawer Man. else they'll start scribbling. Hieroglyphics. Erm alphabet, pen, calligrapher. It's hard. Very good Shorthand, pitman ty erm my gawd we've got a door. Er er we've got a lot of squiggles on that door. You're gonna get some you're gonna get some on it in a minute too if you don't up. erm erm Chisler. Erm what do they call it. Not quite. Sculptor. No, not quite. Erm grey stone er Dad. Dad. How does she know looking at, that's funny, that's from someone's subconscious. How would you know that that was a footballer? Alright? I mean But I I would have said somebody like that it's weird. That someone could get half the question right. He doesn't look like a football shirt on. And it looked modern. It looks like a modern photograph to me. It was taken about nine it was when he was eighteen. It was about nineteen fifty eight. Good looking though isn't he? hair. How did manage to get that Rupert bear? Easy. Eric, I got that, got that Eric thought it was a lion. Oh no. He did. I got that straight away. Oh your mum's A policeman? So can somebody find me the other one and I'll looks, oh that's alright. That's okay. I have got two. Well this one . I need, can you find that, oh I bet I've thrown that other one. Mind you that's the only one I can't Oh this is that was, that was a You didn't like the Africa one? Too hard. No. Too hard. You you should have done counties of England. Yeah, that would have been a good one. That would have been good interesting and funny. Ruthie got five marks for that didn't she? No, she didn't get as many as you expect. I got Sudan one. Nobody else got that. Ruthie is that one reserved for your mum, or can I take that one to the office? Si at the supermarket. Oh Oh we . We all had our go right? I, I guessed I got Sudan I don't know how Michelle managed to get Tunisia no-one else got that. She got Tunisia all had a guess Well french speaking I wonder if french speaking Tunisia I would have got it. Yes. But I didn't think of it. It's french speaking. I wonder whether she's had a holiday there. There's Morocco we should have got. We forgot about that. Yes she should have got those . French Morocco. Yeah Morocco and Algiers, Tunisia and Algiers are all French, French African colonies. Yeah. So she would have done that in her geography. Geography, see Michelle should have I was conscious that perhaps Michelle was gonna be a bit out of that bit, some of those Well so was Mutty . Thank goodness we didn't put Michael with them. Yes. That's what I said. That's why I moved Michael away. I said that's why I thought she had you and Mi Michael with Mootty and Michelle. I said no, we've gotta Well, I thought Michelle was I said you've got to put Paulie in there to balance it up a bit. Lucky he did cos Michael just shoved off didn't he? Well I was, unfortunately he didn't really balance it up enough did he? No, not quite. I couldn't. I mean I, I I didn't know all those. I mean I got the Maxwell I mean I think Mum got that. No, I didn't. Did Paulie's team come last then? Yeah. Yeah. By a long, quite a long way though. There was nothing I could have done though. I mean I didn't know all those things. this is why Karen and Adrian won, forgetting John Wayne like that. I mean they're going I I I suspected that anybody with Karen was gonna win. I think Karen was, Karen was just ? No no Didn't get that was Ernest Saunders. I mean I recognized his face. Bernard Manning. That was good, how they got those. Right, tape seven. I thought I was quite good. I mean mum wasn't that good was she because she I mean Freely admit I'm hopeless. General knowledge mum would have good. But either your questions, they weren't general knowledge were they? They were things you know like sports and what happens Couldn't people put cocktail sticks in the bin. I've come across cocktail sticks all night. Why don't they? I put mine in the bin. Oh I don't put them in the bin. they're so hard to put in the bin aren't they?and then forget about them. Well I never think What? I think they're doing quite well on those tapes. Well have I got any presents to come tomorrow? I haven't now have I? Not from me. Mine. Might have got er Oh Paulie's. but not a present. Something from You've got some cards haven't you? my sister. And you've got my one. Other than that, no. Oh well wicked dude. You those bird tables every time you go past on the way to Palace don't you? Yes. I was really hoping you weren't going to buy one Paul . Did you see how much they were? Only twenty four pounds. I know. I bet I'm glad you don't know how much ours was. I don't know what's been spilt on here. Ugh something disgusting. Where did you hide that? Where did you go to get ? garage. Oh. Got it at That was expensive though. How long ago did you have to buy that? Weeks Ages ago. Soon as I got paid last month. I went with her after school. You got it in the garage?magic yeah Awfully difficult to get it in the car wasn't it? I was gonna say. It was much bigger than I thought it would be. Can you dry the inside of that for me? Both sides of that. That has to dry before it gets What happened? Michael constantly spilt things. I know. Did you see, yeah he got, you know his duvet, your duvet's in ? What's he gonna sleep under? I didn't know it was the duvet duvet. Yeah. Well bring it down and put it in the wash now then. He has. I have. I'm hu I've hung the actual oth other bit up. The whole duvet or the cover or what? The whole duvet. Well I'd better put the duvet in the wash then. It's alright, it's hanging up. Well it'll be wet. What has he spilt? I think, I dunno. Red Rock Cider or something like that. I don't know what he was drinking. It wasn't coke.. I think those are the new extra life. I think they're both dead. It wasn't that's all I know. It wasn't coke? It was something er weird lemonade base . Bring me the duvet I think it was lemonade base Red Rock. It looked like the Red Rock that I've had. Bring me the duvet and let's have a look at it. Oh oh and my project could so easily have been ruined. Oh I know . You'd have been . All that work. And then I had to clear clear it all up. I suppose I offered because it was my . Did he sa did he say sorry? Er not well he did I suppose. Ah it's dried off mostly mum. Okay.I'm really really really gonna do this. Are these Christmas cards? Mum? Yeah she was quite proud of old Paulie though cos he, he stays and plays and all the other two just keep wandering off don't they? I mean I suppose Where did we buy this? I we allowed to open our Christmas cards? The glass is chipped. No. Oh. mine. Is it off ? No, don't think so. . Chipped oh yeah. it's dirty but Well it's cheap and cheerful but I was keeping it, you know within your budget. Yeah. You bought me both those within the budget? Oh you're recording mum. Okay I'll keep all my Christmas cards somewhere. Mum. What? I'll have to you've gotta give me chance to buy papa and grandma's grandpa's and I can wrap them up and give them to them at the golden wedding or can't I? No, what? Whose? Grandma and grandpa? Grandma's and grandpa's and nana's and papa's. I've got a few days I can go into work disco poster, I've gotta do this and that. Not this month, it's all gone now you can clear that off. Nothing. What's that mean? Number eight three 0 three. That means number three's got party. Eh? Num number number three he's got a party. Number three at eight thirty. Oh. What for? Oh you No it doesn't matter, I'll take Paul. Monday Tuesday Wednesday are free. Next weekend . He was shoved down the steps. Who by? Palace fans. No! He was. Very very rough he said. He was standing with a whole load of Palace supporters. What, she had a Manchester United scarf on did she? They both did. Mm. Anyway It stands to reason that you're gonna not pleased. Well get the more yobbo-y fans standing than the ones sitting. That's right? We had Palace Manchester United people sitting round us and there was no problem were there Paul? I mean, they have a dig, we have a dig at each other like you're talking and you you you talk, you know like you used to do? Talk to the next person but really you're talking to there say and they do it back to you, but erm Oh so he didn't, he won't be going again then? Think he was quite cross. So where was he standing? You should put it in context though. Ten years ago he wouldn't have dreamt of doing that at all, would he? No. Right? If you'd gone into a, with an opposing team's colours into a standing zone police wouldn't have let you go in there let alone wa you wanting to go there. They'd come out half dead. So what did they do to them? Pushed them downstairs, pushed them both downstairs. What in They literally pushed them down the stairs? Mm. What in that, all that that that ground they pushed them down the stairs during the game? during the game. It was probably after wasn't it? Moira said she didn't tell me all of it but Moira said he was very upset . Peter said it was a good game when they came home and found that Woking had won five nil they thought they'd chosen the wrong one . Who Terry? Peter. What was Ian like? I don't think they should pay, pay . You going to football tomorrow night? Yeah. Oh. I never heard, are we going with Michael? No. Homework. You offered didn't you? Homework. Half Dad? half, yeah. Are we being recorded? No. Oh yes, we are being recorded. Yes we are being recorded, yes. Paul , have you done your homework? Not really. Sort of. Maybe. Could have done Go on, have some flan. Don't like the flan. Oh go on. I don't really like it. Oh Paul! I tried a bit. I don't like it one little bit. It's not nice. Have some rice then. It makes you see in the dark. Have some rice then. This is the other rice. I What There's white rice in the other bowl. Cold? Mhm. Why? We usually have hot rice. Boil in the bag. So has it been cooked? So did you speak to Terry about the game? Not really. Did John when they scored? He said got very nasty when they scored two goals within two minutes around Hear no evil, think no evil, do no I dunno. Can you explain the other one to me? Least mine's explicable. Hear no, no, hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil, which leaves do no evil available. Do you understand it? talking to self Hear no evil speak no evil hear no evil see no evil speak no evil Do you understand it? Yeah. What? Well it's the only available e evil that's left. But it said do no. Yeah. What that doesn't make sense. Ah Paulie 's card. That was a nice one. Paulie didn't get that on his own did he? Take that, no that, no! Oy. Come on, off. Ruthie! What? I'll break Paulie's arm. Look, there's three minutes to go before the news. No get off, get off get off Ah get off Oh my watch! If that's broken, you're paying. If that's broken I'm paying nowt with nowt taken out.. Does this mean we didn't get the whole of London's Burning? I don't know Ruthie. Bailiff's dead. Is he? Did he die? Mm here's 'Arry, here's 'Arry boy. Oh he's singing . Look mum, dad. You've got a hammer. I'm missing my news. I bet you're not. Look, mum. You've got a hammer. Yeah I know. Oh yeah. Let's have a bit. have a hammer. tools . Watch out leave it at that please mum I wanna watch Oh go on! Be a devil. She's tucking in to your toffee. Mm. But she banging it. You have to bang it Ruthie. Bang it with the paper on it then it won't go all over the place. It's all about American poets. Fire away. Tell me any American poet you know. Brian Patten He's not American is he? Paulie's making it all up . Is Brian Patten American? Geoffrey Chaucer. There you are. He's ma , he's he's er squitting It's complete squit He's been exposed. What about one Eric something. Eric McGraw. What's an anagram of times to? What? How's it spelt? T I M E S T O. Let's have a look. Rather! What's a religious container? How many words? One word, eleven letters. Take it away from me. Take it do you want a bit dad? No thank you. small bit. Name a game with four letters ending in O. Solo. Polo? Solo. Yeah I know but it says game for a change. It's game for a change. Polo, solo Rollo. That's not a game! Dolo, scolo does it have to be O L O? No. Could be Game for a change. Might be an anagram of for a. Faro, look up F A R O. Mm? Look up F A R O. What country's that Kevin? This is Italy. Doesn't look like Italy. No such word. Oh yes there is. A game of chance played by betting on the order appearance of certain cards. Thank you. How did you get that? What was that? Faro. Ridiculous! We're having a whole day next term to sort out testing for the eleven year olds. Which is a total waste of time cos they'll rewrite it all in a year's time. Oh I'll go and . We're having Christmas dinner. Oh thank you Paul. Paulie, bring me in my, my or has it gone upstairs? Can you go upstairs, it's in Si's bedroom for us? I am certain to have Si's room. Do you want this lunch then Paul? No. You don't want it? Paul come on. Don't be silly. Oh what!up there to get it for you. Not me. Mm. Mm. Paul. What? Do you want christmas lunch? One pound eighty five, do you want it? I don't really know That's illiterate. The cost is not one pound eighty five pence. The cost is one pound eighty five. Do you want it? Turkey, quiche or packed lunch. You'll have turkey won't you? Turkey with all the trimmings? Yeah. Yeah? Good. But that's not the ti , the day we break up though is it? No. Why are we going home at two two o'clock then? Mum. Mum. I don't know. What form are you in? There's no money in my purse. Has anyone got any change? Oh, you give the money now? Yeah. Well, by Friday. You have to be joking. It's Sunday morning so I didn't want to do it. Right. I was asked though. They said I was good. Have you got any money? What to play rugby ? Personally asked. Kevin. Paul was personally asked if he wanted to join a rugby club . I'm wicked at rugby. I'm well skilful. Nobody else was asked. Blimey. Did he have a white cane? Eh? Like we watched Right we had had this like we had er ten minutes rugby of the world cup like and this guy he went whoooo ah . And then when we went out right, we had to do a tackle, you know a big tackle bag. We had to go boom like. Right while Have you got any idea what he's talking about? No. he had this big red bag, you had to tackle it. Yeah I know what it is, yeah. Right, and it's about A there okay? And he said aim for that A. Andrew comes up. Andrew jumped up, holds on to it, was standing with two . Then along comes somebody else, I've forgotten his name. I think it was Philip or something. And he comes up, kicks it, goes boom. Hits it so low, he knocks it off and he comes down the wrong way and lands on top of us. I did a beautiful . Come in, dive in boom on the A, excellent tackle. Yeah because you'd watched how the other two . In other words you get into the rugby team because you happened to go third instead of fourth. I did another one right Paul, was this in your lunch hour or in P E? P E right. The lady like, you know you have to hold it and let it go right. The lady was holding it like that I run up, I go ooh bang and it goes . Are you allowed to laugh in your P E lessons? Can you imagine anybody being hit by Paulie going ? Sorry, no! What was he, a pygmy or something? Anybody less suited to play rugby, Paul, is hard to imagine. No. Stubby was good. Old good old Stubby. Stubby himself. Not Stubby Wilkins? Stubby . Stubby . It like something out of Bu Billy Bunter doesn't it?. . What's the old country, Kevin? Eh? What's the old country? Talk about the old country, what is it? In what context? Give me a context. Anything. The old country, you know. When people say old the old country. Is it England? Yeah think so. Stubby . His name's Stubby . Brilliant. I think Andrew's was the funniest where he just jumps up, goes woof What were you meant to do? Right. There's this big red bag. It had said four A's, four A's Name some types of leather? It had A's up there. Pigskin. And Andrew, he wasn't started so he jumped More. and sort of went like this and landed on it and went bang down. More. Hide. He really came down like this. He was rolling all over the floor More. . Then I came up. Stubby sent it for six. He comes, he goes poof. He knocks it and he goes woof. But the lady's such a wimp though. lady or how you call them. What's raw fish? Salmon. Disgusting. Pukey, I dunno. What's it begin with? They're not, they're cryptic clues. Okay. What's a raw fish. What's a raw fish not, not a good spot. Who wrote Leaves of ? Nobody. It's anonymous. that word? It was anonymous. Anonymous. Get your homework done Paul please. Eric . Well that's Eric Wheeler. I can see Wheeler in there. Oh I don't think it is. Well I'm so brilliant. I should know. Also what's happened to my book? It's disappeared hasn't it? Mum. Well you can't have it. my Paul! You can't have it. You work on that table. Put that table like, hang on to that no, sit up at that table . Why can't I Just do as you're told. Why can't I Do as you're told. Oh please! Go on. No. No . Ooh there's a horrible bit coming up where she bounces off a white, they use a white car, it's disgusting. One of Mike's friends What? her sister committed suicide. I reckon she watched this. She was cooking the meal, right? Cooking the evening meal, her husband's left her but has been pestering her or something. And erm she's just cooking the meal and she went upstairs went into her son's bedroom, got his belt and hung herself and her children coming back from school and find that. Lovely thing to do to your child. Doesn't matter how desperate. Who, who hung herself? Who hung herself? Mike's friend's sister. And Mike's friend's sister said that if this husband comes to the funeral he's gonna swing for him. He's gonna go for him. Gonna assault him. Who, Mike's friend? Yeah. How old is Mike's friend? And the dad of the wo woman says not if I get to him first. Blimey. You don't think of your children to do something like that do you? How can you, could you do that if you've got I mean he's about twelve or thirteen comes home from school on tranquillisers because the balance of your mind is disturbed. Must be. Is that the bit of the body I think it is? It's a knee. Well shall we just see that again? I thought you weren't meant to let them sleep on their fronts like that. Well you're not really. It's up to you. Paulie always slept on his front and he's alive to tell the tale unfortunately. Do you know any American poets? I just told you, Eric Wheeler. You know when I do A squared, do I write four squared as well four ? No. What's that ? I don't really do, do I? I do A squared which is two times two equals four. What about an A with a little little three, a little little three, a little little three. That's two times two times two. It's A times A times A. Yeah. So there. Two times two is four times two is eight . A four. Eight times two is sixteen. C two If you're at football tonight can't do any recording tomorrow night or will you record on the way again? I don't really know. record on the way again, can't we? No problem. Actually we're doing quite well with that tape recorder. We didn't, we've done two sides already now, tonight. Leave your nails alone. Well I can't see the television. Why did you move the chair back where I left it? You moved the chair. Why don't you sit in that seat? Mum, this seat is lovely if you lean back. It wasn't him, it was that ginger haired woman cos she always takes the Go on. mushrooms. What's sixteen times four mum? Mum. Six four. No. Are you allowed to transact business at the door Paul? That's fantastic. I've just started doing all this and I'm supposed to be doing section H. Well done mum for reading that out wrongly to me. What are you doing? Section A? H nine. You start up A squared don't you? Yeah. Why? That's section G. Oh aren't you going to do section G? Oh this is Oh mum! Well it won't hurt Mum! you to do section G. section H . It won't hurt you to do G . I'm supposed to do section H and section I. Well will it matter if you do G? I don't really know. It might. It might not. I might jump in the lake, I don't really know. You might get an extra merit mark if you do an extra session. I don't really know. I don't! I don't really know. Oh fantastic! That's a great lot of help you are. It'll do you good to do G. It won't do me good to do pipsqueak questions. If they're pipsqueak why are you asking me? I'm not Two A three. Two A means two times two is four. No it doesn't. Two times A cubed. So what is it? What's A cubed? It's eight, so it's sixteen. Mm? Two B two C. Now then Two B. Two B squared C? Yeah that's what I already said. What? Don't forget Two B little two with a C after it. Two B squared C? What? Show me. What G seven? Two B squared C. Well what's C? B, you do the square bit first. B squared. Oh. Nine. Right. Times two. Eighteen. Times C. Eighteen times C. Eighteen times what? Times two. I knew that. What, and was it seventy two? Mm. Come on Paul. Get it done. You're supposed to be sitting up at the table. That's what the table's there for. Four A two B. I don't understand how to do these. You do the A squared bit first. Two squared is Four. Times four. Sixteen. Times C. Sixteen times three? Is forty eight. Mm. What are horse's odds Kevin? You what? What are horse's odds? Horse's odds. Mm. What are they? Well what could they be in letters? Evens? is it a ? I don't really know. No letters? Ah. Right outside our house. Father Christmas is What is it? walking around. Well you'd better get some money ready then hadn't you? I haven't got a penny in my purse. There's a pound upstairs Paulie. Have a look upstairs . Hurry up. Quick and no-one's singing. Who's it for? That's a milkfloat isn't it? Effective isn't it? Who is it, Rotary? Yeah it's Round Table for the old people. Bit early I agree but See what they've done they've waited for December haven't they? It's rather crafty and they're gonna do it every night. Well I bet they go on every night until go out stop it again Paul. Bang. Bang. Oh Paul get on with your job. I asked you for your one pound eighty five and you said no. You pay, I'll pay you back. paper I can have Paulie? I don't really . So three A two mum, what do I do first? The A two? Yes. So I do two squared is four times the three? Mum? Mum. Three A two. A equals two, two times two is four times three? Yes. Oh. Times four B so I keep it. Twelve plus four B? What's B? Three. Well it's twelve plus twelve. That's twenty four. Twenty four's the answer? so American poets. I told you Eric Wheeler. I'm not gonna keep saying that one. It isn't Eric. It's E something L something. Eldric. Doesn't fit! Mum guess What's colloquial for greens? Pulses. three letters. Greens is in golf isn't it? Greens? What is it G A B A V E? What's he doing Golf, what do you play on? Golf Well don't let him in yet. course going? tee. Minus twelve. What's minus twelve? got to answer the question forty eight minus sixty. Is it minus twelve? Surely it's forty eight times sixty. Is it M A and U minus twelve? It's N cubed minus M N U. N is four t N Four fours are sixteen. Sixteen fours are sixty four. What! You said forty eight! You asked me what sixteen threes are. Oh! Sixteen . So it's four, the answer. He's a dreadful actor isn't he? No well suppose Well he's doing that quite well. I mean what he's done what the director's telling him to do. Well yes. Yeah. It's a crummy part isn't it? Utter rubbish. This isn't London fire oh can you re- run that please? Well I don't think we want to see that do we? Oh I l I l I like looking at it that's the main thing. Oh! Please. It's better going up than down. Yeah . Yeeeow. Yeeeow. It's the same thing over again on two. Yeeeow. And again yeeeow. Four times. That's when it came down on him. That's the end. That last one was when it came down on him wasn't it? That was his view. Oh dear. Bang. Ooh. Hot spot. What is a hot spot is not a good spot. Aren't you a bit early for chrissy decorations isn't it?our tree when send for it. Made eight hundred and fifty quid on Saturday. Hundred down. Joyce said their fare was a hundred down as well. How was sorry what was how much? We made eight fifty that's a hundred down but Joyce said their fare was a hundred down as well. Mm. The people who used to get a thousand aren't quite getting a thousand any more. Mum! Erm what is three M squared U? Three M squared U? M squared first M squared first! Hello, we're at fisticuffs here. Except his cop badge. What is M squared mum? I'm cracking up. M equals three. Three squared is nine. Nine threes are twenty seven. What's U? Five. Twenty seven fives? Paulie's burnt out like that fireman, look. He's got algebra fatigue. He's gone. Come on mum! A hundred and thirty five, use your maths. You, she shouldn't be using her maths! You should be doing it. I just did! A hundred and thirty five! What's the problem then? Don't understand how it looks. Can someone please tell me the names of some American poets! We don't know any. Is that the answer? A hundred and thirty five? Might be. Oh. Come on . What is a fabled being? A unicorn, what else?a fabled being. I don't know. Perhaps it's a rug. Oh look. It's me favourite. Or or dad or Ugh! or a rug. Or What ugh? Geoffrey Archer or magic Johnson with a stick? No. or Ian Maxwell or a video recorder or a packet of hula hoops. You're not helping? I've never got so I've never not got so far with this crossword. interesting. Dad can I ask you seeing she's totally void of any brains. Yeah I can knock it, I'll knock it home. Oh look! The watch on the right there they both get smashed but the one on the back will cost you the one on the right will cost you as much to replace its glass as the one on the left completely. You think the other one's gonna be alright but of course they both get smashed. But the one on the right it's glass will cost you more to replace than the complete Beware of an expensive imitation. Okay dad. They're good because that's the company you bought me Dad the one with the brain can I ask you? Yeah. And the one with the sense of humour and the one that actually Daddy can't do algebra. Well you can't either obviously, can you? You can only do it when you're in the right mood. Three Q R squared. What! Three Q R squared. Three Q R squared? What's R? I don't really, oh I'm looking at the wrong bit. You're not concentrating at all Paul are you? Two N two M. N two first N squared equals four is sixteen times the two is thirty two Why don't you do it on a calculator? times three ninety six. It's against my rules to use a calculator! Well who's gonna know! Make note of that brilliant word used there. What? Morals. Morals. You said it's against my something else didn't you? Morale, no it was a wicked word. Oh what a weird advert this one, look. Post in spell? Holsten pils. Oh. Stupid advert. Pil ce not pils. Tut. Pils! It is pils. You say Pilce. can I have a pils when you go. No, you pilce. Oh you haven't gone up to a bar and asked for a pils have you? No, but you have. You have. Have I. You always ask for a pils. What's wrong? Oh what's he done? a child minder I suppose. What goes on water? A boat. Water skiers. Going on water they must stage a . It's What's another word for a brawl? S skirmish. Er Quarrel. A scrap. Yeah, a scrap. Motteose Who? What? I dunno. A motteose? Times to find character in brawls . I think it might be an anagram of times to. Well write it down. I'm writing it down. Strike. Or perhaps it's in brawls and means . What's the sound of nails? What are burdens? What? What is a burden? You know what burden means. Three letters. He's in London's Burning. Mm. Who? Which one? Him. As who? Dunno but he is. He's the one who's just had a breakdown. Who has? No it's not. That man with a beard has just had a breakdown in London's Burning. Mum What the one no we haven't just seen him. No. Yeah with the beard off. No it's not! No way! No I'm not, don't rewind it. It's not. I can't rewind it. Easy to tell it's not. He's got a beard on, he's different, looks different with a beard on. Mum, you think you've seen everybody before. Why is she in a huff? She's pregnant. Give me a first name that begins with R and ends in an H. Two times one is two yeah? Yes. Plus three cubed that's two. Three times two is six, that's seven. Four R nineteen . P Q R. That's P times Q times R. One times two is two, times three is six She reminds me a bit of Jen this girl. Don't think Jen would thank me for that though. No. Nor do I. Give me a three letter word for a . What's wrong with her? Why, why wouldn't she thank you for that? well I dunno, well I think she's quite nice actually. Jen might think she's a bit tarty but she plays a tarty bit in it doesn't she? It's a horrible part, she . What is one squared? One times one is one isn't it? That's one plus two times three, six. The answers six. Give me a type of weapon. A gun an arrow er. Give me the letters. What, how many letters? Seven. Er slingshot. A sword a shield an axe spear er a dagger. Dagger? It's longer. Don't know. I want a fabled being. What? Fabled being. A mythical creature. Er Ha! December the second nineteen seventy one. Twenty years ago. Is it deliberately supposed to be that because it's December the second today? Yeah. Four P Q R mum, does that mean It means four times P times Q times R. Oh yeah I know that. Do it for him then. Four times P When the letter goes dot next to it it's multiply isn't it? Dad! Dot? Well you know next to each other like, like Q P R that's Queens Park Rangers. Queens Park Rangers. You multiply queens by park by rangers. That's like saying six bananas times four apples. You can't do it. Yes you can if you know what it is. You can't. You can't multiply four bananas by six apples. But then why me to be able to do four four Q P R? Because they're different units. They're not actual things. Oh stop going on about rubbish. So it's I can't do this crossword because I don't know any American poets. four times one. Come on, forget about it . It's not very important. Well what's that? Yes this is. It's miles more important than that. Mr will tweak his ear off if he doesn't get that done. Four plus two is eight times three is sixteen no twenty What's colloquialism for the green party? Environment. Have they got any initials? No seats. Yes! I've finished it. Oh I hate maths. It's really hard, specially homework. Algebra! How many points is er in front of you now? Mm he's got sixty one and I've got fifty four. Oh well he's just pulling away. Like if you look like er Woking, you're W he's Woking and you're Enfield. Paulie. I've just beaten him Your maths like Laura . What's Laura got? She's a . God if you're away you lose points. Vital points. she doesn't lose any vital points. You what? Oh lose any vital points. only got one when she gets back. Paulie I want my back scratched. Come on! Get out of it! Means money. Not a chance. Not a chance in a million. Dad. D'you know what that guy's name is? Who? Desmond. Which one is Desmond? Desmond! Which one? Oh the old one? Yeah Desmond doo doo doo Desmond. His name is Desmond. Da da da Desmond. His name is Desmond. Desmond, his name is Desmond. Da da da da . Right get that tape going Paulie, quick. It's on. Oh yeah I didn't see in the end. I thought see him . Went out to see the puppet,, one good thing at least it shows he's being quite a good boy not sure about the school about the school . Well, they've had, they've only had you must of been better or Miss Johnson would of said you couldn't go to the public Well, it's because it's a waste of time stopping him going to see them, if that doesn't work you don't keep doing it do you? Yeah, but how do you know it didn't work? He didn't even know did he? What did uncle Edward say about . the Rumbelows cup, I said you said that without when they don't win the league you say ah, its only the league. Well we beat them four, three in the F A cup final cup. She don't, the first time in our history Yeah, and the , that's ever been made to have one in that competition, they've been beaten cup. European's in the F A cup then? That ain't terrible they mentioned Swansea in the early sixties, but eh Does the top I don't, I'm thinking if I had some scrapers always managed eventually get through like we did. ah, ah they've got a better crowd for that day ain't they dad? I don't know why. Warmer There must of been three thousand, two and a half thousand, membership at Birmingham's So what Birmingham's Do they? don't know with all that corner and a, a, and one with great, one with the lock in the Alex could have to take a day off work . Oh a couple of there's youngsters, there what, those two boys that talk to us they must of been about, at the most eighteen I think, messing about getting chips and fish and burgers and stuff,rubbish. home. There's two blokes, that, in there, in the fish shop the one in the blue, the tall one,eighteen, they were about twenty three No. they weren't, they weren't in their teens, no way. You went to see that bloke only maybe still at school just finishes school about two years ago Yeah really, that guy in the blue? Got the car things going through. Mm,got them, on Monks Lane the But he's injured. Yes, and its not through yet, presumably they'll have another look at it at the end of the month. You want the papers you've yet to find someone with a painting and He is fast quick off the mark when he gets going That's what he says, I really have seen the place, the man in the pass him Why? What's wrong with that penalty I saw it, but Paul doesn't agree. How do you know it's on now? What's wrong with that? Seems to me like he saved it. Yeah Just mucking about, look, look, he . Oh. eating. Who me?dad. Pretty good Paul just eat. I Sshh Oh,thank you treasure when you've finished your milk Paul you can have the paper back. it off. Have we seen it? No. Eight o'clock I'll record it for you, you are watching it? sequel rip off Yes, your right What? I haven't seen it before I think I might of done No. Tom Banks and some twelve year old in a thirty five year old body anyway you are not watching it because you are going to bed eight o'clock, is that not right daddy? What time did you get in last night? Twelve Is it necessary to be so rude Paul? What did uncle say about . the Rumbelows cup, I said you said that without when they don't win the league you say ah, its only the league. Well we beat them four, three in the F A cup final cup. She don't, the first time in our history Yeah, and the , that's ever been made to have one in that competition, they've been beaten cup. European's in the F A cup then? That ain't terrible they mentioned Swansea in the early sixties, but eh Does the top I don't, I'm thinking if I had some scrapers always managed eventually get through like we did. ah, ah they've got a better crowd for that day ain't they dad? I don't know why. Warmer There must of been three thousand, two and a half thousand, membership at Birmingham's So what Birmingham's Do they? don't know with all that corner and a, and one with great, one with the lock in the Alex could have to take a day off work . Oh a couple of there's youngsters, there what, those two boys that talk to us they must of been about, at the most eighteen I think, messing about getting chips and fish and burgers and stuff,rubbish. home. There's two blokes, that, in there, in the fish shop the one in the blue, the tall one,eighteen, there about twenty three No. they weren't, they weren't in their teens, no way. You went to see that bloke only maybe still at school just finishes school about two years ago Yeah really, that guy in the blue? You heard about the eh education secretary's faux pas somebody from Jack section, he, he's apparently he slipped up er, and said right and Jack said to him I was to tell the education authorities suggest that you do when the education er clerk turn to Mr and said you are just ,streaming is when he put one child in the same group for all subjects, setting is when there in different groups according to their ability, so you could be a Maths set A or an English set B, awkward isn't it? Imagine rushing out to find your equipment Yeah so Jack good cos he's a teacher. Yeah, funny but he had to shout you are just playing with the So what, what have, we've been No, you've been streamed, oh no you've been are on different groups then?, have you got a photo of them in the top set for something and the bottom set for top set for bottom set for a, at least a year. Are they? down the stream they are it's strictly speaking streaming is when Paul would be in the top group for everything not necessarily, I mean settings better really it's important if he can do it, ain't that awful education then? So do you mean settings a No I think he generally thought they were the same thing, I think I would of done if I wasn't an educationalist, but I mean it's his business to know really isn't it? What's Samantha? Words, she's playing with words. We're not are we? No, quite. There's a different why would you want to be a streamed, after all . Well streaming's easier, the completion Yeah, Ruth look, crumbling school Is it? You could always say your spending more every year. Well John to spend more cos John just phoned up by three hundred pounds. Mind you he gets things done doesn't he? Yeah, but we can't afford that, says he might have to loose staff he says anything that comes into his head. Very dodgy position, but your the one that's just taken up full time post I'm not. Maybe Well got a contract that made redundant I'm not permanent What? I'm not permanent. What do you mean? What, er, Vicky and that have got temporary contracts, Moira's got a temporary contract I mean if you want could you say I want the same as fourth year job? No, I would say I want the same school, you can do with me what you like, Paul I suggest you don't throw that away before I loose my temper with you. He, he's allowed to choose which one he makes sacks, sacks though isn't he, I mean You can't, you have to, people with temporary contracts have to first Really?, have too? Yeah and he got I think. Are you look how much he's eaten. Are you friendly with the governors? I don't need to be, It's a bit like me, you don't expect to loose your job but you, you can, you can, no one these days can say you can't No , no Everyone now knows you can. Yeah Trouble is with all this efficiency right and we can cut cost and do this and we streamline this, in the end unless you tell people, you've still got those people on your hands haven't you, you still in the end you've got to pay their unemployment benefit haven't you? Yeah. and then you wonder sometimes, okay it makes everybody off balance balance, the balance all balance their books, but in the end they all start complaining about that extra tax and corporation tax, why, because the governments got to play with the people of income Mum employed. Yeah do you reckon at the end of this year will offer you a full time job? I've got a permanent contract, I'm safe until September ninety two then my job doesn't exist any more, then I'm not Hang on, will he offer you the job? Offer me what job? You've got one year fourth year, yes? Yeah Well he I've got two years two years Is everybody like that though, is to mean here's Jan, where's Jan's contract go too? Jan Yeah, she's permanent Well The only reason is because my year vanishes oh in two years time my year doesn't exist any more so you could be made redundant then I could be, yes, But don't you get one option I was given two year option in the first place, so so So he doesn't moved down vanish does he? well he does really. Everyone moves down one. Yes, but a lot of people refuse to move down one. It's only one year difference is it? You'll find that No one wants to move down one. Yeah, but you'll find that when the people will get threaten with their job loses they do everything, do anything. Oh I won't. Well you want to keep searching. I don't mind teaching one year though, but nobody else wants to move down, I move down and Liz moves down that's this places Jo erm, Jan they won't want to move down, they move down that the next two, they don't wanna move, Terry doesn't want to go down any lower Why does go down in the first place? Before the National Anthem yes, yes, yes. You could get round that, if you went out during the singing of it. Mm. Mm. You either got out before, or at the beginning because of those at the beginning. I know, when we used to down to London to the London Scout Gang Show. They always used to play the National Anthem before . Before. Yes, yes, yes. It always seems appropriate to me to open, if you going to have a National Anthem at all, you should open with it, Open with it. Yeah. Erm, and erm, and in a way, get it out of the way, but in a way register the fact that erm, you are observing, Yeah. the importance of the Nation, if not the importance of the monarchy. Especially when you travel to London, I mean, it meant it late,co couldn they did it first, didn't they, so you got it in. Mm. And then you were away, yes. Then you went to the Gang Show. To the Gang Show rather. Yes, yes, yes, yeah, yeah . I wondered if they still did it at the pictures, 'cos it's years since I went to the pictures. I have no, no, no, I don't, I I wouldn't think I wouldn't think it's been played in a cinema for years. I was in a cinema on whichever evening, Saturday evening, and they certainly didn't have that. They had lots of advertisements, Oh, yes. be at the end, don't they. Yeah, no. Half of hour of advertisements. Yeah. Come in, hello. Hello. Well what can I do for this lady today? No, it's just me this time. Yourself? It's just my womb Doctor. actually going into now on, in July. Oh they've got you organized. Aha. Right. But not to do with my back. What what this, what they gonna do to you ? To get a, to get a laparoscopy and a D and C. Oh right,right . Who is this? It'll be Dr . Dr , Dr . Aha. There you are Jean, that'll keep you right . Keep you out of mischief for a wee while again. Anyway, right thanks now . Right, okay,che cheerio now. And subtract from that figure the corresponding figure for an engine capacity of one thousand and one to fourteen hundred C C, namely one thousand two hundred and fifty three pounds and thirteen pence for the vehicle I find she would otherwise have run. To achieve a figure of two thousand and thirty five pounds seventy five pence for annual depreciation. I allow six hundred and ninety two pounds fifty five pence for standing charges excluding depreciation and thus these two heads total the sum of two thousand seven hundred and twenty eight pounds and forty pence. To that must be added the running costs of a, at a si at a similarly discounted rate deduced from the A A tables of nine p , nine point four eight tenths of a mile. I assess the annual mileage as six thousand which then gives a total for running costs of five hundred and sixty eight pounds eighty pence. The total for all running costs is therefore three thousand two hundred and ninety seven pounds and twenty pence. Applying a multiplier of eighteen to that figure, I arrive at a figure of fifty nine thousand, three hundred and forty nine pounds and sixty pence, which is the award I would make. It is neither the ninety seven thousand, nine hundred and fifty seven pounds claim by Mr nor the forty seven thousand one hundred and eighty five pound figure contended for by Mr but I find it a fair figure for the cost of the plaintiff's transport in the years ahead. Sub-heading medical expenses. On evidence before me I find that the plaintiff will require regular physiotherapy, speech therapy and hydrotherapy throughout her life. I heard evidence of the one domi domiciliary visit per week of the physiotherapist had been stopped in September because of lack of resources. I heard evidence that regular speech therapy at six monthly intervals was necessary for the plaintiff, particularly in view of her dribbling and choking problems. Equally I'm satisfied that her hydrotherapy is both reasonably necessary and beneficial. It follows that for si , physiotherapy I award the sum of one thousand seven hundred and sixty eight pounds per annum. For hydrotherapy a similar sum and for speech therapy the sum of two hundred and twenty five pounds per annum, totalling three thousand seven hundred and sixty one pounds per annum . Applying a multiplier of eighteen, the total sum is sixty seven thousand six hundred and ninety eight pounds, which is the sum I would award. Sub-heading administration costs. I am satisfied that the plaintiff is in a state where it is reasonably necessary to provide for the costs of setting up and maintaining a trust to handle the plaintiff's financial interests over the years ahead. The costs involved are agreed at the sum of eight hundred and eighty one pounds and twenty five pence to set up the trust and an annual cost of three thousand two hundred and thirty one pounds twenty five pence. Applying the multiplier of eighteen to that figure, one arrives at a figure of fifty eight thousand one hundred and sixty two pounds and fifty pence which when the additional costs are added in comes to the total of fifty nine thousand and forty three pence, I'm sorry, fifty nine thousand forty three pounds and seventy five pence which is the figure I would award under this heading. Sub-heading, agreed figures. The figures claimed under paragraph two C of the plaintiff's schedule for transport costs are agreed at six thousand seven hundred and ninety four pounds. Those at two E for the schedule for Mr costs are agreed at thirteen thousand four hundred and forty seven pounds and ninety pence. Those at three E of the schedule for Mr costs are agreed at a total of a hundred and forty four thousand six hundred and fifty nine pounds and fifty nine pence. I should also itemise claims which were made under two heads which have been satisfied by interim payment. There was a claim for forty two thousand seven hundred and eighty six pounds and eighty six pence for the cost of alterations to the plaintiff's home already carried out as I have indicated already, that was discharged by payment and by local authority grant of nine thousand eight hundred and forty seven pounds and an interim payment of thirty two thousand nine hundred and thirty nine pounds eighty six pence. There was also a claim for medical treatment and therapy in the sum of eighty three thousand three hundred and seventy nine pounds and twenty six pence which was paid by a further interim payment. Neither of those sums of course has to be taken into account in any of the mathematics which now have to be done to total up the awards which I would make. The addition of the individual awards which would be made in the course of the aju this judgement achieve the total figure of one million eight hundred and fourteen thousand six hundred and fifty two pounds and twenty eight pence. From this sum there must be deducted a total figure of two hundred and ten thousand seven hundred and seventy eight pounds and ten pence. To give credit for other interim payments totalling one hundred and twenty one thousand five hundred pounds. For interest on interim payments totalling seventeen thousand eight hundred and seventy one pounds and thirty pet pence and for statutory benefits on the relative multi relevant multiplier of eighteen, coming to a total of seventy one thousand four hundred and sixteen pounds and eighty pence. When those credits are deducted from the total figure for the awards covered by this judgement the overall total figure would amount to one million six hundred and three thousand, eight hundred and seventy four pounds and eighteen pence. I stop this judgement at this stage for two reasons. These figures do not allow any sum for interest and therefore it may be that calculations will have to be made by council to include that figure or alternatively I am informed that both parties wish to consider the possibility of the incorporation of this judgement into a structured settlement. That is not a matter where the parties are sufficiently advanced for it to be addressed to me at this stage. It follows that I expressly do not give judgement at any figure at this stage but indicate merely what the findings are which I have made and what the sums which those findings lead to, are. If there is to be a time taken for a further hearing before me in relation to the question of interest and or a structured settlement, I regret that the parties will have to follow me, not purely from Chelmsford to London but thereafter to Maidstone. I am sure that the arrangement can be made and er I conclude what I have to say at this stage. My Lord I am very grateful for that. My learned friends and I will therefore er seek to resolve as soon as we can, the matters that are outstanding. I know that everybody involved in the case is conscious that matters should not be left in the air, although the amendment to leave the cost of the . I now speak for my learned friend when I say that he will expert that. Er, My Lord we will obviously calculate such interest that has to be calculated er and figures have to be sorted out and will be agreed if that is appropriate, er and we'll also consider whether it's proper er to seek to achieve a structured settlement. Very well Mr I'm grateful. Do not feel at all shy about seeking to correct any figures that you think are perhaps in error. My fingers on my calculator are not as nimble as they should be. My Lord m may I add one further matter, er, My Lord may I say on behalf of the family er the that your Lordship's comments will be very gratefully received er, neither Mr or Mrs , although they've sought recognition for what they've done for their daughter, they did it out of their fond love for her but nevertheless having such a and such comment from your Lordship will be very, very good. Well that's good of Mr . I don't think there was any word that I said that wasn't fully deserved by both the parents and their other daughter Clare. My Lord the the final matter is, my learned friends and I agreed that it would be proper for there to be a further interim payment er in the sum of twenty five thousand pounds. Yes Mr We consent to that and your Lordship one direction to help us when we come to calculating interest is one of the earliest figures that your Lordship came to and it was dealing with care to date. Yes. Your Lordship split into two periods. The first one was done on an hourly basis, it's the second one, where your Lordship applied the multiplier of two and half to a figure taken from Miss calculations of of thirty six thousand pounds one hundred and fifty. Er, Mrs figures my Sorry my Lord, er Mrs figures, yes Yes, thirty six thousand one hundred and fifty pounds and seventy two pence. My Lord I Multiplied by three point five which I brought to a figure of a hundred and twenty six thousand five hundred and twenty seven pounds and fifty six pence. My Lord the only point of interest and it's really one that I took in the of the submission is that if you use an up to date nineteen ninety three figure for calculating it when it was first back to years three and a half, two and a half and one and a half years ago, then intre it wouldn't be fair if interest is awarded on that as well because in a sense the increase in the figure that inflation and the increased cost of living has produced because you use an up to date figure, probably equates with the interest and we can the figure an up to date one to avoid just that otherwise it would be getting the figures for each of those years and then working out interest. That your Lordship would direct, it would be in our task that that figure shouldn't have interest added to it because of the way in which it was approached. I think that's probably a logical conclusion because of the way the figure was reached in submissions. Mr what do you say? My Lord my initial reaction is it sounds logical as well and I I wondered if if what my learned friend has said i if and also what your Lordship's initial view is, if the matter can be left in that way er i if after further reflection, it seems right then of course that's the way that we will approach it. I if there is any problem that can be mentioned it won't take more than thirty seconds I would have thought. Shall we leave it that I will consider making a direction at the next hearing in relation to that figure and the question of any interest thereon but will defer any such er decision until you've had time to consider it. My Lord I'm very grateful. There isn't I think anything else that can be done this afternoon. In that case may I apr clude by wishing the parties and their advisors a very good Christmas. claiming for damages for breach of contract and your negligence against their former solicitors in relation to their handling of the purchase of a business by the plaintiff in late nineteen eighty five but all the say is on the nineteenth of October of nineteen eighty nine er my Lord the matter is complex. It has er generated a great deal of documentation er which I hope that your Lordship has with him now in court, er, the documentation has been divided for trial into two parts, part A and part B. With your Lordship's leave erm, my learned friend and I have discussed erm, how your Lordship may best be helped in this matter. Erm what I have in mind to do my Lord, is to open the case now for you to indicate the scope of erm and will you then know,agreed that we would invite you to adjourn that for some time to enable you do some reading of the witness statement and expert's reports because of course they are long and that would take considerable amount of with your Lordship is able to familiarise himself with the matter which is contained therein. Er, and if your Lordship is happy to do that then I can open it now and indicate what the case is about and invite you to take some time. Thank you. My Lord, part A erm of the documentation contains three separate bundles. Bundle one is the pleadings bundle, which I hope your Lordship's had an opportunity to glance at er this morning, part A trial bundle one is the pleadings bundle. My Lord the pleadings bundle runs to almost a hundred pages erm, this is due principally to the fact that there are something like four sets of particulars to statement of claim which have been served over the years er where the plaintiffs have set out their claim in er in detail. My Lord the second bundle, part A bundle two contains the witness statements. There are statements from both the plaintiffs. Does your Lordship have the it should be er a small red file bundle that looks rather like that my Lord. Part A Part A trial bundle two it should say on the front of it. Yes thank you. Thank you. The the trial bundle two contains the witness statements in the action and your Lordship will see erm on the indexing page that there are statements from David and Jean , the plaintiffs. There is then a statement from er a witness to be called on bail, June . There is then a statement from Peter erm who was the partner with the said firm with whom the plaintiffs dealt at all the relevant times in relation to this matter. Er, he too obviously is . And finally there is a statement from a woman called Sarah who was at the time of these events,church and her statement can be read because there is nothing in dispute in it. Yes. Erm my Lord that trial bundle two in part A, my Lord, trial bundle three of part A erm, comprises expert evidence from two accountants er one from each side and my Lord the er evidence of the erm plaintiff's accountant is that of Mr whose report appears in this bundle and the defendant's . This is B 1 is it? I'm sorry. B 1 This is er part A bundle three. Does it say part A bundle three upon it? Thank you. Yes, thank you. Well that's, that's part A no part B. It's part A bundle three. That's it. Yes. There is a report from Mr from Peat Marwick who is the plaintiff's expert and there is then a report from Mr from Coopers and Lybrand who is er the defendant's expert. Erm, both erm experts are to give evidence before and my Lord included in this bundle with their reports are the documents to which either one or both of these experts have in guard when preparing their reports. Er, my Lord you will see that there are cash flow forecasts which relate to the business er back statements for the plaintiffs er and then there are documents and papers which are referred to in Mr report and finally on the final page of the index there are the principal sources of information for Mr report. My Lord for convenience sake so that everyone can refer immediately to both documents when the experts are giving evidence, they are all in the expert bundle. Thank you. Well then er there is the documentation which is er entitled part B and part B which is also er contained in three files one, two and three, comprises what are essentially all the relevant documentary er evidence, which is arranged chronologically and events run, as your Lordship will see in due course, from approximately nineteen, mid nineteen eighty five through to the end of nineteen eighty six, beginning of nineteen eighty seven in the . My Lord erm, just to tell your Lordship what the scope of the bundle is. Bundle one er starts in er, in fact in nineteen eighty three, nineteen eighty four with documents which deal with the er first plaintiff previous employment and his general financial situation before then turning to nineteen eighty five and to the events that led up to his purchase of the business around which this litigation centres, in September of nineteen eighty five and the documents in that first one will go up to mid October in nineteen eighty five. They continue then in bundle two from er mid October to mid August nineteen eighty six and the final bundle takes the picture up to the end of the relevant matters in this case er in the early part of nineteen eighty seven after the business was re-sold by the plaintiffs at a loss. if I can er start first of all with the pleadings bundle and with the statement of claim which erm er sets out all the er upon which the plaintiffs and your Lordship will see from paragraph one that this claims relate to the purchase by the plaintiff of a lease of a restaurant and wine bar business at and er it is alleged that the defendants were retained by the plaintiffs to advise them in relation to that transaction in early September of nineteen eighty five and that the contract between them er contained the usual implied required for the defendant to exercise or deal with the proper and care in relation to their conduct of the transaction and er to the advice given to the plaintiffs throughout. And my Lord the fact that their retainer and the existence of those implying terms are admitted in the amended statement which starts on page thirty eight of the bundle. My Lord on page three of the pleadings bundle My my pleadings bundle isn't paged, but er I'm sorry my Lord. I said my pleadings bundle isn't paged. Oh I'm sorry my Lord then. But erm, no doubt we can put that right. have difficulties but we can certainly provide you with a er numbered bundle. see that er paragraph three of the statement of claims sets out the history of the transaction a and pleads the relevant facts. My Lord by way of facts the first named plaintiff Mr is now er fifty eight years of age and he and his wife live in Brentwood er both are named as plaintiffs because their joint monies were expended in the purchase of the, this business and they were both parties to the purchase erm but it is clear that Mr in fact did all the negotiations for the purchase and the planning and the running of this business and he is er the prime witness on behalf of the plaintiff. He's a man who erm is qualified in the field of computer sciences and if your Lordship will hear has worked throughout his life in the fields of computers, banking and er in March of nineteen eighty five he left employment with a company known as Data Logic Limited where he had been employed as a banking consultant and decided at that stage er on a change of career erm and he was looking principally to acquire a wine bar, restaurant, country house hotel, something of that nature and er you will hear that after some early disappointments in the earlier part of nineteen eighty five when deals that er were on the horizon for premises in Oxfordshire and then in Chichester erm in early September the plaintiffs er saw and liked the wine bar in and offered the price of, the asking price of seventy five thousand pounds with stock er which was accepted. it is clear from the statement of claim that the er plaintiffs retained the defendants from about the ninth of September to act in relation to the purchase of this wine bar which was then known as er the plaintiffs were obtaining finance from the National Westminster Bank in order to purchase this business and the plaintiff Mr had been engaged in long standing discussions with his bank from the earlier part of nineteen eighty five with a view to er agreeing financing facilities for the purchase of the various opportunities that preven present themselves and er he will say and that he makes clear in his witness statement erm that he certainly had understood that from these negotiations the National Westminster Bank were prepared to provide the financing that he required to run this business. Now on the seventeenth of September Mr met Peter on the defendant's firm er for the first time at his office, where they had er a general discussion about the business and about what needed to be done in order to secure it and er the plaintiffs at that stage told Peter that there should be er no problems over finance as he understood the bank were willing to assist and at that stage he wanted to move as quickly as possible to exchange contracts on the business erm, for two reasons. Principally there were at that time other interested parties in the premises er and also erm Mr saw it as essential er that er they were in and running the business er well before the time of the Christmas trade which was rapidly approaching then, then it being late August and er he wanted to make sure that they were in in in time for them to be able to take advantage of those bookings that they anticipated. The meeting of the seventeenth of September at the defendants offices is admitted by the defendant erm, but there is no admission as to what was said at the meeting. Now er on the Friday of that week, the twentieth of September my Lord, erm Peter wrote a letter to Mr er dealing with the matters related to the preliminary enquiries and so the documents from the vendors solicitors they have pleaded in the statement of claim er that there was no er reference to or discussion of conditions in the contract of sale and in particular no reference to condition twenty two two, a national condition of sale which appears in paragraph three two of the statement of claim and which was a condition which er gave the purchaser the right to the contract in the event of the non-completion by the vendor after the service of a special notice to complete. Er the er facts set out in that paragraph are admitted by the defendant er in relation to that letter. My Lord the er case moves on there over the page now to the twenty fourth of September and on that day Mr was notified erm by his bank on the telephone that head office had approved the finance proposal in principal and as a result of that Mr then telephone Peter , the defendant, told him that the financing for this deal had been approved in principal and Mr asked Mr to provide a bankers draft of some seven and a half thousand pounds in order to enable exchange to take place as a matter of urgency. The matters obviously moved fairly rapidly because the parties were then almost ready to exchange contracts. On Wednesday, the following day, the twenty fifth of September, there was then a a meeting between both the plaintiffs and Mr at the defendant's offices when the contract for sale was signed by both plaintiffs. The bank draft was er erm and it appeared that at that stage Mr was told by the er by Mr that the landlord's consent to the assignment of this lease erm, had still not be obtained. That is admitted it, the defendants also erm that Mr had told them that he, the bank had approved the loan facilities an and that he wanted to move quickly to er exchange of contracts. The plaintiff's case is that despite the difficulty with the landlord's consent at the time the contracts were signed, it was made clear to them by Mr at this stage that that ought to be a formality and no one anticipated to expect this. So my Lord on the twenty sixth of September, a Thursday, contracts were exchanged er and that completion date was then fixed at the eighteen of October and those facts are admitted, there is no dispute about those. And deposit was paid was it. Deposit was paid my Lord . Now my Lord it's at the beginning of October things start to go wrong in erm and as it is pleaded on the first of October er, the plaintiffs were told the, in correspondence from the bank, that the financial terms that the finances that had been approved in principal, were only going to be available if security was offered in respect of a number of properties. One of which was the property in Frinton which was owned jointly by Mr and his step mother who was an elderly lady who was then residing in that er property and er around that time on the first of October Mr er telephoned Mr and er told him about that but at that time, was not anticipating that there would be an difficulties about the security on Frinton for these he had always, added his case, made it perfectly clear to the man at the National Westminster Bank with whom he was dealing, Mr that that property was not a property which er could er be offered as security because of the joint ownership and er while in conversation with the bank he understood that this letter had been sent and Mrs had been on holiday and that it was simply oversight on the part of the bank at this stage and that all would well after Mrs returned, which was expected in two weeks time. That, my Lord, the matter moves on to the fifteenth of October on which day er the plaintiff together with Mr attended Richmond Magistrates Court and obtained a protection order from the justices in relation to the premises and then on the sixteenth of October erm this was the day when things started to go very badly wrong for the plaintiff because Mr by now had returned from his holiday and come back cautiously, he apparently attended after his holiday and on this day Mr was told that, by Mrs that it was not possible to proceed with the financial er dealings that had been agreed between them unless the Frinton property was offered as security. Now at this stage er it is the plaintiff's case that Mr er considered that this caused major financial problems, because the property at Frinton was simply not one that was open to him to offer as security, it was clear that the bank would now as he saw it, on the deal that he understood that he'd struck and he knew that without the bank's help he would not be able to er proceed with this purchase and operate he business in the way he had wished to. How, how much was the bank going to provide. My Lord the started sum of money originally, sixty thousand pounds was the total loan and there were further overdraught facilities and and it's the plaintiff's case that without it it was simply not going to be manageable and as a result of that having thought carefully about erm, position it is his case that he rang Peter , told him that there were major problems in the financing of the deal and asked him if he could get him out of the contract because the finance he anticipated was no longer going to be available and it was his case that Peter advised him that there was no way out because contracts had been exchanged, er Mr was told very clearly that he was committed legally now to the deal and that he'd better try and rearrange some finances since clearly they were moving towards er the completion date. Well that's since denied by the defendant and that is a factual, major factual dispute which is obviously what you'll have to decide. My Lord the er plaintiff Mr er telephoned the National Westminster Bank the following day in order to er make an appointment to discuss the finances further and an appointment was made for the twenty second of October. Now on the Friday, the eighteenth of October, er Peter telephoned the plaintiff's home to speak to Mr erm but on this occasion he spoke to his assistant June and er, she was someone who at this stage was involved in the planning and the running of the business together with acting very much as his personal assistant and Mr had a conversation with June on the telephone in which he told her that he had received a letter from the solicitors which indicated that they had not yet, er, the landlords er licence to assign had not yet been given. It is admitted that there was er such a letter and er on this occasion er Miss evidence is that having heard that the landlords consent for the assignment still hadn't been obtained, asked Mr again whether it was possible in view of that, er to withdraw from the contract and er it is case that again Mr repeated the advice he'd given to Mr two days earlier and told her that it was not possible and that again is denied. On the same day, the eighteenth of October, Mr came back and spoke to Miss about this telephone call and he rang Peter in the afternoon of that Friday and he asked again if it was possible to withdraw because of the landlord's failure to consent to the er assignment and again er after what will er be described as a fairly easy discussion between the plaintiff and er Mr , er he was told very clearly that it was not possible for him to withdraw, contracts had been exchanged and he was advised that what the landlords er failure to consent did was in fact er provide Mr with more breathing space in order to obtain proper funding and re-arrange his finances er, that again is denied. My Lord the er plaintiff's case is that as a result of the advice that he was given by Mr er it was clear to him that he had no way out of this contract, that he was committed to it and that he had no choice but to proceed with the matter and there was then er further discussion on the telephone on this day, Friday, between Mr and Mr to where they were going here and Mr said he would now write to the plaintiff setting out what his options were to him and the letter than was sent by Mr was dated the twenty second of October and the letter, the relevant terms of this letter are set out in a statement of claim expressing at paragraph three eleven of this statement saying and of course er that is admitted by the er defendant. Your Lordship er will see from paragraph three eleven that what the letter er says is as we discussed on the telephone, the advantage of the landlord's objection is that it gives you time to put your finances in order, if the licence was forthcoming now you would be obliged to complete the transaction which at this stage you are unable to do. The courses of action open to you following letter are as follows. One, application could be made to the court that Mr the landlord is unreasonably withholding consent to the lease, if the court finds that this is in fact the case they will permit the assignment of the lease to you, not withstanding the landlord's objection. If such application was to be made to the court I feel that further references to your business acumen would have to be supplied beforehand. Two, the could proceed without the landlord's licence, it would then be up to the landlord to apply to the court to have the lease forfeited when you could arrange the defence that you were a reasonable tenant and as such the assignment should have been allowed to permit this course of action but of course you are using bank money as well as your own and the bank would be unhappy to lend money in a situation where there was a possibility, albeit a slight, that the lease would be forfeited. Three, you could arrange payment of the deposit as requested, possibly for a certain period of time and possibly for a smaller amount than demanded, this would no doubt by in the process of the licence. Four, you could do nothing at all and leave any course of action to the solicitors comfortable then you should be using their best endeavours to obtain the licence. Now at about the time that that letter was written on the twenty second of October er Mr had the meeting at the National Westminster Bank that had been arranged between himself and a Mrs and it is clear from er this meeting that the bank would no longer er, given that the Frinton property was not to be offered as security, prepared to offer the sum, the substantial sums that they had originally agreed to do and they were now only prepared to offer very much smaller sums and the plaintiff's case is that the only way that they were going to be able to proceed to complete on this matter was er by selling their homes, their family home at and it is the plaintiff's case, certainly in relation to er the losses that they have sustained as a result of the breach of contract, alleged in this case, that er if they had not been forced to go ahead to complete on this deal they would not have been required to sell their family home. the bank were prepared to pay for the business to be purchase only on condition that the home, that the family home was then sold and the proceeds were given straight to the bank, so with that eighty thousand pounds of equity in the property and the purchase fund for the business was about twenty five thousand pounds. Now at that stage my Lord Mr er telephoned Mr on the afternoon of the twenty second of October and it's his case that he explained what had happened at the meeting of the bank to him and er asked him again, in view of the fact that was having to sell him home, if it was possible to withdraw from the contract and it is the plaintiff's case that he pointed out to Mr er quite definitely and quite clearly on the telephone, on this day, er that without er the funding that he had required to run this business er he could only see that this was going to be potentially disastrous for him er and once again, my Lord as he said this was a fairly heated conversation and er the plaintiff was told by Mr once again that there was no way out for him and he should now concentrate all his efforts on achieving completion, er and once again we were . My Lord er in paragraph three fourteen of the statement of claim there is an important fact er which is a fact that is admitted by the defendant which is this that had the defendant on the plaintiff's behalf taken the opportunity which was open to the plaintiff by virtue of national condition twenty two which should say and served a special notice to complete upon the vendors on about the eighteenth or the twenty second of October, the contract would in fact have been rescinded on the thirteenth or the nineteenth of November nineteen eighty five and the plaintiff would therefore have been able to get out of the contract and that, as I say, is admitted in the amended dissent. What is denied by the defendant and what is the issue of trial is that they deny that they were ever instructed by Mr er to save such a measure or that it would have been appropriate to serve them or that at any stage Mr ever asked to be advised on any way open to him to get out of the contract er as alleged. It is the defendant's case that the plaintiff was at all times, pushing to proceed as a matter of urgency on the deal. So as I say there is clearly a substantial er factual dispute between the parties as to what was said on these relevant telephone conversations. Now my Lord as is er then made clear in a statement of claim paragraph three fifteen erm between the twenty third of October and about the twenty second of November the plaintiff then acting upon the advice of Peter that it was not possible to withdraw on this contract, did endeavour to complete upon the deal as soon as possible, very much with the timing in his mind and eventually after some toing and froing which er will be demonstrated in the course of the evidence, agreement was reached with the landlord for his consent to the assignment to be given er on condition that there was payment of some advance rent by the plaintiff. That was done and completion actually took place is pleaded as the twenty second of November, the er defendants admit completion took place on or about the twenty fifth of November. So it appears that completion was around that time although the date is not er, is not certain. My Lord er, those are the facts which er form the background to the allegations of breach of contract with negligence that are named in paragraph four and five of the statement of claim. My Lord the paragraph four of statement of claim contains the allegations of breach of contract and paragraph five makes effectively exactly the same allegations but under the heading of negligence in breach of the deal of the care owed to the plaintiffs by the defendant. Now there are two areas where it is alleged that the defendants were in breach of their professional duty to exercise skill and care in advising the plaintiffs throughout their handling of this transaction. Firstly, it is alleged that there was a failure to advise the plaintiff er before the contracts for this business were exchanged, as to the necessity for ensuring that there was adequate finance to er complete the purchase granted on terms that the plaintiff could meet and which were set out clearly in a letter of offer from the bank and there was a failure to advise the plaintiffs as to the risk of relying upon oral offers of financing from the bank. It is, it has been pleaded at various points throughout paragraph three in reciting the history, that at the various meetings between Peter and Mr that no advice of this nature was given and it is the plaintiff's case that failure to give advice of this nature, even if they did not ask for it, which they did not, was a breach of the professional duty owed to them by the defendant. My Lord it is pleaded as being a matter of er common practice amongst solicitors in this kind of situation er for such advice to be given and my Lord er if you turn to the folio of their particulars erm which were given I think it's the final book, what are called the voluntary further and better particulars which in fact were the final particulars er given towards the end of the bundle of documents. This is this is further and better particulars we're just finding the document in the bundle. We undoubtedly your Lordship because er I'll be referring to er one or two other parts of the further and better . Thank you. It's page eighty two my Lord. and on page er eighty two the erm plaintiffs were after perhaps in matters which it is alleged the defendant should have appertained relating to the financing of this transaction, prior to exchanging contracts and the base of the claim is that as set out in the on page eighty two that the defendants should have appertained whether the plaintiffs had a defined source of funds upon terms which the plaintiffs were able to meet. This they did not do and they should have ascertained by sticking writing into the National Westminster Bank to confirm that sufficient funds were available for the completion of the proposed transaction and that the terms upon which this finance was to be made available had been agreed. My Lord the defence admit that no such advice was given to the plaintiff but they deny that they were under any duty er to give such advice and it is pleaded in the that er the defendants will rely upon the fact that Mr er held himself out to be er an experienced man of business and as such it was not necessary on their part to advise him upon the adequacy and arrangements for the financing of the operation. My Lord that is in dispute, it is in dispute firstly that in fact as a matter of fact, Mr had ever held himself out to be an experienced man er of business, that Peter believed him to be as such, er and in any event, even if he was to seem as such it is the plaintiff's case that there was still a duty upon the solicitor in that situation. Well the solicitors couldn't very have written to the, to the bank could they? As it is alleged here. Well my Lord it would be the plaintiff's case . If they had done the bank would have written back and said mind your own business. Well, my Lord, the plaintiff's case would be that had the solicitor ascertained from the plaintiff that it was alright for him to just check with the bank this could easily have been done, and if the bank had given authority by the plaintiff for . So really it's understood in these allegations that you're saying that the solicitors should have invited your client to provide them with the authority to to write to the bank. Yes, after. And get independent independent confirmation from the bank, independently from their own client. Either that my Lord or, er as it's pleaded in in the alternative, should have advised the plaintiff to do that, to get that confirmation in writing and in any event, even if it is alleged as the defendant say that the er that Mr is an experienced man of business and both these plaintiffs were purchasing the business, er and Mrs it is the plaintiff's case was clearly entitled to that advice in addition. Well that is the first area er in which it is alleged the breach of duty on the part of the defendant. The second area is the failure to advise the plaintiff as to their right to rescission of the contract in the event of the landlord's licence not being obtained and the vendor being unable to complete. My Lord the plaintiff's case, as you can appreciate, is that Mr had very clearly, on several occasions in mid October, er requested a way out of this contract there was a way out er under the terms of the contract by service of special notice to complete erm and yet he had been told that there was no way that they could withdraw from the contract. Er, the plaintiff's case is that there was a duty to advise them of the opportunity er which arose, from the refusal of the landlords to grant a licence for assignment erm and that their failure er to er give that er advice was in breach of duty and my Lord on page eighty five of the pleadings summary er page eighty five my Lord again er in answer to the the request for what advise it is alleged the defendant should give the plaintiff on the twenty second of October nineteen ninety five, at the top of the page. The answer is that the advice that should have been given in the circumstances that prevailed on that date was, that if the plaintiffs wished to ignore the contract then they were entitled to serve a completion notice which because the vendor was unable to obtain that would have meant that the vendor would be unable to comply with the completion notice and accordingly the contract would have come to an end. Now my Lord the defendants say of course, that they were never asked by the plaintiff to get him out of the contract so that the duty er never arose. But they also say in the alternative that that since the plaintiffs themselves were at this time by mid to late October of nineteen eighty five, not ready or able to complete it would have been improper erm for the defendant to advise the plaintiffs to serve a special notice to complete and my Lord the question that therefore arises er whether, even if that were correct, er and it's not admitted that it is, that exonerates the defendants from given the advice er and whether they should still have advised the plaintiff erm of the opportunity which was open to him, that the plaintiff could if necessary take that course himself or be advised to go er elsewhere and be advised independently is er this is, this the point of the matter which he regarded as improper and was not willing to do it on the plaintiff's behalf. The case of the plaintiff is that he should still have been told and advised about the er availability of this provision, particularly when he was clearly er fearful of the financial consequences to him of completing this and when he was expressing those fears forcefully er to Mr . My Lord er obviously all the allegations of breach of contract and negligence are denied and er in paragraph six of the statement of claim on page nine. The plaintiffs claim that they suffered loss and damage as a result of the defendants breach of contract er my Lord erm essentially having completed on this purchase they then tried er to run the business financially and in accordance with the terms of the lease, erm but it's all been the plaintiff's evidence that right from the start erm he was well prepared that there was insufficient working capital and insufficient funds er to run this business properly and efficiently and indeed shortly after purchasing it advice was sought about er re-sale and er if your Lordship looks at page eighty eight of the pleadings bundle which twenty one the plaintiff's case on page eighty eight, the top of the page my Lord. It is said that the plaintiffs endeavoured to run the business because of the negligent advice received by them from Mr on the twenty second of October the plaintiffs were unable to withdraw from the contract. They therefore faced no option other than to make a go of the business. The alternative was either not to commence running the business or to cease running the business shortly after completion which would have meant in either case that the landlord would foreclose on the lease and the plaintiff's investment in the business would have been entirely lost. Faced with that dilemma the plaintiffs chose to endeavour to run the business to an early sale and that is what they did my Lord and er the premises were put back on the market er in the early part of nineteen eighty six and er it is pleaded that er in in paragraph six statement of claim, that in May er a buyer came forward but that sale did not go ahead er because there were unreasonable delays on the part of the purchaser erm and er the deal fell through but then again in July er after the business had ceased trading, another buyer was found and then there was a lengthy period of negotiations at the conclusion of which the sale price was reduced because at that stage the plaintiff's landlord was going to increase the rent er and the plaintiffs were at that stage under threat of forfeiture and eventually contracts were exchanged on the sixth of November nineteen eighty six the sale price being eighty one thousand five hundred and er completion was on the fifth of December nineteen eighty six. My Lord the er plaintiffs allege that they suffered considerable losses as a result of er their completion of er the purchase of this business. Their case is that if they had been properly and correctly advised as they were entitled to be under the contract, they would not have proceeded to exchange or to completion. If they had been advised as to the necessity for clear offers in writing with terms set out from the bank, their case is that they would have taken that advice, they would have waited for the bank offer and if and when it had not been suitable for them they would not have exchanged and their case is also that er once things had gone er very badly wrong and they wanted to get out of the contract if they had been advised as to the way out er then er they would have been er of that, they would have served notice and they would have got out of the contract. Their case is that they were effectively forced to er complete unwillingly without the or the finance to make a go of the business and they suffered the losses which are claimed er set out in heading form initially on page sixty two of the pleadings bundle in further and better particulars. and your Lordship'll see that erm figures are there set out which represent the losses incurred during the trading during that year from er November to December nineteen eighty five nineteen eighty six. The loss on the sale of the business er various selling purchased expenses, loss of the profit, potential profit on their home,, the cost of borrowing er loss of earnings of the plaintiffs, loss on surrender of insurance policies er and er then some unspecified sums relating to pension and credit worthiness and ill health and loss of business My Lord those er headings are taken from and dealt with in er, much more detail in the report prepared by the expert's accountant Mr for the er plaintiffs which is of course in the erm bundle C the third bundle. Sorry, bundle three, part A. My Lord er again on page eighty one of the pleadings bundle the er plaintiff set out erm in their answer to request number nine on page eighty one what they say er about what happened to their business. On page eighty one, as at the twenty fifth of September nineteen eighty five the plaintiffs did not have any confirmed offer of finance, thus they were unable to achieve completion unless the bank offered the finance in accordance with the telephone conversation of the twenty fourth. The plaintiffs were ultimately only able to complete on the basis of the terms subsequently offered by the bank which were financially disadva disadvantageous and effectively deprived the business of any chance of surviving because of the lack of operating capital and er many of the losses which are set out on page sixty two erm are based on that intention and are dealt with er in full This is what sort of business a w wine bar did you tell me? Sorry my Lord. What sort of business was it? It was a wine bar and restaurant. And restaurant. Yes. My Lord er more detail about the nature of the losses which were incurred appear on erm page sixty seven of the further and better particulars. Sixty seven of the pleadings bundle which are the further and better particulars this year and you can see that er looking back to page sixty six, what the plaintiffs have been asked to state was to give particulars of the change in financial position which had been outlined to Mr on the telephone and er your Lordship will see first of all that in answer eighty little A, there is a reference to er a letter of the twenty seventh of February nineteen ninety two which was a letter from the plaintiff's solicitors to the defendant's solicitors which, this is been incorporating in the front or ought to be in the bible, erm I don't think it has been but there are copies if I can hand your Lordship it was missed out in error I am sorry . My Lord will see that there are details given erm as to the er financial requirements of the plaintiff. So what is said is this. Our client's initial requirements were for a loan of eighty six thousand pounds being sixty thousand pounds for the business and a further twenty six thousand pounds on house mortgage to cover any monies the bank had required our client to provide overdraught facilities were also required. The bank provided finance for our client to exchange contracts, this the deposit, and then subsequently the attempt to obtain full security over their proposed lendings by including security over a property at Frinton on Sea which had been left in part only to our client upon his father's death. Our client had it in telephone conversation with the bank on ninth of September only proceeded with the proposed purchase on the express understanding that Frinton property was not to be included particularly as his father's companion a Mrs eighty years of age, was residing in the property and owned a half share of it. Furthermore our client had given Mrs through solicitors an undertaking at the time of the transfer of his late fathers half share interest to himself, that he would not use the property for purposes of charges being placed upon it. The bank were aware of this. In order to comply with the directions being given by Mr to our client to rearrange his finances, your client's letter in May er a buyer came forward but that sale did not go ahead in which to put your finances in order. Our client met his bankers on twenty second of October and was only able to obtain funding as follows. The bank would give him facilities to purchase the business to the extent of seventy five thousand pounds if he agreed to sell his property at and from the proceeds of sale to repay the bridging facility in its entirety and they would provide a sixteen thousand pounds business loan and overdraught facilities to be reduced by five thousand pounds within a few days and if the six thousand pounds rent deposit was not required then the business loan would be reduced to ten thousand pounds. The bank finally agreed to loan sixteen thousand pounds for the business plus overdraught facilities and a further nine thousand pounds secured on our client's home repayable over five years, any further mortgage over a future was to be arranged elsewhere and my Lord er will hear that in fact the, having the sale of their home having been completed on the fifth of December the plaintiffs were then homeless for some three months living with their daughter until such times as they were able to arrange a mortgage on their present property with the Halifax. and er move into that new home. And er the er those figures are really set out again er repeated in the further and better particulars which appear on page sixty seven and page sixty eight. They're really setting out in in great detail what is contained in that letter. My Lord the er defendants deny erm that er if there was any breach of contract or negligent on their part as that caused the losses which are claimed and also er do not admit any of the losses or damage er I consider the damage which was claimed by the plaintiffs. My Lord erm there are er in my submission er a likely there were to be five key issues for determination in a court of this trial. That the first issue erm were the defendants in breach of contract in failing to, as is admitted, a unitary stat unitary authority and County Hall is made in a unitary stat unitary authority and County Hall is made into a be put to be theirs. provided from the bank. Er, the second issue is did the plaintiff, Mr ask Peter to get him out of the contract between exchange and completion er that is clearly in dispute but if he did then the further issue is this, were the defendants in breach of contract in failing to advise the plaintiffs at a stage as to the effects of national condition of sale twenty two two and a way out of the contract which was open to him. Er, four er if the plaintiffs had been so advised, would they have taken er that way out thereby the contract and fifthly, if the defendants er were in breach of contract and your Lordship decides all those questions in the plaintiff's favour then er what is the basis on which they are to be awarded damages. My Lord the er plaintiff's case is that you must er appertain now the actual situation of these plaintiffs and compare it with the situation that would have prevailed if the breaching of contract alleged, had not occurred. Now the case . The damages I suppose might be different, depending which er what kind of breach you succeed on. Yes I think that may be right my Lord, indeed er if we succeed on the way out, get get out of the contract point then of course the plaintiff's case is that they would have taken that advice and would not have entered into the contract a and therefore on that basis they are entitled to be compensated on the basis that all the losses they unnecessarily incurred by having, being forced to complete, should be recoverable, subject to er litigation of loss and . But that's the basis on which they erm content er it is also their case that . Well, what would that damage be in er? Well my Lord in my submission it is all those items which are claimed, the trading losses of having to run the business erm operating at a loss for that trading year er the loss on resale. The loss of profit because they had been compelled to sell their home in order to complete on the purchase and the cost of borrowing and er the ancillary matters that are set out in the claim and dealt with by the accountant. It is the plaintiff's case that all those losses were losses they would not have incurred erm had there been no breach of contract. Because had there been no breach, the contract would never have been entered into in the first place and the er plaintiffs will rely upon that erm recent court appeal decision between and er against where the court of appeal indicated that if you are dealing with a case where the plaintiff was saying had there been no breach of contract, this is a transaction we would never have entered in to then the plaintiffs are entitled to recover compensation on that basis. Erm, on the basis that they should be put back into the position that they would have been had there been no breach. Now erm I understand that, talking to my learned friend Mr this morning, that erm he will be contending for a different approach as to the basis of compensation. Namely, he will be inviting your Lordship to er look at whether or not the business the plaintiff's would have failed in any event er because it is the defendants case relying er extensively upon the opinion of their expert Mr er that even if the plaintiffs had had the finances which were originally anticipated and had completed the deal in accordance with that, the probabilities are that this business would have failed in any event and that they would have incurred the losses they did er so I anticipate there is going to be a dispute between us as to the basis in which your Lordship is to determine compensation in this case. Er, my Lord I have to say that as far as the expert evidence from the accountant is concerned it is only Mr who has er offered an opinion, expressed an opinion upon that issue. The plaintiff's accountant Mr confines himself to quantifying the heads of loss and doesn't speak with reference to the er allegations that are made in any way. It is erm alleged, it is to be alleged as I understand it by the er defendant relying on Mr opinion that the business would have failed in any event er because of the plaintiff's general lack of experience in this trade and what is described as a lack of financial expertise or caution er to which the availability of extra money as envisaged in the original proposal, would have made absolutely no difference. Er, my Lord er I my observations on that issue at this point be that erm it seems to be the defence case that for the purposes of er the defendants avoiding a duty to advise the plaintiffs as to the need for clear financial offers their terms from the bank, Mr was an experienced man of business and er had considerable financial acumen for the purposes of considering er whether under the banks original proposal for finance he would have been successful, they would be trading as a financial disaster. Er my Lord er the second observation I make about erm Mr opinion erm and the facts upon which it is based is that his opinion is hotly disputed er, not least because of what it would be submitted is the highly speculative nature of this enterprise er, when you are being asked to consider with the benefit of hindsight, whether or not a business entered into some eighty years ago, was likely to have failed and er it is also an exercise which in my submission is entirely irrelevant if your Lordship would find the basis of compensation which I contend for is the one because the logic of not having to become involved in any investigation of whether or not this business would probably have been unsuccessful in any event. erm My Lord there is one other matter erm, which we invite your Lordship to deal with now erm, a at this point before the case proceeds further and that is this. My Lord there was an an order on the summons for directions erm in August of nineteen ninety erm, provided for experts report to be disclosed with expert evidence to be limited witnesses or each party. My Lord in addition to erm the evidence from an expert accountant dealing with er the plaintiff had obtained expert opinion erm on the extent of the duty owed by the defendant in this sort of situation. It is an expert er report prepared by a partner of the solicitors firms who has since qualifying been dealing primarily with commercial and residential conveyancing . Erm, my Lord the defendant's solicitors were told in correspondence that we would be calling a conveyancing expert. This report was disclosed in accordance with the direction of the trial on the twenty sixth of September of this year er the defendant had not obtained er a report themselves. Erm, that report is not in the bundle of documents before your lordship at present because we were notified er er as as the sixteenth of November er that thetted, a unitary stat unitary authority and County Hall is What is a conveyancing expert? My Lord the er Solicitor who conducts conveyancing. My Lord the the report deals with the extent of the duties which are by solicitors engaged in commercial conveyancing,er the duties that is practice and is adopted by a majority of solicitors in this field, which relates to the extent of the duty to to financial security and to advise as to er the availability if asked, of the way out of the contract and the meaning of and interpretation of the national agreement of sale. Now my Lord the report er in my submission goes to the issues which are at the heart of this . The rule i in my submission is that expert evidence is admissible er where there are matters at issue before the court which require expertise for the analysis and these criteria to be satisfied in my submission are that first of all the evidence must be relevant, and secondly the witness must be competent to give it. Ar are you saying that the defendant was, or ought to have been a conveyancing expert himself? Mr My Lord Mr was a conveyancing, the defendants firm are a a firm which specialise in commercial conveyancing matters and Mr was an experienced solicitor within that field and therefore the report addresses the duties to be owed by somebody working in that field and advising clients as to what the extent of the duty is. Er, and my Lord er in my submission there is er no good reason why your Lordship should not receive that in evidence. The reports from solicitors dealing with with matters of what are professional standards and duties in this particular field are er regularly accepted in evidence in these courts in order to determine those matters. My Lord we are not dealing here er with erm general principals. For example where it is alleged that a solicitor . Are you seeking to introduce er some solicitors practice rules of some kind? Well, there's nothing, as I understand it there is nothing in the Law Society guidelines but there are certainly references in the professional conduct guidelines which Mr has referred to in the course of this report er which referred to the extent of solicitors in the situation. And that's all part of the the evidence, the expert evidence that he will give. And this, are the prof professional conduct guidelines in dispute as they apply here? Well my Lord, all we know is that erm when the report was served on the defendant it then came through court they were going to have to call Mr and then last week it was suggested er that er not only did they not agree but that they were going to try to prevent it being admitted in evidence. I know no further erm than that. Er, but it may your Lordship if you hear what my learned friend's objections are to er the report going in. Yes. My Lord er the basis of this objection is that this evidence is not admissible under a sign of authority and erm I wonder if I could start er my submission on this by referring to er on evidence. In er chapter enth of November er that thetted, a unitary stat uni witnesses are admissible what if or experience. The principles as civil proceedings and the topic is now run by it goes on and that mainly deals with criminal material and then one can pick it up at paragraph thirty two er seventeen when er the authors addressed themselves to to civil proceedings er and that er following passage deals with effects of the civil evidence act and the relevant procedures and then moving on my Lord to er to in fact, thirty two thirty nine on page eighty hundred and twenty nine the expert has furnished the judge or jury with the necessary scientific criteria for testing the accuracy of her conclusion so that to enable the judge or jury to perform their own independent judgement by the application of these criteria to the facts proved in evidence. That er goes on in relation to er criminal matters again and er er paragraph three hundred and thi , thirty three forty one er it picks up the subject of expert testament, namely er science, art, trade, technical terms, handwriting, foreign law er the ensuing pages in fact deal with that and then at paragraph thirty two fifty one er in the er section of subjects which experts may not testify on. The first is what we that passage, the questions of destruction whether of domestic, domestic or . He should instruct particular terms of the . The instructions that is the general rule . For example when foreign documents relating to professional conduct the opinions of experts not sealable on disputes of policy in professional to etiquette to elucidate the rules of a particular profession, English law, morals and probability of human nature and all our opinions of law is that which English law though they may prove the proper costs of particular legal proceedings, neither expert or ordinary witnesses may give their opinions upon matters of legal or moral obligations or general human nature or the manner in which other persons would probably act in the interests and my Lord this director points at the policy it is in fact the authority admits which is Mr Justice then was. This is a report at nineteen thirty nine the chancery reports one chancery at page three hundred and eighty four. This was a solicitors pick it up and my Lord so you can, you can see what the dispute was. Lot nineteen sixty one,an option to purchase your honour for three hundred and eighty five which at that time was at a rate of nine hundred pounds a year and they went to this friend of the firm of solicitors and there of the document which doubly signed and was dated March twenty four nineteen sixty one but my consideration one pounds penny by thereby granted to for the purchasing of . The option is expressed and remained effective for ten years. for one pound and unfortunately as he the option of the contract and on a number of occasions question whether he should exercise the option. On seventeenth of August nineteen sixty seven object of defeating the option and having discovered through the result of his solicitors that the option had not been registered, sold and been paid the farm five hundred pounds and after the sale by registering the option under the land chartered act and on the sixth of October nineteen sixty seventeen could have exercised the option and neither or his wife complied with the notice and on March twenty eighth nineteen sixty eight wife died and on the twenty seventh of January nineteen seventy commenced proceedings against his father against his mother's executors the declaration of the option was . On the eighth of February of nineteen seventy two died and on the eleventh of May seventy three died and the plaintiff's continued the action but the action failed so he was awarded damages from the sale of his estate and on the twenty first of July nineteen seventy two commenced an action against solicitors for negligence or breach of professional duty in detecting to register the option necessity of so doing. limitation point er it was held at one of general or continuing duty obtain an independent firm of solicitors to the option on every occasion on which they were consulted as to a possible exercise on such occasions whether in fact be issued it goes on. was imposed on the defendant client existed between the defendants were therefore liable to be taught. The defendant contract for their negligence is omitting to register this option before the and just before that submission I wish to make. Lord may I pick it up page four hundred and two erm at lesson B er there's a plea of breach of duty, this new plea does however raise the issue not of the original, not apparent on the original fee then what is the scope of the solicitor's duty that part of a particular aspect of a problem. Is he entitled to confine himself to the particular matters for which he is retained to advise or was he to consider all the circumstances affecting the underlying data including hypothetical circumstances or risks which attention directed from one and not specifically sought. as I've heard the evidence of a number of practising solicitors and Mr committed himself . Mr no doubt of what is said to be the divine preference for called three. I must say that I doubt the value as it seems to me become accustomed in cases of this type. It is then the legal duty in any situation must I think the questions for the court, clearly there's not practice so accepted standards of conduct as laid down by the professional institute . Evidence of that had thought to be at . But evidence really amounts to no more than expression of the opinion by a particular practitioner of what he thinks that he would have done if he had been paid hypothetically without the benefit of hindsight the position of the defendant, with a little while the evidence of the witness is due, what in the matter of law the solicitor's duty was in the particular circumstances of the case, I should have thought, being a solicitor the very question which the functions, to decide. the authority if I may refer you to it is the recent report of the British er Columbia Supreme Court erm courtesy of professional negligence er in the updating section it's a a . Just, just one moment. Yes. My Lord British Columbia Supreme Court erm and er photocopied . Erm, my Lord I don't think it's necessary to go through the rather complicated headland potentially gives you though I can see it from the er. What the erm give me the reference again. My Lord yes, nineteen ninety two, forty six B C L R open bracket two little d closed brackets, one six four. Er my Lord it's rather a complicated of transaction and the the essential heading this case was that he failed to advise in relation to title er the person who goes from with respect to a land transaction he's entitled to expect that the lawyer investigates the state of entitlement to arrange the matter and to explain to the trial exactly what that is, what it is that is portrayed by the state of the title. The defendants were negligent in breach of duty of not carrying out of that part of that duty. And my Lord a short part I wish to refer you to and that is on page a hundred and seventy nine which is er the section when the judge was dealing with er the law of duty and the judge Mr Justice said during the trial I express some concern to what evidence has been called it is not necessary to refer to lawyers professional liability by . The issue is whether or not the defendant's lawyer should have told his client about the state of the title and the risks arising therefrom and I didn't have any difficulty in coming to the conclusion on that matter without the aid of expert evidence and erm the judge then goes on to deal with the authorities. My Lord er, the final part of er my submission on Well that doesn't take us very much further does it That particular case I don't know who this judge is judge what court is this in? British Columbia Supreme Court my Lord. It is approved er approval by er the editors of which is the the technical or professional negligence . Yes. My Lord there is a final part of our submission on on this is because I don't know whether your Lordship has a copy of the report this is the report of the fact that My Lord erm what I wish to refer you to if I may, is erm that paragraph three one of the report which is erm that solicitors and er he instructed himself er from the law society who told him that the law society in paragraph three page five, don't issue any specific directional guidance duty of care in relation to the plaintiffs transaction, the Law Society view obligation to be have to be considered on the basis of and he then goes on from there to to depart from that approach to speculate as to what his approach would be erm But he goes on, he goes on and the body of his evidence my Lord is to speculate as to what he would have done and what Mr should have done in the circumstances of this er case and reference is made to the professional conduct guide in paragraph three two. guide but what we do dispute is the relevance that erm this solicitor is seeking to give . So what we say on on the basis of Mr Justice er victory Nat West and Midland bank and the er authority in er that this evidence is not in this report, doesn't assist you and what is relevant is What, what evidence? The evidence of what's in the guide to professional conduct. We would not object to the guide my Lord but what we would object to don't object to the guide my Lord but what we do object to is is what this er solicitor would have done in relation to it it then takes away the acid from the joint. And can you see it will not cure rheumaticky knees, but it gets you rid of the acid for the time being. If you don't get rid of acid you know what it does to even metal, if it sits on metal it eats through it, so you imagine what it does to your bones when it sits on them. And this is why with forms of arthritis you get deformity and you get n er b the joint won't, won't use. So can you see it is vital that all of you keep your circulation going right and a good idea is to start it in bed so that before you get out and put weight on your limbs And the same with the rest of your body get your circulation going, get the joints doing a bit of movement and before you get up and give them the added job of bearing your weight. Now if you're a rheumatism person you will know that you have difficulty getting out of bed in the morning unless you do something, and this is the way of doing it, move in the bed before, get the circulation going so it moves the acid so that you can move. And don't let it deform the joints cos it does eventually. Why I'm very positive about this I am a rheumatoid arthritis person, have been since I oh I don't know happen to be in my fifties I think. And I have been years on Bold injections and all the rest of it, and I know from experience you get, you deal with it, it doesn't cure the disease but can you see you have a way of dealing with it, of coping with it, of helping yourself er c er do things and therefore you can You've mastered it, it hasn't mastered you. It, if it's left it will deform joints. That hand of mine won't go the right shape although I've tried, I knew it would deform joints and so I put all my efforts into spreading them the opposite way, but I haven't won on that one, can you see? Because it's affected the bone, once the bone is affected you can't get it right, cos the bone's done. So it's very important that you do What of course you don't see is wh what it will have looked like if you have n't. N well I, I, I had, why I was so positive about it, I had an uncle who had it very badly and as a child I was very aware of his hands, they were quite inhuman looking, they were that shape, and you know everything he did he, he had to that and that's remained in my mind that when I got it I though I won't have the hands like that so I r I w I go, I went to sleep, I still do it, every night, spread my hands, the last thing I think about, spread the hands. Now it affects all the joints as well but somehow or other I felt that that was the thing that stuck in my mind from seeing him. And that one which eventually o originally was the worst hand has, has got the less er damage to it. So again you see it is up to you to do, deal with it. I think as long as you've got some way of dealing with things you can live with them. Cos you're, it's positive again, you're in charge and not it. Now suppleness is the most important, but when you've got that you have to go for something else before you even can grow the stamina, and that is strength, the power of the muscle to produce the body action, resist gravity and work against resistance. Y the power comes from muscle contraction, it's needed for movement, management, balance and agility and for lifting and handling objects. It needs regular graded notice, progressive practice to build and maintain the skill. Care must be taken to start from each individual's capability. Because your friend can do some fantastic things it doesn't mean to say your muscles will, you could be in trouble. You must start, you forget there where he is or she is, but you've got to start from your actual capacity otherwise you're in danger in that. Now er how powerful are your muscles? What will they do? Have you thought about them lately, about how strong are they? Just let's have a little test on that one. sit on the table . You're sitting in your chair, just lift up one knee will you, and the other one. And repeat that, right. Now he'll put it up and hold it. Now the muscles are not r working to lift it, they're working to hold it against gravity, gravity saying go on let it go. And can you see by about now the muscles are beginning to feel. Again the same thing, there's contraction in that muscle which stops the blood flowing which builds the acid and therefore it begins to hurt, let it go. And again you see if you increase the load, can you take up both, back pick them up again. We all know how easy that is to do, and if I say hold it we find a few more, right let it go. Can you see it requires more in a static holding, this is building muscle power and you have to do things, and muscle can build it if, it c if you asked that those legs to do that every day they would get better at it, because what the body would then do would be build in more muscle fibre to cope with the job, so can you see it, what you ask the body to do, you've got to ask it the right amount, not too much or else you damage and you've got to ask it regularly and gradually increase it if you want to improve the muscle power. Now again if you take a good look round the retired people in town there is , you just sit down on one of those benches in town and watch people for a bit, and you'll see that a lot of them are deteriorating physically and that is making them, making it difficult for them to get about socially, shopping- wise and so on. And again can you see what will happen. If it is getting difficult you can see what's going to happen, they're going to think oh well I won't go to town today, I'll go to the corner shop and manage. In other words they're going to ask their body to do less and less and less. And there was a, a book, I always regret not pho photostatting it, where one of the people who write on health er made the point that you start with the full page in the book, and the outer band of it were all pictures of the world, and then it was erm a particular sort of location in a town, and then it was a house and garden and then it was a room in a house. Can you see what it says? Yeah. And that happens gradually, you know the person concerned isn't always aware unless they're very very, have some way of telling. When you retire, you see at the moment in your job you will know how you cope with the job so if the job's in your, round your house or if the job's ins in, in your work. Erm how are you going to know when you retire whether your physical ability is deteriorating? Only if you've got something to measure it by. You see, erm Appraisal. see your skills aren't going to be wasted. You're going to need them in your retirement. Er Do we send our to you? chart. You see speed is one thing, how do you know whether you're getting slower? Er i this is why it's important that you mix with people, that you get out and about, because if you find that everybody else is, is getting up the hill faster than you and everybody else is crossing the roads quicker than you and all the rest of it, it should tell you something, now I mean I don't even want to go into competition but I think it is good occasionally to see if you can walk as fast as that eighteen year old in front of you. Can you keep up with up her? I mean you probably beat her with a lot of the eighteen year olds you see. But can you see, have some idea how long does it take you to go some, to one place to another that you go regularly. Are you taking more time as you go along? I mean there's no reason why you shouldn't take longer if you're intending to take longer because you want to enjoy the, the view. Er are you feeling in the mood to take it easy? Er sometimes I, I'm, I get a lot, a lot of things on, I have at the moment, an awful lot of things on, so everything is you know getting in a p a tight path and fast, so I deliberately thoroughly enjoy taking my dog and wandering along in the park. And I'm going as slow as I can go and I'm just taking everything in, and I'm unwinding, I'm relaxing mentally and physically as I do it because that's what I feel I need at the moment, and having that ability is good. But on the other hand I don't want to wake up with horror one day when I find that I've lost all my physical abilities because I wasn't taking too much care of them and observing. Again another thing too, is that boosting your ego side, if you s if you set yourself a little bit of a target and you can manage it er can you run up the hill? Can you still run? Can you balance? Can you get over er fences un er er across a ditch? I c I, I tell this story cos I think it illustrates it very much, I expect most of you have er if you haven't been you've heard of Dale in Derbyshire, and it's this river with a, a lovely walk either side of the river, you walk along the side and then you come to the point where there's a bend in the river and there's these gorgeous great enormous stepping stones. And I went about two years ago on a gorgeous and sunny morning like one of the first of the season, you know, and the place was packed. And I had t spent a fascinating time standing near the stepping stones and looking at people. Because you know they came up, they were full of the joys of spring, looking around, chatting to their friends and then they r started looking at the stepping stone. And you knew what they were thinking, they were trying to weigh up whether they dare go across the stepping stones and you could tell by their faces and what they did of course when they decided no it was beyond them and they'd play safe and they'd go back the same way. But can you see the people who came to the stepping stones and couldn't go across and had to go back the way they'd already come wouldn't go back with a very their ego wouldn't have b been boosted very high. But the ones who'd found, you know, wondered about the stepping stones and then had plucked up their courage and then had got across safely, can you see how they would have walked down the other side? Oh all their friends what they'd done. I bet . They had met a challenge and they'd succeeded, indeed we all need them. And what challenges are you going to meet you see to boost your ego, because if you don't boost it you're going to be in trouble. So this is why you've got to have it. You'd be stupid to go across the stepping stones if you didn't have the power to jump from one to the other, pretty big, but the, so are the distances between them and at that time of the year the river was pretty high too and r rather boisterous, so it wouldn't be very pleasant if you had fallen in, but you've got to have that but you've also got to have stamina as you said, but it wouldn't have been any fun if you'd got halfway across and your stamina had run out, then fire brigade called out, the fire brigade or something . So you need to have the ability to keep going but you can't get stamina till you've previously got s the, the strength in the muscles to do it. Er the other thing you've got to have and very essentially, is coordination,got to cross those stepping stones if you couldn't coordinate the action right, now this is vitally important this coordination, it's the skilful interaction of the five senses, the brain, the nerves and the muscles, acting with the right degree of effort and timing. You don't get your timing right and you'd be in the river, don't get the effort right and you'd still be in the river wouldn't you? This type of work, movement works closely with memorization in many cases, these skills are essential for daily living, they need regular daily practice in a great variety of situations. Now if you don't have coordination and you're, then you're in dire trouble. You think of some of the erm handicapped people that you know, that's what they lack in, their movements are erratic and disjointed, they don't have the fine coordination so life is very difficult then for them to manage. Coordination at its highest, when we develop it, we say we've developed skills, and if you've done that can you see you acquired skills in quite a lot of situations, and again that's an area where you'll get a great deal of satisfaction. I mean if you're absolutely marvellous at painting and produce gorgeous pictures and so forth that everybody else admires, not only gives you something to do but boosts again your ego and your satisfaction but you need very good coordination to do anything which requires the skill. On the other hand, can you see if coordination gets er deteriorates in any way you're going to be cut off from an awful lot of things you now, you might have been marvellous at embroidery, it gave you a lot of satisfaction but if your co coordination starts to go then the quality of what you can do will satisfy you, will dissatisfy you, make you feel annoyed. So again we do need to practise coordination it needs to have lots of practice, it is of course frequently affected by certain types of illnesses er and, and again that may be inevitable but again the more past experience you've acquired and the more, the greater your ability to fight back, even though you're fighting a losing battle if it's an illness, can you see it's going to delay the difficult bit the difficult part longer, you're going to be able to cope. That's important and of course when you lose, really lose your powers of coordination then you lose the ability to look after yourself, you can't dress yourself, you can't feed yourself and when that happens it's into a home and geriatric ward and be looked after. So it, it is a very vital part. Then comes your stamina that you've mentioned, the ability to maintain prolonged physical and mental effort, notice it's also mental, it's not just physical. The staying power having endurance again you say with the feeling of the mind as well as the, the body. Keeping going without distress. It needs regular, graded, progressive training to build up the muscle power and gradually improve cardiac output. That's your ability for your heartbeat and your heart to get the oxygen it requires from your lungs and to keep going, cos if that d h doesn't happen all the rest just goes. Er it needs skilled coordination and rhythm to help build the, keep the action going, developing stamina helps us to cope with work and leisure without undue tiredness. So that you can enjoy your hobbies and, and, and, and you know, you can take on hobbies that do, do require quite a lot from you, if you've got the stamina. Also very useful in emer in emergencies, you think of a, do you remember the ferry disaster? Th the one that was so bad, where a man used his back for other people to escape by? Now people th people there, those people would have been in dire trouble if there hadn't been somebody who could do that. Now I always think of that as stamina cos I think that must have been a terrific stamina thing. He must have felt it and he must have suffered afterwards from it I would imagine, but he had, he had those qualifications, he had those abilities and he used them for a . Now we never know, especially in this day and age, what situation we're going to be in, and would your physical ability save you? Would it be able to even go further and save other people? The, you may get by very nicely on very moderate physical ability in ordinary every day life because you can kind of order what you're going to let yourself in for. But if you're in an emergency situ situation, you don't know and would you be equal to it, would you have some reserve you could fall on? And it is important to think about that. And then we haven't finished yet. We just ask on that on? What Yeah. what are the best exercises then or the best form of exercise to build up some ticker to build up the heart ? Erm again, this is why er er jogging at th at this point became so er popular if you remember everyb er a little while, few years ago everybody was rushing out jogging and there are still people who are doing it. Now again it's very difficult to say because jogging will not be any good to you unless you're in the right condition to do jogging and unless you've got the right conditions to jog. For instance the, the doctors in the hospitals had a lot of work because people rushed into jogging who weren't fit for it or weren't doing it with the right conditions. You should, you, you're advised not to jog on tarmac because the surface is hard and jars and so if you do a lot of it can you see and if, particularly if your joints are not equal to it, then you set up a lot of trouble. Erm it, again if you'd only do things like jogging it will build up, if you've got the right conditions, your heart y y your heart and lung ability, but in order to have this stamina that we're talking about you've got to have power. Now jogging doesn't give power to the big muscles of the body, it doesn't do that so again you'd you'd have to be doing something which, that built up the power. Er again if you're in certain situations you need coordin very very good coordination and timing and again just jogging would not do that. Er you need to have a much more all round variety of exercise to build up the different things. Does that answer it for you or not? A specific exercise is aimed at specific Yes. muscles Muscles yes, you've got to er if you're going to build power into muscles you've got to, you've got to give the load to those particular muscles and you've got to do it at the right load. This is the whole things behind weight training, it's not a thing I've ever done it cos it I would find that boring, it's er too mechanical for me. But erm the idea is you give a certain load, a reasonable load, to a muscle and it will cope with that then you increase the load and it increases the muscle power to deal with the increased load. This is how these men make themselves into all those freak things where muscles bulge all over the place, they look as if they're about to, I'm not quite sure, they always remind of erm those balloons, you know, that pop off beach balls, they look a bit like that. But that's how they build their muscles you see, it's all very scientific and they and they're very dedicated and they know how they do it. No the, the principle of it is good, we could all do with a bit more muscle building than we have. But you've got to do the right kind of exercise to get the effect er and again when you come to stamina it's got to be, you've got to have a bit of the all round to go with the stamina. Erm and again when I you need also, very much, to have the all round development, the ability to be nimble, speedy and capable of dealing with the unexpected, and a series of movements demanding and challenging on weight transference and balance performed with speed and various use of space. Can you see how variable it has to be, because you've got about everything in there. Er it needs a safe level of suppleness, strength, stamina and coordination. It calls for confidence and courage. You notice where that is, courage, that'll be partly in you Deciding to go on the stepping stones. Yes. Partly in you, you know, that, that, that, that likes a challenge and you like to step up to things that are difficult and you can summon up your courage very easily and oth some people have more difficulty. But when mastered it gives a great feeling of exhilaration and achievement, in other words your ego's going to get built if you're good on that. But you'd be a fool to try and get this agility if you haven't got those safe levels suppleness, strength, stamina and coordination cos you'd be asking for trouble. So How how do you rate cycling and swimming? Erm swimming is recommended as about the most all round exercise because it certainly does your heart and lungs, it does all the muscles of the body, it, according to what you do in the water of course, I mean if you just go and stand there it does nothing er but if you are actually swimming and you are using the different strokes and so forth, it does use power-wise all the main muscles of the body. And it certainly does the heart and lungs and it certainly has erm that feeling that you can wriggle and move around in the water, so it certainly gives you this feeling of agility as well. Er this is why swimming's been taken up by quite a lot, there are retir classes for people who've retired and can't swim. There's quite a lot of those being arranged, that's quite a good way of doing it. Erm what was the other one? Cycling. Cycling. Cycling. Well I thought that cycling built power in the leg muscles, it's, I mean it ought to didn't it? But I have, I, I've ever since I've retired I've run a performing dance group of men and women erm who do it for a hobby. And er I have in there one of the great cyclist, he cycles all over the country, he's gone from John O' Groats down the other way and across the opposite way, he cycles everywhere, he never goes in car he always cycles everywhere he goes. And he's got the weakest legs in my dance group. Now I can't account for that, because he ought to have strong ones didn't he, if he did all that stuff there? I think the a I think the thing is is that I, we can't mentally get into realize how to use his body weight which comes from using your feet and getting and the l and your legs and so forth. But in theory cycling shouldn't give you very strong leg muscles. And certainly do your heart and lungs. I don't know that is does much for your shoulders and arms and so forth, but can you see that's a that's, that's what it is. Some things will give all round, but others won't. I mean if you say you dance, it depends on how you dance whether it does everything for you, because some are very concerned with keeping the body rather aloof, like ballet i i i minimize it, you try to pretend you don't have any body weight in ballet, you control it. Er and therefore it is usually very good foot and leg work and the line of the body er but it's not, it wouldn't be ever so good at agility, because it is concerned with holding, with holding your body weight from gravity. Now to be agile you've got to be able to let your body give to gravity and then pull away from gravity, alternating very quickly er that gives you agility. So again there aren't many things that do complete, swimming I think I far as I can see is the only one that does, but then again that depends on how you use the swimming, it, it just, just cos you bathes every week doesn't necessarily mean that it does do it for you, it depends what you do, okay? Right now can you see you've got an awful lot there to be working on, now I've got one more. Here it's called awareness, in dance call it sensitivity, sensitivity to what is happening around us with the ability to react sometimes at great speed. It calls for physical and mental reaction and is sometimes affected for good or bad by our emotions. You see if you are very angry about something, about a situation you know that when you're in that anger it's so strong that you wouldn't notice if something happened right under your nose because your anger is u occupying your, your brain and your senses. Erm on the other hand if you s in some situations er i i your anger would, would, could make you acutely aware of something, more acutely aware than the other, so it depends. it needs a well trained body, a flexible mind and feelings that can be analyzed and used. It requires lots of experience of working with other people in varied situations. But that sensitivity in my book is what is going to give you a tremendous amount of pleasure in your retirement. If you've got it to use and you plan your retirement is, isn't that if what you're hoping to do? Go places and do things? Can not super sensitiv super sensitivity work both ways? You can ex experience great happiness and great Yeah. because of the sensitivity. So it's really your attitude as to what you make of it. Mm. And again you see, er it's personal choice in retirement and you've got to choose it to suit your, you. Because you are an individual. You've got a personality, a character which was partly what you were born with, partly what life has developed in you, as somebody described it e we, we are the sum total of the luggage we've acquired. Erm but again you see you could, you would, you wouldn't want to be a person who was only aware of all the good things and the bright things and the light things and the enjoyable things and were never aware of the others. Er do you want to feel that in your retirement, you experience the full range of emotions? Would you find that something you wanted, that you were able to experience the full range of emotions? Or would you want to shy away from everything that was unpleasant or difficult? Or would you be one of those people who only ever saw the worst of everything, because they are around aren't they? Erm so they only pick up and they thoroughly enjoy disaster. Er and they're very sensitive to that and they pick it up and make the most of it. Er they're the real to work with, er but can you see the choice? It's going to, to really be what you want, what you make of it. Isn't it true though that Pardon? if you haven't sensed sorrow you can't really sense joy to its . This is the point isn't it? There's, there's part of life that, that you've been missing if you haven't had some experience somewhere, and as you say er some of the most beautiful things in life move you to tears. Bertrand Russell said the prerequisite of happiness is to be without it. Yes. If you think about that, that, that's true isn't it? Until you've known loss you've never known what you really have got. Well I think that I, I think most of us when you get to this to, well not to my age, to your ages, we've experienced that I think. Yes I think you, you, you'd agree on that wouldn't you? So erm where does this leaves us? Have, have you got those physical abilities that we talked about? Have you got any idea in your retirement about how you're going to keep yourself so that your body is not going to be a handicap to you? Because that's really what you want isn't it? You want your body to get about as easily as possible and be able to do the things that your mind seizes on that you want to, to have a go at and to make a reasonable job of it. Now again you see i there's a million ways that you can do it. But I think another important thing is to weigh up yourself, it stems from you, what are you like? You see lots of people find that they w they do best when they join a class and they go to the class, it's there every week and th or maybe more than once a week and that keeps them going because they are, they're expected, it's a definite booking, and that's it and they can go that way. Other people would hate that, it's too restricting and er er and again it is, if you think about it, because if you've got a, a regular date and you're retired and something nice and exciting comes up, and that's right in the middle of your, it bashes into your regular date, so then you have to say do I go or do I do or, or don't I? And you can do that, you can go. But you see, I'm finishing my dance group, this year it's doing its final perfor performance at Clarendon College if any of you are interested on May the fourth and fifteenth er er er there. Now I decided, cos I'm the director of it, that we finish this year. There were various factors that came into making this decision but one of the things is I'm heartily sick that I have never been able to go away on holiday in the autumn ever in my life. Cos I was in teaching so if you know where you were in the autumn, I leave Clarendon College and what do I do? I have to work every Wednesday night, every week and one Sunday a month in the dance school. So I can't go away in the autumn now cos that's just when everybody's start you know raring to go and wanting to get started on next year's programme. So I still haven't been in the autumn, so one of my reasons for finishing is, is so I can go on holiday in the autumn. I go on holiday other times but you know there is a bit, something about the autumn isn't there? Which is a bit different and I'd like to see it, that's just one of my things, but again when you're in, going into retirement I think you've got to think about this, I mean I went, nobody twisted my arm, I went into that situation and I've enjoyed it for a great many years, but now I'm thinking I'd, before I, it's too late I want to have a, a l a fling in autumn as it were. So I'm going to have a, a go at that. Erm but you will be in that position, you may be so dedicated about something that you want to do like I did, I thoroughly enjoyed it it's given me a great deal of pleasure, I've worked with about a hundred different people over the years that have been in my dance group, all ages all personalities, we've worked with some fantastic music which er erm we've had to interpret. Erm we er you know had a situation you so er we've had moments when you get very irritated with one another because what you're trying to do isn't succeeding and because you always blame the other folk. You keep looking at me then. Thank goodness But er can you see you've got to make up your mind what it is, it's not necessarily going to be easy. And how are you going to live this, this, this er physical activity er again I certainly had plenty of mental through this dance group as well as the physical. There you go again! You shouldn't have then should you? You're right. Er and I might say you're not the only one I've got my eye on. on somebody else but er no comment. Erm but again you have got to decide what it is you want out of your retirement because you're the boss and it's no good moaning when you're into your retirement that it doesn't suit you because you've planned it, you've made the decisions and therefore it's up to you to alter whatever you don't like. Now I know that's always dead simple I mean erm one of, one of our directors is a great wine maker isn't he? Yes. Er or is it, it's beer as well I think, he does all the lot. And all his working life his mind was set on when he retired, instead of down doing it, you know, late at night he was going to be able to get up in the morning and do it. And there he was straight away as he retired into the kitchen and setting all his stuff out and his wife walked in, what do you think you're doing? Out of this kitchen! So again can you see you have other people to consider if you've partners, but that's one of the difficulties of having a partner, but then again think, if you don't have a partner, that's worse cos you've nobody to communicate with, nobody to shout at, nobody to organize or organize you, er nobody ready made to go out with, you've got it all to do yourself because your number one requirement when you're left on your own is to get the company and the activity, whereas if you, if you are er living with a person then at least a certain amount of that is ready to hand. But again people will say, don't go hand in glove everywhere with one another No never, I mean some people go around just like twins don't they? Er that can be bad because if, if only from the point of view that when you get back you've got nothing to talk about because they were there and saw and did it all you see. And it limits your conversation a bit. Er but again if you er something happens to them you're more in a, you've no other leads to your life and so you're left on your own. Now about getting physical activity, I, I can't say that I can give your a er er a foolproof method because it will depend upon you. And how it fits into your life, I have the feeling that er if I could fix it so that I could do it sort of in the house, by the way, I could, I could do certain things and I could stick to them, and I would see that I'd do them. And er to a certain extent I do that, for instance people pay a lot of money to go and buy what they call boxes, they're quite expensive. And the idea is that you step up and down on those and that's your exercise, well you can do that on the bottom of your stirs for nothing. So the bottom stair is a in most houses they're ideal for doing that. Now the idea behind that is that it builds up and keeps in trim the muscles of the feet and ankles and legs, which is going to be what gets you about because you realize your retirement is going to be as good as your legs. If your legs pack up on you or are difficult then you, it will limit where you can go. Isn't it awful to think your legs decide what your retirement's going to be, but they do, more or less, so that if you th if you think a if you've ever had any trouble with them you'll realize, people say, you know, would you, we're going out for the day, you coming? And immediately if you've got leg trouble it's well where are you going? What will we be doing? Will there be much walking? Will it be up hills. You know and immediately can you see, you've asked him all these questions you can see what a pain in the neck you are to all the people you've asked these questions of. And of course it then, in the end you have to say oh well I'd like to but I don't think my legs are equal to it. So they can be the deciding factor in what your programme's going to be, so it pays to keep them in good trim. Now you can do that on the step, in fact don't go from a house to a bungalow, you give up your best form of exercise, now I know people say ooh well when you get older you can't get up and down. You can get up and down. Who w somebody said you find another way, somebody said that ear earlier on in the talk. When my rheumatoid arthritis was very bad it has been very bad and very chronic, and it still can be some days, erm I had more ways of getting up and down those stairs and I got up and down, but I had to invent ways to do it. Quite interesting I could give you a much gr a greater variety of ways up and down stairs than probably anybody. But there is a way, you can manage you can do it and the important thing is that it's your body that's doing it, that your body that's keeping the exercise going, so that when the actual pain disappears, when you've got rid of the acid, your joints still work and your muscles are still good. And if you don't do that, once you let them go you've had it, so it is very important. And again you see people fa you've got to keep your arms strong, how do you get in and out of the bath at the moment? Don't suppose you've even bothered to think about it. But there will come a time when you may have to think about it. Now how do you do it? Just stand up and get out. You just stand up and get out, but h what happens if and when something happens with your legs and you can't do that, how would get out then? Kneel down, turn around and kneel down . That would depend upon your knee joints wouldn't it? Can you see? Er now what are you, you're going to pull something, what're you going to pull on with? Feet? Well again, what if they aren't good enough? You see, do you ever, have you ever tried, do you know how you're, how good your muscle power is in your shoulders and arms? Have you ever pulled yourself up with your arms? Put all your weight on your hands and arms. It's no good you see waiting and thinking er and then finding you can't get out and you do need your arms to pull you out, but then if it's no good, be no good if there's no power, they can't do it. And then I know a lot people who now in retirement do not have a bath, because they can't be confident enough at getting out of a bath, so they say oh well I manage with a shower. Now you can manage with a shower, I mean it's, it's efficient as regards er keeping you er clean, but can you, to men there's a different pleasure in having a shower, I enjoy both I would hate to h to be limited to one. But er I, I have to make quite sure that my arms will take my weight, as near as one can. Erm again when I have bad days with these wrists they just give way, and this is not a mental thing at all, I mean I could be holding a, a glass or a cup in my hand or a, a, a dish of something for that matter, and the er the nerves just relax the muscle and out it goes, it's n n I don't know it's going to happen, but it can happen. Usually with something light not heavy. Pardon? Often with something light not heavy. Oh o oh yes it doesn't have to be something heavy No. th you er I mean if it were very heavy you'd almost sort of be prepared for it to go, but you know when you're s s standing with a, something quite light, and you might have been standing with it a little while in your hand, and then suddenly the hand goes and can't you see that's ve that's very upsetting, it makes you not very confident. Erm but again you've got to try and think of ways of coping with any difficulties that you've got. It's no good sitting down and moaning and, and being depressed and saying well I won't do that I won't do that. Now how good's your balance? Now we have man er we have illnesses which effect balance of course and your blood pressure's one, how's your blood pressure? Had it taken? We're entitled now you know to have all sorts of things done at the doctors,coming up to the right age to be hav to be done er should be okay on that. But there is this centre which is right op on Parliament Street opposite Boots and you can go in there and all these leaflets that I've got come from there, you can get those any time, they also have all the timetables, they also have all, have all the other information and two ladies sitting there, voluntary, er who will phone up and get you any information on any subject that you want. So if you've got any problem of any sort you pop in there. They will do blood pressures Tuesday and Wednesday mornings, there's a nurse there then. Erm lots of information, do, that's very convenient on Parliament Street. Er there's another one at the back of Victoria Centre, it's on the corner it's the new red brick building and that is a much more complicated more where you can go in and have your M O T done. And you can have an M O T certificate, they like you to book for those cos it takes the nurse quite a time to do you. You can walk in any time and get your blood pressure done there. Now it is important that you find out about your blood pressure, because again erm if that is, is rising it's putting your At police stations across England and Wales more than two hundred thousand people will be given cautions this year. To get a caution they'll have to admit their part in the crime but they won't have to go court. A caution doesn't mean a criminal record but it does mean the police can solve crime with the minimum of fuss. Research also suggests it discourages some people from re-offending. He's gone into Boots, he's admitted to doing the offence erm picking up some perfume from the counter in Boots, put it in the basket then placed it into his bag and walked out. What's his previous his He's previous record? He's got He's got one previous erm which actually date back to nineteen seventy seven erm for handling stolen goods. Come this way please. The best thing for this chap would be to caution him for this offence. How'd How'd do you think he'd react to that? Well he's been very remorse throughout the interview anyway he's you know he said sorry throughout and he regrets doing it now he's he couldn't understand why he did it. Cautioning was originally intended for first time young offenders and those, like this man, guilty of a minor crime. What intended to do with yourself is were going to caution you. Now what that means is that you've admitted the offence which you were arrested for which is er But more adults are now being cautioned and for more serious crime. It was the government's own guidelines three years ago which encouraged cautioning. They said cautions were acceptable for all age groups for a wide range of unspecified offences. There was no reason to limit cautions to one, prosecution should be the last resort. I want you to sign here and er the bit at the bottom does say that you admit the offence which you were er b er arrested for and then your release for custody will we'll give your your er property back and you will be released. Right. If you sign just there please. The cautioning guidelines were intended to ensure consistency among police forces, but in fact they gave chief constables wide discretion. As a result in some parts of the country you're three times more likely to be cautioned than in others . that's sealed in there, there you go sir. In some police stations we've identified criminals actually stand more chance of being cautioned than prosecuted. Follow this officer she'll show you out. Okay. For this man the ordeal of several hours in a police cell is over there 'll be no court case, no difficult explanations for his employer. All he has to cope with is his own shame. It's something for my wife which I can't afford cos I've been off sick so I thought it would be something nice for her. Can I ask you what your reaction was when you knew you were going to be cautioned and not prosecuted? Total relief. What would have been the consequences for you had you been prosecuted? Possibly the loss of my job. It's a salutary lesson for you is it? Oh certainly yeah, yeah. I'm grateful for being let off. Cautioning has advantages and not only for the offender. It saves the government more than a hundred million pounds by cutting the number of expensive court hearings, and it's a quick and easy way for the police to clear up crime. The most dramatic rise in cautioning in England and Wales has been for adult offenders. In Cheshire, according to figures obtained by Public Eye, adult cautions have nearly trebled in the last four years. In Hampshire the figures have nearly doubled. In Merseyside too the number of adult cautions has almost doubled. Overall, cautioning for all offenders, which was falling before the nineteen ninety guidelines were introduced, is now steadily increasing. Last year there were two hundred and sixteen thousand cautions given for indictable offences, those serious enough to be tried in a crown court. But under the present Home Secretary, Michael Howard, the climate is changing. I think repeated cautioning and cautioning for serious offences are completely unacceptable and I know you do to. If the Home Secretary is worried about cautioning he need look no further than Folkestone, his own constituency, and the rest of Kent. The latest Home Office figures show that Kent has the highest cautioning rate in the country. Magistrates, victims of crime, the police and even offenders agree cautioning has got out of hand. A more serious concern is the extent to which it is undermining faith in the criminal justice system. Across Kent crime rose by fifteen percent in nineteen ninety two that's more than twice the national average. Unpublished figures obtained by Public Eye show that fifty seven percent of offenders were cautioned rather than prosecuted. You stand nearly three times as much chance of getting a police caution in Kent as you do in South Wales. I'm concerned that er people are not being brought to justice. And er that er very often the criminal fraternity are looking at it as a ways and means of getting out of coming to court. These young men are known to police in the county. Some have criminal convictions, all say they have been cautioned or warned by the police several times. One of them three months ago for a violent attack. Causing grievous bodily harm to someone now you might say that's a very serious offence which you should expect to be prosecuted. it is but then again all I turned round and said the bloke that I hit, he said he didn't want to press charges, but then I thought the police can bring out their own prosecution against me but they turned round and said no he doesn't want to press charges so we'll just caution you again. You must have been very surprised that you weren't pro I was then , cos like I done his jaw in, I done his nose in and I thought this is it. I thought I'm going down this time. And they just said were caution you and I walked out of there and I started laughing. What sort of things do they say to you? Er they take you into the office, tell you to sit down, and they look at you as if you're a little schoolboy. Mm. And they say right Mr we caution you for er what ever you done next time you do it we'll take you for court for it . You just walk out the police station I run up the road I was laughing my head off. Do you think it's an encouragement also to erm go out and commit more crimes if you're cautioned? Yeah you do, you tend to go out and commit more crime because of You've been let out you've been let off really That's the buzz of it, innit really ? And you go out and do the same thing again and you're getting le let off for the same thing all the time and you think you're going to get away with it all the time. Yeah. I wouldn't say it encourages you but it sort of you know you're going to get away with it. You get one caution an and er I thought the limit was two you get t two cautions and you get took to the court. So I knew that I could go out again and get another caution, that's why I did it, really. Then if I get caught I just get a caution and that's it. What does cautioning mean to you? Nothing. You go down there they slap you on the wrist you walk away from it and go and do it again. What about if you'd received a harsher sentence? You'd think twice about doing it wouldn't you? If they like sentence me straight away for doing something like I'd think to myself is it worth it? Kent went to the top of the cautioning league under Paul , now commissioner of the Metropolitan police. When the new Chief Constable took over in March he ordered an immediate review. The result is likely to be far fewer cautions. I myself take the view that the criminal justice process generally is the appropriate way to deal with criminal offending and I'm not too happy with the idea that people who commit criminal offences should be dealt with outside the courts. Isn't it the case though that people in Kent, offenders in Kent, have become used to the idea that cautioning will be the norm? That they won't be prosecuted, at least for some minor offences? I think this is not just a problem in Kent, I think that there has been a erm an undue er move in this direction nationally, er for what ever reasons public policy was very much about keeping people out of the courts, er I suspect that this is er er a policy which is of doubtful philosophical underpinning. In Margate crime rose by twenty percent last year we found that for the victims of crime here the use of cautioning has undermined confidence in the justice system. They can get compensation only if the case goes to court. This centre for the elderly has been broken into four times in two years. All on his own little willy number one. Ooh. You poor old Many of the volunteers are pensioners themselves. The last time it suffered a break in, the intruder badly damaged a door. He was caught in the act but got off with a caution. You lot of woofers. We had been told at the time he had been in trouble before. We got a letter from the Kent constabulary to say that erm he'd been let off. And I felt absolutely horrified, devastated to think that he could have done that sort of damage and just walked away he didn't even have to pay for the damage he'd done. I was I was so angry and and I see him a out and about and when I first saw him about I could have I could have run him down. Figures we've obtained for the first three months of this year show astonishing variations in cautioning rates across Kent. In Margate for example there were far more prosecutions then cautions, the same is true in other places such as Medway and Tunbridge Wells. But in other areas, like Canterbury, offenders are more likely to be cautioned than prosecuted. The same applies to Ashford, where according to our figures the same has happened for the last three years. So how can it be that there are such enormous variations between different parts of Kent? Privately police officers have told us, decisions on cautioning can depend on how much or how little faith they have in the courts to pass adequate sentences, and on how much paper work is required for a prosecution. I would be deeply suspicious if the level of consistency were such that the figure were absolutely the same in every area because that would suggest to me that no discretion was going into the process. If if if you were talking about er high levels of variance then clearly erm they need to be addressed. It is exactly because of that level of variance and because we considered er that multiple cautioning on some occasions, I think on the figures I have examined about six percent of occasions, er were unjustifiable that we have reviewed our policy. Are you aware of other people in the area John would welcome anything that might put more criminals back in court . Well not as many, er there is the odd break in here and there but no one has had the sort of amount that I have erm He's a former chairman of the magistrates association and has spent thirty one years on the bench. He's witnessed a substantial fall in the number of offenders appearing in his Ashford court. They know we're out and they're targeting their premises. Do you reckon it's the same man ? This experience is reflected across the county where the number of criminal cases has fallen by ten percent in the last three years. He attributes part of that to the rise in cautioning. John joined other senior magistrates who told us they're concerned about cautioning. Magistrates who are unused in public at least are criticizing the police, they say their policy has gone too far. They are making decisions behind closed doors, they are making decisions erm arbitrary decisions, without the benefit of accountability to the public and that to me is the most serious er long term aspect of the increase in cautioning. You're concerned at at there being private justice not public justice? Indeed, well I d I I don't call it justice. It's private decision making. I honestly believe that this is a a a financial exercise that the government have imposed on the criminal justice system. Now I'm not opposed to cautioning, of course not, the odd one or two occasion I think it's highly effective. But it is being used I believe as a scapegoat to get the government off the hook for financial reasons. What evidence do you have from your own court about multiple cautions? Only last week, the last time I sat in court er there was an instance of one individual who had had twelve cautions in a period of eight months er he was still a youth so his name obviously can not be divulged, erm and it's not only the cautions, I wonder how many warnings he'd received as well. We as magistrates do try and be consistent in our sentencing er throughout the country, I think it's beholden on the police to be consistent in their approach to offenders, as well, and it seems quite wrong that someone in Folkestone gets away with doing something with a guy in Wigan er goes before the court. There is a a colossal amount of inconsistency er of a kind that if we were to practice such inconsistency in our courts there would be there would be absolute outcry and it's it's something of a scandal I think that er that the police and the executive generally are apparently able to get away with inconsistencies which we are not. The story of Dave is a remarkable tale of coincidence and injustice. He was coaching his local swimming team when police told him his car was being broken into. The damage amounted to two hundred and fifty pounds. those legs, go go go. It was the sixth time in a year he'd been a victim of crime, but this time the culprits, two youths, had been arrested. After a little while they got back to me and says right one's finally broken down, the seventeen year old, it took them an hour and an half, we've broke him down he's admitted he's done it. I said right, what's the situation now? They said we've got a good chance now of prosecuting 'em. Would you be willing to prosecute? I said bloody sure I'd be willing to prosecute. I'd said after all I've had done to me I said you've caught 'em, I'll prosecute. Twice a week for four months Dave would contact the police waiting for news of the court case. In the summer he was stopped by the police for overloading his builder's van. When he returned from a holiday in August he had some unwelcome news. Right, I have two letters on the side I open the first one. The first one relates to the child who broke into my car, I won't call him a child he's a bloody toerag as far as I'm concerned, who broke into my car has been given a caution, a bloody caution. Caught him with a screwdriver in his hand he's admitted he's done it and he's got let off. Ta da, don't be a naughty boy again. I open the second letter, would you please appear in court cos you were overloaded, you are being prosecuted. Well I thought if that ain't British justice I don't know what is. To get two letters in one day I is I thought it was a classic. Thank you very much, you've copped it both ends Mr The final irony, it was the same Chief Inspector who had signed both the letters he received. One of the victims we have spoken to in Kent received two letters on the same day. One informed him that the seventeen year old offender who had caused two hundred and fifty pounds worth of damage to his car had been formerly cautioned. The other letter informed the victim that he was going to be prosecuted for overloading his builder's van, he was in fact prosecuted and fined. His comment to us was British justice, that's not British justice. What do you think of that sort of situation? Erm, I would share his view. You think it was wrong that he should have been prosecuted and the person who damaged his car should not? Well I don't know th th the er the detail of the circumstances nor the matters that went into the judgement, but in the way you have explained it to me and if all those facts are as are as simple and plausible as you as you say, then yes I would agree with him. And you wouldn't want that sort of thing to happen in future? I would not. Elsewhere in the country similar views are being expressed among victims of crime where the offender was cautioned. More than two thirds of people surveyed in Gloucestershire said they were dissatisfied that the offender involved had been cautioned. Most of those said they wanted them taken to court. Three quarters said they hadn't been consulted before a caution was given, and sixty two percent of our sample thought offenders should only be entitled to one caution no matter whether the crime was committed by an adult or juvenile. The picture is different in Northamptonshire where a pioneering approach to cautioning appears to have the backing of victims and those involved in the criminal justice process. But there are fears that the government's vigorous attempts to clamp down on cautioning could mean the end to a well supported and apparently successful scheme. Here there are few of the excesses of cautioning seen in some other areas, even though prosecution is considered very much the last resort. There are certainly criteria being fulfilled which allows me to deal by means of a formal caution. Just over a third of those guilty of indictable offences are cautioned, that's around the national average and well below that in Kent. Can you sign there to indicate that you accept the formal caution then Custody officers are specially trained to handle cautions, they follow a detailed grading system which helps determine whether a caution is suitable. Points are awarded or deducted according to the impact of the crime on the victim, for example, and whether the offender is genuinely remorseful. The person's kept himself out of trouble so is it really right for us to get him back before the courts again? It well may be that erm you know with the help that er he can be referred to, they help him keep out of trouble again, for a lot longer. Okay, thanks very much so they're the new cases. Has anybody got anything The key to the approach though lies not just with the police but with the Northants diversion unit. Social workers, a history teacher and probation officers get together with the police to consider how best to deal with offenders. He says he thought the passenger was then going to hit him so then he hit him first and er I think The unit tries to keep the offenders out of court, an aim that sits uneasily with the government's new philosophy that prison and punishment work. But the unit also negotiates with offenders to try to encourage them to compensate their victims. One of the units success stories is Richard . By accepting a caution he was spared a criminal record. birthday and I'd been out, had a few drinks and that. A few too many. And I was walking past and for some silly reason I felt like putting my fist through a couple of windows. Instead of going to court he paid six hundred and fifty pounds for the damage and apologized to the shop's owner. It was quite a shock. Yeah. And then we found out that they'd actually caught you. Yeah. And you were jumping around for joy and saying Well not really, No no . Hang him hang him hang him. Well also I could think of Both victim and offender are satisfied with the way things turned out. However one problem with this reparation scheme, as it's known, is that the offender can't be forced to pay up. All of our reparation work is based on the fact that we want people to volunteer to do this work. We want them to volunteer to to pay compensation to the offen Er to the victim, because that way we know that they genuinely have concern over what they've done and they've faced up their responsibilities. They don't have to pay the the compensation, or make restitution in any way. It is entirely voluntary. In some cases though there's no victim to pay compensation to, and there are always those offenders who clearly know how to exploit the system. It's four o'clock on a Sunday afternoon. A twenty year old man has been called in for a chat with an inspector. Do you understand why you're here? Yeah. Okay, you tell me why you're here. For caution erm for carrying an offensive weapon. What I'd say to you is, don't mess up and throw away the opportunity you've been given, because if you do you'll only have yourself to blame. Whatever goes on inside, outside this man says the caution isn't a deterrent. It's not. It's just summat not to go to court innit? It's not got to court for sort of like, four or five weeks get adjourned or come up to the police station and then like get your hand slapped. Just listen to a copper sit there and talk rubbish for a few minutes. reckon if you're seen carrying a knife again, then there's only one clear alternative for you and you've got to know what that is. Do you know what the alternative would be? Custodial sentence. You're now saying that potentially you would do it again? Yeah, but if you tell them you won't, you just get a caution innit? No fine, nothing, you just get let off with it. And you're out again on the streets. So it's a bit of joke really isn't it? Yeah it is. System You know the system just suck. Sorry I sound like a right right one but it does. The system's pathetic. While such attitudes disappoint the police, officers don't find them wholly surprising. There are obviously individuals like that. Similarly there are individuals that go through the court system and are punished, that are perhaps sent to prison, and come out of prison saying it's not going to make any difference, I now know how to break into every type of car, every type of building. And they're a much more efficient criminal if you like. Isn't it demoralizing for police officers to see offenders not being prosecuted? It's very difficult for police officers who are vi visiting victims of crime every day, to see an offender apparently getting away with it. But we must look at the long term view. Our primary objective is to prevent, or reduce, re-offending. Now we know that our diversion system allows us to do that. Nationally the A Ts have see a dramatic reduction At one of their regular training days Northamptonshire magistrates are hearing about the virtues of the diversion scheme. custody. This is the the bear results In nineteen eighty three These are the converted. Here there is, unusually, judicial support for cautioning. One reason is the ninety two percent approval rating it gets from victims of crime, according to a local police survey. There are plans to expand the scheme in the county to take in more adults. Magistrates say they're worried the government's attitude to cautioning may mean an end to this local initiative. Well I think it would be disastrous. And I think governments would do well to talk to the people at the sharp end, like magistrates, who use this system, work the system, liaise with all the various components in the system and do know what they're talking about. They're appointed because they're intelligent beings and I think they should be treated as such and consulted. The new guidelines will tell the police to give no more than two cautions, except in rare circumstances, and to caution only for minor offences. This is merely the latest example of the home office overturning policies earlier pursued with such vigour. There've been five home secretaries in four years and civil servants are unclear which direction ministers will take next. One of them told me the changes they've put now are so dramatic, there might as well have been a change of government. But Michael Howard is unbowed. In the last thirty years the balance in our criminal justice system has been tilted too far in favour of the criminal and against the protection of the public. The time has come to put that right. One of the officials in charge of shaping the more liberal policies favoured by the home office in the eighties was David . Now an academic, he's alarmed at what he sees as a policy reversal on cautioning. He says it'll fail. For large numbers come into the criminal justice system unnecessarily, erm that is likely to set back the progress which was made during the nineteen eighties and er increase and reinforce criminality. How much of a danger do you think there is that we'll get yet another sea change at the home office and policies on cautioning and criminal justice generally, will be reversed again? I'm concerned about a policy which is based on er conviction and punishment. I mean the policy that er I helped er Douglas Hurd to develop in the nineteen eighties was based on prevention, consultation and cooperation, and moderate use of imprisonment. A lot of that has been set aside in substance and certainly in the attitudes and language which come from the government. The court has considered the application for bail that has been made by your solicitor, Toughening up on crime will cost millions. the new cautioning rules will put tens of thousands more in court. those with first hand experience of crime will be watching closely. You've got to bring back some deterrent to this bloody country, otherwise the next thing you'll be getting is vigilante groups, and if you get vigilante groups then this country is in a hell of a bloody state and you will have bleeding trouble. This offence for which you have been found guilty The name of the game is how can we reduce the amount of offending in this country. If cautioning could do that we'd all be right behind it. the fact is that it's not. It's not a punishment, but even the punishments are not deterring criminals either. Accordingly we propose to adjourn the matter today The home secretary may care to ponder this thought. Cautioning may have fallen into disrepute but to abandon it will mean a return to the punitive policies that this government had only recently said had failed. Accordingly you'll be remanded in custody for a period of seven days. Saint Andrew and Father Christmas. What have they got to do with our real lives, today? Do you wish your nearest and dearest happy Saint Andrew's day on the morning of the thirtieth? Yes, we're talking about traditions. Let's start with Christmas. Now we all know about the commercialization of Christmas and the pressure to spend money to give the kids the best, which often means the most expensive! Not to mention the pressure to play happy families which often leads to arguments and tears, or loneliness and depression. The point is, it never used to be like that in Scotland, Hogmanay was the main event, short and pagan and festive in a Scottish kind of way. It's not that long ago that Scots worked through Christmas, including Christmas day. So, Christmas, two months of panic before it, two months of dieting after it, tell me honestly with exactly one month to go, are you really looking forward to it? Let me put that question to the hundred women here, are you looking forward to Christmas? Button one for yes, and button two for no. And, this hundred don't share my apparent cynicism, seventy three of them are, twenty seven said no. Of those who said yes, why? What are you looking forward to? Yes? Young children. It's always a happy time with young children in the house and everybody gathers around, it's a family time for us and we enjoy it. Who else said yes. Mhm. Well my family has, is now all over the world so Christmas, give me a good excuse to sa , to tell them to come home, we need you! Who else said yes? Mhm. I love it because it's Christian and Christmas to me is basically a traditional Christian festival, and that's the part of it that I enjoy. I must admit, I do enjoy over indulging on the Christmas pudding as well! But firstly it's a, it is a special religious time. Okay. Who else? Any of the yes's? Yes? Yes, I love Christmas because family comes together. We are rather living apart now, some down South Mm. er, and er it's grand to have er the family together again. I just don't like all the hassle, or the money spent, all the food that's eaten, all the washing up! And, quite honestly I'd my family are quite happy where they are. I dislike the commercialization and the pressure to consume. I'd, I'm find it quite offensive sometimes, and particularly, I happen to work on a, a project that's to do with poverty and I'm very aware of the kind of pe pressures that that sort of consumerism can Mhm. put on people. So I dislike that. I think the other thing I dislike as pressure is to be with people and to, to be happy when actually, lots of time, I would rather just be on my own! How do you withstand the the commercial pressures and the emotional pressures, the seventy three of you who are looking forward to Christmas? Yes? Well I started when my children were quite young, and taught them that er advertisements on television were just an invitation to be ripped off. Aha. And I seem to have been fairly successful in that I've never neither I, nor Father Christmas, has ever been asked for what I would consider to be a greedy, outrageous present! That's er, so you've been a successful propagandist? I've brainwashed them, yes! Er, yes? Up there. Yes, I was very successful in that respect as well that er, my children, I taught them that just to wait till the January sales and they'd get what they wanted for half the price ! And er, also, I like the religious side of it too, I Mm, yeah. I emphasize the the true religious er, feeling of the Yeah. the occasion. There. I wanted to answer yes and no. Yes, to the fact the family gets together maybe Right. you ha , it's first time for the whole year you've seen some of them, and so on. And the other thing is, I don't like the commercialism, I think it's just Mm. gone over the top! Mm. Up there? I think a lot of people tend to find it hard to get by on a, a monthly pay packet as it is You bet! and then there's the as everyone says the commercialism coming up to Christmas it's Yeah. it's even harder to try and get by on your pay packet and to get all the Christmas presents. So, in that respect I find, I mean I'm, I'm just gonna be making my first monthly pay packet and I don't know how I'm gonna manage. Mm. Here. Yes. It's interesting the lady Mm. saying yes and a no. Mm. The reason why you say yes and no is that everybody wishes Christmas is the ideal and perfect and everybody gets together but there are so many people who are not in that position, and therefore, it emphasizes those who are not. Mhm. Beside you here. Er, I was at a a appalled recently being in in Edinburgh in the shops in the middle of September where everywhere you looked there was Christmas ball balls and Yeah. Christmas trees, and I have two small children that to try to sustain Christmas for three or four days is very difficult, to do it for three months is impossible! Well a , my kids always got a, something at Christmas not very much at times, and they looked forward to it. But, we always before Hogmanay, because we used to go out fresh Aha. fresh fruiting people, and I used to have people coming to my house Mhm. and we miss all that. It seems to have died away now. Yeah. Well I think now, in general in in Scotland th the the the drinking license has been different er Hogmanay does not exist as such because Mhm. nowadays most people have Hogmanay every weekend! No, well I mean, let's be honest today, you know, clubs, the opening of pubs in places liked Mm. and the changing of the licensing laws and I think, traditionally now more Scots enjoy Christmas better than they Mm. used to do years ago because they were working or whatever. You know, I think it is now more a traditional family time, Christmas, and you know they don't look at Hogmanay the same. Yeah. At Christmas and Hogmanay, well I'd like to go away and get outside do you know where the country because that is more Scottish, you get, that's the countryside. I wouldn't like to be stuck up in the city and have an being forced to buy people lots of Christmas presents that I just can't afford. So do you think you're inventing your own tradition, which is a perfectly time honoured and respectable thing to do, or do you think you're harking back to an old tradition or or what? Well a mixture between both cos I can er ah go back but there's lots of things I do just now that weren't about in those days. Yes? Yes? I would like to say that in these days of environmental awareness and so on, that is a kind of harking back to times when there was a mid-winter feast Mhm. it was all to do with recognising it was the middle of the winter, sun was at it's lowest and the sun would be coming back again, and maybe that's some sort of gut feeling Yeah , celebration. that you're having, and I think other people have too. Beside you. Yes, I I'd like to go back to that very traditional Hogmanay, I mean, I think that Hogmanay is very important, not the the Hogmanay that we have now where everybody gathers round a T V but it was very much erm like a I always think Hogmanay at my granny's, as do er, most of the people in in th the mining area, actually her house was a focus. And some of the things that led up to it erm,yo you had like a form of spring cleaning yo you know Mm. everybody here will be aware of that, turning the house inside out, erm, getting rid of of all the old things and I Mhm. that went out to erm making up argu , you know if you'd fallen out with somebody you had to make up with them before the bells, and in fact what my granny did was to erm to empty the fire and to relay the fire for the new year Mhm. and at ten to twelve my grandfather would take out the bucket with the old ashes and bury it in a garden, and that would burying the old year Mhm. and looking forward to a new year. And I mean, I still feel very emotional at er Hogmanay Mm. you know. I think about the year that's gone past, perhaps, people who've passed out of my life, and think of it as a new beginning, and I wish as Scots that we would hold on to it and perpetuate that tradition and get away from gathering around the T V in Hogmanay. In my tradition on a Christmas day and Hogmanay, we have the old fashioned Scottish Ceilidh Mhm. pipes playing, accordions traditional ballad song, and that is our what we do at Christmas and new year is to have the old traditional ballad song. So, are there particular ballads sung and sung, and tunes played at Christmas that, that aren't played at other times of the year? I mean, what what differentiates that kind of Ceilidh from from Well , er at Christmas time and the new year time, we can let our hair down and sing the old traditional ballads, maybe Yeah. forty or fifty verses, where other times of the year the young ones would nah sit and listen to that. But Christmas and new year is our time to let our hair down and sit our old traditional ballads. You should say who who we are? I mean I don't We are the Stewarts of Blair er, traditional ballad singers Mhm. and story tellers of Scotland. And that tradition is is unbroken and and It's it's unhurt by ti , by the passage of time? It's unbroken in our family. It's it's er, the travellers tradition and it goes back to the old tradition of the Scottish people as well Mm. which is dying out now but we are adamant to keep it alive! Mhm. Down here. I wo , I would like to go back to the days of my youth when we at Hogmanay there was usually frost and and and ice, and er we used to celebrate it partly on skates and it was great fun when you skated perhaps a mile and a half out of the town, and er er had a lovely ice festival and then we skated back and we had Where was dancing at the cross and er Where was that? That was in Straven In Straven Yes. Is there no longer frost in Straven at Hogmanay Well , I've been away for three, well th the winters aren't as hard now as they used to be. Like the summers aren't as golden? Aye . I mean is that, is that Well did you feel as if Yes? There's a sort of cosy sentimental glow coming over everyone who's talking about, it can't have been all that wonderful, all the time somehow! There was a lot of hard drinking in those Yes! days. A lot of women must have suffered in those Mm mm. same Hogmanays. Well looking ahead to to the events er a month hence, but of course this week er, on the thirtieth of this month er we will be celebrating Saint Andrews day, or will we? Do do you celebrate Saint Andrews day? Button one for yes, and button two for no. Now this is supposed to be Scotland's national day, however, amongst this hundred eighty people don't celebrate it, twenty do! The twenty who do wha wha wha what do you do, those tho those those twenty? Yes? Buy a bottle of whisky and order up a haggis. Whisky and haggis? Give him a good toast. Okay. Who else said yes? Aha. Yeah. I usu , I usually go to a St.Andrews dance about that time. Right! The la wo in front? She said not. Er, in front. I go to er a St Andrews dinner Aha. run by lasses. And does it feel like a traditional Scottish Yeah, we run it as such very much. Ah yo sa so you use the day as a, as a, as a reason to have that event? Yes. Who else? Yes? I'm a musician, so St. Andrews night is one of the, the great weeks of the year and erm invariably turns out to be male orientated, erm No! Yes it does! Oh yes it does! It's usually male singers and and all sorts of things like that. Erm, but it's a nice week. Do you think that's the reason why eighty of the people No. here said no, they weren't celebrating St. Andrews because it's actually er a male tradition? Perhaps, yes. It's also a lesser tradition, St. Andrews day. I mean the eighty of you who said no,do does St. Andrews day mean anything to you at a a at all? Yes? Why St. Andrew? I mean, I know his bones were brought to Scotland but why St. Andrew? It's celebrated in the schools with er, my school children always acknowledge it, so it may not actually be celebrated within the family as such, but it's certainly acknowledged. Yes. Well it Yeah? Well it's part of the reason that er it's not celebrated is that because it isn't a holiday. Mhm. Yep. Lots of people want it to, er suggest that it ought to be holiday but Yes. obviously not enough. Would you like it to be a holiday. Sure. Yes! And , and and what would you do to mark St. Andrews day? Would you I would do as I do now probably and go to some kind of St. Andrews night do or something like that. Yes? There. I was just going to sa , er ask the question if it's not more celebrated by expatriate Scots? Well And the rest of the world might be. you know, that's the that's Scotland. Mhm. That's it's day. There is a point You know there though isn't there, there are St. Andrews day dinner and dances held Mm. all over the world where there is a Scottish community, from Hong Kong to New York. In fact,th the New York Saint Andrews Society which exists to er I think to er, apart from to hold er meetings and er get togethers, also to assist er Scots in New York, at least that was one of it's original er, principles, they have a er a splendid dinner with all these gentlemen in full kilts, kengroms, don'tski and do's, the whole bangshoot, and and their their women folk can come and watch them from the gallery upstairs. I mean, do they? I mean, maybe maybe that's but then we have something not un er un unkin to that which is er, a traditional Burns night. Now do you go to Burns nights, do you enjoy those as a good Scottish tradition? Yes? Oh yes! Yes, but it's not so male orien orientated now as you're making it out to be. Cos Oh , I'm I'm sorry I didn't, I was sa , I was simply suggested it used to be, I mean it did originally start as a Yes. as a, as a male thing. Well many of the traditions nowadays, even the male orientated ones are depending a lot on women to upho hold them. Mhm. Yes. I think actually, there are still a few erm male only Burns suppers. I'm a singer and I have on several occasions sung at male only Burns suppers which means you get wheeled in after the meal is over, and then wheeled out again after that, which doesn't worry me at all because I'm charged exactly the same whether I'm there for three hours or twenty minutes! And er frankly, you would nah want to go to a male, a male only Burns supper, they , they they're a most un seemly looking crew by the time they've finished their dinner! Yes? I think it's a good idea that more and more schools now are having Burns suppers Mhm. both at the primary level and the secondary level, so what's coming across is not just er the fact that perhaps Burns was a womanizer, but also as a nationalist and an internationalist Mhm. and a humanitarian. Up there. Yes? Can somebody tell me here why Robert Burns is so celebrated when he was a womanizer and neglected his wife why? No! Nelly, could you explain why? I'll explain why, he was a socialist! Rabbi Burns was a socialist! That's why it's er celebrated so much! Because it's, one of his poems was, when man to man in the world ever shall grer ,gra gra , Oh Gosh! well be for all that, and and and help me God it's not happened yet! Yes? I don't really think it's good enough for Nelly to say that he was socialist because I don't think his attitudes to women Yeah! would be upheld by women in the nineties, definitely not! If you have a look at some of his poetry. A oh yes, but And I would like to make another quote if I may, he was the one that talked about Scotland being the land of cakes, and brother Scots, where the women made the cakes but he's only addressing the brother Scots. Yeah! Okay. Yet , these traditions which are kept, which have no status whatsoever, women's traditions. Down here. But the fact remains that he has written the most beautiful love songs that Here here! we have in this country. And he also had the write pornographic poetry! And th th th they're known all over the world. Mhm. There. I think if you ha , if you look at Burns in the context of the time in which he lived, he was not an exceptional drinker or an exceptional womanizer, we're a lot like him Mm. and it was the ma , it was the custom of the times, and we we we shouldn't judge somebody living in another age by Mm. the standards of our own. Mhm. I'd like to pick up something er, that Veronica touched on, you said women's traditions, now,wha what are women's traditions? Well we're all struggling to think of them I suppose, but what the one lady said over here about ballad making and story telling Mhm. maybe that's one of women's traditions, I believe they had a big part to pla play in it. By the way, the reason I ask is because th that suggests from from the phrase you used that that you see there are men's traditions and that perhaps Scottish traditions are are very, are very I see that men's traditions are held in higher esteem and some parts of women's lives, like cooking and making clothes and so on Mm. because they were women's work they were held in a Mm. mu much less esteem. These But kind of trad traditions I mean. Yes? I, I imagine that there were erm distinct women's traditions in pre-Christian times erm, and that these are lost to us now. There has been a revival of er, of some of those old fash , for instance,Beltane Mm. is, has been celebrated er more recently in Scotland and, and I I think quite successfully. Liz, you're a you've been Beltane Queen. Now, I don't know how many of you are familiar with Beltane so No. assume that none of us is and er what, what happens at a Beltane Well night? It's, certainly erm well attended, there's, you know thousands of people attend and basically it centres around erm, a fire, Beltane means erm, sacred fire and erm a procession of drummers leads me to top of a path and along Carlfa , Carlton Hill and erm fire sculptures are lit around me and I unfo ha have this great costume that I unfold in and erm process round the hill and round hill are different performers erm painted in different colours to represent different elements of nature, and finally we come to this big fire where which I light with hands, which have been sculpted and bannocks are given to the people to eat, and erm the tradition that you're supposed to cross the fire as a sort of a erm purification ceremony or or through the ashes of the fire. And you as the Beltane Queen are the, you know so , the the the, the focus of this, or one of the main focal figures, yes? Yes. That's taken,i i it refers to Pagan festivals that have happened in the past,i i I mean we've invented our own rituals as well, but based on the May Queen figure. So that that's why I'm sort of representing Mother earth. Mhm. So it's an unashamedly Pagan fertility festival? Yes. I think, I think the reason why it's women are erm somewhat cautious about talking about these Mhm. essentially sacred times Mhm. is the knowledge that if er, we'd been talking about them two hundred and fifty years ago we'd be put on trial and probably burnt to death. Well there's a grand old Scottish tradition, burning witches. And er, it's not one that's er that's currently practised, but it's not all that long ago, in in folk memory that that that women in their particularly women who had practices and rituals were seen as witches. Do do does that Mm. is that what's making you all clam up about the potential for women's traditions? Are you keeping yourselves to yourselves? Yes? Erm, well I've talked a erm about women's traditions in the sense of singing and celebrating Mhm. and so on but what about working traditions in Mhm. Scotland? You know, when I was bringing up my children in the early seventies I read about the the mergence of the new working woman, you know, how to balance a career and a home and children, and I couldn't for the life of me think what was new about this working woman! Because the women in my family and most families in Scotland had always gone out to work. Erm, this was in fact something you know, coming from, I think the feminist movement and very much a a it was quite new for middle class women to go out and work, and you know they are now aghast that they're you know, having to juggle all these things but these were traditions that had in fact, been handed down. Where I come from, erm most of the the the fish , the fishing part of the community, up until just two, three years ago we had a tradition of women's working practices which were handed down for hundreds of years from the female side. Now, most people think that you were a fish wife because you were married to a fisherman that had nothing to do with it! You were a fish wife because your mother, or your granny, or your auntie was a fish wife. It was in fact, a closed shop, and those working practices and skills were handed down from mother to daughter. I actually became interested, not so much in the women locally but my o , my own grandmother Greta , was a herring gutter from Wick I never knew her, I have one photograph of her taken with her two children, and when my children were small I used to look at this and think, how did she get away for weeks to work and follow the boats Mm. when I can't get the ho , out the house for an afternoon? Mm. Now there's a tradition. There is no job that women today where they go away together and work. And I think the practise of women working in a group like that and supporting each other has long gone. In Fisherrotha th , the women were economically independent, they had flexible working hours Mhm. they organized their own child care practices, all the things that women say they're fighting for today, has actually been done before, and done very successfully. These women gave all their money they ha , they made, till the day they were married, they handed it over to their mothers. Once they got married they never told their husbands how much they earned ever! Now that's what you call liberistic women! Definitely! And I think it's a pity we don't carry it today. Yep. Yep. Erm, in Aberdeen we had our first woman's festival in nineteen ninety and we're ready to have our second festival in nineteen ninety two. Mhm. Up there. Yes? Yes. Ah, women's tradition that eh, seems to have grown up in the workplace, or maybe it's it er, nested outside the workplace originally, is er, when a bride gets dressed up, we must all be familiar with that er, when she's going to get married and carries a chanty round about to make a collection I'm not su , I'm sure I don't know what it's called, I'm ashamed to say! But er that's definitely a woman's tradition, men don't do it. But they do other things. Well they barkening in in Aberdeen don't they? They, they chase the potential groom around and cover him in gloar. Yes? I would just like to say that women from the ethnic minorities, I'm talking about our community and, they've have children that have been born and brought up over here, we have double trouble cos we celebrate Christmas, New Year, Easter and then we uphold our own traditions and have o all our own festivals as well. But you say double trouble but I mean that's, isn't that good because you're bringing more traditions in? Do you find tha that that you're you're bringing traditions to people? Well yes, because in the schools now they've started erm some of the schools have taken up celebration,Divali which is coming up in November and erm they celebrate some of the other festivals as well. Yes? We say that er women's lives have changed, and the working patterns have changed because Mhm. we are more in the forefront. We can be managers now Mhm. erm and I wonder if our traditions have disappeared because we have had to adapt to working lives and changes in lives, and I wonder if men have held onto theirs in the face of women being a threat to them in working environments and other aspects of their life. We've infiltrated into their pubs you know how far are women gonna go? Are we really gonna take over the Burns suppers now? Esther? Erm,th I'd like to make a couple of points about traditions, women's traditions, one is particularly looking at th the oral tradition o , the tradition of poetry in Scotland, and there's a very rich tradition of Gaelic poetry, and ballad singing, as Mhm. as has been mentioned, which has been something that often has been composed by women and transmitted by women, and there's recently been an anthology published of Scottish womens poetry, I think that's a tradition and is perhaps related to second point, the fact that the material's only just becoming available to us. Mhm. That, part of th , of the issue I think about us, perhaps feeling that we don't have traditions th is that we we are still rediscovering our own history, and I think a lot of traditions grow out of historical events or historical personages. There is a rich erm, history of women in Scotland and we're only just beginning to discover that and publish that, and I think that we will establish traditions by doing that. Well we're go , we're going to a close, so let me finally ask you yo thi this,i if you wanted to reassert one Scottish tradition, either an old one or a new one,wha what would it be? What would you like to be er, a Scottish tradition which at the moment is perhaps fallen away? Yes? Up there. Just Ceilidh. Sorry? Ceilidh in the house. When yo , people just gather informally, and friends and neighbours and you make music and you sing songs, you tell stories, play instruments, do what you like, eat, drink talk. Well I haven't said,her , heard anybody say anything about the grand old tradition of switching on the television set, and I've a horrible feeling that er that th that the one day in the year when people want to get together with their families probably means switching off the television set. So I'm very grateful to you for sticking with us and getting away from your traditions for this half hour. Thanks to all of you for sharing your views. Goodbye. Microphone up here, so I don't need to speak up. That's four hundred and eighty , what we're doing right, okay, so you're doing trade at the moment in lectures, and er, Bob has asked you to collect some data on er, world trade in wheat and cotton, is that correct? Right, so erm, what's happened to, to world trade over time, say in the last century, what major changes have taken place in world trade? Is the composition of world trade still the same? Matthew? Erm, to be honest with you, I couldn't tell you. The first opportunity I got to look at this stuff is on Sunday on the library Right, anybody else want to help Matthew out? I mean are we still trading as much agricultural goods, or as much manufacturing goods as we Because as a percentage in the erm, as a percentage of trade, agriculture has gone down hasn't it? Right, okay, yeah, that's true. What's happened to trade in manufacturers That, that's increased as part of the trade in services, as a percentage of total trade, and they've increased while agriculture's beginning to decline. Okay, so, I think what we can say is that agricultural trade in absolute terms has probably risen Mm over, over the century, er, although as a proportion, agricultural trade has fallen as a proportion of total trade, right, and that reflects a number of influences. Why might er, agricultural trade increase in absolute terms? Increased productivity. Yes, okay. Anything else, I mean something fairly straightforward, nothing too tricky. Incomes increasing. Yes, incomes have risen, what else has risen? The number of people on the planet. Mm That needn't necessarily increase trade across countries just bec could possibly become er, more self sufficient. However, rising populations have been an underlying influence for increasing trade in, in all products, not just in er, agricultural products. Er, certainly in sort of, transportation technology, the easier it is to trade, the more trade there will be, and transportation technology has increased dramatically over this year, so we can now ex exploit the comparative advantage that other countries have in particular commodities, whether they be agricultural or manufacturing, quite simply because transport costs are no longer prohibitive. At one point you know, there was no point buying wheat from the United States, alright, because although they had a comparative advantage in production, the costs of transportation were prohibitive and in essence we can produce it cheaper over here than the er, the import cost of foreign produced wheat. Okay, so er, transport technology has certainly been important in er, increasing trade. As has, as have rising incomes and rising population. Okay, so what acc what may have accounted for agriculture's decline in relative terms in world trade? Erm, in undeveloped countries, the demand for food is generally Mhm And,the more er, developed countries you get, the less trade there's likely to be towards developing countries, who actually become more industrialized then the market leaders generally become more . Yes, that's right, I mean as we get wealthier, we want to consume er, more manufactured goods basically. Manufactured goods tend to have income elasticities greater than one, so when we buy more of those, then it's quite likely that we'll actually be erm, importing more of those. Right, why might we be importing more manufactured goods? What factor I mean we could become self sufficient in all our, in all our manufactured goods. What's one of the major reasons for growth in manufactures? Greater trade in manufactures. Mm then why aren't we self sufficient in, in say,manufacture manufactured goods, why do we import cars from Germany, as well as producing cars ourselves? Because of demand , because of the demand exists in the first place That's right, why, why does that demand exist, what we, what are we demanding? More variation of product. Yes, more product var variety. Alright, as we tend to, as each is observed empirically, as we, as we get wealthier, not only do we want to consume more of some good, but we want to consume different varieties of some, of some good. So what do we call simultaneous import and export of a similar good, the same good? Intra-industry trade. Yes,in intra-industry trade, alright, which is different from inter-industry trade, where we're trading food er, food for manufactures, intra-industry trade is where we simultaneously import and export what is essentially the same good. Alright, intra-industry trade has become very, very important in terms of erm, world, world trade in, in general. Right, we like to prod we like to consume different varieties. Right. But can you think of another reason why, erm, why we import erm, goods that are similar to the goods that we produce at home? It certainly is variety, sort of, if you think of that as being a demand side influencing the consumers demand more variety. Can you think of a supply side reason? What happens if you increase, say there's one country that is exporting to all countries of the world, alright, its production may well be very large therefore, er, what benefits might that have? Economies of scale. Yes, economies of scale. Alright, so manufactured goods are a class of goods in which it's easy to differentiate the product, right. Very easy, because the goods are essentially differentiated alright. Although a car, if you think of a car being a car, we know as consumers that one car is not exactly the same as another car, very easy to put power steering on the car or to put go faster stripes on a car, you can differentiate the product very, very easily, alright. As a result, and because consumers like variety, it's likely that they'll want to er, consume different types of what, what is essentially the same, the same good. Compounding that influence is the fact that economies of scale in manufacturing production, alright, are non-trivial. They're, they're important. Like we can produce, we can reduce the unit cost of car production dramatically by increasing the s increasing the size of the plant, alright, and so even if, this is one reason why we don't, why street trade has risen dramatically in manufactures, it's because in manufactures there are powerful erm, economies of scale effects, alright. And so even if we could produce Mercedes Benz over here alright, we probably wouldn't alright, unless all Mercedes Benz production were specialized over here, production has become a lot more specialized in manufacturing, where you just have large plants producing erm, the entire world production of that particular erm, product. So, you know, all erm, Toyota Corollas or something are produced in Derby and those cars made in Derby will not only satiate the U K demand, but they'll also be exported to all other countries in the world, including Japan itself. Alright, so, economies of scale are a major driving force in er, increasing erm, trade in manufactures, and most of that increased trade in manufactures is intra-industry trade. Okay, so, perhaps the other side of that coin might explain why agricultural trade, right, has declined in relative terms alright. Income elasticities of demand for food tend to be less than unity, can we differentiate agricultural products? No. No, there's just not the scope. Alright, you know, a potato is a potato is a potato. Although there are, you can differentiate the products but it's much er, much more difficult to do so, there's much less scope. The differentiation affects mostly the service factor anyway doesn't it the retail That's right, that's right, yes, how we consume these products, yes, I mean, you're right, so a potato is a potato is a potato, but if it's pre-packed, graded and washed, that is sort of intrinsically different from er, er, sort of, mouldy, scruffy old potatoes that you could buy at a greengrocer. Alright, and that, that's where most of differentiation of food products erm, has emanated from, it's not changing the food product itself, right, because it's very difficult to do that, but it's the combination of food products and marketing services that erm, characterizes the differentiation. Food commodities. Okay so,income elasticities are less than one for agriculture, whereas they're greater than one for manufacturing er, much less scope to differentiate in agricultural products, much more scope to differentiate in manufactured goods. How about economies of scale? Do you think there's, there are economies of scale in agricultural Not, erm, not in the sense that there are in manufacturing because erm, simply from the fact that, in the scale of production, isn't really erm it's not under the farmer's influence as much as manufacturing production is under the erm, certain enterprise's influence, because it's er, risky Yes. weather conditions, things like that, so he can't increase the scale of production at his own will, and therefore can't exploit the economies of scale which can give an increase in production. That's right, yes, I mean that's that's very true, and, and another point that underlines the fact economies of scale in agriculture, I mean there are there are economies of scale to a certain degree as you, as you said there, Matthew, but there's certainly not er, erm, they're not as large as the, as the economies of scale in, in manufacturing, primarily because in agriculture you effectively need land, alright, to increase erm, your output. Alright, and you, because that, that means of geo of the geographical constraint which isn't present in er, most industrial erm, plants I mean, you know, a very large, say in the plant at Toy Toyota, er, that's in Derby. It probably covers about three hundred acres, and that serves world demand for, for one, for one car. You know, three hundred acres is a fairly medium, a fairly small farm in the U K. Alright, in order to satiate the demand for wheat in the world, we'd need a farm, you know, the size of Wales, or something, or bigger than that, the size of Europe, or half the size of Europe, alright, so the, because of the, the nature of agricultural production, economies of scale just aren't, aren't there. You know, we start to run into dis-economies of scale er, much sooner. That's simply because we're, production is dependent upon physical factors rather than machinery okay. So this meant, these sort of er, theoretical reasons may well explain a change in composition of, of world trade rela agriculture's relative decline, manufacturing's relative rise. I mean, I've got some statistics here erm. Okay, erm, before the First World War, agriculture's share of world trade was over fifty percent, a half of our, of all world trade prior to the First World War was agricultural products, alright. Today, it's less than fourteen percent. Sorry could you repeat that please. Yes, before the First World War, over half of all world trade was in agricultural goods, whereas now, there's less than fourteen percent. So there's a marked decline there. Okay, erm, what other factor is, is often attributed to agriculture's of trade, or decline in agriculture's erm, composition of world trade? Something that GATT is trying to, to sort out. Yes, protectionism is often erm, suggested as the major reason why er, agricultural trade, is er, has declined so much. Protectionism since the Second World War, particularly, erm, has grown rapidly, however, there was, you know, we, agricultural protectionism isn't a thing erm, isn't a, a recent phenomenon, agricultural protectionism was around in the U K er, in the last century, eighteen twenties, erm, the, the corn laws, as they, as they were called, that was erm, a major, major set of tariffs on imports of er wheat primarily into the U K, prior, prior to that erm, in the seventeenth century, in sort of sixteen hundreds, alright, the U K used to be a net exporter, of our wheat, and we had a comparative advantage in those, in those times. And er, in actual fact our wheat exports were taxed alright, as a means of raising revenue, primarily, that's why they were taxed erm, a very easy way to obtain government revenues. So protectionism, I mean there's still protectionism if you're taxing your exports, it's a t so protectionism is, is not er, a recent phenomenon, however, the extent of protectionism has risen dramatically in this century, particularly since the Second World War. Okay, so why might protectionism erm, affect world trade? Erm, because the governments are trying to protect domestic industries through and erm, they are trying to do this by actually physically blocking imports so domestic consumers have to, have to buy from domestic producers rather than from abroad to stop the domestic industry declining. Right, okay, I mean, essentially that's it. If you're supporting your own domestic agriculture, right, what are you doing, you're increasing your self sufficiency, if you're increasing your self sufficiency er, you may well be erm, well you will be substituting for import, what was, what's imported is now produced domestically alright, so the demand for imported agricultural goods will decline. Okay, it is often argued that, I mean this is the principal reason why agricultural trade hasn't been in the GATT negotiations, because agricultural er, protectionism has been enshrined in domestic agricultural policy,govern policy makers will say, we are protecting er, our own domestic industries right, because we, because of er, erm, deleterious effects that would be imposed, or the burdens that would be imposed on domestic agriculture if we didn't, we don't think that the fabric of the rural society could withstand the reversion to laissez faire in agricultural goods. It, it's a domestic policy, hands off, it's got nothing to do with international trade at all, it is purely a domestic policy and that is essentially the argument that is erm, prevented agriculture erm, from sort of slipping through the GATT net. Alright, it's domestic policy, it's got nothing to do with international trade, it shouldn't er, be included in international trade. Clearly, there's a very naive and simplistic view of, of er, protectionism. Protectionism in any form will affect tr will affect trade and er, but nevertheless the agricultural lobbies have been sufficiently strong to withstand pressure from GATT to include agriculture in, in the negotiations. If you bear in mind that virtually every other product is, has been able to er, to be accommodated within GATT, it shows that the agricultural lobby is pretty damn powerful, alright, not only in this country, but throughout the world erm, to prevent that, you know, much more so than steel, coal, cars, computers, any of those industries that you might think oh, pretty powerful lobby groups, er, haven't got a patch on the farmers, but er right, okay, so those reasons may count for erm, for protectionism, er, sorry, for er, the relative de decline of er agricultural trade. What other effects does protectionism have on agricultural markets? Alright it reduces trade in agricultural products, but it has other effects? Over time it makes the domestic industry less competitive. Yes, very true. If there's more competition, it makes if there's the same amount of protection amongst er, rival countries, it's not their hard luck,but if they're trading competitively enough. Yes, I mean, any protectionism, right will reallocate resources, alright, away from the most efficient uses of resources and toward inefficient uses of resources. That's what protectionism is, just reallocation of resources. Alright, so supporting agriculture right, means losses elsewhere in the economy, and this is why protectionism is always a bad, is always a bad thing in terms of net welfare. Alright, although the farmers are benefiting alright, from protectionism alright, you know, we're, we as tax payers and consumers, are diverting er, resources into agriculture away from somewhere else. Alright, and because that, protectionism is required to do that, we must be taking resources away from more efficient industries and putting them into, into agriculture. Like, instead of, you know, spending erm, in the hundreds of millions of, or billions of pounds that we spend on agriculture, supporting agriculture, we could use those resources to produce a lot more of other goods. Alright, so a pound spent in agriculture, alright, is much less, is worth a lot less than a pound spent elsewhere, right, cos farmers are relatively inefficient. I know in the free market, resources will be allocated, erm, in an optimal way, in that those, er, those sectors that, that are the most productive, in economic terms, you know, they can produce more output per unit input, alright, those sectors that can do that will get the resources. Alright, what's happening now, is that we're taking resources away from those efficient sectors and giving it to inefficient agriculture. Now, there are good reasons why we might want to do that, but in economic terms you'll reduce the net welfare of the economy, or the world simply because you're diverting resources away from efficient modes of production into inefficient modes of production. It's quite a shortsighted policy, if you look at the er,because, if you erm, if you introduce subsidies to actually protect the domestic industry then that's often going to cause retaliation from other countries and therefore effectively sealing off any trade, any effective trade at all, and consequently because there's no competitive pressure on the domestic industries, they're not going to feel the need to make themselves more productive, which they would do when there was competition. So therefore, the decline is just going to become a natural part of agricultural That's right, that's right, and er, you know, we see this in, in all sorts of sectors, where you know, protectionism has effectively prohibited trade. You know, you've only got to go to Eastern Europe and China, you know, these places have been completely erm, insulated from any world trade. They've been heavily er, subsidized. What happens when you open up the market twenty years down the line, you realize that these industries are dinosaurs, they're using technology that's thirty years out of date. Right, now that hasn't happened to quite the same degree in, in agriculture, because a lot of agriculture erm, the protectionism that we've given is in terms of high, high prices. Alright, and so there's an incentive for these small producers, alright, to maximize their yields, alright, because the more they produce the higher income they, they'll have. Alright, so how do they maximize their yields? Well, they erm, they use the latest techniques, agriculture hasn't become, er, hasn't stagnated in the presence of protectionism, because there's always been an incentive there for farmers to maximize their yields. You know, they haven't been given erm, er, an income regardless of what they produce. Alright, this was, this was often the, the case say er, Eastern European industries where they just sort of said right, okay you're, we're going to subsidize this erm, plant that produces cars alright, there were no, there were very few production targets, if there were production targets, erm, er, they were very low, essentially the support that Eastern European car manufacturers got was, was not coupled right, to production. Whereas the support the farmers received right, has always been coupled to production, so the more they produce, the more support they get, the higher, the higher their incomes. And as a result there's always been erm, an incentive there to increase agricultural production. How do they do that, well, they employ the latest technology cos, they you know, U K farmers are some, are some of the most erm, er, well they use some of the most highly capital intensive techniques of production. You know, using artificial insemination techniques, they're using erm, some er, designer er, seeds for their er, for their crops, they're using scientifically engineered agro-chemicals, they're using state of the art machinery, and they're, they're using those, that technology to increase output because the more they produce, the more support, or the higher their, their income will be. Alright, so they haven't become they haven't become dinosaurs in the same way as the Eastern European car manufacturers might have done. Erm, so we've got, resources are always going to be taken out of the most efficient sectors if we, if we use protectionism. What happens, what other effects have there been as a result of protectionism in agricultural trade? Trade is reduced relatively, but it's had impacts on, on the world market. What has the world market become? What's, what's happening to prices? artificially inflated Well, well, domestically yes, that, that's true. Domestic farmers receive high, higher prices, but what happens to, to the world market? That's good, erm, yes, there's a, there's a continuing debate as to whether agricultural prices have fallen, right, but it appears that agricultural prices have in have indeed fallen over the, over the last century. Right, there's been a decline, if you think back to our, that marketing we did in agricultural transformation process, one of the results of that model, was that the prices of agricultural goods relative to manufactures would fall over time right. And this seems to, this seems to have occurred. Erm, I've got some more statistics here that er right, I mean there have been, the reason why it's difficult to pick out trend, long-run trends in agricultural prices is because, in very sort of, erm, short periods throughout any long, long sample alright, there will be very high agricultural prices. Alright, simply because erm, there is, inelastic demand alright, and if there's a very bad crop throughout the world, prices will suddenly just, just sky-rocket for, for one or two years, so that makes it difficult to pick out an underlying trend because sometimes agricultural prices are very, very high. But by and large when we take out these very unusual or exceptional years, agricultural prices do seem to have fallen. Erm, let me just see in the report if you look at the nineteen eighties erm yes, between nineteen eighty and nineteen eighty nine, the volume of agricultural trade, alright, grew by twenty six percent, alright, now that was a third of the growth of manufactures, alright, manufactures were growing by nearly ninety percent over that period, alright. During that same period, food export prices fell by eleven percent alright, whereas manufactured export, prices of manufactured exports rose by twenty percent. How much did it fall by? Eleven percent. Okay Manufactured goods? Rose by twenty, twenty percent. Okay. Protectionism also leads to price volatility on, on world markets. Why, why might protectionism lead to volatility? If we think, if we assume there's a, a world, a world market for say, wheat, right. Wheat's growing virtually throughout, throughout the world right. If there's a supply side shock, erm, if we take bad weather in say the northern hemisphere, that's going to affect prices, but because there are some producers who sell on the world market who come from the southern hemisphere, right, perhaps, there's good weather in the southern hemisphere, and that's, because there's a larger geographical area over which erm, production is spread, it's less likely that we, we're going to see major fluctuations in supply right, and as a result it's less likely that we're going to see major fluctuations in price. Now, if you contrast that with the protectionist case, we say, virtually in the whole of western Europe, Japan, erm, to a lesser extent America, but the main consuming areas for say a commodity like wheat right, they're all self sufficient. Let's assume they're all self sufficient, the world market essentially becomes a residual market, it's not the market place where everyone goes any longer, it's the market where just a few people will go. Those countries that are not self sufficient, who can't afford to have erm, er, expensive agricultural support policies in place. Because the, the market becomes much smaller, right, there is, world trade in agricultural products has fallen relatively speaking, right, as a result, that market is going to be very, very volatile, it only takes say er, bad harvest in Argentina, or er, Australia, in one country, that doesn't have support programmes, to affect the world market substantially, because that one supplier is now relatively large, because most major erm, countries are self, are now self sufficient. So the world market is a bit of misnomer, it's not a world market, right, it's a residual market. Right, comprising the erm, the suppliers and consumers of all those countries that don't have, that aren't self sufficient. And seeing that most countries are self sufficient either through, well primarily through protectionism, in that, that market's going to be very volatile, it's going to very susceptible to changes in output from one region or partic or, or one country. And this is why, one of the reasons why we've seen, we've witnessed increased price volatility over the last forty years right, it's because world markets have tended to become much more residual, much less world, much less worldly. Why's that been the case? Well, it's because protectionism has meant, has led to self sufficiency in the main, er, in the main consuming countries. Okay right, erm, tell me, tell me something wheat and cotton. You were asked to collect some data on wheat and cotton. What er, what have you found out then? For wheat, er total world, world trade has increased over the last thirty years,from er, it's there somewhere, er, from about sixty, from forty one thousand three hundred and seventy seven thousand metric tonnes to er to about eighty four thousand four hundred and four thousand metric tonnes Right. somewhere in that region, so it's increased a lot, but trade say in Europe has, has decreased in wheat over that period. Okay, so we've been saying that, I mean clearly, I mean that, that's good evidence to suggest that world trade in absolute terms in agricultural goods is, is increasing, but as a proportion of world trade erm, it's er, we know, we know that, we know that it, it's falling. Right now, I've got some data here which says, let's just have a look er well the important point is that, oh yes, okay, erm, I'll just read this out developed countries dominate most aspects of world agricultural trade, as exporters or importers, they were involved in eighty seven percent of all world trade in nineteen eighty eight. Now, some fifty percent of this commerce takes place among developed countries. Over, of which, half, over half is accounted for by intra-EC transactions, under the Common Agricultural Policy . Right so nearly ninety percent of all world trade right, occurs between developed countries. Can you just repeat those figures again, please. Yes, eighty seven percent right, in nineteen eighty eight of world agricultural trade was between developed countries. Erm right now, half of that, erm, eighty seven percent of world agricultural trade, half of that is accounted for, right, by intra-EC trade in agricultural goods. Okay, so the European Community, there, there are a lot of world ag a lot of world trade, right it's not world trade, it's trade within the European Community, right, and that trade has been stimulated by the Common Agricultural Policy. Right, so although world wheat trade has risen there, okay a lot of that world wheat trade will have been the U K selling wheat to Germany and er, Germany selling wheat to, to the U, to the U K. Alright, so a lot of that world trade will be intra-EC, not what we would think of as, as world trade, because they're both very inefficient producers, they're just selling er, inefficient products to one another. Right, erm, I think yes, we'd better, we'd probably better leave it there. What I recommend you, you look at, I don't think it's on your reading list, no it's not, it's not on your reading list, but there are copies of it in the library. You get a very good feel for, for world trade and the problems that are currently in the news at the moment with GATT, it's a book entitled Current Issues in Agricultural Economics, right, Current Issues in Ag Econ it's edited by er, the one and only Tony Rayner and er, David Coleman, so Rayner and Coleman are the editors, How do you spell Rayner? R A Y N E R , and that's your head of department in case erm, so if you look in that book in chapter four, right, there's er agricultural trade and the GATT, if you look er, if you read that chapter, it'll give you all the information you need to know about erm, agricultural trade, erm, how it's changed, what the costs, there are a lot of estimates of the costs of agricultural protectionism, and as the benefits to liberalization of er, of trade, and also it gives er, a view of erm, er the Uruguay round of GATT. Why, why agriculture has been introduced in, into, into the GATT negotiations after forty, after forty years. Why has it taken forty years for agriculture to be incorporated. But I think there's a couple of copies in the, in the library erm, because this, this book's often used in other, in other years. If you just have look at that chapter four, that will give you a, some good erm, some good information, some, some good statistics. Right, okay, I think we'll wrap it up there, thanks very much. This is old history project tape number two of Mr of Ipswich, in Suffolk. My name is the date is the second of March nineteen eighty seven. This is interview number five of Ipswich Docks. Do you remember anything happening during the war down the docks? Yes we had er ships wh we, they call erm these liberty ships come in from America loaded with bombs and when they moved them up there, well they call them down here they call them liberty ships and er the bombs were loaded, so they used to erm put all timber between each layer of bombs and they had proper carpenters who would fix all these and when the dockers went down, they put these bombs out, cos they weren't detonated,the detonators were in the fore end of the ship, right down the lower hull and erm the bombs were loaded into open trucks loaded into, well the dockers they thought it was dangerous, cos we had the Fire Brigade, that's the fire service down there and standing by with the fire engines and dockers they wanted the, they want a shilling, I think it was a shilling a day extra, well a shilling extra something like that and there they got it the shilling or extra pound , cos us crane drivers we weren't on the same par as them, so we asked for a shilling. Oh no, no, no, we couldn't. up in the crane, the dockers on the ground, they wouldn't give it to us, right we say we ain't gonna take any more out, they, we got the shilling. You got it? Yeah, we got it and another time you see, when we wer when we used to be crane drivers, when we first started crane driving, the job for a crane driver was to do anything, you were a crane driver but if your crane wanted painting you would paint it yourself, chip to paint it. If a docker, you got to help the dockers down the hold, if you ain't got the crane driving to do, you had to go in the warehouse if there ain't nothing to do. But course now the present day they don't do none of that, they drive the crane and only the crane, they don't even clean the crane. And you actually had to maintain your own And we had to maintain our own crane. crane paint it? Paint it, yeah, chip and paint off the top of the jib. What ? Chip and paint up the top of the jib. Chip it? Yeah, chip all the rust off. Oh, I see. And red lead it and then used to be off the top of the jib. Well you, you got on the cranes down there, you go up fifty feet and then you had to go up another fifty feet to your top of your jib. So you can say you're about one hundred and five feet up in the air. Needed a head for heights. And you never had no, no, no safety belts or nothing, just stand there and paint and stand on a piece of angle , if you only want the laugh out of it, cos the cranes down there are the swan lift cranes. Yeah and y What do you mean by swan lift cranes? Well the cr the jib went up and then it came down like that, well that swan neck on the cr that used to be what they call level oven, cos as y as you lift your crane out, so this part would come up. The end? The end would come up and, and keep your load level on the ground you see, otherwise if you were a straight jib, they'd come down and further you come down the further, the lower your load get. Oh that, that was a lovely crane. Otherwise what they got some of the latest cranes out down there,you had to come off the barrel, go up the jib , come down again, then up again. Why was that? Well, cos that's to keep the level oven, you see, what they call a level oven crane, but the swan neck crane, that was one wire right from the barrel, right over to your load. So the jib was disjointed? That's right yes, yeah that bit that was just like what they call a swan neck, just like the swan and that was like that and so it kept me at load level, they were built by and some of the best cranes I've ever known on the dock . What were they used mainly for? They were , they were for grabbing stuff out for and stone cold general cargo, anything. What sort of cargoes came in though? Oh we used to have phosphate and sulphur , potash, coal, granite you name it anything, general cargo we've had, loaded everything, even dead bodies, we sent, there was one young, one young person, he got drowned up the coast there and they and he had to go back to Holland and they brought that from out the warehouse and put it on the stern of our ship, his coffin, they sent that back and they erm export er pigs to Poland, all live pigs, pedigree pigs. How were they loaded? Into these, just a crate, and they used to get the old pigs and they used to shove 'em in there, shove the trap down, and they used to load them on the ships, they went back to Poland. Did anybody travel with them to look after them? Oh yes, they were all fed properly, looked after alright, but they all, they told me they were all pedigrees but I doubt cos I don't know whether that's the truth, but they reckon in Poland when things were bad, when they unload them, they'd make some excuse that one of these pigs got out and run away and course they used to catch it er, somewhere they used to catch it and that was their fee then. For food? Yeah, they would, let the bake it we used to Danish foods and cos we used to have a Danish er, we used to have erm Polish ship come in one week and an English ship come in the next week and the, the bacon was just pigs were all killed, wrapped in sacking and tied with string,and they used to be laid in the hold like that. Well after you discharged the ship cos all the blood was there and erm they used to have to wash them holds all out then and this bacon was put on open lorries and taken to London, put in the refrigerator. Now today, cos they all, and all come over in container, refrigerated containers. How did they keep it cool on the boat? Pardon? How did they keep it cool on the boat? Well they refrig like refrigerate the hold, the hold was refrigerated, but after handling the smell was re terrible. Was it? Yeah. Did you ever have any of the bacon? No, I didn't, no. Never could fancy it, never could fancy it. I know some people did but no. See during the war we had, we had a lot of er minesweepers down here and they were all in these trawlers, fishing trawlers that's all they were and they used to go minesweeping off the coast, from here to Yarmouth and then, and Yarmouth and Lowestoft they had theirs, they used to like meet and cos they used to be out four days minesweeping and in four days. Cos they they used to come in here for water and bunkers you see. Water and? Bunkers, coal, they all coal furnace you see,and we er they'd come in and we used to fill them up with coal, whatever they wanted lot of that went over the side coal, beautiful coal that was. How did it go over the side? Well when you had your grab, you used to lower it on the deck of the, deck of the erm trawler and when you open your grab, that much, a lot of it hold up in the grab you see, you couldn't get so of course when you did take your grab up, lot of it went over the side. Did they get charged for that? Oh, no ch that was government money weren't it? Government? All government money and when my father was, after the, after the war he had a little old dredger, little grab dredger and they went along the quay dredging it all up and er, course they took so much out the hole, scrubbed it, all good coal again. What they done, ooh they had one or two bags of that. Yeah. What other cargoes would you have to unload as a crane driver? Crane driver, television tubes, light bulbs, do you know these bulbs er, they used to come er, we used t they used to be made here, they used to be sent over to Holland and the brass bit used to be put in and the element inside and they used to go over there in cardboard boxes all loose and there used to be hundreds of them broken, they didn't, they didn't worry about it, as long as they, they reckon that as long as they get twenty five percent a hold they were satisfied and they were just in ordinary boxes, no paper in or nothing, just all loose. And they went over just to be fitted with the Just fitted with the brass, that was that was. All stuff, cos then we, they imported a lot of er razors and erm all different television stuff and we had a lot of beer come in from erm Germany, lot of beer come the that stuff, that's a Dutch beer . I can't think of the name of the other German beer but the roll-on roll-off'll be out in the dock, cos we had a roll-on roll- off in the dock at all When did that come into use? Well I would say er about ten year ago, cos I was stevedoring then stevedore and erm I used to go up there, and I was very friendly with the old skipper there. I was going to ask you about your crane driving, how long were you a crane driver? Well I was a crane driver from nineteen thirty two till I went stevedoring, what time would that be, oh about nineteen fifty five I reckon. Now stevedore, what did you have to do as a stevedore? Well I used to do, what you're doing see, you're in charge of loading the ship, see but they did, first of all they, they, we had er, we had a foreman stevedore, then we had, and then erm we had the stevedores and the dockers they went away on these courses, down to ones, they used to go to Southampton and some went to Hull, but when they came back, they called theirselves stevedores, so course our harbourmaster, he say that's not right, they're stevedores, well you gotta be all called foremen stevedores, so Captain come to me, he said, what are we gonna call you ? I decided we better call you chief foreman stevedore, and that's what they call me, chief foreman, so that's what they call 'em today,chief foreman stevedore. And what did that involve? involve me I used to get out in the morning, get up in the morning and be down there at six, see how many ships and see how many what I want, so many dockers on each ship, sometimes they'd want say six, sometimes eight. There might be another house foreman want a man who would stand on the house and and they want a checker, so I'd go all these men for these different ships, that was my job, being chief foreman stevedore. Where would you draw these men from? From the, from the pool, see there used to be a, there used to be a pool, near lock gates, that's where they used to be. One time that used to be further in the dock and I used to be let the erm, the manager know, the pool manager, cos at one time before the war, dockers were erm casual and when the war started, then they thought theirself, right we're gonna make er dockers more or less permanent, so they all come under the Ipswich Dock Commission then. Instead of having they had to come through the Dock Commission all of the men, they wanted so and so men for that boat, they used to come through to me. Before that though, and had their own men Had their own men unload the boats? unload the boats, yes. They They were employed directly by That's right but they all came ? They used to work say one week and have about a month off or go on the dole for a month. So then what happened was, did the Dock Commission say you can't have your own men any more? That's right they had to go on a rota. Run by the Dock Commission? Run by the Dock Commission. See the dockers then all got together and they said right so many men for that job, so many for that job and that didn't matter who they were, they had to their job, all the way round the dock. Whether they wanted to go on that job or not? Whether they want to go or not, they take their turn and the employer had to pay a percentage into the pool what those men earned, so when those men hadn't work at all they drew their money from the National Dock Labour Board. Is this where the National Dock Labour Board came into existence? That's how how they come into existence, yes he was a man what introduced that. When was this? Oh that's er, I would say about nineteen forty roughly I'd say about nineteen forty that came in, might have been before that. Before that then if they were ill They get nothing. Could they not get any welfare benefit? No. No they get nothing, they'd get, all they went on the dole, well they used to get, they used to get erm, say yeah well you would get welfare benefit what we call the club, you go on the club and you see used t I, my, apparently had a private club, you could have both you see you had the private club and you got so much from the government, the National Health. The dockers even today, see they're still got the, still got the erm National Dock Labour Board but now the employers wanna do away with it. Do they? They wanna do away with that now making these men redundant. Now they're not doing so much that many thousands of pounds, that lot 'em took it some didn't. But they'll still need men won't they? They'll still need men, yes. They can't do away with them altogether? They won't do away with them, no but cos they, they're trying to do away with the National Dock Labour Board and come back to the old system. What just the having casuals again? Casuals or employing their own men,what they want I suppose Why did the work, why was the work so casual, was it because boats Well you could never, you could never rely on shipment, cos one time you'd get a lot of shipment and the next time you might be six weeks and get no shipment, so who's gonna pay them their money? Mm That's the reason they brought in this here, decasualized the docks. But, why did the Dock Commission decide to make it compulsory for the men to be employed by them and not by the firm? Well no, this was, this was a government thing. That was the government It was a government thing it wasn't the Dock Commission. See they said righto, the employer has gotta be the Dock Commission. They, they haven't gotta be or or . No of the port is the Dock Commission. And what was the reaction to the Dock Authority over this? Oh, they didn't mind. They didn't mind? Oh, they didn't mind they were getting their money they, they were getting paid for when they were going home. See they used to get the, they used t what they call they used to report for work at say quarter past seven in the morning and then they be at work at half past seven, but now of course they don't now, they, I think they start about eight o'clock now. If there's no work for 'em they can go home for the day. And they get paid? And they get paid, they say about used to, used to be seven and six pence , something like that, but er course today that's different altogether. So really that was an improvement for the dockers, wasn't it? Oh, goodness, yes. Dock paying for them. That was, yes. Big improvement. So when you say you used to go up to the pool. The pool is where everyone used to collect? That's right, yeah. What would you do then? I'd, I would go through to the pool man and say right, I want so many men for the Rotterdam, I want six men for purpose. Cliff Quay, I want four men South West Quay on the coal boat for boat. I want eight men on a coal boat at Quay. He'd send them then, he every dock was numbered from one to hundred and thirty and he'd say righto, number one so and so, number five so and so and of course when they come back to the pool, they'd go on the end of the rota. See so after men finished they would, there'd be a steady turnround all the time. So they all have to be quite adaptable Yeah, they can do anything. Carrying timber, making timber, carrying bags or today. None of it. Did any of them ever resent having to do particular jobs? Some, yeah some did. Oh yes I know one man there now, well he's so dumb he'd rather go down the hold, than he would do marking the pencil and paper. Course he can't do pencil and paper. He's so thick, you know he'll say right I'll go down the hold, I'll do the humping, what they call humping, he'll do that, loading these slings or bags, rather than him standing there and say well ten bags in that sling, put ten down, he couldn't do that, so he'd rather go down the hold that's happened. Did you prefer, prefer being a stevedore to driving the crane? Oh, yes I did, oh yes, it was more of a job, it was,. In what way? I had more responsibility. you u u use your brain a bit more, see now if er they used to come to me, my brother was one, he'd come to me and he'd say, right I've got a heavy lift, so will you come up here and sling it for me but we had to put the slings round the heavy lift, say, I say right I'll come up and another time we had a railway carriage come down like that'll be shipped abroad, old railway carriage. Well we had er, we took out all the gear for that, so I knew a lot, being a crane driver I'd know what gear I wanted but a lot of these stevedores what are on there now, they were lorry drivers and they ain't got a clue what they do, so there part of my job meant I'd go round and give advice. Oh, I see, now you would draw the men you need productively and go off and get the job done? That's right, yes. See like erm l l l lorries and all like that, caravans, I mean I, caravans, we used to load the small ones and er we used to have two bars go underneath with a bit of wood on top and we used to have one hand on one end while they cos that was a damn nuisance. So I thought, in my wisdom I thought, there was easier way than that,wh at one bar and I had one rope come under the draw bar with a tow bar, so I said right one bit of rope, one bar, so all the docker gotta do now is take the bar out, take the rope off, that was alright and you could stow 'em on the, on the deck . They were all happy about that. And the Dock Commission didn't mind you changing the more I did I never got anything for but that was easy for the dockers and easy for me. Mm mm. I mean, one time,for gear, then they don't, we don't make slice ropes at one time. They don't slice 'em now. And you had to that yourself? We had to do that, the stevedores had to do that, my first of stevedoring. Make rope strops. We used to get a collar of rope, manilla rope, put it on to a truck and used to stretch it out first and then cut off the lengths. We always stretched the rope first, before you spliced it. And what was that used for? Well for slings, getting bags out of the hold see the whole job was so interesting, when you were doing these jobs that was interesting all the time. Did that take you on to different boats from Pardon? Did that take you on to different boats from Oh, goodness yes different parts of the world? I used to, no I only went away on er, we only went to Rotterdam once, that's all. I had to go over there just to see how dockers worked over there, to see if I could improve it here, well I couldn't because dockers wouldn't do what they, they were doing in Holland. Why was that? Well they had one man in the hold and they used to have a fork lift in the hold, in Holland, with one man and he could do that job and they sent one man ashore, well over here we had four men in the hold and two men ashore. Well the dockers wouldn't have it here. No, had to keep this four men instead of two. Why wouldn't they? They wouldn't do it, no. Why? Oh, well er doing away with four men weren't it? Mm You see well they were employing two over in Holland, we were employing six. Have things changed these days? Oh they changed on account of all containers you see. Yes. So eventually the they had to give in in the end. Oh they do yes, well because nowadays, because they got more men on each job now than they really want. I mean that there's half of them go down the dock now, they don't do anything. Don't they? No, but they, they get the money for it. In the early days, back to the early days, what sort of boats would come into Ipswich Docks? Would they be sailing or steam? Er Going back to sails your early days down the docks. Sails, well we had one or two sailing ships in my early days come up but the majority are steam. What sort of sailing ships were they? Well three masts, four masts, ships but we didn't have many of them, we only had about two or three come up and they came from Australia Did they? for a week, and th that in the holds then they were all, that was, we was hauling sacks, what they used to call erm and they used to bring 'em out, out of the hold on a, on a winch, and put them on the scale and weigh 'em and that's what they used to call catch weights. Catch weights? Catch weights, so don't matters what it was but that man who was weighing them he got no brains, if one was overweight and go down, the next one gotta be underweight and he'd take that off that and put it on that, he was so quick,wh that's what he, he was a good checker, they were good men then did you say? job they ever done. That was the only thing he ever did? That's the only thing he ever done to go and catch weight on all wire. Catch or ketch? Catch, catch, catch weights. K E No I think you'd call it a C catch catch yes C A T C H Yeah catch weight Catch weights And it was up to him to adjust the weight Adjust the weight from one to the other, one sack to the other. Would they be unloaded quickly? Well, pretty fair, because then they used to go down Botterman's Bay and where they used to er, the dock was in the hold, that was all loose grain and they used to put four bushels to the , so they used a bushel skip like that,wh which was a wooden one with a handle each side and they'd go into the wheat Was that about two foot four? That's right and they'd do into the wheat and they'd on they'd smoothed off, one man'd had a big sack there, they hold her in, they had this one they build one in, he'd go one in, he'd go one and he'd go one, four, four bushels of the corn and they used to tow it up, heave it out on the scale and they used to have a little old hand basin like that, with a handle on, take a little out or put a little in,and then them men down the hold, them ones, then he'd do so many on the left and they'd change over, he'd do that way. They never kept the same place twice. Why d why did they change over? Well that was a lot easier I mean you'd get used to doing one way and that man, so that's the reason they changed over, so it was more equal. Mm stop the shoulders aching I would think. Well it used to be carried on the back and . They'd carry the sack on their back? On the back, the bushel, yes The bushel? The corn. Do you know what the equivalent of is today? Not now I don't no. No, I don't perhaps the children I don't. much the same now erm, what do you call it now,in that big all the rest of it now well. I mean looking at a book and see the distance between, in there they give you the distance between Leeds, Ipswich, Leicester and Scotland and then you come to kilometres and That's right. that's hard job to find out what to do it is for me any rate Mm I'm too, getting too old for that. The grain that came in was that heading for the mills? That all, that's all for the grain and then of course we used to import a lot at locust. Locust, locust beans they'd be about that length, they used to be just like a brown bean, they were dry. Who imported those? Er they used to import that. Do you know what they used them for? Locust beans they used to be animal feed I think. Mm mm. And there's children going to school yeah,that be lovely, used to eat this locust. Was it sweet? Well it was in a sense. You take this erm, that's like that's like er corn flakes. I've known when they used to deal with the flake, what they call the Flake Mill, that's er down at erm Eagle Mill down near the lock gates when they were making this here which were like corn flakes for the, for the animals and and they were dropped like this, be nice and warm and You were allowed in the dock with children? Yeah, well that, that was all open you see that was all open It still is today isn't it? It is still open today it ain't in some docks. No. No, but it is in the fish dock. Oh dear oh dear. No the experience has been very good you know, going through life all that time. What sort of changes are you aware of in the dock? Changes? Over the years? Oh dear, well I could say er work has got a lot easier for a start, a lot easier and they ain't as, they ain't as, there ain't so much night work as there used to be. I mean er scrap iron, I mean I've done that erm where we've loaded scrap iron ships but they don't do none of that now and when you load scrap iron put so much in on the floor and then dockers would pull it apart and then there'd then,mean you gotta go and pull a lot of that scrap iron out, load that off, well that the stevedore would say. Do you want a couple of hours overtime tonight? So we'd go and work a couple of hours overtime or all night the scrap iron. It all depends on the scrap merchant, like they used to send a lot of scrap iron erm from Ipswich to Germany just before the war, well they used to send they reckon they send to Danzig Mm and then try and ship again into Germany. That's what they reckon they used to do but he, I mean he was an old Jew, he was but he was, he was to the Germans. Did that stop then during the war? Pardon? That stopped obviously during the war? That stopped, oh yes and the last, the last erm scrap iron we loaded was er I think the, the Japanese they bought the ships, these old tr old tramps, they bought them. Tramps? Tramps, yeah, yeah old car Why did you call them the tramp ship? Well they was an old cargo boat, that weren't like a naval boat, they don't call it now, they don't call a naval boat a tramp, well the other ones cos they're faster and th th the old tramp, tramps it was like an old tramp on the road and erm because we used to go very slow, well th the Japanese after the war, they bought these old ships up, we loaded them with scrap iron and they took the whole lot over to Japan, and cut the whole ship up scrap iron. Do you know we had bales of, bales of til tins all pressed together as big as that machine, yeah and they'd dump into the ship and they used to have magnets, put 'em into a net and these er bales of tins, any old tins, they used to find, used to go in there, we used to tip 'em, we used to tip them into the hold they cut the ship right up and that that's what we're getting back in motor cars now. Shouldn't be a bit surprised, and the amount of er stuff that used to come from er these ordnance places in the army. Cor, there was boxes of brand new tools come down there, spanners, and they used to be the, like these, like a big chopper, well they used to have couple of all with erm breezed up with erm like greaseproof paper over 'em, bag 'em up into the holds, guns, there was guns, what done with the guns they hit the er, just near the barrel or the trigger,th they used to flatten them out so they couldn't use 'em but they all went in the ships bombs, or little shells they used to find in there, all scrap iron. And this was all being shipped out of the dock? Shipped out out of to Japan. They went to Mm mm. and I reckon we now getting them back into motor cars Motor cars shouldn't be a bit surprised. When you were talking earlier on about the bombs and the detonator coming in, where were they stored, at the docks or were they No they right away. They went straight off? Yes, straight off, yeah, Where would they go to? I don't know where they went, to these aerodromes or not, I should think so Mm Cos I mean they were, they were, they had so many you know, that was a lot Were there are lot Oh oh cos I mean they use today they haven't got these what they call are common users on the railway now. A common user was er, just an open truck with two doors one each side and they used to put a tarpaulin over the top. And then was, is the general way of transport Oh yes on the railway oh yes it was. Was the railway used a lot for that? Eh? Was the railway used a lot for that? Oh it was then, yes, now it ain't that's not used once a week now, cos you got all these containers, see it's still the railway and Felixstowe cos you got these here big freight trailer go on now. The the engines that pulled the trucks, were they steam? Yes, steam then they got over to diesel. Mm, so it sounded quite a dangerous place to be with cranes moving about and trains all over the place. Yes. Oh yeah I mean you take now the erm, you could say nineteen twenty six bloke, I remember an old union bloke, he was on the railway and er, when they cleaned the fire out , cos he used to get all the out, and er these here firemen on cool it with a that's when they first started to nationalize the docks and he said well, they er, he said waste that he said when nationalization come in, well there was a lot more wasted then after that. Was there? Yes. So when was it nationalized? Oh I don't know, just wouldn't know, just after the war, or during the war, yeah during the war, nationalize the railways. Mm Yes, now it's al all back the same way again now. Now the boatmen they used to erm the name, the family of a name of , and the old man, the grandfather his name was and then they had three sons who were boatmen, one was called Arthur John, one had a nickname of Snowball, the other one's name was George and they used to er, some of them at times used to row from the lock gates out to the Cork Lightship together to get a boat, so they made sure of roping that boat in at, at er in the dock or at Cliff Quay and course they used to get the captain of the ship to sign er a bill and they used to take that to the, to the shipping agent and then he'd pay 'em the money. Course they got away with income tax out of that because they weren't, they weren't much erm to do with income tax that time, I mean my tax at that time of the year was about, at that time was about four pound a year when I was erm, when I was working and you only paid income tax once a year. It weren't, it weren't pay as you earn then. How did they collect it once a year? Well they used to send you,th they used to get the returns from your employer and then they'd send you the demand note in, so then put that to one side did you? so you had to put that to one side. Do you think anybody ever spent too much That's in the oh a lot of people did, oh yes, lot of people spent the money but I was one of the fortunate ones I had a little bit left because I mean I was, er I was very lucky myself, I mean I had a decent job at that time from time I left school and when I was on the dredging plant, I mean you take er in nineteen twenty five when er a schoolboy left school, his money was about ten shillings a week as an errand boy but I was one of the fortunate being a cabin boy on the dredger, I was getting thirty five shillings a week which was a lot of money and then after a few months they, I, they wanted another deck hand, so of course I went on there on four pound a week and then I was well off. That was, that was what the crew were getting four pound a week and course my father that time he done away with a cabin boy so I had to do more or less two jobs, see if I weren't working on deck I'd go down and clean the cabins and that's how, that's how we kept the money going course then after a few years when they got to the finish about nineteen thirty one then the harbourmaster turned round and he ruc reduced our wages five shillings a week, so we were getting three pound fifteen a week. That was three pound fifteen shillings wasn't it? Three pound fifteen shillings yeah and that's how, that's how the work went at that time but as I say these boatmen erm they used t they used to sit down on lock gates day in and day out and didn't have a ship to come in but I've kno kno known them to row down the river at high tide or it's before high tide and there'd be another erm, there'd be other boatmen there, one was called , he went down, he used to go down and get 'em going, there used to be a race between these two families or the and the first one got the boat, the first one roped it in you see, or wh what we call roping in,moor mooring the ship up, that was Did they actually have to bring it up the estuary? What they, yes, what they done, they used to have a large long pull with a hook on and attached to a rope and as the ship was coming up to the river, they would throw this here pole on to a ship with a hook and then pay the rope out and then get towed up to the quay, the ship wouldn't stop for them to pick them up, pick that boat the boat would tow them? Yes, the st the er cargo boat would tow the small boat cos the small boat was only about twelve foot long, twelve to sixteen feet, all different sizes rowing boats then. But the boatman's job was to moor the the To moor the ship up into th th the quay. ship? So they used to know how to get there before That's right, yes The only people what did have a motor in that, at that particular time was the harbourmaster of Pinn Mill cos they always used to call er er er one bloke down there who used to moor the ships up at Bottoman's Bay and er th th th he used to get a retainer from the Ipswich Dock Commission and all he w all he had to do was make sure that was clear of, for shipping, if there was a yacht in the way he'd go and tell them to move and he was what the we used to call him Pinn Mill Harbourmaster. His name was er his name. Then after him they had an, a fella come from I think he finished up as Pinn Mill Harbourmaster, whether they got one now I don't know. And he would organize the boats in, just in Bottoman's Bay and ? He would he'd moored ships up in Bottoman's Bay and that's when, yeah he had a motor boat then to do that job. Who would pay him? Well the agent, that be either or any agent who, who the ship belonged to, see they'd, they'd get through, no doubt they'd get through to the merchants and er they'd find out who the agent is and once they knew the agents well it was plain sailing wasn't it? Mm so they were all So tha tha at that time, I mean they might get as much as three pound for mooring one ship up. Really? But that had to be shared between the number of men Exactly oh yes that was shared between the men what erm, there used to be two men so they'd get er share the three pound between them or five pound whatever it was. And did they, they must have had lean times if they sat around and waited for a boat, one didn't come in some days may be. They didn't get anything at all. But they all sat down there waiting? All sat down there waiting for a for a ship to come in. I knew men old he was a chain smoker, he always used to smoke Woodbines and as one went out he'd light the other one er ou on it, he wouldn't use matches, no he'd, he'd light one cigarette off the other. Would have been cheaper to have used matches. It would have done but he, he used to be what we called a proper chain smoker, oh he must have smoked hundreds of Woodbines in a week, must have been hundreds, that was his life. And did they have any other form of income other than No,they might be on the dole or what they used to call the Board of Guardians something like that. So they looked forward to a boat coming in? They looked, they looked forward to a boat coming in. I mean I know in my time when I was a crane driver if they, if one of them didn't turn up dow down at Cliff Quay they'd come along to a crane driver and they'd say, take a rope for us will you. Cos they used t what they used to do in the small boat, they used to coil so much in the then they'd row to the quay and then the they'd run ashore hid past the line and pull a river and put the bollard for 'em and then cos they'd turn round they might give us a quid for a drink you see Oh I see so then they'd be about three pound or four pound in pocket and that's how they, that's how we used to help one another but once they get one rope ashore they could do it, the job see but of course there's no boatmen today now, they call theirself boatmen but there ain't one of the buggers going in a boat, I don't suppose they could row a boat now. They still, they still moor them though do they? They s moor them but they're employed by the Ipswich Port Authority, the boatmen, these other men weren't. So they had to,the they were purely working for themselves? I mean the man, the man what introduced that I think er was Captain the deputy harbourmaster I think, he introduced that. When was that approximately? Oh that was approximately about erm, well I'm talking about now in my time it must be over twenty year ago, when he introduced that and the simple reason was there was an argument between the deputy harbourmaster and the boatmen which are the cos they used t it all happened over a ship called used to be a collier, used to run here regular and that used to discharge so much coal at Cliff Quay, then it used to go into the dock at Tolwells Quay and finish unloading because it used to bring two or three different lots of coal, it was a four hold ship, she had four holds, and there'd be one hold for the chemical works and perhaps there'd be three holds for and that se Wh what happened over that one then, you said th Well cos I letting the ships go and they, that was a night time and course I don't know what happened over, over the argument but anyhow these boatmen they lost their job, they n never been happened since cos the then the Dock Commission took over the erm roping the ships in, come under Ipswich Dock Commission. Were they paid just for tying the boats up or for bringing them up the estuary as well? No just for tying the boats up, that's all tying them up but when they went out to the end of the estuary that was just a case of get there first to get the job? Oh yes, I mean if they were going out to let go of the ropes. Oh would they, they'd have to Yes, they'd, they'd get paid twice, oh for letting 'em go and roping 'em in, I mean when a ship was swinging there's somebody, I mean when a ship was swinging at Cliff Quay, there's somebody gotta let go of the erm, the spring what they're swinging on. The When the ship was swinging round, they'd go down the river,th that here rope was still on the bollard so to throw it off Oh I see when the ship was swinging round and that's what they do tod still do that today. If the ship was leaving the port the boatmen have gotta be there to let go of the ropes. But they're now employed by the I P A? They're employed now by the I P A, now, so they're on a regular basis,th th th boatmen today what they call boatmen today, as I say they're not boatmen, they're just ropemen I call it. Did, did the boatmen more or less live with their boats? Oh no, no, no, no the boatmen they used to g they used to be go home one stay there the other lot, others go home, they knew within reason when the ship was due. Oh I see but th they live in the dock area? Well as I say dock area, they might live about half a mile away that was all. so they could hear a boat coming in They'd hear it th th they wouldn't erm they'd know through the agent, when the ships were coming they used to make it their business to go and find out you see but today th they even got telephones on the houses now so they can call 'em out. So just go down there as and when they're needed? There was, there was no telephones then, I mean t Must have been a bit haphazard for you Oh it was yes, I mean y when you take now erm er a boatman, I mean, and he, he like today well they ring up, I mean today I know the Ipswich Port Authority they lay the phone on the houses and they pay for it for 'em Do they? see so if th if they get time off and they want extra men, they phone 'em up or somebody with a boat got bloke in the erm radio tower, cos you got a radio tower on the dock now which every ship that come into port or leave the port have to go through the radio tower and that man's employed twenty four hours a day, seven days a week. I think it's about, I don't know whether it's three or four, these men in the radio tower which at that day cos you'd never had a, a radio tower. How did they used to get the messages in then that they were coming in? Pardon? How did they get the message down to the port here that a boat would be coming in? What years ago? Mm Well because they used to know through the agent and of course them, them would have to hang, row down the river and hang about and would hang about for two or thr I mean when I was on the dredger them men would st they would come aboard the dredger and wait there, do nothing until the boat came up the river. And they'd come on your dredger and wait with you? And they'd come up and wait them but I'd make them a cup of coffee or a cup of cocoa or something like that, there weren't coffee then cos we couldn't afford coffee we used to have cocoa or make them a mug of tea. It's the other way round now cocoa's more expensive than coffee Yeah it is yeah that's right, that's what used to happen, yeah. Were the agents based at the dock? Oh no they were based in the town, at buildings, used to be at the buildings. Then they Mm buildings, where's that? Well that's at the top of , Oh I know it yes and yes their office used to be there, now they got a place on the dock near the lock gates. Were they the only agent or were there other agents? No there's they were, they were called but they were agents for their own ships. Mm, were they on the dock? And they were on the dock. These ones up in the town, did the boatmen used to have to go up the town to find Oh yes yeah the skippers, the skippers would go up the town cos every time a ship used to come in they got, they got to take the their papers up to the agent, what the papers were I don't really know might be a manifest or something like that, what they used to do I mean then you had erm and you had different agents now there's more agents than ever now. There's so many different things changed today as well, it's impossible really to erm keep up with it now today I would think. Would you say it's better? Well I would say it's, yes, better, cos mean with th with th these erm containers you see now I mean, we had about say ten years ago we had a man here he used to deal with the all general cargo, all loose cargo from Beirut and all the Mediterranean ports but course now you got the trouble there now that's a, that's a cargo that's, what's fell away. Going back to the agents up in the town, the boatmen to get information about a ship coming in they would have to go up to the town They would have to go up to the town, yes and find out? and find out, yes. So was there very often a race up to the town to get there first? No I think they'd got to a point where, you know, if you, if you were about erm, they made sure they were the first ones there like the and they, I think they more or less recognized by the merchants they, they were the boatmen. Yeah, in the know. In the, in the know in my time and right. Were there any other rival boatmen, people trying to get in on the scene? Oh yes, they, I say there was one man and the , they used to try and get in if they could. Was there any erm aggression between them? No, never, no. They just I mean at that time say perhaps go in the pub the or the or the , I mean there used to be so many pubs round the er, the dock area then, I mean you take the , and erm then there used to be the erm there was all them pubs round the dock then,noth one or two more but I can't re oh the was another one. And they were situated on the dock? They were all situated on the dock and the is now what they call the ? They call it now they just er they just made into er erm another pub, a posh pub. Oh yes I saw that in the paper. yeah. In the Evening Star Well it used to be, that's where the , that's where the used to be. And the used a little further past the and then there was another one further up near Cranfield well I can't remember the name of that. I can't cos they used to use that a lot. I mean men at the dockers that day they used to drink and drink heavy. Did they? They did, I mean the docker at that time of day he'd take a gallon o beer into work with him. In a in the old stone jar. They were allowed to drink at work? Oh yes, there weren't no argument about that, if they didn't they won't do the bloody work. They wouldn't, I mean they were old men Bet it was thirsty work anyway wasn't it? Yeah that was I mean them, men, men were working like we was talking about a little while ago about head bags Oh yes, what's a head bag? see but we had a head bag where they used to fold a sack in half or put one part through the other and put over the head. A lot o lot of these here dockers used to erm have 'em made out of calico. And why did they do that? And tha when they were carrying er sacks of er fertiliser, corn, anything like that. For a bit of padding or protection? No it used to be just the sacks stop the dust and go down the back and I've known the time what er, when they needed a regular gang of dockers, if they went to work on er, on er Monday morning with a dirty head bag on made of calico, they'd have to buy the beer cos they had, if they ain't got a clean head bag on or a cl clean skullcap, there used to be a little old calico skullcap they used to put on just to keep the dust out the hair and all like that. Did they make these themselves? They made them themselves or the wives did. Yeah, and it was their tradition was it that if one turned up with a dirty If, if one turned up with a dirty one they have to buy the beer that's how they used to be. Then, course then they used to hav when the man stood in green, I knew a fella named which we was talking about a little while ago and he had a pair of lady's stockings which he used to put over his shoes to stop the grain going in and some of these people in the and , they used to have erm, like er string soles with like calico boots and they used to tie them on tight. String soles? String soles. Wh wh Well they used to be like er, used t as you used to braid your hair, they'd braid a bit o rope and they'd, they'd make a sole out of that. Why, why did they make soles of it? Well the they'd, then they'd sew it on to the calico or the firm would do it for 'em. Well why did they do it? Well they were a lot easier, pliable. That's what they used to have f for, for grain. for walking in the grain? Walking in the grain, yes. I mean once you get er in the, say you get on in grain and you got leather shoes on, well you'd roll but th when you got, when you got rope, these rope soles, cos they used to grip on the grain, they wouldn't slip about. And they made them themselves? And well they, some of them made them themselves, some of them, they were supplied by the merchant. Mm Lot o think a lot of them were made, supplied by the merchant and they were made properly by the erm, you can say sh you can say er er any shoemaker perhaps or they'd be a factory what made so many pairs like. When they, when they stopped using them do you think anybody kept them as Oh goodness I don't think, I think they stopped using them during the war and I cr see that used to be like the gasworks, the gasworks you always used to have clogs, they used to have wooden soles, did the gasworks and then they used to have erm like a steel bar underneath or round the sole Why was that? and that, well th well that was cos there used to be all hot cinders you know like coke, red hot coke and they always had clogs then with leather tops. To protect the feet? Yes an I mean and I mean in winter time a wooden sole and a clog they wer they were nice and warm cos I mean you only used to polish 'em you used to put oil on them. Did you? I mean I bought one or two pair of clogs when I was on the dredger and we'd take the iro iron piece off underneath, that's just like a, a shoe what a horse have, like go round the Oh yeah. They use t they used to put th the band round the bottom of the wooden shoe What on the front or the back ? No unde right under on the sole. On the sole? Yeah, right on the sole and cos we used to take them off the iron and put a bit of leather on and grease the uppers with neat's-foot oil and they were really lovely and warm in the winter. Did many people wear clogs? Oh yeah a lot of people, lot of people wore clogs then. Working on the dock? Working on the dock yeah. I mean the they're a lot better than other shoes. What sort of people wore them? Anybody, anybody pair of clogs from the gasworks. Mm. Cos they use t they used to supply them. They supplied them? They supplied them t to their employees cos if they got an old pair they want to wear, they'd flog another one for about five bob. Oh I see they'd put in for a new pair and sell the old pair? They would, yes. That's what used to happen. But where did the gasworks get them from, do you know? No I don't know, they were made by some factory. They weren't made locally? Oh I sh I suppose they might have been but where they were made I, cos I mean you get like they used to b they used to deal in all shoes, no doubt they got them from them. I believe they still do trade don't they? I mean yeah somebody just retired, cos is down on the now, that's where is. Were they trading round the dock area? No I don't know, no co cos they ha they had a shop in I mean that's not far from the docks. Did the did the port supply you with any protective clothing at all? The port they didn't supply you with anything, my father was captain of the dredger Dredging Plant and they didn't even supply him with a hat. Now they get everything . That's the truth that is. So you had to buy your own stuff then? You had to buy your own stuff, I bought a pair of thigh boots and they were all made with leather and he and I used to put neat's-foot oil on them and I could roll them down just like a b just like a boot. they were so s the leather was so soft and they didn't put nails in the soles, they put wooden pegs. To hold the soles on? Wooden pegs in your sole, they used to drill 'em and they used to put wooden, and them wooden pegs would n they'd never come out, cos if you put nails in, the nails would rust. What was this because you were standing in water a lot? That's right yes and th the Corporation had to sewage out four ways to s supply 'em. I think that's where they got the idea and they used to be all leather, thigh boots. Was that the salt water Salt water rust them? and was taken out o the they don't do, they don't do the work now they used to do and years gone by. I mean I've seen men work underneath the sewage and now of course that's all manica mechanical. Where was the sewer outfall? Sewer outfall was down at erm Earth Point near the Power Station is now and th and the Yeah and the sewage is still down there. And that still comes out the same place? That's, that's still down there just so that was all mech mechanical me further down the river then? No sewage outfall is just the other side of the Power Station, that's where it is. In the olden days, what did they used to have to do down there? there, I mean in the older days they used to have a li little railway and they used t used more or less take all the sewage on to his land and there used to be couple little trucks where you tip over and they'd be one down and one up, on and he, old he used to, used to be his, put on his land. What fertiliser? Fertiliser. They weren't such thing as, as er fertilizer what there is today, liquid fertiliser none like that there was all human fertiliser. He used to u used to use tons and tons of that at the sewer outfall. was on the foreshore. Was it? No is near the where the is now. Mm Where the is that's where used to be. What they had a railway run down from there? And they used t they used to have a little, they used to have a railway from the sewer outfall, a little one, narrow one, there used to be, as I say used to have a machine up the top of the hill and they used to pull one down and one up. To the farm? Farm yes, that's how they used to do it. Were they the only people that used to use it like that? That's about the only people that I know of and then, cos later years I would say that they used to cart so much into the erm, into the other farms round here. I mean I've known lorries to go down and get out the human manure Did they? from there and now course they got shipped out and then they used to be a ship as well, used to take it to sea called the Did they? Go from Ipswich? Used to go from Ipswich, they used to be the number one and they had the number two and the number two, she got blown up in Harwich Harbour. What during the war? During the War, Second World War number two. Was she carrying anything at the time? Yeah she was. Yeah I know, I don't know whether she was going out or coming in but they got one there now and I think they th the one they got there now I don't know whether the Corporation, that's theirs or whether that's put out to contract and I think that's put out to contract now. What th they still take it do they? Oh yes, they, oh yes, yeah it's all pumped in and pumped out now. Mm. How was it put in in the olden days? Well that was p that's was through the tube I suppose. I know what when we were dredging down there, we used to have er what we call our safe chains and when we were first dredging down there you'd put your chain in, hands were all purple. Purple? All purple. Why? That was the mud, cos they used to put so much sewage into the river W why did it make it purple? And course that used t that used to go down on the bed and when you pulled that be there so many years, your hands all went purple and that'd be days before that went off. Days Did you eat your sandwiches? Yeah, true, yeah Yes yo your hands used to be purple an and the brass work on the dredger cos we had, we had a little bit of brass work they all used to turn green and to clean it, used to turn green. They used to say the brass is on the other side of the river used t Well yeah th well that used to turn green, tell you that now. And it was all to do with the sewage? All to do with the s I mean th the Dock Commission they claimed a lot of money off the Corporation I think over that cos they Did they? they came down with a lot o little bottles and they filled all them bottles up with the mud and they took 'em away and anal analyzed 'em and proved that it was erm human manure you see. Contaminated? Sewage. Wasn't that how ? Well I suppose it was then but course at that time of day well what we used to suffer with, you suffer with diphtheria and scarlet fever and yo you don't hear that today do you? No that's all gone now. You don't hear scarlet fever, diphtheria like that. That's all gone, done away with. I suppose in that way it's an improvement isn't it? Oh it is an improvement, oh yes. Definite, I mean there's not the sewage go in the river now, I don't think anyway. Cos that was about, that must have been about erm er I'd say time about, yes I should say about nineteen, nineteen thirty four and they built a pipeline out from the sewer outfall and they put two dolphins out there, and they reckon that the water, when it's purified just to go into the river was really clean water. When you say dolphins, what do you mean by that? Well they like little, they were like little concrete stages, they was two and the they were in the river off, off this side, they were this side of the Hall Bridge. And what did they do? But they, they wanted to protect this here erm, the pipeline what went into the channel. Oh to stop the ships from That's right yes. going over to it, I see. When you were talking about your dredging earlier on, you used to take th the soil that you dredged up in the mud, in your dredger out t employ the hoppers out to sea. How did you dispose of it Well the point was you see, we had a dumb hopper, the dumb hopper was towed by an old tug, they had to tow that dumb hopper to sea, what was called dumb cos they ain't got no engines and so that was towed to sea and then course the er the dumb hopper ha had four winches, hand winches and then they, cos they had the chains on the but the steam hopper What are the ? The are on the side of the hold. Now the sides of the hold and the, the chains used go down, they didn't have wires they had chains go down and with a big ring on the top and then when you'd the door out, knock the pin out and the door would drop down the mud and cos the ship would come up because she got two side tanks on er a tank each side to bring the ship out of the water. Now What with water from the tank? just air, air was in the tanks the hot water in sea weren't it? Mm true. So if y if you if you er what did happen. I mean if you fill a, fill a tank with water that's gonna sink and now the steam hopper had a strong back on A strong back? a, a, a strong back which was er er say a, a what we call a back in the centre of the ship and course the d n th the steam hopper could heave their own doors up by the steam winch. They could put the hook in there and they could lower doors away so there's no need for the, cos many a time in the dumb hopper when you knock that pin out, they go down with the force and it'd break and it'd break the er the chain, the chain link. Then we had to then fiddle about and get the chain up with a big pole and heave that up and we always knew that if a dumb hopper come back and they'd what we used to call they'd lost a door, one of the doors used to break, used to be about I would say erm eight doors in the hold, separate doors and if one of them broke they'd fiddle about with a big, what we would call a pole with a hook on trying to get hold of the chain and we'd see that there pole sticking up out of the hold, we knew they lost a door so what they used to do they used to leave with the dredger and we'd finish that off before we load it, had to. What you had to fix the door? We had to fix the door then then of course the with the big tow on the other dumb hopper to sea. Crikey! Could you fix the door from inside or fr or did you have to do it from outside? No you have to, you'd, you'd, you'd do it in the middle in the hold, not in the middle of the hold on the side of the hold, where your, where your air tank was. Once you've got that you could fiddle around with that and we used to lower a station down, tie the end, we'd do the best we could to do it. We'd always get one, we never lost one yet. And course they were on hinges, the doors, on er the hinges on in the centre hole under the water and course you always knew where then to, where to fit what we used to call fish for th fish for the chain. So with the pole? With the pole and a big hook on. And how did And when we got and once we got that then I don't know we'd, we'd tie, we'd tie a wire round the pole and heave that up you see so far but you couldn't pull the chain up. So you, you heaved it up by winch? We heaved it up on hand winch, yes. That's how the work used to be. Cos we used to swear like hell if they'd lost a door Made a lot of work for you. That made work for us. And you say these doors were in the water? The, the d doors were in the water right low, they were, they were low say you wouldn't have had say about three foot of water in the hold. Because once the ship come up that's still a certain amount of water in the hold which that must be, cos then once you heave your door up then of course you load your ship again and then cos your ship was going down the more mud you put in, course mud is heavier than water Yes that's why I reckon we, we got a river bed because erm they say mud is heavier than water. Mm. Was there a lot of mud on the river bed? Pardon? Was there a lot of mud on the river bed? Oh goodness yes there's mud, there was like Cliff Quay you had, you had your mud and when you come to chalk and further down the river you come to ballast near, near Al near the Albridge and further down you come to peat, then you come to green clay, then you come to Cattoes you c you start to dredge ballast again, Pinn Mill you'd dredge ballast and then right away down to the sea you'd dredge ballast. Where was the peat? Peat was Al Alfreston Did they use it for anything? and when we and when we were dredging that up, that used to be all like er er trunks of trees and you could, I mean you could see it when they come up it was very light. I mean you could never load er, you could never load a hopper down to its plimsoll mark with peat, that was so light and cos you couldn't put any more in so you used to have to take it to sea perhaps we we well you would call it half loaded. Yeah. Bu but your hopper was full. But with only half the weight on there? And only half the weight. So when you had peat on, were your doors in the water then? Oh yes The hopper door? Yes they were in the water. Cos they we yeah They were right on the bottom of the boat They were on the bottom of the boat, you see. We when you say on the bottom, sort of was the bottom put on the side slightly? No no, cos e on the bottom of the ship used to have your, a, your keel of your boat so that is in the centre of the ship Yes. so therefore then your doors were connected by hinges to the keel and from the keel to the cones, that's where your door was, so that'd swing on the keel and then your chains were fixed to the other end of the door and you hauled that up on your cones. Mm Then put the pin in, then you could load your hopper. Yes. wonder who designed it? Pardon? I wonder who designed it? Well I don't know that must have been some clever fella to do it didn't he? Like there is today, I mean things are altered when you get a ship now, when you get the dredger what was in the East Anglia Daily Times er yesterday, where a ship open in half, so th they load it with a grab and that go to sea and ship open in half, drop it down so there's no doors. There again you see they can still muster out the air tanks, keep it afloat. To keep it clear of the water when they empty it now? Yeah. Yes Moving on from the, the dredger back to when you were a stevedore you used to sort out the different work for the, for the men, where did you used to congregate first thing in the morning? Well I used to have me own office down at Cliff Quay. Whereabouts was that? That was at er was near factory. And would all the men come to your office? No they'd go to the Pool Manager. And where was the ? The Pool Manager what lo he at the finish, where he is now, he's at the lock gates. Do they still meet there today? And they still meet there today and they get er Is it a covered building or do they just meet outside? Er no there's a covered building and he reallocate the men right away, quarter past seven in the morning. In your days did they have the building then? Oh yes they, that was further in t that was further in the dock Whereabouts was that? and that, that Pool Manager wasn't employed, there's a Pool Manager now but he only give the information to the National Dock Labour Board. Mm. But the man what was Pool Manager is employed by the I P A now. Mm. Whe where did, in your day where was the, the pool? The pool was just bel just beside the harbourmaster's office just a little further where it is now, cos what we had, what we call the yard, that's where the engineers' workshops was, the carpenters' shop, which is still there and then little further up th up the Newcut East there was the pool place for the National Dock Labour Board. Oh The National Dock Labour Board is still there isn't it? That's still there, yes Oh I know where you mean, That he'd do that in the morning as a little part time job for 'em, and all he'd do is erm, the Pool Manager, which is at Lock Gates, he know what ships come in the day before and he really know the man and then in the morning they'd say well so and so ship has arrived but perhaps he might know it, then he'd send, he'd know what men to send and this, cos I, I used to get the latest information, they didn't worry him, they worried me about lates latest information and of course we knew what ships was due for the next day so we knew what allocation we wanted. Did you ever have not enough work for the number of men you had? Oh goodness yes, they have today. Today I mean they, I mean when you take, years and years ago when there used to be man handling everything same as timber, I mean we had about three hundred dockers then. Good many then? Yeah, three hundred, now today you only got hundred and thirty because they the manual work. That's all mechanical you see. When you had too many men for the jobs that needed doing, did the men get paid? They get paid through the National Dock Labour Board. What they call stand-by money. Stand-by? What they call stand-by mo they do today, they still guarantee a day's, it ain't much mind you but they still get guaranteed so much a day. On flat rate? Flat rate. And then they got more if they worked If they, they got they got piecework or they got th th the, they get either piecework or they get so much for the job so much, an hourly rate for the job. Was there a time when they didn't get paid if there was no work? Well, before the National Dock Labour Board. Mm mm. See he was the man what brought in decasualization during the war. Mm. That's when you had a coalition government and erm then course he, they denationalized the docks then and course now ther one or two docks the they're putting 'em, making 'em redundant because I said there's not the manual work today, that's like London, Liverpool. See dockers are only protected, when they say they go on strike, they're only protecting their own jobs in my opinion. They're protecting their own jobs. Why should we have bloody machines doing work when human beings should be doing it? I mean a machine,d well they do, they do carry timber but you gotta have the men there haven't you? That's true, yes. I mean y when th I mean a gang on a timber boat, they'd be ten men and one hatch man and that's eleven men. Hatch man. Ha er a man on the hatch,t to tell the crane driver what to do or where to go, well you w you would have four men in the hold making up slings of timber. Then you would have six men ashore that carry it away and stack it but course now today they don't do that. That's come already in lengths, already slung so all the dock you got, you ain't got so many dockers there. So you just need your crane driver really to un to unload the ? That's all you want the crane driver and about three or four dockers, that's what you want, instead of eleven dockers. When you said they used to carry it away, to stack it, on dock. They used to stack it on the quay. On the quay? Yeah. And then course that used to be different, er used to be different size timber two by sixes, four by twos, inch by one, er inch by ou I mean inch inch by two and you had to tell these dockers what size it was and they'd take it out of that particular stack. Mm and then what happened And then after that when the ship was finished, then they used to sort that all out, the timber, different sizes, then y and then or were there, their own people to stack the timber and when they stacked it, they stacked it and they used to put splines between each layer of timber and that was to season the timber. Oh what to let the air through? Let the air through. Mm. But now they don't even do that. What happens to it now? That's all bundled up and that's why half the bloody stuff is rotten before you get it. Didn't last very long. Well tha that is so today. Was everything that was unloaded off the boats stacked on the quay? Not everything. I mean we import but we imported once erm, like lemon peel and orange peel What is that? in, in barrels. Now that was er, it was er or they were oranges what had been cut in half and they had the centre taken out so it was just the orange peel and that was pressed into these barrels, filled with water and that was then brought up on to the quay, left on the quay and that used to go to . Every so often they'd come down and they'd take the bung out and put more water in. Why did they do that? That was your candy peel. Candy peel? Candy peel what you eat. Cakes, you we that's lemon peel and that's how all these oranges were cut in halves, scooped out the orange and then all put in, one bit in the other. Why did they keep adding water? Well to keep, keep it all, keep this candy peel moist, well keep the peel moist. I mean once or twice when we unload it the beer barrel break and when they, be surprised you'd never get it back together again. Never. Cos they s cos that's compressed in, these barrels, and that was all done abroad and once these barrels broke, well you couldn't do nothing about it but we never, they never, there was none of that wasted, never. They always used to cart it away I suppose to wash it and use it. Did they? That was candy peel. We had, I think we had about two ships of that, that's all. Yeah. Did you ever get any cargoes that split or broken? Oh goodness yes. Yeah, I mean they, even wool, we had begin th f beginning the war. Wool? Wool we had big bales of wool come in and once wool was packed together and banded, that was heavy. Did it ever break open? some of it did, yes. The bands'd break, cos they never used to worry about it. What happened to it then? I don't know they used to cart it away. I mean er down the dock now they got a, one big warehouse there now. In my time they erm, the sugar beet, sugar beet pulp. We exported that, now you don't see so much sugar beet pulp now. I think that's animal feed. Yes it is. Sugar beet pulp. Well y it always used to be stowed down at, come from er Sprawton and stowed on the dock, From the sugar beet factory? From the sugar beet factory. Cos I mean sugar beet pulp was very light Mm it was dried wasn't it? Yeah dried, that's just like little pallets. Yeah. That's what it used to be. And who did they used to export that for? Well we loaded one ship for America and we put so much in But when stuff came down the dock to people off, on to a boat, would that be stored in a warehouse first and then go on to the boat or would it be No they come with the lorries and we'd load it direct. Direct? Direct, the same as erm fertiliser coming in, a lot of lorries would come down there and get the fertiliser, different say merchants, different farmers, they used to go through the agent and they'd buy so much off the agent, this different fertiliser if couldn't supply it, what they wanted. So the men had to be there at the right time you had t ? Oh well, you you'd be waiting. So it all had to be organized really didn't it? Oh it did, yes. To make it work. Yes. You had different, different companies do the, do the job so you used to get say I mean th you get a receiver for that cargo, well it, perhaps he got so much for receiving that cargo, then that was his job then to allocate it to different people but he, cos that was another job for him which you don't do now. There ain't receivers now. How do they work it now? How they work I don't know. How they work it now. I don't know. Things have altered so much now. So i years ago then there was a lot of smaller jobs for a lot more people really? Oh yes. See I me so many agents, you got a lot of agents today now so So certain things on testing. You're probably very proud of your masterpiece, and erm, there's ot there's the temptation to keep making minor improvements, just to make it a bit better. Er, but any change you make to a computer system, is likely to introduce bugs into the system, so that it doesn't give the right answers any more. Er, so you have to resist that temptation. If there's something that isn't working, there's a well known adage with computers, don't fix it. Erm, what you need to do is, if you can, save up all the changes, for one batch and then do them all together. Cos there's economy to scale on, first economy is the scale on understanding the system. Before you can make changes to the system, you have to understand it, and that takes an awful long time. Er, so there's economy to scale on that, and there's the economy to scale on testing too. If you have to test an something, then there's economy to scale if you test the ten things instead of one. Erm, when you start testing, you shouldn't input the real numbers, to start with. You shouldn't start with nice simple constant numbers, maybe thousands all the way across, cos the eye's very good at detecting irregular patterns, and when you put nice simple numbers in, the eye can see these irregular patterns clearly, and highlighting errors. On this spreadsheet here, I haven't input my s constant round numbers. If you look at that spreadsheet, then nothing seems wrong with that, seems okay. seems wrong certainly. But if I put nice round numbers in, the green cells are the input cells. Thousand across all the columns here, erm, nice round numbers input elsewhere. Then most of the, the rows also come out with nice round numbers, except this one row here, stands out. Numbers look a bit odd there. I'll have to investigate. So you start with nice, you may then change one or two of the numbers, to check various aspects. You start with nice constant round simple numbers. There's all sorts of ex it's probably impractical to test every single cell. You have to concentrate too on extremes, the first and the last in a row or a column. Erm, there's no many different aspects of two extremes. Does anybody here write spreadsheets for other people to use? So it's solely for your own use. If you write a spreadsheet for somebody else, you might be using a sixty six megahertz four eight six duel processor erm, spaceship, and, somebody is using a steam driven I B M A T or something, and it runs quite acceptably on your machine,a reasonable speed, and you give it to somebody else on that steam driven thing, and it takes ages to do anything, and er, you press a button and they wait half an hour sort of thing. This happened to you some way or other? You need to research into this, don't you? But it's given you a spreadsheet it takes ages to load it even load it. So, there's that to consider as well if you're writing spreadsheets for other people. Erm. When you finish testing, well, as you test you start off with simple numbers and you then start changing some of the numbers, to test other aspects, and eventually you're happy that everything seems to be working alright. Now, what you probably do is just reset all the input cells back to zero. Erm, and you lose that test data set. It's a good idea to keep that test data, because later on, you're almost certainly going to make changes and you'll therefore need to re-test the system, and a quick way to re-test the system is to put all that test data in again and see if you get the same answers. And if you don't, then you can see very quickly what's gone wrong, and probably where it's gone wrong, as well. So, keep that test data set. That's another good reason for keeping all your inputs in a separate area. It then makes it easy to save all your inputs into a separate file, when they're all in one separate input area. If you've got them scattered about all over the place, it makes it much more difficult to try and save them,and, later on, get the data back in. It's very easy to do all in one separate area combine and put the test data file back in again, but very difficult when scattered about. Erm,said that. No matter how erm, simple or small a change you're making, you'll probably think oh, that's bound to work, no need to test that, such a simple change. You'd be surprised. You have to test every single thing. Now even if you test things thoroughly as you're building your spreadsheets, then it's quite possible that something you do later on affects something you do earlier on. So, you need to go back when you finish the whole system, and test everything again. Erm, but you won't remember all the things to test, as you forget very quickly, so as you're building the spreadsheet, you ought to write down a list of things you're going to go back and test. Sorry. that's a point testing certain aspects. It'll often pay to think about er, the order in which you test. Because if yo if you got to the end of testing and then you found an error, you might have to go all the way back to the beginning again, because what it affects affects something that you did earlier on, so you have to go back and test everything again. But if you thought about the order that you test, then, if something doesn't work, you may only have to go back a few steps and re-test. When do you enter? Yeah, well, that's a fact of life for the boasts out. I suppose you might a very simple spreadsheet, then er, just adding up a column of numbers is hardly get that wrong. Er, that's true. But then there are underlying boasts in One Two Three and in DOS and a certain rare combination of circumstances, it's possible that . It's highly unlikely that summing up a single column of numbers. But it's possible. This could be certain circumstances, and there are, when you get the wrong answer. That column of numbers. If you knew what the combination of circumstances were, then you could perhaps re-do your spreadsheet with a different way to avoid it. But, er, you're not going to know all bugs that there are in the software. But having said that, if the something doesn't work. Well, human nature being what it is, then erm, you're likely to blame Lotus. So oh, Lotus is not working properly. But ninety nine times out of a hundred, it's your spreadsheet that's at fault. You had this experience before? Blamed it on Lotus . Test, er, documenting in the next topic. The same reasons as er, testing, er, you ought to do it as you go. Because if you come back later on, and try and document your spreadsheets, then an awful lot is forgotten. So you have to spend time or time to re-understand what you were doing before you can document it properly. When I write a system for a client, then I do the documentation in advance of writing the system. Erm,an another advantage of doing that is, it ensures that you do in other things, which is design a system. Nobody documents the spreadsheets. Nobody designs the system. People just jump straight in, do the first bit, erm, having done the first bit, they then think about how they're gonna fit in the next bit, and you end up with a rambling mess that er, doesn't fit together, doesn't work together too well. If you plan things as in most in life, if you plan ahead, you can actually er, do it a lot quicker. And that certainly applies to building computer systems. Planning ahead, building your spreadsheets. You probably end up writing the system file quicker, and have a much simpler system which also maintain in far less time. You can also have far less errors etcetera. So, if you do the documentation in advance in the documentation yeah, in the documentation, I explain what spreadsheets there are, where things are on the spreadsheets, the various procedures for how to do certain things. You do this, this, this, go here and there, and go there, do that and so on. You've actually thought through exactly erm, how the spreadsheet is going to be designed. Er, now certain documentation are very valuable. One of those is the spreadsheet map. It's a bird's eye view as to where everything is on the spreadsheet. So this is the whole spreadsheet, and erm, these green boxes within the spreadsheet, are the different areas within the spreadsheet. Erm, so in the top left of this spreadsheet I've got some documentation, below that some blank rows, a key parameter section here. Below that to the right, is some imported data, and so on. So I know where things are on the spreadsheets. And not only that, I've written some text on the spreadsheet showing the process that's going on. So the first thing that happens is data gets er, imported into the spreadsheet here, and second thing that could happen is er, the unwanted records get deleted. Step three, is something called run flags, so something specific to this spreadsheet gets extracted, and so on. So I've got a good idea what's going on on that spreadsheet, what's on it, where it is, and what's happen what happens in the processes. They're very useful pieces of documentation. As I was saying before, the most important thing to understand is the overview. Once you understand the overview, you can start to work your way, and understand the individual detail. Er, it's a good idea to got documentation actually on the spreadsheet itself, because then it doesn't go missing. I'll put the file name, the date, and time, that's what we were talking about before. If you want a file naming convention, you might want to explain the different elements of the file name. Erm, if you're responsible, you might want to put your name down, if you're the creator of this spreadsheet. You probably don't want to do this, I would imagine. But anybody who inherits your spreadsheet in the future erm Anybody who inherits your spreadsheet in the future may want to understand something about it, so you're obviously going to be a good source of providing that information. Or there's anybody in your own organization who is responsible name the PCs and the files etcetera may want to know, is this your file. Do you want to delete it or whatever. It might be useful to know who was doing that. Erm, even if you inherit some spreadsheets from this person that's left, that's useful knowledge because you don't have to spend time searching for whoever might have created this spreadsheet. Erm, this is a general method spreadsheet that Harlow's code handled it applications and department say that erm, Did you hear that? Yeah. She had to stay here to midnight. Right, erm. So, er, what the description was there by the way, it's not meant to be a description of the person. What it is, is this thing that follows, is that any changes you make, any modifications are likely sources of problems. If somebody calls you up and says something's not working, always ask, well what did you change recently, and ninety five percent of the time, it's that that's the cause of the problems. The that they changed recently. So you want to make a note of what's changed, so when you make a change, who made it,. A description of the change. Why does this spreadsheet exist? So that's an important thing to know. What's the overall purpose of this spreadsheet? So here is some text explaining that. On this slide I've kept the text pretty small, because stays on this line, but er, you've got more text than I've got there, to explain the purpose of this spreadsheet. and very importantly is er, a list of instructions on how to use it, in order to erm, update it for the current month. You do this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this and this. To do some other tasks, you do this, this, this, this and this and so on. So you have a list of procedures for erm, what you have to do, and this one will certainly be very useful to anyone else, who's going to use the spreadsheet. But it's also useful for yourself, because you can forget a couple of steps, even though you've built this spreadsheet, and er, when you update this spreadsheet for the following months, you know, occasionally you might forget a step. Well, it's like you check the lists, you can quickly, even if you think you remembered it,you can still quickly read through to see whether you've done all those different things, and you do sometimes forget, so it's useful for that as well. Er, if you were writing a written article, then you may well include references, or sources of information that, that help you write that article. Same way on your broad spreadsheets, you may include sources of references, mainly people that you've spoken to, that provided you information. Maybe various manuals, such as the Lotus manual. You may be using some particular part in the spreadsheet that you consider to be unusual, er you may want to include a page reference, so that er,you can understand it again Hello, yeah, yeah, I'll get him to call you back, then, bye, bye . Er, then then it, when you're looking at the back, unusual part of the Lotus again, you know which page of the manual to go, or all of the help screens. Tells somebody how to get to particular help screens or people often have difficulty finding things on the help screens, so, some instructions for where to find a particular piece of information on the help screens can be useful. You can create a basic form of map on the spreadsheet. In fact the whizzy-wig, whenever you use it, you don't have to actually draw a diagram, that map that we just saw with boxes and arrows and things, you could draw that on the spreadsheet with the whizzy-wig. On a text spreadsheet though, you can't draw things, but er, you could use some letters positioned roughly where the different parts of the spreadsheet are. So you could, you could create a crude form of map on the spreadsheet, particularly on a text spreadsheet like this. Good idea to have a list of all the file names, cos er, you may want to copy this system to some other computer. But you you'll probably, I would imagine, over a period of time, put a number of extra files in that directory that you're going to need. So identify which of the files you need, er, would be useful, so that's what this would do. Sorting them Okay. Thanks very much, and if you er were to er, accidentally lose some files, you would know which files have gone missing. Er, another useful piece of documentation, is a diagram listing all the files that you've got in your system. So there's a box for each file, and there's a flow of data from one file to another, a little arrow showing how the data passes from one file to another. Er, it'd be a good idea to also write the file names. These are just the descriptions, but the file names would be useful to appear on those ends of those boxes as well. And if you were to write a manual, er, though that's probably unlikely for most of you. Basically, if you write a manual for somebody else to use, then er there's a standard layout of manuals, computer manuals, that is to have a Getting Started section, tells you how to instal in some of the basics like how to start it running, erm, the How To section is very important. The procedures and how to do certain, certain tasks. You ever used a Lotus manual? No. A lot of people don't. Never seen it most people, I don't think. Er, but they have a lot of steps on how to do things. You do this, this, this and this. For all sorts of different tasks. So that's probably the most important part of the manual. Er, with reference section, perhaps describes all parts of the system, and the index is very useful, even though it's only a dozen pages long, your manual. So if you're looking for something,bit of a pain having to wade through half a dozen pages, if you can go to the index and then jump directly to the relevant page, and then save you a bit of time. On most modern word processing software, it makes it very easy to create an index. Ho who uses any word processing software. What software do you use? Couple Playwrite. Playwrite. I'm not sure I'd call that modern word processing. Does that cre create indexes for you? No. Not that you're aware. Oh, right. Okay. It it's that what you're used to No Word for Windows Word, Word for Windows, which certainly is, that is a modern word processing package, right. Er, er, any questions on that. Er, have a quick revision, then our final test Oh, right, okey-doke, alright, thanks very much. Bye-bye. See you, Bobbie Bye. Bye, Bobbie. Cheerio. Have a nice weekend. Thank you very much. Did you want to go on this side? So the last time we had a break was er, well, actually, we didn't do the useful formulae, did we, last time? So we can include that in it. Right, are you ready? Right, I think it's the left turn to go first. Erm, if you got er, a label in B three and another label in B four. How do you enter a formula that joins them together? Plus B three ampersand B four. Right, good. Right. Er, if you got a, a number in one of the cells that you're joining. You got a label in one cell and a number in another cell, you want to formally join the two together, er, what's the formula? B three B four. B three B four? Yeah. So the number is B four, let's say. Yes, it is. That's right plus do you think B three B three, B four's got the number. plus B three, erm and you got a brackets, that way and erm, B four has the at stream At stream, yeah. Open brackets no, at stream, open brackets Yeah. B four Yeah. Close brackets. Oh, yeah, er, give you half for that. Put it across to this side, you know the question Never done it before. You didn't get it quite right The brain There would be a plus in front of the ampersand comma zero you missed th the ampersand Ah. now string B four comma zero four no decimals. Okey-doke. Er, over to the left, erm if you're using file combine copy to copy data across, and you want to copy both numbers and er, labels. There may be some formulae, but you don't want the formulae, how do you do it, the file combine copy. What do you do? There's three steps, I want. Well, the way I'd always done it before was, change it to value, before I combined it. But then you Yes. Yeah. When you got three steps. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, is, is it range value. Ah, well that's one of the steps you've had it and you combine A Ah, well that's another method. I'm saying, if you're using file combine copy, because you want numbers as well as labels Yes, that's the first step, put it on manual Then you do file combine Then you do the file combine, yeah And then you do the range copy range value You do range value, do you? Er, and how do you do the range value? added value to the field that you're into the field that you are in. You copy it into the field that you're already in. You copy it to itself. Okay, you can now try. Yes, yeah, there you go. Er,range. Erm what's the disadvantage of the, the extract method? That is er saving a range from the prompt file, using extract, and then going into the other file and doing a file combine in that extracted file. What's the disadvantage of that method? It on things. the extracted file take it to the combined product. Yes, you er, change the from file, and you save it, but then you forget to do the extract. Th that's the, the risk with it. That's the same problem with your method, by the way. If you use range on the from file to copy it, you may change that file, save and forget to range value to a different range. Right, okey- doke, over to the left. Erm, what doesn't file combine add to copy? Sorry? What doesn't file combine add, copy. Labels. Labels, is one thing. There's two things. Erm Formulas. Formulas. Formulas, that's it. It doesn't copy labels. Or whatever. Right, the other side. Er, if you create a file linking formulae in One Two Three Release Two, erm, when you retrieve a file that contains the file with the formulae, er, does it update the file links, as you retrieve it? That's the question. Yeah, when you retrieve it, does it update the file links automatically, or do you have to do something to make it update? Update it manual. Yeah, I thought you did Yes, why I am asking you or I did I say it does automatic but it wasn't. Isn't that right? Yeah, well that's right therefore it was on automatic. Yes, that's right. It is automatic, in Release Two, but it's not in Release Three, that was the other question. Never mind. Oh, sorry two part mistakes. Across to the er, the left, erm, can you erm, create a file linking formula, that links not just one cell, but a whole range of cells. So you create a range name in the from file that covers a range of that say ten cells. Erm, does that work? No. You can only do one Yes, you only link one cell to one cell. That's right. Okey- doke. Erm, in One Two Three Release Three, erm, when you retrieve a file, it doesn't it doesn't automatically update a file. Er, give me two methods of updating the linking formulae in Release Three or Four. Two methods. Does it Er, in One Two Three Release Three and Four, it doesn't update the, the linking formulae, when you retrieve the file. Er, give me two methods for, for how you can update the linking formulae? Would it No. I'll pass it across. Over here One method? No. No, the one method was to open the other file, the on the prompt file and the two files. You had both files in memory and automatically updates. Yeah. And the other method was to go to the menus and choose, file, admin link refresh. Alright. Erm, over to the er, left erm how do you make a directory? Go into DOS first. Into DOS. I want to create a directory called put off the root directory. Go into DOS, right. Go into DOS backslash C D. Backslash C D when you can do anything, anything Right. So what d how do I make a directory put, then M D backslash Right. Fine. the root directory. Okey-doke. Er, over to the right. One Two Three and you want to change the current directory, to point at this directory, put. What do you do? backslash directory I think you can just type in file. Yes, file directory, I'll put there then. Okey-doke. Over to the other side, erm. How do you delete all files that have two two in positions three and four, of the file name? Delete space question make, question mark, what was it? Two two Er, twenty two. Twenty two, asterisk dot asterisk. Yeah. That's it. The other side. Sorry. Only occasionally. Erm, when you start testing your spreadsheets, what er, type of numbers should you input? Even or round numbers. Round numbers. Nice ro that's one aspect of it, yes. Round numbers. what do you call a round number? A hundred. A hundred, yeah, okey-doke. Erm, one aspect golden rule That's it. Yes, that's without a consistent across all there. Good. Well done. Er, right, over to the other side. Erm, What's an advantage of having your inputs in a separate area, for the purpose of view testing? Erm, what's the advantage of having your inputs in an separate area from the view of testing? You can use them again, if you're re-testing. Yes. Aw use it again, er, yes, can you say a bit more? What do you want me to change? a bit more. Er, you could use them again, that's true, but you could do anywhere, I suppose them again but er, But that's why you never put them you put them in numbers. And that means? Sorry? Save them. Save them, extract, yes. You can save them more easily, than when they're scattered about. Yeah, you can do that. Right, okey-doke. Over to the to the right, erm, give me er three very important parts of the computer documentation? the design specifications, is that what you mean? That's wa that's the overall thing you're talking about is it? No,t the actual main parts of the documentation. Who wrote the spreadsheet. Because that's detail really, er, I was looking for the main parts. What, on the spreadsheet or design the spreadsheet. Er, off or on the spreadsheet. Sort of like, things like, if you've got a, if contents spreadsheet, where it comes from, what files Er, well, you used, well, you're getting a bit more detailed, but wh what is that thing? Sorry? cleared out having cleared directory Clear directory. No, perhaps my question was too vague. I wa wanted sort of major pieces of documentations of the individual details on that documentation schedule, major bits. The input area. The report to calculations. Oh, no that's I guess I'll just have to rephrase my question. Er. Well, what's a spreadsheet map? That's another question. What do you put on a spreadsheet map? That's one of the important of the documentation. and then it then it goes down Yeah, then it goes down to to orgies or whatever what they are has any of that worked? I don't know, somebody's spreadsheets That's three things that are in there. So wh how do you, what's on the map? Erm, come on. you've got squares You've got squares You've got writing. what the lines what the lines showing Showing the cells the different cells. Shows you, yeah, you got boxes showing you where things are on the spreadsheets, and you got some tags saying what those are. You got arrows showing flow of data. What else do you have on the spreadsheets? Erm, the name of what the, what the erm, spreadsheet looks like. Er, not in that, well, there might be on that, but er, but that there what resources are on the spreadsheet. On that batch. How are things that were numbered one, two, three, four, five, six Oh, extra process. Yes, extra processes that are going on. I'll give you er, four for that. well, you didn't get the rest of the question at all. Erm, what give me erm, give me erm, seven things yeah, seven things to put on this spreadsheet. Seven pieces of documentation actually on this spreadsheet. Amendment That's one, yes. Date. What the amendment was. The date. The date, time, file name. Date, time, file name. Yes, that's two. Who created it. Sorry, who created it. Yes, that's three. Run instructions. Run instructions. Yes, that's four. What it's for. Yes, the purpose of it, that's five. File names. Had that one. The date it's been and updated. We had that one. Who updated it. What it We had that one. References. I suppose you could, but it's not one of the things I had listed. Did somebody say references? Yeah. What did you mean? Who do you talk to if you need any information. Oh yes, that's right, yes reference. That's the right thing. Six. One more Give us a clue. I've just talked about it. Who to talk to? Sorry? We've just talked about it in this room. The other thing. the map. The map. That's it. Well done, Shall I give them that? That's a quarter. Quarter. I'll give you that, yeah. Right, over to the right, erm erm, give me another important piece of documentation. Map was one The invoice. The invoice. I'll pass it across. created How about the user manual? Well, yes, er well that's one I was after. There's two pieces that are missing. Not including the user manuals. Can't give you that one. Two other useful pieces of documentation. What amount. No, he he's said that one before. Is there a design document? Well, may well be, but er, I wasn't after that Has anybody think of anything? We only did it er, seven minutes ago, it shows you how quickly you forget. Er, list of the file names, that's one of them, and one of them, open this to everybody, anybody who can get it, gets a point. What directories in it. No, well, maybe, but er, it wasn't what I was after. updated modifications Er, well, that's part of what's on the spreadsheet,It's some sort of diagram. Sorry? Not exactly, well, not exactly Diagram representing the things that are in the system folders Files is that what you said? I said folders actually Yeah, files. Well, you already got one Well, I don't think anybody got it really. There was too many . So let's see, the left got seven, that's nine, and the right got er, three, four Who's that for? Right, thank you all very much for having formulas now. Colin Cook, National Adult School Organisation. Monday the thirty-first of January, nineteen ninety four. This is then our meeting on Monday afternoon, the thirty-first of January at Claredon Park Adults School. The the topic that we said we would investigate today, comes from the hand-book. Er, it's page sixty-one and it's it's title is: Scientific Research, the Whole Truth, er and if you like I will draw the points out of the study and leave you to comment where there questions and where there aren't any questions to interject any comments that you feel appropriate. Er, let's remember that it is a study that is, to start us talking, and I'm sure we'll have no difficulty in finding some comments as we go through them. In the course of a life-time, so many facts and sense inhibitions impinge upon our minds, that our brains have become selective, and we're unconscious of much of this happening around us. In fact, we almost inhabit different words from other people, as our tastes and our interests differ so much. And we start off very soon then, with a question, In what ways do you find yourself selective. Which sounds, sights, or even events you block out from your mind, and to which, are you particularly sensitive. You're sensitive to the clicking of heels on the stairs, Mary, I know that, aren't you? I shall not forget that one. Yeah. I suppose the thing a lot of us block out of our minds, is when you're out, is traffic noise, isn't it. Traffic noise. You try to block this out don't you. Yes, yes, yes. People walking above me, Ah, right, are you, are you Oh. particularly conscious of that. Yes. Yes. Yes, definitely. Well, that's something you'd like to block out from your mind. I would. But you can't. Definitely. Yes, yes. And of course, now you're with noisy music. Mm. Yeah, music, music, music. American accents. American accents, ah, yes, yes, you'd like to block those out, would you? Oh I, Oh I, like those, they're friendly. Yeah. Mm. Interesting that, very interesting. Yeah, Erm, I I think I'd block out, erm, traffic noises, to some extent, because we live Aye, you would then. And erm, if I were to stop every time I heard a car go by, I'd be stopping all the time, erm, to some extent, it becomes a part of your pattern of existence. Oh, it does, yes. And I tell you anoth another thing that I find that I blocked out from my mind sometimes, that's the sound of central heating, particularly fan assisted heating. It isn't here. When it switches on and off. Here here is quiet. But in some buildings, you find that there is a constant fan noise. Yes, that's true, yes. Yeah. And we it, we become so used to it, that we we exclude from our minds, we don't think of it. And the same was true, with as you said, the fridge. Mm. Fridge is going, so you, they always have the whirring in the background, isn't there. Mm. Yeah. Because It isn't until you make a conscious effort to listen, you realise how much noise you are subject to in this modern world, do you really, it's true. When you make a point of try to listen to the world, Mm. It's surprising how much noise we are er subject to. Yes, yes. You say sound of fridges, traffic And I think we we have grown up to be a noisy Oh yeah. Oh yes. race. Perhaps noisy people generally speaking, the television is on, or the radio is on, or the record player is on, or the cassette player is on. Mm. Mm. Almost any house you go into, there is something goin , there is something on. I think we are a rarity, aren't we, Must be. 'cos in the morning there's, there's no radio on. We very rarely have the radio on, except we have the radio on at breakfast time, listen to the news and the weather forecast. Yeah, I do. But, then the radio doesn't go again, on again all day. Mm. And our T V's never on in the morning. No, no. Do you, do you. Er, so we'll probably an exception to the rule. Rolf. The difficulty of this is, to have the telly on, and don't switch it off. Yes, yes, yes, yes. I think that, that, that is, that's almost an insult, isn't it? Yes. Yes, it is. Why did you come. Yes, yes indeed. Erm, at least if they turned the sound off. Down. Turned the sound down. oh right. Well, I think sometimes, I, at at home, erm, if I'm, particularly if I'm typing, I like music, and if the phone goes, people must wonder what on earth it is, because there's music going on somewhere, which they obviously can hear in the background, but I like, I like that as a background. Oh, yes when you're tired, yeah. And I'm using that in order to select. I choose the music I want to listen to. Rather than hear the sounds outside. Must be soothing, yes. Yeah, yeah. So it's the music, music is my choice, and I'm using that, if you like as a barrier, as a screen er against the outside world. Yeah. Let's have a look at the next question. Erm, what are the ways, do you think, in which a scientist sees things differently from a poet or an artist, and are there ways in which they think alike How does a scientist see things differently from, either a poet or an artist. Well he's way above, in a world of his own, isn't he, really. The scientist. Yeah. Mm. Cut off from civilisation, I think. Yeah, yeah. realistic. Yes. Yeah. Rolf. as a scientist works so much on his own, in his own little castle. Mm. Where as er, poet or an artist has the publicity, if that's the right word Mm. In mind. Mm. Yes, Yes, he has people round him, doesn't he. Whereas a scientist hasn't. Mm I cer certainly think that's that's that's one way of looking at it, but wh wha what about if if you were take a beautiful scene, the sky on Saturday evening was beautiful. Yes, it was. I looked at that, and I'm not a scientist, and my thought was beauty, colour, contrast, erm, I thought I wish I could paint. If I were a scientist, perhaps I'd be looking at it, and say, what does that mean in terms of weather, what does it mean in terms of pressure, is it cumulus cloud or says, what other cloud. The the the difference is perhaps that the scientist will analyse Yeah, whereas we don't. We don't. We don't, just generalise. Yes, generalise, yes, perhaps that's the, yes, particular as opposed to general. Saturday night, I thought was the old saying, red sky at night, shepherds delight,old saying, you know Oh, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes indeed. There's an excellent example in the Erm, but if it's I don't know anything about the weather, so I couldn't look at that and analyse it in any way. I just had to say that is beautiful and I wish I had more words to describe it, but I haven't yet. Er, a scientist then, is often caricatured as an absent minded professor. So occupied with abstruse ideas, that he is incapable of coping with every day activities. Perhaps your thoughts go to the crazy inventor, surrounded by improbable pieces of machinery and electric sparks, or to Newton, sitting in an orchard, or to an efficient white- coated scientist. How much true do you think there is in the picture of a scientist as highly intelligent, completely amoral and withdrawn from the world. It's like well, it's it's it's a generalisation anyway, isn't it? Erm. I think there's supposedly, a lot of truth in it, really is there. I suppose there are, odd ones. Yeah, I can,th they What puzzles me is that er, erm much, much of these bright new people, all seem to dress in such a, a despicable fashion, don't they, all sort of be,dressed and scruffy and er, and er whether they they're so busy with Yes, that that that could be a possibility. I wonder how many things er break in life,would be saved, you know, never look It's it's a question of priorities, isn't it, the, perhaps people feel the way that I dress is not important, the work that I do and the discoveries that I make, those are the important things. Some of our lecturers come on Sunday, you know,they come dressed,fashion in a week, I don't know. Mm, mm. They just, you know,any old Yeah, yeah. I would agree that the scientist being is probably is constant withdrawal from his because he can't cope with what's going on around him, whilst he is in his scientific research. a model of what he's trying to say and I think,sound forgetful they are Yes. and Mm. Yes, yes. Well, that's, is that is the the picture that you you have, the caricature, as they say, the absent minded professor, erm, There's something in it. Oh, I think there is something in it, yes. When they formed the Army Education Corp, during the war, they er, they wore uniform, most of them were warrant officers, and soldiers but in uniform you could come out I mean, they been ordinary soldiers, but they'd been put put on a charge every time the saw them, you know. But er, they were, they were, they were soldiers, and they wore uniform, and badges of rank such a scream,and yet some of them were really nice blokes, you know. in particular Sergeant , he was he was an organist and choir master at Yeovil Cathedral in peacetime, and he was music mad. Wonderful man, but completely uniform, he was a proper character, he looked ridiculous every time he walked down the street, you know. Yes, yes, yes, yes See it's interesting you should say that, erm, the study on Vaughn Williams, in the last year at Sandborne. Erm, points out that Vaughn Williams was the same, er, that when he was in uniform, he he was scruffy. Mm. He couldn't conform. He was in the army, and he was, you know, he was pleased do anything, he undertook some very difficult jobs. Er, he was in the ambulance corp, I think in the First World War, but he was a redback. Yeah, that's what I said to these chaps. Yeah, yeah. But I mean, I think again, it's a matter of the way in which your mind takes over and says, it is not important how I dress and even if I'm in an army uniform, it doesn't matter. Prides Prides irrelevant yes, yes. Research then, which is really the, erm, the the the type of the whole topic today. The Researcher. Scientific Research is often divided into compartments. Pure research is an attempt to produce a coherent framework of the facts and events occurring in the world around us. It's sometimes thought that this type of research takes place mainly in universities and institutes of higher education. That it advances knowledge, but has no intrinsic practical use. Yeah. Applied Research, on the other hand, is thought to produce results which have an immediate application to industry, to technology or to medicine. These results could produce great profits, and are therefore carried out under the aegis of large firms, which hope to benefit from them. It's doubtful whether these distinctions were ever clear, and certainly nowadays, it's realised that pure and applied research goes side by side, within all research organisations. They are both funded by the same bodies. The science research council, industry and philanthropists. However, scientific research is expensive and it's natural that to some extent those who fund it, should expect to see returns and be able to influence its direction. This produces a pressure for results, which may result in reports for discoveries which haven't been fully tested. One recent example of this was when a scientist reported, what was known as cold fusion. That is the fusion of hydrogen atoms in a cold solution. The process normally occurs only at temperatures and pressures comparable with those found at the centre of the sun. If true, this would have been an amazing source of energy. But the experiment proved unrepeatable. And therefore, you begin to question whether it ever really happened in the first place, don't you. Erm, it re , it must, again, be a matter where er a scientist can become very enthusiastic and almost read into the results, what he expects to find there. Anyway the question erm, is, can you think of any ways in which scientists could be relieved of the pressure to get quick results. Should research be concentrated on topics from which an immediate use is seen, or is it possible for those who provide the funds, to take a longer view. Well, you can't rush a scientist, can you, 'cos he's discovering new things, isn't he. And and sometimes it takes a long time, doesn't it. Long time, takes years. Yes. Yes. This is always talk talked about. Mm. Mm. If er, scientists and his team works on a, or think they are on to a discovery or something that needs researching, can get, the necessary funding,office, or firms that they benefit,say this in the previous paragraph, that's fine, but to concentrate on topics which are I don't think that happens. These things are usually, in my opinion, anyway, er, er the results are often accidents. Yes, yes, I think that You suddenly come across something, and,whether it is er, medicine, mostly, or technique think, first of them one stage after another was invented, more or less by accident. Yes, yes, accident plays a large part in it, I'm sure. That erm, very often the discovery of one thing is, perhaps and even unexpected spin-off from pursuing research into another. As a result of such. The Teefal saucepan that you have at home, er came doubtless from scientific research into space travel. Mm. Oh, that's right, yeah, yeah. The use of silicone coverings came from that, certainly. Er, I mean, one of the immediate things, that er, we would like scientists to research, for example, is the common cold. Mm. It would do us all a lot of good. If they could find a cure for the common cold. Greatest benefit to mankind. Yes, it, yeah. Now that is something immediate. But it's no good That's right yeah. putting a couple of scientists into a room and say, Find It. Well, after the war they had these clinics where people went Mm. and volunteers went and got soaked, and sat in cold passages, to try and catch cold, they couldn't catch cold, could they. Yes yes yes. No,th th that's that's trying That has only re recently closed down. forty years. Yes,only a few years ago. Yes, indeed. With adverts in the Yes, yes, yes, I was er, I was prepared remember, when I had my bone-graft, I went all prepared, shaved from head to foot wrapped up like a mummy, from my neck to my feet. Mm. Ready for the op on the Saturday, and Friday I st started to sneeze, they took me temperature, I'd got a cold,between, it took us a fortnight and and, for the operation to come through it, common cold. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yes, yeah And yet they were gonna take, a bone out and put it put it in my and all sorts of things. So they, they, you see, that that that is in in an instant where it would have been enormously beneficial to have something to prevent the cold, That would cured it. or cured the cold. Or prevent the cold, yeah Yes, yes. But a doctor, one of the doctors in the same hospital saying, that the, during the First World War, when they were so desperate, you know, so many casualties, they had to cut short treatment, and they had to bandage men up and leave them bandaged up a long length of, they found it was often better to leave a wound bandaged up in it's own Mm. rather than keep stripping dressings off. Yes, yes. and th they, it was an old Indian treatment, they found it quite, sheer force of circumstances, er, that they discovered it was better sometimes to bind a wound up and leave it alone. Mm. It healed better that way, than being constantly dressed and Yes, yes yeah. It was Yes, but then again, it was it was an incident. Incidental discovery. Incidental discovery. Yes, incidental, completely by accident. yes. I say most of these things are found by accident. Yes, yes, I'm sure they are. A lot of it is, anyway. and if it, if it were possible to to forecast absolutely what the result is going to be, er, scientific research would be much easier. Mm. Yeah. People would be able to say with some, er, degree of certainty, how long the research is going to take, but I think one of the problems at the moment is, you can't always say. Just don't know. Just how long it's gonna take. It might take months, it might take years, it might never even be possible. 'Cos I think another thing, where a lot of pressure comes on scientists, is where, it says a lot of cases, where profit is in the offing, this is a thing, Mm. we wanted to get people chemical,wanted to get a thing through, so they could make a profit from it. I think that's where a lot of the pressure comes in now, I should think, on scientists. Oh yes, yes I'm sure it is. And this is particularly true, you you mentioned medicines and drugs. I think this is particularly true,medicine That's what I was thinking of, actually, in the medical Erm, I I heard something over the weekend, that that erm, mentioned er an American drug company, that has come up with whatever drug and it's moved from being a million pound concern, into a multi-million pound concern, because of these discoveries, Mm. Er, now it's a very good company, it's not a British company. It's a great pity it's not a British company, because it's it's would be a great source of revenue in this country. Er, but that, there must have been enormous pressure on the scientist working in those great laboratories Mm. Yeah. to come up with er, a solution for whatever it was they were they were going into. Yes, er must must be enormous pressure exercised there. I don't think I'd like to work under that pressure. 'Cos I wonder whether it's that sort of pressure that caused some of these drugs to come out which caused thalidomide which drops to mind,thalidomide, whether that was pressure through, you know to the damage that did, you see. Yes, yes, mm yes. whether that was in, under pressure. It has to be, it has to be rushed through. You can hardly try them on humans, that the the of these, I mean. Must be a risk, they must know there is a risk, mustn't they. Oh, yes. Oh, yes, they they obviously go through a stage of trying to make sure that erm, theoretically it is correct , and then they do er conduct some experiments on animals, and you know, that that again is a question, erm Ethical the choice is wrong, I mean, some drugs suit some people, and not others. Yeah, yes, but there there's gotta come a time when they have to test it on human beings. Human beings. Human beings. yes. I mean, the the one that's, I suppose talked about a lot nowadays is A I D S, and there are some drugs, that have, will not cure A I D S, but will slow down, not the progression, but the regression that takes place with A I D S Yeah, that's right. And erm, they they they must try them on human beings, and I'm sure there are some people who are quite prepared to these tried. To try them. 'Cos there must be a great deal of pressure on the scientific erm er, problem was there and try and find Certainly, yes, yes, yeah. That that again, if you if you were able to say that's gonna happen, that will that will that must be given priority, but there's no guarantee they can find it. No, no. no. However many you get, and however long they work, there's no guarantee they'll come up with a solution at the end. No. Telephone, well, it's not for us, no. Scientific research is usually carried out by a team of scientists, often from several disciplines who work together, each of whom contributing something to the whole. This method is often faster and it enables very expensive apparatus to be put to better use. It may also overcome the problem that, from time to time, scientific discoveries were claimed, which had resulted in the falsification of results, their misinterpretation or too selective use. Can you remember any occasions where wrong or even dangerous results have been produced in this way. Oh yes. Mm. Mhm. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yeah. So th there, there, there we have the example, don't we. Erm, Well, it's the thalidomide that you yes yes, that you were talking about. Very very much last case. Very very serious. Erm. I suppose there is always the danger that the scientist will see things, will be able to interpret things in the way that he or she wishes. wishful thinking. Yes, wishful thinking. Wishful thinking yes, yes. Yes. Erm, the only example that I thought of, reading through this was erm, that of intelligence testing, erm, because intelligence testing er was held in high esteem about forty or fifty years ago. Maybe it will coming back into fashion now, I don't know, but there is no question as to whether some of the early er research that was done into the measurement of intelligence, was in fact fair, and fairly represented. I know some of the weird things they brought in that, towards the latter end of the war. In the army, there was hundreds of people were put through selection tests and Yes, yeah, yeah Sticking your urine in a bottle, lot of blocks, sticking them in different coloured shaped holes and things like that, you know. Yes, yeah. But er, it was all the rage in about forty-five, forty-six. Oh, certainly, yes, yes, and and it carried on for a long time afterwards, and and I think is is still used in some selection processes. Is it. Yes. Oh But there are, I think there is question as to as to whether you can accurately erm, explain what a level of intelligence is, but comparison with other people, because some of the data that that was used in some of the earlier testing, erm, was faulty, so I have heard. Yes. Er, but there again I think it was because the person doing this, was so keen to see the right result, that he read into into Into information coming back, erm, ideas and trends, you know, tendencies that weren't really there. Obtaining the evidence by observation. Evidence is all around us, and the first step in any research is for the scientist to decide which of the many facts are of concern to him. His mind must act as a filter. Collection of data may be a slow process, throughout his life, observe the time of appearance of the planets against the background of the stars. These planetary tables enabled to work out and test his flaws for planetary motion. Others such as geologists or naturalists may be able to collect that information much more rapidly, but again it may be years before it can be used to produce a theory of evolution. Mm. Do you that a child's mind works in this way, as he or she looks at the world and finds meaning of in it, and are others who are influenced by their own experiences and by their conclusions of others. In other words, is the is the child more able simply to observe and draw conclusions based on that. Whereas the adult is influenced by what he or she already knows or by what other people have been saying. And a child's mind is free of clutter, isn't it. Yes, yes, yes indeed, a child's mind is is If we can get past the clutter, we found that out, when, in our generation we tried to switch over to decimalisation, Mm mm. Get rid of all the clutter, but that's what we found it most difficult to Still not To decimalise. Yes, yes, it's still not there. No, no. I took a retirement I took early retirement coming in the You you you would No. I couldn't do the old one now. No. Sometimes I the metres and things. all the measurements I can't Yes, yeah, so a metre and then Don't, let let let's just think of that for a moment as an experience, erm, as far as money is concerned. Mm. Do you find it easier to deal with. Oh yes. Pence and pounds than it was to deal with the old pounds, shillings and pence. Oh, yes. There's I always refer back. You refer back. You shouldn't. I have, I know it is. You shouldn't And I often think to myself, when I'm paying for something, think to myself, oh I would never have paid that years ago. you know. I know. When you, when you work it out. Yes, yes, yes, yes, how much more you would have had to pay. Oh, it's a lot easier, the only thing I want to It's much easier. It's much easier. morning, I found I had blank spot with the old twenty pence piece. It's gone now, of course. Ten pence piece. The the ten pence piece, yes sorry, the ten pence piece. And the florin. I kept mixing it up with the florin, Yes. and yet, and I had some really embarrassing experience, getting it off and querying all the change, getting dirty looks, and I could not get that point out of the brain. Kept thinking it was twenty I took me no end of time Yes,yes I can see that. Ten p two shillings. And he kept thinking it was twenty. Yeah. I had some really dirty looks from people in the shops, bus conductors, you know. Yes. But I think, I think that in the main the changeover to a decimal based currency was easier. But what about other things like, erm, distance,wh what the metres. Metres you know. I'd come up Metres. I don't bother, I still think in what I do, Mm. in my Yes, yeah. I do it, it doesn't bother me all that much, no. Do you, do you, do you think in metres. I'm I'm perfectly used to the distance system, Yeah. I've got all that, perhaps prejudice of them. you actually didn't you. And we have car, I still talk in miles. Mm. And I still fill up with petrol by the gallons. Gallons, yes, yes, yes. Yeah. Erm, I personally prefer litres, but I transmit that the four and half litres about four and a half litres And I reckon the miles, and petrol consumption yes. I don't know why. No, I don't either, no, no, it it it's strange, there are certain things that are difficult. I mean erm, I don't know the height of this room, but erm, I could not begin to guess in metres, but I would think, you know, a door is six foot six, traditionally in height, add a couple of feet on, it's, you know. That's twelve feet Yes, yes, Ten feet Now, if if I were to say, let us now have that conversation using erm, metres. metres. It would be very difficult for me. I couldn't, I couldn't do it. No. Very difficult. No, no. I I, because I do erm, a lot of kilometres, travelling a abroad. I have a I have no difficulties in miles and kilometres. I've got an amaryllis, that high, but I couldn't tell you high it is in metres. Could, no, no, no. I would say it was three foot six. And what about the height of an individual. Yeah. Mm. Yes. Erm, I still don't know what average height is, I know that in in in general, in in in erm, imperial measure, it is f five feet eight inches for a man, it's supposed to be average. But I've no idea what that is in metres. No. No. So I never needed to know that. I don't think you try. No, no. It's very No. But I'm sure I couldn't tell you. You couldn't Erm may I say, while you've been Yes, yes, yes. across your groin One metre seventy, or something One metre seventy, but it was something like, yes, yes, Something like that. It's the same with weight, isn't it. Yeah, yeah. Same with weight. Oh yeah. It's the same with weights. Yes. Mm mm. Yes, I suppose, you see, If you, if you haven't got the old clutter to get rid of, it's fairly simple. Yeah. Well, just learning one more system. But to get it's quite, on top of the other thing, it seems seems quite complicated, doesn't it. It's not unlike language, if you grow up speaking a language, it's easy Oh ar, it's easy If you have to acquire it as a new one, it's Seen children take to it, like a duck takes to water, don't it. Yeah, yes, I I sometimes have difficulty with my twelve year old daughter, Mm. because she understands litres and millilitres, and she understands kilograms and grams, and I still think, I suppose in pounds Mm. and in pints, and if she's trying to cook something, and she says, daddy what does four hundred millilitres mean? I have to stop and think, and I have to work out that four hundred millilitres is not quite five hundred millilitres, so it's about, but I'm not sure how about a pou a pint. But it's very difficult, I've got to go through all that, before I can answer her question. And all she wants to know is do I use this jug, or do we use that jug. I think she's supposed to be The next generation, no, no, the next generation. Must be doing litres for about twenty years, and I've been retired ten years. Yes, oh certainly. and we were working in litres Oh yes. a good ten years Oh, wait a minute, it must be, because erm, More than that. No. Oh, more more than that, because I was, I I can remember being in school job and all. Yeah. Yeah. working under a headmistress, now sadly died, when the the the head of maths did a presentation to the whole school, so this was prior to nineteen seventy four when she retired. So nineteen seventy two I should think. Oh, yes, easy, it's been I one of the thing, one of the things that was driving me mad in last part of my career was, I was responsible for documentation, the fuel issues on the, round a thousand of gallons a day. Mm. And it got to the point where our pumps were issuing the fuel in gallons, but the fuel companies were bringing it in in litres. In litres. And I had to do conversions on thousands of pounds and litres and gallons, I was working from a con Yes, yes, yes. a con conversion table,I hadn't got it was. Yeah, I can imagine, yes, yes. gallons and litres. That was the that was, that was over thir fourteen years ago. Yeah, yeah. So that I think it was about nineteen seventy two that we went decimal. Yes. Mm. We're gradually getting used to it. Ah, so the the child's mind is uncluttered, it's more easily able to erm, observe things, take in things, learn things, and has a lot of advantages over us older, us adults. By contrast, legend has it that in some cases, a single observation may result in a great discovery and here we've got one or two examples. The lifting of a kettle lid by the steam from boiling water may have led Watt to the discovery of steam power. Similarly observation, of the clear patch in a dish of agar on a jelly is said to have resulted in Flemming's discovery of antibiotics such as penicillin. Now we go on then, to the section obtaining the evidence by experiment. Observations show that events are not isolated but interact with each other, often producing a complex situation. Scientists use experiments, especially those which can be carried in a laboratory or under controlled conditions to simplify these interactions. When wanted to investigate this springiness of the air, he first identified the factors which might be involved, such as volume, pressure and temperature. These factors are known as the variables in an experiment. He set out to see how, changes in pressure, that's the variable, affecting the following, the dependent variable, keeping the other variable, that is the temperature, unchanged as a fixed parameter. Most experiments are concerned in the same way with a variable, a dependent and fixed parameters, now that's that's that's a lot to take in, in one go, isn't it. Mm. But, you could, you could just imagine, you've got three things, one, each one is interdependent on the other, change one and the others will change. So if you change number one and number two, it is possible to keep number three the same. As long as you are doing to number two something appropriate as effective by what you have decided to do. We move on then a little bit, to talk about sociologists, because that's that's another area of science, erm, where a lot of observation was research and is done. Sociologists wanted to have their results accepted as scientifically accurate, have worked in the same way, but not always successfully, when dealing with people, is not always to easy to think of all the things which may affect the result. So sociology then, is the study of socie the study of people, and is rather different from studying materials which are, perhaps, not so variable. What are the factors, which if ignored, could affect the accuracy, for example, of opinion poles, and can scientific methods be successfully used in artistic, in social or political fields. Let's think about opinion poles. Can you think of factors which will influence the result. There's a lot, perhaps, difficult to take into consideration. Yes. Yes. The weather. The weather. Yeah. Mm. Erm, people go around trying to get data for the er, subject for discussion, and if it's rain, they don't find any proper average of the to Mm mm mm. Erm, Any other. Can have an effect. What else can have an effect? Well, I suppose, if somebody's going around with an opinion pole, and they ask you about a certain, what you think about a certain thing, that, that, presume what their asking about, may affect everybody in different way Mm. I mean, some may affect me one way, the next person they ask, affected another way, so they get two different opinions, don't they. Yes, yes, yes, yeah. Although they would try to work that out by saying, for example, erm, we would have during the course of the day, to interview somebody from, you know, so many males, so many females, so many in this age group, so many in that age group, so many who perhaps, I don't know whether they go down to look at your address, or or whatever. But they tr , they're doing their best to get across, you you know, you sometimes wonder why they pick on you, and they don't pick on me. That's right, yeah. They're obviously saying well, he fits into a certain category, whereas I don't. So erm, they they try to consider it. I think the thing that occurs to me, erm, they don't always know, erm, what has just happened to you. No. Erm, so do ho if if the question is how do you react to so- and-so, you're answer may very well depend on whether you've just stubbed your toe, against the pavement as you got off the bus. Or whether you've had to wait for an hour in the rain for the bus to come along, whether you're in a good mood or a bad mood. Your answers may very well be affected by ho how your are feeling. Tha that's one thing that can't be taken into consideration. So, if the same every day, Mhm. investigates something, and there's half a dozen people in the group to give their opinion, it's not what worth the paper it's printed on. No. Mm. Yes. No. No. Because they they are picked at random. Yes. Yes, could be could be anybody, yes, yes. I'll tell a another way in which erm, er, you your comment about climates, about weather, may influence things. You can have a very good er, opinion pole about the outcome of an election. Yeah. The outcome of the election may depend upon the weather. Yeah. Because, er, is it the floating voters, or is it the others who will turn out, regardless of the weather. Mm. They'll be some people who erm, for whatever reason won't come out because it's the worst possible day for the weather, and and and poles have been affected by weather. Yeah. You can't, you can't calculate that. No. No way in which you can calculate that. But wh what about scientific metho methods when they are studying sociology, the second part of that question. Can scientific methods be successfully used in let's say social or political fields. The study of sociology. I I I got a little bit involved in that a few years ago, when I was working on it, having had some scepticism before-hand. The idea that you you you look at people and you try to calculate the way in which they work, and and and how their behaviour and how their relationships affect other people I think we display a degree of not knowing very much about that, don't we? Well, I could see yeah. Well, go on, say something about it, it Well,sociologists and their families. Mm. It was very successful in establishing the details about execution and erm,and so on. But, coming to the practical side of it, Mm mm. That's very interesting because we're always going back to the earlier comment that, perhaps people like scientists, like sociologists are intelligent, but not in touch. they're not practical people,th erm, and it may very well be that there are some people who are very good at the theory, but erm, are not very good at at the practice. Le let let let. You need to have somebody who can use the results of the research, and see its practical applications. Yes, yes. And that isn't, that isn't always very easy. Erm, we we we don't seem to know very much about sociology and political science. Not a lot . Not a lot. No, but but in interesting area, very interesting. always something What about think of it. Yes, yes, well some of my, some of my best friends are sociologists, so I must be careful. Oh Must be careful what I say, yes, but that that that's I I often wonder how a person can get a degree in sociology. Mm. I don't quite know how, erm, What are the subjects? What are the subjects. Yeah. How about the lower social. Well, the higher social. Yeah. It's ba , yes, I I couldn't give you an answer, because I I I Mm . didn't come from that sort of background. I I latched onto it later on. Mm. Erm, but I I will see if I can find some information, it maybe that I, yes, you want to comment. get a degree of political science. Oh, that's a good idea, mm. And and you hear of people having a degree in political science, how can a person obtain a degree in political science. I mean,polit er science, political science is not an exact knowledge. Well, no, it's it's I don't know whether political science could be exact, er, Maybe science is the wrong word, but it it it it do , erm, science basically means knowing, means knowledge. But it it would be interesting to know what sort of a background you have to have, in order to have a degree in sociology. Erm, I ought to know this, but it's not the sort of thing that I have on my fingertips. You you perhaps know you get in sociology. No. Depend on what your studying, I suppose, doesn't it. Yes, I mean, the the the rea , the people that I've had most contact with, erm, in sociology, are those who are concerned with, what is known as the labour market. Mm. The way in which work employment er, is available Ah. or not available. Ah. The level of unemployment, whether the unemployment erm, is for example, one of the old, or the younger element of society, er, where the difficulties are, er, what the employer thinks, how how many people, of what size are unemployed, how many people, of what age and of what sex. Now that's qui , that that I, having been involved in that to some extent, Yeah. I find it very interesting. Yeah. And you can see the, you can see the way in which it can be applied, if we know, erm, that there are erm, too many people of a certain age, and too few jobs, then maybe we can do something about it. Th th the trouble is the government seems to go the other way, and er, when when it should be learning my opinion, lowering the age at which you receive your pension, they want to extend the age into which you have to work. Mm, right. Erm, there you are, that's always political, and we don't we don't want to Four million people. So it's normally dealing with people, isn't it. It is, it's dealing with people. Dealing with people. But erm, funnily enough I I I was out erm, on Saturday evening, and by a strange coincidence, er, where we were sitting having a meal, erm, in the restaurant, erm, someone came in and joined us, we saw, some friends of ours, and he is a sociologist from the University. And I'd been wondering whether like I could perhaps persuade him or his boss, the professor to come along and talk to us, and let, some of their time is very full, and to them time is money. Mm. There was a time, I'm sure, a few years ago, when you could have said, can you spare us an afternoon, they would have been only too pleased, but now, they might have to say, well, you know, two hours of my time, that's that's the university and you know, there are the overheads, and But they're a salaried, aren't they? They're salaried, yes. should have done it. Oh, yes, yes, but there there was certainly a time when, er universities, schools and even business companies, thought that it was part of their erm, their way of supporting society in general, that they gave time to go out and give talks. Er, I think there is a tendending now, for them to say, oh, I'm terribly sorry, we can only do this against payment. Yeah. Mm. Well, that's economic pressure. Economic pressures, yes, yes. My, you know, time is money, erm, if I can't account for it, Mm. It's like you calling, you know, calling one of your accountants, Mm. Yes. You know, he he gives two hours of his time. I'm sure we can get an accountant to come and speak to us, but we might have to pay him for two hours work, you see. Mm. And that, you'll have to take out a mortgage to do that. But anyway, anyway. Erm, the chicken to the egg, which comes first. Over the years. Haven't found out yet, have we. No. Over the years, it has never been certain, except in the very simplest cases, what comes first in scientific research. Do observations lead to a sudden idea or to a theory? Or, does the scientist know first, what he or she is looking for, in order then, to select the information he or she needs. A astronomer looks at the stars, a doctor looks at the human body. If they are too selective, they may miss the vital factor. It took many years for scientists studying malaria to realise it was the mosquito that was important, not the messenger from the martians. If experimental methods are to be used, then some theory must already be present. The results of the experiment may disprove a theory and it will then be abandoned with another. Results can never prove a theory. For in the future, under different conditions, there is always the possibility of showing that it's wrong. Nowadays, scientists look at laws and theories from a new prospective. They realise that improved techniques may disprove today's theory, and so they no longer use the terms, true and false, right or wrong, but only value a theory for it's usefulness at the time. It will be difficult to assess what counts as success in scientific research. For the researcher, it may be different things, it may be money, prestige, a claim by his piers, promotion within the team, notoriety, the ac acquisition, new knowledge. It could be the moment when, after years of tedious work, he obtains the result which leads to a flash of inspiration, a breakthrough to new knowledge, a glimpse into the future. And to close there, a few questions, let's take them one at a time. Or to shoot them, sir. Or to shoot them, yes, yes, yes, if things go wrong. Or if they're found out, perhaps, yes, having based their decisions on faulty material. Do you think the joy of discovery is enhanced, if the new knowledge could be used for the good of mankind, or do you think knowledge per se, is enough. Do you think that your discovery is enhanced, if the new knowledge can be used for good of mankind, or do you think that acquiring new knowledge is just enough on it's own. Could be, for instance, the knowledge of D N A Mm. At the Universit university, which lead to the discovery of the murderer. Yes, yes. Now, I think that's a Mm mm. I think that I think that D N A is a very good example, because erm, it presumably, it was initially a piece of jury search. Only he had no idea what he was after. Yes. I know, I know, Mm. And er, it just suddenly Mm. Yes, yeah, and now it it it's almost current language. Most people know about D N A, they they know the expression, they know what it means, they Yes, very common knowledge. And and of course, it has led to the conviction of a number of erm, criminals, number of murderers, certainly. Before then, nobody had ever heard of it. Mm. Mm mm. But I I wonder if, when it was discovered, the feeling was, jury named, it was a discovery, a new discovery. Or whether it was a feeling that this is wonderful, because it would be of use to mankind. Well, I think he said before, let's see whether we can use this, Mm. On this particular Yes, yes. yeah. And it happens to have come out right. Mm mm. What about the discovery of atomic power? Yes. It was, was it Erm, so er, there must have been a situation where he was discovered, that it was possible to split the atom, basically. Yes, well that was,wha the, what was the name Hes Einstein, wasn't it. Einstein. Ein Einstein. Einstein. No, what what, you know, what Einstein was now, because, a chap called Heysing, something similar. H E Y S I Mhm. Something like that. Yes, yeah, yeah. But at that st And then New New Yes. That's the one, Newton Mm, mm. yeah. Erm, but at that stage, it was very much, pure science. That's called pure science. It is a theory. It's been proved that the theory can work in practice. Yeah. At that stage they weren't sure, as I understand it, what could be the use, misuse, abuse of this discovery. Mm. But it was almost, think wonderful, that they were able to discover this. Erm, and then of course, later, someone was able to turn this into a fearful weapon, that that was often my view of the thing. Erm, who only later realised what he had opened up to the whole of mankind. Erm, that that that that is a point where the discovery in itself, must have given a great deal of pleasure to a a er a number of people who've been involved in the, in the research. Well of course a very long process of discovery and experimenting, and eventually Mm. got the, got the through that stage, erm, heavy water. Yes, yes, yes. That was in Norway, and got away from the Nazis Mm. and then reached it's destination in America. It's a, very, very, very, complex story That's where the pressure comes in again, isn't it. Pressure? Yes, yes, yes. The pressure to do work against 'cos they knew that Germany were working on the same lines, didn't they, the enormous pressure to get there first. I mean, the research is still going on. Mm, mm. Oh, yes. Yeah. I think it's a thing that they wish they could dis-invent, don't they. Well, yes, but then you begin to wonder what would,ho how, would, if they, if you could dis-invent. You can't dis-invent it. What would, what would have happened to history. But that's another Let, let, let's see if we can tackle at least one more, before the tea comes in. Do you know of any cases where the desire for success has led a scientist to falsify or misinterpret, either unintentionally, or deliberately. It has been done, but I couldn't give an example. No, no. I feel exactly the same. I'm sure that I've heard of instances where, er, the results have been falsified, in order to make it look it right. Yeah, yeah. Erm, and the last question, very quickly then. What's the of computer aided research. So many results are being produced, that there is neither time, nor money to follow them up. Can you think of any way, by which vital results could be identified and used, and I think it's a very difficult question, that one. Just of isn't it. Possibly because of computer aided research, so many results are being produced, that there is neither time nor money to follow them up. Can you think of any way in which vital results could be identified and used. The the difficulty is knowing what is going to be useful in the future. Mm. Well, they can't look, they don't but what according to and therefore they have to throw a high percentage of the results, Mm. out, and work for is used or can be used what just like that. Yes, yes, yes. But then again, er, for people like us difficulties given I think, yes, yes, yes, I think, I'm, I think that that that that is one, it's it's last one, that probably has erm, defeated us. Were were not able to make very much comment. So I I I'm going switch off this this recording, you see, erm, for our Monday afternoon session. Thank you, dear . As far as I can make out we're up to, we're up to the darts competition Right. er, we need to go through every single entry on, alongside darts, call them out to me for example, Elaine W one, Mid Northumberland, M N Right, let me have a look at this first before, you pour a cup of tea and I'll have a look at this form That's probably not the best one cos that's er, that's not the normal form. Never mind, aids with that? Erm, no Are they competing if they've got aids? that's, yes, hmm, that's carpet bowls with guttering it's not it's not with aids as you said Carpet bowls with guttering oh good so you want for example Elaine W one and then there's this Northumberland? Yes er, Mid Northumberland Right or M N. and where's the darts? That's the darts That's the darts column thing down there on the other ones the darts column is a bit more com is a bit simpler Oh right, I'll need room for this, that's handy but er, but, damn time consuming that's the only trouble What? erm I think this is the way it's done anyway, tt, er, they should have done all the rest of them. Oh got the wrong one You're not the only one. which one is it? Which one's that then? Oh dear right, I haven't put here's the darts, darts ambulance you have, have to give me the name, the classification and club Mm, mm er we should stop this thing while we was pouring that out Too late rattle that through mm, thank you right right, er, I've got my pad here, is that there's that sheet and there's all this lot for each classification Wonderful oh so you're onto darts? Right, we're on darts Where you got to? haven't started darts oh that's funny, that's ambulance S W five er you want the number as well? Yes, I'm just looking for What for? the other darts looks as though it's missing oh no You d the other darts are not in the bits she's given you? No, it's er oh this is ridiculous So you see your Christmas present came in handy that's, look, let's do another one first, what's the next one on the list? Er quoits wonderful Quoits right I want to do quoits, I don't right okay, quoits quoits, they all want to do quoits Hundreds of them, yes Hundreds of them, wonderful, somebody else can do this one Elizabeth Well give me the class W five yes number? event, no I don't need the number What's their name? Mid Northumberland Yeah, Mid Northumberland right these are all Mid Northumberland right er anything else you want? No, all I want is the name Of the class? the class, yes Okay Elaine W one Mid Northumberland yes Peter ah, ah ah, ah, er Mid Northumberland, that should be, she's got down Well it says W one here Right, that's okay Peter looks like five, three or S three S three, probably if you give me the class first it's probably easier Pete, Peter S three , it just says right mm, mm okay Wayne W three W three? Yes yes, right What's W stand for? Wheelchairs Oh right Class class three, stand S stand and S is standing S is standing right, John W one Eh? John W one That's right, okay in Northumberland, another W one Paul , Well how have I got, those down, as, these are Mid Northumberland? Yeah Right, okay Irene W two th this is er mid Northumberland isn't it? Yeah I've got them down as T, L, F that one, okay W three Yvonne right, yes W four Millie ,M I L L I E Millie, or Lillie? Millie Right W four, Sheila right, yes Sheila W five yes Steven W five yes oh Veron there yes got him W five, used to be at our school does he? Yes he's doing quoits again Robin Yes W five Steven who's he? What's he? Well it says V H? it hasn't got anything by him It must have something it's got O, two, one, his number and then S one A That's it S one A, S one A er what's, what's his name again? Robin Oh we've got Robin he's er W five Oh sorry Steven Steven Mm, mm yes, got him er Kevin S two yes Lou S three yes David S two yes Neville S one A, what's the difference between the one As? Er standing one ambulance, that's what it stands for, er it means Oh what standing not ambulance, I thought he'd be in a wheelchair it means that er they're in a wheelchair most of the time, but they're, for the, for the activity they're, they're standing Oh I see, right that's the lot on this page then Right, okay, so, let's work our way rest of the roll more or less Right, quoits, what does, that's erm Q is it? Pardon? Q for quoits on this Yes Q for quoits Q for quoits right, oh, I think one of the disabled secretaries wrote this Yes I think that's, that's the Hexham one is it? That's the Hexham Spinal Sports Club Yes erm, for the quoits there's only two competitors Right, what are they? Are they wheelchairs? er John W five Who? John oh no could be John yes er wheelchair W five? mm Oh, he's not there, John right, okay, yes and the other one is Andrew or Andrew W four right okay, that's got them, yes got him, okay, right right sometimes there might be two different names on this, on those, on those photocopies so it might not be the same one at the top and bottom Right, this is West Cumbria Disabled Sports Club Cumb right right,Cumb Tom, oh this sports, Tom S one Tom ? oh Tom , yes Right more disabled writing, Mary S one or ? Says W Right George S two yes yes got him John S four yes John S five er John , yes S five now Marilyn or Mary Lyn W Ma one Marilyn , yes Bernadette yes W one May W one yes T W three yes D'ya wanna get your tea? Er haven't got time for tea You have got time for tea the way all good lecturers spend an evening, working oh plod, plod, British Polio Fellowship Right B P F, yes erm, get right list, Dorothy W one yes Joan W five yes Joan W five yes yes Emily W four er yes Ivy yes W four I remember her, Margaret W one that's er, that's innit? Yeah Margaret yeah yes, got her, yes right, still the British Polio Fellowship, Maureen S five yes Fran S one well named, yes Liz S, S three yes Mildred S five is that ? Mm that's right Cathy W one er yes Connie S four yes Jean W five yes Peter is that? Yes S three three Laura W two yes and Jimmy S four yes is that with, without an E isn't it? yeah Quoits is about the biggest one Yes I know, you can get somebody else to do that, be there for months and they don't turn up at once, that was erm, I didn't realize they had to turn up at once , so I was letting them throw whenever they wanted What do you mean, they throw whenever they want Yeah, but it makes it very difficult, if you got a play off, it gets, if you get people on the same same score Well you have to, you have to call for them then Yeah I know but they don't turn up and you get all tangled up all over the place Oh I'd let them come, I'd let them come whenever you can get them cos we've got so many of them it's Well they're given a time to turn up in a group aren't they? They are given a time, but they never do, if you er, there's no way you're gonna get them together as a group for that time Mm so you might as well fill in the gaps whenever you can er they're for a day out that's the trouble they're not, they're not there for a, they're not You mean they don't take this test seriously as I do, Ashington Floaters Yes Ashington Floaters, quoits, Cyril S one A yes Doreen S one yes Don W three ? No ? Yeah Oh damn it What's wrong? I'll swear in a minute Yeah, Linda S three er Linda ? Yeah, aye yes, got her, yes and then Paula Where's she? S one A Yes, hang on, what, what, Paula ? Yes What classifications? S one A What, which, who is she? Ashington Floaters Oh right, okay right, erm, we go down to Bedlington Disabled right erm Dorothy S two er I don't there's er, okay Lillie S three right, yes, got her Cathy S one A yes, these are all Bedlington aren't they? Yeah Yes Ina W one yes Pauline S three yes Ann S one A the only one to enter the quoits this lot Ann Ann yes, got it Bridgett , Bridgett with a double T, S two yes and Marjorie W two er, Bedlington right, yes No that's Ashington Floaters right Jean S one A yes Tom or S one A yes S one A,Norma Norman S one A yes Nan S one A yes erm Ken W one yes right that's that lot done. Is that all the Well that's been all the Ashington Floaters and the Bedlington Disabled oh and there's some more here you haven't done those sheets yet? Mm, mm Oh so we've got all those sheets to do yet I know, hmm this is one, one classification? well how far have you got through? Got most of them done javelin's done, the shot's done, this er er we should do, we're nearly there actually How long, the students doing, checking this? Well, they haven't done it, they haven't finished it have they? That's why I'm having to do it Idle, final totally idle a waste, a waste of education, right this is Carlisle Sports for the Disabled Right James W five yes Steven of no forget Steven , Nicholas W two yes Robert W two yes Bill yes W three Robert S three er yes James S one yes Andrew S one yes Carlisle Sports Club, John What is he? V H, what's V H? Visually handicapped Very handicapped yes, got it oh visually handicapped, okay, John V H yes Linda W four yes Debbie W one yes Margaret seem to remember her S three yes Sheila W two yes and Pam W one Pam who? , looks like Pam, oh no she's not on it, she's not doing quoits, I tell you a lie, but somebody here is for the British Polio Linda S five Yes must, gotta ring your mum back some time tonight when you've done the quoits, right Hurst Welfare then, quoits Ivy S three yes Margaret that is here W two who? ,, no it's right okay Martha yes W two, Val V H visually handicapped Helen hang on Val mm visually handicapped yeah oh, eh, you sure she's doing it? Yes Val she's, and she's visually handicapped? Says so here, sex, female, She, see if there's a Val anywhere else that's the afternoon ones, right I'll add her on Val Yes, and then it's Helen H W D what's she? V H And another one? There's two, two V H there No, erm Helen is S one A er Helen or S one A right Jack W one yes we're back to Bedlington Disabled Keith W two yes mm, mm, Keith S one A yes Joe W three yes Sidney yes S one A S one A, there's a question mark on S one A oh leave it and Robert S one A yes Randall what's he? er S two Yes Terry W one and William W one hold on, Terry W er there's a mistake there right, okay, yes and have you got William W one? Yes I've got Wililiam here What? Wililiam Hurst Welfare again, the Hurst Welfare Right, what are we on now? Alf S one Yes Alan S one A yes Malcolm S one Hurst Welfare Hurst Welfare yeah that's right that's it? that's all, oh no we've got another, oh Sorry I mean that's it, that's, that's the whole that's that sheet that's that sheet, yeah right it doesn't go on the back of these does it? No it's just er Are these the ones you send out? Yes, because er they didn't produce it in time so therefore it couldn't be printed So it had to be photocopied so it had to be photocopied yeah, any, well er right, which club is this? Killingworth Flyers Those, those yellow ones, they're all Killingworth Flyers okay, Deborah S four who? Deborah S four, S four R Yes, yes ah yes got her, yes Graham S one A Susan oh, oh, oh, er, Graham isn't it? well it looks like an E, but it must be a G Not necessarily mm, well yeah I suppose it could be, yeah I suppose it could be mm, maybe I've got it wrong there as well, alright, okay, carry on Susan S three.. do, do, yes, got her John what is he? W three, no I, I think that, that, that must be cos they've got the same G here I think it's so it's ? mm Right, okay, I bet he's wrong all the way through well oh that's a isn't it and it's the same E Yes it is isn't it? Aye it's like It's a funny way of doing the G mm Alright, okay, is that the lot? Finished with that one? Finished with that one, more Colin S one A How to get bored in one easy movement Mm er, yes Bill S two yes Hazel S one A yes Ernie W one yes Michael Michael who's he? S four Yes Alan S four yes Frank oh it's them again is it? That's right Mm S one A Susan hang on trying to, yes, Susan visually handicapped is she? Yeah Evelyn S four Yes Paul visually handicapped oh it's isn't it? right Russell S one yes Aileen S one A yes this is the John Wright Centre right erm C W five eh? C C W five Oh right yes got it, yes C W five yes M W one is it or ? it says yeah okay, right Y W one Y and L ah, I'm looking for her, Yvonne yeah yeah that's right, okay and L L , yes W one, M where's that? S one Is that or ? Oh it could be , M Er, hang on, S what? Oh no he's not doing that, sorry Hmm L what's that? W two, oh maybe this is the last one L ? yes W two? yes doing quoits Male or female? Female Oh, oh, L oh, right, yes, got her, yes in fact that M , it mi it might be cos the L's completely different looking at this have a look I've a feeling it's actually Oh they don't do any of the other Ls, the same Oh we'll leave it as , I think it's all the way through Right, this is T, L, F Sports Club? Yes, T, L, F yes Er Paul S one yes Derrick S four yes Jean visually handicapped yes Sandra S one A yes Geoff W one yes Mark that a erm S one yes Chris S one A yes and Christine W five yes Jean W two and that's the entry for quoits right better go and ring your mother Let's have a look at that white sheet first erm, quoits are done, I'll do the pools after those shot, javelin, discus, low on darts, they've ticked these so I hope to God they're right well that Justin'll do anything to be perfectly honest er I wish she, it makes it so difficult when you can't trust people. Mm Table tennis oh, well, have, the table tennis hasn't been then yet? T T is that? Yes Some of these have been crossed, have been done on the Hexham Spinal Sports Club T T Right, you'd better give them a shout, there aren't that many actually Aren't there? table tennis Has it a that as ? Yeah, there aren't any on there, so I'll tick you one on there Right, oh, right okay the Hexham Spinal Sports Club Right you've got the list L yes Terry yes Peter yes Douglas yes Andrew yes table tennis, T, L, F, Paul er Derek, Paul S one Paul he's got, he's er S one table tennis, you sure he's on table tennis? It says T T Right, er Paul, okay, I'll put him in, Paul hope there aren't any more Derek who's he? S four? Yeah Oh hang on, hang on, hang on oh, right table tennis, what was the last one's name? Paul Yes, got him, okay Derek erm, what's he? S four Yes got him Geoff W one yes Mark what's he? S one Yes T, L, F isn't it that? That's T, L, F yes Right erm, this John Wright Centre, M S one is it or ? oh but I think it's , well or I've got down here, so leave it as I think erm, I think it's actually, never know, erm, now where are we? Killingworth Flyers, table tennis, Susan yes visually handicapped playing table tennis? yes Paula yes W four, Paul visually handicapped no he's not, is he? Says here visually handicapped Paul is er visually handicapped oh yes in the males so he's playing er, it's all classes This one Killingworth Flyers again, oh a lot of table tennis here Colin S one A yes Hazel S one A er that's all we need to fill in it's me, although I did that, make, make that mistake, right, yes, go on Can't be trusted Jimmy W five er yes Ernie yes W one Michael S four yes Alan S four yes four Killingworth Flyers, Deborah S four yes William S one A yes that's the Susan S three yes and John John where the hell's he gone, erm, I'm looking for John , yes got him Hurst Welfare, Ivy S three yes Hurst Welfare again, Alf S one yes Alan S one A, Malcolm yes Ann disabled Malcolm Keith what's Malcolm ? S one Yes got him, yes and Keith Bedlington Disabled W two Keith is that what you'd, yes, got him, yes I thought you said there weren't man Carlisle Sports There weren't for the Disabled, James W five yes Robert W two yes Bill yes W three, Robert S three right, yes Carlisle Sports again, Belinda W four yes Sheila W two yes Ashington Floaters Don W three yes Ivy W er S one A yes and nothing for Bedlington Disabled nothing for Jean yes I got into the Ashington Floaters as well, Jean S one A right, yes I think I'm getting er a pain just in the elbow there Might be tennis elbow oh it just started this week, it's not swollen show me yeah I suppose it could be the swimming I get it every time I go swimming Oh, you're very brave about it dear, er Margaret W one, that British Polio Fellowship? Yes And again John W, V, H er,yes Fran S one Fran er, yes Cathy W one yes Norma W two yes Jimmy he is? S four Yes now er West Cumbria Disabled Sports Club, John S four yes and William yes, W now that's that classification done Let's have a look at this , er well they'd supposedly done weightlifting they've made, they've made a few er, they've seemed to have done some alterations on it so they must have done that one, er wheelchair slalom Wheelchair slalom you're joking. Pardon? You're joking Yeah wheelchair slalom wheelchair slalom last year d'ya remember? Oh I was stuck on the quoits, I never saw anything except Well they've got another name added on here, so maybe they have done that one, just as, find it interesting is the fact there's no er no errors anywhere Well maybe there aren't any mistakes if there aren't any mistakes, it must have been the one I did Oh, right er right, what's, hopefully that one's right, er, there's carpet bowls C B C B with guttering guttering to start off with Where are you going? I'm going off on me walkabouts, gonna visit all me old mates Mm, mm and er have a good time apart from the fact I was camping at so I'm going off on the Mo on the Tuesday still be knackered after the Just after the disabled games disabled games, that's a Tuesday, this, that's, the day after Bank Holiday, setting off, er nine o'clock in the morning This the Tuesday? Yeah Yeah so everything's gotta be sorted out before the Tuesday er I'm going to in the morning erm Oh why, why use Alston? Because it happens to be en route Oh basically, besides it's somewhere to call in know anybody there? No I don't actually, but er Oh oh I went last year, so it could be interesting, it's quite an interesting centre yeah so private mm Hope it hasn't gone bust oh cos I haven't got, got to contact him tomorrow, cos I couldn't find his telephone number mm er booked into, with Bob and er Steve at er Ullswater at two o'clock we'll leave yeah we'll have a talk first and then he's going to have a walk, a walk round the centre, look at the facilities, and er, then go and do, do the ropes course and then we're going to head across to to set up camp and which is in a field outside the centre Why are you camping? To save money for the students, cos we might Well they'll only complain you know Pardon? they'll only complain even if you try and save money for them Well I'm just tr I say you don't have to camp do you? Of course I'll have to camp as well Why, you don't have to save money, stay in the centre Tt, I probably could, but I don't think it, it would go down very well with the students Well they can't have it both ways if they can afford to save money they can,but if they don't, then stay in the centre I couldn't stay in the centre, there wasn't space in the centre Oh erm will they have the er big llamas and the snakes will they? Yes, so Hey it's a sheep so, having an early start the following morning, we're going to be at er Lane Head for half nine so go and see Martin, tt Er, where's his wife, is she still in Shropshire? She's running the Duke of Edinburgh award scheme for Wales, she's down in Brecon Surely he was closer the kids are at school in Brecon Now why isn't he choosing centres that are down there or is there less to their relationship than meets the eye? Well it's, I, I, almost, I asked You almost asked him if he'd split up with his wife er I said, er, all I said to him was that, erm, he said, he said he was going back er up, up and down most weekends to er mm to Wales, so he could be with her mind, er and he said well I've got the job I want and she's got the job she wants, erm, we're both happy in our work But surely he was closer to her in erm ? I suppose it took that long to get there did it? He had to get right across, right across Wales Yeah remember when we went, when we dropped er Aunty Helen off Oh it took hours didn't it? took about two and a half, two hours didn't it? Yeah yeah Just to get to , and er so we've, we're there for an hour or so, then we are going er the Y M C A at Lakeside mm, mm cos it's er a good centre mm, mm then we're going, we're then popping down to Eskdale to who's in charge of Eskdale now that Roger up for the M P? Bob Oh you know Bob I don't remember when you met at the Eskdale party two years ago You'll have to identify him more than that what did he look, apart from the fact, what did he look like? Er What was he, job he was doing, was he chief instructor? Oh a smallish guy, er, sandy, sandy hair cut short, very stocky, er he used to be up at, he used to be at Glenmore Lodge I don't remember are you sure we were er, are you sure we were there two years ago? I don't think we were, I think it was about three years ago It was just after Roger reti left yeah Roger er Roger oh wasn't he give, wasn't he officiating that night because didn't he give a speech? Yes His farewell speech no Roger didn't officiate But he gave a speech didn't he from the stairs Roger didn't Bob did Oh yes it's all coming back, well some of it, oh a bit of it, yes So, we're going there, then to have a little bit of fun, we're going to have a talk and a guided tour and I'll do the guided tour mm, mm and that seeing as you know the way then we'll go to erm, go and have a session on the ropes course hmm, be sick of rope courses No he won't, only gonna do the two, they're doing the, the Ullswater one and the Eskdale one mm then we're gonna go climbing at Where's ? and erm just down the road the crag down the road sort of climb there for, for a, two or three hours, then we'll drive back and have fish and chips in Ambleside and er Stay with Bill and Liz No, I'm going to Keswick no we're camping I'm sorry, yes, I was listening and er, they're er, they're going to have cold breakfast They'll have cold everything there and then they're going to have cold washes early and then they're going to have er they're gonna cook the evening meal on the er, on the Tuesday night and er, they're going to, we're going, we're going to have fish and chips on the Wednesday night mm tt and Thursday they're going to the luxury end, they're going to they're going to see Paul and John Hope they clean up before they go there and er from there we er head for, we're going to see Dave at Gillhead and then we're coming home mm and do the students know all this? Do they know they're camping? Oh yes, yes, cos they're the ones, they're, they're the ones who wanted to, to camp Well if they're the ones who wanted to camp I think you should go in there, you should er go in the Well what's happening is they want they wanted to save money mm and also I can do a little bit of a fiddle yes because it can count as their as part of their their camping experience for Beta award oh well that's it saves me having to do three weekends, I can do two weekends next term instead of three is this the B Tech Beta is it? Yeah the B Tech Beta award, tt, then the weekend after that I was going, Peter's group's cancelled Which group's that? erm it was the information technology group Mm my usual yearly group and they've cancelled? Er, well had a ca had a contract Mm for twelve hours, which was about two hundred and thirty quid yes er, I've signed the contract, the contracts has been handed, gone through the system oh er, our new esteemed leader your new one the principal the new principal has said it will not, contract will not be honoured why? Can't cos afford it? educational cutbacks Oh so that means it's er it's, they're not going oh Peter said er just cancel it, he said oh, I said I know that Dick would, would go without, without payment no but I'm not prepared to let, let him go well I don't see why he should well they're not my students oh and you've got better things to do with your own time I could have done with the two hundred and thirty quid though Well I know, but er Well that'll pay the ferry I know, I know it would have done which is what I was relying on it mm and I don't know what's gonna happen with my contract with nursery nurses in June then Well er, is any other servicing being done? Is everybody getting their contract through? No Well I think you can wave bye-bye to that I'm a bit annoyed to say the least, Peter's Hopping hopping mad Well they should of said beforehand, before you got your hopes up Yeah especially as er, I'll have to go and speak to er must get hold of John John who? John perhaps still tell him we've cancelled, we're cancelling Yes well they can always fill the hostel can't they? Yeah Never mind we can go to the Lakes instead so, er, I've still got the nursery nurses Well we'll check that er no we'll check that you can still go with them, before Philip, cos Phil and Liz would appreciate an early warning Yeah if they can't, we'd better enquire about that I wonder how little went on with his knee? Yeah He would have been alright I think we'd have heard something mm so er, I've got two Beta awards, weekends to do, I could do one Peter's weekend now Mm that erm, that would mean I've just got one to do after half term, that er Well why are you doing that with them? If they, erm don't need it anyway. What d'ya mean? Do they need the Beta award? It's, it's a, it's an award, er it's the module if they haven't got any awards really, I will, I'll arrange for them to do er first aid Mm do their St John's first aid next term they don't appreciate it do they? No So do they see this as an imposition or no do they have to get I mean they're the ones who are badgering me for, for qualifications, they're badgering me for, I, I, I just told them straight that I will do it for them because I, I won't get paid for it mm on one condition What? the condition is there must be at least of 'em who are prepared to go, to bring me the money for the registration mm for the first day of next term, and once I've got that money and they're registered you'll have a go I'll have a go, but I'm not going to do it for two or three No, don't see why you should. How much does it cost? Ten pounds Erm that says, tt, six pound, er, tt, three pound ten insurance and six pound ninety registration so that should sort that out Blimey you'll know soon enough won't ya? that's one thing for certain those weekends for averaging Oh how's it, how is this averaging working out? Not getting me for any extra hours that's a certain fact Well you put enough in er because they actually, I mean, the week, the week in Scotland we should have got overtime for that, but we haven't But that's averaged in is it? That's supposedly averaged in, yes, the fact is that Jenny and I both put in something like, well, it was five, forty, forty five hours plus technically that is classified as forty five hours class contact a week mm it's five nine hour days, five, three session days and er well why didn't you get paid overtime? Because our esteemed leader won't pay it. So will you get time off in lieu? Oh technically get time off, time off in lieu, but I can't take it, so Well do you think it's time that you started taking time off in lieu? Make it erm I can't, you can't, cos they won't let you take time off in lieu unless if it involves them having to employ somebody else to cover But that's not the point, that's not time off is it? I can, the only time off in lieu you can take is, is D and D time. But you're off anyway Well I'm not off, I'm just working in the off in the office, so I can take possibly some Thursday mornings off Well, don't you think you ought to? Well I can't take any time off until after the exams, once the exams are over Well what do the unions say about this, I mean Well, the best way is to be ill after, after, after half term Like most of us, that probably explains why a few people are I mean at the moment, I mean from that one week mm they owe me twenty one hours, twenty, twenty eight hours mm er, from, I should get paid for the disabled games yes I hope to God I do get paid for that well how much do you expect for that? I expect six hours Yeah, will that pay the ferry? No, six hours is a, that'll be er, about a hundred quid Oh it'll pay for a bit of the ferry but has, has no one approached the unions? Er, I got paid, I got paid for the disabled games last year Mm so I should, er, that should have set the precedent, I get paid for it this year well you got paid for your contracts, they let your contracts through the last time er, then, so that's at least, well in fact that's more than sufficient, I should get paid more than six hours because I've been working on the students, on the disabled games all day Friday mm and probab er probably Thursday morning as, as well, so I'll probably have Thursday, Friday maybe Saturday, well, oh I should have, because by working on the games Thursday morning, that's another three hours, that's, brings me up to , twenty eight, yes twenty eight er er thirty one and er, I'll, I've got class top contacts time in the, in the afternoon, so that doesn't count, Friday I've got class, a two hour class, but er, tt, I'll be working outside, in fact that class will be cancelled that day, so it's er, so four hours that's thirty six er, Saturday forty two, Tuesday erm tt, oh that week I'll have a six for Wednesday er nine Thursday er twelve for Tuesday another twelve, plus the evening twelve, plus two, plus another six, that's eight and a half, eighteen, another eighteen hours mm for that week well what happens if you average more hours than you're supposed to average? so, so, so what have I then forty two, so that's six and that's sixty hours What was the, what was the point in averaging in the first place? To make sure you worked a certain amount of time during the year? Yes, to make certain that er, you didn't er have any time off, it, any time free after the, after the students have finished their exams Oh, so what happens if you all this, all this, it is, it is for, cos what they're trying, what they're trying to work is the fact that er you're supposed to have twenty one hours' class contact Yeah and if er, what they're trying to do is so that you work say twenty three hours the class contact, you, you can't be averaged for more than two hours a week, so you need twenty three hours for the first two terms mm and er that makes up for the time you, then doing the after the exams or something like that, yes but you, if you're due for time off in lieu, couldn't you take, couldn't you say that erm use that for the averages? Tt, well at at the moment I am therefore due in actual fact two weeks' holiday That's a stupid situation and if, and if I do two Beta award weekends mm I'm due three weeks' holiday well er so it's er what happens if you're actually averaging more than twenty one hours throughout the year? If I was doing more than my twenty one hours throughout the year Do you get paid overtime? you're supposed to get paid overtime And will you be? No no overtime is being paid And have people stopped doing the work? The interesting thing is some departments are still doing overtime They're being paid? Yeah, but, but our dep our, our department our fat slob won't allow it won't let us have any overtime He wants time off in lieu. he wants you to have time off in lieu Well then why don't you take time off in lieu? I can't take time off in lieu cos I haven't got any lieu time to take off You must have, you, you must have you keep telling me that you're doing all these extra hours and you're owed two weeks' holiday Well on a Monday okay I have an hour in the morning, I have the first hour in the morning and er oh God . What you forgotten? well this er, I've got this class on, on, they've amalgamated the two classes together so Yeah so now I have Monday afternoon D and D, so it's, I have four hours on, on Monday And you can't come home cos you'll be doing a split shift on the I can't come home because I'm, I'm working four thirty to seven thirty or five or, five till eight Thursday mornings you could take off I can't now because the class, the Monday night's class has now been put on to Thursday morning Monday nights? the Monday Afternoon. afternoon, erm from this week What about Friday? I've got the uniform services I'll have er four, four fitness training on a Thursday morning Well er so I've got er where does that leave you your free time? Well Besides Monday afternoon I've got Monday afternoon mm I've got nine hours D and D, I've got four hours on a Monday yeah er, nine till eleven on a Friday, that's, that's six, and er two fifteen to four fifteen Well why don't you go in late on a Friday? plus eight pardon? Why don't you go in late, go in for eleven o'clock on a Friday I can't do that because it's, a Friday morning is team meetings time Where? meetings with the principal, meetings with this, that and everything Well wouldn't it be making a point if erm everybody who was owed this time took it regardless the only time I can possibly take off get militant about it is Friday afternoon Well and why don't ya? I, I er, looks like erm teaching eleven fifteen to one fifteen my lunch hour is say one fifteen to two fifteen and technically I can er have it, I could probably, I could be, take off Friday afternoon, it's the only time I could take off for averaging Well I wish you would that's the only time I can take off time off in lieu, which is annoying Well why'd, I wish you would and I wish you'd er, they'd be a, what you needs is a concerted comprehensive effort from everybody be inconvenient as possible until the money stumps up don't know where the money comes from though I don't know what to do, tt I can't really take that them all take that er I don't want to kick the boat too hard Why? Tt, cos I don't want to be made redundant by being awkward Well not until you're fifty anyway I can't afford to go at fifty, I've gotta go till fifty five What if they offered you ten years' redundant? I couldn't even afford that because I haven't worked, even enough on my AVCs Aye I've got to get that those AVCs er, I mean if I had to, if that happened, how would we pay off Brian? Mm How would the, I wouldn't have any money from the AVCs either aye, well, just keep, keep on trucking so it's keep five years so it's keep a high profile on the, on useful things and keep a low profile on the, on the others mm, mm aye the only way of doing it, except you know, you're known for, for all the good things, the good things you do just make certain that er we don't rock the boat so you, so you you crawled you crawl and slave yes, this is life. What do you want as your little birthday present? I don't know Neither do I, that's why I'm asking you, cos I won't have time to shop A Magi light torch then What's a Magi light torch? Where do I get one of them? Steve's Right has he got one? Well he had one earlier in the year Oh, right, what's the Magi light torch? Just a little pocket, a little tiny, tiny torch with a very strong beam Mm, mm, right, well you need a torch actually mm those head torches aren't very reliable it's that or a new head torch, but if I got a new head torch it, it perhaps but they're about, they're about thirty quid I think Well we've got one that doesn't work the one? Yeah Oh it's all the one Jim give you yeah I never got it working No but I never tried really but they're the best ones you can buy Yeah. There was a bit in the paper today about er Ratners, in the Samuels outlet selling carriage clocks for three hundred pounds and claiming that they are solid mahogany cases, but as they're chipboard with a mahogany veneer, and er they've been had by the Trades Descriptions Act, three, who would pay three hundred pounds for a mahogany one anyway? Couldn't get away with three And how can they get away with charging three hundred pounds? For a w for a carriage clock Well, when you can pay fifteen hundred pounds for a watch Yes but you expect the value in it Ah, well what value is it, a watch tells the time whether it's three hundred pounds or three, three pounds Or Mickey Mouse, yes it just depends on the, the metals used in it, the jewellery on it, the movement mm the maker's name it must be bedtime now Dick It must be getting close mm, do you need a bath? I could do with one I suppose Well there's plenty of hot water you'd better get packing tomorrow night Mm, get packing during the day get packing, mm cos I'm not going to work tomorrow good it is my day off, let's face it Well you won't have a car, well you would Oh I will, cos I'll have the Peugeot won't I? Yes, they've got on quite well with the erm wall at the back, but there's, Geoff's got his car outside and the skip was in the police access road rather than ours The skip's up there now? Mm Cos the skip was at the end there this, this morning, it was there at lunchtime, er, well when I went in It was there in the morning, they've moved it since, I suppose they move it to where they're working but Aye, probably er, it's probably mean it's a new skip probably Mm the other one was full are they going to put railings up to the same height as the wall? No What are they going to do? They're putting a flat coping up Well, mm, won't that make it very easy for terrorists to, to hop over the low wall and avoid the enormous nine foot gate they've got, sticking up like a sore thumb now wouldn't that be rather redundant? Yeah totally redundant Will they now take it down? I doubt it I suppose it's to stop cars parking up now is it? That would be the sensible thing, to remove that gate down to the far end Aye, yes but tt, it would probably cost more to go and take it down then it would be to, to get a new gate I don't know what's supporting it, and they're going to erm are they? I would think so they've gotta go and plant, start planting ivies and things to drape down the wall I hope they're going to support the wall at the, our end they've done nothing, I suppose they've just taken it down, but they must be doing something to underpin it or bolster it Not that I know of, er, I mean Have you spoken to them? I've spoken to the guy and he's, said the architect was coming at lunchtime Mm at two o'clock this afternoon, er, because he was, he thought they ought to go on, totally rebuild of the fire on the Fire corner particularly yeah, well they need to what the main building? Yeah And the architectures needs to cos it was hitting the wall, the whole thing was, you could watch the vibrations coming down the wall What, just, it's not a safe road then is it? No Especially if it's been loosened and clobbered. Did he call the architect in? Or was the architect due to come in? The architect was due to come anyway. Yeah So how far have they got now? Well they're down by Anita and Bob's Oh they've just got on well mm they were outside us about er eleven o'clock mm er yeah they should be done by Friday I should think cos if all they're doing is putting a coping edge on it'll make it look nicer at the back. Yes, it'll give it more light Mm to the yard, to the, not to the yard but to the to the lane to the lane they must do something about the park court this summer, get the perspex sheeting renew renewed and er get some lead sheeting to, have to go and chip out the, out of the wall Which wall? Elsie's wall so that the water doesn't come down here, down the wall what you need to do is put the, lead sheeting chipping out from the, the block, chip, chip into the, the rendering, put lead sheeting into it, cement the rendering back in again Mm we need so so you, you've got a seal because otherwise all that happens is that er er you put the cement onto the, every time the, the water gets down the back of the cement, down the wall Mm, I think we need to call, we get, get a builder in because we need that, that roof seeing to at the back. That's gonna be expensive Well, can't be helped, I mean we can't have water coming through that, that's down the soil pipe, can't have that open for ever What's it like then I wonder? Well it's still coming in it wasn't desperate, but it's still coming in Dunno where it's coming from actually No, that's the problem with flat roofs, bet we need a yard seeing, we need a we need a, effort in the yard Alright I can do that then two weeks before you break up I don't, I don't think it's a job we can do, maybe if we get erm Angela's building contractor there's one or two little building jobs that we need, there's the damp patch in the chimney breast in there. I'd ignore that You can't ignore it it's the first thing a buyer will, a buyer's survey will pick up, especially as it was mentioned in our survey Oh that means we've gotta totally dec redecorate that room Well I want to do that anyway Oh bloody hell I hate more upheaval What? More upheaval for ya Yeah, exactly unnecessary It's not unnecessary I mean it's not that long since that room was done When was it done then? I don't know Well then oh and as you don't have anything to do with the decorating anyway I don't know what you're peeved about you like it before and then you like it after, and you're quite content to let me do the bit in the middle. How much longer? I don't know Well let's have a, let's go to bed Oh go and get this, finish this side off Well how much longer is there on it? I can't see it's very close to the end Oh well so we might as well get that forty five minutes finished oh yeah I've run out of conversation now you'll have to record Star Trek for me tomorrow. As long as I haven't got to watch it There was a nice moggy programme on yesterday. Was there? yeah What time was that on? Half eight, Desmond Morris, Tiger and showed you how a cat could use a door knob Mm, how'd he get up to it? Well it must have been a tall, a long cat and a low door but it would lift the knocker and knock its way in Must of been a tiger what the, well couldn't have been a cat It was a cat a cat, no cat'd, can reach a door knob This one could, it could just about reach it over its paw and flicked it up and knocked on the door That's huge it doesn't matter, I've got it on tape cats are there is no way a cat no way a cat can reach that door knob Well there's no way our cat could but this cat did It must have been bloody huge Well perhaps it was it was a long I don't know, but it did and I'll show you on the video if you want Oh I don't want to watch the video You don't like moggies? No You do I don't like moggies lots of little black cats I'll tell you one thing, nineteen ninety three had better come round So you can take Puddy abroad yeah, cos I'm not er paying, I'm not giving up my summer holidays and I want me five weeks then Puddy will be able to have a pet passport, anti-rabies shot and she's away Trouble is when, they take her abroad and travel in a caravan Well by that time we'll be into caravans won't we? cos I think we're going to lock her up during the day Mm, you can't lock her in a tent can you? No she'd do too much damage to a tent as well Mm, mm she might do What, might, would do, let's face it Well she can only scratch it inside she'd be climbing in the inside of it and ripping it like Russell mouse, Russell yeah mouse does more damage than Puddy What damage did he do? Why he chewed the apron Oh yes he did little mouse the apron that's right he did yes the sod Yeah What was that I told him, called? Randolf, because he went under the car and then he off can you post my, the thing to the A A tomorrow? Yes Telling them where they can put their cards in the best possible term That's ridiculous well they must realize that they've undercut us considerably by everybody else that's, that seemed like a total hundred percent that was I know er, there wasn't much difference if you didn't go abroad no but to, to go abroad three times, it'd be a hundred and, it'd cost two hun two hundred pounds Extra? Mm Oh cos it's forty six, fifty four and sixty eight I think it was mm and your membership on top of that plus your and your Home Start and your Relay Mm well I think this is, enough of this side mm enough it might have just about finished, I think we'll stop it at that then fill the fill the thing Hi Hello there. hello, how are you? Very well thanks and yourself? Yeah, not so bad Yeah, good I was just gonna say Dick, can you, I'll, I'll give you a ring back it's just that we're in the middle of eating Rightio so I'll give you a ring back as soon as we've finished. Okey-doke Okay Okay bye now. bye no problem, cheers . That all you want over here? Right, you slipping that in? No I haven't, no it's, it's er one thing I need to put in that one that due to wear to go in I can see those, that cream out there can you? You can't see it there can you? What? The cream No, well, I wasn't looking for it actually. cos it wasn't in the er, in the first aid drawer. I don't think we've unpacked it from when we went I can't remember unpacking it it's not in the er in the ski bag. worry about Can always get another one anyway, it'll always turn up later on One towel One towel, right two towels so it's the sheet sleeping bag sheet sleeping bag, two pillow cases, mm two small towels I suppose we only really need two small towels to Well you'll be bathing every night I suppose so, yes now do you want, suppose we could use the, the two square ski bags to put the bits in couldn't we? No As opposed to the one long one and the, and the one boot shape one er, that's all yours is it, there is it? Well you said you'd put in, yes it is basically The only thing to go in is wash bags and they go in the small rucksack anyway, erm do you want these pink ones? Yes I thought we'd, if I took that up across with us, we could put er ski clothing in that yes and what sort of, have you packed me ski socks in?the blue socks have ya? I've got here, I've got your long, two pairs of long johns Mm I only actually need one pair of them er, yeah, I've got your two, er polo necks, there's your hat, your gloves, your socks er your glasses Mm, I'd need these in the car wouldn't I? Yeah, put those in the car as well, that's the er Money purse pardon? money purse That's the er kitty purse really all my stuff is in there everything to pack that, the rest in there, cos I've got in there, socks, underwear, er Long johns? two pairs of long johns Vests? three pairs of vests Shirt? two, two shirts for wearing on the slopes, one pair, one pair for wearing in the evening, I've got one shirt to go in and the one I'm wearing as I, as I go out Mm so that's, that's all tied up, er sun glasses and goggles? er sun glasses are there, goggles, oh those are go those are goggles, sun glasses are in the car, er that's it and that, er, hats, er Scarf? scarf I haven't got a scarf glasses, er, that's all in, in the boot bag in, put the scarf the er, all the ski waxing stuff is in the boot of the car already Right, well we'll just need to stuff it in the bag then. Yeah, yeah, that's all that needs doing. Right, when you, off you go then dear, you want to put that stuff in? Yes, otherwise we'll You're very good at stuffing, you're very good well, that's the one thing I'm expert at, yes, so, so says my birthday card Yes no it doesn't actually it says you're the opposite doesn't it? Yes Mind you, you haven't, he doesn't know gone of the days of records yeah, well let's keep going dear cos I'm a right old bugger now yeah, terribly, terribly weary certainly can't manage what I used to be able to Do you think we need all these socks? Do you want that as, what are you wearing to go in? Oh I'll wear this and me leggings don't think we'll need to take a dressing gown do you? Don't suppose so, no yes nobody's going to be prancing around like Noel Coward at the end of a ski day That can go in the the other bag the other bag right, I'll fold them then God they look revolting these things don't they Jan? What, long johns? Long skinny legs, green Long green skinny legs and knee bolts, knee joints,colour don't know is that my disabled one? I think so Right, well, I don't think I need this one because I've got me red one Have you? I'm not, no sorry, the blue one, and I'm not, I don't sweat do I? Er, no ladies always perspire No ladies glow, men perspire or sweat oh, oh, oh right, mm I doubt I need my goggles will I? I don't know Need my glasses now will I ? er that's about it, innit? Erm, you putting your torch in? Yes that's downstairs Right, your birthday present. I thought I'd leave that in the car actually Yeah that's cos that's er, where it's available, mind you, you look quite fetching there, I think I might do, I might be tempted here Yeah what else have we got to put in then? Can't think of anything, there's everything else is in The bag won't do up will it? Sound very easy,no complications Haven't put a swimming costume in Mm, you're not likely to go swimming I don't know if there's swimming in I mean places of There'll be swimming there. Oh yes there's a wee bit of room still could of put in, could of put in there, six inches' worth in there been not, right what can we put in the pocket, erm, give us a scarf, anything, er Put scarfs in put towels in? We've got the two towels, we've got the two towels The two towels are in, the small two towels are in, the er, the do we need a small towel actually in the overnight bag? Mm, I suppose we could do with a tea towel size one, oh, I haven't got a tea towel in Well, and are taking four Pardon? they're taking four, it's on their list of four Fo four Yeah four tea towels? Yes Hello hello . That was a waste of time, I thought that were being Paul actually What he say? They were right in a middle of a meal Right Hello, hello there Dick it's Paul here Hi. Did you ring a moment ago? Yes I did Oh. I didn't know whether I'd put in the right number and I thought well I'll, I won't let anyone answer it, I'll just re-dial. Ah cos er I picked it up and said hello and that was it Oh I see I must of just been putting it down at that time I thought, oh I wonder if I've got the right number here yeah but you're both well then? Yes, we've got er, I think we're, we're just packing at the moment Aha er I think we're more or less set really. ah that's great How, how are you doing? We're, we're sort of just about, you know there's the last minute things to put in, but, barring that, what we've done is to put it in a lot of small bags rather than big cases Yeah so it should slide in alright oh yeah, er, well I've got this one big waterproof bag Yeah which is my old er, my canoe bag yes which they're dry bags for putting in canoes to put all, to keep your wet stuff aha er to keep everything, everything dry yes and er I thought I, I's gonna put our ski stuff, our ski er etcetera in that on the roof aha cos they're, they're out the way right, right and er just see how it goes when you get here then won't we? I think on that, looking at it on a logical basis, er, I think our stuff will take up one third of the boot Oh well they're should be no problem at all then er because I think if I, if I put one, my one big bag, which takes up about a third, er, er yeah and the boot bags on top yes I think it'll all fit in one side oh that's brilliant, oh we should be alright then I think we should have, I, I've borrowed, I've managed to borrow a set of change as well Oh have ya? Oh that saves a bit of er worry doesn't it? Yeah, so So, have ya, have ya seen the snow conditions then? No, er, I, apparently I saw on the Teletext last night Yes it was a hundred and twenty five in the valley and er, two hundred and fifty on top that's right, it's, it's pretty good going anyway yeah, I think it was still minus temperatures that's super isn't it? so it sounds as though it could be good Yeah it's not so good down the valley at no that's right, I've heard some bad er cos, er, apparently there, there was fifteen centimetres On top that's right, it's very poor elsewhere on er,yeah looks like we may have struck lucky, cross fingered and everything else well I mean it is the most er reliable high resort aha er, which just as well we've been there before yeah, sure so, er did you, did you get Cath's letter by the way earlier? yes Good er Jan's, Jan's Cath's just put a few things together and thought well I may as well let you, you know, she may as well let you know what the things she's put in Right, well we're putting in er things, some tea bags, er sugar Yeah Cornflour corn er cornflour aha, that you always forget hmm er yeah some mixed herbs and er, and er, and cornflakes Right, right, great er we'll bring the pressure cooker with us You're taking a pressure are ya? Right if, and we'll see how much space we've got when we get to your house aye and then if it won't, it won't and yeah if it will fair enough er because pressure cookers do, I mean they're marvellous for going, getting the stew going in about er ten minutes flat aye, yes that's true er, I think er, I mean everything else is tied up, the green card's arrived the er lovely erm, the R A C Reflex is all sorted and paid that's great and paid for er and er, what I can remember the, the ferry gets in at, is it seven thirty in the morning? It's something like that, I think it, yes, I think it's around about seven Er, I've got er, I've almost abso three quarters promised to go and call on some friends in on the way through On the camp site. on the camp site, in somewhere east So it'll be time for a cup of tea so it'll be time for a cup of tea alright, yeah er I mean that's no problem I mean I've got er there's Vicky, Vicky and her group from, from Morpeth aha er so so this is, that's all, that's down in the valley? That's in the valley just er just That's right you told us, you said there was some people at yeah and er that's no problem there's also my cousin going, er, and er, her husband yes er and also a friend of mine who's what, and er, well best man to twenty five, well How many years ago? twenty eight years ago now Oh one or two yeah so oh that'll be good there's a there's a whole gang down there yes er, so, we'll probably arrange for, to meet up with them sometime, somewhere yeah, oh yeah erm, erm but erm apart from that I think everything is er I think we're all ship shape, so how lo how far is it on the other side? Do you know exactly? Ten hours Well ten hours you reckon? well, well Vicky reckoned it was ten hours from Calais Yeah and there's probably and I reckon I reckon we're, we're an hour short at Calais because er, we save about eighty kilometres Yeah by going er Portsmouth aha er, and er we also have a very short section on the in Paris yes yes which means, which again will save time I reckon yeah, yeah so, er, and I reckon probably the best, best way is to go, so, motorway as much as we can, down, well down to oh yes just, slam down the motorway absolutely then head for Geneva aha and er we turn, it's about forty kilometres shorter to go via to Geneva via aha and along the side of lake to yeah is to go through aye and er out to can be an absolute swine can't it? Yeah that's right Traffic wise so, so I reckon, I mean even though it's Sunday I th I think we're better off going through er yes going that way have you, have you got all the necessary maps then? Yes I don't need to worry about things like that no, no right I've got the, this year's Michelin er oh that's great er, big map right, right, I'll just leave that it's ah just things I don't have to worry about then really er, the, I mean I don't know what with, well, we'll see how things go when we're there, we're down there, I mean er, er if the snow's not so good towards the end of the week we'll, we just head back don't we? Oh yes, yes Er and er as simple that I mean you can worry about that at the early end of the week yeah I mean the one little thing that might be nice, it might be er, a romantic weekend, er a romantic day in Paris Oh yes I'm on er well it's a holiday isn't I mean er a, a stroll down the or something like that on the way back yeah that sounds very yeah, you and I arm in arm Dick yes that's it, yeah well I wasn't quite thinking that actually and er what time do you reckon then, you'll need to pick us up? Cos that, that was the main erm I'll, I reckon that er we would leave here just before nine and right get to you som somewhere about er half nine, quarter to ten aha and aim to get away about ten o'clock right er, that way, I mean, I think it's giving us loads, extra time, but er yes I don't know what the roadworks are like on the A one no I've no idea er, I know that erm, they were bad when we went down at half term yeah er, and er perhaps best to use the M one and, we can always go and spend some time at er, we'll easy get a meal in Portsmouth anyway yes er, we felt the Pizza Hut's quite good in Portsmouth aye, I think ya but I think ya mentioned that once before and I down s down I quite like Pizza Hut but we haven't had, skied on those before down in ah, that's the thing to worry about isn't it? We can't really be out of er eye shot of the car is it? No That's the, the main problem yeah we'll have to, we'll have to work it in shifts yeah well yeah you must, bringing the take away out yeah we'll have a take away in the car park oh we'll sort something out oh yes erm, so you reckon you'll get here about ten o'clock? Well about quarter to ten I reckon About quarter to ten yeah right and, hopefully we can sort of aim to, to be in, in and away in a, quarter of an hour, twenty minutes or yeah unless it takes half an hour, well half an hour anyway cos I mean how many hours driving will there be in this country, about eight? Ee, I mean if everything went alright, it's about eight hours isn't it? I would think if everything went right, it would be something like seven hours Yeah but er the likelihood of that er I just don't know what it's gonna be like, er, so I think if we, well at ten o'clock, if we left at ten, we've got twelve hours to get down there That's right, cos it'll be an hour, well to get there an hour before anyway won't we for the ferry? I'd of thought so we have to be there, down there at eleven yeah er which we stop for er we probably have a cup of tea a couple of times on the way down that's right, yeah er, so so I think that's about right Dick, I think you're probably right yeah, so I think it's better to be on the safe side than er, than rush it well it is, yeah I mean once we're on the other side it doesn't really matter no er it will be, it will be nice to get there sort of before it gets dark wouldn't it on the other side? Yeah Oh yeah I mean what I'd like to do to be, to be honest, I don't know if we will do is er be at er, at er Borg by about half four, five o'clock yeah and up at the resort by half six that's right that's what that would be nice that's what I'd like yeah but whether, you, you never know in this world well that's right, but what, what happens with the er hour in France is it, is it It an hour lighter or, or an hour darker? well it goes Goes on an hour it goes, it goes on an hour So it's an hour light, more light isn't it? it's an hour more light, but with, but, but probably an hour further south Yeah that's right so there so therefore even itself out yeah true I think I think it gets dark earlier than it does up here for example Aha, aha yeah because of the er yeah er it's something even, even though got, because it's about half an hour di is, is it, is it half an hour difference between here and London? I can't, I can't, I honestly don't know And I think it's probably at least another half an hour difference down there yes er, and with the hour's difference I think it works out about the same yeah, that's right, there's nowt worse than being jiggered though is there when you get to your apartment yeah so with I think that's inevitable though really well er, and I thought we'd probably stop at er on the way in, if we wanted to, to go and get any basic provisions at the, the big yeah the big hypermarket in the yes valley, cos that's cheaper right and er, cos Jan's well again we'll, we'll see what the time is like won't we? Yeah yeah, yeah Well wasn't the when Jan's er, it's Jan's birthday on Sunday as well which it Is it? yeah Yeah my birthday Well, if you'd only let us know we'd of take an Easter egg with us Baked a cake Oh we've got, we've got the, we've got some Easter chocolates with us Have you? Have we? I've got, I've just got one small box I don't think we have a token gesture I got some truffles from er Oh yeah er the winners have this special deal at the moment aha these, these boxes of French chocolate truffles at ninety nine pence a piece good Lord erm go and take them to France and sell them to the French they're French ones as well, so actually er, I've got two boxes of them in the boot, in the boot of the car God They're quite nice They're very nice actually Don't you've got me mouth watering Yeah mind you, I've, we've just finished eating our tea, we've been out to all hours doing the lawn, you know cutting the lawns all round the house Oh yeah this evening was lovely wasn't it? yeah Fabulous weather yes, we'll be leaving that behind I suppose Aye apparently though, the, the weather's closing in though isn't it? Er, er Sunday Yeah apparently the weather's getting worse tt, apparently it's gonna be good over Europe, on, on Saturday yes er, so hope to, to be perfectly honest it would be rather nice if we had a, had a pleasant sunshine and drive across France wouldn't it? Oh yeah, yeah that would be very nice, Yeah just wait, just makes life so much easier doesn't it? yeah Visibility and it should be reasonably quiet on a Sunday because most, because ninety nine percent of all er contracts goes Saturday to Saturday Yes, yeah, why's er, I think we're doing it, it the right way, certainly, you know yeah we're getting there at the right time yeah but it can, it, it used to be absolutely horrendous at the Tyne Tees valley, well the, you were there for that weren't you? Oh yes absolutely desperate, the number of, the number of hours you spend in a queue What was it, what was it, eleven hours up, up the valley? No, it couldn't of been Yeah used to be terrible didn't it? Yeah twelve o'clock when we got there, half twelve when we got there yes it was very, very late I mean I think we arrived at the bottom about six o'clock oh yeah yeah we were just, we're just sort of moving a car length at a time weren't we? yeah, but I think now, er that Didn't we watch two films on the video? I mean the fact it's going up on up on a Sunday er we avoid all that and we, in actual fact if we go by we don't even come into it till we get to aha, aha, yeah I mean it's quite, it's very pleasant along the, the l the side of Lake as well yes, and I, I don't know whether I've been that way, I honestly don't know right then, so you're all systems go, that's the main thing Yes yes Yes we're all, I think we're organized. Okay, erm, we'll, we'll find out when we get there that we're not quite organized we've forgotten No, we've forgotten the skis or something something Er, well put the er the bottle opener in, that's the most important one Yes, yes hmm the cork screw yes mind there should be one, there should be one in the apartment yeah, they all, I always take one and I'm always pleasantly surprised usually by the amount of gear there are in these places oh what I can make out we've got a bathroom and a bidet and er, er, it's that's right the, the bigger apartments don't have, tend to be better equipped in fact don't yeah ah, I, it doesn't say whether we've got a dishwasher, I hope we have yes, that would be nice don't, don't think it did well but it's er I'm used to it, so there's fifty square metres which is quite a reasonable size for an apartment aha, aha I mean er, I mean, what, and the last time we went in, in, to tea in actual fact, we were in er a so-called four stroke five bedded apartment which was twenty two square metres good Lord, yes er which comfortable differently it was comfortable for two yes, sure but this one, fifty square metres is, is twice the size of that yeah, yeah that's good oh it, it sleeps six, so we should be er, we should have plenty of room yeah, good well if you have any further sort of info or anything else you need, you know getting ready, just give us a buzz tomorrow, tomorrow night right, er I mean coffee, is bet to be honest instant coffee in France is a lot better than it is here yeah Jan was saying wasn't she, how the yeah when you came through I think yeah that it's er better over there, that'll suit us in fact we'll, we'll probably go and buy, buy some coffee to bring back anyway yeah, yeah smashing I can't think of anything else no I can't either, I've got all the tickets ready that's the main that's the main thing yeah yeah that's right, I've just got to get me currency tomorrow and then yeah passports I've got I've got the currency and you're sort the way we're sorting it out is that we pay a quarter and you pay a half yeah that's right on the apartment well I've, I've got me er, hmm me Visa, I'm hoping yeah that'll be the thing yeah well it, you usually can anyway in France can't you? you normally can, yeah Use it, so well I've got me Eurocheques lovely, and we'll sort out all the rest yeah all the rest of the finances as we go and work it out yeah, I'll just er, I'll make erm, I'll, I'll start with a full tank of petrol from yeah, yeah and, and then if we sort of aha work on the basis of er, we fill up just before we drop you off on the way back well that's right, I mean if, if you, if you've already paid for things like Reflex and erm green card and stuff like that, if you want I'll, I'll just put all the petrol on erm me Visa well we'll see, erm that's it, I mean something like that, you know, we'll work something well what we'll do is we'll, we'll work a book yes ah that's very wise yes and then er we just er have a kitty for the food we just have, and we'll have a kitty for the food yes I got my pur I've got my kitty purse with me ha, ha so, if I don't, I, what, what I don't I thought you were taking your cat with you then when you said a, we'll take a kitty yeah no the last we did it was er, we just had a, had this, had this purse with the, which we, we stuck a couple of hundred francs in each to start of with yes I think that's the best thing and when, and when that er was extinguished we yeah we put in another hundred francs apiece yeah, yeah and this, we, we just worked our way through it during the week yes er for all the, the baguettes and er yeah whatever oh yeah and that's the best thing to do and er then er, and then I kept a book for, for the petrol yeah er and the road tolls we just jotted it all down yeah so that at the end of the time we just say right so an so, we split it down the middle yes, good cos I think if, it gets, it gets awkward if er you do it piece oh yes, yes, oh yeah you wanna keep everything er yes just so yes that's right okay then rightio then unless I hear from you tomorrow night for any reason, we'll see you at nine forty fiveish, on Saturday on erm Saturday rightio see you then okay yeah, bye. er looks as if the snow's excellent doesn't it? yeah it does doesn't it, so Saturday nine forty five, see you then Rightio bye, bye Dick bye Jan . Bye . bye . Right, what have we got left to do? Nothing Not a lot have a cup of tea? mm Have a cup of tea? Put the kettle on then Right, er I just erm bring down the er skis and the pack bags skis and the bags yeah okay then er bring down the, the poles and that's about it it feels too easy Pardon? it feels too easy Well we're just efficient hmm I still can't find that, that, that sun cream That sun cream, no mm that's put the skis on the, put the holders on, could do with trying out those, I don't know if I feel like it tonight, but er trying out those chains I couldn't find your little whizzy holder What d'ya mean whizzy holder? Your ski pack holder and er, and on er Because it's attached to it, because it's attached to the suit and you've knocked oh just knocked the lights out oh dear still drunk that's what it is yeah mm Where's your whizzy holder anyway? Oh my whizzy holder's in the, in the, in the ruck Good, I'm glad you've got it under control oh me slippers have got to go in What? my slippers Yeah shoes, we haven't sorted out shoes yet have we? Shoes'll go in the boot bag, in the ski bags Right er so I can put my trainers in my trainers, oh I could wear my trainers going out couldn't I? Oh I'm not wearing my trainers because my feet stink in 'em Your fee will smell, yes dear, disgusting, what about these knickers? I think I'll wear those to go in, cos those fit me Aye, I'll just take them upstairs then er the map's there can't think of anything else Oh no, but if we start banging on here isn't it going to reverberate? That's in case, there's an awful lot of table banging in this meeting! I mean, would you assume Jeremy we're going to be Corpusized? Yeah, you're going to be corpusized, yes. I don't say very much anyway. It is. It's actually going to go in the special category of peripheral material. What do you mean peripheral? Flipping heck. I don't mind being recorded, but I don't want to be made peripheral. The Oxford Rob Maidment corpus. Oh, nice pen! Where did you get that? Well, good afternoon then folks, and welcome to the Electronic Publishing Group meeting! You don't have to hammer it out just because we're being recorded Jeremy! Just cracked my knuckles rather as well. Let's press on quickly because I'm sure we've all got plenty of other things to get on, with apologies for absence. I have apologies from Vicki Whadcoat, who apparently is in Paris licking stamps for a week. That's a joke though Any other apologies. erm I don't know anything about the publicity people, but I thought that had been decided at the, is that right? Are we expecting them? We would have expected them at the beginning, and as we are still at the beginning, they ought to be here. Perhaps we should. Should we give them a ring? It's on there. It's Cathy really, isn't it, and Paul Paul, yes, Give Paul a call. Why's his number been scratched off here? He's probably been down here already and scratched his number off. Well, when they turn up we'll Cathy, hi, it's Tim here. We're down in I37 having our group meeting Anyone not got one of these? Is Paul there too. Could you come down? We're just making sure. Okay, leave a message with him. Okay, see you in a couple of minutes. Okay. Cheers. What about Paul? Paul's in a meeting, but she's going to try and pick him up on the way, or leave a note for him to follow on. Shall we press on anyway with the minutes of the last meeting? Yes Can I make a suggestion. Well, it crossed my mind that actually a few of the headings here are actually duplicated by the Video Work in Progress meeting, so whether we want to cover them again in this meeting I don't know, because we had a meeting yesterday which covered some of these things and their minutes are then available. Absolutely, yes, I mean, I followed an entirely erm conventional format for the agenda here, I mean we, do we have a, all I was thinking of doing was checking whether these minutes are a true representation of last week, and if they are, we'll press on to matters arising, yes? And if there are few matters arising, it's all to the good. I think on those Work in Progress meetings, I think you ought to circulate those, the minutes of those meetings, to the whole group, it would be helpful. Good, yes. Circulate it from the , I haven't, I'm afraid I haven't had any. They've been done, have they, they haven't been circulated, but they're available. But if everybody would like them? Who would like them? Well, I get them. Well, four of us, sorry, five of us, certainly need them. These three don't. Probably you don't want to. Well, I wouldn't mind a copy. Scrap paper! Who actually sits in on these video meetings. These four. Plus Vicki. I don't sit in on the general meeting, no. You're very welcome. You don't tell me when they are, so how can I? I thought it was all a plot! We never know when they are either! A buzzer rings and we have a meeting. So, erm Rob is to inform Simon of these video group meetings, and is to circulate minutes to those present, and Simon if he's not present, and if he is then he gets them anyway, and to Peter who probably won't be present, but will get the minutes. They probably ought to go to Paul Ralph. Yes, they should. And Paul Ralph in publicity. Well, basically everyone that's present at these meetings should get our Work in Progress meeting minutes. Except Jeremy and Caroline, who are not really that interested Okay, well, we can always choose not to read them! You can borrow mine. Why not circulate them to the whole group. Circulate them to the whole group, right. Does that deal with your little point? Are there any other pressing matters arising from these things that we should deal with in these minutes. Anything pressing? Matters arising? What have we got? There is one matter that I would like to add Yes Just the handling of equipment, and the new video equipment being delivered, and the hope that the division will invest in its own equipment, erm maybe it's just a question really, don't know if people here could help to answer it, but erm the more video equipment we have the more problems we have actually with erm just keeping it all up together, keeping it all working, and it is a constant problem with stuff being borrowed and coming back with bits missing or bits not functioning, mostly leads. erm There's all different types of leads required now. erm In other areas erm of the press there are people who actually maintain equipment. Because, I S for example look after you know, whatever they look after. We're sort of outside of that area so I don't know what we do about our video equipment, but I think it would be beneficial if there were somebody we could call on to sort out problems for us, who actually understood all the stuff. That's the other problem, it's getting so complicated that I don't understand half of it myself. You want a service engineer? That sort of thing? Not so much that? Technician, technician. I mean there ought to be someone who can make a lead for us in house, that sort of thing, which we don't have at the moment, because we've got things like complicated split leads for rigging up two monitors, and we've had those twice we've had those made, outside, but they only need to get sort of broken, and we're back to square one. One wouldn't employ a technician We wouldn't employ one. I can make leads, I mean, if you have to do it, if I had a spare moment No, no. That's the point, I mean I could do it. It's the spare moment point. And also, but half the time it's the problem arises because it's, the machines gone to personnel without something, and then we've got to spend time either chasing it up or getting another bit or going round in circles. It also it is a fact that the people that you do tend to lend the equipment out to take it for granted that you are also a highly qualified video sort of technician and if anything goes wrong, they ring you up and say ‘What plug goes where, and why isn't this working’ and why should you if you're working run down to some conference in the John Hall Room and try and sort out something for these people. You shouldn't. No, we don't! But I think we're making life worse for ourselves, unnecessarily unpleasant for ourselves. This morning I had to connect up a video for Caroline to use and all the leads, every single lead we've got, to connect any machine to any machine, were all bundled in like a load missing, and it took me what, five minutes to find the right leads and connect the machines up. If we would just organise those leads once and for all, and essentially, erm the leads belong to the video recorders rather than the monitors, and if those somehow were attached, if we could at least tie them together or whatever They need labelling. Yes, okay, label them, and were actually kept with the video recorders, that would be immensely helpful. I mean that problem with leads is actually hopeless. Isn't this compounded by the storage problem, bits are everywhere. I mean if you had some sort of central area to put things in. Well, we have one central area to put these things in, and it's called a small black samsonite bag, and they just get, it's just hopeless If you could have somewhere you could obviously hang them, like leads on for instance. That's what I started to do That comes down to the same problem, that actually It's once you start giving them out, that's what causes the problem. I think we could organise ourselves just a little bit better, erm Bringing it back to my point, though, there are people, if you have a typewriter, you don't have to know how to work the typewriter, erm it seems to me, that we're actually, the more we do, we make matters worse for ourselves. And we are called upon, as Astrid says, to sort of, you know ‘this isn't working, can you fix it, because you know how it works’, and that's fair enough, but I'm not called on by somebody in the press to fix a typewriter. erm So, my question really is, is there anybody who can help us. Could I S look after our machines. Could I S be responsible for our stuff? Can I just see who wants tea and who wants coffee? Thank you, how many coffees? One, two, three, four. Tea? You want tea? Two teas. Phil wants tea, but he's not going to indicate it. I don't know, I very much doubt it, I think it's unlikely. Would we actually want that? I mean, it's not a great, from a computing point of view, it's not great having some erm you know vast faceless organisation which is going to make sure everything's alright, because it means that when something goes wrong, it takes weeks and weeks and weeks to get it sorted out, because you have to fill in a form in triplicate, get it signed mhm And they have to buy everything for you, and it takes ages doesn't it. Okay, there's just So there is, I feel there's a great merit in having your own kit, which you sort out. erm My inclination would be to those people who phone up and say ‘look, I borrowed your kit and I can't work out whether the red plug goes in the blue hole’ or whatever, to say, ‘Well, tough’you know Well, in that case I think it's fine as long as it's our equipment, but I think the problems always arise from it being lent out, and that's where I you know, I don't think we should have to sort out other people's problems. erm I mean, I really do feel that at least as far as the division's concerned, there ought to be a separate set of equipment that is mobile. I'll take that up again with Peter, but erm and see if we can get that to happen. But if that then goes wrong, who's going to be called upon to to put that right? Well, that's their problem Well, you know, you call Mr Radio Rentals, don't you or whoever, you have to handle that separately, and that's, you know, we can say ‘sorry, we can't do it’. Because at the moment, it's, I mean I agree, I think we ought to sort out our own bit and look after our own leads, we should be able to do that, but But we don't Okay, we don't, but we do get them all tangled up by other people taking them away, and not bringing them back, and then we don't know what we've got, you know. So there's two issues, erm alright, I'm thinking, are there two issues? There's the kind of repair and maintenance bit, which really could be handled at a more divisional level. The repair and maintenance bit is actually dealt with by by sending it out to to to Absolute Sound and Video or whoever. mhm It hasn't been passed properly. Then there's the lending it out problem, where presumably people say ‘can I borrow this stuff’ and they just sort of walk off with it and you don't know whether you've got it all back, and you find a few weeks later there's a lead missing. mhm erm that sounds like, you know, our own housekeeping problems. I think if we had a if we if we tried, as you say, labelled the leads and tried to keep the leads together with the video recorders and perhaps stick a think on the video recorder saying which leads belong to this particular thing then the problem would be 'cos this would provide you with a checklist whenever you lent it out as to whether it was coming back, or provide the leads in other words Who wants tea? Coffee please Sugar? with something to check against as well. So have a checklist. It would be very easy to stick a sticky label on the video recorder with a list leads with go with it. Caroline? Okay. I agree with you a hundred percent we should try to overcome the problem of lending of that overcome the problems overcome the problems that evolve Sugar? from our and I would continue to press for that. Yes. mhm That's the main problem. Then there's also the problem where that stuff is stored. mhm I think it will get better when we move. Well I mean you could have you could have one in here. You could have one area as integral machines and things Do you want anything? erm No, I'm okay, thanks. Right. Okay. We could I've got a filing cabinet that's sat in my little corner which is empty, just a big tin box that's got little keys, I mean, but it's not ideally situated at the moment. Whether it could, you know, whether it could be moved erm cupboard, but there's just nowhere. Right, anything else that's erm needs raising out of the last meeting? Corpus update. Quite a lot's happened actually since this last meeting. In summary, Collins have pulled out of participation in the National Corpus Project and Longman have given a commitment to participate in the National Corpus Project, which leaves us having submitted a proposal a revised proposal to the D T I, erm fully documenting Longman's contribution, erm but leaving O U P's role and financial contribution to the project open in anticipation that there is likely to be some rearrangements amongst the industrial partners, that is there may be a reallocation of funding between Longman and O U P and maybe the addition of new partners erm or it may just stay as it is erm. We submitted that to the D T I, what two weeks ago? Ten days ago, something like that? Two weeks ago erm and we've had no feedback at all from the D T I yet erm Have the acknowledged it? I don't think I know. Well we know they've got it? Yeah, we know they've got it, but they haven't said anything. erm That's it really. That's about it actually . Yes. Why did Collins pull out? It's interesting or relevant to know. erm because basically the answer was because it meant finding erm making some new cash contribution to a hundred million word National Corpus for the nation, rather than, as it were , ‘selling it’ in inverted commas, the Corpus material which Collins, through the Birmingham University already have at their disposal, and the gap between the material that they could contribute to the project in kind and the erm role we wanted them to play just wasn't compatible. We're told it's a very close thing, the decision not to participate erm and there were certain technical and theoretical reasons, I think, that led them to come down on the side of not . Basically there are two academics in this country who consider themselves the countries expert in the singular on Corpus building and they are at different ends of the spectrum. And one is in our consortium, the other is not. Interesting that one has the Collins and Longmans . That said, the the Collins link was actually quite sad come to pass . Anything else . Can I just erm make one point. The minute here on sales ‘rjm presented a summary of the sales figures for the last financial year and the of the titles. It was decided that we should look at these in more depth’. erm Is that did we decide to look at those in more depth? I thought I actually gave all the sales figures we have. We don't have any more information on sales for last year, do we? I'm not erm not a I think we you decided to look at the erm way it was presented in more depth, as opposed to the We were going to actually analyze the suggestions We keep finding out why certain things erm certain things don't tally. Oh, I see, yah, that's a different issue. I see, that wasn't very erm It was felt that if we had that information available that it might be worthwhile exercise to carry out some analysis of erm time was given or It's relevant perhaps to report hereof that John Dennis has done a very useful spreadsheet of erm video profitability on a erm video by video basis, which we have actually a sort of profit and loss account for every year it was produced, and that is going to become a quarterly erm document which we can look at erm and that that's very useful to to and we did actually at our meeting discussing that yesterday we decided that we were going to erm try to break down erm the sales of that into title by market, didn't we? mhm, yes, mhm. John Dennis is going to prepare this spreadsheet erm on a every quarter. The one that he's done so far was at the end of December and erm he is going to do one to the end of March and that's going to be a regular thing. Does that reassure you on that one, or do you still think you were being asked to do something ? No, it's all right, I didn't mean I'm not worried about it. I didn't make much sense to me and I wasn't sure what we decided to do and erm you know I think it's slightly inaccurate, but never mind. Simon, you particularly wanted to raise the issue of job descriptions . erm take publicity first? Yes, yes, we should because we're very grateful. Because the job descriptions were to us as a department. erm We've had the two concept meetings for on track and great way too and basically I'm going to do copy by tomorrow and then next week we can look at them, look at the copy, for both on track and and the stock dates that I've got are the twenty first of August for both of them. mhm. So they should be in. Right. What was that date? Twenty first of August. We've also got the leaflet for the satellite broadcasts, haven't we? Yes. That's going to be circulated. How are we going to do this — at fifty thousand? Yeah, I think in the end it was fifty thousand that we did, which is going to go out with all the mailings over the next few weeks. mhm. Is that is that in time? I mean I've got is that any good because mhm. it's gone out I I don't think that's a problem because we're doing erm we're doing two blocks of six and we're onto the fourth of the first block now, but then the second block comes up in September and October, so it's certainly in time for that. I think we had to accept that the first programmes were just to get the whole thing working really erm. We are publicized anyway by Eurostep and they do quite a lot of publicity — how effective their publicity is I don't know, but we our publicity is as a back up to existing publicity. Eurostep? Eurostep — S T E P — Eurostep erm so erm I think it's okay. It's worth mentioning that I asked a lot of people in Spain, when I was there, at the Spanish you know what they knew about it, and nobody did. mhm. I got absolutely zero response. mhm mhm. Yes erm one of the questions which we haven't addressed on our leaflet is well actually, what, you know, how do you receive this programme erm and you do need special equipment erm Eurostep You need a television, yeah, but you need a special special dish erm in Eurostep's own publicity — I looked at this and they say the programme is available with, you know, sort of cheap and readily available sort of satellite dishes. They don't specify what they are erm which is is is not terribly helpful erm basically People don't know when they can get it or not. mhm no. And you've got to be pretty enthusiastic to get it. I mean people are receiving the programme. There are dishes around. But at the moment I would say that if there are a hundred people receiving the programme across all of Europe that'd be pretty impressive. I'd be quite pleased with that. A hundred? A hundred. A whole hundred? A whole hundred. I mean if there were if there were. If there were. If there were — it's probably two people. Do they have any idea of can they monitor at all who gets it? erm they ought they ought to be finding out. I mean they ought it would be easy to monitor because it is so it's so concise. It's not like trying to find out who watches Coronation Street, because it's so specialized. mhm. But they're, you know, they're a funny organization and lot of Isn't this part of Van der Plank's Well Van Consultancy for the British Council? Yes, it's it's he is supposed to be finding out whose whose whose getting the British Council Programme, but the Eurostep people to know ought to have a pretty good idea of all the Eurostep receivers. Is it the same satellite as Rupert Murdoch's establishment? No, no. No it's not, it's erm Oh yes, different. I mean the whole point of this really is to Rupert Murdoch's only got eight of the however many channels . Oh right, no it's Olympus and it's erm why we're doing this is partly because the European Space Agency is trying to encourage people who weren't previously satellite users to become satellite users and in the next century, or whenever,erm to to actually buy commercial satellite time for from them. erm So that's why all this is happening. Should we have Many apologies. Back to Publicity Department. So that that the leaflet's going to be going out in a mega mailing. Yes, there's Spain, Italy, France,. Spain alone is twenty four thousand. Twenty four thousand. Yes. Italy's university . France is . It's probably true to say, isn't it, that anybody who's going to be picking this up are going to be in the school system rather than in the private school system? I would have thought more of the state institutions really. It doesn't Part of the reason for doing it is is we can actually say we did it, so we can tell people despite the fact that they get the programme. The reason we did those mailings is because of the warning that we had they were the only mailings available by the way. Right. You wanted it to go out in the summer Yes. but the current set of transmissions have now switched to September and really, apart from these next mailings are in September so mhm. that's the reason they went out with those particular mailings, not through any great process of choice. Anything else to say with publicity that's erm We've erm completed the grape vine sample cassette now,, so that should be available in the next two or three weeks distribution. Just the sort of highlights, tasters? Yes. Is that going to be are there going to be any other promotional cassettes in the pipeline in the next In the next?— this year? I should imagine that's probably it for a little while, isn't it? There ought to be one for project video erm we can't do that until we can show a book. Yes. We at least need a book cover. We really need some sample pages. So we wouldn't be able to do that until the autumn, would we? We're not going to have cover page proofs until November. A great design form this. Another press third of October. When? Third of October. Third of October, yah. But we couldn't put that together until erm No, I mean the only reason I ask is if we do a mailing of a particular thing, then very often the the offer that the market can make, or one of them, is, you know, to see a specimen cassette mhm. But as far as I can see we are more or less covered. We had problems that last year with bits of this assignment until the mailing went out and then, you know, the video cassette, the specimen cassette was available but perhaps if it had been a couple of weeks earlier it would have been better. mhm. But I think we're covered there because we've got grape vine, which people would probably work on a new leaflet and the specimen cassette's going to be ready before the leaflet, and then project English new leaflet December, so if you are aiming to produce, if you do so, a new project English specimen cassette for next spring then mhm. that would tie in with any, you know, immediate use of the market . Yes. Are the systems in the this ourselves now on the responsibility of the sample videos that are now running smoothly. Do we know who's paying for what and Yes. Publicity pays and gets the money back from the markets. What we haven't actually started doing yet is getting the money back. But I think possibly what I might do is try and make this grape vine one the first one where we actually do do it properly. That'll be a major achievement when that is all sorted out. Can't you send them a bill for all the ones they've had in the past? mhm. Backdate them. With inflation. A nice little earner for you, won't it? Yes. Yes. One way of making a profit. Yes,. If I disappear to the Bahamas for a holiday . An interesting press for you. If you actually charge for your publishing journal. The is to charge authors to go on tour . I didn't say that . That's a different Dave Stewart, not the one who works here. David O. Stewart . That's the guitarist in the Eurythmics. Have you discuss with the David Stewart the business of compilation of programmes? No, haven't seen him. He hasn't been around I don't think since Yes. Well that seems to have sorted itself out, actually. He seems to have erm fallen in line, doesn't he? I suppose so. I got one memo mhm. Which then was a copy to your memo answer you mhm. mhm. But I'll check that again, but I think it's I think it's all right now. 'Cos, yes, I did write I have written to him. mhm. mhm. Are we having we have to vote here? Anything else needs to be . Anything you need to raise with us? No, I don't think so. I mean the main thing is these new leaflets really mhm. getting them produced, checked You're happy about that? Yes. Great. Thanks very much indeed then. Great. Thanks very much. Sorry I was late. It's all right, we held over. It's a privilege to have you, even for a short while! Do drop it on one of our publicity schedules . Cheers. Thanks a lot. 'Bye. 'Bye. Right erm Simon, can we get to work. mhm. You've all been and this is really addressed to to H O H members, not to erm delegates group or whatever we call ourselves erm everyone's been to a erm job evaluation H O H A discussion, right? Astrid hasn't. has not. erm one or two not giving that much with us. That's one of that's the reason. Yes. But everybody else has been. Yes, yes, yes. erm and Phil is a job Am I? I'm being trained tomorrow, so I don't know what I am yet 'til I get my Are you an analyst or a A job commandant? Panellist. Panellist, yes that's right. That sounds jolly. Not an analyst, but a panellist . . When, when erm Phil has had is training tomorrow, he will become an expert amongst us and will erm put my rather partial knowledge into the into the shade, but basically what I've got here is a blank form for everybody to fill in — a job description questionnaire — together with job description guide notes, which should go together. You obviously haven't had time to to look at these, and I just wanted to say one or two things Can I have a look anyway. Starting from now . erm Basically erm there are various ways in which one can actually put together the job description. I think, I mean, one way is for editors with similar jobs to get together and do a generic one erm but there's only one editor amongst us so you have no-one together with unless you want to find somebody in another group, but I don't think it's going to really serve very much purpose. No. erm I think really what erm what should happen is that erm you, with your manager, ought to to to look at the the erm to establish and agreed job description and in addition to the notes that are are are there erm I have some sample job descriptions from other parts of the Press which have been completed as a framework job and erm we can discuss that in any kind of detail you want. But it really doesn't matter how we who does the job description erm whether it's you, or whether it's me or your manager, but it has to be agreed erm by both parties. erm There are job analysts who will help you, in addition to erm the kind of help informally that that erm that Phil could could offer once he's had his training. As a job panellist, you're actually in the business of assessing job descriptions, rather than presenting them, right? mhm. The job analysts are in the position of actually making sure that a job description is filled in correctly before it goes to to to the jury on which Phil sits. The job analysts within E L T, are Neil Butterfield, John Dennis, Anne and Claire Nichol, and they are, in fact, if you like, a sort of second or I mean you can go to them to get advice about how to fill in the job description rather than go to your manager, or if if if you have some dispute or disagreement or whatever the job analysts can can can help in that. It really is a question of the job analysts being expert. They've had additional training in in erm filling in correctly the the the form and will pick up erm for example on the erm the principal accountabilities — every accountability should have three parts, it should be an action verb to help, or to do, or to ensure, or whatever and it should be what it is you're doing and thirdly it ought to have some sort of erm target in in in doing it. You've got to have a list of words there. A list of words . Read them out for the tape recorder. And erm so it's a A quick Corpus check on these . So a typical accountability will read something like ‘to erm help decide erm publishing policy in order that something should be achieved’, so it has those those those three parts to it. It's that kind of formality within the job description that that that will be the area where the job analysts, i.e. Butterfield, Dennis and Nichol, will be able to help with. Essentially you'll that erm the the analysts are erm hand on, uhm, ‘both managers a such should be encouraged to consult the various directors and put some forethought into the sort of accessibilities, sorry accountabilities, that characterize a certain sort of job’ so although they are not all directors, Neil is is is will be our editorial expert in this. John Temple will be design expert in this erm Malcolm Price obviously production and Dave Stewart for sales and Loretta for secretaries erm and they have had a deal more training and briefing on the whole process. erm When the the the job description is signed it ought to be passed by a job analyst just to make sure to check the things that erm it has been done properly and then it has to be signed by the erm job holder, the job holder's manager and the head of division, and it has to be got to personnel. All job descriptions have got to be done not later than the twenty ninth of June. So you've got just a month to do it in. Whew. This is exactly the same as the the existing A form isn't it? I haven't checked it erm I may be wrong, but I would imagine it is very similar indeed. Yes. If not identical. Yes. Hay fever. Okay? Anything else on that? There are framework jobs and erm I've got a list of all the framework jobs that are in our area, in fact they are radical suppressive. So, for example, editorial — senior editor is Sally Wehmeiher or Cathy . They've been taken as typical of the senior editors and right across every function area is is covered by that and I've got erm sample job descriptions for all the editorial levels and I can get them for any other secretarial levels or design and I can acquire those if you want to see what has been done in terms of trying to draw up a framework, you know, that kind of thing. It won't work with some of us because they are unique jobs within the Press. Okay? Probably what the best thing to do is for for for managers to to to to sit when Vicky comes back I'll fill in for anyone who reports to me. I'll get a sort of programme, preliminary discussion, a one to one discussion, with anyone who reports to me, and then schedule a sort of follow up session on that later. Called lucky bastard . Jeremy will be doing Caroline's and you won't be doing No . Whew. It might No you won't . Thank you, Simon. Any questions on that. I am very happy, in fact, that the whole the whole process the whole business of erm switching the system has been accepted and in fact even welcomed I think by the unions. Good news. Thank you. Can we hang on to these? Yes of course. Yes. Fine, yah, we'll while away the odd moment. And on to any other business. Any other business? Please? I've got a couple of things I'd really like to mention if no-one else has got anything. We seem to have a dearth of erm, so let's go straight into Simon's other business. July conference — the area manager's conference. We've got two sessions planned erm and I would like to Rob that you and I ought to meet and talk about how we're going to handle that session in some detail and the videos. Yes, we in the next two weeks. Before you get stuck into the Yes, because it comes straight after. Well could you take responsibility for actually sort of sitting down with me sometime so we can have a meeting to talk that through? mhm. And, Tim, you and I ought to have a we're not actually going to have a formal session on self-study, but we have another we have a rather loosely structured session when we can bring up any other matters for erm basically that they'll want to plan the video session rather carefully as well basically I think we want to follow in on yesterday's meeting — we want to find out why we're not selling more videos basically and use the whole of that session if necessary for exploring with the area managers why we're not doing twice or three times as well as we are. mhm. So, that's that. Holidays. Another message from our leader here erm Mr. Mothersole. Interestingly he's talking about — this is written on the third of May, talking about the present splendid weather, which is , plus the recent report that too many British industrialists are making themselves ill because they don't take their holidays has prompted me to write to you about our holidays. Are we all going together ? Not . His view is as follows and then — this is the longest memo Peter's ever written. Basically he is against carrying your holiday over, essentially. ‘Staff in your division should be encouraged to take their full holiday entitlement. It is the managers' job to help staff plan their holiday entitlement appropriately to ensure that the workload is . Quite simply our success does not depend on anyone missing their summer holidays. Staff should be discouraged from carrying over anything more than a few holidays a few days holiday from one year to the next, unless it's for specific purposes, such as climbing, catching dingo or visiting Aunty Mabel in New Zealand. Carrying over two weeks worth of holiday from one year to another is not an adequate substitute for a ‘proper holiday’.’ So basically Peter wants to Not even proper . erm Peter wants to tighten up on on on the business of erm carrying holidays over and I think he's right, actually, erm and he also is using this opportunity to try to et us to plan our holidays as a group so that we're not all off at the same time, or if it's appropriate we should all be off a the same time then we're off at the same time, but it's erm common sense should prevail one way or another, but it would be a good idea if you could let me have erm a brief indication of any major times you plan to be away. The odd day here and there is not important, but if you could let me know within the next couple of weeks or so when you intend to take a major part of your holiday away — if you know — I don't myself know erm yet — but if you do know then I can have a look at the overall picture and see that we're not all dispersed. When you're if you're both on a shoot and that's a holiday in itself, so presumably that's I think you should take that back right now, I might Can you say that to the microphone. I missed it. I would have thought that we might go on holiday, well going on quite a long holiday, we're going on holiday after the project video's completed, so it'll be Christmas for me Okay. Just just just — if you could just if you could let me know, say within the next fortnight, if you know that is. You should see a memo from me about two weeks in September. Are you going to New Zealand, or Visit your Aunty Mabel?. Okay Is anybody going away? Complain about the time it takes for the Beano to reach me . Its the twelfth of May and it hasn't got to me. Okay, just past sorry Doctor . Right. Ah good morning. Good morning. Morning sir. What can Aye. I do for you today Mr ? Well I got that sore arm. And Right, right. remember you said it would be a rheumatic, Aha. well I went to physio. Yes. And er I went six times and it never made any bloody difference. Oh. So he came to the conclusion that I'd torn a muscle. Oh right. So I was wondering, can I get it x-rayed? Yes, sure. Because I'll tell you why, Doc, I mean Aha. it doesn't bother me, the time it I've pain, until I hit a wrong shot at golf. Cripes I could've bad once. No could feel it. As bad as that right. Let's get that . And and I was I was in in the grocery on Monday morning but erm we were go through a pack of you know. Aha. And of course they go up here beautiful and I was going to take this apple and they're all gonna fall and I got to that, Jesus it just about. Right. So I just doesn't like, That's fine and I'm Yeah. and I'm in a big competition on the twenty eighth It's . Oh. We can't have that, No. we can't have that. That's not a good sign. so my wife she fell on on on Sunday again. I'm having an awful problem to herself. She was up at er what do you call, no yesterday, and she, you know she goes to the clinic then, Yes. That's just for her blood. But they they think that she's got an absolute problem. Oh she's Oh. got a problem alright . Cos she's covered in that rash always, you remember you saw it once before? That's right. I can't believe that's right. And one one day you know it's flared up and the next day it's dead, but they say it's better coming out to the surface . Yes. Er. Is it still up this arm mostly? The right one? Aha. Right from here. It's there. Right from here. Ah. Up to the shoulder. Well it does when I when I hit the thing, but but that's when it gets when I've got to work it. Aye . That's Ah that's what they thought, and I cannae in a long . No. you know he was honest about it , Yes. it's just that I think that all happened with my electric going for running away. Oh I'll tell my wife about that and that'll that'll that'll put put a stop to that piece of nonsense . It did, I tried to save it and the damn thing came off, you know the the mhm. and it was on full power and I tried to save it after this thing came off. Aye, it seems I'd have been better letting it run on the blooming thing. And otherwise I mean there's nothing wrong, nothing . And I cannae let it interfere with my golf, can I? No. You've cer got to get things in perspective I mean that It's not, it's not only that Doctor it's in your mind, you know you That's right, yeah. You've always you've got to, you've got to be at it all the time. You're always trying to protect it. Ah, are you hitting the wee ball yourself? Not yet this year, No? not yet, no. I've well I've been to er I've been on the Hill twice this year, so. Have you? Oh aye, I like Hill. I really like it. I've been on it, er, I've had two five holes. Oh is that all? Yeah. That's all I've had so far, Mm. so far. Now do you know where this x-ray place is, Alan? It's down at the back,not. No no No. no no. I'll just I'll just draw it, draw it out for you. You know the far end of ? Aye, I've taken my wife there before. There's a wee hospital on the left . Union, union, yes. Aye. On the road between and . That's right There's the park in there, Aye. up the hill from the park there's a roundabout, Yeah. a roundabout there. And you go past it and then turn right, no . No, no no, no no. Before you reach it, there's a street in there, just before you reach it. There there are houses Oh I know, there's a big garage on the left hand side at that rounda There's a big garage in there. Aye I know. Doctor I've been there. Mhm, yeah . Big garage in there. Aha, you've been there,garage there, in the street, up here , Mhm. in through the gate, Right. and it's the building, first building on your right hand side. Just go Great and I in there, give that to the girl, she'll put you through more or less right away Yes. Aye I took my wife. When am I going? for your x-ray and we'll get that to Anytime. Oh just anytime ? Anytime. Yes, aye, it's all changed, it's all changed. I can go You can go anytime after I think it's nine fifteen or nine thirty in the morning. Oh great. Up till four o'clock in the afternoon . Oh great, Doctor, thanks. So we'll get that checked out for you Alan and we'll Just just to see cos as I say I just can't believe it . Twenty five per cent of your winnings. Right, right, it's three days at , all expenses if I win here at . Aha. It's the Scottish erm er er the Scottish er insurance company that runs it, for the whole of Britain. So aye and so we've got thirty eight guys to beat down here, and er three days at At the big house. And I'm in the final there. Right, Alan. Thanks a lot, Okay, sir, bye now. In this action the plaintiff, Anna Jane sues for damages for serious injuries she received in a motor car accident on the sixth of June, nineteen eighty seven. Liability is admitted and the case proceeds on quantum only. The case was heard in the week of November the eighth to the twelfth at Chelmsford. Speeches finished in the late afternoon of my last day there and judgement was reserved to London. The results of the accident were truly appalling. The plaintiff was just eighteen at the time she was in her A level year at school. In the car with her were her boyfriend Peter, his sister Jane and another school friend Lucy. All three of the plaintiff's friends were killed in the accident and the plaintiff sustained very grave injuries which kept her in hospitals and a rehabilitation centre for almost three years. It was not until the twenty third of May of nineteen ninety that she was finally discharged home to the care of her parents. In the accident she sustained a very severe closed head injury, a mid shaft fracture of the right humorous fractures of the lower left radius and ulna and a fracture of the right femur. She also suffered injuries to the left side of her chest and a laceration over the eye which went down to the bone. She was a, she was admitted to Hinchinbrook hospital, Huntingdon but was deeply unconscious and not responding to stimulus. Within a few hours she was transferred to the neurosurgical unit at Addenbrookes hospital, Cambridge. There she remained critically ill for several months, initially needing treatment with a ventilator to assist her breathing. On the fifteenth of June nineteen eighty seven she underwent a tracheostomy. One of the effects of a very severe head injury is that bone fractures heal extremely quickly and this caused problems in the management of the plaintiff's fractures. The fracture of the right femur healed in six weeks with two and a half inches of shortening. The left wrist developed deformities, so did both feet as a result of gross muscle spasm putting them in plantar flexion. In December nineteen eighty seven she was transferred from intensive care to a main ward, but it was not until February nineteen eighty eight that she fully emerged from coma. On the twenty fifth of April nineteen eighty eight she was transferred back to Hinchinbrook hospital. A month later on the twenty fourth of May nineteen eighty eight, there was the first of a series of operations to correct deformities of both feet and the left wrist. This particular operation was a lengthening of the right achilles tendon. It was a long and difficult operation and caused the plaintiff considerable pain afterwards. A month later on the twenty second of June nineteen eighty eight another operation lengthened the left achilles tendon. On the twenty eight of September nineteen eighty eight she had a major operation on her left wrist. This was again a very painful operation in that she still suffered pain for many weeks thereafter. Two further operations to her left wrist were carried out on the twenty seventh of January nineteen eighty nine and the twenty sixth of April nineteen eighty nine. These injuries, severe and painful though they were, are only a small part of the story when compared to the effects of the severe closed head injury. She remained in a coma for eight months, a greater part of her time at Addenbrookes. Once she had recovered full consciousness it became clear that she had entirely lost the power of speech. Later it had to be accepted that she would be wheelchair bound for the rest of her life. Effectively therefore she can neither walk nor talk and she is always going to need twenty four hour care for the rest of her life. She is now aged twenty four and there is a normal life expectation, that is a life expectation of a further fifty five years to the age of seventy nine. The picture of the plaintiff before the accident is one of a lively, bright, sociable and sporting girl in the prime of life. Thoroughly enjoying her last year at school. Taking her A levels and hoping to go on to read for a degree in hospitality management at Norwich City college. She had already taken one A level in law and had another to take in history as well. Sorry, and had another to take in history as well as an O level in mathematics at the time of the accident. I should note here that there is a dispute between the parties, as to whether she would in fact obtain the grades necessary to take up that post. She was a very active teenager and made many contributions to her school and community. She generated great warmth and friendship and was a quote social animal unquote. Popular both with her peers and with adults. Her sister Clare, eighteen months her junior, described her as quote, a sister who seemed to be able do everything, she had a never ending social life, I was amazed how she managed to fit everything in unquote. The plaintiff had boundless energy, played tennis and badminton for her school and had county trials for badminton. She played squash, was keen on swimming and had passed a bronze medal in life saving just before her accident. Her parents only came to appreciate the impact the plaintiff had made on others before her accident from the tributes that were paid to her by outsiders of the family during the months the plaintiff was in a coma at Addenbrookes. I shall have more to say the plaintiff's young life when I deal with the reports that were written on her from her school when dealing with the loss of future earnings. The contrast between her pre-accident state of health and quality of life and the plaintiff's present position after three years of in-patient treatment and more than three years of devoted care at home from her parents is stock. In addition to seeing the plaintiff in court, I have had the advantage of seeing a video, key one, showing examples of her daily routine taken on the tenth of May nineteen ninety one after she had been at home with her parents for a year. I saw the video in court and I have played it again er since this case was adjourned in November. I add a few examples from that video of what one can deduce as to the daily routine. The plaintiff can give a little assistance to those who dress her and when she's got out of bed she can stand with the assistance of one other person. She can shuffle while, when held in a bear hug, bear hug position by one of her parents in order for her to be transferred to a commode or to a wheelchair. She can manoeuvre her wheelchair in the confined spaces of her present home but not without the occasionally shunt and collision. She can be got with difficulty and the use of a wheelchair lift, out to the campervan the fa the family have. The route itself is not simple, nor is the entry into the camper camper van up a ramp. She communicates basically by using a cannon communicator which types out what she wants to say onto ticker tape which she then tears off and hands to the person to whom she wants to talk. This is her method of communication, she uses her left hand mainly to tap the keys and it is necessarily a slow process. She has no power of speech remaining to her, she also has an Acorn computer and types very many letters on it. I have read two typed statements from the plaintiff dated the twenty ninth of April nineteen ninety one, brackets see pages one to nine and the twenty eighth of June nineteen ninety one, brackets see pages twenty to twenty two closed brackets. Those statements were a testament to the life and spirit the plaintiff has within her. The first is nine pages of typed script and took her seventeen hours to do. I have also had a short conversation with her in court using the medium of her cannon communicator and its ticker tape. At home she also uses the Acorn computer to play a number of computer games including golf with her father. Her greatest interest seems to be in writing and receiving letters and she watches television, plays music and reads, usually magazines not books. It is clear that she will never marry and have children, follow a career enjoy the leisure interests of her own age group or otherwise enjoy the quality of life which so many take for granted. It is also clear that though the accident may have slightly lowered her I Q, she remains an intelligent young lady who is fully aware of everything that she has lost, but determined not to dwell on that loss. The fact that she has fought back to the level that she has now attained is a tribute to the loving care, encouragement and inspiration given her by her parents. Not only since she came home in nineteen ninety but in the three long years when she was hospitalised. Mr Peter the consultant orthopaedic surgeon who tended her first immediately after the accident at Hinchinbrook and thereafter in the year from April nineteen eighteen eight as well as seeing her from time to time since, had this to say about her parent's efforts quote I think that without their constant support and stimulation and their determination that Anna Jane would function again as a rational human being. There is every chance that Anna Jane would have remained permanently institutionalised. I think their greatest achievement was to realise that despite the fact that she was unable to speak, she was still able to communicate in other ways. Both the parents and Anna Jane's sister were in constant attendance at the hospital, nursing her and stimulating her. Helping with her physiotherapy and supporting her through what was very painful treatment. I am sure that without their constant support, the results would have been much worse than they have been. E A , eleventh of October nineteen ninety three. Mr when he gave evidence, assessed the parent's contribution as quote absolutely amazing really, not just what they did to help the nurses but also in insisting that she wasn't stupid, she just couldn't talk they made it clear to the nurses and doctors that she could understand and we weren't to treat her like a vegetable. He stated, correctly in my view, that he had quote seen her much more than anybody else unquote and confessed that when he had first treated her on the day of the accident he had quote never expected to see her again, unquote. I say here that I have been gratefully assisted by the reports and evidence of Mr Peter and Mr David from Hunstead Park in this case. I've also been greatly assisted by the detailed report and evidence of Mrs Julia the plaintiff's expert on rehabilitation costs. Where her evidence is in conflict with that of Miss Judith , the defendant's expert, I prefer the former because of the depth and variety of experience Mrs has. It will be necessary for me to return to Mr assessment of the quality and extent to which the parent's contribution has helped to achieve the plaintiff's present quality of life. When I deal with the cost of and care and also the cost nursing care for her future. It will be seen that I have to arrive at figures in respect of damages in this case under a number of heads. The first is of course that covering the plaintiff's pain, suffering and loss of amenity. To that must be added her loss of earnings throughout her life in her chosen occupation. There is also the cost of care both up to today's date given by her parents and in the future to be given by her parents and by professional carers. To this must be added the cost of accommodation in the future, it being accepted on all sides that the plaintiff's present home, though much loved by her, is not suitable in any long term assessment. There is also the cost of transport, to be used in the future to get her and her wheelchair about. There are also a host of other matters where, in the main, agreement has helpfully been reached on the figures. Sub-heading, pain, suffering and loss of amenity. I have already drawn attention to the appalling contrast between the plaintiff's young life as it was before the accident and her life as it is now. Her prolonged treatment as an in-patient meant that she was nearly a year in Addenbrookes hospital, over a year in Hinchinbrook hospital and a further year at Hunstead Park rehabilitation and medical centre. The medical reports before me deal fully with those years. Her time at home since leaving Hunstead on the twenty third of May nineteen ninety is well described in the reports and by her parents and her sister. The expert reports detail the visits to her and describe her home surroundings. She is now left in the situation where she is wheelchair bound. In need of twenty four hour care to get through the day. Only able to take part in a limited range of activities at home and particularly seriously, she is only able to hold a conversation by the laborious method of tapping out her comments on ticker tape through using her cannon communicator. This is a severe disability in one so young, where the speed of communication of youth is an ever present part of daily life. As Mr said in an earlier report, brackets B twelve closed brackets quote,Anna Jane is a quick witted intelligent girl and it is obviously extremely frustrating for her to have to type her conversations, unquote. The psychiatric report from doctor brackets B twenty three closed brackets noted that, quote, most avenues of normal life are now closed to Anna and will remain closed to her permanently. She retains a liveliness of mind which is quite extraordinary under the circumstances and she still displays a keen sense of humour and a warmth of contact despite the fact that she has to use a machine. While this is some ways a mercy, it nonetheless serves to accentuate the loss that she experiences. It will increase her anxieties about the future and it will also and it does indeed, cause great frustration, frustration at her terrible disabilities. She is an extraordinary young woman who dares her difficulties with great fortitude and makes every effort not to show her unhappiness to those around her. However, unhappiness, guilt and a sense of terrible loss is with her almost constantly. I interrupt the report of doctor to si to say that I have seen that conclusion for myself in her writings that I have read. Doctor goes on when one considers her potential life in terms of an academic achievement and marriage with a family, one can only say that without a shadow of doubt she has been devastated and her emotionally devastation will I fear, increase over the years, unquote. For my part I entirely accept doctor assessment. The plaintiff's position now is that she has to face the fact that she's wheelchair bound for life and unable to speak. As well as the fact, already mentioned, that she requires twenty four hour care. This, at the moment, is being undertaken by her parents. Her father has to sleep in the same room since he has to attend to her during the night when she may need a bed pan up to four times. She is generally continent but may be incontinent of urine once a week. She needs assistance to get her on and off the toilet and in cleaning herself after opening her bowels. She cannot brush her own hair, or clean her teeth adequately. She can drink from a beaker with a lid and straw, but has to have someone with her because of the risk of choking. She can hold a spoon and feed herself but only slowly and with spillage. Her food has to be in sandwich or semi-pureed form for easy swallowing and again to reduce the possibility of choking. She can use a pen in her right hand for short notes. There is a problem with gripping which has shown some improvement but which is apt to be most problematical when, for instance, she is concentrating hard at her computer. These constraints on the quality of her daily life, are enormous. The change from what she was to what she has become is a vast one. Law of the evidence in relation to that change will be apparent when I deal with the question of loss of future earnings. As I have already indicated she has entirely lost the possibility of marriage, children and an enjoyable career. It is in the light of these matters that I have to decide upon the appropriate evidence up upon the appropriate figure for pain, suffering and loss of amenity. Naturally enough different figures are advanced by council on either side, though that difference on this particular head of damage is not great. Mr for the plaintiff argues for a figure of a hundred and thirty thousand pounds whereas Mr for the defendant submits that the claim is worth between a hundred and fifteen and a hundred and twenty thousand. Mr puts the case as comfortable with awards in the case of tetraplegia. He draws support from and the trustees of the Italian hospital and others reported in and volume two dash A four dash one O four and and , nineteen eighty six, one all England report, page three two two. Mr on the other hand, stresses that there is no continuing pain or epilepsy and no psychiatric illness such as depression. Mr stresses that there is in this case, a much longer life expectancy than in Abbel , namely fifty five compared to forty two. He says that the speech difficulties and the mental injury in this case, put the damages higher than in and . Both council agreed present day value of the award in that case would be in the vicinity of one hundred and twenty thousand pounds. I conclude that taking into account all the matters which were before, which I've attempted briefly to summarise in the introductory paragraphs and under this heading. The proper figure for general damages for pain, suffering and loss of amenity is one hundred and thirty thousand pounds. . Mrs . Mr first laid plans of mice and men is one page missing as it is only twenty five metres away and I shall have it shortly. I resume sub-heading,cost of parents care to date. It is agreed that in arriving at a figure appropriate to be rewarded for the care given by the plaintiffs to the date of trial. The period of six and a half years should be divided into two sections. First, that from the accident and until the plaintiff was discharged from Hunstead Park in May nineteen ninety and second the period the plaintiff has spent at home from such a discharge until now. For that first period, Mr claims a sum of seventeen thousand eight hundred and five pounds worked out on an hourly basis. By multiplying five thousand one hundred and ten hours by three pounds fifty, a rate something under the full commercial rate. In contract Mr does not count hours, but arrives at an overall figure of seven thousand five hundred pounds. It must not be forgotten that for this three year period the patient was being cared for in two hospitals and in Hunstead Park by a full range of no doubt dedicated professions. However, I have already referred to the views of Doctor David of the quality of the parent's care while the patient was in Hinchinbrook. I shall also refer to the views of Doctor David as to that care when the patient was at Hunstead Park. He thought the care had been, quote, managed wonderfully well, unquote. He had, quote, rarely seen a case so well managed as in this case, unquote. He also said in evidence that the quote, parental contribution has been of fundamental importance, unquote. He attached exteme , extreme importance to their visiting in the first few years. It should be stressed that in the first period, when the plaintiff was at Addenbrookes hospital, that is from June nineteen eighty seven to May nineteen eighty eight, at least one parent was in attendance for eight hours a day. The help given in the first period of Addenbrookes, when the plaintiff had her own room and was for much of the time still in a coma, was clearly signifidant , significant, not only in caring for the plaintiff's physical needs, but in giving the support and encouragement which no doubt contributed greatly to the plaintiff's emergence from that coma. For the second period at Hinchinbrook, from May nineteen eighty eight to May nineteen eighty nine again at least one parent was present for eight hours each day and assistance was given with physiotherapy, occupational therapy and speech therapy. The parents assumed responsibility for helping the plaintiff to eat her midday and evening meals. At Hunstead Park from May nineteen eighty nine until May nineteen ninety, both parents stayed for the first week and thereafter supported the plaintiff in taking her back for home visits, every weekend plus a week at Christmas and Easter. I consider that it would not be appropriate t to adhere too rigidly to the number of hours multiplied by a rate of three pounds fifty per hour suggested by Mr . But I feel that the sum suggested my Mr is far too low. It follows that I award for this period of care by the plaintiff's parents the sum of fifteen thousand pounds which equates to an award of three pounds hourly for five thousand hours. The second period covers the time from May nineteen ninety until now when the plaintiff has been solely looked after by the parents with the greatest devotion,application, selflessness and skill superimposed on their natural love and affection for the plaintiff. That care has been without the benefit of any paid help. Indeed in May nineteen ninety Mr gave up his appointment as a teacher in order that he could care for the plaintiff full time. As an of what he's lost by so doing, his gross salary for this financial year would have been twenty four thousand five hundred and sixty seven pounds. Mrs gave up her voluntary employment in order that she too could assist full time. Were the plaintiff's parents unable or unwilling to prov provide her care themselves. The annual cost of full time care including two full time staff and weekend and holiday cover, would be fifty nine thousand four hundred and twenty one pounds ninety six pence, as set out in the report of Mr Julia at B one O two. It was claimed that the plaintiff should be compensated for care of her parents to the full commercial rate in accordance with the principles expressed in Abbel . That sum as originally claimed totalled two hundred and seven thousand, nine hundred and seventy six pounds eighty six pence for this period of care. It is no conceded that that figure included matters which should not have been taken into consideration, such as the agency quotes mark-up unquotes and the effect of V A T. Figures making allowance for appropriate deductions but also including what I've said by Mr to be appropriate increases totalling one hundred and sixty thous one hundred and sixty six thousand two hundred and fifty pounds, are claimed on behalf of the plaintiff. Mr relies upon what Mr Justice as he then was, called the ceiling principle, in the Abbel case, referring to the principle enunciated in and . In Abbel Mr Justice found it appropriate for the plaintiff quote, to recompense his parents up to the commercial rate for one full time carer, unquote. On that basis Mr took the cost of one professional carer as twenty three thousand eight hundred and six pounds a year, he multiplied by three point five and arrived at a figure of eighty three thousand three hundred and twenty one pounds. Mr Mr had an alternative calculation. He thought to take Mr gross salary in the present financial year, to reduce it by a third to get from gross to net earnings and to do similar calculations for the rest of the three and a half years so as to arrive at the figure of fifty three thousand nine hundred and six pounds. It should be noted that the figure of twenty three thousand eight hundred and six pounds which Mr had had taken is the cost of the carer paid on the basis of quote,proscript charges, unquote, advocated by the defendant's expert Mrs and not the British Nursing Agency charges, advocated by the plaintiff's expert Mrs . Brackets, for the B N A charges, see B one thirty, where the carers fee is an hourly rate of four pounds twelve pence, but the inclusive cost to the client, with the mark-up, is six pounds and ten pence. Again I accept the constant parental care has been of the highest calibre and I remind myself of the many tributes to the quality of that care in the evidence before me. I also remind myself of the effect upon the plaintiff's fathers career, of his decision to give up work in order to attend the plaintiff. I pause to state that I accept Mr submission that no claim for loss of pension has been made out on the evidence before me. The pension has been transferred to the Legal and General and has been left there at the present time to grow and be managed. I should have something to say later on about future care by Mr . I reject both of the methods of calculation submitted by Mr . I also reject each of the additions submitted by Mr to the net commercial care valuation put by him at thirty six thousand one hundred and fifty pounds and seventy two pence. He had advocated an addition of either a half of the agency mark-up, which would produce a figure of forty seven thousand seven hundred and eighty six pounds and thirty four pence or alternatively a factor of twenty five percent which would produce a figure of forty five thousand one hundred and eighty eight pounds and forty pence. I conclude that the proper figure to be used as a cost in this second period is the net commercial care valuation of Mrs figures, which would be thirty six thousand, one hundred and fifty pounds and seventy two pence. That multiplied by three point five comes to the figure of a hundred and twenty six thousand, five hundred and twenty seven pounds fifty two pence, which is the figure I would award. . Sub-heading care for the future. The problems I have to resolve under this heading are not made any easier by uncertainty, even in the short term future, as to who will be doing the caring and at what stages changes to the present regime will take place. Both the father and mother have already put in six and a half years of devoted care and certainly physically and perhaps mentally the strains are beginning to tell. I have reports from doctor , their general practitioner brackets B two one eight and two one nine, close brackets, on the state of their physical health. Mr has low back pain, sometimes with left sided sciatica, which he's suffered from since the twenty second of June nineteen eighty eight and which may have been exacerbated by lifting the plaintiff. Mrs has recently undergone a hysterectomy and also has recurrent neck, shoulder and arms pains from the nineteen eighty one traffic accident. I want it to be clearly understood that I do not in any way mean to suggest there is any question of prevarication when I say that as to the prospect for the future there is essentially a difference between what the plaintiff's parents said in their statements made as recently as the twenty eighth of October of this year and what they said in their evidence about their attitude to future care. To deal first with their statements, Mr accepted in his statement that he and his wife would not be able to care physically for Anna Jane indefinitely and spoke of the intention to introduce the use of carers gradually. Mrs in her statement said that, quote, although my husband and I would like to be able to care for Anna Jane as long as possible, I accept that the last six years have taken their toll on us and the reality is that it's unlikely that we will be able to provide the same level of care and same level of care and outside carers are required, unquote. Mr in his evidence spoke of their quotes, beginning to think that alternative regime, when we began to realise that we had limits, unquote. He accepted that the introduction of a night sleeper was something which couldn't be contemplated in their present accommodation because it would involve the carer sleeping in the same room as the plaintiff. He accepted however that once this case was over the real hunt for more suitable accommodation would begin and by that time, at least, there could be the introduction of such a carer. Mr later on in her evidence said, quote, I consider that after six and a half years, I deserve to have a life of my own, it is not a prison sentence, I have done nothing wrong, I wish to be free to give assistance at my choice, we cannot continue to live in our present home, Michael and I cannot continue to look after Anna in the way we have. All these matters show that it is a vexed question when exactly there will be a change in the regime and that is a question I shall seek to answer a little later on. However, one question, to which there is a clear answer is what is said to be the plaintiff's life expectancy. It is accepted by the medical experts on either side that a t that at twenty four, the plaintiff's expectation life is substantially unaffected by the accident. The life expectancy of a girl of twenty four, according to conventional tables, is for the age of seventy nine and is thus fifty five years. It's on that basis that a whole life multiplier must be found. Mr relies on Hunt and Sellers nineteen ninety three, for all England reports one eighty and two O one, where the said, quote, what we need is a simple arithmetic calculation of the present value of future payments. Council have provided us with a table which shows that the present value of one pound per annum, payable for the next twenty five years, discounted at four point five percent is fourteen point eight two eight two one pounds, unquote. Mr relied on the same table to produce a figure of twenty point two five pounds on a life expectancy of fifty five years and accepted a reduction to twenty for the whole life multiplier. This was an advance from the figure of nineteen claimed by the defence on the pleadings. Mr contended that the case was different from Hunt and Sellers in that there was an agreed expectation of life. He said that the proper approach was to be found in against the National Coal Board nineteen eighty five one weekly reports nine thirty at ninety five. He submitted that the multiplier should be seventeen for the whole life. Those then are the two approaches of the parties in relation to the appropriate multiplier to be applied when working out the cost of future care for the plaintiff. Mr had opted for the figure nineteen, for the multiplier in the pleadings in this case. After the decision in and which was only reported on the fifth of October of this year in the all England reports. He moved to take the figure to twenty. Mr selected the figure seventeen it is in no spirit of perversity that I have lit upon a figure not contended for by either of the parties, namely eighteen. I have looked at the approach followed in and . I've also looked at the approach in and National Coal Board. An expectation of life, as was pointed out in and nineteen seventy two one sixty five at eighty five to eighty six, is a matter of probability taken for actuarial purposes to be treated as a certainty. It relates to the average man or woman and no one can say whether an individual plaintiff is that average man or woman. The calculation has therefore to be discounted to allow for the various imponderants. In this case I consider particularly that there are, there are a great many imponderants. I consider the and figure should be discounted down to eighteen, which is the figure I adopt for the whole life multiplier. I accept Mr submissions on Autee that arrive at a different figure from him. I remind myself that Autee was a case concerning a pension scheme. In Autee Lord Justice had this to say at page nine two seven quote,having decided that he, brackets the judge close brackets, could make no allowance for the possibility of increased pension payments because of the increased cost of living index, he had to decide the present day value of the fixed sum payable in thirty one years time. He chose a five percent discount rate table and in my opinion nobody could fault such a choice. Two. It was submitted A that the judge in taking a multiplier of seven to compensate the ten point four years loss, was taking a figure that was too low and B, that in applying a substantial discount for other imponderables he was discounting twice over for early death. A, the judge did not explain the use of seven as a multiplier but it not suggested that such a calculation could be done with complete accuracy and using a five percent table, the judge was faced with choosing between seven and eight. He chose seven and in my opinion this court should not interfere. B, the discount for imponderables which the judge made in Autee's case, was twenty seven percent. The judge said that the imponderables included voluntary wastage, redundancy, dismissal, supervenient ill health, disablement or death before sixty five and said that death was the major discount. It was submitted that the risk of death was already taken into consideration in the expectation of life. This is a misunderstanding. The expectation of life is an average and assumes everybody lives to that age and then dies but in fact some die before and some after. Those who die before are the important ones. Sir Gordon in and nineteen seventy two sixty five page five twenty six. After saying that actuarial calculations were based on the performance of the average man, went on quote, the average man has an expectation of life of a certain number of years. This is a matter of probability but for purposes of actuarial calculation, it has to be treated as a certainty. Yet nobody can say whether an individual plaintiff is an average man or that he will live for the expectation of life of an average man of his age. Any actuarial calculation must therefore be discounted to allow for the chance that he may only live for a shorter period. The chances and not the probabilities are what the judge has to evaluate in any given case. It is true that there is also a chance that the individual plaintiff may live longer than the average expectation of life. The chances are equal either way but as a matter of calculation it can be shown that the impact of the chance of shorter life is of greater significance than that of longer life, end quote. Lord Justice went on, quote, I agree with this indeed when making the calculations the judge had to make, those who die early are the only ones which matter because the fact of living longer than the expectation is immaterial. It is thus that I arrive at my multiplier for the whole life of eighteen. As to the multiplicand and the way it's arrived at. There was again a divergence between the parties. It is worthy of note at this stage that on Mr t to say that on Mr calculations the figures for multiplier and multiplicand to the cost of total ca er of future care involved an addition to a total sum of one million two hundred and twenty five thousand seven hundred and fifty five pounds and twenty eight pence. On Mr calculations for the defendant on the other hand the cost was said to be six hundred and twenty thousand three h three hundred pounds and thirty one pence. In short the one calculation was almost double the other. Mr set out his calculations in three separate bids. The first was from now for ten years. The second from that point on until the parents were in their seventies and the third after the death of the parents. For the first period he took as a starting point his previously arrived figure of forty seven thousand five hundred pounds and as an end point a figure of fifty nine thousand four hundred and twenty one pounds ninety six pence, derived from Mrs . A mean of the two with a multiplier of four arrived at a figure of two hundred and thirteen thousand, eight hundred and forty three pounds and ninety two pence. In the second period, applying a multiplier of six to the figure of fifty nine thousand four hundred and twenty one pounds and ninety six pence, he arrived at a figure of three hundred and fifty six thousand five hundred and thirty one pounds and seventy six pence. For the third period he applied a multiplier of ten to Mrs figure in B one O four of sixty five thousand five hundred and thirty seven pounds and ninety six pence, to produce a figure of six hundred and fifty five thousand three hundred and seventy nine pounds and sixty pence. Those were the figures which he aggregated to produce a total of over one point two million pounds. Mr calculations on the other hand split into two periods, one of eight years and one of nine. For the first period he took as his starting point a figure of twenty thousand three hundred and seventy eight pounds to cover the parents involved. That figure was made up as to sixteen thousand three hundred and seventy eight pounds being two third of Mr salary plus an addition of about four thousand pounds to cover Mrs additional help. To that we added a night keeper and relief, brackets B two six four close brackets, and an allowance for physical help during the day charged at the crossroads rate which brought the total up to thirty three thousand five hundred and twenty eight pounds and twenty pence. That figure multiplied by eight for the first period gave a total of two hundred and sixty eight thousand two hundred and twenty four pounds. To that figure he added a total of three hundred and fifty two thousand one hundred and seven pounds for the future made up of a yearly figure of thirty nine thousand one hundred and twenty three pounds for Mrs evidence, multiplied by nine. It was thus that he arrived at his figure of six hundred and twenty thousand three hundred and thirty one pounds to the overall cost of future care in this case. Those contrary approaches, contrary calculations and contrary totals, the one nearly twice the other, had only to be set up to illustrate the difficulty of the problems in this case. I first deal with evidence in relation to how and when the caring regime will change in the future. Mr in his statement C thirty three, had said quote, although he wished to care for Anna Jane as long as possible, I have already begun to have problems with my back therefore we intend to introduce the use of carers gradually so that Anna Jane gets used to them. I have already quoted Mrs in her statement brackets C forty eight, saying although my husband and I would like to be able to care for Anna Jane as long as possible, I accept the last six years have taken their toll on us both and in reality it's unlikely that we will continue to be able to provide the same level of care and outside is required, unquote. By the tear by the time each of them came to give evidence in this case it was clear that each had brought forward in their own minds the time when daytime carers would be needed. Mrs the plaintiff's expert thought it was quote, extremely unreasonable to expect Mr and Mrs to continue caring as they do for their daughter, unquote. Mrs the defendant's expert in her statement formed the view that the plaintiff's parents quote, will remain the main carers for the rest of their natural lives, unquote. She said quote, I do not accept that Mr and Mrs will hand over the care of their daughter to paid carers until it is absolutely necessary. When I discussed this possibility with them Mrs became very agitated, unquote. Mrs said that quote, when the time comes that Mr and Mrs are unable to provide all or any of the care themselves, I consider that it would be appropriate to employ carers direct and not via an agency. Agency care is not a permanent solution and it as agency carers can never be as good as two or three permanent staff. Support for my argument that agency care is likely to be used comes from the findings of a follow up survey of a nineteen er sorry, comes from the findi , I I'll start that sentence again. Support for my argument that agency care is unlikely to be used comes from the findings of a follow up survey. One hundred and fifty three personal injury claims received awards of a hundred and fifty thousand or more in nineteen eighty seven and nineteen eighty eight. The study found that in practice family members remained the primary carers, unquote. In her evidence she said that Mr and Mrs needed assistance to care for their daughter. She said I think in practice they will make considerable input in the care of their daughter, not necessarily with the heavy physical work of care. I found it impossible to get from Mr and Mrs what their care would be, they were either unable or unwilling to discuss it with me, unquote. As to who would provide the care she said that where there is care over a long period of time, families often stop employing carers through an agency. She said quote, I really don't accept the agency argument, I've not met one family that has continued with agency care. Agency care is not the answer, I'm not aware why they say agency care because they have no experience of it. I think the family is being asked to accept something which they have no experience of, unquote. She agreed however, that if agency care was appropriate then sixty thousand pounds plus was the cost of that care. Doctor the medical expert called on behalf of the defendant, had discussed the question of future care in a visit he made to the plaintiff's hou home in July this year. He had discussed with the pl parents in the presence of the plaintiff, the care options. The conclusion was that quote, Anna Jane was to be cared for primarily by her parents, I am not saying exhaustively, they wanted to be involved for as long as they were able to do. There was no dissent from Anna Jane, unquote. He thought it was reasonable for them not to provide night care even now and essential for them to have a night sleeper for seven nights a week from this time on. He thought it was also reasonable and sensible for any family involved in long term care to have additional assistance for particularly strenuous and regular activities. He had in mind particularly the getting up of a patient in the morning, the morning routine and also the going to bed at night. He felt that two hours in the morning and one hour at night was the appropriate assistance. He spoke of the research evidence of the few people who are gi who are given money for care, taken up after the settlement of their cases and added his own experience. He said quite, quote, in my experience people who have access to, or are offered this level of care, even if it's even if it is started, it is rarely continued for more than a few months. He said the explanation was resided in two factors. First the socially disrupted effect of various carers coming into the home and secondly, the practical difficulties of ob of obtaining carers. He said quote, if there are relatives available, a care package does not normally work. Somebody elects to stop it because it is not satisfactory, unquote. As to alternative sources of care he thought the better answer was the crossroads organisation rather than an nursing agency. He thought that the question of involvement with the patient was quote, precisely what you do not get with the agency, they, meaning the agency, are professionals taking a professional, non-involved approach. No staff do it short term or as an addition to their normal job. Much more commitment comes through crossroads whose workers are untrained in the sense that they are not qualified, but are expert carers. He said from experience that in using an agency it was extremely difficult to get even a small number of carers, quote, you know who is coming when they arrive through the door, unquote. Doctor made it clear that in comparing crossroads with a nursing agency, he was not saying that crossroad were any better than the agency but they were less expensive. The current rates were between two pounds sixty and three pounds ten pence an hour. I have already referred to the B N A rate, the British Nursing Agency rate of four pounds and twelve pence, without mark-up. I found Doctor an impressive witness. He had both academic and practical experience of the problems of which he was speaking. He was lecturer in clinical neurology at the University of Oxford, consultant at consultant in neurological disability at the Radford Infirmatory , Infirmary and the Rivermead Rehabilitation Centre, Oxford. He was responsible for twenty five to thirty in-patients and thirty to forty out-patients at Rivermead, he was also responsible for a hundred and thirty patients attending Richie Russell House, Oxford for relief care. I found his professional knowledge and experience for the management of patients severely disabled consequent upon head injury, to be extremely valuable. I wish to state however that there were two areas in his evidence which I found myself totally unable to accept. First, in his evidence he referred to a better solution as being quotes, seeks a small residential setting with some other people, unquote and went on to refer to the possibility of the plaintiff entering one of the Cheshire Homes. In cross examination he accepted that there was no such reference in any report he had written in this case and agreed that quote, I don't think I've discussed Cheshire Homes before today, unquote. Mr also achieve forensic success in demonstrating that doctor knowledge of the recent medical and other expert reports in this case, over the last two to three years, were scant. That he had only looked through Mrs report on the day of his evidence and had taken five or ten minutes on Mrs report. I take full account of these defects in his evidence, but overall I found his experience of the likely care regimes introduced in cashes, in cases such as that of the plaintiff to be of assistance. I know have to give my conclusions to the resolution of that conflicting and often very, very massive evidence as to how the plaintiff's care routine will change, when it will change and from where the carers will come. The starting point for these conclusions is the plaintiff's parents. I have nothing but the highest admiration for the quality and devotion of the work they have put into the care of the plaintiff over the last six and a half years. With the plaintiff's cooperation and the assistance of care, they have seen to it that the plaintiff was not to be institutionalised and that she was to be brought back into a loving home and encouraged to be the thinking, intelligent and lively person she still is. However, I conclude that notwithstanding that the strain of all that they have done, they at present, leave them to feel that they will transfer their physical caring duties to paid helpers in the immediate future. That will not happen immediately or alternatively it will only happen for a short period of time. I conclude that they have done so much and so well they will find it hard to let go those duties. I conclude that after a short interregnum, which they have richly deserved and when the full regime of paid helpers may be set up, they will revert to taking an active part in the physical care of the plaintiff as well in the mental care in which they will have remained ever present. I consider they will accept the continued need for a night sleeper for now on but that within a short period of instituting a full paid up carer regime they will revert to a regime which includes only one paid carer and will provide the further physical assistance between them. I find that will continue to be the position for the next ten years. I take as a second period the ten years thereafter until the parents are about their early seventies. I conclude that it will probably ne be necessary for there to be a regime dependent on paid carers. I conclude that such carers will either be obtained from the crossroads organisation or something similar or from private advertisement but not from a nursing agency. I take as the third period that which follows upon the death or incapacity of the parents. It is probable that it will be necessary to use the services of a nursing agency at this time because the evidence satisfies me that the tasks of the advertising for, interviewing and then appointing carers on a continuing basis will not be one which the plaintiff can carry out, nor will her sister Clare by then probably married with a family and perhaps living elsewhere, be able to undertake such frequent duties. It follows that I must translate those conclusions into figures. The cost of care for the first ten years from now on was taken by Mr on his calculations to amount to two hundred and thirteen thousand eight hundred and forty three pounds and ninety two pence, using a multiplier of four and a multiplicand of fifty three thousand four hundred and sixty pounds and ninety eight pence. These figures are of course calculated on the nursing agency rates. I have already indicated why I consider these rates not to be appropriate at this stage. It follows that my calculations make allowance for two carers, either both being paid workers, or alternatively a combination of one worker and the joint efforts of the parents as a second, as a second worker. For this care I award forty thousand pounds per year and take as a multiplier the figure three to give a sum of one hundred and twenty thousand for the first period. For the second period of ten years again I discount down the full agency rates, totalling fifty nine thousand four hundred and twenty one pounds and ninety six pence year yearly, to the sum of forty thousand pounds annually and to apply a multiplier of six, producing the figure of two hundred and forty thousand pounds for the second period. For the third period, that after the parents' death or incapacity, I do accept the reasonableness of employing a nursing agency and therefore on this occasion I do accept Mr figure per year of sixty five thousand five hundred and thirty seven pounds and ninety six pence. I apply a multiplier of nine, it follows that the figure I allow for this period is five hundred and thirty four thousand seven hundred and ninety seven pounds and sixty four pence and the total cost of future care is therefore eight hundred and ninety four thousand seven hundred and ninety seven pounds and sixty four pence. Sub-heading, accommodation. It was agreed on all sides that the present home of the family is not appropriate for the plaintiff, despite the extensive works which have necessarily been carried out to it. The cost of those alterations was forty two thousand seven hundred and eighty six pounds and eighty six pence, of which the local authority paid about a quarter, namely nine thousand eight hundred and forty seven pounds. The remainder of thirty two thousand nine hundred and thirty nine pounds and eighty six pence was covered by an interim payment by the defendants. Argument has been addressed to me as to how that sum should fall to be represented in the damages awarded, bearing in mind that it has been substantially discharged by an interim payment and that it will not inure to any log term benefit of the plaintiff. Suffice it to say that I find that had those alterations not been carried out when they were, it would not have been possible for the plaintiff to be discharged from Hunstead Park in May of nineteen ninety since her home would not have been suitable for her. It follows that the continuing heavy costs of care at Hunstead Park would have gone on and would have been a proper claim against this defendant. Again those alterations do not materially increase the value of the parent's home it is not in any event their property. Evidence has been put before me of the most unusual arrangement come to, in relation to a possible ability of the parents to buy the property at half the sitting tenant valuation. The legal position in relation to the ag arrangement is uncertain since it is not expressed to provide it for in the will of Mrs who is, who is the very kindly elderly neighbour who is the landlord, but is only contained in a letter of Mrs from whom I have not heard in evidence. Whether that intention of Mrs will continue once this case is over and the plaintiff is awarded damages of the size involved here, or whether an alternative beneficiary will be found, cannot be certain. In all the circumstances I consider that the proper course is not to find if there's any windfall element of the plaintiff's parents and therefore to ignore such arguments. It follows that the cost of the alterations to the present home was a reasonable one to be born by the defendant and need not further be considered. It is therefore to the sum which is to be awarded in relation to the plaintiff's future accommodation that I now turn. It is, and always has been, common ground. The plaintiff will have to move as soon as possible to move suitable accommodation which will inevitably be a bungalow. However as with so many other things in this case, the specification for that bungalow has changed as the case has developed. Mr Hugh of the Wyvern Partnership in Devizes was the architect who gave expert evidence on the subject. He having specialised in designing and building accommodation for disabled people and elderly people since nineteen sixty nine. He spoke of the unsuitability of the present accommodation and his report said that quote, a minimum of five usable bedrooms is required, so it may be necessary to obtain a six bedroom property and this may be difficult to find. Bedrooms are required for Mr and Mrs Anna Jane, Clare and two for her carers. There is only one possible option for re- housing, which should be considered and that is to purchase a three bedroomed bungalow and add an extension. end quote. It is clear that he was considering that that extension would add two further bedrooms . Mr then gave figures for that operation which totalled fifty three thousand six hundred and thirty eight pounds and fifty five pence. However, as the evidence developed before him, it became clear that it was not necessary for the carers to sleep overnight and thus, plus they did not need bedrooms and therefore a four bedroomed bungalow with rooms for the plaintiff, her parents, the night sleeper and one for Clare or to be used as a spare room, would be sufficient. A number of estate agents property particulars were produced in evidence, none having any great relevance to the matter at issue and seemingly collected at random when the claim related to a five or six bedroomed bungalow. Credit was given in the claim to the cost of whatever property the plaintiff would have purchased in any event had the accident not happened. I accept a figure of sixty thousand pounds as representing the plaintiff's notional house in such circumstances and a hundred and twenty thousand pounds as being the probably cost of the bungalow the plaintiff is to purchase. It follows that the difference that the subject of the claim is sixty thousand pounds. Mr puts his claim for loss of interest on the extra capital employed using a multiplier of twenty at forty eight thousand two hundred and forty pounds. This is a claim based on a four percent interest rate, not a two percent which would be used on the basis of and nineteen eighty eight three weekly report, law reports one two four seven. Mr justifies abandoning the approach in and on the basis that the decision was arrived at in a different housing market, when it was reasonable to conclude that the plaintiff's loss of interest on the capital employed would be exceeded by the increase in the value of the property. For my part, while I accept the housing market has changed radically since and was decided five years ago. I do not feel able to speculate as to whether or not it will recover sufficiently over the period in which we are dealing as to be again a and situation. I consider therefore despite Mr arguments to the contrary that the proper rate of interest to take is two percent. The proper figure per annum is therefore twelve hundred pounds to which a multiplier of has to be applied, making a total of twenty one thousand six hundred pounds. As to the cost of alterations, the difference in sums suggest it is wide ranging. Mr suggests the alterations needed to a four bedroomed bungalow will be minimal and allows only two thousand pounds for them. Mr deletes only a very, a few small items totalling just over three thousand pounds worth from the fifty three thousand six hundred and thirty eight pounds and fifty five pence sum claimed in Mr report. To include the building an extension thereby arriving at a total of more than fifty thousand pounds. I find that the evidential basis for Mr designing and building accommodation for disabled people and elderly is only one possible option for re-housing that should be considered and that is to purchase a three bedroomed bungalow and add an extension, quotes, has gone from this case. It is no longer that I find that it is a four bedroomed bungalow which is required, with bedrooms of sufficient size in the case of the plaintiff and the plaintiff's parents and that work of alteration er to the bungalow will be necessary along the lines of Mr report but it will not involve the building of any extension. It follows that for the alterations to a four bedroomed bungalow to include any necessary enlargement of a bathroom come to a figure which I allow of twenty five thousand pounds. The additional expenditure totalling seven thousand five hundred and three pounds claimed B one nine seven also includes those items which would be incurred with any move and other items which would be involved with furnishing two extra rooms. Accordingly I reduce that figure to five thousand pounds. I further allow additional property insurance for a four bedroomed house at fifty seven pounds and forty six pence annually with an eighteen year multiplier which gives the total sum of one thousand and thirty four pounds twenty eight pence. The sums I award under the heading of accommodation therefore amount in total to fifty two thousand six hundred and fort thirty four pounds twenty eight pence. Sub-heading loss of future earnings. Before her accident the plaintiff wanted to be a conference organiser and had intended to go into hospitality management as a career. To that end she had a place at Norwich City College to read for a B A in hospitality management subject to achieving the right grades in her A levels and achieving O level maths or its equivalent. She had in fact taken one A level, her law exam but only in fact achieved a D grade. So that had she been able to take her history exam, she would have needed rather a good grade there, perhaps a better grade than her past performance suggested she would have attained. Again her mathematics O level was already a re-sit and again it might have been beyond her at that stage. Whilst recognising all her sporting and social successes I also have to recognise that she was not an academic high flyer. It is appropriate here that I quote from passages in the report of the headmaster Mr which was furnished to Norwich City College. These passages I have already referred to as being extremely indicative of the wonderful girl that Anna Jane was before her accident and I have been very much in mind in the earlier part of my judgement. It is convenient to deal with them here while we are dealing with the question of loss of future earnings. As to the plaintiff's academic record Mr said this. Anna's academic ability does not match her social skills which are outstanding, she is expected to gain a grade E in history at A level with the possibility of a D in law. I pause to indicate those would not have been sufficient grades to get her her place at Norwich, close quotations, close brackets. She is currently re-taking her mathics mathematics O level and hopes to obtain a grade C. She is diligent in all her studies with a determination to do as well as possible, while her powers of expression are adequate, she has a fine sense of initiative and can organise her material persuasively. In the next paragraph as to special aptitude Mr went on quote, there is an outstanding ability to make others feel that she is especially interested in their welfare and to put them at their ease. She is able to inspire and motivate other students to undertake community welfare tasks and she shows qualities of leadership as well as the ability to work as one of a team, close quotes. That assessment has only to be read to indicart to indicate what it fortended for future success in her chosen career. At the further confidential statement by Mr runs to four pages er, sorry, I'm sorry, runs to four paragraphs and because of the insight into the plaintiff before the accident I will read it in its entirety. Quote, Anna is possibly the most socially competent member of a sixth form of more than two hundred students. Unfortunately this is not matched by her academic ability. She can expect to obtain an E in history at A level, possibly a D in law. She is re-taking mathematics O level in November and after private tuition is expected to gain a C grade. This is to tell only part of the story however Anna is diligent in all her studies with a determination to do as well as possible, while her powers of expression are adequate she has a fine sense of initiative and within her limitations can organise her materials persuasively. In terms other than the academic, Anna is the ideal sixth former. She has played an active part in the sixth form committee, displaying remarkable skills in organising and motivating others. She was an outstanding publicity manager for a recent school drama production, enlisting the support of local businesses as well as that of other students. She has applied to the Barbican and Wembley Conference Centre in the hopes of obtaining work experience in her chosen career before starting the course of training. Anna undertakes all she does with a disarming cheerfulness and delightful charm. She has a most endearing, conscientious character. Throughout her school career Anna has been involved in a plethora of sporting clubs participating as fully in organisation terms as she has as a sportswoman. Having talked sensibly to Anna about her chosen course of study, I am certain she is aware of the demands it will make on her. She sha she has also asked if her place could be deferred for a year so that she may gain as much relevant experience as possible before taking up the course. She has considered this most carefully and all her tutors are agreed she would suit the course admirably. We are confident in recommending her strongly to you. I say again that it is clear those qualities would have been idly suited, ideally suited to the career she wished to embark upon. As to what would have happened without the event of the accident in her A level year by way of results, I regret I have to find as a fact that she would not in the year of her accident, have achieved the grades necessary for her to take up a place at Norwich City College. I hasten to add however, that in my view that would not have materially altered her ability to go on to get a qualification and succeed in her chosen career. I find that the qualifications she would have got was either the degree she hoped for or a Higher National Diploma for reasons which I shall now set out. The evidence of whether she would have taken up her place at Norwich in Autumn nineteen eighty seven or would have taken a year off and started in Autumn nineteen eight eight is equivocal. If anything it points, as is indicated in the report I've just read, to there being a year off. Equally sums for loss of earnings in that year are claimed in the plaintiff's claim. On the balance of probabilities therefore I find she would not have started her course until Autumn nineteen eighty eight. Thereby finishing her degree course in the Summer of nineteen ninety two. I find on the balance of probabilities that if she did not achieve the necessary results for entry to college in the Summer of nineteen eighty seven, she would have achieved such grades by using the year Summer nineteen eighty seven to Summer nineteen eighty eight to re-site whatever was necessary. I'm satisfied that with her persistence and the loving encouragement of her parents, she would by then have achieved the necessary entrance qualifications. It follows that even by she would again have finished her degree in the Summer of nineteen ninety two. If I'm wrong as to that, there was also open to her a further route to a degree qualification. That was to start a H N D course in the Autumn of nineteen eighty seven, completing the two years in the Summer of nineteen eighty nine. The evidence was that it was then possible to change from the H N D course to start the second year of the graduate course in what had been Autumn nineteen eighty nine. That route to a B A in hospitality and match mana management would have again ended with her graduation in the Summer of nineteen ninety two. I am satisfied that whichever route she followed the plaintiff had sufficient intelligence, personality and drive to achieve the degree she wanted by the Summer of nineteen ninety two. Her career after graduation was the subject of expert evidence given by Mr for the plaintiffs. His qualifications were impressive and his evidence persuasive. I accept the level of attainance of which he spoke as being likely in the case of the plaintiff's career and I accept the sums which he spoke of as her potential earnings. No contrary evidence was called, although Mr evidence was clearly tested in cross examination. As at today's date, she was at the age of twenty, as she i , as at today's date she, at the age of twenty four, would have had a further working life of thirty six years. I note that there is in train a proposal to change legislation to provide for a later retirement date for females to equate with those of the males. That is not a matter that I can take into consideration other than to say that I am satisfied that the proper figure for a multiplier for working life, er which I shall take in this case, is the multiplier of sixteen contended for by Mr . I take that multiplier and divide it into separate periods of one, three and twelve respectively. From Mr evidence I assessed her net year earnings up to her fourth year as nine thousand pounds and with a multiplier of one, award that sum. For the years from the fourth to the tenth I assess her net earnings at twelve thousand three hundred pounds and award the sum of thirty six thousand nine hundred pounds on a multiplier of three. For the third period in general management for the rest of her working life, I assess her annual salary at fifteen thousand nine hundred pounds net, to which I apply a multiplier of twelve to reach the figure of one hundred and ninety thousand eight hundred pounds. The total sum awarded for loss of future earnings is therefore two hundred and thirty six thousand seven hundred pounds. To that sum must be added under a different heading of damages, past loss of earnings for the period when she would have entered the catering industry. Namely some time in the Summer or Autumn of nineteen ninety two until today's date in December nineteen ninety three. I accept from Mr that she would have been a trainee manager for some part of that time and I assess her salary as being something like seven thousand pounds net. I consider that she would have found a job by early Autumn and therefore the sum must be more than a, nearly a year's earnings and I assess it at eight thousand pounds. I do not make any award for the sums claimed from disposable income for her employment during the said, the alleged year off, since I'm not satisfied she would have had a year off, or would have had any disposable income even if she had taken that year. Again, I do not feel she would have had any disposable income from her grant at college or part time earnings. The total sum awarded in relation to future loss of earnings is therefore two hundred and thirty six thousand seven hundred pounds and that for past loss of earnings is eight thousand pounds making a total of forty four thousand seven hundred pounds. Sub-heading transport. It is accepted that the plaintiff has a need for a new vehicle to accommodate her and her wheelchair and to replace the parent's Volkswagen. It is also accepted that the Nissan Prairie is a suitable vehicle for the plaintiff's needs. There is a dispute as to whether the cost of air-conditioning on that vehicle is property claimable, but I hold that in view of the plaintiff's physical needs as to temperature, air-conditioning is reasonably necessary. The cost of the Nissan Prairie is agreed at twenty two thousand six hundred and eight five. Mr claims for a five year replacement cycle, but I consider the vehicle is likely to have a lower mileage than is usual and that the replacement cycle should be one of eight years. I apply the A A schedule of motoring costs, B one eight one, for an engine capacity of two thousand and one to three thousand C C, of three thousand two hundred and eighty eight pounds and eighty eight pence and subtract from that figure the corresponding figure for an engine capacity of one thousand and one to fourteen hundred C C, namely one thousand two hundred and fifty three pounds and thirteen pence for the vehicle I find that she would otherwise have run. Right. I start. Erm. you work for erm Law Centre, erm, how long have you been working for the Law Centre? Been working for the Law Centre for three and a half years. Mhm. During that time erm how much involvement have you had with flats? Erm we've always been involved with the flats, Mhm. and with the tenants of the flats right Yeah. from the start. Erm but we've also been involved with p with specific projects with the tenants group. Erm one to do with tenants moving out of the flats, Mhm. and another to do with erm supplementary benefits and heating additions for tenants, in both and flats. Mhm. So the main p so the main erm that's individuals that have come in here? You're talking about individuals that have come in here, or you're talking about the tenants' association, the representation I, I, I'm say erm we've, we've been in we've been in we've been involved with individuals, Yeah. always Yeah. a a and always will be. But we've been involved with two specific projects that we've worked on in conjunction with the tenants' association, Aha . . Yeah. Erm a and that has, that has led us from the group back to the individual tenants, and one Mhm. one of those projects erm was, was an advice er advice project for tenants who were being moved out as part of the, as part of the programme of moving o of moving the tenants out, Yeah. and was to do with what the rights would be erm in terms of benefits and in terms of compensation from the council when they moved out. Mhm. The other, the other thing that we worked,w we've been working with, and are still working with, erm to take up campaign for tenants in who're on Supplementary Benefit or Housing Benefit supplement, erm to claim the higher rate heating addition for their flat. Mhm. And I think the tenants als the tenants in the low-rise flats, the maisonettes, Yeah. are also erm being involved in take up campaign for the s for the same thing. Mhm. And we've had one or two appeals so far. You've had one or two appeals actually go out? And how the how've they gone? Erm it seems to be pe depend very much on individual circumstances. Mhm. So the heating addition that you, that you, that you erm been talking about, that's the extra heating m money you can get if you can prove that y that your erm Accommodation is hard to he is exceptionally hard to heat, yeah. That's it. That's right, yeah, Mhm. yeah, yeah. And the main thrust of our campaign was to try and get the D, to get the D H S S to accept that as an entity, as a tower block, was hard to heat, so that the tenants would automatically get it. But they've refused to do that, and they insist on taking each case individually. Mhm. Erm because although they accept that there are certain conditions within the, within the tower block which affect the block as a whole, they would say that they would affect each individual flat to a greater or lesser degree and that they would have to be taken on individual merit. Mhm. And it's the same with the low-rise flats as well, with the maisonettes. And that's, am I right in saying that in terms of the erm move to try and get erm heating additions, it's actually started er in , and that but now there's, there's, there's been a spin-off affect, and increasingly people are trying Yes. to get the same thin trying to get the heating additions in erm, flats themselves? Yeah. And also am I, am I right in saying that the preliminary interview, you said something about erm having erm sessions, you had, for a time you were actually erm situated in the flats overni Yes, we were. Erm, it was early last year, nineteen eighty five, Yeah. erm people were starting to move out, and I think that, I think quite a lot of people, well although they'd had a lot of information from the Local Authority, were still very unsure about how that would affect other benefits, in particular supplementary benefits, and single payments, and that, that, grants for, for the furniture, that kind of thing. Erm and I think the tenants' group came to us and, and asked us if we would set up an advice session for tenants moving out, which could be situated in the flats, and could be run on a regular basis. And we agreed to do that, and we put out quite a lot of publicity. W we put leaflets through the doors of all the flats, we put posters in the local post office and the library, and the boys' club, and one or two local shops, arts and crafts, Mhm. and an advert went out on Caroline, Radio Trent. And T X R X, B B C Radio Nottingham, to the effect that there were going to be these regular advice sessions at , which is the ac the tenants' action group office. Erm a and f at first we had one or two people coming in, but then it, it, it dr it dropped off very quickly, and after about three months, I think, we decided we weren't getting enough take-up,w that we would not have the sessions in the flats any more, but that we would encourage people to come to the Law Centre if they had any problems. Erm, we, we had lots of theories about the reason, the reasons why people weren't coming to us. One, one might be that for people who are on a fairly low income or on benefits, the home-loss compensation which the council was offering did i would in fact seem like quite a lot of money erm and for any tenants who weren't in arrears, then they would receive the full amount. Er it did seem, it did seem, it would seem to a quite a lot of people that they were getting a good deal and they would accept that, and they would, relatively speaking, they were getting a good deal. Erm the other, the other factor would, might be that the kind of k er decrease and loss of morale within the, within the, within the complex. The fact that quite a lot of effort had actually gone into actually going int having negotiations with the Local Authority to, to rehouse all the tenants. Having achieved that, big sigh of relief and nothing else, kind of thing. Mhm. Erm You t you said about morale being, but why, and the, having met quite a few tenants from the flats, who in terms of individuals that have come in here, you know, to, to seek advice. You know what g how do you feel morale is in the flats at the moment? At the moment? Erm N er when you've been here what? For about three, three and a half years, Yeah. I mean has it ch is it, is it's changed during that period? Or is it Erm I w I, I can't really say whether I feel it's changed a great deal because before I, before I wasn't really very closely involved Mhm. with, with, with it, with it before I actually got involved after negotiations had gone through for the remo for the moving of the tenants. So, although I, I met individual tenants at prior to that, that was on a much more kind of ad hoc basis, they w when they were, were coming into the Law Centre, maybe about something completely different. So I wouldn't necessarily talk to them about conditions in the flats. I feel now, erm just from talking to people, that there's very much a feeling of er a torpor, erm a kind of hiatus of waiting for something to happen, waiting to be moved out, looking forward to that. Although having said that, there w there are of course other people who are probably quite very happy in their flat. Depending Mm. on Have, have you met m any, any who, who specifically said, you know, they were happy? It doesn't I've met people who've said they've, they've enjoyed living in the flats, but all the people I've known who've said that have since moved out. And I think the people, most of the people I knew who said they were happy living in their flat Yeah. are people who had a choice about where they would live. Erm so they would have ch they chose to live there and they chose to move out. This was before the actual move. The actual big move that the because of the shutting Mhm. down of the complex. Mhm. But you s so there's a, you there was a basically, a minority of those people that were happy? On Er the basis of your knowledge of t s e Yes, on the basis of my knowledge I would say, I would say so. Mhm. What about other people who has anyone on the basis of individuals that have come in here, do many individuals come in and actually have problems related to living in the flats? Directly or not. Or they, what kind of problems do, problems tend to come with from the flats? Erm well as you, well, Generally, I mean I would obviously I wouldn't want you to Ye yeah. individuals No. Oh no. Erm we er well as you know I mean the there's a very high rate of unemployment amongst tenants in the flats, Mhm. and that obviously affects the kinds of problems they have with regard to income, benefits, debt problems erm and with regards the kind of things they come in to see us about, things like single payments f for things. Erm That's the, that's the payments that you can get erm The grants that you can get on, on top of your basic, your basic Supplementary Benefit rate. at the moment, yeah. At the moment, yeah. Yeah. Mhm. So in t erm with your regard to you were saying about the fact that there's a lot of unemployment in the flats, Mhm. erm what impact do you think it has when you have a complex in which there is such a, is such a high level of unemployment in which, which so few people are working, I mean, the ar the area itself, do you think it has certain implications or not? I think it, I, I cer I, I certainly feel myself that it intensify Mhm. it intensifies an individ the individual problem. It decreases the possibility of, of getting out of that situation because you've got so many other people against, against whom you're competing for work. And also it, it intensifies the erm demand on housing stock, because none of those people are gonna be in a position to have very much choice when it come when it comes to finding somewhere to live. And g m quite a lot of them are going to be dependent on rented accommodation and in particular, well both council cou both, both council rented accommodation and private rented accommodation. Erm so you're going to get a lot of kind of landlord tenant type problems. Erm What about your own? You've got what, you know in terms of when you've got say that you have a very very high percentage of people, all in the same position living in one area. I mean what does that doing to, how does that, what impact do you think that, in terms of the c on the community, do you think that? On the basis of your experience with tenants here, and the fact that there's so many people in the same position, I mean does that act is that I don't er erm I don't think it, I mean we all know that, you know, er the unemployed are the, the least collectivized group of people in, as, as a group, that Mhm. the fact that, there might be a lot of unemployed people doesn't nece around doesn't necessarily mean that they feel that that they feel that they have a lot in common with each other, in terms of Yeah. Er it's not like if you had a lot of people in the flats who were all working up at for example, you'd have a lot more kind of community spirit going, and a lot , and a lot more common erm feeling, I think, between people. Mhm. And of course this whole area, I mean this whole area was, was built at a time when those factories were at their height, in the sort of late nineteenth century. And all Mhm. these, all these terraced houses, and a quite a lot of them were actually built by and . Erm and this whole area is, is, is, was built on that kind of industrial expansion at the end of the nineteenth century. A and I think, I mean that has, that itself has had an effect on the, on the, on the f on peoples' feelings for this area. I mean there, there are a lot of people, of people in who have lived here for a long time, and lived here ever since they were born. A lot of old people, we're talking about who have a very strong feeling of community within, within the area erm so I think that community spirit exists, but, but I think, but I think it exists despite the condition of unemployment that exists in the area. Mhm. And y am I right, am I right in saying that you'd say that e even though it may exist in itself, that it may even be, in fact be less in the flats than it is in the, in the wi in that in the wider area? Right in saying that you and that the, the fact that, the fact I, I wouldn't, I, the fact there's such unemployment, that the unemployment's even higher, that I mean it's pretty high in the area, I, I what I'm saying is I'm saying that unemployment as a, as a as a condition, And if it especially, D high levels of unemployment exist in the flats? and erm er erm erm doesn't necessarily bring people together, in fact, because it's a, it, it's a very isolating condition to be in. Because you're not, because you're inside a lot, you don't have to go out every day, you don't, you don't have anything very specific to do at different times during the day. Erm it doesn't, it does it doesn't bind people together. Mhm. Erm it's a very hard thing for people in that situation to organize a as a group er so what I'm saying is that the level of unemployment in itself doesn't bind people together, but given that is a long-established kind of traditional working class area, there is that tradition of, of, of community that exists anyway, Mhm. over and above the conditions that, that kind of pertain now Mhm. if you like. I feel that very strongly, I mean a lot of people have said, a lot of people in the flats have said, well I don't want to move out of the area, I don't like living in the flats, but I don't want to move out of the . So is that kind of identification with the, with the area itself Yeah. even, even if people may be quite alienated From the flats to from the flats themselves? That's right. Absolutely. Mhm. In te er in ter in terms of erm the flats themselves and the tenants you've met, have they, what kind o have they complained very much about the flats? Have you, have you had much contact in terms of that? Related to the problems in, in with Yeah. with regard to say repairs or the Yeah. complex itself? Erm people don't actually complain that much about the complex itself, surprisingly Mhm. enough. They'll complain about an individual flat, Yeah, what are their con and I mean things like disrepair, erm inadequate heating, erm noise from other tenants, erm But noise in what sense?what kind of noise are they talking about? Are they talking about Well, it would depend but I mean there are various of nuisance from noise in the flats, or anywhere where you've got a lot of people put together all living in a s fairly small area. But erm but they don't, they don't really complain about the complex as a whole. They'll complain about their own i individual bit of it. Does the er yeah. If they complain at all. Mhm. And I think it's the tenants' group which got together the, the, the sum of all those complaints,m erm which er and, and put them together to, to find what those common complaints were. Which was then highlighted in the c in the structural report which went before the council which was the basis of their decision to rehouse all the tenants. Mhm. And what do you feel, what are your feelings and with regard to the fact the flats are coming down? I just wonder what they're going to do with that space. Mhm. about that, what are your feelings with in terms with regard to the tenants themselves? I mean do you think it's a good thing that the flats are coming down, for the people who are actually living there? Or not? I think it, I think it's a good thing that the problems have been acknowledged, Yeah. and that, that the existing tenants are being rehoused. But I worry about whether that amount of housing stock is going to be replaced in the area, cos that is obviously very important. Mhm. So what you're s so what you're saying is that erm one of the consequences could be that even as people are being rehoused from , one of the risks is that other people who are on the h waiting list And also may suffer, may well suffer? and also that, that there might be, there might be fewer houses in the Mhm. so that it would have the affect of decreasing the population in the and decreasing the amount of housing that's available to people in the . Mhm. Cos I don't, I, I believe there's been, there've been no firm proposals for that site yet? Is that right? That's right, yeah. Yeah. Mm. You're telling me erm prior to the interview about erm compensation about work that the erm Law Centre are doing with regard to compensation. Yes. Erm, can you tell us a bit about that? Erm, yes. Erm That's compensation, is it for the tenants living in the flats ? Right, right. Could you explain that? I know that the tenants are getting s get so, will be getting so much money, Er when they leave. on moving yeah th That's right, well each tenant, each, each, each tenant on, when, when they move are given Yeah. a home loss and Yeah. disturbance payment erm to compensate them for the cost of remo cost of moving and Yeah. and, and kind of transporting themselves elsewhere, and setting up home elsewhere. Mhm. Erm now one of the things that the tenants' action group asked us about initially when they asked us to get in involved in the, in the advice sessions in the flats, was whether or not the tenants would be able to claim additional compensation, over and above what was already being offered. We're still waiting for a green form extension to grant t t to be granted Yeah. to the tenants erm for an independent environmental health officer to come along and do an independent environmental report on the flats. Erm a green form is a, a it's,gr green, green form money is money which is given by the Law Society erm depending on how much work, how much time is spent on each case Mm. and in this case, as we we're working for a group of tenants, we can ask for an extension on one form to cover so Mm. many tenants, Yeah. and, and kind of use a test case for that. Erm, if we get the extension, and if we can get the report done, we can then use that report with a view to either one, taking an action for compensation by a test case for breach of the landlord's repairing obligations Mhm. and or two,with a view to proposing to r reduce the rateable value of the flats. Erm So would th would that s I mean, if that in terms of the rateable value, would that mean the rents would fall? No, it would mean the rates would fall. The rates would fall . Yes, so th so therefore as a consequence, the, the, the rent that people are paying each week would Yeah, presumably, yeah. Yeah. Mhm. It would have a, it would have a knock-on effect. Two was that element, sorry, and the, in terms of the so that the rates would fall, and what's the other, the sorry,t that's, is that related to them erm? Well, I mean we don't think, we, it's, I think it's unlikely that this is going to, to have any effect until possibly all the f all the tenants are moved out anyway. Yeah. In which case it won't have any effect on the on the rent. So what, what, what could it am I right in saying that it's related to the, the work that you're doing is related to the particular circumstances the particular problems that people living in flats have had? Yes. Over and above the compensation which people would, would get anyway,i in this situation? That's right, By saying that. that's right. Yeah. And the hope is to actually be able to get some recognition of that, That's right. and hence erm I i compensation to c some kind of right. compensation to cover that. Basically er the broad overall description would be to compensate for the conditions that the tenants had been living in prior to the move. And Mhm. I think that's, that's, that's, that's covered by my first point. Erm the possible action for compensation for breach of landlord's repairing obligations. Mhm. And we'd be talking about the kinds of things which were brought out in the structural report I think there. Mhm, that's, that's the report that erm, yeah. You know, to do with con the construction of the flats. Mhm. So how l in terms of this,how long for this? How long could this go on for? It go on for,quite a while. It could go on for years possibly. It might go on f it, it, it could take two or three years. Mhm. And how many of you working on that? Right, carrying on erm for the subject of erm compensation over and above erm that which is normally given to people who move from one place to another when, when they're, they're f h h have to be, Compulsorily rehoused. Yeah. Erm you've, you've said kind o you said erm the k you've ba told me the kind of case that, that one would try and present related to the fa the, you know, the erm the structure, the lack of repair of the flats. Erm so how many of you are actually involved you know, in the in erm the Law Centre? Is there a few of you who are actually involved in that kind of work? Well this is been Yeah. th this is been, in, this particular aspect of the work is, is, is being done by John who's a solicitor. Yeah. Mhm. Yeah. And erm what kind of, what kind of support are you getting er from ? What kind of response are you getting from tenants towards this work that you're doing? Were they are they aware of it? To be, to be, to be honest, to be honest, I, I don't know what the, what, what, what's actually happening on a day-to-day basis with this. Yeah. Erm, it's a very long term thing, and John's been working through the tenants' action group on it so I personally don't know what, what the kind of take up is on that, er Mhm. and wh and what the response of the tenants has been. So you'd have to ask him, So ba but what you are, but what you are telling, what you have told me is that erm there is, there is erm work being done to try and get people compensation in addition to what they would normally get I, I'm, I'm say I'm as result of saying that there's a been an application for more money, Yeah. to enable us to have a stru have another report done which would then be used as part of the evidence in conjunction with a test case, to Where would the case actually s where would it go to, I mean say when you've got all the evidence? What do you do with it then? Th well then we'd have to we'd have to present it. To? To the council. Yeah. And so it would be a case of actually negotiating with the council hopefully? Well, it'd be, it mi it might have to, it mi it might have to go, go Go through the courts. Yeah. But er I, you know, I don't really know what, where John's got to on that. So I can't really say. Mhm. Erm, I can only talk very generally about that. Mhm. Er and on the basis of your knowledge I mean, in terms of the flats, when you've s you've been there f er and also you've erm worked with some of the tenants that have been down here, I mean how what do you think er in terms of the living conditions, I mean how er in the flats, I mean how do they, how do you see them? It's the, it's the typical concrete jungle. It's erm anonymous, and treeless and empty. Erm once you go ins into the, into the complex the, the piazzas, the, the kind of squares, which, which o occupy the space between each erm block of, of flats are usually fairly empty. Erm there have been attempts to brighten them up at various times. There's a tenants hall which is very brightly painted. And there's a children's playground. Erm but on the,o on the whole these are areas which belong to no one. They erm there's, there's less, there's less a feeling of community in there than there would be on the average street. Erm and in a sense that might be because the, the flats, the area within the flat isn't a thoroughfare. It's, it's like a dead end. You only go into the flats if you're visiting someone or if you live there, so there's no, there's none of that hustle and bustle that you get on a, on a regular street. Erm so I think possibly people don't really feel responsible for that, for those, that space within the flats which isn't actually right outside their front door. Mhm. Do you think And that's, yeah and And it does have, it has a very bleak aspect to it, to me. Even on the brightest day it's erm it's, it, it's very grey and very very bleak. Mhm. So what do you think, you know when, when, when people, if people don't feel that the area outside their door is a an area s you know that's part of their area, it's an area that they've got responsibility, what consequences does, do you think that has? If they're i I think it gives it an air of abandonment. Erm it isn't necessarily dirtier than the average street, it doesn't necessarily have more dog shit or more paper strewn around it but neither does it have a, any sense of activity within it. I th I think I think that's the key, I think e I think there, there, there's, there's n there's no activity there's no communal activity. And you get the feeling that people kind of beat a, a way through to their particular flat and out again, without looking either to left or right really. And that's a very extreme view and it's c but er it's the impression that I've got of the flats. It's a very personal impression. Mhm. Erm Do you, have you had much contact erm with, with anyone who, with erm any parents at the flats that ha have been bringing up kids there? And any of their experiences? Or not? Erm well I kn I've known, I've, I've, I know tenants in the flats who have got children, Yeah. And Yeah. how do they how do they feel? You know about having t how do they feel in terms of bringing up kids in the flats? I mean do they have, do they have any views or? Well as I say, I had, I don't, I haven't really had any involvement really with talking to people about their experience of living in the flats until people knew that they were going to be moved out eventually. Yeah. And that does tend to colour people's what people say, and what people think about it. Erm I don't know if I said this already, in this interview, but there does seem at the moment to be a general air of, of people waiting to move. Yeah, I think I have said that haven't I? Mhm. Yeah. Which kind of suspends their immediate problems. They, they kind of suspend their immediate problems as they wait to, to move out. To some extent. I think the last point we've, we were, we were er mentioning about erm bringing up erm young people in the flats. Erm in terms of bringing up young people in the flats, how do you s how do you see the, do you think it's a good area, or a, or a, or, or erm a bad area to bring up kids? Cos quite a g quite a few young people have actually been brought up in the flats, haven't they? I mean Yeah. there's quite a lot have moved out now, but erm still are some there I think. And how do you see it as being an area to bring up kids? In the flats themselves? Yeah, in the flats themselves, living in the flats, I mean s have to look at the actual local facilities as well, I mean they're, I mean I suppose that's a factor as well to take into account? Yeah. The flats themselves are, are quite big I think, and Yeah. quite big enough for, for fa for a small family. Small depending on how many bedrooms there are. Erm but I think the problems to do with the flats are the, the kind of overall problems of access to the flats and er the, the, the, the actual structural condition of conditions of the flats. The dampness, condensation which is very bad for young babies for example, elderly people, erm and the condition of the, of the, of the space between the flats erm which So you're talking about wh wh the condition of the space between the flats aren't you? I'm talking about, I'm talking about the s the, the open spaces between the flats, Yeah. and the problem of access to the flats, and sometimes the necessity to walk quite a long way before you can get out onto the street, which would be a problem for young mothers with, with, with small children, as equally it would be a problem for elderly people or disabled people. Mhm. Er and that is, that is one of the problems within the flats, that having got, once got into the complex you might have quite a long way to go before you actually find where you're going. Equally erm, and this is a kind of aside, there's the problem for the newcomer of not knowing how the flats Where, you know where each flat, where each block is, so you get in there and you and you're trying to find , for example, or wherever, and you haven't got a clue,sort of where to start Erm it's a bit like, it's a Is that yeah. bit like a maze in that sense. Is that the way you found it when you first started erm Wh when we first started working there, we, we went right round all the flats, and we put, put leaflets in every door, so we, we got That was with regard to er That was with regard to the advice sessions, the Yeah. weekly advice sessions. So we actually saw it all, erm it's actually quite a lot bigger than it looks. There's a lot more flats there than you would even think of. It's amazing. Lots, it's quite a small area, but they're really quite, quite neatly packed in. Mm. Mhm. And you, you touched on erm the problems that erm so that living in the flats can have for somebody who's disabled, or elderly. Do you feel that, do you feel that those are raised or not? Do you feel that the flats are not particularly suitable for, for those groups? Do you think fo do you think that who was disabled Would have difficulty pro possibly in actually getting to their flat. Mhm. Erm the actual geogo the geography of the flats isn't, isn't conducive to easy access within, within the complex. You said also that yo that there could be problems with young mothers? For the same reason. Yeah, for the same reason. And also for the er elderly as well. Yeah. And also having got into the f into the complex, I think maybe having said that the spaces, you know the, the space between the blocks is erm isn't cared for erm In terms of it not being cared for, yeah, I mean who do you I don't mean not ca Yeah. not, I don't mean not clean or not, not tidy, Yeah. I mean having no s no it has no,th there is no collective responsibility for it. It, it, it doesn't make you feel, it possibly wouldn't make people feel very happy about having to walk a long, a long way within the complex, once having got into it. You might want to be able to sort of get to their flat very quickly. Mhm. T and one final question. Erm we touched on quite a few of the, quite a few of the erm bad points about living in the flats. Would you sa you know on the basis of erm your contact with, with tenants erm in terms of living in flats, are, are there any good points that people have made about living there t I mean Yeah, yeah. Well, yeah. I mean Yeah. it's ver a very central, I mean Yeah. they're in a very good position. Very prime, prime position for shops, and Yeah. for local and for sort of local amenities, for the forest, it's very close to the forest. It's on a main shopping route into the city centre. Erm it's Hello ? Right erm before we broke off erm this last question I'm going to ask you, you were s you were saying about erm in terms of erm some of the good points of h the, you were talking about it being pretty central erm for buses erm being near the forest erm what about erm in terms of local shops? I mean what, what've you found? Do people, do people t tend to use those? Oh yes, very much. I mean a lot of people who live on the don't go into town at all. Don't know where it is . Erm and they use local shops almost exclusively. So is a i i it, it is a very thriving area, it is a very thriving shopping centre for the people who live in the immediate area. Mhm. What about the facilities for local people? I mean do, do people find, tend to see those as being a plus or not?you know, How do you mean? facilities other than shops, er erm What you mean like the boys' club? Yeah, er Erm yes er there's, there's a community centre on . Yeah. Now what's Yeah. that? Yeah, what That belongs to the church, St Paul's Church. Yeah. Erm there's What kind of contact, do they have much contact with the people in the flats?, you not sure if you're not Y I don't know, you'd have to ask them. sure on that No, I'm not sure on that. There's what's the boys' club, there's a library. There's erm a community arts centre, which is used by both individuals and groups within the area. Erm, and there's the youth and community centre which is on the corner of and . So there is quite a, a concentration of activity within the area. Whether or not that is actually used by the people who live in the flats, I don't know, to be honest. That would have to, that would have to come out of any kind of interview with workers in those other groups really. Right, thanks very much, thank you. In the past decade Amazonia has experienced one of the biggest gold rushes it's ever seen. Fortune seekers, up to a million of them, have inflicted terrible damage upon the environment, on public health and law and order. Now another threat demonstrates just how frightening is the real price of gold. What is gold? An empty bubble. Bewitching, transient shining trouble. This is Cripo Rison a frontier town that serves numerous gold workings or Garrimpos The itinerant gold diggers that flock here are called Garrimperos When they visit town,Garrimperos come to sell their gold, in the numerous gold dealers' shops that line the single street. With the proceeds of the gold they buy provisions, heading toward numerous pharmacies for drugs to combat diseases, notably malaria, that afflict them all. And they come to buy mining equipment, pumps and pies and engines to extract gold bearing gravel form the rivers and streams. Also on the shopping list are sex, booze and gambling. So bars and brothels are plentiful. Even those that live in Cripo Rison find little to commend the place. Cripo Rison is a filthy, violent and inaccessible place on the banks of a polluted river. It has no hospital, no doctor, and save for the police, no government presence of any kind. It's a place you'd be happy to leave, unless you're a Garrimpero who must head back to work. Some of the human wreckage from the Garrimpos washes up at the hospital at Itti Tuba Hundreds line up daily for malaria tests. Children are often born with the disease. It's no coincidence that malaria took hold as the gold rush intensified. Conditions in the Garrimpos made it inevitable. Here blood tests will confirm the type of the infection and determine the treatment. Dr is the local malaria specialist. On his hospital rounds he routinely treats Garrimperos in the terminal stages of the disease. This patient has been infected more than twenty times. Nearby is a man who paid the price of gold with a bullet in the back, A victim of Garrimpero gun law. As well as victims of violence, many suffer from venereal diseases. It's hard to believe but this river, the Cristolino is part of the same Tappajoss river system where Garrimperos have caused such devastation. Cristolino by name, the river is still crystalline by nature. Why? It's protected by nature reserves on both banks. This is Amazonia as it used to be, before the coming of the settlers and the seekers after gold. Appearances are deceptive. Even the Cristolino river is polluted, and by something far more dangerous than mud. The fish that swim here carry in their flesh a poison that can make you very ill. And if consume enough of it, will kill you. That poison is mercury. Messenger of the gods, quicksilver, stuff that fascinates the child in all of us. And yet, with the exception of lead, this poisons more people every year than any other heavy metal. And it's now found in disturbingly high quantities, not only in the fish, but in the air and the soil and the water throughout the Tappajoss river system. And where does it come from? From the Garrimpos Just a few miles down stream, the silvery waters of the Cristolino flow into the Tellisperos river, and vanish, stained by it's burden of silt. Once this murky torrent was crystalline too. But with the coming of the Garrimpos it's grown steadily filthier and more toxic, contaminated by things visible and invisible. Oil and detergent, as well as mud and mercury. And it's the same story in many other rivers throughout the Amazon basin. A vast area that drains one third of South America and covers half the land surface of Brazil. Up to twenty five percent of all water that drains off the Earth, is carried by the Amazon. And now, sadly, much of that global resource is contaminated by mercury. Worse affected by the gold rush than most rivers is the Tappajoss and it's tributaries. More gold has been produce here in this present gold rush than in any other part of Brazil. It's Garrimpos like this that are doing the damage. Polluting the river with mud and mercury. This is one among thousands of similar rafts, or balsas, that employ divers. Working on the river bed with a hose attached to a powerful pump, the diver hoovers up gold- bearing alluvium. This is pumped onto the raft to be processed. The alluvium passes down a sluice where particles of gold, because they're heavier, are retained behind wooden ripples, and up on the carpet that lines the sluice. When the time comes to recover the gold, the ripples are removed and the carpet is shaken. It's at this stage that mercury comes into the picture. It's unique property is to bind with gold, however small the particles, to form an amalgam that's easy to collect. Mercury will be mixed with the sludge to separate the gold. Inevitably, some of it escapes into the river. As a trip down this tributary shows, this is a huge industry. It employs at least a quarter of a million people, in operations large and small. Few will ever get rich, but between them they've produced, in recent years, nearly five hundred tonnes of gold in the Tappajoss region alone. And for every tonne of gold at least twice as much mercury has thought to have been lost into the environment. Everyone uses mercury and some use it in much larger quantities than others. Mercury that is not amalgamated with gold, slides easily from them pan, while mercury mixed with gold leaves more reluctantly. After excess mercury has been run off, the residue is strained through a fine cloth. This expels any further free mercury. What's left is the gold that the days work has yielded with an equal mass of mercury. Finally the mercury is burned off using a butane torch. This job could be done simply and safely using a retort to condense the mercury. But that never happens. As the temperature rises the mercury is driven off as a toxic white gas. has absorbs dangerous amounts of it. Tests show he's carrying ten times the acceptable level of mercury. But then he's been burning gold every few days for ten years. In gold shops they also burn off mercury on a huge scale. The law says dealers should recover ninety six percent floats away to be breathed by all and sundry. No one seems to worry. They've come to sell gold and it's the money they're after. Money that will be used in part to buy more mercury, that's supposed to be a controlled substance. According to Brazilian law the responsibility for controlling the sale and the use of mercury lies with the national institute for the environment,IBAMA and in theory these controls are very strict, all importers and dealers are supposed to be registered, and the use of mercury in any process and in whatever quantity, how ever small, requires an official permit. What's more the law specifically forbids the use of mercury in Garrimpos unless they're licensed. Here in Cripo Rison you can buy as much mercury as you like and no questions are asked. I've just bought this little flask, I have no permit, and nobody asked for one. It says here the mercury's for dental purposes, but I don't think there's much doubt what it's actually for. This was once a gold shop. Mercury vapour form gold burning below, wafted into the flat above, and this is what happened to it's occupant. The mercury caused Manuel sever neurological damage. By the time the cause was discovered, and his condition was diagnosed, it was too late. The received no compensation, and all the expensive medical treatment they've had to pay for themselves. Is your father now completely dependent on you to nurse him and look after him? This woman works at a Garrimpo and has also been exposed to mercury vapour. She's worried that she may be in the early stages of mercury poisoning. She's brought her worries to Dr , who's seeing more and more patients with similar symptoms. The destruction of Amazonian forest is all too familiar a story. But it's connection with the gold rush should not be overlooked. It's the search for gold that opens up virgin land with roads and airstrips, and then other settlers follow. This is the result, and it seems there's another connection. Here around Alto Foresta in recent years, hundreds of thousands of acres of virgin forest have been burned and continue to be burned to provide pasture for cattle. On some days the smoke is so thick here that it obscures the sun. To find out what effect all this burning may be having on the upper atmosphere, particularly upon global warming, the Brazilian space institute, in collaboration with NASA from the United States, has been carrying out a research programme. One possibility that's emerged from that research, is that mercury vapour from gold burning may be combining with the ash and the other products of combustion the forest, to produce an even more toxic ingredient in a lethal brew. On a satellite photograph of an area near Alto Foresta ranching and gold mining show up as pink scars on the green of the forest. The large clearing is one hundred and fifty square miles. Sandra is one of a team of scientists trying to find out how mercury levels in the air are influenced by weather and other factors. The team will investigate the human consequences of the mercury pollution. This work is of special importance for pregnant women who risk fetal damage from mercury. Results so far signal danger ahead. Here mercury levels are one thousand times greater than one would expect in such a remote area. Although the inhalation of mercury vapour and dust is an obvious hazard, there is another danger that's potentially more long lasting and insidious. Much of the mercury that escapes in to the soil and the air and in to the water, finishes up here in the rivers, and there it reacts with naturally occurring compounds to form a compound called methyl mercury which is far more dangerous to man than is mercury itself. This methyl mercury is absorbed by small organisms in the water which are eaten by fish which are eaten by larger fish, and all the time the poison is being concentrated as it moves up the food chain. In some of the larger and older predator fish concentrations of methyl mercury can be very high need, and of course these are precisely the fish that are most sort after by the fishermen and by their customers. Now if this contaminated fish is eaten in large enough quantities it can cause symptoms of Minimata disease. The disease is named after a terrible industrial accident that occurred at this chemical factory at Minimata in southern Japan. Methyl mercury was accidentally discharged into the sea and as a result the nearby fishing communities suffered terrible consequences. This child's name is Tomo . Tomo means wisdom. Her mother showed no signs of mercury poisoning at all. Yet this is how Tomo was born. The result of eating contaminated fish. Many children were born with Minimata disease but more than one hundred adults died while thousands were severely disabled. Although the situation in Amazonia is different there are worrying similarities. Here too fish and shellfish are eaten in large quantities. Here too fish in certain areas are found to contain high concentrations of mercury. In Minimata mercury poisoning was diagnosed first in cats. Here mercury levels in pigs near Garrimpos are disturbingly high. Despite all these danger signals evidence of mercury contamination of people is very limited. Work has been done on contamination of fish and water and air, but little has been done to study it's effect on the human population. In the Amazon research is hampered by the sheer size of the region and by the reluctance of scientists to work here. But one individual researcher has not been deterred. From his base in Santarem Dr Fernando travels to a number of riverside communities. Today it's the turn of Brazilia Laygal a large village on the banks of the Tappajoss river. Dr is a cardiologist who in the course of his work encountered cases of mercury poisoning. Some came from fishing villages, so he began a clinical study concentrating on fishermen and their families. These tests are designed to detect early signs of neurological damage. The fisherman has high levels of mercury because he catches and eats large fish that lie in undisturbed pools and lagoons where methyl mercury settles, but so far he has no conclusive symptoms. In this tranquil and untroubled spot, they've heard the warnings of Dr about mercury but still feel powerless to combat such a mysterious threat. If if it seemed advisable not to eat the fish, would that be a big problem for the ? Dr comes bearing small gifts for the children. In return for his balloons, he will ask the children for a lock of hair. Methyl mercury shows up in hair, and by taking samples at regular intervals he can keep track of it's level and how they relate to clinical symptoms when and if they appear. Hair samples collected by Dr are sent to the institute of biophysics at the Federal University at Rio de Janeiro. Here they are freeze dried, treated with chemicals and then analyzed. The hair frequently shows methyl mercury contamination well above safe limits. These findings were confirmed by a joint British-Brazilian scientific team. They ran blood tests on fisherman and came up with equally alarming results. Bad news for the eight hundred thousand people living in the Tappajoss river region. In some areas we have measured a contamination which is much bigger than in the Minimata incident in the Japan. Er the only reason for the fact that we we didn't have a tragedy is that the population in the in those areas is very sparse. But it's true, we recognize the problem and we are serious trying to avoid it. This protest song suggests that some at least are aware of the mercury menace and the plight of the rivers and are calling for action. The price of gold. This piece of street theatre is performed in Sanatrem by members of the Amazon defence group, warning of the dangers of mercury poison through eating contaminated fish. The aim of the drama is to do what government is failing to do. Tell the people of the Tappajoss the truth about gold. That it's ruining their river and that mercury could wreck their lives. The play is a curiously light hearted account of a fisherman who eats contaminated fish and dies. At Rio's federal university, scientists says that even if the use of mercury ceased, the danger remain. It would persist for many generations. We've done research in other places and there's mercury from a hundred a hundred and fifty years back. But st it sticks around. So to call this a chemical time bomb is not unduly alarmist? No it's not. It's a time bomb that's been ticking for centuries and the fuse has always been gold. This is Auro Preto which means black gold. Built three hundred years ago on the profits of the first gold rush. But those who dug the gold never lived in these fine houses for they were African slaves. They payed for all this with their sweat and their lives, just like the Garrimperos today. The Portuguese came to Brazil to win souls for Christ and to win gold for the king. In both they succeeded, but at a terrible human cost. The ancestors of those who now process with marching bands, once crouched in rows panning the streams under the eye of armed guards. Much of the gold dug by the slaves went back to Portugal. Enough remained to build magnificent baroque churches. In this one church hundreds of kilos of gold were used to glorify God. But perhaps more fittingly it might commemorate the slaves that died to win it form the Earth. This church,Santa Ephygenia was where the African slaves came to worship, to pray to the saint to protect them from the dreadful accidents they faced in the mines. As with the Garrimperos today, so great were the physical dangers of extracting gold, that the risk posed by mercury poisoning must have seemed derisory. Oh yes. They used mercury in those days too. And evidence is coming to light that present generations may still be suffering the consequences. In the old gold mining regions of Min Sherice and Gojas scientists are finding an unusually high incidence of mental retardation, and other congenital conditions, and the finger of suspicion is pointed at methyl mercury that's accumulated in the soil and in the ground water. If it can happen in the old gold mining regions, it can happen in the Amazon too. It's another piece of evidence suggesting a long term buildup towards a serious mercury crisis. For a mercury crisis is not an immediate or indeed a long term worry. In Amazonia he's what is called in the Garrimpo world, a donno The owner of the gold digging area and it's machinery. But here on the Rato river, is more than a Donno he's a king, or at least he acts like one. Not just king but an absolute monarch. Mr started in a small way, but now two hundred and fifty Garrimperos work under him. In the local government he's the secretary responsible for mining, and for the environment. As surveys his operations, is it with the eye of the secretary for mining? Or the secretary for the environment? One wonders. He also uses mercury in large quantities, and as secretary for the environment, one might have expected him to seek less damaging alternatives. We haven't been trying hard to persuade the Garrimperos to adopt different technologies, more modern technologies that would avoid the contamination of the mercury, but as I said I believe the only way of reaching this goal is if we can organize the Garrimperos to have er a kind of er institutionalized way of exploiting gold, not the sort of gold rush i that is being on and on On and off in Brazil for two centuries right now. This cheap and simple piece of technology could transform the mercury vapour problem. This is the part of the retort, we have water in here. The mercury gold amalgam is burned in a closed retort rather than in the open air. How efficient is this, Roberto? Ah well it'll recover about ninety five percent of the mercury. Ah th the problems that the mercury causes are not erm easily seen Immediately seen. So you have to show them that is very important, not because of the mercury recovery but because of their health. Yeah. The retort is not only safer, it saves money. Recovering the mercury for reuse. Why is something so obviously superior not being used? We have to work with the garrimperos we have to try and convince 'em. As er as you can imagine, it's a very difficult task, nobody wants to go up in the region, it has malaria, it's dangerous, it's it Transportation is difficult. But we have to manage to find out how these people think, how we can convince them Even to protect themselves, one of the things we'd like to show is look, using this mercury, you're killing yourself. But this takes a long time and a lot of convincing. Could , local secretary for the environment, be convinced/ If the right equipment was readily available, would he encourage it's use throughout his kingdom. Because if he wanted it done, it would be done. The trouble is the culture of the Garrimpero is a macho culture, of gambling and drinking and whoring, and hazardous work, where mercury is the very least of his concerns. He's more likely to die in a bar brawl. And why should the Garrimpero heed the advice of the authorities when the authorities ignore him. It is at the bottom a social problem. It is the failure of Brazilian society to provide those people with jobs, with a decent living, which er has led the Garrimperos to this activity. And the problem is, although they are er very negative for the environment, they destroy rivers, they effect the navigation, they are quite popular with the population, with the peasants, with the indians, because they bring money, they bring activities, they bring weapons, they bring all sorts of things that break the isolation of those populations that live along the rivers or er in the middle of the forest. Nothing has broken the isolation more than the light aircraft. It's these little planes that make this gold rush possible. And it's the people who own them and fly them, and those who supply the Garrimpos with food and fuel and medicines who make the real money. They've grown fat on gold, not the Garrimperos They're a strong political lobby and would never allow business to close down over the little matter of mercury. But they can't ignore them all the time. Elsewhere in Amazonia, a thousand miles from the Tappajoss federal police recently responded to the murder, by Garrimperos of seventeen Yanamami Indians. In a fierce crackdown they destroyed gold dredges operating within forest reserves. But the suspicion is that this was little more than a public relations exercise. Garrimperos put out of business here, are likely to reappear elsewhere in the vastness of Amazonia. Indeed in the Tappajoss there has been a sudden increase in the number of big dredgers. Although the number of Garrimperos has declined, the scale of their operation has increased. And as the large machines move in the destruction grows. So does the consumption of mercury. And those that operate the dredgers are quite indifferent. He and his kind are unlikely to be deterred by exultation. More dredgers are under construction and this activity will continue and intensify. It's one of number of worrying developments. Garrimperos are now beginning to sink shafts to mine primary gold. These youngsters work seventy metres below ground in appalling conditions. One of their team was killed by explosives the week before our visit. Deep mining also produces environmental damage. Developments like this mean that even if alluvial gold gives out or becomes less profitable, the uncontrolled search for wealth will continue and accelerate. And although the technology is different, it still involves the use of mercury. Large amounts of mercury are mixed with the crushed gold bearing rock, and are agitated in a concrete mixture. Yet another source of pollution adding to the risk. One remedy that's being proposed calls for drastic action now. A distinguished economist er suggested to me, the only way to deal with this Garrimpo problem is to close them down. Now is that a politically possible solution do you think? No it's not realistic because you know that there are thousands of people involved with the in the Garrimpos and er there is no way you could er shut them down without offering them an alternative. In a country like ours where half of the territory er is still in the frontier situation, er there is an enormous difficulty in enforcing some laws. It's not the same situation as you are used to in Europe. While the politicians seem impotent and indecisive, riverside communities continue to live under the shadow of the mercury threat. Some would like to forget it but it won't go away. In the final stages of the journey from river mud to glittering metal, gold is treated to remove the last stages of Garrimpo mercury, then it becomes pure, but not innocent. In Brazil gold is guilty of crimes against the environment and against humanity. And the criminal record goes back for centuries. Whether the new charge of conspiracy to poison the people will be proved, is still unclear, but the evidence cannot be ignored, and unless decisive steps are taken it could be too late. need to see where you've got to and Well the software came off the tape without any any problems wha whatsoever. Good. And I copied it over It all compiled first time. E even the Pascal? Even the Pascal. That's interesting cos I mean it is a sort of a variant Luckily we have the er compiler for that. We have that particular compiler, that was Yeah. good then. Yeah. I I thought you might in fact but I mean when it was first taken we first looked at the tape, people in there weren't sure so Oh that's good news oh that helps a lot because they've tried The original Moneytalk was developed on VAX V M S Right. so that's why you see a lot of talk about VAX V M S around mailboxes and funny things like that which are Yeah. which are sort of er e Well a mailbox is a very crude inter process communication technique used on VAXes. But I mean, I don't think you need to worry about that cos I think got round that when they when they converted up to. Should be okay. Yeah so that all compiled up so what some bits don't work? Erm there we there was a problem with the erm lexicon lexicon Right. That just core dumped. But I was able to transfer it onto a separate system and compile that and produce the lexicon there. So why did that core dump on on I have no idea. I look looked through it, couldn't actually see anything obviously wrong with it. I compiled it onto another system which has far better de debugging tools and Yeah? It didn't core dump. But that that that sudden? Well Hewlett Hewlett Packard. Oh you did one on the H P. Which one was the one that worked? The one on the H P. The H P worked better. Yeah. Right. But it doesn't wor do it doesn't So it works on the H P but not on the Sun is that right? Yeah. So I created the lexicon Right okay. on the H the H P and copied that back Yeah sure. and the first stage which is the for formatting stage Mhm. works. Right. As far as I can tell, the other stages also seem to work, Right. but there is a problem with the the second stage which decomposes the Right formatted input. Right. Er into parts of parts of speech. Mhm. If I tried to give it more than one one word at a time it falls over and core dumps. Right. With one word it's unable to determine what what part of speech it is. This is not unreasonable. Yeah. Yeah. And I've been been through er th the debugging tools. Pascal on on the main system. Yeah. And slowly up uphill struggle to actually Have you managed to locate it at al Not been able to locate where it actually Erm I've been able to trace back it's probably in a procedure called fetch page. That seemed to be causing Well is that fetching I mean is that a is that the routine that's picking information back from the lexicon or something ? Yeah. Right. I was wondering I mean there may possibly be differences between I mean there was the format that speech generate of the H P and the format that the Sun would use. Mm. Er now I would think that the lexicon itself is just a w a whacking great look up table yes? Yeah. Right. Er I would check things like, signed and unsigned bytes. That's the that is the first problem you might find. Have you checked that at all? So you might find that if you do a thing on the H P you may find that what is being what's happening is that it it it's creating the wrong size addressings in the look up table because either it's using you know, er signed and it's su assuming unsigned byte or something. So you've got the data ranges incorrect, that sort of thing . Right. Er you want to check that specification. That's quite likely where it's going to be going wrong. Right. That I I've seen that before between erm VAX systems and Silicon Graphics systems. I also I mean Sun to Silicon Graphics, sometimes you need to make s see what the compiler option is in fact. You may find the default compiler option for the H P is different to the default compiler option to handle signed and unsigned integers or signed and unsigned bytes, may be different. It may well be the case. Er now these are you know is the lexicon a Pascal module or a C module? It's a C module. C right, so I would I I would almost would think Right. it's a sign problem in that it's not doing the look up properly. These things are hideous to sort out I know. Erm w I mean where they don't work when somebody offers code and they don't work, there's not a lot you can do other than sort of make some informed guesses as to what might be going wrong. Because at the end of the day I mean they're building up a a set of rules. practically you've got like a rule compiler. I mean the the later stages of the system had things like rule compilers and quite complex things which allowed you a more dynamic interaction with the system so you could actually build rules in and then some rules then erm allowed you to shall we say,partition out certain parts of speech. You found sometimes that other rules weren't required because that rule new rule that you'd finally developed encompassed other classes of events. You know so so the idea was having a rule compiler system which so you could actively refine it. You know the rules got more complex but in but in terms of actual processing power, the amount of look up required went down. One of the reasons for big look up tables is that the prototype system . Eventually the whole lot would be blown into ROMS. In a box. . Well in fact it was . And still can ma buy cards for a P C . But I'm not sure whether that would be in of interest at all to Ian anyway. That might might Yes you can actually buy a card for a P C. And all you do is you feed it erm text and it'll speak it. Yeah. Albeit in an American voice. Is erm Ian definitely wants wants new suns. Yes I know. being targeted at students . Yeah I mean the would be very nice if you could get it to go cos it is it is quite acceptable speech. Albeit American. American English. Which is different of course. So you don't get dog, you get dog. .D A W G. . Er but I think people can live with that understand sort of Americanisms now. Erm that that's I think the main thing you want to look at there. Right. Er what about the synthesis stage, do you know whether that works or not? Does it generate waveforms? It's been a bit Well it's it's been been a bit difficult to test because with the sort of ready the read-me files . Very very minimal so I haven't noticed Were there any erm already er sort of the intermediate files? Things like er erm s synthesizer files. Nothing. parameter file. Er just wondering whether There is apparen apparently book books details of of course it's out at the moment. Mm. I could search round for papers on it. There's not there's not a lot on because n Well I mean,w the reason why there's not a huge amount published is because er Digital bought the rights to DECTalk. Right. For something like six million dollars. And so at that point, nothing very much was published. No not in the public domain anyway. I mean there are plenty of internal reports at M I T and at DEC but you certainly can't get them . I have seen a paper been involved with M I T themselves. Er do you know what the er what a the input file would look like to the synthesizer phase? It gives a very sketchy idea in the read-me files however it also Do you know how many control parameters there are for instance? Is it the twenty one or is it the sixty or forty eight Without looking through the source file I wouldn't be able to tell. Because erm I do have a variation er a version of the that particular synthesizer which is a class seventy nine synthesizer. And I may well have some input files which you could u test with. You need to find out though what version that that is. It may well be well the one that was out in the public in the public domain. One that was published in the Journal the American Society for Acoustical Research. J A S A, J A S A. J S? J A S A. Journal of the American Acoustical Society. Journal of the American Society for Acoustics, something like that anyway. That that that the original class seventy nine synthesizer was published, the source code . And it was originally in FORTRAN source so I don't know whether is it still in FORTRAN source? Erm no it's Pascal now. Is it Pascal source now. Yeah n what you need to do is if you can look up the what the input parameters h how many input parameters there are, and if there are if if it's basically a batch of twenty one parameters, er I can probably I've probably got the source code for them. Er I mean the input files. It depends whether they're ASCII input or whether they're binary input format. I would put money on them being what are called K P R Yeah. Er K P R format which is parameter file. Er P R for parameter. .parameter file and that is actually effectively a a sixteen bit integer encoded file. And in fact I can probably get you some of those as well. Right. Okay. Er we moved over to using ASCII so that we could actually hand edit them and and look at them. But this is about four or five years ago so I mean it's n we've moved on a lot since then. But certainly we can probably find some stuff for er to help test. But did you get er but does the pipeline build for instance? I mean there's a program that builds the pipeline. Yeah. And that all builds? Right well that's wonderful, I mean that's really good news really, Mm. Mm. You see cos a again it was probably in the early days, running on P D P Elevens. Right. Right so you've got to think P D P Eleven because it's fairly old stuff now. And I mean Unix in those d in the early days was P D P Eleven based. And then it moved over to sort of VAXes as well. Er but I think could be could be the backspace . Cos it's using B er B S D isn't it or J S D stuff so. Could be could well could have been backspace but still there'd still be Eleven stuff around I would have thought. Er you'd probably find that in the P D P Eleven around the place. .. And if it is then they're probably sixteen bit integer encoded files for the synthesizer phase. The other thing is that the output frequency is likely to be eight kilohertz or ten kilohertz. Er you need to think about that. But again, depending on your hardware you may the output phase hardware, you might need to alter some things in the synthesizer to change it to the from eight to ten to twelve to sixteen bit data. Again I I modified the seventy nine and rewritten the seventy nine I've had also the the later version of the synthesizer to handle different bit-width so it's not a problem. And I know how to do that. There's not a lot about to change. You know you tend to find there are a couple of fiddle factors around actually . And magic numbers like multiplying the width of the byte by sixteen point O two five or something . . You m is it really well is it very well commented at all? It's fairly well commented. Yeah cos I I think you'll find there are various comments like you know, let's say you know, move the the data into the highest signi er the most significant bits of the word and this sort of stuff. You know where they and they just multiplying by number rather than doing bit shifts . So So I mean you'll you'll find I mean, it's not that bad. Right I well if you can't get the lexicon going it's got a problem of course. . If it was on a P D P Eleven then the addressing would only be a matter of si sixteen bit as well. In the tables. So again you might find that that you're generating the wrong type of integer number. I mean between your two machines. And also possibly with what it puts as a co Was it expect You know have a read of the code Yeah. a little bit more of the code, just to find out you know, what size integers it's using. And I think that's probably where your pro the problems would be . Mm yes yes. Mm sure. That sounds likely. You know I've seen those sorts of problems before. Trying to think what else there is. Er that's about what there is well there's nothing to look at. At this stage anyway, then we need to have a another think. A little bit of detective work I think to try and find out. I mean you could even write some fairly simple test programs in fact. Mm. That do a little bit of you know, very simple table look up . Or build a table. Does the l does the lexicon generate you the C source code? Like a a C look up table? Or does it generate a file? It generates a large well A large C large C structure. Or a just a large table or a large array. Erm g erm it just gen gen generates a large large . You see cos I know that some of the phases you find that Does it genera you see cos some some of the programs generate programs. In the in the later versions certainly. But you you know you generate some of the C source or assembler source which you then compile. No I assume that your file is not one of those. No. No okay. S Yeah I wo I would basically put money on it being a problem with the the addressing. And it's gonna be either what a a a short it is or what a . . Yeah I I if there's anything else you want to know I mean I think that's quite a good start Erm yeah I'll er one of those problems anyway. I'll go through that I I I would think I can't really see it being much else, I mean it compiles up. That's what it's most likely to be I think. Okay. If there's anything else you want to know? . I'm generally around so you know. Give me a shout. Don't lose your bit of paper. Okay. Yeah that's fine. Thank you very much. It's no problem. This is Aural History Project tape number one of Mr . My name is , the date is the second of March nineteen eighty seven. This is interview number five of Ipswich Docks. before we talk about your working life at Ipswich Docks, could you tell me where you were born. Well I was born at and erm I went to school at then at the later part of my life I went to Hemel Hempstead and then I left only for four months and went to er work for an ironmonger at ten shillings a week. I worked for a month then I went to the dyers and cleaners and I came home to Ipswich in the, on the Easter time and I started work as a turnboy on the dredger at Ipswich at thirty five shillings a week for fi sixty six and a half hours a week, starting from Monday morning at six o'clock to six o'clock Monday night. Can I just go back to Yes. is that ? yes. Where is that? Pardon? Where is it? down at the bottom of opposite the . I see. Wh when were you born? I was born on the twenty eighth of December nineteen ten. Can you remember anything of the area in your early childhood? Yeah I was called a roamer find me. Where did you used to roam? I used to roam all just round the country, round this area, which was all fields at that time and when you got at top, top of you were more or less in the country. Were there any houses about? Pardon? Were there any houses about? Oh yes they start, just start to build the er this estate. What, what estate is this? Well this is, well they call this the part of the hasn't any proper name like this cos these are private houses and estate are council houses but the built at top of was called the Old Plantation and the Old Plantation that's when the first houses were built then of course when you er find the company first started which er Old Plantation is right opposite erm and when you came along past you then branched off to that's all fields and you came down as far as and then you branched off to . of what they call, that we call the . What were the ? Well were just the, all just common ground owned by they own all that ground. What was the like? well that's where all rough grass and like erm like erm gorse bushes and ferns. Did that run down to the river? Yes it did it run down to the river and we used to have to write to to get a permit to camp on there for the week but then there used to be an old, the old foreman of he used to come round every Saturday night, have you got your permit? If you hadn't you had to clear off and that's when we used to make a tent out of anything, old sacks, bits of tarpaulin, anything then it's covered over with erm . How long would you camp up there? For about a week. This was dur this was during the school holidays was it? school holidays we only used to get a month they get about six weeks now I think but no we used to get a month's holiday then. Was that in the summer? In the summer time August, August was the erm was the month's holiday. Did you have any other school holidays? No only at Easter and Whitsun, Christmas. How long did you We used to have a week that's all. What else did you do in your holidays? I do anything, roam about, go harvesting on the harvest fields. Go harvesting? Yeah catching rabbits a hedge and cut down a stick you know at the corn on the old and if we were lucky we used to get erm we used to er seat the old fella on the boiler and have a ride round on one of the horses. Did you ride on the horse's back? Yeah we used to just put an old sack on and more or less bareback. The farmer never minded? No he didn't mind no. Did you catch many rabbits? Oh yeah plenty and we caught them all but we weren't allowed to keep them. Why not? No well we used to kill them with a stick but of course they used to lay the rabbits out at that time to see how many they caught cos that was a little bit of perks for the farm labourers they used to buy a rabbit for sixpence, then they go up to ninepence for a rabbit. Now today I suppose they are about eighty pence something like that. So they didn't mind you catching them ? Well they didn't mind catching them that these here gamekeepers they come on more or less at the finish of the harvest over the field with the guns what was left. You went to school in Ipswich? I went to school at ordinary time from as a kid and then up to till you're about eight years old, then from eight years eight, nine, then you, I went to for about last four years. Did you say school? school. Where is that? Well school is just down, was down, near the gasworks. You say was, is it no longer there? No that's not that school. What was the school like? Hard. Hard? Yes. What the lessons you mean? I mean they'd, they'd, I mean the lessons and if you done anything wrong well you get, you get the cane and anything else. What sort of thing did you have to do wrong to get the cane? Oh anything, if you was talking in the classroom that was the cane. You got the cane for actually talking? Oh yeah talking yeah. Did you get the cane often? No not very often. What sort of lessons did you have, did What lessons, anything arithmetic, mental arithmetic, dictation which I was bad at, my school report was about fair, fair, fair, poor, poor, poor, that's what mine was, I only got about one excellent. Did you do any practical lessons? Pardon? Did you have any practical lessons? Yes we went to erm we used to go through the, the manual for woodwork. No it was what they called the manual that's for learning woodwork, that was once a week. What was the manual? Well that was er plane the bit of wood, learn to plane the bit of wood straight or saw the wood straight and then there is a little, the iron part of it was where you made little any little bits of iron them there to make pretty patterns on it. We had two or three years like that from when you was about ten until you was fourteen and that was in that was in the place called . , that was in the middle, more or less in the middle of the town. And you called that the manual? The manual school, yes. You went up there purposely just for woodwork? That's right, yes. Say about, about half a day a week. That's all you went for. Did other schools use Cos all the other schools they filled in the rest part of the week. So you were all different schools? All the different schools had er cos then we had, used to compete against er all sports and we used to get an afternoon football we used to march from up to the and erm play football but we didn't go up there until at half-time at erm play-time so they went to school at two o'clock and at half past three then that'd be our break, then we'd go up to erm football till five o'clock. Was five o'clock your usual finishing time? Usual finishing time at school five o'clock. What time did you start in the morning? At eight o'clock. We start our school at eight o'clock, at nine o'clock it used to be prayers in the hall. They were long days? They were long days at school. How old were you then? How old was I then, nine or ten. And then from that school you went on to another one? I went to Hemel Hempstead er a school called in Hemel Hempstead that was only from the August till December when I left school and then the erm then the Headmistress, cos we had a Headmistress there cos it was a mixed school, and she recommended me for this here errand boy's job, his name was . You took the job? Pardon? You took the job did you I took the job yes, ten shillings a week. Where was this? That was in Hemel Hempstead. Did you like it? No I didn't cos I was on, I used to be on a oil card delivering paraffin oil round the countryside and then cos I used to stink apparently and then I got this job at er on a pushbike unclear lot cleaner, I got ten shillings from them and a shilling from the next door for cleaning their windowsill every morning. That's a small little homemade bakers then on the on the Easter Thank you My father come to see me at one holiday and the Easter time he see something happen and they didn't like him and cos all my as cabin boy. So you came straight back to Ipswich? Come straight back to Ipswich And you then started work? I started work on the dredger. Mm mm what did your, what did your father do when you were a child? Pardon? What was your father's occupation? Oh he was on the river he he was always connected with the river my father and in the First World War they towed the dredger from here to Ramsgate and er he was, he was in the Army but he was connected to the Inland Water Transport and cos they were dredging out the harbour at Ramsgate. I have known him to come home he's had a weekend off with a kitbag full of fish, beautiful fish he used to bring home cos no sooner on the train and right home Mm mm and they all come home lovely and fresh, plaice and different types of fish. And that all used to end up on your dinner plate? That did yes. Was your father a dredgerman then? He was a dredgerman yes, see he was on the river first then he went on the dredger and course that's before my time and that was during the First World War he was on he was at Ramsgate. Course then he finished, they finished dredging at night on, at nineteen thirty two cos they said it was costing too much the did and erm they were building some new cranes down there, so I said to my father, and he was very friendly with the Harbourmaster, he said erm was there any chance of getting one of them cranes so when he went and saw the Harbourmaster he said no he said the boy don't know nothing about electricity either so he said no nor did no other buggers he said they didn't know anything about it so he got the job. He didn't want to know anything he wanted to drive the crane so he give me a start. so when you started at the dock, you started as what? I started as a cabin boy on the dredger. What did that involve? Well that erm keeping the galley fire which I let out several times. Was it a coal fire? Coal fire and er scrubbed the cabin out like that, soda water and soft soap. When you let the fire out did you get into trouble? Yeah I just swore at my father did well I said getting up at six o'clock in the morning every day and then go to work till six at night cos during the day I get tired so I use to lay down on his bunk then he'd lift his little hat a way up and he'd say er bloody fire's out. Cos he'd want a cup of tea. So you cooked on the fire as well? Yeah cooked, we done everything on the fire Mm mm yeah old galley stove, galley oven just like the old fashioned oven it was, so you had your full hearth and used to bake in the oven and of course you cook on the top, and you had about five different rings cos the fire is to put the damper in the chimney to make the heat go round the oven. You used to cook all your own meals on that? Do all our own meals yes, my mother she used to mix up, to say that we want er suet pudding and erm she had mixed up ready and put the cloth on top and all I got to do is just boil the water and just stick it in. That was handy then. She used to make me a plum duff, the old currant duffs and anything like that my mother would make for us. You never went hungry on board then? Never went hungry, no my mother always have a good, always used to have a good table, very good, we were a very lucky family, anybody used to come in our house on a weekend they always thought there was a party every weekend. Well my father was earning a good money. I mean women, men in the warehouse they were on about two guineas a week. Now my father was earning five pounds seven and six, twelve and six a week so there was a big difference in money weren't there and then you see be that list when they finished dredging he had to drop right back two pounds thirteen a week. What else did you do just as a cabin boy ? What else if I, I have to go and relieve er if I want er to only work down the cabin and it come to meal times cos we carried on dredging from six in the morning we do al all the winters round cos they eat on the dredger they used to eat three winches four winches on the dredger cos they'd heave the dredger across the river and back again,wo when they come to meal times I used to have to go on and relieve the man what was driving that winch and I used t cos the er er chins coming round the barrel of the winch they used to override and I used to have a handle to knock them clear. Why did you have to knock them clear? Well if you didn't there'd be so much change on the bail that they all start to fall off and there'd be all one big muddle cos that and as chain coming down that used to come right down into the chain locker to the bottom of the ships. What was the chain locker? Well a chain locker is where all the spare chain used to like coil up So it came in and it went round round the barrel about three times round the barrel then right down into the chain locker but if you kept, let it ride what we used to call let it ride well well now it get so big then you have to run it all off cos you had one lever, that's what you had and the steam valve could have all steamed. All the machinery was All steam. operated by steam All re even the engine room was steam cos you had the bucket depth of dredging on that ladder was thirty six feet that's what dredger can go down so far with the buckets going round and they used to dredge about thirty six feet. Actually go down and thirty six foot of water? Down yes. Dredge down? Could do yes. What do you mean by the ladder? The ladder is where the buckets er er run on you see that's the ladder like that from what they call the top tumbler what used to be the top tumbler used to have five sides What do you mean by tumbler? Well a tumbler is where they, the buckets used to go over the top and empty into a chute into the hopper and er went cos it was on a continual chain you see cos you had a bucket two links, a bucket two links, a bucket two links, all the way round and that's how you used to dredge all the time round and round and round and that's how it went over to the top tumbler cos you had a bottom tumbler on this layer and a top tumbler, otherwise you couldn't dredge otherwise and that top tumbler, I am certain it had five, five sides to it because at one, at one time you'd tip a bucket on one then you'd get two lengths so it kept the tumbler more or less equal all the way round the wear and tear of it. And so that, would you lower the, the ladder into the water? Yeah you'd lower that down. My father used to have what they call a lead line that used to be a wire with a all marked with feet and fathoms on and sound and So you had to And then when you dredged across again cos you used t you always went er, you always had er er say every foot he had with a piece of spunyarn in the wire Spunyarn? Spunyarn, yes What's spunyarn? Well that's like er tarred rope that's what it was and er used to put a piece through the wire every foot and when you come to six feet there'd be a piece of leather, cut in cut one piece of leather. Then you had this next fathom, the second fathom had the leather cut in two and then have different colours at every feet as well. And this, so these were attached to what? Just a bit of wire. Just a piece of wire? And of course he used have it in his hand in a loop and he used to top it over the side with a big lead weight on and that and he, he'd know how much deep the er river was. Was that recognised tools Pardon? What that a recognised tool for judging the depth? Oh yes yes you out of that yes. See and then in the finish they went on the wire, they went to chain. And how did they use chains? Well they chain just the same way, just marks on it and Was there any benefit in changing over to chain? Well I think there's the stretching of it you see, I mean wire w after a certain time it would stretch a bit Yes. where a chain wouldn't, that'd wear a little bit but not too much. So as a cabin boy you had to relieve I had to relieve, relieve the other deck hands for their meals and I started cleaning their cabin out as well. Did they all have their own cabins? Well they had one big long one, they did. And you had to clean And I had to clean them and I had to get a bucket of water and sluice it down with a hard broom and . I used to go down the villages. Into the villages? Yeah. What are the villages? The villages are at the bottom of the ship. Cos then you come to your floor and then your sides used to go up villages on a ship. And was the water there to go down into the villages? Yes, cos they usually all water underneath there and that used to be pumped out, every so often the engine room would pump all that out and to heat any water up the cabins there used to be a, a small pump what used to pump the fresh water into the boiler and I used to have a a piece of er copper off that and just turn the steam on a little bit put it into a bucket of cold water and then instead of driving the pump that'd go into the, the er bucket and heat the water and boil it. And that was your own invention was it? Yes. But the hoppers they used to be, er two hoppers we had two of them hoppers, we had the er one called the Hello, hello girl, yes please a dozen, yeah, er no I don't think so, no I don't think so mate, no, yeah are you on holiday this week? Oh well might have perhaps will you have a spare day No I want to go out for a meal No, but I been home but at dinner time just . Yeah alright yeah I mean if your car's in you can take mine do it a bit of good. Right oh see you later. Cheerio . That's John, me boy, he's a docker down the erm down the dock he got a weeks holiday this week, so I took me other boy and me daughter out last week and erm we'd left her with dogs so I said we'd take them out one day perhaps when he get his holiday. Oh I see so you are going out with him later on? Yeah he'll see what his wife say. You say he's a docker? He's a docker. Actually handling the cargo? Well he drive these, they don they don't handle much now. They erm, what they do they drive these big Tugmasters now with these lorries so that they plant all these erm forty foot trailers with er with er erm with a container on and place them on the ship. So they load the ships down there now. Oh like the roll on roll off Roll on, exactly yeah. ferry? That's right, yeah. It's a lot easier now isn't it? Oh it is a lot easier cos that all they have to do is run on, drop 'em come off again. Going back to your life as cabin boy, what other duties did you have to perform? On the . Well shipping Angus, so you know when the dredgers go on er er er creeping ahead, see we used to have er what we call the head wire there used to be a wire which was all stretched out say about half a mile and what you s and erm and all according what erm how much mud you were dredging for the depth of water and then my father would give the signal to say right, cos on the, on the head wire used to have a pull, we call the pulls and they were like er a jutted piece off the wheel and he'd say five pulls ahead and we'd say one two three four five right and we went ahead with it and then when we were dredging sidewards you see, used to sidewards, you never went ahead with it, not all the time you c you went sidewards across the river, and erm once you got ahead your side chains they moving up cos you got so far ahead th that the side chains weren't much good to you, so you had to then move your side chains so you got a little off the mud in an old boat and then re further up the river. You say pick your anchors up in an old boat? Yes. You see well the point was when you pick 'em up erm we had a sm we had a big boat, what we called hanger boat, a very heavy boat and that used to have a wooden so therefore we used to pull it up by hand and pull it ove on a little barrel with a hand power that's what we used to do and once we got the anchor in board we'd pull the chain in by hand and then rerun it again right on to the mud and on the anchor again. So you actually had to go on to a smaller boat? Smaller boat, yes. Go up and get the anchor That's right and pull it in to the small boat? Pull it in to the small boat, lay it on a box and then we'd pull the chain in by hand and then we'd rerun it further up the river. Why did you do that? Well I mean if you er, if your chain was going too far astern you might pull the dredger astern too much so gotta keep your chain up the river, that's what you go got to do all the time. So that was your job as well? That was my, that was part of our job. Wasn't that hard work? That was hard work all the time, my hands my hands used to chap on the backs, used to chap hands and that was only, I was over the wind, I wind and, and er when I used to scrub the cabin out which was with washing soda and soft soap and when you went along cos that was you get, you get erm, ordinary washing soda on the back of your hands and they didn't supply anything then. The docker docker mission wouldn't supply you with water boots we had to supply our own, now today they supply them with everything even underlinen I think nearly now. What was the wages like ? Our wages? As a cabin boy? Well I got thirty five shillings a week and I was doing six hou twelve hours a day from Monday till Friday and twelve and a half on a Saturday. And how old were you? Fourteen years old. Was that good money for a fourteen year old? That was good wages then Apprentice apprentice boys in th in the foundry were only getting five shillings a week. Apprentice boy, my mate he er our friend dead and gone, he's a good turner that runs er er reels, yet erm that's all he got was five shillings a week after er no seven year's apprenticeship. So you were on really good money? So I, I was earning good money. Do you think that's why they asked you to buy your own protective clothing or was that normal ? unclear get to buy your own I, I er didn't have rubber boots, I had big leather boots up to me thigh, that's what I bought and that leather then they didn't have nails in the shoes in the, in the bottom they had wooden pegs, so that the, your leather was held by wooden pegs and the and the leather at that time were the thigh boots, you could roll them right the way down,. Were they specially made? Specially made, yes. Did you have them made in Ipswich? No, we bought them all secondhand well they used to come round with this, not secondhand stuff but all new stuff and he used to go round the dock selling different er water boot socks and sweaters and he dealer. How did he get round the docks? Oh he used to have his pushbike, go round. What bicycle with a box on? Yes, never had a motor car then, nobody had a motor car then only the Harbourmaster and he had a little old Austin Ruby, the Harbourmaster did, but other duty Harbourmaster he had a motorbike and sidecar. He used to go to work on pushbike. He lived in at that time just over the road er down the road here and then something went wrong during the war that was over my father and er cos matter of fact when my father come off the dredger erm the Harbourmaster wanted to give him er he give him the push and turned round and he said my father name was . ? , that was his nickname and er he went into the office and he told the Harbourmaster he said if you don't employ back again he said I'm off and out and he took me father back again. He got his job back? He got his job back, you see, and erm Do you know why he was called ? No I don't, no that was just a nickname they give him for years ago, matter of fact I the other day, I was walking up and he called me , so I took me father's name you see, nickname, that was . Extraordinary, isn't it ? And me other bro me other uncle he was called . So the nickname followed on really? That followed on right through the family but my boys they haven't got that name, cos they older they, old all gone now, old doctors and that. Going back to the man with the pushbike. Did he come round every week? Oh yes, that was his living unclear So he, he was er Anybody want anything he was there, his name was and he used to run up like er tally, tallyman he was you'd pay at the most ten shillings down about two and six a week, something like that. What credit? Yes, so that's, he was round after his money every week. Oh I see and got wh what sort of things did he sell? I mean, he sell anything in the clothes line, anything. I know these boots we bought off him they were three pound twelve and six they were. I mean they were lovely boots I mean a pair of water boots three pounds twelve and six and we used to put them, er make 'em soft, we used to do them over with text oil. That was like er er what you call a linseed oil, they call is text that's some animal's erm oil I think out of the house and cos they used to, used to rub that in and you could them down lovely. Also made them waterproof as well? Waterproof as well, yes. With the oil in them unclear Yes. Did you have to wear any other sort of special clothing? We, when we were dredging, we were dredging now from Cliff Quay and er used to get all this er grey mud and erm and the chalk and when we used to dredge, we got down to chalk er, more or less the depth we wanted to go and anybody dredging down there today if they dredge the chalk at Cliff Quay that's the depth of water you want and erm then we dredged erm just below erm and then we went to Freston Freston we were dredging peat. Pondoes well you got Pondoes one side and you got Freston on the other and we were dredging up . In that peat there used to be deer's teeth, everything, parts of the jaw, horns, what we were dredging up, then we went further down to erm Downham Reach, that's just before the Cattoes and we were dredging all green clay. Green clay? Green clay we were dredging and sometimes you know that wouldn't leave the bucket. The clay wouldn't lea you couldn't clear the buckets, so we used to what we had a grafting tool, that was like a spade but that was, er, that was er, narrow at one end, the spade at the bottom end was a bit narrow so you could cut th cut the clay out of, out the buckets and that was a hard job too. That was difficult? Yes. Was it your job to do that? Well that was, that was the crew's job you see cos you used to have, they used to be erm, they used to be the master of the ship, my father, and they would still have a mate , he's dead and gone and there was myself one side on the starboard side on a winch and we had two men right aft on the after winch and they used to have to look after three chains. Cos you had a stern chain and two side chains. Because you had to have the stern anchor to keep the buckets off the face of what you was dredging cos if you didn't your dredge'd go ahead too much and er you had big problems there and you wouldn't be able to dredge. Did your dredger have a name? Just the That was just the , yeah, dredger and th the tug was called er Nine 0, the Ninety. Then after that they bought another tug called , then they had another one called the , that was a diesel tug. What were the other tugs? Er steam. Steam? And they sorry Cos the the reason they, they er done away with the steam tugs and had a diesel, because a diesel you could start up and er when the dredging finished they tipped the tug at Ipswich and er if they want they one of the big ships up the river, cos then they could start the diesel up quite, right away, whereby a steam tug you a fire there all the time. I mean a steam tug you got to have coal and you got to have the old boiler, old boiler, you got to heat that up for the steam cos that didn't pay then. That was a, that was a tug. Did the steam always work with the dredger? Yes. What was that to move her about? Well no, that's to, we had two what they call, two dumb hoppers the Roxanne and the Sandbank and those dumb hoppers had to be towed to sea and t take What do y what do you mean by dumb hopper? Dumb hoppers well they ain't got any part, everything was hand. And why did you have them? Well that's a, that's a thing of that particular day, at that time th th and life erm and then they get what they call, they bought a steam hopper, so the steam hopper would say, could get to sea quicker in half the time the dumb hoppers could and so we were rotating all the time, there used to be one dumb hopper go to sea, one steam hopper and we'd be loading the other dumb hopper and then th course the steam hopper would be back in half the time we'd that and that's how we rotate, day to day. By the hopper you mean carrying the soil? Carrying, carrying all the soil to sea. Oh erm it was dumped at sea was it? Yeah it was dumped at sea off the Cork, Cork Light erm Cork Lightship. They used to have an imaginary light er an imaginary mark from Cork Lightship to Walton on the Naze and er the men who bought the Cork Lightship, they would take notice every time that hopper went out there, they'd see when they were dumping cos if that was, if they were a bit cute, some of the boys, they'd dump a bit short of the dumping ground, that's what used to happen, cos they'd report them then to Harwich, Harwich will report them to Harbourmaster at Ipswich, then there'd be a And who would get into trouble for that? Well the skipper of the hopper, he get into trouble for that cos he should have gone out to the dumping ground. And did that often happen? Oh no that didn't, and cos they got a good job, I mean five pound seven and six a week a skipper's earnings. The mate used to get erm on the dredger the tug and the two dumb hoppers, or the dumb hoppers they used to get four pound five shillings a week and erm and my father got five pound twelve and six and then it went so long we were given near the end of the dredger and er in the Harbourmaster's wisdom he cut us all down five shillings a week, so we get three pound fifteen shillings. Why did he cut you down? Well cos they were getting short of money. When was this then? This be about nineteen twenty nine. Wh why were they getting short of money? Well cos th the government had allowed them so much I suppose and erm that was costing them so much on wages and that, so they had to cut them down on wages. So this was a particular project just to river? That's right and er at that year, that er time, we had a drop of five shillings a week and he had an increase of fifty pound a year. Harbourmaster did. How did that go down ? Not very good. That's what he got that was little Irishman. Were there any problems because of that? No we couldn't say nothing because I mean that was a time when you had a good job then, unemployment was just the same in the nineteen thirties. I mean nineteen thirty, thirty one was a bad time for employment. So this job was coming to an end about this time? That was yeah, that finished in nineteen thirty two. You were all a bit concerned I suppose? We were, yes, cos that's when I went on to the crane driving in for a crane and got it you see, that's why I finished up as a crane driver until I went stevedoring. So go going back to the dredging, did you eventually take over from your father on the dredger? No, no, my father he finished his dredging harbourmaster, and that's when they finished dredging then. What else did you have to do on the dredger? Well anything what was going, anything, change the buckets, on the that used to be every Saturday afternoons, they used to be home . We used to work there from half past twelve till five o'clock at night, taking the bucket out and put another bucket in because the buckets what they used to call the bushes what were connected to the links they used to wear and we used to have to take them, one of them out and used to have a big chain go right the way round and bring the, bring the buckets backwards and they used to loosen up all the, all the pins what used to go through the buckets in the, in the links, so we took them out and then they used to go up to the dock and br they put new bushes in. Used to bring them up to the dock Used to bring them up to the dock. and put them in a boat and bring them back? Put them up in a boat yeah. They used to, cos they'd put a couple in the old anchor boat what we weren't using it, put a couple in there and they'd tow 'em up to the dock. How would you get them into the boat, because they must have been heavy? Well we had a old wooden crane aboard the dredger,that was all hand power, that's just the old wooden derrick and when they got up to the, up to the dock, they had a, cos they had a crane paint with it or a steam crane. And they used to come up to the maintenance workshop maintenance workshop and be done, that used to be the job for the fitters and blacksmiths. Did you have to wait for it to be done? No, no, cos we always had so many spare buckets you see. Oh you carried spares . How large were the buckets? I would say they be about erm three feet across. That's, that's I'd say three feet across. And how deep? Oh about erm three feet deep I reckon they were, I mean to load up er eight hundred tonnes, which we average these hoppers out at, er er we were getting a good soil we'd load up eight hundred tonne in an hour and a half to two hours, between hour and a half to two hours we'd be loaded, that's all depend on what you was dredging, you might be interested in and, and go quicker, if you were dredging greenfly that's be alright you'd, if you dredged peat well that hopper would be full but it wouldn't be half lo it'd be half loaded you see, be half way down to the plimsoll mark. So, so much lighter? That's lighter stuff. If you er dredged ballast, did you used to dump the ballast? Yes that used to but sometimes they used to bring it up the river and they use a lot the ballast we er did dredge for erm, for the first part of Cliff Quay, used it when they built that. You remember Cliff Quay being developed? I remember it yes. Well before I went to Hemel Hempstead, my father was dredging the first part of the quay at six hundred feet, what we call a six hundred feet, the first part and er I used to take his dinner down, because he'd, he wouldn't have anything cooked aboard the ship. Why was that? I don't know but he wouldn't, he wouldn't have it cooked aboard there, my mother used to cook it for him and I'd stagger down in an ordinary shopping basket, in two basins there'd be vegetables in one and his pudding and gravy in the other and I used to take that down for him and he used to come ashore and he used to then go and have it. That weren that weren't far from to er Cliff Quay, do it in about ten minutes on your bike. How did you get out to the boat? Well they used to have a little rowing boat and come after it, he used to get one of the lads while they come ashore and got his dinner. Did they take you back or just the dinner? No, they just t they just take the, the dinner back. Did you used to want to go over? Oh I, I'd gone over several times, oh yes. Excuse me. I got swore at many a time, I did. Well I tell you what I was doing, I was in the stern of the boat coming ashore with one oar in the stern of the boat, I was like hell you know, and I was standing on the sculling. On the On the seats we'll call it, on the seats of the rowing boat, I was standing on that and my father said to me when I got aboard, don't do that no more, he said, cos he say if that paddle, what we call the paddle, come out of that sculling hole, he said you'll go over the side and the boat will go away from you, he said, you'll be bloody well drowned, which was right never forgot it never. Now it was the truth, I mean when you scull the boat, they call that sculling, rowing, they usually do a figure of eight with one oar and a figure of eight, that's how you do that, that's a hard job to keep that into that here hole at the back of the boat, because Where was the hole then The hole on the stern of the boat, see you got your boat come round like that, From, from a point erm From the point down to the stern of the boat and then there was a hole in there like that cut out of the wood. Just like your U shaped . That's right and put your paddle in that and you scull you had to come down every time and many a time people'd learn that that paddle will come out, but once you got the knack of it you could do it one hand, cos you was cutting down all the time like that's what it was. So you were, in fact, going backwards, backwards the boat was going forward. That's right, yeah, that's right you was back to where you were going. Did you ever have any accidents? No, no, I scull one hand, like that. But you used to get in trouble for standing on the seats? For standing on the, on the seats you see, which I mean my father was right he'd got the experience to know that several men had been drowned like that. What else did you get in trouble for? Oh nothing else, no nothing else, well we daren't because I mean my father was so strict, you know you gotta do as your told. On the dredger what other jobs would you have to do in the way of maintenance, you said you had to repair the buckets. Buckets, well every night time, when we finished dredging, you had to wash down, wash the decks down cos I mean that the decks used to be covered in mud and slush, so all we had then was an old draw bucket on a bit of rope, over the side, there weren't no hoses then, we used to the bucket and then we used to swing all the mud back in there, in the river. Just wash the decks down. So you used to put the, drop the bucket down the side Yes, on a bit.. on a bit of rope Then haul it back up. Haul it back up, then chuck it down on the deck and scrub your decks after. Scrub the decks clean. Where was the mud coming from, falling out the bucket? Co fall out the bucket you see on the when they over the top tumbler that'd splash on into the chute, there used to be a chute, take it right into the harbour. When that gone down they used to splash cos that used to come underneath the buckets and our cabin hatchway was facing that and many a time that'd come right down the cabin, the mud. Actually fall down inside the ? That would I mean that'd splash down there. So it was quite messy on board? Oh that was messy, you're telling me was messy, I've known cups of tea, you put a cup of tea on there the other cup of tea was there, well we never used to have saucers couldn't afford them, that'd be there a mug of tea and that'd move like that off the table that'd come cos the dredger was shaking so much. Actually vibrate the whole boat? That vibrate the whole boat that would do. Was it noisy? Noisy, helluva row. And you liked working on there? Oh I really enjoyed it, yes. Really enjoyed working there. Became a way of life for you Pardon? I would have thought it became a way of life? Well I think it was I mean that erm we when you dredge from the Causeway I'd say near the Harbourmaster's office and we dredged all the way to Botterman's Bay just below Pinmill and that Botterman's Bay was that's a place where they had and that's where the big ships used to moor then and they used to get.. be lightened, like all grain goods and that used to be loaded into barges by hand and then when it goes so light they used to the fish with about three thousand grain in 'em and then they used to fill them up in the dock, on the same method. How long did it take you to dredge that length? Well we dredged them from nineteen twenty five to nineteen thirty two. And you were dredging all the while? All the time yes, apart from say about six weeks, used to come in in the winter to repair the do maintenance on the dredger and then the old harbourmaster would say right, we should have been here for six weeks, he come after a month, he'd say, paint the cover the rust up he said and bugger off out again. Start dredging, see he wanted to get the job done. I know that on Sunday I was on, on the watch, this weekend, and there was so much ice on the river, our anchor boat which is all made of wood, that's moored up alongside the dredger and when I went along and got, that was about twelve o'clock in the mid-day. That was half full of water and the ice had cut through the wood flow down the river, cos the water was coming in like hell and er cos one thing I had to do about it, had like a chain in the, in th in the boat, so we pulled the chain out, I pulled the chain out first and go just got the, the erm hull just above water so I bail the boat out with a bucket chuck it down the side right quick. That's how I saved the boat then. Otherwise it'd er fill right up down to the side the, the top of the boat, that was on a Sunday. Were you working this particular Sunday? Well I was on watch, weekend watch, you see. What was weekend watch? Well I went to work on the Saturday morning at six and we were dredging until half past twelve, then we would, then do repairs till five o'clock at night and then five o'clock at night, when the other crew had gone home, when I start to stay there then from five o'clock Saturday night till Monday morning six o'clock all the time just to keep watch on the dredger, I used to sleep mind you during part of the time and erm used to have a big old tortoise stove down the cabin and make good fire. When you say tortoise stove Well that was what they call it, tortoise stove, used to be a big stove and that ain't got no grate in they had er they used to feed it from the top, What with? coal, and then rake down to the bottom and that's when you open the little door for the draught to go up and they cal they call them tortoise stove. Is that what kept you warm? That what kept us warm. I didn't sleep in my father's bunk I used to sleep on the table, I er had an old flock mattress, that's what I had, an old flock mattress and a flock pillow. Why did you sleep on the table? Well the was right near the fire. See we had a fire right in the middle of the cabin and I used to chuck this here er flock mattress on the table and the blankets over the old flock pillow and go to sleep that way. What were you keeping watch for while you were on board? Well we had to keep somebody on watch in case there was any damage, say the ship was up the river and a chain broke or they hit you, so you had to put your navigation lights up and to put navigation lights up we had hurricane lamps, we had a red and a white one, they should have been six foot apart, they never were they was about three foot. Why was that? Well, that's the quickest way to do it, we used to hang one below the other on the dredger,be put up at sunset and we used to take 'em down early in the morning, but you always had, you always had erm navigation lights up, must So this was part of the job at the weekend? That was part of your job as a watchman, you have to all the little paraffin lamps, that's all they were, sometimes they'd keep alight and sometimes they wouldn't, they'd go out but there was there was never much erm work at night times on the river, might be an old barge. I remember one time er these barges, old barges when you used to come up there, they ain't got any engine in 'em at all because now they got motors in 'em, but erm, at that time, I was asleep one night and er these barges had been up, they'd been down the the engine room, cos the engine room and the stoke hall was all in one and th and then I was so sound asleep they'd filled the sacks up with coal and took them up over the and took the only thing they did do they didn't take the shovel they'd used, cos they bought their shovel from off the barge and they left that downhill that's how they'd pinched the coal. It didn't make any difference to me. They actually came aboard and pinched your coal? They'd pinched the coal and that didn't make any difference to me because it weren't my coal, Did you have any coal left after that? Oh yeah, we had plenty of coal, plenty of coal. I didn't mind them taking any coal. And you were asleep while they did it? But I was asleep while the while they took it. But then you gained their shovel anyway. Gained their shovel. Cos their shovel was different to ours, but that weren't any good to us cos that was er, cos what they used to trim grain with, now a grain shovel was made of tin and cos our shovels what they used to feed the boiler with were all steel shovels. so that wasn't strong enough to shovel coal? They weren't any good to shovel coals no,is to give it away again. Did wha did that usually happen, come aboard and steel ? Oh very often, yeah, very often. Now we used to clean the bottom up cos used to be a big boiler in the dredger and erm we used to close down every six weeks, which they used to call blow the boiler down, that mean that they open the valve and the heat used to take all the water into the river, so er, that used to be blown down Friday night, come Saturday morning we'd start at six o'clock and chip all the fur off inside the boiler, cos the boiler was made with all and what we call the crown, that used to be the two furnaces, cos they're double the big boiler were a double furnace and we had to chip all that fur off them, well it used to take us now from six o'clock in the morning or say seven when we got there had to go down the tug and er go down the tug and erm, then we go aboard and strip off. You didn't want any clothes on, you put a pair of trousers on, that's all you want and a little old thin shirt and chip all this stuff off the what we call the crown. Was it hot in there? That was hot, yes and th in between there used to be that's where your furnace used to go in and come back and up out the chimney and that they put them the in there to heat the water quick you see and yet they ought to be, they had to be sliced out with a what they call a slice, cos they used to get furred up and we used to give them nineteen and sixpence for that to fill the boiler up again, we had t used to have take Pinmill and they used to have to come up to get fresh water into the anchor boat and we used to pump it up by hand, into the boiler. Everything was done by hand? Everything was done by hand. Everything. When you got water, when you came up to the docks to get water, where would you obtain that from? Well they usually out out of the er hydrant on the quay cos the hydrant on the quay there used to be a water main a the water main used to go along there and we used to put so much water into the boat and now we come down and used to pump that out and then go back after some more. Was that a hydrant available for the use of all the steam boats? Pard yes that was, oh yes. Were there many hydrants? Oh yes, on, on Cliff Quay. You get I reckon you get one about every fifty yards, something like that. Maybe less than that. You've still got 'em round the dock now. Where are they now? On the edge of the Quay. Do they still work? They still work I they've got there used to be one man er employed to erm give these er boats water, fresh water drinking water What would ? What would he be called, what was, what He just call him the waterman. Waterman? The waterman, and he had, he had a clock on top of his hydrant, to say how much water the the the boat taken. Soon did they soon take up enough he used to go on board with his book and get it signed by the mate or the er captain of the ship. And is do you know how much they were charged? I don't know but an ordinary barge used to have a little wooden crate and he want to have a little tank, they put a fixed charge on of two and six pence that's what they done. Even if he had a small pond ? If he had a small pond it used to be was two and sixpence that's all they used to charge, but of course the other boats, now the boats that used to come from Rotterdam they wouldn't fill up there and they were Dutch boats, they wouldn't fill up in water out of the Rhine in Rotterdam, they always wait until they come to Ipswich and got fresh water. Why was that? Well it was better than what theirs was, cos theirs come out of the Rhine. Which wasn't very clean? Weren't very clean and er course Ipswich water's all nice fresh water, they always filled up with fresh water at Ipswich, the Dutch boats which was the we had three boats there, they used to be the Ipswich , Ipswich Progress and Ipswich Pioneer. They had them three boats and then they used to take do away with the small boats and they had one big one, the Ipswich erm Pioneer Progress something like that. What did they do? They used to bring all general cargo from Rotterdam to Ipswich. Wh when was this? Oh about erm, let me see about ten years ago. Oh you're going back ten years ? Yeah, about ten years that's all. Going back to when you were on watch on the dredger over the weekends, did it ever feel lonely? Well we had er,th there always used to be one man aboard the dumb hopper,wh they used to leave there for Monday morning and they used to p him, a man with him. With me there, but he'd be aboard the dumb hopper and I'd be aboard the dredger and I remember one man, he turned round, his name was ex naval man he was and er I went round on the Sunday morning and he didn't speak to me on the Saturday. I went to him on the Sunday morning I said morning Charlie, he said morning and I said ni I said goodnight Charlie, he say goodnight and that's the only thing he said to me all the weekend. That's true. Yeah. He used t he used t he used to take about half a dozen bottles of beer on the Saturday morning with him and that's where he used to be in his, in his galley and he wouldn't move out that galley all the time. He wasn't a talkative . Oh he weren't, no. Coo Charlie I always remember him, ex naval man. So how did you fill in your time? Eh? How did you fill in your time? Just sit there and do anything, do a bit of fishing. Fishing? Yeah, you could fish in the river then. What sort of fish did you used to get? Small little dabs, dabs and eels. Did you eat them. Yes. You used to cook them on board? Cook them on board. I know, I went, I got some whelks once and that was in Bay, they were lovely whelks and I put 'em in a bucket and er didn't think and now I used to put some flour in with 'em. If you put flour with 'em, with the whelk they used to make 'em nice and fat and tender. Why, because they feed on it? They're feeding on this here, on this flour. Anyhow, the next morning I got up they were all over the deck, they crawled out of the bloody bucket. They crawled out the bucket all over the deck. That my first experience of catching whelks. How did you catch the whelks? Well you had a ho used to have a hoop net,a a and that used to be a re like with a hoop. That used to be with er a piece of net in and across the top used to have two piece of wire, one way, and two piece the other and you catch a crab open the crab open and they used to put the crab between there and the whelks used to feed on the crab and then when you pulled it out, they all went to the bottom of the net. clever. That's how we used to catch the fish like that. Earlier on you were talking about erm the dredger bringing up fish or you your father Oh yes we use cos when you're dredging, you see when the eels came in the mud, eels always go in the mud in the winter time, you don't, many eels swirl out, they go in the mud and when you're dredging and they're going into the hopper, cos they used to get stunned and they used to swim round right down the top of the water and they used to come up to the side, and if they come up to the side you could have your knife and just come here, cos they were stunned, pick 'em out. What you lean over? No, well there weren't much to see if your hopper was full, you ain't got far to go cos they only come about a foot off side, you see you could just kneel down there and catch 'em. Did everybody take fish? Well there were them what could get 'em. They won't be interest to someone. Something go a hang whether they had cut the fish or not. Where was the best place for bringing up fish on the river? I reckon the best place is Finn Mill, cos that was a lot cleaner, see your river, now cos that's polluted now and er all you get in the river now is you get flounders or eels, that's what you get. At that time, I mean, I have known when my, when I was a dredger and they used t we used to clean the bottom, I have known er mussels on the bottom, used to feed on, be on the side of the ship, good mussels, but of course there used to be cockles, winkles. Mm. Winkles down at Finn Mill there used to be sm well thousands, millions of them, winkles and the ships used to come round from the Blackwater from Colchester area, come round, stay round the Finn Mill about a fortnight and they used to have what they call a well in their boat and they used to have fill up little sacks like a sand bag of winkles and take them round there and cultivate them. Now there's no there's no er winkles in the river today. There are fertilisers gone down the river and they kill them all off. Where do the fertilisers come from? Fertiliser factory down here. What on the dock? Yeah, Cliff Quay. When was that built? Oh was built oh that was built nineteen thirty odd Mm mm. And course they used to dump further down the there. Not in my time but they used to be all branched off, there used to be a lot of oysters. Now they're all gone round the Colchester area Cos they're finished, they call them the oyster beds. When you were on the watch for the weekend, did you used to get extra payment for that? Ten shillings from Saturday morning, from when they when the men left off at half past four on a Saturday till six o'clock Monday morning, we got ten shillings and if and if we were on watch on th on the night time, cos we used to do one watch one week and one night one week and two nights next, cos there used to be the mate and erm three more sailors, used to take turns, well there was only four nights so the man who done the Monday night, they done the Friday night. So he got two nights in one week and the others done the Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday. That's how they used to work around all the time. So it was watched all the while like that? you got to have a watchman all the time on the dredger. Did anything ever go wrong when you were on watch? No, never. No. The the boats coming up would have passed if if you were down the river. Any boat coming up would have come fairly close wouldn't it? That would do, but they should ease down when they come past, but they didn't, they never took no notice. Didn't they? Oh no, my father stand aboard there when we have been dredging, you know, and they come up there at speed and he stood there and he swore at at that part of if, call them all the crazy buggers my father. But they never took any notice? Yes, there was one pilot down there, his name was George and er, my father was in one Sunday and he said to my father, he said he say you only think you know the river. Cos he'd report there was a there weren't enough water inside the place, so he said to my father, say to him, he'd say er don't you tell me all thick he'd say, I dredge the bloody river, he say. You keep in the channel he say you the ground and that was the truth too. He he went out the channel went on the boat. How wide was the channel? Well it was all different widths. The widest part, I think, is what they call near the just below the, that's er what they call that's not in the book now. Hall Point they dunno where that Is that Hall Point? Hall Point that was called. H A double L? And then you had one at Pinmill, now they've got erm the in there in that book now, well that was called Point, one or two of the old names are there like Deer Park Lodge and the river in Foxes Bottom. Where was Foxes Bottom? Foxes Bottom was just below Pinmill, opposite Bay. Going away from Ipswich? On going away from Ipswich on, yes, on the Pinmill side. Cos you got Nagden the other side, right opposite Nagden Chorlis The Cat House, where was that? The Cat House well that's at , the Cat House, that's wher that's where the house used to be, where in er time erm, that's where they used to put a cat in the window for the smokers. What a real cat? I dunno whether it was a real cat, I don't think so, as a matter of fact I was just finished reading the book which is interesting, tell you all about the river. Why did they put the cat in the window? Well smokers all clear or not I don't know but th that even mentioned in that book Downham Reach and that talk about the Priory Farm where was cos that was all walking about all these smugglers at that time but the book I, the history I thought about don't seem the same in the book now. So you used to dredge all that length right the way down All that length, yeah right up from in the dock Right to the dock yes right the way through? Yeah, what we call a new cut, we dredge right opposite the Harbourmaster's office and we dredged all and we used to do that tide time, had to work at ti tides, when it's high tide, cos that otherwise there weren't any water there at all. That's when the erm, the pleasure boats used to run from there, the Suffolk and the Norfolk, them, they were erm, they were sharp both ends, the Suffolk and the Norfolk. Sharp both ends? Yeah, well they got they were, they were sharp both ends, they weren't, ain't got no stern, them paddle they were paddle boats, so there you got one they had a rudder each end so they had to keep one rudder shut and the other one used to steer . That was the old rail roll railway boats, Suffolk and the Norfolk. Where did they go from? They went from er the New Cut, near the Harbourmaster's office, the stations are still there, a lot of on there now. Then you had the City of Rochester, that was another boat, after the war, that used to run from . There used to be three, the Essex, the Suffolk and the Norfolk and the Suffolk had two funnels and the er the Norfolk had one funnel. Where did they go to? And they used to run from here to Harwich, Felixstowe, that used to be their run, all run by the you could you could get a bus oh you could go down go on them boats and you go to Harwich, Felixstowe and then get off at Felixstowe and come on the bus if you wanted to. And these were pleasure? That was all pleasure boats. Pleasure boats, but people could use them for just getting around anywhere? Yes, yeah there used there used to be one go down, another one used to be coming up. Was this every day? Every day. What di what did they charge for a trip ? Oh goodness be about one and ninepence. To go to Harwich? To go to Harwich, yes, they erm, the Salvation Army, once a year that's where they used to go on their for their treat. They used to go from here to Dovercourt. All people that went to the Salvation Army in they they always used to have their treat there, other church always used to go to Felixstowe, that used to cost us ninepence to go to Felixstowe on the train. On the train? Yeah Felixstowe. Why did they bother going? And at one one erm, they was er the other one was the Clements Church Hall used to go to Felixstowe but the er, the other one the Memorial Hall down the bottom of down er that was just off er down there we they couldn't afford to go to Felixstowe, so we went on Cobbles Meadow down here, that's what we had then. When you say Cobbles Meadow down here, where do you mean? Well that's near Cobbles , that's where the, there is a football pitch down the bottom of Cliff Lane. Oh that's down by the dock? That's right there's a that used to be an old meadow, that's all it used to be, course now, they've got a nice football pitch on it now. Is that place now? place. That's their football pitch? That's their football pitch there. Going back to dredging. You talked about the New Cut? Yes, well the New Cut, you see, years ago,they used to be the entrance to the dock. Cos if you g if anybody go down there now they could see where what we call the Pier Head, so ships had to go up there and turn in to the lock gate. Now, the lock gates are right,the river, so they can come up straight in, previous they used to have to go up, up the river there, new cut and then turn into the dock. So there were no lock gates originally ? There were no lock, no lock gates this end. No, that's a long while before my time. Did you have to do any dredging up there? Yeah, we done dredging up there. We just skimmed it off. When did they put the the new The new lock gates? Yeah. Oh goodness knows, I mean that them gates have been renewed and I remember them being renewed, these gates what they got there now. They must have been renewed somewhere about the erm I would say roughly round about nineteen twenty seven, twenty eight and that's been renewed as lock gates, cos they took 'em out and they had a big crane come from Rotterdam to lift them up and er things do now well that's surprising what they do do now. I mean, that I known, these people down here now have the old dredger what they got here now. They they fix it up with wires and they got so far and as the tide rise, cos the ship come up and they take 'em out and take 'em to the dock, take 'em out with a heavy crane. Mm mm. See lot lot of these jobs are done by the tide, say you take a ship now what's been sunk in the river, at low tide they'll put the wires underneath, make them fast to the ships and when the tide when the t t tide rise out come the ship, and they can take it where they want to. How many feet does the tide rise down at this dock? About, roughly round about er twelve feet in the river I in the river? and rise and fall about twelve feet, they tell you in that new book you've got there, the rise and fall. How deep did you used to dredge it out? Well we dredged it, alongside of Cliff Quay, that was twenty eight feet of water at low tide, that was that's what they guarantee, apart from what they call and then two blasts off, two ships was laying that'd be at twenty eight feet, then that would rise ten feet below what they call , cos all in metres now. What's a docksill? A docksill is what that takes. Whatever the tide states at the lock gates, the ri the channel is dredged ten feet below that. ten feet deeper. And who used to work all this out, your father? No, the Harbourmaster used to do that. He'd tell him, he'd get his orders from the office, cos the Deputy Harbourmaster he would go down all the sound he sound in river and see what wanted taken out, then he'd say to my father I'll dredge at so and so belo below docksill and docksill what they used to do they used to, my father what he'd do he'd put stakes on the mud, a short stake and a long stake on account of the tide and he'd, he'd make an imaginary on that stake, then he'd go ashore at Wolverston, phone up what have you got on your docksill, the fella might say it's ten feet, well he'd say right we'll make that twenty feet, so that's er, that's what he used to work on to dredge the river. Used to dredge the channel out, how, how wide did the channel have to be? All different widths. What, why different widths? Well I don't know that's just enough room for a ship to get up. I mean the narrowest part of the river I would say is er where Hall Bridge is, that's the narrowest part. And how wide is that? Well could be about seventy five yards I think, that's to see that And you did this with a three foot wide bucket? Yes. So it must have taken a long while? Yes, surprising, it's surprising how fa far you went ahead. I mean seven years continual dredging for seven years apart from a month they in dock and you were taking out eight hundred tonne every hopper load and some days you were doing five loads and sometimes four loads, was a lot of mud we dumped so much mud out at erm near the Cork Lightship, now you would think they would level theirself off wouldn't you and if they didn't that up. what they have to do, have to go further off now, when they are dredging now they have to go further off into the sea, North Sea Why did it build up? Well cos at er, there weren't enough tide to take it away, I mean you ta you get clay well that's, that's solid and the amount of stuff I was dredge they use and use it, now we're not the only ones got it, they got people from Harwich, people from Felixstowe, they were all dumping out there. That silts up again then doesn't it when you dredged it up? And that silts up and tha cos the you get the silt, well I think it silted up about three feet in about three years, that weren't much and the.. course to come up now. With with dredged up pieces of rocks bigger than that erm machine, bigger than yes, that one yeah. Bigger than the sideboard? Yeah, bigger than that. What's that about three foot by two foot? Yes. And you've dredged up pieces of rock? And we'd dredge 'em up and they and they used to pick 'em up on a bucket, go in there, pick 'em on a bucket and of course instead of them going over, the tumbler, into the harbour, we used to have to put a chain round and 'em off, cos if not they'd have gone over them, tumbler and damaged the chute. Er what sort of just ordinary ? Well they've got them all outside the erm lock gates now. Up on the shore what we dredged up. Do they? Yeah. Outside the lock gates? Outside the lock gates, just as you go into th into near the erm Customs Hut, the Customs place, near the lock gates, all the rock now is what we dredged up years and years ago. I didn't know that, Yeah just sit there. That's still there now, cos they used to take it up there and dump it when it weren't any good. Did you often dredge rock up? Oh goodness yes,wh we if we dredged up, we'd have a say a piece of on deck, we used to land them on deck until we got room, so we came up at Upper Dock. There might be a yachtsman come along and he'd want a mooring, so he'd say to my father, can you fix us up yes, get an old bit of chain and put round, put some wooden wed wedges in tighten 'em up,up, that's his, that's his mooring, he'd take it somewhere in the river, have it dumped, put a buoy on it, that was, that's like his anchor. So that was quite handy then handy, that was a lit lit little bit of did it Perks of the job? Yeah. Certainly had. You spoke earlier about dredging teeth and bones up of animals. Whereabouts were they dredged up? Preston. At Preston. Out of the peat. Now er clay pipes, we used to dredge up and they got dredged up down opposite Pinmill, and they were a long pipe, but cos the, the stem a lot of them had been broken off and wh how they got down there nobody know, I think they used to be like in ballast with the ships, I think. Like there weren't any old boys on there they used to wash 'em out you know and clean them up then smoke 'em. an old clay pipe Did they really? Then you used to be able to buy clay pipes, I don't think you could today. No. But er a lot of 'em used to erm,use used to smoke 'em. They used to come up with the dredging spoil With the dredger yes. We ca we dredged some off erm halfway to the by the near Pinmill. What happened to the bones and the teeth you you collected? The teeth there used to be a man come down about once every three months and er where he came from I don't know. Whether he come from this or not, but erm we were dredging the West Bank cos er the kind of ship we got there then were the big tankers and there weren't enough room for them to swing round, so we had to dredge part of the bank out to make the swinging berth and erm there we dredged a bone up about that size What was that about and four foot ? Yeah that's a big and my and that stuck out the bucket like that, well going over the top we had a hood over the top tumbler to stop the flashing, so my father stopped, thinking that was a bit of wood and were gonna break the top of the tumbler, so he stop and out and scrubbed it and found that was this bone and I think if my memory serve me right that's in the, the Fleet Museum now. You don't know what it came off? No, they reckon that was an elephant, I don't know so the yarn went. all we see all different bits of bone. What else did you get? Lot of sewage but the, the, the, the sewage . That was terrible that was, cos that's where a lot of their stuff was dumped, in the river at one time, cos now that's all taken to sea. Did any of the, the teeth and the bones erm like a deer's like a deer's jaw. A whole jaw? Yeah, a whole jaw. You part of the horn, you dredged them up, cos you used t the only thing we saw taken out, then this old fella used to come down from the Museum or whatever he was and he used to be pleased he'd stay there all day and pick up them all. Did you get many? Good few. Do you know if they still dredge them up these days or Oh I think they do Mm See well th the dredger they get now, the little dredger they got now that should hold about four hundred ton . The mud they put out now there is lucky if they put two hundred ton in and that's only had by grab and course they'd make a hole there, then course that fill up again. That's how they do dredging now. They make the hole? Yeah,wh when the grab go in, you see them, that's making a hole isn't it Mm and course then the sides cave in again and that's the idea they can keep it down level, or try to. So is that a better way of doing it? No the only, I would say personally, I would say the best dredging method is buckets because you can, you can keep a level, you could keep a level with a sucker dredger but not a ground dredger unless like grabbing out the hole. Er er in hole that's like that and you're grabbing out, well you're only making a hole and fill in again but they into that one place don't they like down at the erm, when I was crane driving, we used to have ships coming from Casablanca, with phosphate in and then there be a, another part there was sulphur , then they used to be erm, there's green oar, what we used to call Green oar? Green oar What's that? Well that's a he very heavy stuff, that's a er is er like er erm, oh a heavy little lead. Is it a metal? Er a well I don't know, I feel that th there used to be something in that, that used to burn it up now what they call their top site and when they burned it they took all the acid out of it, and there used to be all yellow stuff come out the chimney and that, when they finished burn that was always red and the Germans used to come after that before the war, Second World War, they used to come after that and they used to reckon they make paintwork but now you done something else different with it and they use I tell you we used to give it the name of green oar or parites parites parites yeah. Do you remember the Second World War at the docks. What it was like? Yes, I was a crane driver then. You moved on from being on the dredger? no I was made off . I moved off the dredger in nineteen thirty two and I was crane driving from nineteen thirty two till after the war. Why did you finish on the dredger? Well cos they finished, they ain't got enough money. So they They, they packed the and sold it. So this was the Dock Commission? Yes, Dock Commission sold the dredger, they sold the hoppers and then last the steam hopper went from here to Harwich and what they done at Harwich they, on the foredeck,see a big hopper, what we call hopper number three, they put a crane on there and use it t as a hopper then and And did they continue dredging? And the dredger went to erm Hull, that's where it went to, to br be broken up. Who did the dredging after that then? Well the . They're a big, they're a big dredging company from London. If they want their dredging done they got them people in which cost a lot more money. That seems a bit odd really that they paid Right, yeah it does, I mean there were,that's how things went. Was that er erm a depressing time at the docks That was, yes at nineteen thirty two? That was because I mean you take now the, the, the Dredging Company what they call the in their funnel they used to have erm a square and in halves that used to be a blue and a yellow. That was our marking, all our ships used to have the blue and er I think blue and yellow in the square, cos they hired these the people who do er you know suppose hire them off now would be the erm the Dutch people cos they're the people what er, they deal in all that type of thing, big dredging, that's how Rotterdam was built By dredging? By dredging. Reclaimed land. Why was times bad in nineteen thirty two for the dock? Pardon? Why were times bad for the dock in nineteen thirty two? Well that's one of those things, like it is today you see, unemployment and new trade coming in and all the rest of that. Why wasn't the trade coming in? People didn't want it, weren't the money about, investments I suppose. So from there you moved on to being, being a crane driver? I went crane driving. Mm mm what did that involve? Well the first crane I drove was a was only at that so I was stuck on one of them and I had to sling me grab all the time and this, this bridge come round and miss the bridge and go over it and rush it down to the hold. Was that difficult? It was difficult cos you only had what they we call the joystick behind me and I used to work that and I used to be turn the crane round one way then the other and he got on the same lever but today they got, cos they got big lovely cranes where they stand there with four levers, four controls they've got and it goes up and down. And the jib goes up and down quite easily. I see what sort of crane did you call them, the new ones? These are luffing cranes. Loving? Luff Luffing? L U F F I N G . They're the modern ones. They're the modern ones, luffing cranes. The old cranes sounded quite dangerous. They were yes, well you could swing them grabs out and come the wire still Were there ever any accidents with them? Oh goodness yes. What I done plenty of damage. You did? I got threatened with the sack once. What did you do? Well I went through a ship's bridge, broke the wheel up top, I did, cos you, at that time, see how things improve all the time, now jib and all that is, that's thirty five feet long. Mine was only twenty feet long, the one I was driving, twenty feet long jib. Now on that twenty feet long, now I'm up about say, you can say anything like about fifteen feet up in the in the air, might be less than that and then you got twenty feet up like that, well then there used to be wire and used to have a big wheel in top, which you couldn't go over the top and with a wire, then I used to have a sling chain, my main hook and that was thirteen foot long and you take th that and on, on working on top of the lorry, see you got to be so careful and there's men working on that lorry as well, course I broke the wheel. What happened? They got a new one, they had another, then they had another idea then, they came round and had erm, had, turned round and said, right they done away with part of the wire and they got another big wheel so you can go right over the top next time, they done away with the big hook, so you could shackle your, your chain on to the wire, then you could go right over the top and then they get the old short chains like that. thirteen foot six, they got little short chains like a lot better. Did you get into trouble for breaking Trouble yeah, trouble I got put off for a fortnight, on the dole, then he, I was on the dole for a week and er he cos at that time you had to appear in front of the erm, what they call the Court of Referees at the Labour Exchange, that was their Committee. You had to appear in front of them, well this, I'd been off for a week and the old Harbourmaster old he sent for me and he said erm, you can start work tomorrow as I . Right I said I'll start tomorrow morning, I go to the Labour this afternoon, Court of Referees. Yes, he said, I should go, and he wouldn't come, cos he ain't got no answer to it you see, anyway I went and I started back the next morning, he called me back. that one alright. Was it usual to be stood off if you did something wrong for the ? Oh goodness, yes for the damage and you had to go in front of the Harbourmaster. This was the Ipswich Dock Commission ? Ipswich Dock Commission coo dear. And they would generally stand you off work for a while, that was your punishment? That's punishment, yeah, they would either do that or there was one driver down there he broke a wheel, that weren't his fault, and he had to pay for it, he had to go in the office like I did once. I had to go in the office every Friday night and I was only earning about two pounds seventeen and six a week and they use and Deputy Harbourmaster, Captain , he say, how much you earned this week he say, three pound, I'm asking you four he say, well they'd take it off you and er you'd be paying it now, takes about six months, and he old Harbourmaster see you about the quay he said. Want you in the office and he'd give it all back again Did he really? he only done, they only done that to learn you a lesson. Yeah. Dear oh dear, cos he weren't allowed, he weren't allowed to stop money, cos that's against the law to pay for damages. Didn't they ever get caught out then? No, no, he daren't say anything cos if you got, you said anything you got the bloody sack. Did you have any union? Pardon? Did you have any union? Oh yeah yeah, I had a union. And didn't, didn't the union question why they were taking money? No well I did, old, old erm what's his name now coo dear there was one old boy he, he, he well he union on this Court of Referees and er cos we got to hear of it. Somebody said, well the Harbourmaster's not coming, I said, right go back to work and that's the time I, that's the time when we had the first baby and erm, that's the first one we lost and anyhow they put me off for a fortnight and erm I went down to, I say go up the Board of Guardians, that was like the D H S S but a little bit lower and I just start to buy this house soon as I said to this bloke, he live in the council house over here this bloke, what was interviewing me where do you live, I say oh you're buying your own house? I said yeah just started, course if I'd have paid money off I said lived on it you see Mm and there be twenty eight shillings a week, that's all I allowed him and because that was even better than labour money and so the day, they, I had to keep that they stopped all me labour, so cos I had the money you see. They stopped that? They stopped it see, so I didn't gain anything out of it, me mates at work they made a collection for me in their way . Did the union act for you at this particular time then? Oh, they did yes oh yes. What I was wondering was when you said that the dock stopped the money for payment for damages, they'd paid it back to you. Didn't the union question why they ? No, no, no none of that, union didn't know we were paying. Because I knew, the fella that done the damage before I did the same thing, he said to me, he say you carry on you'll get it back. And so you never told the union? So I didn't tell the union. How much So he say they'll give it to you back so that's what they done they give me me money back, cos they'd already give him back his, you see. Yeah. Were there ever any strikes at the docks? Oh, goodness yeah but now they, even today, I mean they have a strike and that's settled just like that. Is it? Yes, goodness. Was it not settled quickly before. When you were there? No, no it weren't, not when a general strike in nineteen twenty six, that was a bad one. That's when everybody came out together was it ? Everybody come out, yes. Well were there ever any strikes that have just affected the docks? No, not really. I mean I've known little strikes there last about a couple of days and they all got over it. They always used to give way to 'em. What would, what would they have been over? Anything, more money, that was the main thing, more money. And they wouldn't last that long? No, no, cos you had, see they, these big people they didn't wanna be into it they same getting their money, like and and ,,, they didn't want strikes. They al always used to, all used to finish up down here any rate. Alright give 'em it. Didn't that encourage more strikes though? No it didn't, no the people,th the dockers were pretty reasonable, they were now I will say that dockers pretty reasonable. That's what I say to a lot of people today, they moan about dockers but they're only fighting for their rights. That's all. Mm. I mean lot of my children go over the limit but erm they stir up too much . But in general that was er That was er give and take. give and take, was yes. Cos there's some, they used to be carrying timber down the dock all one length and what already slung, already stacked for 'em and the way it cost, the way it go put the wires on me for sure now and there ain't much to let now. You mention a little while ago. Who were ? They were tim timber merchants. They used to saw timber down for planks and that, they had er place in Hull and a place in Ipswich. that was. Where were they positioned on the dock? They were down at Cliff Quay. They were, that's where is now. Cos , they sold out the , that's all now and I think came from Yarmouth, they used, they used to have a big place at Yarmouth and we came through the other week and er I see their sheds are nearly all empty now, there. What at the Yarmouth? At Yarmouth. But as I say there ain't er, there ain't the timber used to, what there used to be . down at there was one ship down there, that six weeks move. What was, what were you unloading? Timber, that were all loose timber that was during the war, six weeks, six weeks that took to unload that ship. That's a long while isn't it? That was yeah. That always used to be a fortnight to three weeks to unload a ship but this one ship, that was called, I remember that was called the lovely ship and that had been bombed, that had a bomb drop right on the . Course and the bomb gone on the broke the winches and that, and that had gone so far, you know, that timber, that has crushed the timber all, more or less all together. Al all the cargo inside was damaged? Yeah. Where did this happen in the Channel? In the Channel, well, It was coming over I suppose from America Did you have many boats coming in bomb damaged? Yes we had one or two, we had one coal boat come in,damaged. . Oh yeah. . Er Weetabix bag right,. she'll give you a weetabix bag. No it's it's like er everyone joined in Oh. and and I went and I . Why don't you use it then? Because cos I used to take it down there when I used to stay at her house. Weetabix bag. It used to glow . Was it like a rucksack or No it was just one of those . Yeah Mm? What did we do on Friday? we don't get a Friday homework. No but what did we do for science? We did the test. Oh yeah oh no . Me and Lisa have to do it. Why? Cos we weren't here on Friday. Oh. Well I was here but I came during break time. Oh I see. . What have you got in your mouth? Except for the bit.. chewing gum. . Did you watch naked ? Yeah. Oh I saw that one . Did you see him taking those shots every time . I only like the the white ones are horrible . No the ones with the red and the grey. The white and the white grey and red . do they have patterns at the side? . That was horrible. I like the . Did you see him at his party . I know. I said why why would anyone . And playing that pinball game. I wouldn't have enough money to go . And he's just getting them in. Even though. He makes three million dollars a year, just playing basketball and that's about six hundred thousand He gets thirty million dollars from Nike every year. Oh yeah . Maybe I should become a basketball player. Yeah I know but that's a bit good though . It only cost them about five dollars to make . I know. that expensive. Wouldn't you? No. The highest my mum goes is forty pounds cos she doesn't think she should spend a lot of money on a pair of trainers that won't last . Cos the last time she bought me You should get some of them caterpillar boots about eighty, but they'll last for years. What you mean those big thick No not They're better than Doc Marten's . Like Mark's aren't they? Yeah like Mark's . Er they're s I'm getting some of them. I think they're horrible. Er. They go good with baggy jeans. Yeah but you can't lift your foot up . Yeah but can you wear them with tight leggings on? You could do. They'd look stupid. Have you seen s my sister and her big dirty boots. No I don't like boots like that No I don't either I don't like Doc Marten's I like the Doc Marten shoes cos they're hard, that's the only reason why I like them so if you're having a fight . I remember when I was Oh I remember them. Yeah. You used to kick up enough people in our school with them safari boots. play football. my shoes. It was inside Yeah but what library? The Oh . Yeah. Yeah it comes up seven . I know because it always comes up seven. It goes on to the erm . Wembley. No. Dawn lives in Wembley. No she doesn't she lives in Doesn't she? she lives in . Oh yeah. . that woman . Yeah I know but I think no I don't like him cos he's so rude. He's just too rude. Yeah but she no she I know she might be . But but you know she she at least she does actually . They've started to even make jokes now. You know . . for you twenty five P. To anyone else, twenty five P.. Where's that? I don't know. It's a backside. Very funny . why do we need our our our our our our P E kit when we're only putting up tents? We're not we're doing athletics. We're putting up tents. We're doing athletics. I thought we were doing we're putting up tent this week and putting up a six tent next week and then Why were we gonna do that? Me I know how to put up a four tent six tent. So do I. Did you go to . Twice. Twice. Ha everyone else has to share . You're so disgusting. What you on about disgusting. disgusting. You've got dirty minds. it still looks disgusting. the one I've got at home, the first one I ever was wicked. Is it? Yeah. Yeah. What's . Yeah. . Sometimes. I had to sit with him yesterday and Dionne and Christopher moved.. . Are you taping this conversation? . Yes. Are you oh no . I was gonna tell you after that's the microphone See there's the there's the microphone there. Oh you burk. Oh it doesn't matter. cos I swore at Ma I swore at Martin yesterday because he was getting on my nerves like he was saying Did you listen to it yesterday? What? . listening to the mi in the mi if you plug the earphones in there you can hear at the same time what's being recorded. It's wicked. It's loud it's loud. Anyway do you always tape Martin doesn't want to speak when she there because she might tape . And she said well I'm not gonna speak to you for the rest of the week then. Ah. He's only doing it for my own good but I still don't like it. No but her boyfriend pays for it. Her boyfriend. Oh I see. She's taking advantage of him, she only wants him for his money . And the what's his name's Douglas. I don't know, all these men No she's not. What are you lot listening to? You've got one . Let me hear it. Are they not allowed? Aren't they? They're not allowed in school you're not. They are. I could listen to the music on mine you know. Oh Jo?. you know . I couldn't.. Did you hear that? I am not a rude boy, I am very proper. You're very stupid. . What, where, when, why, how?. How how fast can you pick it up? How fast can what? How fast can you pick it up? Whenever I want of course, I can choose when. Really. When your mum and dad are making love. Why are you doing it? So these Norwegian people can find out about talk about different things in different countries. ? Norwegians. Oh yeah. Don't record it on the tape cos no one 's nothing. . Ah? Hello people. Bad breath . Bad breath your walkman . He killed me with the death breath. How do you know all that? I looked it up It's by the Beatles. Haven't you heard it? What is it? Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds. The advert's for taking L S D with an hallucination. Big dragons in the sky. Yeah my dad got . My mother . No, sorry, I need it. There's no school on Monday. Ah. . Mayday . It's bank holiday isn't it. It's bank holiday . It's Mayday bank holiday. It's bank holiday. It's that Mayday bank holiday. I know, I was just testing. Who? I said, shut your lick split. Eh? Eh?. Somebody to love. Somebody to love. It's recording isn't it? Chris? Don't be like that Chris. Oh excuse me. that's how I sneeze . All the plages fly out. Plages plages pages pages. Why are we going out on that one, not on that? Because we feel like it right. Er that pencil case is Sebastian. Why have you got a picture of yo a naked man on your pencil case ? With a shirt open. This is a this is your pencil case isn't it? This is a bumpy pencil case. . I'm surprised yours hasn't dented yet. I'm doing what Miss did to me. Well done Daniel. What are you gonna do? Look at mine it's all bumpy. That looks like a rosette,it. Wait man wait . why don't you do it by yourself? No. Do you want me to hold your hand while you're doing it. one er just one more different er square arrangement of tiles . Why want more? That's what it says on the bleeding sheet. Is it bleeding . Somebody to , somebody to . What happened? Look at Nina's work. balloons and coloured shit. Shit. that coloured shit Fucking hell. What is it? Well it's science. And maths. I'd mark those A B C D E if I were you . swearing that. Oh shut up people swearing in your Irish accents. Always swearing. I have never sweared in my life. we we I had a barbecue yesterday. Is it . Seven? Mhm. You've got to give it back tomorrow. Yeah. Oh Matthew, you've not done that very well then have you? Well no four. You've done four tapes? Well no but I mean I I'm on my third but I mean . What? You know, I should have done four by tomorrow. How are you gonna do the other one then? Tomorrow before I give it back. . last night between England qualify for the World Cup? No I think it means they do cos they haven't been beaten in group C. . I think so. . I think so. Do you want any salad with it Lauren? . Well I'm going to make you some now. Well aren't you busy? at this particular moment in time. Yes please. What do you want? A piece of lettuce ? Yes please . A piece of lettuce and some cucumber? Yeah please. What? spent a hundred and five pounds on food and today spent a hundred and five quid on food? Where? Tesco's. . How was swimming today then? It was alright, not bad. Cold? Yeah. . It wasn't all that bad. At least the pool was clean. Mr Pool? The pool. Oh . Oh is it sometimes dirty then? Cos sometimes it doesn't get cleaned probably cos they're Why? I don't know. Do you want any more salad Matthew? Mm. Yeah I'll have a bit please. What cucumber? Yeah please. Do you want any of that lettuce she's got, cos there's no more now. Take some off there if you do, take what you want. Thanks.. Why are you pouting like that? These aren't for you to say . Pardon? These aren't for you to say. It depends what you want . No I put it on there. is that alright? Thanks. Is that all cut up now? What did you do today at school Lauren? Huh? What subject? Just that just that, cookery? And geography. There's only two people in the class. Two people? For cookery, yeah. Yeah . Oh. Why? Cos it's and everyone else has gone home. Ah. Do they meet you at another class? . Did you ask Pete about the holiday off? Yeah. Yes? Only one class did that. How did you mean? Did they take did enough people like who were supposed to be in, not turn up. No.. Pardon? . . washed. Yeah. Didn't Ian go to school today then? . . No? They're all in A three. Does anybody go who's out of your class apart from the teacher? Oh no all the girls from my class go. . Yeah. Yeah. . . . Yeah. Oh no she didn't she didn't. Denise do you know if Denise went? . Who else what what about what's her name then? Nina. Dark hair. Nina. Natasha. Nati Nina and Natasha. I can't remember what Natasha looks like, has she been to your party? Quite pale skin. Was she at Nina's . Is Nina ? Pardon? Is still out Lauren? Mhm. the sunshine. Mhm. Huh? sit in the sun. Yeah. She's sitting there, what's her name, in the shaft of sunshine through the window. Just lying down. Yeah No . . trouble. His face goes all chubby. . But the sun moved. So did he move with it? No. What did he sit in the cold then? Yeah. . Did you sell that ring? Did you sell that bracelet? Mum knows, just before you get me into trouble . I know. I wasn't trying to get you in trouble. Yes I did. Did you sell the ring? No I haven't asked anyone if they want to buy it. Huh? I haven't asked anyone if they want to buy it. Save give it somebody else. Perhaps. One of these days you'll get over Suzanne. I'm over her. Oh dear. talking. What time is dad coming back? About nine to say that next Tuesday at five o'clock there's a lowdown. Eh? With you on it. With me? Yeah the model of you. How? How what? What model of me ? What the Thinker? The Thinker, that's the lowdown isn't it? No. Oh. That's that's we have maki we have ways of making you think. Oh lowdown then? . . That what? That that metal man that spins his arms and throws lasers. He goes. Where's . He must've gone out. I dunno. . No. Where was I I never saw that. . wearing a red stripy shirt, red and yellow stripy shirt, blue trousers and silver arms. silver man. And he goes like that and throws a laser. He goes. I've never seen that. He goes like this. You never took that form to school. I know. What did daddy make the whole thing? Did daddy make the whole thing? Yeah. I've never seen that thing. Whole lot. never go in the loft do I. I don't remember it at all. It's in the loft. in a minute. Can I have some pudding please? Yeah. Some puddang . No school tomorrow, are you sure? Who said no school tomorrow? That's what you said. When? You said it's off on Wednesdays ad Fridays. I never said any such thing, I said the library was closed on Wednesdays and Fridays. You said it. When did I say that Lauren? When you was talking upstairs. I said the libraries are closed on Wednesdays and Fridays, why don't you come to the library with me today because it's closed on a Wednesday and Friday. we're off school on Monday you know? You're not. Yes we are. You can't be Matthew. It's bank holiday, Mayday. So what are you at school for? We're not at school, that's the point. Oh I know that. Nobody's at school it's a bank holiday. I thought you said we are at school. No no I said we're not. to the May fair. Mm. Can't we? be fit to go it might be nice to go down on Saturday morning come back, Sunday Monday. Would you like to go? Yeah I'd love to. We'll have to ask him tonight how he's gonna be feeling. Well it'd be wonderful to take a friend. Oh I can't do that love I'm sorry. I just can't Lauren. Where anybody gonna sleep and with granddad like the state he's in. . Honestly what difference does it make? Well I think grandma can do without the extra work. Yeah. And granddad doesn't li want people to see him sort of you know when he has to get up and walk about and go to the loo with the door open and I mean it's not so bad for us because we're all related but it's awful for You know I mean I can't imagine Jody or Jessica or Alison or anybody liking it very much. The only thing that you have to do Lauren, if we phone up, if daddy says we can go, you'll have to phone up Victoria tonight. And see if she's busy. I mean I suppose if we were just going for the day it would be alright. Then you could take a friend. If we were going there and back in a day but it wouldn't really be worth it to go to the fair. Because best time to go you know, to the fair is at night. Yeah but we don't know . I do. I'm going to this year.. Is he? Pardon? Is he? Is he what? Going this year? I don't know if any of us are going till daddy gets back. . . Me. I dunno, I'll go by myself. . Pardon? Getting me with mum. I mean how will go round the fair? With Liam or somebody? No. Why not well not much fun going on your own is it? I'll go with you and everyone else. At night. Will you? I don't exactly have a lot of choice . probably not, we're only talking about one night. . We might I don't know if we'll go anyway. It's be nice to go though if we could. an I have another pie please. How many have you had? One. . Thanks. honestly Matthew. It doesn't matter. Of course it matters it's got to be in by tomorrow. Yeah I'll bring it in tomorrow. Do you want a pie Lauren? Want a yoghurt? Want some ice-cream. I don't know what it is, I'll have a look. Pecan and toffee I think. What are these ones? Erm blackcurrant. What are these ones? Erm these are the apricot ones. Have you had enough to eat Lauren? Yes. Pardon? Yes . Stop looking at me like that. Well stop snorting. You try not being able to . Have you finished? Yes. Why have you got that look on your face again? Mm? Well I can't get asthma when he's looking at me like that. Do you want to go away ? I'm not even looking at you. Right go away. Do you want to go away? Yeah I do Are you watching any programmes tonight? No.. Are you?put that plate in the sink please. Why do want it oh do you want it turned off. No I want you to talk. Fine. Is it turned on? Yes it is. Is it really. Oh God. Yes Lauren it is. Oh I didn't realize. Obviously. What? Did you used to play tennis? Yes at school. Are you good at it? Erm no. Why not? . . I don't think I had the right attitude towards it. Probably not. Why what was your attitude towards it? What was your attitude towards it? I didn't really want to do it very well. No I didn't. Cos it was all very keen. Very good, they made you feel like sick. Creepy. Mm. . Right Matthew. It's about five to six. Right. Go upstairs Just in case you can't tell the time. and do your homework. And I'll tell if anybody rings I'll ask them to ring you back at what? Half past six? It'll all be finished by then will it? Erm yeah no. Say seven o'clock anyway. Go on then. Seven o'clock I'll come up and you show me everything that you've done and then I can make you available to people, yeah?. polish off pie. twenty percent of the grade Yeah mate you better take the register downstairs. What, is it up here? I would think so, has anyone done it? No I think he's ill. Sherlock. Oh shit! Oh no! No, if he Oh What now? What do we have to do? Who do we have to No seriously cos listen if 's not here that means we're gonna have Mr taking us. Yeah but that's fine cos setting our homework. Yeah but Mr will make us work in maths. But he does it slower it's only a chosen few that can understand him at that speed. Yeah. Did you hear ? What? Did you hear his joke? No. Really . Typical Mr interesting comment. How to tame your landlord not to The new ideal America. Modern modern weppings weapons cache A down to earth approach to beating the government fund . Yeah it was alright. you know? Yeah. How many sides did you, you wrote like four sides. Yeah How the fuck did you do that? I've only got like two and three quarters No I write huge Yeah. my writing's huge. Did you get any quotes? Four. You got four qu At least one from each book. What! Did you have, did you have the book Sarah? Yes. Hey have you got the money? Okay what time? Two okay? Are you selling a ticket to Ian? What? No I'm gonna sell it to, to erm er Jed. Well Ian just said he was Oh right well, well if he's got the money, yeah. If he oh right. we play the groundhog with the crossbow and as soon as it comes out you just fire a ball of string , yeah, and that way it can't fall down cos you've got it might be better to use like just wait on the edge of like a or something like that the other groundhog just hangs out there, it can't go back down in its hole. You are seriously twisted. I think it'd work. No you are twisted. If it ducks down Did you ever see Caddyshack Yeah. No Caddyshack Two is better Part two, part two's when you've got the Oozes and Yeah that was check out the Angela Davis just walked past. Who's Angela Davis?some civil rights ? Yeah, no she was a black activist man, she had an Afro that makes, I don't know makes Kunta Kinte look bald. Can you get change for the ticket? How much was that? Anyone lend me fifty P? Mark used to do that man, Mark used to shave his eyebrows like here o on top and on, on the sides. shaved it in the middle No no no no no no no no you've got chilli on your finger. Hey Rob do you wanna lend me fifty P? I'll wait till he gets back. Now you're all witnesses incidentally, I owe this man a ticket for the concert, I'll give it to him tomorrow Yeah. so you know I'm not trying to stick you. Erm yeah can I have erm a garlic bread and a Coke please. Anything else? And a Coke. A medium? Yeah. Yes, thanks. Yeah thanks for that catalogue by the way, I'm ordering some of those Have you seen all those books all those bo books written by Ragnar Benson Yeah. Mercenary of Death or something . Do they sell the James Bond you should get that, them Yeah. No I thought, I thought the best one had to be erm home, home and office uses for home ex for high explosive or something stupid like that I mean that was And the worrying thing is it all starts in the margin like it had a through school. Yeah . Josh erm if Chuck gives me the money before like Jed does, yeah, do you mind if I sell the ticket to him cos I've sold one to Ian? No. Okay, and I've got like one other spare so do you wanna keep it for Jed and also ? Yeah. Okay. last night Oh okay. Right, okay. The chances of Jed getting I'll, I'll tell I'll get the money off Jed tonight Yeah. and give it to you tomorrow. Okay I'll tell Chuck I've sold it. is it sold out? Er no it won't be sold out. It's not? No cos I mean you, Chuck can get it at the Hammersmith Palais. Right. I'll give him the phone number if he wants. If he just phones them up tonight he can get a ticket. Yeah. How was your meeting? Yeah. is such a power crazed bastard nowadays, really pisses me off. I'll see you later, yeah. Not too well. might be interested but Who ? Ian. Oh. I tried to sell it to Ian What kind of jacket is it? Does it have anything on it? No it's just black it's not Josh what's this? it's not one of those fucking motorcycle . It's been in the family for years Special commemorative Vietnam bullet holes. Yeah Rob yeah Rob you know you should have done taken like a hair out of your head, placed it in there before you and pulled it out. Erm I dunno, the thing is our prom, yeah, is the day before so like I'm gonna be pretty fucked erm two, a couple of my friends who are coming, they've got they're like in the middle of the ex their exams like erm I know my one friend's driving there but he's going from St John's Wood, thanks, erm we might be able to pick you up, I'm not sure, it depends what's happening or you might go with Josh, like we'll meet outside probably. We should arrange to meet but we'll like It starts at seven so What time does it finish? It says it finishes at midnight but erm I've a feeling piss off like like about eleven. Oi Rob! Have you seen yet? Have you seen it? Oh yeah you've seen it. I wanna see the new one with Bridget Fonda Bridget Fonda It's I wanna see it to see how they've screwed it up. Yeah. Cos you know they trashed it. I've seen, I've seen a clip Yeah. he goes into ah McDonald's Yeah . he's like, like gonna have breakfast and he's like, breakfast every Thursday it's like eleven thirty two and he's like don't worry people, don't worry He lives in Majorca like, really close to my house Who, Michael Douglas? he had glasses and I didn't realize, everyone was going with Sharon Stone? Yeah. She's not that, I mean she's such a shit actress! said it was the most , said it was worse than Body of Evidence. There was one film which she And that's saying something. which she did which is so bad erm I mean really, she did, about one of the first films she did, not, you know before Total Recall Some budget porno movie. No no it's not Oh Year of the Gun? No anyway she's trapped in this apartment and like I wanna see Boxing Helena Yeah. that's supposed to be really good. Yeah. It's done by Je erm David as well. This guy, yeah, he falls in love with this woman, takes her to his apartment and slowly, he's a surgeon and he slowly amputates all her arms and legs and keeps her in a box. she has no use for her legs Oh. Oh okay, whatever. I told you man, it's for this university study. It's like an English, it's on Eng English slang and like Are you serious? Yeah I'm serious You sure it wasn't ? assassination attempt Shoot me in the mouth. Get the guns! What do you think he's doing with that? What? Recording us speaking English,can learn to speak English again. Oh yeah . That's the plot. the secret's out. Turn it on. It is. It's on? Jonathan's a dancing queen Yeah,dickhead. Jonathan's a queen, period. Yeah your mum's a queen. trembling when he made that speech when he remember when he, remember when you, you weren't there, no you weren't there he was shaking like a leaf. Oh, it's your physics teacher. Yeah when are you gonna see Trespass? No you should man, it's, it's, seriously man they're m it's so funny. Have you seen , have you seen ? Oh you said you could get me juice. I had it on video anyway Yeah I know but your, your uncle w w you s erm whichever movie did you say you could get, like he's the man or something? Oh yeah, I wanna see that. Eh? I wanna see that. Have you seen erm ? Yes, that's rubbish. Isn't it? have you seen that? That was funny. That was a funny film. That one guy that one black guy, it's cos I'm black isn't it? You know, the way he's always going round like Like, is it cos I'm black isn't it? It's cos I'm black. rings his friend's house, he opens the door and he's got like shaving cr shaving foam on his face like ah he's white, he's white! Oh yeah and he I still haven't seen it. I've got it on video. will you lend it to me? If you come to Majorca, yeah. Oh it's in Majorca. Oh not much much good it's doing there. My mum Does she? What, gonna take your sister with her and leave her there is she? Is your sister leaving the school? Why? Or when, rather. Don't you ever eat the skin Rob? Yeah I'm eating it, I'm just scraping Oh right. Class in ten minutes. What? Got fucking chemistry in two m in ten minutes such a big chemistry test tomorrow, like eat mud or something. I always used to eat paper man, paper you could eat. Did you see that film about ants? Them, no Th yeah Them. It was like on Channel Four about two weeks Yeah. that was one freaky fucking movie. When they took over the, the mind of that man and that woman They had that erm oh shit that was good! they, they Yeah and they made the shapes that ants could Yeah. that was damned strange! What about Scanners? Oh my God Yeah, Scanners Oh! Yeah,that is the best movie. Formal formaldehyde face. That is such a cool movie. sunglasses Yeah. Like John Carpenter's such, have you seen erm his other, any of his other films like Assault on Precinct Thirteen? That was brilliant, that was That is such a good, and have you seen the comedy he made, Dark Star? That is so fucking funny man, it's this real B mo B John Carpenter. He like does all his own mu he does all his own music as well I think so. Dark Star man, that, that had to be the funniest movie I ever saw, I saw it when I was about ten. Why was it so funny? Oh because it's so shittily, I mean it's so obviously a B movie, the alien they find, yeah, is a beach ball with feet and that's this alien it's a beach ball with feet that runs around the place. He kills it eventually, he shoots it with this like hypodermic pistol to try to put it to sleep and it just explodes! It's just so dumb, I mean the whole movie is like, it's in the nineteen seventies, yeah, and like they've all got these big fucking boobs and they're stuck out in space it's fucking odd. It's like that, I hate it when they fucking make cartoons about all kinds of shit like you know Rambo? And then they make cartoons about it like you know Rambo, they made cartoons out of Rambo like what the fuck! Yeah I remember those. What's that film this guy goes round and he's re really pissed off and he goes into this er he goes into yeah, Gotta go back to school. We have an hour. Oh. Fuck you I've gotta back for chemistry. Yeah er Shit, shit, is that good English? Shit. my sister . Yeah she's ugly. all my work this weekend. Did you do extended essay notes? Erm any English? Have you No. I've done forty and twenty of geography Joe have you got your extended essay notes there? Yeah. Can I see them? I wanna see how many you've done. Did you actually do a whole fifty? She'll kill you That's fine. What? She said so. Oh. That's what I like about you Joe, your notes. You haven't done that many. Katy Eh? Katy What? Erm yeah. Katy stop it doesn't befit you. Yeah you, you call that maths ! This is her homework yeah? Yeah . Move up. No seriously you have to move up one, thank you. What the hell! No well he couldn't do it either. Yeah that's the one. What, what page is this? Well given any Why? because he, Mr What are you, what are you doing? Screw that. No! No God! Joseph Joe did you do thirteen, Joe did you do thirteen C? Did I do thirteen C on which one? Er er the whole fucking You've got my answers there, why don't you look at them? Well let's see what thirteen C was. Yeah this is thirteen C. Is it? Oh okay. Oh shit let's go downstairs and do it Ah. Stop whingeing. Ah. Eight thirty tonight we're either committing suicide or murder, one of the two. Yeah. No discussing our future prospects together. Oh I know what you're talking about. I know what you mean. The word cabin fever is a word that jumps to my mind at the moment. The what? Cabin fever? Cabin? You know? Like when you're locked in a room with someone for five days and you wanna kill them after a while. Yeah. had to run round the building Cabin fever. Oh what you've just been hanging around too much. Ah! I'm just, all I can say is I'm, I'm but I'm glad I went to school, okay? I'm fucking I'm just happy to be here right now. What? Is she in there? No I can't see her. Incidentally don't ever try Femidom it's like shagging a crisp packet or a freezer bag. A serious waste of time. Have you ever tried one of those Femidoms No I haven't . They're useless. It's like shagging a fucking crisp bag I'm telling you. And they rustle. Is that times? Yeah, he's done that wrong, you don't do it like that. How do you do it? Well I think you do it like that but, oh no maybe you do do it like this. Oh. But how come you've got a negative ? No my answers are fucked Surely this should be a negative cos there's one negative. What? Yeah I know so I think it's negative so that negative five's the answer but anyway music today. Yeah they busk in Trafalgar in er Leicester Square. are you all familiar with the ? Yeah. Yeah. but er I don't know if you can get this information to er to your fellow students but it really concerns the graduation rehearsal which takes place on er Friday erm on Friday we're going out er as a group on Friday afternoon at one fifteen to Church House er to run through the rehearsal procedure er the graduation it's important that on that day that you bring along your robes bring your robes with you and bring your, bring them along, they should be pressed so that you can er wear them er the you should also please so dress nicely on that day and wear a tie and bring a tie with you graduation? Eh? Is your dad coming to graduation? No but bring a tie with you Oh is she? a jacket and tie and er the, the robe and Those of you in the twelfth grade who are not graduating er we'd also like you to be so come dressed nicely as well erm Is it this Friday? This Friday yeah, and we're leaving at one fifteen, there's a coach er those of you in the maths exam could start making your way over to room fifty six Good luck . I dunno. I tell you one thing I'm slightly starting to regret inviting my girlfriend to come and stay with me for three weeks in France. No but I like her and everything but holy shit, I really I do need some time to go to school and like be by myself. Do you know what I mean? It's kind of fucking important. What is this? Saw Nigel Sat on Saturday night. Do you have four B? No er would those of you who are left Er why? You don't have to, no you don't have to stop any more not any more you can fly direct. You can fly direct now the new seven four seven four hundreds can do it in one go. I dunno, twenty two hours in a plane? coming back's I, I just have er I just have to drink a lot that's you know put me in first class and full of drink Do you? How come? Your dad come? Does he fly, does he fly back? lazy by the way. M squared minus X squared Yeah. Yeah. Yeah I know that's my secret I'm proud of it. What's this about John being lazy? Who else works there? Alan Alan? Who's Alan? Oh Er oh yeah. No he's Didn't Rob get a job there or something? Who? Rob. No. gets his cheque today I have to pick it up for him. I dunno, I dunno how much it Why didn't you give Rob a job? what can Rob do? You know. Steal money? Scare, yeah exactly. Scare customers . Scare the customers. Who? Rob . Brian you got a new vice? Hey Brian do you know what happened? You know the er head security guy? Yeah. On Sunday, yeah Yeah. On Sunday, yeah, he got in, I don't know what happened I wasn't there but and supposedly, yeah, he met, did you see Julie, one of the waitresses have you seen her, yeah? Upstairs? Yeah. And she ? Yeah Yeah. okay, supposedly she claims that he hit her and winded her and she screamed after she was winded, yeah, which is an impossibility anyway but that's okay but he was arrested and sacked so we have to have a bouncer Ooh! Well I don't know but the other three, yeah, are hired by the so I dunno. I'll bounce for you, You wanna be a bouncer, yeah? keep there on the door, that'll scare them that'll stop unwanted people coming in. Sit there going ooh ooh ooh ah ah ah No we only have one Italian boy working there. Not for very much longer . I don't understand why all these guys stop going out with you and shortly afterwards get fired from , kind of funny that ha? No he hasn't been fired, he's quitting. Oh. Why? Cos he, well he's not quitting he's taking a break Mm. And er Michael Jackson that's male singer of the year, Michael Jackson, Michael Jackson? What was this? What, what was this? The music awards last night. Oh . My dad was there. See now here it's possible ?eight fifty C S I B M W. Fuck basketball. Who the fuck does he think he is, Bill Lambear No but I saw the new X R two five O. Oh. What are you talking about basketball anyway, who the fuck does he think he is, Bill Lambear or Charles Barclay? Right I'll be back in a second. But Spitting Image they were making fun of them and they had a Brian do you think he's trying to look like, you know Bill Lambear in America? Yeah Yeah, that guy looks like a freak. Bill Lambear the basketball player? Yeah. I mean he really is a cool guy, No Charles Barclay's better. Well that's why women's basketball's better than guys No way! women have better shots. with Michael Douglas? Yeah, yeah. Yeah have you seen when he blows up that guy ? I saw Loaded Weapon. Yeah, is that good? Have you seen Loaded Weapon? I haven't seen it yet. Oh it's, I mean I expected one scene is really good, really obviously they are taking the piss out of Yeah You know ? Yeah This guy's in the bathroom or having a piss Yeah and they blow him up, yeah. this guy's here up here, up here where are you, where are you, up here, up here what's up, I'm taking a shit. sorry man, close the door and get out a friend of mine lives in erm Beirut a friend of mine, a friend of mine lives in Beirut like erm apparently now though it's like, I mean Beirut, parts of Beirut are getting like Beverley Hills No but like the all they do is they keep like, you know, they keep a gun in their car. No apparently, yeah,my dad used to carry a gun around so like they'd go, they'd go out to like a restaurant, yeah ? my dad like in South Africa my dad was telling me, when they went out at night, yeah, like if they were going to a restaurant he'd take a kni he'd take his gun with him and keep, it's fucking odd man like my dad walking around with a nine millimetre strapped to his Yeah, you can here as well can't you? Diplomatic immunity. are useless fucking rustle like a crisp packet and they, they're just shit. they just make you feel so inadequate. No they're just shit Shit, it really,fifteen quid a pack, they're useless. What am I supposed to do with these pens? Why? Cos they paid for their . It's a publicity stunt by Patricia Oh yes,get a pen. I get one. But you only get it if you paid for your Yeah. Yeah I have, I've even got the receipt to prove it. I You never gave me a receipt. There's probably a list in there of the ones you're supposed to give them to. This is to make, this is a, I mean Alright can I have one? One two three now this is a bit silly, oh there's a pen for me, thank you very much. Why is my name not on there? There'd better be my name down. Don't ask me. That's it, I'm I'm on there. I'm gonna go and shoot that woman cos I gave my cheque to the office. I gave my cheque to her personally. Well it maybe, you see I've had this, this has been hanging around for a month Oh okay then that's alright. if you only gave it recently No I gave my cheque three weeks ago. Well all I know is this is all I've got here. Can I have a pen anyway? No, certainly not. Oh go on. Give that to will you? Can I just go and shout at the office please? No. Oh go on. Go down at break. What does it say on it? It says absolute south bank I'm absolutely really pissed o I'm incredibly pissed off. You could at least take the E off, yeah. I, well that was where it came from I mean cos we were all sitting there and I said well why don't we call it it was, it was that or Bailey's Irish Cream and absolute we could get away with. So why is there an E on it? It's just that, oops! Time It's just we can't, we can't have we can't have obvious alcohol absolute on the rocks Absolutely rocking, you should just say absolutely rocking. Straight up. You will find there's so many little, nasty little things that you manage to sneak in there doesn't know about. What like on and on a on and on and on? Like the year book When does come in? Next week? Next week. If I on and on and on and on and on as a border, now she thinks that's about the washing machine ad you know the Ariston washing ad, on and on. It's not, it's still convinced it's about a washing machine . Well yes I mean I see her point. You're n you're not gonna think it's her unless you know her. A lot of people will probably relate it to that commercial I think, or they'll think of the little bunny rabbits in Duracell, that's what I thought Yeah. when you said it. I didn't think that Patricia It's the Energiser one, you know that? You know those commercials are the same, it's the Energiser one. Except En Energiser are made by yeah anyway. Still going. on and on. Right we might as well get on with something. Let's get on with something. Let's not. Let's I can't print anything for you. Why? Why? Because the machine's been down since last Thursday. Sunday's the last time Joseph was seen in school. So you can do the following two questions for me please. Ooh! Ah. What is A little bit of revision on an old topic. Oh! A topic which In biology, yeah, they had differentiation but I didn't think it was right so I put diffiation down instead . differentiation in biology? I dunno, it's to do with sperm and there's like Don't you mean ? No. What? Jonathan, you're extremely bad at getting words right. Which sys which er political party supports proportional representation? Shut up. Labour likes proportional representation . No they don't. Yes they do. No they don't. Yes they do. No they don't. Oh whatever. this question, stop arguing children please. In each of the following what? What does it say after ? Oh! You're not as dumb as you look . Sorry? That actually looks more like a W R L curd, that's what it looks like, it looks like curd. You said it, yeah. Curd . Can anyone see my water jug around here? There should be a bottle of is it out on the windowsill or something? Have you finished these er Jonathan? I can't read your handwriting. Yeah yeah yeah. times X plus four Oh shit I thought that was a two. That's an X then. So have I . What's that thing with like all the Us and Vs and Tha that's it, it's D, it's V D plus U D V by the X. No no, no hang on. the answer, I really cannot be fucked. Here we go. came out that came out Joe. Which? I still haven't forgiven you for bloody book antics of a Okay so What was it? John Updike? Danny didn't know it. you're a little wanker Jonathan. Danny, Danny didn't even know the effect physics you didn't get it. Here it is. How do you do the first one, yeah? Did you ever see Beavis and Butthead in America? Did you see, can you get Beavis and Butthead have you ever seen that? Beavis and Butthead next year. it's like a cartoon have you seen it? I'm going to tell you a little bit this morning about South East Arts and it's support for the visual arts in the South East here. South East Arts is one of fourteen publicly funded regional arts associations in England and Wales, whose brief is to stimulate and extend the practice, understanding and enjoyment of the arts among the people of the region. Now, in our case that means Kent, Surrey and East Sussex. We seek to achieve this in three ways: by offering specialist advice and information on all aspects of the arts; by initiating certain schemes, projects and promotions of our own; and by subsidizing professional arts activity and arts organizations. And to put this activity into some sort of financial context, we have to help us a budget of roughly half a million pounds. That's mostly Central Government money, but partly Local Authority money, of which, to put my talk into perspective, some forty-eight thousand is available for subsidizing the visual arts in the region. It's this allocation that I'm responsible for administration, as Visual Arts Officer, with the assistance of an unpaid advisory panel of specialists, and subject to the approval of an Executive Committee which represents the public we exist to serve. Now, our visual arts policy could be summed up as follows: It's our main concern to bring about a social financial climate more conducive to the health of the visual arts than that which we find ourselves in at present. That means working to change things for the better. That in turn means concentrating our limited resources on fewer and carefully selected targets where we can, over the years, bring about change and effect medium and long-term and far-reaching improvements, as opposed to merely and inadequately propping up the status quo. Hence, the emphasis of our work which, broadly speaking, is concerned with helping either organizations, by which I mean galleries and arts centres, or individuals, in other words artists, craftsmen, photographers, and is increasingly directed to the former in the belief that if we can help them, these centres and galleries, towards adequate levels of staffing and expertise, they in their turn, and much less artificially than we, will be able to help the individual artist. With regard to galleries, then, we aim to support a number of strategically placed centres in, say, Brighton, Farnham, Canterbury, Folkestone, St. Leonards and Eastbourne, sufficiently for them, each doing their own thing, in due course to be able to service a touring exhibition network, made up of themselves and the other regional galleries, be able to offer the artist whose work they exhibit or promote a fair deal — that means paying them for their transport, insurance, publicity costs and perhaps a fee for exhibiting their work in public— and finally to organize appropriate marketing and education back-up to their own exhibitions programmes, which both pulls people in to the gallery and reaches out to them in, for example , schools and industry. Now, meantime, until this happy state of affairs has been reached and we can devolve these responsibilities, we continue to support individual artists directly ourselves, through a variety of schemes, all of which I like to think relate to making more of them accessible to the public. These schemes, then, can be summarized under the following heads: we run residency and award schemes, we run grants to artists and craftsmen and photographers, we run an artists in school scheme, which involves placement of and artist for two weeks or so in a local secondary school, we offer payments to artists for exhibiting in certain galleries, something akin to the public lending right, we also provide assistance for the purchase and commissioning of contemporary work, and finally we run an artists' register, which is a slide register of work of artists within the region, which is accessible to anyone who wants to come along and look at it, whether they are organizing an exhibition or thinking of commissioning a piece for their own living rooms, or perhaps a piece for their town hall or public library or whatever. Now, that's more or less as far as I've got, I mean I can go on. Making Good — A New Craft Exhibition. Making Good is an exhibition with a difference. The majority of the works in the show are so new that some were only delivered the day before the exhibition started. It is the first major craft exhibition that South East Arts, your regional arts association, has organized. The concept of the show is slightly different. The organizers have asked exhibitors to keep photographs, drawings, source materials, etc. and these will be on view as part of the exhibition. It is hoped that the inclusion of these items will give you, the public, the opportunity to understand why and how craftsmen create such beautiful and, in some cases, controversial items. Not all crafts are represented, but all the exhibitors have been carefully chosen by a very experienced selection committee, including the art critic of the Financial Times. Each craftsman was commissioned to produce one or more works especially for the exhibition, hence the tight schedule. All the exhibitors grasped the opportunity of the commission to push forward the boundaries of their craft. The results are very interesting. The crafts on show include pottery, embroidery, furniture making, book binding, weaving and silversmithing, a very wide range of crafts which we hope you will take the opportunity of seeing. If you live in Canterbury, Brighton, Farnham, Southampton or Portsmouth, the exhibition will be coming your way. Listen to your local radio for Making Good details. I've mentioned South East Arts as the organizers of Making Good. Hopefully you know something about this organization, or at least have heard the name. South East Arts tries to bring you the most interesting events in music, drama, literature and the visual arts. If you see the words South East Arts linked to an event in your area, there will be something of interest for you and your family. Why not start with visiting the Making Good Exhibition and you may find there are many more events of interest to you. If you want to know more, write to South East Arts, Crescent Road, Tunbridge Wells, or if you are particularly interested in crafts, either as professional craftsman, or as a member of the general public, contact me, Frances Smith, at Tunbridge Wells four one double six. This time of the year is alive with nostalgia. At New Year television and newspapers are concentrating efforts on identifying the most important, or even the looniest events of the past year. Not so at South East Arts. From our tiny office in Tunbridge Wells, Kent, the officers, advisers and executive committee members have been using the Christmas weeks to look forward. To help ourselves we have not ignored the nostalgia trend, however, for we've been glancing back at nineteen eighty two to guess what we think will be the most significant arts ideas for nineteen eighty three. Using a system which consults all the staff and many advisers from all over Kent, Surrey and East Sussex, we have nominated five prize winners in very special competition which seeks to predict next year's most important people and places. In nineteen eighty two we have been very lucky to see an amazing patchwork of achievement, from major international exhibitions and international festivals' successes to local community enterprise. And nineteen eighty two may serve as a suitable reminder for us as we seek to identify those likely to make the most significant contributions in the future. What did we have in nineteen eighty two? Well, the Cliffhanger Theatre Company was the success of Edinburgh Festival. Channel Theatre conducted its first national tour with the three productions Sleuth, Entertainer and Dracula. A new director was appointed for the Epsom Theatre and we had agreement on the designs at last for the new Canterbury Theatre. A new gallery was opened in Margate, and nineteen eighty two was our first full year of the Polytechnic Film and T V Workshop in Brighton. Kent Opera's spectacular ‘Beggar's Opera’ opened at Tunbridge Wells, and the Picasso Exhibition highlighted the Brighton Festival. Dartford Theatre opened and ‘Barefoot Video’ has it's first year of full-time professional worker. The Rochester on Medway Dickens' Festival expanded significantly in this year, and Theatre Link, that collaborative effort between Guildford, Leatherhead and Farnham, did its first tour. The Kent Literature Festival expanded once more in nineteen eighty two/three and four new young musicians were appointed in an especially fine nineteen eighty two Young Musician of the Year competition. Hazel Kirkham undertook the Brighton survey of the arts, and the Old Market Arts Centre, so often a focal point of controversy in Hove, had a full report completed by Hove Borough Council and South East Arts. The Bletchingly Adult Education Centre saw visits from Kent Opera and Paul Patterson, and the Tunbridge Wells Trinity Centre had its first full season of live music and theatre. Glyndebourne's ‘Love of Three Oranges’ was one of the most spectacular productions they undertook in nineteen eighty two, and the Farnham Maltings' biggest production of the year was probably their version of the Royal Shakespeare Company's ‘Piaff'. We had two gatherings of businessmen in Brighton and London, attended by the Minister for the Arts, and a new director was appointed for the Lewes All Saints Community Arts Centre. All these and many more will be considered for awards in the following categories: Most impressive contribution by a major organization in the South East, most interesting contribution by a local organization in the South East, and most significant presentation in nineteen eighty two We have two further categories: the most imaginative idea developed in nineteen eighty two and the most promising project for nineteen eighty three. Follow South East Arts and you will be able to help judge these competitions next year, and if you're enterprising enough yourself in nineteen eighty three, you may even qualify for an award yourself. After my first six months as Director of South East Arts, I've prepared an interim report with five main topics, which I wish to put forward for public consideration, and if anybody has any comments to make perhaps they'd let me know. The first of these points is to do with venue and Arts Centre development. I would like to encourage the association to build upon the initiatives already begun by the Association's touring programme. I suggest encouraging a limited number of effectively managed centres, selected in part on a geographical basis, and in part for their value and interest to more than one of the association's panels. A programme of this kind will be designed to operate within a national Arts Centre development programme, which is at present being discussed within the Arts Council. The second point is to do with major client support services. Throughout the region and important client group exists, whose basic funding is provided by the Arts Council and their local authorities. The association might encourage the development of shared publicity and marketing to ensure as much effective publicity and ticket sales promotion as it is possible to provide, both for those projects and those which we regard and cherish as our own. Thirdly, the devolution of South East Arts schemes. Conscious of the increasing demands in terms of time and routine administration, the concept encourages South East Arts towards passing over responsibility for existing South East Arts schemes to stable and well managed clients for their future operation and management within funds agreed between us. Fourthly, local authority funding consolidation. Already appreciative of the association's practice of encouraging, where appropriate, joint funding and partnership in the support of all South East Arts clients, the association still needs to secure the full membership of all local authorities in the South East area and develop a clear, joint strategy on the development of the arts for each of the three county areas. And finally a Medway focus. Consideration of funding in relation to population distribution and the needs of the region seems to indicate a low and decreasing ratio of support from South East Arts to those areas of North Kent which can generally recognized as the Medway area. A re-evaluation of our current and potential interests in the area would help re-balance our contributions in geographical terms, and it just might introduce us to some useful new artistic interests and commercial concerns. This last autumn South East Arts tried and experiment in Brighton and organized a series of five so-called fringe theatrical productions at the Pavilion Theatre over a period of two months. Each production played for two successive nights, with the co-operation and active encouragement of Brighton Borough Council it is hoped to extend the use of the Pavilion Theatre as a regular venue to provide an opportunity of seeing wide-ranging drama of a kind not otherwise available in Brighton. For example, the first season included shows suitable for all the family, such as Medieval Players and Trestle Theatre, as well as some controversial productions. About one of these ‘The Vandalist’ which was presented by ACT Theatre Company and which is an adaptation of , one reviewer in a national paper said that in a festival abroad it would be the talk of the town. The theatre already houses ‘The Fringe’ during the Brighton Festival and attracts large audiences then. At other times professional companies play there with varying fortunes, except for Cliffhanger, which is probably Brighton's most successful company, they always turn people away because they can't squeeze in any more. South East Arts will continue its season at The Pavilion Theatre early in the New Year. There will be companies from the Evonana Theatre at Guildford and the Redgrave Theatre at Farnham, with David Mercer's last play and Pinter's ‘Betrayal’ which was first seen at The National Theatre. And to round off the season, just before the Festival, the inimitable and quite unrivalled Moving Picture Mime Show. If you're interested is this type of theatre and if you wish to see it regularly in the centre of Brighton, come and see these shows. If you want any more information, contact me, Bob Henry, at South East Arts, on Tunbridge Wells four one treble six. Suitcase Circus will be visiting Brighton this summer, with their own unique brand of circus. Founded by Reg Bolton in nineteen seventy six, he has since established a number of children's circus groups throughout the country. In nineteen seventy four, Reg spent some time at the National Circus School in Paris, where he learnt, amongst other things, that the life of a circus performer was not for him. However, he was told that the best use of his talents was with children's work. His group, composed of professional circus performers, approaches each project in a manner whereby all members of the community are involved. During the week the company work with children and adults on various aspects of juggling, stilt-walking, clowning, unicycling, face painting, and the week culminates in a street parade and a performance in which all take part illustrating their new found skills. During the weeks before the event local playschemes, youth clubs and other community organizations have been preparing costumes and props in anticipation of the visit. Funded by Brighton Borough Council, Brighton Trades Council and South East Arts, the even is guaranteed to be colourful and lively event. All are welcome. It takes place at the Brighton Community Association on August the fourteenth to August the twenty fifth. Further details are available from South East Arts. Insert one row and copy and then insert another row and copy. You mean insert Insert formulae? That's right. Over on the other side, erm you're given a range name. You got a formula. You see a range name, erm, average exchange let's say. So you same address divided by average exchange. If you copy that formula down to the cell below, what would you see? Erm. Then whatever cell was below average exchange. Erm, it would jump down one, unless you adding That cell address divided by average exchange. The cell below. You copy it down . It down erm, it would come down a different, the wrong figure. So let's, suppose you had C twenty six divided by average exchange. Copy it down you see. E three divided by average exchange. That's getting on to the right . Yes, not an absolute No. Okay, over to the other side. Erm,erm how do you check whether ho how do you check how much, how big your disk is? What do you type precisely? C H two B S blank Right. Okay. How do you find out what memory you've got? To develop into your spreadsheet? Sorry? Where's your systems ? Data Data status? No. Changed your mind on that. Right. Check disk. No, no that's on the disk. It's, you go into status Another unanimous What the unanimous decision of the team? Worksheet status. Worksheet status. Are you happy with that? Yeah. Happy with that? Yeah. Happy with that? Yeah, Yeah, I'll give you that. Don't put you off. Right, erm how does memory get used in One Two Three, Release Two? Rapidly. It, it may be true, not the answer we need. Is it column blocks? Column blocks. Okay. Bit more. One What's the key thing about memory, how it's used? It uses up all the gaps in between the gaps. The gaps in between. That's what I was after. Right. Okay, how does Release Three and want to check the Windows differ? It doesn't use the gap it doesn't use up the gaps between erm the distance working Big distances. What defines, what's a big distance? That's right, is it? When he fills up the gaps within the five hundred and twelve row blocks he gets. Okay. Er, why can't you use all of your expanded memory? Yeah. out the room. I think it's because it can't address it. I went out next. No, you were all in here at the time. on the phone Oh, were you? Oh, you might have been I but most of you were certainly here. Got as far as you could only use five hundred and forty odd or something was it Saying you could probably only use practically only five hundred K Why? Because your main memory won't take all the expanded memory anyway. Will it? It will only expand, take something Er, I'm not with you, sorry? I'll pass it across. Could you condense some Yes. When your conventional memory runs up, you can't put more into expanded memory. What,wh wh feeling slightly bigger, you get three and a half, but er what goes into conven what goes into conventional memory? What uses up the conventional memory? spreadsheet Well, I can't deny that. like erm,all the extras. The additional things. Er, it wasn't what I was after. certain things to go Yes. Okay. Yes Like formulae and things So what doesn't go into expanded memory, then? Data. It is the actual text the input bit That's supposed to go into the expanded memory. Oh. What did I say, doesn't go into expanded memory? Numbers. Well Labels. It's partly true, but Labels. No. No, I think you're on the wrong track. Is your conventional memory? What does, what what only goes into conventional memory not into expanded? Erm, I'd better tell you. It's the sixteen bytes block. That's the minimum amount of memory that gets used. That is used solely out of conventional. I'll give you half, anyway. Right, er,same again. Erm. If you find yourself running out of memory, and you're working on a spreadsheet for a while, what should you do? Save it and retrieve it. Save it and retrieve it, that's the one, yes. Right, why's that? The other side. . Why should, what does it do, if you save and retrieve? Or what I want to know is but the question is You take anything that you've in that you've erased on it and then put it back in. Yes, when you erase something, it doesn't free up the memory straight away. Okay. Erm, when you erm, erase a cell, with range erase. What do you get rid of? Everything. Just, just typing with any erm You get rid of the format. You get rid of when you do range erase. No, you don't, no you don't. Range erase, you just get rid of what's in the cell. You don't get rid of the format. memory in. Right. Yes, that's right. You don't get rid of the format. Okay, fine very generous there. Er, erm, right. How do you get rid of, what's the best, what did I say was the best way of getting rid of everything out of the cell? Copy it all in to Blank cell. Copy a blank cell. That's blank in what way is it blank? no formula No, no formula and what else is not Not protected. No protect. No labels. No. No protect, is that what you mean? Whatever. top there. There's no what at the top? No Us or No U that be unprotect. Right, and no format. Right, okay. I'll give you that. Erm. How do you get rid of deadwood? You chop What's that? I'll take a guess at you want and then it deadwood exact part of the spreadsheet, Can do. That's one way. How, exactly do you do the extract? Or what menu options do you choose? slash range. So the other question enter extract. File name extract it all in one go. file name Formulae or Oh, values or formula. Values Which of the two? Well, formulae will take the labels and everything. Values will just take the figures. There's no formulae I know that So which one you want then? Formula. Formula. Right. Okey-doke. Alright, I'll give you that. That's one way of doing it. Er, what's an another way. Getting rid of deadwood? Clearing columns and rows. If you've done a diagonal. You should be able to clear all columns the rows to the right of your Oh, right, erase Coming down, yeah all those different ranges Yeah. would you say? Right. Okey-dokey. Erm, I can't think of any questions there. Er, how can you have eight K more memory than most of you seem to have? rather than print the erm Yeah. Without getting the print wrong. How do you One Two Three, Right, that's it. Good. Right. Okey-doke. That's the end of the competition. Picked the right one on that one as well, didn't I? Most of them were wrong on this one Right. I missed some questions out Right. Linking files, copying data from one file to another in various ways. Erm so, there's various methods, we'll go into specific methods in a minute, but er, when you are passing data from one file to another, you ought to use passing and receiving areas. This is the same, in the same way that we had passing and receiving areas, of passing data from one part of a spreadsheet to another part of a spreadsheet. Erm, so you bring all the data down, passing over the simple formulae and then do one copy. So file combine is the method. You've had a look at that before. Combine at range, try and arrange all the files into another file. You only need to one file combine, that's one advantage, instead of three, so it's about three times quicker. But er, there's also an advantage of passing and receiving areas as there is before. Er, all to keep in clear order where information was going to and from. Erm, instead of you can combine directly a range from one file into another file. You can also er, another method, you could while you're working on this file, use extract to save that range of that file to a separate file,and then when you retrieve this file you can com you combine this file here. This small file to there. So you can either go that way or you go direct. Erm, the advantage of this way is it tends to confuse most of the time, but it's a lot quicker. It only takes half a second to save that relatively small range. That small file, and it only takes half a second to combine that relatively small file to there. But it might take half a minute to combine this range from this relatively large file. So in terms of overall computer speed, that method could be quicker, but I don't recommend you use it actually, because it's risky. It's risky in the sense that you change this file. You save it, but you forget to extract that range to a separate file. And then go to this file, and then you combine in this file here to there, and you don't realize it's an old copy. That's a risk, that's where you get the wrong answers. When you, when you expect that that that that takes the copy back in the old file. Oh, it does. When you do file extract, just er, saving part, it's not removing it from this. Its copying it though. Just copying it, yes. Like you do a file save. When you do a file save. Your file doesn't disappear. Right, now, the specific methods, file combine, is one method. Er, file combine has its problems, though. Anybody had any problems with file combine? Yeah. What's the problem you had? the that, sometimes you can get combine figures with, with file display, but it doesn't combine correctly, or edit properly, or edit formulae Formulae. Right that's the problem. Formulae. Er, let's look at this spreadsheet here. I've got an input number there. A number on the grid. In that cell I've got a formula, just multiply the number above by the number of the left. Then got a label and then got another formula in a cell. I want to copy those four numbers into another file. So you each give those four cells a range name, which I have already done. Range name, create data. It's not my normal name if you notice, but the name those four cells data, okey-doke. And er, I'll save the file, and er, I want to copy that data, let's say to here. Put the cell point in there. If I do a file combine and then copy and then just part of the file, so it's name you'll specify the range. What range? It's the range the range name data. So I'll type that in. Now what's the name of the file? Well, the file is called F C V. Press enter, and there's the hundred, that's fine, but this should have a thirty in it, it's got a zero in it. The reason being is that it's copied for formula across, see at the top F eight time E nine, and that formula has gone and recalculated straight away. It's multiplied a hundred above by a blank cell on the left and you get zero. So that's why, it's copied the formulas across. I didn't want the formulae. I was just wanted the numbers menu. There isn't an option unfortunately, erm, er, one potential solution er, which may well work, is to use file, combine add instead of copy, let's have a go with that one. Add main range data file F C V and ah, there we've got the right numbers, a hundred and a thirty. Look in the top left, there's no formulae. Not that we want it, just the number, that's fine. Er, what we haven't got though, is a label there. There was a label in that cell, er file combine add, doesn't copy labels. It doesn't copy formulae, it doesn't copy labels either. But if, if you don't need labels, then file combine add is an acceptable way of coping the data across. I just want to tell you, time I done that done that on a number of spreadsheets compared with the same label on one, on one Yeah, that had a label in the cell, if I had A B C in that cell. If I was to do a file combine add again. File, combine add take range. Take F C V. It doesn't know I've written the A B C, Right. so it, any, whenever I have a cell, put a label in Oh. it or a formula in it. What it also does, as you see, is it adds what you combine combining two of what's on the spreadsheet. So it's got two hundred there now. So before you do a file combine add, you need to erase first, and then do the file combine add. So that it doesn't add the numbers to what's on the screen. Now, if you do want labels, as well as the numbers. What you doing to do? Well, this is the solution. You set recalculation to manual, first. You put a slash, worksheet, global recalculation and manual and then you do your file combine copy again. File. Combine. Copy. Name range. Data, and F C V then file. Right, so there's all the right numbers, and the label. Still copy the formulas across, you notice. But the formulas haven't calculated yet. sorted out in your calculator, as soon as you combine them. What I need to do therefore, is get rid of the formulae, just leave the numbers there. How do you do that? Er, how do I get rid of these formulae, that one and that one, but leave the numbers there? Or some value. Something value, yes. Erm. Range value. Range value, yes, that's it. You do slash range value. It works just like copy does. With one difference. What's the difference? Exactly the same as copy, but there's one difference. The way copy works. copy Anything said at the back. Yes, it is. It doesn't copy the formulae. It doesn't copy the formulae. Yes, that's the difference between copy and range value. So, erm, highlight what you want to copy, which is that, and then ask where do you want to copy to. So where should I copy to? Same place. The same place, that's it. Normally when you copy, you copy somewhere different, er, which I could do, but er, I'm gonna copy it to the same place. So I just press enter. If you copy it to a different place, does it leave the blank formulas In the original place, yes. somewhere else. Use the second one just with the numbers, that's right, yes. But I've copied over to the same place, what it seems to be doing provided the cell pointed out, you're looking at the top left. You don't see the formulae any more, just the number if there's one there. So that's the solution. You set recalculation to manual, do the file from my own copy and then use range value to remove formulae So that's the file combining method. Getting data across We'll go on to another another way of getting data across from one file to another is with a special type of formula. Like this one at the top. If I type that formula in a cell on a spreadsheet. What's the two the name of the file, two greater than the cell address and it er, gets to the data from that cell and that other file. Have you ever done, used these formulae. Anybody used them? By linking formulae. You've used them Linking files together. For linking files together. Right, and there's various pros and cons to be aware of. So that's rather good. So let's demonstrate first of all how they work. I've got a file named sales one. Here it is, and erm, leave these er, on this row er twenty five, I've got a total sales figures, and it's that total sales figure there that I want to pass across into another file. Let me save this file. That's the cell C twenty five that bears the total. I've got a file called income two, and let me just erase what's here first of all. Right, so we'll type a formula into this cell, this is where I want the total sales figure to be. So type plus two less thans, the name of the file, which is sales one, two greater thans, and a cell address, C twenty five and then enter and that number one five four is, you got from that file sales one, in cell C twenty five, and I can copy that formula to the right, just like any other formula, I can copy it. Erm, there we go, and er, we copy right C twenty five E twenty five, that's it. Let me save this file. Letting me go back to the sales file. Have to change some of the numbers. Right, let's save the file. Let's retrieve the, the er, other file back again, and as soon as you retrieve it, updated it,data from the other file. So, as you retrieve it, it's updated the file. That sounds very good. You didn't have to press any buttons, it just did it. Shouldn't that be a range name instead of a cell address? Er, well, yes, we'll come to that. Wh why might you want to do that? of spreadsheets are Sorry? Well, a group of spreadsheets You put re you would want to put range names on the cell. Instead of C twenty five, you have a range name. Is that what you mean? Yeah, well I manually combine at the moment the range names. A number of range names from a number of You file combine? Yeah. Oh, I think what you're trying to say is can you combine a whole range and not just one cell. Right. Well, I'll come back to that. Let me go back to er the inco er the sales file. Let's say we're gonna research a number of products. The product er F write numbers. Here we go. Save it away. Let's retrieve the other one back again the numbers absolute type That's right, erm, I can save it with the row on the other files, but the total is now on row twenty six, but this is still referring to the same cells, C twenty five. Oh. The row twenty five is no now contains a dash blind. Erm, so that's not very good. Erm, at least I spotted it here, and I can rea realize what the problem is. Change that to a twenty six and then copy this er right. But, er, you might not have spotted it, and furthermore, you might have er, referred to another row that contains numbers. Here it was obvious that something was wrong, because you saw a dash. But you could have er, be er could now be referring to a different row that happens to have the same numbers in. Might not seen obviously wrong. So, therefore you get wrong answers. So, this is a big risk with these highlighted formulas, if you do it this way. Of course, we're always going to be inserting and deleting and moving things about, so, er, the risk of this happening will be very high. But there is a solution, and that's to use range names. So let's go back to the file again. Er, I could name that cell with a range name, that cell there, the first cell. range name create, erm, in fact, I've already done it. Th this cell, erm, C twenty six, I've named cell zero one. That cell there. Name cell zero one. Cell zero two. Name that one. E twenty six, I've named zero three, and so on. That's my normal naming convention, my normal naming convention is use the first two letters W L. W I've explained, and L stands for linking. So you have to create a range name for each cell that you're going to link. Let's go back to the other file er, I'm going to put a range name in, cell zero one on that one. Cell zero two on that one. Right, so I, I've put, got the range names on the first two, but not on the others. Let's save this file and then retrieve the er, other one back again. Let's insert yet another product. Type in the numbers save it, retrieve the other one back again. So at least the first two cells are still picking up the right two numbers, because we used the range names, we've inserted a row on the other file, but er, we're still about range names found where those cells are. Whereas here and in that range name it's still referring to row twenty six. So that's the solution. Use the range names when you file formulae. Sorry. I want to erm, go ahead and put files formulae information three files one point one down Yes, Can I do that? yes, you can have diff different opening formulae with a different part name in it. Yes, but no not into the one cell. You have to bring the two separate cells into fourth cell, total number. Yeah. Erm. You can't link a whole range to a whole range, you can only have to one cell. So this a thing you won't like about it, is that if you've got er, thirteen columns and ten rows, that means you have to create hundred and thirty range names, which you won't enjoy doing. Erm, but you really need to do it, cos the risk of things going wrong are very high, you don't Right, let's file I wanted to say a fe a few things about One Two Three Release Three, cos there are some differences on the Windows products. When you retrieve the linked file one two three, release three of four, it doesn't automatically update itself, and it does here. So what do you need to do in order to release three or four? One thing you can do, is do file admin link and that goes and gets the data from the file on the disk. It takes it then. But I don't use it, er, because it's incredibly slow. It can measure it and wait hours. If you've got a, if you're linked to a big file and you got a lot of linking formulae, you can wait hours for it to finish. So you want to avoid it at all costs in release three of four. So what should you do? Well, in release three of four you can have more than one file open at the same time. Let me show you. Here's the first file that I've got, this is the sales file, and, to bring the second file into memory in this, this One Two Three Release Three, you do file open. That leaves this file in memory, but brings another one into memory. Er, might as well move the next one in and that cell's got a file linking formulae which is updated cos of the files in the memory. Let's just create a window, so we can see both files on the screen at the same time. Right, so in the lower window, we've got the sales file, and the upper window we've got the income file. The linking formulae in that cell. If I change a number here, you'll notice,si since I change that number here it recalculates through to the other file. The two files are in memory. When you change one, the other automatically recalculates through. So if you need to pass data across from one file to another in release three or four, they don't convert the files and then they, data transfers across virtually easy Any questions on that. Right, er, we got tea or coffee or a soft drink Ten, fifteen minutes. How long do you need? Well, a little bit about managing your files. Is there a tape recorder in here somewhere? has got it By the wall here. Oh, right. That's why you're quiet over there, is it? So a bit about managing your files. Er, you shouldn't put too many files in one directory, cos then you can't find them, when you're looking for a file. You see a whole list of files you can't retrieve, you get a whole list of appearing. And, er, you probably retrieve half a dozen files before you find the one that you want. Has this happened to you from time to time? You can't remember what you called a certain file, and Yeah. it looks like it might be that one, got to try that one. Not the one. Er, is it this one? No. No, it's not that one. You can retrieve quite a few,wa waste a lot of time, anyway. Erm, what you want to do is to create lots of directories and put different sets of files in different directories. Are you familiar with directories? Yeah. DOS. Making directories. Erm, the analogy is the filing cabinets. Er, you wouldn't have a great big stack of paper in the corner of the room. Well, er, if you did, then if you were looking for something, you couldn't find where it was, you know, you'd have to delve in, and you take ages to find whatever you're looking for. But er, if you file everything away in filing cabinets, then er, you can go to the right filing cabinet, open the right drawer, maybe there's some folders in there. Pick out the right folder, if it's got a tab on it. Then maybe between various other pieces of paper, you find the one that you're after. And, find thing quickly. Erm. So. Erm, you want to put your own computer files in directories in the same way. You ever created a directory? How do you do it? Erm, you have created a sub with DOS. Created a sub-directory, right. In erm, DOS, do you do M D M D, that's right space, back-slash What does M D stand for? Main directory You, if you get the C prompt. You've seen the C prompt, have you? Mhm. And, you wanted to create a, a sub-directory off the root directories known as root directories you would type M D space suppose you wanted to create a directory named put,put your budgets in. Keep them in,press enter. So that creates a sub-directory, off your root directory, called put. You may have a list of directories as well, off the root directory, and then you've got a directory called One Two Three One Two Three programs in. Mhm. And you may have some other directories. Then if you've got one called DOS. Put the DOS programs in there All that, all I can do is pick a file out of my come under One Two Three, but if you do that in Lotus you have to do the one two three first. No, you can create a separate sub-directory. I've got one two three and a black-slash But if you put two three and I put in in the sub-directory. Yeah, that's what I mean, you have to do it on one two three. No. No, when you do make directories, you just put you wouldn't save it into Oh, I think it Saving it into one two three Yes, but once you, once you automatically. Yeah. How do you get into DOS? If you're in One Two Three of that suppose you wanted to make a directory. use it. How do you get into DOS? We have to go out I'd exit out Yeah. You could quit. Yeah. You could do, but then you have to restart One Two Three and re-retrieve your spreadsheet and all the rest of it. If you choose system from the top menu, that puts you into DOS, but it leaves One Two Three there. So you quickly get back so it's pointing at my one two three directory, so if I do M D yeah. if I do M D space put here, it will create a sub-directory, below the one two three directory, but if I want as a sub-directory from the roots directory, I have to type M D back-slash put. That would make it off the root directory. Erm. You can also point, well you start, you can point at the root directory, if you wanted to. Do you know how to do that? At the moment it's pointing at this one two three directory, back-slash P back-slash one two three Now you point at the root directory You directory You use You do C D sorry, I should have said M D If you want to make a directory off the root directory,you type M D to make directory. If you want to point at another directory, you do C D change directory, and that's pointing at the root directory there. Er so, when I want to create a directory called put off the root directory. I can do M D space put. I've got a directory here, now. You may want to put further sub-directories below that, maybe for different years, ninety three, ninety four ninety five. How do you how do you do that? back-slash one two Don't you do Do the and then the back-slash and then the Yes, you can do er, you can M D Put. Put M D I can do back-slash got a lot of space put here back-slash ninety three. Or you could you could point to that directory called put first of all. You do C D space put, so you're pointing at that directory, and then if you do M D ninety three, M D space ninety three, and then I've created a sub-directory in ninety three, below this directory. You do M D space ninety four, and create that one, and so on. And you can go further down under the ninety three and you may want to create further sub-directories. So, the put is like your filing cabinets. And these directories are like drawers in your filing cabinets and then you've got further sub-directories still, below that, then er, they're like folders, within your er, filing cabinet drawer. So you put your files in these different directories and then, when you're looking for something, er, you'll find it more easily. If you're looking for a budget file, for a particular year, and you know where to look. How do you erm, well, to get back into Lotus, type exit, and then enter Hang on right back to the spreadsheet. How do I erm, change it, so that when I do file retrieve, it lists directories in put ninety three. It lists files. If I do file retrieve it, it lists the files in put ninety three. That's the directory here. How do you do that? Well, you could type it all. what I do and then I could Sub-directories Er, yes, you could type er, back-slash back-slash put and then press enter, and it lists the sub-directories and you highlight that and press enter and then it would list where the files are in that directory, of course, I haven't got any, we've just created those directories. Erm, but then ev every time I wanted to retrieve a file from that directory, I'd have to type in that put and the ninety three and all the rest of it. How can I set it so that, soon as I do file retrieve, it lists the files from that directory? Worksheet file directory. Put the name of the directory. Erm Not files, yeah the Well, worksheet directory. You're almost right Worksheet directory. Erm. The file directory. Yeah. You do file Directory Directory Yeah Here. So the display'll change the current directories. The current directories, gotta be this one. If I wanted to point at the put directory. Put ninety three. I type that in, press enter. And then if I do file retrieve bring that up and it's listing files from that directory Yeah. straight away. Sorry? What I've done in the past, is erm, for file retrieve and then erm, on top of the original do a slash put and then enter, and that then gives me a sub-file. Basically, it lists the files on that directory, yes. You have to type put every time. Not like saying, if you do this file directory, type the put in, then er, you wouldn't have to type put in every time you retrieve the file, from the directory. Mm. Right. Let me just put the directory back to where it was. File directory right. Erm. So the advantage of pu putting your files in different directories, is you find things easily. One of the advantages. Probably some others as well here. As regards to various er other chores like deleting a set of files or copying a set of files, if you don't want the ninety three files any more you just delete all the files in the directory. You don't have to pick out the ones that are ninety three, cos th they're all ninety three in that particular directory. Er, another thing that's useful to do, is to name your files in a particular way. Have a convention for how you name your files. So the maximum length of the file name is, is what? Eight Eight characters, that's right. So you could use different characters of the file name to mean different things. Er, for example, the E A year as part of the file name, like eighty seven. Erm, you may well have got different directories, for the different years. It's not a good idea to include the year as part of the file name as well, because you might accidentally copy some files into the wrong directory. You might copy the ninety three file by accident into the ninety four directory. And if you've got the same file names, and you're doing a copy in DOS, you just overwrite them, and you overwrite the ninety four file with ninety three file there. But if each file has got a unique name, then that can't happen, so er, if you copy the all the files in that directory have got nine four as part of the file name, then if it's got nine three then, er, you won't be able to overwrite any files, you have two sets of files in there, and you can sort it out later on. Erm, in this particular spreadsheet system, there's a number of different files, for different departments. So I've got the department number. Just the two digit number in this example. There's the second and the third character of the file name. If it was a s single digit er, department, like department number six. I'd enter that as zero six. It always takes up the same number of positions in the file name, and that's useful as you shall see. Erm, I may have budget files, actual files, forecast files. There's a letter to indicate er, what that, er, is B for budget, A for actual, and F for forecasts. Er, the different types of files perhaps, there's a, maybe a payroll file, I have a P there, and I have a access file I have an A there. So, when you're looking for a file, you know you want, oh yes, it's for er department er thirty six er it's er payroll file, it's for nineteen ninety four and it's budget. Before you start looking for the file, you know what the file name is. So when yo you get a list of the file, you do a file retrieve, they're all listed in alphabetical order. You can, you alre can very quickly focus in on the one you're after, and you'd be sure that was the one, and you retrieve it and it's there. Very quickly. You don't have to retrieve any different files. Go searching through long lists of file names to find what you're after. So that's one advantage of having a naming convention. You find what you're looking for quickly. Erm, another advantage is erm, with various er chores, which is copying or deleting files. If I wanted to copy all of the department twenty two files to the, the A disk, the floppy disk. In DOS I could type copy space D twenty two star dot star to A. You familiar with these er the asterisks? What these mean? What does an asterisk mean? The whole file. The whole, whatever's on that erm. Would be all D twenty two. It would have to begin D twenty two, and anything that follows erm suppose you wanted to delete all the nineteen eighty seven files. What would you type in? In DOS. You type del, I'll give you that? Then what? Star dot, Eighty seven. Eighty seven. Eighty seven. Sorry. Wh what eighty-seven? Whatever it is, the department number, whatever. Well, it's all dif all different departments. Erm, eighty seven, then what? Dot star dot star Star dot star. you've delete your column eighty seven . Erm. Well, it says are you sure. What do you say? No. That's an honest answer. It's not what you normally do, is it? Er, most people, when they see a question like are you sure, they say, course I'm sure, yes. And er, that does delete all the nineteen eighty seven files, that's true. In fact, though, it deletes everything. It's the same as typing star dot star. Which you probably recognize as being everything. Says are you sure. Mm. Say yes, it deletes everything. So save yourself a bit of time like that. And, so that's not quite right It deletes star dot eighty seven. Star dot eighty seven. Now as soon as you put the dot, what you're saying is erm, that's the extension. These are the last three characters and then into the extension,the they're probably going to be W K one. Ta take the asterisk out. Er, in erm you need to use another wildcard. Do you know any other wildcards other than an asterisk? Question mark. Question mark. That's the one. Now what would you type then. Down One, two, three, four, four questions marks eighty seven. Four question marks eighty seven Question mark. Can do a question mark, I suppose. I suppose in the year I needn't do a star, a star if you wanted to. Er, so what that question mark means is golfing conversations of any use. Pardon? Golfing conversations of any use. No. Why what's wrong with golf? Has to be you're not recording. Oh no. But Danny died on Friday morning. Sad too really for Mm. for me and I think it might be rather than just record an apology for her absence, I think we should just put in something, just to say that we're that we are very sad Mhm. that er at Danny's death. And also I think we should record our admiration at how she has coped really over the last few years Do we want to send flowers? I thought we could come to that later on . Mhm. Right. But er I think our admiration for her Mhm. should be recorded really Mhm. and er Well that will come in to the meeting as well. And the meeting cos we really have Mhm. to start the reading of the next and last meeting and Mhm. all that jazz. have to start doing that . Okay? All right then. Okey doke. talking about apologies for this meeting . Can you speak a little bit louder please. No. Is the tape on. It was. Yeah. Oh . Right meeting. I would have thought it would have been better in the introduction rather as part of the minutes, would you not have thought so? Well I thought you wanted it in the minutes.. problem. Well all right we'll ha Okay l let's have the minutes of the last meeting then Joan. Right. Present, May , Edith , Jim , Duncan , Agnes , Margaret , Kell , Barbara and me. Apologies from Anne. The minutes of the previous meeting were ado were read and adopted by Mrs and seconded by Mrs . Matters arising. Mrs N was on the committee, and was welcomed by the ladies captain. Treasurer's report. The following amounts were held in the accounts. Deposit, eight hundred and twenty one. Current, eighty four pound ninety nine. Cash in hand, thirty two pound ninety nine. Making a total of nine hundred and thirty eight pounds ninety eight. Three hundred and eight pounds was for the ladies open, four hundred and twenty for the outing to , two hundred and twenty six had already been paid for the coach, plus all the prizes. Handicap secretary's report. There were ninety entries for the ladies open, and entries have now more or less stopped. Club championship second round was cancelled due to inclement weather, and it final round. the final round will now be played in conjunction with the golf foundation competition for the eighteenth of August. A separate notice will be put up in the locker room, that three person bounce games can now be used for cutting handicap. Secretary's report. A letter was sent to the church council asking for the tea to be reserved from nine thirty until sixteen thirty on the days of the ladies open, fourth of August. And to asked for the cream teas to be retained. This had been agreed. Letters have been sent to Duncan and Willy be once again acting as starters. Duncan agreed, but there was no reply from Willy, due to domestic circumstances. Captain's report. The trophy for the ladies open has not been engraved for the last few years. Helen to be contacted and asked for the plinth so that this can be completed before this years event. Letters to be sent out to local firms as per list. This should be brought up to date for next year. Some donations have already been received, and the treasurer will produce a list, a letter of thanks. Any other business. Outing. Trolleys can be hired at . There'll be one scratch and six handicap prizes for the morning, a scramble for players in the afternoon, with prizes for each of the winning group. There will be the normally prize, plus any prizes to be between the ladies captain and the handicap secretary. Tips, ten pounds for the bus driver, and thirteen pounds for the . The open. It was suggested that a letter be sent to the church council, asking for a notice lower down than at present, to be positioned to ensure ladies from other clubs, find the fifteenth tee. Also that each card, a slip should be inserted, and following competitors of the whole at which the longest driving will take place,where the fifteenth tee is sited. A proposal was put forward to change the outing to a weekday because of the increasing problems of finding a course to accept ladies on a Sunday. It was agreed to hold a vote on the bus this Sunday, as there were people who would normally be attending and also . And also if necessary . Meeting closed, next meeting fifth of July. Now somebody like to Dr somebody like to . Well now, business arising from the minutes? Right. Joan? A letter was sent to the church council. They haven't replied yet, but verbally they said there'd be no problem with the notice. Mhm. Er I've done the slips and given them to Margaret to be . There was no vote taken on the bus. On the bus. And Willy has replied They actually spoke about in at the place right enough. Some of the girls speaking about it. Aye they did . But then we should have got we we sh We should have done it on the way there, but we forget. There were too Mhm. many other things being organized. Willy has replied and said, he won't be able to do it because of his domestic circumstances. But erm is going to step in and do it. Oh that's good. Good that's that's grand, that's grand. If there's er there's no more word about Bettie at the moment she she's just in the same condition as she's been Mhm. for the last two or three weeks, yes. Has the plinth been returned? Who was who was t Helen Yes I know Helen has it. Did Me I would imagine would be contacting. Oh well we don't know. as long as it's not There's nothing in the draw is there?get keys for the drawer. keys. No. be in there. and they don't have keys for the door. Oh well maybe and Gwen if she comes back. Yeah. . Helen has certainly been asked. Cos I heard Mm. someone asking here about it. Try and Is she playing on Wednesday does anybody know? Yeah? Maybe remind her on Wednesday or find out from her if she you know,asked her. Anything else on there? From the last minutes? Right just. Pardon? Nothing to be added is there? Don't think so. Apologies for tonight's meeting have been received from Nancy, who is on holiday, and may of course is isn't here because Danny has died. I don't know how many are going to the funeral on Wednesday morning, it's ten o'clock at Sacred Heart. Where is it, Sacred Heart? Which is just at the angle So it's the one down Just at the angle the he just the junction of Road and on the left hand side here. There's a car park the church. Is there. you can get into the car park if you come down er . you just turn then before the church, there's a car park there. before the church. Is that before you take the the angle? Before you take the angle? You turn in to the right. Aye coming down from the cross. And there there's a car park just behind. There will be a I think there'll be a lot of cars there. Mm. Let's face it, you can cross the r Park across in and walk across. Mhm. Yes. You could actually park erm I don't I don't think there'll be any difficulty. Er Road.. Anyway the service is at ten o'clock Mhm. in the Sacred Heart. eleven fifteen. But I know that er the one or two people who told me that they're going, er we were just going to the service in the church and then Mhm. come on to the and play our golf afterwards . Mhm. Now I know that I'm going and Alma's going, but we've yet to decide I would rather just go to the crematorium Well that yes well Aha. Aha. Erm It's only be . to the crematorium as well? Or to the church ? Well that's what they haven't decided. I see. leave a wee note up there or something? I think when Aha and then coming . I think I think so because if if we leave it any Mhm. later than that, it's er I mean to go to the crematorium at quarter past eleven, we wouldn't be back here before twelve o'clock. No the way we was thinking of going we were just gonna go to the the church to find out how many Go to the church and then come down. were gonna go to the church and then we would come back down. That would I thought she was leaving a note or something, no? Aye? did she leave a note? No. But anybody who wants to to go to the crematorium Aha, cos I've from her. rather than to the cos the church service is long, it does take er nearly an hour I believe Well Marg I mean I phoned Margaret, she said it takes about an hour. An hour, but down there there'll only be a quarter of an hour. Mhm. I'm gonna go to the church, but I'm just going straight to work. Mhm. Yes. Yes. I don't know that we should Do we all do we want to go together and sit together or are we just go Yes that would be fine. I think it probably would. Mhm. down the Road or whether it was the one here and wasn't sure either. Cos I phoned her this morning. You know what I mean, she wasn't sure . No, she to she told me on the phone. told me that it's that it's Sacred Heart . Mhm. So I phoned her last Nancy phoned me last Friday afternoon before she went on holiday to tell me, and I phoned I wasn't sure whether just to sort of play it low key or then I thought, Well I know I really should just give here a wee ring. sympathy to her and er she she was alright, she was grand. She said that you were been quite shocked though because Mhm. they'd been ca they'd been called so many times you know when he was low. And er she just sort of that it happened so quickly. But at the same time she said, Well we're pleased because you know, he didn't suffer any pain or anything. Just The the nurse had turned him at half past five in the morning. And when they came to wake him up and get him ready for breakfast to feed him at six o'clock, he was gone. Ah. could have been a stroke. They thought it was perhaps just that. You know. A fairly big stroke that just She's been an absolute brick She has really We're full of admi admiration for her. She's been ma she's been a really constant The constant devotion that she had Mhm. for him really was was really super. great And of course her doing it all with her usual Mhm. wit and good nature that Mhm. However. So anyway, no more apologies . flowers no? Oh flowers Yeah I was going to say, I thought we might send flowers to her maybe on Thursday or Friday. Just let you know, let it get past and then send her some. Some flowers. Yes Joy has a Joy A friend who's a florist. Mhm. A friend who's a florist and gives a very you know, extremely good value for Twelve pounds. Mhm. Well well I know that er Marian's flowers are are they're beautifully arranged too and they're you're getting You'll probably get er a lot more flowers for your money from Marian than you would get from . No guarantee. If you want to use the guy that you normally use fair enough. How old was erm Danny? Was he about twenty three? Twenty four? Was he not older than that . I thought he was about twenty eight. I understood he was nearer thirty. I know time has stood still really. been quite a few years she's been Oh Aye. Well where will where will we Meet? No where will Where will we go for the flowers? That's right, fair enough then. Now do you organize that, because you've got the money Edie, is that? Well if you don't mind. Erm. You might have a slight problem, because we use the same I'll I'll try and get out the cash. Oh of course. we usually if I want a cheque signed you see or And it has to be May? You don't have any cash in hand or anything? Well at the moment we've got five pounds cash in hand. But I'll make it up, I can always square it up later on. Yes yes. books later. Yes. Yes. Right if Edie wouldn't mind doing that, we'd be pleased. Right now it's your turn Edie for the Treasurer's report. Right. There's seven hundred and eighty pounds seventy pence in the deposit account. Seven hundred And eighty pounds seventy P. And forty nine pence in the current account. And Five pound thirty one, cash in hand. Which makes it seven hundred and eighty six pence. Er now three hundred and forty three pounds of that, is for the open day. Cos we've had donations, we've had t twenty five pound donation from . Er and ten pound donation from . Oh yes? Erm have given us forty pounds worth of holiday vouchers. let you know they'll come back from the letters. Yes Oh that's very good, that's quite a good response then. Who do you have donations m made payable to? Good that's excellent. Does anybody know if we've if we've had any more entries? No? Perhaps could tell us . Do we get the treasurer's thingy. No we . Do we need a statement about the outing. I assume we didn't make a loss on it. Well we What do you mean, Well? Oh dear was that the wrong question ? We had a lovely outing actually. It's just cos the bus was subsidized that's . We didn't we did there was no loss. Oh well in that case, a jolly good time was had by all. we had a good subsidized bus. Yes. I think er I think everybody enjoyed the outing. There were a few complaints about the rough was too rough and the coarse was too bad and whatnot, but I quite liked the fact that it was labelled because it meant that Rosemary could and could play the . They wouldn't have managed eighteen holes had it been you know a hilly course. So and we got the benefit of the scenery roundabout. It was good. You do appreciate you own course when you come back . Oh Appreciate the fairways. Well we played Monday, and would do anything to have 's greens. Well certainly the greens were long but the fairways were about The greens were good Oh aye, I got my feet rather wet, from being in the bog. Bit steep for us, thirty quid a round. So we have the report from from you Edie. My secr No no, I haven't got my secretary's report here. and we can't er the handicap secretary's not here yet so we don't know. Captain's not here, so I don't know. Pardon? A vice captain's one? I didn't w I didn't win anything. Now that was a very good idea actually. Mm. Giving us a consolation prize of a golf ball. Yes yes Yes it was. Mhm very good. I think that was good, we'll keep that in mind for next year . Mhm. Have we decided for next year? Well Well I think we are round to any other business I suppose. Next year's outing could come u I wrote down in the book, some of the places. There was ,, West Lothian,,and . But I couldn't get a phone number for that one. , it's it's Golf course, and it's the Golf Club. The Golf Course is I think yes . Aye. Erm I couldn't get Greenbaum. Somebody told me Greenbaum was lovely,come to the house get at weekends? No. No. is thirty pounds Thirty pounds a head. Edinburgh and it's thirty pounds a day. Erm , I've just got a phone number to phone them. , no Sunday. Erm what was the other one? West Lothian,. They're yes it's quite a late . Well it's not very It's hilly but it's not it's not as bad as It's not strenuous. as from what I gather. It's not strenuous. And the problem with that is that is like a tiny boxroom. It really is very very small. But the problem with the ladies room is too small I asked the ladies captain what they did. considering we're going as far what about . No we just no it was just, people had said these things and won't take on a Sunday. But I just said put them down in the book . were coming back weren't they? West Lothian, West Lothian we've already written to West Lothian and it was too early. Aha. They don't know the dates Right. Mhm. until the fixture list is completed next year. keep the letter and try and contact us Mhm. again in nineteen ninety four. Right. Mhm. So you're gonna have to gonna start writing letters we're gonna make sure we West Lothian's locker room is half the size of ours. Not counting the toilets . Mhm. I asked the captain what they did when they did when they had ladies parties? She says, Oh well we just sort of all move along. But you're all arriving at the one time. I mean That's right that's right, yeah. No it's not m it's not much it's not much further than. These are only names that people have mentioned and I wrote them down, I write them down. It's not much further than . And the the road has been improved. So you should be well with a decent bus you should get the course Well I enjoyed it. was one of the places that we. The clubhouse is lovely. Aha, the clubhouse is lovely . Aha. And the food was very nice you said. I we I went and looked at it I looked at it, it looked all right and I thought We went to the opening, wondered why it was,met everybody. And then we got out on the course and we realized . You knew why. People had been before and Cos I think we've written to them about three or four times. Yeah. Keeps being on my list It is very difficult a Sunday, but it Actually although we didn't take a vote on the bus, the few people that I did speak to a few people, and they were not terrible exited at the idea of of an outing during the week. Well for one thing we have got really have quite a few school teachers now who just couldn't get off during How many school teachers do we have Agnes? Well I don't know I haven't look through the list. bringing it into July or are too many people on holiday in July? Even the first week in July. Mhm. Even the first week. Well where's Nancy, she's away for a start. Mm. But she wasn't away till the third or the fourth, if you could get it within the very first few days So at the mo at the moment what Joyce is a school teacher. she knows you and her name's Joyce . And know her. What are the what are the possibilities that we have then?and West Lothian. and West Lothian both said it's too early didn't they. 's kept us on file and will give us the first date available in June. Er is the same. Erm But we weren't interested in were we? Er is that all you mentioned? West Lothian, that was too early and we're to write back to . You're really as well leaving I know We've had a lot of problems. Well you used to be able to book up a over a year in advance. But it's getting now there's there's no way they're gonna take you. I mean I had the same problem when I was secretary. That Joan's having now . Mhm. You know every time you go it was too early, too early right back. There was very few who were willing to take Mhm. I think it's they're booking told to put nineteen ninety five on the ledger as well. Nineteen ninety five? I like the sound of I like the the distance it's away and er I would think it would be depend on the weather. Well that depends the weather depends most courses And God knows how that bus'll get to . Even if it's the same bus. You've actually been here just yourself How how did you find it. Well I found it difficult because I I still cannae play golf well, but I could play even less well then. But if you hit When you're going round this hill, if you hit to the right, the ball always came like too many . enjoyed it. All the rest of them that could play golf enjoyed it, because we're not going to play golf, we're going to have a good time. Some place where we can enjoy ourselves. But it's you get a terrific view once you've Yes I was going to say that. The views should will be quite nice from parts of that course I would think. Just just thinking of itself, I don't know the course. You're going round clockwise one way and anticlockwise the other. There was a lot of congestion the night we were there. A lot of Mm? hold ups. We could see people You know, why that would be I don't know and I thought possibly times when you couldn't see beyond that hole . Aye, I though, Well maybe it's a difficult hole and there's hazards or something . Do you think it's worth writing to Has anybody else any thoughts about ? Do you know golf club? Mhm. Mhm. Cos they changed since we were there. It used to be beautiful. The club house beautiful cos we've got Aha a wee course and a big course. You played there We went there we went there last Easter. Mhm. For the weekend. Have you any idea what the green fees would be there ? It's going to make the cost of the outing very expensive . Mhm. And did you get round it alright? We've still got Pam reckons it was thirty pounds . Yeah. Yeah that's well that's I think that would make our er outing very very expensive. Maybe too expensive for some of the members. That was one of the advantages of you know Mhm. That's right. As well as being flat it was very cheap. look at then if it's municipal. I think we are goi we are going to have to face the fact that we are not going to get an outing Is municipal? Well for l for Is it? Mhm. For less than thirty pounds Mhm. going to a private club . I thought it was quite expensive the last time we wrote there as well. Well this i this i I feel that er I think your weekend fees are always dearer than your week it was not before It's got wide open fairways. Well we played at before but we But the food we we didn't like the food, but you could always arrange to eat somewhere place else. I I thought was a . It was really it was really a lovely too wasn't it. Remember how hot it was. Mhm. five minutes Well I didn't enjoy because Every every element available was there. . Well another thing is the the fees are quite expensive at weekends . Are they? Are they. They have gone up considerably.. oh yes. Now that Gleneagles don't have the princes and the Glendevon, they've just got that Monarch course now, more and more people are playing because they realize it's it's next door. heading down that way, is there nothing down there? I don't what about in East Kilbride? Have you played there? is Yeah. lovely. We played a well we went to the open last year, quite a few of us, and we're going again er and w It wasn't a particularly nice day but we thought if it's it was a nice day, this would really be a lovely course. I've got the number but no price . What what their food and everything is like, I I wonder what Well we could get the bus to take us a long route. No. What to East Kilbride? Aha. Mhm. And just pretend we're going far away. It doesn't matter how far you go see the see the the time we went to . There was one particular hole and I looked at it and thought, in a million years we will never get up there. And I thought, you would need a miracle to get up there. And I thought well well there's just no, I've just gotta get up. And all of a sudden as I was climbing the hill I thought, Oh gosh, this trolley seems to be coming up here no problem. It is a miracle. pulled her own trolley. and you know how sod in rain. And she was pulling her trolley, pushing mine and there was me toddling up there thinking, This trolleys become But er about ? What . Did you say was very hilly? It's I don't think it's hilly, because you're up the hill, you're already up the hill. You're right up the top of the hill . I would I would think it'll be very expensive . There is a lot of cardie visitors welcome weekdays only Yes fifteen pounds at weekends. What, fifteen pence? Pounds. But you can't play at weekends . No. Sunday's quite a problem. Do you think it's worth enquiring about even though it's not very far. Yes. What about our open day by the way? I don't know there's anything else we need to organize. have parties on Sundays? No. it just says on the book weekdays only. Weekdays only. I know they all are though aren't they? Well is out then of course. If we're talking Sunday. How did you get on? How did you do? Seventy five. I think your would be too high at . I don't think they'd take you in on a Sunday either? I don't think you would go on a Sunday at . I can't imagine we'd get Sunday. it was all the names . Greenbaum. Well Greenbaum's nice. Somebody had said something about that earlier. if we're talking about going to the you can go down to play the course there, you'd only get one round played. We could also get very wet weather What's the course like Joan? Alright. Mm. Just as long as not a South Westerly or a gale. is quite a long course as well. There's no bunkers at . Yes there are I was seventeen on that. It says that in the book thing, there's no bunkers. Now how is Do you think we should leave it till leave it till after our open day? And then then by about September we can we might get a few more positive answers . You'll get responses. Sunday. Fine so we know that they take visitors. Except Saturdays. Visitors welcome except Saturdays. Mhm. Fees? Fees are fifteen pounds. I'm positive I didn't really mean yes I was really meaning we might get some answers that aren't nearer next year. Fifteen pounds is a day, it's that's at weekends. It's twelve pounds a round or fifteen pounds a day. Full facilities available for eating. I think it's Where's that? West Lothian it's on the side of a hill, but how hilly I don't know. Sixty eight. Well maybe we should leave this till after the open day, and then we can really concentrate on it. Go through the You take the book home, and you come up with ideas for the next meeting. How many people have been through? You're actually better asking people. Well I think, there are When you c when you're going up the hills, they're long gradients,you're not really aware of them. And there's a quite a lot of hills heading down. But we're not sure of facilities. Mhm. And doesn't we were discussing last year. Where is it. It's in the address book. How I quite enjoyed it but it's got deep bunkers. I think we should study the book further and maybe wait till after the come back to it after our open day . Now we need the minutes secretary's report now that she has er arrived. Well she wasn't going to come so it wasn't that exciting.. Right ninety four, for the open day now. Er from last time. I need to looking for one person,someone. Who? Er that but never says anything positive. So I haven't bought anything. About half eleven, eleven thirty six. My mum had tried some but she's What handicap has this person got?. Oh that? Aye that. She's got a caravan down I know who you mean. Yes. . Right . Er I'll ask if she can find anyone else. What time? About eleven thirty six. Well that's when Right eleven thirty six. Yes. Right. And the only thing is that finally after three months of waiting for the received all their medals and things for so it can go ahead. They had asked for stationery and the medals that you know . Sent me two sheets for the official ledger, two sheets peoples handicaps, three medals and two medal certificates and that was the whole Also I've got to say, I've had a letter back from the F L G about the letter about . . . ample facilities and we've got to use the facilities offered for nothing by members. Mm. Yes well there you are. I rather suspected the the competition I don't think they'll bother. qualifies to play in it will not People will not go No. And maybe then they'll get the message. Other than that I've got nothing to do . Well the the other thing about er that involves Margaret is the arrangements for this Wednesday. Mhm. Because Yes I was going to say about to try and start later in the morning if that would suit people . Well that was well this is the idea, because the funeral's ten o'clock. I had suggested it yesterday And it will be eleven before the service is finished, so the earliest I think we should I think quarter to twelve. I thought half past eleven tee off. I assume everybody's just going to come straight round. Yeah. There. Because I'd sort of said that It's No I was going to say, there are those perhaps who'd h haven't heard and those who don't know about it. If somebody if they turn up at the normal time, I assume when though there's you know we could leave a not a not a notice and they could just go out. Mhm. I mean, that means there's no draw I suppose that those of us who've been could have a quick draw when we Well in my . I mean there's nothing to stop them doing that . Who how many people are there? Location fourteen miles North of Dumfries. Parkland, erm weekends, fourteen pounds. Eating facilities available, except Monday. Margaret , me, Carol, Morag,. Now I don't know about Morag you know, and Mae knows. It's a well e aye. Are you playing in the morning? And so you were going as well. So it's just a matter, as soon as we come back, get out. Yes. That's it. Mhm. So we don't really need to make a set time actually, if we're all there we just all come and we just . Right. Right so that er well that, there really isn't a problem then on Wednesday morning . Margaret. It's not in the book? Right, can we go on to the open day? Erm Not till I get my pen back. Do you want this one then? We should really get, organize I mean Mae'll be around as of next week. I don't think she'll be staying off for any great length of time, with the open day coming up I think she'll be quite keen to get back so, we don't want to go. I think she'll find life abnormal enough do the normal routine she does she'll maybe think . I mean the if she were going to be next week or something, she'll maybe want to organize most of it herself. Aha. We should put notices up soon ab asking for donations for her tombola We could start doing that. Thank you. Maybe as of open day Margaret, we were saying that we er we should really put the notices up asking for donations for the tombola. And do you think we start selling raffles tickets, any time. Is it too soon or is it having a raffle. The tombola took in Aye. about two hundred pounds. And everybody brings stuff for it. Black fishnets? No they were quite sure he hasn't heard of before. I'll tell you about it at the end. . Did you not realize Carol there was You're on tape, you're Candid Camera . I didn't know what it was there for. Aye well that's recording us. to get everything in the minutes. Well this is for blackmail purposes. So apart from that, do we need do we start do we wait till next week before we start selling raffle tickets? Do you know if Helen has got the for the Well there are prizes. If anybody says, What are the prizes? I'll say see Agnes cos she knows Never mind the prizes And Agnes'll . And all the lady members always either before or on the day, come up with bags of stuff for the tombola. Oh yes we always. And we've got the two I've got the two Great. Yes. Eventually. Eventually. I want one, I want one. They're lovely actually, they're nice we were in town on Saturday and I saw two really nice sports bags, but we had so many parcels I I didn't hadn't the heart to suggest to Bill we Aha. buy any more . But I'll I'll go and get them soon. now got two A A books, this years of that, similar to that. two sets of head covers. And other things. we were talking about them, we were raising money to to buy extra practice Were we? You don't need it then it just goes, you know it can go into the We need raffle tickets. Oh we need to get raffle tickets, Obviously this Wednesday, till we get more. I suppose so. Of course we can start selling raffle tickets. What else do we need? That's a shame . Oh listen Margaret do you know looking for the the plinth in the drawer. No we'll find it. Anything else we have to do for the open day? Do you want a typewritten sheet, remember last year you had a typewritten sheet . Well that's right, we don't actually need that. I remember sitting helping to write the cards the night before and we were writing them off a typewritten sheet. Is the any to compare the the entries we have this year with the entries we got last year. And see who's not coming this year that did last year. It just might be somebody we know, and jog them along and say those lists you did, those typewritten lists from last year. probably destroyed but they should be on disk. They should still be disk. It might be worth going through them and er anybody we think Aye cos I mean we we thought We should do this for the mixed open as well, keep a a note of the entries from one year to the other and you can get in touch with people and say, Are you playing or not We don't have all that many places left do we how many can we take all together. Is the morning getting full. The morning's just about full Well it might be worth looking through last year's list in the day. Right if Edie can manage to find that, if she doesn't mind. Well and do you want me to do one for this year? Yes. Who does the notices that go up? we ask to help . I d think we can leave that actually till just nearer I was told that 's just verbally agreed rather than Aha. officially agreed. Yeah. But it is nice if they are asked, sometimes it's sometimes they are just expected to do and if they haven't been officially asked. It's nice no to be forgotten about as well. That happens that's happened in the Yeah I think past . Yes cos they've been starting Oh that would be good cos I was going to say normally,is er sort of up in that corner in charge of the tombola but er Just don't This is the some the th one of the things I was going to suggest about I was going to leave it till next meeting, is that we we try and organize ourselves so that we are not su Last year I found myself sitting there frantically writing names on raffle tickets, knowing I was going out to play in about ten minutes, but there was nobody there to take over. Well that's it. You know I should be back when there's somebody going away Well we could maybe leave it till the next committee meeting to to organize ourselves to So we know what sort of times we're expected to be sort of selling raffle tickets and Another thing, it's quite easy to get mixed up. And it's better really if one person does it. I don't know if Anne wants to do it or not. Is putting the numbers on the tombola. On the prizes Well I was going to say That's quite a lot of work for It is Yes but on the day, people are walking up there with carrier bags full of the stuff, and it's got to be done, and put out. Maybe the week before Is all the stuff coming here this time though was taking it all home. There's nowhere to store it I took it home last year. Well we need maybe I don't know I had everything in in the house any anything that they'd brought up early beforehand. That's right. the stuff down the night before with the Yes. numbers on it? Perhaps we should leave that for Mae cos maybe Mae would like to do that herself. If she If she has room at home . Right yes I would agree. Okay? Mhm. We'll just leave that for the meantime and keep We'll we'll remember. We can't just leave it till our next meeting cos it only is . I'll maybe speak to her about it a week, a week on Wednesday I I assume she'll be back then. Try and remember to say to her. I might have a problem my daughter's expecting on the twenty first of this month. And I intend to go down to London. Mhm. Right now I'd hoped but if she's late. Yes yes. problem. Well don't worry about it I can do I can I can sort out I'm gonna ask Moira to do the cheque, write the cheque. What cheque? The presentation cheque. Now don't worry about it, I'll help you with that anyway Edie. already had a list. I don't know whether there'll only be one or not. Yes well Bill and and Margaret . Usually usually Charlie helps down the and Sam usually. Is he going to help? working. Oh you're working. How dare you be working? day is it? Wednesday. You're working. might be on holiday. It's just so we can send you an official love letter. You can't be on holiday. You can't go away on holiday, Helen's got to be here on the day. It's Helen's place I don't know when we're starting back, I'm not sure. No you start on the Thursday, you keep Wednesday off. Funny that isn't it. we just get started we get Do you get the raffle tickets too? Edie? Is that I get the raffle tickets. I could probably get cheap ones. As long as they can tear. They're very hard when you're in a hurry . What were you doing? About a fiver or something So each of those big books with a thousand tickets only cost me a pound. They're over two pounds if you buy them in John Menzies. Mhm. It's easy to take off the outside when when you come to take the inside ones it's quite difficult. Sometimes the inside ones depend how carefully the the ones on top That that's right. And it it's easy when you're not busy, but if you get a spell of being busy,. How much are the raffle tickets going to be? The usual fifty pence a strip? Making it clear to them they get they get it's not they're not going in in strips, they're g they're getting five chances for their fifty pence. It's very common nowadays I know but it's only giving you one I think it's better if you give them fi They'll buy more tickets if they're getting I think they'll just buy a strip anyway. That's right you don't want just to have four chances, you want to have twenty chances . No I was saying if I was saying if I was going to spend that on raffle tickets, it wouldn't matter if I was getting The other thing is we sometimes get children around and they come and they just want to buy. You know two tickets. Well their mother'll have to give them I think we just we should stick to er giving them five chances for their. It just means like a person could more people have the opportunity of winning. It's perfect to we're going to get raffle tickets and hopefully get started selling them. A week on Wednesday or so. Yes I think. This Wednesday? Right okay we just we If you start on those two books and then Oh I see. Ju I thought you were talking about the tombola when you were saying fifty pence a strip, sorry. Something like that yes. Is that the usual. So we get more raffle tickets this week. Is there anything else that we Right those are the the most imp urgent things,get the notices up and er Who does the by the way Who is it Will you please do them this year Agnes? No. Have you time? Probably. Thank goodness tomorrow? For Wednesday . Wednesday. I'll see if I c if I've got any paper lying about the house. Can anybody think of anything else ? That's no problem. Any other er business? I'd like to ask something, I don't know if it's got anything to do with it or not, but it really annoyed me yesterday. And that was the eighth green not being on. Well And what I was playing was an official competition. It was an official competition. It's because Yes well that's that was noth Yesterday was nothing whatsoever to do with the L G U or the ladies section. But tomorrow we'll be on the the green. And we will be playing from the tee which is at the front left hand corner. What sh happened yesterday actually was, that the big flag on the new green, should have been taken out. But it wasn't. The front corner front left hand corner of that of the new tee, is our official tee and er that's where it will stay a onto the new green. It's a par three and I'm assured that it measures more than the hundred and forty yards required for us to be par three. That was a mistake. The big flag should have been taken off the the new green and it wasn't. that that green wasn't put on for that competition. Well I would agree with you there but that's we weren't running it, and we'd nothing to do with er with the organizing of yesterday's . So there should be no problem on Wednesday at all on Wednesday. But that is we we're going to go We'll on Wednesday officially we'll be on the new green . for extra day scores then It's still a par three. See we're that's what makes us well that's what makes us seventy two now. Any other er Any other er business then ladies? I think Next meeting. The next meeting I think we'd already agreed it was going to be the first Monday in August which I think is the I wouldn't entirely agree, that the whole, that all of the purchasers are entirely just because of er their age no, no don't think you become entirely vulnerable just because you age, I hope not anyway so, so do I, but er at the same we said this much to Mr that you would except that many of the people who the company deal, deal with are old and concerned with a limited income on fixed pensions, you know that don't you? the, the majority of the people the company deal with certainly are er pensioners yes they come from all types of er social backgrounds I'm sure, but they're many of them are concerned about their budget because they live off a fixed pension I don't know what the, the figures would be, er many of the residence actually had, had a considerable amount of er capital, because they had traded down into these properties erm, I understand that they might trade down, but equally there are a number and I can take you to the letters written to the if you like, are you saying you didn't realize that many of these people would have to budget, carefully budget I, I'd just, I'm not agreeing with the situation many, I'm not saying there wasn't anybody, clearly people were some some people were on fixed incomes right as I am well now let's, let's go back to it, some people might rely on their savings and some might of been mislead, that's correct as I said earlier I don't believe anybody should of relied purely on the brochure, they had legal advisers oh I understand. Does it say anywhere in this brochure, do not rely on what is in this brochure, but contact your solicitor who will have more information, does it say that anywhere? it doesn't say about contacting a solicitor, but er, er each er purchaser had a solicitor appointed and further information was provided to that solicitor obviously we will come to that. But Mr if you know that in the real world ordinary people will often rely on statements in a brochure like this, don't you agree?, that's the object of it I, I don't know, I certainly wouldn't rely on just a sales brochure if I was making a major trans no of course you wouldn't, I don't suppose Mr would, but the whole purpose of a brochure like this, is not necessary a dishonourable purpose, it's a hook the punter, to use Mr elegant word, he want to make it so simple to hook the punter and make him or her say to himself that's where we want to live and set their heart on it, that's all the purpose of this brochure in it? or is the yes it is, it's part it's like the television advertisement it's part of the sales process, yes yeah yeah well I mean so sure saves umbrage of course you didn't you'd be, er, I'm sure much more er careful, but then you're an experience er business man in the flash of youth. Mr so glad er generous compliment from my Lord do you want to ask him something? if you were aware that er when you voiced your concern Mr did clearly agree with you, right? subsequently in that instruction yes in your or about the break of nineteen eighty seven er correct but equally we now know until the Daily Telegraph published its article on the ninth of January nineteen eighty eight, some of these brochures with this representation or claim was still in circulation to the general public you know that? I've heard that evidence given, yes well Mr says he discovered that after the Telegraph article and to document of the papers that relates to it that supports that, did you discover that too? I didn't personally discover that well if it was your concern that wanted that sentence out, was it your concern to see that the brochure was withdrawn? no, I'd voiced my concern and I understood the instruction had been given for the brochures or for that particular part of the brochure to be withdrawn and would it help for my Lord and the jury who's business would it be to ensure that it was withdrawn, who's business? Mr gave the instructions that doesn't answer my question, who's business would it be to ensure that the brochures were withdrawn? ultimately the sales and marketing director who was at the time? Mr thank you so have we got this right beyond measure in the chain, the responsibility in the group of companies, you bring to the attention of your board and ultimately to Mr the fact of your concern about the centre piece correct he gives the instruction, the brochure should be withdrawn correct and it was Mr task to ensure that it's carried out as I understand it, yes thank you,Now I go back to the table, let's try and er get down to some specific example, when would er, when was priced Westcliff on Sea?, when, when was that begun to develop er Mr er, I believe it would have been nineteen eighty five nineteen eighty five and we can see the picture of it, or a drawing of it on page seventy, I haven't looked to see how many apartments there is a hundred and thirty nine a hundred and thirty nine, so, oh yes I see it page seventy seven it tells us I think how many, a hundred and thirty nine, and this is obviously a pretty big development certainly is, yes is it at the top end of the, it starts at the top end of the slope? it would be yes and again approximately how long would it take er from the commencement of the building to completion, er approximately er in this particular case it was released in phases so yes it's probably, it, it may of been up to three years I understand and you were responsible at all times for the figures which estimated the maintenance order and management services? correct were there a number of brochures therefore printed sir? I believe the brochure had been updated, yes you believe, well what are we looking at here, page seventy eight, it's been produced by er for are we looking at the first brochure, or an updated version or what? I imagine this is the first version why, why do you imagine? because it, er because these statements still contained within it oh you mean the statement? correct well how often did you update the figures for home ?remembering when started in nineteen eighty five I don't recall the actual month the scheme opened in nineteen eighty five no I believe it was towards the end of the financial year, the figures probably would have been updated at er the end of nineteen eighty six so when would the first figures be given by you for the purpose of printing, approximately probably early in nineteen eighty five what was, before the Spring? probably er Winter to Spring nineteen eighty five you mean the Winter of eighty four, five?, Christmas eighty four say January eighty five right, in or about January eighty five? yes I'm not tying you to a specific month, but about January nineteen eighty five you would give the figures for the printing of the first brochure correct when would the last sketches er be around so to speak in broad terms to, to look for about oh, because there were so many units it was er a long selling period approximately what year were talking to? it probably would have sold out in nineteen eighty eight eighty eight so are you saying the brochure was reprinted between nineteen eighty five and nineteen eighty eight?, by I imagine the first reprint would have been erm er it doesn't matter if you know no I don't know, but I, I, I imagine the er first reprint would have been September nineteen eighty six well as the person responsible for giving this information to the public you would, you would be anxious to get it as accurate as possible wouldn't you? it would have been updated in September eighty six can I come back to the question if, you see if you don't answer it I'll repeat it, you as the person responsible for the figures would be anxious to make sure they were reaching the public accurately correct thank you. If you gave these figures in January nineteen eighty five, approximately by when would they be out of date and inaccurate and would require updating?, approximately when? they would have been updated in September nineteen eighty six oh, they may of been updated then, the question I asked you was a different one, when was the moment when they became inaccurate? er, I, I can't say that they became inaccurate, they may well have been entirely accurate for the whole of the period from when they were first produced through to September nineteen eighty six what for twenty one months? yes, because it's only when the scheme actually starts to operate that you can er get a clear picture of what the cost are going to be, they are budgets, they are estimates and until you start incurring costs you can't be absolutely certain as to how the costs are gonna end up I see, when would you start knowing what the actual costs were, when would you start knowing ? er towards the end of the first full financial year give a month for the year please September eighty six you're saying until then you won't have no idea if these figures will be accurate or inaccurate that would be the most appropriate time to determine that, yes are you saying you wouldn't know whether they were accurate or inaccurate until twenty one months later? I would say that they were accurate when they were produced and there produced on the basis of accuracy at the time and they would be reviewed after the first financial period are you saying, er, I'll put it a third time, are you saying or not that you do not know whether the figures that you published are accurate until twenty one months later?, is that what you're saying? the figures were accurate when they were produced and the figures how could they be accurate if they are an estimate? well they are an estimate of what we believe the running cost would be that's a different matter, when do you know whether they're accurate?, twenty one months later after the first er effectively after the first financial period twenty one months later in this case, yes well in your experience, after the first financial year, did the figures require adjustment? they would require adjust because we're then looking towards the next twelve months would they require adjustment? they would require adjustment for looking ahead, yes do you as a person responsible for the figures, ensure that they were adjusted? they would have been adjusted, yes yes, I'll ask you the question again, did you as the person responsible for these figures, ensure that they were adjusted? I would have requested the adjustments to be made yes to whom would you make that request? to the er sales and marketing people at of whom Mr is the most senior manager, at the time at the time, yes so speaking from your knowledge, you would have made the request in or about September nineteen eighty six that should be updated? correct and provided it with a correct in order that the first brochure be published? yes was that done? as far as I can recall what is there in this brochure that tells me whether it's the first edition, the second edition or the third edition? in this brochure it doesn't it doesn't who's responsibility would it be to see that the old brochures were withdrawn and the new brochures were put on in there place? sales marketing, Mr ultimately Mr with hindsight yeah, I think you would accept Mr a clearly, clearly is a vital thing to preserve the integrity of good name of to make sure if humanly possible these brochures are accurate and updated as possible, you'd agree with that? in hindsight I would yeah and since the Daily Telegraph article indeed system has changed as you say, hasn't it, in eighty nine? many systems have changed since then no this system this system about updating these figures this system amongst others, yes maybe many others systems have changed indeed but in terms of what goes in the costs of the management charges in the brochure the systems changed since the Telegraph article hasn't it? yes and the changed is to have those charges automatically updated once a year correct so let's go back to home for a moment you say it was updated or should of been updated twenty one months later, as the first update yes was it updated a second time or did you ask for it to be updated a second time? I can't recall precisely but I, I imagine yes it would have been up, I would have asked for it to be updated at September eighty seven as well well please don't rely on imagination would it of been part of your duty to ensure it was updated in September nineteen eighty seven? yes are you in possession, that you're aware of any documents where you issue a request for the brochure to be updated in September nineteen eighty six or September nineteen eighty seven is there any document either in your possession or one you would get by another, from your request for updating these brochures if it's not already been disclosed, probably not take it from me that I haven't seen one and if there is one I'd be grateful if somebody on your site would point it out, but to my knowledge no such document has been disclosed. Would it be done by a document? it would normally, if I recall correctly at the time, there would normally been a memorandum listing new charges for each development exactly, so it would be a document issued by the by you the with the intention of what Mr and in effect update brochure here and in charge it wouldn't of gone directly to Mr no it would have gone to his er regional sales staff who would you send it to? it would have gone to whichever region the sales manager responsible or the regional managing director well who would it go to ? it would have gone to either the sales manager or the regional managing director of the Eastern region of at the time names please nineteen eighty seven I can't recall will you promise to have a look er will there were a number of changes of er, in that position of regional managing director no, no, but were would the documents be in ? I don't know, if they haven't been disclosed I, they, they probably have not been retained. Can you lay your hands on the second and third addition of the brochures then?, if there were a second and third edition I personally don't keep copies of all of the brochures no, no, it was just a bound to be a cos you see, let me explain something to you until you gave evidence today, certainly I didn't and maybe others didn't realize in this court room that what were looking at is that one edition of the brochure which may of had several editions, do you understand? yes and you Mr revealed something new, I hope you don't , there may of been two if not three editions of the costs possibly well you said the brochure had been reprinted why I don't think the whole brochure would have been reprinted page two I'm talking about the er page two the changes to the costs well is page seventy one, which you're will be reprinted and it would require a what is it of er page seventy eight yes so there are two pages what would have required a reprint, seventy one and seventy eight yes the first reprint should of occurred twenty one months after the brochure was first printed and the second reprint about twelve months later I believe that to be true and the person ultimately responsible ensuring that happened of the system would be Mr is it? well ultimately I guess, there is a regional managing director for each region who would er be responsible for their region are you able to help this jury with this simple matter, to your knowledge, on this development, on a hundred and thirty eight or so apartments did you see the second addition of this brochure and the third?, did you personally ever see it? I don't recall but this whole case is about management and service charges and you're person who erm assess them for the purposes of the brochure, you say you don't recall whether it's the second or third addition ever seen by you? not, not specifically, no let me ask you something else on a development Mr I when I watched use the er help from time to time there are major items of expenditure, after the properties built, correct correct, yes let me give you one example, there are many of these developments had flat roofs didn't they?, not all of them, but some had flat roofs a minority, yes a minority, they were covered with felt rather than ash felt were they not? in some cases, yes they would require replacing every seven years would they not? seven to ten years would be normal other major items of expenditure which would require replacement would be lift ropes is that right? correct corridor carpets yes car park tarmac yes boundary walls yes warden call systems yes and alarm systems yes after different periods of time there not all quite, quite obviously they don't all There was in nineteen eighty seven before the Telegraph article no contingency fund in your budget was there? no when did the contingency fund first come into the budget? erm approximately we approximately the subject we had been looking at for some time so I approximately, nineteen eighty eight, nineteen eighty nine oh no, it wasn't there at the time of the Telegraph article was it? are you talking about this particular scheme? I'm, no, no, no, I'm talking about the principal of putting in a contingency fund in the charges well as I say I recall it would have been nineteen eighty eight, eighty nine, I can't recall precisely after the Telegraph article I believe that to be the case thank you. You thought it was a good idea didn't you? yes so it meant that for some time before contingency fund development was introduced you must of had some concerns er about the accuracy of the figures you were putting forward for the publication, can, can I explain that a little more?if after a few years a major repair needs to be carried out there was no contingency fund, it might mean sticking another two or three hundred pounds a year on the service charges, might it not, to cover a major repair in prac er, in practice er it is unlikely that there would be any major repairs at the cost of the residence within the first eight to ten years well you already agree with me that a flat roof might require replacing in seven it might in general might generally ten years, I don't recall any, replacing any flat roofs of less than ten years we needn't argue of seven or ten, but let's say eight, I don't care, but when that fell due it would mean wouldn't it, there would be a major charge to the there residence, whoever they were? unless don't agree to pick up the cost ah which they often did come on Mr don't generally pass on the cost no, that is not correct, in many cases went well beyond what they were legally obliged to do why, because it would have been unfair to charge the residence? it depended on what the particular er problem was at the time, if something failed after four or five years it was then covered by insurance by the N H B C or by guarantees I see let take it from the other end, why did you have to take the insertion of the contingency fund of the estimates because I believe we should be planning for long term er to repair the exactly, but why wait until nineteen eighty eight to discover that, how long had you been doing these estimates for?, how many years have you been doing? on a limited number of schemes we have been doing the estimates for four or five years no not we, you I'm asking Mr you have been doing estimates for four or five years have you? yes by nineteen eighty eight? yes so you, that was, you started doing them in about nineteen eighty three? yes and approximately how many sites would you have given estimates for between eighty three and eighty eight? approximate number er, well that was changing all the time but we had erm like but is it twenty, thirty, forty, I just don't know oh it would be, been er probably eighty schemes eighty obviously I'm not tying you to a figure we just want to get some idea, so seventy, eighty or ninety as maybe, about eighty schemes over five years you've given estimates for yes which didn't contain a contingency fund element no correct the main, er the usual recurring cost was er redecorating cost which we had introduced a fund for on the outset sorry can, can we get to the question again, want to see if I've got it right, correct me if I'm wrong, over the eighty schemes and the five years that you had put forward budgets for all, you hadn't included a contingency fund element? that's correct that's correct and it was your suggestion that a contingency fund should be introduced after the Telegraph part in nineteen eighty, nineteen eighty nine, yes yes, did that require the approval of Mr or not? again that would have been a matter raised at our board and passed on could you please answer the question, would your suggestion require the approval of Mr ? ultimately, yes did he approve it? yes readily or not? yes, I don't recall any argument right, Mr did it require his approval, as the, as it were officer in charge of brochures? no it didn't require approval no and with hindsight, although, don't think I'm being over critical, although you put forward eighty or so estimates for different schemes, with hindsight it's clearly more prudent and fairer and accurate, more accurate to have a contingency fund isn't it?, in the, in the budgetary cost as a management principal one should include a contingency fund yes as earlier as is reasonably to do so what, it didn't need eighty schemes did it to be launched before you introduced it, it's something you'd been wanting to do wasn't it? something we considered that er no, no, something you had been wanting to do, not we, you had been wanting to yes I, I wanted to introduce a contingency fund yes, had you met opposition to the introduction of that contingency fund? no well why wasn't it been done earlier? because I didn't I didn't raise it earlier I see. You spoke to Mr er the journalist concerned didn't you? correct did you ever raise with him back in January nineteen eighty eight something that you and Mr had both raised before, namely that what goes into the brochure is not to be relied on you've got to look at the solicitors correspondence, to interpret what is in the brochure, did you?, did you ever raise that with Mr the solicitor's correspondence? I don't recall that being a subject of my conversation, er is the answer no you didn't raise it with Mr ? er we were given very little opportunity to raise anything with Mr is the answer you did not raise it with Mr ? only because there was no opportunity Huh, er just, please help us, you know we get on much better, of course you can give an explanation, all Mr wants, you requested is said whether you did raise it, of course you could say, we didn't, I didn't because erm of so and so, because there wasn't an opportunity or whatever, but do tell us whether yes or no whether you raised it surely that's possible Mr isn't it?, isn't it?, am I trying to assist you, during my people are just not answering the questions, put it again in blunt form Mr would you please well the questions a very simple one, back in January nineteen eighty eight, on any occasion you spoke to Mr either before or after the first article did you ever raise this question with the solicitors letter? no thank you we give it if you say why? will you turn to page find one, thirty four,What we're looking at is the accounts for Westcliff on Sea, the year ending thirty first of August nineteen ninety two, last year correct look please at item four, on page one, three, four second paragraph,the contingency fund is designed to provide funds in order to pay for major repairs or replacements which may arise in the future these accounts do not include the contingency fund despite strong recommendations from , can you explain please Mr ? yes the residence association at er did not agree to the introduction of a contingency fund I see, so you weren't able to have a contingency fund at there is one there now, but we weren't able at the time, no at the time had you been strongly recommending it since eighty eight? we, eighty eighty to eighty nine as I yeah say can't recall, we would have been recommending contingency fund you you would yes yes I understand Mr very much. You erm stay with T one, three, four please just so that we er understand the point you're making and I would ask you if you'd be so kind as to keep your voice well up. These are the er accounts that Mr put to you, are they audited accounts? Yes they are are they provided for the residence at each residence gets a copy we can see at the bottom of one, three, four bearing in mind that these are the August nineteen ninety two accounts, we see at the top of one, three, four that there have in fact been an adjustment there for the previous year to August nineteen ninety one so that there was in fact an amount of surplus created to the residence of a hundred and eight pounds, eighty P, is that right? that's correct so that the budgeted estimate for the previous year had been too high and there is an adjustment in favour of the residence for the following year that's correct when you've got a budget for an oncoming year, assuming you and I are here together in November ninety three and we're preparing a budget up till November ninety four, can you ever have precise figures which will be accurate to the last pound? no, simply because it is an estimate so that's your budget estimate, when we get to November nineteen ninety four you and I together we will then find out what has happened in practice correct in this particular twelve month period your budget estimate would be wrong in that you needed to pay the residence back a hundred and eight pounds that's correct well then, let's stick with contingency fund shall we?you've told us that you wish to have a contingency fund among others at that's correct a contingency fund will be a fund available for any particular unforeseen occurrence in the future unforeseen or, or knowing expenditure, what is unforeseen is when the expenditure is going to occur exactly, but who has to pay in to the contingency fund if it's agreed by the residence? the residence have to pay so their charges would go up if you had to have a contingency fund? correct does that go up as part of the management charge or part of the service charge which is not related to management? it would go up as part of the service charge, the management charge would not change as a result exactly Are you leaving the accounts Mr ? er my Lord I was going to can I just ask him one question about it, erm, I'm not an accountant and you probably, I'm sure you know a lot more about accounts than I do, but in fact if you look at the revenue accounts for the year we're talking about ended August nineteen ninety two at page a hundred and thirty two, do you see that? yes I do you see there are two columns, the second column is budget, that right? yes and the first column, although it's not headed is, presumably actual expenditure, would that be right? er yes good, and if you rummaged over the details, if you look at the bottom er, you'll see er account, total costs a hundred thousand, sixty hundred and forty four pounds budget ninety six, eight, seven, four, so that er there in fact it looks as though the actual costs were something erm nearly four thousand pound er more than the budget, do you see? yes er, if you just to avoid doubt, it looks as though, as we presume we go back to one, three, four that's less than the income was the revenue from things like the guest room and er the lounge and so on , you see? that's correct so there you, you get on the accounts you get a, a er, apparently, income er extension of the scheme budget by nearly four thousand pounds, three, eight, then you go back with what Lord was asking you about and I just want you to explain it if you can, if you can't tell me, as he drew your attention to surplus per audited account at August ninety nineteen one, a hundred and eight, eighty, so that, in fact the year ending nineteen ninety two, along these accounts we're dealing with, in fact the expenditure of exceeded budget by nearly four thousand, the previous year er in nineteen ninety one er it had gone the other way that er that's is is that how I understand how it worked entirely right so you're talking about, the, the little note at the bottom of nine, of page one, three, four is not dealing with accounts er that relate to nineteen ninety two, which the rest of the three pages are, but dealing with the previous year, is that right? it's, it's for the previous years accounts, yeah yes it is can we just erm clarify that Mr , of course it's dealing with the previous years accounts, but until you get to the end of the previous year are you going to know whether you've over or under est estimated on budget? no, it's the same situation until you've complete the financial year and you audit the accounts you don't know precisely what the situation is so if at the bottom of page one, three, four there is the benefit to the residence of a hundred and eight pounds, when does that come into consideration in the year ending August nineteen ninety one, or the year ending August nineteen ninety two? they, they would normally of er received that during the year ending August nineteen ninety two thank you. We also see on page one, three, four and this is something you also mentioned Mr that if you've got certain costs they will be covered and you gave a number of examples, one of them you said, er, we were covered by insurance yes now we can see that at one, three, four, about a third of the page down, can't we? yes now who actually insured the premises that the residence live in we insurance the premises on behalf of the residence you insurance them centrally as it were and each resident has to pay part of the insurance cost? through the service charge, yes thank you, is that through the service charge or through the management charge? through the service charge thank you and we see here that erm one thousand eight hundred and fifty six pounds had been claimed, that one thousand eight hundred and fifty six pounds thirteen had been received so the insurance cover had paid correct you mentioned another protection which is the N H B C, that's, National House Building Council guarantee how long does that run for when a scheme, from the commencement of a scheme? ten years now at the end of the day, whatever your own views about a contingency fund are, bearing in mind that it's service, not management charged, if the residence don't agree can you simply dictate to them that they've got to have a contingency fund? er, I'd believe in theory we could because the lease provides us or gives us the opportunity to do so, but we would not go against the wishes of the residence thank you. Now on the management charge which is what I want to ask you about, cos that's what you've said in the brochure, on the management charge, did you deliberately set the management charge too low to hook the punters? absolutely not shall we just look at one or two erm documents that you've already looked at please, would you go to page twenty nine, just the illustration that seen and this is the I'm not sure whether a point is going to be made about this or not, but if you look at page thirty one there there's a golf club on the left and a man fishing on the right this is a golf club? beg your pardon? it's a golf club? er, er I'm sorry we haven't had any evidence of that yet I thought it was suggested that yes, but he said he never, it was suggested but oh I'm sorry I asked Mr has great powers but he can't give evidence on this case not on this occasion no let's assume that Mr is right in the suggestion he put to you about the building on the left, that it's a golf course and we can see for ourselves without any evidence there's a man fishing on the lake at the bottom there, were you trying to suggest that as part of the deal at a lake would be provided or a golf club? no of course not well what's the point of the lake?, that's what's been worrying me, I was going to ask Mr what is the punter supposed to see? what do people do when they retire among other things, by way of amenities? they play golf and go fishing thank you and if you walked around to look at the flat, would you find a lake and whacking big golf course in the middle of it? no now let's erm just go on to something perhaps that's more to the point, you were asked on a number occasions er what information was given and so for and when, er can you see in fact on some of these documents that the brochures are indeed dated?, just look at er please, you can see that it's a printed brochure it's got a number of er additions and then we look at page thirty seven boldly state you have that as twenty sixth March eighty five, don't you? correct are you be able to tell us would that page at twenty six m , eighty five be part of the original brochure or part of something which erm was later brought out?, looking at the type and the print in the brochure, if you can't help us just say I couldn't be sure on that point look at erm page forty would you please, this is at if you look at page forty one there you've got people playing bowls at the top there, maybe another retirement activity and at the bottom of the page forty two it's dated nine eighty five correct so that indicates print date of September eighty five? yes now unfortunately at page forty two there's a sticker originally that says forty two, but just let's look at that shall we?, cos you were asked about what was said to people and what they might know or understand,while these particulars are prepared with all due care and the word that's been stuck over is convenience while these particulars are prepared with all due care for the convenience of intended purchases, the information contained therein is intended as a preliminary guide only correct did you know that was in the brochure?, that it was a preliminary guide only? yes and do we find that in fact on the other brochures, for instance at page fifty two, I don't want to go through them all, I'm only giving an example or two, page fifty two there you see, a sticker unfortunately er obscured in part, same words, bottom of fifty two,while these particulars are prepared with all due care for the convenience of the intend purchasers, the information contained therein is intended as a preliminary guide only correct now if someone therefore becomes interested in one of the developments, would they be any doubt buying the houses without having a solicitors assistance? that would be most unusual and even if they did buy without a solicitors assistance, what was the system about sending them the letter which we've looked at earlier which is at erm D one, five, two, remember this is the letter that goes to Mr solicitors assuming you get a very rare person who does his or her own conveyance it would does that letter still go them? it would have gone to them and, rather to their solicitor, yes one of the things at the bottom of one, five, two is the N H B C agreement that you mentioned with Mr yes so let's just look again at one, five, three please you see you were asked about whether or not the brochure would be updated and when it might be updated, in what particulars circumstances, do you remember Mr ? yes I do shall we just look at er item four on one, five, three, because this is er sent out on the seventeenth of June eighty five, right, see that at page one, five, two, and it says at four the service charge, the estimated service charge for these flats for the year ending thirty one August eighty five is and then the flats are set out there, three hundred and eighty two, five, seven, five and seven, six, four, that's all in respect of because we know this was an flat, we can see that from page one, five, two, but when, whether or not the brochure is updated when that letter goes out to their solicitors, have you seen other similar letters of this sort going out? yes it's pretty well a standard letter that goes out and if you're for instance dealing with a purchaser who's interested in buying around about December what was the system that you had about saying what the service charges might be?, I mean do you relate to the brochure necessarily or does the no letter relate, does the letter relate to the time of purchase? well the letter would relate to the time of purchase thank you and it said there in apportionment, page one, five, three again,calculated from the date of legal completion to the end of the then current half year, will be collected on completion, please note that these are estimated only and will be retrospectively adjusted when audited accounts are available now we've seen the reflection of that in practice this morning haven't we? correct on the accounts for yes You were asked whether you told Mr about the solicitors letter yes did he ever ask you about what information was given to solicitors? no would there of been any problem at all in your providing it? none what so ever would you have been willing to provide it? yes how long was your conversation with Mr ? approximately ten to fifteen minutes had you had any opportunity to prepare yourself for the sort of questions he might be asking? no, none when you offered a meeting which does not seemed to be in dispute, either you're travelling to London or making yourselves available in Corma were you offering a ten minute conversation or were you anticipating that you would be able to deal with any questions he might have? we were anticipating being able to explain in detail the entire procedure relating to accounting when you say the entire procedure, would that of included or not a solicitors letter which is set out? yes it would have done did he show any interest at all in having those details provided for him? he, he did not agree to a meeting did he give you a reason why not?, did he say why? because he had a deadline to meet did he ever explain to you what the urgency of having to have the article in on the following Saturday was?, did he ev , did he ever tell you anything? er no, not, he didn't explain the urgency You spoke about what was said in the brochure that management charges had been or would be running at about a rate of inflation, we can see it on page fifty six, it's better if you look at it I think, rather than I parrot phrase, see fifty six if you so kind now see fifty six is talking about at Broadstone will the management charges greatly increase the answer is no management service, er, sorry has appointed U K leading management specialist for several reasons, firstly because of their professional caring attitude, secondly because time has shown that management charges, rises the rate either slightly below or at the levelled inflation when that brochure was produced in respect of that development was that statement true or was it not? it was true you were asked a few questions about the contingency fund, was setting up the contingency fund, had it got any connection at all with the Daily Telegraph article? none what so ever the Daily Telegraph article comes out in January eighty eight, was the updating or the answering of the brochures periodically anything to do with the Daily Telegraph article? it was not had the updating gone on at all before the Daily Telegraph article came out?which is in nineteen eighty eight yes did Mr ask you any of the questions about updating or the historical pattern that had been shown by management charges? no was there any discussion about the difference between the service charges and the management charge? not at that time I recall When you're dealing with people who may want to buy retirement homes, er how do you describe them?, they've been described by Mr as the punters you see, how'd you, what do you call them? precedence, or prospective purchasers at the time is that the way that treated people?, calling it hooking the punters? not at all, they were customers have you ever heard the word or the phrase hooking the punters, either at or or ? never if somebody comes as a resident to one of the developments that you now presently run are they there normally for years or for months? they're normally there for years if they're normally there for years, is there any purpose at all in trying to deceive them before they go and live there? there wouldn't seem to be any purpose it, wouldn't be right my Lord how that under my cross examination I don't know, I've never suggested that he was trying to deceive any resident no, I, there's get, a little confusion coming into this case I think, I'm not blaming anybody, as I understand your case Mr as put to er as put to Mr , you have expressly disavowed any suggestion to this witness that there was any deliberate attempt to deceive any prospective purchaser that is correct what you, your case is as I understand it, I've only intervened cos I think the question didn't dis perhaps a lack of understanding this by Lord allow me to say so, what you're saying is that erm, in fact, although not intentionally you're prepared to accept the format of the brochure in relation to the on going charges was such as could reasonably be said by your newspaper to have mislead prospective purchasers that is so that is the point of the case and now the avoidance of doubt, when you've got to another aspect of the case quite different, namely the claim for special damages, you were suggesting to Mr that there, there was a deliberate attempt to and after all whereas you might not like my er use of the to swing on to the Daily Telegraph yes er the costs which would have been paid in any event that's all the case is your Lord, your Lordship's got it absolutely right I, I understand that my Lord, I yes but you were, forgive me Lord you were asking him about deliberate er deceit or there wouldn't be any point in deliberately, get the exact word, misleading the prospective purchaser of course because that's the way that the plaintiff's claim has and, and, and that's why oh yes I understand it and that's why it's A, sorry, that's why it's A relevant and B important right, well, I'm, I'm not worried about the point as to whether it arise out of cross examination, I seldom am because there is always erm can be an opportunity for further cross examination if the other party wants to, so er on the grounds of the objection I, I, I don't uphold it you can ask that if you like, but er I do want the jury always to keep their eye on that what really is the issue in the case er certainly from the defendants point of view, I know what you say but, erm the issue from the plaintiffs point of view of course is erm just well you say the article meant that your clients were being accused of deliberate deceit certainly and in the end the jury will have to say which of the two versions of the meaning they except and thereafter decide whether or not the meaning is made out correct, good, now, so ask your, do ask your question my Lord I've asked it and the witness has answered in fact oh, good, huh, I assumed the answer was no it was I was listening to Mr , yes, thank you yes, thank you Mr would you step down please thank you er one that occurs to me, no, no speaking on it myself, the jury might be interested, sometime I just like to get a feel of what a brochure looks like, not divided as it obviously has to be here, could, could we see a couple sometime, not, not now yes and then the jury, I can pass them to the jury, now then, sorry no, no, my Lord I have three applications to make in the light of the evidence given by Mr yesterday and this witness today, er the first is this in terms of this witnesses evidence, I don't know whether your Lordship appreciated it, but I certainly did in terms of evidence, that in cases of some brochures there were a number of editions, in other words first, second and maybe third edition well certainly I believe Mr he, I don't think he went into the same detail as Mr I, but Mr certainly left me the impression that some at least of the brochures were, went into more than one addition, yes er, my Lord there has not been disclosed by the plaintiffs anything more than one copy of the brochure for each site we've got in the my Lord might I therefore formally call for disclosures of each addition of the brochures that the jury have them well erm you can't no doubt do that at this moment, but I, I think it's as Mr undoubtedly said, quite apart from anything Mr said er, if there are a several addition er which strangest with the relation to the er important part from our point of view, or an important part mainly these residence on going charges, that sounds reasonable good, er I think that's right, in fact erm a large number of brochures were in fact on our list of documents yes erm disclosed erm there are dates on some of them as I established yes in evidence well could that be further looked into oh certainly and any any copies of that any suggestion because I think the jury would be interested particularly with the dates on them, but even if there aren't compare the figures in different editions certainly, and my Lord my problem is I'd liked to see them before I cross-examine Mr the er, the next witness cos he, he was the the officer in charge of brochures, er I don't know whether the defendants can get, the plaintiffs can get them before but er, I mention it now, the second application my Lord, er your Lordship recalls that Mr evidence is at a meeting of , he brought up his concerns about the accuracy of the inflation sentence in the brochure and a board meeting in , no board meeting to that effect has been disclosed no minutes you mean no minute and I call for and ask your Lordship to order the production of any board minute meeting recording that concern of Mr yeah and more for completion the third application is this, yesterday Mr referred in his evidence not yesterday I beg your pardon, the last time before yes, the day before yesterday the day before, er Mr referred to in his evidence, you may remember to a company called mm the employer and I asked him what documents they produced, what report they produced we have written a letter about it, but I formally call for any report or document from and the second thing he mentioned were letters from about twelve members of parliament that they received well I think he did say those ought to be in their file my Lord he said that, that they should be but I, I, I call yeah for production of those letters from the twelve members of parliament Lord you can't deal with that er at the snap of the fingers obviously, but I think you'd agree that er going from the number three upwards that if there is any reports from management er and if the letters from the members of parliament still exist in your clients file, they would be disclosable well my Lord I, I simply don't know, erm er no, if they don't exist so be it I simply, I simply can't deal with the question because some of these are, are raised now for the first time no I'm not, I'm sorry I said some of them are raised now for the first time, I was about to say I'm not complaining I'm simply pointing out, standing here without the instructions I can't deal with the matter no, of course you can't now, but will you have enquiries made and if er, there are an existence of twelve members of parliament ledgers, any report from crisis management and any erm, any er, er minute of a board meeting er at er directors at which the contingency er, at the contingency fund was discussed or recor any recording of value, having enquiries make sure that they exist and then tell me er if, if, if you're prepared to disclose them my Lord sir that's all yes I don't expect you to do it before Monday anyway no, no, my Lord of course I do yes, I didn't think you'd make any objection at all cos no I'm not I'm not suggesting for a moment it doesn't cross my mind nor has Mr suggested that there has been any er deliberate failures to disclose something which was thought was, which you've got and was thought relevant, but it, things do turn out to be potentially relevant in the course of the court appearance well I I'm happy to have those enquiries there thank you , well you know the three categories, now what about erm, er, I'm very anxious to proceed today as far as we can, what about Mr er remind me erm reading with two and three er I'm afraid I've forgotten exactly what you, oh I know you wanted to know Mr, er before cross examine Mr you want to know about all the additions of the various brochures, is that right? my Lord the officer is he's the wonderful from who is closest to the brochures and therefore mm responsible for er, I never realized until the witness gave evidence, the last witness that there were different additions oh well I, I think it did, it did emerge but not so clearly, but it did emerge in Mr evidence my Lord be that as it may, if there are one, two or three additions of the same brochures, of the same development, clearly we, we should be entitled to oh all that's been disclosed is one as far as I know, erm your Lordship can see that I at some stage need to have a look at them, er before I complete in any way so I can cross examine Mr er my Lord may I just say this, on the seventeenth of November, that's two days ago, we asked for the documents of the necessary twelve M P's two days ago yes, but, er I'm not complaining about it, but I say I didn't raise it for the first time no, well, some of them might have been, don't do squabble about that no, no, my Lord I have raised for the first time the board minute yes er my Lord it wasn't, I wasn't raising it for the purpose of your Lordship mentioned, er namely er er about er contingency fund, though indeed will be entitled to that, I raised a question of the minute, the board minute, to do with the concerned with Mr rest of the meeting about the placement mm that's why I was asking them for, I just want to make it plain my Lord thank you but my Lord that subject to that er I don't think we'll loose time because I'm sure by the time Lord has examined er Mr I'm going to reserve a little bit of cross examination, which is Monday mm, mm in any event members of the jury I, I forgot to mention to you earlier, er, thank you Mr you probably feel a wisdom of this having done several days of this case, two and a half hours is just about as long as anybody can be expected to sit and listen to evidence and er, what I was going to do, and I hope it doesn't inconvenience anybody, I was going, instead of going on for three hours till one o'clock, I was gonna break off about half past twelve to about half past one, to break up the day as you know, I hope that's alright, so what we'll do we'll go on now and, and I'm sure, I think it's doubtful if you would have got to that point by half past twelve, and then you and Lord sort it out and your learned duties as much as you can in the adjournment and then tell me afterwards what the brochure position is, I'm sure you've no objection to disclosing any brochures that you've got that erm, or can get er which relate to that point a lot of brochures have been disclosed yes difference that for instance erm there were four house brochures there you are they've, they've been disclosed, it's eight, nine and ten they may they may have been in your list of documents, but copies of them may or may not of been handed over but simply don't know well could you try and sort that out of course when we have a break, preferably midday, alright so, I don't want to ask you to alter your chosen order of witnesses you see, er but equally we want to get on if we can oh entirely I know, I must see, you think or Mr can go on, right let's have Mr Mr and get as far as we can and break off about half past twelve for an hour Could you hold the book in your right hand Just a minute, no, no, please just while those people, just the wrong moment to leave court, they should never yes, try again hold the book in your right hand and repeat the oath after the I swear by almighty god I swear by almighty god that the evidence I shall give that the evidence I shall give shall be the truth shall be the truth the whole truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth and nothing but the truth thank you Mr take a seat would you keep your voice up also please certainly towards the jury, thank you. What's your full name and your address please? Kevin erm is that in Dorset? that is, yes how old are you now? forty three what's your present occupation? I'm a self employed marketing consultant just a little about your background please, I think you went to Dundee Polytechnic yes did you er obtain a Diploma in marketing in nineteen seventy five there? not there it was at er another college which was? thank you I think you're a fellow at the institute of marketing that's correct and er you have on occasions, at various times, lectured on marketing at various institutes of education including Bournemouth university that is correct, I am currently doing that as well thank you. When did you first become connected with any organization in the group? nineteen eighty four which company did you go and work for? in nineteen eighty four there, there was only the one company they hadn't divisionalized, so I joined er company in nineteen eighty four what as? er a group marketing manager did you stay in that position or do you erm change? in nineteen eighty six I think it was the company divisionalized and I was promoted to sales and marketing director of the erm, I think it was the developments division, which was, was the retirement housing division so that's that's correct in er nineteen ninety one did you become marketing sales director for the whole group and a main board director? that is correct now in nineteen eighty seven, what did your job involve? well as a divisional sales and marketing director I had two particular jobs, one would be erm in developing if you want the alteration of sales and marketing and the other one would be looking at overall strategic in sales and marketing did you have people working under you? I had at that time, and I'm trying to recall probably two or three people working directly for me, yes Mr told us about regional offices, about how many of those were there in nineteen eighty seven? I think at that time there were seven regional offices would they also fall under your general control? no, not directly, each regional office would have a regional M D, managing director, who would actually be on the board, the divisional board with me, each regional M D would then have his own regional board on which there would be er finance er finance director, sales and marketing director, construction director, land director, not all of them, all seven had that board immediately, some developed that board, grew that board over a couple of years apart from being marketing director for developments, er did you also deal with marketing of other aspects of the group? well not directly, erm because the whole purpose of the divisionalization was to put the skill and expertise into each division, at the initial stage of erm divisionalization there were no other marketing people immediately in those other divisions, I was occasionally called on to assist but progressively as they built up there own marketing expertise then my needs were less, they needed me less. in nineteen eighty seven were you familiar with the advertising budget and the advertising spend of and ? yeah prior to the Daily Telegraph article in January nineteen eighty eight, had or or had they been in the habit of spending large amounts of money on national publicity? most definitely not Mr er I think I saw a smile there, why were you smiling? because part of the reason why were very successful and profitable was because they're very cagey on money we spend and on, on the resources erm, they had been advertising but it was on a very small limited regional budget, national advertising is actually, they'd of been a or too what was Mr attitude to spending on national advertising in so far as you could work it out? we didn't think it was necessary and not necessary at that time, we were success advertising regionally. Er, were you familiar with the brochures that were distributed? yes who's responsibility was the contents of the brochures? well there was two parts to the brochure, erm, the, there was the general part within the brochure about eighty percent of the brochure was general for every development, the other twenty percent which would prefer specifically to that development, so there was a corporate field to the brochure, but for each development it would have it's individual flavour, that would show pictures of the locality for example, hence the golf and the erm lake and the erm specific costs of running that, that responsibility would be the responsibility then of the region putting in, cos obviously at the centre I wouldn't know whether there was a golf course in that area or not. er, could you have erm the, agreed in front of you please and just look at C thirty that's erm you can see the golf club in this one, at er the page thirty one and the man sitting on the lake at the top of thirty one, yes, I think we know the brochures, we've got erm leisure pursuits like bowls, that sort of thing. Who would actually draw up the wording of the brochure? The wording referring to the specific location in the location description would by definition have to be drawn up the region, cos they would have intimate knowledge of the locality that er sorry and the costs would be drawn up by the region because they would know as I say intimately they would know that specific development would you er still look at page thirty one please dealing with er , top right under the are there hidden costs?, the answer to this is definitely no and then there are charges set out there, there's the freehold security set up there and then the only other costs would be your apartment, local authority rates, individual electricity costs, even if this means too low there's a freehold security set up there and then the only other costs would be your apartment, local authority rates, individual electricity costs, even if this means too low, small charge for using guest bedroom, use to keep the general running costs as low as possible, and then underneath them there's a block service apartment costs, all maintenance, warden and management services, freehold security and then personal costs in an estimated weekly total, er did you know that that went into the brochure? yes Could you look also please at page fifty six in the same tag which is home which was forty nine, it carries on to fifty six, we can see there you've got the same thing but you've got a drawing there and not a photograph of something that's in the area, Court Castle in Dorset I see will the management charges greatly increase page fifty six, the answer is no and then we've read this several times, did you know that was in the brochure? that photograph, yes one of the things said there is,time has shown the management charges rise at a rate either slightly below or at the level of inflation, a fine record not easily beaten what, what do you say about whether or not that was accurate in nineteen eighty five for instance? it wouldn't of been put in if it hadn't been accurate at the time now reverting again please if you would to the one we first looked at which is er , see the costs set out on page thirty one there and we can see under personal costs with the star that refers please note that these charges are an average and depend on personal electricity consumption and are subject to verification and local authority assessment , er did you understand the difference between the management charge and the service charge? yes can you ever control the service charge component to make it level with inflation as opposed to the management charges? no I would have said no thank you. Did you yourself come to know about the article in the Telegraph? yes prior to that article January eighty eight, was it being your personal desire for about whether or not in the year nineteen eighty seven going into the nineteen eighty eight or to have national or wider advertising, your personal view my personal view was that we, we should have some form of, two things, one is communicating the realities of the situation, it's a fairly new market, there was a lot of competitors in the market, coming into the market, there was a lot of confusion in the market there was a lot of confusion in the market as to exactly what it was that customer could buy, there was also a lot of confusion of as to, cos there are different types of customer, and over sixty five, there are about seven different categories, there was a need for someone and I believe it should therefore have been the market leader at that time to if you want to establish principals, establish what they, this was in the market and establish what the elderly would be, would, should look for when purchasing a retirement apartment. and what was your desire in nineteen eighty seven before the Telegraph article, about increasing on spending advertising, keeping it the same or decreasing? well I, I wanted therefore to put take project into the national press and to promote the product, given that that was the larger product in the market place and therefore if you want that would set the standards for the rest of the market place, that's what I, I felt we needed to do that with the increasing number of competitors moving into market place but in nineteen eighty seven that expansion of advertising and therefore ad advertising costs in what were you thinking of in terms of roughly in nineteen eighty seven? oh I can't, I can't remember, sorry are we talking about tens of thousands, or hundreds of thousands or what? if it was the national advertising campaign and knowing and er basically then, I wouldn't of thought I'd be talking anything above a hundred thousand, I would and, and I can't remember the exact figure but given no I understand the situation I wouldn't of thought I could of got away with anything much more than that did you propose in nineteen eighty seven as an increase advertising spend in specific terms I can't remember, I would have certainly of said that for the year er nineteen eighty eight we should build into our budget an amount, what that amount was I can't remember, but er that was, that was never given the go ahead how was it dealt with internally?, I mean you have the idea, you want to expand advertising, which means you've got to spend more money and you said it was never given the go ahead, who at the end of the day would decide about whether it had the go ahead or not? well the board would which board? er, first of all I would put it to my divisional board to my colleagues to ask for their thoughts and their advice erm, if they rejected it then it wouldn't go any further, if they approved it then it, because it was a budgetary item rather than just we can go out and spend it tomorrow, it was going into the following years budget, it would then go to the P L C board and they would have final say in whether that element should go into the, into next years budget and who is chairman of the board, who had the final say? John so that was not given the go ahead in nineteen eighty seven that's correct I therefore need to ask you about the article and what happened subsequently. Now you saw the article? yes it came out on a Saturday, do you remember where you saw it? yes, I was on a coach to the boat show erm at Earls Court when, when I read it was it on the day of publication? I think it must of been, it had to be on a Saturday I believe yes yes, that would have been the day of publication now we already know that there was a meeting which was called fairly promptly for the Monday of the following week which would have been the eleventh, did you attend that meeting? yes Mr has told us there were well over twenty people there was the article discussed then? that was the purpose of the meeting did you yourself have to do anything follow the art following the article? following the article or following the meeting?, that meeting you're quite right following that meeting which was after the article I'm not sure there were too many decisions actually made at that meeting why was that? because at that meeting you can imagine that twenty people gathering then you end up not really making any decisions, far too many people, there was a lot discussed and aired and it concerns expressed and it was a case, and I'm going from recollection here, it was really a case of let's go away and think about it and calm down and look at it rationally er, we've already seen a press release which was put out as prompt step, what was your own view about what should be done after the Daily Telegraph article and it's comments about ? well I think that, that the, the sending out of the press release immediately was, was quite correct, because obviously people had ride that, sorry people may have read that and something therefore had to be said, my personal view was that really this article is you had, if you like had undone everything that we had been trying to do, erm and put us in a bad light and it maybe my Scottish background, but I don't like people calling in to question my motives and the companies motives, erm and I felt that it went straight to what we were really standing for, given what I explained about my thoughts in nineteen eighty seven, it was hitting straight to the core of the whole proposition and everything that stood for, erm and that is what was the great concern and because it wasn't just like a, a mild slap in the face it was more like a knife in the ribs, it was therefore required a lot more thinking about as to the reaction that we would then have to come up with. Did you yourself give thought to the action that you thought would be required? yes what conclusion did you come to? oh I came, came to several conclusions, erm, one, one of the problems that the article faced me with, if it had been a simple outburst, if, if the, the Daily Telegraph had simply taken an advert out as opposed to maybe editorials then I may of had less a problem, because the problem with editorials is that they are believed, companies adverts aren't believed, well they're partially believed, but an editorial carries a lot more weight and therefore when it's written like that it tends to strike home much harder, therefore that, my immediate thoughts were that if were going to react, if we were going to find a way of cantering the problems we felt this had created, then we would not have to follow any normal course of action, we simply couldn't put an advert out because nobody would have believed it, we would have to look at it a different way of actually cantering and that's part of the reason for the time taking to think it through. Would you please go to tag L two, six, six to begin with just to lead you into the chronology, you have told us that in August nineteen eighty seven, er there was really no interest in national budgeting, er national advertising budget, we can see this is a memorandum from you Kevin dated the fourth of August and you're sending out to the regional marketing executives, there's no national advertising next year which would be eighty eight. Again marketing budget at two, six, seven, the point made there again, numbered item one in the bottom third no national advertising and then two sixty eight, this is a meeting of the twenty fifth of February nineteen eighty eight, present including Mr and yourself today I send that's Mr pointed out that so far our reaction to the recent media criticism had been totally defensive in future these actions to be defended, but then attacked in order to regain our credibility were you indeed present at that meeting of the twenty fifth of erm February? yes in February had your own thoughts begun to cristalize about what needed to be done in response to the article? yes what had your thoughts sir cristalize as? well my thoughts had cristalized that we would have to change the direction of er, we communicating with them as we've done in the past, we couldn't just use adverts that we might have used regional in a regional press, we had to pick out the point, in the, in the actual article so that four example there were six or seven points that had clearly been made, statements that had been made, I had to devise a scheme then, er, it was only a scheme in my thinking that actually, I had to devise a scheme that would pick up each of these points encounter them, now there was no way I could simply take an advert out and say, they said this, we say that because that would have had no credibility, so what I was thinking at that time is how we might be able to use some other form of being able to counter those six or seven points and I started to come up with an idea perhaps using a third party, because in our business, third party recommendation are very, very powerful and when selling to the elderly because they do not take, I'm sorry, they take a long time to come to a decision, they mull over it and such like, they take a lot of influence from people, take advise from family, accountants, solicitors, bank managers and such like, so the idea of having a third party in a sense recommend then would have allowed us to get over those particular points, so that's what was germinating in my mind at the time and is that the thinking that lies behind the eventual getting of Terry Wogan and Angela Rippon? that is correct that's in an interview format isn't it? in the yes advertisement, and do they actually sit down in an interview or is that simply the way that the advertisement is projected well what in actual fact happened, it's not easy to get Terry Wogan at a moments notice to come and sit down, what in actual fact happens is that we draw up exactly what it is, that, that he would be saying and what the answer will be, he sees that and it's totally approved, understandably he's not gonna put his name to anything that he doesn't believe is, is correct and that is how it's done and I understood though I mean it, it looks from many of these er publications as though it's meant to convey that Mr and Mr Wogan are sitting down and having a conversation or Ms Rippon isn't it?, that's how it's presented, is that right? yes but it didn't, but, that isn't actually, that isn't what happened you're saying now it's meant to show that Terry Wogan is asking John a question and John is answering the question sorry I don't want to take, erm of course out of hand Thank you all for coming, I know that it's, it just shows how interested some of us are that you are coming in on such a nice day as this to hear Doreen Griffiths’ The Cinderella Army’or the Land Army, and I must say just reading these bits up here now, I've got lots of questions I want to ask her when she's finished, so we'll let her tell I might run on so much you'll have to stop me It's open-ended at the end so we can all talk, you know have a discussion, continue your interesting conversation. But one thing, on behalf of the museum services, I would like to thank Doreen Griffiths for the help she gave us in our exhibition,’ Memories of Change’, which you can see in the exhibition room over there, and she contributed a lot of photographs, and her memories, and allowed herself to be taped and have her memories in our archive, and for that we give her a great thank, because it's not always easy for the, sometimes for the first time to begin talking into a tape-recorder, so we thank her very much, and thank you very much for coming in and performing for us today! This is lot worse! This is a lot worse than talking into a tape-recorder! And there's coffee available. Do you want to have coffee now? Okay, well, the thing is why was there a women's army, we all know that. In wartime food had got to be produced, and all the young men were off the land, somebody'd got to grow the food to feed this country and it was getting a bit desperate, because, old Hitler, he was no fool. He couldn't invade us, he was going to starve us and erm starve us into submission. And he could have, he could have, because, then we were importing about three quarters of our food from overseas, there was depression all the time in the thirties, and we weren't growing anything near the amount of food that we needed. It was coming over from the Empire, the colonies, as you know, and masses of grain coming in from America and Canada. So of course they Germans set about trying to sink the ships. The U boats in the Atlantic, despite the fact that they were convoys, and protected by the . We lost an awful lot of merchant vessels, and in any case we wanted those boats to bring armaments across, not food. So we'd just jolly well got to grow enough to feed us. So of course,’ Dig for Victory’signs all over the place, you know everything was dug up: parks and gardens — everything, and a lot of the workmen had to be trained then to grow corn. And this is probably why some of the farmers I know . erm Fields were ploughed up that really never should be ploughed up. Everything was ploughed up. A lot of pasture. Exactly, stock fields that never should have been ploughed were all ploughed to grow this corn. And erm so, of course, the land army came in then and erm 1939, September, I don't know, there were 900 volunteers already. You must know that! That was your year wasn't it? I came in June 1940 and by then there were 9,000, first year, and by 1945 there were 90,000. 90,000 girls working all over Britain. North, South, East and West, as far as you could go. How did they go about recruiting them? We were volunteers. For myself, I used to be, I don't know, my own experience now was that I was a commercial artist in Bristol, was I? I was in Gloucestershire twice before I came into Oxfordshire. I was a commercial artist in Bristol. I refused to be the tracer for the aeroplane company, I said no, I got the job I wanted in an advertising firm. Now that was the time when first daylight on Bristol, and we heard the bombers go up, and I went home out on the tram car,and there were the young ones just screaming down into the city, I said,’ good grief, those bombers have hit something’, and it was Filton Aeroplane, people had direct hits on shelters you see. And of course’ Oh no’, I says to my mother,’I not going to out in advertising, I'm going to join the forces’. My mother said’ No you're not joining the forces!’ So, erm she wanted me you see. So, erm how old were you? Nineteen. So funnily enough, the girl that I made friends with when I was a tracer, Penny, erm she came to see me in land army uniform you see, and I said,’ Right, if I can't go in the forces, I'll join the land army’, so I said’alright’. So, down to the Labour Exchange, volunteer, decide which you're going to do: forestry, erm general farming or horticulture, that was the choice. So I chose general farming, and then you chose whether you wanted to go to a farm or and in a hostel, communal. I chose the farm. First the then the uniform, then you go and wait for the envelope to come through the door, and it did, reported us to Agricultural College for a month's training. That's a lark, isn't it! A month's training to be farmer! So we went rough. What we did learn in a month, and that was very essential was milk. I mean Which one did you go to? Winchester. Oh yes, I know. And erm they were determined that we should all work near as proficient in milking to go and take over, so we had to learn to hand milk, to use three different types of milking machines and to do all the necessary sterilizing and everything else, so that we could be used straight away when we got to the farm. And then of course in between milking we did the general work, whatever was going on. First day for me, because I was in the farming was doing afternoon milking the first few days. Six o'clock in the morning, I had to clean out the Danish piggeries. Can you imagine a town girl, at 6 o'clock in the morning, before breakfast, cleaning out the Danish piggeries on a piece of dry bread and cold milk. That was being put in the deep end for a start! Well then, also at dusk, of course, the other thing that made us more tired than ever, the Air Raid siren used to go off at night, so then the oil rooms are checked, and you can hear it going over, and you know how the German planes used to go, but you could hear it going over and of course in that black-out then, they used to in the moon light bright along the river Severn, we used to hear them going over and we used to think’ Are they going to Bristol tonight, or Birmingham or Buckingham; whether you'd want to know’. We were a bit worried because all the glass houses used to show up so much in the moonlight you know. Anyway, nothing happened then, so we were safe there. I don't wish to be rude, would you excuse me I have a bus to get to. I just popped in just to see what was going on. Yes, Okay. I didn't hear you were here, it's all very interesting. I was in the land army. You were? Yes, horticulture at Lady Margaret College. Oh, lovely! Vegetables! Yes Yes, won a prize for my tomatoes at the Woodstock Horticultural Show! Jolly good! Now, we've got a bit about Oxfordshire Horticulture. I think you said you put on a display erm didn't you? No, I didn't. I don't wish to interrupt you, I'm awfully sorry! There you are, Oxfordshire sends in a vegetable show! Ah! that was it! There you are, your name might be there! Yes, I won first prize! Well it must be there then! Tomatoes. No I don't think so, it doesn't matter, but erm See you were mentioned you see! I don't know whether that though. Because the horticultural people always used to say’ You never mention us. It's always the others never talk about us growing the vegetables.’ Yes, well we had to dig from half past nine in the morning until half past five at night non-stop. Sorry I can't stay. It was very interesting. Bye. Okay, Goodbye. Where have I got to? End of the month yes, end of our month's training. Anywhere we could go and milk so, they give us notice to say first farm was name . Now he was down in Somerset: dairy, herding of course, Friesians, and milking about 20 cows, three of us milked in the morning and two in the afternoon, a long cow shed, of course my heart came in my mouth then, under the knees of all the cows. Of course it was lovely when you shut the doors to the cold outside, and there you are in the snug, and warm cow . And erm that was alright. But I soon learnt to get those cows out without messing up my nice clean cow shed, what we used to do, because wanting to get the first one out very quietly, I used to put my hand on the tail, press the tail to the backside and push her out! So that the mess would be outside and not inside. But of course as soon as the first one started the whole lot went, over my cow shed. And we came and took the cows down and we came back weary or what! We knew what that meant, wheelbarrow and shovel, bucket of water and a birch broom. Mine was wearing me wellington boots! You don't have to be behind them when they cough! ’ Ooh, she just gone into grass!’ It's alright, this is something we tend to remember! Fdg: Yes, well! erm That's the cows anyway. The first thing was when I got there, my parents took me up there and the cow man was just coming back from going in with the cows, and he looked across at me in my sparkling white, new uniform, you know, land army girl sort of standing,’ Ah, you be my new mate then!’you should have seen my mother's face! Anyway, I was just amazed by that. He was a good old sort! There were horses on that farm — big, lovely animals aren't they. erm I didn't know anything about horses at all! Ran across and he stood there like this, grin all over his face,’ Harness that old Prince then!’. I said’ Oh yes’and I saw the and he'd kept the collar on, and of course he'd given me the one that tossed his head up didn't he! Why didn't he tell me he'd put the collar on upside down? Well, I was alright, I learnt all about the harness eventually, and there's in the you know, this throwback business when they've been harnessed up. It's all new. They put us in the deep end with everything that came along, you know, you really had to learn by doing it. Well, the horses, well what else, they got a tractor on that farm. That was a big event. Carshes didn't like tractors, them big frightening things, you know, didn't like tractors, and erm I'd be called out in the field then What sort of tractor? Only cultivator, nothing complicated. ’ Could you take over while I go and have my lunch, you see, come on I'll show you what to do’I got on the tractor, he said’turn in and go out round and come in again at the edge.’ And he said’ all you got to do is be careful you don't hit the hedge, you see’. These big cultivators rumbling along. So after about a couple of bouts, I thought, alright, and it suddenly dawned on me I didn't know how to stop the tractor. So that was that. The next farm in place and that was dairy cattle, I had five cows to milk then by hand, but only in the morning. The rest of the time I was with the tractor and general farm work, you see. I lived in the farmhouse, he was a tyrant, gosh, he was a tyrant. I went on the train, there was another girl on the train and we met at Stonehouse Station. There was two farmers that were going to meet us and her farmer was there, and I was chatting, and he was, you know, very pleasant, and’ Who are you going to work for then?’, and I said’Mr So and so’. And he looked at her and he said’ Ah, I'll give her three weeks there!’ . And I thought’ Oh dear, where am I going?’ He arrived in an old banger, it was a big farm you know, 500 acre farm, arable and sheep mostly, and it was a long long way right up to this farm, half way up the hill he was going,’ Gee up then, gee up then.’ I thought’ my God, where am I going? where am I going?’ And of course And anyway, we got there, it was alright, and erm I had to fill this tractor, where it was, of course they're going to make fun of me again, first morning I'd got to get the tractor ready, and you know them, five gallon five gallon, things can happen at the time, and I have been had been supposed to be to get the hole at the top of the can, and not spill it you see. ’ Her ain't going to reach that!’. You know, it was much too big, but I got a stand, you see, got it by the tractor. Then they were waiting for the fun to start. Started the handle you see. I heard him say,’ Her ain't going to manage that! Her ain't going to be able to start that!’ So I determined I got to have a go. I also learned too to put thumb over the top, not underneath, because they can, they do They kick. They do kick, too. All when it started,and off I went, I never looked back, I never looked up at all. They were dying to see something go wrong, you know, they were good old sorts, some of them were odd ones, but a good lot. And erm I had lots of jobs there, what the cruel job there really in the meantime, he was very pleased with my work, so he got another land girl, it was cheap labour. So he raised it through the land army, for the transfer, it was alright with the farmers and everybody else. So I got Peggy up from Somerset, on the same farm you see, and that was much better, and erm we've been cycling to Stroud, to the pictures you know, 8 miles there and 8 miles back, and erm but the awful job he gave me to do for a few days was along, there was a young lad there and he was going to drive the old heavy fords and tractor and I was going to walk behind, and he'd got converted horse drags I suppose they call them Horse Heavy, they've got big handles on them, three of them, and they were drags Ah yes, drags. They were drags, that's right, and they were heavy. And the horse it came up with this long wooden handle, I don't know whether it was three or four, I can't remember, but that was for some couchgrass. I was going to walk behind, and then release the couchgrass in a row across the . So I walked across this ploughed field’ Lift it up, lift it up, lift it up,’you know, all day long. That's the bloke Emos, anyway, Peg and I we had some fun there all the same. The smell of the beet fields . I remember once I got on to Norton because there was this I wanted to get to but I did do some shepherding there, and that was another fun, carrying, and that's a winter job, carrying the sheep hurdling, hurdles and stakes, I worked with a gypsy, a Romany gypsy, and he couldn't speak very much, and tended to sing, as if something not quite right about him. He was a hard worker, and you had to set these pens every time for the sheep you see, well he could carry three hurdles on his back, and I could, five, that's right five, and I could carry three, he carried five. He used to stick the stake in the hurdles and up over your back and the next pound, but the trouble was that you know what that slippery, just what's left of the swede in the ground, when the stubble's trodden in the mud, well the mud and the rain and you've got to carry those, your stakes in the other hand and you've got to get over those hurdles to set the pack. Well I'm not very tall and my legs aren't very long and I could get my first leg over but it was getting that other one over with the hurdle, without leaving your boots behind, that was, that was hard. Anyway, from there we went to Gorkham where we are here with five of us, that was, that was the job, we had a cottage to ourselves. Five girls, and adjoining joining door into the cottage next door, and the shepherd's wife next door used to cook our breakfast and our midday meal. We had to do everything else ourselves. We went into the door of this cottage into a stoned flat space. Is that it at the back? Well, the cottage isn't there unfortunately, no. erm Stairs went up from there, that side there was the bath, in that corner was the copper, does anyone know copper? Yes, the copper. You see where the fire's been. The end of the bath the toilets and the loo which is a little Elsan, we had to empty that, opposite us there was the door into the living room, the hearth of the living room we had an open fire and we . The door went from there into the next cottage, now that was the open space. Once a week bath night, now we do all these dirty jobs, because next door she had her own coal Lashmere cooking you see, and we had to make do with wood, and that entails cutting it ourselves, so our weekend, we worked Saturday mornings; Sunday used to the day we had to do all the cottage work. One girl used to do the housework, one girl used to do all the washing, she needed the water for the hot things. One was milking, and Peggy and I used very often be fetching the wood, we got tractor and trailer into the woods, and the old woodmen used to tell us where the dry wood was we could collect, take it down to the farm, circular saw in the shed, switch the electricity to go on. Saw all the logs of wood up, put it on a trailer it was half a mile away from the cottage, when we came to the cottage door, give a shout, they all came out one after the other, there was a chain, put it under the stairs and that was us fine for about three weeks Yes, well I didn't tell you the best part! that was the best part! No water laid on! There was a pump outside the door! Prime the pump in the morning cold water, that's all we had! That's it! Yes, that's right. Primitive. So we did it all the hard way then, and also the garden you see, we're supposed to grow all our vegetables in the garden, that was outside the cottage, then there was the hedge and the field, and there was a gap down there. So Fanny she says’ Blow this for a lark, I'm not going to dig all this up!’ She said’ We'll make another gap, Come up here’she said’I'll get the tractor and plough’. So she kept going round and round and she ploughed the whole lot up! . That did that! Well, we did all sorts of things, I get, well, Peg and I used to feed the cattle. What's the time now? How much have I got? Oh, you've got about 10 more minutes. That's all right. Now, Peg and I used to do the cattle by the cottage, the beef cattle, I expect you know what Garaleden are, do you? They're the next down on the Highland Horners, they've got some jolly good horns with a tip similar to . And erm it was our turn to feed them before we went to the farm every morning you see. So get in the old shed and then we got a load of swedes, we put it in rack and we come out like chips, chips of raw swede, and then sugar beet pulp, which had come back from the factory. That's right, and erm mix it all together in one big sheet and cut all the corners, and throw it over your shoulder and go and feed these cattle, and they had these circular feed ducks Cribs Cribs that's right, you've got it! Oh, to feed from there was a different matter. And erm but the trouble was as soon as they saw us come, they were right behind us going like this with their horns, you know! This great big thing at our backs! We filled that and while they were eating that we kept the hay, hay, cut it through a rick , a big thin knife, you know, fill the remainder of the racks with the hay, so that by the time they'd gone and finished that they'd gone in to eat the hay, then we'd got the yard free to litter it out, and to straw it on both sides, one would be on the , one down on the bottom to pull straw down into the yard, and that was . We were the first farm in the area, I think, to make silage. And that goes back to the early days of silage. Well, there were these round concrete blocks, with silos at the top, and they used to come in with these loads of scraps, tip it in and you know what we had to do? With a great big cans, you had to fill it with that molasses, and we had to pour this all over the grass and then, shorts, our shorts were cut off breeches you see because then we used to wear them first and we cut off them off to make shorts. Wellingtons and shorts, and we used to pour all this molasses and then tread it in, and we'd go on treading it in until the next load came in, see, we could go on like this all day. Well, you talked about us having prisoners, didn't you, well there was a camp not far from us, got these Italian prisoners to come and do the ditching. Well, they came by in their lorry when we'd only just started you see, of course great’ ooh hahhhh’with their when we're treading in, and erm trouble was, we were still doing when the came along and they yelled out’you prisoner, we free!’ . And that's just how we felt! We used to go in that darn stuff all day long, and you can imagine the pickle we were in, all that sticky molasses. All sticking to you. It was hot, ugh! And that was when we came, and we started hay-making along there to the man-killers we called him, of course there's a better picture here and I've got it here along with the man-killer we caught it up, and we've got someone coming along behind. That was what we call the man-killer. You see the tractor driving it, there's the load, this was gathering up the hay as it went along and it tipped it over and we had to make the loads you see. And we called it the man-killer because we had ridge and furrow land down there, and this darn thing they was taking, and nothing would come over the top for ages, and suddenly the whole lot would come over on top of you, of course it as well,and you had to that's what we were doing. Anyway, that was hay-making, what else were we doing. Did you have sugar beet? Yes. I just worked it out, do you know that was handled five times, those beet, because Pam used to go up and loosen with the plough, and then we come behind and pull it. This is when we all got cut fingers,you know that, you cut it just right the crown, and you try to be quick, we all got these marks on the forefinger, sugar beet and swede, you know you took a swede and put it on the heap in one go, you know, well, with sugar beet you had to be more careful, didn't you, you cut the crown And that was always in the very cold weather That's right! When your hands get frozen. Terrible! and you make a heaps of the field and then that's the first handling, and then these heaps had to be loaded on to a trailer and then they were all dumped in a big heap at the bottom of the drive, and then we wait till there was a truck for each Stow station and load it all up again, and do you know there's those forks with big Cumberland Cross on the end, and we'd load those up, take them to Stow station, and unload it into the waggon. And there were heavy too, I mean, they were a bit small. Wide, yes, about that wide, with the knots on the end. Right, I doubt if there's many girls can lift them today. They were heavy! Yes, I know, but erm that was sugar beet now, of course we got to clomp back, with feed, do you know we used to eat that, because we were always hungry too, no matter how well they fed us, we used to eat raw swede and we used to I tell you what we used to do! Dickie was in the gardens there, Pammie drove two tractor driver, Jo, Jo was the, where's Jo, Jo was the dairy, milk, then I used to drive the other tractor when we wanted two, and what we did we all could take over from the milker when she was off, or Pammie, we could all interchange. But erm Joey used to, when we, Dickie in the gardens,’ Raspberry time girls! It's raspberry time! I'm going to bring some raspberries up today!’. So she picked a basket of raspberries and we were in the cottage, Joey would starts and skims some cream off the top of the churning . We had good churns in those days, the milk in the churn, and she skim off the cream so we had raspberries and cream, and that was gorgeous. Of course we were supplied with as much milk as we wanted, plenty of milk. Have you ever drunk milk straight from a cow? Yes! Yes, you know. It's a different flavour altogether, it's lovely, isn't it! When I was a school Well in the winter we used to like it like that, but in the summer we used to got the old fashioned cooler we used to run over there And didn't get fat on it? No, oh no! We worked too hard! We didn't a chance to get fat! That sugar beet pulp was chewy, it was sweet, but it was chewy, we used to often chew that. erm Did you grow No We didn't grow sugar beet. No you didn't no, well Well we were on orange stone, and we hadn't had that depth of soil. Ah yes, sugar beet leaves a slight taste, yes yes. That was a dangerous contraption. Pammy, then, there's a picture of her tractor, is there, no I haven't got one here, yes, is that the Alice Charmers, well, do you know the Alice Charmers tractor, the two front wheel close together, it's got big wheels the long one, two little, well it was a bigger tractor than that but they were closer together Well, she was driving up this steep bank, I think that was how much the, and who knows so steep that only two roads were up near here, she could have gone over, it was terrible, and of course that thing, erm where is it? That. We all worked on that. That could be used for potatoes or any plants in the corners. That's not too bad actually except the day the young men loaded it back onto the trailer when we'd finished and it was one of these corners, and I happened to be muggins on the corner where that lever was, and he hadn't tied it, it was only in the ratchet, you know, he should have tied it of course. As we lifted it, it came out and banged me on the top there, and it knocked me out, knocked me out and I was going to the doctor, but what frightened them all, this was the funny thing, what frightened them all to death, was the fact that I was violently sick you see, and all was bright red you see, and well the fireman passed out, well, do you know what it was?we had blackcurrant! So that was that! I talk about the but there we go again, where's my little drawing again, that was one of the jobs we'd never have done muck-spreading. You'd either a cart or a horse and cart, or a tractor and trailer, and you'd nice peat, and all these heaps of muck and you knew that when there wasn't anything else to do you'd got to get out there and spread it. And that's alright till you're sent out there on a frosty morning, ain't it, and you dig your fork in. The thing, story in the Land Army magazine is about remembering the new recruited went out first day to go muck-spreading and she was going about it and she stuck her fork in and she landed flat on her face in a heap! You see the thing is, you do learn after a bit, when it's decent, you sort of dig it and you put your wrist, it's wrist, and you soon get to know what to do to spread it, otherwise you'd end up, you know, walking about spreading the stuff, you see. But if it's just been brought out of the calf pens, fresh muck when it's been spreaded in, and you know that tummy muscles, along mucking out the calf pens, they'd been all the winter on this, getting tighter and harder, all through the winter. Now then they're outside now, you'd got to muck out the calf pens, and it's hard. And you get your fork in and it really is hard. Now, sometimes it shouldn't have gone straight out should it? Oh no, no, you should put it out to rot! It should have been left out to rot. I don't know what happened about that, but it probably was put in a heap to rot, but I remember that one load we had to take out was dreadful, it was all wadded and it was heavy, and we could not separate it, you know wrecked my back. Nice rotted muck is alright, not too bad, but erm of course we hadn't done the main thing had we, thrashing! You know about that, don't you! Filthy! Hard work it is! You see under here it says ’ Thrashing's one of the hardest and dirtiest parts of farming and generally supposedly not suitable for women. But at this moment some six hundred land girls in Sussex alone are attacking this job against all the ’. You see, I think there was about eight folks be used for thrashing roughly, ten folks erm two on the rick, one cutting, one feeding, one one that end. At least nine, at least nine! Yes, that's right. But what was nice about our little group was that we could we normally changed over if we didn't want to stick to the same job all the time. Where do you want to start? When you were a child or when you started? Ahem erm from July thirty nine I think were, when I came back and then what led up to me going abroad Oh yes. being a nanny. Were you train er trained as a children's nurse? Yes I've got the National Society of Children's Nursery Certificates. Mm. Where did you train? Did you have to go to college or? Erm I went to, as a private nurse, I started training in the North Middlesex then I did children's training in the Children's Aid Society. Oh, I see, so you were erm a trained nurse as well as a children's nurse? Yes erm well erm and I belong to the Nursery Nurses' Association. Mm. And that's where I got this job with Mm. babies Mm. in London. Mm. How many erm children did you look after before you? Two. Just two children mm. Erm just two children. Because when you were trained in those days you only had two children or otherwise you had another nanny if you had more. Oh I see. You had complete charge of the children. Mm. What was the first family? Well the er family I went to, well they were all nice families, cos you have, you loved your babies cos you had them from birth and you looked after them. And I did return to nurse them for two years Oh yes. with what we called unmarried mothers in Mm. those days. Mm. And the mothers wouldn't have the children er Mm once they got erm pregnant Mm and so the Children's Aid Society, which was the Church of England Society then Oh yes. they erm had this erm had these people in Streatham and Mm. we had the girls months before babies were born Oh yes. and er then when they had their babies, a lot of them wanted to keep them Mm. and so we had our own homes, for the boys in Brighton when they were older and the girls at Hastings. Oh I see. It must've taken quite a bit of courage for the girls to have kept their babies . Yes and erm A real stigma, wasn't there? unmarried mothers. Yes in those days there were and they was mostly young girls, they were waylaid going across the heath or it's their stepfather and Oh dear! things like that. They weren't, you know they didn't, weren't girls that would er in those days know what they're doing so much you know. No, no. And I used to have to sing hymns for them on the wards, they used to love that Mm. and erm then we kept the babies in different toddlers' homes at Todshill and Norwood Oh yes. and then when the boys were of school age they went to Brighton and the girls to Hastings and Mm. and we kept the homes small, about twenty in a home to make it more like home-like and not institution. Mm. And er then when they, if they got scholarships, they went to other schools. They had their own bathing tent on the beach. Oh yes. They used to go swimming and walks in the winter, have their friends in for tea Mm. and er then when they left school some were missionaries and some were nurses. Oh I see. Cos in those days, some of the homes just pushed them into domestic service and that kind of thing. At least, you know, they had more foresight, more care for the Yes children, they weren't really sort of turfed out were they? Yeah and we, you know, having them as from babies you're so attached Oh yes, that's to these children. right, yes. And er So this job you had with the diplomat's family, did you get it from the, the home or were you in a ? Er, erm the one, I applied erm through the Nursing Mirror for that one. When I was er I started at the North Mid, but I was only there a few months Mm. and I wasn't too happy and that's why I, I saw this job advertised Mm. and I went there and worked with the toddlers and er and then I worked in the maternity side of it Mm. and I loved the new babies. Oh yes. And I used to do testing, you know, for urine Mm. and things Mm. er one night keep in touch with the mothers mm Mm. and we were with them all the while Mm. and it was really a happy life, I enjoyed that and then when they, we found them all jobs. Really? Er, once they were able to leave the home and so that everyone was looked after, they never left our care really and No. and whenever they wanted to go to see their children they could. They either went to Hastings or Brighton wherever it was necessary. That was marvellous really, it Yeah. could have turned out so differently couldn't it? Yes and then er I wanted to change and I wanted to do private nursing Mm. so I went up to Streatham and did voluntary work in the maternity home Mm. until I got fixed up with a private job Mm. and that was a Jewish family. Oh yes. Was that in London? And, and it was, yes in London. Mm. Er Golders Green Yes, yes. erm well Hampstead Garden Suburb of Oh I know. And I was with them when I had this holiday with my sister and we went abroad Mm mm. and we enjoyed it so much and it was only ten pound for ten days, No! first class holiday Really? and free admission to the casinos and That include the hotel? what have you. Everything first class. Had an orchestra playing in the garden Really? erm, you know, nighttime and the champagne was only two shillings a bottle and er really had a lovely time. mm. And that, that's when we went on the ship. Mm The Rodney, have a Mm. We were told about war coming Mm and we enjoyed it so much, we went and asked my mother for some more money, we stayed another week and then when we got back to London er Mrs said I think we better go, you know, get away from London in Mm case war comes, with Mm the children. Mm So I suppose that was about August, we went down to erm Bath Mm and then time went along until it was September and September the third I was in church when the vicar announced that war has just been declared. Oh, mm So I stayed on a few weeks and erm then I went back to London Mm and went to Nursery Nurses' Association and they suggested I took charge of an evacuee centre for children. Meantime, this urgent request for someone to go with a government family to North Africa Mm and it would only be six months Mm because no white people were there during the hot weather. Oh, I see. But er, we went and we travelled overland, spent Mm. had three days in Paris Mm. and then we went through into Italy and I You went by train all, all the way through, did you? Yes. Mm mm. And then in Italy at Turin, we got on the boat er The Gaviteer Italian boat Mm. and we called in at Naples, had a look round there and then we went through to Alexandria and spent a week there. How long did it take you from Italy to Well, I think it was about a fortnight Mm. and erm What was life like on the boat? Was it quite comfortable or a bit basic? Oh it was very quiet. The children had a bag of homemade bricks, you know, all sawn up different blocks of wood and so they kept themselves amused with that. Mm it's a long time Yes to be contained on a boat and Yes How old were the children? But oh er the little girl was a year Oh and the boy was three Mm mm. Judy and Hugo. Oh yes, so you were part of saying and about their toys, were you? Yes and they were, he was playing with his toys and his bricks and he was, in the evening you were feeling a bit sick sometimes with it was pretty rough crossing, er that was across the channel. Mm. After we left Paris, that was on the train through to Italy, then down to Turin and then on the Italian boat Mm. and er through to Alexandria where we spent a week, then by train from Alexandria to Cairo. How long did that take? Was that ? Not long. No, no. And then we got on The Lotus, the barge Mm. and we went down the River Nile which took three days Mm. from Cairo to Khartoum north Mm. and on the way we passed er the Wadi Halfa Mm. Er Rames the Rameses heads. Yes, yes. What they remove for the Aswan Dam Oh. and we had a look over that temple, it was the Abdul Sindal temples. What was it like? And er lovely with all the Egyptian markings on the inside of the wall and er then we got back on the barge and er we continued our journey to Khartoum north. Mm. And we were opposite er the governor's residence, which was across the water Oh yes. erm cos we were Khartoum north Mm. and er the children used to play on the banks of the Nile early in the morning when they got up, there was all sand there. Oh yeah. Yes and then being with government people, they had to go on trek Mm and erm we u had a boat on the Nile and the police came with us on camels and another barge with the servants and er so on the way er we made marmalade and all sorts of things to fill in time. Oh ye were there obviously cooking facilities on the boat were there? Pardon? There were cooking facilities on the boat? Oh yes er Mrs she did the cooking Yes, yes. Erm the servants did their cooking, but we made the marmalade and things, the extra Yes, I know. things like that Mm. and Mr had to see the different people being, acting like a magistrate while he was there as he was district commissioner. Oh I see. And erm so and there were,th in the evening the police used to let us go for a ride on the camels. Cos we used to tie up, we weren't on the water at nighttime. Mm mm where did you stay? Did you sleep on the boat? You didn't We slept on the boat. Mm mm. And erm that, we didn't go on trek for so very long No. about a week I suppose. Mm was this quite often during the year, or was it just the once? Er that was just the once while we were there I see. cos it was only supposed to be six months that we were there. Oh yes yes. And then we came, went back to Khartoum. Mm. Erm I mean we were in Khartoum but er just at this week's trek. Yes. And we used to go to the cathedral Mm. and the RAF lads were there and Oh yes. and lots of soldiers, but there weren't many English nurses but they're only English, you know, families out there. Mm mm. So erm how did it, did you stay for the full six months or did it er extend further than that? Er no . Then the Italians started to raid us and we had no fighter planes Oh I see so really and they were dropping their bombs and some on, on the and they, some of the people were killed there. Some bombs they dropped on the RAF camp Mm. but they didn't explode, so the RAF lads said they were made of macaroni. and er so Mrs said oh we must, we must try and get out of Khartoum cos it was so hot and we'd booked to go to k er for a week Mm. and the night we slept in the garden and the night before we went we, Mrs was taken ill and I was giving her, tepid sponges up and the towel where she was sleeping in the garden Mm. and she said you'll have to take the children to in the morning, cos it's all arranged. Mm. So she had a little book and she wrote some words in English and some in Arabic the Yes. other side. I see. And er I managed to get the children to this place called . How did you travel there? Erm by train. Mm mm. And erm we had, we were in little kind of huts on the mountainside. We went up the hotel to meals Mm. and there's all sandy wadders around that the, sandy wa sandy wadders that the goats had made and we used to run down there when there was air raids. They used to ring a bell up at the hotel. I see. And er one day I was bathing Judy in the hut and the bell went and I just had to wrap a towel round her, you know, and run down to the sandy wadders And things got so bad, we went back to Khartoum Mm. and arranged to go, evacuate to Rhodesia. All the English families went down south. Oh yes. Some got as far as Rhodesia and the high altitude wasn't any good so then they had to go on to Cape Town. So, but we were able to stay there for a time. How did it affect them then the, the altitude, did it? I think it's the breathing, the air's so thin Yes, yes I suppose if you and er had any problems of that ilk then it would exag you know,a aggravate it, wouldn't it? Yes. But you, you managed, it, it suited you? I, I managed all right it suited me. Mm mm And er then Mr said it was safe for his wife to return and children, that they, trouble was they couldn't get a seat for me on the plane. It was a sea plane we were on Oh yes and er I said I'll join the Airforce. Oh I see. So that's where So they returned to Khartoum and you stayed in Rhodesia? So, yes so, when we went down to Rhodesia, I er, attested there and I went down, I went to Bulawayo Mm. and I think it was the twenty third squadron that they have here. There was over a thousand lads on the camp Mm. and erm I used to do erm, keep a check on the flying times of the planes cos every forty hours they had to come in for a different check. Mm. And enter up the repairs and replacements Oh that's nice. and train the English lads when they came out for that kind of work Yes. that they had to do there. Oh, how long were you there? Er, what in ? Mm. Well, most of the war you see Mm. and at the end of the war I got married out Oh aye. when I was out there. Oh you married a RAF man, did you? But he, he he wasn't RAF No. but he worked of, on a RAF camp. Mm. He was exempt because he had a heart, an enlarged heart Oh I see, yes. and erm so that delayed things, you know, getting back home. Mm. So you lived in Rhodesia, did you? So I lived in Rhodesia. This was after the war? After the war. Mm. I erm I did go down to Durban Mm. and waited six months to get home, that's before I got married Mm. and erm but the plane, the er boat was slow in coming and it was so hard to get a ship back then Mm mm. so I returned to Rhodesia and that's when I got married. Oh I see. And then when I had my little girl er when she was about a year old Mm. I came back to England Oh did you? and had a holiday Mm. and I stayed with Mrs the people I went abroad with Oh yes, yes. for two months Oh and then I returned to Rhodesia again Mm. after being over here about a year. Mm. Did your husband and daughter come with you? But he was still in Rhodesia. Oh I see. Then in sixty, we came ov back to England Mm. and my husband decided he would like to come over then. He wouldn't come before. Was he English? But he was Eng he English, yes. he came from Wallasey. Oh yes. He had been in a children's home Oh yes. and he was sent out to Rhodesia, to Rhodesia Oh and quite a coincidence your experience of working in a children's home Yes and your husband having been brought up in one. Yes Strange how things work out like that. Yeah. So you came back to England in nineteen sixty? Er yes and in sixty one er he had lung trouble Mm and the doctor advised me to take him back to Rhodesia Oh aye mm. and er so in nineteen sixty six he died Mm. and erm I was feeling ill at the time and I, I wondered why because he'd been through so much suffering, you know, it was a happy release. Mm. But I had this polyneuritis coming on and I gr gradually went paralysed. Does that at attack the, the nervous system? It attacks the nervous system Mm. from the spine I see. and I, I went paralysed from my toes and Was it a gradual thing, was it? Gradually, from the toe, that was July, and I got paralysed up to my hips and er I had no relations or anybody there, but Toc H were very good. They used to, you know, do any little bits of shopping or anything Mm. er that they could, but I had Were you still living at home? I was at home then and er I also had two rooms in a private boarding house Mm. and erm I had jaundice as well which I'd contracted from Jim Oh goodness. and so I could only have marmite or fruit to eat and Mm. so then the housekeeper phoned up the doctor in October Mm. and said you'd have to get me into hospital, cos I couldn't move, you know So it just the bottom part was all paralysed then. Oh goodness. So I was taken to hospital and I was in hospital two years. Mm. Cos, and the paralysis crept up to my shoulders Mm. and the neurologist said anyhow you're alright from the shoulders up, you Mm. That was cold comfort really and erm but I never thought it would be a long job. No But erm so being in hospital two years and then I was in St Giles for eighteen months, which is like Stoke Mandeville Oh yes. and th we used to be visited by some of their people Mm. and er and Mr and Mrs came up from Durban Mm. and to St Giles and they heard about me and they offered me a month's holiday and they were complete strangers and they gave me a month's holiday Oh. and we were in a flat, high up, facing the front south beach, next door to Addington Hospital Mm. and whilst, when I was in hospital I always had that feeling that I'd love to hear the water lapping on a beach, you know and Oh yes, yes. and it did come true, cos when I was in the room there I could hear You could hear. hear the water lapping and see the seagulls on the hospital window ledges opposite. Mm mm. And they were wonderful people, they took me all over Durban. The Valley of the Thousand Hills Oh yes. and I visited their friends and went to their church with them and they gave me a wonderful time, did everything for me Mm. because I needed, you know, looking after then Oh of course, yes. But I had callipers Yes. and I could get along holding their arms, you know, one each side Oh I see. so we used to have walks sometimes along the front. Oh that was great. Mm and there was a verandah there so, if I didn't go out, you know, I could always sit on the verandah and watch them surfing. Mm mm. and so it was a lovely time. It was a really welcome relief wasn't it, from, you know, being in hospital? Yes. So then when I got back to erm er St Giles erm I was there for a month and then I went into a home for the blind and handicapped Mm. and I was there nine years. Mm. You had some movement and er returned to you completely paralysed Erm yes erm well at the ti at first I could only move my head, but when I went on that holiday, St Giles had been working on me with nerve machines and muscle machines Mm. and in the, swimming in the hot water. Mm. used to have a black rubber tyre round my middle Yes. and so I could er, you know, move around and that's why, it was I was able to walk with callipers. Mm. I got on fine then. Mm. But erm it was diagnosed late, you see, having polyneuritis for three months, that the er the movement was last to come back in the toes and feet. Mm. That's with me, seeing that it was so long before it was diagnosed, that's why my feet and hands are still paralysed. Mm mm. I suppose the real extremities. Yes and you think you can move your fingers and you pull on them and you look down and I'm trying to pull them now, but they just won't move. Must be a strange sensation your brain Yeah. is telling you things but Yeah. it just won't obey. That's what I don't understand because the message is going to the brain to do it and yet I try and I can't. Mm. Must be obviously some break in, you know, Yeah. the nerve impulse, mustn't there? Affect Yeah. your fingers. The toes, thank goodness, are straight, that's why I can get a slipper on Mm. but the fingers are curled round. Mm. Considering, you know, you are so handicapped with your hands Yeah. and the artwork and everything. Yeah. The copperwork I think is fantastic. You see the St Giles taught me to type first of all Mm. with a, well they, they made the wooden stick and I got the Pitman's book and Mm. I taught myself typing. Did you? And er then they tau Quite a resourceful lady aren't you? then they taught me the copper Mm. work, they showed me how to do that and I just love copper Mm mm. and erm and then they tried me on painting. Mm. And during this time I belonged to Toc H. Mm. I was initiated in fifty six Mm. and they were very good to me and they kept in touch with me Mm. and erm then I, I couldn't be really active and you're supposed to be an ac active to be a member of a branch. Er they said oh we'll find you a job so you are active, so I was librarian out there. Oh were you, oh. And erm then when these jobs came along I was er the handicapped Brownies at St Giles. Mm. My friend said I'll erm, I'll only go if you'll come too. And I said how can I like this? Well I did, that was about nineteen seventy. Mm. And erm so we started the Brownies and I could train them and we used to have such fun together, you know Mm. and er and then those Brownies got older and I started the first Girl Guides there Really? and erm so that in nineteen eighty, when things got so bad in Salisbury, Yes that people were leaving the country., my friend wrote to my niece in One House and asked her if I could live with her until I got fixed up in a home. Mm. I thought it would be quicker, you see and I'd been in the services as well, because I used to give a subscription to British Legion Mm. every year Mm. and they did have bungalows for Rhodesians over here in different parts of England Mm. that erm, when I got here, you know, I knew how difficult it was to get fixed up anywhere. Mm mm. And I had my name down for Sue Ryder's and the Legion and then a vacancy fell due here Yes. and that's why I'm at One House, Wade house. House So that's, it's convenient that. Does your niece still live at One House? Yes, my niece is at One House Yes. and she comes in to see me on her way home from work Mm and her house wasn't suitable, you know, cos of the stairs Yes that's, that's right. and she was just a working girl, you know, and it was a worry to her as well. Mm mm So she can visit me now Mm. and erm so that's how my life is. You came here in nineteen eighty, did you? Nineteen eighty Mm. Mm, I've been here just on four years now. Mm mm. You certainly keep yourself busy, don't you? Yes. I think you've got to and obviously you've got a very active mind and Yes you know, it's, it's marvellous that you keep doing things. Yeah, and I got a transfer in Toc H I'm a district member now Mm. of Mm branch and I'm a member of the Trefoil Guild. They meet once a year, you know, to a kind of get together for Yes. the disabled Trefoilers. Oh I see. And er, but last year was a bad year. I was in hospital twice so Were you? I didn't get out much. Mm, mm. Still with your condition was this you know ? Yes erm I c I'm, I don't get out so much No. now. Mm mm. But of course I enjoy going to Red Cross Oh yes, yes. every other week and they've made things so much brighter for me. Mm, mm. The fact you haven't got the worry of transport taken and brought home No, no. I'm glad you're going So it's ju out and about more Yes. erm because next time we're going to Harlston, aren't we? Yes. it's lovely in the summer. Yes. Well it's ever, thanks ever so much Doris, you've really, Oh. really been great, you know Thank you. I expect, I thoroughly enjoyed it. I'm sorry I, I'm so forget you know I Oh goodness, no. hesitate on things. No. I mean when you think, it's quite er a long time ago to Yeah. remember it, you know really Mm. Thanks ever so much really appreciate it a new, a new, a new a new toy. I'm glad somebody's got something in I'm, I'm the only one working now, they've, they've all packed up for the day. Do have a seat anyway. Er I've been doing a, been writing a book now, for about ten years. Aha. Erm I was on the railway for thirty years, as a driver on the railway at wouldn't remember Er no, no. Bit before my time, I'm afraid. And erm anyway it was a wonderful place, wonderful relationship with the men and erm about the only odd thing about it I've come up against a snag which I didn't think I've had a ghost writer, I've got publishers, and as I can't get er permission for all the photos that I want. Oh dear, that's a shame. Because there's a ten year Oh. er one thing or another,I must have spent a couple of thousand pounds on these photos . Anyway you're just interested No no no no. But er well what it is I've got a mouth problem. Mhm. Now when I came to see you, I think it were earlier on in the year and I've been to see er the other doctors. Yeah. Er we had a virus, now I've still got this sore tongue that keeps coming back, very badly. Now the other day when I rung for appointment trying to put it in the bin,, not my fault. Yes, yes yes . What have you done to this poor wee man? It's his leg Doctor, What's she done to you? rash. What've they been doing to you? Were they bad to you? Were they? Were they bad? These women are all the same. You'll get used, you'll used to it. . I'd better look under the big light. There we go , let's see what's . What did I do? Were they bad? Were they? Were they bad to you? Were they? Are you just kidding me on? Are you? Are you just kidding on? Are you? Are you just kidding on? Are you just kidding on? You're just kidding on? Aren't you? Just kidding me on? Oh that's a good boy, there now. Oh it's only an allergic rash,. It's just Yes. or on his body or anything. And and she said this afternoon, Aha. and she advised to bring him in to . It looks like an allergic rash . Have you changed your soap powder or erm fabric softener. I don't used it cos my husband's allergic to it. Aye, that's that's certainly what it looks like. Mhm. You know that type of thing. Either a fabric softener or a soap powder rash. He's not on any medicines? No, he got his injections last Thursday. Aye , I wouldn't do that to you, I wouldn't do that. I wouldn't do it to you. Right okay, up you come and we'll get you something for that. It's not erm anything that's he's going to pass on. It looks much much more like erm an allergic rash and he's got an allergic reaction to something. Mm. Isn't it? Who's that,sitting there? You like that? You can see everything now. He just loves fun, don't you? He loves attention. He would love to walk as well. He would love to walk. Wouldn't you? I wish he would walk, he's been so heavy for me to carry. Why carry you instead, is it? I'm not so sure about that. Are you . he loves to get thrown up and Do you, do you like that? The rougher the better. There we are. Now then, you go back to your mum, I'll write something down on a prescription here for you. If it was an allergy to soap powder would it take a long time to come out? Can do, it can take several months before it comes out. I had been washing all his hand. his clothes by hand before I went back to work and of course I don't have quite the same time That's right. so I've been putting them in the washing machine so maybe It could be something as simple as that. And it would take maybe, it could take longer, I mean it Yes, it takes, it could take to get the skin sensitized I see. And then to produce a reaction . So I'd be best to go back to Aye, I think so . I'm afraid, I'm afraid so. The only other thing I would say is erm Revelation. And I looked to behold a pale horse and his name that sat on him was Death. David Koresh, like Jesus Christ, died aged thirty three. British followers of Koresh are facing trial for murder. Tonight Panorama has new evidence about the Waco tragedy . For the great day of his wrath is come. David Koresh was an uneducated product of Rural Texas. He liked rock music, cars, guns and teenage girls. But to the Branch Davidian Sect he was the Lamb of God. Today there is dispute about how far he caused his and his followers deaths, or they were victims of a needless tragedy. The American government has just brought out two new reports providing fresh evidence about the life and death of the man who called himself the sinful Messiah. Koresh lives on in the hearts of such Branch Davidians as survived. Two of them revisit the site of the Mount Carmel centre, their former home outside Waco, that Koresh renamed Ranch Apocalypse. They've come to look for their belongings. Janet had been a Branch Davidian for years before Koresh came along. There's not much left is there . Just a heap of rubbish, hard to believe that there were over a hundred people living in there, is there? Her husband is in jail in Waco with the other men, soon to go on trial. Sheila lost her husband and four of here seven children in the fire. The site was bulldozed immediately afterwards. Last week the Justice Department's report reaffirmed that the fire was deliberately started inside. Most survivors dispute that. If the cause of the tragedy is contentious, the scale of it is not. Eighty four people died here on April the nineteenth, of whom at least twenty were young children. Twelve of the youngest were found still wrapped in the charred bones of their mothers' arms. Of all the dead about twenty four were British. And of the Adults who left during the siege, or who managed to survive the fire, three Britons will soon go on trial for conspiracy to murder the federal agents who were killed or wounded in the initial shoot out. Many of the Branch Davidians seem to be educated and articulate people. The question remains. How did people like that come to finish up in the holocaust that happened here? The Davidians split off from the Sabbath Day Adventist church in the nineteen thirties. They take the book of Revelation more literally and believe the second coming of Christ is imminent. Among the wreckage here are the belongings of families who came from Britain and from all over the world. I like to have the memories of them Yeah I don't. but you hate to think at the same time what happened how they were burning you hate to think of Yeah I I those things. The government calls them a cult because of their devotion to David Koresh. Their spirits are with us and that we got to keep on going. and their loyalty remains. Having lost your husband and four of your children, you don't think that David Koresh might have been er a unwise leader? A misguided figure? No,no, no. He's he's always been very kind, very considerate always very mindful of our sins. I don't think so, no. Don't you ever feel that he dragged your family in to this terrible holocaust unnecessarily ? No sir. No sir I think that we were all there we all stayed because God would take care of us. We still believe that there's going to be a kingdom over in Israel and that David Koresh is going to come back and be the head of that kingdom and that it's going to be a peaceful place as prophecized in the Bible. It talks about the heathen being astounded and being envious and jealous because they are going to see peace and harmony and happiness and this is what we are looking forward to this is why we're not mourning, why we're not you know all upset because we know this is going to come. Three British Branch Davidian men are in Waco jail and will be tried for murder soon. I spoke on the telephone to one of them Livingstone who comes from Nottingham. This is no different to the Christians that lived back two thousand years ago. It was either the system or God that's what er the position of the F B I put us in. We did not fear death at all. The thing about it is that it is not death of the body that is important to us, it's the soul. David Koresh grew up in the Bible belt. He was born Vernon , the illegitimate son of a fourteen year old girl. Brought up in the Seventh Day Adventist Church he would later be expelled and join the Branch Davidians. His mother, now Mrs Bonnie , knew young Vernon's vocation was to be a religious leader. He was a failure at school, but as a teenager he became obsessed with Christianity. He would pray for hours and memorize large sections of the Bible. His mother remembers his growing talent as a preacher. I knew it had to be a gift from God. And all a prophet means is a mouthpiece of God, it's nothing he's just a man you know but I felt that God was leaving him I really did. He amazed me, it was awesome. He described himself as the sinful Messiah. Mhm. What does that mean? Well he he he was a sinful person, as we all are erm, I think he did not as the way I understand it, you know Jesus came perfect in everything but he had a he had a a message to give and he could give it better, I think because he had experienced so many things. The sins of the world and all this kind of stuff. Waco sheriffs officers close in on Mount Carmel, not this year but six years ago. Vernon was arrested for leading an armed attack on the then Branch Davidian leader one George who'd thrown him off the property. Shots were exchanged and firearms seized. In a bizarre leadership contest had dug up a dead Davidian and challenged his rival Vernon to bring the body back to life. In court the jury concluded that was insane. Vernon David Koresh to be, escaped conviction because the jury couldn't agree on his guilt. The vital evidence was removed from the Waco courthouse and guns were returned to him. George had been toppled as Davidian leader. Vernon returned to Mount Carmel with his young wife and a handful of followers, the undisputed leader of the sect. To consolidate his power he needed new members and his recruiters fanned out across the world. Koresh's closest aid, right up to the end was Steve . He flew to London in nineteen eighty eight. He headed for the Seventh Day Adventist College, New Bold in Berkshire. had been a student here back in the seventies before he was expelled for getting drunk. came as in the Christian community would say a wolf in sheep clothing. No one knew of him coming, hardly anyone knew who he was. The first thing he did he made friends amongst the young men in the college. He was a latter-day John the Baptist preparing the way for David Koresh. A former Adventist himself, he was well equipped to give the students he met Koresh's new slant on the book of Revelation. I've pondered over a couple of the things. Good. You know as an Adventist do you know what it says in the book of Revelation? Yeah Revelation fourteen and lo a lion was standing on the Mount Zion and with him a Hundred and Forty and four thousand which were redeemed from the Earth. Any man that worships the beast and the image the very same shall taste of the wine of the wrath of God. He took things out of context and everything focused on Armageddon, the end of the world, apocalypse. Koresh zeroed in on this and tried to bring it closer to where we are to make it more real so it was uppermost in the minds of all his followers. When Koresh himself came to Britain banned from New Bold he had to hold meetings in peoples homes. God in the flesh, do you know who I am? God in the flesh. New Bold college couldn't prevent its students from going along and some young Seventh Day Adventists were predisposed to be receptive. After all Koresh's apocalyptic vision, his talk of the seven seals that only the lamb of God can unlock, sounded like refinements of what they already believed. Dissatisfied with mainstream Christianity they were impressed by his apparent certainty, but he persuaded his potential British followers with more than just his Biblical knowledge. What better sinner knows a sinner than a godly sinner, ha? Gradually the meetings got longer and longer until eventually they began, not in the evening, but they began in the morning and they lasted from perhaps ten in the morning until the early hours of the next day. Course people were very tired. The the evening I was there there were about twenty five people in the room and people were falling asleep. But what's the point of holding a meeting that goes on for more than twelve hours? Well I I only see one point and that is to try to confuse somebody, to brainwash them. But those who accepted Koresh's teaching deny they were being brainwashed. Every sin Isaiah says, I'm guilty of, I agree. I'm perfect to give you this message. As a recruiting exercise the meetings were a success one who joined then, now a nurse, was Janet . We were not spell bound by David. You know we were intelligent people who asked intelligent questions. Now remember we all of us came from the background that, you know this world was going to come to an end very soon. That God was going to do something catastrophic, Okay? Erm exactly what, we didn't know, we were al we all knew a little bit about the seals, however we had studied about the seals in a different way and it didn't make sense and we were young people who who were searching. As well as Janet, four students at the meeting became Branch Davidian recruiters in Britain. One was her brother, theology student John who recruited in Manchester. He was to die in the fire. Livingstone from Nottingham was a former Seventh Day Adventist pastor. As we've seen he's now in prison. Cliff from Derby was another New Bold student, a gifted artist he too would die in the fire. And Diana , John former girlfriend, and a psychology graduate. She had two brothers and two sisters at home in Manchester. Manchester South Seventh Day Adventist Church. The family used to come here. The father Sam , a builder still worships here on a Saturday, the Adventist sabbath. All five children were musical and destined for academic success and professional careers. John was able to convince most of the family to follow the sinful Messiah. Diana returned after her first visit to Waco to go about recruiting Manchester Adventists using her father's church membership lists . Hello it's me. How are you? Her father was the only member of the family to reject Koresh's teaching and the only one still alive. The fire in Waco killed Diana, both her brothers, both her sisters and her mother Zilla . When she decided, with the rest of the children, to go to Waco Monday and they told me the Sunday. Just a few hours, I would say before, less than twenty four hours before they went. That they were going and that nearly killed me, that nearly killed me because I knew then this was serious. Very serious. This came as a shock to you? It was more than a shock I put my head in my in my hand and I remember kneeling right at this spot and just crying my heart out. You are a bereaved husband and a bereaved father. Definitely I am. In in in this situation, have you apportioned blame for the deaths of your family? Whom do you blame? I The main There are two persons whom the Devil used as instruments in the destruction of my family, equally. And one is They call him David Koresh, and the next is a woman in London call Vicky . I think that's her name. Why do you blame her? Because her home was a headquarters for Vernon in Britain. Victorine is vacating her flat in North London. It was never a headquarters as such, but David Koresh, the self-styled lamb of God, stayed here when he visited London. And here he held Bible meetings that convinced Vicky , and over thirty others, to come and join him in Waco. She was allowed to leave the Mount Carmel centre halfway through the siege. Speaking for the first time Vicky is now disillusioned with the man she once thought was a prophet and is writing a book about it. I still believe that that someone is to come by the name of David and setting up of God's kingdom but but But it's not David Koresh? No it's not David Koresh. Vicky was filmed at the Mount Carmel centre, last year, by an Australian cameraman. She lived here on and off for three years. Conditions were primitive. There was no sanitation. Life consisted of laborious work, punctuated by lengthy sessions of Bible study addressed by the prophet himself . I will the Lord has said unto me thou art my son. This day have I begotten thee. Ha. Someone's the son of God, someone It would become clear to Vicky that Koresh's contempt for the outside world, that he called Babylon, included contempt for some of its laws and for normal standards of behaviour. Someone is going to rule whether the big world likes it or not. Thou shalt break them with the rod of iron, thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel. The guy's tough. He's got more than guns. He's got God. Sometimes his Bible meetings are very interesting and another time it can be very boring. He would tell us about his love affairs and things what he did. You know just raw, you know. What he did, how how he'd do it and things like that. And you know children, men and children would be there and he just don't care. Sorry Wh what How would you mean, what he did? You know, how You know how he make love, he would tell us. The Mount Carmel compound in the Texas countryside outside Waco, had a despotic leader. Once his followers, many educated people, were convinced that Koresh was a prophet, a mouth piece of God they would do anything he asked of them. Koresh had married Rachel who was the fourteen year old daughter of another Branch Davidian. Together they had three children, all of them would die in the fire. But Koresh believed himself entitled to all the Davidian women. David established that erm in Isaiah, two twenty two, it says Seize Eve from man, and this is one of the prophecies that that David showed us that er shows the man, or the women, that they have to leave their wife or If it's the woman, she has to leave her husband and her and her boyfriend and become his wife. So he used a verse of Isaiah Yes. to justify sleeping with all the other mens wives? Yes and all the men give give their wife to David. So how many of them got pregnant? Many many of them. So how many children do you think David Koresh had? David had many children. So so that if any of the women were pregnant at Mount Carmel, David Koresh was the father. Yes because all all Every every man give their wife up. Even Koresh's closest aide, Steve , had to give up his young wife Judy to the sinful Messiah. She had Koresh's baby and called herself Judy Koresh. The whole harem was known as The House of David. But Koresh didn't just take Davidians wives. He demanded their young daughters too, and most parents consented. Koresh was discreet about his sex with underage children and they left his room in the early dawn. But one Branch Davidian, who later went to the police, was a witness to what went on. He came to me He had a problem,he and I were good friends and he said that erm that this one girl s erm Michelle , was his favourite wife and that he had been with her since erm she was twelve. The problem that he was having was that she was his legal wife's sister and there was some rivalry or jealousy developing between his legal wife and er this other girl and he wasn't sure what he what to do about it. What did you think about David Koresh sleeping with twelve year old children? Well I think it was terrible but the parents agree with it. Both mother and father, they agree that erm that David should do that because, you see, David established that he is the only he is the only man on this Earth who who who have er holy seed in him. Holy seed. Yes and That's what he called it? Yeah he call it the holy seed and that he could have righteous children. If Koresh broke the law, it was the County sheriff who should have intervened. The Waco sheriff habitually turned a blind eye to Koresh's activities. But when Mark defected and made allegations of child abuse sheriff Jack eventually sent social workers to visit the Branch Davidians. There was really no evidence of er of child abuse. There was only allegations and and again I say today that we have not ever found any any proof of any child abuse out there. That's not to say there wasn't child abuse now, I I have my own thoughts and in my own feelings feel that there could have been some child abuse especially ch sexual abuse. Erm, but we could never prove that. Wayne was David Koresh's legal advisor, but took his turn in helping construct the flimsy wooden building. Thinking himself safe from the law Koresh committed more excesses. was one of the so called mighty men. King David of the Old Testament had mighty men to enforce discipline, so did David Koresh. There was a paddle with which Koresh beat his followers and he intimidated them by openly boasting, in crude detail, about even worse brutality. Upon Julie who feared for her young daughter and wanted to leave. What I am saying here now is not hearsay, this is what David telled us in his Bible meetings. What he did. He took Julie upstairs in his room and he he push her he push her on his bed and he he raped her. He said to us that you know that is dick was so hard and he told us everything of what he did to her, he push his dick inside of her and he said he was very very rough with her and she was crying and crying and crying. For entertainment Koresh forced the Branch Davidians to watch violent and horrific videos, usually of films about the Vietnam war, to instil a militant and defensive mentality. Koresh had guns from the beginning and he made his mighty men in to trained marksman. His weapons were part of his his message. You see if There is going to be a war, and God's people had also to be warriors and so there was that element of religion as well that that we had to be trained as warriors for the Lord. On several occasions they had er displayed guns where people would back into their driveway or er show some indication that they were going on to their property, then guns were revealed, people coming out of the the buildings out there with guns and what have you. There was some reference to it as being their country. I I would not go out there on to their property without letting them have knowledge that I was coming to their property. But of all Koresh's dubious activities it was gun dealing that would bring him in to conflict with authority. One of his members had a dealers license and drove to cities like Houston to buy and sell at gun fairs. Koresh financed his sect by trading in weapons. A common place enough business in Texas. This was Koresh's business premises. A building near Mount Carmel called the Magbag. Here Koresh took receipt of mail order fire arms from all over America including machine guns, like the A K Forty Seven, the simple kits that convert semi-automatic weapons into automatics and even hand grenades. Fully assembled they are all illegal. Only when a package burst open did the sheriff receive a tip off from the postal service U P S. Er U P S er called us one time on some hand grenades hulls er the kind that you would use sat on your desk for a paperweight. A box of them had had er they were delivering had erm They had damaged the box and some of them had fallen out. And they called us to go out and look at them. They were not the illegal so we couldn't stop them from delivering them. Then we received information, black powder and and er other er types of er conversion kits for semi automatic rifles to convert them to automatic rifles, and that kind of thing. All of this information we were giving to the federal people, A T F, who are responsible for investigating and control these kind of activities. As a result this house opposite Koresh's compound was occupied in January by agents of the Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms bureau, the A T F. An agent called infiltrated Bible classes and a log was kept of Koresh's movements. Warrants were issued to arrest Koresh and to search Mount Carmel for illegal weapons. Koresh used to regularly drive into Waco in his black sports car, he had no fear of arrest. Last week a government report said that if the A T F had arrested Koresh in town, all the mayhem that followed need never of happened and those who died might still have been alive. Instead the A T F decided to mount its biggest ever raid. Over a hundred armed agents set out for Mount Carmel. The raid was meant to have speed, simplicity and surprise. Speed, the A T F were transported in cattle trucks that were visible from miles away. Simplicity, the raid was preceded by three military helicopters that were fired upon before the cattle trucks even got here. Surprise, the raid had been talked about in Waco for days. The news media were alerted and were following the police convoy. One television news cameraman got lost near here and asked a postman for directions adding, there's going to be a big gunfight with those religious nuts over there. The postman thanked him for the warning and drove back to Mount Carmel. He was David , David Koresh's brother-in-law and one of the mighty men. Withering fire from the Davidians automatic weapons greeted the A T F men when they tried to enter the building. Last weeks report shows that not only was Koresh forewarned of the raid but the A T F's undercover agent had told that to the raid's commanders. The report says they should have called off the operation once the element of surprise was lost. With both sides suffering dead and wounded, Davidian lawyer Wayne , put in a desperate call to the deputy sheriff, Larry who he knew. Against a background of gunfire the call was recorded. Yeah this is Lieutenant may I help you? Yeah, they're shooting at us in Mount Carmel. Mount Carmel? Yeah, tell them there are children and women in here and to call it off. Oh man, I can hear the bullets. God almighty I knew this. Wayne? Tell them to call it off! Who is this, Wayne? Tell them to pull back! What? fight to the last man They started firing first. cease fire . Oh shit. What's the matter? They're What do you think they're doing all this firing on us right now. Alright, I'm trying to make contact with the forces now, standby. Why do you think such extreme violence was used against law enforcement officers when they arrived to carry out their duties? Well, er because it was provoked. Because the A T F provoked it. Violence begets v violence and when the A T F assaulted er those people, they defended themselves. When you think about a hundred plus people inside of a compound with all of those weapons, you need a a mass a large scale operation. The important thing was that it go forward only with the element of surprise. Unfortunately the element of surprise was lost and the operation still went forward. Ronald report concedes that with four A T F men killed and sixteen wounded the raid was a fiasco. But there could be no let up now. Koresh was confronting not just the local sheriff but the government of the United States. Federal officers were dead. A tragic process began to unfold and faced with a entrancement they could not understand, officials made a series of misjudgments that would end in an even greater loss of life. David Koresh and his followers were where they wanted to be, inside the fortress of Mount Carmel. They settled down for a long siege and so did the outside world. President Clinton replaced the A T F with the Federal Bureau of Investigation, the F B I. Meanwhile the army provided armoured vehicles and helicopters. The aim was to get the Davidians to give themselves up. But over the succeeding weeks only a handful came out the rest chose to stay. Everybody else for a look through the field glasses, it doesn't cost you Last week's report for the Justice Department acknowledges that the F B I's tactics didn't work. Instead of a swift resolution the siege dragged on into its second month. Initially the F B I's fear was that there would be a mass suicide. When Vicky came out after three weeks she confirmed that fear. Evette , she brought er a green thing A round thing and she gave it to one of the ladies, I cannot remember which one. Saying that erm you know th you know that it's a grenade and it's going to be quick death. Even in that early part of the siege a decision had been made that you were all going to die. we are all going to die then they all they they that th that they're going to blow the place up. So a mass suicide had erm you know the people were planning a mass suicide in the first few days of the siege. Is this because David Koresh had persuaded everybody that their lives would have to end in this siege? Well David said that we were at the end, everyone believed that they were that the time has come that we was at the end of the world. If that was the mood in the early days of the siege later on the F B I knew that Koresh's attitude may have changed. Koresh's lawyer,, were one of the few the F B I allowed to speak to him. gave Panorama evidence that Koresh intended to survive the siege. The tape of a phone conversation, late in the siege, that has not been heard publicly before. This is what my focus is, once I go out of here I want to go out walking. I told them, you know, I had no intention of committing suicide, I'm not that way. Let me tell you the word there spreading is that you have vowed to kill all everybody. Er That is baloney. that there would be a mass suici , I know it it's i that's not that's not even sane. Koresh told that he'd give himself up once he'd written his prophetic interpretation of the seven seals. We know Koresh started work because the computer disk containing his first chapter survived the fire. Although the F B I thought this another delaying tactic, it helped persuade them that mass suicide was unlikely, and that it was therefore safe to force a conclusion. At dawn on April the nineteenth, fifty one days into the siege, their patience ran out. President Clinton authorized the F B I's tanks to bash holes in the walls, spray C S gas and fire in gas canisters. Over loud speakers the F B I told the Davidians it was not an assault, just an attempt to force them out. But the Davidians stayed put. Last week's report would call the entire gassing operation a failure. What you had was, F B I agents who were trained to be proactive, to be to do things, to force a conclusion. They didn't have to do something. It's this macho attitude, we've got to bring this to a conclusion, that I'm arguing about. I think the best conclusion would have happened if they'd just let it happen, rather than trying to force the issue on April the nineteenth. Er it was the it was the wrong decision. Six hours after the gassing operation began, around midday, the Mount Carmel centre burst into flames in three different places. About a hundred were inside, just nine escaped. One told be his experience, on the phone from Waco prison, British survivor, Renos . Er I myself went for the nearest exit which was out a window, I assume everyone else erm panicked and I could hear quite a few people running running down the corridor from the first floor. Erm I myself came out a first floor window erm a lot of a lot of entrances had already been blocked by the tanks How did the fire start? At the time the government didn't expect a mass suicide. But F B I agents are now hinting they knew the fire might happen. They had listening devices in the building, and early on the nineteenth allegedly heard Koresh ordering paraffin to splashed around. The Justice Department won't release those tapes but its investigator has no doubts. There is substantial evidence that er demonstrates that the fire was caused by those inside the compound. Not just caused by them but that it was intentionally set. Er we do have interviews with the number of members who had exited the compound indicating that there was er inf er erm m petroleum type products that were being spread around the compound. Er that the fires were set at about the time that the erm er that the armoured began breaching the walls of the compound. I think the evidence will be overwhelming that that fire was set intentionally by Koresh and h some of his core followers. But the British eye witness, Renos , says that the fire was started by accident. I was in there with the flame and er there was no erm for any erm or anything like that. I'm not sure if David keep us from erm the building, we know then that there was no But as the fire here at mount Carmel started in three separate places, the F B I is probably right that it was deliberate. But there is no proof of mass suicide. The question remains therefore whether the F B I was wise to force the issue with the gas attack or whether it aggravated the situation. The Justice Department report exonerates the F B I. But many in America have received that report sceptically. To avoid an agonizing death by fire, many Davidians shot one another, or themselves. David Koresh had already been wounded. F B I agents now believe that is was his trusted lieutenant who had given Koresh everything including his own wife, who shot the sinful Messiah in the head with a rifle, before turning the gun on himself. No weapon was found near the body of David Koresh. A high velocity rifle lay beside the remains of Steve . The flag of Texas symbolized the reassertion of state authority over Koresh's kingdom. What little remained of victims of the fire was carried away for identification and autopsy. The survivors and the government cannot agree about responsibility for their deaths, among them young Cliff,, John , the family, Wayne and four of his children. Why did all So many people have to die like this? Why did they You know, when you think that they were in er One place there was thirty two. In that square place that was over there, it was a pantry, some of them were so fused together they were holding each other . There was like five or six bodies at one point. They realized later that these are messed together. Such a heat, and such a a closeness, they were afraid. They would not have done this. They wouldn't have allowed them, you know,didn't want to kill themselves like that. They didn't want to die. We all wanted to live, I know my children too. In order to make his own sort of erm prophetic vision come true. Erm he decided to stage a fire in which it would make it appear as though er this was a result of some sort of erm armed confrontation between law enforcement and his group. But who Actually he wasn't given what he wanted, which I believe was an armed conflict between law enforcement and his group in which he expected to die, in which he expected his membership to die. The shattered mementoes of the sect, decay on the devastated site of Mount Carmel. Koresh has been demonized by the government, and his followers ridiculed as cultists. They became the object of public outrage and loathing. And very few stopped to think about what had happened. The true test of a free society is not in how it treats its best citizens, but in how it treats its worst, its most despised. And if we can do that to someone because, well they're religious nuts,they're they're a little bit different. Or they're a lot different. Then we can do it to you or me or anyone else, and that troubles me. What remained of David Koresh was secretly buried here, in this unmarked grave in the small Texas town where he grew up. The Branch Davidian Sect still exists. Its members believe Koresh will return soon and today they are still actively trying to make converts, in Britain and wherever people are susceptible to the appeal of a Sinful Messiah. I think we'll, got another minute or so. I think I'll start. Well welcome everybody and welcome to some Pearson results that er ar maybe rather better than some of you were expecting. Er taking part in our presentation this morning is Frank , the Chief Executive of, of Pearson, er James , our Finance Director and David who is er our resident as Pearson Executive Director resident in the U S and he is also Chairman of our Oil Services Division. Profits are lower and earnings are lower than last year, but cash generation which we've been working particularly hard on er for the past couple of years er and which we will be talking about further in a minute has come through extremely well er and we produced higher levels of cash this year than at any time in the company's history. With this in mind we are er recommending a small increase in the net dividend. A number of things have changed since er, we reported rather gloomily six months ago. One of the major changes is that the trading environment in which U K companies operate has been improved by lower interest rates and the lower value of the pound which is also helpful to the translation of our overseas profits and to our exports. Particularly as we are a company whose sales as you know is split roughly a third a third a third er that is a third in the U K, a third in North America and a third in the rest of the world. The media and entertainment business brought in excellent results collectively up twenty five percent and as you can see the book businesses performed particularly strongly even better now. Erm investment banking and fine china in the market circumstances er performed well, erm although they're down on the previous year. Er the disappointment obviously is oil services, so to begin I'm gonna ask David , who as I said is Chairman of our Oil Services Division Camco to address this straight away. Just better ah, that's fine. Thank you Michael for that introduction which er could be likened to a poisoned chalice I suppose. Erm you probably all know Murphy's law that what can go wrong will go wrong, when I looked at the Oil Service Industry in last year, I rather think that Murphy was a bit of an optimist myself. Er, obviously on a more serious note, er it was very disappointing that we had such a severe er downturn in profitability last year after several years of steadily rising profits, and so what I want to do this morning was tell you a little bit about what happened in the last part of the year, since we met at the time of the interim results presentation last September, tell you the actions that have been taken and give you a little bit of insight as to where we stand at the present time. You may remember that we were talking last autumn about gas prices hopefully continuing to rise natural gas by to rise during the rest of the year and in fact that did take place and it did have some impact on the domestic rig count in the United States which went up quite strongly in the last part of the year. Although I should warn you that about two hundred of those nine hundred rigs were probably actor active as a result of special tax breaks, which were ended at the end of nineteen ninety two and won't be repeated. The biggest problem and disappointment was that the international rig count continued downwards and that was where we had been hoping for increased sales and increased market share looking into this year and into the last part of last year. As a result, overall our sales were down, roughly in line with our competitors in the oil service industry, but there was continuing pressure on margins and profitability and there had obviously been some build-up on the international side in anticipation of higher sales. With an uncertain outlook for nineteen ninety three from our point of view it's absolutely crucial to get costs in line we had obviously done cost-cutting during the previous two years, but we really needed to be sure that if revenues were not going to increase, we shouldn't wait for a recovery to bail us out. This led to restructuring costs, including redundancies and closures and other one-time charges totalling approximately twenty million dollars, of which approximately eighteen million dollars came in the second half and a very large portion of that in the last quarter of the year. The areas where we put in most effort were Reed Tool the drill bit company where there were redundancies earlier in the year and in particular the U S operations of Redder and also the U S operations of Camco Products where in fact in the U S part of it, there are now thirty eight percent less people employed than there were a year ago. In doing all of this, we were in good or maybe bad company depending upon how you view it, for example Halla Burton had special charges last year of a hundred and eighty seven million dollars which compared with a hundred and eighty two million dollars of special charges the previous year and Baker Hughes similarly had charges of eighty million dollars and sixty million dollars. At the same time, we reduced capital expenditure from forty two million dollars to twenty four million dollars, but we did keep up our R and D efforts and had several rather successful new product introductions during the year. As a result with good control of working capital, our cash flow overall was virtually the same as in the previous year in spite of the significant profit collapse and although there may be some further redundancies this year, I don't expect them to be in any way on the same scale as during nineteen ninety two and the important thing is that we now have costs in line with the lower level of revenue as we look into nineteen ninety three. To take a quick look now at the current conditions and in fact you'll see the extension of gas prices, rig counts etcetera into this year on the charts that you'll be given with a pack after this meeting. Gas prices in the first quarter of this year have continued firm. The U S rig count is down, both because of those rigs I told you about for tax reasons and also because there's always a seasonal downturn in the first quarter of this year. There is some indication that the seasonal downturn may be flattening out a little bit earlier this year than usual. The Canadian market has been very strong, which is important for Reed Tool which has a big market share up there for its drill bits. The international market however does still remain weak. There may have been some weather impact in the last two months, but basically, it looks like the major U S oil companies that were going overseas are still spending money on buying leases and building up infrastructure. The national companies such as Mexico and Venezuela are still re-organizing themselves and obviously a lot of time, effort and nervous energy is being spent by people on figuring out what to do in the C I S, where there are obviously great opportunities, but great risks as well. So the trading environment still remains er somewhat weak, but the better news is that the medicine we've applied does seem to be working. The newly-appointed C E O, Gary who took over at the end of the year when Gill retired has been very involved in these restructuring efforts and has been working very effectively and is on top of the situation, and although three swallows may not make a summer, I can at least tell you that Camco has traded profitably in each of the first three months of nineteen ninety three and now I'd like to hand you over to Frank , who will talk about the rest of our business. Thank you David. Good morning everyone. Last year in the er Annual Report er Michael and wrote we will continue to concentrate our efforts on cash generation and so obviously this is the er this has been the most important of our management actions. We've continued to focus on cash. We've concentrated on market share, we've been exercising cost reductions and we've been continuing with investment. Now how did we focus on cash? Well we er have programmes designed to encourage chief executives to er concentrate on cash generation. We've er added extra staff in, in er credit control departments where it's been necessary and by a process of education, at every Pearson seminar we rang home the message of the importance of cash and James provides examples of different methods of operating and the effect it has on cash and what happened to market share? Well we've er we've gained in, in many areas and held in all. Cost reductions there are many, many actions we've taken and so lots of the cost reduction is the accumulation of er of rather smaller ones, but the main ones are redundancy, sadly, more redundancy and we'll give you the numbers in a second er we've asked our suppliers for greater discounts or better discounts and been successful here. We control the pay round, the pay round increase in Pearson was less than three percent a a and we've continued with capital expenditure designed to reduce costs. Good example would be Penguin U S A er where we've er er put up a new building er in which to house a press to be by Donnelly which will allow much shorter print runs of our trade books and this should reduce the number of and as you know, that's one of the biggest problems facing the trade book industry . Another example would be the Talbot System and the Financial Times, which will provide full page make-up and is already yielding benefits and will continue to do so in ninety three and ninety four. But we've continued with investment to develop our business as well er and so we acquired Ventura which publishes the er Spot er books. We really in Paris and we invested th five point seven million in the toy ride at Alton Towers, er one point six million in the roller-coaster, we've authorized three point six five million to be used at er Warwick Castle to develop the King Maker Exhibition and we spent ten million on a new ride underground at Madame Tussauds in Marylebone Road, the Spirit of London. We've launched the series of six Beatrix Potter videos, the first two have been very successful, the first one sold three hundred and fifty thousand copies and is er I think it's number three in the best seller list and we'll give you one of these to take home and er and, and watch to your leisure. er we er launched the Medical Daily in Spain with our Spanish associates and we've introduced interactive videos that our er Natural Sciences Division have Addison Wesley and elsewhere. We move to redundancies, well there you will see that er er newspapers that is to say Westminster Press and Camco have borne the brunt er and I will say no more other than that the reduction in payroll year-on-year will be thirty million pounds. Moving to fine china, there was a very considerable overseas sales decline, particularly in Canada where there were lots of major retailers going bankrupt, but despite that, sales were over two hundred million for the fourth year in succession and we had a record December. This was achieved by altering the mix and concentrating more on the lower-priced er china such as erm chain stores and hotel and airline ware. In the U S we continued with our expansion by opening sixteen shops and our bridal wear in America was a market leader. Newspapers. Well there you'll see a summary. The F T Newspaper which includes magazines, electronic publishing and was up a bit. The F T Associates which is er includes the Economist in Spain was up a lot and Westminster Press was er was down, but of course Westminster Press took a major redundancy charge, they were also bringing on a new plant at Brighton and therefore running two plants simultaneously which is very costly er and they launched on Sunday. Again they charged against revenue but er I can assure you that er Westminster Press will increase its cash generation during this year. The Financial Times itself, the er trading profit was up ten percent, despite having to cope with an advertisement volume which is now higher than during the er seventy four recession. Cost cutting went on and as I say will continue in ninety three and ninety four. Circulation just about held its own in U K, but was up six point three percent in Europe and is now one hundred and thirteen thousand five hundred and the electronic publishing was up eighty one percent. There's Echo There's Echo goes from strength to strength to the extent that one of its competitors, the main competitor,Tribune del Expansione was obliged to merge with Lacoude Francais I mentioned earlier that Ensure was re-launched and er it achieved a circulation of a hundred and five thousand. In circulation of Les Ecca was up four percent year on year. The Economist circulation is now five hundred and twenty five thousand each week, and although their er year is out of sync with ours, I expect the profits for the year to be at or near record levels once again. Recollettas our Spanish investment paid off handsomely, profits more than doubled and Marker is er, the seven day a week sports paper, is now the er second biggest paper in Spain and has a higher readership than the first paper. Expansione the financial daily excuse me also increased its circulation once again and its profits. Moving to books and of course the books division er was the star this year I am pleased to stay. Starting off with Penguin. With record sales, record profit and record cash generation, they managed to reduce their inventory by thirty percent during the year and had the most ever number of best sellers on the New York Times best seller list, and that's continued into ninety three in January, we had eight on the New York Times best seller list. At Longman, here again, best ever sales profits and cash generation. In Spain, we took Hal Hambra from a loss to a profit and the award of the Albanta Prize by the Spanish government and this is an award given to the best new text book in, in the Spanish educational system each year. In Japan our small but beautiful medical information business increased its profits by forty five percent and Ladybird er we had a swing from a loss to a profit margin of ten percent. Addison Wesley er had a, yet again another year of progress. I am pleased to say we've taken the trading margin there from five percent to fourteen point two percent in the last four years. This was achieved with a higher erm educational higher education perform the industry in the year say and that was a major contributor and our Natural Sciences Division had its best ever sales. Entertainment and Media er the Tussaud Group had the highest ever attendances at Alton Towers, at Warwick Castle er and at Rock Circus. Scenerama in Holland performed above budget. Alton Towers in fact was a record turnover and profit and I think it justifies our marketing of goods I mentioned the two investments on new rides earlier and that was designed to move the audience from the white socks brigade to family unions, it seems to be working very well Peskibe continues to thrive, operational profits there are now well over a million a week and I think it's worth remembering that one subscriber may have three subscriptions say to two movie channels and one sports channels and if you count these individually, it means that we now have four point nine million subscriptions achieved during the second worst recession, recession this century. The churn rate is now down to eleven percent, the result of positive action that we've taken there and we expect to add a million homes during this year and the cable audience I am pleased to say is growing still very very slowly er but that should help as well. Now lastly er just to er just to indicate that virtue has its own reward, there's the record operating cash generation for you to see and on that note I'll pass you over to James . James. Thank you Frank. I don't know whether I'm virtue or the reward, but never mind! Er, back to the profit and analysis er remind you so far there's three which er you're all very I'm sure already familiar with but we have to explain to some of our less sophisticated audiences. Six sectors down ten percent, that of course included investment banking which we haven't touched on, but er the Lazard Houses profits were down a little less than ten percent which is rather good going, given their erm heavy specialist skills in M and A which were a little bit in short supply last year. Er looking at the rest of the P and L, you will see that we have split out a profit on sale of fixed assets which is our Lakeside erm Capelat and the Capco shares er which is why the corporate expenses for this other income has turned a way round, it's gonna be negative nowadays, so we thought it'd look a little silly saying other income less expenses. Erm operating profit therefore down eleven percent, that's er the ongoing businesses plus of course the impact of the erm er the sale of er Elsevere are holding in the first erm up to ten weeks of ninety one. Therefore although the interest charge is well down, profit before tax was down sixteen percent, it's down sixteen percent er because of course the old extraordinaries, the extraordinaries we had below the line in ninety one the eight million you see net profit on disposals are back above the line in under F R S Three, that's the Elsevere profit less the Smith Var losses very broadly speaking. Continuing down the and P and L account the erm tax charge, you've seen a note in the erm preliminary results present erm handout is not in fact up as a percentage if you look at the operating er if you look at it in operating terms, there was a tax credit in in extraordinaries last year this therefore had reduced the nineteen ninety one tax charge comparatively, strip it out and tax chargee share was around twenty nine percent. Primary earnings under F R S Three including everything down twenty one percent, but taking out the non-operating items, that's the erm fixed assets, er profit sales on the one hand and the old extraordinaries on the other, and you have I think a more meaningful guide to our performance a reduction in any nine percent. There were some significant erm factors that im impinged on profits i in nineteen ninety two and we've listed here the most important ones. To an extent tha they er offset each other as you can see, since the erm underlying operating performance, although less than the total in operating profit er was, was, was quite varied. The I, I'll run through them rather quickly. On the negatives there was the er resumption of a S S A P twenty four charge for U K pensions, a little less than we expected, we had a strong revaluation in mid-year, the incremental redundancy costs that Frank has already touched upon and er the er dis er the discontinued profits not in ninety two. Offsetting that with the Smith Mark, losses and the one-time provision for the Penguin U S Leases, that was all taken care of in nineteen ninety one and the benefit from our fully benefit from our ninety one acquisitions and little bit in ninety two. If I turn from the P and L Account to the operating cash flow, er you've got the F R S One cash flow in your er in your pack in the preliminary announcement obviously, but we er don't find it terribly helpful, it's not the way we manage the business so I thought you erm would forgive us if we present it in the way we think it's a little easier to follow. Now this slide really takes the behind, takes us behind the first figure on the on the consolidated F R S One cash flow table and it really traces hard despite the reduction in profits, the very strong performance in working capital that Frank eluded to earlier means that er we actually end up with a net cash flow for operating activities more than thirty five million pounds higher. I'd just like to elude to the er positive string on exchange, we take our profits in during the year at an average rate, but the cash benefit obviously er year on year is, is better than that er to the extent that the erm dollar has strengthened throughout the year or by the year end against the pound and we get the full benefit of that in our cash flow. Reduction in capital expenditure er broadly offset the reduced erm income from partnerships and associates which is basically our Lazard income, that's so the very good er contribution we got in ninety one reflected the nineteen ninety er profits they were earning. Operating cash flow as we look on it, well up. The reduction in interest broadly matched the increase in tax paid between the two years, so the net movement of funds from operations are a critical parameter for whether we're really generating cash for new initiatives, significantly better at forty five point six million and this this excludes the proceeds of fixed asset disposals, so all in all we had pretty nearly sixty million cash free and clear. Not a lot was spent on acquisitions er and not really any material disposals other than the ones already referred to. The change in net debt, er worth referring worth mentioning minus three point three million that much worse would have been significantly lower thirty five million or so lower if we'd had the same year end exchange rate as we did in nineteen ninety one. I turn from this rather convoluted erm aspect of cash flow back to the balance sheet. Balance sheets really haven't changed either er formally the way we publish them to you or the way we look at it, them ourselves. Er really no great change here, small improvement in capital and small increase in capital employed and of course with little change in net debt and the shareholders' funds have gone up. If you look at the net debt in greater detail it is still the difference between erm substantial gross debt and substantial amounts of cash, each of which have gone up somewhat during the year. The significant change I think is in the balance of debt between fixed and variable rate, where we took a conscious decision and been working it through to take more advantage of the prospective and er decline, it was prospective earlier in the year er in selling interest rates and the continued low er short-term rates in the United States. The upshot of the erm the year of course has been rather a healthy lot of financial ratios. We've er we're showing the dividend cover in a variety of ways because it's I think not clear that any one measure is, is only er the way of calculating it. Under F R S Three which is the erm everything above the line earnings a a covers down, earnings down from two one to one six, not much change on the adjusted earnings which we think is perhaps more meaningful and if you look at the cash generation the test of whether you can pay it a very significant improvement from one two to one point seven times. Interest cover er has improved accordingly, you saw the interest charge was, was usefully down and erm the ratio is low and has remained low. So on that healthy note I'd like to hand you back to Michael to summarize. I'm optimistic about nineteen ninety three. I can't of course foretell er what's gonna happen in Eastern Europe, but looking externally er at the lower interest rates and the er more competitive value of the pound and internally at the improved cash flow and the actions that we've been taking over for the past couple of years and I can say that there's now generally a more optimistic feeling in the air amongst our group companies. As you've heard we've been cutting costs pretty significantly over the last couple of years erm what we're talking about is three thousand people having been er made redundant over the two and a half years and as we were saying earlier substantial redundancy costs have had to be borne. Nineteen ninety three is gonna be the first year in which the full benefits of this cost cutting are gonna come through and whilst it's always a continuing process and there will be some further redundancies, I am glad to say that we believe that the bulk of the redundancies are now behind us. We've re-aligned our cost space which makes us more profitable at the existing levels of demand and potentially very profitable indeed er er when you consider that we have the capacity to respond to any upturn in demand without increasing our costs. The underlying point I'd just like to give an example er of how the F T would benefit er if a recovery takes place. For every extra hundred fee of advertising revenue we add seventy five P to operate in profit. Any upturn in demand also produces a substantial improvement in profit in several other of our businesses, for instance Westminster Press,Les Echo Lazards Tussaud and I'd like to remind people that we're a very second half oriented company and that in the first half of nineteen ninety two we had some major one-off contributions to profits which very much helped the figures, but nonetheless, we're pleased at the way the trading profits of the operating companies are moving. It's early days er to make predictions, but we're off to a positive start for the year. Thank you very much and we'd like now to answer any questions that you may have. Yes? We have microphones. Do you want to say who we are? Sorry? Do you want to say who we are? No, I, I think we know. Okay. Erm the Financial Times you showed er I think including the F T Group and Les Echo er in, in the profit analysis, but you did say that their operating profit was up ten percent th the F T Group which I take it to mean they made fourteen point three, leaving I think four point two to Les Echo You did also say that Les Echo had gone from strength to strength but f from my figures I think it's a third successive decline in their profit. Would you like to, to explain what from strength to strength means or whether I've got my figures wrong erm a and, and perhaps give an idea of what from strength to strength will mean in coming years? Er I think in this context strength to strength is talking about market share, erm Frank er was saying how we've made considerable gains in relation to the opposition and er such an extent that in fact er it had to join up with the er er er with the other financial newspaper, but Frank would you, would you like to add? Yes. The circulation is erm is has grown every year we've had it and that's very important because erm a lot of the subscrip a lot of the circulation of Les Echo is in fact a subscription in advance such it's cash generating qualities are high even when the profits are down. Now the profits are down erm mainly because of the er the recession in France which started later than U K, and secondly because we've er we've er re-launched Bonjour and so we have the re-lau re-launch cost there. Er James would you like to Well I think Robert's, er I mean Robert's always a good guide on these matters I mean the F The F T The F T itself as it were profits were up erm about up to about fourteen million and erm Les Echo was just over four. Yes? I'm er Sorry I'm curious about the oil services. The profit was down thirty million or so and if we look at the geographic breakdown of profit, er the U S A was up er and yet if er Addison Wesley was about the same Penguin was up ten so where did this thirty million drop in profits at oil services arise, was it in the U K and Singapore as opposed to the U S or, or was there something different about Penguin U S compared with Penguin U K? David, would you like to? Well I think if I could ask James to help on the geographic spread of the profits overall and then I could perhaps supplement that afterwards on the oil services. The erm, yes Camco's profits were down in the U S, but Penguin North America was substantially up, erm and Addison Wesley of course was up in erm dollar terms. Th this er the, the small increase in sterling of er Addison Wesley in fact under er I mean it didn't do them justice in dollar terms they were up fourteen percent. Erm th that's the main er so overall you had a net gain in fact to erm U S profits er Camco erm I think less than that erm Camco's profits to were spread fairly broadly geographically er as you do know it does operate as you do rightly point out erm pretty much everywhere else and it's erm featured both in South America and Asia's decline and Africa, but not in Europe. It was up in Europe but down in the U K. Yes? Erm can I just clarify that the thirty million of erm savings, was that actual redundancy costs which took place in ninety two or was that redundancy costs plus the sav commensurate savings which will then benefit ninety three er or was it just the savings? Frank, would you? Erm, I think what I said was that as a result of these actions, the payroll would be thirty million less in ninety three than ninety two. That's what I was meaning. So that doesn't include any redundancy costs? Well the redundancy costs erm er taken in ninety two so But does the thirty million include the redundancy costs or is that just the savings? The redundancy costs are part of the savings. No the no listen the redundancy cost is taken in, in ninety two an and therefore the payroll is better is less by thirty million in ninety three, so that's that's the benefit there. Costs are in ninety two and therefore there was a cha there was a charge there was a net charge in ninety two and in ninety three the payroll will be thirty million less than it would have been. In ninety two there were redundancy costs to some extent offset by some er savings in payroll, there'll by no redundancy cost relating to those previous redundancies in ninety three, but there will be the full saving on the payroll. So anyway Yes we can. thirteen million Is that thirteen or thirty million? Thirteen, one figures one three. That's the gross cost actual cost of redundancies. Obviously there's some depending when they, depending on what time of the year you will get some of the savings. Michael can I add something? Yes. I'd just like to add that included in the numbers that I gave you for Camco were not just redundancy costs, but costs of closures of sales offices, distribution networks and some other special one-time charges, so it's not pure redundancy when you look at the numbers that I gave you earlier on. Sorry, we had a question. Over here Go on. The erm on the cash flow numbers exchange and other erm can, can you split out what the er what the figures actually were, how much they and James. Erm yes I mean they're I'm groping for my briefing papers a complicated one this. Er it's mainly er the change in, in foreign currency debt erm and erm the year end debt er er erm the point is we had rather more dollars at the beginning of the year than at the end of the year erm and erm which, which complicates matters, but if you look at our year end debt in dollar terms th erm there was a thirty nine million pound erm adverse movement year on year as a result of that. The rest of provision the rest of the, of the movement are things like provisions which increased during the year much smaller number. That, that brings you up to the Yes? Erm over the last three years . Is that right? Sorry, the? profits. Oh yes. They will not occur in ninety three. I thought you said Camco from Capco sorry, yeah. Other way round. Yes. Big difference. Big difference. Involved, in, in that conglomeration. Well th the profits of the sale fixed assets that the shares and would be if there were any the sale profits on the sale of any other pieces of land at Lakeside or indeed elsewhere in the group and we sold a site not in ninety two, it was ninety one at Frinton I think you'll remember that so small profits. Correct. Therefore what is now called corporate this other income is the erm basically head office cost, there's things like profits on from our captive insurance er dividends which we didn't have it in fact last year we did the year before from Blackpool land, small profits from the sale of some shares at Fair and other odds and ends which I erm really don't make up a great deal. Yeah any other current assets sales. That's basically it, current asset and investment sales. Okay Ken. twelve months ago you sorry twelve months ago you possibility that the falling out of the capital and accounts profits might be replaced by er taking some credit for the obvious major turnaround of B-Sky-B and I wonder whether you could elucidate on the prospects of that? Mm. Well I would, I would, I would just comment that there er in profits have er have it doesn't mean to say that we won't have some profits from our estate at Thurrock because there are other areas of land involved, but they won't be so substantial and for B-Sky-B I would turn to Frank. Er well erm Pearson is always er er rather cautious of these things, but I think have, are, are very cautious and might take the view if things progress as they are er in the second half of this year that we will er take some credit. James. We've got erm yes we've got quite a lot of land stock interest we might have accrued er and haven't, erm thirty million pounds in fact, but erm it hasn't been accrued because in our view it's some years off for being paid, but we think er or so I'm informed by the Chairman of B-Sky-B er that things are going quite well and erm therefore this year er there is a case for saying we shall start to accrue some of the backlog er to the extent, but only to the extent we will expected to be paid shortly thereafterwards. We don't want to accrue er interest even if it's being expenses by B-Sky-B if it's not going to actually be paid for many years, but to the extent that it's er likely to turn into cash in the relatively near future, then I think we would erm think it's now time to start addressing that issue and the result would be that we should probably erm accrue some reasonable and not very substantial amount of back-interest er in the current financial year. We have two questions, Robert would you like to address? Yes First of all the interest er it ranks higher up the hierarchy. to this year's figures when reported next year? Don't think so. No. No, no it would just bring it up to date, the stuff we haven't accrued. of the accrued guarantee Yes, if you'll give me a moment to find them. And while we're waiting? Yes. Frank? I, I'm not sure what you mean by the costs. excluded the double running of er redundancy costs and the other items we just mentioned. Erm I think that would, that would add about erm say about f four, four and a half million to the profit and the second part of the question Ken? Well we told Westminster Press to introduce a budget on the basis that even if there was no revenue increase, er we would achieve a, a respectable trading margin erm and so that will happen. Now that the only thing to offset th that this year will be the continuing development losses of on Sunday. Current trading is erm current trading is improving and I would say that er that the last three weeks have been the strongest weeks this year. It's improving as the year goes on. Er I think there's er one problem of course is that regional newspapers do depend on situations vacant quite a bit and the situations vacant market isn't improving dramatically. Can I just answer the question I, I dodged? Eleven million erm, but they're some way down the track, they're not at the top of the hierarchy Erm the cash as and when it does start coming through from er from B-Sky-B and the fact that you've actually er promised some of that to read in lieu of the increased er erm equity stake indirect equity stake. How can you actually account for that because either you could er increase your profits by the accrued amounts and then somewhere else balance sheet and should pay for your acquisition Yes well we haven't promised that amount, we've promised an amount equivalent to what we were gonna get carefully. I E we're not er we're not the erm the interest and dividend we will be making cash amounts cash payments to read equal to the amounts we actually get from B-Sky-B as and when we get them, but we will therefore accrue them as income and the payments we've made will be payments that will be part of the cost of the investment. Okay and you said you'd start accruing the er erm the interest as and when the er time you were gonna receive the cash became er reasonably clear Thank you. So that the incremental, only the incremental erm in respect of the incremental er er er percentage. You're quite right. Yes. At the erm at the meeting recently they, they made it clear that er the deal has not yet been finalized. Can you, can you give us any idea when it'll close? This week. Friday Sorry. David and I. Yes. Do you wanna, do you wanna start? I'll let you start You want me to start. I, I, well let me start first of all like most companies this has been erm er concentrated wonderfully in er reconsidering the plans and this means that quite seriously that erm er the cost cannot be precisely in the accounts because there's a redesign . It's a bit of oh my God, I didn't realize we let ourselves in for that much and I, I don't think that's quite fair of us, although I think we, we had a but some operating companies were, have certainly realized that they had erm material potential liabilities down the track led to redesign. Erm the I think er two comments for David is close to this and the one that we don't expect the P and L charge starting in ninety three and going onwards to be quotes material I E it's getting quite modest, it's not sort of mega bucks. It is relating obviously not entirely, but overwhelmingly to U S employers. Secondly there would be a one-time hit for Pryers and that would buy a Pryer adjustment, er we're not gonna spread it forward. Did everybody hear the question? Yes. Well,i i if I, the,on one of the comments I'd make is that it's the only time I've ever known the accounting profession to do businessmen a favour by forcing them to face up to what the costs of the consequences of their actions are and this has as James said led to looking quite carefully and I think it's difficult to quantify the cost at the moment for a variety of reasons. We have overhauled the plans in some of the companies, we've considered changes that should be done to erm make them more, actually more cost effective for the employee, there's an element of shifting the cost to the employee while still providing them with coverage and I think the other thing is that erm given the the redundancies that have gone on in Camco and other parts of the group and cost cutting generally, it's very difficult at this stage to predict you have all sorts of things like actuarial assumptions erm cost inflation of medical costs. I mean I don't wanna make it sound like it's,i i i it's, it's an impossible thing, but it's very difficult at this stage to forecast, but James' basic assertion that it isn't a very material number is correct. Yes Charles? Er sorry. A question on the er oil service operations. I think at one point that the cash flow figure of fourteen point three million appeared. Can you say how much was taken out of working capital at the er oil services operations last year and a supplementary point assuming that about seventy percent of oil service revenues were international, international last year, er how significant would the North Sea be within that international figure and t to what degree have the budget changes impacted there or will impact there, because we're already starting to hear some er fairly nasty noises aren't we from ? Perhaps David might like to deal with North Sea first and then James. With the the financial question? Yeah I think on the North Sea, it obviously would have erm an effect on parts of our business, some parts more than others erm it's very early to say exactly what, what effect it obviously in fact to the extent that it encourages the further development of existing fields that clearly benefits parts, parts of our business that are to do with completion equipment and development equipment. Er the worst side obviously will be the drill bit side where Retool is not very significant in the North Sea Hycal on the other hand has a very strong market presence here er and Reler being submersible pumps and base based in enhanced recovery I would say the effect would be relatively neutral, though they do a lot of business with companies like B P who are said to be one of the beneficiaries. I mean I think the, I, I think it can effect this, but not that materially erm there are many as you know different provinces round the world and what happens in the C I S is, is obviously very important for the Middle East and so erm it will have an impact. Perhaps a erm perhaps a lesser impact than on the economy of Great Britain in the long run as to, as to whether those resources are developed effectively. Working capital reduction of by Camco Yes. the six million erm U K pension cost isn't ongoing level and just going back to that er post-retirement medical benefits it wouldn't be material I mean definition material can be er something less than five percent of profits. Are we talking about a figure that could be approaching that sort of level, or substantially lower? Er one question less than five percent it will not be but I don't want to go and indeed I, for reasons that er David outlined, I can't go, can't be precise, but er it's not something to get scared about. Er, do you wanna add? I was only gonna say we're, we will probably have a much clearer idea by the time we get to the results. The, the U K pension charge will er er er go up to the extent that pensionable salaries go up, there's a standard surplus being amortized au fait gently rising pension, I mean there's obviously there's an X percent of pensionable salaries is what the will tell you will have to provide and er er not much more at the moment er therefore the charge will go up a little bit but not, not gradually and it's not much. There's two questions though. Erm, I'm sorry to come back to the central overheads er again, but erm it, considering that the other income largely related to ninety one, I'm a little unclear why the central costs went down, I can't believe there's been any salary cuts at No we're not that. Er no we had some larger other income erm I'm turning up the detail as we speak. There were the sale of er the shares of erm Cedar Fair, our current, which is one of our current assets and investments. We sold one percent, one percent David? Yes. Erm towards the end of the year and the erm and Spear erm Spear had rather a good year, so that's our capital insurance company in Bermuda erm no claims. So that had rather er I mean that made er made it's not big potatoes, but it made more than a year ago and there were small movements on provision adjustments. That's all, so the the income was up, costs were costs were marginally down costs were down. reduction of the costs appears in ink. Mr must have been very austere with his colleagues or On the oil services division are there likely to be any further technology transfers this year and er secondly could David give some idea of the impact of the proposed B T U Tax in the United States? On the technology transfer er I don't think that there will be any income this year, if there is it will be quite modest, we're talking about three to four million dollars and it's related to follow-up payments for training. In fact given the, what's happened politically in what was Czechoslovakia and is now the Czech Lands and Slovakia, erm and the financial pressures in Slovakia it's not certain to me that the whole arrangement will go forward. There's no problem from our point of view if that happens, but we're looking you know quite closely at it and we'll wait and see what happens. So far as the B T U Tax is concerned, erm it's really a political issue as to where the administration or the Congress in the end decide to place the tax, I mean in very simple terms the nearer you place it to the consumer, the more effective it is, but the less politically palatable it is which because consumers vote and oil companies don't an and so er I think it will be political pressure to push it nearer to the well head which will be less good for the oil and gas producers. I suspect a classic Washington compromise in the end. adverse variance fee this year? No I don't think so, but I mean I think on the whole that the pop the admin the erm Clinton Administrations Policy is to try and encourage the development of nat the use of natural gas, it's environmentally er more acceptable and so I don't see any particular erm direct threat this year. Yes? what average rate did you pay on it and what average rate are you paying this year? Erm average net debt was down. I haven't got er I have to give you the figure afterwards erm no I have got it, I have got it. Erm it was about a hundred and fifty million, but I haven't got it for nineteen ninety one erm Lorna, sorry you had some more questions parts B, C and D Average rate. Er accrued rate accrued rate was about erm on the, on the, on the interest charge was eight nine, but erm er there are a lot of adjustments in there which we've looked at. I mean let's take one er because of the hyper- inflation in Venezuela you pay fifty percent on debt there. Er we have some credit. Well that's two million pounds interestingly erm there are costs er er er we had some of our U S interest rates and we er that actually was an outgoing erm there, there are lots of other pluses and minuses and we, you can kid yourself the rate being eight point nine accrued and five and a half adjusted er if you want to think you know if you th think the treasury job was a good one, but erm the truth lies somewhere in between I suspect. what do you think the average ? The average interest rate? Erm I, I'll come back to you on that one. Yes. Can you tell us a little about the prospects of fine china in ninety three? Well I think er what I'll do because Stuart who's the C E O rather happens to be with us er I think I'll ask Stuart if he would like to make a few remarks. Stuart? It's really too early to say. The first three months of this year we've had an increase in sales, but those have really been attributable to improved er t to stronger U S and Canadian currency rates. Erm volumes are about level with last year and the improvement in profits is related to currency changes. So I, I wouldn't to be drawn on that Royal Doulton was late into this cycle and it's a little later than the publishing companies coming out. Yes? ninety two, ninety three and ninety four. Yes. Who would like to do that? Erm There wasn't much from our point of view from Addison Wesleys in ninety two. Bills up in ninety three and ninety four. The revise is every year. Th there's a revision each year, but there's no major reduction er programmes this, in the current year. In fact this is a year when we're spending for the next adoptions. Yes? prospects there? Well, er I think that and I get it James and I go to Friday Lazard meetings, I think there is er a erm better feeling and we would look for progress in ninety three. Is, is there Er in Lazard Brothers in particular? Yes. Erm With Yes I think th that, that er it did give, it did, it did give opportunities, but I mean it's not a, it's not an enormously major erm part of our overall Lazard business. Er James would you like to add? Yeah I mean I er er er clearly like m m most banks,th th th they found some useful opportunities in September, but I mean I don't say they're not huge players they don't have enormous capital they're not strict punters in, in, in any of the markets. Yes? Sorry, would you like Has there been any major change in the distribution of debt and cash erm of nineteen ninety two er compared to nineteen ninety one? No other than the er er er the currencies pretty much the same er as I said of the important changes i is a much heavier emphasis on variable rates . Yes A are you still intending to favour internal spending vis-a-vis acquisition opportunities on the basis that acquisitions are just too overpriced or with the eleven percent gearing do you think you will be er jumping at the bit a bit fairly soon? Er I think, I think that er our organic growth tends to be erm er er continuous and er as you know each year we're spending erm substantial amounts er on that er we prefer organic growth to acquisitions because we avoid er premiums in the long run er frequently er organic growth is, is actually more profitable er but we are quite likely to make some acquisitions er if erm the right er strategic opportunities er are created. We o er as, as you know we always review er er er er our businesses as subject to a continual view, I have nothing er active to report on that front. Yes? erm shareholding in the current year? It's stayed around about the eight just over eight percent, there hasn't, there hasn't been much movement. Just on the export front increased optimism er can you just verify what export sales were last year and whether or not you managed to er er hold er local county prices overseas in respect of those exports? And what Y sort of kick-offs if any there was on in transactional terms last year Royal Doulton month erm sorry eighteen month type basis? Yes. James? Erm well you've Stuart who erm had it at his fingertips equally, but er they have substantial, I, I'll let him talk about oh, over fifty percent export are you not Stuart? Your turn er and they have erm they do hedge this is I mean our policy is broadly to hedge er o on a twelve month rolling forecast forward er to what extent and what timing is a function of judgment and it is true that the erm er Doulton receivables for ninety three are seventy percent hedged already at a little above the current spot rate. Erm but er er I think will provide still very good factory profit for them and there is also of course er this, there's still more to come. Th they're our largest exporter er there's inter-company sales which would gen can generate quite useful profits since they get sold on both of er Penguin companies er and Longman of course has a high content of erm er of er non-U K sales and Addison Wesley also er I mean Camco was the most international, but it's erm not er it's not an exporter in sterling denominated terms. Er but I think also the lower value of the pound er affects Madame Tussaud and the number of visitors here and Michael C O Madame Tussaud, would you Michael like to comment on tourist numbers? Er obviously the erm better for overseas visitors pound will help tourism in this country, particularly in London erm the Chairman says Madame Tussauds in fact gets about sixty percent visitors over from overseas,Rock Circus at the moment is about fifty percent and it's still rising, which partially explains why it had a very good year last year. Warwick Castle gets about forty percent of visitors from overseas with whom a large proportion are Americans, and er I suggest that the increase in Americans this year will be quite good compared with figures for last year, so we do benefit er I might even mention that in Holland er over half the visitors Exhibition in Amsterdam are not Dutch, many of them are Germans, but there are also Americans and of course other overseas visitors there. So erm foreign earnings is important for us. Our parks, Alton Towers and Chessington get a very insignificant amount of overseas visitors which is normal for such places in this country and many other places in the world. But erm, we're reasonably optimistic about visitor numbers. The concern in London particularly of course is the incidents of terrorist in of terrorist incidents, and that undoubtedly affected er visitation in London, not just at our places, but in most tourist attractions, particularly towards the end of last year. On the other hand it has to be said that the er publicity for that does not seem to have penetrated very far amongst foreign visitors and there isn't very much evidence that foreign visitors have been put off coming here in spite of the considerable number of incidents that there have been in this country, particularly in London of course in the last year or so. It's affected mainly the U K visitors. So we try not to mention them. We try not to mention David. Did you did you consider er an accelerated second interim dividend? I'm glad you asked that erm yes we did, we did give it consideration er er we decided against it, because it would have meant er to declaring the dividend on Friday for technical reasons and announcing our results erm today and this could have been in danger of misleading er the market er because this lower results and we have an increased dividend and that was erm probably the main reason why we decided that we wouldn't do it er the slight increase in net dividend in fact should compensate erm and this is coincidence er er f fo for the increased A C T on the Yes? Could you give us some indi give us some indication as to how erm supportable the excellent performance in Penguin is likely to be through nineteen ninety three looking forward, you obviously have a particularly high level of best sellers? Well it was a particularly er high level of best sellers to erm er er Stephen King's erm and what I'm glad to say is that this is continuing into ninety three and I think we've got eight er eight best sellers on the, on the New York Times best seller list, so er you know prospects for ninety three also look, look, look good. Yeah I believe recently have indicated they will start B-Sky-B will you and if so, when? James? Well they said maybe they will, maybe they won't according to the press releases that turn up. Erm I think we're er er we're quite clear at the moment that the correct erm interpretation of it from our point of view is as a fixed asset investment and unless something changes in the er constitution of the company, erm although it may be erm the guiding thing become profitable I think one's got to play by the rules and the rules at the moment say it isn't one. Which doesn't mean to say we won't have substantial erm P and L er contribution fro from B-Sky-B. Any more questions er? Well thank you very much indeed for coming and er then if anybody wants to ask any further questions privately, they're welcome. How did you get on last week? Er we won two games and lost the other two. Smashing. Right. Well, well not smashing that you lost two, right. Can we just get the prayer out and start by saying the prayer together please. You haven't got it . Use use . Right okay. Pour out your spirit upon your people and grant us a new vision of your glory, a new experience of your power, a new faithfulness to your word, a new consecration to your service, that your love may grow among us and your kingdom come. Through Christ, Our Lord. Amen. Right. Now last week and on Sunday we talked about again about the seven gifts of the Holy Spirit. Can you remember any of them? Did you do the work on Saint Stephen by the way? Er The first martyr? No I don't think s no. Have you got it from last wee the week before? Yeah, I think so. You were supposed to read through it and have a look. If you want to It's at the very back, I can see it . Oh no. No I haven't done that. Right. Well i that was to sort of try and make you focus on the gifts of the Holy Spirit that we're going to receive, that we receive through or that you have strengthened through Confirmation, rather than receiving because they're already there. They have to be already there or it doesn't er really work. Right erm Can you think can you remember any of the gifts that we talked about? Er I know it's a week and a half ago but . See what you can try. Is it like an anoint an erm anointing ? No the gifts that you receive or Erm No. Do you want to get out the sheet then with the gifts on that we lo you looked at. I keep saying we looked at cos I looked at it on Sunday and This one? Yes, that's Yeah. right. Right they're the sort of they're the go they're good titles. Wisdom, understanding, right judgement, courage, knowledge, awe and wonder and reverence. They're sort of things to focus on points of focus within when you're receiving Confirmation of the ways in which through Confirmation you can enhance the gifts which you already have and focus in on the power of the Holy Spirit through those gifts. Right. Erm if you have a look at the the Stephen, we'll go over I think the Stephen first martyr because without that really I think that'd be quite a good focus of of er for the talking about the gifts. Right. Have you read the story? Do you know the story of Stephen? Erm I'm not sure. Mm. Do you want to just quickly read it through? There's no point in me reading it out is there? Just want to read it Don't bother writing it, we'll just read Mm. it and talk about it and you can write it in some other time. Mm. Read it? Yeah. Read it? Right. Now that says Stephen was a man filled with the Holy Spirit. His death an life and death showed the power of the Holy Spirit working in him. He showed the gifts of the Holy Spirit. He sto showed the gift of what when he spoke out fearlessly? Erm What would you say? Look at the Courage. That's right. Or that's a good. The Stephen They're not all I mean I'm saying that's right but that some of them there are more than one answer to. But erm sometimes That that was pretty obv that's an obvious one I should say. She Stephen showed the gift of something when he preached the truth about God and the message of Jesus. What would you say? Right judgement. Right judgement? Yeah. Right and the next one then. Stephen, faced the difficult choice between life and the love of God, showed the gift of Reverence. Mm. Yeah it is reverent, to be reverence, yes. Power to love God and each other as we should. Yeah. But Right. It it's a difficult choice between life and love of God. Had to choose. What would you do if you're choosing? Don't you think that's more right judgement? Yeah. Because that's you know he's he's making the right choice making the right judgemen judgement. Yeah. Right. Stephen showed the gift of what when he forgave his executioners? Even then he still loved them. It might not be there, there are other ones. They're just useful headings, but if you can think of something else What would you say? Con you think of anything else? Understanding. Understanding yeah. Mercy really isn't it? He showed mercy I mean he Yeah. showed mercy on them even though they did not show mercy on him. Right the rest of them I don't really want to go through it too much because that's that was just to show you an example. Can you think of any more modern day people that you think could inspire you and can show the gifts of the Holy Spirit in their lives? I mean Stephen is a heck of a long time ago, he's the very first martyr, and we although we celebrate his feast day still on December the twenty sixth because he is the first martyr, he's quite a long way away. Although a lot of his story is still relevant to us cos you can see it in today's life when people stand up for themselves or stand up for their faith or what they believe in and you look around you, you can see violence and being done to them. But can you think of anybody for yourself who you could think of who over the recently or over the in the past few centuries or closer to home have shown the gifts of the Holy Spirit in their lives? Well the Prime Minister right right judgement and wisdom . Most of the time. . No I mean er yeah okay, fair enough. But can you think of anyone who stands out as being somebody who really does their bit and yet does it possibly with humility or erm I'm thinking of rather than saying sort of a general terminology of sort of Prime Ministers or what have you, erm I'm thinking if you can think of a a particular person? Father Chris. Oh I'm sure he'd be very pleased to hear that. Yeah. Smashing. Anybody a bit more famous? I'm sure Father Chris would be pleased to hear that and would be very flattered to hear that as well but erm he's erm I'm sure he does try to live by those rules because er obviously that's one of the bases of his life but erm I was thinking more in terms of somebody who stood up for themse stood up for what they believe in in a situation where it was difficult. Cos with the best will in the world Father Chris really doesn't face an awful lot of opposition does he? Yeah. You know where he lives in England we're very quite a generally quite a tolerant or comparatively quite a tolerant society. Or somebody has stood up and done their best for their particular community or somebody's stood up and done their best to Or has moved to somewhere. Any ideas? Any suggestions? No? Mother Theresa? Yeah. Mm. Yeah? Yeah. You know about Mother Theresa do you? Yeah. Right. Her whole point in life is that people criticize her because she does erm she can only actually look after a very small percentage of the people in Calcutta who need help and they all sort of say, Well she does that bit but what about the rest of them? And she says that she does what she can in her own way, she tries her best to do what she can to help. Right. Erm obviously it's not just those who are famous who show the power of the Spirit in their lives, you know everybody does. There are different ways of doing it with different people erm who do share it. There's a few examples here, Mother Theresa was one that sprung sprang to my mind when I was thinking it through. Erm Can you show can you tell me any ways in which you I presume you know about Mother Theresa you know quite a bit about her life do you? I just like know she helps people in Calcutta and helps the poor in Yeah. She does she goes out and she also goes round and she fund raises for her own for her own er work as well. Not so much now because of ill health but she used to. She speaks out, she lets people know what's happening. So can you tell me looking at those seven could you tell me which you would say immediately comes to mind with Mother Theresa? Understanding. Yeah. Mm. Definitely why? How? Cos she understands that she's got to help God I mean people around her that are suffering. Yeah. Any others? Courage to stand up for er erm what she believes in. Yeah. Any others? Right judgement. How? Well she's erm j erm She's made a right judgement about erm to help people and not just to sit there watching telly or something. Yeah. So she's doing something Er it is in a difficult situation and she knows what to do. Yeah. Any others any other gifts that you think she's shown that aren't on there? Love for the people around her. That's right. And through her love also she shows great respect because the people that she's dealing with are considered in Indian society to be the dregs of humanity. Indian er in India still has a very class-ridden society and er you know from the the top caste do not even associate with the lower castes and there is a terrific there's still a terrific sense of that. I was talking to a friend of mine actually on Monday who is erm parti partially Indian and come from India and from Calcutta and she is high caste but she's a Catholic as well so she's her attitude's different she's lived in England most of her life but she can't get over the attitude of some of her relatives in India to the poor because they're lower caste. It's still there. Right. I want to just have a look at this. It's a two-part thing. Erm it's erm this is people or stories but a based again I'm sure when y as you read through you'll probably find quite a lot of the erm little things that they're giving you here you could relate to in your own life, either for yourself or for other people that you know. Erm if you have a look through them and then have a quick write down of what gifts you think the different ones that are mentioned in this are using. Okay?. Should I write down ? Yeah, write on it and see what you think . Mm. Sorry you can't work in pairs which is what they did on Sunday . I suppose you could you could work with me but er I don't think that's quite the idea. Unless you want to just discuss it and mark it down as we're going through. Try to think not just of those, although they can u you can use those as guidelines. Try and think of any others that er re be respect? Cos er Yes. That's a good one. Anything else? Understanding cos Mm. she understands Any others? Not on there really. Friendship. Yeah. Courage to like Mm. Yeah I agree with you because it is sometimes quite difficult for somebody who's handicapped to find the courage to go out. Mm. If they go into town together, yeah. That's a good one. Actually I don't think that one cropped up last week on Sunday. I don't think anybody said courage for her. I think they said friendship and respect and understanding but I don't think anybody said courage. What else is Kirsty using there? Friendship Friendship yeah obviously yeah. It's a shame actually they don't say how with cerebral palsy it can be a mild handicap or a major handicap. I mean it can be aware you can be aware of somebody with cerebral palsy having cerebral palsy and you can also be totally unaware that they have it. Yeah I agree with you. Right the second one, do you want to have a look at the second one? Right judgement Yeah I would s I would guess so or I would think so as well. I'm not really doing that right because I mean I shouldn't agree I What you say is right whether I agree with it or not . I said, Oh yes that's right yeah, but it's not right . . It is right but it's not that's not the whole point of this exercise. The point is for you to think decide what you think . Right. Did their form teacher use any gifts? How could the form teacher have approached this? could have said No it'll cost a lot of money or something. Yeah. What did he actually do? Did she did did something about it and So what did the form teacher do? They came up with the idea, what did the form teacher do? Put it into action. I don't think he actually d or she whichever it is the form teacher actually did that did they? It was the two boys who s who set up put it into action. So what did the form teacher actually do? Gave them permission to erm So Yeah? I mean he didn't really give He was only you know just like erm just used his authority just to say Yeah . So what's Yeah but he could have turned round and said No, so what's he actually done? Understand =standing Understanding and? Erm Encouragement isn't it. I mean he's actually encouraged them, he's said, Yes okay fine, go ahead, let's sort it out, let's do something about it. Joined possibly joined in with them although it doesn't actually say. Mm. It says They talked to their form teacher about this and have formed a tree planting group in school . I presume it means John and Andy have formed a tree planting group in school not the teacher. But he did use the gift of encouragement didn't he? Yeah. And knowl er what did you say? Er one you said? Understanding, mm. Understanding, yeah. What about the rest of the class? Did they did they join the tree Well presumably if they started a tr a group haven't they . So what were they doing? Erm helping. That's right. Helping. They were encouraging again, Mm. weren't they, and erm supporting helping them and supporting them weren't they? Because they could have turned round Er they wouldn't have got as much done if there'd just been the two boys together. Yeah? Mm. Any others? Right okay. read it through. What would you say what gifts is Mr Richardson Richards using Courage to Courage yeah to Yeah yeah that's a good one that I don't think that one came up either last time. That's really good so courage yeah what else? He's telling stories probably about the past what is he showing? And what will she be should we be ready to see in older people? What about wisdom? What do you think? That's one that struck me. Yeah. Yeah do you agree with me or not. If you don't agree with me please say I won't be offended at all if you disagree. Because often I mean wisdom to help us to judge no not really judging is he? He is using wisdom and er his wisdom of life or knowledge of like perhaps rather than wisdom. I meant wisdom in the other meaning. Knowledge of life cos he's talking to his grandson. Telling stories. Erm Right if you don't agree don't er do say please do say because if you don't agree I'd rather hear your views Yeah? Okay. Right what gifts is Mike using? Love Yeah. because so he can just like pop in every day Mm. . Good. Anything else? Understanding. Yeah I think that's very important that one because he understands he sees the loneliness that his grandfather's feeling. He's sufficiently aware to know that er he can't get out much, he's on his own, he's lonely especially if he's not in very good health. So he can't do ou he can't go out and about. anything else? Right judgement cos Mm. What else they usually have a good laugh. Friendship. Mm yeah. They're friends aren't they. Mm. They usually have a good laugh sense of humour any of those. Right don't need to write all those down let's have a look at the next one then. Right gifts is using? Understanding she understands . What else do she do? How would you feel about standing up in front of a group of people and telling them something about I mean in her situation telling her class or even the whole what you were doing. I think scared. So what's she showing there if she's Courage. Yeah I think so. And Some people some people it wouldn't bother but erm as she's not trained to be a speaker, she's a voluntary worker. I mean we don't whether she sort of it doesn't say whether she volunteered to go and talk to the people in the school, but even so it's quite it takes quite a lot of doing to stand up in front of a group of people you don't know and talk about the work. What gifts is the young man using?. Determination to do erm Good yeah that's a smashing one that didn't come up on Sunday either determination yeah. What else? Anything else? What about hope? Mm. Yeah? Yeah. There's one thing that struck me right. What gifts are Maria and Peter doing ? Mummy Using? No, go away, I'm teaching, go away. ? No. Go on then yes, be back for seven o'clock. What gifts are Maria and Peter using? Helping Helping yeah, great, helping others. And supporting. Supporting him yeah, great. What gifts are their friends using? Helping again. Yeah. Understanding and Yeah. they understand that erm he needs somebody to Yeah, yeah. And they see the purpose for what Maria and Peter's doing aren't they and they're Mm. helping. Yeah. Smashing. Right and we'll leave the other sheet for now so's you can have a look at that yourself if you would at some stage and just erm go through it. And at this poi point on Sunday we did a break and refreshment but you can forget about that cos I'm gonna carry straight on . Okay, is that alright? Yeah. Right okay. Now erm all the gifts that you give at Confirmation the whole idea of Confirmation in well one of the main ideas of Confirmation is taking on board for yourself what your parents promised for you in baptism. Yeah? And erm the we are given or they h one of the reasons or the purposes behind Confirmation is to give us the strength to use the gifts which God's al has already given us. And it's like the story of the erm I think it was the servant parable of the servant with the talents. Do you know the story I mean the parable I mean? No. Well the servants three servants are given one talent and their master tells them to erm do with it what they could in a certain space of time and he would reward them. And one of the servants takes his one talent and he uses it and he works very hard with it and he buys erm raw goods and he makes things and he he a makes his one talent up into ten. And the second servant doesn't do quite as well,he erm but he manages to make five talents out of his one talent. And the third servant says Well no if I if I go out and buy something something might go wrong and I'll lose the talent, and so he hides it away in the drawer. So when the master comes back and says to then What have you done with your talents? one the first servant shouts, Here, here are ten for your one, Here are five for your one, and he's very cross with the third servant because he said, What's the purpose of giving me giving you this money if all you're going to do is hide it in the drawer? And it's the same idea in Confirmation that the gifts which you are given are not given just for yourself, they're given to be used, and there's no point in keeping them to yourself, you know. They are to be used and shared with other people, and that's how one of the ways in which we live a Christian life. We might do it amongst our family, we can do it er by you know helping within the family, you can do it by helping in the community, all sorts of different ways. You might be called to do it some other way as you get older. That's up to depends on what happens really. Right Confirmation is a call from God. Right? You understand that idea. We call that a vocation. That word is called a vocation. I'm sure you've heard or have you heard about priests when say a priest has a vocation, a call from God? When they renew their erm mm. Erm no. Er what what's it what's it called when they renew their erm their promise to God being a priest? Well that's just no that's I think that's just a renewal of vows. Mm. But a vocation is a call from God. Erm that's what the word means the word means a call from God. And erm the work that you're asked to do the prop the word for it I mean we use wh wh really what I'm t teaching you now is the vocabulary that is used and which will actually be used during the service. The call from God is a vocation and the the work that you're asked to do is your mission. Erm in actual fact I don't w I work in a non-catholic school. And one of the things that erm they're talking about at the moment is making their mission statement. And that's the equivalent of our R E syllabus in a catholic school . But er it's a mission statement, it's the mission is the work that you're asked to do. And there's a bit of fun for you. So if we just go through these and then you can find them in the word search if you like. A call from God is a? Vocation. Vocation. God's call is a call to? Mission, yeah. mission? mission . It doesn't make sense that does it. Yeah it's called to a miss er to mission. That's the wor that's wor that's what the word is. The work we're asked to do. Right so the word is mission for there. Right. receive God's call Come on go through these first and then we'll do them af I'll let you do the word search. We call it the sacrament Bap of Baptism. Yeah. Yeah. ? Yeah. And Holy and Spirit are two separate words in the word search. . How many? Seven. Right. Only it's not written like that in there Yeah. it's written in You can do the word search Yeah I don't do you want to do the word search now? No I'll do it Okay right. Fine. Erm now Kay actually had a big er you know the stand she usually does Mm. and erm I meant to er well she said she'd bring it back to me and then I said Well no don't bother I'll sort something out myself and then I forgot all about it. So what I'll I'll explain to you what was on there. There were pictures of Bosnia, Ireland erm there was a picture of a little girl crying with er a friend stood next to her. There was a picture of some people being crushed in a lorry in Bosnia. And there was a picture who had fallen off one of the lorries in Bosnia erm one of the refugee lorries and was running along trying to catch up with her parents. Erm there was a picture of a starving person in Ethiopia and on top of all those there were superimposed the opposite words love, joy, peace, forgiveness, happiness. have a look at the prayer of Saint Francis now do you know the prayer of Saint Francis?pob probably do. You might not think you do but you do. Right. Can you uh just read it through. I'll read it aloud because it does make it I think it makes it stick in your mind more. Lord make me an instrument of your peace. Where there is hatred let me sow love. Where there is injury let me sow pardon. Where there is doubt let me sow faith. Where there is despair let me give hope. Where there is darkness let me give light and where there is sadness let me give joy. And obviously each word there each negative word was counteracted by a positive the opposite right. So can you choose one of those lines now, think about it for a minute and then have a look on at this. Erm and see if you can actually fill in the the ideas which are on there. Or the answer the questions which are on there . Don't worry about it. presentation yeah but we're not doing that. Sorry I've your stopped your train of thought the haven't I. Right. Fair enough, right. Which line did you look at? Erm Where there's despair let me give hope . Right and the negative word is? Despair. Yeah. You couldn't think of anything ? Fair enough. That's nice actually. I mean it is nice that you don't know anybody who you feel might be despairing. Yeah? Mm. So you never felt I mean presumably you never felt that yourself and therefore and also perhaps if you've never come across Fair enough. Right what about in our country? The people sleeping rough in the streets. Yeah. Good one. And in the world going abroad ? Erm Ethiopia starving. Yeah. Right. Positive word is? Hope. Yep. And how can you bring this positive word into the examples you gave as answers to question three? How could you bring hope in? Hoping that they'll have a home . Mm. And giving aid to the people in Ethiopia. Yeah. True. So how? How would which one? Both of them. By helping . How? How can you actually how could you help people who are homeless, you? could speak to them and say erm give them some encouragement to go and have a look and see if there's any hostels or something. Mm. Giving information, yeah, that's a good one. I mean you yourself if you found out if you found some homeless people you could possibly find out where they could go. Mm. So Erm I could erm ask the school to collect some money for them. Mm. That could be for both really Yeah. couldn't it going doing taking an active part in charity work within the school or within the community. Yeah great that's smashing. Right. Now this last one here is called Living the Prayer and it's like the other quite a few of the others, erm but it's for you, it's not for not for us it's not to be shared. But it is just to try and ask you to think ways in which you could help in this particular way in whichever way there is. So Today I brought and there's an example here Today I brought joy where there was sadness by cheering up a friend who was fed up. Very simple thing to do and something you possibly would do without even thinking about it. And now we're asking you to focus in on ways in which you could live the prayer of Saint Francis. Right? For a week. Now if y I mean if you do it you do it and that's it's up to you, but because nobody else will look at it. But to be honest it is a good way of focusing in on what you what we've been talking about tonight and if you can I think it would be worthwhile doing as part of your preparation to help you to think. Cos it i it shouldn't just be your preparation should not just be a one-off hour hour and a half what have you on the Sundays when you come along. Because if you if you if that's all it is then you're just going through the motions, you're not actually going ahead and receiving the Sacrament of Confirmation. I don't feel that it is with any of you. But erm you know that's up to you er you're the only person who knows that. Right, can we actually have a look now the last bit is sort of more the nitty gritty before we go on to this . Next Sunday is the at the ten thirty mass is the Celebration of Election. Right. Between now and Sunday it's down to you to decide that you definitely want to go ahead and be confirmed. At the Celebration of Enrolment you said Right yes, well I'm prepared to take part in the preparation programme. Now this next Sunday you're preparing and saying Yes I definitely want to go ahead and be confirmed. And it it should be your decision. Erm I know it's easier said than done sometimes but er it has to be your decision because even if you went ahead and were confirmed, we were tal talking about the idea of sometimes parents bring pressure on them on you to go ahead and do it and be confirmed, erm when perhaps you're not don't feel ready for it and it takes a lot of courage to stand up and say No I'm not ready. But if you feel ready, fine, if you don't feel ready, then even if you go ahead it won't be valid. It won't be worth anything because it won't have meant anything to you. Unless it means something to you it's not really much point. Erm that's the negative side. The positive side is obviously if you go ahead with the Celebration of Election, smashing. What happens in the Celebration is of Election is that the erm it happens at the end of mass I think or round the end of mass. I think it's after Communion. The priest asks the catechists or one of the catechists to represent the four of us erm to decide whether we feel you're ready for Confirmation, which we all have no hesitation in saying yes to with all this particular group. Erm then he asks the candidates er Do you sincerely want to receive the Sacrament of Confirmation? and you stand when he calls out your name, hell call out you names, yeah? Kay did this bit on Sunday and I'm not too sure about it, yeah. The catechist will read out in the same way as we did for the Celebration of Enrolment, erm whichever catechist is doing will say I present to you and call out a name, and you stand up in your seat with your parents. Now are you are you erm on the altar on Sunday? No I was going to stay down. Right. Well you just stand up in your row by your parents and you don't go don't come out onto the front or anything, just stand up when your name's called, and then he addresses you and says,Do you sincerely want to receive the Sacrament of Confirmation?and you say,I do. Do you understand that through this sacrament God is calling you to become witnesses to Christ? I do. Difficult aren't they. Do you want to follow Lord Jesus by living lives of loving service to God and to all God's people?and you say,I do. And the he says,Let us bless the Lord. and you answer,Thanks be to God. Then he asks the community, because although they might not all have seemed to have been involved there's been a lot of people praying for you and Mm. you are part of the community. And then he will address you again. But knowing Father er Chris and then apart from the We everybody says the answers there it's all thanks be to God and amen amen amen amen, I think we're actually gonna have some copies, I don't know,ready for you. So that's next Sunday. Erm you've got your letter about the following Sunday didn't you ? Yeah. Right. Any queries questions or what have you about that? Erm do you kn how much erm contribut erm Well that's up to you and your parents . Mm mm. That's really up to your parents. Erm If it's if you want some kind of a guideline I think last year I can't remember but I think we I think last year we actually had to ask because the parish couldn't support it totally. Erm this year the parish has said they'll pay for it and any contributions will be gratefully received and I think it was three pound last year. But I can't remember. Mm. So that just gives you some idea and it's up to your parents if they want to. But don't feel pressured to contribute you know cos it's something Right er don't think there's anything else. You've got the letter, you've got all that. Right so next Sunday is the ten thirty mass for everybody. Yeah. Okay? Okay. Right can we just we'll finish off with a prayer. Do you want to say the prayer of Saint Francis? Okay. When we get round to it. I'll tell you when. The two companies concerned are trying to record the spoken word. We don't want you on tape. So the thing, the thing to do is to sort of dot around in the conversation things like pre antidisestablishmentarianism. And hopefully This will get modern usage of words. Of, one of the words that she was talking about, people have started using wicked for a normal phrase. I mean, it doesn't mean what it says in the dictionary any more. That's a really wicked thing to say, he went, no it's not it's bad, it's not wicked. He thinks of wicked as being good, he doesn't, cause Mandy says wicked. Yeah. Well that's the idea anyway. He goes round saying wicked, it's his favourite word. Are you going to go to sleep, eh? Please That doesn't mean much, does it? She's just looking over there to see which one she wants to throw up on. Who do you want to go and gurgle at? Eh? Oh not Uncle Brian, no no no. No? Have you had enough grub for a little while? There you are, go and see somebody. she's got a ginormous one. She had it . Well don't to me I've only just you Come on, give Auntie Pauline a nice smile. Go on, you do lovely smiles. If she smiles it will be at your hairline. Pardon? She won't be able to see that far, will she? She might be able to see a blurred shape. she's just looked this way now. She kept looking over there. Don't know what she was looking at. What were you looking at? Well she definitely looks at her mobile. Yeah? I know it drives you mad, the music but er I wouldn't mind if those blasted slightly longer life in terms of the music they played. But unfortunately, you know, it's or whatever. But it's over again. Well, yes. Well I mean that's what's nice for them, isn't it? Yeah. You see they've got a short concentration. Do you think music in the background sort of, do all the lyrics as well . Oh of course Oh well done. the last half hour. a little bit wasn't it? She's had a lot of that today. Have you? Well don't put it on too loud, will you? why babies have a suck there. You say they're having milk, he went, what do you mean? Milk? What do you mean milk comes out there? So I said well it's only when you've just had a baby like, you know, like cows. Love him. O K. You will speak to me. Eh? You will speak to, I'm very relaxed. I wouldn't like to go for a week in silence. You know, I can't stay for a week in silence. I didn't think you could. Oh! Where'd you come from? Oh dear, I thought you were a , there, oh there. What's like? He doesn't know his middle name, does he?her name. It's nearly ready. .Five minutes, oh we're late aren't we? Never mind. I spoke to today. Oh, right. How is he? Well, that's the name of the company isn't it? He's busy. Oh, that's what he wants to be isn't it? Bad news. It's bad news being busy? Why? He, who? His wife's laid up in bed Why, what's wrong? with back pain. She's not allowed to move Oh dear. at all. Well she works with him, doesn't she? accounts department. He's got to go and deal with the children, take them to and from work, then run a business. Then he's got to go home at lunchtime and give her some food. Aha. Now that kind of busy is not the right sort of busy is it? Not pleasant. Are you hungry Charlotte? Are you? No. No? You don't want anything to eat? Oh right. I'll eat your dinner. We'll eat your dinner for you. I'll go and eat your dinner. She's going to go and eat your dinner. You have . What have you been doing? Have you been buying naughty things again Joelle? Naughty girl. eaten my dinner? I haven't eaten your dinner, it's not ready yet. .Nearly ready. Oh, you're doing it in English are you? I hate this in English. This, this video. Oh it's the voices I can't stand. Bonk. Did it go bonk? Listen, go away She doesn't say go away very much now. Go away. Does she? Well she's just heard it, that's why, but she doesn't she doesn't say it very much does she? No? I've only heard it once or twice in the last few When I change her nappy? Well, that's normal. She doesn't want you to change her nappy does she? Water please. Right, let's go and see if these chicken things are ready. Right, right, would you like to sort of start getting yourselves into the other room. Now the baby's waking up, dinner's ready. Is baby waking up? She keeps kicking her legs and going, ah, ah. Is the ready ? No, it's not. I said try and start thinking about getting in there because How soon? About two minutes. Shall we start ? After dinner, yeah. Yeah. Brian and Pauline probably won't arrive till it's virtually over. Probably not. Do you think Charlotte will eat a turkey steak with garlic and herbs? What? I said do you think Charlotte will eat a turkey steak with garlic and herbs? We'll see, won't we. You hungry? Miss? What's happening,water please, water, water. Ah, that's that done. Oh, it smells good. They do don't they? I thought we'd try them for a change. They look really nice. Like chicken Kiev without a load of sloppy butter. Bit smaller than normal ones. There's a lot of banging and crashing on this tape. What else do I need? A plate for Charlotte. Brian said, we'll make it tomorrow night, eight to eight thirty. So, cos he had an early, erm, what do you call it, early estimate. Oh Charlotte, look what . Don't be naughty. Can you sort erm, madame out? Off you go Jess, go and be fed. Is that nice? Is that a nice cake? Mm. Mm. Pardon? Oh you're colouring Postman Pat. You've got a black crayon again. It's Charlotte choosing. Pardon? It's Charlotte choosing. Chose what? The cake! Oh, right. Did you know what you were choosing? Did you walk around Tesco's? Did you walk, or did you sit in your pushchair? Tell the truth. Did you walk, or did you walk in your pushchair? Sit in the pushchair. You went in a car didn't you? Have you told Daddy what you did? Erm? Go on, you tell Daddy what you did in front of erm We went, we went to Tesco Mhm and after Tesco, just next to the door there's some little car Oh yeah. for you to go Yeah, one of these things you sit in, put twenty P in or whatever it is, and have a ride for two minutes. So she said, mm. So I said, you can go in there when we are, when we done the shopping. So I said, if you are a good girl you can choose a cake. So went to Tesco, and we walk around, the cake, erm, cake thing Aisle? and er, I said Oh Charlotte, don't talk with your mouth full. We went to Tesco to buy some milk. To buy some milk? Because Sainsbury didn't have any yesterday. Did they have any today? I don't know, I didn't go today . What did I do today? I made beans, when I'd finished sorting out this one I . Charlotte don't play with that lovey. That's a good girl. Then I went to the bank. Then I went to Tesco. That take me nearly all the er All morning. And erm Then this afternoon we went to Croydon. Exciting. I went to Tesco. You went to Tesco? We are very tired. We are. Absolutely. Who's we? Me. We. All of us? You're not tired. Why not? You shouldn't be tired. I'm happy. Oh I'm so glad you're happy. She's a poor old lady at the moment. Is she? Poor old lady. Charlotte please don't talk with your mouth full, there's a good girl. Keep your mouth closed when you've got something in it or we'll take something away. It's not, it's not very nice darling, to do that. It's not good manners. We want to bring up a nice girl, not a little pig. Alright? pig. No, nice girl, not a little pig. pig. Yes, nice girl. Are you a nice girl? What? Not the way you stuff your cake in your mouth like that. Dear oh dear. I wouldn't bounce at the same time Don't bounce when you're eating please. And shut your mouth. Good girl. trampoline now. You're going on the trampoline. Well finish your mouthful first, please. Or Ah that wasn't her fault. Have you finished? Have you finished eating? No. No? No calls for you. Swansea. Right hand side. Oh right. I couldn't work out what you were talking about. It only takes one at a time. No it's not now. It's bath time really. Be bath time in about fifteen minutes. I thought you'd finished your cake, haven't you finished? Catch it, one two three catch it, one two three. I said catch it, you didn't catch it,. What? It's Top Of The Pops. Top Of The Pops, oh I haven't watched Top of the Pops. will sit there cringing, said I can't believe they put this rubbish on terrible. Who was on it? Don't know who was on it actually. Well she doesn't like M C Hammer, he was on, and then there was one week with Germans on it and it was, erm, it's a German group that used to be popular and haven't done a song for ages. It wasn't the Robots was it? Yeah, the Robots. I mean, it was just the words they were using, I mean oh It makes you cringe, oh and then that er girl oh she's done quite a few things recently. She sings much better than she talks. back to my diet today. Thank you very much, yes I will actually. No, it's not my day to diet, been, been naughty today. Oh dear. Pop him on the shoulder. . So did you enjoy Paul Simon? Yeah. She was about to but she found a sticker on book She comes out well on tape doesn't she? Who Charlotte? Mm. I didn't realise how clear her speech was until I heard it on the tape. It's really quite good actually. Not bad. Oh we'll do this one again. drop off Cos it's lights and things isn't it? She was looking at er lights in Sainsbury's the other day. It looked like that, didn't it? Carol was swaying at her. You missed that. I just swayed at her, and she It's Conway Twitty isn't it? Is it? Oh no. How far back does this go, I suppose early fifties? Er nineteen fifty six. I remember Conway Twitty. Oh yes. You were in your cradle. Elvis, didn't he? I don't think he ever recorded it, I think he just used to sing it at his, er sort of cabaret. Well so many of these songs have been done by so many people that you would be forgiven for thinking that, that. Because there's one there, one on one of these that er either Paul Simon or Art Garfunkel or someone, can't remember which one, probably Art Garfunkel as Paul Simon does all his own doesn't he? Well he has done other people's. Well there's one on there, I can't remember Like for instance the, er, what do they call those two? Oh the two brothers. In the Everley Brothers? The Everley Brothers, that's it. You know, Wake up Little Suzie? Oh yeah. Well Simon and Garfunkel did that Wicked far out. it's a groovy record this. Shut up. Can't remember which one it is but I'll recognise it when I hear it. He's doing very well, isn't he. He is. Have to employ him full time. He's always quite good. I just can't believe how daft he is. I suppose you like that film. Yes. Forget it. You're not having cake. Does she like cake? Well she's looking at it. So how's things down at the ? Not too bad. Quite good actually. Yeah? Keeping him busy out on estimates and Yeah he's out all this week. Well, my dad won't pass them on to Terry. Me dad said he's had enough Well, we were debating whether to give it to you or not. But I thought, well if Terry notices he might . Well in fact two really big estimates Who, Terry? Yeah. And one wanted re-estimating, the other one wanted a few more prices cos everything like marble tops which are going to cost a fortune to get done. We give them a provisional kind of price and not really gone into it in detail. So she had a list of about five things she wanted sorted out and she said so far we were the cheapest. But she's got about six different firms on the computer and was comparing notes. So I worked out and the other two were really fitting and electrics and it was all down to Terry to sort those out. And they're both, about two to three thousand pounds worth of sanitary ware or more but two to three thousand pounds worth of work. Well you can't afford to lose them, can you? No. So what's going to happen then? God knows. He said, I asked, asked, well I left a message on Saturday for him to sort them out didn't I? He already knew about that. And then I asked my father on Tuesday to remind him and he said, he'd already said he'd fetch them in on Tuesday. And he, my father reminded him last night and he said yeah he would have them by tomorrow morning. But he's , he just really has to get in touch with one of them and tell them the prices. So I don't know. Well, I mean he'd done, he's done this first estimate, these are all just polishing touches cos people are obviously interested in, you know they're well keen on our prices. they can't pursue it till we come back to them. They're not pursuing it until we put these things out. My father just turned round I've had enough of it if Terry's not going to do the estimate he passes them on to Brian. I said yeah then I get into trouble with them for not passing estimates to Terry and then there's an argument. If he, if he says anything to me I'll just have to tell him. But he's not doing the estimates he's been given and he can't afford to throw money away. It's cos he's working for him at the moment money. He always gets like that and then he forgets after like a month or two when he hasn't worked for him. He forgets how annoying he can be and you know he swings the other way. I mean Brian's pulled in a lot of work. lot of people kind of saying come back again on Thursday So he's, he's . If we got Terry to do that we'd be well away. They, they would love him I mean one of them it was annoying really cos Terry's just not pulling his weight. I don't understand it, if I live to be a hundred I won't understand it. And also, it's cos that, you know after we had that row about Terry, after Bank Holiday expecting not to have to do a day in the shop, and er he's already owing Brian a day? Guess who's doing the extra day?got my dad to cover a day. And then he takes a day off Bank Holidays. and he can't do it because my dad . But then tomorrow he's actually doing his own work. So he could easily have . And on Monday So who's covering tomorrow? Well my brother's covered practically all week and Brian's doing tomorrow. Terry phoned up asking what, Tuesday morning about quarter past eight said who was covering. And he said well my father is doing today I can't do today I'll do it Friday and I shouted down the stairs but he owes you a day you shouldn't be going in. I mean he hasn't been in the shop once this week. Somebody's got to tell him to So do Dave and Terry in the shop . They have the records. And it hasn't been sorted yet? Oh no. He's got the gall to phone up on Tuesday and say Eileen can't do a day, we're going to be short of Eileen. So the answer is to just phone them. I can't do it. I'm not doing it. What's the point of carrying on like that? Well he's going to carry on like that isn't he? Not unless someone puts their foot down. And if your father is currently taking your side of things worth sounding him out as to how far he'll take Ah whilst he's in the mood? Yeah. He's not being that much You sure? Mmm. He's probably only in the mood cos he's probably upsetting them on his night out cos they go out in the evenings. On a Wednesday evening, don't they. Cos Terry I mean , wouldn't he rather have Terry as a sort of permanent worker anyway? It's not being fair do any work. Oh what, your dad? Pauline's dad er too expensive I think. Terry uses the shop to get extra money every so often, uses my dad ticking over running when he Why . He does get the offer, I mean two months and she phoned up and I kind of made out it got lost in the post. I erm got, check you've got two days, you've got give me the estimate, it's got to be on because she's expecting it to be done straight away on the computer and sent. And he actually got that one done. Do you know it was only five lines. I mean I could have made it up it was that easy. So I sent that off. She was in first thing, I mean I sent it off that evening she was in first thing the next morning yes that's fine . So he's got that job and another one . She's trying isn't she? I don't understand why it surprises you, that's what gets me. I mean It's normal behaviour . Charlotte's done it too. Can you pass me that er, sheet? This? Is that your reading? That's not your regulations you have to read is it? Oh no, that's a I was going to say that doesn't seem very thick No, that's to do with this tape. Oh I tell you what is quite funny these, the act. Mmm. Oh. hereby enacted her gracious majesty, you know, etcetera etcetera. What was it, the Lords temporal and spiritual, that's what they call themselves. Now that is, that's Yes. Yeah I realise and I hope I don't come into contact with too many acts of parliament. Oh, we had someone round to see the house yesterday. Oh yeah? They came twenty minutes early, there's Brian up in the shower, there's me stuffing things in the cupboard under the stairs. That's an old trick. I said to Danny, don't open the door. Don't open the door! So as I'm still trying to stuff things away, she opened the door and everything fell out. look round the front room, then they looked round the, the garden. While they were looking round the garden I you've got to get out the shower quick. I don't know. They'd come down from, they'd come down from,erm, somewhere or other. They're just doing a kind of tour of loads and loads of houses cos they keep moving with his job. Oh, right. She quite, I think she liked the area, she was saying about the schools and that. Mind you, she likes erm and they're all separate, all the best ones round here are . She said don't they have any details? So I said well, no it's not now is it, it's erm, oh it's that school that the . Something and School of Arts now it's called well technical School of Arts round here? No it's another, well technical, performing arts here. performing arts and that's the technical It's a monstrosity. Oh you rotten old pig, you've been sick. Oh she hasn't? Oh. Yeah, it's alright. is it washable? Yeah, I think so. You'll soon find out. Yes. Do you feel better now? Obviously. I think she thinks she's got some milk now. I thought you said, one, you had to have somebody involved who is?. No no no one person that's not right. Oh, right . There is no, statutory obligation for the person organizing it Oh, I know. Well not the organizer surely oh I know I would have thought you'd have to,shoot it I'm sure that the social services require psychiatric or Mm, I would of thought so obviously medical what you're doing. Mhm but they're to be qualified people involved. But I would have expected that the whole thing would have to be operated by, somebody who was qualified. I don't know, because like, you know like the doctors I think it sort of depends how big that you want to get involved in. If you're just somebody who's on the outside providing services, to keep the smooth running of it then you don't really have to know anything about it. Mm. But if you're actually involved in it, and you want to be involved in the people, then I think you have to know something about it. Well the other evening they were showing something on T V, one of these doctors', doctors' practices that are opting out or whatever. And they got a stockbroker, someone who used to be a stockbroker, actually managing the whole practice. Yeah. I mean he's obviously not qualified as a doctor. Mhm. So I mean I suppose they'll look at it in the same kind of way, somebody who's got managerial, management qualities rather than I suppose people who are interested in the other side of it, the medical side of it, probably, really be geared up to organizing the money side of it wouldn't they, usually one or the other. So have you done any more calculations on it? There's nothing really more I mean the whole thing is a budget guesstimate. I've no idea yet, really what, I mean, you know, for instance I don't know how much ratio staff to patients they need, therefore you can't really, you know, follow that up because you've no idea what the costs themselves could be. Well you don't know, have you, have you found the statutory requirement for space yet? Per person. I think the thing is going to come unstuck in the, I think the biggest thing is, I was thinking, is the fact that you've got to get I wouldn't get a commitment from Social Services until they see a property actually ready for occupation. Now I'm not gonna be prepared to go through the whole business and then find them say oh sorry you're wrong. Property is the biggest bugbear. Yeah. Because I don't think If you're actually sitting on I don't think the banks are gonna want to invest. To be perfectly frank. You see the only way we can get equity out and put money in ourselves is by selling this place. Yes. Therefore if we don't actually want to live in the same place as the residents, which I certainly wouldn't want to do, right. We'd have to buy two adjoining. Yeah. So that either means providing it, or something further down the scale . I mean that's, huge. That to be honest is, is somebody who's like, been doing this for ten years and has already got themselves like half a million pounds of worth of equity. You know it's a huge property. But you would need a large property to do what you want? I don't think so. It would be eleven bedrooms and five receptions . The point is, that you've got to count, if , you've got to count one bedroom Yes, I've got you count one bedroom for all the . You may even have to count two. You certainly got to count one. So two bedrooms out of twelve are no longer available. Sorry? Say that again in English. They're coming to collect the stuff next Thursday. But I don't have to do it every day all day. It's twenty tapes. So that's twenty times ninety minutes. talking about his estimates. Very exciting stuff and I've been telling her not to speak so loudly. Have you had enough now? and then I'm talking about right? It's gonna cost five and a half thousand mortgage. At this point would cost about just, just about half. Six bedrooms would pro , six bedrooms would probably cost you two to buy. five and six bedroom houses and you won't get anything under two hundred thousand pounds. How much do you wanna to bet on that? Mm? Where? I've been waiting for on one. Where? You've got to spend as much or twice as much there as you would there as you would anywhere else. Those other properties, there isn't half the amount of work need doing there as . needs a lot of work. If we moved in then we'd have to spend fifty thousand pound to get it up to scratch. That's just to live in. Alright, O K, let's say two hundred grand, O K? It's still fifty per cent less than one of those properties at Harrow Road, right? Fifty per cent less on the mortgage means erm about three and a half thousand . It's effectively eighteen thousand per annum saved, right? The cost of and gain four bedrooms the cheaper it should become. Oh yes it is, I don't doubt it but the problem is right? And you've got to be realistic. Because no bank is going to give you the money against the costs of the value of the property right? They're gonna give you the against equity equity of some sort. But the only way you can get the equity, right? The only way we could get the equity. We could do it. The only thing I could do I mean at the same time I'm saying O K I'll go in to do it this way, would be to actually say, sod this for a lark, instead of doing erm totally private thing, gonna set up a private limited company to issue cheques. I really couldn't I would never get the price I'd want for the alphabet. Shall we go for a stroll? No . Fetch the No, no, no, no, no. What do you mean, no? You've got to take the with you. Why? Why are you . Why are you going for a walk? To go and see What have you bought? Oh you're not starting again, are you? Yeah, you're not to smoke any more. I haven't got any. You are not to smoke You're looking so guilty. The pair of them. Really. Excuse me, excuse me ladies. Since when do you ask Brian if he wants to go for a walk? This is nothing to do Empty your pockets. Come on. This is going down on the table. Come on, you're not going to have them in there, are you? I'm not daft. Alright? I wasn't born yesterday. You might forget them one day and they'll get washed. That is not for me to contribute to. I haven't said anything about it. Amy . Let go of my neck. She's a major contributor to these tapes, aren't you? Shall we take her for a walk? You really must think we're daft. He's sleeping down here tonight. It's bad enough being woken up by the baby without going back to bed and then being woken up by . I've been going to bed at half past one and I was doing the T M A for two nights, then I've been doing his V A T for two nights so I've got to bed really really late and I just and, the thing is, the T M A were all on about my then I just start to relax I had to resort to herbal knockout drops. Oh that's very naughty. Right. Definitely smoking . Well, we were sitting there doing the V A T and I thought, I don't know that's just not but How much is it when you want to go cinema? Oh,about two seventy five I think but I'm not sure Is it as little as that? it might be more but . Well I'd either do it that way or pay, erm, credit cards. I don't really take any notice. Terrible Naughty, isn't it? I don't think it's terrible White Fang. Oh what on earth's that? It's the latest Disney extravaganza, and a wolf cub in it, oh Kirsty loves . Oh isn't it? No, it says here, the story of a young wolf. Oh, she'll probably like that tomorrow we'll go somewhere and spend my money. Yes I suppose by the time she's here look different. Gonna have your hair done?a perm. She hasn't got enough to have a perm, has she now? I think she's gonna grow it out. She's gonna, perm the top so she can grow it out. I told you, didn't I say, as soon as she gets it cut she'll be growing it out. Where are you going to get it done? Er in they normally cut it well. Bit expensive though. Twenty one pounds forty five. Just to have it cut and blow dried? Regardless of whether it's a restyle or trim. Bit expensive. That is. Mind you, my hair was a lot better when I was having it done . I must admit though it looked lovely, I'll say that. I only had a trim, but the blow dry made it sort of Do you remember when I got that, my hair cut really short? They did that, and that was, that was really nice. When I look back at the photographs I think And even when it was long I had, there was one hairdresser there called Paul, whom I'd go and see regularly . I'd go and see him regularly because he did it really well, once he left Well I had one like that, you know when we used to go to that gym up in Chelsea? Mind you my regular's back and she charges three pounds. six weeks. I haven't been since, what isn't it? Trouble is now, cos I know a hairdresser the shop, if I go somewhere else, it looks a bit you know and yet I'm not very satisfied with the way he cuts it, he's done it cheap. Mind you, he did Mandy's at Mandy's, I thought that was quite nice. Have you got a hiccup? Caught it off Amy. She's gone to sleep now? They are aren't they? But he phoned up to order it and said oh my wife likes these soppy things, he bought it, I didn't. It had nothing to do with me. Then he wants me to tape it so he can have it in the car cos it's on C D. Hold your breath. drink some water, concentrate Well, if you want to get rid of hiccups, drink Hold your breath and push seems to work on me. stand on your head. Run round the block or something. Why can I, er I can't have hiccup? Because you don't like them. You keep complaining every time you get hiccups, you say oh I don't like them. I'm trying to help get rid of them, sorry. Supposed to work isn't it? Once she's gone, once she's gone she's gone. Oh dear, oh we've come to the end. Oy, psst, you are a little fidget. Where is Adam and Brian? Mm? Where is Adam and Brian? They're not having a cigar, they're walking round the block. They're not having a cigar. So they keep telling me. They've gone out for a walk to have a cigar but as far we're concerned they're not having a cigar. They think we're stupid and we don't realize Well, I'm not supposed to tell you but he was smoking on the station when we just caught sight of him. Well I'm sure he was. I said how am I not supposed to say anything, I said I don't approve why should I keep this quiet? Cos it's not good for you. It's not on. Brian is, because we've been out a couple of times and he does, I mean if we go out he'll smoke then and then he just normally stops. Yes, he had one to celebrate, but he didn't just buy one he bought a box. So of course he had to keep smoking them until he'd finished Until they'd gone, yes. And he told me, well quite soon quite soon after she came along. I think he actually went for a walk with Brian. Oh, I assume he brought No, no, this was the last one. I said, you had the last one two days ago. So the last one of packet number I don't know what. Well Brian can stop terrible now, he's really snoring, god . I've got to the point now, I kick him and tell him to turn over, he turns it over and it's just as bad as before. Yeah, yeah. I don't want to be married. No, don't bother Well at least have separate rooms. I wouldn't mind, but it's normally me that goes and sleeps on the settee and I don't see why I should. Well, no the other day he said if I'm really that bad you just tell me and I'll go down and sleep on the sofa. And I went berserk about two nights later and said for god's sake you're driving me bonkers, go away and sleep on the sofa. He's turned over and started snoring. Well he can be lying there sometimes and I'll say, will you roll over please. Mm. Go on then. Mm. Will you please roll over! Or some of the time I've been sitting there in the bed feeding the baby, you know Mm. and go shut up! Shut up! It's awful. Well, I've found now I do a combination of what's that stuff, erm,orbathol that seems to help a bit. I don't think it helps him, it helps me calm down and go to sleep. Knock out drops. put that all over, I keep forgetting to take those herbal tablets, they seem to help with colds or whatever but I haven't got those upstairs at the moment which doesn't help. And then last night I just took my stuff and knocked myself out instead. I don't see why I should have to knock myself out have to be a man unfortunately. Trouble is I go into such a deep sleep I can't wake up in the morning if I do, you know, take the herbal stuff, I , I'm flat out in the morning, can't wake up. I think I got up about half past eight this morning. Goodness me. I had to go to work about nine. Oh what are you doing? Oh shut up. Go away. And he gets hiccups. He eats too much too quickly. He gets really violent hiccups though, you know, really th , they sound very, very painful. My baby's ones do. Mm. You know when it, you can just hear everything going ckkk ooh. Is she awake? No. I'll have to put you down some time. I felt so sorry for Christine. Do you know she's now, she was quite cuddly, she was fat in the pregnancy when I saw her last time. And in the space of three weeks I think the baby's used up all her fat because she's now just really, really pregnant. But, not so much her face, but all the top part of her looks slim, almost, you know I mean, she's got no fat left there, on her arms it's all gone. Just a bit left on her legs so the baby must have used up all if the baby carries on like this she'll be anaemic I think. When's she due? Did you say? Eleventh, so she's got another, almost two, well two weeks, ten days. Mm. She said she can't sit down, can't stand up. I was just sitting there for about five minutes then she got up, then she, ooh, sat down, then she got up. I don't think it can be too long. Now what about that then? I can't believe how quickly the time's gone. Mm. Do you want to sit down ? broke today. Ooh broke? I mean I was, one minute I was walking round, I hadn't touched anything another minute it was catching my finger. I looked down to see what was kind of stinging my finger and the ring had snapped and was pinching where it caught my finger. I can't get mine off. Well I can't wear a wedding ring now, it, just cos it's so wide, it's a really wide one. And if I wear where I had the eternity ring on and the engagement ring and the wedding ring it just felt like arthritis, it used to get really painful. So I said oh blow this that's coming off. I suppose I'll have to get another wedding ring. It's fashionable to have a kind of reason I don't think so. So I'm feeling less and less married the more rings I keep breaking. I can't get my wedding ring off. No. Well, my fingers get swelling as well, so I thought it wouldn't do any harm. Well I have finished Well they're all up there. O K. Well I could not ask you before. Well, yeah, if you look, ooh, I can't think where. I think there's a book-rack up there and I think some of them, the patterns are out of the magazine and they're just, in a rack, I think. If you go up there just leave them as they are don't leave them all over the place. put them back. Are you making something? Depends how much time I've got. Yeah. What are you going to make? Some Yeah? What the ski , lycra type one? Little? Lycra. Oh that one, no. fabric . Do you want the fitted or loose? You want like, like that, floaty? Like, like these, or, more like jogging pants? No, like these. Well if you want them to stay pretty as opposed to going baggy then you'll need to have a bit of lycra in the fabric. Keeps the shape better. Mandy loves her top. Oh, the body? The body? Yeah, she was wearing it flat out when she was So you didn't get a look in then? Oh no, I was wrestling it off to wash it in the end. She kind of wore it with everything she could think of I think that would go. Mind you, I don't think it's come out of the washing at the moment, I think it's getting water . I haven't seen it recently. Quite versatile really. Yeah, yes she wore it with a lot of you know trousers and skirts and The big thing at the moment is a new polo neck that we got from . It's actually ever such a good one. An X Together one, you know Together the label ? So Yeah. But you also buy it in, er, Alders, they've got them. . So it's normally quite expensive and it's, it's lovely material and it comes down to about here. We got it for four pound fifty. Ever so cheap. That's Oh, right, yes I've seen it, I've seen it. Well ever so often what they do they get the ex catalogue stuff. You know you can get some quite good buys like end of the season. Who are they? You get the end of season and it's if you look at the labels and go for the decent labels then you don't get sort of, quite reasonable quality. Mm. I got quite a few things in there. I'll probably have a stroll round there just to get a tracksuit for, when Michael was childrens' tracksuit. I used to, I bought loads and loads in there. Joelle? Could you just take the carrycot up and put it on the floor? Just so that it's upstairs, for me. On the floor?bedroom floor? Well I haven't cleared the cot out, so O K. it's funny cos I just I thought ooh, I'll buy it for her cos you know she doesn't four pound fifty I didn't mind. . But it actually really suits her, it's a kind of sl almost maroony red, burgundy type red, not quite and er it's a really good colour. Christine got a load of her pregnancy stuff there. Cos she said I'm not paying a fortune for stuff that I won't wear afterwards. So she bought Is there maternity clothes then? Well, if you look, yeah. Well she got a kind of raincoat, that, I don't think it's supposed to be maternity I think it's just supposed to be Oh yes, cos that was the fashion wasn't it? Yeah, yeah. So she's, she's got one there. I think she paid eight pound for it, and it, it looks raincoat . And it still fits, it still fits over the hump. But she's huge. I really got away with it, you know. I, didn't have a coat right the way through. Mm. when it rains, that's all. Really lucky. she hasn't got a car, or anything. She's Oh, dear. So she has to walk round well, Chris sold his car didn't he cos they want to save up and get a house. Even through the snow I survived. Very lucky. Cos I refused to go out and buy a coat. I used to wear one I had a jumper that my mum knitted that went wrong and ended up twice the size it should have been. But that came in useful. Yeah. Well, when Mandy was when I was pregnant with Mandy I used to wear this old, you know those rabbit skin coats coney coat what they're called? Fur coat thing. Mm. Well it was a kind of fur coat but it was rabbit I think, it was. I got one, ooh, well it was really fashionable then so it was quite beautiful sixteen years ago. I'd probably know what you mean if I saw it. It's just a little jacket kind of thing. So when I was pregnant that would be, that was fine cos it just Sat on top? Yeah, sat on top really. And er with Michael I'd gone out in Richard's and bought mys , ever such a full raincoat when it was in fashion. I still had it in the wardrobe so I just used to . But I still had more room than I needed in that so that was quite useful. Actually Christine normal size twelve dress that happened to be a full dress. Oh, a baggy one. And she's, she's quite it's a kind of cottony, stretchy, you know those ones that you have a V and then they're quite full, like this is full from there? Oh, I know, yeah. This is like a V. Well the V's just kind of gone up. It actually looked quite nice on her. She didn't look too bad considering. I hardly wore any dresses. Well she's got, she said she just wears the three, I don't think she likes like the trousers. Oh it's boring, isn't it, being pregnant? Because you don't want to go and buy as many clothes as you would have in your wardrobe normally. The killer is when you've got to go out to a special occasion isn't it? Yes. And you know you've got to Yeah. I bought this really expensive one, you know I was can't remember a wedding or something so I had to buy something. Finished your discussion? You enjoyed your non-smoking did you? Sorry? You enjoyed your non-smoking did you? Is it cold out? No mild. . It's a bit, nippy round the gills. Mm. Mm Well I'm going fishing on Saturday. Do you wanna dozen, a trout, if you, if I Oh yes please. have any success? Yes. Yes I enjoyed that trout last time. He doesn't even like it. He doesn't like trout? Well he does, but he won't eat it. Why won't you eat it? I suggest having trout for dinner, no. Don't fancy it. I like er we've actually had trout in the freezer for ages, and not used them fresh the day I got them I'll use it and I'm keen on trout if it's got a sauce. Mm. But to be honest I shouldn't be eating that sort of thing anyway, so I like it best with almonds, flaked almonds on the top. Mm. And that's not on my diet either. Actually onions and mushrooms in garlic butter How've you been doing? Oh alright, yeah. Last, I broke it last night didn't have enough time cos I was, if I'm doing his books all afternoon. Mm. And I didn't have time to cook so he went out, cos I broke it last night , well I was alright up to lunchtime. It's dinner time again. I shall start again tomorrow. Other than that I don't usually break it. How much have you lost? I haven't really lost, in weight I haven't lost any more but it's coming, my body's It's shaping you up? Yeah, yes. Cos, kind of, all my clothes You look a bit thinner in the face and neck. Yeah. I think it's maybe it's turned to muscle, I don't know. Redistributing Yeah, yeah. I don't know how to describe it. Cos I'm not actually losing weight, but my clothes all feel, you know I can get into clothes I haven't worn for ages. Mm. Well Suzy's going to Weightwatchers again. Is she? She doesn't look like she needs to really. She's put on a little bit of weight. She has put on a bit, but I tell you what Suzy, Suzy's problem is her rump and her her Yeah her legs. and her thighs. That's where she Because if you look at the top of her, you you wouldn't think No, you wouldn't think she was overweight. Take a picture of her head and shoulders. Mm. You'd think she was skinny. Mm. Well, she went right down to a size ten when she lost all that weight before. What is she now? Fourteen. Blimey. Mm. So she has got a problem then. It's all round the bottom. Mind you, cycling should help that. She's out cycling here and getting the train in the morning. Keeps her bike in the garage and pops on the train. So you don't need a lot of in the garage. No that's right. jacket. Mind you, isn't there some restrictions on what you can do with fridges? I think you can ask the council to take it away or something or take it to the dump you can take it down the tip, They recycle CFC's don't they? That's right, yeah. Really goes against the grain to see . Mm. Well we don't really need another one. We've got a fridge in the at work, there's one in the kitchen Can't you find Can't you find what? or something? Well it's difficult, isn't it really? Because it's, it's er under, under worktop Well, if, if they enquire they're only enquiring . That's true. Just ask for a fiver. Cos if you say nothing they probably think there's something wrong not working so they don't want to take it. have to get somebody to take it away. Well I think it's going to be a case of phone the council and ask them to Do they take them? I don't think I'll get it in the car anyway. Who's asleep proper now? now isn't she? Pardon? She gone? I'm not sure. Well how much does it cost to get in the cinema ? About four quid isn't it. Is it? I'll have to buy the tickets occasionally. I think it's about three, three seventy five. Something like that. Oh, cos Joelle was trying to, trying to work out if she can afford to have her hair done and go to the cinema. What does she wanna go and see? White Fang. White what? It's the latest Walt Disney. It's a story about a wolf. Oh that one. Fantasia. What'd you say? We want to go and see that Fantasia's coming out It's a last, last ditch attempt to get some money out of it, is it? And what was the other one? I was told, wasn't I? Fantasia and It wasn't one we wanted Hundred and One Dalmatians? No, no, we would have wanted that. Oh yeah that's it. Yes it was, yeah latest one, it made a massive, massive loss apparently. I shouldn't bother about it . It's so boring. I'd like Fantasia. I'd probably be sad and disappointed. My memory of it would probably be . Yeah, of course you saw it as a kid, didn't you? fifteen I think. Fifteen, sixteen. Oh no I saw it when I was about eight. And I saw it before that, about, yeah about eight as well. But I still enjoyed it the second time. Well I don't think actually, I mean I can remember and I don't quite understand what's going on here, keeps swapping and changing and I don't understand it. I remember I didn't like the orchestra bit. weird psychedelic bits. That's right, yeah. The Nutcracker Suite's my favourite. Hippos and things doing ballet dances. asleep. No, she's not asleep. I thought you said she was asleep. She was. She's just woken up. Well. What do you want to do? Shall I put you in your chair? Shall I? Oh you do make funny faces little girl. Do you remember provisional driving licence? Now how long has she left that sitting there? Ages isn't it I thought I'd tidy up in his desk and I was just going through the mound of papers, and I said here you are here's your licence, finish it off, fill it in, and I'll give you the cheque. Oh right, I'll and then she's moaning at him cos she wants to go and post it and you were mucking about with your C D thing or something and you were saying wait for me I'll do this then I'll miss the post. It's been sitting there for about three months. On the desk and she hasn't bothered probably with the cheque. How are you going to afford a driving licence? Totally ignored me. Oh, of course,expecting us to pay. Oh, that's a nice choccy. She sounded really cheesed off about I said how's your revision going, cos I knew she was doing revision, she went cccckkk I try a maths paper and I can't do that, and I a chemistry paper and I can't do that and I really . I said I think you need a break. I think you need to go and do something else for a little while I said cos if you keep looking over thinking you can't do it, have a break and go back to it afterwards you just get really despondent Yeah. and fed up and think you can't do it and you go blank and then you can't touch anything you and you know it's hard. Mm. Yeah. You know, you can see it ticking over . What am I doing. She was fine tonight, wasn't she? What was she doing? I dunno, I think she just, probably gone down and played some records or something . She's got to do some trigs and she just doesn't fancy trying, doesn't understand enough of it to do it. And the science paper she's only got the the kind of practice one, it's a very basic one. She's got no practice ones for the two, the other two she's got to do which are obviously going to be harder and she's got no idea, not, well she's got the guidelines but no real paper to sit and look at. Mm. This is for GCSEs isn't it? Yeah. Mm. Well you'd think they'd let her, you know have some old paper Does she have or not? Yes, she erm There aren't any old papers yet though are there? Well yeah this is done in Croydon last year and the year before so yeah there would be a couple Oh right. cos this was Croydon I'm pretty sure it yeah because otherwise she couldn't have the basic from last year would she? She's got last year's basic. Yes she's done er, both, three? four Well on Tuesday she goes in and goes, she's got till Tuesday, one's about six and one's five. Course Danielle's in the middle of it all now, isn't she? We probably know quite a lot of people who are taking exams of one sort or another at the moment. Gabby's going through A levels. Mm. She's decided she's gonna to become a milkwoman. Bit easier, is it? Yes. Doesn't want to be a doctor any more. She's wanted to be a doctor for six years now she's decided One of Mandy's friends wants to be a doctor. It's the one who's had cancer and she wants to kind of, go on and study and help the people with cancer. Cos she doesn't want to be like depressing, she said er no she doesn't feel like that because she's already gone through the worst so she won't, yeah she wants to help people who've got it. Which I thought was quite nice. Mm. Nice idea. Mind you, that's what motivated my brother in M S Mm. cos he had a, he had it, had it as a kiddy. Went through so many operations he felt he wanted to give something back to the Health Service. Well I think that's the kind of idea this girl's got. Cos, that's right we took, we took them all skating when Mandy was twelve . Yeah when she was twelve. And that's when, that week, well she already knew she had something wrong Mm. and about two weeks after that it was diagnosed that she had cancer of the ovary. Yeah. Cos she had all her bits removed, presumably did she? Yeah I presume so. She had quite a bit of work done. She had chemotherapy. She lost all her hair. Has it all come back? Oh yeah. She's all fine now. Is she fully full recovered? Yeah, I think so, yeah. From what I can gather. Very lucky. Mm. Yeah because it was pushing everything. You know it was taking up so much space. Wouldn't think there was the room in there for, for women. I was really worried at the time cos Mandy, Mandy was very worried, wasn't she? Mhm. It really seemed to hit her hard. Actually her friends have gone through a lot. I mean what with that girl and cancer, and then another good friend, her father died. Then, it's quite a lot to happen, isn't it? Really makes her think. Or worry. Mm. Whose father died then? Celestian's Oh Christ. He had, er, sickle cell, didn't he? Oh that funny version of sickle cell, wasn't very nice. Didn't know there was two versions of . How's that, er, Phil getting on with bringing up her, her baby? We haven't heard anything for I think she's alright yes. I don't think she does anything, well I don't really see her very much. Well her best friend's Well it must be, nearly two by now. Yeah, she's walking and, she's slow at walking though. Yeah, she looks alright. says she's not very well, she's got a thyroid infection, infection in her throat it's affecting her stomach. They took her down the hospital. And, they diagnosed that, and said try and keep, you know, give her fluids, but it's going straight through. And they've given her something low in glucose and that you know to kind of try and stabilize it a bit. Mhm. But she's not too good by the sounds of it. Mind you I saw her two day's ago and she looked absolutely fit as a fiddle so I said I think it strikes quickly and Mm. You know she looks a lot more comfortable in there than Charlotte did. Charlotte always looked sort of Scrunched up. She seems to like it It's the longest she's stayed in it. I wonder what's . Enough enough, do you want to go buy some Polo? Mm. Alright stop it then keep that Come on. Just a minute love. Put it on alright? Yeah. Off we go. Right off we go then. See you later Yep, where are my keys? Where did you put them, in the dining room? Found one what? Polo. Polos just one Polo. No just one packet. I think we might be able to manage that. Aha. Off we go Just a minute darling it's alright I can afford to buy you a packet of Polos. Off we go again I go home. Pet hold mummy's hand hold mummy's hand, there's a good girl off we go. I give you money. Bye. Bye watch out. Shut the door there we are. Bit chilly, I run round. A bit chilly is it? Is it a bit chilly? Never mind. Yes that is a bit chilly. What's a bit chilly? That's a bit chilly, he's a man. It's a man, is he a bit chilly, he doesn't look chilly he's got a coat on. Pardon? Look at me when you're talking to me I can't hear you. a man. It's a man there's lots of men. Can I go on there? Can you go on where? Oh oh thank you. Oh you want to walk on that, oh Charlotte come on then, you're pushing me into the road. Go in the road. I don't want to go in the road. No. No. You do. I don't. I go on there see. Mm. Gonna fall. Oh dear, I'm sorry. Who's coming to see you today? Can you remember? Grandma. Pardon? A train. Who's coming to see you? Grandma's coming to see me. Grandma's coming to see you, that's right and who else? Pardon? Grandma and Granddad. Granddad that's right. Granddad. Or it's Grandpa Granddad's in American isn't he? Granddad's a long way away, he's on holiday. Yeah, on holiday. On holiday that's right, he sent you a letter didn't he? He sent you a letter. Hold me a little bit. What love? Hold my hand nicely sweetheart, there's a good girl we're coming up to a busy road in a minute and it's dangerous Walk nicely darling, there's a good girl walk nicely just stand still a minute sweetheart hold my hand Charlotte please hold my hand there's a good girl. Little bit further. Little bit further yes, it's not very far it's not very far It's not very far. to the shop is it? not very far. Not very far no. Oh that's a hole, a hole. A hole in the road yes there's lots of holes in this road. Can I go on there? Can you, oh alright then . lot's of people dig up the pavement don't they? Can I go on there? Can you, yeah go on no you hold my hand please no running away, no running away there's too many cars alright. No I'm not I'm not. Not what? We're not going in the car are we? No we're not going in the car we're walking aren't we? Oh Charlotte loo will you pick up your feet. Pardon? Oh nearly there. Pardon? Right we go across the road now nicely. Cross the road. Cross the road now you stand there stand still, give me your other hand good girl right now is it all clear Now you can cross. O K off we go off we go. Off we go. Off we go up the step there's a good girl. Ooh ooh ooh. Charlotte please, can you walk nicely? Pardon? It's here. We're nearly there yes. In here. No we're not going here we'll go a bit further. No you must hold my hand darling, it's too dangerous too many cars alright too many cars. What? I can't hear you sweetheart, speak up. Charlotte what did you say? What did you say? I can't hear you I'm sorry wait till we get in the shop too noisy all these cars isn't it there we are nearly there now nearly there. In you go good girl Hello. Hello How are you? Fine thank you. Hello about little one. Pardon? So what time Little boy or girl? No, no a girl. A girl. Yeah . Right is there anything else you want? Something else you want, I got some Polos. Oh give it to me. Want anything else? Erm You often get the chance so make the most of it. Any books No you ca not toffees darling, you want some Smarties you can have some Smarties. That's . That's Smarties yes, do you want Smarties yeah? I want Smarties. You want Smarties alright that's all then. Alright. We'll get one of those for another day that's it now, no more don't touch You stay there, don't touch them good girl. Sixteen pounds please. Got some. Put it down you're not having any more, no Alright there's good girl you can hold a packet of Polos that's right. I want Polos. You want Polos, I know that's why we came out isn't it lucky girl. She likes Polo? I like Polo. She's adores them I don't ha , I don't know if this is normal for a child this age to eat Polos, but Actually I like Polo I don't like other so erm I'm not really sure what does it like Polo mint. I want Polos now. You want, oh alright you can have one, just one. I don't know why I mean why I like Polo. They are nice, they're not too strong are they? There we are right you have those. Nice smelling. Right off we go then, we go home go on then say bye bye. Bye bye. Bye. See you again. Hold my hand then come on hold mummy's hand, there's a good girl no you've got to pull it bye. Alright little one. Oh this is mummy's hat. Who? So what was the problem on the journey then? Mummy Well we got to and there's three weeks well when we came up at the beginning of May there was a notice on the main main twenty one which said No they're done yet love. Okay. The tatties. long delays expected from May thirteenth for three weeks due to major resurfacing Hello. etcetera etcetera Hello. so You sleepy girl? we avoided the area Until today? and as we're right up towards the end and now after the bank holiday we've had lovely fine weather anyway, we got off to the main road and turned at Fibwell traffic lights onto the A twenty one and we got the to end of the dual carriageway onto the tail end of the queue as it started into the road works so I just went over the central reservation and went back down the dual carriageway to the traffic lights at Fibwell and turned right went through Tyse Tysehurst to Wothurst round the north side of Bule reservoir to come out at Lamberhurst in the village so I sort of circled it Oh right. which added another half an hour to the journey Oh well you got here but in the middle of all that of course there were numerous little bits of temporary traffic lights at roadworks which conspired to change when we approached them and generally it was a bitch of a journey Hee hee hee hee hee. I see your fork tha I see your fork. You've seen that before. Mm. You've seen that before. Oh was it upstairs? Yes. And it's still still do doing well. it well it's it's lost some it's style by by being picked. Ow. Some of them have picked been picked. Oh yes you've gotta show Grandpa that Grandpa look. This is flavour of the month. Oh you've got some Lego bricks. What real Lego? Yeah she had it as a present on Lego. Oh Oh Lego basic It's come a long way Or or ordinary size, is it? it's come a long way since we had Lego. Has it? You look at the doors and the windows, yeah Oh yes of course, yeah. Look at these blocks. Oh well that's good I can get the Lego out now then can't I at home? It's a little bit advanced. Is it? She usually requires Yeah but I mean we've got a lot of she requires a helper. Yeah. I've made a donkey. You've made a donkey. A donkey. A donkey. A donkey. Is that a donkey? Joelle's going to the hairdresser in a minute. Yes, she just said she's making herself a sandwich. Right, what's up? She's going to the hairdresser, I said she could go seeing as you would be here. I hope you don't mind? No dear What what time will she be there? I don't know what does it take an hour or so? Oh she's only just having Appointment's for half past one she's having shampoo and set. Shampoo and set, oh nobody shampoos and sets mother! Blow dry. That's right. Yeah, shampoo and blow dry. Well anyway she's having er she's having it her hair restyled. Oh. Oh well she'll be ba she'll be back before half past Is it? four won't she? Is that when you're off? We're going back half past four alright? I sincerely hope so. I shall have words to say if she's not it's a working day today. Mm. It's a working day. Oh well she sounds as though she's good. Yeah she has. Been what? Working day. door. Oh. Oh they're nice little windows well I think we've got some haven't we? We've got lots of windows, yes. I think we have got windows. Oh well windows yes but they're not Yeah, but they don't open like that. No, these it's it's Oh no these are super. The door is great I mean it's bigger actually the doors and windows are bigger now than they used to be, aren't they? Oh are they? Well you can make Still make I can get it out though can't I, to er you know. You'll have to watch her she's put there's a couple of flowers in there she's put in her mouth. Oh. It's there, and the very little bits of roof for example, probably wouldn't No I won't be a good idea. No, Jessie not time yet, no no Jessie. Are you going to sleep now? Oh dear. Please go to sleep please. Doesn't she look nice in that? Yeah, it's the first time these actually keep a lot better than the towelling ones. Do they? Mm. I mean this has been worn and washed many times for Charlotte. That's not the one I bought is it? No, what did I what did I buy? I bought her a thingy. Did you, oh no this is an old one. That's an old one is it? Oh it looks new doesn't it? Yeah. Yes,th the velour types do. Yeah. No mine was a bit bigger wasn't it? Yes all the new ones are hanging in the wardrobe Oh. cos they're all too big aren't they? It might be my fault, perhaps I've been rushing around too much cos that affects your milk supply of course. Mm Could be me. It doesn't go on there. Perhaps it wasn't erm Does he go on there? perhaps it's a bit thin, ha. No, he doesn't no, looks silly on there. It's going down isn't it eh? Getting there. Oh not bad. He might go in, go on there Got some new trousers? he might. No, these are old ones. that goes there Are they? Oh. and then we put Oh no I wouldn't wear anything new, not yet. put that in there not yet. Right. Not with all the unmentionables that go thrown all over you at this stage. Come on then let's have a little bit of wind a little bit of wind come along. Oh she's a little spotty soul isn't she? Well they're going. Mm. A lot of them have got them What you doing? Let's hope she can't get the measles. Poor Aah. At least she's smiling. I'm afraid you know why. Windy smiling. Yes ah. You should There's a sad and there's a happy face, look Come on then have it up. isn't it? Put on a happy face . Oh it's awful when they don't when they won't do that isn't it? Some babies do and some babies don't you had a bad night as well? See you. Bye. Bye. Bye. Good luck. Bye. Bon chance. Thank you. One of us had a wonderful night, but somebody else decided to disrupt it. Oh dear. This one went asleep at eleven so I thought oh well I'm O K till fiveish, maybe Mm. but she was busy busy all evening What's that for? Mm. then somebody appeared in the bed at two o'clock this morning Nothing. and I really wasn't quite with it what was going on What are you standing on? before I knew it she was suffocating she was lying across my neck. Oh. But erm after I'd choked for half an hour she went to sleep I eventually went back to sleep again and Use that. she woke up at quarter to five. Oh what a shame. No no, no you can't And then she went back about half past five until nine o'clock. What this one? Yeah. Yeah. So it would have been a wonderful night. It would wouldn't it? Yeah What about that one did she go back to her own bed? Mm she no she Oh. woke up about quarter to seven, I think I was oblivious I just about sailed off again about after putting this back. Mm. erm Oh I wonder what got her up then? Goodness knows and she came toddling in with Postman Pat and Yeah. various other books the dogs Cos the trouble is it's a bit light then isn't it? What two o'clock? No. Oh it was two was it? Perhaps she's gone out She's gone out Okay sweetheart, come here love, let's get your jacket on. Alright, alright I'm coming I'm coming. You shouldn't drop your books on the floor darling, cos that's a special book. That's your muzzy book, you mustn't si look come on watch what you're doing right let's do it up, come here! Come on mum. Right, there's a good girl. Ooh you have got a big frame, haven't you? Goodness me! Alright? Yeah. Let me just check, Oh Jessie honestly why we stick to one place careful. Yes, there's one. Let's hope there's no right where she's going. Ooh there's a big girl aren't you? Ah? Yeah I'm a big bear. You're a big bear are you? Yeah. That's awkward isn't it? Wha well I can't do it. Getting underneath there. I think that's the only one, oh more here. Ready? Weeee there. Grandpa Come here,don mind where you're walking, sweetie-pops. Go on you show me. Climb up and show Grandpa Charlotte. Go on love Charlotte Charlotte come here love, please Grandpa's coming where was that I can't remember? Ornamental thistles? They're bloody vicious! They are vicious yes. Charlotte, come over here and show Grandpa. Right don't worry Dad I'll res I'll be spraying them. Look Grandpa, you've got to watch her. Grandpa. Alright Grandpa's looking. Whey! Look . look Grandpa a shade. Go and find this one now alright hon. Oh. Whey! One more. One more? You coming? Oh I'm not coming no. Grandpa can't go up there. You've go in little houses there are have you? Ooh look at that isn't that nice! Ooh. Dadda ! Hello darling, come on I said to her when she goes back to Tumbletots I shall expect big things of her. Mhm. No more being shy and going up the high one. Marvellous Now I've seen all this I don't know about my question, whey! Question of what? Sponsoring her. Cos she awfully loaded, the dice has been loaded against her. Oh no, bear in mind there's twenty others of them. Oh. Twenty other, kiddies all doing the same. Will she be in her little house? Oh yes, do you want to go in your tent? Charlotte go in your little tent Mummy come and say hello through the window. at the window, in you go then. Okay. Okay then. I can reach. Boo! I can reach. Hello. I can reach. Where's Charlotte? I can. Ooh ooh, Charlotte, hello. Hello. Don't ooh. How long does this last? Mm What sort of I don't know what life wait. expectancy is, oh. Up to five I should think, five to six. Mm, yeah maybe a bit more. Presumably, you could get new ones? Wait until we've braced it. Ready, whey! It's very well made isn't it? Look, Grandpa. Are you Yes , it's a good one. Has she had a go on that? Yes, and she can't quite work out how to do it yet cos it moves. Oh, oh actually Charlotte love Oh dear, she hasn't No, because I've put the chair over it. legs over here do you? Er, no you hang on it. Grandpa Grandpa. Ooh, it's a bit fresh Shall we go back inside now? when the wind blows. No. Let's go inside cos Joelle will be back soon We'll go and say hello Joelle. Oh no. Oh put it down, it's all wilderness isn't it? Ooh. Oh no. Never mind. Blowing, blowing I want blowing. You want blowing? Ooh, ooh oh! Oh. Must you, she wants to make sure I've got a constant supply I have Sadie to thank for that. Mm,wha She showed her how to do that. Mm. We had a nice day on Monday. Mm, well it was nice weather wasn't it? Mm yes. Never mind your I'm sure your thing will survive. Oh you've got a good there coming along, haven't you? Yes. Are they some of the poppies, at the back there or I don't think these are anything to do with you. They're not mine are they? These ones just appeared I think. Yes er I've got one or two they're sort of Another one there they're wild ones and yet they're big sort of cultivating wild ones. Mm Mm. Oh goodness me! And there's a lupin that appeared from nowhere. Oh Goodness me! Mm. Oh no! Oh. It's not going to do anything though. Well, it will if you leave it. One day. Yes. What's those things over there on the wall, some of those are alright aren't they? Yes, some of them Charlotte don't got over there lovey there's some poo there come on. Come here mustn't walk on that. No. We'll walk up the path. Shall we go in? Let's go inside, and see Amy. No. Yes. Come on darling. No, no, no. We'll come out again later. Come on there's a good girl, in you go. Grandpa. Yeah, Grandpa's coming. In you come love good girl there you go, there we are . up you come. What are the big tubs for? Well I'm going to put these two plants in it together. Oh the two oh the two of them? Yes. Yeah. Come in the lounge. Come on then sweetie-pops mm. One per loo, mm. Quick can you pa pass behind me please Charlotte. There's a good girl I've got the shopping, don't make a noise. Oh it's alright we don't have to be silent. Hey wait a minute love, just a minute. Charlotte, that's it then you can take yours in there can't you? There we are. There you go. I just hope she'll sleep for a little while. Yes, perhaps she will. Put the kettle on. I don't think so. No no Charlotte don't do No don't go in there Charlotte please. Not out here sweetheart, please. Come on. You don't come out here with it normally do you? You can walk round the kitchen but that's it. Leg over. Yeah. There we'll do, just pulling out the stuff I want. Smells nice doesn't it? Tumble. Mm? I say I'm just pulling out the stuff I can tumble. Sheet in here somewhere. It's warm you've dropped a sock. Come here sheet where are you. Oh , there it is. That's dreadful sheets and my night clothes has to be washed daily. Yes, I bet they do. Oh you're such a if I may and some sort of one of my projects. Mhm. And I want to What sort of picture do you want? Well I don't know, what would you suggest? You can't erm well if it's a big bit it wants to be something baby doesn't it? Oh something baby yes. Like a teddy or Yes, well cos we got the teddy on tha ducks. on that little free freebie. Well I I'll ask I was thinking of doing a teddy but I thought I wanted sort of one, two or three things don't you on the bottom? Isn't it the latest erm Ah it's just a monogram of one. it's the latest embroidery magic thing sort Oh. Have you had them all? Yes I have I I've looked through them all. Charlotte come away lovey You keep her out here a minute I'll just go and find a couple of books. Oh you haven't had that much off have you? My presents. No said she My presents, my presents, my presents Cos of the perm. My present. You want a present Oh dear. You want to put it in the fridge? There are. Oh dear I'm sure that child wants all this lot. Well you never know. Stupid ! You might find something in there actually. Where? I've already started something. Oh. Hello. doo doo doo doo doo doo. There, There's all sorts of possibilities, there's one other book which I think is upstairs somewhere, if you don't find something in there there should be some more. I said to her when, when he was finished I said it's good enough cos you're sure what you you're doing but I said It's quite a nice little book actually I think, that one. Oh is it? Oh there's one there. There's a teddy. Mm. Not such a nice teddy though is it? No I like that tassel . I don't like the flowers. , I wonder what green that's done in. Don't know. Don't know it's a mauve, something. It's flowers of some sort. posies. Do you think you could change her nappy for me? Okay. I've only just got rid of the baby. Jacket off. It's been round my neck all the time. Jacket off. Pardon? I say I've only just go been able to put the baby down No no no no no . I had to have her. It's a shocker. And she needs a new nappy or taken off altogether please. Aah! Some flowers here I've not done a wee. No I haven't. Course you have. No no no no Pardon? Oh. Don't hit. No, darling give us and you give a kiss love he we give a kiss good girl Now don't forget you do a wee in your potty okay? Right? In here. In there. Do you want to do one now? Yeah. Oh good girl, pull your trousers down then. Alright? There's lots of things in here aren't there? Can you manage? That's right. There . isn't that nice? There. Oh look. Where's Grandpa? Smoke too much. No, it's not. Grandpa's in the garden pulling up thistles. I've been looking in there. Did you did you say one in here? No Oh. they're different. Oh. There's trains and buses an , balloons and things and things. Don't put that in the bin please. Run Grandpa. Mm. They're a bit bleak aren't they? Hello Thank you very much. Monkeys, sea lions. Do you not have little nuts and bolts in the garage? Erm You've probably got some jars. Oh dear. Oh oh oh oh that's not bad. I'll er just go and have a look. I can see that. What? Oh yes, yes I'm covered in white streaks it's a hazard isn't it? It's a hazard. Erm, I don't know whether th , Charlotte where I don't want you going in the dining room lovey, I'm sorry baby's asleep. Are you going. No I'm going in the garage. I come in the garage. Yes alright you can come. Will you come in the garage? Don't touch anything will you. Out the way then. No touching. We have to do this dee dee da da da dee Wait, Charlotte wait! On the bear Shhh! On the bear. On the bear . Onto what? I've no idea, she's knows what she's talking about. Oh I thought it was a bicycle That's on the bear That's on the bear. Oh it's a bear. A bear. It's a bear. That's on the bear. Oh the bear. Oh or less. Swimming pool, mum. Oh right. There's a few bits in there the rest of the stuff like that is in the where the erm beer is. Oh are there other other I think so I don't know how much. Ah alright yes nothing worth mentioning in there no nor there. Any likely candidates in there? I don't think so. I just did a potty. You want the potty? You go inside then please go on you can take that with you but if you want the potty you g go and sit on it now cos I don't want any more wet trousers. No, No, okay we I'll go along to B & Q and get some there's a little pack. Might you? Well because there's no point in putting this window back until I've fixed these onto the thing, I've gotta take the glass out to put this in then slide the glass back on Oh right. because the bolts actually go up between the plate and the glass and there's only that much space so Oh right, Oh we've gotta have tiny little bumps then? Yeah, that's right well we've gotta put them round anyway but once I've got that on I can take the st steps in then no, I shall leave those there I'll just go and have a look at the other frame. The key hangs by the door. What out here? The back door. Right. Come on your potty's in here darling, come on you'll trip over if you try and walk too far like that, come on I've got to no come on. No no no! Charlotte. Now we'll have enough of that noise, come on. She doesn't want to. If you want to sit on your potty you sit on it I don't want a nonsense. Don't want to sit on her potty. Joelle could you come in here please. How many have you looked at? Well, that one and that one and that one. And we're and we're grown up ! Where's Grandpa? That one. Where's Grandpa? You haven't got any of this in yellow have you? No, only got red. No , I might have a bit of pink. Somebody want cup of tea or coffee or? Oh yeah mm a cup of tea please. Cup of coffee. Do do do do do do do. Dad'll have a cup of tea. Oh. Oh that'll be quite nice for do do do do do do do I like the pear. What that pear. So that's pear. Mm not very kiddy-fied is it? Well what wo , oh that's nice. What? That rabbit. Mm. Little rabbit. Little rabbit erm, yes alternatively I think so There wh there were no cos there's loads of things for children in the embroidery magic series there's no no possibilities in it? Erm, I didn't fancy them somehow, went through the whole lot, the other day an just didn't sort of take my eye, if you know what I mean. Oh. You've got to do all these have you? Erm, apart from them. Check them properly. Whoopsadaisy! Alright? You're alright aren't you? Whoops! book. Muscles. Small writings. Yes, I better nip down to B & Q. I must You don't have to do it now if you don't want to, but it's very nice of you but Well he it won't it won't get done for a couple of weeks' time then you'll say It won't get done though no it won't, you're quite right. Oh well no I'll do it next time I'm here and it'll be August. Erm I don't like elephants. Yes, I can always put this round the reverse way so that goes in there well it won't Also it won't interfere. it won't hurt it I mean cos this is sort of like that anyway you know i it sort of suppose it does, I'll have to see. Wha tell you what might save you a journey out there somewhere there's two automatic vent things which I bought to fit but never did but surely they would have bolts and fittings in them. Well I could maybe yes, that's why we need a few more to last than you possess I'll go out and have a look and see about these. They're either in the greenhouse or in the shed. Oh right. I think. Yeah, I'll have a nose round and I'll, yes I could possibly put the window back and shut one of the vents, yes. Well it should have its so and nuts and bolts. I'll have a look. A wizard wheeze. Mm. A wizard wheeze, yes. Oh I forgot I had them Oh that's pretty wha ooh. Mm it's rather sweet, perhaps it would have looked nice a bit further down. Well you could do it where you like couldn't you? Oh these are little dear little Oh they're rather dinkish aren't they? Mm. Almost any litt I mean you could do anything round the edge you don't have to Grandpa ! No. Grandpa ! He's gone outside darling. I've I've got a, a piece of this, this stuff I I bought it a piece sort of square they were selling it off cheap Charlotte. which is enough to do four little little pictures I thought I might do for the craft thing in September, erm you know our flower festival and erm in which case I'd have had to purchase a few of your little thingies that's pretty. Mm. Are you working from that book? Not at the moment. Could I borrow it? Yep, I'm not working from anywhere at the moment. These are nice Oh no, no it's just a nice book this one. Mm mm it is rather nice isn't it? Pretty flowers. Right easy to forget about. Mm. What have you got there then? They're pretty aren't they? Mm, pretty poppies Oh well I shall That's what I was doing. Mm, that's obviously what you're going to do cos you've got, August colours there. Yeah, mm well I was just picking a bit out of it Yes. it was for a card Mm. It wasn't for No yeah well that's the sort of size piece I've got I think or maybe it's a little bit bigger than that. Grandma do you want er skim skimmed milk? Yes please I don't want that. It's Charlotte's. She's giving you or apple juice is she? Pardon? She's only giving me Charlotte's drink. There's a nice duck. Oh yes, there's a nice duck yes that's nice mm. I think anything I do in the future is going to be purely from home consumption or from places Yes I mean I'd like to do something like that, but you couldn't sell it Mm, mm, mm, mm yes. No. well you could but you couldn't sell it for a reasonable price. Erm, yeah now pictures you want with I mean there's no panic but Oh yes, yeah when is it? er it's not till September. You've got to erm, I've got to get well Dad's got the form I can get another one he can, erm the forms have got to be in soon so she knows how many are going to be sort of on the walls you know. Mm. Erm, but you can have three three things No. What are you doing with your pop pole? I want Oh nice isn't it? Erm yes three pictures that you might like to sell if you give me a price for them. What sort of erm price do they go for, things like that would you think? I've got no idea but I mean some pictures are very expensive Mm. the painted pictures. Ha. I mean what were you going to hoping to sell them for anyway? Grandma. Mm? Twenty plus five, twenty What's that? twenty five you know depending on the size If there's a dog out there Grandma. You'd like to think that you I was I was tempted to sell it off cheap but I don't want to sell it off too cheap cos it's Grandma, Grandma, Grandma, Grandma, Grandma why's that? because of the price of the frame is quite expensive in itself. Yeah. But if that I mean it doesn't worry me if I don't sell that cos it's quite pretty in poppy. Grandma, Grandma, Grandma. So it's the dog and that and the poppy. Oh right. Really oh excuse me. Er , so erm You started yet? No. Not at the moment, there you are let's move there. Well it was but that was a long time ago I started that, it was tucked inside the book thank you. Thank you. Just a minute, cos er we must wait for tea in the teapot. Oh, oh that's coffee is it? Oh Oh Adam's given her strict instructions as to how to make tea. Oh I see, yes, you have to wait a few minutes. So she puts the pinger on for three minutes. erm yes now the Beckley Church, friends of Beckley church make a quarter I think of whatever you sell it for. Cor! I think it's a quarter Twenty five per cent? Or is it ten per cent? That's a big commission? Erm I'm not sure now. I'm going to have to up the price considerably then. No , it wasn't I don't think it was can't be can't be twenty five per cent Thank you darling. it's more likely to be ten ten per cent. Ten or fifteen. Yeah, something like that. No more. Well whatever. Well I mean you could put them in for thirty, couldn't you? Grandma Erm, you could try and if they don't go well they don't go. They don't go. Do you want er sweeteners? No, not for me thank you sugar for Grandpa please. Yeah. Erm, there's no reason why you can't put them in at that price I mean they're Some mug might buy them! then little dog may be erm won't go perhaps for that much. Well no there's no no mount or anything on that one it's just as is that was a, the cheapest frame I could do cos I didn't like it when I finished it and I begrudged the price of the frame. Oh I think he's I think he's quite nice. Oh well you can buy him if you want. No I don't want him but I still think he's quite nice I mean He's alright but he's there's no accounting for taste some people you know buy funny things. Yeah, I wouldn't buy it. No. I'll give it height but I wouldn't buy it. So they're the only ones you want to get rid of or are they the only ones you've got? Yeah, well I've still got the other two but I don't know whether Brian and Pauline are going to want them back, I mean they've just, I've had them back for a craft fair. Oh that's the, the tile The tile and the alphabet. Yeah. But I I really couldn't I would never get the price I would want for the alphabet. What would you want for that? Well I'd want over a hundred for that. Mm. Cos it's got an expensive frame and it's a lot of work. Mm. Ha. What's the matter? Don't you think you better wait till she comes back? Save me getting up. Now the I'm just trying to think of some some of those pictures that are in there now there was one, it was that size or in a pair like that lovely looking pictures Look at me. they were done by Peter , have you heard of Peter ? Look,rats ! he's we he's well known well known person I'd I Dad'll tell you who he is I'm erm now those two little pictures were oh I think they were hundred and something each maybe more. Well he's a well known artist. Well yes, I suppose he is. That helps. Yes, I suppose he is but I mean those two those pictures we bought were hundred and twenty and I mean they're they're only done by somebody in the village. Well yeah I mean the answer is But we like them. you pay what feel don't you? Yes. If you like something enough you know what you can afford and what you're willing to pay for it and if it's priced more then you don't buy it. That's right. But you see something like that might just appeal to somebody, an embroidered picture. You never know we will give it a try. Well. Is this in the flower festival? Yes. Well it's in keeping then isn't it? Yes, in the the . Yeah so I'll put you down for three then shall I? Mm. I don't know whether Dad's going to enter any photographs this year. Mm that he doesn't want to sell. Grandma, you're here. he's old what what was the percentage the church take on pictures, was it ten per cent or fifteen? Careful sweetheart. I think I have forget the sweeteners. Yes, I think so too. One. Erm I I'm not sure I need to look at the sheet I I thought it was ten when I looked. One. It can't be twenty can it? No, I think that's too much, I thought it was a quarter but it's not. Oh it's not twenty five per cent, no it's it's it's around ten or fifteen per cent on the list. What are you you're thinking of Thank you. the flower festival? Yes. Art exhibition? Yes. Well it's Yeah, that that would be one of them that little flower up there. Yes. And the pop poppies are in the hall aren't they? Mm. An and little dog in the hall. , what's that? It's coffee, it's hot. She probably wouldn't notice much different. Yeah Well it's not a lot it's only really the length which is different isn't it? Mm. She take it all of the What's this? All the split bits. Yeah. What's what? This. That that's for going in the swimming pool with her Oh it's erm a rubber ring with with holes. rubber ring, rubber ring, rubber ring It's a sit in type rubber ring. Oh I see. Mind the which Is she ? Who? The lady who cut her hair. Aha. She said how long er it was last time you cut your hair, I said five months and she said aah it's a lot. I haven't had my cut since last July. Haven't you? June , in fact, June. Ring a roses When I went Before the wedding Yes. Ring a ring a roses Well it might have been July, I can't remember. a pocket full of posies, tissue, tissue all fall down . all fall down . You can sing your songs now, are you going to sing your songs to Grandma? I didn't realise that that nursery rhyme commemorates the plague, the great plague. What the posies? Yeah, tissue, tissue all fall down Yes, with all fall down is the great plague in sixteen sixty six. sixteen sixty six. Sixteen sixty six. No sixteen sixty five. Sixteen sixty five, cos it was the great fire the sixteen sixty six, was erm burning Got rid of the plague yeah. Yeah. So which is the one I'm borrowing then? Tha that That one. That's the hardback one. I think so isn't it? Yes. Yes it is. It's funny how these things have got their origin, isn't it? Yes. The Black Death. Yes, that's not Jessie. Oh no Postman Pat's cat's called Jess. Yes, that's right. No, Postman Pat's did Oh it's in there the rabbits are in the medieval tapestry. There's a mouse in the house cheese only cheese. I must do a sampler for Amy. I'll Mm. Sometime Now then isn't that like oh dear, time for bed said Zebedee Mm next time I come I'll have a few little thingies off you Oh cards Oh. Oh you can have some now, if you want. in dog. What shape did you want? It's fun to learn with Thomas the Tank Engine. Small ones. I said what shape, not size you don't have a choice of size they're all the same. Oh are they oh, I don't mind. You can either have oblong oval, or round, I think. And what colour? Oh Pale blue, pale green, red erm cream er pale pink I think. Oh. You dream of this You There's a choice. There's a choice. this We'd better go upstairs and have a look hadn't we? Yes alright Oh I should have bought my work with me, my stump work with me to show you. Your what? My stump work. Stump work? Mm. What do you mean? I went to erm erm Charlotte stop climbing on the chairs please love. went to a craft afternoon a couple of weeks ago in Rye and er stump work is basically padded out embroidery or or whatever Oh yeah, oh look bees Erm ladybirds. What like quilting? Shut those eyes. Mm. Like quilting? Not really no, it's Flowers it's all sorts of things, there's Daisies, flowers er we did something called what's it called can't think of the name of the blooming thing now but it was you did a line across, then you learn to do a long stitch Yeah Yeah then you did button hole stitch round that Mm. then you did another line underneath, then you did button hole stitch round the line and the bottom of the other button hole stitch Good. and you ended with you had to do little squares and the you put your fing finger through it there's nothing nothing on the you don't catch the material down at all Except from side to side. except from side to side erm And what do you pad it with then? Mama. Well tha no that wasn't padded that was for don't quite know what they wanted to do with that erm but there was erm a face that was built up with three different sizes of felt, small, next size, next size up, not not much bigger each time, then you had a piece of calico a little bit bigger, you did a running thread all round the outside and pulled it so that it, lapped over the felt which you had stitched down first. Are you with me? No, not really. Did you hear that noise? Well imagine three pieces of felt one on top of the other Are you pushing ? Yes. the top one you just tack round not a little way in from the edge Mm. right got that now you have, then you have Did you do three different sizes of felt or? It is three different sizes yes, small, medium and large Right, O K. larger one on the top so it's a bit padded then you put the calico round the outside with the draw thread Oh, I moved the table right there you hear my voice? and pull it so that it tucks underneath. So what shape have you got? You've got a round like Well padded shape. round, slightly oval, whatever. Padded shape. Padded shape, yes. Right and you're making a face on it? Yes. Right I'm with you. Then you make a face on that, then you put a Would you get down off the table please. piece of felt, round the outside for his hair What are you getting up for? and then you satin stitch all over that, which I'm in the process of doing. Yet another flower. Mm, as if we haven't got enough. It's only really to scoop up all the prizes etcetera. No it's not I shan't be doing that It's not dirty. in September. Not dirty. Then we did loose leaves. Not dirty. Alright. Standing up leaves. It's gone. All gone? Erm, which is we do a Nice and clean are they? You put a needle in the material It's gone. and leave it there it's gone you do a V shape with the cotton from underneath the needle and up the other side a little way away from the needle Why don't you do a drawing for Grandpa? each side Mm. Then you do another one Show me what you can do. from right next to the needle down to the point and just go round it and then you weave it in and out like basket stitching and out over the cotton and under the cotton Gently till you get to the top little sticky to fasten off the back pull the needle out and you've got a leaf a standing up leaf. Oh right. Come here, give me it. So er You've been having fun then? Yes, and then she showed us some Charlotte! beads with big holes that you do embroidery silk round and round and cover them. Thank you. Thank you, I do it. What the beads? The beads, sew them on to fabric Anyway, don't do that like a bunch of grapes No, no no no you they're sort of purple and a back stranded coloured you know like you've got there. Oh Charlotte,don't do that, stop it. Mm. Leave it. And so I've done that I see plus two loose leaves up the top. I will mind Charlotte. C Which looks quite good. H A R Quite good can you afford the time to have all these breaks for other pursuits? Mm, it was only an afternoon, two till four. O T T E Mm. C H A R L O T T E Yes, we've had the erm It's written, Charlotte. You are in English classes. It says Charlotte. That's right. Very good. You should be doing it in small letters. No, pronunciation I mean. Yes, yeah no, I'm saying when you write, for her to see Instead of er it should be lower case letters. I dirty fingers Dirty fingers you've got. Really? Yes they learn, they learn to read lower case before they read capitals. Lower one. Oh I see, yeah that's it that'll do that's it yeah er erm You don't need to do that ah no. There's only one L. There's only one L. Charlotte. Right, L O that's it T T T T T T E E There. Hang on. Alright. What is the tail. It's a little you would you be careful and stop moving the table. We've had the Courage Magazine and it's got a write up of the er the May, our craft thingy at er You're no good, you don't listen. Somebody's having a go at the . Yes. and our The what? erm this Shirley that's done written this up and she said about our own craft evening and variety of things and all that. This is W I? Yes, this is W I. For our own one and it's got Miss June and Mr were the judges Mrs got the highest number of lots and won the cup is it He was judging, he was judging? he was only judging photographs. I was judging photographs in fact both Well that was badly written then wasn't it? Yeah, well I think that we ought to get them or somebody to put a retraction, I mean we daren't do it ourselves, but I think in next month's No more. magazine it should be pointed out, that Mr was only judging the photos. tha that erm Stop can you give me it back. Yes, it should be pointed out that I was only judging the photographs er and that er in a Yes, but I haven't freed this one yet. Can you give it to me? I'll get it I was only judging No Yes No, I I did it, I did it, my did it. in areas . Alright. Sounds like you've given them Yes. all the points doesn't it? I mean I shouting at you. sometimes I think that Shirley thinks she wouldn't understand anyway, what she was writing. No, I don't I don't think she I don't think it wasn't done with malice, she's just Oh no. Oh no. between the ears I mean she's a charming woman. But it's just the way people would read it. She lives on her own Yeah well I was I was accosted yesterday, by Stan I see he said I see you've got all the marks from Ron cos I hadn't read it you see yeah, he said that's how it reads. And it does read that way now Mm, yeah. we've got the paper. Oh well. So I reckon we ought to get Nan or one of these contributors to say, to point out that the Well I think she's made a mistake with Joan because Joan didn't get the plate for er the highest number of silver stars, it was gold stars. Yeah. That's wrong in the first place. Yeah. Where's he gone? Where's he gone? Is he So you just want that one? Yes, please. Thank you, yeah. That's alright. I'm sure I'll find something else I want. Oh I should think so. Do you want white or cream? Erm I suppose white is best really isn't it? I was thinking of doing doing a bib with a cotton lining which you can place in between do you know what I mean? Yes. I'll do a backdrop. Good. Oh, I think I should be making things for Jamie when she comes Yes I heard about Oh you told us about that Yes. You're not supposed to throw it on the floor where's the end there. Right how much do you want? Oh hang on the that a second big size. Oh it's all come undiddled. Oh is it? Right. Well if I just like that? Yeah, I should think that's big enough isn't it? Well then you'd probably make two or three there. Probably that's worth quite a lot of money isn't it? Yeah, probably, yeah. Would you like me to pay you? No. No, you sure? Yes, I'll have the eggs. Well you've probably got I've probably got a better deal there. Oh dear Well thank you. A few cards as well, that'll be that's worth a couple of dozen eggs I reckon. Oh yes , I'm sure it is dear. I'm naughty aren't I? No you're not naughty don't you don't mind anyway. Is it switched on? It is. Oh is it? Yes. Oh. Oh right that's it. I don't think I've got many cards up here they're in my bedroom I think let's have a look these are all done. Oh these are all all done ones. I think these are Yes, that's all I've got Ah. Some here. Well I don't want many because I'm not going to do that many. They're not Erm the colours you want are they? I suppose not really erm Did what shape did you want? I was going to have one of each wasn't I? One of each shape, but what colour? Yeah erm well that's quite a pretty colour isn't it? The green is yeah Mm. well that takes white quite nicely. Mm. I don't think I've got green one with a cream, no that's got white in it Is that all I've got left? Ha. Oh, you can have any of those. Oh right, yes alright I can see those they're not in the bedroom they're here. Oh right, I thought oh yes in the boxful I've got. Well there's green ones there's three ovals there, I think is it ovals? Ya, yes. Creamy coloured ovals, clear, is ovals the ones you prefer? Erm well I don't really mind erm, I don't want What, what colours have you got? Mm? What colours have you got? Well, this this white. Oh you're going to use that are you? Well I've got I've got a bit of that, which I think'll do one or two Right. or white It's best not to put white in that colour. Not in green, no they've got the white They've got the white goes alright in there. Yeah alright, well I'll have a Probably goes alright in there, it goes alright in there. Yeah alright well I'll probably only do about four so I don't want to take all the cards. Well look if I give you well there's two pink ovals with envelopes and three green ones. Right. How's that? Thank you very much much obliged. Are these to sell? Yes, they will, will be. Right then, you want some of those won't you? Oh I suppose so yes. One two three four, five five There you are, they just fold over with a Oh right right have some of those as well. cos then you just fold it over and er And stick the thing on, yeah stick it down an write the price on. Oh. There you are. Thank you dear You're all done now very much thank you What do I stick it with, Pritt? Did you use Pritt? No Copydex. Copydex, ah I'm sure we've got some of that. Yeah, just a tiny little bit Yeah, yeah. round the edges. Yes yes right I'll see what I can do by September I should be able to do a fair bit by then Yeah well I say I've done the doll, that's for August that's for the er Beckley fete but it's for, Friends of Beckley Church and it's guess the doll's birth date which as you said as you said it should have two Yeah. erm that's done erm, yes I've cut out the Just a minute Oh it's the other side. I've cut out the dress, so that's I've got to d start doing thingys on that now you know, picking up all the points Oh right. erm I've got to get that done I've got to alter the christening dress alter the, cuffs on the little jacket and make a bib do you think I'll get all that done in three months? Yeah. Yeah. I should think so. Might do. I know what I've got the find, oh god it's alright, I've just taken a look in here it's like a bomb! Get him to sign his life away. Where's the door? Just in there. You've got a hole in your wall. Yeah, permanent fixture. Do want to put her in the bed now then? No, I I no it's just the erm It's the changing mess. Yes I put the carrycot in there. Oh she's here. Oh yes. Oh yes there's the poppy, it looks nice. Yeah. It's a nice poppy. Alright? Yeah, I don't know whether I can do it all because erm I need some drills and things to make holes for the fitting. Oh do you? Yes. I didn't know you had to make holes. Yes well th the rail on which you mount the mount the erm autovent needs to have holes drilled to take the Oh right. plate fitting erm there is a plate fitted there is a little bracket, that can sits in behind, that you can screw into but you've gotta make the holes originally unfortunately. Oh right. It's a I'm hoping that I can make use of the erm the two holes that are in the window half You never know do you? in the window half and I wish I knew which half this is it's all rather complicated, but I'll see No, it's what I can do I'll go as Have fun. far as I can Have you got a screwdriver? Yes. A small one er is there another size up or does it get too big then? Ooh look there's quite a lot of tools there there was another one of those out near the this Yes, I know. this'll probably do actually. Go on take that. No no no I don't need those. No? No, no no ah? Oh she's gone to sleep after all. Yeah. I don't think there's another, that's smaller isn't it? No this will be alright. You don't need the Philips one? No, no they're Oh, I think I think you've probably got it all. Got these. Thank you. It's a thingy Oh silly I meant to go to Children's World and buy nappies have to do it tomorrow now. That's your freebie. Oh it's here. Telling you how to do it. Oh do you think I haven't I need telling? Ooh I think you might do, don't you? That's erm That's a thingy, it's that that's it. Oh right yes, well I shall have to do some. Mm, you sent sent off for all your Yes, I have sent it but I haven't got anything back yet. No yeah. That's a tiny little card innit? Yes. So that's the small size, yes Yes. these are th the ones you've got on the big ones. Yeah dinkey innit? Mm. No envelope. Oh no no envelope, there no. The first one was a basket of flowers. Was it? Oh Mm which I managed to do. Oh did you? Well I you see when I saw this I thought it was, was quite big holes It's not. but it's not is it it's easy What does it say? Yeah, it's fourteen, it's the Oh. sand it's the same she said, it's just the same. I think you were just frightened off weren't you? At the thought Well I don't know it the way you two do the work it looks so fine that I didn't think I could see it properly. Well it is quite fine, I mean it do does make your eyes ache if you do it for too long. Yeah, I ca I can't do too much at once no well I mean but er Depends on the colours you're having to use really. Well yes we've got light colours so The the worst possible is working with black fabric, that's that's wicked that is. Well yes it would be wouldn't it? It looks lovely though that one, doesn't it? What th the flowers on the black? Yeah. Yes it is nice it's okay if you can do it in daylight, but artificial light is difficult and I used to sit in the car when Charlotte was asleep. Mm. She was went to sleep in the car I used to sit in the car and do it cos the light was good out there. Yeah, it was nice and bright, yeah Is that what Joanie bought her? This? Yes. Yeah Isn't it pretty? It is pretty Yeah. It's just too long the trousers are too long, that's all. Oh. This is what I like this is my favourite at the moment and she looks wonderful in it the dungarees. Oh yes she yes she had those on when you came didn't she? Did she, I don't remember. Yeah, baggy ones aren't they? They are baggy, yes. Baggy dungeys. Yeah, they're lovely. Yeah she had those on. She's er she nice in denim actually. Mm. Suits her It's the only thing I've bought from M & S recently. Mm. Cos, I haven't been impressed. No Is it time? Mm mm. Oh ooh half past three What time did she go off, half past one? Oh, she'll she'll probably be asleep until five now. Oh. Once she goes, she goes. Oh well cos she should really she should go four hours shouldn't she, she's got good jollop well she Yes. seemed to have Well yes, but I mean it's she seems to do the opposite thing to Charlotte, cos she used to sleep in the morning and fidget around in the afternoons and this one fidgets all morning and then sleeps in the afternoon. Yes, well Which is which is quite handy I suppose. And then is she awake in the evening? Yeah. Yeah well that's not so bad as long as you can get her down at a reasonable hour and get to sleep. Yeah well she she sleeps she goes down some time between eight thirty and eleven. Mm. But sh I think what she does she confuses her early and late evening feeds Mm. so they merge as as sort of one solid feed Yeah. all da evening but then like last night see if I know that she's been chomping on and off all night she'll go for four or five hours. Mm. Or five or six hours Yeah. at night. Mm. So and there you are. Mm Makes you uncomfortable though, presumably does it or? Ah no, it's a it just lets down every now and again Mm. and it's sort of well it's not well they do get full that's if she suddenly does longer than Mm. she's been doing. Yeah. Then it's overflowing. Oh is that why you got that out again. That's right. You got your pump out again. Yes yeah well I've got two ounces in the freezer. Oh have you, oh well it's something I suppose. Yes, well if I can do a few two ounces worth I put them all together and then Adam can give her a little bit. Mm. So I can make the dinner or do something useful. Yeah. Cos I don't tend to get the opportunity. No. Cos she starts fidgeting go and hang this lot up I suppose Want to come upstairs? Yes, I'll come upstairs That's a nice bread then isn't it? It is a bit big that's the only problem but the amount of bread we get through I need a big one. Yes, you couldn't put it all in the at once could you Well no no plus the fact that the lid got broken so that Oh that's a shame. Yes dropped by a certain clumsy person around this house unfortunately we've had a lot of breakages. Oh dear. Yeah never mind So Adam said buy something that doesn't break. We've lost loads of glasses. Oh dear. And the lid of the bread bin. Yeah. So and she ca I don't know whether you noticed or she can't make a cup of coffee without spilling it. Yeah, she she spilt it when she put yours down. Yeah. Yeah. She just can't she's incapable of doing that without spilling it. She's a bit of a Jamie isn't she? She's a clumsy clogs that's why I won't let her walk around with the baby if she wants to cuddle her I tell her to sit down and I tell her not to move well she's always tripping over her feet. Mm. I'd rather not take the risk. No that's right. Don't want her to go flying do I? No. Charlotte's been playing hangers. Yeah there's one with things on Look at these hangers you've got. Yeah well they're from all the All the clothes, yeah well they're handy aren't they? Oh yeah I washed all the well not all of them you know all the stuff we sorted out when you up here Mm. did a big wash the other day so they're all ready wo won't be long and the clothes she's wearing now are nought to three months. Mm. And some of them are are a bit short. A bit small yeah. Well I could undo the feet and put socks on her. No you don't want to do that do you really? Or you can save some of these for Suzie. It would save me a few pennies. Mm yes it would save you a few pennies wouldn't it, yes? Well we'll see how we go. I'm sure you've got quite a lot though. Yeah, we've got plenty really. She won't go unclothed that's for sure. No. Plus she's got all her new stuff. Well yes. Where are you? Here. Oh we're up here. You would would you have such a thing as a hand drill and some drill would you? Erm Oh no. Well all that sort of thing are in are in the erm where the wine is. Oh by the in the toolbox thing? In the in the drawers. Oh in the drawers right oh yeah. There's all sorts of bits and pieces out there but Right. I couldn't point you in the right direction immediately you'd have to sort of No I'll get a few things. you'd have to hunt about a bit I'm afraid. Yeah. Do you know where the key is for the Yes, it's alright, it's by the door. Yeah, that's it. It's on the wall. Yes you were going to try and wash some of those that were stained in something strong. Oh I haven't done that yet. You have no it was that they were a bit big weren't they anyway I'm sure we could possibly get it out you could try I suppose. Mm. I was in Woolworths the other day an they've got smocked dresses now, hand smocked dresses. Have they? Well it can't be anything else can it, you can't really machine smock can you? Well I shouldn't have thought so. So I don't know why they bother to put in it No twelve ninety nine they were. It's like tinned food saying no artificial additives cos you don't need artificial additives in tinned food they're trying to make you buy it cos Oh. it sounds healthy. Yeah. Right, that's that lot done, cor it's never ending isn't it? Yeah, it is isn't it Thank goodness for washing machines eh? Absolutely. Don't know how I managed before I had Nigel. Obviously did didn't you? We didn't have a washing machine. Oh look little old hankies with a C on. Still around. Oh dear. Only one. Only one. I got a few flowery ones somewhere. Aren't they lovely with these flowers? Pretty aren't they? Yeah do you like that one? Yeah cor thank you. Oh what's that on the floor. Oh it's Charlotte's. Oh Yes, I leave one in there for her to keep er pulling on and off hangers. Oh I see these lovely. Oh they're mine. Not really Charlotte's need is greater than mine. the rubbish bin there it does look as though you had a bomb hit doesn't it? I know it's awful isn't it? That's all it takes. Yes, well don't have er so much time for tidying up No. when you spend an entire morning just child hanging off you. Oh, I know not when she's doing that. What a horror they drive you mad though, god As soon as you've got you get used to stage with just Charlotte where you can get on and do things an Yeah. she'll play beside you or she'll come and help you or hinder you or whatever. Mm. And then when you all of a sudden you can't do it because there's another. Demanding. I wouldn't bother sweetheart. What are you doing? What are you up to ah? She's trying to if while you're on your feet there's two albums over there. Oh I've got them. Yes ha. We've built up two have we? Oh no, no no We've haven't got erm got ours back yet. What do you mean you haven't got them back you haven't taken any have you? Yeah Dad took Oh just at the last minute, yes when we were leaving. at the last minute, yeah. Charlotte. Who opened the door? We did. Eh? I did. There's a Careful! Careful! ugh! Don't charge. Oh well the tail end that's the tail end of the tape. Tail end yeah. They start about half way down tha oh you've you've seen I've seen I've seen that one. about half way down, well where you are is you. There's me oh well I wouldn't have seen those would I? No, mind Charlotte darling. I've seen that one. Oh there you are that's where you start. Yes yes let's leave that one in there. Charlotte let let Grandma look No. by herself will you? Oh that's a nice one she looks as though she's smiling. No she does smile. Oh look silly smile. That's a silly Oh. No sweetheart let let Grandma look. Let Grandma look darling, she hasn't seen them, you have. I haven't seen these look just a minute, please. There's Dollo. Yes it's your dolly, yes Yeah Grandpa's got your doll. Grandpa's holding your dolly isn't he, funny Grandpa. I or Look it's a picture of Charlotte showing her pictures to Ah oh look Ooh. there's Charlotte. You see Looks as though do you? looks as though you've got a pony tail, that day. I think so oh it's Guy's party. Oh it's Guy's party is it? You were singing songs. Oh there's Charlotte with her pretty dress on. I wanna look. Let me, just a minute let let Grandma look. Shall I look look please? He's with his drum kit. Please? Just a minute darling let Grandma look. Let Grandma look first. Let me see finish these. Oh Toby. There's Toby this is at the zoo was it? Yes it is. Ooh. Ooh elephants. The elephants. That's you again. Oh look at them. You liked the elephants didn't you? Oh look. Look at the elephants. and Guy. There's and Guy, yes. There's Guy kissing Charlotte and there's the hand holding Yes there's some lovely ones of that. Oh. I'm kissing. Is he kissing you? Yes, there's always canoodling. They're so cute together these two aren't you, mm? You and your cousin. Oh there's a big slide The Gammels. I want the big one What's daddy doing? Oh what? What mummy? Oh There's Charlotte cuddling her baby sister look. Mm. It's for you. And she's a bandit. Yes it is, yes. I said yes Why? She's abandoned her hair. Well don don't stick it under there cos it'll get forgotten in fact I'll take it upstairs. I will. Awful pictures of me there. There's you in the snow, isn't it? Mm this is snowy. She's like a little dolly isn't she? Look at in the snow. Yes, that's how Charlotte treats her like one. I don't think Grandma's seen all those. Oh I probably just gave No. you a couple didn't I? Can I see? I see, see I probably just gave you a couple of er Just a minute. photos. Let me see. Can I? Yes, I think I've probably seen those, yes yes I think I have. Oh baby Baby in fish bowl. No I think Charlotte did have them I think I must go tomorrow. Oh yes I know we'll go on Monday we're going to the clinic on Monday I know I forgot when I was there last week, so don't worry she won't die for lack of vitamins. A week without orange flavoured rubbish. do do doo. There. More trouble than it's worth those I want to have a look. No ask Mummy. Well if you go and sit in your chair nicely, you can sit and look at them as long as you look and don't try and take them out They have to be delivered to you, won't they? Have you done a wee wee recently? No. Well you tell Mummy when you need to won't you? Don't you si don't you wet the seat will you? You did that yesterday. Oh that was naughty wasn't it? No, it was an accident. Yeah. Put your on Put that one up there. Oh that looks a white for doing a pee. Oh Is that the book? is that the book?tis isn't it? Aha. I shall go and forget it shan't I? Probably. Do you like looking at those pictures? Singing. Mm? It's Who's singing? Is that singing? Who? Was it you? You singing. Oh what's that? You hold it up and I'll see I can't say what it is unless you show me. Oh it's Grandpa Grandpa. It's a picture of Grandpa is it? Yes. Oh right you've got a button undone. Have I? Mm. Ooh oh that one's come undone as well in there mm No, not for dinner. Oh I I think I shall have to turn this one up a little Dad says it's alright being long cos it makes me look taller well I don't know about that what do you think? Lengthwise. It looks alright to me. Looks alright does it? I think, yeah I think it might look wrong if you turned it up actually. Mm, I wasn't gonna turn it up too much mind you. Wouldn't bother. But I I'm wearing them all a little bit longer, except in the the winter cos I can't can't alter my coat I have got a longer summer coat to wear but the the one I had last year erm all the skirt showed beneath, I couldn't walk about like that. I'll have to wear a long coat. How long's your rain coat? Er what my green one? Er this will show beneath it Don't Oh well it'll match. Yeah, but I wouldn't wear it now I've put it away now but er I've got erm I've got a yellow one that I've had ooh You'll just have to have short length coats when you're wearing longer skirts, you know. Yeah, well I've only got the one I've only got the one erm golly how long have I had that yellow must have had it four years or more I've only worn it about three times I think it's erm a telly mac and it's a yellow one erm and it is a bit longer so all these go underneath it, quite well Oh right. so I shall wear that. Well you'll have to wear it then won't you? Yes quite a nice colour. Oh it's a tummy. Pardon? Oh it's a tummy. Who's tu is it your tummy? Is it your tummy? the blue in it. Pardon? What blue is it? What blue? Well I hope it's not a blue tummy. We is it a cold morning, was it? I want I want . Are you looking of pictures of you and Amy on the bed together Is that what it is? Could be that . You're so sweet with your little sister aren't you? You're a good girl. Is that the face facing in the three picture. That's what Amy's doing isn't it? Looking at face. Looking at that face ugh! Ugh! There's a funny face. Yes look at Amy doing Funny baby isn't she? Is she crying? She does make funny faces doesn't she? Especially when she's about to cry. Mhm. She screws her little face up doesn't she? Mhm. And she makes a lot of noise. Yeah she's got good lungs on her hasn't she? Mhm. Oh so it's it's weighing day again is it Monday? Yes well I'll go fortnightly for a little while then it'll tail off. Mummy, Mummy. Yes, well. Yes darling Are you going to sleep? How often did you have to go with her? Oh no. Oh I went every week to start with. Alright . Is that Adam? No, I don't think so. Oh. Would Adam be home this early? Well if he's not busy but he said he might go fishing. Cos er we've probably parked in his space Don't do that sweetheart Well if he's gone fishing then don't screw them up. he won't be home yet unless he catches his entire entitlement all in one go Oh. which he did last week, it was quite funny. Did he? He got there at four o'clock he had four fish he could catch I think out of the ten for the week cos he caught the others and he'd caught them all by half past four. Oh where's this? Caught four fish I think it's West Clandon or somewhere it's in Surrey it's where his Dad's got he takes out his annual Mm. thingy cos it's his own it's Cos is it a fishing farm sort of place? oh that farm no it's a lake, private lake. Private lake, yeah so the fish can't get away then? The there's only half a dozen people that are allowed annual rights to fish there. I say the fish can't get away then. No. Yes, yes silly. They're allowed to catch ten a week. Oh. And he did last week or the week before. Mm. Which is nice. Mm. You want to say something? Oh you're just hovering are you? Fine. Ooh ooh. Wakey wakey. Come on. I'm awake. Oh. Well pass me the jelly? Mhm of course. When is the erm Could you put it down please? I hate it when Adam does it so I hate it when you do it too, sorry, can't help it. Whose is it? Adam's. Oh. Well he bought it. Oh. When is the the fair, the fair for the dolly is it? Oh end of August. Aha. Oh holding my doll he's holding my doll. Who's that your Grandpa holding your doll? Yes, yes it is. Oh what's happened to that one? Oh several have got er It's probably should be waggling its ears Yes, or several of them have lost their operative parts. Yes the canary's disappeared once, hasn't it? Well we did try and mend it several times, but he's Oh er That's a nice little book isn't it? They're nice little things though aren't they? Yes, they are but I think perhaps she's a little too young for them Down. really I mean the actual content of them is not too young fo too old for her but Where's Grandma? No. Where's Grandma? Oh where she's here. Where, I'm here. And where's Grandpa? Grandpa's in the garden. He's working hard. He's earned his lunch. Mm don't chew that no don't eat it no! Charlotte please put it down now put it down. Now Grandma put it away now. Because that's naughty we mustn't chew books especially not those, not those pretty pictures there's a good girl. I done a wee. Oh you haven't have you? Have you done a wee wee? Oh Charlotte. Oh love why didn't you tell Mummy? Well go on up you get. Get up then, come on. Go on up you get. You're still doing it look come on let's get you on the potty you horror! Come on quick, quick, quick round here. It's here such wet pants just to see, it's probably all gone. Try, come on sit down see if you've got any more Sit down properly come on. No. You've done it all now have you? No. You monster! Charlotte next time you tell Mummy you want the potty right? You listening? You mustn't just sit there and do it love. Mummy. What what's the matter? Mum. Well darling I've just got to clean the chair up haven't I? Oh. You made a bit of a mess here haven't you? You make lots of extra work for your Mum you do, when you do this don't you? When you've got a potty sitting on the floor. That's a special potty too, isn't it? You chose it. Mm? She won't be a problem now she's got nothing on. No. And know how to how to teach her that trousers aren't nappies. Mummy. What do you want sweetheart? Look don't just aha aha aha mhm mhm, I want you to tell me what you want come along. Oh. Pardon? What do you want? You want what? I want pops. Pops ah, wants a Polo pops. Mummy. Charlotte. Ooh ooh. Ooh ooh. Come on I want pops, I want pops ah I want pops pops. Here you are then. What's she barking about? I don't know she's a bad little soul. Ooh you see me draw, mm? Hello or there you go . Go and what? Mm. And don't come and do it up here. Well I think she's done all she needs to do for a little while. Mm. You must try very hard Charlotte. Yeah. Cos when you've just got trousers on it's not the same as a nappy you know? You've got to remember to pull them down. You'll have to remember. Bit late now. I done a wee in my Are you going to do one on the potty now?aren't we? Mm well that's what they ought to do. Yeah Have you done something? Mm yes. Have you? Mm. Yes Mummy. Yes. Ta. I'll do it. Oh mm I was gonna go. Ooh . You been saving it up have you darling? There's a clever girl clever girl You shouldn't really eat Polos like that though should you? I sh I suck. You're not sucking it, you're chewing it crunch, crunch it's not good for your teeth mind you Polos aren't good for your teeth are they? Whether you suck them or chew them. it's stuck. It's stuck well you eat that and then that's it now for the day nothing more. I'm not having a bath. No not yet, no later later you will, won't you? Stand still my sweet there's a good girl How many of the things have you actually done out of Out of what? out of any of these, have you done anything? No. Just the first kit. Just the first kit, yes I shall probably do that there put it in without an envelope looks like there might, I might have so an odd I got some more of the envelopes at home I might have a small one, but er So when's the next one due out then? Oh eleventh of July. July. Mm that's gonna have a have a thingy in it that That. Tis pretty isn't it? Mm. Well it won't have er it'll have the chart for it won't it? Oh the chart, yes. It's very pretty. Mm. Teach your child cross stitch I'll cross stitch charts to pull out and keep. What's that? Er it's a bit of rubbish, I think you want to throw it away, there we are. I catch it for you. Leave your bottom alone. I catch it. You what? I want cut it. Oops. Ooh. I want cut it. What do you want to cut? Well that. I can't see you'll have to pick it up and show me I'm not climbing over the chair to look show me. I won't. Mm? Show me what is it? Come on. I'm not coming on anywhere, I'm sitting down I'm having a rest Mummy's having a rest. I climbing up again. I kno know what you're doing, I can see you ought to be careful cos you'll fall down won't you? Little bottom. Hello You're not supposed to climb on there well Daddy said you weren't to climb on stairs. I'm sitting down. How's Alison doing at the moment? We haven't spoken to them for a while? Oh they're alright, I think. Yeah? She's er doing Still busy? doing a cake for the Faisley fete. Oh yes Jamie's picking up at the weekend, that's right. Mm yes I hear she's got a possibly another wedding cake in October Mm. from somebody who phoned her over two years ago Two years ago. erm she was a friend of Mrs that used to live in Shorebury Park who had a wedding cake made and she kept phoning her up and Alison wasn't making cakes at that particular time. Oh when Louis was born? Yeah, well before sh he was born, she stopped doing them and er she phoned up out of the blue and so said to her, no they live at Bognor I think or something. Bognor? Yeah and they're when they come up to London they're going to Careful! and have a look at the pictures. Ha. So er that was good to remember and she's got another wedding cake in August I don't know where she's got it on the production line. No you didn't like that one whe where you've had it in the water did you? It's a bit sharp isn't it? I don't know Guy liked it and he went in it without anything on. Oh. It didn't hurt him. Mm. So That there's Mummy. Your Mummy's behind you. Or even behind you. Er Hello, I'm here yes, I haven't gone anywhere. I should think that's quite sort of safe isn't it, mm? Well she we to start with she went I think it might of been that cos we put Guy in it I think, that might have upset her. Oh. Because when she first had it, she loved it. Mm. And we pushed her all round the pool but then we bought her a ring, just a ring nice little one an she's fine in that. Mm. But she took a dislike to it for some reason, she wouldn't go in it. Mm. But then that holiday was a bit unusual because she wasn't well all the time we were there really not properly she had that virus that was mm Mm. that was getting at her before we left Oh yes that's right. if you remember she still had it when we came home Mm. she wasn't really very well got it in her ear. Mm and you had the erm The antibiotic the storm stuff didn't you have the storm no? No that was the year before. Was it? When she was six months old, this was last year when she was eighteen months. Oh was it, oh yeah. Right, what do you want? Why? She thinks you're going to No, cos she doesn't know how to hold it properly, to do it it's one of these silly valves that you have to pinch to Oh. in order to get the air in Charlotte you're just going to wear yourself out darling I wouldn't bother do you I do. want it blown up? Do you want me to blow for you? Do you want it blown up? I'll blow it up for you if you want or Joelle will. I think she wi she she like blowing she want to do it. Do you want it to be blown up darling, to play with? Yes. No I blow it. But it I don't think you can darling, you're not strong enough get on with it. Better go and see how your father's getting on I suppose. Yes, ooh dear excuse me early night tonight Amy permitting. Mm Well she's certainly got a had a long evening innings hasn't she? Well hopefully she'll be in reasonable mood when she wakes up. Yes, that's right I'm going to next Sunday as well. Busy lot aren't you? Busy again, yes. Ah. Tomorrow we are the first. It is the first of June tomorrow, yes. Well I've got the committee meeting on Tuesday. When at home? Dress properly. Ah. Come here Charlotte. Have you decided to write to somebody? Don't bite it. Charlotte, I had enough of that okay? What's she done? She want to hit me! I didn't see her hit you I want to hit you sometimes, except I don't. Ooh . I get a sore bottom. Yes, you will get a sore bottom be careful. Put your jumper on Ready steady go, must why why? Wongy wongy wongy wongy wongy wongy wee wee wee wee wongy wongy wongy. Charlotte please now come on get down. Get down or else you'll slip Down! cos you've got socks on. Good girl. I get. It sounds like he's playing with the plates. Playing with the what? Don't climb on the chair with your feet, your socks, come on you'll hurt yourself you sit down or get off! Off an Oh right. That's a funny body for doing on. Yeah . Oh hello. Hello. How are you doing? Well I've got the window back in and working with the hand thing but I need drills to drill holes for the fittings and it really Mind your fingers. so I'll just have to try and remember to bring an electric drill up an see what I can do but it's all working. Thank you. And left it on the second hole. Have you got to go and find What are we all er what er? I cut it if off there. Well I heard the was high but that was ridiculous. I climb up there. Do you want another drink before you You don't climb up there sweetheart. depart? Mm I expect we could do another one couldn't we Dad? Wll yes I reckon the old workman's earned a cup of tea don't you? Of? I'm coming too. I tell you what else I've done, I've also no stay there sweetheart, don't I'm listening. walk around like that ooh. What else have you done? I've probed that fruit tree off the glass Oh right. and Come here sweet, cos I've generally cleaned up I've pulled up some nettles and got the access to the greenhouse a bit better it's a bit pooey in there innit? Come here ooh ow. A bit pooey! In the do in the greenhouse there's some dog erm droppings in there. In the greenhouse? He's not going in there now it's are you sure it's not foxes or cats? It smells like dogs actually. Does it? Oh. Oh it can't be. But the door was ajar you see, I've shut it now Probably foxes. and I've got the windows open so Probably foxes mm. Mm. Foxes? Is the actual visual visible. There is one it looks like a dog's made. Oh Jessie filthy animal! Only me Mum. Not like her to do that. Well I suppose if it was raining one night she might have done. Mummy Mummy Mummy. Oh how disgusting! Mum Mum, Mum. Oh Charlotte please, stop whining. What do you want now Aye bare bottom ah ooh ooh dear, that was a hard one was it? Was a teeny bit wasn't it? for the geese. Want erm I want pops again I want pops again. Oh it's a spotty bum. You're what again? You want to go on your pot again? Ooh. I don't think that's what you said was it? No. Do you want to go on your potty? No. What did you sa oh she said Pops. Mm yes. Pops is Polos. Mm where are you going with those? Don't worry. I gone. Oi! I like that. That's cute isn't it? Yes, cos that's alright that's a good girl there. Thank you very much it's much appreciated. Well I've looked at it with a conscience cos I took the glass out originally. You don't have to have a conscience. Well yes I mean Well it's only slipping wasn't it before. No it had the glass missing it was broken we put Oh. a new piece of glass in it. He got a piece of glass for me didn't he? Oh that's right yes Yeah. and never put it in. Well I was gonna try and get the nuts and bolts because they'd gone, however I noticed Stand up, stand up. what I what I've in fact done Come on then is that the is the the pink brackets No, No, I'll pick you up. that hold the arm on There. R E the Where? window brackets You know what that , that's for the top bit, up the top aye come on and Grandma's chain and little pendant. the pink bits the bit that fits onto ridge, they've got three screws in each piece but they only need two to hold them, so I've taken the centre one out of each one and used it to do the Come on back in my pocket centre pocket. the one that's got them missing so they've got they've got to work haven't they? Thank you. The er the other have got Eh!nosey. the other ones have got to be placed as well. And you've got one too. But I will do it. You've got one too. What? And you've got one too. Yes I've got one too, yes darling yes we're all the same. We're all the same. It's a Yes we're all the same dear. It's a nice luxury to have Yes don't undress me, there's a good girl. It's a nice luxury to have two but you only Where's your buttons? really need one one that you by hand and the other one that adjusts by the temperature you've set Mm I'm buttoned the other side, now I don't want it undone don't want my buttons undone. Don't mess my hair up there's a good girl. I want cuddle. Oh Charlotte, stop please I can't There's always the danger you see that you at the moment darling, Mummy's back's hurting She can't, she can't cuddle you at the minute. Down you go. Me me me. Down we go cos you're heavy girl ooh yeah . there you go. might might upset the What's that? Oh it was you. Who did you think it was? I'd no idea something falling over what's that? Save our zoo really? I think they ought to be in the wild. What the zoo? No the animals. Out the way lovey Out the way. Yeah well you couldn't put them back in the wild now. No, that's it What do you think you're gonna do young lady Bred in captivity. you're not gonna get some more dog tins? No, dog tins are down here. Oh right oh right. some banana shut the door come along Come along. shut the door come on Oh no we don't have biscuits. Possibly. Ooh no no ooh but it's nearly tea time No it's not no it's not. I can . You can have a biscuit if you like. Where's a drink? Has she got a drink knocking around somewhere? Want a biscuit, down! Oh. Well give her the biscuits then. Down, down, down left. Thank you. What're you doing? No, there's a silver tin just there. A silver tin. Oh. Out out out out out. Come on out of the way, come on. I want that. Out, now let's see what we can find for you, oh. That's that one. Oh oh. Have you got another one of those? We've got some more in the tin. What have we got here? That's mine Yes, well that was Dad's. Ooh Yes, let's put that there and you this one in there. Ooh only one right one good girl You've got . Somebody's been eating a lot of those haven't they? Mm. Would you like biscuit? I said somebody's been eating a lot of those. Would I like a biscuit? Plain in the sides and milk in the middle. I didn't have them dar no no there's no milk. Oh cos going down the sides, is it? That's it thank you. Oh, Which, oh they're the plain are they? Mm. Perhaps I'll have two, cos I'm a pig cos I'm a pig. Mm? Cos I'm a pig. Are you? I'll have two. Do you need any more, anybody? No, no that's Dads' and that's mine I didn't know you . I don't normally but we went to Sainsbury's and they didn't have any milk. Oh. Cos it was rejected apparently for Oh. too high temperatures. Oh. So they didn't have any at all. Oh I see. Hello. So I sent her off to Tesco's. Mm. Right go and sit down. Mm there's yours Dad, in the middle. Thank you my love. Hello. Who are you writing to? Hello. Who are you writing to? My God Godmother. Chocolate biscuit face. Your cod mother. Godmother. Aren't you? Chocolate biscuit face. Hello, I thought you weren't going to. No Jessie you can't do that. Bonjour Jessie Oh no. Hand. Jessie's don't have chocolate biscuits. No they don't it's bad for her diet. He won't Jessie, no. I wonder if he's caught anything? No Jess good girl. We did our of golfing on Wednesday. All alright is it? Yes yes we found a few flowers an No more Jessie. No more Jessie, no that's all for Charlotte that. Lovely little path put that in the book, get it to Janet tomorrow. Over to there no. So it's turn next week. No. Have you written it up yet? No. No not yet. No I suppose you want me to put something together? Well I'm quite capable of writing what I've seen you can do it if you like. No. What did you see? Don't really mind. Oh we saw the grass had been flattened in places, but I should imagine that it's probably by animals. Well we've seen some evidence of foxes erm What what's the evidence? Droppings. Well droppings foxes' droppings are often distinctive. Bit difficult. But they're not like dogs' erm what do you say? What did you just Charlotte! What do you say? Burp. No you don't say burp, you say pardon me. Mm, I should think so. Powerful was it? Oh yeah. Oh Charlotte. Has she done one today? I don't know has she? Yeah. Oh. Oh. She's probably about to. Hello. Hello. As long as she doesn't do that on the chair. Mm I don't think Grandpa wants you on his knee, dear. Not if you're gonna do that I want you covered up before you sit on my knee. Or house trained whichever is the My bottom. My bottom. Yes I think you want to sit on your potty. Yes, I think you want to sit on your potty too. No. You're making noises aren't you? You don't want more biscuits. You don't want more biscuits, no course not. No. You don't want You don't want your bottom ah You're not having any more biscuits. Broom. Wow . Careful love. Whey! That's from my bottom. Pardon? Swimming po . You take that in the swimming pool don't you? We go swimming next week didn't have swimming this week did we? You know, roll over on her side. No she'll just tip. No but it's it's actually got holes in for her legs so fair amount of her is underneath. Mm even quite a lot of water inside I should think too. That's my arm. What's that? A tie that's a tie. Well by the time she's finished this course she should be confident to hold on to things in the water, you know Mm. like a float or something. Mm. It's a lellow I mean a yellow tie. Lellow? Lellow. Lellow tie. Yes, you can speak normally to her she wi she will understand. Don't pull it, no no ugh. You don't want to choke Grandpa do you? Expecting Nigel to be home from work early today or is he He said he'd be home by five. Oh. He's gone to her he was going today. Can you do that? Horstead Fens Mm. Gets about doesn't he? Mm. Do that don't do that. I haven't seen him for a while actually. Have you not? No, five weeks I suppose. Really? Mm, we saw them the Saturday after we w Amy was born. And that was the weekend they came over to collect the and Dong. erm Eh? No they had that before. Oh do they? Oh. The word processor. Bong. What was the name of it Amstrad? Amstrad. Yeah. Oh no they came over to er they just came over to see us well see us see a certain of new arrival. Yes. And as she's five and a bit weeks old, it's five weeks Mm. cos she was only a bit then. That's right. You tell me what's the name of er it's Traf Trafalgar Square, there's er Nelson. Yeah Nelson not Napoleon Trafalgar yes you know how to spell it? please, squeeze it. You'll squeeze it. I like Trafalgar Square. What are you doing? Oh oh! Charlotte, up you get please What are you doing there? on your potty. Come on. Go and sit on your potty Quick. or do you want a nappy on? Quickly. Charlotte do you want a nappy? To the potty, quick. Potty or nappy which would you prefer? Come on. You speak to Mummy please. And don't climb on the chair Charlotte. Come on get down, get down there's Come on darling. a good girl. Mm? Go and sit on your potty. It's alright I'll just keep I'll just keep my eye on her Where are you going? I've got a feeling she won't Oh no. unless she's got a nappy on. Poor torn it to bits cor. I don't well I could be wrong she might do it on the spot. Don't move, don't any more he'll get oh he's got a now. Probably just Oh it's not in properly don't worry. it's isn't it? Just a minute sweetie. Do do do do don't come in here. There you are. Well say hello to them for us cos we haven't seen them for a long time. Yes I will I will will. Have you had an accident on the chair? Yes. Yes. Oh. We should see him soon he was doing some er curtain tracks for us. Mm yes. Oh I can on my potty I can on my potty. So erm going to change that then? Yes we will have to get some curtains that fit in the bay go Oh they're going round the bay are they? yes. Which , which colour? I don't know. I haven't decided yet. You had those you a you had erm you have ordered some curtain and you don't know which colour. No I haven't ordered any curtains,cor curtain rail. Curtain rack rail. Oh. What you hang the curtains on. Oh right. Nigel's going to come and fit it cos he works for a company who makes and he's doing them in every room. Is he? Charlotte will you come here please? Charlotte. Charlotte. He's doing all the rooms for you is he? He is yes we're getting a text electric one in the dining room but the rest we're paying for. Er run. You ran yes. Where are you? I can't get in there. Well they'll all be erm they'll all have cords, you see Mm. which is nice. Yes. Can't get in there. Can't you get in there? Why not? So you'll do away with those then will you? Your head's too big. Suppose so. What is it for, Trafalgar Square? What is it what? What is it for Trafalgar Square? What do you mean, what is it for? What? Erm Trafalgar Square is it a memorial? Well Nelson Battle of Trafalgar. Yes, it is a memorial to the Lord Admiral Lord Nelson. And the battle of Trafalgar. And the battle of Trafalgar. Not Napoleon cos this this one thought it was Napoleon at the top of the column. Oh no, no. What was that, oh. It's alright. Don't do that. Does Nanny needs to sit on the pot. Come here love, I think Mummy needs to sit down. Yes, dolly on the pot. Don't you? Get on your potty. Yes. Well where's Dolly's potty here it is. Here's dolly's potty here. Here. Here's dolly's potty Here's dolly's Oh. Oh dear we're in his space. Come on we'll go before he We'll go. before he sees us. What you mean there you'll go before he sees you. I expect he's had to go off the road. Oh, no no it's alright, it's that man's gone now. Oh has he? Yeah tha tha Well we'll be off anyway. Yes. Ah you're not going to Yes do do do hello Hello Who's this? Hello. Hello. Hello Hello. Hi there. Hello. We're just off . You can move back. You can move back now A big van parked you've got to get out. Ah? I said first of all you've got to get out. Why what have you done, you've penned him in have you? Deliberately I should think. No he's got an inch and a half. Must have a foot at the back so er what more could he want, you know? Hello. Hello, alright there. Hello. How are you? Alright Thank you. Alright. Daddy, Daddy, Daddy Grandma, Grandpa Right then. Grandpa. love. bear. Speak English Charlotte. What did she say? Speak India. No not speak India! Oh no. Oh goodness gracious me. Come on, you come down, we don't trust you up there. Why has everything suddenly become she you've only been doing this the last few days. Tis a funny girl. Everything is it unless it's a person. And that's he or she. Right? He for a boy and she for a girl and it for anything. But I don't know I think But you don't know where it is, you don't know where it is there's nothing you can do about it. Well look, you've lost the needle? Yeah, be careful what you say. Yes. When were you last using it for knitting or for your tapestry? It's probably it's probably stuck Toby can you turn it off please? in a piece of er knitting. Can you turn it off please Is this your question? Come here let's have a look. Do we need to have the sound on this? Er it's complicated no . What do you want to know? Oh mince, I've got to get it out of the freezer Bye. Can I listen? Is this disturbing you? To the radio, of course, quiet. Is there a lot of difference between fishing a in the evening? I don't know, I've not fished there in the evening, yet. That's true. This'll be my first attempt I would imagine that it won't make a lot of difference I could be wrong. Have you now learnt how to do this tying or do you have to go and see Terry every time? Erm I think I've learnt how to do it, it's fairly straightforward but er him having tied the leader on for me I won't have to go back to him anyway for quite some time. So you weren't concentrating when you were watching with him? I don't think so,th the point is I'm not going to be called to tie a knot like this again for maybe three weeks and then by then I'll make things up it was really more for convenience than sitting down trying to work it out myself so you know . Is there not a book of angling knots? It means there must places doesn't it? No he's just practising at the moment lovey he's practising his swing but I agree if he stood that distance he wouldn't be able to hit the ball would he would you. It wouldn't reach it would it? He's right in the middle of the fairway though, it's a nice looking shot he's got to play isn't it? Mm. Oh this one isn't so nice with all this sand. Oh look at all that sand. Ooh well that was good wasn't it? Mhm. Clever boy. Clever. There we are and he'll go with the man who was practising his swing what's the matter with him now come on get on with it. Come on get on with it, ooh. Now that's Mark . Is it? How did you know? Cos I know what he looks like it'll be like looking at you and saying that's Toby cos I know what you look like as well do you think? Yeah you mean he's an old friend of yours. Him? Ha. Oh he's a great friend a great pal. That friend? That friend, yeah yeah I know all the golfers, Toby I know Severiano Ballesteros Mm. Mm oh he's taken a big chunk of the grass. Did you see that? Ooh that wasn't a bad shot was it? No, he got that one. Ooh just stayed on the green he's not pleased with it. Ooh. Why isn't he? Cos he thinks he should have done better than that and he's right he should of done better. Is that Ian Woosnam? No. Well anyway if you know Well it looks like him. all the golfers you erm you'll be glad that one once Absolutely cos they're all personal friends of mine. You shouldn't tell stories like that. I'm telling stories I don't know any of them. It's like telling Joelle you have Paul Simon's No you're not. That wasn't me Well you told her. You did tell stories though. I did. Your uncle tells stories sometimes What do only for fun. do Only for a bit of fun that's why How's your chin is it alright now? Chin? Yep. Mm? What you hurt yourself? No Toby didn't hurt himself, who hurt you? Dad, my Dad. What did he do? He didn't do it on purpose though did he? No. What did he do? Erm when we were picking up the trunk off erm Uncle Alan who's on on the beginning of the fishing Oh right yeah. my Daddy tip it over my skin Ooh. and pinched it. Ooh I bet that was nice. And then we got a bit of plaster out of Uncle Alan's medical bag Yeah. didn't we? yeah. In the car and we put a little bit of plaster on and everything Yeah. was alright wasn't it? You alright now? But there were a few tears at the time weren't there? Oh dear. Just a few. Never mind. Shall we go and see if Charlotte's ready. Well when she's she'll come in. She'll come in, sweetheart. Joelle will bring her in. She won't just stay in the car, she won't want to stay in the car when she wakes up cos that's too boring. If she's not in in about five minutes then we'll go outside anyway, alright? Okay, you count five minutes. Well I'm not going to count we'll make a we'll make a guess alright? Why don't you give her till half past three? Well that's a quarter of an hour it's a long time. Well it's alright it's not that long I suppose it's a long time when you're six. Mm well even five. Or five and a half even. Five and a half, that's right he is almost exactly five and a half aren't you? We were talking about this in the car cos he's five and six months. Got somebody else sticking his finger up his nose as well. Can I have a tissue? I should think you could have a tissue. Here you are. Come to aunty your aunty Trevor, your aunty Carol. Aunty Carol. Aunty Adam. You blow your nose. You go prurgh That's the boy that's it all done? Can't get much out could just find a bogey. Blow hard. Well don't squeeze your nose for the second time or it won't come that's better that's it. That's it. Well done there alright? Now you can go and put it in the bin. There we are. Or in your pocket. That's right you give it to Dad, give it to Uncle Adam okay that one's all used up now so you can use another one if you need it, alright? Now it's three minutes. Is it three minutes, no it's four minutes. Four minutes. Four minutes. Patience Toby You see. you have to learn to be patient. You'll need patience for fishing won't you? Yeah. Mm? Good things come to those who wait or he who waits or what is the pa I don't know. Oh Adam? Eh? Uncle Adam. Uncle Adam. Mm? Do you prefer to call me Uncle Adam or Adam? Adam. Well you call me Adam then, alright? That's a a special treat. Yeah. Alright you can call me Adam whenever you see me now alright? Yeah. You don't have to call me Uncle Adam at all. You call him Uncle Adam when you don't see him. Alright? Yeah. And if anybody says you should be calling him Uncle Adam you can say no I don't need to because he told me I didn't alright? Is that fair enough? Yeah. You don't call me Uncle Adam and I won't call you Uncle Toby. Cos you're not my uncle are you? No. Ooh and and don't call me uncle five either. I won't call you uncle five no. call you uncle six didn't I? I don't want to be called uncle six why not? No. Because my name isn't six is it? No. No. Could we erm I don't want to be called discourage the feet on the uncle five. Can you keep your feet off the chair thank you good you sit over there there we are. Ooh ooh ooh ooh ooh ooh. Do you want another drink or you alright at the moment? I'd like another drink. What would you like? Ooh how many? Three and a half minutes. Three and a half now What would you like? count three and a half. Are you interested in a drink or not? Erm yes may I Stop changing the subject please. You'd like some lemonade. In fact, no. In fact In fact no. Oh. Yeah. In fact what would you like? Nothing! Nothing! Oh you don't have to have anything. Nothing. Nothing at all? Nobody's forcing you to drink Toby. Nothing at all. Nothing at all no no at all. Nothing at all at all nothing at all at all. Nothing at all no. You'll have to check the grass before you go running around out there. Mhm. I shall go and de-umpty before we start. I think there's one just by the That's an interesting word for them isn't it? De-umpty. Erm there's one just as you go out of the french window. I wonder how many people they have talking about dog crap. Well there's already half a tape full of Charlotte's bodily functions. How much now? Accidents on chairs Three minutes. and things. Three er Three er That's the longest two minutes I've ever seen. It's getting shorter than ever. It is It is getting shorter yes Yes it's just taking a long time. You said three and you oh yeah yeah you three last time you said three and a half. Three and a half that's right. I did didn't I? It's now about two and three quarters. No it isn't. Yes it is. No it's four minutes now. No it's three. No four, look there's four minutes to go. Anyway do you think any of these companies that you've No you said three and a half. Did I? Eh? Yes. Are you sure? I'm sure. Oh. Last time you said three and a half. Did I? Oh it must be three minutes now then. Yeah. Oh right, okay Sorry, what did you say? Do you think any of the erm companies that have done business with Japan would have any such pictures? I honestly don't know. Would you be prepared to ask them? How long now? Er I know who would but then unfortunately I think I've thrown their stuff away. Who's that? The erm How long now? text text How long now? Yeah. Adam, how long now? You've thrown that big catalogue away? I think so yeah. Oh dear. How long now? It may still be upstairs Oh in the roof? Mm. If we've still got it that's where it'll be. Erm yeah but that's out of date isn't it? Now three minutes I told you it was three minutes didn't I? Yeah mm. Didn't I tell you it was three minutes? Isn't that out of date that catalogue? Yeah. Yeah , but I mean if you told them which one you want they may well still be able to get it for you It is three minutes isn't it? Yeah that's right. Well we could always tear the your watch. tear the regular pages out of the catalogue and fax them to Jack couldn't we? Is this them? No smack Toby's bottom. Eh? minutes. Oh do it again again. Ha? It might be getting sore. Hang on a sec lovey I want just want to ask er Carol something. You could remove the pages from the catalogue and fax them over to Jack you see well I don't know if we can get it there. No to see if it's the sort of thing that Oh I see what you mean yeah well we know what he wants. Look at this hello hello. Hello hello. That's hello in mouth shut language. Is it? Hello hello. How do you say can I have a twizzle stick please? Can I have a twizzle stick please? Can I have a twizzle stick please? Is that right? N no. Can I have a twizzle stick please? What's a twizzle stick? Can I have a twizzle stick please? Yeah it Is that better? Yeah. Good . what about What is a twizzle stick? I don't know. You telling stories are you? Me would I do a thing like that? Well you you sometimes tell stories for fun don't you? Stories Keeping you up are we? Ooh blimey, yeah. It looks so easy doesn't it? Ha Do they never get interfered with when they go into the crowd but are or are people very good? Normally they've been pretty good. Not a lot of point having a fence there they were climbing over it. It's very wide the all the people or most of the people that go to these things are either all players already themselves Now how long Ad Adam? or they've got relations that are, er two and a half minutes. After a watch. How long is it? How long is it? What minute now it's two and a half minutes. It said two and a half. Oh well it's only just near now will it? You will a you will Adam. How long is it to go now? I've already told you two and a half minutes. Three. Wasn't that long. It it will say Up you get. Ask it once more. No cos I'm getting bored of asking it. Please? I'll ask it then. Alright you ask it. How long is it? Seventy five minutes. Seventy five ! Two hours. It says seventy five minutes I'll ge I'll ask it again How long is it? Three and a half minutes. What? What did it say? I think it said three and a half minutes. How long now? Two and three quarters. Two and three quarters . How long now? Six minutes. Six minutes The more you ask the longer it gets, Toby. How long now? Eight minutes. Eight minutes. If you stop asking it'll get quicker. How long now? Twenty five minutes. Five minutes no more asking. Six minutes. Six minutes When that hand goes there then that's when we're going outside. What's that? I think he's . Careful! Are you on m No I'm not. You will hurt yourself if you fall about won't you? Mm. Mm. Why don't you just sit down somewhere? Ah. Or go He's lying down on the floor having a nice lie down aren't you Toby? Goodnight then. Yeah. Yeah. Goodnight. I'm not going to sleep. Why not? He's just gonna have a lie down aren't you? Why aren't you going to have a sleep, I'd like to have a sleep. Had to didn't they? Never mind too late now. Pardon me. I'll think about it. You look like you need a sleep. No I don't. Well you're yawning away there. Mhm. Ah ah ah ah ah ah. No no you do yours. Only cos you did. No it's because you did. I yawn now anyway cos I'm tired. Hiya! I've been up all night. Well I suppose if I thought about it I could er put Amy in the hall and go and do some . Could do. If I could be bothered to. That's the problem. Yes it is isn't it? It's a big problem. Oh come off it. What? How long does it take you to do throw a shot. Well with all those people breathing down his neck it's probably put him off Is there anything you're going to want taped while you're out? What this evening? You're still going are you? Well it depends what Toby wants? I don't know mm I'm full of surprises Well I don't think we need to add anything to that climbing frame do we? Probably not. Maybe we'll get the scramble net at some point. Yeah. Not cheap though are they? Another forty quid or something. Yeah oh good it's that film on again. Mm? That film on again Well and truly into summer now aren't we, there's nothing on the television at all. I'll just get Charlotte some squash. Squash? Orange, lemon and pineapple squash Really? Well it's only recently that she's started drinking orange juice I know But she hasn't liked it at all. That Agatha Christie's one of the new ones No they're repeats. This is absolutely nothing to rush home for at all is there. I thought I recognised er the look of the film you were looking at just now Half a Sixpence, yeah. Yeah I thought it was on a couple of weeks ago oh no it was the whatsit millionaire wasn't it? Have you had enough now little girl mm? No?changed brands of coffee or something they're horrible I don't know what she's doing different alright lovey, okay shush shush shush shush showing her little heart out isn't she? Who's Catherine? That's not very nice you know. Oh oh. You be careful if you're looking at photos please. What can I do, what can I do she's a woman. Say stop it. Yeah, you'll have to learn about woman Toby they're a funny bunch of creatures. Look at your Aunty Carol doesn't she look funny creature? Yeah. you came with. There. I think your dad's arrived Toby. Ooh is your daddy here? Really? I think I just heard a car door shut do you wanna go and open the front door for him? Yep, there he is can you reach it? Can you reach? He's here, he is here, he just walked up the You go and tell me if you can reach the front door. What a greeting. Oh that sounded like Brian silly Grandpa. Silly Grandpa's got your dolly. I did. Hello folks. Good day. Hello. How are you? Alright? Alright? Here you are I bought er I couldn't resist that. Oh go Oh yeah. What is it? We've got give that a whirl haven't we ah? Or a bottle I'll pop that in the fridge thank you very much. Okay. Oh Happy birthday What is it? to you. Jacob's cream. Got myself a bottle and got him a bottle. And Toby's been a little angel this afternoon. Wonderful have you got a typewriter here do you think I could use Worn himself out er Have we? I've got a feeling we haven't Oh we've got a really ancient Adler Oh. up the in the roof I think it is still. It's in the roof, or in the garage? No it's in the roof pardon? Do you need it down? It's in the roof, the roofery. Er if you can wait till next week I'll get it down. No it's alright, I'll er I'll sail over and do it there. Mummy, mummy. Yes love. What? What is it? Now. What do you want? We've got to find out what mummy's doing whether cos I got the mummy's which means Do you want to give her a ring? No? I will give her a ring in a few minutes, but suspect I suspect that you and daddy have to have a bath together. Ooh. That sounds exciting. What does that mean you get for supper? I don't know we'll have to what I can freeze won't we? We should do erm I could do the custard pudding I could do the dessert and you could do the savoury. Alright and what are you going to do for dessert? He's just let let the cat out of the bag there didn't you? Do a pudding or we could do erm custard. Oh I don't know Custard. Could you tell me how you do it. Toby Toby you I'll tell you what if you want daddy to really want his pudding . Stirring? Best stirrer in the business. I What Broule? What? No Broule I bet that's that's a That's a bit a bit sophisticated . just custard. How do you do your custard? Cos it's a very nice taste. Aha I Did you really make custard? nutmeg on Oh I didn't realise. top. Okay? What did you have to make your custard with? Nutmeg on top. Yes. Two eggs Yes. and I used erm very ni erm up to three in milk Right. on my own measuring jug Right. and erm and then I whip some more Mhm. well erm in fact I put a bit of erm flavouring in Right. and then when I I put the mix in in the oven hot so I put the nutmeg on top grated nutmeg Sounds good. Although okay? Although although So I make the although although, except the Yes, mix. And then you pour it into the bowls although oh what's although in French? and you put them in the oven do you? No. How do you do it then? Then you erm Wha what's the context? put you put a fla you put erm nutmeg and erm vanilla A flavouring vanilla, right okay. Oh I can't think. After that okay? It's a real one none of this custard powder job, Honey can you remember what although is in French? Real custard. Although? Although. Erm My brain's gone. Holiday that's one. Although a lot of the world's natural re resource like all come from this port. Right all Although you . Wouldn't text deal with it? Well I suppose. ha ha ha he he. Have a look in the dictionary. Is that right, I think so. Ugh! Have have a look in the dictionary and There is a word for that but I I can't think what it is. Have a look and br bring the dictionary in and we'll tell you the right one cos there'll be several probably. Alright, alright. Alright. Tilly tilly tat. Had we'd better go back hadn't we? Yeah. Right I'm off. Do do do do do do do do do. Now where's your glass and your video? I will see you in due course. When you see Alright? He's going fishing. I'll find them. Cos I'm not coming back again. I'll see if my video's on the hall table . It is with some photos. There's some fishing there my Yep it is my glass is Right see you on the slide. when I see you, alright? Yeah. Here are here dad. Right okay. Bring the photos then Toby as well. There's nothing like a in the family is there? Yeah. Only one? Right. Do you want me to sew this back on for you babe? No it's alright I'll Mhm. I shall say hello to my friend Yeah. I can't wake her up or else I shall got shot. No she's been awake and asleep and awake and asleep all day today there's no pattern today. Right. Brian there's some photos there I don't know whether Toby's picked them up or not. Oh right. I'll get them. Are those the the party then? The party and the do and whatever Oh yes oh right Got them all? Charlotte will you leave the money alone please honey could you put it out of reach please, love. I'll get it. Dad I'm bored. Right okay then Say bye bye Toby. oh actually I need the Bye. Do you? Charlotte Bye. Charlotte come here. Come here. Bye. bye Charlotte. Charlotte will you come here please love. Charlotte, please. Charlotte go to your dad. Do as you're told. Can I have a kiss? Give Uncle Brian a kiss, come on. Oh dear. Charlotte having a paddy? Oh you want to come and watch don't you? Oh yes, say bye bye don't we. Yes it's alright, it's time go, she want's to come and watch you go. Oh I see Well She doesn't like anybody to go without her say so. It's a bit too difficult for you to blow up isn't it sweetheart? Do you want me to blow it up for you? I don't know what you're doing playing with that Goodness me! What a pair of lungs. Er lady I think. Are you going to sleep now little one mm? After all that milk you look pretty sleepy. What are you trying to do? Don't squash it. Blow a gasket? He's nearly done it look isn't he clever no don't do that love. Charlotte leave him Charlotte! You miserable child. Now the dog's joining in, oh that's wonderful. I laugh doggy doggy doggy dog. She doesn't like things that blow up does she? ah. Oops oops hello Jess all these blown up things all round the house no no no no no Charlotte don't hit the dog, that's it you cuddle Jessie darling in your chair in your chair go on move I don't know why she wants to play with that that's for crawling around with you don't need to crawl any more Charlotte. I don't remember this being as much air as this in here. Oh Charlotte! I wish you wouldn't do that that's Charlotte let daddy blow it up. It's not nice darling please stop doing it. Good girl There, all done what are you doing? Don't bite your nails. There's no more. Don't burst it. Oh little girl don't cry don't cry petal there you are. There we are. Ah little one. Did you say thank you daddy? Thank you Daddy. That's alright Charlotte can you pull your trousers up at the back, they're a little bit falling down good girl. Droopy drawers. Good girl and what's your leg doing up here? Mm. Ha your trouser leg. Standing next to the other one. Can I help come here come here. Doesn't matter does it? One leg up and one leg down. it's more bits, more bits and more bits to cut. Pardon? Is she sleeping? Well she's just vaguely dropped off I'll have to see how long it lasts. we want, you want Very funny morning. You've got a biscuit. No way, if she comes running in here and says, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I had no idea, she certainly keeps much . Is that the breasts? Mm. No, I think I'll have a bit Oh sorry. Hold on let's, let's try and have a guess. Erm, Charlotte how much do you think? Twelve pounds. Mm. Fourteen pounds. Mm. Two stones. So just one for you then all the rest to Charlotte, that right? So that was , hold on, eleven. Two, four. What was she be born, ten? Ten fourteen and a half. Ten fourteen and a half, and when was that, two weeks ago, yeah? Two weeks. Two weeks ago, cos that adult slightly or the children slightly. Let's say Most turn the light on in there. Yeah. Said, I just said, get it from the erm Eleven, seven . Yeah, yes. Eleven , seven. And a bit more. Eleven, nine. Try twelve. Twelve pounds,. There we are, you go back to your nice kind mummy. The way she looks, she's about to wakening so Hello, can I have a little, god my , more than twelve pounds,, or you more than twelve pounds? You are. See to that , I can see Can you ? Yeah. You cheeky monkey. I like . Ooh, ah. Are you home because you're home or are you going fishing or No, I'm home is always home. What's all this? Soaps, no it's alright your dad's taken it, oh Basil going to call again, this all happened when I was out. what, what for? I dunno no. He'll ring this evening. This isn't new instructions for Wednesday morning. Call it number thirty, Andrew. Bork. Banker. Borker his name is. Borker, who what's. Who works . Who works for Radio One . That's who own the property. Oh that's good, that's what I want. His gonna show you round both of them. Ah that's great. Because she can't get there. Good I'm pleased about that, so I didn't really want somebody coming all the way down from the West End cos I'm I, I'm what I would call a buyer, I'm only going to be a buyer if I can get money from somewhere that I don't know you know what I mean. Well I don't, I don't want to waste somebody's time, be wasting it. Mm, no, I know what you mean Can we draw? I can draw ma? You can draw if you like, yes darling. Right, Children's World, fifty, sixty eight quid, oh that'll be the a South Afri a Yes , do you like to put those in the tin. That was a request from Charlotte, she's been demanding chocolate biscuits. What? are you going to interrupt my piano lesson tonight aren't you?, she's timed her feed wrong today. come and talk to her daddy. Do you reckon? Aren't you? You want to come and talk to your daddy? Do you think she will? Maybe. I don't think her daddy will be able to talk to her if she's hungry, somehow, will you Do you want daddy to talk to you? Oh, look at her face. Put that lip away. Poor cat . You've had a nice afternoon haven't you? Oh,. You think it's funny don't you? Tell your daddy what you've been doing this afternoon. What you been doing today? Erm Where did you go? Erm,Park, I went whoop . Did you? Silly car . Yeah . Where else did you go? Went in a car in did you? Yeah. Where else did you go my darling? Where did you go and take half an hour over choosing your books? Oh. Where did you go? I think somebody's in a silly mood. Did you go to your library? Yes. And a , and I want . Did you find lots of nice books? No, I . Go find the books and show me. They're in the kitchen darling. Show me your books. I don't know . They're in the kitchen, Joelle will give them to you if you go and ask. Go and find your books and show them to daddy, come on. Yes. I got it Oh you've been to have you? Mm, did you . Sweetheart I wouldn't of known what to buy. Is the leader just a leader or are there several different types? Well as it happens, this . Your This, do this. Do what? I want Polos. Well you can go on wanting you've just had a biscuit piglet. I wanna eat it, I want Polos. Charlotte please no tantrums. I want Polos. In a minute love , what?. I wasn't thinking about that, I was thinking about the way you were walking Are you talking to yourself? So you're going to have to go poppet. Mm, no. You ask your mum. Can't you have, can't you find a book? Can I have Polo? Can she have Polo? Sorry. Yes, alright. Where, where are they? They're in the larder on the shelf right in front of you, about nose height, or somebody's nose height, I don't know which or not, but they're right in the middle of the shelf. They're taking the piss. Come and sit down, come and sit down. Which one you want? Mm, that one. Why did you take so long to choose your book Charlotte? Because she, oh she talked to a giraffe, you no that's a big giraffe in there. Oh she talked. Yeah she talked to her. Are you listening? Mm. Mm. Edgar, Edgar, er was a tractor,, she , I she's trapped. Ask her if What? My truck. My truck has lost what? Has lost his trunk. Trunk. Trunk. Right. What's that his trunk? I've no idea. Can you show me the words Joelle? T You show me words Joelle, my trunk she sobbed has lost it , ah it's a poem. Is it? Hester felt a proper , my truck she sobbed has lost it . Oh right. There it is, is . Oh the I , he never seems to be . Joelle it's a poem. You have to read it in a certain way. Da, da, da, da, da, da Da, da, da, da, da, da , da, da, da, da, da, da. Come on I don't know . Da, dud, di, dud, di, duddily, da, did, diddly, dud, di, dud, di, da. , I wanted, you have to be careful the books you get out. You're going to be She showed it and, I said do you want to take it . It's not much use if she's not going to with Oh Charlotte please, don't bite in it. Suck it. Yes, suck it, O K? sucking. What? Sucking. Oh you've got in suctions there have you? Yes. Oh you haven't, I was talking to daddy actually. You want a cat . She's the same little girl and I want my potty. I think so, I want my potty. Jessie wanted to catch all the some of them had big beds and some of them had little beds, Jessie, you're not listening eh? Blowing strange kisses to her mum.. Some of them are big beds and some of them are ,only girl in the world who is , do you think she do that,. What? She and Jessie wants. She probably can't understand Joelle. Oh come on,, her mum and dad always says no. What? So they kept him in for a cat instead, but Jessie wanted a , then Jessie , she could've just love a fluffy white , so . took all of, all of her and burn burn , I'm going to look at . Bird. Bird, what , I'm going to be . I'm going to be lively until I get a cat , if I don't get a cat I'm going to be lively for ever. Oh,on Monday Jessie went to school and the teacher saw her cat suit he shouted so loudly, she jumped, jumped, jumped, jumped up, up on top of the , don't laugh Why? I can laugh if it's funny. and wouldn't come down ever for . On Tuesday Jessie went to a restaurant, cats don't sit at tables said Jessie and . Too late isn't it? Milk and food she said to the waiter and please don't cook . Maybe . Excuse me said the waiter, soon Jessie began to smell the . Will you suck it. When he put back again, that's when he , now you , to take that silly suit off , no I won't . Had to ask people some people might object. Say what you like Oh thank you. Ah. We have an addition. Mm. Not really no. No. Might as well have some light on the matter. What, oh, perhaps cos I never We might just about be able to see. You haven't got have you? , I didn't know that one had gone, usually it's the bulb over there that had gone, but I find it so difficult to get at, you change it. I didn't know this. It seems to be gone for a long time. I don't know about this one,. Oh, well, will, will shall,know it all without music now don't you? Well of course. Mm, shall we start with, with a Tchaikovsky, see how that is going? Mhm. It's coming on very well, isn't it? I'm afraid this last week hasn't been wonderful for, for practice. For practice. I understand absolutely, I, I could say exactly the same so, don't . Lovely, very, very, good indeed, that, that is there now, sounds very good, just, erm, a few little things, would you try to give me more on the fifth finger, the E, the E flat, there, think of a crescendo , to that, want that come out, then, then it will, erm, I'm almost frightened to put a crescendo in because it wasn't the, a big one. No. If I put that in, to remind you to bring that up. Aha. I thought this was most impressive, very, very good indeed, it it was, it sounded really very convincing, it did, worked beautifully, now, where, the only error as such, is this bar, you're making these much too long, you're making them almost crotchet length. Mm. But, so erm, just think there for a moment, one, two, one, two, and one, and two, and, you're going one and two and one and And So you're halving the tempo, but, it needs a slight roe that means just lead into it, so,, two and one, can do that, but you're doing ,, and it's instable for ever. Right. And then, you know, it, it, makes that sound strange, so just watch that, that, erm, what if we just pick it up around here, just for me to hear that and get that right, we ought to be fine, any . And one and two, that's it, got it, erm, the, better we just do to check that it's correct and to remind you for rhythm, is listen to those, because those are exactly the same as those. Yeah. Just once again this time . Two and one and two and one and, now there you just make the crotchet a bit too short, erm, try until you get it into your system, which you will, just counting that, in, inside yourself. Mhm. And you'll find then that, that, that will fit, can you just adjust your ? This? Yes. Work out what fingers should be. F sharp. And one, two and and, you've got it, yeah, yeah, do it once again, and try, the other thing, is try not to hold down that D, as you play the C, it's not important, but, it's better if you don't. Oh goodness me, can I go home? I want to have a look at, at this first, or the, the other piece or would you like to Yeah, maybe. Yes, there, there hasn't been This, this happens from time to time doesn't it? Oh I know, erm, with all of us, I understand completely, whilst that you feel a beat in it, erm, no where your left hand has to play, left hand seemed to be er leading a mind of it's own, yes. All over the place. Do it once again. Yes. , do it a bit slower, one, two, three, feel it,steady. Yes, that, that was almost that you have a complex about it. Still not right. Well I didn't have, , but you do now. Erm, it's, it's fine, it's, they were little slips, are you practising your left hand on it's own? Eh, I haven't been this week. I would. I've just been doing it together. I think just a few times Mhm. would would help it, it's it's not quite secure enough, because it might have been before I arrived, but all the weaknesses show up Yes I know. you know, so erm, I, I think a little left hand practice would solve it, I noticed that you put a five on that, I think it's better if you put a four. Yes. Whether you will or not is another matter, that, try it again, and no faster than that, very, very sturdy, very sturdy. It needs practice. Yes. Well, because it's, it's rather a case of the blind leading the the blind, erm I think they're both separately, but they Yes, now you, you played stuff just as difficult as this, and there's no, no problem, don't do it too quickly though, and, I don't mind if it's not finished next week, or the week after, it's the quality we want, so, so, don't, don't rush it. Just, if I were you I'd just do a little on it, every time you practised, and then put it away. Mhm. But, what, insist on, on left hand especially the little finger being really firm, so I shall leave you with that, that piece and wait excitedly, you know next week. Mm. How one pages the other six. That's it. Right. Done it separately. Oh yes,, then except miracles. No I, no, I mean you really respond very well, that Tchaikovsky was lovely, I understand at the present you can't do as much and admirable as you're still doing. Well I have to have something to do by myself. Yes, well yes surely make that or otherwise you, if you give up everything. Yeah, even if it's only ten minutes a day, at least it's something. Oh yes, yes, I think we all need, even, even if, plain, life is full of playing games and the game can help you get through the day sometimes. That's right. So, right let's hear the right hand. Yeah, just erm, that was fine, fingering here, erm, why do you put a, put a four on that, I, I would of thought that, that is more sensible, you put into the next note down, let's try that, er mm Now do you know where two is in your mind? Mm. , sorry the and, do you know where it comes in the troll? In the middle. Yes, on that F sharp, right. Mm, one and two and, lovely, that's it, got it? Mhm. Though watch the beat there, then we'll be fine, good, let's go on. . Yeah, now, are you going to put an F you put a four on that, so if you're doing it there, do a four also. What on the A you mean? , yes on the A. Oh right. the same. What was I doing? Put a five. Oh right. making life difficult. Difficult. , just try it. Then a four. Good. Yes, now I wouldn't slur those quite so much as I would make that all legato. You try putting a thumb on the A, no do, do this slowly, making the whole thing legato. The thumb da, da, yes, but, if you're in it's a cord of G, you'll put a two on the B, final note, and then go up to a five on a G, not a one, it's better to do that, see if you can try. That's it, do you find that difficult? No, just awkward. If, if, if you can't , if you prefer to put a one there cross it out with a vengeance. Well I . Take a rubber to it. I try to . And, it's, it's better roll than keep on using the thumb to get you out of the keyboard but, if, I don't want it to spoil Well I see, if it, if it. See how it goes, but that's, that's good, now let me just . Good, very good . Yes, very good, and you're sure you haven't put a three on that aren't you? Of course. Good nothing wrong with that, nothing wrong at all, now I think rather than set you something new, it's better to, try to get another bar. Think so. So, concentrate on this and I'm, I'm, must get round to , I'm sorry my life has been in turmoil because of the, the dog situation, Jean and I haven't been up to the West End, but erm, I, I know which book I want, I want to get you, erm, and yes, I want you to do this, so and this actually it's very good, very difficult, good, do a bit of technic. Mm, shall we? Why not? Have you, have you been spending hours on the technic? Oh absolutely. The Would you prefer not to? All I've been doing is well, I've been training,scales and arpeggios. Oh yes. Two hands doing it. Oh, yes, you've had a lovely time. Wonderful time, it's loopy, it's up there somewhere. Well stop it doing that. Where? This one isn't yours. , is up there. Wonderful, that's it. That's it. I haven't done all of them. No, no, what, what have you done? Erm, well I've done C. Yes. And I've just about managed to get staccato in the right hand. Do you a lot of good, you'll thank me for it one day. You try it the other way round. But do now, what you find easiest,. Don't find any of it easy. That's a funny balloon isn't it? Oh what? That's funny. What da man doing? Big man. Big man, yes, right, you have a look at the magazines. And Postman Pat. You want a Postman Pat, oh we'll see if we can find you a Postman Pat, mm. They're new Postman Pats in here, no. No. We'll go and find Postman Pat, there might be up there, go and have a look, you have a look? There Postman Pat there, oh you've got that one, you have to wait until next week, alright, O K, we won't buy that cos you've already got it, O K, ooh, ooh, are you with me? Are you sulking? You listening would you like some bananas? Oh, I want banana. You want bananas see. I want it, I want it. How about please? Mum, I want it. There we are , you can't have it until I've paid for it sweetheart. I want. Charlotte, that's enough. I want. Enough. I want, I want, I want. said I want, I want, because you won't get anything, right one bag of potatoes. Can you try and keep still, right, potatoes. You being a car? Mm, are you being a car? Where man gone? Where's the man gone? What man? He's gone . There's lots of men. But, lots of men in the garden. Lots of men in the garden are there? I don't think so. We'll have a look. What you want to look at? I don't know. You don't know, let's, let's, have the list, there we are. What do we need? What do we need? I don't know. A Postman Pat shape. You've got some Postman Pat shapes at home. You You've got, there's no need to buy any more do we? Yes. Yes, alright I'll get one, one thing. . I want to hold it. You want to hold it, here you are then, you hold it. Postman Pat, Postman Pat,, early in the morning . Oh, right, do I need any cereal today? Mm. Oh any, you're going to fall out of this aren't you? One, two, three, oh. Pardon? One, two, three, oh. One, two, three, what? One, two, three, oh. Oh, are . And what we need? What we need, what we need Bag. is Is a worm,. You never watched Lady And The Tramp for a long time have you? Na, na, na, na, na. No you haven't. Yes I do. Yes I do, when do you do? When did you watch Postman, I'm sorry, erm Postman Pat. When did you watch Lady And The Tramp? In the lounge. I know where you watched it, I'm asking you when you watched it. Postman Pat, Postman Pat,Post way too early in the morning. , anybody loves a . Would you like some chicken for dinner? Shall we cook a chicken? No I don't want, I don't want . Oh Charlotte stop whining. I don't want, I don't want. Well I do, I'm very sorry, I want to have chicken, so there. Will you please be careful what you're doing with that tin. It's dangerous. Now where are those little, biscuits we had before? Hello, I didn't see you. Oh hello , how are you? How you getting on? That another one? Oh yes. Oh. How are you anyway? Alright. Yeah. How you keeping? Oh, alright. Yes. Exhausted. Alright there. Oh yeah hard work with two. Yeah, but , Charlotte, she's looking away, hey. Are you going to say hello? Don't be rude come on, say hello, do you remember Lynn? Haven't seen you for a long time have you? No, not happy with me today. She's lovely. Ha, how's Natalie? Oh she's alright, she goes to school. Does she, doing exams yet? Yes,. Is that ? She's done started it already. She's started? Yes . How's she doing? Alright. Oh. Yeah, still Natalie to learn, the way, how I look at it. Pardon? She's not ready yet to learn. No. I think somebody's tired. I wouldn't keep you, I give you a visit one day. Yes, do come pop in. We're usually there. I'll give you a ring. Yeah. We don't get out much at the moment. Nice baby again. Oh yes, and the big one. Yeah. Twelve pounds now. Twelve pounds. Yeah, she's only coming up for six weeks, mm, a monster. little boy, a boy? No it's a girl. Girl again. Mm another girl, I know. another go No , two girls that's nice, we got two girls, they've got two boys, Brian and , so that's alright,, we're quite happy. Someone to pass the eh clothes down to, innit? Yeah . Oh dear. Charlotte I've got to finish, get home and feed this monster, don't do that please. See you then. O K, see you soon, yeah, bye. Charlotte. Don't cry. Be good another day. Do you like these? Do you like these? , we'll get some of those, I'll put them in, in the trolley, come on, now Charlotte please don't start being naughty, don't start. Charlotte mummy get cross with you if you start this nonsense, just got to get some dog food and some bread then we can go home, O K? No. Don't you say no to me. You don't want me to get cross do you? I don't want to get cross. Oh I know, we need some more raisins don't we? Shall I go and buy some more raisins? Mm. Difficult to pick up this isn't it? I want one. Oh you can't hold that? Right let's find the dog food. Food for Jessie. Right you stay there, mummy get the dog food. We don't need cat food. We don't need cat food, we haven't got a cat, silly girl. cat food. We don't need cat food. You only buy cat food if you've got a cat. Meow. And we haven't, got a meow. Meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow. Just a minute get some of this. Meow. Mum. Mm? What do you like? That. What? What's in here? What's in there, we've got biscuits, I'm just going to get some raisins, alright, they're just up here, you stay there. Here we are. I want raisin. You want some now do you? Alright, I can open this up, I got the little box, there you are, just a minute and, oh Charlotte, oh you are a menace, there you are, now you be quiet for a minute will you? Let's get some peas, I think that's it then. Right, O K, now we can go, now we can go home. Ooearry doggy. Mm,later, alright? Right, you've got, they're hidden away at the moment, I'll put them in the bag, alright? We find some more later, promise. Oh Charlotte don't whine. We'll go home and have some lunch and then Joelle will be back from school won't she? That'll be nice won't it? Yes. does she? I want biscuits. You want biscuits, well we've got some biscuits, but you'll just have to wait a minute, I can't unpack everything now, alright , right let's see if we can find the car Get you two in the car first I think, right then, oh, what a heavy trolley full of food Oh dear, dear, dear, will you please put your feet down Charlotte, stop me being kicked. Where's the sun , where's the sun gone? Where's the sun gone? Oh it's gonna rain now. Right, now, will you climb into your seat for me? Oh. Get into your seat lovey, come on quick, quick. There's a good girl, up you go, mummy Mum I'll do it. mummy do the straps for you. I do my straps. I don't think you can, can you? Go on you try, you start and I'll see if I can plug it in. I plugged it. You gonna plugged it are you? Alright there's the other bit, see if you can do that, I'll put the shopping in the boot. Sit still lovey, come on get your hands out, now put your bottom in the seat properly, so I can do this, there we are. Oh. Alright, alright, off we go, let's go and get some petrol, otherwise we won't be going anywhere will we? If we run out of petrol, won't be very clever. all raining now. It's all raining, isn't it nasty? Nasty. It's cold. Oh it's not very cold. Yes. It's not cold, just wet. It's wet, it should be nice and warm. You're nice and warm in there are you? Eh? and warm. You're nice and warm, I'm very glad you're nice and warm. warm, raining. It's raining, yes. It's raining, look, see cover. Mm. All the car under , what colour is the car, what colour is my car? What colour my car? Mm? Black. Right, now here we are, this the right kind of petrol. Right, now you be a good girl for a minute, while I'll fill up the, fill up the car alright? What did you say? I said doll is going any box, box. Doll's going where? Going in my pushchair. Oh, right. Dad's a silly tape. Dad's a what? Silly tape. Silly tape, why's it silly? Cos it No don't touch it sweetheart please. I'm not listening. No, I'm not listening at the moment. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Are you dancing? Mm. You what? , I can't see. Can't you see? Mm. Ooh Amy such a noise. , you going to do your jigsaw now? You do Spot. No I can't at the moment sweetheart, because I'm feeding the baby. You have a go, I'll help you afterwards. No, don't you want to try? You try. I don't need to try now. I'm sucking my finger. Why? Yes. Your, what do you want to do with the ? What do you mean what do I want to do with it? The eh old one. Oh, I'll put it outside. Outside, for what? Put a plant in it or something. Don't want to throw it away. No. If there's room in the cupboard by the back door, put it in there, otherwise, we'll put it in the shed. You'll find room for it somewhere. Yes. Charlotte. Mhm. What you doing? I doll I'm going to put it in . Why don't you bring her and put her in your dolls pram? Mm? I can't in here, in the . I can't hear what you're saying darling, you better come in here so I can hear you. I don't . You don't want what? I don't want to get wet. You don't want to get wet? No. Well you're not going in the rain are you? No. You won't get wet here. Won't get wet. No you won't get wet. What? I won't. I won't, I won't Oh Amy you are hungry monster, oh Your drink's on the table darling, here, can't you see it? A red cup. What you looking for love? Another. Where's another what? What you looking for? Aha, it's here. What is? What isn't? It's in the dining room. What's in the dining room? My . Your drink's here love, it's on the table right in front of you. I want it in a cupboard. No your drink's here, I can see it, it's on the table in a red cup. In here. Oh Charlotte. Here, in here. You've found another one. How many drinks have you got? I'm not having that one. You don't want that oh. What's wrong with that one? Is that not a good one? Is it empty? Mm. Mm I'm falling down. You're falling down, oh, how careless. No, no, no, no. I want to look at. No you can't look at them at the moment. I'll look at them with you later, but you can't look at them by yourself. You look at them. I will, later. You're not . Mm. Pardon? I don't along. Oh. I'm not a , I'm being at home. You're at home are you? And they're not. I've been cross the road. She put, why you being cross? , go to sleep, go to sleep. Who, who you talking too? To Joelle sleep. Oh Joelle told you to go to sleep did she? Yes. Aha. Did you go to sleep? Were you a good girl? You did go to sleep didn't you for a long time? Yeah. Long time. Long time. Long time, I'm playing that,. I think you manage to . I think what? You manage . No what, oops, not until Thursday, Tumbletots on Thursday. Oh. Do you need to sit on your potty? Charlotte are you listening to me, ooh, ooh, wakey, wakey, do you need to sit on your potty? No. You sure, alright, you tell me when you do. It's on there, need it, needed it. Right, well remember where you've left it then, so that when you want your drink you know where to look. It's here, it's here. Yes I can see it's here. It's here. Yes. And that's . Oh you going to put them both together. Oh that's nice and tidy. That's nice and tidy, and that's nice and tidy. That's right. Me turn it round. You do what you like with them. Turn it round. O K. I see them, wanna see them, see them,pretty. It's very pretty. Pretty, oh. Charlotte, come sit on your potty, quickly. No. Charlotte please, do as I ask you, come along. I wanna do a poo. Yes, well you go and sit on your potty and do it, there's a good girl. No. Charlotte if you want to do a poo, you must do it in your potty. Where you want, where do you want to do it? Well, will you come and sit on your potty then? No You go in the pushchair, at . You take your dolly for a walk. Oh . Oh dear. Mummy's tired I'll . Oh sleepy babies. Has your baby gone to sleep too? This one's nearly asleep. I'm not hurting your foot. I'm glad to hear it, I don't want my foot hurt. You sit down? What does he eat? Yum, yum,. I know, he says yum, yum, yum, what does he eat? He eats funny things doesn't he? Can you remember? What? He doesn't eat bread and butter like you do, does he? What does he eat? Mm, can you remember? No? Mm. Mm. Mhm. Mhm Right you going to sleep for ten minutes, no, what a noise. Does your baby make noises too? Yeah, Amy's. Amy makes a lot of noise, doesn't she. No,. What's you dolly's name? He's called, he's called Mrs Jacobs. It's called Mrs Jacobs is it? Oh. I put in her here. Oh you're going to put her in how you started, that's alright. Amy's not using it at the moment, oh goodness me. Careful that doesn't fall on you Charlotte. You being careful? Mm. Mm. Don't want you to get a bump on the head do we? Wonder if your daddy's caught any fish yet? Careful sweetheart, careful. Mind her . Don't break the straps will you? No. Cos we need them. Cos the doll in car. Mm. I put the doll in the car. Well you've got your own little car seat for your doll, look it's on the cupboard, up here, that's your special one, isn't it? No that is the special one. No that one is, is Amy's. That one doll's. Oh you can put dolls in it as well, but when Amy wants to sit in there, you can put your doll in the other one, can't you? Alright? In here. You can, you can leave her in there for now, cos Amy's not going anywhere. Not going in here. We're not going anywhere now, not today. We're not going . Not today we're not, no. Unless she comes here, but she might pop in. Might pop in,. Mm. But where are we going tomorrow? Can you remember? Where? Sue. No we're not going to Sue, we're going swimming. Now, tomorrow. You want to go to the swimming pool? Yes. Yes. Take you swimming. And when we come back, when we've had our lunch we're going to see William. Would you like to go and see little William? Yes. Would you? Mhm, William have a, have a drink. Well I expect William will have a drink, yes, and I expect you will too, what you doing? there's two cups in here. There's two cups there, they're yours aren't they? They're yours. They're yours, not William's. Not William's. You might see Georgina as well tomorrow. Oh no. Oh yes. I want to see William. Yes but Georgina's going to see William too. I mustn't go to see William. Yes you are. I not going to see Gina. No,Georg Georgina is going to see William, so we'll all be together with William, that'll be nice won't it? We have a, in, inside, all of them. You're going to drink all of them. Not both together, sweetheart you'll just spill it Your a little comedian you are, aren't you? I wander through the . Oops, careful. I'm not Ooh did it go bang on your foot? Move it then. Here you are. Here you are, here you are madam, here you are madam, who you calling madam? Mummy,shut that . What the handle? I can't at the moment, I'll do it in a minute for you. Eh, Joelle do it. Well, I think Joelle's a bit busy too. Joelle is busy. I think Joelle is busy, oh dear. Joelle is put on chair . Careful, oh it's a bit heavy for you. The table . A bit heavy for you. You be , I sit down, put dolls in here. sit up. What's the matter ? Mm. Oh doll over there. She's gonna fall out isn't she? No. If you tip the chair up she will. Oops there she goes, poor dolly. falling over , and I pick her up, oh poor doll, she gets all wet, she's falling down now. Oh dear. Oh poor dolly, oh Ah, ah . Oops. I never go. No. in here, in here. In here. In here, in here, in here, in here. Oh. and Haven't you had enough yet little girl, mummy's getting ever so tired, oh what doing? Well you try that one then, you see what happens. what's happening, see. No, don't think that one goes does it? That goes. That's it. Not right there, no. No. How about this one? Oh yeah, this. Aha. There we are, eh, what about that one? I think goes in here. Do you? Yeah. I think you might be right. Yeah. Yes, oh now that one might join on quite near, mightn't it? That one there, yeah. No, turn it round, turn it round. There. A bit more, where the colours fit in, that's it, that bit, oh you're a clever girl, right now have a look at that piece, and see if you know where that goes. That goes What's that little, what's that little pink thing? in the mouth. That Spot's tongue? Yes, goes in here. That's right, turn it round just a little bit more. There. No, no, look there's another little piece of his tongue, there look, so if you turn that round, that goes on there doesn't it? Mhm. No you've turned it right round again, you silly billy, turn it round, turn it round, that way, that's right, that's the way it goes Right now we need another piece don't we? Perhaps that piece goes on there somewhere, is that a piece of his nose? Mm. Right, let's see if we can find another eye, is that an eye? Yeah. Well you haven't put the nose on yet, go on, put the nose on. I can't. Yes you can, there, solved, no that's wrong isn't it? That piece first I think. That's it, then we've got that piece the other way on it, that goes in there, that's it. Right now we want to, that's it, that's the bit with his spot, big brown spot. Oh what, what do Amy doing? I don't know, I'll have to go and get here, shan't I? No. Well let's hurry up and finish this, then we'll put her in her chair, and she can watch, one goes there, think that one goes there? Yeah. Yeah, and what about that one? What this one, try that one in that hole there. Alright, turn round. That one there, that's right. Oh, There we are, there you're alright, O K, now there's his tail, that goes up there, and try that one, see if you can see where that goes, oh what a clever girl, and that one, no there look, there's only two holes left, that one and that's the other one with his foot. Where do you think that goes? I know. It goes on there, well done, let's turn it round and see the whole, whole thing, there you are, there's a great big picture of with his tail falling off, there we go. We do Thomas now. Can we, oh, how nice. We put box. Oh put Spot back in his box, there's his box, I'll go and get Amy and put her in her chair, and she can watch you do Spot, alright? Just a minute, mummy help this, there you go Amy, you sit down there. You sit down there. What you doing? Want to do Thomas now? Mm. There you go then, now we can do Thomas. Here you are. What, you coming to help, I'm not doing it by myself, there's the other pieces there look Oh Charlotte that's naughty, go on pick them up now, please. I'm not going to pick them up when you just throw them around like that. Charlotte please, pick the pieces up. No, no more pieces. There's two more pieces on the table. What've you found? What is it? What are you eating, tell me. Eh, tis erm I think it's a crisp. Crisp. a delayed reaction. No no don't. saw do that Amy. They're at you, cos they don't know what you're doing. Ooh make a funny nose, ooh, ooh, It's a good game isn't it? You think there's more grub around, well you can keep on thinking. Do you want a cup of coffee? Erm, I'd like something to drink, I don't think I want coffee. I . Cup of tea. I chocolate. A cup of tea I think. No, no, no. Don't be Charlotte . I think she wants walk. Mm,and wait. . Why? I'm tired, I need you to do a few things for me. What? Prepare the thing. Oh you've broken another one, oh you must cut them. Where is it? Show me which finger it came off.. It's supposed to . So It wasn't going to leave until half past three, four o'clock, he would've arrived at fishing at half past five, he's gonna be late, unless he does very well very quickly, then he won't be late. He won't be here for dinner probably. Thomas. Mm. I go and make the beans. They're already made you just have to prepare them. And eh, what ? There's half a potato left from yesterday, which I'll give to her. Mhm, mhm. Shall I? Shall I give it to you? Mm. Yeah, you'd like some chicken for your tea tonight? Where's you say your tea . It's not tea any more is it, it's dinner. It used to be tea, but now she stands up. Who's face is that? It's Thomas face, and that's . oh that's right, turn it round cos I can't see the face, there, that's the way it goes, that . it's getting heavier. Can't turn it round. No, oh you had it right the first time, oh no you didn't, you need a face, find a face, look. There it is. How's that? No, that goes over the other side of it, that's the other corner. Charlotte mind the box. Oh that piece can go there can't it?. When's George and go to sleep? Erm, I think twelve. Twelve,douse is that this week is the week after that? I don't know, what are we today third?. Mm Spain into castle , one for my sister, one for and one for . Going to be busy on Saturday morning aren't you? Oh yes. Oh there's plenty of card shops in Croydon. I'm going eh, early in the morning. Mhm. Right yes, yes,, yes. And that one, that's it. And that one. You going early? No. Well for Saturday morning. What you've called Alice. Went . . In the morning. That's the time you're going to get up or the time you're going to leave? Well what happened on Sunday? On Sunday I'm up. You don't get up until ten o'clock. No I er, I do wake, wake up at half past nine, and I . Oh that's early. And half past nine ten o'clock,, I . And you went to watch children's television? No. Yes. You went to watch the television, I heard you. It wasn't children's television. Oh it wasn't, oh. No, it was, it was a very interesting film . Oh, intellectual cartoons was it? , oh no, no, it was a film. What is it? What is it? What? What am I . So he was and, and I ask . Charlotte don't climb up there, get down. And you can do what you want. Mm. So I do what I want. I'm not saying you shouldn't, I was just laughing. Yes, I know, said little, little bit before seven because I was . Mm. so I, I took a . You reckon you'll be able to do that by nine o'clock? Of course, I think. Careful sweetheart. She's having fun. Yes. You having fun little girl? My little girl. You know when I, when I change a nappy? Mm. I see her . What . that sort of thing. Mm. Something inside it. Yeah. Yes, it's got milk. Yes but,. Well at this age they're all tummy, going, they're just like, big, big, big tummy, they're Erm, what about erm,? What about it? She . And eh, when you are going to give some solid. Mm, then it will change. What would you expect? It's only breast milk it's like that, if they have bottles, bottled milk it's more solid from the beginning, but it's not nice, this isn't bad, messy, but it's not smelly. Is it,change her nappy, my sister, my step sister. Well you've changed Charlotte's nappy, that's enough for anybody. Oh god. Some of those are pretty nasty, mind. What her face. Gently.. , erm I'm going to do some . Are you lot going back to keep fit? . Stop it . Lay down, lay down. cos every I don't want you going I don't want you going on, by yourself, cos it's dark. Lay down lay down. Lay down I said. . So you can go if you want. Yes. What you doing? Another paper. Oh, you've found two pieces. Yeah. Oh, draw me two lovely pictures then. . It's the half past seven , at seven o'clock . I can do. Start and finish. I can do the bath but somebody sweep . Oh dear. Go . Right I think it's probably . didn't. No it's number seven . There you are look. Oh. Well it's the same with all these , it's like pictures and diet books, all people are always skinny. Yes, always nice.. I saw those this morning.. You have to do something quickly before you see your mum. Two eyes, two eyes, two eyes, two eyes, two eyes. Yes, yes . in the hole properly, don't . Yeah, I think now. I think, I actually I hid, where does it come out again? I put the book away, it's come out again. Somebody must of found it. Yes. She, she go and take . Yeah, well, she didn't know how to. Oh dear, just a minute. I don't think it's for you just now Charlotte. I think it . Yes I was. Yes I know you was, but, oh . Do what you want and you regret it. You don't need to, to people opinion . Put it on the piano, or somewhere, where she can't reach it. Would you mind doing the beans now Joelle, cos it won't be ready otherwise, it won't be ready in time for dinner. I do . What? I do. Have you not had much energy recently? Oh, I work late Friday. Talk about vintage cars outside,inside I think. Oh yeah. Very clever of her, boast at the same time. No, I erm , no I have to work late on Friday. What did you miss aerobics then? They're erm, I erm, said goodbye come and pick me up by the school. Pick me up from work about eight o'clock. That's not on Weightwatchers is it? Do you think you could go and serve you and Charlotte. I don't think so. No. I don't think I'm going to be able to. Give her a little bit of eh leg meat, yeah. Of a what? Leg meat. And there's half of baked potato in the fridge if you can scoop it out of the skin and heat it up. Pardon, not hit it, heat. Stop crying Did you have a nice weekend? Shopping in John Lewis for . At the weekend? What on Saturday? Yeah. it's not open on Sunday. Yeah, she wanted to get some fabric to make up a jacket. Oh this is the jacket that mum said . That's the one. That's the one. Shall we, shall we turn this off now? No we not. No we not, alright. We leave it. We leave it alright. Can I see? Is the television control behind you? Could you turn the volume down. Which one's the telly? That one. That one. It's like arrows, that's alright, we're not turning it off love, don't worry. No don't turn. That's it, it's wonderful, I don't think we need it quite so high, when we're not concentrating. No. what you got, mind yourself. So what, what you do, what sort of type of things did you get? , in the picture it's really , it looks more like a jacket rather than a blouse. Oh right. But, erm, I mean all the fabric we went to get, they just cotton and erm Yeah, but there's cotton and there's cotton. cotton , weaved cotton or something, something cotton, I can't remember what it is. The Aberdeen Hello. . But erm, the fabric that Jamie wanted all print, it's just printed cotton,. Oh. But I mean the style of it is obviously jacketed person, blousey, cos it's collar and she's got three buttons at the front and it's fitted as a jacket as opposed to a tuck in a blouse. Oh right. And it's got three quarter length sleeves. Oh. Or half sleeves.. it probably looks half isn't it? Wear it as a skirt as a jacket blouse. As a jacket, yes , that's right, I think it'll look quite smart, you know, with, perhaps a straight skirt. With a plain, that goes in one of the colours. Mm. Oh well mum will enjoy herself won't she? She always does. Well I expect Jamie can, get as much, get as far as a button your blouse. Oh well Jamie, well, I think she'll She did do some sewing at school didn't she? Yeah. So she shouldn't be completely I don't think you know she's doing it down there because it like, it she's not very good at understanding the pattern. Well she's not got a machine anyway has she? Charlotte you don't read books when you're watching the television. You're watching the telly. You read later sit and watch telly. No, no, no I won't . Did you hear how, oh suppose you haven't spoken to her since the party have you? No. What's the cake like? What did she do? but she didn't see the on you know, on the cake, it's all . Oh cos do My Little Pony some time ago though, frantically looking for a pattern you know a magazine or something. Yeah, yeah.. Wonder what Charlotte's passion will be by her next birthday, at the moment it's Postman Pat. Mind anything Disney at the moment will probably go down a treat. Sorry? Anything Disney will probably do down a treat, like Lady Amd The Tramp, Sleeping Beauty or something. Yeah. Oh dear.. Have you, have you not seen it? I have, but I can't remember it. But you don't remember it. I don't know how much of it I remembered, cos I've seen it so often now, mm, can't remember the first time I saw it Didn't know . Lady to the rescue. I use . I hope you don't get wet. That's right, that's what I'm just thinking actually. Cos I don't know what time Adam will be back he's fishing. Oh right, I don't, I mean, I don't really want to get wet, but I mean, it's not so bad going home,wet going home. Oh you can just jump in the bath. Just get in the bath , it's the going in the morning. This morning it started to . You can wake up now, got to change your nappy,, mucky nappy, mm. Yeah . Why what say? She's up late tonight. Oh it's normal now. Oh is it? Yes, she has now. Well, she her, her sleeping habits during the day change to afternoons, and, well today she's been she had about two hours this afternoon, so if we did our normal and gave her tea at five o'clock, and send them up for a bath at half past six, there's no way she'd be asleep. No. So we sort of switched all around now, so she eats with us at half past six stroke seven, goes up for a bath at seven thirty,eight o'clock and she's in bed by nine, then she, she's usually asleep by half past ten, but eh, it seems to have cured the problem we had with her , wanting, wanting me all the time, after she's gone to bed. Yeah. So, seems to be working. Well this one seems to go to bed a bit later now, so she goes longer, but she's feeding all day today,, I'm at every couple of hours, so with a bit of luck, I'll finally put her to bed maybe half past nine ten o'clock, she might go through till three or four, which isn't bad. No. It's usually half past nine till, I wasn't so good last night, she went until two, but then she didn't wake up again until seven. Manages to do long stretches at night, which is nice. Yeah. And then she went to sleep again until ten, on our bed. Mm. She's reluctant to go back in her own bed, so I just point her over me shoulder and lay and said get on with it an insult. lose his sense of smell in the wet. Richard had any more pets recently? You haven't had one. Yeah, he's booked one of the thirteenth. Oh,good luck, eh. We listened to some karaoke tapes this afternoon. Oh yeah? Well, bought a couple for Adam, his What he want's them for? Not to sing, he wants them to play the guitar with. Oh. So we listened to them and had a laugh,, teeny weeny what's it, polka dot bikini they're quite funny here. He wanted boppy ones, so he, you know, he could do a Hank Marvin you know? But erm, I think he should have a bit of fun with those. We bought one each for the girls . oh well, can't have everything. well there's a good, a good bit of scope for eh, playing don't you? Eh? Good bit of scope, a bit of Oh yeah. words in here with the music? Oh yeah, all the, all the lyrics are in there. Why I suppose being all those sort of songs, everybody knows them. Yes. Alright come on you. Yeah. holding your head up. Getting a strong neck aren't you? Mm, well it's not quite using my shoulder a bit, she does her press ups put her on her stomach,, mm. Charlotte it's dinner time. Oh. Give me a kiss. Lovely chicken. No. It's finished now, just about. Chicken, yummy. Don't want chicken. Love some, yes you do. Do. You do. I do want, I do want to see. You want what? Oh dear. Off you go then you go have your, your dinner. . I want dinner, I not finished, finished. Yes it's finished, it's finished. It's finished. Turn the television off then, go on you push the button. No . There you are that says the end, that means it's finished. That is the end. That's right. That is the end of the . That's it, off you go then, you go and have your, go and have your dinner I'll see you in a minute. Bye, bye, bye, bye. Bye, bye. Bye, bye, go and have some din din. Charlotte you come and your dinner or it'll get cold. Alright. Go on off you go love. Oh dear, oh dear. Crocodile Rock. It's my party and I'll cry if I want to I'll cry if I want to. cry if I want to . , don't cry, oh Amy. Suzie, Suzie, Suzie. What you looking for? Charlotte you're coming. Quick. What? Come on let's go and change your nappy little one shall we? They're doing a, I've got a piece of paper somewhere with it all written on, I'll show you, they're doing a piece of research with a company that does dictionaries and a university, to put together a load of modern usage. Oh right. Like, has a, like the girl that came talked about it, like for example, people are using wicked, good. Oh yeah. So there's, obviously lots of other pieces, English at work as well. Yes. So I've been left with a load of tapes,batteries. How long have you got to do it for? Mm, as often as I can until further , she left all the . Yeah. Brilliant little machine actually, well it's only a Walkman, but the microphone is incredibly Yeah is that the microphone there? Yeah. Clever. It's a small enough tape innit? It is really . Let's go and do a bit of spying. That's right. conversation come into it? Oh yes,, you could just quite, quite a lot in it, quite vocal she is. Who have you had taped? Mm, mum and dad, Brian and Lynn, erm, no, no not Brian and Lynn, Brian, Brian and Pauline, Bett , my piano lesson's on there yesterday. That'll be interesting. Mm,, piano playing's not so beautiful, but, is when he plays. Does he play when he comes here? If he's showing me something, or is, before, I start a new piece, he'll always play it. And yours sounds nothing like it? No, well certainly not the first time I play, it, I approach it when he thinks I've finished, but it's nowhere near, I mean Provisional, expect to sound as good Mm. so concerts and things, but you can, you can tell, with just, just by listening that it's not just any old body tinkling on the piano, it's wonderful, it makes you sick. Is Charlotte going to learn to play it? Well I hope she'll be interested enough to, but, not really before she's six, cos I asked him last couple of times ago, he said, what sort of age, cos obviously the size of the hands comes into it, they can't do too much, but he said he wouldn't consider before six and you ought'a have to take the parents into consideration, of a child that age you gotta have a parent who's prepared to sit there and make sure the child does what he's set them to do, because , oh Amy, you not getting any out of that. Have you finished it? Ha, you big lump. No wonder she puts on half a pound a week. Mind you erm, I mean that's not, it's normal, I expect you to put between six, six ounces and eight ounces . Oh dear, oh dear, it's a hard life isn't it? taken it off. How you doing? Eh, oh, O K, I'll find out tonight. Oh of course, Wednesday. The way in to work, cycled there last week. Oh my. I had to, Richard had taken the car , he takes it in the morning, but Oh my goodness,. Well he he takes the car to school, but, and it, sorry takes the car to work and before he's bringing the car home and then he's been going to school on his bike. Oh right. So of course the bike, the car's for me to use in the evening, but last You cycle home from here and then ? from you, then you get changed and then go, but, last week he took the car, cos when I got home, first I was late last Wednesday, well I say late, I didn't get back here, erm, until seven, so by the time I got home it was quarter past seven and I have to make sure I get to Weightwatchers between seven and eight. Oh, for the weigh in? Mm, so I had to go, quickly get changed, and cos it, it, I normally I just wear a pair, a pair of sandals and light weight clothing, but Oh dear. so, I couldn't go in sandals, well obviously I can't cycle in a pair of sandals on Can't really cycle with a floating skirt on either, can you? The last with me leggings on and this top on. Well, I looked a bit of a sight, but I thought well, well, you know, what else can I do, I mean I couldn't take clothing to get changed in to. Well, they wouldn't expect you to would they? I've, I'd got a few stares from some of the women there, I mean, there are some women there that are huge, and maybe they looked at me and thought oh I hope I can wear leggings like that one day , I mean I don't think I look too bad in the leggings, I mean I would never have done it when I used to go to Weightwatchers when I was thirteen and a half stone, I would never of gone in leggings, no way, but it doesn't Well you don't, you don't really look as if you need to lose weight cos it's probably why you got a few stares, it's like all the diet books that have sylphlike people on the front. Well . I mean I spoke to Jane the other Sunday and I, I said to her you know, just be honest, I said I don't care what you said, but just be honest and tell me how much you think I weigh, cos she doesn't know how much I weigh and she thought I weighed about ten stone, I said well stick thirteen pounds on top of that , then you'll be right, she couldn't believe that I, that I weighed that much, so obviously it doesn't look that bad and people at work, well they've noticed that I've lost weight, but they don't say how much they think I weigh, so I don't want come to them to sort of, have a, have a g have a guess of my weight. Guess the weight of a Suzie. Yeah, but they have noticed which is something I suppose. There's somebody came in today, a guy came in today who used to work with us who usually comes in occasionally and I would see him, but for a few weeks now, so he noticed it. It's nice that people say it to you unprompted. Oh yes, you say I'm on a diet, they say oh well you have lost a lot of weight then. Yeah. Adam's mum's like that. Oh is she? She knows you're dieting, every time she sees you, ooh you've lost a lot of weight. Even when you haven't, yeah, but erm, no I mean, there is a guy at work, I mean there is a guy at work that's constantly saying to me, oh it's really noticing, it's really started, he says this every day, and he, after a while, I mean it's nice to be told it, once in a while, but not every day. But not every day, it loses value doesn't it? Oh it does, and he said to me, erm this afternoon, he said eh, oh he said eh, your weight loss is really, really noticing this week, and I thought well, even if I had lost weight this week it's only going to be a couple of pounds, and a couple of pounds would not notice. Plus the different clothes you wear. It doesn't matter who you are, two pounds won't make any difference to your appearance, I mean, yeah I suppose clotheswise Well as you, as you get smaller, two pounds does notice, it's when you're Maybe it does. when you're bigger, and you've got a real lot to lose, and two pounds is nothing. Yeah, two pound is nothing , yes that's true. Two pounds is actually quite a lot. Yes it is. Good evening. My goodness me how many have you caught? Have you got a whopper in there? Yes. I's gonna say the bags full. Goodness. So, so your new leader did the trick. God you need, my god. Mm. Ah. In the chair Jessie. Good grief, what's it weigh? Three pounds, five and a half. Wow. Who shall we have over for dinner? Not giving that away. That's a lot. That's amazing. Alright, yeah. Wow. Well I'll tell you what Excuse my ignorance. It's a fish kettle job isn't it? Excuse my ignorance, but what is it? It's a trout. It's a very unusual colouring. Mm. No I think it's just the . Mum. It's spotty it's spotty, ha. No he lost some, lost some of his scales, that's all. I was a, having a devil of a job bringing him in, cos erm, he was in the top rank and he was, weave, he was weaving in and out . Wow. Oh well done you've got him. No good talking to me about top and bottom length , cos I don't know what you're talking about. Mm, the top lake is like very flat water, is a lot of weed and a lot of scum, right? Oh right. So bringing the thing in, hello darling, and erm, he was just literally he was rushing around the weeds trying to Trying to escape. tangle it, just trying to tangle it up, cos the idea being if he gets round a weed, often enough he go that means, basically it gives him a lever, I mean they're very clever you know, these fish, they're not, they don't just sort of sit there and wait. You mean someone ? They're not like coarse fish, Jo, perch, or roach or whatever in the river, if you catch them, they just sort of, lie down and wait for you. Give up. Yeah, yeah,. Wow. Oh, well done you did it. Joelle. Poor Joelle she's got some work to do. What she, cos her mum's got a fish shop, she knows the way of cleaning fish without you cutting them,, pulling it all out from, through the gills. Ready, steady And of course they, they stay whole and they're beautiful when they're cooked. I don't I'll tell Adam everything, he can do it himself. That's right. I'll cook them. Careful. I'll cook them and eat them. Yeah. He can catch them and gut them. That's right, yeah. Charlotte I wish you wouldn't do that because you keep sliding, one day you're going to slide and hit your face. Is that a seat? Not it's actually a step for the bathroom Mummy do it. so she can stand at the basin . It's slippery there isn't it? Well I suppose it is with shoes on. Mm, it's not meant for . Oh Amy haven't you finished? Come on, just gotta get your . Oh back? Yeah, in the kitchen. Why I don't think it's in the kitchen is it? I don't suppose there would be a rainbow would there? What they made of? Mm cotton and lycra. Is it cotton and lycra? Eh, cotton polyester, lycra, elastic. Forty six per cent cotton, forty six per cent eh polyester and eight per cent lycra. I brought erm, a pair of, a floral pattern leggings from Marks and Spencers on Saturday, but when I got them home, they did nothing for me. Ooh. Come to daddy. No.. No. Charlotte can you come inside love, come on darling. You given me a cuddle yet, no you haven't have you? Let's have my cuddle, come on put your arms round me, give me nice big cuddles , give a nice kiss. They were, they were calf length ones. Oh right. Liked cropped trousers. Ooh,. Only leggings. Only leggings and erm, they were blue, different coloured blue flowers. Getting undressed or something? No I'm, I'm getting dressed. Oh do you want me to leave? It's alright I'll shut my eyes. And erm, I tried them on, well I, I bought, I mean I bought them and brought them home and a sort of cropped, cropped leggings they didn't really do anything for me. Don't slam the door. I'm not going to darling. They catch the calf at the wrong place or something. Yeah. I have no idea, I haven't taken Nurofen for donkey's years, so I don't know what the situation is Are they downstairs ? They're either in the, in the erm, little cupboard in the downstairs loo or they're in the bathroom. He has some work to do I gather. Did you see the trout? I did trout. What a trout. Yes, big one. Not to be given away.. Getting ready to cycle home. Have to go work. Have to go work, yes. Then you can have a bath, ha. I meant bath for Charlotte. Mm. Eh, concentrate, oh yeah leggings, erm so Jenny tried them on, and they looked really nice on her, cos her legs, you see, cos I've got this bit here, little bit there, erm, and being cropped, just made the legs look a bit sort of stumpy. You haven't got stumpy legs. Oh I have, have well I've got high heels on,, but it's, it's, because I am Yeah, I know what you mean. Because I'm a bit patterny, flowers, with this little bit here and being cropped there, just made my leg look a bit, and I thought oh dear, and I wasn't convinced, Richard couldn't stand them, he thought I looked absolutely gross in them. So I thought, well I said I like them, and he said you can wear them as long as you're not out with me. So I thought well there's not much point in me having them, cos I would wear them If you find something unacceptable there's not much point. Well I, I'd be wearing them at weekends, so, you know just, just just slouching around in really, well you know, perhaps, cycling yeah. Not in front of the husband. Cycling. So I thought there's not much point in me keeping them, if he really does, doesn't like them at all, he Well done. So erm So she's got them. come inside, stay with mummy whilst I go and find myself some pills, please don't do that Charlotte. While you go find some what? Oh, pills, think I might have some in the car actually. You got some in your, I was just going to say in your handbag, in your briefcase? Could be. Erm, yes I'm going to try and buy some plain ones, you know her, you know her navy blue ones How many more? you know her navy blue leggings, but they're thicker than . Yeah, yeah they're nice. I thought I might get myself a pair of those. She got those from M and S, didn't she? Yes. Cos they looked really nice with that jumper she wears. Yes, so I thought, I might erm, cos I bought a jumper, I bought a pale blue jumper to go with the flowery leggings, but, I've decided I'll take blue jumper back, cos, although it would be alright with plain white trousers I thought that's all I would wear it with, I wouldn't wear it with anything else, so, I think I'll change that, if I get the dark blue leggings like Jamie, then I'll get the striped jumper the same. Soon be twins. Soon be twins. Daddy. What's the matter with you? Pull me. What do you mean pull these, what for? It's dead. concerned about it. Got some. Do we need, me to buy some more? Yeah, I . Better be without the Paracetamol for the last ten, eleven months or more. Mm. Is that all you're allowed? Mm. Well I mean, I don't know, I didn't ask any doctors, cos, we normally have Nurofen, but I didn't ask any doctors whether they were acceptable in pregnancy or not, I just assumed they weren't, cos nurses said last time,, that eh Paracetamols was alright. Yeah. Paracetamol is alright when you're breast feeding. It was very difficult misses, you always have it both ends of your , go on spit it out, spit it out, go on, you've got a mouthful there. More,, oh, oh dear, go on . Quick, quick, quick. Quick what? Quick what? Quick. She's getting worried about the door . The door. Yes. The front door. Yes, whenever anybody knocks or rings. Funny girl, I remember she sat there and said don't worry it's only daddy. Quick,. I said no it's not daddy, who is it? When she found out it was you, she was alright. . She got worried about my piano teacher when he arrived yesterday. Come on . No, Aunty Suzie got to go home. She's got to get on her bike. Oh. I've got to ride home, you're gonna give me a . Change your nappy again haven't we little one? Thank you. Oh Amy darling. What she say? Don't worry little girl, oh it's a hard life, oh sweety poppet. Hello. . Right come on. Let's make a move so I can get all, Richard probably beat me home. So I said, I said to her oh god you, you be lucky cos if you've done that aha, and he, come back . She said you better not forget you're employed, you are not in here on holiday, she said you your, your boss, your boss must say that to you Mhm. not you. What she say? She said we are not employed, we are , so I said oh, what's the difference, you pay for that, you've been paid for that, I said , because I promise you can, you can go . I . What a funny girl. She's crazy, she's crazy. She, I think she get, she thinks she can have Sounds like she's looking for a holiday. Mm, yeah, sounds like she's looking for a paid holiday. Paid holiday. Yeah. I'd be astonished. I'll tell you the, some people take advantage of au pairs, no doubt about it. I mean you remember I told you about my cousin, mm, now he is not somebody I'd recommend an au pair, au pair to work I don't, I don't. cos he I don't think his sort of by work. Yeah. She can go out for with some friends eh, every time she wants. Mm. So I don't think that . Mm. I don't think . But has she got children to look after or not? I think she quite nice with children. I don't want send her here. No. I don't think, think it a good idea really. I'll tell you what, what I don't need is somebody with an attitude problem. What, what's that? Somebody who has eh, er, a special type of attitude, you know, thinks in a particular way. Aversion to work. Because you're right, as soon as they make noises like that, I'll shall say there is the door, get on the other side of it, I haven't got time for it. No, but the way she said that to me I thinks . I am astonished, surprised is a better word. And I am , take some . Hm. Don't think she, we appreciate that. I'm sure. That's not your problem is it? No. telephone ringing I don't suppose Brian would want to come, do you want to come tomorrow morning?how are you? Good, good, eh I just wanted to find She was asking me what Brian it was, you were talking to her. Mm. What's her name . eh or something like that. Mon amie.. My, what does it mean? erm is something that I would not say to a French lady, something that I could say to my daughter, right? You can say that your French . Put her up put her on her side Well we counted twenty and then we were laughing so much we thought oh we'd better stop her you know twenty sort of goes from one side to the side when she's lying on her stomach. The reason they could sleep on her stomach. Yeah when they go out hospital for Charlotte the babies the night. Hmm hmm and there was one baby who was climbing out of the cot. then they put them on their stomach Ahh and then turn them Yeah So that they're getting a even tanned But this one was virtually almost out of of the cot Climbing out? It was really incredible Mum! Natalie you are drinking so much. You don't really need to drink constantly. Um mum er mum More? She might not have had it all Please Please? Mummy Mummy I don't know whether Charlotte's She's drinking so much I can't believe it. It's blowing It isn't even that hot though really is it? It's blowing. Please I don't want to have to disturb this one. Won't be able to put her back to sleep. Hmm But we have to though won't we? Yes Hmm Yes you're being good aren't you? Sounds like Georgie. It is Georgie. Oh dear! More close Georgie! Okay what happened then? Hello Georgie. She fell off the bannister. . no more roughage You were jumping up weren't you? You were jumping up and down and then you fell off. No You fell off but never mind you're all right again now aren't you? Hello! Fell down She fell down didn't she? Bye bye house Pardon? Bye bye house Bye bye house? Hello then! Going back to the subject of their parents thinking about it. How did you find you know having someone living in your house and things like that? Well I'm not the best in the world at having somebody else living in the house. Did you find it difficult or are you finding it It's easier to start with until you sort of get used to somebody Till you get to know each other overlap get annoying and things. But it's not as bad really. How old is she? She's only eighteen that's that's Do you let her out I mean does she go out in the evening? Let her out! Ha ha. How do you know like an eighteen year old is someone responsible If she wants to go. No Does she go out in the evenings or anything like that? No no she's not that sort. She started she's that, she made friends with one or two of her colleagues so she goes to the cinema of an evening Yes yeah and she yes It's impossible Yes yes She doesn't do it at home, she can easily go out It must be difficult if you had someone who wanted to go out all the time or if they're sort of really living it up or something I mean They are required but there are sort of rules and regulations they are required to do five hours work for you a day Mm Six days a week Right One free day off Mm And a reasonable amount of space Right oh I see yeah So obviously eating's generally theirs. Just sort of you could reasonable expect them to baby sit two or three times you know. Yeah. That must be great having a baby sitter on tap Yes it is That must be really nice A car a car Uh uh yeah A car Actually for me it's probably the best thing Yes Not having to have meals done if I'm busy No I am. but you don't touch because it's precious. Taken care of Yeah That's why I make sure I've got a couple of hours where I'm really with her almost exclusively overlap too easy otherwise. You know take her out and things like that. Yes oh yeah overlap must be very convenient though specially like with another one then you know these Or in this sort period before things actually settling down into a routine Mm Once she's in a routine a bit more then but we are still trying to do as many Mm Yeah we've been found it really difficult finding a baby sitter really I'm surprised ever since we've had Lisa we've been really bad uh uh actually having baby sitters and you know actually making the effort to go out really. We should shouldn't we go out more often really. But we just you know like Saturday night we really enjoy making a nice meal and having a nice bottle of wine or something and doing something The circles in the groups that you've been going to Ahm well I have had uh yeah I mean I have had people if I'd really wanted to but I mean we've had baby sitters and things like that. I mean I'd prefer really to find a teenager. An eighteen year old or something like that eighteen seventeen eighteen nineteen year old something like that who would like you know a fiver or tenner. Have your neighbours got ? Where we are now ahm there are all ahm either very young or very old. Natalie! They're either very young or very like young families or like about in their eighties . Oh right. wait isn't it I think ahm there's the N C T would erm at Woodmanston they just started about three weeks ago, three or four weeks ago. So I haven't been to any of those coffee mornings I've met a few people from it. Ahm so I'm going to see if I could set up a baby sitting circle or something like that. So that would be quite useful. Another friend Once you get to know people well it's nice isn't it? Yeah hmm What have you got? It all used to be quite lovely before we had Oh that's nice yeah And then they're being sponsored for Romanian Orphans Oh that's to raise money to take the equipment out there so that Oh that's good for Romania to decide oh that's good So that they can actually get out of their cot and have a move for five minutes but just gone to Romania uhm two weeks ago. She's she's a nurse so she's gone out there to work in an orphanage. overlap But it's not easy I mean you know I was reading an article ages ago a few months ago actually and saying you know if you think about it the sort of revolution was over a year ago and still the government hasn't done anything about it and I mean like a lot of provisions that have been brought into Romania sort of go in the front door and out of the back door and you know they sort of sent those of supplies like contraceptions and things like that for the women and overlap and the doctors was selling them to to to rich Romanians and things like that so there's such a lot of corruption in the country. It's also saying that you know the family it's only the family unit that helps itself out so if you're an orphan You haven't got a chance You haven't got anyone to look after you because they just look after their own really. They're currants They're what? Currants. What did you think? Don't ask me. It's just a different dried fruit and the other ones are sultanas the brown ones the bigger ones. Mm Oh sort of yes We must make a cake We? Must we? We don't have to but I'd like to want to get rid of some of this flour You've got so much stuff in there Let's do a chocolate one today and I think somebody else wants a biscuit. What sort of biscuit? You put What sort of flour do you need? White and you when there's white flour at home I use it Yes but has is it um plain flour or flour that raises itself? I think well because I my mother buy always the same it's the flour specially for the cake. You know it was something in it. There was something in it? For raising? You don't put something else in as well to make it No Okay. That's all right. As that's what we've got a lot of. So I put It's good self raising flour Two two hundred two hundred fifty It's all right don't don't need the just just what else do you need apart from that? Butter. Butter or margarine I use margarine I use butter and flour and In the morning in the morning Sugar sugar No no no come on don't play with that love please pick it up quickly off the floor don't walk on it. It's Amy's blanket love I don't want it all over the floor. Out of your nose out of your nose Charlotte please. Yuk! Err! Where is your dolly? Going to find your Put put Dolly in the push chair Charlotte. Would you put out of your nose? Don't make a big thing of it. The more you ask her to stop the more she's going to do it. I don't like what she's doing I know, nor do I but the more you talked about it the more she'll do it. I dropped in here Sure I have my antique Dump tee dump tee dump dump tee dump tee dum Charlotte careful Umpty dum tee dum tee dum Yes you are mind the table Charlotte there's drinks on it We can go to together Can we? You don't want to go down to the slides yet? No I said Charlotte Well you'll have to because she can't swim yet. Three months when she's three months she'll be able to. I will remain here? Well if you want to. No that's not for you. It's Joelle's No it's not Joelle's and it's not Mummy's. Mummy's No it's not well it's Mummy's at the moment but there's two ladies coming back to collect it tonight. So we're going I can see You can see? Yes I'm glad you can see. Oh oh it's my present. No it's not your present My present It's not a present. It's lots of tapes. It's lots of tapes. If we go to Croydon Croydon Croydon Croydon Croydon If we go to Croydon do you ever go to clean your shoes Oh Every time I look at it I see these bits of chocolate you spilt on it. I have Have you? Very well. Yes if we go to Croydon Croydon oh. What? Tomorrow. Oop mmm I told it to go something Don't you? I'll kill her Charlotte don't jump Ah ah When she was a little baby little baby with she was She's changed a lot since she's been here? Oh look. What? she had a different hairstyle. Oh dear! What have you got in there what have you got? Is that your Lego? Is that Lego in there? You gonna make Mummy something? Oh Amy don't cry now. To where we must go? Where must we go? We must go in the shop in the Pinge to buy something for my bunny. We must go to Penge you mean. I said Pinge. Didn't sound like Penge Do doo do doo She's a cheeky little monkey Cheeky cheeky. Cheeky cheeky. What do you need to buy for your bunny? Something to put for put inside. Oh stuffing. Yes What's the matter sweetheart? Your eyes hurt? You going to have a sleep after lunch today? No. You have been good for two minutes. Oh no. Yes you have Not a choice no. Not a choice Adam's going fishing? I don't think so no he'll probably going tomorrow. He's having a look to see how much work he's got in the office today and if he hasn't got enough to worry about going to work tomorrow he's just going to go fishing tomorrow. They haven't decided yet whether my car is going up to his office or to fishing. Hmm I must go to Croydon mustn't I to change that bra. You're going Mothercare? Pardon? You going Mothercare? No I didn't buy it in Mothercare. I bought it in Alders. In Alders? The big What? The big all the men I don't like You don't like what? overlap The big all the men Why? See the big all the men. That's a lovely tower. Bit cold. No no careful bring it away from the baby. See if you can make it any bigger. Oops! Bang! You've broken it. Some are not not funny. It's not funny. Oh all right then I won't laugh. You won't laugh? No. I don't laugh if it's not funny. It's not funny. Good. So how boring It's not funny. Eh? How boring. It's not boring. Do you want to go by train? Uhm. Well I don't mind going by train but I don't want to come back by train Because of all those stairs. No. As I was thinking of how to manage the pram See the big Oh yes And I wouldn't want to put the pram down all those stairs. Two one two three four I wouldn't walk to Croydon with her hanging round my neck. It er would be too much too long. One two three four five. they're for you. Be careful mind because you're going to land on top of those bricks so be careful. Woo I'm being careful. You're being careful are you? I'm glad to hear it. Two three four four six eleven eight nine two four four quick quick quick Yes but it's not It's not hurting but it's disturbing you know? I cannot bear the Confu wha a tooth? Yes. Sure you don't want to see a dentist just to make sure it's all right? No I don't want to see a dentist. You're a silly girl. No I'm not. Yes you are. No. Yes. Don't argue. Could you put her blanket in the the seat just so that they don't get little bits of cotton in it she might um breathe them in. Thank you. No! I'm not being You're not being what? I'm not being silly. You're not being silly? You are being hit you. I heard my my overlap when you him? Charlotte take it away please. I heard my laugh just now You heard? I heard me laughing. What on the tape? I think I must do something. What you can't do anything you can't change anything about your voice or your laugh. You are what you are that's it. Yes I can. Yes dear. under there Sorry about the way I laughing. I can't sit under there. Huh? Everybody has their laugh that's it. You can't change it can you? No I can't. was snoring the other morning Huh? Adam was snoring one morning this week. Charlotte came in in the morning what's daddy doing? she stood there went Charlotte please will you stop climbing. One two three four five Oh dear! Oh Amy. I think it's going to rain. It looks pretty horrible doesn't it? two my cup is here. I know what we can do. When? Tomorrow. What can we do? Yes if we go to Croydon Hmm? For for come back cause your pram is you don't want to come back by train because you're afraid of the steps. No not afraid of them I just don't want to Yes I know what you mean but yes er but we can go But they're stairs there. They're stairs? Uh. Going up Stairs up to get out there Charlotte! You get down It's even worse You have to climb up steps to get out of that station. Oh! I think. Any way it would mean we'd have to walk from Thornton Heath. Might just as well walk from Croydon. Come here. Charlotte! you come your lunch please. That's a bag of rubbish darling. Don't touch it please Would you come in the lunch please Charlotte? Leave her it's not going to do any harm It's grapefruit. It is not. You've found another drink now have you? You've got drinks everywhere again. Down here. Good. What's that that was orange is it? I don't give upstairs to grapefruit. You didn't like it? Put on there. Put on there. On there. It's strange because when she was just with you she like it. Down here down here You just like If you put it in her cup. I come up. Yes. That's the difference. I never put it in her cup. She always had it out of my glass. That is a She'll eat or drink anything if its off somebody elses' plate or out of any body else's glass. Mum! Mummy! Yes Charlotte. But you know Whee! better? When she touch she like it but I when I give her Hmm hmm Mummy! Mummy! Charlotte! Come here. No. Please. Please. I'm sorry darling I'm sitting down and I'm comfortable. I don't want to get up. I can see you Oh dear! Huh oh dear. Would you like to do me some do something for me? Yes. Under the table here there's a book. There's a big thick book. Can you see it? I can. There's some of your comics on top of it. In the no in the middle here look. Can you bring me the book? Postman Pat. No underneath that there's a book. A big a big A big book Nay Thomas book. No darling no. I don't want Thomas the Tank book Yes No sweetheart I don't want that. It's not what I want. That's the book I want. Here you are give it to Mummy. Can I have her for a minute? Thank you very much Joelle pardon? Can I have her for a minute? Here you are. I read it And don't keep don't keep moving. Charlotte could you give it to me? What? I give it to her because I just think she's going to give it. Darling A man one. Number Give it to Mummy darling please What do you want to watch?. Yes. So you don't want any more biscuits then? Oh you can make some biscuits as well. That's not going to use up everything is it? Oh right let's have a look what can find then? Oh! What? What a big one. That's what she likes. Biscuits and cookies. Pastries pies She's Oh such she's lovely. Of course she's lovely. All babies are lovely. You you you know she she can to be friends between you and me. Of course. You don't smell of milk do you. No Currant cake. You know the thing I don't like? No I don't know the thing you don't like. When you have some er parties or something like that. You just don't care too much. Not you but others and you put some icing. Icing. Icing. You ruined it. And sugar. I don't think I need that. Probably not. she done some she done some chocolate cake and she put in er chocolate icing. And I think so many Too much? Yes. I I usually can't be bothered Hey hey hey hey what's the problem what's the problem? Something's warm You'll manage large cakes let's have a look at small cakes. Why don't a large one? No these are little individual ones rather than one little big one. Lamingtons A bit of crackle. Em Small cakes or rice cakes. Oh my goodness me. We used to make those when I was in the brownies. Rice crispies. Oh I done that chocolate Chocolate Erm erm some Wicked. Ginger whirls. Muffins. Ah muffins Some erm Double chocolate muffins Um mamma Chocolate I'm not. If you see chocolate chocolate muffins you won't be on a diet will you? You know. No I haven't got any erm oh yes I have no no we have there's something missing. What? Those little tiny pieces of chocolate that you can buy you know those little dots. What? You just bought some Yes I know you need that as well. I've got that in the cupboard. Chocolate? You need ordinary chocolate. Cocoa powder which I've got and the chocolate dots Yes but how much you how much use how much ordinary chocolate you use How much? Four ounces. Four ounces. Hundred grams. Hundred? Mum mummy. So you have a big big thing of chocolate It's too much chocolate. No no we can't have those they're too naughty. They're too naughty. It's too much chocolate. It's too You can't do ordinary biscuits? Muesli muffins Coo! Three ounces of Muesli, wholemeal fl no you see it's all of flour. Kiss kiss Blueberry muffins. What about vanilla muffins? Is it Tuesday? Just a minute. Well we could do this one and we could just put more or less plain flour again. Typical the only one with self raising flour is the chocolate. blub blub blub. Beg your pardon? Mummy blub blub blub. She's done a poo poo. She's dribbled that what you mean? Look we could make some chocolate ones it only makes twelve. Look you can see that? I can You make a naughty Charlotte please don't don't go noisy. There you are. We'll make some chocolate ones. This is if you Charlotte will you come away from please. Noo noo Charlotte. Well don't make a noise then. Oh come on now you don't Come here come here What's wrong what is it you want? She You want to sleep before lunch of after? Come on. Come on where? Come on. Look come on what? I don't know what you mean when you say come on. Come on mum. What do you want darling? Oh come on. Come on. Let's have a cuddle come on come in. Would you finish your sentence? Was that your saying? We can do some chocolate ones. If when you take her out you can go and buy some bits little chocolate bits Mamma my Sure? Tell you what. Let's see if we can get the chocolate off your face shall we? Lick the . Put your tongue out. Put your tongue out ah ah. Lick this lick lick it She won't And again Oh Charlotte well it's got some of it off. . Oh Charlotte Come on Mum. Where do you want me to go? I know what she would Come on in the kitchen. What do you want in the kitchen? Want biscuits. you want biscuits? But it's nearly lunch time. No oo. Yes. Come on Mum come on. No come on. Charlotte why can't you keep still? Because Come on Mum. It's I'm here for a minute please No come on. Please darling Come on. I know when she when she its usually when Mmm mmm I've got you. Come on. I've got you now. Come on come on come on come on come on What's mummy going to give you for your lunch. What would you like? How many apples have I? Come on in the freezer. We go in the freezer? We'll go and sit in the freezer shall we? Might get a bit cold though in there. That all right? Yeah Oh oh! Whaa! Whaa! I get cold. You would wouldn't you if I put you into the freezer. I don't think I will. Yeah. I'm going in the freezer. All right then bye! You come all right ? Yeah, yeah. Over these next few weeks I'd like us to be looking at some of the interviews that Jesus had with various characters, sometimes with an individual, sometimes with a small group of people, and just to see some of the things that we can learn from them. Because, although Jesus was speaking to the people there, his words were not just for them, but they're for us as well and these are conversations that we can well eavesdrop on and learn something, I'm sure, for our benefit. Sometimes it will be, perhaps, I trust, new things that we'll be learning or increasing our knowledge and our understanding of the Lord, sometimes underlining and reaffirming, er our faith in him. And so we must start off this morning with his, perhaps most famous of all interviews that Jesus had, the interview with Nicodemus there in John, er er chapter three part of which Elaine read for us earlier. This, the, the background I'm sure we're all very familiar with. This man, this religious leader, this pharisee who came to Jesus by night and as he comes to Jesus he, is full of questions, but Jesus doesn't let him get too many of them out because the questions that Nicodemus has to ask are not the real issues. And you know, so often you and I, we have questions that we want to bring to the Lord, if only was here in person, if only we could sit him down in the front room, how many things we would have to ask of him! How many questions we would pose him with. I don't think that he would get us too far in those questions. I think he would treat us a little bit,o the way he treated Nicodemus and come in pretty quickly, and deal with the real issues. Because so often the questions that we ask are not the real issues they're not the really important things. Sometimes it's just because we want our curiosity satisfied, and that was obviously the case with Nicodemus. He says, we know that you're a great teacher, you've come from God otherwise you couldn't do these things, and er, he was undoubtedly gonna go and ask, and start asking some questions from then, but Jesus comes straight in and he really deals with the issue, the real problem in Nicodemus's life. He says, you've gotta be born again. Don't bother with the questions, let's deal with the real heart issue, Nicodemus, you, have got to be born again. And you know, for most of our questions the answers lie within ourselves, and when we deal with certain basic issues most of those questions become or answered or they become irrelevant. It must have been about the turn of the century the er Times newspaper ran a competition and it wa , the competition was a very simple one, difficult to answer but it was very simply put it was asking for people to write in letters and essays, and features and articles on, what was wrong with the world. Now, you and I could sit down, as many people could then, eighty, ninety years ago and write a whole lot of things with the world, but it took the, the Irish writer and whip G K Chesterton to really put his finger on it. He wrote what must have been the one of the shortest letters of all time, and he wrote back to the editor of The Times and he said, dear sir, in answer to your question what is wrong with the world I am yours faithfully G K Chesterton. And that was what was wrong with the world. It wasn't the things it was people. And Chesterton says, I am what is wrong, not with the whole wide world, but I am what is wrong with my world. And what is wrong in your world? And what is wrong in my world? As individuals. It's not other people, it's not the problems that surround us, it's not the people that we have to work with or the conditions in work, it's not the next door neighbours, terrible though they may be, the real answer, for you and for me, lies within ourselves. And that was what Jesus was showing to Nicodemus. Nicodemus, you have got to be born again. Now, we don't know how long the interview went on, it's quite likely we have only a snippet of the conversation. But however long or short it was, Nicodemus certainly must have learned a, a tremendous amount as he listened to Jesus. And let's just, as I say, eavesdrop and pick up some of the things that Nicodemus learned, and things that we can learn. The first thing that he obviously ma , was made aware of, was that the Lord Jesus is always ready to meet the need of a seeking soul. Jesus did not grant Nicodemus an interview because he was the leader or a pharisee, because he was a leader amongst the Jews. That wasn't the reason why he had a Nico , why he'd a, an interview with Jesus. Turn over a page or two and you've got the account of the woman of Somaria. They're a long interview as well. You couldn't have got two people more different. One so righteous and religious! So self righteous and religious. An observer of them all! Another, a woman who was living, and had been living for many years in, in continuous adultery! Jesus, receives both. He receives all. He is always ready to meet the need of a seeking soul. And, Nicodemus comes to him in hi quest. He doesn't stumble across the Lord, it's not a chance encounter, he seeks out deliberately to meet with Jesus. He makes, he rearranges his life. It was no early night for him that night. Because, by night he comes to Jesus the whys and the wherefores of that doesn't really matter. Folk make great issue, perhaps he was frightened of what others may think? That doesn't really make any difference. The how we come to Jesus, the why's we come to him are not the important thing, the real issue is that we come to him. And so Nicodemus he comes to Jesus. And he comes, with his needs. And the tremendous thing is that, Nicodemus may not really have been too sure of what his needs were. He may have come as a very self- satisfied person, after all, socially, he had made it. Religiously, he had made it. He was one of the top dogs of the people! But Jesus sees right into him, and he sees perhaps, needs that Nicodemus himself is not even aware of. That's why he hits him right where it hurts! And that's the thing that Jesus does. He hits us where it hurts. He doesn't come and swi whisper sweet nothings in our ears. He doesn't come with a lot pious platitudes and and charming words to make us feel better. But, he, he comes a , and really hits us hard! Says, Nicodemus you have got to be born again! But me? Now, first of all Nicodemus doesn't even understand what Jesus is talking about but even when he does, how he must of hurt his pride, but I'm religious! I'm a good man! Now if you had said that to some of those folk outside Jesus, I could have gone along with that. They need a new start. They're a terrible bunch some of them! Oh! I could tell you about some of their sins! I've heard about it. Nicodemus you, must be born again. You have got to have a new start. Jesus is always available and ready to meet the needs of those who seek him. He says, if you seek me, you shall find me! Let me just read you a verse in Psalm a hundred and seven. It's in verse nine, he says For he satisfies the thirsty soul. And the hungry soul he filled with what is good . And Isaiah takes up the same theme in the fifty fifth chapter. And he says there,Ho! Everyone who's thirst, come to the water. And you who have no money come buy eat and, and come buy and eat! Come buy wine and milk without money and without cost . And it goes on, later on he says,Seek ye the Lord while he may be found. Call upon him while he is near. Let the wicked forsake his way and the unrighteous man his thoughts, and let him return to the Lord and he will have compassion on him. And to our God for he will abundantly pardon. God the Lord Jesus is always ready to se , to to receive folk who come to him and to meet their needs . Then again, Nicodemus would have learned and discovered that the Lord Jesus is infinitely more than a great teacher. Nicodemus comes with those words we know Rabbi, teacher, master, we know that you are a gre , that you have come from God, as a teacher. Well you're, you're right as far you go Nicodemus but you haven't gone very far. Yes, I have come as a teacher. I've come to declare the father to you. I've come to make him known to you. I've come to tell you about him. I have come to declare the kingdom of God, that's it among you! I have come as a teacher. You are right as far as you go. And the people recognize Jesus the teacher. It says, the common folk, they heard him gladly, they listened to what he said because he taught as one having authority! But oh, Nicodemus if you only see him as a teacher you only see the minute part of me! You're not seeing the real me! I am not just a teacher, I'm so much more than that! And Nicodemus wasn't long with Jesus before he realized, and recognized, and discovered that the person he was talking with was not just a teacher, there was something else about him! I always thank God that Jesus is a teacher. And he instructs us in the way of life! He instructs in the ways of God! And, the most tremendous teaching of this, of of the whole world have come from the lips of Jesus. Far greater than, than the teaching of any professor! Far greater than the teaching of any great religious leader! Far greater teaching than the teaching of all the, the other teachers put together! The teachings that come from Jesus. If we study his teaching. Study the code of ethics and the philosophy of his life. Read the sermon amount. You'll find that his teach is in, is in realms above all other teaching! His teaching of purity,i , it's standard, it's authority. But, throughout it all we see Jesus as not just a teacher, he must be more than that. He is first of all a saviour! He did not come, he didn't say, I have come to teach you! He says I have come to seek and to save, that which is lost! You see, our primary need, the most important thing that you and I need in our life, is not a teacher. We need to be taught, but that's not the first thing, that's not the most important thing. The first thing we need is someone to save us from our sins! You see, we can, we can know all about God and still be sinners! All we are is intelligent sinners, that doesn't make any difference to us. It might increase our intellect, er our I Q might go up but we're still sinners! And Jesus came first and foremost as he is, as Nicodemus learns here to seek and to save that which was lost. Se , we need someone first of all to save us from our sin. Because, no matter what we learn we cannot be educated into the Kingdom. Even, Christian teaching will not educate us into the Kingdom of God! We can go through Sunday school and bible school, we can sit in church year after year, after year and take it all in and learn great reams of the bible by heart, and be able to explain this and that, that does not make us, a Christian! We cannot be educated into Christianity. We only become a Christian by the radical work of grace in our heart, the bible calls it salvation, conversion, being born again. Then again, Nicodemus discovered perhaps a strange thing, in a way, but he discovered that, that which is born of the flesh is flesh, to use the words of Jesus. And Jesus, in saying that, he is showing to us, and teaching us that, flesh can never be changed into anything else. We cannot alter the nature with which we are born. We can't make ourselves any different. We can try and improve we can try and better ourselves, but at the end of the day we are still what we are. And David says it for all of us, I was born in sin and shapen in inequity. The apostle Paul, he says, I know that in me, that is in my flesh dwells no good thing! He says, I am a sinner! That which is born of the flesh is flesh. That which is sinful by nature is sinful right the way through it's existence unless something radical happens to it. It's not gonna change itself. It's not gonna evolve into something better. And by, becoming religious and observing religious, er, practices does not make us a better person. We're still flesh! We were born in sin as as as David said, and shape in inequity. And there's been this moral downfall that we're all part of. The result of the sin of Adam and Eve there in the Garden of Eden. Now, we can dress it up, we can beautify it, we can make it look pretty, we can make it look respectable, but it, we're still sinful flesh, at the end of the day! But Jesus doesn't just say that which is born of the flesh is flesh, but he also says, and that is which is born of the spirit is spirit. And he's saying that that flesh can have something, that human nature can undergo a miracle! It's not an evolved process, but it is a dramatic, radical, miracle! And be born of the spirit. And become a new creation! A new person! Are we only born of the flesh or are we born of the spirit? That was what Nicodemus was learning in his conversation with Jesus. Then again, Nicodemus discovered that God's way of salvation is not reformation, or religion, but it's regeneration. Jesus described it as a spiritual rebirth. He says this over and over again in verse three,unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God . In verse five,truly I say unto you, unless one is born of spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God . In the following verse,that which is born of the flesh, is flesh. That which is born of the spirit, is spirit . And in verse seven,do not mar what I say to you. You must be born again ! You see, it's not simply an outward change. It's not simply making certain er, superficial, and external decisions. I'll go to church more often, or I'll read my bible more regularly, or I'll really make an issue about praying, it's not, it's not that at all. It's not an outward change,but's it's a new birth within! It's a new nature within! It's the old dying and the new taking it's place, that's what Jesus is talking about with his new birth! It's an impartation, a receiving of new life. His life. The commencement of the life of God within me. Within you. Not just patching up the old broken down life and saying something like this, from now onwards I'm gonna go to church, I'm gonna read my bi , I'm gonna be a Christian! That's not what it's all about. It's coming to re God for ourself , and allowing his life to come in and be our life. You see all those other things are outward. They're things that you do, they're things that I do. I can decide that I'm gonna go to church twice on a Sunday, and, once, during the week or, however many times, and I'm gonna spend an hour doing this, and an hour doing that, I'm gonna go round and do good deeds and help people and help and all the rest! I de I decide that and to a large extent I've got the power of choice and the will to do it. My willpower may not may not strong enough for me to do it for long, but, I've actually, I've got that choice, to choose to do it, it's something I do. And Jesus saying this this this this salvation is not something that you do, it's something that is done within you! From the moment of it's birth, in fact poss er, even before it's actual birth, not long after it's conception, now that that babe has a will of it's own, and it will exercise it and will use it. The first way it uses, of course, is before it's birth when it starts kicking around and, changing it's position. And from the moment it is, comes out into the world it's will is expressed again and again and again! The one thing it's will had no decision in had no part in, didn't produce was it's actual birth. And you see, the miracle of the birth, of the new birth, is something which we do not do! God does it within us by his spirit. I decide, I I choose, I will come, I will receive it, but the actual giving of that life, tis the same as the giving of the life to that babe, it was no choice of it, it was no, didn't i , wasn't determined by it's own will. So that new life, which I receive is from God. All I do is to receive it. And so, Nicodemus learned that it wasn't by reformation, trying to make himself better, or by being religious, but he need regeneration, that's what regeneration means. A new birth! A new And he didn't understand how it could happen. And he just sees the physical aspect of it. He said well how on earth can a full grown man enter into his mother's womb again? He said, but this is ridiculous! I don't understand it! It was way beyond him. And Jesus says hang on, you're supposed to be a religious person, you're a teacher, a ruler of Israel and you don't understand things? Listen! He says, I'm not talking about physical things! I'm talking about something spiritual. You've gotta let new birth within you allow God to bring you to life, to new life. What a shock it was for Nicodemus to learn this truth. All his outward experiences. All his outward religious observances. Jesus saying it hasn't done a thing! They might have been very good, but they haven't given you this new life, this new birth John, er Nicodemus, you've got to be born again. You see, God's way of salvation begins within a person, not the outside, but within. Right at the very core, the very centre of our being, the very heart of our personality God implants that seed of a new life. And we're born se again spiritually from above as Jesus says in this chapter. Just as twenty, thirty, or forty years, however old i er how old he was, Nicodemus was born physically just the same as you and I were born physically. The nature of our parents. So, in the new birth we are born with a nature of our, of our father, our heavenly father the, God himself. Then again, Nicodemus discovered, that this new birth was absolutely imperative! There was no, there was no choice, there was no option, there was no alternative. We've already read them, you must be born again! Except, you are born again you can't get into heaven he says. You can't kno , you know nothing about the Kingdom of God. We're left in no doubt about the matter. We simply have to be born again if we're gonna be saved! And are gonna go to heaven and dwell with God there forever. I'll touch on that just er, in a few moments. Another thing that Nicodemus learned was that no one is too old to be born again. In verse four,how can a man be born when he's old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born, can he ? To this question Jesus answers, yes Nicodemus, you can be born again! You're a full grown man, doesn't matter how old you are, you might be an aged man, a teacher in Israel, he certainly wasn't a youngster, you can, Nicodemus, be born again! You see, it's not er a natural thing, but it's a spiritual thing. And so it doesn't matter how young we are, how old we are, it doesn't matter what our background is, it doesn't matter what our cultural experiences are, it doesn't matter anything of the, of the outward about ourselves, every single one of us can be, and must be born again! And then, just one final thing that Nicodemus discovered he discovered that there is only one way to be born again. In verse fourteen and fifteen, Jesus uses an illustration that Nicodemus would have been very familiar with, it was back in th in the ancient history of the nation of Israel, when they were wandering through the wilderness and he says, just as Moses a , way back there on that occasion lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, there had been this plague, if if you have plagues of serpent, there had been this plague of serpents, and they'd bitten the people and they were dying like flies and Moses comes to God, he says what are you gonna do? Your people are dying! They're suffering! And God tells him, he says, you make a serpent of brass and put it on a pole in the middle of the camp so that everybody can see it they look to that serpent of brass, they will be healed. Now, the serpent of brass didn't heal them. What was to heal them was the act of obedience to what God had said, and faith in what he had said. And so, Nicodemus would have been familiar with this story, and Jesus says as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so, must the son of man be lifted up, but whoever believes in him may have eternal life. He says I'm gonna be lifted up on the cross. I'm gonna be raised up on a cross just as that brass serpent was put on a pole in the camp of, in the middle of Israel, of the, of the camp there in the er, there in the wilderness. And just as everybody who looked to that serpent on the pole was healed, so I am gonna be lifted up on a cross and everybody who looks in faith to me, and in obedience receives my gift of forgiveness, they will be saved! There's no other way said Jesus. It's only through me! Jesus said, I haven't got any other alternative to give to you Nicodemus. You've come with your questions, you come with all the reasoning and your great intellect all your religious arguments. Nicodemus, the important thing for you is you have got to be born again! I've got nothing else to offer you. I've got nothing else to say to you. You've got your questions and of course I could answer them Nicodemus I could tell the why's and the wherefore's of this, and of that, I could give you all the details and all the the the things that you want to know but, they're not really important the real issue for you, Nicodemus, is that you have got to be born again! There's nothing else that I've got to tell you! Because there's nothing else that's important for you to know. And the only way you can be born again is by looking to me, cos I'm gonna be raised up on a cross for your salvation. Your religious life is not enough. Keeping the law is not enough. Doing all the right things is not enough! Your background, your pedigree, yes you you you've been brought up in a, possibly your fa your your parents, they've taught you the right way, they are thrilled pieces, or they were if if they ma , they may well have been de dead by that time, but they were thrilled to pieces when you as a pharisee became a teacher, and a ruler, a leader amongst your people! But Nicodemus, the important thing is not that. That doesn't stand you in good stead. That has not got you into the Kingdom of God. You must be born again! We sang, a little earlier on, a song of er Wesley's and back those two hundred and twenty, two hundred and thirty years ago, when Wesley was preaching in this country and in America, there was another preacher every bit as famous then, perhaps not quite so famous today, preacher by the name of George Whitfield and George Whitfield, he went around and he was preaching, and he preached on this, this text, John er,i in John three,you must be born again ! He preached them again, and again, and again! And there was a lady in the, in his congregation he preached to masses, to thousands and thousands of people, and she came to him, she was, she was annoyed, she was a rather er, well-to-do lady, and she was offended at this this preaching that she had to be born again, and that people had to have this new birth experience. And she came to Whitfield, and she said Mr Whitfield, why is it that you keep on preaching on this, and you keep on using this text, and keep on saying you must be born again? And Whitfield said, madam simply because, you must be born again. As far as God is concerned there is no other alternative. We can change the terminology, we can give it different words, we can talk about making a commitment to Christ, we can talk about salvation, we can talk about conversion, the word, they're not the important thing it's this act of a new birth of receiving God in Christ for ourselves, believing that he died for us and are receiving this new life. And that was the lesson that Nicodemus learnt. What, no matter who he was, for all his background, Nicodemus, you, me, we have to be born again! Not something we do, but something God does within us. Not on the outside of our lives, but right in the very centre of our being, the very heart, the core of our personality, this new life, this new birth to the only way that we can know God and receive his forgiveness. So simple and so wonderful! So glorious and yet so very real that if we by faith, and if we have by faith looked to Jesus Christ dying on the cross for us and received him, now, not there of course, but risen, and ascended, and glorified is promising that we ha will pass, or we have passed from death unto life. That's what it sa , what being born again is all about, is new life from death to life! We're gonna come around the Lord's table now and celebrate what made it possible for us, and we're gonna sing that little song, it's in the front of your erm Songs of Fellowship, it's number five. Reminds us that the way that God has reached out to us is through his love. In that verse, the closing verse that Elaine read for us, that God so loved the world! He so loved you and me that he gave his son for us! And this song, number five in the front section of the Songs of Fellowship reminds us that there on the cross as Jesus dies for his dad, great demonstration of his love for us! Oh I'm sorry! In your one it's, in that red folder erm number thirty one, sorry! Here is love vast as the ocean! Loving kindness is the flood! When the prince of life our ransom shed for us his precious blood. Who his love will not remember. Who can cease to sing his praise! He can never be forgotten throughout heaven's eternal days! Bob Henry, you must be aware of some of the criticisms which were levelled at the companies which were put out by arts associations, where they say really it's very self-indulgent and nobody much goes to see this particular type of dance group. What do you say to that? I would say that it is our job to let people judge for themselves and have the opportunity to see controversial productions, whether it's dance or drama, and unless people have the opportunity, and unless the companies are given the chance to perform their own thing, that drama and dance in the long run will die. But given the shortage of money, ought not some of that money go towards preserving some of the great companies who are now under great pressure? A great deal of money does go to preserving those companies like the National, the Royal Shakespeare, etc., and even in this region we have three regional repertory theatres who generally present very establishment shows, very middle of the road productions. What sort of audiences are you getting? I mean what sort of percentages do you reckon you're getting in the theatre? They vary tremendously. They have dropped very much this last year. Not just for the type of shows that we are directly responsible for, namely the small scale productions, but also for all theatres, particularly in the South East and in the South. Could that be an indication that you aren't in fact giving the public what they want? I would dispute that. Certainly some of the productions that we are responsible for, as I have said, are controversial, and some of the public might not really want them and might dispute their validity, but I think what it is an indication of is the fact that people are short of money and have to make quite sure that they are getting the best value for what they are paying for and they can't afford to go to the theatre as regularly as they might have done in the past. But given that you're really in the market place situation, if you have goods which nobody wants to sell then eventually you're going to have to grind to a halt. Well that is an argument that applies to almost anything that you might be trying to sell, whether it's a commercial product or whether it is an artistic product, and in any case, as I have said before, we also support erm a great many organizations and projects which should, and will, appeal to the general public. Bob Henry, thank you very much. Tim Cornish, as Film and Television Officer for South East Arts, how do you think the new film categories are going to affect the sort of things that you're putting together? I don't think the new film categories are Just a second, sorry. Bob, you mustn't rustle. It's all right. We'll start that again. Tim Cornish, as Film and Television Officer for South East Arts, how are you going to be affected by the new film categories? I imagine by that you mean the new censorship categories from the British Board of Film Censors? I think by and large that will have no effect on us at all, since most of the independent films that we're responsible for tend to go out under club showings and do not therefore need to have certificates. Anybody who saw ‘Radio Radio’ might have written that off as a rather self-indulgent film. Do you think it gave a fair picture of what local radio is about? I think it gave a fair picture, yes. I was a little disappointed with the film; I would like to have seen it erm more analytical, a little more hard hitting in terms of looking at what a local radio station does. erm I found it self-indulgent, I suppose in the sense that perhaps it was too long and the film maker, I think, was reluctant to erm chop some of that material, but I think the great advantage that the film had was that it reached a very wide audience by being shown on BBC South. But given that you're using public money, ought you not to have a tighter control over this very aspect? I would dispute that entirely, and I think it's very dangerous for arts organizations to get closely involved in matters of detail in artistic control. I think the whole nature of artistic practice is that the artist must have a considerable amount of freedom. A considerable amount of freedom — I don't think anybody would dispute that — but you are actually using public resources, you're using erm highly expensive equipment, do you really not feel that in that situation some measure of at least financial control is essential? Oh certainly, there was a great deal of financial control. I mean the film was given a budget, given a grant, and that film was shot within that budget erm there was no problem there. Tim Cornish, thank you very much. With me now is Chris Bates, who is the local Arts Development Officer, which includes community arts, Chris? That's right, yes erm community arts, ethnic arts, touring, low cost building, creative play. It's quite a wide brief, actually. Now to many people community arts is a red rag to a bull because there is the feeling that a lot of these things start off quite splendidly as voluntary organizations, and suddenly they've got their fingers in the public purse. I think a lot of local authorities in particular have now found a tremendous benefit that can accrue from investing in community arts work. I think that the major difficulty has always been that erm oh I hate this. I can't handle this at all. Well, that's exactly why this course is being held. Let's start the whole thing again. Chris Bates, part of your brief involves community arts. Now many people think that this is an area where public money is really being squandered. If you want to run a nice, happy, little group of amateur people you should be allowed to get on with it, but public money shouldn't be spent on it. How do you react to that? Well I think it's, public money should in fact be spent on it. It is invariably one whereby people have applied for those grants, they have gone through all the normal assessment criteria, which apply to any other art form, and if we feel that they adequately cover all those sort of areas then we respond, but as public body we have to be aware that groups, in applying to us, must fulfil the conditions that we lay down. What sort of conditions do you lay down? Well we erm, in the sense that they must be legally constituted. I mean there are a number of different forms that can take erm they could be a co-operative, registered with a friendly industrial society, or have a board of directors, but there must be a legal personality to the organization in order for them to receive public funds. Well that's extremely laudable, but I don't think on the whole the public are too worried about whether the thing is legally constituted. That would obviously be your worry. But, from the point of view of the public, I think they see money being used to put on bare foot dancers leaping around and so on. I don't think the public view of community arts is a very good one, do you? Well I think it's been misrepresentative, misrepresented, sorry, in a variety of ways. I think the most important thing about community arts is that it's arts for the community, and invariably one is not approaching it in the same way as one would market, say, a show at the Theatre Royal for instance. It very much involves participation and therefore the appeal for the broader level in terms of the public is less important for those groups that actually participate. Now ethnic arts is really playing for a very small number of people. How can you justify using very tight money in a public situation for such small pockets of people? Well we can justify it very easily because we have a very, very small pocket of money to actually invest in ethnic arts. Our total budget for ethnic arts is in the region of about fifteen hundred pounds which, as you can probably appreciate in a region representing four million people, does not all us very much flexibility, but we also feel that it's the type of event which we are prepared to support, which is also important. I think that we look very favourably on schemes whereby an education process is involved erm where there are workshops and performance, but it becomes a total package in itself — it's not just a performance for an ethnic minority, but it's one that represents the fact that we live in a multi-cultural society itself. Chris Bates, thank you very much. Thank you. Chris Cooper, you're fairly new in your appointment as Director of South East Arts. Have you found that you've got a lot of things to change and alter? I've found that it's a little early to make judgements about that just yet. I've found that it was very necessary for me to take some time to get a grasp of what is a very complex situation and it would be rather foolish to jump in too quickly. Now you must be aware that whenever public money is involved in anything to do with the arts, that there is always a lot of criticism about how that money is spent. Have you come across this criticism as you go round the area? I would disagree with the premise erm I've found that where public money is involved in the arts there is very occasionally public criticism of what we do. For the vast majority of the work that we do there is very seldom any criticism, and in actual fact there is mostly a clamour for more activity and more and better work. But the bottom line of that is always money, and your money is public money. Yes, that's quite right, we are in the area of dealing with public money. We are accountable to the public in many different ways, and we always have to keep an eye on the fact that the public are looking at what we are doing with our money and local politicians and the community's representatives are always anxious to talk to us about what we are doing with that money and we must be prepared to answer any queries or any questions on our activities or those activities of people that we're sponsoring. How accountable do you feel that you are to the public? I mean the public is going to say we must have houses, we must have roads, must we have arts? Well I don't think it's a very easy question to answer erm the Association, and I as the Director, feel accountable through a variety of channels. We're accountable directly through an Executive Committee and a committee structure, which does involve representatives of almost every local authority in the South East, and we are clearly accountable to those representatives through that particular system. We are also accountable through the press and local radio in terms that all our work, unlike many other professional bodies, all our work is constantly on show and critics are invited to see and assess and attend and write up the work that we fund, and those criticisms appear in local and regional press daily. We are also accountable through the box office in terms that your public will not come and see events and pay their money if the events that you're putting on are not of sufficiently high standard, so the accountability runs in three our four different channels and each of them are quite potent and quite immediate in terms of their impact that they can have on the Association. Well, you say you have representatives of local government bodies and so on, but really how much do you think they contribute in that situation? Surely an Association such as yours is basically run by the officers, it is a certain amount of window dressing having local councillors, if you like, sitting on your executive. They don't necessarily contribute in terms of the creative ideas. Our object is to get the creative ideas from the artists erm and from the artistic groups within the community. What accountability rests on is that those particular representatives of the local authority have the opportunity to ask any question and have it answered at any time during the three hundred and sixty five days of the year in which we operate, and they are in a specially privileged position to challenge, or question, or talk about, or have answered — any particular point with regard to the work we're involved with. And to that degree I would say that we're accountable through those particular members. Christopher Cooper thank you very much for talking to us. Thank you. Frances Smith, as Crafts Assistant at South East Arts, what are your actual duties? They're fairly varied, but they're twofold basically. Firstly, to look after the professional craftsmen living and working in our area, and secondly to make the crafts more easily accessible to the general public. When you say crafts more easily accessible, I think a lot of people regard craft as a sort of extension to the Women's Institute. How do you answer that? Yes, I think for a lot of people that's true and I don't denigrate that because I think a lot of good work goes on in the Women's Institute, but what we are particularly interested in is in the professional craftsman, the craftsman who has trained for a number of year to produce extremely good work, and what we try to do is to make that work more available to the public in a number of ways. Firstly through exhibitions and our support for exhibitions organised by other organizations, and also by taking crafts into schools so that we are, if you like, exposing the younger generation to the best in the craft world, in the hope that in the future they will be the buyers of good craft work. But you must have heard the criticism for things like the pile of bricks, the pile of carpet felt. Don't you think that that does enormous damage to the general public's view of what arts and crafts are about? I think for a lot of people, yes, it does, and though the pile of bricks obviously comes under Art with a capital A, crafts perhaps has not suffered quite as much, but I think there is the feeling amongst people that if they get a pot which is, shall we say non-function and won't pour, then is it art or craft? And I think there is this dividing line that there is the pure craft where the object is functional and is made for a specific purpose, but is beautifully made, but there is also the craftsman who crosses the barrier between art and craft, who makes beautiful objects that are perhaps non functional, and then of course you're in the controversial field. It's also one of the most exciting areas though. But anything of this nature, surely, is very subjective. I think all art to some extent is subjective, but I think that most people would agree that some things are so beautiful that everyone agrees that they are very worthwhile and shouldn't be destroyed. Sometimes we find things like the Moan Lisa, which have been denigrated and used in lots of different ways, but some people when they see it are still overpowered by the beauty of the object. Can you really hope to marry the practical arts to what are essentially, I suppose, for want of a better word, the arts of beauty? I don't really see that there's such a dividing line, because I think if you're a housewife and you have a beautiful milk jug, which is perhaps very simple but has lovely lines to it, I think even if it's only subconsciously you get more pleasure out of using that than you would a rather cracked, grubby, plastic jug. Frances Smith thank you very much. Thank you. Richard Moor, as Deputy Director of South East Arts, you have to work very closely with a number of people, some trained, some untrained. What sort of problems does that bring you? Well I think there is, there aren't many problem with the trained people because they've been trained in the same areas as oneself and therefore understand what you're on about. I think the problems chiefly come with those who are not trained, or who are not familiar with the area of work you're trying to promote. How do you get over that situation? Well hopefully by sort of tact and explanation in equal doses. One has to try and explain what it is we are about and why we're doing it and, if necessary, perhaps point out a few distinctions that may exist, for instance, between the professional and the amateur scene, not that I like using those words because I think they're fraught with all sort of potential misunderstandings. Now you say you try to explain why you're doing it. Let me ask you, why are you doing it? I mean, what is the object of the South East Arts Association? Well I suppose we have to start with what we're doing. I don't know whether you want to talk about the whole area of our operation No, we've only got three minutes . Well, the visual arts shall we say? I mean, what we're trying to do in the visual arts is to spend what limited money we have to produce a better situation for the visual artist and for the public who gets pleasure and enlightenment from visual arts than exists at the moment, so rather than just prop up the status quo, which is what is would be very easy to do if one just kept the pot boiling so to speak by giving a few grants to artists here and sitting at the centre of a spider's web in Tunbridge Wells waiting for applications to come in to us and then responding. I think we need to be a bit more positive than that. What about people who will inevitably criticise you for a large canvas, half of which is black, and half of which is blue, and which is labelled ‘Blue on Black’. I mean can you really justify supporting somebody with public money who's producing the sort of work which if I, as a totally unknown person, produced it would be thrown onto a bonfire? Well I think there's a world of difference. Yes, I think one could justify that without too much trouble. erm The basic difference is between abstract and figurative art, say. The problems with most people, if I can generalise, is that they have been brought up on the notion that a picture has to represent something and that to them means something recognizable, like a tree, or a landscape, or a windmill, or an oast house. So they get thrown when faced with a canvas which represents nothing other than form or shape or colour and they get thrown because they haven't the vocabulary, it seems to them, to respond to it, and they feel the need to respond verbally. But I like to look at something and know what it's saying, I mean what is, what is the canvas ‘Blue on Black’ actually saying? And you are using, and I emphasise again, you are using public money to say it. Now what you want to do in the privacy of your own home in terms of art is one thing, but if I'm using public money I really need to be able to justify it. Well I think an abstract canvas can say a great deal. It's a contemplative thing and what I would recommend you is go to The Tate and sit in the middle of the Rothgo Room there, which is actually a series of canvasses, as you probably know, of a sort of reddish hue, entirely abstract, and you are surrounded by these in a small, fairly dimly lit room, and spend half an hour there and see perhaps whether they work on you. Most people, unfortunately, think that a picture should have an impact. They will give it perhaps two to five seconds of their time. It's very interesting watching people move round an exhibition. They will stop, for probably about five seconds maximum, before any one work. Well that's no way to respond to the work of art. You certainly wouldn't get away with that with a violin concerto or something of the sort . An artist has perhaps given as much time to a single major work as a composer might have given to a sonata or whatever it may be. Richard Moor, thank you very much. Right, then I'll just put it down here Nine teas Your not actually shooting till Tuesday are you? No,. What time does he . Twelve ninety till three. Pass the plate, er fillet of cod, meat and potato pie. Just made it. Gravy's in there . Can I put the spare cup down ? Hm, sure . Thanks very much. . . That was . Right, got to for you as well down there. . Shall shall I'll keep the up here is that safer. I would if I were you,def definitely. Another one . . Right, so, that's all yours then . mine, right . And erm, get all your disposables. Well I can leave them outside really, when I've finished one,I'm going to wash all the cafeteria itself as well. Hm. Cos that's a bit grubby. What time do you think it's the best time today? Cos I don't want to take a load of stuff in and then have to move it here, from A to B to wash, you know. I'm . Erm, there's not , there's not so much pressure on there with that can change them next week. No, it's true. So just do what you can and when. Hm, that's right because, did you cancel er Hannah? Hannah? No I haven't, er, I'm going . There's a in the restaurant, somebody's in here as well, so I'll probably be able to just . . Yeah, more in here, so somebody's. . you never know when she's here. No, that's ok. I want to er clean the floor before I take a load of stuff in, and I'm not moving it twice, then there's gone into a clean floor. Yeah, yeah, well that's I'll get, I'll do the order first . Cos I wouldn't know everything your giving me, I'm putting it into them little er. Yes. at the back I'm not leaving anything out on top here . Oh no , no don't. I'll, cos Dennis want's that erm, window locked up as well. Which one? Store room. . So they can't see in. Oh yeah, well that'll be easy But, I'll do the order and then you can get all the stuff down there and it's finished with . Right . So you you know . Yeah. Erm, are you going already? Yeah, I'll just do an order for the stores . His gone, he, he he gone away today . Yeah, Phil I'll get it today, and leave him it . Right. I'll put this order in with erm Fred. Yes, I won't bother taking it upstairs er mine. No, this I'll go straight down there. Yeah . So if he wants to leave it I'll can come . I . . Great. . Yeah, it's on my er notice board. Ta. Hello. Hi you're just in time, help yourself. Oh dear he's after money. Hm. Oh dear, isn't it always the way? I've got another little order here for you. We don't carry any dish clothes. Oh right, I'll get those from er Bookers then, quite a big order. Like to go straight, nine, four spoons. Spoons, sacks, napkins, which ones? Dispensers or er green. The others if you have them. Green. Yeah. Olive cups and clear cups. That's all for the er. Stage cafeteria. Hm. If you just leave all outside the door and we'll, then when we get. Ok. Right. you down on ere . On holiday. That's is, order some more cups . There is only one problem, I've only got one box up here. Well, if there's if there's anything worth we'll gonna be. What about lids? . What about lids? Lids, shouldn't need lids, makes it, cos it's actually for the stages. I know it's ok on the order today. Right, if there's, if there's gonna be, if there's gonna be looking a bit iffy, if you'll let me know on any item, and then I'll get, I'll, and then I'll box . Oh, we can get them,so there's no problem there . for Christ's sake. Me, oh you've lost me, oh what a shame. You on ere somewhere, where are ya? Oh no, I can see you, you can't. Go on then, how much? Twelve pounds. Who put,. Well, that was that Tim. Oh Tim, right. . Right. Oh yeah, you're out of luck, I haven't got that much money on me. Monday? Well no, I'll get it, I'll probably got some upstairs in my coat, so, when you come up for your cup of tea or whatever, or your bottle of milk. Yeah, alright then. You try and give you money, there he is there. Oh there he is there I'm going blind aren't I? What about you? I'm not on there. You are. You did, you put it down on there . Yeah, your . You kicked up and said and then you put down . How much have you raised then and collect it all? What me or everybody? You. Me, about three hundred and eighty seven quid. How much was it your supposed to contribute ? Hm, your ticket in there. er, I needed eight hundred pounds, I . . I've got nearly over five hundred quid , then the petrol and then food where you couldn't get food donated, and new tyres for the bike before I went so you could only get on the road . dunnit? Rather you than me. Well I collected the less out of everybody. Oh right. There was er, twenty six riders and three pillions, the pillions are responsible as well for there money. Yeah. And er nearly twenty thousand pounds was raised.. Who was there. Eight, sixteen. So some people actually raised over. Yes. erm, other people like me, didn't make enough. No. I don't know the final figure until the presentation which is in July and once that's done I'll have a certificate for . Plus I made a video of the entire . That's not my .. It seems .. Yeah, did we, is that not on the quotation? Ok, normally what we do is to charge erm, erm the lowest charge is fifty pence per mile ok, so that'll be from the time it leaves here in London till the time it returns. Yeah I can recommend some people certainly. er well grips are a little bit more than that, there all free lance but on the approximate daily rate in this country about a hundred and forty five a day yeah, yeah, there open to negotiation because they're free lance sure ok lovely, thank you very much, thanks, goodbye. Hi Mark, erm, I've got a problem with my dishwasher. . Well no it's, it's falling apart basically. Throw it out. Well, yeah, no, it's, it's just that I've, there's several screws and bits and pieces missing. Right. Right, Harold's been sort of trying to have a look at it all week long, but he's, he hasn't really got time. Right, so erm. Can I get somebody in? or Yeah, guess you'll have to, is that covered on our maintenance?. With who? I don't know,service . You've only, I think the only contract is the British Gas one. Have we not had a with the er. Yeah, British Gas are doing the ovens. Right. But er, he's, he's er, they don't electrics. Yeah, well. But I had Hobart in yesterday and there willing to do a maintenance contract on everything, if you want. Are they? Might be a good idea for a quote. Well there gonna be a quote through that's it so er . That's a good idea . Let's get a quote . All right, yeah,get someone in. Right, I'll, what I'll do I'll try and pick up on the local electrician or something. . it's not an electrical problem. No. You see, it's just mechanical, it's just, somebody's got these really fine screws. Yes. What have you. . Yeah. Yes . Yeah, great, cos it's exactly, there's nothing wrong electrical. No, just . Just literally falling apart. Well I'll get Peter to look at it, if he can't do anything, get someone in. Great. Ok. Ok, that's Mark. Hey, oh lovely . Hm, hm, hm. hm , oh what? Speak to it. What, what is it? It's a microphone. Yeah. You're being taped. Oh you're taping. . I'm not with it today. It's your lucky day. . Are you gonna black mail . It's no it's for market research telephone ringing for company . Are you sure? Are you sure now?.good morning. gonna get some . . . Er I think actually his on A stage, no B stage, no A stage here, sorry, I'll try, I'll try for you, hold on. . Yes, here we are. Hi.. My, that was quick .. Who? Oh yeah, good. Oh, who's that? That's what I intend to use in the eh. What's name. place. telephone ringing Well yes, I mean. Put the feed in the it holds it. Oh. Same system as they use on the aircraft. Yes, who's calling? Hold the line. That's a good idea innit? That's the horrible bit there,. . Oh. be here in a minute.. . Oh god, mind you there was a fire last night, and the fire couldn't tell, just by looking at somebody, what they'd been up too, you get. . And it's, it takes photographs of it. What's it like?. Oh lovely. Yeah. I'll try that one next. . . I would hope to you know . I think there names are already . Do what? There's no names or anything involve. Oh, I see, oh. It doesn't go any further. What's it for then? It's for market research . Something to do with . Oh I see, Oh well you've got a London one here. Alright. . Well I'm not as cockney as some. No. Try not to be . See you later . Is this all that first order? Fred? Yes. Great, thanks. Strange isn't it. What? Strange isn't it . . Oh lovely. Oh that's, that's haven't been blessed. Yeah,. These are the unblessed cartoons. Oh well. You haven't got . You haven't got any holes Ok that's, do you want to do some toast? Do toast? . . And sausage and bacon by the side of it, it's not for me anyone . ed.2 O Mushroom roll on brown, apple juice, cheese . Brown toast with what? . Mushroom roll on brown. Just mushroom roll . Mushroom roll, cheese roll, juice and porridge. . That's one, eight, five. And Beef roll, bacon and mushroom toasted sandwiches, right. What does Unigate say about them? Well erm I mean they put a whole package together for me. Yeah. Which is er supplying a lot of stuff. Yeah. Which is all very, you know, the price is across brochure. No, I don't they even got the milk. Yeah. But, they can't touch the other prices. Well, yeah, the thing is the what, also the range of stuff that they carry, you know, it's all actually er. Yeah. All here, so er, well, anyway, I'll give erm er, I'm gonna give them a try next week. Yeah. See if it all turns up alright. . Well that's alright, I'll take, your alright, I'll take it. Next Monday. You wouldn't want any milk only next week er. . Deliver the eights, drop in the end of next week. Yeah. Then I'll. Yeah. Confirm it. Then I say no, no, but I've got a feeling I've got the price of milk pint. Yeah. Well you see, see it's not all down just to the price of milk, you know it's, it's the whole package . Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah. But erm, you what I'll do, I mean, pop in next Friday. Yeah. And er, we'll see that if they've, if they've come through with the goods all right. . See from that. Ok then, oh what'll I owe you for me bacon . Your alright. Oh lovely. Yes. Can I have two plates of bread and butter? Two plates of bread and butter. I'm . , there you go three teas. And three teas. . There you go. Ta. Yes, yes, yes. The egg/bacon please.. It's alright Harold Egg, bacon, tomatoes/mushrooms. . Just one? Yeah. Do you want to serve? . Two seventy please. Thank you. More tea? Tea, anyone want tea? Six teas please. Six teas, all on your er. Yeah, all on . Ah . There's go . Thank you Six teas.Two seventy Two fifty sixty two seventy Great, thanks. Thank you. Teas paid for.. Paid for these teas? Two pound please. Two pounds? Aha . I'll have two and two of toast please Brydie. Oh,Rusday. And er, a bit of bacon please gov. . Well done bacon.. Your tea's there. Oh. Got to pay for them, er .. No . One eighty.. Drop of tea there. Two sausage . Two pound and five pence please. Thank you. You should've had an Expresso coffee. Seen the price of them. imagine Dennis's face. . Cup of tea. Cup of tea Dave. Tea, and a milk, pint of, you got semi? Think so. Mushroom/Ham. on there without a. Yeah. Bloody milk.. Two bread and butter. Two bread and butter, eh, your going the whole hog today. Two twenty two. Have you got ya have you got your bread and butter? No. Y h1 B Great, thanks. What was it? Twenty two, you were paying for all the teas weren't ya? Yeah. Thank you. Great. Coffee to go.. Lovely jubbly. What are they twenty? Do, what? It's arriving today sometime. Is it? What's that thing on there? That's a microphone. What for? this way. Why've you got a microphone there? Well, were doing a candid camera in here today. Oh, is that what it is. . Na, it's for market research. I'm recording you.. .. Right, thanks Fred. Your on holiday after today? Lovely. Hi. Hi, I've got er two porridges. Yeah. Two toasts, er toasted bacon sandwich and a buttered roll. Two, four, five, thank you. Two. No, it's gonna be You stay away from my you've got the whole floor full of butter. Hello, are you being done? What's I didn't . Alright.. . Oh, oh, bargain, bargain job today. There you go. I suddenly acquired that, I dunno where I got it from. Don't say nothing shh. When you place it back . Oh,. He's doing market research. Oh I see. Oh alright . Ah, spoil sport. Hello. Oh, ho. Good morning. Good morning, fine thanks. Wired for sound are ya? We are indeed. Eh, er, steak and roll please. Steak and roll . and butter please . I'm sorry, can I take it away? Oh, right cheese roll. You say a cheese roll or roll?. Yes please .. I think I've put erm, a couple of other things on your bill. Right. Cos I, I wasn't too sure. For Dennis , is that alright? What's that? Breakfast. Right, this is all . I know some of the last lot, they were all on one thing. I don't mind that, do you think you could take it or something cos otherwise I'll never remember whose had what. Hold on, what I do is label it, they all come to me for signing. Right, oh right what. So. What all of them? Yeah, if you could sort of, if you could put, put erm, if you could date them wherever they were so I can just remember, alright, it'll help me. Telephone till tomorrow, get after it would you? Leave my body alone. . Telephone . Sorry. I answer the telephone down there . It's a joke, shall we get you an intercom system? No seriously. Seriously I am . I mean eh , I haven't got a key . . said leave my body alone.. might'n I? Do you think you make, think you can allow her to eh. Yeah, I . . I think she's persuading me. Mind you if you can take his toast down, take his cereal down, then I'll come back . Of course. Is alright with you? . If we eat under the table over . No seriously. The best place is to hide it underneath. No, it is, it's just for market research for a dictionary company. Yeah, but, yeah, even so. Well no, I suppose the, use some sort of analysis of what er, what words are in use. Time . boys on the beach today. today. is, no he's not on the . Your get him on it . . It's not a bad idea, it's, get quite a good conversation in there. In where? The loo. Lovely . . Yeah,Outside . Who's that? Fred. Yeah, he was in first thing. I think he's got One, two, three, four, five, six hour more. Hm. . Well I've got an early finish tonight. I really wasn't . made me a cup of tea . . Has he finished yet? Has he finished? Well tomorrow. He'll go back , but there given it again. He's gotta miles and miles back next week and then he's going back to following week to be lift driver. Then he goes back to er for a week or so, then his back at and there really treating him, but of course he won't . no that .. I what? . They ain't got a union. . . No money. The thing is, it's er not right to set somebody who don't want the job and then just pull them back with them it's rough grade money that's what . Why's not, it's not a sack is it? I mean it's only a contract. to fill his contract. If the contract's finished, that's it. Bill hasn't actually finished his permanently in the drivers, but they can't so he choose the one that's got to go, but in the meantime there's these two other guys they closed down, and er, these two buyers they got redundancy money, they drive and they can go through there and still work so they've got the money but still work at so there coining it in. See what I mean it's . Right, now, instead of getting rid of them two and making them go back to Mars Bars, then back. I should think I mean, one of the guys he does the and they don't even want to do the word . Our monies going to go up and down like a yo-yo really . . . Right, I'm going sort something. . Yeah, remember last . done the work and they just, just a couple of months ago we got a letter taking him to court. They adjourned it, cos there gonna fight 'em, Solicitors for er they, they go guilty. Cos any other person who has just not applied and have a couple of points be able to take you to court. Na. Solicitors there's no way you can't not fight it, in the beginning you can just go guilty and he said hang on minute let me just read it through he said no, he said you've got to go and do it. That's July the seventeenth, he could loose his licence . What they charging him with? Erm,uncare, undue care and attention, yeah. But it's no way, I mean it was a really wet morning at quarter to seven, it had been raining, and he was right behind a lorry, and he, he, the lorry went to go one way and the he didn't go back because he knew he was going one way and the guy was going the other, he just started to go round to go to the left and bike was just there, he had no way of seeing him or he . Was it a catch two situation . . Well she's already booked . We had that well she's claiming for loss of earnings, think she's broke a leg, we don't know weren't allowed to take a photo bike she had a brand new. Well it's all happening I'll tell her. . What do, you have to go to police station . Last time we were there we had to bail Darren out.. Well the Solicitors turned round and said to him that there's a twenty five per cent chance he'll lose his licence, but then he'll get there erm, but most he'll probably get is about a month, and then he said, well surely your job could find you something to do in that time,has said, no licence, no job, so what he had to do was to . Can Solicitor . , he's gonna fight for his licence . How's it going downstairs then Kate? . Yeah. You've got everything squeezed in? Lord, squeeze any more, I thought we was gonna a. . up at that stage,I was going in there to make something and I saw .. Bye, bye Pete. Were not gonna get a sink in that bathroom,. Bye, bye. you're going early. I go this way . You can't, you can't put a waste pipe that. Gotta be good, can't take liberties. So I'll have to use those sinks over,those big ones for that. Hm. And er, get a hand wash basin put in the other side. I'm sure . Well, I can get you hot water. Hm, yeah, that'll be good. Couple of those instant ones. I mean I might be wrong, I'm . I can see they never get clean again, the sun clean them. Yeah, are they alright? See the mess room and the . Yeah . I go near them, some jump out and catch you .. Surprised if they . They will. Mind you, I don't think business stays as quite as it is. . Yeah. His gone of . Has he? I don't blame him. His . His must be good. Well, I'll think there should be plenty of work for him, he's quite . . Well, plays a knight doesn't he? Was, I hope Lyons Maid turn up Like me to give them a ring? No, just said today What's the betting they can't find it? Betting . . in the back room. stick them up for . Yeah, well I don't think the window cleaner helps so I'll get it screwed. Come on applied for new . See Peter in the engineering shop, gonna fix the dishwasher for her?. Well Harold was supposed to be, he hasn't got time. . What Peter? No Harold.. Harold, I had a word with him. Oh you did. Hm. . Well he just can't . Well no, have you seen her there?. Can't wait any longer. Just bring empty . Cassoulet Yeah, I know, well what's that? French casserole. Load of rubbish. What's in it, Aubergine, Courgettes. Aubergines, Courgettes, beans erm. You don't take . Lamb, Pork. Oh, that sounds nice. Little bit of spice. Can I have a splodge of that. Oh. Yeah, do you want anything with it? Now Arthur, trying to make cup of tea for you. Whoops. . Wow. I need a take over bid, yes, oh dear He's feeling guilty about the tea you see. Thanks very much, oh how many coffee's do you want? One. Your so nice to him when he comes over,nice. Take away . He does what for ya? He collects our post for us about half three and we all bring cups of tea and all sorts. Oh . Really. . down, yeah. Does he?. Does he? Yeah, he comes round to give me a clip round the ear and give me hassle . Does he? So . Alright? Fish and chips and a tea. One eighty six please. One eighty six, there are. Did you get the invoice . Erm, yes, floating around somewhere. Oh. It has. Did you take my pound the other day? Did I take your pound the other day? Yeah. Probably. I think you did. Yes, yes, I did . . There we go, sign your life away. Thank you. . Oops. Oh, oh, that confused her. Sorry, ruin your . Thank you. I'm not addressed to anybody. Oh, well, come here, will, where are we? A nice bit of quiche. Yeah and half a portion of chips. Ah. Oh, I say you poor thing. Yeah, I no, something else want, Richard promised me something special today. Did he? Hope mine wasn't broken. It's for market research. Yeah, what? Market research. Yeah. Do me a favour. Seriously, for a dictionary company. Doing ana analysis of the erm. Do they have bollocks in it? . With one L, two S's. . So eh, well it's just a, seems worthwhile. Oh, good, got any more? . You could add some colour . Yeah. Oh dear. Suppose . Treacle sponge, yes, no. Oh. . ? o 3 c Within reason. Yeah . . I've a kept that on the thingy, took it down the on the thingy. Straight out. On the account. On account he ain't got the right money. One seventy eight, alright? Thanks, right, Dave. Coffee flavoured drinks. What's, what's that flavour drink? I said two coffee flavoured drinks. Oh coffee, coffee flavoured? coffee . Do you like it? No, it's not. Do you think it's a bit weak? I think it's . Ooh, dirty weekend in . Is it weak for you, look Gary, you like everything strong don't ya? Oh,. . No, it's just the eyes have grown that's all. Her what? It's just your eyes that have grown. You haven't got any eh, sausage, liver sausage for you yet. I've ordered one. You've ordered one have you? Hm. Better order two. next week. Aha, starve Oh. They put the load, the cheap bits that go inside of the er front. Ah that's it . Then you get the, then you get the expensive bits So what is it, something like that? Backing . No, these are the top opening ones we want. Top opening ones right here. Those. All these ones. Hm, hm. Yeah, right. Oh there not too bad. No, well, there are, they work as a bain marie. Yeah Right. These are the ones. Stick them there, just take them down. Sealed up, whether it's hot or cold they retain the temperature. . You see, basically what you do, you just take them out and we put salad bar, all we do, we have one of those and one of those. Hm, hm. Plonk it down, take the lids off and there it is. That's it is it? You've salad bar's there. . I mean, it's what they do on . Well you said these . Colour here just to box that Oh. White a grade type port of hell of a lot to it . No, trouble is you, you can do anything with it. . But, it's just the price. Do you get any discount out of it? Not on the amount were if you think the health's, I mean the Health Service buy sort of forty at a time, erm, so, you never know. No. I, the thing is to get, what, I mean what you could do is say right, well, you, we, we don't mind putting your name up, bit of advertising cos it's gonna all the film world's gonna be seeing it, so all the location caterers would be able to use them. Yes . But they do, there's, cos they put a charge on orders below so much. There we are, twenty pounds surcharge on orders below fifty. Fifty one . Well, we do yeah. Well that's basically and for the people who are just buying an odd box. Yeah. But I would think, I mean, ideally we need four I would think in the first instance er two of those and two of those and then the inners. Have they got, it's the, in this company I, I've never used there equipment before, but it, it seems. Alright. It seems better than er the ones I have used. There, there lids are certainly a better idea, built with better fasteners cos there's. I know it's ages since . No, the er, the Reuberwerk one, the German ones, the fasteners on them are a have plastic clips. Yeah. But once, if they've been washed in really hot water they tend to distort. Oh, right. But these, these are metal frame works. Hm, hm, yeah. And they just pull down and there all flush, so they don't get knocked. Hm, hm. Very er. They look alright Will be only one stage away from doing locations then. Hm, yes,. Huh, yeah, huh, huh. Right, hold on. Well. There's someone . Yeah, that's it, if a, but what we had used in that, used them in the er cafetiere down there. Yeah, hm, hm. So, er, and they can be used on the stages as well. Hm, hm. I've never seen the the, I think there just about sa , oh that's the impact proof, they have to say that ere a. Hm, yeah, how, how . Well, hm, hm, hm. Obviously intact err, just if somebody kicks it or accidentally drops them or something . Yeah, I've seen them , I mean, I've seen them sort of dropped from about six foot. And they've stayed intact. Oh, oh, nothing happens. Yeah, oh well that's not too bad. No, I mean they're they're not going to take a truck running over them . No wouldn't it? It's stage off. Yeah, they've now cancelled the cafetiere. Have they? Yeah, they've been told to cut down on the spending. So there coming up here are they? Only er, only, they're only paying for lunch for those that they have to pay for lunch . The afters and the . Yeah, the, the , it's the usual, they're doing every cut back they can, they're still paying, everybody gets breakfast, afternoon tea and . Yeah. There all. A bunch . There all cutting it now, so. . Cos the Producer you see, he won't have, he won't have the books in works. Hm, yeah. and er the company have told him his got to a. Cut back. Cut back. There goes the cafetiere. Hm, hm, yes. Mind you, I mean,he he still still a solid weeks work. Oh well. Yeah. What's the name of the restaurant . Ah, it's Italian, ah, Giga, Gigero or something. Oh. Are you going? Are you? Probably. How about your wife? No, nobody's invited. Aren't they? No .. Oh . Which is a bit naughty, but. . That's the way it goes.. Funny were sort of company isn't it? Hm, myself I don't know I might go, might not. Depends on . I suppose . It's not worth . . Why? Is the baby better completely? His, yeah he's a lot better than. . Children . Hm. . He tends to play you up thought if he gets the chance. I bet the very good. Hm I assume Dennis is still enthusiastic about this, after his seen the price. What is it? Hm. . About It's good equipment. . Looks very well designed, you know there's nobody that makes them in this country. Really. It's all imported . I'm working up know , I always come up and watch telly.. Most of these salad bowls will be nice for that counter, won't it? Hm. you will sign if you get excuse me. Square ones . . You get a lot more in the square ones. With these you seem to .. These look nice and tidy now. These are tidy. pay for them So everything starts Monday does it? Yeah. Oh . Yeah . Didn't he fancy being a . who Darren? Hm. He only drives me, me up the wall. You look . Trevor's put him off . He'll need encouraging to do it. Oh as he said something, he loves driving, but he hates driving in London. He really does. . We, we always no if, if comes in, we always no if his been in , we go and hide. . Do you both come ? No,. . Well yes he goes,. We go up there sometimes on a Saturday night, cos my brother and his wife . Yeah, so erm . . Erm,street, you, you know where that big church is, by the light of big round a about road . . .. went up five pounds, my sister done her nut till I told her how much ours was. . Get more expensive. that was really a lot of money about twenty two pounds . How's the .. Lovely, yeah. I haven't actually do Darren has, Darren has. What is it you've got for me? Perspex,columns. Oh from, which one are they from? Where there . Frank Cooper's , thank you. Oh yeah, Frank Cooper's that, C P C, freebies. I see. What are they for? Spence in sauce of course. Oh I see. I'm surprised they sent it by courier, he said he was going to drop them in, mind, there's another one, a big one to come, this is only a small one. Lovely. money in it?. Portion pack. Oh . Yeah. It's all packaging. .. Hm. . This can all go straight in the bin this with all this lot. All that for this little thing. Yeah one . Probably right, must be another part to that.. Nothing else in that. No . Hm. Nothing else to it. No, nothing. So you just tumble them all in there and sort of fish about try and sort out which one it is. . Yes. That's not much cop is it? . can't be right. If your gonna put . It's not like it was in the picture. No, your gonna put those little sachets in there, there should be a bit wider in there so that you can take which one you want. Yeah. But, even then. Well it was suppose, the one on the picture was in different levels. Yeah. No this isn't right, there's something wrong there, that's not complete. No. How do they come down, just in er flat box don't they? Hm. Yeah, well you probably can get them in there and you in there and get the thing out again. It's pretty badly made in it? It is badly made. cost more than anything else,. Well I would of, I would of thought that , I mean if your gonna take something out that that's sort of size all well and good, but I mean it won't even dispense will it? No. Oh well. I mean you you need something where it's gonna pop itself out. It's all welded round you can't get it out . Well that's it, it can't be right, it can't be right, because what you would expect in there, is another sort of perspex piece that comes at an angle like that. Hm. And you put them in, you know whatever it is, all one side. The feed, the feed in. And they would force themselves to the front all the time. Yeah. That I could understand, yeah something that was sort of that shape, even if it was only just at an angle , but it, I would of said that was much to big for it. Hm. Those little sachets, unless of course you've got a divider in there that takes two different types, yeah Oh one. Perspex column dispense. Well, well that is . Urgent dispatched. Something definitely wrong here. And there's nothing else in that box at all. No, only the packaging. answer. No. Oh well, it's for free. Yeah, but, why have free things is there useless. Hm, we'll find some use for it . Just about hold a box of tea to pull the tea bag out of it, won't it? Hm. But even then it's at the wrong angle, you, you mustn't, you shouldn't put your hand right inside. Hm. That, that avoid that sort of thing doesn't it? Hm, it's not terribly smooth either. No. And that's direct from Frank Cooper is it? Yeah. . That looks . But I would of thought there'd be an inside of a lid for that. Well, yeah. A lid or something to keep the muck and . One no doubt the rep will turn up again before long. It's certainly not on. I've got a big one coming a wooden one, supposedly I think of something.. It doesn't dispense at the bottom level. Oh. Funny thing. It certainly doesn't look complete. I'm sure there should be an inside and a lid to it. Hm, you'd of thought so. Well, will see when he turns up. . . . Eh, certainly not given much away. . Probably is. . Well ya, the Frank Cooper's part of er C P C, Knorr, all that group of companies. himself back to Rank Hovis . Well, yeah,C C P C are the parent company. Trading under various names. . And to send something out like that by special despatch. Yeah. More money then sense. . . Yeah, well never mind. Yeah. That's all your stuff for the . Yeah, yeah , were gonna get a trolley round and er take it, soon as lunch is set. We ordered everything so it'll be . Oh, oh lovely, fine. . Oh there's loads, plenty of stuff. . Oh, well. Oh, come up Sea bass today. Sea bass, that'll be the day. I had a nice one last weekend. What Sea bass? Where'd you get that? . A bit pricey usually. Yeah they are, they're quite expensive. Oh. But they were nice and big, fat and sliced open, grilled nice. Hm, oh they are aren't they, beautiful fish, but erm, I couldn't see anybody here paying. . My favourite fish is Sole. Sole, yeah. . I like all fish . I er. all sorts of sauces with it. No, I like the meaty fishes, but it's the, it's the price of 'em, it's just like buying steak. Yeah, I just say get a, a meal of a fish it's gonna cost you a fiver then ain't it,come down on by the time you've got a two, three of them. Oh. Eh they only . No, nothing on them. Your just paying money . Yeah, there's a company that er imports from the south seas, all the fishes and they just charge two pound a pound. Hm. Whatever arrives, but you just don't know what your going to get , no, it's flown in er trying to think it comes in four days a week by air, it's selling at a good price but you don't know what your going to get and I mean, you couldn't, you couldn't risk using it somewhere like this, so, it, the chances of selling it. with all fish especially with it's gotta be . Hm. Yeah, we use to do it on location. . Yeah. . You get all the er,selling different, especially, I mean if your going round with people for months. Yeah . You got you've gotta give 'em some. Bit more about it. Yeah. You know it just tastes the same. Yeah. That's it like a st stage is here, I mean it's very awkward to caterer for people down here and for the stages on the same menu. Oh, I expect it is,. Yeah. . I got, I got the information from those boxes. Oh have ya, yeah. As, yeah. . Except the only. . Hundred and fifty. . Yeah, but then you've got to put the containers inside them so that's another few quid, yeah, right, wait and see what he says. . No. . I think. . Good morning . I think Page's do it. Oh they do. Have you spoken to them? No I haven't. I'll give them a ring then and see. Well that was the only thing. Yeah . I think that's quite expensive that stuff. . No. Say hello. Say hello? Please . microphone. Bollocks.. No it's for the base. Have you got the letter . . Lovely, what is that for? It's three quarter, er market research, Collins Dictionary's. Yeah. I see. Great stuff. So it just records everything that's going on. Sees what people say, how good the English language is . I see That's a good idea because you er get everything in that depending on what area your in. I think, I think this place covers just about everything.. This one is most amazing . Hm. You'll certainly pick up some er colourful language. Hm. Local colour as well, when they talk about doing something and er doing it wrong oh. . given it some of that . Right, thanks the, some of the names they've got for food. Oh yeah. Yeah, I can't, Oh. They've got oh, can't remember what, we had one this morning for bake beans, I can't remember what it was. Trumpers or something Right gonna do, gonna get lunch in. It's unbelievable, they sent that by special despatch. Frank Cooper's, special messenger just to deliver that, in a great big box. It's a sauce dispenser Well madam have you got any comments? No . It was a good film that very good. Yes? Mm It's just a more and more I I think was just a Yeah. It's worse it is. yeah we need to we need to get busy again we do. Oh! Ho! Tut! Tut! Originally when I first went there I used to go twice a week. But that was seven pound an hour? Yeah that was very good. Janet figures that Jeremy takes the good out of it. what the what the pay is now here is what I was earning three years to four years ago We ain't all that I mean then the rate was four pound an hour. I mean I know you can get that here now. If you can get some of those Well I was wondering now Get a couple of What I did I started as an agency cleaner. That's how I got my job. Yeah. They er were recommended And most of the they were clean jobs. So you didn't have to go there or be there at a certain time . You don't do that here. We're we're being the best paid Not er two fifty an hour Not er some er If you just know somebody or somebody or something like you're probably just looked after Oh yeah I mean anybody that serves the purpose Oh yeah I mean it's obvious to them that anywhere. And er then they're not going to let anybody go there are they? Karen I used to take Karen she was married to that English fellow. He was he worked up in He was and she had two and Gary and Andy I knew I was leaving. And when I left her before I left the others . But the post and er the I left them I left the post Oh no! You alright. I don't like you keep looking at me. Give me a complex you know I got a nose or something get my glasses Oh yes! She's right. He's got a wart at the end of his nose and I couldn't see it. Who told you that? My mate Sue. I can't make out. I'm gonna go Oh yes! Mm? I didn't say that see the ghost Oh don't worry He had his leg across like that Mm That ice cream? Twos Is that in there locked up. Of course. Excuses she she couldn't find it No I said to her I said don't be so bloody stupid. a bloody menace. A load of cobblers he talks. Has he got another one Chris? Got one with my name in it He told me not to say anything so I didn't? He's got one with a name on it. I said I got my name on up in lights What was he when he had a key when I had this one? He knew the number It's hanging in there He knew the number? Alright Mm. The other one But he'd seen the number didn't he the silly old No he's got a number on if you look on the key. the number key number they call it the number er It's quite expensive to have a number isn't it? No you get em on numbers. Yeah you get em on numbers. The only the only lot that's really safe is an Cos the keys are all the keys are individual and they're registered. Yeah and er you've got to erm get a replacement key. You've got to go through the manufacturer. Of course you give them back to the client. Rather when Carla comes back Monday you've got to tape the with a bit of wood the window just outside the door because the bolt is on the same side. Oh he's off Monday? Put it on for Tuesday. Put it on the inside on the opposite one okay? Right. Lovely Is he off Monday? You have to pull it down or leave it down all the time because you always have to leave the light on there anyway You having trouble choosing Frank this morning problem was completely the way of the door these days you couldn't get in or out. Some what's his name Frank? Frank will you put that away please? Do you all stay to on er Monday? Oh A's on Monday No the people we've booked they've got the B and D B? B and D B? Do you want an ash tray? But I don't I don't know which one they're working on yet. You want an ash tray? Well what about A then? I haven't heard anything more. Really? Then then there's er what's the name what's the woman they're working on at the minute this lot the C C isn't it? See you later. Right. So it's only D that's empty for a walk last minute don't they? Yeah yes. Oh that's expedience. I think I'd feel it wouldn't you. I know I asked her I feel confused now. sorbet Well I knew it's I wonder Yes moving pictures are on D and E and A and M on C. someone here today. Mm It's not I mean too bad A B C That's just after Mm? That's just after A and M I think I've seen them before. They have been here before haven't they? Don't know. I worked with her husband apparently. Did you? He was a producer on American friends. Oh? That's He's he's a nice guy you know very good. Oh dear! Mm. Wonder what he's doing now? Should have asked her. Ask her next time she's round. Unless they've got another film going out here I think it's poppy due A and M yeah. It's a record com It is is it? A record company. Ah! I wondered Yeah. Quite a big company actually. Yes but I thought A and M are only a small one. No. I don't remember that name here before I know I know I know some of the faces alright. I remember the Carpenters used to be on here you know. Yes? I thought the Carpenters were on E M I Oh dear! There's something the matter with the screen Mm mm. No huh! he would be so cruel. ahead of you Why? ? He doesn't like it best. They used to be for a while. Yeah. You know he sounded a long time when he was saying it. gone quick isn't it? At that time he said he'd be wearing Where's he been? France I thought he was I'm quite sure you know. I must say I do miss that thing. Yeah I bet you do because it was used to that and then you stuck in one place. I was somewhere different every day. Of course. wasn't there? Do you then retired? Two more years of it then well You see as long as my wife had a career -it was only because of the little one. I mean while she had her career it didn't matter so much because I was there. As long as I was in the country I was home on a Friday night and them again till Monday morning. So I always had the weekends. You come to spend more time together than you are now because you go home in the evenings she goes out. Yes. I mean when you come she She's the just same as It's time for bed anyway. Well that's what I said you know it's just the same as it was it's not Mm It's nothing changed really apart from the fact that I get the time with the little one. Mm So Mm I mean that had to change or he wouldn't have known who I was And when he wanted to get some when he's old enough for money There must be as well as around some fifty now. Don said to come up early today if you want sandwiches. Just to order I mean. That was Friday. Sunday isn't it? birds of a feather aren't they really? I used to get down the pub on a Friday lunch time absolutely. Hope she comes Was one of the charges B H? Do you know what I was going through? Who was that? I hope not that I'm choosy. Don't expect Alan checked on you yesterday. Only cos I took you down there to the cafeteria. You have been talking about what we will be doing with it. Mm. And er he went off after er chasing after somebody somebody to see what they're up to They're putting your after layer and layer on that house. And you can't even go in it when you when how strong the What on the dolls houses? Mm. the room is red now. Oh God! Actually I'd rather have no house. Mm. Yeah I don't think it's very good for a kiddy. No no no no no But I think it looks more like a kennel. It's for mad dogs and Englishmen. there's plenty of that here. Oh God! But I don't know what they're going to do about that door but it's gonna make fingers in the doors. Who's that? Girls yes Do the other one have a door you know the the one at the shops? Yes they have a door. Half a door is it? Oh no it's a full door which is er when you open it it stays open and it's got er what do you call it? Handle or a knob or whatever you call it with all the proper kind of things on it Now our last run. Our last run. Another day nearly over, Another week Yeah over. Another day older and leaves are dead. I hope not. Oh! What time do they come with their oysters? I don't think they're going to turn up now. Don't look like it cause I think they finish earlier on Friday. Mm. I would imagine they sort of they couldn't find the place Mm and they've just taken them back If they don't turn up Monday I'll get on to them. Monday? Probably be here early. Did did they say they'd come today yeah? Yeah. Probably be here early Monday morning. So you're working on it some stage as yet? No. When you said no you made me think now Mind you everything's down there. Oh what stage? Is it a B or a G? Well this is it. We don't know. When er Colin's here one time. It used to be all in that little log book on the wall. What was on where he used to write it down and he said everybody's said never know. We'll have to get a board up in there. Mm In the office down there What for? For what's on on each stage. keep the bills down there and then we can just write it on there Yeah I think today has been quite interesting I think it will work a lot better once we get boxes basically Will it will it save a lot of hassles. Well you know everything can be made and if it's cold you just put the boxes in the fridge and if it's hot you just put it in and seal it up. Yeah I hope you realize that freezer's Who's going to take that down one of the boys next week. Well Mark's supposed to have organized Certainly not . So it can't be a very big fridge because they they had one here before and I was lucky to get four cartons of orange in there and one bottle and you've had it. And I can't get any bigger. Well And especially when in the summer months Yeah but what I'm saying when we got the thermal boxes you put the stuff in this big fridge er in here Mm and just take the boxes. What's he going to Well yes fair enough. Doesn't seem to be any objections. Really? What about er the other the other dishes enquiries weirder because Yeah Mm Really? Well the I didn't know they had so much money Well I know they don't mind me spending tens of pounds but spending hundreds of pounds is usually a bit Yeah out of order. But this is it they don't said no to spending ninety five pounds on a fridge yeah those boxes I mean it's gonna be six seven hundred pounds for those There must be That's not on They make some ? No. Oh yeah. What good will they do? Oh they're very good so long as Well they keep the soup hot or keep the soup cold. For how long? All Well er erm once they're opened they're alright for about an hour. Oh I see. Like it's like they're like thermos flasks. Oh yes. But they carry food. Oh dear! Excuse me get nothing. Yeah get cleared up. my head out. I be relaxing now just when I yawn. Oh. Do any of you you girls want any bread? I would like five rolls Yeah Four of those You had the last three. the fridge. Thanks. Thanks. Cos it's summer time that's today's. Yes but my head as well. There are some others You're just hard up you know Rusty! Do you want any bread? Yes. What? Brown. Brown? One two three? Two. Two Do you want any more? I'll just have a bit of brown. Thanks very much. Do you want anything else? Cake? Brown. Brown as well Do you know I don't think that's Have a brown Step inside love At least I left the light on. You're alright. Oh. Thanks very much Chris. But of course. very rich peanuts. Sorry? The only one . Well this is it I miss you so much. Yeah! That's what I thought. So you been in all day? Almost. We were all going to go to Mark called in because Daniel was ill. Why? Mm? Why? I just wondered. Ah! you know it takes time really. Mm. I know. It's eleven o'clock before I turn around after finishing the kitchen. Yeah. Guy's asleep. Guy! Steady at it! Mm. Oh dear! Oh! What's the matter? Oh Dear! Dear! Dear! You got a Oh! He's a nice man really. Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Oh but he is. Oh Guy! Pooh! He's had a sleep this afternoon? Mm. Mm. this afternoon. That's one of the other reasons I didn't er go anywhere. I must wash my hair. Got a piece of scone there? Thank you. He's making a lovely mess with that. Ah! Eh! Mm. See! There! Yeah. Yep. Ee! Mm. Mm. Ee! Been quite well today actually. Ha! He didn't have much last night. Only took about half his bottle. Mm. What about the banana thing? Had a little bit. Only half a dozen spoons full. Ha! Ha! That nice? Well he shouldn't eat much tonight. Mm He's eaten quite well. Ha! Ha! Hey Hey! Hey! That's it. Say hello Daddy! Yeah. Hello Daddy! Hey! Hey! Hey! What's the time? We got to get ready Mummy's got to get ready. Can I leave him with the Yes. His Nibs. Come on darling there we go in there. Do you want a bit more scone after that? Well I've left that there for him. It's actually a third of a roll. Er erm he's had an apple today er Mm. piece of pie. And er er you know most of that rice sweet you know. All right. Which one? The one with the strawberry. Alright. He ate most of it most of the rice anyway. But still no vegetable. But what happens after of being looked after you know. After a scone. You don't think he'll Erm. Ah!cup of tea. Oh yes! Not too warm is it? No. Oh was that nice? Ooh! Shall we move down here? And we get you some more scone? Yes. Yes we can. There you go! Mm. A little butter on it. There we go! Is that nice? Mm Oh! Lovely. Oh! Lovely. Mm! Mm. Aren't we getting in a mess with this eh? Oh! Ah yes! There! Here we go? A bit more? Oh! Is that any way to treat your bottle? Want any more of this? No. You ready to go down? Okey dokey. There we go tiger. There we go. Sorry dear Guy can have a bath tonight because the water's hot enough. Da! Guy can have a bath tonight? What? Well he doesn't well he can have one in the morning if it isn't? Alright. No. We'll see how you go eh? Alright. We'll see how he does. Won't we? Eargh! At the moment you're er just practising as demolition. Ah! Ah! Mm! Mm! Yes. What do you think that I think it's a good buy actually. Eh! No. Eh! Da! Da! Da! I don't know what I really don't know what you do with it. Der! Because it's very bad for parking isn't it? Well except that road up where we park Yeah. We're actually at the front of it. You know we're not going to get? not going to get people stopping that's the thing. I don't you're going to Stockport Da! Alright. Yeah. Have to be after the Bank Holiday. We'll just have to try and go over as we're taking her to see that property and er have a look around and see if there's any more. Geh! Yeah. Have a little think about it. it wasn't a bad shop. The thing was er a basement. Yeah. A large basement. It had a large basement under it. Yeah. What do you do with it? That's right. And what usage they'll give you. Mind you with the site as it is I would imagine it would give most usage on that. it's been settled and that was it? Well no. It's not a lounge area and that I suppose it was behind the shop area. price it's a No. It's no good to us. If it if it Dee! If it, well no. No. That's it. Huh. I shall chew it over. Eh! Eh! Eh! If you if you were going into I mean if you specialized in patisserie or something where you're chucking a lot of the stuff out. Eh. You'd be alright. That's a I don't realize the market value. Well it's not a good time to enter the market now. Not with anything as iffy as that. Well he could try coming down. Yeah. It's the only good thing. When you er what you need there. Tells me not many No. It's not it's traffic. Traffic lights. If they can't stop Da! Who produced who? Er! Right. Television. Business. Nothing was was moving was it? Prices have to come down. prices are definitely coming down. Alright. Mind you the best ones would be by er those ones they've been selling off to the highest offer. So much easier going for Haven't got a hundred and thirty for rent. Ordinarily twelve. They still Are they new? That one that one was eighty something. Guy! Bet you Perivale's no good to us is it? it was er good night. I'll see what if we come up with anything with Trevor if I go over this weekend. Yeah I can always take Guy with us. Be alright won't it? Ride you round in the car. Yeah. sixty-five thousand now. What? Barbara and Ian Increasing it? Mm. What? To sixty-five thousand. I don't know what is now Then he then he's been put on a short week? Yes. They're crazy? Ooh you got your orange juice as well as tea now? Have you? Erm! Eh! orange juice. Orange juice. Squash. Squash. Alright. We'll go shopping early tomorrow. Eh! Oh! Throwing it on the floor. Pick it up. Eh! Pick it up please? Pick it up and give it to mummy please? Eh! Pick it up! Pick it up and give it to mummy please. Pick it up. Cap your bottle. I changed his nappy goes to bed. Ah ha eh. Oh! Ah oh! Here's a good boy. Well I doubt he's not going to be terribly early tonight is he? I wouldn't think if he's had a good sleep today. regular time. Well he went down about quarter to seven last night. Between seven and half past. Eh? half past seven's fine. Yeah. Just don't want to push it any later. Oh yeah. Well he's always in bed by then. Aren't you? Ah! When did we get this? I don't remember this. I see you got this. Is his necessary?you know. Never go to the farm. Yeah. Then it goes to for Yeah No. What you do with it? You suck it do you? Ha! Ha! Ha! No you build it on the brick. What? He's got an orange one over there and then Oh! That! And a one somewhere and a green one and But what about this thing Well that bit's from the top. It's Humpty Dumpty. That's just the right size for Guy's mouth. He likes It's his dummy It is nice to chew on though isn't it? Yeah. Yeah can daddy have a chew? Ah thank you. . Oh what do you spy? I know what you spy. Apparently we are going to be busy tonight. Is this for Yes. where is the Careful. What a lot of admissions? Yes. Not admissions police cases. What a little girl? Oh she was there this morning. Oh. I would have thought with a child that it would be far better to be N H S. the parents joined. Er Oh teddy. Teddy bears. Teddy bears. Ta thank you. Thank you. Give it to daddy then. Thank you. Oh oh! Where's he gone? There. Ah. Thank you. Ha ha ha said the duck. that's right. It's the duck. Where's rabbit? Can you see rabbit on the card? That's it there. That's teddy. Where's rabbit? I don't think much to this. I put some spray on these wheels to try and get them to go. There's bound to be Mothercare. Yeah but they're not on straight though the Where? the metal pieces Didn't they er break it there? Did they? Yeah. Yeah I know they were is that what they were for ? Whose put it back together? I don't know how. I suppose whatever happened it's not right Far too these ones are alright. They've got these little balls in but there's nothing here. These are just straight up against the metal. The reason safety thing I think. Yes but you he can Thank you. I mean Guy couldn't push it. He can move it. I mean it's but it'll take time Yeah. It's eased off a bit now. I put that silicone on it. Perhaps they've put the nut back on too tight I mean I know they were fiddling with the back. That one? Don't ladder my tights thank you. I don't know. What's the matter then? All these kids come and wreck your toys. I don't know. Mind you they're only little ones tomorrow aren't there? So it won't be so bad. Do you want the telephone? Who you going to phone then? Who you going to phone? Say hello Nana. Whose nanny. Say hello Nanny. Say hello nanny. Oops then don't say hello to nanny that's alright. Is nanny alright? Oh yes. Oh yes! Which one? New granddad. The other one? Yes. No. Because I'm not Oh! Yeah when you've taken the pushchair down. What's up darling? What's the matter? What over the weekend. Well you're who's that? You going down on a weekend darling? Well I've got to give them forty eight hours notice. They don't always have a Saturday usually . So I'll just have to find out. Oh right Find out when I can take . Sit up then. Where's teddy? Where's teddy? Where's teddy? That's Teddy that's a clever boy. Where's the clown? There's the clown yes that's the clown. Funny clown. Where's the pirate? No. the train or what. Looks like the train I suppose. Yeah yeah Yes yes. Where's rabbit? Can you see rabbit? Where's rabbit? Is that rabbit? Say hello rabbit. Hello rabbit. Hello rabbit. Hello rabbit. Ah is this rabbit? . Do you know that card you bought him the duck? Probably something to keep. Please. Mm. Are you going to pick some sort of album or something then? Oh yes we've got so many We've got all his birth cards and all our cards then it gets Mm? What just thought Aha, Far more handsome. Now where're you going? Flowers. Look flowers. They're flowers aren't they? Pretty! There are more flowers there. Flowers flowers. Anyway I've got to go to work. Mm. Mummy's got to go to work. Ah. Dad! Dad. There's dad. Ah! That woodwork gonna be wrecked. They say it's going to be nice tomorrow. The forecast's good yes. Da da Got you! Got you! Got you! Ah ha ha ha ha! Oh you're going to play with your trike are you? Do you want to have a go with your trike? direct debit. What's that? Cry Oh darling. What's up. Bu bu bu bu bup. Why are we any better off doing a direct debit? Well only in so much as we don't get big bills. We're not going to get big bills. We don't anyway do we? Well this is an exception but I knew it would be higher because we've had the heating on so often. This is quite high to what we normally get. Is it? Yeah of course yeah. Oh I don't know it's up to you Well the price has probably gone up has it? Yeah the tariff's gone up. Mm. It's all gone up. Gas is gone up everything's gone up. Aye aye aye. Mm. Mm well if you feel whatever. Well probably er probably do that once once we Darling darling I've got to go to work. I've got to go to work. Come on sweetheart I've got to go and earn some pennies yes I have. I don't work much but there it goes. What look I've got to go to work. Why doesn't daddy take you to see the dickie birds? Do you want to go see the dickie birds? Go to the back window go look out of the windows. Did you see Yeah to get out. Do you want to go with daddy and see the dickie birds? Yes cos we ah yeah yesterday after you'd finished after I'd finished tried to feed him. As soon as he got out and about he was going round the house looking for you and then he just stood at the bottom of the stairs and banged until I took him upstairs and he could have a look round up there and then he realized you weren't there and then he came to me as a last hope I'm sorry I've got to go to work. Lets go see dickie birds come you stay with daddy let's go see dickie birds Come on He's getting worse Mm. He's very clingy towards you now. Where's the dickie birds? Ah there they are. They're There they are shush there's the dickie birds Oh Oh here . It's the birds. They'll fly away if you do that. Yeah yes they will. Hello birds. Hello birds. There there's my good boy. There's my good boy. Oh! deh! Deh? Deh! Deh! Deh!. Hello! Who's this Guy? Who's this? Hello! Ah! Hello! Ah! There Eh. Hello. Eh! Yes. Eh. Yeah. Hello. Hello turkey. Eh. Hello. Hello. Eh. Alright no we got to put your coat on now. Yes we have. Mm. Now come on. There you go. You're going to go to sleep aren't you? I can see this. Yes. So one little cap on. One little cap on. Ho! Deh. Oh. One little coat on. Come on. There we go. Changed his vest and all? Oh Guy. Oh Guy. We certainly bought the right coat when we bought that. Hey. Hey. Hey. Ah. Yeah. All ready. All ready. Good. Oh we won't have the hat on though. Oh when did you get this one then? Indian shop That's where I went Sorry? That's where I went they didn't have any. No the Indian up at Sudbury Oh is that where you went? Yeah. I knew I'd get icing sugar there you see. That's cheaper look. Oh yeah there's a bit of a difference isn't there? Hm. We didn't get any did we? I tried to get some pizza things as well. I couldn't get er I couldn't get any. There's your Bombay mix. What I thought was er what were those er Those You're going to use those avocados? You gonna do those avocado and prawn dip probably? What for the mums? Yeah for the mums. Mm Is it difficult? No. Not so long as we've got the stuff. We've got the prawns and the avocados. I don't know what else you need. Lemon juice I want to know what did you mean. Do you mean ? Yes some of that prawn and and er prawn and avocado and a little bit of mayonnaise just mixed together You want to use those avocados up? Oh yeah. I didn't get round to it did I? No not very good at all were they? No. Where's your drink? Where's your drink? Ah. You gonna tell mummy all about it? I'd better get baking in a minute. No it's just that I like to get all this out of the way. We can try and get some Do you see? Get those things out of the way first. Oh. Oh. Mm. Eh eh Oh Eh eh Don't let him eat until lunch time. Oh. Lovely Ta. Right well if I get tidy then before I wash up then you can start baking. Yeah. And ice the cake. I'll put your cake in there while I'm clearing up. So that's all right. I need the mixer to make the icing. in here? Yeah put the Oh what's this? No you can't have that yet. I haven't read it. Oh oh. You've got a biscuit Guy, you don't want another one. Two biscuits. Oh two biscuits. Mm. Is that daddy's? Thank you. Thank you. Mm. It's Guy's biscuit Mm. yeah. Da . Da da da da da da da da Yes darling . There's a clever boy. There's a clever boy. Yaya yaya da da da Let's get that one first. Alright. Hello . hello er ha ha. . Yeah oh he's all shy this morning. Yeah er she's working gone to work Yeah. This is it. You're a hand at that. Yeah. Oh It's not very nice weather is it? No it's not no. Not lived up to the forecast at all. No No. Bye ta ta. Ta ta. Come on. Go see your swing. Want to have a go on your swing? Yeah. Oh. There. Come on. Oh. Yeah Yes Doris, will you call him in Jack. Hello. Say hello . Oh Oh. You got your daddy with you. He's all shy this morning. Aren't you? He's alright? Is she well? Sandy? What oh Guy? He's fine he's fine. Yeah. Only I heard him crying a bit lately at night time. Oh well. Oh we've been trying to get him to sleep through. Cos he's been playing us up a bit you know Oh I thought he's a bit noisy but it's only just lately actually ah. Well it's since you know we had that party last weekend. Yeah. Since then. Yeah. That's right yeah. You know he got all excited and it put his system out and his routine gone so we're er Er? fighting with him. Oh I see. I thought there was a bit of naughtiness there. Yes. I thought there was a bit of naughtiness. You will won't you? Yes. You did better this morning. It's only when the daylight comes I think when he sees the daylight. Yes and the birds I think. And the birds and he thinks it's time to get up or something. Yeah And you want everyone else to get up as well don't you? Not half. But we kept you up later last night and you slept a little bit longer. So we'll just have to see. I think it gets a bad habit really there a bad habit really then. Yeah. You never get a chance to have yourself an evening to relax. Yeah. He'll want to be up until you go to bed more or less. Yes. What did . People have done it in the past and have regretted it. Yeah. You want your evenings to yourself really. Yeah. We've got to get him trained. Yeah you want to have a time to go to bed. Mine are always half past six seven o'clock Yeah. in bed er Well that he does he usually goes down at half six quarter to seven. Yeah yeah yeah But er Because they need twelve hours rest you know. He'll be back to normal again won't you? I just see him because I wake up as well you know with the birds as well. And it's the company you know to hear somebody else. Isn't it? You don't care do you? No he doesn't. You like it outdoors though don't you? Ah yes well You can't keep him in. Unfortunately the weather's not very good. No no but It says they promise the sunshine, but nothing at all. Yeah. But it says tomorrow's going to be fine. Oh Tomorrow's gonna to be fine. Oh! It's always tomorrow. It's always tomorrow. Yeah tomorrow. It'll be a sunny day tomorrow Ah We hope . Lovely. You keeping alright? Yes up and about. Mind you I pay for it afterwards when I do around the garden. I wake up of a morning and wonder what's happened. But there you. It's something that always happens. I mean even when you're young and play football or running there you know at the start of a season you know You get a few aches and pains So I know that when the gardening starts again I'm going to get backaches and cramp and everything else until er the body gets used to it again. That's it. Ah well I got some rhubarb for my daughter. Might go to lunch now. Ah lovely. Right you going to have a go on your swing then. Yes? Here we go. Is it alright. Oh yes. Shall we have a go on here. Oh get your feet in. There we go. There we go. Sit down. There we go. Oh. There ha is that nice? There. Oh I'll put I'll make your tea. Did everything go all right? There have been two of us on this morning. Oh. Have there not been too many people in then? There are going to be quite a few discharges but I mean it was you know They were pushing their luck as usual. Well there's only two on tomorrow morning and there are four wards and they've got five admissions this afternoon. I mean it's stupid Mm mm mm and haven't you been a good boy? And your teeth need cleaning look. Did you clean your teeth this morning? Well he had the tooth brush. Did you not put the tooth paste on it? No. Didn't you have your tooth paste on? No but he had his tooth brush. His tooth brush. Well what's happened to that other tooth. That's what I want to know. Look he's still got a dirty nose. And er Oh so I'll what would you like doing with that lamb I'll roast it shall I because I know what to do with roast dinner. Alright. Fine yeah. Unless you want anything special No darling. Nice little bit of apricot and walnut stuffing inside and er Have you done that? No. No. I don't think we've got apricots or walnuts have we? Yeah we've got marmalade. Marmalade? Yeah walnuts and I've eaten all that haven't I? Have you? I don't know do I. I like that. It's almonds anyway that was. One two three wee. Where's teddy? There you go. Mummy's going to have a cup of tea. A cup of tea for mummy. Did he have any er what time did he have dinner then? Ba ba boom boom. What time did you have dinner? Just gone twelve I think. I'll see if he'll have a sleep then shall I? Er oh yeah. And he had half of I gave him that banana desert. Oh did he? Yeah he ate some of that. I think he must have been full. Yeah probably. Yes Yeah tut tut tut it's all right. Just take your Oh chocky buttons. Oh you lucky boy. Look look look He had a sleep Oh there's a milk chocolate this morning I always do that. milk chocolate they're all milky you know. I must admit I thought they were and er What was I going to Oh hear I thought they were milky bars likely. Mm. Did you want one of these? Lovely! One of those? Oh dear ah oh. Shall I pop over and see Trevor then? Yes. We can all go can't we? Yeah I'll stay with Enid. Yeah fine. That's of course if she's there. Oh yes they're both supposed to be off If they can't turn up It's no good is it? You know I mean if he can't even remember What time yeah. Mind you I heard he could hear it in the background so he must have got a few kids Er. I mean what we can do is set the oven. It will come on and cook itself. Then it's ready for when we want it. That's good yeah great. Do you want a piece of cake? Mm Have you had anything to eat? No. No? Do you want a sandwich? Oh I had I had something this morning. That's not much is it? Do you want a sandwich? Yes? I'm not really hungry. I'll have a bit of cake this time. That'll keep you going. It's not all Shall we take a bit over for Edith? You can if you like darling. Unless you Well take take that little piece It's not worth it for that Mm Oh that would be alright if we go yeah we can all go over for a nice little run out Yeah won't it? I'll do the washing when I get back. You going to phone him? Mm. I'll make sure it's alright. Well it would do. Which book for his number? The white one the dairy one the diary one. What's it under?? Yeah Is theirs an O eight one then? Nine five O Nine five O is that it? five eight. Right we're in business What time do you want this cooked for? Er Do you want this stuffing with it so that it's all cooked together? Yes that's a good idea? Watch it! Er what time do we want it for? About six? Oh no we have to come back to feed Guy haven't we? So it means being back here for five do we I'm sure they'll do him a sandwich box. Oh I don't want to throw his routine too much. His sleep pattern going again. Jack was talking about it. Said Guy's been playing up a bit lately hasn't he? Was sad was he? Oh yeah he heard him he said it's alright I wake up with the birds myself anyway. Not much choice now. Yeah I know. He was alright this morning. Yeah he wasn't so bad but er What time do you want it ready Five Five are we going to be back by five? Oh no we're going to give Guy I'll put ours for six. If we come back we come back. Yes fine. Lovely. Lovely I'll make it six fifteen. Yes. Duration. How long will it take to cook the lamb? Let's just have a look. It's not there it's not er there. An hour Da ah. Dad How much? An Hour? Yeah slow give it an hour and a half in a slow oven. An hour and a half Da ah. Might as well We'll have vitamins Yeah okay. Right? And what number? Da ah. Five that'll be about right Five. Well it's set. Ah Forgot to shove it in. Ah Were you looking at yourself? Look at you. Were you looking at yourself? And did you eat all those? Well done. I can put some petrol in the Fiat bar over there can't I? She's getting low isn't she? Look I've got to do this darling. You're my tea. Oh. Sorry mummy! Do you want it? Here have mine because I've had plenty of tea. Naughty daddy Why you drinking mummy's tea? You go to daddy for a minute let me get this erm these spuds on. Come on sweetheart come on. Does he need his bum changing? Yes shall I go do that? Yes while I do this? Yes What have you done with the lamb? How many spuds shall I do? Well a few. We can always give one to Guy can't we? Yes we can have it mashed through. Da da That's it lovely a bit of oil. Mm Da E! Put another top on him will you for me please? Okey dokey. A clean top eh? Yeah put on that er you know the little jumper with buttons on not the yellow one but the blue one. With buttons down It's up there Yeah we'll have a go. You look good whatever won't you. Yeah. Yep Yep yep Oh who's a clever boy Ooh There we go lovely. Oh up we come Let's take this one off. Da Here we go. Sit up. Oh that one looks nice doesn't it? Yeah that looks nice and bright. Ah. Ah. Ooh. Ah ah ah ah Ah ah ah ah. No come on come along put this on. There's a good boy. Up up this arm in. Put this little arm in. No. Come along now. There we go. That's it. Now then That's it. What's all this noise about? Eh What's all this noise about? What's all the noise about? Ho put your shoe on. That's it. Push down. There's a good boy. There's my good boy. You're tired aren't you? You can have a nice little sleep in the car. Yes. Yes you can. Ya we'll see we'll take you to see Uncle Trevor and Aunty Edie. Yes There's a good boy. Deh Deh. That's birdies, yeah. Yeah Yeah Yeah Oh right there we are close the window. Yeah. Eh eh eh eh Daddy'll wash his hands. Just wait there. There's a good boy. Oh you're brushing your teeth there's a clever boy. There's my clever boy. Oh come on then Ah that's better. Dada Dada. Oh Dad Oh there we go that's better. Shall we put some other shoes on for driving? Yes. Oh you sit there and push it here. There we are What shoes shall we put on? Careful! Careful! There we are. Ma. That's better. Oh yes. Mm mm mm. You're not going to bed no you're not. Ah ah. Come on then come on then. There let's put your toothbrush back. Ah Oh ah there. La la La la la la. Oh yes we're ready. We're ready. We don't need a coat on in the car do we? I shouldn't think so. It might be quite warm and we're going to go to sleep in the car. I would think. Yes Yes. Yes we can. Oh yes we can. Oh. Up. dancing no dancing. Dancing. Come on then let's go. We're going we're going we're going. So. We're going. Shall we just top this up with something for a drink for him? Yeah. Well we can top it up there. Oh alright. Because we've got water . Come on then let's go. Is that back door locked? Let's go. Do you need anything from the house? No. You got the bottle? Yeah. There's the bottle. Why, watch with Guy. I mean it's a case of of what time we'd make the journey isn't it? It'll make a big difference. I don't know you have any thoughts on that? Well, we've got to do Mind you Br Brian's supposed to be coming back to me on er whether or not he he's gonna be around at all. Cos he's in Paris. But he he doesn't know what his schedule is yet. He doesn't know whether he you know is flying over or driving over or where he'll be when. So I don't know. Yeah. Didn't take you this morning. Take When I took Guy out. Well I couldn't get er couldn't get a paper or anything. So the meat and the spuds should be cooked. Lovely. Say well we don't want to do too much do we today. I think in next weekend possibly er if we drove down on the Sunday evening Yeah. Sort of Guy would sleep Yeah and it'd be the roads should be quieter. Shouldn't staying over for the bank holiday monday? Yeah. I don't know. I mean it's gonna be hell on the roads on bank holiday Monday isn't it? And the thing is if we get up Friday morning, it's gonna give us enough time, up there. We'll see. We'll have to go and see Russell and Leslie on this, this time though. I'll try and arrange it so Auntie Dorothy spends Sunday with us. I mean haven't even got the er on yet. Mm. on Tuesday to see what she was doing that's of course if she can get . If not, we're going to have to buy one. Right. Can't put you in a drawer can we? Just trying to think whether there might be somebody up there that I know that has one. We'll have to take a couple of gifts up for them . What, Russell and Leslie? Actually the baby might be here now. Give your mum a kiss. Yeah, it might be. I knew it wouldn't be here this week you know I mean if they've told her there's another three to four weeks it's unlikely that it was gonna be last weekend. Yeah. Still. Not to worry. No. Wonder what he'll be. Probably another girl. That's what I think. I'd lay odds on Russell wants a boy. What a son and heir? Yeah. Son and heir. Good job we had one. Well that's it. Isn't it funny? I stink of garlic again. Do you? Oh dear. I wonder how that happened. you know like Sorry. it's very embarrassing. Is it? Did somebody mention it? Yes. Breathing fumes over patients when they're not feeling well and nauseated and then they get this of garlic. It's very unfair on them, I was ever so annoyed with you this morning. Oh sorry. This poor patient was really ill and there I was breathing garlic over her. Ah. Did she mention it? She did. Did she really. She said what, what were you eating last night she said as she vomited. Don't, who's exaggerating. I'm not exaggerating. She was really ill this morning quite a nice Mm. It's quite a nice area here. I like this area I really do actually if I could afford to live here I would. But it's so expensive. I'll tell you something I don't want to go to school. No. I really don't. Well come on we know he won't. He won't. Well I've got to go and put his name down Yeah. Specially for a playgroup. Mind you the school for this catchment any better? I think so I mean, there good and bad wherever you go but I never What about Bushey? Bushey. Well I wouldn't send him to wouldn't be living there. It just depends on where we live I'm not gonna go to a place just because of a school No. I just know that Wood End Way is really crap. Mm. But might have changed headmasters have changed. Curriculum might . When I was there it was You agree don't you? Yes. Right. We're having a sleep. Never. really. Tell you, if we were in Yorkshire I'd send him to the, the, that er the convent school that I went to. As long as they're not cruel. Oh they weren't they were great you know. That school, that school made more of an impression than I mean it was, if anything they were too soft. I don't mind a bit of discipline but I don't like cruelty. I remember when I was at er tech I was reading and when I read I'm absorbed, you know what I mean Yeah. I don't hear anything. And I was reading, I wasn't even doing anything, I was just sitting reading and the teacher walked in and I didn't hear him. Didn't hear anything. The next thing I knew he was pulling me up by my hair. Shh yeah. Yet you would have thought that you know, it wasn't as if I were disrupting the class or anything. Yeah the very first school I went to was quite disciplined. I don't, it was very, it was very old fashioned really. There was a lot of bullying and what have you, you know. No I don't want him to go to a school where there's a lot of bullying. Admittedly Yeah. You see I'm worried, I was actually the young- the youngest in the school you know when I started. You're noisy this afternoon. What are you doing to that shoe lace? What are you doing to that shoe lace? So he's you've had a fun day haven't you Guy? da da Ah. da da. We've had Shoe, shoe, shoe. A shoe. Yes. Shoe. trying to get out . Now do you're shoes up properly. To be honest you'd be better off instead of aiming for Watford going straight across. Straight up here? No, no. Oh. Keep going until um. You know where as you normally turn left Yeah. Here going to Watford. Mind you you can always go up that way. Use the other road. If I can go up here and cut across a Yeah cut across that should be Yeah. you're going out of your way. yeah. take off then I've got your nose, I've got your nose! Where's Guy's mouth? That's it! Where's Guy's teeth? Guy's teeth. broke a few there as well haven't you? ga ga ga ga ga What's wrong? It's cos you Oi, oi, oi, oi what a noise. What a noise for one so young. Who's a silly billy? There's a silly billy. Is it you? Is it you? Is it you? Ga ga. Daddy. Gottle a gear gottle a gear gottle a gear. There now what are you gonna do? Ga ah!. Oi! Mind Wonder if it's this road surf- there's a feeling a bit of vibration on the steering then. It's nice up here isn't it? Yeah. Anything's better than Northolt. Well yeah.. They've got . Oi oi oi oi. What a noise. Well hopefully we'll be moved before er Christmas. I know. Just never seems to be, we never seem to have a lot of time . No, there's no point in moving unless it's I'm getting er a lot of money. No. Ideally I want a job where I get relocation. You'll just have to remind me. I haven't haven't come from it. I'm not used to coming from this direction so just remind me where the turning is. Oh alright then. Oh there's that new building on the corner isn't there? Yeah. Anita was saying yesterday about erm where they're living now. And er you know there's next one Next one. Right. There's a lot of old people there and er there's a quite a way to walk to the shops. Yeah she's not in a very good position No she was saying they have built some shops where they are. Thousand pounds a week or something rent. Yeah . I told you that there was going to be some available but It's it's well. They're dreaming. Well nobody's gonna take them. Ah. She can't afford to though can she? No, not now. That's fine. I mean you might expect to Oh yeah. They've done it nicely. asleep now . I mean, living up that end it's not so bad is it? Well yeah. Well no they're just No. Yet in comparison to what Whereabouts is this? Well, yes and, yes and no. I know. It's very er, very narrow road this isn't it? Can't get her in any tighter. Yes we can. Just pop round and er see that shop. Don't know that one goes through. He's got good access here anyway for Mm. I've got a feeling for the number of empty sites they must have hammered the rents or the rates or something. Mind you he's got it all worked out so right we know it's six, six pound per square foot is what we'll pay. What you've got to remember is that this is er this is southern England and not northern England. . Oh no you can get, you can get er six pounds per square foot is quite a bit. I mean you can get units sort of er I'd be in inner London for that price. It's just getting them with access that's the problem. Well that one looks a bit promising anyway. Mm. Down here? Mm. still sat there? still in Devon . Well it needed gutting and starting again. But it's just sat there. Doing nothing with it. Crazy. planning on pulling the whole thing down. Now then what do we want. Erm suppose I better check that round. This? This is the, just over there that's the A1 intersection. Don't know what these councils are playing at though. I mean they'll just they'll just have it sat there empty, it's been empty a year now. Perhaps they decided a bakery isn't the right sort of thing for it. Well no there were other people have applied. Yeah. They , just not let it. Shall shall we go back round there? You wanna go to Pullens don't you? I don't want to it's up to you to say! Well I don't know cos you know the way sort of. Oh well go up this way then. back of the estate some place. We are yeah. Hang on I'll have a look see where we are. Well this'll take us back . No lorries. No. This is where we've just been isn't it? Go to your right. Oh even a bus service. Yeah you've got comes up here. And the three o six. . There's quite a service buses plus they've got mini buses running around all over the shop as well so. Aha. See I mean look at that. All those tru trucks are just parked up. Even hire trucks there. Yeah. But I mean it's, it's money. You can't have, I mean you can't have all this stuff . Crazy. That's a fire station. It's all half the trip. Yeah it's offices, car parking. There's no er it's no good for lorries is it? Not for the sort, not for the sort of operation you're looking at no. Nice area. office blocks. It's a modern enough as it is. And they keep building them. No I think, they were making er lots of money out of offices but not any more. Well there's not that many bloody companies left to put, to go in them is there? No. Is it round here? Boreham Wood football club Straight over? Haven't been down here for a while. It's all new to me. . I've not been down here To set up that sort of operation twenty four hours trucks rolling in and out, you've got to be on an industrial estate Mm. There's no way you're gonna get round whatsoever. Right Ah I know where I am. Yes. We looked at a bakery down here. Mm. And it was just so antiquated. Big old stone ovens you know? Hole in the wall job. Oh yeah? Not really suitable. Well, it would have taken a lot of investment. And it was only it was a leasehold job. Property needed quite a bit of work doing on it. Just along here somewhere on the left. Yeah that's it. There? Just gone past it yeah. Right. That's the one is it? Well I didn't know there was anything up here I was just, I just come up here to That all looks occupied. see what's around. up there. Oh yeah, lease for sale. I know there was a few different up here. two thousand square feet That's what we want. Mm. Ah that's roll on roll off. Yeah. Mega. Mega mega. Yeah. Mega bucks as well. There we go. That looks empty. I don't see any er for sale signs up though. It would appear there's a few. Yeah. office in the front. again, easy access. Yeah. Just turn right up there and it takes you up to the bottom of the M10. Which gives you the M25 and the M1. Somebody must be letting the bloody things out . Well they're all blank. Well there's, there's some blank . There's two units left. So who would, who does them? I don't see any er notices in the windows like a telephone number . Unit one and four are still open. Oh this is where Mercury are. Aha. we use Mercury at work. Yeah it's a pity you didn't wanna go for something bigger innit, that would have been ideal wouldn't it? Roll on roll off . If we were supplying Marks and Spencer in this country it might be the answer but er This erm this used to be a distribution sort of Well it looks like it yeah. erm golden something or other. Diesel pumps and all sorts over there. mm. That's that one. Maybe you can get it at a knock down price. . They'd have to knock it down a hell of a bloody lot. That's not bad. Mm? Bilton that's a company innit, that's not an agent. Is it. Alright back it up a bit. . Well I suggest that Bilton is, is the people you're gonna enquire with these two, for these two . If you wanna take the numbers of that. Number thirteen doesn't look too healthy. Fourteen That's on the other side of the board. The sign. Yeah. Where are we ? Er Sorry you're in erm West Radlett isn't it. Right beside of Rank Xerox. Unit fourteen. Biltons Good god that's been there a long time. It's still o one. Yeah Is that gonna be an oh eight one of you think? That'll be an oh eight one. Erm no oh one's Inner London so it's gonna be o seven one innit. .Mhm so he's got a few possibilities. Yeah. Those two round there look quite er Tasty. Yeah. Right erm hang a left . I think those two round there might, like those other two on the other one. They're newer so that more easily adapt to what Yeah. Oh I think I might just put some petrol in over there. Look like they've got an offer on. Monday Wednesday or Friday . Bloody hell. Is Tesco's still open? Yeah. No idea. No they open on a Sunday Sorry? I know they open on a Sunday now. Doesn't matter I mean, it'll go for a long time you know. Just last another week yet. left up here. Here. . Now take the second turning on the left. . There is a second turning on the left don't worry. Used to be a bus route. This one? Yeah go left Left and a bit of a right I think I've got a feeling we came to look at something round here. Yeah we did. We did come and have a look at a shop down here. Like that one? It could be. There was one for sale down here. Supermarket, supermarket. That's empty. No for sale on the bugger. They've got a supermarket, if that's a hairdressers that hasn't made it, it's not a good sign. Newsagents hardware that's gone as well has it? I wonder if they're terminating the leases. Rebuilding. It's council isn't it? Yeah but, well that side of the road's probably still going. Probably gonna redevelop one side then redevelop the other. That'd be council wouldn't it? Ooh isn't that clever! Come on then darling. There's good boy. Alright alright alright it's alr , it's alright! Now calm down, keep calm. What's the matter? Daddy's made you look, look some dinner. Yeah splch sssplllcchh Coo coo Coo coo. Carrots seem to work slowly. not overdone. This finishes at six fifty. So you're gonna have to remember the oven goes out at six fifteen. And you might have to put it on manual. Okay? Yeah a buzzer goes off though doesn't it? No well I'm not sure. Oh. I'm not sure if the buzzer goes off, might do. Mm. Mm. Thank you. Are you going to er do you want a drink for him? Erm no I don't think so but he's had his tea . He'll have his milk soon. Okey dokey. We've got bath to-, does he? Yeah put him in a bath Ooh! There you are mummy. Thank you. How do you do and how do you do and how do you do again! Hello! Hello sweetheart. Ah. Hello daddy. Did you have a nice bath? Very quick it was but we did have a nice bath didn't Ah wash . Haven't got any mince sauce dear. I thought we had some. I can't find it. Oh dear. Come in or shut the door darling. Oh sorry. Shall I get some? Come in. Well it's up to you . Well, have I haven't got any money. bother, Where where can you get some at this later hour now? Seven eleven that's all. Oh is it worth it. Well not Alright we'll manage. I'm sure we had some I'm sure we had some. I know we did saw it in the fridge. Yeah. Oh. It's not in any of the cupboards? No I can't see it. I know we had some we didn't use it all I know we didn't. Peter, you're teaching a very interesting course to first year students called ‘Energy and Applied Physics’. Is this taken just by physics students, or other students in the university. It's taken essentially by all the engineering students in their first year, which are over a hundred students, and approximately fifteen physics students plus some overseas visiting American students. What's the idea behind the course? Is it just an introduction to university physics? It's an attempt to Do you want me to ask a different question? No, no. It's a first year course which is attempting to teach the necessary basic physics that engineers require. I mean it's really trying to make up for the differences in the coverage that students coming into the university have had. They've had different syllabuses at school and masters have in fact omitted large chunks of the syllabus to get better results in the parts that they concentrate on, so you cannot assume that everybody has adequate abilities. So we're trying to bring everyone up to a certain level in certain selected topics — aspects of mechanics, heat, wave motion. Now this can be rather boring, as for some students it will actually be going over material that they have met. Of course one is teaching new material as well, but it's the repetition of certain subjects which can be boring, so we're trying to combine this with material which sees it in application, and in fact for engineers their whole orientation is towards applying ideas and not just to learning how and why nature works — that's the question that science asks, but engineering aims to apply and harness natural phenomena. What are the sort of basic principles you teach on this course? Could you give me an example? Well, one talks about mechanics — Newton's Law, I mean is where it starts from, and the nature of work — forces moving, doing work, and the use of energy when forces operate. At the same time, one introduces the idea of thermal energy, heat, and in many situations the requirement is in fact is to start from energy in one form, such as heat from burning oil, to satisfy a requirement for energy in another form, in other words mechanical energy — the turning of a shaft — so somewhere there has to be a device which converts the heat energy into mechanical energy. That would usually be called an engine, and in a car the engine just burns petrol and produces the mechanical energy in the shaft which turns the wheels, so the course is learning about the nature of mechanical forces and energy, thermal forces and energy and of the conversion of one form of energy to another, and in the process you learn that there are fundamental scientific laws — in particular the second law of thermo-dynamics — which says that you can't necessarily go form energy in one form with a hundred percent efficiency to getting it out in another form, so this limitation on your ability to convert from one form into another without waste in fact comes into many, many processes and every day processes. So the students in fact do calculations concerned with real life situations, involving cars and engines and so on? That's right. I mean we look at the motor car and see that as a energy conversion system it's approximately eighteen percent efficient. Most of the energy is thrown out of the exhaust pipe and in heat loss from the radiator, and in a erm small losses in friction inside the engine and gearbox, but most of it is lost in this conversion from heat from burning petrol into the mechanical energy of the rotating energy. Is that a question of bad design? Could cars be designed to be much more efficient than the eighteen percent you quote? If you could burn the fuel at a higher temperature, then the second law of thermodynamics says that the conversion can be more efficient. That would mean perhaps engines might be designed of ceramic materials so you could, conceivably see engine development along new lines, and in fact there are some designs already which do incorporate ceramic materials which will withstand the higher temperatures. In ordinary cars the higher temperature is produced by having a higher compression ratio and one is used to having high performance cars which have a high compression ratio and need special grades of petrol to avoid knocking and pinking and other effects detrimental to the car, and of course that leads to the need for lead to be added to petrol to stop knocking. Yes, why aren't cars more efficient? Is it a question of economics, because if they were more efficient, that is if they used less fuel to get a given mileage, is it a question of the companies involved being unwilling to put the money into the development costs, or would cars that are more efficient cost a lot more money to buy? I think it's a complicated situation, and in fact this is one of the ideas of the course. It's to say that there maybe some rather simple scientific idea behind some idea, but in practice there are so many other constraints and limitations, but all these have to be taken into account. Now for a motor car I think you can say that the practical desirabilities of a car, and the acceleration and performance and looks are very important, one could also say that the fact that many people have their cars bought for me by the firm they work for means that they will therefore buy a larger car than they would if it was their own money that they were spending, so the market for cars is perhaps not one which is determined by energy efficiency or even optimum efficiency in terms of people's and prestige is coming into it as much as these other factors and it is determined by who pays the money. But we're trying to, in the course, give engineers and physicists the opportunity to see something right through from a fundamental simple scientific idea, the scientific concept, to its application and to the limitations which are imposed by the scientific theory and by practicalities and economics, and of limitations on existing techniques. There's a danger that in a science course one concentrates purely on how and why nature works, or in an engineering course one concerns yourself only with how to apply and harness phenomena, not to understand sufficiently the nature of the phenomena and what are the inherent limitations. This course is trying to put science and engineering together, and at the same time tackle a broad field of energy which spreads through industry into the home, into transport, and to see how everything goes together — science, engineering, economics, social and human questions — they all come in. You talked a bit about cars — how about trains? Are they equally inefficient? Yes, certainly, the original steam engine, as designed, the Richard Trevithick engine, was probably about one percent efficient. The modern steam locomotives, used until they were superseded by diesel, were perhaps ten percent efficient, and the reason that steam went out and diesel was introduced was because diesel engines are more nearly forty percent efficient. So the history of train transport has partly been a history of striving for greater efficiency and lower fuel costs — one percent at the very beginning to forty percent now with diesel. In fact electric trains are themselves very efficient, but they draw electricity from the National Grid which is produced perhaps at something like thirty percent efficiency on the power station distribution network. Is there any prospect of us having a workable electric car? We keep on reading about these, but they never quite seem to get onto the market. I think that's the same situation as with nuclear power, which has taken perhaps fifty years from its discovery to its application on a large scale. Electric cars have been with us as milk floats for many years. There they have been exploiting the advantages of low pollution, the ability to stop and restart every few hours — sorry, every few yards — and electric cars may be introduced as much for their ability to produce low pollution, low noise, and as petrol becomes more expensive and electric cars become more widespread and better engineered and more efficient and cheaper, and more socially acceptable, then I think we will see electric cars. You said that it takes a long time for development between the first idea being mooted and a workable application of the particular physical principle, and you cited, what, fifty years for the development of a nuclear power station — is there always that time lag in technology? There seems to be. I think it's quite well known. We have been seeing this from the development of the transistor to its becoming very widespread now, being replaced and developed in the form of integrated circuits so now we have the microprocessor chip. This represents a continuous stage of development, from the original discovery of the transistor. I think we will be able to say that in ten years time the microprocessor will really be with us. It will be part of everyday life and that revolution will have been completed, and I think that's maybe forty years, but it's along time from the original discovery of the transistor. There's a lot of effort being put into various forms of energy transfer and energy production these days. We are all frightened that fossil fuels are going to run out in the foreseeable future, and I wonder if i could ask you about one or two possibilities. One is nuclear power stations. I suppose in the nineteen fifties we all thought that was the answer to energy production, but there seem to have been a lot of problems over these since then. Are we going towards a greater nuclear power age or not? I would expect that we will use nuclear power, but you have to get it into perspective. At the moment, nuclear power contributes approximately three percent to our national consumption of fuels, a small figure and even if we multiplied it tenfold that would be thirty percent. That would, in fact, be a huge increase in the nuclear power programme. More, I believe, than would be acceptable to people, so that nuclear power in itself will never be the solution to our energy problems. It has inherent difficulties. At the moment nuclear power stations can't be turned up and down to meet fluctuations and demand, and the fluctuation from the morning and afternoon peak demand to the middle of the night trough in demand is at least a factor of two to one, but nuclear power stations cannot be turned up and down to match that. They supply a constant load, therefore, so the user, the electricity user, has to be persuaded to even out his use of electricity, so night storage heaters are sold to people, just to be switched on at night, in order to provide a smoothing of the demand load. And of course heating your house in the middle of the night is not what everybody wants, so there has to be an attractive price to persuade people to do that and to invest in the storage heaters, hence the half price electricity. I see. How about solar energy? Any prospect of that providing a significant amount of our energy needs? Well, yes, it can provide some need, but the simplest way in this country would be use it to provide domestic hot water. Now, because of the seasonal variation, it can provide a lot of your hot water in the summer, but not very much in the winter and over a year, with a rooftop solar panel installation, you could perhaps expect to heat half your hot water by solar energy. If you then assumed that half the houses in the nation were converted to solar water heating in this way, you found find that you save one and a half percent of the primary fuel. Solar water heating may contribute one and a half percent to our total fuel saving requirement, which is very small in itself. Any chance of some of the wave energy schemes being developed to useful proportions? We've read a bit about these recently. Wave energy is attractive because the energies involved in very small distances of coast line are huge, witness the destruction of the Devon village by waves, with big boulders being flung up and destroying houses. That shows how much energy is available, and it is very attractive to try and harness this, but since the turn of the century there have been over a hundred patented devices to extract energy from the waves, but we still don't have a single commercial one operating. However, there are a number of attractive and promising schemes under very active development at the moment, but the sea is such a hostile environment — it's corrosive, force is involved for anything sitting on the surface as they are exposed to the force of the waves which is colossal, and if they are on the sea bed then perhaps there are maintenance problems, and getting the electricity ashore has not yet been solved. So I think we can say that it will be many years before we have a workable wave energy extraction scheme. Not so many years ago the country was covered with windmills. These are all gone. Is it a possible solution to go back to good old wind power in our energy search, or is that not on these days? I think wind power is perhaps one of the alternative energy sources which is erm nearest to being able to be applied and utilised immediately. However, if you consider one large modern power station, that would require approximately one thousand windmills each the size of the largest electricity pylons we see these days, and since the best sites for wind energy are on hilltops, where the wind is strongest, or around the coast, where again it's strong, this would require placing large numbers of windmills on the best hilltop views or beautiful coasting situations, and I think that would be as unacceptable as would an explosion in nuclear power stations — sorry, I don't mean a — expansion in nuclear power stations. Of course, windmills could be placed offshore, then perhaps there might be something attractive to seeing these structures out at sea at some distance — they could even be beyond the horizon — but they thought that they are whirling round usefully providing our energy I think could make them acceptable, and there is no doubt that the worldwide research and success in windmill research at the moment would suggest that wind power is within sight, but the economic investment and the problems of siting certainly mean that it will be only introduced gradually. We should do that one again . Do you want to talk again about windmills? Maybe we should do if you want to ask the question again. Are you sort of winding them down? No, no. I think it was just that one. I just got a bit erm mixed up in it. Okay, well shall I do windmills again just as Yeah, unless you want to go to another one then just come back I'll come back, I'll come back to windmills. erm Incidentally, erm have you got enough on the course itself? I erm possibly, have you got a lot more to say about the course? There's one thing that I — whether you want to discuss the seminars, I mean this is something The teaching method? Yes, something to do with whether science is fact or not and the need for discussion. Okay, I'll slot that in and we'll do that. What I was going to do is to go on and talk about, bring out electricity again as something which crops up. I would say something along the lines of you've had several, talking about several ways of energy production, but once you start talking about energy transfer and storage one seems to get to electricity fairly quickly and do you want to say anything about that? erm yeah, we could do, we could do. Yes, I mean certainly storage, I mean is important. One can say things about that. We've talked about various types of energy production, various methods of producing energy, there then is the problem of energy transfer and energy storage, where we seem to be talking almost solely about electricity. Is that the only reasonable way of storing energy and transferring it around the country for example? Storage is quite fundamental. Transport, for instance, requires that every car or lorry can carry its fuel with it, and petrol is in fact probably the most ideal fuel from almost every aspect. In terms of the weight you have to carry around, it is a light fuel. In terms of the concentration of energy, it will occupy the smallest volume, and I don't think it's and accident that we use petrol. So transport requires stored energy. Electricity for transport requires batteries. Lead acid batteries are just at the moment very heavy compared with petrol, but there are many alternative types of battery being researched. Quite exotic in some cases, but I have not doubt that some of those will ultimately be used and be commercial, but energy storage comes in every aspect of use of energy. We have at home our coal store, or our central heating fuel tank. These are our personal energy stores. In the old days factories used to have huge coal heaps outside in their yards. As we've in fact transferred to oil, those coal heaps in many cases have actually been cleaned up and build on, so as oil runs out it perhaps will not be possible to reconvert back to coal use in some factories simply because the space for storage won't exist. In houses for heating it's conceivable that you could have a huge hot water store in the basement, or a store made up of round pebbles, heated by hot air, which you could then use by circulating cool air through them to produce hot air at other times. That, in some cases, that has been explored for the storage of heat in the summer which you would then use in the winter, but everywhere one comes back to storage nuclear power stations cannot be turned up and down quickly at the moment, so either with electricity you have to have a uniform demand for electricity, or you have to, say, burn gas to provide an alternative way of generating electricity which can be turned up and down at will. In fact, gas, of course, is such a valuable fuel — it can be piped to people, in other words it's easy to distribute — it can be stored, by compressing it in tanks — in fact the national storage of gas at the moment which helps you to meet fluctuations in demand is the thousands of miles distribution pipeline, some six feet in diameter at sixty atmospheres in pressure, full of gas, and the volume of gas stored there is quite adequate to meet the fluctuations in demand. I suppose a couple of centuries ago most of the commercial production of energy, if you could call it that two centuries ago, was via windmills and perhaps watermills, but why don't we go back to wind power? Surely we could get rid of some of our fuel problems by setting up some windmills? Yes, I think erm windmills are on the threshold of being reintroduced. Much worldwide research has been quite successful, so that amongst all the sources of alternative energy wind power is perhaps the nearest to being exploited commercially again. However, if you want to replace one large electricity power station, you would require approximately one thousand windmills, each the size of the largest electricity pylons at the moment, and the best situations for the location of these is where the wind is blowing strongest — that is on hill tops or around the coastline, and there would be obvious social objections to putting large pylons, or windmills, on all the best scenic locations in the country. They could, in fact, be located offshore in shallow water, and lying on the beach watching these large structures with their whirling blades in the murky or hazy distance might be quite satisfying thought that without doing anything they are just providing the nation's energy, or some of it. However, there will be a time lag. It's not they have not yet been developed to be wholly reliable, and there are problems to be solved to do with the fluctuation in the wind power, but I think perhaps some of those are exaggerated. It's very rare that there is no wind over the whole country, and to some extent when the wind drops so does the demand for fuel. I mean there is extra heating requirement in buildings which are cooled much faster when they are subject to high winds, but I think we can see these coming up in the next ten, fifteen years we will start to see these. The aspects of energy that we have been talking about this evening erm are part of your course, are they discussed in this form by the students taking your course? Well we do have erm some discussions seminars where between ten and fifteen students are able to discuss matters relating to the course. Some of these are scientific matters, and in fact their skills in the use of these scientific matters. Some of them can be issues relating to these energy matters that we have been discussing, and in fact one of the aims of introducing this form of discussion is that science is often seen as a very factual subject — that you just receive and learn the facts. If, in fact, you ask fifteen students for their version of the facts and their interpretation, on most occasions you'll get about fifteen different answers, so in terms of the learning process there is much need for discussion for and a better understanding. If you've ever tried to explain something to somebody, that's a very reliable way of revealing to yourself that you didn't understanding something that you thought you did understand. Trying an idea out on somebody is a very good way of exposing flaws in your argument, and in fact if we look at the present energy debate, so much of it is concerned with interpretation which one would have thought, taking a simple view of science, were just factual matters that we realize that this discussion of science is perhaps more difficult than people would imagine, so there is opportunity in the course to try and help students to become more fluent in scientific discussion, discussion of scientific ideas between themselves, and of their own ideas about science. And of course energy is a very fertile field. It's not yet at a very developed and sophisticated level for ideas like wind energy, solar energy. That's all in its infancy and therefore is very suited to discussion of what might be and what will determine what scientific matters will take place. I think that this course is a very attractive one. I also know it's quite a popular one, because as you know, Peter, I have taught some of the students involved in the course and I know that they enjoy debating these issues mhm very much indeed. Thank you for telling us about it. Thank you for asking me. Thank you. Ken Okay, it's all yours Mike. Ordinary cars seem to be rather inefficient, but what about the possibility of electrical cars? Well, we have seen electrical cars in the form of milk floats for many years, and of course they're particularly suited to intermittent use, stopping and starting every few yards. So, it's quite clear that the electric car is a technical technically feasible form of car, however if you ask why do you want an electric car there would could be different reasons. The milk float requires a vehicle suitable for intermittent use, so does the fork lift truck. It will perhaps be, in certain parts of the world, that the need to cut down pollution is the most important factor — witness Los Angeles, San Francisco — and there electric cars are non-polluting and therefore would be appropriate to use there. If it's simply a matter of producing a vehicle which uses less fuel, however, the electric car, surprisingly, does not really offer any advantages over petrol cars. Though an electric car itself may be an inefficient machine, with a battery, electric motor and transmission system, all of which are individually efficient, the car requires electricity from a plug in the garage to charge up its batteries and the Electricity Generating Board and Power Stations are themselves inherently inefficient and they perhaps introduce a fact of only thirty percent into the overall conversion of primary fuel, that is coal, oil, gas, or nuclear, into electricity. So the efficiency of electric cars is, in fact, comparable with petrol cars. With regard to nuclear electricity, however, if we have nuclear electricity, which can't be turned down conveniently, then electric cars mostly would be sitting in garages overnight recharging, and that is when the natural trough in consumption of electricity occurs and therefore the use of electric cars could help to smooth the demand for electricity. The present batteries, lead acid batteries, of course are very heavy and mean that before you start the electric car has a very heavy load to carry around. If you have very few batteries then its range is limited, if you have a lot of batteries then the weight of the load is too great, so much work and research is being devoted at the moment to the development of alternative batteries. Some are quite exotic, requiring to be operated continuously at high temperatures. However, there is no doubt that these will become commercial in due course so that we may see electric cars, especially for local running. Then for long distance use we may require garages where you can simply exchange a battery pack for a fully charged one which you slide into the car. That would require considerable reorganization of the garage and energy distribution network to provide a widespread network of battery exchange stations. So it remains to be seen whether we may have such a network, or perhaps even assuming that nearly all the cheap oil runs out, whether we might in fact manufacture petrol artificially from wood, coal, or gas, simply to provide the excellent fuel with its wonderful storage characteristics for long distance transport. We've talked We've talked about various erm We've talked about various methods of producing energy. One we haven't mentioned so far is hydro-electricity. Is that still a viable method of energy production? In this country it can never be a major contributor of energy. Worldwide, on the other hand, it is a major source, especially of electricity. However, we do have the Severn Estuary, which is one of the world's best sources for the harnessing of tidal energy. In that you allow the tide to come in and then effectively close her down, so storing the water at the high level of the tide and you let it out through turbine generators when the sea is low, and the water running out, therefore, generates electricity. You can elaborate the scheme so that the electricity can be produced when the water is both flowing in and flowing out, and you can have extra divisions to ensure that electricity can be produced at all hours of the day or night, regardless of the condition of the tide. However, if you ask how much energy would damming up the River Severn to make a tidal energy scheme how much energy how much energy would that contribute, then it would probably only contribute three gigawatts the equivalent. Yes, how big is a gigawatt? The equivalent of about three large electricity power stations. So our potential for hydro-electric and tidal power is, in fact, limited. It is, however, used at the moment in North Wales and being considered in Scotland near Loch Lomond, as a method of storing energy. One takes a high level reservoir and if there is more electricity available than the demand requires, then some of that can be used to pump water up into the high level down. Then at peak hours the water can be allowed to run out through hydro-electric turbines to contribute to meeting that peak demand. So much of the hydro-electricity around the world is, in fact, used as a storage of energy, and at present there is a scheme under discussion round Loch Lomond for building a high level dam and storage system with power station in a region of particularly scenic beauty, of great importance to the Scots. So one sees how the simplest idea of a very clean form of fuel can still have environmental disadvantages, and I think there will be a considerable debate as to whether that Loch Lomond hydro-electric scheme will be built or not. Is the energy demand in this country still increasing, or has it levelled out nowadays? The domestic energy demand has remained constant for very many years. The demand industrially of course, has to some extent followed the fortunes of the national economy. In electricity, the shortages of the sixties led to a considerable investment in new power stations, so that at the moment we in fact have far more electricity power stations than we need. Of course if there was a sudden upsurge in industrial activity and demand, that situation could be reversed, but international trends clearly don't suggest any dramatic increase in industrial production, so we have an excess of electricity demand at the moment. Transport, of course, is tending to increase all the time, but there could be, and almost certainly will be, a trend of smaller motor cars to make better use of fuel by having less consumption. I'm just thinking now. There's some very interesting figures you see about. In fact domestic demand is quite interesting. Though we feel ourselves to be much more comfortable now than we used to be, there has been very little increase in domestic fuel demand over fifty years or more. In the old days we used to have very inefficient coal fires, burning in open grates, which to produce a reasonable heat used a significant amount of fuel. We replaced them by closed stoves or by central heating boilers, which were so much more efficient that they essentially have used the same amount of fuel and we have simply become more comfortable in the process. We don't require much more energy for cooking than we ever have, because our demand for cooking is essentially determined by how much we can eat. On the other hand, as we have changed to electricity, because of the inefficiency of the electricity generating process this has reflected an increase in the primary fuel consumption by the nation for domestic purposes, and this is true of most western countries that the consumption in the home has not increased, but changing to electricity increasingly has led to burning more oil and coal nationally to produce this constant home demand. Peter, as you know, I've taught this course, tutored some of the students in it, and I find it myself a very challenging and interesting course if only because the students are always unearthing new facts and figures about energy which catch me by surprise. Quite apart from the fact that they find it very interesting, I think that people outside the university would be pleased to know that a course of such down to earth practical is taught in a place which they sometimes regard as being rather airy fairy. Thank you very much Peter. Thank you, Brian. Thank you. Stephen you're doing research at university into processes of comprehensive schooling. I wonder if you could tell me something about this. Well what this has involved me in has been a long study of a single school. I spent two and a half years working with a single comprehensive school, looking at the change in that school from a system of streamed teaching to a system of mixed ability teaching. Because of the way that the school changed over from having a system of streaming in its first three years to a system where mixed ability is introduced year by year from the first to third year, I was able to follow two groups of pupils through the school, one lot of pupils in their streamed classes and then another lot following them on in their mixed ability classes, and try and discover something about the differences in their experience of school in the two different modes , in the streamed and the mixed ability classes. What were your general conclusions? I think the general point would be really a favourable impression of mixed ability teaching. There's a lot of worry, I know, among parents and also advisers, local authority people, about mixed ability teaching, about its impact on standards. I think the one clear thing to come out from my study is that with very careful preparation and with adequate thought about teaching reference, that a school can successfully go over to mixed ability teaching without any necessary impact on the standards of performance of the pupils. And this has really been justified recently in the ‘O’ level results of pupils who have now been through the mixed ability system and finished their ‘O’levels in the school, and they performed well — in some areas better than the streamed pupils did previously. What about the brighter children? Don't they suffer? Well again this is certainly a worry that is often talked about in terms of mixed ability teaching. The school was aware of this and specifically created a post of responsibility for the brighter child and gave this to a senior member of the staff, and that member of the staff was responsible for looking at the effects of mixed ability teaching on specifically identified brighter pupils, and I don't think the school would say that they totally solved the problem of what to do with the brighter child, but I think it's a problem which exists even in streamed classes, because the sort of pupils we're talking about are pupils who are exceptions in their own right — we're not talking about whole groups of pupils who previously have been in top streams, we're talking about half a dozen/ten individuals in any one year group and they are equally as difficult to deal with in a streamed situation. In some ways mixed ability, with its orientation towards individual approaches to learning, provides the possibility of focusing more on those children than even was possible in the streamed situation. So I think the school is in a position of wanting to think more about the problems of the brighter child, but they were not unaware of it and were attempting to deal with it. Yes, your conclusion is based surely on rather a small sample — two classes from one school? That's right, although the examination results were taken for each cohort. I looked at one, well in fact two classes in each year group in detail because I really wanted to focus very closely on how the pupils experienced the school in the different modes of grouping. What has happened previously in a lot of educational research is that large samples have been taken. We know something numerically about different systems, but we know little about them experientially, we know little about what it feels like, what the impact is upon individuals in the two different systems, and I really wanted to swing to the other type of research and look in more detail at how different pupils would respond to the stream situation, not simply in terms of their performance measured in tests, but in terms of their attitudes to school, their attitudes to their life outside of school, their involvement in sub-cultural groups or in youth clubs, this kind of thing. So it really necessitated small samples of pupils who I got to know fairly well, rather than a large sample. Did the pupils know that they were being studied, did the teachers know that they were being studied and did the teachers know that they were taking part in an educational experiment? Yes, they knew my role in the school, both the teachers and pupils. I think obviously the younger pupils didn't grasp very clearly. I normally explain to them that I was writing a book about the school and they certainly understood that. The teachers were in on my research from the beginning. I originally gained the co-operated of the headmaster, who allowed me to come into the school, and then I found the teachers enormously co-operative in fact, far more co-operative than I really high a right to expect. They asked me into their classes to watch them teach, they gave me time for interviews, they allowed me into staff meetings and departmental meetings and I erm at various points in my research I attempted to feed back to them some of the material I was coming up with, and we would have meetings to discuss this. I would use those meetings then to refine my ideas. From the viewpoint of this being an objective experiment, I would be a little bit worried about everyone knowing the nature of the experiment you had in mind because, as you probably know, in industrial studies there's a well known effect, I think it's called the Hawthorne effect, which merely by studying a group of people you change their behaviour and their output simply because they know that you are taking an interest in them and they've got some idea of your expectations. Are you sure this didn't happen in your study? Well I was certainly aware of this. I think it is adequately dealt with as a problem because of the erm really the length and the depth of my involvement with the school. I was there, as I have said, for two and a half years, so it would have been difficult for the teachers to erm respond to my presence erm in an artificial way because I was there for such a long time. Really I think I am able to demonstrate in a written account of the research that I am presenting a very real account of their teaching and their problems, as well as their successes erm sometimes I was able to observe lessons that went wrong and were very erm difficult for the teachers, as well as the lessons that were successful, so I don't really think it the problems at the end. You are, then, in favour of mixed ability teaching in comprehensive schools? I would be, yes. I think the advantages outweigh the disadvantages. Perhaps the point I haven't brought out, which was another enormous effect from the mixed ability teaching, or the mixed ability grouping, was the improvement in the pupils' behaviour. One of the problems with the stream situation was that those pupils who found themselves in the bottom streams, who found that they were perhaps not regarded so highly or so positively by their teachers, tended to respond with misbehaviour in their classes, with occasionally vandalism around the school and generally a negative attitude towards the school and their teachers in general, and the immediate effect of the mixed ability grouping was to eradicate behavioural problems of that kind almost entirely. There were no longer groups of pupils in any one class who were against the school and were wanting to disrupt the teaching of their teachers and really problems were reduced to individuals in each class, one or two pupils, which didn't present the same massive problem to teachers as the bottom streamed groups have done previously. So this was a very positive outcome, which the teachers, not unexpectedly, were very pleased about — this improvement in the behaviour of pupils. Does it require a special sort of teacher, a special type of teacher, to do this satisfactorily. I think it makes a lot of demands on the teacher. It's not something that is done easily or lightly. Some of the newly qualified teachers, perhaps, found some difficulties initially in coping with the wide range of abilities their mixed ability classes presented them with, and in some ways the school was not well provided with in-service support for mixed ability teaching and had to do a lot of their own work in terms of the appropriate methods to choose, the appropriate resources, the appropriate materials to develop. So, not every teacher was one hundred per cent successful with mixed ability teaching, but I don't think one can ever expect that with a new method. I think that now that the system has been running for a number of years in the school that it's possible for each department to support new members of staff and introduce them to the appropriate methods and approaches to mixed ability classes. What proportions of comprehensive schools now have mixed ability teaching? Well it's a difficult question to answer in a way because the pattern on grouping differs enormously from school to school. There are still very few schools that have mixed ability groups in all of their first three years, but more and more schools are introducing some mixed ability groups in their first three years and about thirty per cent have mixed ability grouping in their first year now, something around fifteen per cent have mixed ability in the first three years. Beyond that there are very few. When the C S Es/O Levels arrive at the beginning of the fourth year, most schools decide to separate out their pupils into different groups, although in the school I was studying and in one or two other schools it's possible to parallel C S E examinations with the existing ‘O’ level examinations and therefore to continue to teach the pupils in mixed ability groups, and that happened in English in the school I was studying. In other schools it has happened in other subjects. Presumably the case for streaming gets stronger as you get higher up into a school? Certainly the constraints of examinations make it more and more difficult to cope with the range of abilities in a mixed ability class. I think this hits different subjects in different ways. It happens perhaps sooner in languages and in science than it does say in history or English or geography, and certainly language teachers find much more difficulty in teaching mixed ability classes and one tends to find that languages — French/German — are the first to abandon mixed ability, usually in the second year, sometimes the third year, of comprehensive school. Is it Government policy to move in the direction of mixed ability classes? I don't think one could say policy, no erm I think the move in this direction is a drift really. There's been no guidance from the government, but they certainly don't seem to be against mixed ability teaching. There has been a recent H M I report which has asked some questions about mixed ability teaching and expressed some worries about those teachers who perhaps don't have the adequate support and preparation for mixed ability teaching, but they are certainly not against it, or the H M I is certainly not against mixed ability teaching. What research in this area needs to be done now? Well I think really what one must look for now is more detailed research on what actually goes on in mixed ability classrooms. Really we still know very little about what teachers actually do in the classroom and it's all very well standing back in university and saying teachers should do this and should do that, but in order to be able to offer guidance I think we really need to do more research in mixed ability classrooms to discover how teachers at the moment are dealing with the situation and where we might offer them more support, and that's the direction I'd like to see research going; rather than more of the grandiose large-scale quantitative studies, which collect lots of figures and statistics, I'd like to see a lot more studies in actual classrooms looking at actual teachers teaching, looking at what they do and how we can improve that. Do you have plans yourself to engage in further research in this area? Well I hope to look more at mixed ability teaching. Really it's a problem of time and resources erm the difficulties are that one has to spend a lot of time sitting in the classroom working with the teacher, or observing the teacher and it's difficult to find that time when one is teaching at university. So often the push is in the opposite direction, to doing research which doesn't involve one in long-term contact with the schools and this, of course, is one of the reasons why this type of research isn't so often done, but I hope to do some more work in classrooms, yes. Well good luck in that programme of yours. Thank you very much, Stephen. Thank you. Did I ask you most of the questions I ought to have asked you? How does being in a mixed ability class affect the social development of children? Well that was one of the interesting things to come out of the study, something which was totally unexpected as far as I was concerned, and that was it seemed that the pupils in the mixed ability classes developed more slowly socially than the pupils in the streamed classes. This was manifested in a number of ways, particularly in that pupils still in their second year in the mixed ability classes would be talking about playing with their friends, and generally their attitudes towards the teenage culture of pop music and magazines and fashions and discotheques didn't seem to develop so quickly as it had in the streamed situation. I think really this comes from the problem of those pupils in the streamed situation, in the bottom streams in particular, who found that they wanted alternatives to school when they were in an inferior position in the school, they were devalued if you like by finding themselves in the bottom streams and so they tended to look for out of school things, alternatives to school, from which to gain their satisfaction and they would look to the pop media, to fashion, to football, to these kinds of things. And in the mixed ability situation this certainly did not happen in the same way, so the children in a sense remained children longer in the mixed ability situation, and again this was something that the teachers found very pleasing in that the pupils were remaining involved in the school much more and much longer in a mixed ability situation. Carol, you've been doing some research into women and education. I wonder if you could tell me a bit about this. Well, I'm basically interested in the way in which education, or formal schooling, has attempted to prepare girls for their lives in the future, whether it prepares them for a life of, say, motherhood and working in the family, or whether it's encouraging them to do work outside the home and try and achieve in the areas that men traditionally achieve. Do you think that women's education should be the same as men's education? erm in certain respects, yes. I suppose not entirely so. If anything I think women's education now has to compensate a little erm and provide for those areas in which women start in a way that could be considered a handicap to men. They start behind men in certain ways because of the sort of training they are getting in school, in the home I mean, and in so many respects I think schools have to try and compensate for that. Do you find that women's schools do a better job of educating women than mixed schools? Umm, again that's very controversial. There is quite a bit of research, I think, to show that women do better at maths and science in single sex girls schools. On the other hand, my own feeling would be very much that schools have to prepare children for taking their life in the community and the community is mixed sex, it's not single sex, so I have a slight aversion to single sex institutions. I was brought up in one myself, but it is true that girls on the whole do better in the subjects traditionally regarded as male subjects in single sex schools. I think this is because they don't practice being feminine with the boys around and so they get on with the work more. Why aren't there more women scientists and engineers? Well, because society hasn't regarded science and engineering and feminine occupations . Do you think it would be a good idea if there were more women that went in for these areas? Oh, certainly so, certainly so, yes, I think it's terribly important. Do you think that women can bring an element to these professions which is different from the element that men contribute? I don't like answering that question in the affirmative, because there's a too easy supposition that lots of people have that women have feminine qualities which are sort of softness and sensitivity to people and generosity, rather than slightly more achievement-oriented qualities, you know, aggressive qualities than men have. It's too easy, I think, to assume that women aren't aggressive and are sensitive and men are more aggressive and less sensitive because that's the way society has wanted them to be in the past and children have grown up and lived up to those stereotypes, so I don't think we can actually say yet that women can offer anything distinctive until we've given them the chance to be themselves really . I suppose the old fashioned male view of women in society is that they should actually be in the home — that's their place. What do you feel about that? Well, um, I feel very strongly about that . If women want to be in the home then certainly let them stay in the home. I mean I wouldn't ever think it a good idea to encourage women to leave the home if they thought that their job was in there looking after small children, but it's very obvious nowadays that a very large number of women don't want to in the home any more. I don't know what the recent statistics are, but something like almost half married women now do work outside the home anyway. You could argue that some of them work outside the home because they have to, for financial reasons, but I think it's indisputable that a ever-growing number want to work outside the home and I think it's very important that they should be allowed the scope to do so. erm there's no doubt that our society, whatever kind of sentimental things it says about the status of the housewife, gives the housewife extremely low status, and that power and status and respect in society are accorded to people who achieve things in the work world occupationally outside the home, and given that that is so I think women, to increase their self respect, have got to achieve things outside the home, yes. That doesn't mean to say they shouldn't achieve inside the home too, but it does mean that they should have the chance of doing both if they want it, and I think perhaps most do. There's a lot of emphasis these days about individuals growing as individuals, but are you really saying that because women are obviously individuals they ought to be given the opportunity of growing in a way that they could only do if they had jobs? Given the kind of society that we have at the moment, I think so, because in the home — I mean aside from being defined as a housewife — you're really defined only in relation to other people, so what you say about self definition, erm self fulfilment, is absolutely crucial. In the home you're a wife, a mother, a daughter, an aunt, a grandmother, a niece, but you're only defined in relationship to somebody else and your function is mainly one of servicing other people, of creating a context in which other people live. You know, you get the house straight and send the kids off to school. The house is all straight and you're tired and then the kids come home from school and upset the house again, so you remake it again for the next day. Housework and organizing a home and looking after small children is very much context creating all the time, and you're doing is in your capacity as a relation of, you know, certain males, other people of your family. erm if you're going to have a self at all in our society I think it has to be one that's defined in relation to the occupational world. It's very difficult to attempt self definition without relating to the occupational world, and you get into the sort of situation where women only have private selves, they don't have public selves at all, which certainly creates problems of self definition for them . Do you think there are any areas of employment which are not appropriate for women? I don't think I'd like to say that there were until they've had the chance to find out . I think no. Do you think it's harder to be a women than a man in today's world? Oh certainly, certainly, erm boys grow up on the whole fairly secure in the knowledge that they have both work cells, occupational cells and also that they'll be able to have families. Most women grow up absolutely torn and still somehow knowing that they have to make some kind of choice. I mean either they opt for a family, or they opt for a job. If they want to opt for both they're going to have a very,very hard time, that's indisputable. The creches aren't there. The day provision for children isn't there. Women still, on the whole, have to achieve more than men to get to the same level in certain ways, but I think basically it's this question of choice. To have both a family and interesting work means a terrible struggle, and yet I think that those are the things that make for human happiness. I mean they are certainly the two most important things in my life, and I would have thought in most people's — both work and good relationships with a family. To return to your educational interests, what sort of changes would you like to see in education to make it more applicable, perhaps, to twentieth century women? Well mainly that it shouldn't evade the issue. The things I find so tragic, and I was talking to some girls erm in a sixth form college recently, and the thing that I find saddest is that the schools evade the issue. Girls somehow grow up thinking that perhaps they can do both, but they think that can have, you know, five or ten years off work and then go back to it. It's not possible to do that any more. You only have to look at the unemployment amongst married women who would like to be teachers. Just because of the employment situation generally, it's increasingly difficult to get back into work after raising a family if you've had time off. I mean certainly you can't achieve as much as a man does, but also the jobs just aren't there any more, not so much, and the main change I'd like to see in education is that it would help girls cope with this dilemma. I mean at the moment it just evades it. I mean when I think of all the money that was poured into my education and nobody ever mentioned the kind of decisions one would have to make in the future and the problems you would have in trying to make use both of your education and have children and have the happy family life that our society encourages you to have and that we all perhaps want. erm schools just don't help girls to have both and so a lot of the talk about underachievement, and I don't like that word , amongst girls really ignores the fact that girls aren't underachieving when they don't go all out for occupational success, when they don't set their goals very high in schools, they are being very rational because if they do achieve they are going to be faced with immense problems. It's easier sometimes not to achieve and just to settle for family life than it is to achieve and to set your occupational sights quite high and then to have to face the terrible and fight of having both a job and children. So that's the major change I'd like. Have you done any particular studies in the educational context. Have you studied mainly in schools, or have your studied at colleges and universities as well? I go into schools quite a lot because I'm concerned with the training of graduates as teachers, and I'm very interested in what goes on in schools. Academically, my own research is historical research. I've been working mainly on girls' education really from about eighteen ninety to about nineteen thirty and that's what has mainly occupied me research wise. Education, particularly for women, in that period must have changed enormously? Oh yes, certainly, yes. Could you give me some idea of how it has changed? Well, it was very, very class based in the nineteenth century, the late nineteenth century. erm towards the end of the century it was just about possible for middle class girls, or a few middle class girls to get a reasonable academic education at one of the G P D S schools — we've got one in Hove, you know the girls' public day school trust foundations — but only very few went there and got what would be equivalent now to a kind of secondary education and a very, very, very, very tiny minority of those girls could go on to university if they faced an enormous amount of opposition when they got there and also to get there in the first place, but for most girls there was only a basic elementary education, which increasingly stressed the sort of domestic side of a girl's vocation. I mean, elementary education for girls the board schools was very much a case of training them to be good wives and mothers and so on. There wasn't any chance really, well there was nothing which we could call there was no encouragement for girls to achieve anything academically or really encouragement for them to do anything much with their lives after they left school, aside from in the home, except for perhaps being domestic servants, something like that, which is after all the category of employment which absorbed most women until quite late on. But there have been an enormous number of changes. I mean the very small number of girls that did get to university at the turn of the century had to endure the most extraordinary trials and hardships. I mean most of them had to go chaperoned to lectures and things. You're a married woman, and you have a child, how are you managing to cope in your own life with the dilemmas? The price of considerable exhaustion . I think life is easier for me than it would be for a lot of working women because of the university creche, which enables me to go to work and sort of see my daughter at lunch time , that sort of thing. It would be very difficult otherwise, I think. The creche is a great boon. It's well organised and nice and my daughter likes it. It's possible to cope. I think life would be easier if I could live with my husband who, because of his own professional commitments is in Cambridge every week. We see each other at weekends. Does your husband accept that perhaps he ought to be looking after the baby alternate weeks, or is that not a solution to the problem? Oh, indeed so, erm our domestic life is extraordinarily complicated but when, after my maternity leave expired and when I'd finished having time off and breast feeding the baby, he in fact looked after her for a term in Cambridge and I came back to Sussex and taught during the week and went back to my daughter and husband at weekends, and now he's actually taking leave in his turn, if you like, so that he can be the back-up here while I teach and do my work this year. What we do at the end of the year we haven't quite worked out, but we are very much committed to sharing child care and professional space if you like, but we are very privileged in that academic work allows one the flexibility to work in the hours that you find convenient and so on and allows you the flexibility to make this kind of family arrangement. But this certainly isn't true of most other jobs and professions. Oh, no, it certainly isn't true of most other jobs and professions . Yes. And maybe then you would like to see society move towards a situation in which the role of women was recognised in such a way that it was possible for them to leave their babies in creches, would you, or Certainly much more day care provision generally, yes. I mean really nice, well organised, well funded creches are marvellous places. They are very happy places and they make for a lot of happiness with parents too I think. Children get a lot out of them, much younger I think than most people assume, but I would also like to see changes in the organization of work for both men and women to make possible much more flexibility. I mean if women have been stunted by being kept in the home, you could argue that men have been stunted by being too much over-identified essentially with the work world. We all know what happens to men in our society when they retire. In many cases they get very depressed or they even die, because their image of themselves is very much bound up with work and . I mean what I would ideally like is the society in which women could be both private and public people, and men too, so men would identify more with relationships in their families and so on and slightly less with work, and women less with the family and more with work, and I think that would make for much greater flexibility all round and I think children would benefit too. I think, the more I've seen actually of my own small daughter, and I adore her, but I think a small child for sort of every hour of the day is really too much for most adults. I mean it's very nice to be with a child, a baby, for about three or four hours, but after that you are quite grateful for somebody else to come and play with it for a while, and talk to it for a while. But I think that if both fathers and mothers share in the upbringing of small babies they are better parents and the child definitely is happier. It gets more stimulus and is just altogether happier. And I suppose there's a sense in which the child gains because the parents are that much happier and fulfilled? Yes, the frustrated mother can't be generous and so forth with her child, and on the whole I think the emphasis that people used to put on mothers staying at home was very misguided, because a mother who's having to sacrifice all her outside interests for the sake of her child is just a frustrated mother, and it's not good for the also the problem is that you then have fairly energetic women devoting all they have to children, then they over-invest in the child's own achievements, so in fact you are putting a great psychological burden on the child because it has to grow up fulfilling expectations of an adult, which is not right for a child. I think you can be much more relaxed about the way your child's growing up if you're not over-investing yourself in the way it grows up, if you follow me. Yes. Just altogether less demanding on the child as well as on the mother . How do you feel about the Women's Liberation Movement? Well, when you sort of fire a very broad question at me like that I'm not quite sure what to say because there are lots of women's liberation movements; there are lots of women who are interested in feminism broadly defined. But the movement — I suppose on the whole I am sympathetic towards the movement, but we have different images of what that movement is. erm the sort of image in the media is often very misleading. I mean I think there are groups of women all over the country very interested in feminism and doing lots of good work and providing support for women who do want some sort of change, and so if that's what you mean by the women's liberation movement I think it's a very good thing. Are you encouraged by the direction the society is taking at the moment in relation to women and education? erm in some ways I am. I am depressed by the lack of provision for small children, because although we have things like the Equal Opportunities Commission and the S S R C funding, very generously research into what they call women's under-achievement, educationally and occupationally and so on, that doesn't seem to be the area in which things ought to be being done. It's quite clear why women don't achieve in the way define by the general public. They don't achieve because they have to choose, and the only way to get women achieving in a sort of relaxed way is not to force them with the choice between occupation success and families. If you force people to choose between a family and a job I suppose, you know, women lots of women choose the family erm the only way women will achieve more educationally is to be able to combine the two things and not always have to make these crippling decisions and choices between two things which most human beings want, so there is a lot of money being spent on research into sex inequality and so on, and that's encouraging, but I think it's being spent in slightly the wrong way and I think there's a tendency to evade the crucial issues which are, of course , rather deep social issues about the organization of the family and work and they take a lot of changing, so I am ambivalent about that one. Well, thank you very much, Carol. Ken, we're going to stop for a moment. We've talked a lot about women being educated, isn't is just as important to educate men about women? I think so. It's difficult to know in what way you would actually set about doing this. I think in a very general way that men perhaps should be encouraged to realize that women also want to speak up for themselves. They don't really like being told what they want by men. It's difficult, though, because if you talk to adolescent boys in schools they are violently opposed to women's liberation, or they hate the name women's liberation, because they are very defensive perhaps about their own masculinity at that age, and their own masculinity is defined very much in terms of being superior to girls and having mums who wait on them at home, so it's difficult to challenge that kind of supposition at that age. I think later on perhaps it's easier erm but basically I think boys need to be discouraged from assuming that they know what women's position is. I think — it really begins in the home this because it's — mothers can do quite a lot in not educating their own sons to think of them as servants. A lot of women do this. They are very tolerant about boys' mess in the home and untidiness generally, and in a sense they lay the foundations right from the very beginning of boys growing up to think of women as kind of household servants — this attitude, you know, boys will be boys and they make a mess and poor mum has to do all the washing. It's really quite misguided because it does encourage those assumptions that mothers are there to tidy up after sons and of course then sons when they grow up and get wives want to replace their mothers. So women themselves can do something about educating men in the home, starting with their sons. Fine. Okay, Ken? My pleasure. I'll introduce you to W P C Heather who's the local crime prevention officer. I won't introduce the rest but th th , they're all linked and I gather that er you're gonna be replacing Heather in her role in the near future. Yes sir. Thank you. And don't worry if you see a tape recorder going er, it's actually being recorded, but just forget that it's there. And we hope to be able to show you a video. We'll make that up as we go along. But with that, over to you Heather. Right. Okay. Thanks very much. Ted. Those of you who snore will get ! Okay? Right. Crime prevention covers a multitude of things er and we'll bring it back to what actually effects you. And I think that has to be in our homes. We all like to feel safe and secure in our homes, and, but do we actually think about security unless we become a victim How do we go about securing up our homes? Do we know the areas that we should be concentrating on? Most of you come from er around this area and I would, and I would probably refer to this erm, as our local area because that is . For Harlow and the subdivisional area that we actually concentrate on, that takes in forty, or at least, no it doesn't. Our crime rate erm, for burglaries is about thirty two percent and that's home. burglaries. Most people that are the victim of burglaries erm decide to do their security . But it's knowing the right things. You can see lots of different security products on the market and . It doesn't have to in actual fact. But you start, or we like to start at the front door of what we call . Now how many amongst you have just got that on your front door? A lock like that? Yeah? Nothing else? Just that? That's it. . Okay. This in actual fact is called an automatic free latch you all know it by Yale, Legg, whatever the company make is. It isn't actually a security lock. It never was designed to be one. It's an easy lock for you to come in and out of your houses with. This is only as good as the screws holding it in place in your front door. A simple credit card slipped down there is sufficient rebate between the door frame, and the actual lock itself can open one of these types of locks showing no signs of forced entry. You won't even know somebody's been into your houses. Most houses are fitted with these but it's up to you as individuals to actually look and see, er, if that's sufficient. If that is all you've got even with a double lock, locking action it is very easy to open up. What we'd like you to do and to consider, and I'll come on to replacement soon, is to consider supplementing it with one of these types of locks. Many different makes. Chubb is probably one of the most commonest. This is a mortice lock. A five lever mortice dead lock. This is a security lock. You would probably see them on front doors and perhaps some of you have already got them, where about a third of the way up is a little brass plate, and it's an integral lock that's fitted into the door. The reason that these are a security lock is there are security features built into it. The leverage on a lock depends on the, the type of combination. This one is a five lever, which is probably the most standard. It is a made to a British standard which you can tell when you buy anything like that by the kite mark on the side. This one has got five levers and the levers are these things here that you can see in the casing. They're set into a set combination. There are up to a thousand differs of keys bought with these types of locks. So every one in a thousand key, might actually fit this type of lock but it's highly unlikely. It's got a steel bolt with two steel rollers in there, so that if, even somebody tried to hacksaw their way through that it will just slide along as soon as. They're very, very to open. They won't, the burglar is more likely to seriously damage the frame than the actual lock. They cost about we reckon seventeen to twenty five pounds to buy and they have to be fitted to a door one and three quarter inches thick. If you're good at do-it-yourself, then fine, have a go, if you're not this particularly applies to the gents, swallow your pride and get somebody in to do it for you. Please do not do er what a young man did the other day went to his house, he was the victim of a burglary, he very proudly announced that he'd fitted one of these locks to his front door when we saw how he'd fitted it, he'd actually chiselled out the majority of the side of his door in and filled it up with Polyfilla! Erm, we did tell him that obviously he'd That might help Yes! He also fitted it at the top end of the door. Now, if you've got nowhere else, erm, at the bottom end of the door to fit it, that's fine, but as a matter of a preference, Crime Prevention like to see them fitted a third of the way up the door, that is where our thieves put the boot in, and thieves will work to pressure points, to leverage points they come equipped, or most of them don't come equipped, because obviously if they're walking along the street and a police officer sees them, you know, pull them over and start to talk to them, most of them will actually er use the tools from the back garden or or things they find lying around to help themselves in. Now that's all very well having one of those, if you've got a nice solid wood door to fit it to, but if you're looking at the new replacement P V C doors erm, afterwards you can't fit that type of lock because the actual structure of the door won't take it. So how do you secure up one of those doors? Any of you got that problem? Yes. Well well actual fact, unless it's done, the security's fitted at the time of manufacture you can actually serious damage the framing. And I wouldn't suggest you, you tamper with it, er, because if you do damage the framework of it you've got no redress from the company. Some aluminium doors will take extra security device. But that is where you need to get a a specialist locksmith in to actually assess the framing of the door. Cos on the new P V C doors, most of the security is down one side, you've got what I call multi-locking surface. Some of you, you might have seen them, where you've got a number of bolts that shoot into the top from the side of the frame and the whole thing operates at the turn of a key. It's very good if that, that's in place, but you have to also make sure that the, the screws on the hinge side are fitted correctly as well. Cos I had an occasion where I had a, a replacement door it was my own house and they ripped off half the screws. And if you think of a the main fabric of them, they're quite flimsy. And there have been occasions now where our local police, certainly, and that er frees areas and just knock the back of the . So, do choose very carefully if you're thinking of having replacement glazing and doors. Every house has weak areas you can probably identify them yourselves, and so can burglars. If I was gonna break into a into, you know, my house how would I do it? And there are obvious points to watch isn't there? The back and the sides for instance. Burglars like to work unseen and unheard. They like the coverage of foliage to, to work at night. As I say, they will use the things that are in your back garden. So security extends not only from, the home, but onto the garden shed as well. If you've got a flat roof for instance, if you've got sun loungers in the side, well you just stack those up to the level of, levels of your . And one of the most common entrances into houses is by a small fan light window. As soon as they can get their head and shoulders through, they're in!double glazing conservatories is one of the best deterrents. . Security is like a game of chess, and our thieves are sort of like one move ahead of us, or vice-versa as the case might be. The window locks, which there are many, many different types to choose from are now not the deterrent they were. And if you have, are sort of screwed on and they're put underneath erm, until you sort of,type locks cos anything else . But how do you be really , how do you not scare yourselves from going out?gonna return to your homes and that everything's going to be left as it was? It's a question of having to deal with the truth. Making it as difficult as possible for them to come in by setting up barriers doing things, perhaps a at night, putting like some timer switches in the rooms that you're likely to be sitting in. You'd be surprised the number of people that will leave, still, just the one singular light in the hallway. Nobody sits in their for eight hours of an evening! So put it i , put a light on in a room that you will actually be in. Adjust the curtains. You cannot odds against the free newspapers coming through your doors, they're a pain to all of us! But we as crime prevention officers regularly meet with erm the newspaper people to say can you make sure your staff push them through the letter boxes and they assure us that the er, the next thing on their list to prioritize but it doesn't happen. And you must have gone through in your own neighbourhood where you see papers sticking out of letter bo boxes, milk left on the front door step. They are the tell-tale signs that the someone is not in. An extension of that is good neighbourhood. Are any of you involved in Neighbourhood Watch? Mm. Yes Offer that to you, do you think they neighbourhood work, watch works? Er before, before they set it up really. Yes. You might get the o , the odd one or two that are always looking out their windows and lo , they would do that in any case. No I, I don't really se That's a good idea I don't necessarily think it does. I, inadvertently went out of the house to go to , shut the door and realized I'd left my cars in the house. The only window open was at the back , so I had to break into my own house through there, I managed it. And, full expecting at any time perhaps to hear the er siren, sort of police car, but there wasn't any. No. Erm alright perhaps somebody said, you know, what's going on there, I wouldn't be surprised Cos you were Yeah. But I I'm I was rather disappointed that nothing had happened. Unfortunately Neighbourhood Watch is only as good what people Yeah. doing about it. Erm, that is joint effort, not only with yourselves, but for the police as well. And when you've got a good Neighbourhood Watch this is so, and you'll find that they are very efficient. We've had some good successes with them. It's also, depending on how much information you get because it should be a two way er communication. Most Neighbourhood Watches should supply regular news letters and information via local beat officers. And if that doesn't happen in your watches then that's something that needs to be addressed. Er, on an average here we sent out a newsletter once every month and we have things called a crime line which is an answerphone service updated every week with all of our crimes on it. So people have rung in on this direct line to find out what's going on and things appertaining that could be useful to them. And we found that it's starting to erm pay dividends. But it took us a long time to actually get to that stage because er, the police are at fault, the police launch these schemes and they go away and say get on with it and off we go And no follow up. no follow up. And it's a fault that we recognized. So if I can just break it down. The best deterrent against house burglaries at the moment is an alarm system. But actually, even with an alarm system you must have gone through where you've heard alarms ringing all day and nobody's been . Er if it's at night time it annoys you, cos if all ring your neighbours they're not gonna be so friendly if your alarm's ringing forever and a day and you know, it's disturbing your sleep. It's important if you consider having an alarm you cultivate your neighbours. You don't have to tell them your business, but what you do have to say is, I've got an alarm system, an audible system, so bells only, if you hear it going off can you ring the home station? It might be a bit more than that and can actually scare off. If you don't tell anybody nobody's going to react to that until it starts to annoy them, because most people think that everybody else is going to do something about it. It's like the car alarm, isn't it? You hear them going off. The only time we really react to them is when, perhaps, it's on our car we don't them to disturb anybody and you're trying to fumble about with your keys and switch the thing off. If you've got an alarm which is faulty and repeatedly goes off then, nine times out of ten, you ought to switch the thing off in the first place. And I think there was a local radio article er a couple of days ago that said that car alarms do not work any more house alarms do providing you've got good neighbours to respond to it. The prices of alarms, as well, you'd be quite surprised they do not range from a thousand. It might cost you a thousand pounds if you live in a a huge detached house and in the back of building you've got lots of rooms. But the average of hou , price for a house alarm ranging from about two hundred and seventy five pounds. Now if you had to have all the locks changed in your house, that probably come out on an even . A true locksmith is quite expensive. But, the responsibility for your own house is down to you. It's something that not a lot of people take notice of, as I say, until they become a victim of it. Or it might be your neighbours have become victims of crime and you suddenly see it could happen to you. Yeah, sorry I was going to ah er do, do you find that er the criminals are not taking notice of alarms off now because they know that people will be House alarms or car alarms? Er, house alarms. A , the house alarms I mean a I think thought initially that maybe maybe alarms, okay you can come and go, but erm Yeah. Most thieves are not in that league. They would rather go and burgle a house that isn't alarmed, erm because they don't know what type of alarm you've got there. Mm. Yes they can erm, distinguish between what I call a do-it-yourself alarms and th the recognized companies. Yeah. But at the end of the day they aren't in that league cos most thieves are opportunists they seize a common opportunity that is presented to them by or it could be they've actually just watched her go out and more of a chance . But if they set it off without, without noticing that you've gone like . They are That's likely to be, they're not gonna go, they're gonna, say the people next door, they're not gonna take any notice of it. No. Most Not most of the time That's right. Most of the time actually, if they do set them off, they scarper. They don't want to be around. Erm they don't want to draw attention to themselves. There are many different ways that they operate. I mean, one of the commonest things we have in this area is with the bogus officials who pretend to be something they're not. And none of us like to thing we've been conned. It happens so easily. You know, the water board er er it's all the same ones that we hear on th on the television, and it still happens! They still get away with it. Now, the classic example is from water boards, they'll have two people and they'll say, can we test your water pressure please? One will stay with you all the time watching what he's doing and the other one goes upstairs , while he's left alone, and in that short space of time they can actually . And . They nab easily saleable items that they can push out through boot sales, that type of thing, where they can really make the money. So how can you, what can you do to protect your ? Any ideas? Well I I think one of the greatest deterrents that one can have is the copper on the beat. You never see Yes. one! No. I think we're talking about We never see our own homes. Well But we It is a deterrent really. Well I know but I'm talking about, with break ins, I mean, people are a a I think are getting on with it and there's no deterrent for the A lone beat officer, as you call it, I think it has erm a cosmetic effect to be honest with you. Oh I think it does! Erm people tend to relate back er and think that in theory it's a nice welfare thing, and it's nice for the community, and they do sterling work, don't get me wrong, because I think they are a vital part of a community but, how much of a deterrent they are er, we are, we are unable to measure. And i it's not where, you've got the case where beat officers before erm, used to be able to clip erm people round the ear and things like that, they're not allowed to do that now, those days have long gone. But I, I think And erm there's a psychological as aspect in some so much that if they think that a policeman is gonna walk round the corner er, they're not so keen on doing it. Yeah. Well But I mean, we we've got a situation where we are, I mean, our estate's quiet, very quiet and and, you know, you get the impression that, you know, they can do it without fear or favour, you know,th they know that no one 's going to disturb them it's very quiet there Mm. and we we've always thought that, you know, to have a beat officer that was going around that could perhaps turn up at any time, would at least be some deterrent in so much that Yeah. the people think that they can do it undisturbed. Okay. They do, and that's what they, I mean, but they could also wait until he went round that corner and then go and burgle a house. Right. That's the other thing, they'd quite often would work to what we call But I mean,su surely that that's better than none at all? It is. Unfortunately, and it, perhaps it's the wrong choice of words, but beat officers are in actual fact, a luxury at the moment because if you call the police Yeah. you want a police to come as soon as possible, and you want to, to deal with it because it's a priority to you. Now police forces have to grade their to to things, we get the immediate response, the nine nine nine calls, and then so on. Where beat officers come into play is where you've got the non-urgent, what we call, the traffic, the non-urgent jobs, erm, where people can afford, maybe a couple of hours, it might be that they have to wait until the beat officer gets on duty could be a day or so's time and they they do do an awful lot of work, and it's an ongoing thing. Erm if you just liken it, I mean I was a beat officer here for eight years and the sorts of things that you'd come on duty erm to see, are you may, you might get the nutty woman, who who er, you reoccur and you have to go and see her and you ge , erm, but all the shift members can then pass that to the beat officer. It might be the domestic disputes. I, I take what yo you say because I I'm in favour of beat officers, but Yeah. most people want a quick response, so they would want then, the police officers in the cars that can get there within half an hour, at the latest to deal with their parti , particular problem. And as I say, it's it's not measurable to find out how much of a deterrent they are. I mean, they don't just sort of walk there, they have school visits and things like that to do, as well. So they are in touch with their community and they do for the most part, know what's going on, on their beat. But I mean, we have got nine beat officers for the whole of the Harlow Town area and just th , this area this is the start of what we call our beat eight this is the boundary along Southern Way, and that goes down as far are familiar with the area of Staple Tye most of you? It's quite a distance. All this side of the road is one officer's area that they have to cover on foot. See we we have an awful lot of problems, I mean, not only the question of breaking into one's home things like, car parking or things of a very high accident risk whereas, if we had a beat officer, at least we could set up some sort of local liaison, in so much that we could tell him about our sort of problems, and perhaps between us, resolve them. But we haven't yet But have you found out , have you got a beat officer? No. I've never seen one. But have you found out whether you've actually got one? They reckon there's supposed to be one allocated, but no one 's ever seen him. Why don't you ask to speak to him? We'll have to. Mm. We'll have to. See, it also takes members of the public to phone in. Yeah. People are quite often scared and think they don't want to bother the police we are human beings, we only bite on Thursdays, we're regularly fed and watered erm but, at the end of the day we But, there i there is a general consensus of opinion that if a, a policeman a happens to venture onto our estate, the instant reaction is, quick! Get a camera! Yeah. I mean I'd be a very rich woman And it's a general , it's a general consensus That's right. of opinion It is. unfortunately, nearly everybody says exactly the same. And we all believe each and every one of us, that if there was a, a much er, stronger police presence,i if I mean, a bobby Yeah. it would help a great deal. At least it would give us some sort of contact. We have got a ludicrous situation in our estate because it is very quiet. Whereabouts do you live? Up at Shenfield Right. Where, unfortunately, ladies er, won't go out of a night time because they're frightened whereas, we're looking for a little bit of a reassurance. Someone we can speak to, you know. True, I take your point, I mean I, perhaps I could dig a little bit deeper and find out what the Dickens is going on, you know! But we never ever se , we never ever see a policeman. But that also is the case, I mean er er, a lot of time th the actual design of our houses doesn't lend itself for us to actually look even if you're you're permanently looking out the window. I mean I can , have to say It's true. Our our our living quarters are on the back At the back. Yeah. That's right, so you wouldn't see anyone. Our bedroom's are on the front. You know. So Neighbourhood Watch really goes out the picture. The only thing that we do, and we've always done it without Neighbourhood Watch, we always make a point of telling one another when we're gonna be away for any period of time. That's just an extension from that, although it is basically neighbourhood watch Oh yes! Same sort of thing really. isn't it? Same sort o , but it is difficult when you're allied to a neighbourhood watch, when the living quarters are on the rear of the the accommodation. That's right. And it, it is, and We can't see what's going on there. because be being separate from all of you, and to make sure that your you know, because your problems are gonna be your neighbours problems. Yeah. Let's face it, we're quite selfish in the fact that we want to ensure that the area that we live in is safe for us and not too concerned that three or four estates down the road unless it starts to affect us . We don't want the problems on our own doorstep cos when the chips are down, we like to go home, and we like to feel safe and if somebody's entered your premises as an intruder then all of a sudden your security been taken away. It takes an awful long time for you to regain that and to feel safe in your own homes. Mm. So, if you do nothing else today, I'd like you to go home and assess the risk areas on your own individual houses. And have you actually ? If you haven't, then, you ought to phone your local beat officer and get him to come along and give you a survey I , I, I have phoned the police on numerous occasions and I must say, there isn't a great deal of response. Will, oh, it's all the response I get, we're far too busy we haven't got the manpower you know, er Well eventually they will have. a and this, this happens, you know. And that's the time to tackle it. I mean, I could come up I've even, I've even with the same excuse as that. I even sat on the local erm committee wi with the police authority, you know, and er we've got all sorts of promises but nothing that has ever materialized. When we query it, lack of manpower, lack of resources, lack of money. Well, we've got more police officers now than we've ever had before, we're not gonna get any more because, I mean, Essex Police Force, is quite a a rich one but I think, sort of, on recruitment, they've alre , probably due to get about fifty extra officers but that's . Which doesn't sound a lot from, er such a rural county, erm, but I mean, you know, obviously erm that is quite a lot, in terms because you are the people that are having to pay for it. Yeah. Do you think perhaps the problem is that, through no fault of their own, they spend far too much time in the police station doing other work perhaps, than going out on the beat? They're trying to cut that down, I mean, we have now, what is called, station officer's assistants and most police forces have them where they're civilian employees who do certain jobs to relieve the P C so that he can go back out onto the streets. Yeah. Compiling reports and goodness knows what else! Unfortunately , every thing you do in police force has got to be Gotta have reported. Yeah. And, that, it hasn't changed, in a very long while. Well I mean I'm er that wasn't meant as a criticism No. that was meant as, as a bit sympathy if you like, you know th But erm yeah sort of, the things that they have to do apart from fighting crime! Yes, but then Then I mean, you know there are things that we need to address in-house, to make sure that we give you er, an efficient service. And, like you say, if you're not Yeah. getting the response, if you're getting that type of excuse that comes out, then that's when you need to go back to them and say, well hang on, this is not good enough! I want a response! Alright, I'm prepared to wait depending you won't wait on a, a nine nine nine call, if it is Mm. an urgent call because that's got to take priority erm, but for other responses, then follow it up, don't just Yeah. accept it. Well I, I, as I say, I did follow it up and in fact, I even went to a committee where I sat and spoke to the er the police face to face and they made all sorts of promises but nothing materialized. Oh well, you'll have to stake it out again. Now I did bring a film along for you see and I'm hoping that it's going to work. But it just highlights some of the points erm it is humorous, so I hope that you enjoy it. And, it just shows you how easy it is to leave signs for the thief to tell him that we're out. This is where the technical bit always goes wrong even when Now is that done, that's tuned it right? Yeah. Try channel three. Going to switch it off . It's normally eight. . . That's right. I don't think we should put them through. Course it's a , talking, the only thing I can say, what you're saying about your erm problem in your area that, do you know if there's any crime actually committed on your estate? Is there a lot of crime Oh no! No! We don't get a lot No. really. I think we've, being a target, we've lived in which is since nineteen seventy three, I think we've had about three break ins. So no It's quite small really. which, which goes to show that maybe the officer, er saying maybe, I'm only throwing suggestions over there, cos I don't know Shenfield Yeah. that well, maybe the officer, the local beat officer has got a problem estate that he has to pinpoint and has to be there, or an area where the crime is being committed to try and deal with He's probably up in our estate! that, or, prevent that, whereas he knows that little estate round the corner, I know they look after themselves. Well why, why leave it totally ? Well, I'm probably You know! that's only a suggestion. The only trouble is I'm only saying that but yes, I I I take your point, er, as I say, I'm currently er a neighbourhood beat officer, I'm gonna become the crime prevention officer very shortly but I can go on estates like and they say, I haven't seen you for ages! I said but there's been nothing around here Quite honestly I monitor it Mm. by looking what the crime ra , who's But I I'd around I'd love someone like you to come around so I can come up to you and say this close is, er hello Geoff! You know Well yeah I If you've got a problem we we're . I'm very human , I do , and that's how I And some old dear old lady fell out, off the edge of the kerb That's right! because someone's parking right up the pavement. Over a cu , over a cup of tea, I could get a lot of information from you by saying But there is, there is, there is what's happening and various things. but there is literally no one that we can talk to like that. Yeah. I mean, if we've got problems with, with with house protection, you know. Yeah. But there's no one we can talk to, you know. Yeah. Cos you must have a local of crime prevention officer. There must be one somewhere. Well we have got one but I don't believe I've ever seen him. All you can say is could I make could I make an appointment to see you? And he says leave that to the local station, and say, can you leave a message with him to phone me back please. It doesn't, it doesn't happen. I don't ever, you see I'm I'm erm It doesn't happen like that ! I've I've I've phoned on numerous occasions. I er, I'll give you a classic example, I erm and my wife was with me Aha. for many years and I wheeled her around in a, in a Yeah. chair for that five years and, there were constantly people parking on the pavements, which necessitate you That's right, yeah. once or twice she were nearly no ,ne or the pair of us nearly got knocked down! Anyway, I phoned up the station and I said, you know, I've never seen anybody on the station, is there anybody could come and have a look at this because I'm sure we're gonna have a fatality before long, because, in my case it's my wife, it could be children who are playing there! Oh sure! And they said, well I'm sorry you know, er take the numbers of the cars, they want me to go round and take the numbers of the cars, phone them back and we will see if we've got someone that we can send down there! Well that's not the sort of liaison Well, yeah. that I want! Yeah. That's very poor management I would say, I'd be asking that bloke spoke to? Yeah. But this actually happened! Yeah, I dare say it did. Ah hee. Well yes. That's, that's how well he's talking to I don't think it doesn't look like we've managed to sort to that out so I'll move on. The other way, I mean, we can could actually try and help is to postcode your property I don't know if any of you have done that? But by simple erm, use of an ultra violet pen, using your postcode, followed by the door number or an abbreviation of the house name er,i that makes it identifiable. The postcode is broken down into, obviously figures and numbers, C M's, denotes sort of the Chelmsford area, or for whatever it might be in yo in your area, then you'll come down to either twenty, eighteen, whatever that is. It actually comes down to then, a more local area could be eighteen to twenty into Harlow, and then as you break down into the other figures, that then comes into a road and a postcode will actually go down to about fifteen houses in total, by putting your door number at the end of it, it makes it identifiable to your premises. That is the recognized form of marking for property nationally. All police forces will be able to check erm, if they, sort of find your video in the boot of somebody's car, they'll be able to check if it's marked. All you do, is you mark it on an item if you're gonna do the television do not do the screens, because every time you turn on up will come your postcode. Nor, do the back, because that can be removed you put it on a surface, the side or underneath that cannot be removed, and on a surfaces that's not regularly dusted and polished because eventually it will wear off. The other thing you cannot mark is compact discs Yeah. because they scan on ultra violet light and as one our P C's found out to his cost, he ruined a hundred and fifty pounds worth of compact disc cos he got rather carried away with and of course, it can't be cleaned off! We know that one as well. Okay? So don't mark compact discs. But it is an easy way of making your property identifiable. And as you're doing that make an inventory of sort of, items that have got serial numbers erm, so that if you do lose anything you've got a quick reference there for your insurance company. Most insurance companies now will specify, if you've had a burglary, the types of locks and they are now getting quite hot on it and they want good basic security of homes. So you've gotta go away, think like burglars, and think how easy is it, would it be for me to break into my own home? And if it takes you a matter of seconds, you really need to address your security. Well the er, the about that, when you said mark pieces of property Yeah. ya,, it, it's probably gonna be stolen anyway! The thief doesn't know whether it's been marked, cos usually they take in practise, what could the police be able to do? Well what we do is, if we if we know you've been burgled Aha. we then we, we regularly scout sort of all of the market stalls, the boot Oh. sales and we go over things. If we find property that we're, we're not happy with then all we've got to do is get it under ultra violet because all police forces do that and up will come the post code. Now most people can struggle to know their postcode, but you know might know yours. Mhm. I know your , but er, they ought to and therefore, you know, that is how we trace it. Th the one mark that we can trace. Some property you're not gonna get back. You see, on programmes like Crime Watch U K, where erm they've got these Aladdin's caves on all these stolen items that can never be returned to their owners, it's very, very difficult to sort of mark silverware and things like that without devaluing it? Ultra violet is one of the easiest ways. If it's jewellery it's harder, it will show up, erm if you're marking things like engagements rings, then the best thing to do is actually take photographs of them with a ruler or some sort of erm comparison of the size of the item cos if you do like a a ring on a photograph it's gonna, it's gonna come out like a , so if you got a ruler to say, you know, it's only sort of one and a half inches in width or whatever, then we can actually get a clear picture of, of that. But with that, I have to stress, do not snap away merrily at all your valuables and then take your film into Boots or Supersnaps or whatever with all your details on it, because you don't know who works there and who's going to pick up that and . And just,. You'll either have to use a polaroid instamatic camera and, or, go to a re a reputable photographer and make sure you get the negatives back. The sort of larger items the police have property marking kits that they're quite willing to lend out to people, or alternatively, you can hire them out on your library card, and you can dye stamp those or engrave them. And if you're going to do thin metal objects or a sort of aluminium frame, do not use the dye stamps on those. And all that is is a hammer and stamp and er and they have a habit of buckling because we regularly, erm postcode cycles erm, with the introduction of the mountain bike we found that on the weaker frames we were buckling them. And a mountain bike is quite expensive to replace! Erm, because they range from sort of anywhere from two hundred and fifty pounds erm, in excess of a thousand, so we now, as a matter of course, always engrave them. But it's exactly the same you just use the postcode. Do you, do you think the N P stickers that go on the doors or windows is a deterrent to burglars? N P, do you think it deters them? At one time it did displace crime. I still think that neighbourhood watches does what we're doing is we're pushing it out to Hertfordshire and the Metropolitan area and they're trying to push it elsewhere, and then, you know, we're just Yeah. pushing it away. But it won't deter the real erm Thief. professional thief. But those are few and far between. Most of them are opportunists, most of them come from the local area they'll know the housing estates and whatever happens . They've already chosen their set routes. They're familiar with the ground. And there are many contributing factors as to why er somebody turns to a life of crime, er, which is another argument, which I'm not gonna get involved with. Mm. Erm but, we are getting more and more opportunists lately. You know only as I say, it's made easy for them. It's like, sort of thefts of motor vehicles, we can reduce the theft of the actual vehicle, because there are security devices now to do that, to make it harder and you cannot odds somebody coming along the street, throwing a brick through a window and grabbing your cassette out. It takes a matter of seconds, and by the time the police have actually received the call, they're on route, they've gone. Most people are also scared to get involved now, because of the reprisals if they've actually reported some, to er, to a crime and you can a , understand that. I can understand that they don't want to get, to to go through the rigmarole of court. But the o , other thing is, you know, do you let these people get away with it? It's a matter for you as individuals isn't it if you witness something? But we haven't got a crystal ball, we don't know what's going on, unless you tell us cos we are relying on members of the public telling us things, saying that they've witnessed things what you saw. And that's a very difficult thing again, because most people's idea of description is different. We have a di , a different picture, and we make up erm pictures like you see o on these crime programmes, the videofits of suspects, you've all seen them where th , you know got the lines between the nose and, and the mouth they are made up of the information that we've gained from witnesses. As I say, but if there's I mean, how tall do you think I am sir? I dunno, about five foot seven, eight? Five foot eight? Well that's very flattering. Five foot five? Five foot five? Yeah. Five foot three to five foot four, five four. Right. Some of you might have taken into consideration the heel on my shoe. I'm actually five foot four I can't see that. so you're all wrong! I said five foot four! Erm It's only a foot! Yeah, it's only a foot. That's right. That foot ! And in , when we look for distinguishing marks on people Yeah. hair colour changes, size change, and you know, we'll say well what did the person look like? Well he had brown hair! Well there's many different shades of brown, you know. What was he wearing? Jeans. You know! What was he wearing on his feet? Trainers. White. Can you imagine, we have to try and make out a picture of that! Yeah. Oh could you? Mm. But, surely, coming back to the a highly say I didn't do it. I knew a chap on the police force and pretty irritant and pure walking around the like each day, trying to see if there's any . Well they can Yeah. but individuals have a responsibility for crime as well, because the ownership of, of crime problems is not just the police, it's down to the community in which that the people live. And this is probably the hardest Well surely we're trying to do this in the way of neighbourhood watch That's one of the ways, certainly. Couldn't you have a yo yo say And with with you want more more they want it both sides of the coin don't they? you see the officer walking, walking around in pairs continually, not and if you're gonna be paid extra for it, do it that way. If the police can't do it then somebody else has got to! I must be Right! said! To try somebody of a trainer er . Yes it's still I tell you yo That's right. I don't want my house broken into in the first place. I don't wanna be told that somebody and some remote things, like which was mine, and somebody would say, well he saw it and he saw the policeman ah they would come, they've never catch them! No. But this is, well this is You know, I don't blame you for that. This is the starting point isn't it? Rather than at all, where would you be I don't know. then? I don't know this afte , well it's it's a pretence to the You have a responsibl , bility Mm. of your own premises don't you? And how to secure those up. Yeah. Because at the end of the day you don't want somebody coming into your home. No I don't. No! Well tha that's really a fro market isn't it, once everybody That's it. takes reasonable precautions And that's all I'm asking you to do. to the best of their ability , but I mean, I take our friend's point of view, if they're marked, I mean, what's the chances of someone breaking into a home, what's the chance of er, them ever being er captured? Quite a lot in actual fact! I I would, I would have thought that there's Yeah. there's many more get away with it than there is actually captured ones. There are. But sooner or later they, they're going to start making mistakes bad mistakes, and that's when they, they come on Come a croppers. line to to be caught. Yeah. And then, we then we have to trace. I mean, police stations regularly become full of stolen items and we've got nowhere to put it, and we have to have these displays erm, where we try and and trace the owners, it's a, a very difficult job, it's a very time consuming job Yes. by marking your property at least it gives us a starting point especially if it's personal to you. I mean I, what you're saying's quite valid I mean,i if you've got a situation where you have been successful and you've got an accumulation of stuff that's been recovered from robberies, at least it gives you some method of returning it to it's previous That's right. owners. But we're relying on you to put it on there. But, it's it's not really a deterrent, that's the point we're making isn't it? It's it's one way because they don't want Yeah. identifiable property Mm. because it makes it harder for them to sell. Oh it does . Mm. Who's gonna sleep at night . They won't, but we will. Just, we just put our sign across it Yeah. that's the beauty of that. You can visible marker your goods, but that's even less attractive, but would you want an engraved mark across one of your prize possessions? Well actually, I think they're more suitable like that as though the insurance companies certainly don't ! They will Rather than, it's it's the sentimental value a lot of things, a lot of things . You normally client cooperation . I like that ! , you might the money back. That's handy, but Is it okay? Shall I ask? Quite a lot of people don't want them back Yeah. they've done well out the insurance ! They, they'd rather have the money, yeah! told though that the film is going to to actually work now so Don't be silly! They'll take it now, you know what I mean? Yes ! Can you hear that? Right. Okay. Something else I'd just like to, I was actually I was erm aware that time is passing us by. Who made the comment er, about people walking themselves at night ? Would that be safe to say that most of ? It's becoming sort of fairly topical erm where there, and it is, more perhaps related to the fear of crime than the actual crime itself, where, people are afraid to go out for fear that they're going to be personally attacked, whether it be you know, answering the door at night in their own homes, or actually, you know, going to their cars. None of us like to go in poorly lit areas, it automatically raises our fear level doesn't it? Or we feel unsafe. And we've all been in situations where we've walked into an area, whether it be, sort of a car park is poorly lit, or you've gone down a lane that's perhaps been overgrown by bushes and things like that we generally don't feel as confident. And it doesn't just apply to woman, it can apply to men as well. It's not something I particularly thought an awful lot of until I came on crime prevention, because before that I was in police uniform with marked cars with the radio, although half the time in Harlow, the radios don't work cos we're getting . But it, it didn't worry me and I liked to think I can go about my daily life and not be frightened, and I am not gonna be frightened to go out at night. . But on crime prevention, I'm for most part in plain clothes, I use my own car work and, I'm not in a marked car, I don't have a radio because my job, as I said from the beginning is very varied and therefore it's not practical for me to have a radio. So I'm out and about and quite often I go and visit people in their own homes out of the back and beyond of nowhere cos I just called out as a result of that and I suddenly thought I I'm highly vulnerable to them I could be subject to attack like anybody else, how will I protect myself? That was going to be erm , well I thought well I really haven't got the answer to that. So I immediately started to look into these things, which are personal attack alarms and it is a very basic er deterrent value. Many different types on the market, but when you actually start to look into them, erm, they reveal a few things, you can see by this one it's a fairly old one, but it is for for demo purposes only, this is one by Polycell, it's battery operated in a plastic cases and it's handy because it's got a torch but when you actually put the alarm on it goes my gadget's not working really. Oh! As you can see, the battery runs out! So I don't think they're very good. Erm as well as that, if you drop that, that's going to smash as one of my colleagues discovered. I thought well, I don't favour that, I'll go and have a look at cylinder type. This one is called a walk- easy very effective, particularly good for people with arthritic hands because erm it doesn't take an awful lot to actually press down the top. But how effective is it? When you start to discover this one actually does travel through walls, the sound of it does actually does travel through walls, but as I say, it's only a temporary measure to buy yourself a little bit of time she says. That's one on it's way out really so But that sound would be continuously repeated. It does. Yes. That one actually locks on. The one that I tend to use most of the time is this one not least, because it only three pounds, and it's quite affordable but a , again, it's got a loud sound to it, and I found that if you carry one of these with you and somebody does approach you, you've always got this in your pocket and you can actually aim it them, cos they don't know what you've got in your hand. If you actually put that up to near where he is it could even . Is it ! incredible isn't it ? I like the cylindrical type. I like this because you can actually Aha. clip it onto your clothes It's an idea, innit? Yeah. Yeah. it's handy to keep in your pocket if you're walking the dog at night. That's a nice one. So I thought well I'll carry one of these for when I'm going out in my car to which, you know,and if somebody does come up to me I can use it in a positive manner while in a split second time for me, hopefully beca , cos of my range of work Mm. to get out of that situation. I'm not a black belt in karate, and I'm don't suppose most of you are. Okay? There's a whole group on me then I'm not gonna stand about erm , but if it's a one on one I might stand a chance. So I think that is certainly worth it, if not least for the ladies to consider. It's an idea. But I want to bring something Mm. out which doesn't include the men. You've probably all been in situation where you seen people zigzag across the road because they think they're being followed the ladies will do it because she thinks a bloke is following her and the men are probably thinking does she think I'm following her? And carry on down the road. It's a very difficult situation because nobody knows how to react. Now, some men think right, I'll walk across the road others will think well I'll stay behind because it might be safer cos there might be somebody lurking in the corners none of us know quite how to react to that. And you'll find that the it's normally the woman that takes the initiative and crosses the road which she's unsure of. The idea is though, that you don't put yourselves in risk situations in the first place. You don't go into areas that are poorly lit if you can help it, you don't take a short cut through the dark woods because it'll save you five minutes on your journey, stick in well lit,we well lit areas. How many of the ladies here are drivers? Right. On the back er table there there's a brochure called Women at the Wheel, it's a Vauxhall er application please do take a good copy, very good application. Who knows the break down,el , the procedure for break downs on motorways? What you should and shouldn't do? Come on gents, you should know as well! Whether you stay with your car or not? That's understandable. Lock yourself in. Stay in the car stay with the car and put these erm, motorists lights on. Stay in the car? Mm. Any advances on that? Anybody think any different? Have one of those things in the car and you speak to the R A C or the A A Yeah. clearly But if it's lady,cos I couldn't afford one of those ! Yeah ! I know. They are expensive. Actually I think they're they're well advertised for what they are. No, actually, no don't sit in the car. The nearest phone. If you're on a motorway it's, it's maybe it's before you, every mile on a motorway there is an S O S phone box okay? When you pick up the rec , the, the hands it will actually take you through to the nearest police control room area now, if it's on the M eleven then most of the calls will go into Chelmsford, our police headquarters, once you cross over the borders and go into Metropolitan area, then that goes up to the Scotland Yard in their control rooms. Every telephone box has a unique telephone number, once you pick that up, it actually flashes a little signal, we can pinpoint exactly where you are. Now they're not the easiest things to speak into because the noise volume of the traffic is quite horrendous so you have to shout. Has anybody broken down here? Anybody been through this experience before? Yeah. Yeah. It's a horrible experience because the the through traffic goes so fast erm, so anybody who actually doesn't know quite what you have to do. On the marker posts that you see, the next time you, you travel past them at ninety miles an hour if you get time to see them, there is actually, a picture of the telephone headset and a number under that headset there will be an arrow pointing you in the direction of the nearest emergency telephone. If you get a post with two arrows it means you're exactly half way and you've gotta make the decision for yourselves. If you break down and you can drive to the nearest one, then do so, it i if it's something like a, your wheel, or your tyre's gone down, then drive. Yes, you're gonna damage your wheel, but you'll be safer that way. If you've got no choice but to get out and walk then you are gonna have to do that, and that's all very well being a day like today, where it's not pouring down with rain er, you're not walking in a pitch black area, but if you do suddenly change that and you put it into those sort of, well that sort of scenario you'll find it's very, very, frightening. What we have to say is, straight from Essex Police if that happens to you, get out, wherever possible on the passenger's side of the vehicle and then go to your nearest box and then you pick up the receiver and get through the police control room and they will ask you a series of questions, have you broken down? Are you a member of a national breakdown ? And are you a woman on your own? Cos women on their own, or with young children get priority. You know,. That all erm came about as a result of the Marie Rivers case Mm. And so we do try and give priority to, to ladies on their own. Given, obviously the fact that you've broken, and if you are a member of a breakdown organization they will call them out for you. If you are not, and I have to stress this very carefully then they will call the nearest available garage and the garage will come there very quickly and they will tow you off into the nearest exit and there they will leave you and that can cost you probably, in excess of ninety pounds. So it does pay you to be a member of R A C, National Breakdown, A A or whatever because at least most of them provide a service where they can take you to your destination and or arrange further transport for you. So, bear that in mind cos it wi , even if it's just sort of fifty yards up the motorway, that's where they'll drop you then you're on your own. Once you've made your call, they might ask you to stay by the phone erm, to to contact you back it might be that they ask you did you want anybody contacted to tell them that, that you've broken down, they will do that for you. You can ask them, if it's urgent, then they will do that. Then, we ask you return to the area of your car, but do not get back in because you run the risk of being injured erm, through cars ploughing into the back of you, far more than you, as much for a personal attack. So that is why, being a good boy scouts, and girl guides that you are you are gonna put things in the car so that you're, you are prepared for wet weather, or cold weather erm, such as an old blanket or something to sit on er, because we like you to sit upon a bank as far away from the traffic as possible It was just a very low part, there was a little shopping area just round there at the time er, a butcher's shop and a greengrocer's shop and a Post Office, Street was the Post Office on the corner, and then Street and Road which lead down into , Lane and just round oh just round there you see, but I was born at the last house in the Street almost at the bottom of Street. Now then what else do you want to know? What sort of house was it? Oh just an ordinary house, nothing er nothing pretentious. A terraced house? A terraced house yes, yeah. And how many rooms downstairs? Three up three down. And where did you move from there? We went into Street for a few years and then we came up here in nineteen twenty eight. Erm why did they move to Street, your family? Oh it was a bigger house, better house altogether ah that was a very nice house, a very nice garden as well. Was that sort of house typical of the area? Well it was a question in those days whether you got a bay window or a flat window I mean erm the houses down Street are better quality I suppose really er all property around there is rented, I mean no one bought the houses at all not even up , I mean they were all rented houses. Er and I remember, I remember Street West, when the right hand side of Street west going from Road, every house was empty before the First World War and they gave somebody er somebody who lives in the end one and they were rent free if they keep all the rest clean, and always you see house to let where wherever it was in every street there was houses to let, and the price of the house in Street must be about eight shillings a week in those days, and then if you went up to I mean you'd get in the twelve and sixpenny bracket and down in, those houses down in the that they were ten and six or something like that er So would you say that that was the smart side of ? Oh yes yes, yes you'd say that was the smart side of Caldmore, but er What ways did the families differ then that lived in those sort of houses to the families that lived in the terraced houses ? Oh I I think, think that they differed in as far as they were a tiny little bit more ambitious and wanted a sort of erm a a little bit better life, but everybody even in the terraced houses they were all very respectable people, very respectable people I mean er I Were any of the families considered rough? No, no I can, I can honestly say that I don't think there was any, any what you can call rough families as I can remember. Now you take all those, take Street and Street, they were all very respectable people and er I don't think you could say there were any slums about at all as far as I can remember. Now you go to Road and Street and round there, probably that wasn't quite as er as nice but Street and Street they were very nice people, very respectable. So some streets were considered better than others? Oh yes yes er I should say that er Street er Street then you get into Palfrey now you see Palfrey was a little bit less due to the fact that there were a hell of a lot of railway men at work down there, I mean really all belonging to some department on the railway, you get er drivers and all the men and the permanent way of being in Street I mean a lot of people from Palfrey lived down lived in Palfrey was working in the permanent way in Street, so it was a really, Palfrey you could say was a railway community. Now if you come to Caldmore, you'll find out then that the majority of the married ladies had worked in I mean I should say that erm I know my mother was very snooty she'd been an apprentice to some dressmakers in Street and work for one year for nothing she always used to tell me, and she was quite er toffee- nosed about these girls that used that er that used to go, well they were very respectable people, and when I was a kid when I growing up in my teens a lot of the girls I used to know were in the offices at er it they employed about fifteen hundred people at in those days you know I mean coming out of at night it was fighting your way against the crowd if you were going towards it, and the same thing going through the square for people who have worked in when they left that's why all those shops in the square used to do reasonably well, it was the people walking through to go up the other side of Walsall, but there was a crowd of people I can, I can always remember as a kid a crowd of people and then there'd be well you can tell it was along Street in those days I can remember fruiters' carts where the girls used to go and buy apples, and that all sort of going along there you know people used to wait for them coming out, these are my impressions as a kid I mean I can remember the, the er and the men of course were cutters and various people and a quite a lot of my father's friends were, were er had er skilled jobs at as cutters and managers of the cutters' department and that sort of thing. Then, then of course there weren't no traffic signs in the middle of the road, it was a sort of er certain people from went and started that up and er they were all wor all worked in Caldmore it was almost as though the tailoring Caldmore was full of tailors in a way then there were people starting up on their own making clothes, but er there was quite a lot of tailors around er I know there was he'd got a shop on Caldmore, he was a tailor and er shall we go through all the shops? Yes. Well we'll start off at the top of Road and on the one side there was the furniture people they used to make furniture. Did they make it on the premises? Oh yes they made it Miss has just died erm then coming down there was the Post Office with old Pa and the, then the Miss , they used to keep the Post Office, then there was er well there was a gents outfitters and then there was a beautiful shop I always used to think, it was called, another , but it was confectioners, but it was all most delightful old oldy-worldy sort of shop and my mother often used to go in there then you'd Tell me a bit more about that shop then. About that shop. There was a Victorian air about it somehow there were, there were quite ladies who'd kept it, almost the same sort of thing as you'd find out in the country, country Ye Olde Elizabethan Coffee Shop type of thing you know, they they'd be the er there was that atmosphere about it and you'd buy lovely cakes and things like that. Then coming on to the end of Street next door was a milliners, now that nobody knows what they are today Miss the name was and then coming across Street to the other side was which was a drapers, and next coming down was Smiths the butcher's shop, and next to that was the grocers, following on down there was the ironmonger, then there was the newspaper, and you come down to the White Hart erm then we come to the White Hart Do you remember anything about that? Oh yes er I think somebody kept it around father's day, a chap named , but it was a beautiful old place and he always, because my father always used to erm start off about seven o'clock in the morning to walk down to Walkers and er call in at the White Hart because they were open at six o'clock in the morning, for a rum and coffee for about tuppence or thruppence, then he always used to er go to his mother's for his breakfast and er he used to go down and see all the men start off and then, then slip over to his mother's, she lived on the Road and er she, for years and years this went on that he had his break he never had his breakfast at home he'd start off going down there and come back to his mother's, but he always stopped at the White Hart for his rum and coffee Did many people go in ? Oh yes yes oh well yes for a rum and coffee yeah, and I'm afraid it was very acceptable on a winter's morning, but erm now we come, we've come on that side of Road, we'll now start at the top of Road again and come along as far as er what I call Street I believe it's now where St Michael's church is, and you come to Sammy the butchers. Now Sammy was a character in himself he was a bachelor and his wi his sister was Fanny the elocutionist er and, and er there the women used to, to go into old Sammy's shop on a Friday night simply to be entertained by all the wisecracks and nonsense that used to go on in there, and somebody would say I suppose you're off this weekend and he'd say yes I'm off to my little widow in Wales, he hadn't got a little widow in Wales at all now but it would the start of the conversation going. My mother's been up there and she didn't come back for two hours and she came back we kept well he'd sold a lot of meat in the meantime. The next three shops was which was a er he become I think in the finish but it was a toy shop and then you came to er the fruiters, on the other side of Street, and you came down to er little pawnshop. I, I shall be seeing the you know in a few weeks time the daughter she's a, she's er Rene that was erm Eddie , who were very big pals of mine and we go to the anniversary lunch together so we're all over eighty but erm you couldn't the bread shop, was another confectioner's shop, and then turning round the corner you come to another shop, up two steps, which was and that was another type of confectionery and shop, then you get as far as the corn and seed people er they used to have a shop in Street as well, and then before the First World War there was the butchers and they sold foreign meat. Fourpence ha'penny a pound this New Zealand lamb was I remember. Mother wouldn't have anything to do with it whatsoever, don't you bring anything, any of that stuff into our house, I mean of course it be this New Zealand lamb had just arrived on the scene before the First Word War, I mean nobody was, anybody dare have it I mean they'd be standing on the pavement at eleven o'clock at night almost giving it away on Saturday night, but anyway that's all changed now, we all eat it. Then you got to er the picture house er that happened just before the First World War that was put up as far as I can remember, I know I used to go there and see erm the Broken Coin which was a serial picture and it was you know er where somebody was up to their neck in water one week and it would say that the continuation of this picture would be shown in this theatre one week from today and you . what was it like inside? Pardon? What was it like inside? Nice, very nice, you went up a long hall toward, as soon as you got er through the doors it was very nice really, quite, quite something for Caldmore anyway. Then on the corner of Street and Green was the tobacconist shop. Then coming along Street you come to the picture frame people and then the Conservative Club, then there was the big house further on towards the top of Street and that was owned by somebody named Winnie , was my second wife's she went to school with her they used but her father lived there, and on the other side of the road you got the toy shop and er the draper's shop on the corner of er Road then there was the newsagents and one or two people kept that, but that takes you from the top of Street straight the way up to Caldmore. Now on Green, now we go, we've come along from the top of Street right along Road, the toy shop then you get to the Kings Arms and on the other side of the road there was another pub and I can't remember the name of it, then there was the fish shop and then the Liberal Club then the pork butchers you'd think they were all full of meat. There were a lot of butchers. Butchers and er then there was the butchers and that was on the corner of and er and and then cross over there towards Street you've got the stores, then you come the, the er drapers, then er Tommy the butcher who was my first wife's uncle and then you come to a shop which was owned by one or two people, which was a sort of er general store and then my mother-in-law's shop a cook's which was What sort of shop was that? Which was a bakers and confectioners, they used to er bake at the, they got the er the bakehouse at the back and they used to make confectionery and high class bread. And what sort of shop was it itself was it a large shop? Oh quite a nice shop, yes very nice shop. Would they display the bread? Oh yes, yes in the, in the window yes I think and many and many a ticket I got when I first got married to my first wife I used to do my mother-in-law's little tickets for all the various custards, and, and Eccles cakes and four for thruppence ha'penny it doesn't of course I could print right you see she said, being a draughtsman I always could print right so I used to do the four for thruppence ha'penny. How much are they today? Well I bought, I bought three custards the other day and I think they were about fifty three pence. Have you got any special memories about any of these shops at all for any reason? Any that you used to go in a lot that you can tell me about? Perhaps for instance. Oh yes I used to go and fetch the er erm I used to go into every week, oh there was the maypole next to as well. I used to go and fetch the, the butter from don't bring margarine my father used to say we put better stuff on our machines so er I used to go to for my father kept foul, I used to fetch a peck of, bushel of this and a bushel of, you know all the various things that, bran and stuff for the foul yes, yes and I believe a lady, she has, she's only recently died and but she kept it for a long long while Elsie her name was. And what was it like inside were ? Oh yes, sacks of other and they used to have a proper corner seedman's shop, which you don't see about today the er Garden Centre has knocked all that on the nut hasn't it really? What about chemist. Whereabouts was that? That was er coming down from Street you come to then you come to the grocers and was next- door there that's the only link with Caldmore as it used to be and Caldmore as it is now Maybe because it's still there. Yes probably yes. And what sort of shop was it in your day when you were young Michael? Oh quite a nice shop. I used to know, I used to play at tennis with Bay , the daughter and er the eldest daughter she married another chemist and he ran the place afterwards I think, then there was Jack but er I, I used to know, I used to know quite a lot of the er people on the, who kept these shops. Was it the sort of chemist that erm was it the sort of chemist that you'd go in if you'd got something the matter with you and rather than go to the doctor, they would sort of dole out something for you? Well I've never had the experience and I don't think my family have, I er no I shouldn't think it was really, they might, I suppose somebody, they used to have a reputation at one time these chemists was doing minor, giving you something for some minor ailment, but I wouldn't care to sort of er, I'd never think of it, no there were quite a lot of doctors about you know, there was er Doctor at the top of Road and there was Doctor , Doctor oh there was a lot of doctors about. Were you sent to Sunday School when you ? Oh yes rather. Which one did you used to go to? Well my mother was one of the pillars of the Palfrey church and er she er oh I went, my father never used to go, but she used to go and of course I, I used to be an altar server down there when I got a bit older I did for a week or two to the erm do you know anything about an Anglo-Catholic Church I mean where they swing the incense and there is this little boy with the boat? I was that for about, I soon got fed up with that job. How old were you when you did that? Oh about eight, seven or eight, but when we first went there the honourable S G W was the vicar, fourth son of the Earl of and er, oh you he was there then afterwards er Father came, and I used to do altar serving oh I was never interested in it you know I was forced into it. Who forced you into it? My mother I remember there was a sale of work going on at Palfrey church once and bef I had just been made apprentice at Wolverhampton and of course I got amongst the, they, when they came the, the Derby day they were all having a bet on it so I, I said to the give them half a crown, so he said you can't have half a crown and he said what do you want it for so I said they're putting it on a horse was on this horse it won, so of course this sale of work was in great progress when I gets off the train at station and thought well I couldn't understand in er Palfrey Church Hall, so she was there in all her finery and I said we've won, we've won she said shut up, shut up she said but erm no I think the biggest character in Caldmore was Father . What do you remember about him? Oh I don't, I just, I remember that er if you walked down er Road at night you'd see him with his mortar board on and his curate by his side coming down to to post the letters, and then when all these ladies were in Sammy shop one night being entertained by Sammy erm Father and his curate went by, and old Sammy turned round to the audience and said well if dressing up will get him anywhere they'll be on the first row in heaven. I was there that night I was, sometimes when I was a little boy I used to go with my mother you know to, for the ent I didn't know whether, yells of laughter used to come out of his shop. I'm trying to explain to you that there was a different atmosphere about it, the whole situation, I know they were hard times, I know that some people had some really rough times but it didn't show very much, and when I come to think of all my parents' friends I don't remember anybody having a wife bashing episode or they all seemed to be very contented with their lot somehow except one, and that was a little bit dicey when I was a little kid, but the man died and the Observer the next week the er obituary notice was put in the paper and underneath they'd got, with Christ which is far better and my father said and they she couldn't have said anything better words Do you remember anything more about Father ? Yes oh I ee I, I'm led to understand that he, he built that church and I'm led to understand that at the same time he started, he came as a curate to St Matthew's and then he came to Street into a house and he had a little, he started a little church down there in a private house and then he built the church. He very wealthy, but oh dear dear he was a, he was a, tyrannical I should call him, I know for a fact that he used to before the choir walked in at night he'd have his watch out in his hand and they'd start at exactly the same time. I remember when he always used to read out during the service before the sermon the previous week's collection and it used to consist of the collection last Sunday consisted of one pensioning note, twenty ha'penny half crown pieces, forty florins and he'd go all through the coinage down to the last ha'penny but erm oh I believe he was, he was er very aristocratic, very aristocratic, but er Father , cos he used to come over our house quite a lot when my mother was on the parochial church council, and er he had a curate that was quite leftish and he got himself on the old Board of Guardians and of course he used to sort of er go into the Labour Club and was quite of er father, he said to old Father one night he said erm he's a funny chap your curate he said well he , he's the son of a farm labourer he says and I'm the son of a country squire and that's the difference. So that was the attitude hey, but erm they'll have me up for libel here. Tell me about some of these other characters around, can you recall anyone? Well old was, was er absolute er you'd never think anybody'd would buy anything out of his shop, er my father went in for something once and he, and he said you can see them hanging up can't you, I mean er salesmanship was on unheard of as far as he was concerned they were there, why ask him if he'd got any, but erm course you must remember I was only a little boy I mean I can remember all this, I took it all in but I wouldn't say that I knew them er I knew Miss , from the grocer's shop she was a Sunday School teacher, and er the Sunday School used to be at Road School we used to have a Sunday School there and a Mr used to take this. He was another character er there was er I remember they used to have a lot of socials and things at the church you know, it was very well attended I suppose in those days. Don't know what it's like now. What about the Conservative Club and the Liberal Club did they, were they more social clubs? Oh yes, er yes they were, they were er of course there was a great divide there I mean between the Liberals I mean they were the only two parties in those days. The Conservative Club was there before the, the Liberal Club. I think if the Liberal Club was only like First World War it wasn't there it hasn't always been there but the Conservative Club was there as long as I can remember. Do you recall any of the activities that were associated with either of them? Did what? Do you recall any of the activities that were associated? Well I was in the tennis club when I was a er they used to have a tennis court at the back. Which club was that? Conservative Club, and my wife she wa we were both members there oh and there was a, I tell you another shop that probably I haven't mentioned, just before you get to the White Hart there was Thompsons the butcher's shop with er they got three or four er daughters I remember. Why do you think there were so many butcher's shops? there was a lot of meat I suppose really I mean erm answer. I mean were there sort of different quality meats being sold all the rest were No difference No of course one or two of them had slaughter houses at the back of them you know. I see I mean er Which were those? Well Tommy used to slaughter all his cattle and er you see my father-in-law's bakehouse and his slaughter house were next to one another an open yard at the back of the shops and er How did the cattle arrive? Oh driven up from the station from the, from the goods yard oh yes. Was that in Street Walsall or ? Yes a long street or somewhere around there, and yes I mean many oh many a time I've, you'd see ca every Wednesday night you'd see the cattle being driven up. Always the same night was it? Yeah, and one got stuck in the, there was an entry between my father-in-law's shop and the next one and one of these cattle ran down the entry and got stuck in the entry, you know it was only narrow and the they had to shoot it, but er oh yes it was a, that was a thing you never hear of today and you never hear of people putting tannin down when people are ill do you? You see Walsall being a leather town there was a lot of this er bark tannin as went and when anyone who was ill so they wouldn't hear the noises of the horse driven vehicles going by they used to, for about fifty yards each side of the house they used to put this stuff in the road to deaden the sound. Do you recall this being done? Oh yes. And what, where did this happen that you remember? Oh I've known it happen all over Caldmore. So it was a regular happening? Oh yes they put this, this tannin down it was like a bark I don't know what it was cos I'm not in the leather trade, I, I don't know much about it except that it was some by-product from the of the er tanning process, and they used to put this stuff down when people were ill. So with you mentioning leather then it leads me onto another question erm was there much done in the way of leather work in the Caldmore area? Oh rather yes, out-work, people used during the First World War there were no end of people were sort of er especially if they'd had a bit of experience in the leather industry like harness and saddlery and that sort of thing, especially the harness and er other work attached to leather cavalry and er revolver holsters and that sort of thing, they'd do them at home you know oh yes there was er now Walsall's divided isn't it? It's got leather and, and iron and steel, now you come onto the Road and you wouldn't think there a leather factory about would you? Because from top to bottom it was all connected with iron and steel the whole lot all the way down. You go from er Hopeworths, Mason and Burnhams, John , Gill and Russells, Walker Brothers it was er a terribly industrial, well you could fi Road used to be all granite sets in the road, there wasn't the, because there was so much traffic went up and down er it was all made of granite sets when I, when I was a kid, but my, shall I tell you what I used to do when I was a kid for my Saturday morning? Well first of all I'd go down Street and up Street West and up to the top of Street and there was some puddling furnaces, the new side iron works and I'd watch those men they'd produce wrought iron and during the process the metal boils up and I'd have to get a big rubbling bar and rubble they'd call rubble into a ball, there's a little wagon put underneath the put under the wagon and off he goes to the steam hammer, now I used to be fascinated with this and Saturday after Saturday I used to go up there and watch one of the heats and as soon as they'd finished doing they used to go into the Forge and Hammer for a drink, I mean it was such hard work so they'd do a heat go up the Forge and Iron and come back and then do another heat when I'd How long would it take to do a heat? Oh I should think it would be the best part of an hour and er then I'd go along Street down into Walker Brothers call in my father's office. Can I go in the rolling mills? I used to go into the rolling mills and watch them rolling steel sheets and over about half an hour there, this was Saturday after Saturday after Saturday I used to do this. I'd come along Road and up Lane into Street to a shop that had got rabbits in the window. I used to walk along there to see these rabbits I think the name was and they, it was a barber's shop that had got these sold all sorts of pet things and that I used to, then I used to come home that was my Saturday morning, but I always used to go in up to the news line. Now the funny thing about it, when I took metallurgy I got, I, I got all this process I knew all about it you know, and er I had it the theory explained to me then, but er I was in the Bell one day about twenty years ago and an old boy came in and I started talking to him and he says, I bet you don't know what I am? I said no I don't, he said well what I was anyway he said I'm retired now. He says you'll never guess. I said well what was it? He says I was a puddler. I said, were you? He said you don't know what that was, that is do you? I said I do a bit, so er he said, well do you know anything about it? I said a bit, and I never let him know, I thought I'll wait a little bit until he go so he says to me, he says I bet you don't know why they put the damper in just before they'd put the, bring the ball out do you? I said yes I do, he says you know? I said course I know I said to put some of the carbons from the smoke back into the, into the er wrought iron, he says how did you find that out? And I told him that er all about it, but I said do they make, do they do this puddling these days, he says yes at West Bromwich they still do it, but er they used to do it up on Do you recall what they used to wear? Moleskin trousers. Were there any protective gear of any kind? No no just the used to wear like a, a pork pie hat. Did he wear anything in par No no no no not that I know of. Did you see them load the furnace? Oh yes they used to put pig sc iron and scrap in it. Pig iron you know er pig iron was what they had I've seen them pouring furnaces pouring it onto the pig beds, and you know when I was a kid when we lived in Caldmore from about half past nine at night all across West Bromwich, Wednesbury all over that area, you'd see the sky light up and it was due to the pouring of er pouring the pig iron. They open up the these blast furnaces and the, we'd all be in the open air and the reflection there used to be quite a reflection in the sky all round there. Did, getting back to Caldmore. Erm were there any small workshops around doing odd things you may recall, sort of small set-ups? No I don't think there were, there might have been one or two, yes I do know one that used to make some form of er something for the saddlery trade and you know those houses opposite the alms houses in Road, there are some alms houses on the one side, then there's some houses that lie up steps on the other side of the road if they're still there. The back of there there used to be one or two people who used to have little outhouses where they used to sort of make things, and my grandfather up the Pleck, he was a good locksmith and he had his shop at the back of the house and he cou he could watch the Walsall races going on, which is now where the Road is, from his workshop before Street was put and any of those and he could stand in his workshop and watch the races. And when would that be? Oh oh in the eighteen nineties I should think eighteen eighties, eighteen nineties. And did he have any men working for him or did he work on his own? Yes he er he had a nephew for part time but he was a now he was a Wolverhampton Grammar School boy. His two brothers both died with smallpox cos one was, they all three went to Wolverhampton Grammar School and they were a Wednesbury family and they died with the smallpox but I thought they were putting the youngest which was my grandfather for the best trai one was going in for law and the other was going in for medicine, and the youngest was go which was the same as engineering is today I suppose, and he went into the gun trade, and I can remember him, he was a grand old chap and er he used to come and bring the springs that he'd made and to temper them he used to throw them in the kitchen fire, and they'd die out and get them all out of the ashes in the morning, and he used to take his week's work in his waistcoat pockets and his day out was to get on the tram at the Brown Lion, and go straight through Wednesbury and right through West Bromwich up to the Constitutional in Birmingham to Greeners or Wembley and Scotts and he'd got these gun locks as he'd made during the week in his waistcoat pockets. They were very small then? Yeah. That's interesting. Yes and er my mother was frightened to death of guns because, oh he was a bit of a boy at heart I mean you can just imagine everybody used to bring the sporting guns to be repaired and there was guns floating about all over the place, and my mother was scared stiff of guns right till the time she died er, and he got mixed up with all these sporting connections you know like go off to shoots and various things and I think he did a bit of cock fighting in his day as well, but I've, I've got the exercise books that his two brothers. Do you want to see them? You can show me? I can show you afterwards aye you can have a look at them and see what you think about them. Erm yes aye that's the Pleck that's not Caldmore you know. Yes yes but very interesting all the same. Yeah oh yes he oh and he was erm being better educated than the majority of people in the Pleck he used to stand outside the Brown Lion to read the newspaper out to them cos they couldn't read, and he attended all the weddings, all the funerals and er made the wills out and he almost was the father confessor for the Pleck, and when the old steam tram came off the lines down in the Pleck, when there was a steam train coming through there, he was the man who put it on the rails again. What was his name? John . Tell me about transport through Caldmore when you were a young man. Do you mean public transport? Well both sorts. Non-existent until about I shouldn't think there was an a bus did come to the bottom of Road, I can't remember what was, it must have been about nineteen twenty I suppose something like that, it used to go to the bottom of Road and turn round there, but I never er my mother always used to say you'd ruin the trade, the trade down well I don't believe it did really er now I think the lack of transport now you've hit something there, lack of transport there encouraged people to shop in Green rather to go down the town cos you could get anything off Green you know, you just think you'd ju you, you smiled about the er butcher's shops, the grocer's shops, the cake shops, you could get the gents , you could get anything on Green the ironmonger shop, you needn't go anywhere else but, when they started transport er yes I think the buses had quite a bit gradually cos things that, you don't think get things happening in this country overnight I mean, they grow on you don't they? I mean you get a bus coming as far as Road and back I don't suppose it has half a dozen folks on what's this thing coming up here, nobody I'd er I've walked into Walsall all my life and but gradually the whole thing changes doesn't it, and then the thing gets off as far as West Bromwich, and in, then, then there's through traffic and then how far and the Green's not big enough to take the turn around up Road then they change the direction, and it's all done on bit by bit by bit and so Green's got eroded it's er So they took bits of Green away then? Oh yes they did for, for the increase in traffic I mean that er that er went on over the years gradually creep, creep, creep on until the whole atmosphere of the place was er I don't know improved should you say or not I don't know whether it's er well it certainly hasn't improved but erm it changed, it was such a lovely little place really, and of course you could run across the road whenever you liked I mean we used to play in Street of picking out in a sweet shop window er a name be Cadbury's or chocolate or something you'd be standing across the road and you'd be running backwards and forwards backwards and forwards, there was no sign of anyone getting run over cos there was nothing about, and when I was a kid going to the Bluecoat School I'd run across that bridge every morning without looking right or left, because if anything had hit me, well nothing used to be coming you could see a tram coming but oh there was nothing else at that time in the morning oh no it was, wouldn't like to run across today. What about private transport in Caldmore about this time, how was, what was that? Do you mean somebody who owned a er some kind of vehicle, tradesmen some of the tradesmen did but not many that I can remember, no I don't think there was too many of them. Would private individuals have their own transport? No no no no there was nobody, now er probably up at the top of Gallway there though one or two would have er stables I should think, one or two of those houses, but by and large no I shouldn't think so. Now there is another, another part it's very nice and that is round Lane and er Road and all round there used to be very nice at one time. Do you know it? Er I can't er Were there any open rural areas? Oh yes. Yes my playground. Go up Road, and from there turn down Follyhouse Lane the continuation of it and you'd come right to the Dales and nothing at all from there to West Bromwich, and you could see, if you go over one stile from one field then onto another and then brook that now runs through the Road there, that used to be a little country brook that run across the golf course and there was a little stile over it, a little bridge and a stile, then you go straight up to Dells common and not a house in sight. Was it open farmland? No , cut straight across it. I mean that's what cut straight the way across that it was, it was all and my aunt she used to live by All Saints West Bromwich, we never used, we never went to see them we used to walk it down the road past the Boars Head onto the Navigation Inn, and up by the Sandlow and she used to live opposite er All Saints Church in West Bromwich, and erm coming back we should come back round midnight you know and er have you ever heard of the Whirly Gang? Yes. Has that come up in your er in your well we were coming back there one night from my aunt's and er there were quite a lot of policemen about and I was only a little boy, it was before the First World War and my father said to one of these policemen, what's happening so, oh we had a tip-off he says that er there's these Whirly Gang folks and in the morning we saw somebody'd been maimed or killed, but er that was another bit of interesting news around, and I remember down in Caldmore one day there used to be some ladies who used to come from, well they used to be, one of them used to call them the salt ladies, they used to come with blocks of salt on a, on a I think they used to come from and I saw a horse there as a kid and I, it had got a long gash right across its body and I said to this lady I said, what's happened to this, she said oh the Whirly Gang and er I was in Paris in nineteen twenty two and er we got to this hotel and there was another Englishman on this trip and he said to me he said where do you come from? I said Walsall he said oh the Whirly Gang You just mentioned these salt ladies coming round. Yeah. Erm tell me a bit about that. Well all the way from, they used to come from and they used to have some sunbonnets on, I always remember they used to have the, I'm not a dressmaker but you know a la they don't like frills down the back that used to hang down the back and the I remember them coming round selling blocks of salt. Horse and cart? Horse and cart and of course milk was never delivered by, in bottles in those days. I mean that was always a milkman used, there used to be er James was one of the milkmen down Palfrey, he used to come . they used to pour it out of a can you know, it's a wonder we didn't all die of tuberculosis but we didn't. Did anyone else come round the streets selling things? Oh yes the watercress man on a Sunday afternoon and er all the various things were s fruiters, fishmongers, all used to bring their stuff round. How did you know they were in the street, did they have a call? Shout, they'd shout something but er well since we've been living up here, my mother used to give, the man used to come for the order for the grocery, the baker used to come round, the milk used to come round, they all used to come round at she'd ha she didn't have go out for heavy loads of stuff to bring in it was all delivered, but when they started some new technique of er of ordering by computer, it's going to come back to square one again you know, they'll be delivering stuff in the same jolly old way hey. Could be yes. Yes don't you think? Could be yes, yes. Give it fifty years and I'll bet you that the baker and all the rest of the folks, it'll be coming from a supermarket, but they'll be delivering stuff that you've put on your computer. That's right that would be interesting. Hey er well, during, just after the war they started these concerts in the Temperance Hall. Now the Temperance Hall was a very very nice hall er balcony all the way around, it held five or six hundred people er candelabras and all the rest of it, a lovely stage and these travelling concert parties used to come round on a Saturday night, and I should imagine they'd be doing the seasides during the summer and then they came back in the Walsall and various areas during the er winter months, and we used to get concert parties like The Roosters and The Bonbons and all those sort of people come along and they were real and of course fellas my age, I mean eighteen and nine we used to take our girls there I mean it was full of young people er you'd perhaps have been to the pictures one night and it's another way of entertaining really and it was really a first class entertainment. Well my pal and myself we took these two girls and we sat in the middle of the Temperance Hall and he said come on let's sit over on the balcony he says and put up my clothes by the radiator he says it's been raining he says and it will dry them, so we moved, and exactly from were we moved was where the women got killed, just candelabra dropped on her and er when it happened the fella on the stage the comedian was singing, a hundred years from now you won't be here, and I won't be here and from the corner of my eye I could see something gradually dropping like one of these candelabras and I thought hello that's part of the act you know, it was just gradually coming down and all of a sudden, whooosh and the roof came straight in oh and I don't know sure I'd I, everything went dark of course I mean it was all in blacked-out all the chairs were loose, so as the folks wended their way towards the exit doors they took the chairs with them, so they politely threw them back in the crowd that stood in the hall so you were dodging chairs as well as trying to get out, where we were, where we were seated the firemen were hacking at the windows thinking that it was a fire because all the dust had gone up in the air and the reflection of the light from the market I suppose and that would give the appearance of smoke, and he was, I said to this fireman I said there's no fire, he says, he says there is I said there's no fire in here, anyway we eventually got out but I took these girls back home to and I really, it was, properly unnerved us both and as we came on that old tram we were, we thought you know everything seemed to sort of upset us and when I got far more upset on the Sunday morning when I went to have a look at it, the whole roof had come right in, but there were fifty people got injured you know and about, oh there was one lady killed. I knew one of the girls and er she never got right properly again. She got injured in her back somewhere, but er it was national news, I mean it was in The Mirror and all the papers and it became a, for a day or two it was er it was in everywhere, and the theory is that er it was this erm very very dry summer and a very very wet autumn and a bit of dry rot in the timbers somewhere, but it was it was another How long did it actually take you to get out of there? Oh, half an hour. Quite a time really? Yeah, yeah, oh yes of course a lot of the people were, that were in the we were in under the balcony but they were up to their knees in plaster and goodness knows what that had come out of the roof they couldn't move it all dropped round them. So they had to wait to be dug out did they? Yes I've Good gracious, was anyone trying to organize the ? Well you can't in the dark can you really? You can't really, you see we came out into a side door into the old square. I don't know what happened to the front entrance, but there was a basement underneath there and my first wife was dancing in Harvey Martin's dance hall underneath, her pal and herself she, they'd gone to this dance it was a dancing lesson on a Saturday night it was famous in those days Harvey Martin's dance class er yes I Was, was there any damage down ? No no no. In the basement, it was just on the Just on the top yeah on the top of it That's about all I can tell you about that, but er it makes you wonder whether I hadn't better keep out of Street, doesn't it? Right, erm, eighteenth of January, er, Department of Finance and Administration Cascade Meeting. Er, Great North House, Northern Development Company. O K Marion, would you care to kick off? Yes, O K, erm, I brought what I thought would be a help from last week. Did your report back?we didn't have a meeting the first week, did we? Marion? and I wasn't in the last week so I doubt whether Do you want one on last week?, It's all there I assume, O K, right, O K, yes Erm, the quarterly report went out towards the end of that first week, erm, with the annual finance statements, erm, we're ple , quite encouraging because of the erm, S and E enquiries, were actually done on his proportion for once. Only just, but, because er, a hundred and eleven, if the enquiry's a hundred and six or constitutions, which is quite good, and obviously December was really quiet but then that's standard anyway, because , quite possibly not because it was sort of erm, he's shown with an which didn't So it's something folded back on one side yes,? I mean it's not that vital to me, but I hadn't Yes Yes. , but I'm not surprised, so, erm, in our previous visit they did give us Then was down in Middlesbrough for a couple of days that week, and er, I think amused everybody by calling it miserable all the time, I dread to think what . I told you how he was on the phone that day, I mean, he hadn't the foggiest idea of what, what he was doing or where he was going, I don't know. I think he got on er, quite well down there, because he'd spent a few days up here he had a better idea of what he wanted to ask, and what he wanted to talk about and so on, but erm, only because his deadline's and do you want to ring? Ah, right, I don't, I think it's now been called regional Christmas Day Makes a lot more sense, O K At Mercury, he clocked the sponsorship erm, late last year. Right, I must get some literature actually from Barry because as you know, it, it, we can't get it all out of the now, Right, oh and Phil went to the Stoke conference on that Thursday and Friday. He got bored silly and considered it a complete waste of time. Which I did try to tell Erm, I seem to remember that's the day that East Anglia kind of just disappeared in Mm, yes, yes. That's right, I was supposed to have a meeting on with erm, a couple of guys from the British Coal Enterprise down in Middlesbrough with , but unfortunately again the weather caught all of them out and they decided not to come, but didn't occur to them to say they wouldn't come, so I sat down there for an hour, and eventually managed to find a phone number and get in contact and the guy was still there, and he said oh no I'm not coming up. This was like quarter to twelve, he should have been there at eleven o'clock. No he got stuck in London the night before because of the bad weather, and he started saying oh I'm sorry I don't think I'm going to be able to make it. Well I said, I was a bit concerned, I said it would be nice if you could let us know and Especially since you travel er, er, twenty or thirty to get there. Yes, that's right, yes, I mean until you get there. I mean he knew that because he'd contacted me up here and I said well, to make it easier for you we could meet in Middlesbrough, save you coming up from er, Mansfield. I said well, it cuts the, it cuts the journey in half then. I wasn't too happy about that but never mind. Erm, what else, last week I had a meeting with Mike and Yvonne from D T I and Phil. I was looking forward to talk a bit about er, what they're doing er, in the way of seminars and so on this year and how we can tie in with it, and how we're going to erm, actually take over the forum plan for Eurofile. It's typical, they just accepted it all, so it didn't really achieve a great deal, but Mike told me quite a lot of things that I don't really have any idea, or I didn't know about, What achievement of financial business will four year plan, will it make anything else? I can't see that they can afford to be a high profile company? They're going to erm, they're going to give the money towards running a forum, but not a great deal, and then it doesn't even cost that much, it just really a question of erm, mailshots and twice yearly events or whatever. You don't think it'll be once they put the money Yes, so it's, you know, it's like two mailshots up once a quarter or whatever,minutes, and I'm paying for a lunch. you're thinking of direct costs, but erm, Phil was going to ask Jeff if he would chair it, and also if he'd be willing, to be sort of editor in chief, of Eurofile, so that was yesterday, and I haven't seen Phil since, don't know what happened with that and went to him that it was a briefing meeting. yes This individual just about won, in fact it was over by ten past two. Yes, Oh I, yes, I can see here, yes, that's only two It's more than I saw of him. Mhm, Why I'm not sure Walkies But erm, yes, so I still don't know what's happening with that yet, and I'm waiting also for them to confirm a date for this first sort of Do Business in France seminar, that we're going to help them with, which was originally going to be February, and is now going to be March. We think it was going to be the seventh and the eighth and the ninth, and they've told Newcastle City it's the ninth, but she was meant to confirmed last Wednesday, and she's still not. So erm, I've had a word Are export involved in this, I mean it seems quite if they're not? Mm, yes, but the trouble is they're not going to be interested in Europe, so they're not, Western Europe . They don't know how useful it would be but anyway, they said there, there's, it's a slightly odd event because it's actually going to be just in the Civic Centre, and er, and kind of tacking on some workshops and things, so I'm going to help her with workshops and have a display stand and so on but other than that, we've not really got any direct input into it, because it is very much, sort of, you know, this is how you do business in France, these are the financial problems, type of thing. It's just a good workshop,yes Which I was for shying off anyway, because I don't think it's any of our, our business. I'm mean they've got export people that know about that, and E C people one of those things. Yes, that's right, so I said you know, it's on a general level, I said yes, fine. But, er, other people start bringing up sort of problems with the French tax situation on such and such a structure of company or whatever, which is not anything we want to get involved with. So I had a meeting with Dailey to talk about the workshops and so on, so we've bashed out the format and er, and what we think we'd like to do, but it's partly dependent on D T I, because it is their event, and we want to be seen to hijack it. Erm, I had a meeting with Ian and erm,Do , Dorothy. Mhm, and told them that you wouldn't be your present arrangement Erm, yes, quite They took it remarkably well really, but er, I think there needs to be soft There must be have contingency, because Anne'd go up the wall over that. You know, I don't know it was sort of well, have a little bit of a boss at Bill then, as a restraining influence in the past I'm no help either, I did sort of wonder what she'd say but she's. They've been sort of so falsely jolly in the past, it sickens me. Mr in there, actually last time he was in a while. Oh right, whatever you say, whatever you say . Just that patient's Hello, well Mr , well what can we do for you today young lad? I need a a few more tablets of the yellow ones, the . Oh right, right. And erm some for my work, you know I have that herpes in my lap, it's breaking out again. Is it breaking again? It's er it never was away, I'm it's a good indicator as to when, how much pressure I can take . Mhm. Er Was it Zovirax you were taking, wasn't it? No, you gave me something The other one? or something, Yes, that's right. But you can only use it up for a month and then you . Yes, oh aye, aye, just use it for the month Charlie and then, and then in the bucket, don't keep using it after that. Aha. It's not safe. Cos you just told me to use a wee bit of it. Yes, oh aye, you just need a wee drop of it, you don't need a lot. Put it on every day,, is that right for you? Are your other tablets, Oh they're okay erm just one thing, erm I went to the dentist up over there in Street, and he made a mess of filling two teeth. Mhm. and I reckon he broke them but he says he's no broken but I I I felt the tooth in two side of my mouth so I just stopped the treatment there and I'm going to another dentist some time but my wife, I don't want to go there now cos money's tight, I was on the D H S S, I was due to pay the first forty nine pound. Mhm. I paid forty pound ninety five, right? And I finished my treatment with him. If I go to another dentist do you think it's worth my while writing to D H S S, saying I've paid forty five, forty pound ninety five pence, at that dentist and can I transfer the treatment to this other dentist Mhm. and only pay him further eight pound or whatever . Whatever, yeah. Do you think that might be worth my while doing that ? Yes, I think so. Because erm It's a lot of money. Aha. So I When I went first he took one out there and he took it out clean, but this one here, in actual fact he gave me a stitch, and when the stitch wasn't in you could see the tooth protruding a bit. Oh right. And erm but when he took the stitch it's covered it up. Right. And my teeth are in bad, all my teeth are badly in need of repair. But Don't rush at it. I just wish it was all over, like now I had to last out until the thirty first of March, which I did do. Mhm. You did. But then again, when I was a a small boy the university professors that were interested in me told my father I'd do what I would have to do in my mid-forties. I'm forty, nearly forty five in January. Mhm. My father had a and he said it would be forty seven,say it would likely be forty seven, but that's forty seven is two year eight month away, which is a long time for me to keep it going. Also No. also some of the things that I've been going on with, doing this one with three, and I don't know if it, they'll stay in the can long enough for that. You know what I mean, so what, but again some come through with it. My father had another , everything was okay if you came out at any time after the thirty first of March, look all I'm doing now is I was giving back, er taking my position as the company director, getting a salary off the rent in my farms and small holdings and my shares in shipping. But now I'm just deciding I'll live off invalidity benefit for a wee while longer, leaving that in the hands of my my managing director and somebody else and the money that's coming through from the Queen and whatever I'm just gonna live on invalidity benefit, I'm only drawing invalidity benefit, I'm not gonna get any more money than invalidity benefit. Okay. Let this accrue up or whatever. You know Dr , when I was a young man this billionaire had his had his daughter and son kidnapped and held in a barn on his farm and they wanted twenty million pound ransom for them. So I was close by and so they sent me in so the way I , I got dressed up in the minister's cassock, and I got in revised the books of Genesis,like through and I get genned up to be a minister and I took in a bible and er well anyway I killed five men and they got out alive. But when I was seeing him he offered to write me a check for five million pound, I said, I couldn't take a check for five million pound because I was a to me. If ever you're needing a million or anything like that, write to me and I'll give you it. So with this going on we found our company would get on better if I had collateral so I wrote to this boy and asked him for a million and put it in a trust fund that I would get after his death, and we that way so okay. Right? So I came back er with a trust fund so what I'd done, Golf Course were having troubles, right, Golf Course. And one was going to but it off them for two hundred and fifty thousand so my mate said, You make the offer at two hundred and fifty and you'll help me, so I says, I'm getting it for two hundred if I say,an eighteen hole golf course, and I'll sell it back to them when they can afford to buy it back off me, right? Mhm. We're using that trust fund as collateral for a loan of two hundred thousand to buy the Golf Course and the golf course to make it profit profitable, and so the bank are now in the process of now selling it back to them, what they're offering, Excuse me a wee second, Charlie. Hello. so Right, okay. One firm offered them forty five, four hundred and fifty thousand pounds, I said I wanted three hundred thousand, cos I done a lot of repair, a lot of renovating, and I made the bar open and I made my money through selling drink and getting in entertainment. The best place to go like to go for a wee dance, the only place you could go for a wee da , that's the . We started making a profit. Mhm. But erm, I woul what, erm, I also, the Hotel, we bought that the same way, they were selling that back and making quite a fair bit of profit, investing the money in arable land. Mhm. Cos arable land pays for itself, it's all taken care of. So all I'm saying is I just want, I want to finish but again you're in danger cos I just carry on you see that's down there. Somebody broke into my house, I reckon I recognize person. Maybe I mentioned about the fillings coming out on this side of my mouth and at the back, so I ca They took it out in my living room and hypnotized me to forget, hypnotized walking about in my sleep with it,to sleep, got me in the chair and done it, got out of the house, programmed me to go to that dentist in , which I did do instead of going to Mr at . He broke two of my teeth extracting them but he says they're out clean, when I told him to take another X-ray of it. He only took the one but he didn't take two. So but he thinks I've got away with it but the pus in my mouth right now Aye. and they can look at this anytime. I must get my other teeth attended to and the cream can deal with . I I remember I knocked out a man's teeth in front of witnesses, just by using my mi my fist like that, hitting their tooth with a karate pass and brought the tooth out cleanly. One of these away at the back used to what it would be like to have teeth. But I'm the rest of the cream. Mhm. I'm under orders. Don't don't do anything. I mean I've even though about if I if I tell you this and you think that's it's going to put you you just even if you pass it on to somebody what I'm telling you pass it on, but just and I'll try and get the dental treatment where I can get the dental treatment. Say no more. Say no more. I'm just can you put me down for some paracetamols for the pain I've got pain in my in my my jaw. Right. Right. thing I told you about lady in red, remember that, a million and a quarter, Mhm. the Queen,Alexander , Sir Alexander , me, and and the piano player. Aha. I I forget his name, but it's all coming back,little children in well that's not bad isn't it,. Not bad, not bad at all. See s see how could I forget my life, how could I forget these things I'm telling you. time I forget but . Right, okay, I'll see you again young man. Thank you . Right okay , right now, look after yourself. I'm either telling the truth or , and I think I'm telling the truth. Look after yourself, right cheerio now. Er there you go. okay. Where do we switch it off if we want to switch it off? Erm you just press the press the stop button. They're Okay. all labelled and then press the red button again to get it going. Okay fine just for sake because she's going to write the erm minutes from that tape. Apologies, er Virginia and Jess . And so here this rural craft er thing which I wrote for which you asked me which is arriving from the last minutes, is I'll read it out to you. All work on display must be British of origin. We appreciate that raw materials may be foreign but it must not exceed thirty five percent of the finished product. This rule is being rigorously enforced this year. Work outside these limits must be removed. And they say you have to send in some of your product and then they come round to your stand and if it doesn't comply they just take it off your stand which is our whole merchandise really. Mm. So I think this is a great shame. Yes. Right well I'm coming back to this subject later on when we talk about er marketing. Right, that's matters arising from the last minutes, any other matters arising from the last minutes? Yeah well there's one one point on the letter received from the Charity Commission . Yes. Can you send them Yes well when you weren't here last time , Mm. we have had a letter back and it's exactly the same as I got when I rang them up, if they just say it must not exceed a certain amount and they won't be tied down to tell me. There is a letter here. They won't they they they just said, if it exceeds a certain margin, we recommend that you establish another trading company. And they won't tell you what the safe margin is, they just don't. Mm copy next meeting that's all. Yes well who has got the copy, has Jess got it then? I don't know it's just I think we sent the copy to Jess and Jess I think has the copy. Yes and yeah we'll have to give you that copy. Can we make a note of that Jess, that erm we will need Well it's already in the minutes. a copy. It's in the minutes last time. Yes last time we talked about it. Oh I see. But I don't think we have the copy here did we, we didn't see the letter. No. Sorry I So I think I think what I'm trying to say is, in the minutes that we produced for the last meeting, it says that a copy of it will be available for the next meeting Right. that is today. Yeah. Which Jessica isn't here today. Ah I see, so that's And she might have, she may well be was going to bring them today. Because she only rang up very shortly before the meeting saying that she couldn't come. It's er er somebody on business is visiting and they the wife has come and she has to entertain the wife. Er something she didn't expect and that's why she couldn't come. So er that has to just wait now until the next meeting. Any other things? No, shall I go onto the manager's report then? Mhm. Which they know all about . Erm the sixth of the twelve we had Radio York here and actually it was very nice because they just introduce our people here, you know the craft workers and th you've heard the tape. Mm. And they spoke for themselves and I think they promoted us well. And they also three times that day, very early in the morning, at nine o'clock and at lunch time, and always just between the weather forecast and the news I mean when people are switching on. Mm. Or is it the road conditions or something but peak times. I heard it certainly I heard it just going on in the car. And people have heard it which I think helps us in the long run. But the business we got from it won't be big, one lady rang up and said I heard about you on Radio York. Can I come and buy one cracker. I said, of course you can. And when she came she actually bought three. And that's the only customer after all that so I mean Mm. No easy answer. Then Des and I went to the wine selling party at and at you know made great a great effort and we did very well. Sold quite a few boxes of crackers there too. Did very well there, getting on for five hundred pounds. But everything is harder you know, everything is harder. It's not er you have to push for it now. Eleventh of the twelfth, Conservative Party Fair, well that one wasn't much good at all. You know they were sort of they were cheap stalls and and the people who came were the bargain hunters. Or some people like the s and you know who knew us and had bought already from us. Erm I think I sold twenty crackers. Lots of gifts. the rest was all gifts. Erm then on the seventeenth erm we had our part at my house, it was very enjoyable as always, but to be honest I almost collapsed, I really had had it by then. And er Mark 's sister and her partner, they are professional musicians and they do sort of Irish er Irish music. And they entertained us and then some carol singers came and we asked them in and they sang carols and the food was nice and everybody really was very happy and that was the start of our Christmas holiday. And then I came back on the forth to start off with the stocktaking which is not on the agenda I think. But let me just tell you we it's all counted, it's all written down. one thing Pat, I still need to know erm what stock we started all the selling . You will know what you made before the Christmas Fair. Mm. Yeah that's a figure I need to know. Okay. But otherwise everything's written down and we have bought the e of the computer but Wendy is familiarizing herself with it and it's quite hard work. Erm and it'll take us a little bit of touch actually now the computer evaluated. Oh yes er er yes and or well I came back and organized the workshop you know did the displays and things like that. And tidied up. And then Wendy came back on the Wednesday, the day after It's just a meeting R Er excuse me please, can I have the car keys ? You moving your blue car No No he will take the er the other one The one in the way. So Wendy came on the Wednesday and we got going with all the office work here. Er mainly the proposal and then everybody came back on the sixth which is quite a long break in Christmas but we do need that break till we organize ourselves after Christmas Yes I know I mean things like unpacking the boxes and taking it all out of the erm cracker er paper or all that, you know just takes time. And then we went to the er Pat and I went to the toy fair in Harrogate and one little thing has already come. We found a very nice you know we once had this push up horse, we now found a push up doll which is sort of quite nicely coloured and this little spinning top which I think is quite nice. We were going to buy something else but you couldn't do it so I think this is going to be very nice. I mean I feel quite hopeful about our gifts, it's always a big problem but I think we'll be all right. Erm then er I introduced somebody on the seventeenth for this teaching post, for the sewing club which Noel unofficially told me and Donald also rang up and said that we were going to get the money so I I've already employed somebody, I haven't got the letter yet. But erm I've I've told them, I haven't got the letter but it it should be coming. Have you got the money though? I know. But super super person we've got, unfortunately she might be offered a job at prison to take their sewing on and then she can't do ours. But she's setting it up and she will find us somebody to carry on. And I'm really excited about it and there's lots of interest, I think this places are taken up already. It's going to be six people. Erm then for of our administration well Celia really you should report Well you are saying it later on in your report aren't you about the administration skills course? Mhm. Well well I can say it now really four have taken the R S A one exam, and and did very well though very nervous but er er and but they sat there and they did it which was superb I mean we were as nervous as they were sitting in here. Mm. Erm but we won't get the results till mid March which is a shame. But we think that possibly three passed and maybe and one failed. But we don't know. Shirley We don't know but somebody had a look at it, Shirley, the teacher. Er but they did so much better I mean you know nerves really got a bit the better of them didn't it Well that's it's all about exams isn't it Oh yes I mean Then er we had the Christmas Fair meeting of which maybe you want to look at the minutes now. And the minutes were taken by one of the Admin students and it was typed No there. It's part it's part of your pack Desmond, I gave you papers and you should have in it erm Oh yes. I've got it I've got it and again, just look at the work you know. Can I make a point please ? Yeah. I think you should have a tw a twelfth clause on it, appoint a treasurer for the event. And have somebody who deals with all the income, all the banking and all the payments out. So you've got the all the cash being handled by one person rather than being bonded together and any other situation where we get Y y y you mean on the minutes? Actually on this. In other words Yes so we'll have that as a point. As a point. I think you need somebody there I I I to deal with it totally. Yes. Can you after the meeting dictate that point to Celia please. Erm Yeah I'll just put it in. Appoint treasurer for the event. All aspects. Yeah. Mhm. Could you write that down Celia just underneath Detail all receipts and banking. your that we've put that in as a recommendation. Yeah. Payment of expenses and provision of floats. Yes yes. I agree with you. It was done by too many people. I agree with you wholeheartedly as I really always do yes. Can I have a talk to you afterwards? Future events, erm this Saturday, a wedding service for Jim or the Sunday, Jim . And a wedding for that's Pat's cousin. Mm. Thank you. And er I haven't actually rung her yet to confirm that. So that's the manager's report. Then marketing and advertising. Well we've just heard we were had decided to go to the Harrogate Fair which we can't because our product isn't British enough. Erm it will I think leave a bit of a gap. Now I have decided and I hope you'll back that up to reduce our cracker production. Erm by a bit because we have now moved, the Monday morning we are going to have the sewing and the people from the Monday morning, we have put onto the the three other days when we make crackers. The people who make crackers on a Monday morning, we have moved to the other three days so that the Monday morning is free for the sewing. The teacher can only only come on a Monday morning. Also it suits me because all the other days weren't always completely full. We are one supervisor short for one day. So now we have a supervisor every day. And er we mightn't produce any less but I would quite like to produce a bit less. I haven't written it completely down here but erm and I want to do more boxed next year. Just I'm just talking about you know, two hundred less, something like that. Erm I mean we we have some left but I mean they're mainly empty which doesn't matter a lot I mean I'll them for next year. But it's been very very hard work selling what we've sold. You know I men sort of you know, for very little, like the Conservative Party you know, it was hard work lugging all the you know, you pack it all up, you lug it all there. And I really and truly, when Christmas came,i the first year I really thought, Oh I can't do this next year, it's getting a bit too much. So I don't want it to depend so much on last minute sales. And what I'm saying is that we make less cracker but with the advertising we're doing doing at the moment, in the magazine and Yellow Pages and I just want to kind I'm going to talk to you about what other ways of advertising. Well let me just start again. We have sold what we did through a lot of physical effort er of a few. You know, physical hard work, last minute. And I think, yes we will do all that but not quite to the extreme and we should try now and sell more during the year and really see how the flow goes. So instead of pushing pushing pushing, let's just see how much comes more or less naturally through advertising. There's the figures. The Christmas Fair account I'm typing now. Fine. Okay? Fine, yes. And we have been quite heartened by Where's my little list? We've had I think forty five enquiries and definitely one lady wants seventy from Sussex or somewhere, wants seventy crackers for one wedding. Now I'm hoping we get a bit more of that. And what we're doing is if you just look at your pack now, everybody who writes to us, it doesn't matter what they want, whether it's favours of crackers, they're getting a brochure which you know our brochure, which has the favours and crackers on. Ooh I need Wendy? Wendy, that letter we are sending to all new enquiries Erm so they get the brochure which has the er crackers and the favours. And then they get er D I Y pack which these two I know you saw that before but this is at the back of it. Okay, so this is not the price list you're used to, this is the D I Y price list. And in the D I Y price list, they can buy here a little pr er trial pack. Now on the trial pack we make a bit of money and it would employ somebody you know, somebody who's been ill. And people can just buy favours and then the instructions to make the favours are on the reverse side. I don't know how big the uptake is because actually it doesn't make a lot of sense you know, it's not that much cheaper. But competitors are doing it. So I think it's a good thing to offer it. And people might actually decide to buy crackers. Then we're sending a letter which erm, well let me just say, we are then also sending, now here with the D I Y, the numbers er coincide Here the numbers coincide with the illustrations, so if I talk about a certain you have to look at paper one, paper two paper three or A B C. And you see what they look like. Okay. And then as I say they can write off for a pack and they get examples which cost them. And then we are sending this. This is how they can fill crackers themselves. So somewhere there's a big party and o or somebody who wants three or four crackers and put their own gifts in. They can do it this way. And then I'm going to 's on Monday, they're going to photograph our Bridal box and they're going to get a photograph with printed on of our bridal box as well. So everybody gets all that. And then a letter saying, you know it's personalized saying,Dear Mrs Smith, thank you for your enquiry, I'm sending you the information you requested and also thought that you might like to have a l a leaflet about our bridal box. Favours are given to female guests only, crackers could be supplied for your whole wedding party, your females guests Oh gosh it's gusts. Must tell her that. Guests or for selected guests only. We can enclose your ow we can enclose your own presents in crackers, but you can also choose from the gifts we supply. See brochure. Crackers A B C can easily be filled by yourself, see enclosed instructions. The charg the charge per cracker is then one pound eighty. Erm It is possible to coordinate most crackers in colour and style with favours . You know I'm trying to push more you know. I hope er that you will be able to choose from our wide range of crackers and favours, just what you want to enhance your special day. Otherwise please send me a colour sample and I will come up with some I was doing it very much I you know, the designer's worrying about you. Me a colour sample and I will come up with some more design suggestions. I look forward to hearing from you. So they're getting this whole pack which I hope will pay. Now do you know, could you do me a favour and tell Wendy about that gust because she's just just sending them off. Now there is another way of advertising and with Harrogate not coming off, I must say I'm quite keen on this. This is a firm and they've been going for a number of years. They're advertising, we'll see them in the Yellow Pages. All Yellow Pages, all bridal magazines and as you know there are quite a few. And customers of all the Pro Nuptia and Berkentex shops. The assistants try and make them fill this in. Tick services in this area you want. Now so we would be here under favours and if we're doing this I think I'm going to say him, Yes I'll do it if you mention crackers as well. You know tick both. He's quite keen on that hasn't got another favour person. And you can have it it is is it a two hundred mile radius? Er take a hundred Hundred mile radius he says, but you can argue with that. And then everything in our area erm no They will send hundred mile area, our address to these people and they will tell us that they'll send to these people so we then contact the people as well. And they want the telephone number and he says the best thing is to ring us. And then you can also for the same money which by the way I think is er No I'll let me come to that later. For the same money y they will also tell you of any enquiry in your area, because somebody might not have mentioned favours, but anybody they know and it's a photographer here as well because they're fundamentally photographers, erm they will tell you everybody they know who's going to have er a wedding coming up and then you can write to them. That's in the area. And the shop. I've talked to your cousin, she does it with them. Yes and she said, I can recommend it . Our in Langdale where we go for our timeshare which is an absolutely super place, they do it. And they are happy with it. Er it's a fifty percent uptake but it co and he says, Don't you can ch you can just do it for six months of the Year. But he's told me the main months. And and then you get all these enquiries. Now half year costs including V A T, two hundred and eleven pound fifty. Which I know is all a lot of money and let me just tell you here, what we have spent this year on advertising. Er Brides and Setting up Home, no that's not the whole year, that oh she's just talking what we've spent so far. Brides and Setting up Home is something like five hundred pounds isn't it. We got funded for that one though. We got funding for one year but next year we're left with it. I think it's something isn't it getting on for five hundred for the whole year wasn't it. I think it was something like that. Ah let's ask Wendy. Yellow Pages, we pay two hundred and ninety three, three hundred pounds. Bridal Fairs I go to, we have to pay either a fee for going or put an advert in. Er comes easily well we have here two hundred and forty eight but you know, say two hundred and fifty to three hundred pounds. So it is a lot of money we're talking about I mean we're five hundred, eight hundred,if we do this as well, we're coming out to one thousand between one thousand three hundred to one thousand four hundred pounds for advertising. Yeah well, the point is that this is going to generate sales we didn't have up to date. I think that we can Mm But that's weddings I mean that's you're going for weddings Weddings weddings but I'm keen on weddings. Yes I know but I mean th th ce you're talking about selling The Harrogate Fair we're losing on Christmas. But it doesn't matter does it whether we make Christmas crackers or wedding crackers. We don't mind as long as we make I mean I prefer this because it is to order, we don't make them to stock. But it is a lot of advertising but then we have to generate the business somehow. We can make in our favour or we can easily make six thousand crackers favours and we've made a thousand. How are you going to evaluate ? Well erm Cos that's vital you can Yes well quite simply, I mean we know all the replies from the bridal magazines, I mean we know what we sell at the Christmas fair and what we sell Christmas cracker-wise. Mhm. We can easily evaluate erm what we sell through the magazine because we've got all the enquiries and we know how much uptake there was and But it's There isn't a problem there, because you're gonna find out aren't you . If we have the money which really What doesn't pay you won't do again. You see the problem the problem to generate . You attract so much business that you can't meet. You just say sorry. Success is er Yeah but then you against the advertising say I'm sorry we can't do it. W well No but I think Success problem. Easy thing to cope with yes. It's easier to cope with than failure. Would you dangerous spending far too much on advertising, the product won't bear it. Yes well there I'd agree with you there No the favours do bear it. The favours do bear it well. And and Ian we haven't got much profit margin on our Christmas crackers Mm. but we have a wider profit margin on our wedding crackers. They're differently priced. But I would say to you Well the point is this is spending on hope. It's not on something we do at the moment, it's wanting to get into a different market increasing. We have the cap we have the capability of of producing it. Erm we don't so and the way I feel like saying, well let's first do the bridal magazine, now I've seen how far that goes. Another side of me says, well let's go for it now. We're all set up, we've got it all everything is going, let's go for it. got the money. No but No but you evaluate the return we what I would say is could you possibly give Ian, Zain and me the authority to work that one out. That we sit down with the figures and it might be another thing like we did with the bridal magazines, that we go to somebody and say, look we would like to do this to increase our turnover, will you fund us for half a year? And again like we no we're not paying er personally for our bridal magazine for a year Mm. and get another person to sponsor us for that How many adverts That's the one that's the one danger that I see, that instead of being led by the turnover of the product, we're being led by the funding we can obtain which I think is a is a weakness in the system. It is not really because I was just Noel and I just had a chat this morning. I think you have to appreciate here that what we are doing is mainly therapy. And we must make it pay as much as we can. But and we must really work on it, but we will have our limits, due to the slowness of people, due to the wastage. I mean the product might might work for you and me and it might not it will work the same for them, even if we try our hardest. And but as we were saying earlier on, the work in itself is a therapy and that will need funding and we are a charity. And we will always have to be helped. Yeah but but the point I'm trying to make is that it seems to me that if we're continually spending money on advertising, we're creating another problem elsewhere. In other words, on we can establish that we yes that's true, but we can't necessarily meet it because we are limited on what we can produce. No. No we haven't met that yet . We still have a lot of capacity left. The the That was the point I was making. Yeah but the favour we're only touching on what we can do. We have now one girl there once a week. I mean there's a lot more we can do that is fairly profitable the and the whole object of what we're doing here is to get people occupied you know Yeah I'm not I'm not disputing that, all I'm saying is the question is, whether we're using the monies we're being given to fund it in the right way. No. By spending it on advertising if it's not successful . No no no no. Because we would it would be No. No. No You don't know that do you No we don't know that know that so you give it No but we would This money we spend at the moment er on the bridal magazine was specifically given to test the market by this advertising. Mm. And I would again ask to have money given specifically for this you know, for this purpose. And not for buying a machine or something. You know it's specific. Right. How many times do we advertise in the bridal magazine? Twice. Twice. The trouble is that we didn't have our leaflets ready because when you d er depend on large firms to help you, you know they're always just so busy when you need them, so it was dragged out. How many enquiries did you have? Forty five. And you've got the leaflets out now? The leaflets are out today. how many orders have we had from it? Because the leaflets are the enquiries are going to be answered today because only today did the second leaflet come. It's very difficult as well because when We couldn't answer. you you know the thing, you do have a wedding in your family you sometimes enquire about these things a year before you actually decide to order six months later. Yes. So it's going to be very difficult to To evaluate it. Yeah. I think the You're quite right. I think the thing that we need to establish is that before you embark on any advertising, whatever it is, that you have funding for it. Oh yes. And and then evaluate it from there. But Yes. you cannot embark on an advertising program that isn't being funded by the higher profit made by the product No. Or by funds obtained No. by grants. So therefore that you need what you need is a clear understanding Yeah. that any advertising must be funded independently . Yes. Yes. Yes. Unless with the bridal magazine we've had funding for one year. Erm the crunch will come in in a year we should You see I'm hoping that I mean the favours are important. And I'm hoping that next year we can afford our advertising. I'm hoping that. But as Celia says, the trouble is that so many people, they will only buy it in a year. They ask now and they buy in a year. But on the other hand a But you should have I mean you should be able to I would have though in a year Well I've had some telephone enquiries. One as I say for seventy crackers. Does that seventy crackers. Is she going to follow it up? Yes well she's definitely I mean she's ordered. I'll have to Yes she's definitely getting them. And I had three more telephone enquiries e and they were by telephone, they're in a hurry, you know, can you do it until the fifteenth of May, or can you do it until February something. You always get that last minute person too don't you. But Well I think most of them will be within the two months of the wedding but there'll be enquiries now perhaps for a wedding at Christmas or even next spring. That Wouldn't it make wouldn't it make sense to set aside a figure annually for advertising beyond which you don't go. You agree a figure based on what you We haven't got the money at the moment we have Well that that that's the that this is the real crunch. We haven't got the cash to do that so therefore I think the criteria must be, have we got funding before we embark on advertising. The criteria is I think, will somebody give us the funding to do this? Now I mean I would hate to use the money we've got. We have to get somebody who will pay us this. Well then I should let that be your criteria then erm Yes because at the end of the day But then you you also have to evaluate what what your priorities are because you can only go to so many people for funding can't you. So you know once you've gone to them No once you've gone to them for advertising you can't go to that person for something else. Bits and pieces of equipment. Mm so you have you know decide don't you what you want to spend the money on . Yes. I know. I know. But there isn't any reason why I suppose if you were looking at the the local authority grant it couldn't go into that for advertising. Because without advertising . Mm. Mm. Unless you can do it by reputation Well no but that that takes It's too some time to do It does yes. It's too slow. You you do need to Oh I I think it is I think it's essential that you don't take other funds and spend the money on advertising and then That's right. and then not meet I think that is fully understood, we can't do that . Because all our funding is in a way allocated isn't it. Erm I mean in another year er hopefully it comes out of the profit margin. I mean eventually eventually, sooner or later and it might be later if somebody else will still it has to come out of the profit margin. But it's a chicken and the egg. The business is out there, we are set up to do it, and I've worked it out and and Zain and Ian and I of course we have to go through it, that eventually we will be able to meet it. But it all stands and falls by it. Do you know, I mean for so long now we've done it very much on personal effort. And now we're sort of letting it run how a business would. You know if this was my business, I would have budgeted for this amount of advertising to be ab I mean you can't sit it by getting at home er you can't get it by sitting at home. Erm you need somewhere don't you. Mm. Mm. And I would have budgeted for that in my own business otherwise it wouldn't come. It's a lot of money for what we're doing. At the same time if we were have a little shop. The Christmas Fair is the best way of marketing we do but it's limited. You know we will only do so much and we need to do more . So would you give us the authority It's not worth How much is it to go I'm just thinking of the differe the cost of advertising I don't know it's a hundred and fifty or something. Ah ah against . Yes that's right I think that's a quite valid point . Erm you know if you're going to use your two hundred pounds, for your advertising. Er granted that's weddings and and Christmas isn't it you know it's Christmas crackers Have we ever we've never been to We I have enquired about But it's always been too expensive you said I think. Well it is you see if you want we would need aside No I mean it's a compared with the Harrogate one it is not. I doubt you're going to be there for three days though. It's expensive for what you get. I feel again that it's a lot of our actual customers are the same people coming like we had in Allerton Yeah well I did wonder about that that we're not actually and the thing is, with advertising here, we're selling more than Christmas crackers. I mean we hope to sell our erm favours, we hope to sell other things. I don't know we could look into that. Should we would you like Ian, Zain and I and does anybody else want to be involved. I think decision has to be made after er consideration and and of a few people putting heads together. It's just I'm thinking that you've got your bridal magazine which you're obviously going into and you're going to your bridal sales. Erm you are fairly well saturating that specific advertising I would have thought so myself Er and erm and I just wonder whether you'll get that much more. I mean until you've had a go at the two you can't know. You can't It is so much easier when the business actually comes through the letter box. Well that's right yes. Yes I'm sure. And if it comes through the year and we work to order. Mhm. Much less nerve wracking. I mean this is always dreadful the worry at the end. You know how much have I left and what do I do now. But if but if Emmy gets the funding nothing to worry about. No that's true. But we have to see. But I had had quite er if you want funding erm there's only so many people out there, you better make a success of what you're doing. Er if you want to go back to the same people. So even if other people pay for it, we will have to be pretty convinced that it will be successful. Yes but what you're saying is that if you stay how you are now you're not going to get enough orders. I feel that erm well I think we could cope erm twenty four en enquiries, that's two adverts. Erm I don't know. I think it it needs a bit of discussion to see, what I told Emmy though that that the other people advertising, they're dealing in the wedding dresses, so one enquiry could pay for the whole lot, for her she's dealing in nothing. I know but then that's our game . Well that's just the problem isn't it. That's the problem. It's a very small product . I know I know It's it's It's a lot of money Well this is that Ian was making in the first place isn't it,product actually Can it carry it? Yeah can it carry it. But that's the only product It's tuppence ha'penny stuffy really isn't it. we know we can make to that standard. Well if we're looking in the wrong Emmy, if we're looking at at general er spread-shot advertising,i we're in a market which is much tougher than we we sometimes appreciate. Whereas if we go on the back of something else or somebody else as as you were saying on on the back of a wedding er brochure or something like that, in other words, go down down a specialized avenue rather than a general one, you might achieve something better. But this is But you see, unless you've got first of all as you quite rightly said, unless we've tried it, we don't know. But th that of itself, necessitates evaluating the results of what we're doing. And if in fact we haven't got anything and we've advertised in the Yellow Pages, Evening Press, we've advertised in in quite a number of other er bridal magazines, but have we got information as to the the the benefits derived from each one of those? And if we haven't, we're not really in a strong position to advertise something else We have We can evaluate what we have done. The point is that when I go The best thing is wedding fairs where you are seen and talk to people, but again that is a lot of effort depends very much Costly Sorry? It's costly too. It's costly but we have to do that as well. But But is it is it effective, that's the main thing. . But then there are a lot of wedding fairs and it's in the end you know, brides I mean there can't be any keener than brides, they just go to extremes in their preparation. And they go to all the wedding fairs. So i if you go to three in the spring, the main hotels and three at autumn, then very likely all the brides have seen you. And you can't expand that more. You know there is a limit to how far you get. But all I can say is we people who see us I mean it's not as if everybody has to have favours with their wedding, it's still a fairly new thing. We do have You know we sold a thousand favours this way, it's not bad. And I just have the feeling w the point is w what that is proving is we're good enough, we can compete. Now people don't come here and say, Oh I'll have a look at somebody else, they come here and buy. I think it's Very seldom have we had somebody come in I mean I wonder if we should be spending this much money on another wedding type advertising until we've really had time to evaluate what we're getting from the bridal magazine . Well this is this is the this is the point you can make. This is what I wonder. Should we not first see how this or should we say, look let's go for it now because I mean you know, we've been going now some years, what another year because with weddings, if you don't do it now you've lost The time lag's terrific isn't it. this year again you know. And I think it's got to have one year of really high exposure. Yes. People get to know your name then as well. I think if you're seen at all the wedding fairs no good just going to one wedding fair. And the same perhaps if you're exposed over a Mm. a a in in magazines and at wedding fairs, you get to be known then. When you're actually get an order do you actually Yes. So if do you have that information on your computer, I was think that if you did that consistently over a year. Yes well it's mainly wedding fairs. Then you just ask the computer at the end of the year and you'll see whether your advertising I'm telling I'm telling you, it's wedding fairs. Mainly. There's some Yellow Pages. But then there's a funny thing, Yellow Pages are some people you get a contact through Yellow Pages er which is not actually selling crackers but somebody wanted to know about you for something else you know, like . But wedding fairs as I say, they are at the end of the day, limited. You know you'll only you will only get that much for wedding fairs and we are getting that. But at the end of the day You don't Yes. you don't think the other thing is that people who erm you know there there is everybody's got wedding fairs in their own area, first of all, they're going to go to those anyway and buy from their own local person. Rather than looking in a magazine and buying something that that erm I was thinking that but the I'm surprised I mean yes. What forty fi well we have a bit more, Say we have forty eight replies by now. Well forty eight people know they wrote away for something. And a lot of people are advertising favours so But that doesn't mean a thing. No no And I can't tell you Doesn't mean anything. They might have ticked it, they might write to every Yeah that's quite true . Oh I know Desmond I'm repeating myself, we've just said that. We will not know that in a hurry. I do know though that we've got some definite orders from it already. Mm. You know. But Yeah if you follow the sort of logic you were saying though the main business comes from wedding fairs, just three in the Autumn and three in the Winter. It's the around it would it would pay you so what you were saying do six in the Autumn and six in the Winter and don't do anything else . Pay no no no no no. One costs fifty to sixty pounds. No because it's the same people No it's the same people going round. It's the same people who who who go round, six hotels Yeah u er so you're just You're not gaining. And costs you money There is an optimum figure. And it does cost you. You know you can easily spend three hundred pounds er doing that . And and I'm all in favour as I say getting more through the letter box, it's easier for us and it But I I think I mean I'm quite happy to leave this now and just carry on with the bridal But we have to make this pay itself Yes but I I mean at the end of the year, we need to have sold a Because these people, they need to come for funding purposes. I can't I can't lay off. Because that's the whole object, they have to come. They're churning out crackers and they're churning them out and they have to be sold. And at the end of the year, today in a year, we will sit here and we have to have sold it. And we have to get into that market, we can't afford too much to to hang back. And if I'm saying I really want to do less for the cracker bar now, because that was hard pushed. Erm then It is though let me just say quickly It is a recognized fact for weddings that you do sell through the magazines. The brides as I say, nothing is too much trouble for them. They read them and yes they send away to several and then you have to score, you have to have something better than somebody else. And I think we can compete. But shall we can go on forever, shall we leave it for Zain, Ian and I I think that's the best thing. to make that decision. And we might very well decide against it, but I think one day I would quite like to Yeah but there's a Yes but at the same time, this way I agree with you, I I personally would do it if you have the funding and you're going to evaluate it because you cannot lose. But you've got to be strict with yourself. And really make some decisions, is it worth . And you've got to know the source of your funds to do it. Right so that's that on marketing and . And then the Christmas Fair accounts, if you want to take one. Here you go, and they've been slightly redone by Ian be for the accountants you know. And I think we still haven't taken the telephone yes we have done now.. Well yeah, I haven't really kept that yet but No. Christmas Fair accounts. There are one or two Well there are two items in there which haven't really been resolved at this point and that's the i the erm ins er where am I. It's the breakages which is one, the twenty one twenty one pounds there. And the telephone calls, the forty five ninety two, they haven't effectively been paid yet, but they are included in the result presumably this hasn't er been finally settled as regards the cash but this is the result. But the breakages have been paid for haven't they, we have . Have we? That went today. Yeah it wasn't included Well in fact it showed it as an outstanding amount. Mm yeah. This is why and one of the the real problems with this is it's not that I'm criticising, it's just that if in fact you've got somebody who was appointed as a treasurer, you can in fact get more information out of it, instead of having to guess what we got from where and how it came in. At the moment I've had to er shall we say adjust certain figures, because in fact er I haven't got the details. But this is the result and I I think it's very creditable. What we are not sure is that at the end of the day it doesn't matter all that much what exactly was the raffle and what exactly was the entrance fee because we didn't keep a note of that. Erm I have a feeling the entrance fee was It doesn't change the bottom line. It doesn't change it it doesn't matter so much, the only thing is it'll be interest how many people came. Yeah well that'll have to be adjusted Erm let's put it that way. Yes. Well it would have to be very strictly adhered to then next year. Yes. Somehow. I mean the thing happened, the float indeed was just split. Well Ian is quite irked it happened because people Zain and Desmond got the job on the day and it wasn't quite clearly said, my fault, not quite clearly said exactly, count the money religiously and Yes she was m waylaid It comes with a letter which I can't find you know, telling them about us. Ah. These are our figures now and then Zain can take over. Erm We're on number six now aren't we? This you should have had you should have had this with the manager's report. They're late. Okay, this is part of the manager's report. Oh you've got one. Oh She does does she . the one that you were talking about No this is was part of the manager's report. You've got one are you looking at the Christmas fair? No no this is late We've had that now. this is part these are the figures you'd normally have with your Yes. with your erm. Oh I've I've got two. he's got mine then. I've got I've lost everything now. I've lost my Are we still at the erm trading accounts for the Christmas Fair or have we move on? We have to come back to that in a minute okay. Because er we had not my accounts, the trading accounts. Okay. Right well the next one Well seven and eight actually are one and the same. What is that I've lost my It's to do with self employment Yeah, just an update and the sewing. Should I quickly do that? Yeah. Erm well as you know, Noel came and said there's spare money, have you got an idea. And I said, yes, this self employment. Now Zain has given me great help and everybody sort of helped er you know I've discussed it with everybody and we've almost finished erm a really good proposal I think. I think it's really really well written and and I'm very happy about it because I've got it out of my system because when I first started that that was my aim . So as soon as it's ready we will sent you a copy and please read it. I will send you a copy before it actually goes off and read it and ring me aft if if there's anything you don't understand or you don't agree with okay? Is everyone fully aware of what the self employment Well I explained it last time didn't I. And the sewing course I mentioned earlier, we are getting the money and we've discussed that already and it's all set out. Erm Yeah . You don't want to say anything more on the self employment? No but I just know that I've forgotten something to say. questionnaire to go with that Oh very good questionnaire Zain did and we've almost done it. We'll send you a sample of all that. Very very well done I think it all Erm there was one other thing I thought I would ask . It will hopefully come back to me. Right okay . Fine. Well the next one is er ignore number eight because it's . Training for for Wendy. Yes. Now Wendy is struggling hard with the book-keeping. And with the er stock control. It's very hard work for her er you know she has to sort of get a get all the systems She has to you know it's it's very hard work to get the systems going. Now she is g has put herself down no no Zain. She has put she's put herself down for one day at the end of her accounts to learn about accountancy and as Ian pointed out, it's it's it's not a lot. Er to learn accountancy but it was a bit a bit m a bit stronger than that but carry on But she's a very intelligent girl and she's got a head start because Ian has taught and she's self taught her through TAS. Erm and this man said, you know what we are very aware of is trial balance sheets you have, she needs to know the exact format. And I think she can learn a lot there and I mean s you know, she is she is erm this is a this is a new item, how did this come about? Are you saying that the package The pack the TAS package has arrived Yeah. But it's mainly to erm present it to this committee, the trial balance sheet, She doesn't quite know how to do that and altogether she feels she just wants she says, how she's doing it now, at least she wants to check out with somebody, is she doing it how they would do it. So she's going for a day there. And I mean this is what self employed people do, you know they go and they get taught there and then that's it and then they the rest they have to teach themselves. So I'm very pleased you know I suggested it to Wendy and Wendy agreed that What what is that costing? It's costing nothing, the day. It's just the day it takes you know. Right. That's where Right fine. And the other thing is, I am really asking you to give Wendy two more hours a week for the next three months and then review it. Because once she has got the disciplines in place, she it should l take less time, but at the moment she is really overburdened. She does work seventeen to nineteen hours here a week and she takes her work home. Mm. And she's paid for eleven hours. And she's working very hard I mean,wh yesterday she was here at six o'clock, so I was long home and Wendy rang from here and she was still here. So please will you consider for three months out of our funds which has to be the to pay her that amount of money or else we cannot cope. Because I can't take it off her, I don't know how to do it. Nobody is there who can She has to do it. But she also has to learn it. And it's asking too much at the moment. I was gonna ask is you know that he ha she has to do all these long hours. Er these hours th just developed over time or is just the work that's go The work. increased. Oh yeah. Are we asking her to do things that we weren't Oh yes. Oh yes. I mean we've tried to write down everything she does but it's so varied I mean, telephone calls and she has to do telephone calls. At the moment she has typed this proposal for me. You might think well that's not take long. But I mean we've been going over and over that proposal. You know it's not just once typed. You know we've corrected it and gone on about it and discussed it. We have things like appraisals to do, she has e I mean I can't tell you, all I can is I'm working at the side of her, she works all the time, she's very fast, she's very intelligent. She can't cope with the time she she has . But we want to review it after a few months because as I say, once she's got herself organized, it might be alright. Also if we do this self employment, I'll ask for more admin time. So you're saying after three months the work will get Easier hopefully. We will have to see. See at the moment she has to learn about TAS you know. She had to learn about accountancy, Mm. now she has to learn about stock control. Erm but once she's got it in place what do you think Ian? I mean hopefully then it will take up less time. Well Yes I suppose that the thing is if she's having to work extra hours, she ought to be paid for them. Mm. We can't expect her I mean she's very good hearted It's as simple as that I mean we can't expect her to do it. Mm. And I think she'll still do lots of time on top. But er I think we can't nobody else can do it and it has to be done. Is is there room for payment from the erm money that we're getting from No not really Er yes already she's already got two hours she does she does she cos she does work We've already got to pay her two hours. The the money is not specific to any No exactly It's overall you know so if we choose to direct some money for Yes but then we are short in the admin course. Yeah. Or or the rest I mean in general You know er it has to come really out of the Christmas Fair or Sir 's donations, something unallocated. We have the money. And then we have to review it again and er Well I think as Ian says, there's no real choice is there. No there isn't a choice no. Well are we agreed then? Okay. Anything else on That's it on the That's it. So you're saying after three months you want to review it. Review it after three months and see how we are coping then. But that'll take up some . She's now eleven, that will be thirteen thirteen paid hours. Also we are hoping to get people from the admin course to help with the . But unless she's got it in place, you can't do it. They cannot work on their own. No. And they can only work once it's properly set out. Yeah. It's not helped that They couldn't come and run the office on their own if somebody else wasn't here, not yet . So really the admin course doesn't really make is not going to reduce any hours anyway? It could do depending how much how much they could be delegated. But I don't think they could you couldn't say come here unlock your door you know. Right there'll be some work for you to do. like a junior typist Yes. they'd need erm But ano but what I think would happen when we get maybe Mike or Chris or somebody helping, it's not that they're taking work off Wendy, but that we will do more physical checks, do you know what I mean, with the stock control. Wendy will do the computer bit and they'll do the counting bit. That kind of thing. And erm somebody like Mike of Chris is perfectly capable of get their bits of paper to check to tick off things like that but Wendy will have to check it and put it you know they could do some of the legwork but not yet. No. It has to be ready for that okay? Yeah I think any anything that's on the computer needs to have the input prepared beforehand. Now some of the inputs been prepared production of crackers, the production of sewing material things like that. Incoming material for stock, movements of stock, they can all be done by people on the admin course providing you can set a form up and say, go and do this. And then Wendy's just go to put it in the machine and the list of it. Mm. Mhm. Okay. Right, you've already covered the sewing Ian treasurer's report. Well I think there is the the only report that I've got is the fact that the financial summary er you've seen at the same time as I have. You see this is what we haven't got at the moment. Erm we need erm this er trial balance sheet, I recommend every second committee making which makes it every three months. That's normal and that's what Wendy has to learn to do or else it's you know it's it's difficult for somebody else to if Ian did it he would have to get all the figures first. So that's what Wendy has , she's going quite soon. I think the the truth of the matter is that what the committee needs is this information that we've got in front of us. Mm. It's a question of the format of it. Yes. In other words we need to know what we've received, what we've spent and where it belongs i within the organization. Right and that's what she doesn't know at the moment. And we also need a you know, the stocks that we're holding, at the end of every month. Because in fact if we're holding far too much stock we ought to do something about reducing it because it's all Yes. tying up cash. And it's the cash flow I would recommend every three months. That we have a trial balance sheet every three months. But you'll naturally have more stock won't you at the beginning of the year. We have times though before er before our Christmas Fair we have maximum stock. It builds up to that. Now we are low on stock. And it builds up Now we're low on stock. Mm. But you know the the the most we have is before Christmas. Can I just quickly erm I know what you mean I know what you mean . sometimes it'll look worse than it is. Yes and the committee has to learn to adjust themselves to that to that to not worry Well there's an explanation for it. Yes. Yeah. But we ought to be aware of what values we're holding in in various Yes. Because it will be er it will be cut down is the word into finished products and raw stock. So if I before Christmas you should have a lot of finished products which won't worry you. Mm. Mm. Because it's just a matter of selling them. Can I just go back on this I mean you say this is how we want it, does this No. actually tell me what the cash flow is ? No No that's just what we're saying. This is some information which is useful for you but we need a trial balance sheet every three months which Wendy at the moment Well why why do we have wait three months? Yes it should be it should be available every time we meet . Because that is The thing is that what we need and what's missing from this is in fact the balance that was available at the time we started this period. In other words, over the last six weeks. I know. Er and that's what missing and in fact we've now got a balance figure at the end there but er I'm not too sure what it means. No. But if in fact we knew where we were starting from, we could see the movement from the last period, the period and we've got an explanation of what that means Yes I know. We we are very aware of that. That's what we're aiming at and that's what hopefully she will come up with. This is very quickly which I didn't have before, my way of doing the trading account and Ian was going to sympathize because he said there's no need to put exactly but for us it's quite interesting to see that. If you want a quick look at that. That's the Christmas Fair only and next time I will give you the the rest of all the selling parties. I've always done that. These little Smarties, the go round don't they the Yes we did go round. Did you work these back from the stocks in? How did you work them out? Well I counted ev this is only the Christmas Fair okay. Yeah. I counted er well Tom counted everything going out. But I also counted the crackers going out. Er because that was easy, there was always full boxes. And er then everything after the Fair went to my home and I counted every , everything. I wrote it down but I c I did only do that for the Christmas Fair. Erm the rest is going to be more difficult. But so I spent quite some time over that. And it was quite interesting to see. Erm Tom has a different er starting number of crackers but that is because I filled some more up. But I have a note of that. So what was the overall income on the er Two thousand sixty eight No there was also income from the doors . Oh well yes you were away. Oh well you will have a little when you're dealing with little items you do get a difference. No but I mean things broke. And you somebody said you thought you saw somebody steal something. Oh yes. I couldn't believe it but Adult or child? Pardon? Adult or child. Pardon? Mm. Really, something of ours? Mm yes oh in fact the favours Because that was super light and they took them. Er and was it said she saw somebody take a cake. A kilt? A cake. Gosh, wee geriatrics, it can't get any worse now. Right I'm in a hurry, can we get on. It's I would like to spend some money, can I mention that now then? I'm trying to I'm trying to tie this this erm Actually that's something you're gonna have to watch isn't it? Mm? Theft You wouldn't think it'd pay to come in that they would steal Oh. I mean the pound in can't be worth the Stealing's unbelievable. Mm it just eases Be a shopkeeper and then you find out. Yes. Yes. Can I just on on this Christmas Fair, I know some of the sort of accounting of money was erm well not exactly brilliant. I Are you likely through next this coming year set up No Ian has just mentioned that. We have one person in charge of ever with you and Desmond may I say hassle about. Raffle and door. And it is not a serious mistake because all we are not sure about is what was raffle, what was door. That's the only thing. Er which at the end of the day, cause all the money was bagged. Erm It wasn't as though any went missing. and it's either in the raffle money or in the door money . The two together are in correct amount. It's doesn't matter but Ian has suggested that next time we appoint a treasurer who has the account In actual fact, there was no mistake made, I was just purely asked to bag the money. Well I think that's what we were doing. And we did it and we did it jointly for for security, that we agreed the figure No mistake was made. Because I was never asked to. I mean I was asked to keep my sewing money, completely separate. I provided my own float, I had nothing to do with any of the money. No. Right. And then but then at the end er you know I think you said, Oh but Emmy says it all has to put together. Yes. But fortunately I did write down Yes. what mine Because I I mean I because she had asked me originally to keep it but I keep mine all separate until you asked me for it . Yes. No no no no It was all bagged together. She was very concerned then. Are you trying to tell me it was somebody's fault ? No it was nobody's fault. I can believe that. It was it was that everybody needed the money, then we and it all went in one pot. Ian is correct it was the chairman's fault so next nest year he should have known or whoever organized the fair should have known so really it doesn't work unless you make one person responsible for that job . But you I think I think w er well it's no good saying it now but I don't think you can ask one person under the heat of all that to count up separate No no no no no. No no no no no Nobody's saying that. I think it could be the individual person . No no no no no. No. No. No no no no no no no no No no no what what Can I can I just say well I'm What what the treasurer of an event like this needs to do is to note down the source of the cash he receives, to note where it's coming from different products, how much is being received from that Yes but that's I think that Desmond's quite right, what should have happened was just as Emmy said to me originally, you keep your sewing money separate. Yeah. The person doing the raffle should have their money separate, Yes fine. the person doing the door. The that's how it should happen and and one person is simply in charge of taking that and making a note of their amount. they say is the door, needs to receive all those things. But you wouldn't have time to count each individual pot Well the raffle people certainly wouldn't. with the person. No but But the person is responsible for their The person keeps. I was responsible for mine. I counted mine completely. I had Pat had the same as the trading people, we knew what we took. Yes. So we could give it all to you and you could bank it. Yes but it's rather um And then the person doing the raffle the person in the door should have been the same. But it's rather unfair on the person if he's given all this money from five different sources and one person makes a mistake of ten pounds which is easy to do. You add it up and there's ten pounds missing. And everybody says, Well I gave you a hundred, I gave him five, you Can I please because I have to be off in a few minutes. Well I am I am I am quite sure that the person who's actually if you appointed them treasurer has got the authority to be able to say, there was ten pounds difference, I'm knocking it off the door and that's it . we're going around in circles All we we've agreed that we're going to need someone to control it at the next fair . Yes I think that's fair enough. Okay. You'll definitely need somebody to appoint. Right erm. Ian Ian Ian's going to be best at it. I have to be off so soon, come on what now. Erm sorry sorry to come back again to to this financial summary. So are we saying after all these balances are done, that statement at the very end end of December therefore. Therefore the cash flow situation isn't four thousand in trading committee, trading account of seven thousand seven hundred in the committee account at this moment. Well no we're not saying any such thing, we're saying that this format is not very helpful and that Wendy is learning, is going to learn format that is better. And who is deciding on the format? There is a set formula to do it and she has to learn it. She don't know how to do it. And she has to learn how to do it. Basically all all we is that the the movement from the various accounts should be known. In other words you've got the trading account which is how 's trading, the committee account, the petty cash and the wages box are part and parcel of the trading but they're kept as separate entities within the organization. Yeah. Now then all we're doing, what we should have done is that we should have had an opening balance at the beginni or the end of December when the di information was first struck. And then any movement since then is identified either as expenditure or as income. Right. And the final balance represents the position at the end of the or should do. That's basically what we're aiming for. Now this is the first time I've seen these and I can't say whether they're right, wrong bad of indifferent, All I can say is that this was the intention. So that the committee are aware of the the movement of cash from one period to the next. So you haven't had sight of this before today? No it's only just come. Okay. Oh well okay, the other we've got to do is be in the situation where you've had a look at it before we all see it . Yeah well why that happened,Oh I think it was just pressure of work you know, she had so much else to do. And it needed to be entered before she knew. Okay but all I was just saying is that it would be helpful that before we that Ian has seen through these Look every time we've done it that's what we also do it goes out on the manager's report w with the minutes or with the agenda. This was the first time and it was pressure of work that we haven't done it for you to see it earlier, this is not normal so just forgive this one time and we needn't spend any more thought on it because next time it it going to be different and it always has been different. Okay. But this is the format Okay. Yes I know. Yes. Right. Erm. Last item, we wanted What is it? You wanted to erm propose some purchase Yes but should first Celia report on the admin. Well erm And let me just say one thing, before Celia talks about the admin course and that is Not a lot to say really Let me but let me just say one thing. I really want you to know what a fantastic job Celia's done. That admin course is fantastic, a re er you know I was in this r building yesterday, and I can tell you, the attendance is good I mean they have to have a real reason before they don't come. Their faces change, they're gaining so much, they're contributing. The way they react. We've got one chap who's autistic can you imagine, and he takes part. We have another chap who's just joined who is so shy, I mean Desmond knows him, and he's contributing and sitting there and typing. I as a result of that exam, unless you know the scene you don't know what they have achieved. Er er and that they sit two hours doing e and exam you know for somebody who can watch at all. Because their concentration is so bad. It's been wonderful and it is a lot of we have got two super teachers, that they are enthused by Celia. And Celia comes and she's cheerful and she does the admin with them, she organizes it and I just personally I'm just so grateful the best thing which has happened to me. And I I really want officially to thank Celia for what she's done. That's nice of you. It it's a group effort as most things are here and er Pat will realize for all the volunteers that come in. Can I just say Margaret started and she's going to be brilliant. She fits in so well. Mm. Erm she's doing numeracy power with them at the moment before she gets on to the because I believe she's got to sort out some programs for as yet. And sort out the computers but the thing is she may be able to get some more up to date computers. Well strange enough rang me up Oh really? last week or the week before, who works at Rowntrees got this erm phone call. We actually haven't got any erm machines now because all the ones I didn't know they were coming from She never said she sai just said I'm just holding out for some Oh well her husband works in the Yeah yeah. ring me up and asking I understand you Anyway to cut a long story short, he was basically saying well do you know of any computers? And I said, well we've already asked before and the ones that we got were the ones that were thrown out. Any other ones, I've already put in a request through Peter ,and as and when they become available, they will be given out. Mm. Erm but there aren't any specific ones that I'm aware anyway that er And those were the ones that Margaret was after. Oh well that's now we know. Er well she can work on these but she just thought if we could get some more up to date ones. Mm. Erm sh because apparently if they do go in an office, they'll find these are far slower than anything else they would ever work on, Yes. in any other office now. The thing is they are slow, you've you've got to remember to wait and you you know you Yeah I mean, they're upgrading all of the machines at work but what they're doing is instead of throwing them out, those who don't use P Cs that often are being given the slower machines and those that as part of their job function, they need something much faster have been given the the newer machines. So unfortunately there isn't a a scrapheap of redundant P Cs Well I mean in a way it would be nice to have one more new one Which possibly if funding here'll run to it. Because when Margaret gets going we'll have the good on in the office which super but it would be rather nice to have another one. Which er can I possibly carry on from there and if you we have to talk about . Now as far as they know their money is coming. Er we have sent them you know a as you've said, just sent the letter back. We haven't heard since then. Er Zain has tried to ring, I have tried to ring, we have had no you know, we never got the person in. I think it'll all go ahead and we'll get the money but meanwhile before we knew about , we did do a lot of fund raising and we got some money in er I suppose something like a thousand pounds. And we've written back that we might get money from but can we use it for I E buying chairs and other things or for the general welfare. And they've said yes we can keep the money. And I would like to buy two chairs for the favour room, you know chairs to sit on cos at the moment we have to always go and get them from the er cracker room. And so you know we just need to chairs up there. The other thing is that the cars in the yard have been bre broken into. And that you know, is worrying me. I mean our building wasn't touched but I I somehow always thought they wouldn't come there because they were so trapped, but they did and they spent quite a lot of time trying to get those cars going. When when when did this happen? Over the weekend. This weekend Really. Yes. Yes. And it worried me to that extent that I almost went without your okay and rang up Terry and said, please fix those blinds, because we have got blinds which cost almost two hundred pounds or something and or a hundred and nineteen pounds,and it seems they can't fix them . It seems I keep running them under Tom's nose Well what are they for then are they They are these plastic blinds and they need cuttin cutting at the side . They're just venetian And and also I mean I don't want a zigzag and I really recommend we get somebody for Well I don't want to Tom to cut the sides like that with scissors you know, it has to be neat. And I'm recommending that we get er Terry to fix them. Also we do need a shelf you know in the office, Wendy has a shelf above her at the side, above and we really need another shelf underneath to store things. Erm and I was thinking or Desmond was thinking of a bell in your Internal bell just to frighten them off. Because otherwise they could ba Well well once they get in here Yes yes well you mean not an actual alarm . They're home and dry. They'd just smash the whole place up. Yeah. But a bell where you're talking about an alarm. Oh no not an alarm it's it's be too expensive, no just an internal bell to frighten the hell out of them. And I think Terry would It wouldn't it wouldn't interfere with the neighbours. So what do you mean by a bell,trying to visualize what you mean Yes. Well like I mean we all know what a bell is, a bell which is set off by by a human body coming in . By the lock if possible. Oh oh it's like on the front door. Every time somebody walked in . or the best thing is they Yes. What happens if she does it on a weekend, will we just have a key? Well hopefully with the key because otherwise Yes. the people can't get themselves in. Exactly I would think The front door key. If you open the front door The front door key, close it and then and then resets it. And I take it it would have to be infrared. You'd have to have a sensor going down the corridor and one in the back because they'd come in the back, they wouldn't come through the Yes that's right I just can't think how you'd Erm we have an idea about that. Erm we have a burglar alarm. Well it's fine as long as you actually tell people. Everybody who had a key I mean if there was a number to or something to do they have to know. Yes but but er can you just There's nothing to key in switch that off a minute. Can you just switch the machine off. Erm er if it's in the hall er we've got it in our hall and you just plug in and set it on and then if anybody opens a window, the alarm bell goes off. It just and it just switches off you know, It's a bit too sophisticated for here. Every window to be wired up. Oh no you don't wire anything up. It's just plugged in. I thought you I thought you said if you opened the window. Yes but it isn't from that. Erm it's just a change in erm atmosphere in the house. But not the front door No well that's infra red really. What about the door. Er well it does it's not connected to anything. All it is it's plugged in in in the hall and it is just a box a little box about this big and we just er it's just worked on the different just a movement of air, really that's all it is. Therefore once you everything settles and you switch it on at night or in the day, anytime, as soon as somebody opens the door, the bell will go off. It's not wired to anything, that's why we Well how do you stop I mean how do you put it off though when you somebody Well you just switch it it's a switch on the top. But you see it doesn't help us because anybody getting in who knows about the box Will just switch it off. Gets in and switches it off. It has to be connected with the front door key. That you need the front door key. Because goes for the key Ah but wait a se oh because they wouldn't have the key What about a pad under the front under both mats at the Yeah but again people who aren't here Too many people would know that it Mm. But again we can go on forever. Can I would you give me permission to . But do make it simple Simple Because you could soon run into five or six hundred quid . I know I know. And you mustn't have outside bells, mustn't have outside bells here because you'd you'd get so much opposition from those people Because they go off at everything. Yeah it wants to be just enough inside here that it frightens them . I I agree. And I say let's get Terry Wilson to do it because you know he's on the No i well it's Oh he has an electrician? Yeah. Yeah. Oh well he most probably And it's three little jobs and let him do it. get costings Do you a do you know exactly what it's going to cost you? You'll just have to get them to give you a quote. But I am so worried now that I really would say, okay I'll discuss it with Zain but let's not wait until the committee meeting, next committee meeting, let's do it as soon as we can. And and also I think now now that that's happened, I don't think it'll be long before there'll be another. No. Is everything insured? Everything's insured but just thing the mess they could make . it's the vandalism. You know. the computers They are insured They're all co I don't think the cheap ones are? Our good one is. I though we'd specified that Maybe we have yes. But we need to check Well I mean you have to get them it's it's the little money you would get for those you'd have a job finding I mean everything would be in a mess. I mean you want to avoid Don't forget Emmy, do have it at the back. It's the office and and it's those two rear Oh I know I know rooms . Well I will ask you when the time comes. Now I'm just thinking, so we got a thousand pounds here, I would like to spend this money. But what is worrying me is is talking about a specific period, at the moment I hope you realize that the committee is paying all the admin costs in the hope that we are getting the money from . I mean we we had a definite offer and it's all paid much later, that the money is coming and then the committee will get the money back. Er And nothing should happen but we haven't heard, but also after that date we are high and dry again so I would quite like to keep as much in the kitty from the money we've raised, for the admin course you know, the future of the admin course, as possible. At the same time, this needs spending. Where has this thousand pounds come from? We have applied to General Accident, to erm oh oh oh a few people Yeah. I don't know the exact figure, a thousand pounds is r it's round about that. And it wasn't earmarked for any specific items? It was earmarked for the admin course, we asked will you fund a student for the admin course. And then we wrote back to them and said we are very likely getting funding from , in which case can we use your money for other purposes er Well one reason specifically said chairs. Erm ta we need tables more than chairs. In there they can't get their legs under those tables. Oh that is so true. The the tables are very erm old fashioned wooden ones and sort of you know how you get your legs under sort of well like a bottom lip. And that really it's all the chairs are good office chairs in there, the tables are bad. Right. Er can you Well hopefully in the minutes I need to can somebody make a note, we have to fund raise for that. Erm we need tables, I mean chaps like like Mike and Roger with their big legs they just can't under them . They just can't get their knees in. And we have to do that, we must get tables. Rowntrees must have hundreds of tables. the sort of metal tables that have just got the four legs I would try there. to get the proper computer tables sorted out. Except if you got computer tables, it just seats one computer on it, don't forget we have we we're really better with bench tables like that, then we can put either typewriters anyhow we can go into that. These are these are tables we got from somewhere Oh I wouldn't mind loaning out . No no no. we needs to look I mean No. just two like that, metal tables, but metal with nothing underneath. But Celia, let us look at at tables because I saw some which can take typewriters and computers. And there was a track, electric track and all that. I think er it's it's Desmond, why I say no to that, the we Tom and I have measured it out and Celia. It's very tight to get in what we need to get in and we have to buy just the right tables. So I think for the time being, if you allow us, we will find out which tables we want and then we will fund raise for them and get the money for them, okay. We we we also Sally and I were talking about this last week, we said often you know you get you can get bankrupt stock Oh you do Now we need an optimistic accountant, can somebody look out for an optimistic accountant There isn't such a thing. No no but Celia, Ruby Ruby told me her husband has to do with bankrupt office stock Mm. remind me okay. There's some possibility there. No So wh are you saying that all this stuff you want for the admin course, you're gonna raise money separately or do you want to Well we're just I'm just we might have to ask for some money for it. No the money I want to spend, I've partly already written back and said, can I use this money as we don't need it can I buy chairs, I was specific. Cos that was a big amount, and they said yes. And others, there's money here which we got for the admin course which which can spend. All the Christmas Fair money. But I think this is the big thing we want to fund raise for. And we would very likely get it. I know who's going to give it us. we'll get it. We we need we need Yeah. The other thing is, you know Noel came, they had some money, what do you want, actually I could ask them because he also said things. We must make a list but A long one. The point is that this will happen, people will come to us occasionally and say, do you need money for what specific and I think, as a committee we must have a future, a list for the future of things we might want and also of ideas we have. Like now luckily I had these two ideas running in my head anyhow. Do you know, but you have to be so quick and you have to be precise and you must know that that's what you want. So I think we should learn to plan to have a plan a future plan. Sort of things we can tick off as we need them. But didn't we do this So that when comes up we've always got an answer. Well no I mean, two years ago when we did this, we actually had a list of things that you identified Yes. you wanted. I think perhaps we need to do that as part of the planning for each year's budget. I mean I I know in that budget thing that we put together towards the end of last year, we didn't really look at it Yeah well we did actually. Both those ideas now said were in our future targets. No no no I'm talking about I'm talking about bits and pieces for the place, we did Yeah bits and pieces. Yeah. Yeah. set aside an amount of money or identified that we would need to spend an amount of money and perhaps we need to do that sooner. Yeah we have to we shall do that quite soon I think. And if I may just, that's the last thing I need to say is the Christmas Fair dates somehow were muddled up and somebody put the wrong dates to the day, it's Wednesday the sixteenth and Thursday the seventeenth. Okay Sixteenth and seventeenth. Can you just give me the name of the person who has the Oh . ? Mr . Where is The . Opposite ,. I'm leaving all my mess here because I'm coming back after my meeting. Is there anything else erm you know Zain which we should do or pass on? Erm no. Well we're not having much joy with these people from I mean I've rung them about four times in the last er week. The lady who I was trying to get hold of who's actually got the contract that er we want amended, for some reason I . I did try, I was gonna try before I came here but I was . So I'll try again but I think you're gonna have to telephone Erm not telephone, write to Mr directly. We're not you know we're not getting anywhere. It's not moving very quickly is it. No. that's a long time since they said we could have it. Oh well it was er this committee meeting, er when you were away. Before Christmas. No no er the money had been sanctioned long long time November, it was October . Ah ah it was but it was sanctioned but we had to sign a contract with them. Yeah okay. And then the solicitor asked us to advised us to have certain things amended and Mr had no problem when I told him over the telephone, he just said send it back and we'll just amend it. Well it sounded so simple when he said it over the telephone about two months ago. But And somebody has been er is dealing with it. Well they have a contracts department that deals with all these these are funding issues. And I presume it's just sitting on someone's desk which is still being processed. It'll be a nice lump sum when we get it won't it. Yeah but as I say, don't forget we're spending it already. Erm Right is that is that all? Is that all Right, I've put that here because I'm coming back you see. When are we meeting again? Oh yeah, good question. Another six weeks. When is that? of March. Oh sh And thank you so much everybody and mainly for putting up with me. Cos you're going away in March aren't you? To Germany ? I just hope Virginia doesn't get Ah yes, I'm going to Germany. You could have one committee meeting without me then. We'd have to have another one tonight. . Yes I leave on the eleventh of March so can we have it on the eight of March? Is that okay. because I've got now Wednesdays That's a Tuesday the eighth isn't it. Oh no Wednesday the ninth, sorry I got wrong. Well yes you can I I will Zain can't do it on a Wednesday any more. No there will be Wednesdays now that I won't be able to come at all. Yeah. You can't come on a Wednesday. Which day can you come? No it's it works every two weeks, I have to check it doesn't fall into that otherwise we have it a week. Yeah. Well thank you so much. Thank you. I know it's a dreadful uphill struggle with us but I it ca it just is that hard. Mm. You know. It's probably going to get harder. I'm telling you we work hard, I know we can get better organized, but we do work very hard and we have to work on so many fronts. Well you're running a full blown business with erm Not only is and and a rehabilitation centre. You know and it's erm And the fund raising, all the fund raising. And a college so no wonder it's hard. Yes. It's very very hard. Switch this off shall I. It's still going round. Well I have to dash Er I've got two I've just just been two schoolkids who are not doing very well and they the end of term they've you know the teacher's said they're sort of very far behind and they need to do some work during the holidays. Now normally over each break there's not that much there's I've had a few students who say they want lessons through the holiday cut normally not that much but this Mm. this holiday everyone's saying, Ooh yeah I need some more lessons you know. I'm going away on Monday so I haven't allowed for all this so I'm trying to Yeah. rearrange everything to fit them it. Let's have a look at This week. then. Yeah this is what wanna I I just got onto like the first lesson of it. Okay. Erm notes you see they were just er exercise that we done out of the book. Right. Erm that was week eight we started on that yeah. You're okay on trig aren't you? N n no this is one No? no this is erm where bearings and that come into it Mm. I sort of was a bit lost on me trig so that's really what I want to get to go through a bit of trig . Right okay so are you happy with sine cos tan? You know which one's which and how to sort them out. I could do with it going over. Okay. These they'll be on the front of the paper. Erm you'll have sine you'll probably have a triangle with A B C marked on it. Mm. And it's say sine is A over B or something. The best thing to do with that are you you're more used to erm You're more used to opposite over adjacent and things like that aren't you. Or Yeah well we what I normally think you see is when we've got ninety degrees there Yeah. that's the opposite. The hypotenuse is the long one. Right. And that's the adjacent. Okay so Is that in every case? Easy way to sort them out this with with trig or with Pythagoras you're only working with a right angles triangle. So find the right angle which is usually pretty obvious and the side opposite that the longest side is the hypotenuse which is a long word. Yeah. So it's the long side. Okay? So the longest side is So the hypotenuse. The longest side the biggest side is always opposite the biggest angle. Mhm. That's the hypotenuse. And then depends on which angle we're working with. Well if we're working with this one down here okay let's say that's forty degrees or something. The next easiest one to sort out after the hypotenuse is the one that's opposite. Mhm. So that's opposite the angle that we're working with. And the one that's left is The adjacent. must be the adjacent okay. So that'll work for every triangle. Yeah. If you'd been working with this angle instead, we didn't know that and we're trying to work with this one or we say we're interested in this angle so that will be the opposite and this would be the adjacent. Mhm. And that's where the confusion comes in that it it varies depending on which angle. So just go over that again So first of all go for your right angle. Mhm. And the hypotenuse that's the biggest Yeah. that's always going to Right. be true. The next thing to do is which angle am I working with? So this one you're working with that thirty five degrees. Mhm. This is the angle we're interested in Yeah. so if we're going to work out sine tan or cos of this angle that's its opposite Yeah. and the one left is the adjacent. Right. Same with all of these. Mhm. Now if we were looking at these the other way up right if somebody gave you the triangle Yeah. and they said I want to work out this angle. Mhm. Well there's you right angle that's still the hypotenuse which one would be the opposite now if we're dealing with with this angle? Er for dealing with that a that'd be the opposite yeah That's it that's opposite and the one left is Adjacent. Okay same Yeah. if we were working with that. So the opposite is the one opposite the angle. Right. Right. Just write that down for us. So it's the one opposite the angle. first of all go for the right angle sort out the hypotenuse okay. And then work out which angle Yeah. you're going to deal with. Right. Which angle has the sine cos or tan right and then that's two if you like two A work out the angle and then two B work out which is the opposite. Mhm. The opposite is always opposite the Opposite the angle. angle yeah. Okay. Work out the opposite and then three the adjacent sorts itself out then. Yeah. The adjacent is the one left over. Mhm. That'll work for that'll work every time. Right. So you won't you know you know you won't be, Mm. Ah now which one am I supposed to be using here? Yeah. Okay. Okay. So front of your sheet you will have things like sine is A over B or things like that just write on the front of your sheet and convert it so that you've got sine is equal to what do you know what sine is? Sine erm no I should really brush up on it. I mean I I know it's so c mixed up. It doesn't matter cos it'll be there. so c so something Silly old cow or something like that some people remember it. Yeah er. So. So ca I'll just get this. in one of these. I think you had it near the front of your notes actually . Yeah. Let's see Pythagoras on this first one no. No. I It'll be on one of these. See I do I get them right in the class Good. but er it tends to go a bit out of your head. Right. Let's have a look at another one at Pythagoras as well as. there was a I mean I've also been given a couple of ways to remember it but Right you can't remember the ways to remember it . I've got it written down somewhere but. There you are, SOH SOH CAH TOA. Okay Japanese isn't it SOH CAH TOA. Okay so what would what would sine be from that then? What would the sine be right so erm which one are we on. So that's the first one sine The sine is the opposite over the hypotenuse. Good. And the cos? Is the adjacent over the hypotenuse. Yep and tan? Is the opposite over the adjacent. Okay. But they they will be on the front of your sheet. They won't be written like that in terms of opposite Not even with this new change that's happening. Well at the moment they're putting them as just label the sides A B C and they'll say Mm. sine is A over B Yeah. cos is C over B. Right. like that. Erm it's just that it throws you a bit if you've learnt them that way. So Mhm. just label the triangle that they've got opposite over opposite and hypotenuse and adjacent and translate what they've got written there and use those . Mhm. So if we just do one. Yeah. Erm Cos I wouldn't mind doing one working out with the with the Right. Just just so I can er brush up on. So there's a triangle and we're interested in this angle here is forty degrees say. Mhm. Okay so Right all have gotta add up to a hundred and eighty hasn't it. Right so if you'd like to label that triangle. Label it right erm this'd be the opposite. Okay. This'd be the hypotenuse and this'd be the adjacent . That's it right okay. So That'd be ninety. That's the ninety. Yeah. Okay. Which would So we know that erm we're standing let's say we're standing a hundred and twenty metres Yeah. away from the bottom of this building. Right now we know that the angle from where we are up to the top is forty degrees. Yeah. Right. How would you work out the height of the building? I don't know. Erm well let's let's call it H or call it opp if you like. Mhm. The height of the building is opp. Now can you see any of these Oh I see. So you want to find the height Right. and you're calling it opp. Right. So it's going to be the cosine isn't it. Which one's got the opposite and which which two sides which o Because that hasn't got the opposite. which ones do we which one do we know? Oh I see. Yeah we know the adjacent. Right we know the adjacent. And we know the opposite. And we're trying to find out the opp so we want something that ties up opp and adjacent. Which one is that? Tangent. Okay. Right. So we've got tan forty degrees equals opp over adjacent which is equal to well we don't know opp so we'll just leave it as opp over a hundred and twenty. Okay so if you find the tan of forty degrees. Now how do I do that do I just Oh okay you just put forty degrees in . Forty f forty. And then press tan. And then the equals. That's it. Do I press that no makes no difference. That's nought point eight three nine one. Okay leave leave that in. So it's nought point eight three nine etcetera Mhm. okay and we've got opposite over a hundred and twenty at the moment and we want we just want opposite. So what would we do to both sides of the equation what would we do to that side to turn it into opposite instead of opposite divided by a hundred and twenty. Don't know Right if think of a number any number you like Yeah. okay multiply it by ten and now divide it by ten. Back to the number you thought of Ten. Okay. Yeah. think of a number multiply it by two now divide it by two back to the number you though of . Mhm. So think of some number right divide it by a hundred and twenty now we want to get it back to the number we first thought of so what Mhm. would we multiply it by. We thought of some number divided by one twenty now we want it go back to the number we thought of. Er what would you make it one twenty? So that's it. We just multiply it by one twenty now. any number you like divided by one twenty then multiplied by one twenty comes back to that number. Mhm. So that will just cancel out and we'll have that. Now we do it to one side of the equation so there that's one twenty write it out again nought point eight three nine etcetera is equal to opposite divided by a hundred and twenty. multiply that side by a hundred and twenty so we must do the same on the other side of the equation. Mhm. Right so we multiply this by a hundred and twenty. So what if I just go. Times it. Times one two O Okay. equals one hundred point six nine. So we've got on this side one hundred point Six nine. six nine equals opp . So that's the height. So the height is a hundred point six nine metres. Now you'll then have to look and see if they tell you to give it to the nearest metre or the nearest maybe the nearest maybe the nearest point one of a metre or three significant figures or three decimal places. Mhm. And make sure that you give it the way they want. Now what would that be to the nearest metre? A hundred. Would it? No a hundred and one. Right okay watch that watch the rounding if it's Mm. point five or more you round up . Mhm. So opposite is equal to the the height. Of the building which is equal to a hundred and one metres to the nearest metre. Yeah. Now if there'd been I don't know the length of this or something. Yeah. Then you'd use it's what you do is you work out which ones do we know? Well we know Mhm. the angle and we know that so how can we it up So this slightly different than looking for angles isn't it. Cos say I was looking for angles and that would've just been fifty up here wouldn't it. Right that would be fifty. Yeah. So let's do But then you wouldn't need the erm Pythagoras's theory would you for that. If we've got if we've got the angle usually we g going to use trig. Mhm. If we've got two side but we haven't got an angle then we'll just use Pythagoras. Mhm. Okay. Have a look at this the other way up. We didn't know that angle but we Mhm yeah. knew this one was fifty. Right well this time We want that'll become the We'll get opposite. we'll get that's the that's going to be the opposite That'd be the that's still the hypotenuse that never changes. But this one would be the opposite and this one now would be the ad adjacent. Okay. that's the one looking at fifty degrees. Yeah. So this time what do we know? Well we know the opposite and we're trying to find the adjacent. Mhm. So which one of these uses opposite and adjacent? Tan. So it'll be tan again but his time we'll have tan fifty is equal to one twenty over the adjacent which is what we're trying to find. Right. Multiply both sides by adjacent. So on this side we get adjacent. We've got fifty tan haven't we. Fifty tan Okay. that's one point ni one nine. One point one nine . Nine. Okay equals a hundred and twenty over adjacent now multiply both by adjacent. Adjacent times one point one nine is equal to a hundred and twenty. Yeah. We multiply adjacent there and adjacent here. Now divide both sides by one point one nine. Adjacent times one point one nine over one point one nine equals a hundred and twenty over over one point one nine. Okay? Mhm. They cancel out so the adjacent is going to be that. So if you do if you just press ah One two O Divided by divided by one point nine Now if you just put in fifty. Divided by fifty? put fifty and then tan and now equals. Now we've divided it by the tan of fifty because you see Well that comes to a hundred and sixty nine. if you round up half way through the way you were going to do then Mhm. and just call it one point one nine Mm. you lose quite a bit of accuracy. Mhm. So again that comes to a hundred point six nine. So it doesn't matter which way you do it and which way round you do it Yeah. and which angle we work with it still come to the same thing. So you can Mhm. do it either way. Yeah. And usually you'll work with the angle that you've been given rather Mm. than working out the other one. So some of them will be given and some of them won't and you'll work out which ones can I fit in here opposite adjacent or that. Now on is that okay? Yeah. Or do you think Well could do with another one? Yeah I could do with another one I think. Okay. Er let's see if we've got. You see these ones I suppose Let's pick one out of there then. Erm all he's been doing here is getting me to find the sides. See opposite hypotenuse adjacent. Opposite adjacent this is what you've been talking about the a the angle isn't it. Okay. It's only just dawned on me now how he's got to that. Right. Hypotenuse is the longest side and the opposite is opposite to the Angle. angle. and the adjacent is the one left over . Which makes that the adjacent. That's it. Yeah. And you've got these written in here sine Mm. cos and tan. We've been using the words SOH CAH TOA to help remember these . Each angle has its own unique sine cosine or tangent. This means they can be stored in a scientific calculator. Er They're usually not stored they're calculated inside the calculator. The calculator Yeah. has a little program that goes chuntering away Mm. working it out. Mm. Oh there are silly old Howard Kendal and his team of amateurs. Okay can can you remember that? What. Silly old Howard Kendal and his team of amateurs. Er the maths teacher in school didn't like that cos he's an Everton supporter. Ooh. Right can you remember that? As I say it will be on the front of the sheet so you can I'd probably remember that easier to be honest SOH CAH TOA. Mm SOH CAH TOA. I mean having found you know this sine is the opposite over the hypotenuse tan is basically what you've got to find I suppose is which two sides of the triangle you're using. That's it. Yeah. And so you'll look for sort of these two combinations to find out whether it'll be a tangent a cosine or a sine. Exactly that's it Yeah. that that's all there is to it. What sides have I got here? Right and let's say in this one we had opposite and adjacent so we said where does that come there it is opposite and adjacent so it'll be tan. Now if it had been opposite and hypotenuse which one would you have used? It would have been sine. And if you'd had adjacent and hypotenuse? It would've been cosine. That's it Mm. That's that's that's all there is Yeah. to it. Once you've sort of spotted that which you have you you Mm. shouldn't have any trouble at all. Yeah. So let's just try one to sort that out. Erm here y'are we've got a lad with a kite it's fixed on the ground well let's say let's say it's fixed on the ground first of all and erm we're trying to find out how high it is and it's directly over this point which is erm and we don't we don't know. We know it's at an angle of ooh let's use forty degrees again. The kite string is making an angle of forty degrees there and it's got a hundred metres of the line payed out. And he wants to know how high it is. Mhm. So the first thing is what what's the first thing you do? Find the sides. Okay so the first thing to go in which is pretty obvious. That's it. Which would make this the opposite Right. This the adjacent and this the Which is the one you really did first isn't it. Hyp what In fact you really did the hypotenuse first I think Yeah. cos you put the right angle in you though right Yeah. Okay so what do we know and what are we trying to find out? Well we know we've got an angle of forty degrees Okay. Erm a hundred metres we want to find the height. So we want to find the opposite. Right and what do we know which of the other sides do we know? The adjacent. Mm we don't know that do we? No. Oh er the hypotenuse is at forty. That's that's the hundred metres that's the length of his string. There's his kite on the end of that. Mhm. Okay there's a hundred metres of string out so you know Yeah. the hypotenuse. So we've got opposite and hypotenuse hypotenuse and opposite which one ties those up? The hypotenuse and the opposite erm Have a have a look cos they will be on the sheet. Okay. Well it's opposite over hypotenuse is sine . Right so just write the equation as you've got it there sine equals opposite over hypotenuse. So all Yeah. you need to write is sine of sine of forty equals what? Equals the opposite over the hypotenuse. Which is equal to a hundred? Well what's the opposite? We don't know that's the one we're trying to find out so we just put We don't know do we yeah you wouldn't put ninety degrees would you we don't know. No opposite that angle Yeah we don't know we want the height . That side so okay it's just And just put so just write opp. And we'll find it later. Mhm. And the hypotenuse is A hundred. Yeah. Right. So if you calculate the sine of a hundred of forty degrees now and leave it in the calculator. for doing that you go forty That's it forty and then sine. helps if I put the calculator four O Sine. sine and you don't need to put press the equals do you do it's nought point six four two. So we've got nought point six four etcetera Mm. is equal to opposite divided by a hundred. Well we don't want opposite divided by a hundred we want just opposite. So what would we multiply this thing by to turn it into just opposite? A hundred. That's it. So we multiply by a hundred on that side so we must multiply by a hundred by a hundred on the other side to keep Mhm. it balanced. Yeah. What's a hundred times that come to? so I'll go times one nought nought equals sixty four point two. Sixty four point two seven Which is nearer point three. Yeah. Sixty four point two seven nine Eight seven eig eight. Oh sorry two seven eight seven six. Yeah. Two seven eight seven six etcetera is equal to That's fine so that's opposite. And it depends on what they want if they want it to three decimal places with this Yeah. they probably want it to about the nearest metre Yeah. how high is it to the nearest metre. So what would that be to the nearest metre? it'd be sixty four wouldn't it. Excellent sixty four metres is equal to the opposite Right. height. Now can we To the nearest metre. Okay. Erm It might be this might be the paper actually no I don't think it is. I don't think it's the one I was thinking of. Erm what was I thinking of. Yeah could we do number twelve? Okay. I mean I've not done it before this is Right. a paper that I . A straight section of motorway motorway midway between P and Q. So this is this is drawing a scale diagram. Mhm. This this isn't calculating it using sine and cos or anything. Oh isn't it oh well . But they haven't It looks as if it's a right angle there Mm. It might not be. You can't take it that it is you have to draw your scale diagram . Yeah. Now how would you draw this diagram? I haven't read read the question so Okay. The diagram below shows a s straight section of motorway Mhm. nine hundred metres long P to Q is nine hundred metres long. And a church C which is seven hundred metres from P Right. and five hundred metres from Q. B is a bridge over the motorway midway between P and Q. Mhm. Using a scale a one centimetre representing a hundred metres So that'll be nine centimetres. Right. Draw round like the point P. That'd be nine centimetres erm five centimetres and seven centimetres. Okay. So how would you go about doing that diagram? I'd erm I wouldn't have thought of using a compass but you're right aren't you. Okay have you do you . Do you want a ruler? I've got one somewhere. Okay so you decided on your scale and you decided it was nine centimetres along there okay and f the way to do it fairly accurately is just draw a line that's a bit longer than nine. Mhm. And the measure off nine on it. Give yourself a starting place get the zero on that nicely Mhm. and then nine. Right. Now I've done the hard bit there straight line. Yeah. What are we going to do about this church how are you going to find out where that church C is? Erm well it's seven centimetres Okay. If I just put a point then I measured up to there Mhm. And see if I got five centimetres five. So Just say if that was seven and mm er that'd end up seven. I don't know? Er maybe I should do it on graph paper. No cos your graph paper wouldn't show you the s at an angle. No. You could do it with two rulers couldn't you. If you put one ruler on here and kept sliding them about until it was Yeah. seven from there and five from there. Mhm. But there's a much easier way of doing it. Right what what is it? Well use your compass and just draw that's P show me all the points that are seven hundred metres from P. Draw the draw the path of all the points that are seven hundred metres from P. an idea here Hey. that there so er that's seven hundred right. Okay. And this is P. Right. Right. So if we sort of went like that Okay. that's the that's the path isn't it. Right. And if we set this on five. Brilliant that's it okay you've got it. Like that and set it on Q. Right. Right where it meets which is there. That's it. So anywhere along there is seven from P anywhere along this one is five from Q. And that place where they meet Should be five from Q and seven form P. Should be just right then shouldn't it. Yeah so we'll go simple when you know how innit. It's like a lot of things if you if you do know how to do them you think what's the problem if you haven't Yeah. done them before Oh lovely thanks very much. Have you had your hair cut then? Yes Oh you don't like it do you? I've I've no comment no comment. No I I prefer longer hair for women Yeah. Yeah yeah my wife's always saying she's going to have her hair cut Yeah yeah. And then measure that angle it says. Right now where's where's the question oh here it is up here isn't it. use that one or another one? Now how do you measure an angle? I'm not used to using this on a circle. Ah hang on Right. you gotta get it somewhere like that haven't you. Mhm. Or has it gotta be on this line here? Well the angle we're measuring is this one here what angle are we going to measure? Find the angle P C Q so . P C Q so we're measuring this angle here. It looks very much like a right angle. Mhm. So we need this on one of the lines yeah. Yeah. And that little cross sometimes it's a little hole on the corner on the angle itself. Mhm. Now we can measure it and it's not Ninety. not ninety it's Eighty five. What have we got have a look I mean we don't know that we've draw this completely accurately. Looks about ninety four. Yeah right. Right. Yeah. Ninety four. How could we check if it is actually ninety and we've got it wrong. That was seven wasn't it and this was er sorry that was nine that was nine No that was nine, that was seven and this was five. That's seven and that's five. How could we check if that was if that's really supposed to be ninety and we've and the drawing's not quite right. Cos that line you've drawn there. It's just slightly off yeah. Doesn't doesn't go to that point at all so that would make see how much difference that makes to the Mm. angle. Yeah. So measure that angle again. Now it's looking like about ninety one. Yeah. Ninety two ninety one ninety two See and that's not quite on on that there. And that's not quite on so that would bring it a little bit it might be about ninety two or something it might Mm. be ninety. How can we check if it is ninety? Erm. From the numbers we've got there. By using one of the Pythagoras's theorem. Okay good. So if that if that's a right angle only if it's a right angle cos Pythagoras's theorem doesn't work if it's not then we've got the easy way to remember Pythagoras is long equals medium plus short. Mhm. I mean it's not just the long it's long squared equals medium squared plus short the the medium and the short sort of would add up to give the long. Mhm. That's one way of thinking of it. So the long one squared Does nine squared equal seven squared plus five squared. So what's nine squared? Nine nines is eighty one. Okay yeah and seven squared? Erm forty nine. Alright and five squared? Twenty five. Right. What's forty nine and twenty five come to? Well it doesn't Seventy four. it doesn't come to Seventy four. Yeah seventy four it doesn't come to eighty one. No. So it's not a right angle triangle. But you look at the diagram they've given you which is not exactly the scale and they do this quite a bit. See it's about like that it's a little bit It's it's ninety and a tiny bit Yeah. and you look at it and you think Ooh must be a right angle. Mm. And a lot of people answering that question will just assume it's a right angle Yeah. and they'll do that and sort of get very few marks on it so watch Mhm. that when you've got one that looks like a right angle and they Mhm. don't say it is. Yeah. But that way for doing Pythagoras. Erm let's have a look at a couple using Pythagoras. Let's say we've got erm this one is If that's thirteen and this one is twelve right mm with a bit of luck that should be a right angle ish. It's not exactly a right angle it's not drawn to scale. But that's a right angle call it X or whatever you like. Want to find that side and we know that's thirteen centimetres and that's twelve centimetres and that's a right angle how would how would you go about finding that? And you want to find that side well we get the right way wouldn't it let's see. That would sort of tell me that that was the hypotenuse and that was the adjacent . Right okay so that's the hypotenuse. Adjacent. Ah now you haven't got an adjacent or an opposite with Pythagoras. Oh no. You've got all you've got really you've got the hypotenuse but you don't need to bother with you just can call it the long one. Mhm. And remember your equation long squared equals medium squared plus short squared. Mhm. Okay right which is the long one which is the longest one? Thirteen. Thirteen. So we get thirteen squared equals and what's the medium one? One three times one three equals one six nine. Okay what's the medium one. And the medium one is X. Is it? Mm. On no no sorry that's the short the medium one is twelve yeah. It doesn't matter if we get them the wrong way round it'll still work out. Which is a hundred and forty four. Plus the short one squared so And the short one is X. if we subtract twelve squared form each side. Thirteen squared minus twelve squared equals short squared. Okay. Mhm. So if you work out what thirteen squared minus twelve squared So it's a hundred and sixty nine minus a hundred and forty four isn't it. Mhm. Twenty four. Twenty? Twenty five. Right sounds okay Centimetres. That's what I that's what I got. Yeah. equals short squared. So five is the short side. Five is equal to the short side. Mhm. So that will be five centimetres. Right. Okay. So if you get on an exam something like that and they're and they're saying to you A to B is sixty mile to London. Mm. What's the bearing between London and Glasgow? Ah. Like how does it Okay so we'll fini we'll finish up with right angles first. If you're looking at triangles you're first thing you're looking at is has it got a right angle? Is there a right angle in it somewhere? If it hasn't well you probably you've got problems. Mm. so that's your first one has it got a right angle? If it has yes we go do they give you an angle? Right let's say they do. Have they given you have they given you the length of two sides? Yeah. Mhm. Two lengths given yeah. Yeah. If so you can use Pythagoras which is long squared equals medium squared plus short squared. To find third side. Okay? Yeah. If it isn't if you haven't got the two lengths given you've got you've got one length plus one angle. That one angle is apart from the right angle. Right. Yeah. Apart from the. So if you've got one length and one angle then depending on which one you've got you're going to use sine cos or tan to find the side the length you want. Mhm. that's if you've got an angle and a length. A length and an angle you'll use the trig. Yeah but otherwise. You'll use Pythagoras. Right so if they give you two s two lengths to fine a third length the easiest way and the most accurate way is use Pythagoras. Mhm. If they give you one length and an angle then you'd use either sine or cos or tan to find the other one. Right. Sometimes on this one they might give you erm two lengths and they might ask you to find an angle. Can we do one of them? Right er they might sometimes so that's to find a side and this actually comes off here. Right given two sides plus right angle Mhm. Find an angle. Again you'd use trig. Yeah. Right. opposite not opposite but opposite page. Mhm. So let's say we've got a hill. And erm we know that we went along this hill and we went along fifteen kilometres. Okay? Yeah. And when we'd gone along fifteen kilometres we'd gone up by four point eight metres. Mhm. Right what we want to find is how steep is the the hill we want to find that angle. X degrees. How would you go about that? Erm You've gotta carry it around with you. It's on volume ten. Well it says, like the microphone here look. You've got to put it at chest height Mm. make sure it's knocked or covered by clothing. Cos if you have to brush it won't break the quality. If you're at home you can put the machine and microphone on the table near where it will still pick up conversation. Does that I mean work by a from now on. Probably. Right right and giving things away. There's nothing to give away. Where's your tapes? Yeah, there's a load of tapes! It's a lot isn't it? I think they're all I think they're ninety minutes. Ninety minutes on each tape! Good grief! Well forty , I think they're C nineties. Well I can talk the hind leg off a donkey, will Oh all that God! ! Yes I know. It makes you feel very No, I don't think about it, just let it run. Look at him! Well I couldn't care cos I don't like taping so I shouldn't ! Well it's never stopped you before! Mm. Not right now though. Oh! I've got a cup of tea. No, you were right what you said though about Mm. Matthew. Yeah I just it just seems to me such a complete and utter waste of of, his time primarily for fifteen, I mean this being identified a year earlier which we reckon it was you would think that even given all the red tape and everything else I'll have to look up his records at least. You know it makes you well it makes you wonder whether something could be done without placing him, for his sake! Cos he's never gonna achieve anything in an ordinary class. He's just got such a downer on himself Mm. and he's he's got such a a negative way of looking at himself and everybody else looks at him that way now. Cos he he, he cannot be positive he contributes nothing! It's hard being positive In his own eyes. for him isn't it? Well it's, I mean I feel sorry for him but having said Well I do and I don't sometimes. well having said that, although I feel sorry for him I get annoyed with him! Yes. Like I said he's his own worst enemy! Because he wastes everybody's else's time. And everybody else is fed up with him! Well this is why I think he'd be better off,hi his needs are not met by a class teacher. And I don't think they have been for this last Mm, we need a support teacher to go there. for the last year. But yo , you need somebody who's gonna work with him every day and with an individual programme and you just can't offer that in a class. Mm, it's difficult. The only way you can do that is if he goes to a special unit at Maidstone and works Well I don't think there's provision for him now you see because it's a Mm. there's a term and a half left before he moves on. Well this, this is what I'm saying, if it had been picked up and followed through at an earlier stage he would have been ensconced Oh yeah , well there must have been and a problem identified earlier on but er Oh! Well I think so I think it's been identified but I don't think it's been followed through. Well, it's like so many other things isn't it? Yeah, that's always the way though innit? I just cos when I see children like that and you know there's nothing you can really do for them, you can't make up for the fact that they've got a rotten home life and that's top and bottom line that's what it is! Yeah. You're trying to be everything and they're pushing it away cos it's not what they really want and they, I mean, all, all you can get from him is how marvellous, you're right, how marvellous his brothers are and yet, what I've heard of the brothers they're not Not much, yeah. they're not all that marvellous, they're not really that much to look up Ah. to. No And they, they've role model is it, really? No. I suppose marvellous to the wrong things! Oh well! And he he was talking Was anything else said or acted upon or shall I use the kids who are done today ooh,tha that should be done. No. I don't think so. Done today? No. No I said erm I had a conversation with Gillian about reading, about little bits of reading and, I made the point that we'd said last night about him barking at print, reading through words that he didn't know and not asking what they were and she said she'd noticed that. And, cos we had a bit of a laugh about it, I don't know what I'm telling you about it for cos you hear him read anyway! But she said yes, she'd noticed, but she said they are getting more out of this Johnny Briggs book than the other book. Mhm. So she's quite pleased that she's put them on to it, it is difficult. brilliant! Sorry? Nothing. Mm. And I saw Mrs Oh yes? in the bank, I went up to the bank And what did she have to say for herself? She's alright. I just don't feel that you know, she's basically taken Robert back last night, that was very kind of her and all that, she said oh it's been nice to have him and erm but er Oliver and Robert had got on really well and erm that's all really . Are you still working? Yeah ! It's alright Er it's just some noise I heard on the tape. oh and we were jus well we just sort of cha , I was just talking about the weather, she was saying how cold it was. And erm and I made the point that I tipped all your lot out of I said what and I hadn't let them go in the classroom and I said it's a new thing but I said they got their coats on they're too macho to wear them that's their problem, you know! They've got their coats in school. But we they were very good about going out, I'm not going up to her again! She's just gonna have to cry herself to sleep I'm afraid. I've just Mm. had enough of her now! She's tired, she's had a busy day, so When was she last asleep? Erm just before I came in from school and we were home by about half three. But she's ready to go off really, she probably would have done if Robert hadn't tipped the milk everywhere! Was she asleep by then? And then ranted and raved cos she probably just about going off then, you see it woke her up all the fuss and kerfuffle! Mm. I was so mad with him for doing it! So silly! The trials and tribulations of a family life! Mm. Trials and tribulations! I tell you a ou I said today when I was in school cos that's like being at home with my three year old, it was just like that today being stuck in there! I'll just go up and see to her. Alright. And try and sort her out. Where's your bit of paper then you have to fill in on this? About where you're working and what you're doing and who you're doing it with and how often! The log book? Yeah,that's the word ! Ha! The the log book! Near the dictionary, yeah. I there's quite a few questions innit? You get a conversation record booklet, tapes one to ten. Where's your ? Sorry that was the one I was looking for. Each side covers one side, forty five minutes of a ninety minute tape. Mind you, there's been a great pause on it while you went to see to the baby. Mm. So then they're all the details, and there's examples and So, you're gonna take that out with you tomorrow? When we go and buy the corn and er goat mix? I could do. I'm just trying to think where you what you're gonna do when I have my, have my hair cut? I don't know. I'll find something. I'll be about an hour I reckon. I must find that photo as well. The erm take it with me. I feel I should be all philosophical and start spouting!! What about? I dunno. It sounds good. I'm spouted out I think! I told you that I was punned today didn't I? I'd Mm. suddenly forgotten, it suddenly just it just didn't twig with them at all. They didn't laugh when he mentioned then? Yeah they they groaned at the ones we'd come up with but when it came to making their own up And they couldn't. they'd come out with half of one, they'd come out with things like I think you're er I dunno er, not barking up the wrong tree that was the wrong one, but the they'd sort of come out with half of a pun and they wouldn't finish it off, like oh th , this is smashing! Sa , and I'd say yeah but that's not a pun that's only a pun if you if you write down this is smashing said erm the robber or the smash and grab, in other words the window fell in, that kind of thing, you know. Well anyway how do , does that link with sea Well we had to words ? we, no we broaden it i i , they they just couldn't manage on the sea ones . Cor there's loads! Oh they couldn't si , yeah don't forget yo , well I don't know why I'm telling you, but, you know your ri , your age range. They managed to get some ones on the sea, but they did have a try erm a lot of them come up with the erm barking up the wrong tree said the dog, you know, things like that with a bit of help. Yeah. Erm there's another one that a lot of came up with one or two had heard a few before and they all groaned and then accused you of making them all up! I said, no, actually but that's always a lie ! Oh I thought you might say that! So they all laughed at Mm. that and then but that was quite hard really! When I think about it they did ha erm, but I'm fed up with talking about school! Let's talk about something else ! School's banned now is it? Yeah. I don't know what I'm gonna do tomorrow. What a wicked dog! Oh God ! You're gasping for air are you? Cor blimey! I don't know what my mother's fed that dog today , but it's certainly repeating on him tonight! Mm. Kick him out then. Mm, he's laying there pretending it's not him, look! Get him off that carpet! Oh dear! Oh Laura I must just Get him off the carpet! I must just tell you this, Laura did make me laugh, cos she said she stood up and she said, I'm gonna give my talk about cats so I said, fine. She said, and I'm gonna talk about my cat Ginger and my brother's car an , and my brother's Barney, oh by the way Barney's dead! So she just carried on ! Oh , that's the end of that conversation ! ! But she spoke of and she kept speaking about him being So matter of fact. in the she kept speaking about him as tho , as though he was all, you know, still alright, and that was just so funny the way she said it and I thought I mustn't laugh cos that er,i she doesn't intend to be funny with it at all! That was quite good, in fact, she'll have Oh. talking about school! Yeah. Oh! Oh! Oh! School's banned! They're doing some good things at weekend. Oh aye? Such as? Having carpet down in one corridor! Nice. And they're painting the walls! Mm mm! wine , yeah lovely! Mm! How's the new Head going down now then? Well mixed I think. There are those who struggling with the old Head who never knew what was going on and like Yeah. this Head They like him? and there are those who think this new one's Too too squeaky! To squeaky ? gone in , no no no, she's just gone in and er doing too much too soon, yeah, yeah. They're a very established staff you know Well it's there's not been much change Yeah I see it, over that, I mean that's Suffolk all over isn't it, really for you? Th they si they sit and look at change for ten Mm. years and then they think, yeah we might do something and then they actually go out and do it ! Yeah , watching the grass grow is pretty Yeah. dramatic down here! Sometimes it can be, yeah. Yeah, it's interesting though! I mean, it looks nice it's see I'm impressed with her I must admit, impressed with her. It looks better than it did. And the decor. Well that'll totally depress Terry if he goes there then won't it? But theirs is bigger, they've got a pottery room, they've got careers education there Yeah, they've got two classes, they're looking to the library. Yeah but I mean yours is a big school now isn't it? Well ours has got loads more pupils than theirs! And they've just got more room haven't they? They've got, they've Yeah, well they've got an old secondary modern school there. Well it's the old six, yeah that's right. That's why. Oh I mean they've got the facilities purposely built Cor, too right! really, that's that'd be lovely! It's ideal! I mean, we should have their site. Yeah. It's like the girls said to me today, erm just before the end of I'm doing it again! But anyway, just before the end of the morning, they said erm could we practise our talks on each other, and there was only ten minutes left so I said, yes and they said well can we go somewhere quiet? And the only way place I could think to send them was the girls' changing room! Oh. There wasn't anywhere else! Wasn't it? Cos the library was being used it was a quiet the hall was, they're getting ready for lunch yeah it was a quiet joke at the staff meeting that er you know and my office is er gonna be taken over because they need the extra toilets! Ha! I would say oh they do for these extra classroom they're gonna Well you ma ah, made me laugh when you just sit there in that corner doing paperwork! Like when you were in the other week and I was taking that class I don't normally sit there. Well it was just so funny, it's just the kind of place you'd expect to see naughty boys, there was you sitting to the Yeah, but I was quiet, I was hardly marking papers , you know! Well there aren't any other places! Oh I know! I mean Terry said I could use his office but You feel as though it's he keeps coming in and ah, it feels and the secretary's knocking on the door, the telephone rings, and I got a bit of work done. that's inhibiting as well isn't it? And it's almost like crowding somebody's personal space if you go in their office. And, I feel that when I go in your room now very much that it is your room, and I feel the same when I go in Glenys's, it's her room Well I mean that should be and you're a visitor there which is as it should be. it shouldn't be after, what , seven years? Yeah. But that's just it. Never been painted, never been clean and tidy. Ah but but it's, it's all to do with having your own personal space I think. Yeah, be o , interesting if they are. Cos mum made me laugh tonight but she came in and she said oh you can have a hot cross bun there, I said well I think I'll have a piece of chocolate cake and she said alright then! I said, oh I'm glad you approve being as though it's mine and it's my house, I can eat what I want! And she'd just totally forgotten ! Mm. Comfortable So you see. i , it was really quite funny! But you cos she'd said looking after the littlest ones all day and and she's obviously been speaking to them like that during Ah. the day and got this that's like your grandma did that with erm with June once or Yeah. twice. And June wanted to go out and yo , your granny said make sure you're back before midnight ! Mm. There she was a married woman with a She's a right wally? mm kids as well! They assume an awful lot man. Yeah. The elderly do. The wrinklies, now there's a word! In common usage, the wrinklies ! Yeah. As the children so sweetly call them! Oh, woe betide anybody who calls me one! Yeah, I know. I've seen so many grey hairs . Am I a wrinkly yet ? Is this the sign of wrinklydom! You know ! Wrinkly ! Wrinklydom. There such a Oh. word? I dunno, erm don't think there's such a There ought to be! as wrin , now I know where that's come from. What wrinkly? Naff, as well, is another word that the kids use a lot. It's really naff! No, I think that's passed out now. They don't like . It's out of What was that word that erm Ebony was, used? And I wa commented on it to you, it was when I borrowed the maternity robe from Penny and she said one, talking about one of the dresses and that meant it was really awful and I can't think what Gross? Gross! Yeah. That's American though isn't it? Well, well that's them,Ro Robert uses that. Does he? Well Christopher came in here the other day and he says that cake is Oh yes,las , yes last night, mm. really gross ! Yeah I know. Gross! Gross! But when you used to look at the te , you know, the children's television programmes, they're Yeah. nearly all American, the cartoons. Yes it's a hundred and forty four isn't it, a gross? Yeah. Suppose so. With the old numbers. Yeah. I don't remember using that. Ace, was the word that we used a lot. Carry on. It's ace! Ah, everything was ace, and ace that! Oh god I it dates me ! Carbon dates, you! Oh no chance! Makes me seem ever so old! Oh. Looking round at people today and you mi , try to imagine them in their own home setting you know? And what they're like out of work you know? It's I mean it's it's difficult to picture people anywhere other than where you actually meet them at work. I can't im , with not knowing where they live, I mean I can't envisage where what kind of houses I mean some of them have got, some . Quite interesting. Oh. Are we gonna watch Victoria Wood at nine? If you want to. I like that. Seen them all before! Ah but they're funny! They are funny! Oh! Hang on, I wanna watch the the Oh! Good Guys! That's finished innit? No, there's one more episode, I'm sure there is. Oh that's really naff! Well I prefer that to Victoria Wood! Oh, well I'll tape Victoria Wood then cos I like that! Them Mm. Good Guys, it gets more of outrageous every week, you can't believe a word of it! There's no plot to it at all, it's it's just so farfetched! Well then we'll watch Victoria Wood then. Oh! Alright then ! If you want to watch it now darling. Well I mean I've watched that the Good Guides Guys ! They're the Good Guides! The guys ! I watched the Put your teeth in. Good Guys sa a couple of times and whether it was gonna improve or not but it hasn't! Been waiting for it to get better every week and it Well this could be the episode! And you've missed it! Yeah! Cos we've been watching the repeat of Victoria Wood! Oh yeah, if we see Why is that Care Bear down there, has she had it out the bath? Probably. difficult to sleep innit? No, you tell them, I'm fed up of telling kids off today! You haven't had any to look after today! None of your kids! This week I have. Mm. I didn't have no didn't have any complaints at dinner time, Oh I don't care Sue, I'm not bothered. Mm. That's alright then. Oh one of the hens got erm landed on the top of the black net cos I I'd put some corn and stuff in you see and she landed on it and she got her feet stuck through netting so she was flapping and the net was just going up and down ! It's quite er No that, that'll give way, that will be alright. Now as she, I flapped it, I got hold of it and I flapped it so it, I sort of bounced about, she sort of bumped along Yeah, you have to. until she got onto that crossbar and then she just flew straight back and did exactly the same thing all over again and I just thought sod it! I left her on there! Yeah. And that she'll just have to take a chance tonight. Cos she saw me putting the corn in and she decided she'd try and get it by diving through the black net instead of going through the gate, like with a normal hen, you know, this one's obviously brain dead or They are stupid that lot! They are silly! Mum said they'd been all over today! Dad opened the front door and he said there was a troop of them walking up the path! He said, he just said get out of it! They all we , turned round and went the other way again ! Surprising that he'd talked back to them, yes. Yeah. But the , I mean I came home and they were under the hedge they weren't going through but there's a big piece of netting has come down and it needs erm stitching up and then it needs sewing, not sewing erm That's alright, if it's fine let me do that. i , but it needs two of us, it needs somebody on the inside and somebody on the out just to stop them flying through it. Cos the, the the the cock was on the back door this morning, crowing! Somebody there was crowing at about half past twelve, quarter to one this morning! There were two of them crowing their heads off! Oh I never heard them Yes! Oh God we'll be popular round here won't we? That's what I thought. I never heard them Carl! I mean you're not locking him in any more are you? You're not shutting the door. Well I I hadn't been shutting the one that don't make no difference still, there's only cos Pavarotti's out anyway! Cos he he won't Yeah but you don't let the other two, I mean it's I ought to perhaps we ought to start closing them in again then that'll keep Yeah, perhaps you ought to. them quiet. But the trouble was with closing them in, not so much on the , but on the old flock it was so warped, the wood with being damp and wet and frosty it was freezing across every night and it was nearly taking my fingers off Mm. getting it open in the morning, that really hurt! Well put a little loo loop or something there. It's too, too rotten, the wood. But I've got, what I've gotta do is repair that other coop Mm. and get that there and then it'll be a lot easier cos mum said she struggled today to get in that door of the , I said well what do you go in there for? And she was going in for eggs or something, said well I usually leave them a day or two in the winter cos it doesn't hurt and she said she struggled and struggled with that door! She said it hasn't got any at the minute! I said, well no cos it was on, like strings but er that does need fixing. But it's just been too wet and too nasty to do anything about it so when we've got a chance we'll have to really do. She said she's looking forward to the day that we get it fixed ! Said, oh I'm sorry mum, I'll go and get you some eggs! Cos they are quite tame, I mean that's one thing about the hens I mean they can't come out though, they just wander about. And it but the erm the goats apparently were no problem today, they just stayed on and gave them a few bits and pieces you know so that was fair enough . Oh, I wish she'd hurry up and go to sleep! I think I'll have to put her down again then. Put her down! I can't understand it! I mean she's she's been up and been busy and she's had a warm bath and she's had a bottle of She'll start this caper again though! Yeah, coming in at night. I wo , well she was awake in the middle of the night, I don't know what time it was but all I could hear was mummy, mummy, mummy! Why didn't you just put her back into bed! And I lay her down and she bawls! Well it doesn't matter! I didn't hear her! Well, I heard her! And I feel really guilty, I think oh I better bring her in and then she wakes me up at six o'clock bouncing on the bed! So And o , also when it's the day before I, I'm working I'm very conscience that I don't want her to be upset in the morning, same with Christopher I don't want any upsets in the morning. I don't want her frazzled and I don't want him upset in the morning cos I wanna go out and have a nice even keel then Mm. and not have to worry that they're er gonna be a problem for mum Yeah. to look after you see, so I think if that's the price we gotta pay if it's a choice between tha Oh yes! putting up with that and me not going out then I'm afraid we'll just have to put up with it! Cos it's it's too erm expensive to do otherwise. That's what I reckon anyway. Aren't you gonna turn that off yet? No, we'll let the first side run. Are we? We'll Mm. play it up later on! You're doing very well thank you ! I think I've only said about three words in you're doing all the chatting. Well you can't get a word in edgeways can't you? No. I'm used to it! No you're not! Oh well of course that's making me have a parched throat you know, so you're gonna have to ma , go and make me a cup of tea! Please? No, you're making me one. Oh go on! No. Why's that pendulum blue? Oh, pass! I've no idea. Pendulum why are you blue? I don't know said the pendulum! I don't know dear! I don't know. We've got big cobwebs up there and all! Don't tell everybody our secrets ! Sorry! Oh dear! It's quite a surprise! Mm. Yeah. This is what could be termed in as a a pregnant pause ! Oh! Level four, attainment target two it'll be . Oh, oh I dunno ! You get gobble-eyed looking at all those dockets. Well I had a quick look at them. Oh no, you're doing it again, you're talking about school! We can't talk about school, it's boring No, I'm gasping for a cup of tea! What are we gonna do now? Well if I go through now she's just quietened again just wait until sh , there's no noise at all from up there, give it another ten minutes. Okay. Then and then I think hopefully she'll settle. Has she got a dolly in her cot with her? She does like that so we'll have to go and get Christopher's present won't we? On Monday. Still seems quite keen on a train Yes he does seem keen on the railway track. Anything, apart from get away from tractors for a bit! Trouble is, is the floor space, he puts it out and gets stood on. Yeah. We'll have to encourage him to put in on the table. Mm, scratch the table, yeah! Mm. Oh he's, oh dad's buying a sander did I tell you? No I didn't. Dad's buying a sander. Cos he said to me, he said don't rush in to stripping that table cos he's gonna buy a sander to keep his Did you tell him we were gonna do the table? Yep. He said leave it don't do it yet. I said, well we hadn't intended doing it yet cos the children being so young that er that's what he needs. And he said to me, he said if you hang on erm, he said you can borrow it and sand it all down, you know? So, I thought that was nice of him. It'll be nice that. Yeah. I thought it was a good idea. But you know, until then I think we're gonna have to make it that the railway goes on the table, she ju , she doesn't see it Carl, she just when she broke that Yes I know. that combine, the she just trod on it but she never saw it! Big yellow thing ! Green actually. Green, is it? Yeah but Oh it's the tractor he left that's yellow. he left it you see, but I mean she doesn't know it's ah she's, she's like Robert, Robert used to walk through things instead of round them. I can remember him doing that way back, when he was this age. She's gonna be like Robert, I reckon she'll be that kind of temperament ! What have we let ourselves in for! Another one! Another Robert, aye? It's not too bad I suppose. Could do a lot worse . Oh I don't like that woman over there. And . Why are you looking at me like that ? Well that reminds me of Robert that picture. Before or after a disaster? No ! Oh it's, he's a walking landmine isn't he? Bless his heart! Just like you he is! I know he is,that's why I get so irritated with him cos I see my failings in him so clearly! And his, his left hand doesn't know what his right leg is doing! Terrible! He doesn't seem to re relax either in friendship anyway so No, he's doing alright. You can turn the television on if you want to. Can I? Yeah. It's not on yet. Oh it'll be on in a minute Sue. We can do a bit more taping thereon, I'll be just interested to hear what you have been saying all this time, you know ! So I'm going to stop it. Well somebody's gotta talk! I want that voucher anyway ! Oh you want that yeah. Ooh you If I'm doing you all the work for you it! gold digger! Yeah! I know, terrible innit? I don't really, to be honest. Mum said she said, ooh she said tell Carl to put that towards a new suit for himself. What? That money. Wouldn't buy an arm and a leg ! and I'll buy Marks One and Spencer ! one, one trouser leg and No, she said Marks and Spencer do nice su , actually dad got a nice suit from Marks. Not for twenty five you didn't! Eh? He did! You can ask him, he had, he had mum's Alright. like you know what she get Yeah. when Discount? Yeah, that's the word. Wha , when she, when she leave well he had that, plus another twenty five pound voucher and he, he ended up with a seventy five pound suit for twenty five pound! You ask him to show it to you, on Monday when we go across. It won't fit me though. No, not your style, what I'm saying is, yes you can do it turn that damn thing off! Mm! Oh, you'll have to have your hair washed! Ha ha ah ah! Brrrr! Hair washed. I'm gonna put my bows on today. Where's Robert? Upstairs, he was down the he's just his clothes away. Oh okay. Can you sit up at the table then? No. What's that? A microphone. So you're, you're everything Hang on. you say Everything you say, yep! Everything Half. you say. Mummy! Da ! Out! Look at her hair! I'll Can yo go and get some tell Robert. Right, if you get the Wired for sound. Hey? Andrew! Why's he got that, you haven't put it on have you? Well that's on! The washing machine, erm Whose is whose? That's Robert's with the cream on it that's Ugh! Andrew's Robert! Cos he doesn't like the cream. Ugh! Mummy! Mummy! Christopher's Christopher's had his, here's your doughnut. Oh, sit down Becca! That's yours. Seen Rebecca? Oh my God! , I only give her half a one as well. And she's wearing it! Get off! This year's latest fashion! I thought I'll only give her half because I know she'll get in a mess. Whoa! Shall I get it Is that Christopher's? Cor yeah! Don't spill it! Oh it looks nice doesn't it? No! Shut up! Shut up! You got jam! I thought you liked the good old I can have the other bit then? Mummy? And that's her to sort out. Hang What? on. Are these yours Andrew? I got them. Watch out Christopher let me move the table. Andrew don't like the cream so I didn't put any cream on. Hold that cup. Yeah. Whoa! Ah, mind that chair! There look. Go on get in the side. That'll be fine. Robert, yours is out ! Put it over there. There, sit up at the table. Is Robert's doughnut there? Yes. Where's yours? I'm just now coming for mine. Robert's hiding in his bed, I'm hiding mine. I'll give her a face and a heck of hair wash tonight but Mm mm. she has to have it done anyway. Mm mm So mm. Are they good? Say, lovely! Mummy we tidied on, all under the bed. Good! Did all under the bookcase. Good! They're nothing like fresh cream in a a did to mine, I don't like the fresh cream. Not nice? I prefer this, this is the like Dream Topping type stuff so I'll let mum have the other one. They're lovely! Mm! What time's your appointment this morning? Ten fifteen. This my drink? Yeah. Mhm. Oh, I've got two then! That one there was from before. Yeah. Put that back Yeah. you'll only spill it. Okay. Oh dearie me! Think you better go in the bath my love! Oh! The water's on, I might put her in the bath and give the hair a quick wash. It can't be . Mummy, you haven't, this cream is sinking. Bet it does. Mummy your cream's sinking! Ha ! Andrew di , do you know there's a biscuit for you? Andrew, Chris is talking to you! Ah I know! Andrew did you know there was a biscuit for you? I've had mine. He's had it hasn't he? Mm, got one here. Mhm. I haven't had mine Oh my God! Latest fashion this year. Ye yeah I'm I'm just . Wearing a doughnut! Andrew , cos he's got millions of teeth now! God! He's got ten. Not millions of teeth, no. Millions of teeth, cos they're round his ears and nose! And and this arm. Are you finishing that you got half way down that like this erm I'll Eat doughnuts, tell no tales! Doughnuts tell Er, ooh ooh ooh! no tales ! So what's the procedure for today the , this morning? A bath for her. Yeah. You can do that while I put the washing out. Mm. And wash her hair, it's up to you. Yeah! Boys have to get dressed. Daddy can wash Rebecca's hair! Boys to get dressed I'll put the washing out and get myself Mm. dressed we really need to leave here Bang ! sort of ten-ish. Well it's it's plenty of time. It's only quarter past nine now. Yeah, but by the time you've washed up There's only a Tea towel. Mind your cup! Saw that Sus. He's just pushed in this cupboard. Er ha ha ha ha ha! Don't! Muttley! All you can hear is munch munch, chomp chomp chomp ! Yeah, it'll be interesting won't it? It must be highly boring listening, listening to it, chomp chomp! Mummy! Look Mummy! Mikey's chew don't forget. No, you always need to chomp. So does Andrew! Mm! So does daddy's. When I've got them in. And does mummy's. Mummy you've get chompedy cheek too ! Yeah, all the time. You sticky girl! Aha. I tell you what, we must get her a plastic food bowl. Ugh! She starting to lob her Hey! Be alright then. Get off! She's got one. Somewhere. She ain't got a plastic one though. No. She's got that green one , I haven't seen that for ages, that green one have you? Mummy ! No. Alright? I'm alright, you alright? Right! Alwight Yeah I'm alright. You alwight That could be a new dictionary word. Are you jammy? Are you jammy girl? Think so. Ooh, don't look all coy! What wash? Mum can I sing I'm a little a flea ? Sing happy birthday. Happy birthday to you can you do it? In fact, she was singing it all yesterday. Happy birthday to Andrew, to you . Clever girl! Clever girl isn't she? Ga again,Happy birthday to to ger ger ger ! Happy birthday No I thought yesterday. That's supposed to be the edited version! Clever girl, yes! Practising. Ap birthday She's practising for Christopher's Christopher birthday. Ap birthday Christopher is gonna have Ah, borgi , birthday to shall we have a little swim ah, woo ! Christopher! Oh oh! Mummy! Yeah! He's acting that one is. Yeah. But not while he's drinking his Good girl ! drinking now are they? She's put the bowl on the table now. Oh, clever gir ! Oh, so No! you're going to have a bath No! and hair wash? Back! Back! Back! Sing Happy birthday to you . I will do. Yeah Ah boo . Nee ee er ! Ner ner ner ! It sounds like happy boiled egg doesn't it? Happy boiled egg to you, yeah ! Ee yeah, oh ! Happy boiled egg ! Ay yaaa ! Yay ! That'll be another family saying won't it, happy boiled egg! That with all these,, boiled eggs to Robert! Happy boiled egg! Happy boiled egg! Thank you Happy boiled egg. birthday ! Now, sshh! Don't shout! Ooh ooh, ooh ooh ooh ooh ooh ooh ooh! You couldn't say boiled egg, and you used to call them baldies! ! ! Baldy eggs ! Cos the eggs don't care! . I must be old! Robert. I made you look young. Hap birthday Pardon? to you the noisiest of them all! Er daddy, remember you got that ! microphone on. Oh, it's alright, just ignore it. Have you been o , everybody Daddy I haven't seen that thi clip thing at Christopher's . Mummy, you got it ? And that clip thing, that clips on the Daddy ! on the amplifier. What's an amplifier? That's a good Daddy! good explanation that. Happy birthday to Hat. you . Excuse me please, I wanna get over there. Oh! Daddy look! Mummy ! No. Happy birthday to you . Oh Andrew! What? Christopher will you drink that or don't wipe it on the floor! Tip it out! Go on, take it in the other room! He's had enough, go on, take it in the other room! This tape is slowing being inundated with milk and water and stuff like that! Get me the polish will you? Can you pass that polish Sue? Again? Yes, Andrew this time! Get out Andrew, come on I'm busy! Yeah,. Spilt the milk. Mike, it's ! Daddy! . I'm not it. Hap birthday ah, Andrew Ah, wasn't as much as spilt yesterday, but it gets a bit ah boo, beyond a joke when that keeps happening cos of your clumsiness! Mad dog! Spoils the table. There he is, daddy! Right, thank you Rebecca. You you you, you ooh ! Right here are Andrew Ah ah! take that into the kitchen please? Yeah! Yeah! Hey! Yeah! You alright? I'm alright! Ooh wa Aye. Alright? No, you're not alright! Alwight You're a dirty beast! Alwight What are you? Wight? Alwight All that! Oh, on the chair as well! Mummy! Daddy ! Hello! Right! Right! Er er Mummy, ooh wee ! I'll get you Mummy, ah ! I'll get you down in a minute. Daddy ! Daddy! Daddy! Daddy! Mummy, daddy, mummy ! Who's is that? That? What's the matter? Do you wanna get down? Get down. I think you'd better, hadn't you eh? Get down! Yes. World war three you look like! A disaster area! Get down. Get Go on I'll give you a quick bath. Can you get in Christopher? I'm gonna shut the door now, be careful. That's a Sony Walkman. Okay has your, are you belted in Christopher? You can shut the door. Watch that arm on that chair look. your photo last night? I beg your pardon? Did that bloke come to you wanna sell you a photograph last night? No. in the garden with her bum in the air aeroplane Did he come round? No Did did he come round see you? No. No Well we sit indoors yesterday afternoon what about five weren't it? And somebody went to all them houses, but they never come to yours or mine. Well we thought it was either a rent man or somebody collecting for the council. I asked you didn't I? Well that, oh you, oh that silver Granada? Yeah I saw the car. they said he went back and see half past six last night. Well he said they'd been round with a helicopter, a plane taking photos of the houses, did I want to buy a photo of me house, twenty pound. That's cheap because mine was thirty seven when I had mine. It's a racket. A racket, I'd say it is, you've got I didn't say nothing like that Not it's a well I'm not going to Stradbroke. well I mean I'm not surprised they don't wanna take a picture of our garden cos it's a mess but er I'd have thought he would have taken a picture of yours and sold you one. There must be some people must have them that's right without shaking. Yeah . Yeah I'm on holiday I bet this and you're being taped you know. Oh you know . Okay I'm on holiday. I don't give two hoots about people who know you . half term now is it? Yeah half term for a nice week. I mean I need a rest. Coo Think I've earned it, don't you? Yeah I think you have, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, working hard. Anyway I, I've got me soap . In fact the only thing, I, I'm hoping Robert's packed me the razor, I'll have a shave when I'm there you know ? That was busy last week though. It was wasn't it? Was it? Yeah, we had a job getting Rebecca out though. She suddenly gets really cold but she won't come out. Right. Yeah. She'll be asleep by the time we get Is that a heated swimming pool then? Yeah it's lovely there, yeah it's erm a m just, a metre at both ends and then it shelves down to a metre and a half in the middle and it's great, it's warm, it's, you know, it's about about body heat actually. Is it? Yeah. Thirty, thirty one degrees, yeah. You get in there, it's lovely. And even Rebecca can stay in for about twenty, twenty five minutes. Yeah Sue told me the other day that er she won't come out till she's, she's right cold. Yeah. You've dropped your your weeds. Alright? You've got lots of people then have you, coming today? Yes Yeah hundreds of them. So what time are the first shift Here he come look. Here he come look. Ooh.? she's now been indoors with one Yeah, so you, there's one indoors running about indoors. A live one? Yeah Ooh Really? Yeah Don't that worry Val? Oh I'd hate that. No that doesn't matter. Amazing you sit there at night and they come from under one chair and shoot under another. And does he catch them again? Will he catch them again? Yeah. Yeah. Right well we'll see you later. Okay we'll have a, do a few strokes. Yeah it will be. See you later. Just speak into that will you? You can piss off. Speak into that . No there was a lady came round the other day, you know asking for erm volunteers to erm tape, you know, recording conversations between people and yourselves and the family, you know? Er that one that come in that car the other night? Yeah sh Did she? Well you obviously, she was looking for a spec a gentleman within a certain age range. You just didn't quite qualify you two . See you later. Are you going swimming now? Pardon? Are you gonna go swimming? Yeah. Er, what does that mean? Come on then. Ow! What's the matter now? Daddy daddy What? On the back of the car, on the dirt, I wrote Robert You should of told them. Stopped them talking. No it was going anyway. It wasn't going? Didn't you turn it on? Yeah it's on now. Oh, did you turn it on when they were talking to you? Yeah. Whether it'll hear cos the car engine was going. Yeah. Right, come on. Right, everybody strapped in? Yeah Yes. Right, okay, cor it's like driving a bus. Where's my purse? Oh a penny that I stole cos she was worried because all her Ha, did you see the cat carry a mouse across ? Yeah He's having you on you know about that I know he is. I know, I'm not daft . Did you hear the remark about the swimsuit, I showed him Rebecca's swimsuit, he said cor if you're wearing that I think I'll go swimming as well. Oh right . No he said that fellow was, last night who was calling round all the doors, was selling erm an aerial photograph. ours. Or Peter's he said. I said oh well they must have cut the film off there. Twenty pounds . I think Janet bought one of them. What's an aerial photograph? That's a picture taken from a helicopter or an aeroplane. Usually an aeroplane. Oh I'm tired. No that's a lie, I'm not tired really I'm just ugh Mm. That's still for sale. Yeah it's been for sale for a long time. It's been for sale for ages hasn't it? Big garden on that you know. They're all large gardens aren't they, round here? Yeah. Nice fr , nice frame that is. Yeah There's one or two that are, well I say that every week, there's one or two houses that I'd It's school. very it's very rural. I know. My problem is I want the comforts of rural living with the convenience of urban life. You can't even get a compromise really round here in that you've gotta have one or the other. You've gotta go one for the other. Unless you're a two car family. any crisps Sshh stop wrangling or we won't go. Those are nice houses. Again as you say it's in the middle of nowhere innit? That's right. gets me cos the church isn't central. Oh it is between the two villages. Mm. Funny . Oh look at that young one. Oh mummy goats. Yes, they're lovely aren't they? the dinosaur has fallen over. They're milking goats. Thank you Rebecca. Ha, singing away . Mm. I've brought a spare swimsuit this morning. Daddy mummy. She's going through everything. She's going through the All the words she knows. all the wor yeah, process. Is that mud on the road? Yeah it is. That's a nice house Yeah it's the farmhouse innit? Well no cos the farmhouse is next door innit? The big white one. That might be one of those that you know, family build. Yeah. Barry. Sorry Robert? Barry. Who's Barry? Monkey. Oh the chimp yeah . Barry the monkey, yes I know who you mean. Little toy. Oh!did you see that What was it? That's a nice house isn't it? Oh I didn't realize the shop had closed Oh I don't, I think so. I think it's been closed for a long time actually. Getting on with that aren't they? Doing a good job. Do you fancy that then? What? That house there. Oh somebody'll be doing it up themselves. It'll be a smart house. Erm on a bad bend though innit? Er not really. Yeah that's where the shop used to be, you're right, yeah. Yeah it is shut, yeah. Yeah oh been closed ages that has. Oh I never knew that, there's one for sale there Carl, house. Mind we always said we wouldn't buy another old house didn't we? Mm. I would put in for that if it came up. Would you? I think so. school. Well it would be silly not to wouldn't it? Give it a go. Well it wouldn't be much different to what you're doing now, but you may be would you be Well paid more? Not much. wouldn't be a lot different would it? I don't know how erm No the only parent I knew Georgie . Yes and erm She was pleased I think 's dad Paul, Timmy 's dad was the chairman of governors. Oh and he thought they were good did he? Oh and that, that little boy who was at school, Nicholas, he went there didn't he? He's still there I think. Is he? Oh well she's obviously decided she likes it. Either that or she's run out of schools to send him to . Yeah. Probably a bit nearer the mark. I think that's one of the drawbacks though to a village school. Er it can be very nice, very cosy, but I See that also epitomizes what I was saying before, you know I mean if I'm there you could be stuck there for the remainder. teaching. Oh yeah. And there's always the danger of it could it be changed, and then you've got the whole curriculum area to look after. Instead of having three to look after I'd probably end up having to look after a seven or eight. Yeah. But you see I, I don't know I can see what you mean, but I don't know whether a move would be the answer cos I think you're if you're gonna stay in teaching this is what's gonna happen. I mean it's, there must be a time when it settles. wherever you go wherever you go there's gonna be all this upheaval and I mean let's face it if the Tories don't get in this time, and pray god they don't, Labour's gonna completely Yeah alter everything that's gone before . They'll keep very little in. Yeah I know. And that doesn't fill me with any great er But I, I mean which er you, you look and you think well Well which is the wor er it's gonna be bad whi whoever's in charge really. the Scottish Nationals. At least from the point of with Labour at least they most of them send their kids through the state system so they've got a little more idea of what they're talking about. But that still boils down to the fact that everybody thinks they know how schools work cos they've been at school themselves. I get really fed up with the whole Mm Seem like all we ever do is talk about schooling other people's children. Well it's never too far from the back of your mind though is it really? No. It's funny I mean I find I'll say something, I'll think oh so and so would like that and I'm about other people's kids,why they're . Oh! Go on you naughty boy. Silly thing. Pheasant. Yeah a pheasant ran across the road. They normally do that. I s it's a good job I, it was in the grass verge cos I saw the That's the male though cos er they're a nice colour They're very colourful, yeah. I, I saw it too. There's lots of them about. It's probably from round here actually. Yeah could be off this pork farm, oh no he'd kee he'd breed partridge not pheasant wouldn't he? She's gone to sleep. poke her awake swimming now. Yeah. Yeah I always wanna paint that a different colour. Yeah it's a bit garish. Well you'd better go and do the paying this week then then you can do the tape while you're paying can't you? Yeah. Tape while you pay, yeah I will do. Looks familiar doesn't it? Mm a line of washing. line of washing. I think they had to close this pub down you know I was listening to somebody talk about it cos there were drugs going on in it. Really? Yeah, they were drugs. No I, I, no I heard a different tale, I heard that he er fell out with his wife, and he tried to kill her. Oh I can't remember who told me but I'm sure it was sure it was that one. Oh yeah it was Janet told me when we went shopping, Christmas shopping. She said ooh th they're talking about But whether he er whether he attempted to kill her and managed it I don't know but that, that was what I heard anyway. Carrots there look. Oh yeah. Oh a lot there isn't there? Do you wanna buy a carrot when we get back? Erm yeah I suppose we can do, they'll have to stay in the outhouse though I don't know. No Well take some for your mum. I could do. I was gonna take her some eggs as well. Oh eggs and carrots. Help out with the food. But it does though doesn't it? That's lovely when the hens come back into full flush like this Well we we'll stop and you can have a look and if they're any good Yeah well I'll see what cash I've got left as well cos I haven't got a lot of money on me. I hope that blooming chequebook comes . If not we draw it all out in cash which is gonna be a drag carrying a lot of money round Colchester No, no well be well before we go over to Colchester we'll go into Framlingham and er Call in at the bank, yeah. get er one drawn up. Yeah. I'm sure it should be It was a lot easier it was a lot easier when they used to give them to you over the counter. I know it was. All this, it's all got computerized. Oh he's got a wrestler just like ours, that guy. Thought it was a familiar These trees have er taken nice haven't they? It's nice to see the sun shine on the place again though innit? Yeah . Doesn't it put Really colou a different perspective on things as well? Really colourful. Mm it is a nice area. As you say you get used to it. Take it for granted like everything else, I know. I told you, you know said that there will be Mhm an old garage. Oh I've gone past, have we passed that one where the pygmy goats are like ours? They've got black and white pygmies. No it's in, it's in Stradbroke innit? Is it? Yeah. That used to be a pub I think. Sorry? That used to be a pub. Yeah, The Swan The Swan, it was probably called The Swan Inn I think. Yeah Do you know that, that little girl? From Wilby School you mean? Yes. Are we in Stradbroke? No. Not yet. No not yet. We're still in Wilby. just come out Mm. It's spread out really. Elongated. Yeah. Linear I think is the geographical expression. Sorry? Linear Linear, yeah. Follows the road. I wouldn't mind having a day in Norwich maybe this summer. Yeah we've been pr promising that for the last I know, for the last year we've been saying we'll go to Norwich Two years. for the day. I'd like to go on and lo dad went to look at the cathedral. You know when all this court business is on, and they had two hours at recess so he went to look at the cathedral with Steven and mum mentioned it and, and she said oh I think I'll go and have a look round she said when all this is over cos dad, suppose he'll never set foot in Norwich again and I said oh that's silly cos it's a, it is a lovely city. Mm. Little lambs look, little black lamb. Can you see the lambs Chris? I saw, saw some sheep. Yeah there was a little black lamb there as well. I didn't see it. Oh well, there was only one. There's some more on this side look. Have a look this side see if they've got any lambs. No they all look fat. Yes they have. Oh yes they have, one or two, they're quite big ones actually. Mind they can get them so they lamb any time now can't they? Just about, mm. Mint sauce. Mm. Dad, daddy we're going to enter Stradbroke. When? There's snowdrops all along there. Ah that's nice innit? Joan is er is up the erm, you must ring Joan. Oh yes. Yeah, must ring Joan. I'll give her a ring today when I get back home. Yeah good idea. I wonder if she'd let me have some more straw and hay Yeah as well, well I could do with really clearing out the goats. Yeah they have to be deep littered all winter but they could perhaps do with a clean though that's not bad in there. Well if I could dig a hole in the garden we could get rid of some of that stuff. Well that's it. Get rid of it quicker mulches down Yeah it's good cos it mulches down now. Hey look that's the way to do it. chicken coop, yeah. Nice one that and all. That's a nice hou I like these bungalows I can't Some I think I must be a bungalow person. Go on boy, what you gonna do There's a lurcher. Yeah. Horrible looking dogs. They are aren't they? Right, here we are then. I'll poke Rebecca awake now. Aha. Stradbroke Swimming Pool. Excuse me. Mummy not many people are there. We're not there. You always say that Andrew, and you're always wrong it's always busy on Sunday. There's one two three four five six seven Look it's a nice car innit? Is that that one we saw the other week? No what's that one then Carl? It's America. American one is it? It's a Mazda I think. Yeah. Right There's seventeen cars including us. I'll tell you what I'll I bet it's this family's here. I bet it's this lot who come to it. You reckon? Yeah. No I think they'll be the Golf G T I or the Volvo. Right I'll take my erm oh er I've gotta wake her up haven't I? They're going to the Peugeot. I'll give you the money then Carl. What is it usually, six something? I can't Daddy they're going to the Peugeot. a fiver, Can you ask about this swim ring, did you bring your wallet? Yeah. Can you ask about Armbands? Yeah. Tut armband I meant, sorry. Mind Andrew What if it there's a car pulling out. I'll wake Becky up. Yeah but if you look after it Here's a smart car isn't it, that one? No that's a great big one. Mazda. That's a Mazda. Somebody's not going anywhere. Robert you've left your swimming bag in the car. It's American cos it's got the er controls on the left hand side. Have we got everything out of the car? Is everything locked up? Robert Robert, Robert wait Alright you two Have you got everything there? No it's er it's electric, it's an electricity sign so you have to be very careful. It's probably er the generator for the pool. Up the steps carefully. Hold on hold on, hold on, hold on. How far can you swim? Like a brick. Hello. Wait a minute, just wait till daddy's got the money. Two adults please and er two children. That's two pound thirty two please. Mummy, what are discount cards? What are discount cards? That's erm special offer innit Yeah well that's . Thought that was yeah. I could see the oh they have got armbands Carl. Got goggles as well. Do you need any fifty pences? Erm Erm we've got one each I think haven't we? Need any or not? Can I I've got a er I've got a, I've got erm a couple of fifty pences, that's, I'm alright for those thanks. Now er they've got goggles Goggles yeah. They've got goggles. Well we definitely need a pair of armbands. Well we need a pair of both If not you can always borrow armbands here if you want. Can you? We can lend you a pair of goggles if you don't wanna buy them. Yeah. Oh well we do need to get some armbands for Andrew I think whatever I think we should buy the armbands cos Chris erm Andrew needs them Well can we buy a pair and, and perhaps borrow the goggles. Yeah for this week. And perhaps we'll, we'll buy the goggles another week Robert. armbands That's No I'd like, I'd like you to get me some tomorrow Getting you some armbands then Oh goody! that means Becky gets Are all the goggles the same? That's if they've got any. Oh I'd like you to go and, into town and get me some tomorrow What do you say? Thank you. Armbands, swim chair? Yeah. Those two different sizes, how Oh it's for this one. There's ones for six to twelve years, they're like big or there's, they look like real small Erm it'll be the six to twelve Six to twelve, yeah. There we are. And can I borrow a pair of goggles, is that okay? Yeah if you ask when you go round Right thank you. Carl I'll see you up there, alright? Right okay. You take the boys and I'll take Rebecca. got, have you got two twenties?if you've got two twenties you might as well buy them. What? them Well what I'm, we'll go to a sp how much they are in a sports shop. Okay. We'll see you in there. Where's Chris? Has he gone in? Where's Chris? Come on then. Can have we got the goggles? Where's Chris? No, gotta ask for them when you get inside. Oh right. He's probably gone in. Oh well there he is holding the door look, thank you, great Chris, come on. Daddy's got two Here you are then. This'll do, over here. Let's get these down here now hang on Andrew, put your coat and stuff up there for now. Do we just le do we just leave them and not put them in a locker? No. Oh no, just put them up here. Cos now that we're in the swimming pool getting changed I'll turn this off. a lot of myths surrounding Down's Syndrome children as to what they can and can't do you see and er Well it's good to see them in the bath anyway having a good good old splash about, you know? Yeah. She said she hasn't, I said do you bring her every week? She said no she said we haven't been for ages. That's what she said to me. Cos I said I'm really surprised, I said I thought you must come at least every week cos she seems to be so confident in the water. She said she hadn't been for a while and erm then she said they didn't really know, they wondered how she was gonna get on in the water. Ah no she's fine. Yeah cos they're not supposed to, you see there again, Down's Syndrome children are not supposed to be able to float. Well she was doing a Well she had some floats on I know but Well she's only a tot isn't she? Mhm. No I thought, cos I, I remember reading erm I think it's her father who owns one of the bookshops in Woodbridge and he had this book on display, you know he sort of erm advertised it if you like and it's, it's properly published and everything but he had it as a a book available in his store and there was an advert in the Anglian about it, and I remember reading that she said er that he said er cos it was his daughter who had the child, that it totally knocked them for six. They never dreamt that it could happen cos she wasn't in the risk age group or anything, it just never crossed their minds that it might happen and they were totally well they just didn't know what to think. Was there any explanation of it? Really shocked. No. And she's o she's gone on to have a, a normal little boy you see? Just a fluke of nature. Ah. She's, she's younger than me. She's, she's in her twenties and theoretically the, the risk is She lo she looks older. Yeah but she's not, she's in her twenties and theoretically She looked about mid thirties I thought. No she's not. Not as old as that. I think she was Oh look mummy ah there's the pygmies. They've got see they've got their tether. Mummy Yes yeah. And er the fact that she's obviously gone on without it was awful, when she was pregnant the second time round she didn't make a big thing of being pregnant but you could tell she was pregnant but I never quite liked to say to her just in case they had the amnio amnio whatever it is and decided not to go Aye they would have done won't they? ahead you'd, yeah but you can't have that till sixteen weeks and by then you sh you know you show don't you? Anyway she's had a little boy and he's fine, he's got a cold that's why he wasn't in today. That was mum and dad wasn't it? Yeah. Sorry? It was dad who was outside? Yeah dad dad had got the baby outside, yes. I don't know him at all, I've never met him. But I used to So where do they live then? Well I th they live in the catchment area for Fram because she used to go the Mhm. and I think she sa I think her little daughter goes to the Rainbow thing Kate doing her largesse, you know let the heathens in She didn't know who I was obviously? No, no. No I don't go round saying who you are. No. It's nice i it's a rare Right. a breath of fresh air if you like when people don't know. I tell you who else was there erm the lady who used to do caretaking for you at school you know, who had a little girl months before Becca was born. Mrs ? No Monday lady, oh the other little lady yeah oh no the other lady. the lady with black hair. The one whose baby kept on being very very quiet and never that's why she's still quiet and she's still tiny. She looks nowhere near as old as Rebecca and she's a month older. I never saw her. No we no she'd got out the pool you see, she was I didn't recognize her, she said oh it looks like all the family's here and I was only talking to Evelyn and, and I kept trying to place her and it was only when she said oh Rebecca was born a month after cos she's died her hair a different colour , I didn't, just didn't recognize her at all. But erm yeah can't remember what she called her little girl, Michelle I think or Michaela name anyway. But well Evelyn was asking me about reading and writing but first of all she asked did we still go to you see and I said no I sa we s I said we decided it didn't suit him. Oh she said why was that? I said well we had I said I had a bit of a run in with the lady who ran it, I didn't agree that he should be compelled to do singing which she thought he should I said and we had a decided it cos he . Oh she said it's silly making him do that I said er very quickly I said, I said don't get me wrong I said for kids who enjoy going to that sort of thing it's great and fine if it's alright but I don't want anybody accusing me of er Right. causing bad feeling or trying to upset her trade, I mean we know she's rubbish but erm I, I said er I just said well the children who enjoy it enjoy it I said but he never really settled and er we felt that between us we'd got over twenty years' experience of working with children, we reckoned we knew a little bit more about what makes children tick. And er she agreed. Yeah, it's fair enough Sue. Yeah. Well I thought I've gotta be careful that I don't sound too Pompous. erm Know it all. Well no not so much that but, but I'm not, I'm not sure that other lady, the one whose baby was born just after er before Becky you see and I thought could just imagine her being saying going and saying something and getting, it getting moulded a different way, you know? And then I thought oh bugger it, I'm entitled to my opinion and I made the point that Yeah and you have done on more than one occasion it just didn't just didn't suit Chris a bit. Wasn't for Chris. So what did she say? And she said she said well her little boy, Christopher, loves it but he's a quiet child you see he thrives on that kind of thing. And she, he was always quiet when we were at the erm t twos to threes. And er and she said he enjoys it and he goes to playgroup I think he must go to Dennington playgroup cos he's going to Dennington school, and he enjoys sitting down and being, likes looking at books and he's started writing and she said actually she said I'm really panicking because I'm frightened that I might be teaching him wrong and that I'm I said well why don't you pop in and have a word at the school? No I'll leave it I haven't got one fifty I don't think. I've got one pound. Yes I have got one fifty. Here you are. I've got it, it's alright. Well have a check in the bag. Have a check first, if you think they're good we'll have Are they one fifty? One fifty a bag Oh look at the horse Are you gonna u can you use all of those or is it too many? No no cos if nothing else the goats will Mummy can I go out? chomp them Can you carr I'm, I've only got hang on, see if I've got no you Hang on. can't get out Andrew. Are you su no don't get them because you have to Sue, look, here No but fifty P I've got fifty P yeah. Yeah I've got one Mummy I didn't say I wanted to get out, it was Christopher. Yes, we said that. Hang on, hang on. Have a look. If they're good we'll get them, if they're not don't get them. two four six eight yeah they look alright Carl Do you want a bag? Yeah. Hang on I'll give you a hand. Okay. Right, thank you. Hang on, you're gonna have to move that swimming bag because I'm gonna put a bag of carrots in. Which one do you want Sue? That one's got a big fly walking about in it. Have one of these further u I've put me one fifty down so have that one Carl, that's nice, they're nice and firm. They're firm. Hang on. I mean some of them further down will be a big wiggly worm but the goats will goats will eat them. Right? See we've got one or two soft ones in there but Let go. as I say the goats will eat them. That's one of ours, that's just, yeah. Put it in the back and, and that one. Right. Put them in. Pop that one in, there we go, and I'll definitely Right. Cor they're heavy. There's a good twenty five kilos here I'd of thought. Well the thing is give some mum. I can feed the goats on the ones that are not Hold them safe. What's it like? Nice. Lounge, dining room, study. Is there? Yeah there's a study. Must be a small study then. No it's about the size of our bathroom and toilet put together. Is it? Study's there. Well where's their bath and toi upstairs is it? Upstairs, everything will be Not much garden though is there? Er there's quite a lot, it goes round the side, round that way, it's a big L shape. Yeah. And you've got all this round the back here. Yeah. I don't even know how much it is. Oh yeah garden. Yeah there is. I mean alright the pub garden's next to it. Yeah there's that, yeah there may be noise and pretty though No well I don't know though, there wouldn't be much Oh look at that Oh trust Andrew . Trouble is you'd And the pub, there's nobody in the pub look. it's your catchment area again though isn't it? Well Brun Brundish is Wilby. Aha. It's Wilby catchment and Stradbroke. Yeah. Look there's the garden. Oh yeah. Is that ? No. No. But I just wanted to see what it had downstairs, it was typically new, it's a, a lounge not much bigger than the one we've got now erm in fact I think the lounge and the dining room area was probably a little bit smaller Yeah. but a bigger kitchen a downstairs loo er They probably have a bathroom upstairs as well Y oh yes it would have, and er a small Well move then, is that what you wanna do? Ooh hell's teeth no. Couldn't afford it, and we couldn't sell our house Sue. I don't think anyone can sell anything at the moment. I think something like that one could be going for about eighty five thousand. Sorry? Well it's been gone, it's been built for a year er er er er it's been up for ages hasn't it? Yeah well they, they sold it at the wrong ti I mean they built it the wrong time didn't they? They missed the boat. It's nice It's just its location but it's nice. Perhaps we just need to decorate and then Yes. we'll feel better about ours. Ours, ours has got a bigger garden. I don't like that one because of its proximity to the pub. Yeah well Robert said why have we stopped so I said I think we're looking because it's a typical new house and daddy wants to see what typical new houses now offer. I just wanna see for some ideas Robert really, you know? It was Andrew who asked that Oh Oh was it? Sorry I thought Just i ideas for decoration and Yeah. I'm gonna have my kitchen rose pink I've decided. I think the toilet needs to be, well if I do the toilet this week the bathroom. The bathroom, sorry, the bathroom. Well the toilet needs doing any Yeah only needs to be done white doesn't it? If I do that the bathroom and the toilet matching and then your room needs doing. Oh we're gonna do our room at Easter time I think. Yeah, we should I've got that targeted I think for an Easter job. we won't have time to do it this holiday Robert, there won't be time The bathroom and the, and the kitchen. And I'm working in March. I don't know what I'm doing April yet but I'm definitely working in March. Yeah nobody knows what's happening April time as yet. Cuts into the, it cuts into the we the weeks, I mean that sounds terrible, I'll be,you're only working a few days but it's surprising the teaching days I do really, that really does cut into my time at home. Not that I mind but it just means things like painting and decorating what you looking I'm just trying to get me bearings. I'm sure Brundish is Wilby. Oh it is. That's a nice one . Always be terrified that that was gonna drop to bits wouldn't you? It's like that one at Debenham. Not for sale or anything is it? No, no I just noticed it, it was empty. And you're miles from anywhere here. Well it's er I mean look at me now, I'm, I'm oh I can walk in to Fram You can get in. but I can get in to Fram and if I need to go to the doctors I can get to the doctors which unfortunately is, is necessary our children. Yeah we've gotta look outsi all over. Are those carrots alright Andrew? I think they're looking at all the Aha. Oh I can give a couple to the goats as well Oh yeah. that's nice . I don't know where to put them tethers . They're chewing up the lawn but Carl there's nowhere else to put them at the moment. Mm no I know. When I ask for a carrot now mummy I, I'll just have a big feast. I think I'll make a shopping list today otherwise I'll get to Colchester and I won't remember what I want tomorrow, you know and I'll be kicking myself cos I'll forget Yeah. and I've got to get Chris's birthday present. Get some school trousers for Robert Yeah. and get some clothes for Rebecca. Bet she's asleep is she? She's . She enjoyed herself. She liked her swim Is sh are her eyes open? Yeah, just about. She really likes her swimming now, she She can st she can st yeah. She really does like it. Stay awake till you get home. Bless her heart, she's tired now. Stay awake. don't you shout for her you know what cos I haven't got it It's on the floor. Yeah has one now. The one that she had at the pool she threw on the swimming pool floor in disgust cos I put her back in the carrycot thing Yeah Ev Evelyn was saying oh will I, she said will you see me back er she said will I see you back in in the twos group? I said oh not yet, cos she could start at Easter, her little one will be two then, Simon, he'll be two. Oh and Rebecca won't start t I said Rebecca's not two till September. That's a nice bungalow. That's, I think that's the one that's sold eighty five eighty five thou that's gone for, or it's got a sale agreed on it. Yes Sorry, you were saying Pat We come back from and we're in the car and erm they're talking about guns see, I said well you ou , you know our Harry was R S M like you know, I said you wanna ask Ha Ha Harry I said been a soldier all his life. He's not you know. I said he was he said he's not dead yet. Ha ha clever. Clever isn't it? Yeah it is isn't it? Went up to, went up to and Barney got a rabbit. Did he? Yeah, picked a rabbit up and we had to chase him, get it out of his mouth. Was it still alive when he No it was a dead one. Robert caught, caught Barney in the end. We had to really clump him to get it out of his mouth. He killed it though did he? I don't think so. You think it was already dead? That was already dead. Oh Chris, you got some bullets? Yep. What have you bullets what have you done with those then? I polished some of them Brought them over our place. with brass polish. Use them as false teeth? No didn't you Christopher, went down the slide in the swimming pool? Somebody's it's somebody's birthday tomorrow but I don't know whose it is. Mine. Is it your birthday tomorrow? tomorrow. Whose birthday is it tomorrow Christopher? I went un he went under the waterfall with me didn't you Chris? Under the waterfa oh by the way he fell and hit his face on the concrete over the caravan, he's got a bit of a grazed nose. Yeah, he tripped over. Ha ha ha ha ha. Oh! So have you had a good time then? Yeah. Christopher's had a really good time so have I so has Robert. We went to Leisureworld Is that the swimming pool? We went down the tubes, the blue one is erm just as good as the green one, the blue one longer. Mhm. You go whoosh What's it full of? Full of water? Yeah. It's not full of so you're just going straight through water, just so you're sliding Mhm. Hello. Hello. Baby baby oh! Ooh! Ooh! join the army. And then me guns There was a hell of a fight with erm I said. Of course he has he says, he's not dead yet. There was, I was gonna say there was a hell of a fight going on here the morning we come over yours between Christopher and Andrew, and I went in to sort out just in time to hear Christopher say well I'm having all GrandPat's money when he's dead not you . will he? Oh thank you very much Mars each for you there. Kit Kats. Oh thank you. That's your Mars they've had Cor thank you. We watched Robin Hood King of Prince of Thieves last night. Oh. On the video. Yeah, Carl got the video out. That was good. Oh Well while the while the kids were out. I didn't fancy it but that was quite good. Mm mm Gory wasn't it? So I'll, I'll pour this tea out then. Yeah we, we So you're having a quiet day tomorrow then? Yeah. How's Steve? Alright, yeah, alright. Has he heard any more about his Yeah erm wait a minute we got a letter from this morning to say that erm wait a minute, erm they'd had a communication from Mr Mhm erm saying that erm they ha that h he had been in touch with her and actually she got in touch with him he said peculalaly peculalalary Peculiarly =liarly yeah and she'd got in touch with him. So Steven said now what do you make of that? I said well I think she realized it came to so he's definitely booked the high court so she's, she's done nothing about changing him or anything like that. I said I reckoned she got her oar in first and thought I'm gonna No I I should say her solicitors has told her you, you know, you've got to tread carefully you're on a sticky wicket. Yeah. Very. Yeah. Yeah because she's made all sorts of wild accusations hasn't she about him? I know yeah. Yeah He reckon she actually got in touch with Martin. so when's Behind you Sue. Oh I thought he weren't available till the third of March. He's not. Well he's gone away but he will be back. He's not available until the third of Oh that's, that's, he's on holiday but they've had a Yeah but a communication from her to the office had they? She's already been in touch with, with him, a letter to Oh I see. to erm what's his name? secretary Yes. Oh that's, that's what I meant. should imagine, yeah. Erm and he is definitely booked you know for the high court and all of that, he's Oh so we'll see what er transpires this time. Absolutely. She'll try the approach of oh well I'm sure you meant well but it really wasn't in Richard's best interests for him to have overnight access and all this Mm and all this lark. That's what I reckon she'll try for. Yeah, yes that's why But he's not daft, Martin, anyway. No no. He'll see straight through it. Mm. Well she's already shown her true colours to him hasn't she ? Yeah. Mm Yeah. He know what she's like doesn't he so Yeah. I went up Sainsbury's the other night for a pint of milk cos we're short of milk. Oh god yeah the boys drink a lot. Ah Robert come with me. And a pint of milk's thirty eight pence I think it cost me two pound thirty eight up here. Aye. Well you must of end up buying No he he spoil them he absolutely ruin them. Do nothing with them. Milk chocolate buttons, drinks and all some of them, some of them he said, I forget what we took we got them a bottle of Coke didn't we? Weren't it? Yeah. Oh she said they do sort of milk chocolate drinks, thirty five pence each see. Yeah milk chocolate drink Ooh Th th we went in the in the Carriers today and they didn't have a ca er a er drink each and a packet of er crisps No? They had two drinks each and two packets of crisps didn't they? Two rounds mate. Here you are then dad, there's a cup of tea there Cup of tea there. there's a cup of tea mum. get off soon. First I had a a Lucozade then I had a How much you gonna do? a pineapple drink. He's got dog to walk tonight cos we couldn't bring him cos the car was full of gear. Yeah. Junk. We brought wellies, everything back. Yeah. Daddy But we were so lucky, it was beautiful up the woods, we played football Nice in there, yeah. lovely warm sunshine, dry under foot. You know, I mean if that had a been sleet and I know. Well we said that was mild today as well. We said exactly Look. Yeah I've seen it, he showed it to me on Friday. We erm we Gonna take it into school? cos we went over to I've gotta take it back. there's a town to die in, on Where? Into school? its feet. What? No that's where I made it. Really dying on its feet, all the new shops It used to be it used to be half dead that town I've got to take it back cos it's got to go on display Well . Well I tried to get her dungarees again you see. I mean I, we didn't specifically go for that, we also went in to You wanna look after it then, put it away carefully. Yeah. got a bit of shopping and did various other things erm I think it will be okay if it stays there where the old erm that's where we got their drawers from Oh aye Where the old th they're nice actually, they're serviceable. The ones I liked were polished walnut but they were eigh Satin wood. S oh well, close thing. But they Not even close. Not even the same. they were nice but they were er Walnut's harder and shinier than satin wood. Plus they eighty odd pound. were broken at the top. we wouldn't have got them anyway, they were too dear. These were Knocked a fiver off didn't she? Yeah, they we got them for thirty so mind you So you like those drawers? Yes I like them. Thank you. pay sort of forty nine, fifty pound from M F I and these are older ones you know. Thank you for Oh look at these socks. Clean on this morning, I might add. I know. I, I've done their washing but they've got Yeah a pair of jeans in there which biscuits so they're really alright, their jeans, to use again. Yeah I know Do you know what I mean? Oh wait a minute you. So all the stuff in their bags is clean, and all they've got is what they've got on Here you are. to wash. Here you are. The rest is clean. Daddy I've got ninety six bullets pieces and Cutting a tooth. She's been bits of bullets and bits of bullets. very unsettled. Excuse me And polished them with erm polish, did you polish them with some polish did you? Yeah. D my best one is the one that GrandPat brought over to show us. Yeah. I polished that one as much as I could with erm Brasso I'm a bit disappointed, I want pink. It's er a cleaning rag. No it's, it's not, kind of like cotton wool But when I went down to the shop Yeah,abs yeah it's got sort of polish already in it has it? Yeah they had an offer on you see in a tin. and it was five pound off the It's for polishing brass. Mhm. Ooh. No Becky stop it, leave your foot alone. Hurry up. Who's in there, Andrew? Yeah. You just can't keep track of them Sue . The thing is I'm, oh you can't worry because there's so many people watching well they was all wearing their clothes standing there, with poles with big round rings on pulling people out. Frightened him to death. Said he hurt his foot Frightened him to death it did. But he wanted to go. We went down we went down both shutes. Yeah well you don't know till you try these things do you, whether He'll go down the shutes alright. He surprised me, he was the first one down them great big shutes. Andrew come, just come out as large as life . And Christopher went, he went down the slide we, we just left him on his own. And then I sank and then I came up again. Was it good was it? ? I came up when I sank. He came up when he sank . Just as well innit? Yeah. Came up when he sank. Went in the jacuzzi. Nice and warm was it? hot,eight eighty degrees. Oh good. We had an hour and a half in there. Well we had to queue to get in. Yeah dad said on the phone. It's lab labour intensive isn't it? Probably that's why that's so expensive. But er normally we walk in. Mm but when you think they say ooh it'll never pay for itself, god it will, people are just tr Well it won't. Not wh Once the novelty wear off. That won't you, you're only gonna get people like on, on half term th look you've gotta try and pay for yourself over twelve months which Yeah. Yeah that's it you see It's very rare that a swimming pool do actually I mean at Stra Stradbroke are now doing a half price and of course we, we only pay, for all of us to swim on Sunday I think it was two forty something. Well for us just going here it's thirteen pound it cost me. Yeah. Well now it will do you see, that's the difference. And that's fifty P off cos over sixty, I said I'm over sixty so she knocked fifty P off. I'm gonna try it next week. Well yeah we, we usually go erm These are two fifty each to go in. Yeah, it's a lot innit? It's a hell of a lot It is for little ones, you know when you think Hour and a half you get for that. Mm. See when we go normally there's no time limit, but busy week you have a we had the orange armbands, you, you trade your key in for an or orange armband Mind you hour and a half is plenty innit? And then you've got this disk on the wall which change colours,you know Yeah. Yeah. And when your wedge comes up, and that comes up flashing orange the bloke hits an old Yeah well what happens if you just get in at the end of your or a at the time before they change the band, the colours? Well but I mean we, we No cos I've seen this done before right, I mean it's over a certain time, but if you go in at the end of the time Yeah. and you, you, you No for a while it's flashing the orange. Yeah but you don't, you never, if you get I know what Carl mean if you, you get five minutes before it's up you never get the same amount of time as anybody else. I've always thought that's a, that's a totally unfair system. It's best with the, what, the best way I've seen it is with a numbers disk. Say from one till ten cos they're the early ones and then they get a certain time, then your numbers eleven to twenty Yeah but what I'm saying is erm the orange disk was flashing for a long while before the buzzer Yeah but it's flashing just as long for those who bought it first time round, isn't it? Yeah. Mm. You still get extra, you still, you don't Anyway it's plenty of time Oh of course don't forget yester yesterday erm they allow so many in so you'd all be going in at the same time Sa oh well if it's the same time, yeah i in at the same time, yeah. providing you're at the same time. Well yesterday because of the long queue it happened that way. Normally if you go in I suppose normally they,bother normally see. No I was gonna say normally if you don't, if there's no time restriction They, they, they actually tell you in the queue. She'll say right going in she'll say right the next lot will be going in in er ten minutes to one which may be a quarter of an hour's time like, you know, so it's all timed they don't let a few there's a the second go in. Yeah, mhm. Oh I see. Well they have to won't they cos otherwise it'd be just Mm. And er it weren't uncomfortably crowded in there. Oh no that's oh no that wasn't uncomfortably crowded. You know I always think oh god what Is it clean? Oh yeah very clean Oh absolutely yeah. And I, I like the idea of the lockers and that you know th none of the changing rooms have got erm locks on the doors, they've got bolts on the inside obviously Yeah. obviously, but you, you've, you've Ooh locker. Oh that's You lock your stuff in Like Stradbroke innit? Yeah Stradbroke's like that you get it back at that end, yeah. Do you have like a band with a key on it? Yeah. Yeah Yeah Yes, that's what they do at Stradbroke. But you just normally you can put that band on and swim with it. Oh we Yeah But when, when it was busy, when it's busy That's what we do. Yeah, that's what we do. You're losing your Well I think I'm gonna go to the loo and then we'll go. You're losing your drawers girl. Oh my god. the rubbish home Pat might want it for storage you see. Yeah. Oh I'll stick it in the garage you never know But if you don't need it get rid of it. I mean I could always yeah I can a Mummy What? we want to talk to you about erm No, no we're, just hang on a minute No we're having a cup of tea and a sit down. We've been busy all day. All day. You sound like the dog. she's pointing at the jar of sweets. Yes, she wants No That's what she's doing What do you want? she's pointing at the jar of sweets look . What do you want? She wants all them jar of sweets. You want mum? Yeah all those She wants all them jar of sweets mum to me. No! No she can't have them, they're too hard. That's what she's pointing at. Oh well you can't have those, sorry no. Can't she have a little piece of Mars? She's got one there. No she, I'll leave her for a, she's gonna have, have her tea in a minute, she can have a bit after her tea. let you have one darling. Soon. Soon. Ah! Soon. When you've had a snooze. Wanna dance? Susan has a snooze. Snooze oh oh a snooze. Christopher told me. They ate boiled eggs for breakfast . Ah Boiled egg. Do you want some more eggs? I've got some more if you want some, Steven ate some of them scrambled. He said I'm starving, I shall passout. I said scramble some of them and I'll make you some chips cos we had shepherds pie yesterday and I did them a few chips with it as well. And mum mum you know what, we went Do you want a few more eggs? when that, and when it was cold, we Did you? Yes. Thank you. Did you want some eggs or not? Do you want some more eggs? Yeah if you've got us some there, lovely thank you. Yeah you see I've got one quite a good broody, you see, Noisy. They've all had a bath last night, two nights running they've had a bath full of water. He'll be ready for bed normal time, it's a he'll be in bed by about eight o'clock tonight. But they won't need a bath or anything. I'm gonna put the, I'm gonna put the news on at twenty to six and they can watch Star Trek at six o'clock. Ah! Ooh! Star Trek. You like Star Trek don't you? GrandPat, daddy did you know, we had these t Oh the yucky bathroom, don't look at the bathroom. GrandPat we had these two great big baths daddy. Have you, with full of bubbles? Yeah! Yeah about this deep. Well I've changed the colour in the bathroom you know, it's white now. Not about this deep they've had they've been out two days on bikes , borrowed John's children's bikes and bikes and they've been all round Well I was gonna bring their bikes across this time and Sue said don't bother because Borrow John's. they have a an arrangement where they bo i is it alright for that though? Oh yeah. They do he doesn't mind? No he doesn't mind at all. Yeah I know cos Robert was asking for his So I I, I, I went in today I said, this morning, I said to John I said I said thanks for erm now you see Steven had arranged to video erm Laura's birthday party today you see John this morning I said and thanks for lending the bikes John and that, he said that's alright pal. I said oh I said by the way Steven will be round this afternoon to video. Ah he said, smashing, I thought I'm giving a little bit back see? Yes. Steven said oh no it'll be embarrassing, no I won't do it. I said no, I'm not, I'm not doing it for that reason I said I'm trying to you know thought to myself we'll give them something back. Steven didn't mind doing it did he not? No he That's great. That's great that is. Daddy erm you know GrandPat told us not to go on our backs shutes. I went on my back on both of them. And it wasn't too bad. You come quick off them though if you're not wondering if you're not watching what's happening you come off sh time to watch your speed , do you Robert? No. It was okay. Is it like that one that was at Felixstowe, that long slopey one, is it? No it goes right out the building. This one goes right out the building, round and round and it drops down, phew then it goes up. It's a hell of a thing it is. Cleverly designed? And how deep's the water when you land in it? You go under it. You go right under. I don't I, I go sshh and I just shoot out and then I just swim to the edge, I don't go under. I always go under Even when I'm lying down. I do, I always go under . How do, how can you lay on your back and not go under boy? Easy. I lay on my back. Yeah well you must go under when you go in the water on your back. What? I don't. Have to watch you next time you ha See you next time in, I will. Yeah. Yeah I reckon he's cheating. He only said af when we come out of there said let's pay and go in again. GrandPat did something wrong I suppose when you went down like a when he's lying on his back because you don't go down there very very fast. I bloody did. I did. I nearly didn't come up again neither, they was coming after me they were. I had no idea where I was the first time They went alright, Andrew went down alright. I said to Andrew do you wanna come down with me first time ? Aha. No he said I'll go. And I'd be quite wouldn't say frightened mind Yeah I bet . it's quite a thing you know, to I've been down both of them. Yeah. Both lying on my back. Yeah the rapids. The blue one's the they hooked you out the rapids twice didn't they? Yeah . Out of both rapids. Did they? Yeah. Cos once er I mean about the s third time the, no the first time I went in the f in the rapid that was all That's gotta go in the kitchen Robert when you've finished. Yeah. Erm er it was current well you just sort of sw swam round in it and you could get to the side easily. Oh. But the third time they had turned it up so it kept on going big waves so I I missed the steps so the erm one of the lifeguards Gran daddy we need a new lightbulb. Oh again. brought, brought one of those padded things sort of orange things and she pulled me to the steps Daddy daddy we need a new lightbulb. and the second one open which went right outside the building and came back in again erm I've just hoovered in here Rebecca. I was going on with it, all the bumps were okay but when I was actually inside the building again I hung on to GrandPat to get to the steps but my hand slipped so I was going round with the current so I tried to hold on to the orange thing that they had put there but I slipped off that and I kept on going round and the lifeguard gave erm me and somebody else a hoop and we both grabbed onto it they stand outside. and she, he pulled us to the erm steps. all outside, all on the edge there they've got these lifeguards in bloody weatherproof clothing like you know Well they have to be don't they, yeah. they've got woo wooden poles with hooks on to hook people out cos they, you don't, once you're in that water you, you don't stop you know, you can't decide not to go . Well that's it you're aw You go. That's like the rapids without the boat Yeah. it's just your body going round, you've, you go everywhere, arms, legs the lot. It's not painful though? Apart, unless you do it bloody right it is. Cos I was trying to keep out, it's too much for him, he's It can be it can be painful. And I was trying keep, make him keep his head up. You're kami you're kamikaze I was trying to keep his head up. Cos he went over lovely, he was sitting there and I came up Erm daddy bang and cracked me leg. the first bump you go over Go and shut the toilet door, the first erm hump you go over it's just a little one toilet Robert? like that, whoop and then the second one you go whoop and down a bit and it's, all the water splashes you in your face and that's the same with the fi third one. Sprains your back does it? And then the Cor yeah Mm fourth one is just like the first one. And then the next one you come to is the last one t that actually takes you into the building. It goes up and straight down l and you can't stay up erm in the water, you go straight under and you don't find yourself in the middle erm of the pool where it actually comes in you find yourself being pressed against the wall by the water pressure So how do you get out then? He's got asthma. You have to swim to erm Yeah I know he's asthmatic. have to go and have a spray. to Dr you have to erm swim to the steps Ooh at the step. You had a good time though? Yeah but instead of me swimming to the steps No you can't my darling, you've just had a piece of and I went around with the current. Oh you porky girl. You'll do alright, you're okay, you're still here. Don't sit on Rebecca's cup. oh! Yeah we know they're there but they're the wrong kind for you darling. You can't have them can you? No they're not for you miss. The word is the rest of those are in the caravan actually in one of those little square boxes. Is th ooh I'll know where they are then. Right Pat, I'm ready when you are then. cheerio boys. Bye GrandPat, see you Bye bye Bye darling. Give me a kiss. Give me a kiss. Thank you for having us. kiss. That's okay love. GrandPat Yes? thank you for spending all that money on us. And I'll see if they're good boys That's alright and work hard at school These mummy if they're good boys and work hard at school Yes? they can come for another little holiday at Easter. Lovely. Good, cos that means I can get this er these two rooms painted. Well, and if it, if the weather's Daddy fit we might caravan. Daddy. Smashing, we shall see. cool you down We'll see mummy. No do you wanna hand Yeah do you want me to carry that Bye bye sweetheart. Can you grab hold of her Sue. Sue What? Bye bye. Bye bye. Come on, you're gonna have to grab hold of her cos I'm gonna have to move this Yeah. Come on then sweetpea. Bye bye. Bye bye. Bye. Don't slack. Bye bye Where's Andrew? He's upstairs. Bye Nan. Bye bye. Cheerio Andrew Bye. Cheerio Andrew . cos I know I put them in What? Don't forget Ooh! Robert come and carry a chest of drawers round will you? Well he can get a pair of shoes on. Oh hang on, I'll just put my feet in these Go on then. Bye, thank you for having us. Can you carry these two? One these are your old chest of drawers you see, if you go round the back. Yep. Where do I go to? Well the car. Oh right. Can you manage? Just take your time. Suppose so Go on Robert, off you go. Yeah. Bye Toby. Let him out Sue. Let him out for a roar round. Alright? Yeah. Bye Toby. Can you manage? Which way you going, this way? Yeah, okay. Get out the way you stupid dog. Sliding off innit? Yeah. Shall I take a bit of it? Hang on, we'll just carry it straight where we are. Gonna carry it straight where you are? Right Yeah. No leave the drawers in. I've got the light end again here. Mind it's got, it's got some drawers in, deep drawers you know and you I, I wonder whether or not you've always I know you've always said if you had er stuff like this Oh yeah if you don't find use for it you can chuck it out. Ouch! My foot . goat. No it's the goat, it's on Sue's. That's the goat trod on me foot. drop the seats down Oh okay. You don't want any more carrots do you? Carrot cakes. Andrew leave it down. Shall I put this down here? Right? Yeah put it down there. Right-y-oh. It'll go in there won't it? I'll drop the seats. Ah right. Okay. It's only a teacup in that old grey bag from the caravan, that's all the I'll move that and that. Bye bye. Rebecca Rebecca There you go, put that down there. What are you using them for? He doesn't know yet. I might use them, might not. Bye bye. Might not use them at . tomorrow. Dan'll telephone you in the morning. Ah leave the drawers. Excuse me. You've got a new chest of drawers anyway Christopher. You got yours last year. What is, we one sh set of drawers short? No that's all we've got, that's why we had to get some. Yeah. There, there are t there are there are two drawers There's one there. should be three shouldn't there? No there should be four altogether. There was. No two got broken. Oh I see, so you had to replace them Haven't got me glasses on. We used to have two each didn't we? Oh yeah you did but you've got each but they're deeper ones so So there's another one in there that goes in there And that's your lot. and I'll put it in And that's your lot. And we used to have school clothes just piled up there. You used to have school c Mind your fingers, alright? No Chris. school clothes piled everywhere Robert. and I've been trying for ages but there just hasn't been any cos You get in the front Bit more Lovely. Thank you. Well done. Oh if you can use it, use it. If you can't use it just get rid of it It's always something for er bye bye. Bye. Goodbye. Well you might use it for something. So we'll see you when we see you next then. Yeah. Yeah alright then. Whenever that'll be. Right, I'll see you soon. Bye bye. God bless. Bye bye, give me a kiss. He's too busy nosing up there, bye. Bye bye. Bye Nan. Bye darling. Right boys, come on out the way now. Bye. Right we'll let these lot go and we'll go and watch the news if you're watching Star Trek at six. I said they could watch Star Trek at six o'clock. Well I want to put the goats in anyway. Bye. I'll put them in. See you later then . Well they need feeding. See you later. Well do you want me to take some straw in? No they need some grain, they need a bit of grain in. And straw? Put some in? Yeah a bit of straw you can put in as well, yeah. Okay. Well I'll put some of that in now. Well Christopher can put some straw in. Ah ah leave that, leave it, er I've got no, no, no, no, put that back. Put it back. Put it back I don't want that opened. you know you should only need to be told once Christopher. Come on. Open the sh no, open the shed, open the shed door. Open the shed door. Their shed. Shut up goat. Blood and sand, look! Just behave. Come on oy! Have you opened the door?bo bo bo bo bom bom bom bom Right, straw and feed for these animals here. Right. Daddy Having a run about? ? Yeah, let's put this in. There you go. GrandPat where, daddy where is the hay in here? It's in the black bag. Hugh Hugh come on, good boy. Come on Hugh. Oh they're gonna chase us off now, come in Hugh. He's gonna try and get in his No he's not. shut that cos he'll go in the kitchen. come here. Hughie come on. Go on. Get out Christopher. Christopher come out . He's gone in the goat shed and Come on. Have we got a lid to put this on? Get in. Get your butt in Hugh, go on, in you get boy. needs to go up though cos Yeah I know. I've put some hay in. Come on, let's get in. the gate's open shed door Yeah. I've got a piece of chocolate. It's like chocolate, yeah. Right are the hens, oh the hens are alright. Daddy d on my piano do you want to practice happy birthday? Tomorrow I'll do it. I'll do it oh wheel that, Andrew wheel this buggy round will you. I will I will Oh go on then Chris, go on then. I will, I will. What? Put the barrow back up against the door will you? Careful. Coming in? Just put it by the back door. Just put that by the back door. Gone without the eggs ain't she? Oh! Bagged them up ready, yes she said I'll have some. Mm. Never mind. shook that up. Go in. Daddy Do it! Take her in will you What? Is the dog there? I don't know Sue. I'll have a look. No you're not going up smell the bathroom. You can smell the bathroom? Is the dog in? Yes, he's in. Hello. Hello. You're a good boy. You're, you're a good girl. Has that stopped? No it's still taping. It's going on for quite some time. I saved you that put it on his bike. Yeah, so you've had a good time then? Yep. some sandwiches or something. Yeah we've had a brilliant time. I wouldn't do too much. Banana banana sandwiches? Yeah, a couple for each and a, and a, and a chocolate biscuit or something and a drink of milk. Okay. They've had a big meal apparently and they're all thoroughly stuffed Right. Okay your dad was saying. Do you want anything Carl? I'm alright Sue, I'm I'll have me yoghurt then. I might have a a a biscuit and a Can you move those sweets cos they're the wrong kind for her and they just Daddy I'm just gonna do you a banana we had a big, we had a big do you want a and a drink of milk? Have a banana sandwich and a, and a Kit Kat. Erm erm erm Alright. What's this Chris? Oh it's you do fiddle! I was looking I know, you're fiddling with it. It's a big syringe. Here you are. I'm gonna stick the needle in your bot There's too many people in here. Mummy It's for putting the cream on isn't it? That's Robert that is. It's for putting the cream on the cake isn't it? I've gotta make that cake haven't I? Oh a creamer is it? Here, give me it. Have you made Christopher's birthday cake? No not yet. No she's doing it tomorrow. I'll get it done, don't worry, you shan't go without. Quiet. No. No, no, no, no. Here, what are these look? Would you like a bit of bread with it? Oh Rebecca don't shout. There's twenty one of them. There is. slice of bread and butter with it? I don't want it. Oh here you are look I've got pitta bread, how about a piece of pitta bread Erm with it. S small piece each with it. Why?why do you have to have pi that bread? Cos you do. Just keep an eye on her ooh she says. Where's, where's your red bow, go and get your bow. Come on. Go and get your bow, go with Andrew. Get your bow. There's yours then. Here you are. Thank you. Bet your mum's looking forward to having a bit of a break tomorrow. Yeah Your dad's got a What was that rally car then? Well you know this next door neighbour of theirs that's been driving cars all over the place? Oh yeah. Pat and Steven have got the chance to do that tomorrow. Oh I see Daddy!got this. Thank you. What do you reckon? To what? About erm madam c contacting Mr Me me me Oy! She's probably been told to. Show willing for the access you mean? Yeah. Ah ah Are you gonna put her a couple of bits of banana in there? Yeah . Here you are, I'll give her some of this one. Just a little bit in. Mm mm Wait a minute. May I give it to her? That'll do. Scrub out the May I give it to her please? Your hands are dirty. Look at the state of your hands. Go on Andrew, go and wash your hands, you can't possibly eat with hands that colour. And yours. I didn't know they were that colour. You know now. Yeah. Black hands Here you are Becky-Boops. Put your hands, put your arms in. Oh hang on Ooh Ooh Away are you singing? How long is that puppy there you go. Hang on mm mm Mm mm oh yum yum. I think your microwave clock's a bit fast Sue. Pardon? Could be, cos I've reset it ooh sorry Sorry. My fault. Have you washed your hands Robbo? You wash your hands? Been washed? Andrew! You're not old enough to shave yet, just give your hands a good wash and don't leave a mark in the sink. Do you think Robert needs to go to the doctor then? Yeah if the cough doesn't improve it sounds like asthma. Tell you who I am worried about, your dad. Did you see his lips? Swollen? No well they're blue. Blue? That's heart isn't it? It's a sign of bad circulation and high blood pressure. I'll give mum a ring later then. No Sue, don't, it'll just totally worry her. Absolutely. I wouldn't Well have you said anything about ? Well do you think I should? Yes. He might listen to it from you. Give him a ring later on this evening. I didn't know, I mean I would of said say something when you were chatting to him. Oh maybe it might come better from you, from your mum, ah it's a bit personal. I'll mention it to mum then. Give her a ring tomorrow. Has Christopher got his Sue? It's out here. It was on the table. Mummy I wanted another Kit Kat. Oh hang on I haven't given you one yet Chris, hang on. You finished yours? Has Andrew got a Kit Kat? No. You haven't got a Kit Kat though have you? Oh dear, here you are, put your mat, put the mat down there. There you are. First I'm going to start with my Kit Kat. No you don't that's second by the way. You have your sandwiches first. I've never tasted one of them before. Mummy are you eating Rebecca's food? No. Only an ordinary plain yoghurt? Mhm. You've been playing with Laura then Christopher have you? Yeah. Who do you like best to play with? Laura. I think. Her hair's nice isn't it, Laura's hair now it's been cut? Mummy Mummy that They've just moved in recently. er li er big girls I tell you she's got her birthday coming up last today, she had her birthday Oh that's not that's Laura. Laura had her birthday Yeah big girl? Yeah she was five wasn't she? She's a year older than you. Yeah. Mummy Did she have a party? Well I wasn't with her. She's a year and a day Was she having a party Robert? I don't know. I don't think so. Don't think so. That's right cos she's erm Jo is three isn't she? Yeah. Think Jo is three in May. Or is it Amber? No Jo is three in May and Amber will be Two three No Amber is two, Amber was two in December. Cos Amber's older than Rebecca by about erm six months. Don't you don't you fall out of there! Now I'll just Carl I think and put the on. Come on, out you come. Up, there's a good girl I'll take my coat off. Go on then. Robert can you pass my pink bag, it's by her feet please. Just pass that oh god! What's the matter? I'm tired would you believe. Tired? I am tired out Carl, I really am. Here you are look darling It's squished. old floppy, floppy dog look, ah, little dear. I want to put my hat on. Oh what a little dear that is. Right, yeah I have got me camera. Andrew ! Don't argue. Andrew's taken my belt off. What are you doing Robert? Hello Becca. still got, got that pink thing on. Daddy. That's daddy, yeah. Right? Yeah. Do you want a mint? I did and erm back to the party dee de de dee . Do you want me to wear it? Yeah Can you just hold that? Stick it on there then. What on me, on me pocket? Oh or over the seatbelt. Alright. Just tuck it on the seatbelt. Oh god, it ain't fell off has it? No. Is that right? Is that doing it now? It's taping. Oh be careful what I say then. See the tape counter moving there What erm Daddy there's nothing behind. number are you on now? Three A. Nothing behind. Nothing behind. Thank you. I mean she's not coming for it till two, two o'clock is she tomorrow? We haven't really seen anybody have we? No. To do much tape. Too busy. There's two little bits there. We've done a bit. Who's that? Don't recognize her. No. It's a nice old day though innit? Yeah it's lovely. That's really springlike, that's gonna come a terrible shock you know if er the weather turn cold. A false spring Yeah we keep having these though don't we, the last three or four years. I know we do. Well I don't know, have we got springs now? Perhaps this is how springs can be. With all the greenhouse effect and everything. Perhaps this is the new weather system that we've made for ourselves. Certainly changes. Mm. Feel like I should put my sunglasses on, you know. Seeing that she's going off to sleep, I thought she'd like that little dog cos that's furry. She's touching it. Well if she has a good half an hour Yeah, she needs a sleep, she's shattered, she usually has an hour at least in the morning and another hour in the afternoon. She ain't been to sleep yet. Probably cos the boys are back you see. Mm. I know. She, she goes down no problem when there's just erm us at home, you know? Sorry Robert, what did you say like? No you weren't five. I said Were you? skateboard when I Perhaps he was five. It's on red Carl. Just about to go zooming through. Weren't you? Do you know they've got these bulldozers up the other end up near ours. I don't know what they're doing. Well who's the blue van then? I'll have a look as we go. But they've got a digger and erm a couple of lorries, cos I, I looked and wondered what they were doing. But it's, they seem to be in the middle of nowhere, you know, just on a piece of road where there wasn't really anything much happening, opposite the pub. They might just be parking up there. No, they've got a st they've got the diggers moving backwards and forwards, yeah. Practising. Couldn't see what they were doing though. That's hot this mint, innit? Lovely. Yeah. Come on! We can't go yet Andrew, the lights are on red. Is that Harriet behind R Andrew? Pardon? They don't know Harriet. No behind. Yes it is. What did you say? Is that Harriet? Yes. What Harriet ? What's the matter? Oh it's alright . Panic over. She's nine isn't she, Harriet? Ten she is. Ten. She's one of your third years though isn't she? Who is it? Can I do that? Sorry? Hire. that's all. Oh they're digging the road up, what a surprise. They always dig up the road though. Where was that bungalow that you said was for sale then? You said oh that's, that's, that's on the way, on the outskirts of Fram in a close or something. I still like these here, they're too near Terry though. Don't suppose they'd be big enough either would they, for us now?don't ru run over Mrs It's not her. Isn't it? It looked like her from the back. Daddy you know the Pardon? You know the rough Yeah. skateboard? Some of that has worn off. It's all smooth. Oh it will do as er you use it really. You don't use it that much now though do you? Interested in other things now. Nice to see him reading. Yeah it was. I thought that. Well we'll try and get some erm we'll look down, the next time I'm down the library and look and see if they've got any Enid Blyton because that might just be a way in. She was very unfashionable at one time but I remember reading and enjoying her books. Yeah. Alright, she might not have the most fantastic imagination but, for a plodder, it might be erm the right kind of book. No I think you know when this family come out, they come out in force. I know. Think it's one out they're all out. Er they're, they're all sort of in into erm inter-rela yes , they're all inter-related though aren't they? Carl! They have to give way Sue. I know but she she wasn't going to then. Erm only erm cos Stacey's always with them you know. Well yeah like you say they're all inter- related. But erm I think They're all think she's a niece, from what I can gather. Yeah they're all cousins Dad told me, I can't remember what relation she is but she's a relation to them anyway. But she spends nearly all her time with them. Oh. I think she's a pretty child, Stacey. She's got very very pretty eyes. Mummy What? will you remember me in a second? Why? No just say yes. Oh yes here, when you were laughing. Will you remember in an hour? Yes. How could I Will you remember me in an hour? Yes, how could I forget? Will you remember me in a week? Yes. Will you remember me in a year? Yes. Will you remember me in a million years? Yes. Knock knock. Who's there? You've see you've forgotten me already! you've forgot who I am already . You should say Hello Robert, shouldn't I? Yes you should say hello Robert. I knew that one. You didn't know that! I did know that. No Oh look! All the bales, they weren't there the other day. What, these? Well if they were, oh unless he's uncovered them. These have been here for months Sue. Well perhaps we didn't come this way then the other day. Anyway they're nice old bales though, I wouldn't mind a few of them. Well I was looking out the other side cos I was trying to work out where Glynis lived. You were looking at the lambs. We didn't come this way, Glynis doesn't Oh that's right. live along this side. No she doesn't does she? So you're not even in the right place. That explains why I couldn't see where she lived. That's correct. That's quite nice tiles again though. Yeah, nice house. It makes you think of summer dunnit? You know you look out and see the sunshine and the illusion of warmth cos you're, we're in the car. It's warm in the car. Yeah. Be nice in the summer and just put instead of doing her up in all these great big snowsuits, you know? Yeah. Just put a little sunfrock and T-shirt and that hat on, which I know she won't keep on. Yeah. And sandals and no socks, that'll be lovely. I hope by then that I'll have her, you know, that she'll be dry. In fact I had thought once she gets over this erm tooth coming through that I might erm start trying to potty train her. Mhm. See if she's interested, you know, to see if she's ready. I got a few little pairs of knickers there, I'd have to get her some more though. Yeah? Good idea. I ought to start, really really and truly I ought to start buying them in now in sort of double, double packs, you know, get two cos they're expensive to buy. Sort of three pounds for a couple of little, little pairs of knickers and that and that's a lot when you think they when she first starts she's gonna be getting through seven or eight pairs a day . I know. You know, you, you sort of think well have to have plenty in. I've got some up in the suitcase which I can use but Oh I, I'll have a look. I, I still like the Ladybird ones best, they wash nice. Andrew I will remember you remember you in the weeks all the weeks you know what? I would open the door and I would say look that's Andrew. Half an hour later Christopher comes up with a joke. That's one way of getting the joke,yes . Yeah. Have you got anywhere t What's that black paper up there for mummy? Where? There, on the window. Oh somebody took all our lovely parking ticket display off that was keeping the tas tax disk up and replaced it with black tape. It was either Nan or GrandPat. Who was it? I don't know. Probably your dad. Yeah. I never did it. Oh I know you didn't do it. Open your window a little bit Robert, let some fresh air into the back. It's nice Bit more. ain't it? Or even isn't it. That's it. Good lad. Speak posh sometimes. We never did afford our meal did we? We gaily thought oh yes we'll have enough money to pay for a meal . we can't afford it now . Never mind. Maybe we should earmark perhaps my birthday, to go out. Arrange it in advance you know? Mm. I don't like the thought of anybody else come to babysit though personally. No but I know people keep saying oh we'll do it for you but We'll do it,we yeah I know. Well the thing is if I arrange it for May I can ring er talk to mum and see if she'll do it Yeah. and do it that way. I don't know what day my birthday's on this year. Oh it's still Christopher's birthday anyway didn't mean to start talking about mine, only as a means for having a meal out. Oh whee! Mind if he's coughing like that erm don't know. Don't suppose I'd get in the surgery tomorrow now. If it's just a cough to go with the cold then there's nothing they can do anyway, but if it's an asthmatic cough then I can give him some erm Ventolin. That's what he's had before. He is wheezier but He's had it for a week. Mind I hadn't noticed. I must be a terrible mother, I just haven't noticed. You're used to it. Well He doesn't get them quite as frequently now though as he did. No. Not quite cos I mean at one time, when he was Christopher's age god he was never free from cold was he? We'd have a respite of about a fortnight if we were lucky before he went down with the next one. Yeah In fact I remember I took him out of school for nearly three weeks to try and Get rid of the bro ge get his health yeah bronchial infection that he had. Yeah, that's right. And also because I didn't think they were doing that much there with him anyway. I reckon he learnt more in that three weeks at home than he ever did there. Yeah. ring up make an appointment for Dr . He's sometimes easier to get into. Chris hasn't been too bad though, his ears have been reasonable. Is he still on medicine or not? Well it's there. I stopped, I stopped using it, I must admit. Why? Well it made him drowsy for one thing, it kept knocking him out. And er he could hear me perfectly well. I thought well it's there for next time. Soon as th there's any slightest hint of hearing loss I can . In a way though, perverse though it sounds, I'd rather let it get fairly bad and take him back Mhm. because it's only by that way that if, if he's gonna need the grommets or something in his ear then he really needs to get it sorted out this year. Yeah. I don't want him to start in the January and then have to be off school for three weeks because Mm. he's got to go to hospital to have his ears done and things like this, you know? If it's gonna plague him and give him trouble let's get it sorted out this year, even if it means that he has a little bit of temporary deafness for a little while, you know? Oh dear Mummy what's the erm water tower near the erm I don't know what you mean Robert. Oh erm jumbo. Jumbo. What's the erm cinema next to the ? It's not a cinema it's the Mercury Theatre. Where you saw the pantomime? Yeah. It's the Me forgotten the name of it. That's the Mercury. It's a nice theatre that. What was here before they put these up Carl? I can't remember, or was it just a bit of ground? Mm. Wonder if Tamsin had any luck selling her house. What I don't understand is when erm she jumped into the beauty parlour door, how did erm change so quickly? Change clothes. It was somebody else Robert who was in there already. Oh. Yeah it's all all very clever. Yes it's what pantomime's all about. Thinking on your feet, improvisation. It's great. I enjoyed doing pantomime. Oh I wasn't a very convincing Prince Charming though,don't think I'd do it again . You did your best, had a go. Had a go. Wasn't me. I'm better backstage, I'm better writing things and than on the st on the stage. I'm not enough of a strutter anyway. Oh you've gotta be a poser. Oh I, I enjoy You did okay. You I did it. Well I, I enjoyed it when I was at college, I used to enjoy drama there. Not the same as putting on a big performance though is it? No it's a bit different. When you put the and that's the difference about drama at college is you're doing it to please yourself and the, the group that you're in with and ultimately I suppose your tutor but when you do something like a pantomime when you're doing it to please the punters Yeah. I think the bravest thing I ever did in my life was sing solo at that pantomime, I, I think that was braver than giving birth or having my wisdom teeth out . I think you sang quite well. The bravest thing I ever did. You sang quite well for It's one of m it's one of my me memories I've erm hidden, well not hidden away but tucked away to look at in In a later later years, say well okay I, I haven't got a fantastic voice but I did it and that was the bravest thing I did cos I know I haven't Anna's voice isn't much better. know I haven't got a fantastic voice But you sang togeth you s complemented each other when you sang well together didn't you? Yes, yeah we got on alright. It was a good harmony. Yeah. But we're both too feeble by ourselves Yes. I suppose you were, but together it was good. So Mummy how join the pantomime. Well I She volunteered. Mummy just said she'd have a do, she'd have a go. Yeah, I said I'd have a go and before I knew where I was I got got top billing. It was nice. I can never understand why you took that part though. What Prince Charming? Yeah. Well I was offered it and I was flattered. Mm. Oh yeah. I was,i well I You had the talent you know. Yeah but for a newcomer to be offered a er er offered a large part like that you know Well you must have had something then Sue. Gift of the gab probably . Cos cos they invited you back again if I remember rightly. Yeah. But I did the props er on, on the next one round and then we moved, I thought, well I was pregnant anyway. But I used to quite enjoy the erm the, the shows, the s the song and dance routines, they were funny. They were the, all the older ladies and that. We used to have a laugh there doing the chorus. Can you see the sprayer Chris? Look. I think he's asleep Carl. Christopher. Oh move away then. Look. Got all that, the chemicals floating in the car haven't you? That's what I want. That's what I w Oh God Oh look, he said, that's what I want. Did you see it Chris? He hasn't got a sprayer on has he? On his tractor. No. Ah. Got just about everything else. Dee dee dee Oh they've levelled all this off have they? Filled it in. Oh no, still the same. Oh no . Still the same. That's where the used to live innit? Don't know where they live now. They live up erm what's it called? Erm but that's Peasenhall way. I don't have much to do with them. I'm glad to say. I never I never minded them. It's all the the sycophants used to hang round at the school gate Oh yeah, yeah used to get on my nerves. she was very very ordinary and very very Yeah, she was very na well he, he was alright shy when she came to our school. She was almost lost. Felt a bit sorry for her, you know? Well they they were alright You know I said to her I said it's not what you're used to is it? She sort of give me a A funny look? a wry, sick sort of smile. Cos I, I could tell she could place me from somewhere but she couldn't remember where, well th I don't think, she gave the impression that she knew who I was. But I mean I remember Terry going they got erm oh, you know, oohs and ahs. No she was alright, I never minded her and I didn't really mind him. Gone grey, you know? Yeah but Yeah it's, it's isn't it? he's alright. No it was, it was Mrs, Mrs I didn't like . We used to hanging round it's the hangers on that Well it's all these people who say ooh no, ooh superst they're just ordinary people. Yeah. There's nothing superstarish about them. No and to be fair they've never set themselves up to be that way at all, they always wished to be one of the crowd as well . Anyway oh god oh I remember this bit, oh wonder how Ross is getting on. Oh be able to practise what she preaches at long last. Don't know any of them. I'm glad to say. There's the vicar. Oh that's the vicar innit? I remember him. Mr , yeah, Reverend yeah. This is erm Robert, you used to live near here. I knew where it was. Terrific memory that boy's got. I knew where it was. Did you? That's been for sale for some time, long as I can remember practic just imagine you'd be in the catchment area for wouldn't that be fun, there's Jason. Innit? Might be, No it's not. We've been here before haven't we mummy? Oh yeah, several times Andrew. Think of all the, all the times I trudged up here with a pushchair to get Robert to playgroup and to school. Oh! That's been newly sold then. What's he got for sale? Carrots, I think we're alright for carrots Carl . Freshly dug, what else? Freshly dug carrots. That's it. GroBags it's closed anyway. They done that up yet? Oh I'm glad they've done that. Oh look, look somebody's bought that and done it up, thank god for that. This is where you used to This is where I used to walk, along here. Trudge, trudge, trudge. I remember I know. Got bullocks in the field haven't they? look. Oh yeah, and they've put more of a a . It's no good to me is it? I'm two years left here now. Yeah that wasn't too bad, it was this part here. But I think he's tarmacked this since I've been, no he hasn't. That just used to be a mud pile there. Still is. Dreadful. You'd get bogged down and you couldn't use the path and it was always overgrown in the summer. No I can't say I miss this bit. I miss me house. Believe it or not. But I don't miss living next door to that peculiar man, that Yeah. I know. Oh no I wouldn't move back. Infinitely better where we are. Now you put your blooming indicator on! go now. No I can't cos No cows. They're not cows Andrew, they're bulls. Charollais bulls. They look like No they're bulls dear. I assure you. They've got a nice set each . Mm. Put it that way, Charollais bulls. Mummy did I tell you about erm Lot of meat on them. What? No We were playing football it's not rude is it? No. That's alright then. Me and and Nan were playing football Yeah? and we kept on playing and he . It was me and Nan who were playing, and then he, he so then he went out then when said oh why don't you go and get your ? And said because it's pissed. Ah, yes cos it's broken, yeah . And Nan thought he was saying something rude. Thought he was being rude no I explained to her no he told me that yesterday. Yeah. Did she? Did she laugh? Mm? She laughed then? Think so. It's what I never did but I always meant to do What? take a walk down some of these tracks down here. Yes I know. Well I went out to the 's place which is around here It's down there. just down this one by oh of course you drove to get the cot from there didn't you? Erm it was lovely there, really out in the wilds, you know? Very lonely though I imagine. Mm. But er she works part time doesn't she? Erm can't think what she's called now Wendy, that's it Wendy yeah. She works in the bookshop from time to time cos she's only got the two hasn't she, Robin and Stephan. She might have more now. Mm? Might have more now. Mm I don't think so. She hadn't last time I, cos we were talking about er when I say talking I don't mean nastily but the last time I saw Janet I asked after Wendy and she said she was still working and enjoying her job and the children were growing up and she didn't mention any other children so cos her husband works away a lot of the year doesn't he? Mm. What is he,? Oh something to do with surveying I think, or, I dunno, he goes abroad Are we nearly there? Nearly, we've gotta go through Thorpeness first. Yeah. Fort Nest. Yeah, Who used to call it that? Robert. It's Andrew isn't it? Or Christopher. Yeah, can't remember. I remember this place. So you should, it's not that long since we've oh is it two years we've moved? Mm. It's gone quick hasn't it, when you think, you know, when you think of it like that. Think it's just under two years, March the Yeah that's right, two years in March, March the twenty fourth. Two years next month. day trip out of their holiday home. It's quite Oh look there's the duck pond. Oh yeah I remember this place. We stayed here with Na Grandma and GrandPat. That's right just round the corner. Oh yeah you did. Aha. And I remember that they left the key in the house and, and they locked, locked, locked the Oh that's right, yeah, Grandpa did that. He shut the door, yeah. the door Started as they meant to go on for the holiday. Mm. Burglar Bill. Yeah. I don't remember that. climbed through the window the next door neighbour phoned up, got a spare key. imagination working overtime there. Mm. I used to like the car boot sales out here, they were good. But they stopped them last year didn't they? I think so. They, they stopped having them on the, the seafront anyway. I used to like them along there, it was nice cos you could go could combine a a walk by the sea with looking for bargains. Salt spray. Yeah. Tis. It's peaceful along here though isn't it? Yeah it's nice. How would you like to live there then Carl? Yeah I would. Yeah. Oh it's not a house though is it? Well it would have been at one time. Very busy though, you've always got people come and walk backwards and forwards. And of course you do realize with the greenhouse effect anyway the whole of Orford's gonna disappear under water and Aldringham and Leiston. I don't think Aldringham will. You don't? I reckon it'll become, it'll become close to The coast could go further in, yeah. I'll park in the centre. Okay. If I can. Yeah. Have you gotta pay? What, along here? I said have you have you gotta pay him? Shouldn't have to, no, blast. There's one. Just beat me to it. Robert. for Robert. along here. I remember this place. No, no, no, yep yep yep yep yep yep yep yep yep crunch. Dad daddy What? are we gonna have our coats on when we go out? Yes cos it's cold outside. Hello baby! Right, better turn this off. Mm. Sorry? We can pick up recording on the way home again. Yeah, alright,Aldeburgh Goodbye for now whoever's listening signing off I can hear Robert sneezing away in the background. Is that on now? What mummy? No we're back on, we're going home, perished, freezing. I'm gonna look at the paper first. Oh come on, let's, oh don't be so g Oh banana Oh come on! I want to get home to the party tea, it's ten to four. Good I can read it now. Ten to four! That's my birthday number. It is your birthday number, yes . Find me a new job then. A new job? That says find a new job. Oh. There's a car now coming. Mhm. God who's idea was it come and freeze to death in Aldeburgh? Must be yours, I don't think of stupid things like that. Right, nothing behind Andrew? Nothing, I can't see behind. No nothing except a red car. Nice one Andrew. Nothing except a red car. Oh dear . Oh I've got cold bits on me cold bits. Ah. Well I have been warmer. Come on, the car's going slowly. Oh he's cold . He wants to get home for his party tea doesn't he? That's what's wrong with him. Orlando the marmalade cat. New mains are being laid. Pardon? New mains being laid Sue. Oh are they? Look at them old teddies and things in there. I used to have a straw teddy, a stuffed straw te I've still got it somewhere in the attic. Harry it's called . Thought you threw that out. No I don't think I threw him out. Be worth a bit. No he's pretty patched and ancient. S he was Steven's actually so he's pretty old. What's Steven now? Older than you isn't he? He's thirty five is he, Steve? Thirty six. Thirty six this year isn't he? God is he really as old as that? Oh dear. Ah ah ah, I'm cold. Get home by about half four . Yeah. Well I'll just er I'll just well if I go and get the sort of the tea things ready, the party tea can you put Christopher his erm Thunderbirds tracksuit back on? Oh right, the one. And also can you put Rebecca's tracksuit on cos she's got quite a grubby frock on, so you might as well put her jogsuit on as well. The boys look, make sure the boys look reasonably presentable with a clean jumper or something, I'm taking photographs to send up to your mum and don't want them looking like scruffy oh look stop sniffing please. yes. Here Robert It makes your ears tingle doesn't it? Yeah. The cold weather I mean. Ah that as well. There's that windmill on legs look. No, not windmill, house on legs. That's a big house there isn't it? It's well looked after. How do you fancy that one? Think you'd like that? I wouldn't mind that one, that's alright. I like that. It's got enough aerials anyway. It's got enough room as well to put all the bits and pieces, mind you if you had a house like that you could afford to have someone to look after all the goats and the hens . Oh excuse me . Why do I always look at houses that I can't, I've got, not got the remotest chance of owning? I don't know, for the size. You reckon? There's nothing to stop you looking. Yeah I know but it makes you discontented dunnit? Well it makes me discontented anyway. Thorpeness,innit? Good job we put the goats in then, they'd have been cold I think if we'd left them much longer outside. Quite chilly. What do you think about the meaning of life then ? Not a lot at the moment, too cold. Yeah. Me eyes are watering. You're eyes are walking? Watering. Oh Oh they probably are walking at the moment. Yeah. Get over. Well I'm fairly discomknockerated if the truth be told. How dare you use such a northern expression in the middle of the east. Andrew-wa! Andrew-wa, I didn't know we had anyone called Andrew-wa did you? Andrew double U. Andrew-wa He's been a bit er green hasn't he, I think. You what? I think he's been a bit green today. Andrew? Yeah. If anybody. Funny that innit? Andrew ? Well well sort out what's like worried him. I never rememb what did we buy Andrew for his birthday? I can't remember now. Ask him. Andrew-wa Pardon? Andrew-wa Yeah? What did we get you for your birthday last year, I can't remember? Erm Nor can he. er I've forgotten. Well he had his birthday at er school didn't he? Had his party. Oh he had the party at school, what did we get him then? Games? Oh did we get you or something like that? No you got me a spaniel. Oh that's right yeah, the Hush Puppy. That's right, yeah I'd forgotten about him. Why did you want to know? I just couldn't remember . No real reason, I just couldn't remember and it was er annoying me cos I couldn't think what it was. Yeah we got him that Hush Puppy. They've painted that haven't they? That used to be pink. The Parrot and Punch. Mm. There's our old house, hallo old house. Bed and breakfast second left, how to get poisoned more like. Oh I must tell Wynn all about the the letter I had. Mm. Well they haven't retiled it. Or repainted. Or repainted it or redone anything to it. They just use it as a holiday home don't they? Yeah. Oh well, best Up to them. best of British. Laying there at night listening to the tiles clattering off the roof. Yeah that is true. A tractor Chris. Where? Just now coming. My tractor . Oh he's got another little tractor mummy. Has he? Oh. Yeah it's a red one. Oh lovely. I didn't see that. That was my one. I've got four red tractors. Oh is it? Ah. Have to call you Neddy. Yes Robert it is working. Is it recording? Yes it is recording. Mm. Munch munch munch. Mm. Mm my birthday I reckon the cake's really good. It's my birthday. Whose birthday? Me. Mine. Mine. Mine. Mine. I'm four now. Watch it's got pips in that. Mm lovely. Am I allowed one of them? Mhm. Mhm. Watch it's got pips in. I eat them. Mm? I eat the pips. Ugh! The white one and a a He obviously takes after your family. daddy I ate one of these Mine aren't like that. and I ate the pip too. Well I wouldn't in case it gets stuck in here in your mouth. He might grow an orange tree out of his ear. There's enough dirt in it. You might do. Ugh I'm not having one of them, I'm having a banana. Yeah. Alright? For all his gardening he never seems to get any further on does he? No. He's a potterer. Well he's a vegetable grower, he's not a gardener. Mm. Mm could you pass me a chocolate eggs crispies? He's Erm sandwiches. Sandwiches first. May I sandwiches please? Mhm. Having the savories, we're starting on the savories remember. here we are good old Rebecca. Is that nice? Ugh she's gonna tip that out. She can lift that one, you have to put the tab away from her. That's enough! Mummy are you allowed a biscuit? No. No eat some more sandwiches first. Otherwise it'll be a waste. Grandma's gonna give you a ring tonight Mhm to talk to you Christopher. Mm? Grandma'll probably give you a ring Mm. Mm you show what Mummy are are you allowed one of them. No not till you've eaten some more sandwich. You show grandma what a big boy you are tonight and you talk to her nicely on the phone and you Mhm. tell her thank you for the combine. I'll have a sandwich then. nothing else that I don't want. Mm mm mm Can you pass me the crisps? There aren't any crisps. Are there? Oh yeah. Mummy Mm. Four. Catching mummy up. Mm. yet. Studious con yeah, what's the word? Dunno. Concentration, that's the word. Or even looking at it very closely. Filling their faces is the common expression. Nice? A sandwich in one hand and a piece of orange in another hand and some biscuit stuck in your hair for later. Aldeburgh was cold though wasn't it, eh? Mm. God, very cold. Mm what's that? Have another sandwich I think, these are nice. Mm. The beef spread. I'm eating the Dairylea. Oh. Oh. Lovely. Try it. What else can you have mummy? We have Hula Hoops. Mhm. Pass him those Tuc biscuits like them. Want one of those? What do you want? You can choose what you want now. Erm one of them. A cookie Mummy, mummy may I have Can I have one please? Yes you can choose other things now. Alright. I, I'd like a few mini eggs. Too many. About three? Okay. Mhm. Yeah I got my favourite colour, yellow. Alright Chris? Crunch crunch crunch Mm. will all be picked up by the All they can hear. Take three. No he's not three, he take four cos he's four. one more. Come on, one more. Cos it's your birthday you get, get an extra one, that's it. Mhm. That's how many I've got. Mm. Four that is. Gonna have one of these. Mm mm mm Don't forget you've got ice cream and jelly and birthday cake yet. No. Mhm. Mm mm. Can I erm please. Yeah. Thank you. chickens. He dropped one of his eggs. She's Daphne. She walking? Or has she had a lift? Somebody's giving her a lift. Mm. Well Chris may you pass me the Hula Hoops? we didn't have any room in the car did we? What? You've put half your tea on the floor . Again. Again. Look at all this mess here. You dirty beast. Biscuit? Can I have a biscuit? Yes, you can have a biscuit. Can you put the kettle on please dear. Yeah. Mm. Yum yum. Mummy Is that nice? Look at this mummy look at this crisp. Mm. Funny one innit? Mummy Gone mm mm mummy I like these bits. Mm Can I finish these orange things off? I haven't had any actually Robert. Oh They've got pips in. I'm not really bothered now you've handled them, go on. They've got pips in. Do you wanna piece of orange Sue did you say? Wouldn't mind. Robert's put his grubby mitts all over those. What are you doing Becca? Mummy Robert's taking Want some more? mummy look A big bit? I've finished. Here you are Sue. Thank you. party ring. May I have some biscuits? All this cholesterol level. Oh well. Oh it doesn't matter. I've got a one. innit? I've got a O Better use the tooth b brush and toothpaste Mhm. vigorously tonight. These are nice, I like these. Yeah not bad are they? Got a little face on the bottom. Have they? Yeah. I never noticed, I've been eating them. Aha. Oh yeah! There, is it a girl or a boy, that's a boy obviously. Mhm. Are they all the same or different? Don't know Carl. Mummy Mm. Mummy Mhm? I'm alright thank you. Chris could you pass me the Hula Hoops? They're nice. Can you pass me the Hula Hoops? Please. Before he grumps them all. Robert's quiet isn't he? Yeah it's the only time he's quiet, he's not coughing thank god. Daddy who do you think grumps all these? Robert. Robert grumps them all. Where's Andrew? I just said that. Did you? Ha ha ha! They get on your pip these orange don't they? Da da mummy What? Get on your pip Robert Mummy Two rolls finished. They get on your pip. Thank you. I don't know what you mean. I reckon it's reduced flavour. You haven't ate that biscuit yet. Oh forget it. Mummy, caramel. A what? Chocolate Oh. chocolate. Sit down Andrew. Can I have the eggs please. No. Oy! Ooh ooh That's daddy grumping them all. You've got them in your hand. Go on give them to Robert, you mean thing . I'm gonna have a little mini Thank you. You can have some more in a minute. I've got one mummy, you can have this one. I don't want one dear, I'm alright. I'm alright, you alright? Who would like some green jelly and ice cream? Me! Mhm. No jelly please. Robert? Both please. Sue you can take the bowls through. Carl? I know. Yeah. Do you want me to open that tin of fruit? I'm not bothered. No we've had enough fruit They've had that fresh fruit haven't they? I still need another couple of bowls. I had a chocolate one. Yum yum. Shall I put this on a plate? Put them on there now. there now. Mhm. Crumbs! How about that then! How about that then, eh? You just keep talking amongst yourselves. ? Yeah might as well. Still isn't the end of my birthday party is it? Where are they then? Dunno to be honest. There's a long way to go yet. Yeah. I'll give mummy a hand. Andrew, you like my birthday party? Andrew did you know we all get to blow erm the candles out. We all get to blow it. But first it's me on the top. I mean on the bottom. Andrew mind, my combine's behind there the curtain. Look at me Robert I like them. not grumping all these are you? I like them. There is some left. I've only had one of them. Two of them I mean. Oh no no they're being taken away. They are being taken away. No It's the last one, no No. No, you can have it. No! I can't eat it. I've had a lot of them. Sit down. Do you want one of these Rob? Nice. Yum yum. There you go Ooh yum. wait a minute, you need some spoons. And yours is coming Bec. The jelly's funny. Oh it's wobb wobbling. Course it's wobbling. Oh it's wobbling and wobbling and wobbling Wobbly wobbly wobbly. Wobbly wobbly wobbly. Wobbly wobbly wobbly. Yeah it has got a thing but somebody's whipped it, get out dog! Go on hop it. Hop it. Hop it dog. Toby! Clean Excuse me. Mummy the dog's sitting near the table. get rid of him. Go on To, out you go. Kitchen. He's down here. The dog's going round that way. had it the last time. Oh is it my turn? Yes, it's your turn. Oh how boring. How boring terribly. Here you are then. Here you are fatty. Come over here. Come to your mother. Come to mother. Go away. Whose is this? Jelly. Say jelly. Nice? Open. Jelly Ooh ooh that's a bit funny innit? Why? It's a bit of a funny texture for her. Ooh ooh ooh ooh ooh that nice? Well she's coming back for more. you're the only one who's talking. Well I speak to myself most of the time anyway. True. Nice. Is that nice? That nice? Mm. You lot are all Daddy do you like my birthday party? Yeah. Mhm my birthday party. It's n You mean my birthday party. He's silly isn't he? He's not four is he? No. Silly man. He's ninety nine . Enough dear? He's ninety nine ninety nine ninety nine. want jelly then? Jelly. Think you're a hundred and ni ninety eight years old. Oh she found the ice cream Here This, this train looks as if it's sticking its tongue out. This what? Train looks as if it's sticking its it does No that's back of it anyway. oh that's an eye. No it's the back of it that, no it's going the other way you fool. No that's where it went a bit wobbly so I made a hook on it for a carriage . Improvisation's my middle name. Mummy it has magnets not hooks. Well this one's got a hook on it. So there you go. Mm. It's very good anyway. Got the ice cream to eat. Yum yum. Well you can tell it's a train Carl. Now if you'd have drawn it there'd have been some doubt. That's tr very true. Daddy, how old are you? I've forgotten. A thousand and three Thirty five. million million years old. Rebecca's one hundred. Andrew erm Christopher's four hundred Andrew's seven hundred, I'm nine hundred erm nearly nine hundred anyway, and erm Daddy's thirty Daddy's five three thousand five hu five hundred. Mhm. Mummy is three thousand three hundred. Just tell everybody our ages why don't you? Very old. You're not supposed to tell what ladies' ages are. Why not? I know your age. It's thirty three. Yeah but you don't tell everybody. Well you just keep things like that to yourself. Why? Don't want people to say god doesn't she look haggard for thirty three . She does look her age. Just think, I'll be forty soon, god. That's right. Mind you'll be forty afore me. That's right. Here you are sweetheart. Now then mummy's gonna have hers, so there you go. Mm mm No this is mine. Get off. Mine that was nice. Will she eat one of those? Probably. She's gonna have a bit of cake in a minute though. It's mummy's. Mummy's. Mummy's. Mummy's. Mm. Mummy's. Does anybody want any more jelly? Mummy No thanks. No mm Yes please. Mummy so we're gonna have some cake. What? We'll have some cake. Kiss. anyway. Mummy's. No it's mummy's, you're not having any. Mummy's now isn't it? Daddy's. Mummy mummy mummy Daddy I've had enough of this piece. I'm alright. You alright? Mummy Oh alright then. Mm? Mummy's. Mm mm. Here we go then. You alright? Daddy's. Robert Who's been gromphing then? Who's been gromphing then? doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo Shall I go and get the music then Andrew? What we've practising for? Why? I like this green jelly. I like it like slime isn't it? Mummy What? I'll get it. Go on then. Don't have too many of those Christopher. You'll be sick. Don't be sick. Mummy You got a whole year to be Mummy Quiet! You got a whole year to be four in. Mummy. Mummy mummy What? Alright? I'm alright, you alright? Alright. Kiss? Kiss. Give me kiss. Kiss? Well fair enough. Mummy can I save my piece of cake for He's gonna need his face wiped before the candle blowing. Can I have my Leave it. Take these through Robert. Daddy. Okay. Can I ha have my piece of cake later please? You can. Thanks. Go and sit up at the table erm Christopher. Mummy. Alright ? Mhm. Yeah. Mm. There was a candle there. I blow the candles out first. Yeah. Do you wanna go to bed? Put your plates No! Be quiet then. On top of the bottom. On top of the bottom? Yeah, Oh put your plate down there for your cake. I'm just getting Rebecca's bits on mine. We need the match and a cake knife in a minute, won't we? The match, I'll blow it out. Yeah. I'll blow the match out. You can blow the match out? Yeah the match out. One piano. Oh very good! Get off. Do it again then. Listen listen he's playing happy birthday. Happy birthday happy birthday dear Christopher birthday to Hurray! We'll sing it in a minute for you darling. Yeah! You've gotta sing as well Chris. No. I don't have to. Mu Happy birthday mummy I don't have to sing happy birthday do I? Can I get a bit of that mum? No we're gonna light the candles in in here Carl for the Mummy mummy mummy Excuse me. Shall I get the candles? Do you want the curtains shut? We'll get a better photo with them shut Carl, do you think? Yeah, good idea. I know, let's make bit darker. Happy birthday to me happy birthday to me me me I'm going someone's going to get the I know they are. get the Right Wait a minute, don't touch the knife. I'll move the sandwiches. Andrew, will you leave it please. Don't interfere. I'm playing now for Christopher. Wait a minute Christopher. Right now before we start Can we turn light out? I've gotta light it first. Wait a minute we've got to light th before we start everybody's to sing and when I cut the cake, the pink bit is decoration so you don't eat the pink bit but you eat all the rest of it, alright? What pink bit ? No you can't eat it. What pink bit? You can eat the pink bits, mummy says, but you can't eat the rest. Is that right mummy? Erm no, other way round. Stop trying to be funny. What you mean the pink bits on the edge? The pink blobs. You don't eat those bits. Yeah but mm I'm not too sure about that. Ready? Happy birthday to you, happy birthday to you, happy birthday dear Christopher, happy birthday to you Blow them out then! Ready? Blow hard! Blow harder. Go on. Keep blowing Can't do it. Ready? Well shall we help? No no, he's gotta blow them out, go on blow. Hey! And the other side. That's it, there's one. Make a wish. And one more! Hurray! Hurray! Make a wish. Make your wish. Make a wish. Made your wish? You have to make Quietly. it in your head. Right we all gonna join in this time are we? Right. I'm not doing it. Who's doing it this time? Well we all, we're all gonna have a go with all that. Well done. It shows what a big boy you are, blowing them all out now. Look here Rebecca. Ready? Wait till daddy lights, we'll all have to sing again! Ready? Ready for happy birthday? Ready, go Happy birthday to you, happy birthday to you, happy birthday dear Christopher, happy birthday to you Ready? Hurray ! The end. Have to give him four claps, one two three four hurray ! There. Right it's cut the cake time. Oh darling Mummy are we allowed Go on, Rebecca to eat these? Are we allowed to eat these? Go on then, you can carry on singing but you're a bit late. What? These. The pink bits? Hurray! Well done Rebecca. Clever girl! Clever girl Rebecca. Happy boiled egg. Happy boil boiled egg Yeah she calls it ha ber day don't she? Happy ber day. Ha ber day. When we've finished Right sshh sshh sshh sshh sshh. Hush. Hush hush Hush. Hush Right Christopher, you get the first piece. Which piece? Do you want a small piece or a large piece? Just a small piece for now? Big piece. Alright, I'll do a big piece then. That's my bit isn't it? Right you can go on there ha! You've got Pass your plate over there. you've got the ha look. That's not a big bit. It is a bi Oh that is a big chunky bit that. Don't eat the pink bits. Pink bits? Robert pass your plate, oh Robert's having some later. Yeah I'm having some later. Are you? Why aren't you not allowed the pink bits? I'll have some later. Mummy why aren't you allowed the pink bits? They're just for decoration. Dad, daddy daddy daddy daddy I thought they were i iced daddy? Yeah just a little bit. This is Andrew's isn't it, first? Have you got a plate, there's Andrew's. Ta. There you go Andrew. Is that big enough Andrew? Mummy daddy He can always have some more Well the ca the cake's here. Quietly! Alright ? Yes I'm alright thank you, now hush. Right, daddy? Oh go on then, I keep saying just a small bit. Mummy That's all you're getting anyway. I ate the pink bits. Oh did you? Oh well. which goes across according to attainment targets. Now to help you with that I'd like it back I've put the attainment targets Bloody hell! Oh God! for stage one on here so it can just go across them. Okay? Now, this activity though, I, I'm going to ask you report it back so that each group reports to me Well Cathi , how you gonna with the activity now then I shall be able to say to you which I'll have to say next term when I go in to do my inspections, I'll have to say to the teacher er, one Oh we should actually have what our training. attainment targets are yo , you know what programmes of study are you addressing in this lesson? And it's gotta be specific. And two, I will say, how can you, with activity, can you tell me what a level two child should be doing? Or what's the difference in this activity for a level two or a level three child? Okay? Now that's not quite so easy. It's damn difficult. Well, to help you with that to give you an idea, first I'll the ta the attainment on this one, what to look for. And this is how parts of these statements have been translated. Don't go into the, this morning when she was doing activity she said ah, she said I I've got them to spot ten similarities, ten differences, great! Okay. But it's not good teaching. And I said, fine. I said, so how many of those would grade three, level three child have to get to be at a level three? And how many of those would a level two child have to get? And how many would the level one child have to get? Then you can make it into an easier idea of what I mean. But, when you're doing that you make assessment at the end of it to say what level you have, you've got to target specifically at certain things. It means a bit of cheating , will give you some idea of how they, at level one, on a picture a child, you'd expect a child to pick out two things about buildings. Okay? Or if you were doing water they could pick out two of the four things that you wanted about water. So when you're doing this bear that in mind. Okay? I'll try and do a little bit more here fine, but it's really thinking Improvisation is the word. of I know the . Okay? I'm sorry, I've forgot a little aid for you. Erm, I have one job here two pages on the area and if you look at it it gives you a progression from sort of pre-school life, nursery activity, right through to what will what will be level ten. I still feel Lyndsey can deal with that one. Right? So I'll leave you with an example Mm. which gives you some suggestions of what . Yeah that's fine. Ha! Well let's all take one of her things she's giving. I know. . Where are you for teaching practice? Er erm Saffron Junction. Oh oh! Just down the road from here. Yeah, right Ange. Yeah right. Do you want me to start or what? No, no, no, no. So Look, that's wha , what th that's what we've got in our I mean So are we planning for five weeks or planning for five lessons or what? Five weeks of work. Five weeks. Well, what we wanna do is do one, do week by week and then split it up into day by day. Yeah. Like that's your Yeah you need to work , go back. Erm I was gonna say yes. So it was a waste of time? Honestly , on my life, there were twenty masks And th , good masks? Glass cabinets, yeah they were really good, but, that was it, no information, nothing. Apart from a price list, so we had a price list, and I thought right so I went to a book shop and I tried to find a book on masks nothing. Apart from this book that was thirty pounds, it had two pages in it. Oh my God! Dunno what I'm gonna do. I really don't know what I'm gonna do. Go the library. Yeah, I've been and there's none there either. Well like go to your brother's and have a look. Yeah, I'm gonna have to go there. I'm planning to lo , I'm just gonna, we'll go, yeah I'm even gonna go to a book shop Mm. and get one. Gotta find one. Honestly, I've gotta headache. Why? I think I'm exhausted or hung over. I had I'm getting that way tomorrow night! I woke up, last night and Mark had had a really bad dream he was crying his eyes out. Why? I don't understand sometimes, like with nightmares, but like I can't seem to remember them and I left . Ah ah ah! But I just think I must have had Stress. a really bad nightmare. When I'm stressed I get really bad nightmares. Yeah. Well I've just had really bad night's sleep. Yeah. Mind you That's probably why. Matthew just made me laugh cos he said like So what did Matthew say then? He just said girls are completely different from, from boys. It's true , I honestly, I've heard that said, er said I've heard that when we were going shopping tonight, they said to me before I'd even Mm. It is, isn't it? I suppose that's what, what it erm honestly male male company's I know. better to be honest. Yeah. It really is. Cos males, what they do if they have an argument they'll punch it out and then Punch, yeah. they'll be best friends after. Or er , or they say fuck off and forget about it. It's freezing in here. No. Cra , they're crafty It's freezing in my own house, but I'm not cold at all. could you find that warm duvet to keep me warm. It's nice in there. Is it? Erm Mm. No you said it was your duvet. I said they've got a duvet in the ward , in my wardro My duvet in your wardrobe. I said we've got a duvet in my wardrobe. I'll give it to you one day. Oh yeah. You can have it. Oi! Oi! Oi! Oi! Ah ah! It's o , it's on , it's only a guest, a guest duvet. Is it? Yeah. Yeah. Lisa's got two of those for when Ashley and you know But said . I didn't. You said Lucy you haven't eaten your toast. What have you done tonight then? Absolutely Fabulous! For his birthday No, well, I know, I think that won't last very long somehow. Don't you? No. Well I mean Are you shocked Mum? I was really going to do it, honest. No I couldn't think So, Helen and Si! Er What shall you do with me? Oh my lady . Shut the window. Shut me in the . Hit me with your rhythm stick . Hit me hard and hit me quick. Oh it's six o'clock isn't it? What? It's six o'clock. What's six o'clock? It's half six. Oh half six. That's it. Yeah. That's what it says on his little card. Yes. Because he was going to sort of like Milk up Nicola didn't believe me when I told her. She thought I was playing a joke. What? When I told her about this. Didn't she? I goes er oh, I'm recording it for this thing and she goes, oh yeah my big head! I goes, I am ! But she didn't believe me. Can I have some sauce please? There was na , definitely no chance of a walk that day. But of Jane Eyre there for you. Whoops! What a culinary delight this is. Mm mm. Indeed. What? Indeed. Indeed. What exciting lessons did you have today then? Nothing too exciting. Well I had er er er er, oh, what did I have? Something, P E maths English and graphics. Science, maths, English and graphics. How come she's so in , you're so interested in the eleven plus and everything? Well we were having a discussion about erm whether it should be brought back. Mm mm. I said definitely not. Cos it makes rejects of people in society. And everyone went, what! As they all do in my class. Cos they're all thick! I couldn't believe it right Well they've all supposedly got intelligent parents by the thi , sound of them. Well not all of them. I was sat, I, I was sat there Not all thick like me. I was sat there, and they went who's planning to go onto University or education after eighteen? So I put up my hand, turned round and flipping Stuart and Danny had put their hands up and I just went, oh God! They're gonna do really well! And Terry, total Terry. Terry, who hasn't got a brain cell to rub together. Well you mo , he's in your class isn't he? So? Ah! That boy! This is the one who said I think we should be allowed to hit girls. He's he, two short planks does not describe this boy. Even Miss hates him. Now, well you see, she o , we was having this discussion about education and she goes, are you cynical about education Terry? He goes no. She goes ooh! She goes, why? And he goes, I don't know what cynical means. I was saying, ah no! And everyone in the class just cracked up. Sometimes you woth er,whe , you wonder whether he does it on purpose. He must do it on purpose, no one could be that thick. How many was thinking of going on? Ninety five percent. Oh. Yeah. But erm like Vicky who's got in her English folder this is Vicky, you know Vicky she's got in her literature she's got nine A's and one B. And in her other, I don't know what she's got, ten A's probably. And she's not going to. She wants to be a nurse. Oh does she? And er like she said, aren't you Vicky? And she goes no Miss. Erm, you can't be a nurse till you're eighteen. No. No, you can't go in as a stu er, student. So like you know, she's gonna stay on do A levels and then go into it. Mm mm. Because she might as well have some A levels just in case or whatever. But erm you know, ah you know, she's, you know I can understand that actually, she's being quite sensible about it, she said, there's nothing else I wanna do and I might as well do something I enjoy. You know, you've only got one life haven't you, when you comes down to it? Well if that's what she wants to do, that's what she wants to do innit? Mm. Like, her Dad said to her, why don't you be a doctor? And she ju , but she don't want to. You know, she wants to be in a hospital Yeah. like, she don't want to end up in general practice. Well sh , doesn't necessarily have to end up in general practice does she? No, but Well I mean for the first year she won't be in if she goes in as a student she'll be in college. I know, but it won't take as long for her to get there as it will if she becomes a doctor. Oh no. Three years int it, a student? Mm. But then you get on-hand experience from it. Hands on I should say, not on-hand. But er Learning how to clean pot er er, bed pans and make beds and things like that. Clearing up sick. Mhm. That's her favourite job isn't it? Mm mm. You know, I thought of being that once but I wouldn't mind it in the wards, but I wouldn't wanna be in the operating theatre. I don't know why. See, blood don't put me off or anything, but You don't have to go into the theatre for so long I think. Mm mm. But then you can sa , you can specialize you see. I mean, some nurses go into the theatre all the time once they've qualified, so Yeah. I think that they'll have to go in you'll have to go into each area. But like I mean, I don't mind the blood or whatever, and if they were doing little things I could handle it but like, like on that op op , operation that woman was having the other day and they cut her open and they just pulled. Well they do. And that,tha , that's the thing that makes me red, it's not the cutting it's when they just pull it apart and it like Well who's gonna know? rips. Urgh! Urgh! They could have cut it. Well they do cut it. No they cut the skin and then they just pulled it apart. Yeah, because it's not th , not like that underneath. They, they didn't pull it apart they, they cut down if they cut down with a knife then they could cut into something couldn't they? Ooh! oop! It could be dangerous. Say you, you open up the top and then the others parts. The lining. Urgh! Urgh! Yeah but what they ripped was all fat! All her Well fat! Ooh ooh! Yeah, but you see you've got the, you've got all the, the other things ins , down, down it, underneath, and I mean if you started going in with a knife and you started cutting down, I mean you could sa , cut an artery or anything couldn't you? Which could be a bit nasty. You know. Hello pussycat! Buy a little bag for me. A chick a chick a chick a chicken . Hello my . Ooh! Whose turn is it tonight? Mine. Good. Well and if it was David's the poor dog'd never get taken. We've seen it on T V,and now it half past three Come on! Does that mean you're gonna come flower? What I was listening to myself on that. Mm mm. Oh! Is my laugh vile or what? And my voice. That's Alices' cos it was . I only bought one today. Do you have milk? Little drop please. I only bought that to today. What these? Mm mm. Have one. I was having Mm mm. Good. That's going round . I know. Ooh yes! And that's my problem, we keeping thinking about another one and doing things. Yeah. Is that enough milk. Mhm. That's so strong. Who's is that Golden Crown? Alices'. Feeling better? Er, yes. Thank you. Alice's. That's Alice's shelf, that's mine, the smaller one. That cakes, that's all ours. Turn if off. Leave it running. Ha? Yeah. I didn't put it on. Orange juice, see we've got this here. Where? Lots of different Oh yeah. things there. Erm Whose is the orange juice? Mine. Do you want some? No thank you. Have you got a cold? Yeah. But this cold has been so bad today. My inhaler, my new inhaler is so weird. It's one I can suck up, I don't press it down. It's like . Oh yeah. Thank you. . Yes. If anyone picks it up Lucy do you want a cup of tea? Yeah please. Ah! Yes please Marion. Yeah the pictures Monday night. Second one. Tea or coffee? Whatever you're making. Whatever you want. Tea please. I don't drink coffee, I was just being polite. Why didn't up here? Cos, cos you don't do any other things. Oh! It's so gross! Yeah. I've worked out how to use self-timer on my camera. Ah no! Er er excellent! Then you can run in front. That's what I told Matthew Don't have to I wanted. You should get one of them. I told him I wanted one with a self-timer on it. Get, my camera it's really good. How much was it? Er er, ninety pound I think, can't remember. Mine was eigh , sixty five and I don't think it's very good. I got it for my eighteenth you see. They're brill! Is your little Fiesta er a a two-seater? Yeah. Go and get that. Shall we go on that? I bet Go it's . Go! I was gonna say, I bet you dance round Anyway, she's gone to bed cos she's knackered. Cath's always knackered. That's such a nice . I like that one. Ooh! A couple of very important announcements first of all. Erm books are . Er erm is therefore if I can take it out Oh! er erm well, I know when it is, Thursday the eleventh of November, it's a matinee performance so it starts at two o'clock. Okay? Thursday the eleventh of November, matinee performance, starting at two o'clock and the tickets are five pounds. So that's the cheapest we can get. And then That's reading week isn't it? No Sorry? it's the it's er week after. Oh! The week after. So . I won't do it on a reading week, I'll do it Thursday the eleventh. in the lesson week. Thursday the eleventh of November? Well, reading week's the first weekend. Oh. Okay, Thursday the eleventh. To catch it, if you want to come you've gotta get a fiver, to me, with your name, by two o'clock tomorrow afternoon cos that's when I have to confirm the booking. If you want to come, get five pounds to me with your name and number. Right, we'll have the it's a two o'clock matinee. Mm? Thursday the eleventh Yeah. of November. I probably, won't be able to go. ? I er well Probably not, I dunno. Thursday afternoon's a good time cos it clashes with Geography and English Studies. Yeah. Oh alright. Yeah. And we will be doing that. We'll have to bunk off. You might miss . Yes. Just don't quote me. Can we give you the money . You can give,well , I'm open to some large cash donations . Round about now. Erm Sorry, when, what would we have to do? Give you our money Give me , if you want to come I need you, your money basically. Can we give you a cheque? You can give me a cheque. Five pounds. You can pay for, a group of you if you want, you know,i if some of are happy to, you know, there'll be two or three of you that will help. But give me so that I can then confirm the booking. So if we just shove the money and P O number, and our number under your door? Yeah. Yeah. What's your phone number again? I've got my cheque book with me. We could do at the end of the lesson. I'll pay you back. Okay Marion. I'll have yours as well instead Mm. after that. Erm, I haven't bought as many tickets as there are people in my two seminar groups Oh right. cos I'm assuming that there are some people who when it actually comes to the crunch don't want to go, and there's some who won't be able to go due to other commitments. But that means that spaces might actually be erm Oh! Limited. li , limited, is that the word I'm looking for? Limited, I think. Right, well I think erm right. Got that. Where is it gonna be, sorry? It's gonna be Bath. Erm, the Royal Shakespeare Company production. Ah! I saw it on the thing actually, yeah. Erm I wanted to actually arrange a coach if there's enough people sort of please arrange a coach, could do, but I reckon it's probably easier to go up By train. don't you? Mm mm. Er er, on the train. Even if it was the day we'd be sort of coming back Get the traffic. in the rush hour. Yeah. Mm? So that again, talk about Sorry? Erm, I never asked er, any B A Q T S course? Okay. Listen up, this is important. It has been decided the powers that be, are onto the something that you are going to do your first semester exam in June. Oh what! Not the semester Shit! just been. Okay? What's that? It will not be the same paper needless to say. When was ? February. Why's Okay? that then I wonder? Why is that? Is there any reason? Erm no, this was told to me, I presume this was discussed as some sort of No it's not. We do the exams the week before, er before. Erm Yeah. well I suppose we won't have enough time to prepare for teachers though. No. The teaching's far more important than English obviously. It came, the decision came from your the education department. Yes, well, another cock-up Er er, the English department. there. Are they for or second years? The exams on first semester work is June. Okay. That's enough of that. So by the time we sit our exam we'll have forgotten al , what we've done? Yeah you'll have re-read all of it. Great! Ha ha! Super! Bloody hell! Yeah. Yeah. And I thought I was gonna go, go home early at the end of the second semester cos I'd have my exams. Oh oh. You were wrong! Right. Can we turn to tho that work sheet please? And, as, I, I know the people who were here last week, the questions for act one scene one or two will be relevant to the second part of the seminar, it will be, but we'll ignore them at the moment. So, go straight onto act two, scene three. Okay. Er erm first question there. What do we learn about the opening, the opening and closing scenes of the two acts? Anything? Er er Does it say that? Erm er er, what would you learn from them? Right. And what we learn about them . Yeah. Okay. So, he's he's thoroughly mad by this stage and er, he er obsessed with Mrs from . Er erm does anybody spot any of the progression in the speech? From where he starts to where he ends? Does he go through any ? Feel sorry for Saffron 's son. Mm. Yes. Although he still believes that what he's done is right, that er that his wife has se deserves what she's got. That's my er well er illness set this to right, we must stop so we establish the rule never have the by a gr by a grumpy process in Well what choice did he what choice has he got? In the, there was a workhouse and With this view they can trap to lay on and then supply of water, and when a and half an orange Sunday they named a great many of Anything else that they make great many other wise and humane This is a, this is Yes The room was inseparable from the worker and the Okay, so make the, what's going on in England at the time? Paul yeah The, the people in charge see that the work are an excellent idea, so if you Workers were only used people who could actually work, if people can't do a job then they go off to an They could do but then again of American people could be lost and Would they get out of very easily? Erm they do what you do yeah and then again the old people would join the sent to Australia There's certain ways that Would you give No But they were criminals anyway if you treat honest poor people like this then criminals are lower than, you'd take better care of animals than you would Er Nick carry on from the first six months after Oliver Twist you can read For the first six months after Oliver Twist the system was full, was in full operat operation. It was rather extensive at first and consequence of being and a necessity of taking in clothes of all the paupers who, with, which on a, on a waste of after a week or two the number of the workhouse inmates got thin as well as the paupers and the board were in, were in and then in which the boys got back, were, were a large was a cop was a copper at one end, after which the master dressed in an apron and assisted by one or two women and they ladled the gruel at meal times. Of this festive composition each boy had one corinder corinder and no more except on occasions with great the bowl never wanted washing, the boys polished, polished them with their spoons till they shone again and when they, when they had to form this operation, which never took very long,the bowl, they would sit staring at the copper with such eager eyes as if they could of devoured a of which it was composed. Employing themselves meanwhile and sucking their fingers most assid Assiduously assiduously Carefully with a, with a the view of catching up any, any spare splashes of gruel that might be cast there thereon. Boys with generally excellent appetite, Oliver Twist and his companions suffered from the tortures of slow starvation, starvation for three months, at least they got so for ferocious , is that right? Ferocious, greedy and wild and wild beyond er, that one boy who was and hadn't been used to that sort of thing, for his father had kept a small cook stock his companion that unless he has another basin of gruel he was afraid he might, he might some night happen to eat, eat the boy he slept next to, who happened to be a weakly youth of tender eight and they, and they impeccably believed him. A counsel was held lots were who should walk up to the master after supper that evening and ask for more, it fell Oliver Twist What is actually er the boy is, could eat the boy next to him erm what was it saying that was Well erm, it's a bit, he was he was just trying to scare him, trying to scare him Were you right when the worst thing that this he had big pies it proves how desperate people get and then he treats them like animals and this boy said I think Er the evening arrived then er David The evening arrived, the boys took their places, the master in a cook's uniform stationed himself at the copper. His four assistants behind him. The gruel was served up and a long grace was said over a short the gruel disappeared, the boys looked at each other and went over, while his next neighbours nudged him, tired as he was he was desperately hungry and he rest on the table and the master with his hands he said Yeah that's please sir, I want some more, the master of the but he turned very pale and then he what, said the master at in a stern voice, please sir, replied Oliver I want some more, the master glare at Oliver's head with the ladle in his arms and treat and Mr Bumble rushed into the room with great excitement and addressed the gentleman in the high chair said I beg your pardon sir, Oliver Twist has asked for more, there was a for more said compose yourself Bumble and do I understand that he asked for more after he'd eaten supper he did sir replied Bumble, that boy would be hung I know that boy will be hung this boy is a trouble maker and and the boy would next morning would pass on the outside of the gate offering a reward of five pounds to anyone who would in other words five pounds for Oliver Twist I never in for this in my life said the in the white, white coat as he locked the gate and he went to the next morning. I never want to I had always anything in my life and then I am that boy by the white waistcoat the gentleman So what's he got against the yeah, erm, he's also, what's his attitude to what he yes, but is he, is he terribly serious about his job? No, he's very sarcastic Yeah, erm you're right, as I first show in sequel whether the white waistcoated gentleman was right or not, I should have just yet, whether like Oliver Twist Later Oliver Twist was very near getting a in other words Sorry It could not of been easy you'll find out actually why in a moment A week after the had asking for more, Oliver remained greater prisoner in the darken solitary room which he had been consigned by the wisdom and mercy of the board, but it appears that at first sight not unreasonable disclose that for a particular gentleman of white waistcoat. It was established that individual pathetic character once and forever by tying one end of his pocket handkerchief to a hook on, in the wall and attaching himself to the other to the performance, to, to the performance of this feat however the pocket handkerchief inside had been all he, he only cried bitterly all day and when the longest nights came on he spread his little hand before his eyes to shut out the darkness and crouching in the corner tried to sleep, everyone drawing himself closer and closer to the wall It's most that any prisoner you could do, but then again yeah Let it not be spoke by of the system that during the period of as for exercise it was nice cold weather a public warning had been and so far this uses the same apartment every evening at prayer time and there selfish mind work a general publication for boys contain a special clause by authority of the board in which they repeatedly made good, virtuous, protected, obedient as regarded to a the powers of wickedness as an article direct from What is his crime? He asked for more He just asked for more erm, one thing that is disturbing, what he does very causally mention is what is going on all the time Well maybe not, but what is going on is Fear fear, all the time, if anybody to steps out of line or as I was going with the fourth year to what lies have been used? how can they justify what they do? yeah, they they're being fed, they're still kind people taking care of them, they're very lucky people and what do and so we presumably, the little children well I suppose you get in a gutter or something, this place would be better, as long as you get fed, the stuff you get there is horrible, but at least it's food and er, these kind people are taking care of it. In the outside world there's people waiting to exploit children and er Anthony do you want Erm with chimney sweeper was waiting down in the high street he was waiting there whoa said Mr to the donkey, the donkey was wondering probably whether he was so without listening to a word of warning he jumped on him What makes you a bit disturbed about that? He's trying to smash Yes if he keeps the donkey like that How's he treat children how he treat children, yeah The gentleman with the white waistcoat The gentleman with the white waistcoat was standing at the gate with his hands behind him after having delivered himself having witnessed with the donkey he smiled rejoicedly when that the door, he saw at once it was Mr Mr smiled as he pursued the I am said the gentleman in the white waistcoat Erm what is a erm, you say the young boy was Erm, where they, where they work as giving five pounds and Oliver Twist or did they want five pounds for him? Er I gather they and er the workhouse, the gentleman in the white waistcoat, why does he think that this would feed the child regularly in a That's it, yeah, he's that beats the donkey, I mean all the donkey does is he hits the donkey while he pulls the reins, hits the donkey again and he finds out later that Well the man in the white waistcoat followed the gentleman with the white waistcoat into even if he gets stuck in a chimney, worse thing that he the gentleman in the white waistcoat appeared his only chance he has is Okay, now erm now what's he supposed to be assessed by the board have they just said er, why are what's he doing? Yeah, it's all religious, hypocrisy okay, humane, it's humane to slog these boys down the chimney, yeah, it's humane giving them a good beating isn't it, right then. If any of you happen to be professional philosophers, you will certainly have had this experience in your, in society, you're asked what you do, and if you make that admission, a slightly lunatic thing happens. That you're greeted in the first place with erm either silence or some vague and not singularly hopeful mutter, but more importantly with a curious facial expression mingled between erm dread and contempt, sort of thing you'd expect as if you'd said you were a sorcerer. I find myself the only thing is to change the subject. This erm reaction to the disclosure I think's exaggerated but on the other hand there's something in it. Because although the problems in which philosophers begin are fairly easy to state and quite straightforward, erm certainly when they begin they end up in some rather strange regions. Philosophy always has begun from Athens on from a recognition of the extraordinary facts of the diversity of human belief and attitude, on moral questions, on questions of social organization, on questions as to the ultimate nature of the universe, the destiny of man, and all such things, the most astonishing diversity of belief and attitude has prevailed and still does prevail amongst people. That, however, together with the fact that each and all of us, I think, individually, entertain fairly strong confidence about the rationality, about the rightness of our own position. It's this combination of diversity and conviction which presents such a peculiar problem. If we all agreed and erm shared, then erm the fact that we were confident wouldn't perhaps matter too much. Or if we all disagreed, but we treated it all, to use Russell's favourite example, like disagreements about the taste of oysters, it wouldn't matter very much either. But what's so striking is that this great diversity of belief is accompanied by strong convictions of rationality and rectitude. And the effect of this, over the last two thousand years odd, upon the intelligent observer, has been to produce a mood, or even a philosophy, of scepticism. Because if, on matters seemingly of great importance for mankind, different people can entertain with great conviction radically conflicting beliefs, it strongly suggests that nobody really knows what they are talking about, and that the confidence of all of them is misplaced, and perhaps that nobody knows upon what general principles one ought to settle questions of these kinds. Scepticism in these circumstances is a very tempting position in which to rest. But when you think of it, it's not really a possible position in which to rest. Because the sceptic is in the nature of things, if he's really consistent and systematic, committed to tolerating, well, all these other opinions, to tolerating all sorts of preposterous absurdities and monstrous attitudes. The sceptic is I suppose really the arch-conservative. Whatever is, is. And he signs himself off from systematic criticism. And so you find yourself forced, not merely to note the diversity of belief and the strength of individual confidence, and to be a bit sceptical, but to search around for principles of adjudication, for ways of trying to sort out what beliefs are reasonable and acceptable, and what not. The pain of, the fault of that, the penalty is, that you will find yourself tolerating every absurdity of superstition and the like. So the philosopher begins his search for some conceivable agreed ways of adjudicating these tangled controversial issues. Russell once said, ‘It is not by delusion that mankind can prosper, but only by unswerving courage in the pursuit of truth.’ In that remark, several of his convictions are already present. He recognizes, and indeed one is forced to recognize, from the mere fact that so many strong beliefs are contradictory, that very much in human belief is delusion. Present also, in that statement, is his conviction, which is suggested by the word ‘unswerving courage’, that the pursuit of truth may be difficult, that it may lead one to call in question things that one doesn't want to give up and which it is painful to surrender. But he argues that this is the fundamental thing to go by. There is truth, it is possible at least to advance towards it, we mustn't sit down in what Hume called ‘a forlorn scepticism’, erm it will require great courage to pursue it, but only by pursuing it shall mankind prosper. The phases of Russell's pursuit of truth are roughly these: as a boy, as a youth, he had an intense battle over traditional religious belief. That occupied the eighties. In the nineties, when he was at Cambridge, he had another struggle with German idealism, embodied as it then was in the English universities. In the nineteen hundreds, he was concerned with the foundations of mathematics, and then for the remainder of his life, roughly between nineteen-ten and nineteen-fifty, or indeed to the very end of his life, he was concerned with two sets of knowledge, erm problems in the theory of knowledge, and problems about social organization and personal conduct. So I'll take things in that order. Russell was born of liberal, free-thinking parents, who died when he was an infant, and thereafter he was brought up by his grandmother, Lady Russell, the wife, though shortly the widow, of Lord John Russell, who was erm a Presbyterian who gradually moved over to Unitarianism and who, as Russell put it later, preached quote ‘virtue at the expense of intellect, health, happiness and every mundane good.’ In fact he was subjected to a very stiff, puritanical and doctrinal regime, only mitigated by the fact that he was educated by a long sequence of tutors, and seemed to have access to a lot of books. Even as a child, Russell describes himself as having found this intellectual, religious background as intolerable, and he says that he spent endless hours meditating on the supposed rational grounds for Christianity. And between the ages of fourteen and eighteen came gradually the disbelief, first in free will, then in immortality, and finally in God. In the first chapter of his autobiography, we have an interesting record of this struggle, which he wrote down in English words but in Greek characters, in order that his thoughts erm shouldn't be accessible to his family. What roughly he says is that he is committed to the following scientific arguments, arguments based upon scientific principles, regardless of any pain that may be caused to him or to others by so doing. And he then tries to show in detail how this caused him, first of all, to disbelieve in free will on account of a commitment to universal determinism, then in immortality, and finally in God. And although much of this was, by the record that he gives, painful, at the very end of it he says, quote, ‘I found to my surprise that I was quite glad to be done with the whole subject’. erm And he obviously thought at least that he had shaken off religion for good. But the interesting thing is that, although he was certainly done with Christianity, erm and done with doctrinal religion, done with theism, done with all normally erm accepted Christian beliefs, he certainly wasn't done with religion itself. There was throughout his life a long conflict between what may one may call a sort of scientific naturalism in his attitude to the world, and the impulse to hypostatize his ideals, to create out of his ideals erm ideal beings of some kind, and so to worship. The great bulk of his writing about religion, however, is strongly negative. He didn't claim to be an atheist. He took the view that erm religious beliefs are highly improbable if not demonstrably false, as judged from the scientific standpoint. If you approach God's existence as you would approach any scientific hypothesis, you're forced to recognize, he says, that it's highly improbable. He didn't take a positivistic line and argue that the sentence ‘God exists’ is literally meaningless, but he did at least think that it was, expressed a proposition which no reasonable person would accept. And if you abandon scientific evidence, it's no good looking to feeling. You can't make any inferences from how you feel about the world or any emotional experiences that you may have, to what is there in reality. And if you look at what religions, organized religions exhibit, you will find, and very numerous essays and chapters in his books hammer away at these themes, that organized religions are inhuman, they are obscurantist, they are reactionary, they are based on fear and hatred of other people, ignorance of the way the world works, and conceit. Conceit, because they tend to attribute to human beings a position in the world to which, a position of importance in the world, to which they're not entitled. Nothing, in other words, could be sharper than Russell's condemnation of traditional Christianity. Not, however, that there's anything original in it. All those things had been said time and again erm by various thinkers in the eighteenth century and before and after. It wasn't original, but what it was, as always with Russell, was something expressed with uncommon verve and humour and a persistent, sinister, undermining irony, in which he excelled. But although he took this very stiff line about theism and organized religion, it's not true that Russell himself was void of religious feelings and interests. He repeatedly expresses himself as awestruck by nature and by the contemplation of truth, and as having a, a desire to worship something outside himself. He found humanism, which posits no values outside human beings, very hard to swallow, although he could see no case against it. And more positively, he found in mysticism, besides metaphysical delusions, which he is the first to castigate, yet an affirmation of the possibility of universal love and joy which is the apex of human achievement. This is a side of Russell which people perhaps don't know about, erm so well as the others, so if I may, I'll read some passages and paraphrase it. About mysticism he says, ‘While its theories seem to me to be mistaken, I yet believe that by sufficient restraint, there is an element of wisdom to be learned from the mystical way of feeling, which does not seem to be attainable in any other manner. If this is the truth, mysticism is to be commended as an attitude towards life, not as a creed about the world. The metaphysical creed, I shall maintain, is a mistaken outcome of the emotion, although this emotion, as colouring and informing all other thoughts and feelings, is the inspirer of whatever is best in man. Even the cautious and patient investigation of truth by science, which seems to be the very antithesis of the mystic's swift certainty, may be fostered and nourished by that very spirit of reverence in which mysticism lives and moves. What is, in all cases, ethically characteristic of mysticism, is absence of indignation or protest, acceptance with joy, disbelief in the ultimate truth of the division into two hostile camps, the good and the bad. This attitude is a direct outcome of the nature of the mystical experience, with its sense of unity is associated a feeling of infinite peace. Indeed, it may be suspected that the feeling of peace produces, as feelings do in dreams, the whole system of associated beliefs which make up the body of mystic doctrine.’ Again, ‘The possibility of this universal love and joy in all that exists is of supreme importance for the conduct and happiness of life, and gives inestimable value to the mystic emotion, apart from any creeds which may be built upon it. But if we are not to be led into false beliefs, it is necessary to realize exactly what the mystic emotion reveals. It reveals a possibility of human nature, a possibility of a nobler, freer, happier life than could otherwise be achieved. But it does not reveal anything about the non-human or about the nature of the universe in general. Good and bad, and even the higher good that mysticism finds everywhere, are the reflections of our own emotions on other things, not part of the substance of things as they are in themselves.’ For the rest of Russell's life there was a constant tug of war between the very real religious sentiments which he expresses in passages like those and his sceptical attitude towards established religions. I think I shall be able to show you that this religious attitude underlay some of the most striking aspects of Russell's life: his pacifism, and his deep concern with human misfortune and misery. The second big battle that Russell had in his unswerving pursuit of truth was with German idealism, mainly Hegelian idealism, which by a very curious aberration from the standard empiricism of the British people, took root in Oxford and Cambridge in the last half of the last century, and was almost for a time unchallenged. Russell first read mathematics at Cambridge and then, in the second half of his tripos, philosophy, and he then came strongly under this influence. I must say I've been seriously wondering, during this lecture, whether I was going to have the courage or not, to attempt to give you a thumbnail exposition of Hegelian metaphysics. To tell the honest truth I'm still dithering. In the days when I used to drink alcohol I'd have said it was possible to do it only on the basis of several glasses of sherry. Now that I'm a teetotaller it's become even harder. But broadly speaking, however, and this will do, I think, the principle as far as Russell's concerned is this: that according to this way, this way of thinking is monistic. It believes that everything in the world is related to everything else in such an intimate way that only the whole is, can be said to be real, and only by seeing everything in its associated network of the whole to which it belongs, of the complete whole to which it belongs, can it be understood. Piecemeal understanding of the world, bit by bit, is not on. Therefore all understanding, in any way worthy the name, has to begin from the whole of reality as such, and proceed outwards from there to the details of the world as we know it. That's one. Two is that there, in some sense, some perhaps rather extended and difficult sense, this totality of everything which we have to take by storm directly if any detail of the world is every to be understood, can be said to be mental. erm At least it can be more nearly said to be mental than anything else. In a real sense, our mind or at least, our mind as it truly is, our mind as it would be if it were purged of all individuality, partiality, incompleteness, confusion, emotion and what not, is identical with the total absolute which the business of philosophy is to study. And thirdly, in order to unravel the totality of things that are and see how it is inwardly articulated and how it emanates into the diversity of the world as we experience in the ordinary way, your thought has to follow a special kind of logic, dialectical logic, which exhibits the process of thought and simultaneously the process of reality as one that proceeds by things being or things being said, and these giving rise to their opposites, to contradictions, and these contradictory moments or items being taken up in a greater, synthesizing whole. If one thinks dialectically, so Hegel believed, it was possible, for the it was possible, he had done it, it's set out in the Encyclopedia, his Encyclopedia,to see the whole system of reality as one articulated, logical system in which everything has its orderly and appointed place. Russell was taken up in this for a time, he even wrote wonderful piece on the foundations of geometry couched in erm a sort of vaguely dialectical form, which in later life he erm pronounced as being complete rubbish. He says of himself that he was, that there was a curious pleasure in making oneself believe that time and space are unreal, that matter is an illusion, and that the world really exists, consists of nothing but mind. And he certainly did enter into it with erm vigour for a short period. But only very for a very short period. And then, under the influence of G. E. Moore, he rocketed off to the very opposite of metaphysical extremes. He came, towards the end of the nineties, to believe that there are erm there must be things which are in the strictest possible sense non-mental, and which would be what they were, even if there had never been any minds that were conscious of them. Moreover, erm the world can be broken down into elements, into simples, which you can perceive or grasp conceptually as what they are quite independently of the system as a whole to which they belong. Hence philosophical analysis can and must proceed by erm philosophical thinking must proceed by analysis, by breaking down complex wholes into their simple parts and building them up by construction out of these simple parts, a conviction to which Russell remained true for the rest of his life. Thenceforward, Russell was consistently what I called earlier a scientific naturalist. He allowed himself, or claimed to allow himself, no beliefs about the world which couldn't be justified if, if, even if only in a very loose sense, by scientific canons of procedure. Nature is an reality independent of mind, man is in fact only a small cog in the machine. ‘I see nothing,’ he says, ‘nothing impossible, in a universe devoid of experience.’ And looking back on his emergence from absolute idealism, he says of himself that he came to hate the stuffiness of supposing that space and time were only in the mind. And I fancy that erm a large part of his animus against latterday Oxford philosophy was that he suspected it of covert idealism, erm a preoccupation simply with the knowing mind, insufficient attention to the facts of the world as presented by science. And yet, although he was a scientific naturalist and although in frequent essays he reminds us of the insignificance and unimportance of man in the whole scheme of things, it's plain that, from the beginning, and as I hope I shall be able to show you, right down to the end, he found something emotionally hard to bear, I was going to say, in fact, intolerable, in this situation. You will see what I mean if you read a very strange piece called ‘A Free Man's Worship’, which he wrote in nineteen-hundred and three. Strange because it is, as he later admitted and I'm sure he was later very embarrassed by it, erm histrionic and emotional in the most extreme way. erm He apparently is adopting the position of a scientific naturalist, and yet all the ways in which he talks about nature are ways which personify it. Nature is grinding down man, or will grind down man, has no regard to him, is cruel, all this kind of language is used of nature, and he depicts the only posture of the rational man as a kind of, if such a thing is possible, a rather emotional Stoicism. But if you read that rather strange, moving document, you will see very well what I mean, when I refer to Russell's emotional difficulty in accepting what commended itself so strongly to his intellect, a purely naturalistic, scientific account of what things are. In the year nineteen hundred, nineteen hundred and one, Russell then underwent a double revolution, a moral revolution and an intellectual one. The moral revolution, which is very strikingly described in his autobiography, arose out of a visit that he and his wife paid to the Whitehead family, which were then undergoing a family tribulation of some kind, and Russell was deeply moved by their plight. And, as he describes it in a very striking page, suddenly had what he calls a, a very acute sense of unendurable individual loneliness of man, the acute, an acute sense of the pathos of the situation of the human individual, somehow inherently lonely, shut up within himself, undefended,against the blows of fate. This led him to see that, that only one thing which can begin to come to the rescue of human beings in this situation, and that is universal love, and on that basis he saw, almost instantaneously, that war, that violence, that coldness in personal relations even, are morally intolerable. ‘At the end of those five minutes, he said, I had become a completely different person.’ As he describes himself he had been, during the nineties at Cambridge and afterwards, a rather worldly, flippant creature, erm but after this experience something changed within him, and he says, and I suppose, I think we must believe that it is true, that it was on account of this sort of moral mystical experience that his whole attitude to the world was changed, and he was provided with the peculiar moral strength to fight the battles, as he later did fight, against war and other such things. But — and it's this sort of complication that makes him I think such a remarkable man — although that did happen then, for the next ten, twelve years, he was entirely preoccupied, almost entirely preoccupied with something else, and this something else erm originates from the other revolution that he underwent at this time, a revolution that occurred after a visit to an international mathematical congress in Paris, where he met the Italian mathematician Peano. To try and explain this one is almost as bad as to try and explain Hegel erm my ignorance is even more crying in this case than in the other. But the broad gist of the point I think is this. Like very many other people, and this theme runs right through the length of European intellectual life, Russell was, he was delighted with mathematics when he first encountered it, erm immensely impressed by the certainty of its propositions, as so many other people had been, erm troubled a bit by the logical inadequacy of much of the mathematics that he was presented with, especially at Cambridge, and investing mathematics with a kind of Platonic aura. His immense desire to have something outside himself that he could look up to and worship expressed itself not merely in that idealistic phase that he'd just gone through, but in his attitude towards mathematical truth. With Russell at this stage, as with Plato, mathematics assumed a semi-religious aspect. As he said, ‘I wanted certainty in the kind of way in which most people want religious faith. I thought that certainty is more likely to be found in mathematics than elsewhere. I set out with a more or less religious belief in a Platonic, eternal world, in which mathematics shares with a beauty, shines, I'm sorry, with a beauty of that of the last cantos of the Paradiso.’ What Peano and then the German mathematicians with whom he had previously not been acquainted did for him, was to suggest an astonishing idea. A mathematical system is distinguished by the fact that it seeks to derive a large number of very complex conclusions from a small number of primitive propositions, employing a small number of primitive ideas. What Peano had suggested was that it might be possible, not to take the simple ideas with which people had hitherto operated in mathematics as ultimate, but to derive them from something simpler still. You might think that you could hardly have anything much simpler than the idea of zero or unity, or even perhaps the notion of number,erm sorry, but what, zero or unity, what Peano was proposing to do was to define these basic arithmetical ideas in terms of ideas simpler still. And Russell thought that this could be generalized even further. He thought that he could defined the, the simplest concepts to which Peano claimed to reduce arithmetical ideas, to classes and relations between classes, and even perhaps in terms of something still simpler, quite purely in logical conceptions like that of implication. What he would achieve if he could do this was twofold. He would show that mathematics could be reduced to something even more simple, more general, more basic than had hitherto been supposed, to logical concepts, and, moreover, at the same time, he would be able to exhibit the internal logical structure of mathematics in a much more rigorous way. In this way erm starting from logical indefinables of maximum simplicity, and by rigorous logical construction of the rest of its contents on that basis, he'd be able to exhibit the whole of mathematics as a perfectly systematic and unquestionable structure. The very paradigm of knowledge. This immensely ambitious programme was what he started out on in the early nineteen hundreds and it was this which, with the assistance of A. N. Whitehead, eventually emerged in his great treatise Principia Mathematica. This work eventually encountered various great technical difficulties which, it seems, could only be resolved by what most people have regarded as unsatisfactory expedients, and so that the, the system in many ways that he evolved as an answer to this programme has not been commonly held to be entirely satisfactory. But yet there's no doubt at all that despite the technical shortcomings of his work in subsequent judgement, erm Russell by this work became, I suppose, the main founder of modern logic, the main founder of this kind of logic which by the much more sophisticated symbolic apparatus erm is able to panelize a much wider range of logical phenomena, and hence to reveal the structure in a way which had not been possible before. Of this Russell was the principle founder, and this I think is his greatest claim to intellectual fame. But as the work progressed, one thing at least went by the board, and that was his original Platonic outlook. Partly for technical reasons, partly for temperamental reasons, Russell came to very different conclusions to the Platonic ones with which he began. He came to the conclusion, as he puts it, ‘that the eternal world is trivial, and that mathematics is only the art of saying the same thing in different words.’ Not thereby an unimportant art, but not an art which yields something which could be a proper object of worship. There's one other aspect, I think, of this period, this immensely important and fertile period in Russell's life, which is worth emphasis. He says little about it, but I don't think that there is very much doubt that intellectually he did exhaust himself. He describes this period of work as one of, of terrible strain, it was also a period in which he was personally very unhappy, and I get the impression that he really did use the best of his mind on this problem, and that for the rest of his life he found it difficult to press his thinking home with the kind of ruthlessness that many of the problems that he then assumed required. And in my opinion, and in that of many other people, is the philosophical analysis to which he then proceeded, often bears the mark of a certain superficiality. He tends not to formulate and face the difficulties that he encounters sufficiently rigorously, and erm to on the whole get away with difficulties by the skilful way in which he writes about them and by his wit. He, in the, in the early nineteen-fifties he once came to, he came to Oxford, and there was a meeting at which erm all my colleagues threw at him very sophisticated objections to his philosophical position. Listening to this I on the whole thought that in a real sense he never really quite answered them, on the other hand he made every single person look silly. He had a way of dealing with objections which, even if he didn't face them, made it appear absolutely ridiculous to maintain the opposite position. It's basically a literary more than a philosophical gift, but it was fantastically effective. And it seems to me that in his written work likewise, he tends to rely rather heavily upon this remarkable dexterity. What however he did seek to do, starting from about nineteen-hundred erm and ten, or nineteen-twelve, was to apply the same methodological procedures which he'd applied in mathematics, to a range of philosophical problems. I go on much too long. I shall have to think about that as I proceed, shan't I? The problem is basically this, that he then faced: We're all perfectly well aware that the world consists of a lot of different things, files, bottles of water and the like, but we're also aware of, that there are more radical differences between the kinds of things that compose the world. For example, that the images that I now call up in my mind as I look at the front door of my house, this is something quite real, but it's real in a much more radically different, in a radically different sense, there's a, somehow a radically difference in the kind of reality which that image enjoys, to the reality that that bottle enjoys. And, likewise, if I conceive the very, the minute particles of which, according to physics, the bottle is ultimately composed, and I start thinking about electrons, then it begins to become plain that these also are real in some much more radically different sense than that in which the bottle and the glass are different from one another. And the problem which Russell faced is, supposing now we do concede that there are these radical differences of the, of the kinds of things of which the world is filled, how can we examine their relations? What relationship is there between our beliefs about the sense experiences and the images that we have, our beliefs in ordinary material things like jugs and bottles, our belief in the theoretical objects of physics? And his programme was to try to show that really ultimately the only things that can be accepted are our own sense experiences, and to try to exhibit everything else, ordinary material objects, and then of course, physical objects in turn, as constructions, as logical constructions out of these. So that, erm just as you can construct a house out of bricks and mortar, and really, although the house looks very different from just bricks and mortar, it is just bricks and mortar arranged in a certain way, so the glass, the bottle, erm although it looks a very different thing from a sense experience, is really nothing more than a very complicated pattern of actual and possible sense experiences. He formulated a new version of Occam's razor in the words, ‘Whenever possible, substitute constructions out of known entities, for inferences to unknown entities.’ And he wanted to do this because he thought that if it were possible, if we could start just from our own sense experiences, then a great simplification would have been achieved. With Descartes he felt that our own sense experiences are the one things about which we can be absolutely certain. That at a given moment I seem to be seeing a brown patch — this I cannot conceivably doubt. You can be sceptical about everything else, but not about one's immediate sense experiences. And so if we could start from these unquestionable little bits of reality, and build everything out of this by pure logical construction, we would have shown that the world is coherent and logical, and we would have shown that ordinary beliefs erm were not open to doubt, were rational and certain. I don't know what I think in view of what you say, Mary, go into to great detail as to what went wrong with this, erm because I can cut that short because the fact is that Russell eventually admitted that this programme simply wasn't viable. At the time he reached his last book, Human Knowledge, he had abandoned the claim that you could show that the world could be logically constructed out of sense experiences, and adopted a much more Kantian outlook, in which, while he erm said that all our inferences about the world must begin from sense experiences, all that the philosopher can do, is to make explicit the premises that are required in order to infer from the transitory data of my own experiences to the enduring existence of material things and the much more sophisticated kinds of existence which their minute constituents have. I think it's therefore fair to say that perhaps even in Russell's own eyes, his original epistemological programme, which occupied a great deal of his time and writing, between erm nineteen-twelve and erm the thirties, in fact broke down. And I think it partly broke down because he was insufficiently ruthless in examining the question that he had asked. All the same, what's attractive about Russell is his readiness to admit failures, and to try and suggest new solutions. He was marvellously undogmatic, very open-minded, prepared always to have another go, if it became obvious that something wouldn't work. erm This is a quality I think which philosophers have all too seldom, and which he had in a very high degree. And I think there is a deeper sense in which erm one mustn't conceive the breakdown of a philosophical enterprise, like this one of Russell's, as being a failure. It is something I, I think inherent in the nature of philosophical questions, that probably the very best a philosopher can do is to test some way of seeking to formulate the nature of human knowledge and the relation of the thinking man to the world, erm test some way in which one seeks to render that explicit and self-conscious, to destruction. I rather suspect that it's inherent in the very human situation that it's impossible to give a final and satisfactory account of the relation between the individuality of the individual's experience and the world. Perhaps because it is of the very essence of human beings that they transcend any situation into which they come or bring about. It's the very essence of human beings to call in question every form of life, every form of thought, and to raise the possibility of thinking and living in some other way, and perhaps just for this very reason, some final and definitive formulation of the, of human nature, of human knowledge, of human conduct, is in principle unobtainable, and that the best that the philosopher can ever hope to do, is to show that this formulation, that formulation or the other won't work. Because by showing that it won't work, it liberates people for some other and perhaps more comprehensive and satisfactory possibility. So, although it's one of the most standard reproaches against philosophy, that it's inconclusive, I think this probably springs from a misconception of what human beings are, and what the possibilities of human intellectual self-consciousness can really be. After he had finished with his mathematical work and he was embarking upon that epistemological work, Russell, partly through his, the internal evolution of his character, and partly through the onset of the First World War, became much more deeply engaged in practical affairs. He had been on the fringes of politics in the nineteen-hundreds, he had sought erm to get adopted as a parliamentary candidate, he had erm taken part in the movement for female emancipation, erm on one occasion the police were only prevailed upon to save him from being mobbed by an angry crowd by being told that he was the brother of an Earl erm But it was with the First World War that his practical activities really began. From the beginning and maintained this position rigorously to the end despite very heavy pressures. The war, in his view, was entirely irrational. erm That's to say, nothing in the programmes of any of the powers could possibly warrant or justify the measure that they were adopting. And it was also at this time, erm partly under the influence of war, partly no doubt under the influence of Freud, he began to become very much more conscious of the ugly, destructive patterns of unconscious motivation, which underlie the decorous surface of civilized life. He became eventually a conscientious objector. He lost or failed to be finally appointed to a position in Trinity. He was sent to prison and, like every other conscientious objector in that war, was brought under very, very heavy moral pressure. One of the most endearing of Russell's characteristics was his courage. erm He drew from the Bible at least one maxim, I think his grandmother was also in favour of it but he certainly was,‘Do not, or is it, Never follow a multitude to do evil.’ erm This was one of his strongest principles, and few people I think have lived up to it so consistently. And from this point on, erm he, having given away a substantial erm amount of his private fortune, I think that T. S. Eliot was one of the beneficiaries, erm he supported himself almost entirely by the advocacy of various kinds of reform in all aspects of human affairs. Before looking at some of the erm details of those practical programmes I would like to tell you something about the principles upon which his mind worked in approaching practical affairs. Because of course it may seem, and very many people objected to him, that, if you adopt his sort of subjectivist views, erm you are perhaps deprived of any rational basis upon which you can criticize and condemn the actual way in which human beings conduct their affairs and organize their society. erm He says, ‘Just as what we think good, what we should like, has no bearing on whatever on what is, so it is for us to determine the good life. Not for Nature, not even for Nature personified as God. Outside human desires, there is no moral standard.’ Again, ‘Insistence on belief in an external realization of the good is a form of self-assertion which, while it cannot secure the external good which it desires, can seriously the impair the inward good which lies within our power, and destroy that reverence towards fact which constitutes both what is valuable in humility and what is fruitful in the scientific temper.’ Parenthetically, erm he says somewhere in his autobiography that the one thing that consoled him in the nineteen-hundreds when he was so miserable with his wife and his mathematics, was the devising of, was the devising of prose rhythms. And he did indeed, did he not, develop a beautiful ear. That was one sentence which I read, and it is perfect. So what he's got to do, erm if he rejects theism, if, on the basis of the diversity of human moral opinion, he has no faith in conscience or any form of moral intuition or any form of religious revelation, he's got to find some way of arguing that there can be another rational basis for the criticism of moral and social systems. And it's no good saying, ‘It is for us to determine the good life. erm Outside human desires there is no moral standard.’ It's no good saying that and no more, because of course, human desires are very diverse, and we, Heaven knows, just don't agree. He's got to do better than that. So what does he do? What he does is to appeal to what he believed to be certain facts of human nature. And in all this he follows very closely Hume and Mill. There's nothing original in this, but it is all the same, it seems to me, important and interesting. In the first place he draws our attention to the fact that not all our desires are for our own future states of affairs, desires can be impersonal. And moreover that there is latent in every human being this desire, a desire for the welfare of others. It's latent in every human being and can be called to the fore. And he talks of the, and plainly in that erm sort of mystical experience that he had with the Whiteheads, he did in, as it were, come to realize for the first time that there was in himself this desire to lead a life erm inspired by love and guided by knowledge, and to see others leading it. And he thought that this is a motive which is operative in every human being, and can be called out. It's there in people, but it can, it is only there potentially. And therefore the very first task of the philosopher is to try to awaken this deeper desire. Only if you can do so, only if you can waken a deep concern with other human beings, is there any possible basis for moral argument. And this is the sort of thing that he says, and he says this kind of thing very frequently. ‘The world in which we find ourselves is one where great hopes and appalling fears are equally justified by the possibilities. The fears are very generally felt, and are tending to produce a world of listless gloom. The hopes, since they involve imagination and courage, are less vivid in most men's minds. It's only because they are not vivid that they seem utopian. Only a kind of mental laziness stands in the way. If this can be overcome, mankind has a new happiness within his grasp.’ Or again: ‘If you try to make yourself content with the happiness of the pig, your suppressed potentialities will make you miserable. True happiness for human beings is possible only to those who develop their godlike potentialities to the utmost.’ This then is his first task and erm he devotes many pages to that theme of awakening people to the potentialities inside them, which, if they deny them, will make only themselves miserable and other people too. But, even supposing we do begin to awaken these sentiments in ourselves and other people, erm major problems are still ahead. Because human development is, in one of the many senses, dialectical. That's to say that men embody themselves in partial versions of themselves, and then, in order to realize themselves more fully, they have to overcome by many kinds of struggle this previous realization. For example, in order to realize their inward potentialities, men project upon the world a belief in God, a belief in divine commands, and at a certain point in history no doubt this was progressive, this was a way in which people could see what Russell calls their potentialities. But, once it exists, it can become a shackle rather than an inspiration, and when it does do so, one has to seek to destroy it, and thence the animus of Russell's attacks on organized religion. And so Russell, looking round the world, inspired by that feeling and conscious of the way in which old human artefacts can hem in the expansion of human power of love and knowledge, he seeks to identify what in the world of his time are the main obstacles. Economic weakness, the relative poverty and inefficiency of our societies, but still more importantly, the inequality of power. Ignorance and obscurantism. Mere unthinking conservatism. Rationalization. Self-centred, unbounded, destructive desires. Faulty education. So what the philosopher has to do is to look at these, all these various factors and begin to try and make people conscious of the inadequacies of the way in which they live, and of the new possibilities which are open to them, if they will only project their minds outside the established bounds. And he traversed the whole spectrum really of practical life. Some of his best writings are about socialism in the nineteen-eighteen, nineteen-twenty. In many ways one of his best books is one difficult to obtain, The Practice and Theory of Bolshevism, based on a visit to Russia in nineteen-twenty in which he had, amongst other things, a conversation with Lenin. It's a very striking book because while on the one hand he admires the Bolsheviks very greatly for the hope that they have given to man, for the feeling that they have given to the world that new potentialities are there to be realized if only we had enough courage, yet on the other hand, even at that point, he was acutely conscious that the Bolsheviks' attitude towards the equality of power was leading them in a fatal direction, and long before Stalinism began to take shape, he described in advance what he expected to come. Acting on that basis, the kind of socialism that he advocated was then, was guild socialism, or more popularly nowadays, workers' control, and what he would have hoped to see was something which, most mysteriously, doesn't yet even now seem to be coming to the fore, the use of industrial power by the workers not merely for economic advantage but for political ends. This is what he hoped for, and one the many things that tended to dispirit him was the fact that it was so little forthcoming. He tackled marriage. Here again he sees all sorts of factors dating from the distant past as limiting and distorting potentialities. New things had happened, the spread of the scientific temper, erm reasonably effective and cheap methods of contraception, the emancipation of women due to the development of industry, the decay of Christianity, all these various factors made the old conception of marriage out of date, and so he takes it in hand, he pillories it, and he suggests new possibilities, of which one seems to be nowadays obtaining favour, that's trial marriage, i.e. that people should experiment with living together erm so long as they don't intend at that stage to have children, before they finally decide to marry and settle down. erm The other expedient which he suggested, so far as I know, although I don't believe there's been any sociological research into this, is that people should become more tolerant of adultery, and that occasional adventures should be able to be reconciled with monogamous marriage. This seems to have encountered erm deeper objections, to judge at least by my friends and acquaintances. Education. One of this best books was written on this. erm To take just one point out of it, much influenced by Freud, he emphasizes the enormous importance to transcend the morality of repression and self-control which leads to cruelty and obsession, and fear in the name of virtue, and to cultivate instead a much more open-minded self-knowledge. Again, he tackles, in The Conquest of Happiness, the roots of human unhappiness, and sees them in an excessive introversion, in an excessive concern with the mechanisms of one's own mind, and proposes various ways in which people can seek to extract themselves from this introverted obsession with their own mechanisms. But the most important, I suppose, in all our minds, the most important illustration of Russell's practical battles, was with war. In politics just as in morals there can be obsessions with old forms of life which are now out of date. War may once upon a time have been a reasonably satisfactory, or at least not utterly unsatisfactory way of securing certain kinds of social change. Now it's completely out of date. He says erm addressing the statesmen of the world and ordinary citizens too, that his arguments have nothing whatever to do with merits or demerits of Communism or democracy. They are concerned solely with the welfare of the human species as a whole. What he's trying to do is always to get outside ideological systems, and to present arguments which are simply in terms of what we must all desire. He compares war in modern circumstances with a plague, and tries to make us see that we have exactly the same universal common interest in transcending military conflict that we have in getting plague under control, and that it's necessary to use all our intelligence and imagination to break the millennial connection of intersocial change with war, and then he goes on to make practical proposals. It's easy, it's easy when one looks at what has happened, since the days of CND, to treat this step, whole agitation as a failure. Once again he went to prison for a short time. But I don't think that he himself would see it as a failure at all. What he thought himself to be doing, he, was simply to focus public attention on this matter. He didn't believe that he could start a movement which would lead directly to the abolition of British erm armaments, the rejection of the atomic bomb or anything of that kind. What he wanted to do was to publicize erm the whole issue, and it was for this purpose that he joined in these campaigns. I think he realized that what he might call the party of reason, that's to say the party of those who don't see things in terms of ideological shibboleths, but in terms of the long-run interests of humanity, can't become a party of action. What he hoped to build up, to activate, was a climate of opinion throughout the world in which the armaments of the powers, based upon ideological arguments, would appear to be absurd. And it was a, a fabulous tribute to his personality, and the, the sharpness of his mind, that he was able to get, at one time, Dulles on the one hand and Khrushchev on the other, to answer him with open letters in a debate upon this issue. It is remarkable, when you think of what most of us philosophers are like, that he should have had the sheer ability and integrity to elicit such a response from people of such political eminence. Looking back on all this, is one to judge him as having been a success or a failure? Obviously it's terribly difficult, in a matter of such controversiality as philosophy, to find any criteria by which success or failure can be assessed. As far as his moral and social criticism are concerned, one can at least say, that in very many points to do with education and marriage and the like, his side has won. There are no means that I know of, perhaps some social scientists present could suggest some, by means of which you could actually assess just what sort of a contribution he made. One rough index, however, is the success of his books. All of them, as you can say, reprinted a very large number of times, even when they seemed to be dated, over the last three decades. His epistemology, I have suggested, was even in his own terms a failure, but I've suggested also that failure isn't to be judged there in a naive way. There's no doubt that by revivifying the programme of Descartes and Hume in an extremely forceful and effective way, and arming it with new logical weapons, he did make a very substantial contribution to the theory of knowledge and activated the thinking of a lot of other people. I don't think he introduced any really new ideas, and what he did suggest hasn't lasted, but still, in its way, it was effective. In mathematics and logic, as I have suggested, his work was one of real and permanent originality, which nobody can question. How then, finally, about his work on religion and morality? Of all things, I suppose this is the most difficult to assess, just because the standards for measuring are so controversial. One can ask at least, did he succeed by his own standards? And I suppose that means, did he manage to live his ideas out? And, at least as far as morality is concerned, I think, yes. erm He had just the qualities that he advocated. He was extraordinarily courageous and zestful, extremely generous, ready to pursue his convictions to the limit, even at great cost to himself. erm A loyal friend, as well as an extremely amusing one, he seems to me to have lived remarkably well up to the standards that he set himself. But finally, erm how about his erm religious history? In a remarkable letter which he wrote in nineteen-eighteen, he said, ‘I must, before I die, find some way to say the essential thing that is in me, that I have never said yet, a thing that is not love, or hate, or pity, or scorn, but the very breath of life, fierce and coming from far away, bringing into human life the vastness and the fearful passionless force of non-human things.’ Well, did he ever find a way of doing that? You will notice that there is, in the wording of that letter, something curious. ‘The breath of life, fierce and coming from far away, bringing into human life the vastness and the fearful passionless force of non-human things.’ ‘Fearful’, ‘fierce’. And frequently, at the end of his life as much as in A Free Man's Worship, you find him talking about nature in these highly personalized terms. Did he ever transcend this somewhat romanticized attitude towards the universe, which did conflict with his own avowed scientific naturalism? Did he ever come not merely to see as a possibility but actually to possess a conviction of what can be called the benign indifference of the universe? Personally, I don't think that he ever did. And I think that in this sense his life was a failure, that he was never able to live up to his scientific naturalism, that he was never able to integrate his romantic nature with his view of the nature of the universe. In a conversation with the wife of his biographer, Alan Wood, erm who had drawn his attention to some injustice in the world, he said, ‘But the universe is unjust.’ There he is, saying the universe is unjust. What can that mean, if you really believe in scientific naturalism? ‘The secret of happiness is to face the fact that the world is horrible, horrible, horrible. You must feel it deeply and not brush it aside, you must feel it right here, and then you can start being happy again.’ He is still personalizing the universe. And if I think you were to read the first two pages of his autobiography, there's a dedicatory verse on another page, I can't help feeling that you will agree with me that, in a, there's something embarrassing about them. It seems extraordinary to say, but it's as if his emotions were still erm sort of adolescent, as if there was something in him which was never able to reconcile with his intellectual attitudes. Now, of course, here is Russell personalizing this impersonal universe. What are we to say? Is that success or failure? Plainly, your attitude will depend on who you are and what you believe. If you're a theist, you will say, ‘Well, here is Russell's deeper conviction of the true nature of things bursting through the false, restrictive, scientific intellectualism into which he endeavoured to confine it, and so what we have here, when he calls the world unjust, or fearful, or whatever it may be, are his true, his ultimate convictions peeping through.’ That would be the theist's view. But, supposing we look at the same material from the standpoint of, say the authors of the Upanishads, with whom as a matter of fact I happen to agree. On this point. Now, from their standpoint the thing would look quite otherwise. They believe that it is possible for man, and that it is indeed his highest intellectual and emotional task, to survey his own being, to call into the forefront of his mind every attitude and habit of mind, of emotion, of passion and feeling, to penetrate down beneath these superficial layers, to deeper and deeper and ever more tranquil, untroubled generalized forms of the self, until eventually you come within sight of some inner absolutely undisturbed pool which every person has within himself, and which if he finds it removes him finally from the distracting passions of ordinary life, and with this rider, that in proportion as you get there and find this thing, this true self within yourself, you find that it isn't just something subjective and peculiar to you, it is something identical with the world, so that in solving your own problems in one sense, you do it by transcending your ordinary nature. If you take that kind of view, then of course Russell's persistent emotionality and his characterization of the world in these personal terms is a failure, erm something that he was never able to overcome, something for all his passionate moral convictions prevented him from really seeing himself at one with other people. And one of the things which always disturbs me most about Russell is his emphasis upon pity, what moves him so is the emotion of pity for other people. if I were in real distress, and I was told, Mary, that you pitied me, it wouldn't cheer me up at all. There's something terribly patronizing about pity erm and from this it seems to me Russell never quite freed himself. And so, judged from my standpoint, erm which is that of other ancient and distinguished editions, I would say that in this respect he did ultimately fail, but failed in the most lovable, eloquent and memorable manner. erm Three concluding remarks. I don't understand Russell's philosophy of mathematics, erm my treatment of his religious attitudes is still in the state of hypothesis. I would need to read the whole of that alarming corpus over again before I was quite sure of it, and I apologize for this extra quarter of an hour. Could I have your name please? , Harry . How old are you Mr ? Ninety two. Where were you born Mr ? Yorkshire, Morley, Yorkshire. When did you come to live in North Wales? Erm September nineteen eighteen. Where did you work in Llandudno? The er for the electricity the the council electricity supplier. And where was that station ? That's down in erm er I don't it's where the gasworks is and that's on erm I don't remember the road, the other end of the town. The gas the the gasworks and the electricity were both together. I see. Was this th during the early days of electricity in the in the area? Well the electricity er er was originally er in nineteen hundred. Yes. There when the er first electricity station was built. it was in er going order when er I came. I see. There were it came under the North Wales electricity supply. Yes I see. And that supplied the coast I see . more or less. With the hydroelectric stations. I see. How many people would be working there with you at the time roughly? Would you remember? In the electricity works? Yes. Oh with the distribution there'd be some like some like over twenty or twenty five, twenty twenty five. What was the nature Mr er er er Mr er and Mist er er his assistant was . And then there were these shift engineers and myself er and the boiler room staff. What was the nature of your work? What sort of things did you do ? erm maintenance on the engine room and boiler room. I see. On the plant. Where did you live in Llandudno at the time? Er in erm here in Road. And then er no I beg your pardon that's wrong. I'd been away after that before I came to the electricity works here. I was working in Burnley putting in a big textile plant in. I see. And from there er in I came back here in nineteen thirty eight. And should've gone abroad but I wouldn't go I er I er I had this position offered in the electricity works here then Aye. Nineteen thirty eight and I s I was here about s ten years er the nationalization was in nineteen forty seven. And I er I went then when the na it was a nationalized this station was closed down and I went to Dolgarrog power station. I see. And I was there till nineteen sixty when I retired . I see. Did you have to travel from your home here in Llandudno to Dolgarrog to your work or did you ? Oh yes I went on the bus. Er travelled on the bus. Did you? I got many a lift you know with someone that were there. How many hours a week But I st I stayed in Dolgarrog the first two years. I see. To be near hand because I was on maintenance on call you see as maintenance. I see ye How was the electricity generated in the Llandudno power station? Well er there were erm reciprocating engines and generators on a positive shaft right through. But then you see the town was on er on er on D C. And they'd be at that time they they were beginning to change over to A C, the whole country's A C now. And to get onto the grid supplied by the hydroelectric stations. I see. And so they put three sets of converters in. That was to convert from from D C to A C. to bring it er from A C to D C to bring er bring it into what the town was er being constructed for. I see . That was until the grid got into proper operation and the then they got nationalized then they they transferred back onto A C. It was to bring it into line to s to keep the town supplied through all the er cables that were were being constructed for D C. They had to bring the A C back to D C. That was converters. Now there were three sets in the electricity works here and two in the substation down the town hall. And the converters is that th the er commutators on the converters got in a bad state and er the engin the er Mr asked me what could you do with them. Turn them Mr , Never heard of it. I said I have. I says and we'll do it. Oh yes he says you you get on with it. So I did. Was it I dangerous work? No, no No? Oh no I we couldn't . I designed and made the drawings for some jigs and we made them I'd two or three men with me and they made these jigs and them underneath the sets. And then took er took the k took the tr the erm took the the saddle off and the lathe and and fitted it on top and then got special tools from Clarence Dock at Liverpool power station that I asked for,tools. And they turned these they got grooves in where the brushes fit. Now they should be be perfectly plain, straight and we got a t I got a true cut on eighteen inches with a a Mr was so so he made a special report on erm what I'd done. And I did the three sets in the er electricity works and the two in the substation. And they were a complete success. So how long were you working in the Llandudno power station? Twelve years. And where did you go from here? Dolgarrog. What powered the generators in the Dolgarrog power station ? Oh tha er that's er that's erm hydro water. I see. Oh yes that's that's er more or less well it's the nearest approach to pe to to er what do they call it? Oh perpetual motion. It's continuous the water. Now that water comes through it starts er er from er on two machines. High high high pressure and it travels thre three miles is three miles long and a mile wide and they've never touched bottom. It's fed by underground springs. And when the heavy rain's heavy er it rises you see, well you've got to put more power, switch more power on to the machines down below in the station. We've got three sets, we've got four now there was another put in wh that one when I when I was I . That that one we put that in when I was there. I see. That a Francis turbine and erm er the er generator that's a positive . The water hits it you see well it isn't like steam. I've been in steam stations as well as steam turbines a long time since but with steam you can use it over again. Yes. G passes through condensers. er and that er and then through the er through the coolers and it its got back into the boilers at the proper temperature. But with water once it's hit the f wheel on the turbine, it's finished. Yes. But it takes it er at at er with a pressure of five hundred pounds a square inch. As much as that? Yeah but you can't get speed on on water turbines that you can on er steam. Now steam there's steam turbine er the the revolutions are are three thousand to the minute. Now on water you can't get them only on eight hundred about eight hundred and ninety. Or eight hundred or n eight or nine hundred. How was the water conveyed down ? Through the pipes. I see. How many pipes ? Nine. They're nine foot diameter. Are they as much as that? Er coming from Dolgarrog from when they start Yes. and then there's big mesh wire meshes to stop any foreign matter coming through. They start at nine foot diameter. Yes. And by the time the then the er diameter's reduced all the way in three miles and the the the drop is the drop is twelve hundred foot. That's down the mountain side. The last drop. And when it hits the turbines it's the diameter's ten inch. So you can imagine what's coming er pressure's coming. Yes. All that weight of water's coming through all the time. What was the And then it goes it it runs away into the the the through the er bypass into the Con er er River Conway. Now you said the pipes were nine feet in diameter? Yes. What's were they made of metal? Metal pipes? Oh yes. How Hi high tensile steel. High tensile steel. Oh yes. How thick was the steel? Th er inch inch and th inch and three quarters. Would be Well you can see them pipes. and the then there's flanged they're every six er every er twenty two feet I think it is. And then the flang the flanges. The flanges are two and half inch and then they're bolted together er corresponding er fluctuating bolts one after the other. All the way round and those bolts are eight eighty, eight by one and half and two inch. Were these pipes examined by anybody? Oh yes. Periodically or daily ? Oh ye yes th th erm er th er the hydro-electrical engineers London. They're the consultants for the hydro stations. But you know wh what they're getting now. Er it it's easi er Ffestiniog. All that water that goes th that goes down through the machines is all sent back to top Recirculated? Er oh yes er the er it's it's a permanent shaft right through. I can show you it. It's a positive shaft right through. And it er and the pumps the pumps at the bottom are one hundred thousand horsepower. Really? That sends the water back to the top. This is what it looks like. That's the pump storage. I see. There's the there's the turbine here and there's the generator and here's the pumps. I see. That sends it back t back to the top. Th that's the dynamo there on the shaft isn't it ? Yes, yes. Yes. Yes. I see. That's very interesting . They take er they take a bit of explain If you'd like to take that to look at you can do. Thank you very much. I'll bring it back I'll keep it Er safely for you. there's no hurry no hurry. Thanks very much indeed. It's very interesting . Well in fact you could keep it if you want. No I er I can get another. No I'll bring it back for you. I can get another if you er No it's . But er it it'd take a bit of time to er if er I explained it all to you. Yes. How it's er how it's operated. You see the the inlet pipes and the outlets and this you can't see a thing of this, you ought to go and have a look at this place sometime . I'd like to very much. I'd like to. Did these pipes ever break? Mm? these these conduit pipes did they ever break at all? No. No. Was there no accident at all with them ? too solid constructions. This this is the main this is the er the station that wa was only opened in nineteen sixty seven. I see. You can take that if you want. er er Oh thank you very much. Now er in the in the An engineer if you've any engineer friend engineering friends I could explain it all to you but it takes time. Yes. If if you've if you've got they'd be able to explain that to you. Because it's all it's all set out. Er I take the the er dynamo itself in the powerhouse was erm Well they aren't dynamo er a dynam a dynamo's obsolete. Mm. They're er generators. I see. Generates the current. How how was the It's like like this you see. Er er er it's it's one magnet working a against another. I see. Is there a coil of wire round it? Er oh yes the lot. You see the out the er the rotor and then there's the stator outside, it's massive coil millions of mi thousands of miles of wire. And then there's a gap between you see. The higher the the voltage the closer that gap is. You can't adjust it, it's way it's originally designed and made. And that produces the electrici the er electrical you can't see it of course but we know that, everybody knows. You can't see it but that's where it's generated in between the in between those two. That's now it's it's it's working the is working against the power. You see you see that's the generator and these are the these are the coils, that's the rotor that goes round. I see. And the electricity's generated in the centre. This is all the apparatus that goes up to drive it. And then there's governors and all that sort of thing to regulate it, to keep it exact. To keep it in its place so all the engineers knows what they're doing. Anyway if if you've any engin engineering friends they'd be able to explain that to you. I can do it but it'd take Thanks very much a long time it'd take a long time. Ooh aye er it's it's er highly technical and I Yes. I mean I I it's a long time since I left it. There would be somebody on duty twenty four hours a day ? Oh yes. Continuous, they never stopped. It's a public what they call er Mr here used to say. It's a public service that must be kept going. They worked all night sometimes on breakdowns you know. They're inside boilers and the coal passing through you know. But now in these big new super-stations like Drax in North Yorkshire, one of the biggest stations er in Europe, coal-fired and Ferrybridge in Cheshire. You see the coal now is pulverized. The it comes straight from the coa from the er mines and it's it's sent through chutes on these merry-go-round railways that go slow and they stop over this and then it's all pulverized with heavy steel balls into powder and coal and into the furnaces it's just blown in. At a terrific pressure. And that's the furnace that creates the steam and the steam goes then to the turbines and a matter of half a million er Drax Drax power station and Ferrybridge their units are s s s half a million horsepower half a million or six hundred five hundred million horsepower. Tremendous. I used to have a little stick. cherry wood. Oh I did all my all my working days I us I used to keep it keep it in my pocket you know. And er I could yes I could hear well then. I could put it in it were only about ten inches long and I I made it and tapered it erm on a lathe, I put it my ear and side of casing and I could hear all what were going on inside. If there were a fault I could detect it. Is that right? Aye. They've got instruments for doing it now but I used to stick to my bit of stick. They used to say, That bugger's coming here with his bit of stick. He knows more about it than what we know with these instruments. how they used to talk. It was a primitive form of of stethoscope ? was this thing going then when I said that? I'm sorry er wh what were you say ? It was a primitive form of stethoscope? Like a doctor's stethoscope Yes yes. Or er I used to use them too. Did you? Stethoscopes, yes . Did you really? Oh yes. But I used to th I er used to stick to my bit of stick. I got better results than what they did with their with their fancy gadgets. What else can you tell me about er the generation of electricity in Dolgarrog? Ooh I could tell you a lot. Oh I could keep you going all day. There's some things that used to happen. Aye going going flat out you know they're er heavy rains the machines are going flat out er at the s one night I I sat I sat er all night and ne nearly part of next day at side of one of governors, to make sure it didn't shift no more than a about a sixteenth of an inch. Er if it had gone over would have thrown the whole lot out of er out of gear. They're that sensitive you know. Are they? Oh they are, very sensitive is er is those machines. They are. Er Apart from your normal work what did you do in your leisure er leisure time? Oh I'd a little workshop and used to make stuff. What sort of things? Oh er I'd made one or two little machines and and machine tools and stuff like that. There's one on t on on the board er in the er engine room at Dolg at Dolgarrog in the machine room that I made. And I I last time I were there I went there for erm well to put it fairly straight I went to consult on something that'd been done. Ooh it was all that that do in these commu commutators that . And I made them jigs and whatnot. when they come to do it at Dolgarrog when they come to want them doing I said to the to the the chief engineer I said, he told me about they were going get these commutators done here machine. They're massive machines you know. Oh he says oh I says, Well what do you do ? Oh stones made by Martindales. Now that's er that's er er a carborundum stone and it goes it fits on a jig at side of machine. Now there's the machine is g there the laminated copper er these commutators and it's on main shaft that goes right through the generator and the turbine. And they've got to be kept true. Now you'll never get a true surface with a commutator stone. With a com stone. Because it er er the machine was grinding the stone away the stone wasn't grinding the bra the cop the copper. I stuck to that theory all the way through. Oh yes it does. Oh no it doesn't, I says but you do your ow er have it your own way. But it made awful mess. And I told them about this job I'd done here. Oh he pooh-poohed it. I says, Well alright that mi er very very nice chap to deal with and oh I I got on alright with him but he wouldn't have this. So oh after I retired some years, we have a dinner every year you see it'll be it'll be coming off in December. And it's er er we go to Ffestiniog power station to have a drink and then come to er er well we've been at Royal Hotel at Betsy-Coed these last years or two. But anyway apart from that I said to Mr , he's the head over all the hydroelectric stations over this erm I said Mr li these commutators I told him doing the . Oh, he says, I never heard of anything like that. He says, Next time we have them to do at Dolgarrog we'll send for you. And the maintenance engineer at Ffestiniog, Mr , I know him very well, he came here er like you did downstairs, come to see me one evening. Oh aye he says er you come up to Dolgarrog tomorrow? I said, Bit short notice isn't it? Well he says want you to come and see this idea that we er how we do these commutators. I says what do you them with? Oh he says we a jig and er a diamond tool. that's that's no good. I says, That isn't same as what I said. We turn it er turn them I said with a er cutting tool. Well, he says he says, We're we're doing it with a with a with a er a diamond tool. I I went to Dolgarrog came for me with a car and Mr couldn't be there. But he asked me if I'd send them er er a full report of it after day after they'd done it. I wasn't doing it. I went to see er how they were doing it you see. Oh . Er says er it would that diamond tool were only sending dust copper dust. It should have been a a a sk erm a copper coming off with turning tool. And I asked the man in the engineering . I said, What speed are you going on? Oh, he says, a hundred. A hundred, I says,no wonder the er it it you've made a mess on it I said. You have made a mess on it, don't mind me saying so but you have. I said I've come all way from Llandudno to see what you're doing. And after write a report. Hundred I says d I says do you know how mu what speed I were running when I did them? At two thousand eight hundred. You want high speed and a er low cut for copper. Fine cut. Don't want to get get a lot off you can't but you want the speed the high speed for laminated copper. You know th that's the end of th . I said that I said, A hundred and you're only running at a hundred. Oh well alright and I told Mr about it. I wrote a report out for them. I says you're all er very er I says, Your method my method it's far and away in er er better than what your's is. And another thing I asked this engineer that were in charge of job. When did you start this? He said yesterday afternoon. I said, And you're only a quarter way across? When will you finish? Oh, he said, We should finish tomorrow morning. That was fourteen hours. They wouldn't count in running at night. They weren't running at night. Not tha not the job like that. There got to be somebody there. Fourteen hours I said. D do you know how how long it took me to do them? I said, Four hours. And another thing what what our commutators were eighteen inches. Yours is only nine at Dolgarrog. He got a fright. And they got a fright when they got my report and all. What were the wages like? Mm? What were the wages like? Oh they were erm er nothing like they are today you know of course. But er on standard er engineering standards they were alright. I think I'd er when I retired I think mine was somewhere about round about twenty pound. That were in nineteen sixty. Twenty pound a week was it? Yes. Today er on that job they'd be be getting about three hundred. Yes. Previously that were the average average wage for er a skilled man. When you first started with the electricity board in Llandudno Oh er what were the wages then? Three pound. That were in nineteen thirty eight. Was that a good wage then? It was then. Yes. Yes it was a good wage then in nineteen thirty eight. Was there a lot of unem Three or four pound. Was there a lot of unemployment in the area in nineteen thirty eight? Er er not a great lot. erm nineteen thirties there was. Course I were away then working, I were putting the bi the big plant in in Burnley. And then wages then for a labourer that er er assistants and stuff like that we only come to about two pound. And when I put that plant in I wanted some I wanted some well more or less labourers to work wi work with the fitters. I wanted six. There were about six hundred turned up. Really? Unemploy were bad in Lancashire in er in nineteen thirty you know. They went on their knees nearly to get jobs. Well I couldn't take I couldn't do nowt about it at all so I went to see t head of firm and Aye, he says, it's bad, he says, we don't know to do things like that. It were bad where erm Have I been talking in that thing all time? You have indeed. Mr ? Mm. C when you first came to Llandudno you were eighteen years of age as you said. Yeah oh I was er I was Can, can you can you tell me something about the Llandudno area during that time. Erm very ni and and er the Road you know with a bridge Yes. it was a level crossing there. Yes. And er it was all fields right up er . There were no main ro well there was a road but nothing like it is today. And there was a Yorkshire firm covered it covered that road tarmac or something they said, It'll last twenty years. and it lasted about thirty. before they came and did it again. And all and another thing I tell you th this this is worth knowing I've seen you won't credit it but I've seen a rowing boat in Street. In December nineteen eighteen. The floods. And the hi high tides. And these seas here er nearly met from the promenade and the west shore down here. It were flowing down the both ways down . And it was coming down the side streets erm by er Hotel er what's the name of that street? What's the name of that street, opposite Church? Street? Mm? Street? No no that's round post office. No coming off at promenade down into Street. Well there's several roads comes down into Yes. Well I saw there by the what's now, it was in them days, I've seen a rowing boat mm in there in Street. Dear me. That were in December nineteen eighteen . That's a fact. And there wasn't the defence the water defences, tide defences on the west shore then that there is now you know. No. It were more or less open tides the high tides used to come over and down here, it all used . How deep would it be? Oh I er I couldn't tell you be a couple of feet or something like that. Might be a bit more. Of course it subsided after a while but oh there were some storms then that winter. This er winter nineteen eighteen. .Dear me. What else can you tell me? Well I er I I don't know I could tell you a lot if I could just bring it to mind. What about entertainment in Llandudno? Well there was a big reunion er you know for all the m all the soldiers all the sold came back out of the war. In the Palladium after it we soon after it were built. Ooh the they had er it we it were built as a proper music hall was that you know. Palladium. Was it? They had some big musical shows there. On er the manager outside with er a tall hat on and his frock coat and the made a lot to do about him. And butchers next door where you know where shoe shop is on street , well grocers were there on that corner and th when we come here there were hams and bacons hung up outside all night. Really? All night? You wouldn't see them today. Yes all night. And Corner well er it it's turned full circle has it were when we came and then er there were other firms they did away with some part of the shop. And the corner was the Northern jewellers but it's back to again. And they were er er erm house higher up they were Italian like Italian they did coffee you know you could smell them grinding, and hams and old old style grocery shop, tea and all that sort of stuff. Oh er lovely shops were them. They were. Aye they were and er come in What was Llandudno like during the summer holiday periods? Oh it was it was full. Always full of visitors. Where did they come from mostly? Oh er the Midlands and down the south. Some used to come year after year you know. Us some used to come and take o take houses o down west shore, take take these houses for a month, bring their own er bring their own servants and er own footmen and I don't know what besides. Oh they did that the er there were er lot of wealthy families used to come here. Will you excuse me I'll have to go can you take that off ? Cer yes certainly. I'm I'm just going to toilet. I I won't I won't be a m The old minstrels you know, black and white minstrels. The they were niggers here when we came here at first. And they used to go and er th odd ones er and they used to go to the houses in the street, there were a chap er down th er that street opposite the er er the every morning. And the were another er blind man, they used to say that he wasn't blind you know and he he had er old fashioned bassinets prams you know. And he had a gramophone in. And he used to go to these houses Dunoon and them and er all the way down and around the promenade around the south parade and er and he used to go these houses with all these and then there were some er black and white minstrels in the valley. They used to go out in the morning to these houses, then they'd give a performance on the sands. And then in the valley in the afternoon. How many minstrels was there in the group? Oh there'd be a dozen or sixteen perhaps. Proper b blacked up proper they were well thought of you know. Yes what did they call that man he er we used to have them at Pierhead as well. Th er Alex Munro but that were years after. But when we came at first there were these erm there were these er street street musicians you know. They used to go and whole lot of these houses round about here have seen them. Yes. Er one with a cornet every morning down there. What else What else was there in the form of entertainment on the promenade? Oh the there wasn't much. Was there anything for the children? Er oh yes there was. Punch and Judy of course. There were always that there. Aye. What what er Codmans. Oh yes. Aye er th though that were about er and then they used to have Sunday evening conc a bandstand and the town band every every evening, and Sundays singing you know. Did you used to go and listen to them? Oh aye I went many a time in them days yes. I used to come here for weekends and I used to come home at weekend and holiday time. And then er oh I often used to go to the pier concerts you know, Sunday night, Saturday night and Sunday night because they tiptop musical concerts. The good orchestra. Ho The nearly fifty in that orchestra. How much did you have to pay to go in? One and er it were one and three into pictures. Cinema er er er Savoy and Palladium and then that other in er Mostyn street. What did they call that? Princess. Princess. What sort of films did they show? Mm? What sort of films did they show ? Oh the old time films you know like there were sometimes you get one occasionally on television now. Like Good Companions and and er these a lot of these musicals and musical comedies. Oh they were very good too. Oh yes. And orchestral concerts. Who That's what I like to see. Who were the popular film stars in those days? Well I don't know as I d I d although to tell you the truth I've always had a weakness for pictures ever since I was a boy. Going to t and I used to go every Saturday night here. Either to the Astra or to the er Palladium. And they used to tell me at home . Er my wife's mother used to say, I don't know how you can go sit in pictures all that time. Er I I us I used to go by half past five, have my tea early and didn't come out till about nine o'clock. And then I went to British Legion to have a drink. But er and then when television come her mother was sat over it all times and she used to tell me about going to pictures. erm you know Ronald Colman er he were a a good artist in them days. And Good Companions that were er, they don't make stuff like that today. The rubbish that's on television today er it's scandalous I call it. To what er they show some of the old films like they had in them days some of these circus pictures and travel pictures Now I'll tell you something that's rather remarkable I'll I'll b tell you as briefly as I can. When I one time when I was wounded in France I was on the Somme you know. Were you ? And Ypres and them places. Paschendale was later, one of my cousins was killed at Paschendale. But one time er I'd been er I were wounded and I 'd come out of er they bring you to casual clearly stations, thousands got into one I in this ward er tents and best way they could you know and nurses there and all. So near the line they're the only ones that went ne near front line. But anyway I remember one time and it er I think it was Christmas time, and there was a German they brought Germans in just same as us you know Fritz. And he were in next bed to me, the truckle beds you know. Er the next bed to me and he he were trying to talk to me and I er he and he wanted one of my buttons of my tunic. Gun buttons. The Royal Artillery had a regimental button. So I give him one here you are er I says you can have it. I says what you gonna give me? Ooh he says his pocket, he ga he got a German field postcard out. You know we had we had field postcards in all them days. And this were a er field p his regiment with his regiment on, and he wrote his name on and where he came from. in Hanover. He wrote this on p . And I had that in my pocket for years. And then when my wife died and I had to sell all you know it disa er I think er it got away with er some old stuff you know. You lost it? I think that's where lost lost it. But there a sequel to it. Long after I came to the army as I were telling you I used to go to pictures, I were in the S in the Savoy down Mostyn Street one one night I went and there in the programme there was this old er travel picture er some town or other th . And th that that night the travel picture came on and it said Hanover. And it c all come to me then. I remembered that German lad at er sat at side and I gave of one my gun buttons and he gave me this postcard. , Hanover. And a beautiful town you know. Showed all all about it. remarkable that I It was. You never got round to going over to visit him then? No I er I said er if I'd have kept that postcard it there were his address on you see I could have f I could have found him, but no. But you know when I when I c last time I came from France and I came a came across the widest part of the channel er I got done once I had a B written on my board and then they come and crossed it out. And I back up the line I had to go. But some months after when I was er I were badly hurt th that last time. I got it round here you know. In your head? Aye er and er I got to the now on the and steamers go so far up, past Le Havre at the mouth Le Havre we disembarked when we went out to France first time and we took guns and all sorts. . But coming that time I was dumped in a in a field. Thousands wounded you know, you couldn't get you into these into er huts, they were army huts you know er and taking them in er out in rain and er best best you could. But even eventually I got in. Oh I could tell you a lot about this but I'll I'll just tell you a little bit that's all. Er we came I was er the doctor put a big B on my board at back. Blighty. Oh I'm alright for I'm going this time. And they didn't cross it off. There were one night the door and we'd been in quarantine you know for th that three weeks. But that's where there's a lot more stories attached to that. He said he shouted my name out. Be ready for England at two o'clock. Ooh. And it were er early evening then. And I were ready. Got my uniform on and everything. I could walker, I were a walker. I could walk you know. I wasn't I were only bandaged up. And we crossed from to Southampton. That's th the widest part of the Channel. And night before they'd sunk a hospital ship. U-Boats. We came across in broad daylight. We got to Southampton alright. And I'd written the postcard on boat er they gave us all postcards to send home. But I er I never wrote it till we got to t other side. And I wrote it w because we there was a new Great Western I remember this quite we , new Great Western hospital train on,double engine on platform at Southampton. Wonderful train. Six six of beds. And the corridor down and kitch two or three kitchens that were we we went er I asked one of th the attendants I got a I grabbed the another chap with me we we'd come across together. He said, Let's get in here and we got in, he got into one bunk at one side and I got in to t other. Right level with the window. You know you could see out onto platform. And we went from there from Southampton to Aberdeen. That's a long way, fifteen hours on the train. And it only stopped once and that were at er unless it stopped to change engines somewhere, perhaps it would, but it stopped in Birmingham for twenty minutes and what a twenty minutes it were. They let the people in you know ooh my by time we set off I er it were like Christmas. My bunk and all the others were piled up with stuff, cigarettes, chocolates, money, magazines anything you could wish for. What They'd have given you their if they could. We'd all er er just come from France you see. What regiment were you in? I was in the Royal Field Arti Royal Horse and Royal Field Artillery. We had horses in them days. And I could ride like a red indian. Really. I used to like riding. I did that. Er on these sections when they have to er rejoin up after being away you see. What happened to your horse? Ha? What happened to your horse? Oh I don't know, you'd a fresh horse every day. You never got same Oh did you? horse twice when you were training. No . That's another story I could tell you it'd er er make your hair curl. Mm. isn't time to tell it now. But er when we when that er train I er had I'd written the postcard for home and I asked a lady if she'd post it for me. She says, I certainly will. I says, I haven't got a stamp. Oh oh good grief she says you don't need stamp. There were books of stamps all up and down your bed and cigarettes and money and any everything you could think of. How much was the postage for a postcard in those days? Penny. ha'penny. Ha'penny? Ha'penny postcard. Penny for a letter. overseas th er the forces are are all free. There no nothing to pay on them. No. What's the chapels and churches in Llandudno? Well majority er then in them days we were Welsh they are they are English, they're English erm Congregational Christ Church and then there were the English presbyterian across the road. But the majority were Welsh churches. Have there been many changes in church and chapel attendance since then do you think? Er no I don't think so. No they're very er . Er the er of course it is more or less Welsh district than they're they're very well attended is the Welsh churches. And the er there's there's er one one of them two of them had to close down. Er close and then they moved to er help other churches you see. You see there's there's the baptists in er Street, that that had to close to make way for er for all that shopping area, Boots and whatnot. That was er that was the baptists. And then there's St across the road that's very popular is St . And there are all these er singers in in er summertime special services. Oh yes erm er that was the Welsh church that closed. I don't know of any more. How long have you been here in Plas-y-Dre now? Mm? How long have been here? Plas-y-Dre? in Plas-y-Dre? Four years. Four years. It's very er it's it's a good thing look how nice isn't it? Can you tell me something about it? Is it Oh er well it's it's well ru Well very well conducted. And very well liked. And very good staff indeed. You're very happy here? The yes, they look after you your slightest wants. You only need mention it and it's there. They look after you for everything. The er they're exceptionally good. And that was a, that was a good er I didn't know nothing about that you know until they er gave me. What's that ? It was it was in the pa television. Oh yes. It was in the paper about it, er the presentation you know in er the Royal Artillery Club. Are you telling me it was presented to you by the Royal Artillery Club? Mm? Are you telling me it was presented to you Yes. by the Royal Artillery Club ? By the by the regiment not by this Club. Oh I see. By the regiment. And I had a nice letter from the commanding officer the Royal Artillery. That was nice for you. Yes. About two years since they gave me that. And it's working alright. Ooh fine er yes. I've no trouble with it. Yes. They made a nice presentation made a nice er nice do with it and then they er quite a few there. There's one at er one man in er Wrexham belonging to the disabled soldiers and sailors looks after you they come and see you you know, they come here. He'll be coming here anytime now that man. Mr he had a lot to do with this and the Royal Artillery Club here had and er I thought it were a nice gesture. Very nice. Oh it was. Yes. Yes they look after you. They do. Well you're looking very well. Aye well I don't whether I told you I had a er I went on a holiday to the er beginning of September. Did you? Then I had a blooming fall. No old war injury you know. And it made it ten times worse. They shouldn't wi all the money they spend on des designing and er whatnot and the the big shops . And then they went right across the centre of the shop two steps, no guardrails, nothing. Down I went. I thought I'd broken my leg. And I'm still under doc but I still hurt you know. I can't walk half as well as I could. No. And I were doing very well. I walked whole length of Street first day we there. And then I were jiggered. I couldn't go nowhere. No er I th I thought Mr had been here before now, but he's a very busy man you know, he'll be coming. Yes. They don't neglect you. No, no. No. Have you seen that picture? Yes. Aye. I have been looking at it. That's that's one of t . And this this'll be interesting if you er if you've any engineering friends friends that'll Do you want it back? No, no you can keep that. I can get some, get another. I go to Ffestiniog sometimes you know. And I'll be going there in December all being w It's awfully nice of you. Thank you Oh yes goes to the museum. Yes. Oh yes. Have you got to know all you want? I think so. I'm overwhelmed with that If er if there's owt else you want to know you can always come in come in or I'll come and see you either way. Thank you very much indeed. at the meeting of the accounts and the reports o an of the directors and auditors for the year ended thirty first December eighty nine and the final dividend for nineteen eighty nine. Secondly, the re-election of directors retiring er, and thirdly the appointment of the audit auditors and their remuneration. The A G M will be followed, er, directly after this meeting, er, by an extraordinary general meeting erm to propose, er, an increase in the authorized share capital to seek authority to create new preference share capital to renew the board's power to allot shares to seek authority to purchase our own shares to reduce share capital by repaying existing preference shares to make some amendments to the employee share schemes to increase the aggregate amount available for directors' fees and to enable the company to issue summary financial statements. I'll now call upon David of Coopers and Lybrand to read the report of the auditors to the members. Thank you David. Erm next, er I shall be proposing a resolution to receive the report and accounts and to declare a dividend. Then before putting the resolution to the vote I shall say a few words and ask whether, ah, there are any questions. The report and accounts have been in your hands for the statutory period er, and you've had the chance to read my statement. I therefore propose that the report of the directors and the audited accounts for the year ended thirty first December nineteen eighty nine now submitted to this meeting be and are hereby er, received and that the final dividend of twelve point five pence, er, net per share, recommended by the directors be and is hereby declared payable on first June nineteen ninety, to holders of ordinary shares of the company on the register, three P M on fourth of May nineteen ninety. We are entering the nineteen nineties as a well-defined well-balanced company both in the spread of our businesses and the geographical spread of our markets. We now generate sixty five percent of our sales outside the United Kingdom. We had another excellent year in nineteen eighty nine with a twenty percent increase in earnings per share and a nineteen percent increase in dividends per share. Since eighty two er, when we merged the two Pearson public companies we have increased Pearson's earnings per share and dividends four-fold. We have achieved this by selling top quality products and services expertly and aggressively in the international marketplace by acquiring businesses which complement and support our four chosen areas of operation and by disposing of businesses which had no obvious place in those areas. I explained in my statement in the annual report about the management reorganisation which occurred at the end of nineteen eighty nine. Although Frank has been a director of Pearson since nineteen eighty six and those of you been to this meeting in the last few years will have seen him before I'd like to introduce, ah, Frank to you in his new capacity Managing Director and Chief Operating Officer at Pearson. Frank, will you take a bow. Erm, many of you will also have seen Jean-Claude at previous meetings which he attended in the capacity as to Michel . I'd like to welcome Jean-Claude to this his first A G M as a full member of the board. Er, now to move on to events that have happened since the, er, annual report was printed many of you will no doubt have seen in the press that the same time as we announced our results at the end of March that we agreed to buy, er, the Alton Towers theme park er, in Staffordshire, from John , for sixty million pounds er, the purchase has now been completed. Erm, Alton Towers is a really marvellous addition to the Group er, which intends to develop the business further both by attracting more visitors er, with new and exciting rides and also, er, by, through their unique knack of increasing visitor spending levels. Er, we also announced at the same time as the Alton, er, Towers acquisition that Longman had acquired Rank Training for eleven and a half million pounds. Er, this company has a leading position, er, in the fast expanding field of video training products for the corporate market and that's an area which Longman has identified, er, as a new area for expansion. Longman is already one of the U K's leading providers of business education materials and will use this base to develop and expand the Rank Training business. If the early nineteen nineties are as testing a time for U S and U K markets as many people predict I'm nonetheless confident that Pearson is better placed than most companies to withstand this. In the first quarter of this year we've seen more moderate growth in those geographical areas but in nineteen eighty nine nearly forty percent of Pearson's trading ca profit came from economies outside the U K and North America and we expect our activities in these other areas to continue to grow at a satisfactory rate. Well, I think that concludes, er, the, er er, remarks that I'd like to, er, make. I've already put the, er, resolution to the shareholders but, erm er, before voting on it I'd be pleased to answer any questions. And could you, could you say your name and My name is Mr , I am an ordinary shareholder of some years' standing. I welcome your speech because you have a quite a good habit of optimistic outlook future which is contrary to what a lot of other chairmen are saying. it does, it does the company very very no chance in the following year share prices have dropped enormously. I noted you that the company bought Alton Towers. Now I'm not I'm asking is whether its shareholders could write in to apply for a concessionary ticket to Alton Towers and get a reduced price if they so wish. Thank you very much. Thank you, Mr . Er er, I've, er I just I'm just saying that, er, that, that last year er, when I made a few remarks that they were misquoted by Reuters and we did leave the meeting and the share price dropped by er, several P and we had to send out a correcting statement so this year we've taken the precaution of issuing a press release er, at the same time as er, er, I'm making these remarks so I hope at least they won't be misinterpreted. Erm as to I think I heard you say er, ask about concessionary prices to Alton Towers, was that correct? Ya. Well er we, we've taken a, a, a policy view over the years because the group has a number of er very attractive er products and, and, and, and shareholders have frequently asked if was possible erm, to have concessions in all sorts of areas and the view we've taken is that it involves a, a, a, a, a great deal of administration and that our real job is to er increase the profits of the business er,a as well as we can and then to pay dividends to the shareholders erm who will er, er, then use that money er, hopefully to buy a good number of our products. Yes sir. Good morning. My name is and, er it appears to me, sir that you like to make life difficult for the managers to negotiate wage settlements with the employees of the company I note that your salary has increased by more than fifty percent in one year. That I don't think will please John Major or Mrs Thatcher for being, er seeing you fuelling and other directors and all the directors of our public companies fuelling inflation with their inflationary wage rises doesn't seem reasonable whatsoever and I think that er one should consider this in a different light. Thank you for er, question. There's been quite a lot of comment in the press erm, on high levels of, of salary of, of remu remuneration for directors and I think it might be helpful er, if I was were t were, were to make some general remarks on the background er, of how we er, approach directors' remuneration. On the question of my own er er, er, position I think I would ask, er, in a minute to have Sir Simon to say something because er, er, er, I don't, I I, you know, I don't set my own remuneration. Er, and in general we have a, er, panel of the non-executive directors who set the directors' salary in relation to the other directors I am also on that panel er, but obviously not in relation to my own salary. Erm we have, er, access to the advice of professional advisers, namely and Co our policy is to keep base salaries at the mid-point of market competitive range erm, and provide bonus opportunities that can lift total take home pay into the upper quartile. Erm the bonus element of the Pearson scheme is highly leveraged we are very keen to achieve above-average performance for our shareholders and let me give you an example, if in nineteen ninety erm Pearsons as a company achieved say five percent growth in earnings per share erm the directors' remuneration, and by the way that's not a forecast so I want to make that absolutely clear, it's just an illustration if earnings per share increase by five percent and you could say, er, therefore we would expect directors' remuneration to be perhaps increased by five percent that wouldn't be the case at all our directors' salaries would actually halve erm, Ill say that again, directors' total take home pay would halve because the salary element wouldn't, wouldn't alter. Erm so er i i i er, I think that erm, er er er y you'll see that erm th th the the situation isn't, erm, er, perhaps quite as simple a a as you might, erm as you might think erm and, er, next year if that happened er, perhaps there'd be headlines saying Pearson directors er, half their remuneration. Erm and the reason we set this is that we are erm er the er, er we believe that this above average er growth in the in the, erm, er, earnings per share of the company is what shareh increases in shareholder value really depend on and er again to give an example erm, if you take the, the, the, the, the, the F T S E a hundred companies erm, and you do analyses of their er, growth rates and earnings per share you will find that the average growth rate was eleven and a half percent and ours er, was er, twenty, twenty percent so it's above average remuneration erm, er, er, for above av for above average performance. And I don't think I can say much more than that but perhaps Simon I hardly feel, sir, that erm erm you don't have some influence on your salaries and the other directors' salaries, I've heard a lot of directors and chairmen say that they have no influence on their own salaries. This doesn't cut any ice with me because I believe that none of these directors would be in on the board if they weren't invited there by yourself. So erm Erm well, I, I, I beg to correct you. Er these directors are the bosses of international, erm, companies themselves. They have no, they have no personal, erm, relationship with me er, I'll give you the example of one of our, erm er, er er erm, er most recent directors who's, who's just joined the board, Mr Ruben , who's the head of Colgate Palmo Palmolive, and I just described to him to you how we, erm how we, er er er er er selected him. We went to, er, we felt that we needed, er, a U S director because much of our business is in the U S with wide marketing experience we went to, erm, headhunters er, in America who drew up er, a list of sixty people, culled from their own research erm we narrowed that down as an executive to twelve. We presented these twelve names, er, to the board of Pearsons erm, the board selected three er, we kept one in reserve and I was sent out to America by the board to see, er, the two, er, leading candidates. Erm, I met Mr for the first time in the airport lounge at, erm er, er, Kennedy Airport erm, we discussed at great length and had a very interesting discussion erm, er, Pearsons erm, he accepted er, the job and h I, he has no obligation to me whatsoever and he is one of the er, members of the er, remuneration committee, and I actually take offence at what you're saying. Simon I'm very sorry you take offence, sir. no offence meant and I I really hope that you do not take offence in that way. Erm This may be out of order but, er, personal experience is that the, er, non-executive directors who were involved in the compensation made a recommendation that, er Michael 's salary be higher erm, than he in fact a agreed with, he requested that we lower it and in fact that was what was done. Well, I do hope that our public companies take into consideration inflation in the future. Er, thank you very much. I'm very Ladies sorry, sir, that if you took offence at anything I said. There was no offence meant. Thank you. La ladies and gentlemen Lord has asked me to say a few words about erm er, directors' salaries and particularly about his own. Now I don't stand here in any sense of defending these salaries, in fact I think our policy is entirely right and it is not inflationary. Ergo, we have to look, I think, at the record of this company over the last few years and as the chairman said in his introductory remarks the growth in the company, the growth in the earnings per share, has been very remarkable. The, er, credit to that goes to the chairman and chief executive and the executive directors and they are responsible for the business and it is right, in my view, that they should be rewarded for it and encouraged to take risks to work very hard on our behalf to ensure that that growth continues er, er, that benefits the, er, company, it benefits the country it benefits the er ergo, people who are working for it, it is not inflationary because we are looking at productivity and the productivity in the company has increased significantly. Now, as the chairman said we base the salaries of directors on two elements an element of base salary which looks at market levels and we ergo, have a fair base which reflects a sort of medium to upper level of companies of this size we then leverage, very carefully, a bonus scheme related to performance and I believe that is the right thing to do and I believe and so do my fellow directors who sit on that committee believe that it is one of the reasons that we've seen the great growth in this company over the last five years which you've achieved and which actually the Chancellor of the Exchequer would very glad about because it is increasing the wealth and the benefit of this country, particularly as a lot of those earnings are coming from overseas and will in, in time be repatriated in Britain. So I believe we're doing the right thing, I think it's for the good of the country I think it's for the good of the company and the shareholders. I'd just like to add er, that I didn't take offence at the question, I think it was a perfectly qu fair question, it was the, the inference of, of rigging salaries. Er right, could we go on to perhaps a less emotive issue. Er, my name's John . Could I make a constructive suggestion in this context of board salaries or remunerations or compensation packages or bonuses I'm saying that in a slightly tongue in cheek way because I believe that the majority of shareholders don't understand the differences between these concepts, as you gentlemen evidently do. Most ordinary shareholders have never had a total remuneration package and have never been part of a performance-related bonus scheme. Would you be prepared, er chairman and gentlemen to consider Pearson giving a lead in spelling out, in the next annual report the precise relationship between the bonus element and some parameter which I gather from your earlier remarks is probably earnings per share. I think this might help to defuse the whole situation which is getting a little bit hot, I've been to a lot of A G Ms recently and this topic is coming up at most and one feels that it almost may become an issue at the next general election. W would you be prepared to consider this at another, at, at a future board meeting? I think that's a very constructive suggestion and we'll certainly er, consider it er, in drawing up the er, annual report and accounts next year. Yes, lady at the back. Erm er, my name's , an ordinary shareholder for long-standing erm, it would be very interesting, I don't know whether this is possible now or maybe following on from what the speaker has said, if we had some idea of the American system which is er, I only know very little about it er I, just how that works because we have presidents and vice presidents and, er I think it work rather differently. So it would be rather interesting if we could have some sort of comparison. Would one of our American directors like to I would have to confess that by American standards the er er the, er, directors of Pearson, the executive directors of Pearson and er, the chairman of Pearson and I think that the directors of most English companies are significantly underpaid by U S standards that's not to say it's right but, er, that seems to be the, er ha the current trend. Actually, I, I didn't mean that, er regarding the actual amounts because I'm fully aware of the fact that the American ones are very much higher, it's merely the method by which they are erm My own feeling is that there is a great similarity and that there is a a base salary normally which is set on a competitive level with a target as in this case perhaps at the mid-point, perhaps at the sixty percent level or whatever it would be and that a significant uplift in compensation can be obtained by a bonus scheme, if the performance of the company as measured in earnings per share, return on capital, return on equity or any m other measure if those objectives are met. So I think that th the scheme that erm Pearson uses is er, not at all dissimilar to what would be a fairly standard practice in the United States. and people like that, but er, I believe that the, the way it's actually organized is different. It, again I have to, I have to say that talk about the company of which I'm chairman is that there is a personnel and compensation committee which in the absence of a chief executive sets the chief executive's remuneration and with the presence of the chief executive, although he's not, I'm not a member of that committee we work on the other senior executives of the company, it's quite similar to the process used here in your company. Yes sir. My name is I have been a shareholder and other members of my family for many years much has already been said about directors' and your particular erm, fees in particular. But er it, it, it er it appears to have been overlooked that, erm some of the directors who were in the bracket in nineteen eighty eight of two hundred and thirty thousand to two ninety five thousand have been increased from three hundred and fifty five thousand this year to a top of four hundred thousand. Er, you have also erm mentioned about the bonus er, can I take it from what you have said that this is profit-related? If not I suggest it should be and, er, therefore if unfortunately the profits of the company did go down in the foreseeable future the salaries of yourself and your directors would be reduced. As regards the salaries of the U S A we've read and seen about so many companies that pay sky-high for v various salaries and other schemes, we don't want that in this country but we do want a degree of evenness and I would repeat as somebody has already said, that your salary has gone up fifty six percent which is very, very high. Now there was one other thing if you would care to take it is that you said that it would involve a great deal of organization for concessionary tickets for Alton Towers or Tussauds or any others. Erm Ready Mix have a theme park in Th Thorpe Park and there's no problem there of issuing tickets to shareholders for erm, entertainment of their, their families. They d don't make so much fuss about it they distribute it and it gets on very satisfactory and people er, are very happy to receive these tickets. I think the question of turning it down, that a lot of work is er, forgive my bluntness nonsense. Er one other thing is the the share capital is sixty five billion pounds. It's true that we had a issue erm nineteen eighty five but the reserves are now six hundred and fifty million. Whether you have given this the same consideration of the increase in, er, directors' salaries I don't know, but I think y it's worthy of, er, a further consideration. Er one last thing er, do we need so many as eight non-executive directors which also to be paid? You've got five executive directors I should think that's adequate with one or two outside directors to bring outside knowledge or experience but, er thirteen is too many I suggest. Er well there are a number of, of points there and I'll, I'll try and cover them all. The first you asked again about, er, directors' salaries er, or directors' er er remuneration erm, and I would only say that all the directors are er bonuses are linked to earnings per share. Er, I hoped I'd made clear that if the profits of Pearsons erm er not only if they went down but even if er, there was only a small erm, increase in earnings per share er next year that the the directors' salaries would be very considerably reduced and I thought I'd already made that erm, er, directors' erm remuneration total take home pay would be considerably reduced thought I'd already made that point. Erm on er, Alton Towers which you brought up again er the question is where do you stop? Er, it isn't just Alton Towers, it's whether you should get discounts on Penguin Books it was whether you got, er, bottles of Chateau le Tour erm it, it requests for many different things and, er,you know, alright er, it we could, we could, if Alton Towers seemed to be what, er, all shareholders wanted er, perhaps we, we could consider that but, but, but we do have a number of a attractive products. Erm er your third point was about the balance sheet and I think I'd ask the finance director Yes we, we will give consideration to that of course erm Sorry, can I Apologies. Erm we will, course we will give consideration to erm a further issue which I think is what you were asking us to do. All that does, in effect, as you know is i i is reduce the unit price share price, it has no other effect erm a and I think it's purely cosmetic myself and nowadays I think a share price of around seven hundred P which is, er where the shares are currently hovering, is not e enormously disproportionate but of course we'll keep it under consideration. Erm and your last point was about, erm, er the number of directors and particularly er, outside directors, non-executive directors. Well all I can say is that, erm Sir Simon was being extremely modest when he said that the development of this company er, has been due er, entirely to the executive directors. That that isn't actually the case erm the non-executive directors have been enormously helpful in, er, the field of strategy in giving the executive advice er they play a very full er, role in the develop er m development of the company and erm they also er, keep the er executives, er, in order. Who would sack me? Ch chairman, I wonder if I may just add to that I'm sure you know that the Bank of England the Bank of England have made a very strong point that on balance there should be more non-executive directors than executive directors in the company and, er it is felt very strongly that to get a good mix of non-executive directors really does protect the shareholders' interests and, er I think we're very much following the lead, er, of the Bank of, of England, erm, in this particular respect. And I think that we are very lucky in the very high calibre of non-executive directors we've been able to attract. Name, sir. On Saturday afternoon last What? Your name! Oh sorry. , same as jam! Er, it's very difficult, yes you all laughed when I asked a question last year from over there to get a capital P in Pearson because you all laughed it took twenty weeks to get it in The Times, do you remember? Right. Now we've got a company secretary he is er, an F C I S Chartered Institute Secretaries that's much better than a chartered accountant, they're no damn good as secretaries, right! And the L L B people really they're not up to much, are they? Now this chap is supposed to have constructive commonsense forensic ability, what do we mean,the police? Affability to laugh off his twenty week delay in getting my capital P! Right. Now can we look at his pay cos you all been busy on the directors' pay and this chartered secretary is really important and so that he could be available on a Saturday afternoon if he was wanted. Well now, the problem you say it's emotional shall I say it was blasphemous, it was Rushdie. Now, erm, the situation there was that my vicar came to see me and, erm, what happened was that we've got three churches well luckily, one of them only has about twelve in it another has eighty and another sixty and he said well what did he do about Rushdie? And so well I didn't like what he was doing but at any rate it happened on Sunday morning er, somebody read the lesson and it was Saint, Saint John and there were chapters and of course it was skipping about the verses all over the place, you just got fed up with verses. Right he then went to the pulpit and he said that he was gonna preach about Lazarus actually but he's a quiet fellow and he shouted at the top of his voice I'm speaking about satanic bondage! Er, Mr Yes, is er that blasphemous? er,n what, what, er, er, I think you need to do is ask your question because er Oh right to have a narratable speech is not in order I'm so sorry. yes, yes right. Is erm do we know anything about Rushdie or anything? Another point is, up in Hull in October er, somebody wrote a book about Mahatma Ghandi and he got death threats so the vice chancellor of Hull University he's in Fenners he's a director of J H Fenners in industrial. So I suggest the secretary rings up the secretary of Fenners don't say you're listed in newspapers cos industrial people don't like that but have a word with Fenners and they'll tell you what's gone on. So, what is your question? The question is can a small shareholder do anything for Rushdie, am I doing damage for Pearson? I'm trying Mm. to help Pearson Mm. not pick it to bits over its directors' salaries. Er, well thank you for your offer of help it is, er i i i i it's er er clearly a very difficult issue, there are erm, there are important issues of principle er, in, er conflicting directions it is not an easy one and erm er er er I don't er, really know that there is anything er that, er any shareholder of Pearsons is able to do about it. Thank you. Are there any further questions? Thank you. Well I will now put the resolution to the meeting those in favour would they raise their hands thank you those against there is nobody so I can declare it carried unanimously. Thank you very much. Erm the next matter is the re-election of the retiring directors and a separate resolution is required for each one er I've asked Mr to propose the first resolution. I propose that Mr J H , a director, retiring by rotation be and if hereby re-elected a director of the company. Right. Thank you Mr . I put the resolution to the meeting. Those in favour any against? Thank you. I declare the resolution carried. Mr to propose Sir Simon . I propose that Sir Simon , a director retiring by rotation be and if hereby re-elected a director of the company. Put the resolution to the meeting. Those in favour any against thank you. I declare the resolution carried. Er Mr I propose that Mr , a director retiring by rotation be and if hereby re-elected a director of the company. I put the resolution to the meeting. Those in favour any against I declare the resolution carried. Mr . Er, I'd like to propose that Mr J C , a director retiring in accordance with article eighty of the company's Articles of Association be and is hereby re-elected a director of the company. I put the resolution to the meeting. Those in favour any against thank you. I declare the resolution carried. Erm we now come to the appointment of the auditors and the question of their remuneration. Under the provisions of the Companies Act Nineteen Eighty Five their appointment er, requires the annual approval of the shareholders. I therefore propose that Coopers and Lybrand be and are hereby appointed auditors to the company, to hold office from the conclusion of this meeting until the conclusion of the next meeting er, of the company at which accounts are laid for the company in accordance with section two four one Companies Act Nineteen Eighty Five and that their remuneration for this period be fixed by the directors. I put the resolution to the meeting. Those in favour any against? Thank you. I declare the resolution carried. Well, that concludes the business of the A G M and, er it's now twelve forty and er we can move straight on to deal with the business of the extraordinary general meeting. Erm you already had, er, the opportunity to read my letter of the eighteenth of April er, circulated with the report and accounts, which fully explains the proposals being put forward and which are for firstly increasing the authorized share capital of the company creating two new classes of preference share er, renewing the board's authority to allot shares renewing the board's power to modify preemption rights authorizing the company to purchase its own er, ordinary shares reducing the company's share capital by repaying the existing preference shares er, making certain amendments to the company's employee share schemes increasing the aggregate sum available for directors' fees and authorizing the company to issue summary financial statements. Erm I hope that the, er, circular er pretty fully explains er, these proposals but, er if there are er, questions er, I would be very pleased to answer them. Well, if there aren't any questions er, I would return to the resolutions, er, separately and I would propose the first one which is an ordinary resolution namely it's resolution one, set out in the notice of meeting to increase the authorized share capital of the company. I put the resolution to the meeting those in favour any against? I declare the resolution carried, it's an ordinary resolution. Erm secondly I propose a special resolution, resolution two, set out in the notice of the meeting to create and allot fifty thousand preference shares of U S dollars, a hundred er, each and a hundred billion er, preference shares of one pound each er, I put the resolution to the meeting those in favour any against? I declare the er, er special resolution er, carried. Erm I propose that ordinary resolution, resolution three set out in the notice of the meeting to grant authority to the board to exercise the powers of the company to allot ordinary shares er, this is an annual er, event I put the resolution to the meeting, those in favour any against? I declare the, er, resolution carried as an ordinary resolution. Erm next I propose as a, er, resolution four which is a special resolution and s set out in the notice of the meeting and is to modify to a limited extent, the obligations relating to the allotment of shares for cash contained in section eighty nine of the Companies Act. Er I put the resolution to the meeting, those in favour any against? I declare the resolution carried as a special resolution. Next resolution five which is an ordinary resolution er, set ou set out in the notice of the meeting which is to authorize the company to make market purchases of the ordinary shares of the company. This again is an annual. I put the resolution to the meeting those in favour any against I declare the resolution, er, carried er,as an ordinary resolution. Er resolution six is a special resolution set out in the notice of the meeting and is to reduce the company's share capital by repaying the five erm hundred and one thousand, three and a half percent cumulative preference shares of one pound, er, each at par. I put the resolution to the meeting those in favour S I well I asked for questions before, Mr , but erm what is your question? Why is there a need, sir, to repay the five hundred and one thousand pounds of the three and a half percent cumulative pref shares it's quite a low interest involved. What a low interest share? Well this gives us the ability er, for a tidying up operation but the finance director will give more details. Thank you very much. It's helpful in the context of the dollar preference shares we want to issue because one of the factors of this very small, and as you say cheap er, historic issue of preference shares is that, er no preference shares other than those can be repaid prior to that and the dollar shares we wish to issue which are permanent shares, can be er, can be erm repaid at our option and we do want to keep that flexibility in the context of either if interest rates get very high or if the tax treaty between the U S and the U K changes to make them more onerous on the company and in those circumstances we would be inhibited by the existence of this small historic issue of preference shares and therefore it is on balance, although you're quite right there, a cheap er, source of capital in themselves it is helpful to the company in the wider sense I believe if they are repaid. I put the resolution to the meeting those in favour any against declare the resolution er, carried as a special resolution. Er, next is resolution seven which is an ordinary resolution set out in the notice of the meeting, and it is to authorize the directors to amend the company's employee share schemes in the manner set out in the circular dated eighteenth of April nineteen ninety to members of the company. I put the resolution to the meeting those in favour any against I declare the resolution carried as an ordinary resolution. Erm resolution eight er, set out in the notice of the meeting to increase the aggregate annual sum available for directors' fees to two hundred and fifty thousand pounds I put the resolution to the meeting those in favour any against I declare the resolution carried as an ordinary re resolution. Erm finally, resolution nine which is a special resolution set out in the notice of the meeting er, and it's to alter the company's articles to enable the company to issue summary financial statements. I put the resolution to the meeting those in favour any against thank you very much, I declare the resolution carried as a special reso resolution. Erm, that concludes the business of the extraordinary general meeting erm, thank you very much for attending and making it a lively meeting and, erm, my colleagues and I will be pleased to, erm meet you in the foyer er, where refreshments are being served. Thank you very much. You want me to start again? Yeah. Right erm, could you tell me about how you left school please? I were let good. Well it was nineteen thirteen, I know that because I was thirteen. You see I were born in nineteen hundred so that means to say that when it's nineteen ninety eight I'll be ninety eight, I think they did that so I could er reckon me age up more easily. But nineteen thirteen I went to this examination and it was called a Labour Examination, and if you were able to pass this examination you could leave school at thirteen. Well it'd probably be the June or July before I went in for this exam, which they didn't hold very frequently and er then I had to to pass this exam and that I could leave school in the August, Bank Holiday. So I left in the Bank Holiday and er I went to work at er , the first job, me father worked there. and on Street. And er me job there was turning sock what you'd call halfoes you know mens' socks, from one side to the other on a piece of wood, you know you'd pull the stocking onto this wood, put your finger on the back, turned it over and threw it down. And er we used to get the work come to us all jumble up in waggons, and throw it onto a bench and then of course you'd got to pick the top before you could turn it. We did that and we counted it in bunches of five dozens, tied them up with two other stock socks tied together, and when we'd done, I'll know this figure's right two thousand four hundred socks we got six pence. That's two and half pence in today's money. But but strange to relate er I can remember on you know a number of occasions earning a golden half sovereign, you know real gold it was then, the you know there was the gold coins. Nineteen thirteen, fourteen, fifteen. And so er it it was a a reasonably good wage but when I first started of course I wasn't on piece rate, you used to get a penny an hour, when we worked Saturday morning got about six and sixpence a week. And er and that's how I went on. Now in nineteen er nineteen fifteen, the the of course the War'd started and I can remember this so well because the day after me birthday er there was a raid, a Zeppelin raid on and I saw this Zeppelin and that day the thirty first of January nineteen fifteen when this raid was, I wen I went to work at six in the morning and I finished work at quarter to nine at night. This wasn't regular, the real hour was half past six until six o'clock but when we were very busy you could stop you know as long as you like nobody'd ever bother. All all the boss used to say, Well if anybody comes round th that you don't know just go and hide in a hamper. You know in case there was any inspector or anybody but er I don't remember anybody ever coming. We just worked as long as we liked and it and it was hard work of course it was, turning these socks like that, two, well it was hundred dozen pays, that's two thousand four hundred. And you used to get sixpence for that. So how much could you earn in a week? Well that's well I cou I could earn a lo er a golden half sovereign. That was it. Did this go to your, did you live with your mother at the time, with your parents ? Oh of course oh I I was only fourteen aye. Of course and that w oh I and ti and so anyway I started er work in August nineteen thirteen and er when December came around er there was a strike. And at that time the hosiery finishing union had perhaps got eight hundred er nine hundred members spread over perhaps eight factories. And er there was a er er one of the prominent factories was at . Now it er they said that this chap had g had gone to work after an illness and the boss said, Well er you've been away six weeks, he said, There's no job here for you now. He'd worked there years and years. And he got the sack so the firm came on strike. And er then they started blacklegs and when they started the rest of the firms all came as well then and I remember er going down on the picket lines and er they'd be all the members there. You know I don't know who wouldn't go. Er with the addition of a lot of of members of the public who sympathized and knew what was happening. Well they got these blacklegs and I could tell you a story about that as well. Now a man as I used to visit, older than me now, er the blacklegs used to be escorted with police to their homes like from this factory. They'd sometimes er take them in vans depending where they lived and how many of them, but where there was a single one two police used to escort him, and they escorted him what, where we what they call the viaduct. And it was a real big viaduct at , back of . And er now this chap him a wan he he was about ninety and him and his pal, they said, Well we'll lie in the, there were a lot of bull rushes, we'll lie in these bull rushes, he says, And we'll throw bricks at them as they go by, at these two police and er this blackleg. And er he tells me he says, Well we night that we were going to do it, meeting them from work it w it was getting dark of course, December, he said that there was only me turned up. He says er er and he says me pal didn't come, he said, Well, I thought well I've come here to do it, and I'm going. So I said I went and lay in the in these bull rushes and I got half a brick, yes, he says, and I saw them coming and he says and I threw it and hit him this er blackleg with this half brick. He said of course I scampered through these bull rushes, they never saw me they never caught me and they never ever knew who it was who'd done it, see. And he always tells me, he said that er he had no sleep during the night he he thought he'd killed this man, you see, he says, I seen him drop, and I seen blood. So I thought I've killed him. And er so he never had any sleep that night, well that was the that's a story about them days. How how did you feel about trade unionism then? Well now everybody had to be in a union in our factory, it was er it it it was they were closed shops all of them. And er y y and it's surprising isn't it? There was you know little firms like that and yet everybody was in, nobody nobody would ever try and er and er and er and escape paying their contribution, but there was a law you couldn't join a union till you were sixteen, that was the law then in then, but er when this strike came back and we came on strike in December, er we lads who was under age joined the union, they give us all six bob a week, the union did. Un until they were broke you know, after a week or two they got broke. And so th union er er issued er er a a leaflet affair and said that they'd be pleased to receive loans from any of the members. Would any of the members lend them any money? Now the Co-op allowed, of course there was individual Co-ops then, this was Co-op, it wasn't like what had a big Co-op. But they allowed all strikers er to have er free credit, free credit, and er well of course this six bob was what we got o practically on an ordinary weeks work, was about as well off on strike then and we was going to work you see. But what I was going to tell you about this loan and I was there on this Friday morning when we were drawing our money, and the men were bringing their their s life savings to lend to the union. And I saw one man the fact that he was me uncle don't make any difference, but he was, and and he was very religious, very Christian man,S Sunday School superintendent. But I saw him with his cap full of golden sovereigns and turned on the table and lent them all he'd got. And everyone were paid back, you know. That that's good, isn't it? Mm. Now So anyway the strike er never reached a successful conclusion, this firm had it's blacklegs and er eventually closed because it couldn't carry on. But every other factory agreed to take so many each of the men, so they'd nobody be at, lose their job. And they did. And the factory where I work I should think we took about fourteen of the men at this factory. But no man was unemployed. Was it mainly male labour then? Well it were main i i no really there was er well pretty equally divided then. And the general run of hosiery is that there is of course that there's a lot more females than males but in our side pretty equal. The finishing side, and so that was that. Er you read a lot about women in the hosiery industry not being as willing to join the unions, was that true? Well in them days everybody used to be in anyway, there was no question. All the women were, and that's true of of the hosiery industry, of course you've got a a there's a big distinction between the hosiery industry as such and the hosiery finishing industry which was then the, they're amalgamated now, but there were two entirely distinct unions, in tho Er as a matter of fact they n n they never met together. Course the hosiery union was as it is now, was always right wing and the small finishing union was really er left wing you know. But we was all in and they was er they wasn't fifty per cent organized anyway near. Now of course that's er er the story but I went to them afterwards you see. So anyway I er the War came and went but before it went I was in, went int eh Army of course. At eighteen, I was called up for the Army and I was three years there. Came back in twenty one. I don't think there's anything really amazing about me Army career, I didn't . I don't know whether I was a good soldier or not, but I went to Egypt and the Sudan. I had a good look round you know. Cairo. Er right are you? We're still going. Switch er as switch it off a minute, while I er Er i i nineteen eighteen in the Army, they er came round er asking for volunteers to relieve the British troops er on the Russian front, where there was fighting, the Russian Revolution. And of course you know there are twenty odd fronts at where they were fighting, and er they made big paly of this because er the people who did volunteer knew, there was a few volunteered, they they gave them er white bands to wear round the arm to show that they was members of the relief force you know. And so it were good propaganda this er this, people were saying, Well they're prepared to go to Russia and fight the Russians to re re you know release our lads, they're trying to capture. And er but of course that didn't last long because of course you know the story of the Jolly George, when that really stopped England's intervention, didn't it. You know that? I don't know about the Jolly George. Don't you, you should do. I well I could tell you the inside story of that but I'm not going to but I will tell the outside, the public story. The the Jolly George er was a ship that was loaded with arms er to send to Russia, to for our the use of our troops in Russia, and the sailors refused to sail it, and there was quite a to do about this because they'd got the steam up and it was ready to go but they never went. And it never sailed. And that was the real reason why it was stopped, because the the the the other dockers were going to refuse to allow ships to leave the ports with arms, and that's where it really stopped, but you never heard, you don't hear about it now in history. No. But anyway er and then of course I, we went to To the East, well we went to Ireland first, there was trouble in Ireland you know. I went to Ireland, but we was only there about three weeks. The reason why we was there b it was because er there was so many deserters in our lot. But they took what few they'd got left on our regiment to Ireland so nobody else'd desert, while they rounded the others up and took them to Ireland you see. And then so we went from Ireland er to er to Egypt. Come back through England and went to on the boat. We'd took incidentally which is not uninteresting it took us ten days to get to er Egypt, to get to Alexandria from er Plymouth, we went from Plymouth. And er the date was December the fourth, now December the fourth, and that was the day which er you wouldn't know this but er that was the day when fought er Joe you know, for the European Championship. I don't know of any boxing match that's ever captured the interest of people and it was that night, course we never heard the result, not until we got to Egypt, you there was no wireless you see, you didn't know what was happening at all. And er if you were interested in football you'd never know till Tuesday morning what had happened on that Saturday, the previous Saturday. I mean that's how communications were in them days. And anyway so we went to er over to Egypt and then it was when we came back and I I, the other morning on the radio they was talking about asking people to ring in about, I've never rang in, I never bother ring, er how they spent their twenty first birthday. Now my twenty first birthday I'd never had a copper for weeks, w e hadn't got anything, anything at all, and all we got really was the old fashioned dog biscuits. And I was in in Alexandria, and er and that was it, that was my twenty first birthday there you see. And anyway when we got back to England er we went to Aldershot, and wasn't there long. But while we were there they had several meetings because of course we were going to be demobbed anyway, and the Colonel er of the regiment he had us together and so did the officers, and warned us that when we got back to civilian life we must er beware of these agitators who tried to er create suspicion amongst the troops who were coming back, and telling them that they ought to join er these revolutionary parties. Warning us all about this, so well I thought well if they warn us, something must be good here, if they're warning us that it's bad you know. And so when I er I wen I went back to work. And there was a a a a lad who was about a couple of years older than me, he'd be about twenty three, he'd been through the War and er he was a real revolutionary, he was re and and he was very intelligent. So he started me on the on politics, and he was very good. He'd got the one of the quickest er turns of er of brain you know, he could switch from one thing to another, and he was most remarkable. He he really was. He died pretty but he's got. And he was a member of the Independent Labour Party. So I used to go with him, and incidently he was a, he was very good on classical music, although we never went into this although I'd got very close to him but I'm sure he were brought up in an orphanage you know, and never talked about this but I'm sure he was. But he was a real first class tutor. Well so we went to the I L P and er at this time we started getting er a class together in the, where I worked there was a hundred men and hundred lads, approximately. Every man had a lad working for him you see. So at this er time we decided we'd start er a little class in this we did. And we got the union to er all all they did was to help us, was to pay for the text books that we had. If you see we'd got about er twenty eight thirty in this class, and er they bought the text books and we joined a national college of labour colleges. Now you've heard about them of course, you must have heard about them. And er I think er the retreat of the working class movement s i i is from the date when the N C L C was abolished, and opt into the General Council of the T U C. You see the T U C education er department is er rises from the demise of the N C L C but of course the the N C L C was really really good, first class tutors. We'd got two in and they was really first class. I could say a lot about ho , but anyway we started this and we used to go to the I L P, and we used to get packed meetings there on a Sunday night, and s then about nineteen, course we had the general strike, and through the general strike we was both in the I L P and we were doing everything we could you know, distributing the illegal leaflets, and er newspapers that we duplicated, on a hand duplicator. And er so I spent several years in the I L P as a secretary and at that time met er the people who ran the place. He, including Oswald Moseley, he was a big man in the I L P you know. Till he formed his new party. As a matter of fact I've been I've got a book now from the library we got last week that er about Moseley and er and his daughter, and it's good. Are you right ? Yeah. There was a a s an Indian student came to and he was a prospective Labour candidate, but the Labour Party prevented him from being a candidate er because er his main theme in life was to try and get India free from you know the British Empire. And er he he was having a conference in , course with dropping out of the Labour Party, the Labour Party finished with him and didn't bother and anyw he he someone I don't know who it was, it wasn't him himself but someone told me that he was looking for somebody to organize this conference in , so I said, Well I I'll do it. And er so this student came to and I organized a conference and took the chair for him you know and er and helped him every possible way. And he er and he was really delighted of course, so he said, Well I'm holiday and I'll come round with the caravan, so I had my holiday which didn't make much difference because there was had to you know we weren't working really, and I went round with him for this week, all round and the villages everywhere. On the theme that India must be free you see. And I can remember having a rubber stamp made and every letter that went out I insisted every one should have this frank on India Must be Free. And er now this chap was , you never hear of him. Well his name was , a very brilliant man, well w he'd be nearly as old as me of course. And er I've heard it mentioned about him on on on people who have interviewed him on television. And they said he never said much to them, well he perhaps didn't, he wouldn't do because he was like that you see, but pra before interviewing him on television, er of course the War came and India was given freedom, and er there used to be you know the Sweet people who used to have a big factory on Road, was a very famous sweet in them days, I don't think they are now, but was a very good sweet firm, and they'd got a daughter cos she was in the, during the War the Anglo-Soviet Friendship er she was one of the course they'd got hundreds but she was one. And er the years went by and al all I know is that he said ooh she's she's married a London doctor, you see. So I was waling through the bus station one day and I met this girl and er Ooh, she said, I'm glad I've seen you, she said. She said er, I was at a reception in London at the Indian Embassy and when er I was introduced as coming from , she says, The High Commission said to me, You come from ? She said, And and it were , of course. He was the first High Commission for England in England, said, You come from , she says, Yes, he says, You don't happen to know Jack do you? She says, I do, know him well, he said, Well I'll, I am pleased, he's alright? Says, Yes. He says, Well you tell him from me that I shall never forget. You see that was nice wasn't it? Mm. And then he went from England as being High Commission, he went to Russia, to be the first Indian Ambassador in the Soviet Union and that were . Do you remember much about other members of the I L P at the time, particular names ? Oh yes. Oh yes I do. turn the fire up cos it's not very warm in here. Aren't you, he says he's always warm . I'm fine, thanks. And I'm warm enough. You'll see Are you warm enough in there? Can you find plenty to do? Yeah yeah, I can, looking after you. . And anyway er er switch it on. Er I l I left it on I can cut that bit out when I I do oh I don't know I'd leave that, I mean what were Talking about other people in the I L P Oh other people in I L P. Yeah. Now in this little booklet that I've got about the er er the potted history of the Cosmopolitan Debating Society, it mentions a very brilliant man by the name of W H , now I was very friendly with him because he was th President of the I L P and I was the secretary. And he was a brilliant man. I've met a lot of brilliant people and and was one. He was great. He was a salesman for the Pencil Firm, you know a big pencil firm. And I always remember he said said to me, he'd placed the biggest orders for pencils, of course in them, there were no ball pens, er he he received that from the London County Council by accident. It was di , he used to, he he he'd got an office in London, and he went every day to London, catch the train about twelve o'clock, catch the train back about four. He'd only go for a couple of hours to his London office. A b on on one day he he went earlier and he had his lunch in London, he said, and there was another man on the table and er the both reached for the salt together and upset it and there was apologies and talks and then he discovered that he was the buyer for the London County Council. So he placed an order with him for all these, and he had to come back to the factory, reorganize the factory, to meet this terrific order he'd got for pencils, you see. That was . And he s he said to me, he said er, at that time after the War, the Viennese, the Austrians, had er erected er working class flats in Vienna, something unheard of. And we'd seen photographs of these and they were marvellous, and he said to me, I should like to see these fl these flats, he said er, I'm gonna convince the Board that it's necessary in the interests of the firm for me to go to Austria, you see. So he said, But any road, before I go, he said er and my first nineteen twenty nine this was, and we went together on holiday, on the Continent which was unheard of, you know for working class people, but we went in nineteen twenty nine. We went to er Ostend, and he went from Ostend at the end of this week's holiday to Austria, for the firm you know. And er I I don't know where they've gone now but I had some lovely photographs of these flats. An then a few months later he said, Well oh, he said, I'm I'm g I'll go to Canada, he says, er I'll tell them. And he went and told them how necessary it was for him to go to Canada, in the interests of the firm. He said, But, I said, Are you going? He said, I'm going, he said, But, he said, I've got to, I've got to take the s the, this millionaire ran this firm and his name was if I remember right. He said, I've got to take his stupid son with me. So he had to go there to Canada you see and er and . And it says in this booklet that W H was for one for a period, the prospective Labour candidate for er Central , as was then. He said, but he never fought the election, well now I know he did, that's a mistake cos he did. Because he he told me about the chap who was his agent. This was before I was associated with him, was his agent. And he said but the way I'd like to do it, he says I I'd love to fight it again, with er with you as me agent, instead of, I'm sure I could win it. And i I remember going to the Empire to a debate we took with . And er I think the Liberal was Norman , you know the great barrister. And er a Tory. And he were a lot better than the Tory, and he held his own with which was saying something, saying something. But anyway, he died in his forties of er diabetes, he said sugar diabetes, and he died, which is a pity. But his son I I kept in touch with his son for years, he was an architect. He was on the Trades Council. And er he he always used to say of me, he say, Well you know er he was on the Executive, he said of the Trades Council. He says You know go ho I go home, he says, And I could never make out wether you praise me or criticize me. He said I I'll I'll I'll never really know and I think now what was he was he praising me or blaming me, he said, And I'll never know. You know it was fun though. Very nice lad. What did you think about about the the Parliamentary Labour Party at the time? Well now the Parliamentary Labour Par , what what happened was that er oh I went to a conference at the the I L P in Carlisle, annual conference. And er it was real great event, and of course Moseley was to speak in there. On the committee of the I L P at that time, and John , and then er and then an MP from , er Birmingham, Fred . One of one of one of the most charming speakers I ever heard, he was. And er it was at that time that the Independent Labour Party left the I the Labour Party. You see the majority er er at least half the er Labour MPs also was in membership with the I L P. But when the I L P wanted to lay down more militant lines the Labour Party wanted to throw them out anyway, and so the I L P-ers all decided that er the best thing to do was to leave rather than get thrown out. And which is different for today, but that that was what really happened. Well and so it split the Labour Party and the from er at that time you know we got five hundred members in with the Labour Party. And er we had our own hall in Street. Own hall. Where we had meetings, packed every Sunday night and dances, you know people more was er much more militant then, the people were, I don't know about the M P, but the people were much more militant. I mean during the er, preceding the General Strike, I know that there were pubs in you know, ordinary working class pubs, and they used to close with the singing of the Red Flag. You know amazing change. My view of the General Strike is that if we'd have had a Lenin we'd have had a revolution. The people were r they really were ready you know, I think so. Mind you some people living through that, you know George ? No. Don't you? I had a letter from him last week er er a lengthy letter. Well George's secretary at the Cosmopolitan Debating Society after er er Tom Moseley had er died, and er George takes an entirely different view of from me, of the you know. He's more right wing than me, he's a very far, he's a good socialist, he's a very fair man. But he we don't share opinions about the General Strike. He don't think it was, but I I'm sure it was. I remem remember being with with our newspaper being chased up up Road, and you know, the police were chasing me, of course I were only young I could run faster then. But in any case I'd chucked all me things in the cemetery, you know, and that's so when they caught up with me I hadn't got any newspapers. I'd thrown them away. How how did the newspapers at the time respond to the Ge General Strike? Well there were no newspapers. The newspapers? er well of course they were opposed to everything, working class, there was some er some sympathy from the old Journal, and the Evening News was a lot better course course it was, it was a Liberal paper. And it was pretty Liberal too. Er but of course there was no newspapers er printed at all then,and I've got, there was a Churchill's Paper, what did they call that? And there was our paper, the British Worker. What did he call his paper? I've got one upstairs. What ? Bulldog was it? Was it Bulldog? No. I've got one of his papers upstairs somewhere. Somewhere I've got it. You know that was i i issued during during the time. The General Strike was a was a great time. Was a great time. They could have gone over the top you know, I think, I'm sure they could, I'm certain they could. I mean you know what happened when,wh when th General Strike was on, there was er nothing entered unless it'd got a permit from a Trades Council, and you know that don't you? Didn't you know that? Oh yeah. When they got to Bridge they, if they hadn't got a permit they they had to go back, the pickets'd be there. The Trades Council it would be. And one of the craziest debates during that time there was whether to allow beer waggons over. W who who you know they they allowed food waggons through, and the the the great debate was was beer food? You know, and they came down that it was food, and they allowed the the beer barrels to proceed over the bridge. you know they were tipping buses and everything up then, you know. So was much more militant then? was was good then. Mm. And the Tr how did the Trades Council organize Trades Council was all for it. It was well up, I w I wasn't a second at it. They were a well organized Trades Council. Very well organized. And there was real real militant, they was good. Aye, and there were very few people caught you know for when the the the particularly buses, which was a blackleg firm, they used to tip their buses over. They'd never let them run from to . People had to get out and they'd turn the bus over time and time. I I've got a paper somewhere that refers to this business, I don't know where. Go on, are you, are you right? Yeah, I'm alright. Right. Well Of course came the War and and er like for about twelve years like before the War I'd been president of the Hosiery Finishers Association. And then in nineteen forty two the secretary, the very well known for a number of reasons secretary of the Hosiery Workers, his name was , he was the J P and he was er er I wouldn't say he's a a pillar of the Tory Party but he weren't far off, you, well he died. And er they advertised er for a a secretary. Well I was very reluctant to to to put in for this job, I didn't want to really, but I was you know people said, Put in for it, you won't get it if you put in. And er I thought well I won't really, and I probably didn't like losing anyway you know I I I was never a good loser I don't think, and I thought no I shan't get many votes and I'll look silly I'm not putting in for it. But anyway there was so many people and one chap who he he was, as a matter of fact, he was organizer with Communist Party for whom I've got the very greatest respect, the very greatest respect. Because er his name was Les , and he got er er and the whole family was real militant Labour Supporters at . And his brother he was in the er Spanish Civil War, he was an officer, he was a miner, but he left to join the the Spanish Brigade and er he came back and of course but after the General Strike they wouldn't neither set him nor his brother on the pits you know. And he never got into the pits, so Les and he was er was a very fine Marxist that he he he could tell you anything you know about Marxism. And and as a matter of fact he if er if ever you went to see him about anything and said, What about this, Les? And he'd say, Well and he'd got a whole string of Lenin's books, and he'd reach down and pick one and turn to the right page straight away, says, This is what Lenin said, and he said, I'll stand by this, you know. But Les was a great great bloke. But he got down the pit, after you know whe after the War. Er they had them all back like when the pits was nationalized, all these people who'd been sacked you know got back on. And so these two brothers, they both got back on, but unfortunately er Les, he was made a full time official of the miners, when he retired, full time official of the miners union. Er but unfortunately Les died. Very great loss to that was. Very great loss. And er but his brother's still alive, and is a retired miner. Aye. Do you remember many people going off to the Red Brigade? To the International Brigade? Oh yes, quite a few, quite a few. Now talking bout the Cosmo, I'll come back to that again because there was a lad there and he was in the Independent Labour Party, and er his name was Eric and er this pamphlet will tell you said he answered more questions when he spoke, and at nineteen he was he spoke, he answered more questions than any other speaker had ever answered at the Cosmo you know he got a record for answering questions. But he was a very fine lad. And he were nineteen then, he went and he got killed. Eric , his name should be remembered, but nobody now will know, but he was in the I L P. I tell you he was a very good bloke. And he got killed, oh aye. Lionel , you know Lionel ? In fact I've got to I'm going to interview him. When? Soon. I've not fixed up the date yet. And where you going to interview him? I don't know yet, I've At his er at his work? Where he is independent tailor you know. Mm. Oh I was very, I haven't seen him for a while, being ill you don't, but er, he was always sending messages of good will when I was in hospital. Lionel's a very he he he, you'll enjoy him, he'll be good. He'll be your star turn, you you must see him when you can. But, the best thing to do is to see him at his off where he works, he's a tailor you know that, do you? Mm. Good too. I've got lot's of clothes he's made me. What about Fascism in ? Do you remember Fascist meetings? They was never strong in , you'd think it would be in a place like this but they weren't. Er I remember a debate, they'd two debates, there was one on the Market Square and there was one at the Cosmo, between the Black Shirts er and of course the Cosmo platform was open to anybody, didn't matter who they were, any shade of opinion. Er no there was never never really active in . The New Party made some members when they started, but when they turned themselves into the Fascist Party er they they rid of themselves of many of these er New Party peop , was in the New Party you know. He was a very brilliant man you know. His father was , editor of the Spectator, and there was a very you know, intelligent family really. But he joined the New Party and so it er he spiked his guns for a long while. Yes, now then, where are we going. Talking about the the formation of the National Union. Oh yes, aye, that's right. So anyway I put in for this job and and there were people who who ought to have got it before me, er for instance er there was a councillor at er at , Tom , did you know Tom ? Well he was a councillor at and a leader of the labour group on the Council at for ooh about thirty forty years. His father before him was a fine man too, he was a prominent member of the Co-op. And anyway he he was one of the candidates, but what I didn't know at that time there was a real feud between the women and the men. Anything the men wanted the women would oppose, and vice versa. So of course when Tom was put up and er there was about five of us put up for this job, they was all members of that union and I wasn't. I was a member of the other union like the Hosiery Finishers. But because all the men were supporting Tom all the women was in a vast majority was opposed to him and they'd vote for anybody, and it happened to be me you see. They didn't know me. And er I got, they'd got about twelve hundred members, and I think I got about a thousand , of course there weren't two of the men that knew and they voted. Er and so I got the job like dead easy you see. I've got an interesting point that I relate about this job that when I went to see them, about starting this job, they said, Well, they never told me before I got in, they said er, We've er we've got no money so we can't pay you a very good wage, but er we'll start you off with five pound a week, that's all we can afford, well I was earning more than that, during the War, nineteen forty two. And so er I thought well I don't know, you know, I don't know And so I said,saying to my wife, Well, I said er, I've got, I'm going to get involved in bus fares to and from office, and I'd got two kids at that time and I said er, I don't know when Anne said, Well no good, cos she was a good socialist and all, and says, Right, no good letting money stand in the road as it will get by. Here, take it. So I took it, for a drop you see. But there were true to their word Well we we formed the national union that comprised, have have you read any books on that , aye,formed that about nineteen forty forty five I should think, guess, that'll be it, about forty five. And er then I left them in forty six and went back to me first love, and er it was a little self contained union. I think it was one of the best in the country, and I'm I'm serious about that. Not because I was there, but it was. And then we had a wage structure that was second to none really. We we had a cost of living bonus when it was practically unknown to have a cost of liv , which we'd had er er since er immediately after the First World War, nineteen nineteen time. We had a cost of living bonus and er our wages rose with the cost of living er every month, not every year. Every month, we got this cost of living, course it didn't er it didn't er fluctuate like it did in more recent years, but it was a safeguard and we always got increases on top of that like piece work increase and and er it it was a it was a good union, it you know. With with we got innovations that no other union, not of it's size, ever had. There was two thousand, we er you know was more than a union, it was it was a first class Friendly Society as well and it was friendly. As a matter of fact er as the years went by we got this benevolent fund and we used to give all the old w as a mat we got a pension fund I know it don't sound much now, but at that time like during and just after the War we paid twelve and sixpence a week pension to all everybody who'd retired from the union after they'd done time, and we also gave them extra grants and took them on er you know outings until a time I said, Well we're spending all this money on outings, we could buy a bungalow at the seaside and let them all go you know pensioners go in their turn free. And so we did this and we had this bungalow at Mablethorpe which is still running, we've been down, we went down a few weeks ago. And the pensioners go down to this bungalow free, and it's in lovely spot and we gave something like two thousand pound for it. And I was very friendly with the manager's secretary of the Co-op, Cyril at that time who was a big noise in , and er he furnished it for us at wholesale price you know and everything, they furnished the bungalow. Put the carpets, put everything in and er and we paid for it and they still go ad now course the national union's taken it over but when we joined the national union there were two things that er I stipulated before we'd join. And one was that this bungalow should be retained completely er by members of the Hosiery Finishers in spite of being a national union which of course has still operated, and secondly, that er nobody should go to this union until er er at least when I've finished that they should be voted for and they weren't going to impose anybody on this union, they'd vote for somebody from among their own members, which of course operated and that's operating now. See. And er I'll show you a little booklet I've got somewhere on that about the nation about his bungalow. Which perhaps not revolutionary but to me it was er it was but of all these things that er we've done lots of things you know, but the thing that I, that stands out in my memory is is that er it'd be about nineteen forty eight, there was a a one of the old members who I worked with was, lived alone and he was very ill. So I went to see him and the neighbour said to me, Well, I said, God it's cold, I said, Why ain't he got a fire? She said, Well, she said, The truth is you know we keep bringing sticks in and that, but he's got no er he's got no fire, he's got no coal, he can't he can't make a fire. You know there were only very few electrics, so I said, Well we've got this money in the benevolent fund. So I ordered him a load of coal. I went down to the straight away to the coal dealer and said, Take him a load of coal, and he took him. Well I told the committee and they were delighted and so was I. Er and that's one thing that stands out in my, of course he died, but the point is at least he died with a fire. And er I think that's good you know. I'm sentimental enough to think that's good, and er and er and lots of things like that you know but that th really stands out. I remember the man very well and alone . And I tell you one of my early recollections when I went to school, I'm going back now, was er across the way from where I lived, was a family and their name was , I remember the name although I'd only be about nine. I remember their name. I'd only be nine. And er he and I know where he worked at Brass Foundry on Road, and he fell ill. And he died. And er of course there were no pension, no widow's pension, no nothing at all. And so there was er old age pension, state, there was nothing then you know nothing at all. And so er they had to go to the workhouse you see and I can see it now in this er this cobbled street and this er cab er drawn by a horse of course, hansom cab. And I can see this er this woman with her three children go off to the workhouse and er they was crying but they were waving and then all the neighbours was out waving to them. Now that's er er a recollection isn't it? Going to the workhouse, yeah, this family, mm. Do you do you remember ever ever having long periods of illness yourself? At all? I I I only had one one illness in my life until last year. And er I had er in nineteen sixteen I had er what they called typhoid fever which now they call enteric fever you know. I had s that for sixteen weeks. And I never went to hospital because me cousin was a nurse who'd er you know got married and so she er proffered to nurse me which she did and er the then er health people in allowed me to stay at home because of this you see and I was at home and er that was in nineteen sixteen. And that's the only illness I that I ever had. And did you find it difficult managing without without the money, your parents? Well me parents they got they was alright they, you know what I mean, they weren't wealthy but they they they were they'd always got enough to live on. Me dad had got a decent job for them times, you know he, I think he got thirty bob a week which was a lot of money. But he was alright you know what I mean with the, I never never really knew want, there were lots of things that I wanted and never got of course but I never really, I could never say I wanted, and I never went hungry, not even at any time, you know. Did your mother work at all? She worked at home, she used to make er bags, you know, er shopping bags, and she was a very good machinist and a remarkable cook and everything. She could do anything, she was a wonderful woman. And er a very devout Christian who never went to to er chapel like in her later years but she was, she was a good Christian lady. Aye. And she died of a cancer and er so did me father, and probably so shall I, but if a cancer don't kill me summat else will. Erm you started work at yeah it's on, you started work at in nineteen thirteen. That's right. Er how did you go about getting the job? Well jobs were weren't particularly hard to get in nineteen thirteen and er well in any case me father worked there and he'd worked there many years so i it was the normal thing that you usually followed your father like. Although I wanted to go down the pit because you got more money you see. In in those day Nearly all my friends were down the pit. Oh really? Oh aye Cos I I thought the the pit was quite well known for being a poor poor payer. Well i i it wasn't so bad as where I er as when I went. And they didn't work so many hours, I worked er I don't know whether I told you this last time but er I worked, my normal week was sixty six hours, sixty six hours for five shilling. Was this when you started? Ah, nineteen thirteen. So when you started did you receive a wage, rather than piece rate? I I I received, it was, it was, yes that's right, until you get into the job, yeah. Five bob, and then you get on a piece rate. I I must have told you before that what we got er we used to turn and bundle two thousand four hundred, I told you that didn't I? Mm. Did I tell you that story? What did erm For sixpence. What did tu turning a sock actually involve? Why why did the socks have to be turned? Why, because they was dyed on the wrong side. Erm, you see they were dyed on the wrong side you know they were of course it was easier to penetrate than it would be if they dyed them on the right side you see, it was technically i far far superior. And so that's what they did. So how many departments would there be at at the time? Well there'd be dying and scouring and tacking sorting, trimming, packing, drying, all kind, you know that that's about total number of departments, brushing. Would each department have it's own foreman then? Oh yes, oh yes, even if it was a department of only ooh five or six people, there'd be somebody in charge. Always be a charge-hand, foreman. Yeah, was a, is a, was a charge-hand different to a foreman then? We well a a foreman usually was over more workers than a charge- hand was. You see you could have a charge-hand over er er two or three people really, he'd be working with them but he he'd be the charge-hand. I mean the chap that the management would come to and say, Well has there's this particular lot of work gone through yet? Or and he he'd know this, that'd be his job as well. I see. Th th er th did I tell you about er how I how I started at , how I left school? Taking the Labour Examination ? That's right, that's right . Yeah. Er go on, glad I've got that bit. Yeah so how would the workers, presumably the er charge-hands and foremans were promoted from the the shop floor. How did you feel ? Usually pretty fairly. How did you feel about pi your own people sort of being transferred into positions of authority, was there much resentment? Er well n not really because they had to be in the union. Mm. You see if they wanted to be a foreman he'd still in the union. So it didn't make a great deal of difference really, you know, you you'd still got er some jurisdiction over them even though they were the foreman like. Yeah and what was your father's job at ? Well he he was a a foreman of the sorting room. You know and he was when I started there in nineteen thirteen. And er th th that was it. How much would he have received for that? Well er I I his wage round about er First World War s commencement fourteen, thirty bob a week, which was a good wage. Mm. And you you were earning about ten bob a week then ? Well at that time I was getting as much as ten bob a week. S and was that the the whole wage for the whole family or were there other members of the family working? Oh no, no other money coming in, oh no. Did you have any brothers and sisters? I've got one brother, but he was younger than me and at that time he were going to school anyway. So was the s the family standard of of living reasonably high in those days ? It were reasonable, quite re , er as a matter of fact we could afford to go on ho my father could afford to take us on a holiday every year. Where about To the seaside. Whereabouts? Well we the the main place was Cleethorpes, although we was at Blackpool when, in fourteen, when the War started. Went to Blackpool one or or on one or two occasions but me mother suffered with er with her heart and the doctor said, Well don't go to Blackpool again, the air's too strong. So we didn't you see after that. Yeah. Did your mother work at all? Not until er when was it, ooh, I think not until er me brother and I were married and her and me father were together and she used to do a bit of homework er making these er kind of leather bags, Mm. you know, sewing the leather bags. So as as a youth and a child she didn't take, No. do any work to make end ends meet ? Never done any work at all after being married no, never, no. She was a lace mender. She'd been a lace mender before she married your father? She was a lace mender, yes, that's right. That's right. Yeah, you just mentioned the Wars, you remember much about the War in in ? Well,th I I must have told you because it's one of the things that er stand out that on on the day when they dropped the first bomb in I and I I and it was er it'd be the thirty first of January, but I don't know whether it was er fifteen or sixteen, nineteen fifteen or nineteen sixteen. On that particular day I I was coming home from work and it were quarter to nine, I'd just finished work. And I'd started at six in the morning. And I'd been there from six in the morning till quarter to nine. And there were two of us worked together a lad my age and myself. And we was walking down Street when a soldier was coming and he said er, You want to er you want to make haste home me lads the Zeppelins are about, you see. Well you know what kids, we kind of laughed at this you know, we didn't take it as serious. So we sauntered home and by the time just when we got home perhaps by you know we'd get home at nine, by quarter past nine er we saw the Zeppelin come over. You could see this Zeppelin. I remember this. Was this the one that hit Woolworth's, was that cos Woolworth's was bombed wasn't it ? Aye, that's right. Woolworth's and er and the water fountain in Street. Mm. That's right, that's the one. Did it drop any other bombs or? Er there was er I think there were thr I think there were three killed in Street, three people in a, killed in a house in Street. Er but everybody in went down to see what had happened like, you know to see Woolworth's. They'd never you know imagined that anything like that could quite happen so we , Mhm. well I went down and had a look at it as a kid you know. I remember seeing Woolworth's. With Did er a tear in it's side. Mm. Did it upset people or? Not really, I don't think so. It were a talking point but er it wasn't er n nobody seemed unduly perturbed about it. Mm. Go going back to before the War, erm last time you spoke you mentioned a s strike in nineteen thirteen. That's right. Erm what how how how did that come about? Well it came about and I believe this man's name was but I wouldn't be too certain, I think it was . And er he worked at . And er it was said that he he was he 'd been away ill. Well when he went back to work er they didn't let him start. And he hadn't been off long, perhaps been off three or four weeks, I I would say. And the boss said, well you know he hadn't got the work for him and and he couldn't start then. And so what happened was everybody downed tools at and come out on strike you see. And er it it got very serious. So after a fortnight, thereabouts, the union had a meeting and decided that everybody in the industry like, which of course there was only about a thousand of us any way, everybody would s would stop until this man could start at work. So that's everybody came out. Mm. And er but this was a very determined man, everybody knew that,one of these, although he he'd got probably er the the best factory in in the city. Like for quality of workmanship. The workers were good, his machinery was good. But any way he decided to s to take blacklegs. And er he advertised and got quite a few. Not, they weren't members of ours and they weren't er skilled in the trade, but hey were just people who were prepared to work any way and and scrambled through as best they could. Would they be local people? Oh aye. And er the police used to take them in black marias some of them. Some of them had to walk because you they they couldn't take them in in in any conveyance at all because er it was over what they call the viaducts, you know and the big rushes and reeds, I told you about a chap hitting them didn't I? Mm. Yeah Hitting somebody on on the head with a brick. Aye. And there was quite a few court cases. What court cases against the strikers? Yes, oh aye. Because was there was there much violence? Well there there i they used to s you know invite everybody you said to you know everybody down on the picket line, well we were kids we used to go like re to be quite honest like we went because it were you know a bit of fun really. But there were police on horseback charging them. And I always remember, now whether this is true I wouldn't know, and I don't think I've ever spoke about this before but I, thinking about it just now, it's just struck me, I remember one chap saying, Well now if we put some barbed wire across the road about two foot high, he said, No horse will jump over barbed wire, now I don't know I don't suppose that's true I don't think it is but this chap said that. So they went and got some barbed wire and they strung it across this street you know, Street at . I could remember it but I just couldn't say now whether the police were stopped in their tracks. But there was a lot of police there, there was a lot of of er pickets, you know, ooh aye, six or seven hundred pickets. We and they used to go there when the blacklegs came out. Yes, so what was And there were three blacklegs lived in er in one house in Avenue. And so every night when they got home there was all kinds of people, I mean you know say miners and anybody as well, they all surrounded this house and when the police brought him in, of course they were booing and all this business you see. Well one night he got really rough and er they they broke these windows. And at the court I can remember this as a kid, at the court, of course I wasn't in at at the court but I remember the story the blacklegs er picked out people and said they and they and they threw stones you see, through the window. So of course these chaps well I don't wether they were youths and chaps and that denying it. And er I always remember the lawyer who was acting on behalf of the union er said to these blacklegs, How would it be possible for you to see it though your window who was throwing the bricks seeing that the windows are so black and filthy you can't see the curtains that's hanging up from the outside? So you couldn't possibly see who was throwing, er the windows were too filthy. And they got off. Got off. Was the was the lawyer paid for by the union? Oh aye, oh aye. I I don't remember but he must have been. And but any anyway we got er, I've probably tell you this before, the Co- op allowed everybody to have er credit until it was over and there was a n there was a a preacher wh who er and I don't know whether a Baptist or a Wesleyan Preacher, I think he was a Wesleyan, he was a Welshman and his name was . And er he was he he he you know came and spoke and he was very very good, aye. Was your family religious? Aye, aye religious, aye. What denomination? Baptist. They they when when I was younger used to go regular but they didn't go regular you know as years advanced. but er m anyone ask, I remember me mother was a great Christian really. Although she didn't go to er but me dad did always you know believe in the Baptists. Was the church very important in the community then? Oh yeah. Particularly? Particularly the Non-conformist. Mm. Oh yes. Oh yes. How did you fell about the Church of England and the Well they always er regarded the Church of England as er a little socially and erm politically they'd er erm the Tories of course,m mainly the Church was Tories, and er like in Wales the Non-conformists was er more liberally inclined. So was there strong connections between the Wesleyan and Baptist Churches and the trade unions? Yes, yes. Well there was between this particular Wesleyan Chapel and er in our street it was, as it's practically opposite the u present union office. Yeah I think I know You know up the side street but now it's used as a as a store house but you can tell it's a it's an old establishme and and they used to get full you know. The they used to the Non-conformists whether or not I couldn't speak for the Church of England but er there'd be a lot go you know i in the evening there'd be several hundred at every one of these places, and there was, there'd be, ooh four or five Non=conformist places in in . Little place like that. And they'd all get full. Oh yeah it was very strong. Yeah, you said your your uncle was a religious man. Me fath me grandfather. Was it your grandfather? Now he was very religious. He was er me mother's chief objection to him, it was me father's father, me mother's chief objection was that he was always talking about revolutions and she couldn't stand this you know. And they said, He's alw , ah your granddad's always talking about there's going to be a revolution. But he he'd got a little mission er on the side of the at ,, I've I went with him so I saw it. But I I do you know I've been back since but I just couldn't find it now, but there it'll be , but on the side of the er at , he used to preach at this mission, there was only him you know used to preach, and I don't know how many other people were at, it wouldn't hold above er wouldn't hold above thirty. A little tiny place. But he used to go there, he used to nearly live there and er you know. He was always preaching there, he he he was the man who ran it. Ah. Was was politics important at at home in your childhood? Well it was for, well me dad was a l me dad was a liberal. Course there wasn't no Labour pen men then you know. But when the first Labour man put up for for in the area, West , 's constituency now as near as possible. Er put up there, you wouldn't know of would you? No when would No. this be? Well, probably nineteen fourteen. And er I think it was er in the election in er perhaps twenty two er got in. Previously they'd always been er very staunch liberal, well know intellectuals, Sir James , and he represented the teachers. That was, that was in that union. Very very er able, capable man, but anyway, and he was in for years, but er beat him. were he he he was a an ex-West councillor. I I don't know whether he went to jail over the job you know, in East and West . And er I I think they they were, most of them went to jail and I think did, but when he came down here he, he beat . One of his chief claims to fame was that he got about thirteen kids, you know,, but a very very capable bloke. So did the Labour Party have staunch working class support in They did yeah . In then? Oh yeah,be in , and yeah. N nobody strange well this is strange to relate. Nobody ever stood a chance of getting in in unless they were Labour. You know I mean after the after the the liberals had er lost the m main support er and the Labour Party came into prominence nobody w w you know you it'd be almost impossible to put up in and . But one one time one man put up and I don't know the reason why and I couldn't tell you the year but his name was er the Honour somebody . And he came he became a prominent Parliamentarian, perhaps in the thirties. But he got in in this, you know they moved moved w w you know would Mm. He was a barrister A barrister aye probably the greatest that's ever lived you know. Was he a liberal MP in then? He was a liberal yes. I heard him a few times, he was very very entertaining, very entertaining, nice bloke really. Ah. Now going back to this this strike erm Yes. Presumably if if all the finishing companies erm Supported us. Had had to come out on strike, then er all the workers be on strike fund, er did you and your father receive strike money? Well no no member of the staff came of strike that was the understanding you see. I mean they they stayed in to you know see the work through the processes rather than it all get ruined, because of course you know they weren't er they weren't great er individual capitalists and er capitalistic companies. I mean the bosses hadn't got all that much really, you know, they weren't like they are today. I mean they got a lot better living what we got and and and they was alright but the the you know you'd never call them bloated capitalists because they weren't bloated really. Mm. Er about this strike and er but time went on and it became obvious that er nobody were going to win only the boss like this boss,course he was he was scratching through, and so they called the strike off and every person who worked at er every firm had a meeting and they all decided to take so many and every firm took so many of the workers and so nobody was ever unemployed as a consequence of the strike which was very very good. Was this a a management decision or a union decision ? Union decision. And the union had the meeting and the union went and told the boss that we're having so many more men here and that was it you see. Mm. And that that's what operated. A very fine thing, and you know until er until the day I left in nineteen forty two they always referred to these chaps in the forties like say I was, er a as being er, Ooh he's a man. You know or f or or you know always it was that they were men cos they came from during the strike. Mm there's very After the War, well I know you did military service Aha. after you came back from military service did you carry on working art ? Yes, oh aye. Did you Yes Was it easy to get your job back? Er ye yes and n no really. Everybody coming from military service er was er got the job back there were no question about that at all, you got your job back. But I'll have to tell you a bit of my history. Nineteen er nineteen eighteen I joined the the Army, compulsory you see. And I joined up on March the fourth nineteen eighteen. And er the War ended as you know in November eighteen and er when the War came to an end the the Government introduced a form of service whereas if er we youngsters volunteered say if you volunteered for two year they gave you twenty pound and two months leave you see, if you volunteered for three year they gave you forty pound or was it thirty, thirty forty, and er three months leave. And if you volunteered for five years I know you got fifty pound for that which was a hell of a lot of money, a year's wage in some peoples' eyes that was you know. And er so er er I said to my friend, like me pals I said, Well look we we haven't been in the Army a year, so we've got to be in two more years before it comes our turn our turn to be demobilized, so we just might as well sign up for a couple year, get two months leave and twenty quid, because we shall do that if we don't. So we did this you see. As a consequence of which well we went to Egypt and the Sudan this business, we came back and er the b the the foreman's brother he ne he never liked me ever this forema when I were a kid you know, he never liked me at all, I never got on with him and and er mind you there's a long story about that but it's a silly little thing that er that I really upset him with. It'd it'd be no interest to this but er Go on, go on you see We was working together and you know a a few benches from each other and of course as I told you the the lads worked with a man. And in the Football Post er cos everybody used to have the Football Post then, not like now, and so everybody knew what was in it and er there was like a Who and Why column in the Football Post and one of these was, Who will stop County now, you see because they was at top of the second division or something like that, and the team that was next to them was City in them days you see. And so er and somebody wrote back and said to them, A Yorkshire team with the same ambitions you see. Well this bloke this boss's brother er his his his brother was the mayor of for several years, the only one that's been during the War, the First World War,. And he said er, Well ha it isn't in Yorkshire, says, Well er it is, he said, It isn't it's in Lincolnshire. And so we had a proper argument about this, of course he was a grown up man, I were only a kid you know. And er so one bloke brought a map the next day to prove as it was in, he says, He's right it's in Yorkshire. And he never forgive me for this you see because he were a big noise you know, he he'd got a big business in . And er so when I came back after the War he says er, I object to him starting, he's not come f direct from conscription, he volunteered for the Army. So you can't volunteer and then come back like that and Well that was that. But of course he he was the only one who thought this, everybody else said, Ah how ridiculous, have him back. So that was the end to it you see. Mm. So Yeah and so had wages increased in ? Ooh aye was wages increased. You know I would think we'd be the first er industry to my knowledge to have a cost of living bonus. And as the cost of living wen went up our wages went up. A but seeing that the official figures were published every month our wages went up or down every month. And and or or remained stationary but they mostly went up a copper or so every and this was er a real thorn in the side of the employers you know, they wanted to get rid of this and they couldn't. And er when I left, about seventy two, they were still every year they come to try and get rid of this cost of living, but we did er er concede that we'd only move annually. And so the wages went up and down annually like as distinct from monthly, which was a bit of a job for the employers to adjust every month. When so when was this introduced, when was the cost of living intro Oh nin i during the First World War. Was this did this occur for the whole hosiery industry not just Oh yes. the finishing? Oh finishing. Finishing er finishing only. Finishing only. Finishing only, and er then after a few years the manufacturing side of the industry adopted the cost of living different from ours but they adopted a cost of living bonus in in a degree rather different from our. How were the employers persuaded to introduce this through threatened Well action or or negotiation ? Well they never threatened any action on the manufacturing side, they you know the manufacturing side didn't. Mm. But anyway seeing that we got it and all this business and and er eventually they got it, but they didn't get it in nowhere near a a as good as ours and you know. Well how did the finishers get it Oh well they got it during the War. When things were pretty easy. I should think at that time the employers thought, Well we don't want to be arguing about wages every five minutes during this War business you know and they all got b you know they got bags of work you know that of course, don't you? No end of work during Wartime, no end of work. Yeah was this when utility clothing, was was that Pardon? Was there utility clothing during the First World War? No. No, there weren't, Second World War yeah, but not First World War. Er So was a lot, was a lot of lot of stuff made for the Army then? Oh yeah, lots of stuff made for the Army and and and they didn't know, I mean the manufacturers s sent the work to the hosiery dye- yards they they didn't know what they were sending or what they got, they just churned it all out and and that was it you know it were I could a lot of things about that. What were the what were the main major products at the time? Was it mainly just socks and stockings ? Well ours was mai ours was was footwear. Ours was footwear. What about other local companies? Well er the the majority was footwear er but there was shirts and pants and as a matter of fact there was one small section of gloves, made gloves. And there was a lot of fabric, quite a lot of webbing fabric you know. You know to be made up into underwear and garments. And would a all these companies be included under one finishing union? Er all those that finished was in the finishing union, yeah. How come, how did you get to be involved in the union after the War? Oh well I b , it were, we all had to be in the union anyway and so we used to er we used to go to the meetings a a a you know as youngsters and then when we came back from the Army we'd got to the union meeting as well. And er when it come to the election of a shop steward about in ni nineteen er I think it were nineteen twenty seven, it were nineteen twenty seven er I there were two hundred in our shop and I got elected shop steward, mainly I think because a lot more, most didn't didn't want to be bothered you know but anyway I I and so that's what I retained. And it was, were you shop steward for the whole factory or just part of the factory ? Oh no only, nobody was shop steward for the factory. but he person who was shop steward for the finishing department more or less assumed responsibility for the other shop stewards because the other shop stewards would perhaps only have fifteen or twenty, you know members er under them. So what areas would I'd got two hundred see. What other areas would there, would be involved in then? Well th th the auxiliaries would have one shop steward like for brushing and tacking, mending you know there's perhaps only be fifty altogether. And we'd got two hundred and then the dyers they were in their own union er at er at that time they'd perhaps got er er thirty in the dye-house. And we I tell you we'd got a couple of hundred in ours. So this, you becoming a sop shop steward was was after the general strike. How were you involved in Yes just after the general strike. Were you involved in the general strike itself much? Er aye but not er not industrially, you know not through the union. Er because of by this time I'd er joined the Independent Labour Party and er we used to run news-sheets off you see. I'd been to work all day and I'd been and been running sheets off all night. And then gone back to work next morning. So the hosiery industry didn't come out No. during the strike? No. And er and although it nobody could ever say that the union was politically motivated er it it's strange to relate that at union meeting when the general strike started and we of course we weren't in the T U C we were too small anyway, although I know that there's been unions with twenty eight members in the T U C now. And er anyway we eventually er ah but er the questions used to asked at every meeting, when are we going to come out and er so much so that er they made the secretary who was a J P and a Tory write to the T U C and er say that we prepared to come out when ever they ask us. And they sent back and now this is what they said to us in this letter I remember this distinctly that er if we want you to come out we'll tell you but we regard your factories as our second line of defence. That's what the T U C said. Course they were worried because they they'd bit off more than they could chew, same as you say about this like you see. S so how was the str do you remember how the strike was organized in ? Was it organized? Oh organized yes, through the through the trades council no doubt about it, trades council organized it. As I've probably told you before the they used they used to meet and meet daily, trades council. And er they used to determine what came through , they used to really, you know what came over the Bridge, all picketed and er they'd want to know what was in the van and everything and if the er trades council said, No it's not coming, it didn't come. Was there much trouble over over blackleg firms in ? Well the not not re not really, the chief er the chief trouble er arose from the bus people, you know that. They was t that tried to be the strike breakers and there was several of their buses turned over you've probably read that have you in the Mhm, yes. in the news-sheets. Heard about that. Oh aye. particularly on the road from to . What was the role of the police during the strike? Oh well the role of the police, well of course they were opposed to the strikers but there weren't er quite so many police you see and and the strike movement was strong and so the the the they didn't have a great deal of affect. I mean wh where they, anybody was arrested they mainly got off you know. Perhaps you could start off by telling me how you came into working in the lock trade. What, what made you choose that as an occupation? Well I had learnt shorthand and typing at school but erm the money was necessary at home you see, and er with my sister working there, at H and T Hornes, er she spoke for me and er I had an interview and and they put me up in the nursery, we used to call it the nursery see because we were all fourteens up there and er then they called it the cylinder shop and er my foreman was a fella name Archie and erm everything was very very strict indeed, we could not move away from our board you couldn't speak to the next one that was working by you, and er there was a fella named Mr and he was he, I didn't work for him I worked for Mr , but some you cou you were afraid to move because of this man and he he he'd stare at you and he'd look at you and anyway erm they put me assembling and it was very interesting indeed, there was a tall stand on, we called it the bench, a tall stand with a screw on the top and then to as begin to assemble the locks you had to take what we would call the body, screw it into the er little on the stand and then we had tweezers, there were, in the body there were five springs and then you had to have five breast pins and when you got the springs in you.. we have to have a plug at the back so as we could put each pin and push the plug over that a dummy plug we called it and so that was five pins were in and then there was a ball er when that, when we came to put it in our vice, we had to put the V I C E not V O voice. We had to put it in erm oh what did we call it oh dear a little vice and er put a ball, about three inches long and then er put it into the plug and erm put the cap, the little brass cap but also the I've made a mistake there, before we did that we had to put the natural plug in and in that plug there were five like aluminium coloured er pins, each of a different size and we had to learn to read the key for the various depths you see and we had boxes of pins with the different sizes in and er then put those in the plug and then push the key in and but we'd got to, we got to file, we had to file the bars and also the little brass caps to get all the edge the, I forget what we used to call it now, off the cap to get it smooth and then get it in our own vice and screw, screw them down and there were thirty two, there were three key keys to each, each lock, and er we had to file them until they were ready and they worked easily push the key in properly, and we also used to put black lead in, you could not put oil because they would have stopped the springs working and we had a little box of ordinary oh like the black lead that we used to black lead the graves, put some on the key and push that then and work it round, and that was the erm that was made it work freely you see and then there was erm a half a gross to each board, and three, three keys to each one and then erm we, we filed the various things ourselves, but then they would take that away from you and bring you more you see and then when eventually the keys had to be polished and it was only a favourite few that were allowed to sit down to sort the keys out to com to complete them you see, but it was very very interesting work and I enjoyed being there but you You enjoyed it, yes? Oh yes I enjoyed it very much but erm we had American visitors around and we had one a Captain and I'm afraid we all fell for him cos he seemed such a handsome man and he'd been a hero in the war, and he was engaged to, then to the then president of America's daughter, so they informed us but erm I don't know whether it was the truth, that's what they, they said but of course some of the, some of the things had to be cast, the bodies had to be cast and they were, they were I don't know whether you'd have heard of the Orritor I've heard of them yes . It was next, it was next to H & T Hornes and erm I, I think they used to do the casting there and then all the castings had to come into, for us to file and it was hard work but er there was erm a big bell to tell us when to stop work and that was outside and there was a big notice in the department, wait for the bell or You daren't move you see Yes that's right. How many of these locks do you think you'd have done a day of the cylinder lock? Oh er I used to, about four or five board boards a day oh yeah. With how many were on each board ? Half a gross on each board yeah, oh you couldn't move away from your board at all and it was erm Mr his eyes seemed to be perhaps I shouldn't tell you this, but I'm going to, it may be a bit humorous for you my er Mr used to send me out through the back way into street I think it is now, to wait for the paperman with a sporting book oh should I have said that? No that's all right And erm we used to work from seven o'clock in the morning until seven at night, we had to walk from New Invention to Hall because there weren't any buses and erm there were some girls, some girls worked at Legs have you heard of Legs Yes. Legs Yes. And then some at Jailside Parkses and in the, during the winter months we used to, we had a spot to meet about half a dozen of us from the various factories, because we were afraid to walk home through and that way er because men used to wait in Lane. There weren't any houses then and there was a big ditch where the canal side and erm we used to have to wait for each other, because no street lamps, nothing at all like that and er really we used to be afraid and then when the first bus ran, shall I tell you this, when the first bus ran from, from Bloxwich to Willenhall of course word got around that the buses were beginning, because the roads were only ruts, they weren't tarmacked roads then and it was certainly gentlemen first for the first there were about three hundred waiting that was a lot of at the top is it Street, I think it's that and all the gentlemen were first but we, some of us managed to scramble on, but erm then they used to break down very very often because the roads the roads were in such a terrible condition they were only ruts. This was while you were working at was it? Yeah oh yeah I didn't work anywhere else in Willenhall at all, and erm but we'd got to be in for seven o'clock and if erm you weren't in for seven o'clock and sometimes I used to hear the bell began ringing when I got to go around the corner and get into the, but you had to wait a quarter of an hour before they would let you in and that was stopped off your money and my wage was eight and fourpence a week. Were you allowed to keep that money? Oh I had about a shilling pocket money I think, although they used, they'd fine you, they'd stop money off you if you were late if you were a quarter of an hour late you couldn't go in and erm until, and then you'd got to explain to your mums, well that you were some money short you see, why is this, and we had to say well we were a bit late getting in when you started out soon enough you see. But erm I real I really enjoyed it and er to me it was interesting work and I don't know that I can tell you much more about the locks. What did you like about it? I liked everything about it, I liked everything about it, mind you I had sore fingers to begin with, very sore, with the filing you see, but also er I was used to thing in a way because there was a little lock shop in mother's yard er and erm home-made er home-made locks and he used to er and now he used to do them and stamp them and I us I worked his hand press for him before I was fourteen and they were for and they are still and my mother used to take them to Birmingham and erm I think he used to give me sixpence for doing everything I did for him. Do you think that helped to decide you to go into lock making? Well erm you see although I learned shorthand and typing it was better money and that was the reason I had to do it, I've passed my exams in shorthand but er probably there weren't enough offices then to employ a good many clerks, but erm they er it was a very big fellow who used to ring the bell and the bell was on the outside, he was named Tom but I can't for the life of me think erm what his other name was but, erm it used to put the fear through us I can tell you if we were around the corner and we heard that bell ringing but erm they, they were a good firm to work for and, but they were strict but everywhere was strict in those days, we had to accept it but it was a long long hours, but erm they knew I had some, I, I enjoyed it and I'd go back again only I'm too old. Can you describe the room you worked in, what was that like? Yes it was a big, it was a square, big square room and er we were all young people up there except the foreman and erm some lived in, one lady live in she was named, then there was another one who lived in Street she was named and er there was a Violet there's a Winkles butchers shop isn't there, Winkles have got one in Road at Willenhall, yes there was Violet and er Did you get on with these, these other girls? Oh oh yeah well there was no option, you'd got to cos you daren't speak you'd oh er friendly in our lunch break you know er dinner break really we didn't have lunch time erm we were all friendly together and er as I say er we got on alright, but you'd er you'd got to stick at your job absolutely you daren't move oh, they don't know they are born today I don't think, some of them don't. How, how long did you have for lunch? About half and hour and er, I used to take my sandwiches with me you see you couldn't, there were no canteens then, you'd got to take it was a bottle no and flasks So there was nowhere to heat anything up or anything like that? Oh no, oh no you couldn't heat anything up no, no but erm oh we well there wasn't anything else you have to accept things don't you, there wasn't anything else to do. My er my sister worked in the grenade shop and erm after she ca she'd been working at, on the manor, do you know the manor at Willenhall and then er she decided to go on with the war work and she was courting the man named , John and his father was the timekeeper, later H & T Hornes, but erm it fizzled out and anyway the romance did but erm So your sister was working there before you? Before I were yeah, she was on, on war work you see on the hand grenades, that was on the, on the ground floor, of course there were a lot of old cottages er the one at the end, and erm there was something about those oh when, when we did erm er when we did erm locks for the erm hotels there were called, they used to say no they used , there would be about a hundred keys for the guests who clocked in for the er for the hotel and they would each be given a key to the same lock you see, and they used to call those keys to pass, sometimes there was more than a hundred keys to one lock but er wait for the bell or Were you allowed any breaks during the morning or afternoon for, for tea and things like that? I don't remember there having a break, we had the break at er midday but I don't remember, if we, if we did we had to work you know what I mean, we just have I forget, that is a bit I've forgotten Mm mm whether we had a break. I know everything was very very strict indeed there was nothing like it is nowadays that I had but erm There was, there was nothing in the way of a union or anything like that? Oh not then, oh not then there wasn't a union at all. Cos started a union up, but that was after when I was working at Squires but there wasn't, there wasn't a union, a union at all then, but er there was keen competition between Tonkses and cos they and , I mean they all developed the Yale and er we used to get a lot of visitors around, and er you used to get a lot of American visitors around, but erm it's a it's a very very old town isn't it, very old because mother used to do her shopping there and there weren't any buses running, but we used to go by wagonette from er to do the Saturday shopping er Applobish used to run the wagonettes and the daughter used to drive the two horses and Did you have anything in the way of holidays erm, was there a sort of works' holiday or any works' outings while you were there? We perhaps had a works' er we had to have a works' holiday yeah. Was, was that during Wakes Week or would that be in September? erm we didn't have a holiday for that but we used, when it was Willenhall er our mums knew that we should be like going home and we used to go straight from work to the Wakes you see, which was a, it was really a good wake then but then you'd got to walk home. What was at the Wakes, what did you like about them? I liked everything about Wakes. Then I used to go dancing down at down the and I'd strict orders to get in on a Saturday night early, but it was always eleven o'clock walking on my own back. What, what, what was at the Wakes? Were there carousels and things like that? Oh yes, oh yes much as they are now and the big horse we used to call them the big horses you know and er shows and that, all, they used to, Willenhall Wakes used to be fine really good, and er that was down in the Lane somewhere there. Do you know Lane? Somewhere there, but off the wouldn't it be but erm it was an event erm when I had a rise in wages my mother being a dressmaker she used to have a machine under the little front window and when I got a, I had a, they'd put my wages up to ten shillings, and when I got in mum came over and said what's the matter with you she said you seem as if you're walking on air I said I'd had a rise in wages and it was up from eight and four pence up to ten shillings I don't know what that seems but still. Did you, did you keep the increase or did? Oh no no oh no I wouldn't do that. So it was still just a shilling, shilling pocket money? Yeah yeah yeah I had a shilling pocket money and out of that I saved up for a bike. The Wakes were very popular were they? Oh yes yes. I've never seen one so Oh they were, haven't you ever been to Wakes? They were but it, well it was an event, a big event in, in the, among the younger people anyway in Brooks in Willenhall then and er it was really lovely, really lovely I forget if we had to pay to go in, but er we had er we saved up for a good few weeks before, so that we would have some money to spend at the Wakes it was one of the an event of the year then, but erm I used to like Willenhall Wakes and er I used to go dancing a lot well I was allowed to go dancing cos I've always loved singing and dancing you see and er I was allowed but I had to be home before my father got home, but I wasn't always. Can, can you remember the markets in Willenhall? Oh yes Dan used to stand outside calling er get your nice steak or get your nice egg bun and all this, they mostly had barkers, and it was competition you see between the, there was er Smiths the pork butchers, erm Cliffs the pork butchers, that was nearly by McMillans that were I forget and there used to be Olivers shoe shop round there and a Mr used to erm I don't know whether you've heard of Percy , no, and erm his father used to manage it and erm behind the Angel Alley you know the Angel Alley, well that was down shop there, and then there were several maid shops and there was the erm grocers, that's er before you turn o that's on the same side as Street, it, is it, is it Moors in Street, there's a hardware shop on the corner now straight in the market place? Homebase, Homebase yes Yes and erm Thornleys used to be next to it, and it, to see him patting the butter you know and with all the fancy things in the window they would be doing it and er everything was parcelled up then, into brown paper and strong brown, sometimes there would be a bag of sweets pushed in as well for the children. How often did the markets take place, was it every week? Oh yes, oh yes, oh mum went there for years and years every Saturday yeah, and as I say the wagonettes used to erm be stationed up by Albion Street, to take er shopping and, and er and Rushbrooks used to be the big confectioners then, that's on the, it used to be on the corner of erm Albion, well there's a market there, an indoor market now isn't there yeah they were the er the big confectioners Rushbrooks, and er bakers and confectioners and er all the barrels of flour used to be, you could see all that going in you know but er I don't know whether it is, am I making it interesting, is it interesting for you? It's fascinating yes. Were the markets, erm were there a lot of stalls in the markets? Oh yes, oh yes each side and er there, some, a few came round erm where it used to be the old picture house, a few came around up as far as Rushbrooks and erm further up towards erm now then The Central, there's a school that they used to call it The Central but erm Up, up you mean, I know, yes Yeah, yeah but er it, it, there isn't a, I haven't known anything else like it on the Walsall market. Right were they open late on a Saturday? Eleven o'clock, there weren't restrictions then on, they could keep open as long as they liked, no restrictions on, on time, and er as I say their own place you know it really it was picturesque, I thought in since erm I contacted you I've been thinking how, what I could help with and er what I could still think about, and er it was really a sight because to walk and it always used to be crowded, well it was one of the best markets round here and er people used to go off and from Bloxwich and er although there's a good market at Walsall there wasn't a Bloxwich market then sadly for years and years, but erm and then if you went to Wolverhampton you got to walk through Windsfield you got to er walk everywhere you went then and except on a Saturday night when the wagonettes used to run on a Saturday but it was amazing to see the girl behind the range now controlling to I, I, I've heard in Birmingham that people used to wait until quite late on a Saturday night to get Oh to get your bargains oh yes they wouldn't, there weren't really good fridges in those days, there was co col cold rooms but erm they would be glad to get rid of the meat that they'd already got cut up you see, and the barker, they used to call them the barkers, standing outside you see and get your fresh meat and so on, so on, so on, so you know and er to get the custom in you see, oh there was real competition between the barkers and there were barkers standing in road. Right you left erm Bourns when you were eighteen? Eighteen yeah. Why was that? The work had dropped off yeah, and then I were on the, on the labour for a short time and erm then I got a job next door to where I lived, straight next door. That was was it? yes yes yes. And what sort of work did you do there? The till, the till locks, and erm we used to assemble those as well and er it was a fortunate one who used to do the lacquering, there was a big er big erm heated table and er it was easy work to do the lacquering you see and you used to have to put them on the top of the heated tower to dry before they were packed to go away, but erm they were, it was a hard place to work for but er the one son Mr he was always in London and er this isn't being recorded now is it, is it? It was quite strict then was it at er? Oh they were very strict Yes if erm two girls were in a toilet you were fined and they used to stop the money, oh yes two girls were fined it was a very strict there it was er quite as strict there as it was a H & T Hornes and erm you, you but you could have a drink there, but er at one time before they allowed a drink, a cup of tea, the men used to, someone to watch to see if, when we were working in the top shop cos we could see if anyone came up the, up the shop into, from the bottom shop into top shop then they put a can on erm on something to boil you see and er oh and we got a little sto coal stove to heat the shop, no central heating pipes or anything like that, and they put er someone you could see anyone coming up the, up the steps and er anyway there was someone, one of the bosses coming up so they erm whipped the can off, ran round the back of the bench wh where there were a lot of hand presses going and Mr walked straight he was only mad that off the can of boiling water Was, was that because you weren't allowed to ? We weren't allowed to have a we weren't allowed to have a cup of tea in break time no but er we were all on edge you know for fear, if he kicked it it would have scalded his foot and he were, he were only a few inches away from it, and of course he went now what we used to say now nosing around and we shouldn't have done he had a job to get round because he was Did, did, did, did they have the union in there at all or ? Have what dear? Have a union at . Erm they began the union just before I left Bellany and of course it was cried down and erm they had meetings and the lot, and then all the miners were on strike at the time, and er my father and brother were both miners and er my brother was very friendly with Mr and Mr next door and er anyway er we decided to come out on strike for Bellany's union and of course erm they, the, one, I think it was Mr said Joey he said er did you know we're out on strike here and my brother said it seemed to be catching doesn't it he didn't say he couldn't say I worked there you see but erm it, it caused an upset but still up to a point the unions were good because we're all badly underpaid for what we did, and the hours we worked they wouldn't tolerate it nowadays, but erm I forget er I joined the union and if you didn't you were a blackleg you know you, they wanted you to join the union from then I've been in the union all, until I finished work but erm they, they got us our rises and er as I say the, the money wasn't er very good and then the union did fight for the rises and they'd got to pay it or lose all the er employees but erm I was, I was satisfied with without it, I've been satisfied with my life you know I've had, there's been humorous there's been sad but erm I'm still able to get around and that's the main thing. What, what was that, that first strike over, was it pay? Yeah oh yeah. It was pay? Well they didn't want to recognize I recognize the union you see and when, when everyone really knew what we should be having and what were paying, and of course erm it caused a bit of bitterness and resentment against those who wouldn't join, but er that, that's what causes the trouble nowadays isn't it and it's, it's a sad thing really, but on the whole erm I've enjoyed everyw everywhere I've been. What was, was there a shop steward elected from amongst you or somebody to? Well we never heard the name shop steward in those days I don't think they went that far, there was somebody in charge sort of thing but erm they er got the na the name afterwards I think you know shop steward, but er and then they used to be Miss used to have the garden fetes the garden parties on her lawn, that was for the Liberal Party you see as soon Labour was mentioned there were only Tories and Liberals at that time and er we used to, when there was an election er we used to wait up for the results and then if the Liberals got in Squires' big bell would be rung if it was twelve o'clock at night or one o'clock in the morning the Squires' big bell would be rung you see, to say who'd got in, if the Tories got in it wasn't rung because it was a, Squires were Liberals, strong Liberals and er they used to attend the Liberal Club at Shortheath but erm there used to be some fun in those er what's the name parade if the Liberals got in and dances you know to raise money for the various things, and the garden fetes used to be lovely but er on their lawn. Where, where did they live? they live in the, a beautiful house, a little house, old, very old and erm they always said there was a secret passage underneath and my, my uncle er used to er he used, he named, he named some locks, my uncle did a till lock and when I star began to work there er they were called Salmon Baits and er Mr said to me you know he said er it's your un they used to call him Trot, my uncle, it's your uncle Trot that named them and I said was it and it was a till lock and they couldn't get them right er they were having trouble with these particular till locks, and er my uncle said to Mr when he went around they were having trouble and he said, all these locks all these things are good for a bait for Salmon and then they were called Salmon Bait and they were traded as Salmon Bait so What, what happened when you when you got married and did that cause problems? Well no, no I, I, I'd got a cycle and er the money was very useful to us cos er my husband, he worked on the, on the top of at Parcel he couldn't go down, they weren't allowed underneath er because he wore glasses, anyone wearing glasses they weren't allowed underground you see and they had to work on what they call on the surface, and of course the wages weren't, weren't much and er I was glad to go out to work and er and I, I eventually I had a cycle and I used to cycle to Squires and back you know, and erm it was, it was very very useful indeed the money I, I, I earned there. What, what was the attitude of, of Squires themselves when you got married? Oh well they treated me alright afterwards because Mr er said, well you see they put me on big presses during the last war and er I've always loved machinery, always loved machinery and then the foreman said er before the foreman came to him Mr said er, you've got to learn to set your own tools , he said, I can't keep coming out of the tool room and er to change your tools, so of course erm I began setting my own tools, but when I got them in they would come around and check because otherwise hundreds of pounds have gone, could have gone if I hadn't just got the top to go in right in the base you know, and er they were great big presses very big. Was, was there some pressure on you to stop working when you when you got engaged ? Oh no not after Mr had said you see. But, but before tell, tell me a bit about that I haven't got that on the on the tape. Oh er of course they erm, they didn't believe in married women working and er they thought a married woman should be at home you see, well I hadn't got any family then you see, until er after oh we'd been married a number of years when we had, when I had my first baby and er and then I had the other one pretty quickly and er then I was glad to go out to work again when they were school age, they weren't left unattended at all er one, the elder one looked after the one, we didn't live, we lived in then but erm there wasn't any pressure for me to stay at home, it was with my husband's consent, because he knew it was helping out because rent man's wages weren't very good then, and erm he er he finished, he finished at the pits you see and he got a job rent collecting, and he er he used to do miles he'd cycle part of the way and then er he'd perhaps leave his cycle somewhere and call back for it, but he used to do all the and all round there,there's a place called and then er a lot of places er he used to do the old, is this, is this on, erm he used to do round , round the top there there were some slums there. Yes I've seen photographs of them. and they used to collect the rents from there er some of them and er up er he came home one day and he said erm, I'm not going up there collecting again, as he er collected the bugs used to drop on his collecting pad I said, finish the job don't go again, but anyway they persuaded the people to take the rents into the office you see instead of having to have a rent collector, but er it was horrible he, he worked for them twenty five years and then when he was sixty four he had his, a stroke, but he went back again after eight months and he completed his job for when, you know he stayed in the office, he was er him and erm started the rebate, well it was footwork the rebate system was worked out at the Town Hall, but they, the rent men had to carry it out you see and er he er work the system out and of course erm, when he was sixty five he finished, course he was lucky really, but then er he could get about fairly well, but after the years drew on you know his, his health deteriorated and er but he lived er he was sixty four and he was eighty five when he died but erm When, when you were working at, at Squires erm And they were glad of them during the war. So when, when you were working at Squires the fact that you were the first woman? I was the first woman to start. The first married woman to start? The first married woman in the factory yes. Right and then others followed you on after that did they? Oh yes they They became accepted? it sort of er er gave them lee a, ladies leeway who wanted to work after they were married, some married and then could they come back well they couldn't keep me on and not let them work you see, so oh yes it was mostly married women, there were a lot of married women there when I left, but erm it sort of set a precedent I suppose for, for them but it did, it did them some good really . You, you say you noticed more and more machinery being brought in over the years? Oh it had oh yes definitely, they used to have a lot of machinery from Germany, cos they were specialists in, in power presses, oh I used to, the one big press I used to work on I used bells, erm all this was great nearly as high as the ceiling here and it was an press, and er just one just press a lever or a handle there used to be er handles on the side as well sometimes they put levers sometimes a handle and the bell would come out all formed and everything and that was heavy steel, and that was a heavy job, but erm they were very very heavy presses they, the pressure was very I don't know tons or something like that, but erm it was all er it was all to cut labour out and er and the self-feed as well where one would be feeding it or you'd pull it yourself, it was automatic all automatic I couldn't think of that word before. So they, they were cutting down on, on the workforce? Oh it was cutting, definitely cutting it down yes, and I er remember in the first place before erm all this automation was brought in, they used to do the casting er a man and his son used to do all the casting and believe me it was hard work, er the real old way you know er with the fires and that and everything like that and heating the things up in a bellows. That, that was done at Squires was it in ? In the casting yes in the casting yes. And, and what, what bits would they cast? What, what, what pieces would those be ? Er it would be some of the bodies I think oh er wait a minute I'm trying to think what the casting were be used for there were other things besides locks you see I forget what they the, I know they used to do the castings and the brass castings it would be for the locks, for the locks yeah I should imagine for some of the big lever locks . That's it the lever locks yes. The bolts and things like that. That's right yes and erm it was all er, now it is more, more mechanized, but still, they're still, I don't know whether they still do it cos I haven't been around Squires I don't know whether they'd do casting now, I haven't been down around for years and years, when I erm when I left and then I went into the leather trade and er started to learn leather cutting When, when you left was there any sort of erm did you get a send-off or any sort of recognition of all the work you've done or anything? Erm I don't think I did no, oh no they didn't they wouldn't think of doing that then, but they do now and erm then I, I've been around at Wiggens the old hall table where people you know, worked in the warehouse there and I've done all sorts Do, do you think conditions improved while you were at Squires? They'd, they had to because there were, they got, when, after the union was formed you know, they were having the rights er but and I think really the hours they put in and the type of work they deserved it, but erm there was a time you know when the bosses were bossy sort of thing, and er and you adhered to that, because you didn't know anything different until erm the unions started up, but erm I know there were one or two processions you know and peer rights and all this that and the other, but erm on the whole it's er it's been an eventful life in, in some ways, very eventful and it's been interesting. What, what things that, did you notice any particular things improving? Did, did, did your hours of work get shorter or anything like that? Oh oh yes yes the union did erm get that er sorted out you know, and er and then when the buses began to run it made it easier for those worked in Willenhall and er and it just be about threepence of fourpence in our money go there then, but erm and then the hours were altered you see, eight o'clock and finish at six o'clock and er and then it used to be seven to seven you see. Mm. Did you have to work Saturdays as well? Oh yeah yeah yeah Saturdays All day Saturday? No half day Saturdays, half day Saturdays, yes and then er I, I used to stay waiting for mother to come and my sister er to do the shopping in Willenhall cos they wouldn't shop anywhere else, and then erm my brother used to come with his cycle and er I used to carry a lot of the shopping back and my brother used to push a lot on his, on his cycle and mother and my sister used to stay down and have another walk around, but we'd got to walk it back I'd come back on the wagonette so or just after the buses started but er I'll never forget the first time the bus ran it was pouring with rain and my sister was standing in front of me and she'd got a new mac on and of course we were getting very wet and there was a scramble to get on the bus and the lady in front of her had got a bag of flour and of course the bag burst and went all down her They, they made a big difference did they the buses you would use? Oh yes, yes it did yes er I don't know whether it made us get more idle or what but erm the hours we used to work and erm I, I never had a sitting-down job I was standing all the while, and I only went if we could sort the keys out you know, we were lucky if we could sort them out to put the keys ready for packing you see, everybody wanted that job. What, what happened if you were ill at all or anything in the early days, did, did were you allowed time off for illness ? Oh well you had to notif take doctor's note in you see, oh yes er doctor's note and erm we were allowed, but erm fortunately I didn't have to have much time off, I've been really fortunate that way, but erm I don't think I would do anything that's different to what I have done because it's hard to prepare me for how I am now that's how I look at things, and er the trouble I had with my husband it's helped me to prepare myself for doing the garden, I'd done the front garden when the gardeners came this morning. The drovers used to bring the cattle through, they would walk from Wolverhampton through Windsfield straight into New Invention and every Wednesday night, first it was the cows that would come and then the sheep and they'd got to walk to the abattoir at Bloxwich, and erm sometimes the cows were so heavy with milk that er a lot of people in New Invention had free milk and then if the, if the sheep would be here there and everywhere you know and then with mother living where there was an entry dividing four houses er and a well straight at the top, and a. a big old-fashioned er tap for the cold water, there weren't any taps laid in kitchen in er what are the outhouses it was a communal tap erm sometimes the sheep would get out of hand and they'd run up the entry hall and all round mother's yard and then the cows would go around, but er it, it to me I felt sorry about it, because especially in the summer er erm the poor things were so hot and to walk all those miles, now they're carried aren't they and they used to every Wednesday every Wednesday of the year the drivers would er the men must have been absolutely tired out, well although they'd be used to it wouldn't they, but it was miles to walk from Wolverhampton the cattle market to Blox straight to Bloxwich and er that was another event that erm it, we, it, we used to have. Did they ever have any animals, live animals at erm at Willenhall market? I don't, I've never known of any, no I haven't know of any at Willenhall, but erm as I say it's a long way you know through Windsfield and along that way to get to Bloxwich isn't it, and of course it used to, as I say it was an event, and the kids used to, we used to and then the lamplighter used to come round, pushing his pole, no electric lamps then, he used to come round. Are you recording this? He would come round on his cycle just lean up against the er lamppost and push a long pole u underneath the, the lights the lamp itself the glass, and of course the lamp would come on off this pole Did you enjoyed that as children did ? Yeah oh yeah. We used to, we, that's all the as the village life was, it was it was all very now I know it's very interesting, my daughter wants me to write a book about it, she says, I said I'll oh I don't know mm, write a memoirs mum she said er, you know and I said you know a lot about New Invention, which I do but it's Willenhall you're interested in, but it all sort or entails the lot and erm there might be things I've can I wish I'd have told you if I can think about them after it's finished, but it's erm. I'm going to pour you a cup of tea now. Ladies and gentlemen, we just before we get on with the second part of the meeting when erm, meeting erm I think I ought to tell you that erm one of our committee members died a very short while back. I don't know how many of you knew him. And that was Arthur Platon who died, died very suddenly. And the erm committee was represented at the funeral. And he'd been on our committee for I think it was about about three years was that right? And erm he'd er contributed quite a lot and so we were very s , it's a very sad loss. And erm, anyway, I'm, I'm sorry to have to tell you that but erm now we'll get on with the second half of the meeting. So Brenda. Thank you. Well some of you have brought some erm interesting items along. Haven't had time to look at them all. erm I'm not going to keep you very long because I've nearly finished talking so erm when I've finished perhaps you would like to bring some of your things up and put them on the table and we can all have a look at them. And let's make do and mend. Knitters unpicked old jumpers, washed or seamed the unravelled wool and reknitted it. The tops of knitted socks with warm toes and heels were unpicked and reknitted with stripes of contrasting wool. The wool saved was used to knit new toes and heels. The seams of badly fitting or misshapen woollens were unpicked and the garment washed and reblocked. Sleeves wearing thin at the elbows were shortened. Any spare balls of wool were pooled to make children's clothes or squares for patchwork blankets. Best way patterns produced some interesting variations on the knitted square . erm I found recently found a Bestway pattern book and this is one of the pa the war time patterns they produced which is sort of shell shaped squares for patchwork and it really looks very effective. I've I've got a knitting machine and I worked out how to do it on my knitting machine and made a cot blanket for my newest grandchild and it does really look very effective. So if anybody does patchwork knitting or makes blankets or anything for charity and they'd like to give me a ring any time, I could give you the pattern. Woollens that were too worn or felted to be unpicked were cut up to make hats, body warmers and bed socks to wear in the shelter. Patterns also appeared for snoods snoods, turbans, and berets. Anyone who could hold a pair of knitting needles was expected to knit socks, balaclava helmets and scarves for the fighting men . And here we have some of the erm patterns that appeared, patterns for women in the services, patterns for men and women, there's the balaclava helmet. And this is a child's and bonnet to make out of an old felted woolly. I think it looks rather revolting. Sort of thing my mum used to make me and I hated. At the age of nine we, the whole class, knitted gloves for themselves. And I can still remember the pattern. I know how to do the same pattern. I remember a little boy, I've got on a picture with me he was a very very poor child and he made the best gloves in the class and it was a real sort of accolade for him. Well we, we, I remember about your age and having to knit sea boot stockings with very very thick, white wool. And knitting needles that to my little fingers were like rolling pins you know and they were long and they got under my arms and I always used to have a tummy ache on knitting day cos I didn't want to go to school. So that that was make do and mend knitting. The winter of nineteen forty was extremely bad, in fact most people say that it was the worst winter of the war. People sleeping in shelters and cellars found them damp, dark and cold. Blitz tips in a December issue of Woman's Own suggested lighting a candle inside an inverted flower pot and standing an enamel jug mug of water on the top. This would take the chill off the shelter and provide hot water for a cup of tea in the morning. Other suggestions included using hot bricks as feet warmers and sewing newspaper inside your corsets. Between September nineteen forty one and June nineteen forty two, nearly two and a half million homes had been damaged or destroyed. Sixty percent of the population of London alone were made homeless and during the war there were sixty million changes of address. At the height of the B one and B two attacks in nineteen forty four, more than two hundred thousand homes per day were made unfit for habitation . erm this little map here shows a very small area of West Ham where I lived. And all these little spots denote some kind of bomb or landmine. And that is only within about two miles you know an area of about two miles square. So if you multiply that by the area of London plus all the other big cities that were damaged and the coastline. They still find them quite frequently don't they? Mm. building si building developers and they sort of stop because they've found another unexploded bomb. Yes. I went to my old school in West Ham recently to talk to the children there and er the master to me that they've got a bomb trail. And that's part of the geography Oh. their course. They walk round from the school and they've got a map of the places where the bombs dropped so Wh which school was that? This was Home Road School now Cumberland School. But it's been demolished this year. That's in Plaistow. And er erm they saw me on the you know television programme and they asked me to go go to the school and Oh yes. talk to them about er pre-war period there and er I very much enjoyed it. I got a lot of letters from the children there and which was very gratifying. The only difference they were very well written but they were signed you know Mohammed and which were names I used to go there. I started nineteen eighteen Yes it's the s same school in West Ham that I went to too I don't know whether other other places have have erm kept that as a part of the I don't know if it's in the national curriculum. Yes. . Any, well you'll be interested in there I've got my own personal bombs on there. The one that damaged the house in which we lived. between erm oh by the end of the war one in every three dwellings had been demolished. Millions of people throughout the country lived in buildings which were either due for demolition because they were unsafe, or had received only emergency repairs. Heating then was difficult owing to fuel rationing and erratic supplies of gas, electricity and water. Washing and cleaning also caused major problems as soap was rationed, scouring powder in short supply, and dusters, dishcloths and tablecloths were no longer being manufactured. Crushed eggshells were mixed with scouring agents to make them go further and pot scour scourers were made from old silk stockings crocheted into squares. A mixture of stale tea leaves and vinegar was used for washing floors and paintwork. Scraps of soap were saved, grated, moistened with a little oil and water and pressed into a block . And I had a catalogue the other day from a, an environmental erm agency it wasn't Greenpeace it was something like that that were ac actually now offering these soap savers that we used to have in the war to press your bits of soap into Magazines were full of tips for saving fuel. Lightbulbs would give out more light if they were washed every week in soapy water. Water tanks and pipes should be lagged with whatever material was available. Coal dust should be collected up into strong brown bags, dampened down and used as coal. Tin cans filled with a mixture of old tea leaves and coal dust gave a lovely glow and plenty of heat. Further economies could be made by using as few rooms as possible. Single people or couples living alone were encouraged to join a cookery pool, saving fuel by pooling rations and take it in turns to cook meals for other people in the group. Only five inches of water was allowed for baths. In nineteen forty two The Lady proudly announced that the president of the Board of Trade had cut his large bath towels in half and he hoped his sacrifice would be repeated all over the country . Wasn't much fun either. What about the British restaurant Brenda? Yes that was, that was right erm there was a limit to how much you could spend as well wasn't there? Five shillings wasn't it that you could, no meals allowed if you ate out, you weren't allowed to spend more than five shillings. And the British restaurant was one, one and six wasn't it? You could have a complete meal for one and sixpence. And that wasn't on rations was it? No, no. You had to have what they gave you and it was pretty revolting from what I remember. Do you remember Tommy Hanley's though, er comment. He goes into a restaurant and he says oh the waiter erm let me see the menu and he looks at the menu and said right, he said. The waiter said no all off oh send me the usual toast. Which is what often happened. All you could get would be toast Well I, I remember once going into er a British restaurant because it was my birthday and there was trifle on the menu and trifle was some sort of weird jelly thing that was thi instead of sponge it was stale bread and I think it was sort of stewed apple and mock cream but the fact that it it was my birthday and it was trifle you know I just sort of sat there like a queen but I think I'm sure that it tasted quite revolting. It looked horrible. And there used to be sort of a mush made from haricot beans too that people said were baked beans and they weren't it was just sort of white mushy erm white haricot beans with a sort of red colouring poured over the top. But I think you could you could have whatever you could eat for one and sixpence in the, in the British restaurant. Excuse me I've got not exactly hay-fever but I think I'm going to be sneezing for a few minutes. Going back to the, the blitz when we were bombed out we erm had to during the day we lived in my aunt's house mother and father and me. So we had the dining room and a lounge. And at night our bedroom was the grandstand of Walthamstow dogs st stadium. Underneath the grandstand. Oh. So I've often wondered how safe that was! I I don't think it was full. But it felt good. I mean there was a lot of concrete in it. Oh we went I remember So we all walked down the corner there we all had our beds round there everything was laid out. Buildings. People used the underground and of course there were the, there were the erm Morrison shelters weren't there that you you had indoors. Well if anybody wants to see one I've still got my my Morrison shelter. Well it's got all the basic structure and half the top so if anyone's interested in seeing shelter I've got Where've you got that? In my garage . It's it's a marvellous work bench cos it's very Oh is that what you use it for? We have used it in anger oh yes. It was used in anger because we were living near Sevenoaks when the V one was over the doodlebugs and er they positioned er one of these barrage balloons just near our house you see. And er one or two got caught up occasionally now and then so we did erm have to go underneath because I was earning too much to get a free one it cost me seven pounds ten and I've got the receipt for it. It is really my own it wasn't given by the government I paid for it. So I justify that one. I think Britain directed more of her resources towards the war effort than any other nation including Germany. Recycling of waste was essential and it was the housewives' job another job for her to salvage from her home such things as paper, bones, tin cans, old gramophone records, photographs and negatives, jam jars, rubber and rags. Each category had to be put in a different container and taken to a collection centre . And here we've got the pig club and the pig bin with its pig food. Have you heard of the Tottenham pudding? Tottenham pudding. There was a campaign after the war to bring back Tottenham puddings they had somebody in Harlow who was Well what was, what, what was Tottenham pudding then. Tottenham pudding was a er a mixture, to, for feeding animals Oh. which was collected and pigs particularly wasn't it? Pigs, yes. And er the it was a sort of for, I remember erm only a few years ago in Harlow we had a discussion group there was somebody there and I I think I've still got the piece about that. They erm wanted to bring it back cos they thought that this was excellent all this erm purpose erm nowadays Yes, well l think, I think so too That's how Biss Brothers started out wasn't it? They used to collect the Tottenham pudding. Well they my parents used to have it you see cos they kept pigs That's it. and it was Bisses who used to bring round Tottenham pudding. Used to get deliveries of it for the pigs that's how they started up. They used to bring it round in metal things bring back Tottenham puddings and my dad had you know the stuff he used to find in it cutlery all the tea towels and plates and everything else. It was, it was used used to be stuff from these restaurants and they weren't particular what they threw in it was all these knives and things But we used to have these, these bins at the end of each road and we used to have to put any scrap or unwanted food in. And then we had this pig woman who, who erm who wore men's clothes and a big cap and she had a horse and cart. And she used to come round at night and collect this stuff. And it used to smell revolting. I think probably that was probably London but in the north I lived on the north east coast in a very small town and some of I mean my memories are quite different in a way. I mean I remember the waste paper which was organized by the girl guides and the boy scouts in the town. erm very much that was the whole Sunday Yeah. Yeah well as I say I I lived in the east end of London and that that's how it was done there but I dare say that other places organized it It probably wasn't economic in the very small town you know probably you know I don't, I don't remember people keeping pigs but if it was collected it probably was collected by the bin at the back door. Yeah. Well it was understood that Bisses got most of theirs from restaurants, and all restaurants I think had to sort of hand over all their waste for the war or something. That's what my, I say my father bred er pigs and supplied the Ministry of Food and I can remember that he had a contract to collect all the erm waste from schools in the area. But erm they say that he had used to go and collect it and that was what was fed to the pigs. So as regards waste material fifteen tons of scrap metal would make one medium sized tank or two bombers. From nineteen forty a compulsory campaign deprived public parks, gardens and squares of their ornamental railings and private homes of their front gates and fences. All aluminium saucepans including those from Buckingham Palace here collected in July nineteen forty but unfortunately it was not of the right grade and so housewives then suffered for the rest of the war and having to cook with inferior pans. After Japan's entry into the war all imports of rubber from the far east were suspended. Woman's Own produced a rubber rhyme which sounds rather vulgar to encourage its readers to part with their old rubber corsets . I don't know if any of you are old enough to remember the sort of rubber corsets that were worn in those days. erm those of you who had mothers who were young in the twenties will probably recall seeing them because they were rather tubular almost like a rubber tube, with small holes punched in for circulation. And they were the sort of corsets that gave you the the straight boyish look that was necessary for the clothes of the twenties and the early thirties which were cut on the cross. And so a lot of women continued to wear these erm rubber garments. In fact on erm on one of the erm sheets that I've brought up there's a notice of how to repair them with bits of cycle inner tube. .So the erm Woman's Own rubber rhyme erm begins Aahs for the runs and I modestly blush, aahs for the runs in your girdle. May I suggest if the thing is worn out it will help us to jump the last hurdle. Paper was collected in every form. It was desperately needed. In the first months of the war Herbert Morrison had requisitioned thousands of papier mache coffins for emergency use in bombing raids on London alone. One hundred tons of paper was needed in the planning and construction of a battle ship. Magazines and newspapers reduced the size and number of their pages, cinema, theatre, bus, tram and train tickets became small and flimsy. Used envelopes were recycled using stick on economy labels. Bank statements, cheque book stubs and private receipts could be returned to banks for shredding. And interesting but only interesting novels could be taken to the post office for distribution to the armed forces. Non fiction books and sheet music went for salvage. Very little wrapping paper or other packaging was allowed and paper bags and clean newspapers were carefully saved for shopping trips. Newspapers were also cut into squares and used for toilet paper. Butter and margarine papers were kept for greasing and lining cake tins etcetera and I still do it. And I still fold up my paper bags. Rags were more difficult to collect as housewives were putting scrap material to so many other uses. We're wearing them, one housewife remarked . This comment was not entirely facetious and this brings us back to the remarks I made earlier about erm the use of Tampax and the government trying to persuade women to erm use internal sanitary protection. Because of the shortage of raw materials the government was running a propaganda campaign to persuade women to wear tampons during menstruation. Tampax advertised a trial offer of two tampons in a box with an explanatory leaflet . Now the reason that erm they, they were trying to promote the use of tampons was that one couldn't get cotton to make cotton wool and so it wasn't possible any, any erm er erm sanitary garments that were made of cotton were commandeered and used for people in essential war work or the armed forces. And so there was this campaign to persuade women to change. Women who preferred who preferred traditional methods of sanitary protection either had to stand in long queues in order to buy just one or two towels you couldn't even buy a packet, you could just buy one or two or make do with other methods. One of the most common particularly in low socio-economic groups was squares of cle an rag which could be soaked, boiled and re-used. But when the make do and mend clubs were told that even worn out soft collars and shirt cuffs would make maps for tank commanders, they responded well and over a thousand tons of rag was collected between nineteen forty two and nineteen forty three. Bones were used for making explosives, glue and paint for aeroplane mark markings, and proved the most difficult of all to collect. The Ministry of Supply asked for any kind of bone except the backbone of a kipper. Housewives were told to hand them in after they had been used in the stock pot and fed to the dog, after, after which the bones were to be washed and dried in the oven after the gas and electricity had been turned off. Then they were to be put in a tin or other suitable container. In November nineteen thirty nine, the national savings campaign was set up. It was estimated that in August nineteen forty the war was costing between six and seven million pounds a day and that a great proportion of it must come from the savings of the people. Savings groups were formed all over the country and children ran their own campaigns in schools. There were also special savings weeks. By nineteen forty three individuals were putting aside almost one quarter of their disposable incomes. But it was always tempting to indulge in whatever small luxuries were available and people were constantly warned to be aware of the squanderbug . There he is up there, wanted for sabotage. He was a horrid little rat like creature and he had a big swastika on his stomach. And he was always persuading people to spend more money. You see there there he is telling this lady don't listen to her she runs a savings group, the squander bug works for Hitler. The squanderbug alias Hitler's pal, known to be at large in certain parts of the kingdom . So you had to be careful of him. So world war two ended with the surrender of Japan on the twelfth of December nineteen forty five. On the home front it was time to make new plans fo r the future. But for some people the austerity period which followed brought it even more years of deprivation and hardship than those of the war. They were bitterly cold winters, resulting in fuel restrictions and cuts in gas and electricity supplies. Some new foods were introduced including snook, a fish product from South South Africa, and whale meat. But in nineteen forty nine there was less meat available than in nineteen forty four. Bread was rationed in nineteen forty six and food and clothes rationing continued like make do and mend until well into the nineteen fifties . I conclude went through all the, all the motions of bread rationing but the last time er they, they cancelled it. Did they? So bread wasn't rationed although everybody er was allocated a bread ration There was an allocation, yes. According where you although it didn't actually come into practice. You didn't have coupons? No, no. Unless anybody else can confirm that. It got right near it, but erm Finally there's just the there's the famous dig for victory poster and er is your journey really necessary. And erm watch it all the things that one had to do to one's car if one was able to use a car in the blackout. Well thank you very much.. I was in the army and you were thinking of a different country. Cos I was in the army we had good food and were away from all the bombing. Uhuh. And we went to Frinton of all places and you could go to the chippie and get fish and chips and everything. It was a different war from, from what you're talking about. Yes. Several people were called up er they were, they were given a white feather were given a white feather for exactly the reason that you mentioned so they were going to have an easy time. . If you were in London erm you were called up give gave you gave you a white feather cos you were going in the army.. I missed most of the first war with him actually. We didn't know it but we were together Lancaster. I was up at Lancaster when Liverpool got it. I was at Liverpool in nineteen er forty one May. Er at Wood er Lord Wood, Wood Lord Wood you know the pie p person Walton? Yes Lord Walton, his home er when Liverpool got bombed and and the ship went up. And all we got was we slept through that. And then we came down to Frinton and Felixstowe when London so. You know when people talk about the war we feel dreadful! Well there was one sad part wasn't it that when I was on my in training during the and the rockets and so in classrooms and had a lecturer talking to us and erm this lad come in with a message from the teleprint and erm give it to the instructor, and he'd call a name and the chap would go out. Pretty horrible. Yes. Somebody from London that'd lost their family Yes but it was, it was just like that when one went to school. And you went to school in the morning but never knew whether your house was going to be there when you got home for dinner or whether you'd still have a mum and dad and I got er two letters actually. I got a letter to say dad was in hospital and we had a buzz bomb and it wasn't too bad and er don't worry. And I god so I dashed round, got a long weekend it turned out to be marvellous. Came home and she said well what have you come home for? Says well dad's in hospital. Yes he had tummy trouble. And the first letter told me that he'd got stomach upset. The second letter told me so I thought they'd been bombed out. Er one of my worst experiences actually was going to school and found that when we walk when I went into the classroom there was only me and two other children. And the rest of the children had been killed in the night. They they all lived in in a small area that had been completely bombed. They were just three of us. No no no that was in erm near the docks erm in West Ham, Stratford way, yes. Yes. The Hawsfield Road is er is er three hundred and fifty people. Yes. Children, erm. You might like to look at the erm the West Ham bombing map. Well I'm afraid ladies and gentlemen we're going to have to stop now, rather reluctantly. Thank you very much really interesting. Thank you. and it's very interesting reminiscences from people in the audience. Thank you very much indeed. And I'll see you again . the afternoon's business as printed in the programme and I call Neil to give his national officer's report. Neil . Colleagues, settle down please. President, congress Neil , national office speaking to the general secretary's report pages one two five, one four three. Congress it has been my sad misfortune to encounter some of the most hostile employers over the past year that would make the grey hairs that I've got fall out. But, having said that, we have tried in the Ministry of Defence where market testing has been the order of the day to say that it's confusing, that would be being polite, Mr Chairman. There is utter and total confusion and anything that stands still they used to say they would paint it in industry they now say market test it and they do admit to us that the end object does not necessarily mean complete contractorization or privatization, but at this particular moment in time we have found that the opposite has been the situation. And within the Home Office and the prison service, which was scheduled to become an agency on the first of April this year, an appropriate date perhaps, Mr Chairman, but we are still in the quagmire of getting arrangements which are suitable and protecting our people, and more so the craftsmen within that particular industry. We do have the Wolfe report but unfortunately not for the want of effort, the Wolfe report is turning out like the Black report and others and I don't say that because there was a gentleman who done a report Black and it is gathering dust, the Wolfe report is on the same shelf, I believe. But we will endeavour to represent our members and to push for their ordinary rights, their just rights more than just rights they, are earned rights and should be afforded to them. Within Royal Ordnance which I have resumed the responsibility for I don't know, Mr Chairman, I convened a meeting of the convenors to introduce myself and to familiarize myself with the movement and the industry only for the company to announce thirteen hundred redundancies, as we were meeting. That has been further added to and we do have problems at Bentley Chorley Blackburn although Blackburn at this particular moment in time may be easing the particular pressure but we are all suffering from the restraints within the government industry. We will endeavour to continue to represent the members and to project their needs and desires towards the company. But the company are saying to us, like the M O D, we've had the ending of the Cold War things are now changing there is not a demand. I don't know if the situation in Germany is as stable as people are making out I do not know if the other continents, or the other countries within the European continents, are of a stable nature when we look at what is happening in certain parts of the previous Russia or the states of the U S S R there is complete and utter confusion and atrocities being perpetrated on people within those. Within the car industry and the associates of it we also have the problems of the recession affecting those particular industries. We do have, and I would like people who do be utilized by Ford I would love to go to Ford and say don't utilize this particular company. I'm prepared to do that but unfortunately colleagues I've forgotten. We cannae do it, the legislation does not allow us to do it. The Tory legislation does not allow us to do it. Just like it does not allow us to sing an old song that was sung often , Show Me The Road And The Miles To Dundee perhaps that's the song we should be singing just now in these particular circumstances and be it the day, maybe even in Portsmouth this particular day. But Portsmouth also has its problems within the F M R O and it was with interest walking round the town last night, I saw that Charles the Second fortified this town to a greater deg extent using . I wonder and I have grave doubts and reservations, that Charles the Third will have a Portsmouth and a naval base to fortify. I do not know, I have great reservations on that as long as the policies that have been perpetrated by this government remain. I had with the permission of the deputy general secretary leave of conference yesterday I was in London to be told of a further nine hundred redundancies from a company that a short time ago was telling us, and if you look at my report you'll have to delete the first paragraph where they had secured orders and the security of our members' employment only to be told yesterday, nine hundred will go. They will be volunteered but they will be compulsory. We asked if there was any possibility due to the loyalty of these people if they could get extra severance pay. We also asked if we could get the same consultation period because they are breaking it up at the four sites and some sites will get thirty days' notice others will get the ninety days. And they gave us a sheet. They gave us a sheet. Team one they want to put out more in the first division and , I could not be party to that team one and it was an atrocity to use such terminology. We do meet again with the company tomorrow to try and further progress the matter and hopefully , but my big fear is, is that it is a two-stage closure that they will go for nine hundred this time then we'll find that useful, expensive equipment will be transferred to Sweden. I have great fears and reservations on that particular point. So we also have within the steel industry which like all other industries is going through the turmoil of redundancy and privatization. Privatization what is privatization? Well if you want facts and figures on it we can give you it but I'll tell you what it's meant to I'll tell you what it's meant training service I can tell you what it's meant to the royal dockyards which we've got to talk about yet from thirteen thousand, in some instances you're down to five. So that's what privatization is about and how do we stop the privatization how do we really represent the members by attacking the legislation that prevents us from acting in a spontaneous manner, which will assist our members in their hour of need. That is where we're going. The T & G's not our enemy. The Tory government and their legislation is our enemy and that's got to be attacked. So on the royal dockyard there has been quite a number ah, of rumours circulating this conference this morning, there has also been on the television and the radio, statements by one Gordon . I have no later than half an hour ago contacted my office and there has been no official communication re any decision being made on the royal dockyard and the capacity none whatsoever. So, if someone's playing games well whatever games they are please stop it there are people, human beings involved here who should not be used in the political fashion that's being used. So please come away from that particular avenue. And the local authorities also we have government policy again we have the situation that Wage Councils which have agreed increases for our members within the prison service, don't know whether they'll be allowed to implement them because they are over the one and a half percent. The National Health has told us one and a half percent if we want an extra day's holiday, if we want an extra day's holiday, then we would have to take three days, we could take two, that would leave us with half a percent. If we took three, we were left with none. So I'm sorry Mr Chairman if the report is doom and gloom but that is the situation that does prevail we will endeavour to work to the best of our ability, or the lack of it but please remember the constraints that we are under and if we have got any views, to stand, and if we do want to help the people in Dundee and we do want to stop the government pilfering the British Rail pension scheme Neil, can you wind up please. to the tune of four and a half billion, then look towards the legislation that's been inflicted upon us by the Conservative government. Thank you. Thanks very much, Neil. Page one two five one two six one two seven one two eight yes. Derek , Southern region, page one two eight. This government is just playing one yard against the other and the only ones to suffer are our members and their families. We see jobs being lost every week as our employers cut back to try and outbid each other not in the interests of defence of this country but purely because of political dogma. In Devonport, if Devonport was to close, which is possible as it will become uneconomic with further cuts in its workload the impact on the economy would be horrific. Both direct and indirect jobs would be lost some twenty eight thousand in all if the yard were to close. The south west would be an industrial desert dependent solely on tourism. Any political decision that could lead to the closure of either Devonport or Rossythe would also put the defence of this country at risk. We need a properly thought out defence policy we are a maritime nation we are in a maritime city we need a strong navy we need a strong defence. We must keep both the dockyards open together with the naval base in Portland, in Portsmouth. On T V this morning, as Neil has said, Gordon M P, was seeking a meeting with the Prime Minister. We must allay those fears for both Devonport and Rossythe and Neil, can we have an update and what the G M B position will be to that response? Thank you. One two nine one three O one three one one three two one three three, one three four, one three, yes Les , Midlands and East Coast region. President, congress Neil, page one three four you say in your report and I quote,Sadly, T U P E does not cover pensions, although at this time there is some grey area . Neil T U P E regs do apply as the joint G M B T T T & G document clearly outlines. With the case of Perry versus Intec and the eternal attorney general has confirmed to Gillian that T U P E must protect both past and present, future pension rights. Also Neil, local authorities engineering craft workers very small number of our members but there is no mention of this section in your report. This section is in the public services section. In June ninety two the C E C recommended that local authorities manual, building and civil engineering, and engineering craft workers report to one forum for ninety three. As all local authority reps know this did not happen. Did the C E C know it had not happened? At the engineering craft conference at Congress House, thirteen reps attended four of these were officers. I would like the assurance from Neil and the C E C that the local authority public services section will meet in one forum for ninety four as in the C E C report. Thank you. Thanks very much. One three five one three six one three six. President, colleagues,, South Western region. Neil I wish to draw your attention to the Ministry of the Defence guard force. I drew this item to the attention of congress last year since when my branch has lost thirty four members to new caps including one who was making good progress and had become a national delegate. I have copies of letters between yourself and John of new caps, dated the twenty fourth of February. Have you been able to establish whether or not Bridlington has been breached and if Bridlington has been what are you going to do about it to get that decision res reversed. Thank you. One three seven. President, congress Owen , Midland and East Coast region. Neil could you tell me what's happening to the apprentices in P S A as work staff been put out to grass I hope they aren't. One three eight one three nine Les , G M B Scotland. Congress Neil I raised the subject last year about nuclear waste and what was the position as far as Rossythe was concerned. Now, we're in a delicate position as we all have heard this morning from our colleague at the Devonport dockyard. Rossythe is no different we stand to lose eighteen thousand plus training facilities for the whole of Scotland but we've just been told of recent that a new nuclear waste dump is to be built at Rossythe could you tell us if this is a forerunner for the subject of closing Rossythe down with a loss of all these jobs? Thank you. One three nine one four O, one four one, one, yes President, congress, Peter , Midland and East Coast one four one, section seventeen, British Steel. Neil for two congresses I've come here and I spoke to your predecessor about team working and the team working concept and I told th your predecessor that the steel union was about to takeover our craftsmen and our general workers. They are now at it. I hope you and Tony now in within the N treble C get a grip of this cos we're not gonna let anybody else go. One four one one four two and one four three. Hywel , Liverpool, North Wales, Irish region. Neil can I ask you haven't have got on my eyes looking for it, but I can't see any reference at all in your report to local authority engineering craftsmen. I've looked at report can't find anything. I believe you're the officer that's responsible for it can I ask why there was nothing in the report. Can I ask is it because it was too small a group, or is it because no one can make up their mind where they belong? I can say the pitters in my branch will certainly be asking questions when I get back. Okay, one four three Neil, have you finished writing those down? You've not got many this year. Derek can we take on the dockyards, Derek, I did indicate the situation that half an hour before speaking to congress my office has not been told officially by M O D of any change of a decision being made. The position of the G M B is a retention of a true facility that is quite clear that was the decision of this conference some three years ago, moved by your own region and seconded by Scotland. I have worked towards that and will continue to work towards that policy, which is our union. For page one three four and T U P E, yes, well we have done quite an extensive document, there's been a lot done about T U P E in the public sector we've done it in the government sector and given guidelines, and T U P E, while it is like you rightly say, a step forward, it's not the total answer we need something better, but it does level out the playing field that the cowboys can find it difficult in and we as a union are advocating to our members where there is a transfer taking place, whether there's a change to your employment challenge it and we will support that challenge with the necessary legal interpretation if so. I know your local authority craftsmen and I have as you're aware, just taken over the responsibilities and that is the first meeting that I had, that was why also there's nothing in the report, because I thought I had a conference of people I had not spoken to the shop stewards I didn't have a f a feedback prior to the closing date of the report being concluded for print so I do and I have spoken with Mick since our conference and we will further discuss the matter, I don't envisage any great problem in what you've said. I there is a small difference of course, the C E C did say it, but there is dif different negotiating procedures as you're, you are aware but Mike and I are talking about that and I'm sure we can overcome it. I, David on your guard force and the thirty four members yes, you, you rightly mentioned the correspondence with your at this moment in time I have had no reply I have sent another letter which you have not received as yet to , indicating that if they do not return those members then we will proceed to Bridlington. Have no doubt in your mind about that because we did not take one of our representatives to negotiate with the guard force to enhance your and their membership that is not the ball game I'm not playing it and we won't do that and you can rest assured we will pursue it to Bridlington if need be. Owen and the apprentices Owen like everywhere else the apprentices and the cutback has been . The apprentices who are there under an apprentice contract unfortunately secure employment for the period that you're contracted to after that, you are in the situation of dog eat dog, dare, dare I say. What we are endeavouring to and the company has not as yet went out and dispersed of apprentices willy-nilly. Hopefully we can retain that particular situation. Les and the nuclear waste again Les, there has been no indication whatsoever in respect of being notified officially by the M O D, as to Rossythe being used as a nuclear dump none whatsoever. People have suggested that in respect of fifty seven, conference they don't know what fifty seven is, but I'm quite sure you do, Les. So we can only concentrate our efforts and what we have been concentrating our efforts on is not turning any place into a nuclear dump, then we have been concentrating on our union's policy which is the retention of all the facilities and job security for our members. So we have no knowledge on that and Peter and team working and Tony is in the, the body of the hall we had quite an extensive discussion over a period of time but perhaps cumulating last Friday, a week last Friday, on the N treble C and we are calling a special lay- delegates conference on the first of July in Sheffield, with one item on the agenda team working. We are, like yourselves, equally despondent with I S P C and the attitude that they are employing . But you will be receiving notification of the said meeting taking place and my colleague from Northern Irela Wales Northern Ireland, perhaps if you could have a chat with me in the corridor, I may be able to do something which can help you alleviate the sa situation between us. Thanks very much indeed, Neil. Colleagues, before I call the mover of motion four one six on South Africa I'd like to read out a message from the African Nafr National Congress. It's addressed to the general secretary, John . Dear friends, comradely greetings to your annual conference from the African National Congress. Over many years we have together worked towards the day when all the people of South Africa are able to vote for a government of their choice and be in control of their own destiny. On this path we have seen the rise of the congress of South African trade unions and the African National Congress, to positions where they claim their rightful places in the future democratic, non-racist, non-sexist South Africa. This new era will usher in a period of restructuring and reconciliation when South Africans' international relationships can be based on mutual advantage and not on conditions of slave labour, bred of racism. Although a tentative date for the first democratic elections has been put forward, we are not yet, not yet there and our campaign for free and fair elections for a democratic constitution needs your urgent support. Together we can lay the foundations for a new South African government of national unity led by the A N C. We wish your conference a successful outcome Mendy , Chief Representative, the A N C mission to U K and Ireland . Colleagues, I now call the mover of motion four one six, standing in the name of the London region, South Africa. President, conference, Ed , Westminster Touch branch, London region. Brothers and sisters it's only too easy er, when we go through our union lives to become obsessed with the problems that we face. Every day we have battles with employers to make sure that we have decent working conditions for our members in this country. However when we look outwards and see what is happening in South Africa to trade unionists there, the scale of our problems is put into a truer perspective. Joining a trade union in South Africa and being active within that union can lead to dismissal physical violence imprisonment and even death. The black activists' struggle for human rights within South Africa is one that this union must support we must look to support their unions in every way we can with both resources training and financial support. The changes that have been introduced into South Africa forced upon the white minority government by both international pressure but also by the magnificent work at the A N C in Cosatu must be supported as well but we cannot treat South Africa as anything but a pariah a, a, a national pariah until we see one person one vote, and a black majority government in South Africa. This union, colleagues, must support and strengthen links with South African trade unions. As we support them so in the future, I am certain, as they have in the past, they will support us. In this way we can move forward to true international solidarity with our comrades within South Africa. I urge you to support this motion. Is the motion seconded? Formally seconded. The C E C are recommending you to accept motion four one six all those in favour against that's carried. Colleagues, it's now my very great privilege on your behalf to extend an invitation to Abdul , the honorary secretary of the Anti-Apartheid Movement, to address congress. In nineteen fifty eight Abdul, along with a number of his colleagues, formed the Anti-Apartheid Movement we're very privileged today to have somebody of the stature of Abdul at our particular congress. A tireless worker not just in Britain where he performs the task of honorary secretary of the Anti-Apartheid Movement, but throughout the world throughout the world. He is indeed an international figure and is respected so and he's one of the few people to have actually addressed the Security Council on the question of apartheid and has indeed spoken at many United Nations conventions on the question of apartheid. I can think of no other person in the Anti-Apartheid Movement who knows more and is more up to date on the current situation in South Africa. Colleagues, it's my pleasure to welcome on your behalf, Abdul . Comrade chair, comrade secretary general of the conference and the G M B and if I my say so, comrade delegates, and I should explain in these changing times the use of the word comrade. I do not mean it in any ideological sense or historical sense or to be provocative but it's very, it's with very deep feelings that I speak to you today because you may not understand it but for me, after thirty three years in exile I was able to return to South Africa in nineteen ninety one and one of the first activities to which I was invited was the annual meeting of Cosatu And so when we say comrades in that sense, and thank you as comrades we mean it as comrades in arms. You see we cannot always help who our brothers and sisters are but we can make alliances of people on issues of liberation and freedom that goes beyond that narrow family relationship and develops into a very solid alliance that helps to change situations. So it's a very great honour and privilege for me to address you today because at the end it may be difficult for you to understand but when I return to South Africa, and forgive me for speaking personally I also realize the full meaning of the support of British trade unions and the labour movement and the churches because it was because of your political material and particularly in the case of the G M B, financial and material support that it gave us the means to do what some of us wanted to do about our country and our situation, and bring about change if we could peacefully. So I also want to thank you very deeply from the innermost parts of my heart, for having given an opportunity for some of us to work in Britain to have accepted us and worked with us to build the solidarity movement that brought the apartheid regime to its knees. So I think our victory in South Africa which isn't complete is also in that sense your victory and in this sense there is tremendous affection and love for all of you in the hearts of the oppressed people of Southern Africa and Africa. I don't just say it, because time is valuable and I should explain what's happening in the region but I think it's also very important to convey this to you after your years and decades of solidarity with the liberation struggle. Friends, as we speak today about South Africa, we speak about transition transition from February nineteen ninety when De Klerk said that he would change things and he did change things and they were dramatic changes and then we had apartheid with a liberal dispensation. The A N C and other organizations were unbanned there was free activity people can meet others across the colour line if they so wish but basically the apartheid structures are in place still. And let us remember that as De Klerk himself said they changed not because as he said, we wanted to but because we had to. And they had to change because apartheid was at a dead end the people of South Africa were continuing with their struggle the country was ungovernable and there stood the prospect of more sanctions which would bring the noose around the apartheid system. And most important of all and it is often forgotten is that in South Africa the regime and the western powers were facing a real hot revolution and that hot revolution could have destroyed the country for all its people. And so when we came to the negotiation process so to say, it was a stalemate. The regime wasn't defeated although it had come to a dead end and the liberation movement did not conquer the situation although they made government impossible. So out of that stalemate negotiations have begun and they've gone on for three years. So we have, in effect, a situation where the regime wants to change without changing and that often happens in power relationships. Mandela is free he's out of prison he can address the British parliament, the United States congress, the parliaments of the world he addresses the whole world through television when we held those concerts for him at Wembley and yet he still does not have the vote. Meanwhile as my visits to South Africa showed me in such a traumatic and depressing way the conditions of the majority have got worse there's economic recession lay-offs, high inflation rate and growing violence more people have been killed in South Africa in the last two years than in any previous two years that you look at. And this violence has been unleashed from state structures and it's not an accident that the happen to be mainly the A N C or as recently you saw, the general secretary of the communist party, Chris or Cosatu leaders or church leaders, or the other pattern of violence indiscriminate killing of people on the trains. I came on a train here today from London in South Africa if you are black and you got on a train it wouldn't be as comfortable and there would be crowds in it but you wouldn't know whether you reached the other end because at some station a group of people would get on and shoot you indiscriminately, and get off again leaving that scene of massacre. To destabilize like has done in Mozambique, trained by South Africa and that pattern is rife in South Africa today. The regime of course wants to keep the old order the A N C and freedom-loving people want a new order and a quick change but how do you mo move to that situation when you also have the right wing and the security forces and elsewhere not wanting change? How do you, friends, change a structure which is still the old structure with a civil service, a security and everything that goes with it and move to one of democracy and justice because if you move too rapidly and you do not make concessions and you ignore the terrible power of the right wing with all the military might at its disposal you can very easily create in South Africa a Lebanon or indeed, yes, a Yugoslavia. And so the A N C has to make sure that while it works for the aspirations of its people it must also protect the country and I'm afraid in this context it means it has through negotiations and other means also conceded made concessions in order to save the situation and the only organization that is now working for the national interest even losing its own supporters in the country is basically the A N C and it's quite a remarkable thing to see that leaders are prepared to l lose political support because they have to make sure that the country doesn't . We now have a general date for elections in nineteen ninety four and when that date is formally agreed, many sanctions will go and we're already preparing because Cosatu and the South African Council of Churches believe that there should be a code for investments so that investments go to help uplift people and indeed tomorrow I have to go to Holland for exactly such a conference called by the World Council of Churches and the South African churches. Then after the elections, the elections are to have a constituent assembly and that constituent assembly will work out our new constitution in the country and from that constituent assembly we hope also to form a national government of unity, of national unity and that'll continue maybe for five years in order to give stability to the country and this of course also means a concession because it's a concession to the existing power structures to have some kind of stability. And when we say, or the A N C and democratic organizations say, that you need a five percent vote to cross the hurdle to get in to the assembly and then you, you, you're a member of their parliament so to say and then what do we hear? We hear Ian Carter say that's unfair and I'll let you into a secret Baroness Chalker then responds interferes in these negotiations and says five percent is too high a figure. Why? Because and Ian Carter can only manage three percent. So democracy is a dangerous exercise when it means we empower the majority against minority groups that have rested on the support of the regime. Then after the elections or rather during the elections, we have to make sure that they are free and fair as you've just heard and we from Britain and the Anti-Apartheid Movement has to be vigilant to ensure that we have international monitors from the U N, from the European Community, from the Commonwealth and individuals from, from Britain and elsewhere. We also have to provide support for the A N C for thirty years a banned organization having to start from scratch in a country where the majority is supported but having no party officers or structures in place because if we suspend support to them or reduce it it will be like having no support of them all this time and just when the bird is about to fly you clip its wings. So there's no moment which is greater than this for supporting the liberation struggle. Meanwhile there's growing violence as I've said and we want to end the violence but we cannot wait to end the violence before we have the elections and you can imagine at what great disadvantage the democratic forces will work when they try to have elections in a violent atmosphere which is determined by the state structure. So we have to move from old structures to new but the first new government of South Africa will be a compromise in itself because it will be a united government but it will inherit not a post-apartheid state as many academics and politicians tell us it will inherit a nil-apartheid state and that is a very big difference we still have to move to the post-apartheid situation which could take decades. I was horrified in nineteen ninety one with my first visit to see the enormous problems in housing three and a half million people were forcibly moved in the eighties in South Africa, the biggest peacetime movement of people anywhere in the world and there are now over seven million people in, just in the shacks on the roads, not even the informal housing which counts for more. No sanitation, water health, there's no primary health care, virtually the only country in the world with no primary health care. Unemployment forty to fifty percent. Transport virtually nil for Africans, we have to spend two or three hours a day going to work and the same coming back tired, exhausted and risking their lives with . Every area you look at South Africa in a report I gave to the Norwegian government which they commissioned we pointed out every area is like a major disaster area as if you've been hit by an earthquake in every area of human activity and that situation needs something like a martial plan if we are, a martial aid plan, if we're to address it but in the world we live in there's no prospect of such assistance coming to Southern Africa. Then there are the social conditions children, a whole generation brought up in violence without education and you know you survived only in South Africa if you are black by breaking the law! If you respected the law you wouldn't survive. So a whole generation that has learned how to break the law how do we create them into law-abiding citizens? A generation that's gone to prison more often than it's gone to schools or cinemas a generation where family life is not known where the horrible migrative system destroyed any idea of family life how do we reconstruct? Yes, friends, we have many problems and the neighbouring countries Mozambique, Angola, attacked by South Africa in war, have even greater problems. The legacy of apartheid is not only within the borders of South Africa but in the region. But we are lucky we have great people and great people in terms of the ordinary people. The struggle of Cosatu and the trade union movement, the liberation struggle, when you look at it it gives you great hope in terms of human capacity but they will need other kinds of help in order to reconstruct and let me say this because it is important and I don't say it with any kind of arrogance we have one kind of miracle occurring in South Africa that people ignore and that is that out of the hell of racism we have produced a leadership which is the strongest leadership in the world against racism. And this is quite unique when you go to South Africa and you see what's happening that black leaders and blacks do not go for quick votes and quick solutions, we're not trying to keep,tu turn people against whites. When you see how easy those slogans political support in Europe and elsewhere you begin to understand what a great educational role the liberation movement and the churches of South Africa have carried out. And in this sense, when we liberate South Africa we will also create, we hope a state in the world which will become foremost in fighting racism all over the world and at the lower level our community based organizations our non-governmental organizations that have across colour built up structures to move communities forward if our friends in Eastern Europe and elsewhere could see how that is done at grass roots level in the hell of racism as I say they would have a lot to learn. So in the future we also have a lot to give to the rest of the world rather than just to look for help. I want to end by saying that we need now to f go over this hurdle of liberation make sure that the vast majority of black South Africans who are deeply angry and I saw this anger because I was in South Africa when Chris was assassinated and this anger was turning into rage and the country was on a knife edge it could have blown up, the country would have burned had it not been for the diplomatic achievement of, of enormous stature by Nelson Mandela when he addressed the whole nation and in a sense seized power informally from white and black and the country managed to survive that but if that anger turns into rage again then the country could burn and I don't say this to be dramatic but just to warn that in those moments when the media and so on don't explain the situation well don't forget our people because they have had to cope with this situation. We have to then work in the future not only to develop South Africa but to develop the region Angola, Mozambique, all the other countries. We do not want to have a future relationship of United States and Latin America reproduced in South Africa, which so many people talk about now when they talk about South Africa as the engine of growth if we have that kind of growth it'll be distorted and none of the poor in South Africa or the region will benefit from it. So we need then to move forward and next week Archbishop and Julius , the founders of the Anti-Apartheid Movement in nineteen fifty nine are having a conference in London which we've entitled Southern Africa Making Hope a Reality. And foreign ministers from Africa are coming the Secretary General of the O A U United Nations representatives and others because we want to build a new agenda and move the anti-apartheid campaign so that it prepares to handle the problems of Southern Africa. We in the world campaign which has so far tried to stop armaments to South Africa and its nuclear build up we want to work if possible to build a common security er, arrangement in the region where peace will be everywhere if we can make it everywhere because the region has got so many weapons and arms and military expenditure is very easy to increase when you have growing number of nation states where the people really need food and development. So we hope that in this last mile that we're now walking you will continue to support the Anti-Apartheid Movement and the A N C and Cosatu and others in South Africa that our eyes should be on the prize and that is to get democracy and the first democratic parliament in the country and after that to help in the horrendously difficult task of reconstruction and development and it is going to be a tough battle in South Africa as elsewhere and we will need to work not just for political democracy because you know so often democratic processes are misunderstood for empowerment of ordinary people and what democracy should really mean is that ordinary people have the opportunity to determine their own destiny and you know from your own advanced society and others how little power individuals have as a result of power of finance capital, of industry and of technology now. Technology is changing our world so much that small groups of people through computers and elsewhere are able to determine vast patterns of human behaviour and so it's gonna be a long struggle but through our struggle in Africa and your struggle here where we all want democracy but democracy's only a process what we have to contend with is also power because ultimately it's only when you're able to exercise that power that you can deliver for the majority of the people . Africa like elsewhere. If we just win freedom that freedom will become very empty if we're not able to use the power that it gives us to create justice and peace in the region. And so we still have a common struggle and to build up our international solidarity. In conclusion then to thank you again. At this stage, you know, we don't have in our situation because we're very poor any kind of gifts that can give a valid expression even as a token of the tremendous support you've all given us over many many years and decades in Britain that has been a source of inspiration. If I may take one more minute just to convey this when I was a child in South Africa and we demonstrated and the police would come you know, ready to fire ready to kill if necessary and you had to calculate how you can avoid that situation and then you try in your normal life after the demonstration to do something against the regime to organize people and so on, and then like a juggernaut the state comes and destroys all the work that you and others have done for years and you just see it as a child of what your parents and others had done. And then it is extremely difficult if you are not white not to become very angry with life it's very difficult and then you hear that in Trafalgar Square someone demonstrated Canon or or Barbara and then you say no! There are sensible white people in the world. We continue with the struggle and forget the mad whites here and that we have to help them and that's what our people have to do. But without your support and your demonstrations and support from whites in other countries with the rugby demonstrations, the cricket, with all aspects that you've done, you've also contributed to making it easier for us to be the kind of people we would like to be and I hope in that way we therefore do share as a family and then try and create one world. So as a small token of appreciation, I just have two books or two copies of the same book which I would like to hand to your president and to your general secretary as a token of appreciation and it's the authorized biography of Nelson Mandela of whom we are all very proud, considering what he has suffered through and what he has done and we hope that this little token will be a kind of memento for all your support but by doing this I'm not saying that your support is over because the struggle continues. Thank you very much. Thank you very much indeed, Abdul for that marvellous, excellent address. Colleagues on the fourteenth of June Trevor who indeed has addressed this er conference in the past will be eighty years of age. I would like to propose that we send our best wishes and congratulations to Trevor to mark that marvellous achievement. Would you agree to that? Thank you very much. Er, colleagues, we now move to the report and I call Alan . Alan , national officer. President, congress in the few minutes available to me this afternoon to speak to my written report I want to touch on three issues. First I want to say a little bit about the nineteen ninety three ninety four building materials pay round which is dealt with in some detail in the written report that you have. Second I want to say a few words about the efforts that have been made in the last twelve months to increase the G M B's role in the building and civil engineering industries and third I want to say something about the present serious situation in the building industry pay talks. Congress, well I've seen from my written report that the current material, building materials pay round has been an extremely tough one. Redundancies, short-time working, bonus cuts and the like have been very much the order of the day we've had the twenty percent job cuts at Blue Circle Cement which are mentioned specifically in the report and we've also seen significant additional job losses at British Gypsum in the brick industry and in many other sectors of the building materials industry. It's against that background, congress, that we've pressed forward usually in cooperation with the T G W U claims on behalf of our members in these industries. Congress will see from the report that settlements of the, in the range of one and a half to three percent have been generally speaking the order of the day. It's worth noting, colleagues, that it's only because of the determination of our members to ensure that their already meagre standard of living and basic rates are not further eroded that even this small achievement has been possible. I can also report to congress that at last there are some signs at long last of some kind of recovery in the building materials industry very early days yet but some companies are actually beginning to go back to full-time working and in one or two cases are actually starting to take on additional, er, employees. The recession that we've gone through in materials and elsewhere in the economy has taught us, or should have taught us I believe, a very clear lesson and that is that we must end the situation that's in the building materials industry where our members rely for a reasonable standard of living on bonus earnings the problem being of course that as soon as the recession starts to bite, then the bonus pay becomes very vulnerable to attack and reduction by the employers. It's for this reason that many of the shop stewards' conferences that we've convened in the last year have been pressing a policy of consolidating bonus pay into the basic rates and we've achieved some small success in this in building brick and in one or two other industries. I want to turn now, congress, if I might, to our efforts to raise the G M B's profile in the industry as a whole. We've taken a much more active role in the European Federation that we belong to, the Building and Woodworkers' Federation and as our conference will know, or some colleagues in congress will know we've actually had several shop stewards' exchanges within companies on the basis of the er p- potential wh council directives. I've also, it's worthwhile me recording my gratitude to the regions for the level of cooperation that's been extended in this programme. In addition to that, we've increased the profile that we, we have by concentrating on the health and safety issues and it's worthwhile me recording my appreciation of the efforts of Nigel in this direction because we're running very closely in, in, in tandem to ensure that the G M B is elite union in the campaign to make the building industry a safer industry for our members to work in. Last but by not means least, and we've heard them mentioned a couple times already this week and it will be dealt with more extensively later in the week we have of course persuaded to enter into detailed discussions with us er, which would hopefully lead to a transfer of engagements by the end of this year. It is one of the obvious benefits, congress, that what that will give us is a much higher profile in the construction and construction-related industries. Finally I want to say a little bit about the current deadlock in the building industry pay talks. Early this week the general secretary pointed out that the recession has thrown almost half a million building workers on the dole. This is not only a shocking waste of their talents and skills and energy, but it's a potent weapon that's been put in the hands of the building employers and the consequence is, of course, that they're seeking a twelve month pay and conditions freeze in the industry. The unions are presently consulting the membership as to how we should respond to this and that process is going on at the moment inside G M B the difficulty of course being the low level of organization. I am convinced congress, however, that there will be sporadic industrial action throughout the summer if the employers do not change their stance and it's my view that we have to restart the talks. With this in mind er, this morning I've written to George , the trade union secretary of the Civil Engineering Conciliation Board, the negotiating machine and suggested to him that he contacts the employers to seek a further meeting to see if we can restart the talks based on doing something about the longstanding commitment by both sides of the industry to have a positive and sensible pay structure for the future this may be one way forward, one way out of the deadlock. President, congress, with these few brief remarks I commend my report to congress. Thank you. Thanks very much indeed, Alan. Page one five eight one five nine one six O one six one one six two, one six three, one six four, one six fi yes. , Liverpool, North Wales, Irish region. President, congress this is gonna be a unique one, I'm gonna give Alan praise. Alan got a message for you all the stewards and secretaries within Pilkingtons and also the A E U, M S F and the T & G thanks very much for the initiative you've in getting us all together and the initiative you've took in getting us part of the European set-up company Pilkingtons, at this present time are very negative. Thank you very much. One six five, one six six, one six seven, yes. Bob , Midlands and East Coast region mutual admiration society, Alan. Erm, to congratulate you firstly on the level of settlements that have been achieved in the extracting and building conc building products division erm secondly, on, on one six seven the refused to make an offer and, er, if you could perhaps update us as to what, er method we're gonna approach employers now, erm, to, to secure settlements in that industry er, we think it was deplorable that no offer was made and we also think it was deplorable that E C C Building Products decided to say that even if an offer had been made, they wouldn't have been prepared to implement it. Thank you Alan. One six seven, one six eight one six nine, one seven O one seven one one seven two, Alan. President, I've, er, had lots of advice from my colleagues as to how to respond to the comments of the shop stewards er, I can only respond and say thank you very much indeed for the kind things they've said particularly, erm, specific point that's been raised on the industry from my colleagues that are from the Midlands and East Coast the situation currently is that, er, we have decided to ballot for industrial action in E C C and the T & G have decided to ballot for industrial action in, I think its . We've informed the employers of that decision and hopefully that will change the position. as colleagues who are involved will know is just about the only industry in the building materials sector that hasn't made some kind of pay offer in this current round it's very much bringing up the rear and we're determined to use what industrial strength we have to change the employer's stance otherwise we're very concerned that the national negotiation missionary , this will be his death knell since we'll have to resort to local pay bargaining, so the short answer is E C C er, will be balloted as far as the G M B is concerned union and, er, T & G are balloting in for industrial action to try to change the employers' position. Thank you congress. Thank you very much, Alan. Colleagues, perhaps I could explain to you, er, how we're gonna deal with the rest of the programme, certainly in the, the next hour or so er, I'm proposing that we take the special report, Health, Safety and the Environment Service Review be asking Nigel to move the report to be seconded by Fred from the central executive council we'll then invite speakers from all the regions and then we'll put the report to the vote. Th then we'll be following section on health of women workers which will take in motions two five eight composite thirty two motion two six one motion two six nine and composite six. Be asking Sue to respond to that debate and to put the C E C point of view. That will be followed by a number of motions on health and the environment composite five motion two six four motion two six five, motion two six six motion two six eight and composite seven, and I'll be asking Mark on behalf of the C E C to respond to that particular debate. It's now my very great pleasure, congress, to call Nigel to move the Health and Safety and Environment Service Review. Thank you Mr President, congress Nigel , Director of Health and Environment moving the special report, Health, Safety, Environment Service Review. In the time that I have to move the report I'd like to concentrate on some of the developments that have been taking place in health and safety this is not to, er, give the impression that environmental developments are not important but over this next year the government are going to be taking certain measures that we need to be aware of, er, in the health and safety area. I would start off by saying that in November last year the G M B held a major conference to relaunch our Health Safety and Environment Service. At that conference John the director general of the Health and Safety Executive gave his views on why certain regulations appear to be weaker than the actual European directives on which they were based. He said it was due to our unique Anglo-Saxon law whereby we set out in law what is reasonable and then we enforce it. Directives are based on Roman law whereby absolute duties are set out in the law but it is not vigorously enforced. We have recently found out that we have now got the best of all of these or the worst of all of these in Anglo-Saxon Roman law whereby we set out was, is reasonable in law and then they hear from Saf Health and Safety Executive tell us they are not going to enforce it. This hardly seems a credible basis for weakening directives which in themselves only establish minimum health and safety standards for workers across Europe. By the end of that conference, Mr was left in no doubt that the G M B rejected the H S's approach. What has happened since then? In January we were the first union to issue briefing notes on all six key health and safety regulations enacted at the beginning of the year we were the only trade union to put on a stand at the EuroSafe ninety three exhibition which was the main exhibition of the European year of health and safety this promoted the union's approach to health and safety. We have contributed to numerous guidance notes on new regulations across a wide range of industrial, service and commercial sections through Steven we have submitted a draft proposal on a directive covering upper limb disorders to the European Commission we'll be putting further proposals for the establishment of a European work environment fund to assist workplace activity, workplace research on health and safety and environmental issues. All of these initiatives as well as the day to day work that goes on with safety representatives at the workplace, supported by officials all of these initiatives are aimed at improving standards at the workplace and we are also contributing to the fourth action programme in Europe where they are setting out their action programme which will take them into the next century. So I'd like to reflect that against what the government has done since our unique November conference they have cut the Health and Safety Executive's budget for nineteen ninety three ninety four by five percent, that's a total of thirteen million pounds the Department of Employment have already admitted this will lead to less inspections and less prosecutions they have introduced a market tex market testing exercise into the H S E in other words they're saying what parts of the Health and Safety Executive can be privatized into, no doubt, their friends in industry they have made sure that Health that the Health and Safety Commission will work slower in the future by making the chair which is currently a full-time post a part-time post from September this year. As we are all aware, they have cut the grant available to safety representatives training, sorry, for safety representatives' training and will completely eliminate that grant by nineteen ninety five and to top it all they have just announced that a review of all health and safety legislation will be completed by April next year the objective of this review is to reduce the so-called burdens health and safety legislation puts on employers. At our conference in November we had a roll call of five hundred and six G M B members who'd ha who were either killed in work or had died from work-related disease since May nineteen seventy nine those who attended may recall the emotional er feeling that this gave to the beginning of that conference and this government then has the audacity to talk about the burdens on employers what about the burdens on the families of those whose relatives have been killed or diseased through workplace injuries by the negligence of the employers that actually employ them? We have to respond to these developments and it is being made clear now in public, that the Health and Safety Executive are giving every indication to employers that they are not going to rigorously enforce the law and indeed in the local authorities a leading figure there has said that they want to take a softly softly approach. The G M B has rejected this approach and recognized that we have to improve health and safety standards at the workplace. In the special report, specific re recommendations are made to improve the consistency of safety representatives' training improving information flow and giving more uniform support to full-time officers support in the workplace. However, the report identifies a number of areas that need to be addressed in more detail as a result we are recommendatin it, recommending that a major consultation exercise be d be conducted this year to ensure that the many ideas that people have to improve our Health, Safety and Environment Service are considered. Recommendations from that consultation exercise will be then brought back to this congress. In stressing the challenges that face us in health and safety it is not to ignore the environmental challenge however we recognize it needs to be considered much more widely so that our resources can be most effectively targeted. Mr President I move this special report on behalf of the C E C on the basis that it provides us with the framework to build on the excellent record that the G M B has on improving health, safety and environmental standards at the workplace. Thank you. Thank you very much, Nigel. Fred , C E C member, seconding the special report on Health, Safety and the Environment. President in seconding the report I would like to make the following points to our safety representatives who have to bear the responsibility for improving conditions at the workplace for our members. To be successful in improving health and safety standards we must have good workplace organization good laws good inspectors and good guidance all have their place in improving health and safety standards. However, if we cannot influence events where people actually work poor standards will result and this is particularly true during a recession as many of us here no doubt know. It is clearly recognized in the report that the safety representative's role is vital if workplace standards are to be consistently improved. Since the first of January this year safety representatives have been given legal rights to be con consulted and I quote in good time regarding the following one any measure which substantially affects the health and safety of employees two the arrangements for appointing specialist staff three any health and safety information circulated to employees four the planning and organization of any health and safety training and five, the introduction of new technologies. These important rights mean that the safety representatives must be consulted by the employer well before action is taken and when combined with the existing functions of safety representatives, they provide extensive rights to organize around health and safety at the workplace. However many employers do not comply with these legal duties unless they are pressed to do so for this reason the recommendations in section five of the report are aimed at giving support to safety representatives and full-time officials to improve workplace activity. This is a key priority in the report. During this year and next, more European directives will be agreed. The European Commission have agreed an action programme that will take us into the next century and this is despite the attitude of the present U K government. Once new laws have been passed, workplace action is needed to ensure that employers comply with the new legislation. The report clearly stresses the need to focus a major part of our resources on to workplace activity Nigel highlighted the complacent attitude of the enforcing authorities. We simply cannot re rely on the Health and Safety Executive or anybody else it is our G M B activists who will take the lead on health and safety. President, this report is the basis for developing our own action programme to improve health and safety standards at the workplace. Congress, with these points I am pleased to second the report. Thank you President. Thank you very much indeed, Fred. As I indicated, colleagues, it's my intention now to go round the regions and ask regions whether they wish to put a speaker in. First of all Birmingham again colleagues, it will be very helpful and will save time if intended speakers would come down to the front Sorry. Bert Birmingham and West Midland region, moving the Health, Safety and Environment Service Review. At our pre-delegates conference earlier this year whether it was the first one or the second one I can't remember our region unanimously accepted the policy review. The terms of reference within the document are excellent with issues spreading from shop floor organization the, the training how to tackle legislation the right to the E E C directives which hopefully will continue to, to new responsibilities with the employers. This document makes good and interesting reading full of fact individual references and a guidance for future action you don't need to be a solicitor to understand at consultation exercise will be then brought back to th conference in Blackpool this year, Nigel spoke about the, the new European directive the importance of the new regulations. He referred to the six pack and my initial thought was well, what's a six pack of Newcastle Brown Ale gotta do with Health and Safety? But Nigel did take the time to explain that b that basically this was the, the, the view that the new directive would take place keeping it simple. I'm glad to see environment put into the title it's all related. On a lighter note a fellow worker approached me only a couple of months ago er, the new European directive almost ruined his holiday he then explained he booked up to take his family to EuroDisney. On his first day of arrival he was told the authorities had closed EuroDisney down and when he asked why, he was told someone had reported to the authorities that a six foot mouse was walking round the day before. I didn't get that either until he said his name was Mick. But seriously, Nigel impresses me. He impressed our sectional conference and he will impress this conference as well and this only makes me aware that the G M B, not only now, but in the future, will be a leading force in the issues within the British and the European trades union movement. We support I move and before I go boing boing baggis Thank you. South Western Yes, I know. President, colleagues,, South Western region, speaking in support of the report. It is particularly refreshing to note the amount of self-criticism that appears throughout the report. It is equally refreshing to note that such criticism is acknowledged and solutions are readily available to provide an answer. We as an organization must be ready to accept the sterling work carried out by our, er R H S Os with the very limited resources at their disposal and particular thanks must go to those R H S Os who find themselves dual-roled as education and political officers. One way forward can be found in sections five and six of the report with section six providing enough material to devote the whole forum to on just its own. It is good that this union has taken the trouble to prepare this report with so much E C legislation in the pipeline. The matters that have been highlighted in this report are as relevant now as those which necessitated the formings of the nineteen seventy eight and nineteen ninety congress resolutions. We ask that you support this report. Thanks very much Lancashire region. President, sisters and brothers, Graham , Lancashire region, speaking on Health, Safety and Environment Service Review. Right at the start of the report we are told that the G M B should be justifiably proud of our achievements in the field of occupational health, safety over the past fifteen years. Quite rightly so but we can't get complacent health and safety is one of the most important issues of all affecting our members. Two hundred separate regulations have been introduced since nineteen seventy eight but factory inspectors have been severely cut where the average workplace now can only expect a visit once every eleven years that's why we've gotta get a backup service right right for our sa safety representatives. We're told in the report that small firms with less than twenty people have a fatal and major accident rate forty percent higher than firms employing over a thousand. But it's in the small firms where the growth is and it's usually hard to get people on any courses that a small company. We welcome the creation of the G M B Health and Safety Service specialized staff quality publications campaign and support in workplace activi activities but as long as this government allows unscrupulous employers to explore, exploit the low pay, lower inspection rates, the accident rate will climb and our safety reps will get increasingly frustrated. Health and safety cour training courses according to these reports these are poorly attended with a majority below forty percent but more worrying than that is that nearly half of G M B safety reps said they'd not received a copy of the safety rep's kits. We've got to make sure that at the very least all these reps have a kit. Included in the recommendations is for a two day training course, costing fifty thousand for two thousand places it's excellent except we're told in the report that we can't get people on courses however good they is es especially among, er, small companies. I believe we've gotta find ways of getting the information to the safety reps that can't attend courses in making sure they get the information there at the workplace. Briefing sessions on the new, new kit for full-time officials we think these should be extended to branch secretaries as well because if a person rings up and advi asks for advice, he can't get that advice, it shows the union up in bad light. With these small points I've I've made, Lancashire region supports the report and looks forward for a wider discussion at regional and branch level. Thanks Graham. Yorkshire region. John , Yorkshire and North Derbyshire, speaking in support of the Health and Safety, Environment Service Review. President, congress we should applaud the work of the Health and Environment department at National Office and in supporting this service report we must go swiftly forward into wide-ranging discussions at all levels of the G M B. The publications they have produced have been of a consistent high standard and are very user-friendly. Consideration should be given to include in the Direct Journal a supplement possibly entitled Health and Safety Direct to the Membership. Also industrial health and safety information such as welder's lung for the technical crafts section magazine. We should support the move for an increase in the use of new technologies for the storage and dissemination of information throughout the union. I know these are increasing at a very rapid rate almost as quickly as the new legislations develop and keeping accurate paper records is becoming increasingly more difficult. The Yorkshire region has, for a number of years now, combined the Health and Safety Officer's job with that of the regional education officer the two have always married together very well in the principal thrust of workplace activity it involved the training of safety representatives enabling them to carry out their role effectively. In the report which played mainly on the results of the trade union studies information unit survey the survey was only taken shortly after we had commenced the new education system therefore the figures are not necessarily reflected today. The Yorkshire region's current situation ensures that new safety representatives are invited to a two day introduction course from which they are encouraged to attend a health and safety course at National College. The take-up has been better than indicated by the survey we would support the views expressed regarding changes and in particular point thirteen. The changes in legislation have been dramatic since the mid-eighties the majority of changes coming in at the beginning of nineteen ninety three with the E C directives. We now have a legal requirement on employers which are clearly written and which we can use to our advantage providing our safety reps have been correctly trained to implement the regulations. The environment we live in must also be protected sources of pollution must be located and stopped employers clearly held liable for their actions and dealt with as severely as allowed by law. Our union is still leading the field in provision of the information and training to enable our safety representatives to deal with the ramifications of the new regulations. The situation regarding the enforcement of is disgraceful too few inspectors far too much work therefore we must encourage safety representatives to be more self-sufficient in the workplace leaving the G M B to carry on its campaign for an increase in the inspectorate. Yorkshire, North Derbyshire supports. Southern region. President, colleagues Derek , Southern region, speaking to the document on health and safety. Last year, the health and safety report was supported by my region. That report had two main objectives one was to establish a clear policy for G M B health and safety the second was to set out a training programme to establish the G M B's role in health and safety. This year's report hopes to bring about a consultation exercise to establish what to prioritize in the G M B Health and Safety Service. It will be looking at the needs of the lay reps the role of full-time officers the way we distribute the up to date information and one of the most vital to our organization is to look at the role of health and safety in the recruitment and retention of membership. The Southern region supports the initiative but urges caution. We have been told that finances for health and safety will be found but we were never told from where that money would come from. Colleagues, to promote a culture of health and safety, our starting point must be to establish a network of safety reps in the workplaces and we must have proper funds for training for all of our safety reps that is a most crucial part of the report. The introduction in January ninety three of six European directives has given us a unique opportunity to raise the profile of the G M B both in places where we have membership and elsewhere, when the message gets across how the G M B reps are so well trained and able to represent members on all health and safety issues. To make sure the G M B is at the head of the field we must have a reasonable Health and Safety Officer who would ensure that our safety reps and full-time officers are kept up to speed with all the changes in legislation and to provide the adequate training. This of course had to be monitored and accountable a as it is at present in the Southern region where we can already see the benefits. We urge the C E C to start a consultation process as soon as possible and to put their recommendations into practice. Southern region supports the document. Northern region. President, congress Eddie , Northern region, supporting the special report. Congress the G M B's record of health and safety is the envy of the trade union movement. Time and again it has been our union which has led the way on issues of health and safety whilst other unions have merely followed. It was the G M B which campaigned and won the Health and, er, Safety at Work Act. It was the G M B which campaigned for and won the regulations. And currently, as Steven stated in his address yesterday it is the G M B who are pressing for and winning improvements in the European Health and Safety Directives. Congress against this background, the Northern region welcomes this report it is an impressive report which signifies the importance that the G M B attaches to issues of health and safety and it indicates that this union will continue to maintain its high standards in this crucial area. We in the Northern region welcome in particular the recommendation of the Health and Safety Officer to beef up the health and safety education and services delivered in the regions. We look forward, Mr President, to the successful implementation of this report and to once again leading the British trade union movement in this field. President, I would take this opportunity on behalf of the region to condra sorry, congratulate Nigel on the excellent work that he has done since becoming the National Health and Safety Officer. Congress Northern region supports. London region. President, congress Ray , London region speaking in support of the motion, er sorry, the report close. But we have to identify some of the failings of the report at the ninety-f nineteen eighty five congress, motion forty urged the C E C to ensure that each region appoints an officer whose prime responsibility will be health and safety. The London region defined this as a minimum of fifty percent or more. Motion forty outlined the problems with the workplace with new technology new machinery and new practices which the membership needed effective support and backup. Eight years on the problems have not decreased but they have increased er, even more so with the present problem of employers who tend to ignore health and safety using fear of unemployment to stop complaints. The reports still do not identify by regions which regions comply with that eighty five motion. If you look at the general secretary report under the regional sections there is an invisible service you'll be unable to find the health and safety side. The special report is meant to make sure that the Health and Safety s=Service are not the Cinderella service there should be a general principle of accountability and monitoring of the service in the regions. Health and safety is the one area where shop stewards, safety representatives have to deal with on a daily basis. We need the best backup it's one of the best services we can offer for recruitment and retention. Comrades, the London region supports the m the report but with the reservation I mentioned. Thanks very much colleagues G M B Scotland. Richard , G M B Scotland. President, colleagues, supporting Health and Safety Special Report. As an organization, our success and effectiveness depends on how we organize, train and support all the activists and officers how we adjust to legislative change and how we progress our collective aims. The terms of reference contained in the report clearly identifies how the G M B should progress health and safety policy. It highlights the inadequate support that the Health and Safety Executive er, gives and their failing to enforce current legislation or prosecute those who openly disregard their responsibilities for employee safety. The government has also failed in its responsibility for the Health and Sa Safety Executive by restricting year after year adequate resources for them to carry out the function that they were designed for. If this government channelled its resources against employers who disregard the health and safety legislation as much as it channels its energy at the trade unions through the Employment Act I'm sure we would see a great decrease in accidents and fatalities at work. There has been new legislation introduced in the form of the European six pack and the cost regulations but this legislation will only be effective if it is enforced. The G M B has through its health and safety reps under the safety reps and safety committee's regulations specific legal rights which should be exercised as a matter of course. The report identifies workplace, health and safety organization and the need for training. Yes, quality training will be needed quality training which addresses the core values and the health and safety perception that will be the key to our success. We need to coordinate and further organize a better system of training we need a service that can give a quick response for those seeking guidance or information. I believe that our new computer system when it's linked to all the regions, will have the potential to access detailed health and safety information and I hope we will use it er, and make the information technology that is available to further our health and s safety service delivery. In doing so we will create the opportunity to deliver an individual service to our members through instant response and while improving our service to the members we will also improve our recruitment potential. The, the report addresses the past and current G M B policy but it is the future needs of our members that we must plan for. We must consolidate our expertise and where that expertise is not evident, we must create it. In parallel with our training strategy we must ensure sufficient funding for health and safety campaigns if we are to realize the objectives set out in this report. Governments, employers, in conclusion colleagues, do not have the right to deny our members a safe, healthy working environment. In supporting this report we will be setting a future agenda which should go some way to extending working, workers' protection for our members. I support. Midland region. President, congress, Ken , Midlands and East Coast region, speaking to C E C special report, Health, Safety and Environment. Conference, in speaking to this document we should all realize the importance of the subject that we are referring to today. The world of health and safety is a-changing rapidly and we in the G M B are, and should always be, at the forefront of the reviews that are, and have, taken place. We the G M B have an excellent record over the last fifteen years but the g our people, and more so the craftsmen within that particular g, is cause for concern and a massive scope for improvement in every area of health, safety and the environment. Our impact on industry through our green works campaign is there for all to see and from that point of view to encase it within the health and safety review is vitally important for all of us when we take the policy back to our members and advise them of the way in which we intend to go forward. Since the decision of the nineteen seventy eight congress to appoint national and regional health and safety officers the legal and political context within which they operate has changed dramatically with more legila legislation. Since nineteen seventy four over two hundred separate regulations have been introduced Right, you w you want thirty seats on that flight? No no no can't be done haven't got a clue oh dear. Anyway Just thought I'd mention the Stansted leading forward That's that's the same thing as says, it's reducing the catchment all the time What was it before? Seven 0 five Yeah well the thing is that something's gotta shift because we've got we've got all these bloody flights going out the same time Well I know but And they can't cope Every time you lead it forward like that those early hours will just reduce Well that's what I said, it's nearly half an hour later Well actually it depends on the weather don't it? It depends on the Alright well if you've got any little any little points like that then you ought to er say like, we won't actually be much longer. We'll be er five ten minutes or so Oh, is that all? Yeah. You can sit and wait if you want to Erm, okay thanks, as long as I don't to er put you off or anything Yeah, yeah you can sit and wait if you like oh no go away and come back again. Erm when any little any little points like that then we ought to er flag up yeah? But I think w I think corridor communications something like that yeah? Well he's not around for a while is he? I don't know where he's gone actually Where is he? he's gone on his holidays to the States Right then okay, so that's point twelve. That brings us to the end of the normal agenda. Any other business? Right well the office Right we'll leave that a minute, okay? Can I just erm, no I've got one more regarding communications. Just on the shall we say off-chance I asked what the situation was regarding additional lines between Norwich and Crawley as between Stansted Norwich and Crawley to see if there was anything under way and what the approximate cost would be because erm well I know there's more D D I facilities now. The tie lines are so congested it isn't true, especially with accounts being at Stansted and apparently there has been a proposal in since last March with all the costings and everything which is still waiting on an answer for improved lines which would actually take some of the computer lines and everything. Erm, I'm just surprised that that's taking that long Well it isn't Apparently the individual costs of the lines are staggering and they reckon that the cost of the calls does not outweigh it but what I think is certainly outweighed is the cost of all our time trying to get through on these lines Tie lines? Yeah Oh well Something came up in respect of the tie lines which I'd just like to mention while we're here in respect of. There's been a little bit of shall we say erm not as good co-operation as there might have been, especially between and recently. Now are aware that are losing the agency stuff therefore services should improve generally but this is mostly and the business travel, you know duty travel, cruise positioning that sort of thing, to the extent that erm and two of the ops people paid a visit to last week for a liaison meeting and one thing that I thought was absolutely remarkable that came out was in respect of complaining that they could never get through to anybody in erm in , they couldn't get a reply from the extensions and they couldn't send messages or anything. They weren't aware that we have in the internal telephone directory all the direct dialling lines listed. They weren't aware the were on that they could send them messages. It's absolutely stagger it's such a basic thing that you know that you know well well it's erm it seemed so disappointing to me that I mean we go to the bother of producing what a fifty odd page telephone directory and people don't even look at it Yeah well that's Erm I'm g one thing I'm gonna do is ask if she'll flag major changes when she produces the new telephone directories. Maybe just a little front page you know wh look at the big revisions for the sales department or something like that instead of just, when you get a new telephone directory, putting it in your folder and binning the old one, make certain people realise there've been changes. I think it's worth identifying cos it might sort of alleviate this sort of problem Mhm Okay, that's it Alright Apart from the subject that you're coming back to yes we'll come back to that in a minute.? Erm right just t message on secretaries clubs, going to put them on a back burner for a while then in terms of actually forming a club as such Well we need t we need t we we need to establish ah I hope we do it. Right In a set format that is circulated and where's the administrative back up? That's what you want isn't it? Mhm But I mean I fuck question the the er the t question of the validity of the secretaries club in the Ambassador Hotel when it's in bloody Receivership Yeah well that hotel but there are other ones Yeah Well it's it's it's a it's a bit of a weighty subject that. I think we ought to er Yeah okay Why don't you and I talk about it separately then Yeah alright If you want Yeah okay Yeah? Next time we're in the office Right Secretaries clubs and and what's required and what's done. The worst thing you can do is set these things and then cock it up because secretaries is people that pride themselves on being administratively perfect But you know they do, they do pull people in The one in Yorkshire that used to meet at erm hotel on the A one near Pontefract, used to get people over from Hull for that. What? Sixty miles they used to come over for a good evening at those and maybe two principles presentations but certainly You all reckon there's good to that The other thing I had this idea of erm you know customer relations erm in fact we give tickets away when people have had problems. We've had times when we've written to commercials and given them free tickets to dig ourselves out of a hole and things. I wondered if we could look at particularly customer relations producing some sort of voucher worth fifty pound or hundred pound or twenty five pound and er we have a stock of those printed up you know oh Christ it's the print money and if we have a chap who's erm had bad experience on the plane what we would do now is is give him two free tickets. For instance that chap you gave those tickets to to Munich Yeah You know to encourage him t well why not just send them a voucher for seventy f seventy five pounds to go towards an ticket next time they book? No no no so Or twenty five pound My my my My just like they do the two for one No my philosophy with customer relations has always been that you don't give somebody a refund, you give them some tickets to fly again so it's keeps them flying Yeah we don't give them a refund, I didn't say a refund, I said a voucher Well a voucher's cash no a voucher to use against a flight against an flight, all branded How do they do that? accounting problems. What's your objective here? What're you trying to achieve? Just pl placate somebody? to stop giving away free seats when these people are prepared to pay Oh only give them partial you mean Yeah in other words yeah, we we you're gonna complain and to not send them a cheque you give them two free seats which we know the cost of that is is minimal. Nevertheless if they were going to fly again they were gonna pay for a seat and they're only looking for some recompense towards a new new ticket what's wrong with sending them a voucher y'know, a properly produced voucher that we c that's controlled properly by and all they do is guarantee any travel at their normal travel agent, do the business, attach the voucher to the B S P Well he'd have to process his direct like the two for one voucher or something like that Why couldn't do it?doing it Well the trade would be benefiting because when we give away free tickets we're taking commission away from them. This way we're s we're not. We'll give them the full commission on the full ticket Yeah, but it is another procedure and Well they complain doing two for ones I mean never mind this They'd get the full commission on the ticket oh God And just clip the Perhaps the best way of doing it would be to give th erm them an N C O Why not give them a duty free voucher next time they fly? gonna be worth a lot of money, with some people you've got to give them a couple of free tickets The duty free voucher though would go to the passenger whereas the th erm the company which most of these will be for We send it to whoever needs it, the company or the passenger yeah but if it was a duty free voucher give someone a twenty five duty free voucher some of these people are gonna want Yeah but it's something personal Yeah that's what I mean It's like air miles isn't it? Well it's low this is lower cost than what we're doing currently , we're giving away, we're getting nothing only a cost of of twenty five quid on the seat. I'm suggesting we send that man a voucher for fifty pound that his company or he puts towards the next time they buy a full fare or an Apex and then we actually get fifty quid or a hundred and fifty quid. You're actually giving away nothing. You've only got the cost of printing a voucher. I think I think we give away far too many free tickets Well I m d done it myself I mean I mean Not us not us, every time I speak to somebody about something, you know marketing can do it, y'know everybody's d giving away free tickets as a way out of y'know compensate the people, re-dressing the situation. Why not just send them out with a n y'know a nice letter and the voucher. If we sent y'know what's w c y'know other companies do that. If you g if you have a problem with Burtons y they don't send you a free suit, do they? They send you a Burton's voucher to the value of whatever you're looking for, be it ten quid or f and you go in there and you buy a suit you know and everybody's happy. What's the difference? Why do we give away Not only are we incurring the cost of what we're giving away but we're losing revenue with people that would have flown with us anyway Well I think you need to follow that one up actually. If you wanna follow that one up with customer it needs how it'll work you bring it up at the update and get some feedback from that Well maybe You've got the er people like I'll bring it up voucher for er If y'know if it's possible t I would have thought M C A might be the easiest way of doing it but I'll think about it because the passenger could hand the M C A over to the agent, together with a little note that we have attached to it. Dear mister travel agent please accept this as part payment of so and so. You will receive full cash on the ticket Yeah, agent's happy, taken, we're making money. In fact I believe I'll check with how we'd go about it administrative accounting wise And then of course the agent I'll just put down voucher for compensation case to be investigated Next? No, that's it That's it ? Nothing? No A O B. The only A O B I've got is trade mags and subscriptions. Right, I'm gonna get one of the girls in the office to send out a note and find out who gets what trade mag cos the supply of T T G's and Travel Weekly's has sort of dried up and I don't know who gets them. I don't know whether reps get them at home, do they? Some of them do yeah Do they subscribe to them themselves? Yeah What, and pay for it themselves? No no no no would pay on the credit card What d'you mean credit card? Pay on the credit card, subscribe visa card What, their own visa card? No no We phoned up T T G and Travel Weekly and they've only got five or six names on on each list Well they're the ones who get it then I wanna send a circular out. I want people to tick off what they get and what they don't get right? round robin? Yes well Well that's no good I get the T T G delivered to my home cos I subscribe for it and I get the business one that you do when yeah well I did that centrally you see. Yeah Everybody gets one and I wanna s I don't wanna I wanna I wanna bring these in-house via the sales office and have them all centrally distributed cos it's no good well if you read the T T G and the Travel Weekly it's already taken two days. If you don't get it there and then it's not worth reading Well there's no point in bringing them in-house then because the people need them at their homes administration of it in house Oh I beg your pardon right the addresses will be home addresses yeah. So got that as a little project and on that subject let's talk about They won't send them to home addresses free? No T T G and Travel? We don't get any free. Now cut all back all free copies Have they Yes. You get four and that's about it. Everything else you pay for. I don't mind, I'll pay for it. I'm not bothered about paying for them Okay I'll just make sure that er we get them. Alright sales office then. What're we gonna do about ? I've spoken to right er and owes me a few favours and I've said er would you consider her completing her training until the end of May middle of May which she does at the and then if she's any good, take her on, providing she gets a driving licence. Old mate, old pal. what did he say He said yes I said I said cos you don't know but she's a n she's a nice girl, she looks alright in uniform, she's not very bright but she's brighter than some of the ones you've got er give her a meet and greet job where she just has to smile and point people in the general direction of the bogs and things like that, er, I said and she'll be alright She looks bloody smart in uniform He said but she'd be considered along with all the others but she ain't gonna get a job with terminal full time when her contract runs out on May the eighteenth if she doesn't get her finger out and get dr driving test passed and buy herself a car. Of course, this is a catch twenty two situation because she hasn't got the money to buy a to have the driving lessons or the money to buy the car cos she gets crap wages get er terminal Yeah shifts shifts. No public transport from mate at five o'clock in the morning if not earlier. I can't say, can't do more than that. He's prepared to consider her application extremely favourably. on site time- keeping and sickness is low but at the end of the day when it comes to the middle of May then she ain't gonna get a sh she ain't gonna be employed anyway to be quite honest, unless she pulls her finger out. But sh you know what she's like. spoken to her, spoken to her, spoken to her, she doesn't get the message. And she's now getting extremely bored with that job. It's fairly obviously and her heart's not in it. She's not really enthusiastic about it and of course no doubt we're getting problems again, stuff going missing, stuff like that, whatever Yeah I think all I can say about that is I think the introduction of the new part timer the new , two or whatever you wanna call her. I mean she's shit hot she does I mean she's pretty efficient isn't she? And pretty good anyway so we've got two good part-timers in there That was the best thing we ever did, taking on two part-timers Yeah yeah justifying their own sufficiency Despite getting I don't think that was a good idea And I I can't understand it and I still haven't got to the bottom of the reason why is doing, seems to me to be doing a lot of work herself Yeah well she's never been shown how to delegate to delegate yeah well I mean that's this is why I think I should bring forward a supervisors course for , for , for , for Yeah And get it done as soon as possible Yep right a and get them some of the skills that're required and hopefully that'll help out We'll have to watch one's sickness the week away Yeah she's started to go off sick a lot but she seemed a lot better when she came back after Christmas Yeah A lot more enthusiastic. Did you get that impression? yeah yeah well I know she was getting that way towards Christmas. She was sort of c getting over the getting over the disappointment and she was getting a little bit more user- friendly and she No no but er they they are seems to be a bit better er about it. I think it's because she's got a little pal now with the other Surely it's just cos they smoking together in the afternoons y'know Surely the the erm y'know harmony in the work place and all that. It must there must be it must be possible to speak to her about the fact that she's not communicating. I mean that can't be right. Surely it We've had this before Surely we shouldn't allow that c to continue and surely that's er that's er can be made into quite a semi-formal type of that's not on is it? What? Well it's not disrupting work. I mean how can you justify talking to her about that when the efficiency is improved since she hasn't been talking to people? Well that's only because it was terrible before though Yeah but it's still improved Yeah She's gonna turn round and say you can't complain about my work rate and we're not complaining about her work rate. Her work rate's improved. Yeah but what stand are you gonna measure against ? No but well erm I'm not sure I follow the logic of that. I mean if you're saying that by not communicating everybody's performance gets better, let's tell them all not to talk to each-other Well in theory that's the way most typing pools works Yeah but it's not a typing pool, is it? Well it is to a certain extent it's a bit of a typing pool as well as a sales office but in Well okay in theory they should not be able to talk to each-other because they're either answering the phone and talking to somebody else bloody getting on looking at the screen and typing Yeah but you know what I mean don't you? Yeah I know what you mean but it's not it doesn't necessarily work out that way cos Is still intent on looking for another job do you know? No she she's been looking but I don't know if she's still looking, I don't know. She's probably looked and found she couldn't get anything better. That's probably nearer the truth Well I think, I've gotta say that I think it might be ha it might be working better now with there but when not there and we go to and say can you tell me where X Y Z is, the response you're gonna get is I'm sorry I don't know and the reason she won't know is that she's never bothered to ask because she's not talking so it's okay while there but it won't be when she's not because I've had that, sorry I don't know. I don't do that you know Well she's not gonna be co-operative because she's not being paid to be the supervisor Well surely this is something we've got t it's got to come out and come out come out and say I don't I'm not at the moment I'm quite happy. I'm as happy as I can be. If we can if we can shift aside erm and get rid of that problem then I think that's the s probably the priority rather than the situation. It hasn't affected your area has it? It's not ideal because erm there's been a number of minor instances where when they don't speak to each-other, you speak to one or the other and Well you see the thing is across If I sit down and talk to I've said this and I'll say it I've said it ad nauseam. It's job now, getting paid to be the supervisor gotta supervise the office right? Yep and I can't do it, that's the whole point of having a supervisor Yep therefore if I talk to then it's no good Put it this way if I was having a problem with a member of my staff, or was, and we felt we wanted your help then you would come in and talk to them Well what you're saying is that me and ought to talk to her Yeah in the first place. I think this is what you're saying is that Huh? erm is not talking to in the first place No surely not ideal so we say to you it's not ideal so the supervisor, so you have to say to , this has gotta be sorted, this is not ideal, this isn't gonna work when you're not here. If she then requires your help or whatever then that it has to go from there. I'm not suggesting that you, you're right, I don't think you should speak to but I can't see that that's well maybe they're more efficient now they bloody well ought to be, there's twice as many people in there. I think the way it should be tackled is speak to about it, say that we still believe that y'know it can't go on forever obviously it can't go on forever because I think the longer it goes on the worse it'll become in all honesty Yeah I mean it's gone on long enough I mean I don't mind giving her a couple of weeks or something Do you do you not think it would be better for us both to speak to ?speak to her and say obviously you were upset about not getting the job but this non- communication thing is not really erm going to you know be good for the sales office in the long term. Is there something you want to say? Or, you know, how are we gonna solve this problem? I think we've gotta tackle it like that cos it won't go away will it? If anything it'll get worse because it'll be more of an effort to re re-communicate It's the new year now oh well, what d'you think? D'you think there's anything further in me considering my ideas of them having half an hour not working session a week? if they're not speaking to each-other No but they'll have to then won't they? They can't just sit there and saying nothing. They'd have to talk about things. Oh well that's another thing for to get under her wing isn't it, how she's going to integrate her department?frankly won't know anything about motivating people Well you see I sit down on a I sit down on a fairly regular basis with now and try to give her direction and er point out, and I do make the point, about every time and , right? Er and complained about her pay, right, so I've got her upgraded. Erm hopefully upgraded. We'll get the fax in the office in the next couple of weeks hopefully er you know it's all it's all winning by inches there's no grand great play that's gonna work with that. It's gonna be erm bit by bit isn't it? It's going to put the erm actual availability up quite a bit of people having that fax there Yeah that's right Yeah well it is it is and also we might get to a situation where by er you know people are slitting each-other in the throat at this rate no way no way but y I can't I have to say and I know right can't give her what she wants is somebody to sit down somebody to sit her down and talk to her and you can't give her the benefit of that because it's a little battle right between the two silly little girls if you like and if that j if that happens had won right and that's the way will feel it No Oh yes oh yes I don't follow what you mean, how d'you mean? well playing the game playing the game and th and she's prepared to sit it out and play it as long as she can. If she's hauled in the office with me and there she's she's as far as she's concerned she's won. The situation would deteriorate after that. I don't think it would get any better. Well okay cos she'll say ha ha ha they've cracked they've cracked It's not acceptable as it is, is it? I don't think it's acceptable as it is. If she wants to go down the road making life more unpleasant then then we got down that road as well and she'll be the loser Well the thing at the end of and we don't we needed her before because we had one typist, we don't need that now, we c we can cover the thing is that yeah but she's one of the best typists I have to say. I can trust more than I can some of the others, some of the mistakes you get Well okay but I mean that doesn't that well I don't know I mean I think pretty good, the new is pretty good, not a problem I've had problems with She's not as good as the new two fax numbers and things put on but that alright let's give she came back to me the other day and said I cannot get this fax through and had actually typed down the wrong fax number two or three mistakes recently and not dictated mistakes, copy mistakes. On the whole she's very good and she's very very quick I mean I get the impression that likes working for and myself and she likes her own sphere of influence right which is fair enough as far as it goes yeah but when she's not there then I have real problems. When she was away for those ten days I mean certain things just couldn't be done because no-one knew well no because hasn't hasn't I can recollect the brief you gave to and we all agreed it is that everybody would be able to do yeah she spoke to and said we've discussed it cos I asked whether she'd done that, she said she'd spoken to and said we've discussed that we should share the work more equally and said no I'm happy with the way things were and left it that way it's like when she asked her whether she would change her hours from half past nine to six to cover the office and said no I'm quite happy doing what I'm doing and couldn't have coped with the confrontation you see. This is where is lacking in a little bit of er you know authority or she's not quite sure right. Changing somebody's hours is a little bit different but one of the things I'm thinking of in the longer term and I I bounced this of er was that if groups moved to Stansted could not be moved across to groups to sort this problem out because I think she's getting bored in what she's doing Groups to do what? one of the groups people what, pick up the phone and sell on the phone? well it's not selling is it? I mean it's t a lot of it's order taking and quoting I thought you wanted her to be more pro-active? yeah but you'll have one or two people more pro-active because the bulk of the job the three other people who will be there will be order-takers dealing with allocations and this sort of thing and you'll need somebody to erm no it's not addressing the issue but I said in the longer term that could be one of the options I don't yeah I couldn't have somebody in my team who wasn't bloody talking to somebody else and that's what I think whatever you do I think it's gotta be done and if she can if she thinks she's won and all the rest of it it's pride now actually cos what's of course it's pride, it's been pride since the start. It's been pride since the start and it's pathetic silly little girls isn't it? I mean that's all it is being very very er childish girls have a tendency to do that sort of thing don't they? They don't they bear grudges don't they and they don't go away but yeah but that's that's fair enough but that doesn't mean we have to er alright well I'll have a I'll have another chat with when I get the flipping chance and then because I don't speak to at all now and that can't be right and the reason I don't is because I know the response I'm gonna get, blank look Well I mean you never actually got much of a response before to be quite honest with you well no I didn't but that only was because she was focusing her attention on and work so I never had need to I'm quite happy with the service giving well maybe maybe that's the answer are you ? well I think she's been fully occupied with your stuff since she came back, she hasn't touched any of mine up to last night really? well to be quite honest I mean th that sounds like good er justification as far as I'm concerned for moving a moving her work to somebody else or moving her on to somebody else you see up to now she hasn't had a chance to okay maybe it's erm what d'you mean by that? irrelevant now can do your work can do your work or can do your work, whatever, maybe that'll maybe that'll mix it up a bit well something we've gotta do something I think do something well to be quite honest I'll I'll state my point of view at the moment. I don't give a damn. I mean I think it's wor as far as I'm concerned I'm g w I think we're all getting out of it what we want I would agree with that Yeah we're getting out of it what we want. The fact that there's like a sort of stand off position between two individuals in the office, the stupid thing about it is she's blaming for what's happened to her and had nothing to do with it no I know I mean that's the thing is tha the stand up position has been created by us yeah but talks to me. Still I know we crea we've created the stand up between them in so much as s she blames for what's happened t to her. It's us that promoted and surely if we created the situation it might work in our favour but it I mean it can't be very pleasant for other people yeah but the scenario is it's like er gets the national accounts job without interviewing everyone else and someone yeah but I deal with that don't I? that's what I mean, that's what the scenario is yeah I'd deal with it you wouldn't allow somebody else who'd got the sulks on because they weren't interviewed no exactly and this is not what we're doing in this case yeah because the person er who's job it is to deal with the sulks for want of a better phrase there is not is preferring not to tackle the issue because as far as she's concerned it's not affecting the efficiency of the office, that's what I'm trying to say and it's not, in fact it's added to the efficiency of the office if anything. I know what you mean I mean alright well we'll ask this question again then after gone on holiday to the States and see whether how long's she away for? ten days is acting supervisor then? if it doesn't is acting supervisor then? Oh well that's er that's a classic isn't it? Exactly. Who's gonna run the office then when is not there then? That means gotta brief of what there is outstanding cos that's when you find out the efficiency of a department isn't it? That's like when you find out how good my department is or , when we're not here yeah run on or does it come to a grinding fucking cock up? and that's what I think will happen when is not there well that's always what's happened in the past exactly that's why we made her the supervisor exactly, so if it still happens in the future we haven't moved full forward have we? We've promoted and nothing's changed. I agree with that statement you've just made that's indefatigable logic big word when are you hoping to get the supervisory courses? A S A P well at the end of the month oh I see it end of this month? well end of Feb more like it is it gonna be before or after that was all. I mean why a position to do the work prior to her going away As it stands at the moment all we've done is thrown numbers at the typing yeah yeah so we create a supervisor, we've thrown numbers at the er the typing, swopped around a few hours, changed a bit here, changed a bit there, it's all cosmetic stuff around the edges phase one to use your words in res now we need phase two I think alright then, fair enough I I I yeah I agree I can't I have to buy that one good but I think needs probably some training before we attack phase two and ? well yeah okay well I'll get that supervisors course I'll give N H A a ring and see how fast they can do it yeah cos really needs it as well doesn't she? yeah yeah? Alright then okay erm it's five o'clock now. Erm It's the most productive meeting we've ever had I'm sure well for a long time numbers dictate these sort of things but anyway now I'll be absolutely crushed hour now, five o'clock on a Friday. six hours. Yeah er Okay then I've as far as I'm concerned draw the meeting to a close now. The next meeting erm Thursday? which is Feb tenth. I think we'll have it in Norwich actually cos I wanna w want a few words with the day after so while I'm in Norwich Norwich and can hobble to the meeting Okay, you've got all your dates for your appraisals. We shall stick to those and er I'll sort of see you all er anon. Right? Okay? Right, thanks a lot for your attention and I shall see you when I see you. That's it my man you can switch it off now Great, thanks very much for your help That's alright see the result free flight to New York or something Well did you enjoy your holiday? Good, Aha. good, how you keeping? Fine. Except I'm awful awful tired all of the time. Tired? as that. Now. That's the only I came up to tell you. Mhm. I'm not on tablets for Mm. Mhm. Er I've been finding that normally I can get up early in the morning, give Heather a ring or if she's staying with me give her a shout, you know for her work. Aha. And that's me up for the day. And I'm sitting dozing, falling as asleep all the time. Oh right. I get up with What. the intention of, the day's over before Aye, what what's what's your er what's your sleeping like, is that quite good or is it broken? No, well mostly toilet in the middle of the night but I go straight back to bed and go back to sleep again. No problem getting to sleep again, No. no. Come in. Come on. work to do. Hiya. I'm . I could be seeing . We'll we'll give your Gran some nice medicine? Will we? Mm. S Will we, right. Here Gran. Can you give that to your mum? Leave that Lindsey . Lindsey bring it over please. Can you give that to your mum Lindsey? That's a girl. Right leave that with . That's a girl . Come on, come on, say What's that? And you had a good holiday did you? Yes, I got the flu in right enough. I think it was going to the extreme heat and damp down in , you know whether it was cold in . Was it? Mm, we went back to the heat in , and the last week it rained every single day . Now they're back to the good weather again. They knew you were coming home. Must have done. Well let's get you back on your feet again . Look at me. Turn you into a human being. Oh Lindsey's away, oh yes she's back again. Can you give this to your Gran? What have I got there Doctor? Can you give that to your Gran, let me see you. Ah that's a good girl. Right, it's your , your Lorazepam Mhm. and I've given you a good old fashioned tonic to get your strength all up again. I've got a To get you,to get you ready for looking after Yes, aye, okay. If I want to poison you Mammy. young I'll know what to No, but you know when you say like Mammy. to take cough and things like, and I nearly died the other night, I'd taken one and I'd taken some of this cough , Aye. and then that chap that used to come a bit, he says not to take er what is that thing that you use? To use it on food, condiment stuff. Mhm, that's right . What's that? And I was sitting eating mussels with vinegar in them . What's that? and all of a sudden I developed she'd be on the phone going, I've just eaten mussels with vinegar in them . What's that? No no. They're quite safe. on the phone, Well I don't feel well. So I'll be back up to see you What's hat? next month, on the twelfth of May, because that's when my next line's due. Right, okay. Okay? Well that'll that'll get things things boosted up for you again and we'll have you back Thanks a lot. Okay. Right, say bye bye, Right, bye bye, Bye. will you come back another day? Aye. Right, Aye. okay, whatever you say. Alright. Yes, that's better. Thanks Doctor. Cheerio. Alright, cheerio now. See you Doctor. Cheerio. And carry on just as if er we were proceeding immediately after the proposed excellent introduction and as if the intervening weeks just hadn't occurred. When this matter was discussed at housing committee, I believe it's only last week but it seems a lot longer ago, I spoke at some length about the errors and fallacies in the report arguing against a case that officers have put forward, pointing out mistakes and erroneous conclusions that seem to have been drawn from some very flimsy evidence. I promised members after that erm meeting that er I would bring forward different arguments tonight and that is exactly what I hope to do. I want to speak on only one angle and that is capital. Now most large businesses actually need capital. They need it to finance new projects and which they ultimately hope those projects will bring in a profit on the capital employed. But once employed as capital that money stays there, it's stuck and hopefully it earns money but it's stuck there forever until the sale of that asset is is a achieved. Many companies when needing to finance new projects have to raise more capital. This is often done by obtaining money in the form of loans, venture capital guarantees and that sort of effort. But if those forms of capital aren't available then the business has to raise capital by some other means and this is very often done by liquidated assets that they currently hold and releasing the capital for the new project. So the use of capital is fluid, right, it it's in a state of dynamic equilibrium as a biologist would be prepared to call it. And it is not it is not fixed it is not fixed or in geological terms, petrified. We in this council operate . We in this council operate a housing business with an annual turnover in excess of twenty four million pounds. Anyone who says we are not operating a business is deluding themselves. We have an acknowledged need to invest more capital to provide more housing for the most needy in our population. The way it is at present, we cannot , we cannot get more loot to put into the new project but the bank manager, i.e. the Chancellor of the Exchequer, reminded us a few months ago that the other way of funding our projects he encouraged us to look at our current assets and if possible liquidate some of that asset and fund it, or or use it to fund our new schemes and this Mr Mayor is what we should be doing. We must sell some of our houses and use the money we gain from that to fund the provision of new housing in the City. To miss out on the opportunity afforded to us by the Chancellor of the Exchequer is to deny those in the greatest housing need the opportunity to get decent low cost housing. So my the, in my mind the best way forward is for this council to promote the right to buy and I fully support this motion and I would urge members of this council to ignore the report that comes back from the housing committee. Thank you Mr Mayor. Thank you Mr Mayor erm a week is a quite a long time in housing but er er especially housing finance terms, I mean the system's probably gonna change again by, you know, by that sort of time. I think it's quite remarkable er that Councillor can come along and blindly say, well we've had a report back to housing committee, housing committee's considered this matter and the vast majority of people found it fairly unacceptable but we'll ignore that, we'll ignore that, fine, well I s'pose if you want to ignore it that's fine but I think w we do face here a a key issue and the issue of capital receipts, as you rightly say, is an important one. Now question is whether or not there is a simple ability to realise a capital receipt and use it I think, and if that were true, if what you're saying is true and there was some net gain to be made very easily then I think we would have a hard time, perhaps, refusing what you're saying. But it isn't true. That's the whole point. It is not a simple case that we can run along, sell a few houses, get the capital receipts and suddenly we can go off and have a wonderful programme and replace the assets which we have sold and when we're talking about assets in this case I think there's one crucial difference between us and you and that is we recognise that that isn't just an asset it is a person's home a person's home, that's so important an a I'm, just to talk about it as if it is is something else, y'know, just some petrified lump of cattle, petrified lump of stock money that was doing no good whatsoever, is a nonsense and I think most of us would agree that it is a complete and utter nonsense. Anyway why, why can't we easily use these capital receipts? Well there are a number of reasons, some of which are specific to the Cambridge to the context of this authority. As you will be well aware, as a member of housing committee, we do actually have faced a substantial crisis in terms of the availability of land which we can make available for building, that is one of the problems, possibly a short term problem, but nonetheless one of the problems key ones, which we face here. So we can't just realise the asset, dash out and build a house through a housing association because we have this crucial land problem. Now if our assets if by promoting the right to buy, by having capital receipts we seem to have a large balance building up, there is the distinct risk given the sort of policies that this government has pursued over time of a we will be running a risk there, we don't know what they're going to do, you don't know what they're going to do. But let's face it I mean if a lot of local authorities are in similar sorts of positions and a lot of balances are building up, well the money just might run away mightn't it it's happened before, I think it might happen again. I mean I don't, I don't believe that your government is stupid er it may be immoral on occasions, it may be wrong but I don't believe it's necessarily stupid. They've had a long time to crack a lot of these problems pardon What's the evidence? Well admit I I cannot actually bring an evidence at this point in time to support that er, that er er assertion. So if you were serious about promoting social housing over time what you would be working for is not a stop go economy in housing, not a stopped go regime in terms of halas housing finance, but a stable, a long term commitment towards er er a financial regime that will actually bring that housing through and that is something you have not done. I mean the autumn statement blindly goes a hundred percent to a hundred percent use of capital receipts. It just as go back. Now that's no way no way to run the railway I was gonna say but that's probably probably not the best choice of words in the present circumstances. But it isn't, it isn't a way to actually run a decent social housing programme. We need stability over the medium term at the very least in order to produce the units that we need, not this sort of one minute you're off, one minute you're not and again, if you were serious the resources were already there, there in terms of the capital receipts that people already had. You could've let us use some of that eight, over eight million pounds that we have stuffed away, set aside to actually promote our social housing programme. So basically, I don't think that it is a simple picture of being able to get a capital receipt and go out and use it. There will be occasions where indeed if people ar people in marginal circumstances are encouraged to buy then we will find, as the local authorities, that they will not be able to raise a mortgage in in in the private sector and we will actually have to supply the mortgage ourselves so where's the capital receipt gone? It's disappeared really hasn't it? Because we we've had to provide mortgage. So, time and time again, when you actually look at it, when you actually look at this position that we find ourselves in, there isn't an easy receipt to be made that can be used that actually provided what the business is about. Alright it you wanna call it a business the business is about provide social housing to answer housing need in this town. I don't actually really believe at the end of the day that that is something you that is rightly called business. It is a service, we are engaged in providing a housing service to answer housing need. What we plead with the government all the time is allow us a regime, a financial regime, that is reasonable and stable in order to do that. Let us not be fooled by short termism met by silly schemes that somehow promise an Eldorado which doesn't exist. Thank you. . Erm,. Yes Mr Mayor. I am very intrigued by councillor 's analogy with this counc er count er housing services by this council being a business and the Chancellor of the Exchequer being some kind of bank manager. I mean how many bank managers b force their businesses to sell off their fixed assets at a colossal discount for heavens sake. I mean if this is the way bank managers operate up and down the country no wonder the economy's in a mess. businesses are going bust all the over place. Actually erm although councillor is quite correct that we're providing a service, erm in some ways it would be nice if the government did give us the freedom to operate our business as we choose to do so. We would therefore be able to provide a much better service. Now it's perfectly now the cost er the benefits from sort of marketing right to buy is really very, very dubious erm the government has shown time and again that what it takes then gives with one hand, it takes away with another and the costs are obvious, we are fragmenting our housing stock, we are putting it, we are likely to end up with more and more with a higher proportion of poor properties and erm there's also the risk that if we do really have to be promoting right to buy we're going to have people who are probably not sure whether they can afford to buy their house or aren't sure whether they even want to buy their house. I think they should be treated as adults and allowed to make that decision for themselves. There's n I doubt if there are any tenants who aren't aware of their right to buy and there's there are in fact plenty of private mortgage lenders around ready to sort erm try and persuade tenants that they can go ahead and buy their homes. I really don't think there is any point to this motion. Frankly I think from our colleagues in the conservative party shouldn't really be wasting our time here with these silly motions, erm what's needed is if you're gonna improve the housing situation in the city and in the country as a whole, we need to be allowed to use our capital receipts, all the ones we've piled up, and we need to also inject money into the national economy to build new homes and incidentally to get the economy moving again and start bringing down the level of unemployment. So our colleagues shouldn't be wasting our time, they should be using their own party's internal democracy, there is if there is such a thing. To change the government's the policy if that's what one calls it, it seems to change from year to year. Thank you. Here, here chair committee. Thank you Mr Mayor. Mr Mayor er I don't want to be long in this debate because I'm sure we've probably all made up our minds exactly what we're going to vote on because long evenings it stretches and turns would like to say er er and that is though councillor urges us to be more totally er which went on the housing committee I think it would be very wrong of us to do that, leaving that er the vote at the end of that particular debate was unrelated to and er these democracy that's er situation. Erm, I think it's worth saying that er us j just reiterating on what councillor has just said and that is that I think most tenants are very well aware of the right to buy and er er the motion being unnecessary but what happens with the motion is that it possibly attracts people who really in many ways cannot actually afford to buy er to take advantage of their rights but who might be persuaded by very persuasive tactics to do so. Now er they are then in a situation perhaps often those people who are er less financially well off and sometimes in jobs which this particular might very well lose tomorrow erm their in a difficult situation as far as paying back mortgages is concerned. It's worth also noting at this point that if you are a tenant and renting and you lose your job you are eligible for housing benefit, erm if you if you were er buying your house, although you do get some er er you get the interest I believe on your mortgage paid, there are lots of other things that do not get paid but the thing is that if you have a reduction in your income which might happen where one partner say lost a job, er you s you're eligible for housing benefit but you get nothing as far as company paid mortgage is concerned. So on that ground I feel would be very worried by by promoting the right to buy, erm I've said everything I want to I didn't really want to elongate this this er this debate and I think it's but I think, I don't believe that Councillor mentioned the the the er the . We were talking I think this is the thing about clawback, er this year our erm receipts taken into account are two point three eight million as opposed to last year er this is taken into account we drew four hundred and seventy five thousand, that's a huge jump erm the government by in telling us we can send this er this er what I call minuscule carrot erm this year er the capital receipts from November last year until December next year erm a anyone had undoubtedly for most of that back in the in in the use er er a grant and I think it, as the government have actually kept extremely quiet on this subject, that seemed to be the scenario that seems most likely to happen. I think our erm . all those in favour. A couple of points I'd like to respond to councillors . Firstly I have never seen a more clearer er grant from the government to actually let you build houses this year, this is whole point of th th this should happen and if we don't take it up I believe that in future years to come we shall regret it very, very strongly indeed. As far as promotion is concerned, yes I will not deny every tenant probably knows about the right to buy but then everybody knows there are mars bars and mars bars spend millions of pounds promoting their product. You have to y y y you have to promote the product to make people buy it. I'm following on from that. Of course people must be advised carefully but it shows great lack of faith in human na in their abilities and a great arrogance on our part Mr Mayor if we fail to market the ideas simply because we don't feel the populus are competent to understand it. If we fail to take this opportunity Mr Mayor, as I as I feel we are about to do I am a hundred percent convinced that in years to come people will look back at this year, or however long it happens to be and say they missed out on a golden opportunity to make social, to make more houses and to make social housing better in this city and across the country. I very much hope that you will in fact support the motion as originally intended. Could I just point out that councillor that contrary to call my bluff, deviation and repetition are no grounds for allowing allowing . All those in favour of the proposals please show and all those against. I now turn to the adoption minutes of city hall and now it is a process of in that city hall did not endorse a recommendation from the finance panel, the budget that came from finance panel erm so we are in the slightly unusual position of having to debate the proposals of finance panel as we were recommended to do by city hall, erm that means as I understand it that er the chair of city hall will now present the annual budget statement erm and since he is going to do that in a form of an amendment er that seven other unusual features about the way in which we would normally do it which would mean that there would be er a budget statement and where there would then be the the formal proposals and amendments themself, erm so what I would propose is to try and make sure that everybody has, has maximum opportunity to have their say erm because no two amendments can be on the floor at one time er to take what the leader of the council said first of all erm then to allow the other two leaders to present their budget alternatives as it were, without it be, this is just not didn't take it at that point if they don't want to. But to present the full scenario and then vote er on the the different items er so that voting is done on items on the amendment before we then proceed er if you want to we just have to go to amendments to that because of course no two amendments can be on the floor at the same time. Er, what I would prefer to do is to er listen to the amendment put forward by the as if that were an amendment to the adoption minute since there's nothing to be adopted at the moment, erm I will then speak on that amendment, well I would probably speak against it erm at that point er there could be a vote on that amendment line by line. When that vote is finished er there there's then the opportunity for further amendment. Absolutely. A a a and that i i if that's sort of what you're saying. That that that's exactly what I was, I was . Mr Mayor on on a point of order Mr Mayor er standing order sixty two refers explicitly to community charge or the poll tax, I think that before we move into this debate we should amend that so that it does refer to the council tax which is what we will be debating. to my left has anything to say on the subject. My only slight reservation is whether it's possible to have,t t to move an amendment to standing order . Can, can we take that as being unanimous? Yes. Good, good. Thank you very much. Leader of the councils. We have known for a number of years that we with every other council in the land, are facing the government that does not believe in local government. That believes that local councils should operate services, should do it at the dictate of the department of the environment and indeed it's regrettable that we are surrounded by some local authorities who feel that their world is precisely that. Far be it for me to mention Huntingdon district council but that is one which immediately leaps to mind. The fact that their citizens leak into the city to avail themselves of our facilities is something that we might deal with in another sphere, even on day residents were seen to attend the theatre in this town recently, erm unfortunately this authority doesn't see fit to actually subsidise the theatre. However,it is that means that over the last few years every time we have actually debated about budget we recognised that the force had unwillingly and against the judgement of the majority of this council, not necessarily er bounded by political affiliation, we have to be getting down further and further towards the completely inaccurate expanded spending assessment that is assessed as necessary for the needs of this city by the department of the environment. Now clearly this is a process that is going to continue this year. We had originally intended to freeze our budget at precisely the level that it has been at the last two years for a variety of reasons we have decided that it is sensible to actually bring it down yet further. There are two reasons for this. Firstly the process of moving down towards our S S A needs to be facilitated because my own instinct is that the government, faced with all sorts of financial tribulations, is going to take a harder and harder nosed attitude towards local government expenditure, as it will unfortunately with an awful lot of the rest of what we have come to expect over the decades to be the responsibility of central government, clearly the current expenditure review is going to have some nasty shocks in it for consumers of account services, consumers of other assets of the welfare state but particularly I would suspect, the local government. Additionally however, we need to make it clear that when we have looked at the figures and I would pay some to the opposition for bringing er some matters to our attention, erm and looking at the way in which very, very careful on the part of this council has led to a better reserve position than we would previously have expected. There is a sense of which that good housekeeping with the inevitable consequences of government policy can be, can be in terms if you like, or benefits to the council tax payers, who have after all in a under the complete disaster of the poll tax which nobody but nobody in this chamber I suspect knew more unless there is at least one partisan tory who will try to save it, it was really a wonderful experiment and it's a shame it didn't continue. On that basis we have an amendment to the budget as presented to the finance panel and as the Mayor explained . If I can talk immediately to scope of that amendment before moving on to some points about the budget . With regard to the first lies my group has come to the conclusion that there is a way in which the employment development budget can be augmented to specifically reserve at least the part of the current posish provision provided by the cooperative development erm we stand by our opinion that there are ways in which that service can be more efficiently administered that this is a sensible way forward. With regard to the contingency contingency is something which has often been a matter of debate within this council. It has been a matter of debate because there are those in the council who feel that if you put in a contingency provision it will be spent whether it's needed or not. There are many of us who feel that it is sheer wilfulness if one assumes that there will be no contingency in the course of the year that needs to be budget . This year might represent a compromise with regard to the those two opposition positions which again I would suggest are something that perhaps owes more to than it does to actual political affiliation. The regard to the job evaluation budget suggests that our original figure of a hundred thousand pounds is not fully necessary and that can all be reduced to fifty percent, to fifty percent or the equivalent say to fifty thousand pounds and the same goes for the judgement with regard to how you are going to have figure with regard to jobs vacancies. That will bring the eventual budget down a fine tune particularly with regard to er recommendations of the housing committee with regard er to the erm which clearly there will be some people. What we have done is to suggest that we actually need a lower budget than we had originally assessed. This is in line with the obvious policy, not just of the ruling group, but I suspect of the council as a whole that we know that sooner or later courtesy of this government, whether we like it or not we are going to have to get down to our standard spending assessment. The policy of this council over the last couple of years has been to get down to that figure enforced upon us as gracefully as possible with the least damage to our services and the least damage to the morale of our staff and our staff are after all the most important asset that a local authority possesses and that is what we're trying to consider. Everybody will be aware of the fact that in the course of the last two budgetary years we have made savings in excess of what we had anticipated. Those savings have been achieved by very careful housekeeping indeed. By a rigid look at vacancies, by the constant search after efficiency, efficiency savings. By looking hard at any way in which we can raise extra income for this authority. A classic example of good housekeeping which has made Cambridge a authority in the region and beyond and one that even members of the conservative government have occasionally, through gritted teeth they're not doing a bad job, damn them and that means that the are going to think to have some of those, if you like, very good housekeeping back to the citizens who have been paying the bills over the years. For instance to this is an assumption that although we are going to have a shortfall on the collection fund, again because of good housekeeping we believe that this action is what people want by the charge payers of the city and again that in this financial year it can be taken out of the . This seems to me to be a highly , high responsible budget bringing us closer and closer to a position where we will eventually reach. We are spending now, if this budget is accepted, a mere eleven percent of the standard spending assessment levels which means that in time we are going to get down to where the government is going to demand that we . We may not want it but the government is going to demand it and we as custodians of the services on the part of the people of Cambridge, are going to have to do as sensibly and sensitively as possible. There are some more points I've got to make about the budget in general. The first thing is that I think people need to recognise that the investigation of savings generated a figure of one point four million pounds. That is an extraordinary amount of money to find in terms of savings. It's not a figure that represents gross inefficiencies, gross over expenditure. What it represents I would suggest, is the desperate attempt to trim off the margin to find every single last way in which we can follow the government diktat whilst preserving our full services. But I do think that we need to recognise this on council that there is a cost associated with that one point four million pounds worth of savings and those costs come in two different directions. One cost is that clearly some services are being cut in terms of how good they are. We need to recognise that some letters will take longer to answer that public loos will not be as fully attended as they have been in the past. That some community events will not take place. That some voluntary organisations will not get the grants that they previously expected. All of these trims at the margins which I would suggest, detract from the quality of life of people in this city, something that we regret, but something which can and has been enforced upon us. We're trying to the horrors of central government diktat are all closing upon this city. But there is a cost of that and it's a cost that people will recognise. They will recognise it too in terms of higher charges than perhaps ideally we would want to impose for certain services which the city operates, whether it be sports pitches or whether to be brutal, it's the cost of actually burying the dead. Perhaps those are things that in the best of all possible worlds we wouldn't want to but we are forced so to do. But there's another cost to the savings that have been exemplified and that we are going to be forced to take with regard to this budget and that is something that anybody who uses the city council services, and particularly I would suggest councillors, are going to notice and that is the stress that we are putting on the people that we employ. It is all very well to say to any people organisation you shall become more and more efficient. In the end there has to be a limit, there has to be a level beyond which you cannot go without people cracking under the strain, without people saying I'm now doing the job that was done by two people, two and half people a few years ago. It doesn't mean that you don't look for efficiencies but it does mean that we need to recognise that we are putting a burden on our staff which I think we will be callous and stupid to disregard. I that in terms of many of the so called efficiency measures that we could take, we are reaching the absolute limits in this authority. There are areas, one or two of which I will go on to elude to, which I still think are actually going to make for the greatest savings in the coming financial year and thereafter. But in terms of saying there are easy savings to be found in terms of greater efficiencies in this authority I warn you, we are reaching the level unless we actually want in putting a completely unacceptable level of stress on the people who we employ and who universally serve this city very finely and give such a very high level of service. I know that there are views among the opposition groups about what should be cut out of this budget. We have decided that the fundamental points as far as the is concerned is the presentation of services. Wherever we have looked for savings, we have looked to trimming away at the centre and preserving those services that are delivered to the citizens in a direct way. Some of them and we make no bones about this, are delivered undoubtedly to minorities, they're delivered to small groups of people in the city, to people who are in any care in the community need to be given special consideration. If we house them we need to look after all the people, we make no apologies for the fact that this is a budget slanted towards equal opportunities and to an anti-poverty strategy and that is something that we will fight to preserve and we would expect support from at least some quarters in order to achieve an egalitarian status in this city. The same is true of some of the bids, we've allowed more bids this year than perhaps it was the case in the past. The bids that we have wording of support. We want to do something for the voluntary sector. Fifty thousand pounds extra for the voluntary sector at a time when a recession, when so called but completely un care in the community is putting a tremendous burden of responsibility both on the voluntary sector and on we know what a good job the voluntary sector do in this city thousand pounds is a small proportion of the money that they are actually requesting from us. It's in a place in the direction of the work that they do, it is not enough, we would like to provide more. But ill betide anyone who says, says that that is money that's not going to be . Pollution, the environment, again that is something which is not just for concern, we know it's of global concern as well. We have some responsibilities in that direction. Yes we have to operate within our resources, but if we're looking to er how recycling that seems to us a bid which is worthy of backing regardless of political affiliation. If you listen to any national politician they pay to the importance of environmental concerns and to actually say that that's a bid that can't be approved. Putting more money into the taxi part scheme, a scheme that is anything but everybody in the surrounding authorities, how many of us have had letters from the residents of Gerton or Promberton or wherever else complaining that they want to be included in this scheme. Something that provides a life line, mobility for people who otherwise would find that they were being seriously disadvantaged, that their lives would not be as full as . Each and every one of the bids however they refer to particular minority groups, whether they refer to the group are I think, justifiable. They're justifiable because we're doing within very tight financial constraints. This is a very responsible budget indeed. It brings down our level of expenditure. It leaves no fortune with regard to what the department of the environment might throw at us next year unless they completely lose their marbles, which after all is always possible. Which I suspect the odd tory MP having a heart attack, falling under a bus, the loss of directions might actually mean that they might see a degree of sense in borough capping . It leaves few hostages to fortune with regard to the department of the environment. We after all, bring our expenditure down, we're down near two million pounds under new cap capping rules. That is not under any circumstances responsible judging. It is also the budget that has taken notice of what the opposition have actually said we listened to you we have not persevered with our original thinking, we've talked to the officers, we've listened to what you've said, we may not have done it with the greatest grace possible but . Comes very much as difficult to grace but erm and we have brought our expectations down. But the budget in general is one that we withstand. We think that it conserves services, that it has searched out the vast majority of efficiencies that we can find within this council and that it doesn't pass on to the poll tax, council tax payers the fruits, I mean it does pass on the poll tax or council tax payers the fruits of how we have achieved savings and efficiencies over the last couple of years. We've done well it's time that that was actually passed on . There are further areas which in time year will allow that trend to continue, I'm aware of the fact that there will probably be in the course of the evening that suggest that greater efficiencies can be found in a variety of areas whether it be in or wherever else. We have our own ideas about that. We have gone out with regard to our team through voluntary competitive tender. That is designed to save money for this authority. We are looking seriously at the costs of such in-house items as car leasing. We've continued to keep a very hard view of the corn exchange and a number of other bodies which we fund, but we're going to see what actually happens, we're not going to make blind predictions about savings without actually going into the facts. If we make further savings in the course of the next financial year the benefit will be felt by the citizens of Cambridge and it's no good promising them things which we can't deliver. This is a budget that promises what it will deliver. That bears the fruits of past, sound financial management, preserved services and looks for as many efficiencies as possible. Far be it for me to say that this is the sort of budget that conservatives ought to applaud because it is after all, a budget that is guided by a feeling that councils should provide services and they should orientate their services to the least communities, to be guided by equal opportunities and by egalitarians and that's what this group has always stood for, this is the budget that we present tonight and I would hope that it would get a far better and far larger measure of support than perhaps of course been the case in the past. Is there a second? Yes. Is there anybody else . Thank you Mr Mayor, erm well this may be a budget the conservative might applaud but I'm . Yes,one wonders how get actually. David Owen might be buying membership soon. But seriously I'm against this budget because of what is, what it doesn't contain rather than what it does contain. the policies that it represents, still represents even as amendment. Repeat this evening. That labour's budget doesn't do anything new to meet those challenges. Education cuts. Interesting the party supposedly in favour of education groans when education is mentioned. Interesting to to speculate and I'll do this a little later on, ask them why the labour party's so obsessed with opposing education . There's also pollution the environment,the council mentioned those, there's nothing new in this budget. Nothing new about the lack of public transport in Cambridge. And about the biggest problem today, that of unemployment what we have is nine thousand pounds put back into the the employment development fund. Still leaving . What we have is nine thousand pounds put back into the employment development fund still leaving a cut. This is no time to cut anything from the employment development fund, from the training budget, even sixteen thousand pounds. So the fails to meet all these challenges. Make no apologise ds ds to starting with education, the county council is cutting seven million pounds from education this year. A dozen or more teachers in city schools may lose their jobs, maybe more. More than half the city's schools are faced with real cuts in their budgets. County talks about putting a million pounds back in and it turns out that this million pound in fact is part of a two million pound cut that appears to have been made. It's all a mistake of calculation from when the government nationalised further education. The city could act, the city could do something about it but it won't. The ruling group, the labour party, refuses to do anything about this at all. I don't want to hear any more nonsense about doing the county council's job because the city already does lots of things for the county council concessionary fares for the elderly for example. On the city board last week we had yet another example rather a good project Trumpington disability project, very likely but it's social services budget. And a question you have to ask yourself is why the labour party is prepared to spend on all the aspects of county council responsibility except education. Why is this? Why does the labour party seem to education? The one thing it will not, it will not spend money on. Education is important to everyone, it's not a m a minority group, it's important to individuals for their own self fulfilment, it's important for society for our economic future and our future as a democracy. So why the opposition and after all this time, eighteen months of debate. And from the labour party, reason after reason, feeble reason after reason . After all this time reason and reason's been knocked down, one after the other and what did we get last time? We got votes against our proposals with no reasons given at all, you've now got down to the point of having no reasons at all for opposing what we want to do. So what is why is it that labour party oppose education spend? So I think we're getting rather strange signals out of tonight's budget, on the one hand we have councillor the John Smith clone, although at least put a bit of weight on. On the other hand We seem to have a labour party that treats education as some kind of middle class hobby that thinks of education spending as something spent only on the bourgeoisie, something to do with a university, something not really important for ordinary people. If that's not the reason, what is the reason? And one suspects it might be back in the days of the nineteen fifties, nineteen sixties when the labour party opposed anything at local level,of course, but at local level that might tend towards helping people to be upwardly mobile on the grounds that upwardly mobile people stop voting labour. I don't want to go to the story as to why the labour party opposed the er th the entry to the city of Marks and Spencer but it's an interest . They didn't want working people to have decent clothes . I really do hope the labour party is stuck in some kind of thirties plan I'm afraid I've got my doubts. Will you stop laughing. the circumstances I wonder how well this is to the current debate as opposed to amendments which I suspect will be moved later on. I'll give my reasons for voting against this budget. It's got no education spending. I I I think that councillor should be allowed to continue. because er he's just one person who remembers those years. Ooh. There are other grounds remaining for opposing this budget. It still hasn't tackled all the waste there is in the council, we'll get back to that when we amendment. It still hasn't done anything new, has no new ideas about traffic and environmental problems. And of course it's a budget which is on an attitude towards the Parkside Pool problem which we disagree with therefore in no way do we support it. But there are many reasons, as you will see when we put our amendment asking why are budget proposals are different from the ruling groups but the main reasons are simply the ruling group's refusal, for whatever reason, I just wanna hear the reasons. to do anything about the major problems facing the city. Councillor . Yes I would like also to speak against this amendment erm but for completely different reasons. I don't intend to give the council a to solving the world's problems and that's not the word to mind but problems. . Because I do recognise Mr Mayor er I have to say, that this amendment is a step in the right direction. But I believe that the councillor er is somewhat cynical in the what that he has put this forward. Tories producing rabbits out of hats is the big bad headline, wasn't it. You know we're the ones accused of doing these things at the last moment. We're the ones who you know, don't tell anybody what our strategy is going to be, we suddenly spring it on the members right at the end of the process at the council meeting. We're not running the council the labour group are running the council er but they on this occasion Mr Mayor, are the ones producing the rabbits out of the hats. And I'll congratulate the leader of the council on a wonderful conjuring act with this amendment. I asked at the meeting of the city board and I asked on more than one occasion, and didn't get a proper answer, what the labour group intended to do with the three point two million pounds that will build up in reserve say for the next three years. I made it clear that our policy was to use that money to reduce the level of the council tax over that period of time. I couldn't get any clear commitment er from er you Mr Mayor, or the leader of the council as to what would do with that three point two million pounds. I also pressed at the city board for something to be done about this problem of the er people disappearing off the poll tax register at an alarming rate I must add. And I was absolutely amazed and I think all of us on the opposition benches were absolutely amazed at the city board that you appeared to have no proposals whatsoever to do anything about that situation. I find found that absolutely incredible and I thought it was bizarre to say the least, the procedure we had to go through the other er evening erm with two hours of acrimonious debate er a break while you consulted er the officers before we got to some er sensible way forward which is now incorporated in this amendment er to spend a hundred thousand pounds on actually trying to trace . But spending that hundred thousand pounds as we were told at the time, would only part solve the problem. The potential deficit on the poll tax collection fund er because of these people not registering is well over million pounds and that by spending the hundred thousand proposed here, would actually bring it down to seven hundred and thirty five thousand pounds and that's where the conjuring trick is er this er amendment because of course, if you work out the increase in the balances that you are proposing to take in this amendment, it works out exactly to seven hundred and thirty five thousand pounds, well it does on my calculations Mr Mayor. Exactly seven hundred and thirty five thousand pounds. So you're doing exactly what we were telling you to do a few weeks ago, that you had to er take money out of reserves or you had to cut down on the level of services if you were to avoid putting that thirty four pounds on the council tax bills this year. And you very cleverly, very cleverly and I, this is where I congratulate you, built this in to your proposals tonight. There are some things in this that obviously we can support, the delete or reduction in the contingency pros p provision to a hundred thousand pounds, we're going to be moving later on to delete even that amount but it's surprising you were telling us you've been telling us for years you have to have two hundred thousand pounds in the contingency. All of a sudden in a matter of two weeks, you can take a hundred thousand pounds out of it. We welcome the reduction in the job evaluation budget to fifty thousand pounds. The officers told us er some time ago that that could be done quite easily. If the officers could tell us that why didn't they tell the controlling labour group, I'm sure they did and then the question is why didn't you listen to them. Why then did you put over a hundred thousand pounds in that budget in the first place? I welcome that particular proposal. You questioned Mr Mayor at the city board when I put forward the proposal to increase the er turnover figure from three percent to four percent. You said, explain that councillor Evans, tell us how you're going to do it. Well perhaps you or somebody on the other side might care to tell us how you're gonna take it from three to three and half, cos I'll quite happily tell you then how we'll take it from three and half to four percent, so we welcome that as a step in the right direction. Obviously as I say, we would support the additional bid of a hundred thousand for pursuing the poll tax er non-registers. And obviously we would want to take money out of reserves, our original amendment took one point three million pounds out of reserves and it's interesting to see now that you're suggesting almost that figure again and yet for years you've been telling us you can't take this money out of the reserves, er you know we had to keep it for a rainy day. Do we take it that the rainy day has finally arrived? I think it has. But this does not go far enough for us and er shortly we will be moving another amendment which will take the council's budget down to the standard spending assessment and I will speak to that er when I come to move that amendment. No the standard spe spending assessment. Could I, just before I sit down, say one thing er why I disagree er with councillor . I think the liberal democrats are gonna find themselves rather strangely isolated here this evening, proposing the highest budget. Ah well we will wait and see erm, they're trying to solve everybody's problems but ours, er with all this talk about spending money on education, sorting out the traffic problems erm, it's a pity they don't spend a bit more time in their budget calculations in dealing with the problems of this council and not those of the county council. So Mr Mayor, for completely different reasons than the council have er I will be urging my group to vote against this amendment and to support a subsequent amendment which will take the budget down even further. Thank you. Councillor wishes to speak. Thank you Mr Mayor I just wanted t to come in with two fairly quick points er as to why I will not be able to support this amendment, but the first is that the leader of the council has indicated that the efficiency savings erm has got as far as it can go and that, you know, we have been trimming at the margins and there is no more margin left and that leads you to believe that perhaps one should be looking at somewhat more er root and branch type of pruning in the spending that that the labour group want to actually erm deal with, er and the second point I would like to make, and er I thank councillor for giving us a a a a new word tonight obfuscation because that describes exactly what I think the labour group are trying to do by bringing this figure down it removes the embarrassment they would have from having to add on a substantial sum of money f due to the failure to collect the cou er the community charge in previous years and I think that they are trying by by this amendment with some very quick foot work to try and delude the people of this city. Mr Mayor, councillor says that the labour group is running the council, that's manifestly not the case. The conservative group is running the council. And the conservative group is running the council in the sense that labour has scrambled, obviously over the last few days, to reduce its tax level to something closer to the tories and I'm going to stand with my fellow liberal democrats tonight and vote for a higher figure because, not only because I think that there's sort of things we want to do in our budget, are b are b are better and and would be better done than not done, but because I think there's a fundamental political ethical issue here and it's one which has been confronting this country for a great many years and which is going to be crucial in the next election. The question is, do the people of Britain believe in paying higher taxes for good services delivered by central and local government? I thought that progressives, political progressives in this country were prepared to stand by public services and believe in them sufficiently to say this will cost you and we are prepared to to put the bill to you because we believe you will pay the bill. What we have tonight is a labour group that says they no longer believe in that philosophy. What they believe in is that everybody out there is out to grab as much as they can for their own private interest and they're prepared to meet them halfway on that. There's no question who's running the council here, it's this lot. Reference to I think that last comment is of course a very interesting one . I thought the liberal democrats failed abysmally at that the last election. Can you say Mr Ashdown may have all the qualities of leadership except . And I suspect that the next election that will still prevail. But clearly the liberal democrats have not learnt the lesson of spending what you have and running prudent budgets. Even president Clinton is learning that, even as a democrat he had a reputation of fiscal responsibility as a government, but I must admit I welcomed his present er proposals in that regard. But that doesn't follow for the liberal democrats in this particular council. I don't think their proposals in that regard will be worthy of support. Er, but councillor other remark about the labour party moving towards the conservatives is of course a very fair one, but then surely nothing surprises us at the moment about the labour party. At long last they've come out in favour of wealth, isn't that extraordinary, reported in today's paper. They're also, Mr Mayor, interestingly coming out in favour of the individual but I must admit I applaud that and at long last in some, admittedly very modest way, er they are moving, I won't say to fiscal responsibility, but at least they're learning the lessons of the recklessness of the past of their policies. But what we have to bear in mind of course er the f financial propriety of this council would in a sense have been very easy over the years if the labour party previously had trimmed its budget according to what we could all afford. That they did not do and now the leader of the council said well they're trying to get down to the standard spending assessment at last, he could have done that a long time ago, you have had nothing but excess expenditure proposals on behalf of this city for many, many years. If we are above government guidelines it is the labour party's fault and if indeed we are penalised in the future it is the labour party's fault, none other and to the extent that you run the risk now by having this excess eleven percent budget over the er standing expenditure assessment er will once again unfortunately find you guilty in that regard. What I did find very distressing in his remarks, er were basically in respect of some of the savings . Again I must say it seems extraordinary doesn't it that er he pontificates the savings when really one is entitled to ask the question well why weren't they made before? I really can't think that you can claim those as savings. They're a pulling back of your excess expenditure. They are if you like a correctness of mismanagement. It can't be anything else, formal savings is not on and I think when you small items I was rather distressed by some of them. I think we're going to go as a council in the direction of not answering letters on time. In business that cost is one of the first items you do in efficiency terms. If you delay the answering of letters, of course that creates more letters chasing up the first ones and that is again where you are getting your priorities wrong, admittedly on a very small items. For the leader of the council to use the excuse in terms of savings about the cost of the burning of the dead. I think most of us have due respect and regard for proper procedure in that regard. One of the most emotional times for anyone. For you to downgrade that and say well I'm sorry now we're doing all this, we can't guarantee that, it's disgraceful, absolutely disgraceful. What I actually said was that the price that we would have to charge for burying the dead had to go up in order to ensure that in of the circumstances our standards could remain impeccable. That I regard as unfortunate . I'm very glad you clarified that Mr because certainly I not as I heard it er and I'm very pleased that was clarified and I think others would have felt likewise. Let me come on, let me come on then to a more disgraceful excuse er that er the leader of the council talked about. He talked about the stress on the people we employ. Most of us who've been on this council some years will have seen the stress that the labour party brought on a number of senior officers who felt obliged to leave in what I would call distressing circumstances. That was the pressure of the labour party policy and if there is any stress on staff in this council then it is at your responsibility. You are running this council and it up to you to ensure that you do not create employ because if that is what you're admitting to you're Councillor you've had over your time Thank you very much well I've been very pleased to make those points relating to the leader of the council. Since there are no further hands rushing up into the air I'll say a few words myself. Asking I think the proposals the labour group's . It's important that we look at the pattern of our spending as a local authority over the past five or six years. But that in some of the comments that have gone before. In those days the government assessed local authority needs according to a very in the grant related expenditure assessment, G R E A, greas and this is much more complex and sensitive measure of how much it costs to run a city and in those days what the government thought we should be spending and what we thought we should be spending seemed in fact to be very close indeed. In nineteen eighty seven, eighty eight, we spent ninety nine point eight eight percent of what the government thought . In nineteen eighty eight and eighty nine we spent ninety eight point two nine percent and in eighty nine ninety, ninety seven point one four percent of what the government thought we need we actually underspent in their terms. This was still a labour council, they were still a conservative government but there was a wonderful consensus about the spending needs of local authorities and how local authorities should be funded. That was what one might call a pre-poll tax consensus. In nineteen ninety one the S S A was introduced as the measure for assessing local authority needs and in that year our spending, instead of being one or two percent below what the government thought, it shot up to forty nine point nine five percent above the S S A figures. What had happened? Had labour suddenly become a local authority, or did the S S A simply fail as an accurate way of assessing our spending needs? The answer I think, lies in the fact that the government next year gave this authority an increase in its S S A of some thirty two point one percent, one of the largest increases in the country. Not quite enough perhaps but still enough to be an admission that they got it seriously wrong in the year before. Since that point though what has been the pattern of our budgets? Have we kicked against the and ignored the determination of central government to bolster their own problems with the P S B I by reducing local authority spending? No, from that figure of forty nine point nine five percent above S S A in nineteen ninety one we proposed a budge that had brought reductions year on year in that divergence of view. Each and every year there have been reductions. In nineteen ninety one the gap narrowed to thirty one percent from almost fifty nine. In ninety two, three it narrowed further to twenty two percent and this year we're proposing a budget that is only ten point eight percent adverse to the government's figures. We don't believe that the government is correct in their view of what the city needs. But we've not wilfully put at risk services or jobs by risking capping by going in the opposite direction. Equally we've tried not to traumatise the public or our staff by cutting back to the governments preferred level all at once. Our view is that the people of this city value the services the council provides and don't want them withdrawn. Ours has been a process of careful pruning year on year. It's not been without pain and I pay tribute to our staff's willingness to embrace the changes that we've had to make. In particular I think it should be recognised that the role of the unions, NALGO and G M D in helping that process of change has been quite fundamental and for that reason, because we appreciate and value the essential way in which the unions have contributed to the process of changing the organisation I consider that the they much trailed proposals from the opposition groups to cut, or in the other case, to reduce the NALGO office are quite misguided . I want to return however to the question of the pattern of taxation in the authority under labour control. It's of course only to be expected that people should moan about the tax they've got to pay and people always complain that it seems to go up every year. Well let me say quite clearly now, that is not true. Both as a percentage of budget and in real terms accounting for inflation, people are being asked to pay less today than they were in nineteen eighty eight. In eighty eight, eighty nine the rates, business and domestic, amounted to eighty one point seven percent of all the council's spending. The government contributed just eighteen point two percent so the bulk of our expenditure was born by local people directly. Today we're asking local people to pay only fifty seven percent instead of eight two. But politicians always speak in terms of percentages and real terms so let's look at the total tax which was demanded from people in the city in the past few years. In nineteen ninety, ninety one we asked for six point four seven four million in poll tax. In ninety one ninety two, five point four. In ninety two, three by point six seven and in the budget we propose tonight we've asked for four point five five million. No no allowing for inflations, no underlying trends under the labour proposals people in Cambridge will be paying less hard cash now than they did eight years ago. The council is spending prudently and efficiently and it's spending as little hard cash as is compatible with meeting the essential needs of the people who live in the city. I'm told I've got to wind up I have the discretion to give myself up. But you'll be relieved to know I'm not going . In that case Councillor has . Can we move to the vote then please on the amendment before us I proposed to take it. As point of order I believe as this is a proposal of an amendment of the city board city board is the city board chair's right of reply. Do you wish to exercise your right to reply? Very, very briefly indeed erm I would stand by what I said in my overall speech. I do think that the Erm, it doesn't matter what I propose, whether it actually makes out things that they've been talking about or whether it's completely found something to criticise about it. That's politics. What we've actually got here is a judicious budget proposal which yes, has changed over the last fortnight, I make no apologies for that. It also has to hinder to recognition of what the needs of the people of the city are and I actually cast out, wipe out services and the needs of central administration which is essential to any council and I would hope that not only my own back this amendment. Thank you. Can I ask us to to move the amendment erm in one A those in favour of that part of the amendment please show one A. What are we voting on? from the housing committee and nine thousand pounds from the environment committee were the following additional savings. Roman numeral one, those in favour please show. Those against please show. Roman numeral two please show in favour Thirty two. And those against roman numeral three, those in favour please and those against right. In B add at the end roman numeral one, those in favour please show . Thirty one Mr Mayor. And those against roman numeral two those in favour and those against roman numeral three those in favour and those against amendment D to read one two to eight O O nine please in that budget to thirty six three eight nine fifty, those in favour. Thirty two. And those against. In three alter the amounts calculated to read as follows, I hope that we can take that block in three as one since it all follows from what's gone before. Yes we have erm those in favour thank you, and those against okay thank you. Are there further amendments? Thank you councillor . Okay councillor can you proceed? Does everyone have a copy of this one good er Mr Mayor erm all budgets are a balance between er spending on database services and spending on capital projects and on keeping taxes down. All three elements have to come in to any budget decision and nobody can ignore all three, indeed if you look around three groups of the council you'll see that all the budget proposed tonight will take into account all three areas. Conservative budget for example even though its main press is always on keeping the tax level down er will often include capital projects. For example they support the market square project and at the end of the day even with the total budget down to S S A the vast bulk of the money being spent by conservative budget's been spent on people salaries but it's still being spent on services and the labour party this year has lost the three elements keeping the tax down and that's quite a good thing to see. Though I should say that what councillor said that my group were prepared to set a higher tax level if that were necessary. That's what we said at the general election. By my judgement as the amendment reflects is that it isn't necessary but if it were I would have no hesitation s whatsoever in increasing the level of taxation to pay for what needs to be paid for. It needs to be understood that what divides the parties isn't so much that one party believes in capital projects, on party in revenue spending and one party in keeping the taxation levels down. What divides them is solely of judgements on the bounds between those three elements. I should say that for us revenue services, ordinary database services do come first keeping the tax level does come second and the prestige projects, even rather good ones like the market square project definitely come third. It's not to say that we are against capital projects, we are not. We have included in our proposal this year twenty thousand revenue effects of a hundred thousand pounds capital bid on traffic calming and other similar measures, something which is very popular around the city, as long as you ask people what they want first and which in previous years we put forward as a revenue bid. We decided the best way to deal with that question is through a capital bid and that's what we've done. And also of course there is the question of Parkside Pool although observant members of the council will notice that Parkside Pool isn't mentioned in our amendment. That is because, fortunately I suppose,our Parkside modernisation scheme we are reliable informed by officers, would have no revenue effects in ninety three, ninety four. It would have revenue effect of course in ninety four, ninety five and our future budget will have to reflect that. But in this year the first year of the project, because it will be towards the end of the year anyway it has no revenue, net revenue effect. the basic day to day problems that we want to concentrate on and on the challenges it faces. Education fund is in there we've not raised the price but that is our top priority and we believe it's societies top priority also in our amendment is our idea for extending concessionary bus fares for journeys within the city to those of school age who do not quality for the statutory schemes run by the county. The idea there is to try to get some reduction, some reduction in the level of traffic at peak hours and to help public transport. And of course in a scheme like that many details have to be worked out especially in negotiations with the bus company for the figure we have put in is I think a realistic figure for the first year of the scheme. We also want to bring about improvements in some well appreciated services. Services the council provides which we think could benefit from extra resources. The example of this of course is the night time call out service, which all parties support, which comes every year as a problem of funding, do we want a full week service? And we do, the question is can we afford it and we think we can. These services of course have to be paid for and we do aim to keep the level of taxation as low as possible but of course we can't aim to bring it down as far as conservatives would want because we need, we in the city need, to spend money on things like the education fund without which it becomes a city less worth living in. But we are looking f for savings to make greater efficiencies and we think we've found some. I'm gonna start with the support for trade unions small item twenty six thousand pounds to the NALGO project, there's a G M B budget but that's all nearly all paid for out of direct services we don't want to touch that. This county pays for a full time union official this is extravagant, one full timer for five hundred members, that is way over the top let me tell you. I'll give you one example the union of communication workers for the post office has one full time worker, one full time officer for two to three thousand. So we propose to cut that support by half in this year and to keep it under review for future years as well. Because we want to see a review of the whole system of union representation within the council to see whether it's an appropriate sort of representation for an organisation of this size. We are not against unions, we are for unions, unions can be very useful not only for their members but also for the management, we recognise that. The amount of money put in by the public. I would say to you you've already spent seven minutes of your time erm now allow you seven minutes in initially also and so Yes I think that probably this had been er very wise in this er in so I'm not saying that they've helped us or anything but they've kept the middle of the line and erm In the beginning when things were beginning to whatsit er the inspector sent two policemen down here and asked me would I ask the lads not to do any damage to property and all this, and that and said, Right there's a lodge tonight and I shall ask them I shall tell them to do that. And er why he sent for me because I'm not a shop steward or anything. But as I said before probably it's the white hair that er that does it . So what they had done it had a big slab there and it had got on it er The World's Largest Slate Mine, and perhaps you've seen it yourself they've rubbed the T off and they put V and somebody's done a very good job of it er in the same paint and everything. So tourists have been stopping even to take photo of that the largest slave in the world. I mean that's not the right description of it but er anyway. Now Will brought down an old van er which was scrap it was quite a good body I mean and he painted on it, We're still open, er something like, Despite Transport and General Workers' Union picketing we are fully open, and he plonked this van with no wheels on it just the body right th in the entrance of th on his own ground naturally er right in front of the pickets which was like you know tantalizing. Naturally he he wanted to keep his place open and when he got up the next morning somebody had painted the side of the van completely over. So and smashed all the windows and everything in it erm so what's that and as I say it was only a scrap van er and now he'd bought the little chapel on the corner. Er there were lots of er little panes broken before but er whether our lads were having a bit of a pot shot. I mean when you're on picket line it's very depressing it's very heart breaking unless you get some comedian or something you know it gets er y you don't know what to do with yourself and perhaps they'd been taking pots of this paint I'm not saying. So I asked them in the lodge like don't do any damage and Tom was in e he gave them a good lecture so and the lads in the lodge said, Well look you tell them as well not to do this attitude and perhaps you've seen it on these flumes when they saw a crowd that was there they were changing gear with the Land Rover and through you know like anybody in the way you'd be underneath. So I said fair enough. Well the next morning I was up at the top gate on picket and erm came with his van and he he spelted up through and the lads jumped one side well, I'm nearly sixty five I didn't jump so quickly. And I don't I don't think I tried jumping. And I think he meant, and I say this quite fair now, I think he meant to come straight up to me and brake suddenly to frighten me. But he missed his trick and he came a little bit too far and he knocked me over and I was underneath the front of the van. Well naturally I was I was raving wild when I got up and that's well the lads I thought they were going to turn the van over tell you the truth. And course he'd frightened himself and er I counted up to about eight, nine and ten I said to him, Look when you go inside that bloody gate now I said go straight into the office sit down and think for a minute where the hell are we all going to in this carry on? And I don't where I got I gave him quite a good sermon which I thought was y know quite erm to try and help the situation and he said I'd give them er my conditions. I said, while you adopt them that you'd give them your conditions we're getting nowhere. And I said you sit quietly and think and we shall do the same. And erm he was still at them and then that he was in the right. And said why'll well why'd you'd b dogmatic about it, I said we can't never be solve it. Anyway in the end he went in and erm the next thing the Inspector came up and er he called me and the Union chap into his car and er he said, We got a mark I said yeah well I had a little scar across me knee. So he said, Erm do you want to press charges? I I's thinking well this long would make the blinking situation worse and we're trying to resolve it. I said, No I don't. And he only had to wait a couple of erm points left on his licence so if I'd taken the dangerous thriving or something he could have lost his licence but erm that's besides the point. At the moment I thought, no the best thing was to forget it and that's what we did. And I'm not sorry that I did that because erm I wouldn't like I wouldn't have like to think that er anything I'd done had escalated the situation you know. And erm then the Inspector then found out if this scum works is going to carry on charging through these men. And as I say we did the mass picket down in Inspector was coming straight up t an the Sergeant to y you know what's like to leading er people and he said, Now what's the what you going to do what's what you want this morning? And we used to say, Well we want to stop the Land Rover. Right there'll be no punch-ups no nothing just one person to speak er to the driver or whoever he wants to speak to. Yes right. Well in that case and they'd been stopping them for us you see and er excuse me stopping them for us and whoever decided to speak to them has had his few words and that's it carry on. Well the other morning we were there and everything was quite in order what the police were afraid that somebody was going to get hurt. And when we were getting people from outside coming there and some of them quite militant they were going to sit and lay across the road. Naturally police didn't want that. So we thought, No if we can stop them to speak to them cos at the end of the day we can't actually stop them going up, we can give them as much harassment as we can yes er and keep within the law. Well as I say, the police stopped them the other morning and one of the lads had a chat with the driver and all this and he carried on. Well after they went round the corner one of these erm well stupid young lads in the back er lifted his two fingers on the pickets. But you see the Sergeant saw him. And the first thing he said, oh who's that bloke? And he got his name and he was up in the quarry during the morning and he's giving him his final warning that if he does that again he'll book him. Because he's really agitating the situation. And the same person, this young lad, I know he young stupid but erm I mean er I've had many a black eye for er speaking instead of listening but er h perhaps he'll be learnt the same way. Erm he goes round the pubs and he agitates on these lads. The lads that are on strike well I mean you'd think it'd be vice versa him being like a blackleg er that's er they'd be agitating but he's vice versa. I don't know if he's looking for trouble and of course that er would undermine er what public er relations and everything and we don't want that. But erm unless he alters his way you know I can see it coming off. But erm I think the police realize as well that he is a bit of an agitator and he's not to strike that's wrong. Yeah. Has there been any sort conflict open open to in the in the town at all? I think there've been one or two not er brush ups you know in the pubs once er or twice, they er they won't drink with them and that and er some of the lads some of the lads that have gone back have really realized the situation they've put themselves in you know, and they sorry and now they're on they don't know which way to turn. I mean I feel sorry for them erm they've put themselves in a position branded forever more or less. One lad went back because his father went back. They did work in er two worked in two different quarries but within a week or a fortnight that young lad approached one of our members and said he's sorry that he'd ever gone back and I said to him well come back and join us and forget it all. And he's back in the lodge he's on less money but but he's much happier so. He's he's out? He's he's out yes and there are two or three in which have erm you know they're sorry that they've gone back and er we feel sorry sort of for them that they've dropped into and a lot of our young lads have got mortgages and all that but there are some gone back er they need not people erm they'd finished rearing their families and everything. And erm if they could have given us a proper explanation why they'd gone back and prove us wrong them fair enough. But I think they'd just gone back for the money creed and once you get that well erm they don't realize that they could be falling into the trap unless we blokes stand firm now to maintain this standard of living. Well their standard of living will come come down. Right they're getting everything they want at the moment because erm er ease the situation. But I mean once this strike is over, unless we come to proper agreement erm they know then that then it will be too late then cos there's somebody saying then they came for the Jews first was it? I wasn't a Jew so I didn't bother. And then they came for the Communists, I wasn't a Communist so I didn't bother. And if I remember they came then they came for the Trade Unionist. I wasn't a Trade Unionist so I didn't bother. Then they came for me and then there was nobody to bother and that was the end of it. And it works in this situation the same. And erm you know er sometimes I'm sorry that it's come to this because like this family er they made a bomb out of it we're not saying that we're not denying them that at all. We've had a good living out of it but if that same system has brought them on their feet, you know and built them nice homes er right they've delved into Company's House now, all the dirty water not dirty water all the whatsit has come up how much they've drawn from these quarries. I mean used to say quite often erm er I'd flat I'd erm show my pay packet against your's any day if we had a good week. We were much better off than him. Well yes because he had a Mercedes Benz which er with cherish number plates which the company buys him. The company runs for him. You know it's come out of the tax situation he's built himself a er massive big house or put an extension on it. The extension is bigger than the original house. We're not saying that that er has been done er through all the cheap channels I don't blame him probably do the same. But he wasn't saying that he was getting eighteen thousand a year from Ffestiniog slate alone as a director's bonus and he's a director of the other quarries as well. So how much is he getting? Er not trying to kid us that er he's worse off than us. Well never can he and er the other partners with er the plant hire that's been going for donkey's ages and never shows a profit. But I mean erm er figures can lie and liars can figure and he comes back well now when you go into Company's House and get all these things, how much they putting aside of the money which should erm like er so that they can get a good pension, well that money it doesn't come actual from their pocket, it comes from the company's funds which er really would have gone to the tax man. So er you know they're making their bed er nice and feathery and yet they denying it us and then that's where the erm the sore point comes in. You mentioned earlier on about your attitude towards the erm minerals and mining Yeah. is it I mean has your attitude you know th th that because it's under your feet is to use your expression Yeah that that it it is in fact something that ought to be shared more and people ought to benefit more from what's here? Oh yes definitely. Yes erm excuse me. Er reading old books there the they talk about the and er around and the beds and all that you know and the jollity people they're well known about it . My wife and my daughters are all erm great C N D and nuclear er whatsit people, so now when these people wanted to drill in way, drill for er geological mineral er Estuary cos that's a different story the Estuary. Er they were a bit erm er all the C N D group, I'm saying this now with no disrespect or anything. They were erm a bit reluctant and were going to fight against it cos they thought they were going to look for er places to bury nuclear waste and it was shelved but I can't prove them right and I can't prove them wrong. But definitely they should er explore this County and not erm wanted to come into I think it was into the Estuary to drill for gold and minerals an all that, and the planning of the National Park said, No, and the blinking hole is only about four inches wide. What I think should be done at that time was that the Government should be fifty percent shares in it so that anything that's er sample that's brought up they should know what it is. Because in one county there was erm I'm not sure it was Ireland was a big erm hired firm like that came, they explored round they paid so many hundred to each farmer for exploring the land and he said, Oh no we've found nothing. A few hundred quid was smashing. As the years went by these farms were bought up. They didn't know by people were paying good money for them as er the farmers were moving out and it was er a good copper bed. But you see they didn't know the truth of the exploration, but if the Government was fifty fifty in it they'd be entitled to know the exact amount and quantity and what was underneath your feet. And I still maintain er of course they use the old argument that er tapes and all this and erm they er scar the countryside. Well to me when I come home of the Crimean I look at these massive tips you know in Blaenau on your left and the old on the right and that, erm if the old man that first rucked his pick and shovel or whatever trussel and or whatever they started would have known what he was starting then, it was like the Klondike of Wales. I mean I I'd love to see the the whole history and that's why I'm glad that erm you people are taking an interest now in not helping us but some day somebody saying who's that crank who's been talking on there . But erm no I think we should take full advantage of it we we're sitting on erm you know good minerals because as the minerals of the world getting erm shorter in 'sit erm in Africa they're getting all the copper its getting, well now they're shifting their interest slowly into Anglesey. As the minerals are getting er er slightly scarer scarcer well the percentage value of erm is it's wors working now. Can't see why we shouldn't er take advantage of it. But I mean you don't want to er start working in the mines for peanuts or anything do you, you want it to be a good job such as everybody else. Erm throughout this you know since we've since we've been talking you you very clearly have given me erm picture of the people who own the quarries and own the and have the erm of the directories. Mm. They are very much local people Ah yes. and erm members of local families. Yes. I remember Glyn and the kids were very young I think some of the were born in Blaenau erm and they were dismantling an old quarry at there his brother W R from Harlech had bought it usa like a machinery merchant and Glyn then borrowed a lot of tools off me for dismantling it then we started we we'd done a lot off and on together we'd been in er I enjoyed working with him, he was the type of man very hard worker himself but he wanted his pound of flesh. Er you know while you're working er there was no you had to stop him sometimes because he'd kill himself ha ha that's it. Yes he's built a business up and I'm not denying him that er or anything at all, But somehow now er I don't know whether the wheel is turning too fast for him to co keep up with it or whether it's erm oh never mind the erm the industry of the locality, providing the money stakes a I know every business has got to pay for itself and that we we're not, If this quarry was on the down grade and er er somebody had come to us said, look unless you take a drop in your wages er we can't survive that would be a different issue altogether. But it's not, it's flourishing and there's plenty demand can't get enough slates and er yes they say they've got er terrific overheads this and that, er well erm they can put them figures there they change the tune changes every day. They haven't got one and I'll s er say this as I've said everything on the wireless or anything, whatever I've said I'll say to their face, and I can slot the num perhaps they can't prove everything but you know it's there. They can put figures down er you know writing things off erm whatsit twenty percent per year for a machine right in five years' time that machine is scrap. But it's still worth thousands of quid so to them that is there're thousands erm er there's quite a lot of things they built up. And whether the wheel is turning too fast for them to cope with it somewhere along the line they've lost control any and there's still I'm told young many a time a good shop steward and a good management should be a good team together, but erm unless they can work in harmony you know it's no good. You seem erm a bit puzzled as to the silence of the big group. Yes erm when I was talking when they erm they wen they went all silent erm there was not talk about Ffestiniog slate. Whether they're moving the money from Ffestiniog slate into something else like nobody can prove it but that's my estimation. They getting er they training Ffestiniog slate now. Mean I'm putting I'm er if I was in their shoes that's exactly and I think I'm not far from wrong. Training Ffestiniog slate men one of these days they say there is no more Ffestiniog slate and that's it its gone bankrupt and er But I mean that can be easily arranged sort of thing. Erm right er Tom was going on his holidays our Union bloke about a fortnight nor three weeks something like that after the strike situation. Oh they wanted Tom then cos er the deputy I think it was old was it or something like that oh they didn't want to talk to him oh they wanted to talk to Tom and all this and Tom wasn't available. But as soon as Tom came back they didn't want to you know. So they'd been playing cat and mouse game and er it hasn't paid off you know. As they say erm whether they were thinking, Well we will starve them on the gate out and they'll have to come back, that's another situation but erm I never thought we'd have so much support from people and we can still erm I mean I'd rather be back at work but erm that is the situation. I mean said the other day, Why don't you pack up this stupid idea of picketing. I said, Why so that you can just carry on normally? No he said, We have given you my I said yes see we haven't if you adopt that attitude we getting nowhere. I said, I don't want to hassle you but I'm going to give you as much as I can. And I said, You flat out there avoiding it so he said erm you've accuse us of erm taking slates out at night. I said, Yes I stop me and we stopped the waggon half past two in the morning on top of the a load going to erm Holland or somewhere. Oh he said, We've always sent them out at night. I said, Oh no you haven't. I said that is a he didn't deny it er and he said that driver won't come back again because he was hoodwinked into coming up. It was the same waggon yes but it was different driver and er not sure whether they taken the slates themselves there now. So really whatever little slates he's doing it's er costing him hard labour and er just because we can't er resolve the situation. And erm I say he wasn't er he wouldn't go to ACAS, Will and our Glyn from erm they went to ACAS, and they said oh everything's fine in our quarry but they were side stepping the main issue that we'd been sacked and there's the boys are out and majority of . There are those that have gone back and erm er it was all right them shutting their eyes to what the the main the crux of the matter and saying, No no everything's fine in the garden that's just er trying to kid us but er I don't think it will work. Mind you erm there's one or two of the lads that are driving the waggons there. Well there's one lad he driving the waggon er he works for another branch of them it just the haulage whatsit. Well he's like the pig in the middle again, er they've told him well unless you drive the waggon backwards and forwards through the gates, well you're no good to us sort of down the road. Well if he came out on strike with us erm and we won if we won everything we g he'd gain nothing in the end cos he's in another section. So I mean people can't say that we're just like er blind bats batting wheth we'll you'll lose the situation these lads are in. Er we'd like to see them out with us to give the company as much harassment. Erm right there's one of the partners there er he's a bit er I don't know what he's doing he's doing somersaults I think backwards to help the situation but it doesn't. Well there's another lad he's been ill in health he's worked more now than he ever has cos he used to work a few days and lose a few days and he wasn't. Well perhaps they've given him er a green carrot. You know you can't blame them I know it's going against our policies and everything but we erm we're not blind to the situation. Er we are a bit er vexed at the management er they are sitting down to slits er splay s tt split slates. Erm he's had three crates the other day back cash rejects shows you that poor slates are going out. Well they maintain oh no anybody can sli split them. N yes anybody but then there is er a quality and a grade and everything to them. Because they are one of the worst ones if they bought er a Land Rover or any any British make, Oh oh look at the shoddy British, they're crying they're up in arms and they're doing exactly the same thing now. Right they've er they've been preaching against Spanish slates. Well I've seen Spanish slates in the quarry. So when I tackled Mr about it he said, Oh we must maintain our customers. So really they're not er playing the game. And I mean I'm not saying this now to advertise our cause or anything but I think it should be noted down. Right all the machines they've got erm are either German or Italian, say we got dump trucks erm we dump trucks there they know they're over five years old and they're still working. Er they say they're not worked hard well I think they have they've moved er moved a few thousand tons from there and erm. Of course er they have about erm well I'm not sure, about twenty eight or thirty thousand gallons of diesel stocked up there, and of course in them buying it in bulk like that they get it at a cheaper rate. They would fill the tanker from there and we go round the quarry filling the front machines, but erm they say at five or six thousand gallons has been emptied out of that er dump. As they say it would have been all over the village the smell and everything it is wrong. Well I have made a statement to the police and have put it in the police station in a sealed envelope. I was about the last one with a tanker er before er strike I mean they've been there afterwards but er and er a certain tank was empty. Well I marked that certain tank and I put it in in a sealed envelope to the police station and I said I don't know which tank they said whoever's emptied it has done, but I said, If it happens to be that tank then they are lying. If it's another tank I can't prove otherwise but I know one tank er the fourth tank you can't empty it, it's got be syphoned out it comes from the top and er if you went there and just opened the valve you can get a an ounce of diesel out of it. So really you know it leaves them and erm they've got to prove it erm. I'm not out to if they're going to claim on this diesel then that's up to them but I'm not going to have our lads or anybody else blamed for something which definitely does not exist and I shall tell as soon as I erm I meet him to have a chat with him again that he's going along the wrong lines. And I think er well I mean they haven't said any I think the police had a little bit erm suspicious about the story. You again you mentioned earlier on about erm members of your lodge members of going out erm and talking Yes. to other groups. Erm how did that h that may be quite a sophisticated thing to t t t to do in a way isn't it? Yes erm how can I say, we were invited Manchester University er to speak at dinner time, four of us went up and I was nominated as the speaker. I made a bit of a speech and all that and er like a clever dick I went without me glasses . So I had to make the speech best as I could and it went down all right I think. Erm then we had to call on the way back in Deeside er in Mold and there was a miner's support group there. We called and saw them and we had quite a nice reception. There was only about oh about two or three dozen there. And er and because we call him he spoke there and he spoke very well because and erm that's it. People came to us after the meeting, we met this lady and er she was really interested in our cause. She's erm she's a waitress in Chester so it can shows you how much cross section we've got and erm she said her and her boyfriend was coming up to Blaenau to be on the picket line and so on and we were quite friendly with her. Then she said, I've arranged now if you would like to go down and speak in er a meeting in Oxford. We said, Fair enough. Er two of us went down to Oxford we pick her and her boyfriend up in Shrewsbury and we went all down together and erm excuse me. We went down there they'd arranged for us er place to sleep and everything, and we went to this meeting it was quite a big hall I think they were all like Trade Union delegates and that. And erm we spoke to the Chairman during the afternoon in his house and was talking to him and spoke to him about erm an accident he'd had in the quarry. Anyway erm the chap the first speaker was from Silent Night Bedding and they're in dispute for a long time. He spoke and he spoke quite well and that's it. Then the next one spoke was er one of the Yorkshire miners, one of these er that hasn't got a job to back to. He spoke quite well. And then it came turn and er was er speaking quite well when this girl behind us this wee well along side us was thumbs up on him all the time you know he was doing well and that. And erm and he did this sermon so the next bloke he came from Kent somewhere er he was a miner or a miner's delegate and he could really speak you know, arms waving and all that and he was a real preacher. But the thing was nobody was impressed with him he was too much of er he was too good a speaker you know. You have a feeling er let's get it over with with him. So anyway, he erm had his say quite a long story and er the Chairman turned round all of a sudden and he s he couldn't say the Chairman er said call him cos that's what we call him and he said er he said erm would you like to come back to the rostrum again and he said erm you were explaining to me about an accident you had in the quarry in quarry, erm some years back and he said, I'd like you to explain to these people. So said to me yes carry on you're doing fine you know and he went up and er well he didn't know how to start the poor fellow doing smashing and he said, Well erm imagine this hall, he said, this hall we're in now as a big cavern underground. And he said he was working with an old fellow which is getting on in age and he was quite absent minded and he said, I was about thirty feet from the ground on a ledge er filling er s a hole ready for shot for blasting and the old fellow was about twenty feet higher than him and then he was ss er whatsit another hole and then a at the top of the chamber there's a little hole, he said, like a roof we call it which is a little passage that goes up into the next floor and then we used that as an escape route he didn't have to go far. Well then er quite, so he said erm it was all quiet and I looked up into the darkness and I said that the old fellow had gone and he litten his fuse and there was me there I could see the sparks in the darkness and I was way twenty feet below him and he must have whatsit. So I said I had to make a quick decision either I was going to go up me chain past his whatsit and into the roof, or else go thirty feet down and run right across the chamber into whichever er level they could go to. And I scrambled out of me chain and as I was doing that's the last he remembers. Either a spark had come down from the old fellow's hole up there or him with hobnail boots had trod on er black powder and set it off and his hole went out underneath his feet. It was only a small one he said. And the next thing he know he remembers he's hanging upside down with a half feet around his the chain had slipped 't was round his ankle and he was hanging upside down in the dark twenty feet from the ground. And of course the old fellow's holes went out but they went right over him nev never a scratch on him. And er he was there er two blokes had to get come get chains and get him out of it and all that and here wasn't a scratch on him but erm he was off for about five or six months you know he had ee ee this brain tests and everything, the shock had er he was quite bad for some time. Well, the people were so impressed they, you could have heard a pin drop in that hall, and he really in our Welsh way he put it over proper you know and erm the Chairman made a quite a nice remark in the end he said, Now he said we must remember these two fellows here, I said, They are Welsh and they speak Welsh as their first language they don't speak it for fancy they use it every day and he said I think they've done exceedingly well er to come down here and give us the Because what happen I was sit in the front row and somebody asked me a question and he said, Perhaps er Dafydd there can answer. So I got up then and I spoke to the room you know and we were more or less helping one another out and I thought the Chairman had done well when he said erm they don't speak er Welsh for fancy or anything they use it as every day. And he give us. Well, we've had quite a lot of money from Oxford from different people so you don't know. There's some people send us money and say, I've read in such and such a paper, erm somebody send it from Chesterfield the there their paper there, and they send us ten pounds or something and erm you know erm you never know how the fruits er. Somebody want us to go to Newark, I think that is by Nottingham isn't it, to speak there. And now there was a chap on the phone last night he want to go to Valley and I was trying to tell the bloke who who he between doing pickets and trying to keep count and er . Oh he said, You don't have to send er professional speaker or anything just somebody to have a chat with ya. That'll boost the situation up some. Got to see later today to see what arrangements we can make. You erm you said that er y you felt that possibly after Christmas that the things would go fl flat a bit. How how do you sort of manage to keep people's spirits up the dynamism? I don't know you know it's er it er we do manage and of course what breaks er people's spirit is I mean we we know we don't get the money we should be having. Well if you've got a big bill or something hanging over your head, that will send you quite erm into the dumps. We try and help them out mm best we can. Of course we haven't got erm money to just er s do what you like. We had a party a party for the kids in Aberystwyth on Saturday, but all the students paid it never cost us a halfpenny. And it was a kiddies party really. Yes they gave us a drink of beer and that erm and that was entirely up to them and erm. And I mean there are lots of things now er which er how can I say I never had much interest before erm never thought th that they when you've seen the help in hand they've dished out erm , S D P,the erm oh the Council of Churches which you know never There are all sorts of erm I tell you another people and erm I sha the Gay and Lesbian Society you know, people take them er lightly but er it makes you sit up and and think now. And we had a really nice letter and good donation from them you know. So everybody that reaches out a helping hand. Naturally Mrs Thatcher doesn't reach out a helping hand cos this this is right in her er cricket pitch. No without being erm we get them from medical sides you name them they come and erm oh it's fantastic. But I never thought I'd er be doing this type of job t'other day er. No as I say I haven't got much to lose or anything but I think it's a trade that is worth protecting and er you know it's not a trade er it's a living for the people innit? And should be a decent living erm yes but surely with all the demand there is today for slate and that. You you've indicated that the work that you've been involved in has changed you in some respects i i it certainly m m made you m m more aware of of other other other people and the way they're prepared to help. Do you think that's had an effect on your your mates as well? Yes erm I don't know if I mentioned you a question properly er right there were young lads in there they be young lads in that lodge do this and they jump up and they make a decision quickly. But you got to start putting all the works in motion oh yes what is the end product or what is the outcome of this and that. And I've been a few years on the Council now and when I first went on the Council I was going to move mountains and make oh big Taj Mahals everywhere, but when you get on these things you have a rude awakening, it doesn't work out that way and it works out exactly the same in this erm. You can have one quick move and if it's a false one well er you made a bad mistake and you've gone back about er whatsit and I think 's done exactly the same here he's sacked us and he's put himself in er in er queer corner s like a game of draughts you know and he's trying all roads to come out of it. Fair enough, well if I can help him in any way by talking to him, it's not a case of who wins and who loses, we all lose. I'm quite prepared to do it. And er I've told Tom and the Union bloke who's said, Yes if you can talk to anybody member of the family to bring anything any consolation, do it. So I'm not creeping back for my job but anything erm it's not that and erm But the lads in the lodge sometimes you've got to and er I've got a bit of er well a speery voice you know rough so sometimes I get a little bit of control on them and erm also as I said about these chaps that are working, erm we're not blind, we know what's happening and we've got sympathy even with them. And we don't want, another thing, we don't want to do now is erm get man against man. You see if we can split this Union in two, that's exactly what the management wants. Well we're playing right into their hands. Though we're not in agreement to what's happened, we got to be very careful because you see what's happened to the coal er dispute. And er if I can help it I've got to erm do me best to stop that happening. Is that is that level of of un understanding er sort of part general within within the mine? No not you get different statements different erm I wouldn't like to repeat some of them right, but if them lads sat down and studied it erm same as I've said now and they say, Well yes aye. If we quarrel if we have a good punch up and all that between us and them that would suit the other side right down to the ground. So we're losing. So really we've got to erm give in right in our estimation they were wrong. Erm and I've said further on that erm some could have afford to stay out but that's they we're not all built the same and erm we must avoid that at all cost. And I suppose it's up to us like the erm the old stagers to we should know better and I think Tom the Union chap, he's he can see that and he wants to avoid it cos he's got to speak to the lot of them ? You've you've made it clear with him that you discriminate quite clearly between the people that go back to work because they've got children or they've got l lot of finan and they've got to do a lot of financial obligations and those who who don't. Would you say that is true? No there are some er lads gone back to work yes they got children they got mortgages we realize that. There are some gone back to work they haven't got all that heavy obligations but there are lads on the line which have got very heavy complications and children and they have stuck it out you know. So it all depends how you different people different personalities and that and erm right though I don't agree with them at all what they've done, erm as I said, If I don't speak or if we don't whatsit we going to ruin the whole thing we're fighting for. Would you say that that the that the experience of the N U M has been a very important one f f for you in that respect ? Oh yes very much so and we've been these er lots secretaries and presidents and all miners and that they've been coming up you know and er you had a chat with them and they put us don't let this happen, don't let that happen, and make sure that erm you know people don't suffer and er oh it's been quite a vast experience for us yeah. And they still keep on sending not just one flash in the pan you know. They still know that we need that help. Now erm they've been quite good to us. As I said I don't like to ment to pick people out because it sounds as if the others are not doing. We've had people we had one chap an old mate of mine he give us fifty P well he's on the dole there. You know er you felt whatsit. But that's it the system isn't but they send us a donation which they'd had for appearing on B B C or something. Now erm I think it is and he rang me up and asked me would the strike still be on in the middle of er February. Well I said I can't say I wish it was over tomorrow. But if it was over tomorrow I said it's still left our lads in quite er hole financially, and we shall still need that. The help won't stop like overnight, we must keep going. I said in that case we will make you a concert in mid January and I think he said are coming with them. Now er they were having a concert and I think was the principal part and when he went to have his fee he said, Oh no you can send it to the Blaenau Ffestiniog. So I think writing to John to thank him. I mean I don't like to pick people out there's quite a lot erm er Dr from South Wales he lives here, well he was born and bred here. We had a nickname for him, they call him. Erm won't mind that. He's been quite good to us and er they sing on the street for us. Erm act I could go through that book and erm it's never ending. Yeah. Well Dav Dafydd thank you very much. Okay. Can I give you those? Mm. there's not much on the table. Sorry. committee meeting was held on the sixth of July at two P M, the President Mrs was in the chair attendance as per register. Minutes of the previous meeting were read, confirmed and signed. The August outing is now to be to Westcliff, cost two pounds sixty, seventh of August leaving at nine thirty A M payments to be made at the July meeting. The hall maintenance erm should be commenced soon. The whole management committee of four, we decided five didn't we?. Well I should leave that because that would be right for the time. It's to be formed, so far Mrs E Mrs have volunteered to be on it. Mr was put in two new lights one fluorescent and one bulb, he was paid five pounds and costs. July the thirteenth is a coffee morning for the raffle. Due to a number of circumstances Amy feels she should not be treasurer for nineteen ninety one. Mr is to be asked to do the floor after the kitchen is finished. Twenty three leaflets or booklets are to be ordered from value for money, that's that funny one you've got there. County have sent us five draw books for a doll's house. A letter from County informing us of that nineteen ninety two subscriptions are to be nine pounds. A thank you letter received from St. Clare's Hospice for a cheque given for two hundred and eighty pounds. And a new auditor needs to be found. Four new tables received from Gopak cost two hundred and eighty five pounds. Payment for the holiday to be paid at the July meeting. Help is needed by Gwen on the thirty first July at the Victorian Fair. The meeting closed at three forty P M. . Bit wrong. Thirty first of July will be. That was a coffee morning. It's the seventh of September.. It's the eight . Oh it's the eighth is it? Sorry. Yeah . Margaret the . We'll get it right in a minute. Wonder why I put that.. Oh yes, it's the treasurer for the nineteen ninety two Margaret, not ninety one, I'll alter it. Can I file it otherwise? Thank you Matters arising, the outing. In spite of all I said I enjoyed it, thank you very much .. It was very good actually, the weather could have been a bit better but erm thanks very much for arranging it, it went very well. The tide was in. we were lucky cos it didn't start to rain did it till we got back in the coach? so that was well planned. Yes. Thanks very much Janet. The hall maintenance, well I don't know whether you've all noticed we've got a new sink out there, looks quite smart I think and you all agree the ones who've seen it? Er, I've had a word with Jeremy about decorating, oh Florrie I must apologise I did try to ring you, I think I managed to get everybody else, erm but you weren't there, in and then I, I left it I regret to say, erm but we thought perhaps we ought to have the kitchen re-decorated and I've had a word with Jereminy, Jereminy, Jeremy and he says about two hundred pounds and I did get permission from some of you and I've gone ahead and asked him to do it and he said about three weeks, but before we can have that done, in the meantime, the roof leaked again out in the kitchen Erm, so I've had a word with Peter who was going on holiday and he should be home this week and he said he will look at it as soon as he's home, so I'll give him a ring, I'll try tomorrow night, I'm out tonight, I'll try and give him a ring tomorrow. What is it again then Rose, is it the tiles off or something. Well it was off before and, and he put it back and it seemed to be alright didn't it Joan? Yes, I thought it .. You see we really need it felted underneath. Yeah. And it would stop all this problem, but I don't think we've got the money for it. No. We'll have to look into it to see if we can't manage it. It didn't go off on itself did it Rose? It's that bit in the front which I gather was an extension, am I right? Oh I don't know.. Well I think it, I think it was put on after this bit. It was built after this bit, from, from what I can make out and this is felted underneath the tiles but that bit isn't and that's why we get the problems out there, but he put the tile back but it slipped. Yes. Yes. Whether it's slipped again I don't know but he said he'll look. So we've gotta do that before Jeremy can start. Mm. Yes. Yes. Erm, then after that we'll have to look at the floor, but there's no point in doing the floor until the decorating is done is there? and the roof sorted out. Erm, Joan and Sheila very kindly volunteered to wash all the curtains in here and they've been done. I've volunteered to take the stage curtains to the cleaners and I haven't done it yet I regret to say , so my apologies, it will get done eventually, er I hope. But you won't be able to get those down Rose will you, all on your own? I mean they're heavy things aren't they? Well perhaps we can manage it on a chair , then I can take them up the Stow and put them in the cleaning machine. But he charges you doesn't he as though it's a private . Oh yes, yes . Where as at the Stow the machine only costs five pounds and you do it, you just wait for it and so we'd get these in two or three, but he'd probably charge us a lot more along there, unless someone likes to enquire what he charges? Erm. Well I'm going that way. Well I won't be able to do it till after the, the end of September, cos we've got the Victorian fair, the flower festival and Well, we'll leave it till then, then sort it all . then I'm on holiday for a week. So I'll take them then. Okay. Mm, mm. I'm sorry I didn't get round to doing it, but I did have the flu for quite a while. Erm, I think that's all the decoration and the hall maintenance. The hall. Now Edna said, didn't you say that the all the sideboards coming . Lillie , Lillie , we was playing darts on Monday, came out from the ladies toilets' and said You ought to see that skirting board, it's all coming away and rotting . She obviously uses it each week, so it's all rotted all coming away at the back of the pan. You see, I think our next priority must be that bit out there, where we, where we've got no damp course.. Because the erm, jumble sale room's in an awful state, isn't it? and Rentokil said it it went along in, into there. Mm. What does anyone else think? It's either that or the roof, we've got to do something. Well I think the roof is an emergency. Done first.. The roof has got to be done hasn't it? Mm We start getting bad weather and then we're gonna be in trouble aren't we? Mm, and I don't think bodging it up it seems to be doing the seems to be doing any good. No well I feel in the long run it's probably wasting money because erm we keep bodging it up which costs money, we might just as well see how much it is to get it and do it, and do it erm . Mm, mm . Yeah, we did have that quote, but there were other things on it. Yes, yes, I. Well perhaps we can get a new quote, you know, just for the roof and . Yes, I'll speak to Peter about it, see what he says and what is essential. Okay, will do. that's almost half the battle isn't it? Mm. Yes. Mm, mm. It saves a lot of bother I can tell you. Our Peter. How long ago was it that we paid six hundred pounds didn't we to get our roof seen to, doesn't seem all those many years ago. Yes, but that was when it was satisfactory . Well I don't know , we've had problems ever since six hundred pound and that was years ago, probably be six thousand now.. . I think the total quote he he gave us before was about four hun thousand wasn't it? but it included I think. Between three and four wasn't it? It was more than three quite definitely, ah but that included some other bits and pieces, I think with that it was over four thousand, and I don't think we've got four thousand spare have we Amy? Well we've got that amount we have got that amount in the erm building society, yes amount . Oh, we're better off than I thought. Don't want to run it right out. Oh no no. Anyhow, I'll ask him when we get a new quote. Refelt, or felting. Erm. Cos the last time we had it going up look certainly wasn't satisfactory was it? Wasn't it? It's always been a problem hasn't it? I. . What about your man? Gwen's just having hers done, she's in the throes of having hers rebuilt.. And I've got, we've got three very handsome young men in swimming trunks on top of my roof . What you complaining about Rose. And she won't send them over to me.. They're working ever so hard and I must say they were good, you know, erm, cos they haven't finished the job yet, but erm, I think they know what there about you know, and they've certainly got a lot of energy and it's a hard job.. Taking all their their er time, that's the biggest job, it takes their erm. The tiles? The top ones you know. . And, and they're all sort of preserved and they're all to bring down clean . But er, I could ask him. Well I think we'll have to get some other quotes, because Peter isn't the the roofer, he gets someone else to do it, so I think we ought to have some other quotes. Mm. Mm yeah. Yeah definitely. So will you ask them Gwen? Yes. And er, I'll come down and show them if they like. Yes, I will. Lovely, thanks very much, and Amy's just showed me our balance at the Bristol and West and it's six thousand four hundred and forty one pounds sixty five pence, so we are a bit better off than I thought. So that's lovely. Hall management committee, are there any more volunteers. I said I'll go . Will you Sheila, ah thank you, lovely. Thanks very much. Sheila will call. Sheila will go on, so that's lovely. Erm, and we had a a little meeting Margaret, Joan and I, just to go through the agenda for today, and we thought that, we th perhaps five was a better number, erm, because we thought Maisie would be on as she does the bookings, but we wouldn't expect you to do anything else, Maisie, yeah. . So, erm, and also as Joan pointed out if you've got four, if two of you want one thing and two another, there isn't a casting vote, so erm, five might be better. Does everyone agree or not? Mm. Did you get any response from the May meeting Rose? Well I have I didn't because I said that I would just tell them about it and then I would speak again this month and see what er, they say. Because we've also got to talk about erm officers and committee members. So first of all Amy you still want to resign? Yes, please. Erm, have you had for thoughts Joan? Thinking. Joan is thinking, that she might take over from me. Really. Oh. I might, I never said I would.. It's only a thought . I'm praying hard, so will you all join me. . May, may I say that when you dictate it, you did it all . Ah, but then you see Rose had written it all out . Well I'm sure the writing out of the agenda is, I, I'm not just saying it, the agenda is not difficult and I do everything I can and I will write any letters you want. Oh . So, you know whether I'm on the committee or not, I, I'd be quite happy to do that. So there wouldn't be anything from that point of view. I'm thinking.. Jolly good Joan Erm, now does anyone else feel they can't come on the committee? Me. Edna, one, two, three. Will you be on the management committee Edna? I, you know I don't mind, I enjoy handicraft but I find I'm out Monday playing darts, I'm out Tuesday doing handicraft and I look after a little boy who's got Cerebral Palsy four mornings a week and comes three in the afternoon and it's quite a lot. Mm. And you know in one week, but I'm quite willing you know just to get on with the handicraft, but I just can't be committed. So you'll do the handicrafts, I mean if, if, whoever is. Yeah, if nobody wants to do it , president I would just carry on and do it. Mm. And that, as long as they didn't expect me to turn up to every committee meeting. Mm, okay. Pardon. I'm sorry. Well, would any one like to be treasurer here? Or feel they could do it? Brenda do you think you could? No. Betty, anybody? . Margaret? Well I'm still treasurer at the bowls club and I don't feel that I want to take on two . Well I'll ask at the meeting, but I'll have to talk about it. If the worst came to the worst and we did get another president, I would do it, but I'd rather have a break for a little while. Erm, but if there was absolutely nobody else, I would, but I don't want that to get any further, because I don't want to stop somebody else. Mm. I do want a little break really and truly, but I, would do it if there was nobody else. So it's Edna, Marion and Sylvia, well thank you very much for all your help anyway. Well,. only too pleased to give it would I? I don't mind helping . Don't want to make any commitments . . Well you've got your husband and er, and. . Teas.. Yes. Thanks every so much all of you any rate. Mm Amy would you be on the committee? Yeah. Lovely, thank you. Erm, oh the raffle coffee morning I'm sorry I couldn't come, but I was laid low erm how did it go? I gather you had . Wednesday it went very well indeed, yes, I, we made forty four pounds, twenty nine pence on the day and then Betty went to Sawbridgeworth with some cushion covers and managed to sell them off for another five pounds so we got . Oh lovely . All jolly good, yes. Erm we don't feel you've got to spend all that raffle prizes, erm because we don't usually raise much more than sixty to seventy do we on the raffle? I don't think so any rate, so you know bear in mind when you choose your prizes. . Okay, lovely. That's very good though. Erm, the floor. I think we will happy we've had plenty of help you know . Mm. You know, everybody rallies round us,. Well actually I always think, Win always say that the W I runs itself because everyone gets on with things and they don't need to be told and, and when it actually comes to it no nobody wants to become president or officer.. But when it actually comes to doing work they're ever so good. It, it does sort of organise itself. . Mm. So were very lucky really. Oh I should've mentioned about the maintenance erm, we won't do anything about this floor until the rest of the things are sorted out, I think this is the least of our worries. Mm. Mm. Erm, the County draw, you said you've sold all the tickets Margaret, that right? What for the d doll's house ? Doll's house . Oh yes Good er the nineteen ninety two subs. Well I've written a letter which I'll read out to you, I haven't posted it because I think I ought to read it to the meeting and get their approval erm, or otherwise, erm,Dear Miss ,this is the General Secretary, W I subscription nineteen ninety two. I have been instructed by the committee and members of Harlow W I to write to you making the strongest possible protest about the increase in the W I subscription to nine pounds. I set out the views of the membership below. One, many of our members are elderly and managing on very small incomes and any increase in the s in the subscription is likely to mean that we shall lose members. This is particularly true in this area where we have to compete with the Townswomen's Guild which has a lower subscription and also with numerous Council-run activities, many of which are free or at a low cost for pensioners. Two, our institute has its own hall and as this is now about seventy years old and was not particularly well built in the first place, you will understand that it costs us a good deal in money and effort to literally keep the roof over our heads. We therefore have to ask our members to contribute to the upkeep by way of fund-raising activities and this increases their spending on the Institute by many pounds per annum. Three, we fail to understand why it is necessary or desirable for such a large proportion of this subscription to go out of our institute to County and National Funds. Three pounds fifty for our institute and five pounds fifty for County and National. For a large proportion of our members the activities of both County and National are completely irrelevant and all that matters is how good is the programme that is provided at local level. We appreciate the County put on an interesting programme of events, but since we are situated some distance from County Headquarters and public transport is virtually non-existent, we are unable to participate in very much. Also the cost has increased considerably, which is another obstacle. As far as national activities are concerned we have the greatest difficulty in getting a delegate to attend the tri-annual meeting in Birmingham this year and many members thought the money spent could have been put to better use. Whilst we realise that if we belong to a national organisation, there will be some additional cost to individual Institutes. Our organisation does seem to be top-heavy and in need of radical overhaul. The vast majority of members are recruited at local level by word of mouth and very, very few by the image-making publicity generated at national level. Please let us keep more of this subscription at local level so that we can provide the service that is required. We apologise for the outspokenness of this letter, but it is felt that if we are to continue as a national organisation of good standing, we must put our house in order before it is too late. Yours sincerely, Rose , etc, etc. That's great. Mm. That alright? Have you sent that Rose? I haven't sent it because I thought I must read it to the meeting. Oh. Erm before I sent, I only did it the other day, I regret to say any rate. Erm, Rose. Mm. Can I just say that after the last meeting and you urging us all to write I did write to them. Mm. And say . Oh thank you . And this was the letter that I got back. Thank you for your letter regarding the nineteen ninety two annual subscription. The National Federation executive committee had two decisions to make in determining nineteen ninety two subscription. Firstly whether these subscriptions should be for one year only or whether it should be fixed for three years to tie in with the tri-annual general meeting. The advice of the County Federation was sought, a promptly reply was received but equally divided; there was no clear guidelines. Cos of uncertainty about the arrangement over long period,decided to opt for one-year-only subscription. The second difficult decision to be made was what the subscription should be. There were various factors to be taken into account when determining the actual amount, previously the subscription adding and the fact that there had been no increase in the second year when inflation in increased considerably had to be taken into account. Secondly the decision is a nineteen ninety one budget by the Chancellor of the Exchequer who raised the level of the Value Added Tax to seventeen and a half per cent from fifteen per cent hit the income of the majority of County Federation and certainly the National Federation because Customs and Excise when VAT was introduced ruled that the annual subscriptions was made VATable. In other words for every three pounds, thirty membership fee, the National Federation it has to pay just over a forty nine pence to Customs and Excise. The third factor that has been given was the effect of the current recession which although these although a of communication is mentioned also provides a steady source of income to the National Federation. Apart from the subscription, the magazine relies upon advertisement income and with bankruptcies and liquidations these income has been heavily eroded. Finally the most important in the National Federation was the urgent financial needs of the Institute. Several letters have been received from the Institute pointing out how the cost of hiring important speakers would substantially be using their income. The National Federation was determined not to re-introduce the quota and equally determined to try and help the Institute financially. As a er result it was agreed to give the larger share of new subscription to Institutes, in actual fact Institutes received an increase of twenty nine point sixty two per cent. The National Federation had to consider all the points when determining the amounts of the new subscription to having raise various figures finally agreed on the amount of nine pounds. I trust this answered your queries on the increase in the annual subscription and your members' satisfaction, that they still consider it good value for money. Yours sincerely. P S Your point about W Is owning their own halls has been noted. Well that's a load of waffle, that answer nothing doesn't it? . I mean I've never heard a thing so. I wrote and said that a lot of members our pension, we couldn't afford it, and that we owned our own hall so therefore we had a lot of cost to to keep it in good repair and why was it nine pound. I, I see that they written your name on that so obviously it's, it, they've had so many. And the P S . Do you think I should read this to members before I send it? or do you think I should send it? No send it. Do you think it's alright. Yeah.. Okay, well I will do so. Perhaps you'll check the spelling for me afterwards will you? Yeah,. That, that's an awful letter really it doesn't answer anything does it? . Just a waste of time. No, no wiser now than I was before. No. No. Quite honestly. Eh, and they, I mean they didn't say whether it was for one year or three years in that piece of paper anyway did they?. They say . It is for one year. One year. Mm. Four . No. never stated two or three years. No. They never put it down if it goes up do they? Oh no. But I mean if the Townswomen's Guild can do it for cheaper why can't we? Some . Yes, yes. Do you think it has anything to do with the organising the you know, a lot of money . Yeah. Yeah. Yes it was. Mm. Quite a bit more wasn't it? Very costly. Yes. Put on It, it must've cost a fortune, because er extra because of all the hotel accommodation we had to have as well. Mm. I mean they didn't pay for that it cost us more money. That's right. Cos county er they er debated whether it would be a three year or one year meeting to tie in with the tri-annual. Mm. you know. Mm. It would have to be done in . No well. I I would think that's just a letter. Yeah. Yes, it is. They just put the bit on about the hall after. Mm. They probably. Yes. Perhaps they send you a similar letter . Be interesting won't it to see? How much does the Townswomen's Guild pay anyway? Erm. Erm, I don't the exact figure but it is quite a bit less, erm seven pounds odd I think isn't it? Could you say, er one of our members has already received your standard reply perhaps .. Something more to the point. More detail on it. Yeah, well, I'll, I'll write if I get the standard reply shall I? Six twenty five the Townswomen's Guild. Six twenty five. That was July. That was July, yes I knew it was quite a bit cheaper. And are their headquarters in London like our . Birmingham. They're Birmingham. You see, I don't see why we have to have London and they bought the blessed place. Anyhow let's progress, I'll send it off any rate if you think. Yes, I think it's very good. Amy have you, have you had any luck with an auditor or not? No, I'm, I have been in touch with Betty and erm, and her husband says that erm he cannot help us and can't recommend anyone. I've got a feeling that Alwin and Pat use an auditor. Oh I thought they're . Well I thought so, but that was well that was the reply . Oh. Sorry. I think Alwin and Pat use an auditor cos as you know he's in business and I've got a feeling that Alwin was asking me about the auditors the other day, so whether there's would be, whoever he is, would be er willing to do it, I don't know. Pat part qualified. Oh no, no. No it must be er an accountant. Could you ask? Yeah, I'll ask Alwin, yeah, I'll pop And you in there. mm, sorry. And you were going to ask Margaret were you? I'll find out how qualified she is. Person who does the church accounts? Yes. Mm, well I was wondering . The church fund. Yeah. No, Derek would tell us. Yeah. Only we must do that fairly soon. Yes, because er, the books are closed at the end of this month which is, you know, you've got to give the auditors time to get the hall done before the A G M. which is in November isn't it? Mm. So all of you that have expenses. Yes, that, I'll have to sign that. Sorry Amy. It's alright. Carry on. It's alright, only if you can let, all of you that have expenses, can you let me have them by next Wednesday and erm, I will, I can pay you out then at the meeting and erm, because you know, everything has to be in erm by the end of this month. Okay. auditors, sometimes someone at the bank will do it. When we had the W I shop someone erm, I, I didn't bank did it, you know . Charging the earth for things. No, no, I was thinking of bank. Oh privately. Mm. Ah. And that's years ago, but. . Does anyone have a friendly bank manager?. Erm, if you could let me know as soon as possible about erm these people, because if not we've got to, you know really try some other sources. Did you hear Margaret. No. Erm Amy said could you find out as soon as possible about your church person, erm, because she's got to get somebody else if they're no good and er Elsie's going to find out. Perhaps you could let me know at the meeting next Wednesday. Yes, yes . If at all possible. Erm Victorian fair if anyone else wants to help, I'm sure Gwen would be only too pleased, any food. Erm, correspondence. Margaret. Letter from Jean . Thank you and all my friends at the Women's Institute for the lovely flowers, cards and letters sent to me during my illness. I really do appreciate all kindness you have given to me, Jean . Does anyone know how she's getting on, somebody said she was down, said she was on holiday . Eh she was away I think when, or she'd gone out when called in upon here a fortnight ago. She was just having an .. Mm, poor Jean. She's having treatment still, she she goes for a couple of days at a time. Mm.. Yeah. A letter from Lilly 's daughter. Dear friends thank you very much for your messages of condolence upon the sad loss of my mother Lilly . I am sure you will miss her as much as we are, our consolation was that her suffering was not protracted. Thank you also for the ten pound cheque which I'll be donating to Cancer Research, Yours sincerely, Angela . I'm sorry if any one of you didn't know, but Lilly died, do you know. . Yes, I was coming to that actually, I've got it down. Erm, she died quicker than I think they expected actually, she had cancer of the liver, so I'm glad she didn't suffer any longer. We did take a plant into her on the Saturday before she died, and then she died the following Saturday er and she. When was this Rose?. Yes, it's between the meetings and, and the funeral was last week. Last Tuesday. Last Tuesday. Yes. And er, some of us did go, Maisie went and and I went and there was Joan ,. Joyce . Eh Joyce. Joyce. Er Joyce, I always call her Joan, Joyce . Erm, it was a lovely service but that was no consolation, but still. County are selling some W I sweat shirts. Oh yeah. You can have a white one at eight pounds fifty, or a black one at nine twenty five, medium, large or extra large .. They liked to sell some, if you want one tell me. . Erm a letter from Harlow Council. Application for grant aid. I am writing in the reply to the ongoing correspondence and discussions between yourselves and various departments within the Council regarding your application for funding for repairs to the building in Garden Terrace Road. The delay since February was as a result of a change in the way Harlow Council administered grant aid. Until then each department had its own grant aid budget, which was administered by the service committee. Applications were often referred between committees causing considerable delay in a decision being taken. A new grant aid procedure was introduced recently and all funding requests received since February have been held pending the information of the new system. This system deals with all applican applications from grant aid which now comes under the remit of one committee. On the twenty fourth July nineteen ninety one the new resources and policy grant sub-committee met for the first time and considered a number of applications including one from your organisation. I regret that the committee decided it would not approve funding as detailed in your application. Jean . Oh. I mean we knew that ages ago... Erm,there is a half yearly Council meeting at Blackshots Lane, Grays, Thurrock. The speaker will be Sarah an authoress whose talks are most entertaining and amusing. In order to be able to make seating arrangements I would be grateful if you would please, please and return the slip below no later than thirtieth August nineteen ninety one. Oh that's gone. We shall be sending one delegate or one or two visitors so, shall I send it and say no? Mm, I shouldn't worry, I should just leave it. I should forget about it. Surely the. Oh it's just the, sorry I was miles away when you it's a half yearly Council meeting in there. I was gonna bring that up. Does anyone want to be a delegate. It's a long way to go. Yes. County isn't it?. Mm. Well this is at Grays isn't it? Mm. Does anyone want to go? . But it's difficult to get there, if I mean it's quite a . . Well ah, we can mention it at the meeting, but I mean it's too late really and er anyhow I shouldn't think anyone will go. Surely . If they don't go then our diaries and calendars will have to be . . There's something else I might be able to . Erm, there's a nomination for, for the executive committee nineteen ninety two to nineteen ninety four, erm, this must be back to the County by the twenty second September, nomination for the executive committee and up to twelve members may be nominated. Does anyone want to nominate somebody? No, forget about that. Just a minute Rose, I think there's something else here. Mm . No, no that's for them to send in Being inundated with bits of paper. That's about the show which is over There's this thing from the Bradford and Bingley saying that they've amalgamated with somebody and erm they're not publishing their interest rates at the usual times, I don't think it's anything world-shattering. I think that's all. Well there's something else here. A meeting has been arranged for two representatives from each institute owning their own halls at the W I centre in Chelmsford on Monday the twenty first October from ten until twelve noon noon. Our accountant has been asked to attend and it is hoped any questions you may have can be answered by him or federation officers. Does anyone like to go? I should think it would be very interesting . Well if somebody's going we can. We went to that other thing before.. I, I'll go. Is that a follow up from that last one we went to? Well I presume it's something like that, do you remember it was an absolute dead loss when we went before erm and we did tell them so . . And they're not charging us this time you will notice. Oh yeah. Really, it should, if there's the accountant there who's ever going to be treasurer next year should go . That was very for us last time was it? No, well they've actually done something this time, the accountant's going to be there, I mean when we went last time they just said we know nothing about running a hall, we bought you here to tell us and charged us for the privilege. Yeah. Well I wouldn't mind going but I don't want to drive there. Well I'll drive. But I think whoever is going to be treasurer, erm. Oh yes, they only want two so that would be you and a treasurer. . Well I mean you could go with the new treasurer, but they would drive, so erm. We'll just have to wait and see for . Well say, say that erm, oh do you have to say? It does say erm. Let them know does it? . No. I shouldn't think there'd be so many people there,. I think there's twelve in Essex so there'd only be twenty four wouldn't it? But if there's somebody going to speak then it is worth while I think. . And certainly if I did become treasurer I would want to, to know something about it cos I don't really. er anyhow, I'll make a note of that. While I've got my diary open Rose I see on the twenty third there's a meeting at Nazeing for the spring group meeting. Ooh is there? Mm. Mm, at ten thirty in the morning at erm Back Lane, that's just off Nazeing Common, remember Margaret, they told us didn't they? Mm. Could we have any volunteers to be delegate? Well yes. You've got to have . . On the twenty third I've got it down for of October. Again when we went the last time they said that . Probably give us a reminder. That's right at ten thirty A M . Ten thirty yeah. Profits Cottage. Yeah that's right. Yeah, well I, I was going to . Going to. Will you Margaret? Oh lovely. Yeah, I don't mind going with Margaret and Rose if you as well. Oh fine you'll come as well. Mm And that's the, the twenty third . twenty third . Mm. Lovely, thank you very much. Erm, and a we had a thing from Denman, for next erm June, the the thirteenth which is a Saturday to the seventeenth which is a Wednesday from ten till six P M. It's called the Denman's Summer Festival Focus on Europe, and,don't miss the exciting chance to come to Denman College during the Denman Summer Festival, when we should be celebrating the closer coming together of the European commu Community. A spectacular programme of events, displays, demonstrations and activities and so on and so forth. Erm, National Dancing, Choir Singing in the church, Cookery, Sports Activities, Crafts and Flower Arranging, W I Markets, information about the E E C and much, much more, morning coffee and afternoon tea, continental ice cream and soft drinks will be available. You are welcome to bring a picnic lunch. Something struck me, would this be a good idea for an outing. Mm. Yes. Good idea. Yeah. Erm, we've got to send this off before the first of November though. This is for next summer, but I think we could take a chance don't you? Yeah. Yeah. Applications invited from W Is, the closing date for bookings is the first of November ninety one after which the ticket allocation will be made and the entry fee is two pound a person. Mm. Doesn't. It's sort of Oxford area isn't it where . Yes. . Please indicate which days places will be held. Could you ask them at the meeting next week if they would like us on an outing to Denman because they're, a lot of them don't really know what Denman is do they? No. And er, and, and what month is it? What month is it? It's June. June. June. Mm. The thirteenth to the seventeenth. Mm. A lot of people won't commit themselves to that kind of thing. Well I don't expect they will, but er I mean if a number of them were interested enough, I mean people are away on holiday at that time, but, if we thought, if we got the response we could, what do you think? What you, what. We've got to commit ourselves. Nice day, the grounds are quite pleasant. Mm. Mm. And then the whole, the thing has been, the house has been done up hasn't it? Go round the bedrooms. No, it sound a good idea if it don't fall apart nearer the time. Yes, this is the only thing. Well we have to take a chance. Have, have a . We'd get quite a lot of people I think. You send for fifty tickets. Yeah. I think we might get, if we did have an outing and the other institutes locally haven't got one. Mm. . Yes, mm. So I'll ask at the meeting. Mm. Then perhaps you would then, Janet. Right. Go off and we'd just have to bear the costs. . Yeah, it'll be about a hundred pounds wouldn't it? Mm. Anyone got any objections to it, or think it's not a good idea, do say. no I think it's a good idea. Mm. I mean I did go to Denman, but I wasn't very well at the time and I didn't get round the house so I would like to go myself. There's something about, I don't know whether you've heard about it, about this education and training for twenty first century, and something about they're not funding leisure classes the government or something . Yes It was on the television the other night wasn't it? Yes, it was on the radio . Mm, and er National asking us to contact our MP about it if we have strong feelings. We do. Would you like to write to your M P? Cos some may find helpful, women will be the main losers in adult education cutbacks. Almost eight out of ten students in adult education in the U K are women. The education of countrywomen when it's a vital part of the programme for the W I. Oh there's an awful lot of it. Does anyone want to write? It's got it down on all these adult educational classes that even though. Yes and they said their prices are gonna go way up. They have. They have already. Mm. I mean this, you, could you pay yours today? Well we paid sixteen pounds altogether. Sixty eight pounds and then ten classes and then you have to pay two pounds student's fee. That gets me, yeah. . Really does. I mean it was fifty pence. Yes. It's gone up to two pound. Oh, I think that's awful. And that's all to do with students' union. I mean your class is much cheaper than the one I go to. Why do you have to pay, it is a for students' union, if, if, if you're in work you don't have to belong to a union? There's lots of strong argument about it, but they just adamant aren't they?. Yes. They are. I mean there's no compulsion now is there, in industry, I, I don't think there is. Can you . Do you know what yours has gone up to? Don't know. No, Florrie. We're going tomorrow. I thought it started next week?. You enrol . Anyhow if you're interested and want to write. Essex News, I really haven't had time to look through it erm, but there's rather a nice little bit which I must read. The W I Attitudes. Lift up the strong in arm for they shall put out the chairs, blessed are they whose heads are bursting with ideas, for they should be put on the programme committee. Blessed are the hewers of wood and the drawers of water, for they should organise the teas. Blessed are those that listen intently, yes even with their eyes on the president's face, for they can be conned into volunteering. . Blessed are they which hunger and thirst after knowledge for they shall attend classes at Denman. Blessed are they who sit quietly with their eyes modestly cast downwards, saying nothing, volunteering nothing, for they are the majority of W I members . True, very true . So I must read that after the meeting. Yes. And wait to see whose face turns red. Oh. Won't be listening. That'll be . . Erm. . Huh, there's a bit about great grant aided classes just below it. Yes. And I wanted to bring this up because erm, when I find my little bit of paper, erm Elsie , who went with mothers to the county show at Pressing Barns, so a demonstration on silk flower making from Japanese silk ribbon and she said it was excellent. And this women gives talks and demonstrations or courses and she also had some other courses on paper quilling, gift wrapping and bow making, cracker making and patch work. Erm, now it did cross my mind, that it would be nice just to see it and have a talk and a demonstration, but I think our meetings are too big really for that sort of demonstration, I wonder if we could have it at the handicraft afternoon. I thought it, I thought, we sort of said yes . Well yes, we thought about it didn't we. Ah, ah, I just thought I'd better explain to everyone, sorry. Oh sorry. Erm, thought it would be nice at handicrafts afternoon and then we could throw the handicraft meeting open to anybody if I told them at the meeting before were going to have it. What, it, it was going to be about twenty five pounds wasn't it Jean? A bit more expensive. Have you got that, I've got one of these. Make to Sheila. Oh dear, that means it's very hard. Perhaps give you a bit more detail. Oh one day course, oh ten till four. Erm the course will cover cutting, stretching, squeezing and pulling the petal shape and putting together by wiring, gluing and taping to form the flowers, one day course ten A M to four P M, twelve pounds fifty, inclusive of materials per person. Oh it's per person. Yes, yes. Oh, that puts a different complexion. Well no, no, this is, this is a course, but this what I'm talking about is a talk and demonstration. Yes. Which is a bit different, and I gathered from Elsie that was twenty five pounds, I don't really know. That's a bit different from the course isn't it? Did anyone else see it it was very good, very good. . Well if you throw it over to the meeting, all of those would come would only be interested wouldn't they? which is what you want. Yes, but they, you wouldn't have to pay twelve pounds per person just for a talk. Do you think it'll be worth making some more enquiries? Yes. Do you think you could Sheila? Yes. Would you mind? Not for, then we could think about having a grant aided class if we if we could get one still for this leisure activity, if people were interested. Erm, we could make some more enquiries, after she, if we thought it was interesting enough couldn't we? What do you think? Yes. Well it's worth some enquiries Rose isn't it? Mm, if you wouldn't mind Sheila anyway, thank you. Erm, the carol festivals are on and there's one at Thaxted, which might be quite nice, actually, erm it's on the same page, the previous column And someone's just taken a driving test at ninety one. And she passed with flying colours She's been driving for years apparently but she had to take a test. Anyhow, I leave you to go through anyway, cos we'll be here all day. Erm passed this evening. Erm choir, forty five pounds, forty four P, Eastern Electricity thirty eight pounds, twenty three, Peter , the builders, for the new sink, four hundred and ninety one pounds and fifteen P and Eastern Gas, eleven pounds, twenty seven. I've got a little bit here going from Mr he had to come in again and see to two lights and he'd only take two pounds and that included the light bulb, but I paid him so that comes out of the . I see. We can't keep imposing on him for that amount though really. Yes, he's quite active. He's quite happy to help. He really is,. He's quite happy to come for those two ladies .. I'm sure,.. We won't enquire any more about that. I think getting a bit cross .. . Oh lovely. And put new castors on it, the old wooden one see it Oh jolly good,we won't ask what the fee was. So that just made quite a big hole in our money. Mm. What you have quoted from the bank, the six thousand, four hundred and forty one, er is that . That's the building society. That's the building society, so the money for the repairs didn't come out of the building society. No, it'll come out of the bank yes . That money come out of the bank . So how much is in the bank then? Not, not a lot at the moment, I don't think, erm, the end of July erm there was eight hundred and something, but there's been quite a few bills that have come out of it although that doesn't include the two receipts that Maisie has just given me which is about a hundred and eighty, so that's nearly another two hundred in, but we're alright, we're. But that six Rose, I'm not criticising, well I am criticising, to me that seems an awful lot of money. It is a lot of money. It is but. I think it's rather dandy he's finished off, he's put this white erm stuff you know what they squeeze from now . masking . That's all over the pipe isn't it. He didn't have to put new piping in did he, I understand, it's an awful lot of money . I think it's a lot of money It is a lot of money . but you see labour is such a terrible erm cost these days, it's so much to get anything done. His put some little vents in the doors, but they're not very pricy . Yes, but you can get yeah. I mean they're not, they wouldn't cost a lot. No, but it must be time consuming, yeah, course. I thought it was a terrible lot of money when I saw it . It is a lot of money mm, it is a lot of money. It's very difficult. That's why I think we ought to have another quote for the roof actually. Yes. Definitely. Yes. Mm See, you just can't get people to do all these odd jobs can you? Not really.. Well there is about the hall we might be able to read them that letter, from the new . Oh, do you want to read it? No, you can read it. Dear Mrs , or s! Oh yes, they always put . What a delightful hall it was. It was admirably, and so very suitable, it was also very refreshing to find a venue that has such a warm atmosphere about it, please find enclosed a cheque for its hire, may I also confirm the date for the October meeting the twenty fourth, many thanks indeed, yours faithfully, John . We've got one fan.. What, what, what organisation is this? Masonics only a few of them. Mm, lovely. Erm, has erm, have people got their sort of quarterly reports, it is this month ? Yes Yes, I've got mine. Elsie? Erm thirty right pounds sixty five. That's the raffle Elsie is it? Mm. Yeah Sixty five pounds and twelve pence. All this money has to be paid in. Sixty five pounds and twelve pence in tea money. Did you get that. Oh sorry. Who else? er market stall? She'll give it to you Wednesday . She'll give it to you Wednesday. Mm. Anybody else. Well there's handicraft, but I have a committee . Mm, okay fine. Now, Amy said something about paying this money in did you? Yes. Do they pay it in ?. All monies . No they, they usually keep it.. Hold it over I think, don't you. I've got it, I'm only going by what Betty wrote little things in erm this book that has to be done. Erm. Is that profit from a year or two years Profits since we took it over.. You're doing a marvellous job. Erm, end of year, all money into bank, handicraft, teas, market stall, raffle. Oh. Have you pay for, you've got to pay for . . Yes, you pay market stall . Well I would like, like to get rid of some of this money, it is quite a lot of money seventy five pounds . It is actually yes. That's a sort of thing she does. Well let's say, if you feel you've got more than, you should hand over to somebody next time. Yeah. Would you let er, Amy have it? I think that's the best thing, yes you Amy. And could, would you put it in a bag er with a little erm ticket in it you know, how much it is and what it's for and. If I give you fifty pounds, I've got sixty five pounds twelve pence, if I give you fifty pounds, then that keeps fifteen pounds and twelve pence to buy tea bags and . Mm, you just do what you like . Marvellous, yes.. Mm. I like to when I'm up there, there's only one place open, I got up there, you see, and I've got it all in little bags and that so that. As I look behind me the queue was getting bigger and bigger.. I was hotter and hotter and then he er said I was short in one bag, so I quickly get some more, then when I turned round two people had disappeared under the queue behind me.. You did say you were from the W I did you? Couldn't get up . Could see you again.. I hope . How is thrift going er? . Oh no, it's alright. Yeah, I mean, I never thought about it Mm. Erm what, well, what made me ask was Lillie , and her . I had a call from Doris and apparently Lillie's been saving from her daughter, is that right? I don't think she's been saving I know that name is on my list. Just Lillie ? Yes, because they don't, there's one lady . Then, and so then but I haven't been seeing Mrs . Yeah. Mm well apparently it's actually for her daughter. Mm. And her daughter has asked if she can continue Yes. to save in this way. I said I had no objections, but I would have to ask, you know, the committee if they had because she's not a member as such, but obviously has been going on all the year. Does anyone have any objections if she carries on till the end of the year? It's still in Mrs 's name isn't it? Yeah.. Eh, it, it's going to be closed is that account in December and re-opened. Mm. At, well in November and re-opened in January isn't it? Yes. And so,there therefore it, it would be less hassle. Oh yes. If, if you carried on till November any way. So I'll ring Doris and tell her it's okay. That alright with everybody? er the jumble sale on the twelfth October, I gathered Joan's emigrating. Yes. She's got, help my friend. And so we've all got to help Sheila. Right. Will you be putting board round Sheila? Yes. Okay, fine. And the forms . We have got posters, we've started the posters out. Oh lovely. Use the same posters as we had last year, but put on, cover up and put a new on, use them up. Oh you've got more than you had, needed last year. Yes. Yes. Oh that's fine. Yes, there was fourteen there isn't it? Will you want a . And you'll want jumble won't you? From now on. Okay. The coffee morning for the Tombola. Eh yes it's on the twenty eighth Saturday, twenty eighth of September, now that's a Saturday immediately after our W I holiday. Oh yeah. So, you'll remind me next week won't you? I think Freda said she was going to er, you know, ask you. Mm, okay, fine. ask for next week. And there's no tickets, there's no tickets. Yes, she has got some tickets, a , she's made some and erm hoping those who can't come will buy ticket at least, but if they would bring a bottle you know, something for the prizes er erm they don't pay for coffee, biscuit. I see, if. Coffee, biscuits don't buy . You either buy a ticket or you come with a bottle. Yes. Yeah. Mm. like at the Aneurin Bevan and places like that tickets. Oh lovely, jolly good. There was twenty eight of us. Mm. One week,people, cos we'd be away the week before. Yeah, but we'll tell them next meeting. . Okay. Er, the monthly meeting, speaker's requirements Sheila. Nothing no charge.. lovely. I hope they bring lots of nice samples. Erm, competition Dora. Yeah, I was just wondering who can I get to . What happened when you had a limerick last time? Because I won it, and I was away, I was poorly. Do you remember Joan, I think you were doing it, and we had a limerick, years, some years ago, we had a limerick, I think Joan was doing it. Yes, I think I was. And I think somebody said people read them out. Yeah I think Hilda did. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, I'm sure Hilda read. And then how, did they just vote for them? . Yes, we did Rose, yeah it was I'm sure. Do you want to do that this time? or. . Well let's see what everybody . I should think it's the best way, I can't think of anything else. Could the speaker judge it? Yeah. Is it a male or a female speaker? Could be . A male? It's a man is it? Oh I don't know why, I just assumed it'll be a women. Well we could ask the speaker but, wait. . I think . Then you can read mine. Or you could read them out because then er, people did hear them. Yes. Hear them . . Hm. That could be a difficult bit. Hm.. Well if there was a tie, the speaker could give a casting vote, couldn't he? I see our friend is mystified!. sorry We have a competition each month of various kinds, and this month we've got to, as we've got the Dairy Crest, erm representative coming, we are writing a limerick including the word milkman, or something .. The mind boggles. I've already written mine, well I.. Did the milkman help you. No. I'm not telling you.. Bet she had that Benny Hill song .. I, never heard a word of it. Erm Vera is going to give ploughman's lunches. Isn't it marvellous that she so well Oh yes . Absolutely fantastic. Hm. Diaries and Calendars order. Ah yes, I ask you about those, erm cos we did say at one time that we thought some of you were going to the half yearly Council meeting and pick them up there. Well if I'm going to this meeting. Which is? I will pick them up then. Oh, so we wouldn't have to pay the postage. No, so you could tell them. So, I I thought it would be best if the diaries and calendars were ordered in September because the Home and Country orders er are the next month and that might be. Hm, I think we said last time that they had to tell you this month with the money. That's right, yes. Hm. How much are the diaries for? Eh diaries, two pounds, fifteen and calendars one fifty. Very good value I . Hm, so you want two pounds fifteen for a diary? Yes. And one twenty. One fifty One fifty for a calendar. What's on the calendar this year?. garden. And it's an appointment calendar. Where's that,this one. Detachable postcard illustrations. Anniversary card. What does. Seventy fifth anniversaries. What are the pictures? Oh seventy fifth anniversary. I think it tells you in the Essex News. Right. Next month's going to be flowers or something. I think it's got to be, erm they've got to be in because the, they've got to be collected in October. Yes. October the fourteenth, so they were having to be ordered at, next week, won't they? Mm. Well. Yes, that's what they're sent to do. Mm. Cos they've got to be collected on the fourteenth you see. Well I accept them . As we're looking at the Essex News, there's the result of the quiz there. Yeah. Mm. Very, very obscure some of them. They were. Anyhow, it's going to be trees and birds next year. Must admit that's the one none of us could get. Erm, Maisie who's doing the vote of thanks? Maisie! Who's doing the vote of thanks? Well, now, I wasn't, cos I was on holiday at the last meeting, so I couldn't check, I have down Grace , but it was also queried at the time. She won't be able to come because she's up to her eyes She won't in flower festival. Oh, alright, yes,then I'll ask her originally, but I say I couldn't, couldn't check up, well I'll find somebody else then . You'll whisper to me who it is. Yes, yes. Thank you. . Erm, I've done the tombola tickets. Anything else for the monthly meeting. Vera wants to talk, oh sorry. Do, do I have . Ooh.. Yes I've got that down here, I'm coming to it, yeah. Erm, so we've got to mention the Denman outing. Mm. And the Christmas outing. Yes. Now where do you want to go Christmas? Would like some ideas please. And the date. Where you want to shop . Well personally, I'd like to go to Lakeside, er, cos I've never been and so many people have been I don't .. It's nice and, nice and near, we need not be all the hours that we are sometimes at the other places need we? It doesn't take long to get there. No. It takes twenty five minutes. Is there anything else for people to do, who don't want to go shopping? No. . Absolutely nothing. Nothing. There's Gatehead. Yeah. I've been.. House of Fraser's just about opened, but there's nothing else. Just all shops . Ah there's, what about Lewis's, but there's not . That's closed. That's gone into liquidation. Mm. Bentall's has taken it over now. What have? Bentall's, I was there on Saturday. Hm. How about erm Canterbury? Yeah. It was lovely there. That was lovely last time. I like Canterbury, it's very compact and there's a Cathedral if you don't want to shop all the time, there's plenty of little places to eat. the thing with all in? Lakeside. Lakeside, just these fast feeding places like McDonald's. Mm. Where you eat one of these things and there . . I didn't, I didn't put . It's common isn't it?. Have you any ideas Janet? No, not really a great shopper, I, I, no I wouldn't like. What's Lincoln like? It's a long way . A long way . Norwich. Yes, been to Norwich, been to Peterborough. Norwich is not quite so compact as erm Canterbury thought is it? for people who can't walk. Peterborough's quite nice. Never been there. We went there, Cambridge. I think we shouldn't leave it too late before we come because the shops all close, it's cold and there's nowhere to sit. No, it's not very nice... Well wherever I think Margaret , wherever we go. Don't take any notice Margaret . Erm,. I've given . Who would like to go to Canterbury? Mm. I would as well. I think that's the majority, is it?. across Dartford to Dartford. It's not a very long journey it's, it's. It's not. You know, it isn't really very long Elsie. No, it's only down, it's only down the motorway and through the tunnel.. And the bridge I'll be open anyway won't it? Yes, it is. When they opening it? So, shall we say Canterbury? When? When? Be about November? Early November? Well after the W I or, after the meeting or before? Wednesday the twentieth. Wednesday the twentieth. Saturday.. Er Amy wants to go, and she can't go then. Ah, when? The twentieth. Well could we have it on the sixth and change the committee day?. Is that too early? , what the sixth of December? No, November. No, November. Is that too early? No. No, I think . Leave it just a . What does everyone think, I mean.. If we leave it to the following week of the November, you've got, there's ice coming up. Yes. You don't get long enough the W I meeting? er in October and you don't get their savings until, until the meeting on the er thirtieth.. That's a point.. What about the Tuesday the nineteenth?. Can you come by Tuesday . Yes. Erm. Well, that's . Do you mind handicraft skipping .. Week rather. Shall we say the nineteenth then?. Yes, that's a good idea. I think we should have all what we're going to have in for the bazaar thing,. Mm, and I think sometimes Tuesdays is is a quieter day for shopping actually, erm, so that's settled then, good. Nineteenth of November. Erm, the Christmas lunch. I ought to ring up and get the menus, but we've got to provide the lunch tickets. Is anyone keen on doing a few lunch tickets?. What day is that? The eleventh of . Somebody did suggest that we ask Betty's husband, but if he hasn't been very helpful with the auditor, perhaps he's not very keen on. Oh I don't think like that Rose. It's only isn't it? Yes . Well, you type them out individually. Yes, I know, but I mean it's only er, it's only er like a little hand printed thing isn't it? He types them. Leave it, I see if I can get a sheet done and we'll get them photocopied. Will you ? Oh that's a shame ,. Yeah. Tell me what you want put on them though. Mm. Okay, lovely. I've got a sample here. You've only got to go up here, they only charge you ten pence for a sheet, get a great big, actually I could type . new erm stationer's in the Harvey Centre, where Superdrug's used to be. Mm. You can get it done for five pence there. Can you? Mm. What a big sheet? Yes,if it's an A four. Mm. . It's just that I want to get it typed I s'pose. Yeah, I mean I, I could type, I would type the sheet if we can't get it done. That's all we need Rose.. If not I'll er. Well if you let me know at the meeting then I'll.. If you let me know at the meeting and . I'll need to know what we're gonna put on it. Yes, okay, that's a sample. Can I ask if you . . It's a the meeting date for December. Erm tickets will have to be on sale from October you see. What, what about the price Rose? Oh how much we're gonna charge? er. Don't know what's the date? What's the date? What's the date then? The eleventh of December Eleventh of December Eleventh of December . I haven't got the prices. It was six pounds odd wasn't it last time? Mm. Have we got . Yes, but the, the people pay five don't they? . It's five pounds on the ticket . Last year they paid five pounds we subsidised it. I don't know what you feel, do you think we should still subsidise it a bit? quotation you have for that. No I didn't Maisie, cos I asked Rose about that before because when you've got the cloakroom. Yes, you see, it wasn't . The VAT thing went up after that . The VAT's gone up, yes. . I know it was, it was changed to just over six pounds last year. Yes, six pounds, was it six twenty five or something? Yes, with, with the wine we were subsidising it by about one fifty last year, shall I put it up to five fifty this year? for members. Yes, I think so. Yes, I think so. And sort of gasp, the . Well I'll ring her up tonight as well and find out if it's, if it's gone up exorbitantly, I'll have to ring round, ring you and see what to do . Well can you let me know then Rose ? and then I'll . Yes, I'll let you know, Mm. Well let me know at the meeting. Yes, because we won't want to know before at, we won't want the tickets before October will we? so er. No. Be time. Yes okay, lovely. Now going back to this handicraft, although I said I really didn't want to be committed to all the meetings, I'm quite happy to carry on with the handicraft, providing you don't expect me to turn up at every meeting. No that would be fine, I mean, whoever's president will have to bear that in mind won't they?. feel that I might. I think the only drawback in that was, it's been discuss, that, if you are dealing with money here you are expected to be , but I can't see that'll make any difference because we're not tied to National cost at the bazaar are we? I mean, then, they're not giving us anything to . I think how we organise ourselves is up to the president and the committee . That's what I said , but I think Vera, erm yes Vera is . I said you must be a member to handle money.. Handle money. But I don't handle it, I've got a treasurer . In my case yes,doesn't it? I've got like Elsie I've got . Because of higher up. You've gotta committee . Yes. I see, Elsie does the money and the other two help with prices and things and. I'll have a look in the rules and regulations, work it out . Cos . still find that they . Mm. Erm. And he barely say you know it's sort of. But, I think it would depend on whoever's president really. Yeah, well. Don't fight with the . And that's, and that's . I know that they've stopped people doing it in the past because they wouldn't, didn't want . I, I mean I'm willing to come but I can't come each, every. Yeah. Every. Wednesday. I do find it a bit of a you know I enjoy my game of darts, I enjoy handicraft and I'm quite willing to, to it all, I shall see my back bedroom with all that stuff in it, God knows what, erm and get their tea and biscuits, but I've got a little committee as well that help me. Well let's worry about it. Alright. When the time comes. Okay then. But, I've, I've got no objections so erm. I'll hold on to this . Done the Denman outing, and just that Vera wants to have a word at the meeting about next year's holiday, which is, she's thinking about Scarborough. Oh. For those of you who are interested. That's a . Erm. . Now, has any, has any one got anything they want to bring up? No. Just that erm, Sheila and are have sorted some more things and we've fifty pound, no we've got forty five pounds. Oh, what a shame. We'll be getting money bags, won't we?. Wouldn't get much from me. Oh you don't know Betty.. It's not, it's not really . Well if, if you feel that the cleaning's not right, I mean. Well it isn't erm, I'm just wondering if, ah, we are getting, erm the right service from Sharon the cleaner, that we are paying for. Not when you see her. This is what concerns me. Not when you see her come in the hall on a Monday morning at eight o'clock having done three hours. Nobody's gonna tell if she's been here since five. I guessed this was happening, because er she told me that she gets here at quarter past seven. Well if she gets here at quarter past seven and three hours is quarter past ten, and she's supposed to be at the Penny Farthing at nine o'clock, so you know, I, I don't feel as though we are you know getting erm our money's worth from her at the moment, erm also erm she told me in the beginning that this was only go on was going on for about six weeks, well it has now been going on for over eight weeks and she now says that erm she doesn't know how longer it's going on for and I think she is just erm stalling us . Using us . You know what I mean and erm she wants this job because she wants the money and, but I don't really think that you know, she, she er, had the time to two jobs because she has three young children anyhow, I know that's her problem, erm you know who looks after them or what . She does an evening job as well. Does she? . Well erm you know, I've, I'm not very happy with the situation, but erm, it is entirely up to you as a committee you know, what you think. Well shall I come in on Monday and see with, if she's here? Well I'll be done because I usually go for the paper Rose, quite often Harvey's said she's coming out along the High Street five past at five past eight on a Monday morning. Well she's probably got to go home and get the children ready for school when it's school time you know . But it's the holiday time . Yes, erm. quarter past nine on a Monday. Jim came out. Yeah, yeah . Well I'll, I'll try and get down on Monday and see what she says and I say you know she must do three hours on Mondays. What must she do, what is it five hours a week? She's paid for five hours a week, three on a Monday, one on Wednesday and one on Friday, that's what she's supposed to do. She must do five hours a week . when I came in early . I think Sharon would be quite alright if . . Mm, Mm. Not very sensible for this job. No, I have terrible problems with her, losing her. No, she's not, you're not satisfied with the work full stop. Yeah. Get behind her aren't you?. Well, I, I, mean I have been in before and I did say last time we weren't very happy,. I told her about one or two little things. And you know, she's, she always seems very willing to put things right. Mm, yes. And she did admit that she had been skipping things, you know, and erm I hoped it would go on alright, that was a couple of months ago. sadly I would have said given enough warning. Yes. But hold on. . If she's admitted to skipping things and hasn't rectified it. Who are we going to get? used to do the tea.. Oh no, no.. You see, we've never been very happy with the people and she, she does do things if you ask her, I suppose the thing is that I should come down more often and say. But I mean like yesterday with dogs here the dogs were here on Thursday. Yes, and you see Mr came in to show her the hoover and she wasn't here was she?. I don't see how she can do the hours, with the hours that she's doing, I mean she's still in the Penny Farthing when I came here cos I went to pay her the money. You went into the Penny Farthing? Yes, yeah, cos now, that, see she's not here really for, for me to come and pay her so I have to take the money down to her house now. That's on a Wednesday isn't it?. And erm, you know, there's lots of little things that I'm not very happy. You can't, you run about after her . So, I will come and have words on Monday and see what happens. Well you see at the Penny Farthing she's supervisor, everyone think she's if you had her in your house and told her what to do she'll do it, but, she needs, she'll be quite . Yes, yes.. Well, Joan and Sheila there've been taking cobwebs down and things like that you know and then paying her to do it. Well I will go and have words and I'll report back to you. You'll have to come down early. Yes, well if I can't find her, I will have to ring her up and say what hours is she doing here? and I think that will be a way of finding out, but I'm not coming before nine and if she's not here at nine I will want to know why, what time she's started.. You're not gonna say Rose that you're not satisfied and unless it improves in the next week or so, if you will have,. I think so yes, I think, well I think we can , we've got to have the hours that we pay for. Got to stand .. And, and. . Well the thing is I'm thinking, you see, the end of the year erm is A G M November, so if we, you know, we are thinking erm, a, you know, getting someone else, er we could tell her that, you know, we wouldn't need her any more after November and sort of start afresh like that, try and get someone else. You see this is why I want the management committee because I don't really want to bother of interviewing somebody else and getting somebody else, do you see what I mean?. No, no, I understand that , but I was thinking you, to me it sound as though you sort of given her warning and . . Yes, we have , mm, but I suppose I'd been because I don't want the bother of, yes. . I did query, I did query the hours with her, the other week. Well then. Erm but you see, I mean I can only erm believe what she says because I have no other proof . Oh yeah, I agree , but I mean why don't erm why don't you say sort of we're not satisfied and advertise or. Yes, this is what I've been trying to avoid because I don't want the bother of advertising and interviewing somebody else. Right. I mean it is a bind, and, and it isn't very pleasant given somebody the sack either. No. Erm, so this is what I've been trying to avoid, I must be honest about it. Yeah. Erm, the the other things is a little while ago she was erm, er, er you know, giving me bills like for about five or six pounds once for cleaning materials, and I queried this, because it's quite a lot of money and erm, so she tells me that she buys expensive erm bleach and she uses a bottle of that a week, well she only comes in three times, and I said well, that's very extravagant I said and told her what, but since I told her that. The disaster, what other emergencies that they might harmful effects to the environment Right, now can you think of a particular example of where that has happened fairly recently, Alison? Erm, the Rio hurricane The hurricane, yes and you, were you there? so do you know anything about it in particular? Well it's not just that it destroyed and what's, what's happened since, do you know what's happened since? Well, erm, of course it took them quite a while that the people I thought he flew down there to actually offering aid or whatever, and what's, what's he done then since that week, has he actually He's ceased fire He really is yes because you see once it's gone out of the news, erm, we don't hear any more about it, the, the immediate distress of the people isn't obvious Yeah because of the that's going to be long term then isn't it the water Yeah How far is in, in order to help, do you know? A couple of hours Right, and how big this will be, bigger than our pack full is it? that's brilliant, yes. Tom can you think of another match got anything to say about this one? In, in Russia when we had that, that Yes that er nuclear, nuclear yes it's Chernobyl, he was looking for the real word there, a nuclear what? A nuclear power station Alright, no, but the actual ray of the, of the plant, the nuclear reactor, right what, what happened? Do you remember what happened then? Well the, the that's right It's still, they, they can't afford to shut it down but should they shut down cos it's very, a lot of the works safety standard. Yes, what's a good word for a safety standard becoming an make certain that it's safe. What happened to the surrounding area, don't you know? yes and yes, er those that were willing to go Yes they made the area around the reactor a non living area, the problem is of course people that have lived there for a long time don't want to move and so over intended to stay, because the immediate reaction to something like that happening isn't necessarily erm, all bad, I mean people are quite glad that they are still alive and they're quite prepared to put up with the possible fallout of the consequences of that so that they can stay in their own homes. The reactions after Hiroshima, er when the bombed had dropped were erm, somewhat strange, people with documentation say that people even though they were injured didn't actually want to move away from their home early, erm, and so that possibly the same sort of thing happened in Chernobyl. What about letting the rest of the world know, did Chernobyl have any effect on, on the rest of the world with that explosion? Damage anywhere else right, if so what happened to that then? and, erm acid rain Well that's slightly prospect, yes, there's something else. What would the world do erm to find out how much damage Chernobyl had done? Well then did we all just sit there and say well you know don't rot there's nuclear sort of fallout and er oh dear erm what we going to do about it and decide should we get on onto it They did put over and see how much there was and what could we do about it They actually did send teams of people erm, nuclear scientists to Chernobyl to try and get just how much damage was being caused and going on being caused, but there was, I think you probably don't remember because it went right by hurricane has gone out of the news now, once something like that has happened there's always another disaster coming behind that actually takes over the headlines, so, about six months, a year, two years afterwards they were still finding that in parts of Europe the general level of nuclear activity was higher than it had been before Chernobyl, why would that happen? Erm Welsh Wales, in Wales and in the Lake District they found that the er level of nuclear activity on the surface of, of the field as it were and therefore reached the animals is higher than it has been, how would they manage to do that? Well if doing an explosion I'm not really sure the nuclear reactor materials Right put into the clouds The atmosphere and in the atmosphere and they would be blown over That's right Yes exactly, the Government with the er man with no in the world Right and it was because of, of a nuclear explosion right and all the sheep had died and Yeah, and what did you get you see, you get mutations going on in plants so that you get at the moment when the plants themselves are altered, it doesn't necessary, necessary mean that they're killed off, it doesn't necessary mean that they are killed off, it means that the actual genes alter, that they go on breathing so you get ginormous sort of cabbages, you know, cabbages that'll normally be about that size, suddenly become that size that they're the biggest in the world Now why? I'm not sure, but I, I no well that in itself that's not another problem but er, the cabbages is like, is huge and Mm like twenty Where, why might it be that if, if we're actually talking about this mutation and things have changed it? How do they test nuclear weapons for instance? Well not, not to, no, no they, they test that for but they actually have controlled explosions and what sort of places would they need for those? In the desert Yeah not in the middle of Manchester or London or wherever they use they use er, a very sort of sparse unpopulated area obviously and so you do get erm plants and animals having to, well change it so that they, er you take as it were that the genes changed, some does mutation probably alright, some probably not. Wasn't it that the Australians who, who about twenty odd years ago had Britain test all of their erm nuclear weapons Yeah Mhm in er sort of Scarborough that's right yes and it used to be Christmas Islands where, where literally they, they did the first of nuclear protection and the people that were involved in doing that have actually mutated themselves in as much as it seems to be that which is a mutation itself actually is more is course it is, have been associated with nuclear activity. Right, can we leave that one then, the other one that I, I thought about is probably an oil disaster, here we have an oil tanker, what was that one off the, the north of America, do you remember where it was? Yes that's right, and what happened to that? Yes an enormous amount of oil and what was Well all like fishes and they would destroy them and yeah And the, the animal life that was destroyed there, in fact that amazing picture of the oil slick that looked liked the sea, remember it Yes Yeah and said that it in the same sort of way, salt water there was a kind of to the whole thing, can you remember it? Yeah I mean it was in a sense beautiful, but really okay can, er Nicholas go ahead and read number nineteen please States shall provide prior and time timely notification and relevant information to potentially affected States on activities that may have a significant adverse trans transboundary Transboundary environmental effect and shall consult with those States at an early stage and in good faith Right what do you think it means? Now take it sentence by sentence, what about the first one? I don't know whether if you think there's going to be a nuclear fallout and you have to inform all the other countries in Europe and the world or whatever If we were talking about testing weapons or if we were talking about testing new equipment which involves that then you would other states as a country and inform other people, what about the next bit? Take the last phrase at an early stage and in good faith country in Europe so they think they're going to be testing their weapons and for the tell the rest of Europe that they Yes, you've got to have an agreement haven't they? And so that and, and this is how erm states, countries actually learn to get on together and trust each other. The underpinning thing is it for is that er we learn, we learn terribly slowly to actually trust each other rather than be enemies. Can you do the next one James please, thank you. Women have a vital role in environmental management and development. Their full participation is therefore essential to achieve sustainable development Right, that's a very one isn't it? Yes Right,Women have a vital role in environmental management and development Well it shouldn't just be men, men, you know, it should be women as well. You can get in there and er children will grow up Right, now what do we call when you say doing it, what do you actually mean? Erm, helping to clear up what up all the time? Well erm, it's sort of that erm, there should be, there, there are a chair, they are a chair of women that erm, that still knows the chairman Yeah and called the chair person Yes, so we put, we, we will be becoming politically, politically correct, yeah We shouldn't erm offered more sort of more If we actually, very quickly, which round the world was meant to be, erm, those of you which are familiar with other countries, what about women in, say America, Ashley, are, are they, do they participate in the same way as they do here? For instance you've got a, you've got er staff here, half of them are women, would that be the same situation in schools in there? No, probably more than that really Right, why would you say that? I can't, I can remember having a games teacher Being, being a man and, and the rest, but then he would be wouldn't you, and women are naturally alongside young mature has anyone got any comment on that, do you think that it's, a, a sensible thing to happen or do you think men ought to be infants' teachers. Well er, at our school it's just like that and then, then three or four years into the school Yes be a games teacher and all that Yeah, you don't know my still in, in one way, in European and North American situations women do seem to have the same sort of job opportunities as men do what about somewhere like Africa what about the West Coast of Africa, we talked about Nigeria and West Africa quite a lot, what about women involved in there? Erm, erm Anybody idea of what, what that is? Or and, erm they sort of work and most of it, some of them walk, sometimes walk ten miles just to get two bottles of water Yeah So you're gonna go and live there Tom erm, yes, when I, when I was living in, in Nigeria the women were the one that, at the lower end of society, they were the ones that lived they were the ones that organized the mini markets, run the town, they, they would have a minimal allowance of vegetables or meat or whatever to sell, it was the women that did the bartering, it was the women that actually got enough money to feed the family and, and the men were really quite an lot, they, they thought that lot was set below them, that the women had to sort that side of things out and they erm really set a great put in a great deal of their time erm going to work and that could be working for er a European or an American right, er some sort of help in the house, or in the garden or whatever, so you had the men doing the same sort of tasks the housework as it were for Europeans and Americans and the women looking after the, the economic development of that little do you see, completely different to work, I mean I tried to imagine my husband, me coming in here to work and he going to erm the little sort of erm the maid in was actually, it isn't right, it doesn't feel right, does it? Cultures are different, what about India? What happens there? Any idea there? Erm I think it depends what members of society we're talking about, right, if people are educated and they have a way forward to improve their understanding, then they become less and less involved with a day to day tasks, right. Here when they're talking about women, I think James was right, women do have a vital role at the beginning in all cultures, what I'm trying to say is that they have a vital role increasingly as they become more and more educated too. Nick. I think in India anyway, I think there's more of the man that do the work because the women, or the men makes the women stay at home, and sort of, sort of make themselves look very beautiful and How do they do that? and, and bring the children up very well, become great business men and women I think of it when we make these great generalizations that is they do all sorts of combinations of things in India combined to make their lifestyle different but they would, some people in if you're rich enough, if you have the wife that you want and you've got the children that you want and you've got enough money, then you can live that sort of lifestyle, if you were obviously quite er you may never of had a house at all and yet you still got your family a different lifestyle in fact. We're going to go, go around actually looking varied situations in which that sort of lifestyle as possible, but the absolute opposite happens within the same city as well. Could we just go on to twenty one and we might just sort of stop this part of the lesson there. Could you erm read that for us erm Adrian would you Which one? Twenty one The creativity, ideals and courage of the youth of the world should be mobilized to forge a global partnership in order to achieve sustainable development and ensure a better future for all Right, that was a very big statement, the youth of the world and you happen to be the youth of the world, there's a lot of you, so how, there you are, you're in charge of the world, how are you going to do just that? The creativity, has anyone got a definition of creativity? prospect of, of they're not too many people, over population for our supply of toxic fumes, oil, gas and coal, they might run out so creativity is the erm inventing finding out the right, good, right, now what about the ideals that you, what ideals have you actually got? Come on you've got to live somehow or other good, right, now what do you mean by a good life? Well you see things, go places have like out in the car or around So I have the going to do anything to anybody else? Well Adrian what's, what's your comments, serious comments on that? I don't know, on what? On having ideals, like as you grow older, I mean you're quite an ancient person already, within the next ten years you'll have to choose the sort of lifestyle you want and you really have to choose as well whether you're going to involve other people in it for good or for have you thought about it at all? No Can you think about it just off the top of your head? Don't know. How do you see yourself, you've, you've actually left you've got yourself around the what's going to happen next. Your own team, you've got three A levels and they're all ace, what you gonna do? Erm Go to Oxford Yeah Go to Oxford, yeah, right, what you going to study when you get there? I haven't thought about that What are you particularly good at? Erm I'm alright at maths You're alright at maths, so it looks as if maths might as a scientist possibly might be there you are, you're, you've got your first class honour degree, you're going to do your P H D Right and er Adrian, Doctor Adrian has just got his er ticket for life, now are you going to do anything, er can you imagine what you might like to work at? No You have a little think about it, I'll come back to you in a minute, Anthony Well I'm gonna be a lawyer You're gonna be a lawyer? Yes Right, and how is that going to help the world by Anthony being a lawyer Erm to stop too many criminals, be safe, and innocent people right, so there's your loyalist family are you going to work in there or are you going to work in No you're going to work in there, you've just been given a, your, your standard value which is gross, thousand and thousand of dollars, now how are you going to spend that money that you've got for bearing in mind your lifestyle is finished, bearing in mind what the sort of thing your father is doing, erm, where, where are you gonna live? tell us about being well, erm, I put a majority of erm I'm not sure, you can get, can get in a big office Right and then right, and are you, what sort of fee are you going to charge us? would it depend on the circumstances of your client? Yeah Okay, there was a little bit of doubt in there there you are, you are an idealistic person Ha you're a great expense in English and also in where, where you got to eighteen, chosen your A levels, you've just finished your A level, you got your results and the best way, they go to what? all As and what subjects are they going to be in? Are they going to be the ones you er like and that means the ones, those are the ones that you do well Erm, a scientist erm and then you, after you've you've got your degree, what you gonna do? Bearing in mind this is the world's question here I am world, what's the attitude to the world going to be? Er, I'll certainly pull a few changes and yes so I'll have to think of someone that may need, need help in better, better changes for the right yeah I think what, what has happened at the moment is that he would be almost helpless because there are so many things that are wrong with the world that it seems to be because we get so much information as a if you watch the news, watch the nine o'clock news tonight and try and sift out how many things you could put into a negative pile and how many you could put into a positive pile and I think that you would find that the negative pile seventy five per cent way up, now there's something in the human spirit that actually says I would like to change that, but we really don't want the children to die in Somalia do we? We don't want the children from Columbia on the streets etcetera, because there's sort of an awful helplessness about us, because we think we're doing one person, how on earth can we actually do anything, you see if enough people think together that if possible the change happens, then it can happen, right, and you are actually the ones that are going to have to be considering that you are a world's visitor, you are not just Tom and you're not just Anthony right, erm, you've really got to think, what about Jayne, there you are ideal Jayne right and I'm not really sure about what about your life, do you see yourself just really do you think that's the sort of thing you'll like? Erm, that's yes so you think that Yeah I don't really mind no I know it's a bit early erm, but it's not too early to start thinking that you are a world citizen, you're not just Jayne and you've got a contribution to make, because if you've got this opinion that you've got this you're not just giving it just to James. What about you Adrian now, have we got you into any, any particular situation, are you going to follow dad's footsteps do you think? Well, erm yes yes are we saying that that's us? Yeah I mean would you like to, I mean dad works from home doesn't he, he has link ups with London but he's basically got all his equipment at home. Do you see yourself having the same sort of lifestyle now like James No I couldn't, too complicated Right, you don't think you couldn't, you're not at I don't, I don't think I'd be able to put things together Right or in, in this case right, but on the other hand it's early days yet. What about your involvement with anything that might help the world yes that might be very useful as long as you didn't er right, well we've not got very far erm, what I wanted to do with you next week is going to go immediately onto this programme, which I promise I'd let you see, and the first one is actually funnily enough it's er you get film of erm a Third World where the population is far in excess as the and you then get more film at a modern somewhere in Mexico, the central part of it where it's still falling to bits and Okay, right, good morning to you. Ah. Can you er can you tell me wh wh wh where you were born Mr ? Yes in a little street it's not there now, down here called Street. There were seven houses there. And only yards and horses stables and things round there you know, in them days. Then we come in here it was a repaired house this was. This street here, in nineteen what wa nineteen eight I think. Aye. Yes it was. Aye. H how h h h h how many were in your family then? Well in this house? Yeah. Well my mother had six children but the first baby died and we ere there was another five. I think, there's only two of us alive now. I've got a sister in er Colwyn Bay somewhere she'd living yes. Aye and last time I seen her was about five years ago. And the children's coming here aye,. Ah all these, there was no yar houses across the road there. There were yards of slate here to there. That's on the other side of Yes. of Street here. Yes. What did your what did your father did did did he do then? He worked in but he used to go and relieve the sailors and firemen in the steam boats he used to go you know. When they were needed one. You know the man in charge of them was they called him, always used to go and fetch him to go if they needed er or somebody lost their passes and . Er and I went there as a boy after engines and things you know, in then, do you remember them? No, steam engines shuntings. They were coming down from the Quarry, bigger engines. They were a little bigger than this the ones they had shunting here. There was two of them and they used to go all day at the quarry for to get bring the slates down to . H how how old were you wh when you started? Fourteen. Mm. Yeah. Well yes. I'm supposed just to answer you, that's all isn't it. Well no you No you you say anything that you want to add, that will you know fill in all the gaps. Aye fourteen I was. I think I'd been Yes a few weeks couple of three weeks perhaps in the slate yard behind there, they used to make slates for schools there. Oh there was about two dozen boys and a lot of men there, there was about a hundred working in that place then. Yeah. And then before that boys used to go and gather cockles in the sand outside er not here, other side of you know. And bloody things here the whole time, these cockles were everywhere they were we liked them, the boys did, aye. Ah. And there's only me living you know . I got er a nephew living in Leicester. Arnold his name is. And he comes here sometimes. And then I just go about myself all day. Perhaps to the beach here, or passing the time . Cos I had you see.. Wh when you started working as a lad, erm what did you have to do? when I went to you mean? Yes. Before that other place. That p Oh I was doing nothing there only tidying up round there. If a ship had been there loading, well there was a couple of us boys used to tidy up after er after the and things on there see. And we used to tidy up things like that. Er we didn't do much . Cos there were we were only getting about five bob a week aye. Aye. And then er like like that. And er I joined this territorials they come and then I joined them, and we went to Camp Parkgate for a fortnight. We were we hadn't been home a couple of two or three weeks then the big war started, nineteen fourteen. Fourth of August so we had to go see. We were belonging to the territorials then. And then we had to go straight away there and we went different places, Northampton,s you know different places in the country like, in England. And and in Wales yeah we forget where we were there. But we went to had a lot of joi jointer then joiners men. And we had to go to France then. Er Belgium and France where I was in we were in . And we had n old naval guns. Old naval guns. Their muzzle was a long as from here to that door there. About Yes. From here to that door. About eight feet long? Yes. The muzzle were they had nothing else you see. They wouldn't give us . I was a bugler, trumpeter with them. There was two of us on horses then, there was no motors then you know. No, only horses, horses dragging these big guns. About six horses on them. In each gun, four of them. Yeah and then the horses used to go down out to the line see. Well the Germans was shelling and these B things but we had sixty pounder guns then. They were very short muzzle things, but them old things there like that, they were jumping when you were firing them you know. They were yeah. What w what was it like when you you first w w went over there, I mean having been here in in and then all of sudden finding yourself in France ? Ah we feel oh we were we enjoyed ourselves there. That's all I can remember ever. Yeah. But I come home, well in the end. lots more lads were killed do you see, lots of them eh? Well there was thousands killed see the infantry was and there were loads more all round you see ? Yeah. And all the country there then, well France we were first, then we shifted to Belgium. Nothing, only and mud and dirt and everything else. And walking about up to here some of the times in mud. And we had on these shoes you know. Boots I mean t you know. Yes. . And the first trench we went in, the communication trench was . Was it? Aye we was shifted about then, different places yeah. And er I had a touch of a there was a gas shells dropped somewhere quite not far from me. And I had a snuff of that then I wasn't right for a while. I went down to Boulogne to an hospital there. got better they sent me back. . Aye. . Course my best friends were killed there. A m A man named Harold from , and while I was in that hospital with that bit of a gas shell, he er he g fellow came and told me there, to Boulogne that he was dead, killed. Aye never they never seen him after. A lot of them getting killed there. But I was lucky . I remember when after it finished, I went back to for a while I went with ports and things like. To different ships aye. Belonging to Liverpool and them places like that. And travelling round Ireland, travelling round Ireland all all round it, Cork all round with slates from here. Yes. The a good life you know. And sometimes used to get a bit of a a bad storm ahead so we used to especially if you went from here to er North of Scotland round Cape . in bad weather we used to go into what was it they called Long Hope or something and anchor there. Er well there'd be a lot of us ships there then. About a dozen there. But we couldn't go ashore until it got better ad then we went round the cape after and down into Aberdeen see. That's what we used to do with these ships. Aye. Aye got to Bangor there and my father's photo's on that . Is he? Aye. Have you got them here. No I they're in the archive Aye my father's leaning on the bridge like that . I have to I h I when I get to the office, I'll h I'll h I'll have a look a bit closer. Yes, you can see him. The like that. Yeah. On a bridge, it's like this wasn't it. Bangor her name was. There was another ship the same as her called the and another one called the Harrier. They had a few ships. They , you heard of her? I've heard of her shelling ship she was. Yes. Well my brother was with went with that one once a boy As a boy. But I took him first to Connor's Quay to join a sh erm ship there. I forget her name. Well anyhow when we went there, I told er the captain like. Well what do you want? he says to me. Well I've been sent from Bangor. There was a sailing er what do they call it, a here and it was him that he asked would could you send a boy there. So I took my brother who was younger than me, about four or five years see. The first ship he went in, he was for about two years. And then he left her and he went with this three masted top schooner she was, very fine ship. Aye. And then I don't know where he went after of course. I went different places . I landed in the end me, on the railway. Bangor here. Did you ? Aye. Yes well we I I'd been working on the Menai Suspension Bridge repa you know, when they were rep doing the repairing like. I went there and asked the fella for a job, and he says, How are you on heights? he says. Oh I'm alright, I says to him, I've been in ships and . Alright you can start, he says to me. And I were I was doing the job there th that's how I started on working on shore. And er of course that job finished then. And er I had a brother in law on the railway there. So he told me to go and ask for a job there. I went I forget er No I don't forget the name of the foreman. Jack his name was anyhow. A bit of a rough chap you know, nice but very rough . What have you been doing before, he says to me. I told him I worked on the Menai Suspension Bridge. Oh you're on yes, go on, start tomorrow morning he says to me, with Fighting Mack. There was a fella called Fighting Mack there. You start with Fighting mack, in the tube there tomorrow. And that's how I worked there. er and then I think Oh I was there for about two years after You so s so you worked in I worked there two years after my time. After er sixty five you know. Yeah. And then I'd er aft finished then and miserable around here aye and in the town I used to get a job here and there. Th then you know from someone or or other. Well now anyhow I there's only me here and I er was ninety three last birthday. Last September. Yeah I was born in eighteen ninety two see. I think I'm the oldest one round here. Yes I think you are. Yeah I think so too. I think so. Aye cos I remember a lot of old people here. A lot of old sailors you know er in them days, when I was a kid aye. W were there w was there a great seafaring Ships sailing ships there were, haven't you seen the picture of them sailing ships. I've seen photographs but it's, to have people who were actually there is quite rare really. Well the ships were there, there was no steamboats in them days you know. w er only sailing boats and they used to be anchored here years ago, down on the beach there. And they used to call on when they were giving the turns to go there and load. My father was working loading there. Er Were a lot of people employed o on them er fo from ? Pardon? Oh Yes yes, you know, five and six in some small schooners yes. But in the was ten I think. They she belonged to she was iron ship she was to . Yes. And she used to run from here to Hamburg and London. With slates and about nine crew on her. Nice ship she was too. My brother was with her for a long while. Oh he was a proper sailor, different to me you see. What's the difference? Well er he started right. Started as a boy he did. I and I took to Connor's Quay as a sailing ship and I and then of course I hadn't been much in sailing ships. I used to work as a boy I did on . And then when I got er old enough I used to go in the gang like the men, and er get the same and piece work we were working loading the ships. Loading the barrels. And wheeling them to the ship you know, then after you'd been there a long time, well my father was a down below and I went to his shop then you see. That's how we learnt. So in the ship was a a nice thing you know. Cos slates you know going and rolling round and jumping . Because they w they weren't shifting do you see. But there's a funny thing, I was lucky in there. I was with Pamela, she come up, new ship you know then. And I was with her till I left her somewhere in Southampton, I'd been in her a good while too. Somebody pinched something off me so, Bugger all this, I said, I left her there. And come home here. Well I went to in oh about twelve months after that or less say, and er she wanted a man there, I went down there and asked could I have a job back you know. Well he was just too late, he says, there's a fellow from Oh never mind, maybe a chance again. She was lost all hands aboard. . In about a fortnight after it. Aye. Good good. And she was a new ship too, aye. She had a bad cargo see, they hadn't er some stuff and they hadn't stored her properly and she turned over and they all got drowned. There was one chap with her, he'd been in oh for years. And his ship was called . He was from and he'd been out of work a long time. Willy, his name was, I remember him well. he got lost and drowned with her. He was from . And and Aye, I'm lucky you see. Yes. Well I'm not to brag too much I I've been lucky haven't I? Very lucky. Aye. Yes aye. And er this is what I do, Well I used to do jobs round here for a while or I've chucked it up now aye. I don't get nothing . cos I worked two years all the time I had a few bob for that extra that's all. Cos I can't get to what you call this a thing now, social security. The the guy can't get that cos I had a few shillings more after working two years . Oh I see. Aye. That's not fair r really is it. No well that's the way the country's doing now isn't it. I don't think anybody works overtime now do they, over their age? Very rarely. Aye I should think so, unless they're working for themselves right. There is some fella he's working in his back yard and he's hammering all day, I I wish he'd give it up . But he's not out there today either, he started this morning, I can't hear him now. Ah. You said that erm or you implied that it was important to stow the c the erm slates v v very carefully . Oh Oh yes. You had to store them. There was what they called gangs you see, you know they had planks didn't they. Have you ever seen them ? I've seen photographs. . And they used to Two men on the shore loading, course there was men counting the slates do you see. There was thousands and thousands. And er then th one man used to load the barrel, and the other man was to put them down the plank. And of course there was people from the town then getting a job like holding like this and fella on the stage you see, they weren't regular men, but they were getting a job and so much for doing it yes, just the same. But the the regular men were getting more money than but er And then there used to be men down there, storing the slate, regular men on the outside, my father was one of them. Say if there was eight gangs, there would be eight eight of them there, and eight of them here. Aye. Storing them. Packing them up nice you know and chocking them tight so as they wouldn't shift you see, when the ship was rolling. When er w each gang, would they negotiate the er the bargain individually or would they be paid Would every gang be paid a f a flat rate. A flat piece rate . The the regular men were er mates sharing together you see. I see. But the others that was getting a job from the town, Mhm. were getting the money what it was worth . Sometimes be more or less. used to be about few p er shillings more do you see, er a tonne yes. Aye. Were erm only certain men allowed or er say were trusted with the job of stowing Oh they were regular men. Oh yes, they were regular men. Yes the others were only hobblers they called them. Hobblers? Aye you know, holding them on the plank and th passing them to the But the the men that were stowing them, they were regular men on the They knew how to do it see. And they used to pack them up so nice and tight till they were full up inside . And then they didn't shift at all see. No. When you started on that gang,wh wh wh what did you start as then? Did you start as Oh I started as a boy. Yeah. Er on the doing small jobs on the quay there like you know, cleaning up and things like that. After a ship . But when I got older,well I was getting the same pay as the regular men then. Piece work you know. But the war come and . And I was six years or something away. Er Six years? Oh aye all through the war. on August the fourth nineteen fourteen. Fourth I had to go from here. My mother was sitting here on a chair yeah, when I come home from there. Oh Dick, she says to me, she called she called me Dick and I used to tease her. I thought I used to I used to say to her sometimes I'll have to go off story. Dick she used to call me. I thought you named me Richard? Well I have, Dick. she says. Yeah. Every time she said that, I used to tease her then. Aye aye . But I remember once going er to school. Now you go to school, the school there. Well I was no bigger than this like and er go to school straight away Dick. Alright mama, I used to say to her. after been down there. And to I went along that beach in them days you know th and straight to the sea, playing with some wood. Somebody had been her, fetching me to see that I was playing truant,landed in school. Well I could see a woman coming along the beach there, it was high up and down there. Well this woman is coming like the devil if ever she is. tell it was my mother. And she got hold of me by the neck like th I told you to go to school didn't I. She says, Look me right . And hammered on the door so one of the teache and it was the class where I was too happened to be by the door there. And she says, Here you are, here he is. And do what you like with him she says. And that's where I was aye. I didn't play truant after that. No I'm not surprised. No. Yeah. Aye aye. The you said, that you were away for six years. Er in the war? Yes. Oh yes yes. Did any of them the lads that you the men that you went away with. Did they come back? Not all. Not all of them? Oh no. Were any of them . there's a couple of my best friends Mm. er Well the one that best was, he used to he was older than me but and er I was very sorry. I went I said gas shell drop close to me and that that gave me a bit of a right to go an d to the hospital. Well I didn't quite to the hospital. I went to Oh that's eleven o'clock that is. Ah. It's a bit fast I think . Isn't it? I think it is yes. Yes about five minutes fast. Yes. . Aye er the when I was I got better and I got down to and there was a fella come to look and see me. Well she says, Gentleman wants to see you. She says,and I said, No . So he come then and he told me that that best friend of mine was killed. He lived down the road there. Did did you find it d er difficult t t to believe when you were told? Well I could see him all the time see. Mm. You know in in the hospital I could s see him in my face all the time. Yeah. And it was . That's a long time ago isn't it. Yes it is. Aye. R it is. Nineteen eighteen was it when they finished I think, yes. Mm Nineteen fourteen, fourth of August we went from here. When you went e when you went away, what did you think you were going into then? Because you were only a young lad weren't you . Yeah. Well er I didn't we didn't know. Er to tell you the truth. We used to laugh and everything together, going from Bangor here. And going to England one place we didn't enough do you see, so we were going Then we went to Northampton and different places like that, shifting about for a while. To get enough Yeah. So you were Cos there was different er things do you see, infantry, Royal Welsh and things like that, they were going the same as us. Looking for men, aye to go. Ah. Till there was no c no man er after eighteen round here then er in them days you know. No. And we never used to we were about three times home in that er five years time. And many didn't come no. Oh. What was it like I wo what you didn't like to pass anybody Mm. m er mother of one of them that was killed you see. No? No I cou You'd go round the other street wouldn't you. Ah. Wh wh wh why was that? Oh you didn't like to see them, they'd only come and cry to you. Aye. W was it also because there were so many of them. Oh there were many of them killed you see. Yes. Thousands wasn't it. the country all well hundreds and hundreds from here. Yeah. From ? Yes well from as many boys that had seen the age, they had to go. like them do you see, the this side, them people they were volunteers, proper volunteers do you see, they were. But they after they had finished, they the South African war and things was before then wasn't it. Yes. Well I remember the South African war too. Cos I had an uncle there. And my grandmother used to live on the beach there. In a house facing there and her son was one of then Caernarfon er what do you call them er militia like and they had to go talking with me and a little One of the first little motor cars like this. Not an open thing you know, little bus like aye. And he was er from it was Jack I remember him well, an old man. Driving this, he used to go on the by the by the clock you know in them days, the first motor . Aye. And he come there, and who was it come home from Africa, but my uncle, my mother's son Hello David, you've come home Davey, she says, you've come home. Yes, he says. From South Africa? Aye. South Africa war he was . Well I remember the South African war . Aye. this and that then the old women used to go to the door,shilling . And look this grate here's the same thing now as it was in nineteen O eight and I make a fire in it everyday but I haven't made it today. I I was nearly doing it too. Yeah This is the original look at it. Nineteen O eight put the match in there and have the coal and the wood is in there ready. Oh I see. it is. But in them days do you see, we had er a kettle here and a kettle there but we don't bother with now. I've got a gas stove in the back there. Would this get hot here? Yea oh yes the kettle'd be there. Yes. And another one here. Yes. Hot my mother used to call it she was English, she was er Cockney born but she come to Bangor when she was eight years ten years of age. Working in the with some people from er she was adopted because she w lost her mother and father. So these women were coming Well they were man and wife aye from London Tottenham Court she lived. She was born. And brought her to with them see and then she stayed here she never went out of here then. Oh and they were working in the there where that job centre is now it was a big pub. You know. Was it? That's where the women come see. F the people come from London to that. Ah it was a big pub. I forget it's na the name of it. got it somewhere in this house but I've told some chap,a bit of a Welsh there er I said, Now but it was Welsh there... I don't speak Welsh. No no that's . That's what we say . We still say that that's what the Frenchmen used to say it in French aye. Pas beaucoup er n non compris I don't understand. Mm. But say that still . Aye aye can't help it now. Stuck in you somehow. Oh aye yeah. What was it er when your mother erm sort of lived here,di di did she learn to speak your Welsh? No she didn't er bother. No? No. No she didn't bother. Er but there was er She come here with them people and the they kept that big and they forget and after they had died and they she went across the road to the the this here now. A here now. And they want to put that out they do. Aye er this there. But then she got married and we lived down the road there for a while till they repaired these, they made these There was very old houses these are. This site here barring them two in the top there. The two on this side, they started to build them there see, renew them. But the wa war broke out and they just made these up. But this is the largest of them this house. Is it? Yes. Didn't you see the kitchen eh? I I was very surprised when I came in, it's enormous isn't it? Yes. There's you can put four double beds in the front room. There is for this er my sister here, she was after my mother died and everything like that. But she was there and you know, she wants something here and wants it there too. Do as you like, I says, I didn't bother myself aye. And then she was buying furniture and things like that is here too somewhere. Aye and the younger she was. Aye there she is. Perha perhaps you'd know her. And here she is older there, look, in the town. Oh. Aye. And Yes. She's younger still here. I had three sisters you know. But the two the one the eldest is dead and the youngest see. But I've got one living in Colwyn Bay. Yeah. Mm. Ho how old is she? She's about three years younger than I. Gosh. Yeah. And the children are alive too. Mm. Thank you. Er there's only er old people from here would know them see. And she used to do all the messages like that after my mother died see. Ah. How er h when did your m m m mother die then? Ho Oh I've no idea. Af after the First World War. Yeah. Mm. she was eighty. Forget that, eighty she was. Course she'd been working hard well er not working hard you know just in the cleaning like that. Course all young w women used to go and skivvy as they called them didn't they. Used to go ski er cleaning and that's where they used to work, but now they go to shops don't they. Aye. There was seven shops in this little place here. There's none here now. Only that now that's what they sell things there th they've started there. On the beach there, there's a shop there now. But there were seven in all these streets here and we never used they never used to go to town. We never used to go Here we used to be and on the beach there. What did they sell, these er shops? Oh er everything you know, meat and there was one shop down the bottom of the street here, my mother come here one morning, she used to get meat there. And er oh she says to m She couldn't didn't speak Welsh but she told what the old man told her in that shop there. He says there's er that I e I haven't got a chicken for you today, a kitchen for you today. Instead of saying chicken, he says, I haven't got a kitchen for you. Aye. And that old man I'm telling you the God's truth, I watched him when I was coming school many a time, used to go to Anglesey with a rope in his pocket here. And buy a sheep and come home with it and that over the bridge with it, all along and along er that road there and th and when we used to come from that school in , he used to be coming with a sheep on the string like this and the poor thing, I used to look at the old sheep and he often used to be tired you see. And he'd go like this with his knee you know,that's how she was shifted . To here. And he ki he was killing them in the back yard there. Yes. But he was a proper butcher. He was cutting it proper shapes you know like they are today . But he was a proper But it was in his back yard, he was killing it and hanging it up in the window there. In the bottom of the street there. Yeah. the old houses them aye. Yeah. Er that I remember come in laughing saying that he had no kitchen for him for her. . I laughed We used to have a laugh about that very often. Aye. It was .. Apart from the b b butcher's shop. Er wh wh wh what other shops were there? Oh they was er selling everything, potatoes and er carrots and things like that you know. About seven of them, but they were in different places. But there was one shop up the road there, er it was n the Welsh names they were or most you see. And there'd been like a half door going to the shop like there you know. But behind that t the bottom half I still remember it though, and when we opened that . And then the old man might be in the back yard somewhere and he could here that the bell going . It was a big as this. . Ah. What almost a foot? Yes. A big bell like that. Good heavens. Aye. Enough to make anyone jump isn't it? Oh yeah. . Well he was selling swedes, everything, potatoes, carrots and things like that . I my day tell you, I don't thing there was many shops with a tin in the sh in the window. They were all in But the tinned stuff, everywhere now isn't it. But it wasn't then. No. . All in er at the counter or in er boxes or in casks like this. Everything like that then. But now er in tins. And people were saying in them days,won't live long now. Will tins. So the old people are saying, and we were wondering as children like yes, Why Oh it's all tinned stuff now. Aye it's no good. cos they used to have and a big handled my mother had sa saucepan and as big as this. Like that. Yes. And a big handle sticking up here. Full of scouse. Ah scouse. Scouse. Yeah. Everything in it you know. Ah lovely stuff eh? You don't get them today like that. I makes them myself in the back yard there I do it. Do you? Aye. How? Sorry. Meat, potatoes well er mostly t s turnips you know. we er swede they call the other isn't it? Carrots and meat and good stuff, and then they used to put a little flour to thicken it like this do you see, with a big spoon like that. and pulled this out like that. Well they say it'll come out like that see. Mm. Everybody w looking but when my father and all was there, there was nine then so there was more so we had to go in th in that big room there and eat off the table there then. Cos All of you? Yes. Aye. Aye. oh my mother was a strong woman, yes and good cook too. But she'd learnt a job in That's what she was doing you see, in the . W she she came from erm She come from London, here a young girl. She'd lost her parents. Yeah. And er her father and mother died, but she lived till she was eighty. And she come here with these people from London, she had a good place with them, plenty of good food and everything. In that there, where that job centre is now. And then across the road she went afterwards, to that there, She had a lovely time there. Cos working men didn't go in there,th in them days you know, into that small . All er p er people in big high jobs. Aye. Right. But now, every Dick, Tom and Harry goes in that little there now. Yes. Well they didn't in them days. They didn't hardly go when I was going. I was started to go there. . Yeah. Only I went away to work then aye and er wasn't coming home very often. W What w what did your mother think of here? Having sort of c c come into an area which was Welsh speaking? Well she come with the people, English from London and then with them in that there . Mm. That's where she was. Mm. It must have been a bit of a shock to her . She she was young. Mm. Ten years of age she was. Only ten? Ten yes. But she never spoke Welsh. But I think she understood us and acquired talking to ourselves in Welsh you know. Yeah. Oh yes, she she knew what cos we could see it by her face. . Aye. Aye . And I remember her father coming here from . Young and he married some g young girl from here you know. Aye. You remember that do you? Yeah. Oh yeah. When you came can I just sort of take you back again? When you came back Aye you ask me what what you want to know. And then I Well it's no use me telling me because they're no good to you are they them? No I don't No that that puts flesh on the bones. Oh aye yeah yeah. Yeah. When you came back from away after the war,d did you notice any any changes here? Yes er the missing of the old friends you know, to start with yes. Mm. Er and hardly nothing to do here. But er I was going back to my own job you see, and then I went to see if the And then I I don't know what happened. There was something er Oh well I went away again somewhere. and then I went on the railway. A little The reason why I went there, my brother was living two or three here. And he said says to me, I can get you a job on the rai railway, he says to me. You see so I went went there and that's how I got there. Well I'd been on the Menai Suspension Bridge before. Aye they were repairing it then. We had to go up heights then didn't we. Aye. What did you used to do on the on the bridge then? Oh well I say there was fitters, I used to h er be handy with them. And lifting the heavy things and things, yeah. Oh it was heavy but I was used to heavy stuff on . Cos er when you're loading a ship you're you're handling yourself about twenty tonnes before dinner. With your hands like this. Loading the barrow with twenty tonnes. And and wheeling it so far like that. And then the other fella will take it to the plank. Yeah. To put them down. And he'd have to put that I remember one man that was counting like this, he used to count them by the three you know. There was two or three men that did like. Of course they knew and they had a pin in o in their hand to stick every hundred like that see. Counting three like that. Thousands was in no time, they'd count tonnes. And I put one morning,s seven tonnes before dinner in. Aye. Who was responsible for for calculating the number of slates then? Oh there was a they had er er th er counters they called them. But we called them in Welsh do you see. They say there was oh half a dozen counters there you know. But there was one man m in er in you see them little red huts that's on ? He was there. He he knew how much every ship carried you see, and how much slate they wanted to get rid of there. Aberdeen, different slates going there. They were thicker and smaller you see. Because the weather was bad there wasn't it. I see. But in Ireland, Dublin and Belfast, the lovely best slates you know, used to go there, to Ireland. Best slates. Ah b a Scotland there was different place altogether for slate. Aye. And they used to count it like that and every hundred they stick a pin in see. And they had a slate in their hand, square slate like this. And they used to mark the hundred and then go there again, take the other pin out and go like that you see. Counting them all the time like that. Yes they counted thousands of them. Well they they knew how to do it didn't they? They were used to it. They had a say there was two or three counters, this man in that part had made the cargo already before they started see. one man er that had so many hundred apiece or so many coun sizes say, different sizes . And then they used to go with their slate and and they knew it altogether and then the counter turns and turns like that. And they don't do it now. They made the rope. how the ships finished here. They belonged to they were ships you know, but they had one sailing ship, the herself, They made a road into quarry you see. And instead of a ship going from here to Aberdeen,she might be a fortnight going there, with bad weather . Going to different places, windbound we used to go. Because we boys used to like the windbound lying and talking and in the galley and smelling of the coming from the galley, all the saucepans and things like that. You know. Aye . Aye well you see it we used to it doesn't matter how she jumped and rolled, we were eating just the same. But if a young fella started you know, he couldn't d eat you know for a while long time. He got sick do you see, and lie down. Yeah. And we used to say,you're alright, come one. we've been the same before when we started. . Aye. Yes aye. How long did it take for your stomach to settle down then? Oh a good while. Yes? Yeah. You were afraid to see her shifting. . Oh yeah all the time. We used to tell Well the old men used to tell us, You'd be alright used to it. But we used to tell these young when they c Erm young ones come when we were going all . Aye. I remember one fella she was rolling and I was in the galley. And with a frying pan full of some stuff there,very nice though. And he come there and luckily he went on top of the table to lie down . He had to and sick, he was vomiting see. Well we used to get a bucket and throw it over the v over like that. And the old men used to do it before us aye. You'd go you wouldn't feel it at all, you'd be in your glory there after after about a month. I used to be All the lads the same age as me there. Yeah. And then down here was all s sailing ship there. Well do you see the photos of them on that has she. I hope s She has yes. I hope she's bringing them back aye. Well she will up there. . Aye. They're not new houses there, they're not very old are they? Not relatively speaking, no. No. Oh th these are old but these are er second repair these are these two. Th told you them two in the top started new but the war broke out see and er then they this up . This was a terrible place in them days aye. All kinds of More people living here very old you know then. Yes? Yes. Yeah there were. Of course I remember them eighties and nineties here. And they used to work. Well they had nothing after like. There was no dole or nothing like this they had. There were only workhouses and like that for some of them . How did the old ones Eh? How did they old ones survive then? Well God knows to tell you the truth there. They were er well they were different to us, they weren't going nowhere from here and er they had no best clothes only same clothes mostly for days and Sundays isn't it, same. Er there were some like look here Tell you what's made the difference . I remember well, ten pubs in here, round this quarter. Ten. Good heavens. And there's only two here now see. there in and er where's the other? On the beach there, the . Oh yes. And th that's bigger now. That's that used to be the part there that's gone big there, was sailors . was given it I think, all the sailors used to old sailors after they gone too old, was going in there all the day and a big fire there. Well I've been myself. Going there, big fire used to smoke pipes like that, in there. There used to be used to shunt them out didn't they. And the lads were glad to go there. Well I wasn't married but I used to go in there and I used to come home er say in Winter if I come home for a w week or two, I go in there, and sit by the fire and have a yard. And they tell us which boat old men been and what th See that's how we learned didn't we. I see. Yeah. W what happened when things began to to go down as regards the ships then? Oh everybody was going poor wasn't they . Some well I myself I was lucky I had a job with my brother in law, he was working there on the railway and he knew them well. But er well he he was from that part of the town, Westend, that way you know. You know Westend do you ? I do yes. He was from th that way do you see. But he got married my sister and lived in house down there and er that's how I got a job there. He went and p pushed me in somehow or other you know. And I went then and I and cos the b he to asked this man see, the foreman like there, and then er he gave me a job. Well he er he asked where I'd been working and what could I do and and I was young then aye. And I'm old now, but I feel champion though. er be ninety four er next September. If I'm alive that is? Oh ninety three I am, aren't I now? I'm ninety three now and I go in this back yard do something every time. I've got a big back yard here. I'm cutting grass there now but it's cold today I cut that with a big scissor like this. Aye. Yeah. Oh I'll go there and finish that perhaps this afternoon or tomorrow, anytime there's no-one's to go there only me now isn't it. And coal fire I make. I was going to light it I I've been lighting it until er the beginning of the week I think. So I haven't lit it now. It's ready to put a match into but if it gets a bit colder now today night I'll put a match in there see. I think you might need And it'll b Eh? I think you might n n need it cos it's a bit chilly today. Yes I feel a bit now. the back door's there see. wind is coming from the North here. We get a lot of wind here, we had a lot here the other night. . What night was it, Monday night Yes it was. I reckon wasn't it. Everywhere was going yes. Well I had to replace a s er two slates on on my roof. Oh you replace it where you all living? . Oh w I've heard of the name but I don't know where it is either. It's near . Oh aye Well I've never been that way see. No. Yes er Well thank you very m much Mr . Oh yes, if I can say anything sometime. Would you like to hear some of it? No. tell them that, at the end of next month, for a week, to mark Australia Day, this programme will be coming to you live from Sydney. Now, we're looking for two couples to accompany us down under, to find out how you can perhaps qualify, stay tuned for the Dougie Down Under competition, thanks to QUANTAS, Australia's national airline. Ten to eight is the time, Anna from Chigwell is on the line to me. Anna, good morning. Good morning, Doug, I'm a first time caller. Welcome, what would you like to talk about? Well, I'd just like to say, about the lady who kept her hat on in the house all the time, and if someone called that she didn't like, she would say I'm just going out. If someone called that she liked, she'd say, I've just come in. You've alre you're, you're, you're erm, er referring to the story that we were discussing Yes, yes. earlier, we've had a lot of calls on this on er, the best way to deal with house guests who inflict themselves on you over Christmas, have you ever had any horror stories yourself? I guess well not really, I erm, I try to make people welcome, and they usually let me know if they're coming and then I'm prepared. Well, that's true, but there are some people whom you'd rather not have in your house, that you really can't do much to avoid coming, can you really? , well you can say you're going away can't you? I suppose you can really. I mean there're always excuses these days. People do go away for Christmas. Yes, that's, it's a lovely, er, lovely story, Anna, er had a hat on and if she didn't want to see anybody, she was just going out Yes . and if she did, she was just coming in. That's lovely well, yes Well, listen, can I say something else? Please do. About the television licence That's right, this er, this proposal by the Commons' Heritage Committee, that if you actually want another telly in your house, you have to pay twenty quid extra. well, I have one, and I think that's expensive enough, but regarding the licence extra money, I think that we shouldn't have to pay any television licence at all with some of the programmes that we're getting on, they're all repeated Well, er, Anna, and it is er, er a complaint that is er, often, er put up on this programme when we discuss television, they're repeated, and I do agree. There are an awful lot of repeats, especially through the summer, on the B B C especially. But, you know, a lot of those repeats get huge audiences, and th they must have repeated Dad's Army, and 'Ello, 'Ello about fourteen hundred times, but they still get enormous ratings, those programmes. Erm, I suppose it's the sort of humour that er, one looks at again and again, and still laughs. I know it is with me, er, with Dad's Army, so er, if they're getting huge ratings with those repeats, well, they're obviously gonna put them on aren't they? David from Stratford, good morning. Good morning, Douglas. Erm, this is story a that goes back about twenty, twenty one years ago. Er, I, I was only about twelve, thirteen at the time. Erm, we had a erm, I had an aunt and uncle, they lived in Southend, and they used to like to come up and perform em, he had a violin and she used to play the piano, and my erm, father didn't really care for the music, but they liked sort of opera and stuff like that so we saw them, er saw them actually because we live in a flat, and we saw them coming from the station, er one, one Saturday morning Yes. so, we decided to pretend we weren't in. Now, at the time we had my grandmother living with us, so we had to tell her shut up, erm, and when they rang, er on the door, she, she wasn't to sort of, call out and you know, to tell us that the door was ringing, Yes. so, erm, they rang and they rang, and they rang for a good twenty to twenty five minutes and we just erm, we, we all huddled together in the living room, and erm, anyway about half an hour went past, and then they finally went, we saw them, we live in a flat, and we saw them from the window, we saw them going back to the station you see. So, my dad says oh, thank goodness for that, anyway, erm, we, we sort of relaxed after that. About two, three hours later, after lunch, there was another ring on the doorbell, I went to answer it, and of course you can guess. There they were, they, they'd gone for a walk round London, and er come back. They'd come all the way from er, Southend, as I said,, and erm, Oh. I didn't know what to say, and they said, well where were you, well er, I said we were all standing on the balcony and we, we didn't hear you, erm, it was ab I mean looking back now, it's funny, but it was ludicrous at the time. Well indeed, and er, having got in, I suppose they proceeded to entertain your father with the music he didn't particularly want to hear in the first place? That's lovely. I feel a bit sorry for them, having come all the way from Southend, to your place, and er, being left ringing the doorbell for half an hour. I suppose a lot of people would say he got his just desserts, they did in that family, because they all came back for, three hours later, and er, gained entry. Doris from Ilford, good morning to you. Oh, hello Doug, yeah I wonder why you're so jolly in the morning. I mean, when I get up in the morning, it takes me four hours before I come to, you're always so jolly. Well, I think you know, I'm a naturally optimistic sort of person, and I, I'm not er, sort of blowing my own trumpet here, I, I, I erm, look on life with a great deal of optimism, er touch wood, I've been fairly lucky in my life. I've got a job that I love doing, and er, I also take the view that if I came and did this programme and moaned away at everybody, and er, moaned away about everything, nobody would ring me up, and nobody would listen. So, you know, I, I don't want to be too jolly, because er, er that, that, that's er, as bad as being morbid, isn't it and miserable, but I try and strike er, a happy balance. Okay, can I talk to you about the televisions? Yeah Well, I've got one in my bedroom in c cos, when I was in, ill, you know, erm, it's er, nice to, but I've got one downstairs, that's two, that's two. Now, for a long time, because my children have grown up, and I don't see them being, being young men, when the young men get married, you, mothers don't see them, so I'm on my own, and it's, erm, I can't rely on that for company at all. L B C is on day and all night but Wonderful. the thing is, erm, I don't think that the, the standard is good enough to warrant paying eighty two pounds for a licence. Oh, so far from paying any extra for a another television set, you are not happy at paying what we're paying at the moment? I'm going a step further, Doug. And I've got some friends, who are very affluent, I'm not affluent at all. Mhm. Er, you go in their home, it's black and white, because they refuse, they don't think it warrants the eighty two pound licence, and I'm gonna get, er black and white, and er, that's what I'm gonna do. Okay Doris, well, far from paying another twenty quid for her extra television set, Doris is very annoyed she's got to pay eighty three quid for a colour licence, and she's gonna now go to black and white. I forget what black and white is, it's considerably cheaper, isn't it really? But, erm, a lot a people are now saying that the quality of er, the programmes on the telly isn't very good. Er, if you want to er, develop that part of the argument, then by all means, let's do so, after the eight o'clock news. It's now three minutes to. Right, exactly sixty seconds to go, then I'll bring you the eight o'clock news, then after that, we'll continue our conversation on the main topics of the morning, according to you. Families with more than one telly, could soon be paying twenty pounds extra for their licence. It's to lessen the burden on hard-up viewers, but most of you this morning, feel that to pay the existing licence fee is far too much, so I'd like to hear more views on that please, and also I'd like to hear from Spurs fans especially, and football fans in general, your memories, your tributes to the late, great Danny Blanchflower. Right the eight o'clock news coming up, on this radio station. Right, I'm sure that er, many people will know by now, but I'm gonna say it anyway that at the end of January, we will be on the Breakfast Call, broadcasting to you live from Sydney, to celebrate Australia Day. Now here's the interesting bit, in the next few minutes, I'll be telling you how you can win the chance to travel with me on an all expenses paid trip. Stay tuned for the Dougie Down Under competition, thanks to QUANTAS, Australia's national airline. The time now is nine and a half minutes past eight. If you've just joined us for the eight o'clock news, as many people do, welcome. We're discussing this morning, and I'll run briefly through the subjects that we have been discussing this morning for the er, new listeners. Families with two tellies could soon be paying twenty pounds extra for their licences, to lessen the burden on hard-up viewers. That is the proposal from MPs on the Commons' Heritage Committee, do you think it's fair? That if you have a second telly in the house, you should pay twenty pounds extra in licence money for it. And it may be, that if you have three tellies in the house, you'll have to pay forty pounds extra. I wonder if that is fair, even if it is going to ease the burden on hard-up viewers? A lot of people are saying this morning, that er, the existing licence fee of eighty three quid is far too high, given that we er get repeats from the B B C for most of the summer. Well, a lot of er talkers there, and er, if you'd like to give me a ring, it's . We've been discussing the release of the three British hostages. Saddam Hussein has made the most of it, hasn't he really? Getting himself photographed shaking the hands of our mediator, and negotiator, Sir Edward Heath. I wonder if that erm, really did revile you seeing a leading British politician shaking Saddam's hand? Do you feel a deal has been done there? And, er if indeed a deal has been done, is it worth it, to get those three British people out? . We've been discussing guests coming to stay at your place over Christmas. And there's a fascinating article in this, the current edition, the January edition it is now, because they go so far in advance, of She magazine, which says that er, it's a desperate plight sometimes, when you have people coming for Christmas who fall into several categories like lazy slobs, who do absolutely nothing, and misers, who turn up with a stale box of chocolates, and never take you out for a meal in return for your hospitality, and the amorous couples who er, embarrass you by er, er, noisily retiring to their bedroom, if I may put it that way, and then the guests who turn up in mid-row, and bicker systematically over the whole of the festive period. So, how do you get rid of or avoid coming, of the unwanted guest? And I'd like to hear your tribute, perhaps your memory of the great Danny Blanchflower, who so sadly left us yesterday. One of the great footballers of er, his age, or perhaps any other age, and it's sad isn't it, that in the same year, we've lost two, Bobby Moore and then Danny. There's also another story, I'd like to er, throw into the conversation, if I may? The residents of Tunbridge Wells in Kent, are,th the dismay, of British Telecom at the moment, because, about thirty five percent of B T's sixty thousand customers in Tunbridge Wells, are not in the book. Well that may surprise you. Keeping out of the book, in fact, has become increasingly popular, with the national average of twenty five percent, being one of the highest in the world. In London, believe it or not, B T tell us, that forty three percent of their customers are not listed, while in south west Essex, the average is forty percent, and in west Middlesex and north west Kent it's thirty five percent. Now, er, I don't know er why you might want to be unlisted, ex-directory, not in the book. If you are, then give me a ring and tell me why. Melvin from Hendon. Good morning Melvin. Good morning, Douglas. I'd like to pay my tribute to Danny Blanchflower. Yes? Er, he in my view, was a rare spirit. A spirit, that it seems to me, has virtually gone from em, certainly English football nowadays, and I think, in many ways, English sport in general. He was not only a fine footballer, he was also a gentleman to the Nth degree, and he told the story, I remember, he started his erm, professional football career in this country, with Barnsley, and he was transferred from Barnsley to Aston Villa, and at the time there was some haggling over the fee, and er, he was taken by the chairman of Barnsley, to meet the chairman of Aston Villa in the chairman's Rolls Royce. They went down to Birmingham, and while the er, two chairmen negotiated in the dining room, over a, an extremely affluent lunch, Danny Blanchflower was em, pushed into the kitchen to sit with the servants, if you like. That was the way of things in those days. Yes it was, yes. He was erm, unusually for that time, indeed, unusually for now, a university graduate. He graduated from St Andrew's University, and to, in many ways, he was infinitely better educated and more intelligent than those who ran football around him, but nevertheless, erm, he never showed that, in erm, a sense of being superior. Never, he was a remarkable footballer. He gave Tottenham Hotspur the title, I think, of the greatest club side ever in erm, British football, and they won erm, the double as everyone knows, in nineteen sixty one, the first English team to have won it this century. He led them to the er, first British title for a European trophy, and erm, eventually er, he also was a member of the Northern Ireland team that actually reached the quarter-finals in the nineteen fifty eight World Cup. And Northern Ireland's a very small country against all of the others. Yes. I d I know that, there's that phrase you know, we will never see his like again, I think we probably will, but it will be a very long time, and I cannot tell you the infinite feeling of sadness erm, that I felt when I heard of his passing. It seemed to me, an age had gone. Melvin, thank you very much indeed for your reminiscences. Jeff of Streatham. Good morning. Good morning, Douglas. First of all, all the best next week. Oh, thank you. Er, secondly, the hostages. Yes? You know, the ones being released today. Mhm. Erm, I er, like everybody else, are very glad to see they're gonna get their release, but do you know Dougie, erm, I for the life of me, cannot understand, and we don't know the full circumstances, how these people wander into a country like Iraq, which has a terrible reputation, and they don't like us very much, you know, how does this happen? Wouldn't you stay about five mil at least five miles away from the place if you were, if, if you were, if you er, wandering out there I certainly would Jeff, I couldn't agree more I mean I can't understand, yes yes I'd stay about five hundred miles away from the border if I was them yes That's right, yes, me too. Erm, you know, this is what I can't understand, we haven't heard this. An interesting point. Thank you for raising it, and er, we might get some er comeback on that one. Er, it's all very well saying er, these people were apprehended, what a bit of bad luck, but what in God's name were they doing, straying around the border of a country like Iraq? Cos I say, I'd steer well clear of that place. There are many other places I'd like to visit, Sydney is one of them. I'll be telling you more about that in mo. Do you know, I'm getting quite attached to that tune. In five minutes it'll be the Dougie Down Under Competition, thanks to QUANTAS, Australia's national airline. We'll be bringing the show to you live from Sydney, Australia, at the end of January, to mark Australia Day, and we're looking for two couples, they can be husband and wife, mother and daughter, father and son, any combination you like, even a couple of friends, we're looking for two couples to come to Australia with the show, and to act as roving reporters. We want you to travel round the country at our expense, all expenses paid, needless to say, and we want you to tell us, by phone, live on the programme, in Sydney, what you're seeing and what you're doing. Sounds an exciting trip, really fabulous trip, and it will mean of course, seeing you will be li live on air, that we have to give you a little audition, so the finalists, have to be prepared to do an audition with me, live on air, just before Christmas. Okay. You must also, of course, have a valid passport, and you must be free to travel in the last two weeks of January. Okay. So I'll ask you a question in about er, three or four minutes' time, which could result in you're going out next month with Dougie Down Under, thanks to QUANTAS, Australia's national airline. Beverley of Hampstead. Hello. Good morning. Good morning. What would you like to talk about? Well, it's about why I've been ex-directory for the last, er, twenty years. Oh, right, why then? Well because I'm a single parent, Mhm. a single mum,an you know, started off with two small babies, living very, very fast, and er, it's sort of safer. I think, you know, a woman living alone, Mhm. in this day and age, erm, is sort of erm, not a good thing, to sort of, advertise your name in a phone directory. Mhm, and you don't find that that gives you any difficulty at all, er with people who genuinely want to find your number? Er, well, erm, they could sort of do it, erm, I mean, when I leave er, a place that, house that I used to live in, I leave a forwarding address but no, I make sure, with the people that erm, take over the house, but they don't actually give out my phone number. Mm. But they can, if they're serious, they can do it by writing, you know. Mhm, so you're ex-directory, Beverley, and you've found that it's er, a great benefit as a single mum? For security reasons, yes. Beverley, thank you for your call. Larry from Chalk Farm. Good morning Larry. Hello Doug, how are you? I'm very well, and I know, er, that it's your birthday today, and said No. That's right isn't it, are we right? No, you're not. My birthday is February the tenth. Oh. And in fact you're probably going to be invited because everybody seems to want to give me an eightieth birthday party. An eightieth birthday party? Is it, are you eighty in February? Yes, February the tenth. Oh right, I thought Now th it was December the tenth. We got er, the wrong dates, we've got you down in our list as December the tenth that's very odd no, I'm going to give you a list of parties, you can choose your party. I would, if I were you, I'd take the one in George studio. Alright, that's, you're on then, in February . Right, okay, well a happy birthday when it comes, and er, welcome to the show. Now, the reason I called was, that I have always been out of the phone directory ever since my name got well known in showbiz. You get Sure. an awful lot of pressure if your name is in it, but I got a special pleasure when I organized the reading from Salman Rushdie's book. Oh yes, well I suppose it would be I organized that at Conway Hall now, in most reference books my agent's name is listed, and my agent got a call saying the minute I began to read from that book I would die. Oh. Well, my agent got terrified, and she closed up her office that day, and they all went home. You're still here. I'm still here. They, they, they did get me, and I don't know how they got my number. They called me, and they said again, if I read the book I would be killed. And I said, look why don't you meet me in front of Conway Hall and kill me then, it would save so much time. Larry of course, with er,w w being a famous personality as you are, I mean er, if you were in the book, it would be awful wouldn't it, cos people would just have to, to er look up Adler, L and they Yes. they'd get you wouldn't they, really? Well, you, you see you get of every kind of, of a charity application, begging letters and so forth and it sounds cruel rather Yes, I can understand that. to say that you don't want to read all those letters. You cannot get interested in so many things. Larry thank you very much indeed, and erm, well have an extra birthday on us. Happy birthday for December the tenth as well. Eight twenty five. Right time for the Dougie Down Under competition, thanks to QUANTAS, Australia's national airline. Two couples must win an all expenses paid trip to Australia with me, when the show comes live from Sydney at the end of January. Hope I'm back for Larry's party. We've had four questions already this week, if you missed any of them, we will be repeating them next week, but now here is the final question. I think it's the most difficult actually that we've er, brought you this week. What is a baby kangaroo called? What's a baby kangaroo called? Now as soon as you have the five answers, and if you haven't heard the other four questions, then there will be a chance, as I said, to hear them again next week, when you've got the five answers, I'd like you to send me them on a Christmas card please, this is very, very important send them on a Christmas card please, to the following address. . Answers on a Christmas card, to and the Christmas cards please, with your answers, to be in by first post, next Friday, the seventeenth. Then, we'll keep you posted as to what happens next. Eight twenty seven. Right, the search is on for the person in the team who told me that Larry Adler's birthday was today, and not February the tenth. Anyway, er that apart, for your views on the news. The news coming up. and when I talked to Derek Thompson an hour ago, he's been in good form has Tommo. He's er, three winners out of four days, and a second, and er, he's going for a couple at Cheltenham today, in the twelve thirty five, number four, Book of Music, and in the two fifty five, number two, Flashing Steel. Twelve thirty five, Cheltenham, number four, Book of Music, two fifty five, number two, Flashing Steel. Pam, most of the morning papers of course, have had er, glowing tributes, quite rightly so, to Danny Blanchflower, we've had a lot of people on this morning saying that we'll never see his like again. Er, er, it's dreadful isn't it, that we've lost two of the outstanding footballers of this or any other age in one year. Bobby Moore and now Danny? Mm. Bobby Moore, yes, and of course, er, you know, it, it has been a, a very sad year, you know if you couple it together with, with Arthur Ashe, the Wimbledon champion and Of course, mm. of course, erm, James Hunt, but er, yes, it's rather sad as well that, you know, the last few years of erm, Danny's life were, were, were, he was so crippled with Alzheimer's and, and really not er, er shade of the sort of happy, er person, that, that he had been. But I think that's how we will remember him of course, when, when, you know, the sadness er passes away. Well, one of the great gentlemen of football, wasn't he? Now maybe there's no place for gentlemen in football now, I don't know, but er Absolutely well it does seem, it does seem a, a football of a, of another era certainly, but erm, I mean, I think he brought a breath of fresh air into football at the time. I mean even, even myself as a young girl, I'm not, I'm not th you know, that, that erm, that young yet, but I can remember him the er, you know, streak of er, lightning across the old black and white screen. But erm, Mm, yes. indeed, he, he's been revered as an intellectual player, erm, he, a thinking player, a shining example, and of course, that, that shows up in, in statistics when you read about what he's achieved, and you think, you know, fifty six caps for Northern Ireland. Mm. He got Northern Ireland into the quarter-finals of the World Cup in fifty eight, and again at club level. Cup double, cup and league double in sixty one, F A Cup the following year, and erm, the first British club, Spurs in nineteen sixty three, to win er, to win the European Trophy, the Cup Winner's Cup, a five one er, victory against Athletic Madrid, I mean, that is tremendous, that all speaks for himself, and, and I gather he's a very great rac raconteur, and a much, much loved er man, sadly missed Mhm, mm oh yes indeed, yes, indeed, indeed, a great after dinner speaker too, tremendous er, tremendous Irish wit. Well, he graced Northern Ireland, the Republic of Ireland, of course, well placed for the World Cup draw, aren't they? Yes, quite interesting because er, they've been named er, in group two er, of the seedings, which have been er, released today. The draw will er, be er, a glitzy affair in Las Vegas, with er various Hollywood stars, and rock stars, next week Elton John and Rod Stewart will be turning out, and Julio Mhm, I can imagine well they know a bit about they know, oh, the, well, Julio of course used to keep goal didn't he? For er, a club side in Spain wasn't it? Yes, I can't imagine it, and again of course Rod Steward, and Elton John, we all know, how er, well connected they are, er with the game, absolutely, so And they're very good footballers, or they were, mm. there's gonna, so we'll need quite er, quite a turn up there, but erm, Republic of Ireland are seeded er, in group two, and in fact above Holland who are in group three, and Norway, in group four. If you think they were, they were two who did better than England. Sure. But I mean, poor old England, erm, it's R I P I'm afraid. Yes, poor Er, group one seedings, just to let you know, United States who're in that seeding group as hosts anyway, Germany as the holders, and then former winners, Argentina, Italy, Brazil, and Belgium and it's all, all based on their, their results of the last three competitions. So. Right, Rugby Union, more concern about er rough play, Bath accused of foul play. Yes. Getting a bit much, isn't it? It is a bit much when you think, you know, hot on the heels of Will Carling's erm, you know, accusations about the All Blacks, and, and what they're er, er, alleged to have got up to on their tour of England and Scotland. Er, now, erm, Harlequins have complained to Bath, there've been allegations er, during last weekend's er Courage League match, which Bath won incidentally, of gouging and biting, er and Bath officials now have agreed that they will look at a video recording and take appropriate action, in quotes, if anything erm, needs to be done. I mean Harlequins actually, erm, alleged that it wasn't just an, an indiscriminate boot or a punch, this was quite er, yeah Calculated stuff, yeah and er, talking of fracas, a lucky escape for Ayrton Senna, in his disciplinary hearing in Paris. Yes, he, he's erm, escaped with a two race suspended ban, this was for erm, his fist meeting the face of er, Irish driver Eddie . Er, at er so Nice way of putting it. This was er, the, the er, Japanese Grand Prix in October. Erm, he didn't actually admit at the hearing that he had hit, erm, but erm, the disciplinary panel agreed that he had perhaps been provoked er rather more than er, had been necessary. So the, the upshot of it all, is he's banned for two races, but this is a susp suspended erm, ban over two months, er er, over six months rather, so it means that if he's a good boy over the next six months he won't miss any races at all, so he has had a lucky escape. He has, he has. Well known for his temper. Yes, indeed so I believe. Pam thank you very much indeed. Er, Pam Dixon er,step stepping in for er, Dominic , is the er, bearded man back on Monday? No, I, I gather he has taken a long weekend, I don't know where he's whisked himself off to, but I'm afraid I won't be here, er next week, I don't know, quite know who will be, but er, Dominic's taking er, a well needed rest. Right, yes, I might say that, right, Pam, thanks very much indeed, it's twenty minutes to nine. Seventeen minutes to nine. Gerald has rung me from East Sheen. Good morning Gerald. Good morning Mr Cameron, and er, many happy birthday returns for er, Larry Adler. Yes in February. No doubt he will, er,re reciprocate, because it's mine on Monday. Oh, is it? Twenty s I'm not sure whether it's twenty six or twenty seven. No comment please. Never mind, happy returns, many happy returns er, for Monday. Anyway,th thank you very much, and, and, I hope you do well when you go into hospital on Monday. Oh thanks, nothing, nothing to, very minor thing, on Monday. Well it is it's still, it always causes some concern though, for those around you. Anyway, it er, this business of erm, twenty pound increase on the T V. Yes. Quite, my goodness me, we er, surely the people must be sick and tired of this lot. All they seem to do is target the ones at the hospitals, the police, the fire brigade, everything. Even the heating, and now they're targeting invalidity benefit yes mm Well, when you say this lot, actually, it, it's not er, actually a government body, this, in fact er, the Commons' Heritage Committee, er these are the people who are announcing this price rise, in the proposals yesterday, they're, they're actually led by Gerald Kaufman, who's never been a Conservative in his life. I know he hasn't, I know he hasn't. But even so, the government are still the people in charge, and they're the people who should er, make a final decision or not, er, er, isn't it? I mean, it's, it's t Oh they will yes, indeed er, it will be up to the government. I mean, I mean they are, they're, they really are you know, we're so complacent in this country, Mr Cameron, I, I don't know, do you know, they're just hitting us in every direction, my goodness me, you, you know, you'll be afraid to breathe without they'll want to target that. Okay Gerald, thank you very much indeed. Gerald obviously feeling er, very, very bad about er, this scheme to make us all pay twenty pounds extra, if we have a second T V set in the house. It's a proposal, nothing more than that at the moment, Derek from Barnet, good morning. Mr. Cameron, I'd like to pay tri tribute to Danny Blanchflower Yes. er, because I saw him play actually in the nineteen sixty two final against Burnley. Oh yes. And, er, and my father actually looked up the year before and found he knew the S H M, an old school chum, and he sent us a ticket. So I've only been the once, Yes. and he really was a marvellous player. Er, he never any, you know against him, and his skill and his performance was absolutely immaculate. I wonder how he would have done in today's game, do you think there would have been room for him today? Yes, absolutely I think so Mr Cameron. You see, he's got such skill, his footwork, and he's always in the right position, and he really was, I can't pay a higher tribute. It's very sad, the news, of course. Mind you, he'd of probably been hacked down, wouldn't he today, before, that's the problem nowadays? Er, well, that's the point what a marvellous draw Barnet's got Mr Cameron, against Chelsea in the Cup? Oh yes, that's right, of course, you're a great Barnet supporter just an ex Absolutely, I went to see at , we had to trouble at , not of our supporters Well the way Chelsea are playing at the moment, you've got a very good chance of winning. Well, we've got this runner you see, younger brother Carl, he does a lovely job at and of , there's a bit of spice added to, to it. Derek thank you very much indeed for your call. Thank you Mr. Cameron, bye-bye We must move on, because we've got to have a commercial break, and then we want to check on the traffic. It's fourteen minutes to nine. Countdown to the stars, here he is, Mr Murray. Good morning. Good morning, how are you Douglas? Not bad at all sir, thank you and you? Has it stopped raining? Not yet, just a, well that's it, I don't know, it's pretty dismal. Horrible isn't it, but I hear it's gonna be a bit better this afternoon. Yes, I think it, a little bit better, but much colder at the weekend, with a touch of sleet, by Sunday evening, we're told mm. Oh, sleet on Sunday, oh dear. Never mind, you can all warm us up with your, your programme this morning. Well, we start with the morning talkback, and the hour between ten and eleven, er, it's erm,, and the Vocational Guidance Association, helping people to find the job they really want. Er, between eleven and eleven thirty, Mike and Mark will be joining me, they're the authors of the official politically incorrect handbook. And between eleven thirty and twelve, Eddis who's the author of London, Under London. We'll be talking. Some fascinating things happen under Yes, I'm sure. And then between twelve and one, it's sport back on talkback with Tony . Mm, right. That's it. Right, right, I think you'll get a lot of calls on er, Danny Blanchflower this morning, a lot of people ringing up, remembering him with er great fondness. Yes, I'm sure we will. A terrible thing that he, he had Alzheimer's Disease for so long I mean, he was only, you know, sixty seven when he died, terrible. Mhm, yes, yes, yes, yeah, but a wonderful, wonderful player, And one of the most intelligent, er, footballers, I've ever met, right yes, mm, yes, yeah. Well, I think we'll get a lot of calls, and people remember him with great fondness. Pete thank you very much indeed. Pete Murray, between nine and one. Nine minutes to nine is the time now. On we go to the birthdays. Saw Dennis Law on T V, and he says that when he first played against Danny, he kicked him all round, all, all over the park. Dennis did? Dennis said that, yeah he said that Dennis was a fairly, let's put it er, as mildly as we can, a fairly competitive player wasn't he? I think he was. I think that's er, perhaps, er, enough to be said about Dennis Law's game. A brilliant player, played many great games, but erm, very competitive. I must say, he said that he regretted it now. But he was young probably. It was the first game he played against. But erm, and the other thing is, er, going back before er, Danny Blanchflower we had a goalkeeper Yes, Ted . You remember him? I do, the cat they used to call him, mm. That's right and I believe, well I think he was the first goalkeeper to throw the ball out. I never saw a goalkeeper before him throw a ball out to erm, you know, a player. No, I don't know Alf, I can't remember if he was the first goalkeeper ever to throw a ball out to a player but, er if you want to ring up, tell you what you want to do, you want to ring up if you're around, between twelve and one, and discuss that with Pete Murray, and Tony Lockwood, for, when they have the sport back on Talkback, and er, that of course, is the specialist sportsperson's hour, and er, they may be able to throw a bit of light on that. But I can remember Ted very well indeed. The cat, yeah, he was one of the er, first goalkeepers to er, make a habit of catching the ball, rather than punching it. Anyway, Alf, thank you very much indeed, er, for your call. Rebecca of Poplar. Sadly the last call, I think we'll be able to squeeze in this morning on our programme. Rebecca, good morning. Good morning, Doug. It's in regards about the television licences. Yes? Well, I'm eighty four years old, Mhm. and I pay full price, eighty three. I heard a while ago on the radio, that they were gonna put it up to eighty four fifty. Now, in regards about that, what I don't understand, people who live in sheltered accommodation, some pay five pound a year, some pay nothing. So I say, if it's good for one pensioner to that, why don't they allow other pensioners to pay it? Yes. Or, even make it a little cheaper? Well, I would have thought so, and I think that's what the I don't mind paying for it, if they could even reduce it a bit Yes, I think perhaps that is what may happen. I don't want to raise your hopes too much, Rebecca, but I think what, er the idea behind this, I er, thing is, families with two tellies, paying twenty pounds extra for the second set, and perhaps for the third set, another twenty pounds, it's to try and lessen the burden on viewers who genuinely can't afford the existing licence fee as it is now, and Rebecca, I would have thought that you would've fallen into that category. So, er, help may be at hand in the future. And er, on that message, er, it seems, er good enough time to say that's er, all we have time for as far as the phone calls are concerned on the Breakfast Call this morning. It's three minutes to nine, we'll have a break, then we'll have Rob back with the latest traffic. How long've we got? Don't know what the reaction is and they put theirs and whatever but if you do send something on a letter think erm no now this being about it being a permanent record could be positive or negative yeah yeah, before you commit things to paper do be very very careful make sure that it's not just because you're in a bad mood or something like that they can always come back and . It lacks the personal touch it lacks the personal touch which is why you never send your people letters saying you're fired or you know lost a job you always talk to them and it can be more expensive in terms of materials you use it's it is very very expensive on mat materials and cheap on time but it's a personal relationships that's the first thing okay that'll do so when do we use it? When do we use it? It is actually it is when we're in the office oh is it a job application? yeah Very important message that's what you're trying to say like before the break when you want to have a permanent record of what you'd done so that you can't turn round and say well I don't remember them conversation letters when erm copying of letters which do need a copy of what's been what's what permanent evidence What else? When you reply to somebody or send an acceptance or When you reply to someone yeah er okay erm, I'd cut out R S V P okay, okay erm yeah although normally you could do something like that while you can do that by phone you can call up and say yes we're coming definitely just to get in touch and say it. Looking for two points not many can do at meetings as long as you pass it up there's two points, two important points that we haven't talked about so far and there in the reasons why we do it they're in there somewhere. When you want to contact a lot of people When st when staff can't all receive that information at the same time but they y'know they can read but they need the information but that can't all receive it simultaneously they as many staff many staff , one more and the last one is one you like computer stuff like that where you've got a lot of detailed information you know that you want detailed information such as this year's figures you know they're not paying you to somebody over the phone and expect to remember of course they can't so I've got the detail that I need to keep looking at, and there about that's about it. They're the times when when actually look at which ones we'd use remember the strengths in these some of the biggest yes you can go into greater detail you can see the reaction face to face you'll get feedback straight away verbal as well as non-verbal er you know immediately what the answer is if there's if you're waiting for some sort of reply to it, you'll have more effect because it's face to face erm, cheap on material but it's expensive on time you don't have a formal written record and it can be very time consuming. The best times to use the personal the actual personal touch in talking to each other personal communication is when you give reward or praise matters of importance and urgency matters of complexity unpleasant matters personal matters or things like verbal warnings. Okay. Doing things communicating with people verbally can mean a lot more now sometimes with a lot of bureaucracy you can get sucked in to putting everything down on paper but it doesn't mean as much as it does when it's face to face communication. The strengths of using written communication is that it's on paper there's a record, of course that can be a weakness sometimes, be careful what you put down, it means more you get hold of more than one person you've said it to more than one person who can be quite difficult to get hold of. Okay. it can be read whenever it doesn't have to be read as soon as it's rel received. You can make sure you can take time to make sure you get it right you get the information right gives you chance to formulate new ideas and put things in a different way until they have to be too many drafts. It can really be helpful if it's complicated and detailed information, notice the difference between complicated and complex. Complicated when it has to be written down to or detailed where there's a lot of information to be taken in and it's a lot easier if it's done that way because people can refer back to it all the time. The weaknesses are lack of security the time difference that it can bring if there's lots of replies going backwards and forwards erm it might get mislaid, it might never get read, you don't know you can't be sure that people are actually reading the memo er you don't know what the reaction of the people is you can't go back on what you've said because it's on paper er and it lacks that personal touch can be expensive on time, times to you but sorry erm but can be expensive not on time but on materials. Important matters. Okay can be used for important matters where you need a copy or a record of what's been done. It's useful when you've got to contact lots of staff or get information to many people at the same time and allows you to put detailed information down. Well that's what I think what do you think? Any comments? Yes that's right no that's a load of rubbish That's a good synopsis That's what? huh. It wouldn't look very good if I gave you a great big rambling piece of paper now to tell you about communications All I wanted you to do is put the highlights down it's all we need we need to know what the important things are, okay, just a quick breakdown of things we talked about. How many of you people do use a lot of written communications? How many, never not if I can avoid it I mean is that because that because you've made that one of the things you want to do, you want to avoid if possible or Well the only people that I actually need to write to are managers or agents and I mean I give them a print out of what I do every day right but I mean there's no reason for me to send them memos right then know what I do the result is what I do I'm not doing my job they know right, okay, okay, very rarely not a lot cos you know in the department I've got it's ah we're in touch with all of the suppliers and all the sub- contractors right erm, and with agencies like Inland Revenue and Customs and Excise so a lot of the stuff we get in is written and we have to reply okay a lot of it's verbal right but but it's erm an amount of written work that needs to be done with ours it's a lot more telephone communication okay telephone so I'd say mainly verbal just confirmation of orders okay,again I mean these are things that talk about confirmation I mean quite honestly I'm I'd be quite happy if we had offices where people talk to each other ninety per cent of the time rather than send memos and faxes to each other, and on the whole we are really talking about inside the office with the people who we work with I mean obviously clients as well trying to find something different, we tend tend to find that it's very very easy sometimes to make a phone call it's much easier to make a phone call and to talk to that person and give them the personal touch. Really the only reason I could think of when it's you know it is important to put things on paper are really like the last three bits that we talked the last three things we talked about which detailed information would need to be there so people can read it when you know it's got to get to a lot people not all in the same place at the same time or when it's you need a copy. They're the only times really and as with the I B M the I B M people's the company I B M said if it's more than a page is it really worth sending it out . Okay. Gonna ask you to do an exercise now er it'll it'll take us to four o'clock before we start talking about assertiveness what I'm gonna ask you to do is in one, two three, one two in two twos and a three I want you to put on paper one side one sheet of paper to sum up all the things we've done about communication so far today and it's going to other people on this course, and it's going to be marked by one of them on this course. On the criteria we've been talking about today, so find yourself a partner that you haven't worked with today somebody erm if you go in the same group that Kathy's in because then if it comes up to four o'clock Kathy wants to go then you can be the other partner you've got half an hour to put on one sheet of paper clearly and concisely what we've done on communications. Okay, erm well if you go you go with erm Neil and Kathy then they can give you something different, alright. You've got I'll give you twenty minutes and it's gotta be ready to be handed over to the other group in twenty minutes time. Has just one of us gotta write it or Well we don't want no all we want is one so that at the end we want from each group to go to another group to be marked. that's stumped you hasn't it? that's one way of putting it Can we have some erm date Okay let me just I'm sorry ah yes Have we just gotta list it have we? er Have we just gotta list? What've I just been talking about, what did she say? You've gotta to do it so it's clear, concise and puts across the information that you feel is important to get across right Sorry you want some paper does anybody else want some paper And you can speak loud because then it'll get recorded okay and then we can actually expressing yourselves, express yourself erm oh yeah, oh yeah yeah Paper Gordon? He's going for it that's right erm Oh yeah yeah but you know yeah the set of circumstances described yeah said it was the minute or so Can we elaborate on that erm, the time the time I've given you you seem to be quite busy another five minutes or less? Five minutes, five minutes, that enough? Okay five minutes. Well it was there so I thought I'd bring it I know you can't have it huh on to the ring road there first roundabout I come to yeah, well that's no problem and then from there even I can't get lost famous last words yeah reactions that'll be an area should have been here this morning I was coming so but um Yes I am but I don't being as far away as I am yeah I mean I yeah West Ham Oh dear Okay, everybody seems as though they've finished right can you put your as I say team one team two team three please , one, two, three Okay that's group three you see just to prove I'm listening that's for group one one okay, okay I'm not telling you who's doing whose right please mark it, marks out of ten and I want you to be able to justify your marks. Marks out of ten Okay, just about it now Okay, gonna ask each group what marks they've given and why, now it's not for the other team to justify it because it's all a subjective thing but the thing is we're hopefully marking them against the same criteria as everybody else because we've all been in the same place and listened to the same things and read the same things, however, now we know obviously it doesn't necessarily mean that everybody's taken in the same things. So let's just see how people have marked and what people see as the criteria. Let's start with your group Mark cos yeah right well we have given team two six six, fine As we feel that they missed a fair bit out what they've written is very good but erm they've missed quite a bit out So is it not detailed enough for you or or? It is detailed alright but as I said what they've written is detailed enough but they've missed out erm various things that we needed to know such as? Such as er what we were trying to listen sorry what we were trying to talk erm with the person listening didn't listen er what we were trying to talk about right, okay that warranted more marks for that one but for missing that out but kept on repeating themselves okay, so is repeated, something being repeated and also something being missed out okay. Any comments on that? Group two Not really no Do you think it's fair comment? yeah erm, I think we felt slightly pressurised in the timescale Okay erm but er trying to get down as many points as we could, in a way that you can express yourself but to show that you were What was your priorities when you were doing that, what were your priorities as far as, was it to get it all down or was it just to get in down in a particular way what what do you see as the priorities when you were talking about doing it? Well to try and show that we'd covered we'd taken in as much of what was going on Okay erm and trying to show that we'd understood it Right,alright we say we do ah group three well they got two it depends on what their criteria is if it's erm just listening a diary of events of what's gone on right then they got ten, if it's showing an understanding of what was in that diary then we're give them four Good, why only four? erm, there's on certain parts of ah what they put has shown they they've understood what was in that part of the diary like in the exercises relating this morning to or to learning like with the Roman numerals and the other thing they shown that they understood what was in that context, but then on erm when you get later on it's just er they've started off with it erm the report described what they've learnt but they haven't actually put what they've learnt right, okay yeah it's what they've done to learn it right, okay You know on certain passages it's like we've completed a questionnaire and then discussed it right they're not sure what they the discussion was really about okay whereas other parts they have gone into more detail which is ones they've gone into more details with So what they've done is they've picked a way of doing but they kept chopping and changing the way they've been doing that all the time. Any comments group three? Yeah, at the beginning was when sort of got twenty minutes left to do it erm we were fine there and I think it was the beginning part was and then we started panicking then like sort of after that you said oh do you want five minutes or more and we all sort of looked at each other you know and we didn't feel that we had enough time erm so we just sort of really okay and yeah we did forget the first paragraph of the of what we had learned so we just covered what we'd done really Could this be time pressure then? We also er actually what was meant to be on the course yeah we weren't quite sure if that was what you wanted Yeah Yeah you know Before you mark it I did mark it Don't know what you were asking us to do we were a bit unsure of In what way? Well, we really know whether you wanted us to put what we learned from the report what we'd actually done that day as in just listing it as you said like a diary or Why didn't you ask? We were a bit Why didn't you ask? That's why we were chopping and changing because some of you'd say one thing somebody that couple of times Well you could have asked you know. Questions like that you can ask then. You know here we come down to very basic premise of communication yeah remember what we said the first thing to date you have to understand what you're trying to do it's the same with written communication as well, being clear and if you're not clear then make it clear. Now really it's the same thing, don't be afraid you can't be afraid to ask because if you're not clear in your own mind how the hell is the person who's trying to communicate with you going to be clear. So that's why Well well done at least it was a a time question of course time pressure is supposed to be there it's not supposed to be nice and comfortable A because we haven't got that much time and B because the little bit more pressure you're under the more likely likely to leave certain things out so maybe you've got the point. But you know you agree with the comments that came in there yeah righto well done, well done both groups okay and then I need your your comments on this group over Yeah we gave them Group two seven. Seven yeah Good, okay erm, they've covered all the areas discussed but they didn't sort of pinpoint the areas of the Ah like again something like this what we actually okay that's what we're really sure about that's why. erm like you we read the first passage and it was kind of what's what's all this about if you wasn't in the room and you didn't know what was being you haven't got a clue what was going on because it doesn't tell you, but the rest of the sections that put down they do give a sort of brief analysis so worth seven you reckon Well we was being a bit generous like if you take them down to six What were you trying to do? What were trying to me what were you trying to do? Cover everything in the Cover everything, that was your main priority was it? yep Okay, and they did that do you think? They covered everything they to do that but they just if I'd have just read that without knowing what had happened you know I Well the middle group said said that your one was yeah How does it compare to your one then, how do you feel it compares to your one? Well we went, we went into a bit more detail Bit more detail, yeah more at the beginning Measured by the middle group's criteria they would've had three then would they? Eh? We're not that cruel No, no no no we're just looking at what criteria we're measuring yeah And you know this brings another important aspect up which is very important about communications, erm you know we've jollied along talking about what communication is making sure people know you know what you want etcetera etcetera etcetera but also don't forget that different people can have different perceptions of the same same things but as I say here we are we sat here we done we've done about an hour an hour and a half on written communications and yet you know when we passed the papers around it hasn't been too bad but there has been different things that people have gone for both in the writing of these reports and both in the marking of them as well. So you know what this is a measure of it's not a measure of anything it doesn't mean that one group's done better than the others it just means that's the way it's been measured the work that they've done has been measured by another group which isn't good or bad it's just hopefully picking out the important criteria and applying them to the work that we've done and the notes we've produced and the way we've marked other people's. Now having said that different people might make take put the emphasis on different things. Bear that in mind and also an important part of communications that's why there's always so many problems about which is right. Everybody sees a different picture and of course most people see don't see it anyway because by the time they look and see what's happened it's already happened . Right well done yeah fine no problems Have I No leave it in you don't want any homework tonight Right exhausted now anyway Sorry if they don't turn up till eleven o'clock tomorrow yeah yeah Okay, alright, I want to move on now quarter past four now, I want to talk about assertiveness. Assertiveness always seems to be one of these subjects that really, I don't why but it seems to get to get people talking about about being aggressive about dismissive about lots of different things and I think assertion perhaps is one thing that we need we need to clarify before we do anything else. Let me ask you a question. I'll give you a minute each, write down what you think being assertive means. What does assertive being assertive mean? How'ya done ya finished? All done? What do we mean what is assertive mean to you?this is gonna be quite interesting I suspect. Anybody want to start the ball rolling erm, it's how confident you are in yourself and the way that you actually put your point across. on the same lines as getting your point across and not being afraid to do it your point across and not being afraid of doing it Okay, being afraid what sort of things scared ah what people might think or saying Good good I've got trousers on right getting your point across effectively yeah getting your point across effectively yeah apart from being positive in putting your point across and erm being clear in things that you say things that you do being strong about it clear and strong, when you say strong what do you mean? Or is it you know how can you be strong Making yourself understood clearly basically, knowing what you're talking about Knowing what you knowing what you're talking about being clear okay yep More or less on the same lines having a point of view and putting it across without wavering, don't erm Cover your point Yes,getting your poi yeah okay yeah, okay Having a point of view and putting it across to other people I think we've and words are put clear and strong and I think I'd use the word forceful forceful, okay but the other bit you're happy with Oh yeah great what ya say great are you scared? erm, the one thing that I thought was under person who is who is talking he's gotta be I think he's gotta be firm so that the person understands that erm that what is required but he's also gotta be fair at the same time hasn't he? than fair okay, good good What's a person like when they're being assertive? Anybody else? Right think of a time when you were assertive When was a time when you were assertive, just think you can be anything assertive over anything it doesn't matter think of a time when you feel you were being assertive anybody think of a time when they were being assertive hoovering, cleaning the windows a bit like all men Oh now here we go right, you be careful you're letting yourself in here is gone She's that's being assertive I can be a man okay just think of a time when you were assertive and you all everybody think of a time when you were assertive, can you think of a time, anybody can't think of a time when they were assertive? You not gonna tell me even if they can, now you know you're being non-assertive. Think of a time when you've been assertive it can assertive in the very very slightest form it doesn't matter, assertive of some sort. Got a time yeah yes great I know I have been but I can't think of one at the moment make it up, make one up what would it be like if you were being assertive ? Alright we've got that time you were being assertive, think of a time when you weren't assertive. Think of a time when you weren't assertive, just think of a time when you weren't assertive can you think of one yeah If you can't think of one make it up What's the difference, what's the difference well erm I wasn't being assertive I was a bit walked over you let yourself get walked over, okay. What made it what it feel as though you'd been walked over? well erm, it's just a sense of ya know I couldn't care less it's yeah go on an do that I don't give a stuff Did it bother you? Not at the time no it didn't it bothered me when it was done because I thought you've probably done something and the outcome would be that so at the time it didn't bother me because I wasn't interested in the situation So is that being as you weren't being assertive at the time yeah Not bothered yeah, I think what it does I mean because I had the change to alter the situation okay uh uh I wouldn't take the chance So what's the difference between the two situations in you? In me? I dunno I felt like I let myself down You feel like you let yourself down, okay I'd agree with that You feel like you let yourself down, what how would you say you let yourself down, I don't mean to be specific but in what way did you let yourself down erm, I I let the person do what they wanted to do and not what I wanted to do I just went along with what they said okay, okay you feel you let yourself down because of that yeah it could've be done better okay, right at the the time I think when I wasn't being assertive and when I wasn't the difference was the person was younger than me and I was being assertive and then when I perhaps wasn't and like said you feel after that you've let yourself down. The person was older than me and he's a bit higher up the rank than me and it's all about it probably comes with experience he's to stand for yourself really but it's when you're our age and a bit younger you don't want to be seen to be rocking the boat if there's something that's going on that you don't agree with but you're asked to do something that you don't want to do valid reasons you haven't got the time or it's not really up to you to do it right those are the two you'd have liked to have turned round and say look I don't wanna do it yeah it's difficult when you're a customer yeah, yeah that's right alright erm with me I don't feel comfortable being assertive What's the difference then like what's the difference what stops you being what stops you It's not knowing who I can be assertive with done it I don't think it comes naturally either I mean you have to work at it don't you? okay ya know some people can not coming naturally not being there you just sort of No I find the other way I I find that I am assertive whereas at times I shouldn't be in fact most of the time I shouldn't be and I am and I'm the opposite okay you find it hard you find it hard to do to make a special effort what is it you have to make a special effort to do? to get aggressive to get aggressive yeah erm because it's not in my nature to be aggressive alright erm I find that when I'm not being as assertive er I'm not very good in a one to one situation thinking your answers back straight away. I can go away from a conversation and half an hour later I think I should have said that right erm where I am assertive it's where I'm working to a rule book I know those rules backwards and I want somebody to follow those to the letter right then I can say that goes in that holder you do that that that and I don't want any variation just do it so you're very clear about what it is that you want yeah when you're clear about what it is that you want you can be assertive yeah, I can be assertive when you're not too clear about it you find it difficult being assertive that's it yeah okay, what's the difference between being assertive and not being assertive what's the big difference between the two? A matter of confidence A matter of confidence okay No I was just about to say confidence really I find it quite difficult to get assertive erm but when the situation does arise I suddenly get a gut feeling about it later okay whereas you look back at the end of the day and if you haven't done what you did you sort of feel like a bit down ah and you wish you had Being true to yourself yeah go on I mean is this being true to yourself and letting yourself down and you know not saying what you feel you should've said erm perhaps now I wanna talk about one area in particular and that is this thing about you know submissiveness it seems that most people look at things that disturb you either as submissive or aggressive. A lot of people tend to look at assertion as being aggressive there's a total difference. Being aggressive is just as bad as being submissive it really is because people swing to one side you know it some people are very good at being aggressive and are very good at diving in and getting their own way and just ju by being aggressive it's naturally aggressive. Now the only problem with that is I sometimes look that these people I wonder are they really happy being aggressive all the time does that really make them feel happy? I don't think so, really it's just the opposite problem of what we've got over here, being submissive now we all know what being being sub submissive yes we let people walk all over us we don't say yeah we we listen to what everybody else says and therefore the opposite is you're gonna get aggressive to get what we want. They're both two sides of the same coin y'know, being aggressive isn't what it's all about, being aggressive certainly isn't what it's all about. What's the point of being aggressive with somebody when they're gonna walk away feeling as if they've just been walked all over, so you've still got the same situation you've got one person walking away feeling a little bit fed up and the other person not so if you talk about assertiveness in terms of aggression and in terms of submission i.e. there's going to be a winner and there's going to be a loser depending which way round you look at it then you still haven't quite grasped what we mean by assertiveness. You don't have to be aggressive to be assertive, look at some of these comments we've got here how confident you are in yourself and how you put your point across. How you put your point across getting your point across and not being afraid of doing it, doing it effectively putting the point across, being positive in putting your point across so it's all about putting your point across effectively, clearly congruously i.e. my body says what I mean. I don't have to shout I don't have to be aggressive or intimidate people I just have to tell people what I feel, think etc. Does being assertive mean getting your own way? Not necessarily It never does, it should never it should never be tied in with getting your own way. Aggressive, aggression might be tied it with getting your own but being assertive is not about getting your own way. Being aggressive is about exactly what you put up here this is me this is how I feel about what we're talking about. This is what I think, not just hiding away and saying get on with it you know get on with whatever you want to do, no this is what I believe is what I believe that we're doing. It doesn't necessarily mean you're gonna get it but it means that you're being true to yourself because you're putting your point across. And it's how you put that point across, if you put it across and if the body language you use when you put it across and do you know what makes the biggest different the biggest difference about how you put it across the most important factor about how you put it across and what you're trying to do? Any idea? We talked about it being clear, being clear about what it is that you want. Any situation with any person you need to be clear in your mind what you want before if there's any dithering if there's any way I'm not sure that will stop ya it's being sure being convinced of what you want is you know exactly what you want you know which direction you're going in. If you don't there's plenty of people out there that do and they'll walk right all over you to get what they want. So it's not about being aggressive it's not about being aggressive or submissive it's about being clear to true to yourself being aware of what you want from any given situation. Just because you're assertive that doesn't mean you're gonna get everything that you want because you're not being assertive just means that other people are aware of what you want. Being submissive is the co point where what happens when you're submissive you keep it inside you don't feel you're worthy enough or you haven't got you haven't got the self esteem to rate yourself as being able to have what it is that you want, so you keep it inside and you don't say anything and then you walk away should've said this and should've said that and all it does is eat away at you and it does that to you physically as well I mean scientific tests are already showing now that physically these sort of things you do if often be submissive enough what that does it pretty much helps helps you to eat your body up from the inside and causes physical problems which pretty much do that anyway. Because you keep it all inside it against you, you begin to feel bad about yourself you begin to lose your self esteem erm you know and that's the most dangerous thing about being bullied in terms of being at school or whether it's even at work and being submissive is withdraw internalise and to take it out on yourself. All this is you're going to take out on somebody else you take it out on yourself. the total is different opposite on the scale, instead of all this stuff inside of you, you just let it build up and you let it build up until whoosh and you throw it outside at other people, and that itself that that as well causes physical problems. Apparently, I mean I've read this, but I don't know how there was actual references to it as well but apparently what they used to do run a test they used to do was they used to get people very very angry take some blood from them, put put them inside of rats and it would kill the rats. When you get angry you pump all sorts of different chemicals around your body and they don't do your body any good that's for sure, you know you get the adrenalin that starts making everything well making the blood move faster heart beat faster you get other chemicals ready and if those chemicals aren't used properly or if something doesn't happen and it uses those particular chemicals and they're left inside the body then that causes eventually physical illness in some sort of physical wearing of some sort or another, so gradually just the opposite of this where you're you're not internalising your throwing it out, but there's a hell of a lot in there that's been stored up there and bottled up there before it throws out, and when you do tend to be aggressive it's not because you're being aggressive on purpose it's because it's just something that just happens and wells up when you get to a particular point and whoosh out it comes. So you know there's the, don't link aggression with assertion, two difference. Assertion you're clear about what you want, you can't there's no need to get get up about it there's no need to worry about it this is what you want and this is the way it is, you don't have to shout, you just have to stick to your point. exercise that you do in terms of assertion in terms of helping build people's assertion is what we call a broken record exercise, okay where one person wants something and the other person is trying to change their minds, okay, you get it in conversation when people don't take you seriously and you've asked for something and they don't take you serious they try and avoid the point, they try and change the subject. Assertion comes into being when you still bring the conversation back this is what I want nothing else will do, and bringing it right the way back all the time to discuss what it is why it's called a broken record exercise, we'll give it a quick go now. What I want you to do is in your couples I want one of you to pretend that one of you's got a grievance okay, think about it before you do it. One of you's got grievance and you want something done, there is something that you want done and the other person, is the person you want to do it or the person who's got a part to play. Now this other person is trying to trying to change the conversation, trying to take you away from what you're trying what you want done. What I want you to do as as the person who's being assertive is to stick to the point. Stick to the point, even if it means you're acting like a bit of a broken record, get that person make sure they hear what you're saying even if you have to repeat it over and over again. What I want you to practice doing is to try and get yourself saying over and over again regardless of how the other person tries to ask you questions to get you out of it, and then swap over. Okay what I ask you to do as with being assertive, first of all be clear about what it is that you're going to try and do, be clear about what it is and what the situation is, explain it to the partner and then try it and let's see how it doing. Okay, working with anybody, just just for just for a few minutes each it's just because what I want you to experience is what it's like to continually go over the same thing, I want you to experience that, to continually stick to your guns just experience that okay? Alright off you go. Okay, let's swap over, what I want you to remember is it's not a conversation it's not the try not to get into a conversation what we're trying to do is we're trying to stick to one person's trying to stick to their point the other person's trying to take them off it, okay? I want you to try and do that for as long as you can, the person's who's trying to take them off it you try and take them off that point as long as you can, the other person stick to your guns, okay? Swap it round then off you go again. Okay, How did it go? erm difference Different Yeah, because I mean it's not a real life situation So I mean you can't talk, the problem with me is I I will always listen to the other person's point of view as I found it difficult to keep going because of the hypothetical situation you know we were talking it about it early Yeah the second time was better right Again I was I was willing to listen to what you got and what was saying okay and I was okay have you got a problem with the yeah, erm yeah it was different erm with it only being role play it was a bit erm difficult to keep up with it sometimes and actually keep it going like, erm if it was the real life situation outside right you'd know that the person you were talking to had more had been through that situation before right we used the situation of taking faulty goods back to a shop right so you the person you'd be talking to would be erm trying to put you off to stop you getting something a a direct replacement right they'd be offering you a okay, okay I understand that yeah, it was difficult to to get your what you need back because you always change what erm, okay bear that in mind, thank you al al although you you're trying to make the same but you do try and change tack a bit right erm word it a bit differently right but a when when somebody when it's becoming apparent that somebody is I wouldn't say is not interested in your little complaint that you've got and that that they're they're trying to change to subject it's difficult to keep them on it right But erm I felt er are the he did alright because he I don't think he was trying to change the subject he was trying to justify it right But er, what what had happened as opposed to trying people trying to get right but er but that was the only thing really it was difficult Okay, it is difficult, okay good. I I agree it is it's very difficult to do when it's not in a real life situation Difficult to do when it's in a real life situation believe me it's harder to do in a real life situation than it is in a situation we've got yeah but Harder, but it might not be for you I dunno is it? er well I found it harder to do it right Because you you're not actually talking about anything in particular yeah I mean you know if if you were complaining about something or if you were asking for something you'd be asking for it because you knew what you wanted only as you said it's all about being clear about what you want yes, yes it is true erm if if like I mean for instance we weren't clear about what we were talking about right okay so there's a big difference okay good point and that is that is a point, that you need to be clear about what you want to role plays on as good as the real thing you know but then again sometimes you know sometimes I've listened to people saying well role plays are a bit harder than real life harder than real life why are we talking about being assertive now. You know yeah may be may be and it is difficult situations do it but I think some of the problem comes in that it's very difficult for us to to stick with the point and hear ourselves say the same thing over and over again because it doesn't feel right how many how many of you didn't feel right doing doing what you were doing? How many of you? Don't want to be repetitive do you? That's right don't want to feel you don't want to be a pain yeah Mm and you carry on but sometimes sometimes it is the only way to do it stick with what you say and keep going. Now yes there are times when other people give you arguments and will try and change it around and and you know yes we will listen to them and will agree that but what we want to know is ultimately is what's going to be done about it. Now what's gonna be done about the way we feel is anything gonna be done about it, is the other person taking note of what way we feel and are they gonna do something about it or are they trying to dismiss it? And I think what we're trying to do is to see that we're being treated fairly just as we might listen to that person's argument as well. So it's not a case of just really being listened to, it's not just a case of just being clear, clear in terms of what you want by telling people what you want, and then finding out if they're going to do it. So assertive is just being clear in what you want being prepared to keep going until you've got something along those lines rather than letting people dismiss you or make you feel as though they've dismissed you and your point not being considered i.e. your point not being heard or going away feeling that your point you didn't have a fair crack because you didn't give your point properly. It's just a case of being true to what you feel and being true to yourself giving yourself as good a chance as any of being heard. I've got a little graph up here now one thing about communication and with good communication what you can do is you can actually increase trust and co-operation amongst people. You know if you communicate well with people what happens? Trust increases because if you can talk to people openly and they talk to you openly and you're communicating then you're quite trusting with that person. If your communication is good and you can work together to increase that co-operation and co-operation gets better really puts us with trust and co-operation puts us on a high scale. These are the two real components that we need from people, everybody needs to get trust and co-operation. If you trust somebody okay you're quite open to them, they're quite open to you if you co-operate you're flexible, you're being flexible and you like to work together and what happens is is if you've got low trust and low co-operation with somebody well what you've got is really everybody both people or everybody involved being defensive constantly being def defensive, if you don't trust somebody and you know you're not co-operative you're constantly looking over your back, what are they doing are they doing that's gonna mess something up you know what are they trying to do now. Now here when you end up with a lot of having arguments and listening to a lot of arguments a lot of them are like win lose. As far as being listening to you talking today earlier on it seems to you set up in your minds a win lose situation, I'll show that. That's a win lose, you might've lost that time but you're gonna get it back another time. If we look at a relationship or any type of communication as a situation where somebody's going to win and somebody's going to lose there's not gonna be much chance of two people working together on that so what happens is somebody's got to lose. Nobody wants to lose and if nobody wants to lose it means it gets fiercer and it goes on for longer and it does takes a long time to resolve, if it ever is and often to the detriment of one person to the success of another. You don't have to be win lose all the time, because otherwise you're gonna have a battle. One person doesn't wanna lose and the other one wants to win and is going to go backwards and forwards you just end up pushing and pushing and pushing against each other, pointless. But think about it any form of any form of problem that you have arguments that you have tend to tend to develop like that. You have up here you've got neither win lose but it's like it's a respectable thing you know you respect each other you don't trust them completely and you don't co-operate completely but they just respect just not you're just not willing to go that further little bit and it becomes more of a more of a rather than a win lose or a win win it's more of a people half and half okay I'll give this much if you give that much. Now what's the word that I want it begins with a C,I'll remember it tomorrow if you ever need to talk about it tomorrow. I haven't got it written down, oh a compromise that's it yeah, a compromise . Both sides are willing to give something up okay. So nobody wins nobody loses anything and nobody really gets what they wanted out of it at the end anyway or not everything that they wanted. However, there are ways of coming up to here we've got a lot of co-operation a lot of trust and here you get what's called synergies, new names, have you heard that name before synergy, synergy? No, I'll try to explain later on. Basically it's two things coming together and becoming more than their whole, you've got two things two people working together producing more than what two people can produce it's the relationship that produces that extra little bit more. Synergy,and what happens here there is no such thing as a lose you've got win win. Both parties can get something from that situation, if you trust people and you look at things a relationship over a period of time rather than this particular thing this is what I want now this is what I'm gonna get rather than well okay I'll help you do this now and later on they'll help me do something else, it becomes a win win. Now how you watch look at the relationship what your communication's like how much trust and how much you got co-operation you've got will depend on what type of of a relationship you have. That doesn't necessarily mean that everybody is going to have a win win relationship all the time but why not go for it. What stops us from going for it, nothing stops us from going for it. Just because you're looking for win win relationships all the time that doesn't mean that you're gonna get walked over all the time because by being assertive and by this is this is really what I want, what is it that you want and looking, listening to the other person's point of view as well as making sure your point of view goes across as well somewhere, somewhere in all of that through all this down here, there's a way of finding something for both people. If one person's aggressive and the other one's submissive win lose. We're not looking at that point of view we're looking at more like working together to find a solution. It takes a little bit of a little bit of maturity a little bit of communication skills and not everybody's got that. So who does the responsibility come down to in the end? It comes down to you, us you can't blame the other person, the other person's what the other is you've got no right to change that other person ever. That person is that person it's the way they are. The only person you've got a right to change is yourself. Therefore if you've got a relationship with somebody and all you seem to constantly to be doing is constantly arguing and it's either I win or you win you're never gonna get out of that unless other time. If we look at a relationship or any type of commu mean taking a bit of a different look at things thinking well what is it that this person wants from me and what is it that I want from this person? And when you can be clear about what it is you want and be clear what it is they want you've got more of a chance to get the solution to win win rather than if you're just interested in your position and your side. Any comments? Any comments No right no Alright, if it's so easy why don't we all do it what stops us Because you don't want to be the one to let go To let go It's a case of if I do what's gonna happen if the other person don't do it right I can trust trust, trust, somebody's gonna do it somewhere otherwise it just escalates But surely to if you've been working with your partner for a long time he's gonna it anyway Yeah I agree with that, if you know somebody well, especially if you know somebody well and if you work with people and you communicate with people you build up trust, and if the communication's there and people are talking to each other and passing on information, information's going round and round trust'll be there, the only time trust disappears is when somebody feels somebody's keeping something back. Not giving all of the information. When you work with people and you communicate you listen to what they say and you make sure you say what you need to say then that trust is there and that trust builds and it fosters trust, and really that's what we've gotta be looking for in the work situation. The problem with the work situation is that sometimes we tend to settle in, and there are you know, there are people who it's very very difficult to be trusted, to be trusting with to be co-operative with because we tend to feel that they're not the trusting or co-operative type. Maybe that's a mistake we've made and that's the way we've turned it round looking at people. Maybe there are other ways and other ways of forming relationships without people getting to know that person or working with that person. Maybe just listening. The onus is on nobody else, it's on you. You know and there's no such thing as failure, at the end of the day there's only results. So you know you might think well I just can't get on with him. Well all that means is that you just haven't got on with him so far, or you haven't quite found the right way to get on with that person yet. Gonna stop there. I'll want you to think about that tonight, I'm gonna hand out a few sheets that might might explain a little bit of synergy erm I believe synergy this is my this is more of a sort of worldly view. Now I'm not I like I like the thought of but I prefer the thought of in work and how people can work together using this type of thing and think about it in the context of work rather than in the context that it talks about erm and it'll be interesting to talk to you tomorrow so if to see what you think have the think about the things we've talked about. Tomorrow we've got quite a lively day ahead of us erm by the time we do our group work tomorrow first thing in the morning, and also tomorrow after that you'll be doing a role play as well using the things that you've picked up today and seeing how many of them you can practice and put into action what you talked about. Fun day, more fun than today and today I hope I've provided some of the ground work can't there's a lot of things I would've liked to have gone into more detail and generally I do but today there's just there's just not enough time in a day to do it. You know communications is a very big area there's a lot to be talked about erm certainly rapport and leading and things like that you asked for that we could've done a lot more with, the type of language people use we could do a lot more with but when we've got a limited time we're gonna have to take a limited snapshot and I hope that what we've done so far today you found useful and I hope when we put it into practice tomorrow maybe you can understand a little bit more of some of things that we've been talking about today. Please have a think you know have a think about some of the things have a look out if you get out anywhere tonight watching people when they're together just watch them any ideas that you have tomorrow we'll start off with the first ten minutes just going over some of the things we talked about this evening. Thanks very much for your time it's five o'clock have a nice evening and I'll see you in the morning. Nine o'clock tomorrow okay?the things that we've talked about you know the complete of the company worker and you're happy with those Oh yeah okay, okay thanks I think in certain aspects as as a team member it could be me er low in dominance I mean that that certainly is me right erm I know it's easy to say but I was prepared to anyone says which is obviously you know what I'd be prepared to do right erm but I'm not the sort to sort of push meself forward in front of other people right try to put my views forward okay erm extrovert I don't quite know about that alright, the terms extrovert and introvert here I mean we've had two comments on those are used slightly different. Extrovert doesn't necessarily doesn't necessarily isn't necessarily you know the image the popular image of an extrovert which means you know somebody who's always the loudest noise at the party and always that's that's really slightly not quite right picture of an extrovert. Or likewise an introvert doesn't necessarily mean it's a person who doesn't talk to anybody who keeps themselves to themselves and is a miserable, it's not like that at all. What it basically means is that an extrovert tends to tends to have a wide area of interests but won't investigate them as much as perhaps that that deeply, and that includes friends as well, and that includes people around them and they look at the wideness rather than the depth. Introverts are more the other way round whereas they've got narrow interests, narrow fields of interest but they look at them in depth. Likewise with friends they've probably got fewer friends but the friends they have got are very close friends and they know them on a much deeper level. That's really the interpretation of extrovert and introvert and the fact that it can apply to you know being loud and gregarious as an extrovert or being quiet and keeps to himself as an introvert that's more of a popular view which isn't the sort of thing we're trying to put across. It's more of the way that you see things. Wide and not so deep for an extrovert, very narrow very deep for an introvert that type of thing alright. So don't put too much emphasis on that. So you've probably got a wide amount of interests Yeah, yeah But you don't got you might not have one that you go into specifically in too much detail Not particularly, no Alright Okay, like friends probably got a lot of friends yeah and then maybe only one or two or three other interests you got you go to into very deeply the rest are just sort of friends yeah, that's okay, well that's extrovert so we in that particular instance. Alright did that make it make it a little bit better? Yeah Okay good I agree with the a I'll jump into things first and yeah and get bored half way through somebody else Um could be worked out. Yeah speaking about it because I do like to Okay The Chairman, Okay well don't worry don't worry he can't you know just think of something though having said that if you look at the role that you played in the group moving towards the chairman's style, taking over the group perhaps becoming and you weren't a person that sort of took over and forced your views on everybody but you were certainly up there at the front with and listening to people taking information and manipulating everything that you had to fit what was coming in from everybody so that does show Chairman's skills, Chairman tendencies Yes, it was subconsciously though Well perhaps in the future that it might be one thing that you might want to lift up and develop as time goes on well done mate. Is it, Is it? I mean there there's very heavily team worker isn't it? Yeah, yeah A person that would like to share their with everybody that's a classic team worker to me yeah that's a team worker, alright, okay. Now having said all this you know let's not identify with these too much like the that's me you know okay, it gives you an incl an idea of your in of your stance where what sort of attitude philosophy and behaviours you prefer to have within a group, okay and if you match those back to what we saw in the group erm then it's not surprising that the group got on so well together and you know we didn't have too much conflict with the amount of team workers involved because nobody in there wanted to upset anybody else in the team. You know that's really why why we've got so many team workers isn't it? And I mean I put an asterisk down there to say that's what I thought was going to come out quite heavily simply because this is is the case on these courses, you know the people that we get on these courses every single one of these that we've had, and we must have had coming up to what over ten now, every single one we've had people that the most the majority of people have had team work very high on the score. I wonder if it's something to do with the job that you do or the people you have to work with I don't know but that's generally the tendency of people in these groups, team workers come out quite highly. Let's go through all the different bits and see why, I mean all these all these type of things would indicate a different type of person different types of personality. Company worker and team worker are very very similar, except the team worker is more of a person that's interested in the other people within that team, whereas the company worker's more interested in the organisation of the company itself. You know so it's it's it's six of one and half a dozen of the other really, but the company worker learns to be the guidelines the rules the routines of the company and er also really backs up the company line you know and what they're doing for them really is for the company. Big big quite a big priority there so and you know are obviously people that like them like the guidelines that come with the company like the ideas of belonging to the company and like the ideas of actually extolling the virtues of the company and following the company policy. Ah Chairman. Chairman's the person that can sit in with the group of people and is good in terms of receiving information from people and disseminating information and giving it back out again making sure that everybody's being brought in so he's a person really not not so much a leader but he will be a person who can keep the group together and can make sure that all the information flows around the group and that everybody's getting a fair say a fair crack of the whip in terms of what's going on in terms of orienting towards a task, so everything's towards a task you need towards a task. The Chairman will make sure that it stays going in that direction and everybody works together rather than against each other so you got a high score there you know and as we saw in the you might not think you've got those Chairman's skills but then what you did in the group where you were quite a central part of what was going on perhaps indicates that these can be developed. Okay? Shaper. Well shapers are the people that say this way chaps, you know, no no says this way, and the trouble is if you get two or three shapers in a group, the group sort of starts going Mm an Mm in different directions, erm we very very fine shapers in this in these sessions. I've had two or three I think, very rarely do we find them and shapers tend to go out on a limb they tend to want to lead they tend to want to control they want people to follow their way they do tend to be the people that dig in and say you know this is the way we do it. Hence if you have a few shapers you might have noticed the tendencies in the group group discussion that we had because there'll be people digging in and saying no this is the right way to do it. No I'm right and you're wrong, and you can tell very very clearly when you have a shaper within a group. One shaper in a group isn't too bad, more than one shaper in a group you start having a few problems. The plant is not somebody that sits there and grows The plant is somebody that comes up with ideas constantly. Ideas, ideas everywhere ideas all the time what am I do this what about this how about this? Some of them are absolute rubbish some of them are very very very good. But the plant can't work in a group unless they have in order to evaluate or you know or other people sharing other people listening to those ideas and saying what was that idea again. How could we use this what are the benefits of doing this or the disadvantages of doing this so that you've got people within the group who could as a plant and know what to do with those ideas he comes up with them or she comes up with them don't know what to do with them just comes up it's up to the rest of the group and monitor evaluate you know the person that's always putting things that never work. to do it, no that'll never do it erm constantly they need. But those people even those these people have their necessary necessary place because otherwise the whole group would merrily go on and do everything they decide to do without somebody sitting and saying wait a minute why are we actually doing this? So the plant's important because the plant has the ideas. Plants need to be nurtured they need to be looked after and they need to be made they need to know that they come out with id with their ideas. Otherwise if they sit there and be quiet you lose a hell of a lot of ideas from that one person. And the ideas need to be caught they need to be done something with by the rest of the group. Resource investigator resource investigator got a phone stuck to his ear. You know, you want something he knows where to get it. You know you need some information, resource investigator can either give it to you because he's got it or can find it for you. The resource investigator can like a team that's always looking outside of a group to try and find the information necessary outside of the group for the rest of the group. So he'll go out and bring information into the group from various different sources. He'll find the sources from one of his various contacts. He's probably got a lot of contacts along the way for anything anything you want you ask him okay. He's the man So and again resource investigator is the person that you pack out to br to gather the information for the rest of the team the vital information for the rest of the team. I mean you came quite high in that I would imagine that's something you quite enjoy doing. You're into facts and figures and knowing people and knowing where to get yeah yeah yeah that's resource investigator. Monitor evaluator, they can usually make themselves the pest of the group because everybody thinks they're so bloody negative. Pessimistic boring old farts i think But you know having said that they are there for a reason and the reason they are there for is is if the group didn't have somebody to pull them back down again then they'd might be going off in all different directions doing all these wonderful things and ending up nowhere because you haven't had somebody who pulls them back and says well hold on a minute. If you're gonna do this have you thought of this and what about this and how does this work. They help you monitor those ideas and what's going on. Usually very very pessimistic and always look always look on the on the pessimistic side of things you know all that sort of stuff but you know they are a very important part of the group, you know given given their space to be like they are you know don't take them too seriously remember their job is to criticise and their job is to pull things to pieces. Team worker I really really want to make sure that the whole team as people work together well that everybody's happy such is the comment, is everybody happy, he wants to make sure that everybody as individuals is getting on well there's no stresses or pressures through individuals, individual relationships he tries to keep things smooth within the team. Completer finisher well if you want something done give it to the completer finisher. Other people that have completer finisher traits in abundance is people like secretaries. Because they always end up having to tidy all the knots tidy everything up and finish things off. And these are people like you say have got pride in finishing things off, you know there's a lot of people within groups who don't mind starting things off but don't fancy finishing them. You know start off and then they'll drag drag drag and it needs that completer finisher to actually get that close it down and say right that's done, off it goes. And finally, the expert again we spoke about that, a good example really is in the computer world where you have individuals who get on really well with computers and programming but put them in a group and they really don't provide any in fact if anything they take away from the group. Their presence is a detraction in the group because they're not willing to add to the group you know you've got to have this attitude if you're in a group well the attitude you need to help the group is how can I help that group? And not I shouldn't be here I really don't know what I should be saying I really haven't got as much knowledge as everybody else that doesn't matter, if you're in a group it doesn't matter what you know and what you don't know there's still things going on within that group that you can contribute to the group you don't have to be an expert on something to contribute to the group. You can question other people, other people might have that knowledge and you can question and clarify and form in your mind the ideas that you need and maybe put them to the group as a group . So we need people with different personalities and different types to be within that within any group for a group to be very successful you need some sort of share of the different types of group if you had a predominance of shapers you'd get nowhere. If you had a predominance of company workers where everybody run around following the rules well there'd be nobody else to do anything else. erm Chairman chairpeople you need one or two chairmen chairmen so you can actually pull the whole thing together and keep the group together. Plant, we'll you've got to have your crea creativity from somewhere your ideas have got to come from somewhere that's the plant. Resource investigators the information the group needs to work on has got to come from outside somewhere and resource investigators bring it in. Monitor evaluator to actually check and to give you the pessimistic side of everything to break everything down why it won't work why this should be done why that should be done instead. Team worker to make sure everybody's working together and happy. Completer finishes finishers because at the end of the day that job has got to be finished off. so everybody plays a specific role. Now if there's only three or four or five people in the group you'll probably find that people who works there their strengths and if there's anything missing in a group then sometimes in a good group other people come up take over those particular aspects where they haven't got people to fill those needs. So in a group you don't need one of everybody you could have just half of these but everybody could fall in maybe two roles within that group. But you do need the different personalities to come within a group to make a group successful. It takes different people different styles who like to do different things to different meanings to be part of the rest. So whenever you see people who're not quite like you and maybe there's something about their workstyle that you don't like think about it this way. There is something that those people contribute to the group as a whole. The important thing is to make sure that those people that have got those particular skills are given those roles to be able to perform that role perform use those skills. If they're not it's a waste of a skill. Bear that in mind. Any comments, any questions? Any observations? Bear in mind you've got all the information there you know what what you are what yourselves and remember that just because these are the scores you got today that doesn't mean that is what you are, it means they are probably the leanings that you've got at the moment. but that doesn't mean to say that you can for example you could become build up these Chairman skills that you've got okay. You can work on those and you can build them up in two or three or four year's time job changes this might take a bit more of a a higher priority. So therefore your team worker might come down a little bit score just to add on to your Chairman's skills. Likewise, you look at any of the other scores that we had fairly high up, for example you rate your plant it's a possibility there that you've got you know you've got these ideas that you're not putting forward that you could do and develop that side of . So just because you've got those it doesn't mean that's what you are and that's the way you're always going to be it'll change and it'll change as time goes on it change as your role changes. It'll change as you get older erm you won't necessarily just have that all the time we used to run these courses for students who had just come out of college and they were joining their company to work for the first first time and we used to do this and we used to find that many of the people who had just taken out the job for the first time had very very flat scores. Coming from college a lot of them used to work in groups but a lot of them had worked more individually and they had very flat scores i e everything was quite equal and they didn't have anything coming through okay. Probably because they hadn't re-used they got there by two or three or four years time when they came on to the next level of management the junior management erm we did this with them again and you would begin to find certain skills had evolved and certain certain team strengths had arisen because they do change over the years. Bear in mind what strengths you've got what strengths you'd like to have and if you know that you know what to improve and how to improve how to develop those other areas that you'd like. Okay? Useful? Interesting? Good good good remember that when you go back into a how many people actually do work with other people where they work where they work? Yep One, from outside Okay right as well as inside the company Yeah But more outside the company Ah inside mainly Right I work with a lot of different people we've all got individual jobs that tie up with each other 's jobs How many people Well I'm actually in my own office but it joins on to another office Right and there are three other people in there that Right To do with my job Okay Yeah well it but ah similar to contracts personally Got you a glass of wine darling? Sweetheart. Keith. Keith, darling wake up. Wake up. Mm. I got you a glass of wine. The sun's well over the yard arm. How are you feeling? Isn't it time you stretched your back? Oh it's lovely pain You what darling? Pain is just goes pain is Oh ah. Mm? strong Thank you Oh pleasure. Ooh. That'll help as well. It is nice isn't it? .You alright? Do you want your water bottle filled? Beg your pardon? Do you want your water bottle filled? Oh Alright. Rocket! Come on. Come on. Hello darling. How are you? Hello I'm bloody, ah! What's the matter? Ah! So you've locked it all in there have you? Is she coming? Go and get her. Go and get her. Go and get her. Oh there's a lot of shopping. Yes. Hi dad. Hi Dinda. How are you? Are you feeling you moving a bit better I think. Yeah. Yeah. Did you go to I haven't had time. This girl this morning she threw a wobbly. Well what happened? I was doing something all I heard was the sound of this chair. And then she And she threw a chair at someone? I think she was going to try and throw it out of the window but she didn't have the strength. What she threw, why would? I suspect she's for the chop. Mm. What was she ? She was . And Phil, bless his heart. Phil you know he's such a nice chap and anybody who's got any problems will go right to Phil. Yes. So she rushed out and then the came in and said can you go and have a chat to her. She, she wants to speak to you. Yeah. To you dear? No not to me, to Phil. Oh. But it was to cap it all her temp started today Temps are used to it. Believe me temps get used to it. But it was I don't know what had happened. Whether she had had a warning or what. But the thing is it's an open plan office and if you're gonna give a girl a warning you don't do it office do you? No. Not if you've got any sensitivity at all. Did did did, did somebody do that then? Well, we don't know what happened. All we know twenty past five she threw a wobbly and . No she's a nice girl. Was anybody talking to her? Well yeah she was, I think she was at Derek 's desk . Oh well I don't suppose I'll see her on Tuesday. Oh you, you've got the day off? I'm off till Tuesday now. Isn't that nice? And Steve hates my guts. He signed my form a month ago and, and so he said to me Are you going to take us down then? I can't. Christmas shopping. I've got Christmas shopping, I'm doing it tomorrow night. I'm taking mummy. . Steve who signed my form so he said to him Darinda's got tomorrow off remember? And he looked at me and he said oh no you haven't. Cos we're a bit overworked and understaffed. Yeah. He said oh dear that really puts us in the shit and I said er well I'm not. And I said to Zoe for god's sake don't tell him I've got Monday off as well. John, John at work's got tomorrow off . Oh has he? So what did your man say? I've put a vertebrae out. It was still out when he did it. Vertebrae? He said it's you know it's it's it's not easily done but he's seen them quite a lot. Ah! Now what I put out is my discs. Well he Vertebrae is bone and disc is the cartilage between. He was worried that it was a disc. And he pretty sure it's not the disc. vertebrae then? What's the worst? I don't know disc I would think. Well why, why do I, why does ? that's your vertebrae. That's just, that's just that's just releasing. Just releasing. And obviously what he did to me I'm seeing Are you really? gentle with me. What time? Six. I'll try and get there . No it's alright. What I'll do I'll leave at five fifteen. Then I'll park my car where you said and I'll sit there till No. I I I I'll, I'll meet you here. I will be here at quarter to six. Well I can get here for quarter to six if I leave work early but I don't want to put you out. No no. I'll be here at quarter to six Are you gonna see him again? Maybe I don't know, I maybe you could combine the two that's what I was thinking. Well no no. I won't be able to see him then. Oh. I mean at six thirty. I I'll meet you at quarter to six. . It's very quiet Well I don't fancy it much even with You're ? Mm. If for some reason I can't get here It's ironic really. Yes . Cos we're both trained in self defence then. Between the two of us we could . Yeah. But er but he said it's, while it it was classic thing. I bent into the car, bent round and I . And he said the twist extended it more he said and then the weight. He said and that can do it. He said your muscles are Should do more exercises. and to find the little place itself was ridiculous. I'm going out in the middle of a field. Literally out in the middle of a field. Well they should have a notice up shouldn't they? There is a little notice there on the . You don't see the notice till you're . So do you want another glass of wine? Nature's nature's anaesthetic. What are you eating tonight? I had, I had bacon and omelette for lunch. with mushrooms and Mm. I think it was just Not very ill. Pain made him hungry. All brown . And what about tonight? What are you doing for me? Lamb? Cutlets. Cutlets. Not, not a lot . Well not really. You all eat them and say that's lovely. proteins today. Well you were the one who had an omelette for your lunch . We had salad last night. I offered you salad er lunchtime and you said no didn't want it. I'll have salad now. No you haven't. Do you want me to make you some salad? I'll do it. Why not just give me the stuff and I'll do it. No. No way. You're not gonna start slicing and chopping No problem. Come on . Tomato? Please. And you've got fresh fruit for afters anyway. Erm Paul wanted ring spanners? Metal ring spanners not . Cheap. Toolbox. Cheap. Mm. Er. A four diary. Mm. I'll get her an A four diary and Yeah. And I'll probably get her a book. Oh I'll get him a bottle. A bottle? Yeah he asked for a bottle of wine. I don't know if he's A bottle of wine? Yeah. Not Jameson's or something? No he's not, he doesn't really drink spirits. He drinks wine . Oh. Well he drinks brandy I expect but you know he doesn't really drink spirits . No he doesn't does he? So if it was wine it would have to be something special. Not just plonk. Must straighten all the books up. They sell nice wine in M and S usually. Beg your pardon? They sell nice wine in M and S. They do don't they? Don't fancy a to M and S do you? Not especially. I can't be bothered. The food department is very expensive. That's right. Do you want something to eat now? Mm something to eat? Mm. No not really. Have you finished now? No. Well if all the lists say . Only one thing on the list. Well I'm sorry but I've been working . Since I've started with that I'm gonna carry on. and I'm, I'm the one It isn't difficult because no cos they're two small families. And they're one small family. Mm. I've a feeling that . Hope I'm wrong. Mm. I hope you're wrong as well. I haven't heard anything from Jenny. I wrote to her. And enclosed some interesting bits for her magazine . She didn't mention anything to you when she phoned you last week that she got a letter from me? No. I forgot that I discovered that all our letters now are apt to be a day late. I didn't know until the other day. What because Because they come through Aldershot and they all have to go through the scanner. They all have to go through a special scanner Bad news isn't it? . You know those white flowers have died. The other chrysanths are fine but those white daisy things Mm? have given up the ghost. Well I don't put the white flowers in with them. Spoils my arrangement. conversation No . I'm reading. I'm reading. Well I thought you were going to talk to me about Christmas presents. I have spoken to you about Christmas presents. I've told you about all I can tell you. Why don't you. Why don't you sit down and tell me what you want for Christmas. I mean that would be useful. Oh darling. Tut. Nothing I particularly want for Christmas. Well you bought me the new vacuum cleaner. Mm. That kind of thing which I don't think is any damn good at all. Send it back. I'm going to. Waste of money. How did you pay for it? Barclaycard. Good. Well send that back then. Ah oh dear excuse me. Oh Tilly was thrilled to bits with that little plastic that little plastic thing with Oh you've given it to her? Yeah. Arrived yesterday. Mm. Kept the box? No. Oh that's a shame. I just picked it up and got rid of it. It would have been wouldn't it? I can always get good strong boxes from . They're quite clean. They've only Mm. Or wrapped apples or something. Did you want some sugar? Yeah, I'll come out in a minute. You sure? Mhm. I like Anne Robinson on this programme. I think she's better than Jimmy Young. Really? Mm. I can't stand Jimmy Young. Anybody's got to be better than Jimmy Young. Ah. He ain't a bad fellow. I don't know what to do about these then love. About what? These things. Oh right. I don't know. I'm very sad. I've decimated the the arrangement. Have you? Absolutely. Ha ha ha. Look. Over half of it. There's only two in this one. They had flower keeping stuff, you know the stuff you get in the packet? Mm. And they had half an aspirin, pinch of sugar. Lost one. Oh no sugar in these ones. That's alright. Yeah you usually put sugar in those. There. Oh very sweet. No it's . I haven't put any sugar in. Poor little Herbie he In yours. he did look, he did look so sore. Ah! Poor But what Mrs had done, she'd restructured his insides. what? She'd had to use, muscle tissue had wasted away where it had been stretched by the double hernia Yeah. and she also had to remove part of his bowel. Mm. Just clip it up wherever she could. Fantastic surgery she's done. Really? She said if you're worried about him at all he mustn't strain. Mm. He mustn't strain himself at all. She said Mm. Poor little scrap. And he was trying to get round to his rear end to lick. Mm. And of course where . But she's done a fantastic job. Mm. Hello! But I said to well you know Dave and I will be in the rest of today if you do get worried. Yeah. check up is booked Monday at three o'clock . Oh. And I said well if you want to take him earlier. But I have planned to shopping Mm. Well we were there for ten you see. We had to wait and wait and wait. Hello. Hello. All showered and managed to dry your own feet? That's something. Yeah I've I've got . I I I lift my legs up to my head. Yes. Wish I could do that! He's practising for the Poor little Herbie he'd erm, he'd got a double Hernia. Hernia. Mm. They've taken away all the gubbins This is Mrs who looked after Debbie's cats. Do you remember? Taken away the grobbins? Grobbins? . I don't know what I don't know what it is. Not even, not even I not grobbins no. They've castrated him at the same time Oh. otherwise they couldn't get at things properly. He's better off without them anyway. He's not a stud dog is he? But he looked so little. Looked so raw round his rear end. But she, she's restructured his insides. The muscle had wasted with the pressure of the double hernia. The muscle had sort of disintegrated almost. She's had to use what muscle she can to restructure his bowel. She's a marvellous surgeon. It's of money isn't it? Well the bill's nearly three hundred pound. Oh oh! Jesus! Now that wouldn't be feasible in your case because . So what we'd have to do is trade him in Ooh ah. It's better my back. It's in my lower back. I think it's where it's been, been higher up I think it's more Being what? Well I've been holding it to save it. Yes. That's why you should have aspirin to relax it. Cos it helps it mend. Ooh. I feel as if I want to it hurts and I feel as if I want to move it. Yes. He's told me be very bloody careful cos it can go out just like that. But he did tell you to move? Oh yes but very very gently. He said tell it you're going to move. Don't do anything sudden. Tell it you're gonna move. I like the way he puts it. So the wrestling's out tonight is it? Oh Ooh ooh Have to get with the Rock. Alright Rock? Ooh Rocket ooh. Ooh ooh Isn't it lovely? Ah! Ooh Rocket ooh Do you like having your tummy scratched? Ooh Rocket ooh Yeah we got there for ten o'clock and we had to wait till they'd finished all the out-patients before they'd let the in-patients. In Mrs 's surgery. There were two doggies in their pens still sparkers you know where they've had things What'd do they do? Do they keep the doggie under sedation whilst he's healing up? How long has he been there? Oh yes. No, no Herbie's not under sedation. How long was he in there? Just over a night. operation. Oh he's had all that done? Yeah. Did the operation How does he feel in himself? Well he was he heard Audrey's voice in the waiting room Pretty bloody awful . and he was whining . She said it's alright Herbie I'm here and he for a minute. And I said he's gonna do damage if he's trying to get up at the door Yeah. the way a little Dachsie would you see? Yeah. So we talked to him but erm we didn't actually see Mrs until about a quarter to eleven. And she said you know, on no account must he strain. Obviously he's got dissolving stitches in. On his insides. And she said there was so little muscle left. It had been so stretched and strained by . But she had to do the best she could . Peter will . And of course Audrey's not too quick on her feet you see since she broke her hip. So I was trying to help Audrey and that and help Herbie. So Herbie didn't try and jump in the car before I could lift him and trying to get Audrey in with her stiff leg. And then get the rug across her . She didn't turn a hair when she said two hundred and ninety three pounds. I suppose it's like anything. You get an estimate for it. Well it's cheaper than I suppose. Parts and labour . Parts and labour. Eh? Does it come with a three month guarantee? Cheaper than princess princess Margaret or . No Mrs said she was very lucky. She'd been to three lectures . One of the topmost veterinary surgeons in Europe. Yeah. And that's why Mrs asked her to do it. She'd actually seen it done. Seen slides and been to lectures on it. I don't know it must be wonderful to be able to mend . To rebuild his rear end. Hope he comes out of it. Well as long as nothing breaks, nothing gets . No, now way must he strain so she's, she's got some liquid paraffin to drop on his dinner. Quite a major operation. He's been ever so bright. Walking about quite well, he did turn to lick his under his tail but his little tail was wagging. And he was walking fine. He even stopped and had a tinkle. See they don't know it's to hurt. No no. No I think I think animals are fantastic they way they put up with pain. Because they can't tell you. And after a major operation there he was wagging his tail and You don't know the threshold of pain in animals do you? Can't tell you. Well no. Very seldom you hear a dog or a in pain. Oh you do. Oh What's the matter? Odd. What's odd? I think it's getting better. The muscle's gone Do you want a cup of coffee? Cup of herbal tea? An aspirin? Nothing I can do you for? Oh you're book's upstairs. Do you want that? .Is it actual pain then, or stiffness? Or just that you're frightened to move? Ache? Oh a bad, bad ache. General bad bad ache. Well you could have just one aspirin. I've had one upstairs. I took one . No that was ages ago dear. It was half past seven this morning. It wasn't! When I came up. It was late. You were up getting dressed. No. I brought you a hot water bottle your aspirin. When I let the dog out. Yeah but I didn't take it then. You didn't take it then no . You could have another one love. It would relax your muscles.? No it's probably gone. Nature will usually tell you . What I always found with with lumbar aches was erm putting the knee up sideways across your erm . Hello Rocket. How are you Rocket? Hello Rocket. Oh he's pushing hard isn't he? Ooh ooh ooh ooh ooh ooh. Ooh! Now what do you do? Do you want to be hauled up? No. No just lie. What've you done Rock? Rock what have you done? He's fell on What have you done Rock? What did you do Rock? Rock what did you do? Rock? Rocket. Are you alright then? Yeah. I just had to let myself go. I couldn't resist it. Don't try and get up straight. .What are you looking for? Good try Rocket. Has he been out today? Oh yes he's been . Been round the woods at haven't you? Then I went off and left him you see when I Ooh. It's a good idea of yours putting me on the floor Rocket. Rocket. .face was awfully funny So does yours. I wouldn't have recognized him. Wouldn't you? No. No. He looked like a muppet. A muppet? . It's the eye make up I think . Mm it would be. You've got glasses on. You'd look even funnier. Oh I must do. He likes his pulled it to pieces yet. Well Dinda got on alright in with her Christmas shopping. Did she? She's got three or four presents I think. Good. Marks and Sparks is horrendous. Oh you've got up off of the floor. How did you do it? Climbed up the chair. Climbed up the chair? Mm. And you your side? Yeah I climbed, I went, I came up properly. Crawled . Rolled over on your side. Would you like a cushion? No it's alright. Do you want a hot water bottle? No it's okay. Ooh that's . Ooh it's It's better when you sit up straight isn't it? Trying to relax it. It's ever so difficult. No, it takes quite a lot of . Right sweetheart. You alright? Yeah. Are you gonna go in to erm Walton End or are you Yes. gonna leave that until afterwards ? After what? After your hair. No. No. Don't back up will you else you'll slice my head off. Well what's so funny about mum having her head sliced off? He just did. . He just backed up. He did? Perhaps he used his wing mirror. Like I do. That's a quite nice little place there. And you don't pay over the odds prices because it's not an expensive place to have your shop. Oh. That's good. You go to these big stores and they pay so much in heating and lighting and staff . This er pavement's quite nice . Isn't it attractively done? Done like parquet. Don't know who's paying for it all whether council is or what? So do you want to go over there first? It's up to you. What do you want to do? I don't mind a bit. Well we've got fifteen minutes, well thirteen minutes. Beautiful cakes. Fruit crumble. Oh dear. It's a good job I don't eat that sort of thing any more . erm new era New era? Mm. This is all the ice creams. Oh you have a bag of something in the sweet box in the cupboard in the kitchen which you must take and put on your desk. Really? And let everyone else eat them up. They're humbugs or something. Oh right. That's what you're supposed to be having as well, isn't it expensive . Selenium? Who you are? Didn't you read it in the magazine? You're having selenium are you? No I'm not. What, what's it for? Is it for me? Didn't you read it in Best? No. Last week? No. Mm. You're supposed to have it. To make all the other vitamins work or something. Oh Dad. No, you I think. I think it was for you. Oh. Here we are. It's not that. T H I I, that's it. Sounds alarming. That's it, it really is a help. Is it? Yeah. Yeah. Camomile tea okay, I don't know how many is in your packet? I gave Erm probably drunk them all. I must remember to take one to, there the one's aren't they? Yeah they're much cheaper than Safeway. To Christmas bananas. I'm nearly out of feverfew. Better get some. Oh I never find it. It's in a box like that. Then one of the girls comes over and says here it is, straight away. . It's down here somewhere I think. Feverfew just ridiculous. Here it is. Look. Hold on. Erm bananas I need. Do you want a bag? You won't manage it. You need another hand. There's a clever girl. They don't want to open, do they? Hang on. You haven't done that very well have you? Oops. Oh mother! Hang on. Put it in there. Well I've only got one hand as well. Should have had a basket. Eggs, new era, camomile tea. Christmas cards. In there you've put bananas in there. Erm where's your eggs gone? Eggs? Mm. Just there. To your left. Oh yes of course. Free range. Got lots more to put down. Is that the lot then? No Christmas cards over the road and Oh yeah I know but I meant in here. Casserole dish . I meant in here. . Sorry love. Great. Thank you. Nine pounds thirty seven please. It mounts up, doesn't it? It certainly does. Thankyou. Thankyou. You're very quiet this afternoon. Pardon? Very quiet. For a Friday and coming up to Christmas . It is isn't it? Yes. Thank you very much. Would you like your receipt? Not really. No? Right. It can go with the rest . Yes. Thankyou. I don't think anyone ever wants the receipts. No. Goodbye. Thank you very much my dear. Bye bye. I hope you've got my gloves? Yeah I've got them. Your gloves and your brolly. I got Keith some rice mixture yesterday and he didn't eat it. He wanted come on then. It's warm enough to have the door open. What do you need here? Christmas cards. They're er they're in there. They're good aren't they? Oh no that's, that's where I usually get them. In that bin. These are thirty p. They're quite . And then robins on the front. Oh they're nice aren't they? How many to a pack, six? I don't know. Er Looks quite a lot. Ten. That's not bad. For thirty p. Jesus incredible. Isn't it? That's good isn't it? I suppose they're all alike but they've put different ones on the outside. Well they must be similar. Erm casseroles. They probably won't have any cos it's winter now. They only sell casseroles and things in the summer. Oh look. There's one but it's not a, not a three pint. Three or four pints she said. Mm. Is that Pyrex? Well it's, it's the French equivalent. Is it? Mm. Arcal crystau d'arc yes. I don't know. Or crystau d'arc whatever you like to call it. No, she said well she means an oven dish. Still they're very nice. I wish they'd got a bigger one. What size are they then? Two one and a half to two pint I would think. Oh they're not very big are they? And that's a water set. Hello love! Hello. You haven't got any larger casserole dishes have you? No . You want the great big one Mm Yeah. about a three pinter. Yeah. ten pound one. No we do one like this, in this colour, Pyrex but a big one . Oh that's alright. But you haven't got one? But no, it's that one there. That's the size up from that one. Yeah. That's what we want, yes. Yeah. But haven't got one. Oh you rotten thing. Actually ask the girls and if they get them, go up the warehouse next week they'll bring you one. They're nice, those. They're ever so popular. We sell a lot of them. One point five Q T it's got on there. Quarts is it? One point five? Quarts? One point five quarts. What's that in English? Well one quart is two pints. And a half a quart is one pint. Right. That'd make it the three pints. So you'd want the next one up wouldn't you? That would be that one. Well it's a three or four pints she's after. It's probably a four It doesn't look big enough. Are you sure it says one point five quarts? Well it says it on there somewhere. one point five quart. Well. Perhaps it's perhaps they hold more than you think they do. I don't know.. What do you think Dinda? Should I take this one? While Erm they've still got it. It's the last one. It's not chipped or anything is it? No. I've got my hands full and you've got your hands full. Three pint. See we might not get one more in before Christmas. I'll ask Gill and Maureen Mm. take that but then if you, if you really don't think that will hold what you want then you'll have to bring it back. It's a, it's a, it's a Christmas present . Oh I see yeah. Ah. Three to four pints she said. That looks yeah looking at it I think it It's quite capacious, actually. Yeah. I think It's a nice dish. Have you we haven't got a measuring jug. Haven't got any what? That is right isn't it? One pint is Well a quart is two pints. Yeah. And point five of a quart is one pint. That makes it three pints. Why they can't put three pints on instead of one point five quarts . But does she want a three to four one? If she wants a three to four you gotta have the next size up. Three stroke four Well she said three or four. Oh I see. so obviously she was easy about the size. I think that would be ample cos usually there's only two of them There's only two of them, yes to eat anything you know yes, yes. True. Yeah I think we should grab it while we see it actually. I think we should too. It'll be half the price it is in Boot's Cookshop . Do you want me Do you want me to drop it or should you drop it? I don't know. Do you remember Jackie, he used to be another one look. Yes. And that that one holds quite a lot No. No. Do you remember Jackie? He used to be dark haired and worked in the toy shop in Sandhurst. Yes I do. Yeah I thought you would. I knew the face. Used to go in for your model paints and coloured marbles That's right, yeah. There you go. Long time, long time ago. All those years I was there You haven't, haven't changed . You haven't changed. I mean your face I knew straight out. It was your hair that got me. Well the grey come through and I was just sort of I thought I can't wait all those years with dark hair. I had a friend who had long hair and she, she let it grow right the way through. And for nearly seven years she looked like an old woman of eighty. Yes. And I thought I am not gonna have that. Well that's right. I agree with you. So I more or less had a crew cut. Yes. And er of course it's still grey now Yes. except like this bit here which er grows I know, oh yes it always grows a dark bit. but that all took I think, when you're older when you go grey it's, it, you look softer and you get away with the grey coming through on white hair. Yes. That's right. But on dark hair. I mean for years when I was young I was jet black and that was lovely. Yes. That's right. You were. I never had to touch it or nothing. But when you start going grey you look so It's pepper and salt then. And your skin changes. I used to be right tanned skin. And that, that even changes as you get older. Yeah that's right. Yes well I, I was very fair to start with. Yeah. And then it began to get a bit darker. Not my eyelashes and eyebrows they're silver. Always silver. Absolutely silver. Mine are yeah, dark still. But my, I thought no I'm not gonna go pepper and salt. That's right yeah. I don't mind going silver. That's right. This is natural silver on the temples. That's right. Yeah, like, look here you see look. Yes, yes you've got a silver. I mean I've got, I mean I don't mind this but why shouldn't you do it? And my friend she looked about eighty Yes I couldn't agree with you more but she still looks old for her age. Yes. My best friend was your colouring and she always has a rinse. It's her husband. She said I don't mind going grey but, but Paddy objects because he says it makes him feel old. Oh. But the thing is He' my colouring. also as well when you're black and you touch it up black when you're old you look hard. Yes. They usually say go paler. yeah. They usually say go to chestnut rather than keep to black. Mm. Actually I wish I'd gone like this years ago cos you get Yes. you know much more fun than when you You reckon? I don't know cos I've never been brunette, Jackie. So I wouldn't know love. Oh yeah, I think, I think it's because I I had that severe hair style I think, you know I looked hard. Well I was severe. I had a severe style. That's right. You always had yours didn't you? The neat pleat mm. Yeah that's right yeah. Mm the neat pleat. But it was lovely for parties with a black velvet bow and sequins down the back. Oh yeah. I loved it yeah. Well when you go on holiday swimming. Everyone was upstairs rolling up their hair Yes. and . And you could swim, just dry it and then just pull it back. big scarf and you were made weren't you? Yes. That's right. Yeah. That's right. Yeah it was very useful. Yeah. Right. Right. We will go round this way or round that way? Cor look at that bas oh no it's fine She ain't got that problem yet. You wait till No. She's probably saying oh this is so boring this conversation but when she gets to our age that'll be the same. Well well she'll just she'll just go silver. She was silver when she was little so I suppose she'll go back to silver. Anything else you want to look at Dinda? No I don't think so. It's probably about quarter to Yes I expect it probably is. Hello love. We'll grab this casserole because erm Hopefully I won't what's her name wasn't sure if you'd get any more in of the next size up so Right. I thought better grab it while it's there. Mm. It's much, it holds much more than you'd think doesn't it? Yeah, they hold quite, yeah they do these, don't they? Yeah. just put it in a bag for you. seven pounds So's so's people don't think we've nicked it. Mind you they they know we haven't nicked it. Sorry my love, you want? Seven please. come back has it? Mm. I'm counting, I'm counting five isn't it silly they put on there one point five quarts? Yeah. They couldn't put on three, three pints. No, no. Yeah, that's right European import. Next week when I come in you'll have the next size up. Yeah Thankyou. Right. Thankyou Never mind get my hair done. Thanks a lot girls. See you again soon. Yeah. Your Christmas cards are fantastic. Oh good. Marvellous value, aren't they? They are yeah. You can't go wrong with them. No. No. Great. Thanks a lot love. I haven't left my Now then ma. You've gotta be a good girl and cross at the traffic island which is up there opposite . I'll go and see if they've got my wildlife book and I'll meet you in coming to collect me. I'll try not to. Bye. See you dear. Oh it's cold. if they have two minutes. Not now, later. Last Friday you were packed out. No because that chair is there she can't sit comfortable, hair dryer's sitting behind. But you were packed last Friday. You had got perms and heaven knows what on the go. Strange isn't it? One Still we had two ladies doesn't come. Ah. You see she was on telephone three o'clock she can't make it. Because she's going to take her daughter somewhere. It's alright for her but it doesn't suit us. Well not, not at that short notice. I know. Unless it's an accident or something when you can't No no no she's just going out to daughter. Thank you Turan, very much. Okay. Don't know what, don't know what they'll make of all that gobbledegook. bye bye love. Have a good weekend. See you soon . See you next week. This is the wrong side, they must have rewound it without meaning to. Well you're supposed to use side A it won't tape it doesn't matter . But it does to them, because they've got side A and side B on every tape. Yeah. And if they haven't got side side one tape two following I mean side two side, tape two side A following tape one side B, it puts them out a bit I should think are you going up the dog path? Yeah, come on . When, when did you get all this stock of perfume? Erm, four years ago, three or four years ago . . He went out on Christmas Eve, to find you present That's right, I remember that . and he got this job lot of perfume, and he said oh I can shot these out over the next few years, I said, oh if you really want to . Where does he keep them? I've no idea, in fact last year, did he give you some last year? I can't remember , Yes, he did . he said alright, I, I, I was in trouble because I forgot where I hid them. A miniature one. I had to look in the top of his wardrobe. You'll have to look somewhere. Take it all away, he probably gave it to girls at work as well or something. Yes. Well no, cos it would be too late after Christmas wouldn't it? Probably, no he doesn't give presents . Oh he does, he gives er his secretary and switch board girl a box of chocolates and a bottle of wine and but I do all the Christmas cards Yeah, I know you do and all the at work. Hold on Well I got to work all day and I'm still oh do you think, want me I can get you two I'll write you a list,. I don't have a list from him. No. Just have to try and remember Oh. Oh in that case this year I wouldn't mention it if I was you, you might get away with it. Then of course there's always, oh he left last Spring, oh. Exactly, yeah. His up in Leeds. Well exactly, so don't bother . People . And can you do a Christmas card for so and so, because he's been, he's been delegated to help me with my machine Yeah development and mind you I like Larry and Ken . Well Larry's, I mean he's a genius, so he is a bit awkward to get along with, erm not awkward to get along his sweet, but he's Peculiar. Yes. . Hurry up, be a good boy. . No. Said garden. I don't think so when I went to let him in he'd pulled himself up round the patio and looked as though he expected to be walloped for being silly he's taken us this morning. The trailers, the cars there, but I can't see, can't see another . Oh well now, when, when do you want to go into on Monday, just after lunch? Yeah, be great. Well, yeah,. . . Well it could be after we've walked him in the morning. Walk, yeah . So long as I shove the washing in the don't like it in there it's dingy, unless the sun's out. Yeah, shall we . If you'd rather. Mm. Give us more freedom in the afternoon if we need to go into Wokingham instead, do you want to go that way for a change or this, or through the woods? come on. I think maybe . Oh here's another dog I think oh it's Judy's, not it's not hello, haven't seen you for a long time, hello, haven't seen her for a long time, morning, good morning oh she's a sweetie isn't she? forgotten her name come and say hello, I haven't seen you for ages, so him once on the , good morning. Oh dear . Oh, oh dear. About time I did walk round. Have you? Yeah. Haven't got your wife with you this morning too much for her . No,Saturday , well she's got little jobs that she like's to do you know at home Yes. and so she's not come out. Yeah. I've forgotten her name . When, when she does come out she usually likes to walk round on the flat Yes. that's why I go round this way on Saturday's Yes cos I don't mind a bit of rough, mm. er, hoping over the , but she can't No. go up those slopes. No, no, I usually see you together on the or along the flat path, yes . That's right, yeah , on the flat That's right . Gotta walk on the flat ,. I've forgotten her name. Tessa, yeah. Tessa, yes Tessa, there's two Tess and Two Jess, oh dear, walk on the Oh are there? Yeah. Oh But, they did write to them on the counter and that that trouble, and she said that you know, that we can walk round there you know. Oh yes, oh, the rangers say the same thing, do what you've always done. Yeah. Just somebody on the Council with a lot of, a lot of , there's a They're just a person keeping an eye, I suppose they've got to respond to it you see and then they, they were, you know, they don't come and look . The ranger's always bring their own dogs. Mm. Always have Digger with them. Yeah yes it's eh, it's just someone going awkward you know. Oh that's right. Someone just That's right . does,, he came in one day and I said that we really don't travel a lot you know Mm. we just go to out here and, or the park or something like that Yes . and he said oh you don't go to do you? I said yes I go there n , most mornings oh he said it's a filthy place, a filthy place you know Who was this? er, the man that does my car Oh. you know, the chap from Yately Yeah. and er, I said what you mean Charlie, cor all dog's mess all over the place, I said it isn't, I, I said have you ever been and he said no I, I said well there you are, I said if you haven't been I said you don't know what it's like, I said you're talking about some old girl that lives on, in Little Sandhurst, who's got a thing about dogs and I said kicking up a lot of fuss about it, but I said the women's a dam liar He's,, yeah. and I think it's a friend of his. Too true. Yeah,. But it just shows how, here, I said, how embarr there's no different to any other place where ever you go. No, no oh I agree people shouldn't let dogs foul on the pavement and in shopping places and things, cos it can be dangerous, but out in the woodlands if it wasn't for all the animals we wouldn't have any green stuff, trees and bushes seagulls are up . No. No, it's that , oh. It seems, it seems calm enough doesn't it? Probably . Well we haven't got to go long for the shortest day. No. No. About three weeks . That's right, that's right. It's the first tomorrow. Yeah. . Yes. That's it, that's right, that'll be alright. Yeah I thought Get January over and we shall be alright. Oh I don't know February can be horrible sometimes Yeah , have snow in February before haven't we?. Yes , we had the, we had the six foot drop in February do you remember?were cos we live on a steep hill and Oh it's great fun . Getting up . Everybody comes from miles around, all the kids come and the parents last year, was it last year? Yeah. it look just like a ski resort all the bright jackets and the woolly hats and it was lovely, I mean they made it into, into an absolute skating ring for driving on Couldn't get your car up . Which, every, every thing went sideways, but it was such fun Mm. and the sun was shining and everyone had got pla plastic bags, anything they could get to slide on you know Oh yeah. they were going down our front lawn then down the, then down then down the roadway, cos it's a dead end you see, so there's not much , not much traffic oh I see, oh you're alright It's not, it's not when you get to the end of it then there might be a couple of . Yeah if you, if you're coming up you daren't stop the driver and there's things hurtling at ya, there's kids on sledges coming at you at about fifteen miles an hour and you'll have to try and drive around them and I'll stick to the old what they've got in California then. Oh yeah, erm, oh I'd rather have our climate I think. It get up over a hundred, people killed Oh it's horrible isn't it? it's a high death rate some . Yeah, yeah. Funny actually they couldn't, when the rescue people came they couldn't see where the damage was because of the dust. Really! Mm, it's, it's, it's on this mornings news Oh . This dust, this dust in California. I have heard, I have read about it . This dust , and a, what's it a hundred and fifty cars all piled up on top of one another Oh shit. and there's a lot of people isn't it, and they don't know how many's dead because there's so much dust they can't see. Oh how awful. . Oh that's awful. So. I wouldn't like it that dry. No. It's the same as that place in Australia where they haven't seen rain for seventeen years, I mean there's children who are grown up now at college have never seen a spot of rain, I'd hate that I'd rather have our, sometimes dismal climate. Well look how we get don't we, when er we've gone too long with shower of rain Mm, mm. you know the sun is nice That's right , and all that, but it the air get's so dry, that, that, you feel it wants dampening down. that's right, and when you do get the thunder storm well my family get into their bathing costumes and go out and stand in it because it's so lovely to have the rain. That's right. . Get away with that now. Yeah. oh well, we, really the weather's not to bad, you, you haven't got to be to sensitive about things have you, you've got to just take it enjoy the lot, enjoy Yes, you have. . Yeah, so far we've been very lucky in, in Britain I think, apart from the hurricane damage, once or twice, on the whole our climates is not bad. Oh, you . Yeah, but, you're mad getting worried to much, you know we had our green house all smashed up and everything and it's been upsetting , Yes . erm, when you think about after all . Yes, exactly. Mm . Exactly, you can't spend your life worrying about things, people are important. You've got to try and enjoy life. My wife's father er he said to me, cos he was, he worked hard you know, he had a tough life you know up in London and all that as, as a kid and that and he said to me what you want to do, enjoy everyday that you live, I said yeah, oh I said oh but you can't can you?, he said yes you can. I said but when you're doing the job that you don't like, oh don't do it he said don't do another one Yes. . He's got the right out . Too true. He's got the right out look. , but he died soon after that but he'd realised that he'd worked hard all his life Mm. you know Yes. really worked hard Yes. and at the end of it, see you always think that you're going on don't you? Mm, mm. and you think oh well I'll get my prize at the end. Mm. Mm. But, but, you don't know whether or not. You never think this is my last day . No, it can be can't it? . Go and enjoy every, every minute of it. Yeah, every days a bonus. Yeah, get, get the best out of it anyway . Yeah, you're quite right, or he's quite right. You don't have to worry too much about money do you really so long as you can manage with it. Ha Harry, Harry Secombe is said after his heart attack there's no pocket in the shroud. No. Well he's right, there are no pocket's in a shroud and he's seemed much happier since. Yeah, oh yeah. It's a shame with . That's what annoys me with erm these big company's you know, opening on Sunday's really, because er, you can only get the money, I mean they've only got a certain amount Yeah. I mean if they could open nine days a week, they couldn't get any more money out of me because No, you haven't got it. No. No. They're, they're , No, me neither . all they're doing is erm, where people do it on a Saturday they, they won't do their, go football or something and then go on a Sunday, now I think it's nice to have a, a day when nothing happens. Yes, when it's all quite all the shops are closed . . Apart from religion or anything else, you know. Yeah,. Yeah. It, I think it's nicer when, when it Oh yes, not necessarily religious grounds I agree with you, it's just nice to have one day a week where everything is peaceful. That's right, yeah, where as it's now they're all going to open up, gonna go chasing around Just be like a Saturday ,. we shan't know which day, there'll be no weekend, will we really No. it won't be a weekend. No And that it's all for money and they're doing alright, I mean they're already making so many you know, millions they're making aren't they? Well the big ones are, yeah. Yes. Oh yes. There's only one thing, it might mean more part time jobs for college leavers and things if they go to work on a Sunday in the big stores and they did, give them a foot up to start a job, then get taken on you know as . But the one's that's gonna be hit I think are, people like old Lionel. Yes. Mm. Because he, he's not doing all that good you see, and when er, he, he re he reckons on Sunday Yeah Sunday morning . . But I prefer Lionel, I'll go round the supermarket's but I'll shop at Lionel's on the way back. We do, we don't buy . Cos I can pick out his stuff or say I don't like the look of that one and he'll, he'll chuck it in the back. Mm, mm. And he'll often say to me look there's a fresh box under there, help yourself to what you want, i haven't opened that box. And, and if you complained about anything, er like we found, perhaps had a banana that's not been quite ripe, he'll give you two or three the next time you go in if you say anything about it Oh yes indeed, indeed , well only last week I said do need some flowers, come on Thursday they're fresh, I said I want them now Lionel, I hate to be without flowers in the room and he said well have two for the price of one, he would insist that I had two bunches for the price of one. Mm. He's very good. I think he's alright really, he, he, suppose as fair as he can be. Yeah. dogs. Yeah. Hello, good morning, good morning, all . Can't supermarket's gonna be open, I'll be getting their green grocery's down there and that really. Yes.. Told you it was a good idea to save throwing it. Brilliant. to it. You taking them to Wimbledon? That's brilliant. My daughter says when, when did you go to Wimbledon? . hold a racket . Good ball boy a girl, quite right, gosh she's the same shape as Rocket. They're all good dogs, but he doesn't give it back though. He does , oh yes he does. He might he might do. She, she, yeah she's given it,oh well, we've got to walk old thing I suppose, and then go to Lionel's, get some more fresh fruit. You see they're again there you don't get it in a packet you can pick out the grapes you want. That's right, yeah. You can pick them out yourself. Yeah. Oh I, I find that quite good, you know. And also, you know sometimes he's prices are much better than the supermarket's prices . Yeah , mm. You don't have to pay for all that fancy lighting. I've noticed that some of the apples you've been getting from Safeway haven't been very good. No, Lionel's are better. They're quite sour. Mm, well apples at this time of the year are a bit sour. Mm. I'm sure Lionel's wouldn't be. Crunchy, yeah, true. I haven't had to buy any fresh . Had enough on the tree . Oh, you grow your own, yeah. Yes. Well I have only got a few courts, Yes. . but in, in a month or two Yeah. picking and my wife can't eat much in the way of apples No. she get's tummy trouble Mm, yeah. and they say not to eat apples and oranges, er, at one time they told you to eat the lot didn't they apples a day keep the doctor's away . That's right, that's right See, I said it . Yeah. And apples aren't all that digestible at times. I think, and the acid . I think apples are very acid . Hello Tess, how are you. You've got a funny thing on you, you've got a think on your head, Rocket's got a thing on his ear. Ah, there's two. A wart. Yeah. Rocket's got one on his ear. Who? Rocket has got one on his ear. I Oh. And when he went for his injections I said to the vet can you snip that funny little growth and he said oh we'll wait until he's under, complete anaesthetic and then, it's only a little wart he said. ,. I didn't like it . take her and the, and the vet said the same, where that place is er a bad, a couple of years ago she had erm tick Yeah. we took her up to Norfolk and I think among the sheep Yes. Yeah. Yeah. and she had a tick and we took her to the vet Hold on. And, and,and gave her an injection, and that,wart at. So many . Oh how strange, good morning. Good morning. Good morning. Hello Maxie Max. Max come on. But there's also another little one I've noticed, I just under her eye Yes. er, with . Doesn't bother her does it?. No, no, she's not worried, but when we took her up recently, he, he, he said it's only a wart like that, he didn't sort of worry Mm , mm. and when the hair goes over it doesn't notice much. No, you can't really see the one on Rocky's ear at the moment, you can in some lights. When ya, when ya, when you're grooming him you can. And that's happened just recently has it? Yeah, yeah. No, last week . Well we took him , took him for his injection in October Yeah,three or four months . They'd have been there about a couple of weeks . But the little dog I went, I took a friend to collect her little dog from the vet it's had a double hernia, hasn't it, double hernia, it, it had a tremendous operation dear little thing, but she said he had a wart under he's eye and on it's own accord it dried up and dropped off. Oh did it? Mm. So, so Tessa's might It might be it's just under the eye Yeah, down below yeah. it's very tiny at the moment. but, we don't like the look of it, you know No. but eh, she, it doesn't seem to worry her it's not causing her any No. Rocky, doesn't worry him. It seems to be worry you . Oh, I'm careful with the brush , I'm careful, obviously with a brush and comb, I'd hate to, hate to jab it well we've got to go I suppose. Ah,. That German Shepherd having a good, oh he's gone, it's the oh dear Were lucky to have this place aren't we? Oh it's lovely isn't it, it's beautiful. Were lucky to you go and lo look round anywhere else, no where like Sanders No. because, what with this, the bridges and rivers Edge Borough. , yeah and, and then the recreation ground is, is, when the gypsies's are not there. Yeah, yeah, well the di the difficult is now in Simon's Wood, in the car park at Simon's Wood. Ah . Are they? Yeah, they've taken Only . over the car, as National Trust. I, I noticed they got shifted, they went to Menley, weren't it . Yes, some , some went into the doctor's surgery car park in Aylesmore, it's full of caravans I mean they're getting now that, that,before they go any where now. Mm. Mm. Yeah. . I think they'll find . Oh yes, it wouldn't surprise me at all. . I'm not so sure, touch wood. . . Touch wood . . Oh yeah. They're going, they're, they're travelling . Yes. The mess they must have made in . . Hundreds of pounds you know clear all Oh the wreck was incredible wasn't it? yeah. It was like a rubbish dump, and yet there's good old erm, grounds man, as soon as the had gone, they were down there, there was half a dozen of them and they got it cleaned in two days. Yeah, I notice that, Yeah. and it look's good, you know the . And the , where, where they've used all the, the woodland beside the lake as there toilet facilities Yeah. and they talk about dogs! Yeah. Gee, I know which I prefer. Yeah. Mm. Well, that's why people to do when they want to take that photograph of our dog that time, when that women Yes. kick up a row, I said you want to look at the dogs, just go outside and see all the old rubbish that get's chucked out there Yes. there, there's the Kentucky chicken thing Yes. whatever it is, and throw their cartoons and there's coca cola tins Yes. I, I, said if if there are , er people making far more Sure . mess I said than the dogs. Mm, too true. Yeah. Too true they do. Oh you, Dinda you've got to stand in one place. Yes. . . Honestly doing this wrong. Well we bring a ball for Rocket and he'll, he'll run to it and then he'll walk off and leave it, so we have to keep, we have to keep finding it. You have to run for it. Yes, yes. Yes. Nice chatting to you. Bye bye dear, take care they're a nice old couple. Mm. His wife's really slow now. Yeah. She hangs on to his arm and But they used to come into the shop. Oh yes, yes. They use to have a, is it a . She's a sweetie, she's always got a soft looking smile on her face, he's always smiling too please him Oh excuse me. Yes, he's worried were Not a lot on tonight, there's only a very apparently dropped. Really. So,. Well anything else is a let down. Take . Want to get a comedy or a thriller or a drama . I don't know ,. Dances with Wolves is coming out on video now. Ooh, do you think? Well, it's going to be released on the twenty seventh . I'd love to see that . . It's a shame cos if they sold the video . Well I may not, I may not find it as good, don't, they always show you clips as trailers of the best bit's. I think it's . But if it's got anything about . if they've got the American Indian culture in it then it will fascinate me, yeah . I think it has, it's , it's got a lot of . It's basically a love story between him and a, see he's a, he's a cowboy officer, and she, she's a Indian Squaw obviously, they fall in love and they all this sort of vote of comment on . Yes, yes. But there is a lot of erm, obviously the , the Indian ways and so on. Yes, well course I. The scenery and photography and everything suppose to be absolutely wonderful. Yes that's worth it . . A lot of our modern hol Hello Max. Modern Come on, no she hasn't got anything for you,. Come on, come on, come on. You know, it, it makes me smile sometimes when I say come and try the mo modern politic approach to your ache, ache's and pains, your ailments. . Most of it comes think so, I mean so much of it comes from the North American Indians that Mm. and right back into the er, the Keltic legions and the medieval monks. That's right, there's certainly a . That's what I said to you, your dad when he didn't want to take Aspirins for his restrained back, and him, don't believe in these drugs and I said look, if a monk gave you this he'd, he'd give you the bark of a birch tree, pound it up in a pestle and water and you'd think it was magic and you'd take it and you, relax your muscles, is that what it is?, I said yes that's what Aspirin is originally birch bark. Well of course they used to use the poppy, for people in great pain Oh yeah,. amputations, child birth gosh the leaves are thick. Mm, they're lovely aren't they? When ever I see these big leaves you know these big ones Yes. they remind me of when I was at school. Sycamore oh, sycamore and . used to get told to go out in the Autumn and we used to get told by the, used to get taken out by the teacher into some woods and you would have to collect the leaves . Actually I Could always , could always see if biggest, biggest leaves like these you know,. That is a Sycamore cos it isn't a, there isn't a conker tree around here that's Sycamore, there they are, that's it, that's a Sycamore tree, beautiful colour These are Dances with Wolves. Oh, it's in shop. If it's . If it's good, erm, can I say truthful background of the Indians . Well,actually and it might be based on a true story, don't know if it Do you remember when Vaughan was, Vaughan was doing his meditation Yeah. and he was trying to get in touch with a North American Indian, that a, thingamy in Wales was fixed up . Wonder what ever came of that. Always very hard to talk to Vaughan about things like that, because you asked a straight forward and he goes way, way, over the head Yeah, I know , he does versify. and within three seconds my brain just switches off . Well I try to . I, I just ask him if, and it, the question that I'm interested in the answer to, like how did it go? and, now he talks at me for an hour until Diane comes in and says enough Vaughany,cos she can see I sort of trying to edge away suddenly cross your legs, ouch . That's a good idea. She said to me just say to him like I do enough Vaughany, don't want to hear any more. I said no, I, I would hate to offend him because it's all so well meant being a mother in law you have to watch it. , honestly you couldn't be much worse than . Oh mother in law is. . She's just . I'm not buying her a present, I mean I'll chip in with a present for you for her and Mark if it comes, but we'll have to go to , but erm, you know, she,. As a person, you know, I'd never have any time . Yes, yes, I mean you never, she lives in that great place and she's got no money , they're not, they're not her presents are they, they're from Diane. No, of course, of course . So, I tell you what, if, if we do end up spending Christmas at gonna give me the present I got to Di and said thank you Di for giving Stella the Christmas present . It so . I mean as an acquaintance I could tolerate her but I . I couldn't I'm afraid. Well, could do, what I can't forgive is that she was so spiteful to my daughter, she's a sun shiny little sole and she's so full of love for everybody she's so generous Why was she? she didn't want Vaughany to get married again. Oh. She used to say what Diane, I've never heard of a Diane, after they were married this . And when anyone treats my daughter like that I find it very hard to forgive, I know it hurts my kids, I'm much more up in arms than if they hurt me. Remember that first Christmas when she put the cat among the pigeons by saying to me your husband told me that he can't really afford he's flying because you spend all his money, when I, when I've been backing him, saving money for his aeroplane and his lessons and What did you say to dad?did you say that to dad didn't you say it . But I thought she was stirring it you see and so did Diane. What did you tell . I didn't believe her You didn't, you never . But he said, I said it as a joke when she was asking me about my flying and I said I don't do as much flying as I'd like to, I've, I've got a wife to support and she takes all the money. But I said I am the money I gave him his first flying lesson, I paid for it, like I bought his first three cars. . I excused myself and went to bed I think but she repeated it so solemnly you see not as, say somebody saying a joking sort of way. Yeah, good stirring . And it was just after Frank had left her and gone to live in that place in . Does, does anybody know what he's doing,. Don't know, last time I asked Diane she said oh he's, he's living with this machine he's got in What machine? some magic machine. What machine? Magic machine? Yes. What kind of machine? A machine he's designed, I don't know for what purpose, I didn't dare ask, I was going to ask Vaughan . It's not to, it's not to isolate gamma rays . Probably, but he was hiding he wouldn't come out because he said that the men from outer space were after him. It's funny you know, I've reading, I'm reading Silence of, Silence of the Lambs at the moment and er, you know, it's got in there, a lot of er, er, mentally ill patient's have got this idea that, men, men from Mars have . Well I said to Diane you know, I didn't laugh, I didn't think it was funny, I thought it was sad and I said but he needs help, if Vaughan's you know, he's got two sons, but Mark's a bit hopeless and he was at Oxford anyway, I said surely somebody should go and get him some some treatment, sanitation. Yes. You can get cranks, you just believe in flying saucers and a quite happy harmless, but, I think they need checking on to make sure that they are happy with the life they're leading it bothers me a lot So where is he now? Well he's still in Manchester I think. Doing what? Is he living with, living in a . I think he's in lodgings. Is he? But of course he got half the value of Trafford Hall, which was quarter of a million? Mm. Something like that, eighth of a million, it'll do me anyway. Oh listen to that bird, isn't it beautiful it's a Thrush. Well . That's alright degradable. Oh isn't it beautiful, he must think it's Spring. . Oh it's gorgeous oh you beautiful bird.. Oh,in't he? Like a spring sound. I hope they don't start nesting and then get all there . have a good time wouldn't you? Yes Yes , the . this is, this is the end of November do not build your nest. . Oh it's beautiful. . Really doing his nut isn't he? Perhaps that is his er, this is, this is my place,. Yes, there he goes yes it was a Thrush You must come and try and hear the nightingale's again again , you haven't . Oh, would you . Would you try, you're supposed to try wish, wish for luck when you tread in it you know. Luck come on. Ooh, where did you go? oh don't look like that, no one 's gonna hurt you baby, might smack your bottom once or twice. Come Come on. Come In you get. Good boy, good lad , oh that Thrush song was a bonus wasn't it? Wasn't it gorgeous? I should buy some bulbs and ge , oh look at the pretty reeds. Oh aren't they lovely. Aren't they sweet. Haven't got enough with me. Hello, how are you? Fine thank you. I thought you'd gone away. . Gone away to the funny farm, yeah, they let me out last week. Oh. That figures. help them out you see. That figures. Getting withdrawal symptoms you see, I only . Do you, if you don't sell Well,, all the fruit, if you don't sell all the fruit cakes. smell of them. Yeah, smell of the fruit. Now, er hello Ed, hello love, he's doing a starling job in your absence, isn't he?, isn't he . I'm warning . . He can't leave the place alone, everyday he's here , . grapes no not one twenty, yes, Keith goes through them like a hot mouth through butter. These look drier than the ones at the back, it must be the latest one, or are they all the same? No, all the same. That's alright my love you like grapes as well Dinda. I do . Oh look, a little baby one, given you voucher I'll just have half a dozen for you. That's alright I ain't got nothing to pop back. have got loads in the garden. . Erm, couple of, couple of pears. There we are. Couple of pears for a fruit compact, oh that look's a beauty You don't normally come in on a Saturday . I usually come in every day for something. Yeah . Especially now I've got so many . So many people on weirdo diets. An iceberg, four salad tomatoes, some cress if you have it, I did, I did get banana's, and they haven't disappeared yet, oh look the clementine's are in Dinda isn't that beautiful, you could candy that, wouldn't it be attractive, candid to keep There we are, er four seventy one . Oh aren't they whoppers . Two. I say,. Yes. Nice and plenty, them . I've, I've got about four in the bottom of the fridge. Oh. Er what'd I say, cress, got some fresh cress for Keith's salad. . Lot's of iron in that. What are they in, in the bunches . The bunches , mm. So if I grab That's it. a bunch like that. That's it, then it goes in my bars on the window sill. I've got half an aubergine and I'm not going to make a veg pie anyway, it's a beauty isn't it. No, I know, I'm just showing how much . Aren't these beautiful. They are aren't they. Small and perfectly formed, like me. That's a . It is, it is I have to polish them every day, aha, are you upset? Yeah. Yeah. He's, he's got I think, I think you should stop fondling it now. . He's got a university degree you see, so he knows what I'm talking about, when I say Oh well . beautiful. there you are. I didn't know you had it I don't know about it. I didn't know you had a degree until the other day and Lionel said oh Oh yeah, yeah, I've got enough money to . give me . Yeah. Oh I see. Forge his signature. And hope it doesn't come to any more than that, otherwise I shall will be in your debt . But I can't add , I mean I've got a degree but I might not, can't add. I've noticed you always used a machine . . Is that it, I don't want the veggies, grapes, pears, iceberg, toms, cress, I think that's the lot . Do you want a bag?. Well it wouldn't come amiss, though . I'd hate to drop the tomatoes half way across the road. I've already dropped . You want to drop the tomatoes. Oh it's fun . . Splat. Part of the fun. I always leave . Yeah, two eight one, that's about right. . There are. Thank you love. No you're not supposed to put that on top of the grapes. Look dear, don't give him . You take the bag I'll take the money . No, I'll take the money, you take . I've got this the right way round haven't I. Come all the way from Amberry you see just to get, just to get stuff from you. . I. . . Keep a pound coin with me. Do you want a few erm chestnuts sweetheart, you sure? . You off sweets, eating two chestnuts instead. Absolutely, no, I'm , I'm already. Thank you Ed Bye . See ya . Have your cup of coffee now, while it's quiet. Yeah. Yeah. Take care. . How much money have you got on you? About one pound How much do you think a yo-yo is? Oh gosh, that's good for you, you know it's good for your co-ordination. Cos I asked in here a few weeks ago and they said . My friend in here. If they're gonna be anywhere, they're gonna be around here. Ten, twenty, forty fi , hello love. Hello love. Have you got any yo-yo's in yet? No we haven't, were Oh . waiting for them to come in. I'll ask again on Tuesday and see if they can just send me. . Who's it for you? Yeah. No it's not actually it's for my, my young nephew. Oh. Oh, oh, oh. a fuss. It's ever so therapeutic. Yeah. Yeah. I just saw somebody put it on them on the . I used to be quite good at and I'll ask again on Tuesday when I ring. It's supposed to be very good for you. I used to be very good at this, I use to . So did I Yes, you did, yes. We'll put it on the list and I'll try on Tuesday for you. . So that's all I've got with me after I've been to . Well, you've anyway, so. If they're more than eighty, I, I can't have it anyway. So you want to keep Yo-yo,. Oh . I'm all ready if I got my handbag, but when I start walking because of the cars being broken into I don't carry a handbag, you see, I just carry money in my pocket. Oh, there's a lot had their cars broken into . I've had mine done twice, mine done twice, mm, the police were up the other day lying in ambush, and I'd spotted them and phoned the local police station and said there's men lurking in the bushes of are they policemen?, she said yes madam, they're policemen. I don't, I thought they looked to they looked to clean and, and well groomed Yeah. to be erm, sort of scroungers. Right, it doesn't pay to leave your handbag in the car. No way. Certainly doesn't. It isn't the money because the insurance company pay me back the money Yeah, yeah. the car insurance mends my windows, but it's, it's your bank books, and your credit cards I know. and your driving licence I know. your insurance, all those little things you know, and you don't Cos there's been a lot done, they've all done it left their bikes in the car . Yes, yes. Well I was in the pet shop tie round your neck . Ah, but they're again they . but then they could hit you on the head if they saw you've got it with you. . Mind you I've always got a dog and a stick . as a puppy Oh yeah. . Yes. Stick him on the end that. It's true. You want to get one of those waist belts and put it under your . In the Summer I have one of, . Used to be , I bought it in here , Yeah , remember the yeah , shoulder-less purses on, on a yeah, yeah . well they are now, my daughter now has a proper bum bag, but this was just a school, purse for school, just for break time. Oh yeah, yeah. And I use that in the summer, when I don't want big pocket's Yeah, yeah, good idea . I think . Keep your hands free I must have washed me hands . You have to think when you've got, like me with my two little grand daughters, you know . That's right , you need three hands.. True, if I'm, if I know I want, might want something extra, I, I, stick a fiver in, this pocket Yeah. If I loose it well, it's, hard cheese. Yeah. It's better than er Yeah. better than this thing . cos my daughter you see, I get so cross if anyone's at my car, I'm likely to go for them. I nearly caught a man once erm, but I turned the whistle to the dog and he must of heard me, he dropped, into his car and drove off, if I could of got the dog in faster I'd, I'd chased him, my daughter said, no you stand back and take no not , but I'm not like that you see. No, you think why should they get away with it . Yes, I'd whack him on the head with me stick or something. Yeah. And of course I'd get accused of assault. Oh, you'd be the one in trouble. Oh yes, oh yes, I would, I'm sure I would. Thank's a lot girls. . Are you looking at they big doggy? I was looking at the scalectrix. Scalectrix, that's the next thing is it? Oh look, come on, yeah Christmas lights are up not a lot mind you, a few bare bright bulbs. Mm, mm, shop What is that patch for? I don't know.. . I don't know my dear. Hello baby we weren't long were we? Haven't seen Dan in there for a long time, I thought he'd left Lionel and gone off to get a a highly lucrative job somewhere You don't somehow expect to see a, a young man with a university degree working in your local green grocer do you? Mm, what's his degree in? I haven't asked him, I didn't like to. They must have been high up in the tree,leaves. Is that a Beech tree? Yeah, that's a Beech tree Where's the . Beg your pardon, you're right I didn't recognise it, it hasn't got any leaves on. I beg your pardon, it does look like a Beech bowl doesn't it? Yeah it does,. Yes, you're quite right it is. No up where the other's are, where they've just hidden in the bushes, I found sum brand new ones on Wednesday or Thur , after we had the heavy rain Why we going this way? . Oh, I'm very fond of the meadow walk get any more wild ,actually, I suppose there are rabbits and things up here. But there are. We should come one day at dusk and the bunny hoppers will be out, or of course very early in the morning. Why, you wouldn't come very early in the morning. . . brooks lovely isn't it? The what? . Oh yes. I don't think I've ever been to , quite pleasant . Surely that's the , that is the house where Queen Elizabeth the first spent all her girl hood. I've no idea. perhaps it was burnt down and re-built or something didn't seem at all tudorish did it? . . You think all the big houses in London that are now official Government all along the strand big private houses, Savoy Palace, The . Mm. Way back in the thirteen, fourteenth century. Mm. And your name sake Barnard of Bolier that's his palace opposite on the other bank of the Thames. Mm . I'm still amazed about eighty gardens though. Eighty gardens, oh made me laugh. Well that's not what amazes me, eighty gardens. Eighty gardens, but then as a place that size, and the didn't have any machinery don't forget everything had to be Well I expect now, they've got about five . I should think they probably still, in the, in the high season, I should think they probably still need fifteen, twenty Oh look,tractor . I think it still belongs to the Duke of Devonshire because he was interviewed at the end wasn't he? Mm. And he said they have to systematically sell something to keep the place up. Mm. But if they can use that er beautiful water Ah right. to generate their own electricity, save them a bomb and they can sell some as well. I know a lot of people say they shouldn't Good idea . have houses that size, but I think it's an awful shame to let our heritage go. Yeah, I agree, if people did . I tell you another thing that amazes me, how any one with a Sovereign right,were a Sovereign in those days, could have given up the palace of Westminster which is so beautiful,palace, together I suppose reigned after the Duke of is it? . It was only built erm, what a couple of hundred years ago wasn't it? What Buckingham Palace? Mm. I don't know, I didn't realise. At Kensington, Kensington palace, but the palace of Westminster I think is the most beautiful building Mm. and of course they had the Thames which was their main highway, Thames was much easier to use than Well that was Buckingham Palace was er . Oh yes. . Oh yeah. . I think Buckingham Palace is lovely compared to Westminster Palace, beautiful old stone and the, and the shape of it and it's windows, it's beautiful huge of course, there again the court then had loads and loads of er, there were ten . .. And a lot of the Government, Governing people of the country Oh it is a bit chill and damp isn't it? Did you mention anything to your dad about wanting to watch Dances with Wolves? Ah, I wouldn't of imagine for one second he would want to watch, so it might be better if I buy the video and see No, no , you can watch it at your why you gonna get something heart's delight. something more adventure, I don't want to buy it, I may, I may not be that keen on it Well you know, in that case you'll have to wait until he goes away somewhere for the evening. Didn't like Fantasia, where I can listen to the music and watch them. Oh, we'll see what's going on, have a look . I would like to see Dances with Wolves he'll probably be asleep any way Dinda. He puts the Variety Performance on he'll go to sleep. Mm He's actually been out of his armchair today long enough to erm, spend ten minutes putting a washer on the hand basin in the loo. Oh, And you could of done that last weekend,. Should of done, yeah I owe a letter to Dida. Mm. I don't know whether I owe one to Madge or not, probably I do. Mm.. She owes me a letter, thank heavens, somebody who owes me a letter instead of vice versa. Can't remember whether I owe Madge a letter or she owes me one. Here dog. He's probably having a visit run like bat out of hell good gracious. Oh look. Oh sorry. Hello magpie, there's two of them Ooh come on, come try again. . Are there's a playful one coming, ah, been called away what a shame. He's a devious one . Border Collie, a sheep dog. . I read somewhere that if you have a Collie Yes . Dog you must make sure that they're occupied Oh yes. cos they're such smart little dogs, They get into mischief. that erm, they have to be occupied doing Yes, yes. They are, aren't they, they really are very smart. Oh yes, well look how Kelly could get. Oh yeah, they're like a hyperactive child. That's right, very much. Kelly was alright, as long as he was doing things, but he wanted to be doing things all the time. He had so much energy even when he got old, he had so much energy. Yes. Remember when he went up to the aeroplane, Jim only hate to haul him away and slap him once and he learned, he didn't go near an aeroplane any more Mm. kept right away from the aircraft. Mm there's a teddy bear again, gorgeous. . . We'll have to say hello to her she's, oh yes you're so, oh, oh, oh my goodness, what have you done to your . Ah it's what. She is isn't she? When you gonna go off, ah, ah, ah, watch it, that's a lady, watch yourself. What do you want the lead? You need look like that. It's when one is on the lead I think the other's feel the disadvantage , Get on a bit . he should be about eight and a half, he's rescued. dog you are, you're horrible. It's not like him to grumble at a bitch. You're horrible Only nine months . Thought she was pretty young, she's going to be whopping when she's Yeah. Your horrible. Dad was that? What? Above your head. . Here then,get a bit too cold for them wouldn't you? Yes, yeah. She's longing to go for a gallop isn't she? Oh yes, yes. Oh, all full of energy aren't you love, she's a beauty, what's her name? Topsy . Topsy . Suit's her doesn't it? She just growled and growled and growled, didn't she. . . She Look for a new home for her now that's the trouble Dad. You what? You've got to look for a home for her now, cos we're er, moving home . Oh no , oh you can't keep her? Not really, no, were going to America. They let British come into America Yeah, it's the accommodations. Yeah. Come on girl. Not the other way round of course. No, no. Dogs from Britain can practically live anywhere Yeah. Hel hello Topsy, hello Topsy, I'll shall squeeze your feet if you do it any more, I'll shall squeeze your paws and you won't like it. Is that a good way of stopping her doing it? Mm, I always use to do it with my German Shepherd. Yeah, but they don't . Cos, cos they're big enough, if they even in love, they can knock a child, well they could knock a grown up flat on your back. She'll not be too . Yes, no squeeze the paws , We got , not, not too hard for her but enough so that it's uncomfortable yeah. and they hate it, and after, after a week, after a week of having their paws squeezed every time they jump up,stop . I've a lot, a lot of my friends have got big dogs and they say oh they will jump up and I say squeeze her paws, it usually works Mm. in a week, ten days, something like. I'll have to do that. They're a very , but they can still knock you flat on your back. Oh yeah, well she's had a, a some old chap who was walking around here, she just ran past him Yeah. and she just caught the back of his leg . Oh yeah , behind your knees you can. He just crumpled up. I say she's only doing, she's only playing around. Oh yes, it's all affection. Mm, I'll have to try that with the feet, come on. Bye, bye. Do you want to play?, want to play?get it, get it, Come on. get it, get it oh play Rock. . Look. . Another seven months. Seven months. And they can't keep her? Pardon . Moving , moving to America. Oh what a shame, have they got somebody to take. Well I'd imagine they'd go too there, and they're still looking for someone . Oh,. You'd like to take her would you? . When she was trained, stop jumping up and things she'd be a nice dog. , if I wasn't at work I'd take her like a shot. Yes, so would I. Wee, get it. But erm Get it. , you should have told him to put an advert in . Have ads in where? I don't think they're been yet. I would imagine . Where you going? Into the dog walk. Come on I don't know if the ranger's put any seed down or what, but they all seem to like, they all seem to like the smells round here After you. You be a good lad now? Good boy. Whoops. Good boy. God it's carpeted with leaves now. Haven's seen Sam. No. Or Davey . Good boy, hurry up Good boy Rocket . What, no, no, you'll try and go get back across the meadow, I expect. Probably will. Hello. Hello, alright I wouldn't trust those two any further than I can throw them. My instincts straight away. Mm. You reckon, you reckon they're Bonny and Clyde do you? I wouldn't be surprised if they were the sort of people who had the stolen bicycle down in the bushes. Oh dear, they haven't go a dog, but they went on the dog walk! Ah. again today. No, no, no, what every you like , , if you like dog crap on your shoes. yeah,at home shoes off. No Rocky, no, no, no What, what, maybe he wants to, maybe he wants to you know what. Oh come on, you know him, he'll just takes us up the woods for the hell of it. Honesty. Come on then, come on come then, be a good boy, hurry up . He's eaten another dish of biscuits. Cleaned out his dinner bowl and eat more biscuits. Foxes you after is it? Good lad, good lad, good lad. Hurry up. Good boy good boy good boy. I'll have to try that. You looking at your favourite tree again? Gorgeous isn't it?, beautiful tree. Strange how the lebanon should be cover with them isn't it? Chance of bright spells this afternoon, getting horrendously murky. . Oh look over there, it's, it's . black, except for the occasional, little topping of gold. Yeah,is it? Try and get one of these gadgets, and see if we can er get the nightingales next week. There's I don't suppose the radio part of this is put in then,. I'm not messing with it, just recording playing back. . Not that I like walking around with music blasting anyway, I'd rather listen to the birds. Mm oh, I'm warm now after that walk. Good. . No sign of Sam, ah here he comes, hold on then, the dogs gonna have a talk. Your friend's coming, your friend's coming, your friend's coming, look, look who's that, who's that, who is it? Who's down there, who is it, who is it, who is it?. Hello Sam, hello, hello, hello, hello. He don't know who to say hello to. Hello Sam. He don't know who to say hello to you or me or what . Three of us he's gonna have a widdle, that'll sort all the problems out, hello. How's , how's your eye. Keep still a minute, let's have a look, come here, Sam, Sam Hey, Sam, Sam , come here. Keep your head still a minute we want to look at your nutter. It looks much better doesn't it? Getting your fur fur back. That's right, you see to him, go on you see to him, you see to him,. Trouble is Rocky, Rocky's knackered from his walk and so is . , hello Davy . That's great , Rocky, Rocky's panting a bit, seems a bit tired but Sam's all fresh. He has, he hasn't been very active actually There is an unfair advantage here He was looking sleeping in the car today, that's what it is he's just woken up. Cos I looked . He's been asleep in the car . Yeah. Oh, cos I looked him up and I thought Yeah, yeah, both coming back , now just had a bald patch. Yeah. There's been and that, he's been out this morning as well up to Hill and oh up to the Ridges as well Good gracious. should be tired. Oh they do up the Rid up the Ridges? Er, I didn't see any up there no . Simon's Wood? Nor Simon's, no I was in there yesterday there was none in there yesterday . Oh, they've, they've then, good. Cos I think they'd gone some time ago. What a shame they've missed their walk together. Yes, still, you just going back now are you? No, we came a bit earlier because it was so dingy. Just done the circuit, he has. Oh I see, I did the front of my car that's why I was a bit late, I usually I'm a bit earlier than this. We met er, a beautiful old English sheep dog, seven months old and they've got to find a new home for it, because they're off to America. Ah, that's a shame . Well I said they're except British dogs in America. Dog's from England can go anywhere, it's just coming back in, the problem . Come back in yes, the erm And he said yes but it's, it's the accommodation we've got, maybe it's a Company move and they've given them an apartment or something, seven months old, you know, that big, so by the time It's a shame isn't it?, she's grown up, she's don't they? Yeah, yeah, beauty, beauty. Still, they might hear of somebody who wants one . Oh yeah, you know . Well I should think they'd probably advertise . at the vet's and so on, you know. That's right, yeah. . . It's a pedigree, weren't he? Yes. She was a, she was a pedigree . Yes, Topsy, Topsy . I was just looking at that tree, the way it's stunted up there, I haven't really noticed before. Oh yes. That's where, where it fell off in all the hurricane. That's right, yeah. That's topped. it's top , there's another one in there. Mm. . Plenty of good firewood isn't there? Mm. There is. A bit of it has rotted now though . Yes. It'll still, it'll still burn nicely It's got to be . Oh it's still burn alright. Mm, I'm surprised they . Lovely smells to when it's burning. Mm, it is nice. And of course the erm, those sort with all the redden in them, muddly blue flames and they keep spitting and given pretty, pretty pictures, it's gorgeous. Yeah, Pine they do that don't they? Yeah. They do . Yes, we have to trim our Pine trees occasionally, the firs, and ooh they smell beautiful on the bonfire . Even ones on the , mm. I had a go at that didn't I one year? Yes, you did . Made a real mess of it . Mm,. And she did very well . Cutting down trees . Yeah. in Summer big ones like that, sort of, I, I had to use the a chain saw. Yeah. Joyce said oh we'll be alright this winter. Yeah, yeah. . I've got out of the way of, I've often said to Dinda, you know, I wouldn't mind going back to an open fire in the winter. No, I wouldn't I miss it now after all these years. Oh never mind, when I was first married, it was carry coals up two flight of stairs to start with. Oh . It was me who did it, not my husband. He use to sit there and say, is it getting cold in here? and muggings I use to get up and feed the fire and go down and , I, I can't believe it when I think back you know. Well you do exactly the same thing now , Yes , it's obviously in your nature isn't it? yes . Turn the heating up I should think. Yeah, yeah, you know if there's anything to be done, up she goes and does it. Getting cold . Yeah, they told . Yeah, that's right. You know,. Well we used to take it in our stride, I mean I grew up with an old Victorian house with potent fires and you had keep the fires going either wise in the winter it was bitterly cold, it was nice and cool in the summer coming out of the heat. Yeah. But in the winter you needed the kitchen range and the dining room and drawing room needed fire then, and if anybody's was ill we had fireplaces in the bedrooms of course. Mm. But since I slept in, what used to be the maid's bedroom , I was always I say, when you look at those days you wake up and . that's right, yeah, yeah. I pull them open and do that now, I must admit. Old, old sash windows . I wouldn't, I wouldn't last five minutes . I need my heating . Oh,you would , you would. Well not now. With sash windows, with the wind howling round them. But, it's, it's funny though you didn't they? Stone floors down stairs . Would you know, we didn't have any serious illnesses as children, the only place we had a bit of warmth, used to have a valour lamp in the bathroom in the winter, had a valour lamp in there to keep the chill off . Remember those ones we used to have, the yorkstone, did you ever, ever had one of those? With the round . , the valours were , yeah, with, with the little er, shiny . handle with a bit of erm, It used to have a handle come right over when you lifted it up . That's right, yeah, that's it, yes , and about that tall with a sort of round top and a slim bit and then legs, four legs on the bottom, That's it four legs, yeah. yeah, yeah. I had for years. Yeah, yeah Making you run around is he Sammy? Done him the world of good . You're gonna sleep tonight aren't you Rocket?. I like the friendly nudge up the tail. He'll give you a kiss . Come on Give me a kiss. I'm honoured. He's a beaut. Mm, good old boy aren't you? mm. I haven't seen him stand still in one place for this long for ages. No I haven't. , it must be almost ten minutes . He'll make up for it. In fact Rocky's gone, Rock where you gone? Come Rocky . Funny he gets the wonder lust when he meets Sam he goes off doesn't he? . Mm. Yeah, he thinks cor I'm off now Sam . Well they usually go off together you see. Mm. Go off, on, on forays together don't they? . How old is Sam?. Gone fox hunting I think . How old is Sam? Erm he's about seven, but I'm not sure how old when I first had him, cos he's a stray, a stray . Yeah . Mm . I think he's about under a year when , Yeah . not much more than a year, but they've . He's about seven then. Well he's much younger than Rocket who must be we reckon, no Rocket must be about nine or ten , oh. well he should only be eight and a half, I mean they told us he was three and a half when he was rescued . well we'll call him nine , he must be about nine. They told us three and a half, but there again a lot of rescue people do cut the ages of their dog, but, but, our, our two vets agreed he was around three and a half, between three and a half and four, look at his teeth and his coat and his bones . His eyes . Had him five years so. Yes, he's probably about Yes, between eight and a half to nine, we just in a dogs life a year, is seven of ours . Seven years . Yes. Mm. But, George's still just a great puppy aren't you? Still a great puppy, yes, yes. Rocket's fifty six, catching up on me. Oh there's Sheba, she's aged, by Jove she's aged , German Shepherd . I mean Roxanna at her age wasn't still very full of life , . she's only a pup. some dogs do . aged quite rapidly, we were lucky with ours cos at the time I couldn't, you know thought she was about twelve , She's very well looked after , till she was about twelve she was quite . ever so bright, yes , they were playing and chasing sticks and . I think it depends on the size . Thirteen she was . . Actually she's not simply long coated like Roxanna was she's over coated if anything. Yeah, she is, very, very long . She is, she is , Very seldom you see a dog like that. She's very heavy and the size of her feet. Mm, mm. In fact she's a throw back, it's as almost as though she's got some some Alaskan type dog in her Mm. . or Husky type dog. You don't see many like that . No, no no she's not quite full of big boned, but by Joe , they've both stopped,, I don't know what they're looking at . . They're probably listening , listening for the foxes or something. Heard something over there. ,. Obviously they heard something. I'd have to take down the shore,shore tomorrow . Yeah. Saves leaving them in the car, probably only for about two hours, I don't know if it's better leaving at home or taking with me, there's . Don't you , don't you find he'd rat he'd much happier sitting in the car? He seems to be, yes Than left at home, where you've gone away somewhere without him . Well I don't really know, cos I don't know what he's like at home, you see by himself, huh. No, exactly . But my dogs have always, much rather come shopping with me and sit in the,. It's a short time though isn't it?. Yes. It's not very long, see I say, what . Oh I don't know the supermarkets the best part of an hour this time of year. I suppose it is,. But, oh he's quite happy , he'll curl up in the back of a car, but when I come home and he goes so berserk if I've left him at home, I know that he's been watching and listening and waiting for me all that time. He usually sits up at the window . That's right, yeah , . but he knows where your car is you're not far away. Yes that's true. I think they work it out that way. . At least you can let him, give him a run. Yes I can down there, yeah,. Yes, Mrs up just behind isn't round by the air field . Oh yes, there's the air field there isn't there? Yes. I've never been to the air field. Oh, that's where we usually end up I'm afraid. . air field. Well we go down there for all the permits and things anyway you see, recording there with the documents the P F A. . Look at his tail going, no don't Sam, leave it, Come on. don't kill anything else. Sammy come on,, come on. As long as it's not a fox . Yes, we can do without another fox fight. , come on Sammy Sammy This morning we heard two thrush's singer their spring song. Yeah, it was amazing. Beautiful Singing their hearts out. Was they? Beautiful. Think it's spring I suppose this weather. , they, remember last, end of last winter when it got mild after the cold spell, they were building their nests and then we got all that cold weather again, all the, all the fledglings were dead. They died . Nests I found when I was clearing the garden, put the little eggs in and they'd all gone cold. Yes, yes. . But, you think they had most of them do don't they? Yeah. They heard the geese know when to fly North, and when to fly South and navigate by the stars and by the lay lines in the earth, it's just isn't it magical? . No, no way, we used to, we used to, I mean ancient man did , oh they did, yeah They navigated by the, by the ley lines , that's why you find monuments built up on hills so they could stand in the middle of the of nowhere and they could see a, they could either feel it through their feet Yeah. where the, where the main lines were, or they could look and see erm, what do you call them, those groups of trees on tops of hills they used Oh I know. there's one near Shoreham. . Oh,places like that. Oh yeah. They could see them and navigate by them, if they haven't got the sun or the stars, yeah, yeah, we've lost all that of course, as we got what we called civilised, we've lost all those old skills. . Yes . Yeah, . I was stationed right on the Pilgrims Way Really?, oh. Mm, mm,. , I erm, Oh yes. I tried to phone the , now who was it I saw,on a Saturday wasn't it, a Saturday, ah, it's still in there Yes. and I, I went home, phoned them and he said well, I got , there's nobody there, try he said between five and six that's his lunch hour , so I phoned, couldn't get, oh no I, I thought well it'll be too if I don't get so I took it home Yeah. and I tried all weekend trying to get only there from five to seven, and I got him after five o'clock on Tuesday Yeah. and er, I told him all about it, and I said I don't know what happened to I spoke to somebody last Monday and he was coming down immediately for it, so he sort of said, well I'll come down for it, there's a different one, he got , and he came down for it and he took it, so er,. So, who, you took it out of the bushes. Yes, I took it out of the bushes get . Yeah, it's gonna get rusted or, or Well somebody take it the owner wanted it back. Yeah. So he's gonna look all the way through the records . So it wasn't the bicycle people that, that the two, that they were laying in ambush for, must of been the car thieves they were laying in ambush for. . four hours . Suppose they would, yes, yes. No, I think, I, I, he said, well, what with these, these he said, this is probably why he couldn't get down Yes. probably forgot it. Oh. So anyway , probably hear a name who it was. Mm, mm . Yes, I hope so too, but, I have the feeling that the next, the next time we looked I don't remember it having green peddles the first time you found it Oh. Sam found it. . I mean they were bright green, and I thought it was a different bike, I didn't even noticed the second time if it was a ladies or a man's bike. Well it looked as cos when I picked it up, there's a sort of thing was blown over, Yes. so yes it could of been, yes, a long time actually. Yeah, yeah. . It wasn't muddy or rusted or anything. No, no, it's got a bit of rust around the cha bit on the chain Yeah. but as you say, we haven't had much rain, have we , No, no . it could have been . Don't know, lost them both. They've gone off together now , another one joined in now, hello. Hello. Don't know where's Sam gone? Sammy. I'd better grab Rocket. Come on quickly. No that's Rocket. Sam. Probably Rocky come on. Ah could well be, we might see, we might see you tomorrow . I don't think, I don't think we'll be at the air field tomorrow. Come on. Have a nice day at Shoreham. Sam where are you? Great, enjoy yourself, bye, bye. Rocket come. Come on Rock, Rocky. I thought it might of been a women that was . . You were going to help with the woman . I'm going to do my good deed for the day. Ah that's nice of you get Stella something in here. . Why that thing at the front, that's a pretty arrangement. As long as you wrap it . Wasn't, fondue set. A fondue set, a set of glasses a cuddly toy. A hot tray. Look at these then Well at least she'll be able to sit with it on her lap aha I like it No loitering, don't loiter woman. I'm too much help to the police I don't think they've, I don't think they'd move me on. Are you loitering with intent? I wouldn't look I like those, I wouldn't mind those in our little cottage, I like the Chintzy colours. I keep looking at suits and have ah, erm, completely unzippable covers for cleaning. Oh that's nice and warm. Came out the end of last month didn't it? Or the middle of this month . No this month . I got my . . Oh it's got lot's of animals in this one . things that happened to them while they were making the African Queen and, they've turned into a story . Mm, I think we should get something a little less heavy. A little less heavy? Ah. up there so that must be the . . Well if you ask they might have some just brought back. Can you get it down to read it? No, it's . It's stuck there. That's stuck there .. Oh no, It's sort of rather plain cream on the back Well done mum,. No sweetheart. Well why did it fall off then? Oh honestly I didn't touch it, I didn't . . Erm. I've been mucked up, mucked it up completely now. I didn't done anything honestly I didn't. Got a nail? Oh I see they stick into the felt. Not very well . They've got all things on the back. Oh that's it's like, oh sorry. . Don't touch any more tape. Look. Oh it's . Well I, I wouldn't mind watching that, yes I, no I wouldn't I'd think it's silly, told you once I saw at the I couldn't, this doesn't want to stay up this double sided tape. , you go . I comedy don't you? . I wonder if they've got, what was that one with Leslie Neilson, the good one, Naked Gun, that's funny,is that. Hello Emma, hello Jenny, you're up early this morning. Hi. What got you out of bed so early? What do you mean? It's a Sunday morning you didn't have to get up. I did, I opened up this morning. You had what? I opened up this morning, I was suppose to open up yesterday morning as well, but I over slept. I can't say I blame you. I can't believe they last night, not last night the night before, Friday night I went to bed early knowing I got to get up Saturday morning ,. Yes , usually the way. Sod's law in it? Yeah, absolutely . Late night I was in bed by twenty past ten, I was in bed and I say I must of been asleep by half past , Good girl , cos said to me are you going to sleep? I said yeah , and then I was a sleep you know. yeah. And this morning oh I didn't want to get out of bed, it was so warm, ooh, didn't want to get out at all. It's funny because Dinda does the same thing. Mm. Weekends she's bright and early, half past That's it , seven quarter to eight, the week days when she needs to get up at quarter to seven to work, that's it . she said I could of I'm , slept this morning. I'm generally ok during the week, thing is, I think it's probably the weather as much as anything, the days are dark isn't all , Yes , it was very dark all day yes , yesterday, and that makes you very tired, and it's very dark when you get up in the yeah . morning's now, there you go. It's not natural really is it? No, your body just doesn't want to And the animals don't want get up do they? No, that's it. Poor Jenny, and what time does Nina have to get up? Emma. Emma what time does Emma have to get up? This morning. Yeah. I got up about half past eight. Oh that's not too bad is it? No that's quite a nice time to get up. Yeah, that's when I'm trying to stay in bed but I can't, on a Sunday. That's like my mum, she can't . Ok . I can't , thank you love. housework. Yeah. Wakes up and got to hoover. Oh no I don't do that, I daren't it's week days and I usually want to go off back to sleep I'm ok during the week, I've got into a routine of getting up and going to and all the rest of it, but weekends I have every other weekend off, it's not quite a routine is it?, No , depends how possible it is. yeah. my lie in so much . , can't say I blame you. Bye, bye. Another dingy day today, oh, see you in the morning dear Yeah. Cheers. Yeah. Here's Alison there's a good boy, there's my good lad Who's coming?, who's coming?, who's coming Rocket? Hi. Hello Hello Henry, hello Lucy. . Hello love, your , I , you were quick. mouth full of toothpaste, what, toothpaste when you rang . That was quick. Well, I thought, come on a dog walk special. Well I phoned you twice before, and there's been no answer so I must , Ah, last weekend I was away , oh you did tell me, yeah, but the weekend before that I think I was late . and I decided I made it through erm , enough weekends, I really needed to go away and have a, get away from this part of the world . Yes. And er, it worked in consequences on which on the Monday morning I was back Yes. got up and went to work and had this bloody awful throat and I thought , Oh no , you know that awful viral thing that's going around and I meant to be pass the infectious now, or I wouldn't be here with you. Good boy Henry, and erm, I think it's one of those you can cope as long as you have too and as soon as you're relaxed, you're so run down, and tired something hits you , the first bug that comes along says right yep , I'll move in here, yep and erm, Come and get it sweety, give it to me then . I felt bloody awful this week , but erm at least I can run around a bit, come on Henry bally down, bally down, sit, good boy, go charging off up there and if you throw it, you won't see where it goes it's so dark . No, no, you have to wait . Henry come back here you rotten thing. Good boy, aunties got it. Look. He's so silly, he charges off with such Good girl Ludabelle. he charges off with such enthusiasm, usually in the wrong direction . Oh poor old Rocket, he, he runs after the ball, then runs past it and leaves it Oh no. he won't, won't really play. Well actually a girl friend of mine came round here yesterday, oh, lunch timeish was it, and erm, Henry forget his ball, he got so excited of the though of going out he put it down in the hall, came here and was thoroughly miserable all the way round, without his ball his lost, you know, a dog walk isn't a dog walk for Henry. A stick won't do? No, chases it twice and then Lucy takes on and eats it for him. Yes. So anyway, how's life been with you? Oh, not bad. Good. But tediously, but same as usual . Does your daughter live with you? Oh yeah or is, she does? Oh yes, oh yes, still . . Marvellous. One human being on your side, if . Yes . Couldn't be more right . yeah. Couldn't be more right, except that It's a funny thing though, because mother's and daughter's , and er, I love, when my mum comes up she's a dreadful sleeper and if you're having a bad time, you get up in the middle of the night to go and make a cup of tea, there's always a little voice says, yes, let's have a cup of tea dear. And you can sit and rabbit Yeah. to the point where my father-in-law woken up in his room with hilarious giggles which don't take long to ensue . and it's one of life's real treats. Yes. Real treats. Mm, oh yes, Dinda is er, she's inclined to be a little too Protective of you. yes and she cannot discriminate her feelings. Mm, mm. When she disapproves of something you've said or done. As it comes. Well she does, she doesn't say it, she , doesn't say all that much, she'll probably just get up and walk out of the room or, or heave a big sigh or something. yeah. Was a to have on your side around the place, it's probably without . You know I think I would. Yes, I'm sure you would. Oh mum rings up every now and again, father is driving me batty Yes. mother you do not have to stay there, why, I mean he's quite capable looking after himself for a weekend, you know my father had a series of stroke's when he was in his fifties Yes. mainly because of hard work, self induced, he was just a compulsive workaholic Yes. and, he loved what he did, he that nobody could have survive, and then my mother who's mentally unimpaired, but in sudden decay overnight and she has to look after him Yes. but having said that she's got a sort of ready meal, all you have to do is use one hand either pick your plate up, put it in the microwave and you've got a cooked meal Yes. and on his own, and said to mum, come up here and get away for the weekend, cos it's a hell of a burden to carry, with no release, I mean even going on holiday, she has to book it, organise his packing, wash it, you name it,. Isn't it? Erm you . more often than he was, but it didn't use to be like this. The first time we had a break together, Dinda said let's go out, I said well somewhere fairly close where we can take little Rocket Yes. so we took a cottage on Canvey Island Yes. I've always heard it was a bit of a sort of a Mm. Blackpool type thing, it was beautiful, lovely countryside , You had a wonderful time , absolutely gorgeous. mm. Would you believe that he said I've got to work on the aeroplane this week, I've got the week off, I've got to work on the aeroplane, I, you know, I shall be alright, down the airfield, er on the Wednesday he arrived to see how we were getting on, complaining like made because he hadn't been able to find where the cottage was, I said but I'd left you a detailed map , Oh god . I'd left you the full address, and the telephone number and a fully detailed map. Why is he so helpless?. I said, that, erm, begrudgingly I must admit, I said, you gonna stay overnight, no, no, I've come to take you both out to dinner. He is good, I've got to work, that's an excuse Oh I know does . but I've got to work on the plane tomorrow. You know when we came back the next Saturday as we've gone through the front door, he'd gone to the Little Chef for breakfast because there weren't any crocks left to u , to use Oh no. the kitchen was piled up, I, I, Dinda took my suitcase upstairs, I'd seen to the dog, he was very, very good in the car as you know er, I took my suitcase, I couldn't get through the bedroom door, the bed clothes on the floor where it's, where we've had a sudden hot spell, he hadn't folded them up Oh, thrown them off , and put them in the spare room thrown them off. just, just, left them lying on the floor. . It's for spite, I mean, he was, he was quite capable of doing the . Oh yeah absolutely, like my father Just . My father likes being waited on Oh yes. mum is there and is expected to do it, I mean mum is . Yes. It really annoys me, and every now and again I sit him down and say now look you, oh Henry, and he adores, the actual, personally my father adores my mother and the sun has always shone out, she's the only person in the world for him Yes. but, he will, I think, unwittingly use the . Was he the only son? He was the only child. Yes, yes. Absolute menace Yes. but then,married, married he was one of three boys, and his mother never worked, you know she would keep the house clean, as everything, they must have father about . I love Go on. I love wallowing in a hot bath. Erm came and shower occasionally and if you bath, I said to him, do your mother ever, to pick a, a damp towel up off the floor, but, did you have a bath, and all , Yes. why was it my job always to go in pick them up and . . I mean I use to do a full time job outside the home, then come back and do all the housework and the washing and the children . . This is what happen when . Let's have it then Henry, leave it. Go and find daddy. Hello. Throw my ball. . Come on down. Bally down Henry, come along, Henry, bally down, good boy, there, there, that good and soggy and she'll really enjoy that. Oh lovely. not throw it at the cyclist had I? Better not throw it, wait , if you do up in the air, he's only got two dimensional vision Henry, he never looks up at anything. You too. But, erm, I told you the story of our cleaning lady . No. Well, two or three years ago, I said to really mad, there's me working full time, him on shifts and me Monday to Friday, nine till five, come Friday night I start and I spend the entire weekend washing, ironing, cooking, and That's right. I was just in time for Sunday night,bath, hair wash and all the usual things Yes. In order to fit and to go back to work on Monday morning. That's right. And I said to him I've worked out that less in the mornings to have a firm come in, you know Molly maid, yep . to come in and blitz the place from top too bottom and if we just have them once a fortnight, the in between weekend I can whiz round, Yes. because he wouldn't of got that awful. Well, not with both of you out . , and they came for eighteen months, two years, at the end of which the quality of the work had deteriorated, price was rocketing up Yeah. and more seriously then, insisted on coming on a Wednesday lunch time. Now Wednesday I do all the intensive care men and Yeah it's not an easy option, you really need to come home lunchtime after all of them and Relax . peace and quite , not vacuum cleaner going round Mm, mm. so I kept saying to her please would you do another day I don't know I'm not use to going in the meadows. please would you, not, come on a Wednesday by all means Lucy. but can you just avoid my lunch hour. Mm. What we gave you is the time they come and the next weekend they were back again, and I'd warned them several times and in the end I said look forget it, and I had it, you know, the works gone off, erm, and as far as I'm concerned it's Wednesday nights, I've really got to , and the price I started to pay, is no longer worth it to me. , Rocket.He's eating something little devil. Stop it, no. Come, come, come, come on. as your told. Erm, and I said to him you will help me won't you, you won't go back to me doing everything, oh lord he said, I'll, I'll do my share, so we went back to a routine, whereby I did, washing, ironing, cooking, cleaning, washing the car, mowing the lawn, doing the flower beds, and the doing the , he walked the dog. , oh typical . And I was never terrible short , sorry Henry didn't mean to tread on you. Never, take note, not down here it's full of leaves and you'll never find it again. I never saw that it was quite in balance, but you know you just, it's a case, if somebody else doesn't do something and you can't stand looking at it you will get on and do it, Yeah. which is something they get to rely on and I should keep thinking, that's a hell of a for them because he's never in all our married life washed a sock No. I mean, clean clothes just magically appeared and ironed, Mind you that . and at the moment he's living in a hostel where, I don't know too much about it, where you have clean sheets put on for them Oh, how nice. endless hot water, but I mean I . I can't remember, his life, he's trying to find what an iron looks like, he's never ironed a hanky in his life. My husband hasn't. Never, ever. I can't, I can't remember Pete ever changing sheets on the bed, ever. No, it doesn't cross their mind . Not even when I got a new baby was it. Did you ever, did he ever clean the loo's for you? No, oh no. Why was, that's what really used to get to me. I lead . Come back I, I , from work as a somebody and at home I was the loo cleaner. yes, I had exactly the same thing, being a top flight secretary at work Yes, come home and nothing but the lady with Yes , the Harpic, with her head down the loo. that's right, and not even, not even a word of appreciation for, a, a sale you've clinched or a good impression you've made on the end deal It's that, that is the ultimate thing, that is the ultimate thing , or something. no, it is all Which reflects on taken as red, with no credit given to you your boss of course. That's right. if on the other hand he has haven't done your chores,on a Sunday, er, how do you expect him to live in a place like this. Yes. Excuse me we both live here, we both work full time. Yes. And in fact he had more useful hours of daylight in the evening than I did . Well I use, I use to work longer hours. Yes. Than my husband did.. . Cos I was out with my first daughter at quarter to eight in the morning to catch the bus to take her to adopted aunty Mm. and he was still sort of erm, just . Jerking. Yes, exactly, and I'd be out in all weather's to catch the bus, yes. erm, and then get back and I, I was worked It was , eight thirty to five thirty and it's a long day and then you'd have to come back and your day's far from over. Oh too true. Then you and said right Yes . It's not just the cooking, I mean he can cook, but you need somebody else to say, what are we going to have and either go and buy it or this and that and They don't think about it . It's all that. What about the clearing up when they have, when they have cooked. Oh yes. The use three dishes and bowls for everyone Oh yeah , you've used. oh absolutely, absolutely . It's horrendous . Yes, they, it really is extraordinary. My son in law's, one of them is not too good Good morning . but at least he does decorate, good morning, he does decorating and things and he helps like that , Henry bally please . and he will do a bit of washing up, they don't want to use the washing up machine. Henry bally, come on bally down, come on Ginny . But my middle son in law is absolutely marvellous. He wants, he wants to . did he come out off?,. I don't know. Watch him Henry, watch him . His mother had two sons, and she said they're not going to be helpless, you've lost it stupid. . They both went into the Scout's and the Rangers and Edie made each of them do their own bed, do their bedrooms on Saturday's Oh. and now, I mean, Debbie, Debbie has well Debbie is And somebody somewhere is reaping the benefit of appreciate all Debbie's got this horrendous pregnancy having lost two baby's you see Yes. she's got this horrendous pregnancy . now, and Richard is working all day and because Debbie's been told she's got to have bed, bed rest Yeah. Erm, he'll come in in the evening he's done the shopping, he cleans the house, they live in a converted barn Mm. so you can imagine how big it is. don't. He vacuums, he cooks her a meal Oh god To try and tempt her appetite because she's throwing up Did you say she had two son's?, is the other one married?. Two sons , the other one's dead. Oh shame . Yep. That's my sort of chap. Yep. I'm afraid he er Yet there are some around . he was one of the sixties products who got onto all the drugs and things . Yep, and had a stroke, a brain haemorrhage . Oh lord . Mm. But you know honestly, the mother's like Ken, who do their children absolutely no, no, they're now the proud owner's of three sons all of them, well John's on his second marriage, Ken's on his second marriage and will be on his second marriage Yep. and quite honestly, I think they not only do they not bring them up to do, I mean useful like that, but I thought Ken's his family never showed any affection any warmth, any caring, any love, and I would do anything for anyone if they just say thank you, but with Ken My mother in law, was just, that, the other way round. She was drooling all over him Oh . in his fifties, it was my baby boy. Oh . It used to make you want to throw up sometimes. Believe . I couldn't believe it when I first, first year of marriage and when I got pregnant, er, we'd walk into her, well it's her daughter's erm sitting room, she'd struggle up out of an arm chair and I'd think oh gosh, I know she mustn't get up for me, got the tummy out here , Yes . and the baby have this chair, not her pregnant daughter in law, but her baby boy. Oh god. All six foot of him. Oh poor little soul. Oh Jesus how can you . No darling you mustn't do that, I'll shall, I'll shall take your cup out . Let her get on with it? Well I worked, he took me out Yeah, but, I had to take over, where she left off. I know, it is alarming isn't it? I, it took me a long time, time to realise that one can be for a mug. otherwise the place was a tip. Oh yes, I used to live, we used to live in a three bedroomed semi in before we moved to our present house, and one Christmas Ken said why don't all our family to us, which was his mother, his father, his elder brother, his wife, two little girls from them, Tony, Karen and their little one God. grandmother and I think there was an aunt, and I said Ken were living in a three bedroomed semi, oh they won't mind for Christmas. They won't mind. And they rang up, and they said were sending you a list of what we expect to be available in the way of food at Christmas because we always have the same thing. Yes. , and I ended up virtually people in a fish tank. Yeah. And they all said now look is there anything we can do and I said no, it's not, if you're coming to me as far as I'm concerned I will do it, you need anything and I will cope. not one of those females worked Oh no. they were all at home all day I was Oh no . the only one who worked full time, they came on Christmas Eve with reluctant, because I said look I'm sorry but I have to work Christmas Eve lunch time, and they said right we'll be there at five past one, and I finish at one, there were there at five past one, they finally left two days after Christmas because I said I'm sorry I have to go back to work today. Yes. Oh, oh, well we'd better go then, but we'll come back next year because that was good I said no I'm sorry you won't actually I'm going I've done my little bit for a while, no one else . my daughter's now . And I thought what a fool, none of them work No. and I spend the whole bloody lot slaving all Christmas You should have said so and so could you come and do so and so love, my daughter's now do Christmas for me Jesus . because one Christmas about four, . four years ago chain saw? I think so. Henry, Lucy Lucy, oh she's such a rat bag, hang on to go and get her over here. Come on, come on, it's a horrible noise isn't it? Oh yes, it's just under growth. You know we were saying about erm Foxes and rabbits Claire and Yeah, oh great. . Great. But I found that But erm , now, I mean my girls used to come to me with boy, boy friends as they grew up and then husbands, but they always help, they always yeah , helped with the bedrooms and things like that you see, now that's what I the family would do. the clearing up, they always gave a hand, but even so, they, they didn't realise that the three weeks before hand The sheer graft of trading round the shops, getting it all in , humping it all home, The lists, the planning, the food . packing it all away Yes , yes, and all the rest of it . and all the rest of it . Oh my god. My husband's eh, never bought the Christmas presents, he buys one and usually he'd only get that from one of the girls, what shall I get mum can you do . So he doesn't actually go out and do He doesn't have to do anything, but about four Christmas's ago I had the whole lot down, I had nine of us for the whole Christmas week, erm, Boxing Day I went in the kitchen, two of Diane's friends had arrived, who lived in London and I went in the kitchen, I'd had a bad dose of the flu virus that was Oh , going around and I'd worked right through it because of all the Christmas preparation we don't have another option do you? and I went into the kitchen and I fell down, first time in my life, I've never passed out, not That's right , even in pregnancies or anything mm. next thing I remember was being undressed and in bed with Debbie standing there with a boiled egg on a tray, saying mummy were so sorry you'll never do Christmas again, you've done it for us for forty years, we shall do it for you now. Oh, bless her cotton socks. And they have ever since. Oh bless them, and let them keep on doing it . But there again you see I go in the kitchen and say right, want to do spuds Here I am , shall I start on this, or do you want me to do that, I know Yeah , what would you like me to do? Yes. If, I say, if you want me out of the kitchen just say so, I don't want to be under your feet . But if absolutely you won't go quietly , but And they either say go and read the paper mum, I'll call you in half an hour. Yes, and then you'll feel you don't want to be , yes absolutely, I know. And we get on fine . It takes you a long while to realise what a twit you've been for so long. Yes. Oh bless their hearts, they'd always helped, but they hadn't realised I think . Yes but until you are the one who does it you have no comprehension of what is involved. Yes, yes, Diane was the first This year I have my mummy and my daddy coming up for a couple of days and that will be fine Yeah. I enjoy But I'm looking after them. forty now you see, so. Well I'm forty two. Yeah, well my eldest daughter's forty Is she? Yeah. Oh which is the one that is pregnant with the terrible time? That's Debbie, she's, she's, she'll be thirty this month Yes, it's a funny old thing, actually I must tell you I feel an awful lot better since I've passed my I suppose, last Friday I saw a Solicitor and the divorce is now actually sat up on it's merry way rejoicing, and I think you're much better off. for the first time since he went I envy you . I actually slept the entire night, because I thought goody, as soon as the divorce goes off, the sooner I'm on my way out of the ar oh Rocky , Rocky your head was in the way it was your own silly fault He's got nothing left , he's got nothing left.. , he's probably widdleing nothing, poor that wasn't worth sitting down for, no to think that once I've gone on, which I did on Friday, I'm now on my way out the other end . it's absolute bliss. . Yes, I think I do. Oh . I was talking to my girls honestly say, it never crosses my mind On my own with, with to think I wish he'd come back I get back to how life was cos I wouldn't touch it with a barge pole . . No, no . Absolutely not for anything. Oh life begins again and as I say I'm only forty two, it isn't that . Oh crikey no, you're just beginning love And erm, I'm sure after this . I'd, I'd I'd got a four year old toddler and a and a eighteen month old crawler when, when I was your age. Really? Yeah. Good lord. Yes, so life had started again for me . The bally down , bally down. Except, that, except that of course I was doing everything for everybody. Yes,. No, help with anything, that was after the emergen emergency Caesar and everything . Henry come back here . I'm, I think I had to do a days . , it's lovely. Don't throw it too far otherwise . The longer you throw, the more , good boy, it's so well hidden in the leaves, it's exactly the same colour that's the trouble this time of year, but no, life is a funny thing, and I find it personally very hard to believe that only two months ago, I mean what is it nine weeks ago, and I suddenly had an enormous view Yes, and yet here you are , It knocks you on your heels doesn't it?. absolutely . I can see it, it knocked you back on your heels . But you find that you can do things you've never dreamt of. Yes. You find out who your friends are. Yes. And erm, it's far from being the end of the world, and I think in a way Partly true, yes it is . he's given me a life line, so jolly well it happened and enjoy life. Well both my daughters are married to That's what I'm going to do , divorced men. yes, and I sometimes think that way I know with Ken's two brothers the way they behaved with wife number one and the way they are with wife number two is a different world. Hello love. How are you? Fine Are you and you? steam and strimmer? That's right, yeah. Isn't it noisy?. You've got a job here haven't you? Do you wear . Do you wear ear things? Oh yeah. Deaf pretty quickly. Oh excuse us . Yes you would , be careful he get's between your legs and goes . Want to sing with a high pitched voice, you'll never have a better chance. . They both do that, Lucy and Henry both do that, shove their heads Lucy , between your legs and go yes they're both totally shame less and their heads are like that, Lucy come and see say hello to . mother who was the one they inherited Oh they , it from, so do be warned. come away from the foxes please. Rocket. Come on away from the foxes, picks up any bits the foxes have left and then he get's an upset stomach and that's another thirty pounds at the vet. That much is it? Well, yes, once they have Oh it's horrendous isn't it?. an injection and been back for a check up, yes it's a good thirty pounds, you can't step in the door really without twenty five pounds. No, yes, I think it's . Even for their injections every year you know, and the, their worming twice a year. I can understand if they take time on a stray dog I often wondered if they realise He was , he was in the rescue. what they're walking into, Yeah. the pet rules, were saying whether it's a pedigree . Oh well I've it because I've had two pedigree's Hey, hey, hey, hey, don't be horrible , It's alright . don't be horrible. , right. I think they were only talking. Oh,oh thank you very much dog. , good think I'm in my dog walker's . And it was a white sweater, clean white sweater. , it's an oldy. I put on my old trouser's and welly boots this morning, it said it was going to be so messy . Well I thought of my wellies and I thought, I was just worried about falling of the pebbles, mind you,safe as these. I can only wear short ones otherwise they catch on the back of the driving seat and I don't like that. It's horrible. Anything that makes me,im impedes me, yes. normal progress. Yes, just happened at the wrong time. Well this week I have to fly up to Liverpool on the early morning shuttle Yes. on Thursday, we go on a book buying expedition, every year, June and me, we choose a lot of books of , but it's a lot more fun to go and actually pick the things off the shelve Oh lovely . and there's a library supplier, advertised to a box shop up in Lytham Saint Anne's So it's all paid for. oh yes,shuttle Ah? oh you'll love it, on the shuttle with the representative of Midlands, the firm get's us the other end and drives up to, we spend all day hacking around . on the shelves there . I didn't know they had a big library. Oh, yes, it's a three million books, it's called Help Jackson, it's one of the very, very old and that, I literally Oh so, the public is nothing . three million books on the shelve, and we don't have time going properly at the price so we go anything you want, bung it on the trolley and soon as the trolleys full it's taken away and another one given, and you poke around and then in the evening, you stay in a hotel overnight, and then the following morning, they get and you just sort of send up the money and they just shout up the money as we go, then,every time I get to a thousand they say one, two, and you say right, tell me when I get near three,and I've got this erm, I'm dreadful at maths, I failed maths O Level three times and I don't think about prices, I've never been more than fifteen pounds out . Carry a computer . I can't, you haven't got time. No. I've never been more than fifteen pounds out, at the end of the day which is unbelievable. Well, very good . It's just somewhere. This is what the Government pay for? This is all for provided for Broadmoor. For the, for the inmates of Broadmoor? Yeah oh yes. They have a, a life of Riley don't they? Well, the trouble is that they've got a closed Think about it . population, whereas in a public library there are people using the , some of for life so therefore you can't even send year in and year out they have to constantly changing Huh, you have more sympathy for them than I do. aha, ha. My first sympathy is with the people that they're in there because of, if you see what I mean? Hello love, I mean if they, if they were in cells without any books to read or televisions to watch I wouldn't have that much sympathy, my sympathy is with the little girls Yes. who've been left Oh yes, I can understand that, but it's in the same way as assaulted in bushes , you don't hate someone, because they have to oh no I don't hate them. you don't hate someone cos they have Leukaemia, you can't really hate someone Oh no , who has schizophrenia, they're, they're because they've no , done something, because of the illness . I feel sorry for them there, but for the grace of god, does anyone of us? If they're sick in their heads , if they're sick in their heads and they have to rape little girls. Mm. But my first thought is for the little girls Oh yes, I . and I would stick a needle in their bottom while they were fast asleep, so they didn't wake up any more, just like you would with an animal that does that. Mm, it's very easy to think that, until you know them as people, I must admit, there are , Yes, I can see your point , there is a hardcore, see, it's not necessarily what they've done, but when you meet them there's something instinctively repulsive about them yes. and not in, not necessarily the most seriousness, something the way they look at you Yeah. that to me is a hundred per cent unacceptable Yes. and you just think yuck and you have to try and cover over, you can't say, god you're vile aren't you?, but erm, Well I remember, so I used to talk to the nurses quite a lot when I walked Roxanna, my other German shepherd, in Wellington Yes. and quite a lot of the nurses used to walk their nurses, I mean they're er war trained and unarmed combat and they're wardens, let's face it, they're not nurses, and one of them was saying to me, oh we had a fellow in the other day, he'd, he'd a, fallen up the police stations steps I think erm, he said that he'd been to see the do gooders, he had this interview Mm. and he convinced them he didn't need an operation, he was, he was cured, he'd had his treatment,psy psychiatrist that seen him and he was all right thank you, he said, and they're so clever they can convince anybody on the outside Oh yes, yes . Yes we ask a psychopath now why Exactly, and as they took him back to his room, not his cell, but his room, he turned to my, my mate who was with me and said er, I don't want an operation I like having sex with little girls, he said now I've got two little girls and I had to turn and walk away mm. I said I can understand, he said I had to turn and walk away because my fingers were itching Yes, I find it a lot easier actually not to know what they've done, when you start work there you tend to come over these cases, which to do Yeah. as much as anything, but it's only cos you're writing a letter, and you say oh hello you writing a letter to mum, he says no I killed her to come here, you don't put your foot in it a big way, but after a while because you know nobody there is nice it really makes a lot of difference people . you don't think oh here comes a rapist, here's a sex offender, he's a whatever, just to take them as they come as people, because you've got to treat them all the same anyway Yes, but this fellow you see, I said to him erm, you had a lot to do with that fellow, he'd, he'd been down to collect him from someone on the South Coast as well with a police of course, and I said what happened to the little girl? he said oh she's been in psychiatric care, care for four years oh yeah. and there's no chance of her, and she was shattered, her, her life was ruined . Oh their life's can be totally wrecked, I don't doubt it for a moment. But I didn't have much sympathy for the man who was There, there are those who it gives a going out and Who's got a cigarette ration and his television , you think, oh my god, you know, I'll put loads of money on him,. yeah, do you remember the one, two or three years ago who talked to do gooders, that he was, he was fine and he was let out and first, within twenty four hours he'd gone down to the South Coast and killed his mother and his girl friend Yes, oh yes. just like that. Yes, there are those who . I mean I would, I would I'd stick a needle in their bottoms just like I would for a dog that had gone b , gone bad, I'd say poor creature can't help it There are some, but then you see Ginny there's a girl in there . I feel sorry for the victims There's a girl in there killed her daddy, but whey did she kill daddy, she killed daddy because Cos dad , he'd raped her and abused her from yes , the age of six and a half well she shouldn't be in there . Who's, who's the wrong one there?. She shouldn't be in there. She needs help. She shouldn't be in there. Exactly, but I mean I rest my case, there's, when you know their entire story, some of them, it makes you wonder who's more sinning against than sinning it's a strange affair. I think she had every right to . Yes, so do I,. Just to fight . But then future is hatred of men, she's likely to go out and kill every other Yes , man she comes across. yes. Your duties then is to protect the outside world and her from her health. Yeah. So I mean it, it's obviously a lot more sort of complicated as it seems on the outside . take everyone individual . Henry, come back you silly thing. . . Come here and sit. What a lot of walk for your fuel wasn't it? Can't you get your van down? It's a long walk. . You like suffering be honest, you like suffering. You drove past me the other day when I drov , was it you? When I I did drive the other day, yeah . When I whipped him , when I whipped him into the side just down there. Yeah. I heard this, this, a range rover coming ever so, ever so patiently behind me at walking pace, I suddenly realised there was something behind me. Was that a Sunday morning walk Ginny?. a bit busier on the Sunday . I think so, yes, yes. Walked all around yesterday lunch time, didn't see a soul in the pla , I saw one, was it you, on the back meadow? I wasn't there yesterday . There was one chap in the green thingy, yeah. Oh you're so butch and Henry, bye, bye Don't work too hard. I'll see you, phone you one day in the week, I saw the post lady coming up the drive and I said to Henry who's that, he threw himself against the top window so there was indeed someone coming up the drive, tore into the dinning room, picked up his tennis ball, raced back to the window and wow, wow, wow , with his ball in his mouth, and I said Henry you're really going to frightened off intruders with a ball in your mouth, I said . Oh no , honestly he would, if there was strangers. Yes, oh I'm sure he would, but I mean,. Wow, wow, wow is enough , yes, he goes mad at the post, he drags it all across, all across the hall, all through the lounge. . Oh yes, I would too if they had one . , ring up the and say sorry my dog ate it. Yes. . Yes, oh Rocket, for the first few months I had him, after he was rescued, and he was so protective of me, because I'd given him a good home and never, never hit him in the face . It's so , take sides No he goes up, he puts his , Is he yours?. no put's his paws on Keith and wags his tail and says, hit me. I'll take it. I'll take, that's what he was got used to you see Really . Can't bear angry voices, first he used to go underneath the rocking chair And hide. and hide, now, even if Keith's arguing with the television, which he would, Politician, he'll still go up and put his paws up on his knee, wag his tail, and bury his head and say, hit me instead , Here I am , oh I'm, I'm the punch bag Oh painful. and I'd call him Oh , and then give him a game and take his mind off it, and take him in the kitchen give him oh poor Rocket , a, give him a chew or a treat or something you know. poor Rocket, god how awful. Roxanna if ever, er god forbid, if ever he's raised his hand, Roxanna would have had him I think Though she never did with you really because that, I Threatened her once or twice . out the door like that I'd put them out the door just like that . yes. You've got to . Oh yes, oh yes, now he knows better. Good. Dinda's er trained him along,, well, a very good self defence. Mm. And she's had no hesitation, she'll . Mm. Absolutely. Unbelievable. She would knife him if she had too, and then of course she'd end up in Broadmoor,. We'd love to look after her you see. Yeah. I use the word love very, very loosely, like be honest I don't think I love, you can feel the that love Yeah , is not one of the emotions. I think there is sympathy erm for the people who are sick of course I can . I think some, some of the illness are so devastatingly terrified, that you can only think thank god, not to have that, because it must be so frightening, unlike some of these schizophrenia are hair raising Yes, but there are undoubtedly Yes, is the good, bad and the ugly in there Yes, and there are some who are on a very trip from here to jail Yes. because if some of ours were in jail, they'd be killed. Of course. Sex offenders, and rape little girls, hurt policeman, they're not liked . They always get beaten up . They would never survive Yeah, especially when it's their own little girl never survive, their own little children. but some of them are repulsive Yeah I won't kid you, and it's very hard to say good morning John how are you, when you're thinking , and you're thinking you stay your side of . hand full always from the back of your , back of your necks going. in the you think please god don't let Joe Bloggs come out this morning, good morning Joe,first one out . Yeah, yes. Ball done then, ball done, ball done, that's have the last one, thank you . Bally down, last time, throw the bally , last one. Thank you. Henry you're going the wrong way, as usual. This way, it's more easier to see, not quite so many leaves. Good boy. Can't play cricket with a jacket on can you? , good ball, you find it, where's Lulabelle gone? Lucy! Rocket! Oh no . They've taken each other for a walk, I think they, I think they're having a little flirtation, I think they're over there, Lucy, I think I hear . Rocket come, Lucy. Come. Come here darling. Come, come Henry and Lucy Lu. I'm glad to see you so happy and bright. Oh I am, I'm , Enjoying your job , I'm not letting the bugger get me down that's for sure. and, and if ever you think of it, just think Ginny would give her back, back teeth . Do you know, it's a most peculiar thing, a number of people who said, erm, one of our really made me laugh, a couple of Friday's ago, came and said to me, typical , Christ, he's done you a big favour hasn't he? What you mean? He said, it's bloody wonderful you said, it's taken years off you and I said thank you . It has, it has , it has. It's not all bad Ginny, it really isn't, and a number of women who think, Christ is alarming,you know. Yes, yeah. But now . Well to be quite , to be quite honestly sweety, I mean, I look at him and I think I'm not unfond of him Mm. He's the father of my three girls Mm. who's in my life, Oh yes, yeah. and if it hadn't been for him I wouldn't have them, Yes. mind you, I'd have somebody else's. your girls are your daughters Yes, but you know for years, when they were growing up in their teens, I was the the tennis net between him and his daughters, where's she going, who's she going with, who's bringing her home, is she wearing eye make up, why's she wearing nylons and not ankle socks , Oh no , I was always the buffer between the two, I used to say I agree with you dear, I don't want her to wear nylons, that's not the point, all her friends are wearing nylons and she's not going to be the that's right, do you want odd one out. up on her own? She's not going to feel the odd one out. Mm. It doesn't make much difference to us, we're not that hard up, that we can't afford So you're really getting it all along the line aren't you? until they left home, first of all it was I break his bloody neck taking advantage of my daughter, cos they each lived with their Oh yeah. boy, boy friends before, they married them, they weren't sleep, if they'd been sleeping around then I would of said something, then I would of said something to them , Something else, oh yes, yes . but it was one man and they stuck to him, and they, they lived with them first and then they married. Do you, honestly in this day and age I don't think that's a really bad thing, because until you're with someone all the time, who knows what, you'd never have got in, you'd never have gone in would you?. Only too, god if I lived with him first, I would never of married him, no, no, no way No. No way, if I'd known him. . The whole courtship was a tissue of lies, you know. Mm. Where he lived, where, when he was born, where he was born, what his parents did Really? Everything was lies. Can't believe him I really don't . Complete lies , yeah. . Any way we'll continue this merry saga and put Yes . the world's to right weekend. And now I had a lovely fellow I'd grown up with in the same village, the same sort of background, we'd known each other since we were eleven, twelve , Oh dear, where's he now? he's still in love with me he says, in eh, working in Birmingham, living in Bristol. . Phones me up now and again, oh yeah, I'll have you. Still dreams about me Well you never, ever know Ginny . one day I'll tell you a story. Met him in Stratford last summer when Dinda and I had a cottage , tell you a story , Dinda and I had a cottage in Stratford last, we made sure that father was going to Plymouth to Debbie's for the week, he said he adores it down there yeah. he didn't really like it, but he had a lovely week, but at least we didn't come back to a house that's full of Oh absolutely. full bedclothes and dirty crock. Hello, hello, hello,. . She had, she had so many warnings And I thought oh god But he looks bright. He went yesterday, I was gonna come up this afternoon and tell you when Peter came home, can't leave him, he was so naughty yesterday, he licked , Atten , he licked that, although yeah , she said he mustn't lick it. yes he'll have to have a collar on . I only went upstairs to get sort of washed and dressed, after the weekend, you have nobody around and er, oh eh, it started bleeding. But it's natural for them to lick a wound. It is, but it opens it up Yes. You see as it's quite nasty. Cos normally they aren't stitched, they have to heal by nature Yeah. I suppose. He erm What a good boy aren't you? and I thought oh what she gonna say, because he went yesterday afternoon Yes. and she said, I told you he had been licking, she said oh, even with the licking, that's excellent I'm very pleased. Oh really has healed nice . And she said he's not out of the woods yet, but, I'll give you a collar, if he's naughty, very crafty,and then I looked through the crack in the door and his looking . But how can he reach it with the collar on? Well I You've got the collar on back to front. I know, because he can still reach it the other way round. Oh, it should be . Yes, I did, I put it on that way And he could reach?. And he could, see he's got a little . It's so long isn't it?. Yes, this is it, you see, I don't think she thought of Cos it's a . Yeah, and even if, even Got long under carriage, haven't you darling. mummy he's still licking,I thought what am I gonna do? So, I put it on the other way round this morning and he hates it, I've only just done it Oh they do hate it. and he, he can't get round there . At least he can see , I mean Roxanna Yeah , had to have one for a short while, she was quite young and I, we'd only just moved here and I took her to the vet the used to be in Sandhurst, they said it was a bee sting, they put purple stuff on it oh. It didn't get any better and somebody told me about and I took her down there, oh Mrs she's picked up mange, I said mange, I know she said you feel just like when your child's got nits in their hair Yeah don't worry, it's, it's in the grass and she's just picked it up in the heat wave. So to stop it cos she always used to clear the foxes from the top garden, but er, because she worried it, it was about there on her patch Oh yes, a niggle . a bald patch , yes, so she had wear, actually we had to cut down a plastic bucket cos she was a big dog Oh yeah. cut down a plastic bucket and fixed that, it was great she had a bucket round her, round her Oh she'd only do that when thing . I sort of popping upstairs, when I'm here, I'll take it off him, but just now he, he was walking along like Let him get used to it. as though he could walk, but when you came to the door, here . Yeah, yeah, he'd forgot all about it, didn't he, he was putting it on you see. , yeah, yeah, this is it. They don't half get you at it, don't they? They do, they, they could wear you out. But he's eating well going to the loo alright. Good, I, I thought of you following him around watching what he was going to do. Oh my dear I was, it, you sort of feel exhausted with the worry of it don't you? Yes and the And the strain. Of course you must of emptied his lower bowel, when she did the operation Yes. so there would of been nothing there for him to go for, you must of been ever so worried following him around watching him . I was , because I, I felt oh, if it all comes to pieces it's all gonna bleed Yes. but he was alright and he didn't strain cos he couldn't go Mm. . Was there any way he And he's eating it alright. Oh good. I, I just put it on his dinner, cos there's no way that I squirt it in his mouth, I'd probably choke him. Yeah, yeah. I just put it on his dinner and he, he's licking all his bowls clean Oh good. so, that it's working. So he's not off his food, that's a good sign. No. He's certainly alert, that's why I didn't want to ring the bell , Yeah , so that he wouldn't upset himself by barking, that's why I tapped on the window when I saw you. . There Herbie. What a good boy. Yeah, you're still not having he says , What a good boy , but he's quite bright eyed . he's aged , he's aged round he's eyes. Yeah, ten and a half years old. Your . It doesn't seem that long since you had him as a puppy I know . use to keep This is the thing. keep Lancer company. Yeah, you did you perked Lancer up a treat didn't you? Is there any way she can tell what's going on inside, where she did all the reconstruction. I suppose is the only way if, if he started bleeding or if he felt loose, cos she said he's still swollen from the operation Yes. obviously, but he's, he's gone down, I, I can see he's gone down a little bit Yes. I mean before he was all loose and baggy That's right, he was. Were erm, where he had . And then of course he hasn't, he hasn't got testicles any more. No. But she's, so it's difficult to judge isn't it? Yes, yes. Cos you don't know how much she took away when she took the testicles out. No, he I mean he, he still got the little They're partly inside, they're partly outside a little bag, but there's nothing in them . Yes, yes. . She did a marvellous job. Yes, a nurse came round and she said hello Herby, she said oh you look quite bright, and I said did he play you up she said well he was very torn and I thought yeah I'm sure he was . Oh poor little soul , of course he was. in all night. Is he getting treats, is that why's he's looking No, I, I only give him his food . So that he get's a treat . Are you not getting any treats? And he's bowl of water. I nearly brought you down and treat, and I thought I'd better not until I've asked your mum. Yeah, he has had a bonio, he likes a bonio, he did eat one last night, Well that's only he usually has a bonio after he's dinner a food supplement isn't it?. this is it, but that's his sort of Rocket has a chew usually . Oh yeah, got those. You know one of those hoof and horn chews Yeah. Which there's nothing in them, there's noth , not fattening or anything. That's right. I mean I never have given my dogs chocolates or anything like that, a lot of people do . You now, he, he's had , I'm just keeping him on the straight and narrow while he's on remission . Yes, oh yes . . Yes, got to keep your insides in motion we have darling. , she said he must not strain, and I've been petrified I remember she was, she was ever so adamant about that. she said straining is going to push the stitches Yes Yes. but as soon as he start, get ready, go, and I go up to Lisa's and . And he tells you when he wants to go, or is it regular times of the day?. Well he looks all peculiar . Yeah. , I suppose like this morning after his breakfast, and he went and he, he, it was quite big Good. So erm, I was pleased. Good, so it's forming into a proper form. Yeah. Proper shape. Oh yes. But it's sliding with the, the liquid paraffin. It comes out quite good. Good, good, if it's forming properly that's a good sign isn't it of health, always. Yeah, cos, when he had he's hernia he, he's it used to come out flat. Yes. There's nothing there , Depressed , you see, it's gone like that. yes. So erm,round his bottom and it's all round know, and I keep looking for signs of bleeding and all this . Oh that's good, that means , that means their anal passage and his rectum were in the right shape again. That's right. Oh I'm so glad. Oh I hope so, but still not out of the woods yet Erm, well no I suppose he won't be until he's erm, had stitches out, she said it would be two weeks Mm. before we, you know, could really stop worrying. Mm, mm. But, she said I'm pleased with him so far, but we still got to be careful that's why she made him have this collar. Well remember I'm usually around, if I'm not there Thank you Ginny , the first time you ring, I'm usually only out long enough to walk the dog and do some shopping right. so don't hesitate to call if you get worried about him or Alright, yeah, thanks very much. You know if he starts throwing up or well you, you think he seems he looks as if he's in pain or something. Yeah, but she said he's alright and erm I said he's he was jumping on the chair, should he ought to? . He's, he's, he's jump, he, he, he goes up like a jump jet he goes Yeah. like that, and she said oh, she said well I'm rather pleased to think that he feels likes doing it. Of course. . well that's the only way he can see out the window Yeah. he likes to watch doesn't he? Yeah. I often see him watching as I go by. That's right, he usually sits up there, and I'm, not going to leave him on his own till I know he's alright. But erm, she said don't worry too much about jumping, she said I'm quite pleased you know he can do that Yeah. she said it's just straight . So she gave him more liquid paraffin did she? No I've still got the bottle Yes, it's easy enough to get it get the empty bottle and Yeah, I've got some up there any way, I'm sure that 'll be alright to use. I suppose So I suppose it's the same strength where ever you buy it. Well I can check on the bottle. Yeah. . Any way I'm going Thursday, if I need any more she'll give me some then. You've got someone to take you Thursday? Yes, cos I couldn't get there till five o'clock . I'll take it off when I come down stairs and you can go to sleep. Yes I couldn't get an appointment until just gone five, so Pete will be, thanks Ginny. But erm, it's really, not only, when you look at it, it makes me cringe, I think ooh, he licked it yesterday and it was all bleeding, and it, you know, Well the stitches are pulling where they're, where they're trying to heal of course, they're pulling. Yeah, and with he's licking he's make it all soft and That's why he's licking cos it must itch like made. . . . What a good boy, I would of thought she'd have put something on it, put some ointment on to stop it itching . And the other side is quite dry , yeah, that is the side he keeps on but that's quite erm dry. I use Savlon ointment on any, any of mine. Oh I do. Savlon . . anything, yes. That's what I used on Rocket's tummy, when he done, got that had a G two cortezone bathed him with Savlon Oh yes. warm water, and then put Savlon cream on it, vet said you couldn't have done any better, cos he gave him an antidote, before I new what it was I would have given him funny itching rash that was making the poor soul Yeah itch and that drives you made, if you've got an itch yourself Oh yes , it's ooh. oh yes, yes. Well I shall leave you to get on with it, go and put my washing out and go and unload my shopping. Yeah, thank you ever so much Ginny . More Christmas shopping Yeah. yesterday, Dinda saved some of her holiday Oh yes. so she had Friday and Monday off, of course I had Keith at home on Friday with his poor back. Yeah, is he better? Erm, well it's still there a bit, but it's not, it's not too bad, he's moving around more easily now. Yeah. But after all I mean, he's put in new plumbing, he's put in a new boiler, all the plumbing, he didn't pull his muscles at all, he went to pick a light carton out of the back of a car, twisted his twisted. yeah, bottom of his spine. Painful. Mm, you can do it so, the worst one I ever did was just filling a kettle of water and turning round to put it on the, on the cooker . Oh yeah, it's . Yeah, and I came, for three weeks I was coming down stairs on my bottom like a toddler, I couldn't go from Where you, yeah . one step to another and the hospital, the hospital and I went up to Maidenhead hospital and they said don't stretch, don't bend, don't lift, don't carry and I said thank you I've got a school girl, a toddler and a new baby, and I didn't bother to go back any more Oh . . ,, yes, quite, another with . Yes,. Oh I hadn't got much, I mean if you go privately . . She's the physiotherapist. Oh the physio She's do it, just planned the corner, in the new houses on, erm, oh what's the name of it? Where up the hill. No the other, where the donkey's used to be in the fields, you know, all those churched like houses Oh up the top there,Temp oh Temp Templux Close , Oh, yes, she used to be in their Templux. Oh, oh. She's marvellous, and Debbie put her back out once, I phoned her and she was here in about three minutes Really. six discs, click, click, click, click, click. Oh. Debbie had called at the doctor on her the way back and the doctor had said I can't see anything wrong with your spine You need somebody like that when she came in absolutely like this, I thought , I'll leave you while you answer the phone. It's probably Aida or . No, no, no, no, no Thank's Ginny any way Well if you need any thing Thanks a lot then. give me a bell I'll shan't, I'll shan't be out for long Will do . Thank you. No leave her. She may not want you. She may not want you Rocket. Come on. Come on . She's lovely isn't she? Come on Domino. You have to watch him he's going deaf Ah! and blind. And he wanders off Oh yes you in the completely wrong direction if I'm not careful. Yeah you told me he was having a bit of trouble. Course they see with their noses a lot don't they? Yeah. Come on! He's a beautiful beautiful feathering. He's due for a trim but it's a bit cold really. I must erm oh yes. I think it's, I'll leave it a little while or else he's be Well he looks so elegant. freezing. As long as you can cope with the brushing and combing. Yeah. I mean he looks elegant doesn't he? He's got er he's got nice spots on his back. Two big black spots. He's a blue roan isn't he? Yeah. But when er Beautiful. the black grows quicker, longer than the white and it covers them up. I think he's gorgeous with that little fringe along his side. I love it. Yes she she leaves his er his feathers on. Yes, yes. I love it. Mm he's a lovely dog. And his britches too. I've never seen one quite so rich. As that. Come on puppy. We'll be late for school if we're not careful. Oh yes. Yes. I usually come around this time. Mm. There's usually some, some mums who are meeting the school and and walking dogs at the same time. Yeah. It's better really in the in the summer when you can come after school Oh yes. and . It's getting dark early now isn't it? That's it. It's dark around four o'clock. Yes. And very chill. Bit raw today isn't it? It is. It's gone very cold. It's colder than it was this morning I think. Mm it is because I, I just put er a dress on this morning. I wish I'd put a jumper on Yes. in the end. Well I didn't have the heating on after it had gone off at nine o'clock you know. But er before I came out I switched it on cos I'm not coming back to a cold house. Mm. No. I'm going round this way. You go through the meadow. Yes. Goodbye. Bye bye. We've done the meadow. Come on Rocket. Come on, you've done the meadow. Rock! Who's that? John, John ? Yeah. Can you ring him some time after eight or between eight thirty and nine cos he's gonna be so we He can't because one of his favourite programmes is on. Well make it after nine o'clock then. It's going up. It could be eleven o'clock . You feel it was worth the effort going do you Dinda? Mm. You feel more relaxed in your mind now? Well not that. It's just that you know it might do some good. Well you feel more confident with the Cos you, you have improved your posture. Well it must have been hurting you to make you do that. I'm just trying to improve my posture. I know my posture's . You weren't huddling because of the trying to ease the pain a bit? No I was huddling because I'm lazy. Oh. Mm mm mm What's that I don't know. Was it nice? No, it wasn't spicy it was just so tasty almonds. There's everything in this pie, there's almonds You could put you could put courgettes in. I love courgette. Yeah? Well I had to have something to perk it up and vegetables are getting a bit iffy at this time of year. I think courgettes are wonderful. I could have courgette and and aubergine. Mm. There's celery and onion and leek. And nuts. There's more out there in the kitchen. Mm. Go and get half of it. I like it better with not so much ginger I think. Yeah. You what? I like it better with not quite so much ginger as last week. Cos I remembered the I asked her to slack off on the ginger a bit the garlic. the number of people that are trying to get towards this sort of diet that I'm on. Really? Well, national thing last night. Yes yes. It's a good thing. Perhaps the shops'll make it easier for us now. More stuff available. You've got Solihull in Surrey. . I'm not from Surrey. I was born and bred in Berkshire. That's right Wasn't I? I was born in Berkshire. Yes. and bred in Berkshire. in Berkshire. Your is in Berkshire. So I think I'll route for Solihull. Your is in Berkshire. You were born in Berkshire. Buckinghamshire. Berkshire. It was Berkshire then. You were born in Taplow. You're quite right. I beg your pardon. Taplow, Bucks. Yes. It was it was Berkshire. No it wasn't. It never was Berkshire. Wonder what it says on my birth certificate. I'll have to go and have a look at it. I've got my birth certificate with me. Taplow, Bucks. Mm. That's right. We were in just over the border. But postal wise we were in Maidenhead Berkshire. But for the rates and the schools we were Buckinghamshire. saying that we are in Surrey now. We're not in Surrey. We're in Berkshire. But we're not in Surrey, are we? No we're in Berkshire. Saying we were in Berkshire is like saying we're in Surrey now. Same old thing. This is not true. We are in the postal in Surrey. The analogy's the same. Quite right. Big words coming out now. It's not We've got that up there and it tells you cos he's in trouble. Oh there's a bit left. Do you want it? No thank you dear. Do you want any more Dind? No thanks. That was jolly nice. I had a light lunch. Yes. You haven't had much filling stuff have you? I didn't have any any any almonds for my lunch . Well will you have a slice of low fat cheese? Slimmers cheese. and you haven't eaten that much and a vegetarian pie isn't Yes it is. potatoes. Well I know it's got potatoes but it's not that filling. And there's only fruit you see for afters. That's alright. Well it soon went, that lot. Didn't it? Mhm. About two hours preparation for about ten minutes eating. . What did you say? Well you can't say enjoyment. About two hours preparation for ten minutes eating. I thought all cooking was like that. Which was I That's true. Very true. You don't ever keep the pineapple juice? Only orange. Not much call for it. No. No. We've never had we've never had pineapple juice. Robert won't sort of get it in he said because it's so slow going. Yes. We've got one white or one brown. One white. Seventy seven pence then. Oh. You don't need two I suppose? No. Thank you very much. No. There's not a lot of . Not as cold not as cold yet as I thought it was going to be. No? Other people have been saying it's colder, colder than they thought. Well yesterday I thought it was. Yes. . Get them Rock. Rocket. Rock. Rocket. Hello baby. Hello. Hello. very lucky if she'll give it to you. . I haven't trained her yet. Hello darling. Come and say hello. There's a love. Can't be left out can she? And bouncy there gets all the fuss doesn't she because she's so she's so full of life. But your an old love. Look at her . Yeah. You're always dopey aren't you? Eh? Oh she Suppose she's nice cos she's handier, don't have to bend down, That's right. Yes. Sally! Now stop it. Gosh end of the walk. You should be tired. Ah. Well I'll have to have it if I want to throw it. No she this is what she does. She wants you to chase her. I can't chase you I'm far too old. Ha got it. about three sticks on the way round so when we get here I've got one to throw. As she brings up one I've got another one to throw and she drops what she's got. And this is how we're going . She's been playing with the . I thought well that's good Yes. she doesn't need the extra belting around. Are you limping? Erm my arthritis is playing me up this week. Ooh. Don't know why. Whether what's caused it. Cold? A chill? My other knee got bad all of a sudden. I mean I only had one bad knee but then this time I got two. Oh that's rough. It is . Sal! Sally . You do not I'll squeeze your paws. I will. I'll squeeze your paws. Now I keep trying that with you. oops Might be the weather. I don't know. Have you strained? I did gardening. Oh. Digging. Could have been that. Yes. Finds your weakest spots doesn't it? It sure does. I'm not supposed to dig. Aren't you? Not really no. Cos it aggravates the hip. Yes. what annoys me cos I love gardening. I used to do, well I, I still do all, all the gardening that gets done. I used to spend hours gardening. That's what I like. You go out there and you don't realize how long you've been out there. No. No you don't. I don't do so much now. I'm more a fair weather gardener. Well I keep going out there trying to keep the leaves down. That's impossible round here. Well we've got an oak out the front and I've swept, I've got two bags . Oh I can imagine. The rest I've put in the gutter off the path and of course the wind's blown them all back off again. Yes. Yes. It's funny whichever way the wind blows my back door and my front door both get covered with leaves. Yeah. I want It's magic. really a continuous, strongish wind to blow in one direction for quite a few hours. It may blow them all into one spot. Yes. Never happens like that though does it? We've got one corner of the garden out the front and if the wind's in the right direction it neatly puts them all together. Oh that's Cos the wall stops them. And they're much easier to pick up that way. That's right. . But she's still got a load of leaves on her, the old oak. There's still a lot more to come. Yes. Oh yes there are. I saw a gadget the other day in a magazine. It was just like two dustbin lids. Pick up a heap of leaves at one point. Oh yeah. I thought well you could use dustbin lids instead of sending of ten pounds to get two of their pieces of I use my dust pan. Yes. Yes. I do. Because that's smashing for just scooping up. Yes. And you can hold them with a with a brush or the broom. Well I scooped it up and I got there. You can always Yeah. always wear rubber gloves anyway. So often I just scoop a to put in. And I even use it when I wanna shift snow. I just, if it's a light snow Yes. That's a good idea. I just scoop it up with that. I found it a lot easier . I mean I bought a lovely wide broom. I thought oh that'll be smashing for the snow just sweep It's hard work. And of course you do about a yard and then you're stuck. You can't move. No I find the best thing for snow cos we've got an eight car driveway so you can imagine how much Yeah. That's like we have to. snow I have to shift. I get a thin, long board and use that. It's definitely easiest. As long as the board itself isn't too heavy. Well this is it. I have to, cos with the with the pan although I'm bending, it's, it's not too bad because it's not too heavy for me. Yes. Well I get a board about here and just walk and push. Oh right. It's alright, somebody had their windsc erm window smashed yesterday. I know. A gentleman stopped me as I was coming back and he said do you own a white Austin Metro. And it's funny because the last car that I saw the fellow's from I saw the fellow's who did it. Oh you did? And got their car number. Yes. Oh you have? And the police came and interviewed me about it. That was a white Austin Metro. Don't think it's the same young woman. He said oh the car's been broken into No because it was funny cos we were talking to the lady. She's got a red setter. And she'd just arrived. And she apparently . She said, do you know she said we'd gone off to the woods and I suddenly remembered I'd left my purse in the car. Oh no. She said so I went back and got my purse. She said now apparently they've got a horse somewhere round here and she said when she came back there was this car about half hour later after they'd left here a car been broken into. She said er it makes me wonder if I'd left my purse in the car if it had of been our car that might have been dumped. Yeah. Well they'd gone off and before Anthea had gone and I was still fiddling about getting the windows clean. This car drew in there and a chap got out and I thought, what dog's he got? You know That's what I always think. I look for the dog or the jogging suit and if they haven't got a dog or a jogging suit I think what are they up to? Well see he, he was quite tall and when he got out he was a bit scruffy looking, and his shirt was hanging out below his jacket. Yes. And he got out I can't see any dog . But he walked very purposefully erm straight up there and then I noticed he'd got a hook Yes? instead of a right hand. That's useful for breaking into things isn't it? And I, and I thought to myself oh no perhaps he's legitimate. He's just going for a walk . No it's odd. But it's a maroony dirty maroony and black I think it was car. And it was a W M X, the letters were. Didn't you tell the police? You should give them a ring and tell them if you saw a strange man. Well yeah I did I mean he disappeared from sight whereas the others Well he would if you were waiting around here. Of course you look as though Ah I dunno. One morning when I came here there was a car arrived here and it was a a dirty yellow one and thr two women and a bloke got out all dressed in black jeans and black jumpers. Yes. So I thought now that's odd. They didn't look the sort to go for a ramble perhaps. And they come out and they sort of were looking around and there was a load of cars here. And I thought I don't like the look of that. Mm. So I was standing there and I thought to myself pretend I'm looking at my watch and I'm waiting for someone. Yes. And they hung about and hung about and then they came across here, looked at the board and they kept turning round and looking where I was. And I was still hanging there. Then they walked down there, but not out of sight of the cars. Then they came back, read the notice board again. I must have been there about five or ten minutes? neat haircuts? They looked quite quite presentable. One woman was very fat. And I still stood there so I got in the car and wrote the number down. Good for you. Cos I thought I'm never gonna remember it. And eventually they got in and went off. But they were, they kept on looking at me to see if I was gonna move and I thought I'm not gonna move till you move. Mm. Cos the fact that they only went down there, came back and were milling around waiting I wouldn't have been a bit surprised cos the car was a filthy old car. You should have told you should have told the police. Any car number you can They hadn't done anything. No. But any car number you can get if they're acting suspiciously please tell them. That's what they keep telling me. Oh I see. Cos they had er Because they came and interviewed me. If you see anything suspicious. The last time I phoned up I said the bicycle that was hidden in the bushes. Obviously been stolen. Down there that erm Davey and I found together. His dog erm found it, you know Sam? Erm next day it was still there although he'd phoned the police. So I phoned them up in the afternoon and I said the bicycle that my friend Mr reported yesterday afternoon is still in the bushes. I said and I have a feeling that there was somebody there watching me I could feel it. I said and as I came back up what I call the straight path parallel with the road there were two men loitering in the bushes against the car park. Oi! Both very well dressed. Jeans, but clean and spruce and I said I have a feeling they could have been police. And he burst out laughing and said you're quite right madam, they were police. No these didn't give me the feeling of being police. No. But there's one I thought how stupid. It's alright to park erm a non police car but there was a policeman actually sitting in the car while two of them loitered in there. They were obviously staking out the place. But while there's a man sitting respectably in a car no-one's gonna break into the other cars. I know. Not if they're witnessed, are they? No I mean because I mean erm So the other police should have gone into the other should have gone away somewhere. I didn't I didn't cotton on to these two er these three. And yet you feel uneasy? Erm it was the way they sort of checked all the way round the car park as if they were looking to see which would be the best. And I mean they did get out and have a little mooch around the car park. Yes. And I thought to myself no I'm not gonna go out, I did start to go out the park and I thought no. Yeah. I'm like you. Because what if they do break in. Perhaps I'm, I'm misjudging but perhaps what if they did, how would I feel? Yes. So I thought no I'll wait and see. Oh you should give the police that number. Just to be on the safe side. I've lost it now cos I've chucked the matchbox out. Oh what a shame. But it was a yellow car and it had like soft toys and that in the back. Yes. On the back window ledge. Yes. Cos I thought to myself well I'll never remember the make of car. I mean I'm, I'm hopeless with cars. But I thought to myself oh you do you do look suspicious. And then I was talking to somebody about this and they and they burst out laughing and said well we've got a friend, a male friend a mate of mine he said and he loves walking. Yes. He said and what he often does is because he lives over this area. He'll often cut through this way to go over to Wellington into Crowthorne and walk all the way round. Yes. He said he often walks through the woods on his own. I had to laugh. He must forgive us ladies do a sidestep . He said he is legitimate. He just loves walking. Oh yes. But the police would much rather you told them when there's no Yes. nothing to be nothing wrong with it than that you didn't tell them and there might be something wrong with it. Oh I'll have to keep my eyes open. Cos I thought well the couple had only just walked up there and I thought to myself oh well he might meet up with them, you know. The young, the young officer who came to me he said of course we're so glad you got the number, you're quite right it's a car that's been doing the same thing in Wokingham. We only know that they live somewhere in the Wokingham area. It's lads who earn their living at this. Yeah, yeah. They go from car park to car park. He said er but of course the thing is they don't expect elderly ladies to notice their car numbers and remember them. Now I may not remember always the make first glance off unless I look at it. But this was an eastern European car so they didn't expect me to know the make. But I do remember numbers. Oh I've got a terrible memory. And I scratched it on there to make sure that I didn't forget it. Oh I see. And as soon as I got home I wrote it down. I put it on there with my key. # or whatever it was. It's probably still there now. It is it's still there. . It's still there. Oh this was this was er W M X. I remembered that because what did it remind me of? W M X. Like a B M X bike I expect. Yeah or a volk volkswagen or something. Mm. Something clicked as I looked at the number. Yes. It's like with a lot of number plates. Sometimes it oh that's so and so's. Yes. I mean a lot of mine I can't even remember me own number plate. But I . No I went back and got in the car and was fiddling about and I wrote it down on a matchbox you see. Yes good idea. But the funny thing is by the time I got home I still remembered it. Yes. Cos you'd written it down. If you hadn't written it down you wouldn't have. No. Er this is, I mean I've just got that way. I thought to myself well if I don't write it down now cos that's why I got back in my car. You should have told the police they'd have been interested. Oh well then, another time then I'll remember that. Cos you see I said why, why can't you trace the car? I mean the number's quite, I said you, you reaffirmed that the number was the same one that had been doing the same thing in, in Wokingham. He said the car belonged to an elderly lady in Wokingham. We've traced it that far. She had sold it and she hadn't told the erm Swansea people, you know? Yeah. The vehicle licensing people. It's so easy to just write the slip and say I've sold my car to mister so and so. I always do it. Erm and then that person she'd sold it to she knew their address. They went to him and he had sold it as well and they couldn't Yeah cos since they've done away with the log book. And it hadn't been registered. Where you used to have to send the Exactly. log book in and it would come back. It hadn't been registered so they'd got, the police have got no way of tracing it. No. Except keep driving round Wokingham looking for it. I mean they at least they could pick you up cos they'd had the log book. Yes. In the old days. Yeah. It was good wasn't it? Yeah. And each car they knew where they were didn't they? That's right. And the previous owner and the previous owner. That's it. Cos it was all written down. Yes. Oh all these barred stuff. They've got everything on computers now and it doesn't work half the time does it? Well it's only as good as the person putting it in. Yeah too true. That's what they used to say. Still human error. Yes. Oh yes. Until you get a computer for computing a computer. Yes. With a mind of it's own. An intelligence. That's what I mean. Then that's frightening. Yes. It is isn't it? Oh I couldn't take that. Well. I love your accent. Where do you come from? Me? Originally London. Chiswick. I wouldn't don't hear any London. Erm well sometimes it might come out is a bit of Devonshire. Devonshire? Yes. That's what it is. I only spent six years of my childhood there during the war years. Well I can hear it. It's a lovely soft soft accent. Oh thank you. Very proud of being Devon Yes. from Devon. Yes. I expect, cos when I came back from there nobody could understand me. Oh. When I went back to London. My youngest daughter's there now. Plymouth. Well outside of Plymouth. Little village. Yeah I was at Dartmouth. Yeah it's lovely isn't it? Oh it was gorgeous. After I was there for six years Yes? I wouldn't come home. I can, I can hear it softly. It's beautiful. I like it. I just wouldn't come home. My mum tried bribery, everything. I hated Lon er, well Chiswick it was sort of I hate London. Chiswick, Acton. Oh I. Mike's witnessing his signature what he's already done. two of them though. Yes, but one of them I'll sign in your presence Maisie and her twenty year old son , not hundred per cent happy about it, I'd prefer older people cos youngest like that are inclined try to put their music on a bit loud or invite their friends in when mum's away, you know, and . No, no, they complain to us because so does the secretary, I mean they're all very nice, they know us and they like us, talk to them when we go there, but any sign of a noise, somebody I'll be on the phone to me. Well that's hope . Yes, I hope he is, she's apparently, she's erm a designer and the girl that makes it she designs the latest beautiful hats and I thought to myself if they're those tall, biggest, you know those tall sort of round sort of like bowler hats, Oh yeah. I, I, remember something,cos I thought they'd look awful stuck on the top of their heads, they weren't sort of like . yes, yes, oh maybe they're hard Probably hard. yes, yes . You can put your lunch in,. . . , take a man with a woman to see some part of . Yes that's right. . I thought Or, or a, eh, the nearest they'll . . Yes, yes of course. I'll give you your's first. Oh lovely. . Cos there was something about it in the Best magazine wasn't there? . Yeah. . . Hello you've dropped a negative don't think it matters . Must remember to take back . Do you want that . I, I've bought you back the whip and I'm just about to start the other one, so hang on to it at the moment, cos I don't like too many books around that I've borrowed, I've got two . . Yeah. . Is it? I put that there so you don't go without. Oh right, oh your house looks nice. . Right, that looks nice across there It goes doesn't it? Doesn't it, yes. Yes it's so . And would, would,trying to take a picture on the telly I think I was just, Oh yeah, you would just starting the film, Aha. that was my birthday camera. Looks nice. I think I was just getting a film . Oh this is this is you here is it?the other side of the , cos I know when we tried to take photo's off John,tried to take photo's of John on the television because he couldn't do it with all the flash or . , he's a beautiful cock bird and he's big and he's typically black bird and his black tail and his bright orange beak Ah, er, yeah. he's got two . Oh. , and I called to Dinda one day look,gosh yeah trying and get a shot of him on a camera, she said I would too, she said try it from upstairs in my bedroom. I tried I saw him one day on , I crept up in my and I took it out of the window and all I've got is the . Oh . Oh what a shame. I did , so I was creeping up like this . They can see movement behind the window pane glass. Yes, oh yes. He was feeding so happy, beautifully I'm hoping it , I don't feel ,Magpie of mine, . . Yes, can you not can you not have , oh you can have a I've not seen one I've never seen one, no, except in the book, I haven't seen it in our, in our, in both books. What, what and in my garden I have a . Oh Rose is . no,stop the care for them. When they're sitting in the middle of road there, I stop, I stop the car and I sometimes they'll sit up and look at you Yeah and you have to wait wait for them. Yeah . Say why, what have erm, I think . Oh I'd hate to hit one of them, oh it's my, it's my horror though, a bird or a wild animal like you see in the, the lane That's right. Is when they . . Yeah . See that doesn't it though? I don't ever remember seeing, but there was we weren't allowed to have hair down, was you?, No, no, no , we had to have ours clipped or, or tied back remember the brown ribbon? Yeah if they got told off . Oh yes or have it slide tied, you weren't allowed to have hair that's not . Oh no, no, oh it had to be tied in yeah. And I was always saying to the girls at school for heavens sake keep your hair back, it's only bunches, whatever, back when they was younger they always had plait or bunches,. Yes. But when they got older you know . Yeah, that's right, yeah , You can't tell a . Oh, I'm, I'm I had it all chopped off. Oh,. it does, it suits her doesn't it like that? I think it does comes home every night And washes it. No,her hair. Oh. . Yeah. Oh no. She's put on weight round here Yeah. if you look at the picture of her . Look she has got that cheeky bit there, Yeah. . . I mean, it certainly suit her better like this doesn't it? Than long hair. But I mean when you're young you can wear anything can't you? . Oh doesn't look funny with the hand bag . , oh it's smashing isn't it? . Well I don't know what he's doing, I can't remember what he's doing oh yes, before we've eaten . Oh yes look at her, look,Oh I like . that's a good one. Mm. There's one good one of you there,back of the head, that's a good one. . Oh it's nice aren't they? . Better . Better, yes, better than erm, some, in the old days when you used to take those photo's they used to be awful didn't they, erm, everybody sort of look's as if they were staring and sort of all Yes, yes, Red eye . Ah, what you doing down there? ah . Aha . Oh I've done about four, but we were having trouble with he want's some books he likes books, but won't give us a clue and You could give him a book token let him do his own . Well that's a good idea , the thing, you see the thing is she says oh, we, I read anything, you know, buy anything, well I said well suppose you've already got it, you know, it's erm, and also we offered him some, some author's names so he didn't like this, and he didn't want that, you see, so, erm, but, in one hand he's saying buy me anything and the other hand he's saying I don't like this and I don't like that Yes, yes that's right, yes. For a few hours. Yeah, Yeah, you've got Do you think that's true? Yeah, would you, but a couple of years because John was busy he bought us all tokens, erm, he bought the others tokens from Woolworths and me token from a body shop and we all,and I we had great fun looking and seeing what we wanted to buy with, with the book tokens, er, maybe, maybe I mention it providing we can't find anything. It's pleasure of going around . Yeah , and, and looking themselves, yeah. The other thing he mentioned for his birthday was, would you believe, was a shirt with er, with sleeves that you can put erm cuff links in, would you believe? He said I've not been able to get one, and I went to he said I thought with an old . Yeah, quite often they do don't, well they used to I don't know if they do . . Yes, but erm . No, no, cuff links look nice don't they? And I said to Polly they must make them, yeah The only thing you can do is . Yeah. Polly's got some nice ones, yeah, yeah. . Yeah got some nice one's I get . Yeah. . Yes, I think they're for myself,. . Yes, that's right, I see, but I said to him we'll try Alder's and the Army & Navy But I shirts even if they're only Marks & Sparks . Yes, I've got yeah I know they did, but I think after a while they stopped doing that I think the latest ones you'll find don't, don't do that, they gave, you know, after a while they gave that up, but I, I must check on that, I must check on . if he wears a long sleeve shirt, as soon as he takes his jacket off, he won't go around with his shirt No , roll his sleeves up. roll his sleeves up, yeah Tom's like that, yes . Even ,. Yes, yes, well I mean, that's, that's, if, I mean if we can get him one for his birthday that, get the problem of our shoulders sort of thing, that's his then, then he, he has to take his . We . Yeah. Yeah. , what can you give him a . Well that's a good idea, as you say, erm, oh I must put . I mean it could be a bottle of Gin Oh he's not. . He was doing so well for three months. When he saw the Yes. and he said you're . Yes, that's right, after three months, yes, and he did that? Yes. Oh, and he's still, he's going to do that right up to Christmas? But he won't eat the meat with potatoes No. the only time he has meat he has to have green salad or maybe a raw vegetable salad. Yeah. But I mean , yeah, yeah , calorie and then for another meal he'll have he'll have this other stuff with a Mm. he can't . No, no,doesn't it? . Yeah, well John always swore by a diet whether he I don't know. That thing I got, you know the Raptou use to Oh yes, yes, help me with the vegetables, all the vegetables, I get so tired chopping yes I don't think it's gonna work, I . Oh why's that Iris? It, it, looked alright, I, you know doing it on the telly, it did everything they said. But didn't see it on the telly, only saw it on the . Oh it was on quite a lot. Sorry I've . Oh no,interest. Why do you think it won't work? This I read . Oh, that's . My are like that, going from the oh er, he said I've taken, taken them out, Have you tried it? No. I haven't even it. Oh. I looked at the illustration and I thought no way is that ever going to do any thing that chops Yeah, it it never slice, or make chips oh it, they showed you pictures of things coming out the squares Yes,chip . . Doesn't take a chunky chop does it? . Well how can it, because it, it, I think it's got to go through the thing here, if you see what I mean, it, it, the chop you'd have to push it through a little bit and then have a, Yeah, a blade. a, yeah,. What's that then?plate, oh I don't Oh that's the thing that you put behind it. She could use that without putting . What, what, what, how can you stop it, how, how, how can you ,. Got to . bigger than . But I can't see any thing here . Push . . . That sliced then, that is slicing,, nothing's got to stop them haven't they? The fact that you've come to the end of the the . I can't think of any thing that would be of It . Now all I can think of doing is pushing it, you can push the turner things into chips then you've only got to chop them one way if you see what I mean, like erm, well is it worth these doing anything else? But why ,chop. I mean, what else would you use it for? Do you use it to slice? or to grate? or to erm No. use the grate like things like . Aha. . I think that's why the , it looks like it. I I think brass is . I've got a oh, I've got a great big chip machine . I was a bit disappointed. Well, yes, I must admit still I still chop But there's nothing in there to say it's from there's nothing on the box to say it's. Well Could you be bothered getting that out unless you're prepared wash all, all the bits afterwards. , I'm sure it's somebody else . Yes. I do because Yeah, somebody else . Well What did you say . Yeah, you, you, get a, a thing on, ah there you are. I thought, I thought it's . Usually they give you a, a thing to return it, you know, a thing that you don't want it ,girls let you take the orders down the ware house, oh,put the return it too cos the, cos there's nothing in there. I,. You can buy those things that you push down on the top like that, and you I thought that you can have one of those that you roll side by side . It's like a knife but it's curved and it's got a . Yes, you just rock it backwards and forwards. Oh ,. I don't know, you . Ah, again, it might, it might . I've, I've got a little knife, I don't know where I got it from, on it, on it, it says steel and it's all broken the blade because, you know, it's been used so much and it's sharper for even being broken than any thing else I've got. Great. Yeah, I don't know where I got it from , , no, heaven knows what will happen to me when I've, when I got it any more, I use it all the time. . Well I'll go back, oh, back to me pictures and flowers one of you Rocky. . Whether I arrived. . Yes I will. Now I'll put the kettle on The have been a lovely colour this year, haven't they?, I suppose that's sort of weather, what, this is most intrigue you know, what made you take them? Something special, we hadn't seen any thing Mm. and erm, it's that, extraordinary you won't be able to see them All white. all these are white, like , and I couldn't make Which one is it?, this one on your right, the one with your silvery leaves, when it in the breeze,sun shining, father Christmas tree, lovely isn't it? All through the year incredible. Eh, eh,pointed it out , the leaves were so good, haven't got the . No. No, there was . But they're all thick and golden and oh so beautiful. Mm That was where I was trying to get the blackbirds . Quite dark. Shame isn't it? Right were the black bird is, there, I focused from him and . . He shot off . No, he didn't he stayed there . Stood there , stayed there. I kept waiting for him to turn his head, so it, get, one properly. Good view, never mind you'll have another go . Have another go. You can't stop flashing because it No . Dinda can over ride hers, with her Can she? with her very posh camera. Yes. Puts , but she knew that if she'd bought me one with all those buttons, I'd off just confused her , I'm not fussed. I'm not very technically minded. I did, I did Well, that would be nice talking about electro magnetic waves how the Russian could, try and to use electro magnet magnetic waves to make a Oh yeah. Yeah. so that the upper atmosphere would be intensified in density Oh, oh and if they could do it time Mm. then they knew when a missile was coming in Oh I see. instead of a missile coming in withstanding two thousand degree centigrade Mm, mm . , and then it make it down to make it two thousand centigrade . Yes, yes, that's right and it, it would be hotter wouldn't it? yes. Yes. Get more friction on that, clever of somebody to think of that, didn't they? Yes, well done No. Obviously it's a lot . That's what I said, well that's a lot Sounds discouraging if that's how were going to wipe ourselves out. Oh,. We ought to really, although I said we'll leave them a lot of behind than the dinosaurs. . Mm, yeah . . I know that motor mechanics Yeah, to think They said you I said yes . . , it's the mechanics fault? . . Oh yes, Iris that's nice. I must come in and get on with it. Then Joan can give it to you. Look I'll give that to Joan and Joan can give it to you , watch it, you don't steel, no, no, you don't take things, you wait till it's given to you, no I'm watching you don't you dare beg at me, don't you dare, don't you dare, wait for Joan to give it to you , I've got you in me power have I? Come on sit up then You have to throw it . Sit up, sit, sit, sit , oh You have to . Oh , good girl aren't you? Well do it. Oh, look, look, Robert Maxwell funny isn't it? . I wonder if those two young boys knew what his, their father was doing? I feel ever so sorry for them though. Yes, I mean they've got, they've probably got less than nothing haven't they? Sell the boat. . . . No,. Standing empty in the mansion, oh . . sugar and Small sugar, very small sugar, little drop of milk. This little girl of erm,, Terry isn't she sweet,, when she was doing her dancing , she lovely reminds me of our kids Yeah. when they were little. Yeah, yeah. They used to do that didn't they? They used to do that sort W P C. Shall I get a plate of biscuits? , his lord ship. loose a little bit of the tummy again at the moment, coming back. It, it went, it went from I ate chocolate , but that, I mean I didn't . oh really, oh well hope it all goes . You every body . but I don't drink spirits, I don't like spirits, but I enjoy a glass of wine What you want? I have the small glass which is half tonic Yes. topped up with wine. Yes. Three of the tall wine glasses . Now I'm spending a small fortune on wine now. not spending so much on the beer. No, well, in a, in, I'll, I'll pay . you see, the real , four pounds forty for a You getting through that in two days? Oh no, one, one evening. One evening. About two each. Oh . But does he look alright still? Is he beginning to look haggard or anything? Keeps the trousers at the back of . Oh yes. No, no,got a pair of trousers that do that. Yes, and he goes arriving he's only got Frances then James and that I'm sure is . Yes you do, that's right you do Hold them on with your , I'm sure that's not . . I'm sure if you work on . More like the sort of things that I wear in trousers . Yeah, they're nice aren't they? Yeah. I got my new trousers the only option was, navy, black or grey, oh erm, hang on a minute, I've got . Yeah but it's in the last brochure had the extra warmth ones, which I like Yes. but erm Did, did you give a . , yeah.. Did it, did it have , does it have to be a, a . What? Thirty quid for . The thing that, you see I was going to send off for a pair of gloves cos I can't find my thermal , but when I looked on and saw all the bits and bobs of paper that come, there wasn't erm, little slip you get with a pound off, for postage and packing, which I've been getting recently haven't you? for erm Oh yes, definitely . I mean about, what, recently I've been getting it for ages and this time it wasn't there, and I, and I thought to myself dam it I'm not going They must have just forgotten Yeah. That's what I got Yes and but, but they're I don't bother with these you can't drive in them No,. and I thought I'm not gonna pay a pound postage No you're right. I'm not gonna pay a pound postage for erm, a pair of gloves that cost five ninety nine No. , so I don't know whether they've stopped doing it, they haven't said any thing. I mean several times I've bought things from them, there's stately homes, they do the same thing, don't they? Yes. And the , several times I've bought picture of them particularly because I haven't had to pay the postage, Yes. postage . Sometimes you see, I quite often oh I like that and that, beautiful things for the house or Yeah maybe for the kids, and then I see add, I see at the bottom add two pounds fifty, yeah, and I think to myself no, no way, postage and packing . if it's big and it looks worth it, but for a pair of gloves to pay a pound postage, er, er, you know . I got, don't know if they stop doing it altogether now, I really don't know what erm, you see, I've got an old one, but it says on it on the voucher it's not trans none transferable. Do they mean none transferable from person to person or from book to book, erm, for everything it doesn't say and if they know, both of them stopped sending out those Oh. stupid reason, if you don't send them enough money, you have a cheque and use your Barclay card number . Then I make sure I put enough money on the barclay card the day after it arrives . send a cheque which can get nicked, send the barclay card number, then pay it off . That's right, we've, we've, we pay most things by barclay card and . Does your But you still right on your .. Yes, what's, what's happened if we were at Sandhurst Auction it would go to Reading and then be re-directed to Aldershot and then . . Oh. send you these things, I go in for all the competitions and I never put a stamp on the envelope unless I'm ordering something Oh. . I don't remember getting . well, well it wasn't those, it's sort of the gloves they sell, erm , Oh . were, wasn't those gloves, they, it, it was their thermolactal that they, they sell always cos they do them in black and grey That's right. maroon and erm, navy, which is what I like, and they are warm, and I like to wear my gloves all the time . , I've got a grey duffel coat and I've got short grey boots, Mm, mm. I wanted grey trousers Mm, yeah or maroon which I've got Yeah or black. Yeah, Mind you, they, they all erm, the grey maybe erm , They're warm . they all sort of match in. Going slow, I don't know. Oh. I'm glad, I'm glad I remembered to ask you, and erm, you didn't get one either. I think it's a good idea, got it all arranged. Yeah, so do I, I sound awful cos Peggy and I phoned up the funeral arranger and say my mum's died, Yes. her name was so and so Yes. and he said yes I've got it all in hand Yes. would you like me to . I, I, I, think it's a good idea, I really do. We don't, we, I don't even know where Penny want's to be buried. Yeah. make sure Keith our want's to be cremated Mm. and have his ashes scattered from his aeroplane , by his self. . Oh dear. The other morning, earlier on in the week, the phone rings quarter too six,you know, it takes a while doesn't it before you realise what it is? Yeah. and any way went down and answer it and I could hear him talking, erm, you remember he bought this aeroplane back from Americ erm from Australia, this one of and it was Australian Air Force one that he had on Australian's , erm came back and stayed in England for a little while and then he went back to Australia,just killed himself . Oh. Told me land and nobody, and a passenger, whether he was driving it or the passenger I don't know. He was Australian?. No he was, he was but he was quite high up in the Royal Australian Air Force and having today which must have been in the middle of the night because Thursday, bit behind aren't they Australian's? Yes. A big erm , funnily enough, although three of the other chaps that were involved in , erm, one of them really upset me cos they run up together, he was navigator on together . I mean he was a super chap, really lovely chap, ever so nice. Yeah. . , every time a pilot get's killed they have a pilot count their hours and Well yes, and, and because he was young, because he was nice,. The best trip Paddy had ever done like that, because they were such a lovely bunch Yeah. but erm, . all of a sudden saying something about it out of the blue, you know, and . I'll be glad when he's got his . When did this happen? This morning! No, he's being buried today, I think it must of happened last Friday, or something like that. Yes, yes , yeah, it's funny . That would be about . . Yeah,. Any way, it's just that,. Is this . No there's one place where you can put, the wedge of cotton wool in teeth away No, no, but, bearing up, I mean they were made before his teeth were taken out,his plates had been gone, and they just add it, the, the extra teeth to it and they didn't know that it, it hadn't, you know, taken all the rest of the teeth out, it was then going to be further up in his mouth Mm. and catching a place up here, and he didn't catch it before. Said it got broke,. When he answered the phone,lot of,. Well,. I said if you don't get any satisfaction come and see . Mm. . never satisfied with it,the dentist that I have,. He looks so young to me. Mm, well they do look young don't they?. I had a baby there you see . I was recommended to go to this lady who's Irish and then she's gone back,, and I've never, I mean, the examination was quick and painless he said, but just keep an eye on that double on there, erm, there's a little tiny crack in it Mm. your age probably . We'll just give them a scale and polish, I said oh with this, you know, Yes. and all this scrapping and burning your tongue or catching your l lip of something Mm. , it's all done with some sort of ultra sound thing. Oh really. . Yes, it's all new . It's incredible. Mm. And Dinda said she needed a filling, a re-filling actually and she said it's the first that she's been to a dentist that she could remember that she didn't notice the needle coming in, part she hates is the needle in the gum . Yeah, me too , yeah, yeah. Well I had that with this little locum, but er, a South African , didn't feel a thing, mind you a lot of fillings came out thought just had to go back and have it put in again, but she drilled such a small whole that, that, the dentist I saw, another nice young man, cos my dentist had gone , she's re-filled it, and going to be alright because her fillings out and it was a bit rough, they didn't sort of goes inwards sort of Mm, mm . and erm it's sort of the difference between . . Maybe telephone you about your not having . Well I have told him, I said to him he is, he is . awful with he's big and strong, that's why I always like gynaecologists who are fairly well built Mm. they don't have to exert any strength, therefore they're much more gentle. Gentle, that's right. I think it's more, sort of The new ones, I mean, the youngest they've all got a, erm, different, they've all got different That's right. they've all got different, they've all been taught different ways of doing things and, and really in a, when you thing of the old boys they're all erm,date, I mean they've got the modern equipment, but, they don't use it much. Yes. he must be knocking thirties that . Well yeah, that's right , yes I thought this girl was about seventeen, she had a mini skirt on Yeah. long curls and er, you know, a, a then she, she, she looked a real dolly bird Yes. very pretty and er, it looks as if she ought to have been up the disco having a dance , any way . . weekend. You know that Dinda and I booked college,in June Mm, mm. that is so popular Yeah. it's so, all these horses and the beautiful . . Lovely yeah. balcony, the organised is worthy of the Albert Hall. choir is beautiful, the candles being light it, it really is , Very , and it's a beautiful chapel of course. So Sunday aha. and service is their was really to get, to make sure we could park and get in Mm. we need to be there by half past six Mm. we could of phone up, what two . Yes. Erm, and feeling there was it must of been he said today I've cooked Sunday lunch and erm, she ate half of it and I thought then she finished it . Oh good, yes .. She didn't , she didn't throw up or anything, she said, no, no, she she still , said she gets, that's where she wants, start doing everything for Christmas and after half Yeah . an hour she suddenly oh . And, and how long is it? two and a half.. Well, well it's a little bit dodgy go and put her feet up . She's lucky to have a doctor who just says bed rest and signs a sick note and Yes . . Oh I'm glad she's improved. I've got all sorts of people on . . Oh yes, we'd check them, erm I haven't got any this Sunday, Lisa Marie that's his eldest daughter by his first wife. Yes. this Sunday. And I said oh that's right, he said and I, I'd come up and see her the first we'll either take her out for a drink afterwards, I thought that doesn't seemed to mix in one glass, and I going to a pub because she's , but there you are, and she so's erm, can I bet you'll stay a bit, she said oh, I think December is your like it to be , well obviously it's getting him settled you mustn't over , she must off pushed him and then he's said erm, I, I've told mum and dad that if they want to go as well, they can go . told mum and dad they if that's alright, what can you say when he's already told mum and dad, that were waiting . You have been right ,. But I had to say I'm sorry Richard, and he said you're very welcome to come to the service Mm. Mm. but I thought to myself, thirty youngest being concerned in one big go, every, one of them would have at least four Yeah. people, parents or Mm. brother's and sister's and parents,. I must have one Sunday in the year when we have Sunday lunch at mid-day and not in the evening, because, you know I get to carol services on And he said oh that's alright, mum and dad eat mid-day anyway so they only want, erm, they only want biscuits and cake and maybe a bit of bread and butter what can you do? I don't know, I, I, I mean I know what I'd do cos I'm terrible I would make sure I went out ,. Would make a , I'm not as kind hearted as you are . I mean he's such a good son in law to me, he really is, I mean he, he, he'll help Pete with any thing, especially when they lived here, he'll help Peter with any thing and erm, he's very, very good to Deb, he get's in after a days work, he does the shopping and housework, look's after the cats which he doesn't particularly like Mm. . , oh well. cooks the family because she can't really,her stomach is strong enough. I've read somewhere a long while ago,there was some sort of warning and I can't remember the details you know. , they don't, you don't need to worry about . Oh, I read it as a warning . But I said , yes different Perhaps they've changed their minds again, it's always , there's, they've got to frighten you all the time with sometime like that haven't they? Mm, mm. Well in . . Saves a lot of . I think there's something . . Yeah, yeah, make sure you . . cats and dogs being in the country there, were always about, the cat starts to go out just the same as the dogs did, they didn't and they didn't , even when we inherited that old, old tom cat in Sussex, he stayed with us and he, he mangy old thing wasn't he,in one of the stables never accursed to me to . This cat had kittens which one of the cats she looked after them,I think my mother changed the lining Oh yeah. in the box where the kittens were . Oh . teaching the dog to do his business indoors. Let the mother's clean up the baby and then, then teach them how to go outside and then the bitch will with her puppies I think I would of liked a cat I know, I know Brian wouldn't at least three but , and this, and this wasn't really big enough and they use two side by side, whenever they were late or away for a weekend I took over and see to the cats feed, they were sweet erm used to come on the porch and meow at me, it's my dinner time, come on, just get not time yet, used to come to the porch, and tell me, they used to know when I wasn't coming home, how do they do it? Mum wasn't coming so she'd come and fetch me. But the two little trays in the middle of that beautifully re-furbished kitchen with every mod con, the whole of the floor was taken up with sheets of news papers, two big litter trays and a sack full of . The only job I didn't thank god I'm not three of them. in and out all day Can't they use the . so many trees and woods and things. Yes One of them a bit off colour or , you know, hadn't been trained. Is Debbie not coming up . No, no, I said to Richard is, is, Debbie not feeling well enough to come here, no I took her for a little ride round the . The devil lane's have all got those Yes, yes, they have haven't they?, yes. Oh dear, pity isn't it Lady . Come on Rocky come on come on Sorry. That's alright, that's ok were in the garden . , you heard didn't you, you heard that, you didn't hear as much as mum, your mother did, but they do, they erm, they do sense the things, we, we get quite . . We, we erm, we get . Almost the same colour when you first . Yeah, yeah. You haven't got a . No I haven't, I go slower I do ha, ha. You think , you don't . Well I mean it's, Everybody's got to try. Well there's a even safer way that those on the . Yeah, yeah, cos our, our be inclined to leave something on the front door step and go. it's a sign of Oh yes. . You don't want Oh I've got a tuna sandwich for lunch. Oh yum, yum, but let's not . I'm not supposed to be eating very much for lunch so. Oh were having cheese. And I have got a little desert,.. Goody. Thank you for the whip. For the whip? The whip. Oh the book. Thank you dear, lovely. It was very good wasn't it? Yes, yes, he was a poor little sole all the way through wasn't , but, erm, she doesn't sort of tell you much about the good times at the end No. which was . Have you? Third one . Try to pass it on to you. I got my first one in the middle of November. Yes, we, we got one as well right now, he said don't put a date on it because I've got . I said er you might put housewife or you might put market researcher down, he said whatever you like so that's that one .. . I get me pen. You don't want to use the same pen. No, no, I've got a here. Oh that's no trouble she said . Yeah. I'm stuck on that town, I've done it all but for that rotten town. I think, I don't think it's Oh you haven't done it either. I have done it. . I've done it and I've sent it off No . It's the lens isn't it? The tow , it's the, the town is, do you want me to tell you? Yes,. It's . And the town it's, oh yes, e, y, e, is the town. Yes, and what ever you, whatever they say, catch is it? . Actually I looked up in all my reference books . is a fisher it's the only one I know, I mean I know a few . If I'd tried I'd of said yes . I ,. Yes, that's right , yes last week there was a word and it wasn't in my dictionary and I never got round to looking at anything else, trying to find it and . I think that's why, I think . Mm, I couldn't find it in my, in my, in my dictionary so I didn't send it off last week. I didn't either I must of . . Don't know why it in there Oh another I put it inside cos I looked in I looked up in the atlas and there is a town called . I remember the town of Ayr. Oh do you, where Yes . is that? Where is it is it in the Midlands somewhere? I remember somewhere, you don't hear of them. No, I didn't, I didn't, no I thought well if, if there's a there is a place . I did it so quickly, all the rest, I thought with The Times crossword, I'm, I whooping through this like mad. Yes, but there's always one isn't there. And I sat and last week it was something down here. . Have you finished yours now? Yeah. . Oh I think to my self . Oh you never know you might win that , I only want to win it cos . doubt very much whether . John or Bob? Oh were getting John for lunch on Sunday . . . That's something isn't it? Well it is something, because he's obviously you know, the mother He's then . with the little children that he went with last year died during the year she was a West Indian or something two lovely little children gone somewhere else to live with their aunt,. He's funny isn't he, he's no interest in settling having a family of his own. He can't find anybody,, sort of girl that he wants to marry . the, the fellow who's her favourite at work, she said he's a, a lovely fellow, he solves everybody's problems, anybody who's got a problem with work or family or anything always asks to see Phil, he's gay. and the other chap that brought it round was very nice and we were talking and she said we worked at Panasonic and I said to him said yes, and I, I said oh I know somebody who works for Panasonic,and she said oh they probably know each other and she told me . It's ever such a big place it's huge . I know,, I know, we, we, drove passed it, but I mean it was, it was sort of quite erm, coincidence, Yes. and er Strange. she didn't tell me his . He's a very nice man. He wasn't even, he was a lovely chap the one that walk round, he's quite round. I said to Dinda well there's no reason why you shouldn't go out for a drink with him or No, or a disco or something. no. Erm she said well perhaps his boy friend wouldn't like it. No .. Oh . See that's what you usually get in these things, thing to send them back if they're not suitable Yes that's right if you don't want them , yes. Shelve dividers, that's what he'll want . Oh you got some shelve dividers Yes, keep his socks out of Dinda's knickers. . I used to have a piece of cardboard up there shelve dividers sounded like a good idea. Mm. It wasn't, it wasn't bad either because they're only four ninety nine Mm. one set, I think there's four in a set. Is that Curiosity Oh is that . curiosity shop, looking like big letters at the top Mm,. but that, that is . Mm, mm. I said for heaven sake girls, not only trying to cut down on the expensive just because obviously trying to start up on their own. Yes. and erm, Debbie and Richard with a prospect of another family on the way, as it, every year we say we'll cut down and every year it seems to get out of hand Yes. and I said the other thing to cut down on, I know it's a beautiful around the tree to have all these fantastic wrapping papers and Yes , bows and ribbons and, and Mm , erm the crisped coloured yeah, yeah ribbons and things it does, but there you are. Oh but it's they go straight into a the bin Yes, that's right. to be burned or, I don't mind so much if it's recycled I think why don't we all agree to use recycled paper Yes. this year, at least were saving some of the trees then. Yeah, I, I bought generally . Oh what a good idea. loads of it. I've got a load of it. Mm. Got a load of it, still upstairs from last year,. Mm, well it always, I mean it's the sort of thing keep . Well usually I don't buy enough, so then I go out and buy another package of it , Mm , and that is too much. mm, and I've sort of. so have I. . . Give it to . Yes I've done it, I've ordered, ordered it from Katie , bunch of spring flowers, I know she loves flowers, and, and it'll, it'll give some not very big are they? What's that? Your drawer dividers. Mm, shelve divider, slide that on the bottom of the shelve. Oh I see. It could do with being that long for my airing cupboard. . and the towels don't shall keep bath towels on the right and Yes , on the left. isn't it?. But this, Dinda's underwear is so flimsy, bras, and pants and ankle socks and nylon, then , minuet space for airing off my bras, usually tuck them behind the pipes so they don't get mixed up with but Keith's see rummages through the socks and underwear That's for the airing cupboard? Mm. , you can put one with . Oh of course I could. Yeah, Except we've got , we've got, fish net nylon stuff over the bottom because otherwise things kept falling through. Mm, yeah. I used to have tea towels laid across the bottom keep them right Yeah. , so he left it all open and I kept finding rolled up socks and of course there's in the bottom of the airing cupboard where the tank is, and to pick them up and give them a shake and put them back again. Ooh that's good. Mm. Not nice fat rolls like I usually get, he'll just have to make do with this won't he? Mm That's one of these . Mm,. It's a good selling postage and packaging, Mm. they still leave you room to put it on the bottom of the thing and I just scrubbed that . Yeah . Mind you I think if you sent it without any postage and packaging charges I'm pretty sure that they would er, they would send you the goods because they wouldn't want to loose a good customer. Well, no. . Yeah, yeah,. I've got a card holder as well, and I can never find my card holder Oh dear . when I want it. . Yes, this can go on the wall. . It's rather pretty look, snowman all doing things. Mm, mm. It's a big Mm, do it . . Oh it's , they are, they are a bit. Oh and the dust, yeah. yeah, yeah. And the dog jumps and wags his tail and then Mm. Christmas cards go flying I did take a picture of all my birthday cards, Yes I saw them. and Debbie's flowers. Mm. I don't think much of the packaging paper. Mm, I don't think so. No I really got it for the er card holder. . it's two ninety nine. Oh Christmas grumble about that Not wrapped packed . was it the card holder one pound fifty Yes, mm. quite a lot there, but it isn't the sort of paper we normally use you see, we normally use that shiny paper. . Yeah. . Oh it does hurt me to see how much the girls have spent on Christmas wrapping paper Yeah, mm. and it's all crumpled up shoved into an empty box or an empty bag we go round and collect the little bows and , oh yes, keep it as a birthday present, yes, yes,. keep it, keep it, glue them back on again can't you? Oh I can't bear to throw those sticky bows away, when they're not, they're not Beautiful colours aren't they? Yes. I, I, if nobody's looking I'll keep the paper because you can always . I do, I do. Use it on birthdays. Use it on the boxes with labels as well, oh it's not bad, it's not bad, have got a shiny finish. Oh it has, oh it's nice . If you get it too cheap Yeah. and you're packing a book the corners will come through. That's right, yeah. Oh that's not bad at all. Yeah. oh that's pretty. Mm, that's lovely, what about this bit?. I think they're pheasants Oh, oh. tail feathers peacocks. peacocks. . Great big . . Hippopotamus. Mm, mm. . paint brushes. you might have a grand child to wrap up something for. Yes, The paper,have the paper already with a couple of . yes. , I haven't heard of for ages. No, no,you talk to Mary, you know, Do you ever hear from her? She does, but she doesn't know how from what I can make out, she doesn't know how long, much longer is going to stick at Reading or she's going to do her usual, stick at something for two, two months . Reading? Reading, she's, she got herself, I told you she got herself a place in Reading College, to do her, an English A Level,. Oh, Reading you see, I think of Reading, Berkshire. Yeah, that's right, Reading, Berkshire. Oh no, you didn't tell me. Didn't I? No. Oh, well she did . No, that would of stuck in my mind. Yeah. She moved down to Reading? She got herself a job in Reading college, she got somebody to take her down there and a place to get an English A Level, and Mary said it's a thing with her she wants to get this English A Level cos her father had one and she feels that is she could get and English A Level it would impress him, he, she spends her life trying to impress her father who doesn't really takes much notice of her,. Yeah. And she started off quite well there, she was a little bit erm lonely and missed her and everything but she gave the appearance sticking it out until I spoke to Mary last time when she said oh . She must of got a grant. She, she's there on Social Security which means she can only do part time education because if you're on the Social Security you have to available to do a job Yes. so that Which is reasonable isn't it? yes, so, so, that you can only do education part time. So Mary said she, she came back up to the, a little while ago she said she didn't get do something Mm, mm. and even an English A Level's not much good to her, yet she . She should do what Dinda done, I mean Dinda went to evening school for her computer Mm. A Level while she was working during the day Mm. This is, this is it. Paid for her to help . . Erm, living there because all can do at the moment, is work in a shop or a restaurant or something like that and she doesn't get paid as much as she'll get on Social Security so it's not worth it, It's terrible. it's terrible,awful showing her sense of responsibility and doing what she says she's going to do. Wouldn't she of done better to take erm a six month's course in secretarial skills? Well Mary said if I thought for a minute that she would stick at it, I would pay for her but Yes, yes . she won't, she's, she's just on the, oh I don't want to work in a boring office we've, we've tried to say not, you don't have to work, it's an in, it's an in to what you want Exactly , to do, you, you get into the boring office and sort of, yeah, yeah . it opens the door, it opens the door , that's why both my younger girls, I mean Diane's a different policy any way cos she wants to be a , but with the other two, who worked interest in computers and when they left college I gave them crash course in, in typing not in shorthand because they don't they don't need shorthand nowadays , Really don't need that now, no . but I find it useful. Well yes, but I mean, it, now they do audio typing and computing don't they, doesn't computing . Yes, yes, that's right, they use , yeah , but I insisted that it were open doors for you as jobs were so hard to get, I said it were open doors for you and it did it helped them both. Yeah,. Once you're keyboard, . keyboard something Mm. you've got a keyboard skill and they, they can teach you . these word processors and they were talking . Oh yeah, oh you talk to him? Yeah. I think I . Anyway it, it doesn't alter the fact that if she wanted to do something, erm,really . Last I heard she was living with her for . well she wasn't, she was according to her she, she was allowed to use pity, because she, she could, I said to Derek could have been so nice you and her, a little firm together working for the good of the two of you That's it. now all, all that's Mary But I mean, a lot of people don't glorify on the jobs they do, I mean Dinda she said you know, it's awful being the one who's getting all the all day long, kind of explained and help them with their problems, sympathise with, with something that doesn't work she'd much rather be outdoors than being a or looking after , but she said you know, it's, it's a secure job and these days I think well I'm not I run my own car and they don't really think that Well then, somehow other people seemed to be . Think she's absolutely,recession on, so many people Mm. all day long I'm getting phone call from . Mm Erm. People who,camcorder or a camera or a video, video camera, they do say that, that one microwave people don't seemed to have cut No. microwave a new vacuum cleaner or whatever, I mean all the things they make, music centre that is a luxury really. Most people are buying those sort of things I know it's one of the last things I'd would Vacuum cleaner, yes. Mm. Having been through the spate of using a clapped out vacuum cleaner that didn't do its job, and how different it is now Yes , that I've got one that works. I remember when Miriam got married they had nothing Yeah. they had their hi-fi . It was the only thing they had, they'd got nothing except , I think it was . I didn't get a vacuum cleaner. , we, we got our washing machine washing machine, remember it, we used to bolt it to the floors Yes, yes. we, we weren't allowed to have that one, until we could pay for it outright. Yes. . Didn't have a fridge. No, no. Not until after we no , moved to Maidenhead. not until you could pay for it , you didn't do, go . Remember my washing machine where I used to turn the handle at the top, heat it up with gas Yeah,, yeah, yeah . and if I'd got something big and heavy you used to say to me bring it down and put it in my big machine. Mm I used to bring down quilts and my machine wasn't big enough and in any case I couldn't possibly lift them once they were No, no , full of water. no, but nowadays the, the machines don't take , mind you because it was take a lot of water, waste . Mm. Nowadays it's Don't they, don't they have I know, I know if I've got a towel in mine or a big thing and, and it's all happens to be on one side One side , of the, the drum and it starts to erm spin yeah the whole thing goes woof and it all seems Really . to move to one side, yeah, cos it's standing in an area and it isn't flat against . That seems rather something heavy. Mm, mm, Yes. . But I often look back and think well if was the girls who insisted that it's time mum had a proper automatic washing machine Yeah. and then only had it four years, but I used to it was, it's such a waste that washing machine, I think maybe I've done a few shirts hand washing and all the water, whereas in the twin tub I'd of done the light weights, heated the water up done the shirts and , erm, got the put in, maybe towels and then I'd put, re-heat the water if, if it wasn't really soiled and I could do either all the dogs stuff or, or my dusters Yeah, mm. and then after that you've got all the water left and it cleaned the sink as you as the pump pumped it out, you could go quickly with a brush round the sink and suds cleaned all the sink for you, or you could with your pail. Yeah, or, or even with the garden . Oh yes, I used to save it for the garden too. Now, now, with it, the one thing in that's it, and all the water's wasted, you can't re-use it for anything. No. I suppose I could if I could pull the machine out and were, were the pipe goes over into the waste I mean people do that in the Isle of Wight aren't they, were they've got to, need to Mm. they unhook their washing machine Oh yeah, yeah , and they put it into a, a an old bath or anything yeah an old tank yeah, so that they can save the water and use it for other things. yeah. Mm, once he said girls I will get your mother a proper washing machine, I agree she shouldn't move the heavy towels garden No. pinks. Pinks, yes we did get it, oh they are in I think I've seen him , I haven't. Abu Dabi was the place I was trying to think of I knew it was a funny name Aha. that's where he used to go out there the first one started in December . . All he has to do Abu Dabi Yeah. London Airport where he has to . Paddy has never had any body aboard the S E one eleven with a video camera has he?. They have, he has, what do you want it for?. Well, for Pete, I saw it advertised it's a pilot or whatever erm videos Mm. thirty pounds Wow . it's a two hour video with a it takes you through landing at Liverpool and somewhere else and studying. Oh really, aha. Mm, all the take offs and Yeah , all the checks aha . Oh . And I thought Pete will love this . Oh yes. He's actually done it with Paddy Yes. and I thought I wonder if somebody will ask, you know Paddy No, erm Paddy was actually flying the aeroplane that did it, cos he's landing and take off was so impeccable and he's training. , well, I mean he, he knows the one and only . Well exactly, but he trains other, other pilots on them first, thought they might of . No, he erm, I say with videos that they, they send a video over an Australian thing, this chap's the other two and one of them had a camera and he went aboard to test pilot it and he took the all around the place round er having flown six five minutes and he paid he tried to things that had gone wrong, whatever it was and erm, he, he, he's . , yes. Maybe they've taken it from that video . No, well, I shouldn't think so, but, but I should think they've done it on purpose, they've actually gone and done it. Yes. As a, as a . All I want to know is The backward countries have got more aeroplanes that we have. Well one of, one chaps got seven. Huh. . . That, those, those two that Paddy brought back from Australia apparently does it . One that queen use, they'd love that. Yeah, yeah. She . As far as I know that's, that's going out as well, erm in fact he went over to Dublin to get a bit of training erm idea in pilot . They're all up there, there won't be any left any where else. I . Yes,. Can't believe it No. it seems so big and impregnable. Oh dear but there was that was a video Oh . Oh me, I would of thought more and more people would fly rather rather than perhaps the business men aren't , looking over the old New Jersey, or New Walkie something like that , a veteran . A lot of the Americans did . Can't think why and I can't think why they should think they mustn't go on Pan Am cos Pan Am are a target No. any American airlines Mm. any British airlines could be a target. Mm . Mm, mm should know . . coats sitting on you? George smoking. I said look, Joan's had her eye on she doesn't smoke, Paddy doesn't smoke pipe on a chair. He doesn't smoke at all,. Certainly give them , yeah and I said Joan will tell you not only does her but the table that he sits on and the wall around it , Wall around it, yes , absolutely filthy, oh I can't be like it, I said she didn't ground it just dirt dirt from the dog running and the vacuum cleaner it does doesn't it? I said that's what it's for, yeah, yeah. If it, it wasn't dirty then it wouldn't be . So what I do is, I, I turn one off at night downstairs and I put one on in the bedroom Yes. I've got one in the bedroom, and er, in the morning I turn one of in the bedroom and try and remember to turn the one off in the turn the light out downstairs. their light. It's very difficult, it's very difficult at my age to remember all these . Oh if any one can fair enough. Oh put mine on the mantelpiece, I don't, I don't know whether they like to . Oh television attracts dust any way doesn't it? Yes . But I, I must . Takes forever, takes him forever. Yes Yes, cos he's got one of those erm, oh dear what's it called, it's got a big thing tube and stuff and it's got one of those erm bits round the outside it goes on what do you call those er, and you, you squeeze it don't you Oh yes , that's right and it comes down. I've got some of that down at Cambridge,got more control Yes and it's very hard to push any way Yes. this one it just comes out like soft rubber Mm. and you just fill in the gaps Yes, yes, when Paddy tried to do ours in the flat need to use small screw drivers to make the, the . Mm. and of course it was all squashed up either side, we have to wait until it's dry now. Yes. It's smelt to high heaven It does smell doesn't it? Oh, oh it's strong, he said and you shouldn't leave it till ten o'clock at night, then it's on a cold night and have to open the windows Mm. the bathroom window all wide open when I went upstairs to bath, I thought I, I . oh dear. When he wrenched his back he wasn't doing anything in the house, when he wrenched his back all he was doing was lifting the carton of the back seat of the car. . It shows that something stupid and it just went,spine, and he was sitting on the pavement out there for three or four minutes in agony, Really. had he done it when he was lifting, like putting the bath in or something, I could understand it Yeah, yeah. or put, lifted part of his precious machine. Yeah You ready for your lunch? Oh yawning. I thought really done all haven't done all that much, cos I was alone most of the time Mm, mm. The make you, sort of what were doing when making another member of staff, so there's a going on full time having free coffee like Dinda did, much change it to be , but I mean it's just there for free, all day every day, she's now ten penny piece in, they get a card, get a little pin pricked on, every time they used it up to twenty they get twenty cups of coffee on its card . no, they loose it so of course they have to go and buy another card . Every time I do the laundry I bet there's a coffee machine card in there, shirt pocket, there's two there this morning. Oh I guess that, that means that's all right when it, did you coffee machine . seventeen thousand pounds if he gave them a free cup of coffee. Well he, he, he given them a free cup of coffee it'll be alright, but he didn't, he gave, the machine took ten P pieces so he provided them with the ten P pieces to put in and then when it was full up he'd empty it out and give them all ten P pieces back So he was given them coffee. So he was, for it was, it was a perk, or something like that,I, I couldn't really understand what they, they were getting at . I couldn't understand it either. I thought that was absolutely . To charge him I mean, somebody gets a company car Mm. the tax man charges him, who is, who's got the use of the company car Yes, yes. doesn't charge the boss No, that's right, mm. Well I think expenses I'd should imagine that's written off against it. Well he, he said if they, if, if, some, get a visitor in and I give them a cup of coffee well that's all right, but I don't know if it's money or, or like maybe, maybe . But it seems to me it's the person, people drinking the coffee who are getting the perk, therefore they should have twenty pounds a year added for free coffee providers Mm. worth twenty pounds a year or whatever it is worth Well he he was saying that, that the boss was the one that provided the money that the chap was . So he, that was definite, yeah. If he was given them tokens or something like that, it would of been alright, but I, I, I a couple of weeks ago Perhaps now they're not doing it then . I've forgotten the details on it . Well imagine what Panasonic are going to own Yeah. giving out those great big blocks of , all getting as much as . Well, this, this is a lot of people, of er to erm . Oh I . he, he was sort of on loan to another company Mm. and they say film industry department, Wakefield somewhere got John's name out of the blue, so that, don't know anything else about it because he's, he's always been seen by you know , this, this other company, and he got three tax eighty seven, eighty eight, eighty eight, eighty nine, ninety, and one what, were the estimate was twenty five thousand pounds, and five thousand pounds Yes , and he hadn't even earned that had he? not a chance, he, he never even earned that much money in all his , no but I mean having, having had the income tax done that to you however ridiculous that it is you've got to do something about it , yeah and having been sort of helping . The finally he decided what he had to right back to say, you know, I, I, tell you this is how much I've earned Yeah this is how much tax I've paid, this is, I mean if you go on the dole too unless you've made a note of it there is no record of how much you've been paid on the dole, they, they give John the what he calls a giro, takes it to the bank and cashes it and there is no, no record of and when he's been on the dole. I mean he's got plenty of every single bit of papers that they're given all the time. Yeah , but the D S S must have it,. Well I, I don't know how keen they are on giving them out, just . . Actually it was lucky for us because when John rang up the For his firm. for his firm, erm, he said I'll, I will see to it, which she's doing at the moment but , but erm, I don't know how far At least it's got an end now with the others if he's on the film company, he's got an end now hasn't he now he's got . Yes I suppose so, but I feel sorry for Simon cos you see John and Geoff they can both go on the dole but Simon's is . The or, or anything so at the moment . . Any way the thing is erm, I hope only have a What he's, he's earns, er pay tax on everything he's earned Yeah never had a not for all the things No, no and er, he's been on the dole admittedly he did go on the dole If you're on the dole for part of the year, your own salary is do they add your dole money to the salary, charge you tax on that , Oh yes, oh not half you see so I think, not half I said to Paddy I think that they do that John will owe, owe them some money cos he'll owe them tax from all the doles . he can't tell them how much it is? Because er, I don't know whether Oh well that signature for it every time and it goes on his file every one has a file . Well I hope so , because he's been when he went Huh. He didn't get very much . So I, I don't think it's finished yet somehow, he don't seemed worried about it It seems that they chase somebody like John who, at the outside may end up after five years owing them perhaps a hundred to two hundred pounds Mm. and yet people like the Maxwell board Yeah, yeah. millions involved and other people who are running dodgy companies Yeah. going bankrupt and then starting up another company in another name Mm, mm which I don't think should be allowed, go right themselves off and leave lots of people that they owe money to and can't get it, they get threatened That's right and then they go and start again in the or something, it's some of them are all over again, start them off of course. that everybody without jobs . Oh the people that took over the . Mm. Ever such a charming family,green grocers nice enough people they have next door Mm. he said and I got on very well with them, have a chat and I used to help them when they came in they were West Indians which gave everybody a bit of a shock when running a local Spa Yes. , but erm,and I notice that quite often the shelves would be half empty,came here, I would stop on the way back from the school the bank and the butcher's and the paper shop over the road I could come in quarter to nine and I'm, you know, I, I was done and I said to my Arnold they're not going to sell much unless they put some money into filling the shelves surely Spa will back them, and he said I keep on telling them that I keep on saying to them if you don't put the goods there on display people are going to go over the road to Lipton's and and Mm, mm. eventually they went bankrupt, Florrie is an of mine, she used to work there part time and she always enjoyed it, she's been there say twenty years , she just came back from holiday and found the place is closed down and none of for the past er fifteen months he'd been there, that past fifteen months none of their part time staff had their stamps put on their cards, so for their, for their pension yeah , they've, they've got to put their National, National Ins Insurance stamps, erm, none of the Tax that they'd stopped from their wages had been paid to the tax man, so apparently there was I don't see how they've already paid their employer , they , it was P A Y E,not . . Yeah,but people can do it even in a little way Yeah. little local people, part time housewifes earn a bit extra to pay their mortgage or save up to go on holiday Yes. . . Yeah. . Not very fair is it? No it's not How that coffee machines any, any old machine well it's a small office, maybe a bigger offices have the vending machine, but every office will have a machine. I've usually been, been senior secretary, I've usually been the one in charge of the petty cash, which, sent out for proper coffee and the new kettle if the kettle blew it's fused and the and the tea pot and the tea bags and the, I just used to write a note in the, in the cash book Mm. and cash back in the box of the petty cash Yes. if I needed any I, I used to ask my boss or phone up head office and say petty cash is getting a bit low I've used a lot of stamps last week, they'd send me up a cheque and , never any question of they've provided us with tea and the pint of milk I use, I, I'd bring it in with me or ask the I suppose that they Yes, yes, ten minutes office time spent in the loo, mm Yeah might be strong . You see the leaves in our garden, imagine can't you with all those trees up the top, I give up on it. Ah. I saw a gadget the other day that's two, two plastic circles with handles on, mm, I think I paid about seven pounds and this was to gather up leaves and big lot of Mm, mm. look at it, it's isn't it? Mm. What I'll do pay out extra for two bits of plastic. that was a good idea if you can borrow next door's dustbin your own you'd narf get a lot of leaves up You would. you'd carry them quite safely round the corner or whatever you want, but I . Most of my leaves drop down and fall in the borders soil Yes, yes. Every time I think about it I'm either too busy or the weather's too rotten, when I'm not tired the weather's pouring with rain or bitterly cold or . Did I tell you where we planted the You did, did you? We did, yes,the two Rhododendron behind the and put them on the outside and then put the two bushes over there, the Mallow and the other one. oh great, great feel happier now. The, the last one that I bought was going to be easy, but oh . So you should have space for something sweet smelling outside those big patio doors That's right, I want some Lavender and Azalea and stuff like that, now , yes that sort of stuff. . Mm. evening, I used to go up there and er I always think of nicotine Yes , yes . They're not much to look at. put there . That might be , that one is one of the ones we moved in .. Mine's not very . One I had at Maidenhead was gorgeous. Gorgeous, the one I had . This one doesn't. It's a it used to be a,. In fact it was you I think who stopped me from pulling it up, I bought it as a, a stick from Bromley,in Bromley Mm. and I stuck it behind Anna. where the wall of An er Anna's garage. Oh I know, yeah. . . Anna was . And I stuck it in there and I, I figured it had been there now for what eighteen months and I think it was you who said oh give it another six months Yeah. give it another growing and I just thought stupid plant, and I've left it and it's grown into a beautiful,, didn't call it which now is supposed to before the other way round. . Yeah like my are no longer there There . Yes. Don't know why they keep changing their minds about it, honestly,people start . Yes change it to inches now . Even in kilos. Yeah. Even though I've been shopping through France Mm. Germany I still don't like dealing in kilos. Well you'll be over there. give you a hand. No, no, I'm not going to do any thing . Right, can I have a look at your paper then? Yes, darling,, Yeah , It's all upstairs on the Well there's always, there's always the next bit of garden, it isn't there when we, when we put the rubbish out, then Paddy says is that everything and I say well you know it's not, you know that it's going to blow up again as soon as you've come inside, but don't worry. I when you use Mm, that's right, yes, mm. . . Well yes, that's, that's . . Oh perhaps just as well. I do it with . Having a birthday in January . Yes, yeah. I said well how about a I said would you like candles on,. Oh, that would be nice er, and Have that Oh does it, I must say that'll be nice as long as, as long as you'll let us take . Probably expensive. Well not to worry if you go, go to the theatre I don't want eh I like . over the road Mm. as we, they keep it no nasty erm the costumes all fresh and clean Yes, yes . They used to have those girls that, the girls,she became erm well she was an , she, she was in erm Rushford, you . Was she? She's er, mm, the wife, you know, er what was her name Veronica? Veronica. she was her cos we always remembered her . . Yes I liked her. She was in the window. She used to be in the window and her sister, and I can't remember her sister's name, there was two of them, they, they used to do . Yeah I remember someone I thought it was just another T V. Well she had been on one or two things, not a lot on the television but er, we . That girls with a beautiful voice. Mm Oh probably can, yes. Oh that's the time going you know the and she might expect to stay for us, but best thing is to get the figures and we'll erm, we'll do the , give her the money, but erm I'm sure that he will love that, so would I. . I don't mind, whatever. box . , well I mean, I did do what you want, Penny and I would come along but I think you'd see better in, in a box. . what's going on here. Maybe, maybe you'll, you'll . Last time we went the, the came on and declared that it was your birthday and wished you a very happy birthday and you were standing up there, bouncing up and down. ,on stage sang happy birthday to you. And that . Going like that , ah she wouldn't do that now, would she? You're lucky. I think there was somebody called who came down the isle and gave a couple of balloons. Oh how nice, yeah, yes. I only mentioned it when I was walking the dogs . Oh yeah, yeah.. did she? Yeah. My little daughter was twenty seven Sunday. Yeah. Yeah who does all the in . Oh does she, I, I mean I can have a word with little kids always. Yeah, but it's tea leaves. Yeah tea leaves, tea bags, well they're suppose there've got . Oh, they must do I suppose, they . . Really, well I, I think I might pop down on the roses next year. I would . Warm, when it's warm enough to go out. I'd liked to find Mary something nice and pretty for Christmas, I don't know what to get. Can't you get . Well she did last year, she told us, but this year, well Paddy, Paddy bought her a book of quotations, which she, she quite liked it, but it's not a very attractive book, and we bought her a video of The Little Mermaid which we know she wants Oh yes, that's, that's a good idea. Yes, yes, erm, but I would of liked to have bought her something pretty, I can't think of what to get her. D'you want to drink ordinary tea or what? Yes that would be fine Or what Pete calls my funny tea. No, ordinary tea would be nice, thank you. , I have a cup of your lemon tea. . Any Dinda's taken the camera. Oh has she?. Yeah. That's nice, well you're not all that nice, I mean it does you good, I, if I get an upset tummy I always have some. Do you? Slimming. Yeah. I'm ever so sorry when the erm, master mind finished Oh . It makes me look how ignorant I am. . . You should, I do you ever watch the snooker? Sometimes if it's on Joan, I don't watch snooker, but if it's on I get fascinated by Oh, yeah, oh who won the finals between John Parrott and Andy White, Jimmy White, the other night? I think I saw it on the news thirty five thousand pounds somebody . Yeah , yeah there probably was quite , only cos we don't get a newspaper, huh, and I didn't hear it on the radio the next morning cos we watched bits of it you see, then, it's, it's always on late at night. . Oh . And they were congratulating one of them, what was the two names? John Parrot , he was winning, he was winning earlier on in the evening, twelve frames too nine or something like that. I wouldn't like to commit myself . No, no, no. I just wondered, it, it what I was looking for, it he is the world championship or something like that. How many do . Yes, that was last week probably. Oh I've thrown the papers away. Yeah, oh don't worry, no, I was just start wondering because I, I watch If there's any magazines there that you want Joan do take them whatever. , by the time I get my Best is so late on in the, in the sort of time, see I won't get that one until Sunday. , that came out today . keep one, yes . See by the time I get to that stage it's too late to do any thing to send off Well, you've only got by the time I get it done You've only got to solve the silly simple thing that they give you which is Oh on that big crossword? Yeah I mean you can guess it from the clue without having to fill in the crossword . Oh I never get round to looking at it even. Yes. Well I'll leave this one on. . Yeah, that's three bulbs on that one. . Yes, isn't it exciting isn't it lovely . Oh you think you've never been out before in your life, you'd think this was the very first time wouldn't you? . I'm sorry Joan I'll have to get through. Yes, and shut the door, you got the key? Yeap Parker, hey there's a good boy, sorry open the exciting few days when our witness, two fellows who broke in at Oh yeah, yes. . I was interviewed by the police, I had to give descriptions Oh dear , oh yeah real exciting down there it was piece of wood tuck in, but since erm they were round the corner by . About eight years Mind you suddenly I've had to go back to running on . Oh have you? Oh the plants were in such a mess on the oh it was a filthy mess Oh I see. had me doubts. Oh, oh, it's not, it's not as if you can do, go long, long ways does it, do a, fill up you, fill up very often do you? Only about once a week, five pounds. Oh really. Five pounds just to Just five pounds . fill me from going quarts to full. That fills from quarter to half. There's a nice erm friend who walks her dogs, Henry and Lucy , they put their big golden retriever's and they put their heads between your legs and go bump . the time Keith came with, I had to warn him, they were, ah, look at this one. It does say slow every where. Mm, I won't, I won't say any thing to you. , going to pull out now, pull to the middle, put me choke in All I did say is that can't see us out here . Oh yes, I'm always, I'm always. . I'm always glad to erm, have somebody use another pair of eyes for me, but not to tell me when to change up or down , Change gear, no , put my choke in and I'm not particularly driving on my own, normally Paddy does , but erm, Well last time we , last time he came with us, I said there's one thing I just want to ask you a favour ,that's enough , she's as happy as harry now she's faced up to the fact, that er, he was not good because he didn't love her any way, she loved him. Did she. She's the Librarian at Broadmoor, last week she went off with three thousand pounds up to er Yeah. with three thousand pounds to spend on new books for Broadmoor library. Oh lovely. I said you , she said yes, I'm afraid so and I said I do sometimes begrudge it to those men in there. Mm, yeah, they don't seem to appreciate it some of them do they in there, terrible thing. Life of Riley workshops. Yeah. Makes me laugh, how did he get hold of a saw through the wall or the bars, they've got beautiful workshops, everything they could wish for. . Oh that's big, that is big, there you go is it? No. Went in . It's worth it cos you feel so much better when you've been. Yeah. it's a real dingy day and I think oh dear, wear their boots and Kagouls, and you feel so much better when you get taken the snow of them, the leaves are nice cos they dry them, scuffle in them. Yeah. Just walking in the woods.. . Yes, can't remember her doing it . . Oh does Paddy help you move the plants? Oh yes, yeah, I couldn't of done . , Parker Park,come on, come on. I was talking to Alison saying that sometimes I think we spend too much money keeping all these erm criminally in sane Yeah. I said to her, it's all very well, but, we spend so much money on them and we don't seem to spend any money on victims. No,. And she said, sometimes I can agree with you she said, but some of them when they come into a library, you feel helped Yeah. and others really victim , I said but isn't it, isn't it kinder in a way, I wouldn't, if they really are sick in their minds then but for the grace of god wouldn't it be kinder to stick a needle in their bottoms when they were asleep so they didn't wake up again Yeah. and she said well we've got, for instance, one of my favourite patience is the girl of er, I think she's nineteen, and er, she's in their because her father had raped her since she was about eight, when she was sixteen she killed him, well I said well I think she should have been given a medal. Yeah,. Hello, hello, hello . I've forgotten your name, Judy oh sitting down in the meadow I think, oh aren't you having fun, come on Rocket, oh Rock, Rock, Rock, you, Rocket,I hide, he get's every so anxious if I hide. . , didn't bring your lead did I, It was on the back seat , well this girl apparently, erm, would of got away of killing her father Yeah. because he had abused her all those years, erm, but apparently she's also got a , not the right sort of word, a pathological hate for men in general Oh, oh, yeah. and was inclined, any man who accidently put a hand on her Mm. likely to of had a have a knife in her pocket and turned round and stabbed him. Yeah, well you can't blame her can you? No, I can't blame her But I suppose you have to But it seems to me she shouldn't be locked up in Broadmoor, she should be somewhere where it's more supervision, but more freedom where she can walk around gardens and places like that, erm , well she should after a while . Yes, if they put you in a grow older. close order with nuns or . . understand especially is one of them was a beat her up while he was, while she's asleep, didn't actually do it, while he was actually abusing her, so . , I mean a woman that frightened we all be seething inside and of course seeing him asleep in a drunken stupor to think now's my chance, she must of been in a terrible state emotionally Yes . and thought now's my chance if I . She couldn't of done anything to him while he was abusing her No because he did it. Exactly . . Oh I can, I can understand what must be going through her mind, it must still of been a terrible time . Yeah, yeah . You don't want to walk all the way round do you love? I don't care . . look at all the berries . beautiful hollies. . Oh yes. Are you doing . Cor and er, we all have to never mind any thing else there's always Yes, yes . This is Christmas sort of run up to Christmas with had to do all the presents, buying, and wrapping . all this buying, all this work . . all the food ordering. Yeah well I'm quite happy, cos I can't do anything else towards it . Isn't it lovely? Absolutely beautiful. . If it get's much colder I shall have . Yes. . . . I find these erm, anoraks are more comfortable Yes,. . I finding, I'm wearing all wool, erm and fur lining, next to my sweat my sweater's up round my chest when I get home. . Got . Didn't have mine out here last year, I didn't wear my sheepskin at all No, I didn't, I , I think I wore it one day we walked to er,house, we walked round the shops . I gave one of them away to the . Oh yes Oh it was funny with Alison when I first saw her on when she was still a terrible state she let it all out in a great scream and I just let her talk and talk and talk Yes about it and I didn't see her for weekend she gave me her phone number, Saturday morning I gave her a bell, said I would be walking the dog if you want to join me yeah and er, she said oh yes please and I said fifteen minutes you know, she said, since I've seen the Solicitor I feel a different person, I said you look different, you look ten years younger, she said everybody's telling me I look ten years younger. , oh terrible it's excitement on marriage isn't it? Yes, yes, cos the first couple of weeks I mean she didn't sleep . No. She said after she'd seen the Solicitor and er had a good talk to me Is, is she in the house? Oh yes, she's got the house, and had a good talk to me, and help . and er, she said er, she's got things sort of straightened out and she had a good nights sleep with her dog, both dogs, one on the bed and one by the side of her. . Yes. Said I've a well paid job which I enjoy . I said yes, your best without him aren't you, which I couldn't say to her before of course. No, no. And she said yes, I am. And money wise she's alright, then. Civil Servant. . Civil Service pay. . No, no, plus she's not only, she's not only the librarian at Broadmoor, she keeps all the medical records as well. Oh,. . . Oh the do goodies. Yeah. , erm most of the staff at Broadmoor haven't got much time for do gooders. No. Erm, last time the do gooders insisted, one of them was left out, he went straight to the South Coast, killed his mum and his Yeah, yeah . girl friend. Well they do seemed to get taken in . Well they're so clever you see, these Broadmoor criminals they're not just No they're crafty aren't they Just eh devious. yeah, oh and they're brilliant some of them. Mm, well it's like Yes. he did a video didn't he? He did a film on the television asking whoever had got her to That's right, bring her back again. yes. Oh yes, they're very, very clever so Doug was saying to me one day in work, walking dogs together in Wellington, he said I had this fellow yesterday, he just convinced a board that he didn't need any more treatment, he was cured erm, he wouldn't do any more No assaults on, on small girls, etc, erm, they said why, you can have less, yeah er, you can have more er freedom yeah round the place and then we'll see how it goes from there, with a view to letting you out, back into the world and er as soon as they'd gone and they were escorting him back to his, his room, they don't have cells they have erm, he turned to the warden who are called nurses, and said never wanted to have an operation, I like having sex with little girls, he said Oh no now I've got two little girls he said I hate to turn away knowing what he'd done to the last little girl . . Oh, but there was a thing on the on the radio the other day talking about little boys, and they let him out he was now got a karate class for young boys in the South of England somewhere. Good grief. If I, if my children were there, I'd take them out of there like a shot . Yes, so would I. They even gave his name,. , what did we do the other morning, Sunday I think it was, there was two thrushes here singing their hearts out Oh lovely. and they were singing the territory, hello darling, they were singing their territorial songs Oh really . like it was spring. Well it must of been we haven't had any nice weather for ages They did it last spring when it was warm, when it got warm too early Yeah, I . Then they all lost their of eggs, do you remember? Yes, I mean, I think as far as I remember last spring was a good one wasn't it? Rocket this way, yes it was beautiful earlier on. That's right, it was better in the spring then it was That's right in, in the summer. and all the birds mated, then we had that cold spell and all the fledglings Yes, yes, yes I remember now. got blown out of their nests. Come on Rocket, Rocket come come, good boy, . good boy, he knows the difference between come and come, don't you, you know come, come clever boy. Oh . Clever boy, you are good boy. Because of him being a rescued dog I can't ever give him a slap No, oh no. for not being obedient No, that's not. just praise him a lot when he get's it right. That's right, yeah do goes out seems to me if it's not windy, it's I don't mind how cold it is, it's the wind I The wind, yeah. Paddy always reminds me how he had an offer of a job new I wouldn't go . so he . That's what Keith's talking about, when he sails his aeroplane he onto a boat I'm not . I said I don't want and Keith says , I , I get so angry I, I stand up and give the boat such a wack Yeah. and probably upset the boat. , yes,I like one foot on the ground . . . Come on, up, up, I don't know if you had a visit or not, up darling, good lad, mind your tail oh thank you, I got the wrong bag, I think there's a policeman's helmet under the seat . I think at first glance you can't really see . No, no, no, if you weren't sort of looking. To make them think twice. Well that's right Maybe take another car rather than this one . You have a quick look you, you, you think that could be a child's one and you think well . Yes, yes it is very , Yew tree. Oh is it? It's a Yew tree isn't it? Yes, isn't it? Beautiful, you don't see Yew's out in the open much do you? Not that big, no not like that. There's another one actually in the cos Dinda said to me Sounds as if they might have . Oh yes, I think they . . Sort of. Yeah. Which is what we had at home in the manor ground, our squire was er Yeah,. selection of them went all over the world collecting trees. Funny, they did in those days didn't they? Oh yes from seventeen something to eighteen early nineteenth century . . Apparently they use to keep a little thing alive and they took it on the boat coming home Yes. Oh it's nice to have you there for a walk Oh I it was lovely. Did you good as well. Wasn't it too long for you, to catch cold, if you walk . No, no, not really ,cold, but I do hate it when the winds blowing at me. Yes, yeah, we having some icy winds about a month ago, when we had the frost in the morning. When, when the cold wind blows , yeah, that's right . It was cold , Wouldn't set foot outside. Cold over the meadow then. Do you know how, if you've got a lot of toadstools and fungus in your in your garden, you have to dig down don't you, it said about six inches down . ,. That little pouch in the front where I have flowers in, in the summer, absolutely covered in toadstools, it's all the way round there it's all covered in toadstools. What, what I do? They're probably edible. Oh dear, the thing is, as, as far as I can remember I can't find it in any of the two books that I've got out at the moment, it's not under , but I vaguely remember that you have to dig down a certain . It's not very deep thought is it? No, it's like, Watching the television or something like that. yeah and you should turn the top few inches over and there was what he called the Yeah. thing is if you don't get them out, then they'll grow up again. Unfortunately I haven't got any spare earth to put it . I've got an idea I read that salt of course kitchen salt does it, which I imagine would kill most any thing. Well yes. . Yes, and it might kill the flowers off, but . It was just that erm, if you do it gently, layer by layer Yes you'll probably come across those little yes interlaced mats yeah which I think are the spores aren't they? Yes, I think I've got to go out and dig, I, I really have, but but when you're watch your back and . With it, with it not, with it being opened planned. Yes. I do like, I don't really like them. No, I can't say I . That's the only thing about that house that I don't really like, that's, the You haven't got as much at the front as I have. No. I meant to put a lot more bulbs in over the I've still got time actually. Well we dug the lot up they're all growing like mad and I, I've got an idea that once you've moved them they don't, they don't re-settle very well. Oh I thought you can move bulbs any time when they were dormant. Well they're not, all there, all their roots are growing Yeah. and all their, all their Yeah, I suppose. I, I esterase, all their erm Press your tip madam. . Well, ooh, there you are, got my, got my thumb stuck. . Times I do that . Yes please love. . Erm, yes sometimes I don't have a pack of frozen peas, I so, otherwise well I . She's sleeping now isn't she? I don't want . do something about her sore . Yeah, yeah, awful and he won't . Do you want some of these, or have you got some? . . No, I haven't Have a name with you? No, no . Rocket. Rocky, oop Rocky, come on, call him with your calling voice, he's disappeared. . My calling voice Rocket come, good lad, that's better, that's better. I with the voice. I hoped that the black bird with the white Oh yeah patches er, come while you were here won't see him, have you got . No, no, Dinda used it cos she's got a camera with so many gadgets on . Oh that's right, she did yeah, yeah . Yeah actually I put erm any apples I've got left over, oh they love them their . There's a cock bird, but he's much bigger than that. Mm, mm. It see's that those two together, they're, they're Oh, yes. That's the baby there look. Oh it is isn't it? Yes. You can tell by it's head. . I mean . It's still got brown in . No, it's not brown enough for a hen. No it's not is it? No, they're a lot browner It's odd . than that, unless it's a little baby juvenile, oh whatever it is it's shaking it's head, looks like a . Perhaps he's gay, yeah perhaps he's gay. Gay black bird. doesn't, doesn't look male or female. No, it did, it's a funny looking thing, funny shape round it's head. Yeah, first the hydrangeas if you want some. Erm,as you erm, you don't want, are you sure you don't want to leave them there, I mean they're nice to look at out actually. Good heavens, taking two or three is not gonna, not gonna hurt is it? Well , just wrap me up a couple then and I'll put . Well you, well you as long as you want I'll have to get a pair of these. They're ruined cutting up the dogs chews you, it's you, you've ruined them. . There's a beaut over there that's dropping it's head with it's weight, can you see it over, in my other bed. . I like them I think the're so, they're so attractive. Mm, this one is just Ah, just bending isn't it? just , yeah I told you turned out to be . Yeah. And er Yeah. I mean they made a nice shell, but I like these . Yes. maybe I'll pick one. There's a great big cabbage one at the bottom and there's a beauty there, with more mauve on . Well I don't want to . Well it, when the snow get's on that it's gonna break it. Oh, I, I just . Yes, it's only one's, two heads, but it's better that's a beaut I mean that Are you sure now? What about you? that all by itself . It's fantastic. Yeah, and this is the one that Keith cut right down is it? No I cut it right down Oh you cut it down . On he's, he's instructions, on, don't like that dam great bush being so near, he never has to stand at the kitchen sink and look out like I do this is where my, it's funny whether the winds blowing this way or that way, Mm, they all my door , both my doors get covered in leaves. . How is that? South wind or North wind, I get my It must be a, a aquiline. . Aquiline. Aquiline, I've never heard of it . It isn't in my book , it isn't in my dictionary, that has . and you know, small green flowers, would you believe. Oh,. Night scented stock, that's coming nearly out, isn't it ridiculous. Oh and it's smelling . Yeap, it's night scented stock. Yeah, yeah . I've got a fuchsia that's still growing. Strawberries, actually Yeah. There's actual strawberries there Actual strawberries they're not ripening of course, but they're strawberries, birds are enjoying them, look, look at the size of them, ridiculous isn't it?. you should . Yes, yes, special isn't it? . . Yeah. I thought might be a bit more sheltered Yeah. and that is the That look's like a . from Chester. Ooh. And now when I look round the garden I can say that's Diane and Yeah, yeah. that's Joan Super isn't it? yes it's lovely having cutting's from friends. Yeah. I always think the that's Joan's Yeah. you see whenever I . . Well there's enough of them look . Oh There, there, there. Oh if I can pinched one of those is you've got too many, I'll just have one. I have, they, they, they multiply just look, look how they've multiplied, they, they . Oh yeah, well if . Take a another one just started. Now I think that one over there is . Another one started there, look. My fuchsia now that was, that was erm, blooming until about a week ago Oh. having a new on it. Yes touch wood, for flowers it hasn't been too bad a year, so far, we haven't had very . No. This is the only bit of garden I bother with, and nature can have the rest. Well, dear that's why, you have the Rhododendron's . And you think amazing what we use to do. Yeah, heavy hammer. Yeah, to put the in the front of the steps. Mad. went out. Yes. and bought the York stone cupboard all the way back in the wheel barrow and put it in, made, pack it all up and made to look . Maidenhead there, me bring the box up garden. The old bicycle's and the old bed steeds Yeah all went underneath yeah , And in between you decorated and Yes looked after the kids yes and you went to school and you oh dear, well I'm glad we've had our share, I mean the kids do it nowadays but we have had our share of it haven't we? . Have you er It's been ruined with the, going through this . . Yes, I think I might get a new pair of secateurs. Well it's much more useful for me that is than something . Got so much more . I thought mine hadn't come out, then when I went out there a little while ago it had come out, but so late in the year moved it, it was all in big clump under the oh I've got great big clump under the tree and not one of them, either of them had a, a bloom on, so I said useless , Trees , useless. mm, mm. The bushes, you know, so I, I moved a little bit of it, it's got . . I don't like throwing plants away. I don't like throwing plants away either, but you've got to do it haven't you? Oh yes. . I do with them on occasion. . Yes, isn't, those are for my mother's day bouquets and I just stick them in and they just come out in the vase . I know you've got green fingers , you've . Well when it comes out of it . Yes. Sunny window. What I do with my roses when I go out is I get a lot of please from looking, looking I would of had them in the front . at them in the kitchen over the sink , Oh yes I put them there so I yes . can see them and they're much, they look a happier than they do out in the cold. Rocket, leave, leave, eaten birds bread, look he's got dogs biscuit, but he's eaten the birds, stop it, Rocket, leave, go on in, in. I'll go and do want anything? Nothing else really to take. No, thanks Ginny you did your bit for . Oh yes. . He has to have a crunchy chew when he comes in from his walk. . He's thoroughly spoiled,far more than any of my pedigree's, this little rescue animal. . . He doesn't take, it's strange, although it's made originally with gin soaking the slows you can't taste any thing of the gin, slows kill it completely, cos I loathe the smell of gin, I can't stand it. No, neither can I. Doesn't smell or taste of gin at all. . It's very, very good for tummy upset. Exceptionally good for period pains I suppose perhaps the er . My Keith tried a little drop last night and he said I mustn't drink this so soon after then he had another sip mustn't drink it and he Had another one . I only gave him that much, I only gave him a tiny drop to take, I said it's medicinal really like my Brandy Port. Yeah,. It was Gin, then they had the brown sugar syrup added Mm. Erm then the yeast, that worked on the sugar Mm, mm, alcoholic. ninety nine and a half per cent. , erm I'd imagine it's fairly potent. Yes, well I'm telling you it is,. Yeah,not to . , yeah. Well you'll only get two glasses out of that . Oh yes, but that's, that's not this week , he's having his alcohol free week. Ah yes,. Oh Iris I've only got one hand . Are you sure you've got everything? Yes that's fine, I So he'll be a whole day without Without . Oh he's gonna feel awful. Yeah,. He'll hide himself away. No, he doesn't care I . He would if I came over, he'd hate it. Oh yeah, oh, I mean, that would be different, you won't be invited. No. , I'll got out too. Bye, bye dear, thanks for the lunch. Take care. take care love, and if I don't see you, when I, I'll speak to you before any way. Before Christmas, oh I should hope so. Oh yes, but,. I will. I'll ring up. I don't know even what the panto is, but it's bound to be a good one if it's Dinda, yeah. . Lovely evening out isn't it? Yeah. Perhaps we could have dinner out first depending on what time it starts. . Oh it's my treat to hear, it's her birthday,, bye darling. No dear. I'll with that is it on? No. Came up with a an idea about Maxwell today,I cos I said Maxwell Oh did you? either committed suicide he took a throw himself off beside the boat hoping he'd never be found or he erm was murdered cos you know, people don't like him oh Reg came up with a good one, he said we possibly he wanted to disappear you see Yeah. and it went wrong Ooh no! and I said I could imagine, you know, the boys are there with the boat, they've got it ready and he steps off the other one and they say oh I'm sorry missed your footing did you? Or Oh it's rotten or they just didn't bother to fish him out. No we they wouldn't bother to fish him. I mean wouldn't stop would it No he was a he was a rotten sly man there was no question about it. I even Oh I love you bits and pieces you good boy! You think of the people, I mean, these people have been there for all those years Yes. trying to get a pension and they're Yes. not gonna get a thing. It's rotten it that is rotten. no man can pay for that. No. I mean if he was hung, drawn and quartered he still couldn't pay for it the suffering he's gonna cause. But why did he need seven hundred millions pounds? What can anyone do with seven hundred million? Cos he's a Shyster! Yes, but surely a couple of million's enough for anybody. He's a Shyster! Seven hundred million. Greed at the moment is beyond belief. Where is it Dad? Where di where did he go? Did he get it? Has he eaten it. No he hasn't he's just playing with it. Where is it? Over that side. You want me to throw the bloody thing, do you? Yeah well she doesn't like the way I throw it. had a cut haven't you? Yeah. If he get's it cut it'll be alright. He's had the end off it already. So I'm alright, you alright? Yes fine. I'm Yeah Just Alright I will. Good I've bought the panto Ben and Harry would love to come, Harry adores panto. Actually how much was the ? How much was it? Thirteen pounds fifty a seat. Oh what is it? It's Puss in Boots. I've never seen Puss in Boots. No they haven't had it in Windsor they did it I wanna go. Could you put you're head back a bit, move! Yeah they have it for receptionists who remember. Are you going to go for me? Rather funny You're gonna go for me are you you you gotta get out you get it Drop it! you're ready yep, alright right we all right I've got it! Where did it go? Right the way through? Poor little devil! It's probably in the garden. Really? I shouldn't Well it's not I don't want any ! those mushrooms. Well you're gonna have it! But Ben and Harry would love to join us, Harry adores pantomimes and he's be I pantomimes it finishes on the eighteen so I'll have to book it for the previous Friday so Harry says oh that's great it'll be my birthday too. Oh but they'll be paying for their own seats though, so it's Make an outing of it. so it's yes an outing Malcolm's only Where are they going? A ra a lot going are they? a pan a panto yes the Windsor panto going Not if you don't want to you don't want to go if you don't particularly How much to go? like that I'll pay for it. Oh! No no it's a it's your birthday. It's your birthday, I'll pay for it. It's birthday. Your birthday. I'll pay for it just No I'll pay for it. Is it very expensive? Oh it's very cheap. It's thirteen fifty a seat, though. How much? Thirteen pounds fifty. Oh I might go to that fourteen quid, yeah it is cheap, than going up down the road. We're not eating It's good out as well are we? Well it starts at seven thirty, it'll be a bit difficult to eat out in there. We will have to get i Get there for seven fifteen, up there get in and an an an fish and chips. get there. Alright. So we're meeting behind the Well we haven't discussed that yet. So that's Friday the eight Seventeenth. Seventeenth. The weekend before your birthday. It finishes on the Saturday see ding ding ding Yes. Ooh ooh! And apparently Keiley adores pantomime I think he wants he shouts out with all the kids I think You know Paddy and I sit together well It's behind you! It's over there! Well I'm not letting you I'm not letting you two in. Well It's behind you No I I shall enjoy that! He's got it. Look I was thinking the other day And they're so lovely at Windsor and fresh in case anyone pops over from over the road They might actually I said to her my daughter was once was wished Happy Birthday Mm. and that was twenty fifth January up on the stage and Mm. then you er everyone sang Happy Birthday and somebody arrived down the aisle with a couple of balloons for her should have done that for me too, on my Mhm birthday, the wished me a Happy Birthday should have said Should have done she said I wasn't four years old and she was still working in the box office . Well don't you dare do it to me in the panto, I will of die of embarrassment! Got it! Got it! Oh you never you never want I'll never talk to you again if you Oh course I wouldn't do it, it won't be your birthday anyway . Here it is. Love it! clever bloody, bloody good this was bloody good that was ! Where is He where's it gone? That was a hell of a difficult one to find. What was it that Look see I was gonna say to you? I think he does it . Yeah he he likes the chill as well. No he he just left it that was the one I took out and cut he got it mm mm mm mm lovely boy isn't it funny that I see Good Morning could you tell me where Prima are? Prima? Prima. This is Prima. Is it you? Yes. It's usually on the doors. Erm it's a is it or No it's returning a a gizmo I'll go t yesterday Right erm and since I live in Yeah instead of sending it through the post at Christmas I thought I'd bring it. Right okay I'm not quite sure who you've gotta see, but erm if we go back round that way it's only so you It's ever so cold out there. I know. No I just couldn't see the name Prima actually just Alright, alright, who's going. 'till I saw the van. Right. It really is cold it keeps trying to freeze again doesn't it? I know That's right just walk the dog and don't you round here this is the Can't see anything that says Prima Er that's it only a very small one though Oh it does too!be well being a bit low down, you see, you can't see the cars. I have the same trouble. Thank you very much. Let me just ask Gill see if she knows about it. Hello I spo Is it an ? That's right yes I spoke to someone yesterday on the phone and they said to pop it in, since I lived so close. Right. Seemed silly to send it by post I Thank you ever so much for bringing me round, it's very nice of you. Okay. Is it for a refund or Yes please just the Right oops! It's not at all what I thought it would be I just made a bloomer there. It'll take about two weeks for the refund to go through, we can't actually give it you I was my Barclaycard No. but I've bought I put everything in here Have you got the erm there's that and then someone I dropped my order form in the din that belongs to the You haven't got the acknowledgement form with you? Yes I put that in as well there Ah , that's the one I after. and that was my Barclaycard number in case you want it although I ordered it through the thr phone I made out that so that I could read it off on the telephone I didn't even erm I didn't even assemble it I just looked and I saw it doesn't chop I thought it would chop things but doesn't, it only grates Looks as though it had been out before, you know, you look at this! Oh it's one of those. Somebody's had it before haven't they? Look at that! It looks like it see cos they're not actually sent out from here they're No I erm I realise that. they come from the Must have a big warehouse somewhere but everything's there that er now that's been torn as well, you see. Mm. It's Excuse me! Where are you going tonight, Chris? Oh erm I'm going to . We've got some friends over from Canada Gosh it's cold out there, this morning. It is cold. It keeps trying to start freezing again, you know. I know that frost this morning! Honestly I like no drink Yes. tonight. Now lunchtimes. I was gonna say, every time I pick him up it sounds as though The sun goes in and suddenly you feel the frost rising! I know. It's not like that. Not a thing as long as you're being as long as you're being paid for it, it is actually. Yes She can afford be like that. That's right. No in the town, I'm coming shopping with her Barry! There . Mm. Yeah. Have you got the time, Suzanne? Shall I let you start coming to or Is it winter? He won't pushed into it oh that's alright. Are you getting the camisoles out, Tracey? I am. What a dumb question? You seem a happy lot around here. Some fa I know your face Do you think so? From Sandhurst? Little Sandhurst Probably Little probably little Sandhurst near near near near near . Oh your face is familiar perhaps it's shopping or something? Probably. Or even in a shop somewhere. Around Tesco's at New Cross. Yeah, could be. Would you just like to just Probably. sign there please? And then I can give you this . I Can't figure out why I didn't turn back at the the ? No he Great! Not really keen on the small one. That wasn't it passed her on we went. It was, yeah. I went for a walk the dog in Ambarro this morning it was a joke! It was cold. Right I'll let you have that part cos they write they won't want these that is that is original receipt so I'll give her It is. that one Thanks. and I'll give you that as a receipt Yeah. and erm it'll be sent down to our returns department. Yes. Which is now in Camberley. And they'll either credit my Barclaycard or And they'll credit your Barclaycard. Great. It usually takes about a fortnight here So we with Christmas coming, you must be it might be yes getting very busy anyway. They are fairly busy down there, but erm anyway, it will all go down there. Very nice of you. Okay? Thank you very much I hope you have a nice Christmas, I bet you're overworked at the moment! Yeah, well we fairly busy on our . I bet you are I bet you are it's a lovely way getting thin it's good isn't it? Mowing round the shops It's much better to go through catalogue, I think. Sometimes it is. Well not in this case but I mean Not in that case. It's very rarely that I have to Yes. say no, it's not what I expected. That's right I mean we erm Yes. video haven't tried the video yet because that's a Christmas present the video That's right. I got an it's a good way of getting I think. That's it. Thank you ever so much my dear me dear I don't know who I spoke to Okay and you just get on the phone, but it was she was very nice. It was most probably young ladies upstairs. Ah could have been, yeah. Okay then. Thank you very much indeed, my Right. bitterly cold out here bitter! Thanks a lot. That wasn't very clever was it? She's just placed apart. You can't believe it can you? She isn't it?space. Yes and there If I If I pull up a bit and back out there. Ooh you! Yes . Oh dear, you poor soul ha, ha do you want me to move and come and help you? Or do you want to go in the No it's alright. vets and say I'll go, I'll see if I ca after you've moved I'll see if I can . If not I'd go in there and say please could Yeah somebody move that car! I will do . It's a Vauxhall isn't it? Dear oh dear! Alright poppet,we we're not going to vet we're not going to the vet we're not going to the vet I know you'd like to but you can't. Good morning Jenny. Morning. Gosh it's so cold out there! I know Oh that's it? Yep. It's most un do you know it's brilliant sunshine and then there's a bag of cl there's a bag of I know and it really Yeah bitter. there's a bag of cloud Yeah. and as soon as the sun goes in it starts t to freeze again! Yeah I know I know You feel it you can feel it coming. I hate it Put your hand out the window and you've got frost I got . It really is it's bitter hello. Oh let's hope it doesn't last too long. Mm. They said it was going to get by the end of the weekend. I know, I know yeah I don't think you're gonna get any snow, luckily. Well I don't know, you look at those cloud bags. Well they do reckon, well yeah, they reckon that but erm We can put up with the frost. Yeah . That's true. Oh don't leave it behind! Oh gosh! Ah you're doing my trick. I'm dreaming. That's my prerogative walking off Is it? and leaving it. Oh yeah . People are always running after me with things. Bye. Bye. Oh where have you moved your light bulbs to Jenny? To make room for the Outside the door Thank you dear. Lost me voice Oh Yeah keep Yeah I don't like you. There's a lot of it about. Through shouting at the children and playing Oh really? ice hockey the other night Yeah. and they were losing and I went to spur them on. Oh I see. You don't fancy coming in the morning, no? You're happy Well I do erm, what time? I don't know yet, I just said to Christy what time will you be in in the morning I don't have time yet, in case if I have I can ask you. Oh another time I if it's very very early I I won't. You won't, yeah. I don't get up very early, you see I know yeah about ten thirty late or eleven o'clock if you change. Oh that's fantastic You change. Yeah. You yeah. I thought that's what as well No perhaps going to bring it back, to you, I know that we did it all but not now. Well when I Well you used to. When you were working she won't do that she must come very early in the morning cos to go from here cos all the old boys were flirting she had to look like. Yes. She was ver very young boys lovely . We all need know whether she is or I know now my peace with her bye . Yes she was working other in the In what? In Oh yes. Yeah,. She was there year after year. Yeah she's nothing to do with army her son joined the army Yeah. air force not here. No. In the north. You weren't in Turkey when they had troubles were you? You weren't in Turkey when they had the Yeah trouble No. over there No cos I left Turkey after I left . Yeah, how's it going out there? I left nineteen er nineteen seventy one trouble starts, nineteen seventy four to seventy Hello Vera I should think it's rather like Northern Ireland, actually. Yeah. That's erm Holy war the . And your er did a marvellous job, didn't he? He did so, but some of them left had he pulled , you know. Oh? Yeah he did it off . Did he? He did it, yeah. At least he got you free of Aggater Yeah, yes Aggater Yeah. He bring the Turkey to survival but coupled with the suggestions then other people they not finished they try and fill in their pockets. Yeah. You know? After all that got them out because after all that Yeah. out of Anatalia Yeah. because that at great speed. Yeah. And they Shandy And then Ida's rung to say that er our buyers have just rung him to say they've a, got the cash, agreed and its all sorted out. So basically your moving in about four weeks time No, we've got to exchange by then, we'll have done it by then, but So that means party time. no it will not mean party time but any way that's not bad You're for ever stuffing your face did you know that? You got erm, you're off next week aren't you? aha Well you'll have to be here for the surveyor alright?, the only thing is last week, Jean said that when the surveyor came last time they took all the carpets up so you might, they might have to do that you'll have to protect the dog cos he might not like seeing his carpet pulled up, mm mm, mm That is disgusting okay Why? Because exchange of contracts So what nineteen thousand paid? mm mm could prove difficult but how can you pay that much off?does if, I suppose if they I think we have, I think it's done as a, as part of a new mortgage I think. what's there to put, took an extra twenty thousand on from the beginning? So are nan and granddad totally for the idea and everything and moving now? Yeah say so. Er we going to have a look round the house one more time? No Richard, not before we exchange contracts and we actually move in I don't think. Why? Well we might do, might too, full contracts signed just to get some measurements. The measurements are already there No, not accurate we don't know the size of the windows and curtains do we? Ah, can you imagine trying to curtain that big room, the dining, the ballroom bit Drawing room Drawing room, whatever it's called, it's huge, it has windows all the way round, it has bow windows innit? No it's window er blind window with a bay window at the side. You have to keep the erm,, what's the name of the stuff? Er floor tiles down, wooden floor tiles. Not floor tiles, they're wooden flooring What do you mean wooden floor? Floor tiles. Not tiles So what are they? They're wood strip flooring Are they expensive? the actual flooring They expensive? Well If you polish those up we can keep them I'm going to so we're not having carpets down? no, rugs, large rugs Well, then, exactly that's not going to cost much is it? Er yeah, yes Cost less than carpets No Nigel looked, looked at er, er rug and it was erm sort of like ten by six and that was three hundred and fifty pounds Yeah, expensive, but you get that from work Not a lot of it it's not a great deal, hassle, but the garden's gonna look good when we've finished it, get in the straight first day in we'll hack down the back tree. Nanna wants to have all the er plants picked out of the greenhouse and erm have them all in the trays and up to us by the end of May before they go away on holiday. Where they going? Erm forgotten now, somewhere rural Spain Oh god you know it's not, not, it's not like Benidorm or anything like that it's it's somewhere like, it's about seven miles away from the sea, but as I said they Seven? Well they don't want to go to the sea, erm Ah they've got, they've got a swimming pool so that's all they need I suppose so and lots of nice walks around, things which How long are they going for? Dunno, about a week, ten days I think Yeah, that's not bad. but they want to go, bring all the trays of plants over A hundred, hundred odd before before they go, so, so the greenhouse is empty so all hundred odd? Oh, they have more than that I think. So in other words they're gonna bring its new place? Mm, well if we move, hopefully we wou would of moved by then. So how we gonna get hundred a hundred odd trays down to us? Have to hire a van? No, nan and granddad can bring one lot up and my mum and dad can fetch a few bits and then just keep bringing bits back, I mean Yes, I suppose so it's not that much of a bother, the pain is having to dig them all in that's the trouble Has he done loads this year? Well at least they haven't done as many as they did, they did last year but they, it looks a lot to me Oh, why haven't they done as many as last year? Probably because they had quite a lot left over and didn't They didn't, we used them all I know but we'll certainly be needing them this year, cos the garden's bare. Yes, we went round up to the manor house God it's expensive there I know, they've got some lovely things aquarium are Oh we didn't bother going in the aquarium Oh erm it's nice there was some really nice things, there was erm, some of those lovely erm variegated erm, what do you call them things? Plants Weeping figs , weeping, weeping figs, we had one at er Hertford Road and it died It died , oh that big thing we had outside? No, the one that was, no not that one, that, that's another nice one, but, no it's er, in the side of the erm Mm the fireplace, you know the, where the planter was I, I know the one yeah that one there and it died, mind you it didn't get enough light that was really why Probably cost a fortune all the plants at Ruxley, Ruxley is not a good place to go Oh there's some smashing things there though Yeah, but look at the prices though Well I know but it cos they, that's the only good garden centre around that's, that's why they cost so much No Pole Hill's nice No, it's not as big there we were gonna go down there, but erm nan and granddad had been down there about a fortnight ago and they said they hadn't got a lot out yet, they said they wouldn't be out for about another three weeks, so about Mm next week, but Ruxley had quite a few seeds out and erm, Nana was gonna buy some and then she said er, she, she'll leave it, she'll go down to Pole Hill first cos they said they'll be out and they're, cos they're slightly cheaper and then if they haven't got any next week then she'll go back up to Ruxley and get them there instead. She only saves a matter of fifteen P and gets it all back on the petrol Well, er, this year instead of sowing their tomato seeds right from, from seeds Well that's stupid she's not going to this year, she's erm, in Ruxley there, there was a little pot of seed that had been sowed and they were ready for pricking out, and er one little pot I think was ninety eight P, but there must of been fifty plants in there easily Yeah, but she had that many last time Well er I was gonna say we don't need, we she had five hundred sort of flowers don't need that many, whereas last year she had so many tomatoes and tomato plants, she didn't know what to do with them We don't even eat the damn stuff thank you, so erm she's going to erm she'll just pick out some of these then, erm watch it, the ones that she doesn't, the plants that she doesn't need she'll give to Dave, his erm school, his spring fair whatever you call it Oh, he always gets extra priorities doesn't he? Little David, her apple Oh yes in her eye No, she's, he's not the apple of her eye, at all. Did she miss me? Caroline apparently asked erm Nana if the boys were coming up Ha but Caroline's half term is not until the week after next Week after next? it's David's the next week and Caroline's the week after Oh cos she's only got about four weeks before, she goes back and erm Well she hasn't she's got different it must be three weeks since she exams time, date, I think we're having it the earliest of the lot, for some stupid reason because Mel doesn't appear to be having them till late either. Why when's hers? Her's is late May, they start You'll find quite a few of yours will be May No the majority of mine will be finished by May the twenty fourth I think, I think you're kidding yourself I'm not, it's only over a two week period, they're jammed in, I'm getting in several days, all I have is three exams I still think you'll find you'll have some in May No, no Well you'll have to wait and see won't you? No, not many at all but, yeah, that's ridiculous Caroline's down then But it means that she, she has a, a week's holiday and I think she's back for about three weeks and then breaks up again at school Mm er Easter, so and then she'll have I think three weeks Easter Mm and then I think she's back for, erm I think she gets back, she misses one Monday this Bank, Bank Holiday, that's, that's four days and then, she does, I think she's got another two, three weeks and I suppose she'll be, well she'll be doing GCSEs anyway Mm so she's hardly going to be there Mm it's a funny way of doing it really Well Mel, Mel's been er holiday is this week, next week coming Mm, got Dave's in next week? erm off today as well, so that's why, but that, that's I suppose is late as well Well erm quite a few of the London children were off Mm, there's a lot of people who've erm, I mean a lot of s all the T V companies are putting programmes on for next week Mm for people, kids being off, so it's obvious the rest of the country's off that week, and so it's probably only a few limited schools Dorset , Dorset always has the early is a pain in the arse, warm in here Mm innit? So er it's stupid well there you go, what's for dinner by the way? I haven't decided yet Mm, cos Morris is coming down isn't he? Oh I know, it'll only be fish fingers and chips or fish steaks and chips Oh not chips again, please not chips again Well I haven't been here to have chips Richard I've had four lots of chips this week and I'm getting fed up with chips You like chips you keep telling me I've had three lots of pizza this week and I'm getting fed up with pizza Well that's up to you Richard, you can't eat, you had chow mein last night, what did you have? I had chow mein last night Well that's right then but I had pizza yesterday, lunch Oh lucky you Not lucky me I can't stand it after a while. You don't have to eat it Richard, could of had er sandwiches. We went fishing by the way I know you come back in the afternoon pathetic , it's gonna freeze up again this afternoon down at Bournemouth, gonna have fish off the pier, go for some bees, but I couldn't be bothered but there was nothing, it was too damn cold, it must of been minus five with the wind chill factor Mm absolutely horrendous, oh by the way you didn't thank me for getting those yoghurts did you? I asked Colin anyway Well he didn't remember, I did Gee whiz thank you Well you wouldn't of got them if it wasn't for me No go and make us a cup of tea would you please? Mm, get one in a minute No, get one now please Yeah alright, alright Don't be silly, and erm he just, he just said er that erm that I've, either he put the phone down from talking to me the agent, our agent rang him, tell us that our buyer has got the cash agreed. I know I don't know whether I told you, I can't remember or not Yes you have Oh, you could of said he's in a foul temper isn't he today? No he just doesn't like being taped Oh its stupid Just talk look What with a mouthful? come on you I don't wish to talk thank you very much Oh you're a doctor you're supposed to talk Richard would you like a chunk of cheese? No thank you Not quite of that, I'll have another one Who's that whistling? Who you giving er told me not she's taping anybody else, tape it as a Walkman, but I don't know how she can, because you're not allowed to what you're basically supposed, goes Longman's, Longman's dictionary But the, the dictionary of the nineties you see, they give one to every age group, but not unless, there's no point in giving one to anybody particularly No because, I mean they're basically they're gonna be talking in a language about our present era aren't they? But erm you get paid twenty five quid for doing it, so Tapes not bad it's worth about that They started , they started in one place and they just there, I mean, ha Well she collared me yesterday, unfortunately, so I've gotta do it until Unfortunately , well just a minute, well Richard I need that money, yeah, it's five pound now Well so do I, I need a lot of money, a lot a lot of money So do I good job granny sent me ten, ten pounds Money is the root of all evil Dad, please. Save it Don't write my name anywhere near his ah hey So you're basically going to erm, you're not going to get rid of me I'm going to swell at yes, I'm not going, I'm only, I'll still be here at the weekend Ha ha no, I'm not leaving, I'm still here for Oh good, oh It's, we're having a tent in the back garden Oh get, you're not are you? No I'll commute every day Every day? as if , er Saturday and Sunday And all holidays? Yeah Oh I don't see why you just sleep out in the garden or something Ah and you can study in there what I'm gonna do What? no, I mean commute, good morning Jane Don't speak then Hi Richard Oh thank you Jane nice to know somebody's going to be polite this morning I said hello Richard, I said hello Richard where's my money? no Jane that's what mum's doing some Oh how sad Can I say really horrible things now? No you're not supposed to because it's still recording, you basically be polite and Oh Richard I love having you round here, when you come in like a light in the dark how I enjoy your painting, your polite conversations, the way that you move it's all so True magnifico Oh thanks a lot Oh you're disappointed now aren't you, that I, coming back, it's really upset you That you're coming back? Yeah Yeah I'm not going, I'm not leaving Why not Richard? no way Can't you? Do you really like living round here? Yes, I have a job here Yes, but you don't get paid do you pay Richard? No Good no I didn't, I stopped paying because if you want to waste your money that's up to you It's really your work because he's playing table tennis all the time now I've really enjoyed doing it This is like a lady slob If I don't do any work over the weekend they all moan at me, if you don't because you're always round here nothing is said He don't get paid But I work very hard during the week What a load of rubbish So do I I don't work hard at , but never mind Don't, don't you all agree that I work hard during the week? No I don't, sweet Sweet nothing Er, er, are you going to sort of give me a timetable that I can read through to the phone and that it's not booked up What? What? Mm three quarters of an hour last week Shut up Richard, that's a sore subject Yeah, we noticed Yeah, yeah, shut up and then this, this, the phone went and I picked it up and this squeaky voice at the end of the phone said I thought who the hell's that Wasn't that me? Yeah that's Jane Yeah that's Jane didn't say anything Jane did say something oh well I'm glad Just oh it's nice to be, he say glad and happy I was moving I thought you never and then, then, then he got confused because What happened? Jane kept talking to him, but it sounded remarkably like David Oh well who was, who was it David? Was it Clare? No? It doesn't bother me Who was it then? Somebody for me It was dad ringing It damn No it wasn't , it was Simon it damn well sounded like David to me Oh It was, it was my friend Simon It certainly didn't sound like your friend Simon and he certainly didn't put on a silly voice like that silly twit did No, that's his normal voice, ow so erm sugar No Do you want it? No Not really Why not? Can somebody tell me where the sugar is please? It's in the sitting room by Louise what the hell's it doing in there? What did you say Richard? I've saved my money as much as possible What for? I'm opening my own business so I need a lot of money Opening what? Opening your own business are you? Yep What in? Aquatic retail What Do you mind bringing it back here it wasn't me it was Louise Clare Yeah yeah, this is a good thing for the tape innit? What? What you going to call this one, domestic bliss? I, oh yeah So er what do you think I should call my business? Richard I dunno, she's trying to But erm What you should call your business? How do I know that that bath towel needs washing? What shall you call your business? Erm Ha Static Aquatic Well it's more likely to be yours as well you see My business as well is it? have to persuade you Oh I see Dad's going into business? Can I be a shareholder? if you pay some money, yes Well that's what shareholders usually do He can be, he can be a fish if you like Yeah but when do I get my sh my money back? Ha, you don't When I make a profit Profit, how much? Do I get more profit than I paid in? Depends how well the business is doing We shall get, we shall, we shall Well, well I'll become a shareholder after I've seen how What, what will happen is that, is that Richard and I will be, will be found in er in some sort of, two million pound yacht off the, off the Canary Islands, sort of Ha, you get ready to jump, plunge off the side in, in what you might call hot water I have faith in your erm in your business instinct Richard, but not, but not enough to put money on it till I see them Oh that's quite honest, it's perfectly normal, but erm, I'm trying to persuade your dad to buy forty percent of the shares What? What a load of rubbish no, one percent that'll only cost you a small amount Ha small amount of A small fortune Bull What? Bull Bull what? that won't cost a little bit It will cost a little bit Like how much? You can call it Don't know yet Like how much? he could sort of call it Fish Dick's Tickle Could call that yeah That's a good one, that's a good'un, I like that No it's a no No, no I like that one, yeah Dick's Tickle's good That's a good one Dick's Tackle Please don't come here Er I'm gonna have an interview with a guy next week about some stuff, so I should find out, I have had three replies from the fifteen I've sent out, I sent out another five last night this is What, what to? Companies What for? Information on What about? er you serious about this? Of course I am Are you Richard? I think he's mad Of course I am Er Jane are you washing Chloe? Shampooing her? I hardly think so, seeing as I'm going out in approximately two minutes She's had , she's just come in with that Well you two can do it when you get back from the walk, just left me to do it No I doesn't I do it when I get back No, you do, more than halfway through or something want to do it as soon as possible no point in going Of course it does heading off to the vet of course it's serious it's costing me two and a half grand at least Eh? I'm not joking, spending a fortune You are? Yeah And you're expecting dad to spend that as well? No, don't be stupid Dad Is dad paying about forty pounds then? What you will? No dad I don't know how much he's paying, I don't even know if he wants to do it yet, it's me who's got to talk to firms I've gotta think of a name though, I like that actually What? The boyfriend No I like that, that's good You won't get any of my share if you do You won't get any customers let alone her customers? What are customers? Oh customers or I thought you said gostermers I thought That's quite good for you, yeah, not bad oh good it is recording, erm How are you paying? Is this your Walkman then Richard? No they gave it to me They give you a Walkman, they give you tape, they give you batteries, I told you all that Jane Do you get to keep it? No You've got no mind at all, she doesn't take anything in, she's like a sieve So I give you the address the, the tel telephone number, you can ring her up Thank you, I don't know if I can be bothered for twenty five pounds, no I would if she asked me, but I don't know if I'll bother ringing up as well Oh god What for? What for? I can't just ring up and say hi two of my, well a friend and an acquaintance are doing this, this thing, can I do it? Let's face it we all do Well do it the same time because we're in the same class and speak to all the same people and we'd get all the same results So what, you get twenty five quid for it It's not a that's what I'm gonna do, stupid I reckon that you'll get mega bucks because you're I reckon you'll get mega bucks because you're a Oh god all that chronic jargon for you What for? This is the erm, the er, the, the choice of Don't mention the name of, of the, the no it's not, mum says you've got to fill in a form and say who's talked and how old we are and Yeah that's, that, but doesn't realize who it is when No Did you have to sign the Official Secrets Act? No My name is Tamsin Dad's not allowed to take it to work unfortunately so Why not? Cos he can affect some, all the stuff is secret ooh It's a pain it's the same with dad then isn't it? Do what? Dad couldn't take it because it's confidential Yeah, right Mm Ah Louise here comes the star of the show Hello The star of the show, the idiot of the place come in please then You're looking very smart No she don't she's right repulsive Richard just because the tape's on doesn't mean to say you've got to lie I wasn't lying Richard you're a liar Are you leaving all this mess I'm not leaving any mess I've not left any mess, don't look at me I'm not the messy one Mess Bye Chloe I've got to go mum Oh, I start doing a different language then chance will be a fine thing What? Mum can you get my I go never to return Are we off now dad? Off? Off? Absolutely Here Now then Richard, by the way tape this person no I didn't When they ring this erm these chats or whatever Yeah er quite a lot of the time we cause so much fuss the blokes are ringing here. Well dad that's the best way of doing it Well it's not because, because I object to the phone being taken out of commission for that length of time Oh yeah so yeah so do I, oh exactly I think that's downright rude And it is a problem and er, and er other people can't ring in, they just give up if they Yeah you, if you try once or twice fine, but you just give up. I must of tried probably fifteen times last night to get through. Well that's, that's just, just can't predict and, to have it going on time after time after time, it's bad, bad form for, for the phone, and the bill and all concerned Yeah but to me it's just, it's just slack behaviour as far as I'm concerned Yeah if you see each other several times during the day Exactly I think, then what on earth does he want to be on the phone for that length of time for. Oh I agree Okay if you want a private conversation well go and have a private conversation, but borrow, borrow the code of silence from or get smart or something Exactly, yes, true Mm oh yeah, yes, I agree, if for too long it does add up It gets up my nose I'm not altogether surprised, but I do it every now and again, I want a private conver conversation with one of the, one of my colleagues No question you're doing, exactly needed but I mean you I erm You have to it is your phone unfortunately that, that, tends to be therapeutic, I, whereas, well they've just got these, these business like these, these two silly blokes who erm You've got Jane as well What? Jane and Clare now is it? No Jane's not, but she well She speaks to her friends quite a lot they start to ring their friends up when they've just left them during the day, fine Well that is stupid if you want a bit of information, if you want to find out what page you're supposed to be doing your homework from or It's alright if it's a three minute call like you say Fine, I don't mind Yeah but it just goes on and on and on, over what did so and so said, oh no Yeah dear, dear exactly just natter and natter all the time I don't start doing it , I, well don't blame you, yeah. You see I get erm Well just downright rude I think it's ridiculous of Alistair but he, it is his business, you see, I'm gonna use the phone a hell of a lot when I get mine going, but I will But in that case if you're going to have that, then you've a right to have two lines in the house Exactly and use one as a business line Exactly and one as a pleasure line Exactly and that's what I'm gonna do, exactly if there's anything you can do Yep, I agree, exactly and that's the only way you can do it cos then you, you don't get any problems that the call's been er interacting Yes exactly, it's the only way you can do it and I wouldn't do it any other way, because I don't bel I don't, I don't think it's fair, if I was using the phone continually I'd get rather annoyed, I mean that I'd, they'd have a right to be annoyed, but as I don't I think it's ridiculous so I'm not hardly surprised at all, so I think it's stupid as you say, but there you go. Er perhaps put a pay phone in, but of course Oh, why don't you put a pay lock on? Well because er Mum and dad have threatened that regularly Well I mean the trouble is that Watch I went round,wha wha wha what's all this front seat driving? I would of seen it by the time I'd got to the next one Exactly , so what were you saying? You do er, what? I forgot what I say now, it's all this intense recording that's putting me off You were saying about the phone, you were, you were thinking about doing whatever I went to see a patient, a, a, a woman who's husband had died they're a pa a pain because you want to ring nine nine you've got to take the darn lock off, there's er trying to Yeah but would you need that? Why not keep the phones such as the main one downstairs and the other one as open, I mean as closed and have your own personal one upstairs, in your room or whatever well I, as I say I've got a, see I'm, you have this You've got to have a phone that, that's going to ring, ring through with the erm the patient, need to be on the er there, don't we? Yes, that's, that's the, that's the way to do it The only reason we've got several phones is that we, because if you don't, you don't hear them or why don't you have erm, get the girls to pay a percentage of the bill, get them to note down all the calls they make and work it out, that's a way of doing it What with? What do you mean what with? What with to pay with? Money Oh money oh you take it out their pocket money They don't get any Fine you take it out their bank accounts, you, that's the only way you can do it, we don't give them pocket money, that's the only way you can do it, That's the way that mum and dad With all these phone calls, we're out of pocket See we've got four phones in our house and it does add up Oh I believe we've got four phones in our house in operation Well the the system only takes four so we've got that and so I, er, I'm gonna have to, how much does it cost to put your own line in? Er, your own line in, I thought you weren't allowed to do that? I mean there's this line Oh I don't know this is all things I've got to consider when I'm starting this thing It'll cost a bit It's gonna cost me a fair bit to get lines to the house I want so I've got, er I, the problem is with, as dad was saying this morning, the majority of people when they're starting their business they go to the wall because oh they're going in for the, oh it's gonna be a quick sale Mm and we're gonna get quick turnover and we're gonna start making loads of money easily Yes, that does but you don't it all starts off very slowly Exactly and if, if you can break even in the first two years you're very lucky Yes and that's what I'm gonna be aiming to do, if it, if I break even in two years I'd be happy cos I've made money back and then I'll be making profit after that, and you won't make it back in the first year, no way Don't forget you're only putting, you're only part time, you're pushing to do your work hard Well mum will be doing, mum'll be the secretary and then I will have someone in to do it Oh I'm paying someone, I'll pay a Y T S guy to do it and that Oh so that's why I need this summer and part of er working during the week, week days to get money to pay for it Oh cos er, I, I'm selling the fish tank for a start, for a hundred What? I'm selling the fish tank to get some money Really? for er, I'm selling that for a hundred and thirty No so, yeah I'm getting rid of that to get some Mm I'm selling my, erm remote control car to get money You mean you're selling your fish tank, you can't sell a fish tank Mm, yeah, I'm selling a fish tank No Yep, to get rid of that Oh my god so that's going for a hundred and thirty pounds who's buying that then? Dunno I, there's a friend of mine and I'm selling it in the pa have to advertise in the paper as well so that money's going to it, I've made, I'm having a word with the bank manager for business facilities and then opening an account with him at the bank to er basically get some extra, a business account going which I don't touch, er I need to get credit facilities done on the bank, accounts and stuff, dad's gonna look through it completely with me and work everything out, but for the next six, seven weeks I'll be too busy with the school work to really concentrate on it, cos exams start at seven weeks time now Yes so I'm going to be very busy doing the evenings, doing my work. Absolutely. Well I don't know I'm gonna make this work, I'm not rushing into it, I'm, I rush into a lot of things I noticed that but I'm not rushing this time, cos I'm, if, I'm putting, I'm spending two and half thousand pounds on this, I'm not wasting my money Yes cos it's a lot of money to be perfectly honest Right, well we've recorded this for so long, can you use some bigger words now please? Bigger words? Yeah, you need bigger words if it's going into the dictionary Some bigger words, what kind of thing, er supercalologilistic Er yes it is really, it's a bit too long for me that one though Erm, protocol, that's a good one Only three syllable though Mm, er what to think, oh I can't think of any words, oh we're going to go off for an interview now anyway. Mm, looks very nice Yeah? Yeah, he's done a great job Will won't he? I like the bit where he's er wrapped the little bits all the way round Yeah, they're brilliant Well they were there only, they were there before you see Oh it looks very much mm snazzy now but er oh of course, I mean, er all and nice, clean and varnished, oh good Well he did varnish it, didn't he? Of course he did, yes So it's worth it for twenty quid innit? Twenty five Or twenty five It's good, yes So well excellent are you going to get all your like that? Well I don't need to like that. So he obviously thought it was worthwhile doing that Not really I just made him do it Well I liked it we gave him the bread and we did it Exactly, so he's a What? Sorry? It needs to be in the dictionary, bread Your definition of money of course, er, eh, well I suppose so, but well, there you go, so. No I think it's You send these people twenty five tips full of science, which I normally speak it's what I Oh well what they say then? I don't know, I suppose you've still got your voucher, I get the voucher next Friday, so What about it? They pay you to do it What in a week? Yes, a week You mean a week I've only got a week to do them Cor so I get paid twenty five not long is it? pounds for doing it Really? Yeah, it's not bad for a go. So where are these coming? Kent, I've dr erm I've written to them so he's gonna send back a erm How do you get this then? price list , well I'd of sent for them, they'll post them to me by Securicor What by post? Yes, it's only a, an hour Oh they post them straight or I'll go and collect them. They won't go through a letter box I'll be at home, idiot, or er, it's in Kent so I can get dad to pick them up for me That's true so I'll get, I'll get all the prices whatever, he's got like thirty six inch coin er Mm Japanese, it's a massive one, one er, it's a thirty thousand gallon erm pond and it's got, and it goes through a filter box and it's four and a half tons of erm four and a half tons and that is a lot of I should think it is, what is ? is the stuff that I've got in a little bag, got little bag full Oh yes and that's where the that you've got in your pond Oh that's how much four and a half ton of costs, just ever so slightly, it's more about Yes er, so it's a bit expensive Absolutely but erm, so I'll order them, I'll pay for them when I'm there you can pay back when when I get them You won't get them anyway Of course I'll get them there are, they don't sell Well why do you think they've advertised them? Yes, but they're going and then they've got them in the ponds, they've got them all in their ponds, so they're obviously okay, they're for ponds so it, I think if we probably get ten, fifteen on the, cos I'm gonna be so used to seeing them, cos I'm gonna be ordering those, I'll order all the carps and you've got as well Oh nice Yes so I'll get hold of some well, if you can get on with doing that thing, sit down and look through those magazines with me and I'll show you the prices that I can get them at retail I mean at trade, all the prices cos I've got that two and a half thousand gallon job and that is only seventy quid, so I'm just gonna have one of those, I'm gonna have that with a U V A filter and eight er eight watt U V A filter which is fifty quid, that then, which is for one of those tanks which is for three hundred and fifty, but that's not, I've that's Oh retail I haven't worked out trade yet. So that's basically lost about five hundred quid a set Oh thing and that's without a pump, so to set up it'll cost me probably a thousand and a bit and I want and then I'll need to have the rest of the money left over to survive Yes do it that way, but I'm not rushing into this, I'm doing it very, very slowly cos it ain't worth it with that much money To be perfectly honest. Seemed to be going down to south coast of the river Yeah he is isn't he? Wake up mate, get out the middle of the road. I've got sore wrists again today Well you shouldn't play tennis on, on er on squash probably it's probably been slapped pathetic, it's ridiculous I really do. You see, well, you know, I think the trouble is what do I say now? You tell them what you damn well think. I think it's absolutely, I think it's perfectly, thing is I think it's blooming awful I really do. You don't have to be careful, you obviously have to Yes you do watch their fees, but they haven't watched yours for crying out loud it's quite obviously, but I think it's, it's ridiculous, because you're looking at doing it that way, the other, it's ridiculous Well I mean the erm, I had some bins and all stuff, buy some bins and stuff for the office, she's ordered all sorts of things I, I had, I, I Yeah, but it's not gonna go back and get her blamed Well this is the trouble you see it's erm, it's, it's not fair. If she's gone without asking anybody then, anybody fine, then maybe, maybe reasonable to she's asked you but then again I don't know the ins and outs of the practice or but I just think it's unfair the way they're treating you. I, if I was you, I'd be extremely pissed, but then again I've got the temperament where I won't sit down and take something if I don't like it. Well I've made it not to if, if, if I, if I, if, if they'd ordered, been ordered on my say so, I have made an autonomous decision, well you, there's so many people in that place making autonomous bloody decisions, why shouldn't I do a few? Exactly Aha it's, it's, it's ridiculous I just think it's very unfair that they regard you that way. You go for these people and ask for a board and this sort of thing it's just, it just gets to be demeaning, the practice manager should have, should have within a reasonable area to order the things that she feels she wants for herself Mm I'd better go and warn her now I suppose Yes, it's only fair yes I would ah there you go, ah that's gonna ruin her weekend innit? But it sounds as those, those two probably have the same feelings as you do, when it comes to the crunch they don't make a note It's up to the wimps when it comes to the crunch Exactly, they know, exactly , so why the hell should you be quiet all the time? It's not fair if you said how, what you feel, then maybe they'll change it but they're not going to do anything without them knowing you, because they don't know them until you've told them do they? How can they change it if they don't know what you're feeling? But they probably do they're too bloody erm, insensitive to bother The problem here is, if, if, if, if, the, what's, what's happened is if, if that, if anything gets bought there in the practice, that then is taken out of our remunerations, so if we spend six hundred pounds on the stuff in the prac in, in, in the reception area Yeah that then means each partner is then a hundred pounds less for, less pay at the end of the month Right so then they're gonna quibble about it, do you understand that? Yes, oh yes There isn't so much for the expenses and so on, so, they're gonna sort of start grumbling Mm er, all I've got to do is to get ev every single part ev every single partner because they're a hundred pound less and then I then, I'm up a, up a creak aren't I then? Mm Curses, curses and heavens to done nothing today again, as usual We're not doing bad I've got all the bits and pieces I could we've got those things there and we've got the erm garden done. There's a very huge amount we can do in winter This is true, yes there is No there isn't, right what'll we do tomorrow? What do you want to get done tomorrow then? I don't know I'll come dressed looking dirty here tomorrow Yes or something like that we need to get something done Well we'll just have to work very hard tomorrow,tis Yes quite simple just so many bits and pieces to do, I need to come and get this to come and give me some further comments Oh well, wouldn't go to him to be honest What? I wouldn't go to him to be perfectly honest Why not? Because he doesn't appear to do a very good job, he doesn't turn up when, at times, he doesn't ring you to tell why he's not turning up and that sort of person is not a good idea to go for No, this is true unless you produce contracts, which is cheap, exactly, I'd rather pay for the quality Mm, mm well that's of course you've got the money Well, I think it's worth five hundred pounds then for the quality and the service isn't it? Don't chew your nails I'm not chewing them Oh dear well Take ah, erm, take it into the squash club I would think. Take a recording of my abnormal breathing Ah you could try that I suppose Yeah, would you like to try that? you could sort of wear it while you're playing Yes, great idea What you wanna do is leave it in the squash club, in the actual er court Oh yeah, good idea take it down and put it in the bottom of the because then you can get, I can hear you two talking, and see what you're doing during sport, great idea, should try that. Three thirty, the only thing about it, you know, I never know if I've got anybody who, who, who, who, who I'll be able to play with you see. Well wouldn't they tell you? No, you write it, you ring in and it all depends on who's about to play Well you rang in No cos there must be someone there no, they put your name down Oh at three thirty, if nobody else rings that wants to play three thirty then there'll be nobody there Well I'll give you a little knock around and usually they're a better, the better players come later on you see I'll give you a knock around Ya ha if there's nobody else there and then what they do is they normally, they normally erm Oh it's a bit, good God it's busy today change you over you see Oh it's the Open this afternoon What's the Open? It's, it's the Open here I mean it's The open what? The erm, the championship What? this afternoon Is it? Yes it is I hope not I do believe so No, it won't be because they don't do the, they don't do an open afternoon if it's a championship I believe No, there's nobody here much What do you mean there's nobody here, it's packed No, there's hardly anybody in Oh well they'll be in the pub that lot Getting the ball back within a degree of percentage and be able to get yourself back into position er you've got to be very careful with that. Well I think you did very well much better than last time as it goes A bit, a bit good that fella Oh he's no better than you Oh yes he was No he wasn't more accurate No nice, serves into the back, very difficult to get out again No he wasn't as, as, strong-wise he was hitting as well as you, but he was he wasn't as, much better than you at all. Oh you can't watch yourself play can you? You are, you, you were very sort of standard-wise Yeah but I thought that you were very good today, much better than before Aha and that I it gets a bit better as you get a bit, a bit further on it Exactly you'll get You loosen You loosen , exactly Yeah I did do lot looser my back dropped off mine, ho, ho, ho, ho You didn't do your back No, you're right no, you don't, go on change you beggars, change, yeah, you won't change, ah, ha, ah, ha Blasted traffic lights ah, ha , ah, ha got a cough now Oh well my head Oh I I've got a headache Oh dear Pretty vicious actually Oh, oh, oh God knows where it's from or why I've got it, but I have Mm, mhm, mhm I canna stand oh shine What? I've forgot my money, I've forgot my, I want some money out I'm gonna get stir crazy not being able to play badminton I know, and I score, it's gonna drive me crazy Eh you drive me crazy, crazy three months hell of a long time What? not to be able to play You stop, don't move I'm cold Why? Aha, I've been there twice Right been there two weeks ago, are you cold? No, I'm hot We had to pay, I did my arm in and I had to damn well pay Why? to go in there Why? Well we parked in the car park and he charged us in there Yeah place , nice place, oh it's run by National Car Park, N C P, National Car Parks It's sodding expensive Don't move Yeah don't go, at least we haven't got far to carry if she does what down there No I didn't mean that Oh dear, he used to belong to the squash club Who did? Did he? Mr Is he good? Taffy , yeah he's alright Will you give me a game, when er my arm's better? Oh crikey, you won't be able to play squash, if you can't play badminton Why? I can play badminton thank you, even though you've beaten me. Come on let's go oh goodness yeah have a game if you like But it won't be for a while Right we're off What do you mean you'll never beat me? Come on let's go,oh goodness Yeah, have a game if you like It won't, will it? End of February, March, April,God it's nearly the end of May before I can start playing again Oh look don't go into me you bugger will you? Went down and had a fish at Hills Bay on Wednesday Why? What do you mean why? Cos I wanted to You fished in Hills Bay? Yeah What with? Er ragworm Oh yes Not a damn thing, I froze my nuts off, it was freezing. Were you the only person fishing in Hills Bay? Yeah, me and my friend, were Oh the only two Is he a good fisherman? Very Is he? Oh he's got all proper equipment, he is and he, he, even he didn't catch anything? He didn't catch any either. Oh, you see you've got to get We gave up after two hours it was too cold got to get me with the Yeah it was just I'm a just freezing. When Ted took me out into the sea, we had fifty fish Oh God yes in the middle of the sea, yeah, you get loads Ah but we were just down there What? fish were down there Yeah it was a bit cold Well er puncturing ragworms was disgusting Oh it's good you hold the mouths open Oh yeah and stick it down, oh yuck Hope they don't bite you Oh yeah, exactly Is there any spare boxes in there? You look and see if there's any spare boxes Yeah there is are there? Yeah Oh good, coming down here then boyos, there we go, whoops-a- daisy. Have a look at some really knives Don't want to thanks They're great prices, they got some lovely penknives look at knives Have a look at these penknives I want a what else am I going for you? Erm I'm going for a tank stopping unit, look out, get that window down boy Oh meant you, erm a vinegar jar Oh yes that's right, is that as fast down there? Oh good Yes there's loads loads of spaces that's good Well you're looking for a new penknife so look at the penknives No I'm not, I'm not looking for a new penknife at all boy Ah there we go, there's loads there Where? Why is it everyone goes for the most difficult car parking spot? Why, I don't know Ha I don't believe Ah phew, you? No it's not me Sure? It must be me then. Blooming cheek. What's that then? Oh well it was going when I was, you were talking all the way back from the squash club Was it? Yes, it is now What's it doing? Mind that lady, it does help if you Mind baby Oh God, it's cold go, here it goes What number? That's it I notice he charges Eh, she's a rhinoceros isn't she? What? Is she a rhinoceros? Oh right Oh God that's awful rhinoceros she's an Essex girl Oh dear me does this tape recorder understand Essex girls? I don't know, I wonder if I should explain it Do it cold So where we off to now? Mm, what? Where we off to now? No, no, surgery, B and Q Right three and Q, I don't know, I'm trying to find a tap hole stopper, I've got to find a tap hole stopper somewhere Well why don't you go over to Wimborne quickly and get it off of them? I don't want Was It'll be closed soon you dent doolly a bump that to be in a dictionary dent doolly a bump yes, well, oh I'm cold Look at this Ah she's Go that way, go the Yeah, tape it as well Mm, mm? Take it this way, this way in, yeah there's fishing down there, freezing Where? Where? Where? Over there No fish in line, fish in line with the wreck er and then fished in line with the end of that reed boat Oh didn't get a bite on any of them, not even a take, crabs oh the fish are about down there Where? can you see? Seagulls are out there They're not gonna catch any big ones are they? Nothing noticeable, it's normally a good sign though put some speed on you are oh speed is ninety around here What? Speed limit's ninety around here Seventy Yeah, but we always go eighty, they always allow you to go ten what is she doing? Pulling over to the right lane to turn right down the Royston Bypass What a prat, she should of been further al further along Why? Because you don't pull out in front of a car going seventy miles an hour How do you know it's a she? Because it's an obnoxious move, it must be Looks like a fella to me That is no I can't see, wow quick overtake her see if we can see Sorry stop in here, Do It All No let's go and see in Do It All Do It All won't have one Yes they'll have one, I've not been in there go and have a look in Atlantis while you're here What's Atlantis? Atlantis has got, they're an electrical shop, they're on sales, see if you can find No, I don't, I want the tap all bloody stuff, I don't want a new whatsit you can see yes exactly, dad can get erm fifteen percent off there and you can give That's his car he didn't want one, I say you're gonna get one if, if, if, if Mr going, you'd better go and get one, but oh no she wouldn't Poo! What stinks? The plant The bloody plant? Oh no no wonder they're selling them mm, they stink Oh I love it Do you wanna smell? Oh toxic Is it? No, What's what stinks then? Oh I didn't want to tell you this Phil, but What? it's the you've gotta No, this isn't gonna smell, I like the condom it's wearing It's just the things you poke your hairs up on a sharp stick You can do a blue movie with this thing What? Do shut up, what's that doing in there? Get it out Oh dear Have a goody Oh thank you, oh I love these, what you done to them? Don't know, they're melting What have you done? I use that thing which sort of congeals them together That was a long word, congeal Here's another word conjugal I don't know why, good God what the hell's he doing over the road? He's not in the middle of the road He's not supposed to be in there, what the bike is doing, you're not allowed to go on this road It's a woman I rest my case Yeah Women Erm close your window Why? otherwise you'll knock out the record Oh, sorry about that I thought was cold I apologise for any temporary loss I wonder where I'd get that vinegar from? I'd probably get it from Boots Boots Mm Ah well, there we go Mm there we go Do you rest your case? Yes, this Mm? Aha, you can try in Quick Save, they might have one I doubt it You can try Oh yeah and where here? Mm I shall go in Here I go, here I go, here I go, we are off to the show to the show ho We didn't do bad here, it was quite quick actually Always quite quick, always quite quick doesn't cost me anything, me personally it costs the practice Ah, but who's gonna pay for it oh hurry up, hurry up, hurry up What? I need the loo And I need a sweety, have another sweety Thank you, I love these, mm What you love them for? What? What you love them for? I just like them What? I just like them You do you Mm, yeah Oh mind my fish erm best get all the work done tomorrow Why? Cos we will I'll come dressed for dirty work tomorrow There's dirty work afoot eh? That's right Do you want Morse taken out? If you can find him you can tape him Why's he home? No How? Anything you want taped? No He started he's back next weekend Who? Morse No he's not Brand new series, yes it is Is he? Yeah, brand new series Oh good oh right It look's quite good actually I erm, it's on tonight er old Regan's on tonight Regan? Mhm Regan Oh John Thaw in Regan Oh right pilot for the series I thought it was gonna stop I doubt it I hope he is Do you want that taped? No thank you Alright then, oh Regan as in Sweeney? Yeah Oh pilot tape for it you see Oh right, yes yes the Sweeney it's quite good it ba, ba, ba with Dennis Waterman,ba, ba, do, ba, ba, ba, ba, ba, ba quick mow that jogger over got him, now we've got time turn this when we've done this, erm, put the plants in and everything till I gave it at table tennis you can't get any work done if you play table tennis Well we'll get the motor work done first Mm then play table tennis No Yes, I've gotta have a chance to win again No chance Where were they, five five games on? Er, no you won six five Did I? Yes Oh It was quite disastrous Mm so we'll go from er six five up to whatever Oh look at those big beggars Er are they swans or geese? Don't know, geese I should think Geese, get the guns Herons , herons They're not herons, herons don't fly in threes How many do they fly in then? Ones they're still they fly in one's what? On their own singularly That's a long word isn't it? Singularly yeah that's not so bad What's it mean? Something to do with singling,si si singing We we can have a game of count down masters Count down masters cogitation don't follow that one up Mm Come on oh the loo, how much further is it? I'm getting desperate Ah desperate's a good word Desperado, singular desperate Mm Latin for desperado Oh dear oh it's down about here when, did it the other day, and the woman just drove out straight in front of me from another lane Lovely I just, I mean, why bother having roundabouts I ask myself Well it was a woman come on Yes it was a woman women don't comprehend roundabouts, driving cars Oh you should know that by now, nothing is ever it is an excuse What? er don't put your ear piece to the micro to my blooming sweets I'm not keen on ear droppings in my sweets They're not mine, don't worry Mm, I know I love it, I love it. So why have you started taking up the bag? Why have I started taking up? The sweets They are marginally easier to eat that way I don't mean, I mean why have you taken up the other, the plastic bag and put it in that? Mm, why it's a horrible bag? Oh, oh you can pop in and get your fishing magazines while you're down here Why? Well why not? What fishing magazine? Your fishing guides It's shut is it? It shouldn't be it's six o'clock Not stopping now I haven't got no money anyway sorry I haven't got any money for the tape oh dear Oh fish and chips, I fancy fish and chips No you don't Well I fancy the woman serving My, it's a man It's a woman, I wouldn't mind her on a bed of lettuce, ha, get out the way morons. Have you ever tried Max's kebabs? No Mm, pretty good, hey there's Danny's dad, he'll go right up high, erm up er, up Roman Road, I bet you Which one? That one in front see it's gone, ram him over Oh not to over there, dear oh dear I want to be Danny's dad, I want to be Danny's dad go that way look Oh he's going the wrong way, moron, mm, where's he going? Bonsoir, bonsoir Wow oh dear What? I now realize why it was reaching love it, it's getting right erm,bom bom bom So if we're going to do er I'd better unclip this hadn't I? Yo Yes not one not once not one but two Oh that's awful Oh dear You'd thought that these houses could of least put a bit of paint on Why? Make it look more attractive No They look grotty like that I still think that you should buy Jean a Range Rover Why? She likes them, nice cars I'll buy her a dinky toy one they're beautiful Mm, they might be beautiful but they're difficult to run What do you mean difficult to run? They're a damn sight more efficient than this I'll tell you that for a start Rubbish they take more petrol, but servicing-wise they don't require as much Rubbish they're probably a lot more expensive to run than this Well just because this is a Jag H J six convertible, it's neither here nor there Oh, what the whole part of the problem running is, is the depreciation thing, the more, the more you spend on a car the more the more depreciation you're going to get Oh I suppose so I'm not saying I suppose it's better well this is a classic car as they go It's a, it's a, it's a er Oh no What? le pool de javelle horse dirt, mm I don't know if we're supposed to be talking er French We weren't Ah at last home So that's basically, I now got a B grade for and that gives Mm so that's English, and I've gotta get, er he reckons he'll get a B grade for the er lit, but I was so cheesed off with that erm piece I got today, thirty five and thirty five, one mark off being er an A, he put at the bottom aargh, if only you'd seen the lousy ending, cos he said if I'd got the, an extra couple of sentences it er would of been forty eight, forty, so that's, so annoying, but I've now gotta write an informal letter, I don't know how that comes under informal letter You write to an imaginary friend, you're inviting him down for the summer holidays and you say all that, all about the sort of things that you're planning to do with them, make it up Can you put bad spellings in those as it's informal? No you cannot, you'll write it like a normal, a formal letter, like you would write to Melanie That's not formal It's informal it's that use of formal No an informal letter You said write like a formal letter Well you do, but you don't put, don't put like heading for a business thing and Oh just the normal address and date and dear wh whatever it is Er and then you write, just write a set paragraph just as you would normally. see if I can get a grade A for this one, that, if I can get a grade A for the er next two pieces that I'm doing, which I've got to hand in, that could take me to a B grade after that. Did you erm, give in a formal letter? No he said don't give them in yet, but do the informal first, so I'll do the informal, we've got to do an informal Well don't talk about it, go and do it Yeah I'll do it later Well do it now you're not doing anything before dinner Dinner's now No dinner's in at least twenty minutes at least if you rough Twenty minutes Probably, if you just rough out Yes it's easy enough those so, I hope they don't get bitchy because most of mine are on, on the computer well then write the song through, write the informal letter by hand Yeah, I might do your handwriting's quite nice and neat Erm, oh I've got another piece back that I've twenty nine, twenty nine as it goes That's a C innit? Yeah, but that goes, that goes in the lit file, so I got rid of my er with the thirty five I managed to get rid of erm Who's got all these things? They're at school in a box Thank goodness for that but er, so now I've got a thirty six, thirty five, thirty four, thirty four, thirty four, thirty two and thirty, so that's a B count in B file, so there's no hassle with that, but if I can get on and get rid of the er, I've got twenty eight, twenty nine in there as well, er twenty eight in there as well, so I want to get rid of the twenty eight and twenty nine but it is a guarantee that a B file, so there's Mm no real worry about it, but erm I want to do better What about your economics? Or don't you know that yet? Yeah, he still keeps far faffing around with the erm whatever detail, yeah, he still hasn't given it to us Well how you supposed to do it? Did you get, did you get that thing finished er geography whatever it was? Something, something Science well well whatever it was you No had to finish off? No Why not? Because I didn't have time, but er they started geography course work today and I was out the lesson Why were you out the lesson? The drama thing, so I'm a se a section hand already on that and I've even got a, well we're supposed to listen to it tomorrow, we've got a tutor period instead, so it means that we miss another lesson Can't you copy out what you, what you missed? Yeah, I'm out tomorrow night, I'm out school, selling books again so should be at home When you gonna get all this work done Richard? Yes I'm trying to get it done, but I am getting pressure from the year group as well, it was, and so I've got that, back out at Wednesday, so I'm gonna have to have my hair done last Gonna Wednesday what? Erm, got a rehearsal haven't I? But you can't back out of the whole rehearsal I mean I've backed out of going, having, I'm supposed to be working on that on the stalls as well but I backed out of that and said I've got a hair cut, erm, so I'll have to be done last. It's not, it's not gonna go on very long is it? Yes, er probably until about half four Well that's alright, she ain't she's not here till half three in any case Yeah, you'll have to come home a bit er, a bit er Yes I know She's so this'll probably be our last appointment here wouldn't it? No I was saying to her I'd probably have one more before I go anyway and er I'm, I'm gonna ask her if she with my, cos at that nana's there, I mean there'll be four of us there, it might be worth an hour and a quarter drive What her? She wouldn't wanna drive an hour and a quarter Well she might not, she might do She wouldn't drive an hour and a quarter, it's not worth it Well we haven't much choice, we'll have to arrange something else that's all, mm I don't, I don't wanna give her up, she's a good hairdresser Well you can hardly ask her to drive round and er an hour and a half An hour and a quarter for twenty quid It's not twenty quid, if Melanie and I have our hair permed, that's, that's two perms and two, two cuts And granny have it done Possibly dad can have it done Possibly nice family outing Er if she was to come over Saturday No, no, no she won't do that but she could, I dunno perhaps we can work something out, I dunno, er failing that we'd have to come out to her house Oh right, yeah, I'd rather go up the road, stupid I know, but she's really good though, I be shall sorry to erm, have to give her up oh dear, see that tutor tomorrow morning for an hour, hey hey What, get the job er copied up then I can't do job, it's course work, don't you understand? Well How am I suppose to copy up course work, it's my own work Do, do you study that at home then? What? A science or something Mum it's a tutor period, it means work Oh you'll have to work then don't sit around for an hour doing nothing I realise that Richard but don't be stupid Look, if you've got work to copy up, why can't you study and work in Because he's a tutor What do you do in it? I have D R N L As to do Mm, I used to let my when it's tutor period, get on and do some revision work Good grief. and it's much nicer it, they know what they've got to look at. I've got to go and see Wally in tomorrow for the forms, I ain't got any forms to fill in cos I'm officially not leaving, I'm only moving That's right, that's right change of address I don't know it yet it will be change, I can't say, is it, I mean I said it's a change of address, they know I'll probably be moved in four to six weeks Do get that out of your mouth please Which is it gonna be? I'm not signing or changing anything Richard until we have exchanged contracts Oh yeah, that's easy muck around do what I do No Richard because the whole thing can fall through when we have our survey done it might show a defect or something, we might pull out, when they have their survey done it might show a defect so they might pull out, you don't do anything Richard until the contracts have been exchanged, then you can start saying right I think that's, that's, every thing's definite Alright we were doing company law and Mm, mm I was damn good I knew everything, first I had to watch the accounts and secondly I'm looking at all this stuff for when I start my business Mm, mm so I'm saying ah that's that and that, that, so I basically have we were looking at erm, what's it? Partnerships, did you know that if I start a partnership with Phil right, mum Mm I will be completely liable for erm liability Yes but that's, wouldn't affect me because I'll be taking loans out so there and I can have up to twenty er partners, nineteen in fact, because there's twenty partners altogether, basically, so there is definitely benefits for being in partnership as if er, there's not, if you've got twenty partners or there's twenty of you altogether you're splitting profit twenty ways I'm not having twenty partners, I'm having Phil and that's it What, we'll sort it out later Erm when you've got the capital right? Erm, but sole, we're looking at sole proprietor as well, there's some good things in that, I E they're cheap to set up, stuff like that, so they're not bad as they go, but, I suppose well I'll have to sell when I've got more money, I didn't get any replies today not a single blooming one, I'm a bit cheesed off, so erm, I think I might ring back that one of the ones that I did get a reply from and say thank you. I would leave it for a while Richard Well dad said I should say something I would just leave it for a while But er, it's all I've had for now I suppose,oh God I've got maths tomorrow, hate maths No you don't I do Well that is, that is a really stupid attitude to go into isn't it? Oh I hate it No you be one G C S E I'll fail Don't be so silly, if he drops that glass I'm gonna kill him Dog went mad when I Eh? Sorry? Dog went mad Mm, mm dumping himself and running around and banging into doors and things, stupid mutt, so er, erm give him his Bonio, he gets, he now barks at me when I sit down, till I get up and give him his Bon Bonio mum Mm, mm well he is so cheeky, and you can tell when he's hungry cos he goes back for and stand by it again, sometimes he does and sometimes he doesn't Well more fool you for letting him Well he's obviously hungry if he wants say have a second Bonio so I just give it to him so what oh excuse me will look good with my full colour and commendations and credits and Which means we've done three times in a night and a half, Agnes? Oh, she's useless! So you're gonna write up the list? Yeah, may as well. But today when we finished up to the middle of th here. But erm so as what we have to do is to basically arrange start arranging things. Like songs. What do you reckon I should get? Sort of trout trout hors d'oeuvres and stuff? Oh my God! I can't stand fish! No, do smoked salmon. Or smoked salmon hors d'oeuvres. You know, bits of smoked salmon on cheese sticks and things. Ya. Poke people's eyes with a Cos you don't want wanna have a meal, sort of nicknacky that you can sort of nibble. Like Donna! Sausage rolls and stuff like that sort of thing. Yeah. I don't suppose you fancy taking this tape machine home tonight do you, and recording some of your conversation with your brother or something? The longest conversation we have is, get off the computer, it's my turn! Er, I wonder if we should take this to school tomorrow? Oh great laugh! Yeah, I tell you what you could take this to school for me. Why? And you could tape it, er imagine it's yours Yeah. well, then you won't get the comments will you that I get? Yeah. What do you think? One of the lessons I've got are design, and not a lot happens in design. What about German? We er German? Oh yeah, it's all in German,yeah ! Art? I don't think you wanna record those,you'll hear the conversations we have about you ! Oh! What about me? No we don't really. Andrew! Erm What is in that stuff? Are you quite finished ? No, why? Don't do it! Turn this off. Oh! Erm All you can do is leave it,ge take the out that one you know, like a and that, put that over the e end so it; s a nice warm bit like here, just enough to see. Oh you'll have to buy a new light top. Mm. You could of course, have a big marquee in the back garden. Oh yeah! Richard. What? Er, we're not gonna be able to tape er LA Law. Yes you are! I asked first! Erm, no because we're recording Red Dwarf for dad. I'm sorry, I asked first! I don't care! I do! Because you can tape like music, beginning music and then he can tape it, he only wants a couple of minutes beginning. If you only want the bloody music,whe I, what's the point of taping in the first place! I want the music, cos I wanna co introduce them to music, so tape it, I asked first! You got a tape recorder there! I asked first! Well it's, I don't care! So you tape the music, I asked first! Use that! No! I asked first! Use that! Alistare! No! It's my damn tape ! Right! Okay then! Yo fine, I'll just wipe the thing! It won't survive, I'll wipe it! Flipping scum! Punch his face in! Not like brotherly love! I hate him! Ah tho yo re , ah you don't really! So, we can have a marquee out in the back garden. Wo! What's this? Be a bit cold wouldn't it? Valentine, to Richard, from Richard. I know! Ro Roses are red, violets are blue, I'll get straight to the point, I want to bonk you ! Roses are red, violets are blue, most poems rhyme this one doesn't ! No, read it properly! Read it Right! properly! Roses are red the day is blue, my only wish now is that I spend it with you. Roses are red, violets are blue, I'm writing to tell you I'm in love with you. You never see me who wrote you that then? Er, er er er, Mel . I bet you, I bet you can't guess who . Thank you! No. Told you! You didn't believe me did you? And I had a Valentines Card, ha ha ha ! Ho, ho, ho! A tough, tough ! You know what he's waiting for ? Yeah.. See you've made a mess on the board as well. Mm! I mean it why grey inside? I wonder which poem book she got that out of? No, she wrote it herself. How do you know? Because, I do! Roses are red, violets are blue, I'll get straight to the point I want you! I want your body! Mm mm! Noticed the poems rhyme without detection there. It's because,I have a rather large A finger of fudge is just enough to give to give myself up! No. To win the by-election. A finger of fudge is just enough A finger of fudge is just enough to give me myself a dee dee dee dee! Stiffy! If, I'll fill my with goodness, nothing now can save her a finger of fudge is just enough so go and vote for labour! But don't! Please, now this is a conservative household! Oh alright! Maggie Thatcher rules good on her! Down with the poor! Up with the rich! I agree! Erm Oh he's gonna be busy on that night isn't he? Ah! I can, am bringing Claire a present tomorrow. About who? Graham. Why? I dunno. She wants to see who's interested in po in helicopters. I think it's which er sixty ki six Komenchi Ah! That's a nice helicopter! Where's the list gone? What? There was a list. List of what? Oh it's underneath there. Er it was there it is! Mm mm. Ah ! Kate, Donna, Helen, Jenny, Georgina, Sarah,Ji i er,Sa is that right? Read them out again, start from the beginning. Is that Chloe? Slowly. Oh is that Claire and Jim? Clare and Graham. Start from the beginning, slowly. It's, looks like Chloe actually. Sarah No, start from the beginning. Kate. No! I'm not gonna well, no. Not Kate? Not Kate. Donna? Definitely. Helen? Definitely. Jenny? Definitely. Georgina? Definitely. Claire? Definitely. Claire, another one? Definitely Sarah? Definitely. Rebecca? Maybe. Jessica? Maybe. Sarah wacko-jacko! Sarah wacko? Oh definitely! Oh A yes! four inch? Tony. No ! Paul . No ! Andy? No. Me? No! Paul ? No. ? No. No. No! Can't read that one! Danny. ? No. She must be joking! Paul and Bryant ? Erm, Bryant maybe. No. I didn't put Paul ! Couldn't have been him. So I'm gonna show dad that list this weekend see if he says oh oh oh! What that? Yes. He's not gonna know any of them is he? Well he will trust me not to invite rebels! And you can hardly say Yeah. that those are rebels can you? Helen Has he told yo , has he tol , if he doesn't know them he's not gonna know is he? Helen's quiet, Jenny's quiet ooh I tell you what, I'm beginning to fall for Jenny actually I have to admit. I'm not. She kept looking at me today in God! now, at lunch. Giving me all sad looks cos she feels sorry for me. My little Helen! Helen! My little Richard! A failure of natural selection! Ooh! You wanna perhaps. So if we can, yeah, well I suppose so. So I've recorded half an hour of tape already up here. I got Can't you spell ! What? Can't you spell ! ? Yeah. . It's starts with J actually, in case you were wondering! I thought was a G? That video was quite fun this morning wasn't it? Ah . Well talk about getting to the climax! Yeah ! But imagine that! I,th there's no need to show in schools or anything like that! There wasn't. I think that just slowed down, I think it was all done in about thirty seconds, they just slowed it down. No, it was that's Oh the music was building up, you know Yeah ! It had something for Yeah, that's it. everyone didn't it? Had music for me people bonking for you! And lots of computer graphics for James. It was quite funny wasn't it? Yeah I . It was quite funny, I have to admit. She was very good looking! I thought she looked like Sarah . You reck any, anyone who's blonde looks like her isn't it? Well, she yo , she was er do you think I should invite Sarah? If she'll come. But i , does she know any of those people? No, not really. That's the problem. She, she'll get on with them. No she's probably teetotal! And I'm not having Melanie ! Ah, you're joking! She's going out with a nineteen year old! She's gonna even lived with him! Who is? Sarah! What ? Yeah! Tell He's me more? he's he's er, she's goes for the rich guys you see. I'm not surprised! Mm! No. She's got everything! She's very intelligent, she's very rich, and she's very attractive! Mm, I don't know about very attractive, not bad, ha! She's damn good! I wouldn't kick her out of bed on a cold night! I must admit. But I'd sooner have the duvet to be honest about it! German in three months, ha! Yeah. It's not good! Oh what! Done really good! Well you still do it for three years and ! German in three years, like that. Well oh yeah! Acht bitter So, well that's what we'll have to do then. I'll have to have a have to have a word with good old dad and see what he suggests. Basically, say, ah ya! Das is good Das fater That's, my father in German. No! Erm yes. Didn't I just say it. Er er God I'm Then you say swina Mine a Ah ! Re er er er er Re , er er er er Open that cupboard . What? Cupboard. Who's in there then? And the other wo , and the other. Mm. Is there a green lined shirt in there? What colour? No! Green lined, it's white with green Oh! lines. That one? Yep. That's the one! Get it out. What one. The shirt. Why, what's it got in there? Just get the shirt out! What's wrong with it? Ge get it out on the hanger that's it! Don't knock it off! Bring it over. St. Michaels, oh yeah! We Good! Put it up on the door handle! we go to Marks and Spencers do we? Put it on the door handle. Of course, I'm getting twenty five quid from there. Put it on the door handle. Why? Cos I'm gonna use it tomorrow. Good! Put it on the door handle! That one? Yes! So just leave it on that, that's it. Good! Now go into the cupboard Right. and you should find a pair of trousers Oh! Why am I doing all this? Cos I can't be bothered to get up! Ah! In between the I can't be bothered to do it! red and the green shirts, there's a pair of trousers. Turn them in. Them ones? That's it! Can you get them out then? They're kind of a disgusting colour aren't they? You're not turning up to school in this are you? That's the one! It's all hanging out, it's all it's all hanging out. Put that on the door. Good! Have you ever thought about getting out of here, you know, if it's all on the door? Er denim jacket on top of that I think. I don't think so! Don't think, denim jacket? Well, where you going anyway? Just to Rush School. I'm just wearing the denim jackets as casual jackets to take off when we get there. Why what's happening tomorrow? We're going to perform our stupid play! About the sodding Rush and I'm gonna die! I thought they weren't I know all my lines, my lines is, my name's Robert and I like playing cowboys and indians. I then in front of Sam and she's the headmistress and I say, I've been sent to see you by Miss Huddy, Miss Trudgenell, because I got caught Miss Trudgenell! cleani ,co cos I got caught pulling a little girl's pigtails. She said erm tt don't you know it's ma only my privilege to do that? And I say, no Miss Trudgenell, she says er, why did you do it? I said, because I wanted to , see miss and she says, right! Bend over my table! She gets the cane out and just as she's about to whip me, er Jane walks in. And she bu , joins in does she? Yeah. And then er, basically, that's it! That's my lines. Danny has to go down on the floor, put his hands on hips and go, evening all! Bends his knees, cos he's a policeman ! Has to come in like this? Yeah. Evening all! That's it! That's right. Sting And he says police , impression of Sting, you know! Oh. Oh God! It's, he is such an awful actor! Even I can't I can imagine Daniel sort of coming in you know Exactly! Evening all! He is, he does! He goes,evening all! Evening all, prowlers ! He either under acts or over acts doesn't he? Not He does! Evening all! I'm a policeman !who's innocent? That's right ! He's he's just terrible! He's crap! What, do you reckon I should wear I reckon he'd better off with the music to be honest, I mean What me? No him Oh oh! No, he's no good! Shall I wear that one? Shall I wear that lemon one? What? Which one? That er, one in between, next to the red one. That one? Yeah. Oh my God, Richard! Looks like Ca Carly's curtains! She hangs them round her waist! She Or do you reckon I should wear a white casual Well,ha , you're supposed to be a five year old Yeah. dressed in that? Yeah. Bloody hell! Exactly! That's what I said! Have you got the little cap as well? With shorts on? I thought I se , I'll be a boy, er Donna's. What a cap? Yeah I know! I didn't know she was due ! What's the matter with grey trousers? Grey trousers maybe? Black shoes, grey trousers and that? I don't care! It's your What about black trousers? play! Put it somewhere. Oh! A cloak. Or do you reckon that shirt? Oh that's looks alright, leave it. What that one? You know the ones you have it tied, sort of half round your neck, you know. Like that. Do you think that, that one maybe? I dunno. If you like. Do you reckon she'll prefer it in that colour? No, I'm taking not bothering. I mean, nobody's gonna bother to check the colour of your shirt with about twenty other people on stage ? There's my Global Hypercolour. What a ! Ooh there again, what do you reckon to these? I've never worn these? Neither have I. I've only got one pair of I've only got one pair of Get into these actually. Yeah, I've got one pair presenting clothes . Bloody hell! This was half price! Aargh! Jesus! How much is it? Twenty five quid. Half price? Yeah. What do you reckon? Urgh! Those? Oh! Yeah if you like. That's a possibility. Do you prefer them to those ones? Not particularly. Right. Those are more casual actually. And I can wear a white shirt straight laced white. Ha er er ! What's Do , by the way, what's Donna wearing? Oh! Wow! You should see it man! Wo ooh, ooh, ooh! Tell you what, I do, but I can't wait that You want to. Wow! Erm, a very, very, very, very, very slinky erm black skirt and tights, and a very low top! I'm talking seriously slinky! Oh I see! A er phew! We're talking seriously tasty! So Not me, I sprayed my balls with that stuff. Oh lend you a jacket, moron! Er It's over there. So It's good stuff this! Thank you very much. You seen it? What sort of take it every morning ? That's right! Yep! It's good stuff for bad breath actually! Talk about, Just go See it kills all the throat hairs! The throat tissue . I suppose we should get our German actually shouldn't we? What German? German, German. All that? Yeah. To put our thing onto tape. How the hell am I gonna do that? Why? Mean, how the hell you gonna do that ? Yeah, what do have to say anyway? That thing we did in class. Oh that! Yeah. Ow! Ow! Ow! Right, so just a minute, so let's let's plug up this te te ,ta ta ta ta ta tape. Ivor ! How you gonna do that? No, use that while I'm doing the entertainment. That, oh So what?! Oh well I wouldn't mind being entertained by her! To be perfectly honest. Ooh that's nice! Ooh! Very nice indeed! Cor! That's a bit okay! Yes! This bloke means it! You got a flinch or something? What? You got a flinch or What? keep on doing that! This one? I'll in the eye, don't want this waste my expensive deodorant! This stuff costs a fortune now! This Lynx is expensive as well! This is one ninety nine a can! And it doesn't last very long, there's only about two week's worth there! Cos I absolutely spray myself to death! Erm booze, booze! We gotta limit that. So you don't want food? You don't want, you just want sort of crisps and nicknacky things Sausages. and sausages and hors d'oeuvres Sausages. Hors d'oeuvres. Salmon and you want salmon on rolls Salmon on biscuits? sam salmon the bed! Ha! Salmon on the rolls , and Salmon on ! salmon on toast and sort of stuff like that? Toasted salmon. Basically Do you know what? What? I feel like humping Donna again! Again? You're not supposed to say that! You're supposed to say, I didn't know you have? You haven't. No, but I felt like it before! Er I don't mind ! Ha ha ha ha ! You just messed that joke right up for me! Shall I, shall I tell you a joke about my car? No. My car's got a bidet in it. Yes! You told me that one! Yes, well that's er, er really not Andy! What about,I I thought that was quite good ! I've got a joke for you. What do you call a Scouse in a five-bedroomed house? Burglar. What do you call a Liverpudlian in a suit? Defendant. Yes! Oh you heard it? I was waiting for . You sod! Erm why do Essex girls wear knickers? Keep their nipples warm. Why don't , oh it was brilliant ! Why do erm what's the difference between a Skoda and an Essex girl? You can drive an Essex girl more than a hundred yards! Er Oh it's ! The side of shoes are all peeling, look, they're all cracking up. Oh well, I'm not surprised. You do, sort of, put them under wear and tear. I walk with them! Oh dear! I sprayed my hair! I hold my hair spray ! Designer wear hair! Cor! But did she tell you how she's gonna wear it? On her head! No! Good possibility! No, you've gotta try. There is rumours decisive rumours that she's gonna wear on it her head! She looked very nice today in Science! I was watching that film and thinking of her. I have to tell you. But when doesn't she look very nice? Oh true! She Can you imagine, Stuart asked her out! Can you imagine that! He's walked up to her and asked her out! So? He was a prat! So he can be a prat ! I spent six months too priming my time then It still didn't work ! it still didn't damn well work, too right! And then asked her out it orgasmo, or what, too! Yes! She's, well looking at her in P S E D and she looked so cute and adorable! Who? Helen. Oh, Jenny's not to bad either! And Georgina's not bad either! But Sarah Jane's, wow! Well! She's just darn right good looking! Yes! It's huge! What? Her bum. Who? Sarah 's. I don't think I've ever looked. It's a whopping great thing! just trying to lift it! Yeah. It's not that big ! You get it is,her bum as well! Oh dear! So I've basically gotta take one of those suit holders in tomorrow to school for my costume. Cos I'm not gonna go in and get it ruined. As,Lloyd Grossman would say it's quite novelty . Tony. I can't do that ! That's right. I can't say that. No you can't say that one without a . Erm damn! I've forgotten what I was gonna say! Ah, phone! Phone! Oh Miss might be communicating to us all. It's a Phone! sign! It's a sign! Aha! Mum's got it. It'll be for Alistare. Fifty P bet it'll be for him! Fifty P bet! Here we go! She's come upstairs. Has she? Yep! Fifty P bet? Fifty P bet! Oh Christ, it's for me! Who is it? How the fuck is, I do!who it is? Girl or boy? Oh what are talking about! Hello? Hi! What do you want? Alright, I'll have to. I've got little Andy sitting here! Who is it? It's . Go away! Yes, you were saying? Let me listen. We haven't got any. No, we didn't! I rang Danny and already checked so there isn't basically! That's crap! Is Jim there with you? Or is he at home? No! No! No, no, no! No, that's crap! We haven't got any. No! None at all. And Andy's still in the bedroom we getting me undressed! Forget about it Nick! Did you hear that ? Did you hear what he said? Oh well, basically well Mm! oh it's nothing of interest. Er Shut up! What ? Do what? Do what? Oh well, nothing of interest. Erm, no yo I've, er I've asked him at the parents' evening what he expected us to do for economics, right? And yo you're never gonna guess what he wants us to do for our final bit of course work? We have got to go and stand outside Marks and Spencers and ask questionnaires and we've gotta do the same in Wimbourne. Ridiculous or what! I think it's crap! I think it's pathetic! Er here! Er here ! I think it's ridiculous! We're never gonna get that done are we? Are you gonna go and stand outside Marks and Spencers and get arrested? For asking surveys? Oh God! I think it might be worthwhile actually so the school can come and bail us out! Urgh! God it's ridiculous! I mean will be arrested for kerb crawling! I mean, you can't do that sort of thing, surely! Oh well, I think it's ridiculous! As you can tell, I said, Andy's been drinking I think. I wouldn't know. Er, blackcurrant yeah, blackcurrant mate, I'm afraid. So I I was a bit stupid letting him on that sort of thing. We were this, just discussing the party here that we're having and we've now got twenty five guests you see. Guests? Twenty five! It should be a great doss up! Donna, Georgina, Sarah ,er er er Pa oh ah, I'm definitely meant to record that! Georgina, er, Helen, Jenny, Claire , Claire , Sarah Madeline, that lot. It should be a great doss up! Tell him there's about twenty So million girls, and two boys ! Pardon? Yeah, and you, Phil, that lot. Phil's gonna basically, when we've all had as you would know with all the other girls, then erm he basically has to come and sin erm, we repent to him, basically! Yes. Exactly! That's basically what we , er what's happening. Right! Anything else I can help you with? Oh, rightio! Yes. Please be on ta the professionals What? on are on now. When's what? Oh I don't know exactly. As soon as I can arrange a free couple of weeks away, yep. Cos I gotta get booze and food and all that stuff in. So, Andy's gonna hire a video camera to, to film er Stuart and Phil, and that stuff. So it should be a good laugh like a good old er, jolly jaunt! But we'll have to have a look. Right! I will let you go then. And I lost the bet by the way, cos I said to da , Andy, I bet you fifty P it was for my brother, and it wasn't. So Oh I'm rich! I'm going to kill you tomorrow! Right! Okay? Oh thank you! Oh don't go! So, I'll basically see you tomorrow. Okay. See you! Bye! Oh it was ! It was for me!! Well what do you want to talk about? Well there's not a great deal to talk about. As No. it goes. But you have to have, er it'll be good if you could find something for her. Well, we'll see er hardly think that I know any active Well you Admirals at the moment. Well not active, but you do go down to Portsmouth quite regularly don't you? Well yeah, I mean I might I can probably get more advice on the R A F or Army than, than the Navy. Can you find out for the Army for me? Mm mm mm. And Mm. Put it forward. Yes, probably. See what they can recommend. That is a serious option actually. Oh well, course it is! I know that. Recruit , there's a Mhm. erm there's two guys want to go in the Marines in mine anyway and so they're paying erm, A levels of fifteen hundred quid for one of them. Well He's getting paid fifteen hundred Yeah. quid A levels. Yeah, that's a good idea. And so, if I do that for the army and then get them to do my degree as well. Yes. So, you get fifteen hundred for going the Ar , er, doing A levels, which isn't bad is it? Nope. Have a with that. So, that's not too bad. That's right. And you have Erm are you going to look around the house again tomorrow? No. Are you going for a buy then? Well, probably will do. Can we go again? Er, if I go then you can go. Yeah. Don't see any reason why not. We could pop up this Saturday. No, I'm not going while is driving. Oh er Sammy. So, when they gonna sell he his, this week? Hang on! Oh I dunno. I do I haven't heard anything, I was supposed to ring them and find out. Oh God! Don't really understand why I haven't. They're playing around! No. Or they would have got back wouldn't they? By now. Well possibly. Have you filled in all th , did you hear telephoned back? The one you were supposed Sorry? did you call that number back? Oh, that wasn't anything. Who was it? It was just er Estate Agent, probably. Just an Estate Agent, yeah. Oh my God! I thought it was important! Nope. Shouldn't have bothered! Sorry? Said, I shouldn't have bothered. Anyway, I dropped, I rang his office and then erm Alistare rang me on the mo I think, I think if Alistare rang me they could tell me that er if I did, or I, no I got the message No you in yo , I got another message in the office, that's right. No, you got one from mum in the evening. No, a different, the next day. Oh! And I thought he came back again. Oh well, it's another part of the office then. Oh my God! Oh! But er, yes won't be long but er it's ridiculous! Well then, nothing's stopping you putting the damn thing on. It's not plugged in, there's not enough plug sockets. But you don't need the, you don't the plug in for the erm Heater. heater at the moment. Oh! True. Put it in that one. Is it a big, oh you quite often get messages on there. Yes. That's right. Oh yeah. Could be important. Madeline's offering Oh dear! mum advice about moving. Oh well that's well founded! She's never moved in in, what is it, thirty years? No, exactly! It's our fifth in ten years . I should imagine that went down well! Yeah! You could say that. She rang erm a le , did she tell so , did, mum tell you about the time she had erm some calls about two in the morning? Yeah. Imagine calling Maggie at six in the morning! I mean, Glenys at six in the morning. Exactly! I think they'd got another hour. Sh she's weird! Didn't i oh that cedar table needs re layering. One general well well I wouldn't worry about it yet, I don't think. You can't read Belgian though can you? Yeah. Oh, didn't know you could. Oh it's better than buying a new one isn't it? I would hope so. Oh, you're going through those! Do you have to ti , do you tick them off against your cheque book stubs? No , that's not what I'm doing, I just wanna see which erm which building society sorry, which erm not building society, which erm Bank? er what do they call them? Stadium? life assurance, erm Yes. loans erm is directed. Haven't you er, you got Alistare insured, and you haven't got me insured? Not true. It is true. It's not true. I'm not insured! Nor is Alistare. He is! Mum says he's insured. Not any more. Oh! Brilliant! So if I pop my clogs nobody get any. Dee doo doo doo . But erm oh damn! Stay there. Try not to talk too much. I don't know want you to have too much. Why can't I get rid of this thing for you? What thing? Save the accountants doing it. What things? Your cheques on the statements. Mm? Because it's dead easy! I know it is. So why don't I do it for you? Say cos the accountants, that's sort of fifty quid you've saved. He's not doing it. Well he does it doesn't he? I know. Do you do them? . He goes through and puts circles round everything and ticks off. Not at the moment, no. But we , cos I'll have to do it for you so , something interesting for me to do. When we get ourselves sorted again. I love doing that! Great fun! I used to be able quite regular. With the P C and B. Oh dear ! My friends are already applying for their summer jobs. Yeah? Yeah. James has applied to Macro. He'll probably get in as well, little, bloody sod! But, I'll have to see, yeah I'll have to g pop along to Liphook Actually, if we do that if you re do go back, well I can pop round the village can't I? Sort of if I go smartly dressed I can see if they've got anything. Well it's an idea. Gotta ring Phil actually,wha is it too late now? Dad? What? Is it too late to ring Phil? It's about my C, will I get my references. Oh don't do it now! Cos it's, I've gotta get th , ask if I can if they need a, explain er Well don't do it now! Oh well I'll, have to ring him tomorrow, it's very important! Can't forget that. Cos then we sort of, turn out, get a finger out and get a move on! And so, it doesn't look good if I don't bring the information in so I'd better hurry up with that. I've also gotta put my German onto tape tomorrow. Oh! I haven't got a microphone, what a shame, I can't! Mm. Ah dear! No, I can't do that. So erm that's German homework I can't do. Dear oh dear! Oh! Oh, oh! I'm Well that's probably doing too much work. Oh very funny! You're being sarcastic I take it? Oh, me ? Me? What, sarcastic? No I am aching actually, I don't know why. Ah! Well I don't know when these three, oh yes it is! Not good enough! Who cares! Don't do that! habit. Erm there's no reason why I can't go out with you on Friday is there? Where? To Liphook No. If you're going up that house on Friday afternoon. Pop up to London we could already Why am I going Friday afternoon? Just saying, just in case you do ! I can leave at the new Well I'm not going to am I? new house. Oh I've got my biology tomorrow. Aargh! Dum dum da! Should be doing about That is stupid! Ah ah! Aha! Found it? Erm Found it? I'm not really sure. Well it must say, la la la la Ah, two thousand eight, got it right! And that says, twenty seven from You're not gonna stop insuring yourself are you? No, no, no, no, no! Oh no! God! Increase the premiums. Twenty seven from the nine two thousand one eight. I still think it'd be good if my bike went walk about . Be a good way of doing it. Get it practically sawed up and that. Got plenty of friends who would be willing to saw it up. Nineteen, I don't think that's a very good idea at all! I do! Saying it's broken. I'll stretch you for it. Oh good! Why? Well, only really because of erm as mature, as policies mature before the er What do you mean they mature? You can collect them? Yeah. Before Are they pensions? No, no, no, no! They're, they're er and er life insurance against the mortgage. What? You borrow money Yeah. and then you use life insurance to pay it off. Oh fabulous! What? You mean, in other words, you won't have life insurance left. So money you've put into life insurance, goes? Well that's what the life insurance is for, to pay the house off. Oh! Put that against the value of the house. Oh, great! So So in other words the money from your life insurance will pay the mortgage? Yes. So we've not got that much hassle then? No, not yet. So well then, what you worrying about? I wasn't worried! Good! Glad to hear it! Now where was I? What happened to the grand throw out this year? I wasn't worried at all. Listen though if, we can't keep everything again! If we go through and chuck out all the grotty stuff. Like what? Well, wardrobes and stuff like that. Cos, we can get rid of these can't we? Sell these? No! That, this and that. No! But keep th , keep the Absolutely not! Don't see why not. Some of it's useful, I mean What and that thing? What? That can be chucked. Well, we need it, the amount of stuff at the moment, and get rid of it when we know what we're doing with that thing. Well we're gonna need two removal vans. Well if we have two removal vans, we have two removal vans! We didn't fit in the last one. We only just fitted. The company pays for it, I don't care! And that was squeezing it. But if the company pays for it I don't give a damn! Hadn't you better contact Pickfords. Well they'll do it, I'm sure one Cos er they might sort of book them up ahead or something. They'll do it in time. They're not moving much at the moment. Aren't they? Well obviously not. Oh yeah, true ! The housing market is hardly buoyant is it? So, in other words, you can push them down a bit. Did you get the er bit they saved on the stamp duty to buy the kitchen? It's possible. Does that mean yes? Oh good! Mum was so embarrassed! She didn't know how you got the chee , the nerve to do it! Disgraceful! If you don't ask, you don't get anything. Don't ask, you don't get! Exactly! But do you think they'll load the thing on the joints? Or We'll probably have to split it I would think. Oh excuse me ! But it shouldn't be too much should it? No. We eve , we can dig them up and fix them, really, there's real problem getting anybody in. So why have the three trees gotta come down? What three trees are they? Well those that are right next to the the ones growing up between the two bedrooms. Ah! Oh that, that one The big one. the big one? The big one on the back. Yeah. Oh tha , we need that anyway. Tha that one's actually another . Oh brilliant! Then we got one round the corner in the patio area. Oh no! Not that big one? Yeah. Oh! But it's right up against the house, it's gotta come down. tt. I bet next door are gonna get bitchy aren't they? Well possibly. Then we'll erm Why's it gotta come down? Does it have to? Oh th the erm the surveyor reckoned that that house next door Yeah. was built afterwards as a servant's house. Lovely! Too bad it doesn't come with the property. Yes. Why is it smaller, it's much smaller is it? Oh yeah it's smaller, but it's a nice er Is this the biggest one in the section? Er, well it's bi , I don't know. It must be pretty near it. Don't know. Don't really care! It's got the biggest garden in the area. I don't know, I don't really care! Not really. You can see that about five garden size. Well it's not really relevant. Well it's a property! He said it was a big one didn't they? Mm. Cos it's probably double the size of this one. Er it's, It's gotta be well it's ri , what do you reckon, four thousand square feet? No, no! Oh I can't work it out. I really can't afford It must be pretty close. So you don't need all this, surely? What do you need Alistare's report for? I'll keep the no, I just keep the stuff, that's er got sentimental value. Oh Christ! I'm gonna burn all of mine! No you're not! , I keep them it's such a waste! No you're not! Aha! Aha! So when are nan and granddad gonna come then? Oh it's Alistare's trust fund. Hang on a minute. Well I'm sure what's going in there. Are they gonna come and stay with us, sort of in December I dunno when they'll onwards? come. God you can tell that hadn't been open for a while! Oh Ss right! Struth! This never changes . It's just a copy anyway. Mm, course. What's the passport for? Is that an old one? My to , very first one. Oh God! Who's that? Peace An ugly looking son of a bitch! police, peace like man! It says . But this stuff needs brushing out once it's that supposed Mhm. to be quite simple to remove. I'll have to try something different. I thought it'd be nice if you get, the teachers I get on really well with a bottle of wine or something. We'll see! Cos there's only a few that I get on really well with. Well we'll see! It's,now. Probably more than that actually, and er well they are And the policy you are. ,no it's about four five probably. Oh what the heck! Oh well, I can't shift You almost got those doctors. What time is it, by the way please? You got a watch on? It is nine fifty two. Oh God! I better check my . Be a bit late. I would think so. Yeah. Pretty fancy though. Well I suppose we could use them. Mm mm! So Must still be in there somewhere. Well then mother knows more about these things than we do. What annoys me is that I know I saw the damn thing not too long ago! It must be in there then. God, I'm thirsty again! I've been thirsty all evening! Yeah, so said it was that spaghetti Bolognese that did it. Makes you thirsty. Mm. Well, it's probably Mm. it's probably that. Maybe it is a flu going around then. Well these all need to be well I mean quite often this stuff we can Throw? no, no, half of this stuff we can actually keep bi , or or leave, leave for them because it's actually relevant information. What leave them bills and everything? No I mean it's And guarantees? Well it's no damn good to us once we've moved, is it? Ooh God, they've had the house at a cheap rate anyway! They can damn well pay for these stuff if it breaks down! That's not the point! Just stop it! Are we taking the cooker with us or not? Not the cooker, no. So they get i ,we will work pay for all our appliances and stuff? Eh? Will work pay for all our appliances? Not all of them, no. Well a lot of , yeah? And water softener as well? All those big salt pebble things I have to fill up every week in the ? Well I guess we may get a we may get ourselves a waste disposable unit. Good! Get one of those we got in, particularly in favour of those. Does she like them? Stick some raw eggs and things down there. Get it chopped up. It's a great laugh! Mm. But we want one of those halogen jobs. What are they called? Hobs. They are nice! Mhm. Not a bad price either. What the halogen hobs? Mm. Oh you're joking! About five hundred. Not bad! You can't burn stuff on them either, can you? On the halogen ones, no. It's a Exactly! So that's a definite bonus! Well it wasn't, although they'd actually be going around burning ourselves anyway! I do, you know those frying pans that you bought, the frying pans and saucepans? An , you know the metal bit that's by the handle that's a really poor safety device! Poor? On the saucepans there's a metal rim sort of piece at the end of the handle Is there? that that touches the actual saucepan Yes. when you pick that up you put your thumb on it! I And I burnt myself so many times on that! Don't pick it up so close to the handle then! Yeah but it's Well that's the answer it's isn't it? Why am I difficult. missing missing some subtle point here. Are we leaving the washing machine, by the way? No! Well that absolutely, we've gotta get a new washing machine! Don't be stupid! We have, look, this one! It's only because it's not so not erm stable. Just adjust the feet slightly. If I had it on a solid floor, but it's gotta go, don't forget it's on a a wooden floor. Oh I suppose so. What you want is a so so , is a solid floor. Is it? Mhm. Oh right. Well that makes a difference, solid floor. Oh oh! Will you stand it, sort of the garage in your er best job of the afternoon? Won't be too bad. Well this, well I think it's a Hotpoint. Well no. Everything you buy is a Hotpoint! No it's not! There's nothing wrong with buying that. Well L E C are pretty good that's why we buy them! So, oh! The tapes nearly run out! Thank God! Only a bit more to go. Ooh it works! I bet I will get nice and fluffed out so that it I will keeping talking to this stupid machine! Oh God! But still oh er Why? They'll probably contact and they'll check every single doctor. Why is that? Then I'll I think it's disgraceful! We'll have to get the guy out from Sticks and Stones to do our fireplaces. Is it a real fire there, by the way? Well it's and in the bedroom. There's on in the bedrooms? Well, one of the bedrooms has got a fire. Now, let me guess, you're having that one? I dunno. They,na , nan and granddad may have that as a sitting room to start with. Oh! So we we have proper logs? Over there? It's possible. Brilliant! Roasting chestnuts! My God! Cooking crumpets! Yeah, yeah Marshmallows! yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah! Cor, it's ages since we've done that! Used to do it down there and we used to get stones that blew up and poinged everywhere! Aha. Ah, I love that! Yeah! Brilliant! So we'll have to have that cleaned as soon as we get there. Get a chimney sweep in. I think we'll have lots of things to do Richard. I suppose I could clean it really. I don't think so. Don't see why not. Cos it's a Might be a big fire. Is it a big fire? Is it? You've seen it. I can't remember. Which room is it in? Well there's a fire in the main room. Oh, and that's the ballroom, I think it's called dad, the ballroom. I don't think so! It's called the ballroom! Oh well that's what, yeah, they call it, I think it's hardly that. Well it's big! I know that, yeah. Big house! Well the house gotta . It's gotta be there somewhere so just let's and find it. Right! I'll look in my ro so that sort of thing she can look at in the morning. Oh God, I'm starving ! Oh! I thank God that . Oh I'll take Twiglets into school tomorrow. Mhm. Make a change. Get . Twiglets and er and the pasty. You have to get the done as well. Yes. Put, put that on the shelf though. Exactly! Mm. I don't think you'll ever get tha that to be done now. Yes I will. Not with the rigging, the rigging's had it! Well then, do, redo the rigging, that's not a problem. No, it's a bit difficult. Just a matter of It's a shame, it's a beautiful ship! Just a matter of finding the time! Did you buy it from ? Oh yeah. How much did it cost? Oh , can't remember now. Probably about sixty three isn't it? Oh easily! Easily! Shame! Lovely A shame , yup! Cos it's the solid ones . Yep! Yes. You'd have to repaint and stuff as well. Yeah, I know Find the I've got on some so much to do! on some . So much to do and so little time! We went to Parkside Reproductions your desk the maho , mahogany one. Oh God! Just can't be bothered about that yet Richard! No you said for the new office. Yes, I know . Oh dear! Let's go and watch the news. Alright. Ah! I saw what's his name today by the way. . And clobbered me again! Wanted to know if you'd said anything. Mum? I said anything? I mean, if I said anything to you. About what? Me me me mention yo , something in the newsletter. Wa wondered if you were gonna do anything. So, I said no, I'd mentioned it to you and talked about it. I think he must think we're complete idiots or something! I've got a temperature, by the way. Mum? Are you going to sit there and read the paper, or do nothing? I'm reading the paper! I wanted my cup of tea and I'm tired! Well you gonna, oh I've gotta bring a cup of tea in for you, have I now? Yeah. Oh right! I'll get up and get the damn thing shall I? Do you want me to do anything else while I'm up up and about? There we go! Anything else you'd like while I'm up? Scratch your back, or get the paper, or the get the post in, or take the dog for a walk or then, shall I? Richard, on the odd occasion you something for me Richard I ought to be a lot for you! Altogether I said , I can do tea. Well I'm not doing tea, Alistare can do it, he's been home all day! Alistare does something He's been home all day. No! He did Yes, he's been home all day I'm not doing it tonight! I've got things to do. Fabulous! He'll Yeah. I'll do it! Yeah! Don't see why you can't do it. Don't ask me to take that in again tomorrow, cos I can't! If I'm supposed to be doing it. Can you take it in tomorrow mum? I better take it back tomorrow hadn't I? Mum? I would have, you said she's calling here to pick it up er, isn't she? Yes. Four thirty. And you won't be home before four thirty will you? If you can take it in tomorrow I'll be much obliged! Nope! Sorry! Why can't you just leave it on? Did you ring the coach back? Yes, I did. We're here at Blackpool presumably? Gonna give Mel a ring tonight? Mum? Mum? Mum! Oi! Can I give Mel a ring tonight? Mum! Why not? Cos . . Oh flipping heck! You shut up as well dog! You miserable mutt! It's hardly difficult is it? Is it? Oi! Oh, they've won. How many of them did they get out, done? Mm? How many did they get them to, done? Three. Three? Yes . Pathetic! Hello! Have you done ? I got two other evenings to do at school now. What are they gonna do about surely you haven't forgotten? Mum. Got, parents' evening on the fifth and tenth to do. Helping out I guess. I think it's wo , it's worth for the school . I think I should get some work done, don't you? I must say it's that er Time's running short! Yes, I do know that! So tired . Dinner's almost ready now. He was upstairs when I came in tonight. Chee you cheeky boy? You cheeky boy? Gotta give Phil a ring tonight. You have been good! You're a cheeky boy! Ain't he stupid! Oh, ha ha! Wo! Almost fell off You dog! Ha ! What is he doing? What's this? He's gotta get along of the band, without touching them. Oh, one of those jobs! Why is wasting so much time? Why hasn't he put his fingers in between it? I thought that was a mistake then he made. Why the hell doesn't he do you get locked in with three? That is cruel! I'd say sod the crystal and just sort of take him out. He's not is he? Bit disastrous! What about baked beans? Or ? Oh we don't want baked beans! We always have baked beans. We don't always have baked beans Richard! Go on then! There's a tank in the paper beside you. God that's so stupid ! Yes you can. Too bright, I couldn't . Don't see why not. Oh! Oh! This is Debbie , oh this is, might be quite good I think I might go and watch this actually. Mum! What did you say? Might go and watch this film . Not bad. Look, so I've gotta remember my drama stuff tomorrow. Mum? Well you'll soon have it for yourself, I won't do it! I've gotta go and pa , to the shoes, polish the shoes, polish both pairs of shoes, in fact. Two pairs to do now. Get the thing out of the my trousers, the shirt Don't tell me about it, would you just do it! and I wear my denim jacket on top. You had better remember Richard not to er leave them th behind. But if I don't pick it up, cos if I don't take it in I'll in the morning. I know you want to take it in. Yes I know. And you'll, please make sure you bring every single thing back Richard! Stupid keys! There's a tank in the paper for sixty quid today. I heard you. Then why didn't I go, er I might ring up and see what it's like. No you won't! I don't want it thank you! Christ! I hate this advert! Oh it's can't stand it! He's pathetic as well! I'm not up Phil's this weekend. He's got a course until Sunday afternoon and I'll probably Sunday afternoon, I might even do that. It would be nice to do that, have a really good work session wouldn't it? Yeah, and I've got the weekend off aft , er that got ma Apparently doing anything else. Oh well it, I must admit . This German you ought to be doing, and you've got economics to do. Yeah. Great! I can't, haven't got the information. He didn't even give us the instructions, he wants it in in two weeks time! I've not been given any instructions! Well go and see him! He, got it tomorrow, but he won't tell us anything. It's ridiculous! This is a stupid advert as well! So we're missing lessons three, four, tomorrow. Mum? Right. Unfortunately, it's drama I've got . Oh I love that! Is that the Radio Times you've read? Anything interesting? Dad reckons we can get a second contract done within two weeks. Then you've gotta . I mean, he ca reckons we can have draft copies done. That's what he says I can erm tell my friends. Richard, wait till we've got a date fixed. No he said, take two weeks. No, to all, wait till we get a date fixed! I don't know. Oh I better go and check the sausages. Two gammon salads. Sodding well running after you! It's not fair! Perfectly fair . Ah shut up Richard! Oh! I'm still here! Oi! It's here mum! Oh look at that! Not bad is it? Not a bad little machine at all! Yeah, except the record battery light's flashing. It's supposed to. Is it? Oh! I'd imagine. Erm That light just stays on, look. So we basically have to now plan the . Another bloody packet of Polos! I'm addicted to them, you know! You are! You, just a bit! What do you do, sort of buy them in fifty packs at Sainsburys? Yeah. Every month. Why aren't you gonna get them from Macros, it's only one pound ninety for forty eight? No Macro. I got Macro got a Macro card. You've got one? Mm. Oh I'll go there the other day and see what's Do you want me to get no, I'll get you a packet of Polos, a box of Polos. Never guess where I got the shirt from will you ? Is this Macro's? Yeah. Have you got Macro cards? My dad ha , or did have. Mm. Ah! Cos I'll get you one. Oh, put it in the cupboard! Lock it in! Give me the key! What are you on about? Right! So basically have to plan who we're going to invite to this party. I think Donna should be the only one. Oh, Donna's coming. Donna and me, that's it. Donna's definite. I thought you could find some Copydex couldn't you? Sarah , Claire what do you reckon to her? Why her? I just don't If she comes, she doesn't get on well with Donna. Hey? She doesn't get on well with Donna. Well who does? Er Sarah ? She's a definite. She's gotta come. Yeah. Helen, definite. Jenny definitely. Claire definitely. Claire who? . Oh. Erm, Lisa wanna come, Donna want Lisa to come. Erm Who's Lisa? Oh it's one of Donna's friends. Erm Which one? Tony Paul . Is she that black haired one? Oh! No. No, no, not her. No Oh! she's got blonde hair. Erm who else? Dunno. Paul , you Aha. me, er er er Tony Josh Ja , Stuart? Wo oh oh oh! It's ! That will be , that'll be very choosy. Pardon? Je , you gotta put James Not that oh not, James is alright. He's alright. Andy , er James ? James ? Yeah. Why him? Cos he gets on well with other people. Claire ? Yeah but not with me! Claire ? Yeah. Er Sarah ? Why have a fe , oh why not give the whole school a knees up! We wanna get about twenty twenty five. Andy ? Oh , yeah! No , don't have him! I don't like him! Don't you? No. No, he's alright is Andy. He's not! He can be. To be perfectly honest, he is quite an embarrassment! Quite right. Yeah, I agree actually. Yeah, can be a pain in the arse! To be quite honest. Erm, yeah maybe not him. Madeleine ? Get on well with her. Erm Do you think she'll come? Yeah. You think she will? She's already said, how many bottles do you want me to bring? Oh right! So this will be the party of all parties! I've basically gotta pay someone to be be the bouncer for the day or for the evening. I'm not having these silly old sods turning up! This is gonna be a strictly invitation only. Will you have cocktails and that? No! Just have a load of booze. Load of booze! Load of girls! Then Oh ah, ah, we need a little room where I don't mean the toilet ! Anyway, you're a no that's the pavilion that's the pavilion so It's gonna be freezing! Gonna freeze out there! Sure you'll find some way to warm yourself up! Mm, yeah, I'm sure. So, basically, what you wanna do is get Donna drunk. As soon as she has Oh yeah! Yeah, right you got like me, Stuart I would James , I mean who else is gonna try and sedu Me ! I'm gonna be seducing her! Er Helen Jenny What , what we're doing, taking goes or something like that! Yeah. Time-share ! Good idea! Is that mum calling? Just a minute, I'll just go find my clo Mum! Mum, where's my bed clothes ? What on the bed! No, if we do that, that's a good idea! That's basically what we have to do. I'm not sure about James though, I mean No? No James ? Right! I'm not sure about him. Okay. We'll keep him out then. Cos we've basically gotta find people that people'll be happy with or that they know. So I know most of them, I get reasonably well with most of them. I'm not inviting anybody I don't like! Erm so Why are you inviting Martin and James? James who? . That's no , what the hell! Why, don't you like him? I really like him. But, you want You're not! I but I won't then. I'll just have one. James . Yes. Yeah, why him? I just thought, what the hell! I don't anybody absolutely rowdy and out of it if somebody's to be perfectly honest. I have to kept on a strict leash do I fucking Yes you do. So, you definitely, Murphy definitely, Tony definitely cos Tony and Paul get on well with all of them. Can Donna be easily offended? No. Good! Er Donna definitely, Helen definitely, Jenny definitely Are they da , easily offended? What Jenny and Helen? Mm. Mm mm mm mm, depends. Erm Well you know something that I could say Oh you won't! that Sarah definitely! Is she sensitive then? Oh I dunno ! No, I don't mean like that. Willing to find out ! I'm willing to find out! Ooh yes! But er, definitely, she has to come. Got a nice arse! Are you a buttock king? Oh yes! Very tasty, yes! Though, yeah, but she may think, oh well! But erm so she's got to, you're gonna make a list of people Is she she easily offended? No. She's quite friendly to talk to actually. Er, Eleanor Rebecca she's actually quite a party animal when she gets going! What do you want her for? She's quite a good laugh! She gets on well everyone. You want people who feel confident in a group. Aha! You want some you want some ringleaders who get on well, so you sort of bully them into things, which Donna is! Definitely! Oh she's ah, I can imagine her a bit bossy actually. She is bossy leader basically! Yes, I can imagine that. So we're just going to practise what we saw yesterday. I can imagine her with a whip, you know, ka! And getting to like it! Oh really! She's even better from a big Well she's a twenty pounder definitely. Certain definite. But you don't want to have people sort of splitting up into groups like you say, sort of standing around which will be a bit embarrassing. You want to get them in, see the drink, have a drink and basically get drinking. Ow! What was that? Look! Er, can you just sort of promise me something? What? That Donna isn't, won't come, arrive Yes. but I'm, after I'm there? Right. Well therefore, no other lads can have their way before me! Richard just, ooh ah! Well I don't believe you're gonna just do away with her! Unless she's completely drunk, blind drunk and I haven't already given her a good seeing to! I'm sure she will. So, to be perfectly honest I think er you're out of luck mate! Cos, I will be first in line! But what, I protest! I will be first! No! It's er, well This is it! I'm ju It's highly surprising! Just a minute. Never touch the And dad thinks it should be alright, no hassle! Mum's iffy, but she says with er Er , are they going to be there as well? No, Oh well! Oh come on! Going to Hoover! Bloody cramping our stu , they'll be a bit cramping our style wouldn't they? Come on! But,a , not your style Ri , yours perhaps, not mine! Oh well! I just carry on as normal! But, no definitely not. No,th I'm sending them up So when is this thing gonna be? Well if it, dad says two weeks now, so it could be next, not this Saturday coming, the Saturday after. Or it could be the Saturday Not the Saturday two days time? But the one No. next one after that? Yeah. Or it could be the Saturday after that one. I want you to do it as soon as possible! Yes, I should really. But erm it does become a problem. What about Sam? No! She's too Oh oh! much of a trout! She's too much of a what? Trout. Trout? Yeah. She's an old fish! Look at that, that's all my German! Mm mm, yeah. Bloody hell! What are they? That's all the German cards I put down all my vocabulary. Ah, but do you, do you actually learn them? Not yet. I haven't had time. Er, not yet! Haven't had time. You've had time to write that lot haven't you? So so basically, in a minute, have to sit down and write a list of who is going to come and who is not and what order. Now if you went out for a ferry, you'd have one of us guarding the stereo one person on that . Take all the ! If you take all these off you get a fre , two free pizzas but I'm not gonna That's what I've always wanted! but I'm not gonna get to use these you see. I'll take them then. It's ridiculous! Because you can't er, I can't really take it out. See, I get three small pizzas if I took all these off. Well go on then, I'll start taking them off for you. But I can't! You see she's collecting it at four thirty. Oh God! Oh! Oh, what are you gonna say me, relationship? He just exists! Friends. Someone I met! Yeah. I better fill in these actually. Er I need a thing. Oh Christ! Is it have you got a pen on you? No, no, no, oh God you're useless! In my coat pocket. Er, you got one in your coat pocket? Mm. Get it out then! I haven't got one. What about my pen in the coat pocket? So Sarah 's got to come! Why, you got Serious! the stimulator on her at the moment. Serious! Yes, yes! Wow! I just turn, I think I better tidy the room up that night. I think she's You don't her as well do you? Well it's Erm! er, well yes, definitely! You have to admit, she's better than a kick in the wot-nots! Right, so er tape, what day did I do this? Tape, tape two. So it leaves me Sarah, Helen, Jenny, and Donna are all gonna be being chased after by you? Yep! Lucky them! Ha! Ha! Lucky me! It's my party cos I'm gonna stand at the door and everybody has to give me a big french kiss when they come in the door! Apart from you! I don't mean you and the boys! Oh thank you very much! I mean the girls! I mean the girls! Good!. So erm basically jus They wouldn't have found out about me ! What time did I start doing this, er, tape? That one? Ah crumbs! Er about eleven A M. Er, in which town,Broadstone Er er er er er er er ma ma This is worth twenty five quid. Erm I've got I've got What were you doing during the conversations? Now that was wha , during the conversation sitting in a car On the back seat. Legs then through the window! in classroom . See, it's not bad, it's in a classroom. Right! Er, in the space provided please write your names and details, no there isn't any. Right! First name crumbs! Who was on that tape? That was the doc, so it was me, Phil Oh! I think was Michael No. ? No. Then it was mum. No! Get stuffed! They're not coming! Well, aren't they the life of the party ? Yeah, but if you don't invite them,tha , I'll talk to you about it in a minute. It's ridiculous! My mum sa , and then it was dad me. Occupation? Student. Occupation? Doctor teacher er, what's dad's? Mm mm. Director. Er, me, student. Age? Oh Christ! What is my age? Sixteen. Don't even know your age? Forty two Do you know your own, own name as well? forty two. What did I put dad down as being, age wise? Forty two as, I suppose. Ooh! Come on! He is actually. That is the truth. Forty two, sixteen. Sex? Male, male Yes please ! female male, male. Regional accent? Haven't a clue! Right! Dorset ! Friend. Who's that? Doctor. Mother Enemy! Father. Do you want a drink? It's alright. You sure? Yeah, I've got some. Well give us a yell if you want er if you want a drink or anything. Erm side two, have I just this side two? Yes I have. What's the date today? Thirteen, fifteen,sixt , twenty seventh. Twenty seventh of the second ninety two. What time did we start recording this? Now, this was about five P M Broadstone Oh er, what were doing during the conversation? What was I doing? Talking yo , talking to you. Am I in that? Yes, you're on it, moron! What have you written about me? Talking to pervert! To friend. Erm jus right! Me, Andy You Jane ! Yeah ! Occupation? Student. Are you writing about me? Yep! Student. Age? What's your age? Sixteen and sixteen, that's right. You're only two mo , two days older than me, or one day older. Sex? Er, not sure! Ba zed! Relationship? Friend, I think! Right. And that's, that what one's er basically doing pretty well know we're getting the near the end of that tape. This one, it's got one with Donna on that side. That's that stupid tape done! Oh God! What's this leaflet for? Oh no! Oh that's tapes fifteen to twenty, I mean ten to twenty. But, I haven't You got that far. How many tapes you gonna record? Three. Supposed to get twenty done but I'm not gonna get that many bu , cos I've been away you see and doing school. Ah! Right! Now, we've got a list to do. Just take it into school. No. No way! Why not? Cos I'm not daring! Now, basically we have to decide You mean, you mean the vocabulary will be too intense? Exactly! We basically have to decide Ooh! Sh! Do you have to do this for Sh! me! We basically have to decide who is gonna come, and who isn't. Do you think we should invite Stuart? I don't know. I'm not sure about him. What do you reckon? Oh he can be real quiet and actually one little thing I think he will be quiet. could make him go won't it? And I think he will be quiet cos he'll be embarrassed and all the girls will be there. I'll be embarrassed if I told Stuart to come ! Becau , well what do you reckon? I don't think he, I think he wo I dunno. Daniel will stare like a gormless goit! He does , I know! He with a door post! Would you go round a circulate and talk to girls? Oh, I expect I I'd be persuaded to do so. Well, do you think you would? Well, yeah, I suppose so. Depends who it was. Donna? Mm mm! No, you wouldn't! Helen? Helen? Helen, who? . Yeah, possibly. You blooming better not do! Alright! What are you asking She me for then! she's my property! Alright I'll le leave her alone then! Yeah, you damn well will! You can talk to erm Stuart! Thank you very much! Yeah. Well Georgina will be coming. Will she? Wanna make a mess? Ow! I'll kill you! Ah, get off! Erm so basically, well that's what we'll do. I do so Stuart , I don't think Stuart should. I don't think Danny should, will. Oh him as well! He's in half as well now, Helen. Is it? Oh I don't know. I reckon it is. Right! So Well name a person who doesn't fancy her. Difficult! ! ! And he's not coming, no way! Whisht! No way! No way! So, let's make a rough guide. Donna, Helen, Jenny who else? What? Georgina , Claire , Claire , Sarah Enough of her to go round! She's, damn right! She's Er only got ! I've lost the flipping names again! No need to . I will write it down ! Right! Oh ! Let's have a look. Right, erm who is it? What's her name? I've got Claire, no right! Donna, Er, er er er! Helen Mm, mm mm! You flipping get that off your mind for start! Jenny er, Georgina oh yes! Georgina, er, who else is there? Erm oh, don't know what's the name of her! Wacko-Jacko. Donna, Helen, Jenny, Georgina oh! Claire How many Claires are you having? How many times have you put Claire? What, she count as two people or something does she? Claire , Claire Oh her as well? Oh God! Sarah Sarah erm which other girls were we gonna er invite? Er, who else is there normally in her group? Not gonna invite Abby. Well I don't think she's time actually. Rebecca. Isn't, oh she is, now. Is she? Yeah. Rebecca erm Os what do you want her for? Because she's not gonna know anyone who's there is she? Yes! Cos she gets on well with a lot of those. Jessica she gets on well with Donna Oh my God! It's, why don't you invite the whole school, what the heck! Erm Costas we better invite cos he's a boy. Could you any more. I think it'll just you and me here! Yep! I like those odds! Right! What you should do is tag them when they come in. Yes! Where? Sarah No you can give them little stickers and say, hello, hi, my name's Donna! Stick it on her forehead,you know ! Sarah . Right! So you got Donna, Helen, Jenny, Georgina, Claire , Claire , Sarah , Rebecca , Jessica and Sarah . Why Jessica ? Cos she's a, good friends with Rebecca. Who else is there? We're actually flexible. Tony. I know it . I don't fancy him much, I got Yes, Yes , yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, maybe, yes, definitely! Right! Tony Ooh Tony! Wow! He's he's such a party isn't he? He gets on well with that lot. Paul Like who? You and Name one? Andy, Sarah . Who Tony? Yeah. Tony, Paul , Andy Do you want me go hire a video camera while I'm at it? Yeah, be a good laugh! I think it would be, yeah. I think it might be worthwhile actually. It's a good idea! How much is it to hire a video camera for us all? Can't be more than fifteen quid for a night. You have to pay for the tape don't you? Oh God! I'll pay for the tape. It's not a bad idea at all. Yeah, Rich!a video camera. Da da da da da, da, da get Donna rat-arsed! Yes! That No you're not allowed to use the camera when I'm busy! Now that's a word I want on the tape, rat-arsed! Good word! Erm It's brilliant! So Paul , Andy, who else is the boys, we've only got three boys, me That's enough! That's enough! four boys, erm Paul . , yep! ? Yep. James, the party animal ! No! Not James, that's right. ! Oh, get lost! No way! So Ste , er, not Steve Karen will certainly liven it up I think, she's a drunkard! Well we got six boys now, and two, four, six, eight Don't you think? ten. Two, just a minute, four eight, ten girls, and six boys. Er who else is there? That's four left over. If we can get we nee , can probably get another ten people yet. You don't want loads of people though. You want a reasonable size, so people get on well with each other. Who else is there? We well they're gonna know everyone aren't they? What about Kate ? What about her? Invite her? Well sh , does she know any of these people? Course she does! Tell yo , well I dunno do I? I mean Put her down as a poss. Erm you pu Enough. oh I suppose you pu , better put Stuart down. Oh no! And Danny down. It is gonna be so embarrassing! And down. Do you think you could keep away from me by the way? Yes I know. He is a not a Paul away from me. One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve, thirteen, fourteen, fifteen, sixteen, seventeen, eighteen, nineteen, twenty. Five more. No! Another five more. No we don't! Yeah you wa , we wi who ar , who other girls are there? Where are you gonna put all these people, like in the Downstairs in the main two rooms, and the kitchen. If we have alcoholic non alcoholic, fruit juices, mulled wine Love juices ! soup and salad ! What food can we get? What? Oh sorry, I thought You've been drinking again tonight haven't you? I have Well actually I've had a half a bottle of I don't know if you've but At a push. he thought he's drunk it all, but yeah ! Er who else is there? What are the girls, other, that we've always wanted to invite to a party and we haven't bothered before? Donna! Got Donna. Donna. Got Donna. She's the only one in the whole What about Sarah ? No, I bet she'd come actually. Very good friends. Yeah, she's more friendly with the rest of them int she? The other bou bunch. Mm. Yeah. What about Helen, as in the other Helen? Helen who? ? Oh yeah, she's alright. Do you reckon I should her down? Yeah. Yeah, she gets on alright with those. Helen is not coming! No way! Er What about Sadie? Oh get stuffed! Sam? No! I think she'd liven it up. I don't care! She's not coming and that's final! I I'll see her when she's sober cos she's ever so drunk! Er, who else is there? Does she bounce a lot? Ah, I don't, I know, she's a good yes well! She's alright. She's She's herself! so common! She's not all reserved then is she? I mean You only reserved she's gonna people! I'm not having people But wrecking the house, and that's final! Erm Not actually . Oh yeah. Er, who else is there? Erm I shall try and split my bodily structure. Who else is there? There must be some other girls. Who's in our science group? Go through the list of science group people. Costas , Sarah , Andrew Got her. Claire . Got her. Donna . Got her. Got her. Eleanor. Got her. Eleanor? Yeah. Oh alright then. Erm, who else is there? Judith, Cathy No. No. Mel. No. Sarah. No. There's one more, that's the once innit? Oh, I know , erm . No. No ! Definite that. No, definite. No, there's none there. Erm Claire, Kate, Rebecca, Helen Jenny, on that table Your planning where they're gonna be are you? No, I was thinking of history, what th , where they are in history. Erm so you've now got two, four, six, eight, ten, twelve, fourteen, sixteen, eighteen, twenty, twenty one so far. Four more. That's pushing it! Dad'll let twenty five I think. And everybody's gotta bring a present, so that's twenty five presents I get! Twenty four presents, that's not bad! And what sort of presents do you want? Yes! You know, like sort of translucent and About four foot, five foot tall, yeah. Erm Oh well, well don't worry! Who else is there? There's loads of oth , Georgina, have I got Georgina? I've got Georgina. Erm erm, erm Why was she dressed up today? Cos she was going to the panto thingy. I normally invite Sarah whatsaname,gro ,Sa Claire , er Claire Wha , aha. cos she's gonna want to bring Gary with her. Oh God! And I ain't having him round! Erm I've got, what other boys are there? Who else hangs in our, oh Phil, I'm not gonna invite Phil! He'll just say prayers in the corner,you know ! Do you reckon I should get Phil? He'll have the sinner box and everyone's gone upstairs and have their bit of nooky, they can all come down and confess to him! Yeah ! Do you reckon Phil? Dunno, invite who you like! Oh sod it! Put him down. Er ha It's like er, nobody dislikes ? Nobody dislikes him, but nobody knows him! Oh there you,you're safe then aren't you ? Right! Let's go through the list. Kate, she knows Donna doesn't she? Doesn't she? Ah? Kate, she knows Donna doesn't she? Well on fa front of Gavin 's file there are the words Donna loves Kate. Ah! Ka I thi I think they were ! Kate knows Helen, Kate knows Jenny, Kate knows Georgina Cla , knows Claire, Kate knows Claire too. Kate knows Sarah, Kate knows Rebecca, Kate knows Jessica, Kate knows Sarah, Jessica Kate knows Tony, Paul, you, me,,, yeah she knows everybody apart from Phil, probably. Nobody knows Phil ! Two Helens? Why have I got two Helens? Helens who? Helen and . and , right! Helen . Erm Th , we should make it fancy dress. Yeah! None at all! Great idea! At least you can turn up with a sheet. wilder or something. Er, ah ah! Let's just say, ah ca be ah bip bam boo! Erm Eh? Play strip bam boo. Oh! Er What else? Who else is there? I dunno. We need about three more. Who else hangs round in the corner. What, our corner? Yeah. Er er er er er er Glen! Oh not Glen! No! He's a good laugh! Nah, not Glen! He's a good laugh! Nah! Not Glen, not Simon Oh yeah! Not there's only about, there's only, so what, who else comes to our parties, er normally, our little ones? It's normally, you, me I've got, Tony I've got,And , er And me! Stuart I've got. Stuart's gonna so embarrassing! Ma Carl I've got. Who else is I mean Stuart is gonna be quiet or he's gonna be really loud ! He'll be quiet. In front of this lot he'll would If he's not drunk anyhow which he'll have no choice. We're gonna need loads of booze! And loads of food! I should say, if I, see if everybody put a pound towards it that's another twenty five quid. Aha. But you can't ask to put a pound really can you? Really? Where do you get, hire video cameras from? Holmans Ah, will they do, how will they ? Just borrow, hire one from Holmans I don't wanna go down to Wimbourne do I? Er Harris But and Nash I thought they do it at down the road. So that's twenty si I mean I'm skint at the moment I've I've I've hardly got any money money at the moment. Oh, it's not for a while anyway so you needn't worry. So that's that. Get all the details shall I? Or Yes. Because people act weird in front of video cameras. I hope so. I hope Donna acts weird in front of video cameras. I think acts really weird most of the time. Oh well! Hear her squeaking away on that She was very nice on the er, phone, I have to admit that's what I er she's On the phone, or on the bed, on the floor! On the floor, exactly ! Yes! Exactly! Erm On the table. So that's the people. Who answered the phone? She did. How did she answer it? Er er er hello! Oh well . She said it in her nice little voice, and I said hello, is Donna there please? And she said,speaking ! Ee ee ee ! That's right. Speaking ! At the studios you have a thing called pitching, there's a little pitcher Oh yeah! and you sound like Mickey Mouse, ha! Oh well there's Really embarrassing . well there's not much difference. I wonder what she sounds like when she's humping you? Er, I think she's . I think she's like . But who el , there's always other people! Who else? What other girls, dream girls would you like to invite? Really beautiful bombshells! Cos we're talking, this is gonna be one wild party! And I can't think of anybody. Or do you think that's enough? That's enough. Right! Well we'll do that, unless they suggest somebody else. Er, what to do. And if every , everybody brings a friend then you're looking at fifty people, and I'm not looking at fifty people, I'm looking at this lot. I'm not saying If they're all friends with each other they'll all bring each other won't they? Exactly! So that's basically twenty fiv ,pe , that's enough. Shall we do a little list on the computer, write it up? Oh yes! So I can sho Put them on the word processor, yes! So I can show Donna and see what she thinks of the list? She might find my titles good. Yes, we can wri , I'll put it in a minute when this tape's finished. It's only got about another As I said, Sam wo Sa Sam would be a good laugh. Tell you what, I'm gonna turn it off. Yeah, but she Should have seen her P S E, she was a laugh! Yeah, I know. She's was blooming yawning! Stuart was Yes. so he tried not to look but he's, you know And he's a well, I don't know. See I'm gonna use this as a exercise to prove what a charmer I am basically! Or what an idiot you are ! Well dad'll put afford a fair amount, and I'll have to put, afford a load of money. Do you think I should bring a video camera? If you can afford to get one, yeah. I don't think it'll get used. I'll sacrifice something to video. Not until we're drunk anyway. But, I've gotta get mum and dad out the house somehow. I shall try and arrange with Jean to get them that der , night. To go up her place for a dinner party or something. But, I was trying to think who knows ? If we can sort of get them out for a night or even if they get back at twelve. Yeah, what time do you reckon this party should go on till? At least eleven o'clock I should think. I was gonna say past eleven, Christ Andy! Well that's what I said er past eleven o'clock. I was gonna say twelve, what do you reckon? Twelve, half twelve? That'll be alright, yeah. Cos by the time, that's about long enough isn't it? What? You watch, eleven o'clock we'll all start to get really friendly with them And nearly time to go home! And it's time to go home, exactly! It's so damn sickening! And then they'll, they'll completely return to their normal way on Monday morning. Oh, it's a pain in the arse! So, if, if I put twenty five forward, or fifty forward and dad puts fifty forward that's a hundred, we can get a fair bit of food for a hundred quid couldn't we? Hundred quid! You could buy the shop for that much! Well for a hundred we can get a reasonable amount. A load! Well say you spent fifty quid on booze Yeah. you're looking at probably, you wanna get two twenty four packs, at least! I can't imanan ,a imagine Donna sort of putting away a six pack! Christ, she does! She drinks like a horse! I'm talking severe boozer! She's been out, I've seen her off her face! She's been off her face quite a lot actually. She likes being at parties and getting off her face! So er if we do that, we'll get two twenty four pack, they've got a load. I tell you what I will buy the minimum amount of drink, i.e. a twenty four pack and some wine, and do the mulled wine and everybody else can bring a bottle or some food. Do it that way. Say, it's basically, bring a bottle, or bring some grub. Right? Splendid! Do it that way. You know when you walk home, do you walk anywhere past Harris and Nash anywhere near it? No, but I can pop down there on Saturday. Well if you could, I mean, probably it's a further way out from where I live. I'll pop down Saturday. And how much for a basic video camera. Have a word is just a basic jobby. It's a, it's a little memento isn't it? We can do copies of. And sound. And I'm not gonna be any, in any of them! You will be ! Paul 's got one! What a video camera? Or his dad has. He's got a, a video. Oh! Nah! He won't let us borrow that! Why does wanna come ? And he ain't! is not gonna, I tell you that for a start! No way! You can just imagine at nine o'clock we've all gotta walk him home! I'd die! Have we got to walk any of the girls by any chance. Well it depends if they want to stay the night. I mean, some of them, if it's twelve o'clock they'll no , they'll say sod it and sleep the night! , just get Oh! Could you imagine, a pyjama party ! Yes! Knowing Stuart she's probably got a little hole down there and he can just flop it out ! Tights are on backwards to make sure ! Shall we do that? What? Ye , shall we have a pyjama party? Oh yeah, that'll be nice won't it? That'll be brilliant! Oh good!with nighties! Cor! Wow! No, but I can imagine that! Yeah ! Oh! Ooh! Probably share the same actually. Ooh I co , ooh I'm liking the idea of this more and more! Yes! Oh no! Ooh! Oh definitely! Mm! So Oh I shall look forward to this now! Yeah, it'll be a great laugh! So, that's what we'll have to do then. I'll have a word with Donna tomorrow see we , if she thinks it's a good idea The High Priestess! and make sure. Make her se , listen to her crystal ball and read the tea leaves. Exactly! See what she thinks. If she thinks it's a good idea, we will then have erm a word with I'll make sure it's okay with dad and mum first basically. We've you've planned all this well they better let And check to make sure cos they're gonna have an argument about it, I can see it! Dad will say yes and mum will say no! So Well , if they have pity on me, you know. Exactly! It's gotta, you've gotta have booze though. Mm. You cannot have an evening with no booze! But they don't like that do they? What? The booze. Who? Your dad and mum I meant. Oh dad won't, mum will. Dad will have no problem, but he'll say you can get lager and stuff no problem. He, there won't be any spirits, they'll say no spirits. They'll say, right you can have lager and you can have wine. But mu mum will say no to everything! So, basically they'll be an argument between he , him and mum. Who's gonna win. Er hopefully dad. So Yeah but who is going to win? Dad. I hope! And so, basically we'll open the main double doors downstairs so you can have people in the living room and in the sitting room. And you should have a list upstairs and we can quickly Nobody would dare go upstairs would they ? I will if Bridget will come. I will, if Donna's there! I'm wanna Donna and Sarah absolutely drunk and so erm, Helen as well. Why, that way. Taking all three upstairs and let them . Bloody hell! Before it's I'm gonna save the hot water for the next three weeks! Looks like we'll be having showers ! Should be a laugh! I think I'll get a clean getaway! True! Yes! Oh wow! Cos I'm clean on this one! I mean slightly, ah no this is gonna be a great laugh! Wo! Such a thing to do! So, if I have a word with, like I say, with Donna and see what she thinks, if it's a good idea. I will basically do that . So, that's what I'll do. Great! It's gonna be a great laugh! I think if we get everybody by ooh, ten thirty we can have sort of a game of strip Trivial Pursuit. And the only person we strip is Donna! That's right ! And Sarah ! Cor! Yeah! Mm. To look Yes! She is very tasty! Like ! Wow! Yes. Right, that's what we'll do! So, I'll get the booze from Macro cos they do reasonable value like, sort of the, twenty four pack for a tenner, so the er The other one down by Yeah. Tha tha that's Down towards Poole? Yeah. Yeah I know it. That big one. I've been in there. Yeah! There. Just do Ninti , oh they do Mas , Sega Master Systems for thirty two quid. Do they? Yeah. It's Oh! half price. Not, they don't include V A T in their prices. No, exactly. That is, that adds it up. And for . Yeah, it does actually, it makes it forty I'm sure if you look round you can get a lot of electrical goodies cheap, or just as cheap in other places. Yeah. Cos people still If you want a really place, there's a place in Bristol,Richersan they're de dirt cheap. Bristol? Bristol. Oh, my dad's getting ne , new cooker and stuff from. I wonder if they, they used to do Hi-fi Oh! and this sort of thing. They don't do that. Oh right. You can get a like, a similar one to this, perhaps not as good as this one but buy it for twenty quid nearly. Not bad! It's about that. Yeah, that's a nice one isn't it? No with twin cassette decks. Oh! Well that is just a crap jobby anyway! Dirty job, I don't like I, well it's alright. Nothing to argue about. God! How much further has this tape got to go? How much in that in your opinion. Made in Japan. Mine was made in Korea. How much is that your opinion to go? Well I dunno! I'll measure it. It looks, there's about sort of quarter of a millimetre to go. I think it's about five minutes isn't that right? Mhm. Oh what the hell! Keep talking and we'll go and print this stuff onto the computer, our little list of names. We're talking just for the sake of it aren't we? What? No not really! Oh that's left on! Oh! What's that, that's that's Foreigner isn't it? No. It's Brian Adams. Only wanted to play a while, wo! And he taught me to fly like a bird, wo oh oh! Baby! Thought I'd died and gone to heaven! You ain't gonna hide in there! But tonight I never had before, yeah ah yeah! Thought I'd died and gone to heaven ! I hope this is number one again. This is probably number one. This is brilliant! About five in the charts now. Number five? I think it's something like, five or six . Oh! That's quite right. It's a brilliant album! This is a brilliant song! make up the name. Yeah. You got the album? You did my brother's copy. My brother wanted a copy. What? My brother wanted a copy. Oh did we do a copy for him? Yeah. Oh that's alright then! I had it for about two weeks before I told him I'd got it! He had one. And why not? Oh, I'll take one box , there you are oh jolly good Use of none for epi epitaxial so it's tape one and tape two finished? Oh we're not doing badly Yeah, according to this it says Oh wow so we've finished the tape side B,on this page please write a detailed tape side A three er er oh three A three that's it there No, that is so specific now what's the date today? Dunno Twenty seventh? Yep Of the second ninety two,what time did you start recording this tape ? It was about seven o'clock in which town ? Broadstone, God I hate filling in these stupid forms. what are you doing ? Talking to a friend Then I talked to Andy ha, ha Mm talking to a friend I got these so Yeah Has it got a lot talking to Donna on the phone Donna? Yeah She's very nice on the phone very nice indeed student, age sixteen, they're sixteen, male and male, relationship This has got a microphone on it, but Yes I know, leave it off it makes a hell of a racket So does mine So if that's that, that's not bad, so yeah, so, so side three B now, so if we can get two and a half of three tapes done, cos then I can change the batteries and I get to keep, get a free pizza which isn't a bad thing Urgh can't stand pizzas have Italian to start with Oh I used to find that Stuart, and then I distinctly went off them, absolutely free pizza Stuart started off with pizza jokes this and one other Kodak battery good God you've got to take two of them, oh sod that ooh very nice, these cost quite a bit actually, it's three packets, ooh How much do you think a video camera actually cost then? Fifteen quid, no more, no less How would you you know? wanna borrow it for a night don't you? Er just the one day I put If you borrow the Friday night, if you put on the Friday night Yeah can take it back Saturday Why what's wrong with it? closed on the you close it Why? Just close it No you close it I don't want it closed Oh do close And There might be a fire Ha, well there's a window out there Oh yeah, it's two storeys up It's three storey drop , three storey actually How can it be three storey up? Because there's another storey down the bottom floor, because if you noticed there's a huge great patio there, unfortunately, so er, so it's eight thirty seven, say you're being picked up nine thirty Yeah, go on so we get another hour done, that's another hour of taping, so that's er one and a quarter tapes, sure you won't take it home? Take what home? Tape recorder No, why? three on this, do you want to take it to school tomorrow? I've already got a tape recorder haven't I? Do you want to take it to school tomorrow? Not if you're bringing it I mean I can give it to you to take it in tomorrow morning Why should I wanna bring it in? Cos you can sort of talk to people on the way up and record you in the car I'm not carrying that tape recorder around with you all day Richard Well you strap it to your side of you I mean, when I talk to someone I'm turning it off, right? Yeah fucking say There's no record of what I say to her you're turning sourpuss as well, ho, ho, ho, no I suppose not, she's coming to pick it up at four thirty, that's when I get my money which is very nice. I'm music room madness, that'll be interesting to record Mm hee, hee, hee and bit well I want some really good words in, like erm, spontaneous How you spell it? abruptly Spunky brouster yes of those words paddle, er I like the word paddle, you swim for it Yes, I'm sure you do ooh I bet you'd like some bacon with this wouldn't you? Yes I think, like some bacon with your ham? Erm Then there's a you should do our Julian Carey like we did before Oh great do his go to this party of Julian Carey Do your Grace Jones thingy I don't do Grace Jones I don't do anyone really your Roger Moore , do your Roger Moore Oh, oh this Bond man's tedious oh this is hard Not as hard as the maths exam paper Oh that's dead easy Oh yeah Oh, yawn, what do you reckon you'll get for maths? A Dunno A if I do well in the exam as I did last time round, yeah You jammy sod I know, good innit? that's fucking awful, I'm gonna get a C, er Stuart's not set to get anything is he? Big nought is not set to get passes in anything, do you know that? So he will go to school, unqualified, that is really sad cos he's done all the exams and everything English, how'd he do in English? Er D's and E's Er geography D below C, I don't think so No not C D, he'd not put it to C D that's complete rubbish no way does that, no I don't Dunno what about science C D actually I think say it, even if he gets C Ds, he's not be getting into college is he? He's a computer genius, but he's crap at everything else, geography he's useless at, economics he's useless at I'm aiming basically for, I'd be happy with four As, five As maybe is gonna get nine of them Well so are you Oh yeah I'd be very surprised if you don't get, if you get less than eight As No way am I going to get an A for English literature Oh no, nor am I, you'll get an A for design Maybe A for art That probably not Have you started your final art piece? Yeah What are you drawing? Er dunno at the moment really A bowl of fruit you're drawing Yeah, naked women actually Oh yeah, do you get, do you get to do that later on I know, ha, ha you can do that later on Ah, ah, I wonder if we'll be able to choose who the model is? Miss Oh god don't, er E E C butter mountain, oh that's sick, no thank you,oh god I'm tired , but, oh well, you'll get A for science as well A for German Not a chance You're very close last time for getting an A, in fact you did get an A didn't you? No In marks, what you get? A B Oh B, oh dear, oh god that's devastating, that was with no work Mm, mm I wish you wouldn't blooming try and kill the dog Sorry leave the poor sod alone it's fighting back Oh, this is boring what do we normally do? We're normally drinking aren't we, we're out somewhere, boogying the night So you've given up on the town park idea? Yeah, it's gonna cost me too much this is gonna cost me a hundred quid, a hundred quid and a party is a bloody lot of money if you look at it, to be perfectly honest, we need a D J D J? just to log the records on and watch them and sort of Put the C D in the C D player and press shut Yeah, that's what I do and play it and it'll just go on forever, and like my one just past the second song and it's stuck Have you checked it for hairs or anything? Yeah there's nothing wrong what C D are you using? New ones You've only got one C D haven't you? Got several What have you got, anything? anything good I mean? Not particularly Why? What are they? Why they're only like Aha you've got Aha on C D? Yeah When did you go and buy C Ds then? Eh? When did you go and buy those? You never spend your money I know and you got Aha on C D? Anything else? Oh usual sort of compilation job Wings of Love I've got Wings of Love, oh I like that Yes it's, it's sort of oh, oh, I'll borrow Wings of Love just the, just, just the first song on that is the one I recorded with Sam Oh god and the result was best play hear that song again, it really irritates me I'll borrow Wings of Love, bring it in tomorrow Oh I'll borrow that oh so, I think we're now, call it eighty five plus tapes, got loads over the wings of love Get out of me you poofter I'm trying to I'm tired I'm very tired, in fact I think I'll go to sleep, I've had enough Look I've had enough work today I've worked my nuts I bet you have that ho have you read that how's it done? How's it done, on where? It's very good, that big blue book Oh yeah that's a brilliant book Ooh, ooh alive book is it? Have you, not it's not, have you read Blop by the way as well? Yes I think Blop Yeah you've had Blop How's it done? There's some very good stuff on erm music in there, C D systems and stuff, and laser discs Where? If you look in the back, in the index, look up C D systems, laser discs and stuff and records, there's stuff on records in there, oh Records are really crude Yeah I know almost as crude as you and I think you'll find some are even cruder Yeah if she gets together, he Oh er she is Stuart's kind of person really I think I don't you see he's sort, he's so disgusting at times I know so that was the phone going twice now, it's disgusting oh, I've gotta get er what's it name, next week, next month, I can't remember what it's called, it's got Erica Hasslehoff, I mean Erica, tut in it anything of interest in it? oh, oh, oh there we go, oh yes oh, oh, er , hee, hee, hee, hee, make electronic and music Really? and that is quite a thing, ha What is? synthesizers and how they work Have you got a synthesizer? Mm So what is your Technic thing then? A graphic equalizer So basically posh one though does it do anything? What do you mean, it don't play demo tunes or anything Does it do anything? Yeah it's a graphic equalizer and it's got echo and things and rebo and things like that on it Mm you basically saving up for a complete system? More like oh the odd and soddy pieces, like a hundred and fifty why? Well it sounds pretty naff really So, you're gonna change the money from that into buying one ano a separate I don't know? a Technic separate Erm, but then you need an amplifier Yeah then the C D player and all Mm I won't make the best no, no way What anyway? No way What, they're industry standard they are No way, don't want one You've got everything else, but Yes, I agree the C D clip, the er, cassette player is amazing No, I like Sony, Sony are very good what are the What you digging around for you got some worm or some valium or something What does that machine do? Just load it, it's like, it's like, you use it like a normal tape recorder, you just use it like a tape recorder And that's it? Yeah, you can record on it and it does a C D sound, that sort of thing So you pay five hundred quid for a sort of normal Yeah but the sound quality thing is a lot better Oh you can't get better than C D sound can you? Oh, that's twice I don't know, don't make so much difference but I'm only a, sort of uneducated slob, but there you go oh god, it's boring A mate of vibration Yeah , we should go down to er the chippy Hold on get some chips, no I can't be sodded actu I don't like going down there, you get loads of dickheads F M synthesis What's that when it's at home? F M synthesis, synthesis is erm using sign language Really, oh god, no, oh slap my thigh Oh dear they've got their facts wrong here Why? F M synthesis is the basis of diastral synthesis of the nineteen ninety of the eighties actually Hmm Ha, ha, ha well it was a book that was produced a little while ago you can buy that tape deck off me if you like What? That one Why, what are you selling that one for? Eighty quid Eighty quid That's a forty quid profit on how much I paid for it I think I bought that for forty five quid or forty seven it does the job, it's not a bad little thing, mm, mm My one doesn't do the job Exactly you've got a why don't you save up for the Sony compact jobs? Down have you been down Parrots and Nash recently? Speakers are too small They've got a lot of money, a lot of savings on at the moment They all have these days but no one 's still buying them on a lot of systems, really now is the time for you to try and go and buy a new system, because you can knock them down immensely really good bargains the basic get off me you basically can say look here you sods, give me some money off, because they're desperate for people to buy oh what time is it? What time is it? What time is it?oh I dunno do I? what has happened to your watch? I haven't got it on have I? We've gotta go in in twelve minutes time to watch L A Law Oh no just for the music, surely for the music, can we get this thing up to L A Law? what the Sony? Yeah You get the wires to do it, well er I mean can you plug this, the speaker Well not really, no What do we do have you got a headphone socket on the erm T V, yeah Yeah a headphone socket Yeah you might be able to do it off that, you won't be able to listen to it at the same time Oh that's no problem and you have to be careful with the master volume, not to set it too high, oh let's have a look well you can't really do it on this one Well we can do it downstairs from the main system or something What bring the cassette deck up to the telly you mean? No do it downstairs Take the telly down what you mean take it out of the Use the main T V Yeah you've got wires across Oh yeah, you'll probably do it from the video actually Yeah and then is it stereo video? Yeah Yeah, do it onto the back into the back, certainly Do you wanna get, shall we go and have a look and see what we can do? We'll take the Walkman this downstairs with the video tape recorder, come on let's go You've gotta put the microphone in front of, by the speaker, although it doesn't come out very well Let's go well we can a little try,dom, bom, bom, bom, bom, bom, bom, bom, bom, bom, bom, bom, bom, bom, bom, bom, bom, bom, bom, bom, bom Shandy speak into the Walkman, you say hello go on growl at it that's it you say hello, go on that's it, good boy Richard What? did you use my postcard up? No, I never touched your postcards, am I supposed to of done? I had a little postcard and I can't find it Right, I'm just going to destroy this, now Andy what do we need to do? What do you mean going to destroy it? To record it? Yes What do you mean it, they're not Richard, there, there, that's no cos we're doing my, taping my, we're doing it onto a tape, music from L A Law, so what do we need to do? What are you talking about? We're taping the music from L A Law onto a tape Why? Because I want the music from L A Law we're not going to, we're Is the video recording at the same time? Well, it'll start probably, yes, nine o'clock, start, does Red Dwarf start at nine o'clock? You got headphones on it? Erm is there headphones on it? Er, ah Are you sure you've not had my card Richard? I can't find it anywhere here. Positive alright Red Dwarf let's look at the T V guide, starts what, what do we need, need to do it? You're the expert, Red Dwarf starts at nine o'clock yeah, so You need a long very long pair of wires Of what type? These type Er we should have some of those Can't, can't you video L L A Law or No because that's, we've got a video going in now at nine o'clock, er, a very long pair of wires erm so what do I need here? What do you need? Mm, oh sod it, I'll do it next week, next week's one It's easier just to video the thing Yeah, so I'll video it next week, I'll do it that way, oh there's I've got a terrific headache tomorrow, have I got a temperature? No I have actually ah, just a sec we will go away for the day if my pull up er a bean bag up with the record That brings back memories there's no knob on that Right, talk in the microphone while I'll go to the loo Why don't you take it in with you? Oh yeah, right oh if you get that on the tape I'll kill you Get what on that? You know damn well I can't, I can't get through the door, what's that? You have to go and ain't you? Oh it's a flush talk in that machine Why? Oh, you've got to I haven't Yes you have I haven't got to do anything anyone got a Polo if one's on offer One isn't on offer Why not? Aargh, it won't close How'd you know? Cos it won't so are you going to offer me a Polo? No Why not? You've already had some I only had one give me a Polo you Casualty thing's on tonight Nine thirty, oh I feel ill L A Law's on in a minute I don't want to watch that only watching the, the title I love the title music Oh it's American stuff that, I'm gonna play with the balls I think in the pocket On the shoe table, I love Polos Please clean that without I love Polos mm, I'll get you a box of forty eight when I'm next down at Macro's Forty eight? They're only one pound, ninety for forty eight packets, that the equivalent of ten, you only get fifteen packets for that price, or would you like me to get you a box of er Extra Strong Mints? Would you like the extra strong? What are they? Are they The white ones, the big white ones Alright cos they're only er two pounds or something or other for forty eight, Wrigley Spearmint Gum about one pound fifty oh, what's happened to his voice? Been there, been there Where is it? New York I've been there and all gross, New York is a gross city er well been to, oh dad uses one of those at work Sounds like Frank Bruno doesn't it? he loves his nose, he's stripped all the information, he's a stripper Oh there's a ball in the pocket so erm, yeah so I'll get you a you want to play snooker upstairs do it? Hope so yeah What time did you start it? Seven o'clock, seven thirty Well that means to me it's about eight o'clock I'll get there Ah juicy yeah basically see it's all confidential information, dad He said he is a very clever man what? What about gatecrashers? We're not gonna get any How'd you know? Because we'll have er people at the door Rugby Club, pay them both a tenner Put Stuart at the door, that'll keep him quiet, put a guard That's the way to do it actually, ring the Rugby Club Aha it's not Mr Branson it's Mr Branson, oh shit, shoot What's the matter with these things? he's very good do what? He went round Gatwick airport giving to people Who did? Richard Branson Why? I dunno do I? Did you get one? Oh I wasn't there at the time was I? Oh But you'll do your own Well Richard Branson's very, very, very stupid I beg your pardon it's good innit? Who? Me He's, he, he offers fantastic prices Who does? Branson dad flies with him regularly Hey Shh it does actually happen that's a seven four seven er he's a good guy, did you see my dad on T V? No Yeah he was on B B C Two. What was it? A defence thing but er, yeah dad was on T V You shouldn't do this, this is unfair reporting why can't you realize to leave him alone mate. All, all companies are con companies Get out of my filofax, I put you did last time Got Donna's number in You can't even spell her name, I think she's going to be deeply insulted with that, to spell her name wrong I don't see why not Alright, I'll bring, I'll have to bring my Wings of Love one you know Yeah play it when you're in a good mood, cos songs like that you yes tonight is bad I think Daniel should come I've invited Danny You have? Yes of course Well in that case I don't think you should So you don't want to come then? No way Close that one Which one is it? It's, er, ah Maiden thingy What is? Maiden Voyager Flown er? I've been on that plane, I have been on that plane what? You've got about five yeah you see the desert is a bit, the way, the planes in the desert in America, there's over three in the, sort of billion dollars' worth of planes all brand new , that companies can't afford to buy any more and they're all mane in a sitting desert oh there we go, aha, aha, there we go Ah it's too easy Oh dad flies Virgin quite often, he likes Virgin First time was it? What? It was his first time was it? Ah ha ha bom bom bom bom bom bom bom bom bom bom bom And there if I can keep that keep the memento of that wall going, it'll eventually get eventually yes but I can't, so it won't go Yes suitcases bom bom bom bom bom face it, I hate flying I don't mind flying, it's the crashing I don't like, haven't done it often Aargh learning to be ladies, ooh oh jolly good show I like the music to this ah, bom bom bom bom bom bom bom They put fluorescent material on that stuff you know, so when you wash it the material sticks to the clothes Yeah, right and in the sunlight it'll glue Yeah get it whiter than white yeah alright it's true Yeah I agree, ah look at that doggy that's three four, forty, forty oh it's turning oh there we go who me? Why? Me? What do you mean? That's why, that's why the Hook, there again the Hook, that's where I'm moving to, Hook aargh, well that's nice, nice and comfy now oh yeah, right, thirty, thirty, forty Oh yeah, go on right you ready? L A Law music coming up, hey look at this, this is weird, oh look, look, look at this weird shh, this is it, shh, do not play oh dear Shh yeah she's guilty, she's a woman right here we go, shh, gotta get the sound up, urgh it's beautiful this is what I'm gonna do in ten years time it's brilliant You have to admit that is brilliant, Steve has done some fabulous series in his time, but of course, but he's, he's pretty damn good, there's no doubt about it so er, it's not bad at all , I like it. yeah, we could for Daniel, Pass No if I had a video camera do you think anyone would dare to do that? No, no my God if I have my way, no one will have theirs don't you dare What's that kid that a big geezer last time Like, like who? Dunno Who with? ow, you're fingering my balls Gorbachov, not him the other one him No no a gospel singer Three for one ooh, that was close,too close for comfort Oh that perfect position, my snooker's not that bad as well Oh good shot yes Ah? What? What you shut them for? Cos you can't do that Cor, why? Now think of something to do Think of something What would you like to do? Apart from the obvious, not with you of course, but Ah, afraid there's no answer to that, er bom bom bom bom there's no answer to that is there? Repeatedly, always quite remarkable oh well this is so boring atone, ah, you can take that down with drugs Who? you boil the skin of cane toads and smoke it, it, it's the equivalent of cannabis Heard about that, who actually goes and boils toads? No, from exactly yep what about the this is basically what I'm gonna be doing What? I'm gonna be a top London lawyer No, them big poofy wigs don't they? Earning a lot of money Oh all those kids are sort of young they are young America's got really artificial aren't they? Oh God go on get that one down, get the blue down she's a dirty little slag be easier recently Yeah I knew you wouldn't use it very much I said yeah Oh, what's the matter? My eyes are hurting Why? do you wanna open the window and get some fresh air I know I'm breathing Richard it's why they hurt? What do you mean they're aching, are they aching or sharp pains or dull pains? Are you gonna pass out or what? Go to sleep I think Yeah, same here actually aargh Go on see if you can get them I dunno how you do this though, how'd you get the ball to jump? You make the ball jump and I'll break your face I think I'll break yours first Oh good shot I wasn't actually, I was going oh try and get it between the if it's worth trying to hit anything I was on top of him Good shot it weren't the right one you don't watch this rubbish do you? No, let's watch the news, see if John Cole's on his glasses are awful aren't they? I think they're the wrong size actually, I think they're a size too big Yeah, I think they're about four sizes too big actually Ah Yes what's the news? Everything is higher and about the worse in prediction, do you remember last time you got That's not bad good the Welsh get taxed the hardest, I hate the Welsh they might not like you either down with the Welsh, down with the Welsh, down oh coming were the Oh I like your pack What pack's that? wonder er, I've got Brian Cord, I can't stand him, I hate oh crap down very handy, yes I have to admit I do feel like my done that in biology Is that? Yeah I know yes cub like that with a stick, I know a job about that a blind man coming, a blind man was walking down the pavement with a stick, so on the side of the pavement there's this dog turd Oh we did this in R E, do you remember? Yeah, and he, he's blind, he can't see and he walks round it, and he goes I bet he drinks Carling Black Label gets up and walks off Yeah I bet the turd does as well We tried to do that in R E, do you remember? Yeah and it was useless yeah tangle with it it was so crap It was weren't it? It was crap, oh the Conservatives are a better breed of men Yeah, Neil Kinnock I suppose had, got a lot done hadn't he? Well yeah, they're a better breed of men yeah, exactly oh yo ee, bonnie Scot, bastard Urgh leave it alone How much longer is there on that tape? Andy Sorry? how much is left on that er tape? Not much. In your opinion, oh look at that beautiful shot Has the pause button fallen off here or something? Why? The pause button seems to be there isn't a pause button Oh Ministry of Defence mm Quite nice little machine that isn't it? As they go, it's not bad at all Dirty recording So we can't have much left can we there? No there's not much at all. So talk about this party The party, well what about the party? What would you like to talk about, about the party? My God Christ Two weeks blooming heck, British Airways and K L M Why not? No way K L M is a pretty big you know Seven four seven hundred, seven four seven mm He's a grumpy old git He is, dad knows him, he's a grumpy old fart he's very Margaret Thatcher's lover, that's why he's got that job, hmm Well it is isn't it? I mean Now Andy, he gets a nice two hundred and fifty thousand a year, he does do a lot of work for it though What a sick interview Now that is a seven four, seven four hundred I've been on one of those What a four hundred? Yeah Lucky sod, and that is a seven four seven Seven four seven that's a seven Five five seven and that is Seven three Yeah, there's a jumbo in the background, two jumbos oh lovely Who the driving instructor was shot was he? Shit lovely, he's a pain in the arm good don't like him pain in the arse oh dear as ever Oh yeah Oh this'll go down well dad's going back to Russia, Russia did that what about the French farmers? Ah They not there? burn our land no they're not land is the pit, he won't be brought about stupid yeah, you jolly will as well, as Red Dwarf, see if you like it What about it? It's on Sorry? Do you wanna watch it? Not particularly, if you wanna watch it, I don't mind I'm not bothered Alright So about the party right, what were we talking about? Oh God The party, what's gonna happen? Have we got an agenda of events like seven o'clock Donna arrives, seven thirty she's drunk, eight o'clock she's up here, eight fifteen she's with me twice, eight seven You gonna play snooker are you? eight forty five she cues you up I don't trust you with that ball, hmm or you er, quarter to eleven Stuart has a go yes, that sounds fun Half past ten I come Yes eleven o'clock we all go home Good idea So it's next Saturday then? No, it's not it won't be next Saturday, it'll be Saturday after next Saturday So it's not Saturday, like in two days' time? No Not, the next one, but the next one after that Next one after that It's two weeks Yeah Oh it's only two weeks Andy, but it goes quite quickly It won't go quick enough, but so ah ah ah I wish you'd stop that poor dog he's gonna get very objectionable How these people gonna get to this party? Just turn up on their own, or get, come by car or something I can imagine an early busload arriving Yeah we've got a busload here sir, they'll probably turn up in a cab and ask you to pay for it Bloody well won't I'm sure they'll succeed oh we've still got Friday tomorrow haven't we? I let you start a bit early I'd like it earlier, but I'm not going to does it look a helicopter? Yeah a Oh it's blown off, ah yes, you beauty You didn't know that? No aha yeah aha, beauty oh it's Casualty next, ah da, da, da, da, da da, da, da yeah , they have to call it is that what they started to call it? yeah Oh Hmm oh hmm cor dear good evening yeah I'm glad to hear, oh John bloody Prescott, fat git oh sod that, yuck, puke, oh wobbles Oh it's all mm all wobbly oh dear Oh yeah not bad there is your, suddenly it must be nine thirty is the back on? Mm Back on? Let's go and have a look at the, in case anybody over the road's after it What How long have you got that tape recorder for? Until tomorrow night, why? Oh it's tape, you have it, conceal in your pocket and have the microphone tucked in your shirt pocket innit? Right That's what tape Stuart Oh that's a possibility yeah, try that, oh I've got a headache, I feel really sick actually I have to admit, oh dear Is that recording? Yeah Make a lot of noise Yeah it is, it's a terribly loud recorder,you never close your eyes any more Wave out the window when you kiss your lips, there's no tenderness in the way, with your finger tips Those buttons are funny aren't they? Just wonder what the hell he's playing at He's kerb crawling isn't he? What's he playing at? He's trying his brakes out, oh, actually sounds quite good in this corner, what is, it's quite intermittent in this corner Oh alright get the sound affects up here really quickly Your jolly hard to show it he's not that would amuse every one wouldn't it? No I don't think so to be perfectly honest I think he, he should be there I don't know he'll be probably not invite him, I think he'll Exactly Truth is he'll bring all the booze the other time didn't he? Oh he only brings a little bit, I brought loads last time, even though you didn't get a song played Didn't I? Oh shoot, oh damn You've broken it That's it, me go and break mum's crystal thing, no, er The Crystal Maze din, din, that was on tonight I know What time do you get back in tonight? About six Oh God I've been waiting, I was told to ring about seven, cos you wouldn't be in till then ring Sandra or not Was she there tonight? No, it's alright I can get her some time again I didn't think she would be She's been away for the last week or so Keep away from you I'm not surprised she doesn't trust you, oh God, done it again I think I'm more at risk than she is Oh what from? Hmm speed at the window, yeah You've got a sore throat haven't you? Oh I feel ill, oh dear oh dear, I'm beginning, I'm just beginning, hello who is that? Who's that going out there? Who's that then? Who's that then maths? German teacher, have you got any German homework? Who is it? Who is it? Who is it? Who is it? And who is it? I don't know do I? Something, done a robbery at nine thirty two precisely, a lady did er actually walk out of next door's house Your honour your honour, carrying one large bag, looking very guilty and shady Probably cos I couldn't see her Ha, ha, ha, so er she happened to wear a sort of a striped top or something isn't she? A swag bag, swag bag er, er, er, er, er, er I bet Stuart turns up in his leather jacket Yeah He'll probably put like studs on it, you know Yeah he will What, you wanna turn up looking smart Smart? than looking cas What's wrong with that? Nothing That's alright, I'll turn up like this then Smart and cas, cos you've got a small body for, haven't you? You're only a two foot imp, cos er unlike me as a man being six foot and looking like a man and being like a man I think being's not the word I use for that so erm a funny shape you've commented on that every sodding time you've No I haven't You have No I haven't, no I haven't, do you know this voice has got very low lately Low? Yeah in the it's of You think it's actually breaking? Just sounds more like, get out, get off, now your highness, get off get off, reckon his voice'd break? No I , I just reckon his vocal cords will slow down, competition of the high pitch vibrations, you know hello punters I know I'm strangely drawn to Stuart You are aren't you? You are, we've noticed that and we're getting worried Anyone who's drawn to Stuart they must be strange It is, yeah I have to admit we're a bit worried about you Andy Yeah you open yourself to comments from now, you've got yourself a name, er from 's sodding fault Oh yeah he reckons he held it around, he's a real pain in the arse at times You seen the way he does it, he just sits there Yeah yeah, right, I mean you should let him come I mean he'll sit in the corner, you, you know, he'll take the Mick out of you, you can guarantee it, I mean he's Yeah, he does Well it's my job usually Exactly, I don't, I don't know whether I'll invite Don't, don't have then No I don't think I will because he will sit there sort of, might, when he rang up once, right, my mum said I think there's a poofter on the phone So how would you know? God knows Said, I think he's just farted, why do you know that? I can smell semen Oh, please, can we erase that joke? Well you should have it on record should you? You prat Please ignore that joke it was a very rude joke Oh it's quite good actually Oh God Andy, you moron prat I must try that one tomorrow I'll have to go and wipe that now Ooh er I'll have to go and wipe it exactly, you prat, you are a chief moron, how do you do that? to make it So what do you think Donna will wear? Nothing if I had my way What, you want something to sort of take off don't you? A negligee Me and Ron here don't like negligence no we don't like fe any form of underwear we don't like scandals either, no we don't like casual that's quite good oh when you going? I need my shower, tut, and my hair's gonna I stick I beg your pardon? When I wake up tomorrow morning my hair will be in a mess, I'll have to wash it again, in the morning Why not just do it in the morning? Because, I suppose I could do that, no I think of that, you wouldn't catch me doing that in the morning Exactly washing I mean, washing my hair that is Yes I have trouble to get out of bed, let alone anything like that yeah, imagine what, hey do you, do you reckon I should ask her if she wants to stay at Steven I'm sure, I, I, I, I've a fatal inkling that she might decline, but there's no harm in trying, but she might get the wrong idea about it, you know Oh no she might think that, you know, she's the only one who's gonna turn up and Well anyway Sarah and that lot can sleep downstairs, we'll all come down during the night Wake and we'll wake up find that we've got no respect Never had anything else love it Eh, oh, ow Could walk to the door frame, well done oh God, it will be a good laugh, it will be Oh maybe I'll pick you up at ten o'clock they might be picking you up, at ten o'clock My Rolf Harris impression Yeah come where the jocks are strapping, come where the feet are clapping me come where the hands are clapping, come where the feet are strapping, come where the jocks are strapping oh yeah I think I'll ask So this party is definitely gonna go ahead? Yeah, I hope so, I get permission from dad I have to write it in my important portfolio Oh yeah you're absolutely booked up, I have to, I'm sorry I forgot you have such a taxing social life with Stuart yeah definitely, er people listening to this could get the wrong idea I think but this is, this is normal conversation No, no this is a normal conversation It is normal totally normal a pervert and me Yeah, oh thank you That's alright, that's what I'm here for This, this is totally normal conversation, I've never got this done if Wendy had turned up, I'm glad, cos we've now got, a tape and a bit done tonight Oh wow which is brilliant din, din, din, we should give it to Phil for his dad Praise, and praise a lot, I bet, I bet his erm, his erm Sunday seminar thing, yeah they're not, erm Seminar What you call them? Service Congregation , congregation, it's not sort of all sort of these people sat there a disco or something don't they? Yeah Hey, yeah, groovy,the purple lights are flashing Get to the beat, yeah Get to the beat of the bible Aha, here comes a car, there goes a car, vroom, Renault da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da have you said to your dad get Sky yet? Oh I about that, mm the thing is they're gonna put, they're gonna put, from the Sky to the televisions they're gonna put a satellite dish on the roof Yeah how embarrassing So how embarrassing True get loads of new programmes Oh yeah, like what? Rolf Harris Oh great Rolf Harris Worth the extra worth the extra sort of four hundred pounds isn't it? Out the Oh Rolf Harris for two days, the kiddies' channel Oh you, I'm tired May as well have the morning chat show with Frank Bough Oh yes, because he got chucked off er B B C T V, some morning he used to do it with Selina Scott And he has the, the er Frank Bough health joke presented with Frank cough oh yes Er the er, the insult show, presented by Frank off reach the climax very well did it? Where is your phones? I suppose it's getting more than one tape done now There's one, there's one , there's one Do they argue? Leave it on when you're in bed and see what noises you make Sneeze and snore probably Probably going hmm hmm I do a lot of sleeptalking actually Eh? Yeah, I sleeptalk a lot a lot, a lot Who do you talk to? I just talk to myself and I talk out, in aloud and what every Sort of go, the economy, the economy Yeah that's right and nightmares about the economy actually getting better Ha ha ha, you are a socialist scum I know You scum of the earth de, de, de, de, de, de, de, de you should only have that attitude if you come from a deprived childhood I am deprived and you, if you have parents who I'm deprived of Yeah I can guess, Stuart oh God Andy What? I think there's a name for you Eh? I think there's a name for you What? Freddy Mercury I want to break me Yes, right, you, you sound like erm Michael Jackson you even smell like Michael Jackson Put me in the fire, you know Melt yeah Melt, even near a radiator He sort of catches fire, yeah, self combustion, I think you must of said ten o'clock did you say ten o'clock? Oh I got a C D with erm Love and Kisses on it Love and kisses just thought you know, Stuart might be on the T V if we'd done it , for the rest of us we've got people like Donna to watch and so, be like serving Donna up and if you look like Danii Minogue on the television for Stuart Yeah you can do that I'd be chatting to have you got Helen and Jenny all night have you got any Danii Minogue posters? No Oh To think they have to be talking to me because I'm the host of the party, so I've got to go around and talk to everybody Oh yeah, yes, you get, what, lots to happen, everyone goes in and it's like a ring around the room,you know hmm Yeah there's sort of get backs against the wall you know, here comes Stuart and I basically go round the bottles filling up Filling the bottles up I presume Yeah and I get, I get Oh God as long I, as long that's all that's right, yep, oh I think that'll be very good for, aha bah, bah, bah, bah, bam No, that's not you them Norwegians who? Aha They're not actually Where they from then? Scotland Upon Thyme Scotland nee No, they are, how you doing with your geography coursework? I've done the second lesson of it Oh, I've done I've done the second question The second question? Mm Christ you're taking your time Yes I've done the first diagram, graphic enhancement Oh mine are graphic enhanced as well which is equal main, you know, well for me they are these bar graphs are like three D you know Oh it's good if you can do the three D, it looks It's a waste of time and effort innit? No, it's nice cos it's a lot for presentation as well I know, but the thing is you can tart it up afterwards Yeah if you've got time Exactly, that's what I'm doing, I'm doing it that way, I'm doing the basics, which will get the marks and I'm doing, going back and adding extra little sods when I've finished it oh God People are walking out here, I don't know why No neither do I, just trying to wear holes in the carpet or something are we? Er, keeping my legs in practice Oh right, two weekends' time, so I'll talk I can't wait so I'll be sitting talking to Donna, cos Donna, Helen and Jenny be sitting in one group with Sarah , they'll be chatting away and I'll be sitting in the middle, sitting on that is what's gonna happen, that little lot, posy little girlies are gonna together little girly chat aren't they? Sitting on, on Yeah they've got something in common if they sort of, they say, what they say? Oh drat yeah no Quick snigger and look at somebody and look away and go Exactly, yeah you've got it right yeah that'll probably, that's, that will happen, I wouldn't be surprised Aren't you gonna be, with two people there, you could have a ring round the room though could you? Yeah we're gonna have about twenty five people there I think, twenty five's enough what we gonna do about sitting down what cos there's not enough seats sit on each other, I'm sure we could find space Move the dining room table out and stuff That'll be popular, that, I mean she's gonna be so popular ain't it? Yeah, too damn right Hey who does like? Er Sarah Does he? Yeah Hmm not half, I think everybody likes Sarah actually she's predicted all As do you know that? Who? Sarah So She's very intelligent, very good How do you know? I think it must be all Sarahs or what else or something, all Sarahs are registered as very intelligent Oh she ain't actually got all As then? because she's got all predicted As How do you know? Because I saw her predicted grade card Did you saw mine, but Yeah, predicted grade card I'm talking about oh where is, did you say ten o'clock? Don't know what it is, well the thing is she's gone Well my mum has gone to photography or something Photography? Yeah Was no, not like that Oh don't , oh shut up, I mean No why, what she gone to er photography lessons or something? Mm Ah He thinks What camera she using? I dunno, some poshy thing Is it hers or? Yeah Oh, do you go and buy it or something or what? Yeah, she didn't Oh very nice Gone , got all little things that stick up the end you know Very nice telephoto job you know Very nice, yeah we've got that on dad's, aha there's a car is your dad home tonight? Er, yeah Ah, oh, oh there's a change,you're lucky, he used to be home talking to Sue oh excuse me you wanna break free black and a little pink cardigan Oh shut up, don't, please What's wrong with that? I need to go I've gotta see her Well if I keep you away from going into the shower, it'd be like extended foreplay won't it? Very funny Andy, very funny, yeah Mm yeah I, not so, yeah well I suppose so, it'll be nice though, it should be a good laugh being how people in the back garden talking and the lights in the back garden She's gonna be February possibly March Probably March and if get them my key up getting my key up with heaters, getting my key up with heaters we can have it at your place if your parents go Oh yeah, right, oh yeah where we gonna put like three hundred people? Squeeze them in sure we'll find somewhere for them to go, vacate, so long as I get a kiss from everybody apart from the boys and kiss from all the other oh, er, I'm ecstatic really Kiss from Stuart No that'll be no it's better than alcoholic innit? Oh right but, well I'll have to have a word with Donna tomorrow and see what she thinks, hard luck You mean you've arranged all this? Yeah I think it at my place actually Yeah I might do eventually, I'm not going to bother to do it tonight, I'll pop off early I could wordprocess it for you Well go on then you get the stand Eh? you take the stand tomorrow, tonight Take the stand, I'll wordprocess it for you good idea Now what comics can I bring round? Don't bring any comics, I'll show Donna that one piece of What one? don't put the comics, put the surname as well go and get it from my room, take the information out of the little envelope you must of said ten o'clock to your parents, cos there ain't no sign of them, is there? Have you got it? Did you take the information out of it? Where's the lights? There Er, no oh Christ, dazzle me sometimes I forget That's a bright light innit? It is innit, turn it off again Aren't you gonna read it? You've got it all Right There you go now what can I say about, is Kate going? What? Is Kate going? Katie, yes Oh my gawld, I can't, I can't read it You know all the people there I can write, you know you've given them middle names, you know, that suitable middle names Donna very attractive I've the whole page up Yes Helen Yeah, oh, Toni, we'll put like lots of dots and say no comment Yes poor , maybe worth one, one day Mm kind of weird isn't he? Stuart Urgh that's a comment and a half I think another page for him there Yes What's that say? There comes so motor bikers Daniel , what's that say? Don, Dan Dan Alright okay erm oh Miss calls him Danny now Danny Dan, Dan Oh Danny the bighead in the world Danny stop us now, Danny the fondler, Yes yes I was thinking about your fritters this morning Fridged ferret Helen is she coming? Yeah, oh hold on I get on alright with her What? Do they get on alright with her? Yeah they get on alright with her I think, everyone gets on alright with her actually I don't Phillip, oh well yes, Phillip yeah Put that down, I see, I show dad the list and see what he thinks Yeah, but if you just know any of the people, I mean Yeah, exactly, it's just number-wise he's worrying about Mm Twenty, twenty five isn't er We can't read half of these, I mean, why is it Donna's at the top of the list? She's not, Kate is Oh I mean, I think you put her on first actually Yeah I did, oh I'll put Kerry on later She's alright because Donna is high in admir admiration in fact I Admiration? I admire I think it's called infatuation infatuation oh I can't think of it, I can't think of a without being disgusting or any Something tasteful, because she's gonna be reading that tomorrow Is she? So will Helen and so will Jenny I do snazzy formal er up, one who's been invited to one's birthday party Mo, one who's been invited to one's I keep imagining she turns up with her mum and she's holding her hand it says, now make sure she doesn't rip her tights No we will We won't, no I thought we'd relieve her of them Yeah we'll take them off just, take them off now dearie, you won't get them ripped them, yeah too damn right, you must of said ten o'clock, Geoff I can't think of enough comments about enough people, I mean what do I say about Phillip? Saint Phillip Yeah saint Phillip, yeah, put him there Why do you want this now? No you take it home That's alright No, never you still Jessica and Re Re , Rebecca Yeah write them down Mm, I'm not sure about them you'll have the headmaster turning up say I recognize everyone here I'm joining in the party Yeah he probably would as well wouldn't he ? Ho ho ho, ah God can you imagine that, Christ, aha here comes a car, there goes a car we are now in a country lane, looking out on the odd passing car bom, bom, bom, bom, bom I don't know about Jessica and Rebecca actually I don't think so Right then, cross them out Okay Taken two out we're always gonna get people who are additionally at school tomorrow who you'll remember suddenly Like who? Oh you'll fi we'll think of somebody Christopher jock strap and Jane Oh get stuffed, no way, no, no way Les the lesbian No, get lost Can you image him turning up, he'd follow me round everywhere wouldn't he ? Yes, he would do Did you hear about my sixteen bit distal unless his signified computer unless he's now following you everywhere Yeah I know, I think it's the glasses he can actually see me now or something You think it's a bit worrying? And he's following you Yeah I know I wouldn't be seen dead with him Tony, toe nail, Tony the toe nail yeah go on call it a got a date for everyone, so I wacko, Jacko, Jackson, hmm Oh yeah, wacko I think that's insulting knowing it, he's, anyone who knows Donald I think I should insult them So The fairy godmother, Donna the fairy godmother Er you want to annoy Donna just go like that to her Why? Cos she does it and whenever she talks in drama she goes like that and so I go up and goes cooee, hello Donna, who, who A bit like this? Yeah, that's right Billy Connolly, excellent she stands there going who, who, exactly, got it in one, we've nearly done a second tape tonight now, did you know that? Nearly a second tape Somebody's gonna get a surprise when they hear that Probably especially if we take it into German tomorrow Yeah play it in German on a, on a loud speaker Oh great Yeah so everybody hears, Who else we got on here? Cricket No, I'll check with dad before I start telling everybody to make sure it can go ahead Right you got that? Okay Donna knows about it don't she? Yeah Donna does, but nobody else does, so don't go yelling it tomorrow at school, keep quiet Do you think we really should have Stuart? Yes, he's a mate anyway, so, he'll behave himself in front of all the girls anyway He'll be, he'll be quiet for the first few hours, he won't sort, say anything, then he he will, you know what he's like Yeah, but everybody else will be happy then, by then, hopefully He'll probably go after Helen, hello, you know If he goes after Helen he'll be out So he is on the streets if he makes a pass on Helen Oh well, I think well Phillip did, Phillip you know, you can, you can harm on him, harm, harm on him could you? I could, can you imagine Phillip making a pass at someone, ah embarrassing Hello, would you like me to buy sweets? Yeah so he'll say Like a suck of one of my sweets No I don't take sweets from strangers, oh God a vicar he'll come and give everybody prayer books and a sort of a sing-song The Gideons bible That's right, he'll go on the Gideons club, we ought to have a bible meeting all sixteen of us I dunno you , like there's twenty of us all completely drunk you know Yeah Arthur turns up the school goes, they go hey, peace man, they all go and they They can give us a prayer man Yeah they say right Oh no, that's what's gonna do it What? Stuart's gonna be quiet all afternoon and all evening until his dad turns up Yeah give us a prayer man Desmond Oh God, oh yes, it would be a bit of a disaster Quite definitely but it would be a good, aha here comes a car, ah Andy I think this is your mum if it's trundling along at max nought point nought, aha it could be, it could be, it is, it will be, it is It is, it is No Yes No it's not, oh Oh Oh that's no good well that's no damn good Hmm, thought that was them Obviously not, quite remarkable Quite remarkable that, oh, are you on there by any chance? Of course I'm on there Oh my sodding party I don't, you actually there, you know Yeah it'll be nice because I'll be centre of attention cos everybody'll be wanting to talk to me Why? Cos I'll be, it's my party, so you have to be nice to me, cos it's my party basically, cos I consider it Do I have to cover the video camera? No, don't I think I should I mean No that would definitely make it more interesting, if it, a talking point for everyone won't it? I don't think it'll work Cos people play up to them and do things if perhaps they might not, wouldn't, you know, but would want to do it, but Yeah and then Helen and Jenny will be shy as hell, aha That song's written nineteen eighty four and released in November nineteen eighty five. There we go. right. How long have you been living in the flats for? Yeah how long is it, since you came to live in Flats, how many years ago. Remember you were telling me. About fifteen. About fifteen years ago. You remember that's right. Yeah. So erm where had you lived before? What other place did you live before you came to to ? Oh dear I forget now duck. I remember you telling me you came to from the Republic of Ireland. I was in terraced houses. Yeah. Terraced houses . was in ? Eh? Was that when when you lived in the republic of Ireland? Yeah. Erm No I haven't been in Ireland duck. over here. I've been over here since sixteen. Yeah so what happened before you were sixteen up to sixteen you lived in I in the Republic. When was it were you born were you born You were born in the Republic of Ireland. Pardon? You born in the Republic of Ireland? Er Oh I was born in Ireland . Yeah. Yeah. And you stayed in Ireland until what age, until you were? Oh I was c come come for a holiday. And I'd aunties over here Mhm. So I come over here Yeah. and I went and then I come over tak g got jobs you know, in hotels. Mhm. Yes. And how Yeah. And but when did you get hold of your new f when you got the jobs in the hotels,was that when you first came across here? Yeah. Yeah. And how was your memories you know, from when you actually lived in Ireland, up until when you were sixteen, what are your memories of there? Of you er you mean of Do you mean of over here? Of there, No, before you came across, before you came across to England. When you lived in the republic of Ireland. We my suggestion is they're as bad as English people now. they have took h home from England. England and Ireland is nearly whatsername, is that any good? So did you t did you like it in Ireland, I mean, did did you like it when you lived in the Republic of Ireland or did Did you like living there? Well we didn't get much pa pay. You didn't? When we come home hol holiday, Yes. and then we wrote home to mam that we'd found a job, and that were it. Mhm. Where did you work, whereabouts did you work? At . Have you lived in different parts of England? Yeah. I lived in different parts duck. What other p what other parts? So you've not only lived in Nottingham. . Er how long did you live in London? Quite a while or Oh quite a while love. Mhm. I was working in hotels. Mhm. So how long did you I married t I married to the whatsername baby. Yeah. . And did you w er when did you actually get married, how many years ago was it you got married? Oh How old were you w how old were you when you get married were you? Twe twenty. You were twenty. And how how many kids did you have? Two. Just two. Just two b two by the men two two of them own. Mhm. Er one is up er I'm no good at thinking of names. Up by that school round the corner. Mm. You know the one, the one that's up . Mhm. They've got good jobs. Mhm. What jobs have they got? Er well they're responsible for all writing. They go round to the the place where they work, er they go there to know if they've done the job properly. Yeah. And then they come back in, and they're doing all the writing. Mhm. You know what I mean? Yeah. They're doing pen work. Good jobs good money . Mhm. So do you see them often? Pardon? Do you ma do you manage to see them often? Er well I've seen me s er the son down here on Saturdays. Mhm. Bringing the children with him and And where is it where does he live? Not far from here. I'm trying to tell you duck. It takes about ten minutes in the car. I forget the name duck. Mhm. It's not far. What what job did your husband have? Oh he was in a big er whatsername, in town. A big building. I never go into anything duck. All I know is he's got a good Your husband like your husband, when your husband was living? What about your husband? Oh he he had his own You mean my husband? Yes before yeah before he passed away. He was buying and selling. Got his own car own van and had one or two working for him . Mhm. Mhm. And er you st see he had like this Mhm. and every now and again he had to take off er he had to come off poorly. Mhm. And in the end it died. It was shrapnel they call it. Yes. Took shrapnel in his arm. . God fo when he when he died, I nearly dies and all. I tried to go away.. So how do you you know,you lived in the flats for fifteen years. Yeah. How how how has it actually erm varied I mean, is the s is it the same are the flats the same as when you first moved in or have they changed ? No far from it duck. What was it like when you first moved in? When I first moved in, they were nice people. Yeah. When I say nice people, people that well you know what's come from all the different countries, from out there. Can I I can't mention names can I? I can't mention names How's it Yeah. So what was it like when you fir when you saying when you first came h here. It was you liked it didn't you, you liked it here when you first came. Yeah they were all nice people. Mhm. They never took causing bothers and all s that. So wh what was it In what way do you know, I mean is it the About the flats themselves, I mean are they are they the same, or have they gone What about the flats are they are they any different to w when you first came here ? You mean you mean about repairs and things ? Yeah that kind of thing I mean how was that wen you first Yeah well they were all right when we first come in but eventually Mhm. th quite a lot wanted seeing to. And then they used to leave it and let us wait and this that and the other you know. But eventually they had them done. Mhm. . Did you f did you feel did you feel safe living in the flats now? Do you feel safe? Or not I mean, do you feel do you think you have to lock a door, or I I don't You don't think No. Did you when you first came in? I was alright when I first came in because I'm under the doctor under the h hospital at the moment. Mhm. And you're frightened of every little thing. That happens. And they do happen and all. Yeah, what kinds of things happen that you know, that make you feel unhappy? Well by yourself to open the door. Once once I opened the door and I were knocked back and all me rent and . How long ago was that? Er that's qui it was quite a while ago, but it happened . Mhm. Yeah. we had that that kind of thing. Going into wh where there's only one person. And you know who was doing it. Mhm. mention names. You can't mention names can you? So when it happens what happened when it happ When that happened to you, what did you do? reported it and they send him out the flats. Did y did it happen did when when it happened to you when this happened to you, when you had things stolen from you. Someone came to the door. So what who did you go to? Did you get any help? Yes I got help. Yes. Who? It was it still happened. To you? It still happened to other people and all. Especially old people. Old people. Not people that could that can defend themselves that can what's the name of it if they could Well they've broken old people's doors in and took their money and and hit them and whatsername . Mhm. Do you so you see yourself the fact that you're living here on your own, in the in the flats, makes you feel more vulnerable. feel more vulnerable living in here on your own? You mean frightened? Yeah I think yeah. Yes yes. they take them in and that's it. Mhm. got all these . Do you think Yeah. Do you think it's do you think what do you think of the flats to live you know, as a senior citizen, do you think it's suitable for senior citizens to live in the flats? Do you think it's a good place for senior citizens to live, these flats? Yes. If they didn't take the wrong people in at the end. If they didn't? Take the wrong people in the the whatsername. Mhm. So what kind of people live here that we what's what's made it go you you said that it's got one of the s what are the kind of things that go on now, that wo didn't go on before? Well tried to go across the road and get get a bit of shopping. Well in the evening they can't do do that now. They've got to stop behind the doors. They're frightened to death. bus stops going to get off. Aye they're from up town. Drunk. Does that happen Have you had that a few times is it? Aye. first I took out didn't I. Even when you go out at the daytime . on they're own. Mm. How many t I mean er how many times has have you have you had have you had have you had problems with people you know when you told me about w that incident when someone came to the door and took your r took your rent off you? Yeah. Has it has it happened other times as well or Oh two or three times. What's happened? Same What's happened on the two or three times? Well they go ferreting around don't they. They come in your house? They get in. Where they get the keys from, I don't know. Yeah. Oh experience duck. See there was part of it you've got er you've got to have somebody with you. They they change everything over don't they, they they don't do this and they don't do that. I had a dog. And my doctor my doctor said, You can't have the dog you need because you're sick on and off all the time. And it'll make you worse. And I had a cat. That was told to go out. You see what you're what you're up against. Mhm. So do you know when you do you know when you erm I mean lived in the flats in the flats for fifteen years, have you managed to make many friends? Well as time went on Yes. These people come in and it was alright and after a little while, it was the old old story. Yeah. I said, Well why'd they do it. I've got no make make people unhappy and whatsername, break in and take the take your food and everything. You know what I mean. So that's happened has it? Oh aye. Up the top and all. Yeah. So what is it did you used to have more f er was it okay at first I mean you used to have quite a few friends when you first move in? Yeah. And yet now sort of like now I've got no friends now. Is that because those people have moved out or what was the reason ? They mo they moved out. Mhm. They moved out. cos I don't I he I don't think he has owt to do with anybody that knocks on his door. Mhm. Do your family ever visit you here? Come come to the flats occasion. Yeah. What do they think of the flats, do they ever say much? got a council house, they're still paying for it. Yeah. What do they think of these flats? Well i er my son said they were alright. When I was over there at Walk. Yeah. But er the way they were carrying on, just lately. You're i you get in your bed and you don't know what's gonna happen next time. You're frightened to go to sleep. You are. You know when you when you first came in the flats, Yeah. did you get things like milk delivered? Was milk delivered Yeah I took me whatsername. Took out the things. for over there. Was it getting pinched? Aye it were getting pinched off of me cupboard's outside the door. That was getting pinched. Mhm. So that that just stopped did it in the end. It was I had to go and get it up across the road. Yeah. I've had some hard times mhm. So has it got er would you say it's got has it Got worse? got worse you say? Oh yeah. Yes. You don't know who you're talking to. Some of the women's just as bad. What do you mean in what s when you say, You don't know who you're talking to, yeah have you s what what what sense do you mean that? What do you mean by . Then three weeks ago it was a Mhm. another ten pounds pinched out of me purse. When did how did that happen? Ten pound. Yeah. How did it happen. Is that outside or In. They were in. People just ca er There there was supposed to . Mhm. Of course I've had to get . And then I went in me purse, and the ten pounds was gone out of it. One one of was white and the other was coloured. Ten pound. How do you sp y how do you you know erm a typical day you know each day, how do you spe I mean, what time to get up normally in the morning? sometimes I don't sleep. Mhm. I'm lying there frightened to death and then I'm worn out . Now I wa woke up at five o'clock this morning. Mhm. And I'd a breath of fresh air. Yeah. Before see going to work. And them that's been drinking and that and didn't come b back Mhm. to their own flats. You you might meet up with some of them. Mhm. What kinds of things do you do during the day? What kind of things do you How do you spend your day? Normally? I know just now when I came in just now you were doing some housework. Yeah. You were sweeping the floor. And do y And do you spend quite a bit of time d on housework or n Yeah. But now I have Yes. a home help come in . Yes. A home help come in. How often does s does er the home help come in? She comes in Mondays and Fridays. Mhm. Mondays and Fridays. So do you find that does that help you quite a bit or Er Oh yeah. I'm going down the steps three weeks ago, and er one of them front me, the other behind me but how I tripped up I don't know. I I tripped up and fell down at the side . And I came against the wall. Can you see how me hand is? Mhm. And me shoulder. Went up at the doctor's Mhm. the hospital twice and they said, There's nowt we can do, it's got to make it right itself. Well now this was quite a while. It's still badly, I can't lift it up. I can't do anything with it. So you I mean you well how did you what kind of erm food wh I mean do you where do you get your loc I mean where do your food from? I know you you were telling me you you were applying for erm to get meals on wheels, but you ha that hasn't come through yet. Yeah. So what are you doing? What do you do for meals? I get them across the road but there they're dear. Oh dear. where do you go. Across the road, down the steps, Yeah. And that green door cos I can't walk too far. So you just go Yeah. And what kind of what kind of things do you eat? I mean what kind of food do you buy to Er chops, Yeah. potatoes, cabbage, peas, carrots Do you normally get tinned do you get tinned veg or do you or do you buy the erm Sometimes I go to the neighbours to open some tinned stuff for me. Yeah. . I miss them all. Mhm. Do you normally have Do you have much for breakfast normally or not? What do you do for breakfast? I have a cereal. Just some cereal. Cereal milk and me boiled egg. Mhm. Do you ever go in the market? Well no er Indoor market Here? Yeah here . Yeah they come they come once a week don't they? Do you go there eve ever . No I you see would be badl I've got to have somebody with me. Yeah. Because too many people around, it makes me go like this, and I Yeah. fall down. Yeah. I noticed. Yeah. Do you do anything what do you do on a Sunday? Do you have a special meal on Sunday? Do you do anything special on a Sunday or do you eat the same kind of things as you eat a normal day? Well I've got a swe I have a sweet. You have a sweet on a Sunday? Yeah. You know that tinned stuff. You get a ti so you get the tinned sponges you mean? Yeah. Yeah. And er I have chicken. And I get beef You know it varies Yes. varies. Do you get like do you get the the the chicken, do you get a chicken portion or Er I I get portions sometimes. Yeah. And er If you get a small little chickens you can make them do two days Oh you mean the the s the smalls yeah. The sm the small ones. Mhm. And do you get those where do you get those from? I get them o over the road. Just over the road. Butcher's over the road. Yeah. Do you have well what about a at at erm dinner time. You know l you know, lunch? Do have you have do you do you eat much then or Do you mean for me tea? No no you you you told me about what your tea is. dinner you know in between. There's there's breakfast then there's lunchtime, then there's evening meals. when I was in that nearly a fortnight. I I used to have sh cereal. Yeah. And . Yeah. Where did you go away for a fortnight to? See I I forget where the name of the place is. But I used to live there. the edge of Nottingham somewhere. Who took you there? Who was it who took you there? They took me in a car. Wh wh who took you there. Er it all come through . Social this is social services? Yeah took me in to er build me up. To build you up. Yeah. And when you ca yeah so that was How long ago was that? Was that Oh not too long ago. And so how. What so what kind of things do you eat now. you you told us that you had quite a lot meat and veg and things. Do you have very much to eat at lunch time, in between I mean you tend to eat erm take the take your big meal at lunch time or at night? Er. Tea time. I have it at dinner time duck. dinner time? Yeah. And then what what do you have at tea time? Do you have very much at tea time or No I don't have too much at tea time. Er I'm not a big eater. Mhm. How do you find it erm find like getting by financially on the money that you've got. I mean how do you do you I mean Well only barely duck. Barely. You've got your your rent. Mhm. You've got your insurance. The so it that the insurance is that for the erm is it er is is the insurance for the in ca in case of theft is that is that is that the insurance you're talking about ? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.. Mm. Oh dear. So is that And what about the electricity bills how do you ? They're they're the whatsername So I'm sending a couple of pound until it's paid up. In an envelope. This is for what? For for me what was it you asked me? Yeah you were saying about you said you said about erm the insurance, you were saying about that and what you were saying about your electricity. Yeah. A little while ago it come too much for me cos I'd got a lot to pay. The electricity this is? Yeah this is. Yeah. So I send I'll send a bit each w week fortnight when I get all my money. I'll pay the bill that way. Mhm. What do you do for things like clothes? . You have do you I can't afford to buy new clothes. I'll go in the shop over there Yeah. that and one or two things I took with me.. So you I mean do you so do you do you go to jumble sales at all or ? Er I'll go across the road duck somebody comes with me. Yeah you go I buy g some good clothes there second hand. Is that at erm at a local shop or or at or at the er church jumble sale do you mean. The church jumble sale whatsernames. What d what do you do erm Christmas and Easter? Holidays such as that. I mean what do you do normally on those days. Do you normally stay here or do you go away? I go to me son's. You go to your son's? Yeah. Is your son family? Yeah. What about erm do you ever get any holidays at all?holiday Flats. That that was a holiday that Yeah the one that you had a see my daughter my my daughter in law's a terribly ill woman, she she's got a ki a ki last year, she was terrible with her kidney. Mhm. She was in the hospital a long while. My son had to stop off of work to see to the t two children. And when the time come, they got her a new kidney, and it never took. That's a year ago. Then they started again, they started to give her another they did, and the same thing happened. It never took. They're supposed to take you know. He had to stop off of work. To look after the children. Mhm. How do f what do you think of the cos you know for you know Speaking as a senior citizen, do you what do you think of the facilities loca lo here? For for senior citizens do you I mean do you think the the the rent up to what they should be or not? The rent? The the facilities the kind of things I mean what what kind of you know the ki erm is erm Would you like more there to be more friendly people or not, do you or do you think there's enough? In what? Liv in the Do you know in the actual flats where you're living here? Yeah. Is there enough do you think enough is provided for? For elderly people? they should have two doors. Shouldn't they. And then what what chance have you got? So you'd like two doors? You should you should have two doors. They doesn't want to do them. D definitely. I think that big whatsername riot did you call it? Mhm. Riot. I was I was in here they they broke the window. They broke your windows? All they broke all the windows went up to all the shops don't you remember? How did that Yeah. How did it start? What was what did it start from? God only knows and He won't split. God only knows. I'm screaming here in the house. And the neighbours can't get me. See the I was on me own. I were knocked back on the bloody floor. They pushed us pushed Oh my God it was terrible. Till three police come and got hold of them. I landed up in hospital. What did they do it for? I I ask you. Is it because they were out of work or what? And what do you feel, why do you think they did it ? cops out . They c Oh they came in buses didn't they. Yeah all the flats. And the shops. Didn't you have that in your book? Did you Do you know when erm when that happened, was that the first that had ha had anything like that ever happened before? In all the time you've been in the flats? Not like that Not like that. It hadn't What kind of things had been in the past? Nothing? See What so that was the first time spoiled everything that were Aft after that Yeah. the shopkeepers didn't know what to do with theirself. They were wondering whether it was going to happen again. Course it wore off then. The the things got better. They had cleared out. Mhm. And of course the ne evidently some old come along and picked up, you know the shops. Oh it was terrible. Terrible the How long did it last for, that trouble? Ooh it was terri t a long time duck. Do you used er do you know when you have you have you made much use of the housing office the the the local housing office? You know the sort of complex here?. I've got one there ain't I? Yes do you go to the housing office at all if you have any problems? Yeah well they go home at night time don't they? Yeah so you've g So they're going to ain't they?they go home at night and it's coloured girls, white girls and then there's the men that the cars. Goes out . They live just here go down the steps. There. Is that what you mean? I'm talking about the housing office. You know the housing office If say you've got need any repairs or anything, if you've got any problems, do you do you use them at all do you go and go and see them? It's the housing office, you know that's on the complex. Just at the front. Yeah you you go tell the Yeah do you go have you been there often? Yeah er and they made you wait wait an hour, duck. They used to have wet fl floors and everything. Mm. Have you had a lot of problems with repairs? What kind of things have gone wrong in the past. Yeah we something wrong with the bathroom. What was it? The taps er at the side are leaking. Coming in in the corners where the where you go out on the landing. When I was over there. Er all the water was coming over the doors. Mhm. Oh I'm glad you asked me that duck, I could tell you plenty about it. Well like what kind of things? Er the water was coming in and you couldn't put mats on the floor. Couldn't put mats on the floor. Over the d over the windows it was coming in. All well we all said it must have been a quick job. We didn't know what to think did we? Yeah. Does everybody tell you er that? Do they? Did the people old people who have problems Yeah. Yeah How how do you feel about the fact the flats are coming down? I mean do you f I mean how do you feel about ha about moving? I feel sick. I don't want to leave. You don't want No. to leave? I don't want to leave. So long as I've got somebody now there's nobody along here . Yeah. And I'm sick. Yeah. See when as they took and can't whatsername Mhm. You can't go out on your own, you don't know what's gonna got . I never let nobody know that I I walked home. And took a chance. And I come on to the mi middle Mm. middle. They pulled the brakes. Mhm. They pulled the brakes and they stopped the car to me. I fainted. Yeah. You don't put that down do you? When you said You know when you said You know earlier on. Erm you said to me that that you used used to like it here. Yeah. Then it went then it sort of since then the people it's gone Yeah. But but but since then it's got worse. Yeah. If it's got worse, why is it you'd still like to stay? I know it's not an easy question to ask you but Well I'd say it's because whatsername I don't know what who I'm going to come next to. That's what Is it the uncertainty I mean are you are you saying it's the uncertainty of what the future'll bring, that's why you feel Yeah yes that's what I mean Yeah. Yeah that's it's just that I want to clarify that. Yeah. Oh it be ever so Do you What do you do do you know if erm if you ever want to get to a phone to see a doctor or wh to get to a the doctor Yeah. or anyone else, what do you do? How do you I mean do you We well we well telephones and I mean how is it for telephones? Well there was one at the end at en e at the end of er Walk. Mhm. Course you had to run out in snow, run out in rain. Didn't you. Is that what you mean? Mhm do you have do you have a lo I mean is it is it easy to get to in touch say you want to in an emergency, to get in touch with anyone phone, is it is it easy to get to a phone? What would you do? If you wanted to get in touch with the doctor? Well when they brought the doctor for me. Yeah who we who did you go to? Well we went to one of them they went to one of them there. What? There's one out here, one here, but that one has gone, duck . Som did somebody else do that for you? Yeah. Was that a neighbour or Yes a neighbour. Yes a neighbour. It might be the letter man that brings the letters. Mhm. What do you feel you know the fact that that that quite a lot of erm well you were saying e you saying that quite a few quite a lot more coloured people live here Pardon? than when you When you first came here you said there were not many coloured people. Yet now there are more. Yeah How do you fe there are more coloured people Were there many peopl were there many coloured people when you first came here or just one or two or or none? There were I couldn't see none. You couldn't see any at all. So how do you feel about that the fact that there are more coloured people Duck, they were coming in, there was some nice ones and some decent ones. Yeah. You know what I mean. Oh my God almighty. they they used to pay the people to whatsername Mhm. when they come. They come kicking kicking all whatsernames up and down . Mhm. Mhm. Oh the messing up and the bins. Yeah. Mhm. But do you think that the Yeah so and do you f I mean d Have you managed to make any friends with coloured people on the flats at all? I I that's what I've just said. They wasn't all like it. Yes you've some you found some Yeah. Yes. There is nice ones. Mhm. But there're some rowdies as well. Mhm. They wouldn't stop and think. Mhm. During the period you've lived in the flats, have you found noise a problem or not? Has it been noisy or not ? Noisy. Noisy. It has? Yes as time went along. What kind of well what kind of noise do you mean? Er singing, falling out, breaking windows, fighting. With their wives and things. Mhm. Yes . You know the fact that what what do you feel about You know the fact that s there some girls you know that work as prostitutes locally Yeah. What do you feel about that I mean what's your view. out there the cars comes and street walking on there . They haven't stopped it yet have they? I mean what do you feel about The police the police. Does a bit to the best of my ability but er they're there just the same. one lot get kicked er out then another lot comes. I think they should make a place for them. like they have been. You know Yeah. Let them A decent place. And get them off of the streets. So you s you s you're saying so you're saying some kind of actual Yeah. So you not it it's do you say, you're not actually against, you don't mind er you you wouldn't mind them doing what they're doing if they did it away from here. Yeah. That's what you're saying, somewhere actually Yes. Yes a a proper place. Mhm. Why do why do think Yeah. Eh? Why do you think it is that that you get erm that you have got quite a few girls that become prostitutes, what do you think the reasons are for it? You see I'm not he goes either Mhm. And they go they go like that. They go like that. That's the only way I can see it. They go out . And it's Oh I think it's terrible. I think it's terrible. You go H What do you feel towards the girls? That get some of the girls they's kicked them out and . See what I mean it's all mixed up. . Yeah. one or two killed on here wasn't there? Do you kn erm on the subject of I know last last time I came when I spoke to you that you were saying about you were saying about religion and it was and the fact that you erm go to church. About going to church. Do you go often? To church? Yeah. When I'm alright I go . Mhm. and the the that goes off there. So do you so do you go together, a few of you together or do you go. Er the catholics goes over there. Mhm. Catholics goes over there and the others go to er ones down protestants down here. Mhm. So so which is your so so you go to you go to the local catholic church. Yes just past the road. Mhm and do you go how often do you go You go on a Sunday morning Sunday you go to confession. Then you get communion, then you come home and have your breakfast. Mhm. We fast back home. When we go country. Mhm. I mean in Ireland. Yeah. Erm you were telling me about religion about the fact that you went to church. Yeah. It do you go each Sunday? Is it every Sunday you go? Every Sunday yeah. Do you get much do you enjoy going to church? oh yes yeah. Do you. Yes. Mhm. Jesus . Mhm. And then we put the money in the box for the whatsername. over there and get a communi communion. whatsername. And then there used to be talking about and er if you passed by them . You know shouted . What are you go what are you going there for. All . But you ignored them but in the end we we had to something abo about it. Mhm. Do you have much contact outs erm do you I mean do you Do you have much contact with people Have you got made many friends? That you know through going to to church? Oh you make friends you go to chur church Mhm. Yeah. Of course you do. Do you see many lo are there many local people from the from the flats who go? With you Not all not all that many from the fl flats. All around there where them houses is. Yeah. So it's mainly from the houses Yeah. Yeah. Mhm. Do you know any others erm tell you about erm you know some of the some of the times when you've been affected by crime. Erm what do you think of the police? What kind of job do you think the do in in the flats? Well they're doing the best they've got them with the . Walking around all night. I erm They start at six o'clock and finish at six I think. No finish about about nine o'clock. Yeah. That's the security. Yeah. That's the security people Yeah well they're different than the other policemen. They're di Yeah they're diff What about the actual police themselves, you see this is the security. Then there's the police. Yeah. What about the actual police themselves? When you Do you see much of them? Oh yeah. You do? Yeah you do. Yes. Mm. They're a Somewhere round here over there Yeah. somebody's in somewhere over there that's go t drugs. And then the police goes and all the the real police. And they're going up and down there, trying to catch hold of them. Swearing. Oh my God the dog's ba barking and nobody . Ju that's just lately. Mhm. No sleep. coloureds play music until six o'clock in the morning. Has there been has there been a problem with music on late? Has that been a problem that you've had often or . Yeah there has. the daytime but not at nighttime. Cos there is people here that at work. But they don't consider nobody. And just lately they got as they do er whatsername. They come on y on your door and insulting you and one thing and another so There's nowt you could do. You couldn't stop them. Do you think the police I mean do you think they should be. What do you think Are they ke What do you think are the major problems they should be concentrating on? What are the bi what are the crimes that the police should be concen Well you you need when they do harm they Yeah what kind of things should the police What are the most i What do you think are the major problems the major crimes in the flats? That the police should be concentrating on? What are the major problems for for you as a tenant? You mean now What are the kind of things I mean is it What what are the kind of things d that you think the police should be putting their efforts into stopping? Stop it Well they did stop it didn't they? Stop what? They stopped it in the end didn't they? Stopped what What are you t Stopped them from what in our flats. They stopped them Did they They went ar they went around all the houses. Went around, duck. the blacks and the whites, they've all gone together. . Oh dear. You didn't know whether you you didn't know whether you got day or night. Frightened to go out and do a bit of shopping. Was that was that during the riot. What you said that that what you said about the riots, was that is that what you're talking about the riots the worry. Is that what you're talking about now when you're saying about the about erm you didn't know what to About being frightened you've said a few times. Yeah. Was it during the riots that you Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I were coming home one day with the with the with me shopping. And and took the bag out of me hands. And me other bag with me money in. Course I'd never carry that bag again. How long ago was that? Oh it's not all that long ago, duck. That woman at the corner was she has her bag pinched often. Mhm. So do you think you do you think the police do a lot er do enough to help help you with those type of problems? Oh yeah. They do They do their best. Do their best. They go through hell and fire with you. Yeah they do. What do you think about th Yeah. Pardon? What do you think about the government? Do you think the what do you think of the government No I tell you what I think about the the govern government. Yeah? It's no good since Margaret Thatcher go in. Mhm. What has it what has it what ways are you critical? What do you think Well for a start they're all . For a start. They got no putting a bit of best clothes on and having a good time breaking in in people's houses and one thing and another. They've got no money. They've got no jobs. They they'll wa going around hungry. Well that's my estimation. Mhm. Do you v well do you vote at elections? Yeah. I do vote. So how do you think yo how do you think you'll Do you think you I don't I don't whatsername for all. You mean I get I get out of it. Mhm. I don't she'd be brought in any more. So who would She's all for the p she's all for the whatsernames. Er money people. people who've got money she's all she'll look after them but she's not looking after them blokes. Now. Mhm. So how do you think you'll vote when it comes to the election? I'll vote for the right person won't I. Mhm. So you so you wouldn't vo So what you're saying is woul . Right. That erm course work's gotta be in a week today. Yes. What've you Is er I've got that other one to do yeah. What both sets of course work have gotta be in ? Mm. Right in that case we'd better have a look at that now. Is it in here? No it's in the other one. Have you got the other one written up? Yeah it's just that erm It's just got . Right. Yes. And that's all. Lovely. . Next one. should have plenty of work there, you should be okay Mm. with that. that one. Which one are we going to do? Can't remember. volumes or polygons. Cheapo supermarkets produced dried peas in sealed polythene bags contained in er stored in wire bins blah blah Oh. Was this one we were wanting to look at wasn't it? Yeah. Draw accurately and name six polygons with sides three four five six seven and eight and nine sides. Three of these should be regular. Mhm. Okay. So y can you remember how to erm produce er polygons, how to how to make them? How to make regular polygons? No. Right. Now a regular polygon Where are we? Something to write with. A regular polygon has all its sides and all its angles equal. Mhm. So if you start with three,that's Mm. a triangle isn't it? It's the smallest polygon you can make cos if you've got two sides you can't join it up can you? No. So you've three sides,all equal length, and all the angles have gotta be equal. Now the triangle add ups to how many degrees? Hundred and eighty. Hundred and eighty. So if the three have gotta be equal you've a hundred and eighty divided by three which is sixty each. Mhm. Er and then the next one's four. Now there are a lot of four-sided ones really, Mm. erm cos if you start thinking about the four-sided ones there's the square which everybody knows about which is again is the regular polygon isn't it? Mm. Cos it's got all four sides equal and four ninety degrees. Mhm. Then if you can think about that as being stretched as it were, Mm. you know keeping two of them fixed and the other two If you think about it being stretched you get a rectangle don't you? Mhm. A K A an oblong. But again Mm. it's not regular. no. But you can then think of that That's with the the sides two sides stretched but still parallel to one another aren't they? Yeah. Now you c the angle's ninety. As soon as you destroy the ninety degree angle you get a parallelogram don't you? Yeah. I'm gonna have to draw it there cos I wanted to Like that. You get the parallelogram. Yep. Opposite sides parallel, but the angles aren't the same any more. No. Now if you think about going this way, that was So keeping the angles constant at ninety wasn't it? Mm. Now this way you can keep the sides constant and destroy the angles. Mm. And if you do that you end up with a rhombus which is a squashed Mm. square. The four sides are the same length, Mm. but the angles have gone. So that's a rhombus. And that's your quadrilaterals except for this one of course. haven't finished yet with quadrilaterals. There's this one which Yeah. is the kite. Yeah. It's got pairs of equal sides, Mm. but the two pairs of equal sides aren't opposite one another so you don't end up with the the either the rectangle Mm or the parallelogram. If you think about this you can think of a kite as two isosceles triangles glued together. Mm. Of different sizes. As you can think of a rhombus as two iso two same-sized isosceles Yeah. triangles glued together. So it's line of symmetry there and that isn't a line of symmetry . Okay? So there's your four. Yeah. That's the regular one. You can get thr triangles isosceles triangles,right-angled triangle and Mm scalene and so on. There's your four That's your quadrilaterals, except of course for this one. Any old size. Mm. No no angles the same, no Mm. no lengths the same, which is the quadrilateral. Which is the general one. All right? Mm. Now it is possible to draw these, and the the next one up is a pentagon isn't it? Can you remember? You've gotta remember these. You need to remember these anyway for your exam. Mm. Well if we're gonna draw a pentagon It's easy enough, we want five sides, so everybody can draw a house end. Mm. But it's not regular. No. You can also draw this, and people tend to forget this one. Oh by the way, sorry, there's another one here. I tend to forget it, everybody else tends to forget it, it's an arrow, arrowhead, or something like that,is also a quadrilateral. It's got four sides. Mm. So you can remem you can think about this. This is can happen here as well. Mm. So you can actually get That's a pentagon isn't it? Five sides. Mm. And you can stretch it and bend it wherever you want but that's th th Mm. it's it's till a pentagon isn't it? It is possible of course erm to you know draw a line er c you know distort it, like that. Mm. But if you want to draw the regular one You can sit and do this backwards and work out what the angles are. . But if you think, all polygons can be drawn inside a circle. Mm. So if you draw a circle You know you wanna split this up into five sides. Mm. So, a circle is three hundred and sixty degrees isn't it? So if you wanna split that up into five segments you divide three hundred and sixty by five which gives you? Seventy two. Yeah? Mm. Seventy two degrees, you want five sides. So if you start at the centre and draw a line and mark off seventy two degrees, Mm. and then mark off another seventy two degrees and another seventy two degrees and another seventy two degrees and join the ends, Yeah. you'll end up with a regular pentagon. Sorry. Have you got a compass and protractor to hand? No. I can go and get one. I don't need wonderful drawing instruments but No no no. No, draw yourself a circle. Oh. Try one of those. Right. Okay. Er put a line in from somewhere, there from the centre up to there, just to give yourself a start somewhere. Mhm. Just draw that in. Straight line, yeah, use the edge of the protractor'll do. Mhm. Now draw yourself seventy two degrees from that. Seventy two degrees seventy two seventy er all the way around. That's right. Join each end there, you end up with a pentagon. Just join join them up and see, what d'you get? Alright? Mm. You get a very nice pentagon. Mm. You can do the same thing for any of the others, so however man many sides you want, Mm. you divide three hundred and sixty by that number of sides which gives you this angle here,the angle at the centre. Cos you just dividing three hund You just divide the three hundred and sixty up into seven eight or how many bits Mm. it is. You've got a slight problem with things like seven cos what's three hundred and sixty divided by seven? I don't know. Yes I don't know either! Fifty four point fifty one point four. Fifty one point four. Now if you're drawing fifty one point four, Mm. you're going to have to erm you know very very careful with a protractor and the protractor you've got not it's not gonna really do a fifty one point Mm. four, it's gonna be marginally out. mm. Fifty one point five you'll f you'll manage Mm. reasonably, particularly if you got a sharp pencil. So But six you can do. Can you do can you do a hexagon the other way, which is six sided? S you could do you could do a hexagon this way actually draw a hexagon. Do another circle. Now,it's gotta Hexagon's got six sides hasn't it? Mm. So you've gotta divide three hundred and sixty by six. What d'you come to? Sixty. Sixty. So if you need sixty just draw it and I'll show you You'll remember the other way when I've sho when I've shown you it. Just draw that up. D'you remember drawing the flower pattern when you were a kid? No. Eh? Oh dear me! Can you remember? Oh yeah . Yes? That's right, just mark them off. Now this is n not quite accurate, because it doesn't quite go into it six times. It's just marginally off. But usually by the time you've taken in the errors of your compass and your pr your pencil and everything else it come out to be fairly close to. Do you remember doing that? Yeah. That's right, well that's in that's it. That's all it is. And then join 'em up. But it only works for that particular Mm. erm f figure for the hexagon. It actually doe it works for triangle, you can do a triangle as well cos of course if you realize you can put a line across there a line across there a line Mm. across there, which'll give you the equilateral triangle. So you understand what you've got to do. You've only gotta pick out Does it say three regular ones? Three of these should Mm. be regular. I've gotta draw six polygons, and then Yes. Yes. Right. So the first polygon's a triangle. The next one's a quadrilat well is a quadrilateral or a square or whatever it is. Fifth one That one's a pentagon. That's a hexagon. Mm. What's seven? S What do you call it? Well that's the point. You've gotta know what you call it. I think it's a heptagon. . I think so. There's also people who call it a septagon as well September seventh. Oh. You know that. That sort of thing. Erm usually called a heptagon. You're gonna have to look it up, you're gonna find a Mm. erm maths dictionary or something somewhere. Eight is the? Erm the octagon isn't it ? It's the octagon yes. And nine's a nonagon. Mm. Well nine's non. Yeah? Mm. N O is actually the the the November is actually Mm. really the ninth month except they decided to stick a couple of m extra months in to get the twelve. It was originally September October November and December are seven eight nine ten. Mm. Really. Cos that's why they d You know it's it's sept Mm. oct nov and dec, seven Mm. eight nine ten. But Yeah. they stuck a couple of months in the middle of the year so that th instead of working properly Mm. they're now two out. Right. polygon triangle as shown. Find first by measurement and then by calculation the sum of the internal angles. Er right. If you got some There's a pentagon. It says divide 'em up. Sum Find first by measurement and then by calculation . Right. Okay. I'm gonna have to draw these with straight lines with a ruler it's not gonna work is it? Can you draw one of these? Draw a pentagon with a with a ruler. Doesn't matter what it looks like as long as it's got five sides that join together without gaps. So now you've gotta split it up into triangles by starting at one corner. Mm. So pick a corner, Mhm. Mm. and split em up, yeah? That'll do. Draw a line so you produce triangles. You've already got one there haven't you? How many triangles have you got? Three. You've got three haven't you? Yeah. Five sides, three triangles. It wants the sum of the internal angles. Now the internals angle is that isn't it? Mhm. And that and that and that and that. So can you measure those,write hem down and add them up. See how good you are at measuring ang how how good that protractor is. That one's sixty one isn't it . Yeah sixty one. Yes. That one's not far off ninety I think. smack on ninety. By jove! Er that's Well what's your Just Long as long as you stick That's it. One hundred and seven. Yeah. Next time I shall bring you a protractor that you can read. I bought I had one but I think someone nicked it. Yes. It tends to be the fate of protractors. Mm. Hundred and five. Yes I'd call that a hun I'd go along with that at a hundred and five. Hundred and nine. Hundred and nine all right then. Just tot 'em up and see what you what you the total comes to. Four hundred and seventy two. Four hundred and sev Eh? You sure? . That must be more than sixty three. Sixty one. Measure that one again please. . That's right. a hundred and twenty. That's more like it yes. That's much more like it. Five hundred and thirty two. Five hundred and thirty two. Okay. Now, it says by calculation. Now, what do you know about the angles of a triangle? Add up to a hundred and eighty degrees. Add up to a hundred and eighty degrees. So you've got a hundred and eighty degrees there haven't you? You've got that one plus these two gives you a hundred and eighty. You've got a hundred and eighty degrees there haven't you? Mm. Cos these are these three add up to a hundred and eighty. And you've got a hundred and eighty degrees there. These three add up to a hundred and eighty. So all in all you've got ever angle covered here haven't you? Mm. So it should come to three times one hundred and eighty. Mm. Which is? Five hundred and forty . Five hundred and forty. You're eight degrees out, which is not bad considering this the rather poor nature of your erm protractor . . So when you do this properly Mm. make sure you've got a reasonable size reasonable clear protractor Mm. and draw a reasonable sized diagram. Now Mm. Yeah. But of course the thing about it is that it works for any shape. Mm. So no matter if you have and pick a corner. I'd rather pick this one because it makes life easier,you can see Mm. because of this idea here. Go like that,like that and like that, and you've got one two three four triangles. You should have six Mm. sides, one two three four five six. Mm. As long as you pick i If you pick your corner carefully, Mm. you don't end up with problems. And if you draw your figure carefully as well if you did a erm Mm. a hexagon like that with a going inwards rather than sticking outwards, Mm. you'll erm you'll find you get nice easy Mm. erm triangles that come out of that. Now then. That's doing it by measurement and tha and that's doing it by calculation ain't it . That's right , that's doing by measurement and that's doing by cal Y actually I think dunno. My eyes aren't as good as yours but me me glasses aren't bad. Oh I can't No I can't see this on this protractor. No that's one of the problems. Yeah. That's really one of the problems. Get a decent one. About ten P . Well they're at least l you know they're hardly the m greatest thing for breaking the bank. So are you happy with what you're supposed to do with this to produce these results? Yeah. Yes. that mea that measurement and back up again . Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Draw a graph draw a graph by plotting the internal angle sum , which is the sum of the internal angles,in this case five hundred and forty, Mhm. on the vertical axis , upwards, Mm. the number of sides, N on the horizontal axis. Use your graph to find the sum of internal angles of an eleven-sided blah blah and twelve sided . Mm, so you just carry it on do you? You just carry it on . Mm. Just carry the graph on. Deduce a rule from your results so far that could be used to find the internal angle sum of a polygon with any number of sides. You should know now. How many triangles? Three. How many sides? Five. I rest my case. Using your original polygon constructions Mm. that the sum Show using your original polygon constructions that the sum of the external angles of a polygon is three hundred and sixty. Mm. Mm. Now you think about walking round this. I've Mm. started along here, I turn through that, I walk along here I turn through that angle I walk along here I turn through that angle I walk along here I turn through that angle,I walk along here and turn through that angle and I'm back where I started from. Mm. Now in fact of course you've gone round in a? Circle. In a circle. A circle is three hundred and sixty Mm. degrees. Mm. Which of course is what you were doing here. Mm. Are you happy with that? Does that give Mm. you a reasonable start? Mm.. Go on tell me mark this out in a table don't you? Yes. So y y the internal angles of the regular ones you can measure. Mm. Don't when you're doing this This has six triangles in it hasn't it? Mm. If you're doing it by calculation, you pick one corner and draw tr Y the other triangles. Don't do this, cos it doesn't work that way. You need to have picked one vertex and just draw Mm. the diagonals from that vertex to the other ones. Yeah. Otherwise you end up with a some very very strange results. Mm. Right? Yep. That's that bit accomplished . That's that bit accomplished yes. just got that one to finish off.. On the fourteenth. Yeah I've got seven actually. Seven or eight. I'll just go and get them. I've got them upstairs. Right. Yeah. .That's right. Yeah, but you're as tidy as I am you are! Come on then. That's nought . Nought , that's right. That's three. Yes. Six. Yep. That's eight. What's the sum of those three? Nine. Nine that's better. And that's eight twelve. Twelve is right. minus two. Just write the minus two all the way across there cos it allows you to do the calculation much easier rather than trying to remember it. Mm. So nought minus two. Minus two . Is Good. Well done. . Eh? ? Oh beg your pardon yes sorry. You're right . Seven. Mhm. . Yeah. If you're gonna draw that graph up what will you have to do? put it down below. You'd have to put it below. That's right. Mm. Right now I don't wanna I'm gonna have to push you along a bit to to erm make sure you get this done. So I don't You know whilst I would have normally if I'd been teaching a class done about five or six examples of that, that's all you're gonna get. Right. To start with, anyway. So we're gonna up the ante a bit. We've got X Y equals X squared plus two X, which is what I was talking about before. Mm. We'll still do it the same. Nought one two three four. Mhm. We're gonna set it up again. We got X and nought one two three four, but now to start the calculation we're going to put X squared in first. Mm. So we've got X squared, and then we're gonna put in two X. That term then that term. So, nought squared? It's nought. It's nought. One squared? No. . One times one. Oh yeah one. One. Be very careful with that cos it's very very easy to do that. Yeah. Four. Yep. Six. Nine. How many ? Nine. Nine. Twelve. No it's not twelve . Don't do that! It's erm sixteen. It's sixteen. You must get over this business Mm. of thinking about it in those terms, that way along, along Mm. that line. Think about it from there to there. Mm. What's the relation that to that not this to this. Mm. It's really very erm bad this business. You know you got introduced to it when you were y very Mm. small and the things you first hear are the things you remember. Mm. And it takes a terrible st struggle to get rid of it. Okay, so now we want two X. Two. Er two X? Oh that's nought. It's nought, good. S Two. Four. Yes. Six. Six. Eight. Eight. And now we add 'em together. Well I'll do the first one for you cos I can do that. . . Yes. What's the next one? That's a two. Three. Three. Eight. Eight. Fifteen. Fifteen. Erm Twenty four. Mm. I'm the next one I'm gonna do I'm gonna spread it down below nought so we're getting into the negative numbers. But it w which will give you a better picture of this graph, but we gonna have to get a chunk on this. I'm also gonna open this up a bit. One two three four. Just for reasons that it'll draw better if I open it. I'm not gonna get it on.. Yeah you will. I'm not you know. Gotta get up to thirteen er up to twenty four. Oh right. I'm not gonna go that far. Blah blah blah. We'll get enough from this. So nought is nought which is alright. One two three four. One is gonna be three isn't it. Mm. Which is there roughly. Two is going to be eight. Which is about there isn't it? Mhm. Three is gonna be fifteen. Which is One of these days I'll do this on graph paper. I'll try fifteen rather than fourteen. What you've got is this. It's not a straight line. There's no way you can get a straight line through that No. at all. So it's actually a curve like that. Mm. Yeah?other side the same. It's called a parabola. That's only one half of the parabola. Mm. So what we'll do is to gi y Thing about this is you need the practice in in actually crunching Yeah the numbers. Mm. So what we'll do is we'll have It's also actually equals X squared plus erm we'll make it three X minus No I'll not be I'll not be nasty. Plus one. We're gonna go from minus three to three. Mm. Now again just in steps of one. Don't Mm. you know try and get Sometimes in an examination they'll give you funny numbers like two point five but they tend to work 'em out for you. Mm. So you get things in there that have already been worked out for you so you don't have to erm So minus three. The next one will be minus two won't it? Yeah. Next one? Minus one. Minus one. Nothing. Nought. One. One . two and three. So now we're gonna work out X squared. What's X squared then? What's minus three times minus three? Six innit? No! Three threes are ? Nine. Nine. Yeah so minus times a minus is plus. Mm. That'll be nine. That'll be four. Two. And one. One. Well rethunk . Yes nought. One. One. Four. Four. Nine. Nine. Good. Now it gets hairy. But you may Whatever, Mm. if you square a number you're gonna get a positive answer. It's gonna give you a plus every time. So if end up squaring a number and get a negative answer you've got it wrong! . But now of course three times minus three is minus nine. Mm. Three times minus two is? Minus six. Minus six. Minus three . Three. Nothing, Mhm. three, six Six. and nine. Remember you're working from there to there. Mhm. Now we want a plus one. Nine minus nine plus one. Minus eight. No, add em all up? Add em all up. Plus one. Plus one is good. Sic minus three. Minus Two. Not two. Si Four ones Four. five, take away six is minus one. One yeah. Minus one again . Minus one. One. One. Five. Eleven. Nineteen. Mhm. You with that? Yeah. Happy? Yeah. I've not gone too fast? No. Good. That's okay. So now of course we want minus three to plus three, so we want the axis down the middle. Mm. Don't we? And also we've gotta go down to minus one,so we'll put it there and hope and pray we've got enough on this time. Nought, one, two, three, minus one, minus two, minus three. Oh. Yeah. We'll put in minus one there. One, two, God is it that time? three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve. It's getting better. . Done it! Got it on. Right. Minus three is at one isn't it? Mhm. Yeah. Minus two is at minus one . Minus one. Mm. Which is unfortunate the way we've got it numbered but that'll do. Minus Yes? Yeah. M minus one is at minus one,as well. Mm. Nought is at one. Mm. One is at five. Two is at eleven,which is about there isn't it? Mm. Have I gone I've gone over slightly have I? Never mind. And three is at nineteen. Now the thing about this is look y y This is alright, you can get this curve in here. Dow down there, and turn around so you can get through and get the curve. Now when you get down to one you do not suddenly t put a straight line across there. Mm. You carry the curve on round come back like that. Mhm. So in fact one of the things that you Cos usually you're given more points here so you can get a nice curve on both sides so you get a nice Don't go from there to there straight across. Mhm. Cos you'll lose marks for that. You want a nice smooth curve. Does it? Mhm. Yes. Mm. We'll do other things, but it's gotta be done with that later. But what I'll do is I'll set you some work on stuff you need to revise and so forth. And we shall one of our newest section secretaries to present his first Report to Congress. I'm sure it's your wish to congratulate on his appointment and our best wishes for the future. Well thanks President for that welcome and thank you colleagues, Congress, for the welcome that you've given to me. National Office, moving pages hundred and fourteen to hundred and twenty four including Report. The engineering industry has continued in decline for the past year. The lack of an industrial policy by this government, reliance on market forces, and short-term investment policies have undermined an industry at the heart of the British economy. The most worrying feature of this decline has been the failure of the industry to train people. That's why the unions in engineering have developed a training for engineering strategy. Extensive consultations have taken place and are now complete, and the document is ready for publishing. I hope that employers, government and trainers themselves will treat it as a serious attempt by the trade unions to contribute to the debate on training for the industry. The ship building industry has also been in decline for a decade or more, and in each year's report has documented well that decline. A decline that's under circumstances when we're still an island nation, still dependent upon shipping to impor export and import most of our goods. It must be acknowledged there was between nineteen seventy nine and nineteen eighty four a slump in the ship building industry followed by a slump in world sea-borne trade. However, in nineteen eighty four the market began to improve until, in nineteen ninety one, we saw record orders placed and, although that's levelled out, orders still outstrip production. Along with these improvements in the market, we see demands for vessel safety, concern for the environment, all oil spillages have highlighted the need to have modern ships with the right design. Coupled with this, an increased exploitation of marine resources, fishing industry, gas and oil extraction, supplemented by aqua- culture and seabed mining. All creating for the next decade and beyond opportunities for a ship building industry. Are we, the United Kingdom, going to be able to exploit those opportunities? Has the ship building industry cooperated, with Europe perhaps, to enable it to be at the forefront? Has the government got a policy to assist? Has it a policy to enable the naval shipyards to diversify into merchant ship building? The answer's no. Instead, we're seeing the cynical deliberate closure of Sunderland ship builders, the refusal to allow Camel Laird's retained ship building on the Mersey by re-zed designating them to allow the intervention and, of course, we've seen the employees encouraged to enter into fight to death competitions which have weakened the industry, competitions that have clearly caused the receivership of Swan Hunters. Before that contract for the helicopter support ship was awarded, I think we all knew well that whoever didn't get it was in trouble, and that of course is why we never took sides. But I think we were surprised of the speed of the receivership at Swans on Tyneside. So the fight is on to save ship building on Tyneside. Firstly, I must pay re tr tribute and say how proud we are at the way that our people in Tyneside have responded to the crisis. Hear hear Shop shop stewards, officials, MPs and the community have worked at hundred mile an hour going to wherever necessary in order to save ship building on Tyneside and Swan Hunters. We as a union, along with the S N C of the Confed do, and should, give unqualified and total support to this campaign. And as a first step we should demand three things essential to give any chance to retain ship building on Tyneside. The three frigates must be allowed to be completed by Swan Hunter. The government must give the necessary guarantees to enable the Omani order to be placed. The intervention fund must be available to enable Swan Hunters and other naval ship yards to diversify into merchant ship building. This would have saved Camel Lairds and it's a must to save Swan Hunters. Colleagues, I commend this report to you. Thank you . Turn to Report, page one one four, one one five, one one six, one one seven, one one eight, one one nine, one two O, one two one, one two one, one two two, one two three and one two four. Colleagues, I now call the mover of the special motion Swan Hunter Ship Building Limited to be moved on behalf of the C E C and seconded by . President, Congress,, Northern Region, moving the C E C's special motion on Swan Hunter. If only could have stayed behind to hear this being said, he could've taken a lot of messages back to his friends in government. President, there are two types of swans in our country, one totally protected by our government, the other faces extinction by the same government. The swans that we are concerned about build ships on the River Tyne. Congress, since the middle ages, since the nineteenth century, Swan Hunter has played the leading role in British maritime history. During those years it has built over two thousand seven hundred ships, including four hundred war ships for the Royal Navy. They've developed a reputation as one of the world's leading ship builders. President, since Swan Hunter returned to the private sector in nineteen eighty six, workforce, management, trade unions, have worked together to produce the world's finest war ships and one of the world's finest yards. Millions of pounds have been spent on research and developing, flexible working practice have been introduced. A model for any manufacturing industry. Swan Hunters is not, as the Trade and Industry Minister described, an out of date sunset industry of yesterday. No Congress, Swan Hunter is a modern hi-tech, high skilled, state of the art, manufacturing facility. A modern ship yard, built on the hard work and the dedication of Tyneside workers. The same workforce, Mr President who, during the Falklands crisis, worked day and night to produce the ships needed by the British Navy. The same workforce, Mr President, that today, despite years of hard work, dedication, and commitment, stand to lose all. The result of yet more Tory neglect and economic mismanagement. Congress, the empoy employment consequences of Tyneside, should Swan Hunters be allowed to close, would be disastrous, a catastrophe from which I believe Tyneside might never recover. Some experts have already predicted that job losses could exceed six thousand. That, remembering, in an area that already has the worst unemployment record in mainland U K. President, the prospect for Tyneside should Swans close, is too bleak to contemplate. The workforce at Swan Hunters have never asked for any special privileges, they've always asked for a fair deal on a level playing field. But what they do ask for, and what we should be calling to this government to honour the existing contracts at Swan Hunters, to allow the workers at Swan to complete the work on the three vessels already in the river. In addition, the Northern Region calls for a full open, and more importantly, independent, investigation into the tendering arrangements for the L P H. We demand a full unequivocal commitment from this government that Swan Hunters be given a fair chance to tender for future Navy work. President, the whole economic af future of Tyneside stands at this minute in the balance. In fourteen years the Northern Region alone has lost over two hundred thousand manufacturing jobs and when a fella visiting us today says that we're all workers, I remember telling me that, that we di might eat all out the same trough, but by the hell they have bigger spoons than we have. President, the Northern Regions a dismal future and Congress, our demands are simple. We call upon the government to demonstrate the same dedication and commitment as the workforce at Swans. We call upon them to demonstrate their commitment to manufacturing, to quality skills, to engineering excellence, to demonstrate that commitment to ship building a at Tyneside before it's too late and, you know, they can do that this week. They can do that by announcing the decision on the orders from Oman. They can do that on the decision that the frigates will be finished on the Tyne. Congress, I urge you to support the Swan's workforce, support the people on Tyneside, and do all that's in your power to retain ship building on the Tyne. Support the C E C's special motion and before I move that Congress, I'll accept in anticipation, that the General Secretary will double the pocket collection that we have outside the door. Congress, I move. Thanks very much indeed. The General Secretary's not here, so I'll agree to it. Right. , C E C Technical Craft Section, seconding the C E C Motion on Swan Hunter Ship Builders Limited. I must start off by highlighting a sad position in my o my own region, and that's the demise of Camel Laird, another once-great ship building company. Camel Lairds is now owned by B S E L, who two and a half years ago announced the run down of Camel Lairds unless another buyer was found. Next month, July, that run down will be complete. How ironic that B S E L are also the company that have won the order that Swan Hunters were hoping for to keep their workforce employed. Because that order was lost, Swans are now in the dire position that the motion highlights. It's a position that's only too familiar to myself as an ex-member of the Camel Laird workforce. Two thousand six hundred direct jobs and another estimated two and a half thousand indirect jobs will have been lost in the last two and a half years by the closing of Camel Lairds. Lairds, like Swans, was designated a Naval yard and therefore intervention fund and for the E E C. With the advent of the peace dividend, those yards, designated Naval yards cannot compete with the merchant yards who receive the intervention fund, which is basically a subsidy that allows European yards to compete on a level plain with shipyards in the Far East. Two and a half years ago Camel Laird started a campaign to gain access to the intervention funding and because of the total lack of any sort of industrial policy by this government, and their refusal to support the Camel Laird application to the E E C, next month will see the closure of Camel Lairds which will lead to a loss of skills that amounts almost to a criminal act on the part of this government, who seem prepared to allow this country to become a skill-free zone in order to drive down wages and conditions to a rate comparable with some Third World countries. It would appear from investigations that this government in nineteen eighty four did a deal with the E E C to close down shipyards in future years, for which they received millions of pounds from E E C funds, and they never used them for the purposes they were supposed to be used for. This led to the closure of N A S, N E S L. You may have seen the T V programme on this piece of industrial genocide. And for the same reason Camel Lairds could not gain intervention funding. For two and a half years Camel Lairds have unsuccessfully campaigned for intervention. Now we have Swans caught in the same trap. They can't afford such a long delay or they will become like Camel Laird, an extinct breed. This gov this government should support an application for all British yards to be given access to the intervention funding or shortly there will be no major ship building facilities at all in the U K, and hopefully no John Ma the i John Major either. I therefore second this motion and ask Congress to support. Put the emergency motion to the vote. All those in favour? Against? It's carried unanimously. Thank you very much colleagues. And, as mentioned colleagues, there is to be a bucket collection for Swan Hunters at lunch time. Please give as generously as you can. Still on the theme of collections, the Yorkshire Region have donated five hundred pound to the Burnsall strikers and also to the Crawley members in dispute. A message from Bill , General Secretary of the Transport and General Workers Union. Dear colleagues, it is my pleasure to send fraternal greetings to all delegates at the G M B Conference from the Executive Officers and Members of the T & G. In the twelve months since I last sent you our good wishes much activity has taken place within our movement. Our two unions have shown the value of working closer together to pursue our common aims and we look forward to continuing our association. We send you our best wishes for a successful Conference. We hope your debates prove interesting and decisi decisive in furtherance of your own policies and in addressing some of the problems which we face in our society at large. We are all only too painfully aware of the needs of working people in the difficult times which we face and I know their interests will be uppermost in your minds. Best wishes to you all. Bill Morris . Early this morning colleagues, you may recall that from the South Western Region came to the rostrum and made a point concerning Black Wednesday. What he's asking for is that any references to that particular disastrous day is not referred to as Black Wednesday, but in fact as Devaluation Day. Some pe it's given offence to some people. So, if we could remember that, that would be appreciated. Colleagues, immediately after the close of this particular session, there is to be a meeting in the conference hall within the Guildhall, on the National Trade Union Laws on National Tamp Tampon Alert Day, and there's to be a special video which will last approximately eleven minutes. Colleagues, you can purchase, you can purchase, CDs of all the various different sessions and indeed all your own speeches if you want to remind you th how good they are or how bad they are. You can purchase them in the hall. Conference stands adjourned till two P M. Thanks very much. Right as far as I'm concerned we've completed the first four points on the agenda right. Yeah? Point five is under your name what's that all about? Right well just that er it's been resolved a bit since I handled it cos er got this meeting set up which I don't know whether, whether you need to come, it's on the second of February Yeah And we're going to discuss er the likes of and and myself and Stuart er how we're gonna allocate the national accounts and who's gonna do what and just clarify What what what accounts and whose portfolio? Yeah Are you asking me whether I wanna be in there? I was just mentioning it to you in case you wanted to Don't wanna. No, you can sort it out between yourselves can't you? Yeah, so that was that. I just wanted to actually sort of mention it to so that he knows cos he's obviously invited to come if he wants to I don't think there's going to be any dramatic changes Well he should be there if you're there he should be there Yeah exactly Well just tell him to be there Yeah, okay You,,,, and , yeah? Yeah and new people if they're on board They won't be there by the second No way So that was just that one er nineteen ninety-three So is that is that point five gone is it, yeah? Yeah, only because it's Well you do have clearly define it you don't want yourself Got er got an agenda here The key issue is really the multiples isn't it? Yeah About how far down we go and how far up mob goes done this agenda where she wants where we need to discuss allocation of non-national accounts, national accounts, regional accounts, special offers, plans for nineteen ninety I think that one of the most confusing aspects is this word corporates, what's a national account corporate, what's a national account I went in to two corporates yesterday er and erm who are a massive potential for us, right in where we need to be I actually put a deal forward to Well I didn't yeah well we may have done We agreed didn't we , no we agreed, I thought we agreed that where that head office was in no where erm the multiple concern who looked after that business, where their national account department looked after that corporate we would look after it and where their key account department looked after it you would look after it and is a national account for for erm I remember that at one of the meetings, yeah is it? Yeah, so erm The sales rep shouldn't have called on because that's, that's a That's easy to say Gary but where's the memos, where's the lists that tell people these things? This is the grey area, we didn't call on the company we called on the implants and I hope we haven't done any damage, but what we have done and what the p And these things move from time to time as well of course Yeah I know but nothing's happened since that time to change what we originally agreed Yeah but I mean I don't clearly remember an agreement like that meself and does I'm sure that was agreed at one of our meetings Well might do but I think it needs to be put in writing you know like who's is who's what you know Well we can start off with the top one hundred companies and allocate them like that if you want, if it makes things easier rather depends on where the head office is doesn't it? Well no the top one hundred companies isn't a guide to anything at all. What you mean top one hundred F T S E companies you mean? half of them don't even travel No I know but it can be a springboard Well the best guide is the one that's in the Travel Weekly that mag er Yeah but that' that's but half of them don't travel Oh you mean the Business Travel World magazine Yes that has Yeah that's useful No I think I think er it should be a national corporate account, the definition of a national corporate account it one that is multi-locational throughout the country Yes, exactly yeah That's the only definition and worth over x million pound or whatever total revenue or whatever their threshold is It's not throughout the length and breadth of the country it's only in my patch I agree, I agree The other grey area which cos in point cos that's only in your area innit Yeah as far as I know unclear No, no, because passed it over to us that's why I had to go and see the guy if you remember Yeah well Mar was un got, got the impression perhaps wrongly now that it was a national account by virtue of where the allocations were Well can we make it a clear definition please because national means, national in terms of agents and corporates means multi-locational and all represented is multi-locational doesn't just have one branch Yeah but it only has Norwich and it has Dagenham doesn't, that's it isn't it? Yeah those are the two big ones Well that falls in region so it's a regional account in my respect Yeah but it's dealt with by the national account department back in Bollocks to I don't care less about This is where the grey areas comes in Well I mean I don't care how they define their, their descriptions. We have to define ours separately No we said that's how we were going to define us, erm define it, I distinctly remember that being said it would be defined Yes but Things may change now but we've working on that basis We can't, we can't be driven by the definition that they work No but that's what we agreed before Well if we did unclear No I thought we agreed I don't remember that I've never seen it on any minutes I'm gonna pull out the minutes cos we did have a meeting, we had a meeting at which was present and that's how we defined it Oh well it was not a meeting that I was at then No well you said you don't want to be involved in the meetings anyway Well I wasn't there either was I? Well that's true, but what I'm saying now is regar I think national is national it's it's multi-locational and it across boundaries right If it's confined within the southern region therefore it's . If it's even lower than that it's local and it's area I'm not sure No I'm not sure I agree with that because I mean area goes right up to Birmingham from the south and it be made multi-regional, multi-locational accounts within Southern England and London which are big accounts What happens if we get one of the national agencies who's located in the opposite part to where the majority of the erm the business from the multi-location commercial account is? There's no point my people working a certain part of I beg your pardon sorry I'm getting my definitions wrong may be looking after something which the erm corporate locations are solely within the south but it's handled by an corporate account. Now surely that comes under or through No, it doesn't matter what the travel agent is when you're talking to the corporate The basis of our decision before was my people work very closely say take with the national account people in right, and the main objective there is to get as much business from the corporate accounts as they're responsible for like or whoever. If they're split, you can't have people from the field going into dealing with national account managers when my people are also dealing with them. That's the basis That's what's caused the grey area Yeah, that's not, that's where it's changed Well that is actually a problem from you know Cos you got Well the national account what you are saying is the national account if the work's for is then responsible for all those accounts that happen to be from the national account manager. That's what, that's what I thought we agreed Well no I thought we agreed that if it was in the southern boundaries, the locations it doesn't matter what were You can have that Frank, you can't have several different sales reps going into seeing different people and my people seeing them as well. You need one central point for each of the multiples Yeah well this is what's not, I mean we don't know who who those accounts are that you're dealing with where that's the situation Well you c I can get a list of all the corporate accounts that and have and we can go through them one by one Yeah We can't have people crossing over main problem at the moment is that they want one person to deal, cos at the moment we've got us dealing with national account and we've got dealing with the regional account managers and sales execs dealing with the individual branches and I think things are getting lost as it goes from one to the other It's a question of whether we adapt to their structure or or we have our own structure mm Isn't it, that's the question The other area was er the area of er tour operators and allocations because as you know holidays was not one of your accounts and we wandered in there only to find that they'd got allocations and business was Yeah, the reason that happened was that there was no-one servicing holidays erm and they came to us for an allocation and and we gave it to them. Had somebody been in there to see they would've spoken to them Well no I mean It's account isn't it? There was no-one covering that area Well Yeah, if if there's no-one covering that area then I have to make arrangements for that to be covered which I I will do and that will be . I don't think Well it seems like we've got the wires crossed in one or two areas I think the problem's been is the problem's been is that we don't want to let any business go and if it comes to us we take it on board means we'll be short of people which is not a bad thing yeah well quite I'm not trying to cast any blame here but handed over allocations on Innsbruck to at one time yeah and left us to carry the ball cos she sort of withdrew at one time Yes well I understand so on board Well er just hang on a minute I think that's what she You've got a meeting for the second have you? Well can you sort that out amongst yourself and then after you've done that then present it to the February sales meeting as to what you've done so everybody knows mm Yeah? Not least the girls in the office Yeah so it's absolutely clear even if it's a precis I think it'll be Cos you're right cos we don't want to get people trampling on each other. I think we're actually getting in each other 's way for the right reasons rather than the wrong reasons, like just said and it's not a question of somebody else trampling on others er cos I've heard this sporadically for some time. People walking in but we need to need to clearly define the areas and if it's that the national account department at has this list of corporate clients then maybe it makes sense that the national account manager responsible for deals with those also Yeah to avoid repetition you see we have to be a bit careful because what happens if we closed down right and transferred out to the field And then we have to change our structure Then we have to change again and that's what you're saying we have to be a chameleon Oh yeah, we'd have to adapt to the situation we find ourselves with Yeah cos they have, they have a tendency to do that sort of thing you see they're changing all the time We don't know what they'll do so Well I don't see , I don't know why we're, we're trying to No what I'm saying is the logistics, the logistics of servicing with a field of national account departments is going to be a potential nightmare But I don't think that means we have to adjust our sales structure to them it may mean that we have to look at theirs and decide who's gonna deal with what, but th but we don't have to gear all our structure Yeah well No but the national accounts department is set up to deal with the head offices of of the key multiples and national accounts. You take and their equivalents away from my people we're redundant and you might as well take it all over Britain. No, no that's not quite true Well it is. I mean for the national account person Well , I'm not saying Not necessarily, Peterborough should be the core Yeah, well that's my job Peterborough really because that's really just just the review every quarter. The core of the business and the business development is at and that's the main problems we've been having with because not co-operating Well maybe, maybe it's because the person that's been dealing with is not sufficiently au fait with Peterborough Peterborough's got no control over this is this is the problem Well it has, but but the level that we're pitching at hasn't the level at which It comes into yeah Well if we were into or into or then it might not be a problem Yeah well That's where it em , that's where it emanates from isn't it? Can't think for one minutes if for instance was interested in a deal with that he, that er that he wouldn't, only just to have flick his fingers and would crap themselves Well they don't really know Well getting into another issue Yeah I know we are but Yeah but I mean that's the way it's meant to work. That's the theoretical version of it. Most airlines I'm told by the multiples have one person who look after that camp and they go down from erm regional, regional level to regional sales manager. Now you Don't do that but then again they're slightly different I suppose somebody almost exclusively for national account manager who's specifically looks after and then go and see on a regular basis but call on them but invariably the accounts that those account managers deal with at erm will be split all round the country and will be controlled by our local sales executives in those areas Yeah I would've thought it was the job of the national account executive or whoever it may be to go there do the business, find out what's what and apportion that out to wherever it's most appropriate either to the field sales or or to whatever, because It's, it's a peculiar situation That would avoid a multitude of following people in one after the other Well what we don't want is What and I used to do There's people that used to meet there and go in and see them Yeah, crossing over We used to go see Well why don't , well why don't, why don't, why don't Well you see that complaint is that and myself are not actively seeing these regional managers, they believe that we should see them Well if if if if had their way they'd have in all their branches you know, I mean, you know that's Yeah, but I'm looking at how we're gonna this deal through next year because Well that's, well that's perhaps we shall Well you know I agree with ya and I think I think Yes we need to, if we're gonna do a deal. If we're gonna do a deal then we, we, we have some to drive it through but what I'm saying is that I think that if you have this meeting I, which is what February the second? mm then you argue the toss amongst yourselves really, but you've got, you have to well we are thin on the ground and limited resources so we don't want doubling up, that's what we don't want, doubling up, but I don't, I don't I don't think we should mirror just for the No but we have to look at what, what's a workable solution Yeah, well okay then we'll do it at that meeting and work it out then right? Yeah? Right then well I think that's the easiest otherwise we gonna waste a lot of time It must be in your tray cos I've only just got that today. Well do you want me to be at that meeting then? Well let us explore it first and see what the issues are and then if there's any dispute then, then you can call another meeting at the February sales meeting we can discuss it Well alright we'll do that that way Cos you don't need to get into the argy bargy Yeah but I'm not erm . I don't want to get into any argy bargy about anything particularly We'll see if we can come to a solution Well, yes you gotta, you gotta see the other person's point of view, you gotta understand the structure. I mean for instance is a national account at do any business with us, do they? Yeah, but we wouldn't target that account would we? Well you see,tha that's one element of it, right let me think of another one then er You can't, take your point which we've been trying to tackle at national account level Well is another one Well we've been targeting as well Well that, I've already has already done a deal with I know he has but that's one we're working on He's done with has he? Yeah, Aberdeen, in Aberdeen Yeah it's a national account Well you see this is where basically the criteria is what is the most, how is it most sensibly dealt with, right, cos you don't want a or somebody like that rushing all over the bleeding country going to Aberdeen one minute, Edinburgh the next No, but she's does work with . I mean the one is a classic one when she knew it was Scottish based that she passed any correspondence on to Maybe that's, maybe that's, that's the, that's the system I just think it's important that say at they have one reference point Well yes. They have one reference point and just that, but if it's related to an account then I only go for tendering of accounts like B T for example Well B T is a national account Well you could argue it is in area because No, no it's not because B T all over the country isn't it one agency point No it isn't Every single thing's through the one place now for B T. The lot Every, every single B T thing goes to the one location now Wasn't there a case when it was right? That's not the point the point is that er it doesn't matter which agency it goes through it, their multi-locational site, so that's why it's a national account. It's not just in my area they're all over the place in Scotland as well, so Yeah, we need to talk about this, because I mean when I saw he was upset by the treatment he got from I presume it was before, the way she dealt with him erm and he believed you know, he was big enough to be dealt with by the national accounts department. Yeah, but you know he's an old, I mean you know the guy he's quite an old, old fart basically he likes to be looked after But is he gonna give us any business? Well he reckons we're losing our business now because we didn't give him a deal Yeah, well I know but er he hadn't seen anyone, he reckons for well over a year and when phoned me up I agreed to have lunch with him and then he gave me an earful about all sorts of things including erm in Norwich issuing net fares on Norwich Amsterdam . You know this K L M deal, so obviously we hadn't got under the finger until called me in almost desperation Well phoned me about and I passed it to you Yeah, but nothing was done so he came through to me Oh well well he wasn't happy with what he'd received. had basically told him he lived in the Stansted catchment area and we didn't need to do a deal with him, and that's what irritated him Well on the basis of what was told by the guy she went to see at who was the key account manager yeah? er no some other bod who was dealing with the accounts at in Enfield. He got a letter on file, he produced a load of stats which were a load of bollocks and prove and proved that we weren't losing any business and then he they had a deal with us which was Eurobudget with no restrictions when they were based at Dagenham cos they were using right that, no the deal hasn't lapsed that's what we were trying to do Well according to him it has elapsed We told him it's elapsed because they're not at Dagenham any more and he doesn't like it. So he said oh, when he see me he said The truth will out here He's told you that you're not, we're not getting a fair share of the business with him, but the figures I see don't don't say that at all Well he reckons he hadn't seen anyone from for months Well that's crap I'm only telling you what he said Well I know but this is, but this is where we're caught with our pants down because we haven't got the thing when I spoke to about it she said that you told her to hand it over to my department cos it was a national account Well if it is then that's right, but it's not so if she had been told that well if it isn't yeah, if we, if and I thought it was national account which means it's a multi-locational site which it is mm then it's a national account, but in terms of the guy not seeing anybody we went to him to sort out what was going on and she must have come away there from with all the sites and said I shouldn't be dealing with this, it's a national account, it's the national account and that's when I said you must pass it over to then Well can we get this sor stuff sorted then, because this is gonna go on forever, because I I think to be quite honest it is a lack of communication between two parties I don't think it is I think it's in all honesty the corporates have taken decisions and we haven't got to grips with the corporate market yet fully Yeah well I know that's true erm and we've been power fighting and that's the problem I think those of you have genuinely erm defined what's been said in two different ways and perfectly correctly because I think, I think we need a meeting to get it laid down, we need a meeting to clear the air or not clear the air necessarily but get some definitions some definitions down yeah? mm cos we can't seem to be, cos otherwise we look like flipping idiots It's not fair on either of you or or your people either Well no All right Well that's the been the problem issue we've been struggling through on that basis But one thing I would say and I think this is very valid and think pe it won't be long before people start to pick up on it and er we haven't got a national accounts, a proper national accounts team cos we haven't got the people and we all know the reasons why but nevertheless you know they're, they're pinpointing areas of big business with big companies like and and not allowed to go into new business ah, hello No we have put a proposal to but they turned it down twice Yeah I know cos they said it wasn't good enough There's quite a few, there's quite a few national accounts Yeah,come out with look I mean right what happens any travel agent right will tell ya right that these are that there are huge corporates with massive opportunities for business in the corporate sector particularly on because they're used to saying that the reps and in the main will buy that because they'll be able to get something out of it. It's not the same for , different set-up and they don't understand us therefore they come out with statements like that No, this isn't this isn't travel agents making these statements this is us when we go and talk to say an implant Well it's the same thing as a travel agent Well I mean you can see from the stats, the figures and routes they fly that we get ten per cent when we should be getting twenty Yeah, but you can always establish why though like remember when we first went to see he reckons we were losing business. When we looked at the figures we proved that we wouldn't get any more business because of where people lived and when we tried to push them to Detroit over Amsterdam they wouldn't have it, people would prefer to drive to Gatwick. If there was ever a classic is about the laziest bastard on this side of Christendom and he and he he wouldn't do anything that supports your business at all We know, we never suggested that said that their business is going down with us and that there was no extra business there for us erm who was national account manager wanted us to relieve for an exploratory is that tea there? yes I think basically but how I structure my department would depend in all honesty on the type of people we get knows this. If we get first division people I'll do it a different way to him if I had to end up with second division people and the responsibilities they take on board will very much reflect that and the same surely should happen to the field sales force erm their abilities are reflected in in what sort of activities we give them and by looking at the people we have we then put together a team to most accurately attack whatever we want to do. I'm not sure how I'm going to structure the department, it depends on the people I get in all honesty Right, okay well can we just leave this for a minute please because we're not getting I mean it's not a major issue I mean it is an issue it's not a major issue it's just that there have been one or two occasions like where we have cross purposes but considering you know they are a relatively minor tour operator I wouldn't want that to muddy the water because that was just just erm a misunderstanding. What it does and I think we're also dealing with a with a with a, people like right and is probably arguably worse right who've never really had any sort of responsibility before and they not quite sure where the lines are drawn. And in a worse position than because the North they've never done any deals, never seen anybody, national accounts, done nothing in that area in terms of deals and negotiations and things like that and it was only six months ago that where could actually find out he could do deals. I mean that's the worst scenario than the one you got into Oh, yeah absolutely at least we were able and what they do is all this typical regimented structures and regimented bloody this and that run like the fucking civil service But we not regimented in this department we're flexible that's why these things are happening cos we turn our hands to whatever we believe is in the interests of the company. Yes I know that See what I mean but it cuts across, no there there comes a point where the of this world say oh am I allowed to do this, am I allowed to do that if you've been here for more than three years right and it's particularly prevalent in Scotland, oh are we allowed to do that, oh I didn't know and that's old that is. old to a certain extent you know, she's been around longer than has and been around but influenced by who's been around a long time you see that's where we get it, you see we don't get the initiative coming in that area we get we get the oh Christ, bloody hell let's shove that one out the way that's a national account. You know. That's what happened over , hadn't really dealt with big tour operators in the past and I think she got a bit nervous about it Well yeah erm and ended up dealing with it but that's not to say she shouldn't deal with it erm she just got to be trained how to deal with it She's put allocations on that list cos the other, the other field sales people don't see why they can't get involved with the tour operator who wants an allocation Well we don't normally do allocations I know It's only on Innsbruck that we've done it because that's what the market demands. We don't want pe I mean we don't want sales reps agreeing to allocations I mean at the moment we haven't got anybody to administer them it's being done by groups it's going to be a nightmare in a big way Well we've actually turned away I think that the best thing is that you er that the three er obviously there's . I think that's there's certain things implied from area and er and er there's misunderstanding coming from your area I don't think it's misunderstanding It is! Total misunderstanding from area. They're not quite clear at all. I can hear that just in the last ten minutes Yeah, I must admit I mean, I must admit I was talking to beforehand and not clear not sure on certain things. She's asked me Whose responsibility or whose, whose supposed to be that is irrelevant, it just needs to be cleared up. Okay All right moving on rapidly Before you do anything, I'm gonna interrupt here, tea coffee? Which would you like? Er black tea I was gonna say same thing. A lot of these queries, or some of it stems from the fact that we're also conscious of the fact that we can't keep passing things to Gary when he's only got one person wants to go full-time into erm groups and she's trying to do a one hundred and one different things. Can we not say that we say if we don't have agreement by the thirty first of January we can take someone like who we've already identified who will do the job for the money and take at least one person on pending a decision on the salary increase? I think we've got to Because we need at least one person to do it, it's go it's getting out of control now I think we'll have to take a person internally Do you have sugar, Gary? Well is the strongest internal candidate Sugar? Yes, please Well let's Do you see what I mean I don't want this to drag on and on No, no, well I know that and I know Even if I can get rid of the the tour operators erm or put somebody like onto because we got up and running now and I haven't got anyone to deal with it Well I think your group selection thing with the internal candidates that's all gonna take time again isn't it? No, that's what I'm saying, we've identified one person who'll join us for the summer. If we don't get approval to increase the salary by the thirty first of January so I can have the two people I want can I appoint this lady and bring her on board cos I know she'll do a reasonable job in a certain area? Well I think you've got to, I mean Don't say no please because things aren't getting No I agree with that, I think you've got to yes we'll agree that and also hopefully by then we'll have clarity the clarity on the salary and then we'll get in there in which case you're laughing, right So we'll say deadline by thirty one January. If we don't get agreement we take on this lady from Oxford Because internally we still haven't got anybody that shines out have we? Yet That's why I would like to do a group assessment erm but yes long term Group assessment though is is a luxury isn't it at the moment I think for a day's er work it's worth assessing the three top people identified with the six outside people that I've identified who are you know in the next division down to see how they compare. I think we owe it to people like or at least to give them another crack at the whip to see if they've come on in that interim period cos it's a good six months since we interviewed Well I don't think we owe it to them we just delivered them a nice big salary and they've got more than enough work to do. I think we were in that situation six months ago, I don't think we owe owe those three candidates anything now Well do you think? Would you like to see them in against the outside candidates if we look at this I think it's not very likely though is it, Christ Almighty we're talking here about getting people on board to help you out the assessment are bit academic right well if we haven't got the decision then by the thirty first of January you're agreed we can offer one job to from ? Yeah to do the leisure things? Yep Alright And then if we get agreement on a salary increase then we only have to pay it to one person Well we've only got one person to pay it to Well no, we got two in the sidelines, we got this Indian guy who was not coming for a second interview until we can say we'll pay him Well you don't know I mean you don't know, you might say right twenty grand and then he might say oh no I've re-considered I want twenty two and then he might say I'm not gonna turn up. He might turn up he might turn up and then say no sorry twenty grand forget it, don't want to work for you anyway. It's all a bit iff in the clouds Can I just make a point this thing about salary because I know we can't people we want at the salary and all the rest of it but then there's, if we're go if that's the s if we're now saying that that's the salary for the job and there's no no way in my conscience rests clear really that we should just pay that to one person It isn't, it's not ideal I mean I've got a problem with Well he's happy and I can't see any way out of it well I want the best people for the job and it if means I gotta pay one or two thousand more But I'm not sure that's right I just, I mean I spent three years It's not right we know it's not right it's the fact that it's an expedient measure. We need staffing, people in that area and she's an internal candidate that's come through, she's done a good job right and and now she's you know it's not right but at the moment it gets us over a q over a quick fix You can always red circle that salary at a later date and hold her increases down against other people. There are all sorts of options But as you say, it may never happen anyway. Anyone else think we should bother about that yet? No but it's all tied up with this role of national accounts It's dragging on too long Yes a tricky issue but I think we've got to get to grips with it Well we can get to grips with it at this meeting when you talk amongst yourselves er as to how you divide up the base accounts yeah? But we can't get that meeting any earlier for you No well as well as an issue But there's, there's people people holding a shotgun to our heads saying yeah I'll come and do this job and I want x. We've been all through that we've got the salaries re-graded and we don't pay a bad wage now Well not at national account level I've seen lots of people now and I'm sorry We've let five people go who would have joined for another two grand so we mis-judged the grading of my people when we reset the salaries. The evidence is there in abundance We got it there or thereabouts for sales executives right? the area development exec job but we didn't get it right we were two grand adrift quite clearly demonstrable evidence that we were two grand adrift on that pay and I've asked now to agree to upping the pay level and if he does we might get some decent people and then we worry about the ramifications of that afterwards, yeah? But that's always the way it is in Yeah You go for a quick short-term fix, right? Yeah, there are, there is another quick, another quick short-term fix is promote people from within Good luck to them, I'm not convinced in my own mind and I mean we've interviewed these people that there are people internally ready yet, that's why I said perhaps we should Well what're you saying then , what are you saying that, are you saying that is now ready? ready? In an ideal world of course they're not but but I'm saying if if you're looking for a quick fix then that's a quick fix. You say there's three candidates there who get, one who is actually earning the money that we pay and two that aren't, the quick fix is to say right we given you an opportunity to do this national accounts job at the same salary for six months, see if you can do it, and if you do it we confirm the salary. Now that's a quick fix and hasn't cost anything, hasn't put anybody's nose out of joint and It has cost you No it hasn't You've lost all your back-up a very high proportion of it on your own team Have I? Sorry I thought you were talking about two He says you've got one that would join at the money and can do the job My top objective is to get on board because I believe she is the best person for the job. I've worked with her now for nearly two years and I think she'd do an excellent job. Now she may accept if the salary is not confirmed, a lower salary. I mean we've got to offer it to her and see what her ultimate decision is. She could be bluffing we don't that do we for certain erm yes we have got one who will accept the salary yes we could take one from outside the field that's why I wanted this deadline so if we don't get the increase in salary by this date we can then start planning and take on board the second tier level Because there's no doubt I'll find somebody to do a field sales role Oh that's two a penny Well they're easier, I'll find somebody easier Well it's easier to recruit at the lower level than it is the upper Yeah, so I mean But don't forget this this is a very important time with the all the increase coming in they've got a helluva lot to take on, not just learning the company but they got the new routes and everything and it's going to leave I would've thought very short in an exceptionally busy period No more short than I'd rather had the people I can survive with one person, one person down from the three that you've got just moved from sales hasn't she I, I've I've put forward I thought didn't want to do it anyway Due to location where she lives Do you think she wants to do it? Yeah not 'alf Yes Yes, she very very erm keen to give it a go You see we've gone from paying these people twelve thousand to fourteen thousand to eighteen thousand in six months do you See what I mean, you don't pay her that for six months, you say to her right this this is the score, we will review this first July nineteen ninety-four Would you pay her an interim amount? No we can't, she's on trial . If she hack the job she gets it if she can't she goes back to what she was doing Okay we'll give it until the end of January then. If we find we can't get an increase in salary In fact you're in a stronger position now because then you can say she's not s she's not suitable and pass her back Well you're in a stronger position than if you take somebody on and find out six months later that they can't do it, where you gonna put them? Okay we wait until the end of the month and see if comes up with the salary and work along that basis Why is, do we know why he's taking so long? Who? He hasn't. He's not taken that long. I only asked him the other day Oh beg your pardon sorry I didn't realise gone you see yeah I mean if this had all sort of come before left we'd have got it through no problem Right Unfortunately the bloke decided to leave too early Erm well one way or the other it's got the result I'm quite happy to do that take and and put on a six month's trial if we don't salaries through Well something's gonna be done Which is this? This is an outside candidate Oh beg your pardon I'm sorry I thought you said internal right You see, I must admit you see not I don't gonna do as good a job as don't think she's gonna do as good a job and that would definitely make it. If we got internal candidates well water's gone under the bridge since then Yeah Water's gone under the bridge since then be fair did not perform well there's no question about it and we have worked with her in the field erm she wasn't she wasn't brilliant No she She got a , I think she got a bit of a shock you know she actually probably thought she was better than she was and a lot of people had been giving her a lot of pats on the back and I tell you where half of that emanated from was down the corridor. and other various tosspots who were sort of giving her pats on the back and they were making all sorts of slurping noises about her, weren't they? erm salivating Somebody else did, somebody else said something Yeah, wasn't it Yeah that's right saying oh what a great person you've got. Totally uninformed judgements yet again clouding the issue. She probably had a real great impression of herself right she did and then when she turns round and we said well I'm sorry and said well sorry no got a bloody big shock, gave her a shock to the system and to be quite honest what I've seen of her since then has been a darn sight more er spruced up and a bit more on the bloody ball than she was before Yep Witnessed at the Tottenham Hotspur game and er Tottenham Hotspur game what else played a role in that is the two people going Yes which is a nasty shock shock for everybody and the and the course she was dynamite on the course, she was cruising on the course yeah but she also, that we a tough course and she was very ill at the time was it? so I mean she's, she's she's and I said to her when when all the things were going wrong with I had to have a lot of chats with her and said well you you've got to prove that you can rebound from this Yeah you've just taken a knock you didn't get the job, it's not to say a job won't come up again now what you gonna do give up or keep trying? And she's kept trying and that's what makes me think she's got I got it here But she's not, I'm not saying she's hasn't got a lot to learn Yeah, but she's only got as much to learn as the girl that girl seventh of Feb seventh of Feb You can make a judgement after that, if you're not impressed after the Have you worked with her in the field? with the greatest respect you can't actually cos you haven't worked with that many of them have you? But horses for courses you see there are not an option cos he won't move from Scotland and there's not reason why he should do and so you can forget anybody north of forget anybody in area if you don't think that the girl that you've interviewed is gonna do as good a job as Well it depends in which area This girl's quite switched on on the tour operator side Well she's worked she works for a tour operator, she worked for a she's worked in a number of different areas she hasn't gone out and sold it though has she?for one or two fairly decent names er Yeah well her her travel experience is fairly late Yeah but I mean that's not necessarily an issue I mean what did she do for B M W cars? Sold cars, it's nothing like what we're doing She's financing on cars Well it's nothing like it is it? Well you see in an ideal situation of the six people I've got on the second list there's better quality people there but they've got absolutely zero experience but we're not the sort of company who can take these people on and train them really I'd agree with there So you know we're stuck between a rock and a hard place Yeah but at the end of the day is she is she better or worse than ? Yeah I would've put them on the same level in all honesty where do you put them then ? I would go for every time better the devil you know for that reason alone really In many ways I wish we'd taken on that girl now who we saw right at the very beginning with Fucking hell what ? Oh I don't think she was right either sorry old son Yeah you see but when I was seeing them one after the other tens and twenties you don't see the dross you see Well I know I don't see . Nobody's criticising you nobody's making I'm not making a criticism of her cos at the end of the day right if we now talking the scenario that we're painting now let's take this girl on, not girl girl on right, you can have cos she's far more impressive. You would have had, if you played the scenario back, take yourself back in time when we interviewed this bird you would have had well I would have had her Well I gotta say I I I Not in the biblical sense but you know what I mean I was quick to snap her up before you changed your mind she wasn't right for national accounts at that time she'd been good in the groups role yeah but you haven't got the right people now have you? He hasn't got anybody now No what I'm saying is we'd have the right people if we pay more money, that's the core of the problem That's moving the flipping goalposts isn't it? I think the thing you have to say that as far as I'm concerned, from what I've see of her so far and I haven't worked with her in the field yet but far brighter spark in your department than that one we interviewed the other day All I'm saying is I've got to have people, I've got confidence in me because at the end of the day I'm responsible Well this right well I know that I know that . All I'm try we're only speaking from the best interests here, speaking from the bloody heart rather than the head probably here but we we do want th we do want the best but it's the old old story, it's botching it up isn't it, it's fudging it, it's trying to fit a square pet into a role cos we pay crap money y'know Yeah, if at the end of the day it's a quick fix then Yeah, quick f if a the end of the day it's a quick fix we may as well take somebody we've got Yeah, exactly cos at least they know the culture culture, they know what an agent looks like and they know what a tour operator looks like and they know and they know one or two other people around and so on and so forth They also know what's expected of them Okay, we'll set the deadline at thirty one January Right okay Do you want to dictate it to me ? it was agreed that thirty one January would be set as a deadline for recruiting national account execs, pending a salary review Are these national account or key account Key account Key account Thank you. Right I'll just put national account execs, key account execs, right okay Alright well I think well I think actually well I know we've droned on about it for half an hour but I think it's worth a discussion to be quite honest, don't you? I know it is, it's not exactly doing a lot for me either but er cos it gets raised every bloody management meeting but I think having discussed the matter we've actually opened ourselves out a few more options than we probably thought we had Yep Right? And I think that's It'd be nice to have and say in together Well let's see you see at the end of the day will probably suit you better er cos she's quite mature isn't she for her age? Yeah That's just because she's married to an older man basically er she's I know it's a sweeping generalisation but it is it is a fact that and and she's more your type What does that mean? Well, she's quiet and quite steady Well we have to be we have to be because erm I know you do it's not don't get touchy old pal, it's not a criticism. You do in account management is a different discipline than field sales. Account management is a a lot about files and backup and administration and sorting this out and sorting that out. Yeah it is, it's going out and doing the business as well but it's gotta have a lot more intellectual input er in you know in terms of having a having a greater insight into how a company works, how an airline operates, how the marketing department operates and so forth. Why do you think I why do you think I gave you the fucking job eh? National accounts department. You know. would've struggled in that job. He'd be the first to admit it. I'm struggling in this one You know it is you do need that quality people who have a bit of insight but got a lot of those Yeah She's got a lot of those what what's the word? Skills Not necessarily skills, she's got a lot of those erm Disciplines? Erm Do you think they've come on then since we interviewed here? Cos it's sad in my opinion that going back to where we were several months ago because we set out out to attracting higher quality people paying them more money and we've come back again to basically seeing the people who we saw in the first instance Yeah, but time's have changed . Things have changed since then. You've only gotta look in the back of the T T G because there's now four pages of jobs compared to half a page that's why all these people can now ask for more money. Eighteen months ago they wouldn't have been asking for more money They wouldn't have dared. Well you wouldn't have got and er when you did No, exactly, no You wouldn't get them now. You wouldn't get them today Wouldn't get them today no Tell you to stuff you know, get stuffed I think I think we know where we're coming from there and I mean that's worthwhile. Point six, he says quickly, what does that mean, point six? Point six means that wh just to remind you that when we had the sales conference we did promise these Yes, I know, I remember that, that's what I thought it may be. I thought about it last night and I was laying awake all last night thinking about it So was I I think we I think the only way we can actually really do this is is to pick one from area, one from your area, one from area and one from Europe and just have er almost arbitrary er decision but justify it. Fucking hell We have to come to an arbitrary decision and then justify it Yes, so it looks kosher And I think what we should have is a fifth person which is an outstanding sales award or something like that which covers all regions cos in Europe you woul you wouldn't vote for any of them would you? I don't think there's any question about that We'll make a case that he can't. We'll kick him in the groin if he questions it Your area's got have one, got have one erm and we have er one I think deserves something er I think erm one other person may be deserves something, who that is, God knows who. But I mean is gonna struggle cos he ain't had many people for very long, has he? The only person he's had through the tr the turbulence and turmoil of the last year is and you wouldn't give her a You wouldn't give her anything, should have it I don't see what's wrong with frankly, she's been through it all and she's hung on in there Which is a very er don't pre-judge it has gotta decide, you've gotta decide your area , that's one north, one south. Europe?well we could beat about the bush but there's not a single rep on the road that ever gets out the office so gotta win it cos I actually saw I actually we I actually saw her go out and see a customer so she must she must be er she saw two with you? Well she saw six with me right, that's eight times more than any of the rest of them have seen so I mean that's er That's not fair does a good job Yeah so er is a waste of space so and he works he works for so er that's stuff it You pick who you want but you gotta justify it and er and then so so okay, for arguments sake you pick say, for arguments sake picks . is picked in er Europe er that's three. Er outstanding achievement award er dreamt up title say er and then runner up to that or something like that or something like that, yeah? Yeah? I think that would be a good mix actually And then you got five, yeah? Yep Well we promised them a week in Bali, didn't we? How the fuck we'll get round that I don't know What, the five of them together, unaccompanied? No, the five plus partners we said, didn't we? Plus partners yeah And there could be one outstanding person of the year telephone sales which God knows I wouldn't wanna pick that. Dear oh dear. Who'd wanna pick that? I think they oughta drop res out of it. It's too complicated isn't it? Can you image one sales agent getting a flipping prize like that?mental, there'd be a riot. So that was that point, was it ? Yep So let's say we award five, five categories, shall I put that down? Five categories of award for nineteen ninety-three performance er awarded at sales conferences, yeah I actually think that, I know it is more complicated and messy but I think that she should pick someone from res. I think you've got to keep er you've got to keep that momentum going because Yeah well I'll speak to about it by all means but I'm not quite sure how the hell she's gonna be able to do it. Yeah? know it's difficult No it's alright there might be a way I mean I could be wrong, I could be wrong I know it is more complicated and messy but I think that she should pick someone from res. I think you've got to keep er you've got to keep that momentum going because Yeah well I'll speak to about it by all means but I'm not quite sure how the hell she's gonna be able to do it. Yeah? know it's difficult No it's alright there might be a way I mean I could be wrong, I could be wrong. Right , having put them under the banner, clear banner of sales you know Yeah To be excluded and then you know when all the glory's around there's no-one there again. I'm sure that's that's gonna work against what you've been trying to do since you got here. You know, maybe we pick someone from groups who've been doing a lot of good work lately, perhaps or something or you know some something like that, just er so they're not left out the frame You're gonna want to support someone in groups aren't you? Sorry? You're gonna want to support someone in groups with the changes coming on board, know what I mean? Alright, alright let me speak separately to about that. What about er then ? well the have agreed the contract. Er I did bring it with me to give to but obviously I'll have to send it now. I've got the phone number er it's just a case now of er getting on and getting it advertised and marketing it but it's all been signed Is the ledger line? Yeah Are we marketing it then? Through all the literature the produce not doing a brochure then huh? Oh got to produce a few sheets of stuff and we've gotta get the addresses of the bases and get it distributed and it's a task I'm gonna pass on to But the don't do their own brochure th ? Yeah, they do services, booking services, yeah. We we he's giving us free advertising in there for issue anyway W where do they ring? What number do they ring? Erm I don't want the number, where is it? Norwich Oh, it's in Norwich, is it? Yeah, they wanted to put it in Norwich Well fair enough I just hope she's got it right cos I've explained it all to her and sh Well to be quite honest I think the reason she wanted it in Norwich was cos Glasgow're over-loaded as it was I think and they had to learn new skills and staff support and therefore it might not be a good idea to have them as well Right so that's fine so I've got the number, I've got things signed, they've got the rates, can handle it you know, she's all ready to go and get the advertising in and that should start And when does that start then? Well it's it's it's started really What do you mean, it's started? Well at first of February Is it? Yeah, paper work's all been signed now And what's it called, Leisure Line or Yeah, Leisure Line Alright okay Cash er cheque or credit card and then I said to you that's really some it's really a special market that, Leisure Line. it's a special market Well no not once it's set up, it runs itself, doesn't it? Well someone's gotta liaise with the , someone's got to make sure that re erm res are up-dated with rates Yeah, but rates just get so whenever we up-date those they just get the new rates Yeah, but I mean someone's got to open it They're not getting I T A flights, they're getting for full fare, aren't they? No no mega passengers Cor this looks a good deal It is a good deal, that's why Fucking hell is not as generous as that I know it's not full fare is only flights , ours isn't What d'you mean it's flights? it's any flight, thirty percent off, our is off-peak flights class plus a ten pound booking fee So I can't remember everything you know Ten quid booking fee I got out of them as well so it's better than Ten pound booking fee? Yeah, per booking, not per passenger, per booking So they're gonna pay ten quid for booking? Yeah Well aright I'm k I've just had long had long memories of the . You've done well, I think you, so what has the said then, is that a national account or is it? Well I suppose ultimately it is if they use the yeah. They come in as a net fare operator Someone's gotta organise all the literature and the Oh well maybe you discuss that at your meeting on the second of February yeah cos er where that lies with I'm not bothered who it lies with to be quite honest Er, so what you're saying basically on point seven then is it's all tickety boo is it? Yeah Yeah Open for business Open for business. Cor I've heard that phrase before. It's only taken two years to Staff travel policy part eight erm well. made his comments about that. Does anybody really want to have a twopennorth on the erm staff travel comment cos cos , had her twopennorth, put this together brilliantly before he left Where is it then, where's the These documents, I mean it deals with ev everything apart from the main things about One of the big changes that they propose is that should be put on an exact par with within . Not th not talking about travel on other carriers but within The service charges well Standardising service charges for tickets er things like firm concessions God Almighty erm who is going to decide whether denim suits look quite smart I put that suggested that they be allowed as they can be quite smart something from the seventies Dress. We should seriously look at modifying this rigid code of dress. Some sports jackets and denim suits are quite smart and these would be quite acceptable to the group of companies. What is not acceptable are jeans with holes in the knees etcetera. Oh when we travel with other airlines you must abide by the specific code of dress. You're gonna really cloud the issue if you if you s if you say denim's allowed. Go on, tell him what I said directors Yeah directors policy would be dealt with separately. This was in paper. Entitlement for directors to be reviewed separately, right, it says here. As none of the directors are shareholders in the group right, surely they are employees? Yes they are Quite right Anyway, it's a bit of a can of worms that to be quite honest I'll collect my P forty-five later on . You should be so lucky. Have you seen a pencil sharpener in here? He's obsessed by pencil sharpeners this guy You should get a proper posh pencil like I have Yeah, these ones keep breaking Well you should get one like this Cos this one just detached out like that you see, the pencil sharpener's on the end Oh that's clever Just sharpen it up, put it back in and retract it and you've got a sharp pencil. The business Well I got given these when I was a rep at when I started, ten years ago and I've still got half a dozen of these you know. That's that's the difference between us and That's not the only difference pencil fill out your order forms Ah yeah Cos there's computer-generated and picked up graphite from pencil Yeah cos I notice you do everything in pencil in your diary, don't you? That's right and er They did actually, I've lost the clip. It should actually have a clip so that you stick it in your inside pocket Has one got a rubber in it as well? It's a clutch pencil, the business. This is this is this is yonks ago. We're talking about, oh fifteen years ago maybe . Fifteen years ago that's the sort of technology that we were . We even got round g we even got round to giving them mobile phones. We haven't got a fax in the sales office yours truly did a bit of negotiation on that this week but more of that later maybe when we have er we haven't got any A O B's so while we're on that subject I did just ask, out of the blue faxed across to Stansted cos she's waiting for it Oh yeah I'll get one of the girls downstairs to do it, can I? She's gotta fax it over to Southampton cos I've got the master Southampton? It's twenty to four Alright, well I tell you what, we'll have a break then for five minutes because er I forgot I need to phone the office I need to go home Sorry? I need to go home Go home then you're bloody welcome. Told to go home What have we got left? Sales services,? Half an hour Right this phone? d'you reckon? Hm, hello there, could I speak to please in the sales office? the puffy lunch Where's that bloody pencil sharpener thing gone? I asked for it on Wednesday, she's gone me one, she put in this bag and Oh, well we'll see if I get chance later on I'll phone, alright?oh that can wait. I'm gonna come in first thing Monday thought cos I've gotta pick some things up right. But it's a ten past ten flight, I'll be left by half past nine so I'll be there for half an hour Oh yeah, sales merchandising company yeah? Oh yeah, oh yeah, oh does he really? Well forget him then. That's a sales representation company. We don't want any sales representation in Belfast. We've got somebody that'll go over there once a m once a year is enough for the business. Yeah yeah. D'you want do you? Alright, that's it then apart from that right okay, alright, I'll put you on to then. I'll see you later. I'll see you Monday morning then, have a good weekend. Alright dear. Bye Hello alright? Pencil sharpener I've been search for it and here it is look at that, two in there, that's the new one Oh, they've half-inched it have they? Oh dear dear, can't have that eh? Valuable commodities pencil sharpeners Talking about valuable commodities, when are we gonna get on to the subject of oh dear Excuse me excuse me boys we have er we have a rare opportunity here to have er a bring the sales meeting to an end where we will resume in the sub-committee, the third party in the sales office users sub-committee You realise you dragged me away from one of my important I A T A meetings today? He's never missed one since he hasn't missed one since the second world war Was it? Oh well done, all you gotta do is find the agenda now. Okay then we'll see you some time over there will I? Right okay great yeah yeah right okay lovely. So you s you just stay in the morning eh? Right that's it fine. Fair enough, thanks a lot, see you later, bye. Right, well back to this please. Final final sales update Very quick, erm for the new route to already got all his plates for Munich, erm we're under negotiations with to go in there? Well we're trying for first of March. I don't know if accounts'll be ready because they've got to set up new bank accounts in Norway and Denmark and accounts with the credit card companies in both of the countries separately. Erm, as far as we're concerned we can get it under way. I'm seeing on Tuesday to see how he wants to g us to go about it in Norway. I think because we're going to have lack of erm secretarial setup erm in either country Denmark is a priority we'll almost certainly erm use the contractor over there, the recognised contractor, both for supplying and servicing all our planes. It's erm a modest cost. I'll do a complete costing on it but I think er the only thing is of course there are so few agents total. We're talking just under two hundred in Denmark and just under three hundred in Norway it may be cost-effective for us to do it ourselves with initial distribution from Stansted and maybe a local person doing any new distributions but I think in all honesty it will be as cheap for us You see because does that Erm I think accounts are gonna be pushed f pushed for the first of March. queried whether we really needed to be in it and I told him that sales wanted it and the reasons why we wanted to be in erm even the fact that it was going to k erm give us more accounting work erm whatsisname what bank is it? Yeah There are four banks in all and that means extra accounts and what are you going to do with all that money? I said remind you that all money at the moment goes either to first which isn't quite so bad cos they're family but a vast amount goes into and , both of whom have therefore access to our commercial sensitive, for want of a better term, information and we want to control that. We want to put it back in to . We also want the money quicker which erm I would have thought would more than outweigh any of the so-called extra expense that you've got and er I said we regard it as an essential sales tool to be get m better recognition in the country so er he is progressing with the applications. As regards the purely administrative side, I can see no problem at all, can see no problem. Erm, it's extremely highly automated both in respect of the agents and the reporting and everything which er says will actually be very good for them. Erm but what we will have to do is set up our local procedures as regards agents queries and things like that in both countries, both with and also whatever you decide in Denmark of how we run the procedure but that can be something later but what we'll need to do is no doubt before we actually do the distribution to the agents and the erm the information out to them th why we're going into on our own as opposed to being served by the other carriers. So erm that's really it. I'm not intending to do anything with any carriers as regards new stuff through the it's me. Alright dear? schedule, just in case we suddenly find we haven't got slots and yes, I got the message signed up and until they give us a firm this is it but there will be one or two quite good new opportunities I think. One or two of the long-haulers in Munich who are erm Copenhagen as well Copenhagen yes sorry there's existing ones but there's there's erm I think Malaysian and is it Denmark, somebody like that You got my note on Yes thank you Cos that's quite easy to set up No erm do they want it on er full and excursions? Two separate rates and do they want it net or gross? You need to contact that guy Okay so I'll t I'll talk to him direct Okay Erm but Stansted Paris and Stansted Frankfurt centre business trips and Really? Of course they've got the so they can go round the circuit Yeah Using us as the middle bit, it doesn't matter which airport they use? Cos we need to cos we need to sort of all hands to the pump next week cos we've got a big change-over Yeah but I know ink well no cos the leaflet he's got has only just been approved and it's going out next week yeah well I mean you're to ha you're to handle their enquiries er deal with their enquiries and then tell them to phone yeah yeah yeah but you see it's the mailing that's gone out and and then he's got to do some advertising first two weeks in Feb. Mailing's gone out. It's not really made it clear that it's for bookings and reservations as well. It's not made it clear. It says this is the only number you want but as read it and said well it doesn't really make it clear it's for reservations and bookings and it doesn't really so we'll just have to make sure that it damn well happens on the advert. The other thing is I need er we need to monitor the source of er informations reg information regarding the cordless phone promotion so I've devised a form which I'll get faxed yeah in other words, where did they find out about the promotion. Right? Oh other people. So when they phone up your girls and they say oh I I've seen this promotion about a cordless phone I want the girls to ask where where did you hear about it? Well I've desi I've got a special form for it Mhm yeah right okay and we well this is this is a different type of form and it needs it we need it more specific. We need to know whether it was from the Mail on Sunday or the Sunday Times, from the television, all those sort of things and it's just a simple form, they tick a tick a box. Right so I'll I'll post that up to somebody right. Well I'll I'll fax it first thing in the morning on Monday right or somebody will so you can get it y'know we just need to monitor it for a week and that's it. No longer so just to get a feel f she lacks what I would call sales technique Yeah but it was well it in until two days before Christmas that's one thing she has done more of in this last six months structure. If I showed her this you know what you've done there yeah well I mean I wouldn't and a number have had two or three on time saver with the incentive I can't see the reason No, but she works from home, she's got got an advantage she got a fax at home yeah well that's probably not a bad thing. No well I don't want anybody going round saying that the phones have been inundated in Norwich because we because we haven't circularised the number properly cos that's our fault not anybody else's come in every day does she, not if she's got calls to make from home I don't mean today I mean if she's going in to London or something you know she's got a base in London to do something in the morning before she goes on a call as opposed to some of them who haven't got a proper office space Well it will be for a for a month at least until people find out the number running a social club Well I mean the sort of like in Reading will probably only call once every blue moon Yeah but you've got a situation where there's and and sort of and th she's not gonna tell is she?th what's going on all that off her own back y'know, only a little thing but she's doing that as well Yeah I don't know you'll have to Yeah Yeah well b well what I'm trying to say and I can't emphasise it too strongly is that I don't want anybody going round like writing another stupid letter to somebody saying that erm you know the reason we're inundated that it hasn't been advertised properly cos I tell you what it'll come back right in our faces cos it's our bloody fault Well that's right well we know that I mean I told them all I told them all quite clearly when I was up in Glasgow that they'd be quiet for at least a month because p it'll take time to filter through. You know, the number and I mean hasn't been able to get round to buying space in the T T G and Travel Weekly until the first two weeks in February cos we were so late in informing him I must had this conversation has taken away the brochure so there's not a copy here but we'll try and get hold of some as soon as possible but I mean they're mainly for Glasgow but had been been up there from R and D y'know and she said that the people up there didn't seem to know the slightest thing about interline how to deal with interline tickets and agency tickets and all that sort of business. Well I think that well what interline? oh good thinking. Well good th yeah right yeah. Well she c well when she came down there I mean she wasn't trying to score points or anything. I just think that she was genuinely worried that they didn't seem to know a lot about it. I said well I thought well has been up there been up there er I thought had been up there a had been up there? Yeah Now that's that's not account management in the same way that isn't it? well between the two between the two no the only between the two in Glasgow is that you've got to cover it all anyway Whatever. I mean if Glasgow breaks down for I mean if the pros get called out for two weeks it's not gonna make a big deal of difference at Norwich. But you know what's gonna happen. Some arsehole right is going to pick up and say oh well I phoned up this and y'know and then phoned the bloody managing director based on a two for one that's hundred and ten quid yeah well exactly that's wh yeah that's what I said alright that's what we that's what we sold right no anything like that again just yeah well you know it's okay well you know I well you know yeah it's just that it worried me about this meeting here and three people out of the five people in the room didn't realise that it was a reservations and booking service. They thought it was an enquiry line that was yeah well it just shows you though doesn't it? It says it's there is a moral in the story as they say. Well you can never you never assume anything and thought it was a reservations line oh was sorry it wasn't a reservations line and that it was just an enquiry line. Well I know I know is the only one that realised I would've been more shocked if had yeah I would have been out on the pavement here whistling with a banjo whistling Dixie there you are that one no not yet no. No it's er the initial the initial report that's gone back has said that you're gonna have a bad knee very shortly but apart from that you'll be inflicted with some physical injury. Yeah well par for the course par for the course. Well I hope you're alright anyway. Put yo put your foot up y it's about time for Home and Away now so you've gotta get that on No I'm not I'm not starting to get worried dearest. Alright. No I'm only phoning you because you phoned I'm only phoning because you ph yeah yeah no no we've been here all the time and the phone didn't ring once well some houses some houses for sale in your village aren't there? Yeah there's one little minor adjustment that you y you might be aware you might need to be aware of. Due to protestations that er is g for the meantime is go in the interim is going to man Glasgow er on Saturday afternoons. Well he's just gonna make them stay longer isn't he? Well that's fine, don't worry we'll get round it. Just just for a couple of weekends to see how many actual calls we do get. Ah just a couple of people that's all two people and er they'll just have to get round it somehow but we don't yeah well you speak to him right yeah well they can have they can have what they want but I mean it might be just a short term thing. It depends it depends on how many calls we get but says that the agencies are all open on Saturday afternoons, you shouldn't get lots of leisure leisure bookings and yeah yeah I heard that No he no no way she didn't say that I could hear her thinking it then he could hear you thinking that he was a silly old git . Do you know this conversation's being taped? You've missed you've missed this today. You've missed this today. We're having a k our entire meeting's being taped for er for an interest of science in the interests of science for posterity for a survey on English language No no this is being done by a university or Longmans press or something like that, surveying the use of language in the nineteen nineties. However they can hear me but they can't hear you so that's no no no we've had a fairly usual frank and honest er discussion. Right okay. Right we'll leave it at that then. Have a nice weekend, keep on taking the pills yeah well you know what it's like y'know there'll be so many people dying for this to fail well they don't know what's going on but but all they'll get is one call interception which says I can't get through I can't get through, or I've tried this number and it doesn't work and blah you know usual thing but right I must keep on taking the Buffalo Bills. Yeah that's right. Yes Amsterdam no no no I'm cont contactable. I'll be contactable. I'll be in first thing for half an hour and then I'm off alright. I'll be in Amsterdam sales office for the af from two o'clock in the afternoon yeah There's a thrill for ya Alright cheers bye. Right, sorry about that chaps. Sorry. Right then Are you doing an internal notice on the changes to all departments, including the other airports and everything like that or who's gonna put that out? Well I was going to but I was I was hoping to get some news on er summer cruise cos I'm gonna do a whole sales department down in swops and changes first But I'm just thinking, the airport's should know and also the switchboards should know Well I told , knows don't look at me like that cos I know that that means No it's alright. I think that there ought to be a proper company wide inst or certainly U K wide instruction going out so that everybody's aware of the changes Alright. I'll send a note round then. You watch some bright spark will say I think you're gonna get that anyway whatever you People don't mind being referred if it's something that is genuinely but say they phone Leeds and Leeds don't know and Leeds refer them to a number they think it is and then they refer to a third number then somebody gets . If Leeds say it's not something we can deal with here, this is the number you ring and they've been told the wrong number that is a very bad impression and all the airports get calls constantly, as you know from B A days, so no matter what it's about people will ring a local number, no matter whether it's in two foot high capitals saying for enquiries ring this number Yeah Even though it says it's free for you to do it, they'll still ring up another number Alright so are we have we done point ten have we? Yeah Yeah. Point eleven. You've got the notes You you were just saying about us not knowing. There's my notes from the when I actually passed a repeat and we didn't say that travel agents sales were going to be done on that number. I wrote them down, trade enquiries, then I Don't you remember I stopped no you won't remember but I stopped because I was writing down exactly what we were doing Alright I won't repeat what said Thank you very much All I'll say is you missed a good lunch . Right, air passenger duty. Th the notes that're attached are actually for er he's been looking into the matter and basically it's for information only really It's completely comprehensive and really the only thing I would say in addition to that is er there are further meetings coming up. The next one is er got a meeting on it er I think the airlines are going on a very much a co- ordinated thing er I think most people are probably in agreement with this size eight exemption, make a group specific because really the idea when they put this original proposal in about the size of aircraft was to protect things like the and troops that are shall we say and I think most people would go for that line of thinking because as put in there, why the hell should something again on Cambridge when we can't on Stansted but it was really designed to protect certain things. Erm somehow or other it's going to come along and I think most people's thinkings are that it will be shown as a tax item on the ticket as are the taxes in other countries As you can see the erm, where is it, we've got to have, or the airlines have got to have their submissions in by the end of this month so if we have got anything really that we want to say from sales we ought to be letting have it in in a formal thing. Er the other thing I did mention is we're not the only people who have erm problems with typing. Timetables Did you know that I was the only one in the management meeting that picked that up? You were? I was the only one that picked that up, that I was incorrectly spelt And the other one that caught on second was which says something doesn't it? And even when it was explained to he didn't clock it. Really? No, he just looked at everybody blank I went to erm whatever her name is, no, is it ? Training cabin staff lady, I've forgotten her name Yeah. And said that really shouldn't our cabin staff announcements be changed to say, that the use of portable telephones is not permitted on the aircraft. She says it is. I said well will you please stop the girls saying the use of portable telephones are not permitted I said three flights that I've been on in the last fortnight. She said Stansted crew, I said yes, and Norwich and Glasgow. Apparently it is laid down as is but they're all saying are because they thing it's telephones are, not use is That's a good one for the tape isn't it? Considering they come from the pick and mix department at is that another one of phrases, is it? Oh it's a fill in, I thought that was sort of more like a personnel type phrase. queens the pick and mix department from oh brilliant. No, it's the personnel statement is well what do you expect from queens who can't talk proper While we're on the subject of can we clear no well that comes last. Please can we get on with the serious stuff please. Oh this is serious I'm sorry it is oh hang on a minute, wait til I've finished please okay sorry Right, last one then. Twelve, summer schedule ninety four. Does anyone want to say anything about that? I don't know cos we thought you'd be the only one who actually managed to get a copy when nobody else could lay their fice for the af from two o'clock in the afternoon yeah F finalised Well it seems that being a member of the luncheon club gives you some benefits Yes yes Is it worthwhile talking about it now or shall we leave it til next week? Probably best asked for a second rotation on Scotland to Amsterdam on a Saturday Yeah In fact, what they've done is split the morning service. Separate aircraft from Aberdeen and Edinburgh so that will double the capacity but it won't give us two frequencies of cost. So I mean that's that's Seventy five percent of solving the problem because the big problem for capacity was the in-bound on a Saturday morning which, of course, will be solved now Well we need to we need t there are one or two what I would call relatively minor scheduling issues that we need to keep a handle on and again it's the usual, it's the East coast and Essex stuff isn't it? You know, Teesside , Norwich that sort of thing. I mean, one or two, I mean t you've got a copy haven't ya of latest missive on this which was the twenty third of December actually about all these things. I think he went into far too much detail about it. I'm worried about this Amsterdam Amsterdam because it's obvious from paper Mhm right that have got a bit of a niche round about five o'clock from bloody Amsterdam and we're getting shafted. I looked at it, I looked at the er Yeah, it's a question of what goes up comes down. It's all the same stuff you know, we can't move forward unless it comes forward at the other end well you see there to seventeen forty and Stansted to the comparable er Yeah service is nineteen fifty. We're getting slaughtered on that and on the other way round. Th that's now what's the w what time is the fifth rotation? Seventeen hundred It's crap, it's in the middle of the day, it's a load of shit, never sell that. It needs to be it needs to be at one at four, one at six or something like if we can possibly do it In fact you know that's probably one of the only ways we can attack on this Exactly well it's look at this report. Of all the things that sprung out at me on the paper in this report that we could actually do something about was to slot in a fifth round about the five o'clock crunch time and taken them out the market but I do something about Er eighteen forty five to Stansted is ours, there's a seventeen twenty Yeah it's much better Well it's much more user-friendly schedule than we've got. They're four a day, we're four a day. We've got five a day. We've got one more than them therefore we should use it to our advantage. We haven't got the aircraft at that time, it's peak time Well why do we then shove it in a stupid s four o'clock job? Because that's when the seats are available Yeah well come on I mean we ought to be able to be a little bit more creative than that. That's one issue that I don't like. The other issues are Aberdeen to we're gonna get shafted again cos have got a different schedule now haven't they? They're going to today Yeah, are they? But aren't they going from seven o'clock nine o'clock or something like that? No No No, not now, our schedules are perfect with that they're planning cos I spoke to the other day Oh well Are they still ahead of us out to Aberdeen back to though? They're gonna be after us now Are they? before us but their plan now is to come after us on a D C nine Oh right, well that's not so bad then I'm happy so if we get on this. I'm not sure about the er I'm not sure what the issues are regarding Aberdeen Aberdeen short spain Yeah short which is what you suggested get this plane from and then we can probably er And we need to put an end to the rumour about Stansted I mean it's ridiculous Well this i that's a lunch club rumour because that one has not been to airport Yeah but that You what? You what? had meetings with airport Well I mean that's cos wants to keep the door open I mean by all means talk, Southend is the latest one over there so Stansted doesn't it? airport are desperate. were gonna do it weren't they? ? Well you can almost swim from there Just for the opening of the channel time, that'd be perfect timing for us wouldn't it? Just the sort of wrong time you know who wants to go somewhere when the channel tunnel Well has got to have something to do hasn't he? to justify his job because I mean he's talked to in the past, he's talked about everything. Can we fly er Stansted or whatever bloody hell towns there are, Stansted I mean it's Stansted Stansted every bloody place in that's got a sodding airport I don't think I It's a bit of poetic licence there but I think if an aircraft does come back it would be an ideal way of getting our market share back from by putting it on the east coast Well apparently our load facts according to I mean they're sixties all the time so Apart from where we've only got one or two Oh well crap yeah Yeah what I don't like about if they're doing Yes I know If if they're doing the business on they could be pulling off , that's what I don't like cos the airport's are too so close together, like it's too you know too er Right, shall we revert, I think more sensible to talk about this in the beginning of February yeah? Yes? Well, it's getting close Well it's up to the managers but I agree with Stansted four times a day, I think we're losing a lot of traffic because we have nothing between seven in the morning and three o'clock in the afternoon That that's Yeah the other ones on Saturday and Sunday I mean was tut-tutting that we shouldn't be using out of er Stansted airport, they should be jets What aircraft could we use for it ? Then will have twenty seven That would be too late wouldn't it for that though Twelve o'clock? Yeah, fourteen hundred Well I can't see why we want the other two but I can see Yeah this is at weekends. has already crapped himself about the visit cause extra work of course but er the er however we should er revert maybe we'll keep an eye on the schedule and things er but we we need to tie it up tight so we don't get a cos I mean what's being said now in the corridors of power is that the schedule is totally sales driven and it's the sales department that's put it together, I am only the administrator, I only I d I completely take my orders from the sales department quote unquote in front of everybody at the management meeting. looked around and said well he said looked at me said er well cos he was just about to g throw a wobbly and say, well surely the sales department should be dealing with this, should be should be giving him the information and he he just turned round and gave the aforementioned quote and I just sort of went yes it is. I said but you do appreciate there are some dead sectors in the timetable that wouldn't w that even the greatest salesmen in the world couldn't sell because they're precisioning sectors. And he said oh well that will always be the case, that will always be the case. I said well it shouldn't be the bloody case at all and that's when we got into the debate about er Aberdeen to er one following half half an hour after the other. I said well why the why the fuck does it do that? We don't need two services f for the from Aberdeen to one half an hour after the other. Why doesn't it cut out airport and fly one less stop you know. They said oh well we'll have to look at that you know Well they're doing that now aren't they? Take it to then back through according to they're they're they're according to I should say they've adjusted it that it's g it's not gonna go Aberdeen it's gonna go Aberdeen or even Aberdeen direct so which is pretty How many years have we been flying that route ? Right okay erm so there's the ref it's refinement rather than radical changes that we're talking about here really isn't it? I'm glad I'm glad he said that cos I'm having a bit of a problem on flights for the summer we want more capacity than which is trying to accumulate a record of how the English language is used in everyday context, like lectures, like in broadcasts, like in people's homes and so forth. Now I must ask you, I hope you don't mind me recording this thing. Does anybody not, does anybody object to me recording the lecture? Informed Consent and all that kind of thing. Erm now it says it says about Informed Consent forms. Now because there are too many of you to fit on the form, is it okay if like one person signs it on behalf of a group an and that's okay cos they want informed con who who who wan who wants to sign a form and be part of the British National Corpus? Okay go on, let's let's give it to yeah. Mhm, right, now that's that's that bit over with. It's interesting actually that it says on all the outsides of all the tapes Aston Business School so I'd just like to say for the benefit of the tape recorder and the British National Corpus, this is where the Business School ends and this is where Psychology takes over. We are a University within a University. Now, on the handout is says child sex abuse and that's what we g we're going to be dealing with today. Erm just to introduce the subject. First of all I suspect most of you are familiar with Freud and the infantile seduction theory and the way in which, pardon? Nev never heard of it, alright. Well, very briefly, the ideas was Freud in his early practice was getting stories from his patients that they had somehow been sexually interfered with or abused or something of the kind when they were very young, often by an older male friend of the family, a relative, or even their father and initially Freud thought these reminiscences were literally true. Subsequently he changed his mind, possibly in relation to pressure from outside, possibly in an attempt to make psychoanalysis more acceptable, possibly because he couldn't come to terms with the fact himself and he then came round to the point of view that these were fantasised seductions as he called them. He called them seductions, interestingly enough, rather than child sex abuse, as we would perhaps now call it. So erm seduction's one of these words that implies more consensual type activity, implies that it's sort of y'know kind of candle light and soft music and firelight and all that kind of thing but which it probably wasn't in most cases. Now erm I suppose more recently coming up the present, coming away from nineteenth century Vienna into erm I suppose really I suppose the nineteen seventies, nineteen eighties, people became much more interested in the issue of child sex abuse again and this wasn't really because of any great developments in clinical psychology or psychiatry. It the impetus came I think largely from feminism and it was perhaps a way of of y'know kind of erm because there was a great deal of interest, particularly in the seventies, in cataloguing and understanding the various ways in which women were oppressed and this is one of the things came to light and often through things like consciousness raising groups. It came to light that er a great many of the members, a great many of the people who talked about their early experiences reported some sort of abusive experience, either y'know er quite a short one that went on over many many years you know that er if it was some relative or friend of the family they were likely to have been abused for quite a long time in some cases. So that's mainly where the impetus came from and this gradually fed through into more academic forms of research, virtually fed through into popular consciousness so that erm you end up with, particularly in the late eighties early nineties, erm a great deal of interest in the media, a great deal of interest among professionals in s child sex abuse and child abuse generally. Maybe erm maybe our culture has particular metaphors, particular ways of understanding ways of human distress and it seems that very often when people have a rather non-specific distress these days, I mean it's very common to find that erm counsellors, professionals, will be looking in into people's backgrounds, looking into people's backgrounds for evidence of child sex abuse. People didn't use to do that twenty thirty forty years ago so erm child sex abuse is very much on the agenda, both of professionals and also on the agenda of people suffering from sort of distress for which they are receiving professional help because um that's one of the things which um I think more nowadays than before you find people encouraged to look for. Going back, we're jumping back and forth in history, this is all sort of fairly mickey mouse history really, it's just erm isolated observations and bits of information. Going back in history, however, gives us some idea of the often contentious and problematic relationships between childhood and sexuality. If you go back erm or let's go back to the second half of the seventeenth century, that's always a good time to go to erm when erm well it was just after the English revolution, just after the English civil war, the Charles the First had been executed. Around about a bit later they er Charles the Second was er came down out of his oak tree and climbed on to the throne and round about that time you found the childhood of erm childhood of Robert Walpole who was a famous politician in well first half of the eighteenth century. It was said that um when he was a baby his nurse used to masturbate him in the cradle t to calm him to stop him crying and er apparently this was at that time, so it was believed, quite a common way of of keeping infants quiet. Erm you sort of ah if you were in charge of infu infants you you played with their genitals. In the nineteenth century this all changed because opiates became much more widely and cheaply available so er babies were dosed with paregoric to stop them crying erm er and subsequently in the twentieth century that stopped and we do other things now. But um also in the eighteen century, the eighteenth century is quite interesting because of the way in which sexuality was conceptualised then. In the eighteenth century in France you have people writing like the Marquis de Sade er in this country people like John Wit Wilmotold of Rochester. Erm we have a we have erm a vision of sexuality which is often quite frankly abusive. Erm, it's quite frankly about abusing women and it's often the case that in the eighteenth century one's sexuality was considered to begin much earlier than we do now. That is, people writing in the eighteenth century that th you know um it was appropriate for kids to be introduced to sex when they were around y'know sort of seven or eight or something in some cases. Um, usually these kinds of writings were written by y'know kind of upper class white heterosexual men erm so er you can see where that kind of prospective was coming from, but er nevertheless these kinds of views were being expressed around about that time. That's why, at the beginning of the nineteenth century, quite a fundamental shift in how we conceptualise masculinity and femininity seemed to take place. At the beginning of the nineteenth century you get people like Jane Austen writing, writing about heroines with minds of their own, women who can actually think and talk and do all sorts of things that very often in literature women hadn't been conceptualised as doing before. Again, if you go back before about eighteen hundred, if you look at er if you look at art, you find that painters paint things entitled The Rape of Europa, The Rape of , The Rape of whoever it is and if you look at these pictures it's just people lounging around with not very many clothes on. There's no sense in that that er it's a crime of violence going on. It's really I suppose only in the y'know nineteenth century that the perspective starts to shift, the perspective starts to shift towards understanding rape as a crime of violence. So that erm perhaps puts erm some of sexuality in a little bit of a historical context erm and um I suppose coming into the nineteenth century though, nineteenth century, particularly the second half of the nineteenth century, in large cities it was notorious for child prostitution for um a whole rate of exploitative sexual practices that underlay Victorian respectability so erm all these um peculiar kinds of things seemed to be going on. So let's see. Erm, just to erm veer back on to the on to the handout for the moment. Erm on the first bit of the handout I've stuck a couple of definitions of child sex abuse on, just to um give you a little bit of context an and er give you some idea of the sorts of things that people have the sorts of ways in which people are defining this phenomenon nowadays. Now um I suppose in that context um one of the things that makes this perhaps rather difficult to understand is the way in which y'know kind of when you look at children playing, when you talk to children, they'll often express a good deal of curiosity about sexuality um both to each-other and to to adults. Er they'll ask questions about sex, they'll ask questions about parts of the body er sometimes kids aren't exactly au fait with the social niceties and taboos so they'll say totally inappropriate things in front of in front of elderly relatives who are deeply shocked and um all that kind of thing. Um nevertheless er there's a fundamental distinction made by most authors that to include children, to include apparently emotionally immature people, in sexual relationships as you would with adults is is fundamentally abusive. Erm, that is kids may express curiosity, kids may even be doing things that imply they're getting some sort of pleasure out of their bodies y'know they may be, as we used to call it when I was a child, playing with themselves, um they may be erm doing various things that er that give them some sort of bodily pleasure. Nevertheless, there's a fundamental distinction made by most authors that um y'know kind of up to a certain age involving kids in sexual relations with adults is abusive because of the discrepancy in power, because of the discrepancy in physical size, because of a whole range of social discrepancies. That is um kids are generally speaking encouraged to obey adults. Kids are generally speaking um encouraged not to refuse what adults are doing to them. Er this can work er to everybody's advantage when you're talking about medical procedures, when you're talking about giving people injections a encouraging people to eat their greens and er take cod liver oil and all these things which adults believe are are quite good and useful things. So it's very very easy in that context for adults to exploit children's compliance and er it's easy for kids to be able to not refuse adults' advances and I suppose that's why there's this business about erm y'know it's it's not possible for kids to give informed consent to sex. That's why er many authors insist on that aspect of child sex abuse, that erm apparent consent or even y'know when it seems that the child is expressing some curiosity about that these activities, nevertheless it's abusive. That's the um general er consensus in most of the things I've read in trying to find out stuff for this lecture. Erm another thing comes in. How do we conceptualise children's sensual activity? There are some people erm it was Liz Hall and Siobahn Lloyd who wrote a book called Surviving Child Sex Abuse and er they reckon that the construct of sexuality is something that's invented by adults. It's not something that kids are really privy to. If kids do things with their body that give them physical pleasure, that's more sensuality rather than sexuality. Sexuality is something that adults do. If you say, as sometimes judges in Court cases do, sometimes child abusers do, oh she led me on, she was eager and willing, oh she erm, well judges don't actually say it in the first person, do they, usually? Not in public anyway. Erm but er those those kinds of things mean that, according to Hall and Lloyd, adults are projecting their notions of sexuality on the children. Now, another thing that erm one should bear in mind I suppose in talking about child sex abuse, is the way a great many of terms are contentious. If somebody's been abused erm typically in the past they were referred to as victims. More recently, of course, there's been a lot of controversy about the term victim. Does it imply passivity, does it imply helplessness, so sometimes people talk about survivors. Now erm on the other hand, the experience of being abused may not give one a very strong sense of one's own survival. Er somebody said to me about her childhood experiences, well I didn't really survive them, I'm just here still because I didn't die. Y'know so she didn't necessarily have a strong sense of y'know coping and surviving and er using strategies which helped her get through it. She was just there because she hadn't er hadn't passed away. Erm so erm I suppose the business of victims as survivors is a conflict, a controversy, which you might see in reading about this topic, and some people don't use the term victims for that reason. Um how do we find out how on earth, how much, how much this kind of activity goes on? Well of course it's very difficult. It's difficult for various reasons. First of all because we're dealing with a socially taboo thing. Second of all because we're dealing with a topic which people may not want to talk about, may not erm er want to answer questions on to a market researcher, for obvious reasons. Erm for another reasons, which we shall get on to a bit later, there may be a great deal of confusion, er memories may not be clear or well formed, um people, according to some theories and ideas, people may be under-reporting because um y'know it helps them maintain their eq equilibrium a bit better. It's helps them cope with the experience if they if they if they don't define it as abusive. So, for all these reasons, and more, which I'm sure you can think of, it's very difficult to define exactly how much it goes on and er and what exactly er the abuse involves. Nevertheless, as I've detailed on the handout, there are some pieces of survey evidence available as to what the extent of various practices are, apparently. Again, according to self reports from people who've actually been abused in this way. For example there was a survey by West which was published in eighty five. There was um a survey in San Francisco by Russell which was published in 1983. There was some stuff by Baker and Duncan in eighty five and in a book by Olive Stephenson called Child Sex Abuse. Um she looked for um she looked at er a survey of two thousand odd adults that had been conducted in this country. That survey was quite methodologically sound in that the sampling procedure was er designed so as to make it as representative as possible of the U K population. Um and erm well anyway the frequencies and er various kind of frequencies of various kinds of activity are mentioned on the handout so you can er you can see that for yourself. It's not much point me just sort of reciting the percentages. Um now, okay, so there are some problems in getting a handle on exactly how much of these kinds of activities go on and whom they affect. There are also some problems in understanding the effects on people. Now um I've stuck in some data from the West study about um what sorts of feelings people reported themselves as having. Pity amusement seventy one percent, anger sixty nine percent etcetera etcetera. Now um these percentages don't add up to a hundred. I mean individuals erm participating in this study could well indicate several responses. It's also the case that erm these, don't forget, are self-reports so what people were actually suffering um may be rather different possibly. It's also the case that, as I was saying earlier, people may be erm may be may be attributing. It's an ex exercise in their atr attribution y'know if you feel angry now and you attribute it to some abusive incident which you may remember from your childhood um that's er that's an accomplishment. It er it's difficult to tell y'know whether people are under attributing or over attributing. Now, some of the more radical theorists on child abuse would say that generally speaking people people under remember people under report people under attribute. That is, people tend to forget either in a motivated way, or accidentally, people will tend to minimise or trivialise the abuse to which they've been subject in some cases because maybe saying that you've been sexually abused as a child and that is why you're so screwed up at the moment um that's not necessarily a very self-benefiting thing to say. It's much easier to say something along the lines of, oh he was only a pathetic old flasher, or something like that. It kind of makes the problem more copable with apparently um. Ah equally um, just to go off at a tangent a bit, um there're a number of more radical theorists, in particular the um in the Bonnie Burstow book Radical Feminist Therapy, would say that um rather like with other forms of sexual crime, the people who've been victimised, people who've survived, are often inclined to say something along the lines of mm y'know did i did I bring it on myself kind of kind of feeling. That is um in Burstow's clinical practice she reckons that um sometimes people say something along the lines of well well um perhaps it was my fault, I was flirting with him, and things like that it and these are people who maybe have been about five or six when the abuse has happened and so y'know do five or six year olds flirt? I suspect not but erm y'know sometimes it is conceptualised, even by the people who've been victimised as a sort of two way process as as though they are partly responsible. Um, now may be, according to Burstow, this is a sort of self-serving thing as well because it's a way of saying, if you just say that that say your father sexually abused you for no good reason, that's a very frightening thing to say. It calls his integrity into question in a really big way, it also by implication calls into question the integrity of a lot of other men you might come across. So um it's much I suppose it makes the world a slightly safer place if you can say it was to do with something that you did because it brings the world slightly back under your control, maybe. It means that the world is a slightly is a slightly safer place because if you don't do this, if you don't flirt, then it won't happen. Well, that's not necessarily er an accurate way of understanding sex abuse but nevertheless it can it can perhaps help people restore their equilibrium a bit. So this business of of understanding how it happened from the, in inverted commas, victim's point of view um this business of understanding the subsequent effects, this business of understanding the extent, ah are all enormously problematic and um it's one of these things I wouldn't particularly like to have to design a survey of because it's absolutely fraught with difficulty but nevertheless some some attempts have been made um as I have indicated. Erm now erm as regards when it happens to people erm, again going back to this B B C Childwatch Survey um of girls sixty percent reported that the first incident happened when they were ten, forty percent of boys reported the first incident occurred when they were under ten so it seems, if you look at the sort of average, averages are quite deceptive in this area but nevertheless if you look at the average um it seems to happen slightly earlier for girls than for boys. Now erm I suppose also um it's worth bearing in mind that sex abuse can occur right across the right across the lifespan. Usually with people, when people get to about sixteen or eighteen, it's it's not called child sex abuse any more. It's called rape, it's called indecent assault, it's it's um er understood in the same way that sex crimes against adults are understood and erm if you look at um y'know kind of er very young kinds um according to some people called Daley and Wilson, I can't remember whether I've mentioned these on the handout but I've I've got some notes here. The first year of life is enormously dangerous in countries where the statistics are being collected. It seems that in the first year of life you're more likely than at any other time in your life to die at the hands of somebody else. Um, if you look at erm who's bringing people up, again according to Daley and Wilson, I think this is where the information originated, in Canada where they've looked at um looked at some statistics on this, if you're being brought up by step-parents you're seventy times more at risk than if you're being brought up by your as it were biological parents. So all those myths about the wicked step- father, the wicked step-mother and so forth seem almost to be true in this respect. So um again this is um looking at er y'know people when they're very young y'know sort of one year old, two years old or so. So it's looking at the very beginning bit of childhood. Now, what else have we got? Um I've got some stuff on the handout about some of the stuff that's been done about what's what happens and how long it goes on for. Now again this is one of the things we don't really know um very much about. Er I suppose as I've indicated, according to one study in 1978, twenty five percent of abuse ind involved one incident erm however some abuse was very much more long term, if you can imagine twenty five percent involved one incident but the average duration of abuse was three years. You're talking about some forms of abuse which went on for a very very long time indeed to pull the average up like that. So again it's very difficult to describe an average case er so y'know it's one of these things that er seems to vary enormously in different circumstances. Um interestingly enough, in the studies I'm mentioning here, erm it seems that um in many cases the abusers were quite effective in manipulating the situation so as to be able to get away with it, at least at the time. That is um I suppose um you could er successfully if you were an abuser successfully deceive children. Um one of the things that you sometimes find is that the abuse is characterised is something special, something secret, something that you shouldn't tell anybody else about because it's our secret and you know what happens to people who tell secrets? Yes, of course, um er their heads fall off or something like y'know in much the same way as chil people frighten children with with with bogies and with unlikely punishments in the same way as compliance is often enforced on children. One of the reasons I think why abuse is very easily erm got away with by people is that um they're able to bring into play a lot of these a lot of these discourses with which we talk to children to make them behave, to make them er compliant. It's also the case I suppose that erm from the point of view of a child, thinking back to my own childhood, a lot of contact with grown-ups was was enormously traumatic and yet was considered by the grown-ups to be entirely legitimate. Getting taken to the doctors and getting needles stuck in you erm things like um being fed cod liver oil, things like being hit for doing things which I thought were quite legitimate like pruning my mother's geraniums and stuff like that. Um y'know all these things were not very pleasant and yet you're used as a child, you're used as a child to have grown-ups um be able to inflict things on you. I'm glad I'm grown-up now actually because er y'know it's one of my great pleasures in life to wake up in the mornings and think great I'm grown-up, I don't have to go to school and er and I don't have to live with my parents and er things are much better now than they were say sort of y'know twenty years ago or so, er giving away my age there. Erm so erm maybe because of the continuity between some forms of abusive sexual practice and erm what we expect of kids, what we train kids to do anyway um it means that abuse is easier to get away with. Now, thinking about um the people who do the abusing for a minute. Um I know er at the in the clinic and all that kind of thing, I mean goes on about these people quite a bit. Um it's interesting that when you look at people who have abused children they often will say things not only about the willingness of their victims, in inverted commas, but also about the fact oh she never said no, erm as the title of this magazine article I've got here is. Um y'know er there are ways in which ch abusers will characterise their activity as sort of fundamentally loving and gentle. Um that is here's somebody who says I was always very gentle with Clare, just caressing and stroking. When I started to touch her in a sexual way I asked her if she liked it. She never said no. Physically I could tell she was experiencing pleasure. I did it because I loved her too much . So um sometimes the way in which abusers operate, they characterise as being somehow continuous with somehow s almost the same sort of things as as y'know kind of adult affection and love. Um sometimes they attribute pleasure to the people they're abusing. Sometimes they say, oh you can tell she's enjoying it. Um now of course when they're talking about things like physiological responses, when they're talking about things like having orgasms and the like, erm this is on the part of the victims, it's not too difficult to detach these physiological responses from pleasure. I mean they're just things that the human body does. It's sometimes the case when you look at adult survivors of child sex abuse that erm some of these physiological responses are detached from pleasure and experienced in a very ah traumatic and very de-humanising way so that y'know kind of having orgasms isn't pleasurable sometimes for people who've been abused as children. Erm it's also the case that, particularly when abuse is of this sort of y'know like I was just describing y'know stroking, caressing, all that kind of things um it a lot of erm in some cases very confused feelings on the part of the people who've been abused. It means that um particularly in therapy it can be very difficult later on because things that we would ordinarily consider to be supportive like being kind, like erm y'know kind of putting a comforting arm round somebody's shoulders, like erm y'know ways in which people express support and affection for each-other ah are very very difficult for the survivor to accept because they're sort of the part of the way in which she, and it usually is a she, has been abused in the past. So um it also means that a lot of activities which we would regard as pleasurable as adults y'know sort of intimacy, affection, sexuality. Erm again er can be understood by the sex abuse survivor as being unpleasant, disgusting, anger-provoking, fear-provoking and so forth. So um I suppose in that way some of these forms of abuse, particularly when they they use the they use the gestures, they use the language of affection um they're perhaps rather different from forms of abuse which are er er most obviously violent. Erm that is, it's usual to understand hurt and pain and such like things as being consequent upon violence. If somebody beats you up and you feel hurt and upset and it's enormously painful then you need to go to casualty afterwards erm that sort of fits the scripts y'know that's w that's that's understandable. If somebody keeps on going abo on about how much they love you, if somebody keeps on going on about they care for you and how much they'd like you to enjoy yourself and er all that kind of thing and you subsequently feel hurt, upset, abused and need to go to casualty, that's probably a lot more difficult to understand because it doesn't fit the script. Erm and that may be one of the way is which apparently affectionate abuse, if you can call it that, erm may be er in some ways more difficult to deal with than er than more frankly violent abuse. So er just because it looks like seduction doesn't mean it's not abuse, I suppose that's what I'm saying in the in the in a nutshell. Erm now erm a number of people erm, getting on t back on to the handout for a moment, er a number of people who've reported being b abused as children also report that they do try and tell people, either at the time or shortly afterwards, and this business of not being believed is quite a common report from survivors, not being believed at first. Um, it's one of these things that erm y'know for some reason er the person they tell is apt to minimise the problem, is apt to say that the accusations are malicious, is apt to say that you must have imagined it and so on and so forth. Erm sometimes erm it seems, at least according to the study, that um and possibly also the the Russell study, that often the abuse stops when something's done by the, in inverted commas, the victim. That is em if nothing happens, if the survivor, if the person being abused doesn't do anything, then the abuse carries on and the abuser y'know continues to regularly perform this these acts of abuse, whatever they might be, and erm stopping it is something that er usually involves the, in inverted commas, victim, taking control of the situ well no no well not exactly taking control but trying to do something about it er making more fuss about it to other people, moving out of the house, as sometimes happens when people are adolescents. Erm y'know those kinds of things er tend to be tend to be effective. Erm, usually um action is prompted by well it's prompted by various things. One is as people get older, like when they get up to about fourteen or fifteen, they start um feeling perhaps a bit more self-confident, a bit more able to do something about it. Also, by that time you're erm often well into adolescence so I suppose the as it were the dangers of pregnancy become much more much more to the fore. Um also by that time er perhaps with a bit more experience of the world you've got a bit more to compare it with and you've got a strong sense that this is unjust, unreasonable and that other people don't have to suffer from it. So erm in that sense ah perhaps it's a bit easier to to take some sort of action. Um now um getting on to the next bit of the handout erm I'll just do this next couple of paragraphs and then and then it'll be time for a break for ten minutes or so. What erm the trauma of of er child sex abuse is concep being conceptualised very differently, even within our own century. That is if you go back to the Kinsey sort of stuff about sexuality um you find that well I've I've stuck a quote from Kinsey et al there um that back in the 1950's there was er y'know with with ah academics like Kinsey attempting to study sexuality erm I suppose there was often er a. I'll tell you a quick story, a quick anecdote about Kinsey. Kinsey spent most of his early life studying the activities of the wasp. He wasn't really a student of human behaviour until er he was his career was well developed. Erm interestingly enough there's a report that Kinsey as a young man at college erm was approached by a friend who had this this terrible personal problem and er confessed to Kinsey that he kept feeling tempted to masturbate and he was very disturbed by this er so Kinsey and he prayed together that they would er together have the strength to give up masturbation. Erm twenty or thirty years later Kinsey was studying human sexuality and saying things like I've stuck on the handout so erm y'know in some ways perhaps Kinsey's attitude to these things er changed. But Kinsey's were I suppose is part of a general optimism about sexuality which was felt in academic circles through the 1950's and 1960's. Ah the sort of things, the sort of optimism that culminated in that y'know all those Alex Comfort books, Alex Comfort Industries plc, the Joy of Sex, More Joy of Sex, Yet More Joy of Sex y'know kind of er erm y'know kind of er erm y'know kind of so much joy of sex I'm thrilled to death y'know this kind of kind of er all these things, Joy of S Joy of Safer Sex as it is now, trying to leap on the bandwagon. Er er all this kind of thing. This sort of optimism about sexuality that seemed to have inside it this implicit model that sexuality was a good thing, that that by erm experiencing more sexuality, more sexual pleasure, we could all be happier, nicer people, that there wasn't anything inherently wrong with sex. That sex was inherently pleasurable and mutualistic and all that kind of stuff. So um this attitude on the part of Kinsey er sort of fits into that ideology quite well. It's interesting that sexuality has been problematised in the seventies and eighties and nineties most effectively by the scholarship emerging from the Women's Movement erm who've said that y'know perhaps things aren't quite as equitable as these people have supposed, er perhaps sexuality can be abusive, look at all these instances of rape, of child sex abuse etcetera, sexual harassment and all these kinds of things. Nevertheless this sort of y'know white middle class male strand of of scholarship on sex, y'know the Kinseys, the erm alright Masters and Johnson, it was Virginia Johnson that er, nevertheless they seem to be very well in that mould, the Alex Comforts and all that kind of stuff. Um all y'know sort of very optimistic. We can all enjoy it eventually if we try hard enough sort of thing. Erm but er I suppose more recently um this business of understanding sex in relation to power, in relation to the powers of the participants, has has has effectively er knocked Kinsey's notions off the agenda in the last sort of y'know fifteen years, ten years, five years, so that people are much more erm inclined to say well physical size, disparities, erm disparities in the credibility if you like of the of the perpetrator and survivor erm and all those kinds of things make er make a big difference so it's not it's not gonna be mutualistic. It may well be inherently traumatic. Erm now I've stuck some next things on the handout about erm some of the things I've already I've already mentioned about er abuse of children in history. Erm then we get down to coming into the twentieth century. Erm there's um ah the origins of the myth that you can catch V D off toilet seats I suppose you could call it. Um around the middle years of the twentieth century there was ah a good deal of well people were spotting signs which would nowadays be taken as evidence of child sex abuse but they were giving other explanations for them. That is um when sexually transmitted diseases turned up in children, well it must be towels, it must be toilets, it must be clothes, bed linen erm, this is where the infection's come from apparently. This was what was said by professionals. Um it's also the case that um particularly round about that time there was an an idea that children were not competent enough to know what had happened to them, not competent enough to know their own minds. Possibly if they did tell you something then it was likely to be made up because children didn't know it was wrong to lie. All those kind of things were were seemed to be ideas that were were floating around round about that time. These are catalogued in um well I've referenced it to Bartman 1990 but you'll see more about this erm in, let me see, there's Dennis Howitt's book concerning psychology which has a chapter about erm child sex abuse in it and there's also a book that the library's got called Child Abuse Errors by Dennis Howitt as well erm which has go deals with some of these these issues and arguments too. Um and erm that might be that's one of th some of the few things that the library's got but erm er anyway. That's erm moving along a little bit erm there's also this business of of what I suppose in other contexts has been called blaming the victim, this business of children somehow inviting the the, if they have actually been abused, it must be because they've invited it so erm that's erm. Now as it approaches the witching hour of um the witching hour of ten to ten I suggest we all go and run about a little bit for for ten minutes and I'll do something about some of the emotional effects and some of the therapies in the next hour for all those who're interested hello tape recorder, there'll be another hour in a minute. Oh hello Erm I haven't seen him yet this morning er so I'm not quite sure um he might be. Er ah I think he was intending to come in. I know he was off he was off sick on Tuesday er but it's I know he was hoping to come in today I know so it's worth a look Oh right erm yeah oh right so you're doing should there be more handouts ? Um er excuse me,are there any more handouts in the room ? I've got one You got one spare? Oh right yeah good Er I'm afraid not no I'm sorry D'you know if has? Er you might try he's often fairly B P S'ish yeah erm and em if you managed to find he's always got loads of bumf about jobs in psychology and stuff like that. Er he gets the the American Psychological Association Monitor as well which as got like jobs in the States too. Okay then Not that you well you may not be interested in that but y'know it's there's plenty of variety as it were yeah only have them from about last November Ah yeah so they're well out of date by then presumably. yeah yeah yeah just thought I'd ask . Okay yeah I'll try thank you, erm my name's Ah right yes so let me see, you were the one who said that you were getting to the S P S S stage or something were you ? Yeah yeah well I've done it and I just want to check with you that what we've done is right and then I can er yeah yeah and fine now I think somebody's coming to see me at eleven and then I'm teaching from twelve til two, somebody's coming to see me at two but a bit later on this afternoon or on Monday morning I can do er Monday morning probably Well come and find me Monday morning then Right what do I some time at about eleven o'clock Erm that's when it starts to get busy because there's like the there's like the eleven til three kind of kind of kind of busy time er I've got a lecture before that er mhm alright Can I come at three? Yeah because I'm doing second year abnormal from two til three so you might be able to catch me at three So if I come, I'll come at three Yeah yeah and sort of bring your bring your questionnaire bring my disk and bring your disk and we'll see what it looks like Okay right, okay, right Thanks very much Oh hello. Yes I saw your notes yesterday um now projects and stuff like that. I mean what what's happening? Mhm oh right. So let's see, you had a questionnaire last time last time yeah we spoke I mean how's that right okay em are you free a bit later on this afternoon, probably around about threeish possibly? No erm any any time any other time later on today? No? What about earlyish on Monday. I'm free earlyish on Monday. What about, is it a big hassle you getting in for nine? No No okay because it's as I was saying usually between sort of round about the middle of the day there's people knocking on the door all the time so if you can sort of get sort of earlier or later it's we're likely to have a y'know half an hour when I can show you to do S P S S on it. Right So if you bring a questionnaire and erm er we'll go through it and I'll show you sort of how to define the variable list and and y'know kind of how to enter the date and stuff, show you a give you a copy of the data file that I've got that actually works so if you just sort of follow the syntax it'll yeah so erm so that's okay. Now are you still still interested in humour and such like things? Yes right. Interestingly enough I've got a book er back in my office about things like T V comedy and situation comedy and stuff like that and also y'know kind of variety sort of comedy with sketches and s y'know Two Ronnies, Monty Pythons and stuff erm would that be of any use to you if you were to borrow it? Yeah? So erm have you any further thoughts yourself or y'know any further things you've done or mhm Mhm right erm so I mean what does it look like it's gonna be turning into? Is it gonna be turning into something that looks a bit like a survey do you think? Or is it gonna be turning into something that looks like analysis of oh right so it's like listen to yep fair enough listen to er a joke and er well I'll tell you what, can you speak up a bit so we can actually get the conversation on here because the I'm sure the British National Corpus would be interested. Erm er so erm yeah I mean that's that's er a fair way to proceed I think y'know if if you have video tapes or tape recordings of stuff Yeah so erm yeah so if you get that sort of thing and then you can in some way either get people to discuss or get them to fill in a questionnaire about it or something of the sort I mean that's er the format that y'know kind of er seems to work quite well for final year projects anyway er generally speaking with other stuff so er yeah that's that's do-able. Um so it's a matter of um do you know yet really what sort of material you'll be erm you'll be using er Well Yeah mhm yeah I mean you may want to select some stuff that's y'know that represents different kinds of things because as I remember our conversations earlier, you were interested in er y'know sort of ideological soundness, political correctness and y'know were some things funny but sort of off-colour for other reasons erm er I'm paraphrasing it badly but er y'know I think that th s so you might want to get some stuff that's sort of ideologically sound and humorous and er some stuff that's a bit off-colour and humorous and some stuff that's erm sort of I don't know some stuff that's main stream but has got a lot of y'know if you look at something like say The Two Ronnies or something, there's a lot of there's a lot of racism and sexism in there but it's because it's sort of main stream because it's family viewing and stuff like that people tend not to think of it as problematic. Erm y'know erm it's also erm perhaps interesting the way things have er have shifted you know in the last decade or so, like that thing that erm used to be on in the seventies, It Ain't Half Hot Mum, with um a number of people pretending to be Indians and and exhibiting all the stereotypes y'know it ain't half racist mum is probably more erm er in fact there was a book called It Ain't Half Racist Mum that er Leicester University library had er y'know going on about exactly that you know the sort of y'know racism of comedy. Erm and er so er y'know there's all sorts of well depends on what you can find and what you think's suitable. Um generally speaking you know if you you might want to use sort of fairly y'know sort of fairly brief extracts y'know sort of five or ten minutes or something like that maybe and get people to y'know respond to it and so on. Um and er so yeah if you sort of do something along those lines um so y'know sort of find some extracts and think of some questions I would've thought. Um and also it may be possible to y'know you may want to start out by showing people some stuff and trying to get them to talk about it so you you understand the sort of language concepts, repertoires, or whatever you want to call them, that people are actually using to try try and work out some more formal questions from that and move on to a questionnaire type thing y'know I mean that's a possibility. Or you may want to do discussions sessions and and er try and content analyse or discourse analyse the discussions. I mean that's a possibility. Erm it helps of course if you can find some some sort of linkage with some some y'know things that've been written about I don't know humour and something Oh was that George Payton and various other people? Yeah erm so er yeah right that's er because I mean what's nice to see in these things is if you're able to tell some sort of coherent little story from er y'know kind of these er people's ideas, themes, speculations, evidence from previous studies and all that kind of thing and this is this is the data that we've got that tells us something about those and says how misconceived they all are or how it may confirm them or whatever and then y'know a couple of bits sort of so it's like a nice narrative but sort of fairly y'know sort of continuous argument going through which is nice to see and so er yeah. So if you find some yeah find some yeah it's a matter of y'know getting some stuff erm getting some stuff together. Erm so er is there anything else we need to worry about at this stage do you think? Erm I can't really do very much until I've got Mhm yeah yeah but er well anyway if you get some stuff together and we'll see we'll see how it goes but er yeah so I think you'll probably find you'll have to work quite briskly erm yeah right well have you succeeded in getting other stuff out of the way? Oh good oh right so er so you can you can do project for a few weeks fairly solidly before the end of term course when deadlines start looming. Yeah great yeah so that's erm that's good right good okay yeah. Well, best of luck to you and er right I'll see you on Monday Right Right okay cheers oh hello child sex abuse you know where the children abuse other children Yeah well we're talking about sort of. Erm if it's um well generally speaking I think, thinking about what the sort of consensus would be among people who who study this sort of thing, they're usually looking for some sort of of discrepancy in ages or powers or something. Erm I mean kids can do, of a similar age, can do enormously abusive things to each-other in which case it's often thought of as things like bulling or erm or or something like that y'know I mean for example I know somebody who attende was educated at Rugby and you know he was he was buggered silly by the other boys who also wired him up to the mains and stuck billiard cues up his bum and all sort of things. Er so I suppose y'know in a sense that's true, there is the sort of sexual element to some of that bullying that goes on. Um I think um where I've seen things that er discussed under the heading of child sex abuse erm er it's often the case that um y'know maybe in some families you find the situation where there's a daughter who's being abused by the father and then when the brother gets old enough to take an interest in sexuality, he joins in as well sort of thing and it's er y'know it's like there's two blokes abusing the girl. Um so I mean that can sometimes occur. Er when there's already an abusive sort of dynamic going on erm y'know other people who are more similar in age can can can get can start participating in that. Um I'm not quite sure wheth whether you'd call it bullying, whether you'd call it child sex abuse, whether you'd whatever you call it I think depends on the ages of the participants and depends on on the perspective of the person who's describing it as well I suppose it depends on exactly what's occurring and Yeah mhm. Oh hello there . Oh right yeah. Erm, oh not too bad thanks. Now erm I've still got some stuff to do about child sex abuse for the next hour or so. Were you intending to? just called to say hello got the video Oh right yes. Erm ah some people were looking for you earlier. Did they come and see you? Yeah right yes yeah right yes good. Yes I'm I'm microphoned up. It's the British National Corpus, they're trying to record languages that is used in the U K Oh excellent excellent today sort of thing and erm er we're recording the lecture. Sorry, were you trying to say something? Oh you're after alright yeah That's an interesting sweatshirt there Yeah Mhm well I tell you what, do you want to record something?record some language in the tape recorder? This is five Anglo Saxon Bollocks Mhm dear There's a Scottish haggis faced bastard here It's still going, it's a very long tape in here language I remember you saying in the first year when you first came to Birmingham yeah yeah and I thought it was hysterical,it was the fact that you noticed when you first came here about if somebody liked you they always greeted you by swearing at you Oh right it's like oh alright I must I must have been I must have been on good form that day You you were and I thought I thought that's true that's true because I do that I don't remember that phone them up and they say, alright you fat old bastard how're you doing? Oh yes good yeah. I know I did a thing on the phone with somebody once where erm er let's see what it was, oh I was going round to his house to cut some ends of bricks of a wall with er with a big angle grinder and I phoned up and said, hello this Leicester Brick Decapitation Services, I gather you've got some bricks who's heads need cutting off, and it was the wrong person So er I said oh I do beg your pardon, is there? Er no, said this person after a distinct pause and erm er I said, I'm terribly sorry I've got the wrong number. That's interesting, there's a little there's a little thing in either end of this microphone er I wonder which erm perhaps it's supposed to be on the directional? It'd be interesting to play this back and see what er see what's listen all your ahs and your ums and your ers Oh yes well yes I mean it would be nice of we could sort of clean those out of the the soundtrack and all the stumbles over words an Erm yes it is yes it is because language language languages if you actually write down real language that people say it's gibberish. Erm yeah if you try and transcribe stuff, as I discovered doing my P HD you know, I didn't realise how much gibberish was talked and often things the meaning's clear in the conversation but if you listen to the words or l w read the words later y'know you haven't a clue what they're on about and yet you're fairly sure Er I don't think so. I think I'm doing it Oh right oh right about the way we treat children. I remember when I was a child that occasionally my parents would have visitors to the house, people that I'd never set yeah eyes on before and when it was time for me to go to bed I would be encouraged not made to kiss them to kiss them kiss these people goodnight Oh God I remember things like that. Oh no Well is that isn't that absolutely tragic Oh God I can st I can still remember Auntie Edie and her mouth full of rotten teeth, oh dear, whom I'd never met before it was a stranger and we were well it was somebody who was a stranger to me but allegedly she was related to the family or something Cos all adults are called auntie and uncle aren't they as well because yes it sort of familiarises them and makes them seem like they're relatives and stuff yeah I can remember being made to kiss these strangers, even when I was say about nine, eight or nine, I can remember feeling quite embarrassed about having to do it Yeah well I I remember it was more a it was more or less like a feeling of physical revulsion er I felt erm on occasions like that, partly because of the person but partly because it was a bit of an imposition on on my on my intimacy as it were y'know erm so er try to understand children. I can remember as a child being very nearly it's my body and nobody else should be touching it. Yeah yeah I didn't like it I mean er as you say Yeah and erm yeah I mean that's one of the things that tends to to happen to kids and it's almost like when you're a kid your body isn't your own That's right Erm and that's I suppose was the point I was trying to make earlier that al that's why abusers sometimes find it very easy because they're able to tap into a lot of the ways in which we treat children um y'know so er like if you ever work in a children's ward you can always tell the children that've been hospitalised for a great length of time cos you can do anything with them So they're like fairly totally passive So they're used to have thermometers stuck in them an and have the have the bed pan slipped underneath them yeah mhm and and presumably even if they're not floppy as a result of their illness they'll they'll sort of go floppy after er a period of institutionalisation yeah mhm yeah yeah mhm so er. Well that's interesting well I'll er d do you mind if I mention that when we start the lecture again because that's a good example erm yeah. Sorry were you about to say something? what about what about the parents who let it go on? Erm gonna talk a little bit about family dynamics and stuff like that in a in a short while, hopefully, if I get time erm so anyway I think it's almost enough people back in to er Do you have a handout for me please? Erm not any more I don't I've given them all away hello, are there any spare handouts in the room? Anywhere at the back or anything? Erm no, well have a look up at the back and see if you can see anything. Mhm yeah mhm yeah get ready Oh right erm yeah erm well I dunno I'm I'm almost tempted to want to start again now er so er mhm yeah mhm . oh good, hello people, mhm mhm It's a bunch of people, Universities, Publishers, erm some funding from Central Government, some from er research councils of various kinds are trying to make a sort of record of current usage of the English language and I think Longmans are intr interested in it for example f from the point of view of dictionaries and stuff like that. Erm I've got er ah just a minute oh it's got them on here. Look, British Library Chambers I beg your pardon. I beg your pardon I've actually committed myself to tape and made a big faux pas. It's Oxford University Press and Chambers. It's n er I can't see Longmans. Erm there's Lancaster University, there's Oxford University oh right Erm and Is it about is it about discourse then erm or Erm I language in general? I think, I'm not quite sure how they're gonna attempt to analyse it. Erm whether it's to do just with the words, like for dictionaries usage y'know or whether it's to do with erm how language is strung together, functional use of grammar or whether it's to do with units and repertoires and bigger units or whether it's to do even with ideologies or yeah Oh right Mhm so I mean well it it's gonna be an archive and maybe people can who want to to analyse everyday language can get tape recordings from it and er y'know perhaps it can be used in scholarship, perhaps it can be used in socio-linguistics or whatever. Em I dunno quite erm So it's not Not, well this one specifically this but er I mean there's tapes being taken all over the place. Erm and all manner of people have been invited to participate and Aston was and I think got this initially but he's passed it on to me er so er yeah anyway let's let's see if I can get the thing rolling again. Mhm yeah mhm Erm there was but, have a look on the top of that slide projector, I think there's some on there. Erm sorry I gave them all away I'm afraid mhm yeah so er I'm tempted to start rolling again in a moment so would you like to make an announcement yeah? Er hello everybody. Can I just make an announcement about the videos. Erm I've got this the er the erm Carl Rogers video which er is in principle an awful awful copy, you can't hear it, it's a terribly recording er but er you may w oh gosh I can speak into that, how exciting. Erm so so you er may want to stop at eleven o'clock, or ten to eleven or whatever and watch the video. I think what I'll do, you've got about forty minutes of it today, you'll get Carl Rogers working with a client called er and then we'll stop there and then next week you'll see the er the next behaviourist called er called erm Arnold Lazarus, okay, who you might wan he's got a book called Multi Modal Therapy which was a big hit about ten years ago and there's about five copies in the library. Who was I talking to about books? Yes, have a look at Arnold Lazarus and Multi Modal Therapy. Erm so what you get is you get Rogers this week working with client and then you get Arnold Lazarus the following week and then after that you then get er you then get then you then get the client saying what she thought of it all which is quite interesting as well, so erm what I'll do is I'll put it on to about when finished really Yeah okay well I'll I'll try and give you five minutes before eleven o'clock so er so you can nip over to the video room or wherever it's being played. Oh it's in here? Right okay yeah. And er, the other people, was it was it eleven o'clock on Monday people ? Eleven o'clock Monday is that right, yeah? So what I'll do is I'll have the video tape in er with on Monday. I won't be in on Monday so people will have to come in on Monday somebody will have to come in on Monday, go to the room specified which I haven't agreed yet and then put it on and then bring it back again to so people who can't make it today, that that's the alternative arrangement but I'll tell you more when I come back at eleven o'clock, okay? Right mhm and no problem. Okay right now erm let's continue with, I beg your pardon, let's continue with chi sorry are y oh never mind, okay right cheers right. Erm okay let's let's keep rolling along with erm with child abuse. Interestingly enough in the interval there's a couple of interesting observations been made by by various of you which I'd like to mention before we actually get back on to the handout as it were. Erm, first of all, what if the abuser and the abused are around about the same age? Would it still be considered child sex abuse? Well erm there's a lot of there's a lot of abuse that goes on between kids of similar ages, often in schools, and we call it things like bullying. Usually to be defined as child sex abuse I think w for most authors there'd need to be some kind of discrepancy in the ages in some way, that is y'know if somebody was about thirteen and the other person was about eighteen it might be ah starting to get er a big enough discrepancy to be outside the realm of of y'know kind of normal y'know sort of boyfriend and girlfriend to use those saccarinous terms erm relationships and maybe might be considered to be er to be something like child abuse. Erm maybe also erm if you look at things that happen, particularly in closed institutions in closed environments. Erm like erm for example I knew somebody who was educated at Rugby and during his time there he was abused enormously by the other kids. Erm he was buggered silly to put it er very crudely erm and not only that but they used to wire each-other up to the mains and and stick er snooker cues up each-other's backsides and a whole range of activities used to go on. Erm all the s all the all the rumours you hear about public schools seem to be true. Erm and this can leave people obviously with a number of traumas and a number of difficulties to deal with later on in life. Um so er but nevertheless those sort of things aren't often considered to be child sex abuse. Erm indeed there are many within in the education system, particularly older men seem to have this attitude in my experience, that y'know it's just it's just boys messing about and having a good time. Erm, I don't know. Erm y'know it's one of these things that er that's often been rather condoned,o particularly if you're looking at the education system. There, in this country, more so than any other country in Europe, there's a tradition of adults abusing children quite legitimately as well in the form of beating them and erm indeed headmasters of Eton back in the eighteenth and nineteenth century were often selected, not because of their scholarly ability, but because of their size and strength. Erm there's the legendary Doctor Keat of Eton who er was was erm legendary precisely because he beat the boys so often and so vigorously. Um if you go back to the eighteenth century, early nineteenth century, you find that um I think it was at er Winchester possibly, er some some of you may have heard of this in in History or something, er there was an uprising at Winchester school and the Army had to be called in to quell the rioting pupils because they were rebelling against the harsh conditions. Anyway erm so erm you sometimes also find with family situations, let's suppose in some situations you have some you have a daughter in the household who's being abused by say the father or step-father, maybe if there's a brother once he gets old enough to start becoming interested in sex, in some cases, although he's round about the same age as his sister, can be um as it were inducted into the into the cycle of abuse erm can actually start participating when the dynamic's already there. Erm another thing is, going back to the point about erm er when you're a child grown-ups often do rather unpleasant things to you and expect you to comply. Erm er just made an observation about er experience in hospital with children and apparently when kids have been in hospital for a length of time they don't object so much when you go along and stick a the Um often this is one of these things that's er a vicious circle I've mentioned briefly there is um er, let me see, it's , women who've been abused show more need for power than a comparable group of unabused women. Need for power is is one of things, it's rather like erm need for achievement or something like that. Erm I suppose the theory is that um somehow the experience of disempowerment, the experience of abuse, is is something er that prompts this greater need in later life. Er perhaps it er perhaps it also prompts a greater fear of not being in control, a greater fear of of er not being in in some way in command of the situation because then somebody might do something to you. Now erm how have we got er I've next thing on the handout is something I've stuck on about the way in which erm er well it's what I've just covered about the the way in which some sorts of therapies for people who've been abused as children tend to embody rather heterosexist assumptions which has been stated by Jenny Kissinger for example. Erm er also um I've stuck in a note about the difficulty in interpreting the consequences of abuse erm because of the way in which um you may find, as did, looking at people who've been abused as children er versus people who haven't. If you look at the way they report they remember what their family environment was like, what their home environment was like as as kids erm you find that they generally have much less positive recollections than people who weren't abused as children. So maybe it's difficult to separate out the consequences of abuse per se from the consequences of erm lousy emotional environment, from the consequences of neglect and deprivation, from the consequences of a whole range of non-sexual abuses which you may find in the kinds of environment where child sex abuse is more likely. Now I'm not saying in this that child sex abuse is specific to one particular class or group of people in society. It seems to cut across most social divisions. Erm y'know you can't say, oh it's more common in this particular group of people because they live in Manchester or something like that. Y'know it's it's one of these things that isn't confined to a particular region, isn't confined to a particular class or ethnic group or anything like that. Erm however, you do find some indications from some studies that people report rather more negative things about their er about their early home environment. Now, erm on the subject of of the family, it's worth mentioning another erm sort of debate that goes on within the subject of child sex abuse, the business of I suppose you might call it the business of responsibility. Now if you fi go back to sort of in the 1970's and the nineteen possibly into the 1980's erm there was er a certain amount of emphasis on disrupted family dynamics, there's something wrong with the families where this kind of thing occurs. There is something wrong with the relationships, there is as well as somebody doing the abuse, there are other people who are somehow complicit in the abuse because they're allowing it to go on, they must have known, surely they must have known, why didn't they do something? In the typical scenario erm you have the parents as villains of the peace, you have the children or the child as being abused, you have ah typically in the er as it were the stereotypical scenario, you have the father doing the abuse, you have a certain amount of responsibility pointed at the mother. Why didn't you do something about it? Why didn't you stop him? Why didn't you throw him out? Why didn't you report him? Etcetera etcetera. Now I suppose that kind of model of what goes on in families has been disrupted a bit in the last few years because increasingly people have drawn attention to the way in which um often the person doing the abuse is the most powerful person within that family situation. Erm often it's the father, often the abuse is going on in connection with a whole range of processes whereby that person dominates the climate in that household. Nobody in particular, and I s I use the word him, nobody particularly wants to question him, nobody particularly wants to get him in a bad mood. Erm often you find that that particular person is the one who's in whose name the mortgage is, or in whose name the bills are, the one who's bringing the wages home and that kind of thing and this erm power, this domination, has been suggested as one of the reasons why some people, some other members of the family, like like wives, like mothers, aren't always able effectively to do something about it. This sort of economic and social domination that goes on across the whole family. Um so um the business of family dynamics again is one of these contentious areas in er understanding child abuse. Erm there have been erm, I should have written it down actually because I've I've just gone a complete blank, there was that erm that famous case in the States ah and there were two people who'd erm I think the main impetus for the abuse of their child came from the came from the man came from the husband and there was a great deal of er debate as to why the woman hadn't successfully protected the child or successfully done something about it er and I've forgotten the names of the people and I've forgotten when it was. I should have written it down, sorry about that, that was a completely useless digression. Erm er anyway, never mind, um so um also erm particularly from a feminist perspective this idea of of so-called faulty family dynamics has been called into question by people like for example Hall and Lloyd who were saying that um, something along the lines of if you if you blame the family as a whole then this draws attention away from the fact that it's not the families who do the abusing, it's often, from their point of view, it was often the men that do. So erm y'know there's a sense in which some people feel rather suspicious of this sort o y'know the family dynamics type theories because it draws attention away from the responsibility of the people who actually do the abuse. Erm anyway right that's er a quick observation on the as it were the dynamics of of abuse. Now, remembering being abused as a child. Again this is another contentious area. Sometimes people have vivid and compelling memories of being abused. Sometimes people have um a whole variety of symptoms in later life and perhaps as a consequence of some sort of therapy, some sort of consciousness raising exercise, something like that erm they are not necessarily aware at the start that they've been abused but sometimes they feel y'know a very compelling sense of memories flooding back. Y'know that somehow um, perhaps rather like the psychoanalytic notion of repression, something like that, somehow um er they've been unable to remember for a number of years, possibly even decades, and er something triggers it. Erm I've mentioned a couple of things on the handout, one from this paper by Sigmund, another from I think this is in the British Journal of Psychiatry, I think they were writing. Um and erm y'know maybe there's particular events, sometimes it's therapy, sometimes it's something else um which prompts the memories of of being abused. Um now the process of remembering abuse again is another area of contemporary debate. Erm often accusing people of abusing you when you were a child is quite, in some ways, quite a risky thing to do because they, understandably perhaps, get rather huffy about it. Er they get rather sulky and offended to say the least, they get er, often they recruit academics and lawyers to say that the memories of abuse are fabricated, the memories of abuse they couldn't really have happened because the people concerned were out of the country at the time and were on holiday anyway and er didn't even meet the family until the kid was eleven years old after it was sup and so on and so forth. There's an in er a strong tendency to call the the testimony of people who've been abused into question in this way. Um in particular there's this constructive false memory syndrome that erm people are in some ways quite keen on. That is, according to false memory syndrome theorists, somehow the process of therapy, the process of disclosure, the process of interviewing people to find out the details of the abuse, somehow that constructs the abuse itself, somehow that's erm the thing that's that's causing the memories. Um somehow it's not really to do with whether they were abused or not as children, somehow it's the it's the therapist. Particularly if there's any suggestion that anything a bit like hypnosis has been used um this er business of of well it must be the therapist making them up or putting them up to it in some way becomes a particular argument that's raised quite often. Um so erm I did have some I did have some references on this which erm unfortunately I I put to one side and I've succeeded in losing so erm I didn't get the chance to put them on the handout but erm I'm just alerting you to that area of debate and that area of enquiry. Um interestingly enough, when you think about the way in which memory is conceptualised and understood in cognitive psychology, um memory increasingly these days seems to be being understood as a sort of active constructive process anyway. Um it's almost as if the debate about false memory syndrome is embedded in an older notion of memory, embedded in a notion of memory as if it were either literally true or literally false, embedded in a notion of memory which sees memories as things like larders or cupboards or filing cabinets and um y'know people pick the memories out and get them out and and display them to other people. Um, as we know from studies of re story telling, as we know from studies of memories for story structure and recall, memories for everyday events mm there's er a substantial way in which memories are scripted, which memories um seem to fit a schemer, which memories ah aren't stored as a literal description of something but they're something that we re-construct as we tell them. Er there's a sense also in which memories may not be an individual phenomenon but may be a collective phenomena and if you listen to families reminiscing about things or people who've know each-other for a long time reminiscing about things, different people supply different details, they contradict one-another, they erm fill things in, they say no it can't have been then because um because that was the Christmas when Uncle Sydney had his kidney stones and um y'know stuff like that. Um and then people say, oh yes I remember now and then they tell a slightly different story. Um so er y'know um in that context calling a particular set of memories false is is sort of rather misses the point um y'know in a sense all the memories we have are fabrications. Erm that um anyway er that's a slight aside so erm when you hear people going on about false memory syndrome it tends to pre-suppose that there are certain memories which are true by contrast um which isn't necessarily always going to be the case. Um anyway um so erm there are things, there are sometimes things that er that trigger memories. Um I've got an example from the Ronnie Burstow book er let's see. Erm oh I don't know. Here's here's an example of a bit of erm I think slightly cleaned up therapeutic conversation. Erm,client, I'm really scared, I don't have any control over the bulimia. You know I throw up food without even wanting to. Councillor, I know and it must be really upsetting. Let me ask you something, does this happen more often with any particular type of food? Client, it could happen with anything. Well actually it's more with things that're runny you know like drippy egg whites. Councillor, the texture bothers you. Client, it's so messy, disgusting really. Councillor, that's an interesting word that you've used there. You often describe things as disgusting and when you do your mouth wrinkles up like you really can't stand the taste. When you used that word in our session last week you were talking of the taste of semen. Client, yeah. Councillor, you're looking disgusted now, are you okay? Client, you know there's something I'd forgotten all about. When I first had oral sex I was like totally out and I started retching. There's something else too. The taste was familiar. I knew that taste from childhood . So maybe m y'know kind of the process of of of reconstructing memories, the process of remembering um is prompted by other things. It's prompted by therapy sessions, it's prompted by other kinds of tastes and feelings and ideas. Erm hello. Erm and erm it's something that we're not necessarily consciously aware of all the time but y'know kind of for some reason they're called back to mind. Now erm as it approaches the witching hour of twenty to eleven, I'll try and finish off erm reasonably briskly. Erm what I've mentioned then on the handout is some stuff about um er the business of traumagenic dynamics and the possibility that some of the consequences of child sex abuse cold be thought of as as er post-traumatic stress disorder. There's a somebody called Finklehall who's quite interested in understanding the the dynamics of abuse which I've quoted from here. Um now I think maybe um again there's this there's this notion of of people developing distorted beliefs, distorted perceptions and so forth. Um and I think there's some acknowledgement in these quotes I've got under end results, classifications and syndromes which um I suppose there's some acknowledgement that maybe these things were adaptive at the time but maybe once people are grown up they're not quite so adaptive. Erm that somehow coping strategies which people developed at the time are counter-productive when they when they're a bit older, so that's the general erm er kind of of impetus behind that. Um now er just to finish off um I've mentioned very briefly on the handout some different kinds of of er approaches to therapy um that people have used. Um just going through them, obviously there's some benefit in having a good therapeutic relationship. Erm sometimes er I haven't mentioned much about the gender of the therapist but sometimes it can help a great deal if the therapist's the same gender as the same person who's undergoing therapy and it also helps if it's er sometimes you can't very easily with some therapists, y'know it sometimes erm helps if it's somebody you can trust and confide in and stuff like that and obviously, having met various psychiatrists and clinical psychologists, er quite a number of them are not people I'd particularly like to talk about about being abused as a child. Erm I think one of the one of the exceptions is actually. I could I could really er enjoy being counselled or or having some sort of therapeutic relationship with him er strangely enough but er y'know. Erm but not everybody's quite so erm y'know not everybody gets on with everybody and um this kind of what you might call personal chemistry, to lapse for a moment into pharmacological determinism er maybe helps um maybe helps a bit. Erm there's also a feeling, this business of c almost like catharsis that re-telling re- telling the events, re-telling the experience ah is somehow is somehow curative, is somehow therapeutic. Ah this is a thing which um maybe is quite difficult to do, particularly as we have a culture of stiff upper lips and erm er a culture of of not making a fuss about things and a culture of particularly telling children not to make a fuss about things, a culture of trying to ensure that children can't legitimately make a fuss about things. Like when my mother was a kid in the 1930's they didn't used to use anaesthesia for taking out your first set of teeth if they were to take them out, up in the round Newcastle. They thought well kids just make a fuss anyway and they haven't got any proper routes so what're they making all that fuss about y'know, shut up, um and er that kind of things was going on. So er sometimes it's it's very erm difficult to re-live these particular experiences. Um going back to this business of people who've been abused at er as part of, well not exactly abused, people who've been severely bullied in in sc in the school system, erm particularly when you're talking about all boys schools, I mean this is one of the problems that they have to contend with. There are some sort of public schools survivors groups which have been set up recently and um it's interesting that this business of being strong and silent um is a kind of is a kind of nineteenth century hangover and I think it affects men and I think it affects women too to some extent. Erm, have I told you about Thomas Carlisle very much before? Thomas Carlisle was er one of the writers in the nineteenth century who was very keen on this business of being strong and silent and a productive worker and a and a competent breadwinner and he advocated this as the best way of being a man. Erm, of self-discipline, of self-control and all that kind of thing. Thomas Carlisle himself wasn't very much like that. He was he was a hypochondriac, he detailed his er what he ate and his bowel movements in almost obsessive detail. Um Thomas Carlisle um wen was very much impressed by the work of people like Wordsworth and Coleridge because they were just a bit before him and he actually went and met Coleridge. Thomas Carlisle as a young man was absolutely disgusted by Coleridge because Coleridge was all sort of fat and flabby and had ha frilly cravats and and was a was a was a dopehead and a heroin addict and er sat around all day in a darkened room and took drugs and drank and stuff like that, which um disillusioned Carlisle very much. What a terrible thing it is for our literary establishment to be peopled by degenerates like this, he felt. So erm nevertheless we have er the spirit of Thomas Carlisle walks abroad amongst us even now so er sometimes this business of going through traumatic experiences, particularly in front of another person, can be very very difficult for us to do. Yeah erm there's some um most of that stuff is fairly self-explanatory. Um maybe um maybe maybe maybe maybe ah as it's about ten to I shan't elaborate on many of those points too much. Erm now what I want to say at the very very end is a quick observation by Beatrix Campbell who wrote a book about the Cleveland er child sex abuse scandal which took place in the late 1980's. In Cleveland um there were a number of cases of child sex abused diagnosed, I think somewhere somewhere in the region of between one and two hundred altogether, by a controversial process called the anal dilation reflex. That is um if you erm if you make children er sort of lie down on their fronts with their bums in their air and you and bums in their air and you touch anuses apparently the anus dilates, or it can do, erm allegedly in children who've been sexually abused in that way, in children who've been who've been penetrated anally. Now this procedure was used to, in inverted commas, diagnose a number of children in the Cleveland area as having been sexually abused. Erm there was a big scandal about it and there was a report by um Butler Schloss which recommended, among other things, a whole range of safeguards and checks and balances of procedures so that this sort of, oh my God, this tragedy mustn't happen in future. So um that kind of thing b according to Campbell may be one of the reasons why the Cleveland scandal was so scandalous was because it intersected with a number of cultural fears we have about the relationship between sexuality and the anus for some reason. Um maybe it was particularly controversial because it seemed to be accusing er people, men in the family, particularly fathers, of having abused their children anally with all this sort of y'know homosexual connotations of that which activated the number of, as well as a number of fears about about child sex abuse and being a child abuser, it activated a number of rather more homophobic fears, both among the people so accused and in c our culture generally and er that perhaps explains why this er particular incident was so was so compelling and attracted so much com er publicity, according to Campbell anyway. So erm right now I think we might as well erm allow things to draw naturally to a close there so um let's see erm this gives you a few minutes to catch your breath in time for video, for those of you who're erm intending to watch it. Um so er well thanks very much for your attention Erm yeah certainly if you if you so desire Um yep yeah I don't think er I don't think I'll need it. I'll bung you on my list now have you had chance to look at the Erm yeah I've had a bit of a look at it but my eyes glazed over at about one thirty. Er are you intending to, do you want to come and see me now, or do you wanna watch video? Erm because you can come and see me and we'll we we can talk about it a bit because I actually have got some thoughts. Er Em I think I'll talk to you now Okay fine yeah I'll just pick up my papers. Hello Erm would I be able to come and see you to er any time this afternoon about my project? Yes please do erm questionnaire's entirely changed from the one I Ah right yeah I think it's more to the point cos what I was doing at Christmas wasn't really exploring the attitudes as I wanted to Yeah erm but it's very long and I don't know Mhm Er right okay well I'll tell you what, I think erm people are coming to see me until about two or three or so but erm if you come a bit after three you'll probably catch me on my own Okay Okay right cheers mhm Thank you Hello Hello there, oh not too bad y'know erm let's see, just done child sex abuse, or rather been talking about it an unpleasant subject Yeah Yeah right okay off we go. Okay see you soon oh sorry. I just wish they'd stagger lecture finishing times because the corridors just get so totally packed Yeah mhm. Yes it's great, I mean in the first year lecture on Tuesday erm in the break I gave them in the middle of it the the corridor was like thick with tobacco smoke y'know you could hardly got this really bad cough Oh is that that slightly slightly older woman who's sort of middle aged? out in the corridor having a smoke yeah stand it you know yeah well um I don't know, maybe she grew up when there were y'know smoking was surrounded by rather different attitudes. Like my father, when he was, when my mother first started going with him he used to smoke cigarettes quite hea heavily erm and er when he had a cold or something like that he'd say, oh I must have a fag it helps me bring the phlegm up so erm in some ways they're almost perceived as having a like a cur curative er Hello? oh right. Now then mhm erm sorry see see the difference of what? mhm right okay. So we're still erm we're still we're still live from the point of view of the British National Corpus I think. I dunno quite how erm er much er of other people's conversation it's picking up but it's probably picking me up er Can you record that all day? Well I don't know. I think there's some instructions somewhere. Erm it says something along the lines of um, it doesn't say on there. I think there's some in I think I saw some instructions that ideally they were looking for about something like about four hours of lectures and about four hours of y'know kind of more tutorial like interactions. So erm y'know kind of I'll just er come and see me now Well no I wasn't I wasn't thinking about that. I was just thinking about erm er y'know while it's while it's reasonably fresh in my mind. Um now one thing er I notice you're you've gone for quite heavily is using kind of declarative directional statements. That is, you know kind of where presumably the scale would be agree to disagree. Um and erm I was just wondering y'know kind of erm often when I write questionnaires I like to go for a sort of more kind of rather less declarative statements. Sort of, how do you feel about du du du du du du du y'know sort of yes definitely to no not all or y'know kind of doesn't bother me to very angry or something like that but given that you've done it this way, I think it works reasonably well. Now um Can you give me an example of of an alternative Erm er I don't know, I mean maybe it would be like it would be like you give a fairly sort of neutral statement and you have the adjectives at the end of the scale give indicate the responses like y'know something like how do you feel about homosexuality and you could have sort of y'know erm natural to unnatural or something like that erm Oh yeah yeah, as a possibility but given th give that you you've gone for it in this direction y'know kind of if you're happy I'm happy sort of thing. Um I was just thinking about y'know um yeah erm yeah it may be um given that you've er kind of er divided it up into into sections erm I think er maybe you could you could adopt a slightly different format for a different section or something like that so people y'know kind of get into section two and it's a wee bit different, it's a wee bit more er y'know y'know I think I think it is a good idea though to erm oh right er to y'know kind of break it up a bit er particularly if at an early stage you're intending to y'know kind of go through erm and get people to go through quite a lot of questions erm as a by way of er y'know kind of the first stages in in er developing this thing. Um I think that um y'know it's often quite intimidating to be confronted with y'know sort of say eighty odd questions, if you were to use that many, erm so if you if you kind of break it up a bit in some way and have different headed sections with slightly different format questions it might y'know kind of help people through it as it were. Do you think there's too many there? Erm I think um, given what you were saying yesterday, erm it's sometimes a good idea to start with quite a lot and then narrow it down a bit. Erm now I mean there's various things you can end up doing. One is erm like you were saying something like factor analysis, something like erm y'know kind of seeing how they cluster together. Erm on the basis of that you, and the other thing that er is probably worth thinking about is is looking at items which erm er sort of seem to distinguish strongly between people. If everybody fills a particular item in round about the middle or if everybody agrees with it or everybody disagrees with it, it's not telling you very much as it were, according to the usual of attitude scale construction anyway. I think sometimes they do tell you a lot but er y'know generally speaking they're like looking for items that strongly distinguish. The other thing is um, and you can spot this from correlation, matrixes and and factor analyses, erm if there's a lot of items that correlate quite highly together you can boot some of them out because they're not telling you anything that the other items don't already tell you sort of thing. So, you know, if you get one factor on which a lot of them load erm like the business about, you may find there're strong correlations between the attitudes to abnormality and, where's the one on mental illness and stuff like that? Erm so erm you may find that you can address that issue just as well with one erm and that's s well from what you were saying yesterday, that seems to be the y'know the kind of sort of approach to to design that you're taking. So maybe maybe keep it fairly big first of all and then then s on the basis of how people respond, narrow it down and maybe boot some out of that. Erm just thinking about If I do correlations I mean is that gonna be absolute massive job? Erm it's a pretty it's a pretty big S P S S job actually erm if you've got that many. Erm you may have to um, thinking about the capabilities of that computer there, you may have to um er split it up into er into say two sets of questions. Erm because I think you can you can do a correlation matrix with say if you specify like forty odd variables. Erm it sometimes gets a bit, runs out of memory, if if you put very many more than that in. But the one on the in the public access machines over th in the main building they'll be able to do more because it's a more powerful computer it's based in. So erm so give it a go anyway and see what happens erm and it's no great hardship to have to y'know kind of do it in two or more sets I wouldn't have thought y'know it'll it'll probably still work. Erm so erm yeah as regards the selection of er of items I I didn't feel um er well for example generally speaking er I don't have any y'know sort of see any big problems with the wordings. They seem mostly fairly fairly direct and to relate fairly closely to everyday language so er y'know it's not gonna mhm yeah yeah yeah yeah Erm I was just thinking erm er there's quite a few field here. Erm it may be erm er worth, in that, in that context, saying something about erm to get a contrast effect between y'know sort of how people would feel if they saw a man and a woman kissing in public and they may be perfectly alright about that but they may er feel particularly disgusted when it's sort of two men or two women. I think these'd probably be better if I did them on the one you suggested for yeah yeah maybe so yeah . Erm er what about the wor possibly a word like indifferent but it's not a very common word in the English language, possibly wouldn't be bothered or something like that. You can put a little phrase at the end of the scale or whatever scale you're intending to use Yeah. I think those'd probably be better with that kind of response rather than the previous one Fair enough yeah because it just struck me that there's a lot of er a lot of disgusteds all at once there. Now did I think er anything when I've read these. Erm enjoy attending or offending? Attending? Attending, oh right okay yeah. I could be offending I suppose. Erm yeah now these things these things could translate into sort of um comfortable uncomfortable Yeah, comfortable uncomfortable um happy unhappy y'know kind of er Erm with some of these it may even be possible to y'know there's a number of different adjectives that you could try with with some of these things like erm y'know how would you feel about knowing that you're attractive to your own sex? Y'know sort of comfortable uncomfortable y'know kind of erm I don't know pleased displeased, angry, what's the opposite of angry? Erm y'know I mean because people have a whole variety of reactions to to these things which you may want to investigate more specifically. Er and it's one of these things where thinking about y your average heterosexual bloke they may respond angrily but there's a suspicion that maybe it's because they're feeling rather threatened underneath sort of thing. Erm y'know that that sort of thing when they when they y'know when they might be, when they feel when they feel that some some other bloke's making an approach to them, when they feel that er y'know erm somebody finds them attractive, when they think that some other bloke has made a pass at them or something like that y'know they sort of react in a hostile way but y'know there's that suspicion that mm er y'know kind of er it's because they're insecure about their masculinity, it's because they feel threatened or something like that. So there's a number of different dimensions to to these things which you may want to attack. Erm erm so er yeah. Well I suppose you're erm er addressing some of those different aspects as it is but again y'know in a sense I'm happy if you're happy but I'm just thinking of different ways of doing it I mean that idea about comfortable uncomfortable Mhm yeah yeah so erm yeah there's a number of erm yeah. I wonder erm. One of the things that does strike me about er particularly heterosexual men and their attitudes to homosexual and y'know homo erotic activities, there's y'know a lot of different aspects where y'know I don't know rugby players all get in the shower together and smack each-other on the backside in the name of horse play and y'know it's not considered threatening or erm or outrageous and yet sometimes these are the very people who are the most homophobic. Erm there's a sense in which y'know kind of when I go to concerts erm there's y'know kind of there's loads of blokes who take their shirts off and er wrestle around together and build human pyramids and do all that kind of, lots of body contact, lots of grasping one-another and all that kind of thing and yet erm y'know presumably to them, on the assumption that they're heterosexual, as I assume probably they are, it's it's one of these things that erm y'know is kind of again maybe it even occurs at the same time as they're quite homophobic in some cases. Y'know that some kinds of activity are considered sort of acceptable and others aren't y'know. As soon as there's a a the merest hint of there's some sort of erotic intent then it's Mhm yeah and erm that kind of thing comes into it so that I was wondering if there's any way of er kind of y'know and what y'know where's that something about changing changing changing changing rooms somewhere? Here's one about the changing room Yeah mm yeah so erm I was wondering if there's any way of er incorporating that. I think er, having said that, I mean you've got quite a decent coverage of attitudes and situations in here already. I'm just y'know just thinking about some of the things that occur to me. Erm so er yeah erm again y'know I don't have any particular c quarrels with the wordings or the the content of the items. Ah I think it's just erm y'know kind of erm type them out neatly and give them a go really erm What kind of people d'you think I the first year psychology students they've been given some sexual orientation? Not yet not yet Not yet? Not yet, that comes a bit later in the term. I've got t I'm gonna do socialisation and er different approaches and use those then Yeah I mean if you get erm, I'll tell you what actually, because it's a two hour slot I can in one slot get them to y'know and th we're not in a great hurry cos there's usually a few spaces left over at the end of the term. Erm y'know even if it takes them quite a while to fill out y'know go through all eighty items y'know which could be erm y'know kind of, well depending how quickly they work y'know, sort of half an hour or something but if you if you get some er er a sort of type-written draft run off um I dunno, next Tuesday's quite a quite a short deadline but maybe the Tuesday after that er we can try them on the first years if you like? Yeah that'd be great Erm Now I've got er a little thing I wanted to ask as well about erm how people tend to label people as gay Yeah I mean I tried it out at work I show you the this is what they used at work. It's probably too vague Yeah in that um it was inspired by a comment that somebody made. They said about someone at work they said, he's we think he's gay Mhm mhm but the trouble is, he doesn't know it yet Oh right and when I gave them a questionnaire saying how would you label someone as gay they said, we never make those kind of assumptions. And I was thinking lying bastards mhm yeah so I'm thinking information out of somebody mhm yeah erm mhm yeah well I think I think it's one of these things like a lot of er mhm yeah yeah . Yeah erm yeah Yeah erm. I think there's all sorts of er there's all sorts of things that people do and they work at different levels. I mean it's almost like as as part of y'know kind of the general the general gossip of everyday life. Oh I think he's a bit camp isn't he? Y'know kind of kind of comments or playful thoughts you might pass about somebody but you you try not to do it seriously as it were, you try not to let it affect your behaviour towards them, you try to not be surprised if they disclose they're gay or heterosexual or whatever so er I suppose what I did there was put them on the spot so how could I word that so that it doesn't put people on the defensive so much? mhm yeah yeah yeah mhm I don't know. I think it's more erm if it's it's difficult to know exactly because people shift into different repertoires. The sort of stuff that you get in in y'know sort of everyday gossip between friends about y'know when people talk about each- other, oh I think he's a bit er I think he's a bit camp, or I think he probably is but erm yeah yeah all that kind of thing yeah erm is is like the the informal repertoire, the informal repertoire that you do between friends erm, between people to whom it sort of y'know it's not very important if you give them the wrong impression sort of thing. Erm whereas kind of in in a situation like this, people lapse into the formal repertoire. Let's not make assumptions, let's y'know it's up to them and y'know kind of er we shouldn't intrude into their private lives, that's their personal decision and er shouldn't make assumptions about other people's sexuality and all that kind of thing comes out. Erm so I think I think that's a very difficult thing to access. Erm, particularly erm if you if you if you're working with people who've got the as it were the politically correct repertoire er that that yeah alright mhm yeah mhm yeah yeah mhm yeah yeah mhm I know but mhm yeah yeah See some of them have them with that. I mean some people were quite willing to answer it and they were quite willing to say what stereotypes they usually employ and others j er just clam up and said, oh I never judge people, and I thought yeah liar doing all the time?biggest gossips in the office and she's never got a good word to say about anyone, she's always digging the dirt but when I presented her with it, I never try to judge people. I'm thinking I can't believe you're saying this but I wanted to photocopy it and show it everyone you see Mhm well perhaps she doesn't perceive what she does as as judging people y'know perhaps she just Fresh police appeal in murder hunt. We're investigating a cold-blooded execution. We badly need the help of the public. The man who took a one hundred and sixteen thousand pound gamble and lost. And are we lighting up too early? with the children I know this while in front it's too soon. A very good evening to you. An eleven year old boy has been held at gunpoint by armed raiders and forced to lead them to money and jewellery at his family home. The boy's mother, father and younger brother were bound and gagged during the raid. The attack has left the family terrified for their safety. was asleep in the early hours of the morning at his home in road Northampton. He was woken by a gun pointing to his head as he lay on the floor of his living room. Two robbers both with guns had got in through a kitchen window and were threatening to kill him. Then he said if you shout I kill you. Don't shout. Then I'm frightened. Say how many people live in this house? How many people live in this house?asleep why shut up. Three other members of the family were pulled from their beds. Mr wife and his four year old and eleven year old sons. Mr himself was in the living room because of a back injury. They were bound and gagged with masking tape. The robbers repeatedly demanded money and jewellery. Mr eleven year old son offered to help so one of the put a gun to him and forced him to lead them to him threatening him at the same time. He shout me Dad shut up gun . The phone was disconnected and the family's heads were put in pillowcases. Eventually they were able to raise other people in the house. Mr a forty four year old restaurant owner is still unable to sleep although his four year old son appears unaffected by what happened. The rest of the family is still terrified and don't want to be identified. The robbers described as Afro- Caribbean made off with an unspecified amount in cash and jewels. Police believe they didn't get anything near what they were expecting. It it may be because erm they believe he has access to money or money er I would say here and now that information is wrong but er there would appear to be no other motive for this attack. For the moment detectives are stumped for the reason for the attack. They say the takings from Mr restaurant business aren't taken to the house and they've no evidence of any important jewellery being kept there. As for the family they're still frightened and they're scared that it might happen again. Detectives hunting the killer of a businessman who was shot dead as he walked his dogs today carried out a reconstruction involving the car and a motorbike that they think may have been used in the murder. However they admit they are no nearer a motive for the cold-blooded killing of the forty year old property developer. Bouquets of flowers mark the spot where Mr Reynolds was shot dead exactly a week ago. Roses from his two children and his widow with moving tributes to the property developer police believe may have been the victim of a gangland style contract killing. Today timed to the minute a policeman wearing similar clothes posed as the motorcyclist detectives believe fired the five shots from close range in a remote country lane in Rushton in Northamptonshire. The white motorbike with black panniers was later found abandoned in road in the town. It was here on the morning of the murder that a red Audi car then sped off from the area. Detectives say the two vehicles had been seen in and around Rushton on a number of occasions. They're appealing for urgent help from the public. We're devoting hundreds of man hours at a cost of tens of thousands of pounds and of course neglecting other lines of enquiry. What we really really need the public to do is er get in touch with us and tell us of any associations between vehicles of those types. Through his business dealings the victim had been involved in a multimillion pound civil lawsuit. His home and car had been fire- bombed and Mr Reynolds had been attacked in the past. A police convoy used the streets around Rushton today in a bid to jog someone's memory to catch his killer. Two teenagers who were badly injured when a horse bolted are to begin a legal fight for compensation. But their solicitor says their chances are slim unless the law can be changed. The schoolboys were pushing two motorbikes along this pavement when the accident happened. Three horses were being led down the lane opposite when one bolted across the road. Thirteen year old Keith and fourteen year old Colin suffered severe injuries. Five weeks later Colin is still in intensive care. The boys were waiting to cross the road here and the horse came down this lane, galloped straight across the road in front of the traffic then onto the pavement, tried to jump over the boys and jumped onto the boys. And Colin finished up just down here on the pavement and Keith maybe a few yards further down er with very bad injuries. He's had to have his spleen out, his spleen has burst inside him. Erm that was a bad time er a critical time, they didn't know if he were gonna live or die then erm he's had a number of transfusions to keep him alive but er he's stable at the moment. In cases like this the solicitor says the law favours the horse owner rather than the victims. It does seem extraordinary and indeed we're hoping that we can change the law with this case. Because really in my view it should be that once something like this happened then it should be on the owners to prove they haven't been negligent. That there should be a presumption of negligence and for them to show that they've done nothing wrong. I don't want anybody to go through what we've been through. It's hell. I don't want erm I to wish this on my worst enemy. It's a nightmare. The families are now appealing for witnesses. Today the owners of the horse were unavailable for comment but their solicitor said that while they accepted the horse broke loose they do not accept liability and are disputing any claim the horse caused the boys' injuries. A teenager who thought that he'd won more than a hundred thousand pounds on a bet has today been told that he'll get just seven hundred and twenty eight pounds. After five months of arguments a special committee has ruled that the bet wasn't valid. Phil who's seventeen and works as a barman in Mansfield Woodhouse in Nottinghamshire thought he'd won one hundred and sixteen thousand pounds by correctly predicting the first three horses in the Derby. Ladbrokes accepted the bet without hesitation but claimed afterwards that their rules clearly state they can't take on such wagers. They agreed to pay him thirty three thousand pounds but he rejected the offer. Today the Tattersalls betting disputes committee met in London and ruled in Ladbrokes' favour. Now Phil will get just seven hundred and twenty eight pounds, the thirty three thousand pounds offer is no longer on the table. You're watching Central News here in the East Midlands, coming up next Police appeal for information after a horse is stabbed to death. Cash help for surgeons still waiting for keyhole training. And boring or brilliant, are the Christmas lights going up too early? An investigation has started into an attack on a pony which was left dead and mutilated in a field. The police say it was one of the worst attacks that they've seen on a horse. Police were called in after the fourteen month old grey colt was found dead on a farm on road in Lincoln. The attack happened on Saturday night or early Sunday morning. Police say a sharp instrument possibly a knife was used to mutilate the animal. They describe the attack on the pony as malicious and are appealing for information. Anybody who might have been er at the Tesco store on Saturday any time during the day who might have seen the pony or even people who walk their dogs because the field's used quite extensively for dog walkers. The police are appealing to horse and pony owners to be extra vigilant. Detectives investigating the murder of a woman at her home are following up new leads. They're appealing for help in tracing a red car. who was thirty was strangled at her house in the Peartree area of Derby. The car was parked near her her home on road last Tuesday. The body was discovered that night. Meanwhile two people who were held for questioning over the weekend have been released without charge. Figures just out show that coal imports have risen by five hundred percent over the past ten years. It comes just days after the announcement that even more East Midlands pits could be closed down. The figures released by the government show clearly the economic problems facing what's left of Britain's mining industry. In the ten years between nineteen eighty two and nineteen ninety two imports have risen from four million tons to twenty million tons. During the same period sales to the domestic market fell from one hundred and seven million tons to eighty million. And as a result the amount of coal produced by Britain's deep mines has fallen substantially. The government says these are the harsh economic realities faced by the industry. Mining unions who've been told even more pits may soon close say the government must do more to secure orders. Meanwhile residents have begun a campaign to stop a former pit being turned into a waste recycling plant. The scheme could provide more than a hundred jobs. The campaigners all live within sight of Silverhill Colliery which shut down a year ago. The U D M is planning to set up a giant recycling plant here to provide employment for an area badly hit by pit closures. Local people say they don't want it. Filth, dust, pollution, children getting run over on the roads, road traffic. I don't think any of the committee disagree with the fact that people want jobs. This is what we're not against that. Er but it's at what cost to the environment that these jobs are provided. Some of these residents have lived in this road particularly all their lives and they've suffered the traumas of living next to a pit and are absolutely horrified er at the prospects of what is basically going to be a scrap yard. A decision on whether the plant will be given the go-ahead will be taken early next year. Hospital authorities are worried because surgeons and nurses aren't getting enough training in a fast developing new form of surgery. So called keyhole surgery is being hailed as the way most operations will be carried out in the future but only a minority of surgeons can actually do it. Now thousands of pounds is being spent to make sure that they know all about it. For this patient at Leicester General Hospital the T V screens are what make the operating theatre different. Shortly the screens will give the surgeon their only view of the patient's abdomen. The operation is one of hundreds that have been carried out in the last few years by keyhole surgery. The area of surgery has expanded at an incredible speed from virtually from nothing three years ago to taking over as much as fifty percent or even seventy five percent of general surgery. But the training of surgeons and operating teams for keyhole surgery isn't keeping up with demand so Trent Health Authority is spending a hundred and fifty thousand pounds on a training centre at Leicester General. Around the country there have been isolated examples of operations going wrong perhaps because surgeons have not had good enough training. For the patients keyhole surgery means no big scar. It's done through holes a centimetre across. There's less pain and a quicker recovery. For the surgeon suddenly everything's in closeup. A lot of the operations now I do I think I can do better that I'm now seeing detail that I never saw before with the naked eye. At the moment it's mainly gall bladder and gynaecology patients who benefit but the skills the Leicester General will be passing on should mean more toddlers will be having operations through the keyhole too. Apologies if you're eating your tea. A city council has come under fire for putting up its Christmas lights too early. Some businessmen say they're losing trade as a result because people are getting bored with Christmas weeks before it arrives. Oyez, oyez, oyez. Here in the town hall square in Leicester the city engineers are starting the erection of the Christmas lights. Already there are lights everywhere in Leicester but no sign of Christmas. Many businessmen say the big switch on is proving a big switch off for shoppers. Lights and everything like that is is is lovely to see but you see they've got lights here in Leicester which other cities and places haven't got. We've so we've got an extended night lighting er er display going on for er two months or more. Other retailers don't agree and say the lights are essential to creating a happy and relaxed mood in the run up to Christmas. But many shoppers aren't so convinced. Christmas doesn't start until the end of December really or twenty fifth of December and you've got Guy Fawkes to come yet and Halloween and all that. I think it spoils it for children it makes them it seems too long for them they're looking forward to Christmas. I always feel it takes some of the magic away if you put things up too early. Leicester City Council says that with forty thousand light bulbs to install it doesn't really have any alternative to starting so early. We to put the decorations up in th in a s in a short time limit, the decorations take quite a long time to put up and as you know the decorations are erm are very famous er they're nationally recognized. With signs the recession is ending the next two months will show whether the Leicester lights help or hinder shopkeepers. Now though it's time for the break and coming up after that crossing the channel with those magnificent men in their microlight. In sport reds blushes speedy chops forest down And preparing to take America by storm. Two businessmen have just completed an epic journey which has taken them across the English Channel in a microlight aircraft. They took up flying for a hobby and say all you need is courage and a taste for adventure. A little shaky a little bumpy the start of a thousand mile journey that would test endurance to the limit. Pilots Philip and Ian began their challenge in southwestern France. The aim to compete against the elements and fly the craft safety home to Nottinghamshire. The flight was a tribute to a fellow enthusiast who died earlier this year from cancer. Ten thousand feet up there's just you and the clouds. With no telling when a sudden bout of turbulence can mean a sudden landing. Not far from the Channel the two surprised a French farmer and his family when forced to land unexpectedly. We put down er obviously a local gendarmerie came along to see what was actually happening and actually bent over backwards to help us. It was absolutely terrific. Er they actually took us to the petrol station to get more fuel and after a er five course lunch with the local farmer and his family er which was all very nice and er not too much wine of course as you can well appreciate erm we telephoned the gendarmerie and they came along and er closed the main road for er approximately twenty minutes and we took off on a road. The next stage of the journey was the most perilous, the crossing of the English channel. The last time a group of pilots attempted the trip an engine failed a pilot crashed and drowned. But this time success. Back on the ground in Nottinghamshire Philip has nothing but praise for his flying machine. Tell us about the propeller, it's behind you on a machine like this? Yes it's er actually pushing you along rather than the sort of conventional aeroplane light aircraft er which normally er pull you along. Erm as you can see it's er had quite a lot of damage on it since we actually came back but er it's been a very very trustworthy er propeller and engine. It's er the actual engine is er a Rotax five eight two and er it never let us down once. Er we're really we're really pleased with it. And the next journey an even greater challenge. A microlight flight across China. Wow and from those dizzy heights to the new depths that Forest has sunk to here's Keith with all today's sport. Mm and in our magnificent Monday montage we pay our regular visit to Goal City. Just the one at Leicester but strike makes the foxes that top dogs. And Derby are on the scent of promotion too after shattering Crystal Palace at the B B G. Walker wings in as the magpies pinch a point against Portsmouth. There's no hanging about here tonight it's straight into the action from all the weekend and we start with the big match at Filbert Street, Leicester City against Nottingham Forest. Leicester's new stand will be ready by Christmas. Some of the Filbert Street faithful reckon they'll have clinched promotion by then too. was about to introduce a note of caution. Leicester are on a high though this season while Forest are very hit and miss. David certainly more hit than miss, goal number eight of the season coming from this corner. You just can't keep a good man down even if he is only five foot seven. Ironically Leicester are heading for the top using Brian Clough's style of passing football and it's Forest who are reverting to more of the long ball game. Leicester particularly dangerous from set pieces too. A speedy show. It's all going wrong for Forest just when Frank Clark thought his problems were coming to an end. Even Stan could only find one opening do you find the, I mean do you find the management alright, do you get on okay with them and everything? Mm, aye. Nobody really crabby? No, there isn't really. Cos in my office there's quite a lot of bosses in my office, Mhm. cos it's the production control so Mhm. just talk to them like anybody else does . What do, what do you actually do in your office, is it like telephone duties or typing or what? A bit of everything. Just do everything really. Mhm. Do you get to know all the different people that ph ring up, all the different clients and that? Well we don't speak to clients, it's just salesmen and Aha. people I speak to. Mhm. Talking to quite a lot of different people. Mhm do you get to know basically everything work. So how did you get erm the job in the office? Was it just a, within the factory,out about it? No it was been here for six weeks and I was just expecting to leave Mhm. and I was gonna go and apply for but then Neil he sent for me and just asked me, just told me there was a job come up in the office and if I wanted it Mhm. I was to go. So it was just luck really? Were you relieved? I don't know, I didn't really want to work in an office. No. I'd prefer to work in a factory. Mhm. That's right, if I didn't work in the office I didn't work in the factory. Oh I see, aha. So you didn't have a great deal of choice? Oh well Anything else? I don't think most of these questions apply to you actually because they're mostly like for the kind of older women, I was gonna ask them about how they er coped with the, you know, running a house and I'm not gonna insult you by asking are you really that old. You're not planning to get married in the future then? Yes Would you recommend this job to er other folk your age or I didn't have very good qualifications Aha. here, good qualifications Excuse me. Aha. Have you ever thought about like maybe going to college or ? No. No? I'm just not, I'm not interested in it, no. You're not academic, you don't like it? No. So what kind of hobbies have you got? Do you do anything like, do you have any friends from work that you see outside of work? 's boyfriend, he works here. Oh well, you met him, did you meet him here, aha? Well it hasn't been a complete loss. Well I don't know. Do you do anything, I mean do they do, do any trips, like to the lights of Blackpool or anything now? Well occasionally somebody runs something but not very often. Aha. Do they have a football team now? They used to, but don't think, they haven't got one now. No, cos They've just got a snooker team and a golf club and Aha. things like that. Aye, and are a lot of people involved in that that work in the factory? Just the men. Mhm, the women don't have any clubs then? Och no, we can't have that, you'll have to start some. No just the men. Just the men, what's the kind of proportion of women to men in the factory? I'd say it was about half and half in the factory but higher up it's all men. All men aha. Does that bug you? Not really, it doesn't annoy me but I know there are some like women older than me in in my office that know they're not gonna get anywhere because it's all men. Mhm. Mhm. a wee bit of resentment? Aye, cos about six month ago there was a job come up in our office for like a trainee assistant manager type, well an assistant to an assistant manager kind of thing so I applied for it and another woman in the office applied for it cos she's been here for like sixteen years or whatever. Mhm. So, and she knew about the office, and I knew about the office and knew everything they were wanting me to know but a man got it from outside so Oh right. It was a bit Aha. Do you ever feel like changing at all? No, not really, No it's all men. Do they ever send you on training courses or anything like that? No. Do you feel your job's secure? As long as the factory's here I'll be here I would . Mhm. It's a job that they need somebody to do, they couldn't just Mhm. pay you off and things Aha. would just pile up and , you'd always need somebody. Aha, so somebody. Okay? Mhm. Smashing. Do you wanna dance all through the night? La de day de day de tonight oh baby do you wanna dance? Yeah he from the committee. You wanna watch out or he'll be having you down at the . Stuart'll be having you as his star turn. Where's your dad gone? Mm? Where's your dad gone? Eh? Oh . She's acting stupid you know. Are we gonna have a listen to Coronation Street? Oh are you trying to shove me mother out again Herbert? Every time you walk in she Well walks out. well we can all go and listen to Coronation Street. Alright! Well you, cos you haven't seen it have you Alison? You didn't er that did you? Yeah but I'm saying they're not paying they haven't gotta pay for that machine. Who hasn't gotta pay for the machine? Well if they're doing, somebody by hand's doing it, they haven't got that of paying for that machine. Yeah but the machine could do what a hundred people could do in a day, can't it? The machine doesn't get tired like people do. Yeah but I mean The peo the machine only goes off bad if somebody hasn't been maintaining it. And all you've gotta do is, with machine is put petrol or diesel or whatever it is to make and check all the oil And I know but that offsets the labour is the, labour is the thing that costs a fortune. Yeah. Well why don't you do it all before and Well they do. and they've got it in but it wants it at different times doesn't it? So you can't give it fertiliser. Well I still think that well say you have a big massive thing and, and say it'd take a hundred people mm er I suppose the bigger it is the more economical it is. But if you only had a small place it'd be more economical to have labour than it would to buy paying out thousands of pounds for machines and No you don't buy the, they come round and do it for you don't they? Well alright then You hire it for a day or whatever it is. It costs just say for instance two hundred pounds for the tractor and, and his sprayer and er the chemicals on top. That's done your whole field big field. Now that two hundred pound will only pay one man for a for a week to do the same thing. And he's gotta do it a few times, so then the cost becomes and, and you like let's be fair, we've had summers where it's the weeds er the weeds haven't grown, but you get a wet summer and the weather warms and the wet and the weeds go peooow up like that. So that's, and then it doesn't stops Well alright then, why can't he put bark on it ? Well that, it costs. from everywhere. Do it that way. But it's still costs isn't it? Well then if you put a lot of bark on it and with vegetables, so they want fertilizer Well You don't know what I am. I do I couldn't care less what you are Iris Did you know seven days? In where? In . Oh aye, yeah. Yeah. And do you know what, if th if they don't vote, if you don't vote what you always have done . I know. That's why . Yeah but if you have a secret vote how do they know what you voted for? They don't know. I know you have. If you come round and Well that's generations isn't it? But how many youngsters take take any notice of what their mam and dad says? Yeah but who, what ? He's had,offer offered to stand down if he can get a younger person that will run it. Put Sammy in. But that, I mean he's offered to stand down. It's getting a bit of a nuisance to him stuck there for twenty seven years. Well he lives the life of luxury. It's not a nuisance going off for his weekend break in the . No I mean weekend out there. Oh me mam's back again now. I'll get you sorted out mum. Between ? Yeah by the airport, yeah. And he has them cows and all that there, them that was Well I'll get you through with it then I can sort the tea out. Do you want now? Yeah and then Herbert and Alison won't be long. Where did we go on a Sunday and we passed there? And we, all them motorbikes was on er the edge. Yeah. That's where it is, aye. Yeah, well we the fish and everything's on. Yes but I thought his was the what's name there. It's the church there, there's some special church on his ground. Cos they was waiting to take it back weren't they? Yeah well he, he said that he goes there he can grow his vegetables then. Well he's Is your arm getting better now? You what love? Getting better now? Aye getting better now. Chris'll be off on Wednesday. I can move me arm about and do me exercises and couple of weeks I'll be getting fighting fit. now, well you know where we're up to. You know what's Well I . Oh alright then, so if John Major gets elected then I'll still Yeah. No because you're paying extra thirty five pence for Alright then, so I'm gonna have one pound sixty five a week? Yeah. Providing you don't put any petrol in your vehicle. And you don't do any drinking. Fine, so you've got that. That, that'll suit me. I, I won't put no petrol in the vehicle then and I won't do no drinking. Okay? Course Stuart's going to be one thirty five down. And even more when he gets his car back on the road, so He's not putting his car back on the road. I don't know why he isn't. put his car back on the road. . But I think once they've gone off the road now it's gonna be gonna be worse when the, when the engine stops ? When you take anything off the road left it a couple of days without running it, even on a Sunday, it'd be a harder to get it back going again on Monday. Well the thing is if he can get four hundred quid why doesn't he get one of them new bikes that Sinclair's brought out? Well, they run for an hour on a battery without pedalling, three hours if you pedal. It's a bike it's electric. It's a battery. It's a bike and you go like that to get it going and then you, it rides along. Isn't it? I've no idea. I've not even four hundred and odd pounds. Oh that's not bad is it? Cos you can pay that for a blooming mountain bike. Yeah. And it'll run for an hour without pedalling. If you pedal you can get as much as three hours. A penny it costs a penny to recharge it, it recharges in an hour. So if you go No but if you go from here to work isn't it? Plug it in in the what's name, pull lead off it and plug it in and then it'll a penny, say here's a penny. And then he's ready to come back home again isn't he? Plug it in here give your mam a penny. Er give him a penny That's what it is. Rechargeable battery. Well say I moved and lived in Gambia. I'd be able vote there would I? No. You've gotta be a resident of there. If I lived there I mean and bought a house. Well no, not necessary. You're classed as a foreigner. As an Englishman. So all these Pakistanis and they can't vote? They're re once no. If they but they come to live here don't they? Well that's what I mean, if I went to live in Gambia. And I bought a house Ah but you've got a British passport. You're not a resident of Gambia. You're a British they don't know. And you can vote loads of times there. You're not on a register. They put a stamp on you. Stamp on where? On your hand. Well it must be able to wash off. Well aye And you don't have to be twenty one either. You don't have to here, it's only eighteen here. No but twenty one aren't you? You've got to be twenty one to vote there but if you're, you're eighteen and you go in and somebody else says you're twenty one you can vote. The why the Pakistanis can vote in this country they've got a British passport. No but I mean there are people that come in here and just living here. Yeah the Pakistanis! They've got British passports! This is what all the trouble's about, they've all got British passports. Well why are they allowed to have a British passport? the empire we allowed them to have British passports didn't we? They can get them because they are British. Pakistan's British? Well it was, it was in the empire. It's in the commonwealth isn't it? And Indians and all this. And this is why we're trying to stop them coming in. There's ten thousand a week coming in. Every week? They're coming in from everywhere. And this is what the, the what's name now that when it's opened in nineteen ninety two the communist block will be able to come through Germany this way in. Straight into this country. And be doing all our they will be gonna come and do all the jobs that we don't want like in, in catering and, and things like that. All the rough jobs. They get in here then they bring their families and then they're gonna fill the country up aren't they? It's only a little tiny country. The Conservatives are trying to stop it. Th they're trying to get it through, the bill through. And Labour won't stop them? No, Labour will allow them in. Course, what you've got to think of, Conservatives are the one that started it in the first place. So they've gotta try and kill it off now. But the Labour won't. But they didn't start it. Some things are very complicated Alison. You've got to thingybob all through everything. Anything else you wanna know? I think what I'll do is erm when totally confused about what they're gonna do and who's gonna be what and Well you've got to weigh up that and you've got to read the manifesto when it comes out. What they're going to do for you. Yes but they don't put it in words like you put, they put it in blooming complicated language, but tell lies. Don't, read between the lines. See me and your mum'll know that. We'll read between the lines. Me and your mother not your mother and I. It's me and your mother. Well that was,the other day?told him about that. What? You put Alison, Stuart and me Stuart, Alison and I. He went oh is it? Well what did he give it you to read for? He was writing it, he was just sitting there. Oh aye. I wasn't gonna get one was I, no? Yeah. Well he suggested it. He was sitting and he said oh I'll write Iris a few lines. But he said ? Yeah he said, but the girl that was with him said that you were very highly honoured to have a letter that length cos usually she gets dear oh I her name's what her but dear whoever, got loads to tell you, love Mario. That's all she gets every time she gets a letter . So she said you're highly honoured to have a letter that long. She's never seen one that long . O over this election, what you've gotta do is every night, is if you're interested is watch it for the first quarter of an hour of the news every night. And you will pick up so much then to what's going on. Yeah but they tell lies! I know but They're not gonna tell me if you vote, if you if you vote for me I'm gonna cut your wages and he, he's not gonna tell me No. vote for me, I'm gonna cut your wages. Neil Kinnock will tell you what the Conservatives aren't gonna do. Yeah. So John Major will tell you Will tell me what they're gonna do. And, and and Paddy Ashdown'll tell you what the other two aren't gonna do. They don't tell you what they're gonna do, they just tell you what the other ones aren't gonna do . Yeah. Which doesn't mean that they're gonna do it does it? Well no It just means that they're not gonna do it . Yeah. And they're all gonna tell lies and it's gonna be the dirtiest election that there's ever been, this. There can't be a dirtier one than this because they've started already. Do they're all gonna tell lies. And they're gonna tell lies and it's gonna be a dirty lies. So it's not . So you're not gonna pick up anything . It's going to be the dirtiest election. They're going to mu throw mud at everybody. Everybody's going to be what's named and this that and the other. Glenys will be what's named running up and down the wall. They're going to,th they have a go at her don't they, Glenys? And Neil, let's be fair I mean they have a go at all of them. it's not gonna be right for somebody isn't it? I think if god come back down and to be prime minister he's not gonna be right for everybody is he? Oh . They was on about this and er they was on about that. That was a thing that come on and they said now when if when god was here and he did a miracle of the loaves and the fishes somebody would turn round and say there was no salt and vinegar. and then and then he said when he turned the wine, they would say well we wanted white wine not red wine. Well it is true though isn't it? Whoever it, whoever it is it's not gonna be right for everybody. Oh god! But it, that was on here. Because he was doing complaining and all that then this, this one er Roger said that. wouldn't be any salt and vinegar. Or somebody would have said well we wanted brown bread, not white bread . Well Alison let's go and get What we did was he draws them out every morning cos I collared him stuck the towels over his shoulders and said just put us them over there. Didn't I? Yeah but was he bringing them out for other people as well? Yeah. He wouldn't let them have them out when we were there. You couldn't fetch them from the pool. We wasn't carrying No these weren't the pool ones were they? No. They were somewhere else. On the right hand side, you come out and on to the patio, you could get them from down the garden there. You know where we was before? The other time we went. By the pelican. From down there. Did, No. yeah. And carrying them all the way to the Yeah. To the beach. Did you give him anything? No. . Oh we give him a fiver. No we didn't. We did. I thought he was . That was another thing. You said about buying Jimmy a drink. What time was it you were buying Jimmy drinks? All day. Well he shouldn't have been having drinks. Well perhaps that's why the other bloke got so funny with him. Just check he's got enough fags up there will you? Your mum wants to know if you've got your vest on. Yeah. And your liberty bodice. She's got her dad's, dad's vest on and dad's longjohns. And longjohns. Yeah. Oh hundred and twenty. Oh god! Two hundred What's two hundred ? hundred and twenty. What? What? No but he said two hundred and twenty minimum wage. lot of people Yeah. Who's switched this front light off? You have I haven't been in here. Have you done it? Yeah. Oh. Well what you shouting about then? Oh I didn't te forgot to tell you about the taxi guy who came. with er . Stops the car gets out open the door . . And then he stopped again do his pools. Do you want me to make him his tea? Yeah you can do. Cos you can but nobody's gonna make them are they? er I don't know which one to order with them. I can't get hold of her now. We've gotta order the stuff before we can do it. And she didn't say which? No she just said carry on. Oh. Couldn't you get hold of her yesterday? No. Is this right? Have a look at this. What's that? One's with and one's with new stuff. I think she wants the new stuff. But Are you gonna get them ? You want the key to the car don't you? Pardon? If you want, if you're going in the car the keys inside. It's just one I'm taking out and lying on the floor. What? I'll just tea up there cos she has a tablet doesn't she? Yeah. Can she have one after? No, I'll give it to her. Er or shall I leave her a piece up there and give her her tea cos she knows it's ready? Yeah. Okay. You can get days where you feel more tired than others don't you? But you had a late night last night. Yeah. Come on little 'un. Pardon? What do you mean he looks better as a woman? He's a handsome lad. But you never know do you? What do you mean? Geroff Alison. What? Come here because they'll be here shortly. . Come on in. In here. Come! What have you done with ? They're all . Look at little snuggles. We're only trying it out. What's happened? Double exposure. Two people? What, look at little snuggles. Aah . Jason, his name was. No it wasn't. I look like a witch there. Bit like me mother. No but you didn't have a tan though did you? That was the first morning that was. Look at that one. Oh my god! You look like you've got all over . This, this was supposed to be a a sexy That was a adoring look. Yeah, must agree I'm not very good at adoring looks. Oh I look like a model there. This was that first morning wasn't it? That'll be Thursday morning this. Where you look like . There, look at that face and the fag in me hand. That's . That's me mother. There's one of you sneezing in there. And there's Barry oh don't take pictures. Oh don't. Look, Well he never got embarrassed. Why didn't you have your photo took like that with them? I had to stand up and bloody do that Suzie's how does it go? How does it go, that? That One One smart fellow one smart fellow he felt smart. One smart fellow he felt smart. One smart fellow he smell fa Well he kept looking at me didn't he? Good that, isn't it? No, I've gotta show you this one this way. They're not bad at all. Here you are, look. when I took it . Didn't go where? To this compound you didn't see before. Well if you get the others out you'll know that this was all bush wasn't it here? And he didn't have the wall up. Barry's look. Upside down. Oh he does it upside down He's and holding on to. her eyes out when he went. That's a nice . nice . He was there when we were there. Only take three . Only take three. It'll only take three. When I got up, when I come back for me things me knickers were full of sand Well you're out at the edge of the sand aren't you? She was frightened to death. Oh that's the one where you said turn round Yeah, have you seen his nose? Study the end of his nose. Oh he's got a It's like a big boil. And this is the posters probably taken them well you can't zoom very well can you? That's a good one. Well where's the one I took of you in the tree? It might be on the other ones. Oh the two of us in the tree? Yeah. Look at him there. Oh my god. Look at me leg! What happened to me leg ? It's bent. I couldn't fit them all in. now. Oh no . These are dreadful aren't they? What? These here. Well I was only experimenting. There's no ba that's a Oh it's dreadful. That is. That's a belter that. Oh I like that one. Dreadful. And that's dreadful. I look like a witch there. Yeah. What's new? Ow! Your mother looks wonderful in them though doesn't she? Absolutely wonderful. Your mother looks well on these photographs though. Your father's a nice chap as well. He looks absolutely grand. What? What have you said on there now? He stands over me and says I'm not doing it then he stands over me oh god it's gone, it's gone, it's oh look pick them up, oh what's he gonna do? Oh how many do you want? Five Don't you ? Yeah it's like Mother you Alison. Mother, if you want to Answer phone. do it you ring up next time. And where's nan going off ? She's like you when you're when I'm on the phone. You don't have anybody interfering with you when you're answer the phone. Well Aren't you gonna get changed? That's it. You'd know you'd know what you'd had to go through if you . Ooh! Ooh! Dear me. Go away. on the phone mum. She's not comi oh what do you want me to do, pick her up and carry her over to the house? God Stuart, you are stupid. I didn't like to mention it but she er came in yellow thing What yellow thing? No no no no no. It had some yellow stuff all over it. Whatever it was. They use er herbs or leaves or Spices. There's your mother there look. He's ninety odd isn't he Alan? Him. Seventy Sixty. No he's ninety odd. Oh yeah ninety . When he had Birani Cos seventy odd when he had Birani. Yeah. He's Birani's dad? Dad, yeah. And the twins's dad. Eh? And the twins's dad. The twins's dad? Yes the twins. You know the two baby twins? The dad is the father of the twins. He's the father of the twins. They're Birani's brothers aren't they? Well half because second wife. Well who's the one Second wife. Who's the one, the one with the Yeah. Because them twins Them twins were on on the No they're the twins that were hanging off that young girl weren't they? Yeah. On that young girl. Suckling. Suckling. Suckle. Yeah . They were hanging off this young girl. Well they do feed one another 's you know, it's called families. Yeah well Well I don't know. . I could do a better job than you and Diane. There's your mother . That's a typical . I was probably snarling at you then. Yeah actually because I was . Well I was looking at you and I'm snarling at you stop bloody messing like you always are messing. Look at him there. He looks a picture of innocence doesn't he? That man there. That's the ashtray. Pardon? No. Here's that, here's that er lounger, look. Twenty four ninety nine. four ninety nine. what's on the collar? The collar and the sleeves. Here's your mother here look. You probably. No, I'm . What are you doing with a begging bowl round your neck ? Here you are Eh! Only joking. You owe me for this candy, the mother. Yeah. Well take it off the you owe me. Oh alright. He was there in the hotel because What mum, what do you want? Stuart! . He was celebrating because he'd just had a . Do you wanna lolly ice mum? It's the last one. Are you gonna take it out me mouth? Now I'm mister topsy-turvy. won't it? Mister topsy-turvy. Other way Well he won't have much to do with the greengages the night he's going. Hey I'll be the soul of discretion. Yeah. No chocolate ones left. Half past four you stupid Half past four! I'll be then. I've gotta have a look at that . Oh, which one? Well do you wanna go down and have a look at that now? While there's workmen there? Why haven't they finished yet? ? No. No! Alright It's got all they've got all leaded windows. Yeah? Have you seen ? They've got all, you know, plants in there Come on then we'll go and have a look at that. Well I'm gonna have a word with him. No I'll be Is your dad Yes! Have you finished er No. Messing about. Are you going up tomorrow? I'll have to put these er in here. And your mother's got this tape player on here. Your fantastic mother has got this tape player on here. Yes. Well if you Isn't she a wonderful mother? If you'd tape it for me you wouldn't have, I wouldn't have to have Isn't she such a wonderful mother-in-law? What a wonderful mother-in-law I have got. I have got. Isn't she absolutely wonderful? Just going to the toilet, mother. Won't be long. Okay yah. come here love. Then you just have to pay a charge don't you? Where's me glasses? I brought them in here last night. They're blinking somewhere. It's got all over it. oh they're bloody looking at me. On the flaming desk. You must have moved them from up there. Which is this one? Does ha haven't you got one on, on that one you've been to see, no? Yeah that's down the road. Where's it say? Let's have a look. Put, show In the lounge. an electric meter. Well you've gotta have an electric meter in every house love. Erm not a ten pence one? No. Oh. I thought it was one of them. It means it's inside, ours is outside. Oh I thought it was one of them fifty pence ones. Well what difference does it make? Well I thought it'd be better if I don't understand the double panelled radiators not presently connected. I don't know what it means whether it's electric or wait a minute there's some more. Did you knock on that door? There's nobody living there. Oh that's funny. I think they might have split up. Well that's what's happening all the while isn't it? I liked that one though. Yeah well you'll not get it much less than that. It's a a bigger, but I think again you're walking straight into the lounge I think. I'm not sure. You are. Are you? Yeah. And your stairs going up . Just a minute. No, the dining room. You put your staircase into the dining room. Says here. Oh, so your lounge is at the back? I don't know, to be honest. It seems a bit funny for me cos I'd have thought the kitchen was at the back so then you'd have your dining room then . Yeah but people don't always want like that. Yeah but Cos your Auntie Dorothy has her dining room in the front. And the lounge at the back doesn't she? Or she did do. Now she's got it the other way about Changed it the other way round. hasn't she? Yeah. But erm you can have it as you want can't you? Yeah. Natural brick fireplace with tiled hearth and nice Yeah. Yeah. Coal fire. open fire. Give her half you can always you've ate all my cornflakes. She doesn't usually eat the cornflakes does she? You can have er you could always have an electric one in there. Mm. No problem. Dining room. Coved and panelled ceiling with central light natural brick fire grate . You've got a fire grate in there as well. With timber mantel housing radiation high speed super gas fire in surround . It's got a gas fire in that Oh yeah. Two thirteen amp sockets, telephone point, understairs storage cupboard with shelving and hanging space . So you've got th the the stairs are Boxed off. Yeah. Boxed in. Open plan staircase leading to first floor. Double panel radiator not presently connected . I don't know well if it, there's gas fire that, well all it means is they've had it in but the gas isn't connected to the you probably haven't got a boiler . Let's have a look. I was thinking though er will we be alright with gas? We've got gas here. You've got an electrical point. Oh is there? Yeah. Ample supply of power points. Complementary hard wall tiling. Textured walls and fitted . Have you been in there? They're big houses them up . Well you've got eleven by six foot kitchen. You've got an eleven by eight foot dining room and you've got a twelve by ten foot, ten and a half foot lounge. Oh So the lounge is, is er as wide as ours. And you've got that staircase is in The dining room. in the dining room. Well where's the bathroom, upstairs or down? Yeah bathroom Upstairs or down? Upstairs. You've got two bigger bedrooms. You've got telephone points all over the house. Telephone? Ye telephone points. Well fitted with fitted suite comprising bath with Redring . You've got a shower. Does that one have a shower across there? Yeah. Didn't it? I don't know. Hanging over the bath. Oh. That's in white though the the bathroom suite in there is in white. Well it doesn't matter. The bathr er you can't beat a white bathroom suite anyway. Well if I wanted to change it that'd be no problem. Why would it not be a problem? Well . Cos he chucked one away the other day because it had a little chip in it. Cos they're not allowed to put anything in that's not perfect are they? Well you're dad's not allowed to put them in the van and bring them home either? He is. He asked him. Yeah? He said do you wanna take it. He asked everybody if they wanted to take it. It was a peach one. It was nice it was. What, just an ordinary one? Yeah a . Eh? Just an ordinary one not a corner one. Well it depends how big the bathroom. Would I be able to fit a corner one in? I don't know. I'm not used to these little titchy baths. And I don't like the metal ones cos they get cold don't they? What get cold? Metal baths. You'll not get a ba metal bath now. They putting them in there? Was that a metal? No that was plastic. Yeah. Never mind about that, with it being an old house cos Judy's was a metal bath and it was blooming freezing. Only up to where the water if you put your back on it it was freezing. Ooh well get a pillow. For god's sake. Which one is it, that one? Yeah. No. That one? Yeah. No. That one. But you've gotta go round there to get to the back garden. Yeah. But Well who lives there? I don't know but it's somebody with a motorbike. And I had a look inside and they've got the kitchen done out in like erm light wood. You had a look inside where? In her house. And she's got Why did she take you in? No . And she's Well he might have been in. . And she's got one of them erm like a stable door inside. You know inside a proper wooden door with a latch. Inside because your kitchen sort of comes out doesn't it? Have you been there? No. The kitchen comes out a bit at the back. I've been in one of the houses, that's how I know it was big, before it was done up. The kitchen comes out at the back. But there's only a very small garden. Well you don't want a big garden. And it needs a You've got the pull-in there to park haven't you? Yeah. But we had a look last night. There's not much spaces left. I don't know who parks there to be honest. And dad could knock me off on the way to get the papers. Take him for a walk Well you can get a telephone. You've got all the points. It just means buying a telephone and plugging it in. And all you pay for is the points then. You don't pay for the telephone do you? You don't pay for the connecti oh you just pay for the connector thing. Yeah. You don't pay for the Which is about fifteen pounds. Well don't set your mind on that. Cos I don't think Stuart wants to live Well you can't do anything yet. Stuart liked this one across the road. That one at least you It's a better house. that one you have got only somebody one side of you, you're not attached to the other person. Oh you'd know it if you lived next door to . Isn't he noisy, ooh. What do you mean? Putting gas in? No . Oh. You couldn't put a porch on the front of that. Tarmacadamed frontage with boundary brick wall. Tied access to reach the rear garden lai laid to lawn with flower and shrub borders . Bloody jungle. Flagged footpath. Mature privet screen hedge and mature . Is it a bigger garden than that one across the road? No it's smaller. Same sort of thing, long and narrow. And it's got a bigger shed as well. Timber shed and light power. And light connected. board utility area with exterior courtesy light. Freehold with vacant possession on co . So it's empty? Mm. It's got quite a big shed at the back. Well you can't see property unless you go in it. Well can't he get an idea as to when he's gonna get his money? What is she doing, remortgaging the house? Mm. about three months. Deeds are in her name ? No. Well yes he's signed it over to her hasn't he? She's gotta do it sooner or later. But I can't see why she's changed her solicitor . Well I can cos he's no bloody good. What are you doing there love? Eh? She's being naughty as usual. What are you sitting there for? She's had a ryvita and cornflakes Haven't you ? Well you can't keep getting the lady out can you? Course you can. Where's the other papers Alison? Pardon? Where's the other papers? Oh. Where are you mum? Oh. Do you want another drink mum? Papers love! Yeah. Mummy, where's the paper ? Round the back here. Well, I mean, this is important to read this than turn up at the garage. How much is that? Four two nine nine five. Ey I was looking at that one. It looks quite good that. It's round the back. Yeah. Well how many was there on . Loads. Yeah. Got Cos I went down with dad as well didn't I? Well we went round and erm we went had a look at them new houses as well. Which new houses? Them erm, new houses . Mm. And how much were they? When did you go with your dad? Monday. They're the ones I've been looking . Got a modern fitted kitchen. You got a That's got a Turkish bathroom. Well that doesn't matter! And you got a double gla , you got double glazing throughout there! Mm. And a garage in the front garden. Yeah. And it's not overlooked. there, yeah. Mm. Got a hall. Yep. You've got all the radiators to I know , that's the main thing. Yeah. as yours. That's a big one! Does it go ? No, not by width. Width, you got the width and the length there. And look, you've got a dining room . Well can't you step in ? This is metric. How many metres is the lounge then? Five five and a half by four and half metres. But how many metres is the dining room? Four three. About four and a half Yeah. . Put the ruler down the wall love, and then you won't have to stretch. It won't stretch. Four yeah. And you've got er the bedroom. Where? You got the staircase in there but you will have got ornamental wrought iron leading to first floor archway to your dining room . That's ten foot by eight foot, will be the back. Central heating radiators, two sockets, central heating thermostat . Your thermostat's in the dining room. Right. And you've got a ten foot by nine foot kitchen. Kitchen. Yeah. Comprises extensive range of wall, drawer and base units finished in wooden set with marble effect roll topped work surface . Oh well that's your cooker point. Enamel sink and mixer tap inserted , like mine. Insert into work surface . So it's . Complementary Cupboards tiling to splash back and prepared preparation areas . They could turn out that for what it'd cost us to tile them! I know. Seven mount sockets plumbing for an automatic washing machine , which is something. Fluorescent light fittings,entrance door, and cork tile floor . You could And you've got your You got all double glazing see! You got a . And you've got your own,landing. Yeah. Not in eventually. water cylinder with emersion heater fitted. And it's got eleven foot by nine foot bedroom. Bedroom with central heated radiator, and the sockets, and the coved ceiling. That means it's the got the l , like ours you've got Artexing. you know the, no, it's coved. Because i at the top it's not straight up to the Oh right. Got that funny bit round the edge. Mm. And the second bedroom's ten foot by nine Yeah. foot. Two sockets and, and your radiator. And own bedroom, they're quite cheap. Yeah. So same as that. Bathroom is six feet you've gotta add your bath. We'll have an extension to it, wouldn't we? Oh it's nice, that! Mm. With shower and shower curtain. Yeah, fitted. Wall tiles in bath and shower areas and Yeah. radiator. What's that thing? Access to these I suppose. Mm. And we've gotta that onto erm see about a telephone. . Including telephone point. Good garden laid to lawn, concrete driveway and parking for several vehicles,garage. A metal door timber gates to rear garden . So that's patio barbecue area , so it means it's all done like this. Ornamental wall with steps to rear garden. Yeah, must be something similar to this. And the Laid to lawn with mature shrub border and fruit trees and a lock timber fencing . Sounds quite good from that Yeah. doesn't it? You've got your own in the front. Still that doesn't matter. You've got your you've got a We can put a put loads of daffs down middle and , you can put a hedge or something in the front can't you? Yeah, or just the . Well what about ? Well it's fastened off at the back isn't it? You're not gonna get out! You're alright Kimmy you can go in the back garden. You've just gotta think about these things Kimmy haven't we? Ha! God! It's been reduced so I doubt if you'd get a reduction . Where's my lighter love? You've managed There. to walk off with lighters ! It's gone . .See this one here is something similar. Well okay , you could have a you could , you could have the chance all there and th you get charged near hundred and fifty quid, but you're getting all that extra! There might be some things in here. Yeah, that'll be Probably be a mortgage on that. This is a twenty four foot by eleven foot lounge in this one! But that's forty three! Ey it comes with Been reduced dining room! No. I , it comes it is! No, you've got a lounge and dining area. Yes. But the the bathroom is quite . Yeah. Eleven foot by nine foot. And that's electric . It's gas. Gas superpoint and electric heater . Oh, does it say that's ? Yeah. What erm The bedroom . That all sounds the best one up to now doesn't it? And that one over . Where's that? . Cos at least there you've got a bit more garden you've got a garage and then Yeah. it's semi-detached! You've also got the double glazing! And you've got Which is twelve thousand pound anyway! To get it double glazed. Plus all the . How much did you pay? Where's your nana? Here. Where's here? In the kitchen. Well, when you're ready love, your nana's ready! Yeah, gotta go to . Where's Road Mum? Where's what? Road? Er er that's from the cross onwards. Daisy Hill. On down Daisy Hill. Oh, well that must be that road down by Daisy Hill. But they are eighties in Road, isn't there? Yeah but it must be coming up the Daisy Hill. Yeah, I know where that is. Across the road here a bit further up is erm the old people's home isn't it? Oh, I thought it was down there. They're nice all round. And that's got parking space as well, you must go round the back or something. There's a line. Yeah. I'll just go and measure your ba , bedrooms. Bye! Yeah, but you've gotta me , don't forget we've got fitted wardrobes, so it's going by it's taking space off for the wardrobe. I know. It's the same size as yours up to the wardrobe and up to the door. So it's a bit small. But there's a big garden with it as well! Thirty five. But that don't say how big the garden is there though do they? you've got a toilet outside as well. It says large extensive compliance. Those . It's got a brick built storage outbuilding for your garden . trees and gateway leading to vehicular access road,access road. Side and rear boundary support . Whoever designed that don't like gardening! Well it's the best one . You've got, ah, but you've got no plants in this one. Yeah, what I like, the thing with this one is that we wouldn't have again would we? No. It's over five thousand more though. But me and Nige are saving up hard to get some extra money or put another twenty thousand down. Well once you've got it you still ne that extra to furnish it. Can't you? You only want a three piece suite and carpet. Without carpets in this one. Yeah. Are you ca if you . Shall I go and knock on the door and ask? No! You've gotta go through these an ,an , see that one. They'll tell you to book. You want something like that. Other than that you'd get rid of that one again, but you wouldn't have move would you? Well no. Three bedrooms. Yeah. And it's been reduced. Probably want a quick sale anyway. Yeah. In the position he could be . Yeah but you don't have to move into it straight away do you? But as this, how do we pay the mortgage and ma make out of it? Yeah but I mean you could leave it a while till you got some Furniture. bits and bobs. You can't even he probably, he, he couldn't, you don't have to it they can give you The thing is if they're still in it it's even better isn't it? Yeah. Cos they've kept the heating and everything. Yeah. What er,se , oh it's double glazed is it? And on top of that There's no central hea , ah yeah there is! No there isn't! Ey central heating radi Heating system. central heating radiators.. But it doesn't say what. Central heating radiator in the dining room. Yeah. Central heating thermostat, but it doesn't say what heating it is! Probably li , like that last houses was. Yeah. Yeah, you only wanna buy their three piece suite off of them. Wouldn't you? Cos we don't really need the dining room, we eat in here. And you'd be better off erm getting fitted wardrobes and that because from M F I. Do you think it's got fitted wardrobes fit in? Of course, fitted wardrobes will fit in anywhere! Yeah, but I wanna buy, it's the same size as your bedroom up to the wardrobes and up to the door. Without, without the the fitted Yeah, no with. Up to the wardrobes where yours are fitted. I'll go and measure mine. Bye! Yours is gonna be as long isn't it? As yours. But a little bit narrower isn't it? Yeah, but you'd only have to have one . You wouldn't have to have them either side like I've got. And pe , places look bigger without all this junk in them you know! Oh it isn't! Alison, if you go now love you'll miss the traffic. Okay. You what? The one up here, the three bedroomed one. Against that thirty eight. . The bedroom, kitchen, dining room and a . And a , and it's double glazed and ! They've got none of that stuff there have they? No it isn't, it's got a old gas er gas fire there. Oh. I'm gonna choose! Yeah, but okay, you don't wanna have the what's the names do you! . Let's have a look at it again please! Show it dad and he'll have a look when he gets home. Well if we re , everything ready in the van for your nan and that to get in? Yeah. And there's in the downstairs. What? The bedroom. Oh well we've got three kids in the big bedrooms haven't we Alison! Right, I'll just go and get changed now. You don't mind Alison taking you home? No, I don't mind. No, you've gotta give it me back, I'm gonna . Oh. Hope she looks after you . Perhaps she'll help come in with you. Yes. She's stupid! She ! She's going now and gonna leave me this old crap on the table!. What? Yeah. No, I haven't. I've, no I'm gonna give this to . If it was me .. . And ! Are you coming with me, yeah! But at least when this bloke comes tonight you've got something for him. Especially what he's . You haven't been out . Well I ain't had a on the same rate as me!blue they should have the same, like mine! Wouldn't you? And then Kimmy can come and visit and play in the garden! That would be nice wouldn't it? and go to bank and see what it would cost you for . It's Yeah. Well yo , you borrow your money on the house till your mor , till it comes through. Uncle Keith did that. Well do you think it's a lot? Well I don't, he said It depends on, on the houses. Well you've got an appoint , you're gotta go, have an appointment to go and see somebody there aren't you? And then in the first place you're getting enough money you can you can bash it away and that'll pay for your furniture. Yeah. You can have down the road for the . Oh, cos it'll depend on his er And down at the road there. Mm. Yes, and your . You could pawn those. You're not! It wouldn't matter what they said. Mhm, you could pawn those. No. them will come later when he got there and then you can have something else nice. Yeah. Take what you want and leave the rest, your mother'll get rid of it. Kimmy would like to come over and visit wouldn't you? You'd have to make room in the back garden! He never phoned me!. Going there? Yeah. But But it might be. But what do you think? I think it's half the point! I know. Said said he come from the that and all. Yeah. But you don't need it in the car . Yeah but, I mean yo , people are allowed now to put their own in aren't they? But you'd have to have the points fitted by them but you get your own Yeah. And just get the tested like me and your dad did. Mm. He did two rooms. I want that as well. You're not having that! No, I tell you what I'd like you know the ones ? Well what does it cost to get a little what's a name now? You just never been round to look. You go round in the sales, have a look. Mm. You're not in a rush. . Listen, I would them for you then!. Mhm. Oh I don't know ma! Mm. I will . Well I'll put, Kimmy must be there cos Kimmy's gonna be one our bridesmaids! Ay! Ay! Ay! What are you doing? What are you doing lady? Can Kimmy be one of our bridesmaids? Do you wanna be my bridesmaid? Come on sweetheart! Come on! Kimble. Come on sweetheart! I think where anybod ,ay! Come on! Alison's here to take him out don't you? Ay? QQ Ay? The, all these light fittings, I don't want to change them over. We're not gonna win! What you ? It's me and . Yes. Hello sweetheart! Why don't put it underneath. Right,. What number is it? Eighty one. Well why? Oh it's bloody dangerous, very dangerous stuff ! Twenty five. Well at least he can have a word with him about it and see what and he can do, and then you go to and see what they can do. And, and,a number five down down . Go and have a look, he proba probably for that price he might say oh, we'll leave the curtains and the carpets. You've only got to have them cleaned! But the thing is erm with that, unless they're living there they might nice. It's only the ones that have nobody living Yeah. in. But we can't go in there. It's like that one in Stanley Road. Well ring her up and see. Should I ? Not yet no, just get your out there and and then you might have a bit of lee-way might not we then? But how will I know where to go?. Well you just go to the front entrance Yeah. and see the porter. And say what type of ward? You want to go to the orthopaedic. And you go round the corner But she has to go to physio though. No! You know where the porter's desk is? I know where to go. Yeah. You go round that corner not off that way towards the wards just go from the desk right round the corner and follow it right the way down as far as you can go. You can't go many further cos there's a blank wall Right. and you turn to your left. Before you hit the blank wall you turn to your left. And does nan walk or have a wheelchair? Have a wheelchair. Cos it's a good way down. And just go to reception and take and her card and then her folder comes out as you take it . If you go now there'll be nobody there! The fracture clinic she's going to. The factory? The fla Ay? The fracture clinic, not the bloody Fracture. factory! The orthopaedic. The fra , fracture clinic! Yes. Okay. Oh no, I'm alright. We'll see ah it's just down from here . It's just . They know it's Doctor so You what? You have to somewhere. But see if I get out in . won't they? No, it's not mine actually. Do you, do you have to? Yes! It's got a garage and everything! Ooh, it's sounds nice! It'll cost you for a garage round here! When she moves the . . Get your coat on! It will be granddad's garage. Get your coat on love,ay? Yeah. Yeah, I'm coming A man now! A man tried to . Double glazing!! And it's on the, on the Station Road. Station Road. There's a fence round the garden at the back! .Go and look at the garden.. into the garage, I, I . . Oh! Soon be . Oh! When she was you know . Put your arm in. in the car. Yeah but you'll be sitting in the chair won't you love? Yep. Are you tired of walking? Put your arm in. Come on Kimmy! Better have the . Oh, hello! You little smasher aren't you? Now you've gotta get your coat on. All the curtains and everything. Are you coming then? .Yeah? Need anything else? Microwave, mincer? One or two? Lord help me if it's from ! And don't forget we're going down the fracture clinic Alison! No. She I hasn't forgotten that. I . Do you want your chocolates? No. Chocolates? . Right, what do you think ? Oh for me to go down there . I'll be very nice! Well you'll have to . Why? Well! I mean Ah, get a . What you spend you could buy something. Lots of . Coming back here after tea. Oh! Invited to . Ah, and you want want to get dad out of here ay? Bloody well ! Not a bloody cos I didn't hear him! . Oh. Fifty one. Going down Sainsbury's. Anyway, you got everything there, you got your garage , you know, you got double glazing. You got central heating! Look out garage, we'll get one. Yep. A a . Where is this ? Yeah, I've got one. Kimmy! Come here! That's it! Give us that packet there! The cigarettes! Hello! Oh,hiya love! We're alright, Alison's taking her so they're off now. Yeah. Alison's taking her in the van. But,I haven't gotta go have I? Herbert's going up I'll take her to Crewe and then she's taking her and then it'll save me a journey. I'm alright thanks love . Shouldn't Gordon, clear off will you! Well while I'm away you can . Okay! Bye! it's a . Okay Gordon. Ta tara love! Tara ! I am going to get some. Bye bye then! You best go cos the front , you know I will quite a lot. Well you might get in the fro Alright. Get your nan in a wheelchair first! Get in and get her in a wheelchair! . Ay? . Now then, what's gonna happen today? Them things are on the , can you see her? That's been on and we don't even know it's been on. No, it's all confidential. It's all sealed. It's always the way it's they're just looking for accents erm trouble is in the, if it's in the office and you're talking anywhere in the house you can't hear No. you because you're a good way away. . No, you don't put in who they are or what they are, you just say, where it come, originates from and erm what their job was. Best thing to do is take it on holiday innit? But where are we gonna go before Friday love? Mum just have a word with dad and I'll find somewhere to go! Just ask dad if I can have the time off before Friday and I'll find somewhere to go. You've gotta go looking Alison you ge , the trouble is erm when they've gotta keep coming out to show you the places isn't it? Yeah. Why,? Well no, they're going No, to sell it aren't they, but it's just yo , it's gotta be before half past four. Mm. You know,the , they finish at half Yeah. past five. They should have somebody to come out at night really to I know. you. But they can't can they? Not with all these murders that's going on with the cos there was that girl wasn't there? She was going to show somebody round for that. And then and that other one got kidnapped! Well I dunno, bet she thought it was Stu, she would like to be left with him long! It's certainly not in, in her what's a name's erm order order. Well you have to tell a load of lies as he said well it's a right shambles,nobody would go and see would they ? Ooh! Ooh, come on girl! Just take her . Mm. Ha ! Back to the drawing board! He must of been up quite a while cos this the thing's fell down hasn't it? Ha ! This property has been a subject of recent improvement work and is offered in excellent decorative order . It's that one Gordon. Right! Thirty five thousand. Get my glasses. Get your glasses. They've got a reception hall there. That's nearly on Daisy Hill. Them are good little houses them are! I quite like that house down there! Where? In . Well you've not looked at any more have you? Okay so ah there's your open fire look! The dining room, thirteen foot by ten foot. A lounge fourteen by eight. What sizes are them Gordon? Eighteen. Eighteen and ten. three that's there. Well they must of been lo , I had a load of them here! That one down the Daisy Hill is still er up for sale. Was there any more or did she just give you these? Or did you go round them yourself? Went round them myself. fire. Oh you should see see it! It has only been burning coal in it! Coal? And it's all burnt, it's burnt all the skirting board and er Good God! a bit of the carpet, yes. You've gotta go round a few love. Got a pantry in this one. Where's ? You got a fifteen by twelve. This bedroom offers potential for subdivision to two rooms . Got a big bed Or you could have an en-suite bathroom there. Pardon? En-suite bathroom. Pardon? Could have an en-suite bathroom. Yeah. Bathroom in suite comprising panelled bath, pedestal finished in white . Kimmy! Rear gateway leading to vehicular access road . No telephone in that one. It does say so with scope for improvements in that one. But that one there with da , what's a name, decorative order is not No. it's not It says on this one though. This, this one's got decorative order. Which is that one? It says Green. That's forty two. How much did these er places go up er Lego land? Forty to forty six. This is forty one. Sixteen years old Twenty , twenty twenty three. How could you sell ? And it like that. Don't tell you the size of the bathroom . No, it doesn't say the size of the bathrooms does it? Pardon? Doesn't give you the size of No. the bathrooms. Ey,it does on here! Oh And nine foot by nine foot nine by nine foot one. Well it doesn't give the size of the bathroom on here. Oh sorry, it's the bedroom! No it doesn't on here either. Mm. There's provisions for an ne , erection of a garage in this one. And these are newer again! There's one up beside, round there with a garage on it. This is an end one with a garage get a good long space there! Oh that's by what's her name innit! Where? By the Crofters That was the one you really liked before. On that estate by Crofters Do you remember them ones you brought? Do you remember? And you said oh it's got a place for even got a garage. No but it's got Is it er the flats then? Yeah. Cos it doesn't say it's It's a first floor flat. I think. Ground floor flat isn't it? No it's got upstairs and downstairs! No, if you read it. No, it isn't a flat! Oh! You always wanted With a modern bathroom. Oh ay! Well that was going for thirty nine behind what's a name there. It's Mm. nice there! And that's nice! Yeah. We'll have to . Oh, they've only got one bedroom! Yeah. This one here sounds alright. At Westbond Green. That's . Where is ? is roomy! It's thirty six this one. This twenty seven's probably Oh that's coming along from the erm It's right on the main road. Yeah. This is a lounge with exposed beam ceiling, what's that mean? That the beams It's got ceilings. No plaster on the ceiling. Mhm. It's in Lego Land! Look at The one? Yeah. That's forty. Mm. There's plaster board on it? So what they like then? Well i ,i , it's exposed beams, it's truss isn't it? Well what does that look like? The thing is, with that one nobody knows what you've got on the inside. You can turn that house so they just print it like that couldn't they? Oh yes! You've got a lot of basics first haven't you? Mm. You're talking out of our league anyway. Really, aren't you? I only got it cos it looked nice. Got a utility room. And what did gu , what did Stuart say about that one? He said, would you really wanna live next door to Alan ?for your neighbours. There's your in there. Five forty six. We're only limited to go up to forty really aren't we? I li , quite like the look of that one. Mm. Well thousand, two thousand . The second bedroom is ten foot eight by five foot eight. Just get a bed in! Get a four foot bed in it and yo Nothing to walk on! Not a lot of room one side of it! Well this is only seven by But five. Mm. The other one's ten foot two bedroom ten. Mhm. Well why does he make them so busy? First time buyers love, that's why. Yeah that's it! That's it, yeah. Yeah. For what we want, we should of bought the one this, something a bit like this house but . You don't really till you go out, look round and what you're getting for your money do you? No. Can I have some more? Yeah. Like, you're only talking about getting four walls for twenty thousand aren't you? Oh!bum bum bum . No, there's something about that one at what's a name I didn't like. Been empty too long. Like that one's been empty too long. There's a lot of work! The skirting boards and everythi ,put that one round the corner! You're better off with something like this. Mm. Ten. Be living in! Mm. That's er well that's, one occupied. They've been occupied, that one isn't is it? This i , this one here.. I don't know. What that one? Where is it? Every other one of them's up for sale! Mm. You know what's there Kimmy. That's . And they said there's some details of them shops . Mm. Well that one's got leaded windows. Yeah.. And you know they haven't been up that long. No. They've i , only been up about four or five years! Or not even that long have they? The lounge is fourteen by eleven. Yeah, that's good! Swept heads and leaded light features. Mm. Open plan staircase leads to first floor. So you've got the stairca , have you been in one of them? Yeah. What they like? Same as that one down there. But you go from the stairs and in the er You've got a kitchen diner. You've These got er a what's a name on the wall like that. Yeah. The thing is you High panelled ceiling. I think you're better loo , looking in one that's all furnished out and that, cos I can't imagine that with furniture in. Bedroom two is a five foot eight inches. Yeah. So that's one me. They've got this left for me. Yeah. Twenty four. That's, that'll price on that one. Yeah. Couple of inches on there you could You've gotta beat them! But it's a house. Can you ge can you put that er anything up the side? We are it's the end of row that is there That is, yeah. so there's bound to be Right. some space there! I know, it says garden to side.. Well you can run what you like up your garden can't you? Mhm. Well they the new ones on the front would they do that? Brand new, brand new one. Same as that. They're still building. I think this is why they can't sell cos they keep building on and people are going in the newer ones and not buying the ones that are lived in. And it's all all Well you don't want a big roaring place do you? Oh heck, no! I mean, you're not gonna fill it with children are you? Gonna fill it with little puppies! The smaller the better! I mean, I wish I had a small place. And Kimmy wants to come and visit don't you? And you'll have this garden to run about in won't you? A big garden! I mean, we got a dining room that we use about three times a year! Oh I'm not bothered about things like that, but I would have liked a decent size garden. That one that that bloke had in Wrexham, he'd got a go , good one there! Little bungalow. And like then, like dad said if you've got a decent sized garden at the back if you wanna extend you can put an extension on the back can't you? You can't extend on there. No, cos it's a one. It all depends what you're looking for Alison. You've just gotta make your mind up. Yeah but the thing is, it's something that we've got to think for life really, or we're just gonna be in the same situation in a couple of years that we wanna something a bit bigger. That's right. Won't we? I mean, we could be in a predicament that we've got to stay in there cos nobody will buy it! So how many houses are up for sale now? Prices are gonna come down aren't they? Yeah. But I said that and sort of just holding on a level now like, isn't it? Yeah, but I mean But erm but there's a lot trying to be sold like, isn't there? As you say they've gotta come down and probably we'll have to talk to them. To get, you know get the sales. The thing is if you're getting one that's lived in you're most likely to get the carpets and things like that in. Yeah. I mean like this. A brand new one you've got to fit haven't you? Yeah. Mm. And even if you buy a cheap carpet to start with it's not gonna last long as i ,i ,i No, no. you know you've gotta yo , you're talking a thousand for carpets! Yeah. Yeah. Not many people that's lived in a house take the carpets cos they won't fit wherever else they're going. No, well that's it, they just Especially if it's smaller ones cos they're probably moving onto a bigger house. Yeah. I don't know what you wanna big roaming house for? I don't want a big roaming house, but I want a decent sized house and with a bit of garden! I'm not asking for much mother! Are we? It's what you live in I think. I mean, you're not gonna be it's not as though you're gonna be having people staying or erm I mean if you're gonna get a little place with a little single bed in Can't invite people . you can't invite people to stay. Can you? Nope! It's I know, it's a place of your own, it's your own and it's not a big place to keep clean is it? I mean, the more space you have, the more muck you'll make! I know. And also it'll the bound to be building and that it'll, you watch them . You're right. Yeah. They'll each go up with . Doesn't give the rateable value on No. any of them. What do you want ? Well I , I'm not, I'm not like I said, I just want Want to go wee wees? Come on! Something to . Come on, let's go wee wees! Now, do you wanna a cup of tea? With a little Go on Gordon! Come on! you know garden and that. Well I'll bloody well you were fifty! You what love? I just want something with a little bit more garden. Yeah but there again you're paying for the land aren't you? You have to think of the land . Your land is what costs the money. Go on, if you're going! Yeah. Yeah alright. He's going with . I'll just go and pop up to the other estate agent cos if dad comes in now he'll have his dinner won't he? Where did you chuck my boots? They're outside, your boots. Filled up with rain! Good job your feet . Well what estate agent's is there up Wocking now? Where's Mollinees and ? Are they all fairly close? Mollinees is next to, yeah. And there's a few more there isn't there? Is there any more there? And then the other one is down by the , that one's still there where you pull in by Rayners is that one still there? Or is that gone? No , that's gone. Right. There's only Mollinees . And where's this Lytons Oh it's , oh I don't know. I'm going to park up the top. What, shall I just go in and say can I have all your houses that's under forty thousand, forty thousand and under, yeah? Mm. Forty two those without . Yeah up to, up to about forty five yeah? Hopefully lower er . Where's Mo , now? And what's the viewing arrangements, say. Yeah. And what about getting a thing from there. It's not count for anything. Well don't be long Alison. I won't be long. I'm only going in and saying that erm I've got twenty thousand coming to me now I want to buy an house with it. Right? Has Kimmy come in? Yeah she is. Yeah she's Yeah. in. Alright, bye! Tata love! And don't be long! Er, where's she going now? No! Can you get anything done when they're here? Can't move! Come here, I'll move it through like this. Yeah. I've left the beds open for a bit just so we can . Snow over Bexington where I can see! Yeah. Probably Alison here like, there's only you know, you just lucky . Cos if you're here buying a like, innit? The same as that. One there, thirty five! I've found that one. They're, I tell you where they are it's that row just as you're climbing up the Daisy Hill, before you get to the On the left? undertakers. Yeah. They're certainly . Little houses them. Well,i ,i There's no central heating or anything No. down there. Well they're brick aren't they? . See what they've gotta se think about is if they want double glazing, which is another er two or three thousand pound! Yeah, You want central heating, that's another Yeah. a thousand pound! These . See you've got your gas fired central heating, two beds, it's two bedrooms here! I mean Yeah. I know one's in wall. . Better if I get my glasses on Gordon! Right! Well it is you know it's you know it's er it's all blurry and ! Reception porch, is a telephone, so they've got the telephone in. Mm. Got plumbing for automatic washing machine. Gas and electric cooker points. Kitchen diner, well that's as good as anything! You only want a table and four chairs for Mm. each side of Yeah. thing don't you? Yeah. Ha. Yeah. Half glazed, oh i ,th ,th , there's no double glazing Yeah. but still! You can live without double glazing can't you? Course you can!. It's leaded, it's all leaded! Mm. Yeah. And that's forty. The other one I mean, you've got your three bedrooms but it's in a hell of state! Leave this in tin. They've had them in this one. You need to have a lot light in there don't Yeah. you? Oh that's a still a sash window. They've only got the little lights in that shop. Yeah. But i which one is it for paying? Which is it? Which is it? I don't Gordon A bulb to be honest! that's like this. I dunno. They'll both be the same then. Mm, yeah. Seventy nine. And that look, is, it's more gonna be that one! Yeah. You're gonna get the full I know. frontage th , Yes , that's good rather than that one Yes. aren't they? I know. Yeah. And Else he'd of took it from that way. I see, yeah. So the windows have been done there. Yeah. Haven't they? Yeah. Accommodation Well you haven't got your stairs in the front room for a start. No. Ha! Lounge. Fourteen by eleven. Tiled fire place open fire. Yeah. That's . Dining room's bigger than They've got a dining room. . Yeah. Tiled fire grate. open fire. . . Mm. Where? There's no central heating and there's no double glazing in that one. Mm. Thirty five, but there again what do you want for thirty five? That's it innit? I imagine they're well ke , they're well the , they're old houses them in Weatherfields Yeah, that's right. aren't they? Yes, you're right. Here they're saying and offers scope for improvement so Yeah. Da da . Well unless they go round and have a look, they're never gonna No, that's right. And you can't buy the first thing you're offered! No, that's right. That's what they're there for to provide a service aren't they? Mhm, that's right. Yeah. Like, they sort out the the best one for you Yes. And they're for best value for your money, like isn't it? As you say, you don't want to three bedroomed house and have it . . That one's an estate that one. You see, there's no grate or anything, there's just this thing on the wall with a Yeah. door on! But there's like, as though it's burnt the erm skirting board underneath Yeah. or onto the carpet there. We could only see through the windows Yeah. there. Yeah, you can't see properly there. Erm they've like, as though they've had the porch altered. Yeah? Over the door the others are flat and they've had it done although the roof Had it done. inside's been left getting just the No, it hasn't been put back, you know what I mean? Mm. And then it's like as though they've had them long windows, you know? Yeah. And they've had another it's all er metal. Like they were all yeah. double glazed. Yeah. It, it's been bricked up. Mm. But they haven't put the skirting board back or any I see. it's just been left with Oh dear! the plaster. Yeah. Mind you, that covers with paper like innit really. It does say it's er splendid. I don't know where they're looking! Mm. Yeah. Does me good to go and look through some of these, I think my God I've got a palace! You have you have mum. I haven't! You have! I haven't! You have that! It's like tumbling down a whole to your earholes from the start isn't it? No, bloody damn You know, the rubbish in it! Enough to fill about Oh three skips! Yeah. I think she wants to get something sorted so that when it comes it's open for her. it's Oh it's always a this bloody thing is! You're alright Oh! it should of gone off now Gordon, I think. They erm It's all different times and well it's turned , I'll have to get Herbert to have a look at it. Yeah. Oh, the clasp in it! Yeah, it's got all and then it'll knock off! Yeah. When's the eighteen hundred hours, when's that? Eighteen hundred No, wait a minute! It's er I can't see. Four o'clock isn't it? Ey,it's gonna knock off when it's due to come on. Yeah. Off until A. Off until B. Off until C. That's right at the moment. Off until D. That's twenty two. Oh that's wrong and all! On until D. And then it goes off Let's have a look. at C. Have a look. Yeah, well that's . Yeah. I don't understand it ! Well that's how it was before. It ey,yeah. You see, none of them's got the places tiled all over have No. they? No. Just got a little bit by the And they just cover the than it, you know what I mean, because of the I suppose it's the expense saving considering. It like and then they've tiled it themselves probably . Kitchen,ey it's tiled li , like this it's you know, the best way to do them, like innit Yeah you know? well I mean Alf did these. Did a nice job! Ey,yeah. Oh ey,it was the best thing I had done really. Because, well he did a good job! Well I mean, the thing is you get done after you move in. Yeah. You'll Oh yeah, you'll not in a place Oh no! where they're all done! No. No well the price that's the Yeah. most important thing. But she was certain like, it would be. It's er,the best deal they can get like, isn't it? Yeah. You want best accommodation don't you? My own opinion is these erm but he says he's they make them long. Well that's like all mine do ! Well the type of building it is. I mean, you've nothing in, they don't need a big place! it me as well! I've lost the damn thing now! What's that? It's over there. Oh yeah. Mm. You got your central heating and you've got no erm but they're only small! And they sort of you know where they are don't Where? you? Not at all. I don't actually. You know where you used to go down to that Mall Court Yeah. Well they're down, that's that road that running up Oh yeah! But they're pretty new Oh they haven't been Yeah. up that long! Yeah, I know. Oh you see that they are aren't they? See it,presented in excellent decorative order and has many interesting features making it's Yeah. internal inspection worthwhile . Internal inspection worthwhile. That's it, right. So I mean yo , there could be things in it that it could be left there, if there's, but you started Yeah. in a small place like that, there's not much you're gonna be able No. to take with No. you. No Is there? there's not. Carpets and things like that if you're going for a big Ey. place. Yeah. That's a . You'd have to leave them with And in the same you know, I mean er two or three years so there's not gonna be much, and it's only been a couple that are gonna look after it aren't they? Yeah. You see, these up here's been up a long time. Ey,they have . But I noticed the timber you know, round the house, I look what you Oh yeah. look at. And er a lot of it's rotten!board's no good! That's never been . No. And half the You can see missing and Yeah. That bothers me, that fire that's been there's only Oh yeah? one fire. Yeah. And then half the ceiling's knocked down. It all wants doing inside! It's all gotta be done! But, in the same room as the fire that's been in it Where's No the fire? it's where they've had that porch built up. Yeah, I know that! See, they would of had the porch I see, yeah. and they've added tiles Right. built on tiled. Oh . But I had and I it's opened . Like there's nothing across the back of inside Yeah, there is a bit but it's, it's like somebody broke it, broke it, so it's half Oh . half in and half out. They're all broken Oh yeah,. tiles there. It's double glazed, but then so was this. Yeah. That one's reduced to forty. You could go there, you Well could make an offer you they might get another thousand off it. Yeah. Especially if there's a lot for sale down there. That's right. They the, the windows like, in the door well the these are a good type of windows! Yeah, I mean like he You know, for what's for what's going like. Yeah. They're good. Yeah, and they're double glazed you say, these are they? No. No. No. No, they won't be on that type er ju ,. They still probably there is enough room to get a bit Well ey there's a lawn! Ah, with any luck , you could make a vehicle access there and a But you can you know? Well even a car port for a start. Yeah. yes, the end one's got a lot of roo , you know? Yeah. It's er yes. Then you're better off as you say with an end one . one er At the you know, one in the middle of the road like, any how. They only wanna small place, you don't wanna a big No. rambly . Well it's it all adds up don't it like? You're heating costs is less. If you had Yeah. a smaller place. Yeah. You're lighting costs are less. Mhm. You know,the , there's all these little things. The what's a name isn't it? No, we can hopefully say they don't know any of them now. No. Mind you, I think probably cos it's been poll taxed hasn't it? That , oh oh yes that's , yeah. Yeah,they bloody changed ! Mm mm. Still still I think we all I tell you, about forty. Ey up she here! She's heard me! Come here! Come here! Tap tap. You see you got your old one staircase in there. Yeah. Well it's er it's, it's a very Warm glow warm Spacesaver, it's like that. Yeah. one. Yeah. Pine panel ceiling in the kitchen. With twin eyeball spotlight . Yeah. I hope you're not doing anything all afternoon mother! Where was Lyton's then? Lyton's was next door to the place. She was the nicest in these here. . No. They will give you and they'll come out on Sunday there as well! Well that's forty seven! Oh well, she said they'd drop that one down. Don't believe the prices..! They'd only got one. That's up by where Steven lives. Really? Mm. . That's I said across the road from innit? Mm. She's told me all about the walls. She come and help me. She said that But you've only got one from there! No, I got loads! She was telling me all about all of them and on the roof. And where's David ? The other side of , next to the post office. It was Who told you there. She said most of them are lived in anyway so you can go anytime it suits. Oh. None for you Kimmy! Cos it's all for me! That one's empty. There's a telephone in that one. Did she say most of them would come down? Offers in the region of Mm. So you'd probably get a election won't it? Geoff , vote Conservative with with his dog and his wife. Along Oh, can I have a look! park and his dog Lassie. That was him putting them through wasn't it? Yeah. No it wasn't! Oh, some by the door in case your time's up! Oh wanted a word with you see how much money you've been putting in my , and we're going for a mortgage now. Is it a man or is there a woman? Man. What's he like? He's got glasses. I dropped one over there! But I know, I ever since . Oh. Pooh! That's ba ! Oh dear! Talking to did I tell you I got a since I moved that plate. It'll only be the erm who will you be voting for when you go? I'll vote in there. On the day or Conservative. Yes. Could if I wanted to! But, Don't change the rest of them. No, for the er Want a bread roll? Campaign for the . He said I'd go to . Why? What did he say? I thought you'd be Or will you just voting for the likes of Barry ? Well yes. So he'll be up against Barry . Yes. Does he work for Redruth I don't know. Dad, you're reading between the lines. Because it's dad says he works Redruth Cos he, he reads between the lines! He'd just gone down there because er . Well I've tried it occasionally. Might be Conservative . Well usually comes. A at er . Who? He's not standing for parliament! Oh, my word! You mean Barry or er He must of been picked from the Conservative to stand would he? Dad's a , dad's just nominated you for the big in the campus. Does he pay you? Hey? No? I did it for one and he didn't get in! He got sold down the line. Was that Uncle Keith? Mm mm. I thought Uncle Keith went for it once? He did! And I didn't canvas for him, I just marked up. Well this Oh well this was only for the local! Who did you canvas for? Uncle Fred! And didn't he get in? I've ticked you off for all these here. There's a this. Oh, very good of you dear then! Is that alright? And a , that postal road, you can go walking for this . What we were asking is he will they be Yes. equal to Barry ? Yes. And he works for Redrow well is he gonna do anything for me? Well I'll go to canvassing and I'll get your name down in there. I'll say look! I'll persuade everyone to vote for you just get a job with . So he must be on Alan and Dee. Cos he's a he's a conservati , he's been acting in a lot of conservative party for the past thirteen years! You know, he's been picked for the conservatives to stand has he? What's his name Ally? Geoff. Well you won't be pok Geoff , you won't be voting for him mother! So! Well no, we know who you vote for! You don't know! There you are see! See,i , if we, if we'd have said that about you erm, nobody knows what You, you don't know , nobody knows! Nobody knows who I vote! I told tell anybody! What about the Green Party dad? Well that hasn't come through yet! Give them chance! At least he was firs , he's got his his literature first. Well Barry was round the other day wasn't he? Shouting and blasting all over the loud speakers! I hope it comes here! Well why not! Have you ever wanted anything off him? Yeah when we got his autograph! Well you got something! There's not many people got his au and he sent you a Christmas card! Did he? Mm. Yeah! Sent you a Christmas card? Yeah! He didn't help in anyway but he did get a lot He sent you Christmas card! Ha! I hope you're back in your new house ! Ah,! I'm fe , I'm seat to the bloody right! Yeah! But he But I know and he got a petition up and So he comes in . Didn't remember. Shall have to wait that in the window you know, my like the other one. The the, the two the big window made like the other one on the other side and er, what else was erm oh, to have the heater serviced Well he's as sure as hell gonna be round the old people's homes! So the best thing is, is get him by the scruff of the neck and ask him what's he gonna do about them things that you fell over twice! And see what Yes. he'll do for you! Yes, yeah. Well, I mean we all erm Not too much they all signed he's on the make! they all signed this petition. Seeing that you don't want er we don't like our the other boy! The other conservative man, see! If you can get Neil Kinnock in, and by George, you'd get them things done in your house! Yes. Seca , Secretary of State for Wales he's gonna be! Where are they all Gordon? Between the elections, knock on your door and say, is there any problem I can help you with? I don't know. Look! They get paid Look! enough Look! and they could go, have an area A week. And every house go round the doors. Not now! They Don't want them now! They have a That's it! surgery every week! Or every fortnight for problems! Right, and a lot of help you get there when you go there! But they have one! Well I mean they So yo it's up to the But where is it? You get more sense out of a virtually, than what you get out of that ! Well I mean, he did we , he we , he did send letters to the council. And then, I mean, but every one of us had a letter off him and said he was, he was doing what he can with the council But what? and er Well, the windows. The windows And it's all been done and all been put straight and everything, you got your windows done? No. No! No, well he wa it was the council, they said they couldn't afford it. They hadn't got the money to do it. And every one of us in that, in we had a letter every one of us, from Barry . Yeah, but it doesn't cost him anything! We're paying for all his postage ! Mother, I thought And the you said I the envelope they get from I hope you haven't got this on tape here! Doesn't cost him postage or anything that! Well he said in the council. But this is catching names on the tape! I don't give a sod who it is! And he sent the letter back what he'd had, had off the council in with his letter. I'm not calling the Labour party, I'm calling the man, that he's been in too long ! Bloody film star he ought to be, not a and he you see him on the television, he's been on a few times at night! Have you seen him? Yeah. Who Barry ? Have you seen him? Yeah Yeah. catholic. Yeah but what, I I remembered you saying that erm there's two subjects you don't row on and that's erm religion and politics! I'm not rowing! But I just said, where are they all the years when they're not having an election! They could knock on the door, or they could sell send their servants! Then they'll be getting the best jobs for it,i , in . To ask, have we got, have you got a problem? It was only round the old folk! Every one of them! Not just Labour, Conservative, every one of them will get the same answer from me ! Yeah alright! You the only difference is Barry has been elected our member of parliament and he should do it! The others haven't! Well he wouldn't do that,a , that's council that wouldn't do it! But have we got any have you got any Mum! The council are the, the, the your Conservative, your Labour and your Liberal! So if the council refused it at the meeting it's their people that's refused it! It all goes to er erm to the planning and everything. They have meetings about it! They're getting paid near, over twenty odd quid a meeting ! Well they wouldn't the council . Well no it's, it's the same councillors that's come to your door that are sitting in on the meeting and saying no, it's impossible! I've no time for any of them! I never have had, and I never will have ! They sent a letter This is a prime example ! This place! And they , and they Where were they! Yeah. All they did was take photographs and, and send somebody round to try and stop us getting a home here! Yeah. Well what about ? Well, we don't They were big. we don't want big windows, long windows now! Erm so that front doors to that How many ? wall, to that Barry is the damn council! He started as a councillor! Yes. To get ! Well it's the council that refused cos they hadn't got the money. Well while he's raking it in every bloody week for sitting on his behind in parliament there, he can pay for them ! I will. Well alright, I mean them long windows, as you say,up here, erm low! I mean yo , you've got to climb up to wa er, curtains up and that haven't you? Yo , you happen to fall! Instead of putting nice little windows in! I mean, every year they that er people are a year older! Well a ,i that design was submitted and they passed them! They're the first to be built in Buckley them, main road. Why did they them they build them? Yeah but I'll when I a , where I am. They were the first to build in Buckley Main road. Call them the luxur , the luxury bungalows! They're all in envelope next! How big's your nan? Ay? How big's your bedroom? Well it's a nice size! I got two wardrobes in and dressing table. And a chest, and another chest. The thing is putting the if what you can round a bed isn't it, you can? Well I mean the , there's couples lived, er, lived in there haven't they? And there's couples still living in there. Barry has got a cover, they've all gotta cover the whole of haven't they? Not just their own little patch this time. He's probably not bothered cos he knows he's got in again! Pardon? He's probably not bothered about he's knows he'll get in anyway! Oh he'll get in! But what's-a-name usually for Barry doesn't he? Er that . Well what's special? Related to your granddad. He's ? Yeah. He's But a small one. well he's the right hand man for Barry isn't he? Who? What the hell's his name? I know who you mean. Yeah. , yeah. Yeah. Tom ? Yeah. Arthur . His granddad That's what erm last year. His granddad was er my dad's brother! Uncle Bert. I was gonna ask you, you know Arthur ? That's the one! Well i , is his wife's name Betty? No that's his brother. Well has Arthur got a Arthur has got two children hasn't he? Yeah. Well, how many children's Betty got? Oh you got a few cos she's got Kevin, he was at home. Yeah. Yeah. And she, has, have they got a girl as well? There's one. They've got a daughter as well. Cos I'm sure the girl that comes down the sh , I'm sure she's Betty's daughter. Really stuck up! Cos Betty was really stuck up weren't she? Betty who? Betty, who's from down our . Ha! No, she thought she was. Ha! Oh she was stuck up though wasn't she? Who's knocked that off? We are just signing off so mum can have a swear ! You never see much of her children do you? Don't think I've ever seen the , oh,yo ,yo the first one a couple of times. Prince Andrew and er, and Fergie? Yeah! Oh! Marriage is over! Well that didn't last long did it? No! Cor that's I thought it had been Diane and the Charles! Cos you certainly , some people have holidays and that! Well I don't think they can mother ! Will he be next to the throne in Well I don't know! I suppose anything's possible! Well I mean er Prince Edward did didn't he? The eldest one. So, I mean, he'd of taken before erm before the before the Queen now. It's only , I don't know why ! What did you say love? I said Prince Edward did! I mean he, he should have taken the throne. He abdicated didn't he? Oh yes you're going back a few years! Well, I mean a , and the Queen was nothing, er well, the Queen wouldn't have been a Queen now would she? Well she would if th , he'd had no children! And then she'd of come maybe. Well I imagine so! I don't know But she'd have been he'd have been before her wouldn't he? Edward give it, gave it up Yes. before George came didn't he? George took over from Edward. Duke of Windsor. Yes. Alright. He abdicated so George took over! He was to be the next King wasn't he? But he abdicated so Geor , King George took over. Yes. But I know it was er Geor And Elizabeth George was George's daughter wasn't she? I mean, her father got killed in er a plane crash didn't he? Who? The Queen that is now. King George? No, he died No. of cancer! Erm no, her father was killed in a plane crash Iris! Who Queen Elizabeth? No. Er, the Mother Queen her husband. Oh I don't know! Yeah he was killed in the, in a crash. Well no! He took That was King George! The Mother No, the Queen! The Queen and he Mother was King No, King George was i , reigning when I got married, nineteen thirty five. And then the other King Ge , then his son King George come up. No, his name wasn't Geo , there was only the fa , only George that was on that was er it was erm Who was King, Gordon before Queen Elizabeth come on? George was it? The fifth and the sixth was it? George the fifth was first, and then George the sixth! George the sixth. No, it's the fifth was la , reigning when I got married. In nineteen thirty five. And Queen Mary. Cos he had the silver, they had the the ju er co coronation and it er in the May, as your dad and I got married in the June. Well when did George come to the throne then? Well he was on, on the throne in nineteen thirty five! . Nineteen thirty five! He was reigning when I got married. You're on about the old King George! Well it was only one King George! No! His dad Are you sure? was George! Are you sure? It was him with the beard cos they always said the Duke of Windsor took after him because he was Yes. a ladies man was n't he? Mm. Yes. King George, I can remember he had a beard. Well that's the old King George and then we had King George after! That was married to the Queen Mother! Which is Queen Elizabeth's mother and father! Oh yes, I know that! Well he had a Oh yeah! Yeah, go on, yeah. And then, King George died. Queen Elizabeth's mother de , er father died. He was killed in a crash! He wasn't love ! Honestly he was Iris! Was he Gordon? The old King might have been killed in a plane crash! No, he wasn't that Maybe George the sixth was! He died of cancer didn't Yes. he? Yeah. No, it's not that one. He died and Princess Elizabeth was in Kenya at the time! She was out of the country! Yeah, but she didn't know she was gonna be Queen though. Well which one was killed in a cra , in a aer , ere aeroplane crash? It was! That was her father! It could be her father then. And the Queen mother was her mother. King George didn't get killed in plane crash mother! He died of throat cancer! No, King George was reigning a , and that's the only King George I know! I could be wrong cou , I could be wrong I don't know! But I thought her father's name was Edward. Erm not Edward. Cos I mean she was Edward was the was the at the brother of George that abdicated wasn't She it? she was Yeah. away. She was away at the time She was in Kenya! Yes. And And her dad died of throat cancer! Oh! Cos he was a heavy smoker! And she was to , she took over the Queen when she out of the country! She wasn't crowned till after but she was told! Oh I know she came yeah. And they said it was very bad news for her, you know? Eh, cos he didn't reign that long. Who got killed Herbert? Duke of Kent. The Duke of Kent got killed in a plane crash. Oh that's right! There's the er it wasn't er the Princess, er the Queen now, was it her father? It wasn't the Queen now's father was it? No it was his brother. It was her brother wasn't it? Yes,. They was all brothers weren't they? Edward and the King and the Duke of Kent. They're all brothers! Edward, the Duke of Kent and the King, they Yeah. were all brothers. Edward was next in line but he abdicated for Mrs Simpson so George That's right. came in line and he got it. And then the other brother Duke of wa , what? Kent! Kent got killed in a plane crash. Yeah , I knew one was killed in a in a plane crash but but who was the Well that's him. who was the Queen's, er husband? George! No! And it was also King Geor you know George was he then after him? His dad was named George wasn't he? There was George the fifth and George the sixth. Yeah. Tha yeah. Well George was the one that went that's the King and the Yeah, but his dad was named George as well wasn't he? George the fifth. But the other one got killed got killed in a plane crash, yes. And Edward abdicated, and he went to Paris, France. Yeah, he wouldn't . Yeah. And then the And then the the Queen took over. And the other one got killed . She wouldn't have been the Queen if Sha he hadn't ab , abdicated would she? No ! No. I know, that's right. But had he not of abdicated he would of been the Que , King. Yeah. Well who would have took over when he died? Would Queen Elizabeth still have had the ? ! Well he don't does he? Yeah. Oh! Yeah but he ha , maybe he hasn't been dead that long has he? Er no No, cos he wasn't very old! If you say last to die, yes. What . Well would it have been George's daughter? Well you see . Hiya! Good day Madam! How are you? Alright. Doing a gig aren't you? Down at the R A F club, yeah. yes, it was in a bloody scrap yard and this Jack come to me we had he had mentioned it before but he said we said we're not bothered, you know, he won't er that was in there. Where the bloody hell have you been he said ! I've been cos I haven't been to the R A F club for ages there. No. No. And he said, are you still doing that one on the twentieth of March? I thought buzz buzz buzz! I said,oh I'll let you know tomorrow Jack . So I got hold of Dave and I said ring Stuart and ring I didn't know, it was David just, sort of, saying that, it's something your going to do. Ring re the It was the drummer it was and ask, do they wanna do it like? Yeah. They both, I rang Dave back on the Sunday and he said they both wanna do it so took it! It's money innit? Did you get your car? Yes, I got it, yeah, yeah. What day? The thirteenth or the fourteenth? Oh I got it on the bloody Saturday didn't I ! Got it on the Saturday. You're alright then. Well, six fifty I got if for like, I try give him a six hundred and he ummed and ahhed and then he said well he said well I'll take the six hundred he said, can you manage the hundred quid over the next five or six weeks? I said, well I can't to be honest with you, I said I've gotta pay back what I bloody Yeah. borrowed like! Yeah. I said, I'll tell you what, I said er cos my mum lent me seven hundred Yeah. down. Yeah. I said I'll give you six fifty, so I'll have to try and scrounge the other fifty quid to tax the bloody thing! Yeah. He said I don't know what the car owes me he said can you come back tomorrow about half past ten? I said yes alright then, which was the Saturday like. So I left it till about twenty past eleven didn't I? I thought oh I'll keep him on Tenterhooks,ey so I got, he said er where you been he said? I thought you'd changed your mind! He said it's alright I'll do the Oh. I said, oh thank you very much. But they put the tax up in the budget didn't they? On the car tax! Yeah. So I went to tax it with the fifty five quid as I thought! I had to pay the new increase! Yeah? Yeah. Sixty pound fifty it cost me for six months! Oh why, it's more isn't it for yes, I know it's more it was always more before. Yeah, it was fifty five wasn't it before, half year? Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And what is it now? And what is this ? Sixty pound fifty. Sixty pound, is the Oh! Like I, I've taxed this from the first of March like. Yeah. Yeah. yes, if they'd have done it from, say, the first of April fair comment like, I wouldn't of said Yeah. you know, wouldn't Yeah. of said nothing, oh well it's gone up, it's gone up like! Yeah. I know. But I paid for the first of March so I've lost li literally fourteen days haven't Yes. I? Yes. But I still had to pay the new increase like! Mm. From the first of Well it's March like! same as me. I only tax mine for six month now then,ay? Yeah well it But er they what's er name, it'd cost me fifty five quid end of this month! Yeah. Know what I mean? But I've got this ea , other ten quid going on it! Well,fo , fortunately Yeah well, it was right it was cheaper to do it for twelve months anyway. Oh yeah that's right, it was cheaper. It was er what was it, hundred quid weren't it? Yeah. And it was hundred and ten if you did it over the two six Two months like. Yeah, that's it. Oh yes, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So you Choose six months you know? like, yeah. yes. And it's gone up again ! yes, it's gone up again yeah. . Oh never mind! You've got your wheels haven't you? Ooh Christ, yes! You got your wheels! Didn't recognise you! Oh God tha , they always leave that for me start off! Stick him underneath! Yeah ! Oh ! You like that, do you ? it's alright. I've seen in real life,! Yeah. How's your mum? Alright, she's ah, been this morning and er they took the sling off now, she's getting onto use it again. Is she better when she stands up now? She used to Oh yes! What is was, she gets with Kimmy barking she gets Yeah. herself worked up on it. She's frightened of, sort of, opening the door thinking that the dog might get at her Get her. I mean, if she'd have just shouted! I said well the dog knows Mike, and Yeah. and Mike's used to the dog, she wouldn't bother. Oh no! But she just gets up a bit quick. Quick, yes. So, yes she's alright now. But if Good! if erm, you knock you know, you know my mum's still here yes. so if I'm going out, I'll leave the money under here anyway. Okay love? Alright chuck! So Tim won't have you! I'll ignore him! See you Friday anyway! Tara chuck! Tara now! Oh yes, how is she? She's alright. She said, oh! I said how you feeling? She said, I'd like to see a . He said after she'd . yes, it's a shame! She's got two she's got daughters and Can you post that for me please? Yes. And she but er I think one lives in Hull. Near Hull,cos I said , I said where are you going? Oh she said,I don't she said ! We'll have to see. She's had her teeth . I think that house of Joe 's is up for sale isn't it? It's all which house did he, cos there's two there isn't there, Gordon? You know Joe, who I mean? Oh,fo him, down the Ponderosa Down the Ponderosa ? Joe, who you used to go and see. Oh! Joe and Yeah. yes! Was it the one that side or this side? The the bungalow this side. You're going down the road Yes. There's two bungalows, or three bungalows isn't there? Two. Two? It's that one there. Not the first one No! you see. I'm this way! You're on the main road now Yes. and they're on that side. That's it! Yeah, that's it! Now which bungalow is it? It's that one. Well it's, it's all empty! Is it? Yeah. Oh course, she died didn't she? Yeah. Yeah. I, I had But I thought she had a son living with her? I think there was two sons weren't there? And one son Well I'm sure if you ever Yeah. you go past Yeah. down there, you have a look. yes One of Well I them's like I like as though it's all been emptied and, and erm I don't know! yes! Well I imagine Right. that it would go up for Yeah. sale wouldn't it, between them? Mm. yes! The family like . I only only saw it cos it, it's No that on a bad corner there and I don't like, I don't take No! my eyes off the road. When did I,? Oh! I was gonna get this when it's chilly. What, when they've all passed there? That's right! And I go back door here. Yeah. Yeah. At like, like you're it's, you come into a bend and you've got to watch it and I er just had a quick glance at it like, isn't it, you know? It's the second one. Yeah. And it looks as though it was all whitewashed and . yes, and this new caravan one? Tie them Yeah. at the front like, But it looks , you know? As though Yeah. it's been all what's er named. Done , yes. And I thought, well I , like, I know she's got married but I don't know Yeah. about the others. yes. I think one of them's separated. Aha. And he came back home. Oh yeah. But as for the others, I don't know. Well last last year she came to the erm the social, we have it in November, a big social event er you know? Well they all haven't got a soft mum and dad like you. mum? Seven and eighth on there. Oh I'll, I'll tape it to myself. Eh? What? Still have her on it. A minute for that please. He's not very good at making gravy is he? No. What are you waiting for Kimmy? She's waiting to follow me upstairs. You're not going upstairs. You want a coat on outside. I've still got the runs by the way. I've still got the runs by the way. I might not be here next week. I've got to go and see the doctors I think. Do you want to take a are you still taking malaria? Yeah. No, it was erm Aye. Well when you've finished taking them, three pound odd a packet they are. I don't care. There's a bug going round, so I hear. Why didn't he take that with him and put it in for a minute, for god's sake. Pardon? Pardon mother? Mm mm Did you drain the water off them? lovely sprouts. Didn't put any in actually cos er in when they er freeze. Here, put this over the top. Or your potatoes will go dry. Thank you mother. Does he want a smack in the mouth? What do you want Kim? I'm trying to use that one and then you can put your fresh one in. You'd better do it. Hasn't it been a lovely day? Very windy out. Very windy out isn't it? Your nan's missing some chocolate eclairs. Missing some chocolate eclairs? Oh dear, I wonder where they've gone. Hang on I'll have a look in the safe. Hark do I do I hear the pools man coming round? Mm nice. Not steak again. Steak seven times a week, well. You're gonna mess with that and it'll be crackling all over Did you know? And has me mum been? No. Well where was she this morning when I was phoning? Where was she this morning when I was phoning up? Eh? Alison. Alison . God, the whole house smells of sprouts now. And steak. Alison. You've gotta write down who speaks on it. Have you? Oh this damn thing! Every time I come in this sink it's full of pots. Isn't it awful. My god isn't it terrible. And I'm sick of having steak every night mother. You're dreaming again Can't we have porridge for a change? Who's she on the phone to now? She's not on the phone, she's talking to me mum. Drag it off his knee Kim. You can have the gravy. And that's all you're getting. Is there onions in that gravy? No. We did have some but it went. Alison must have I don't know why Alison puts water in these cos you don't need it. Cos there's water in the frost. Hang on Kim. Chucked a big piece of salmon away, Herbert didn't want it. Oh! Well I didn't know whether you wanted it or not! I did two steaks and he only wanted one. Well I don't know whether you like salmon or not. Do you? Mm. The food your daughter gives me anything'll do . All I've had today was a pastie, I thought I'd fast a bit. This fasting makes you hungry. Doesn't it Kim? Damn again. Take something for it. Here you are mate. Very nice that, very nice. Eh? Me stomach starts to churn. Everything I eat my stomach starts churning. Why does it record on that way and yet it's running that way? Because you're probably doubling doubling up on the recording. What do you mean? Will you stop it! Are you ready my little Does this look a mess? swamp duck. Yes. No. Does it look a mess? No it doesn't. It's all creased innit? Well it was er you washed it. I didn't. Well does it or doesn't it? No it's okay. Good. I'll just go and get the Volvo out. Aren't we going in the Rolls? No, forget that. Who's acting the ? That's what they damn want isn't it? Does it want some new batteries in? It's flickering. Yeah. Alright evening mother, evening father, how are we? You alright? Ready to go? Go and see Sally visiting picture looks nice eh? the picture looks nice eh? Where are you gonna put the gold? It stinks of er Eh? it stinks in here, what you've been varnishing? Where just walking at the moment at cottage hospital now. Evening I'm the good looking one Hello How are you? Yeah, hi you I heard your mother's voice Hello love hello, how are you? I How you keeping? Oh, I'm not too bad love, cos how are you Alright thanks Oh You're looking well, have you been ill? Eh? You're looking well, have you been ill? Who's is this here? No you're alright, don't worry, it's alright there, don't worry do you want it moving? Want it Put it down over here Yeah I put it, I'll put it there and if you want, if you want it back put it on for us I'll bring it back for yeah, or I might not These chairs are a bit heavy aren't they? Yes they are a bit Eh? They are How are you ladies alright? It's alright don't worry Don't worry, don't worry, you're alright Oh they all fight round here Well you're looking well Oh I look well I Yeah I Well you pair have been fighting and all have you? Eh? You pair have been fighting as well have you? No I've only just come in Have you? Oh right Well she knows that she can't get Three bracelets eh? Brilliant, yeah. I didn't go back to It's very pleasant here isn't it? Yes and Ah I don't know what it'll be like , just looking for the grapes I No you're alright, don't worry, I could do with a week off work Did you call to Yeah, call going up, then there was a letter and then er went back up and just books, rubbish and then she had a party I'm afraid to put one in the kitchen I, that's right, with a Do you know it was this morning Oh I, a few weeks A few days they close it down and then it was That's right yeah And then the doors are closing I, that's right Brenda's got something like that in yes she was worried about the television No it won't get better No Still got a bit of fire in them Well now and again like I that's what I mean Yeah it's not like they're gonna be no like old times in the morning That's right, I probably economise You'd be no good working for standing there waiting for you'd be out as a fact your hair at the back, don't tell anybody you're a hairdresser for god's sake. Pardon? Where's Kim? Over at Dave's, Dave's at er, we're talking about the er, there, talking about the greengage and er, says oh to Jackie, he said, oh yes Stuart's the M C for tonight, M C, M C, what do I want M C for? I said well it gives them a bit of panache don't it? Well, oh probably, here we go, got one on ain't take No by the time you get up the road and get back why people really along here I don't know I don't know , I don't know you don't have I won't take this, I'll leave it here yeah well you're using my well, in the left drawer on top of the fridge, lying beneath the fridge yes I know Ta ra love, see you later, take care now She didn't say what, she's, she's had a bit of a set back since then, she's had gall bladder trouble you know Oh yes she's got over it quite well She looks well doesn't she? Yeah, yeah Though she eats well though you know, oh does she, eats all her meat Ah well among others, you know we, me, me sister lives at home well, I've got another younger sister well we have er, you know, from, from that's right, yeah But my mother's no trouble is she, eh? No trouble No, no at all and she's always busy either knitting Oh she's or she's doing a embroidery or doing something alright and she said , because don't like the idle hand Idle hand if she's not doing that she's winding wool ready, she does I don't know whether you've ever seen oh yes but I went to Lake in, in Cumbria, and I bought, but I saw, the first time I've ever seen it, it was like a wood and it had made, and it had got the four nails at the top Yeah and she uses that you know and she makes rugs and They're, they're wonderful those and then she stitches them all together Yeah, yeah I made in September yeah, I made in the West Chest , Cheshire a she was making a quilt wasn't she? Oh I a back, a back rest Made a big pile like, patch like that you know Yeah and another big one, ooh it was lovely She'd been in a car accident, she was there, er broken pelvis Oh dear No, she was Oh I, I send me one, she made herself Yeah I, yes, oh She said would you like to me to get you Are we going now? chucking out time chucking out time and that, I said I couldn't sit down and do that I said, I Ooh she won't be in here that long No, you'll be, you'll be at home before the on your feet I don't think I'll be that long No No it just depends when it stops weeping you see Oh My doctor said Oh you know, well I'm, I'm quite happy, never going out, never see the outside world except I go in the ambulance Yeah, oh yeah you're happy Oh very happy very good I don't worry about er, you know, what's going on outside No, no No, don't it's terrible going out of business they haven't got the money have they? Are you here for good? Here for good in here No, no I've got to get out as soon as I get, I've, I've promised at night I'd have, I'll, I'll have someone for a night, I've got to have someone at night as well as the day That's right, yes I didn't want to, but No, well if you get someone trustworthy Well I, I, I, I've see Mrs I've had her for so many, many years Oh well but you see, I thought, I've got to get somebody strange now, for, for, for night time Oh it won't be the same, I, I'm sure I can manage on me own, well I'm sure I can, but they say I can't, I've a another fall plus a Yeah it wouldn't matter would it? I don't know I can't sleep Well I don't know if you've had a good innings. Well I don't know Your here as long as he'll let you stay Well that's right we can't go before our time No I know. You can't jump the gun No you can't. Who won with the football last night Liverpool or? No, Italy ten all weren't it? Yeah tonight Tonight Oh Do you know her? No I'll ask her Oh yeah I didn't spill that one at all No Now where you going now? What times getting on now Ten past eight Trying trying to get rid of us Yeah, I Warm in here though, isn't it? Is it warm? Yeah Are you warm? That's right are you warm enough? I'm warm enough, yeah Right Patience That's it I think When are you going to do the bucket work Sally? There's all that bucket work waiting to be done, eh, the bucket work I, huh, bucket work, leave that there now, getting the tray from the bottom, oh yes you need shoving it up, oh. Oh never mind you'll be in a bungalow soon Oh yes you'll be in your bungalow soon how soon now? How soon? Oh it depends when she's going to have the builders in Oh She wouldn't leave by there No No Well she don't want to leave, I think it's a silly thing to leave it Mm you miss all your friends and everything you know. Elsie had these lights Oh yeah that's what we're gonna have he said we see, I we're gonna have them We see , we see, have them You can't take your money with you. You can't But it's something, something in you, you have to rush don't they? Why won't they wait? Why should they? Why should they? No, why should they? I have Take the rest of it pleasure spending No why, they've got lives of their own Well let them live it, don't want saving for the children, no, they don't want nothing Well They've had far more than what we've ever had Yes, you're right there, yes mind you I'd like to be like that Yes, yes Eh, but have nothing in this farming today is it? Mm? Nothing in this farming today though No, no with these lads no oh yes they stand for little money yeah, that's right you know oh it is, aye. used to go round with the milk you know Yes I know I remember him going, going off with the milk Yeah Yeah Oh I Lady of leisure I wouldn't exactly say a lady of leisure She looks very well I get up and I'm, in fact I lit a fire and his breakfast is ready when he comes in It is as well I eat quarter to eight What time? I get up about seven I get up at five I have to get up I used to get up It a be a good now though, wouldn't it? There's a lot of houses there now though I have to take care you know, I have to take tablets with me everywhere I go. I keep very well really, I do quite a bit of walking, you know? Yes And quite a lot of writing too But I don't and it's not on a bike either No, no, he's just bought me a car now What you got? Well I had a Fiesta, I've got a Volvo They do, don't they? Yeah Alright squire? Alright squire Eh? No I don't know that lady over there Good evening Derek Good evening sir, like a pint? Oh I wouldn't mind sir, thanks a lot, that's awfully kind of you. Would you like a pint of Er, go on then if Seventy shillings, oh that'll do. No it won't Think about it Yeah, I know I did. Well it's not bad for seventy shillings see that Go on, come on, It's one pound Two pound, I beg your pardon See that's why, it's his wife Oh have you, Not that I know of, no What? Eh? Er one pound twenty Bloody hell I just get it settled then I'll give you the benefit of the doubt I've been trying that for me stomach since I've came back So you're saying sorry no, I've had er, I had to go to the doctors, carrying on, outside everything it's only there pal I miss You drop off when you're in it might rain tomorrow don't it? I said it looks like rain tomorrow Not bad You got fluoride in this, in this to clean you teeth? I, I think it's worse I would have thought the three, the first three, the first would of been three, right, but still, you know we want ironed out the creases Oh yes, right when, when you were next in, being a regular you're, say, a nominal What is it exactly then? What's this one then? That's eight stronger, can do a I'm not into strong ale Well it's not strong, strong Yeah, yeah I find strong ale very heavy Yeah ah, what, I, is that you? I mean it's all don't mind what you're drinking then No that'll do me I didn't have anything last Saturday you know what I mean? I er I bet you're all wondering what that is in the erm, I'm just not getting it unknown territory, you know what it's like with a van, don't you, and then yeah gotta get done Yeah I'm arguing with them, when I'm I give it a break for a couple of, well about three Sundays now Tell her I'm sorry, tell her I need my babe I'm a tell her, we've, we've I mean, a couple of them I like I remember a go, a go with some of them that I thought I could do, but realised I can't do, do you know what I mean? I, I, I was, about, what I, I do, I bought an Elvis Presley one er a Tom Jones one, that drinks one, you know, that I like, it's, it's well I like singing it, what I mean, I think what it is I'm looking for the old, I'm not being funny, I'm looking for the old voice I don't like me voice, I'm not liking it at all and I think that's what putting me off on taping it and listening to myself after, I don't, I like, I like to I shouldn't do it, I'm not gonna do it any more, I'm not gonna tape me own voice and listen to it I just not listening to me own voice Left a good job in the city, working for a man Yeah, quite smooth actually Yeah, yeah, I thought that Hiya, yeah Yeah, some of them I like, some of them I don't like, er nice number that, er nice number, you see like that song, like you've choose Well I can tell you that it's actually this one, it's not a and it is a good one well the phrase at the end, I'm just about get , but, Yeah get the phrase in the end, it's, what we've done is, at the end they go, they do a rolling, rolling down the river, rolling, rolling, down the river, rolling, rolling down the river and they, no, and they dropped rolling, rolling see what I mean? Oh yeah One, two and when you think, you think You want another one? Ooh I've got one another, it goes rolling on the river right yeah yeah no what I found very different, wrong with this I mean you're like me, you want profession, you don't just come out and throw it, like that, you see Oh we used to do one with erm the band, sometimes I'd get it right, others I wouldn't, but like you've just said they come come up after and say, ah, that bit late for I, but you did it for Yeah, yeah, like I come down the other week and I Yeah I'm getting it, I'm getting over it very, very, very slowly Here are, give us it back I'm not being rude now, I've just come back from the Gambia and I haven't stopped what you've just said now, and I'm gonna go now I don't know what the hell it is Oh well, I'll have to be careful, I don't know what er, what's, what happened I said, I said to them, oh I hope he don't think I'm but I said because you bring some guy, you'll lend me the room on a Sunday afternoons, up and down you know, put the whistle on, and then bring them up and that'll be me Yeah, I I like do the Tom and, I won't, Tom and Jerry, I might do the Tom Jones one, cos I, I feel comfortable at Which I don't You don't have to be beautiful Awfully sorry love, have to er dash off a bit Erm John and Jonathan sit down but when I I want you to read your essay about your home. Simon I want you to read about your home as well and as Martin is still giving out I think I'll have you Christopher please to read yours about monster, so I'll have the two monster ones first and then the two home ones. Right, just sit down for a minute and let's, Michael read his first. The monster from the marsh. I saw the monster arrive from the marsh he looked at the when I saw him I ran The monster from the marsh. When I was walking past the marsh one, one night, when I was on my way back from school I heard a rus rustling noise behind a bu bush, when I went up the, went up first to the bush a big dragon-like thing jumped out from behind the bush, it gave me such a fright I nearly fainted. I started to run up, straight up the hill, erm lucky the monster was running straight at me and sticking out of the crowd and he tripped over and after the end My home. My home is near the trees and I live there in, in my house there is I have lots of places in my and I have one one pigeon and a dog. My home is made of wood, and the roof is made of tin and the colour of it is grey. It has two doors, one, four windows, I, I don't have the garden or, oh, in my house there are six rooms and one of them is er, one, one of them is my, is my room and a picture and a my my, and room and er My home. I live in a tree so does my mum tree house, my mum and my dad and my brother and my dog and dad live there. Our house is made of wood and is dark green. We have four windows and four doors, we have got a there is a big hill in front of it and it is good, but if it, if the tree house because we find the, the trees and then and then we were, we play in the tree house sometimes with the dog. Inside our home we have a lot of furniture, we have four rooms, one in the bathroom, one in the bedroom and one in the lounge and one in the kitchen Right then. I like erm, Christopher and Simon yes I know, take your books and show right, erm, Jonathan here right John has written a story about his home right it's a good descriptive story on how people live until one day they couldn't think of any way that you could may improve it. My home. I live in a tree house, my mum and my dad and my brother and my dog and my sister. Our house is made of wood and is dark green, we have a four windows and four doors. It has got wooden roof. There is a big hill in front of it and it is good but erm because we climb the, the tree and climb it and we play in the tree house today with the dog. Inside our home we have a lot of furniture we have four rooms and one in the bathroom, one in the bedroom and one in and one in the lounge and one in the kitchen here Okay, right So if we cut out the one they might it might flow a bit more easily might it. That's good, it was alright apart from that you describe where John and are living well Yeah, I didn't see which sort of No, did he describe the house though? Yeah Yeah, I think his description of where he was living in the tree house was very clear I think he could improve it just a bit Jonathan and then it might flow a bit more evenly, might it then, right Michael bring yours out now please. Just a minute John, right Michael I want you to read yours through once more for me please. Do it about the monster Monster from the marsh. When I saw the monster from the marsh, one night, I was, I was, I was frightened, I, I, I, I was he looked liked a when I saw him I ran back to camp and I felt frightened, I hid under my sleeping bag the end Right, see Michael was describing that how he felt Yeah How did feel then? Frightened You think that he came out quite What Christine has said then do you think? Well you said he went under a sleeping bag Aha and just, I hid under my sleeping bag, er, then, I thought er the mon what would happen to the monster and so he might of stayed there on, you know, all, all night John Well he did say that the monster was rather large, he looked like a bird with some feathers plucked out What else could you bring in his bag? Anything else he could of put in the hat Liam? He vaguely saw the monster and then he ran back to the camp where he was camping, but he didn't describe Where, where Yeah, where So he could of put a little bit in about how he ran back Yeah and what he went through in, in that couldn't he? Yeah Right, the people who have not read an essay out yet, I want you to sit, just a minute Michael, next to somebody and I want you to read your essay to them and see what they think about it and how you could maybe improve it and I want Michael and John to go and show Steve your books as well now please, right boys do that now then, yes, could you take yours to show please Do we have to show both? Not sure it's still working. It's still working The thingy Is it recording us? Is it recording? Yeah My dad's got all this Sorry Steve, erm, that you're not going to read your essay and and that isn't essay, either work your book or, and get it er, yes, well it has to be up and when you've finished it you can then do a picture about your Right erm, can I start by asking you, can you tell me your full name please? Mary . And can you tell me your date of birth. say that. H where were you born? In Llaneilian. And erm who were your father and mother. Oh my my er my father came from Horley, Suffolk. Mm. And mother was bo was born in Llaneilian too. Yes. And er father came as a sexton from from Horley with a parson you see. And so Yes. mother was a er a the cook in the rectory so they got together you see, that's how they got . Oh I see. Why was it your father came came to Llaneilian? From Suffolk. Oh he my father came from Horley, Suffolk. Why why did he make the move? Oh well he came to Llaneilian to to be a sexton of the church . Oh I see. Yes. Yes. Erm was his father in the church as well? Oh no I don't know where father I don't know where his father was no . No. Do you know much about your mother's parents? Oh my mother my mother was brought up with her grandmother in Llaneilian. Oh I see. Yes. Yes. My father came from Horley, Suffolk with a parson you see. To Llaneilian to got to get it they got they got together and they got married and they had ten children. I in in in in the same place. Mother was brought up with her grandmother. I see. Yes. Why was that, was that Were her parents di Had her parents died? Oh no. No. No. No. She was just brought up with her grandparents. Yes. Yes. I see. Erm, whereabouts in Llaneilian did you live when you were young? Oh I lived with I was born in Llaneilian. Yes, whereabouts? Oh er er . Mm. Yes. Oh I see. Yes. And did your father remain er working in the church? Yes. Mother was a cook at the rectory Yes. and my father was the sexton of the church. Oh yeah. And my three brothers went after my br my father to be a sexton of a of a church. Oh. Grave-diggers and all that you know. Yes. Yes . Oh I see. Yes. Erm do you remember much about your father? Oh yes I remember Yes. father yes. Do you remember him working? Oh yes, he was a d gra the grave-digger. Yes. Mm. Of a church. I see. And er I he used he used he u used to take lunch he wouldn't he wouldn't take tea dinner he used to have like to have tea in a bottle. Oh did he. And er Cold? Cold tea? No warm. Warm tea. Yes. Mm. And er he er he used I used Mother used to send me with the tea to the to the church to the churchyard to father. Oh I see. And I put father all the time and I couldn't find him. There he was in the bottom of a grave. Oh yes. Did you yourself go to school in Llaneilian? Oh yes. Yes. Was it a little school there. Oh oh yes, a little school there yes. Mm. Do you remember your schooldays? Oh yes. Yes. What was it like? Oh it was alright. Yes? And how old were you when you left school? Oh I was I was very young. I was left school very young. I was left school about er eleven years old I was. Did you? Yeah. Did most people leave that young? Oh In those days? Pardon? Did most people leave school at that age? Oh yes. Mostly yes. In those days you could you know . Mm. Yes yes I see. Yeah. Wh what erm what was your first language when you were a child? Oh Welsh. Welsh you spoke? Yes, Did your father learn Welsh as well? Oh yes, father learnt Welsh. Although I see. he came from Horley, Suffolk, he learnt Welsh alright. Yes. Yes. I see. And So you only spoke Welsh at home? Did you? Oh yes yes. Yes. Just Welsh. Erm was Llaneilian a small place in those days? Oh yes very small but it's got very big now you know. Yes. Mm. It's it's f it's full of erm full or campers. You know campers . Mhm. Campers. with the with the with the campers coming like you know. Yes. Erm can you tell me some more about your father's job and what he did in his time . Oh well father came from Horley, Suffolk and he he went as a grave-digger Mm. to the old Llaneilian church. Yes. And er w he used to work between er you know, do do do odd jobs, Mm. between like ten Yes. and er he he used to ring the bell and he used to clean he had to clean the church and all the rest of it you know. Yes . Oh yes. Yes. Was a lot of hard work he did? Pardon? did he work very hard? Oh yes. Mm. Grave-digging grave-digging was very hard in those days . Yes. Yeah. Would he be the only person digging the graves? Pardon? Would he be the only one doing that job? Oh yes. So he'd have to dig the grave by himself . Yes. Yes. That's a lot of work. Yes. Erm what was were his wages very low? Pardon? Did he only get a small amount of money? Oh yes very small, yes. Did your did you have trouble living on the amount of money he earned ? Oh yes, mother mother had to work hard Mm. you see she used to erm she used to take er six dressed chickens to the mansion place in Lla in er . To an old lady. And er she had to pluck them and everything, clean them ready to put in the oven you know. Mm. I remember. And we had to run to take these chickens Oh I see. Why was that? Where would where would the chickens come from? Oh mother used to go and from different farms you know. Oh I see. And she used to clean them kill them and clean them and Mm. to be put in the oven. So would that be to add a little bit more money? Oh yes yes yes . I see. Erm what kind of food would you eat? In those days? Oh th We used to have a i don't know whether you used to eat it we used to have a erm er turnips and p and er and er made a have a basin full of buttermilk and and potatoes mixed together you know. Oh yes. They were very good you know. Yes. Yes. Would you have that often? Oh yes. Mhm. We used to we used to we used to erm have a lot a big lot of buttermilk. Mm. We had three cows. And mother used to You had three cows? milk them and make erm make the buttermilk and we used to have buttermilk and potatoes in a basin mixed up and Oh I see. pepper and salt in them. Yes. Did you live in a farm? Pardon? Did you live in a farm or a church house? No. A church house? little cottage you know. Was it Did it belong to the church? Yes. Yes. Father father was the sex The bell-ringer's house. Er? It was the bell-ringer's house then ? Yeah. And er he used to be he he mother used to make make some tea for him and warm tea in a bottle in a glass bottle you know. And he he didn't li he didn't like milk, he liked Mhm. And so I was the one that used to take this lunch to father . Mm. And er I went to look for him once and I couldn't f Couldn't find him anywhere. And I shouted, Father, father. No sign of him. And there he was, I went to look and I saw at the end there, a big pile of erm earth fresh earth you know. So I went there and there he was, father was in the bottom of a grave. Did you have to pay rent for the house? Pardon? Did you have to pay rent? For the house? Did you have to pay rent? Oh yes. To the church? Yeah. Yes. Was that in the wages? Pardon? Did the church pay your father? Oh yes. What kind of a house was it? Was it a very small house? Only two only two rooms. Two rooms? Two rooms. Oh. And how many lived in all of you lived in one house ? Oh we didn't all live together. You know. But mother brought up ten of us up and mother was brought up with he grandmother. Mm. In the little cottage you see. Mm. And erm so she used And then sh I used to take lunch for father and I couldn't find him. Shouted, Father, father. Couldn't find him. And there I went a bit I once saw a big pile of soil at the back you know. Mm. So I went towards this soil and there was father in the bottom of a grave. Oh dear. Er how did you manage living in such a small house? Well we didn't we didn't all live together like you know Mhm. some of us had gone over the border you know. So if it was just two rooms you had, Yes. erm were they both used for sleeping in at night? Oh yes. And then one would be used erm as in the daytime as a sitting room or Oh no we'd no sitting room. No. What were they u What did you do in the daytime then? Oh we used to er we used we used to at sc we used to be at school until we were eleven years old. Mm. And then we er we left school and then we went to work for to w we went to look for work. I see. Erm what How did you used to spend your time When you were at school but in your spare time. Oh. When you weren't at school. W oh we used to we used to go out gather firewood and we used to Mm. Borrow the er er bits of coal you know from the Mm. . Yes. Yes. What would you do with them then? Oh we used to lay fire. I see. Yes. Mm. Erm were most people in those days poor? Oh yes very poor, yes. Mm. They were very very poor. Of course it's got better now you know. Mm. Yes. Did most people erm have a few animals, keep a few animals? Oh yes, mostly yes. Mm. So you did you just have cows or did you have any other animals? Oh no. Just the cows. No. Mother used to er the cow used to calf and she used to mother used used to bring the little calf up you know. Mm. Yes. Mm. Did you used to have to milk the cows? Oh yes. Did you do that? Yeah. Mm. Erm do you think you were quite happy as a child? Oh yes, quite happy. Mm. Yes. We how would your would your mother be busy all the time? Oh yes mother was very busy. She used to with the with these confinement cases you know. With the with the mothers who used to have er used to have babies you know. Mm. And mother used to attend to them with a doctor like you know. Oh. And she used to do that work. So she worked almost as a nurse? Oh yes . Like a nurse. Yes yes. She wasn't qualified was she? Oh no. No. But she knew it alright, you know. Mm. So she helped Did she help with the childbirth as well? Pardon? Did she have midwife there, like a midwife? Oh yeah yes. Yes. Yeah. helped Yeah. with the children Yeah. Was erm would she get paid for that? Oh yes. Yes? Yes. So just just occasionally would that Yes that's right, yes yes. Mm. Erm how did she know how to do that? Well I I tell you how she she she picked it up . She was brought up with her grandmother Mm. you see? Yeah. And but her her her grandmother used to go used to go and so she used to take my mother with you see. So that's how she got it. So her grandmother was a midwife? Yes, she was yes yes. I see, yes. And that was learnt just by practice then really wasn't it? Just from watching . Yes that's right. Yes, yes, yes. Yeah. Yeah I see. Was that erm would she go all around the island or would she just go round Llaneilian area? Oh no you used to used to go to different to different to dig graves in different churches where there was no man to be out to dig a grave Oh. you know. Oh yes. Yes. Mm. How far away would that be that he might go? Pardon? How far might he have to travel to dig a grave? Oh not well sometimes very very very long way. But mostly he was at home in the old church you know. Yes. And different churches round, they used to send for him when there was nobody there. Mhm. To have the grave digging there. Yes. Yes. I see. Erm so he would he would have to dig the graves. And would he have to keep the churchyard? Well m mother used to clean for the church clean Yes. and er filled up the lamps and all that you know. Oh I see . And father used to dig the graves. And my three brothers went after father Mm. er finished to dig the graves. I see. Yeah. Yes. So erm w if Had he been doing digging graves when he was in Suffolk? Pardon? Had he been doing the same job when he was in Suffolk ? Oh no. No. No. No. No. No? No. No. No. Oh. Had he been u unable to get work in Suffolk? Oh I don't know, I couldn't tell you. No . Or don't you know? Mm. Erm He ca he came with the he came with excuse me he he came with a rector Mm. from Suffolk. And he ca he got a job in the old church Llaneilian church to do this job the gal grave digging you know. Mm. And my three brothers went after it. Mm. Yes. Was was the rector English? Pardon? Was the rector English? Yes. Could he speak Welsh? Yes. Mm. And father and father was English. Mm. And father learnt the Welsh you know. Mm. A Can you tell me Sorry. What age was your father when he came here. How old was he? Oh he was very young Was he? He came with with a rector to Llaneilian church. Mm. And after after he came and settled, my three brothers went and dig dig the graves in the old Llaneilian church you know . Yes. And when they were when they were out of er of er anybody to dig the graves They used to send for father. Father used to and do the grave. Mm. Yeah. Did he ring the bells in other churches? Pardon? Did he ring the bells in other churches? Oh yes. At weddings as well Yes. Yes. And funerals. Would he be the only person ringing the bells? Oh no there was a there was another man but he was a but queer like you know he was alright but he used to ring the bell and Did you hear the bell ringing on Sunday? And so I said, Yes. And it was him that was ringing the bell you know. Yes. Oh it were all camp. Was there only one bell? Pardon? Was there only one bell? No there were three there were three bells in the belfry. Yes. Mm. And how many men did it need to ring the bells? Only one. Only one. Mm. So he'd ring the bells in other churches as well? Oh. Oh yes. Yes. Yes. So how would he travel from church to church? Oh walk. He'd walk? Oh yes. Oh I see. It would take him a long time then wouldn't it? Oh yes. they didn't he didn't drink he didn't he didn't dig the graves all a in one in one in one day like you know. No. He used to for different days for grave digging Oh yeah. there. Mm. Yes. Why How did your brothers manage to do the same job as he did? Well I I suppose they were they were going around with him you know in the to do the grave and then they got . They used to b to do brickwork in the grave. You know. To Oh. to to with bricks. Oh I see. Mm. Was that just sometimes he'd do that? Oh yes. Yes. Something spec for sp for special reasons . Yes. And where did he get the bricks from? Pardon? Where did he get the bricks from? Oh I suppose they were they used to make them with with with with soil in those days you know. With soil? Some soil yes and cement you know. Ah. Cement them together and then leave them to dry and them er left them to dry until the till they they get dried you see. Yeah. So h would he do that as well or would He'd do that. Oh yes. Yes yes yes. Oh I see. I don't what mother used to mother used to take s chickens. She used to take dressed chickens six every Tuesday. Every Tuesday ? To to a place. we used to call it. And she used to dress them and they was ready to put in the oven and with these chickens . So you'd have to deliver them? Pardon? To deliver them. You had to deliver them ? Oh yes, I was at home yes. What was that every Tuesday? Well er well she used two Tuesday and Thursday and Saturday. She used two the the this lady that took had the chickens and ready to put in the oven there. And we used to her home in the Wintertime Yes. So she she did that and she did she was a midwife sometimes as well. Oh yes. Yes yes. So that all helped with the money did it ? Oh yes. yes. Yes. Erm did you used to have new clothes ever? Pardon? Did you ever have new clothes, when you were young? Oh not very few. Mm. Erm what about birthdays, did you have anything special on birthdays ? Oh I tell you what we used to have a dresser like this in front of of of a of a h of a of a at home and er mother used to make a a jelly and she used to put it underneath the dresser and put a plate on on top of it in case the mice would get it. I see. Yes. Mm. Did you used to have erm grow vegetables yourself? Oh yes. Yes. In the garden you know. Would your father do that or would Oh yes, no he'd do that yes. Mhm. I remember the once we used to e he used to catch er blackbirds. Catch them? He used to catch blackbirds. He used to put a in front in the front and put the and put some string in the and put plums in it. And Yeah. when when the when the blackbird would go in, he'd pull the string. Oh I see. And and caught them. And he he used to cook them and do you know we we used to pluck them and we used to roast them by the fire in a Did you? Yes. What did it taste like? Oh Pardon? What did it taste like? Oh lovely. Was it? Yes. What would you eat that with? Oh potato and gra made some gravy. And Mm. slice of bacon you know. Mm. Did Would many people eat birds like that ? Oh yeah. No not many, only father did. But er not many people would would er do that you know. Mhm. We had a little garden in the front and we used to put er a in in in the in in on the soil and we used to put some crumbs on on a on a plate you know. Mm. And then the birds would go and pick the the the Yes. the crumbs there. So when they they we used to pull the pull the pull the pull the bread the the line Mm. And c and caught them. And do you know we used to pluck them and we used to fry em er fr and fry them in front of the fire. Would you roast them? Yes. Yes. And how many birds would you catch to eat a meal? Oh . We we used to have lots, they used to go my father used to put er a a bird a bird trap er bird second time to catch and we used to pluck them and and them and roast by the fire you know . Yes. So erm would you have that often? Would you eat blackbirds often? Well it just depended it was snowy. Yes. Yeah. Because erm was that when there was other food was short? Oh yes. Yeah. Yes. Mm. Did you catch rabbits? Oh father was a great rabbit catcher, yes. Did he keep ferrets? Pardon? Did he keep ferrets. Yes. Oh I was afra To catch them with. I was afraid of the ferrets. We had to hold them and father put them H where would he keep his ferrets? Oh, in a box. In a box? Yes. In the house? No, in the shed. Yes and how many did he have? Oh just depends er sometimes he'd they they brought them little you see so they were father would separate the the big ones from the little ones and Mm. Yes. Dear me. What other what other wild animals and birds would you would you eat? Oh Did you have pigeons? No. No. We do we didn't keep any anything else only only ferrets. Fa father used to breed the ferrets you know. He used to breed them? And then he used to catch rabbits with them you know. Mm. Did he have to poach to get the rabbit? Pardon? Did he have to poach to get the rabbits? No. No? He was allowed on the land then ? Yes. Mm. What about pheasants? Did he catch pheasants? Pardon? Did he catch pheasants? Oh no. No. He'd have to have a licence to have pheasants. But he didn't poach? Eh? Did he poach to get the Yes. pheasants? Yes. Th they used he used to er hunting with the with the with the with the with the with the with the people that used to go hunting. With the people you know. Oh right. From the mansion. And and er father used to go er a beater with a big stick to beat the he Yeah. And do you know father used to now where they used to and he used to go and caught a lot of them . And them. in the place where they used to be. Mm. Yeah. Yes. Oh poor old father. When he went out beating them, beating the pheasants out of the bushes, Yes. would he get paid for that? Oh yes. Yeah. He they were er they were er they were hired. With with the mansion men you see. Yes. Cos he had a big stick like this and beating the woods you know. Yes. Yes. Do you remember the hunts? Do you remember them when you they used to come and hunt? No I don't I don't remember no. No . You don't remember? No. Erm did he go fishing much your father? No father never went fishing. Never. no. Oh. But my brothers . Yes. Would they catch much fish? Oh yes. Mm. What what else would you eat when you were young? Oh rabbits. Rabbits. Mm. Yes and fish. Mm. And er birds we used to we used to we used to father used to caught pheasants occasionally. Mm. Would you ever have erm any other meat? would you have lamb or beef ever? Oh yes we used to have it yes. Yes. Just was that often? Or just a a few times. On no well we only used to have a nearly every week you know. Mm. And what vegetables would you have in the garden. Oh we we we we used to have er suede and er carrots. Mm. And er turnips. Father used to he was a great gardener. He used to put everything in the garden. And I tell you what he used to do. He we used he used to put a in the little front garden like you know. Mm. And what he used to do in this , he had a string in the and er he could the string put some some er crumbs in the in the er in a and the birds go in and he used to he used to catch them and we used to kill them and pluck them you know. Oh . Which birds were they? Blackbirds. Any other birds? No. Just blackbirds. They were lovely too. Mm. Did you used to go to Sunday School? Pardon? Did you go to Sunday School? Oh yes. Sometimes church until school time. Yeah. Yes. Mm. Ho wold were your were your brothers and sisters all older than you? Pardon? Were your brothers and sisters older than you? Oh yes there were some older than me yes. And some younger? Yeah. Yes. Mm. Did they all leave school young, all of you? Oh yes. We had to go to school for we were young. From what age did you start school? Oh about er about five. Mm. And you left about eleven? Yes. Mm. What did you do when you left school? Oh I went to service Did you? Yes. Where did you go into service? Oh I went to to a place and er there was a staff of maids there you know. Mm. Where was that one? Where was it? What was it called? Oh Yes. What was the name of the house? . Mm. And and er so I So I er we used to catch these blackbirds and them in a and pull the string and they used er try and catch them and we used to we used to kill them and and pluck them Roast them. and roast them. What did you do in Right. Do you remember your first day at work? Oh yes. Quite Yes? well. What happened, what was it like? Well er I went when I was when I went first went and do you know I went into the to the place and do you know I run away from the place. I went to. Was that on your first day? Yes. Did you get sent back again. Oh yes. Mother mother b mother brought me back by the the by my by my hair. Was Were you just eleven then? You were still eleven. Oh yes I was just eleven yes. Yes. How far away from your home was ? Oh it was a big way.. Did you have to walk there. Yeah. Oh yes. Would you stay there in the I didn't stay I went You we you didn't like it at first? No. Oh no. No. Did you have to live at ? Eh? Did you have to live at ? Sleep there? Did you have to sleep in ? Oh yes yes. Was that, all the week you stayed ? Yeah. yes. Yes. What was it like when you were when you were young starting work at that age? Well I used I used to be in the kitchen you know. Mm. And they used to catch pheasants and er I had to clean I had to pluck these pheasants and er birds and get them ready and ready for them to put in the oven. Yes. In this mansion place you know. Yes so you were a scullery maid were you? Pardon? You were a scullery maid when you started ? Yes that's right yes yes. I see. And what else would you do besides the pheasants? Oh I used to well the used to catch rabbits you know. Mm. And I used to kill er c er clean them. Mm. And I used to get them ready for them to put in the oven or fry it. And I sometimes I used to fry them first. And in the oven and er put some in the oven and put some gravy on and they were lovely now. Were they? Yeah. Erm would you have to do a lot of cleaning work as well in the kitchens? Oh no. You wouldn't? No. No. You were doing the food No. were you? No no no. Would you spend all your time preparing food? Oh yes mostly . Yes. Vegetables and you know Yes. and birds. How many people worked in the kitchen? Oh there were there were there were cook and cook waitress and cook general and waitress oh I don't know how many they were. Were there a lot of other servants as well? Oh yes in the in the big rooms You know. We were in the back place you see. Yes. Where would you sleep? Would you sleep in Oh sleep in sleep in the mansion place. Whereabo would you be upstairs in the attics or Oh no, in the attic. In the attic? Yes. How many people what kind of number of servants stayed in the house? Oh About twenty or Pardon? About twenty or would you say more ? Oh yes. About twenty? Something like that yes. Mm. Who who was the master of the house? Oh he he was the he was the Sir Thomas . ? Yes. I see. Mm. Did you used to see erm the master of the house ever? Oh yes very very often see him. Mm. He was a nice gentleman. Top hat. Mm. And a walking stick. Yes. Would you erm be afraid of of him? No. You wouldn't? No. No he was very nice. Mm. He was a proper gentleman. What about the lady? Pardon? What about the lady of the house? Oh she was there too. Was she nice? Yes very nice. And what did you think of the clothes? Pardon? What did you think of the clothes? Oh beautiful. Do you remember what kind they were? Oh they were beautiful things. Er satin blue and satin green you know. Mm And er and and the hats with with the bow with a bow on it . Were you Did you wish you had clothes like that when you were young? Oh aye you know. Did you? Yes. Did you used to have to wear a uniform? Oh yes. You did? What was it like? Oh very nice. I used to I used to er wear print and white apron in the in the morning. And in the afternoon i used to wear erm a blue and er and er blue oh I forgot. And a big bow Mm. Would you serve food as well at the table? Oh yes. You served the food as well? Yes. Yes. I see. Did they often have big parties? Oh yes, they had parties galore. Did they? Yes. Erm would they have lots of important people coming to dinner Oh yes. Mm. Yes. Did you look forward to occasions like that? Oh yes I did. You did? Weren't weren't you afraid you'd do something wrong? Oh no. No. No. Oh. Erm were they the master and mistress of the house, in the house all year? Oh yes they were there all all the year round they were they were there. Yes. Mm. They wouldn't go away much? No no. Mm. Would they have people guests to stay? Oh yes. They would? Yes. Erm They were they were people in those days too you know. Good people you know. Mm. I remember the one one of the ladies, er she was dressed in erm in green and she had a big bow . Big you know. Mm. And a big hat and she had a big bow she looked you know . Yes. Can you tell me about erm a typical days work that you would have to do. Can you remember what you'd have to do? Oh w when I first went to to place I I had to er I had to clean er clean I had to I was like a scullery maid. And I used to clean birds, poultry you know pheasants and things like that. And I used to and ready to put in the oven. Dressed up and I used to take them and I used to leave them in the kitchen and the the head kitchen maid er the head kitchen maid w went and took them in. Mm. ready to put in the oven see. Yes. Erm what time in the morning would you have to get up? Oh now then. That's a hard one. Was it very early? Oh yes. Yes. We used to get up seven o'clock in the morning you know. Mm. Would you as All the servants would you eat together yourselves? Oh yes. Yes. Where would you eat, in the kitchen? Yes in the kitchen yes. Mm. And would you eat leftovers from from the from the mai the master's food? Or would you have erm a s a different meal altogether? Oh no we had we had fresh meals for for ourselves and they had different meals for the for the gentlemen as well you know . Yeah. Yes. we could see it all set in the in the kitchen ready to put in the oven you know. Mm Yes. Would you be allowed to eat anything belonging to the the gentlemen's food and any any of his food . Oh er er leftover sort of thing? Yes. Oh no no. You wouldn't? No. No? No. Was there a big difference between your meals and his meals? No. No? We all ate the same. Mhm. Yes. So you'd have quite nice food. Oh yes. Yes. Erm did you once you settled down working there, did you like it? oh yes I liked it. Yes. I had to or all I could go somewhere else. Mhm. How often would you go home? Oh not very often. Mhm. No. Did you look forward to going home sometimes? Oh yes. Yes. I I I I went to to a place first and er I and I I went home you know, without them knowing. mother took me back by the hair Mhm. By my hair. Did did they know you'd gone home? Pardon? Did they know that you went? No. No? What did your mother say then, was she cross with you? No she said, Oh, she said, What do you want? So I says, I I don't like there I want to go I want to come back. So she said, Look here my dear girl, she said, you go back and tell the lady that you Do you remember how much they paid you? Pardon? Do you remember how much they paid you? Per quarter. Oh paid very little. Very little they paid. Did you manage to save any money? Oh yes. You did? What what were the other servants in the house like? Pardon? What were the other servants in the house like? Oh they were very nice they were gentle you know. Yes. Yes. Did you all get on quite well together? Oh yes. Yes. Mm. So you were quite friendly with them. Yes. Mm. Do you remember any any unhappy times when you were working there? No no not for not for for my remembrance like you know. No. No. Do you think the wo the work was very hard for you? Oh I think the work the work was very hard in those days you know. Mm. Did you ever think it was unfair that you had to work so hard for so little money? Oh no. You didn't think that? We had to. There was nothing else for us you know. Yes. You didn't you didn't think it was wrong? No. No. No. Would you carry on going to church? Pardon? Did you used to go to church Oh yes I used to g I used to go to church regularly every Sunday. Mm. Did you go to Llaneilian Church from ? On no. I was in I wasn't in Llaneilian in those days then er it was far for me to go from Llaneilian you know. Mm. So you went to Church? No Llaneilian Church. Oh Llaneilian. Yes. How long did you stay in ? Oh I was there about a good bit. How old were you when you finished there? Oh I was and er let me see eleven, twelve, thirteen about fourteen years. Were you? When I when I left. Mm. What made you leave? Well I don't know. I was tired of it I suppose you know. Where you doing a different job when you left? Oh yes. What were you doing when you left. Bef before you left was your job? Oh before I I was er I used to be a kitchen maid. Mhm. And er they used to catch er pheasants and er what else, the pheasants and Poultry. And they used to they used to I had to I had to pluck them and clean them ready to put in the oven.. So you started off doing kitchen maid work. Yeah. W after fourteen years, before you left what were you doing then? Oh. you left when you were fourteen years old yeah? Pardon? You left when you were fourteen years old? Yes. And what did you do then? Well I went I went to to to a to a er to a er to Sir Thomas then after and er Where was he? Eh? Where was he? Oh he was at And when did you leave ? Oh I lived in Llaneilian. Yeah wh after where did you go? Pardon? After you finished at where did you go? Oh I no I don't remember where did I go . How many years did you work at ? Oh I w I went there as a young girl. And then er I used to er be in the kitchen. And I used to to dress er rabbits Mm. and er poultry you know. Ready to put in the oven there. Yes. And oh what were oh I went to I went to service then. Mm. After that. Oh I see. Yes. So where were you doing the working as a kitchen maid? In Yes. So after that where did you go into service after that? Oh I went to to some friends of mine. I I was very nice place to. Where was that, in in Llaneilian? In Llaneilian yes. I see. How old were you when you went there? When I went to Llaneilian? Yes. Oh I wasn't very old. I was er twelve or thirteen years old I was there . Mm. I see. And what were you doing then when you went back to Llaneilian? What was your job then. In s in service? Oh domestic service. I see. Was it a small house you worked for? Oh no it was a big house. Oh yes. Who o who owned the house? Oh er the daughter and the other son of . Oh I see. Yes. So erm what were you doing there then? What what were you Oh I I would I would be the kitchen maid. I see. Yes. So you're doing a similar job as you were doing in . Yes that's right. Yes. I see. But did you prefer being in Llaneilian as it was near home? Oh yes I used to I used to play a lot when I left the the the these places you know . Yes. Well you were only a child really when you went there That's right. Yes. Mm. So erm did you used to sleep in in Llaneilian ? Yeah. Oh yes. Yes. So it but it was easier for you to go home if you wanted to I suppose. Oh I afternoon off, you know. Did you? Yes. Mhm. And what would you do on your afternoon off? Oh I would go and see some friends of mine. Mm. I see. Erm did you work in the kitchen doing a different job than you were doing ? Oh no. Only in the kitchen. Yes. So were you doing the same kind of work then? Again? Yes. Yes. Did you prefer working in a smaller household? Oh no I f I preferred er be in a big house you know. Yes. Did you erm find the work the sam as as easy or more difficult in in Llaneilian? Oh I I was alright but I didn't feel er tired at it all you know. Mm. But I got with that some some time . Did you was it you who chose to go and work in Llaneilian or did they send you to work there from ? Oh no We had to look for work. You had to? Yes. Erm how many staff were there working in the house in Llaneilian? Do you remember? Oh I don't remember how many how many staffs were there. No. And I couldn't tell you. And what were the the master and mistress of the house like? Oh they were champion. Were they nice? Yeah. Mm. Would you have to erm did they used to have dinner parties as well there? Oh they had they had big house parties you know. Yes. What was the name of that house then? Oh. And what about the other house in Llaneilian? What Oh. what was that house called? Yes. And what were the the master and mistress like there ? Oh they were champion. Were they? Mm. I was there for twenty years. Twenty years? Yes. Oh long time. Yes. And would you just would you do they food all the time that you were there for twenty years? Oh yes. I got sick and tired of it you know. Did you? Mm. Did you used to have wait at table as well? Oh yes. You did? I had to I had to lay the table and they had to be laid spick and span you know. Yes. Mm. Everything had to be it you know. Yes. What would happen if it wasn't quite right? Oh well they wouldn't say anything. Wouldn't they? No. Did you get more money there? Oh no. Didn't get much more? No. No. Oh. Erm how did when when the first world war came do you remember that? No not very well. No? No. Erm d do you remember much about the time after the first world war? Oh yes. You remember the twenties ? Yes. Erm do you remember a lot of poverty in in the nineteen thirties, early Do you remember much poverty and times like that? Oh yes. Do you remember Yes. do you kno did you know a lot of people who had trouble with money? Oh yes. Yes. Erm what did what did your other brothers and sisters do when they when they left school? Oh they they had to go to service. They all went and had to go to service ? Yes. Yes. Mm. Would you see them much when you'd gone to work? Yes I'd see them every week. Would you? Yes. Would you all go home on the same day? Oh yes. Oh I see. Erm what else do you remember as as different about those days and and nowadays ? Oh yes. Oh yes. And it is nowadays. What what do you remember specially a about those days that was different? Oh yes. Anything particular? Oh of course I remember a lot. I remember father he was a grave- digger and er he used we I used to take er er milk tea and milk and sugar you know, in a glass bottle for him. He wouldn't he wouldn't he wouldn't he wouldn't he wouldn't want milk, he'd only want tea. So I went and I used to take it in a bottle for him. And I used to take it down to the grave yard. And I couldn't find him once and I shouted, Father, father. No sound of father anywhere. But er where he was he was in the in the bottom of a grave digging a grave . Oh dear me yes. How old was your father when he had when he stopped working? Oh he was seventy. Was he? Yes. That's old. Yes. Erm Why did he work for so long? Well that was his work you see. Digging the graves. Yes. Mm. Did he used to get very tired at his work? No. No? He didn't get tired. Did he have any erm money when he finished work? How did he live then? Oh he he he he he he he had he had kept some money backward you see. Oh yes . and he he put them in the in the bank and when he finished, when he was he used to go for the money for for for some money Oh. from the bank you see. I see. Yeah. Mm. When he stopped working, did he have to leave the church house? No. Who was the new bell-ringer then? Eh? Who was the new bell-ringer? Oh fat father kept the my brother my three brothers went after him. So they lived in the house Yes. with your mother and father ? Yes. Yes. S and they were paid by the church? Yes. So they had to share one wage between three of them ? Yes. That's right, yes. Mm. Would your mother erm How old was your mother when your father retired? Was she still living then? When your father stopped working, Yes? was you mother still alive then? Oh yes. Yes? Yes. Erm h was she the same age as he was or y or younger or How old was your mother? Was she younger than your father. Oh yes yes younger than father. A lot younger? Or Good bit yes. Mm. What what was her name do you remember, before she got married? Oh no. You don't know it? No. No. No. What was her first name? Mary. Mary. Mm. I see, Mary . Mm. Erm what were you doing after you finished working? You said you worked for twenty years about, Yes. in the house in Llaneilian. Yes. Yes. Why did you stop working there after twenty years? Oh well er I got tired of it you know so I went and got another place. You just wa wanted And And I a change then was that it? Eh? You just wanted to have a change? Yes that's right yes. Mhm. So w where did you go then? Oh I didn't go r er ve very very much far I took I went and old lady and er looked after her. Wh Was that in Llaneilian then ? Yes. Yes. Was it easy to find work? Pardon? Was it easy to find another job ? Oh yes well quite easy for finding work yes. So did you find the job before you left the old place? Oh no. No. You left No. first. Mm. Where the old lady lived what was the house called? Er what? Where the old lady lived where what was the house called ? Oh. Do you know it? Yes. Well It rings a bell. but yes. Mm. And so you looked after her as a housekeeper did you? Yes mostly yes. Yes. After father after father died. Oh I see. Yes. Did you like having a change of job. No I don't think so? No you didn't like it ? No. No. Oh. Were you working for her when when the second world war came? No. You weren't? No. Were were you working then? Er I was I used to work with a to an old lady and she passed off. Mm. So I was left on the on the on the on the verge. So I had to find a place. And where did you Did you find another place? Yes. Where was that? In Llaneilian. Llaneilian again? place. A big place? Which place was that? . mm. Was it nice there? Oh yes, lovely. Mm. It had twenty rooms in it. Twenty rooms? Yes. How many people worked there? Only only me. Only you? Yes. Oh dear. Did you used to have all all the cleaning to do as well then? Oh yes. Cleaning Oh. silver and brasses. Mm. Must have been a lot of work for you . Yes. Mm. How many years were you working there? I was there for twenty years. Twenty years there as well? Yes. So you were twenty years at the first place as well? Yes. I see. Oh I see. Erm do you remember the second world war? No not very well. No. No. No. It didn't affect your life much? No. Were you living in the s in the h house with the old lady? Oh yes. You lived in? Yes. I see. And I was looking after her father. After her father? Yes. What was her name? . ? Pardon? ? I see. Erm did you used to go home then at all? to your own home? Oh no, I used to I used to go home occasionally like you know. Mhm. Yes. Yes. Erm were were your brothers and sisters all living in Llaneilian at that time ? Oh yes we were all living there yes. You all were? Yes. Yes. What happened to the house where your father and mother lived? Did you live there again at any time? On no. I didn't. You didn't live there. The they left it you know. Mm. Oh did they? Where did they go to? Oh they w they went to a little cottage in Llaneilian. Did they? Yes. Did they buy that? No they didn't buy they they they er they erm Rent it. They rent it. Who did they rent it from a farmer or something? No er the the people that owned it you know. I see. Mm. What was the house called? Pardon? What was the cottage called? . And why did they leave the church house? Pardon? Why did they leave the church house? Oh I don't know. And did you brothers stay on in the little cottage? Yes. What was the the cottage called? The cottage where my mother and father lived was . What was the church house called? Oh there wasn't a Oh er . Was the name of the the church house. Mhm. Erm did your brothers stay at ? Pardon? Did your brothers stay at Well Yeah. Yeah. So your father moved to to retire. Yeah. Mm Did he have any animals there? Pardon? Did he keep any animals at ? We kept two cows. In ? Yes. And er they used to the cows used to calf you know Mm. and we used to bring the calf up. And then we used to milk the calf. Mhm. Oh . Where di when after you worked erm for the old lady and her father, where did you go to then? Were you working after that or did you stop working then? No I didn't I didn't go I stopped working. You stopped working then ? Yeah. Mm. And where were you living after that? I think I went to my sister's to one of my sisters. When you erm look back on it now, do you wish you'd had more education at all when you were younger? Oh no I was a proper dunce. Er erm about the it doesn't matter about my voice you see there. Erm about working in the office of the Brothers in Porthmadog. Well Brothers were very early early organized er slate merchants in Porthmadog. Started by my uncle by marriage, Jonathan of , and his brother Richard of . And as I understand it they came down from somewhere er near they obviously were involved in the slate business and then they or organized their own firm Brothers and I believe it was about seventeen er eighty nine, maybe earlier. And their of first office as I recall as a little boy, was on the q quay as we used to say in Porthmadog . Yeah. Now whether it was n near grave's quay or wherever it was, they had a a quay there and of course they had a quay in . Yes. Er where the used to bring the slates down from Yes. Festinniog and those who went by by train would be transferred to the quay in . Yeah. Those going by sea of course came right down to the quay in in Porthmadog . Yeah. Would the offices be on the side of where Yes. Yes. Hill, Hill that would be I think it'd be in that direction. Yes. Fine. If if we were walking down there now I think I could probably give you the er exact place where it was because I've got a young memory of going in there, we used to er walk around the the you see. Er er shall I go on now? Yes, yeah. Well I suppose I should introduce myself. Er since I'm experting on my very early youth. My name is Aled Pierce and I was born in the on November the eighth nineteen ten. And er my mother Janet Hughes was a s sister to Mrs Jonathan . And Jonathan was justice of the peace and quite a leader in ar area. After my father's death in twenty three, he was executive of the estate and my guardian. Co-guardian with my mother. So I have close contact with the family from from my childhood. And anyway erm I first went to and the money ran out and so Grammar School, and then er I was transferred to PorthMadog County School where er Jonathan at that time was chairman of the board of governors. And after some slight difficulty I wasn't a very good student, er I finished early before There was no chance of my passing matric anyway. It would have been a w waste of time. So I became er an office boy at Brothers. By this time they had purchased a building which had been I think a a bank or a savings bank or something at Street in Porthmadog. And that's where I served as an office boy, kind of a a latter day Bob Cratchitt. How old were you then? Well I was between sixteen and seventeen because I think I started r er working there in the mid Summer or or m early Spring of twenty seven, and worked there through that period, all through nineteen twenty eight, then I emigrated to the United States in nineteen twenty nine. So I was between say sixteen and seventeen and erm Brothers er by this time of course, Mr Richard was dead. And his son in law O J , had become one of the partners and my cousin was one of the partners, but old Jonathan was still the senior partner. The rest of the staff was W old W J , who had been who had worked in the central Post Office I think in London, very well trained in in er office management and so on so on. And then your cousin er Margaret . . And then er James was a doctor of Captain James and er a daughter of Captain James . She had another sister by name of Nellie, went to school with me in in Porthmadog and another one older, I've forgotten what her name was. But we were the staff and er er my uncle Jonathan was a very victorian in every way. I think he was er at one time, head of the er Calvinistic Methodist Church and he was a great chapel goer. And a very strict man and er his word was law. Now and Robert were in the front room sharing a room, and uncle Jonathan had his own room upstairs and there was a little bathroom up there. And then we were down below and er there was erm a table with some antique typewriters on it. And then we had the desks, sloped desks so that these huge big er Ledgers? ledgers that are now on the archives could be l placed down there and fascinated me because he could add a column of pounds, shillings and pence, he'd take his three fingers at the bottom of the long ledger column, and as fast practically like a computer, would add to the top and then put it in pencil. And then And never made a mistake of course, he tried to teach me but it was just a waste of time. But anyway I did have to do some of them. But my basic job would be kind of a dogsbody for everybody. I had to keep the fire going for example and I had to go and get er some e Eccles cakes for Uncle Jonathan for his tea. And the telephone number I remember to this day, was Porthmadog so that shows it was at least probably the telephone to to go into being in Porthmadog. He didn't like using the telephone. But er Uncle Jonathan only used the telephone if if absolutely essential. And necessary. H he thought that er it was very imperative for orderly behaviour and for a well organized and to put things in writing. And as a matter of some real interest, he would have a copy made and for example say that er I was a messenger boy among other things, he would er give me a a written hand written And he wrote beautifully. A hand written note to go to say, er er Lloyd George in George's offices. And William George of course was still practising at that time. Down the road. And and er say send something to William George, or something involving the magistrates cos he was chairman of the of the er of the er The bench. bench. And he would then call f ring three times I think maybe it was four times, and it was my my job to then run upstairs and I mean fast, you didn't dawdle. And, Yes sir? And he would say, Go on Aled Mr William George . And he'd have written a thing I'm just using William George as an example of course. Yes. Yeah. And he said, Here's the note. And then he would fold it very carefully and put it in an envelope and then slit the flap he'd he'd not seal the envelope. And he said, Now, he said, Why do I do this? Well I had no idea of course. He said, Well, he said, it's a matter of tradition. That if you send Number one you should never use any messenger unless the messenger is trustworthy. And naturally you expect a member of our own family to be trustworthy. Therefore, he said, you're to show your trust in the messenger, you never seal the envelope. Then the receiver would know that this was a trustworthy messenger and could treat you accordingly. Now, he said, if there's any question of doubt, he'll seal it and then the receiver would know there was some question of doubt, and he would seal back the reply. But if it came unopened, unsealed, he would return the reply unsealed. He said, That is a showing that people are honest. Which made quite an impression on me er have you heard of this before Aled? No and er what is interesting to me too is that erm in that office, you w w were responsible for carrying me message in the Porthmadog area. Now erm the letters that were er written, there was always copies made. Oh yes. How was this done? And er this of course er we th the office was being run I would think in the early twenties very much like it was done in the late nineties. And we had all the equipment that was needed, the only new thing wa was a very aged er er typewriter, maybe Mm. two. And there was the best one of course, your cousin was able to use. So then er and I had to do with the antique . The other. Mm. But basically, when my uncle he sometimes would dictate his letters. And your cousin was one of the first one of the few women I ever knew, who could take shorthand in Welsh. Because he wrote quite a few letter in Welsh and he would dictate them to er Margaret . Margaret. And then she'd type them on this special machine that had indelible ink in it. Then it was my job to take the original t and take the original because they didn't use erm er black-sheet as we M er Americans call it . Carbon. D didn't use carbons. You would take then the original, and you'd put it in the copy press. there's be books o of they were leather-bound er letter books you see. And flimsies on them. And you would take this book and you'd put a hard piece of it was a kind of a a cardboard that wouldn't absorb water I've forgotten what the thing was made of. You'd put that down first. Then you'd put the flimsy down. Er no no the out the the original of the er letter down. Yeah. Then you'd put the flimsy over it and then there was a kind of a an e an absorbent kind of a rag the right size, not too wet, cos if it was too wet it would run. And you'd put that on top of the flimsy and you'd close the book and you'd take the book and put it in the letter press and squeeze it Archimedes theory of a screw and this thing My cousin later told me, was bought third hand in eighteen sixty nine. So God knows where it was built. And er it's cast iron of course, with a steel screw and then er big brass balls on the end of this thing and then you would squeeze it down and then if you did it correctly, you took it out and the indelible ink, would have transferred the actually letter including the signature on the flimsy which was then filed in the Ledger. in in in the ledger. In the letter ledger you see. For for every amen. And then you mailed the letter or delivered the letter or whatever was necessary. Yeah. Now you didn't have to copy everything, but Uncle Jonathan was very meticulous and anything that there would be any debate on, or any discussion on, he always made a copy and it was my job to do this without smearing it. And if I smeared a copy, God help cos then there'd be a problem. Er How many of these a day would you have? Was it quite a lot? Oh yes, because er we had a lot of letter going back an forth to architects or to other slate merchants or to quarry owners. Mm. Or er you know er quotations on this , Yes. and quotations on that. And you had to be careful and you had to keep your hands clean. That was one of the orders, there was a little bathroom down in the in the first floor and the thing that they must not get, was your hands dirty. Now old wore a black thing afore his shirt, now because he was with ink all over him you see, but he he he didn't do this. That was my job so therefore my hands had to be constantly clean and that's not easy for a seventeen year old to keep his hands clean all the time but I had to. And if you did smear it, there was all hell to pay because then, Margaret, your cousin, would have to retype it. Yeah. And then I'd have the joy of taking it up to Uncle Jonathan to get a new signature and of course he'd know that something had gone wrong and then he'd Yeah. looked over his glasses you see. And then they had a dumb waiter from er the main office to and and Robert's office and and did not suffer fools gladly either. . And so he'd holler down, he wanted a certain book of correspondence and invariably you might put the wrong one in. And once I nearly got my head flattened, cos I sent up the wrong thing and bang he sent it down and I just got my head out of there in time. But this was a part This was a very dangerous job to stick your nose up in there. But then. we had a strong room were some of the very confidential matters, estates and all that kind of stuff, er was kept and some money kept. And because er as I said, this had originally been a bank or a Mm. savings and loan or something and this was a big strongroom in there. And it was a lot lot of fun you see, to to get in there I hope will never hear this, to get in there and squeeze her. In the strong room. Yeah. But er then there was erm a desk we had big stools and poor old was trying desperately to get me to add correctly you see, and he'd he'd let me add and then he'd always find there was a mistake in it and he'd try to tell me why. Didn't carry this, didn't carry that. But I was supposed to do some of the clerical work. But he checked every bit of my work of course and so most of the time do it by himself and let and me do other things. And then the table where the girls sat on their typewriters, then there was a on this on a hall, you came into a hall. And there was erm a kind of a glass door, a sliding door with a er b bell push on it. So that if somebody come in to call, they'd pull this thing and then Mr or somebody would open the the sliding door and you see. So one time I made a very sad mistake, Somebody pushed the bell, and I opened it and I said, I'll have two bitters. And it was my Uncle Jonathan. Well this was not very good. So orders were given that I was not under any condition to open that thing unless I knew who was there . You also got into trouble about the press didn't you? Oh yes. Trying to impress er and your your cousin, on my strength you know, young men always try to sh show women of any age, how strong they are. Up to a certain point. I've reached that point now. I couldn't fight my way out of a paper bag now . I I was trying to show how tight Yeah. I could squeeze this Yeah. thing and cracked it. So naturally I had to get it with and it was heavier th I don't know how much it weighed, I I I got it by the way, in my barn in farm in Indiana, one of the last relics of Brothers. And I had to put it on the seat of my bicycle, push it all the way and it'd be a good mile from Street to right across from . To have them er weld it. Cos it was cracked, it was useless of course. And and I had to pay for it of course. Now I was making ten shillings a week, and I had to pay a penny toll every day to come to from office. And then I had to pay tuppence in cafe for a cup of tea and mother would fix me a sandwich. And occasionally if I was really flush, I'd buy a little cake for another tuppence you see. Couldn't afford to go to they was too expensive. Anyway I had to push this thing and had to wait for it. No no I wasn't allowed to wait for it cos it was gonna take peddled all the way back to do something else. And the next day I picked it up and of course it was ten shillings, my full Week's wages. Yes . week's er wages and erm and I'd deservedly so, it was my own damn fault. Mhm. It was years later that my cousin who dies some years ago, he was ninety two. Told me that at just about the same age, he did the same thing to try and impress the then girl in in the office. So anyway that was one of the reasons, when I found that Brothers was slowly going out of business, when I saw last in , and I asked him if er I could have this thing? And he said, Well, he said, you go and see . was still there. This was many years ago now ab ten years ago I guess, so I went and saw and of course, erm Mr was dead and his son was running it and had sold his shares. But anyway, they allowed this that they didn't have any further use for it that I could have it. SO I asked some friends of mine who were in the antique business from , Indiana, pick it up. And I've got it at home. But er it was interesting that both young men Mm. s s several decades apart, had broken this about the same place you see. When you were in the office,wh was there much contact with overseas countries, were they shipping a lot of slate ? Yes there was still some contact with Hamburg, and there was still some contact with other Baltic ports and then there was some contact in repairing of of erm s churches. I think I think there was som some sent to Chester for example, I think they were doing something in the cathedral in Chester. Mm. And then you were talking about San Francisco earlier, now there are some churches in San Francisco that had Welsh slate and it must have gone by sea all the way Yeah. to to to San Francisco before my time. The one that I remember and I hope that that er the papers are either here in Caernarfon in the archives or p possible in the National Library because my cousin , gave most of the Brothers papers that he had control over Mm. to the National er Library. Library in Wales. And I understand that have given you the balance here. Mm. So therefore the the Brothers are divided. And anyway the thing that I remem recall vividly, this happened in nineteen early nineteen twenty eight. It was years later that I knew all about it. But the Rockefeller Brothers as you probably know, have spent millions of dollars in redoing er Williamsburg, Virginia which was the colonial capital. And also where from taught at William and Mary College. And is buried there. And er William The college of William and Mary is still going of course. They're one of the fine universities of Virginia. But anyway, some lawyer I think in New York, working for Rockefeller Brothers, sent a piece of slate to my Uncle Jonathan, asking him could he tell, what quarry in Wales, this particular tile had come from. Because the governor's palace was in a state of very sad repair and they had to put a new roof in it. And they had come to the conclusion that it was not American slate cos there were no quarries in that time. Even in Pennsylvania, and that this was Welsh slate taken probably from Bristol in Ballast to get tobacco back. So I cannot tell you now, I can't remember where the quarry was whether it was North Wales Quarry, whether it was Slate Quarry down in in in Mm. South Wales, because Uncle Jonathan was part owner of the Quarry. And as you know, the slate's on Mm. on er er the college here in Mm. in Bangor. And but anyway, I remember this inquiry coming in. And the old man saying exactly what quarry it came from. Mm. And then writing back to this contact i either in New York or in Virginia or wherever it was, saying that it th they would give him the dimensions of the roof, that they could tell him exactly how many slates they'd need to cover it. So many squares you see. Mm. Mm. So e eventually, in due course, Brothers got the order. To furnish the slates to reroof the governor's palace in Williamsburg Virginia. And I hope when you go there e Aled that you'll look at that because that's all Welsh slate. Mm. And handled by Brothers now. I I remember working on some of the of the paperwork involved in it. We had a you know there was a lot of paperwork involved. We had to but the slates, we had to er g get the right dimensions, the right thickness and all that stuff. And so I worked on it as as a kid now. I wasn't er the main one of course because it was Mm. all very high mucky muck stuff and they wouldn't trust me with anything but at least I did the copying work on it. Yeah. So it must be in the records somewhere. Yeah that's very interesting. How many slate shippers were there in in PorthMadog when you were in the office, was there another shipper? Well was er er er was Yeah. sending slates and er I think I don't know if there are any o er er many of the slate merchants had gone . Had gone out of business, yeah. There were some of course in in Bangor and Caernarfon. Yeah. Yes. From the . Yes. But not in Porthmadog Not in Porthmadog I think I think that I think that Brothers probably was the last. Yeah. Slate merchants. Erm David the shipbuilder was still alive then wasn't he I think. Do you er did but they hadn't built a ship in Porthmadog since nineteen thirteen. disappeared? No I remember I er I don't remember the yard. No. But I remember so I remember the ships some of the ships in in Porthmadog. Yeah. Because er on another er matter, my Uncle John John from from er . During the first war he'd he'd lost a ship and so finally he decided to buy a ship and he bought two little schooners in f in Porthmadog. One I think was the industry and the other was was it the Brendan that he says in Yeah. Brandon yes. Well I remember being aboard the Brandon, because Uncle John came and stayed with us at the cliff and er, er father was at sea somewhere but he came and stayed with us and then he now went down into er to see his captain cos they were sailing on on the tide the next day. I think they were going somewhere to Ireland, I'm not sure, but they had a load of of slates. For somewhere and and something else. May maybe something I don't know what they . How many crew would there be on the Brandon? About four or five. And anyway, they sailed cos I was aboard the night before they sailed as a . This was about nineteen seventeen. You see I I'd be about seven. But I was interested in the sea, I wanted to go to sea, and and er Uncle John was my pirate uncle I thought. Yeah. very fond of. And erm he'd gone to sea at a very early age and had er both steam and sail and you k I've given you his history, er and he was quite a fellow. But the only thing I know is that that ship was sunk by the Germans in Cardigan Bay. Probably the next day. And I was interested in seeing er er your T V series about this ship from Porthmadog that was sunk in the Mediterranean. Yeah. But you didn't mention a a thing about a ship being sunk in cardigan Bay. Maybe you didn't know about it. Anyway, the only we know is that the lifeboat was washed ashore near , and not a sign of of men on it. So the men all were lost. And as I recall, there was some talk that there were some machine gun bullets in in in in the boat. In the boat. Yeah. In the boat. And this was nineteen seventeen? About nineteen seventeen, towards the end of the war. Cos there were a lot of losses of course o in after the convoys had been introduced for the ocean thing but they hadn't introduced convoys for inshore. That's right. And this is where the ships were being lost. That's right. And of course Mm. a a sailing vessel was duck soup. Absolutely. And of course er the Cardigan Bay is dangerous for submarines God knows but they were pretty good submariners, Yeah. the Germans were. Yes. And they would be They'd be they'd be on their way If they were going to Ireland, they'd be a a a well away from St Patrick wouldn't they? Yes. Oh absolutely. No you w to go back to your days in the office, erm you say that there was er er this group of wo people working in the office. Yeah. Erm were there er opportunities for boys in Porthmadog to get erm work or was it a a period when it was difficult to get work? Well er don't forget it was it was after the w after the war and the depression. You see the shell factory at er at had closed down and of course there was a lot of women and er out of work there and boys too. And the ex the explosives were just starting up. Th they had been Mi Ministry of munitions works Yeah. Making T N T in in . Yeah. And the quarries of course were er the the the pretty dead. The quarries never fully recovered really after the big strike you know . and also of course the fact that the German market had closed. The German market had closed. Which was the reason the raison d'etre That's right because you see the the German Mark was worthless. Mm. In the twenties. Yeah. And er you you the I even if they wanted to to to buy Welsh slates, Mm. They didn't have the wherewithal. No. And of course another thing and and my Uncle Jonathan was a very great liberal and a great believer in free trade, but I think his faith in free trade started to take a a bashing because he was inundated by French and Belgian sl er er not slate er Tile. Tile. Mm. Was coming i Yes. in other words, there were very n very little new building Mm. going on with with with the specifications of of of of slates. I remember for example having to to to send reams of letters to architects Mm. and I found that you do not address an architect as Mr Jones, it must be Edward T Jones Esquire. Yeah. And er because they were professional men you see . Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. To come back to Jonathan for a moment, you say he was a great liberal, he was an admirer of Lloyd George? He was one of Lloyd George's very early supporters. And er whether this is true or not is immaterial, it's part of the family er story that when Lloyd George was importuned by the this family up in . Er w and he'd been turned down by and all the other er top lawyers in Yeah. in in Porthmadog or on taking on er the the Bishop of Bangor, I mean that was taking on Mm. A pretty important er creature you see. And er the story's been told many many times that Lloyd George advised them, I've forgotten the name of the old man, but his wife was buried in the churchyard, and his family wanted to bury him next to her, but they wanted the nonconformist Mm. minister Mm. to do the the honours. And of course the disestablishment, disendowment bill had passed but No it had not passed then. It was one of the things that brought it about but they they could bury her there, but only the Anglican Mm. priest could er do the honours. Mm. You know, the nonconformist was anathema. So Lloyd George as the story goes, advised them to go there with their father and take some crowbars with them, and not to break down the gate, to break down the wall, and take their minister with them and bury their father. Then he said, the Bishop of Bangor will have to sue you. Then I'll take the case. Well he was just a struggling young lawyer in Porthmadog. But a close personal friend of Jonathan . Jonathan was a was a coming up he was then, not then a Justice of the Peace but he was a up and coming young young er business man in Porthmadog and of course Porthmadog was a very er prosperous place at that time. And the slate merchants were doing alright because there were thousands and thousands of tonnes of slate going through their hands. And so the story goes that he er said he would support David er David G Lloyd George and help on this case. And the story that I heard which may not be true that he had he didn't have the wig and gown. Because it eventually went it a high court you remember. And so er well they hired it from Moss Bros they did, Uncle Jonathan paid the fee, for the rental of the of the gown and whatnot to to try this case. But that's what I was told, whether it's true or not, maybe the Lloyd George people deny it but there it is. He didn't have much money you see at that time. What else do you remember about Porthmadog, you were talking about it d during the war years now for example when you were a very young boy. Erm what else do you remember about Porthmadog during that period? Well I remember er there was a fella by the name of Have you ever run across him? Or ? Who was a second or third officer on the Lusitania. And he ended up as the port captain for Cunard in New York. Because they had to keep him there for so damn long in this inquiry er the senate inquiry and all the stuff on the Lusitania. So he finally they made him port captain for for Cunard and I knew him. He he was a contemporary of my cousin . That's one thing I remember. And then of course there was always young men being lost at sea. And erm my my Mrs Jonathan , my aunt Auntie Bessie, invariably in Porthmadog, went to call on the families of people who'd been lost, as my mother did in in we lost you see in fifty two men killed in world war one. And er I remember one one day, there was nineteen of them. maybe it was the battle of the Somme, I don't remember, but I remember I had to go carrying the basket, and mother would go and call on these poor people who had lost their their families. And occasionally I'd go with Auntie Bessie in in Porthmadog you see. Do you remember the any particular vessels being lost? Do you remember The Brandon I remember. Yes. Because I was aboard her. Mhm. That's right yes. But erm Did you see any of the other schooners in there? Do you remember Oh yes there used to be a lot of schooners. Then there was an old ship, the Spooner, Yes the Sea Spooner. Sea Spooner, now she became a hulk didn't she. Yeah. And she was laying up by the quay by where they've got those Yeah. silly buildings now. But she was there when I was a boy and even when I went to school in Porthmadog. Yes. When did she b break up eventually? Er Must have been the thirties. Ye yes I think so, yes. And the Elizabeth came back to er Porthmadog at the end of the war I believe and was erm she was a schooner and also didn't er er David the builder buy some submarines for scrap or something? Seems to me that there was some and then of course the Wave of Life Yes. I rem vaguely remember her. You may remember her yes. Yeah yes . Vaguely you see, seeing her puffing up and down. Yes. We'll stop there erm for a minute. Does this make sense? Now another er I remember after the war, er 's explosives took over the works in in . And they started er exporting whatever they were making, explosives. A lot of them of course went to the quarries, but then they had a little steamer called the Florence Cook and she plied wherever she went and you probably know where she went. Mm. Used to go to Liverpool I think. Yeah. And some other places. Maybe maybe Wrexham somewhere. But she I remember her going in and out of Porthmadog. 's father was master of her at one stage. Was he? Was he? Yes that was a point of contact Yes. And Jack of course went ran her out once I think. Yes. Jack of course er er I I know I've known him know him in the United States, but er Jack jumped ship in Baltimore. Yes. I don't know what ship he was on? No. No. Jumping ship No he w he went to the United States, so did you. When did you go to the United States? Well I went to the United States, I I I sailed from on the R M S Corinthia, from Liverpool on the twenty eighth of September, nineteen twenty nine, and arrived in New York, on the seventh or eighth of September in nineteen twenty nine, which was just one week before the stock market crash. And I was er I was er let me see, eighteen years and ten months old. And er I of course always wanted to go to sea, but er wh with two drowning in the family, er mother w w didn't appreciate that much. So anyway I finally persuaded her that I'd that I'd like to emigrate to to the United States and she we I had some contacts in the United States of course, through her. I'm sorry to disturb you. That's alright. May I just put this on Yes. Mr 's desk. Right. . I'll take these away too. Thank you very much for the coffee. Have you got your Very good. Yes yes thank you. thank you very much . Right Er now it's it's rather interesting er as an aside, I'd heard that the Central African mounted police were trying to hire young men of er er at least sound mind and probably tough body. And the theory was that if you served thirty years in the Ce Central African police, you'd be given a section of land in what later became Rhodesia. And of course I I wanted some land as I presume all Welshmen are land hungry. And especially since we were freeholders, er but anyway, er thank God I wasn't quite old enough. And I didn't go, but a chap that I knew from whose name I can't remember at the moment, did go and he was killed within about three months of his er arriving in Africa. Probably I would have been too. But so then my mother My mother's father and the father of Golden Rule Mayor Jones of Toledo, Sam Jones, born in were first cousins. And er Golden Rule Jones there's all kinds of stories about him of course. He became a very rich man but he he er ran his company based on the golden rule Which was? To do unto others as you would have others do unto you. He was the first man to organize an eight hour day, and two weeks' vacation with pay. And erm there's a lot they've they've they've done some television work on him and anyway er in nineteen O three, he came over in the you know about in nineteen hundred with his family and I've got a picture of them in that's where he came from in . And from is quite a he's doing some research into him and who comes form you know these people. And they're chasing chasing him. Well he was my my mother's first cousin you see. So he invited her sent her a ticket to come to America for a year in nineteen three. But my grandmother was an old victorian, my mother would not then insisted that she have a chaperon, so Mrs Jonathan , Auntie Bessie, went with her. But er according to my mother's great joy, she got seasick even on the landing stage in in Liverpool and never came out of her cabin, so she had a big time as a young women running around the ship. And old man Heinz of Heinz fifty seven varieties, they were a big time, and gave her a little silver pickle with Heinz on it. sterling silver, and I've still got it. But anyway, she went to so she had she she wasn't she'd been very pro American until I decided I was gonna emigrate. But anyway, she made me promise that my first day in New York, I'd go to Statue of Liberty. Now Statue of Liberty of course is in in the news. And when I was when I got to New York, I was met by two first cousins from two different families er Bert who's er er nephew of my my mother's sister Laura Anne in in New York, and another one, William who'd been very successful vice president of or something. So anyway, erm they met me and Bert had to go back to his office and Will said he had to go back to his office, but he said, What would you like to do? I said I'd like to go see the Statue of Liberty, I promised my mother I would. Well he said, Alright, he said,I've made arrangements for your baggage to be picked up and you'll stay with me in New Rochelle, and he was going away and he slipped me ten bucks cos I only had ten pounds money. And he said, here's a cab, and you tell this cab driver where you want to go. So I had no idea where this place was, I knew where it was at the chart but I didn't know where it was from from pier fifty four in New York. Cunard Pier. So I got aboard this cab, and the guy said, Buddy where do you want to go to? And I didn't know what this buddy meant? And I said, I want to go to 's Island. He said, Where? And I said,'s Island. He said, Never heard of it. I said, Obviously you haven't read the chart, that's where the Statue of Liberty is, on 's Island. Cos I had studied the chart to k know something about er and I I presume I was one of the few people in New York, who knew the damn thing was on 's Island you see. Anyway I went there and I was impressed, I'd seen it from the ship and I completely concur with everything that's been said. How all those immigrants and children of immigrants, that the Statue of Liberty, means a great deal to those Americans who whose parents or who came themselves from another country. Now I wasn't coming I wasn't a refugee from anything except unemployment. But erm er the on that ship I remember we stopped at Queenstown . And I remember a whole boat-load of these young Irish lads and lasses coming aboard you know, weeping and wailing. And there was a guy with one arm,and saying, you know, Come ye back to Ireland. You know. very moving but we had a big big time and of course when you're eighteen, er it'd be an adventure. And of course er I knew something about America, my mother had been there and er we had some c I had eighteen first cousins in America when I went there. But anyway, my job was to go out to Toledo. And stopped on the way of course in . And they tell the story you know about the Welshman from or erm or somewhere, emigrating to America and heard about all his life as being the great Welsh centre. And we got to New York . . How much bigger will be? in his mind was bigger than New York. Yeah. But anyway er New York in those days, first time I ever remember, I ran into the flappers you see. Girls with silk stockings and and the girls in in er Wales I must say, and even in Liverpool in those days, used to wear stockings. Mm. But these silk stocking things you know just Yeah. drive a man up the wall. But anyway er that's when I went and then I went from there to Toledo, Ohio. And er what I had done really was to skip going into the bank. Er my brother John had been er gone to work for the Bank in and unfortunately was drowned in an accident when he was not quite twenty. And he had begged my mother not to ever put me in the bank. And the only examination that I ever voluntarily and with malice aforethought, Mm. er failed, was the Bank examination, entrance examination in Colwyn Bay in nineteen twenty seven I think it was. And that's one of the reasons I ended up I ended up in in Brothers because I had missed the chance to go into work with the Bank you see. And I didn't want to go work for the Bank. Erm, It's Culture Beat and Cherry Lips, which is our out-tro music Erm, but unfortunately, something's wrong with the equipment, or something Oh, I see so it jumped to this different track, with different timing, and it came up, I like you, so I thought, oh, let it roll. Is that an early Christmas present, that sweater? Do you know how old this sweater is? No What do you think, what do you think? Pam Dixon's here, the bearded wonder has taken himself off for the weekend Yes, er I thought you were calling me the bearded wonder then. Dominic's changed dramatically, I know, I know Dominic you do look strange since Yes, I know And this is The nicest looking edition of Dominic I've ever seen A much better Dominic, you've improved dramatically Thank you very much Yes This is, you're not gonna believe this no go on tell, tell me Right, like it, it is about fourteen years old Is it really? It looks, it looks as good as Is it nice? Yes Christmas red you see And still, still still fits you, you haven't put a weig you haven't put any weight on at all. Anyway It's running up the stairs that does it. Pam's rather impatient to get on Is she? Oh why? Yes, she absolutely is so, we'll have to erm, find out from you what they've been talking about. Well, we had our Friday debate Mhm. and the Friday debate was, Christmas has lost its meaning because of commercialization, it was er the old chestnut, you know. Well, ninety percent, nine O percent agreed. Erm Ten percent disagreed, and I was not surprised. it starts a lot earlier, doesn't it, ever earlier. It does, end of November, we've got another two weeks to go, oh it's, Christmas should be Christmas shouldn't it? You know, one of the effects are a little bit tranquil but anyway, the other thing which erm, everyone really enjoyed, er, cos I know you would remember this er, Dougie, is your first kiss Oh, I don't think I can, it's so long ago. Oh come on Douglas, come on No, no it's so long ago, no, no, no, no. Can I ask you, when was your first kiss, Pam? It was erm, I shouldn't think, I shouldn't say this on the air, it was f on a cellar steps, at a teenage party. Disgraceful, that! I had to go and look at somebody's chandelier, that was hanging in the cellar Really erm Oh dear, Dougie's getting a bit, I see Dougie's getting a bit er, yeah, erm A bit hot under the collar. Anyway, one lady said, Go on, one lady said she was put off for life after her first kiss, and never kissed another man. She's now in her seventies. Yes, it's the effect you have on women Someone had a kiss in a broom cupboard. I don't know what that was like a broom cupboard lovely, a kiss after Postman's Knock, yes. and one lady was told by someone who kissed her first, first kiss, said to her, she was just a natural Right I thought , so I'll leave it at that as the song says, a kiss on the hand is quite, continental, diamonds are a girl's best friend. Right, and on that happy note, we'll start with the news, Dave thank you very much indeed. Well er there's some happy news. Three British hostages are on their way home from Iraq, after being freed from a jail in Baghdad. The release of Paul , Michael and Simon follows a mercy mission by former Prime Minister, Sir Edward Heath. Iraq is denying that the move is a bid to have sanctions lifted. Well it's one of the talking points this morning, if you'd like to give me a call. Has a deal been struck do you think, what's in it for Saddam, what's in it for Britain? I'll be talking to our diplomatic correspondent, David Spannier, later in the programme. In fact, after the seven o'clock news, but if you'd like to get ahead with er one of your comments, then it's . Labour has broken off parliamentary relations with the government, the move which will end the system of pairing for Commons' votes, is in protest of plans to rush controversial legislation through the Commons. And, health and safety watchdogs say they're not convinced the Channel Tunnel has sufficient safety measures in place to protect passengers. The tunnel is due to open next May, but the Health and Safety Executive say procedures still haven't been tested. On that talking point perhaps, would you go through the Channel Tunnel, knowing what you know about it at the moment? Anyway, Pam Dixon has sat very, very patiently through all this claptrap with laddie, now here's the sport. and Michael and Stefan Edberg meet in the semi-finals of the Grand Slam Cup in Munich. The winner is set to be some half a million pounds better off. And you might be better off if you put a tipple on the old racing today. It's at Doncaster and Cheltenham. Well, Derek had another winner, he's had a very good week Pam, by his standards. He's had three winners in four days, and he had at Fakenham yesterday, at fifteen to eight, so not too bad a day for again yesterday. Fingers crossed. Right, see you in the six o'clock news er spot. Okay. Okay, right, time to check on the first travel report of the morning. Rob morning Twenty one minutes to six the time, if you'd like to give me an early ring, then it's . Well, quite a few talking points this morning. First of all, the main story in our news at five thirty, and I think unless anything more dramatic happens, it will be the main story right through the news bulletins of this programme. Three British hostages on their way home from Iraq after being freed from jail in Baghdad, Paul , Michael and Simon . They're released, and all this follows a mercy mission by Sir Edward Heath. Well, I wonder if you feel that er, there's something more to this than meets the eye. Saddam has never been known for doing something for the benefit of others. It's obviously for the benefit of Saddam, and I wonder what you think that benefit might be? Do you think some deal has been struck? Saddam certainly has done his best to milk the whole occasion. I think it was er fairly evident that he had given permission for the three British hostages to be released after Sir Edward Heath's meeting with Tariq . But er no, Sir Edward had to go through the full rigmarole of a meeting with the great man, I put that in inverted commas, but er I suppose he thinks he is, the great man himself, Saddam Hussein. So, I wonder if you feel there is a deal. I wonder if you feel that even if there was a deal, the British government, the Foreign Office, represented as they were, so admirably really, by Sir Edward Heath, he seems to have done a very good job, I wonder if he had to work very hard, or do you think perhaps, anybody could carry that out? Sir Edward, of course, has had experience in getting hostages freed before. So er, perhaps he was the man for the job. There's a lot to discuss here, and er I just wonder if you'd like to throw in your two penn'orth before I talk to our diplomatic correspondent, David Spannier on this subject, after the seven o'clock news. is the number to ring. Now, another story that is er an interesting one this morning, and I'd like to hear your view on, families with two television sets could soon be paying twenty pounds extra for their licence, to lessen the burden on hard-up viewers. Well, a lot of people might think that is very fair, the new charge would mainly hit households where the children are allowed their own sets. But of course, a lot of er family homes now have er more than one set, perhaps more than two. There's generally one in the main parents' bedroom, perhaps there's one in one in er one of the youngsters' bedrooms, there could even be one in the kitchen these days. So er, I just wonder if you feel it is fair that er you should pay twenty pounds extra for another set. I wonder if you should pay twenty pounds more again if you have a third set and again if you have a fourth set. Give me your views on this. Other changes, this is the Commons' Heritage Committee of MPs who er were sitting yesterday, under their er leader Gerald Kaufman, the former Labour politician, well he still is a Labour politician, but er he's not so high profile now in politics, but he seems to be creating a bit of a stir here. Other changes include high, higher charges for hotels, a new fee for car radios, and an increase in specialist programmes, funded by subscription. But I think the twenty pounds extra for another telly is the one that er you might like to comment on this morning. . Health and safety watchdogs say they're not convinced the Channel Tunnel has sufficient safety measures in place to protect passengers, and after that incident a few weeks ago, which was er certainly played down by the authorities, I wonder just how safe the Tunnel is. Well, it doesn't open till May, but the Health and Safety Executive say that safety procedures still haven't been tested, and even if they had, would you go through the Tunnel? I was at a dinner other night, er where er French Railways were the hosts, and of course they were doing their best to er tell everybody to travel through the Tunnel naturally enough, because that's what their trains will be doing come May, and er one or two people, it must be said, were just a touch sceptical. I wonder, if you'd been at that dinner, would you have joined them in their scepticism. . Now, at around twenty five minutes to seven, I'll be talking about a fascinating report in She magazine, and it's entitled How to Survive House Guests from Hell, and it's a seasonal item, and of course we all know that er we, a lot of people er go to stay with friends and relatives over the Christmas period. Frequently they stay for some days. And it will be some days this time, because Christmas day is on Saturday, so it's a very long, long weekend and holiday period. So if you have house guests for the festive period it could be that they might be staying four or five days. I wonder if you're looking forward to it, perhaps many of you are? I wonder how many of you are dreading it, it's the duty visits, it's the duty receiving isn't it really? There's a Danish proverb, you know, that states that fish and guests smell after three days and er we all know the visits which have begun so successfully from friends and relatives, it needn't be Christmas, it could be at any time of the year, which are often ruined by people lingering on well past their sell-by date. So, we'll be looking at er, some of the categories of people who come to stay. And we'll be looking, more importantly, at how you can perhaps get rid of them when you want, or even better, er put them off altogether. That's er a little bit of fun in that, but er we might have a little bit of advice for you if you are preparing to receive guests you'd rather not see over Christmas. If er you've had dreadful experiences with er guests staying at your place, give me a ring on and share your horrid experiences with me. And of course the tragic death, far too early really, for Danny Blanchflower cut down by disease, and er one of the greatest footballers, I suppose, not only of his generation, but of anyone's generation and er, how sad it is, that we should lose two of our greatest footballers in this one year. Both the old style wing-halves, I suppose they'd call them mid-field players now, Bobby Moore and now Danny Blanchflower. Danny graced the Spurs team of course, er completed the double with them, when he was captain, and I know a lot of Spurs supporters will remember those days. Perhaps you'd like to reminisce and say was he one of the greatest players ever to put on a Spurs jersey. I suspect he was, or come to that a Northern Ireland jersey. It's fourteen minutes to six. A quick reminder, many people will know, but a quick reminder and er, if you've perhaps just come back from holiday yourself, or you're one of our new listeners, you may not know so I'll tell you, Douglas Cameron's Breakfast Call, this very programme, will be breaking new ground at the end of next month. We'll be travelling down under to Australia, and coming live to you for a whole week from Sydney. And, this is the exciting bit as far as you're concerned. You could be travelling with me. We're looking for two couples to make the trip with the programme. It'll be a working holiday, but my goodness it'll be the experience of a lifetime and to find out how you can join us stay tuned for the Dougie Down Under competition thanks to QUANTAS, Australia's national airline. Eleven minutes to six is the time, and if you'd like to give me a ring on any of the subjects I've mentioned, then it's . People are joining us all the time, so I'm very briefly er just in a word or two, going to go over the subjects, and then if you want to give me a ring, please do so. . The main story of the morning as far as our news bulletins are concerned. The three British hostages, released from jail in Baghdad, now on their way home from Iraq. Sir Edward Heath has done an admirable job, do you think that the die was cast anyway? That er any er public figure worth his salt could have achieved what Sir Edward has done, or do you think he's brought something special to the negotiations, and why has Saddam done it? Not for the benefit of others, he never does anything for the benefit of others, one can only feel that he sees some advantage in releasing these British people. What is it? Has a deal been struck? and if a deal has been struck, what do you feel it might be? and do you really mind, as long as these people have been released? And let's not forget there are one or two more in there as well. They may not be British, but er there are more hostages in there, because hostages really are what they are. Twenty pounds more for any extra television set that you may have in your house. Do you feel that's fair? Another twenty quid if you have a second television set on your licence, I wonder? And, how to survive house guests over Christmas. If you've had a horrifying experience with some visitors that you've invited, then let me know. . Nine minutes to six, the time. Frances has joined me from Harrow. Good morning. Good morning. I would just going to talk about the television licences. Please do Erm, well if we have to pay twenty pounds extra for erm, an extra television, what about the shops that sell them? Mhm. Will they have to pay twenty pounds for each television that they have? Because I assume they pay er, just for one licence now? Do you feel it's a good idea? No, I don't. I mean, some people erm, are elderly and they're confined to their homes, they may have one downstairs, and one in their bedrooms. Mhm I mean, I only have one er, I would like two, but my husband doesn't want another one, but Is, is that because you can't afford it? Oh no, well erm, I assume we could afford it, he just doesn't like one in the bedroom so we have one downstairs. Fair enough. Mhm. But other people erm, I, I think it's a lot of money. It's enough that you have to pay for the licence, which is erm, what is it eighty pounds Er over eighty quid isn't it? Yes, that's right Eighty three pounds I think. Well, it's erm, every other station on, on erm, has erm, advertising, why can't the B B C now have advertising? Ah, well now that's a different erm barrel of worms isn't it really? Well, if that's going to help them with the money, then they won't charge for extra televisions. Right, so you reckon that er they shouldn't charge twenty quid more for another television set, they should take some advertising? That's right What on B B C One? On all of them, why not I mean, erm, on B B C One and B B C Two. Every other station has, you even have advertising on radio, why can't you have it now on B B C One and Two and cut down the eighty pounds ? Well yes you don't have advertising on B B C radio of course do you? I mean the B B C er television and radio is er still what we call er, state controlled, isn't it really? Not, not a commercial sector at all. Yes, but if erm, they want to put their licences, er they're the only ones that have the revenue from the television anyway, Mm. why can't they now decrease that, and er start doing advertising? Okay Frances, well, er, we'll get some comment on that after the six o'clock news, I'll be bound. Never mind paying twenty pounds extra for a second television set, and another twenty pounds if you have a third set in your house. Why don't the B B C, both radio and television, take advertising, and then we not only would not need to pay an extra twenty quid, we probably wouldn't need to pay the eighty odd pounds that we're paying already for a colour television licence. And now throw something else in. How about a special purchase tax on televisions, what do you feel about that? Ring me, and we'll take your calls after the six o'clock news. The number, as ever,. It's six and a half minutes to six. Judy Flowers here to have a look at our stars. Good morning. Good morning, Doug Well, it's a bit of a sandwich this weekend, isn't it really? It is . We t we sometimes talk about sandwich days don't we, sort of you know the morning, the evening and the middle of the day? Yes, we do, we do. Well, this is very much a sandwich three days, because we've got today and Sunday looking quite good, but a rather difficult and tense Saturday sort of tucked in between. B er, both today and Sunday look very good for socializing and generally enjoying life, but on Saturday I think it's going to be very important to keep things in perspective. Why is that, why has Saturday got in there? Among the bad ones? Well, we've got, er, we've got a difficult aspect, a rather tense aspect. It's got nice flowing aspects today and Sunday, and these rather tense ones coming up on Saturday, so that's why it is. Mm. And, this is particularly so, this er keeping things in perspective, for you Sagittarians tomorrow. Well, I'll tell you one thing, Monday's not gonna be wonderful for me, I've got to go into hospital for a little operation er b but seriously, I'll be out on Tuesday, but I'll, I'll be away for the week er, because the Doc said don't come back to, to work till a week on Monday, so I'll, I'll try and listen if I can, but what have you got for us? The aspects on Monday are very good, Douglas, so don't worry. Are they? Good, good. Yes, there's a new moon and a lovely aspect between Mars and Saturn, which is all about disciplined and constructive action. Have a very good weekend everyone, Douglas, have a, like I said, a good week, get well soon, come back and see us soon. I'll be back with Jeff Clark on Monday. Yes, indeed, Jeff here on Monday. I'll be back, er, hopefully a week on Monday. Hope so anyway. Right, erm, the travel before the six o'clock news. Thought we'd play a little er different version this morning, just to er change things round a bit, but the message is the same. At the end of January, Douglas Cameron's Breakfast Call will be broadcasting live from Sydney, and in the next few minutes, I'll be telling you how you can win the chance to travel with me, all expenses paid. Stay tuned for the Dougie Down Under competition, thanks to QUANTAS, Australia's national airline. Nine minutes past six, and it's the morning of Friday, December the tenth, if you've just joined us, as many people do after the six o'clock news, or even before the six o'clock news, welcome along to the programme. Now some of the main talking points this morning, certainly the big story as far as the bulletin is concerned this morning, or one of them anyway, one of the top two. The three British hostages, who are on their way home from Iraq, after being freed from jail in Baghdad. The release of Paul , Michael , and Simon , follows a mercy mission by Sir Edward Heath. Iraq is denying the move in a bid to have the sanctions lifted, but er I just wonder. Er, we heard yesterday from some of your phone calls, and indeed we heard, and some of us may have seen on the television news on Wednesday evening, the desperate plight that many Iraqi civilians are now in. The sanctions really are beginning to bite and I wonder if Saddam feels that er he may be able to ask a favour or two from the West, in return for the release of these three British men. He never does things er for the good of er the people concerned. It's generally for the good of himself, and I wonder what's at the back of his mind with the release of Paul , Michael and Simon . Do you feel some deal has been struck with the British government? If it has, do you worry about what deal it is, as long as these three men are released, or do you say we shouldn't do deals with people like Saddam? Did it send a feeling of revulsion down you er when you saw Sir Edward Heath shaking hands with Saddam Hussein yesterday? Or did you feel, well, he's done an admirable job. Do you feel that anybody could have done that job? Or did it have to be somebody like Sir Edward? A lot of things to answer, and er I'd like your replies please on on that particular story. Now, already we've had calls on the next story. Families with two television sets. How do you fancy paying twenty pounds extra for the second set? Well I know you don't fancy it, but do you think it's fair? Well, this has been suggested by MPs on the Commons' Heritage Committee, and this is part of their proposals to spread the burden of the B B C's one point six billion pound costs. It would, they say, lessen the burden on hard-up viewers who can't afford the eighty odd pounds, I think it's eighty three pounds isn't it for a television li a colour television licence now? Anyway let's call it that, it's around that. Eighty three pounds. It would er reduce the burden on those who can't pay. So I wonder what you feel? And I wonder if you feel that er if you have three television sets, then you should pay twenty pounds for the second and another twenty pounds for the third. Now, er some people are ringing up this morning saying well why, why the devil should we pay. Why if the B B C want to make more money, first of all, can't they get after the licence dodgers? Well, I think they are making great inroads now into catching a lot of people who er simply refuse to pay er their television licence, but of course there are a lot more who er are still escaping the net. But er, if they got a few more of those it might help. But the main thrust of your argument this morning, is that the B B C, both television and radio, should take advertising. Well, I wonder if you feel that's a good idea. I know people who will say it's not a good idea, and that's the people in commercial television and commercial radio, who, if the B B C started to take advertising, would see their slice of the cake get just a touch less. So, er we here may not think that the B B C should take advertising, but er let's hear your views on . The Channel Tunnel in the news again this morning. Health and safety watchdogs say they're not convinced that it has sufficient safety measures in place to protect passengers. The Tunnel is due to open next May, not very long really you know, but the Health and Safety Executive, say safety procedures still haven't been tested. Well, we had that incident didn't we, several weeks ago in the tunnel, which the authorities er tried their best to play down? I wonder, bearing in mind that incident, however serious, or minor it was, would you be one of the first to go through the Channel Tunnel? Er, would you be perhaps, er, willing to see how it went, and then maybe go through it next summer or next winter, or would you never, ever go through it ever? . At twenty five to seven, just after the six thirty news sequence, we're gonna be talking about a report in the latest issue of She magazine. Everyone, I think, is vulnerable to the guest, or guests that descend upon you from time to time. Generally relatives from Scotland in my case, and decide to stay, having invited themselves, and you can't really turn them away, er, decide to stay for two or three days. Well, some of them you greet with more affection than others, it must be said. And er, a lot of people of course, will be looking forward, or perhaps dreading Christmas, and the guests that are coming to stay at their house. If er, you've got guests coming, are you looking forward to it, or are you not, and er I'd love to hear some horror stories of er past Christmases, when you've had er perhaps unwelcome guests, or guests who've overstayed their welcome. Well, we may have a few helpful hints. I'll be talking er, to the writer of the article in She magazine in about twenty minutes' time, and er we'll discuss with her, how you make the best of these unwelcome guests. They fall into some categories don't they, like the lazy slob, who never does anything, never washes a dish or ne never helps at all around the house, so even though they stay there for about a week. So, er, I'm sure we all know them, how to stop them coming, or get rid of them as soon as possible. That's what we'll be attempting to find out in twenty minutes' time. And Spurs fans especially, but football fans in general, I'd like to hear your tribute please, to Danny Blanchflower who died so tragically at the age of sixty seven yesterday, from Alzheimer's Disease. I suppose er, he must be in the top ten of all-time great British footballers, wouldn't you say? One of the greatest players ever to put on a Spurs' jersey I would think. A man who led Spurs to the League and Cup double, some thirty or so years ago. You must have some memories of Danny Blanchflower, playing for Spurs and Northern Ireland, if you'd like to share them with me, it's . It's sixteen minutes past six. Seventeen minutes past six is the time, and we still have some trouble on the travel front because we've got delays on the Northern Line of the underground. When I say we've got some trouble, we do, but it's not like the trouble we had half an hour ago, when in fact there were three lines, sections of which there were no trains on at all. But, er, that's been resolved fortunately, we've still got some delays on the Northern Line, and er, obviously do allow yourself a little extra time if you're a Northern Line traveller. If you're one of that unhappy breed. Maybe I'm doing them a dis-service, but I don't think so. Right the cancellations on British Rail. Right, we'll take some calls after this, starting with Humphrey from Kew, David from Pinner and Bob from Edgeware. And that by now familiar music to many of you means that in five minutes it will be the Dougie Down Under competition thanks to QUANTAS, Australia's national airline. As many of you will know, we are going at the end of January, with the programme, to Australia, to be broadcasting live from Sydney for a whole week to mark Australia Day. And we're looking for two couples, er it needn't be husband and wife particularly, although it'll be er very nice if it is, but it can be mother and daughter, father and son, any combination you like really. Two couples to come to Australia with us, and to act as roving reporters, travelling round the country, reporting on what they see to me, on the telephone, live on the programme, all expenses paid, thought I'd just er let you know that er very important fact. And of course, the fact that you are going to be roving reporters will mean that you will have to, if you become a finalist, be able to do an audition live on air. You must of course, have a valid passport, and you must be free to travel in the last two weeks of January. So, in five minutes, I'll be asking you the fifth and final question, which could result in you're going out next month with Dougie Down Under, thanks to QUANTAS, Australia's national airline. Twenty and a half minutes past six is the time. Humphrey has rung me from Kew. Good morning. Good morning Douglas. Erm, I want to talk to you about erm, em,hosp hospitality over Christmas. Right. Erm, to, to, as, as, this,part of it, part of each other,Th Th Thursday, one horrific er erm, guest that my mother had in, in our house down in Gloucestershire, erm, she has a lot of clients, er erm, she's an artist, erm, erm, this woman, erm, er,w er, went up to her bedroom, and erm, and was standing b b by the electric fire and fire, and erm, very nearly scorched her nightdress. In er incredible, and erm, she asked to come away, and erm, erm, she, my mother was, was up, up half the night with it. What Oh, That's all you need isn't it, really? Yes. Yes, absolutely, set the house on fire Oh, my goodness me, Humphrey that's a horrifying experience. Yes, yes. And I wonder if anybody can match that, I don't mean match that, when she nearly set off her nightdress on fire Quite but I no it's a Freudian slip isn't it really? But, er what a horrifying experience. Of course, these things can happen really, er especially if er, one of two of the guests, I'm not suggesting your mother's guests er over-imbibed, but one or two of the guests do have a few jars over Christmas and they get up to all sorts of things in the house don't they? Douglas, I've got two very, very, very, quick, quick, quick very funny stories, Yes erm,f from the erm, erm, former Bishop of Gloucester, erm, what is erm, and what is your erm,def definition of hospitality? What is my definition of hospitality? I don't know Humphrey, what is your definition of hospitality? Making people feel at home when you really wish they were. And another one, Yes? erm, what is your definition of happiness? Definition of happiness, what is it? Eating with nice people,drinking with nice people, and sleeping with a clear conscience. Humphrey, thank you for that. Twenty two minutes past six is the time. David has rung me from Pinner. David good morning. Er, good morning Douglas. I'd like to well, number one I'm an Arsenal fan, but I'd like to speak up on er on the tragic loss yesterday. Of Danny Blanchflower? Because to me Danny Blanchflower, we lost England's number one, now we've lost Ireland's number one, and it looks like we could even lose John , before long, of a similar type of er illness. Yes, I, I was actually just saying to my wife last night, erm, who would have ever thought that in the same year, we could have lost two of the greatest wing-halves, as they were in those days, but I suppose mid-field players they'd be known as today, who'd Yes. have ever thought in the same year, we'd have lost two of the greatest players that this country has ever seen. Yes, but er, the other thing, Douglas, the sad thing about it was, Danny Blanchflower was great er, on and off the field, and it was the old heavy ball, and the longer you played with it, the heavier it got, and then you had that lace in the centre, difficult to er, head a ball, then you had the studs, well, as you know yourself, it's nails. Half of them were badly worn, everybody was open to erm, serious leg injuries Yes. and erm, that finished er, er, Derek er, er of Sheffield Wednesday. Derek Derek , sorry. Derek . That's right, yes. But er, finally about er, our great er Tottenham er player. I don't think the guy was ever booked. No, I shouldn't think he probably was, David, thank you very much indeed. Anyhow, I hope all goes well for you next week. Don't worry, it's not too bad Douglas. Bye. Oh, you've had one have you? Yes, they're referring to the fact I'm just going for a, it's a hernia operation actually, so er everybody says, oh you, no problem at all. Hope they're all right. Bob from Edgeware. Good morning Bob. Good morning. I haven't recovered from Humphrey yet. Erm, He's a card, isn't he? erm, right, Julie erm . I'm glad her husband and all the others are coming home. Yes. But I'm very annoyed with er, the incessant canting about the John Major government. Does she really think that Edward Heath would have got the connivance of the Foreign Office or the government, without it being sorted out beforehand? All it needed was for the envelope to be stuck down. You, you don't think then, that Sir Edward Heath did anything special to get the release of these men? Not really, and to use your words, was there anything about any revulsion of watching them shake hands with Sa that animal, Saddam Hussein. Well, I wonder. You see, see. I, I, I, I just wonder how many people would say oh, that's awful. I never thought I'd see the day when a British politician shook hands with Saddam Hussein. W w what was your own particular feeling Bob, on that? Well, I don't, I'll be fair. I don't like Edward Heath at any time, so I'm slightly prejudiced. He went there, he shook hands, he'd shake hands with a vulture if he thought he could get him up the pedestal, but that's neither here, something was done. A deal was done. I don't think there was a promise, you will get. The promise was probably vague, we'll see it, we may use our good offices to the United Nations to some sort of embargoes or, that's all ca they're likely to be promised because we're not in a position to promise anything. Okay Bob, well Bob thinks that a deal was perhaps done. We'll be talking about this to our diplomatic correspondent, David Spannier after the seven o'clock news. It's now six twenty six. Right time for the Dougie Down Under competition, thanks to QUANTAS, Australia's national airline. Two couples must win an all expenses paid trip to Australia with me, when the Breakfast Call comes live from Sydney at the end of January. We've had four questions already this week, if you missed any of them, we will be repeating them next week, but now here is the final question. What is a baby kangaroo called? What's a baby kangaroo called? Now, as soon as you have the five answers, and do remember that if you er, didn't hear any of the other ones, they will be repeated next week, so you'll have a chance to write all the five answers down. I want you to send them in to me, and here's where er it becomes a little bit different from other competitions, I want you to send them in to me on a Christmas card please. We want to get really festive about this, so answers on a Christmas card only please, to the following address. . Answers, the five of them, on a Christmas card, to and your cards to be in please, by first post, next Friday, the seventeenth. Six twenty seven. Right, after the six thirty news sequence which is coming up directly, we'll be talking about a fascinating report in the January edition of She magazine, about house guests who may well be coming to you for Christmas, and who may well outstay their welcome. We've all had them, haven't we? in the January edition of She magazine, but although it's the January edition, it er does pertain to Christmas, because it's all about the guests you invite to your home over the festive period, some of whom you could well do without. Well Christmas coming on apace, it's twenty two minutes to seven by the way, and it's coming far too fast for er many people I know. It's er gonna be with us a fortnight tomorrow isn't it really, and I wonder if you've got people coming to stay over the festive season, and I wonder if you're looking forward to it? Undoubtedly, some of you will be, but there must be one or two people who are actually dreading Christmas er bearing in mind that they've had to ask somebody whom they don't really want in their house, or perhaps that person or people have asked themselves, and it's very difficult to know how to refuse isn't it really? Especially when they come from a long way, away. Well, how to deal with such guests, and er what sort of categories do they fall into. There's a fascinating article in the January edition of She magazine, it was written by Madeline Rice and she's on the line to me now. Madeline a very good morning to you. Good morning to you. Right the problem is of course, that a lot of these visits start off quite well, but they wear a bit thin after the er third or fourth day, don't they? Yes, there's a er favourite proverb of mine, a Danish proverb, that says er fish and guests smell after three days, and I think I think that's probably quite true. I think after three days they've er worn out their welcome. They, they've seen all the sights, and they've eaten the best of the food and er, erm, it's time to go really, before you know they get, they outstay their welcome, and go past their sell-by date. Nice way of putting it . Some people never quite know when to go, don't they? Oh, some people just, you know, I've a, a friend who's erm, who was with someone at college and he er, said he was gonna stay for a week, and you know, months later, he was still there. I mean, so that guest, that is absolute peril. Yes,an and one never likes, er, the minute they're in the door, to say, when are you actually going? It sounds so discourteous but of course, er three or four days later, you're very sorry you didn't pose that question the minute they er put their foot on er Yes your hall carpet. Erm, there must several categories. In fact, I know there are, because I've had a look at your most amusing, and relevant article. There are certain categories that these guests fall into, aren't there? Yes, erm, the, the most archetypal one is, is the miser of course, who, who turns up with a stale box of chocolates and an ingratiating smile, and proceeds to eat you out of house and home, and then when you're at the supermarket, disappears mysteriously at the checkout, and returns when you've paid with a, a bumper bag a crisps that he keeps in his bedroom when, in case he gets peckish at night. You know, he may take you for a meal after he's stayed a, a fortnight, and it'll, he might lose his wallet, or, take you to the sausage and chips place round the corner, so he, he's a nightmare. And then there's the, the over-amorous couple who er, it's always nice to know your friends are in love, but erm, Yes. it's a little bit disconcerting when they forget you're there, and erm Especially if you've got thin walls. Yes, so you have to, if, you know, with your weekends, where you know there's a lot of banging of spoons, animated chat, to, to cover up what is so audibly going on upstairs. I can well remember, I can well remember when our children, when our children were quite young, and er we had such a couple staying with us. And er, without putting too fine a point on it, er there, there were quite a few moans coming from the bedroom, from the lady, and er, my son said, er, er, I don't think she's very well daddy. I think she's, she's ill, don't you think you should go in and see what's happening, I said, no, I, I don't think so, I think, I think her husband will take care of that. Anyway, the over-amorous couple, yes, they're a bit of an embarrassment, aren't they? Anybody else? Well erm, children, people with children who don't know how to behave, or, or at least use your house as a sort of running ground, erm, not living in London, er, er, I have lots of guests that come from London, sort of using it as, as much as one would exercise dogs, and, and let their children r run,like round the house, and then er, I'm sort of saying things like, oh you're, you're very, very sensible not to have decorated until after your son's older. You know, so that, that's a bit of a nightmare and they erm, sort of never tell their children off, so you know, you're s some ghastly little child can be floating your CDs in the bath Yes. or scrawling on your tiles We're all laughing, but, I mean, it, it, it's absolutely er, enraging, isn't it? If it happens to you, yeah. Oh, absolutely And the c couple that, that never, never stop arguing. They, they probably come in a foul mood, and er, they, they keep up that er bickering over the whole of their stay. That's right, they've probably had a row half way there or something, and it just carries on, you know. Yes. And then they try and enlist your support. They get you in individually, and sort of reveal embarrassing personal stories, and there's, I mean it just becomes a battleground, your house for, for the weekend. Madeline, is there anything that can be done? I think you have to sort of, lay your ground rules, I mean state your case, quite early on and it, I mean, you know, if, if you're not good first thing in the morning, you know, you could tell someone you need three cups of coffee before you're safe to approach or if erm, there's a lazy slob who sort of lies on the sofa all day, you could throw the dishcloth at him, or erm, and also, I mean if it, if there are sort of badly behaved pets and, and children, erm, you know, just, just don't invite them, and if that means your guest list is, is somewhat shorter then all to the good. I mean you could always go away on holiday, if you'd like. I mean that's, at this time of year, when it's coming to the time when people coming round with bargain barrels of biscuits It is difficult, isn't it, not only at Christmas, and, and we suffer from this, probably you do as well, friends from London. Er, we originally, my wife and I, come from Scotland, and when you get people ringing up from er Scotland saying, well we're just passing through en route to Paris, or Amsterdam, or somewhere, can we stay with you for a couple of days, it's very difficult not to say, er, well, I'm busy isn't it really, and you, you've got to accept them really? Yes. You have to, because, how can you be busy for that entire period of time? It's too hard to think on, you know, on the hop, you know, it's not a, it's impossible. They have to, they have to come. Yes, yeah. Well, Madeline, thank you very much indeed. There's a lot in this er, article. Thanks It's very amusing, and you've explained it amusingly to us, but er, there's a lot of truth, I think in er, what you say and er how can we, er make the best of these unwelcome guests who insist on turning up at the most inopportune times, when we're trying to enjoy ourselves. Anyway, I'm sure you'll have horror stories, of guests who've invited themselves. Guests whom you've had to invite, although you really dread it. Er, perhaps, er, something like that is gonna happen to you in a fortnight's time, this Christmas. I'm sure that over the years, you'll have er, gone through some of the experiences that Madeline and I have been talking about over the last five minutes. I'd love to hear your horror stories please, with guests in your home. Not necessarily at Christmas, any time really. is the number. Five, no it's not, quarter to seven is the time. And, er after the break, it'll be Anne from Hither Green, getting us off on our section of phone calls. Most people, I think know by now, certainly regular listeners will know, that at the end of next month, the end of January, this programme, Douglas Cameron's Breakfast Call, will be coming to you live, from Sydney, Australia, to mark Australia Day. And we're looking for two couples, four people, two couples, to travel with us, and to find out er, how you will be able to travel, and what you have to do when you get there, stay tuned for the Dougie Down Under Competition, thanks to QUANTAS, Australia's national airline. I can tell you it's all expenses paid, it's a fabulous trip, and er, we'll tell you how perhaps, you can be on that plane to Sydney with us, later in the programme. Anne from Hither Green. Good morning Anne. Good morning Douglas, nice to speak to you again. Thank you. Erm, you brought back memories you know, when you were talking about unwanted Christmas guests. Yes. When we were children, about two days before Christmas, my mother used to face us all defiantly, and say your Aunty May's coming for Christmas, and we all used to scream no, no, not Aunty May please. Yes, she has nowhere to go, she was like a damp sponge. Yes. She used to enter the house, squelching misery behind her Oh dear! face us all, and the whole Christmas used to be, we used to tease my brother cos he was the young one, you know, and she'd say, no, no, don't tease the little , oh, no don't say that, and the whole of Christmas, was Aunty May sitting on a sofa, being fed brown ale in never ending glasses, not adding one single thing to the whole of Christmas at all. was not a word she knew. Did she come and stay with your family every Christmas? Yes, and every week she'd appear just like the weather. Oh, she was, she was fairly local was she? Yes, and in the end it taught me tolerance and love, because I really learned to love her. I loved her, even though she was miserable, because she was kind, Yes. underneath that exterior, and it made me realize, that you know, you don't have to like your relatives, I'm afraid, you have to put up with them, and love them. That's right, you can pick your friends, but you can never pick your relatives unfortunately. Anne, what a lovely story, although it wasn't very lovely, was it, when Aunty May came round for Christmas, and inflicted herself upon the whole family, with her own particular brand of misery? But, er, I wonder how many Aunty Mays there are coming to your house this Christmas? Peggy of Surbiton, good morning. Morning, Douglas. I've got a very funny story. Erm, a few, a very few years ago, I met a, a daughter of a friend on, on a bus, er going into London. I hadn't seen this, this, I call a child, which she was,excuse me, for about erm, twenty five years. Anyhow, she's living on her own in London, she's not married, so my husband said, oh ask her over, perhaps she'd like to come for Christmas. So we go up and pick her up in Kensington, bring her back, she unpacks her bag and plonks herself down, she eats everything that's put in front of her, and second helpings, you can laugh, she never lifted a fork or a plate off the table. No. We waited on her hand and foot Yes and do you know, she had the most enormous Christmas er lunch, about six o'clock she said, could I have a bowl of soup? Oh no. Yes, and Boxing night, she came up with the, er, the same e enormous breakfast, enormous lunch, do you think I might have two lightly boiled eggs wi with er soldiers? Oh, lovely Yes, forty five years of age. We packed her off the, the following day. How did you manage it? Well, my husband just, just, just said that we were going out, we got to go out, and we couldn't, that was it. Oh. So he took her back, to make certain she kn she was there Yes. but, er, it never st we waited on hand, she never even made her bed Yes, well this is, this is one of the er, categories that we've been talking about. I think she would fall into the lazy slob category, Peggy? I called her a slut. Well yes, er Bit, bit, bit more vicious, because, I think it's dreadful. We waited on her Some people are like that, Peggy, some people are like that. They expect to be waited on hand and foot, they've got no consideration for others. Oh, yes, there's a lot of them about you know. Terry from Camberwell, good morning Terry. Morning, Douglas. Er, you know, Ken, Kenneth Clarke is absolutely right to er protest about the hundred billion for a job creation scheme in Europe. He knows that most of that money will come from just three member states, Britain, France and Germany. All the others will get a handout from any funds set up for whatever reason, Douglas. Mhm. Each British tax payer at the moment, is paying about eight pounds a week for the E E C, and most of those tacp tax payers were dragged by the hair, screaming into Europe, erm, I don't think there's any doubt about that. This government is actually cutting back on everything here just so that the French farmers and the mafia can live in the manner to which they've become accustomed, Douglas. Terry, thank you very much indeed. Er, we're getting quite a few calls on that subject now, John from Erith, good morning to you John. Morning, Douglas, I think that's totally unjustified, myself, yes, I, I think You do? Aha, right what is your view of things? Well, erm, we were worrying about erm, the government being weak in representation in Europe over the two pin plugs, Yes we were, well you can guarantee they're gonna fight tooth and nail over this job creation scheme, to stop it. Mhm. Why do they do it, Douglas? When it's really important, biggest evil in this country, is the unemployment. About five million, million unemployed, when you take the true figures into account. Well, do you think it's as high as that? I do, yeah, personally, yeah, well, you know it's a lot higher than it actually is with the erm, anomalies Yes, yes. that are em, accidentally cut off the erm, figures, Yes. by this government, but er, this is so important to them, it's gonna actually cost them some money, this government, er, they don't invest in anything that's important, it's the biggest drain on us erm, budget deficit. Or it's the biggest cause of the budget deficit erm, in this country, is unemployment and social security etcetera, and we get a, a brilliant plan for erm, job creation, and what do they do? Black it. Well, indeed, that is what they're gonna do. John, thank you very much indeed, two contrasting views there. And indeed, at the summit today in Brussels, John Major is going to fight plans by the European Commission for a one hundred billion pound job creation programme across the Community. As I say, contrasting views on that story, and er if you'd like to give me a ring with your view, then it's very, very welcome. We'll take calls on that and indeed any other subject in the news after the seven o'clock news. It's now six minutes to seven. The time now, on the Breakfast Call, with me Douglas Cameron, is three minutes to seven. Let's move on to the birthdays and the anniversaries. We'll do today, tomorrow, and Sunday. Those are the birthdays and anniversaries. If you'd a dedication mentioned on the day, and it's er, very important isn't it really? If you er, send one in, to get it mentioned on the day, well we certainly do our best, er, sometimes, er, the er, anniversaries and the birthdays, not very often, are crowded out by er, any news stories that we may have to bring you, became first and foremost this is a news programme, er reflecting the stories of the day, but generally speaking we manage to get a full list of your dedications in. Can you let us have a birthday or an anniversary message in writing please, a week before the actual date, don't forget to tell us who it's for, who it's from, and the date. Commonsense you may think, but it's amazing how many people leave out one or more of those essential details. So we'll do our best to get your dedication in on the day, if you will do the rest. The seven o'clock news coming now, right here. Well, that by now familiar music will tell you that at the end of January, Douglas Cameron's Breakfast Call will be broadcasting live from Sydney, and in the next few minutes, I'll be telling you how you can join us down under, for the Dougie Down Under Competition, stay tuned for that, thanks to QUANTAS, Australia's national airline. The time now is nine and a half minutes past seven. I want to concentrate, er for the next five minutes or so, on one of the main stories of the morning. As you may have heard in the seven o'clock news, three British hostages are now on their way home from Iraq, after being freed from jail in Baghdad. The release of Paul , Michael , and Simon , follows the mercy mission by former prime minister, Sir Edward Heath. On the line to me now, is our diplomatic correspondent, David Spannier. David, a very good morning to you. Good morning, Douglas. Why at this point in time, has Saddam Hussein decided to release these three men? Let's say first of all that Ted has done jolly well in getting them out, and everyone deserves er, er you know, he deserves a tremendous vote of thanks from everyone. But Saddam's motives are not at all altruistic, as er, everyone, everyone can guess. It's simply that he wants to create a better atmosphere, and show that after all he's a reasonable man, and we shouldn't be too hard on him in these days. And he gets a lot of publicity out of this by er, being photographed with Ted Heath, by announcing that he's showing clemency to people who are convicted by the Iraqi courts, and that really people shouldn't hold too much against him. Well, he's certainly made a lot of it, didn't he? Milked the occasion for all it was worth. I would have thought, that after Sir Edward's meeting, or Ted, I kno I don't like to call him Ted, I know you know him intimately, David, so you can call him Ted, I'll call him Sir Edward, but after Sir Edward's meeting with Tariq Aziz, surely that was enough, wasn't it? But Saddam had to just play the whole game, and er, he must have got a lot of propaganda out of this, mustn't he? The, the old handshake, with er, Sir Edward? Well, he does, and he doesn't, Douglas. I mean, if we take this as a game, as you rightly describe it, he only takes these people from th in the first place, to have hostages that he can use as bargaining chips later. I mean, these three men, may or may not have strayed across the border, but they certainly did nothing wrong, Erm and they're just jailed for long periods of time, because he wants to assert, Saddam wants to assert, er his authority and show how erm, tough he is. But really these people, and there're about thirty other nationalities, by the way, being held, he just wants to show how tough he is, and it's useful in the future, as now, when he wants to make a gesture. The publicity is fairly short-lived, of course it has tremendous effect on the British media, and we're all very, very happy for the families of these people Yes. but it doesn't actually change British policy, or alter the fact that sanctions are going to be maintained against Saddam. But for his part, er, it looks good, er he gets lots of promotion in the erm, Iraqi press, which he controls anyway, and Iraqi television, and he comes across as a kind of, er, father of the people, who can on one hand show great severity with executions and so forth, on the other hand, dispense er justice and human feelings, and show that he really loves people in general . But David, he's not proving a very good father is he, because er, I'm sure many, many people will have seen pictures on television on Wednesday night, of how these sanctions are really hurting the Iraqi people. The ordinary people in the street. Yes, and that is Saddam's dilemma, I mean,yo the point about him is this, one mustn't think of him as being a rational er politician who does sensible things, for sensible reasons. That is the wrong way to look at Saddam. He's a very, very emotional, unstable dictator, who's just been determined somehow to exploit his position geographically, in the Middle East, to try and emerge as a sort of mini superpower, and to that end, he's done a lot of terrible things, of which the invasion of Kuwait was really only one. But in the course of that, he's so angered the international community that sanctions as we know, economic sanctions have been levelled against Iraq, and they have bit, and they have hurt the Iraqi people, but in general, Saddam is not responsive to that kind of pressure. After all, even if his people as a whole are suffering privations and losses, and can't buy all the things they want, it doesn't affect him and his ruling clique. He has the perfectly healthy, happy life. Have you seen pictures of him? Yes. See how sleek he looks, and how dark and well and such,yes, he does, he does He looks very healthy, doesn't he, very, very fit? Erm er, but there is a point at which, you know, he's always trying to evade sanctions, and usually, and it's a genuine case, he asks that er, essential supplies, like medicines and such, should be allowed through, and er, in the general, the United Nations have responded by saying, Okay, we'll give you that, but you've still got to observe the rules of the international law, which I'm afraid, again and again, he flouts. So, there's no real sign on his part, of a change of heart. No, I mean, there's nothing to stop him arresting more British people, or er, any nationality, come to that, and saying well, they did stray into our territory, I'm sorry about this, but er, we can't have that sort of thing, you'll have to er, come and see if I want to release them in a few months. Nothing to stop him er, doing the whole all over again, is there? Well, he's doing it now, as I say, there're about thirty other nationalities held in Iraqi prisons. But this isn't the worst of Saddam, I mean, this is er, a human tragedy for all the families involved and it concerns individual lives, and for that we're always very upset. But er, he does much, much worse things to his own people, and in particular, the people in the south, called the Marsh Arabs, or, or the Shea Arabs. He's continually er, persecuting them, and there's many, many indications that he uses er, poisoned gas, or chemical weapons, and er lays waste their whole villages, and he's seeking to do this because he wants to dominate his own country, and not allow any minorities a chance to look after themselves, and the same applies of course to the Kurds in the north, whom we have a direct responsibility, the international community, to protect. Now this action against whole groups of people is so awful Douglas Erm that I fear, that sooner or later, we'll probably have to go to war with Saddam again You, you, do you really feel that? I do feel it. I'll tell you why. I mean, there are many, many cases of injustice around the world and, the West, the British government, can't be responsible for all of them, but there's, there's one particular case of Iraq, where we've already gone to war, to, in the cause of democracy and freedom, and I don't believe that when Saddam offends again as he does day by day, we can turn a blind eye. We can turn a blind eye to some of it, but the point is always reached when he goes too far, and intervention is required, usually only in the form of American attacks by aircraft on his offences in the em, areas where he's not supposed to penetrate. Yes, would it be a possibility, perhaps, that Sir Edward Heath, might try to get the other European hostages out? His success rate with er, British hostages is outstanding isn't it? Well Ted is a very, er, experienced operator. He's always had his heart in, in diplomacy and he's got the kind of authority you need for this. That is, he's an ex-prime minister, who can face er, Saddam across the table, you know, on equal terms. At the same time he has no political authority, er, representing as it were the British government, he's just an individual of stature, and he's got the time and the energy to do it. I don't think that he could look after other countries, although the same sort of precedent could no doubt apply for example, the former French prime minister, there's probably quite a few of them around, could be found to go to Yes Iraq, and do the same kind of negotiation. The danger is that er, Saddam exploits this er, more and more, and seeks to try and get sanctions overturned. Well, that won't happen. But I think that from, er, Sir Edward's point of view, he has done jolly well, and er, the families have already expressed their great gratitude to him. Well if I may, er, coin one of your phrases, well done Ted. Thank you David, very much indeed. David Spannier, our diplomatic correspondent, giving us an expert's eye view of the whys and wherefores of the release of the three British hostages, who happily will be home very, very shortly. Seventeen minutes past seven. I thought for a minute, he said down to Mr Blobby didn't you? Well, he keeps calling me Mr Robbie, because, for some reason, he thinks I resemble this silly character. Yes I can't understand why. You are, you are, perhaps you are, you, you're a little, two or three pounds over your fighting weight for a man of your height, but still, I know, I should be eight foot six, but, I'm working on it We had enough of Blobby yesterday, without any mention of him on the programme again. Right, it's twenty minutes past seven. We can't afford modern technology now, we've got one of these old wind-up gramophones. Right, nevertheless, not withstanding, etcetera. In five minutes, it'll be the Dougie Down Under competition, thanks to QUANTAS, Australia's national airline. I'm sure most people know by know, that er this show will be coming to you live from Sydney, Australia, for a whole week to mark Australia Day at the end of January, and er the interesting thing from your point of view, is that we are looking for two couples, can be a husband and wife, er mother and daughter, father and son, any combination really, just a couple of friends. We're looking for two couples to come to Australia with us and to act as roving reporters. What you do, is er, travel around the country, to selected spots, phone into me, on the programme live, and tell me what you've been doing, what you've been seeing. All expenses paid, I need hardly add, and of course, this will mean that should you er, get through to the final, you will need to do an audition, live on air, in the day or two before Christmas. More of that later, you must also have a valid passport, and you must be free to travel in the last two weeks of January. Okay. So in five minutes, I'll ask you a question, and that could result in you're going next month with Dougie Down Under, thanks to QUANTAS, Australia's national airline. Seven twenty two. Leslie of Finsbury. Good morning Leslie. Er, Good morning, Douglas. Em, much earlier you was on about this erm, erm, television licences, er, be it,an another extra twenty pound being added to any, another set over the top of what you've got. Yes I just want to explain very quickly for people who don't know what we're talking about, Leslie, because a lot of people join us by the minute, er, MPs on the Commons' Heritage Committee, have said, they think it's a very good idea, that if you have more than one telly, you should pay twenty pounds for the second one, and who knows, twenty pounds for the third, and twenty pounds extra for the fourth. What do you feel? Well, this is what I'm, what I'm on about, this proposal. I, I assume it's just a proposal at the moment? But,i is it Yes, it is gonna a be across the board? Or er, just affecting households or is there a special dispensation for hotels, hospitals, commercials, er, commercial establishments, Crown property, Buckingham Palace, and any of the Royal homes, go right through, you can go right through the card? Well, I think the idea is, that certainly large hotels could afford to pay a bigger collective bill than they're paying at the moment. And er, er a lot of people I think, would agree with that. Wouldn't you? Well, they appear to have, er, er I mean they have televisions in every room, and, and, and they, and they, and they put their prices up accordingly, er en suite, and all this business, but er with the television, Erm I mean, they're, they're, actually, they're creaming it off at the moment. Yeah, I mean, have you got more than one telly? Sorry? Have you got more than one? No, I live on my own, I got, I've got one little television in my own sort of bedsitter. So, er, would you think it's a good idea maybe to er, to, to charge people twenty pounds extra for each telly? Well, er, it's all according to whether they can afford it in the first instance, secondly, is it gonna be across the board? Yes. I mean, you can't just hammer households, and leave them, I mean, even, even, even like er ju ju the judiciary, the courts, they've all got televisions in their pl I mean surely, and that's Crown property, by the way. I understand that they don't pay any television licences at all. Okay Leslie, thank you, a lot of calls coming through on this one. Inge, from Wembley. Good morning Inge. Morning, Dougie. Er, first of all, good luck for next week Oh, thank you. and er, do you know, I've got so many things to say, erm, first of all to do with er, erm, guests at Christmas. You know, one must remember there are so many lonely people, and Christmas is the worst time of the year. Yes. The other thing is television licence. Now, I must say that I see there is a point of charging for every television set, erm, I don't have any er, er objection to that, but one rider, that senior citizens should be helped. Yes, I think this is probably the idea behind the thinking, really. That those who are not really able to pay, who are genuinely hit very hard by the current eighty three pounds, isn't it for a colour television licence, I think? Er, they would be helped, I think, by this and er, I think if that were to be the case, then I'd be wholeheartedly behind it. Yes, I think that, I think that would be fair, but er for instance, hotels, establishments, they should of course , pay much more. Inge, thank you very much indeed. A lot of calls coming through on this. We'll take as many as we can er, during the programme. It's now seven twenty six. Well here go, with the Dougie Down Under competition, thanks to QUANTAS, Australia's national airline. Two couples must win the all expenses paid trip to Australia with me, when the Breakfast Call comes live from Sydney, at the end of January. Now, we've had four questions already this week, if you missed any of them, we will be repeating them next week, so you won't miss out. But now, here's the final question Well Mr , what can we do for you today? Busy today is it not? we just don't believe it. about an hour I've been out there. Oh aye. I can believe it. Due a line today are you? Yes Doctor. I've been sitting here since two o'clock my two o'clock cup of coffee. Not very funny Doctor. I wasn't expecting you'd be that busy just now. Oh. Holidays. Never come at holiday weekend. Mhm. Always the same, before the Christmas, before New Year. It doesn't matter. I mean you can go up on the rest of the week, but the day before the holiday and the day after the holiday the Closed on Monday? Aye. Well you'll get a day off there eh? Or do you? Are you on call-out work? No. I've just got a big case full of paperwork to do when I get There's no rest ? Ah no. Keeps me out of mischief. I'll just be betting horses or chasing women or something like that. Oh you'd better do the last one Doctor it saves you money. If you bet on horses or drink then it cost you money. And that's not . Oh I don't know. I don't know. It's running. And I've placed it in a strategic position. Where it can pick up everybody's conversation. Yeah. Right? But er You're not supposed to s What? This is when you go dumb. No, you don't have to worry about that. We No, I say you don't, you do. You go dumb when you er when they switch on a I think it ought to be made clear that the the voices that you can hear, or will be hearing in the next half an hour or so will be that of the television. Yeah well that's a fact of life. She she has to make out a form, with erm what was happening at the time and everything. The duration and all that type of . But so far she's managed to record five minutes of conversation between me and her. So and she's got twenty tapes C nineties to do . What was this tape? It wasn't bedroom er ? No no this was just just some conversation we had during the day. Oh. But if I can leave it running and it runs out it will suit me down to the ground. There you go Dennis. Eyes down for a full house. Cocked that up properly. That's Loretta Swit. Have to get your eye in won't you, on this? Yeah. that one. Well I couldn't go to the bottom of the table because of the Eeeuk! Bit like pot black really isn't it? Clink Yeah. clink clink. conversation off this. Oh dear Ooh, Oh I'm sorry. I didn't realize you . Erm, I broke so you . Yeeuk. That's all they'll get isn't it? That's all they're gonna here, eeeuk. Oh well, that's broken the duck anyway. There was too much power on that one. I definitely haven't got the action . Definitely erm what I was trying to do was not do what I've been doing which is to jerk . Yeah. What are you making? Thing is I had some wool and I had the thing. And I tried to do a pattern but it sent all my eyes crazy counting these Yeah. holes. So I'm just erm mixing up the colours that will go. ? Yeah. Choice Almost. Not good enough though. Put it up then. Oh yeah. Yeeeuk. Pink. Mark it. Mm Probably happy with that Dennis. You got one didn't you? Don't think they're getting their value for money off this tape. What do you reckon? Do you want a tea or a coffee? Sorry? Do you want a tea or a coffee? Cup of tea please. I've just been filling in my books and reading all about it. I rang mum up. Mm? And said to her about erm putting the kids to bed. Mm. And said we'll try and get something sorted out before you babysit on the nineteenth. I said we didn't do too bad. I said Ben was wet but I didn't, his bed wasn't, so god knows Is it a marketing exercise for the Sony Walkman really? Sorry? Is it a marketing exercise for this? I don't know. Oh I've just been listening to your conversation with Dennis and Iris. Yeah? Was it any good? Mm clank, click pheew clank click . I couldn't understand what you you were saying to Iris though. Couldn't you? No. Oh well Well you, all I heard was something about her sorting out some wool and She was doing a tapestry thing. I'm a little bit erm concerned with our Darrell. Yeah oh I think he's just peed off with his father. or Yeah but it just st strikes me he's losing perspective of who's doing what for who. I appreciate that the long term we gain as far as that property, yeah? Yeah. But the short term, he is not making us rich is he? Not by doing it the speed he's doing it. If he'd have taken his time and he'd have got himself some more work yeah? Yeah. Well I think he, it's just Friday night and he's coming up here tomorrow morning. Is he, why? Oh, I just said do we see you over the weekend Mm. and he says he's coming up tomorrow morning and erm but he's got places to go and people, you know how he says it, places to go people to see tomorrow afternoon and Sunday. I asked him if he was going on his boat and he said no. No, he's put it in his winter mooring hasn't he? No idea. Fair weather sailor Jim. Despite all the rum bum baccy stuff. I think it's just Friday night and he's yeah, basically. I don't think Billy's telling him enough to be honest. Why? I just don't. What, he knows something's happened . But he doesn't know what it is. He doesn't seem to be involved in that many discussions about the company does he? Or what's happening. I mean he was moaning about erm or those trade accounts weren't he? Mm. well it's not for me to say. I don't know anything more about this business than he does. Oh no. go as far as to say we probably know less about what's going on than he does. Do we? Oh. Such is life. I had a word with Steph on the phone. Oh? She's getting fat. Yeah. She goes to hospital on Thursday. Eighteen week appointment. She's had another scan. Got to work on Sunday. They're gonna work from nine thirty till four thirty this Sunday. Mm. And then every Sunday up to Christmas. And if the trading's good enough they're gonna carry it on. So how that will go with the Sun Sunday laws I don't know. I'm waiting for Tesco's to foreclose on what they said they were gonna do. And what's that then? Well they're supposed to be opening on Sundays but didn't Texas and all those get fined last year? Mhm. For opening on Sundays? Yeah but because there's a European Court ruling outstanding local authorities aren't gonna take them to court. Oh. Because the shop can just put an injunction on them, stopping them taking it any further. Or they can sue them for loss of income. Uhuh. Yeah? Are you having this bath? Yeah. Are you happy about this car situation? Yeah. You sure? Yeah. It's work I'm concerned with. Why? enough done. You've got Monday haven't you? You've got Monday haven't you? Sorry? You've got all day Monday. Yeah but I need to do some typing. I'm trying to think how the fuck I'm gonna conduct this meeting with half the company round the table. Yeah. How I'm gonna run it. Well how many's gonna be at this meeting? About twelve I think. Including Jeff? Jeff, Fred. Brian who's their manager of operations. Jo? No. Oh! She's not getting a look in? Sorry? She's not getting a look in? Not so far. Ha ha, I bet she winkles her way in if there's a free lunch going. There isn't a free lunch on it, it's company internal software. Oh. Do you want mum to come to Argos with me tomorrow morning? Why? Well she isn't, I don't think she's doing anything tomorrow morning. Are you asking me? Why are you asking me? Cos you said you'd come to Argos with me. I said I'd stay here with the kids. Oh is that what's the plan of action? Yeah. Sorry. Right. Okay. Erm, I said I'd try and get over and see Steph one day next week. Sorry? I said I'd try and see Steph one day next week and take her some maternity clothes and erm I'll wash some of these baby things. If not I've only got to put them up in the attic and bring them down in three month's time. So I might as well take them over there and get rid of them. She said she don't mind having the stuff in the house. Those new twenty pound notes frighten me. Everyone's . Sorry I asked. You have ain't you? Twice. Yeah I was lucky. I some meat and christmas pudding and brandy butter. I said I've got some boring people coming on Sunday for lunch. So, oh they're vegetarians oh one, no the wife is vegetarian, she's a real mare . I mean I don't mi the husband's alright the husband's alright. But she's really pathetic. And erm I got the vegetarian cookbook out this morning so Rob said what you looking at that for? So I said well Janet's a vegetarian I said, I can't give us lot roast lamb and give her you know. Said I've gotta do her something a bit decent. Said I know what to give her he said ever so excited. So I said ooh I said, what's that? He said Birds Eye frozen dinners. He said you can I said you can't do that. But she she ate, the only meat she eats is chicken. She's vegetarian but she eats chicken. see what I I might She isn't a proper vegetarian then is she? do something with that tomorrow and freeze it and then reheat it, give it on Sunday for her. She isn't a proper vegetarian then? Oh no! Too pathetic to do anything properly. Yeah that's her. I remember her now Well I'm not gonna laugh when she comes up here am I? No. No Well no it was the way you said the jumper. No I said jumper. Oh I see. . Oh that's nice. Will that be okay? Yeah. Something like that? I want it quite Yeah do, do you want in chocolate and vanilla? Yes please. Right. Well I do, I do them all, try and do them all a bit different but it'll be something on that line. It's nice innit?next one? No there's enough . No, it's just literally sponge and buttercream. It's all yours. Thank you. Oh it's it it's on a it's on erm it's on a plate so you er I don't mind I'm, you know I don't mind not getting it back for the next month. Well you won't get it back till next week. I'm not I I I You don't want me to take all this now? No, I I'm not no, I've got enough plates to keep me going. just have to wash an extra one out. Yeah well she Sure you'll have enough for Sunday? Yeah well she might have a paper one. Not really, no. I've just got a bag of crisps. I'll go. Go on! No! I Come on then! She's a worrier. Why, what's the matter with her? She Why? I don't know. Is she like that at home? She's obviously scared. I thought I thought if you spend time my kids. . I put the two of them are sleeping together in the same room and the other one's in, we've put her back in with us. When if one wakes up then we've got three up there I said to Robert no way. if one of the eldest wakes up got to go back to bed. Er Robert said Charlotte who's two and a half she's always been pretty but erm Robert said right, mother's babysitting on the nineteenth so organize I I've been getting them into bed and then I've gave them a little bit of milk or whatever they want and then they've had toast with jam on. When they've had that I say right you're going to bed now . Well we had to drag them down the hall . The first night I took them to bed at quarter past seven. Literally quarter past eight when the I mean oh god knows how many times I went in there. But I didn't lose my rag, I was in the right mood to deal with it . So at quarter past eight I said right I said go to bed said gonna turn that light out . Saturday night I put them to bed erm they went to bed at half seven Saturday night. But I actually got . So then Sunday night erm we was there for twenty minutes for ten minutes. Oh no. So I better now. Mind you last Monday when I got home they was all up. They was all in bed it was only Joseph who was up when I come out but he was nearly gone up. Rob said within twenty minutes of you gone, he said they was all up. Oh dear. It's quite a good idea though. Cos I say that, that makes the money for the christmas party. the raffles I want they've got some prizes . Yeah. Your Barry's in here. Oh right. Cos I said I think I should have Oh my god. . I said Gillian you see. she said, has she them? I said Who was that? Mrs , the funny, oh no I think that was Mrs erm not Mrs , what's the other one? Can't remember . Mrs . ! Short hair. Grey hair. Straight, straight short hair. Always Quite tall . Never wears anything jazzy. Very plainly dressed. Rather tall and she's very Mind you she's French she's taught French Yeah. tell me what they were singing? Who? Wheels on the bus. Oh wheels on the bus that was. on the bus goes swish swish swish. yeah Charlotte sings that bit. Pete's starting to sing kind of mumbling the first two lines and all of a sudden she goes on christmas day . I dread to think what Ben's gonna be like on chr christmas. Why? Well he's so hyped up now. I know, all the shops have got father christmas. Tommy goes shop father christmas father christmas Well this is it. Yeah. is he coming tonight? No! He's so hyped up it's unbelievable. Three twenty then she started shooting off number one eight six. Green one eight six. I've got it the other way round look. all day long something Yeah. beep beep all day long . Dark blue nine seven o. Nine seven o on the blue. Eleven. Ben's already tried to get one of his christmas presents, to get it out the box. Which one? Well I mean I'd bought stuff they'd all share. And this is a sort of erm a car station. On the yellow number two eight two. What? A sort of a car station thing. You go up on it and it's Mr Chuff So I got him that. I got Charlotte the Mr Loops Yellow Bus. It's got all little people inside it. What, the toy bus? Yeah, that one. Is it any good? Well I ain't got it out the box yet. I ain't had ch I mean I haven't had the opportunity to erm have a look at it yet. And Joseph I got a couple of toys for as well. Yeah. Well I might be going out, going to Pet On the red number two eight six. going to Peterborough to erm Two eight six on the red. get myself something to wear if I don't hurry up and if I don't hurry up and get something. Yeah. So erm I might have to go to Peterborough yet on that day and get myself kitted out. Well I've looked round Wisbech and I've looked round Lynn. There's absolutely nothing. Evening dress . I mean either that or they're right up to your backside, you know, and I mean pink number four five five . He just kicked the bucket. Do you reckon that'll ? No that's that's well sellotaped up look. Yeah. Blue nine four five. Nine four five on the blue. Did you see anything for dad, for ? That's what I say. Was that jumper alright? He ain't tried it on yet. Come in, we had tea then he went out again. Well what else is it ? Tea and biscuits or tea and sugar Back on blue number eight six seven. Blue eight six seven. I wouldn't have it, she's supposed to be spending it tonight. Well I think I could make twenty quid go further than that. Well look better should I say. Look better. his cake. Pink four three three. Four double three on pink. Well what's in that flat box? Has anyone discovered yet? Well whatever it is no-one don't seem to want it. On the yellow number three five six. Three five six on yellow. I honked up this morning . Pardon? I honked up this morning . Rob made me a cup of coffee and erm I forgot it had been standing there and er I went to take a mouthful course I got a mouth full of skin didn't I? Ugh. I thought now what do I do? Do I swallow it or do I, and I stood there debating over that was it, I went wheeuuu. I thought well that's made up my mind for me . Oh god it was gross. I said to Rob I said well I'm a couple of pounds lighter. He said why, cos I've just honked up. He said you're not are you? I said no I had that bloody cup of coffee you made . On the white now six two two. Six double two on white. Well that black that black . Well how much are those tin of Cadbury fingers? Well I ain't seen nothing like that on there have you? That's it. Ten ten pound box of Quality Street Yeah. at least that's something worth having. Precisely. Right it's on the white number six two three. Six two three on the white. Oh god well it can't be anything that exciting then can it? Yeah. The last one on the green number eight four o. Eight four o on the green. No nothing folks. Right, let me turn the cake round. Think it's used to you in that I don't know what , I don't tell Ron, well he knows how I felt cos I said course I'm , god he said, is that a performance, he said I haven't sat on your knee for ages, I said no I just feel like it , before we went out and er, I said well I don't think there's anything the matter do you, I said with him back there saying make sure Mr Hudson has the notes, and he said no, he said, he said he wouldn't leave it seven months he said No if he thought there was something up he would of sent you for an x-ray, or Mm . a blood test he said I should think what's happened, that guy who's seen you, has, I, cos I said it was his understudy, yeah, cos he said Wendy had seen Mr Hudson so obviously the notes weren't in there were they? No You see, and, I, I now I've handled it a little bit better, but I couldn't focus much at all this morning. Huh, I think I had such a good night,you know what you've bloody well done he said you've got up he said before you was ready he said, you knew you wanted to get on he said, and you've got up he said with the intentions he said, you had them bloody cakes he said before you had breakfast, well I had to with her coming But did you know that erm, you was having Emma? No she went, Well next time she does that to you, you're out to meet somebody I would have thought if she would have sat in the chair, I mean well she couldn't go the week aha I don't young enough yeah,about a month ago she just peed of somewhere and some , I don't know, she's alright, I said yes she'll be alright, I said I'm going to start cooking so she said I got to take these Heather, I said well they'll travel better in there, your father said you know Jane he said if you'd given her a hand Yeah yeah, she ain't got a minute has she? I said I want them back today and I said erm this morning cos I said er I want them to put my cakes in, oh she said, oh, well are you going anywhere? So I said no, so I'd better get on with my cooking, so she said oh she said done it on pur colour co-ordinated, I'm a bit more colour co-ordinated than that I was yesterday I had a You're doing very well I had a red jumper, but this was a, to be a honest this was a bit grubby down the front so it meant today meeting last night I ain't got a jacket with me, cold innit? I think it's I think it's cold innit? I've Ron's well chuffed with this car Yeah. went down to Horsham yesterday and erm went down there and came back filled it up with petrol, and it worked out to five quid No said we would get a mile B M W Oh well Small world then, life's I mean erm, child seat, there was one child seat in that was strapped to the and erm there was erm the, the other car seats in the front of the not strapped in I had to hurry up and put them in the back, cos I was running a bit late I was running a bit late anyway. I was six , I could have got another four little ones, I'd used like and I thought well er I perhaps get us you see and you Think about that. Raffle tickets Gilly, have you planned your conservative raffle tickets? Yes, I've got them in my bag. I've said to Jay I don't know whether she don't want me to help her, I don't know, I, this is the second time I've said to her, and she said oh I don't know where they are, and I ain't gonna ask her no more, if they get there they get there and if they don't No, I've put mine , put mine in the envelope so will you hand them in on Saturday? I'll tell Ang push them through the door so they can get I thought you might stand a better chance of winning if there weren't enough votes. I won last year Yeah even if it was just So er, but I thought, Gemma's got if you can come er Joseph in front I bought, I bought his pushchair in. Oh, then I can just go up to Co-Op I thought , oh I thought I'd go into erm I'd go to the bank on my way to this afternoon. Alright. How about that for an idea? Yeah. There's more than five minutes left. So which, which car park would you want to go in, the Rainbow on the roundabout going Why? well they don't have do they? Oh so it's the yeah and you No. and then if you two let er with Charlotte Caroline, yeah. Caroline. Oh, it's, it's Westgate. Yeah but you see it says Co-Op you see. Oh I'm thinking of Rainbow why am I thinking of Rainbow, is that Co-Op as well? Yeah. Oh well, that's where I'm getting right confused. at the top yeah well as long as we get to school for half past, I mean but she'd got a nice little cauliflower and, I think she'd got a carton some sort of . George Benson Yeah I did notice well at least we've got a keep an eye on . That's what I thought, I'd bring the pushchair in, so we don't there . A lot to fiddle with, but you know we'll use. poor Derek, I mean I don't know whether Derek's away,didn't bother to come up on, if if he didn't bother to come Friday well he's still laying on the bench, but if it's Jack you see, the other day she well give did you ask him, I said no I don't mention it till Friday to him and then when I get the next one I'll say well is it this week's or last week's? Yeah. I don't want him to say well she didn't come round, she didn't ask me for the money, I mean I haven't ask him for the money and, he'd like to on a Friday, when one come up, when the next one comes you can you? I thought going out tomorrow, so I said to Bob, Well you know what a great big appreciate your trip tomorrow won't you? No wonder you That's right, it's just that I worked, I think, yesterday I couldn't get into erm, I just couldn't get into and yesterday I must admit I felt really rough and erm, I thought at three o'clock I was going to have to ring Iris, cos I knew you were still out you see and at three o'clock I thought I was going to have to ring Iris er just to come in cos I can't like your head was my stomach was churning over, it wasn't till, soon as I get some food in front of me oh I get , you see I didn't feel too cracking in the morning and I thought well there's lots of stomach bugs going about and I thought well I'm having one of them, and I didn't know what I fancied for lunch and I cooked the kiddies theirs, they had fish and what have you, and erm, I thought well what can I have,I thought I what, I thought I got a little tin of salmon there, so I thought right I'll have a salmon sandwich and I had that and believe me I felt, by three o'clock I could see myself picking me up off the floor, I only got spots before my eyes as such, but, I just had, I had four, five cups of water, I didn't drink any tea, and I wish then, well I don't know whether I could have felt any worse when I had the sandwich or not to be honest. Your father said er David was poor yesterday, Monday, he kept coming over sick. But, I felt, I know, at one point I really thought I was going to have to ring Iris to come and just sit with the kiddies, but I thought well if I drop down what the hell, devil this house gonna look like in, with three of them let loose in. But do you feel better today? Yeah I feel one hundred per cent better Are you No, I was, I was, came over all, I didn't feel right when I got up in the morning, I'll try and park outside Westgate, I didn't feel right when I got up in the morning, Kelly get round, yes I can go and oh find Robert erm, yeah I didn't feel right in the morning, but as soon as the day went on as soon as I had this salmon salad, sandwich, and Rob said to me well you sure it wasn't that, cos he said sometimes that salmon could make people feel a bit, nothing wrong with that, it's just a tin of salmon, you know. Yeah, but I mean if you were like that in the morning well its worse Anyway it's doing feel hundred per cent worse you know but erm I got the, I had quite and when you come I was, I was playing peepo with my jumper weren't I? When you came to door I was pulling, pulling the head Well I was coming didn't I? Yeah, yeah well what time was that? Ooh, Fourish? Just after that. Erm well just as you come, that's the best I felt all afternoon and I, all I was doing was playing peepo with them through me jumper, cos I games Where's he there going? No he's chin wagging to someone well I'll drop you off here, well that's not a lot of good is it? Cos you won't know where I've parked. But no, but I can have a Meet me outside Frank's, alright, I'll drive round and park outside Frank's Mm, mm. If I'm not parked out, if there's, there's anyone going about I won't park out, erm if I haven't parked where that silver car is Mm. just can you nip in and get me a pound and a half of liver? Yes. And can you have a look at the price of Mr or someone or other circus, it's Mr Toots or Mr Loots or Right turtles or, leave, leave her in here nan You sure? yeah, yeah She can come No leave her in here. ok Hello Is hello hello, you ooh, oh she's gone. hello Yeah nanny's gone look. hello, hello Yeah we'll go with nanny in a moment lovely. Nanny's not going without you, we're just going to get in another car park, right but nanny's got to nip in that shop quickly cos look, we're late picking Ben up, we've only got ten minutes and we've got to be at, be at the nursery, alright, and nanny's gone into that shop and we're now gonna drive round the other side of that, that square and then erm, nanny will be back, alright? Right lets turn of this machine for five minutes. But it's still, it's still cheaper in Argos yeah? It's cheaper at twenty six ninety nine, I had to ask about that cos I couldn't see it It's Mr something is it flying circus or I don't know I said a circus one you see and er Yeah Hello, hello, hello I know, she's eating a She thinks she's going No, Charlotte Oh erm let me slow down this bit, erm no it's twen , oh it is twenty six ninety nine anywhere else, I've seen it but in Argos,Wi , well William looked in the catalogue on Tuesday for me, but he said it was nineteen ninety nine in Argos Yeah. but erm, had a little with the children's Christmas presents Who? Was it Monday, no it was yesterday, I was in the loo and I could hear this paper being ripped and I thought oh they've got one of my club catalogues, I didn't think any more of it and then I could hear Joseph going weee,I thought what the devil's he got, so went out, Joseph has got the flying circus bus that was meant for Charlotte and him and, Brenda and Charlotte was sharing the, the, garage thing that I've brought so I thought well now it's out, well they're not going to keep all that till I said to him whatever is Father Christmas going to say, I said he's supposed to be taking these away to bring I said er, what's Father Christmas gonna say?, no Ben forget, so I thought while they're out I could see Joseph's playing a lot, way with this bus thing, he was having a whale of a time, he thought that was great, so I said to Charlotte I said do you like that bus? Cos that was meant for her you see, she said no, I want the house, she meant the garage, so I said don't you like the bus then Charlotte, no, bus for Joseph, bus for the baby, so I thought well that's decided it then now I, she, she better have Mr Toot and Don't make a lot of difference really does it? You see all when it's all the figures all erm sit er all the same yeah things you see, so erm, I thought right well that's it Ben can have the garage, I'll go and buy her the flying circus, Joseph can have the bus and call it a day. Mm. You know, I mean they've still got a couple of books each and I've bought three Swing the swing and I've bought them a couple of wooden puzzles where you pick the bits up so, I thought well then I'll call it a day there, and that'll be that Well this is this is it Gilly cos I mean Oh you can keep going though totally over the top I thought well Joseph's was twelve ninety nine and Ben's was fourteen nineteen ninety nine and that's just tough that I've got you know, I can't get Charlotte's any cheaper than that, but, I mean they're not gonna know how much I've, they're not gonna say well you've got five pound more than what I have cos they're not of that age so, that's how I've left it, that's what I'm gonna do, I'll get her the circus and then they can swap them over and Joseph will be happy that he got something on wheels Yeah I said to Robert He has got something on wheels from us yeah, I said to Rob you can't keep buying them learning toys, they've gotta Yeah play as well haven't they? well that helps them as much really don't it? Yeah , so erm cos then I had the argument about putting them back in the box. Tell you what I've got, I keep getting, I, I shall think I'll have another one tonight, is a great big egg box Mm, well you see, these, these are big boxes on their own there, putting them in another one Yes, but I should you'd get one of those boxes in the end Do you think so? Well, those size of those boxes Yeah, yeah I've, I've got three of them now well I could do with, I could actually do with one cos little bits and pieces, but erm, course then when I've them in I do rather use the one, like me I'd like two, cos I've got one full of bits and pieces and the odds, odds and ends I keep Oh I've got, the one that I've emptied this morning . I think I found just the tiny Yeah So this I come up to that cow upstairs alright,alright Mm. you know er, I think I've got to get me eyes tested, cos this can make Well you said that months ago this, well this can make you feel, can't it? Mm, mm, I mean, its probably got to the st Sometimes I look its probably got to the stage where you want glasses all the time now, just you know erm Yeah I mean that doesn't help as well, I know Sainsbury's or Tesco's and you have to keep taking them off and putting them on Yes. that doesn't help cos your eyes are not having time to adjust erm without the glasses before you put them back on again . And I can't cope walking around in my reading glasses but I've got to Mm. when I want to look at prices. Pair of bi-focals or something. Oh my god. No, I meant the ones with the half moons in Yeah. or where they change half way down, so you haven't got to keep taking your glasses on and off Yeah, they are got Are they? I think bi-focals with the half brim bits So erm Which I thought well where's that all about the cake, other day, that three pound one, and then two of us went Oh god there must be a reason you know, they, they went well so I've got sixty of them, they take them with me tonight and they said would there be any cakes available for Saturday and I, I think and I nearly said to erm, well last year you reckon you couldn't sell cakes, but anyway I helped her Nan, nan, nan so, and er I said do you sell butterfly ones, and she said I was going to have a go at making them, but she said I can't make them like you, Aha I thought well I ain't It involves , it involves too much work, that's why she can't do them like you. Christmas fillers you see, so I, she, cos I've, I'm going to make a couple of fruit cakes, I said well I was going to bring in a couple of fruit cakes and said if you need them not, if not I said I'll take them back I thought no way is Sue gonna eat them, eat cakes like she did last year, or year before Yeah. she only had the bloody cheek to charge us last year for a turkey wrong, but I mean I did get that sorted out afterwards. So are you helping with the catering side or are you running a cake stall? I can't run a cake stall Gilly cos when I got a book a someone erm wants to Oh yeah That's right, oh say ya, nay, or and er, so I Well as you said last year they really wanted something for nothing, for it Yeah , so what I'm doing, I'll these, gonna make about a hundred or one bit or a couple of bits and some butterfly cakes and the cakes and plates and cling film, charge them a quid, eight for a pound Mm and that, that would be You're not telling me this Council driver can't go any quicker cos he'll try to get back to before, before twelve o'clock I can't twelve o'clock dinner. No we had a reasonably good dinner and, and we didn't want no tea when we come home, this could have been some of it cos all I had then when we did about seven o'clock when we decided we'd have a bowl of soup, erm,we stuffed ourselves, we had toast and breakfast erm, we had one or two sweets in the hospital, er while we were waiting and then er, we went to Asda and then we got er er pie, chips and peas, hot actually, bread roll and butter, for one ninety nine, I wasn't half pleased, well that just suit us cos it, we would have gone somewhere else and had coffee and a cake it would of cost you, one fifty each Oh yeah so erm, we decided that we'd have this fish and chips before we got going,cos it we didn't eat, you know, an awful lot yesterday so, erm, last night when we came home I looked at this Argos ticket which I couldn't find and I've, in that I've found what erm a Weight Watcher er menu, so I picked that out, so I've had erm don't know what you'll call it today, boiled egg and toast, eh bread and butter Get down Yeah, alright my love, just a minute. You'll have to come out this way because there's lots of cars on the road Oh, one, two, three be careful and walk Oh it's very pretty Yes, just a, yeah go on then off you go in the house in the gate. I don't know whether Wills is here or not. See if your little boyfriend is here hi up the stairs, hello Charlotte, love his nursery, hello Joseph Hello Kelly, what you got? He got Yeah, He's got his A bit of peace and quiet. Oh that's golly, on the shelf,here, you've got on your hair I'll make myself at home . Which is mine, which is mine? Over there. O K. clean your hair for you now? Yeah, he's got mousse on him Yeah I had to come to erm so I thought erm, I tried to ring you yesterday, your phone was out of order. Well, she's having a new one put on. Why we was paying the bill actually we paid to Sunday us connect us the following Friday Why? so I had it disconnected, had it disconnected and so I've asked for it to be re-connected, they can't do it until twenty seventh December Oh no and he's got to pay forty five quid to have it done. What did you have it cut off for? I didn't have it cut off, he did No, why, why did you have it cut off? I didn't want to talk to Oh, so it's alright with one but not with the other? Yeah. What's this? This is yours. Oh yes, I can see what you've done, I tried to ring you and it said erm out of order, cos I was ringing to say I'm coming to the bank this morning so I'll pop in for coffee. I thought god is it , three times up the A mask, want to put it on, want to put one on? No. Oh Chrissy, I use that where's your eyes oh , ooh, show mum, Gilly put one on? No, no, no You got a black eye? No, no they're all fighting fit and in the best of health, eh, Mum, I'm bored Where's your little gun?watching Play Bus and Hannah's asleep and A gun , a gun Pardon? Do you want to put this one on? I had Jehovah Witnesses round this morning. Oh that was nice for you, oh so you've had three visitors then that's lovely Yes, the end the end of that one It's a on the er Bloody hell he didn't stop to take You mean a black one? Yes, with all his gold and rings and is that real gold, he went berserk he didn't start mate, they, they tried to get on him. having him on Sure, bloody Goldilocks,everywhere So I haven't got to pick them up from nursery today, Jayne's picking them up. Oh that's all right So erm, I thought right yeah go and have a coffee. I rang up Mandy yesterday Oh yeah, how is she? who was rather sarcastic, sarcastic, I said to her erm, oh you're still alive then, as if to say you haven't rang me rang you . What she say? Yes she said we're going out to a dinner party tonight, I thought golly Here we go She's fallen I think straight on the face. Come on let's have a look. There we go, There we are all done, all done. how did you get on with Erm, he was, on the first and second day, he was second in class and sixty fifth over all and then he was, the next day he was sec still second in class and fifty fifth over all and then once the prop shaft or something's broken, yeah I've got a spare one, but the car came back in one bit so erm, he's got an interview with T V S next week I think or the week after because erm when Rob lent him something that erm, did his, did a lot of it's nothing to do with erm, they sponsored him two thousand pounds Oh good See you later so er , mind how you go bye, so erm, he's got an interview with erm T V S and these two guys that erm sponsored him for it Brilliant and er, in a,and then Top Gear they want to do an interview with him for er, erm racing for the disabled. Do they? Yes, so he's really bully for him. getting into it. Cos I've watch it,recor record it a couple of times, but I didn't realize they each had different days. Yeah. there look, it's my fork, stop biting my nails. Pardon? Stop biting my nails. You have? Yeah, yeah,. Will see What, where you going to go? Well I You on your own or with No, me and Derek Oh I think he's great as that, I think he He's really quiet actually after his wife, I said to Ron when erm before we come I said, erm, I said you realize I said that you gonna be under pressure really cos Why? alright he's met you for five minutes but he's come here I said this gang of children, I said the poor bugger's not going to know what hit him I said alright if it's just for Sally's three I said he's gonna be, he's not gonna be relaxed I said I know that for a fact I said I know what it was like when I used to go and visit your people when I was Yeah, yeah . so I know he's not gonna be relaxed but, but after you went erm when Rob come home he said well he said what time did the party break up? I said oh just when it got dark really I said we're having it down the house, I said erm drank more port I said every time we went to the loo they filled up my glass he said eh, what do you think Gill? I said I thought he was a right in fact I've never seen Sally like it before I said I felt quite really No, but he seemed to be great, he said, he said well he said to, to me he said she's with the real thing and she wants to go for it But he said all he did was people he'd met quite a few times now, they say that you know like cos he's very funny, he comes out with me, god Sally what's the matter with you, you've been drinking or something, I said no, that's how he is he's not Yeah himself. No, I think he's, I said to Robert I've got quite a good streak cos I've never seen Sally We are competitive I know that more with someone than it should be like I know what it should be like but I I know we have people round here for actual . Everywhere I go like he follows me know what I mean, I'm sitting up there at one stage and he, he'd spend a day sort of curls, curls up and cuddles me. That's what it should be like Sally He goes to bed sometimes at eight o'clock I don't wish to know that. No, no, he lays there talking to his wine and stuff you know, it's really That's what, that's what is missing out of Colin and I, Colin and I Mm was conversation, we just didn't talk at all Talk about it that's right I mean when, when you ask which position you want, you know, you think god, you know, and after five years of marriage you think well have we tried everything, yeah five years of marriage and three children you know, it gets better every day. Mm oh I'm pleased about that, I'm just waiting for the wedding bells, I said to Robert I said if they can't get any one to witness it, I said we'll be there,, he said, well you I said what do you mean? He said you're the one who kept saying go for it Go for it yeah he said but don't wait he said I've only got you to blame and he did What you doing on Saturday night? Oh we've got, I don't think we've got anything on Saturday night, erm, Sunday that we got, Graham, Graham and Janet and for lunch, mum says why do you why do you invite them, I says well, I said well you know Obliged to. it's that sort of time of the year when you have all sorts of people there, but I mean she's such, so pathetic, words gonna come over for lunch, I mean we have them over every year sort of Christmas time Yeah although we never get invited back darling we never get invited back you know, I think erm, We will have you round here, we're thinking of having a party, erm, like an evening party. Can't, erm Rob's do, erm you know what we've got to get to this year? Erm Well I'll tell you, Christmas party you know it's really I think we will have one. We toyed with the idea of having one on the twenty first of this month, but if we did, but now that we've got someone interested in the house Yeah erm, I don't think we will, I think we'll wait erm wait for New Year, when everyone's finished partying. Yeah Make it an engagement party Sally. Oh Come on, I'm getting right excited about this yeah,. No we've got them coming over on Sunday and she said oh don't do anything special just do sandwiches , oh you invite them over for Sunday lunch, cos she's a vegetarian, except she eats chicken and vegetarian that eats a chicken Oh no not a vegetarian I think it's, I said to Robert it's just an excuse to have chicken every Sunday for lunch so that they can save some money, you know, Yeah, more than likely so I've decided I'm going to do erm something called Sunshine Chicken, which is just chicken e , chicken casserole, a bit different, she doesn't drink alcohol so I can't do anything in wine, erm so I'm doing that, I'm doing four portions of chicken of that cos the daughter eats chicken, erm take that off and I'm doing What you got for Christmas Day? sausage meat loaf with bacon and bits and pieces Cor lovely jacket potato What instead of just doing yeah, erm, what else am I doing? Oh cruel dude Erm, veg, vegetable curry I'm doing, there's something else in the savoury line, there is four things in the savoury Something that went with salad what was that? We're going to a party on Saturday night it's my friends birthday party, see if I can get you an invite Erm, yeah just let me make sure I can get a baby sitter, it just depends what mum and dad are up to, I know they should have been out on Friday night Is your mum Mrs E ? No B Oh, cos there was a little leaflet over there. I won a bottle of wine on that yesterday Did you? Yes Good for you. Children had erm er craft erm stall and a cake stall to raise money for the Christmas party Father Christmas so it doesn't come out of Yeah and erm, Jayne presented me with a bottle of wine this morning when she took er a bottle of sherry Bottle of sherry yeah, yeah Croft as well you know, oh,we're away here . I've got quite into port though, I'd finished that bottle of port by Tuesday night Cor we drink port and brandy well I, I drink I'd gone off of it until we opened that one on Sunday when you came over and I'd finished it by Tuesday, I was getting quite hooked on it Yeah we usually and thought this is no good well we came up today Yeah yeah, who was on it today? What's today Thursday? Was it the bird? It was today was it? Was it, was it Speak properly, pancake She's going through a stage talk about cakey, cakey goes to it's all sort of pathetic, oh yes hello Joseph, and erm she says pardon,pardon, she said daddy. is that a pinafore? No it's shorts, culottes Is it? Yeah, Ooh, ooh, ooh. Hannah got to go to Victoria hospital on twenty second of January. Oh how's she getting on? Erm alright, she you're alright, aren't you now? I can see that this one's still not on his feet you obviously noticed, he'll walk about when you hold his hands Yeah he just won't go he just takes a, but he's fine heavy , yes I'll talk about you You know I am as well don't you? You've got a big tummy , you got a big tummy. Give it back to Charlotte, well let her play with it then. Why? Oh that clock's right I hope is it? Yes Oh that's alright it's twenty five to eleven as long as I've gone by, or I'm leaving here by eleven give me a half hour to get home. I go to Tesco's this afternoon I It's like old mother hubbard today, old mother hubbardy Oh Oh Chris goes on this weekend? Does he? Yeah. My god. there on Friday have one of these,should be on on Friday so there putting they was really impressed by that. I don't think it's that big and Dick came over the other day and erm he wait He wait till you get in there? yeah, and he went up the plot and he come back and he said cor you can have plenty old erm cold sheds that he could have got, I said what do you really think, I played a free hand, you mean mum and dad's hand Is it? made to look so small. Yeah it does actually. So if it was me walking his dog as he goes by he said we'll see what, he said we're rebuilding a new bungalow on the insurance claim . Why does their house, their house shakes Yeah and they've got some cracks in there Yeah, they're not on a are they? They own nothing, I mean, it's over a hundred years old, so it's just, it's like built on the soil Think about where probably out that way somewhere. Oh hope so, it'll be really good. Mm. Yeah move out that way Well . and what we doing now is London, London yesterday and you, you should have been at home today but he had to go back to London again so I didn't keep him very much, given up is it? No it's not Given up smoking? who Rob, why? He gave up yesterday no you have to laugh he Monday, he hasn't had one since Monday night. I've got and he made me feel right guilty yesterday I, I had to buy a packet about three o'clock, so I didn't have any until three o'clock and then talk to the cat and I thought no it's no good, Margaret I'll have to hide this packet up ooh does the cat understand you my love? me and my mother have erm arranged it all, she's invited us down there Oh god. Let them get on with it Sally. Yeah, I couldn't even fight the thought that she'd asked him at no what I mean. It really upset me, erm, but then Well it'll be nice for you and Greg to have Christmas on your own I know it'll be quiet, but We won't stay here true, that is what I mean you, you'll be able to go away Yeah I think that's the trouble with Christmas, I said to Rob, in a way, I said I hope when I get to mum and dad's age I won't expect my children to think oh god you got to go there for you know I said that I'd love to just once take the kids away and go somewhere Yeah for Christmas, but I mean erm, it's expected I mean they all come to ours anyway so, but erm I mean our, the more I think about it I think the main, we might even go to Germany to see my sister,so it might be next year, but I can't get Tony to talk at the moment, I don't know erm, Oh thank you sister's on Christmas Eve, she lives somewhere they've got this brilliant pub down there called the , Christmas Eve and then over to his mum and dad for Christmas Day, but I , I wouldn't want to stay here Oh they organized Christmas let them get on with it cor this is the first bit of peace and quiet Mm amazing what a sweet will do. Yeah. Yeah,you cheeky little monkey, oh what you mean here he's got a black eye? Mm Yeah, he dropped, he was playing kitchen table he dropped it, luckily it just caught the bottom of his eye I've been offered a job Gill Who by? You probably won't believe it Not Bernard, oh no, did they ever come back to you? No, Ian Mm, I thought they were on the way here, I saw loads of for sale signs but I didn't see any new ones This part of the conversation has been wiped off, it'll continue in a few minutes. You'll have to come out this way because there's lots of cars on the road Oh, one, two, three be careful and walk Oh it's very pretty Yes, just a, yeah go on then off you go in the house in the gate. I don't know whether Wills is here or not. See if your little boyfriend is here hi up the stairs, hello Charlotte, love his nursery, hello Joseph Hello Kelly, what you got? He got Mind you I can't talk, I looked in the mirror a couple of weeks ago and my eyes are, I mean are really they're having a rough time indeed Oh my eyes are really and my eyes under here were black and I Mine are most of the time and I thought god I've got to do something, I've looked in the mirror and I though Gill this is disgusting, you know, it really is It's horrible isn't it sometimes? So erm, I went out and I had my hair, oh I've had me hair permed again but you can't tell unless you put a brush through it though Got to get mine done again and erm, I went up to mum's and she's got a load of Unique make-up, and she said if there's anything in that bag you want it, you'd better have it, so I said I went through, and we did destroyed all mine and put it all in the , I mean lipsticks ten quid a time or whatever, seven quid a time, so I went through and Mary had a she got this moisture , oh I thought what does this mean, she said it's for removing lines, I thought right we'll have a sample this Yes so we put it under there and round here and everywhere and I went over to on Saturday and erm crumbs she said you look, you look really good,I thought What's it called? yeah it's erm,moisture sturgeon it's by Clinique Oh it's oh I don't know, this is just a sample pot, but er, it was one that she, if you buy, sometimes you're buying make up you get a freebie gift, thing, and it was, it was in one of those Alright, don't panic, here you are, quick, quick, quick, need some of that and er, she said my eyes really sparkled she said first time I've seen them sparkle for a long while so I was right chuffed about that. Mum. Hello, oh that's pretty Charlotte and Benjamin found their Christmas presents the other day. Did they? Yep I was, I was in the loo and erm they were, they went into the office and I could hear this rummaging of paper and I thought they've got a club book, I didn't think any more of it, and when I came out they got, both of them out of the boxes. Ben had got erm a Mr garage thing and I Does he as well? and I bought her but when I came out the loo he is playing with the bus going wheeee, he was having a great time with that, I looked at him and I said got to give that to Charlotte, no, no, I don't like it I want the house, meaning the garage, so I've gone out now and bought her a circus cos when I went, when Ben went to nursery school erm he wanted a box out of the break out of the office, I said no you're not, I said Father Christmas is going to come and collect that, I said he's gonna wrap them and I said he's gonna come and deliver it Oh dear no, no, no, I thought oh god I'm gonna have to get them out of the house Well we've had all this trauma about you know, cos I do you, where do you want the he said well don't see much of daddy or nan and granddad and nana and granddad said they moved in on Christmas Day stay here and Rachael and Steven wouldn't come up,stay here on Christmas Day, it's quite likely, quite likely to go with daddy he said but, in many ways I he said I know what we can do is when we send up the chimney we could put nanny's address, nanny's address on it, shall we? I said yeah ok. Well that's alright . We had a new battery put on the Jenny I did, I to it disconnected It's not on, I mean he is, it's as much to his advantage as yours, what if he was taken ill? I know, that's what I said, that's what got it And you need an emergency you, you gotta well, He's only recently started to take notice of Hannah like take her swimming and that on and since he found out that she's got a heart murmur and that's what it's like, cos he for tea on the way back, and then he bathed the children and put them to bed, and last night no, what he put them all in the bath again, put that down again No, it's , he er,he, erm, Charlotte can you get any more in your hand? You know, I mean, what you've come to stay the night? He put the boys in the bath last night, I think Sam accidentally kicked Hannah, or kicked Hannah I don't know I wasn't there, but he came flying down, really got to curb that child he said, I said I beg your pardon, he said you've got to curb that child kicking Hannah, I said if I'd seen him kick her , he said that well I'm not sure that he actually kicked her it might have been an accident Oh but you've got to curb him of that, I said make matters I said Dan get yourself down here now I said did either of you kick Danny? He said no, so I said don't lie to me yes you did, I said you just said you didn't know if he kicked her or not, and this argument went on, Danny ended up in tears and I ended up really angry so I said well I'll go down then, leaving all the kids screaming fuming, but he actually knocks on the door now . Oh Sunday it was really bad cos he had these people turn up for lunch and erm, said it's Sam arranged to come and collect him quarter to six and then we went up to Fore Gate for lunch and then we came back here and had erm we were all standing in the kitchen here, knock on the door, a walked in, I'd completely forgotten about it Oh no was standing near the washing machine,, Simon gave him a filthy look, I said look I apologize for I'd completely forgot that you were coming to collect he said I know I can see that, he hadn't really what with the kids all running around and, so quickly got them and er, I thought he got, did you bring your cheque round? He said no I've forgot about it sorry, no I completely forgot about it sorry I'll bring it round later and give it, he posted it And he's the one who sent it. What he's, I bet what he doesn't like about it is that you're not running back to him saying look Simon come back to me I need you and it Oh Wynne my supposed friend fixed him up and . Oh Looking at them next stage, distribution centre then are we? Yeah Mind you this is getting quite frightening at his age lark Age? Yeah I mean Rob was saying he watched a documentary on it the other night and he said even by kicking someone now, if you don't haven't, isn't an accident it's like kissing someone you Ooh Now it, now it, he says it's getting quite serious now, cos apparently came up with erm these four cases where erm the people have lived an absolutely normal pure life Yeah and the only thing that they've done is if you kiss somebody, kissing someone whatever you know, erm or someone's dirty and that is the only thing they can put it down to Oh my god its quite frightening when it gets to yeah it is things like that Mum What my love? No you don't want that, oh you're making a lovely train here well we're going to stay at a hotel on the nineteenth this Sunday Are you, ah Yeah second honeymoon No we're going to erm Horsham for the Christmas party, the works Christmas party and erm, the hotel where Rob stopped at last time when he was down in Horsham, that's where they're doing Christmas party this year, so we obviously we staying in a double room Oh lovely for the night, so, cos the woman at the hotel said er, oh she said want a double room this time not a single Oh yeah so he said I did say I'm bringing my wife, she said oh yeah how many times have I heard that before , it could be really embarrassing , so what we'll do we'll stop over the night and erm come home Friday morning, and mother's going to stay the night. Stay the night at your home? Yeah, yeah, get the kids organized and that's Oh that'll be lovely. So, well I haven't got anything to wear yet, It's my bodyguard , so where's he having that? Oh I don't know Where, is it his office? yeah a lunch do or I finished at lunch time today, Oh I wouldn't go for anything like that, he knows that as well Laugh if you said I'm coming and you didn't turn up Yeah. I'll suggest that I thought is fucking crazy, you know , I don't think you've got anything to worry about, have you seen that advert for Babycham no erm the advert with Babycham, erm, er running on about true romantics and he goes through all the differences his and this woman marrying this guy and she must be and she must be fifty five, and he's about twenty three, twenty four and Rob turns round the other day and said,she's got I haven't though, cos, I mean when he gets to those he's not a normal twenty two year old, he's way beyond oh yeah, twenty two, but Does he want to go out? Yeah at the same time I'm aware of the fact Mum where's that cat going? that he's maybe on a learning curve, do you know what I mean? I mean his little friend that came around on Sunday, Mat Mum what's that called? and he's he's six feet seven tall , he's twenty and you'd think he was thirty five Oh, I might come round in that case , that Hold on, go and get Charlotte What do you want? Bread Yeah with what? the bread Where's He's got He's gone to the Oh yeah What do you want on it? Erm, erm butter Get down then, so I can do it yeah through a snow a couple of weeks ago Do you want some bread and butter with jam Charlotte? Yeah Please please yeah, bring that one here then paper Paper, yes, Oh, that's paper, about eleven o'clock oh god, Why you got to go out then? cos erm, Val will be home at half past eleven and Oh Yes, Sally says we'll do it, we'll change it in the car alright, just as I was saying we had erm,we had roast dinner, Charlotte don't aggravate him, we had roast lamb, erm and I'd washed up by two o'clock mum and you know the first time since we've been married I've been able to actually cook a roast dinner and washed up by two o'clock on When was that, last Monday? yeah Well this Sunday we left all the washing up Mum gone and left us, half past eight, we were in bed by quarter to nine and mum , don't want some on mine You don't want jam on yours? I like it You do want jam or not? No, I just want butter You just want butter? Yes mum There's yours then sit up That's So you gotta say so by and David, you've got to travel down there on the Saturday. Well I've got to get to King's Lynn on Saturday Oh King's Lynn, oh that's not too bad I want some more jam mum. Ah I knew this, I get this every tea time. Alright, alright let's see if you like it I'm going through a stage where erm, I'm cooking them lunch and they just have a I've got on here mum is he alright like that or? Yeah, put it there he'll feed it, he'll have it, hurry up, that's it hurry up and eat it cos we've got to go erm, and they'll have sandwiches or something for tea and er if you point something they say no I don't want it and then when the other one can I have it, oh you're digging your finger in it Yeah Erm Graham and Janet little boys have got them at And what have they said about that? They're not doing anything about it No, they probably won't back down I mean when tests and god knows what else Oh, oh no What are these? what's that called? Charlotte, she's a girl, she's like a tiger She's like a tiger is she? Is she pretty? Is she pretty? What? Tell Gill where you'd go this afternoon?tell her Mm you little slug he is, I call him a slug Look Charlotte can't do anything without being messy, look, the other, the other erm morning I went to school to pick Ben up, er and I put her in the car seat, she's lovely and clean, and I give her a biscuit, by the time we got Oh no by the time we got there, it was all, I mean it was only a plain biscuit but it dry all way round here That was like yesterday, right, it was all over his clothes, all over his jumper and all round his face and all in his hair, you're a slob,a slob, shall I go and get yeah I can't sit on seat. That's right you sit on there and I'll get the kiddies together no Joseph right, you gonna hurry up and eat that, because we've got to go sweetheart Oh if the baby right, let me go and put Joseph in the car Why? you sit here, you sit still for a minute and eat, eat your sandwich and I'll just put Joseph in the car oh what hands yeah, eat it up then just let me go and put the baby in the car and I'll be back for you in a minute, alright? Yeah, if you sit there and eat that What? There's none there. , yeah in there don't want fork, baby baby baby , it's baby that's Charlotte, that's his hattie hattie hattie look there you go , mm, oh my mummy said hat just smack my head No she doesn't want to smack your head there you are get off her, there she is I'm back, hello my lovey she's looking at Charlotte Cor, no gently with her would you? Let her go, let her go Where's that gone? Pardon? That's alright Gill leave them Are you sure? Yeah, after the devastation we left you in the other day Oh god, don't matter about that right then have you finished eating? Yeah, eating Right let's just quick, can I use, have you got a cloth, I can just wipe her hands with? Oh yeah there's a you'll have to use I've gone to work I know I've got baby fresh wipes. I wonder what you was Yeah alright, well I think you've eaten what you're going to eat you don't eat crust anyway, right that's it put it down Got don't you leave anything will you? Put the cards back up please got You've got some, oh, you can't pick up, yeah oh Oh, come on Charlotte cos erm Come on darling you've got to go, we see you another day, should we? No. Yeah, we'll come and play another day no when we've got a bit more time shall I find out cos I think I'll see Maria tonight, I'm sure she won't mind if you come, to the party on Saturday Oh it's Maria is it? You know Maria do you? Your baby sitter, she's the plumpish one Yeah, yeah she's the big one I was being polite. I think she's got about eighty people going so it should be quite good and we got a Hang on, just wait I'll have a word then I'll give you a ring tomorrow yeah Friday, yeah mm, yeah I shall be there, I shall definitely be there in the afternoon anyway Yeah, ok as far as I know, when, when is it her party? Saturday Saturday night? yeah Oh, in the meantime I'll just see if mum's available, she can baby sit , yeah, I haven't met, yeah, erm, where's he live? Up the road, big No, I haven't met him yet and Mat and are coming as well. I mean I'll wait, we wait there and , but I think she just wants as many people as she possibly can, do you know what I mean? How old is she? She'll be twenty three And she's just had a party party Yes, her mum and dad just gone off on a cruise for er, I don't know Oh god , booze up time Ok, well give us a ring then I'll ring you tomorrow afternoon then erm, I shall be there as far as I know and in the meantime have a word with mum and dad if they're free right bye, bye then sweetheart wave bye, wave bye, bye bye, bye darling bye. So woke up and Will's now gonna show off for you, right we'll see you soon Lovely to see you yes, I thought I'd just nip in, let you know I'm still alive thank you, bye talk to you later bye. let's just do the door right off we go look where you're going step that's right, now we've got to hurry up and get home, we're late say what's new mummy So you had a good day yesterday? Yes dear, very, very nice I thought about you, about what time was it, about ten o'clock and I thought well it's no good gasping for air, she'll soon be able to have some yeah . but as I was saying erm, it was erm when you think I sort of tend to worry if I see like Neville you know Mm towards or anywhere, but then you see it can be your weight as well yeah to climb the stairs, and I think then you tend to panic a bit, I and I felt most of the time I felt fine, and then you see getting up at five o'clock yesterday morning, by the time I got off, it was your father that fell asleep on that last drinking session, but I mean, as I said we ain't used to drinking in the day like that I mean some of them at the going in at dinner time and have a couple, three pints it don't hit them does it? No And erm I they had to have a couple of I mean I think yeah? and er, well what they were saying on bus cos he had a sleep just in front of us last night, somebody said we're Park Row and they said oh he's asleep in front there, well that was him you see, so I reckon he comes from there, see I mean, the rest must have just come in here or King's Lynn, well if they fell out Yeah they could get ready for half past where with rather doing the oh we had our alarm ooh after five, William called us just in case we laid late, so we was on the move ten, ten past five, so I mean we've been on the go perhaps two hours more than anybody else and eh, and then cos when, it was just like that, but it was down here now I thought to went to that down on his and a little yeah bit here and I thought god that so I thought right I'm gonna change places in that seat but your father's sitting on,alright, I said go in that back seat, just behind us there were there or I said or I'm just coming to sit where you are, I said I can't do four hours sitting like this, I mean I'd have been boss eyed before I got, well I was I, I, all say look at that cloud mm I would have been boss eyed before I got out of Lynn, I could feel it you know, squint through yeah and I thought there was no good putting up with it just by not saying yeah perhaps he's been forewarned and just swapped over sides with , but I mean we had a full wind and light through then, well sort of yeah and er so that was ok and, you know, but they I didn't know quite what to do with myself when I got home then I watched, see the news, see about this Sharon er, no Sharon yeah er I was listening to well, I mean all erm was erm erm Wednesday night was a, an, an engineer yeah well it's the next door neighbour and they said it's alive and I asked Jayne cos I said what the,hospital, yeah cos like it, it's that neighbour, well it's a neighbour yes, but neighbour either side, yeah but, I reckon it's the guy when they went down to Aunty Queenie, to that stream that day yeah because they, she said that has this hay and straw,so so all in all so er will go on another trip? Oh yeah I mean they were good company to go out with and I said to you at dinner time and then since they've joined us, so we was all the same yeah time, I sort of thing, bit like and Barbara did, but they were What? where you looking this is the combine here look but I mean they weren't you know and I mean someone we didn't even know at all, so er you know all erm but I mean Lionel sat with the guy that organized it and the bus driver so he didn't feel out of it, you know, Mm so you know all in all erm When could you go on one of these , but when they asked us to go, you know, I mean they two seats to spare and old Bert wouldn't speak and came and said would you two like to go, he's on the committee, you see so he went and mentioned it to Lionel and Lionel got them out and said would you like to go and right I'll put your name down so How much did it cost? nothing. Huh, you can't complain at that can you? Erm,gone in that museum it was eight ninety five to go and the meal would have cost, I should have think, well Dan said the Christmas meal was being advertised, it was gonna be served any time, erm I mean you can't , you can't go any, I mean you can't even go to the Bridge for er, erm, a meal under a fiver so I eight or nine pounds yeah I think it was, was it six fifty for one lot of meal and eight for another? , it's got the Just got erm , I mean was out in the stick I like to just half a dozen little flight of stairs perhaps with a dozen steps Don't know, well what have you done with it? Alright, well look, dear I can scrub that and I'll, I'll get it for you so all in all er can you see the boat, you look and see them in a minute behind this one erm, oh I came along here the other day and I thought oh heck, if you were living in actually Yeah. Mum, there's a boat Pardon? boat I don't know what you're saying we're going to go to the shops shops That's right, we'll change the subject , so er erm oh, forgot whatever I was going to say to you oh are you doing anything Saturday night? No Oh you got your market all day haven't you? No, I ain't promised I'll be there all day Gilly because I could well,noth nothing's happened as yet, but Sally's erm been invited to a party, her, her baby sitter's party mm and there's only going to be a couple of people there she knows and she was gonna ring Marie and see if Rob and I could go, you know, really as a, to keep, make up a foursome sort of thing yeah and she said it's on Saturday night so I'm sor , you know, I'm sorry it's short notice and erm she said I'll ring Marie and find out, I said well you know ring her but I said I can't make any promises I said, I know mum should have been out Friday night and I don't know what else she's got on Oh it's only a so erm it might not come Mum Yes Charlotte Pardon? I said I would make them a hundred butterfly cakes, and they either they'll eat them or they'll sell them, and I'll hav I'll try and have them ready for when rings up at half past one and if they sell them and she brings me any I wouldn't mind knocking a few more up for tomorrow, but I'm not gonna give them all Oh no You know, I shall say look, er, a I'm a So, what's the plan of action then, is dad going all day or I don't quite know Gilly, what tomorrow? Yeah. I don't quite know, er morning always seems that much busier as regards food, so Ivan's going up in the morning erm, you know why? Well is only, only asking Father's gotta be up there as tomorrow night to take to bring his stuff Mm. when they shut at three you know four Well I mean his erm, his father's up there and, I mean if you want to go up later on I'll run you through yes, oh if you decide you want to go sort of four, fourish or threeish oh it closes at three oh well so I mean I should want to sort of come home sort of then you know, er Mum you should be alright for a lift home with someone shouldn't you? Mm. I mean if you decide you want to go But I don't want to go from eight o'clock no or nine o'clock till three no cor look at this tractor and trailer look, can you see it Aysh? Yeah it's not got a number plate on it tractor and a trailer No, er, we were sort of saying to Jayne everything was so pricey in that museum Mm you know, erm, I said well we'll take them a little something home. Well, that's how a lot of these places make the money isn't it? Yeah Tell you where I wouldn't mind going to have a look erm,Crystal What's Well, there, if the things open today, cos erm I haven't got anything for Jayne mm, mm. if they have got Aunty Jayne's present Yeah have a, cos I bought her that umbrella yeah,skirt yeah and earrings mm you couldn't wait could you? I don't see the point in going mad cos you're not going to get there any quicker Then you get some clown like her mm or him god, they're half asleep today with no perhaps if we can quickly, I mean I don't want a lot out of Tesco's, it will just save turning out, I don't mind turning out this afternoon but, if the traffic It'll do more good at home can't you? Well it don't seem a lot of point in wasting petrol to come Cos I don't, I don't hoover my house but I mean father's now put irons and toasters on side the bed and oh Gilly Oh, get this Christmas bingo out the way So I got I've, I've have a you'll be alright I'd rather have a couple hours me a couple of hours tonight wrapping up presents and rest and you know mm rather be up there with them they sanctioned to go up there on a Friday night and they said that, that lot of them do er you know, what you call it, there you go up and everyone's in the mood to sell you something, they let you, you know mm and course with that Ron on the , of course you know, he tells jokes and some of them are a little bit crude, but, they take all in good part, you know, I said to dad I said you don't always, he's that dry mm I mean he went to school, he went to oh school, but he lived at Enfield and erm, you'd have never thought then that he had got it in him and, so dry I said to dad I said he never ought to be a bus driver, cos the things he comes out with, he'd have to be a comedian, I mean he's, I mean as er, what, they used to call the comedians didn't they, three or four of them on the telly, and I mean Mum they're all animals, , I know, I think he wanted a pair of binoculars. er, so, with that er he never ought to be on the buses, I mean he old Bernard Manning and Charlie what was that, his name, Charlie what? Williams? They called it the old comedians Yeah, yeah , yeah, er well he was a half cast,wh yeah oh god you definitely said they're out today, oh where's he going? Oh ah, and they talk about women drivers, ain't got a patch on him Where's he gone? Oh, oh, well he's still reversing, he's waving his arm about for everyone to overtake him but, he still sits in the same position oh dear So I come there at this morning with cramp in my leg and I said I've hardly had that, Oh there's that little old man mum oh yeah, she came the other week with somebody, I reckon he ill treated her I, he looks a bit weird don't he? Yeah Oh come on, stop having a chinwag I see if I can park round by the post office first do you know what you want out of Argos or, oh you've written all the numbers down haven't you? Yes I did. That's what I call super efficient There's the Argos ticket I don't know whether it's in What's the matter? Alright, can, can I just park up then I'll get it for you Yeah, where, look see where this light is up here, look, as soon as I've parked I'll get it for you but at the moment I can't reach it alright? In a minute I'll get it that's a school like Ben's, look Charlotte Can you see it? That's a nursery like Ben's What's the problem Joseph? Well there are then drink it. There look there's the serviette. isn't it? oh what is the matter with everyone today? I think you might have to have a look Gilly, just to double check cos I've got two numbers on here. Oh, what was it you wanted? The police one Oh the police Lego, erm, Duplo? yeah Look at the digger Charlotte Oh where the hell have I put that now? Digger look here well I, I know which one it is cos they're on a separate page in the Argos book Oh no , no yeah, so I know what you're talking about well didn't you say you got the police one the other day? No, no, I couldn't get it Oh I thought you got, what did you get from As Asda? father got another set of lights No from Asda you bought two Duplo things, well No I bought one one that farm yard set ah the farm yard set for Katie but then, cos I haven't got her so much, so I thought we, she, I don't think she'd be into police, I thought if I bought police and that was dearer and the amount that I bought for Ben and Charlotte mm they'd better share the police and if it comes to the crunch I can get a farm yard for the birthday you know what I mean? Oh look at this, for a handy spot Well I don't know where I put the Argos ticket at all now, got the one you want, in given you that one because er Mummy Yes mummy Charlotte mummy,mummy pardon? Try? Try? yeah Try for what my love? try Try There's my thirteen pound and your Oh you've got a speak problem today, the brain's not quite functioning with the mouth, is that right? don't want big one. Now is there anything else you want in town? Don't think so Gilly. Right, if we erm, nip off to Tesco's now, what's the time, half past ten are we going to go into Tesco's now Charlotte and have a ride in the trolley? Trolley Trolley Are you gonna be a good girl in Tesco's? I ain't got the reins with me, going to have a ride in the trolley, no trolley yeah you can ride in nanny's trolley, won't that be nice? In the front oh come on Argos has now open, open on erm Sunday Sunday , yeah it was in the paper won't be any different to any other day of the week then will it? Rainbow, Ah? what I've seen in the paper today, we're both gonna join today, er this week, er Council erm, er are looking forward to it, they approve of it bet you bloody County Council will So we're gonna catch every traffic light on red now there was something I wanted to go into Wisbech for but I can't think for the life of me what it was, I must get stuck into this Christmas shopping again, really must so much to do and such little time to do it in oh he's, he's put that car down five hundred pounds, that price of that car was, that he got for sale on it seven, seven, nine, five, What,yeah then it went down to seven, fifty, now it's six fifty it looking good a nick in, he'd be lucky to get five I would have thought is there anyone you want a bit of crystal for? Crystal No mind you it's perhaps not a good idea to go and have a look not with this no No, perhaps go one day I think there's only one I actually need to No, but give me a chance just to have a oh with the women, it's men I haven't got organized. What colour cords does Rob want? Erm black. You got the men sorted out? Who William and Dad? Yeah No Well do you want that Littlewood's shirt that I've got,still says that we're going, I get up on Sunday and go to and , no we've got to go to with that coat, take that coat over Oh yeah so if you wanted to go see if you change William's thing to the colour I want and if they had, he said he thought the shirt that the guy got with it matched it better than the smaller check, so do you wanna give him that check shirt that I bought him? Yes, how much is that? Nine ninety nine. Mm It was just a thought that I mm, alright can take it back that it was a nice one , it was a brushed one. No, that'll be al , I, I just haven't got a clue what to what to get him, I, I mean I'm still stuck for father women I, I seem to be getting on quite well for the women it's just finding some What col , what col come on granddad move your bottom. what colour did you say? what colour cords? Black why? Well I don't know. Oh I see, either black or navy, but erm, he's got more jum , more jumpers to go with black. I've erm, I've got him a sagey coloured pair now you're gonna be a good girl today aren't yeah? So is he alright for sweaters? Erm You know, I've got to work it out Mum what I've, what William's will come to and Well he's alright, he's got a navy sweater and a grey multi sweater He'd, would he be into one of these? One of these what? Waistcoats? Yes, for his cars Well actually I've, I've, I'm toying with the idea, I haven't quite made my mind up, erm I've seen some wax waistcoats Oh wax jackets but they're a waistcoat and I've, I've ordered one really just to see what it's, it's like, because erm at the moment I can, I just try and get a bit closer to the door, I think we'll go round again, erm cos in the, in my club book at the moment, I, I can get twenty percent off and which brings it down to, it's twe well say thirty pound so twenty per cent off it brings me down to erm brings it down to twenty four pounds and then erm with my commission off that brings it down to just under twenty one pound mm so I'm toying, that's what I'm toying with at the moment, is this erm wax jacket Oh. well it's not a jacket, it's a sort, as I say it's a waistcoat. Oh there's one right in front of us, look, blind as a bloody bat Gill. Dad's just got in Oh gawld, move forward a bit, so that's what I was going to get, but erm in BeWise they've got erm checked shirts and they're five ninety nine this brushed cotton thing, so I thought if I get him that waistcoat and a pair of cords, erm and get him one of these brushed cotton shirts that'll be that sort of colour How much are the cords then? What in the club book? No Cords in general? eh? Erm Mummy yes, we're now going sweetheart, erm mummy, I think they're about fifteen something like that, fifteen, sixteen, really depends whether you buy needlecord or erm this thickish cord Well what do you want? Well I'm, I'm easy, I mean the thickish cord erm, washes ni , they wear better I think the thickish cord but I mean erm and they're a bit warmer, but if you shop about usually you can get them erm the same price as the needlecord I'll leave that with you, right. If we've got to go to Boston at some point, for the bras you see, so erm Mm, oh, oh I'll leave that with you anyway I'm a bit concerned you know, about this, just this one week's wages you know because I would have thought once Jack got his time sheet out he would perhaps realised that Just ring Derek up no but on the other hand I've got a certificate till then, so if the, if the money has run out for what he pays me mm and he claims back, I'm still entitled to er, oh yeah sick pay from somewhere aren't I? yeah,you're allowed and I, you're allowed twenty six, er twenty six weeks off I thought I was. I'm sure it's twenty six weeks off on full pay and then you go on Mm whatever, whatever yeah they call it this week, it changes names every week yeah so you it says I wouldn't know that statutory sick pay yeah, but I'm sure the, the first one's for twenty six weeks. Yeah, but I'm su , you know I did debate whether it was twenty No, no, I'm sure it was twenty six I thought it was six, twenty six if Derek and he went away last weekend he perhaps stuffed it in here but then he drops it in when he finds it mm but Jack is so temperamental these days, I mean the other day he went by he said oh I nearly forgot you, I mean one week he rang me and had it pinched out of his car Yeah and then he found it, stuffed down the bottom, so he don't know what he does with it Oh so he found that? Yeah it was in his car He reckoned it was pinched outside the post office yeah he said oh Margaret wages have been took out me car he said I ge , I'll get it at some point for you Margaret he said when I go at the bank but he said, yours was taken out Jack's car What? he said yeah and then then he found it and then er, I whether Jack or Derek came up with it he said it was found in the car. Well I think you ought to ring Well's Oh I will after this weekend, you know, because if yeah, but if they just bring one, I shall say well I've got choice then to say well is this this week's or last week's, now I don't want to give them that opportunity to say well she's worrying about one week's wages, I mean Jan could love that and that's given him chance to bring er, whereas if it pops through the door, or he comes mm I shall say to him, what's happened is this this week's or last week's? mm, and if he says well I've already got last week's here. Oh well then I'll say well that ain't. Right come on then off we go. Hello there right, and what do you want, some mushrooms which mushrooms shall we have my love? Two lots of these two lots of mushrooms oh, right a cucumber you're being a very good boy today, yes, no you're not right, peppers I've got green peppers at home so they'll be alright, better have a few tomatoes, right will you just sit there for a minute while mummy gets to pick the tomatoes oh, oh don't panic, no-one's going to run off with you Oh sorry darling I'm not running off with you. right tomatoes Oh right, oh what cauliflower of course, yes can mummy just try and clip this on her cardigan cos it keeps coming off? That's right, let's just hope we meet someone we know and have a decent conversation with them shall we? Yes. Right let's quickly catch nanny up, do I do cheese board for tomorrow? No Oh why not green we'll see if nanny can get us a celery tomorrow, I think cos that is really green Mum, mum, mum right go nan, nan, nan, nan, nan nan, nan, nan, nan, nan, let's see if we can find her, shall we? Daddy wants his chocolate nan oh I think we'll take him a bar of this oh let's have a carton of custard, seventy nine right, we've got one of those, right I want pasteurized milk four pints one oh five, oh that's not, no great saving is it? If I buy eight pints, right this will do Oh Oh, right let's just have a look and see what's here no cream cakes today we're on a diet mm no, eat by the seventh so what's today's date the sixth, tomorrow's the seventh there's no hold on sixth today seventh eighth is Sunday, no it must be the ninth, oh god I'm totally out of date I don't even know what date it is let's have one of these that'll make a change apple and raspberry, apple and rhubarb, no I think we'll have apple and raspberry, well that's one less dessert I've got to make right were alright for coffee we're alright for tea, Mum Charlotte, now what's nanny picked up? I can't remember Oh I see can you oh,here mum Charlotte Christmas Christmas, yes my love Christmas Christmas again, well, goodness me, can you, also see if you can get me a stick of celery tomorrow? Cos they're sixty nine here, but they're green, you know What's that? Oh what is it my love? Erm, yes they did, er yeah you can pass me one actually, how much are they here? Forty five, ooh ooh ooh mum His face is black, whatever do you get up to in the car? Mum Charlotte mum right we'll have another ground black pepper erm see if Charlotte can tip that one down the sink. Where's the Well I should think they'll be with them the when we get in the car buy one get one free oh might have, have we had it? Oh here, might as well, I wonder if nanny saw it oh it's one of these where you've got to send away for it mum well in that case then I might as well have a tested one and be stingy with it, erm oh where's sage and onion, oh here we are, sage and onion Right quickly go and find nanny again cos we seem to have lost Mum yes, we need one of these to make, clean out the deep fat fryer oh I want a french stick What's the problem? Mm You getting a bit excited? Yeah Mum Charlotte Yes when we get in the car anything else I don't know where nanny is, here, here she comes I think this is a waste of time. Thank you, I mean, we'll turn this off put that on when we get to near the check out shall we? Perhaps have a conversation with someone up that end erm well I, I, I can't see anything Oh they seem to stick in my mouth. I don't hate them or anything I think they're really quite vile, oh Well you can just wait, you want you can go in mine , erm do we could do with and that would be it for the interview What he was out moaning again yesterday, so I just thought it was getting a bit long round where the old septic tank used to be oh shan't and we've done Tesco's so that clock's right isn't it? That's that out of the way She Want to go back via erm South , want, see what he's got, I keep, every time I come have a look Always go for fish and chips That's right , that's what he had the other day when they came in There you are, good girl er, what's the plan of action this afternoon? I'm gonna make a fruit cake Mm Oh did I give you my library ticket? No. Bet it's due now see if I can win any of the luxury cars , I don't think it's possible to get that there was the,, you, you, you realise make an insurance claim for it, oh, now, now what's he doing? Got his hazard lights on but he's moving but he's moving he'll have more problems if he carries on moving don't panic, all is under control I think there's one driving round the bend perhaps talk about it all, where's really first year he gonna know No, what it's all about oh pork chop, no it isn't proper pork No. all what erm , what you thinking about mother? You look deep in thought. I, I I should have gone about eight o'clock tonight Mm, mm. you know so I, I you know you know it's just a peculiar You know where all this stems from do you? What? Well from when you first had the operation and you was frightened keep bumping into you, and it's, I mean that's taken an awful lot of confidence away and you still got Oh dear I feel worn out Pardon? Push it down then Joseph's a good boy today Yeah, very good. Is daddy at home today? Yep,he came, he came home from comes about he comes in about late Yes, cos you just walked in didn't you? Yes, it was eight, half past and erm pardon that's enough you two. Excuse me what's that over there? Is that a train? Is it a car? Is it superman? No No, mm, mm, oh dear it's again, god. wafting over and erm Health and Environment people you know and erm, it can't be good for your health er Oh it shouldn't be what do you say? They're clean a right cold old weekend. I don't know one for you, good girl, there's a school there look like what Ben goes to, but that's a bigger school , god I've got to get myself organised yet for next year haven't I? Oh god . I says I'd rather can get Ben to next September, Joseph, Charlotte starts on September and Joseph will be the next one. Which September could she go now or She can't go till Sept September coming Oh ninety two , Ben er start, erm prim primary infants September ninety two, Charlotte will go at half days primary in September ninety three and Joseph's go at half days erm September ninety four. Oh they start when they're four ? Yeah , yeah and then they'll be able to stay Joseph and Charlotte will be full time in January they're allowed to, I think what it is, is, they're allowed to start when they're small part time but they're not allowed to go full time until the term they're gonna be five in and you see Charlotte will be five in March and because I think that comes before the Easter of the Bank Holiday, erm she'll be able to start January full time, where you're supposed to, you know, three years they'll all be Why do you this three hours did you see it on telly the other night? They were interviewing grown ups in the street and ask them er, so many figures and add that on, she said Oh god I don't really know, you don't know, well the answer was the whole education wants yeah to bring it back, said she didn't know, she said I don't know, and they asked another one, it was about what's a hundred and thirty one and thirty eight and something, not, she tell you it was a, the answer should have been a hundred and twenty nine and they've got a thirty one in it yeah Oh it's lovely Eighty eight, forty one, something, something of that effect. And he's got to add them together? I think add them together, well there was an old woman of about fifty, sixty, she said a hundred and twenty eight, well he said you're one out madam, a hundred and twenty nine, well they were amazed themselves, the girl said well a hundred and twenty eight Oh no a hundred and twenty eight What do you say? Please you gonna get another dent in the back if you carry on driving like that I was gonna say do you want I don't know if I agree with this, giving seven year old, three hours tests, erm, I don't, see the child is, I mean can you just see sit Benjamin sitting down for three hours doing a test? And they reckon what, what it, that's all it's going to be a three hour test I don't agree with putting a child of that age through a test I mean there's none of this nursery pick out who is slow on what, where, why and when, who's good at something who's, who's not so good at it, erm apparently and er, put a seven year old through this exam, find out what they're good at and what they're not, well the teachers obviously aren't doing their jobs very well. Mm there was Ben's He's quite good, but you know he, he, where, where he had that bash on his head Oh god it stands out a mile, quite a good photo, it looks as though he just about Yeah. It is quite good, quite of Katie Yeah she's Katie she bought what were her chances of re-ordering it you know Well there was, but I can't remember what prices they want Now, you've had two of me ain't you? Yeah and I owe you seven, is that right? then what about the shopping? I haven't sorted that out yet, I'll sort that out this afternoon. why do you owe me seven? Oh no, I paid you three, didn't I? I don't know I gave you three for the bird box, you gotta deliver me a bird box Oh, right yes, yeah I want Barry to find that, oh I see you owe me a fiver don't you? Yeah Yes cos I gave father the money for whatever it was, so, yeah, I gave him five pounds worth of change and then there's erm, that shopping, bit of shopping you got for me last week I knew I owed you five oh dear You've got Christmas raffle tickets, get them all together, I've got you pounds worth on shelf the other week,and then I got your two pounds worth, I, two pounds worth on Oh put it on the shopping list No, I'll treat you to them, I make my lot to the nearest bottle with Unicare if I can, how many you've got? Erm, I've no idea, not Well I sent three But I mean if I think, if I think erm, if I remember rightly you were, you were buying erm couple or three weeks that's my first lot, oh dear excuse me Now what are they doing? One's pushing it over and the other one's pulling it back, oh there isn't enough of them around as it is he's late isn't he? He was late yesterday, got a brand new vehicle and, yet I mean if, if was getting here at one and yesterday he got to ours at half past eleven, so erm, it was half past eleven that's right, it was dead on, so erm,erm whatever's he going to be like when it gets near to Christmas? Oh my goodness, they are out today. Whatever is it going to be like nearer Christmas? I mean he can go it's the bus that can't. Yeah Is this grass that you bring being delivered tomorrow morning? Mum Yeah, don't they come and No that was the erm oh whatever was that called, it's the piece of wood that runs along the brick work Oh that the rafters sit on, on the gates Oh bum I ain't paid the mortgage, oh only in the I'll pay it probably tomorrow Charles had his money I'll try and nip up there tomorrow , if not I'll have to go on Monday I don't think any, I don't think run away, what will Monday's date be, the ninth?oh well There are those new Chronicles that have got to come out I don't think any are coming up now. Oh I thought erm, they said they chartered them cheap No, I thought they're all up there watching and Dear me I think Daryll was hoping the roof things the best they can do was Saturday morning. No, you're not getting out today, nanny's got a lot of work to do, and she's got loads of cakes to make and all sorts. No, I'm sorry darling, come up later, we've got to go. Let me get myself sorted out and Nanny, nanny will probably have you up later when Ben helps Gramps to feed the dogs, and he won't do that either will he,feed him Cake, cake, cake Nanny hasn't got any cakes at the moment cos you've got to cook them, say bye, bye No yes, come on Bye, bye say bye, bye. You know Les up the garage? Yes. Les. Yeah. He got asked out by that Kate. Ain't he got big? Ain't he got You know Kate? The bleeding fat girl, he got asked out by her. It's in there. She wrote him a letter. Going out! Is it? Going out. Just don't get all mucky. Hello. Hello. Say hello. You say hello. Ooh! You don't wanna lick that. No. No, go on. It's like with that . Eh? No. Aargh! Gotta see them next time. Back though ain't they? It ain't. He said no. No. See, I was a bit shocked, you know, Mike said he went to Chessington was it? Yeah. Ha ha! I learn everything Why did you when we were here? What? Why didn't you do that when we were here? When They are massive. when we were out where? Hold on. Go on the er He put him on the Bat ride. lorry driver Bung it in there. or the boat or whatever it is. The pirate ship. On the back seat, I got him on it. Was his face You've seen it on the one that had gone over. We ain't been on it yet. Oh. Bloody hell! I wouldn't go on that. Where you hang upside down in the air and Stop bouncing that ball! What? Stop bouncing that ball! Urgh er . Great . Here are. Pass the ball. I love that skill. So have you got anything new since I've been away? Dunno. Got any new games for your computer? No. It's fucked innit? You must have fucked it up. Why what's the matter with it? You know the little box that goes into the back of the telly Yeah. took the wires out. Who did? . Why? He's a prick. He's a prick? Mm. Yeah. Yeah. Come upstairs and listen to this tape? Blinding tape! Do you wanna hear it? I can't be bothered. Come on Chris, listen. It's funny man I te Bring it down here. Nah. It's better you got them speakers. It's enough funny man I'm telling ya! Come upstairs, play on the hi-fi. I I bet you any money you laugh. Hello. Did you train him to wee on the thingie now? Yep. Found that Gets up the stairs now. Gets up the stairs now ? Yeah he , even when he go upstairs he can't get down though. Can't get do , get up but can't get down . Shall I show Michael Mum? Yes. Steve ! No don't take him up there Chris. Ah go on. I just want No I said it's just Just started to make him not well again. Just up the I said stairs? no. No. Ah. Ain't he nice. Can we get one Mum? What? One of these dogs? I want one. Yeah, hang on. Just gotta stop it. Stop bouncing that fucking ball! Chris, stop bouncing that ball. You haven't taped that have ya? What? The ball? No. I dunno what they'd say if you did. Leave him there. Leave him Chrissy. He's sick if you help pick him up. Yeah? Yeah. Well that's why Mark still won't pick him up. What are you doing here? What a nice pleasant lot. I know. Eh? You could be a . Who? You. Why? Well it has just not come through. Just leave it on. Where's he gone then? Chris! What you doing? Come here. You don't wanna be? What shall we do? It's boring. Two days, two hours, and twenty seven minutes. What? That's how long it's taking you to do on the paper. Apparently so. Oh yeah, and twenty two seconds. That thing's really good innit? Well apparently it's . Mm mm. I think I got it in a shop on the where did I get it? I got in this chemist in the shops there didn't I? Yeah, down Basildon, or Pitsea weren't it? Mm. That's where I got bike from Did you go in, go in that little Sorry, you got your pet shop? Did you see a tiny little pet shop? Where did you park? No, must have been in a car park. Wha What one? Tesco's one? Yeah, must have been. Well you know the one through there on the left the little one. Yeah I know where you mean. Yeah, we used to go Steve. there. Yeah I've seen him That's all I buy. go in. my mascara. Well, oh bloody hell 85 135 I don't see yours though. Mi , mine isn't bad I mean that one out there is, like the same as the one I had but it's E F five which is fuel efficient, you know, like it's got the extra fuel efficient, and it really is it's good on petrol. Unless Steve That is lo , used to eat it. Stevie left the car outside the house with over a quarter of petrol. Must be there's something wrong somewhere. Ooh! Terrible. He's come out and it's nearly on the red. I said well how do you think I reckon there's something wrong with it. I mean you don't put a fiver in to go and then, then have to put more in to go to bleeding erm Wickham and back. No. I mean, that, Christ! It ain't that far. Oh I'll have to go now, gotta do some shopping. Only just fucking got here! No! Been here ages. Have not. You're like the old man you are, go somewhere, stay five minutes and then go. Yeah. So are you. Excuse me? Yeah. You ain't much different. Who? You. Stayed with you for Yeah, cos I made you a sandwich and you sat in the garden chair. Don't make no difference. Had one of my plants out there that has bloody gone now! Told him not to do the garden until I've finished. Buds are that big, every time he went to thing he snapped it off. In the pot thing. Who Dad did, snapped it off? Oh I had to wall onto him. Well I had to climb over the wall and fucking jump there. Are you gonna watch the rest of that. I ain't got no cash. Well I better be, bloody go. Alright. I'm off. And make sure you got the steak. Yeah I still got the steak. It's no But it it is nice. Yeah. Told ya. Yeah we had that didn't we? Saves you leaving all them taters. Mm. Peas and It don't Two hours. take that much does it? No it was lovely. Mm. Cooked it slow and long. Mm mm. It was nice. Chops. Did I give you them? Yes, and I loved them. Oh you asked me Mincemeat, will that Very nice. do ya? Haven't used the mince. Braising steak. Haven't used that. That was it. No there was more than that. Oh. And bacon? Spare ribs though. Yeah? What about ? I don't buy things like that cos it never gets eaten in my house. Mm mm. It's a waste of fucking money. That weren't bad really, I mean, you bought all that meat. Will he have chickens and that up there now? Dunno. Shall we go on up there? If you want. Are we going, yeah? Got a bad back? Ah Mum, it's killing me! No I'll come. Oh stay here with the dog, alright? And then you can shut all the doors and everything. He int gonna climb out of windows is he? You wanna walk him, not go in the car. ! Ah man! Ah man! Come on then. You gotta go at least a hundred Come on then. yards! Come on then. Go away! Get off!hoo hoo hoo. You've been Been sick. here nearly every weekend for over four weeks now. Oh I don't know. Your father wonders what's happening, I reckon he thinks I'm trying to pinch you don't he? Mm! Yeah, well I think I'm down this weekend cos I don't know what I'm doing this weekend. Dunno. I might be on shift work. Yeah. If I get any work. But you can always come down, cos you got a key ain't you? Yes. I mean Dad'll pi , if I'm working don't bother. But I mean, if I'm only doing shifts night shifts then you can come down and get yourself in, right? I'll let you know anyway what I'm doing. Alright then. But, we'll take it that I'll see you, not next week, but the week after. Alright then. Yes. So what are we going down there? What are we having for dinner tonight? Dunno. That braising steak. Might actually. We could have done that. Oh yeah. Kentucky Fried Chicken. And an hour down the golf range. Live the high life. What? You're getting a bit beyond. You what? Live the high life. Oh. What happened to your doors on the kitchen? Erm, we had to get . Oh. Why, what's wrong with them? Hanging the back. Mm. , what happened to the doors? Oh they just come off. Where d'ya get them doors? Them ones? The black ones? You know the shop, erm I was watching the fire engines. Mhm. Is the great Bill on? Oh! Here he goes again with his ball. Oh stop bouncing please. Is dad here? Yes. Oh hold on. I might get some meat and that for tomorrow. Alright then. Bloody hell! Think I shall stop this now. You had it on? Yeah. Did he win? Yeah. Yeah. Knocked them out in the tenth round. You know Lennox Lewis wants his next fight. That means there'll be two British, England's, for Great Britain heavyweight boxers fighting for World title. And Lennox Lewis is a heavyweight world title. And the only English person to win that will back is somebody . Oh. Well no one can see ya. Well,. You alright on that settee? Yeah why? It's quite comfy to lay on it.. Don't get too lippy boy! Grapes please. Go and make me a nice cup of tea Mike? I'll always make you a nice cup of tea. Mum never makes a cup of tea does she? I always make the tea. I made you one just a second ago. Michael had one didn't ya? It's not the point. I know he don't. Well I offered though. Go on. You make me one. Come round for dinner . What have you been up to? Nothing. Eating. Any phone calls? Nah. Why are they all ? At least I ain't washing your car tomorrow. Ah ah! Diddums! Yeah. Oh! What's the matter with you? What's your life revolve round washing people's cars? Yeah it does Steve. You won't get a car now anyhow. I know. Old X reg. And a white one, fucking hell! Send it back again. With a seam of . He's got a er erm H reg ain't he George? Mm. Got a K reg. When we went to see that one with er this What it's his car? Tell you what, it's in better bloody nick than what my old E reg was. What? That isn't hard is it? That car better condition than what my o , my one was. And what is it, six years older? Yeah. But has he had it since new? Other than the wheels I think. the one with the, like ? Mm. Aha. You, not the Oh what the ones with the R S turbo sign on them? What? What is it then? I don't know. Not really a car person are you? Not really in with it are you? Let's face it, you're not really one of the boys are ya? Well see you're eight years older than me. Not really. I knew about them when I was bloody ten! I knew the ins and outs of one of them. Mm. I even knew how much smoke fumes come out from nought to sixty. You know why? They ain't got them though Still ain't got one. Little Fiesta Festival. Ain't even mine. Is there any petrol in there? Mind you, it's so dark I can't see it. I pu , I just put a fiver in and takes, takes, turn the battery and it's . I didn't know it was that high. What? I wouldn't rate it that high. It's only worth about hundred pound. She'll have to pay me hundred to fucking take it. Make us a cup of tea boy. No! Are you ever gonna leave home though? Oh don't start! ! Well don't you enjoy him being here making you laugh? And costing you millions? Yeah, he's costing me fucking money! I'd rather be working. Ah ah! Oh God! You don't really mean it? Mm. Drunk your tea? He won it. Keep smiling. Er er, er er, urgh. He shot him. Yow! Did you tell your dad you went on a bike ride? Yeah. Oh. I was telling Christine. He don't know Christine does he? What? Well he's seen her but Mm. Oh my God ! So what are you doing tomorrow? Nothing just sitting down. Are you going out tomorrow? Ha? If you're going up to London after dinner let us know. I want some . ! Oh Mum I ain't gonna go up there in the . Did they have a lot? It'll cost you about three hundred pound to go up there and back. What you going in then? Going in yours. I'll get the train. I will. I think I'll get done better as well. Right erm, let's start with, how long have you lived in Harlow? Er fort er forty six next, about forty six years dear Erm I moved from Nazeing into Harlow because my house was condemned at Nazeing and I had to come into a Council house at , and erm, from I had erm, when I came from Nazeing I had erm, three sons three sons then and when I got to, I'd been here a year and then I had another son and after that er, when he was about two years and four months I had a daughter, but unfortunately I lost her with heart trouble and er she only lived four months and I lost her and er, er I stayed there, stayed there and, in and after that I moved to because it was a bit larger house for my family you see and from erm I was there several years and er stayed there and I had erm oh first of all I, I had my twins, my twin boys after I lost the daughter, I had twin boys and they, I went to I suppose about two years and four months between and I wanted to adopt a little girl but they wouldn't let, my hubby said no and so then I er, sort of see if I get a little girl and I had twin boys didn't I, and I'm still in, I'm in and after er after I had the twins when I was about er forty two if I did had another boy which is the one I've got, the last one up there of my eight, I ended up with eight boys Good god and from there er Mr was the er housing manager then from Epping, we came under Epping didn't we? There wasn't any new town or anything and er they'd built those er Council houses in the front in and he also erm, he said would I like a nice new house, to have plenty of hot water for the boys for bathing and everything, so I moved into a four bedroom and er I was there, er brought my family up there for, till er, unfortunately my mother came to live with me and unfortunately erm I had to go away erm because I wasn't very well on a holiday and I was called back cos she was found dead on the toilet my poor mother and er after that erm I came back and erm, in the middle of the week from holiday, oh bother it will it be okay? Hello, yeah, Betty's number , I'm just having a recording done of me while I've been in Harlow I'm having it done now , yeah, er so I can't stop alright? alright, bye, bye . It's always the way innit? Will that come on it? Will that No No that's alright then and er I, I got into, I came, came back sort of when mother died, had to come back suddenly in the middle of the week and then erm I brought me family up as I say and, and my hubby he took, he took us Christmas shopping which is twenty one years ago this, this month the sixteenth my daughter-in-law and I and the little boy and that's the little boy over there that's now married, the one with the photograph, he took us shopping at Bishop's Stortford cos we hadn't any shops nothing here then, there was nothing when I first came here it was terrible and we went to Bishop's Stortford and we came home in the, dinner time and I got erm, had our dinner and everything, had our meal, well we had soup and that was gonna cook at night, er you know, dinner at night so we had soup and that and erm he said I go down to the garage to put a tyre on my car, he came struggling back and within half an hour he was dead at fifty six years old that's all he was, so I was left to bring up those that wasn't married, I was left to bring up er the others you know, er I had the twins with me and Roy one of the boys and erm, er Brian the youngest one and I had to bring them up and I, after I, they, they all got married and I moved, before they got married I just got Brian with me the two twins got married, and I moved into my daughter-in-law's house next door which was no two, seven, five the other side, I'm sorry, two, seven, five and er I was in my house though three years that four bedroom and I couldn't afford to keep you know big house like that going with just three, my, me and my son so we moved into her house and she had the end one which is still in now, we'd done a swap and then cos er, er in the later years I was in there oh a long, long while and I loved it and I didn't wanna move but then I found, I was handicapped, I wouldn't get up the stairs to the toilet so I was moved into this bungalow you see and I had a friend living with me and he erm, he come here to live with me, came to lodge with me because he didn't want to go into Stevenage you see and er, after that erm, after that we, I had this bungalow and er I moved into this bungalow and er he moved in here with me and er everything happened when I got in this bungalow. The first May I fell out my garden and put my elbow out, this, this, this one right out which makes it awkward for me to use now, you know, I, I put that right out and therefore erm I had to go at, up to hospital and put that right and the follow the following, the following May my bed caught alight with electric blanket and that blazed all up, had my, had my bed all alight my double bed, the electric blanket and I'd only just had it serviced and that went, that was the second May and the third May we were going on an outing me and erm Arthur that was lodging with me and he, we got out of the taxi at Parndon and it, he just collapsed and died at me feet so that's the, that was the end of that and I've been living here you know, since he went, and erm I used to be able to get anywhere with one stick cos I had arthritis in this right hip you see, I could get anywhere with one stick in the taxi, or anywhere and I went to my son's, er which is now coming, I've been here about twelve years in this bungalow, er eight years erm, eight years ago in No this November gone, I went down to my son's, it was rather slippery and he took me down in the car and I, as I got out erm the car I said to him mind it's very slippery, he said I won't let you fall mother he said, so I went in, but as I came out with one stick he still hadn't got anything down, you know, if it had been a, a sort of erm sand or something down I wouldn't of slipped and I got half way in his car and out I fell and caught this left hip on the step, on the step and I dislocated my hip and it's right out of the socket like that, it should be, and I can't have it put back because I've had several coronaries in my life time and I cannot have it put back you see Oh but er, er as I say while I was round there the new town was, was all built and er I found, we found such a difference cos I used to have to go into Old Harlow shopping, I used to cycle before I was handicapped like this, I used to cycle everywhere, and er I went, you used to have to queue up in Old Harlow for the shops, we hadn't got anything here at all, no Stow or anything when I first, I mean when I came here nothing, it was just terrible terrible lane up here it was and all these were all ploughed fields and it was really terrible and I had erm, I used to have to cycle into the doctors Old Harlow, queue up, queue up at the butchers, queue up everywhere you had to queue and er, till they built this er the new, The Stow then we used to go to The Stow shopping you know which made such a difference, but er, during my say during my lifetime I've so, so pleased when the new town came because I wanted to move back to Nazeing where I came from when I first got here because it was such a terrible place there was nothing doing whatever, you know and then I moved erm, as I say after I got round the front there it was more, better really, you know, with all the er traffic and that you could see people going by and that as otherwise it, it was monotonous really in Common Fields, you didn't see much at all there, but you know it was, I quite enjoyed it really, now what else have I got to tell you? Oh, erm, do you think your life's been changed by the New Town? Oh yes it's, it's been changed a lot and a, and er, it's made such a difference and I've met er, I've got a er fr a very good friend who's, who's a Red Cross young man who I met at Leah Manning and he takes me out in the car which I wouldn't, never get out otherwise because my boys are all working you see they can't, they're busy working and erm do shift work and security work, one's got his own security business and the other one's got a factory in Bishop's Stortford so that they don't get much chance, they work away, some of them do that they cannot get to take me out see, so he takes me out, which he's very, very good you know, he's, yesterday he took me to erm, yesterday we, he took me to Ongar to see his sister in the bungalow and then he took me for a meal at erm The Chariot at er, at Brentwood, Brentwood, yes Brentwood The Chariot, it was quite nice I had rather, a good time, erm cos usually I can't get out unless I go out in the wheelchair you see I'm confined to a wheelchair, though I struggle out into the kitchen with me two sticks and I've got a stool in there that I do all my own cooking and I make cakes and that and I'm doing a cake gonna make a cake for Christmas for me brother and make a cake, er another one for myself like, but, and then I go to my erm daughter-in-law's to spend Christmas Day and then I, I'm going to my son's and spend Boxing Day which is my birthday, I'll be seventy four on Boxing Day I'm dreaded to say, yeah, but erm, this young man that takes me lives in Northbrooks, he's er a widower, but he's very, very good, he helps all us old people, you know, he's ever so good he is to me, he comes up and brings my shopping today, does my shopping for me as well, so, well he's, yes, he's most kind, for, nearly two years I've know him, that's a photo over there , it was taken at a wedding look, of my, that's it, over there , taken at a wedding dear, very good Yeah No I've made, it's made an awful lot of difference to me the New Town I mean we've got and the Council are very, very good to us, I mean we can't say they're not, they've had a, I've had the gas central heating put in, I've had a shower put in since I've been here and I mean they do they look after us well, the only thing I'm upset about that I've put off the ambulance to go to Leah Manning on a Wednesday because they want me to go on a Tuesday and I cannot go on a Tuesday because I have my friend come down which does all odd jobs for me you know, on a Tuesday dear and I just cannot so I had to see Mr is it? The other day Mm and he said he'd, he'd let me know before Christmas if he can get me back on a Wednesday, but I'm still taken on a Wednesday but my friend takes me in the car on a Wednesday but er I like to go in the ambulance you see really so er Yeah to be with my friends although they let me sit with me friends so they're good really so I'm hoping that I should be able to get back on a Wednesday because er, that's the only day really I can go, I go to Barn Mead on a Thursday as a rule you see, but yesterday I had to have a day off to go out, I had an invite out Oh so it poured, it poured of rain though last night that's the only thing Mm but er otherwise I'll, I'll wouldn't, I never want to go back to Nazeing not after now and, and now the, this new town we were taken shopping the other Tuesday, it was really lovely and we see all the shops, first time I've really seen them properly and er I thoroughly enjoyed it and we were all given erm in a, is it Blockers one of the shops? Yeah He gave, they gave us all a lovely mug each, beautiful Oh that was very kind Yeah , yeah was kind, it was kind of them, yes and we went all round the shops and er I thoroughly enjoyed it and in the new Co-Op as well you know, I thoroughly enjoyed it but he took me in the car so that we didn't have to hang about you see Yeah. so I can't get cold so I get, sometimes I get a coronary if I get very cold so I have to keep warm see but otherwise dear erm I think the New Town is really great I do Yeah, erm what do you think of erm entertainment in Harlow? Well, er very good but erm last year I was very disappointed I didn't get invite, an invite to the old time musical which is most unusual, it's the first time I've ever been missed out, but I don't know how it happened, our warden didn't have any of us invited, so I don't know how it happened Oh no, so we didn't have an invite I know, I mean normally I'm taken every year you know, there, to see the old time musical which is great and I look forward to that but cos I didn't get, get there and I love going to Leah Manning as I say we have dancing there on a Wednesday afternoon it's great, I enjoy it ever so much and I meet all my friends there that I haven't seen for years, you know, that I used to go to clubs with and they've all arrived there now you know it's great to see them, I thoroughly enjoy it. Yeah, so you've got a lot of friends in Harlow then? Oh yes I've got loads of friends dear in Harlow yes, lovely Got a lot yeah I've got a lot of relations, I've got twenty, twenty seven er grandchildren, that includes the great grandchildren, twenty seven which I have er to get something for all at Christmas it's a pantomime I've got stuff here and everywhere sorting out for them, cos my little grandson tonight is coming round to wrap them up for me so I got to mind I haven't, leave his present in the way otherwise he'll know what he's got yeah he's got, I got a tape for him, he wanted a tape called Madness so I've got him a tape for it so I've had to put that out the way so he doesn't wrap that up, no he comes and does them up for me tonight, and a friend Ian will help him as well, so you know it's, it's great really Mm, what did erm the dentist and hospitals used to be like before the New Town was built? Well we only had Epping hospital dear, that's all we had, there was only Epping and er they were er you know done what they could very good and we had a dentist, oh dentist you had to go er, oh right to Old Harlow, up er It's a long way I think it was Old Harlow or Hoddesdon somewhere I used to go, I know a long way off we had to go because there wasn't anything round here was there? No, no one, nothing at all , no, it's great. It's much better now? Oh it is now yes, you've got, I mean you've got the service now haven't you and erm, but I like at St Margaret's hospital I'd been, I had been, I went in there to have my last boy, but they're very, very good there they were, I've not been in, I've been in, I've had treatment here for my hip and that up at Harlow but they wouldn't do the operation because of my blood clotting you see, so therefore I've got to grin and bear it, I've had eight years of it, I couldn't walk for six months, but now I struggle and get around as I say with a couple of sticks I get round Mm er what was the school like before it, the schools in Harlow before Well all we had was Broadfield School and that's where my boys had to go to Broadfield, they went into Broadfield School and erm, they all got on alright you know, they got on well there and then from there they went to when the new school was built they went to Netteswell school you see, but two of my sons are electricians and unfortunately the eldest one, one of the electricians I couldn't put him to apprentice because I couldn't afford it cos I had a hard to struggle to bring them up you know in those days, we didn't get erm any family allowance or anything those days, and erm, so therefore he couldn't go, but he sort of got on and got his own factory, but my other son who's an electrician, one of the twins he's erm, he's got his City and Guilds he passed, he went, he was able to go to the school when the new schools were built you see, when Netteswell school was built he was able to go to night school and er learn all you see, then there was the one at Burnt Mill wasn't there, down the bottom? I mean Mm he was able to go and he, cos he passed his City and Guilds, he works for the Water Board so he gets the maintenance Oh for the Water Board so he's got quite a good job you know, but erm, I'm, we couldn't afford to put the other through the apprentice because I mean you hadn't got the money had you then No you couldn't do it, but he had every opportunity the other, the twin did to get through you know and he passed his City and Guilds, but Peter's got on alright, the other son who's got the factory, he's, he's busy got an electrical panels and all that he does, you know, he's quite good and my other son he works, he used to work at Burnt Mill, and he now has moved to erm er Stansted, he works at Stansted he works in the big food depot, that used to be years ago and he works there, he's been there ever since he left school, since except two, two years he had in the army you know for the conscription, but he's been there erm ever since he was fourteen and he's now about oh, forty something now he is, I'm not quite sure of their ages, I get muddled up I've got, eight, eight sons altogether, so, I've got quite a family dear. What was your old house in Nazeing like? It, it was a two bedroom old cottage it was, very, very nice with a big garden and all I had was erm one room downstairs and like er a kitchen, well er where the sink and that was it was more like a big room where the kitchen was and the two bedrooms upstairs, but only a door on one bedroom, you went up the stairs into a big open room you know where the bannisters all round you know what I mean, no door on it and just, another door, a bedroom door, that's all but I loved it you know it was a nice erm, not bad, but of course it was condemned it got so old and then they pulled it down and they built another house on it right next to where erm that shooting took pla you know they was having that shooting night just down that lane where I used to be Oh I used to live just down that lane, back lane and er that's where they er had that last week that episode with the police wasn't it, bogus police, yeah, yes that's where I and er it was a quite nice old house really I didn't like leaving it. How long did you live there for? Oh I li well I, I've had a lot of moves dear in my time I tell you I, first of all when I first got married I lived at Bishop's Stortford, then from Bishop's Stortford I went to erm Stansted in rooms cos I, you know we couldn't get a place and from there I had one of my sons oh hello time, eleven o'clock just struck what's the day? Today is Friday, yes, it's Friday the date today, what's the date today the eighth? The tenth the tenth, the tenth, tenth alright, that's alright, right righto. up the top she lives, oh dear what's the time? Just strike eleven, so it's not far wrong Erm, when the new town was first proposed and erm, and they you know said they were gonna build up houses and that, what did you think? Well I was pleased, I was pleased of it Mm really great it was, you know I didn't really think it would turn out as big as it has done you know, but it's turned out beautiful hasn't it really, yeah we was, I was thrilled especially when they built the new houses round the front we used to go and keep looking at them, little did I think I would get one, and the housing officer came one day and he said would you like one of the new ones, I said I would and it was four bedroom but we got, you see we've got the other bedroom over my daughter-in-law's, so me and hubby used to have the en right down a long passage and the bedroom was over like the sit you've got a bedroom over the sitting room like see and she erm, we used to have so the children didn't make a noise to disturb her so my hubby and I had that room, yeah, it was quite nice it was, nice house, I erm, you know, enjoyed being there, bringing up the family, you want plenty of room you've got a big family don't you really? So it, then I had erm, I brought up my husband's sister's daughter from when she was fourteen, I brought her oh, yes fourteen, I brought her up for nine years and br brought her up as my own daughter like because she got, got to be put away in a home and I didn't want her to have to go into a home so I, I brought her up you know we brought her up and sort of as, I lost my little girl she was with me like, see and she still comes to me like, she still calls but she calls me mum, mother like now, ha, you know all those years I had her, she's married and her family's grown up now and er she's got one daughter left, left at home who's just got engaged that's Mrs from er she lives, yes so, so that was my hubby's er sister's daughter she only had the one daughter and two brothers, but she, the brothers she don't hear nothing of them they just, you know they were gonna put her in a home, but we took her so she didn't have to go in a home, I didn't want her to have to go in a home Mm so we brought her up, brought her up, she lived with me until she got married you see dear. Yeah, did a lot of people have to go in homes in those days, or is it just like today? Well it's, it's more like more or less just like today, you know, if you, if you've got nowhere to go and they just put you there, but I mean now you can't get in very good can you really, not now, but erm, Pat since she's been on duty she's had a terrible trial, terrible she had to get one, help in this morning, get one of the floor next door, then we've had trouble one down further, but she's been put into erm Ashlyn now for five weeks, so she's out the way for a little while we've had an awful worrying time here though, it's absolutely been a pantomime cos this has just keeps er throwing herself on the floor, all the time she's doing it Mm and the warden was there in her dressing gown trying to get her up and she couldn't get her up this morning, so she had to get help, one of the workmen came along and helped from the top terrible to say though it is, yeah, never mind, they get over it What did the shops used to be like cos you used to have to go to the Old Town didn't you? Yeah well, there wasn't many shops there really dear, there were just the er fishmongers and greengrocers and the butchers and the, we used to have to go there to get, to queue up, you had to queue because there was no, not many shops to be there you see to serve you, it's altered a lot now, there's a lot more shops now and the doctors I used to have to queue right out the gate, the doctors a big long queue, there was only Dr surgery and then we had another doctor came that started down at erm the bottom of erm Harlow near where, where do they call that? Bottom part of Harlow, down by the Fire Station where do they, there used to be another doctor had a surgery down there Dr Oh I don't know but where, where it's in, it's Old Harlow it's in Old Harlow, but further down, right further down by the Fire Station, he used to have a surgery down there Was it Chippingfield somewhere round there? No Chippingfield's in, near the Post Office, no it's further Oh than that dear it's down the other end, the other side of Old Harlow, but he used to have a surgery there which he, you know, made it better after the erm, to ease up Dr surgery cos that was so packed and the shops were absolutely and you used to have to queue and queue for, to get your shopping, you couldn't, I used to cycle into Harlow and leave my cycle somewhere and then go along do my shopping, but it used to be two or three hours' job it was, you didn't get done till dinner time and then I used to call it a, a lady used to say call there that used to have the fried fish and chip shop on the corner of erm Harlow and I used to go there and have a cup of tea before I came home because I used to be so long shopping you couldn't get served you see, it's too many people, there was nowhere else for them to go, it was only Bishop's Stortford you had to go Mm it's a long way innit? see, yeah I mean it's a long way out isn't it, yeah you couldn't get there you see, mm Are you allowed to have pet pets here? Yes, I've got my cat, it's just gone out, yeah I've got a cat, yes he's a lovely little cat I've got and he's just gone out a little ginger and but I did have a dog but I, cos he, I had him several years here a beautiful little corgi he was and then I had to have him put to sleep because he had er water trouble, but then my doctor advised me that I, he said don't have another dog have a cat, so I had a cat, I've always had a cat though Mm I had two when I first came here, but erm, one came as a stray but this one I've got is a lovely little er ginger and white one he's, he's about somewhere but he's just gone out I should imagine been on the si sitting on the sideboard Do you go on holiday anywhere? Yes dear I went to erm, er the er holiday camp in October to erm, er with the Red Cross and I went with the, Charlie took me and I went in a car with a friend of mine we went to the Red Cross holiday in Patefield, but it poured of rain every day every day it poured of rain didn't October it was terrible, ever so cold, but we were well looked after you know and I enjoyed it and we had the wheelchairs to go around in on for the dancing, it was really great I thoroughly enjoyed it, I haven't been for two years I hadn't, but I went like in October, cos you're only allowed really every two years to go, that's all you're allowed really, but I thoroughly enjoyed it you know, it was nice Yeah really great. Did you go on holiday when you were younger? Did you take the family away or was it? We used to, we, I used to go when my husband was alive we used to go to erm Devon cos I had a brother living in Devon we used to go there, but er unfortunately I lost him when he was only fifty with a coronary, and so erm, in, cos and after that I lost my husband you see so cos we I've never been away like that before, not, not since, years ago that was, he's been gone twenty one years this Christmas sixteenth might be so, I've not been able to so I, I, I go with the erm, I went with the Red Cross this year the year before last I went erm er,Char Charlie took me away we went to er a chalet we stayed at and er a friend of mine we went there for a week had a week there, that poured of rain every day, this year it poured of rain every day Mm so we've had nothing but rain. Last night was a terrible night wasn't it? Yeah Pouring all night, yeah, did you want a coffee dear? No thank you Cos you can have one No it's alright Are you sure? Yeah erm, erm do you get a lot of benefits? Have you got a bus pass or anything like that? No, I don't have a bu I, I didn't, I didn't have a, you, I used to, no I didn't have a bus pass no cos I've been handicapped haven't I, no Mm I haven't dear, no I can't get a bus pass but I get the grant from the Council in er January twenty five pound we get to help towards the fuel bills you see, no. What do you think of the Council in Harlow? Very good, very, very good, no I think as I say the only thing I said to Mr I told him that I'm very upset because I've always been treated ever so fair by him I mean they've really been good to us, you can't say they're not, I mean no other Council I don't think is as good as Harlow Council, well I say that because I know by my friends who live away they're not er, they don't get half the benefits that they get here, I mean we are looked after aren't we? Yeah I know, I say that, and the, the only thing is I was upset over the Leah Manning, being taken off the ambulance you see and whether I will get back I'm hoping I will because erm he said he will let me know before Christmas so I think he will, he came to Leah Manning to visit me any rights to see me about it, so it was good of him really Yeah cos I mean they don't usually do they, but he did he came up there to see me Mm oh what did your husband do for a living? He used to be a crane driver dear for , yeah he used and I've got to, one of me sons now is a foreman for, well they're not now it's, it's sort of amal amalgamated with another firm now I think, but he does, he does erm, he's a foreman like now, he used to be a truck, crane driver and my, the very night that my hubby died on the following Monday he would of been working in Harlow, he got a new crane to take over in Harlow and he'd been working away from home for weeks and months of the year always away, coming home weekends and I used to have to cook and do his washing and pack him up for going off again Monday morning early, but he never was near home working then, and as I say the night before he went he was, he was gonna work on the Monday to in Old, to Harlow down where the new er place was for and it unfortunately cos he went. Have you ever had a job? Beg your pardon? Have you ever had a job? Yes I, after I lost my daughter I had to go into erm, into the factory to make aeroplane pieces at Burnt Mill cos I was so bad with my nerves after I lost her, er just afternoons I had to go and then I was taken ill I couldn't do it, well then after my erm, I got my family off to school I took a part time job in erm one of the factories making tea in the mornings for the office and coffees and that for the office and then in the afternoons I used to do the tea as well, I used to cycle there, I quite enjoyed it until my right hip started coming bad then I had to pack it in, but I was in there, I was there for about four years and I thoroughly enjoyed it you know making tea and that, I didn't have to take it round only collect the money to go round and collect the money, but used to have to put the trolley outside and they used to come and get their tea each one, of which they knew which was their mugs and cups ha, you know, I, I thoroughly enjoyed that job, really great You got any hobbies? Yes, stool making, you know I've got a stool here, I made that stool over there ages ago for me daughter-in-law and this one I cannot get it right I've, I've, it's, it's, I'm trying I've got to undo it again there, it's not right, I think it is because the cord's too thick, it's a very thick cord and I've not got enough stitches you know not enough strands on it, but I'm gonna do it, it'll be done before Christmas I've got to do it otherwise oh and I've made a big rug at the centre, which I shall have home before Christmas, a big woollen rug I've made, yes so, oh it's a beautiful rug it's with those er silver thing you push through the hole on the canvas Oh yeah and you put the cluster of wool in it and pull it back and it's like little bobbles of wool and er I've got a beige and a brown I've done it with it will look nice you know, it will come right here, it's a beautiful rug, quite nice, so I've been busy and I make coat hangers Mm I do those, knit coat hangers you know make the with the , when I'm not doing me rug I'm making them Yeah and the squares for the blankets, I can't crochet though, I'm no good at crocheting, I can't do any crocheting, I can knit but I can't crochet Is that blanket crochet, crochet? Yes that's been crocheted this one, yeah I can't do it, that, that one's a knitted one, but I can't erm I just can't crochet, I can knit I've tried, but I've tried I just can't do it I don't know why I take the hobby my plants, I've, I grow those violets from leaves, look behind Oh yeah that's all grown from leaves, just put the leaves in water and the little shoots come on them and then I put them in after some, when they've got their little roots on them and they grow, that's, that's one I've grown from, from just leaves and one in over there in the window I've grown from leaves. That pink one's lovely, what is it? That's a cyclamen, two I'd had me given that at our family party, we have a family party once a year Mm and er we do all the cooking between us and my, my sons they have a disco and all that they get Mm and this year they brought me the wireless and cassette Oh lovely last year I had a hoover, the year before that I had erm a teas maker, which I've got a Goblin teas maker they bought me Lovely yes, and er, that, that's one of the plants I had given me, yeah I have some lov I have some lovely presents you know really great they are, quite nice at the part we, we have a, the children they, they er have games for the children to start with we do for the grandchildren you see and then er we have the dancing and the erm disco, it was great, we have a lovely party every October we have and I have all my friends we had about a hundred and eighty this year I think, must of been Hatfield Broad Oak hall we hold it, over at Hatfield Broad Oak cos it's er nice hall there, you know it's, you know especially handicapped toilets and everything there it's beautiful, mm Yeah, good I don't think I've got any more questions, that's lovely No was it alright? Yes it was very good, you did very well, thank you. That's alr Right Mr erm Have you always lived in Nottingham? Well I live in in live in Nottinghamshire, born and bred at a place called which is it's about er twenty four miles North of Nottingham. A small mining town. Brought up well as I was actually born in the village and that's where I've come home to roost when I left the army. So you when did you join the army? Nineteen er s nineteen seventy two. I came out in nineteen eighty four. And th did you join Group Four then? Yes yes I was I had a month's terminal leave er I'd er I'd heard that there was a job going, er phoned them up on the on the Monday, had an interview Tuesday, started the Friday. So were you a sergeant when you started? Yeah. Yeah everybody starts off as a sergeant. And er you do you do probation for three months in in which time you're vetted thoroughly. And if your if your vetting doesn't come up to scratch, then you can be terminated, it's in your contract. And er I've been with them ever since, just come up to two year period. I've enjoyed it quite a lot. Seen a a lot of other things I wouldn't have seen if I'd have been working down a pit or behind a shop counter or something. Met a lot of er different people.. Is that the sort of thing most people ? Well at the moment with the the mining industry as it is, unless you've got had you've got or had a relative working at the pit, the local, you haven't got the s chance of in. When I left school er if you went to the pit, it was the last of the last jobs. But now to get into the pit it's one of the jobs to go to. I would say ninety five percent of people in the village are employed at the local colliery. Mm. Erm er . Erm what was actually you brief when you move onto the flats. Well our main brief was that we was to try and minimize and control the vandalism, or any property belonging to the county council. Er to make sure none of the empty flats was broke into, and items removed such as copper tanks, electrical fittings. To reassure the remaining tenants who were left behind, or moving out er Mm. Tt. What's the word? Well try and look after flats for the council. As . Erm make sure there was no vandalism done. But we found out that most of the vandalism was done in the daytime when we were away. And er reassure reassure the tenants that that that are left behind. So when did you actually move on to the flats? We started the contract in April of last year. I think it's the around about the first or the second of April. Er so that's over a year now. About what? Fourteen month fifteen month? Mm. So what's you what are what are your actual powers? Well we've got no s we've got no more powers than what a a normal person civilian has got. Er our main thing is, if we see something happ happening which we justifies erm the police being called, then we will call the police. But if we see an office that's being committed by y somebody breaking into an empty flat, or we actually see somebody breaking into a occupied flat, then as a as a citizen, you can enforce a citizen's arrest. . We've never arrested anybody yet, I think erm the uniform does the job. And it deters more people than u use actually having to er resort to different means. But erm the police react very quickly. If we say, There's somebody suspicious knocking about the flats, or, There's a person on such a walk doing something we think's a little bit er mysterious, then they'll sen they'll send somebody round as quickly as they can. So you've got quite a good relationship Oh we've got a fantastic relationship with the police. Because also we can act as eyes for them as well. Er I don't know but I would i I would reckon the crime rate since we've been on the flats, even though the the flats are emptying out,h h has dropped er dramatically. Erm as you know yourself you walk round the flats now, it's dead. There's hardly anybody about but if you was here a year ago, this was a little island on it's own little concrete island on it's own. And there was activity twenty four hours a day. You could go out to the walkways, you could talk to somebody twenty four hours a day. If you was here. So you think the community's certainly gone down since you ? In number-wise? Well in the way people act. Well you i it took a a while for us to be accepted about six month I would say six month . Because when they first saw us we was eve everything from the the D H S, to the police, to the probation office. Anything that could could check up on people and ru that's what we was called. Gradually the people realized that we was here to look after the flats. And we weren't gonna you know, bust the door down at six o'clock in the morning and do a drugs raid. Or other illicit things that's going on. And they accept us for what we are and we've got a good erm relationship with the the people w who are left in er the flat complex. Mhm. Er you said about breaking into them and things like that, erm er a lot of tenants we've spoken to er seem to be er they seem to thing there's a lot of flats. Er do you do you get a lot of breaking into flats? when we come we come on duty. Approximately we a we start on at six o'clock. By which time the tenants have come home from work or they've been out for a few hours, say they've been out from twelve till six. And they come home, they find that the the flat's been broke into, and that's the first thing we know about it. Er we've had one or one or two erm break-ins while during the night. But on such a large complex like this, we can't be everywhere at the same time. And er the the problem is we get round who who do you know who lives in what flat. Erm if we see you know, if we see somebody walking down a walkway, and he's got a stereo in his arm, arms should I say, and he puts it into a car then obviously it a it arouses our suspicion, we'll take a quick note of the car's registration number, and we'll pass the relevant information through to Police Station. It's up you know and they'll act on that. Erm we had one morning, one of our sergeants saw what he thought was a break-in. Was in in the . We got on on to the phone to Road Police Station, and within possibly two, three minutes, there was four, five police officers round there. And it turned out chap had been locked out and he forced one of his windows himself to get in. But they they surrounded the flat cos they thought that it was a bur a burglary was in process. So er we achieved something there, even if it you know it it put the frighteners up the chap, police looking out the windows and you know, saw our reaction when the police turn up, it makes them think again. Erm what actually happens if someone comes up to you in the night and says, My house has been burgled. What do you do? Well first thing we do is we'll if I've got two two sergeants at the flats, I tell the occupant to go back to the flat, and wait for the two s two sergeants turning up. They'll go back to the The two sergeants'll turn up. They'll go in with the with the occupant, at the same time we'll inform Road Police Station. And then erm it's up to Road Police Station to deal with it. If we find a flat that's been broke into. And it's an occupied flat, then we will not enter it or we will not enter it until we've had erm till Road Police Station's been informed, and then we'll work on their advice. And then they'll say, Right we'll have a bobby in there in ten minutes, or, We can't get anybody there till such and such, so what we will do is we will secure a door, until somebody can come and have a look at it. Erm if a window's been smashed, then we'll we'll get the window boarded up to secure the flat the best possible way. You do all that yourself do you? No we we we've got er a contact phone number and er a contractor comes in and boards it up. Or secures the door. If we can't put a clamp on it, then we we can't do a clamp. Say the doorframe's been busted, then er we've got authority to contact the board the people who board it up. And then they'll they'll get the flat secure. Now in what what other things go on in the flats that you get involved with? Er what other things go on in the flats? Fires. Erm unknown people have got their little things about setting chutes on fire, the rubbish chutes. What they normally do is they get some paper, they light it, they'll drop it, and it falls straight into the rubbish chute underneath. appropriate action. Er nine out of ten you can see it. Cos there's smoke. Well I mean first of all you'll smell it. you find out where it is, and you inform base which is here, that there's a fire, say in one of the chutes,and er the fire brigade will be informed. And the fire brigade'll turn up and deal with it. And we put in a report to the county council in the morning saying there was a fire. Erm we've had a couple of flat fires. There again er there was smoke seen coming out of a bedroom, so we first of all informed base again, that there's a fire, in a flat, secondly we did was break down the door. Cos we took it that there was somebody probably take it that there's somebody inside the flat. Until either the the emergency services turn up and say there's nobody in the flat. Or that the occupant turns up himself and says there's nobody in the flat. Er and this this case the there was a fire in a flat, the chap had gone out to work, we didn't know he'd gone out to work, so we broke First of all we informed the fire brigade was on the way, we broke down the door, quick look in the flat, best possible way we could look, and the fire brigade turned up and dealt with the flat. We secured the door. . Erm we've had one attempted well one arson attack in the the period which we've been on the flats. Er disagreement between er two partners er one partner set fire to another partner's flat, by smashing a window,setting alight the curtains. We were I was I was patrolling at the time, with me partner. We heard the glass being broken. So we we moved towards the sound of the glass, and there's there's two people in the the garden, so we went down to have a look at them. As we as I approached them, I saw flames coming from the the curtains. And the two people in the garden started to walk away. So rather than cause er an incident there and then, I informed my partner to follow them back to wherever they went, which time I got on the radio back to control,that we required the police and the fire brigade. Er but he followed them all the way back to a flat on th on the on the complex. The police came and dealt with them and the arrest was made. So therefore, in my mind, we saved probably forty, fifty family lives that night. And er it was a good night's work. The fire brigade eventually turned up, because the police had cancelled they tu turned them ou turned them out again. And and things settled nice and quietly and all the blue lights come flying down here, and so we had to they was about to chop down this blokes door and we said, Whoa whoa whoa. Said, The fire's out mate. And we showed them where the fire was, they checked that out. Because er under no c circumstances if we have a fire, do we say the f we put the fire out out ourselves. Even if we've had a fire and if it's burnt itself out then we will we will call the fire service to make sure it is out. And they're the specialists we're not. Erm do you have much trouble with erm squatters and vagrants and . When we first moved in, April last year, it was a bit bit cold. Problem with the stairwells is that they're heated. The heating pipes coming through for the the central heating and the hot water. We had one or two, one or two vagrants knocking about, and we just asked them to move on, and they moved on. We've had one or two juveniles that's run away from home sleeping in the in the outhouses. There again, rather than wake them up, and the they do a runner, we get on to the phone, tell the police that there's a a juvenile or what looks like to be a juvenile, sleeping in in part of the flats but where it's a a stairwell, an ou outhouse, erm even under the stairs, then they'll come along and check it out. Nine out of ten it's a runaway. And they'll just, they'll eit you know, just hand it over to the police and that's as far as we'll go. Mm. Erm erm when you're patrolling the flats erm have you ever come erm into any sort of physical danger yourself? You and your your patrol? No but erm I've had one or two people swear up to us. Er I had or trying to provoke us, and erm what our lads have been informed is rather than take a situation on like that, it's better just to turn around and walk away. If they call you names or they spit at you, or or whatever, it's better to walk away and live another day than to get your head kicked in and end up in hospital. Erm y you get a lot of well we did get a lot of verbal abuse from the young the youngsters. But there again you you just let it go in one ear and out the other ear. That's why you've got to have somebody who's a mature natured person, for this for this k kind of job. You know probably if you got a younger person, he probably would have been after him, square up to him, and erm . Cos if you ever squared up to one of these or anybody in the flats, people'd just come out of the out of the woodwork. And as far as as er physical threats, what, somebody actually being hit? No. I mean you read you read a lot in the press erm about people being mugged on the flats and er break-ins and all this sort of thing. Are they actually as bad as the press makes out, the flats? Well before we came on the flats I would imagine they was. But now we're on the flats, no. There again, how long does it take to mug a person? Ten, fifteen seconds. And you can do a lot in fifteen seconds, you could murder somebody in fifteen seconds. Erm nobody's gonna mug a person if they see us coming, or if they see a bobby coming. Nine out of ten they'll wait until we've gone passed, or even the police have gone passed, before they'll commit an offence. But since we've been on the flats, there's probably been half a dozen muggings. Some in the daytimes, some at night. But there again, it's people walking through the flats, who don't live on the flats, that get mugged. Erm or people attending the blues, walking from one end to the other. You know people who's coming in from o the outside to come on to the flats, they're the people at risk. Erm but er we've had one or two people come to us, and report that they've been mugged, there again we get straight on the phone to the police. And let them them deal with it. We we'll do the reporting and that's that's as far as we'll go. But if we there again if we see somebody that's being mugged, and we think that we can assist, or we can deal with it, then we will, you have to take every situation as it comes. Y erm it's like you don't go running up to something if you're gonna come worse off. If there's half a dozen of them and there's two of you, and there's one person being mugged, erm then it's better to to stand on and watch, and report b back to the base here, who can inform the police, who can get the necessary assistance out to deal with it. And er that's what we do. Erm how do you think the people in the flats erm look at er you patrolling them? Well I think they're helping us erm possibly if this system had been started a few years ago, then possibly flats complex, wouldn't have got the bad reputation it has today. Because I go home and I people say, Oh where are you working? I will say, Oh I'm doing a job at flats. And, Oh! flats like then. as if you walk round with a shotgun armoured tank. And I say, No it's a quite pleasant place to work. And they say, Ah come off it, we've heard about it, we've read it in the papers. one small aspect in the paper of , can into a page a full page. But whereas say something that happens say Well say take for example where I live in . Er somebody being attacked there might make a paragraph. It's it's it's er quietened down, and people do accept us. And people have stopped us and have said, If this i if you'd have been on on the flats, say six, ten years ago, erm it wouldn't have got the reputation it has now. Because the senior members on the flats that have been living here since it was put up, when they came to live on complex, they reckoned it was the place to come and live. And they was proud to come and live in it. But er things have deteriorated. Till we've got the situation we've got now. Do you erm have you got to know people a bit on the flats? We we we know one or two people erm more or less by face, not by name. Er there was quite a few people moved out now. There was a a an old lady down we talked to, she's out most nights. There's one or two people knocking around that'll talk to you. Erm we more or less know the young the young thug element as such. Er and they seem to stay well clear of us when they see us walking round. Yes we know quite a few. In those areas. you said you got quite a good rapport. Well I think we have now. Yes. Er without having a good relationship with the people in the flats, er if I mean some people if they say see something going off, they'll turn their you know, turn their back and they don't want to know. There again, on the other hand, if some one or two other people see something going off, they'll come and tell us. As I've said before, we can't be all over the flats at the same time. So we rely on, to a certain degree, on a bit of help from the tenants. Now, how do you patrol the flats? Erm do you go out in teams? Well at the moment we've just started a new patrol programme and er we two two sergeants wal patrolling the the walkways. And I had one sergeant downstairs patrolling the er street level. Er The sergeant downstairs, if he sees any trouble or he finds something that's going off or bumps into something, then he can radio back into base again. And then we can take appropriate action from there. Erm the two lads on the flats, there's two of them together, so that anything that they they meet or come up against, they can handle themselves. But in our time, it's very quiet now so we've we've moved into a different routine again, where I have two two sergeants out at one time, changing over er frequently so they don't get bored. Is it is there not that much to do now in the flats? Well yeah there there's a there's a lot to do, erm with half the flats being empty and Or say two thirds of the flats being empty. Erm you've got quite a few people walking through. Erm these people are possibly the element we don't want on the flats. Cos they're walking through the area and they'll if they've had a few pints , Let's go down Oh we'll walk through Flats and we'll smash one or two lights up, smash one or two windows. Erm I wouldn't say it's it's gone quiet at night, we've got to be more aware now anyway. Than what we had we was doing last year. As I said last year, there were quite a few people out on the walkways, so it was very rarely you got anybody walking through. Now two thirds of the residents have gone, there's a lot of walkways open, there's a lot of windows there to smash, there's a lot of you know,try setting fire setting fire. So we've got to be more aware during the like what we call the silent hours. Erm just really. Erm d now the flats are quieter, do you find there are as many blues on the flats? Well erm At the moment we've got one one blues on. Erm and that is not half as what it was last year. But then again, we can say that we've had a quiet week Saturday and Sunday, or from Friday till through till Monday morning, it can be packed out with people just visiting the blues. Do they do they seem to create much trouble, these blues? Yeah. Er as I said before, if we get some verbal abuse from people going to the blues, then we know that it was outsiders coming in. they just accept us for what we are, they know that we're not gonna upset their lifestyle, we're not gonna start raiding their place at six in the morning. They accept us for what we are, and that's it. Mm. So you've got no powers to go sort of talk about their noise,? No. If somebody comes and reports to us that erm that the music's loud, all we'll do is refer them to Road Police Station. And let them do . Erm do you have erm much to do with the housing people? That are on the flats. Yeah we've got the daily You mean the council staff? Yes. Yeah we've got the daily contact each morning with one of the, one of the er council employees, they'll come up approximately between eight and nine, and we'll hand over any incidents reports that have been made during the night. And we'll er inform them of erm the state of the flats during the night, whether it was quiet busy, erm anything we've seen knocking about, erm and things in general. So does it work quite well for them? Oh yes we've they are subscribing, and if we wasn't keeping a good erm a good liaison with them, then I don't think we'd be here now. Erm wh wh what what's it like working on Flats, I mean, have you worked anywhere similar? No I haven't worked anywhere similar, in in this employment. Er but working on Flats,taken to the job. Erm when I came on to the flats I came with an open mind and I was gonna you know take things as I as I met them. Erm we treat everybody the same, we look after everybody as I say, the best we can. Erm and it's just a normal job. Yes t to a certain extent, I expect. Erm there's nothing hard about it, there's nothing easy about it. Erm the best thing about this job is, you don't know what's round the corner. As I say one day it might be quiet, and the next day, something might happen. Erm since we've we've worked the flats I think, the the lads who've worked up here have dealt with a a very broad erm a very broad aspect of incidence. And th they will they will have dealt with more incidents up here than I would imagine any other erm place of employment that they'll go to. And it probably beds them in slightly to go off to somewhere else. Is there anything you haven't worked with on the flats yet? Well we haven't had a murder, and we haven't ha a rape. And er erm that's about it I think. But er who knows we're probably here for another two years, we might find a dead body somewhere. Erm it's a bit frightening when you if you find somebody dossing down somewhere. You can see a body and like, Oh what's that? and then you you know, you're a little bit er relieved when it moves. . Or it stands up or you know you you go and put it in the cupboard, and all of a sudden there's a there's a there's a face looking at you, you know. Yeah, you're hoping Your heart er beats rising. I think personally erm I mean yo would you like to live on the flats? No there's no gardens. Of such. Erm the tenants are not allowed to keep animals. But er as you know looking round the flats, they do. Erm and I But there again, if it was a controlled access to the flats, and people wasn't allowed to wander through the flats. Er probably yes. Erm but then again, if anybody's got any kiddies, which I have, it's not it's not a Well I don't reckon it it is a place to bring children up in. Erm if there was probably me and me wife on me own, and it was a co controlled access, and there weren't people walking through,probably come and live here. What do you mean by controlled access? Well er if take it as if threw a b a fence all the way round the the flats. Well that this starts off by keeping the outsiders out. They do most of the damage, knocking on doors, daub writing all over the place. So what I mean by controlled access is nobody comes on i within to this flat complex, without er the se the security team knowing. So say for example you was a tradesman. And you was say I'm going to come to the exit point, I'm going to say come in here. And unless has told us that you're coming, then you don't get on the flats. That's one way to keep traders out. I mean how many times has somebody knocked on your door, Oh I'm Joe Bloggs I've come to sell dusters? You know,. And people don't want it. Er it's like kids or people walking through from Road to Road. They'll ni they'll nip through the flats. They'll deposit their rubbish, you know. If they've had a few beers, they m they may leave something else behind. People don't want it. Erm and that's what I mean by access. Controlled access. Erm aren't complexes, in my view in my view only, in complexes of this size, it should be a controlled access. And er you just don't get bad people wandering round the flats. The only people you get on the flats, is the people who live on the flats, and the people who's been invited into the flats. Erm and that's that's my view. And that's right down here. Wh what what's this ? And this is all sealed up as well is it? Yeah it's all sealed up. All these doors. We used to have a a dosser here. Yeah. Frightened the living daylights out of him when I opened the cupboard. You say you don't get any trouble on No no. See it's all nailed up now. I opened it one morning, there was somebody looking at me . You were saying about blues at er night. Is that weekends is it? Er you get what what you call a small blues during the week, but Friday, Saturday, Sunday and Monday, you can expect er large blues. Is that on the flats or is it the . Well you got one on the , which has got nothing to do with us. Then you've got one on Walk. Let's have a look round here, check this. Yeah. So what they're doing now, is sealing the walkways off. It's a bit of a So you can't get through. It's a bit of a pain in the neck, cos we can't walk round you see. the whole walk's been sealed off? Yeah the whole walkway's been sealed off. Which one's that, is that the ? It's erm d der I think. And after fourteen months up here I can still get lost. Yeah. and whereas before we could walk round in a on a circular route, Yeah that's Walk. So you have to you're just doubling back on yourselves . Yeah just d doubling back on ourselves. But erm er when the W Winter comes on, the wind starts whistling round this place, it er cuts into your ears a bit. You can feel the cold. You not have any any trouble with vagrants on these empties? Well we've had one or two, as I say, I found a chap in number fifteen, the outhouse, I just asked him to move on. Er next night so I frightened him, I was gonna nail it up while he was inside, and he soon come out . You've not had anybody tear the tin down and No well not as far we've we've found. Er nobody tearing the tin down. . You'd you'd probably come in the daytime, and you'd find some of the tin's been ripped off a bit, you might find a find a corner's been ripped off. And then you know, when you check up on it, the following day, you probably find the council's been back in and forgot to secure it, so we've got s a nail and some nails and a hammer, and we'll er just re-secure it and let the the council know in the morning. Walk, completely empty. It's all this one side of the flats isn't it ? Yes it's all this side, er phase er one, two and three. How do you find it on the parts that are still populated, I mean the Well they're more or less no different to what we're walking down here now. You might see somebody scurrying about later at night or in the morning. It's not very lively? No. No. Creeping off to work. It's the main problem we get to face in the daytime now, is the windows being smashed. And obviously you can er ascertain that er, when more windows get smashed, the locals are gonna start complaining to the council, that it looks a bit of an eyesore, even though it's an eyesore now, it'll be a greater eyes eyesore then. But we're not on the flats in the daytime, Yeah. So there's nothing we can do about it. And most of that goes on in the daytime Mm. does it? And this is Walk. Walk yeah. Number six is the loos. You can walk down here,don't walk down here at nighttime if it's er if it's chock-a-block. Alright then. The lady lives over the blues must have a set of earphones somewhere. And she's got three kiddies so she moves out at nighttime. Yeah we don't erm antagonize them. If we see there's quite a few on the walkways, and if we know that they're outsiders then we'll we'll turn round and we'll walk back the other way. It's better to walk b back, and look at them for a d you know, from afar, than Yeah. try and push your way through. On to. There's a cupboard there that's been ripped open, I mean is that just part of the vandalism that goes on? Well no, knowing our it's probably the er electricity board's come along, to read the meter, somebody's put a screw in it, and they've got a crowbar and just opened it up. That's not vandalism. quite a lot of flights around. Oh yes. Our biggest, biggest er threat when we first come up here, was the dog muck which was on the ground. I think we've walked past the one that's been set on fire. I dunno. You you walk round the flats, and you know, you walk round them for fourteen months, and all of a sudden you have to stop and think where you are. play area. Er round about Christmas last year, this flat down here, bottom of , they had all their present in there. Ready for the Christmas party, and some er some fiend broke in an nicked all the presents. Obviously it was an inside job, cos nobody else knew the presents were there. Did they get them back? No no. There was a lot of toys and that appeared on the flats all of a sudden. Was that over night that? In daytime, in the daytime. Anything happens on the flats, it'll happen in the daytime. Cos they know they know that we're not here. Let's have a look along, along . Come right on the ramp you see, we can look on the back of these flats. Yeah. Right. What walks this? Is this Er I think. Have you had much vandalism on the play centre stuff that No not not mu much as what you can call vandalism, you know people spraying paint on the tinned up windows and that. look down the back here, see if there's anything. The boy's club, No. Nothing to do with us. Of course we can see the back of the flats over on and er wrong on and . You've got to look at them from different angles, see if there's any smoke bellowing out from anywhere, or somebody's hanging out of a window. You were saying about you had a a bomb scare once, what walk was that on? That was on . What actually happened there? Well I don't know really. All I know is the reports which the lads filed. Er a chap er reported to our lads that there was a suspicious, something suspicious wired up to his back door. Er they went, had a look, took the appropriate action and er phoned the police and handed it over to the police. Er which in turn the police brought the bomb disposal out. And they dealt with it. It was actually a fake wasn't it. Yeah it was they call erm a hoax. A hoax er improvised explosive device. if we'd kicked it, something like that. They the the leads carried out the proper procedure, what's laid down for them. And they did quite well. The police praised them. I think even when the police turned up, they hadn't got a clue what to do with it so, it was a good training training day from This leads down down onto the stairwell. Terrace down there, and Walk there. Do you actually go down the stairwell? Oh yeah, we go down the stairwells. Drop onto the walk level at night time. You say it gets a bit busier about two o'clock. Yeah we get the people going from over to the . There's a couple up here at number twenty, a deaf and dumb couple. We were walking round here about three o'clock one morning, there was water pouring all out the the seams of the concrete. Went upstairs and there was water pouring out the electrics. Tried the alarm, their alarm like, obviously they hadn't switched it on. So we had to get the bobbies down to kick the door in, and you can imagine at three o'clock in the morning, some some deaf and dumb couple, there's this big coloured bobby le leaning over and waking them up. The first thing they do is switch the bloody lights on. There was about four inches of water inside. All we heard was one scream for a bobby like you know , and they turned the lights on. Had all the pipes burst? Well what had happened apparently, the er ballcock inside the system had stuck. And the er overflow wasn't working properly. Do you get much trouble like that with water and stuff. Oh we we deal we deal with all sorts on here. Er water, lights, for any you know the light bulb goes, first thing they do they come running to us, you know, me lights are out. Well, Right love we'll inform you know we just phone up and let them know what's happened. This all goes on the report in the morning. Yeah it all goes on the report in the morning. Flat over on , bottom left, that's where we had the arson attack. It's all tinned up now. And as I as I told you before, we was on the main concourse, heard the glass smashed, we come down a stairwell on , come round the back, saw the two, or saw two persons in the back garden, asked them what they were doing buy which time the the curtain went up in smoke, well up in flames. I dealt with the fire while the other sergeant followed them back to . And the police come and we handed everything over to them. The flat was alright then ? Yes well we save, we possibly saved that time, most of was was completely er occupied, so if we hadn't have seen the fire, there could have been forty lives or forty families at risk there. I think it's anyway, I keep forgetting where we are. You can imagine Yeah I think that is . Yeah you can s you can imagine walking round here for fourteen months, and then one w one back of one walkway looks like another walkway. Have you had any trouble, I mean, I mean I don't know if you've seen erm but does to a deterrent and there's trouble with motorbikes on the walks, have you found any trouble with peo Yeah you you you get one or two people with the motorbikes. All we do there again is, we'll tell them to stop, if they don't stop we'll get on the on the the phone to the polices and let them deal with it. Yeah. We got erm no authority to Hiya. stop them. Alright then? Yeah. And just get the registration number,pho phone it through to the police and let them deal with it. Yeah. down on to I think. Yeah I can see it's cos I can see name plate. . Alright. and , two out on a limb. Alright then? she's gone. Has she gone has she Went this morning. this morning. Yeah you'll miss her. Aye. Got nobody to talk to down here. I've got no spy in the corner. Yeah Beatrice has moved out. Is this an old lady Yes we got her moved out a little bit earlier. She she was a sitting . She didn't know what she was tit entitled to claim for. So when we got the council's bloke to have a word with her, went to saw he a fortnight ago, and she's moved today. Last time I seen he on Monday, she was happy as punch she was going. Have you had any break-ins or anything like that recently?been very quiet. It's been very quiet with break-ins. We've had one on . Let's just check No it's been quiet on break-ins at the moment. Probably er you know people's probably got a bit of money so they don't need to break in to anybody. one on Walk. But that was a bit dubious. See there again we can come on here, and we can look down the back of . There again make sure nobody hanging out of a window or somebody doing summat daft, walking a to along top of roofs. Have you ever caught anybody on the roofs. Yeah we've seen one or two up there, but all we do is to tell them er to get down. If they want to to fall off that that's their problem. Er y you know especially if if if they're living in the flat, you know above. Er we've got authority to pull them off. Is it you were telling me about you you you caught kids sniffing methane was it? Yes that was over on walk. We passed that way back. Yeah there was about three kids three kids in a in one of these cupboards, and they were sniffing butane gas. I phoned up the bobbies, told them about it, and the bobbies the isn't a lot much they could do. They've come down and give the lads tell the lads off. But by time they come down, the lads had gone you see so. Waste of time. Obviously that had a fire risk to it as well. Well it does I mean with these light being fluorescent, they give off a small charge, when the you know when the lights come on. You've only got to have the gas build up and bang. That's what happened apparently at , about a fortnight afterwards. Er couple couple of lads, sniffing butane, and somebody struck a match. And they went bang. We went a lot quicker than what we normally walk round in. We normally take it a bit slower. I've walked down Shall we go down onto s ground floor. like this. Right down on to Street now. St street level. between the flats and come out the other end. I mean what what sort of things happen down on the ground ground level? Oh you might get er an abandoned vehicle. see a vehicle that you you recognize is not off the patch, they'll they'll radio it through to to the base, to our base. Lads'll get on phone and the bobbies'll stick it through computer. computer. Do you get many abandoned cars? One or two, we used to we had one or two when we first came up here. But it's all quiet now. vote against it because the future of our union and the interests of our members is at risk. Let's take it and prevent a constructive relationship with the T & G developing into an unworkable alliance. I was gonna say unholy but I took it out, I thought it was a bit strong. Let's stop wasting our time and effort on going down this road to ruin. We don't need immediate reaction to UNISON or anyone else. What we should do is show that we're the best union by effectively representing our members, and if others want to join us, then they can, but on our terms. I move rejection of the statement. Southern Region? , Southern Region. President, Congress. The General Secretary has told us that the documen the special document on cooperation with the T & g was carefully written. It was so carefully written that I've read it three times and I don't think it says anything. This union has got a long history of, this union's got a long history of amalgamations, some conducted more successfully than others. This is not an amalgamation we're considering, it's not a merger, it's an enormous undertaking. But it's something we cannot afford not to be involved in. We cannot afford to pussyfoot around with it, we cannot afford the time not to be on the move, on the move because that's the only way our members are gonna dictate what they want. There will be a price to be paid, but it's not to be undertaken at any price. There are many sacred cows with within this organization that must be preserved, principally our regional structure, our regional financial structure, er is one of the main things that we have to preserve. My own personal opinion, regardless of what other people think about sectionalization, is that our sectional structure is something which was wi er built up, at times with difficulty and prices have been high and pay has been high. But it's something that we need to preserve strongly. The two organizations are s er so large that you can't join 'em together with two pieces of sticking plaster and three tin tacks. There must be created a new and vibrant organization to meet the challenge of the twenty first century and beyond. To our colleague from London, let me say I happen to be a boilermaker, not because I'm a dinosaur with me head in the past, but because that happens to be the occupation that I follow and that's what I am. But let me say that in saying that I'm a boilermaker, I have always been, I am now, and I will always be proud to say that I'm a boilermaker. But at the same time I'm proud to say that I'm a member of the T an er of the G M B a member of the G M B. I'm proud to say that I'm a trade unionist, and I'm proud to say that I'm a Socialist, and if I'm gonna remain that, and if we're gonna carry that message forward, we've gotta be on the move, we've gotta do it, we've gotta carry it forward, we can't afford to muddle our way through. We've gotta have a direction, and it's not about who gets the best jobs and who gets the best power positions, it's about dictating an agenda by the members for the members in the interests of our members, the T & g 's members and all trade unionists in this country. I support the paper. Northern Region? President, Congress,, Northern Region, supporting the special motion. And we will try to be sensible in this debate. Mr President, since nineteen twenty four and the great amalgamation which formed the G M W, it has been the ambition of many within the G M W and the T & g to complete the task and bring together the tru two great general unions to form one super union. Over the years many obstacles have arisen to halt these dreams, yet still for many the ultimate objective remains. In recent years those ambitions of merging the T & g and the G M B have received fresh support. The decline in membership, the economic recession, has damaged all the trade unions and has forced us all to examine all prejudices, to look above the sectional interests and wherever possible do all we can to protect our movement. Congress, for all these reasons, the Northern Region support a Special Report. However, at our pre-congress meeting, many reservations were expressed, the most important of which was concerned at the timing of any merger and about how the new union would be controlled. Many asked, is it the right time for the G M B to even consider merging with the T & g , particularly given the fact that over the past thirteen years the T & g has lost over fifty percent of their membership and now stands in great financial crisis. These issues are far- reaching and fundamental to our union. They require urgent attention by the C E C and must be addressed before any talks are conducted with the T & g . By supporting this Report the Northern Region does not support a merger at this time. Instead, we are asking for a frank and open debate within our own union and on that basis, and on that basis alone, will the Northern Region support the Report. South Western Region? , South Western Region, speaking in support of the Special Statement. In supporting this document I believe that we have to look realistically to the future and recognize that one general union would benefit trade union members in the U K far better than continuing to be in competition. In recent years, cooperation, not competition, has proved that the G M B and T G W U can work together for the advantage of all our members. We know that throughout the region there has been closer contact between our two unions, hosting joint conferences and campaigns with distinct advantages for all. Conference, with unemployment on the increase and trade union membership on the decline, trade unions must move forward with wider appeal, with a new concept of unionism for the future. But colleagues, although my region supports the document, with such an important issue, caution must be our by-word as some regions have had more success than others. On this basis, the South Western Region supports the C E C Statement. Lancashire? Conference,, Lancashire Region. President, Conference, Lancashire Region supports the document, but with reservations. I'll talk about the reservations in a few minutes, but the Lancashire Region supports any amalgamation initiatives with any union which is here in the country. Indeed, that's already our policy. But, and it's but, supporting the document today does not give the C E C the green light to rush into any amalgamation with the Transport and General Union and carve up the G M B. Now colleagues, I've been a member of the G M B for twenty five years. I've been an activist for over twenty years in this organization. I've been coming to conference for the last fifteen years to help build the grand union which we've got today and I'm not gonna sit back and watch this carved up, for nobody, for nobody. A lot of talks, a lot of talks, a lot of consultation is the order of the day. We don't want any hidden agendas. The cards have gotta be firmly put on the table. Everybody's gotta be kept informed of the developments as the merger and the talks start to unfold. I'm gonna come back to the reservations, because if this amalgamation with the Transport and General Workers goes through, there's gonna be the inevitable casualties. Yes, casualties within this organization, and nobody in this hall today can escape the possibility of the knife. Long time officials, lay officials, staff at the organization, you might as well face up to the fact colleagues, a lot of you will have to go. There's gonna be mass redundancies within the organization, mass redundances, from the shop stewards through to the general sect. Regional regional offices, regional offices is gonna close. There's only gonna be the need for one hea one one head office. We're gonna have a surplus of national officers. Some people say we've got them now. No no, just behave yourself. We're gonna have a surplus of organizers and, dare I say it, one of the General Secretaries is gonna be made redundant. Unless we take the cuts on board, it's gonna be a waste of time discussing the possibilities of the amalgamations in the first place. Cuts are gonna have to be made. And I want to remind you of the history of when amalgamations take place, because a number of people have touched on that very point this morning. The larger union swallows up the smaller union, and let's get it straight, the T & g are not taking the G M B over. We're talking about an amalgamation. Yes, look at a possible amalgamation, recognize the many difficulties which lie ahead, but remember also that the members and the activists within the G M B need to be kept fully informed of what the C E C are doing. I don't want to listen to any more of the media speculation telling me what's happening to our union. We have got to get involved. To finalize, colleagues, you've read the book, now you can see the vision. The invasion of the body-snatchers. The D an the T & g and the G M B. Yorkshire Region? President, Congress, colleagues. Thanks , the bugger's pinched part of me speech. This Report highlights some of the changes that trade unions have already experienced over the recent years in attempts to explore a new style of trade unionism that is in tune with the needs of working people. A new style that will allow us to reach the year two thousand with a structure that is suitable for th a new century. The document details recent experiences of closer contact with the T & g . It refers to exploring the scope for reducing, or eliminating, duplication of efforts and resources. This exploration of methods aimed at reducing expenditure, while at the same time improving our service, must be continued. And if these explorations conclusively point to an amalgamation with the T & g or any other union, then so be it. But, before we consider any amalgamation with the T & g , we must ensure that our own house is in order. We must ensure that we know in which direction we are going. We must decide how the G M B will cope with dramatic changes that will have, and will take place, in the workplaces that we represent. We must examine in fine detail our own structure. How we re serve our members, communicate with our members and ask ourselves the question, do we give them what they want? Have we coped with the very different needs demanded in small groupings of workers based in small shops, or residential homes, or private sports centres, small offices or even individuals working on their own? Our traditional recruitment base, large factories, are becoming a thing of the past. Fourteen years of Tory rule has seen to that. They have butchered our manufacturing base. To attract this new category of workers to the G M B our own of servin servicing, will have to change. Quite possibly, many of these people will not be represented at their workplace by a shop steward or lay representative. They will need advice direct from the nearest G M B office. The advice that they need will in all probability be a different nature to the normal required in large workplaces. To make the G M B relevant advice is going to have to be available over the telephone. With the advances in information technology, answers to many questions could be delivered in minutes, not just on industrial issues, like how cold does it have to be before we stop work, or how heavy a load should I lift, but other questions not related to work that we have not always answered in the past. Questions related to more social issues, income tax, social security etcetera, could be answered using this system. G M B employees would need training enabling them to become experts in this field. Perhaps eventually small drop-in offices would be open in large towns or cities, offering instant face to face access. Of course, these activities would run parallel to our existing system of servicing our more traditional workforce. I note that the C E C proposes to report back in nineteen ninety four G M B Congress with an indication of what form the new union resulting from any such amalgamation might take. The Report will hopefully address many of these issues that I have raised. Proposed changes to the way in which we have traditionally served our members. Adapting to new times, releasing new concepts. This enables the G M B to say without fear of contradiction to any new partner, our house is in order, our structures are in place. This is the way forward. Colleagues, I look forward to the Report to Congress in nineteen ninety four. Thank you. Birmingham Region? Colleagues,, Birmingham and West Midland Region. The Birmingham Region fully supports the C E C document and the amalgamation with the T & g , or any other trade union that will fit in and complement our organization. It would be difficult indeed to argue against the T & g being allowed to merge into the G M B. This organization represents peoples who work in the same type of companies, very often within the same workplaces that we work. The saving in officer time, shop steward time, and the fact that we fight one another for the same people to join our organization, would be savings great indeed. The members who've joined the G M B over the past, joined the G M B because in their opinion this was the best trade union in the U K and we are very very proud of our heritage. And what we wanna say to the General Secretary and the C E C that during the talks that there is one thing which must be maintained, and that is the structure of the G M B. The T & g comes to join us on our terms. And if you thought you had a fight last year over bi-annual congresses, you wait until you try and do anything that will affect our structure in the future. I'll keep this brief. I think I've made the relevant points that others may have missed. Most of what I wanted to say has already been said. The Birmingham Region supports. Ask the General Secretary to respond, C=conference , General Secretary, responding on behalf of the C E C. Er, perhaps just the two motions first. Two five five, the reason why the Executive asked for withdrawal was because it's moving us a bit too fast along this track, and it's moving us in a particular direction before we've had the time to think about whether that's the right direction to go. It may be that a federated structure is either the best long-term, or the best short-term, structure. But we haven't got there yet, and to give the answer before we've really considered the question is probably the wrong way round. We're not diving into anything, in fact all we're asking really is inviting you to agree that the C E C might go for a collective paddle with the T & g to see the temperature of the water. So I hope, in my remarks, and I hope in the general tone of the debate, there's enough to reassure London Region that we need to move forward at a careful pace. We'll certainly ensure that the prospect and possibility of a federated structure is one the matters which is considered by the C E C during the next few months, and will form part of the Report that comes back to Congress next year. Er, the other motion is of course pointing to so many of the changes that are taking place in our industrial society which prompt us into building a new union. I hope that two two eight can be referred so that that discussion can be taken into account in determining the needs of members in the new world, and therefore the design of the new union. Now, on the Report itself, and just a few quick points. The idea of course the vision is to create a better union, not one that is exactly like us because er, difficult for me to say so, but we have got the occasional fault here and there. Not one which is exactly like the T & g . I won't even comment on their faults because er it might be reported, but something which is better than either. So how do we do it? Well, if we're going to move forward to that sort of union, there are really only three unions in this country that can be used as the base for that new structure, that new organization. G M B is one, T & g 's another and there's a third which I'm not going to name, but most of you can probably guess. If they want to join us in this enterprise, so much the better. It would make a better spread across the number of industries and services and if, if they join us, it would help us all considerably. Several delegates have talked about care. That's absolutely right and that's why the caution is there in the statement. The danger with all mergers is that two and two ends up by equalling three. The new union is less than the sum of the other two. Our task is to try and make sure that two and two come out at five and the members get a better deal from the new union than they got from either of the amalgamating unions. Timescale. Well, there've been some silly things said about this in the Press, and one or two by our colleagues elsewhere. This is not an enterprise that can be completed in a few months. If we were just gonna bolt together the two unions then that may be able to be done in a couple of years or so, but if we're trying to build something better, then we're talking about a project that takes place over several years. And that's why it's important that there needs to be an open debate, both within the union, and there needs to be a proper flow of information from the Executive in these discussions to the branches and to the members to tell them what's going on. But of course then we get to an almost impossible task. I wish I had a pound for every time I have denied holding a meeting with the T & g . Those meetings haven't taken place but of course no-one believes it because mis-information is much more exciting than the truth. We will send regular reports. We hope the branches and members w w will believe those reports because they will be the truth, and not some of the more highly coloured statements which I'm sure will be put around from time to time. We're only suggesting a start on this project but the attitude of mind, our mind, in taking that particular step is important. Several people have been er kind enough to remind me as General Secretary, and other people, that we're all expendable. And so we are. We've really gotta start this project by thinking what is in the interests of the members. What is the best way forward for them. trade unionism has been failing in this country for the last fourteen years. There's no point in wrapping it up. We've gotta change that failure round into success. So the starting point is what is best for the members. We'll come to the personalities and the positions later on along the track, but first of all it's got to be the members. And there will be changes. There must be changes. But they will have to be the subject of consultation and debate and I guess that some of the debates will be really quite lively. So the beginning an important project. I hope that on the basis of the assurances given, two five five can be withdrawn. I hope two two eight can be referred so that the content and discussion and the Report it asks for can be part of these discussions. Support the Report and let's see if we can succeed in what must be the greatest enterprise in the trade union Movement since the nineteen twenties. Thank you. Thank you very much indeed . Could London agree to the withdrawal of the two five five? , London Region. Listen carefully to what the delegates have said on the Report. I note most have got gr some reservations, quite a lot of reservations o on the issue. All I can say is when you read that document carefully it's an open cheque for the C E C. They can go and come back next year and give you a date for a merger. says no, we're not gonna do that. But still if you read that carefully it doesn't say he ca that they can't do it, the C E C. So I urge you to vote for the motion two five five. C E C position is therefore asking Congress to oppose two five five. All those in favour? Against? Two five five is lost. Motion two two eight. C E C are asking for reference. Midland Region accept reference? Thank you very much. Does Conference accept reference? Thank you. Special Report. All those in favour? Against? That's carried. Thanks very much indeed colleagues. We now turn to a number of motions on G M B services. Motion two two seven, Shop Stewards. Lancashire Region to move. G M B Services, Northern Region to move. Two three one Publicity, Liverpool Region to move. Shop Stewards, Lancashire Region, motion two two seven , Lancashire Region, moving motion two two seven. , hang on a sec. Colleagues, if you are moving out, move out very quietly please Congress, if I asked the question, is there a shop steward in the house, I would've been confident to say yes, but they all seem to be leaving. But I can safely say it today. But if I was to ask the same question throughout industry today the answer would be very different. A recent survey carried out by Labour Research shows that out of two thousand workplaces studied, there was a marked decline in unionization. During the eighties the proportion of employees in union membership was down to forty eight percent in nineteen ninety, from fifty eight percent in nineteen ni eighty four. This gloomy story is reflected in the disappearance of union representatives. Our decline is widespread, affecting workplaces of all types. What're we gonna do about it? Well, brothers and sisters, I haven't got the answer. But if this motion is successful and a working party is established, one of the conclusions that we might reach is that General Secretaries should keep their sticky fingers off shops steward's commissions. I move. The seconder? , Lancashire Region, seconding motion two two seven. Colleagues, I agree with everything just said. But talk about incentives. I believe the opposite is happening. There is an attack on the benefits and commissions. If some of this year's proposals are passed our members will receive less next year than they get now. Three weeks ago I was invited down to a meeting of water workers. They were just dropped out of a union, it just happens the one we're quite friendly with at the moment. They were dissatisfied with the service and the benefits provided. I was asked, if we join your union, what will we get? I went on that morning to sell this union the benefits we provide. I recruited twenty one members that morning, a few more to come I hope. I tell you, colleagues, am I glad that meeting was before this Congress. Now, now, if I can hold on to these members depends on benefits being maintained, not decreased, that's not an incentive. Commissions, Jesus, colleagues, can you imagine two branch secretaries eh? One on ten percent, one on five, I think I know who's gonna be happy. Eh, I don't know who comes up with these ideas, I don't honest. But if that's an incentive they're not living in the real world. I often wonder if the people who come up with these proposals have any experience in recruitment. I doubt it, eh? I tell you what might be the answer, colleagues, a fortnight's compulsory re recruitment campaign for these people. Half five in a morning, with the rain going down the back of your bleeding neck, the police set upon you by the owner and the manager, eh, that'd liven 'em up. Eh? Colleagues, they wouldn't be too keen on cutting commissions then. Eh, I don't doubt. Now, now sorry, I've gotta laugh at that one myself. Now, now, I know they're trying to save, I know they're trying to save money. Yeah, we know that. Problem is, we're trying to save this union. That's the difference. And I think they should have a vested interest in that. I really do. Because if we, we, the rank and file don't succeed, we're all gonna go down the tube together. Support motion two two seven. Thanks . Motion two two nine, G M B Services, Northern Region to move President, Congress,, Northern Region, moving motion two two nine. I think our union has changed dramatically over the last few years, not to the point that our great history has been lost, but we have adapted to the world in which we live. Our education department has undergone a review which in return has produced quality materials and in turn quality stewards which meet the needs of all members. The health and safety department now known as the health and safety and environment department, is envied by other unions, and has clearly responded to its own review. Now Congress, I believe that we must adapt the considerable changes which have taken place in the last few years of Tory terrorism. Our organization is crying out for high quality information to fulfil the demands made upon both full- time and lay officials. This information is increasingly becoming of local nature, C C T and L M S make it difficult for our national research department to deal with local issues. At this point, Congress, I should add that this motion is not an attack on our research department. More cries for devolution. N H S, Local Authorities, multi-nationals, are all going down the road local bargaining. And what happens from district to district, region to region, is sometimes as far apart as John Major and the British people. We know the reason local bargaining is being encouraged, it's to lower wages and conditions and give rich financial benefits to the few. There is a rule for a central research point but again colleagues, more is needed in the regions. Our union has been, without doubt, the shining light in terms of what we offer to members. And we must continue to improve and better the information that is provided. The easiest way is to channel resources into the regions. A review by the C E C, in my opinion, would show that the agenda for the future will be local. Bargaining will be local, and research, whatever nature or subject, will have to be local to support our activists and officials. We can boast that changes not made were not necessary but without looking ahead and of course responding, we will leave our organization floundering and will lose out locally to others. Please support this motion. Seconder for two two nine? President, Congress,, Northern Region, seconding motion two two nine. Colleagues, the service sub-committee of the C E C has already initiated reviews of departments which offer support to national, regional and lay officials. The outcome of the reviews have certainly taken into account the needs of the membership which of course means a better organization. I feel the time is now right to respond to local bargaining initiatives, C C T and L M S, with a review of how the research department could best provide their services to the people at the sharp end. There is a need, more than ever, with many changes that are taking place, for information to be provided quickly and effectively, delivering to the point and value to our members. Congress, I therefore ask the C E C to immediately instigate a comprehensive review of the research department which, with doubt, without doubt has supplied excellent information in the past, but I feel should be given the opportunity to fulfil and identify local needs of regions. Our union, more than ever, needs a quick response service and hopefully this will be on the line if the review begins. Please support this motion. I move. Motion two three one, Publicity, Liverpool Region? President, Congress,, Liverpool, North Wales and Irish Region. Colleagues, in moving this motion I am seeking the C E C to give this union the credit it deserves when achieving victory for its members throughout with a wider publicity campaign through the media, although if is on the television again tonight I think he's gonna have a higher rating than Coronation Street this week. Under the section that I am a member of, is the public sector, the largest section of the union. We need bold headline posters in colour to identify what sections they represent so that we can give our members activist up to date information in advance of other comp competition and other unions. Because of the competition we face from the new union, UNISON, we need application forms geared up to the particular industries that we require. I move. Two three one, seconded? Seconded, two three one? Did somebody say formally? Thanks very much. Colleagues, the C E C wish to put a speaker in in respect of motion two two nine, we're seeking reference, I call I hope that wasn't an omen. , Midland and East Coast Region speaking on behalf of the C E C. Congress, the C E C is asking you to support motions two two seven and two three one but refer motion two two nine. On pages one 0 six and one 0 seven of the General Secretary's Report, reference is made to the C E C organization sub-committee reviewing the work of the research department. This was done last year. The research department has followed the lines set by that review. It has shifted resources from routine servicing to policy development. Investment has been made in online financial information services. This has speeded up the flow of information on companies to the regions. A great deal of progress has been made on equal rights. Negotiators guides on disability and harassment have also been produced, as well as model agreements and other support services for officers. These have become key areas of the department's work. The department has directed much effort to European issues. The G M B's European officer has contributed a lot here and at the cutting edge in Brussels. It has been recognized that the European Directives are increasingly affecting what happens in the workplace. Examples of this are these. Acquired Rights Directive, the health and safety and the forty eight hour week. Back on the home front, bargaining is shifting rapidly from the national arena to local level. It is recognized that G M B's resources need to reflect this. This especially applies to research services because they supply the raw material with which we work, the information needed by the union to enable it to respond to the challenges which arise day by day. We must be constantly vigil and keep a sharp look out for new issues which need to be put on our agenda, so that we can keep pace with the changes that affect our members and organization. The research department is the resource that is well placed to do this, as demonstrated by the examples of equal rights and training. Similarly,ex the excellent output of the research department is essential to formulate effective responses to the ever more sophisticated management who constantly employ new techniques in human resource management and attacks on our members' pay and conditions. Examples of this are of performance related pay could you wind up please? Yes, which has sometimes been a pre-cursor to de- recognition. Therefore, the C E C is asking you to support motion two two seven, refer motion two two nine and support motion two three one. Thank you. Thanks very much. Propose to take the vote colleagues, motion two two seven as being accepted. All those in favour? Against? That's carried. Reference is being sought on two two nine, Northern Region prepared to refer. Agreed? Conference accept that? Thanks very much. Motion two three one, Liverpool Region, the C E C are asking you to accept it. All those in favour? Against? That's carried. I now call motion forty six, rule twenty seven, Legal Assistance. This is a C E C motion to be moved by Morning Congress, er , er speaking on er Mm moving motion forty six on behalf of the Executive. Under er rule twenty seven, the er Central Executive Council authorizes regional secretaries to provide legal assistance. Er, this usually consists of asking law firms who specialize in personal injury claims to represent our members in claiming compensation for occupational accidents and diseases. As the General Secretary's Report indicates, last year members obtained about forty million pounds in compensation, almost all of it through our regional solicitors. With the support of regional legal officers and a set of guidelines and codes of practice, we ask the solicitors to abide by regional secretaries ensuring that cases are pursued as forcefully as possible with the members interests uppermost at all stages. However, regional secretaries, despite our many wonderful skills, cannot be litigation experts and run the cases. We rely on the good advice of our solicitors who advise us on the appropriate action to take. So, when a solicitor recommends that a writ is issued, we usually, almost invariably, authorize that step, provided it falls within the guidelines. The same goes for medical reports and engineers' reports and so on. And the same also applies when our solicitors report that, having done th bes very best they can, they cannot recommend that the union continues to finance the claim. Try as we might, we cannot win every case. With the best will in the world many cases have to be withdrawn or discontinued each year. The question posed by motion forty six is this. When a regional secretary, acting on the advice of the solicitor, indicates that a case cannot be won, and terminates legal assistance under rule twenty seven, should the member be able to appeal against that decision? The C E C thinks not. Decisions to terminate legal assistance under rule twenty seven are different from other decisions made within the union, because they are invariably made on the express written recommendation of a specialist in law. Appeals against termination of legal assistance are unfair to regional committees, to the appeals committee of the C E C, and to the appeals tribunal. None of these bodies, any more than a regional secretary, is an expert in personal injury litigation. Yet, the appeal by definition, asks them to second guess , could you wind up please? the advice of a barrister. They cannot do so and should not be asked to try. And what is the regional committee being asked to do? To refer the case back to the same solicitor who has reported that the case cannot now be won, or refer it to a different lawyer? What happens if the new solicitor also recommends closure of the case? Currently the member is able to appeal afresh. This is not sensible. President, Congress, the C E C does not lightly bring forward a motion which limits the right of appeal, but in these very special circumstances we feel it is both justified and necessary. I move motion forty six. Thanks very much . Is the motion seconded? Formally seconded. Could you formally pen it? Thank you. Formally seconded. The C E C are obviously asking you to support this colleagues. All those in favour? Against? That's carried. Colleagues, I'd now like to extend a welcome to . is Director General of the Engineering Employers Federation. Colleague, any more interruption you can go through that door. Now, I'm telling you. Except for a three year secondment to the Ministry of Defence, most of his career has been spent in the motor industry. has been Managing Director of world-wide sales for Land Rover and Director of European group, he was also a main Board Director with Rover. joined the E E F in July nineteen ninety two, since when he had led the call for an industrial policy in Britain. Invite to address Conference. President, ladies and gentlemen. President, thank you for that welcome. I must confess I was surprised, curious and highly delighted when er you invited me to speak to you here today and er I'm very and sincerely pleased that you did. I am glad to be here. Nevertheless, I do feel a bit like Zsa Zsa Gabor's fifth, or was it sixth, husband on their wedding night. I'm er I'm pretty clear what's expected of me but not so certain that I know how to make it sufficiently interesting to achieve your undivided attention. Now, no doubt your predecessors, and certainly mine, would be astonished to know how we can meet in this way, but I wonder whether they'd approve? My guess is that they might not. Indeed, I'm not er sure that there aren't still members of both our organizations who believe that right now each of us is supping with the devil. I don't see it that way at all but if they're right er I'd defend your invitation and my acceptance by quoting the old idiom, better the devil you know. You must be the judges of whether or not I'm the devil or at least his representative, but I hope you don't see me that way. If you do, let me strike a deal with you straight away. I won't judge you by your past if you don't judge me by mine. It's time to take off the dinosaur suits and start talking real business. I'm here because I believe that we share many objectives and because I know that there's more that unites us than divides us. I'm sure that when you adopted your working together slogan you were not thinking that it included employers. But why shouldn't it? Surely we all want to achieve the same objectives, an end to recession, low unemployment, a prosperous and fair economy, good education, training and health care. In short, a stable and caring society in which everyone can live in reasonable comfort and security and to which everyone contributes according to their means. Now I'm not so stupid to believe that we'll always necessarily agree on how those objectives should be met. But we should see where the common ground lies and, having identified it, we should build there, and if we fail to do this, we'll be failing both our groups of members. Failing future generations and failing U K P L C. And I'm sure you don't want to leave that legacy any more than I do. In this short talk, I propose to concentrate just on two things. I'd like to talk about the needs for and the potential benefits of an industrial strategy and then I'd like to tell you how the employers view trades unions today. First, industrial strategy. This is a topic which the E E F has been promoting hard since last October. We've been doing so because we believe that without an industrial strategy U K living standards and status will sink quite quickly to those of a Third World economy. We don't want that and I'm sure you don't want it either. For U K P L C to succeed in the years ahead, we simply have to agree objectives, navigate by the same map, and aim at the same goals. Now, it's mot going to be easy, not least because it will require the politicians to be more cooperative and less combative. It's simply not good enough for them to say, as they have for the last forty five years, elect us, we'll change everything and then things will be alright. We need long- term industrial policies that survive general elections and changes of government. How else will we ever have sustainable strategies for energy, for transport, or telecommunications. Had we defined a robust industrial strategy for the U K in the nineteen seventies, would we be looking back now on twenty years of consistent industrial decline? Had we a powerful industrial policy in the nineteen eighties, would we be looking back now at a crisis of industrial investment in the nineteen nineties? If the U K is to be globally competitive in the future, we simply cannot afford to perpetuate such mistakes. Now the chief purpose of an industrial strategy is to develop strategic thinking about our national industrial affairs and provide a common background against which the key decisions determining that future can be made. Without the basic information and understanding, market forces cannot be expected to function as they were intended. Now we at the E E F define an industrial policy as the development of a common understanding about the role of industry and the economy, between industry, government, finance and education and about the direction of technological and industrial progress. And by government I mean, not just the government of the day, but the opposition parties too. And it's this common understanding that many of our competitor countries possess and which we so sadly lack. Without it, the future of U K industry and of the economy as a whole, will be in danger. Let's take a brutally honest look at our current position. Our manufacturing base is in long-term decline, accelerated by the current recession. Despite our success in improving productivity in the eighties, there's an urgent need to rebuild belief and confidence in U K industry. We have a chronic trade deficit, high unemployment, and our productive capacity in manufacturing is simply too low. Now, our pivotal problem is that our appetite to consume is about to exceed our total capacity to produce. Despite the surge of investment in the late nineteen eighties, the long-term trend is towards investing an ever smaller proportion of what we earn. Our statistics show that we consume all that we're capable of producing, yet we're investing less and less in new capacity to produce. In nineteen seventy two our manufacturing sector accounted for thirty two percent of gross domestic product. By nineteen ninety two, it had fallen to just about twenty percent. And that matters because our existing capacity cannot maintain our national living standards and our balance of payments. And for too long we've been misled into believing that manufacturing and industry had become unimportant. In truth, our future competitiveness and prosperity depend more than ever before on technology and industry. The potential for future economic growth depends partly on innovations in production technology, to reduce costs and, crucially, on innovative products which create new markets in themselves. Innovative products are an essential part of the process of economic growth, providing new employment and not just in manufacturing. We must not forget that most economic growth, even in service industries, originates from technological innovation in the manufacturing sector. Service industries are rarely able to improve their productivity, service quality, or competitiveness by their own efforts alone. They usually need new and improved or more affordable equipment and the future growth of service industries such as travel, broadcasting and entertainment, and increasingly in education and health care activities and environmental protection, will depend upon continued technical innovation. Now many people seem to think that technology means machines and equipment, but machines and equipment and the software that run them are only the products of technology. Technology is about the ability to produce goods and services competitively. It's therefore about people, their skills, their knowledge and their organization for cooperative activity. It takes time for industry to accumulate expertise, to build teams, and to establish a strong market position. To achieve industrial competitiveness normally requires decades of persistent activity, not just a few years, but it can be thrown away very quickly and very easily. Strategic vision and consistency of policies by firms, by their financial investors, and by government, are crucial, and this cannot be achieved without a coherent sustained industrial strategy. The problem is the long-term industrial strategy for prosperity is not a glamorous thing. A long-term industrial strategy does not produce profits tomorrow. It will not win votes tomorrow. At least that's what the politicians used to think. Now I believe things are starting to change. The bad news, on which I expect you'll agree with me, is that across all parties, the professional politicians have been letting us down for decades. They really don't know much about industry. They don't really care enough about industry, and they certainly don't understand that our timescales are quite different from theirs. Industry certainly needs to be high on the political agenda but like Northern Ireland policy, the main parties must agree a mutual policy. Industry is simply too important, with too many people's jobs depending on it, to be a party political punchball. Let's build on the good news, that Heseltine and Cook understand the need for a national industrial strategy. Let's get industry out of party politics and make it a truly national priority. Wouldn't that really benefit your members and mine? Wouldn't that begin to ensure that the U K will be th in the premier league in the twenty first century? Now my second topic, how do employers view the trade unions today? Surprisingly you may find, perhaps not so very differently from yourselves. We've both had to cope with two recessions and undergo immense change in that process. But it's because we accepted the challenge of change, even though we may not have liked everything that went with it, that we're here today. Leaner, yes, but probably fitter too, and more competitive. Now, trade unions have changed dramatically over the past ten years. You've down-sized, restructured, looked at amalgamations and generally sought a new role, just like the E E F, just like industry. A bonanza in fact for management consultants and accountants. Er, speaking of accountants, I must tell you that one of the perks of my job is to be able to get out and about in the real world, to real companies, meeting real people. And a couple of weeks ago I was at a chemical engineering company where the managing director told me that they were now using accountants for their safety experiments instead of rats. Erm, you mi you might share my surprise when I heard that. So I asked him whey on earth they were doing it and he said, well there are three very simple reasons. First of all, there are far more accountants around now than there are rats and er we were having great difficulty in getting hold of the rats and I thought, well that sounds logical. The second er reason which he gave me, of course I should have thought for myself, he said, but the accountants more accurately represented the human form than did the rats, so that was a clear one to him, but it was the third one that really floored me, when he told me that their staff had been getting really attached to the rats. Now, er, now back to the main theme, which is that you've become more business-like, in every sense of the word. You collaborate much more readily with industry. We only have to look at some of the long-term deals, the single union deals and changed working practices to see that. They haven't all, I accept, been greeted with standing ovations, and some unions have moved more quickly to accept change than others. It's the same too with some employers. But those changes were not met with the politicized and combative attitudes of the past. That's because there's a new realism. Unions have turned professional, serving their members' interests in the way that members, or perhaps I should call them customers, demand. You now offer a lot more than just negotiations on pay. You provide a wide range of personal services and you take a keen and active interest in important issues such as health and safety, child care, training, and the environment. And we agree with you on many of them. Many of the changes, sad but true, came about through recession, particularly the first one. We lost a third of the workforce in my industry, mainly in unskilled and semi-skilled posts, many companies went bust and others were cut down in size dramatically. But that recession also brought about the improvements in industrial relations which we see today. The companies and the workforces that came out of it we were far leaner, more committed, and more aware of the need for change than their predecessors had ever been. Managements took steps in a variety of forms to improve communications with employees. And unions became less sensitive about companies communicating directly with employees. Unions also started to accept the kind of deals that are commonplace today. In short, we started to work together. Now, the recession that we're emerging from right now, hopefully, has been quite different. It hit sectors and people who largely escaped before, the skilled, the clerical workers, the managers and the professionals who've been badly mauled this time, and where last time around er the service sector was expanding to mop up some of those who'd lost their jobs in manufacturing, this time the service sector too has been in deep trouble. Now, it always takes a crisis to bring people here talking to you today, and I'm very glad to be able to do so our people, and more so the craftsmen within that particular indu our people, and more so the craftsmen within that particular ind at their request. And we're taking a lot more time talking to the Labour Party, and not only at their request again. The big issue is rebuilding and expanding our manufacturing base to ensure that we remain a prosperous industrialized country. But there's another big issue, one that unions and employers have got to tackle to clear the ground for greater cooperation between us, and that's the still passive acceptance of the them and us syndrome. And yes, it's still there in places. I'm not sure why, because without realizing it, we've something else very much in common. We're all employees. I'm an employee of the E E F in the same way that is an employee of G M B, in the same way that managers and staff are all employees of the companies they work for, in the same way that your rank and file members are all employees, in the same way that your full time officials are all employees. When we come to think about it there are very few owner-occupiers around these days. Now, if we can work together on solving this one, we'll find it much easier to work on some of the others. And where we've got to work together right now is to ensure that the U K stays competitive. Now, I know our views on this will differ somewhat, but even the European Commission has publicly expressed its concern just recently over the levels of unemployment across Europe and about the international competitiveness of European industry compared with the rest of the world. And that's why the E E F, not alone, but together with our colleagues in engineering employers' organizations throughout Europe, German, the French, the Belgians, the Dutch, argued against the working time directive in its original form. That draft er approved by the Social Affairs Council a week ago does not allow the flexibility for companies and their employees to determine working time arrangements at local plant level, but we do question the E E C's involvement in this area. Working time, including overtime, should be decided by local voluntary agreement and I do emphasize the word voluntary. President, one final point. Remaining competitive in this world, particularly when so many countries are also in recession, means keeping a tight rein on costs. I know that many of you and your colleagues have been under great pressure during our own recession to restrain wage claims and to accept deferred or even zero settlements. But my message today is straightforward. We've got to continue that restraint even as things start to get better, and that means restraints from the top to the bottom, from board room to shop floor. The prize of long-term success is too precious to throw away for transient short-term benefit. Mr President, at the beginning of my address I said that we would see where the common ground lies. Let's find it and, better still, let's build on it. Thank you for your attention and for the warmth of your welcome today. thank you very much indeed for that er address. Colleagues, can we now turn to recruitment, a number of motions, motion two three six, Recruitment, Birmingham Region to move, motion two three seven, Lancashire Region to move, composite four Recruitment for the Unemployed, Midland Region to move, motion two four two, Accrued Membership Rewards, Liverpool to move, motion two four three, Recruitment Procedure, Liverpool. I call Birmingham Region to move two three six and again colleagues, if supporting speakers could come down to the front it will assist. , Birmingham and West Midland Region, moving motion two three six on recruitment. During the seventies unions were reporting record membership. Indeed, our own region, Birmingham West Midland, had a membership in excess of one hundred thousand members. In the seventies life was rosy for all trade unions and everyone within the organization felt secure. Every cloud had a silver lining. Nothing could go wrong and all unions, especially the G M B, had the Midas touch. But in nineteen seventy nine things did go wrong. Thatcherism was born and during the last decade there has been record redundancies and bankruptcies within the U K as a whole. Unfortunately many were trade union members who lost their jobs and have not retained their union membership so have been lost to our organization. We now find G M B offering nineteen seventy style benefits to a nineteen ninety style membership. The effect on us that every year our General Secretary during the finance debate, asks Congress to approve increases in contributions. This is a situation that cannot and must not continue. It is a recipe for disaster. So what can be done to redress the balance? Two things. One, retain the membership we have. Two, recruit new members. If the G M B could reg retain the unemployed and redundant, it would give a solid base on which to work. It is no good signing up a new member and then losing two others. That's one step forward, two steps back. The result of that is crumbling foundations. The way forward then is to recruit, and the importance of new members was never more critical than it is at this time. Too many people still see union membership as belonging to a militant organization. Old images die hard. People still see unions as wage negotiators and nothing else. So, how does the G M B best get over the message to the mem non- members because unions have progressed a long way since our founder, Will Thorne, collected subs in a bucket. The need to sell our organization and the services and expertise that can be offered, such as legal advice and representation, advice on social security benefits, education. We have our own colleges and run courses on all kinds of subjects. Health and safety, where information on this wide ranging subject is available, our own department skilled in occupational pensions, advice on personal pensions through our own bank, Unity Trust. In fact, expertise in a whole range of subjects too numerous to mention. President, in this motion I have tried to outline things that could be important and useful in recruiting drive. But it mustn't just be left to the activists to recruit. Our national office must help by better media coverage, bringing to non- members attention what we have to offer and how useful it is to belong to a trade union. If the right approach is used in a positive way, success will follow. President, colleagues, I move. Is there a seconder? Formally seconded, thanks very much. Motion two three seven, Lancashire Region President, Colleagues,, Lancashire Region, moving motion two three seven. The subject of proper union organization in the taxi trade is very important to our branch and, as I'm sure you will appreciate, recruitment is difficult when little G M B recruitment literature appertains to the taxi trade. Existing recruitment literature deals with employed persons within the workplace and the values of union organization when negotiating with the employer for proper wages, workers' rights and benefits. None of the above appertain to the taxi trade as the trade is predominantly self-employed. There are three hundred and sixty seven local authorities in England and Wales who are authorized to licence and administer the taxi trade in their respective areas. Although these authorities work within the framework of central government legislation, their interpretation of this legislation is not always correct and is often reckless and to the detriment of the trade, its members' income and working conditions. The treatment that is received from councils by the trade is shoddy and inconsiderate and often disrespectful and contemptuous. The taxi trade is desperately in need of organization in order to improve conditions for the workers employed therein, and therefore national recruitment is necessary in order to begin that organization. Recruitment literature needs to convince the taxi trade that proper organization can, and will, improve their working conditions, and that by being members of a recognized trade union who have expertise in dealing with local authorities, the trade will benefit. Recruitment will ideally contain enough information to convince the taxi trade of the benefits of strong membership when dealing with representation at local level, and long-term advantages of being a member of the G M B when dealing with national issues. Working conditions of the taxi driver are extremely poor and could be likened to Victorian times, hours worked are ra rarely less than sixty per week, there is no holiday pay, no pension rights, no sick pay, and no say in which way the trade is administered by local authorities. How many in the G M B are working under similar conditions? I guess not many that are sat in this room. So you can see the need for proper organization and the need for increased support from the union? We must get the trade organized and on the way to improved working conditions. However, before these aims can be achieved, we first of all have to recruit and this, as I said before, cannot be done without literature required. If passed, this move will be the first step on the way to mass recruitment and organization within the trade. As we have heard earlier on this week in the General Secretary's Report on the financial position of the union, the money generated by this recruitment in the taxi trade will, I am sure, be greatly received. I urge Conference to support this motion. Thank you very much. Thanks . Is there a seconder? Formally seconded, thanks very much. Composite four, Recruitment of the Unemployed, Midland Region to sec er move and second. Is it gonna be formally seconded? President, Congress,, Midlands and East Coast Region, moving composite motion four. Colleagues, it is with a mixture of sadness, disappointment and disbelief that this motion is required to be brought before Congress today. The wrong that unemployed people are not allowed to join this great union is a wrong that must be righted today. There can be fewer more devastating experiences in life than to be thrust from a situation of regular employment with all the stature that this entails, to becoming an enforced member of society's underclass, the unemployed the situation with a total lack of dignity, ask anyone who tries to claim benefits, the situation with a loss of social standing and frustration at unachievable ambitions. We hope that sooner or later the philosophy that classes people as mere units of labour will be consigned to the dustbin of history which it deserves. Unfettered competition of dog eat dog policies must surely give way to positive employment policies and achieve what desired, a society set free from idleness. But what of today? Where can a person turn to for advice, support and encouragement? To its shame, not certainly at the moment, to the G M B. We don't want you. No job, no membership. That is the message. Politically we cannot allow this situation to exist any longer. Imagine the situation on the floor of the House of Commons. The Labour Party, in a rare attack on unemployment through John Smith, is confronted by the usual stereotype smart arse Tory Minister. His reply, but Mr Smith, even your own union does not even allow the unemployed to join. Where is the compassion? Where is the concern? What embarrassment. I understand that the C E C are asking for reference of this composite. I hope that they reach a decision sooner than later, a decision to allow the most needy members of our society to join us. Finally, you will note that the motion provides that membership at the reduced rate will not be a fiscal drag on the union. I move. Whilst the seconder is coming to the rostrum colleagues, perhaps I could advise Conference of what the position is at the moment concerning the programme. We're certainly going to overrun again at lunchtime today because I do want to get Section Secretary's Report in, and the, certainly the special motion on Swan Hunter Ship Building Limited, so I will take the remainder of the recruitment motions, Report and certainly the special motion. President, Congress,, Midlands and East Region, seconding composite motion four. I recognize that it represents a major change in policy to even consider the idea of recruiting the unemployed, but I understand the C E C for looking for referral and we will be happy with that this year. What prompted the submission of thi the motion is the growing feeling of disaffection and desertion among the unemployed, particularly the union unemployed in this country, who many never have had a job. Once the labour movement offered hope and support to these people. They now have no ch no voice, there is only one way to counter this. We, the G M B, have got to offer them that support. The long-term consequences of the current do-nothing policy are easy to predict. We'll have ha we will have been an irrel irrelevant to them for so long that when they do find another job or even a first job, then we will have a major task to convince them of the value of trade union membership. It is in our own interests to create a profile amongst the unemployed. Think about it. An unemployed member now could be a full member in the near future, possibly in firms where we have previously had no members. There is another dimension to this motion that needs to be considered. If we continue to ignore these people, especially the young, we may be fighting them in the near fu future as they are actively being targeted by the far right British National Party and other fascist organizations that are using this sense of desertion. We will have to offer an alternative to the crap that they are peddling. We have to offer support and, above all, we have to offer hope. Fascism does not begin with the concentrations camps, that's where it ends. It begins in social conditions exactly like those in Britain now. Let's ha let's offer the unemployed an alternative. Please consider the implications of not acting on the motion very carefully. Thank you. Motion two four two Liverpool Region. Formally moved. Is it formally seconded? Formally referred? Motion two four three Liverpool Region? , Liverpool, North Wales and Irish Region. President, Congress, the ex er we believe the Executive are accepting motion two four three, but we believe it should be aired at Congress today. Surely it is better that new members feel that they are members of an organization which deals with them in a more personal basis and are not just another number. Each member of our union is an individual and deserves the recognition of their status as an equal partner in our great union, both for their own self-esteem and as means of demonstrating our respect and encouragement for that person to play their role in the affairs of the union. With the establishing of sections, it is vital that the members no the member knows what avenues are open to them and what facilities and rights they have, and how to utilize them and contribute to the running of the union. With the facility of computers it is possible, as shown by other unions as well as forward-looking branches of our own, to communicate with members on a personal basis. This approach is never more important than when a person first joins any organization. You only have to have w you only have one opportunity to make a first impression er make a first impression. So why not do it then? Given that the member will be sent their membership card, it would seem a small step away to actually send them a letter addressed to them personally welcoming them to the union and advise them at the very least on the basic facilities and benefits, plus other important information, and signed by the Regional Secretary, if not by the General Secretary. To inform them of who to contact if they have a problem plus benefits, discounts etcet etcetera, with particular emphasis on accrual benefits that may be lost if membership lapses, and the possible mention of loyalty benefits that may assist them in helping to recruit and retain other members. With the system correctly set up, the whole process can be completely, completed automatically by the use of technology and it could be set up speedily upon receipt of a membership application. Surely a massive aid to recruitment and retention. My region asks you to support motion two four three. Thanks very much . Is two four three seconded? Formally seconded. Thanks very much. The C E C wish to put a speaker into the debate. I call President, Congress,, Lancashire Region, speaking on behalf of the C E C. Congress, the C E C are asking you to support motion two three six, support motion two three seven, seek a referral of composite four, referral of motion two four two, and ask you to support two four three. Colleagues, motion two three seven calls for the union to recruit within the licensed taxi trade. But whilst there's clearly a high degree of non-unionized labour in the trade, the union needs to assess the potential benefits of committing resources in this area, given the transient, often temporary nature, of the workforce. The C E C are to seek a referral of composite four. We already reviewed our position on the recruitment of unemployed people as outlined in a new concept of trade unionism, prepared and, specially prepared, for this Congress. We do not wish to pre- judge this review and therefore ask for the composite to be referred. We also ask that motion two four two be referred. The motion contains several interesting ideas which the C E C would wish to examine in its review. Therefore, to summarize Congress, the C E C are asking you to support motions two three six and two three seven, seek referral of composite four and motion two four two for the reasons outlined. And finally ask you to support motion two four three. Thank you . Thanks very much . Propose to take the vote Conference of motion two three six. As has indicated, we are seeking acceptance. All those in favour? Against? That's carried. Two three seven is accepted with a statement. All those in favour? Against? That's carried. Composite motion four er reference is being sought. Does the Midland Region agree? Agreed. Conference accept that? Thanks very much. Motion two four two. Reference is being sought. Does the Liverpool Region agree? Agreed. Thanks very much lads. Conference accept that? Motion two four three. You're being recommended to accept. All those in favour? Against? That's carried Right. Erm yeah I thought it was very good. Very, very relaxed, very natural erm went through the, the procedure. Erm it was, it was good. The greetings, we look at each part, the greetings and er appropriate sociability, that was good didn't go on too long, friendly, two way, wasn't all one, one sided. Erm you gave your business card, sorry you gave your buyer's guide first and Steve raised an objection then about do you find it a problem only selling for one company Mhm. you, you gave him an answer but it, it didn't really I don't think sort of No. in all honesty ans answer what he said, you more or less made a statement and said yes I am er but I, I know all about the products and I'll give you best advice. I think you could've, you could've apacked that a bit, a bit more, to put in the er words of the day, to find out you know what was worrying him and, and what his problems were on that. You, you know, you, you got over it but er he, he didn't re he didn't come back to you when perhaps he could've done if he was feeling a bit er aggressive at the time . Erm you gave him your card, that was fine erm your link into referrals, that was good. Erm you did what I did actually Bill, you actually called them referrals and I think I, I feel that we shouldn't call them referrals we should call them introductions, I think it, it's probably less confrontational Okay, aha. but erm the, the link was there and it was good. Erm your statement of purpose you, you er you, you gave over and at that point, you know, I've had a policy for thirteen years or whatever it is why, why I haven't seen somebody before erm and again you, you gave an answer to that erm which, which actually satisfied there wasn't any, any comeback on it erm you mentioned industry and so on and that was, that was, that was f that was okay. Erm I didn't spot the tentative benefit, I don't think you actually got that bit as far as what was gonna be in it because when erm Steve came up with the why so long I think that, that took you off the track a bit. Mhm. Erm tt you then moved into introduce the C C Q and after you'd done that, then you got the, the willingness to proceed. So you, you went sort of back the other way and alright it was, it was okay and, and er and there was no problems there because any, anything that came up with the C C Q you, you o you answered the questions there and went through. Erm the other parts that I made a note of, you didn't ac well you Steve said the wife will be back in an hour and a half erm you didn't pick up Bill any, anything on that at that stage as to whether she ought to be involved although when he started talking or when he couldn't remember the, the names of the or dates of birth of the children, he remembered the names, the dates of birth of the children, you mentioned the fact then that the wife would be back in a in an hour Mhm. but I don't think you actually mentioned at any time you know the, the wife's involvement in it other than that point. She's only the wife. Ooh! I'll ignore that. Erm Steve was quite meticulous about the family names Mhm. erm er and the spelling of it, you, you asked, I think, about the, about the Bridgit side of it and so on and, and questioned that and then again later on picked up a bit about the er tt about the spelling of the children's names so you, you went along with him on, on that. I don't know whether, whether it might've been worthwhile just questioning a bit more about the the link because he was obviously very keen on it Mhm. but you, you, you know, you, you picked it up later on and more or less o overcame that. Erm the education side you picked up university and school fees. Steve mentioned, you know, to put fifteen, twenty pounds a month into it erm and you said well we'll come back to that later which I think on the face of it is probably er a right way of going about it cos you didn't get interrupted at that stage talking about a specific product so I think that was er that was good. Erm one of the other things that, that was mentioned was the magazine he'd seen, he'd seen, he'd seen the thing on Financial News actually. about school er further education on, on the magazine and I felt that perhaps, bearing in mind what he'd said earlier about I haven't had any contact with you for thirteen years, that might have been something that you could've you know reinforced a bit well we've now got financial advisers, the other thing or one of the other things we're doing is, is this contact magazine which we're sending out to policy holders and it, you know, it helps to bridge the gap as it were. Erm I can't remember whether occupation or health c I think health comes next doesn't it? Yeah. He mentioned his back problem you never really got to find out exactly what it was, he sort of glossed over it, he said oh I'm alright now. You never really sort of said well was it, was it a slipped disc or is it gone or have you gotta go back for any more tests or anything like that er and bearing in mind that he also said he was keen on sports and he played tennis and so on, you could've had the opportunity there to say oh have your back problem, back troubles made in difference to you in that area? Mm. Erm occupation when you, you were talking about travel when, he'd told you what he was doing and he was associated with an American company or the parent company was in America erm you mentioned about travel, Steve started talking about car and miles he drives and he also mentioned flying but you never explored at all really the, the flying side. You, you, you assumed that he was flying as a, as a fare paying passenger erm and when he started, when you s then started saying how many miles do you do Steve went straight back to talk about car travel. Mhm. So that the flying part never got mentioned at all, you know, whether he flies around in single engined planes. He's got wings. Pardon? He's got wings. He's got wings, yeah. Well I know he's a clever chap. Erm the salary part was good and you, you were getting all the other bits and pieces that went on, you got his basic salary and you started talking about other benefits and you were exploring those when we er, when we came to the, to the end. As I say it, it was a good structure, very, very er very relaxed, very good, good communication, it wasn't one way or the other. As far as the actual steps are concerned I say the on the on the one that you missed out was the tentative benefits statement, that got lost out because of erm tt the red herring that he threw in about why so long, but it do you know it does highlight that we've gotta try and get back on to it but oth you know, there was a lot of good things in it. Fair enough. Okay? Joan Do you wanna have your er Yeah okay then. your say. My say. I've actually got very little to actually pick you up on Bill because I think erm I think you did very well Mm. erm Most women find that. So Right, erm I've actually got down that erm you assumed that his wife wasn't a tax pay sorry, his wife wasn't a tax payer and you assumed that she wasn't working but you did actually pick back up on that later that she wasn't that she wasn't going back to work after having the children so erm tt that is now irrelevant but it was at the time that you were saying it, that you didn't actually pick it up. I actually got the impression that erm I mean I'm not going to go over the, the points that Mm. that Robert's already gone over, but I actually got the impression that erm I that you didn't feel relaxed in what you were doing, you knew what you were talking about but erm you didn't feel relaxed and if I'd've been your customer then I, I certainly wouldn't have felt relaxed either and and that's the impression that I got which was the completely opposite of Robert. Erm tt er when it came to the children erm and he didn't know the date of birth erm you should've at least got the ages of them Mhm. and, and made a note of those. Erm tt there's er one point I would like to make, when I, when I made that comment about she's only the wife, and I'll just clarify why I said that and this is it's amus a few years ago some, somebody who was, we were taking a policy out with right was, came to me and was, was talking and making arrangements to, to come and see us and he patronisingly said erm and your husband'll be there, and I patronisingly said back, and you'll be bringing your wife,because of the way that he came across to me and I, I mean Yeah, yeah I know I said that. I don't think any of us have actually done that but that is that was the reason for my sarcasm Yeah it's a, it's a good point. Yes. No, no I, I so er it was taken that way because because that is how I felt when he was actually saying that to me Yeah. you know? Erm but er I'd just like to add that that, that wasn't relating to Bill because he certainly didn't do that. Erm I wasn't, I didn't know what you were trying to get at when you were bringing up the miles per annum that he was doing, I can understand the flying side of it but driving in the car, yes you need to know that he's doing a lot of miles and that there's, you know,the there's the potential danger and everything there but I didn't understand why you need his specific miles per annum. I don't know. Erm I think that's about all that I can add to what Robert said. Okay, fine. Ron? Well apart from those things erm tt when, when you were talking about the back erm Steve sort of gestured, in a way, that yes my back was erm oh my back, yes, that's only a one off thing, there may have been some other health problem there which could've gone into. I mean apart from that, yeah I mean you're marvellous Mm. Carry on. there's no question about it, you were very good and I, I'm amazed I picked up these things. Se no seriously I, I thought you were very good Bill, there's no question about it. Erm was the original or the existing business only done through the post? Mm. Er was, did anyone come round at any time? Mhm. Erm I know he's not seen anyone for thirteen years but did, did it just come through the post, sign here, send it back Mhm. you know or was there, you know is that other point, was, was there an intermediat yeah, someone else. Mhm. Erm tt the flying bit, erm I was a bit unsure whether they actually flew the plane, he flew it, the partner flew it, whether they were paying or, or Whether they had wings. what they were doing Well erm as, as I'm sure you picked up. The bonus erm he only got two and a half grand last year, is he expecting to get some this year and if so what does he normally do with the money. Yeah, good point. Erm That's a good point actually. and just the, the part here, I mean this, this I don't know if it's right or if it's wrong but when you said I wanna put twenty quid towards my children's future perhaps the way I would see is I, I would think twenty quid'll go nowhere for their future, it's gonna be a lot more expensive so as you're openly offering me to take the money off you for that I would have perhaps gone down to try and commit you towards that need there and then to see how important it is and then, because when I er eventually bring back erm the sort of agenda and say look it's gonna cost you a hundred and twenty quid a month erm you're sort of sold on the idea. I don't know if that would've been the right thing to do there. See I, I personally in, in the past I would've jumped on it and gone for it. I think it, it's wi Bill was wise not to pursue it. Right. I think his er the best thing to do would be simply to acknowledge at that stage, as Bill did, yeah that is an important area erm say yeah that's something we can help you on, indeed it's something many of my clients erm have found that Friends Provident is really very good at organizing, we've got plans specifically designed for that but rather than look at that now, let's look at the overall picture Right okay. to see if there are any other areas which may be even more important for us to address. You happy with that? Yeah. And then move on. Right. So Check check his understanding and check yeah, so I wasn't sort of having a go, I just didn't know which way we at Friends Provident would go. See in the past you'd walk out with business, you would walk out with business Yeah. but you probably would've missed other things. Yeah. Alright? Right. Finished? Yeah. Any other points? No but as I say, you know Okay. Thanks Ron. you're marvellous Bill. Wait till I see what you or Steve has to say. Steve Yeah erm one thing, you were a little bit nervous to start with and what that can do is to give you a tendency to piggyback questions, is that something you're aware of? Yeah. Do you know what I mean by that? You're going on er you're not listening to the answers, you're going too fast. Not necessarily no, piggyback is where you asked, you asked me several questions and su and then either added another question to it or asked a question and gave an answer and by doing that you are limiting my responses and I wasn't sure which an which question I was answering. Does your wife do that or does somebody else do that, why not just ask me the question who does the gardening Mm. Mm. and zip up. Ask the questions. The danger is er you, you limit what I'm going to say to you. So the easiest thing is just ask a question and say nothing, wait for the answer and then respond appropriately. So that's one of the things er I picked up on. Tt erm with the F P mailshot er I think a good question to ask would've been why did you buy it, was there any reason behind it are you happy with it er when it came to referrals I mentioned the tennis club, something you could perhaps develop is, that's interesting, which club is that Mhm. oh yes it's the er West Worthing Club and do you have a regular, you know, partner you play with, is it er er a doubles match and who would cos you're then sort of sounding out whether there's referral business in that one. The thing about the business miles, you were right to ask me the business miles Mhm. absolutely cos, cos that's gonna, that'll come into any er underwriting Mm. if I do over X number of miles and of course the mileage I did was, was way in excess Mhm. of what would be normally considered, and in , of flying, again I, I thought what are you driving at? When you said miles I was thinking what, how many miles is it, how many miles is it that I fly to Turin and Zurich and do you want me to try and add that up and then it was into the cars I thought oh this is an easier question to answer, I'll stick with the cars cos I know that I do twenty two thousand. Mm. Erm a and the, the person I was playing is a friend of mine, he does do a lot of flying Mhm. so of course that would've come out at a later stage, yeah, you know there's a lot of business miles involved in flying to all these er places. Erm I thought you had a good structured call, you were focused on business, you obviously picked up on the buying side. Er I thought you did well in erm giving yourself credibility by talking about the shares, oh yes you can have two hundred and fifty pounds per month in the shares and they've done well and I said oh yes they have done well, and I felt good that you were praising me up for being such a clever chap, and so I thought that was all, all jolly good stuff. Mm. Tt erm the magazine, a magazine's a good way of getting referrals I can't remember who it is, somebody who er Ken I think it is, er uses the magazines as a great way of saying erm you've read that in the magazine, you've found it useful, tell me what about the chaps at Excon, who, who else would you work with who would find it useful to have a subscription, some kind of subscription, who, who should be placed on our mailing list. Mm. So you get referrals that way by using the magazine. Tt erm and explore the salary a bit more because again I said it's basic at thirty five and there's a few other bits and pieces but you never really got to grips with what those other bits and pieces are, yeah there's performance related pay, location allowances, a company car, there's BUPA, all those bits and bobs need to be identified. Mm. That's er and that's it Mark. Okay. Very good. Right, thanks very much Steve. Erm I hones Bill? honestly felt a wee bit nervous at the start just to make sure that I had the structure, that, that, I think that was the whole crux of the thing. Er you find in a one to one situation you become more relaxed because you're conscious of being watched, you know what I mean? Er the structure is there to, to be used. That was, that was the only thing I, I thought well if I get off to the wrong start, you're off on the wrong start completely so yes I, I concede that I was nervous at the, at the beginning. Erm I cl well I, I'm looking for advice here, the wife is not there, do you say oh will she be joining me, joining us? Do you do that right at the very beginning? Oh you would you would say oh nice to meet you Mr Brown, oh erm by the way will your wife be coming to join us because I'm sure she will find it most beneficial. That's right. She'll be, there'll be questions she'd want to ask which perhaps you, you may not er normally pick up on and ask and if it's well I'm afraid she's gone out shopping today say well that's a pity, I'd love to meet up with her. Never mind, perhaps next time when we meet and hopefully we'll be meeting again in say a fortnight's time, erm we can set some time aside when you'll both be here cos I'm sure she'll be interested to hear what I've got to come back and talk about. Mhm. Right. Fine. Er I was, I was quite happy, I take the point er missing the points about the squash club, the tennis club because these are opportunities to get other names. Erm tt whether that's appropriate, you know, I'm thinking of it as a first appointment just to get a general picture whereas you might be coming back to stir his memory for referrals by saying er, you know, er you mentioned here you're a member of the squash club, do you remember I said I'd be looking for introductions, maybe we'll learn whether at the beginning of the second appointment you jog the memory there er you know in other words what I'm do doing is keeping that in my mind, that you are remembering the squash club or whatever club it may be and use that later, although I didn't er elaborate on it at that, that er because I think you can go off at a tangent Yeah I think at that point. yeah I think the er what I, if, if it were me, I'm not saying this is the, you know, the way to do it, if it Mhm. were me as it has been I'd say that's interesting, which club is that, oh it's the no the, I'd, I'd pursue it just a little bit further, spend a Aha. Okay. few more minutes and it might be oh it's the West Worthing Club, that's interesting some of my clients play there as well. Who do you play with, oh I play with Joe Snooks and Fred Brown. Really? Erm how often do you play, oh once a week or a couple of times a week, what sort of standard is it and what it's doing is you've got an opportunity to sound off about yourself and that's who we are talking about isn't it? Ourselves. Mhm. So you're feeling relaxed and comfortable and good because you're telling me, you know, what a great tennis player I am and I really enjoy it, you've just given me a couple of names that I'll either make a note of or I'll say that's interesting cos I actually deal with Joe on a business relationship anyway erm maybe we could meet some other people from the tennis club, self employed people, professional people such as yourself, who might be interested in looking at financial planning but today I'm more interested in talking about you Bill, erm we'll come back to them a bit later if I may so let's press on. And what I've done is I've kind of just sown the seed Yeah. and moved on cos I don't wanna spend any more time on it but No. I've just planted a seed that I know other people Mhm. like minded people. By mentioning names you see are, are you not divulging customer confidentiality? Erm I, I don't think I have a problem saying well actually I deal on er i if someone said erm if you said I play with Joe Snooks you'd say Joe Snooks, that's interesting Joe's a, a very good client of mine Yeah. I'm not gonna say you know that Joe's placed X amount with me. Oh just say I know him quite well. Yeah I knew Joe s yeah, I know Joe very well. And that instantly brings, you start thinking oh he must be alright cos if Joe's done business with him If J if Joe knows him. he's alright, he's an okay kind of a bloke. Mhm. Okay that's fine. Er Am I okay to tell everybody to come in, they're all waiting outside. Oh aye sure, I mean I'll just give them a shout. Okay? Anything else Bill? Fine. Erm not really, I mean er the salary one we could have got into in greater depth when we were cut Yes. that was the point No that's true. That is very true. Okay? Thank you very much. Much appreciated. Ta. Grab a chair then, we'll just have a quick debrief and then we'll break for lunch. So you should've all had where's Matt, do you know where Matt's gone? No he's disappeared I think it's cos he feels a bit rough actually, he's got a terrible cold. Yeah. Right so that was your first attempt at er a role play w what were your thoughts? Oh It was alright. It was alright, a bit of fun really. It is, yeah, role play is an effective method of er learning, put into practice, you know and, if you can hack it here and get passed me, then it's a breeze in the real world. Supposedly. Well I hope you enjoyed this morning now what I want to do this afternoon, we're gonna break for lunch now and then can we reconvene at the syndicate rooms at two o'clock Mhm. complete the final role play and come back here at five to three and we'll look at then step two. Cos you've got one more role play to do erm at your syndicate groups so don't come here, go straight to your rooms, but start at two o'clock and then back here at five to three. Okay? Yeah fine. Yeah so I'll see you all after lunch then? Right. Thank you. successful Oh dear It's nice to know you feel like us Martin . Yeah. Are you timekeeper? Yes, thank you very much. We going straight into it? Well you've got a five minute preparation first. Five minutes. prepare for the er the rigours of working And is it Sorry? ? Erm you are A pain, I know. no, no you're a jurassic. A jurassic, right. Yeah, okay? Okay . Right. Got it all under control? That'll do as your business card. We're ready when you wanna go Okay. Okay may as well go for it I suppose. I'll just make sure Are we, are we in shot are we? Yes. Yes you are. Okay. Tell me when you're ready. Yeah, whenever. Do you want your count down? Three two one? Whatever you like. You're on. Good afternoon Mr . Hi, Rob from Friends Provident erm very pleased to meet you. Good, good. How are you keeping? Very well thank you. Oh good. Erm erm your directions to your home was very good and er Yes. I, I found it with utmost ease. Mhm. Yeah we thought it important to send to you because we are, you know, a bit out of the way that's all and erm people tend to go zipping past and have to go up to the roundabout and come all the way back down again cos it's quite a busy road this and Yeah. we thought we'd er What's, what made you actually choose this position? Erm primarily I think it's peaceful, it's quiet, you know. Mm. Must be beautiful in the summer but then equally as good in er in the autumn. The kids like it here. Yeah. With the old snow and they go up the the hills up there and er go sledding and er they find it very enjoyable actually. Yes. Right. I was expecting you a little bit earlier actually, I think perhaps you got the times wrong I was Yeah I'm sorry I'm a little bit late but, you know, I just wanted to make sure I'd got the right turnings cos erm Yeah. otherwise, as you say, I could've gone straight past here. You could've done right, okay, well you're here now anyway. Right, that's it, and the reason for me er tt coming today, as I explained on the telephone to you Mhm. is twofold really, one for me to introduce myself to you and let you know that I am the representative that's with Friends Provident that will Right. now be looking after your er business Mhm. that you've got with Friends Provident. Right, yeah. Now erm how, how long is it since you've seen anyone from Friends Provident? Coo! Oh God, must be six possibly seven years now when I took the policy out originally I think. Yeah. Yeah. And s and that's really the main reason why this new sector has been brought up, it's been ca it's called first call Yeah. and it's the main reason er that it's been brought about so that we can look after the clients that we have er cos in the past tt erm er how did you come to get the business that you have with us? Was it Ooh! Erm tt I think, oh dear, I saw an advert in the paper I think to, to take out a savings plan or something and I just signed up a, a form and back it came. I see. An and did, did er was that all conducted through the post? Er initially yes, yes I think it was. I got a couple of phone calls from somebody but er Right. But you've had no dealings for the past six or seven years? No not at all and in fact, you know, your call was a, a bolt out the blue as it were. Very Yeah. surprised to hear, well I'm glad to see you but very surprised to hear from you That's right. Well the, I mean the thing is that erm over the past erm we've been recommended to people Mm. I mean like you, you, you chose the route via the post Yes. now there, there must've been one reason why you chose Friends Provident. Erm there's a couple of reasons really, one was to get the free gift Right. that came with it. Yeah that's always good. Well, you know, I think it was a kind of sports bag or something and I thought oh I'll go along with that and the other, I mean I had heard of them before and I made a few enquiries and they said, you know, you you were quite quality company so I thought That's right. yeah I'd give them are, I'd put my money with you people as opposed to the companies. That's fine. Well see that's, that's one route that we do business and the other route is through recommendations from, from either other people Mhm. or from er brokers for instance Right, yeah. er they recommend that y erm Friends Provident to people Mhm. and er that's the main source of our business. Mhm. Now because we, we've done so much business we now need to look after it ourselves Mhm. and this is why I've been today to see you. Right. Okay. Now erm tt with er tt lost now erm no I forget So why are you here? Why have you come to see me anyway? Erm well it was, it was really to go through erm just to, to give you a face so that you've got someone to contact Mhm. Yeah. tt and also to run through your policy that you've got with us Mhm. just to see it's keeping on tract and Right. and erm it's, it's actually performing how you would wish it to. Mm. Erm Well I'm glad you should say that because the bonuses have gone down and that was a Really? that was quite a concern really, no it, I think it was nine percent last year and it's down to about four four and a half That's right. or something like that. Yeah there's been a, a, a big change in the industry itself in Yeah. these past couple of years. Well why has it gone down? Erm well it's,i various changes in erm the upset that we had last year with the recession and Mm. changes in the rates and er it caused endless problems with the whole industry and in fact the country Oh so it's not just you then? no not just us Oh right okay. it was the whole country, we were all suffering. Yeah. But that's really what I want to come and see you about Right, okay. and also show you this new erm tt this new What is it, a planning service or something? plan er yeah financial planning service that we offer all our clients, people Right. like yourselves and they've found it very beneficial in the past. Right. We've found that we've been able to help them er in various aspects of their life. Mhm. Er we deal with their immediate erm plans and also their future plans. Right. Erm and I just would like to offer this service to you. I wonder if you Well I mean how long is it gonna take? Well it should take us roughly erm an hour to an hour and fifteen minutes. Yeah okay. Now the first thing I'd like to do is just give you this, this, this explains that I'm er employed by Friends Provident Mhm. and erm it shows you that I will be erm only off er offering advice on Friends Provident's products Mhm. and they are the only products I will be able to advise you on. Right okay. And also there's my business card and on there you'll see that you've got a contact number Right. so that if at any time you need to get hold of me, don't hesitate just er Okay. get on the phone, I'm just erm a phone call away like they say. Okay, right. Thank you very much. This is the actual er I will need to take some notes during the course of our discussion and this is Yeah, right. what I will be running through. Now of course I will be asking you some personal details like about your family Mhm. I will ask you about your work er your income, your outgoings Right. and just how you see things pa panning out for the future. Mhm. So It's a bit of a meaty document isn't it? It is. There, there's, there's a lot of parts in this which may well be relevant to you but then there's some that may not Right. so er what it actually is is that it's a main form that we can take everybody's circumstances within this Right. so you could be self employed, you could be employed, you could be Mm. you need erm inheritance tax sorted out Mhm. we can do it all within this one form. Right, okay. But as I say some of it may not er no, be relevant to yourself. Right now if I could just er start off here to make sure I've got the er correct post code Mhm. I mean I've got your address which is erm is here, am I missing any part of the address? No, looks right to me. Yeah, and is the post code correct. Yes it is yeah. Right. And the telephone number? Well you rang me. That's right, so that's, that's good enough, yeah. Correct, yeah. Right, now erm would it, would you like me to call you Martin during this discussion or would you like me to keep it to er Mr ? Oh you, you can call me Martin. Thank you. My name, my name's Rob which you may call me. Cheers Rob. Right. If I can just ask you about er your family Do you wanna drink while we're here? Sorry? Would you care for a drink? Er I'll have one a little later if you don't mind. Oh fine, okay. Er if I can just ask you about your wife Mhm. er could you tell me her name please? Yeah sure. And what would that be? Kay. Kay? Kay yeah. Is that K A Y? Yeah that's right, yeah. Has she got any middle names at all? Francis. Francis. Okay. And your children. Mm. You spoke about them earlier Mhm. er could you tell me their names please? Yeah sure. What would they be? Er the eldest is Alex Alex. And would you know his date of birth offhand? Mhm. What would that be? It's the er fif sorry, third of the third eighty five. Now do you have any other children? Yeah, Catherine. Catherine. And could you tell me her date of birth please. Yes. It's the er fifteenth of the tenth eighty five. Eighty? Five. Eighty five. Two in the same year, you did well. Oh sorry one's eighty four one's eighty five. Eighty five. Sorry. And do you have any other children at all? No. No you don't. Do you have any other dependants? No. Okay. Now with erm I will ask you about your health details Mhm. you look a pretty fit guy erm Thank you. is your current state of health good? Yes. Have you had any erm problems in the past? No. No problems at all? No. When was the last time you saw your doctor? When I left the navy I suppose. The navy? Mm. And how long ago was that? About five years now. About five and a half years. What, what's, what were you actually doing in the navy? I used to maintain radars and computer systems and stuff like that, I was an engineer. Oh right. And it was good fun, yeah. And did you, was you able to get round the world much? Yeah I saw a bit of America and the West Indies and the Middle East, bit of Europe. I never did the Far East unfortunately. Mm. did you actually see any action? Er no, thankfully, no, no, no I stayed at home while other people got er shot at. Mm. Good luck. I was quite pleased as well. And do you still keep in contact with er your pals in the navy? Not not really No. the navy's a continual goodbye, people move on to different shore establishments, Er tell me is er are yourself and Kay smokers? Erm Kay does, I don't. Kay does, and does she smoke cigarettes or Yeah, about twenty a day she smokes. And what, what sort of things do you do in your, in your spare time? Erm mm I play erm racquet sports, I play a bit of squash and badminton, but that's about all really. Er er are you involved in a club then? There's a sports centre not too far from here that er I play badminton. Mm. And do, do you normally play with Kay or do you have er Yes, yeah we have we, there's a foursome, another couple we play with on a regular basis. And who, who are the other two? Are they, are they friends of yours that live locally? Yes they just live er a couple do er tt er just down the road from here. Oh right. And what, what was the sport centre you belong to? Well it's just a, I don't know, er the Daventry Sports Centre I think they call it. Oh yeah. And your friends down the road there Mm. that you normally play with erm I wonder if during the course of erm this discussion today if you feel erm that it's gone well for you Mhm. and you feel that you've found some benefit within this discussion Mhm. er I wonder if you, you would mind if I contacted your friends? Don't know about that. Don't know. Have to see what you can do first. Mm what, what sort of problem do you find with that at this stage? Well you've not shown me what you can do erm I don't know you that well. I haven't seen anyone at the company for nearly, what, six seven years and already you say you want to speak to my friends. That's right. Yeah I can, I can perfectly understand that. If you feel that there's some benefit that's come out of this meeting today Mm. erm would you have any objection to letting me contact them? I think I'd talk to them first and if they're agreeable then I'd give you their name and telephone number but I'd have to speak to them first but I wouldn't just give out the name and telephone number on an ad hoc basis. Right. Would you mind if I come back on to that later? Yeah. Okay just moving ahead now, er with your occupation erm is it of a hazardous nature? Erm not particularly, no. Mhm. What, what is it you actually do at this moment? Erm electrical engineer. Right and whereabouts are you based? Er just in Daventry for I B M. I B M? So you're dealing with er photocopiers and Not really I maintain P Cs, the laptops. And how long have you actually been there? About five years, I joined there when I left the Five years. And er they're in Daventry are they? Yes. I B M? Yes they are. Does your wife work at all? No no she's a housewife. Well she works but That's fine. That's it, okay, well done. Oh Never mind. disastrously. I went down the wrong route with the referrals and Never mind we'll just We'll just see how it comes Right. Right. Don't rewind it. Oh right, sorry. I'll get it back to the place. Right. Okay sorry. Right we'll leave you to it. Right. You erm you're, you're a bit uncertain and a bit nervous all the way through it but I think it was, it was basically because you Yeah I lost it totally er you, you got unsettled fairly er fairly early on didn't you? Erm but anyway you s you started off with er with some greeting and er and er appropriate sociability erm one thing I noticed that Martin seemed to take control of the handshake and that's something that was pointed out this morning and, and looked at and from where I was it looked as though he was keeping hold of your hand some time, you had your buyer's guide and whatever in your other hand and you couldn't, you know, bring it over and, and put yourself back into control erm and an interesting one and a, an e an example to all of us I think. Erm you Martin threw one in about being late. You, you apologized for lateness the only thing I wonder on there is er you know it's ea it's easy enough to say that you didn't actually sort of clarify the time that you were gonna be there, you just accepted that you were late erm but I mean that's a you know ju just a point I wonder that rather than apologizing straight of all, straight, straight away if you knew you were late then that was one thing that perhaps you could've got that in the initial greeting. But that's, that's a situation that, you know, you haven't really got control of when it arrive. Erm you seemed to go straight from sort of the, the sociability side into, into a statement of purpose erm and then went back to er how did you come to do business with Friends Provident. Martin mentioned that he, he'd done it by post and you, you ex explored as to why. He said about a, a free gift as the first thing and then he said about made enquiries of others which I thought was almost er er a, a way there of saying well, you know,oth other people more or less recommend Friends Provident. Erm where did we go then? You didn't at that stage I don't think make any sort of link towards referrals and introductions. Missed out sort of tentative benefits erm and went straight into, to talking about the, the C C Q. Er now wait a minute, where are we? Erm one, one of the statements that you did come out with when you, when you were saying about erm why you were there, you said about to make sure that your policy is performing how you wish it to which is as good a one as I did when I said you're obviously satisfied with, with your Friends Provident contract cos we're brilliant erm Martin asked the question about why has the, why has the bonus gone down and, and you overcame that objection er which was good and he, he was, he was satisfied with that. Erm when you actually then moved on to start er start completing the, the C C Q you were asking, asking closed questions er you know you said, said to Martin can you tell me your wife's name and he said yes and it went on about three or four times er yeah alright you were getting the names but you were having to ask two questions to actually get them because you weren't er weren't, you know, asking probe questions, you started off could you. Er with, with, you asked Martin about his dependants and he said he hadn't got any but you didn't question him on the wife's dependants, or his wife's dependants. Having said that when you were looking at the, at the sporting side you er you put in some, some questions about who he was, who he was playing er his sports with, obviously with the idea of, of referrals erm but because in fact I think because you hadn't done anything to referrals earlier on, when you brought it up there was an obj er there was an objection from Martin to it. But er having done that erm you, you apacked his er, his objection very well and in fact you er y you got over that because you, you told him why er and what you could do and, and he, he agreed to er he was certainly a lot warmer then than he was initially. Erm as far as the C C Q itself was concerned you, you gave an awful lot of information about the sort of things you were gonna look for when Martin said about, you know, what's in it and it's, it's pretty big and what have you you mentioned a lot of subjects or a lot of technical jargon which may or may not have meant anything to the client rather than just say well, you know, some of it won't, may well not apply to you. Erm Martin offered you a drink which in fact you quite rightly I think refused at that stage. I don't know whether, whether it sort of erm rang any bells with you but normally if you're in a house people don't offer you dri they usually say would you like a cup of tea or a cup of coffee and I just wondered, perhaps it's my suspicious nature,whether this guy's got a drink problem Too deep, too deep. Erm the other thing that, that I couldn't quite hear but I thought when you were asking him about where he'd been with the navy, I thought he said to the Far East unfortunately. Did you say that? No I hadn't been to the Far East unfortunately. Oh I see, sorry, I I hadn't been to the Far East. Yeah, right. Ah that, that's alright, that's okay well that, that is me, I couldn't hear. Erm but I say there, there were a couple of erm objections that came up during the course of the conversation which really resulted because you, you'd fallen down on the actual structure, but having said that then again there were two or three examples that you apacked and you got through very well and you, you recovered yourself well on that and, and I say really I think that's er that's covered most of the bits that, that I felt were, were there. Okay. Joan? Would you like to er Okay. have a go? I'll just erm pick up on maybe some things that you haven't already mentioned. Erm I found the, the greeting and the appropriate sociability to start with very hesitant but I think that was most probably just nerves on your part Robert, I don't think it was something that you would usually have a problem with. Erm and then after the, the greeting you went, the actual erm way that you went was statement of purpose and then you did actually start asking for referrals, you started but then you didn't actually follow anything up, you started the script of referrals but you didn't actually follow it up again with anything. And then you went on to the stat the statement of purpose again followed by your business and buy business card and buyer's guide so erm tt that was that. Erm you closed questioned which I thought Martin made very difficult for you but er obviously intentionally but erm what else is it you mentioned erm pension or benefits from the navy, you never actually picked up on whether he had any erm pension benefit from, from the forces which is something that, that we would have had to have made a note of. Erm the, the other thing I noticed was that there is very little or no eye contact at all with Martin so you, you were never really looking at him when you were asking questions or when he was giving you the answers back, so there was no er visual acknowledgement whenever he was, he was coming back to you. I'm not quite sure whether you were commending Martin for being able to have two children in the same year That was a mistake. so that I'm not quite sure whether speedy gonzales here. I'm not quite sure whether that was a pat on the back or what but anyway erm and when Martin offered you for a drink I actually took it as a cup of tea actually so I I think, yeah. so I actually took it the other way that, you know, do you just want a cup of tea. I mean Yeah. it was it was morning or afternoon or whatever. Erm you did try and pick up, I think you realized that er you hadn't done your ref er your referrals properly at the beginning and you actually came back to it erm at the end erm trying to pick up on where you left off and erm Martin was very non-committal at that point. Erm and the other thing was that erm when Martin picked you up for being late, you didn't even give a reason for being late. Erm I wanted to make sure I'd got the right turning I think was the answer but there was no reason to say I had problems finding you or I was held up I'm sorry for that or, or anything, there was no, there was no actual acknowledgement or reason for being late. But in saying that I'll go ahead, I'll go ahead with what Robert said although it seems as if erm between us we picked up on a lot of things, there was some objections that Martin threw at you that I thought you handled particularly well. Mm. Erm Bill? Very near the beginning Maggie gave a wee tip, don't say you're a representative say you're an employee of Friends Provident, it makes life easier. He actually corrected it later on when he has to go back into it but, you know, just, just a wee point there erm you did, did it initially but corrected it later on when you, you came back into it. I actually mar marked twelve closed questions as it so happened but that's, that's neither here nor there, that's ju that's just a point of reference. Erm you created er your own problem by saying how long is it since you've seen an F P representative you're just building a barrier up again. If he raises it, fine, you deal, deal with it as an objection but if you know don't, don't invite objections er . Who did Martin check with before he took out the F P er policy? And one other thing was er what did you see the doctor about when you were in the navy. Mm. Er you saw the er saw him five years ago in the navy, now it could've been just a regular check which every seaman gets or it could be, it could've been something of a serious nature. Mm. One thing I will commend you for, it took a lot of ball to carry on even when you had lost the thread. Mm. Bear that in mind. That's the important thing. You stuck with it. Once you get your structure, you'll win. Erm not much more to add really I think. Erm I thought you hung in there for referrals there, that was good, you, you were, you were a terrier there, you're gonna get stuck in for referrals. The old handshake was just I was gonna see who was gonna let go first, well he wasn't gonna let go so I thought erm you know there was no sort of, you know, about handshake or anything daft like that he just, he just wouldn't let go of my hand so I had to pull off really. Erm the te I liked the tentative benefit, here to look after your clients, put a name to a face erm help keep you on track, yeah I liked that, that was good. Er handle the objection about the bonuses cos they have gone down Mm. you know so I think be aware of that, that may be a valid erm observation to be thrown back at you. The permission of procedure, yes I'm offering this service to you, that was good. Erm I think, yeah,o over elaborate erm explanation of why the C C Q, that went on a bit long. I think a structured note take a few notes, will that'll be okay, done, put to bed. And I think overall I think until you get really familiar with the structure, keep it with you, you know, and just refer back, that'll keep you on track. But all in all erm I admire you for actually to hang in there, there was a few pregnant pauses but you kept going. Well t I mean to be honest erm tt I wanted to try some different things er cos I've seen these guys today Yeah. so I wanted to try and go for the C C Q, this is it, this is what we're gonna ask you and of course it didn't work but I had to try it to see. Yeah. And of course I spoke erm er there I spoke a lot slower than I normally do. Yes I thought, yes it was at a sort of slow pace that was, yeah Normally I'm I'm going, I'm racing. Yeah I'd stick to that. and I, and I thought well let's try it cos you know I'm going on what we it was brought up On Friday. was it Friday? Er you know and keep your, and I just can't do it. No don't, don't I have too much time to think then and that, that's what throws me. Don't try and be something that you're not Yeah. if you talk quickly and you're a er I mean you're very erm elaborate erm That's right. gregarious, you know you've always, er your arms are everywhere Yeah. if that is you, be you. You know, stick with it, that's your strength. That's it, and er so I wanted to try all these things and of course Yeah okay there's nothing wrong with that it didn't work. Yeah. But this is the place to try these things cos the more you try the better you become Sure. but I'd be tempted to stick with what you know you can do when you're actually in front of the customer. Yeah. Yeah. Cos I mean they won't be as, as hyper-critical as we are. See and, and, and normally, and I, I don't know if, if it's correct with us, but normally I would, I would speak to the client talk to him, you know, about different things, whatever, go into his business and all sorts Yeah. and then I would say well you know I just need to make a few notes Yeah. can we just put that down Yes. Yeah. and then start writing but sort of go over it a bit more, do a lot more talking first before Yeah. I start actually writing anything. Okay. Now is that okay to do that? Yes it is, yeah. Oh well then that's what I would normally do. Yeah. I think so long as you can keep the parts of the structure there erm and try not to reinvent the wheel Yeah. I think if you're gonna do something that er deviate, because the thing is when you do your tandem calls, they're gonna want to see the structure Sure. and if you wander off too far from the structure Yeah. then they'll mark you down as being non-competent Yeah. and you need the to get on level two. So I think if you have a plan of attack which you feel works better for you then I think you must run it by your manager first of all to get his agreement before you See I would, I would spend much much more time socializing Yeah. and then say well look the reason why I'm here is this Well the whole point of it is, is and then go in to it but Yeah. I wouldn't hit it so early you see, I would Yeah. spend more time talking to him Good. Well there's nothing wrong in that but I think be aware of the potential danger that if it is too long Yeah. you're only there for an hour or so you may have, I don't know, twenty minutes of appropriate sociability which builds a rapport tremendously well Sure. you start to probe and disturb and you've gotta it short. Yeah. So I think time management will be key there if that's the way you wanna do it. Now as I said way back at the very beginning, the greeting and appropriate sociability will set the scene if it's too short or too long it will doubtlessly alienate the whole process but you can see the domino effect you but you can see the domino effect you Yeah that's right. and you miss bits out , you're all the information and you haven't probed properly, you haven't disturbed and a weak first is a weak second etcetera etcetera etcetera. So it was good, good to see it cos then they now know that it's, that's Yeah, yeah. I think, you know, get up there and stick to the structure Mm. and if you wanna do something slightly different then do it in a role play scenario with a manager or a senior adviser and er get their feedback accordingly but I'd be te I wouldn't be tempted to do it in the real world. He's also tried to change himself I think and that I mean And that isn't you. you're alright Yeah. there isn't, there isn't, there is nothing wrong with the way that you are Yeah. so you certainly don't try to change it. I mean look at the difference from that and Friday. Yeah. Yeah. But does that mean that you feel intimidated by me then? No no no no I just wanted to try a different s Right. different things. Mm. I think we said to you on Friday erm both me and Roger actually said that he he went into er he went in for the kill and he c he came out with slaughter and, and that's not happened and, and he explained that that's what he was us that's what you were used to doing That's right. Mm. and both of us said he, he was, he was very good at it Mm. erm er but it was, it was like the bits in between that he used to slot in, you know the erm the referrals to proceed. Yeah. he never does that and that, and that's what we were saying on Friday and it seems like, and I think you've tried to put all those in but change yourself a bit. Yeah. And, and it, it will work now, as simple as that. And, and like with the objections I would fire them straight down without I concede that you've gotta say I can er understand you saying that, you know Well this is what happens now that that'll become clear but just just but I I acknowledge it as they come they can fire at me every sentence and I Yeah. I will kick them straight down Yeah. erm I don't wanna say that's the right way to be honest No. I can understand but er I'm, I'm used to just going Yeah. let's go for it er but there I was going much slower and there was all this thoughts going on in my head and Mm. Yeah. and, and that's er it's all the slowness which was doing me in. It was right at the very beginning when you had to ask him about the introduction, I thought you were going straight off from the business card and all the rest of it and what you actually had was your C C Q in front of you because it took you all that time to get round to it. Yeah there was lots of bits of paper floating around it was, it was a Yeah, that's right. a bit of a distraction really. Mhm. I think you just got thrown at the beginning and I think he you off and That's right it was But then they will do that to you, that's, that's the annoying Yeah. thing. Mm. It was Thing was in fairness Martin er er it's actually the sociability side er both both of you talked about the house didn't you and how, how long you came here and of course I changed it to how, the directions er which you gave me now Yeah. you may walk into a house and there's, it's loaded with trophies and you say och whose, ah these are nice trophies, who won these trophies Yeah. That's right. it's totally There's something to focus on. it's, that's right Yeah. there's something that you can just Yeah I agree with that. In saying that though Robert Martin did make it difficult for you. No no I didn't mind that and I'm, I, I could, I could sit with that all day long, that wouldn't worry me, he wouldn't, he wouldn't beat me down just erm I would keep going so that, that doesn't worry me but it was all these other things I was trying It's actually good which it's actually good practice having somebody like Martin then Oh sure. because because at least he does throw the objections at you and so at least you're made aware of what you That's right. You learn nothing from a role play that's all easy-peasy That's right so that's I think that's why I really wanted to try all these other avenues cos I'd watched them all and, and each one, no disrespect to any of them, but We were predictable. as, as they went on they got better. Well they will do, yeah. You know like Bob, Bob You learn from each other. went up there first and then so it got better and so it got better and, and Will was marvellous Mm. there's no question about it and I thought well let's try the other way, let's, let's throw all this C C Q and, and all the rest of it to see how it falls. Now you've had the, the benefit of hindsight which would you rather go with, the structured way or the, you know, the way you did it at the I th I would go with these much structured. Good. I was er er there was something that I got told many years ago that I And also sorry, excuse me like the other points there are you a smoker, no my wife does, she smokes twenty was you a smoker Mm. who knows? Yeah. And, and about your wife Yeah. I mean I went straight in, tell me about your wife, I mean you could've said well she's not my wife Mm. Oh yes and then we'd've gone down a different avenue It's the C C Q driving isn't it? That's right. But that's lack of familiarity with Yeah. with So What I was going to say is I was told erm some time ago that praise doesn't mean anything without criticism and I actually believe that. Praise doesn't mean anything without criticism. But it, it just goes to show you that, you know if you, if if you go down the structured way, it does work. Alright Wouldn't wouldn't you agree with that though? Praise doesn't mean anything without criticism. Oh I agree with you. I've got that video tape. Excuse me a second I'll just do a quick Yeah sure, yes. The answer too is other than to try and work towards the two communities will agree on something and that's how your how you'll like it. agree . Well don't have to be just . John created . I mean it's looking now. I mean there are some people in Britain who feel that if we were to mount a really effective counter-terrorist operation. Just say it was some revolutionary group I mean that people like , you know, have said that the British secret intelligence have been have been doing now for a quite long time have been waging a sort of undercover war and er I'm sure some of it's true M I five operates it in Northern Ireland and has got this whole series you may well have seen the television programme recently about these people who work undercover and who work for the intelligence and they they work themselves into the I R A and become members and then they feed the information back to British it's been very successful and a couple of insiders is risky and we eventually when they are discovered who these people are, they have to be given new identities, plastic surgery and the works. Could U N troops be sent in? It would be very difficult wouldn't it because the British then would be sort of admitting that you know, what would they do if their own troops were sent in, what would they do? Well they'd basically do what the British troops would do but they wouldn't lose much hate against them would they? hate but there'd still be this kind of feeling that, you know, why are they here, what is the purpose? You see the problem is, we've yet to discover what the purpose is of all this. I mean for the Republicans the purpose is a united Ireland. For the loyalists the purpose is to remain part of the U K and those two are so far apart, those two positions, that it's impossible to see a bridge between them and that's the difficulty. That is the big point. What are the teachings like in schools? Sort of history and things do the Catholics teach in it's the protestants' fault and stuff like that A lot of bias, yeah, I mean because that 's that's the way it is over there, there's an awful lot of prejudice and there's an awful lot of They sort of bring up . They bring up their kids to hate Yeah that 's and it's got worse in the last twenty or thirty years it's got much worse I think. breeding another generation of terrorists Exactly, yeah. all the history is about erm, years ago when and all that. Oh yeah. So it's actually all about what the English did Yes it is. Comes down . It is yeah and these stories are passed on about what the British, you know, troops did a hundred and fifty years ago. It's a sort of passed on from one generation to the next and it is you know, you will see people, hear people talking about it as if it was yesterday. This hatred builds up and is then passed on to the next generation. O K so I thought that was useful because it might actually, is something that, because it's been in the news a lot this year, hasn't it? If I was setting an exam paper for summer it would be something I would think about putting in not that I am setting it in case you think I hadn't. . What are we doing now . Er we're still looking at erm and congress That essay is due in today isn't it? What? Present Economist essay. Alright. Sorry? . . you you've had it for about three or four weeks. Sorry? You being serious. I am indeed really. Yeah question of it was. . Using and instead of or Oh that 's Remember that one? . Thank you. One question finished Well we've, we're looking at congress now until, that that's it, it's our last topic. . Yeah. O K can I have those in then fairly shortly. Yes . I've got Donna's, I've got Mark's, I've got Catherine's, Lillan's, so who can I hassle, Michael well done . Vanessa . . . . Right so, David I reminded you about that letter, when are you gonna bring it . Tomorrow . . Tomorrow, are you going to give it to Mr or do you want to give it to me to give to him or whatever suits you give it to you Right . in registration yeah . . O K so look let me just go through these notices er for today's tutorial period, one or two changes erm again a thought for the week from the chaplain to begin with, during the approaching season of Lent, the best thing we can do is to centre our thoughts on what Jesus Christ did for us through his passion, death and resurrection. He paid a debt which he did not owe because we are a debt that we will never be able to pay. Please also remember that Ash Wednesday, which is this Wednesday, is one of the only two days a year on which we are asked to fast and to abstain from eating meat. If we're vegetarian another possible act of penance would be to abstain from alcohol or cigarettes. Whatever we do for Lent could be done for an intention or our families. Usual er mass times throughout the week eight thirty five, all days this week including Thursday but Wednesday, which is Ash Wednesday, there's a mass at five past nine in the chapel, so what's normally at nine o'clock on Wednesday? Decode. So decode is not there this Wednesday. Mass at nine o'clock this Wednesday, with no mass on Thursday at ten. So there's gonna be a few timetable rearrangements. There's no decode on Wednesday. There's no decode Wednesday morning but it reappears, it reappears on Thursday. When? I'll tell you in a minute. . . So timetable changes for the week and taking that into account include, like you said, like I said mass instead of decode on Wednesday. No other timetable changes on Wednesday but on Thursday, nine to ten forty is a double decode. Now how's that different, that would normally be . Thursday. Yeah, yeah. That's right, it's a two normally. Well it isn't this week so it's D one D two, D one from nine to ten, D two from ten to ten forty. So your decode that you miss on Wednesday makes an appearance along with the other decode that normally lives on Thursday in a one and a half hour session from nine to ten forty. Ten forty registration, ten forty five break. I'll send this round in a moment, er double decode B between break and lunch, is that usual? Yeah, yeah. Erm A two is now at one thirty. So that's when the D two would have been after lunch, yeah. Instead it's A two which would have been at nine o'clock and from nine to ten forty five or ten forty instead you've got the decode from the afternoon plus the decode from the Wednesday, so double decode, one and a half hours on . yep and then E one, E two as usual on Thursday. Second year parents' evening on Wednesday, seven to nine o'clock, er second years you know that it probably makes sense to be there erm with your parents er this Wednesday the no not this Wednesday, Wednesday week the twenty third, which is next Wednesday, there's no leisure centre for first year students, er and in fact there are no Wednesday afternoon activities at all next Wednesday. That's not this Wednesday, it's Wednesday the twenty third. Erm, it says they'll be a tutorial period for students to work on record of achievement inserts and personal statements, O K that's second and first years. . I don't know, good question. Er Coursefinder two thousand er was last Thursday afternoon at three o'clock er a number of students weren't able to come, some people may have forgotten. I don't think there's anyone here in this tutor group who didn't go, who were supposed to go. Private exam entries. If you've been entered privately then you need to pay your exam fees for this summer's exams er as soon as possible, er Mrs is collecting those. The twenty four hour fast is this Wednesday, because it's Ash Wednesday, is that right? it was last . Was it? No it was last week, that's right. Anyway, any money, sponsorship money, erm you're asked to hand in to Mr as soon as possible. One year student interviews, I think doesn't apply. Er notes to all students, it says it is not acceptable to take food and drinks into the corridors. I have to remind you all, you that food and drink should be kept in the dining room, sounds reasonable enough. If you want a note about timetable change I'm sending this round so note it down . So er . Has Christine been seen this morning? . Right, erm some absences, were you away on Friday? . You were slightly late weren't you. Margaret I've got you down as absent Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday last week. Now I know that some of those days we sort of said hi I'm here naturally Yeah I was away on Tuesday and I trip on Wednesday. So visit I was here actually. and you were in Thursday, Friday. Can you do one of these please for Tuesday. Brian were you in Monday and Wednesday last . Wednesday you were . . David I need to ask you what that's there. What's that? . . Oh God. . Hello Catherine. Hello, sorry I'm late. . . That's nice. . Does she get upset? . . . . Oh no. . . Right I'll be for the rest of the tutorial really, erm find yourselves something to do, I just really want to follow up er the little amount of time that I spent with second years er looking at their action plans. Er all of you, all of you prioritising some sort of organisation and planning of revision, so I've got some ideas that you might want to try on that score so first years, I'm sure like Clare you must have some work to do . . . So you're not here on Wednesday as well Anna is that right. Sir? You're not here on Wednesday either? . . . . Really. Yeah. . That's all . . Hello and welcome to Central Lobby. Later in the programme we ask are positive discrimination and chauvinism thriving in the Labour Party? But first there was time when reading a soccer report in a Sunday newspaper meant catching up on how many people were stabbed and how many pitches were invaded. The football authorities say we can now concentrate on what happens on the field rather than the terrace, because hooliganism is being forced out of the game. The introduction of all-seater stadiums along with the new football offences act which makes it illegal to run onto the pitch are believed to be responsible for the reduction in violence. But arrests relating to football have failed to show a consistent decline and actually increased by more than twenty percent in the ninety one ninety two season. And it's claimed the battle against the hooligans is still far from won. Yesterday Andrew Fox went to the hotly contested local derby between Wolves and Stoke. This was the image of football in the eighties a game dogged by fans fighting on the terraces and running onto the pitch. You might have thought this sort of behaviour was all over. It's not now. Rotterdam this month brought it home the hooligans are continuing to plague the game. Soccer it's claimed is still a long way off finding a cure for violence. Anyone who er regularly attends soccer games knows full well that the game does attract a minority of er young men who for whom a punch-up on a Saturday afternoon is all part of the game. So I fear er that any decline is er theoretical rather than a real one. I still think we have this problem, not as serious as it was about established rivalries between particular groups of fans. what's interesting is that those rivalries are not focused as strongly as they used around the very big clubs, and we're talking less here about what's gonna happen at Manchester United and Chelsea and perhaps more about the difficulties of Wolves and and Stoke. Wolves in fact have done more than most to provide evidence that the game is ridding itself of violence. The football authorities come to Molyneux to support their claims that grounds are now fit for families, not homes for hooligans. In just four seasons here the number of people arrested on charges connected with football have fallen from more than three hundred and fifty to just under one hundred. It's been a long time since a league game was played at Molyneux against Stoke. Wolves themselves season have been quite well behaved. Er but there are a number of factors. Er for example it's erm it's a local derby. Er very strong rivalry between the two teams. And so er we're expecting perhaps it might be a little bit lively. On the day itself we had briefings er at the ground up here so everybody clearly understands what's expected of them. And in addition to that of course we cover the safety aspects that are required up at Molyneux. Which is as important as preparing for disorder itself. It would be nice to think that we don't have to consider this, we didn't have to have meetings with our local police to decide what we're going to do on the day of the match in case there is trouble. Er yeah by all means er we'd love that situation but er I'm afraid er that's not possible at the moment. Our main priority is to stop trouble inside the ground. I think er the supporters like to be er looked after by the sort of their own people rather than er the the police force. The club has more than two hundred stewards to control the crowds as well as search the ground before anyone gets through the turnstiles. The police have decided to deploy more than one hundred officers on what called a tidal flow operation, slowly shifting their attention from outside to inside the stadium. But this elaborate operation it's claimed only goes to prove that hooliganism rather than disappearing is just lurking beneath the surface. Those of us who attend soccer matches as I do er regularly you've got to say that er it's not gone away, it's merely been contained. And containing it is extremely expensive and I personally feel that it's wrong to expect the community at large to go on paying week after week, month after month, year after year er in order to contain a problem which through no fault of its own belongs to the soccer. To imagine that there is er a great undercurrent of violence inside our football grounds is now quite wrong and I think the game isn't getting enough credit for the way in which it's tackled it. Or it may be there but the police and the stewards aren't allowing it to come out because they're keeping a lid on it so efficiently these days. No I think that's an unnecessarily pessimistic view. I think that crowd behaviour has improved, the clubs are catering much better for families. The climate of violence that used to be there inside football has diminished. As the first fans takes their seats another operation is under way to ensure that some never get to see the game. The police have undercover intelligence officers with the job of spotting troublemakers in particular those who have been banned from Molyneux. We're always looking out for somebody who could cause er problems in Wolverhampton and problems generally. The er How do you know what sort of person that is? Comes with experience. Lot's of different factors go into it. Er sometimes what they're wearing you you find that er they tend to wear er a little bit of a uniform on occasions but they're not the normal people that we would be looking at. And not the ones with er I'm a hooligan tattooed on their heads. With the fans now streaming through the turnstiles, many of them being stopped and searched before going any further, there's a final briefing for the man who could influence their mood, referee Paul Harrison . unclear we will only come on the pitch when you invite us and we will deal with anything off the pitch. You give a decision instantaneously? An honest decision. And it's only after that decision that you are aware of any crowd reaction. Er not at the time that you did it. Always comes seconds later. Any more of that ? The atmosphere may as they say be electric but it's nothing compared with the nervous energy being generated in this box. From here police and stewards are directed to the slightest hint of trouble between the rival fans. let's er keep an eye on the bottom now. Summat gone over the top now. give me the red give me the brown jerkin It's hard to see er er a situation in which the kind of young men that we routinely produce in this country er are not gonna be interested in some kind of group aggressive violent activities. It's hard to see er a change in their interest in this kind of thing. Football merely provides the opportunity because a match is taking place but if they we if the football matches weren't taking place those criminal acts would be committed in another context. Football has done it its best in order to cope with the problem inside the grounds. You can see it's a tense game er we've said before it's a local derby and er there are one or two minor problems. You've had arrests already? Yes we've had one or two arrests but they're disorder offences and minor disorder offences. We still have a small hard core of football supporters that are willing and able to create trouble if they're given the chance. But I think if we persist if the club and ourselves continue the way that we're going those numbers will become less and less. As the game ends the police prepare to respond to any clash while supporters make their way home. Scuffles are reported but they're not given the chance to develop into any serious disturbance. The Stoke coaches are escorted as far as the motorway. And within an hour of the final whistle the police operation is called off. Of course for the police the one one score line is not as important as these figures, eighteen arrests and thirteen ejections from the ground. That's out of a crowd of more than twenty thousand. I think it's it's fairly reasonable particularly when you consider what we've experienced over the last two three and four seasons. What sort of offences were there? Erm people spitting er obscenities, obscene gestures, er we've had two assaults er but they have been relatively minor assaults as far as we're concerned. There is a violent undercurrent in our society which has got nothing at all to do with football and where football mustn't be complacent is to provide the opportunities at its matches to allow that undercurrent of violence to manifest itself. I think the game I think the game has done well in tackling that problem but I don't think we as a society have done very well in tackling it in the country at large. Football clubs, football supporters er and parliaments have got to talk between themselves to try and come up with a solution. At the moment all we're doing is keeping the lid on a still a pretty serious problem. Well last night only three days after the shadow cabinet elections one of the women MPs who was thrown off John Smith's core team accused her male parliamentary colleagues of a cynical plot and a stitch-up. Ann Clwyd who was not re-elected to her heritage post used her address to the Welsh Labour Women's Conference to attack macho M Ps. After the change in party rules forcing all Labour MPs to vote for four women in the shadow cabinet elections, has Labour's policy horribly backfired? I'm joined by Labour's Mel Reed M E P for Leicester and the Labour MP for Joe Ashton. Mel Reed first of all what went wrong? Is positive discrimination the way forward? I think it still is the way forward and I don't think it was so much that things went wrong as that they didn't go as well as we had hoped for the women elections to the shadow cabinet. It may be that it's time to look again, even though this new rule has been enforced for only these elections, at this particular method of positive discrimination. Joe Ashton who did you vote for? And and is it is it a case of misogyny basically rife within the Labour Party ? No no it isn't. There are some brilliant Labour women in parliament. I mean the speaker Betty Boothroyd is magnificent. Mel Reed is a superb M E P. It's nothing to do with with that sort of battle. It is the fact that if you change the goalposts you'd better make sure the ball still goes between 'em. And that's what the women did. And what they didn't understand was the basic experience of any trade union branch which says if you wanna get six or eight people elected you don't put fourteen up. The thirty seven strong women's could not agree among themselves on what's known as a . And if they had stuck six or eight pe eight women MPs up they'd have all been elected. But fourteen of 'em were saying, No, me me me, and it er spread the vote too thin. Joe Ashton are you saying that really there was no plot as such that there wasn't a sort of campaign that er some of the women MPs have claimed there was? There wasn't a plot. There was some disgruntlement because what happened they tr they changed the rules. Now the first time they tried to change them in May they lost the vote, the women, to increase it from three to four. Usually in the Labour party any other organization you're gonna have to wait a year but the women didn't. They went round the back door and got to John Smith and they got the chief whip and got the chairman of the party and had a rerun of the vote two weeks later. This time they won. And er the men then got resentful, they said this is not on. You know they they should they should abide by the rules and wait a year. And that's when the sort of backlash built up. Mel Reed do you think you could have predicted this sort of backlash? That perhaps things were moving too quickly? I don't think so and I I find it difficult to believe and disappointing to believe that as many man are would deliberately spoil their vote. This is a very serious matter the election to Labour's shadow cabinet and I do not want to believe that men would deliberately spoil their vote. But I think it's a little bit rich if I may say so Joe to blame the women for this because the parliamentary Labour party did vote for this new rule and the fact that a number of women very able women put themselves forward, I don't think it's right to say it is the women's fault. A large number of men put their names forward in a a perfectly proper way. What happened though did in in essentially basically dilute the vote and the spoiling tactics were allowed to happen. That surely was women's fault. Do you think the danger in positive discrimination is that er it's implying that women can't compete on equal terms with the men in the first place? No I don't think that is the problem. I think we have to face up to the fact in the Labour party that quotas, that positive discrimination are essentially clumsy. They can backfire they can lead to some injustices but what they are is a signal that other methods of getting a better representation of women in parliament, in local councils has really not worked. This is the real dilemma you see. I think either we as a Labour party are serious about having more women in the House of Commons and we do very badly compared with many of our European neighbours. We either say we are serious and look for ways to achieve that or we say we've failed. But we all we can do is reflect the position of women in society, and I do not think that what's we're about and I do not think it's what the parliamentary Labour party . No it wasn't a backlash against women. It was a backlash against quotas where you have got to vote for a certain number. We don't have a section for the disabled, but it hasn't stopped David Blunkett and Jack Ashley. Joe just Doing tremendously well . Just briefly how do you encourage more women into the Labour party, very briefly, when they constitute fifty two percent of the population? But they're not fifty two percent of the candidates. And what we've got in standing for a general election is about two and a half thousand men and about five hundred women. There is no way you're gonna get equality Just with that volume. Just very briefly Mel I suspect perhaps a lot of women would stand if conditions in parliament were more I'm sure that they would do. In the European Parliament for example we do have a nursery we have child-care facilities for seventy children which you don't have in the House of Commons . Perhaps. I'm afraid there we must leave it but perhaps that is the way forward. Thank you both very much indeed for joining us. Well here it is, part three of those memoirs. In today's serialization in the Sunday Times Lady Thatcher concentrates on the Falklands conflict. She criticizes the then Foreign Secretary Frances now Lord Pym for the part he played, he would have agreed to a negotiated settlement, she would have regarded that as nothing less than surrender. Lady Thatcher's been on the road promoting her book and a couple of nights ago she was in Birmingham at a dinner hosted by the Birmingham Post. There is of course nothing new in the battle by memoir. You have to go back a very long way indeed to a more decorous age when politicians didn't use the memoir as a weapon for reopening old wounds. There were nineteenth century memoirs and occasionally they were quite revealing but it's Lloyd George's memoirs of the Great War, the First World War that set in many ways the modern pattern for old battles to be re-fought. And indeed as Lady Bracknell would say for ready money. That's not to say however that occasionally you don't get throwbacks to a gentler more courteous age. For example Alec Hume's memoirs were described them as this little book about fishing, a beautiful evocation of a countryman in Downing Street who would always rather have been with his fly on the river Tweed on the Scottish Borders. So it's not a progression all in one way but I have to say that even by the standards of the Lloyd George era, the battle by memoir which we now see for considerable sums of money has become more than a cottage industry, it's a production line industry. That industry probably started in nineteen seventy five with the diaries of Labour's Richard Crossman. After his death his executors decided to breach the convention of not disclosing private conversations with other ministers and officials. The ecology did change in mid seventy five. But I sometimes think it's earlier than that. It's now forgotten that when Hugh Dalton began to publish his memoirs with large chunks of his diary in in the late fifties and early sixties, particularly the the high tide volume that came out about the Labour government of forty five to fifty one which was very venomous. He was a deeply deeply unpleasant man Hugh Dalton. What would you say have been the successes and the flops of more recent times? The ones that have done well in publishing terms quite rightly I think are those who have pl been plainly written by the person concerned, above all Dennis Healey and also Roy Jenkins. Now I have to be careful what I say about Lady Thatcher's because of the laws of libel and also I don't know who's written which pieces but it's known she's had help you see. And when I see a wonderful phrase like William Waldegrave is like without the jokes I think now I wonder if she thought or said that? Is that quite her style of humour? Could it not be one of the two or three people who've helped her with the writings? Just touch that bit up. I may be entirely wrong but I'm going to be reading those when I'm allowed to put my hands on a copy finally. and I constantly wonder now is that Robin Harris speaking or is that Mrs Thatcher? Is that John O'Sullivan with one of his ripe little one-liners or is that Mrs Thatcher? Or is this perhaps my old friend Bernard Ingham coming in one more time to help the lady of his adoration? But if I can just quote a couple of cases. You would've thought wouldn't you that Cecil Parkinson's memoirs would've sold very well, in fact they were a complete flop. Again I don't want to be uncharitable but Cecil Parkinson I suspect in the public view is a man somewhat but not entirely without trace. He just left a little trace of Brylcreem in any government seat he occupied. Now by and large you don't want Brylcreem boys' memoirs do you? What people like is a brilliant bruiser like Dennis Healey, a character with a capital C. Parkinson is much too variety I think to appear more widely. Why do you think they do it? Well the tom tiddlers of British political life I suppose write their memoirs for a couple of reasons because they can't ever admit to themselves they are tom tiddlers. Catharsis there's nothing like reflecting in tranquillity to help heal those wounds, and most of them were pretty bruised by the nineteen eighties' experiences of the recent crop. And some of them think they're gonna make money. Even those that tend not to do very well attract some kind of an advance. And also given the nature of the kind of people who want to wield authority over others they can't bear being out of the limelight, it gives them one last throw. Particularly if they get serialized in the Sunday newspaper. One last time the name is going to be talked about in the circles that bother about these things and it's all to do with Mrs Thatcher who's prone to say about her enemies vanity, vanity, all is vanity. Peter Hennessey talking to our reporter Philip Tibenham. With just two words, prison works, Home Secretary Michael Howard has upset some members of the judiciary. Next week we try to find out why. Till then goodbye. Bright intervals are possible and apart from the chance of a light shower it should stay dry milder than of late with a top temperature of eleven celsius fifty two fahrenheit in a moderate south easterly wind. Mist and patchy fog will form tonight and drizzle is likely in places too. The overnight low eight celsius that's forty six degrees fahrenheit. Good afternoon from the county's favourite station it's half past twelve. Radio Nottingham news headlines with Alison Ford. Calverton Colliery is to close in just three weeks' time. The proposed closure was confirmed just twenty four hours after British Coal announced the pit was to go into the review procedure and revealed that it's lost more than six million pounds in the last six months. British Coal's Midlands Group Director John Longdon has recommended that Calverton should cease production by November the nineteenth. Nottinghamshire police have released a recording of a girl they believe called the Kingsmill Hospital at Sutton in Ashfield claiming she'd had a baby. They think it's the same teenager who's made at least a dozen calls to the police and a hospital in Lincolnshire she sometimes uses the name Cindy and sometimes Linda. She says she's fourteen and that the father of her child is her own dad. A member of staff has been suspended from a centre for the handicapped in Nottinghamshire pending an internal investigation. The probe at Redoaks Training Centre in Ringworth follows a police investigation at Stonecross Lane Residential Unit in Mansfield. Nottinghamshire County Council won't confirm what the latest allegations are. They've stressed the two cases aren't linked. A Nottingham car salesman who went with two prostitutes aged fourteen and fifteen has been jailed for three years. Forty seven year old John House of Fairwell Drive in Bulwell denied having unlawful sexual intercourse with the girls but was found guilty at Nottingham Crown Court. Recorded crime in England and Wales rose by three point eight per cent in the year to June. Home Office figures put the total of offences at a record five point seven million but the rate of increase showed a sharp drop on the two previous years and more than half the recorded crime was either theft of or from vehicles. And Nottinghamshire's business leaders are the least confident in the East Midlands about the prospects of increased sales according to a survey by the accountants Price Waterhouse. The survey also says that ten per cent of the county's companies think the market will actually contract in the next six months. Those are the headlines I'll be back with the news in detail at one o'clock. At twelve thirty two traffic and travel for Wednesday lunchtime listen for a space in a moment first traffic further afield from Jonathan Clays. And we take a long range view if you're heading on the motorways this afternoon. Er locally no real troubles on the M One er if you're heading down to Leicestershire we have the work at twenty two on the M One not really causing too many troubles but some brand new work on the go in Northants today between junctions nineteen and eighteen that's the M Six down towards Rugby. Southbound looks pretty slow heading into those roadworks as well for the time being. Of course at the top of Derbyshire at junction thirty on the M One we still have the work there. Again just two lanes open can slow things and a quick glance elsewhere well no real troubles reported just a look at the A One Stanford still the roadworks on the go there both north and south will slow things down. Jonathan Clay's A A Roadwatch. The Forest park and ride attendant tells me they're fairly busy but with still parking space site for the moment and there's room to park on the Colwick Race Course and the Queens Drive site too and that's service does offer free parking for yourself and your passengers and you can travel into and out of the city again for a pound. Not too many problems on the parking front in the centre of Mansfield. The Walken Street car park attendant tells me there's still plenty of parking space available there. In Nottingham city centre though the Royal Hotel car park that's fairly busy and there are still queues at both entrances of the Victoria Centre and it will take you a good few minutes if you want to get yourself parked in Trinity Square car park they're still operating on a one out one in basis so obviously better to avoid that one if you want to get yourself parked up you can avoid those queues there's plenty of room at the Stoney Street car park that's in the Market there's always the Fletchergate car park St James Street you'll find that next to the Albany Hotel or you could er make your way to the Broadmoor Centre you won't have to queue to get in there. Next update in around twenty five minutes time. F M one O three point eight and ninety five point five it's Radio Nottingham Nottinghamshire's favourite station. Now it's erm twelve thirty four let's go back to the news this lunchtime. As we've just heard in the headlines Nottinghamshire police have taken the unusual step of releasing a recording of a girl they believe has made at least a dozen calls claiming she's given birth. The initial call was made to the Kingsmill Hospital in Sutton in Ashfield on Saturday night. Since then she's contact Nottinghamshire and Lincolnshire police and the Lincoln County Hospital. She uses two name Cindy and Linda and claims to be fourteen years old. She says she lives on a housing estate on the outskirts of Mansfield. says that I was the one that killed it and I didn't. He was the one that got me pregnant and he says that I can't come home at all now and I phoned the hospital, yes, and they said that come in and if I go in then you're going to arrest me and then you'll just call my dad like you always have done every time I've run away from home and then every time you lot have took me back home and then I end up getting pregnant. Acting Detective Superintendent Mick Cox is leading the enquiry he's been talking to Nigel Bell and telling him they're convinced that the same girl has made all the phone calls. We sent er our er receptionist to Lincoln to listen to the tape recording. Er she'd held the girl in conversation at Mansfield er for quite a while and she's listened to the tape and she's convinced it's the same girl. Given the amount of calls and the fact that they're telephoned in different areas it seems a lot of trouble to go through if it was a hoax. Yes exactly and er you've heard the tape er she sounds very harassed er and we're concerned for her welfare. When was the last telephone call made? On Monday evening we had all these these calls over a three day period. What's come out in the in the telephone call which you recorded was that er the father baby she is alleging is actually her own father what do you think do you think that puts her in any danger the fact that you're making this public that the father may hear this. That's a possibility but this has been talked through with both the Social Services and the the hospital and er we've decided to take that chance. In terms of your inquiries where have you been trying to get information from? What about local schools in the area? We've been in touch with all the local schools in the in the Mansfield area er we've followed up inquiries of girls that have not been at school and so on and er these er have led to er to nothing. She says that she she lives in a on the estate on the outskirts of Mansfield have you been checking around that area? Yes but of of course we've got a number of estates er around the Mansfield er but we have made inquiries we've er er we've made appeals through the press and the radio as you well know. Are there any leads at the moment? None at all only the er er the tape recorded message that she er er left with the er police at Lincoln. Given the prospect that that her father is actually the father of this child do you that she'll still be at home? I've no idea I can't er I can't say whether she would be at home or not. What about assurances then she's obviously distressed she thinks that she's going to be in trouble if she come to the police. Well I'm bothered about her health and that and that's what I must emphasize to her if she's listening that er as far as we're concerned we would want to just give her some sympathy advice and support in relation to this matter. Well what about family ties family ties are strong if she's worried her father's going to get into trouble as well. Yes I can appreciate that but at this moment I'm not worried or bothered about any prosecutions in relation to this matter I'm bothered about the ch the child's er health. She can contact the hospital or the Social Services where who've agreed to er to talk to her and give her all the advice and comfort that she needs. From your point of view apart from waiting for further calls from her what can the police do? Well we're still continuing to to monitor the situation we're still carrying on inquiries at er at schools we're going further afield now in case there is some suggestion that she she might be living further afield er towards Worksop or even in towards Derbyshire. Now if you did recognize the voice or you think you can help the police then there's a free phone number to contact it's O eight hundred six to six nine nine nine it's O eight hundred six to six nine nine nine that's a free phone number so it won't cost you anything to call O eight hundred six to six nine nine nine it's the number to call if you did recognize the voice there or you think you can help the police in any way O eight hundred six to six nine nine nine and there'll be more on that in our next main news which is on the way at one o'clock. Now let's look at some placed to go and thinks to do and people to see for later on today. This lunchtime from one until three the Meadows Community Art Centre are running a craft marathon. You can go along there and make crafts cards and Christmas presents no experience is necessary and you can take one object home each day and the remaining items will be sold at a Christmas Craft Fair to raise funds for the arts project. It's free to have a go and the Centre is on Queens Walk in the Meadows in Nottingham that's from one until three today if you want to go there. One till three as well the Special Needs Support Group are meeting at Ilkeston Health Centre and they offer mutual support and understanding to those parents who have children with special needs. One fifteen till three fifteen the Blidworth Wow Group are meeting in the Blidworth Social and Welfare Centre to learn more about screen printing. A creche is provided and that costs fifty P ten bob. One thirty until three thirty a friendly ballroom and sequence tea dance with refreshments is on and the I C C on Mansfield Road in Nottingham the International Community Centre and that's half one till half three. Half one until three forty five sequence dancing on at St John's Church Hall on Greylands Road at Bilborough the cost is seventy five pence there including a cup of tea and bickies too. One forty five the Keep Fit Association and got ladies keep fit to music at Attenborough Village Hall. Six till seven this evening the youth and junior group of the Beeston Red Cross are meeting at a hundred and fifty six High Road in Beeston that's the Red Cross Centre at six. Seven o'clock an evening of entertainment with clairvoyant medium Brian Gibson is on at the Scout's Headquarters on Lovers Lane at Newark tickets are two fifty there seven until nine. A ten week preparation course on to the Open University programme leading to the diploma in Health and Social Welfare starts. This is at Clarendon College at seven and that's on Pallam Avenue just off Mansfield Road in Nottingham er contact the college for more information that starts at seven tonight. Seven thirty a tour of the Broadmarsh Caves leads from the Broadmarsh Centre to book a place on the tour call Nottingham four eight three five O four four eight three five O four. Half seven the Hare and Hounds at Warsop and District Camera Club they're meeting at the Hare and Hounds pub in Warsop and tonight they have a competition Slides in Action and seven thirty Slimmers Clubs U K are meeting at the Age Concern Centre Street in Beeston and seven thirty as well until eight thirty a mixed ability aerobics class is on in the gymnasium of Rainworth Recreation Centre that's one fifty there and Joe Walker Zydeco Band direct from Louisiana are appearing at the Old Vic on Fletchergate at Nottingham tonight at half seven six pounds the tickets there four pounds concessions and they're available on the door. Anything you're up to let us know it's What's On B B C Radio Nottingham P O Box two two two in Nottingham Nottingham N G one three H Z to write to er give us a couple of weeks' notice if you can. You tell us and we'll tell Nottinghamshire for free so that's What's On B B C Radio Nottingham Box two two two in Nottingham Nottingham N G one three H Z to write to and don't forget tonight as well er if you want to come out and see us we're doing Drinking Partners our pub quiz er we're in the Star Inn on Middle Street in Beeston and the evening there starts at eight o'clock. Albert Hammond that is and er A Free Electric Band it's Radio Nottingham it's a quarter to one and er Action Line Action Line time now and er in a film Thelma and Louise that's starter of the trend for stronger independent women if er you fancy a lift but want something a little less drastic then our Louise from the Action Line team is here today with something to tickle your fancy I'm scared now I hope you're not suggesting that er women take to their cars and mow down any unsuspecting male that gets in their way . Now would I Geoff do you think I really would do you then. Well I would hope not actually that's that's a relief so er so so tell us what we're talking about today. Well I'm going to suggest going back to education. Returning to learning is not easy for everyone especially if you've had time out to bring up your kids. You may need a lot of confidence a lot of support and you might even need some help looking after your children if they're quite young. Well if you live in Snainton towns then I've got details of an organization that can help out with all those things and help you get back onto the learning ladder and maybe into a job. All right then tell us who they are and what they do. Okay well there's something we talk about a lot on the Action Line they're called Fast Forward and they're a training agency. They run courses especially for people who might find it difficult to do a course at their local college because of things like language difficulties and the fact that you might have children to look after. David is an education and training development worker for Fast Forward. Here he is to explain what Fast Forward do and why they're needed. There are a lot of barriers that exist between people and training some of them could be things like they don't have access to child care it could be they lack confidence so we go for support and we can offer training which is local we can offer language support. Basically we we try to break down any barriers that might exist between local people and the training opportunities that do exist. That was David who works for Fast Forward. It sounds really good because as David said you choose the course and they'll help you out with all the practical things like child care and travel expenses. What about the the actual courses though what kind of courses can you do? Well they've got er links with six colleges so they can offer you more or less anything from management to catering to horticulture. They've got erm an adult literacy course if you want to brush up on your reading and your writing they've got computer courses they've got a course in sound engineering and a works skills for women course which is what Sarah did. Well it involved a lot of things a bit of everything. Typing and word processing everything really. It was very good very very good for women that have been home for a long time and want to get their confidence back. At the end you know what you want and you get your child care and your travel care. I go to college now I'm doing my G C S Es and I'm enjoying them very much and I'm glad I went onto that course first. That was Sarah who did the Works Skills for Women Course at Fast Forward and that's now helped her to get on to some G C S E courses at college. Can anyone go along to Fast Forward then is it open to all comers. Yep erm well anyone can go along but you do have to live in Snainton or St Annes. You don't need any qualifications or anything like that. If this is you and you'd like to get back into education and get on a course why not go along to Fast Forward. They can help you with your training needs your child care and your travel and they can also provide the support you need if you're not confident about going back to learning. Here's Sarah again. I didn't want to stay at home I wanted to get back into education and I didn't know how to the easiest way I suppose. It was so scary coming you know all them years staying at home you lose all your confidence and it's a very very good way and I recommend all women to do that who are like me children and have been home that long. My family was very very supportive my mum was very happy that I was doing something for myself later on in my life it will help me very much and my husband was very very good. That was Sarah talking about her course at Fast Forward. Now if this sounds like it could be the kind of course you need call Action Line and they'll put you in touch with the people at Fast Forward and once you've got the training and the qualifications the next thing is the application form isn't it and you've got details as well today of someone who can help with that haven't you? That's right trying to find work these days can be demanding and extremely frustrating so you want to make sure that you give yourself the best chance of getting a job and one way to help is to do a good application form and know how to handle yourself in an interview. Well there's an organization in Radford who can help out with both of these things they're called A T O Training and they can tell you all you need to know about things like application forms and interview techniques as well as advice about further education and wan t what to do if you want to start your own business. Now Fast Forward was for everyone wasn't it, this one isn't? No it isn't. First of all you have to be unemployed and you have to be black or Asian. Now it's especially for people who are black or Asian because a lot of the time they miss out on the opportunities that are available to a lot of other people because of things like language barriers and although you might think it's unfair it's not actually illegal. The Race Relations Act says that you can do this you can have courses especially for black or Asian people so as I said you have to be unemployed you have to be black or Asian and you have to live in either Radford Hyson Green St Annes Lenton or Snainton. I'll just say those again it's Radford Hyson Green St Annes Lenton or Snainton. If this is you and you'd like some help or advice about interviews and application forms then call us on Nottingham four double one two double two and we'll put in touch with A T O Training and if this isn't you if you're not black or Asian and you would like some help then you can call us as well and we'll try and find something for you. All right four double one two double two to call Radio Nottingham's Action Line if you want to know any more about Fast Forward and the courses available there and how you can get on them or if you want to know about A T O Training as well four double one two double two and try and call Action Line before four o'clock this afternoon if you can. Er what's happening tomorrow then? Well Carolyn's here tomorrow Geoff to show that age is just a state of mind. That's tomorrow but All right. Don't forget our bonfire list. If you want to know where your nearest display is then you can call us now on Nottingham four double one two double two. If you're stuck for somewhere to take the kids on firework night and you want to know the one that's nearest to you Action Line have got a great big long list you've got piles haven't you? Piles and piles. They've got piles over there er four double one two double two to call Action Line and er try and call before four o'clock this afternoon if you can for the er information about the firework displays that are near to you for more details about Fast Forward and details about A T O Training as well Nottingham four double one two double two for Radio Nottingham's Action Line call before four. Billy Joel and er the River of Dreams it's Radio Nottingham six minutes to one o'clock now Kids' County for today these have been the clues, It's cheap it's quite big and you can see a pub and you can see the Victoria Baths. Erm the Castle and Aldi Supermarket guess so far Cecil's on from Plumtree hello. Hello there Geoffrey. How are you? Oh I'm very well thank you and you . Marvellous. Good man. Absolutely marvellous. Er what do you think about this erm this leaf stem sculpture that all the fuss is about you know the one that's down by er Marks and Spencers? Well I I mean I actually the the leaf sculpture itself I I don't really think a lot of it. Don't you? Not really no I What about the trees? What about the trees that are all around it? Oh the trees should remain. Cos they want to pull the trees up as well. Well I can't understand anyone want to pull trees down I mean I've got a tree in the in my garden it's about seventy feet high. I know it's a bit dangerous but I wouldn't cut it down. Yeah I mean I think I think they'll put some more there afterwards but Yes but you know I mean a tr a tree takes a long time to mature doesn't it? Yeah. You know and I mean it seems such a shame to cut it I mean they're living things aren't they? You'd have er there's somebody on yesterday who said that thinks it should er it should be against the law to cut a tree down. Well of course there is there is such a thing as a preservation order isn't there ? Yeah yeah. So I mean you stick those on them and er and er they won't be able to cut them down. Well we'll see what we say anyway we've got er we've got a couple of the Councillors on erm after one o'clock today Councillor Stuart Argyle and we've got David Poole on as well Oh right to give us both sides of the argument so we'll see what they have to say and er invite people's calls as well see what they think about it. it would be very interesting to hear what they've got to say I mean especially someone who wants to cut them down I can't understand anyone wanting to cut trees down unless they're dangerous. Yeah tree van You know I mean Tree vandalism it's called eh? Well it is I mean trees give off oxygen anyway don't they? Mm yeah. You know and they soak up carbon dioxide so it's good for the environment. Yeah. Yeah why anyone wants to cut them I don't know. Yeah well we'll see what they say. Yeah it will be very interesting yes very interesting . We'll see what they say see what they say afterwards. Because people are getting rather agitated about it you know. yeah. Erm anyway the Kids' County what are we talking about? Well I I thought after your first two clues it was Green's Windmill. Oh. Oh. Oh Cecil no. Oh oh dear You passed it. Oh what a shame. Never mind have a go have a go again soon. I will. Tarrah. Tarrah. Bye bye. Er Hilda's on from Southwell Southwell . Hi Southwell. Are you all right? Yes I'm fine. I could tell you were going to be a Southwell one. Oh really? Southwell For goodness sake Southwell You didn't say it correctly. Southwell erm what you up to today Hilda. Well I've been making Christmas cake this morning so I feel quite er happy with myself. Oh I see. Slosh a bit in the cake and slosh a bit in your throat . That's right. Is it one for you and one for me? Almost yes. How much have you put in? Er four tablespoons in the cake. Have you and how much have you put in you? Well I licked the spoon. Did you? . And you licked it again and you filled it up and you licked it again. No no. Are you going to keep feeding it up until Christmas? Yes every week it has to be fed. Do you how much do put in when you give it a feed? Well you prick it all over with your a knitting needle or something Mhm. and then put about two tablespoons on each time and stand back. Well you'll have a happy Christmas won't you? Mm. Kids' County what are they talking about? Snainton Market. Yes. Ooh. Yes. Hooray it took so long to get that sorted as well . Yes I know cos you did have it on a few weeks ago. Did we? The same thing. No. Mm. No. My daughter's been trying to get on for ages. Has she? Yeah but you ignored her last week. Oh I would never do that. I think you were sick of the kids. Oh kids. . Grrr never mind they've all gone back to school haven't they? Yes it's wonderful. Thank the Lord there is a God. You can have erm loads off the stuff off the conveyor belt for you for today you can have er a video loads of C Ds some sweets and toffees and things erm some crates of moist toilet tissue. Wonderful. Cos they sent me loads of that and er I'll sort you out with a T shirt as well all right? Yes find super thanks Geoff. Okey-dokey well erm hang on the line and er we'll get you all sorted. Best do another one best do er Kids' County number two for today same as before Nottinghamshire's kids talking about Nottinghamshire's people and places and things I need to know where they're describing remember whatever the answer is it's always somewhere around Nottinghamshire always somewhere in the county three four three four three four to ring then for er Kids' County number two for today here's the clues, It's got barbed wire around it it's made of wood it's long. There it's got barbed wire around it it's made of wood and it's long where are they talking about what are they talking about somewhere around Nottinghamshire Nottingham three four three four three four to call from this lot of clues, It's got barbed wire around it it's made of wood it's long. There what are they on about? I tell you what you can get for it you can have erm a make-up bag with a string of pearls in they're not real one you can have er more of that moist erm tissue stuff er a bag with sweetener things in it there's er a video about a Biggin Air Show and loads of marshmallows too for Kids' County number two here's the clues, It's got barbed wire around it its made of wood it's long. Nottingham three four three four three four to ring and er call as well and tell me what you think about that leaf statue and the trees round there cos we've got the councillors on talking about that after er one o'clock today. A quick look at the travel then from Annie Smith. On the parking front in the centre of Nottingham you'll find a space at St James Street and the Arndale Centre car park but Victoria Centre's got a few minutes wait at the York Street entrance and Trinity Square still very busy next update in ten minutes time. And we'll do the whole lot altogether the er traffic and the trains and planes in full every day on the county's favourite at ten past one. Good afternoon from Nottinghamshire's favourite radio station. At one o'clock it's the headlines this lunchtime it's announced that Calverton Colliery's to close before the end of the month. The police appeal for the public's help in identifying the voice of a girl who rung a Nottinghamshire hospital claiming she'd had a baby and a member of staff is suspended from a centre for the handicapped in Nottinghamshire pending an internal investigation. They're the headlines today the details from Alison Ford. Calverton Colliery is to close in just over two weeks' time. The closure has been confirmed twenty four hours after British Coal announced the pit was to go into the review procedure and revealed that it's lost more than six million pounds in the last six months. Union leaders at the pit say they'll challenge the closure by taking legal action. Sarah Sturdy reports. British Coal's Midlands Group Director John Longdon has recommended that Calverton should cease production by November the nineteenth. He says continuing heavy losses and falling markets have given him no option but to propose that the six hundred and forty man pit should close. The Union Leaders he met today at Calverton Miners Welfare say they'll challenge the closure through the pit review procedure. But even if that lasts the full nine months British Coal has the final say on whether the pit should be shut down. Nottinghamshire police have released a recording of a girl they believed called the Kingsmill Hospital at Sutton in Ashfield claiming she'd had a baby. They think it's the same teenager who's made at least a dozen calls to the police and a hospital in Lincolnshire since reporting the birth at the weekend. This report from Nigel Bell. I was the one that killed it and I didn't. He was the one that got me pregnant. This is the voice of the girl that sometimes uses the name Cindy and sometimes Linda. She says she's fourteen and that the father of the child is her own dad. Acting Detective Superintendent Mick Cox says they realize the girl could be in danger but believe it's necessary to broadcast the recording. This has been talked through but with both the Social Services and the the hospital and er we decided to take that chance. They've checked schools and housing estates in the Mansfield area but say they've no leads. Half a dozen officers are investigating the case but police forces across the East Midlands are on standby. Mick Cox is urging anyone who recognizes this voice to contact the police. There's a free phone number O eight hundred six two six nine nine nine. Every time I've run away from home and then every time you lot have took me back home and then I end up getting pregnant. At the James Bolger murder trial in Preston the jury has been told how two the two eleven year old defendants tormented an elderly woman shortly before they allegedly abducted James Bolger. They've denied abduction and murdering James also attempting to abduct another child. Kevin Bucket reports. The court has been today hearing evidence from witnesses building up a picture of what the who defendants were doing in the hours before the alleged abduction of James Bolger. A qualified nurse Pamela Armstrong said that she and two other woman had been running a stall in the Bootle Strand shopping centre. At one point an elderly woman was looking at the display when the two defendants starting tormenting her. Miss Armstrong said the defendants were in some way prodding the woman from behind she swung round as if to hit the children with her bag and they ran off. Another witness Mrs Angela Higgins said she saw the defendants shouting and behaving stupidly. She said one of them spoke to her own four year old child. It's alleged that later in the day the defendants abducted James Bolger took him to a railway embankment and murdered him. The case is continuing. A member of staff has been suspended from a centre for the handicapped in Nottinghamshire pending an internal investigation. The probe by the County Council at Redoaks Training Centre in Rainworth follows a police investigation at Stone Cross Lane Residential Unit in Mansfield. Rob Tomlinson reports. Nottinghamshire County Council won't confirm what the latest allegations are about but it's been reported that they centre on fraud and sexual harassment at Redoaks. An inquiry is being conducted internally at the council run centre and police have not been called in. However two weeks ago they were called in to investigate claims of physical abuse at Stone Cross Lane Residential Unit in Mansfield a warden run complex for mentally handicapped adults. Detectives were alerted by Central Nottinghamshire Health Care Trust and it's understood their inquiries will take some time. They say there is no link between that investigation and the County Council's probe into allegations at Redoaks. You're listening to B B C Radio Nottingham news it's coming up to five past one. A Nottingham car salesman who went with two prostitutes aged fourteen and fifteen has been jailed for three years. Forty seven year old John House of Fairwell Drive in Bulwell denied having unlawful sexual intercourse with the girls but was found guilty at Nottingham Crown Court. Chris Throup reports. The jury at the trial heard that House's sessions with the two girls were arranged by nineteen year old Natalie Meadows who introduced them to prostitution. He drove them to fields in the Derbyshire countryside where the offences took place. House was arrested after the mother of the fifteen year old took down his car registration number. The car was traced to dealers in Nottingham where he'd worked for nine years. At Lincoln Crown Court today Judge Richard Hutchinson who'd adjourned the case for reports sentenced him to two consecutive eighteen month prison terms. Meadows of Hill Road in Baysford was found guilty of two charges of controlling prostitutes and two of aiding unlawful sex. She'll be sentenced at a later date. A forty six year old Nottingham Museum assistant has been remanded in custody charged with the murder of her eighty year old mother over eighteen months ago. Patricia Gregg of Mews in the Meadows had surrendered herself to police yesterday morning before appearing before City Magistrates today. This report from Paula Boystones. Beatrice Gregg was found dead at her home in Close in March last year. Today a bail application was refused and Miss Gregg was remanded in custody for seven days. Last year an inquest was told how a milkman became suspicious when he noticed milk had not been taken in from the doorstep of the house. A post-mortem examination at the time showed she'd been hit on the head with a blunt instrument. Miss Gregg told detectives her mother had been waiting for the handyman to call at the time of her death. The man was never traced. After today's hearing Miss Gregg's solicitor Donald Worsley said he intended to make a bail application to a Judge in Chambers and if this failed he would then go to the High Court. A hundred and thirty three Manchester United fans are appearing in court in Istanbul after trouble at a hotel. Thirty one others were held but escaped from custody. The British Consulate says some of the United supporters are likely to be charged and all of them will be held until after this evenings game against the Turkish champions . One Manchester United fan insisted he'd seen very few disturbances. Never been in trouble at all like and and I've certainly not seen any trouble. I've been out on the on the streets and the roads and we've had a few beers and I've not seen any trouble but the first I've heard of trouble was was this morning after breakfast in a nearby hotel and and by by the trouble that's been caused I don't know the details of it but I believe it's been quite intense really. British and Irish Ministers have begun talks in Belfast on the political future of Northern Ireland. Before going into the meeting the Irish team spoke of a good deal of hope for peace and the Northern Ireland Secretary Sir Patrick Mayhew said all options remained open. Recorded crime in England and Wales rose by three point eight per cent in the year to June. Home Office figures put the total of offences at a record five point seven million but the rate of increase showed a sharp drop on the two previous years. John Silverman reports. On the face of it the trend is encouraging. Recorded crime fell in eight police force areas the rate of increase in violent crime was significantly lower than the previous year and the rise in reported thefts was the smallest for four years. But within the statistics there are signs that the mobility of criminals is inflicting more crimes on rural areas than the cities and the amount of vehicle crime continues to cause concern. The Home Office Minister David Maclean said that despite some encouraging signs the Government would not become complacent on crime. That's the news now and a look at the lunchtime sport here's John Shaw. Nottingham Forest are likely to stick with the same team that beats Notts County for tonight's match against Millwall at the City ground the London club are currently eleventh in the First Division Forest will go above them if the Reds win. Notts County striker Rob Matthews returns for the Magpies Reserves against Wolves at Meadow Lane tonight Robbie Turner will also play. Kick-off is at seven o'clock. Mansfield Town Caretaker Manager Bill Bearden has given his whole squad the day off to try to stop the spread of the flu virus. It hit it hit Ian Stringfellow last week and caused Nicky Platten now to pull out at the last minute last night. Manchester United have selection problems for this afternoons European Cup Tie against the Turkish side . Gary Pallister is already ruled out and there's a doubt concerning Brian Robson who has a sinus infection. If Robson doesn't play then Roy Keen will take his place. And an announcement will be made later today about the venue for the World Cup qualifier between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland which is scheduled for Belfast on November the seventeenth. The match may have to be moved because of the recent violence in the province. And the main points of the news again this lunchtime. A member of staff has been suspended from a centre for the handicapped in Nottinghamshire pending an internal investigation. Nottinghamshire police have released a recording of a girl they believe called the Kingsmill Hospital at Sutton in Ashfield claiming she'd had a baby and Calverton Colliery is to close in just over two weeks' time. The announcement was confirmed twenty four hours after British Coal said the pit was to go into the review procedure. Union leaders there say they'll challenge the procedure by taking legal action. Ten past one traffic and trains and planes at lunchtime. On the trains British Rail say no problems all doing find East Midlands Airport all okay as well let's listen for a space now with Annie Smith. Good news if you're making you way to park at the Walken Street car park in the centre of Mansfield the attendant tells me they've got plenty of space. On the park and ride sites the Forest is busy but I'm told there's parking room still available and there's room on the Queens Drive site and ample space at the Racecourse just follow the yellow signs for that particular site. If you want to park in Nottingham city centre there's space at the Arndale Centre car park that's at the bottom of Maid Marion Way or you could even made your way to the Stoney Street car park you'll find that in the Leys Market. Trinity Square still proving to be very busy so expect a few minutes wait if you want to get yourself parked in there and have a couple of minutes wait if you want to get into the Victoria Centre that's at the York Street entrance. Finally taking a look at traffic in and around Nottingham's roads the vehicles I can see are moving steadily. Annie Smith Radio Nottingham Travel. On the motorways no problems at the moment as far as we know. The A Six O Nine Trowell Road there's resurfacing taking place there between Arlston Drive and Burnwood Drive so watch it. On the A One near to Markham Moor north bound lane closures expected now until five o'clock tomorrow. On the A Six Twenty there's railway bridge work taking place between and Welham extra lights there. And problems still in Baysford cos of the closure of David Lane and Southwick Street diversions in operation there long delays expected. At Collington Chapel Lane is closed until Friday cos they're putting a new sewer in there and traffic's being diverted there along Main Street and at Totton there's roadworks on Nottingham Road at the junction with Attenborough Lane delays likely there especially at busy times that'll do us for now we'll update the traffic for you again in half an hours time. It's Radio Nottingham F M one O three point eight and ninety five point five Nottinghamshire's favourite station with the weather forecast for the rest of the afternoon. Staying cloudy in most places although a few bright intervals at possible and apart from the odd chance of a light shower it should stay dry milder than of late top temperature eleven celsius fifty two fahrenheit mist and patchy fog will form tonight and drizzle is likely in places too the overnight low eight celsius forty six fahrenheit mist and fog clearing slowly tomorrow a dull start it should brighten up later on though sunny intervals developing the high tomorrow thirteen degrees. The Chairman of the Board and er You've Got Me Dangling on a String it's radio Nottingham it's Geoff Owen here till two this afternoon. Dennis McCarthy on Afternoon Special from two till half four Alan Clifford at tea time in for John Simons from half four until seven o'clock at tea time later. Radio Nottingham sport on from seven and then John Tanton from ten until midnight to come on the county's favourite. Er Kids' County on to our second one for today Rita's on from Mansfield hello Rita. Hello. How are you? All right. Good oh and what's happening to you then today? Well we're just watching Coronation Street she asked me to turn it off. She's what? Says stop watching Coronation Street and listen to Radio Nottingham. What you can do both at the same time can you? Yes. Yes well of course you can Rita you know have two things there together it's okay it's fine. Er the clues for our second Kids' County for today are these ones, It's got barbed wire round it it's made of wood it's long. There it has barbed wire around it it's made of wood and it's long Rita. Is it Major Oak? Major Oak no no no. I didn't think it would be. No it could have been though couldn't it? Well you can go back and watch that thing now can't you? Well I'll watch for come back. Aye? coming back or whatever her name is. Bye Rita Bye. Bye bye. Katherine is on from Chilwell hello Katherine. Hello. Hello how are you? Fine thank you. And what end of Chilwell are you at? Erm we're on the traffic lights where all the work is Lane. Oh are you down there is it hell? Oh terrible awful . Is it he every morning it's hell . Every morning you can't get the car in What's it like now? Just the same all the workmen are there can't cross the road Can't you? Can't hear no it terrible. Oh and can you hear it rumbling all the time? Oh yes the jack hammering. Wobbling about? Yes. There and you're si and you're sitting there on your sofa and you get this strange rumbling That's right near the window yes and all the dust is coming in we've got to put up with it till Christmas. Until when? Till about Christmas. Ah. December it's not going to finish till December. But you'll be able to get all the tinsel out won't you when it goes. Yes. What do you think about this statue and all these trees we've been talking about the ones around by Marks and Spencers yes ? Well I was thinking maybe we could bring it to Beeston with the other one. Do you think so what Match up one each end. I like that one that's in Beeston of the old man sitting on the bench there . Oh that's nice but people keep knocking little bits off it. Yeah. Knocked his nose and knocked his foot. It's a bit fragile isn't it I suppose . Yes it's a shame. Little little extremities. That's right. So you'll have it in Beeston will you Katherine ? Yes Maybe you could present it to those workmen. You know when they've when they've finished. That's a good idea. You could give it to them couldn't you ? They could have a little roundabout they're going to have there. It's a little pressie. What about the trees though do you think they should take the trees down? No I don't think they should no I think they've been there quite a while it's a shame to. Cos they're quite old trees those aren't they ? Yes yes they should leave them really. They want to put up some of these little spindly poky trees. Oh no. You know the ones that that pop up everywhere. No they should leave those there really they look You think so They look quite nice. All right then well I'll get the I'll get the two councillors on in a minute. Okay. And we'll see what they have to say and if you feel so moved you can ring back and shout at them Katherine. Yes thank you. All right er Kids' County here's the clues these ones, It's got barbed wire round it it's made of wood it's long. There it's got barbed wire round it it's made of wood and it's long. I was going to say Major Oak. Oh Katherine. I know. That's what Rita just said can't you think of anything else ? I can't think of anything else either no. You nana. My husband really thought it would be Major Oak. Are these workmen outside of your house are they the ones with the er with the trousers hanging half way down their bum? Oh yeah there's about twelve of them yeah when they bend down their trousers fall down . They're all that sort of are they. Well er off to have a look at some workmen's bums out the window and have a nice afternoon Katherine. Okay thank you bye . Tarrah bye bye. Er Kids' County I'll give you some more clues these might help, It's got tunnels it's metal round the edge it's green. There it's got tunnels and it's metal around the edge and it's green three four three four three four to ring for a bash at Kids' County and er we know it's not the Major Oak cos that's what they've both guessed so far all right. Here's the clues then all together then this lot, It's got barbed wire round it it's made of wood it's long it's got tunnels it's metal round the edge it's green. There somewhere around Nottinghamshire something around Nottinghamshire what are they describing there three four three four three four to call for a bash at Kids' County don't leave it too long before you call and er if you want to talk to the councillors about the leaf stem and trees you can call as well. There Art Garfunkel that is and I Believe When I Fall in Love it'll be Forever. It's Radio Nottingham it's one twenty two erm Muriel Poole and erm what's this or twin Alan from the Stockhill Estate happy birthday have fun lots of love to you from Christine and from Derek and from Karl as well so have a lovely day. Er David Wilson from Booton happy birthday love from Susan and Andrew and Amanda and from Adam as well. A budgie lost lost from the Lenton area yesterday tea time at six o'clock from Sherwin Road it's green and it's called Freddie seven nine one six five six to ring seven nine one six five six if you can help there. Er a dog lost from Bulwell on Sunday it's long haired it's a Jack Russell and it's white and black it's female no collar to call if you can help here. Er cat lost from Newthorpe Common yesterday it's black and white called Tasha and it's female one year old . A letter erm from New Baysford it says Two weeks ago my car was nicked in Illkeston in the Pimlico car park between the hours of two and five whilst shopping. Could you please announce this on your show. Well all right then it's er a red Escort Laser with blue graphics and it's bright rosso red in colour and it's C and there's some slight rust on the driver's from wing and there's red paint on the exhaust and it's grey inside. If you've seen it somewhere then can you call a reward of twenty five pounds offered to the person who can advise where the car is payment will be upon receipt of retrieving the vehicle. It's come from Miss Dawn who wants her car back it's a red Escort Laser it's bright rosso red and it's got a bit of rust on the driver's front wing and red paint on the exhaust. If er someone's taken it for a ride and dumped it near you then can you call Nottingham and it's Dawn who wants her car back anything I can do you for three four three four three four is the number to ring. If you want to shout about the leaf stem and the trees then call now. Talking to two of the Nottingham councillors who are rather agitated about it all and talk to you as well give us a ring. Afternoon Special this afternoon we have a couple of interesting guests to meet George Hamilton the fourth will be with us he's involved in the tribute to Patsie Clyne Show and Esther Rantzen who's here for the Child Line campaign. Funny Man is the competition and we have a new pre-release video as a prize and there's a phone-in and you can take part and have a chat on the air Afternoon Special this afternoon just after the two o'clock news. Forest are at home tonight it's Millwall who try and stop Stammon and we of course will be there too. Tommy Cooper talking at length about when he ruled at the Den and we'll be talking to about his Norwegian career and his arrival at the City ground. And apart from the Bohemian Rhapsody news of the rest of the European football tonight and we have the double attacking spearhead of Colin Fray and Martin Fisher at the City ground and you listening to the classiest football cover on Radio Nottingham from five past seven. Now er over the last few days we've been er talking quite a lot about er that statue you know the one that's down by er down by Marks and Spencers that's the best way to describe where it is the leaf stand the er the one that looks like a tulip and water dribbles down the side of it. Well they want to move it they want to develop the area and er now they're talking as well about taking the trees out from around there too which is really getting up people's noses it would seem. Councillor David Poole is on hello. Hello. Thanks for coming on David now you've hated this thing ever since it's gone up haven't you? Yes yes er and and the price it cost the er tax payers and rate payers of Nottingham in the first place to put it there yes. tell us what's going to happen to the area then David. Well it's going to be revamped as er as you probably know that part of the City is being slowly revamped er and this is one which is going to be done in about the middle of next year. Er it's going to have er a circular area with benches and for shoppers can relax and everything but er unfortunately as you say there's going to be three mature trees in the centre of St Peters Square will be removed as part of the opening up of the area. It seems that this is what's annoying people the most though Mm yes. lots of people really couldn't give a stuff about the the statue there. We've had a few people coming on and saying they want it to stay there or they want to leave it there but it's the trees that's really annoying people. Why have they got to go David? Well that's the question I've been asking in committees er because I'm I brought this up when they did nicely when they took all the trees away from down er Long Row on the High Street. There was a lovely tree outside old Boots shop there they took all them away and put these little ones down the middle and I also brought it up when they did Weekday Cross they took the trees which had only been there a few years they took them all down and put put some others up some little twiggly things you know. Er I did ask the question as well what what's going to happen to these trees or what happens to these trees when the City Council removes them and I've never got an answer yet and I'm going to keep asking somebody some day will give me an answer. I mean are the just destroyed or are they removed and reused again we don't know. All right we've got er Councillor Stuart Argyle in here as well Stuart good afternoon. Er hello Geoff. Hello erm so tell us what your stance on all of this is you're furious about the trees aren't you? Well I'm concerned Geoff as a Ward Councillor I read about this in the paper that the Environment Committee which David is on er agreed to this scheme which is I'm all for having squares in the city centre and places for people to sit and enjoy and I'm ambivalent about the leaf stem. I understand it's been offered several homes so that would be nice. But I am concerned for the three trees that David has just mentioned being removed. I need to know that it's necessary to remove all those trees I've been told all sorts of things like they're in pots and they'll become pot bound they're growing outwards they might fall down they might fracture mains they block off the er view of the church well I think they're a nice asset in the city centre. This is a city without a lot of parks in its centre only the Castle and er not a lot of trees not mature trees so er er I need to know that it's necessary to move these trees. All right David do you still think it's necessary to move them? Er Stuart Argyle on I also say that they are removing one tree outside the former Horse and Groom public house as well. I didn't know that. They are er Stuart but they replace replacing by eleven new trees to be planted eight among the seating area on Albert Street and three on erm the footway outside the Horse and Groom. But are those trees those that the little er the little spindly ones what do they call them engineers trees don't they because they don't take much looking after . Yes we were told they're going to be trees like that because they've had a lot of trouble with pigeons roosting in the erm the mature trees and it's impossible for people to sit on the benches underneath cos of er pigeon mess. Well well if coming on Yeah do Stuart pigeons. The pigeons are of cause er er er a cause of debate in the city centre some people like pigeons some don't some say there are far too many pigeons. And it's a bit of a nonsense to say that pigeons perch in trees you may see an odd pigeon sort of settle in a tree but not for long. Pigeons are derived from the Rock Dove and which nested and perched in cliff side and buildings are the nearest thing so I the pigeons aren't really an argument and you do if you want proper birds in the city centre such as thrushes and blackbirds and even sparrows you need real trees to encourage them and the these trees are fairly mature and helpful. If you want to come in on any of this three four three four three four you can call now. Mary's on from Baysford hello Mary. Hello Geoff. What have you got to say then you want to talk to David Poole. Yes I do well firstly I do believe the statue should go. Why? Erm I just don't like it I think it's horrible. Mhm is is that the same for everything else around the city that you don't like you're quite happy to just knock it down would you and take it away somewhere else ? No just that one. Just the statue okay what about the trees around there ? The trees we should fight like mad to save them. Mhm cos they've been there for ages haven't they Mary don't you think? Yeah and we need more green in the city not less. And do and do you think erm do you think it's justified to take the trees down because you're going to put up some some new little ones in their place ? No definitely not. And do you care if the pigeons sit in the trees? No. No all right. They don't sit in trees anyway. No tell me what er tell me what you want to say to Councillor Poole? The other thing is it's a question to Councillor Poole I mean why should the people of Nottingham give any credibility to anything said by someone who is quoted in the Daily Sport of all newspapers as saying and I quote, Surely the County Council could erect something more in keeping with the City's heritage like a little old lady in a shawl. Now as far as I'm concerned and many people this remark is ageist and sexist and really what has it got to do with Nottingham heritage? All right David is that what I've no just a Okay carry on Albert Ball or William Booth or if he really wants a statue of a lady why not Maid Marian in a lace shawl? All right then David Poole did you say that really? I said that we ought to er somebody asked me er from one of the national papers which ought to be put in place there and I did suggest that we ought to have a statue like just been mentioned to somebody from Beeston they've got a nice man on a bench there. I suggested putting an old lady sitting on a bench with a lace shawl erm er sculpture of so that it represents er Nottingham lace and etcetera and I said it would look more attractive and catch people's eye than what's there at the present. So it was it was the lace that you wanted emphasizing rather than a Yes little old lady on a bench? That's it. Oh I see Mary is that any better. Er no. Oh no okay. No certainly not it's not I mean a little old lady yes the lace has something to do with Nottingham Nottingham's heritage we all know that. A little old lady has not. Maid Marian has in lace. So perhaps perhaps Maid Marian with some lace on? Certainly. I knew I knew you'd be happy. Well Mary we'll wait and see thanks for calling on. Er Dorothy's on from Carlton hello Dorothy. Hello. Hello. What have you got to say about it all Dorothy? Well firstly I don't like the tree the leaf and I honestly think that it should be place as a permanent position in the foyer of County Hall as a permanent reminder to all councillors on the waste of public tax payers' money. Wouldn't it be a greater waste of money though now having got the thing there though to shift it out the way completely Dorothy? Well it's better than going in the river like you suggested yesterday where it's hidden and forgotten permanent reminder . Well I'll tell you tell you who suggested that yesterday now let me have a look it was one of the councillors wasn't it said lob it in the bottom of the arboretum lake it was er Conservative Councillor Charles Clarke who said the only suitable place for that daft leaf is in the middle of the arboretum lake. But he says again that we shouldn't move the trees simply for something which is meant to fit in nature doesn't always fit in. What do you think Dorothy should the trees go as well? I think life of trees is very precious and should remain precious. So so we keep the trees there? We keep the trees erm they're on about the trees are mature well my suggestion is there's a lot of councillors that are very mature and really they could do far better getting eleven spindly new younger councillors to make these decisions on behalf of all the public tax payers in Nottingham. So er you'd like to lop the councillors as well would you? Well I think the public ought to have more interests in these things that are happening in Nottingham. Mm well we're inviting people to call Really important. people to call now three four three four three four if you want to come in on this. Erm Mrs Moody from Hucknall thinks that er that leaf stem thing ought to be off in a garden somewhere. Er Councillor Poole it seems that nobody wants to shift the trees. That's correct yes and I don't blame them and er if Stuart Argyle thinks the same way we'll we'll certainly er see what we can do about pressing for keeping these trees. I mean myself has mentioned it now in committee but er I was a lone voice you see that's the that's the trouble when you've got fifteen other members and and they don't seem to be bothered about trees. What should people do if if they they want to protest about it further David? Well they could address their letters to myself Councillor David Poole or Councillor Stuart Argyle to the Council House erm the suggestion you know er their the thoughts the thoughts on this what er they could er erm help us in our campaign and also about the leaf stem as well if they want to write to me at the Council House suggesting and I mean proper places to where it should go because that's really up to County Council but er at least if I had some suggestions we can pass them over to the County Council where where it could go. But Stuart you'd welcome that as well would you people to write to you? Yes certainly. A lady has just said one of your earlier callers has just said that Council are out of touch well we shouldn't be out of touch and that is this exercise you have two councillors on here from different parties showing a concern for the trees. I'm not so bothered about the leaf stem. What does interest me about the leaf stem she suggested it should be put in the foyer of County Hall well when Nottingham becomes a unitary stat unitary authority and County Hall is made into an hotel perhaps it would be a bit unfortunate for the visitors to have the leaf stem er when they book in. That's going to be er in the future perhaps or not but er the problem now is er is those trees. Let's get er a couple of more people's er opinions on Peter's on from West Bridgford hello Peter. Yeah hello good morning Geoff. You know we we've heard a lot about this leaf bud structure and what to replace it with but since this is Nottingham and this centre of lace why couldn't they put something there like a loom or something sculptured to look like a loom? My second point is the trees. Now I'm an ex-gardener I'm a horticulturist it take roughly about forty years for trees to reach maturity it doesn't say much for our planners if they plan to put those trees there and then now are gonna have them up again it sounds much like change for changes sake and that that it basically my comment. Why can't they plan for a longer term for those trees? You you you know as as a gardener then about these er these little trees that they'll be replaced with these little spindly ones Yes. can they grow as big can they grow to to look as attractive as these old maturer trees that are there now? No no er erm well er there is Prunus that's a plum I mean a cherry that grows up and various ones like that the only trouble is with these type of things they can be more of a nuisance than the trees that you do have now because those trees growing up those spindly ones as you put it erm some gardeners call them or whatever name they use I but the trouble is bits die in the centre of those and they tend to drop down and they can be in time more far more of a nuisance than the trees they've got now which seems to me quite suitable. Mm well thanks for your thoughts Peter echoing what everybody else has said and er thanks for coming on telling us about the new trees as well. Stuart that's the point isn't it that they're not going to look as good? Well you've only got to go onto Longrow Smithy Row and see those trees there they're like toy town trees. Peop they're like they're like umbrellas that need unfolding and people say oh they'll spread out and they'll develop foliage well there're similar sorts of trees on Castlegate and they've been there about three years they've done nothing in fact they're dying. And er you know there is this attitude that nature it has been said nature is untidy well nature by its very definition is untidy. But you know you see those tr trees outside St Peters Square they look good the church looks good framed behind them in the country they're trees country churches are surrounded by trees and they look better for it they frame buildings. Yeah it won't look so good if they they put those funny little trees up there. All right Barbara is on from Chilwell. Hi Barbara. Hello Geoff. What are your thoughts then? My thoughts the leaf stem should never have been there in the first place it was a waste of money. What do they do with it now then? Whatever they like bottom of the River Trent if you like but it would be very going off the subject and I've only got a minute or two to spare but what someone pointed out to me that terrible monstrosity outside the Theatre Royal subway and every time I pass I fume inwardly. I've been meaning to write to The Post letter page about it for several years. It's an insult to feminism and I'd like to know how much that cost out of the rates. All right yeah well let's erm le let's stick to talking about the leaf stem for now cos we don't want to go on er slagging off every bit of art that's around the city centre do we Barbara otherwise is it art over the Royal Centre we'd be here all day . That's not art it's horrible Geoff insult to You don't like that either. Insult to womanhood it's an ugly monstrosity. All right then well I've seen people come up and stop and stare aghast at it. Well er we'll leave that for another day now Barbara. Do you think do you think about the trees the trees should stay there or what? Yes I do yes. And what do you think about this idea of turning it into like a little piazza there for everyone to sit out on do you like that idea? Well yes anything like that especially as it should be the shopping area. Yeah. Yes. If you had if you had some seat there though do you think the seats would be nice under some trees? Of course yes I know it encourages the pigeons and they make a mess but anything to beautify the inner city. All right Barbara thanks for coming on . Thank you Geoff. We'll talk about the one by the Theatre another day and see what people think about that. Er Freda's on hello Freda. Oh I'm here again. Oh right what's up ? Now now then Geoff we don't go to Nottingham to look at trees we don't go to Nottingham to look at the countryside we go to see the shops and spend money. And that er leaf was absolutely diabolical. Mhm. Anybody can can spend other people's money and and as for that lady saying we want the young people on the Council good heavens the young ones would spend it quicker than the old ones . So do you think the trees aren't important then are you not bothered about them. I'm not bothered about them you've got tre you can go in the countryside and see that you've got trees at well a lot of us have got them outside our own houses. Do you not think that I mean the people who were saying keep them there they're saying it adds something to what's in the city centre do you not agree? I'm I'm not er well if they're going to er if they're going to lose their leaves like they are doing now people are slipping on them aren't they. Mm maybe the odd one or two will you know Freda Yes yes well leave the trees where they are but but that diabolical thing well art today I don't know what they think art is. You liked you like nice holes with flowers and vases on and things I like the I like the I like the old the old art we used to have in the olden days mind you I like everything that's old er that's why I like you Geoff cos you're old. Yeah well I'm catching you up Freda Er thanks for coming on. Well we're going to Nottingham to spend money. All right then Bye bye. Tarrah there I think I think we'd better leave it there otherwise we are going to be here all day. Er give a final word to David Poole. Yeah well on what people have said I I think that er there's a possibility that er if Stuart and myself get together with the officers concerned that we if these trees are pruned and trimmed as they they're saying they're over overgrown at the moment surely that would cut them down in size and if they're regular pruned every so many years they won't they won't be a nuisance I don't think in future years. All right then er a final word to Stuart as well. Er yeah thank you yeah the trees really do matter. I mean David's talking about the leaf stem I couldn't care less about the leaf stem I'm with most people I understand that Councillor Barry Jackson's offered to look after it in his garden cos he likes it and he's welcome to do that. But er Nottingham's er city that's proud of its nature it's not generally realized that there's about a hundred nature reserves in the City of Nottingham maintained by the city of the Notts Wild Life Trust and er this is great on the outskirts but in the city centre there's too little nature in it. There's only the castle grounds that's a park in the city centre you've got to pay a quid to go in there on Saturdays and Sundays and I think these trees really matter I am concerned and I'm going to ask questions about them and I will talk to David about it as well although the leaf stem he can keep himself. well we've got people on both sides of the political fence agreeing here for one. Erm if you want to er to make your voice heard about it then write them letters write letters into your councillors erm and er and let them know what you think or you can write them to me and I'll pass them on. I'll say thanks very much to Councillor Stuart Argyle for coming in our thanks as well to David Poole for joining us on the phone thanks David. Thanking you Thank you. I'll leave you for now it's Radio Nottingham it's seventeen minutes to two. I think all we can do after that is er have a Frank this is er Frank Sinatra and Brazil. There Frank Sinatra that is and er Brazil it's Radio Nottingham fourteen minutes to two bit late with everything today thanks for all your calls on that. Erm more calls than we could cope with in the end for and er see what happens to it and keep in touch write to your councillors and let them know what you think or write to me and I'll pass the letters on. June from Mansfield's on hello June. Hello. How are you? Fine thank you. Marvellous and what's been happening with you today? Erm I've been out shopping today getting wood to put a floor in the cellar. You what? Putting a floor into the make a pantry. In the cellar? Yes. So you can store all your wine down there is it? Or your beer and your booze. Yes yes that's it home-made wines and things. Oh are you is that what you're going to do? Yes. Have you started making them already or Oh yes been making it a long time. And how many bottles have you got then June? Oh we've still got them in the demijohns yet Have you? Yes. I often wonder about this er a demijohn would imply that's half a john wouldn't it? so can you can you get one that's twice as big that's called a john? I'm no yes I think you can actually. Can you? Yes yes you can get them . I've never heard of that before. No but you can get them big. You can get a john can you you can get a big john? Yes. I see oh er fireworks winner Mrs from Eastwood heard the firework noise just then so she's off to Alton Towers with the family to see the fireworks stop calling for that now. Tracey's on from Radford next hello Tracey. Hello. You all right? Yes fine thanks. Good we're doing family things today we had erm we had why these hard times are making the families pull closer together on earlier on and we're all er looking after each other a lot more so I want a thirty seconds worth of family things today for Loot at Lunchtime. Tell me about your family Tracey. Married got a husband got three children three boys Daniel Ben and Thomas. Mhm how old? Erm six and a half nearly three and nearly one. I can hear is that Thomas we can hear shouting? No that's Ben that's the one that's nearly three. Oh is it? Yes he's playing. Yeah where's the little one? In bed. In bed asleep? Yes. Just how you like them. That's right eldest one But you don't at school. You don't know what they're thinking about though do you? No. Thirty seconds worth of family things I'll put June on from Mansfield first cos June's out champ are you ready? Yes. Here we go. House home baby nappy naughty cot bed bath rattle crib brother sister aunty uncle mum dad grandpa stories boys girls hats coats shoes gloves smiles frowns tears joy meals wheels cards games Christmas Easter church love holidays chores outings cleaning carpet tables sofas chairs bedtime stories prayers books baking cooking pastry cakes bread sweets fireworks crackers birthday treats parties smi theatre flicks panto tricks magic shows Punch and Judy swim dance skip. Ah you got sixty two June Oh my goodness Oh my stars sixty two you got that's not a bad score that is it? Should be all right Tracey from Radford's going to try and knock the smile off you face aren't you Tracey? Yes. You've got sixty two to beat thirty seconds worth of things to do with families and your time starts now. Brother brother-in-law sister sister-in-law aunty uncle grandma granddad great grandma great granddad mother-in-law father-in-law niece nephews cousins children babies teenagers family car family house family outing family entertainment family birthdays weddings anniversaries Christmas Easter grandchildren mamas papas granddads dadas nan nanas children's toys children's parties children's clothes coat jumpers vest trousers socks shoes dress cardigan birthday parties toys cars rattles crisps family tree family car. Tracey? Yes. Your content was good but you were lacking pace I think forty eight you got so I want the weather forecast from you next all right? Oh. Hang on the line don't put the phone down and June from Mansfield sixty two gives you a list of prizes numbers between one and ten choose three of them. Erm one. Number one is some Turbaco Chilli Nods in tubes. One? Er yes. Er what what else have I have I had five? This is a new list today it's a brand spanking new one. Oh five. Number five is er a mug Radio Nottingham new style I've already got one. Have you well have another one get a set. Another one? Erm seven. Number seven loads and loads and loads and loads of this moist toilet tissue cos we're trying to get rid of it all so you've got the lot . Right. I'll talk to you tomorrow okay? Erm I'm not in tomorrow I'm in on Friday. Oh are you well you'll have to come back on Friday then and we'll find somebody else to take you on tomorrow. right oh Okay tarrah Right bye Bye bye. Hey why aren't you in tomorrow? I'm at er Chesterfield doing the er Oh of course charity market. Well that's a good enough excuse and good luck with it tomorrow. All right thank you. Bye bye. Bye. Loot at Lunchtime back tomorrow then ten to one quarter to oneish listen in then we'll give you the qualifying question. Gracious me it's ten to two now yakking on a lot today er Beverley Craven this is and er Love Scenes we'll get er chunk three of Nottinghamshire's Big Bang on before two. Beverley Craven that is and er Love Scenes it's Radio Nottingham six minutes to two. Er trains are all okay say British Rail no problems there no problems at the airport two motorways are all fine as well. Er delays problems still in Baysford cos of the closure of David Lane and Southwick Street diversions in operation there. Chapel Lane at Coddington is closed until Friday and at Totton there's roadworks on Nottingham Road at the junction with Attenborough Lane delays are likely especially in busy times. Will update the traffic for you throughout the afternoon and a full service at tea time Alan Clifford on from half four till seven o'clock. F M one O three point eight and ninety five point five the weather forecast for the rest of the day. From Tracey from Radford off you go. Okay staying cloudy for most of the day should stay dry patchy fog will form overnight with a little drizzle. Tomorrow should brighten up with sunny intervals and the outlook for Friday is mainly dry with sunny spells. Marvellous Tracey absolutely marvellous. Er put the next bit on for me save me the job say Nottinghamshire's Big Bang. Nottinghamshire's Big Bang. Fireworks. Fireworks. Day three. Day three. Bye. Good bye. The Trading Standards Department of the County Council is responsible for legal controls on fireworks. In particular that fireworks comply with the British Standard that people register that they are keeping fireworks retailers and wholesalers so that we can go and inspect the storage conditions er and that people obey the law by not selling fireworks to people under the age of sixteen. That's John Nottinghamshire's Assistant Chief Trading Standards Officer. It's his department's job to make sure the law's being applied when it comes to fireworks. The requirement i is that th when they are stored in the erm shops they're stored in safe conditions. That means they are stored in in containers which the public haven't got access to and away from any possibility of er naked flames or any other methods of ignition getting to them. Mike is an Assistant Divisional Officer for Nottinghamshire Fire Brigade. He'd like to see everybody going to public bonfires instead of having private ones. In my opinion er and probably a lot of fire officers' opinions as well bonfires in private houses are no longer necessary. But i if while we've got them we will still be there we will still be called to put them out and one of these days we'll be dealing with bonfires when somebody's house is on fire and we need to be there instead. Er with the possibility of er well horrific situation developing at that I wouldn't like particularly to talk about. So how do Trading Standards make sure that people aren't selling fireworks to those under age? We will try and take we will er as usual send young children definitely under the age of sixteen into shops to see if people will sell fireworks to them and if they do then er we will take the appropriate action which may mean criminal proceedings. It's the er the only way we can see of effectively enforcing that part of the law. It is important the fireworks don't get into young children's hands because they themselves er will be in danger. Mike says that it's surprisingly not just at this time of the year when they have trouble with bonfires that go out of control. Right throughout the year we will attend er a number of bonfires every single month. Er a quiet month will be one and an say building up to October and November time as many as fifty sixty in that particular period. So far if we take on the ninety ninety two figures we attended something like eight hundred bonfires. Precautionary measure and in fact to put fires out. Er in November of last year we actually attended fifty five bonfires that got out of hand. If we hadn't have put them out then serious injury and damage could have been done to property. There are statistics kept on accidents by er Central Government which all hospitals are asked to put to but you've got to realize that these are only people who have attended hospital. Most accidents in the last year occurred at private or er family parties as opposed to larger displays. There were nearly twice as many accidents at private parties as there were nn er public displays. But then there are street accidents which usually mean people discharging fireworks in the street which in itself is an offence enforced by the police. The highest type of firework last year if it was specified was the sparkler remarkably enough and we would make this point very seriously that parents tend to give children sm very small children sparklers and they must remember tha that these things are fireworks they are dangerous they do get red hot er they must supervise them at all times when they give them sparklers cos they may wave them around they may se set somebody else's clothing on fire with them they may get the sparks in their eyes if they get too close to them er and one particular danger of course is that they they may get hold of en the hot end when the firework has finally extinguished and they think it's all finished with. And that is very very hot and will give some nasty burns to people's hands. The business about sparklers erm it is one of those things where the very young children like to hold a sparkler but it has got to be done under proper supervised conditions. You are playing with a fire the temperature at the tip when it's burning is approaching about a thousand degrees centigrade. And that is awfully hot it's enough to bend steel and you can the effects of that on the metalwork after it's burnt away. And there we are putting it into a three or four year old's hand something that's erm got that sort of temperature round it. Trading Standards on Nottinghamshire's Big Bang so a week of fireworks chunk four of that on tomorrow. It's er Dennis next with Afternoon Special I'll see you tonight at the Star Inn on Middle Street in Beeston at eight o'clock for Drinking Partners if you want to come along and watch there. It's the county's favourite radio station B B C Radio Nottingham the time now's two o'clock. Radio Nottingham news with Dave Harper. Calverton Colliery is to close in just over two week's time with the expected loss of around six hundred and fifty jobs. The proposed closure has been confirmed twenty four hours after British Coal announced the pit was to go into the review procedure and it was revealed that it had lost more than six million pounds in the last six months. Union leaders at the pit say they'll challenge the closure by taking legal action. Nottinghamshire police have revealed released a recording of a girl they believe called the Kingsmill Hospital in Sutton in Ashfield claiming she'd had a baby. They think it's the same teenager who's made at least a dozen calls to the police and a hospital in Lincolnshire since reporting the birth at the weekend. Nigel Bell reports. I was the one that killed it and I didn't. He was the one that got me pregnant. This is the voice of the girl who sometimes uses the name Cindy and sometimes Linda. She says she's fourteen and that the father of her child is her own dad. Acting Detective Superintendent Mick Cox says they realize the girl could be in danger but believe it's necessary to broadcast the recording. This has been talked through but with both the Social Services and the the er hospital and er we decided to take that chance. They've checked schools and housing estates in the Mansfield area but say they've no leads. Half a dozen officers are investigating the case but police forces across the East Midlands are on standby. Mick Cox is urging anyone who recognizes this voice to contact the police. There's a free phone number O eight hundred six two six nine nine nine. And every time I've run away from home and then every time you lot have took me back home and then I end up getting pregnant. At the trial of two eleven year old boys accused of murdering the toddler James Bolger the court has heard a statement given to the police by James's mother Denise. She described how he disappeared and how she frantically searched for him. The boys have denied abducting and murdering James and attempting to abduct another child. From Preston Crown Court Kevin Bucket. Denise Bolger gave her statement to the police on February the thirteenth the day after her son James disappeared but before his body was found on a railway embankment in Walton. She described how she was at a butcher's shop when she noticed James had gone. She ran into other nearby shops looking for him and asking people if they'd seen him. Then she reported his disappearance to the shopping centre security office and the police were called. Mrs Bolger who's expecting a baby next month has not been in court but her husband Ralph sat through the first two days. The court also heard evidence today from a nurse who was in the shopping centre several hours before James Bolger disappeared. She said she saw the two defendants tormenting an elderly woman by prodding her from behind. Then they ran away. The trial is continuing. Crime in England and Wales has risen to record levels according to the latest Home Office figures. They showed that in the year to June reported crime was almost four per cent higher than in the previous twelve months. But the rate of increase is much smaller than in recent years and some police forces including the Metropolitan Police recorded fewer crimes. A member of staff has been suspended from a centre for the handicapped in Nottinghamshire pending and internal investigation. The probe at Redoaks Training Centre in Rainworth follows a police investigation at Stone Cross Lane Residential Unit in Mansfield. Nottinghamshire County Council won't confirm what the latest allegations are about but it's reported that they centre on fraud and sexual abuse at Redoaks. They've stressed that the two cases aren't linked though. Huge fires are still raging out of control in California. Thousands of people have been forced to move out of their homes in the exclusive resort of Malibu and suburbs northwest of Los Angeles. Several people are reported to have been seriously injured. A State funeral mass has been held in Rome for the film director who died at the weekend. Thousands packed the Basilica where the service was held others followed the mass from the Square outside. The director whose most famous films include the and Eight and a Half will be buried in the family crypt in his home town of Rimini. On to the weather forecast now for Nottinghamshire. Many area feel about how the way the women are treated in B M K, do you think that, I mean is there enough provision for women,especial erm are you taking into consideration, do you feel on er is, do you feel that you're not, your needs aren't particularly catered for, I mean in the sense of, you might not have experienced this yourself but like er, maternity provisions, things like that, I mean you get maternity leave, do you feel that Oh that's ok that's okay, aha. that your job is safe, that you could come back or It's as safe as any job is in today's industrial Aha. climate I would imagine. But most of the women over there they, you could say they're, they're by the age of, of childbearing Mhm. except for the, the ones that they've just started recently. Mhm. Believe or not I could be one of the younger ones in my forties, they're all kind of past that. Mhm. But they, they've got to start these younger people, although out there in there are a, a great number of ex-spoolers, but whether they would want to come back Mhm. I don't know. Mhm. But And has the, it, technology changed a lot? Yeah some things has, as I said we work off these er graph papers and they, they do them now by computer. Aha. But the, the range of colour is sometimes so close and they can't give you a great diversity and the light's shining on it and sometimes the sun coming in Mhm. can give you a headache Mhm. whereas before they used to hand paint them all, well we know this is time consuming and expensive whereas you just program it in and Mhm. you've got your copies of it, if you, you happen to tear one they can give you another copy like that. Mhm. Whereas if it got torn in the hand painted days then you're talking a long length of time. Yeah, it was serious, yeah. So that way the technology but the machines are basically what they had Mhm. from nineteen twenty three. Yeah. With some exceptions. Has that led to a reduction in the workforce do you think, do you now have machines that can do jobs that too much? No not, not really. Pre er you know how it went into the receivership Mhm. and the old B M K s well there was about er two hundred people in the department that's when everything was boom boom. Mhm. Now the there's only twenty eight, thirty cos we we we've a much smaller market. So now have to go for the contracting, the overseas jobs. Mhm, I see. But the domestic market people just can't afford twenty five Mhm. thirty pound to do out their lounge or a bedroom or whatever a square That's right. yard or square metre. You not get any perks from working in here? Unless you talk about cheap carpet get some cheap carpet. Aha. That's about it. That's really it? Mhm. No special offers? Well nothing much else you can Mhm. get when you Mhm. work in a carpet place the only thing is Aye. the end product. So there's no And it's it's not an item that, that you're er furnishing every two or three months, this is an expensive That's true, yes, aha. item. If you're doing out a lounge you're maybe talking about seven or eight hundred pounds if you want a top, top of the range carpet. Aha, aha. So you, you just do not do this. Yes. In a bedroom you're looking for something at one ninety nine or two ninety nine . You just couldn't possibly do it. Aha, so er wondering, we know there's, there's no unions any more in the factory, that's right isn't it? There are unions but the m the management don't really entertain them but people Aha. still pay their money every week. Aye. I do not do this but some pe everyone's entitled to throw their money away if they like. And of course I think that maybe the electricians and the, the other tradesmen they might be in their equivalent union. Yes aha. But the, the Carpet Union, there is still a number of people that do believe in it. Are you on any of these committees that, you know the, the organizing committees erm that are sort of built up to solve problems within the, you know, the various departments, or do you know anyone They, they have a, a quality circle thing. Aha. Yes, er no,I'm not in that. And they have another er works' committee for the management, and representatives from each department. It's just the works like a trade union thing, they sit down and the management'll tell them, or the workforce'll say what about this, that and the other Mhm. and they come to some agreement and the, the management tell what's happening, how many orders they've got. Er if a department's busy or maybe need to shift personnel from here to there, Mhm. if that department isn't really that busy. Aha. So they, they have that, they, they say they don't need unions because they've got a good working relationship. Do you feel that works, or would you prefer a union set up? It seems to work in here, because er the carpet industry, if you speak, speak to people in different firms, say they all work the same way,it seems to work on a Mhm. shoe string er from hand to mouth. Mhm. Er nothing really that organized, but every carpet place seems to be the same. Mhm. It, it's, it's not you, it's not until you've probably worked in another place and come here or go Aha. from here, that you Right. would see a difference but people that have always worked in here don't notice any difference. Aha, aha. But is, it's a special kind of climate in here. Mhm, mhm. , aha, just basically I mean how do you find working and, you know rearing children, bringing up a family, and doing your housework, do you, how do you organize it, do you find that you get up early and do work in the morning, will you do a bit of work when you go home or, does your partner help out with the work? Oh just everybody has to pull together, mhm. Everybody mucks in. Mhm, your family'll do various things? Well I've only got one daughter, and she is er extremely good. She does all the washing and ironing and that kind of thing. Mhm. Er, and the work just gets done, you don't need to do it every day. Aha, aha. I'm not a fanatic, I'm not No, you can be when you're working full time. Oh I think there are other things to do. I find Aha. housework depressing and boring, Aha. I, I mean I, I, I w I couldn't say that I would be happy being in the house all the time. I hate cooking, and I've never tried to bake in my life. I love eating by the way but I just er, I don't see any point in cooking three meals a day and washing dishes three or four time I don't find it satisfying, not that this is extremely fulfilling but Mhm. you seem to get a bit of everything. Mhm. And I need the money to finance my, my climbing , and other kind of things that I do. Mhm But I don't see this as the be all and end all, Mhm. I couldn't possibly stay in the house, No. impossible. No. I'm, I'm, I'm not er highly domesticated, and I don't er feel the need to produce children. Mhm. I'm not a wonderful mother. Because erm my daughter's at the stage that she's probably Mhm. looking after me. Mhm. But I'm not the least bit maternal. Right, so erm I'm probably a bad example,I'm what you're wanting to find out . No, not at all, not at all . So do you feel that erm I mean I know that you've been here twenty one years, and do you think women are more important or less important in the factory than they were? I heard, when I started looking into the project at first that erm, the women used to do most of the weaving but you don't actually do the weaving now, and they used to basically you know make up the, the larger part of the work force, is that the case now? Well that's in relation to the, the, the weaving that they do. Years ago they had all these narrow looms, about this size, and this is where women worked, they called it the narrow section, and maybe mostly for hotels or you know, in the olden days they had stair, your mother'll probably, stair runners or holes and the, the carpet just went like that and there'd be a piece of lino up the side, Mhm. well there was a lot of call for that. Mhm. And women worked in that department, whereas the men worked at the huge broadloom Mhm. looms which are very heavy, very heavy, and through fashion, fashion changing and I mean people don't have these things any more. A lot of pubs and hotels will do the the their places out in these narrow sections so if one gets worn they can lift it up and Mhm, yeah. replace it. But houses, when you're doing a house you, you don't tend to do that now, you just have your broad loom Mm. and fit it in. So in that relationship the d the, the women are redundant as it were. Yes. There only is two, well there are two, one, they do shiftwork. Mhm. And the they'll turn a week about. But the the there's not the call in this er place for, for women in the weaving department. Mhm. But our department hasn't changed, the women are just doing the same job as they did sixty Mhm. years ago. And probably in the picking as well. In the winding it's just their lot hasn't changed a great deal. Mhm, mhm. Except I would say the winders are worse off cos they're doing three shifts . Right, mhm. And I just couldn't hack that I don't think. Aha. Mm. So, erm have you got, do you have a lot of friends through work do you find, I mean do you sort of organize things after work, do you ever go for a drink ? Well a lot, a lot of people er er do er ju just about three weeks ago two women from our department retired so we had er we had a night out up in , that's where they live, so there is that kind of thing, Aha. or if on the few occasions that someone gets married, they hold a night. , aha. Er and some of the girls do like make-up parties and things like that. Some Mhm. of them go to the weight training at . Mhm. But as I say I don't do that kind of thing, I, I prefer to go away to the hills, Aha, are you a keen climber? and, and do my thing. Mhm. My daughter thinks I'm mad. When it came to my fortieth birthday she said, what would you like for your birthday? I said, I'd like a really good pair of trainers. And I'm no good at tying laces so she got me a pair of Adidas you know with the velcro, Aha. she said, why can't you be a normal mother and just want chocolates or perfume? I said, well that's not much good when you're hanging from the end of a rope . And who do you go with? I go with my husband. Your husband? Mhm. And whereabouts do you go, just Oh Glencoe, Skye, Aran, you know just Mhm. up there. Do you, do you stay up there, do you have Mhm. a caravan. No, a tent, or we've got an estate car if it's just a weekend jaunt, and it's maybe wet, we just sleep in the back of the car aha. So complete change from this place anyway, aha, and you meets up with so many wonderful people. Aha, aha. It gives you something else to talk about. That's right, aha. Instead of just,going to Tescos for some groceries or I mean I, I, I don't drink a lot, I mean maybe after I've been out in the hills you have got to drink something to replace the sweat, but I'm not a great drinker and I don't, I don't smoke and I, I don't like discos or anything like that Mhm. so you've got to find something else to do. That's right, a healthy pursuit. I used to play a lot of badminton and swimming but I've got bored out of my ears so it's something to keep fit. Mhm. So I bought myself a bike, and I've been popping backwards and forwards to my like How about Ah but as I say my daughter thinks I'm mad. how about nicknames? You have a lot of nicknames in the factory? Er well er the just these two people that retired there, er they used to come this man in a car from , that was their lift to their work. And it was the days of the C B Mhm. and he had this handle,a and er they were saying, we'll need to get ourself a handle, ah, I said, well what about the Dolly Sisters? So that stuck and eventually when that place folded and we came over here, er we just called them the Dollies and that was, they were referred to, everybody knew who they were, Aha. the Dollies. Aha. So that, that's a bit of it in there. Aha. So you just basically, you all A and, and know each other by your ordinary names? Mhm. You don't shout nicknames Mhm. at each other, no? Well not in our department anyway, I don't know, I can't speak for anybody else. Aha, right. Although I've worked in nearly all the departments you don't really get to know the people that well. Mhm. have we missed out anything, is there anything I don't know. you'd like to tell us? Cos we're novices at this. Och aye. I mean er does it bother you at all that well I mean are most of the men managers? Managers men? Er the management Where's the opportunities for like female apprentices and things like that? Nowadays I mean I know there never used to be apprenticeships for women but Well I don't know if there are any women, I couldn't tell you whether any girls have applied to be like trainee tenters, that's people that sort Mhm. the looms. Or, the trainees in our department would be female anyway. Mhm. And the way the management work in here,I can say is they,aim they're promoting anybody to a chargehand they usually promote somebody that's actually no threat to themselves. There's a kind of yes man, that, that's the way the carpet industry works in general. Mhm. They don't promote somebody that's gonna shimmy past them up the corporate ladder although you couldn't say this place is a, a giant corporation . Mhm. Aha. But sometimes I, I do feel that the girls, I, I know a couple of people in other departments that you could say would do the job equally well as the man they've put in, they probably Aha. have bu be a better grounding. Aha. Yes. But I saw that in the glazier and when I worked in there, they would bring people in. Mhm. Oh M they wouldn't promote? No, er, if you had a degree, Aha. and you absolutely no knew nothing about producing plain bearings you were sitting in the chair and probably a guy that worked his way through the factory floor who knew the job inside out, he was still a deputy. Aha. but because er you maybe had a degree well you get in there and you have to start Mhm. learning all this but you didn't know all the Mhm. the ins and outs. Mhm. But that happens all over. Mhm, what's the pay like compared to other factories in the area? It's quite low. Is it? Mhm. Because er how many years ago is it? Seven or eight years ago we, we, we're on piecework, we made our own wage. Er and most of us had in excess of a hundred pound, maybe a hundred and six, a hundred and ten pound, but when this guy bought place over, there was a kind of flat rate, and we'd to drop sixteen pounds to ninety Mm. pounds. Well at the time you're thinking, God that's better than twenty or twenty five pound if you were unemployed, That's right. on the brew, kind of thing. Mhm. So you jumped at the chance, but it is, I think th th poverty wage in Europe is it not, not about a hundred and forty, a hundred and forty five pounds? Well we're nowhere near that, nowhere near that. Mm, that's right, mm. That's why when I hear my daughter talking about getting fifteen or twenty K a year I'm going it would pay me two or three years for God's sake. You can look after me then. But saying that if you want a decent wage in here you have to work a lot of overtime. Yes. And most people do. Mm. Because er i from the management point of view if you have got four hundred people and you work a lot of overtime that saves you having six or seven hundred people. Mhm. And if you want to cut back you can either cut down on your workforce or you can cut down in the Mhm. overtime. In my department just now they're working seven days a week, Mhm. and four, four nights overtime. Mm. I couldn't do that, not that I want to. Do you think the conditions make people kind of like-minded in like the respective politics and things like that? Do you think it's sort of, you know, do you hold a lot of views in common with people you work beside or? Not, no, not really. Not really. We've got quite a mixture. Oh, has it gone round a bit? Yeah, it's gone round a bit now. Yeah. Well we had oh I'm trying to think what we had today oh got out of assembly because I had to go and speak to this maths teacher who's dead boring! Mr but like I pretended I had to go and see him not because I had to go and see him just because I didn't wanna go to assembly really! Oh! Cos I'm like that! We haven't, we haven't got assembly at the moment cos like you know that erm musical ? Oh yeah. It's all, all that but ooh, that's a groovy stage ! Oh What! Oh yeah left over left over at and stuff which Oh yes Oh we've made these telephones ! And well look Well we know that now ! Yeah but it's just Ah gee Have a look if Shaun and Joanna are back, oh yeah they are. I said I'd go down there but the, like the car wasn't there so I didn't go back. Oh dear ! I didn't, I didn't know Joe was out actually. Yes. Isn't Scott down there? No, he's gone to a play at the college and a yeah I was er like when I realised that had come on I thought does he know? Just don't say anything ! And thought that they were picking his nose ! Maybe he's not in ! I thought, oh never mind ! Put the phone down again. And then I thought, well you can always and like say, can you tell Scott! And I will Can you tell I've come on so I'm not pregnant! Alright? And I thought like his mum might not find that really amusing or anything Yeah. so and I thought I could just leave him sort of like a message that was subtle enough so he'd know, like erm Tell him he's not a daddy! Yes ! ring , could you tell Scott that er that erm oh God, I don't know! Actually I was thinking of some really good, funny things I could say earlier I can't think of any now! Things like erm oh yeah, could yo could you tell Scott that er, he doesn't have to go to church and pray any more, something like that ! Tell him he doesn't have to go to confession with Helena! That's right ! Oh gee! He doesn't have to book me an appointment at the clinic ! Ooh I wonder what that could be about ? Er, like this morning at break I walked, I walked straight past Peter right and er come up to me and he goes that's not very nice is it? I thought what ! He just walked straight past me, oh well I'm so sorry and he goes what's wrong with you anyway lately? Nothing! Nothing wrong with me ! Nothing at all! It's ! Oh Pete can I talk to you about something ? Oh Shrimpy made me laugh me about it cracks me up like ! Ah, look at the, look, just look at this letter he wrote me! Ah Pete , yeah he was saying I i Joe was saying how how he was really embarrassed cos he showed your mum or something! My mum goes what letter's that? I goes oh it , you read it. Like like all the way to it I was thinking Helena, I don't really know how to put this but I I'll have a go. I thought he said I've got to go! I was gonna say bye ! That's a long letter then! I'm sorry about being in a mood Saturday but I wasn't really in a mood with you. I know I told you that I was but I was feeling sorry for someone, not Emma or anyone like that. Oh dear ! I care for Emma more than I can say, but I also care for you and I'm really sorry if you were hurt. Excuse me! Excuse me! Excuse me! Wuargh! Oh . I had to in that! At the moment everyone has been talking about other people behind people's backs yeah Shrimp, you got good English! I didn't tell you what Emma thought Just in case you're catching this bit ! that's cos I don't know. I don't think a person told, who apologises isn't really an apology but I thought there must a reason why you didn't. Yeah. Ah oh! I know he, he can't write! And Joe told me on Sunday You're illiterate! why yo , you didn't. I was going to apologise for being stupid on Sunday when you both disappeared. Me and Andy looked all over for you both last night I had a few things on my mind Didn't look very well, we were walking down by the side of the road ! but things on my mind er, my my mind to be able to apologise. Oh I'm sorry ! and hope we can still be friends? Love to be ! Well whe , when I got to that bit I went I mean I was feeling a lit , wasn't , I'm gonna barf! Oh I'm going urgh! I just thought get a life! You know how Give me that ! He makes me laugh he always writes in capital letters doesn't he? Mm. And Join in ! Oh you sound like Mrs Yeah! ! Wow! Well and he wrote me this letter saying erm saying I, I realise that there's been something on your mind recently and I hope you can talk to me about it. Oh yeah, by the Shrimp I could of got pregnant! Things like and I know you can talk to me because you've got the world's problems and everything ! Ah, it ju , although, I mean, just when you said that just reminded me that time Hannah ! I'll never Oh God! I was just bor , the rest of my days! You joked me about what she should of in the day? Yeah, yeah oh When. God! What, what what exactly I was staying on I said oh er, yeah cos yo , had Joe saying you were disappointed that I couldn't say it to your face! And I said, ah yeah, but she didn't say it to my face, did you see and er and erm and Joe was saying this to Shrimpy I think, or so I think she was saying to Shrimpy Mm. and erm Hannah Yeah, Hannah Hannah 's got a twitch! And was going, I know what she said,I was there ! Oh! I'm thinking I'm sure you were Hannah because actually you were inside and they were outside, there's like a door and the rest of the house between you! I think, ah gee! But I can't believe that girl oh Scott tells me everything! Like I ju , honestly I Oh yes! Scott , Scott, Scott told me what it was all about and I was going,not to me! It's me here ! Oh yeah ! It might be and oh ah I was just sat there going mm, yes I believe Hannah! You Yeah. you don't actually know anything that we're talking about! Because we hate you! But there you go ! No I don't hate her she just annoys me badly! That's all ! She made ee she made a Heather a birthday cake the other day and I, I've got say actually this cake was pretty good but like, she had to take it to school! I mean, the girl is sad! If you're gonna take a birthday cake to school I mean, that is sad isn't it? My brain's just died ! But that is very very sad! But like er, she took it sch to school and Scott was giving us a lift to school so didn't have to walk and she's in the car and she's going if this gets if this gets all smashed up Scott I hope you realise I'm blaming you! And she was serious! I was thinking I would of turned round and ge get out I did get out the fucking car! I sa , I said I just went I just said to her look Hannah you don't have to come in the car! And like, I said it jokingly but wi with Mm. like a sort of you know Sort of with a sort of I'm dying to stick this knife in your back ! Yes. Oh! Oh, did you see Inspector Morse last night? No I saw the very end bit. Did you see the where's she where that girl stabbed er her what was that girl in? I was sat there, me and my dad were going,what has she been in ? She was in erm Got a really irritating voice hasn't she? You know where there was that there was the young girl and there was the old wo , oldish woman who was supposed to be a film star or something? Oh yeah! That thing where erm she, she worked for him so that Yeah. she lived in that hotel. Mm. Oh yes, I know that! Oh that thing that was supposed It was crap wasn't it! to be funny! That stupid Everyone thought the irritating little dog and th , the and Ted out of Grange Hill porter ! Yeah. Did you watch the one where you wanted to go mm I'd like to casserole that dog! Yeah ! Ahhh ! Ah dear! What a mouth! I wonder if they let you Look keep the tapes? I've only used one! Keep all the rest, I've had nineteen ! Your . You know? Look Say nothing! this is, this is sad I am and how worried I've been this has been round my neck! My luckiest lucky pendant ! Lucky is looking bent which has been bent and battered ! It's like, got scrapings out of it and everything and and it's in this little lovely container or something down my neck! I, I bet, I bet i I bet it's the first time in your life you felt shi , yes come on ! which I'm saying, you can hold m , you can hold me to this, I will never ever ever complain about being on again in my life! But I think Ah dear! I'll just boycott that now and start complaining! Ah dear! And we nearly made Andy sick yesterday, it was so funny! We was going like because like, we was talking about it and er he goes About what? Periods. Oh, being on! Yes And er, like I said er I was, like I was talking to like he was Yeah ! I goes yeah it was you know i the worst time is in assembly and you think oh Jesus! And you stand up and you like you like mm, accidentally rub your hand on your arse Yeah. just to make sure ! sure, yeah ! And you look at the chair just to make sure there isn't a pool on there! Yeah ! And you walk away going like this you know ooh let's squeeze my legs in as much as possible ! Yeah . We thought we'd start with an interesting topic ! Well why not! It's what we talk about all the time anyway! Yeah ! Yeah. I tell you when we'll have to put this on on Saturday night! But, when everyone's gone when it's just us three! Oh yeah! That'll be a right one! My dog's a virgin ! My dog's a big dobbo ! I'll never forget that I will never forget that, I had, I'll told my mum like that we I told my mum we'd be sleeping over and she said that was alright and she sort of looked at me as if to say mm, yes will Helena's brother be there? Yes, Helena's brother will there all night, mum! Jimmy Hill! Not that she's sleeping at Clare's are we ? No ! It's a bit. Oh wild ! He will be back about ooh eleven o'clock in the morning ! Oh no! Look at me weep ! I'm really disappointed cos I don't think my mum will let me stay now! I think you're just gonna rush home and tell her and everything else! Yeah! Course I am! Oh mum I've decided not to sleep at Helena's because her nice brother's gonna be there! Mum goes, well do you wanna stay there if the dog's gonna be there? Oh no No I'll put the dog in the shed! . No mum, actually erm I'm not gonna go down to Helena's and wi ,wi , you know with the dogs I'm gonna come home Perhaps have the riot you know! They're all gonna be being arsed out their faces! Everyone's just gonna be laying on the floor going God I'm arsed! I'm blood thirsty! Everybody's just gonna have a real riot! And then Helena, Joanne and me would be sleeping over but because they've got a dog I'm not going to sleep! In case it spits on me ! Yeah ! Again ! Again ! No but like I said to my mum it'll be alright because your do , your brother'll be in all evening won't he Helena? Honestly, yeah! Honest guv! My brother, my brother really wants to did, did you know Pete like, phoned me up yesterday Yeah. and like I thought, I had to make up an excuse why I went out! Cos ever , like my mum and my brother were in when I got home. So I came home and I goes and he go and mum goes where have you been? I goes, oh there's been arguments again! Oh there's you spend all your time sorting out other people's arguments and I'm not as thick as that! Actually mum, I'm not! Stick the V's up at you mum! Behind the wall of course! I don't think I'll go I don't want to have a broken nose! And er and er Got any nail clippers? Yeah er there! Ah! And er Dog brush ooh! Yeah. Looks like a dog's brush Ooh! ooh! ooh! ooh! do you think? Just see if you Erm can say it before anybody excuse me! else! What? I've got a red one of those ! Oh! Yeah, but it's not as big as it's not the same size as that is it? No, cos yours is a cat brush and mine's a dog brush! Oh sorry! Dog! You calling me a cat? Yes! Are you calling me a dog? I hope so! foxy chick ! Alright then, I'll let you off! Ah! Erm did I tell you about that Lucy and Ricky? When Lucy reckoned Ricky didn't want her any more? And I goes do this to Ricky go up to Lucy and go yo, hot chick! Come over to my place I'll drop my trousers and we can have a quickie ! And he did ! And what did she say? Er sorry Nothing could of told her that I, I to , I told her and she goes What did she say? I told her say something really, really stupid like like okay then steaming dude or something ! Alright then. Okay! And then, where was I? Oh yeah! So I came home, my mum goes what you be ,wha what's happening anyway? I goes ah Shrimpy's been having a massive go at Pete he's threatened to punch his face in and all this business ! Gosh you ge , I bet Pete was worried! I know ! But he was, he was threatening him anyway and he said Pete was What from Friday night? Do you know about what? No, no he's been befo , been after that! Yeah. Why? Woh,Christ She's been in a shop with him I think. They'll . Yeah, they'll ! Erm why, why was he doing that on Friday? Yeah, well apparently right well in case you didn't Well she's got a theory but go on in case you didn't notice I was in rather a little bit of a mood on Friday! Were you ? I didn't try to hide it oddly enough ! Oddly enough! I went cos it was then I goes to Pete, oh no I ought to go out really, and he goes no you're not! Sort of looked at me and went okay Well if you I'm not arguing ! if you want my body, you know you've got it! You only have to ask once! But like erm I wonder if they listen to these? If you are listening er I know I look like a real goody goody and everything I'm not really ! Anyhow, the man Go on. with the man I thought Woh! I was so tempted to sit there and say excuse me dear you need a shave! Or, excuse me you look like my dad twenty years ago! That exci , it's alright this thing from the past, he did remind me of someone actually. Mr that's who it is ! Mr ,. Ooh ooh fiddle with my moustache! I bet they know you Anyway, right what was it about cos they won't be able to understand a thing we are saying! Going ooh! Er er er er er! I I ! And we're talking at the same time as well? Oh let's not all talk at the same time! Let's be Magic Roundabout people! So they want a realistic conversation then do they? No let's let's loo Anyway, where was I? I was saying, oh yeah erm Shrimpy like, we, me and Scott were playing snooker and I, I came in to see if like, either of you, anyone else wanted to play doubles and like,Swimp , Shrimpy was just sat by himself in the middle of the floor, cross-legged just sat there like a little pixie or something! Well, no not a little And I just went six foot three pixie ! Right, so a six foot three pixie, never mind! But like he was just sat there! And I went over, I goes you alright? He goes, yes! Oh sorry! Please forgive me! I goes, do you wanna go, go and play snooker? So he goes, yeah alright then. Oh come on you can be on my side cos it was obvious, like, he was just sort of sat there. Mm. And erm and then like, he went back in after we'd finished playing and me and Scott carried on playing for a bit and then erm what was he going? Oh yeah, he told me afterwards right, that he, the only reason he was angry was because Friday night reminded him of the time in his past or something! And Pete reminded him of, him of the person that he hated and all this! And I was thinking Shrimpy, you're stupid! Get a life ! You sure! Oh ! And then, cos I thought boy! So what did he do? What did Shrimpy do on Friday night? Oh, he told Richard Richard that he was, he was gonna se , he wanted to smack Pete's face in! Oh yeah! So what did Richard do? Course, Richard who keeps everything to himself ! Richard not known as Mersey Tunnel Gob or anything ! Oh dear ! Oh dear I couldn't believe it though! I mean that is sad! Ahhh no! I can't believe it! But Pete reckoned it was because like cos like Pete's seeing Susan Mm. and like Then he was with you. and he was with me Yeah. and he reckoned Pete was a total bastard and everything! Even though he doesn't know Susan he a Yeah. he reckons Pete's cheating on Susan, he's been really bad to Helena as well he's just using them and all Yeah. this business. But, in a way I mean like, I thought that as well, but then I thought well that's stupid that is because you weren't as as bad as Pete was were you? I mean, let's face it I mean, who's taking advantage of him You were ta , you were taking advantage, not him! I mean, on both times it's been me taking advantage of him, it really Yeah. because I mean he he's been both times and I haven't. Let's face it you fancy him don't you? He knows that! And Mm mm like he just I mean he just you know, he's there isn't he, at the time? He thinks like, okay fair enough lets have a bit of snog you know, fair enough, whatever else! But like He's so funny though! He cracked me up, he goes like, like with that I mean And Shrimpy fancies you rotten anyway! That's the only the reason! He's probably just jealous! Well like I said, I said that, I said that to Pete and Pete goes, God I wish he'd make up his mind! Yeah. So he'd obviously sa not said it, I mean Pete was really shocked! He'd Yeah. obviously not said anything to Pete about me Mm. so I dunno! He said it to Andy though, and I mean I don't, I don't know, Andy really surprises me because like he always seems to be like, the quiet one doesn't it? I mean, when we're all like, laughing and joking and everything he's like, oh yeah really in with it but when everyone's like arguing or whatever he he Mm. doesn't get involved because everything revolves round him doesn't it? Yeah. But like everybody,eve It's his house everyone goes to isn't it? Everybody seems to Andy seems to know everything! Like, Andy knows about me! And like, Scott told me and thinking about it if I'd of been in in the frame, frame of mind that I'm in know for example, I would of sort of pah! What right has he got to know or anything? But like, I don't mind cos I know he won't say anything. Mm. I mean flipping talk about keeping it a secret! I went to the door last night ten minutes after Scott had told him and like, I was crying at the door, and he goes ahh, is something not wrong like, you know? And he was being nice, but sort of, jokingly nice and I goes oh yeah, you know? And er, he goes oh I don't expect, has it got anything to do with Helena and Joan? I said, oh no nothing to do with them and he goes ah, Shrimpy then? I said no. And like, I'd no idea that he knew! And Mm. erm like he's really nice like that though. Yeah, I know I re , I'd I mean, I don't fancy him, no fair enough he's ugly in my opinion! Yeah. But, I really do like, I'm, I'm always He's a really nice person! I mean the I mean, like, I mean, people say it that a personality makes up for like, looks or whatever, and with hi , he's the only person I've ever met where it really really does! Yeah. His personality is just so nice! And he's Yeah. such a lovely person he really is! You know and I Yeah. just think ahhh, you know? That's, I tell you what that's the one person that, sitting here thinking now, I can't think of any time where I've been angry with Andrew No. at all. Like I get, I mess about with him and like Yeah! cos like, he told everyone about me and Pete and everything, you know? Yeah. Like what him and Joe had an argument about. But er you know? So you're not gonna say that on the tape then are you Hel ? No, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna say it on the tape,! But I mean he did, well he, he knew, I told him Mm. but I mean, him and Joe were in the room at the same time. Yeah. You know, and I you know, I sort of told him. Well I did Mm. tell him ! And he, but he didn't actually tell anybody. Mm. I mean, he made a few comments a but nothing that anybody could tell. No. I mean, everybody knows now anyway. Yeah. To do , can you really see them all? What? The What? The them things. No, I di , I had one on my neck Yeah. I had one The things that we're not actually mentioning! I had one there Yeah. you might just Well a be able to see the last little of it. I can't actually see it, no. And I've got a ye nice yellow bruise there. Yeah. And I've got one on my back. And can you see that one? Let's have a butchers! Where? Thought it was just there somewhere. It's probably gone now actually. Yeah Just there. think it has. It was just there. No, I can't see anything. But there wa , I've got Just there. a nice yellow bruise still there. You can see the one that Scott done the other day. You know I've got that school shirt with the big collar? Mhm. Like Joanne told me about that you the can see it straight through it! the shirt and the collar and you could still see it! And it was like, I'm not joking, it was the colour of that! Mm. And it was there a week, oh well, at the last, the last thing I saw of it was like, Monday night and when did he give it me? The Sat , the we , the Saturday a week before! And I swear, it really hurt! And it right on as well, just there! Mm. Really really hurt it did! And it wasn't, oh God! And we only did it as a joke!you ! I didn't even know they were there to be quite honest. I got Mm. up the next morning and, cos I had that you know, that stripy top on? Yeah. And my mum, my mum was sat in The Weathers with me and I'd talked to her and everything and I didn't even know that that Yeah. one was there! And like,but like, I got up the next morning and I just went oh Jesus! But there was They were like this one still and up there and the one on my back as well! And Scott, Scott did this and like and erm he goes oh it's not that bad! And I goes, oh you stupid git! Why did you have to do it there for, you know? Put my school shirt on, oh you won't see it! Oh no won't see it with that flipping big collar on my school shirt! Actually, you couldn't see it, but you could see it through anyway so it didn't make really that much difference. But like, I got the mirror down and like, I looked at it and whether it was the light or whether it just hadn't come up cos it was only like, a few seconds afterwards Mm. I looked at it and it was just like sort of, light brown and I thought oh that's not too bad! I got home and it was like, glowing and I'm thinking oh my God! There was like, arrows pointed to it still ! I mean, I only had that one on my neck and I thought and like I was I was ! Wi , with your polos on ! collars ! all round you! Like, my dad le , like I was doing the crossword or something my dad leant over me and I went, yeah, oh really! Yeah. I haven't actually got a neck ! Yeah, that was like me, I mean like I'd, I wasn't bad like, cos all the time I was just wearing like polo necks or like shirts with high collars and stuff cos it wasn't actually on my neck it was just like on my, this one. Mm. I don't know what that is actually? It's a collarbone . Collarbone yeah. But like erm pyjamas, cos you know I wo , I usually wear those ones with like low neck or like Yeah. my babygro or something. Mm. So like, there was me sort of all of a sudden wearing like old T-shirts and stuff in bed so that I'd got quite high collars and mum was sort of going aren't your pyjamas clean? Yeah, they're clean but I wanna clear up spots on my back! Yeah, still wanna clear up the spots on my back. Can you see through here mum? Oh dear! I mean, I mean it wo that was pro , the lightest one on my Yeah. neck! That was lucky really in a way Oh! isn't it? And I was thinking, oh I wa honestly I didn't know they were there. But like, Scott was going to me he was going to me, oh stop complaining or I'll give you one your tit, like and I goes well I wouldn't mind so much if it was on my , I wear a bra all the time you know I mean Yeah. you don't even take your bra off to do P E or whatever! I mean, no one 's gonna see it there are they? You're flipping massive one ! I dunno. If Zena saw it and, and made a a subtle comments like Mm. you know Oh got a nasty Ah bruise there! Yeah, actually se , I sa , actually she said oh what, have you been walking into this time? Hah, shut up! Shut up before I punch your face in! But like erm no one else saw it. But, I tell you what, it was so embarrassing! The, it was the Mo , the Monday after the Saturday got, the Saturday it was done, I had P E oh great! So there's me like I'm sat in first lesson we have P E last lesson sat in the first lesson and I'm th , I've thought God my bra strap feels really lose! So I'm right I thought oh my God! There's a gap in between, they're not attached any more! What would you do ? .I mean, like, okay it wasn't bad I mean let's face it and I'm not exactly flipping Dolly Parton am I?! exploding everywhere wouldn't she ! But like, I was thinking this is gonna be so embarrassing like in P E! With ha half a bra on ! ! my cups down my cups down to my waist ! I sa , I was sat there and and then we was in maths, like the lesson before and I was going Zena, I don't wanna do P E! I just do not want to do P E! And she's going, why not? You like P E, I don't wanna do it Zena will you write me a letter to get me out of it? She's going no I won't, you know, not unless you tell me what it i , why it is you don't wanna do it! So in the end I wro , I wrote her this letter because I couldn't say it out loud in case anyone else heard me! And say that I've busted my bra strap ! So she goes, oh don't worry about it. Like, we go into the loo and like, you can mend it. Mm. So of course I've thought oh yeah that's all, okay, I thought, cos like, some of them have got the loop actually on the, the like on the top of the cup haven't they? Mm. Did this one? No! The loop's attached to the end of the strap! It's a bit of the cup that's actually come apart, unsewn! So that meant I had to get the part of the, the top bit of the cup, thread it through the hoo , the hoop and then tie it in a knot! So like, you can imagine I had to have all the strap completely undone so like the, the buckle was like down here! And above the knot! Comfortable then? Well it wasn't, it wasn't that bad but like it was really weird because like you could see like, people like, especially the lads, just sort of looking at you and then like not meaning to be pervy but just like, looking again as if to think why has Emma got a, a extraordinary lump on half the top of her boob, you know ! It's like a lump there! They're thinking, mm, a shame ! But like, it was alright then because like means that you can changed up in this one corner of the changing room all the time and so I'd got my shirt on while I was putting my T-shirt on like for the reason that my bra strap was bust, not actually because I'd got a gigantic love bite around my neck ! But like er But I mean So that was alright really. But, I couldn't believe it cos I he goes to me, what do you think of love bites? And I goes, I think they're horrible to be quite honest, I don't Yeah. like them! Same as me! I goes to Scott, I really really hate love bites and er and he goes, yeah and me. The only time he's ever had one was at this kid's party Fran , Franny someone, he's actually a bloke ! Ooh that's I said that's he went to this party and he he was like really hard and he was really drunk and he gave Scott, Noel and Ian a love bite like for a joke ! He just decided to do just for a laugh! Oh, how sick! Ah what a gay ! I know like, anyway but like, Scott had gone home said to his mum like, is his mum isn't, going what's that on your neck? You know,woh what you been doing, sort of thing! And he's told her the whole story so Noel's gone home and his mum's gone, what's that on your neck? So Noel's gone oh someone tripped me up, I fell down the stairs and hit it on the coffee table, right! His mum believed him! So then his Scott's mum and Noel's mum met in town and they were just talking and Scott's mum it's dis , God it's disgusting isn't it that lad given all them little lads love bites! And er Noel's mum's going well what? I don't know what you mean! Noel said he'd hit it on the coffee table ! Next day at school, Noel's come in and gone to Scott, you bastard! Why do you have go and tell your mum the truth for ! I'd never tell my mum that! Like, luckily they're Oh God! no , not very big but I've still got the one, I've still got, and it's right next to it as well! Mm. Now it's yellow now it's going! Yeah. But, ah Ah gee ah Jesus! I think they're At least really disgusting! Cos like, Scott was going I've never gave anyone one, you know. And er Hannah's going we started off the conversation where was the perviest you've ever had one I mean, knowing that I didn't have one, ever had one before and that was Mark , feeble attempt that lasted about ten minutes I think ! And I was really upset about that as you can imagine! But like erm what was I saying? Oh yeah so I was going what's the perviest place? I was thinking, you know, Scotts bound to have some pervy ones off Mandy ! But like er, and he was going oh I've never had one except for like, this Franny bloke!. Girls don't do it to boys as much as boys do it to girls though do they? No I know. That is really sick though! I certainly don't think so anyway. I think that's really disgusting, they look silly! I think it looks awful on boys! I mean, it looks bad enough on girls but I mean I know, it looks really cheap doesn't it? Yeah. Sort of like eh eh eh eh eh! But I didn't that's why it's I'm a big slag! that's why I Ha! I didn't tell anybody. Yeah. At school. You didn't tell anyone like, except Joe then told Stuart,Mr ! Really funny! But I ca , honestly when Pete phoned me up and like, I was getting so worried! And he's going Yeah but I swear you should have heard Pete mouthing off at Joe! I know. And because like, he didn't even know about the love bites! Cos Scott goes to him cos, we were talking about flipping biting other people's nipples or something ! He did, he And he did actually bite me! Yeah. That's right He did. he's really strange Well though! it killed ! It really Yeah. hurt! Well Scott does that I screamed! all the time! Like he doesn't think he doing it but it really doesn't it? I mean like keeh God me I went I went God! I actually went arghhh You've gotta to! Yeah. And and like then, like them two they're being , and they goes what's up? I goes, nothing! Nothing! You know, and it really hurt! Yeah. But I mean but Joe said they were actual bite marks and it wasn't Yeah she did. there wasn't actually bite marks, but he did bite me, but Yeah. they was like love bite marks. Mm. And I think, so Pete wasn't right and she wasn't right either. Yeah. But But like, he was really sounding off at Joe! And like, I mean he didn't know about that! And Scott goes oh it's a good job it's a good he didn't give her a love bite ! And Pete's gone what, I didn't did I? And like, everyone was just sat there going, oh my God drool on the floor man, you don't even know! I've only got three! But oh God! I mean they weren't very bad or anything but Mm. I mean Jesus Christ! You've gotta be sad not to notice have you? I mean he's got about ! Ah, but is he coming on Saturday? hasn't he? He's Oh I asked him You've asked ? I asked him whether he was and Yeah. he said that he wa he didn't know, he was either coming now or was going to Tramps . Yeah. Cos someone said last night they were going to Tramps but whether that was just like, they might be going to Tramps or what. This bra's too small, I'll have to get a new one! But I think he'll probably go to Tramps to be quite honest. I think Mm. prob , I think Susan might be going actually. Mm. And if it's a toss up between me and Susan it's,yeah Susan ! Yeah. You know? But I I I can't believe it actually, I mean and no, no offense to you because you know I do , you know I don't mean this whatever No. offensively. Mm. But like he goes on on and on, don't he about how wonderful Susan is and then you know he gets drunk and that's it isn't it? But like, he even said it, he said to me when I was drunk and I, and it pissed me off a little bit actually cos like, he goes to me you know like I I was saying about it and he goes erm well she was the one who wanted it all casual and everything, and I said oh yeah. And he goes he goes yeah well, I do it because she does it! Oh that's nice isn't it ! And I'll, I thought, I goes Go on then! I'll I'll Flattery's the way to a girl's heart! No, I go, I I went, oh thanks very much! I don't think he heard me! Yeah. Under your breath, something. Yeah and I went oh thanks! Well I didn't actually but he was arsed I just said oh thanks very much! Like Yeah. and went and sat in the corner of the bathroom and went, scowled at him for a bit! Yeah. But you know. Oh gee I dunno!hey? I don't know! I wasn't even gonna tell Scott I hadn't come on! But then he kept going on about how brilliant your party was gonna be and everything and I'm sat there thinking let's face it, if I come on between you know, because like, it would have been alright cos I'd be finished like, today or tomorrow and then it would have been like nice and ready for the party! Mm. How do you do! But like er But erm like, I'm putting out of bounds signs on my mum's and brother's. Yeah. Well I said to I mean I said to Scott You can you come in here. I said to Scott look As long as I'm not in here. Yeah. Three people ! I said, I said to Scott Or you can go in the bathrooms. like ooh can we have it in bath please? Cos you know what I mean that's as you know I, I can't even lie in a bath any more, it's not fair ! Fiona was saying to me today at school, oh Emma can I have a bit of your height please? I was thinking, oh yeah I'll just chop my legs off at the knee shall I? It's really bad But now! like everyone's jealo ,a , like everyone's jealous of me at school and I wouldn't say I'm over tall! But No. like you know, loads of people are smaller than me! Mm. I'm, I, you know I'm going off You know with one of the tallest! Yeah, you know those heeled shoes I've got? I mean the heels have gotta be what two inches? Mm. When I've got them on I'm taller than my dad! Can you believe that, I'm taller than my dad! That is disgusting! If I grow any more I'm just gonna flipping start chopping bits off myself! Stop eating ! Yeah, but eating doesn't make any difference anyway does it? I'd rather eat loads and at least then I won't look so lanky! Mm. But actually I'm com quite quite pleased with my body at the moment, my legs are still a bit skinny but apart from that I'm doing okay I think? I like my legs. Yeah. You have you've got a really nice body anyway! Actually, me and Joe were saying the other day, like ever erm who was it, someone said something about people being fat or whatever and someone's gone, oh yeah, like Helena, you know jokingly and erm and me and Joe both turned round and said yeah but she's not fat though is she, she's like more you're more wide aren't you? Yeah , I'm not, I'm not fat that way, I'm like that way. You're sort , you're like your mum aren't you, you're like, wide? Mhm. But like I don't know, I don't think there's anything wrong with it, I mean But like, like, I mean Andy, Andy goes yeah, like, cos we were talking about that, and he goes, yeah you've got childbearing hips! Yeah. He goes, unlike my sister who's got house-bearing hips ! And I go, no it's not in that Yeah, I went Shhh! ! Yeah, I felt, I feel a bit sorry for Hannah actually cos I do, I mean actually she's alright, but If she wa , if she wasn't Hannah inside, she's got a dead nice body you know! She's Mm. a really nice shape and everything! Yeah. She's got nice hair. She eats But, she's got a bit dodgy eyes though! Mm. She is a bit! Yeah. Oh,. I feel really sorry for her actually cos I'm I know if I had it I'd just feel really awful if I had BO Yeah I know! Same as me. That's why I always hate that people tell me! Like, even if it meant writing them anonymous note, you know ! And like, you always think to yourself like you always think to yourself, yeah, you know I would tell someone and if it's what you would I can't! . You know I would, I'd just sort of If it was someone really close to me Yeah. I would. I've told I'd say my brother he had it before. And I have told my brother. But like, your brother's alright, cos you go, oh you smelly bastard! ! I go God, oh your breath stinks can't you? Mine probably does actually. But it don't matter if you offend him does it? No. Really? But like, I could say to you, you know ah, you know, how are yo , you know, and I'd probably make a joke out of it! God you stink! I might say Yeah oh you run out of deodorant or something, you know! But you can't sort of turn round to Hannah and say Hannah, you've got B O ! I know it's like You smell ! it's like Fiona at school right he ,o , Vicky and Iona were having this ma , major crisis about whether to tell her she's got B O? Cos I don't know whether it's BO , but she just smells to quite honest! And she's a really nice person, right, she's a bit portly Mm. like, she's coloured right, but she's a bit portly and she just smells to be quite honest! Mm. And she's got this smell,yo , it's her smell do you know Yeah. what I mean? And like you da , can't tell it, like just walking around or whatever, if you're sitting right next to her and she leans over you Mm. or when she's on the trampoline and you're Yeah. standing by the trampoline. Oh it's just horrific! And everyone just goes Yeah. You know, and it's It's like today at school really awful! there's this girl right, you know Lisa ? Yeah. Remember she was at Ricky's party Yeah. well we've got this thing against her now cos she's flirting with Ricky! Ricky and Lucy have finished by the way. Oh have they? Finally! Yeah. He, he was up town with this other girl, holding her hand walked past Lucy and smiled at her! That wa , that is sad! And wha Anyway Lisa 's been flirting badly with Ricky for ages! I mean everyone knows she fancies him, but like, she's been getting really flirty! So, like, we've got this thing about her, anyway, she was com and she was talking to Fiona today and she was stood next to me, and like in a way, I was laughing at her but I felt so sorry for her cos she really, really stunk! And like I wouldn't sa , she's not the sort of person who you'd think oh you know I mean like Oh you smell! yeah like, not being nasty but Hannah to look at her you think you'd think, oh you know she might sort of bit bit pongy! Mm. And like, Lisa 's like, you know so Yeah she's like, really clean cut isn't she? She's like anyone isn't she? She's like us sort of thing, you know? I mean, here's me saying smelly bum, you know ! Even, even, even no, but even more Radiation! than that, I mean I mean, I'm not being nasty but I mean look at our hairdo's! I mean we're not exactly , well I'm so worried about you know Yeah. how I look just at this second or anything! Yeah, but she does doesn't she? I know, but like she says, she's hair and everything isn't she? And all her make up and she got and she's really pretty really Yeah. isn't she? She is actually. Pete said she Pete said he'd give her one! And I said, oh God I wouldn't! And I to also admitted to him that I Have yo , have yo female. have you heard about the wallet fiasco? No. Oh yes, I did! Yes. Shall I bring it on Saturday? And I just went mm! Yeah. Ha! And I knew exactly what it was you they were talking about! What she was talking about! But do you know I went why? Why did I do that? Why am I Honestly, they don't care! Ah! But I knew exactly that he was talking about me and I thought what? And I goes but I had to, I had to, I goes why? And he goes well I've got some money in it! I've got my Visa card in it! I goes why Pete, really evilly! Mm. And he went and he went well what do you think? And I just went Jesus!! I was just so ooh! I just think, oh no what am I gonna do now? Well just tell him no. Unless you want to? Couldn't really leave it. I shouldn't imagine you No. would? No. Not really. But Clare is going like I told Clare about it. Is she coming to the party? I don't know. It depends really does , cos Joe said something about it depends if her boyfriend's got any money to come up or something or No, her boyfriend is up Yeah. but I think he's going home tomorrow. Is that Joe? I've no idea I'm just having a butchers. Having a butchers ay Having a butchers! Shall I turn the light off so you can see? No, it's okay I can see. Oh no! Shame of all shame, it's my brother and Steve and Sam across and I'm just staring out the window ! See if they wave back. Yes, my brother is waving back even though he's ! Oh! God! Oh! Why is he Why is he hanging round Steven again? He must be sad character, and that's the only reason why! Sad character! Erm I tell you what it's dead windy outside! It is Yeah. really, really windy! That's why I've got my hair like this! So have I. While I was taking the dog out. I put mine like this and that's why it hasn't stayed very well actually ! Do you wanna poster? What of? U 2. It's that one that used be up there. Is it black and white? Yeah. Yeah! If you don't want it? Yeah, have it! Thanks. I tell, I put I tell you where I put that where I used to have my erm my Berlin Wall poster. Oh you're taking that Which down? No I took it down cos like, it was behind the wardrobe wasn't it? And I've put it in the middle of the wall. It's been there ages, you have seen it. Oh yeah , yeah, yeah! I thought you meant you were moving it from there. No. I'll put that up there. That's great! Thanks. And then I can take that down, that flipping Marilyn Steven, the really ugly Just Seventeen model! Have you seen that one? I'm not joking, this must have had collars and right mm,! ! Oh dear! But erm oh what was I gonna say? oh they're all about Malcolm bless you! I couldn't believe Clare though! Horny bloke! Cos she goes erm she goes I told her right and she goes well you're going to aren't you? I goes what? She goes, she goes well you might say that now but when you actually get there you'll really want to. And er I goes you know, I was a bit, I was a bit shocked really, cos like Yeah. Clare's never told me that she'd done anything with Stuart. You er but when we were talking about this she told me that Yeah. he'd asked her to go on the pill. Yeah. And has she? No. She didn't want to! So she's not going to. But erm I'd, I don't but like chat to her cos she's, honestly she's such a nice person and like Mm. she's one of them people who she might be a little bit like hard to talk to at first Mm. but if you like, just go absolutely crazy like I do! Cos she's used to me being crazy ! Yeah. Like going ooh, ooh!, you know ! You know the way I do. The way you do like. And er ah, she'll be alright. Yeah, if I mean, if she comes in everyone'll be fine with her won't they? I mean flipping two sips of cider and I'm anybodys! Have me in the bathroom if she wants me! Ooh er look! But er Give her a blow job ! What do Did you catch that one ? Do think they'll work it out? Oh dear, so like I say I'd you know chat, you know chat away to her because I Yeah. think, cos she really wants to come but like Yeah. I mean She's she's such a swot it's unbelievable ! Dear oh me! I mean, she reckons I'm a swot, and I reckon she's a swot, you know! It's really funny! But you know me! I'll talk to anyone! That's what er Even a cassette recorder! Hello darling! But er Ah dear! I hope she does come actually cos like she's a real good laugh. Yeah. You know, she's really nice! And an anyway I wanna get her drunk and chop all her hair off so she's looks hideously ugly! I know, her hair's gorgeous isn't it? Mm. She's so pretty as well! Could not believe it! Rachel come up to me today, she's deadly serious, you know like lovely gorgeous ginger hair! No. You must of seen her round town. Well she's got the most gorgeous ginger hair! Really thick, quite long, bit longer than mine. I don't know her but It is really nice and like, she's the most gorgeous looking girl you've seen in your life! I've probably, I've probably seen her but I've, I've talked about her haven't I? Mm. About Rachel. I've heard the name. And erm come up to me today and she goes have you got any scissors? I goes no why? Oh it doesn't matter. She walked to Zeena, Zeena got any scissors? No why do you want them? So, oh it doesn't matter. Oh come on Rach , come on tell us, you know! She's going I wanna cut my hair. And she was deadly serious! I'm going, no you're not, don't be stupid! She gone, I've had enough of it, it's really getting me down! I thought, and she was really depressed about it! Oh my God! But like, Mr really really bad like maths teacher, he goes erm he goes to , she goes to him the other day oh you're only picking on me cos I got ginger hair! Yeah, you're right I am! And he was being really nasty! And I thought, I was thinking God that is really, really nasty that is! But like then er, she, she just turned round to him and she goes tell you what, I would really, really, love it if you woke up tomorrow and you had ginger hair, cos that'd really, really give you a dose of your own medicine! Then then er and he was going, oh don't be childish Rachel and all this! And, it's nothing to do with that! And she goes, oh yeah, as if you'd know! And like, he's really getting her down! Yeah. I feel really sorry for her cos her hair is gorgeous! I mean, I'd kill for hair that colour! I think if you've got a really nice colour ging , you can have, either have a hideous colour ginger Yeah. or a really, really nice! No, but she has got like, it's that it's dark ginger. Mm. Dark gingery-red, it's gorgeous! Like, it's not it's not ginger, it's sort of like auburn. Rusty. Rusty auburn. Mm. Oh it's gorgeous! It's really nice! Well you see that you see, she probably looks at it every day and thinks, oh hideous! Yeah. But, you see, you see it every day and think, ah that's so lovely! Ah that's so gorgeous! Yeah. But it's everybody, everyone thinks they're ugly don't they? I mean like Yeah. You don't want what you've got do you? No. I wake up every morning and think, oh my God it's that acne! Mm. Oh, got up. Oh look at my split ends! You know, my hair's so I can hardly see, oh boring! tell a lie I can see one spot on your face! That one. Oh alright then, two now you've pointed them out. Let's have at me today. I'm doing quite well actually, mine are clearing up a bit. Yeah, but you see, I'd look at you and I wouldn't even notice! One, two, three, four, only four! It's like, I look at you Two. and I would not even notice one spot! Not even the one in the middle of my forehead? No! I tell you what I noticed when you first walked in you got you got thick eyeliner on, that's what I noticed. Yeah. Before anything else. Thick eyeliner on the top of my eyes, I don't wear eyeliner on the bottom just in case you think I'm a tart! Oh dear! Oh I'm sad! I must be bad! You're talking to a tape recorder now Em ! I know. I've done it before! Oh gee, tomorrow right, mum has gone to me the other day oh, there's this woman at bridge she wants someone to baby-sit for her on Wednesday nights. Do want, do you wanna, you interested? And I said, yeah alright then, you know, fair enough. So she goes well she reckons it'll be a good idea if you went up to meet the little lad, he's only six, he's called Mark. I thought oh alright, fair enough. She's goes, oh she's gonna phone Thursday night, she phoned me tonight oh I'll pick you up at half four is that alright? I thought, yeah, fair enough she goes, we can go and pick him up from the child-minder and then er you can come for some tea and you'll be home by about half seven! Oh fucking hell! No way! I mean, cor blimey, I've never seen the woman or the kid before in my life! Mm. I mean, I don't mind going up to their house, sitting down having a cup of tea and biscuit Difficult situation or whatever! and saying oh yes, hello Mark! Are you going to read me a story and show me your bedroom? Oh goodo Right, well, better be off then,bye ! But like She must be really picky if she's doing that! I know! But mum said like she's she's divorced so sh , she's forty she's got like a six year old kid and the kid is really brainy! And I'm sort of thinking, oh my God, modern woman! Mm. Modern woman with modern brainy kid! And that she's got And thinking oh my God this kid's gonna be better than me! Yeah, she's got this gentleman friend. Oh yeah. He takes her out and spoils her rotten like! And she wanted me to baby-sit last, like, last no, what day is it today? Thursday. Mm. Yeah , tonight. And erm but like, she wasn't gonna be back till quarter past eleven! I mean, I don't mind that but you know what my mum's like? So er I wouldn't do it in the week. I mean, I'd mean I'd do it, in a week Yeah, that's what , that's what she said, the woman going well I suppose that's a bit late in the week really, she's got school the next day? And mum just goes, yeah. She goes, well I didn't know if you'd wanna do it so I just said that. And you know er but she goes like, she's like, like she said to me, once you've done it once she'll expect you to do it again, and again! And like, it's alright say like, once every so often but like once or twice a week or whatever in, like staying out late, cos that means I wouldn't be back till like, quarter to twelve! And get ready for bed It's too much , yeah! it's too much isn't it? But like erm my mum was saying, you know she's like she's got a, definitely got a good job and like, the kids really sort of You get, are you alright? Comfortable? Yeah. sh , he's really sort of like, dead brainy and goes to the child-minder and goes to school and whatever! But like erm she said like, he's a really good kid. Well Mm. I mean well I thought to myself, God what a life! I mean, I know it's not her fault but like, every Wednesday she has all the people from the college bridge go to her house to play bridge. I mean the kid's Poor kid! just sat there on the sofa! I mean, okay, he goes to bed about, what, eight o'clock or whatever? But like, I mean God, do you know I'd really hate that! I mean, I used to hate it with like having flipping anyone come up to our house when I was little! Yeah. I remember, I remember once Apparently his mum's hardly there! Because the baby-sitter she's got at the moment right she said she doesn't mind doing Mondays, Tuesdays and Fridays as well as the weekends but she doesn't wanna do every day each week. Ma , how much does she go out? I mean, God, the poor kid I feel really sorry for him! Yeah! I mean ooh! That's why she's asked me to do it, but like I said to mum you know, I'm not gonna say to her, oh yeah I'll do it whenever you want, I'll say like they're gonna do this extra course on Wednesday nights and she said, like unless she could get a baby-sitter she couldn't go which is the reason I'm doing it. So like Just say you'll do it Wednesday night. Yeah say I can do it Wednesday nights, apart from that, you know it's too bad sort of thing! So I think I'm gonna change my nights this, of staying in to either Mo , Monday and Wednesday or Tuesday and Wednesday something like that. I don't know really! But like, like erm that'd be quite good because if I go to someone else 's house like, you don't wanna be sort of like, messing about with all, all the stuff, you haven't got anything to mess about with, do your hair or whatever can you? No. Mess around with your make up. So I can get loads of homework done and erm like I can count that as one of my nights in. Mm. So that'll be quite useful I reckon really as well as getting a bit of money. Well, oh my mum's having such a fit about like on our er, exam leads like er she goes to me this morning, like my da , her and my dad were talking about it she is saying, and she'll do it! Cos me Yeah. and my, my, me and my brother are gonna be off at the same time Yeah. like be doing his A levels and that she's saying that she's gonna take both of our stereos, lock them in the, lock them in the shed all day, take Mm. the keys with her and take the er, plug off the telly so we've got nothing to occupy us! And she's serious as well! Mm. Because we're both such weak willed people, honestly! Same as me. I mean, I've got a, I've got a French homework that was due in today told Mrs I'd left my book at home, I accidentally bought the wrong book! So she goes, I want it first thing tomorrow morning, and I mean like this is talking like, we're talking major here! Mm. And like I started doing it, I'll read it out in English I started writing it in French came to a word I didn't know and thought ah leave it! And I've left it now! Mm. So like I'll go in, half nine I'll get a drink, you know sit down, look out the window, see if Scott's in, phone him up if he is say helloee darling! Ah, erm By the way I'm not pregnant ! God this subject keeps coming up doesn't it? I'm gonna Oh! get dead bored now! Whoever it is that's listening to our interesting conversation! Don't you reckon that'd be dead boring though, I mean I mean , I know, but like, I thought I bet they're looking forward to this tape ! Yeah but like think about it, first, I mean the first couple of tapes of people like saying oh yeah, so then we had sex, and then we gave him a blow job! Yeah but I mean And then he licked me out while we're on the phone! Oh God ! Emma, you sound so crude! But I mean The twelfth of the third ninety two. ninety two. Well done dear! What time did you start recording this side of the tape? Twenty five past nine. Twenty five past! God! They're big tapes aren't they? I thought it was only supposed to be forty five minutes long? Nine twenty five P M ready. Ready. This is gonna get really tedious after a bit isn't it? I know, it's gonna be totally boring isn't it? Er chatting Chatting with friends at home! with friend. I wonder who's gonna go through all these tapes? there. It doesn't say anywhere doesn't it? Is it gonna be University students or Hopefully ! By the way, I think you're sexy! I hope you're not female? I don't mind if you're female at all! I'm not, I'm not, I'm not , I'm not quite like that! I am! Er who spoke first? I can't remember! I think it was me. No it wasn't it was me cos I was saying that if yo , if your pen didn't work. Oh, Emma. Oh, I was the one saying if you're pen doesn't work and my name's Emma dearest! Er student. Student. Anyway, what was I gonna say? Oh yeah, I reckon all grannies are gonna be taping this they're the only with loads of spare time, we're just doing this for a laugh! Mm. But I mean It's gonna be dead boring though isn't it? Listening to them complaining about the usual stuff! Yeah so I reckon whoever's doing this I, I bet whoever gets this tape, I bet there's fighting over this tape! I bet there is cos no one else will talk Yeah. BJ's or anything! Are you listening to that, then? Bj's ! Oh God! I think that's . Did a did erm anyone tell you about James's dad? James? You know James ? His dad's called his dad's called Barry. Yeah. You must know James 's dad. The one we were hiding from at the fair. Oh! Remember him? No. He goes, well anyway, he's this like, really really mad bloke! He goes to er, Ian and like, Ian's gone to him, oh hello Mr , you know, and he's gone ooh, don't call me Mr , he's from Wales you see! He's not Welsh Ooh! or anything! Yeah, he is, he's Welsh. I wouldn't put on an accent because they're cha , they're they're trying to well never mind! Oh okay. Who cares! I'll put on my accent anyway. thinking I'm Welsh! He goes oh, don't call me Mr , call me B J! Ah no! And like, there's It is, yeah! And like, Ian was just, cos he's like Barry and Ian was just sort of stood there going oh my God, I'm gonna laugh! Ah Oh! did I tell you whe , when I went to the opticians? I've lost my Ah! shoes again! He was the most unbelievable person I've ever met in my life! Oh! Oh yes, he was wasn't he? Oh God! My brother went my brother went yesterday as well. Gotta have glasses? Well he could have some done. Yeah. Cos he, he couldn't read the bottom two lines. Oh yeah, that's good though, and I can't read the top two lines ! You know well what can you see with your left eye? Erm Erm H Nothing! Ha ha ha ! Oh! Ian's so funny! But erm yeah. I dunno where to take this next, shall I take it downstairs and yeah well, my half on this is stinted. quite interesting. Cos we all just sit there and watch telly and we don't talk! We had a, we had a really goo , it's a pity you weren't here earlier actually cos we had a stu , a nice conversation about politics. Oh, my dad kept going shhh I'm trying to watch the football all the time! And I was cos I had, I had a massive argument with Vicky about party politics! Right, cos she's such a selfish conservative bitch ! Mm. Yeah. Going well, I don't care why should we have to pay for all those poor people! That can't keep jobs! Oh I put down Clive! Oh he really makes me mad he does! Me an , me and Natalie were having a real bad go at him! Sort of going just cos daddy'll sort you out then! Yeah! Oh God! Oh he drives me mad sometimes! It like sh , I couldn't believe it she was she's so conservative! She sat there going well why should we have to pay for poor people who can't be bothered to get jobs, they're so lazy! Oh yeah, like there's a load of And I like, I jobs going round! Honestly, Yeah! I was going absolutely eppy This is in the middle of class, I was going eppy And she goes and I goes, oh yes just cos daddy's got a very nice car and you live in Inkborough like this! Yeah. And I was hon , I just went so mad! And everyone in the whole class Julian Julian Mm. was going to me, hey Helena calm down! And I was going No I won't calm down ! And I was screaming by this time and Miss goes oh be quiet everybody! Mm, yes you're hard, I'm really scared! Ma , it's like, it's like my dad this morning he woke me up by pulling me up by the hair, bashing my face into the pillow a couple of times, I just looked at, then go, and I looked at him Got a comb anywhere? Comb? Even if it's one of those tremmy pretend combs you get with a Barbie doll, oh this'll do! Don't know what it is, but it'll do! Hope you haven't brushed anything pervy with this one! Pubes! Oh yes I'm always brushing my pubes! Oh, I know ! How did you know? . That's my pu , pube comb! Well you've gotta admit, it does look it does look like one of them sort of things ! Have you, have you seen what pubes,? Yeah ! Oh goodo ! Erm, anyway, what was I saying? Oh yeah, and I just looked up from the pillow and went oh, watch me shiver! In a very sarcastic voice ! Oh did you see erm Mary No. Whitehouse the other day? No, I missed it , but your get on with it anyway! Ooh wasn't that weird it sprays at once! I like this, it smells nice! I think it smells awful actually! Ah, I think it smells really nice! Naomi always wears that. can smell ! Well at least I ain't got B O! This is disgusting! I did this top bottom up so that my dad wouldn't call me a tart as I walked out the house and I forgot to undo it again! You're getting a bit prudish aren't you? I know ! Ah dear! You know,touch my pen! Was there a minute ago wasn't it? Ah, here it is! Oh it's on the floor! Emma the hero finds it again! Oh dear! Love can I say ! What time you gotta be in? I, I haven't actually got to be in at any time except I did say I'd be in at half nine. Oh! Oh, it's half nine now! Oh ha! Slap my thigh! You look really worried though Emma! You look like you're about to rush home! Oh dear I must rush home because it's half past nine and I'm going to get told off Ah ! for being late! I've just missed Red Dwarf! Oh never mind! Oh oh oh Go ho od! What? Missed Red Dwarf! Never mind you see mister tape recorder person. They're coming in Ah ! I'm suffering a lot though! You've caused us to miss Red Dwarf! Cos we just enjoy talking to you so much! Because you're such an interesting person! I will do up my button again! So you're dad won't call you a tart! Actually, he shouldn't be in. Listen, listen to your Oh well! lucky you're lucky, I'm not pregnant penny. Yeah ! Right at the end of somewhere. Lucky I'm not pregnant powder case! Oh dear! Well are you going to leave that on? No I'm turn it back. Gonna switch it off? Cheerio then darling! Cheerio then man! Oh dear! Bye! Sam shut up! So this means I gotta walk home all on my little own-some? Pardon? This means I gotta walk home all on my own-some? Yeah, well it'll be erm at little bit light anyway won't it? What? It'll be light. Light? Mm. Suppose. It won't be dark! Yeah mum, I do know what light means ! Actually! What have you today? What lessons? Mm. Graphics er maths, science english and R E. What did you miss the other day? When you was off? . Oh, a few other things. I've caught, I've caught up on most of it I've got to copy up some maths but I'll, I'll borrow someone's book this weekend. Cos I won't have any homework cos I did that homework last night. What, for the weekend? What? No, but she won't give you two sets of homework other. What the , maths homework you mean? Yeah. So I'll be able to borrow somebody's book and copy that. It's only algebra anyway! The stuff I was doing last night. Shouldn't be too bad. Is Joanne and Emma coming to sleep on Saturday night? Yeah. Where are you going to sleep? Down there in the front room. Well, we might as well I mean it's just easiest place really. And that yo can keep the dog and cat upstairs a bit can't we? If he'll go. If he'll go. He won't be very happy if everybody's down here and he's up there! Will he? It's . I know, but he always sits on Emma and ! Don't she like it? used to it. I mean, I don't mind it if he comes and sits by me well they're not used to him you see. They're not used to little Sammy! Shush up! wimps. What? Wimps. No wimps? Oh dear! I nearly forgot how old you are when I was putting you in the book. I put forty two. I'm not quite forty two yet! Soon! I will be. But not yet! Pardon me boy da doo dee doo doo doo . Are you going into town then tomorrow? Or To not? Tomorrow? Yeah. Dunno. Mm,! Haven't made up my mind yet ! I never make up my mind until about What about? Half twelve tonight. What about Shrimpy, have they got over his tantrums? Oh I think so. He, he's just he picks someone to have a go at! So he's been having at Yeah. Pete has he? He's been having a go at Pete. And it's a bit, it's a bit nasty of him really cos when, like, all this thing was with Emma and everything Pete was the one that was really nice to him! Mm. He's always taking it out on them I noticed! Yeah. What we having for tea? Chicken. I can see it's chicken ! Chicken what? Chicken and er rice. Well, what we normally have you know, in the sauce and that. Yeah. I wouldn't know the posh name! Chicken chasseur. If you like! Emma was the happiest I've seen her in about two weeks! She was er she said her brother wasn't getting on didn't she? Yeah. When she came to the door and I I didn't know whether to invite her in or not like I went come in and,an she like, looked at me and I goes,don't ask ! Well it wouldn't matter if they were ? What? It wasn't it was a bit strange, a bit naughty! Well erm I think it's dead interesting actually! Oh! something in a bit of sex. Different things, and I remember the woman came round the other day about drinking whisky. On a Sunday she came! Mind you, I mean, we got no whisky anyway so I said she's looking for somebody who erm drinks at erm a spot of whisky. I says, oh sorry you've come we don't drink whisky. She says, not even at Christmas? I says no. Shouldn't. Which we don't do we? We don't go in for spirits though do we? No. She wanted to see dad. She should have gone to see Uncle Alan he's and alcy er She'll go and drink shri er, not drink Shrimpy! Er go and see Shrimpy. Does he drink like that? He's always drinking whisky! Ha! That'll rot his innards then! Aha. Oh Dave let me! Got a letter David? Have you got a letter? Yeah. Can I open this one? No! Have you got two letters? Yeah, but they're, they're both from the same place though mum. What is it from? Is it from Nottingham? Cheltenham. Not Bristol then? Is it? Oh it is Apparently that's all that's from there actually. There, in that that Picasse or whatever it's called! Oh dear! Rejected. This is nothing! Oh, it is as well! Rejected? Yeah. Oh! Oh that's a shame! That's the only one you've had! Yeah. Oh! Oh! That's where you wanted to go, Woburn. Oh well! Never mind! Never mind! Try and get in Bristol somewhere. Make it weird is that what No this is from you said? No this is from er Sunderland. The fourteenth place B A! from at least two G C S E's G C E O level. You get a B A from that mum! B A honours degree, yeah. Flipping hell! Mm! Bit of yes? My brother a B A, yes! And I spent ages ! That's a shame! Wonder why that was? Probably got too many people. Probably filled the course already. Yeah. And it is a popular place. Probably thought hoh oh, we're not having him! Oh no! Hoh oh no! A from Lincoln No ! Can't have that! Fourteen points. That's a shame weren't it? Yeah but Mind you, Bristol's popular isn't it? Yeah. I'll just wait to see what turns up. Don't that dog ever shut up! Oh shut up! Alright! I do to. Oh! Well that's a disappointing isn't it? Yeah, well you ca You're bound to get in one of them somewhere. But all the poly's have accepted me still Who? haven't heard from Bristol Bristol , Bristol Yeah. and what's that one what came? What? This one? Er, fourteen points erm About three D's this. No. The two er Ah yes, you see, that's Sunderland I mean that's up in the James goes there. back country isn't it? But, the accommodation will be cheaper. Yes I know, but it's such a long way to get up there!isn't it? I mean, he's not exactly travelling everyday is he? Well no, but you still got to pay to get up there and get back on ! See what I mean. I told you it'd be chicken chasseur! Erh You're dead disappointed aren't you mum ? I liked that one!. Ha ha ha ! Mind you wou , oh you couldn't! What? Well I mean if, if it was full and they didn't all get the Oh yeah, if erm You know, qualifications for it, like wha , what would happen then? Well on the a lot of places like, they advertise in papers and stuff for the places that are still open, places that are still open. Like, and you phone up and you can get in. Well I mean, it's not necessarily to say that you know, that they Mm. are all going to get it is it? No. I knew that one as soon as I saw that it was from that is was a reject one. Well you got that other one from didn't you? I thought what was that er South , Southampton or Portsmouth or something? And Portsmouth Portsmouth wa was straight from Picasse but Picasse don't necessarily send out just depends on whether the poly's send out to them as well. But Oh! they sent me erm or sent me a load a load of material with it. I really wish that they wouldn't do that though! Oh dear! Pasties! You, you're worried about it than David is! Well, it would've been handy wouldn't it?some of them. Are you making as much noise as possible? Yeah. I can't make up all the time . Mind you, Bristol, I mean that's not far. That No. you know, if you And York isn't. I suppose it's a mile round trip. Twenty five pound up on the train, return! Return. So thirty five. That's really clear ! as well! ! God this dog is ! Well I hope Bristol accept me now. Why who have you got? You got Sam! Just York and Aberystwyth. Hull. Oh, Aberystwyth yeah. But this is this is one of the most popular ones in the country so What Nottingham? Yeah. It's got very high arts intake as well. Very high? Arts intake. Oh! Like you know English, sociology and all that. Oh! So that'll be why it's full then? Yeah. You were you were late in sending it weren't you? And that's because you were going to go . you might be, get a place. If you buck your ideas up! And get a with that in. What's that supposed to mean? Dog! What's that supposed to mean? You better get your exams! Yeah. But buck your ideas up? Buck your ideas up? Yeah. I mean sort yourself out and But I am sorted out! Get on with it! Instead of messing about! But mum, he don't do much messing about does he? I didn't ask you! He was messing about yesterday morning! What? Look at him I'm . Give him a loaning It's only for three months mum! Well When is it? Next week. Next week. Gizzmo keeps trying to persuade me to go with her but I don't really want to. No I shouldn't worry Cos er , she's gotta go cos her brother's in it. shouldn't you? I thought about asking actually. Her brother's Knuckles oh,he's huge! He's only about five foot ! A B and a C that is. Yeah, but A, it says a two I mean, if you get three then you can get Nottingham couldn't Yeah. you? Yeah. Well three C's must be over the points then. Right Er Not like that feller yesterday said that really they can er they can refuse if you get Well yeah! a di difference of their point stipulation Oh, yeah. and er their gra , grade stipulation so even if you got three A's they can still refuse you. He said that he said it doesn't happen in York, but it has happened in some places you know. I could understand them refusing you if they'd asked for say, a B in english and C in something else Yes. and you got D in English and D in so , although it may not be the point, or C. Yes. Because then you you wouldn't certainly up, be up to the standard would you? In that particular No. Mm. er particular thing. But I suppose espec , like if you got really really good grades you'd be different to the group. You know, say if they wanted to get you three C's and you got three A's shut up Sam! You could be lot a lot different to the group. The higher standard? Yeah. Mm. Which might make it more difficult to teach. Yeah, I suppose it would. True! Would it make an effect? Mm. I suppose I, I better go and get hair done. Yes, you'd better had, it's twenty How are you then chicken? Okey doke Groovy! Seen Emma? Well, this morning. Oh! Is that alright? Yes. Oh! Didn't walk home with me cos I had to go I was and wa , was going to the other side. How come the had the school photo in it? Was it? Mu mine ! I've got a bad habit of shouting like that today. Like in science today I goes oh for God! ! What ? I got into I'll show you What? I'm only saying thank you. I know! This is really good! Doo doo and I took the best . Are we going up to York tonight? Yeah. We've got, we're going, ooh together now. But as long as we've got can't enjoy myself, can't even have a fag, might as well have, not be going! Shouldn't have to worry cos she's Shhh! shh, oh don't else a man might come in . Like, oh yeah I know he means ! And dad goes, I'm I think I might only just have orange juice! Besides , I mean I can't have a fag! I goes, can't I just have two on a Friday? No you can't!, might as well not bother going then mighten I! Cos anyway! Especially if you can't have a fag! Is she, you know, really bounced up about it? No, she just like, cos he's going down the club. From High School kids, you know? So I might make a trip to . Mm. He's just too daft, cos he won't even let her have two! She hasn't had any since Tuesday! No, she hasn't had any since Tuesday. She's doing well then? Mm. She did be , better than she did. Yeah, but dad'll . Ah! ah that's it, run back and tell everybody, run run! Ah, like she always does! Yeah well I don't want Gary , she's . She must be! Instead of going like quarter past, goes oh go down, let's get boring now, yeah yeah! I said, oh go a bit later then, I goes cos I'll make it quarter past seven I'm not sitting round for half an hour, not like kiddos Oh dear! Cos cos my mum and dad won't be able to get that cos my dad's working. Well the outing's in that area the next day. Ha!stay, stay, stay with ah haaa ! Oh, had an exciting date at school today then? No. I rushed last night, I did two of my geographies I did one of them this dinner time, and other he didn't ask for my book in! Couldn't believe it! Ha! Course, that was didn't want to come and she said oh they asked for it in so I just pretended I didn't I'd handed mine in and didn't say anything like, you know in ca like, cos I had to go and get them yesterday. .Flipping Johnnie is coming tomorrow! And his laugh! Tomorrow? Thought he was coming Sunday? No, tomorrow. Between two and four , cos I've got and do the papers tomorrow afternoon, they don't come till four, I do the papers about half four to half go out, you know quarter past five Still having over to me I'm going out tomorrow night though aren't you? Yeah, I'm coming down yours about half seven. So you won't see him anyway. Maybe I'll come nearer two. Mm. And then it'll look as if I've hardly been . about half seven . Is she pissed off ? We've gotta be going fairly early anyway. She goes to me, oh how you getting to well I was hoping like, you'd take me, she goes, oh yes? That's a surprise! And I goes will you? He goes yeah alright then. Gonna take us down The Square. Last night we were shopping, I wanted to go and get something cos I said to her right can you ? Can I spent all my money! Yeah. And he goes yeah alright then. What's wrong? I goes, can you go and get and some beers, yeah cos otherwise, I should, you know you said lend us a pound, he goes yeah, I goes well you can yo he goes not a pound, one pound four P! I goes, well have . He goes yeah alright then. So he got me last nights, we're gonna have to go tomorrow so we'll have to go tonight now, gotta tell ! Speak up a bit! What for? Gotta get near the microphone! Oh, heard about that! You're not putting that on! Why not? Joe, don't switch it off! Yeah, well it's embarrassing! No, it isn't! Should of heard what me and Emma were talking about last night ! What? . Anyway And everything else! Is that all it is jus , that's how he give you? Yeah. Emma wants one. And all the tapes, and all the batteries and everything. Yeah. Anyway so we're adding up Just don't think about it, I've got used to it now you know, so I'm not shy. so you know he got something so he went, he went, he went, he went I think you give me, he goes, not one pound four, it's one pound it's gone up innit? I said oh yeah! One thirteen. So no! They're not! It was one it was one it was one eighteen, with the matches and everything so the matches Where from? the matches are,, the matches are eight P, they always have been. Oh yeah. And then sti they've gone up to one ten now for . Mm! So now he'll get all the drink tomorrow. are a bit worse he said you know get some women. I don't know whether Clare's coming or not. Oh, why not? Because well she's got a load of work to do, she's such a swot it's unbelievable! And her boyfriend's down and he's staying till Sunday. Well why can't he come round here? What else are they gonna do? I dunno but, she's gonna phone me up anyway. If she's coming, she's coming, if she's not, she's not! Mm. Oh good! But I'm not , I'm not bothered either way really! Yeah, I'm going to Pat's on Tuesday. What for? Well,Bozz at school had some free tickets the music's usually twot when you're given free tickets! On er, this something of Luxembourg, I dunno,so Oh! Duke of Luxembourg. Some crappy thing, you know! About . No. Some crappy music thing! Yeah.. Anyway, so I think our well drama teacher might be in that! Well, he's given me a ticket and he's gonna give , loads of us going, there's about ten of us! So we'll go, gonna go there for about seven, it starts at half seven come home that night. Bit of doss you know! Oh! Well we're get You got up town about seven I'll see if Bozz's mum can take us and Cathy's dad can bring us back cos dad's at work. You know, we can walk round town a bit, you know and ahem! Yeah,that's , have another Yes,, yes, that's right. Don't tear my shirt, oh sorry ! I like that. I get a real erm I've gotta take the dog out. Right. Look at my cold sores! Ta They're not, they're not too bad actually. They are! They're massive! I've stuck a load of perfume on them! I've run out of bloody cold sore lotion haven't I? What's this all in aid of anyway? It's a survey. You taking ? You're not taking it to my house! Why not? No way! Why? No way! Why not? No way! Why? Cos . No way you're taking it to my house! I'll tell you to get knotted! It's my house, you've got no permission! Did you Well we're not gonna be doing anything! Well like, upstairs! Well I'm not gonna take it round, why? It's only gonna downstairs in the living room! . Right I'll, I'll ju ju I'll just pretend I'm listening to it. I'll take the things with me. I'll just pretend I'm listening to it and I'll just put it on the side and just the switch the thing on they'll never know the difference. The answer is So is he paying you? About twenty five pound. Do you? You kidding me or what? No. Why didn't he come to my house for? Oh! Honestly? Yeah! And how long you gotta do it for? A week. Barry's so mad! How many tapes you got? Twenty. No way, man! I wanna do it! Tell him to come to my house next time! Twenty five quid for doing that! Trust you to in! You don't have to fill all the tapes either! Trust you lot to come up . He just, he just wants to go into my house. Trust you to be number one! You cow! Aha! That isn't fair! I want money, I've, you re get blooming all that money a blooming week anyway, don't you! It's only a voucher from Marks and Sparks. Oh. Twenty five pounds worth. What you gonna get at? Dunno,something for my mum . Just for starters I should think. Na , ahh! Can't talk now I gotta stinging armpits! What you at er you know that razor I've got? Well I thought, well I can't be bothered to get , so I got it and I went chee chee! Yeah, I sprayed my arms yesterday and I went takes all the ski , like top layer of skin off Yeah. I was thinking, God, did it sting this morning? Well, I'm kee , keep forgetting every so often and Mm. like it stings a bit. You ought to get like erm Soft and Gentle it doesn't sting. It's not that though, it's cos you're not supposed to use it under your eyes, it's a flipping face shaver! Oh, no, but I mean, it don't make any difference! Yeah You but I like that but if you use that Soft and Gentle it doesn't hurt anyway. Do you know what Shrimpy's decided to buy me for my birthday? No. Immac to do my back of my neck! I said, you do it, you don't, no way are you getting whisky from France! Oh ! Wasn't me , best impressed! So it is funny! It wasn't funny! And all he kept doing was twisting my arm last night, and my leg bummer! Ahhh ! No don't wanna put my name down! You've gotta have name, goes on the tape, you big girl! I thought she said it was erm Emma said that it was It's anonymous. Well who's in that! That's not very anonymous is it ? Yeah, but thi this, right just gets shoved with the tapes. Like, they don't know who it is i it's not, after they've taken it away it's no connection to me whatsoever, they don't where I'm Do that. from at all. Yeah, but you've got my name down there! What, what shall I put your accent, as Redditch? Mm. You put Redditch for whoever that was. Emma? Yeah. Who else put in, what you? What's that say at the bottom bit? Friend no . I'm not , put no friend of yours in that box! Hello darling, Is that tape six? I'm on tape six am I? No. No, you're on, you're on that's only tape one side B. Oh! That's all I've got onto so far! You're, you're the sixth person on the side. Yeah, well you weren't here were you! I don't wanna do it anyway! Me and Emma used up a whole side yesterday just us two talking! I thought you weren't coming out last night? I wasn't! She came round here! Tut ha ! Here's me, farting around with bloody Shrimpy and Andrew! Da doo doo doo . Ah, I was so angry , I was, he had my arm right, I forced, pushed him back it was, like, behind my back so I lent back thinking oh he'll give me his arms then anyway old flipping hag came in didn't she! And I went, ha ha, just turn over the cassette! She called me an old snout , flipping thing is right, like thing like the noise that I've Yeah. I was going making like the sound was down he's singing this song and then he went and Pam comes in, and she, I mean how comes then he knows her? God, who is it the the what's it, paediatric or whatever it was? Somebody like that, you know some doctor Is at the door! Who the bloody hell was that she goes? I went out, come back in to ask and there was Shrimpy, me and Andrew, me and Andrew come in I left the door open Cav goes shut the door! I said, oh is Pat coming in? He said, I don't bloody care! I went ha ha! You stupid cow! I really ache! Go on! I hate Right. Pam! I'm scared now! Is it dark out! Yeah. Good! Right, do you wanna ah, walk go and take the dog? It's not my turn, it's David's To the shops. turn! Yeah. Why can't David do it! Because, because, I'm going out! Oh please Helena will you take him for me? Oh, he's such a waster, he's unbelievable! Come on then, I'll take it outside with me. Give it to Sam in his mouth ! Yeah you should have told me I would have bought them out with me if you'd said. I didn't realise did I! Shall we have one? Sam, come on boy! will you? Don't be too big!shhh! Ah dear! Be, he's being all really nice to me at moment, he's really creeping to me! Yeah, well he isn't being nice to me! Hasn't he? No! Twisting my arm, twisting my leg! Telling me I'm a stupid bitch and all this lot! Fucking turds and all ! Wait for the dog. I feel a right Bozo oh, the dog's having a shit! Ah It was really funny though! Like, me and Emma last night, honestly the first, about five minutes, like we were all, both going mm, yeah, er, ah, and then we just thought oh fuck this for an idea ! And we just said absolutely anything! We was talking about the love bite Pete gave me and everything! Yeah. Said, like she thought she was pregnant! Like me, I was a, how did she ge has she? Must have done! Ergh ahh So when was this then? Oh didn't you know? What, has she done it with Scott? What? You on about Emma here? Yeah. She's pregnant ? Yeah. Didn't you know? She'd done it with Scott. No, when did she do it with Scott? Didn't you know she thought she was pregnant? No. Oh piss! Ah, don't say anything! I thought, cos you said down there you said in my house you said something about being pregnant. No I never! Yes you did! No I never! Oh I thought you knew? Have they? I've really put my foot in it now haven't I? No,whe , when did she do it with Scott then? I don't know but they must of done it sometime. It weren't when, the other when we got all pissed? No, but I mean Why's she think she's pregnant then? I mean, didn't they use anything for Yeah! But she well she didn't, I mean she didn't tell me the intimate details or anything I don't even know whether she has, she wo , she might have ju ge , been getting over dramatic or something! But she but her period was a week and half late and she started well panicking! Yeah, well she And you know , you know when we thought, yeah well she'd, she'd just come on when she came down to my house and she was really, really, really in a happy mood! And er you know, you know when we saw them two walking Yeah. the other day? That was what she was upset about she thought, oh dear,Scotty's a going to be a daddy ! Fucking hell,! I hope she hadn't done it that Saturday when we all were outside and we watching She might not have done it, done it but like she might have like like yeah. Cos you never know, I mean Andrew wipe spunk all over somebody, you know! Yeah, I I should think she like she's done some done naughty things Well we all do though and, yeah If she's given him a blow job, I mean But I mean, she's probably done something like that and she's just got over dramatic about it! Guess what she's said she's gonna write to go on the pill! Did she? Well not to me ! She did and she says, she goes, I wanna go on the pill while I've got the courage! But I don't think I can rely on myself to take them everyday! If you was there you could take them, too pissed I should think! Probably! Like a hangover the next day! fucking Emma in a minute! But don't say anything cos I don't know! Cos she, she said it to me cos she was on such a high you see cos she'd just come on, didn't you see her last night? No I didn't because you Oh! stayed and Andy's and we'd just gone over to the shops and . But er yeah. But, you see, she was on a real pardon me! A real big high about it, she'll probably tell you. But she I know! probably didn't wanna tell you in front of Hannah and everything ! Well she rushed up today , she hugged me and ha hugged Hannah , and then Yeah, well that's it's so happy about. hu hugged er Hannah ! Can you just imagine though, hugging Andrew, his face! Oh my God! Oh no! She said , I live at , I'm the best! Oh she thought I was pregnant. Where's the dog gone ? Wait He's down the bottom. Wait here, I'll catch up with him. Ah there he is! But er but er yeah, so but like, she's been saying to me cos she's been thinking about whether she is or not she er she's been like like everywhere there's babys and prams and everywhe , on the telly and everything,do you know what I mean ? It's been really bad actually and er Yeah, but unless she'd done it with him she wouldn't be panicking that much! No. I bet she has. I mean, and she really known him for six months you know? Yeah. Ah dear! So that was a bit of a giggle! So do you What? think Clare will come? I don't, I doubt it, I don't think so. Ah ah oh! Pity, Emma's decided she's bringing a camera now and she reckons he bringing his! And I said no fucking way you'll get any pictures of me having a bang! And Andrew goes oh, is this going to be let Joanne everybody with a picture! I've Well it's gonna be really bad because I'm gonna be doing this and taking pictures! You're not doing it at the party? Yeah! Oh God I'll be so pissed! Well so! Wahhh I'll do it, I'll do it You'll be doing it while we're going to sleep. No way, when we all lie down fucking hell are you, no! Picking up all the juicy gossip around here, you're not doing that then! No, I won't do it then I'll do it I'll do it in the early evening when no one 's too drunk. Then a bit later, but not well don't do it when we are gonna go to sleep because cos we end ups tal talking about who's dad's got the biggest plonker! Is your, is your dog still a virgin? I know. Like, you know what, my dog's still a virgin ! Virgin ! I always say, you're drunk that night. So they all go and all. Are they? Tonight and tomorrow. Oh Jesus! Andy's getting eight cans of Strongbow three for tonight and five for tomorrow. I said I'd bottle of wine off my dad just for us three, that's just for us three. Oh yeah, of course! You know. And then er we'll have that . You gotta ask your dad, remember, for a bottle. No, cos a I won't be drinking it anyway it's only gonna you and Emma that's drinking it! Yes, I know! You just ask him for one! You're not gonna have a bottle each! I had a bottle and I was absolutely blabbing! And I threw up, that's how strong it is Joe! Oh I'll have my dad's then, she can have your dad's. No,ha , I mean, Joe like, you won't be able to handle a bottle each on top of all that other stuff! Yeah, I wannoo Ya ha , Joanne you're going to die of alcohol poisoning ! You're only selfish! I'm sure you're mum and dad have got a lot! Oh John, he's not that close for God's sake! Flipping cold ! Ooh it's not Come here Sam! It's alright leave it. Oh God's it cold! That much perfume I've put on my cold sores,. He's gone.. So will I ! And then you're dead if you undo them there ! But Er Oh we'll forget he's ! You're so nasty for getting his bit ! What? He's a miserable sod! Well he couldn't help being a miserable sod,he looks a right miserable sod ! No! He's not a miserable sod. He probably just forgot. I'll bring my matches when I like take the dog in I'll nip upstairs and say I've gotta get something and I'll just grab my matches out of there in case he's lost them or something! Like he probably would do! In my book I'm gonna have to write down Mark, and put in brackets all the way through he's called Shrimpy. m Out in a minute,changed. Quick What? Put a tape on It's like M I five or something in here . Don't, no not not that I don't believe you I swear the tape. What? We ain't got a tape. I can fill it in for . It's a different tape number. I know. Er fill that in. Oh sugar, I've gotta start filling all these in now. Do you think that's right? Thirteenth of the third ninety two. What time? Five past seven. Seven. Redditch eh eh eh eh Visiting friends. Who spoke first? Me wasn't it? Yeah. I don't have to fill it in again. Once I've filled it in once in the book Mm. right they know who it is. Yeah you only need to write their details on the first page in which they appear. Go on then, put it back. otherwise. Do you think I ought to fill Andy in quickly? He'll be the next in. Yeah he will won't he? This lot'll be Shrimp and he don't matter. Andy insurance clerk age? Nineteen. Nineteen now Redditch He doesn't call himself a clerk though. what?friend I'll tell him you're a friend, he won't believe that. Oh thanks. According to you I've got no friends. Exactly. Oh thanks Jo. What's the point in lying? can't find my pocket . Helen nobody's coming. What? I can't get it in my pocket. Do you want a piece of pasta? You can't Alright And! What you done? I across the to get some and ended on my bollocks. Oh that's nice. That's the last time I No it isn't. You do it all the time. That that smarts. That's not gonna do much. Do you want a Band-Aid? I've got a split sac. I've got one testicle down here somewhere and the other one's still embedded in bedroom. What d what did you land on?bed? Was it you who went bloody hell? One of those cab yeah it was one of those It was really loud. it was one of those cabin beds. And erm the rim was like about that thin. Mm. And that split my Mm. Nice. Not nice. Ha!ha. Mm? for a long time. This special what was it called again? It says on it somewhere doesn't it? Dynamike Dynamike how embarrassing, is that. You go smack, straight on them. Yeah then I get a drill with a wire brush on it and go bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz Out. Okay. Yes alright then. That was my mother's suggestion for a bog roll Oh. sit on a drill with a wire brush on it. Works wonders. Nice. Scratch. Erm what drink you getting anyway? I was gonna get well I'm contemplating but I'm either getting four cans of Strongbow and a bottle or just eight cans of Strongbow. For tomorrow? Or today? Well some are for tonight as well. Well you know what'll happen if you get the that'll all be gone by tonight. No that'll go, that'll go right through tomorrow. Oh. Yeah, that bppppprrrrrr Is that all you're having for tomorrow? What? to myself Oh. Oh, right. There, you've recovered now. er can. Ugh I don't know how you can drink the stuff, it's ugh. Strongbow? Mm. It's n it's not ugh. It's cider. It's ugh. I prefer Tesco's own myself. Oh I'm not buying that, cos it's not strong enough for me . Oh you man. It depends if you get the strong stuff you dipstick. I don't care what you do with my dipstick. But I am Don't drinking lots of cider. don't you go to band rehearsal any more? I thought you'd be at band last night. Well I was supposed to be but erm every single time they arrange it and they either tell me the wrong da well they told me the wrong day last week cos, they told me Tuesd they told me it was Thursday when it, when it was actually Tuesday when I was getting pissed at Scott's house so erm it was too late by then. Then they said erm there's one on Sunday, oh no there isn't. And this What do you mean we didn't get pissed at Scott's at all. and this Didn't we? Yes we did. It was birthday last Tuesday. Was it? Oh we weren't pissed. Merry. You two were, I wasn't. I was not was I? I was . A little bit. I wasn't . I was . You couldn't see. I couldn't. I was not at all. I could just about hear Carter in the far reaches of my mind. But erm He was I was fine. Course Helena Mrs Hold My Drink, not that I get a hangover every single time or anything. Hangovers I don't! You do! What is a hangover? Not after that I didn't. What's a hangover? Shut up Andy else you'll get a punch in the face. I'm just going to I bought my long sleeved Carter top today. What? Oh yeah. Why aren't you wearing it? I had to buy another long sleev no I well it's, it's a special purchase for tomorrow. What's this? Oh thanks And my sl , my long sleeved Carter top. For my ace party. Go and get it then. No. We Well I want, I wanna wear my and I can't have it till my birthday. I'm gonna be really annoying, I'm gonna cut my jeans off half way down the shin. No you're not! No. I am. You're not cos you're gonna look a twat. Well I am a twat. Can, can I can I feel your leg ? Go on please? Easy access And. What do you want? You've got a choi you've got a choice of three. I'll have them all. Bit tired then? Yeah well I didn't get up, didn't get up Where's Shrimpy? didn't get up until seven. Oh. Course Shrimpy said I'm gonna go and get you some matches, so what does he forget? You've got it Matches. I remembered everything else I wanted. Oh it was so funny at work today, Greg fell off his chair. Packet of condoms fell out of his pocket And they were ripped . Ah no he was, he, he wouldn't sit on his chair cos he'd just called me an arsehole and I goes oh sit down Greg! I said sit down Gregory and shut up. So he went to sit down but his chair weren't there. All I saw were this pair of legs sticking over the desk and him going aaaaagh! And his condoms And he got up and then one of the girls said hi Greg dropped your johnnies. I've never seen anyone go so red in my life. How old's he? Twenty three. He's married. Well, so? He got married si what three months ago. Maybe he doesn't want any children yet. He we he went redder than that. redder than that? Is that your mum happy? I in the bath. I walked in I, I had to lock the door with the penny, walked in, got the bog roll Do you realize you haven't called for Emma? Well done. Oh what cos that'll be alright won't it? It'll be alright. Scott come round and she'll meet us down here. Yeah. Er? Oh well Well when er when them two, when them lot go and get the stuff Up above the streets and houses rainbow's flying high. Everyone can see them flying in the sk oh did you see the rainbow today? No. It was about what, four o'clock I went over Tesco's Did I see the rainbow? I was in it. It was abs shut up, it was absolutely massive. What, in the rain? In the rain, yes. Absolutely massive. So was I. Absolutely massive it was. Cos I had to walk home from school today. By Tesco's it was it was coming out the field. goes let's Ah! rush over to see if we can find the pot of gold. Well Andy is erm general errand boy for at the moment Mm. and What's your actual job? What's my job title? Yeah. Is claims sorry insurance claims correspondent. Insurance clerk. No, not clerk. Oh. I'm not a clerk thank you. No I'm a claim correspondent. Well if someone asks you what we, what you do I deal with claims. Oh. deal with insurance claims. I say whether or not we're gonna pay them. Which is a fairly important job but I get paid shit. So there. It's only to five thousand pound And. Eh? It's only up to five thousand pound. Only what? You only You can only do claims to five thousand pound can't you? Ten thousand. That's a Ha it's gone up! No it ain't. It was, it's five thousand without manager authorization. How much do you get paid a year? Just to be nosy like, you know. Six thousand. Is that all? So you can give away more than they, they gi than they pay you ? For what I do my, my pay is shit. Pardon ? Really. I'd tell them where to go. Well Shrimpy's on twice as much as I am. You can't tell anything when you've Well all he got a car. and anyway all he does is spring inspect springs. And people wonder why I've got no money. Mm. People why, wonder why I've got no money. Become a spring inspector. Oh that sounds really good. Oh god, is Hannah singing? Tell her to sit on that and swivel three times. Better make sure she wiped her arse properly first. oh, oh dear oh dear . What ? Come here. What ? You dumb fat cow. Don't be so nasty to your mum. Oh dear oh dear What? when he finds out. He'll probably try and wrestle it away from me but It's no good quibbling. I wanna be famous. I'll ask, I'll I'll ask h I'll tell him afterwards I wanna be famous he'll say. but it'll sound really awful if I I tell him now. Tell him at the end of the week. Mm. If he don't like it I can record over it but No you won't. I know you. You're nasty-pasty aren't you? No if he, if he really doesn't like it then I'll oh dear just tell him the truth. There it is, there it is. Mm mm Oh that's nice. Ugh it's horrible. Mm What's it got, about thirty something? Yeah. Why? Oh Jo ! It's only the name of the album Well I didn't know! You thick cow. I'm not a Carter fan myself. You thick cow. They look like they're on something. Yeah, so? They probably are . They're on the stage for singing. Yeah but, right, they're on drugs I reckon. So? So Andy doesn't like any such thing do you And? I don't. So you shouldn't, you shouldn't But I think the music's good. Don't, don't put that on very loud, I've got a bit of a headache. You'll have a lot of headache by the time I've finished. What? You'll have a lot of a headache by the time I've finished. Now would I? I don't play music loud. There you go. Thank you. I couldn't have done that myself. I'm only helping. If you don't want any help just Alright, okay, fair enough, alright? Thank you. You can say it as loud as you like Jo. I know, I don't want to say it as loud as I like. Go on, you shout it. open the door. There we are there's no-one in there. It wasn't exactly a joke was it now Andy? It didn't make anybody laugh because it was funny You both laughed when I shut the door. No it's just cos you're a twat Yes it's vagina. We know. See the tufts of hair spring out and the clitoris bulge. Shut up. No I know but It should be quite What are you looking at him like that for? What? That to you dunnit? What? No. listen to it. Yeah, it's dynamic. Bit louder cos it's to drown you out. Andy Andy Andy Andy How could you? What? How could I what? What, bought that? What? Have I what? Well one, how could you have bought that and two, how could you let her drone through it like that? Well Oh. I bought that cos it's good. Nobody wants to listen to it,. Well you did. I could imagine It's fun. get hours of pleasure out of this. What are you complaining about? You would have gone out and bought it. No I wouldn't. Well Dynamike Mm? She plays on yours all the time about her, your Dynamike Mm. Mm mm mm Mm. If it wasn't f he's going to be dead. if it wasn't for your Dynamike I don't know what I'd do with myself of an evening. in the front actually. Ah Carrots. With wings. With wings. Oh really? Mm. Alright Clare Rayner. Oh by the way, if Clare comes tomorrow she's bringing her boyfriend. Is she? Mm. Right on. Long as he wears a kilt. I wanna meet him actually, I'm not wearing a kilt What? What? I said I'm not wearing a kilt. I don't love you any more. Alright I love you then you can . Alright we'll we'll arm wrestle we'll arm wrestle No cos I can ar you can arm wrestle, I can't. That's your for being such a all day. Come on home Laura got done for skiving yesterday, they all went to Pam's house. Skived Tuesday Wednesday Thursday off. Lisa got caught Her mum saw her and she Laura and erm to get caught. That's mine. though. Mrs wasn't there. How many ? What ? Don't! Give it here . Hey it's on. What? I know it's on. I'm recording you. Are you? Yeah. Er maybe, hold that a minute Jo. Maybe I'd better tell you what this is all about. She's getting a twenty five pound voucher for doing this from Marks and Spencers. What? Not just you, everybody. Twenty five pound voucher for what? Oh yeah! You looked shocked there And, when you spotted that I thought oh my god. Oh that's my things, it's alright. But don't you say anything to anybody else cos What? Yeah I've got, I've got all your right ups and everything. Oh yeah! E even before you came home I switched it on. Oh I was just What? Get out. I could sue you for that. I know. No. No she'd record over it if she didn't No but you see I couldn't tell you at the start because you'd sound, you wouldn't have said half the things you did say. I would. And you've gotta, you've gotta like talk totally normally you see. never normal Yeah on there No but you normal for you I wanna hear it. I wanna hear it. What, what is it Yeah but in aid of? You've go you've gone in the little book Oh! Except you've gone in as ins insurance clerk cos we couldn't, we couldn't decide what you were. Oh! That's really gonna cock things up innit? An insurance clerk yeah Yeah you've got all the you know a condom dropped out of his pocket and everything Oh good. I bet you feel ace. Don't tell Shrimpy, we Did I say on there? Yeah. Insurance er No do no it's it's it's totally that's me. it's erm it's totally anonymous anyway. But like they're just doing a survey Where did you get that from? It's a bloke come round. A bloke came round and gave it all me. And I've got Cos they got to her house first cheat I've gotta tape all my conversations for a week. And like Keep it and run off. What? No I like tomorrow night Oh yeah! I, I had to sign a bit of paper. We'll be arseholed. I know. It's gonna be so funny. Ah no! You were shocked. You should have seen your face! No I looked at it, I goes oh it's recording. I thought oh, I thought it was like one of your tapes and I'd pressed record and it had started recording over it. Sshh Hello Em. Alright Emma? He just found out. Found out about what? Nothing Aha Oh well how are you doing then Scott my friend? Oh alright, just about. Now did you see it last night? What? No. Me and Emma were talking You know I'm babysitting on Wednesdays? upstairs for ages and we You taped it? No. I can't believe it, I've been slagging off for the three weeks this is crap, this is really naff. Last night So you babysit Wednesday ? Yeah. remember I've got the equivalent of high graphic B S E? She's going a-raving in a red red and white checked dress with a big floppy hat with pigtails and this little glove puppet penguin called Mr Flipper Every Wednesday is it Emm? Yeah. and it was so stupid . Bridge. Playing bridge for some . Eh? Well erm someone fell off a chair to It was you again? what? It was you again was it? No it wasn't me Oh by the way Scott Don't tell him. Alright. Nothing. Don't tell him hey! Come on, don't tell him he's being recorded on tape, you know Oh! Oh dumb! Don't tell him. Thank you. We all are. Oh good job I wasn't No if you know you don't talk normally. He's just been telling us about how this bloke's condoms dropped out of his pocket. Yeah I said Oh it's this thing? What? Oh this bloody thing that you've been Yeah. ah. Except Emma has already told . talking about condoms and me throwing up and all this. They've got me down as being, you know,insurance clerk. No a Oh yes! no it's Andrew. Andrew. Andrew. Andrew insurance clerk Cos it's ano i cos it's anonymous It's anonymous. Anonymous it is. Anonymous Cos on once it leaves me they don't know who it is. They just get the book and they get all the tapes. Well I told them what it is now, Insurance P L C All the claims come in . But you're not, you're not allowed to talk to it see, you've got to talk to each other. Claims to be the pervert. Yeah. Like we were last night. You're not suppose except we did . We Yeah Well that's really taking the whole thing seriously. The only, see the first thing I noticed the first thing I noticed about you when you walked in was you'd got, you'd got that's on the top of my eyes by the way, not the bottom because of our something. I was listening to it t oh I've got a letter for you . Because I was writing it in R E Yeah, you owe me a letter. Who? You wrote me a letter Thursday as well. Cos went up there on purpose Emma. Cos I phoned you Emma? and you said you had a letter. She purposely went up A letter. to get the matches out the bedroom. What did she do? You guessed it Whoops. Why do I owe you a letter? You wrote me a letter. Thursday. Yeah I know but I weren't gonna give it you. They're strange aren't they? Well why do you think we kept turning the music down?? No it's just that you come in my house, fine. You can record my voice, fine but you turn me music down Yeah . you're That's why I did it see? That's why we kept turning it down. Oh sorry. Hey! Won't do it again. You'll kill Shrimpy. Talk amongst yourselves. No I fancy Bungle. I was watching Rainbow earlier. Did you see the rainbow over Tesco's? No. Yeah we had one. Bung Bungle had his sun hat on he was dead sexy you should have seen it. One missing It were really good it were. And talking of did you hear my song? My one Yeah please please don't under a tree people are making the rubber johnnies Oh god, no not this. red ones, yellow ones take your pick it all depends on the length of your dick or prick . Or prick was my little ending. Cos I thought I was cool You'll have to speak up now everybody. I watched the end of the video. On one thing that really drives me mad about Carter. Why does he rest his nose on the microphone? Yeah. Our house She thought you said knobs. why does he rest his knob on the microphone ? Perhaps his name's No, he wasn't on about knobs, on about Oh. Gonna say yeah. Gonna say you know my mum put that bloody card up don't you? What card? The one you sent me. Oh did she? The card . I just left all my cards in a pile that night cos I was a bit Were you? And erm and the ne oh oh about two days later I'm looking at them oh on the mantelpiece I better I can't move it cos it'll be conspicuous by it's absence Did she laugh? I dunno, she just put it up. I thought it was good. Mr bulge. Yeah. So no-one saw Mr Bean's I Wanna Be Elected? You know on er on Monday? he goes oh shit yeah of course 8 This is a quiet bit, just talk amongst yourselves. Don't talk to it because it ma it sounds stu I was listening to us this morning. Piss on my grave! I was just going I was listen I was listening You , I'll urinate. I was listening to the end bit, I was saying what were we about at the end. Is, is Shrimpy coming or what? Yeah he is. let's, let's shake this. Yeah. I can hear your penny shaking in there ha ha ha and I was listening oh Jesus . What's the matter? That could be him now. Yippee. Andrew. Oh, wasn't I supposed to say anything? Andrew. What ? I'll finish the horror tape one night. Turn over. We're on to tape two now? Yeah we're on to tape two cos this A side of tape two. Oh I've lost a quid! Have you? Yeah I ate it. Where have you dropped it? You paid, you paid me with it. Well it was in here And now it's not? when I came down earlier and now it's er gone. Shrimpy Whoops. Er no Whoops whoops quarter past six. excuse me but a ninety pound deal sort of like knocked the stuffing out of me for Yeah but you were supposed to put it in last night, not this morning. Can I have them now ? I haven't got it. You haven't got them? Where are they? Probably at home, I got bollocksed for having them last night as well. Why? said you're not starting fires again are you? I said oh yeah watch me start a fire. Oh boots. Can you get me some of them boots? Yeah. Pardon? Can you get it? I haven't had one yet Oh ch I'm getting What? I don't know what's happening. I'm just gonna get Ah! That could have been painful that could you bitch. Ow! It could have been. That ninety pound bill was painful, I can tell you that much. What ninety pound bill for what? I hit my car on the kerb. The wheel had a bulge in it, I went to have it fixed and the I'm alright thank you. Good. I don't believe that. What? You've only had that car a fortnight and you've already done about five hundred about four hundred and fifty pound worth of damage. Who's fault is it? Oh no look it was the invisible man driving the car. It's all my fault. You had that Allegro Three hundred and fifty pounds worth. not my fault, it was the, the other driver's fault. Well it was. Yes, exactly. I was just Right we're going out, come on. Are we? Yes. Our house And how are you Andy? You're looking jolly. Yes, good. Did you switch it on last night? You know when it was going really weird? Yeah, then I turned it off. What did you switch it on for? To record. Cos everybody was talking. Don't tomorrow. What you writing? Only a letter. Ah ah aha! Well it's got my name in it! So? So? Yeah so, you don't need to know do you? Oh thanks. And I'm only putting Helena and Emma were talking to each other on the bus. That's all I've put. Well just tell him I'm not getting involved with it, alright? I know, he never said you was. You tell him. I told him I'm not getting, I'm not even seeing him. And tell him no arguing tonight. You tell him! Alright. It's your party. Alright I will. I wonder if Pete will come tonight? Dunno. Sh when er when Emma told me that erm Richard said that they probably weren't going to Tramps I was, I was walking around going oh boo hoo boo hoo I'm so sad all the time going oh boo hoo boo hoo oh don't look at my letter. I saw you you crafty sod . And and er Scott kept going what you doing? I was going nothing, I'm just being sad. Boooo hoooo . It was really funny. Oh I was laughing all still dream of love oh dear. I'm so tired . That was I'm so tired. And who can say begin . responsibilities That's very nice. What? Bastards. Have you only just noticed? All the times I've played it, have you only just noticed? My mum hasn't even noticed yet. I were playing it really really loud this morning. I had mine on this morning and er but she was out anyway. My mum nearly said shit yesterday,a nervous breakdown. She goes er she goes ssshhhh no I'd better not say that since, seeing as you're in. I goes mum I've heard it all before! For goodness sake. I don't know what she thinks I am. You know, someone, you know? I'm not a flipping nun am I? I've just finished. Lovely I'm so pleased. for long are you? About five days. I was blinded What time are we gonna chuck them out tonight? Dunno. Half one? If you like, I'm not bothered. It's your party. I know it's ace. First time I've ever had a party. How do you spell disagreed? D, D I S A G A G R double E D. R E E D yeah. It was just the D that was wrong. Oh dear I'm really really really really really looking forward to it. Not that you can tell or anything. I can't get anything out in the crossword, I've only got thirst. First guardian citizen don't know. Heavenly. Don't know. How do you spell saw as in looked? What? Sa S A W. S A W? I can never remember. Oh I didn't know W H Smith's had been around for two hundred years. I thought it was twenty myself. Two hundred? It must be. can't be. Does it say on the bottom? No. But it must be mustn't it? Oh aye. What's that? Fifteen seventeen ninety two? Suppose so. Didn't think they had shops in them days. Oh yeah Jo. Only joking . Oh Two hours left, ha ha ha. Bye bye mummy and daddy. Watch me weep. cheek . Not cheek cheek but cheek as in cheek, you know? It's just spelt the same. How do you spell it? C H.. double E K. You can't spell anything you. I know, I'm crap at spelling, I'm sorry. But nobody's perfect. I know. I can spell long words, I can never spell short words. spell it . Have you seen my nail file? No. Can't find anything in this room, it's so messy. Scott then had the cheek to tell me What can I put, good luck? Yeah. Cheek to tell me good luck. Wish me good luck it should be. Got any Tippex? Please. Er no, just cross it out. No I wanna keep it neat. It's one of these important letters. Oh never mind it doesn't really matter. No in your bag . Is it? God you lazy sod. I'm gonna, I'm gonna get Scott tonight if he makes any comments and this fist is gonna go strop straight where it hurts. He's just got me mad now telling me to good luck. He really has, he's got me really aaaah! Oh, where's my nail file gone? God this Tippex stiff enough? Yeah. Andrew I said something about stiff right, and he goes what? I goes I didn't mean it like that. Can you un o can you undo it?turn it? Oh Give it here. Sounding very kinky. Oh not your teeth! That'll do now. I always get Ti ugh it's all over your face, Tippex. Is it? Oh never mind. He has got me annoyed now, he really has done. Oh dear yesterday meaning when you come Er think I'll put a bit of Beatles on. Oh no. Emma said I'm in a Beatles mood. I'm telling him all about it now, Emma said she doesn't need it What? Good luck. Oh. And I replied Shrimpy's fine aha nail file Shrimpy's fine. He phoned me this morning this morning and put and he's alright. Love love me do you know I love you You'll start writing that if you're not careful. What? Cos if I sing, when I'm doing my homework if I sing along to a tape or something I start writing the words down. You're weird then cos I don't. Anyway Oh. we left them Oh that's the letter Shrimpy se sent me. Oh right. Left them and said we left them and said He had such a go at me for showing it my mum. anyway we left them and and said Whoops. I said come to mine at four. Somebody new oh. Right, that's all my clothes put away. Scott makes love me do any comments tonight please me do he's getting it in the gones. You love Scott really. I don't. How do you spell I'm going you spell gones? G O N E G O N E S Gones that is. Gon gon double O? No cos you spell gonad G O N A D. G O? Just put gonads. That's, what's it? A A D S Yeah. Gonads. as he is an interfering what's the word when you say he thinks he's perfect and he's mister hard man? Big head? Interfering big head overprotect protect protective bastard. Oh you're not gonna start a massive argument tonight are you Jo? No. No, I'm just telling the truth what I think of him. Er although You're such a good singer. So? I don't care. So Helena wishes that there will be no arguments or slanging, slagging matches is it slanging or slagging off? Slanging. Slanging matches Don't worry there won't be, I'll just hit him. Won't be as after I've give him one he won't be able to move. Oh I'm looking forward to tonight so much now. So am I. Joanne please don't start a massive argument. I've give him one he won't be able to move let alone talk. your letters look nice and neat, mine are always scraggy, I can never understand them. Dear Helena, I don't really rea really know how to put this but I've had I'll have a go. I'm sorry about being in a mood on Saturday but I wasn't really in a mood with you. I'll now tol t no I know I told you that I was that I was feeling That, that's sorry for someone not Emma or he's done a sentence wrong there. one like that . Yeah. I care for Emma more than I can say but I also care for you and I'm really sorry if you were hurt. At the moment everyone has been talking about other people behind people's backs. I didn't tell you what Emma thought because I don't is that a blank page? Yeah. I don't think a person told I don't think a person told to apologize isn't rea really an apology so I think there must be a reason why you didn't and so told me on Sunday why you didn't . What a load of waffle. Oh I know, he just waffles. I was going to apologize for being stupid on Sunday when you both disappeared. Me and Andy looked all over, looked for both of you. Last night I had a few things on my mind to be able to apologize. I'm sorry and hope we can still be friends . I read it and I just went what! for a start and then I went, and then I went well he can't have looked around for us too well because we were walking by the side of the road. But yeah he probably come past no he probably went up there as we come down that corner by erm Ipsleigh and when they come back we'd probably gotten here by then. But we, I mean we were walking by the side of the road all the way up Greenlands Drive. What did I say, Scott then had the cheek to something me? Wish me, that was it wasn't it? Scott's not your best friend at the moment then? Oh you may not have, you may have gathered that like anyway. Erm enough enough of slagging slagging the little shit I think The little shit . shit stirrer. No, yes, shit ? I think that's, I think that's good actually stirrer, how do you spell stirrer? S T double R S T I double R E R. that was all. Stirrer and on to more important business, I think that sounds quite good actually, important right at the bottom of the page business drink Drink? Will you go with him and get it? Yeah. Drink erm can you, what time is it? Half one. Can you come to ? No. Oh I'm surprised. He's had his hair cut this morning, reckons on having it cut short, really short. I said don't Shrimp Ooh. I said it looks nice as it is and I don't know if he will or not, I forgot to ask him on the phone. Can you come to Helena's at seven forty five pardon me and er isn't it? I don't expect Scott and Emma will come in your car but I would just go with you if that's okay. Don't let anyone listen to this tape. Why? Cos it's got all me reading this out all about Scott hasn't it? Jo no-one listens to my tapes anyway. No I mean like you know? Emma and Scott? Yeah. Course I won't! Well er on their Walkman, on the earphones. Mm. Yeah yeah yeah go with you if that's okay. Helena reckons she will chuck you all out No I'll chu I tell you, I'll chuck him and Scott out if they both start. No I'm not on about that I'm on about lea chucking them out at one o'clock. Ah. Half one at one thirty AM -ish -ish one thirty AM-ish, there we go. depending on what we're doing. hold your hand No I'm only I'll ask him if he knows whether Pete's coming. coming tonight, not in a sperm way. not in a sperm way Sperm way? I'm being really funny there. Wasn't that funny? Ha ha. Oh it was hilarious. I thought it was quite good for me actually. You laughed so just shut up. It's such a feeling that my love I can't hide, I can't hide, I can't hide that my love I can't hide, I can't hide, I can't hide . Bring this down so we can listen to this. Yeah you got that something . Is, yeah you're a good old Beatles fan you are Jo. I want to get down and boogie, do that head bashing like we did at that gig. Oh Jo Wanna hold your hand, I wanna hold your hand, I wanna hold your hand mm mm mm mm mm mm I feel happy inside I feel happy inside feeling that my love I can't hide well blooming er what's his name, Julian won't disappear will he cos Liz isn't here. No. I'm not disappearing all night anyway. I'll put erm I'll tell you now shit, is that how you spell now? It's not it's know innit? What? That's know, now is N O W. I always do that. I always put K's in front of it,always forget. I think I've done it further actually. Well further behind actually. I can't hide, I can't hide I think I put new actually. and I'll kiss you tomorrow I'll miss you you tomorrow I'll miss you remember I'll aaaaaggghhh Always be true and then while I'm away while I'm away I'll write home every day I'll write alright!every day and I'll send all my loving to you and I'll send all my loving to you I knew that bit. I'll pretend that I'm kissing pretend that I'm kissing alright then the lips I am missing and your dreams will come true lips I am missing I like this one. Have to put this on tomorrow night if Pete ain't here. If Pete isn't here? I'm away write home every day There's still gonna be music on even if Pete can't . No this song I meant. loving to you What do you mean, if Pete isn't here? Lips that I'm missing. loving I will send to you have to tell him we're boogieing away. We are All my loving boo how do you spell boogieing? Is it B B double O Alright I know, I don't wanna s oh put, I'll put bogying I know me. boogieing away to bogying Yeah Beatles what was this one called?tomorrow I'll miss you Erm and remember I'll always be true it's erm oh damn! don't matter. Yeah boogieing away to the Beatles, they are ace. All my loving. Alright. And we are going to listen to them tonight. so tough shit So tough shit . Ooh an hour and a half I think that'll do. boo hoo bye mummy and daddy. God you're counting! I am. Helena is counting the minutes Until mummy and daddy ha ha are going. her mummy Mummy and daddy, ha ha ha, childish . and daddy love If you could have just seen yourself then, you leapt up till her mummy and daddy go buy you diamond ring my friend if it makes you feel alright I'd get you everything my friend if it makes you feel alright I don't care too much for money, money can't buy me love ring my friend if it makes you feel alright it's ace if you just sit down and listen to the old Beatles isn't it?feel alright I don't care too much for money, money can't be me love can't be me love say you love me too Anyway I may not have a lot to give but what I've got I'll give to you good luck I don't care too much for money, money can't buy me love, buy me love but you need it I don't everybody tells me so oh I'm such a good singer, ha ha ha anyway good luck you need it I don't no no no no no in fact don't worry about I wouldn't let anyone else find that letter if I were you. don't worry about Scott's how do you spell opin oh opinions, right O P I N I O N S I know. If my mum finds it I'm dead. Basically. Basically. love don't want that pound back squirm. Oh god piece of paper now. no diamond rings and I'll be satisfied that money just can't buy that money just can't buy I don't care too much for money money can't buy me love love love can't buy me love Oh dear oh dear oh me. It's only half well twenty to two and I'm blooming tired. I want to go to bed. God you're such a lazy have you got an envelope? No. Only cos then if we sent them nobody's gonna likely to spot it. Please, you must have an envelope somewhere. and I've been working and I've been working like a dog, it's been a hard day's night boom boom boom boom sleeping hope they don't come too early, although then we'll, I can just leave a note. that you do will make me feel alright ta. work all day money work all day to get your oh talk of the devil, Richard 's out there. Ha your lover! Oh I, I was so frightened yesterday when he came round. He were just made me laugh come on then I'll just come out with you, in the garden. And I come out he goes oh it's cold I'm just gonna get me coat, I'll be back in a minute Ooh he's dead creepy though isn't he? Yeah. He's alright though. I know he's alright but no problems. he kep I was laying there and I was just dropping off to sleep, I was oh it was , and he, in h in he waltzes oh I, he, I, he goes what you doing in here? I goes what the hell's it look like, I'm going to sleep! He goes he goes you can't go to sleep, and he sat on the edge of my bed for about quarter of an hour. Your bed. What do you mean your bed ? You was on Andrew's. Ooh ah Well I was only going to sleep Jo , I wasn't doing anything, I'm just tired. Oh I can't put it in there, it's not going to fit. things that you do will make me feel alright And like he just, he just sat there and it was, ooh it was so creepy. And like I thought I'm not gonna look up in case he goes for me or something, so I just kept my head in the pillow and pretended the light was blinding me oh ha ha cos when I get you alone what? in their car. What? home What's the matter? I don't think holding me tight tight Can see me tonight can't you? Ah you are going to be so arsed, it's going to be so funny. I won't be that bad, I won't have any ci er get one gotta get some, have to now cos we're not gonna have any. I doubt if I'm gonna get Phyllis is there. Phyllis and Johnnie . I call them but it's not, it's . Oh I've got a sore knee ooh It's no wonder! I've got fluid on it, it hurts. Ooh Well you go to sleep bef when they've gone, when they go out Yeah, have a bit of a kip for a bit can't I? I doubt if erm we'll be down here before she goes up to mine I don't reckon. When? Yeah she is, she's dropping in for after, after mum and dad go have the hand slapping and the yeah they've gone! Anyway I wanna have a bit of a talk to her. What about? Well about all this business with Shrimpy. Yeah but you, you must admit Shrimpy's trying his damn hardest. I, I, I mean I don't know, I wasn't there for half the things she was talking about last night, I mean I was upstairs for three quarters of an hour trying to go to sleep Yeah well I mean I was there and all they did was they didn't say anything to each other, in the same room, just acted totally normally but didn't say anything to each other . Shrimpy's trying his flipping nice to try and let this drop and just . We all know he still fancies her he's just trying to, you know keep it he's just trying to forget it and try and act as normal as possible with her and hopefully things will get back to be back to what, what they were. But flipping Scott, mister interferior Interferior ? Yeah interferer. Flipping no, it really annoys me that does. They're always going on about how much Shrimpy gets other people involved and can't stick up for himself aren't they? And bloody Scott runs rushing off and thinks he's mister hard man. What sort of things are you gonna say anyway? Well I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna say that Joanne's a bit worried about Shrimpy which is true Yeah. you know? And I'm just gonna say you know, I think it would be better if Scott didn't rush in like that, you know? I can understand why he did it, to be quite honest. Yeah but you say to her that they're always on about how s Shrimpy can't do anything for himself, and it's between Emma, it's not between it was al even Scott said to me at the beginning oh it's not between me, it's nothing to do with me, it's between Emma and Scott. Emma and Shrimpy. Emma and Shrimpy then. And erm he's been, then he rushes ahead full storm don't he? Mm. He shouldn't have done that really, he was a bit naughty. He,sh she ought to learn to sh she's, they was all on about how Shrimpy can't stick up for himself, and then flaming Emma does exactly the same but worse cos she gets Scott to do it for her. She's gonna have to one of these, I'm not being funny but she can't stick up for herself, that girl can't. It's about time she had the courage to do it, herself if she's in a strop. There's no point getting Scott, cos what's gonna happen when she finishes with Scott? She really Oh As you've probably gathered. oh I need your love babe What's this? yes I know it's true erm Where's the tape? hold me love me hold me love me you What was this af what was it after? What's just been on? hold me love me Eight Days What a Week this is love me ain't got nothing but love babe It's not on here, eight da oh yeah it is. eight days a week And I Love Her no I mean I Feel Fine, Ticket to Ride and Yesterday, oh yes! I like them. Help I need somebody that's on side B. Can we sing the song we're on! Yeah alright. We've got you all the time whoa whoa hold me I like Daytripper as well. love me Michelle Michelle Michelle Paperback Writer's good as well. Eleanor Rigby and Yellow submar I like all of them really. You like all of them don't you Jo Yeah. really? You make me laugh . When you're in a mood like this you're so excellent. Ooh ooh. I'm just excellent all the time, can't help it. No when you're in a strop you're not excellent. Yeah well you can't expect me to be perfect all the time. No yeah, just follow my example. Flipping heck! No. You was in a right moody the other day when I told you When? When? What? When? When you showed When I went a bit mad . Well, stupid fool. He isn't a stupid fool! Leave him alone. I'm sticking up for the little bless him. eight days a week Well he's done a lot for me really, hasn't he really? He takes me and picks me up from school and takes us where we wanna go you know, off to the shop, off to here, off to get some get some drink and takes us for a drive and Yeah I mean he's mm he's He's a do anything for anybody sort of person isn't he? Bless him. I've got a dead itchy back, oh! Ah! Hurt me boob. Hurt your boob ? Bashed it. I'm dreading tonight now. I've decided I don't think I can go to I thought you would g , oh I thought you were about to say I've decided I'm not coming. Oh I mean I don't want it to be a party where everybody goes off into different rooms, you know? Yeah. And there's about three in the middle who go right, this is a good song move my little finger, you know? Want to have it where everybody's together, boogieing Don't know whether Clare's coming or not yet. and having a laugh. Well you'd better phone her up. I said phone me if you're coming but don't bother if you're not so it looks like she's not. Oh well if she turns up does she know where you live? She does doesn't she? Well yeah, she can find it. What's this? I Feel Fine. Did Jason Donovan sing this, afterwards? No. Alright then. Oh Why? just gone the road with Bev! she said so Can we turn it up a bit? No cos it'll drown the microphone. Oh! I feel fine let me flare my nostrils. Unless we can turn it off for a bit. she said so No. No, why not? I'm in love with her and I feel fine afterwards it's only I'm so glad that she's my little girl she's so glad she's telling all the world that her baby buys her things you know so glad that she's my little girl she's so glad she's telling all the world bleagh he buys her diamond rings you know, she said so diamond rings you know, she said so I'm in love with her and I feel fine I feel fine flared nostrils I know, I am Penelope Keith ! Thank you! I don't think I look like Penelope Keith. In tune now. all the time Well I wish they'd stop changing the words on the tape, it's ridiculous. I feel fine I'm so glad that she's my little girl she's so glad she's telling all the world that th so glad that she's my little girl she's so glad she's telling all the world Turn it up a bit then. Got to tell him about the party. oh what you doing Jo? What? What you doing? Looking. Can't see er Oh piss! What? Oh quick, quick What? Oh there's two. I'm looking at magpies. Oh what's happened? Two Wh what for? What's up Hel? What? What's wrong? I just made the whole bed and then realized I'd put it on the wrong way. Erm fancy. Oh I don't know. I fancy some toast. You want some toast? Yeah. Loads and loads and loads of it. Loads and loads of toast? Can I have some of this meaty stuff ? Meaty stuff? Yeah. She said to Andrew Shut up Didn't get much done actually after you spewed on me. to have some toast, alright? Alright. Funnily enough I didn't feel like it afterwards. Yeah but you were feeling it before. That's what made him spew I reckon then. He got over excited. God I swear Er does it pop itself up or do you have to ? Yeah no it pops itself up. Oh I wondered what the bloody hell was going on, I really did. Ooh And then I realized my head hurts Oh there's that pouty Jehovah's Witness girly Oh yeah. Erm I think I think I ought to go and put them in the dryer a bit longer. Helena it's soaking, I've just felt it. by himself actually. Ooh feel your bum. Has the heating come on yet today? No. Is the heating on Emm do you know ? I'll have a look. Is there heat coming out anywhere? No it's not. No it hasn't. I was exp it's amazing the neighbours didn't come round actually cos we wasn't exactly quiet was we? You couldn't hear it outside. You could. You couldn't. No you could hear outside though. Could you? Mm. Alright then. Yeah but I don't know what they're on about anyway, they have erm wild parties all the time. Do they? Don't you remember when we snook out of Helena's living room to go and see Marky and that lot when they were, we were gonna, when we were gonna go over to Davy 's over their garden and they were still having a party? And it was flipping half past two in the morning or something. What? I don't remember that. You must remember that, when we were gonna go, we were gonna over the fences instead of going round the close. Oh oh yeah yeah yeah . When they were well they were all in the garden having a party. Oh yeah. They had all their lights on and everything? Yeah and I went no, maybe not. Oh it was so funny that was. Oh yeah Well I do I do can't remember that. You were Oh you must do. It was when you and David were shoved against the wall and you kept complaining. What? Comments like I've got a pole up my bum! Got a what up me bum? A po pole? Yeah. A pole. Nearly said polo then. Ooh baby! No I was not pushing the time have you got this, put the other side on Er I don't know what I've done here. Oh that'll do, they won't mind. What's the first one on this side Hell Bell? Er dunno. Your toast's done . Thank you darling. Who was the first person to speak? Want salad cream? Was it you Emm? Yeah. Salad cream? Oh I've entered you now, ha ha you're on. Oh I love Morrissey. I really really do. Hairdresser on Fire, Emma! My favourite. Eh? Is it ? That smells burnt. No it isn't, it always smells like that. I've got What happened to the heating in this place? It's like a squat. No heating, no I'm really hot. no coleslaw Hell you ugh dog you. Oh no no no,near me please. Oh leave him alone. I could be allergic to his hair you see. What? I might be allergic to dog hair. Yeah, might be. It's nothing to do with the fact that he stinks. Oh he doesn't stink. Okay, he just reeks mildly keeps doing that today. Just timing him. Well he, he's ten and, and collies don't usually live to be much older. Exceptions that prove every rule. Bet he'll live till he's twenty. Yeah,even older. Yeah, well that's life. What? Especially cos he smells. Oh. Well I'll be gone soon from this smelly household, so Hel do you want anything to eat? No thanks. What are you ready to move out as soon as possible? Well I'll have to stay for the next two years unless we go back to Lincoln. Cos if I go to the college I might be able to get a flat. Probably not, but depending on mummy and daddy live. You've gotta pay for it Hel though. Mm. for free you know. But you see if if we move back we'll be able to get a bigger house. And er I'll be able to have more room to myself then cos David won't be there anyway so I might be able to have one of the bedrooms as like a sitting room to myself or study or something. Shag palace. Shag palace ! Well it was really good in our old house cos we had, we had a front room and a back room and a kitchen all downstairs. And so the back room like, you could just go and sit in there on your own or whatever. But I was, I was a bit too young to turn it into a shag palace. A shag palace I'm gonna sneeze Shut up. Hairdresser on fire I love this, sing it Neither can I. Oh. Oh Oh s sad. What? Oh sorry don't you like burnt toast? Here you can have one of mine dear. I quite like burnt toast. I'd like to set the hairdresser on fire who did my mum's hair, it looks hideous. Oh I'm so sorry. Your mum likes it though doesn't she? No she's growing it now. Oh Alright thank you dear. Gonna have it rea no, well she's growing the back of it and having it permed and highlighted. Ooh Go on, look at me. What time's your little brother getting back? Lunch time. Where is he? Clare's. Shag palace again. No, her mum and dad are there. Ah. I think. abortion. Swap partners just got to close down armageddon, come armageddon, come armageddon come As long as her dad don't start singing. every day is like Sunday every day is silent and grey Cat's having a fight by the look of it. Yeah good old cat's having a Mum'll be dead chuffed, I've cleaned the toilet. I'll tell her as well. She'll be dead suspicious. I think I might I think I might just tell her actually. I won't tell her that he, he puked on your head else she'll wonder what you were doing. I mean Well, put it like this if you mention that everybody stayed here it'll get back to Jo's mum and dad. No it won't. It will. It will. It will. Don't breathe a word. I, I wouldn't say anything because I if my mum and dad find out I'm dead. You're dead! Okay then if mum and dad find out Scott's dead . Yeah because you slept in the same quilt as him, you Yeah well I'm not gonna tell them any gory details am I? Yeah but my mum and dad aren't stupid. Don't say anything. Just don't say anything. They won't know anyway, how they gonna find out who slept, nobody's found out so far. Yes, crossword time. Oh you're I mean what's the hassle there? Do you have stars on Sunday? What, in here? Yes, there are stars in here somewhere. Good. That sounds gross. God dog go away! You smell . I don't know where they are. I was only reading it off there. Oh here? When you find the stars Sam be quiet. Ha Don't say anything cos my mum'll kill me. Alright I won't say anything then. But if my mum asks like what the is I'm gonna tell her. What sick where? Well yeah you can tell her, tell her that Andy was sick all over her but you don't have to say he slept over. No. say he was sick well you can't see where he was sick anywhere anyway. It's all been cleaned up hasn't it? Ooh I feel much better now. I feel like dying. Does anybody want a chewing gum? It's been in my pocket. It's all nice and nice and bendy. Hel? Er oh go on then, force me. Scott? No thanks. Libra money is a major source of aggravation this week. Do not let love or sentiment cloud your judgement . Emma must tread gingerly this week or things will backfire on you. Circumstances beyond your control will pin you down until Friday . What's mine? Eh? What are you? Scorpio. How many page you got? Pluto in your own sign is making you more secretive even than usual. Life at home is a bit of a battlefield and work is sadly staging a go slow but you have survived worse difficulties before and this tough period is nearly over Ugly what are you? Aries. Aries Oh you've answered to my ugly name have you? Hairies Well it was just Hairies back . Sorry just started going Not until the sun enters your own sign on Friday will you feel that life is worth living. Love is so highly charged you want to be left in peace or left with Andrew's piece. Of sick of leftover baked beans. Oh that was really so I'll swear, I don't know what that was that, that clump that was in your hair but it was, oh god! It looked like an eye Jo it really did. I goes open the bathroom. I just walked down and I walked in and there was Scott with his top off, Emma nearly ha Emma half naked. I thought oh shit. Oh dear. God it all happens in your bathroom doesn't it? I know. It was like flipping the channel tunnel on the landing when me and Andy were there. Every three minutes people were going to ch I goes I don't believe this, I just don't fucking believe this. And he just kept It was like the channel tunnel? Well Where the hell did you get that from? Don't know, I just felt like saying it. Well that magazine's crap. Do you think they have a proper magazine in the Sunday Express? Like Clapham Junction then. There usually is one. There usually is one. It was like Clapham Junction in was . Every flipping two minutes they were coming to the toilet. Shrimp kept going up for some water, trod on Andrew. And I shit myself cos someone took a picture but I didn't take any. Oh there goes my dad. not likely to all take it. Having a fag as usual. Fag or a cigar? cigar. don't stop the car Erm when we get that photograph Shrimp Shrimpy took of me Andrew She's gonna take them and do them, get them done at the thing and then take it home. Well how many have you done anyway? About five. Who of? Of people down here. How many have you got left? There's only one gone. It's going to be ages then isn't it? You'd best, you'd best remember Better not be one of better not be one of me. Yeah there is. There is. There's that one of you kneeling down and me sort of Oh you're on your back. What? I was kneeling down and you had just fallen on the floor. Had I?oh good oh. That's a nice one, yeah. Emma just like sprawled on her back and Scott with his back to the camera obviously just about to undo his flies and pork her. Ah! I suppose it was good at the time that I wasn't kissing Andrew, otherwise I would have had a mouthful of sick. Oh gross! That would be so funny. Rather funny Not as funny as it actually happening and you getting covered in vomit but I mean it's still vaguely amusing. That was highly disgusting. Cheat. There was loads of No it's not cheating. at the time, he sort of went I thought hold on I can always tell if I'm gonna be sick. You get like, you get really really like hot and It's when the vomit comes out your mouth that does it isn't it? No but you've got like, you get loads and loads of phlegm in your mouth, and then it starts going all acid and you go I can always tell and then and then you get this feeling down here like something's rumbling then you go aaaaaaah I'm gonna be sick! Jul Julian got out in time. Yeah. That's like what I am. I can hold it down till I get to the toilet I can. He was far too pissed though, Andrew was. Julian really made me laugh though cos I he was just fine wasn't he? And he was just wandering round and then he just went bleugh and bombed in the garden I didn't see him actually bomb. I saw him like on the right, on the path and I goes I goes what you do I goes gonna be sick. He goes alright then. He goes Helena Julian's being sick. actually sick Mythology. What do you want? Beautiful youth chosen as cup bearer to Zeus is it ? How many letters you got, none? It's eight letters. Eight letters. Beautiful youth It's, how many times did he spew up the stairs? Julian? Couple of times. Once you tell me I'll know it. Well that's handy. Handy Andy. Is he really? I dunno Wouldn't know as he spewed on me. Zeus is Roman? No, Greek. I don't know how you get any enjoyment out of doing that. Why are you doing it? It's erm I like to stretch my mind. I don't having a chest expander. Is it nasty I don't think it's that either. No definitely not . No, No What are you barking at dog? Grrrrrrrrrrr smelly dog, ooh smelly dog. This is crap this Do you know what a flat, a top roof flat roofed houses you can't have a mortgage. Can't you You what? What? You're what? Because if they're flat, all the water collects on them and it's more likely to like, something's more likely to happen to it. So you can't have a full mortgage but they couldn't get a mortgage on it because it had a flat roof. I mean like ours has got a flat garage and everything but all of it is. It's a bit weird it's an old council house. That was funny the Decameron The Decameron? Ooh dear Is it Miss or Mrs ? Miss. Not surprising is it? No she's alright actually. Yeah. Gilbert and Sullivan Well try me on Gilbert and Sullivan. No I like these ones I can guess. How do you know him? Go on, Emma snatch that and read me the Gilbert and Sullivan clue. Cos she won't. Oh operas Gilbert and Micado Pirates of Penzance H M S Pinnacle I bet the only thing that dog smells when you've had vodka is vodka in your shit. No Vodka don't smell. He's his bum. No but it couldn't really have agreed with him much could it really? Well no maybe not but I should think he'd have a smelly vodka vodka shit. But unlike you and your cider shit No it did though, it really really smelt of cider. shit now. Go on Bob, play your mandolin, ding ding ding ding ding ding ding Oh erm god Belinda no it can't be Belinda, that's er What, what you talking about? Decameron. Oh. Go home green breath. be no fun in it. Why? Because it's cheating, you should know. I'm not cheating. Course you are. It's a general knowledge crossword. Yeah but it don't mean you have to go and look everything up. There's no fun in looking things up is there? Yes it is. I find it i interesting. Jeremiah Ugh ugh Could have told you that. No you couldn't. What's the clue then if it's Jeremiah? What, what ? The name of one of the dolls on Playschool. Oh that was Jemima. Jemima. that's what we could call her What No, Jemima. What the child, your baby? The girl, you couldn't call it we haven't agreed on the girl yet. I say I say Rhiannon. She says Meg. I like that What? What did you say? Rhiannon. Rhiannon. It's Welsh. It's shit isn't it? It's crap innit? that name. I like Irish names. No-one ever look look Yeah. you've got to be practical right I'm not calling it Sarah No, but when you go to children's parties or Helena no-one's going to be able to name,na er be able to write it are they? And when people send her christmas cards everyone's gonna spell it wrong and she's gonna be pissed off for the rest of her life. Do her good. Don't want a Welsh name,Irish gaelic names are the best. Yeah Irish gaelic names are the best, they're ace. Specially with the surname Erin, that's a nice name. Erin? Erin ? That sounds Welsh That sounds like sounds like what's it. Sounds like she's got a flipping long dress on and a straw hat. It sounds sounds like Emlyn Hughes. Emlyn Hughes . Yeah let's call the lad Emlyn. Well why don't we call her Sam? No way. Sammy's a boy's name. Samantha's disgusting anyway. Never said we had to call her Samantha. No I know but everyone would think she was called Samantha and she'd be pissed off for the rest of her life. Well Vicky at college on our course she's not Victoria she's Vicky. She was christened Vicky. Well Vicky No I know but they'll probably christen her Victoria. Delilah that's a nice name. They won't. Oh Delilah? What about Ermintrude? Samson call the lad Samson. ugh Delilah go on Samson go on put it in the goal, go on Samson I'll bet. Emily. Ugh No way Emily there's an Emily in my class, hideous. It's funny innit how you know people and it puts you off their names? Gemma Rachel's boring. Sarah's hideous. Catherine's crap. Ooh Ryanne one of the yanks' names the other night, Ryanne. Yes I know fancy her doing quite well. Yes. Oh we talk about her. No that's the one that Martin fancies. He spent the whole evening trying to What is the name Oh my god haircut haircut Wow great haircut haircut haircut . We're all pointing at you Davy haircut He sort of went he just went Er It was getting long an' all. I know well he was growing it weren't he? He said he was growing it to me. We'll have a look in the back of your dictionary. Cos they've got lists of names in the back of dictionaries haven't they? Ancient names Oh good oh Eleanor. Eleanor's quite There's a list of girls' names in here. What was it we were gonna call my dog? Er Knob bait I like Chris for a boy. Knob bait Chris as a K? Chris? Or a C? No after Chris Akubussi Prawn cocktail. Here we go. That's with a K innit? K R I They're boys' names What page is it on? girls' names. It's like from two nine six to three o three. Okay, chuck it here then. As in criss cross I've got it. No, I've gotta have it. No way. Emma Emma, criss cross No I get it first. Yeah. Oh thanks. Come on, go through some of them and I'll tell you how how crap they are. Edna June No thank you. What? Oh depends how many letters I got. How many letters do we want in it? I dunno. Daisy. Daisy Not calling her Daisy. Daisy About five or six? la la la la la la Five or six ? Okay we'll go for five now. Abbie? Abbie Abbie Nellie? Nellie, I like Nellie. Abbie's quite nice isn't it? I know, I know Abbie's sort of like real sort of turned up nose Abbie? I knew an Abbie at guides and she was a snobby nosed cow. Yeah. You really started her going then Adela, Adele. Aggie Agnes Agnes Allie, Alice Hate I do. Alana Alana No, Alana Sounds like she's an animal. Sounds like a hyena No that's a llama. That's who I was thinking of It sounds like it's a hyena Oh my god what a name. I meant llama. Alvin Alvin Alvin Alvin, Theodora and Simon. You're gonna have three kids? I was having a rest, I didn't say I'd finished. Beryl Beryl? You can't call it Beryl. By the way, by the way, what about Hagar ? Hagar? What about Hattie? No. out of Eastenders. Oh god What are you putting in? You'd better not put any bum ones in. Marge. Well I've just realized that there's there's a five letter space here so I put penis Butter Call her Marge, we don't call her No I haven't. How about calling her Marge Helena, Helena Helena Parish post held by Mr Bumble in Oliver Twist . Beadle. What? Beadle? Helena Beadle. Oh. Call her Marge, you might as well call her butter and go the whole hog mightn't you really? Nancy. Flora. Hog that's a nice name . Flora how about Flora? Flora, the margarine. What's her name in Labyrinth? Call her Flora Marge, there you go. There you are two names, call her Flora and Marge. The girl's name in Labyrinth Flora Marge How about Aline? Aline? Oh my god. Saline! Saline drip Don't get that. Helena's crap, I reckon Let's call her shock absorber Call her cauliflower. nudge nudge. Let's call her fireguard fireguard Nose I reckon we ought to call her. Just think, if it's a girl what a poor cow having a nose like that. Type of spaniel, dead. She might have my lovely nose. What? She might have my lovely nose. No I mean that's gonna that, that that gene's gonna is gonna No got it off then? He's got papers. That's crap. only helping me with the Oh jesus christ two o'clock. Why? So? Why? I'm rehearsing all day. You won't have the pleasure of my company this evening. Oh Oh Fucking me up as well oh the are my faith Oh watch me weep. Acid tears. Only joking darling, love you really. Right you know, it's fair enough Go on Jo go, go on Jo, go and get your word in that we've missed off a few times. Go on Anyway you smell his bum Yeah Oh good So why did why didn't you have a shower We could have had a shower together. No you couldn't, not in my shower there's not enough room Yes there is were they, last night Your flipping shower curtain's disgusting. covered in I know brown scabby bits. My mum bleaches ours. My mum used to bleach ours but we haven't got one now. No we've got a shower with a glass thing and you can see through the glass thing I know it's horrible it really is. I don't believe it. You never know when your dad's gonna walk in to What? He's fucking going to sleep in the car. That kid is a dickhead. Oh leave him alone. What a lousy turd. perhaps Andy smells smelly baked beans probably. No he don't smell. after he puked on your head So, it's horrible it was. What, his head? You shouldn't get off with him His helmet? you shouldn't get off with him His helmet. when he's that drunk then should you? Well I didn't know he was gonna spew, I didn't think to myself oh my god Yeah well didn't have to do it on my bed. Oh the dryer! Well I'm sorry like but I was getting a few interruptions on the landing like flipping like Clapham Junction. Oh you should go in the bathroom, it's good in there innit? I wouldn't know. Yeah but I guessed you'd wanna go in there Give him one, go on give him one. last night. Ha ha ha ha. I reckon that's what made me ill, it's your fault. Sorry dear. sick Excuse me. Oh you didn't swallow it? Why, what you done? Ugh that was Bonjella Ugh shut up, ooh ooh We were discussing how you spunk with Bonjella, she swallowed it last night. What ? She swallowed it last night . What? Spunk. I said uses Bonjella Jo do you ask these things? You know you're not really supposed to ask private. I didn't ask. Did I ask? Did I ask or not? She told me. You were the one who raised the subject. I said, I said I'm sorry you know Helena you stupid cow if you had been in here, accusing me as usual I said she goes cough up now. she said the bathroom. She said she because I left it to you in case you wanted to spit in the sink she goes oh I didn't last night, so I never brought it up alright? this she didn't even Bonjella we was discussing that It's probably why he's so thick. It probably is, that's why I know. No he's probably wearing that shit on it this morning. Well at least you was lubricated. Oh I'm gonna fail my oral tomorrow. Oh yeah? Lovely. Emma passed hers last night. What? Er? Oral dear, oral. No, female. Oh dear Mrs You are joking me ? It's embarrassing No chance. You must wear sensible shoes says she. She's Welsh. Oh that's even worse. I'd hate to be Welsh. Everyone picks on the Welsh don't they? Oh god I'll tell him that when I get back in. Wanna what? Dad everyone hates you. She's sitting there wondering what's going on . your dad My surname's by the way Jo. I know . I know I just don't think it was a, I don't think it was the slightly bit funny. Thank you I He's got some music on cos he's dancing. whopping huge clitoris It isn't. Doesn't it feel like it should be about four o'clock in the afternoon? Emma put your Well I don't think so cos you'd feel like homosexual desires who doesn't get any thrills so I don't clitoris. What footie's on the telly sarvo What? What football's Translated as what football's on the te television this afternoon. I don't know. I don't really care either to be quite honest. Flasher. Yeah . Are you stupid? He's looking at the numbers on the houses isn't he? No. Yes he is and that's why his brake lights keep flashing on. Oh yeah that was really sensible that was. I mean that was incredibly sensible what he just did. What? Looked at one house then looked at the next oh Yeah well maybe he wanted to see if they were going up in even and odd numbers side of the road. Manchester City and Southampton. If you ever get the, if you ever ever get again I'll hit you, right? Right. What's on the other side? What, when the match is on? I bet Oh shame it's a bloke works up the bank Kung fu and he's going to Oliver's. All the shit films, that's all you need to know. Go on, go on just just nudge the handbrake off. Just just Yeah just nudge the handbrake so it comes rushing straight down towards us. So? He'll have to pay the damage. No hopefully a car will be coming out of the end. Yeah and the car will be laced with high explosives. So when and he gets blown up. not as if on here you can actually only swivel round. How come I got my head his head was here I beg your pardon? shut up, when it was at that end my head started at? On the there was me Ian and Noel all sleeping in the Ian in the middle. We woke up at three o'clock in the morning and Ian was the other way round with his head at the bottom of the and we don't know how. No Swivel cos he would have he would have woken us up if unless Talking of swivel in Boots there's a thing above shave . And Helena goes swivel Swivel on it, I felt like shouting but I didn't. Oh tasty Well we're going Jo Where do you actually do the papers? Redditch Marvellous. I know. Well do you do a round? Yeah that one on the corner. Where's Barnet Way? Cos I used to live on the top floor. The big one we do first. All those photos of me . What the ? Yeah up the big hill What near where I go, all those houses? Yeah. You know when we cross over to do that one, when I cross over to do that bit on your side? The little the little Yeah. Yeah. The first house I do is I hate doing that, drives me up the wall the first bit cos I've got all them houses in the first bit haven't I? You've got three or something like that ten. you've got two I've got ten. Yeah but like I've still got more than well it's about the same cos you've got less at the top I think. Don't you reckon it feels like it should be about half three? That's what I just said a minute ago. I know but I felt like saying it again. Except you said four o'clock. Oh. Let's get together and feel alright alright. No I don't. Don't you? No. Why not? Well what do I go and see her on a Sunday for? Because you've got three weeks to do a fucking musical. We're starting our video projects tomorrow. It's a bit late. Why didn't you do it, start it earlier? Because Debbie is a stupid bitch. Fact. Which now means that for the next oh and Alex, Alex is being a stupid tart as well about this thing. How old's Julian? Julian's about twenty now. Twenty one soon isn't he? What does ? Yeah, Alex this fucking stupid project which means I've gotta stop after prac after rehearsal. Sometimes rehearsals can go on till about seven thirty or something, then Alex wants to do a rehearsal. It's the way she said oh can we rehearse in the week? And I thought oh okay. She's gone oh it's alright we'll be finished by nine o'clock. Well that's no bloody good. Mind you, mind you Julian is. Oh god he's really skinny isn't he? What? I know. Did you see his trousers? Julian. They were hanging off him, he never wears a belt Swear when he was sat at the top of the stairs shivering he looked so thin. And when he had that flipping, that blue blanket round him We were all going looks like he's doing a Romanian thing here. Bit nasty I know but Oh, I know but god did you see him? He was sat there and he was going brr brr brr brr brr he, he goes, he reckoned that, he reckoned that, that my blanket made him feel worse . What is he doing? Just ignore him. Well he's just locked up the car ooh Is he out the car now? Oh he's out the car, he's probably gone to sit on the bench. It's only raining I mean slept. So. Can't believe it. do? Ah but what's Dunno. I would if I'd said I was going to sleep, stay with Hannah believe you They'd still they'd still say oh er was Scott stopping there as well? Yeah, probably would actually. See if I said to my mum and dad I'm stopping at Hannah's tonight she'll say is Emma stopping with her and I'll say yes. Now her reaction won't, won't wouldn't be Yeah yeah her reaction wouldn't be erm you know oh you you're not doing that, you're not stopping. Her reaction would be does Emma's mum and dad know. Just say yeah. What can they do ? Phone up and ask Hannah . Hello. Well I mean did you I mean she knows that Emma was sleeping here last night doesn't she? Yeah but she thinks What you told her? Think what I shall say is, I shall myself quite simply, if it ever gets out I'll say well look I know full well that you wouldn't have let me stop at Helena's you would have objected to it I said, but Andy's mum and dad, Andy was like pretty bad so we left him there and I said I stopped up to help look after him. I stopped to try and look after him . I think I did quite well don't you? My acting skills. What acting skills? I was so pissed last night. Shit I was so pissed. Oh yeah you really were. I I was so pissed. Oh er I thought mm you're really far gone aren't you but I didn't say anything. It was later on when you c you lot are all sober now, you can go home, that everybody was I just went I said that didn't I? ? I was drunk yeah, but I was nowhere near as drunk as Don't give me that crap Helena cos you told me oh god Scott's really pissed, he'll have to stay as well. So don't tell me No don't tell me Emma said that to me, Emma said that to me. No I didn't, I said can Scott phone his mum and you said yeah. And, and you goes is he really far gone and I went yeah when you come upstairs you goes oh god looks like they're all staying you goes oh it looks like they're all staying cos Scott's pissed. So don't tell me you knew full well he wasn't, it was all an act. I a I goes to Emma is he really far gone and she said yes he is. Well I thought he was. He had me tooked in as well. You lying tart. No, so don't pretend you did know you, you thought he was acting cos you told me he was well plastered. Well I thought I thought he was a bit but I don't know No you never you thought he was pissed some people you can't tell, it's like Andy isn't it? Yeah. You can't tell if he's bad or not. You could last night. He spewed over my head Yeah but when he got down here he was as right as rain wasn't he? When he spewed on me he sort of give it away though. Yeah. Give it away a bit really didn't he? Brrrrrrrrrr right, we off up? Yeah, in a minute. Meet us round Andy's at half ten it's five past. Mm. I've only got to put a jumper on and get my bag. Got to go up yours though haven't I? Go to the toilet I shall walk save any unpleasantness about lifts. Well if I left at the same time as you he mi he might feel obliged to offer me a lift but if he did I doubt it. I would say no. Talking about? Who do you think? Well we're going home now, we're not going up to Shr to Andy's straight away. Oh is that what you meant? I thought you meant No I've gotta go and get my bag and my jumper Oh I thought you meant you were going straight to do the papers. No, we haven't got the They're at Emma's. I've got to go and get my bag and go up to Emma's and put all my pa put some clothes on first as well. have we got a leaflet? No. Good. put some clothes on first. got pneumonia. wearing last night. Oh shut up. She was wearing enough and I was h warm blooded. horny then, I was gonna say Hug your comfort blanket. What? Nothing. Oh bollocks. Oh god I've them b two beers are down there and all. Oh Hel will have them when we've gone. Our didn't stay long did he? Just picked up the kids. You know where he's sleeping don't you? Where? No. Oh! Got some gossip about Mick and June before we go. In his bloody warehouse. Oh yeah? Eh? His warehouse where he keeps all his stuff. Yeah gossip about June and Mick. He's got a girlfriend called Diane right, well you knew that didn't you? Well er he's, she's got two kids, little ones and has moved in to a house dunno whether it's with her or not but he's very touchy about the subject when anybody asks cos Johnny said oh I'm sorry to hear about you and he g he go goes oh I suppose you know it all do you? And he goes no, he goes oh I'm surprised I thought Johnny would have told you all of it. And John goes no he hasn't said a thing. Goes honestly, he goes, he goes he goes look Mick he hasn't said anything to me, if you don't believe me then tough, you know. And he said anyway according to mu dad's suspicions, and from what mum's been earwigging, erm that's why he left her. Not because he didn't love her any more, it's cos he's having this fling with this Diane. Ooh! She's tall and thin with red hair. And she's got two young kids. Yeah, like but like erm Totally the opposite to June really isn't it? Yeah. What I thought because that, because erm He was a fish because he like, oh he got over it real quick didn't he? Cos he ha he had a girlfriend didn't he? Mark said he had like lady friend whatever. Yeah but that's why he left her. Yeah I know but like he didn't sort of do it very con inconspicuously did he? No. Like couple of weeks after, after he'd Well he's moved moved out he'd flipping shacked up with someone else hadn't he? He well he's, he's moved into somewhere, dunno whether it's with this woman or not but she's got two young kids. Ooh dear. The bastard. Say no more. Two young kids. How young? Where's my shoes ? Up my bottom. Alright then chickens. see you later, you're not coming out till after tea are you? No. Get on with it . Sue what Oh dear. our conversation's even more riveting than it was before it went on. Actually it takes a while to get used to. When we first started like we wouldn't speak or anything and it was really bad. But then me and Emma got going and we got a bit drunk and we just said anything and it was really embarrassing. So what's the So what are you doing this for? For erm research I think. Like they're looking at people's accents and erm How did you get it? I wouldn't do it. This man just knocked on the door and said will you do this for me? Why? Twenty three tapes You're joking! And you get twenty five pound at the end. Ask him if he wants to come and knock at my door. No no don't tell him where I live. Crisp anybody? Becki Thanks Clare, nice chips. I was waiting for Mr to say something to me then, I was sat there going And yes you can nick some chips Oh No Tim's gonna , he's gonna say something. No let him talk She's gotta record the conversations so don't say anything. What about? What have you done? Nothing. I can hear you say don't say anything. What are saying don't say anything about for? are you going down to the hall? Yes you are, I just heard you. Cos you're paranoid. Are you going then or are you stopping in? Does she know what's going on? No. Why didn't you school this morning ? What did they say when they saw you shoplifting? You what? We didn't have French this morning. What do you mean, you're a secret stripper? What are you going on about? What do you mean your dad's in prison? That's not funny. Yeah my dad is for armed robbery, for poundstretchers 's dad who's in the I R A. Of course he lives in Redditch. And he's dad. Susan's dad employed me. Just peak just speak to each other normally . I've gotta listen back to all this and write all your names down. Hope you change my name. Well I'm Clare . And I'm Becki And I'm Becki and I'm madly in love with Andrew . So tell me Clare, how much do you weigh? Only eighteen stone on a good day. the twenty stone I was last month. If you're eating your lunch why don't you have a chair? I'm not eating anything. I can eat standing up. Now you'll get indigestion and then you'll feel sick and then you'll be moaning to me all afternoon. And then your painting will be in her Come on Sue, let's leave this lot my chips if you want to darling. Excuse me argument? No put it down. Did they send you the microphone as well? Where did you get it from? And the Walkman? Where did you get it from? It's a survey. Why doesn't anybody come, ever come round to my house and ask me? I know! Come on, carry on. Oh great! Well done! Well no-one's gonna know. What do you think they put it on radio or something? recording it for? Well the the it's just a survey to see what, what words people actually use in everyday life. Oh ya, ya. Great. Andrew well at the mo at the moment is the most used word. It's a nice name that is actually, Yeah Is it Italian or something? be Becki I think a really nice name is is This isn't gonna be shown in the school is it? Yeah. Ooh Where's it going? Just send it away. It goes to London. Nobody's gonna know Becki, don't worry. Alright and guess who lives in London? Stephanie Yeah well there's qu there's quite a few million people actually who do. So I don't think that actually can't really miss her, such a fat cow. Speak of the devil Oh sit yourself down you fat cow. Steph any cards? Stiff. Have you got my card? Can I Stiff? have it a sec? How did you get on Steph? Was it good? Excuse me, speak up a bit. Don't worry I'm only recording you. Do you know what I'd do? I'd put it underneath the drawer in my mum and dad's bedroom at night. Specially in a caravan they're going rock rock rock rock rock rock Ah! Oh that would be funny that would. Whatever you do don't panic. She will think you're manic. Whatever you do don't pale because you're bound to fail. Just give us a big cheesy grin and you know you're in with a chance squeaky clean. Good luck sorry about the I had a dream last night, there was a mega earthquake. And Clare was supporting it? No Clare had got flatulence sorry that was nasty. Can I use some big words?obscure antidisestablishmentarianism Ooh! She's got a dictionary somewhere. Read it. That's the longest word in the dictionary. Pardon? That's the longest word in the dictionary. Sad. People s started sniffing I reckon the most used words are things like the And sex. No I don't. And. Yeah. No like cos people go you mean like you mean like And if you come from Man if you come from Manchester it's Aye. It actually picks up voices really well. Cos I had a load of music on and you could still hear voice. Well how about the background noise? Will it, can it do the background noise? I dunno. I haven't listened to that much really pick it up if I farted? Not with me, no. Oh yes I have in my bag. Have you? Shall we listen to it in a minute, please? Alright then. I wanna listen to it, you've already listened to it. Do you mind not using this obscure words. It doesn't matter you can fart if you want . You should pick up a chair and throw it at me but Me and Emma was talking about the flipping things she gets up to with Scott. Well that's not much. What? Emma who? Not much really. ? I forgot you knew her actually just then. Becki, do you know Emma ? No, sorry. On her first day there she asked yeah Hang on, let me switch myself off. Why bother? Stick it in your pocket Helena and she goes why, I goes well every time I got, when I went out the other night and when I come in the other night there was Helena with her arms round Andrew, so it's not that I, I'm worried about it but I just think it's a bit tarty of her cos she's fancies the pants off Pete and as soon as my back's turned and Pete isn't there she's all over Andrew. And I goes yeah I know what you mean. I goes I'm not really, I only wind you up. I goes erm I know exactly what's gonna happen when I go away this Easter. I goes I'm not bothered about the fact she's getting off with him, I'm just thinking, you know, it's not fair on Peter. Oh yeah it's not fair on Peter. Oh poor, poor angelic little Peter. Yeah he's not taking me for a ride or anything. Well you as well because you've but er you're using Andrew really. I mean I No I'm not! I wouldn't do anything. I got off with Andrew but that's all a p only a who I get off with him and I don't fancy him, I know I don't want to go out with him I just fancy him for the occasional snog, fair enough but I'm just saying like you know you fancy I the pants of Peter but if my, my back's turned and Peter ain't there you're all over Andrew like bloody I know but I mean I, I only, I only wind him up, I only wind you up, I don't really do anything. I mean I used to fancy him really badly. You will do when I'm in, at Easter. I won't. You will. No I don't unless I was drunk I wouldn't, because because I know he do Yeah but you're gonna get drunk so what's the problem? I know I, cos I know he doesn't want to really. And to be quite honest if Pete's there everyone else can just go and drop dead cos I, it's true Exactly. it's true I know it is. I really fancy Peter like flipping god's sake I mean I really do. You know and I, I, I only wind you and Andy up, I wouldn't really do anything. Honestly I wouldn't. Come on then. Oh dear . But I wouldn't really do anything Joanne. Don't you trust me? No. Not really surprising . No I wouldn't really. Do you trust me? No. Good. Don't know where Scott's taking Emma last night. No. Probably take her out He won't take her out for a meal. Don't you think? No, said to him are you he goes no. Who sings that? Oh it's the same song innit?everywhere you go everywhere you go Hello Smokey ooh I've had such a bad morning. It's all taken such an effort. Felt like not going to school I can tell you. otherwise er I'm gonna be skiving off. but I had to inform people. Who have you told? My mate. Everybody. My mate. Have you, have you been getting any strange looks or haven't you noticed? But I told Isabel and Clare and Stephanie oh and Lisa and Emma they all thought it was really funny. I ain't told Lee yet though. Oh and er Eh? I ain't told Lee yet though he's been away I think oh and Sarah but ne he'll get the treatment on Monday. I'll get it off him and then I'll say oh and Sarah and I told Danny I told my boss as well and he killed himself laughing. Oh and Nichola Lisa Well bloody friends you lot are, you and your fucking goes how did your party go? I goes oh really well. Andy Andy vomited into Joanne's hair! What? You. Hello Sammy darling! the mail box bomb you need two litre bottle of chlorine it's a How many bombs are in there? There's about twenty different No listen, listen you need a two litre bottle of chlorine which must contain sodium hy hypochlorite You can get, that's bleach, you can get that in bleach. Yeah. sugar and a small amount of water mix all three of these equal amounts and fill about a tenth of the bottle. Screw on the lid and place in the Ha! Oh that's America Yeah it's all American. It gives prices in dollars and everything I know. Don't say anything about this by the way cos it's illegal. I know it's illegal. Oh this joke today? Er right walking on the beach and he a genie came out when he rubbed it and he goes oh no way man. The genie comes out and goes you, I can only grant you one wish, think carefully. He goes right thought for ages and he thought right what do I really need? Yeah, right I've decided what I really want is a dick that, that, that drags on the floor. So the genie cut both his legs off. Same with you, don't say anything about this. About what? About this, Let's have a look. Don't napalm bombs, no do, do What? They can put napalm. Make bombs, yeah. the I R A but you can make a bomb out of erm bleach and that I thought that was quite funny at the time. Er I have more days off than you have. Have you got whitsun off? Have you got whitsun week off? I have. Have you got pardon? Yes. gotta have whitsun off. Oh what, what erm what's toilet rolls and er Starship Enterprise got in common? A load of crap. They both go round and try and get rid of cling-ons. I've got two weeks at christmas, I've got a week's two weeks in the summer I've got an extra week and christmas no hold it, christmas so Ha! Thirty nine days a year I'll be having. Who gives a shit? Me, cos it's and groovy and you're So there! Pardon? True, true. But there's one called operation fuck up. got a bomb, what you do you know Only just switched it on. car you, you er you break, break open the window and get it and er you cover their seats in syrup, all over so that you know, really sticky, golden syrup. Er you then fill their car with whole car and this is the really sick part of it you put, you er rip, slash their, you put s you put their car and then your tyres and fill it with, instead of air you fill them with cement. So when they do finally get their car it goes about three miles to the gallon, and it, it really it on with the music blaring. it's worse when you've got put the kettle on. I'm not picking on Emm. I'm not picking on Emm. None of those people know her so it doesn't matter. Oh it don't matter, don't matter. Nobody knows Helena shall I? Would you? Well why should me? Nobody knows shall I? You then open up their petr you open up their erm petrol tank Drink? and tip Yeah Please Yes please And. Put it down a bit. two bags of sugar into their petrol and when the engine heats up it turns to caramel, you know like like toffee. And it blows all the gaskets and they have to have every single part of the engine taken out and cleaned that was hideous I would love to do that. Well it's a waste of time, you'd have to scrap the car then. And then you and then you get that magnesium oxide, you get that magnesium ribbon and that thermite and you erm you, you put that in. and it melts your engine block Shit. I'll forgive you Joanne Joanne Joanne What? thing is that men's dicks should be as big as their hands. how small Andrew's hands are. that Y-front. Yeah it's about that wide Does it sprout five different endings does it? They'd have to be, they'd need trimming Yeah Andy's got small fingers. Stubby they are stubby. short and fat then? hands, that's how hands should be They that is piano hands they are, they're short they're long and skinny. If you got a piece of A four paper you'd ha you wouldn't be able to fit it on A five. got your hands full. Hey And, I can see you better now. Oh can you? Yeah. No, not really me is it? Oh you look like have you seen that er what's it the hyperspace hotel? Have you seen that one that hotel. on my head on my head got that irritating voice and you sou you look just like him. Yeah I know him well. But he, he's got dark hair. Ah yes save me some. ah yes please! Can't usually read them books. I can't. sighted are you? Are you short sighted? Yeah. Yeah not badly are you? Well You will be soon. Glasses could really fuck up your eyes. I mean I can't even read that. What? I'm not getting pissed this weekend. Pardon? Said I'm not getting pissed this weekend at all. Nor am I. So we're gonna Saturday week, Sunday week. I can't afford it. Nor can I. mad going mad. I am yeah He's not going are mad Bye Shrimp . See you tomorrow See you tomorrow Shrimp Bye, see you. Bye exactly what I'd do. Oh I feel sick. What you eating? What? spare one in there. oh you're sick. Yeah they're nice. What are they? biscuits. dog biscuits Mm. They're horrible Bonio they're gorgeous. Yeah lovely. I have them for my tea. Have you had them marrow bones? Don't like them. Sick ain't they? Not the Bonio. Go on then. Shut up. Look they already think you're a yob. Yaaaaaa I've gotta give that to somebody tomorrow. Can't help being an animal. There isn't, no. What? The whole first of the s er Ah! I love this song. Yeah don't beat me up now. It's ace. Is it you is it you fat dad? It's my dad. My dad You have I told, I told my dad that was What? I told my dad that was I chucked his in the bin and it had sort of stains on it and I told him that was I wish I'd put on Rich. Eh? Shall I put on What? I don't like Carter I like this. ugly geek at the door. This one's ace. Ugly geek? Mm. It's Er other two. other two? Shrimpy's gone home. gone home Joanne's outside. Joanne's outside smoking a weed. Fagging. She's in the kennel. Smok oh smoking weed. You really hate that so much don't you? In the kennel fagging. Fag before school, before I go in, dinner time when I go round the back Drinks mead bottle of mead. Imagine Lee sat in a bottle . He'd be upside down when you're drinking it. Yeah. it's crap. That was a crap joke. one of these we can try now. We've tried bomb and nap napalm. Salt. It looked like Colgate. The other Salt and weedkiller works. We tried it with diesel no unleaded petrol we tried it with didn't work very well. Unlead unleaded petrol's better. It, it exploded but not in fire. It just went pwooooh and shattered glass everywhere. Alright then. on the floor? Which is the one Not all over the top, there's all the glasses . which is the one, which is the erm like you put it erm, you can't see a flame like, it's alcohol innit? Yeah What? Alcohol burns and you can't see a flame can you? No. Yeah cos I was burning You can. Dad, dad used to use it for the bonfires but when he, when he didn't have any petrol he used to use it on the bonfire and he had it in a secret bottle and erm he got it too near and he didn't realize and all of a sudden it goes really really hot and he threw it and everywhere. Well in this bomb it's potassium permanganate you need potassium permanganate and petrol Have you ever thrown one? No. Never done I've never made a bomb. on his face and he's going oh I've got, he says I can't he's going no no my face is stinging and he goes my face hurts, his face was red like, he goes it hurts, it's stinging and he's rubbing and everything and he goes oh it hurts, it hurts and laughing at him. What? drip down there Yeah. big red mark a nasty person. He was a real so and so A real rotter. say bastard The worse thing is when it gets in your eye when they put it on at the hairdressers after ugh Yeah I'm allergic to perm lotion. Oh. And it, and it like, it run down me face there and I had a big red mark on me face. Oh yeah I saw that. It's acid that's why. Yeah they they they Acid when, in the hairdresser they put it on my hair and it went in my eye. Probably Ah! went aaaah you know er all the blokes at work are going on a rave in Newcastle this weekend. Yeah oh meant to be They're going Saturday night have hair cut Andrew? Andrew. meant to be good for nightclubs. I wanna go to have it shaved Did I tell you the name They're place is called, oh there, there was er couple of weeks ago, they had a strip show you know layered Yeah? Yeah. What? well in, in erm in erm Plymouth they've got, they've got this band called Erotica, they've got another one called Boobs and all these different and he said they live up to their er names like. Andrew. my hair done . Who gives a shit? I'd love to have mine shaved off from about there back. I'd love to have my hair about What permed? I'd like to have my hair No shaved from there back and then as it is at the moment in the front. I'd like to have my hair about that long, about erm Oh A why do men insist on doing disgusting things to their hair? I want my hair that long and er probably have it cut the same way I I I I I er I couldn't have it done cos of work but I'd love to have it done. If I wasn't at work I'd have it done. Oh and and that's what I want done, my hair about that long erm You'd look a total knob Andrew. be excellent. And then I could put it all back in a ponytail except for a bit at the front dripping down. Excellent It takes honestly it takes so much willpower to grow your hair it really does. I know it that's why I cut mine. It get, it gets, it gets to about that length no it gets to shoulder, it gets to shoulder length well remember mine did,mine before I had it cut Oh that wasn't shoulder length. Yeah. No well it was like down to there. It was when it grew from here. And that, and that, and that was a like a really . It began to annoy me. Yeah my hair was that long when I had it cut. It really cheesed me off. If you, you get it to a certain length and it's a bit too short to have the layers cut out, cos you need it all the same length really and it pisses you off so much. It's too, it's too long to do anything with and to short to Yeah. it's too short to Cut like It's too sh Style. look, start yeah, too short to look stylish and too long to do anything with Yeah. so it just sort of there Yeah, too heavy innit sort of thing. Yeah. If you can have it c if you can have it cut all one length it's alright then. Your perm's quite now innit? I was thinking of having extensions actually, in my hair till it grew. Having what? Extensions. Do you know how much they cost? Yeah about forty quid. Yeah that's not for a lot though, that isn't. That's for your whole head . It is, forty quid. I mean he just leaves the You've gotta have your hair longer than that though. you have, it probably you can't,ye yeah but my hair was the right length before. That's when I was gonna have it done. But er Wanna keep wanna keep mine short at the back now. Yeah I think, I think You, you can't wash your hair for about er when you have extensions I don't like men having long hair. you can't wash your hair for about two months or something like that. Don't suit them. Cos had it done, he never washes his, like erm went for about four months without washing his hair and it, it really did reek. It was horrible, it just smelt. If you leave it for so long though Really bad. it starts cleaning itself and it's alright then. Well his didn't. But you have to leave it for like months. Are you growing your hair again? Are you? Alright this is a good one I thought about having mine permed actually. It won't suit you. What? It won't suit you. Don't start that. From my experience of perms I wouldn't bother. Perms are okay if Yeah but it depends whose hair it is. having to look stupid drop out and look okay Here you are And this is a good one diskette fire you computer you need a disk, some scissors, white or blue kitchen matches so and clear nail polish. The reason they've gotta be those colours is erm and clear nail polish. Carefully open up the diskette three point five inches for the best effect and it's like my Amiga one remove the top covering from the inside, scrape a lot of match powder into a bowl match powder. After you have a lot, spread it evenly on the inside disk. Using nail polish spread it over the match mixture, let it dry, carefully put diskette back together nail polish to seal it, do it on the inside where it came apart. When that disk is in a drive the drive head to read the disk which causes a small fire inside disk drive ha ha ha ha, let the fuckhead try and fix that. It melts all your disk drive. Start all, start a fire. Excellent eh?bomb, this is good. Well on mine she did it once, it didn't work so she did it again for free and then it all started breaking off. It fell out the day after. It's probably your hair then. Then I grew it out then I grew it out and then it was all brittle still so I had it cut. And now I'm growing it. I shall grow it down into a bob and have it a bit long steppy bit at the back and keep growing it. I think you'd look good with like an asymmetrical bob. at the back? Yeah. I hate them. Do you? I think they look nice actually at the back like their bob's there and they go up at the back. Like if you have it like there You know, you know Dawn ? With really dyed blond hair and dark roots curly? yeah. The one What? Yeah. yeah. Goes up at the back. She's got I hate them What? They cut a small hole in a tennis ball, stuff all the match heads into the ball until you can't fit any more in Oh Rich that's gonna probably gonna cost you about she's recording this. So? So? So that's gonna ma that's gonna be about three quid's worth of matches. Giving away secret information of how to make bombs. Then tape over it with duck tape, make sure it is real nice and tight then when you see a geek walking down the street give it a good throw you will have a blast. That is ace. It doesn't matter, it doesn't matter what you say. Say. Say. Who are you giving it to? Except that this is highly highly illegal information ? What? what? They're doing a survey Here you are, napalm napalm lightbulb. on like what words different Heat kerosene and gasoline in a double boiler, melt soap chips and stir in slowly, put somewhere and allow to cool. Heat the thread of the bulb very carefully to melt the glue, remove thread slowing drawing out the filament, do not break the electrical or filament will, just won't work pour the liquid into the bulb and slowly lower the filament back dipped in some . Redo the thread back on and turn it into a socket frequently used by the victim and get the hell out. and like what accent people are talking at Yeah. Well it's how we, it's how we usually talk isn't it? that much usually. What? We don't that much No but I mean conversation, it's conversation with my friends and conversation with my parents When the victim switches the switch he will be in for a big surprise. Basically you've killed him. It just blows the whole room up. Have fun it says underneath . till tomorrow. I've only done three tapes, he gave me twenty. He gave you twenty tapes? Yeah here you are this is a good one, calcium carbine bomb . This is extremely dangerous. And they wanted you to do all of them? No. You only have to do as many as you can. Exercise extreme caution. Obtain some calcium carbine this is and can be found at nearly every hardware store. Take a few pieces of this stuff, it looks like gravel You've brought a load round with you now have you, to do? What? Are you gonna do a load tonight? No. I'll give him whatever I do. and put it in a glass jar with some water, put a lid on tightly. The carbine will react with the water to produce acetylene carbonate which is similar to the gas used in cutting torches. Eventually the glass will explode from internal pressure, it will leave a burning ragged hole and you get a nice fire ball. Be excellent wouldn't it? Giving away trade secrets of how to make bombs here you know. Is it a good microphone? What? microphone I don't know, probably not probably but at least It'll get you it won't get me Somebody has been spraying my aftershave. What? Yeah I can smell it. Oh Obsession. Mm. I can smell Go and have a spray get rid of the whiff. It was probably yours weren't it? Yeah. Don't matter then. No, what your whiff Don't keep mine in there cos he uses it. What? You use my deodorant if I leave it in there. No I don't. You do. No it stinks. I bought one bottle of that and that stinks. Have you smelt yours? Haven't got any in there Not that one. What, which one is it you had not, you got yeah and you haven't got it any more. It was really sick it was I though that What the one Shrimpy sprayed in my hair? What? Adidas. I swear people hate my hair. I've had No I like your Adidas, What? I'm not sure, it was sick whatever it was. Andrew's deodorant sprayed in it I've had Andy being sick on my hair What? One of, one of And Solo You know those little bottles of No it weren't Put, let's let's turn this crap off. well I don't put any of that st Well Solo ain't very nice but th I ain't on about that. No, the only little bottles about that big that I've got And What? you know the little bottles about that big that I've got? And What? you know those little bottles I've got about that big? Six of them in that pack what you got from . I got one of them and I had and it's got that in it. And er that's the one you know with er it's the one with the golf ball in it's lid anyway Ah yeah. and I spilt the entire contents of that over my shirt one of my old shirts and it's the only one I had to wear, I actually had to wear it, it absolutely reeked. It still does smell a bit cos I haven't washed it since then and that was about three months ago. Come here you fat animal. Leave my dog alone you smelly git. If you turd on the carpet you're eating it. And your turd. Here you are, this is a good one Sam, come here Sam. Here is a recipe for a hell of a smoke bomb. Four parts sugar, six parts Come here, come on Sam. six parts potassium nitrate which is, I dunno what that is actually, it says salt peter next to it someone called Peter and it's salt Yeah. nitrate Heat this heat this mixture over a low flame until it melts, stirring well. Pour it into a pewter container and before it solidifies embed a few matches into the mixture Sounds like a actually, low flame to use as fuses. One pound of this stuff will fill up a whole block with thick white smoke. anyway What? I'm telling you. One pound that's hardly anything is it? Dunno. Selling it in August How do you stop this? One pound is about er Selling what? My megadrive. Oh. How do you turn this off? Oh yeah, why? Buying a Virtuality system. heard that one. Are you? Two hundred and twenty nine quid. Yeah. What er portable home one. oh what do you get games on it Comes out in August. or what? Or is it What? What is it for, games? You know Virtuality? Yeah I know what it is but The I mean is it yeah but is it for creating your own No it's erm well it's worlds like? You get, you can buy the games for it. Yeah. Don't know how much they're gonna be though cos if this system's only two hundred and twenty nine quid I thought it was like driving but you're sitting in the car properly aren't you? Well you've got shades on so when you look around you see whatever's around inside the game. ace actually. show a different view Yeah. just go like that, excellent. It will be quite hard as well cos say something's coming up behind you, the only way you can see is to go like that. You have to keep looking, unless you have mirrors or something you might mirrors on it. Yeah, might. Yeah but it's You know still hard though innit? They'll have a scanner animals. That was our can of coke wasn't it? It's only one can, they're not exactly gonna notice are they? Yeah Your brother nicked three er bottles of lager and brought them round to my house on Saturday. My dad knew he took them. And he, you know, he's not gonna know if Andrew goes through there and suddenly disappears and don't come back through that door for got a proper keyboard lead. Cos he, he went through he went out the garage, come back in here, shouted to Jo as loud as he could Jo I've got them. He goes Jo got them and laughed as loud as he could, and then blew off down your house. He didn't even come back out through that door, you know my dad wasn't very suspicious or anything! He didn't give a shit. He knew. Yeah but he didn't give a shit. I only drunk one of the, you He didn't give a shit cos he knew you I think there's one still in the fridge actually. What happened to the other two? There were two. Well drunk one There was two, what happened to the other one? My brother drunk it. You got album ? Somewhere. Put on Civil War. I haven't written down Think it's the first one or second one. Yeah but it's in no order I just, I record. Eh? I du I dunno w I dunno which tape is which. Oh. so no way. Alright? Leave alone. What? Oh yeah eh has it been up someone's arse? Ah Put it back and have another one then They taste better. Got Go on. Oh great, give me loads. Are there any oranges there? Mm? No there's one banana. shouldn't I? Mm. Yeah that would have been dead funny wouldn't it? head whack into that. Yeah literally dead funny. Dead funny. You'd have hit I wouldn't urinate. You would. Only cos I'm incontinent. It's what? Africa? not. We are. Caught on there didn't I? Is it ah! It's a drip I don't believe it! Mr 's wife is in this. Have you got the Advertiser, my cousin's in it And, have you got the Advertiser? Somewhere. My cousin's in it, he looks really silly. My Look. Look at that look at that. Alright then. No Is that still on? What? Yeah. Oh well. Yeah Yeah permanent orgy. Ha ha ha. Excellent I think. Mm. That is shit that is. What? I know. the music Where's fag for two weeks. Boo hoo. What's he in it for? Mr 's wife that is. so bad. is that the one? Yeah what's he in here for? Being ace at something Your cousin ? Oh at ? Yeah. I saw that. It's a crap picture. Ah that's him Which one? That one. Oh how Yeah I And have you bought the new one yet? Not yet. Why? Ow! Deputy head what a name. Better than Mr though. We are very pleased with the results indeed wow Our deputy head's called Mr How did Pete cope with that? What? What? What did you say And? What did Helena say? What did Helena say? Andy, what did Helena say? What did he say? All I said was No How did Pete cope with that. Yeah but And he yeah what did you, what did she say? Nothing. She didn't catch on at first. Yeah but what was you on about ? Watch where you're kicking woman. Give us a nibble. That's Emily. What did you mean, how did Pete cope with that? What a stupid cow she looks there . Emily who? No Helena you're meant to hurt him not give him enjoyment. What? Said she's meant to hurt you not give you enjoyment. What? I'm afraid. Look at my hands. Oh excellent. I think Helena deserves all she gets. Why? got some excellent CD's here And. Cos she's got a big gob. Oh yeah. Look. Andrew. Yes. A coat like yours is in here for sixty quid. The one you knackered, no thanks to me. Red Dwarf's on in one minute. She deserves all she gets. Why? Well she What an honour for you. I said I was sorry. She Actually I, I about Pete. Shut up Not a lot. Just ask about love bites and you'll know it all. Go on Helena. ignore you. Oh it's not a tape recorder either. So?we've talked about everything on tape so it don't matter. When? And when did you get that? We, we've talked about Oh I see And what's that like? What is it? It's crap. Is it? I bought that and I bought Yeah. and they're both the same thing. No And there's no need to worry mate. It was on the first tape. Oh that's okay then. Oh I'll see you. tomorrow. Two twenty five pound Marks and Spencers vou er Marks and Spencers vouchers for doing it. It's crap innit? Jo, Er this is shit yeah, take that. Love bites go all around the body Where exactly were these love bites? Oh there's Helena's mum,ring Sheila on 7tel;. Where exactly were the love bites by the way? For hot sex. Patient patient lady instructor, professional instruction, door to door service, excellent rates Where were they Helena ? and very reliable . Would I tell him, no? I'll leave my imagination to run wild. What? Now you know what it's like. Richard trust your petty brain to think it does it automatically because the Beach Boys, ooh that sounds good. We don't No thank you He wasn't doing anything on it. It's alright, it knows anyway. What? Got a nose? No Scott's got a nose. What? What? What? that is Remember that time in France when you went on me ? You went ape you went ape poo on me You deserved it, you're ugly. Fact that I was calling him a murderer had nothing to do with it. Called me a murderer . Kill the bastard. We didn't. Smelly. That thing there What? that thing in black Look, you've got some as well except You, you planted them on me didn't you? Oh you're socks are disgusting. Ah you caught it then! Ha ha ha ha ha ha Yeah butterfingers. Ooh! See er I made it No I didn't, no. Genoa beat Liverpool Liver if Liverpool scored off all their chances and if Genoa theirs Liverpool would have won about twenty to four. tough shit weren't it? No that's the time they would have won, twenty to four Oh, twenty to four? Yeah. They played for ages Yeah. What happened to the referee, blow the whistle too early? No, no he didn't, he didn't blow it at all no, it's not on till four twenty this morning er three forty this morning that he blew it in, in the end. Jeez. Yeah. And they're all knackered? They are yeah. Bet the pitch is a bit messy now. So long I don't think it was, it ended quite soon soon that's why I'm changing the disc to put in something else that is a bit longer and slightly better Like your willy Like your willy Don't think so. Your willy?instead of open and close. Cos your a dur I'm a dur I'm a dur brain . A dur a dur brain. A dur brain Dipstick. You're chronic Rich you are. Ah yeah? You are chronic. I'll give you some grief if you say I'm wearing a pair of griff actually. that's, that's That's true. that's, you what? That is. good one on Rich? I am Which one are you putting on? The Put on. Not yet Yes! not till I've heard it. You will. Will not. You will. Not. I will slap your end. I will not properly put it on then. You will. Ee you're obsessed I used to have a teacher called Mrs . Your obsessed. I did. At nursery school I had a teacher called Mrs . Okay, no-one's interested. But everyone laughed. Richard Yeah How can he have athlete's foot? He's a lazy bastard. Me lazy? The second remix on the er on the twelve inch. What? Yeah. We'd have put remix two on it. Tell you what it's It's crap. No it isn't, it's good. It's crap. It's not. It is. I've got a brilliant cure for that actually. Just chop your feet off. Chop his head off. You wouldn't know about athlete's foot would you Andrew? Considering you've never done anything in your life athletically. you try it. You try it. What time do you get up? You're hardly ever up before I go to work. If I, if I get up at seven You're lucky you are. I got up at eight this morning I got up at seven which is late for me just go back to bed. I get up at eight every morning. Ah you're lucky you are. I have to get up at quarter to nine, how do you think I feel? Shit Rich. If I was you I'd give it up. And I, and I finish at half four. Eh? Tell you what Rich you fin you finish at half five you do oh yes, but me, I have to wait all the time till half four minus one hour longer that is. Yeah you actually have to do longer It works out the same but it works out the same yeah but you go twenty five minutes over don't you? about five minutes early no No they fi five to they break at We don't have we don't have an hour for lunch. We only get half an hour What you doing? pleasing myself. Giving him a different style Oh yeah that would be funny. Better than believing in a god. Mm. It depends what you've been brought up with though dunnit? Yeah but if you think about it, people laugh when you say oh like I believe in fate, bit more easier to believe than believing in somebody up there like looking at us innit? I I couldn't believe in that. Everyone's entitled to their own opinion. You haven't got any opinions though cos you're a Shut up. wouldn't like that would you? Ugh funny You ugly cunt. He's always doing that, he's reading or drawing or something and he's laughing to himself. that's hilarious that is. No yeah It's your favourite now. No What? Am I right? No you're not It is am not I am And Yeah spending three ninety nine in Is that all it costs for a C D then, three ninety nine? No er in between school and not working? I'm going to college, and university, and law school. Well how do you think you're gonna pay for all that? Government grant and my parents are paying for it anyway. Government, do you know how much grant you'll actually get? Not much but my mum and dad said they'll pay the rest. I get all of my grant. As long as I get good erm GCSE's. I got two grants The shut up The government pays all of my grant, or will be. Does it? It will do when I go to university. It won't pay all my brother's cos they're cheapskating bummers. Yeah that's because your family works still isn't it? Mm. You don't ha not if you, not if you chop your legs off they don't. Well me dad's eighty two, I mean he's hardly gonna go out to work is he? He can go on the game. He does. He does already. Goes after poultry does he? Yeah. Give it here. I'm reading it. Give it here. in a minute. Look at that. I don't want stop trying to get me in a Sorry I was going to tell you about Margaret Oh yeah, Margaret and Snowy, yeah they went to this Howstead Abbey Yeah because they've got a season ticket and they got to feed the ducks and He's so they er to get the stuff, shove it in the boot, lock it up, yeah somebody had robbed them, didn't they? Must of seen them putting it in, they had fifty quid away, she had fifty quid on her Yeah in the handbag And she left it in the boot? Yeah Did she? Well, is that better than carrying a bag, you never know do you? No I mean if you carry a bag somebody will mug you and pinch it off you like Yeah Anyway they had the her handbag away and so they got all her trust cards and all this business you know Yeah er did they get the police? Did they get the police? Yeah Oh they got the police, but, I mean the police say er yeah we're, we'll probably know who's done it, which they do don't they? Yeah But er whether we can prove it Mm Apparently the, he said they've had one of them up in court twenty seven times and they haven't been able to prove it yet which they can't, they've got to get somebody who sees them take them haven't they? Mm He's got a handle bar What that bloke sitting behind? Yeah Looks like Mr oh having a ride in He just sat there though Mm Oh I wonder what, I wonder what er, what party he's for? Sshh Oh no Sshh sshh sshh it's Neil I hope it's not them two walking along the again I hope it's not them two walking on the, on the sea front when the, when he falls over. No it was Sshh, sshh Nice brown top Why don't they show us all Britain? Sshh that is Britain, it's just in the winter Sshh Oh no Sshh cor this is a bit ugh ah let's all clap for Neil, er, er what's he gonna do go off and have a boxing match? Sshh Sshh why don't you shut up for a moment Oh sorry cos she's recording and she wants to hear somebody speaking on it just sounds a bit silly if you can only hear the telly They came in today to give us this talk about kind of er, kind of erm, money we're gonna get, whatever today, you know, like they said about the Poll Tax You want one on , you want one on Eh? said here about the Poll Tax What it say? Well it was with every community charge benefits and everything Yeah said, said that at the moment we're paying twenty per cent, twenty per cent er Poll Tax erm we're on about thirty five pound a week, the full grant, that's how much we get you know if you level it out you know get the full grant Yeah, well, like you know, the full the grant is two thousand whatever Yeah two thousand whatever, not you're saying that parents subsidize that, you know Yeah whatever you, whatever your grant is whether it's eight hundred pounds, parents subsidize that up to the two thousand whatever Yeah erm, up to the grant status, and then everybody should be on two, er thirty er thirty six pound a week out of that's got to come everything you've got, everything you've got to pay for to drink, whatever Mm and erm like I said up to about, up to about two years ago you could claim housing benefit with which you could pay your rent, and that was a great help to students you know, but now that's been stopped, but you don't get anything like that, so you've got thirty five pound a week to pay for food, rent, community charge, everything Yeah right, you should of seen the look on everybody's face Yeah like you just, they just went, oh and but I think it's finally, I mean I was in the about how much it's, you know what a struggle it is, yeah Well you knew, cos we told you I knew what it was what you get but everybody thinks that it's gonna be easy Yeah because they think they're going to get more, don't they? Or they thought they were and the only people they're going to get any more from is the parents, nowhere else, nobody else is going to give them anything I've got no illusions about it, I don't expect you to get anything from anywhere else, and I know that you, you wouldn't get anything from anywhere else because they, they've cut it, they've cut it to the bone and the only people that can afford to go now and to live in anything like A decent Yeah, is people who have got rich parents. It's like Jane her, her mum and dad, her, her dad's rich, they're er is rich is oh er Lives at Bromsground? Yeah Yeah he's oh, oh and Claire said to me oh well Labour if Labour get in we'll get, we'll get a, you know, we'll be much better off, we'll get a much better grant, er Jane goes but oh we'll get, we'll get every erm, my mum and dad will get loads of other things er dad, I won't be able to pay for it, I goes well no because you probably get, you get the housing benefit back You won't get better grants, you won't though, cos it won't have time to work through No it might, it might But you will do be the year after Yeah Yeah, well for the last year but I think I think, I think actually, I think they will try to do something actually because if they, if they do away with the loans thing Yeah they'll have to try do something won't they? I know the way, I know, but To be honest you don't, it's not going to be you just because you vote for Labour oh no, no it's not no No I mean of course not and then they can't say alright, oh students give them hundred pound a week, he give them none, give them none no, they can't do that because of the state of the economy and then if I know that, but You've got to be realistic like ain't you? but surely, but surely I mean surely they'll be able to restore the housing benefit Well hopefully they'll be able to do something Well it says in that, in that thing I've got they're gonna restore a fair system of grants Yeah of grants, that's, that's the thing I looked at, it didn't say a fair grant No it said grants Yeah so I mean even if they don't bring in, oh the housing benefit But I mean they'll bring in something a housing grant you know, I mean, on to, to my, to my mind, when on April the tenth they're not going to be able to go No when they hear it all day oh, you know, that's, that's it because for thirteen years they have dismantled the social system, that's what they've done in thirteen years, so they can't say overnight, we'll put it all back because there isn't, there, there isn't the finance there because they've spent it all to have done what they've done Yeah because they've sold everything off like gas and electricity and everything and all the resources they've got for it they've spent, to supplement everything else, so the money won't be there, and, and the income from the electricity and that isn't going to the Government it's going to private enterprise Yeah so, so it's not gonna be there, and unfortunately it's going to take a while, because we're in such a deep recession and recession is bad, and it's not getting any better Yeah it won't any more What It, it'll take a long time before it starts to buck up. Why, why do they say, that for the election it will take them three or four years to put, whatever they promise into operation? Yeah, to put it right, to start to put it right Well they're they're education promises are, we'll do this within two years, we'll do this within Yeah three years yeah well I mean they'll want to and they've got within three years you're leaving Yeah, but they've got They've got to help people like me but I don't know they've got to try and show what, you shouldn't think that they are doing something You should just you this is what I'm trying to tell you shouldn't think what's it going to do to me this is what I'm trying to tell everybody at school, you shouldn't be thinking oh, how's it gonna effect me, what I'll do if No No because you should help, think of a society as whole because, that, this is, the , I said to this kid the other day, he goes oh, like Ian was arguing with them when I went in Yeah and he was going oh all what the Tories haven't done for you, and he goes and what are Labour gonna do for us? I goes well they'll improve the grant to start off with, he goes well it won't be in time to benefit us, I goes well you shouldn't just be thinking about yourself No No that's the trouble with people Yeah They're just, they're just bothered about, about themselves Everyone, everyone thinks of themselves, it's like on their, all them people who are under that certain amount, they're all gonna be going oh well in here Yeah we'll vote for them, then Yeah and people do that don't they? Well it's like , it's like Richard today, he goes well what, well what are Labour gonna do for us? So I goes well, they'll probably, they'll probably erm er give better grants and restore erm, er housing benefit of sorts, whatever happens Well is he going to university? Yeah What doing? Dunno or something, and, he goes But the only, I think the only course he'll pass is mucking about course, let's see who can muck about for the next three years the most. I can't understand it, they've got to have a decent grade to go to university, but they seem to think that they can get in on D's and E's, if he gets D's and E's, he's not going anywhere, except to work No, I, I wouldn't I wouldn't expect it, I reckon because I mean, because come on He ain't, because to me you, you not got, you're wasting your time Stupid innit? If you haven't got, if you haven't got enough discipline to get a good grade in your O levels in school then you're not then you no way gonna have enough discipline to get any sort of grade at university because you live in That's for the testing innit? Yeah, because, I mean you're living at home when your doing A levels, you, you haven't even got And you got the discipline of your parents to say get up there and do something have you? No But some people don't, Adeleine got that, his parents don't tell him to get on with it, half, half the people at school they got that Well if I didn't, I mean I don't think, you do enough either of you do enough, but in, you know I mean Do you know what I was talking to Nicola I don't care what other people do I'm saying I don't think you So, so what kind do enough either of you so what kind of time have I got at the moment? No, you ain't got Well I know you're doing that, but you still got Yeah, but to find time to do your work because your exams are still going to be on the same day aren't they? I know , I'm doing my work at school, I've, but I know you ain't got a lot of time now, it's, I mean they, when, it's important to, that's just important to do what you're doing now actually, because there's, yeah Well yes I know it is, but the exams are still on the same day breaks so you've got to find time to do the How? certain amount Well look at it this way it'll all be over by Saturday anyway There all be education is like today Well no I know it is im , I know it's just, it's important to involve yourself and Yeah but David has decided to involve himself now, in the last year of it, the last time of his year yeah, but can he could of done that in his fourth year and his third year No he, no he can't cos No, I won't, I want to do it I, I yeah I didn't get involve with it, I mean I got involved in it and I did it I wasn't actually If there's one, if there's one next year I will, depending on what it is of course I did I Mm but I wouldn't, I wouldn't mind next year, but it's just too much hassle just at the moment, and if you look hardly anyone out of our year's in it are they? No. But David's decided to get involved in this in his sixth year coming up to his A levels Look it's four days and he's had his hair cut ah, ah Yeah, he had to borrow the money off me to do that It'll only, it'll be over on, over on Saturday, I'll have, once I've seen Pauline, I'm gonna, I'm gonna get, get in touch with her on Saturday then I'll get my geography project done, I can't do anything until I've got this, bloody project out the way, can I? That's what Crawley said to me wasn't it dad? What? Get the geography project out the way first Yeah wasn't it? Yeah Yeah have you done it? He's got this thing to do with his computer when he can get hold of it to get the computer But I've done , I've done a lot though haven't I? Yes you have been doing, you have been working on it yes, yes Up to up to this last week when you've been doing Yeah them, yeah But what can I do, I can't be two places at once Oh no, no If says you've got to do that, you've got to do that nothing, Miss No it's right, now, now what Miss doesn't do actually mate, eh? Miss asked, asked me and Claire and Lisa all at the same time Yeah to do it, and yes What about Jane, is it Jane? Yeah who lives out at Tidybig? No Lisa, Lisa lives out at Tidybig What's that girl who comes in the Datsun? Lisa Lisa, what about her parents, are they well off? Well The man from down er he was in the club tonight he was in the club, yeah Who? The trouble maker The computer man's husband er son No the computer, in the corner , er Yeah, he was in the club tonight Mr or young They're doing well is it, ah, they used to be su , according to everyone he was such a so and so, he er, he's, he used to be barmy, he was like the clo , close barmy man and he used to like chase people around with bricks and stuff and everyone used to hate him and like Julian and Andy used to beat him up all the time How old is he? Dunno, seventeen, eighteen Mm I erm he was in there with this other lad Jane, no not Jane, Lisa What the but they've got erm, I erm, a massive mortgage on it Mm like a really big mortgage, but I wonder if they, is she going to university, or hoping to? Yeah Is that, is that the larger one? That's Nicola That's Nicola isn't it? Somebody wants threaten the staff in the Abbey National It was you It was your dad with the wig on I recognise you mate a wig without glasses, yeah How bloody useless They threaten them to I bet they asked them to fill in a form for it Excuse me Sorry can you just fill in a form? dad, dad we're not giving up just at the moment I'm sorry but we can't do it What do you mean? You this is a French private building society We're not giving out mortgages at the moment I'm sorry we're not giving money away today Yeah, but if you would just like to fill in a form, we will be with you as soon as possible In the next three years Oh this is Rilate Is this, is this us? Yeah I'll switch it off a second then Didn't see anything and when you use yeah, when you speak it flickers Oh right, so it's like the erm Is it recording now? Yeah So anyone can get well if everyone goes Sshh yeah You go there God he only looks about five Mark , don't he look like Mark though? No He does No he doesn't I reckon it was Mark Well you would if you thought it was peculiar wouldn't you? I think Oh that was the erm, yeah Yeah about the train spotting and all that they said didn't they? Yeah We knew it was didn't we mum? Mm Cor look at all this lot they've got Oh, I've pinched it all you nicked that how do you possibly get that out of somebody's house? Well it's like those lads that time who tried to nick a snooker table, they got it, they got it about a hundred yards so they just left it in the middle of the road See those paintings at the back, I reckon we should of had one of them Why don't you phone in and pretend it's yours? No, we'll, we'll take that one in off the wall, right A nice little table, you'd think somebody would recognise that wouldn't you? Yeah Or that chair at the back Look, I'll tell you what, we'll, we'll hide that one and we'll pretend that, that's Jane was yesterday Jane, what, er at yeah, she, erm they got into the kitchen, but mm see, you'd think someone would recognise that wouldn't you? Mm Ah when they were painted weren't it? Oh Oh I thought it was nice yeah that's nice isn't it? Mm Mm I don't like that Look at all those paintings out, have one of them They're easy to steal though aren't they paintings? Yeah What Remember that fellow at work who walked into that gallery and just put it under his coat? Yeah Yeah and walked out with it He tried to flog it on the bus Is that yes please Please Yes please oh it's got hearts on three Two Right, let's go round photographing all the chairs You haven't got anything of real sentimental value anyway have you? Why do you mean? Well nothing that you What about me? no, no you know, that you're absolutely Well no, but I wouldn't want to be able to replace these at the prices that these cost us, unless I'm gonna sell it all when you die, get loads of money and then buy some stools to sit on, what Ooh dear, oh blimey you don't, you don't realise all this, the time's going on of these organise crimes, you never hear about them No you never hear about any of them, do you? What? You know all the murders that go on, and everything No you don't hear about any murders do you? Someone's trying to get into the toilet with dad Mummy, mum What? Go on then Who's come in? Good lord I bet that's, this is when they started to get, get in Oh yeah Ta, thank you Oh ace mum Mum your glasses they've steamed up oh dear oh dear, I'd hate to have a broken jaw Now what you gonna do? I'll be running the other way you'd think there'd be loads of people going to pubs and stuff wouldn't you? I don't know how all these people notice these things, I never notice anything like that You don't keep your eyes open do you? Do you? Mm Do you notice things like that?, oh actually if it was down to the What did you say? Oh don't it's only been on for about er, the last half an hour it's not it's a cross a crucifix is got bigger on it. I wondered when you'd say that Helena, with your little bit of wisdom Well it's not my fault is it he's illiterate What a know all I'm not a know all Sshh What Yes you are, you're a know all Helena is a know all Shut up it's the only way anyway Tim the airman, Tim the airman, er, er, er, er You on the tape Yeah, oh funny with that I think you'd better tape erm, put that on and tape it No a police officer, what's he been doing for the last Well he might not he might not two months work for them any more You recognise them don't you? Mm, I suppose He might work for somebody else, or not working weekends Just send it to the prison and they say yeah, you know send their photographs and everything and people Yeah look at that and they'll say that's, that's that So and so and all that, yeah You know six months, can you remember it, that yeah It's just that, that's overcome as won't it, just might, might Yes just that slight thing, yeah, yeah and that fills in with five other things Yeah it makes it up like Right, I'm off to bed 'Night Goodnight Oh he's so childish sleepy tight Don't let the beddy buggies bity Don't let the beddy buggies bite you Personally I think you're flipping barmy Perhaps we are Oh does my voice sound funny on there though, oh er What? Just Ah I bet they do though if it's the same people that's operating, they're going round murdering people Serial killers in Lincoln Well my only sunshine Oh I Ruby Wax pain in the backside I can't Ruby Wax Oh I like her I'm off to bed What's my jealousy? Jealous you greedy pig I am I've just become somebody dumb No you haven't What are you holding it for? because against me Why don't you put it in your pocket? Cos it won't make any noise then Pick it up, stick it on your pocket No like so, see Oh how special does that look? On your tie No, I'm not sticking it on my tie Can't we have a big conversation, please, juice and, oh and there's third years there, no, I'm not, no, I refuse You refuse, oh I want it I've got to go down to graphics Let's go you did promise I did promise yeah Anyway I've got a question, I'm asking about the, the availability of a green spray can Hiya Ally ah you take the piss so bad Mm, nice bum What I think I'm going to elope How's that for excitement, I can see, I can tell don't be silly squeeze his brief line Ah Hi I'll hold it for you. Sure I'll be able to come down, I'm not gonna get told off or anything like Course you're not , I'll just say Oh who with Claire? nobody Nobody see so, I do, you're not going to get killed, I just say Mr you threatening Mike and he'll go no Helen because I'm incredible scared of you and I'll go I know you are I bet he doesn't, is Edward doing Adidas? No only me she's designing er swimming costumes Oh is she? Let me see yours er what, what, what Have you still not done anything? Well I've done my introduction That's it that's all she's done and analysis and that's it Well done Helena there's loads there isn't there just so much Where's that that bit you did on erm That one little, oh, how special they're not even They're not supposed to be Oh good they're suppose to be like that, that's my best bit that I'm doing well Helena Yeah do you think we're gonna do some work today? I suppose, I better do not at all Oh sorry I slipped Oh, oh What was Christian, was Christian a great help was he? He was I liked the bit when you were going I don't know what to do I haven't got a clue what to do do what we do, just walk away Go whoopsy-daisy, bye then right I'm going down to graphics well so I like school work course we're not gonna get done, got Mr under my thumb Where we doing it? Pardon, graphics room, what other room? lock the door to let themselves in, so obviously we don't want anybody in here. OK Alright? Oh what a shame I won't be able to do my homework, watch me weep what it's glue and stuff, that's all It's all the grease and metal and, ooh grime Oh no what a shame I won't be able to do any work, oh boo hoo I am so upset about that Now what you gonna do then, what you gonna do, have you got one more lesson? I've got one more lesson this afternoon Yeah, but you ain't gonna do loads in one lesson are you? Yeah, I'll be able to finish my one design Ooh one design that, that one with the lines on, I've got to spray that green Why? I thought you were supposed to be designing a I am, that's the design to go on it I'm gonna have to go and put it back now Is it locked, no they go out to the pub on a Friday Oh do they? Yeah Well dear me what a shame I don't know teachers eh, who'd have them? I can't answer that so er, what's this design then? That's what I'm doing, except that it's not gonna look like that any more I like the arms on the t-shirts Well of course it's filling, just a quick sketch isn't it? Yes I mean you know I can't draw Wonderful, what does that say? What's it supposed to say? Wimbledon Oh that's brill, I must admit that's really good, OK No it isn't it's rubbish Don't let me mock you, it's really good It's pathetic and you know it No, no, no I didn't say can I just have a quick look at your worse Where'd you stick this? Stick it in my, your losing my bits of paper, all my importantly file bits of Oh wow! What a hairstyle I know it's cool isn't it? I've got to go and do some work Have you, why? Why? only a folder A folder, oh Yeah no it isn't, he, he said that's rubbish oh did you hear about oh yes you were there when we put hair In her shoes and she put them on? Yeah And she, she had a right go at me yesterday, right, er, this afternoon she goes, oh I took it out before I put me shoe, me foot in it, killjoy She probably didn't What's a matter with that, I think it's good I know except for the knees What? The knees are a bit erm I'm sorry, I'm sorry I'm not a bubbling Picasso It's erm, yes, actually the skirt's not, oh well it's your drawing, I like the, you've got the shoulders and the head right, I can never do that, I could never get the portions right give me just a little more time that's only what I've written in my analysis and that You haven't done nothing yet, so how can you analyze it? Oh Is it analy analyzing it? Mm, where do I stick this now Helena? Put it back in my folder. Did you have a nice game of football? Did you have a nice game of football did you? Can we join you, can we? We're real demons with the goal we are Excuse me, I am no cos I'm not into volleys are we, we'll tackle them breaking their legs and kicking them in their bollo I mean balls, in the, in the, in the Testicle area Let's go and sit down in the thing Are we? Ah, I don't think I could, you know where you going? no, come on oh no, it's nice and quiet, oh hello sorry but we're not taping this conversation or anything. It's come off actually Helena Who's is it? Is it? Oh it's mine, it's mine It's not hers really, let's have a look Ah Isn't it wonderful you should hide it a bit more than that Well you can't really, but no one notices, but I'm not doing it on purpose, it's for a survey, I get twenty five pounds for, mm, watch me weep Mm, and what do you do on the survey? Just record my conversations to everyone Why? I'm doing a survey Who? This er dictionary company I don't believe you A dictionary company? You don't buy a dictionary company Where do you think it's coming from Are they gonna, are they gonna hear this now? No they're not They are I thought it was they are honestly aren't they? Oh erm, where did you I am doing this honestly where did you see this then in a magazine or something? No, my, they came round to my house honestly I swear it on my mother's grave it's not it's my Walkman, they gave me a Walkman, they gave me twenty tapes, I'm not joking Let me have a look at this Walkman I don't believe you had Smell of garlic? Might be my on me sandwiches No it's not I've just had a Polo all they're looking at is like what kind of accents you talk in Oh god they've got a great big problem with Helena then and what kind of Oh no and what kind of words like different people use At the end of the tape you only get, I think you really needed Did she send for you? No she said see you, bye Bye It's not on again is it? Yeah smell of garlic it might be my cheese and onion sandwiches No it's not cheese and garlic I've just had a Polo, do you want one? No thanks Stop putting it on Helena no I'm not I told you, you never get into drama school We are now in the changing rooms, it's really boring there's lots of smelly stuff like Iona's bag a pair of knickers They're not knickers it's a flipping Cami camisole, Iona's knickers, oh yeah she's gonna leave her knickers on the floor isn't she? Shall I put some wet in that? about about this bra top thing she's got and how it's got a hole in it and she was trying to think back how it got this hole in it and she remembered that Mark put his fingers through it Andy No it was Mark , I can remember it happening when she what she can't force him I went out with him he does, he looks just like him. Emma went out with him for about two months Did she? no Did I see him when we went to the fair, I see at the and with those boys Blonde one I don't know to tell you the truth Was Mark there? Was Mark there? I think so, I think he was there yes he was, yeah he was he was the tall blonde one no they haven't, I'm just gonna, I don't care, any more what? Who's it from? Erm I'm sweating like anything especially if it's tighter Oh She better not pull it anyway, I, I, I was I asked three teachers where she was and they said she wasn't in and they didn't know where she was went to staff room and nobody knew he was She went to the staff room, they said she wasn't in the staff room, but then she left Mrs anywhere she went, who's Mrs Yeah I've got two English teachers today you're not fat I am You're not Oh I know it's huge I am, it's grotesque isn't it? Mm I'm obese Do you want to know why I'm wearing two pairs of knickers because she wets herself She won't tell us the truth, but I know it, she wets herself, she doesn't want it to show on the chairs in school incontinent I think that's so Oh no, our dog needs one of them my dog's incontinent I can't think straight, I really can't Oh yeah, huge you know, is it you walk in and there's a few you know the pub yeah, you, right by Next, the bottom entrance to Next, there's a sports shop there Oh I know it I searched for Christmas and I wanted it you got it? Anybody else? hello What's that, is that a microphone? Yeah Why? Taping everybody's conversation eh, oh, they've just all fallen to pieces, here you can have the rest Compilation what? Ah gee Compilation I've got about two here I'm taping it now Shit I am Why are you? A survey thing Are you being serious? Yeah no she's not you can't show this because I didn't put a bra on she's got a microphone on her blazer She has I have, yes it is Testing, testing three, four, five I can't count rewind it, let's have a listen I ain't got the headphones I don't believe you It is let's have a look OK this conversation was between Alison Nina, Helena, Caroline and somebody who is unknown, OK What you gonna do? Ask her for it I am, she's alright, she's In very small doses Yeah, she's always been alright with me, you know, so I can't say about anybody else, I mean she's already, she's always been really nice to me, but like them people she goes around, well she used to go around with Lisa and Vicky and all that lot and when she used to go around with them she used to be bitching them off behind their back and going oh you're my best friend, to their faces. It's like me and you really, huh, I know I bitch by you I'm saying how much I hate you, just all the time. I suppose it's a bit like me and Joanne really I mean I'm bit er nasty to her behind her back really, only to her Yeah not anybody else about her she's alright actually, sometimes she just aggravates me though mind you I don't know her though No I mean she's a, she's a nice enough person but she just gets in a strop so easily, you, you know Maybe she needs to grow up a bit more Yeah probably I think she'll always be like it though, cos her mum's just the same, she's just like her mum, you know her mum got in a strop every day because she couldn't go round, down the club and have a fag, her mum's given up smoking, so Joanne's really worried now oh silly old Jo mm I know someone who had that done and then later on they had their voice box taken out, cos he had cancer of the throat, ooh, oh they cut them out why? Because they can't speak Yeah, he couldn't speak after that no I if I were you, that is just use them as leggings, leggings with a hole in, that's a good idea oh no way, that is Are all the girls outside? Aha Yeah they've all gone to yeah see you don't tight, you'll rip them. Honestly I went like that on a pair are so thick that it Oh god, having problems putting a pair of tights on Are they a nice colour? What colour are those? Nearly black Erm nearly black Who'd wear God knows, my mum no they're not Oh that's nice they look alright on me you wouldn't have to worry about, you wouldn't have to worry about trousers or skirts or legs You'll probably wear or something stupid like that they look nice heck, oh my knees face each other, it's sick So do mine no it isn't, we to it anyway Spread out just look at that, got bow legs, isn't it awful? You've been playing too much football I have not you're born with rickets mine are too thin at the ankle, looks sick oh yeah, yes you have don't bow Yeah but they're fat, they're horrible, they are, they're all purple at the ankle, not like she's got thin mm and a tidy pull oh I'll have just a quick go of it did he, you don't pull them if you've got a, a hole in already because that's death cos you see like that not like, like with that one there you see I've just cured that one look, that one with Mm, can't, I dunno What? we'd better go Mind me shoe Don't be so nasty I'm sorry Am I gonna get any backup here? What else do you want? Do you want a fishburger or do you want an egg? Er oh decisions, a fishburger please. A fishburger, righty Oh Jo can have a bit of a party, bit of a rave died and he got to heaven Yeah Erin, Erin and Brian stuck up again today Oh did they? it was really funny Mine's not very strong he called her childish Mm so she had a bit of a benny it was Where does dead funny where does Brian hail from? Brian? Yeah Dunno round here I think Does he? not Greenlands, maybe Woodrow South so he probably wouldn't get on too well with someone from Oh I'm sure that not everybody's Well she comes out with such a load of claptrap, she don't know what she's talking about most of the time ah, are you and dad gonna buy a box each? Are you gonna buy a box and I'll get rid of the other two to Joanne and Emma? No I'll buy a box Cos I might be able to cart them off to Joanne and Emma to give them to their mum's on Mother's Day Mm, well you can buy me a box for Mother's Day, that's a good idea innit? We never buy you anything on Mother's Day, you get a card and be happy with it Er, well I've decided I want something this year Oh, I want two presents a year for birthday, christmas and children's day There isn't one I've just invented one Now, well you can't have one, you can't have a children's day cos you don't do anything Yes we do, we give you all the love and support you need. Ha. I was talking about you today in English Oh goodness Well they were talking about the eleven plus you see Oh and they said whose parents took it? So I went and he er, and she goes er, and did they both pass? She was expecting me to say yes, I goes no my mum failed and er, and, yeah she said but your father liked it did he? And I goes no he hated it, he used to get detention every day for not wearing his cap he hated it and he didn't do any work. Cos she was expecting me to trot out something like, yes both my parents went to grammar school like everybody else whose parents went, you know, they were all saying, yes my parents went to grammar school and they got these and these have got these qualifications and everything, I couldn't believe it though, there's a load of people in our class and like you know, all the parents are all these things and they're not exactly brilliant, the children Mm you know, like Olivia, er, both her parents are teachers and all this business Mm er, you know she's not they don't have any time she's not much to shout about , you know, intelligence-wise Who was that with Miss ? mum had failed, but she said why? I goes well all the, all the questions were matters science and she weren't any good at that Would, would, would erm, grandma and granddad let you go anyway? Would they of let you go if you'd passed? Oh yeah course they would of done Well some p , parents didn't like it did they? Didn't want their children to go to it No, well it was a fixed system anyway Yeah if you were well to do, you, you went I mean the the grammar schools, in the grammar school like your dad went to I mean it was, it was a really, you know it was a grammar school, it wasn't anything like it is now. Well, there was two grammar schools in Lincoln though weren't there? Well there was the City school and the Lincoln school The Lincoln school The Lincoln school was, is by the hospital weren't, weren't there a girls? There was the, the, the Chri , Christ Hospital which was the girls high school Weren't there, weren't there another boys and girls one or whatever, or were there just the boys No there was just and the girls? no there was one girls school which was Christ Hospital Yeah which was up Lindon Hill Mm and there was the City school which was on Monk's Road, and there was the Lincoln school which was on Brambury Road which is Where was now Christ Hospital Yeah, where was Christ Hospital then? Christ Hospital was on Lindon Hill Where? Christ Hospital was Where the old, where the college is now that art college? Yeah, you know, half way up Lindon Hill there's three stone steps Yeah and you went up there and there's them building sort of on the top isn't there Yeah that piece, and so you start go up this building across, and it's like it's, it's the school there Right and that's Christ Hospital, or was Or was and that was the girls grammar school and then there was the City school where your dad went and there was the Lincoln school Was that co-ed? that come out at Bram , Brambury Road, what? Was it boys and girls? No, no, there was the girls school and there was the two boys school That's a bit unfair There wasn't another grammar, there wasn't another girls grammar school, oh what was Spring Hill? Oh great, I don't know, Spring Hill was something Girls? Yeah, it was a, yeah Spring Hill was a grammar school, it was a girls grammar school Oh Yeah because erm, poor thingy, the girl I went to school with she went on to Spring Hill when she was fifteen, see you could go on to grammar school when you were fifteen then as well as going at eleven Yeah if you passed, if you failed the eleven plus and if you were clever enough, you could take an exam, like an entry exam to go, it's sort of if you improve from eleven to fifteen you could take an entry exam to go into grammar school then, so that you could take your G C E's Like erm, but, like Miss says some of the stuff on it was so rubbish, I mean like, there was somebody she knew, who their son failed the eleven plus twice and now they've got their P H D Yeah, mm they failed, but they failed their eleven plus twice Mm but now they've got their P H D Mm, mm you know, it's so stupid innit? It's too young an age which to, erm Assess like that judge , judge people and, and, and, split them like that Mm Too young. I mean it might be alright for the more intelligent people or whatever, cos they get the best teachers then don't they? But I mean for the other people it's just, it's just rejection innit, you're not good enough Well I'm not stupid , I mean I wasn't stu , when I was at the junior schools in the country I wasn't stupid No but I went from there straight to there taking me eleven plus Yeah I never had any practice at anything or, and I should imagine they did, I don't know, I don't know how it worked Yeah but I never had anything, I just went from one to the another, and I had to take it in the hall one day and I wasn't, I was never very good at maths anyway, not that kind of maths. Not algebra oh we had this, we I could never remember how to do them, I mean if somebody, if someone sat with me and explained it to me and then I, and then I could do it, I would do Yeah it then for that lesson, but after that I couldn't remember again how to do it That's, that's just like me that is, if I get into a rhythm and someone gives er, I can do it then, but if I just sit on a page, I think oh how do you do that? Mm, I can never remember the formulas, like your dad said formula for such and such a thing is so and so and that, but I could never remember them so I was no good then, because I couldn't remember it Mm, them nice and then there was St Joseph's which was private Mm mm there was only one in Redditch What grammar school? Where was that? Ulster grammar Where? Ulster Ulster , Ulster Ulster no, that's in Ireland Ulster Ulster Ulster's in Ireland Ulster erm That's nowhere near Greenwich No, but it's where all the went but you ain't good enough No, I'm afraid I'm er was a bit thick If you weren't, you went to Dudley High I was good at English history, sport You ought to try taking some of them, honestly they're so easy the exams are, like history, ah, talk about easy, spartan erm, you could G C S E, P E mum I don't think I could now I could of done then probably You remind me of bit, eh, you're like a bit what Joanne's like, except Joanne's better at maths but she's not very good at English, like when they were doing Animal Farm, I had to explain that it was a parody of the Russian revolution and everything and she just sat there with her mouth open. What did she go to see the other day that she reckon was a load of rubbish? Duke of Duke of thingy, it was er on at the Palace it was erm Duke of, there was an advert for it in the paper the other day Mm she didn't know it was an opera you see Oh it was an opera was it? Yeah and I didn't like to say anything What did she go from school? Yeah oh I should imagine Joanne not erm, but, you see, they would of been the most aggravating little gits there, because as soon as they found out, they all started messing about then, for three hours it was on, could you imagine sitting in there with them lot for three hours? What about the teachers? I would of chucked them out and Mrs yes, but mum, you're not a teacher at the Leeds High Mm If you were it probably be a bit different than it actually is dad said to me once that if he, that if he'd like been in charge of it we'd of gone to the Leeds and not St Augustine's Yeah he would of been cos he was, he was, he was on about that, erm the said to him about it when we first came and er, he said about when, when we were on about sending and I don't, they're going to a Catholic school and he says oh the Catholic schools around here aren't very good and the, the Leeds and that are the best Yeah well he's all in with that isn't he? What a load of rubbish He's, he's the flipping governor isn't he? He's one of the governors Where? Up there What at the Leeds, not at the Leeds he's at Dingleside Well he's at the Dingleside but he's involved with the P T A there Oh well and he's bound to bull up his own place isn't he? I mean no one 's gonna say oh yes my school's the best I don't think so, I don't, they're too, they're too big What? that's what I don't like about it It's not, it's no bigger than our school Isn't it? No It's not got the same discipline It's about the sa , well it's might, just a little bit bigger than our school, about another hundred or something, but that's, that's a drop in the ocean when you've got seven hundred there that's like one in each class or something you know, extra Still there's no discipline No discipline ah, no discipline and er, we were like, we was on about, you know like we were talking about the education system and everything in English and you know I told you they were on about people changing at eleven and everyone else in the class wanted the thirteen system except me, it's only cos what they're used to Oh yes what they're used to, what they always, yeah, I know but I mean, but like I said, I said, I mean, I went, I went to the like I changed then, I mean to be quite honest I didn't like it, I didn't like it What the same people in school? no I didn't , I never liked it, whether that was because I knew we weren't gonna be there, or, you know, I just, I was only there six months Mm you would of done eventually, you would of got in alright, once you were settled and that I, you know, I just I would of been alright if it was a bit more organised I don't I think know it never seemed quite very organised they sent it back, I think, I thought the twelve was, was quite good actually, I thought the twelve when they went up at twelve, but then when they changed it back to the junior and infants it was the elev , the eleven and it was a bit, I think it, you know eleven might be perhaps too young, I think twelve is a reasonable Mm age. But you see I was thrown from one teacher all the time Miss all the time Yeah to that to, to German , French, Latin Yeah er, you know proper algebra and all that kind of stuff and it, and it was, I think I would of been better if I had of gone to Our Ladies cos I don't Well I don't know I mean it would of still been the same if you'd of gone to Our Ladies, it would of still been one, one One teacher Yeah was there? Yeah I think so I know, but yeah because they were the only one who would didn't we? I know, but that, at St. Hughes you're stuck in a little rut aren't you? I mean Well, the trouble is you got to be the eldest and you were the eldest for such a long time You mean we were the eldest for five years there Yeah because you go to be the eldest and then just at the time you should of gone on and become the youngest, it changed so you were the eldest all the time Yeah and that made the difference I think, that probably made the difference That particularly didn't bother me it was the regime, the sudden change in the regime Yeah you know I think I would of got used to it Oh I but you know. I feel surprised that I put, how thick was she? What? No, well you're not thick are you? So this is where you two get all this what? supposedly cleverness Supposedly, when I, when I told Nicola the other day that you reckon that I don't do enough work, she says cor blimey she was shocked she was, shocked oh do it, do it as near to the microphone as you can mum What she doesn't want does she I don't think er, I don't think you do do work, enough work, either of you really I mean if I sat an eleven plus today, by what, if they ever brought it back, it'll be a lot different than what it was then I it'd be easy wouldn't it? It wouldn't of been easier Well it would, it would of, it'd be easier, I think it would Not to everybody it wouldn't Well I think, I think, I think to be honest they've all got easier I'd say they'd got harder, you should see some of the things we do in maths mum, it's not easy No I know that , that's it's not easier now, you know, but I think er that would be easier wouldn't it? You know, I mean you, the problem with you and dad is, cos you never got particularly involved with it you don't, you don't know exactly what's happening at school, you don't know what we do. Well I've never got particularly involved with this school, I got involved with the other schools I know, but, mum that, that was, that was five years ago, I mean I've moved on a great deal since then Oh yeah, I know it's not, no I know it's not easy, I don't try to make out it's easy I mean some, some of them are what, what I would deem as fairly easy, I mean I find history easy, but not everyone does Oh no, I know that, I know that I mean some people find some things easy, some people find some things hard, don't they? But I mean that's er, a fact of life You know, but I mean, there's no way easy, especially the science and maths equals I times R, voltage and resistance in electricity and magnesium what? but er, that fibbing git Tim right he's got a locker next to me, and he's got velcro on his coat and if I'm standing at my locker and he takes his coat out of, out of his locker, it always flipping pull my tights with the velcro Mm that's the third time he's done it, I had such a go at him You'll have to charge him I'll have to I had a bit of major benny actually ha it was rather shocking wasn't it? Mm Not that I ever have major bennies or anything No, no I hadn't had a benny for a few days actually Oh I'm doing well thought I died and gone to heaven I don't like plain chocolate it's horrible Shit take a pardon? Nothing, sarky remark,on my own just Ha, there was this girl in the club last night and somebody shouted at her and she went what? Oh dear I said to your dad Jesus Ladylike as common as muck what she goes I thought I could give dad some of these and then eat them all myself Mm for his birthday Well why not, I don't think that'll go down very well Don't you? No Well I'm really shocked mum, I was really going to do it honest Mm, I don't think so Helena Rosanne Eh what you do to me all my chuck me in there, chuck me in the closet hit me with your rhythm stick, hit me hard and hit me quick Hit me, hit me what's the time six o'clock isn't it? What? Six o'clock What's six o'clock? The time it's half six Oh half six that was it yeah That's what it said on his little card Yes we thought he was going to somewhere else at six o'clock Nicola didn't believe me when I told her she thought I was playing a joke What? When I told her about this Didn't she? I goes er, oh I'm recording it for this thing, she goes oh yeah my beard, ha, I was going I am, ha, but she didn't believe me, can I have some sauce please? There was definitely no chance of a walk that day, bit of Jayne Eyre there for you Mm Oops, that's what I call an honourary delight this is Mhm indeed What? Indeed Indeed what exciting lessons did you have to do? Nothing too exciting Well I had er, oh, what did I have? Something P E, maths, English and graphics, science, science, maths, English and graphic How comes you're so, you're so interested in the eleven plus and everything? We're having a discussion about erm, whether it should be brought back Oh I said definitely not, cos it makes rejects of people in society, therefore a what which they all do in my class, cos they're all thick I couldn't believe it right Well they're all supposedly got intelligent parents by the sou , by the sound of things Oh not all of them, I was sat, I, I was sat there All thick like me and I went who's applying to go on to university or education after eighteen, so I put up my hand, turned round and flipping Stuart and Danny had put their hands up and I just went oh god, they're gonna do really well and Terry, and Terry, we're talking Terry, Terry who hasn't got a brain cell to rub together What, er, mm, he's in your class ain't he? so ah that boy, this is the one who said I think we should be allowed to hit girls he supposedly, he, two short planks does not describe this boy, even Miss hates him that was it, she, we were having this discussion right in education, she goes, are you cynical about education Terry, he goes, no, he goes, oh she goes why? He goes I don't know what cynical means I said, ah no and everyone in the class just cracked up sometimes you wonder, you wonder whether he does it on purpose he must do it on purpose, no one can be that thick How many was thinking of going on? Ninety five per cent Yeah, oh but erm like Vicky who's got, in her English folder, this is Vicky Vicky, she's got in her literature she's got nine A's and one B and in her other I don't know what she's got, ten A's probably, mm she's not going to, she wants to be a nurse Oh does she? and er, like she said aren't you Vicky and she goes no miss, mm, you can't be a nurse till your eighteen No, no you can't go into student, student so like, you know, she's gonna stay on, do A levels and then go into it Mm because she might as well have some A levels just in case or whatever, but erm you know I, you know she's, you know, I can understand that actually, she's being quiet sensible about it she said there's nothing else I want to do and I might as well do something that I enjoy, you know, you've only got one life haven't you when it comes down to it? Well if that's what she wants to do, that's what she wants to do, innit? Mm, like, her dad says to her why don't you be a doctor and she, but she don't want to, you know, she wants to be in a hospital and that, she don't want to end up in general practice Well she doesn't necessarily end up in general practice does she? No, but But I mean for the first year she won't be in, if she goes into student, she'll be in college I know, but it won't take as long for her to get there as it would if she becomes a doctor Oh no, three years ain't it a student? Mm But then you get on hand experience right hands on I should say, not on hand but erm learning how to clean pot pa , er bed pans and make beds and things like that Clear up sick, that's a favourite job isn't it? Mm Yeah, I thought of being that once but I wouldn't mind it in the wards, but I wouldn't want to be in the operating theatre, I don't know why, the blood don't put me off or anything, but You do have to go into the theatre for so long I think Mm but then you can, you can specialize you see, I mean some nurses go into the theatre all the time once they've qualified Yeah I think they do have to go in, you have to go into each area But like, I mean I don't mind the blood or whatever, and if they were doing little things, I could handle it, but like, like on that op , operation that woman was having the other day and they cut her open and they just pulled Well they do and that, that, that's the thing that makes me retch, not the cutting, it's when they just pull it apart Well I know when it rips ooh, they could of cut it Well they do cut it No they cut the skin and then they just pulled it apart Yes because it's not the like that underneath, if they didn't pull it apart they, they cut down, if they cut down with a knife they could cut into something couldn't they? Oh, er It could be dangerous so you, you open up the top and then the other parts the lining Ah Yeah but what they ripped was all fat, all her fat, ooh Yeah, but you see, you've got the, you got all the other things in, down, down, underneath, well I mean if you started going in with a knife and you started cutting them I mean you could cut an artery or anything couldn't you? Which could be a bit nasty, you know and then she'd say buy a little bag for me, a chick, a chick, a chick, a chickita who's turn is it tonight? Oh mine oh, I wish it was David, probably never get We've seen it on T V flower but, I was listening to myself on that Mm Oh is my laugh vile or what and my voice it sounds so idiotic That's cos you be a country yoke Yeah, that's it working. That's just lovely. Mhm. I'll I'll stick it under there. That's just lovely. Now is this just is this to to mind me Aha. I was gonna ask you. And the first one would be where . That would be Sanday was it? Aha, he was Sanday. Mhm. At that time the erm there wasn't he wasn't undertaker. He was a joiner and on the islands the joiners had to do undertaking. Mhm. And any join Well not anyone but most of the joiners did the undertaking more or less in the area they were in. So would like the three different sort of areas of Sanday, the parishes, each have a joiner? Cross Well there was one Well father was in Cross but er there was one in what we called the South End. Aha. and he was getting to be an old man and he had actually stopped and then father would take er would be asked to do the undertaking in that part. Mhm. And er there was another m man a Mr Peace who had been Mhm. an undertaker and he lived near the centre of the island. Mhm. Near the village in Mhm mhm . And he did but then he was a lot older and he eventually stopped and er there would have been one at Woodhouse in Burness. But eventually Mhm. it it came to be that it was the older men usually that were asked to do it I mean the people I suppose maybe felt it was more suitable to have older folk coming in to their houses. Mhm. Mhm. And er and then he was the only one who did it. I see so the older chaps would just gradually Well he star I think probably the first He must have been a joiner for a wee while before he was you were just asked to do this the same I suppose as any other job any other joiner job Mhm. Mhm. on the island. Mhm, that was just part of the job then It was really part of the job. Mhm. Mhm. So did he Do you think he served time on the island with one of the older ones ? He served He served his time on the island. He was actually the oldest son of a farmer and er was expected to stay at home and the firm. Mhm. But he went and got himself an apprenticeship and then his parents saw that he Mhm. was really serious about being a joiner so he went and he served his time with a Mr at Woodhouse. Mhm And they did a lot of things just the old way you know, where they had the Mm. the pit and the the circular with a saw you know, the wood, they had to go down in a in a pit. I don't really understand it but the the apprentice went down in the pit of course and the older man was above and they worked this saw all this sawdust was coming Oh I see Yes something like that you know. Was it a handsaw? It was a hand sort of saw that they did this ripping of the wood with. Good grief. But that was but a again he served his apprenticeship as a joiner. Mhm. Not as an undertaker. He'd have been undertaking with this man. I see But it was all part of the job. A chap on Sanday was in Sanday. Aha this was a man who had been a joiner there for a long time. Mhm mhm. And was his son going to be a joiner as well? He didn't have a son this man, no he didn't . He didn't have a son. So he's be able to afford Aha. to take Oh well he he he had to take on a oh he could easily afford it because he was paid about five shillings in the year. And he got the p he I think he said his first years pay was five shillings. Mhm. And they got a harvest. So they were allowed to go they were allowed to go and work a harvest at a farm. Mhm. To make money. But then father didn't do that because he was staying at home and he was expected to do his harvest on the farm so his money was five shillings. And that was that. . Yes that's right. That was it. And his keep at home. he didn't have to. Aha yes Yes I've heard of that in South Ronaldsay it was a chap that was a smithy and they got to choose when they were in their in either the harvest or one season at the fishing. Oh it'll be the same idea aha. Yes. Aha. Mhm. And then how long would a apprenticeship take then? Aye well I think it was three years. And then they had to be a for a certain length of time before they would be a master joiner. Mhm. Mhm. So he would did he I'm not certain about that. Aha. Did he have to kind of sort of did he look on that as a profession to do beside the farming or did he Oh he just wasn't interested in farming. Right. Mhm. So did have to take them And he was Yes aha aha Piece work on the farm. Aha. Aha. I see right I get you. And then he would serve when when when the other was the Mr he trained under, was he one of the two older joiners on the island? He would have been one of the older joiners. Mhm. There might have been three of I don't know how many there were but he was one of the older joiners. Mhm. So would you be brought up on Sanday as well? Yes I was brought up on Sanday. Aha in Cross? In Cross. In Cross. And yes and how long would did he serve his whole er time on the island? Worked all his time on the island ? He worked he worked all his time on the island apart from the time he was in the army. He was in the territorials so he was called up Mhm. the Friday before the war started and was there until Mhm. he was demobbed. Mhm. he while he was away, there'd be just the older folk on the island I suppose so. Mhm. And he came back after and carried on? Aha. And he came back and carried on. Mhm. So the er the other joiners on the island, they acted as undertakers as well we discussed that. It was just seen as a normal part of the job then really . It was indeed aha. You just did what had to be done. And it Yeah. it had to be done. Ad what happened then when somebody died did you hear Well s Mm. Oh there's somebody that lived in the house in Aha. and you would he used to go to the house and Mhm. and er had to measure up the body because the coffins were made to measure. Oh I see. He had to go and they would I think actually sometimes had to lay out the body as well. Really? Aha. Aha. I because we didn't have any part of this being children I mean we just knew that he No mhm. somebody had died and Mhm. he used to go to the house and he'd measure up the body and I Mhm. think they laid it out as well and Mhm. then er they'd come back up. Mhm. So he would maybe get word from the head of the house or the nearest rel call on them . Yes the the the person most yes would call on him and Aha. Oh would this be sort of formal would the p other person be dressed in sort of black clothes or Aha . I would imagine they would have worn their black cap anyhow, that would be the respectful thing to do. Yeah. Aha. So you would kind of know when you saw what colour th that it would be that Well yes, aha. Yes they were they were calling for. And how much time did it take to make the coffin? Well I was just talking that over with er his apprentice and he said Mhm. it took them a long time to begin with when he started. Oh really? Aha. It took them I can't remember how many hours but it took them a long time. But then by the time they were fin he retired and they were finishing they were ta they were taking about less than half the time. Because they had staplers and before all the Oh I see. tacked everything was tacked Aha. and it took a lot longer. Aha. So just the new the sort of technology coming in Aye it would probably help a bit. And the two of them working together over a long time, they would work Aye. together more quickly. Mhm. So when he heard did he just start immediately then? Oh yes. Everything Aha. the whole household just Really. Mhm. The whole household was needed because the well he had a store of big boards Mhm. Mhm. for the sides had to be shaped. mhm. Well these had to be bent you see and they they saw a wee bit through them. Mhm. Mhm. But they also had to bend then. Yes to make them And they used hot water. They had er boiling water. Mhm. Mhm And the only way of boiling the water at that time was on the stove in the house. So everything that would hold water was put on the stove and er he did and then it they took it out to the Mhm. workshop and they would cover this board with woodcuttings like s what we call spills. Mhm. Mhm. And they poured the water and that held the heat in and then bent to the shape. For the sides. Oh I see. Aha. The bo the bottom would be cut to the size and shape. Mhm. And then the sides were moulded with the hot water to fit Moulded mhm. So you didn't need to cut the sides at all. It was enough just the hot water and the spills They I think they made small slits in it. I can't remember because we weren't in the. No. Really paying much attention to that. Mm. So that would involve your mother as well. Oh yes. She would Aha and also they had You see they had glue a glue pot. They had the glue had the glue they did a lot of gluing I suppose fixing on the material Oh I see so Mhm. And er the glue pot was also in the one this stove. It was a metal container Aha. with wa water boiling in it and a wee pot that fitted in the top. Oh I see. And it was great big, lumps of glue. Looked like huge gigantic pieces of toffee that he used to put in here and it melted and And was it sort of dark It was dark brown. Gooey stuff. Mhm. I can imagine a baby would just delighted. Yeah. Aha. Yes aha. Poking a brush in it and whirling it whirling it round. So would he call in extra help to make the coffin ? No. Just himself Just him just him himself and his apprentice. And er would you usually Was there a special time of anything that he would be told. Was it usually a Oh no they would come right away you see, because the body would have to be laid out when it was er Oh of course. Mhm. When it was . He went right away. Be practically the first person to know then wouldn't he? Mhm . First. Aha. Yes I would imagine so after the doctor. So in the beginning do you think you were speaking about a whole afternoon and an evening to make the coffin or all day? Oh much longer. Much longer. Between because before they got he went away and measured up the body and he also had sometime then you see he would have to go and put the body in the coffin. And before the funeral the they would he would probably have to take a window out of the house. Oh Because the coffin had to come out of the stayed in the house the b the Aha. corpse. And Yeah. Aha. I mean you like the ordinary houses are, there's no room and you could not bend the coffin with a person in it so they would have to take the window or the bedroom or wherever the corpse was Mhm. They took it out and sort of temporarily fixed it in so that they could get this out at the funeral and then he had to go back later and fix the window in. Good grief. Well that was in a c certain houses. Yeah. And If they didn't Just to to to put the coffin into the house, the wouldn't have to take a window out to put the coffin in I wouldn't Oh no they would get in alright. I would imagine yes. Well in most cases I would think so. Yeah. Mhm. So erm as well did you have any ? Oh yes we used to get the job of sewing up the wee cushions. Mhm. Inside the coffin that went under the head and the arms and the feet. And it was made of a sort of very I would think cheap starched er cotton. Be white? Yes white and and Aha. very decorative. There was sort of decorations that went in. Oh. As well they were they was not just plain yes it was bonny. So was was And er we they used to fill there They were just filled with woodcuttings. Mhm mhm. And they would be sent in and we would sometimes sew up the the cushions. Oh good heavens. And stuff them. Mhm. So was the material already with this decoration on it or was Oh yes. Aha. Aha. That didn't have to be sewn on by hand then Mhm. Everything was Mhm and was it sewn on decoration or was it printed? The decoration. I would imagine the cushions maybe were more plain. mhm. But they had sort of decoration that was tacked on or on the inside of the coffin. Oh I see. So was the inside of the coffin lined with cloth as well It was lined. Mhm. And then covers and trimmings round the edge. Ah. So would it And the outside then was covered with black. Ah A sort of well it looked like black wool but I mean it obviously was a brushed cotton I would say . Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. And er that then would be decorated round the edges with a sort of heavy lid kind of braid. Mhm. It had gold markings on it. Mhm. Mhm. Yeah. And then they had the handles and the tassels and then the top there was a tin sort of plate. Mhm. With a name on. And that also had to be done by hand. Father used to do that, he would sit in the evening then and he had to scratch on this b it was a like a tin plate with a black sort of area to scratch Mm. out the erm the name and age and whatever details wanted on this. And then it was painted with gold paint. I see. And would this metal plate and the strip of metal that went round the top, would that be sort of like ready made. I Yes aha. Yes came from some Aha. Ready made. And another thing that sometimes had to be done was writing out off er the they didn't put er notices in shop windows or anything. They always bid for funerals and I can remember folk on in being horrified at the idea that folk would put a notice in a window. In writing, telling folk about the funeral. Mhm. They always had bidding for the funeral and sometimes the family would write out the the bids. Oh I see, And it was all it they were they were special forms for it. Ah. Mhm. And you would the name had to be filled in and the time and the details. Mhm. And then the wee letter went in a envelope Mhm mhm. and it would be relatives that would do the bidding in a certain district. Mhm. Depending on where the person was known. I mean if they were known widely through the island they might have bids going further but it might just be your own district. Mhm. But sometimes that had to be written out as well at the house. Mhm. And sometimes it's just the person or the family would come and they would want I think they used to by these from the shop. I see. The for the bids Mhm so did they they give them up to the folk They went around and oh well they they couldn't post them because there was no post at the time. And post on a Wednesday, Friday and Saturday. Mhm mhm. So they they didn't post them they people did the bidding they just went round like a postman and Mm. Handed them And handed them handed them to the people. Handed them to the Aha. Mhm. And they would have a They were all dressed in the navy blue suits and their white and their black caps as well. Mhm. Yeah. And would women ever be bidders? No women didn't go to funerals. Aha. In Sanday. Mhm. Cos I've asked a few folk Aha. you know, and they've all said women had no part in that s er at all. Apart from Women apparently attended funerals in . But I can't find out why? Women attended funerals in I s did they not do it in Evay? I don't know, I don't know about that either. I don't know either. But er I can remember being in Evay and a funeral there and to me it was very strange because they carried the coffin from the kirk right down to the kirkyard at the pier. Mhm. Well you see in Sanday, they didn't do that. They took it first of all it would be in a cart drawn by a horse. A horse drawn cart. Mhm. Mhm. And then in er in a vehicle. It could even be a scho very often a school bus. Och really. You don't think long enough. Mhm. And the sprinkle what they call the sprinkler was a smaller car Mhm. and with the back door off you see, they would get that on that. Mhm Mhm. But they're quite long distances in Sanday you see. Yeah that's right. While on Evay it was shorter distances. Mhm. And the funerals were I would say, nearly always from the house. Yes. Not from a church. Not from the church. Mhm. So the women of the house would be involved. Yes. Mhm. But er they just didn't go to funerals. to me it was very strange. Mhm. I remember one funeral when I was a little girl at the school, was an old man who died, Benji he was I think he must have been the best the last in Orkney. And he died at we call it in Sanday and it was snow Mhm. so they couldn't get along the roads and I think the cof the probably the funeral was put off as long as they could put it off. And then they carried the remains across the fields to the Lady Kirkyard and that was past the school and I can remember us watching this procession going across the fields. But that was the only s And then of course in Sanday in the what we call the North End, Mhm. of the island, Mhm. they had the hearse. The ho the old hearse that er Yes there was a picture and that . Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. So you wouldn't you would just er mind er the kind of less fancy it wouldn't be particularly made like the one in the North End it was cart and a horse . No it was just a it was just a cart and a horse. Yeah. Mhm. And who would drive it you know, was it a special person that drove it? No it would just be the person that owned the Whoever owned it. who owned it. Mhm. Would lead the horse I would imagine. Mhm. Erm I meant to ask you about the inside of the the coffin was that plain white material or was it did it have this u pattern on it as well. Or did just the pillows have the I would think it would just be trimmings. But I I'm not right sure about that I don't remember . Mhm. But the coffi er the inside was w they had wax as well, the put on it. Oh really. On the wood. At one stage Aha. Mhm. What kind of wood would they be made from do you know? Well I would imagine it would be a very rough sort of wood, I don't know . Aha cos it would be covered. They were never left uncovered I see . Oh no no. They were always covered. Mhm. And a children's co a child's coffin would be white. Ah yes mhm . And I don't Mhm. s remember seeing one of these. just Mhm. Was there white coffin. any status attached to the kind of wood you had Oh no no status at all. Oh yes well you see, very occasionally, I'd heard of somebody having an oak cokin coffin. Mhm. Mhm. But there was no oak coffins in Sanday. I see. Except I mean, if anybody thought they were oak cokin th coffin that would have to come from somewhere else. Oh I see. That wouldn't be made then . enough to have a oak coffin that would have come from somewhere else everybody got the same. In Sanday. Yes. Occasionally someone who'd died Another type of undertaking was where somebody had died out of the island. Yeah mm. And that again all the arrangements would be made Mhm. but you didn't have the coffin making. The arrangements would be made and er oh well I never saw an oak coffin but we you'd hear Mhm. that and it probably wasn't oak at all it was probably just Yes. stained wood but er Yeah. It would look Aha. They wouldn't be covered then No. If they were I think that would have c been very of course but nowadays the Yeah. the black one would be more. Yeah. So what happened if somebody die off the island, did they have to send them An undertaker on the mainland and then the remains would come on this boat. In a coffin already ? In a coffin already. And the Aha. funeral company would meet the boat. Really? And er they would proceed from there to the I see. to the kirkyard. So would it be what was the boat serving Sanday then. Wouldn't be It would have been the old . Right. when I remember. Mhm. I see. So would there be any special arrangement then? Somebody to get the coffin off the boat or would it just be . I don't Well I imagine it would just come off with any other cargo. Yeah. Mhm. And then be straight onto the Probably probably. It would probably come off first I would imagine, I don't know . Mhm I don't really know because I was never at the pier when when a Mhm I'd gone out on the boat But er Mm. But all the bidding and the would be arranged Mhm. before they came up. Mhm. And there would be a funeral when the boat came and I mean when the boat came is just when the boat came. I mean it might come Yes The boat didn't come at any scheduled time. You knew when it was supposed to leave Kirkwall and it went past this island or that one but Mhm. and it came roughly at time. Mhm. And what about moving the if it was a a sort of burial on the island, how was the coffin moved to the deceased's house? Was that moved in the cart as well or was it just carried across to the deceased's house ? Oh well it couldn't have been carried because it was long di I don't know how cos I can't remember. But I guess they just got some way . Just Father would have arranged that likely. Aha. Would was it er I imagine that he would take it when he had a vehicle later on he would Yeah. probably take it in the back of that. Yeah. But early on you see he when I before the war he'd nothing was first of all a push bike Mhm. and he went to his work on and then a motorbike. Mhm. And sidecar but Mm. maybe the folk There'd be some arrangement made to get there but what it was I can't remember. Do you know if there was a special time that they did this at? Or did they choose a kind of evening do you know?or did it not matter? It would be arran a pre-arranged time. so that the folk were Aha. There was no sort of accepted time I don't think No accepted time I don't think so. No. No. No it wasn't a particular occasion or anything ? No no. Oh no I don't think so Mhm mhm. And I think if they . Yeah I've heard of that Mm mm . But that would be when the Aha. So it probably would be arranged. Aha. So do you think that the would happen as soon as the coffin got to the house ? I would imagine I would imag I would imagine so. Oh I see. That's another I didn't think But I would imagine so. And then you see the family would be there. Mhm. So the coffin would really arrive and then you Aha. would have the dressing. I would think so. Mhm. But that I think they were No no women would really see that of course. Aha aha. Oh well the women of the family would. Yeah. Everyone in the house. So the women would be at the Yes aha. Yes they just wouldn't be at the sort of burial side graveyard Aha. And er of course the coffin's left open and folk would go and Mhm. Well people would to the house to offer their Mhm. condolences and they would people were always asked if they wanted to see the remains. Mhm. Or do you just want to remember him as they used to Yeah yeah. Aha. But . Mhm yeah. That's true. Mhm mm. And would the undertaker also be responsible for the to lift the body into the coffin No that that would be they'd be expected Every person would have I imagine they would al well everybody had a white sheet just for this . Mhm. Yeah. Yeah. In case somebody dies. It was part of the equipment of the household. Yeah. the the some of them made their own shrouds. I would imagine so. Yeah. The shrouds to be the suppliers you know Aha. but I imagine some person would want to use their own Mhm. shrouds. Mhm. But mostly I would think it would be Mhm. And would the would your father be at the funeral as well or would he Oh yes. Yeah. he would He would he would be organizing the taking of the salt and the he would stay until the Mhm. until the grave was filled in. Mhm. So did he take part in that as well? He'd fill the grave in Yes. I I remember once a cousin came it was a trip day Mhm. and this a c a cousin came out for to Sanday Mhm. and he asked at the pier for my father Mhm. because he was he we didn't know he was coming. So they says, Oh that's this was pointed out to him. So he said, Oh I w yes but he says, just come along with him, so he went to the funeral and then he Yes. First things first. So he always remembers the time he went to this He's no idea who's funeral he was at but he just went along and then he was taken to see the family. That's quite good. And another occasion father said, erm he said the kirkyards weren't very well laid out. Mhm? I mean they'd gravestones here, gravestones there and Mhm. Sometimes when the grave digger dug the grave, they would find er that it was somebody else's grave and they had o start again. I've heard of that Aha. And er on this particular funeral er the grave, the whole company was there Mhm. and this man came up to me father and he says, that is not the right grave, you've been told. The family had you see the family had to come and tell him where the grave was. Mhm. And then he would arrange for the grave digger to dig the grave. I see. Mhm. Only they'd been told the wrong grave. On no. So father says, Well just keep quiet about it until the funeral's over. Mhm. And then when they're all away, we'll get the moved. So the funeral went on and the person was lowered into the grave that had been dug and the grave digger was asked to stay behind and they quickly got it put where it should be. For heaven's sakes. Aha. The person who told him was actually I suppose the person who's family owned the grave that Yeah. it was. So er that that's quite amazing there wasn't even more mistakes like that made. Well there might have been that nobody knew about, I don't know. Yeah. But that was one case that he said and then he said it was getting quite dark by that time when the boat came in it was quite dark. So they were it was quite dark before they got the Mhm. Oh I see so this was a burial off off the the boat . The boat the the body off the boat. Aha. Aha. Good grief. So there wasn't any overall plan of a graveyard arranged Well very poor plans. Aha. I think for but then families moved and Yeah. Mhm. I think better now but I think there's probably it's still quite still difficult quite difficult in the old er Mhm. kirkyards where they're not really marked out. Mm and I don't think there was any real proper records kept of who was where. No I don't think so. Cos nobody was responsible for that really.. No no. But I I think it would be I don't think that could happen in the newer kirkyards. No. But it was just the fact I suppose that maybe some of the the family had died out and the person that was wasn't just quite clear where it was. Aha. So would coffin making stop on the island when your father stopped? No. No? There was a man a Mr down in the North End Leslie who used to be the apprentice he took Mhm. he started up on his own when father stopped. Mhm. When he retired and this er Mr did the undertaking. Mhm mhm. I don't know if he was a joiner He was a joiner certainly Mhm. but I don't know if he was a time served joiner or if he was just a he was really a very good handyman. Mhm. And was a joiner. Mhm mhm. But whether he really was a s time served one or not I don't know but he did it then. Mhm. S And now you see undertaking's still done on the island. Oh really? But the coffins are they come from the mainland. Mhm. They probably have a supply of them. Mhm. You don't know when coffin making stopped on Sanday then? Roughly what date that would be. I don't know. Mhm. I know that father he used to you see if he was going away from the island Mhm. and he was away April he would always have a half-made coffin a sort of standard sized one Mhm. in a underneath his workshop. So that the apprentice Oh right. they could he could carry on and do it, just as a sort of emergency thing. I see was this That was in the very end. Mhm. But before that time I guess father didn't leave the island. That's right yes. So there was no problem. Mhm. Aha. emergency. Yeah. I see so there would be if he was this would be at the end when you know this wasn't he didn't ever do anything like that before he went off to the w w during the war? He didn't No I think it was just straightforward Yeah. But then towards the end of this w would this be to help Leslie ? Just in case anything happened ? I don't know. Because I was away from home by this time. But I I do know that er Mhm mhm. he would have So it was probably about the nineteen what early seventies coffin making would stop on Sanday . I don't really know but Leslie could well be able to tell you. Yeah mhm. Did you did you know what your father ever thought of the modern coffins? Oh I suppose he yes he was a very modern minded person. Aha. I guess he thought it was fine. Aha aha. I don't think it'd been very lucrative work with the amount of time he took to it. No. No not if they would what spend about a whole day making it would they? Oh well there was a lot of more time than that taken up you see. Aha. Because there's all the other running as well. Yes it was a whole Aha. it wasn't just coffin making He probably would get a sort of wages out of it but er running I would imagine would be for nothing. Yeah. Mhm. You'd probably would it sort of maybe be a set amount for making a coffin. I would think so as I would have think so. Aha. Aha. And I don't think it would be very lucrative. Mhm. But listen in to everything which is Oh right. said. If I can get you to scrawl your signature and today's date which is the twenty fifth on there. Right, is your signature readable? Ah could you print your name it's just that she needs your name, the fact that you're male,th an approximate age within five years. that information. Erm basically Oh right er twenty five plus. I don't know why people are a bit touchy about their ages to be perfectly honest. You know. erm what is your job basically? You're a Well I suppose I'm a a blind salesman. Salesman Blind salesman, that sounds good doesn't it. And fitter. I fit it as well. And fitter. Right. So I have to make sure it's measured right. You can't blame anybody else for anything can you . Okay that's lovely thanks very much. Right. Right,it's not gonna fall down on your plants. If you get the middle about the middle of it. Dead in the middle, yeah. Or alive in the middle as they say. You want that supported . Right. That is right thank you. with the lights fading, it's gonna be five o'clock in half an hour's time, feed the dogs just before five and then see you you see. I was a bit quicker in Newark than I thought. It's a good place to be quicker in. delicate measurements. Yeah well we don't want it brushing on your The trouble is I'm quite sure that the plasterers never did that. They they just slop it up don't they. Yeah. There is a bit of difference actually. Yeah. Yes there is quite a bit of difference Well we realized that when we had the windows changed. Yes I Mm. I haven't quite finished wallpapering, I don't think that's gonna make a lot of difference is it to the . Right, I've got a range of prices. Erm Essentially we need to know what what you can do and what you can't do and Right. What's av We've never ever bought a blind. Right. Now what kind of colour were you looking for? White. White. It must be white. I don't think anything else is going to . Er that's our reduced one. That would be sixty nine pounds. Mhm. What are they made of? Erm well they're usually Or doesn't that matter. Well i a they're all polyester or Yeah. erm some are fibreglass. . Yeah. . These are the washable ones. Mm. These are the most expensive. Mhm. These have just come in in the last year. Bu I mean I'd only advise those if you have like er you know, children with grubby hands and Or smokers. Or sm whatever yeah, where it's gonna get really dirty . And we don't have children with grubby hands . No it's just you. Well you see with those you can stick them in the washing machine. Mm. And your dryer and you can iron them. Right, these are your whites. Erm I'll tell you how we price them. Erm the higher up it goes, the more expensive it is. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. With anything. That's a C you see, that would one Mhm. Erm that's an A, that would be ninety eight ad so on. Aha right. Yeah. have a look I quite like that sort of texture actually, that's you know that's quite Oh yes yes that's quite nice that is. Which is a D. Yeah. Mm. See it's quite nice but We've got just a bit of sun. . I can't see the difference between that one and the one that was . Oh yes there is, this is slightly closer weave. Mm. It just depends how difficult they are to weave and that that usually makes them you know, more expensive. And if it's a difficult pattern. Well we wanted something that you know, wasn't just completely plain white, that had got either Yeah. a bit of texture or a pit of pattern in it when the light's shining through it. We've got some beiges as well that a few are quite sort of close to white. Yeah. I mean if you're interested in one I'll take one out because Well if you hold them up to the light then you see them Yes and then you see through That one's got a You'll have to hold it up to Yeah. in front of that light then Mm. you can see it Mm. Yes this is probably see them at night time. Yeah. Yes. Yes. I quite quite like that that one. Which I think is the same. Well on theirs I'm allowed to give you a discount, I bring that down to a B. The higher up you're going. Yeah. I mean I can get a bit more off you see. Right. So I can give you a B a B price for that one. It's difficult to say well I mean suppose with all of these, the the light the sunlight is going to Mm. is gonna be diffused enough isn't it. Mm. Yeah yeah. Cos you can see Yes it's see quite a bit through. Mm. that one. Well that would make Yes you can yes. But it's it it would still denser. it would still you know erm stop stop the sunlight from you know, Mm. spoiling your T V programs or something. Yeah. Or stopping it from rotting the furniture. Yeah my main er our main problem is the Oh right yeah. carpet because this this stuff does fade rather. You're probably better off with something with a bit more texture to it then. Mm. A bit denser. more open weave isn't it. thicker I mean they will they will protect your furniture it's just that they'll take all the battering then from the sun. Mm. Mm. I know white will probably d discolour a bit won't it. Over It's erm a long period of time, I mean we give a guarantee of two years on material. Mm. And a ten year guarantee on the headrail. So Mm If in the future you wanted just to change your louvres, Yeah. you know, you can do that. You can do it that way and it works out a lot cheaper. H how much do the louvres cost as a proportion of the Erm I think it's about half. Yeah. It's about half yeah. So you could you could replace the blind if you redecorated and changed the colour Oh yeah. scheme or something like that for about half the price. Yeah. It doesn't look like Yeah they don't call them other than beige and white and . I'm assuming that the that when they're actually made, when they're cut, they are actually cut absolutely dead straight on the the grain of the erm the weave. Yeah. or otherwise you you know No no they're gonna be dead straight. Er well it would be absolutely wouldn't they ? Yes yes. It's just that some of these of course, the ones that have got like a square textured, No you wouldn't get any sort They'd look a bit funny if they were sort of They would they would look weird if they weren't exactly. Mm. Oh no they'd they'd be cut like you see them there . Perfect yeah. If I got something and it wasn't The price includes VAT, Yeah. includes the fitting. What's the waiting time? The weighting? Wh How long to wait? Oh the waiting time. Sorry I thought you were talking about the weights on the Oh no no no. Erm it's two to three weeks Yeah. maximum. Erm if it's if you're desperate for them we can rush it in Yeah. a bit bit quicker. Mm. That one is not bad . It's slightly it's slightly I don't know I I still like that one actually I mean w There probably isn't no. That's liable to catch the dust a bit more than that I suppose. Mm. Well you've got to brush on the When they Yeah As long as you do them fairly regularly, you're not going to have any problems as far as erm That's acrylic and the other one you were looking at was fibreglass. Mm. Yes it yes it No I still like that one actually. Yeah. Well it's you know, it's up to you you can look at whatever. I'd give you the discount on that as well. The lakes one was an E No it was a it was an E I think. Oh an E. I think it was an E That would be a hundred and fifty two,two hundred and thirty eight. I'm not so keen on that much of a St I still prefer that. It's difficult isn't it when you've got a Well too much choice bit of choice. is is is fatal isn't it ? We've got Spice and we've got Snowdrop and the expense what was the expensive one? Dune. . You like that? Yeah. Dune. It's just got some . Yeah it wouldn't wouldn't matter if it was cut slightly off square either would it. Well it's not quite and you get the dunes effect when you've Mm. when you've got them all up . Yeah. Oh they th Well of course you will won't you because you're gonna go right the way across. Always assuming they match together. Well no they wouldn't match together but that doesn't matter. Erm might might be a problem for you. No it wouldn't be a problem might be a problem for a my mother Er your mother yes. Mm. Mm. So what would that Well I'll drop that down to a C, that'd be a hundred and fourteen. A hundred and fourteen. Mm. Cos that looks quite a nice one. Mm. I want something really that's not absolutely completely dead plain. Mm. Well Because it's quite a bit window. Yeah. I think mind you the rest of the walls, everything else is white so Want something that's a bit interesting in your living room don't you. Yeah. You know, depending on what kind of decor you have. But you've got white walls Yes. Well I I don't think we can go on any other sort of colour. Mm. Cos I think a big expanse of something that matched this would be awful really. Well I was just I was just thinking, if you had a patterned paper and then you had you're pattern in your Yeah. your blind as well Well yes, I think we'll have to stick to white . I think that's . The background . Mm. well we've got some sort of sorting out and thinking to do haven't we? Yeah, what about the erm oh what do you call the top bit of the rail? Oh the the rail The erm. Yes erm. Wh which side do do do they go to the side? They actually go, you can have them at either side, Yeah. erm you can have your controls at either side, the bunch going to either side. And you can Can you have it going from the middle? You can have the bunch splitting. Cos it being a big window I think Yeah. it's better. I'll just tell you about if you have it splitting. Mhm. Erm the two middle louvres that come together will overlap slightly more than the others. Yeah. Right. So the shadow w when the sun's shining You can see a slightly thicker one. becomes sl er slightly larger. Mm. That's the only er difference with those. But if er if it all going to one side I think it's going to be take up half the window won't it . I think it could be very heavy here wouldn't it. Mm. look better going. It wouldn't quite take up it wouldn't take up half the window . Wouldn't it? No. But a fair amount. It also depends if you have your windows open and you've got them each side and a bit of a wind, they'll be flapping . Yeah. Mm. think about that as well. Mm I I I still think the middle. You want it to open from the middle? Yeah. It's this sense of proportion isn't it? No it's not really what I prefer. Yes. Right. And what about the bottoms? Presumably they're chained . They're they're they're all chained together Mm. with weights. And they they go a hundred and eighty Yeah. degrees? That's right yeah. Cos obviously that's quite necessary . Mm yeah. The way the sun comes. Which end do you want to have the controls? Well it would have to be this end. You want the controls this end? No no sorry same end as the other one, same end yes the same end . Yeah it's a bit more difficult to get in there isn't it. Do you want to order now or do you want a quote? Could you quote ? Probably the best is a quote . And then we'll Cos we've got one more person to talk to Right. yet. Okey-doke. . if you can give us the the two alternatives for the the Dunes one and the Spice Oh I'd better just er . So it's the Dunes is the That one. that one. The dunes is the preferred one. Is the preferred one. And then there's the Spice. Mm. And was it the Snowdrop? No. just those two? Just those two. I like the texture of that other one . Which one? That well the . The Spice one. Spice one but er Yeah. You like the pattern of the Dunes one. Well no it's not that I just think it's the I don't know you can see through it more. Yeah. I Is it Mr ? yeah. As in the flower. And the address again please. . And your phone number? is . Why am I saying all these . With the er white headrail or chocolate brown? White. White? White . That doesn't make any difference to price does it? No. What width are the are the vanes of the the louvres. Er they're five inch. Yeah. These are three and a half so they'd be slightly longer. Yeah yeah. Slightly wider. Mhm. Well I hope they will be slightly longer. . Yeah. Right . You want it split? Yeah. And you want it er controls on the Left. And the other one was Spice White. Right I'll write this out again and if you decide to go ahead, Yeah. then just cross the one out you don't want. Okay. Mhm. Yeah. Otherwise you get two. Yeah. Which could be quite fun. Well you you'd have no problem with sun penetration then would you. No you're right dear. No. That would be We already have a roller blind on the outside I see which is useful for taking the heat off the window itself in the Summer. Yeah. But it doesn't have any effect It doesn't take the light off. . I mean that's got a very open weave texture. Mm. Ten Right, I'll let you fill that in when you're Okay yeah. It's a Newark phone number, yeah? Right. There's a little bit more for you. competition on the toes. Right I'll give you these. Right. Erm if you want to go ahead with it, pull the top one off, Yeah. pop it into one of these prepaid envelopes Right. with the deposit in. And it'll be twenty pound deposit. Twenty pounds . Mm. Yeah. And then as soon as our office gets that it'll be two to three weeks. Right. That says plus thirty, that's that's inclusive . No Well I'll just put it on. Thought thought I'd better ask. Yes yes . Thank you. and that'll be attached and when we come to fit it, if you keep hold of the one you keep Yeah. you needn't sign that now It looks a bit complicated but No no. No not really. got the idea. Well that's marvellous thank you. I've been thinking about these blinds for such a long time. Yeah. Really just I mean a roller blind's just too the window's too wide for a roller blind. And then at least you can see through while you're shading the sun from that direction and then That's right yeah. the other direction. seemed to be the answer. Well thank you very much. Yes, you've got your measure. I've got my measure yeah. Yeah. I've just well and truly broken mine, you know I chipped the end of the Yeah. tape on the it went and did it again on me now and it's well and truly gone I'll have to buy another one. It was a nice idea. put this back. Oh don't worry it's very very it's very easy. There you go. They're all on rollers these days. Oh right. Right thank you very much indeed. Hello there goes the phone . I'll answer it dear Right okay. Creator and sustainer of all things and all people. You are the source of all wisdom and light. Enlighten our minds to receive your guidance so that you may lead us unto true wisdom. May all that we say and do in the service of this county, whether as elected member or as officer, be in accordance with your will and for the good of your people. Amen. Yes we've got about two hundred people outside. Firstly, evacuation procedure. In the event, and this is a normal evacuation procedure, not with the circumstances. In the event of having to evacuate the council chamber would everyone leave by one of the two exits at the rear of the chamber. Officers will be at hand to assist any disabled persons. Agenda item one, Chairman's announcement -visitors. I welcome to this meeting all visitors and guest of members and in particular to the Mayor and Mayoress of Councillor and Mrs Mike . Mr Robert and Mr Ken . I know members will be sorry to hear that Mr Robert and Mr Ken are both unwell and will wish me to convey to them the council's best wishes for a speedy recovery. Here, here. The, there are two hundred people I am told, in the hall at the rear so I shall move shortly resolution to bring forward motion at the rear of the agenda forward, before that I shall deal with the routine council business of petitions, declarations of interest and members' questions. After that I shall move the resolution to bring the motion forward. Agenda item two. I move that the minutes of the meeting of the council held on thirtieth of June nineteen ninety three, copies of which have been circulated to members, to be taken as read, confirmed and signed. Item four. Declarations of interest. Are there any members who wish to do make declarations of pecuniary and non-pecuniary interests in respects of items on the agenda for this meeting. Chairman, I wish to declare an interest on the social services erm item regarding elderly person's homes. Mr an interest in policy and resources item B. Mr I declare an interest in, on item nine part B. Mr the resources issue. Could we just clear whether those are pecuniary or non-pecuniary. Could you confirm whether these are pecuniary or non- pecuniary interests please? Could we start Pecuniary. Pecuniary. Non-pecuniary. Non-pecuniary. Pecuniary. Pecuniary. Non-pecuniary. Non-pecuniary. Thank you. No other interests, right. Agenda item four, petitions presented under standing order seven. Mr . Thank you gentlemen. I would like to present a petition standing my, in my name on the green order paper signed by two hundred and eight si signatures of parents of St Mary's Fields s school, erm I move that this be be referred to the education committee for consideration. Mrs seconding. Seconded. Thank you. Mrs Thank you chairman. I wish to present the petition containing seven hundred and eighty three signatures of people who request the provision of a pedestrian crossing in Brook Side, Burghley following two recent accidents to elderly residents as elaborated on the green order paper. I move that the petition be referred to the environment committee for consideration Mr Second that. Thank you. Mr I'd like to move a petition containing four, two hundred and forty nine signatures of residents of Broadstone who request a ped pedestrian crossing on Broadstone Lane near road. I move that it be sent to the environment committee for consideration. Mrs Seconded. Mr Chairman Er, Mr . Thank you chairman. I wish to present a petition containing seven hundred and ninety six signatures organised by the Bell Group community childcare, set up due to lack of affordable child care facilities in the Belgrave area. I move this petition to be referred to the Social Services committee. Mrs Seconded chairman. Mr I I move the petition in my name on the green order paper Chairman, to restrict the speed of of cars in Mossgate, Leicester on behalf of Weston Park Labour party. I move that it be referred to the environment committee. Mr . Second that. Mr , J R I'd like to move this petition under my name on the green order paper, that it be referred to the environment committee for consideration today. Mr Cyril Mr I'd like to move a petition containing two hundred and forty four signatures and my name on the green order page and I ask that it be referred to the environment committee for consideration. Mrs Seconded chairman Mr I move a petition containing nine hundred and sixteen signatures under my name on the green order page and I ask that it be referred to the environment committee for consideration. Mr Seconded chairman. Not quite as tall eh. Mr . I'd like to present a petition containing five hundred er plus signatures from residents in road area who are concerned with traffic conditions on that road. I ask that it be referred to the environment committee for consideration. Mr . Second. Without seconding seconded Mr Thank you chairman. I will move that the petition containing some one thousand one hundred and nine signatures as of, as of today, erm of people who call upon the county council to reverse its decision to sell part of the land known as The Green, Doddington Heath in my ward for development purposes. The petitioners further request Chairman, that the county council retain this land in perpetuity as an open space that is managed to conserve its considerable ecological value and recreational value and I would urge that this committee, this this council refer the petition to the policy and resources committee and that the decision of the council is reversed on this matter. Thank you unclear here, here I'd be delighted to second it Chairman. Thank you. Mrs . Erm yes, thank you Chairman, erm I present a petition on behalf of the er people of the village of Bradstone er concerned about the dangerous alignment of the highway and ask that this be referred to the environment committee. Mr Er, seconded. Mrs Chairman, I ask that you receive erm, the petition of eight hundred and sixty four signatures requesting a pelican crossing on and ask it be referred to the environment committee, please. Mrs Seconded. Mrs again. Thank you Chairman. The second one to present the petition of one thousand three hundred and seventy two signatures asking that, who are opposed to Brady Hospital being turned into specialised unit for adolescents and to ask the county council not to proceed with plans to develop a group three community home on the site, erm I ask it be referred to the social services committee. Mrs Seconded. Doctor I'd like to move a petition containing seven hundred and twelve signatures, residents of Broadstone who request the installation of a pedestrian crossing on Broadstone Lane, bottom end of Shakespeare Drive and propose that it is passed on to the environment committee for consideration. Mr Seconded Chairman. Mr I wish to move a petition signed by four hundred and one people organised by the Hikehams Community Association asking the full county council to freeze its decision on of the Hikehams and Moat er merger issue. I wish the petition to be referred to the policy and resources committee. Mr . Mr . Thank you Chair. Smallest petition of the lot, but the most important one regarding road. Can I move that it be referred to the environment er committee. Ciao. Mr Mr . Sir I wish to present a petition containing a hundred and sixty six signatures of people who are opposed to the shutting off of the road calling instead for the loco , the low cost tr er calming, traffic calming in the area. Thank you. Mr I'd like to second that petition. Mr Petition containing nine hundred and ninety three signatures of people who are opposed to the East West link road . I move that the decision be referred to the environment committee for consideration. Mr B There are other petitions appertaining to a motion they will be referred to when the motion is taken. Now move on to agenda item five, questions under standing orders. Miss er Mr would you . Thank you Chairman. Chair, with with the, with one small exception in in her reply that of Hamilton Community College would the Chairman agree that er the others she mentions in her reply to one and I note that she doesn't agree with Keith M P erm, would she, would she accept that the others are largely inaccessible to the youth of Nether Hall and what's she gonna do about it? Mrs supplementary I don't know I don't know who Mr is referring to er Chair, but I presume you wish me to reply to some comments that came from across the other side of the room. nice one sir I thought Mrs you'd be capable of defending yourself. Erm, I er have never known such a question asked in this council chamber where referring to members of parliament er in in er and that is why I didn't feel it necessary Can you use the mike? To comment on that in my reply. I didn't think it necessary to comment about that in my reply to that, in fact I have, I was speaking with er Mr when I saw this question down and reported it to him that his name was being used in such a way erm. I'd like to say that in reply to the question your Mr will see that we are arranging a meeting to discuss the issues of youth facilities in erm the Netherhall area. I think everybody in this council chamber could say we want youth facilities in my ward. Here, here. Youth provision is, is a county council responsibility not a city council responsibility although for your information Mr , without the er zodiac youth centre grant in the ninety one, ninety two figures er, two hundred and thirty nine thousand one hundred and sixty six pounds were put in by the city council into that s , into that specific area in the Humberstone ward and the amount that was put in there in this financial year was approximately the same, but the reason being that there is no mar more money available is because hundreds of thousand of pounds were cut out of youth and community facilities that should have been provided by this city council by the Tory budget which this council approved last February. Thank you. Would you ar er next question then Mr any supplementary on those. Thank you Chairman. Erm, Chairman,w would the spokesman agree that the that the resources argument which she has just used is is completely fallacious and would she rather expect Mr Yes. Mrs, this is Mrs would you refer to members by name please. Mrs I do apologise to Mrs Chairman. Would Mrs agree that the resources argument that she's just used is completely fallacious and would she not accept er that it's better to spend fifty thousand pounds can you please be on providing youth facilities in Netherhall than it is for five hundred thousand pounds on the in Highfield. We are dealing, with respect, we are dealing, I asked you to raise questions on the social services committee. I I was asking under two Chairman. Sit down old chap If if you would like to reply, you don't have to reply Mrs it's up to you. talking about Mr Chairman Right, would you Mr will you,Mr will you please ask er, put forward any supplementary questions if you have them, on the next item of the spokesman of the social services committee please. Thank you Chairman. Erm, no questions on my second set but I'm very grateful for the er spokesman for their reply. Erm, if I m If there's no supplementary well that's it really If I may Chairman on the third set of questions erm those are which is? You're talking of..? the er, the young people in secure accommodation Chairman. Erm, under number one erm, is the Chairman aware that the er current talk in Whitehall which has given out the contracts for er new secure accommodation units in various counties that the current talk in Whitehall is that because Leicestershire doesn't know its own mind because of the recent votes over secure accommodation that it's unlikely to get one in the present er round and isn't that a damning indictment erm of the Liberal and Labour parties in this county. Mrs It's Mr That's right, Mr sorry Mr I'm not entirely sure Chairman that Whitehall's ever made up its mind on anything Erm, bearing in mind that Leicestershire currently I think er reserves two places for secure accommodation and in the answers to my question, we have fifteen currently either needing or having secure accommodation with five being remanded because there is no place. Erm, would the er spokesman not agree that there is a crisis in secure accommodation in Leicestershire at the moment due entirely to the stance of the Labour and Liberal parties on this authority. Mr The need for additional secure places that can be accessed by Leicestershire is not at issue,what's still be investigated is how a regional service meeting varying types of needs can be provided discussions are still taking place with Northamptonshire county council and into some other current secure unit provider authorities as to how best Leicestershire can work with other local authorities in the region towards this objective. Neither Whitehall,nor government nor this county council, nor the children we're talking about would welcome being used as a political football by Mr . Here, here . Thank you Mr . Dr , any supplementaries on your question? Yes er to the for former question er Chairman. Er, what am I to tell the people in London and partic in particular er when they say that the government and the county council is letting them down? Mr Er, Chairman the, the only advice that I can give Dr on that point is to say that the county council is not letting them down er the funding for major road schemes is provided by central government and we make a contribution towards it but if central government do not give us permission to go ahead with the race road scheme in terms of a grant, then in fact it will not go ahead and in that situation they may be let down, that is their judgement and that should be reflected in the way they vote at parliamentary elections. Mr , any supplementaries, thank you Mr . Mr Thank you Mr Chairman any supplementaries I have two supplementary questions. First one concerning A. In view of the level of con concern expressed on police funding, would the chairman of the Police authority agree that some f that some protection of Police funds locally and nationally may be necessary. Mr Yes, thank you, thank you, er thank you Mr councillor erm. Can I can I say that in my opinion that the county council's current budgeting strategy which effectively imposes a two percent efficiency saving which I might add in figures come to something like one point five million erm is, is of concern but what is of greater concern is the further possibility of a four percent er reduction which is being sought in blocks of three percent and one percent next year for ninety four ninety five which is to the amount of two point eight million at the current prices will in my opinion decimate the present level of service provision in policing. Erm. Community policing will be further marginalised with priority going to intermediate response type of incidents I am confident however that this council will make some crucial and vitally important decisions during the next er budget rounds and the importance of policing an inadequately funded service will be unanimously supported. Can I also add that representations to the Secretary of State for the Home Office will be central er component to secure those adequate resources with the Leicestershire Police erm, erm service needs. Thank you. Thank you Mr Does the Chairman share my concern regarding the Home Secretary's proposals containing the white paper on Police which will dramatically reduce local accountability of the Police service to the Leicestershire public. Mr I'm grateful chair, once again for Mr on that er second supplementary. The real danger of course is the forthcoming Police bill the proposal which were instituted by the present er Treasurer,erm er the Chancellor er and instituted further on by the present Home Secretary would lead to a centrally appointed Police committee at least fifty percent and a centrally appointed chairman, paid by the Home Secretary much rather like the Leicestershire Health Authority and of course this will severely undermine the local democratic accountability of the Police service. Can I also add that it will also instigate centrally determined policing policies, very much akin to other government policies, particularly economic policies which have, as yet, done nothing to address the underlying causes of crime and there are fears and I'm quoting here from the er the response made by the Association of Metropolitan Authorities, the Association of County Councils and the Association of District Councils that it could lead to a national Police force. But what is important is that there is opposition er Chairman at the national level which is set to continue and once again representations are being undertaken er to be made to local Members of Parliament and to Members of the House of Lords. But it is of concern and I do hope that in the next forthcoming er house er when the the house sits in the forthcoming rounds, that they will be mindful of the representations which have been made nationally and that the Police service and the proposals contained, particularly in the Police bill, will not be fully implemented in the way that they're currently proposed on the white paper today. Could I point out to members that we did have er written replies to try and speed up the question process, could I ask members both in asking the question and especially in answering, not to make it another speech occasion because otherwise it destroys the whole purpose of having the written replies. Please try and keep questions and answers to the point please, thank you. Did you wish Mr to raise your, on the, in that, that concludes you does it Mr ? Okay. Mr you have a question. Chairman, yes. Thank you very much,yes point taken but a vitally important issue and I'm very grateful once again that you have allowed this as an emergency question erm. My supplementary is will the Chairman of policy and resources committee make a statement to the county council to reassure and inform the ethnic minority community and the general public of Leicestershire of the need for tolerance and racial harmony and reaffirm the county council's opposition to all forms of racist dogma. Can I further ask will he join me to congratulate the Chief Constable in an unprecedented move in which he actually formed links and created a an environment of partnership as recently highlighted in the Leicester Mercury. Thank you. Mr Thank you Mr Chairman, thank you Mr . If it is not an emergency question, you are in time Mr with your question, in case anyone thinks that it was an emergency question was put down It wasn't an emergency question. It was not. No it was, it was in the time limit. I must say in that sense, thank you Mr for your question, because it's an an issue that's conc should concern every member of this authority. I would like the members of this authority to to have a look at the reply I make no apology for the length of the reply to Mr 's very important question. On erm what you have asked for Mr . I must say that I am happy to make that statement and in view of some of the things that have been, that have appeared in the media recently here's a statement that needs to be made as for your your your ques , what the, the Chief Constable I welcome the statement and the actions of the Chief Constable on this very concerning issue. Thank you. Mr Have you any supplementary? Yes sir, on the erm first part erm in in clarification if I might sir the erm question of er briefing the Chairman is in fact dealt with in paragraph forty seven of annex C of P P G twelve although I'm grateful for information on paragraph forty eight, erm and it says amongst other things that er there shall be a briefing and that briefing, the contents of that briefing shall be made public can I press the er spokesman for the environment committee to tell us er why in fact that wasn't done and whether he thinks there can be prop proper public debate if it isn't done. Sorry about that. Carry on Mr It is my understanding from the reply there's a fairly clear statement there that that was done erm I indeed have a copy of the principal briefing paper which the Director prepared for the panel, Chairman it outlined the background to the structure plan review, it referred to the previously approved structure plans, copies of which were appended to the briefing paper. It referred to the regional strategy which is currently out for consultation but was an emerging document and copies of that were again appended to the briefing paper it outlined the county council's procedures which were followed in progress in the structure plan it outlined a programme establishing the weight of opinion of objectors it indicated our process in preparing policy amendments to be put to the panel and all those matters were made public It also requested the panel's view on the role of county council members at the enquiry in public the responses to that were not made public and were in fact a question which was clearly put to the panel. The paper also discussed erm the proposed topics for discussion at the enquiry in public it explained where the county council's er relevant policies would be found in the extra electory memorandum it outlined the key objections and the proposed participants for each topic. The first two of those were also included were made public, they are in the issue's papers it did not make public the county council's proposal as to who should be participants for each topic since those were matters for the the panel er to to ma take a view of and I understood er from er the question er the answer to the question that it had been made clear that er the information had been made public except as always Chairman,er our legal office's of the council always like that caveat that in case anything had been missed out I had just in fact suggested that perhaps not everything had been made public so I anticipated a possible supplementary question from Mr . Thank you. That concludes the questions and answers No it doesn't sir Clarification The second question I have with your permission sir. Yeah. Erm should the erm that, given that er, sorry, that the er, er O P C S in fact erm er after every census makes er guesses about its accuracy erm would erm the spokesman, is the spokesman aware that in fact O P C S has said that a fair erm representation of the intercensal increase in population in Leicestershire er between nineteen eighty one and nineteen ninety one is in fact fifteen thousand people and doesn't he feel that to provide for fifty three thousand in the structure plan is a little over the top? Mr Mr makes there was an under, enumeration of figures and that has been made clear in the reply the reply is quite clear about the basis on which the structure plan is being promulgated and the total projected total population in two thousand and six regards the historical data, that should be taken, as far as I'm concerned, as matters of fact, will of course not be absolutely accurate and as far as projected data is concerned all that we can do any of us can do is to try and make the best estimates possible and I am satisfied that our officers will have done that. I hope I've understood the supplementary question correctly, if I've not I apologise to Mr but we are dealing in a technical area. Thank you. I have decided to exercise my discretion under standing order five so that agenda item nine B, notice of motion by Mr on fox-hunting to be taken now. In addition to the many personal representation made to members of the council on the subject of fox hunting on county council land, the county secretary has now received a total of two hundred and six written representations nearly as many as me. Of these a hundred and sixty eight contain expressions of opposition to fox hunting and thirty eight contain either expressions of support for fox hunting or that the county council should not be considering the matter for one reason or another. I have also had passed to me a petition from Mr containing four thousand five hundred signatures from the national anti-hunt petition er, there is a doubt of the petition or a letter from the tenant farmers but er, there is representation from them. Erm, Mr would you move the motion please. Thank you Chair, erm In moving the motion this time I'm not going to be very passionate like I normally am on on subjects in this council chamber I'm I'm actually gonna try and keep, I'm actually going to try and keep politics down to a low level and er because I believe there conscience on all sides of this chamber. We have not got a monopoly on conscience I know that certain Liberals have debated this subject and as th the passions been raised in their group meetings. I know also that some Conservatives that feel that perhaps what I've laid before you this afternoon has some credence. The reason I did this, because some sixteen months ago, like over a year ago we brought it and lost it, it wasn't a victory for anybody or er or er a real loss for anyone because it was lost by one vote. By wrecking a motion at the time,rightly or wrongly placed and once again I see this afternoon we've got a similar motion on the table. What I want to do though is is kind of thank a few people for start off. anti-hunt people, the League of Cruel Sports and all sorts of other organisations that have actually asked their members not to be here today, not to cause a problem, not to divert attention from the real issues in the debate er er and cause a crisis outside for all the press and the media to latch on to, that's not what they were about. I respect the fact the Hunt are here, er I respect the fact the literature that they've sent us, from all sides of the fence, from the League Against Cruel Sports, the hunting fraternity, it's been very helpful. It hasn't changed my view. I also want to put right it, er the facts that have been presented to me, that it's an urban erm view, it's city people making a er, their will, imposing their will on country folk, on the practices of country folk. I am not a city person and have never lived in a city in my life I represent a rural area, a hunting area, a hunting area erm I believe the terrier men from the some of them live in my area. I can tell you this the general public have sent me literally hundreds of cards I have had well wishing cards, I've also had some letters from the opposition, some of them, to be quite honest, have been disgraceful. Some of them have asked me about my parentage, some of them have asked me whether or not I am tinkering with the laws of God. I will extract those to one side and say they not really followers of the hunt, they are probably some weird faction that latch onto these type of things during erm these issues. It's a shame also that we have to fill the council chamber on such a debate. It's a pity that the general public don't come into this chamber on, on a normal debate, about education, about children's needs, about social services, the very things that I've Here, here, been attacked over the last few months of not wasting time on the hunt I spend an awful lot of time relieving heavy goods traffic in my area, concerned totally about the environment, about mineral extraction quarries, mining, open cast, things of that calibre. This is one debate, one small debate, hopefully put to bed within an hour with a decent result. The motion itself is a compromise some on my side have said it's too much of a compromise they've said you're tr trying to be all things to all people. What I have done is hopefully brought together a er a view of people, a clash of personalities and a way forward. I want to answer the questions on jobs. Those jobs can be protected, I know the hunting fraternity say they don't want to drag hunt. We set standards, standards evolve we are coming to the stage now in nineteen ninety three the standards that are being set are changing and at the end of the day the hunt have got to come along with us. The gauntlet was down, the opportunity to talk to arrange a forum, to come together, land owners, local authorities, the hunt's people, er the interested parties, to come together and look for a decent way of hunting and that way is probably drag hunting and we're giving you a golden opportunity to start that route. It's gotta start somewhere, there's a motion, a tide of feeling going across the country on council from council, it won't be long before people like me are M P's and others around you that are M P's are in the and fellow members that will be down in Whitehall and eventually will put you to bed, if you bury your head in the sand and at the end of the day I'm afraid the country is going to knock it off. The general public are saying no. Time has come for a change. I want to thank also er the different organisations, cos you made an absolute profit for the G P O, er erm British Telecom, they must have actually made a bomb in Leicestershire over the last few days. I thank the League Against Cruel Sports for their literature. Very, very informative. I also thank the hunting fraternity for their documentary they sent me on hunting the facts. But I would like to point out in this video, and on the brochure that goes with it, actually says the rest of the field are there to follow on horseback or on foot or by car, very few people indeed actually witness the death of a fox. The followers are there for a day out in the countryside, the opportunity to ride or to walk freely over private property with the consent of the landowner. I agree, sometimes I can tell you I have witnessed a hunt and on a cold, frosty morning when er about forty or fifty horses are thundering across the ploughed field, it's enough to p the power of that sight is enough to make the hairs on the back of your neck stand up that's not what we are against the hunter that came to me and says Eh up lad, I won't go drag hunting because I'm sixty years old, I've done it all my life and I like the ride, I like to be there I never see a fox killed that's fact, it's in the video. So why is it important that the kill has to continue. You can continue your sport the decent side of the sport without the need for the kill and and we will encourage, my motion actually encourages that, encourages the fox hunting fraternity to look at a way forward, come forward, talk to us. If you're willing to go down the route to drag hunting I am willing to support any hunt that wants to go down that route and I am sure this authority would. We can negotiate access to our land and we will be only too pleased to do so but whilst you are killing the fox er and at the end of the day, it is not on. I've also said to certain factions of the er direct action groups this is the unacceptable face of protest. Let's put that side of the protest to bed. If you change now, Leicestershire has a golden opportunity, we are proud of the fox, we are proud of the fox in Leicestershire, our football team, the Foxes,our, our fox cubs our Police emblem, it isn't the hunters, we don't support the hunters at Leicester's Street, we support the foxes and at the end of the day I think there is room for the hunting fraternity to stay as part of the pageantry in Leicestershire. When we get to the jobs erm side of it the jobs I I I'm accused outside this afternoon of of putting in jeopardy one thousand something jobs erm, this authority got rid of seven hundred jobs, education jobs er only a few months ago and there's many more, something on the region of two thousand jobs will be lost in this authority without a protest. without protest from a parent, without a protest from a hunter without a protest from er a anyone else, that is a shame, because I tell you what, if you go drag hunting, you can keep the jobs the people are still going to have to shoe the horses traders and people like that are still going to have to produce the carriages to take the horses with them and the only people job jobs are in jeopardy are not the kennel staff it's the terrier men and to be quite honest, ladies and gentlemen, it's the terrier men who have actually ruined your sport, cos of what they get up to in nineteen ninety three is a disgust and at the end of the day your P R has been absolutely wrong and I hope this afternoon that Conservatives and Liberals can join with us and I've got to thank a certain Liberal because he's he's put his head on the block on several occasions on this when we stood on the platform as individuals, not as politicians, as individuals on this and I think that this afternoon we've got a way forward, we can say to the hunt, come and talk you change, we'll give you access. Thank you Chair. Have we a seconder. No. Thank you. Did you wish to move an amendment? Thank you sir. Can I erm,er move the amendment that is in my name. This is fact is a debate about personal freedom the freedom of our tenants to choose the quite legal activities that take place on their farms for whatever we may think about the merits and de-merits of angling or shooting fox hunting, these are activities that Parliament has decided are permissible. Chairman, I believe that this is just the sort of motion that can only bring local government into disrepute It's an abuse of power the council holds lands in the county farms estate for purposes set out in the nineteen sixty agriculture act. It doesn't hold land in order to allow ideologues to impose their views on our tenants and impose it through a form of nineteenth century landlordism. If Mr doesn't like field sports he should seek, try to seek to persuade Parliament to ban it he'll have an excellent opportunity because he'll, he's told us that he'll be an MP shortly that's what's happening, that's what's happened in the case of cock fighting and badger baiting it hasn't happened in the case of fox hunting and Mr shouldn't abuse his position as a councillor to dictate to the council's tenants in the way that he proposes. Here, here. As well as being the sort of motion that brings local government into disrepute, I also believe that this is the sort of motion that, that displays a lack of tolerance that should concern us all. This county council has recognised that in Leicestershire we live in a society. Labour members have been at the forefront in demanding that ethnic communities be free to keep their traditions and cultures yet here we are Labour members trying to prevent countrymen pursuing traditional country sports that have been followed by our forefathers for centuries. I cannot see the consistency. Must be your forefathers, not mine. Yes,w well you said it And I think we are entitled to ask Mr whether he has actually asked the tenants for their views. Yes. yes Has he asked them how this initiative could affect their livelihood. Yes. Does he even care. Yes, he does. And what did they say, I can tell you what they said, because I happen to have a petition here, signed by a hundred and four county council tenants out of the hundred and six that we have. Oh well done. And I will read it as farm tenants of Leicestershire county council we wish to retain the freedom to make the decision ourselves as to whether fox hunting with hounds takes place on our land. We do not consider drag hunting to be an alternative. Well done. At our last meeting we discussed the running of a community centre in the middle of Leicester. We'll be discussing it this afternoon and Labour members told us and no doubt they'll tell us again that the users of the centre have a democratic right to be consulted about how it was run Don't tenant farmers have the right to be consulted? Where are their democratic rights Is this the new, I quote, the new era of democratic rights about which was talking yesterday? One man, one vote. Chairman. This is a vindictive and intolerant motion it sets an unfortunate precedent and in this debate about freedom we should support the rights of our tenants to choose. Have we a seconder. Served by Right, at present I have fifteen speakers, plus the two seconders who have reserved the, their right. We start off with Mr . Thank you Chairman. I rise to support the motion moved in Mr name and I have always been opposed to fox hunting full stop. Hunting and all cruel sports which are totally anachronistic in present day society. But I wish to relate to the council a particular episode, which I hope will convey something to those people who are perhaps still wavering erm, and whilst we all have principle stands on issues it behoves us as members to consider the views of our constituents and the sorts of things that take place in our wards. And I remind this council of something I said a few years ago of an incident, incident concerning the Atherstone hunt in my ward where the hounds attacked the dogs of, a couple of dogs of a constituent of mine in his back garden totally uncontrolled, they were running amuck right across land in Ellistown this is nothing the hunt could do nothing the hunt tried to do they were too busy off still dashing ahead chasing the fox or what they thought was a fox. Meanwhile the owner the person who lived a small terraced property, whose garden backs onto the fields tried to get the hounds several dozen hounds off these two dogs who were being savaged to death and he had a heart attack in the process, Chairman and was hospitalized for several weeks That Chairman is the effect of the hunt on one of my constituents whose job it is for me to defend the rights that I was elected here to defend the rights of my constituents, not to be harassed in this manner. Of course he was released from hospital and he recovered and of course we we, he, we protested to the hunt and they had the audacity to off to offer him some fifty pounds compensation, which was a adding insult to injury. So that's how I can speak from direct experience. I'd also like to say that I've received some twenty nine representations from constituents in my ward all of whom live in my ward who are opposed to fox hunting and have asked me today to vote to ban fox hunting on our land and I've only received two representations from official bodies the video and, and a representation from the British Field Sports Association erm, in favour of fox hunting. So I think it's time that er we dragged this county council into this century and not into the century, or the centuries of Mr 's forefathers. And that we actually op adopted a b a modern sensible er, reasonable attitude towards all living creatures and that we do today vote to ban fox hunting it is anachronistic as I said earlier, it is not necessary it actually causes harm, not only does it cause harm to foxes, but at least in one case, which is sufficient for me to continue my support for the ban damage to the people in my area. I don't want to rehearse the arguments, I'm sure other members will put all the other arguments about cruelty, about the destruction of land and so on. But I'll finish Chairman, by saying that also I've received complaints from er, a tenant farmer, not one of our tenant farmers, but a p a person who farms who actually has problems because of the pressure that that farmer is under to allow the hunt to go across their land because they're surrounded by by farmers who do allow them. They don't wish it to happen, but it becomes an impossibility almost for them to stand up to their rights, and Mr talks about rights and no rights is in abstract and we all know how difficult it is then to stand up as a minority when you're surrounded by that majority, but I've had personal representations They have the right to choose. From them. They do not have the right to choose because they, they virtually, the the hunt has always ignored their wishes. They have to buy and sell their produce in that community and there are restrictions operating on that. So I think we must today level out the rules on this and we must speak for what is the majority of opinion in this country, by every single opinion poll that's been conducted, and that is Chairman to vote to ban fox hunting on our land. Thank you. Thank you Mr . Mr . Thank you Chairman. Er, Mr said this is a debate about personal freedom. Actually it is a debate about personal conscience Last night I had one of those phone calls that we've all been getting erm the guy on the other end apologised for not being one of my constituents erm, I said it probably wasn't his fault. He went on to said he wanted to talk about the hunting debate, erm, it occurred to me to wonder why they couldn't find anyone in Stonygate in favour of hunting, I mean perhaps there aren't any people in Stonygate in favour of hunting. I certainly have not received any communication from any individual in my ward in favour of hunting. I've received a number against. He asked me whether I was a country person I asked what the qualifications were he said country born and bred, well I was born in Liverpool spent my childhood and early adolescence in rural Nottinghamshire, moved to Highfields, emigrated to the West Indies and now live in sub rural Blavey so I don't know whether I qualify as a country person or not, but I'd like to bet that I've milked more cows by hand than he has if that's any qualification. The conversation ranged widely through wildlife management, the history of the landscape and of hunting and he was on very shaky ground there I can tell you control of pests, he likened a farmer killing a rat with a dog, to the whole panoply of fox hunting. As this conversation continued over an extended period, I was waiting to go out to dinner, erm it became apparent that he hadn't understood my position it was apparent again, outside earlier today, that people do not understand the position that people like me take. I tried to make it clear at an early stage my petition is a simple, straightforward one not involved with wildlife management,history or anything else like that, I simply believe that killing animals for fun is morally wrong. Last Saturday night Channel four show showed Sex, lies and videotape well, we got the lies and the video tape, I'd like to know what happened to the sex. People keep writing letters to the Mercury saying how can we afford to spend time and money debating this, well they can afford the time and the money employing out of work newsreaders to produce videos and writers and photographers to produce their glossy magazines, their glossy leaflets I didn't need the R S P C A or the League to tell me that er, the fox photo, this fox photo was a fake, I mean that's obvious to anybody I didn't need them to tell me that the video was suspect, that too is obvious. Perhaps the most interesting thing about this video tape is the involvement of loony er, who's espoused every cause known to human kind. Whether they had any merit or not. Most recent of course, is euthanasia it doesn't draw the line at killing foxes I had this terrible vision in the early hours this morning,of Ron closing all our elderly persons' homes, pushing all the old people out onto the street and the hunt with at its head hunting them down the countryside. Look, it's alright to have a bit of fun with this, but the matter is deadly serious and I use the word deadly advisedly. What it comes down to is do we, or do we not approve of killing animals for fun do we approve of allowing a pack of dogs to hunt an animal to its death. If the answer's no we do not approve then it's up to us, the onus is on us to do whatever we can, wherever we have any control to prevent it happening. Let us today do what our consciences demand and vote to stop this cruelty in just one small corner of this county. Mr Thank you Chair. I will be voting for the motion and I will be voting against the amendment. I'd like to start before I explain that, just to refer to a few comments that Mr made. Mr made a comment about Moats and Highfield. I find this a little strange since he was quite happy to support us when my colleague and I said that there was a greater good to be considered and that people had issues that had to be raised in that area above and beyond the local community. So we did suggest and I did believe your party to support erm, a process where we did consult with local people but we also took other factors into consideration. So I hope today you will take wider factors into consideration as well. The other one, the other one that I find interesting is I hope Mr will take his comments back to John , because John 's quite happy, I applaud him for once, it's about the only thing I do applaud John for,erm, but John 's quite happy to turn round to Norway and say forget your centuries old traditions of killing whales. Killing whales is not a thing that you should go round doing and and yet John 's quite happy to do that and I support John in in that approach. I'd like to address the reasons why I will be voting for this motion today. It's often put that hunting is good for the countryside that it's about controlling foxes the scientific evidence rather puts that to pay the scientific evidence certainly indicates that fox hunting makes very little difference to control of foxes in the countryside and there is some evidence to suggest that fox hunting actually encourages more foxes to breed and that we end up with more foxes, so it seems to be self defeating in that respect. There is of course the argument about the maintenance of the countryside and that the countryside only looks the way it does, because of the fox hunting. I think there are a lot of other factors that affect the countryside as we all well know. The way we farm. The nature of erm, subsidies from Europe and all others, other factors. I think this argument's about the benefit of the countryside is somewhat debatable to say the least And these arguments that are put about why we shouldn't ban fox hunts because of all the benefits and the tradition are exactly the same arguments that were put about otters and about badgers and about other sports that we have, that we no longer consider satisfactory and have opposed. From my point of view, one of the most powerful arguments that needs to be addressed is the argument about individual freedom and this is always important to me about, if you're going to take an action that limits somebody's freedom, you damn well have to have a good reason for it. There is no legislation to ban fox hunting yet. I'm quite sure that it will not be long before we see that happen. What we do have and have had for a long time in this country is an acceptance within our law and an acceptance within our definitions of freedom that there are responsibilities with freedom and those responsibilities in this particular case, we have long accepted the argument in this country, maybe not as much as erm, well more in fact than some of our colleagues abroad and maybe they could learn from us from this, but it is not acceptable to have the freedom to be unnecessarily cruel and in fox hunting we have a sport that is unnecessarily cruel, there are ways in which you can deal with rogue foxes, there are ways in which you can actually ensure that the fox community does not destroy the whole, er farming countryside. But fox hunting doesn't address that. Fox hunting falls purely and simply on the side of unnecessary cruelty. Freedom, because there is not the freedom here. I might suggest the other point, now I actually represent a city ward so I'm sure I'll hear the baying of the hounds that say why am I getting up and speaking. Well actually people in my area do have a concern about this, also though I was brought up in my teens at least within a rural area and I know full well that to hold certain views even those of the majority within rural areas, are not necessarily easily expressed and I have today been told of yet another example of this being the case. Where somebody goes to a public meeting and doesn't say Near time. anything but just listens and what happens, what happens to that, the vets that person's husband's livelihood is threatened, why are they threatened? They are threatened because the hunt turns round and uses its power over its tenants to force people to withdraw their, their. Time. Thank you. Thank you. When. I, I said near time, I advising people it's nearly time, when it is time they will most certainly know and emphatically it's time. So when the first warning, it's near time. Thank you. Next speaker Mr . Thank you Chairman. Erm, I want to er support er the amendment moved by er, erm, Mr and er erm I want to oppose the motion erm since people are tending to describe their, their background in respect of fox hunting. May I say that er, I've lived for nearly thirty years er, in Oakham which is in the er, in the centre of er fox hunting country. I've er, thank you, I've never seen a fox hunt erm I've er I think once er, once I got along to Cutts Close where the Boxing Day meet occurs and I can well accept that this Boxing Day meet draws a larger crowd of people from Oakham than any other activity through the year. So I don't speak really as a committed fox hunt or anti fox hunter er I speak erm,after a consideration of the matter er that that what have at issue here is er, the, the right of the tenant. If a man is paying his rent to his landlord he surely has the right to use er the land he is paying for and in the, in that matter of using it, surely is included the, the sporting right. erm. Hunting, let me remind those on the other side here, is still a lawful activity it's no good saying, ah, well Parliament's gonna pass an act against it soon. It may well pass an act against it soon, it may well be that a lot of people from over there will get elected and you'll get your bill, but then again it may not. Yes, yes Surely, in this country we have to obey the laws that are there, not the laws that are going some day to be passed. Sunday trading Tenants have, let me, let's stick with the motion shall we. The tenant has surely a right to carry out this lawful activity. Drag hunting's been mentioned from the tenant's point of view er, drag hunting doesn't control the fox and one of the reasons why the er, tenant er, allows fox hunting is that the, the fox is controlled by it. It's er,surely wishful thinking to assume that sweep away fox hunting, they're all gonna go drag hunting and all those jobs'll be saved. That's a fairly tenuous er sort of platform to get rid of those er hunting jobs and I'd've thought that er, a party whose leader Mr saw him, was it yesterday?,proclaiming the importance of er protecting employment and combating unemployment. Well surely some of that might filter down to this chamber. Let's not take chances er unnecessarily with the right, er wi with the e employment er of those in, in the hunting industry as it were. I don't think er Chairman, this, this county council is, is competent to do away with hunting. That, that I, I say is reserved for Parliament. er,Can I enter a plea for tolerance, if in a democracy it's very easy to get steamed up about things you don't like, things you find disgusting and revolting but if everyone is going to come forward, have banned the activity they don't like then we're going to live, it may be a democracy, but it's going to be a narrowed, er and intolerant society in which we live. Finally er, Chairman. My history books told me about those wicked aristocrats of the nineteenth century, they used their position as landlords to force their tenants to, to vote in a certain way, to force their tenants in other words to take up a particular position on a matter of controversy. Near time. I'm interested, thank you, I'm interested to notice that this nineteenth century attitude is being repeated now by er, our friends over there in the Labour party, erm and I must say, that really confirm what I've always thought that a lot of their attitudes and their mental furniture do in fact belong to that century. Er, Chairman I'd like to er, erm, oppose the motion and support the amendment. Here, here. Mr Thank you Chair. I would like to support the motion put in the name of Mr and I would like to speak against the amendment. I've heard what's Mr has to say. It was good. Yes, very good. You may think it's a fun having a blood game on your hand, you may think that your class used to also enjoy slavery two hundred years ago. Here, here, Listen, listen so you may have a right to defend at any cost which you think is privileged society the fact of the matter is people out there I received twenty seven letters in support against the fox hunting I did not receive a single letter asking me to support the fox hunting. Always against fox hunting, why is that? And it wasn't even from my constituency it was widely from the Leicestershire and coming back to our, our friend there Doctor er , I don't know what was the name there when he mentioned about what's the name? It it's er really put me off the track there, I'm sorry I. You're losing time. I was coming back to the fox hunting here, when it's mentioned sorry about that Chair. Men ,men , mentioned here by our friend, that Leicestershire has got no business to discuss about fox hunting, we are not elusive, there are other county councils who have banned fox hunting on their land, so do not make this as a sacrosanct and or something that Leicestershire are doing, they are not doing first, there are so many other county councils in this country and for your information, I was listening to radio four few days ago, even in Pakistan, a third world country, is banning hunting in their country, we should be ashamed of ourselves here to discuss, I agree with Councillor when the discussion start and he said move for the ward, because the logical thing was to move for the wards rather than discuss, if we all believe that this is horrible, acrimonious and abhorrent in today's day and age, as the slavery was abhorred two hundred years ago. So I move that we support the motion and speak against amendment. Thank you. Mr Thank you er . Can I first of all congratulate my colleague Graham, Graham on his measured speech, he's certainly given us many things to, to think about and things that should be investigated. Can I also say really I agree with Martin when he said erm, and has been saying for at least six months that surely we have more important things to, to talk about than, than this and I'm sorry for Martin that he had to erm, give in really and put this I was the movement of the amendment in January ninety two erm,which confirmed that the rights of tenants and old occupiers of land in county council ownership to er allow or stop fox hunting over land in their care. That was successful there er, er on that occasion and er of course I hope it, it will be successful again this afternoon. At that time, we, we received a petition from the tenants erm very much along the lines of the one that erm erm, er Mr has read out, at that time there was a petition from a hundred and eight county council tenants and one hundred and five of them in fact signed it and they, they asked for it to be allowed to keep the erm to have the freedom to decide whether or not hunting takes place. I think erm it is worth saying Chairman, it hasn't been mentioned yet, er that in fact we're talking about the the tenant farmers and their livelihood. Most of the tenant farmers i in this county I believe are dairy farmers and in fact they have their life savings tied up in their stock. They, they know what they have to do to protect that stock, to protect their life's interests and they, and they know they don't need to be told really by any officer here who are not in that not, not in that game, what they have to do that's what they're asking us to do and they certainly asked us to do that on the erm, on the tour of county farms that we had only, only a few weeks ago. I think it's also worth just bearing in mind that we're talking about only one percent of the erm of the farmed land i in this county, we're not talking about banning hunting in in er in Leicestershire,we're talking about what we're saying on one percent there are tens of thousand of fields in in this county nothing can change overnight, even if this er motion goes through because the tenants will still have the rights to decide, it's only when you actually start getting to new tenancy agreements that you will be in a position if you wish,to start to change things and therefore I suppose at the end of erm, at the end of five years you might have a hundred or two hundred fields on which this ban will apply but you will still have tens of thousand of fields on which the, the hunt will still be, the hunts in this county will still be free to, erm, to operate. I think we have to try and keep this in in proportion, we are really into a we are really into a gesture here an important gesture possibly, but nothing is going to change overnight and in fact very little will happen erm, for years, for years to come. I, I, do not understand Chairman that reading this motion, I've been trying to think about it, how on earth this is going to be monitored. How on earth are you going to how on earth are you going to put a a sign on certain fields that the hunt shall not pass? Are you going to say hunters will be prosecuted or something? Or are you going to electrify the, these fields? Are you going to have mounted policemen following the hunt round to ensure that they only steer their course along certain ways? Are you going to have stationary policemen guarding fields to ensure that only the fox can enter and not the, and not the hounds? Are you going to have countywide monitoring? Are we going to have er, erm, are we going to have some kind of reporting system, so that if a hunt actually enters erm, one of our fields, we're going to start denouncing tenants and have them hauled up in front of a disciplinary committee?. There are all kinds of questions that this matter raises in my mind which haven't been addressed. I only repeat what I said last time Chairman that if the, that if people do not understand the management of the countryside, that they leave it well alone. Here, here. Mr . Thank you Mr Chairman. In all probability not a single fox will live or die as a consequence of any vote we take this afternoon. As Mr pointed out in outline,our county estate of some eight thousand acres of which only three quarters or roughly six thousand acres is suitable for hunting, is less than one percent of the county's acreage of six hundred and fifty thousand. If hunting were banned on all of that it would only have a small marginal effect but we can as Mr said only ban hunting on land we both own and control, land in hand, that actually totals a hundred and fifty eight acres, slightly smaller than Victoria Park but that includes road, bridleways, land with no access, S S S Is, Sites of Special Scientific Interest, land awaiting disposal the land capable of being hunted and in hand totals fifty two acres about as much of Victoria Park as I can see from my front window. If you have the country parks and already there is no hunting on those parts open to the public there's just about another hundred acres, that's the Victoria Park or thereabouts in total. But that's not the end of it the Director of Property has very kindly plotted where this land is and I will show you the plan, the yellow spots are the land in hand. If the map of Leicestershire were a face it would have a few small pimples on its chin and they would take fifty years to come to a head. If you draw a line from Loughborough down the A six, through the city of Leicester and on to Market Harborough to the east of that line, in that part of the county where most of the hunting takes place, there is one small piece of land, less than one acre, somewhere near Thorpe Satchfield which we actually control. As I said, it would take fifty years before any decision we reach here, even made an impression on the one percent of land we do own. So, those who do not support hunting will do nothing practical to protect foxes, if they vote for this motion today in that respect it is and I suggest the people who move it know that it is, nothing but sanctimonious twaddle. They would be voting to divert attention from the one place where the merits or otherwise of fox hunting should be decided and considered amongst M Ps, you will note amongst MPs not by government, this is a matter for a free vote of conscience. About the only decent argument I've heard on this, I have to say that because it was my daughter who advanced it, about the only decent argument I have heard is the one about badger baiting where she said to me but badger baiting is not allowed on your land and that is the point precisely that Mr made, it is not allowed because that is the law of the land and that is where decisions about the permission or otherwise of fox hunting should be made. This is an issue of individual conscience of M Ps. Whatever is happening elsewhere there is not today, there is no one man one, one man one vote here. We can all watch for the Labour block vote at the end of this debate as a matter of principle, I could never vote in support of the Labour whip. So this debate is not about saving foxes, it will achieve nothing for animal welfare it is not about the merits or otherwise of fox hunting, from which it diverts attention, it is about the county council seeking to make hollow gestures against their tenants' rights. Gestures which are not within the normal scope of the private landlord, gestures of a political kind that could be a dangerous precedence for other political and possibly improper objectives in the future. That is why I will support the amendment and if that fails Near time. I shall play no further part in this debate which should not be taking place. It can have no practical effect and will only divert attention from where it should be pressed by those who feel strongly about it. I do hope Mr Chairman that those members who oppose fox hunting will feel that they should do the same. Thank you. Mr . Thank you Chair. Erm first of all I would like to make the point that er it's typical of our friends over this side to arrange an ethic dimension when they were er opposing their amendment, it confuses the issue, it is racist and shouldn't occur. As a Labour councillor of a rural part of Leicestershire, a very beautiful po part of rural Leicestershire erm I've taken a straw poll amongst my farming friends and er when I talk about fox hunting they er roll and shrug their shoulders, there's no problem and if fox hunting is er part of the culling process, they don't have a problem. They don't have a problem at all it doesn't seem to er be part of their daily lives er, that said I do have a farmer of my acquaintance, when I say my acquaintance he happens to be my son-in-law. He er, is a sheep farmer and er, two or three years ago the Atherstone passed through his land and er ran amuck amongst his flock and he lost actually three in lamb ewes who drowned in a local river. At the same time the hunt passed further on and his wife, my daughter,er had two horses which bolted in a field and leapt the farm gate and er, took off and were caught two miles away. That's the other side of fox hunting, which I think we don't hear. When they complained to the hunt er, the Master brought er a leg of pork round, not a leg of lamb I might add, a leg of pork to er, appease them er one other point, ooh yeah, there was, is one other point actually, when my daughter challenged the hunt she was appalled by the arrogance of these pink coated hooray Henrys who totally ignored her plight and er just carried on with whatever they wished to do. One other point Mr Chair, if I could crave your indulgence you will er, I think you all know that Leicester City Football Club are playing this evening at Middlesbrough. I hope you'll soon be done. and that, that, as a result of that we could be, Leicester City could be at the top of the first division, I know the Chairman follows the Philbert Street Foxes, I would hope that this chamber will support the Leicestershire foxes when it's time to take our vote. Thank you. Mr . Er, Mr Chairman, I'd like to make some observations. I'd like to make the observations because I'm of the opinion that most members came into this chamber this afternoon with their minds completely and utterly made up and there is very little that we can do in this chamber this afternoon to change people's minds. So they are observations and it is my feeling that this motion has taken on significantly more importance than its content or indeed its effect. I only wish and I mean this very sincerely I only wish we could spend as much time and as often as is spent discussing fox hunting on the county's homeless, on abused children, on the handicapped, on the increasing crime and on unemployment and I only wish that the media and the public and even members of this council would take as much notice of that as they do about this debate on fox hunting. I am also concerned that after this debate there will be no winners not even the fox, for it will be killed it will be killed in some way or another and the feelings that are left between the two differing sides will harbour grudges and resentment for many months to come and I'd like to also bearing in mind the comments that were made by Councillor ask how committed the people who have proposed this mo motion are against barbaric sport. I regard barbaric sport, not only perhaps as fox hunting but also such things as boxing, where two people, two individuals do their best to hit the life out of the other and it is watched by thousands of people. Now the Labour party control the city council, may I say this, that if your feelings are against barbaric sport as much as that, why don't you use your contr , your controlling power on the city council and then ban boxing in all the city establishments, then you will show me that you mean what you are saying and that you are not just using the present position of this council for a political measure and political gain and I'd like to also ask what this has cost the council what this has cost could be thousands. The very meeting itself is thousands of pounds, the time we have spent on it is thousands of pounds. Many times in this council when we've been discussing more important points, when we've been discussing the needs of people who have real needs, we have not been able to have our priority we have not been able to have our priority because we could not afford it. Can we afford not only the debate today but can we afford it in another eighteen months? I don't think so I believe that the hunting fraternity is not blameless and indeed the, all their arguments are not quite correct in every sense but I firmly believe that there are more important matters for this council to to debate and spend its time and money on. Thank you. Chairman, the last speech was really explaining what I want to get over the fact that so many people want to talk on the issue and to complicate the issue. The debate on fox hunting has become unnecessarily complex and that can only suit the pro hunters because the basic objections to hunting are obscured. The more complicated you make the issues, the more the basic objections become obscured. The fact is that any so called sport which involves the exhaustion, distress and eventual death of an animal has got to be obscene in the eyes of any human being. The county council has not got the power to ban fox hunting in total it can only ban it on the land which it owns or controls and that's what that motion seeks to do today. On the one hand we have the hunting fraternity saying that because they rarely catch and kill foxes, some say a two to three percent efficiency rate, er that it's not cruel yet on the other hand, they say that it's the most efficient and humane way to control the fox population. They can't have it both ways. I urge members, Chairman, not to hide behind this shabby amendment but to vote according to their consciences and their beliefs and to vote according to the views of eighty percent of the population that we represent and I urge other members to be as brief. Mrs Thank you Chairman. Shabby amendment, come off it Really shabby amendment, agree? No Really shabby Will you let the lady speak please, you've had your turn. Mrs would you like to speak. Thank you Chairman. Once again we meet to debate and vote on this highly emotive subject and it has always almost, it has already been apparent that it is very emotional. Barely eighteen months ago after the last time, what are we doing? I see my job as a county councillor as one of running the county council so that it delivers services to the people cost effectively and efficiently. Not telling some of the people in Leicestershire how to run their lives. Once again we see the Labour group in their true colours. Yes red. They are now the largest party in county hall but instead of, try It's no good congratulating yourself until you've actually achieved something primarily, you are address Chairman, instead of primarily addressing the issues of overspending on the education budget and the future of the elderly persons' homes and also the securing of a secure unit these are pushed into second place when the Labour group can see the opportunity of headline grabbing and satisfying their overriding need to tell everyone how to live. The country dwellers are saying leave us alone to run our own lives, after all when it comes to funding they are left to run their own lives anyway. Witness a paltry hundred thousand pounds for a new village hall, compared with the one million pounds on the Highfields Community Centre. Here, here. I hate hunting. I hate angling just because the fish doesn't scream it doesn't mean the hook didn't hurt when it was inserted and then taken out when the fish is thrown back into the water because it isn't big enough. People in the know say that the animal kingdom is cruel. But would, should we compound the issue by being cruel to the animal kingdom? But what I hate above all is this constant sanctimonious attitude of the socialists that they think they know best and their continuous craving to create a nanny state. I cannot vote for the banning of fox hunting on county council land as I see this as another attempt to limit freedom of choice. The county council tenant must be left to manage his business and land as he sees fit and this includes his individual conscious decision as to whether to allow fox hunting across his land. Chairman, I support Mr 's amendment and finally I would like to say that there are foxes alive and well in suburban Bristol in my parent's garden. Thank you Chairman. Mr . Chairman, erm, as I understand it this afternoon is, is a free vote and I, for that reason end there, I hope that persuade any waverers er one way, erm, at the moment we've got agreements with tenants and it's up to them to decide what to do with their land. We don't inter interfere with that and I don't think we should either. Those arrangements or agreements with, with us are within the law and that they're between consenting adults, I don't know what else they're gonna think of banning. Erm, it's a matter of choice a free choice within the present laws of this country er, even more important perhaps than that, that it really is up to the hunts to convince those farmers that the, that the farmers want them. I do ask any of you that are wavering to support the amendment which leaves the tenants with the right to manage their holdings, how they like and not to interfere with those rights. Here, here. I will observe, Chairman, that there are reasonable and honourable and relatively well meaning people who truly believe that they have a natural right to hunt down foxes with dogs indeed to call the dogs hounds and believe that nobody has the right to interfere with their pleasures er,i in press they would no doubt speak of the right of free born Englishmen to do what they like but I'd like them to consider Chairman,views of what it is right and proper for human beings to do have changed, as readers of John 's diaries will recall, barely three hundred years ago, he saw a woman being burned to death er in London for murdering her husband and people watched and no doubt thought that it was the right of free born Englishmen to enjoy the spectacle. Not many lives ago there were public hangings in this country and people certainly thought it was their right to watch and enjoy in fact, they even paid for seats to see public hangings, if they could afford to and as Mr has pointed out, er it 's not long ago er that bear baiting and badger baiting and cock fighting were seen as right and proper and no doubt spoken of as rights of free born Englishmen. Now, they would be thought obscene public perception has changed and understood that animals are sentient beings and that we demean our humanity if we are cruel to them or permit cruelty. I can't believe knowing er some of the people who do hunt, that their motive is actually that they want to see a fox torn to pieces. I believe the motive is in fact the enjoyment of riding a good horse fast over open country and I can understand that. They don't have to hunt foxes to do that the motion, the main motion not the amendment suggests drag hunting er they could, there there my, I think it means proper drag hunting not one er to previously er l l laid out er objectives er they could race each other, they can have treasure hunts, er there are plenty of ways in which they could enjoy riding. If their motive actually is er to enjoy seeing a fox torn to pieces er then I suggest to them er that is unbearable cruel there are of course objections to er this motion and to its further extension the banning of fox hunting altogether. We are told that foxes are vermin and it is necessary to hunt them down. Mr Chairman, if decent people find it necessary er to kill animals they believe be vermin they don't dress up in red coats and call them pink and er charge er, er, er, about er drinking st stirrup cups and tooting horns, er they go out and kill the vermin, it's a necessary job that has to be done and of course, er there are many ways in which foxes could be killed without cruelty if it is necessary to kill them. As a matter of fact, the hunt is a very ineffectual way of controlling foxes, er they record the number they kill and it's very, very few, a tiny percentage of the number of foxes there are in the countryside clever foxes er, as indeed I think Mrs mentioned, live in towns nowadays er, but there are still quite a lot in the countryside fortunately and they will survive er, though zoologists tell us er that er by instinct er they see that their numbers are controlled. Another objection is that jobs will be lost and certainly that would be a serious objection but it's a speechless one, of course, people who can afford it will still ride and will still employ the same people who are now hunt servants er to look after their horses and themselves and those who can't afford horses will continue no doubt to enjoy the spectacle er, that argument doesn't hold water and the other objection of course er is that er it would mean the hounds were killed, but since I understand er hunting people kill their hounds anyway when they get too old to keep up, er I think er we can dismiss that argument and leave it to them er to see that the hounds are decently dealt with. Mr , main argument of course er was er wholly spacious er with that proposed in the main motion would not stop any activities which are the proper aim of the agriculture act. It's true I think er as Mr said at some length er that er this measure would not prevent hunting in in most of the area in which it it takes place, through plenty of it happens of course well to the West of the A six er perhaps it might even get out there from time to time but our duty clearly is to see er that the right thing is done in the territory which is our responsibility and our other responsibility is surely to set an example of decent humanity. I invite er Mr and his supporters to get out of the age of Dickens and into the twentieth century. Well done. Mr Yes, thank you Chair. er, erm, speaking in favour of the motion against the amendment, quite strongly against the amendment because I don't believe it moves that debate any further and the debate, as a number of speakers have said, will go on beyond this chamber, Chair. I hope I am not a chair, this is the chair, I'm the Chairman please. My apology Chairman. My apology, your prerogative. Chairman, the motion before us today if passed, will act as a lever a lever against the weight which is rolling inextricably forwards. Parliament will debate this issue and I'm quite sure as a number of people are, that Parliament will vote in favour of a ban. Can I, for the benefit of members opposite who, who always seem to believe that people on this side of the chamber are townies and don't know anything about anything other than street lighting for the benefit of members opposite and for the public gallery outside, can I say that in my younger days, a million years ago, I rode with hunt. Ooh, ooh. I followed on foot, by car and by horse, I enjoyed it. But like a number of other people before me I turned and I turned in response to totally unnecessary violence. Like speakers before me this afternoon Chairman, I object to barbarism. I object to the attitude that we have a right to kill to dispose of. The argument has been made clearly and repeatedly that fox fox hunting with hounds is not effective. Farmers themselves will say there are better ways of controlling fox population. Rubbish. It might be rubbish, try talking to a farmer occasionally. Should you have declared an interest Mr ? Chairman, we are debating a motion which will we are debating a motion this afternoon Chairman which will ban fox hunting on land that we control. The object of the exercise is to move the debate forward to another place where another group of individuals will also have a free vote and it's quite rightly been said. I used to be a hunt supporter, I used to be a hunt follower I gave up because I object to an attitude of a society of people that life is disposable having seen wounded fox hounds and that is the proper term having seen wounded fox hounds despatched with a revolver because they've got a broken leg having charged full pelt across a public road and hit a motor car coming the other way and fortunately not injured the occupants of the motor car having seen the damage that a pack of hounds in full cry can do to land that they are not entitled to be upon because fox hounds can't read. They don't know which side of the road they're supposed to be, all they know is they are bred and trained to chase. Having seen the damage that a pack of hounds will do to domestic pets it far outweighs in my mind Chairman, any damage that a fox can do, that a fox hound can stop them doing. There are methods available to control foxes. The age old argument about the damage that a fox does in a hen coup is clearly un unfounded A farmer who allows a fox to get into his hen coup deserves everything he gets. Chairman as a former supporter of fox hounds I have to say I am no longer a supporter of fox hounds, I would see the law of this land used to ban hunting with hounds and I support the motion. Thank you Chair. Mr Bernard First of all I'm surprised at the outburst that was given to us by Mr I would regard as my er yahabeebee and sadiki if you wish er, but he mentioned in fact the er, what used to be barbaric ac , barbaric er practice in er Pakistan. I wish he could use his Saudi influences to prevent the barbaric practice of decapitation of human beings which takes place every Friday in the square at Riyadh in Saudi Arabia. Now the other thing I would say, I support in fact Mr amendment and I oppose the motion. Destruction of vermin on county council owned farms is within the remit of the tenant farmer. Also I express surprise at the Labour leader's volte face a short while ago in the press he reported that he had more important matters to think about, or discuss insofar as fox fox hunting was concerned or words to that effect. To its enthusiasts hunting and especially fox hunting is more than a sport it is a national institution enjoyed equally by all countrymen and I emphasis all countrymen. Institutions enjoyed equally by all countrymen, I again emphasise that in the hunting field social distinctions do not exist and those who follow houn hounds start equals receiving consideration exclusively through their own merits. However, what is the lynchpin as I see it, of the debate today is the deprivation of civil liberties as proposed by the Labour group. All be it a tenant,whether or no a tenant farmer must have the privilege of deciding who is invited onto his farm. Also for that matter, a tenant hand, a householder has the rights to invite who he wishes into his own house, this one sided dictatorial attitude of the Labour group to determine who can, who cannot enter his home is er contrary to my philosophy anyway Chairman. Thank you. Mr Unlike Mr I have always found fox hunting distasteful, I have never participated in it, I have never followed it and I don't think that I I ever want to and er, I have I am not convinced by either economic or the put forward in its favour. I shall nevertheless vote against the motion and I shall vote for the amendment although as much as I wished it had happened or,or erm a different proposal to Mr because I don't think it helps your argument when you call your opponents instead of arguing face and er unlike Mr I actually do believe its in subsidiarity and I think we should accept Leicester and Leicester only and what the Leicester hunt will do should be decided here in Leicester, not in Westminster, er any more than the composition of our offices should be, should be decided in Brussels and I believe in subsidiarity. The reason I shall vote against the motion and for the amendment couldn't have been put more succinctly than it was by Mr , I think Mr made the most pertinent remark that has been made in the debate today, when in opposition to what Mr said about individual freedom he said this is a matter of personal conscience. This is a matter of personal conscience and what every member in the council chamber today must be aware of, is that there is a vociferous and committed group of people we know that because we've all had a great deal of communication from them and interestingly enough I have and most of the communication I've had has been in favour so victory, people who write must be extremely perceptive in, with er marketing the that's not the point, we all know that there is a committed and vociferous group of people whose consciences do not lead them to the same conclusions as Mr 's conscience and the issue really is, do we in a liberal and democratic society have the right to impose our consciences on those of other people who live in the community and quite clearly and quite determinedly take a different view. That's the issue. Now I believe that you test the liberal democracy, not by the ease with which majorities get their way but on the extent to which you accommodate the views of committed minorities and we've lived so long with majority rule, masquerading as democracy, that we've forgotten that that is more akin to dictatorship than anything else. So for that reason I do not believe that I feeling strongly as I do should im impose my views on others. This issue comes up time and again for example there is an equally divided community in Britain, a divided position on matters like abortion. There are some people who say abortion is murder, it should be not allowed that, that there are others equally we say that we women to determine what happens to their own bodies and their destiny is for them, I respect that view too but in those circumstances you don't resolve problems by the majority whatever it happens to be determining what the minority will do. You in fact, leave the matter open so that each of us as individuals do what our personal consciences tell us. I would never hunt, I will also not demand that anybody else hunts and I don't think other people should say to me what I should and what I should not do and I think that's the issue. Mrs Thank you Chairman. Erm, I would like to say at the start. I don't hunt. That makes a lot of horses in Leicestershire very happy What I would say Chairman is that I will defend the right of the tenant farmers to make their own minds up, just as much as I will defend the rights of council house tenants to say what goes on in their houses. It is the very same thing erm could I say that two people have written to me, two of my constituents and I do agree that that they have a point. They are asking that I should support the ban on fox hunting. One is a Mr Fox and the other one's a Mrs Fox, the cards are here if you'd like to see them . I also Chairman have the easy answer to the control of pests. Don't vote Labour at the next election. Right, we've come to the end of the speakers, we now have we now have the. Wait a minute I'm coming to that. We now have the right of reply in the er second reserved remarks of Mr er Mayor er Mrs and then finally Mr . So will you like to come in now Mr . Not a lot to say Mr Chairman, I think it's all been said one way or the other. But a few comments which seem to be apposite erm, we don't want to kill animals with cruelty do we not? What about the Halal meat, in this county where three years ago we had a meeting and they decided that animals that were slaughtered without being stunned with sheer terror, who are allowed to bleed to death because this is what a particular group believed in and we did it. Er, Mr brought slavery into it, but no one had more slaves than India and the Moguls and what about suttee where widows were burned alive on the funeral pyres of their husbands and still leap and still the system was des er was stopped by the English Just a moment the door was opened by Mr talking about slavery we don't shut it on harems and eunuchs and all sorts of things. I also remember Mr at a previous meeting told us we have no right to pontificate on Moat Centre because we didn't live there but you've got every right to pontificate on the on the hunting even though you don't live there er, Mr I dunno, barbarism, is this, is this for the Labour a free vote. I don't think the Labour'd know a free vote if it bit him on the leg. I accept the Liberal's is and so's the Conservative, but I'd be interested to know whether anyone allows a free vote ever in the Liberal party. Mr when he proposed this er amendment said precisely what it was. We are not talking about the merits and de-merits of fox hunting we are not talking whether they die slowly or fast or what should be done. We are talking here about the rights of the tenant farmers to use the land which they have from you and what do you suggest that it be done? At the moment the tenant has the right to ban any fox hunting from his f er er land if he wants to. That of course will go and what's more there's going to be some drag hunting on his land of which he will not be consulted because if you had to negotiate with organisations for controlled access to its land for the use of drag hunting. I presume a committee here will decide and sit as to which land shall have dag, drag hunting and the er the land the tenant will have no rights in that at all and if you're thinking you can control horses that are taking part in a drag hunt any more than you can control horses taking part in a fox hunt, you've got to have another think. You'll still have the same trouble. You are taking rights away and you are giving them no consultation at all. This says quite clearly what Mr moves. There's one person, group of people not mentioned in his amendment in his proposition and that is the tenant farmers. Can he remember Moat Centre? Can you remember we had a judicial review? He went there and back and do nothing to the people bol er er involved, being consulted and we've had that going on for two years no consultation here has taken place with the people who it affects and there's nothing in your motion to say it will. I think this ought to be thrown out not necessarily on the rights or wrongs of fox hunting but on a procedural thing that you've brought about where a dictatorial attitude is brought about by the Labour party that have the right apparently to say exactly what'll happen on someone else's land. Now if you want to do this in a proper way, then you do it in a proper way. I don't mind if you write to all the tenants and say please don't have foxes on your land, we don't like it. That's alright. But you're not right for you t start passing laws, which any case you can't adhere to until you have new er er tenancy, you can't enforce them. I don't know whether it makes any difference for the price you will get in the land, for the land, from a tenant, if you restrict his rights to use it. Don't forget that in his tenancy agreement, he has a duty to control pests, which includes foxes. You put that in his deed but the way that most of them do it through foxing through, through er hunting, you're taking away from them. This is a whole of a mish-mash, I think we ought to go back to what we did in nineteen ninety two, its the twenty ninth of January and to confer the rights of tenants and other occupiers of land to allow or stop fox hunting or any other hunting over land in their care and least trust some people instead of this business of we know best. This is not about democracy, this is dictatorship, your trying to practice over a minority of people in this county. Here, here please. Er, the debate this after er this afternoon has centred on adult views of fox hunting. Well I'd like to say that it's not only adults who have an interest in this subject and have been watching what the county council is going to do about it. At the weekend I received a letter and a petition from a young girl called Frances aged nine years old and it brought it home to me that it isn't an adult centred er erm issue, that it's one for everybody who lives in Leicestershire. Unfortunately it was received too late to go through the formal council procedure, but I do hope that you allow me to hand it to the council secretary later who it is addressed to. The letter is short and I would like to read it. It starts Dear county secretary. I am writing to you on my views of fox hunting. I was against this sport all along, but it is only now that I have read the page in the Leicester Mercury that I feel bold enough to speak out to you. Sport I agree, can be played, but I don't call fox hunting or cub hunting a sport. It is an inhuman, heartless massacre a murder, an unasked for and undeserved murder, a murder of innocent, lively, living, intelligent foxes. We have a fox that lives near us and I have spent many a night and a morning watching it frolicking and jumping about and it breaks my heart to think that many of its kind are suffering death at its worst. Imagine if you were a vixen scared and frightened, seeing her cubs destroyed. Many suffer this way yet some people don't care. Some people like and enjoy it. There are jobs around that don't involve animals. Now I talk fox hunting. Think it and dream it. In my mind I won't rest till I know that I have done something, no matter how small to bring this ban closer to a stop. I look forward to hearing your opinion on this matter. Signed Frances, aged nine. Nine And this child. That's right and that's a credit to the education system of Leicestershire. Here, here And Frances has also collected a petition of sixty four children at her school which I will also hand over to the county secretary. I think it's very clear that its fox hunting should be banned in Leicestershire. I support the motion of Councillor and Councillor . Thank you Chair. Er, before I call Mr can I compliment the council on the way that this debate has gone. A lot of people anticipated a lot of ill feel , well a lot of ill feeling being expressed. Thank you for not doing that. Thank you for the complimentary way you've acted. Mr . That's stumped my reply. Now I, I won't, I won't go for this vote because at the end of the day I I don't think it'd be er er productive, it'd be counterproductive erm, I do hope that you around the chamber tonight, do look inside and say look if you're fed up with it coming to the council Mr whatever your name is, I forget, the new guy er, it will only come back next year. Get rid of it now. Vote for our motion and go for higher places. Mr Er, I I do apologise but erm I've never known a fox yet drop a cattle, a stock, er something that big, when, when you said farmers and their cattle, their d mostly dairy farmers and all the rest of it I've never seen a fox do that. In actual fact I've got a friend and I go potholing with him, we meet, he's a Kendall farmer, he's a a sheep farmer and er, we meet and he says you know what I've got a problem with on my land, not foxes dogs and walkers that haven't got them on the leads and crows at lambing time cos they peck their eyes out and things of that calibre, he says yes, I'll tell you what I'll bet you I've had animals taken by foxes he, he says I probably have, he said but I've not had this kind of unindeighted killing as. Well er they've got erm a hundred places I think. I think it's a hundred places, and there are about a thousand something sa Oh! Oh! Oh! Oh! Oh! students went Oh! and erm eight hundred have been turned downed already, they've didn't get an interview so the chap said well your to get an interview it's good. Yeah. But most of them you see, are at a county standard in in in er erm oh like in Competition like. yeah, it's like in er erm Yes, it's competition Margaret. But Claire said they kept coming up to her and saying what are you erm what do you stand as being county for? And things like this you see ! And when has she done this ? That's what Derek told her. Well Derek's been telling her for ages you see, to to join the Yeah. into level to erm And she's gone into the second years, you go there when Yeah. you got competition. Well she's an old said she's a bit old to be doing this, because you know, I suppose She's not? Well no. I don't think that should bother her. a bit old because erm Oh God! I dunno, something about Oh I thought that was mine. No it's not. It is yours isn't it? No. It's a . Ooh ! Well I suddenly, that's what I thought, thought that. I would have thought it Yes. had done well. I thought with all this . Oh! Wha Erm what a shame! So she's a bit disappointed, course she is! Well sh she's a bit down. And then she's got the one from Charnd, you know, being rejected again. Oh I'm so sorry! Of course there is such competition Yeah. involved now. And I said it's, that's what Derek said because there aren't any jobs around you see Yeah! they're all going to college. Shh! Shh!. I know. Shame tha , it's not this one. Oh yeah. She erm Ooh I'm so sorry! She said, what a waste of time! She said they're absolutely absolutely useless! Is that what he said? But you said that she'd got the interview Margaret Yeah. is that right? Yeah. Bu bu , but I mean but they're not expecting to have it on a plate! Think of the positive . Don't they Margaret? He thinks , and said well no Well no. so, he said that she's feeling a bit down in the dumps and quite moody. Well, you see the you say they are but that doesn't mean anything. I mean No. it could be, I mean i if she's if she's interested in it. Well apparently she said stands her in good stead because They, they left here erm about half past eight, twenty to nine and they got to about half way they hadn't been gone twenty minutes and I thought, oh she's left her photographs, she had to get four passport photographs and she'd left them here and I thought we'd send them, send them to her and she didn't like them you see, but she'd have them. So I phoned Derek on the car phone and erm he says oh we'll get some taken elsewhere. So when they left Bristol they went to find a place that takes,, then they took the wrong turning off the Sto , the mo the motorway. the motorway ! And then, her interview was one o'clock she didn't go in till quarter to three! Oh! And Derek was sat waiting all that time, but they must have panicked then so they erm we'll have to wait and see. Oh Margaret! Keep our fingers crossed for the poor kid! I'll think we'll have to wait and see. Keep our fingers crossed for her. How's your bathroom going? Well that just . Oh dear! Ah erm Well no, it's sa it's not been to too bad really but erm, today there are children there and that front door was open. Oh! And that's the first time Oh! it's happened. They're not very clean workers. Aren't they? No. No. Oh! But still, erm and of course you miss and ta erm gotta keep on running up the stairs Yeah! you know. But I I, I mean really and truly I'm moaning a bit but I, it's not quite so bad being near there. What's it looking like? But do you know what it is? What? the, the far wall. I see. What's wrong then? Do you know, I said that, you see, I said be careful! Said Angie did that didn't I? Well we, really must get one, one today . Well why didn't he put something in Well I didn't know. You not being . Pierced it! Absolutely pierced it was. What do the tiles Mm? what do the tiles look like? Oh not bad! But I'm Oh! not having an arch, I thought about it and I thought I don't think it'll in here. No. And I thought, if he's a bit apprehensive then I'm not having it done. So I'm have it straight across and I've had a border put across there just to make Yeah. a bit of a feature of it. Yeah. And once again he didn't put it as low as I wanted. Oh. And then, well I wanted it one tile lower, but I thought he bloody would have done it ! Mm. But I looked at it and I thought well I'm being silly here because, it's not keeping that for me,, you see he's given me a bit of and Mm. because if he put the bath right in there, I would be standing up at the end of the bath Yeah. really, rather than anything else. I mean, I must a , be able to stand up. And so, you can't really get under the canape put up your shower, this is what I wanted, I wanted it to look like a cubicle Oh I see. right? Yeah. But, can't do that, and I thought well it doesn't really matter. But, you see, you could see the extractor fan, so I said to him look, I asked you, he said, oh I thought you sa , I said, no, I said to you I don't like seeing that extractor fan you Mm. see. Mm. Well I said,back there I'll move it across. Mm. So he's moved it Mm. so that you can't see the fan there. Yeah. I said, well as long as you can do that I shall stick with the other. Mm. I said, in fact, I think it might look better. Mm. You see, I wanted it on the level with the windowsill Mm. I mean, I mean . But erm erm, I'll just there. Yeah, I remember you don't. No. And it's half the problem Well I suppose it's the way you wanted. No! You see I, I feel a bit disa , look at that building that that's And you see is Margaret, when Gerry used to do it I could change my mind half way Yeah. through. You see, if that didn't go, I'd say Gerry try it there, not don't do that, try it. Well you can't do that, and he'd do this like that! I know! Yeah. I really Well that's your weakest area But Gerry didn't have confidence you see so he used to sort of rely on me to tell, but you will come to the conclusion that if I had would have said Gerry's workmanship was absolutely superb! And he used to sort of be embarrassed about it. Well of course it's superb, he was a perfectionist! He was, it was superb! I mean, I feel a bit, and he used to sort of denigrate it. Yeah. You see, he didn't have the confidence Which is worse isn't it? Yeah. I mean he But when I went in, Gerry's workmanship, when I think of those cupboards he put in for me Mm. in South Penaton Mm. they were absolutely brilliant! And the kitchen and bathroom he did for me in Teddington and ! Yeah, cos that that was Gerry's trouble wasn't it? Yeah. Yes. He was too much of a Yeah. perfectionist, that was his trouble. But he, he used to sort of say, oh don't tell people, you know, he'd think . Mm. But it was absolutely superb! And his tiling, Gerry's tiling Mm. and he's tiled all that kitchen! Is there? Yeah! Yeah. And it was absolutely wonderful! Yeah. But mind, it took a long time. Yeah. Which is why he was Yeah. But, no, I wished I had, I wish he'd come back and I, and he could see how good, how Mm. really good! And that patio, do you know there's nothing wrong with it! Absolutely everything was level and everything. You won't get one shaped like that today. Well , you see I'm gradually learning this Mm. Margaret, you see, cos Gerry used to behave as if , his was sub-standard and a professional Mm. would be proud of it. Mhm. I come, I realise now that Gerry's Mm. was perfect, just about perfect. Mm. But erm But he worried too much about this. Yes! You see, and you see, I used to say but Gerry as long as it's up to your usual and it looks alright . Yeah. But you see,. But anyway, I've come to the conclusion that he, I mean, his work is, it was absolutely superb, but I mustn't expect that. But having said that, he's doing it quite nicely and so I mean, I'm not denigrating. No. I mean that plastering on that inside of that cupboard is perfect! Who did it? He he did? No , no the other. Oh the other one plastered it? What the builder? No. The plumber. Oh did he? It is like silk! Oh! He's good then? Oh he's good. Yet, he has . But he, he's put some shelves in and I don't need those shelves. You know, in the airing cupboard, stacks Yeah. he's put me in two rows like that Yeah. and they're, the cupboard is far back enough for me to be able to get to the top, even though there's only a doorway there Oh! Good! and they, they're gonna put my light in there Oh good! That's good! I'm gonna get my light in there. Oh! So then, be able to see. And, he's gonna put me another er shelf, another thing actually I'm going to put hooks on. Mm. But I'm very, very pleased with that cupboard! I should keep some off the floor, I think it should be in Yeah. And also, you don't get dust and dirt, if they're on the floor it seems to gather on the floor Yeah. but if you hang them up I think it's better. Yeah. Well it looks better. But I think you can, you can get them all in the cupboard now Yeah. Well if you You get th have a good tidy you are aren't you? Yeah. Then you'll be able to put your ironing board in there. Yeah! And then And my , and my erm, and my erm er clothes horse. Just gonna get my , yeah it's ever so big! Oh that's good then isn't it? I'll be able to put all my in. I'll be able to put my and the iron in. Are you? Mm? Oh! I'm hoping to anyway. This poor shelf gets worse and worse ! I know! I'll get myself a new one. Is that the one of mine you borrowed to do the Yeah. I'll get myself, I know it's past it, but it it does, it does! She said to me how long ago did you have this? And er, donkey's years! Donkey's years! isn't it? Mm! But er, when I got ti all tidied up and sorted out I'll get myself a new one, but er Yeah. Yeah. Yeah you must come. How did you go on at the fox hunt today? Oh yeah! But it's a mess! I dunno Well I would say well yo , they What are they doing all for No! No. Oh well the children are on holiday. Oh is that what it is? Yeah. They're on half term. Well maybe isn't it? Yeah. Well I remember at erm a i i Wendy she used to be full time, I mean the shop . Mm. To give out a lecture on fighting and . So the other girls were there and we were meaning to talk and erm when we went to cash up everybody was interfering and bother, I don't know, got Mm. on my nerves, you know! Mm. And er, it took us a little time to do that but and it was alright, but, well, but she bought us doughnut in company. Oh! So she ne , never even brought us a doughnut! Oh! It was just dreadful! That shop . Oh, that's supposed to be a good shop! Ooh! Do you know that's doughnut then is one of these chewiest most uninteresting doughnut, I mean, I've ever eaten! Cos they queue in our bread shop. Well! I, I was surprised They're queuing there. Absolutely amazed! That is now, I don't think it does so well. Cos Betty's used to be in Kwicksave. Yeah. And they used to do very well in there. And then when they went over to the other side of the road which I don't walk on very often No! erm I don't think they do so well. No. And in, Claire always says there's th , there's a la , dogs sniff around the back of there all the time Mm. by the, you know the cheese shop that used up above Oh God, yeah! she said there's always dog in with the cleaners! Shouldn't like that! So she says, she always says to me don't buy erm No. things in that Mm, in that shop. Mm. But I was, very disappointed tonight but I hope it, pay too much notice cos they're quite expensive aren't they? Yeah. Have you ever been there actually. Ah! No. No, so don't like her doughnut, I mean, this was a horrible No. one! Oh I don't anyway. I looked in the Help the Aged this afterno , it's closed again you know! tt! Ah is it? When I've got some more time I'm going to offer my services again. Well it was shut on er Thursday, Saturday till four o'clock and nobody was in there and that was half past two! I expect, you see, see they can't get the staff. and I think they come Yeah. to help out. Well anyway, I I'll definitely go up for half a day a week you know. Well I don't think, I, they didn't have much in the window, I couldn't see very much cos there wasn't a light on. It's nice and clean in there! Mm. Right, you were going to tell me about Jean now. Yes the er builder's broken her bath Have they? he dropped a tile in there. That's exactly what Andrew did. Mm. But he's managed to get another one. What, another bath? Mm. To go round the er, to to match, I suppose it's the same, I don't know. She says she's fed up with having them there. So they had to take the bath completely out Yeah. again. It's been ti , it's been tiled as well. Mm. That's exactly what Andrew did. Mm. That's how fragile they are. Dropped a tile and it pierced it right the way through. Yeah. Mm. Well it must have been pretty thin to do that anyway. Well she said it was same bath didn't she? Anyway She wanted me to go and have a look at it with that still in there. And then she's going home today. I went to these people today Mm. absolutely over the moon with this job! Tha they are just absolutely delighted! Did Julian do it well yesterday? Yeah! It looks lovely! Does it look nice? Mm. And erm he practically cleared everything out off the property Mm. so when I got there it was just a case of clearing up. Andrew, can't, can't, can't go Can't go back till he's finished. there until eleven Oh well you'd better tell him then. Well I'll phone Andrew this Mm. evening. He's got i , a dental appointment. Oh! Well isn't the lady there? Well they don't really know Andrew do they? So No. I don't think they wanna leave him in the house on his own. Oh I see. Oh he's started this other job Oh he's started it? Well, he he he works like the clappers he does! He was there when I got there and erm the er the gravel, the chap delivered the gravel Mm. and er when he got there Je , er er erm, Julian and I were loading about a ton of turf into my van and I was gonna take it to Caffer Cliss but he said for fifteen quid I'll take that, I'll take that away for you. So I said to, and Julian said well he says it's not worth us doing if he, and I said yeah well, fifteen quid that was cheap! It filled his his truck up so he said when he comes back on the next delivery he'll take all the turf away for fifteen quid. Mm mm! So we that meant, say, that I instead of me being away from the property for about two and a half hours, taking the turf back Caffer Cliss we saved all that time. Oh! And where was he gonna take it then? Well I'm not interested where he takes it! No. Anyway, when he, when he came back again we had to come back cos see we had another delivery of gravel and we ordered three yards and we reckon that on the last journey we bought two yards, we've got over a yard too much gravel! That's almost enough to do our garden path. Oh! Which is a nuisance really because we gotta move it now! Yeah! What do you mean for the er place? Mm. Oh. We had er What do you call it? Erm we had two people today who rushed out on the main road. One lady thought we were turfing and she said could we turf the lawn for her? And we said, yes. Gave her the leaflet. And the , and then another person asked, so what I did I put my leaflets on the wall Mm. and we're right on the main road and I reckon about two hundred people walked past the garden today watching us. Not taking the leaflets? Julian said a couple of people took the leaflets. Oh. Cos he he really does it, I don't know how he does it really, how he gets it all level like that. I mean, it's a big area we're doing. I did all the er all the labouring, bringing in the cement mixing Mm. it up ready and he, he made the slabs. Oh! It says And here that Sassafras has been named potentially unsafe for consumption. So, don't put any in your mouth. Saxa what? Saxa frall that's a plant! I know it's a plant! Why is it un he erm He's heard I thought you told me Claire that you were delivering a project today. Tomorrow. Oh! What what's it for? What? Sa sa It just says it's un , unsafe Yeah , but what do you grow in there But what do you take it for? don't have everybody eating Saxafrazz I thought that was a flowering plant! What do you take it for? It says these herbs do turn up in some food supplement. Oh! And it says her, dyslexia dyslexic people have different sized brains from normal people. That's why you got such a big head! What bigger or smaller? Erm they have a slightly enlarged left hemisphere that's associated with pinky. Oh! Oh! Your library fine was twenty P and yours was twenty P. I've put your eighty P out there. Twenty pence! Mm. Couldn't you count? Why?? It should have been twenty forty, six, eighty pence. Twenty P she said. Who's did she look at first? Dad's? Yeah, well Mm. she obviously took them both for the same thing didn't she? Well I don't know. She just, twenty P for both of them! God! I said, but they're not mine they're my husband's and my daughter's. So what work have they got on today then? Anything happen yesterday when you weren't there? No. Well, we were going up to, we were going up to Bristol so we put the car phone in the took the car phone with us, right? We got about twenty minutes away from the house and the phone starts ringing Just going past Cheltam Marshall weren't we? Yeah , the phone That was me. No. So Yes it was, it was me It was mum. No way , it was, it was a house trying to check up call apart from Oh. that By the phone. and this chap said erm he said, I'm sorry to trouble you we've sent you an invitation to come to this building thing and I sa I thought it was a funeral thing! fu Funeral! Roofing! Oh I thought you said a funeral It's a roofing , one thing or other. And erm Claire spoke to him first of all, and we decided to pull over and talk to this chap cos he was going on and on, and I said to her Can you make it? I know it's short notice. Are yo , are you sure? Yeah I'm sha , sorry to trouble you, and, we were going on and on and on about it! You come to this seminar or something or other. And I said erm are you sure you've got the right number? I said. I haven't been invited to a seminar. He said well you're something roofing aren't you? I said, no we're not. I said what number did you dial? And he said . Oh! Yours is seven isn't it? Yeah. And then we got about another half an hour and we had another call. And that was Mr Ju somebody. Mr wanting to know where his piece of wood is. Oh! I might try and do that, I'll do it tomorrow. Haven't you got it yet? No! Well that's not very good is it? You said you'd have it to him on Tuesday! It's Friday tomorrow! I don't call that very punctual Yes I know, but I service! I know that but I'm only doing this as a favour, and I've gotta really go out of my way to get this piece of wood. There's no profit in it Claire. There's no money in it for me. And if there's no money in it for me I'm not gonna give priority to going picking up a piece of wood for a customer. That's not a very Christian attitude. Get off! Oh I'm sorry! But it's not is it? No, but dad's not Christian so that's okay then innit? No, but I'm not, I'm not in business to run around picking up pieces of wood Yeah but you should have said you were gonna do it should you? And he's not even a customer! You shouldn't have said you were gonna do it if you don't do it. Yes, but I did it for him fo , I I've already done it for him once, I picked up exactly what he wanted, I delivered it to him and now he's changed his mind and but I'm not in the business to supply things, I'm not a supp shop! Is that bloke with the fence? Mm. Oh is that who it But I will pick it up for him tomorrow. Anyway, Aunty Jean's quite pleased with her bathroom, she says it looks a lot bigger. Yeah it does look bigger. And she said the cupboard's good. What time's she coming round tomorrow? And do you know what she did? She went down Wednesday she had to go late because the builder doesn't come very early so she didn't go to to B and Q until the afternoon, and she was going around, or Do-it-all, one of them, she was going around looking around and then as soon as she looked out it was half past five ! She's on her bike! Oh! God! She got no light on her bike! She didn't ride back did she? So she had to ride back on the she rode back on the Oh! On the cycle path. she said there are loads of them on the cycle path without lights on! Oh yeah, you don't bother with lights on the cycle path. I said, well don't do that again! That's really dangerous! She said I was having a lovely time looking all round these things! And she bought things with her erm twenty five pound voucher said I was having a lovely time and I forgot the time! Well it's like it's like Julian, I gotta keep on at him to stop working because, he wants to go early anyway, but he he What time did he go tonight then Yeah. late? I said ,, no I said, what time do you wanna, are you gonna go today? He said well I've gotta leave at five today. So I said, well, we'll have to start packing up at half past four because we got cement mixer to clean and all the Yeah. tools to clean. He still hadn't finished at quarter to five. Where was he going then? Why did he want go to finish He had to go and pick somebody up. Oh. Have I got all the what done? The freezer done? No I haven't got the freezer done yet? Why haven't you got freezer done? Because I haven't got round to doing it yet. It's just an excuse! Get on the phone and phone them up! Right Claire, I will. Your turn now! Go on! You say it as well. What? About the freezer lid She said is the freezer done? it's been going on for Oh yeah! months! Who have you phoned? Erm, something Electrics in Ashley Road and . Get on the phone and phone up Currys and say I've got this model freezer No , just phone up anyone. Anybody! I can't find the model. Well me and I'll No, you don't need to do that, they'll do it ! I told them to phone up but Why phoning up and saying that Well do it then. saying that You don't need a bo , you don't need, you just wanna be friendly and ask people for advice. But don't walk in there We've got a fre for? we got a freezer where the Eight seal is gone, can you help me? Yeah, that's alright. I'll do it tomorrow. Do you know how much of electricity you're losing because you've got no seal on the freezer? Alright aunty Jean! Well! You've gotta li be like it with You're a fine one to talk! What i , what's wrong with me then? Mm? You never do anything. Well no, not what's wrong with me ! What's wrong with that, my ? You never ever do anything you say you're going to do! Well if I had a broken freezer I'd mend it. A and yesterday guess what we found? Something that we've been looking for for months and months! What to do with me? Oh yeah! No, to do with Do with us. do with us in the house. Oh I don't know. Go on. Just think, what have we been looking for? And yo , and who's got the blame? And you've been blaming me! Who's got the blame? Blaming me! Saying I'd lost it! To do with office work. I've wiped my bottom with it! Lu Well are you gonna tell mum what it is then? What is it then? No, go on, guess. To do with office. To do with And I've been getting all the office Oh! blame! Amanda's pa typewriter In the bit. In the car! In the car! Oh! Who on earth put it in the car certainly weren't me. Well she must have done. She's had our car. And i and it says that you've got the wrong ribbon. Ribbon. Yeah, I guessed that didn't I? . Yeah. Yeah. I said that, I it said if they, if that light doesn't Oh! stop flashing yo it is something wrong with the ribbon or erm what was it, I said, he said clutch and ribbon, or just the ribbon? One. A mismatch The ribbon or the lid's not put down it says. properly. Oh well I, well she said, that's the one she's put on before! Mm. Well it didn't do it until We better have a I took it out, so No, it didn't do it until Claire took it out. See, the thing to do is go and buy a Smith's Corona Yeah, I sa Yeah, or a when I go into to Poole, cos I'm gonna go in and get your erm Where do you me , well wha , who sells, Boots. Yeah, they did do I'm not sure. Well Smiths do as well. Smiths , Boots anywhere like that. Yeah, I'll go. How much are they? About five pound. Oh are they? Oh, they're no more? Because when we take, it's best to have one here and then Claire will be taking it away with her when you go. Ha! Wherever you go. Whenever you do go. If I go. If I could be bothered to go! Yes, you see! You're gonna get this attitude now aren't you? I am, I'm gonna have an attitude problem now for the rest of my life! Well they're not very tasty. Look, there's hundreds of Yeah! people get rejected, reject notes from colleges . But not every college they apply to dad! There's a subtle difference! You didn't have, from everyone you applied to! All! Well you only did four! Four! You were supposed to do six and you only did four! In fact, erm I'm not supposed to do any number! Oh I thought you were supposed to do six. You do what you like! Oh I thought you did six. What was that boy I had working for me, I've forgotten his name? ? Duncan. Er ,, Duncan told me Tt! that he had loads of rejects. Well he would do if he didn't have marks. Oh! But You're not gonna stop doing your biology are you? No. Nor your maths. I'm not stopping doing maths, no way! I'm good at maths. But you just gotta keep on and on haven't you? Mm. Yes, but what do I do now? It's a bit disheartening isn't it, really? Well It's a bit down! it's disheartening , it's disheartening but do exactly what Amanda says, wait until September when all the colleges are in the paper, the colleges have got to be filled up, they get budgets and they got to fill them up, the colleges up with I'm not gonna do sport. pupils. You're not Students. gonna do sports? What are you gonna do then? Dunno. Do something else. Do something else. Well she can't do speech therapy cos she needs I'm not qualif , qualified in it? What do you need ,chemi Chemistry A level. Chemistry in A level. You can't do that. Do, do speech therapy? Yeah. What about physiotherapy to have to No. The , they'll be thousands of applicants to do physiotherapy this year because it's the in thing Oh is it? to do. Oh! I was listening to a programme on the radio about the speech and erm it said that all languages have got forty films or something or other. Why don't you do something with your deaf, your sign language again? Oh well, you do, I mean it's all very well saying Well no! Tt! ooh that'll be nice! But there's nothing going, a degree though is there? You don't wanna do the leisure management erm Dunno. You know this course you're taking in June Yeah. what does that do for you? Gives you an R S A. And what does that It's Royal Society of Arts. Like So you can an R S A in typing. yeah, so you But a recognised can do something Yeah. with that? But then you'd have to become self employed and teach aerobics. And how many aerobic teachers are there And there's loads of them doing that. in Dors Yeah. Dorset? Hundreds! Yeah. Well, would you do it You'd just be another one. ? Hundreds! There's hundreds ! For my self-esteem! But not to use it then? Oh yeah! Yeah. Yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah! Wasn't there a course on dance movement or something? Yeah. But you have to give a practical performance. Yeah. You could be dance ! What? I would go on a course which is gonna give you the qualifications that are gonna pay you a good sa salary. I'm gonna do what dad said. You wanna gonna go on a course where everybody's at the beginning. Yeah. Nobody knows any more than the next person. You wanna go to courses Yeah. here? Well the Well like Mand most of them I mean, alright Mand was most of them interested in English nobody,sh didn't know any more than the girl next door did she? And they're all in the same position. Well, we all know the basics in English. No, no, if you go, if you went on a philosophy you wanted to take a degree in English and philosophy you don't know any more o than the next person about No. philosophy do you? No. Gotta be a certain level, O sev , A So you're all starting at the same level standard. you all start at exactly the same level whereas where Claire went I mean, it's ridiculous to say you should be county standard sports! I said Nick erm What did she say there? she says erm, um, she's gonna ring me tonight. Oh! She said erm, how did you get on? Oh, not very well at all! And she said erm oh I'll have another cup please, thank you. She said that, I said they said, you had to be Do you want more? at county level, I said, I'm sorry, county what? So erm Oh that pleased her did it? How many cups have you had? Well I haven't long got up Oh! have I? I don't think this teapot holds as much Well it doesn't. as you think it does It doesn't does it? I'll got and put the kettle on. What does everybody want then? Nothing. That's enough Claire. Want anything mum? That's enough tea. Yeah, well I'm having something to eat cos that was hardly anything Oh. what I had . Please I thought you said you wanted some ice-cream? Yeah, but I don't expect . I What do you want? I don't know. I want Amanda agrees with this as well that Claire goes o What do you want mum? I don't think I want anything else, no. er goes on a course Pineapple? Yes alright, yeah. and goes on a course where everybody starts Yes, at the same time and that's it. Which is what most courses aren't they? Yeah, but she's a bit despondent now isn't she, really? Amanda said I've got to sto , she's not to stop going to night school. I said, well you co , if Claire wants to stop nothing'll make us go will it? I don't know. When we went to that the interview yesterday it was ever so funny because we're all sat in a row and this girl next door to me was from Cornwall, and this other girl said, where are you from? And she says, from Cornwall. She said, do you know Sarah so and so? She didn't! Did she? She did! And she was serious! And we went Yeah. How big does she think Cornwall Well she might , she might be a county standard athlete Yeah! but she's thick! No brain! How big does she think Actually, I thought It's like on Delboy last night,i he he said er he's he's in hospital with a nurse watching him all day and the thick one at the bar, did you see it? The thick one at the bar said cor! Fancy having someone staring at you all day! Erm what was I gonna say? I thought she's just the type of person which everybody would avoid to speak to, this girl! You know, the one that gets on your nerves! Not very nice! Well Well she was! Not worth beating around the bush is there? Well are there single rooms there or Yeah! they're single, the accommodation is single then is it? Yes it is. Well you can stay on with your boyfriend if you want to! Well, if they got, they got men and women in the same dormitory! With the same showers ! They share the same rooms do they? Yeah, they got the me , men and women in the same Course they have pools with a girl! Yeah, but I mean what At ! yeah, but why do you think, what do you think the reason for that is then? Well No,we why do you think, what we er we er, if if you said if you were looking round a place an , and and a mother said, I'm surprised that you haven't segregated the men from the women in the dorm. Well they'd get in there anyway! No but wha , why, what do you think I don't know why! well she said because it's good security for the, for the girls. Oh! Because this Well some of them are aren't they? No, no! It's this, er the campus is very exposed to They get down and then people walking in Yeah. and because it's an open college and erm you know how nurses Look what happened at erm you know what nurses' accommodation the camp is always had weirdos look at the erm looking into windows and whatnot! accommodation at Manda's, they had a chap go in there a rape one of the girls in there didn't they? They'll be weirdos looking into windows there and they'll looking a big beefy rugby player! Well that's Paul at Cambridge had erm, a girl on the same floor as him. Yeah, but he said you share a bathroom and Yeah, and the showers. and the rooms Really? you know, there's a, a chap in that room there in the next room Yeah, that's what Paul had in Cambridge. Yeah. But I, I wa , I must admit, I was surprised! He shared a kitchen there though Yeah. In the paper the other day they had Well they must see wo , men and women in the same stu students at Oxford University were parading, were demonstrating that Mm! they wanted Gonna have a bit more of that. men excluded from wo , some part or other because it was causing so many problems. Oh! Mm! I think it's erm, I think it's good, yeah? And that they they but and they were, felt under a a lot of the pressure Oh don't let me finish dad, you know! Yeah. Go on. Erm but their bathrooms and their showers there's three showers and a bath and you share that with the bloke next door! I think that's a bit and toilets, you share the toilets as well. Yeah. No I dunno about the toilet. No I I don't think I'd like to share a bathroom No, I was surprised but and a toilet with them. I must admit, I was I surprised. I would have thought they should have the girls cloakroom and a gents cloakroom separately. A cloakroom? Well bathroom. Bath, well they are cloakrooms! Bathrooms. a and then it's the finding things! Yeah! And I, all the I don't care, I take ages! I mean I'm Mm. still looking for a table for the hall. Yeah. I know when I see it. Yeah. I'm not , I don't want it until I can see it. You know Yeah. I think I've I er Sandy came yesterday and Mm. she's just bought an oak table and chairs for one thousand Ah ah! three hundred I think. Well that's incredible! But she's got a nice house and I think if you, if you do want a lot Yes, but how can she afford it? They're still I don't know. Sh she wants to put it there so erm Gosh! Well, I suppose ours is worth some, I don't know I take it Yeah, but you did yours gradually, I mean she wants everything well I only should, yeah all at once doesn't Yeah. she? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and then then she always doing like that, I don't know what she does! She's always Yeah I know. going away, going, she wants to buy that don't she? Yeah. But she God! erm said it's oak I think she said. Well I bet it's nice! Yeah. I don't know what, I said what I bet it's nice! date is it? She didn't Mm. know what date it were. No I'll , I'll bet it's lovely! Because our table's Victorian. I don't I know. know what our chairs are but But your, your suite does ! Our cha , our chairs are not Victorian, they're older than Victorian. They're very nice! , I don't know what er They're very nice Margaret! I mean, it it what er such quality doesn't it? I don't know what the chairs are, they're Mm. something or the other, I don't know. It's such quality and there's no doubt about, it's nice to have nice things but the trouble with them is she wants everything doesn't she? Mm mm. Mm. Well there you are. Is that too There we are. strong? No, that's better. Right. I left them some tea bags there today. Did you? Well when I get Ooh I've painted the door today. I volunteered it so Tetley do freeze dried tea or something. Oh you wanna try that. Yeah. Mm! They're always talking about it aren't Yeah. they? But, I expect you've got one in your door anyway. Yeah , on magazines, something like that. I never have these offers down there! You know you, you sometimes have things like that? Yeah. Oh don't they go up that way then? No. Can't do. Well they should, shouldn't they? Mm! I never get sent any, yeah. Well I haven't had anything for ages. That's the No. first thing I've had for a long time is er that. But, yeah. I don't know. But I went down er yesterday, and I got, ooh I might get, they didn't have, do you know I was gonna buy a actually Oh yeah! they're not getting their new stock in. Oh! I don't mind, I get it cheap enough Yeah. from Argos. Mm. But erm, so why not, what am I gonna spend it on? So I bought Did you have to spend it by a certain time or I've still got five pounds left. I Oh! have to do by the twenty eighth of February so You better get a move on! Yeah I know. Well I thought well I'll, just think about what I want with the last five pounds. Mm. So I bought a tin, a five litre of white silk emulsion, brilliant white emulsion, erm a two litre drum, a thing of white spirit a pack of erm wool, steel wool, cos I'm taking off the varnish off the doors, they're coming up quite nicely! So how's it all going? Mm mm. Erm yes,job and I thought if I get steel wool Mm. it'll probably needs, do it Mm. quicker. Erm get that there. And what else did I get? Ooh! Battery for radio, it's just gone, cos they Oh! er they sell batteries in there, so I got a battery. And two plugs thirteen amp Aha. ah ah a tin o , er a thing of Superglue, I've always wanted some Superglue. Oh yes ! And you're gonna come out and find yourself stuck to the wall! So I, I bought some Superglue. I'm not gonna use it really, I just want some Imagine ! Superglue! And erm You'll be going round glueing everything now ! Yeah. Ooh! And a tin of, ah,o a a small tin of erm of brilliant white gloss cos I want to do the gates outside, you know that fence outside. Erm and I'm having that delivered. So I'm having the steel wool, the emulsion, the, I thought cheeky monkey! Even though Yeah. I didn't know about, spent nine pounds to deliver it for me! I come on the bike and I can't have it. Mm. Mm! Er, so the steel wo , well that's Mm. that's only gone for me. I'm having that delivered but the little items I bought myself. Mm. And then I thought, now what am I gonna get for my five pounds? I thought course it'll be, by this time it's getting dark! Mm. I didn't go until why didn't I go? You wasn't there? Now what happened? I was a bit annoyed actually cos I even had to wait for him Mm mm. in the mornings! And I can't think what it was. I don't think he he had to go out or something happened, and I thought, oh blow this for being Ah oh! with cowboys! Anyway, I had an early lunch and I went out, but of course I'd forgotten Yeah. it gets dark! It's dark. And I looked out and I was having a lovely little wander round and I thought oh God! And I was like a young by the time I got home. Haven't got lights on your bike! Oh well that's alright ended up on the cycle path, you know. But I thought blimey! But I knew, it makes me laugh because when Joe used to go to these do-it-yourself places I used to say, oh come on Joey! I'm as bad as he is now! I'm looking at the all the tools, I thought ooh that sander's quite nice! I thought, fifty five pounds, oh that's too dear I'll Ha! do it by hand. And I was looking at the drills, and then I was looking at all the garden stuff, and and I thought well, start by the, and I thought I'm doing a Joey! Yeah ! Looking at all the paints I'm I bet gonna get ! And I thought, oh poor Joey I wish he was back he could wander rou , if only Joey had let me do more Yeah. He didn't let you do enough did No. he? No. I could be really interested! Yeah. I find I'm interested in it Yeah. Marg. Yeah, but he wanted you for slave work! Yes! Didn't he? You see how anything could Yeah. and as for painting, he would no more let me touch a painting brush! No. And,a all these things I thought were so difficult! Blimey Marg! Mm! I mean, painting the ceilings Mm. And I,an and quite honestly you don't, I thought ooh that's gonna drip everywhere! I doesn't! No. The Yes. one I got, what else did I get? Ooh no, I was gonna get some of that erm Ronseal stuff, not the creosote Mm. and I thought oh the creosote's good! Mm. I'll get that creosote . Mm. Have you done your shelf? No, not time. I haven't had time. No. No. No. And you see, when men move out there Marg, I find out Oh it's difficult! it's difficult No I don't like to people in the house yo you don't know what to do do you? Whe No. wherever you are, I mean today when I was trying to get ready to go wherever I was there were ladders there, or there was Yeah. this there, or they were there Yeah. and I try to keep out of the way. Well you should come round here, I told you. Well I know, it's You should have come round here, I mean And we've still got to collect all the Yeah. stuff up Marg. Yeah. But I might, I haven't bothered about the food so much, I thought cos once I mean I used to go behind the, and I thought I'm having my sa lunch time and I'm going to enjoy it and I am not going to sit in corners! Yeah. So I either have it in the kitchen or I go and I say to them do you want a cup of tea? I'm going to have my lunch now. Yeah. And I thought, blow it! I'm Yeah. not gonna hide and Yeah. juggle my lunch! Well I don't think they expect you to anyway. Course they don't. It's in Yeah. you. Yeah. It is. I don't like it when er cos I've got the boiler man coming on Tuesday And to take that out. Yeah. And he won't be here five minutes. No. I don't, you know, you can't call your house your own. No. But you see once I get this over Marg, the worst'll be over. Mm. I've had everything done. Now when it's done You got your en suite to do. Ah, yeah! But that'll mostly be outside. Yeah. The only thing I'll have Yeah. them in for that is when they cut the door open. When they put that in. Yeah. Now that's the only time I shall have that. How many years , it's only three isn't it before you have to have planning Yeah. permission again. Oh! I can build a I've only been there, I haven't been there three years. Oh no. Two is it? Coming up to two. Two. Anyway, as I say, you must be careful because it will run out. Yeah. But I definitely going, if it's re , if erm, I want Derek to have a look at it, see Mm. what he thinks Mm. about it Mm. and if he thinks the work's alright Yeah. then I'll Yeah. erm get him to do Yeah. that if the price is, price is right. Yeah. Do think it will be alright if he did this or not? I think it would don't you? And I think if we go and have something in down by the sea and see what we've got there I think it'll be alright. Er, probably Paul's had it for the night. Did i , did you Yes. did he say he show you any work that he's done or anything? Who? Mr ? Yeah, he did say you could see some of it No. you know, I mean it No. wouldn't er No. You see, but he didn't have a Federation of Buil , Master Builders, but whether, I mean this chap must have quite a few, he didn't say it, but No. er Mm. he's a bit, they're a bit lucky with their erm Yeah. Mind , You see th builders are cos I mean Are they? at times I I, er, yeah they're awful! Oh! But the front I mean Yeah. you know I like to keep my front Yeah. the muck that, I just don't look. Yeah. But it's muck and the wood they leave there, the tools they leave at night! What when they go home? And all the wood! And I think Oh! I I can't bear to look at it Yeah. I just co close my eyes at it Yeah. you know. And before they come in the mornings I tidy up, I, well after they've gone at night Mm. too, but I make sure that the hall's dusted and Mm. it's all sort of swept Mm. nicely, and then in two minutes flat Mm. it's Yeah. well I know they can't help that No. but I still think they could be, I mean, he doesn't sort of strip out the bathroom every time or anything like that. Sweep into a corner or something No. like this, you know. No, yeah. But, mind, Mr isn't. No. Mr would Derek said, and he's there on his own? Yeah. And he said the, the electrician's good. What co er He didn't used to leave any mess. No. No mess! No. And Paul whatever he did, it was all tidied up. Yeah. See tha ,i if this chap's got a fault, it's that he's a bit of mucky worker. Mm mm. Mm. But lots of er, builders are I think. Yeah. Derek always clears up when he goes Yeah. and when he, he doesn't leave it untidy, he cleans. But then, you see, I think to myself sometimes, oh you're being too fussy! You see, now nothing works again with Joey Joey never ever left any muck. I say, if it was midnight Joey went round with that, I didn't even have to. No. Joe went round with that hoover and it was all clean Yeah. and tidy. Perfectly Mm. left! Yeah. See I've been spoilt really Yeah. Marg. You won't get that with workmen No. I can say! Been spoilt. No you're right. I realise this see,sh No. I'm basing it all on past experience. Yeah. You see when we had those men in Chesham and Joey he did his nut when we Oh yeah. went up to our bedroom while we're having an en suite done and the plumber had left all, all along ply boards. He nearly went mad! Yeah. Yeah but Joey was over the top if anything wasn't he? Yeah I know that. That's the trouble. I know. Yeah. He was over the top with some of it. So er But the trouble is he's got me into the way of thinking Yeah. you know. Yeah. See Derek's not that fussy. Mm. Joey was. He would he was i , he always is and I know that. Mm mm. Mm mm. I know that. Yeah. But once you've seen it, you know, and er Mm. but having said he, having said all this though Marg I know I'm going to be pleased with it. Yeah. I know I am. Yeah. What time do they work till? Half past five. Oh do they? Oh! He'd gone when I got home from Texas, about quarter to six and they'd gone ! Well you were on your bike! I hadn't reali Oh mind, it was quite light, it wasn't and I saddled on the path and I didn't, I don't take chances. But, it wasn't really dark. Yeah, that's right. Policeman come up to you. Well they were screaming, and I thought you stupid ! But it's a funny thing how many cyclists go up along that path Yeah, oh yeah without without lights! Oh yeah! But it wasn't all that dark. No. Well it wasn't dark. Expect lots of them do, but Yeah. erm if you had to go on the road it would have been different. Well I wouldn't go on the road, that's all. No , erm There I am laughing to myself, I thought you stu , and I was lost, you know! Ooh then I went to the B and Q to see if I could get a blind to match, but I spent , so I Yeah. I'll have to go into Poole Mm. and take my leaflets out Mm. with me and see if I can something Mm. that'll match. I don't Yeah. want to spoil it now. No. No. Must not No. spoil it. I don't know where there's a where is there erm Oh there's two or three! Are there? There's erm well that shop on the left hand, right hand side as you go down, they sell curtains and they're a bit thin Oh yeah! but they've got Yeah. come quite nice ones in there. Oh have they? Yeah. Yeah. Only I've got to erm Ashley Road, I mean, I can go Yeah. into all those places Yeah. in Ashley Road, I'll get something. Yeah. But I'm not going to spoil it, I want to get something which will, ooh! And when I went into Do-it-all they had a wallpaper and bed linen, and it was just what I wanted! It had, but they don't damn well do blinds! Tt! Oh no! Well it would have been easier but I would have, I wouldn't find Yeah. it was,ju exactly the colour I wanted! Ah! Ah! Ah! Ah! And the wallpaper, I looked at the wallpaper I thought, God if I can get a blind like that! They don't Mm. blooming well do them! What a shame! Oh I was thinking the colour of it! Yeah. I know sa so if you get mine what, I told you about the blind as they go, don't pull them up when they're wet. No. No. Well, I'm hoping that er erm, the extractor fan, but under the shower, said Yeah. I can't be bothered any more! No. so, that will take all the afternoon Mm mm mm. and then I Mm. and that's, that's alright. So I, I will get a bit. But you see we've had U er P V C before. I didn't have any, oh no, I didn't have in the bathroom at all cos But the other of mine had Mm. U P V C ones and erm but you see, in the kitchen they don't go with Yeah. you see. Er but erm actually, I I, in erm erm sorry, er, but of course that was a bathroom, but we didn't have a blind up. Did we have a blind up? No. I didn't put a blind up there cos we were so far away I don't like them looking at your window Mm. I don't think we used to have a blind up there. Oh! I don't remember Ooh! it. We had a blind in the bathroom, that was a U, er P V C one. That was nice your blind in there. Well you see erm what do you call it? Some M F I and Clayton Mills used to do the P V C ones, but they don't seem to do them now. No, I think they've stopped doing it now, I dunno. It's a shame because everybody, what? Definitely worth it. Because bathrooms you need something don't you? Yeah. That you can wipe off really. Yeah! And the one in the kitchen outside the cupboard used to only, had to wipe that over. And, I thought it was lovely pattern on there! Mm! The green with the ferns Yeah. on it. Yeah. And it was lovely! But Couple of weeks? Oh! Then it'll be over? There won't be any more work? Mm mm. Or there won't be only, might be more at Mm. Oh that's good then. Perhaps Sophie will be back soon. Sarah hasn't been in has she? Ah? Not gonna come is she? Well phone her up. Well I didn't realise she had another job, I thought she was still looking. That, those lettuces, those iceberg lettuces are seventy eight P! I ain't paying that! Well it's cheaper than Tescos. What were they in Tescos? What were they? Ninety four! Yeah , well I'm not really paying that! I'm not paying that for, yet I feel they're better. See you haven't got any taste. Can possibly do Don't matter . . That don't matter does it. We do have then? Mm. They're like refreshing. Are they? How come I've got a yoghurt left then? We've all got one? Oh we did it right then? We di , no I did it right. You can't count! What? The petrol. What for? Oh! I don't know. Mind you, it looks quite strange doesn't it? Depends though, I mean you might be going to work. She's asked me how I got on. Oh. Normally I have a little conflab do you? What? Did you smell it? Can you smell it? Yeah. So did Ian going to yo erm something men? Eh? And I said it was man and, what was it? J F K? Yeah. Did he go and see it? Mm. I dunno. I think it's a different one. Someone , someone told me it's on for three and a half hours! That was me! Oh was it? When did you tell me that? Last night. No, I knew before then. I was in a car with Amanda. You must be stupid coming out my her hat on! Just a scratch. Where's it scratched? It is actually leaking water, mum. Believe it or not! I know it, I looked in there and that was cos they've gotta stay here now haven't they? Oh I, I dunno but I don't wanna like that dear, I want the squat time. The ordinary type. Will you be working late tonight?? Dunno. Ten o'clock? How late? Ten o'clock. You got something to eat before we go out! Mum, I said, I said what are you working? I can feel it? I suggest you peel a Oh I'm not ! Cheen a pink!peel and peach and lose a friend. I haven't got any friends so that's alright then innit? My only friend's my cat! Peel us a said it's something about if you peel a pinch, peach you lose a friend. What's this pinch business ! And if you keep the peel on a pear you lo , it's an enemy or something. That's what she said the other day. She talks rubbish ! No she doesn't, it's things that she's known for years. All the sayings. Oh is it horrible? Don't eat it then love. I thought perhaps it's over-ripe, is it? Yeah. Urgh! Urgh! Brurgh brurgh urgh urgh! Er, try that one. No thanks. Yeah but just try that one cos I told you that No th thanks , no. Oh! Oh there's a What a shame. Oh that is nothing new that! Yeah, but tho , that one's gotta be cut open! No I won't eat it. Cut that one open. Oh! It's the same. There's half a banana there. Wow! Thanks! Or there's a chocolate Hob Nob there. How many calories are there in one of them? Oh! You're gonna eat them please! Oh, only a hundred and thirty four. That's not bad is it? I think I'll have five of them then! They didn't have any Kit-Kats. I like that it's the smell of them! The smell! Urgh! Ah! Oh look he's done it wrong! Can't you eat eclair ones? Yeah. Oh! Sorry! Disgusting! Well I just picked, I didn't have my glasses on. I was looking for Kit-Kat but they didn't have any. All the ones are in here? ? Mm. Dad's not going, I know so , cos he's going to Holland the weekend after. Mm. That's eight, cos when is it the sixteenth oh it's the twenty first! Ah it must be Father's Day then. Cos it's usually on Father's Day isn't it? Mm. I know. How many calories is that Claire? About hundred and fourteen. A hundred and eleven. Oh is that lower than this Oh! then? No. What's yours? Your peach one? Hundred and fifty. Hum! Yeah but what, erm, is is the them ones I brought, they're only forty five aren't they? Oh well, perhaps this is dried and horrible! We could make, we could put it in something couldn't we? In the bin? No! We could make a peach flan or something. I bought some cooking apples do you want erm apple crumble this weekend? Mm mm! You don't like apple pie do you? What's No. that recipe, the vegetarian one now? Dunno. Manda's got it. Cos Paul said you brought it home didn't you? No. It was the last one. Oh! Has she tried it then? I don't think so. Well has she tried any of those recipes she took home? Dunno. Oh! Did you actually speak to her? Dunno. Cat got your tongue? No. Yes well! I love toast with erm Ba! Mm mm! A bit, tastes sort of erm you know that drink dad brought at Christmas? Which Those one? those cakes? Yeah. That's what it tastes of isn't it? Mm mm! A scented sort of taste. Oh no! Not buying peaches any more at . What a waste of money! Do you think any of them are bad Claire? I know dad, dad put that little fox or something, has he been putting stuff out for the Yeah. He hasn't? What did he put out there? And he goes fo , down there you know. If he touches fox mounds they'll be trouble! Well that's a messy int doing that. Those tha , twins were alright the other day weren't they? Mm. Can you pass my please. I owe you twenty five P. You give me Alright. seventy P. I've got a tenner I think. It is Tracey. Ooh God! Dave and Tracey. Dunno why Dave has to go ! They went to the Isle of Wight. Did I tell you they were going to this hotel last week. No. And last Saturday I was speaking to her and Gary and the hotel phoned up and said pipes had burst. Ooh! Yeah. So I said so yo , is your mum and dad coming down from Bristol this weekend? She said no. My friends coming down. And I said well did you manage to do anything last Saturday? She said we went to the Isle of Wight. How exciting! Mm! Well if you're working hard all day long Claire. Don't know when she does any work, do you? She's in the shop all the time! Don't eat an apple will you ? Is that one that the chap sends then? ? Mm. No. I got the ? No, I thought he was ? Oh! They're all getting married in turn. You do , oh is there? Mm. Mm. What are they like then? Eh? What are they like? Oh We haven't got a tart left have we? A tart? A ta-ta! Tart. Got lemon curd there. Don't know, have a look. I don't think so. Well I haven't given any to dad. Erm dunno. Who made you love me . The way that you feel . No? Ah! must be empty the cupboard was bare! You haven't, have you eaten much? Cor! I've not eaten much but chocolate! Chocolate? One day da da da da da . I'll come next week. You're meant to have this. Yeah, you say that you were waiting a year! No I mean it. Aha! Did Amanda have any food or anything for you when you got there? Yeah she did. Oh yeah? Mm. She had Twix. Oh! Bet that was nice. I eat the Twix and dad had a piece of toast. Then I had a piece of toast. Yeah. Then we went off to . Why were you late? Because we got lost. Oh! So you didn't take those photographs. Bet you stopped didn't you? The bloke that I was sat next didn't take any either. Oh didn't he? Why not? We forgot. Oh. Why do they need them? I don't know. Perhaps they're starting up a fountain. Mm mm, mm mm. I'll have to get your bike sorted out then. Yeah , I must get it done. Quite, actually enjoying myself up there! Mm! Yeah you had a great time! Except you shouldn't have been on the pavement. It's hard going these things on your own. Mm. Yeah. Well if unfortunately you don't go where you'll have Manda to join, you know, if you want to, if there's things you wanna go to. Mm. That's if she gets part-time here. How she's gonna do another twenty thousand words before June? She's only done ten since September! You know what you're diving into do you? Mm mm. Mhm mhm mhm. There's an apple there if you want one love. No I've had one this morning thanks. Where from? Here. Oh did you take one? Mm. Oh dear . I said to aunty Jean, you won't be having that chap round to do your en suite will you? She thought, I'll have him to do the building but not the rest of it. One more. Take them away mum! Do want a half of that? No, just take them away! Take them away. Alright then. If you can't,if you can't get home if you have to go the that play, give me ring. I'm sure has. Where are the tennis girls gonna sleep then? With them. Oh yes! Has she still got them ? She had them years ago. No, nothing. Oh that's alright. Not, he's not actually an architect though is he? Who? Phillip. No. What, what's, what's he called then? I suppose he's just a technician. Oh is that they call it. Mm. Shame! He's not gonna, he don't get any better either do you? No. No. Not for a while yet. Mm? Not for a while yet. No? Where shall I put these? In, in I'll just put them in there. Anywhere I can't reach them. Well I'll just put them in there. Oh! Looks quite interesting that book! Oh yeah. Hello! Is it? Yeah it was quite good. Where did it come from? I don't know. Oh! Did you have to pay for it or what? Or was it to do I don't think so with the erm Well it's not the Moultons Not the Moultons No. It's not to do with the Yeah. erm oh what's the other one dad had? These flowers have lasted me a long time cos Ruth gave them to me on my birthday last month. Yeah. Give it all They're ever so pretty! baby. Don't think I'll go in that . vegetable shop that sells those flowers cos they're too expensive next to Dave's. I've never seen Dave's flowers. Oh he's got some quite nice ones. I'm gonna get some and take some down to grandma's grave so I fe , I feel really guilty we've not been there since Christmas eve! Stay with me! Was it Christmas eve we went? Me ee ee! Stay with me ! Mind, I don't I think I'm gonna speak to dad , since he went there last year. And I hope and pray that you wake one day in Not that two rights, not right, two wrongs make a right. your own world . I said to dad we should have gone on Tues , Wednesday. Gone where? To nan's grave. Yeah. What did dad say, no? No, he said yes. Oh! But it was so late when we were driving back Yeah. It was dark when we, went past Oh. there. It was about what was it, half past five, six half past six? I bet nobody's been there at all. Unless Michael put some, a holly wreath on at Christmas, he may have done. Stay with me ee ee! You better hope and pray I would have thought aunty Cath would have phoned Wednesday night when you came back from Cargill that you in your own world . Come on then! Look! Mum! Is that, is that sign on that car is that from a television programme? I don't know. Smeg head! Tt! Smeg head ! Well what's it mean? It's like a smeggy man! Just describe the . No it's not, it's erm It's . Yeah. That's young people for you. Stay That's a lot, it was silly that programme last with me ee ee ! night! What programme? That programme it came from. Red Dwarf or whatever, yeah? Yeah. It is quite, quite stupid! Dad started telling me, Vic Reeves on now I notice. Ah! That's cos you like it. Yeah! Not, cos I don't like it. I went out the room! Well why was he watching it then? Don't know. And smirking rather a lot. Yes, but pretends he's not watching and he looks over the top of his paper. And grins! Oh it's stupid! I mean if anybody else just got up on the stage like he does and kicks his leg, kick like their leg like er like that they'd boo him off! It's quite funny though when he kicks his legs and he went he goes ooh wah! What's funny about it? Well that's funny! You're not expecting him to do that. Well you didn't think it was funny when we went to see Yeah, but I , I only think that's probably cos there was eighty million, trillion, thousand A young people! Amanda laughed at them didn't Oh! she? She did, well, there was a quite a few funny bits in it. And when they were doing that male modele thing, when, when they were going and God is nowhere! What did he do that wig on his head for? Cos he was judge, whatever his name is. Judge who? Pickles? No, I've forgotten what Oh. his real name is now. Judge who? And they say erm he says, spinning the wheel of justice. Oh. Swing, swing, swing the wheel of Has that been on before ? justice! He has twice the to fly ! What was that in there? You're a little devil you are! Where did that come from? Oh your ! What? That thing. Look. Oh! No you gotta butter it again now. Tt! Mum, I am twenty one believe it or not! I'm, I'm going grey. How, how can you call that talent when he's just, does that with his leg and then kicks It's not talent really is it? his foot around? What's talent in that? Well he thought of it didn't he? What time is tonight? Half past eight? If I go Well eight o'clock it starts. But we'll go out, oh look at that little bird! He's gonna go down on those nuts now. And you will when you wake one day And we'll go out and pick up aunty Jean about twenty to eight. in your own world . Oh I don't know if it'll be very good, but it , what's it called? Sex and No sex or something? I don't think dad'll like it, I don't know why he's going. Seen him Well you didn't like the last one we went to did you? That's probably because I'm being stared at by some bloody bla ginger haired git in the back row! Stand by me ee ee Well why couldn't you say ee ee ! It's probably because I was getting looked at by erm a ginger haired boy Git in the back row! A git! You'd better hope and pray that you will make it one day back to your own world . Dad said erm that play was ever so awful! Ooh! Ah! There you are. Yeah. When I asked him, he said, oh it was nothing different. Caught up in your wishing well your hopes inside Well she never said if she did she? it, take your love When's she ? December I think. No she's going in December. . That's if se that girl wanted to go. Come on let's just . Well there's tre , oh they've got signs outside or not? I dunno. ,da is it golf or I mean the taxi driver and his wife Is that one going? Mm. They didn't stay there long did they? live round here anyway isn't it? Yeah, erm, yeah. They might have or Perhaps they're in financial difficulty. Mm. Well it could be. We , what has she done? I thought smelt then. I thought erm Urgh! Claire! you'd be all pooey! Take him off your clothes! He doesn't. haven't you? Urgh! I took her outside this morning and she is the typical scaredy cat she is! Oh! But she's The the lovely she is! that's right when that big ginger tom was there and I, you should have seen her! She's peeping round the corner of the stones, that step down there! Well she's frightened! Well she's su such a scaredy cat! When you're a mummy like that are you? I think she needs erm No! Kitty, kitty, kitty,! fleeing er Claire because she keeps scratching all the time. Claire. Right. You got the flea powder? Yeah. Flea powder out! Oh! Well , Caught up in a wishing well And she don't like Whiskas! That's the most expensive cat food! your hopes inside it . I know. She got cat food! Come on then! Oh she don't know whether to come and have food or go upstairs with you. I've lost my .. I wish I could get this horrible pest that's doing my ironing! Look! . There's all like little black things! Claire. Mhm. Oh . Look at this! Look! Two colours! Well look at it! It's not a different plant is it? Well I think it must be. Well it's bound to be isn't it? Yeah, looks like it doesn't it? Yeah, but I know he didn't mean to do that. No. A yellow and a pink one up in the same plant. little . That's their colour. Oh baby. I'll have to get something to erm get rid of it, the black spider things , I don't know what they are. I'm taking my car back. Oh are you? Well take mine cos I don't want it. No, it's alright. I don't, I'm not using it. I'm No. just waiting for aunty Jean. I'll see you later then. Alright then. Bye! I'll give you a ring. So don't be too late No. because erm Ooh, I'll give you a ring if I'm gonna be in for tea. You'll give me a ring if you're gonna be in for tea? Yeah. Yep. Oh I'm alright I suppose. Yeah? How's Pam, alright? Fed up? Yeah, fed up. Can't blame her really can you? No. No. It's a bit annoying. I think they should have tried to the bathroom myself. Yeah, but they Should have done they're gonna stop soon now they've got a house. Are they? Yeah. Then they do the bathroom and toilet they'll I didn't know why they haven't done it before. Why have they Well it's it's, it's difficult. Why is it difficult? Cos it's money involved. Well it takes all th , no it's all tied in with the plumbing you see, it's there and everything. Yeah, well I think they could have done it a bit quicker don't you? I think they could have done. I think er, and Pam says there's a sort of post sticking up in the ceiling or something? Yeah, well she doesn't really understand it. I think Derek says he's sa , it's a, it's a erm tt, temporary thing. But she says she's made a Ah that's right. hole in this, this the, they've put it in Yeah, but it's all gonna be inside it, it's gonna be boxed in. Well she said she don't want it going up the middle there. There ain't much choice really! Why not? Well because the drains run right underneath the house there you see. The drains run right under the house. But did she know that before? Yeah. It's on Well the plans to that to go on Oh right. the inside. Oh! You'd think they'd like that. It's not gonna be right in the middle of the bathroom or anything like that, it's more No. for show. Oh. Well I think, I would have thought they could have done it a bit quicker, the bathroom, if they wanted to. And it's a bit difficult for her isn't it? Especially Yeah. with your mother. Yeah that's right. It's a bit difficult I think. Oh it is difficult. Yeah. Anyway, that should, should have the bathroom in operation. Are they gonna do it? Yeah. Are they, what are they going to have today, plasterers? No. No, Monday they're coming aren't they? Yeah. They were supposed to be here last week. And they got the order of . But they, they couldn't have I was done anything cos, you know, it weren't ready. Oh! Weren't ready. Well they're a bit over the, their stated time aren't they? Stipulated Yes. I don't, er well You won't have to pay them anything soon,cos you wo you keep knocking it off you won't have to pay anybody will you ? I know. Yeah, I mean that's six blokes there working there and they're falling over theirselves really, in that Yeah. Too space. many. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well then Pam made me laugh cos the tiler he, she said he's go up on the roof and he's there for hours ! Mm. Sort of, and then once he comes down he's hardly done anything has he? No. Just sits up there He's made a good job of it though. Has he? Yeah. You can see it from the bottom of our garden Yeah. you know, you can see your new roof coming out . Yeah he's made, he's made a very good job Has he? of it! Oh! That's alright then. Yeah. Suppose it's a bit, I should think I think last night she was absolutely fed up Pam was! Yeah she was. Take it out on me! I said no good you moaning at me er I can't do anything about it! No, but you're just you're handy aren't you ? Yeah that's right! She's gotta have a go at something hasn't she? Yeah! Yeah. I gotta have all of it! There's no, oh the buck stops here and I can't pass it any further ! Yeah. I but don't forget she's got your mother as well and I think you can't Yes I know. you can't be normal can you really No. when erm No. erm I couldn't have looked after my mum. I mean, I did it for four months and then I couldn't do any more, I just think I mean, I know Amanda and Claire were a lot younger then and I think it's difficult when they are they're younger. But I mean, she's a dear old soul but I haven't got her round me all the time. And I think i it's her not being able to hear you as well, it's awful isn't it? That's hard work innit? It is hard work isn't it? Yeah that's right. And Cla , Claire was laughing at me yesterday, she said, you don't have to shout at her! I said, well if I don't talk loudly she doesn't hear what you're saying. I don't know whether it's deafness or whether it doesn't register that's what I mean, you see. I sometimes go, wurgh urgh urgh urgh! And she says what? And then I say it properly and she's got it then you see? Has she? Yeah. Yes. She I think you can see on her face though sometimes John, that she hasn't understood Yeah. what you've said. Yeah that's right. It sort of registers on her face. But then I think if you get one side of her she hears you better. Maybe, yeah well perhaps we've gotta get a hearing aid or something. I dunno. But she says that she's years ago she used to put an onion in her ear or something. When she's Yeah, that's right. Cos she reckoned that cured it. She hasn't still got it in her ear has she? Hasn't got it No , you know whe , when she put an onion, you know when yo , the centre, core of it Yeah. and she used to She says it's stuck. plug it in like an earphone. Yeah. Oh what's that supposed clears the catarrh. Does it? Yeah. Truly? Or is just a I'm sure it works, I'm pretty sure that works. Are you? Yeah. Oh. But she said I, sort of, she said puts, puts something in here ear it You know sometimes when you you, you put your Your pop the , yeah, you can Yeah. pop your ears can't you? Oh! Oh well. Anyway, you've had a week off. Yeah, that's right. Resting. Rest? I haven't rested! What did you I haven't had a chance to rest! what did you do then? You got your greenhouse Pam said. Yes. Where you gonna put it? Down the bottom of the garden. It's down where the rest of goes down int it? Yeah, I dunno what to do with that. Plants , not , I keep calling it . I might use some of that polythene, that thick polythene sheet that Derek gave me and do that round the bottom sheet. I said to him, they got enough junk up there now and you have to go and I'll could use that. add to it! I reckon I'll cut that up perhaps and Yeah. And put the bottom actually It came from erm it's gonna fit. a flat It's plastic. Yeah, they had erm a balcony and er, so then they didn't want it there any more so he took it off. Oh! And I said, well they've got enough stuff up there! Amanda says oh well John wanted it! And I reckon I'll, I reckon I can use that instead of glass. And won't he hit his head hard if he gets into it. No. Well it won't crack But it's stuck in it will it? Yeah but it's stuck in . Yeah, but they have all sorts of ideas don't they? Nobody else knows about it yet. Because I think I would have thought he'd stop doing that now, but Pam said he still runs down the bottom of the garden. Yes, he's quicker than he thinks. He, he's got now, he just cuts from and he's just missed the tree. Said he wobbles doesn't he? Oh yes! Yeah, he catches himself on all sorts of things. Do you think he'll be any better? Tha than he is now? Maybe. Yeah But I think he gets a little better. Cos he wobbles doesn't he? And he sort of I dunno he si when he picks his paw up sometimes it's all erm, limp isn't it? Oh yes! Where he can't Yeah. Will he get any feeling back in those do you think? Oh no. But he int too bad . No, I didn't think he'd get that better. I thought you'd have to have him put down. I didn't honestly think he'd get any better. Especially when I first saw him sort of, crawling on his tummy and not wanting any food and I thought, ah! I don't think he's gonna get any better. He surprised me actually. He's a real character dog Yeah. thought isn't he? Yeah. He's a Really surprised me! I dunno, I've never had a dog with such character as that one. Because I didn't think he'd have the erm what's the word I want? To get up and go again, I think he sort of, I thought he was just gonna lay there. No, he's tough! Yeah. Yeah, but he's, he's, he can't keep doing that can he? No. Well not once he gets older. Cos I mean if he keeps rushing down there and you got the greenhouse there he's gonna go through that! Well he don't go right down You can't go through ! he don't go right down. He don't rush that way. He won't be er , but she was so she said you're gonna chop the tree down, that tree whe , that he bumped into ! But I think he won't do that again. Will he? Well he will go into something else. You know, he he could do. He's excitable isn't he? He's sort of He's determined. Yeah. Nothing matters, only where he's going. He walks Yeah. if there's a cat, he goes straight through the bushes and he'll go straight through! That's what I mean, you see. It's a bit like a boxer dog because Derek's sis sister had a boxer dog and he used to we used to walk along country lanes and then he'd pi , he used to see something he used to go straight through the hedge! No one 's That's right. in the way! Oh Bramble . and all sorts! Yeah , that's right. Yeah! I thought stupid animal! Yeah, this one's just the same, yeah. Yeah. Daft! Oh he'll get hold of a hedgehog and shake it and with that he'll come out with prickles all on the end Oh! of his nose! He'll have all fleas all over him! You know, but he does, I can tell you, he does anything! Yeah. Da , have you seen the fox in your garden? Oh! All over the place. They They stink the place out! they, yeah we've got one, we've one going through our garden, he's limping now I don't know what's wrong with him. He's so got something wrong with his back paws or something like that. In the day time? Yeah! He sits down here and he sunbathes! On the bottom down there. He walks through there and he gets up on that shed at the bottom of the garden next door but one. Does he? Yeah. Gets up on the, on the shed. Yeah! I don't like him in the garden, but Derek keeps encouraging this thing. I said if our cat gets out all over the Put all the , all the scraps out. That's what he keeps doing for them. I don't want him to do it! So if he does it again, he's had it! dogs as well. Yeah! That's what he does. And yo you see our cat's always roaming around now, I said he'll get that stuck on his ears that rats has. I don't want him having that on. Fox ? Yeah! Do cats get it? Dunno. Most of our garden'll be finished one day! Gonna concrete that all round is he? Yeah, he was gonna have a path all the way round. And he's terracing the garden . Dunno where, mind, but it erm, and he's gotta finished painting outside yet. And then he's terracing the gar ,th sh , he's gonna bring the shed out, because it's rotten, it's behind that hedge you see. Mm. But I don't know if I want it brought out. I don't particularly look at the shed but there you are. But you leave it there it rots. It was my mum's shed actually, he bought it down after she died. That's his mum's picnic table, we got all dead people's stuff ! That's his mother's plastic table she bought just before she died. Looking at all the, at the stuff but the trouble is you've gotta find somewhere to put it all haven't you? And our garden's not very big. And it's alright for, your garden's bare! Got so much rubbish, it's not true! What did you do? I put it, put it aside cos I will use it one day. That's what Derek says. You see we got th er collects things down here he keeps chucking rubb , he said well I need it. I said, but when? Oh! Oh! I'll need it! We did actually, cos he used to for all going down there. But I suppose it'll get finished one day. I don't know how you manages your garden. Too big! Isn't it? Don't worry about this, I think, you don't have to worry about it. Yeah, but men don't, but wo wo women at home looking out the window they do don't they? I've gotta re-lay all the grass now cos we run out of Oh yeah. I've got that tree stump down. Yes. Pam said you did that. That was good wasn't it? Mm. Oh it were your mam, I think your mam told me that you'd got it out. I bet that's made it a bit lighter hasn't it, with that tree gone? Oh yes! Next door especially. More light. Well you got one of their trees in there and they'll cut that down and they don't do anything about them. The sun goes behind there. I don't know the pe , people's name next door. What here? Yeah. Erm I thought you were definitely gonna Thought you said you were in a rush this morning? I thought you were definitely gonna show me up today and say, how the hell am I supposed to get into the garage? Yeah. I didn't realise you'd taken it. I haven't forgotten to go shopping up. That's why. Yeah. If I'd have got my clothes on to get Yeah, but I thought perhaps you wanted to get into the freezer No. If I'd have wanted to go And you'd have been onto me saying Oh, if I'd have wanted to erm I, I thought it was quite fu erm, funny because I got back to erm the flats this afternoon Yeah. and erm Mrs S came running out oh! Mr she says Mrs S Oh Mr Oh. she said what are we going to do if these people buy the bungalow? They'll be running all over the garden! What, ah, have they got some people then? And John and I have been thinking of the worst possible situation that they could have. Yeah. Like if it's a family with about forty kids by the place! Yeah. Little snotty nosed kids running around everywhere! Pardon? Have they got anybody to look in there? Yeah, people are wondering into the property Oh! erm That's not very good then is it? If they're wandering in and out. No, I think they're gonna have to be a bit careful. Mm! But I asked them to photograph those documents which we found and they don't want to do it, so that's up to them. Oh well,isn't it? You go and have your shower then and then you can have some tea. Yeah, I'm going to have a shower. I don't think Claire's phoned. She's gonna have to work until you go out. She's coming though isn't she? Yeah, but she's Well she didn't sound all that keen to me. Well she was one who wanted to go. Well, she should come and have a break from work really. This book looks good doesn't it? What one's that? Did this come in the post this morning? Yeah, Claire was looking through it Biter Bounce lunchtime. How come Well we had two copies sent to us because Amanda sent away for some Ah! at one time so they sent us Oh! two copies so it'll be something to do by the time we get back. Oh. There's a new magazine out now as well, which I expect erm Stephen would like to have it's to do with racing cycling it's called Oh. Cycling Plus. Oh well tell tell him. I'm going up the garage anyway, alright? Alright then. That was very interesting, Mr phoned me today . Yeah. And Erm and he reckons he's on a I was in the car park, hit the brakes and Are there are messages on the I was in the car park. answer phone? No. I was in the car park and er, I got back into the car and, with Mrs , the phone rang and it was erm Mr , he was going out at half past three. I said well I can get back there by ten, ten past three. Andrew's been in, done the job. Has he? Yep! Oh good! All finished. Good! So er Is he dealing with the payment of that one? Who? Andrew. No, I will. Oh you will too? So , in fact er about the middle of next week a Yeah , well go and have shower! Yeah. Alright. I'll go and have a shower now. See you in a minute. Mm. You said I'll phone you if I'm coming in for tea! Oh! What's happening? Nowt. You don't look very pleased. I thought I wasn't gonna get home till twelve o'clock! Sorry? Decided not to take it out tonight. Have you gotta go in tomorrow? No. All day tomorrow? Oh that's good! No. John said to me er You ready love? Look , everybody should have a complete break for the weekend. Ah! Does Oh! mean to say he wants a break does it? Yeah. Yeah! He's not even gonna let Steve come in which is er I don't want them. Or maybe he can't afford the wages? Yeah. Might Well be. you move forward to love! But this world ! What time did daddy get home? . I just have, I've just come, I'm just home. Ooh! Alright. Blooming shower! He sat there looking very Yeah. Oh ! No wonder this house i is full of dirt! Hello then Wiggy! Oop! Sorry! How on earth did she get out? I think I don't know. She must have thrown herself down the stairs! She's a strange sort of cat! With this world, la la, la la la la la la . I was surprised to see a cat out there. How did she get that? What, with . With this world . Yes sweetie! I know you're hungry! What? What? Up you go! Come on! Up! I'll not if you like. She's a little bugger int she? Yeah. Come on then! Little bit? Come on then!at your food! John said to me, what are your arrangements for tonight Claire? Mm. I said I'm going out. Oh yeah. Oh, good for you he said. Good for you! Why was he gonna ask you to work? Yeah. Oh well. Who's working tonight then? Steve worked until three o'clock this morning! Did he? Yeah. Oh yeah! I've never known a place like it! I've never known a bloke like it! I'm sure you haven't. What's that? Not much there. Well there's not much of them, I haven't done my shopping have I? with this world , yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah! Love this world ... I said I'd keep the beans for Yeah! And I can . How many pieces of toast do you want? Two please. Put four, er three. I didn't know you said about twenty past. But I was coming home. Oh! Need to exactly find out before I knew I'd got mucked up the whole thing and can't send there back either. Oh. The P word was getting on my nerves an awful lot this afternoon!. Dad took Peter to work today said I thought he was gonna to John when I came home, he took the whole front of Oh! Have you closed the closed the front door? Mum, dad heard a burglar alarm going off didn't you? I could hear this burglar and she said have you closed the front door? I said yeah, I said er wait a minute and when I came down, the conservatory door was open and the front door was on the latch Oh, god you have to watch him good job I said something because it would of erm no, I don't know where that tool is I was given for Christmas its gone so where did you put it? unless its in the side of my motor bike in your bag, yeah I'll have a look on my motor well I thought you had it, I thought you took it out with you one day, when you went out perhaps its its a lovely day again today yes its night outside yeah absolutely gorgeous those chain cleaners are good aren't they? yeah I've seen those before like a yeah sealed in mm those what?, its a chain cleaner, dad, how much are they? fifteen pound fifteen? mm mm, are they a necessary piece of equipment? no, not really only if your a professional biker does, does Steven know there's a new cycling magazine out? I don't know dad a racing cyclist Steven and I do not converse, we just so what's happened in work today Clare, there must be something happen love not really, quite boring actually perhaps he don't want you in now maybe business is bad it don't feel like Friday today probably cos I've had a day off no its weird in it? I've opened some 'em yeah, I've seen it I must get my bike back together dad I might yeah go and buy some wheels tomorrow yeah, cos you've got the money there oh I thought you were buying a new one with that money I've got enough money to make together, er, yeah yeah, but she's got enough money for two bikes oh has she? yeah oh are you gonna put different bits, bits on 'em I know, I know what I would do Clare actually, I would buy another second hand mountain bike would you? cos I don't think your gonna be, your gonna be satisfied with having a you know the er, if you get a dropped handled bar bike you, you won't like it, I'm telling you mm, perhaps I ought to have a go at Nicks and there not all so heavy as, as that I can tell you that no I tell you what, if you get one of the earlier mountain bikes there made of five three one tubing which is lighter than what you've got, there's loads of them in the paper for sale and there so cheap yeah, they are cheap and what you can do is to keep that one for best yeah, but its not best is it really, the frame's so heavy you can hardly ride it I don't know whether its worth well the alternative is to, to put it in the paper and advertise it to sell it, say the, the wheels have been stolen mm, any body who picks up that frame dad on its own, is gonna think bloody hell that's no heavy no they won't because well I would at the college Margaret where Clare went to the other day they had a notice saying about bicycle theft's from the college did they? yeah what's it say? I wished I'd of stayed a bit longer now and had another look around why I, I wanted to go around with you, but I wanted you, what I was thinking of when I was sat in the car that you, when you come back you could take me round when you've been round mm and a lot of people take the front wheel off the bicycle and take the front wheel into college with them yeah I would of liked to of looked around actually yeah I was such in a and I thought haste to get away I think I thought I saw some students go across the road, they went out of the main entrance and walked that's the university that is where's that then? down the hill well why did they go down there then? well perhaps they applied to university as well or perhaps the sports grounds down there its the university hall she didn't say any thing about using the university facilities why they must do because I saw some of the groups of them going no or if they were going to the university they wouldn't of gone there for the interview no, what I'm say is they might of had an interview for the university as well no I don't think they did what's erm interviewees or students already there? no, people coming for oh interviews were taken on tours and I saw some of them go down the hill oh oh I suppose it depends on the, on the it was ever such a big erm accommodation camp, because we went behind the college down the hill I know and there's another Queen Hill and there's this first, second and third year old where the club is where the social club was, yeah yeah, where the social club, where you went in that building mm, mm yeah and actually there's another entrance down there because cars were coming in there yeah they were coming in there and we nearly got knock got knocked over about five times actually there was another student car park at the back as well the students are allowed to park their cars outside their rooms are they? mm that's good in it? and I saw two or three rising tyres and park and jump out and go into their rooms oh so they have cars then some students not very, I didn't think there was very many cars there, most of them were beat up cars weren't they?, like mini's and things I reckon this is is this spi , is this a spicy? what she mean beat up cars?, yeah I think it said spicy yeah, is it nice? mm, nice and hot yeah mm How longs the book the erm, a waiting list now for Mrs four weeks oh about four weeks oh I got her there, she said she was in a hurry because she was afraid to leave Keith too long I said well I'm in a hurry as well so I got her there as quick as I could and erm don't she leave her mother then? mm? doesn't she leave her mother? she doesn't like, well he had erm a bit of an attack last night, palpitations oh did he? and that's dangerous for him because mm of, he's got a severe heart condition how did her husband die did you say? he spent erm, two years in the services I think dur during the war, two or three years and went through a bit of action and then, I think she said he was a policeman when he came out he, he joined the police force and he was cycling home one day and erm, I don't know, he fell off the bicycle, hit his head and he died ooh thirty five so her sons then not and then she married, she her sons not the name of her then she married again and her second husband died what when he was young as well? no it was some years before she re-married again oh she said she wish'd had gotten re-married earlier than when she did, so I'm not quite sure how long it was oh and er I said to her do you miss London?, and she said well she does for the theatre and that because they were only a short tube ride away from the West from the West End theatre's and she said there's more on in Poole here than there is in Bournemouth in terms of plays and mm theatre, in which there is mm erm does she and that and I, I showed her around some I, on the way back I said I'll take you to Branston Park on the way back and I'll show you where John's working and I took her on to the, into the car park and I said look there he is up, huh, cutting the lawn, he was up cutting that, the big lawn she said one massive place I mean I took her all the way through Branston Park back to erm she said do you wanna come in and look at the kitchen now and I said no I won't stop now I'll work bring it up with my yes I'll have a biscuit I said that's quite good erm magazine that I'm gonna have a look at that its quite interesting tonight have a what? have a biscuit don't you want that? no thank you what do you want a Hob Nob? I said I'll work something out for you and erm I'll be in touch with you next week see you've given her the food, food yeah but its all altered because she's altered the ah, will there be more down there? yeah oh now she's changed her mind, the trouble is when you go and look at all these lovely kitchens yeah see, soon change don't ya? you change your mind don't ya? yeah I think she would of liked it er if her son was with her, she would really of liked him to be with her so that, cos she said he, he owns half the house mm, mm they've got it in joint names mm she said that wished she'd er, he'd been able to come, I think, I don't, I think she worries about him too much, too much well he could of done if he'd of taken her in the car would , couldn't she? well I don't think he would of done, he's too shy oh is he? mm thank you Clare, erm myself, I think that if any thing happens to Keith which is obviously he's not gonna live a long life if any thing happens to him I, I myself I reckon she'll go back to London, because she's got absolutely nothing here she's got a cousin although, I don't think she'd move in, in with her cousin has she got relatives in London? yeah oh her bo , not very many there, because her mother had her very late in life oh like your mother oh and erm, her brother is eighty one, her, her brother mm and er, she said he's a bit a she said he's suffering from Alzheimer's disease mm and half way through a composition he can't remember who he's talking to and things like that mm so how erm, but he's eighty seven he is, her brother no he's eighty one no he's eighty seven I've just remembered it, he's eight seven erm I reckon she'll go back to London myself well why did she come and live down here in the first place? well she came down for Keith's sake, she came down to Bournemouth for holidays and erm like it so much she brought the company. oh Julian was telling me that erm he's house on a Friday night is like a mad house because his daughter does a bit of hair dressing on the side, and she's having people come to have their hair done oh, she's got her own flat no she comes to Julian's house cos oh to have her hair done, she brings her boy friend with her and, another neighbour always drops in to have a chat with his wife on a Friday evening, she stops about an hour, then his son brings his girl friend, so he said its like a mad house mm I think his back was aching a bit actually was it? yeah does he get a back problem? well no but I mean its, it was er really hard work he'll regret he ever met you laying a hundred and thirty slabs mixing up four tonnes of cement, pretty hard work well you helped him didn't you? yeah I know, but its still very hard work, and I'm ten years older than he is I, I just did as much as I could for him really, I mean I did more mixing than he did, I did nearly all the mixing he erm mm you know Mr ? show me that I haven't read it though no how much do you want dad? erm oh yeah after I've sloshed it every where mm, mm that's enough for me Clare the one on the right I'll have, the slightly smaller one this one here? to sit down for five minutes after the tea, no the other one was, is that the biggest one?, thanks, there you are oh that's it we had the electricity bill in today Margaret reminder, got us paying have I got a sweet? have I brought the er second one down there yet? mm? did I bring you the second of that stupid one down? what from the office? yeah not the, there's a spoon there yeah, I don't use that to put in the sugar oh , April ninety two I've paid it the second one mm yeah cos you were there when they called weren't you and they revised it? mm and you paid the revised one which is about half the price isn't it? mm ain't I?, I've got loads really but I can't find them any where was it a good job Clare? mm, April I mean there yeah not doing September's yet you see erm yeah Simon told me that a school along the road by Pardah's bakery well I don't know where Pardah's well on the main nor do I by Warer Road what, but, before the church or after the church, before the Co-Op or after the Co-Op? well which way your going? erm Springfield Road way before the Co-Op and the shops behind the trees isn't it bushes?, you can't see it from the road can you? you can a bit its sort of it, you know the pub on the other side mm its a bit passed the pub, that's where she thinks it is any way oh and I think its to replace Rushcome school, cos Rushcome school's down there isn't it? its to take the pressure of it yeah so they won't, oh so its not closing Rushcome school no, no oh what was that school in there Clare was that the yeah that would of been lovely could of rented Mrs house that's only two months before she finishes yeah but that's the autumn term er there not advertising the autumn terms yet So I've got time to sit down for five minutes before we go out ain't I? mm What's a stump jumper dad? Its a mountain bike, just what they call it a stump jumper mm in the mountain bike in the mountain bike competitions they, they show them going over rocks and they have to jump them, the only way over it is to jump them sort of like bunny hoping bunny well its like on, well no its like on er a po a pogo stick oh dear Clare a pogo stick so its like bunny hoping B M X that, they, there, yeah well yeah, that's right, yeah I know what you mean is there a stump jumper on the other side yeah is there? four hundred or near offer that's ridiculous isn't it?, good start for a second hand bike mountain bike Peugeot a hundred and thirty, solo San Solo racer there's always plenty of erm gents mountain bike, eighty five pounds what make is it? erm and if you buy Golf, Saracen ooh that's a good make Clare red, alloy wheels that's a good make Clare stop sniffing oh my nose is running and also you want proof of ownership go and get a tissue that you buy any bikes yeah that's quite a good idea cos it could be nicked nicked and stolen Saracen is what we looked at in Horsfall Saracen were those yellow one's weren't they? no they were orangey red yeah and there was yellow one's cos there, there was a lot yeah it was Saracen that we looked at eighty five pounds not bad is it? I was listening to this island disc this morning and erm Benny Hill is it? Roger Bannister it must be Benny Hill next week then and er oh he's gone into hospital hasn't he again? and he said do you do any running and he said no, but he said his son's bought him a mountain bike, so he yeah does a bit of cycling he said which keeps him fit oh he was the first four minute miler wasn't he? mm doesn't he do any running any more? well he's too old don't be daft don't be daft , he's about sixty five oh there's loads of veteran runners of that age running around still yeah and dropping dead I think it, oh is he as old as that? he was, well no, he's, he's a bit older than that, I should know. he said something about when I was fifty three I did this or something oh like that he's a neu neurology, neurologist yeah yeah mm I don't want a A reg Citron two C V, eight fifty or near offer , god there going cheap aren't they? mm nobody wants them I shall keep it for a bit longer Clare yeah, its just in the wet weather its a pain yeah it goes in the dry weather doesn't it straight away? yeah starts straight away mm its a shame does, yeah that there's wet weather most of the year yeah isn't it really? and did I tell you I bumped into Jean when I went down yeah, I tell you what she's on her way to erm, she showed me her tiles in the bathroom there quite pretty, erm, she erm isn't very pleased with the way the tiling's been done no and she had they were why, I did notice something else, but I thought its not, I'm not saying any thing to Jean though they were er a what she wants you to look at it and see cos its not fair, but I noticed that they'd put plywood at the back of the bath mm where the shower fittings were coming through mm and in my opinion they should of clad the plywood with plasterboard before they put the tiles on oh I don't know and I bet you they haven't any way she said its nothing like the tiles she had done in the kitchen no so she, she, if it weren't, if she has him to build her own suite, she's gonna get erm Lee, what was his name Clare? Lee dad cos he did a really good job to do the, the tiling and you see she had seconds tiles well from Pilkingtons and there's little, she said you wouldn't notice it but there's little like, little things on and when he did the grouting yesterday she said that she said it was awful, she didn't like it at all so she told him this morning what she didn't, what she didn't like the tiles or she didn't like the grout no didn't like how he grouted it because she said there, things like a little nick in the tile, if he'd gone in with the grouting it wouldn't of shown any and he didn't yeah, but why should he have to bother to go and nick in seconds tiles I don't know she shouldn't of dam well bought seconds tiles should she?well I mean if you buy what do you expect? and she said she, its cos she said, she said of course if its because she's so used to Joe he would of, I said yeah but he went over the top didn't he, cos he always did every thing to perfection, I said you can't have Joe doing it fancy let to go in and mix with the grouting, its a bit of a cheek in it? well he got the tiles she didn't yeah, but she selected them and she got yeah, but she they didn't get the one's that, she couldn't get the one's that she wanted cos they didn't have enough no, but if you'll buy if you buy seconds tiles Margaret then you have to well he went with her yeah, well that's not his bus that's her fault isn't it you'd buy seconds she said Joe would of got them all at the top where you couldn't see them and things like that, I said well you won't get builders doing that no of course you won't I'd er, I mean why should a buil haven't got time to do that why should a builder, because she's bought second tiles, take time to sort out the duff one's I said to her you'll just looking for fault all the time you are I said that's yeah what your doing, your just, she said I know I am she says I'm nick picking, I'm just looking for faults, I told you that today that's why you wouldn't when we do things sometimes, we won't fiddle about er, erm with poody things its just not worth it no but she said it look's much bigger, she's got a very big broom cupboard Cor their naff death, young death's in here tonight who's died then? twenty four, seventeen what they die off? tragic death both tragic death's well that's those well that's that car crash yeah that's those two girls its that car crash is it? yeah, well one of seventeen years it crashed no, one's a bloke no yeah well er twenty four? yeah he was the other driver wasn't he? no, but he wasn't killed it was two girls oh two seventeen year old girls one of them seventeen yeah mm inexperienced aren't they, they just need, they don't know how to get up the top, they must of only just learnt to drive look, seventeen, mustn't they?that's a fast road that isn't it across there? in it awful seventeen years mm and then your gone fast moving road I think that is ah that frog's still on top of the pond when its got air in it, it won't sink no, but I thought perhaps it was frozen so it won't fertilize yeah, but it , what do you mean its already fertilized yeah, but I thought the frost would of killed the, the well it might its gonna stay there until it rots no I thought the frost would of killed of the well I don't know if, if the eggs can withstand frost its too cold, there dead now now, I'm not sure that's what I mean there dead aren't they yeah cos it the frost it was like a lump of ice the other day I know, but you might as well throw it away yeah I think you might as well throw it go and yeah, but there's a big lump underneath the water as well they haven't been since its too cold no at a time they had, they had a lot from yes, is there really? I, I don't think warm, so why they early? well they do it is, they get a bit of sun on the water don't forget that water's not very deep yeah especially no the shallow end, any way I'm gonna clear off now, clear up what time we going out? well I said we'd pick up aunty Jean at twenty too eight I want to sit down before I go a rush this morning I have to put the tape on oh yeah, you'll be slapped mm that's cos I said to him round the other way turn round the other way she said and ran straight back this way . I was talking to Mrs the other day, down the road, she's had, she had er back problem and she gets terrible trouble at night, sleeping I saw her daughter about half past seven taking that yappy thing out did you? yeah it yaps a lot that do don't it? she was walking up the lane like this erm, John was talking about his erm his son his son today and he said he didn't pay his insurance, his car insurance up, I said well he's working in he?, he said yeah I said what he hasn't got a job has he? yeah he is working he's a computer oh where's he? specialist or something or, or training to do, and I says well what, what do you pay his car insurance for then if his working?, oh well he doesn't earn enough why's he got a car then? and I thought well why's he gotta car for then?, and what's happening his father's doing the car, spent about dad, your hard a year your a hard father I'm not, if you want a car you, you blasted run it, I didn't have a car when I was young I didn't have a bicycle Anyway, I'll I'll put in the note anyway, because that's the, thank you because I, I feel I've got to get a few prices to find out Yes. what the sort Yeah. sort of erm, the market's like. But no, I've made up my mind now, I'm going to get it all done. I'm going to gradually Yeah. I I've, finished Get the work, yeah. now and Well you've done very well, I think. And I mean that kitchen was a major job Oh! weren't it? All done now. That kitchen was yes! But didn't it go on for such a long time! Yeah. But mind, I will say this about this chappie he does stick to it. I mean, he's Oh. gonna stick there today and I Well to work at the weekend as well Yes! he must be maybe he's looking out for more work, I admire Yes! people like that. And, not only that, he's got one of his men in with him! You see he's got, bought a chappie in with him. So I I I've said to Margaret, he's a, I think he must doing something with the extractor fan because he's cut a hole in the er barge pole so, on the board so obviously Up there. doing something up there. Well I said to Derek, look at our tiles, you see, and he said that's unfair because he said these aren't, what? They they never Your tiles are these, these, your tiles are the same as ours in the bathroom have got slight raise on the edge Yes , they have. But then you don't do that. to make a good square so you Ah! have to big spaces in these Mm. that's why there's a lot of Mm. grouting. So you don't do that Even with a big old bathroom. Yeah. But mind, since you No , not down here. Ah! Upstairs. Upstairs. Ah! But since you've, since you've said it's not too bad, I looked at it again, I thought, no, perhaps it's not too bad. No it's not. I think I was being over-critical. I think you weren't . Yes, well, I wanted to fill in those bits though. Oh! Ah! But I think perhaps I'm And in some places I'm inclined to yeah it was , it was Yeah. quite But, if I ever have it done again I'm going to buy those brass things, and, it only costs about five pounds more. Whereabouts did you get them? I've seen them with the tiles . I don't think , I don't think you had them with those tiles Well we did them when in the kitchen! Yes! You had it, I with the Yeah. Yeah, but maybe he done it cos you space there, see. Well, that's it. Well do you know the tiny little Didn't he? No. So there's that, all that Cos half of tiles don't need spacing. Oh! You sure it hasn't got two blips along the se , one rung at a time. No, I don't think it has. No I don't think it has. But it's ,i I saw him down at , what he did he moved the bottom which Yeah. gives him his level then you put the stuff on the wall then you . Amazing isn't it? But it's marvellous to see a good expert at Yeah. work! No spaces. No. So th , no spaces in them? No! Exactly the same as yours. Er,th , a lot of the modern tiles don't have spaces. So you'll be doing it by eye? No, you don't need to do it by eye. Once you put the bottom run in and that's Oh I see! Oh pardon me! I'm thinking that's the bottom run. I'm with you! That means Once it gets coated, once everything is level That's on one run I see what you mean. It's got to be Yeah. So that you don't you don't really need No. to leave spaces used to leave spaces ! Yeah. I tell you, I would leave spaces Yeah I'd have one slightly out and Yeah. and . And, you could imagine what Joey would have Yeah! done. You'd see a Just like, like that he was. Oh! Ha! Well I should imagine my would be insulted now when I gave him all those things ! Well perhaps he didn't use them. Well no, it's a lot of the modern tiles don't have spaces. Yes, but he'd be in . Anyway , I've gotta go look! Alright. Derek's Erm gotta go. What time are you gonna pick me I've gotta pick up today? I've gotta pick up this grout at don't wait for me Can Jean look round up there? Yeah. Don't wait for me for lunch. Margaret! Don't wait for you for lunch? Because, I I shall be back probably about, and just I mo , I'm, I've got the car phone in the car as well. Oh allright. Oh alright then. Do you know it was ju , I've been scrubbing, and scrubbing, and scrubbing my hands! And look at my nails Marg! I cannot Yeah. get over the dirt! Well I should wait till it's actually Jean, I don't think there's any, it's only that bit anyway, to be honest with you. Yes. No, I I I can remember what it's like actually. I Yeah. I couldn't , I think what I do now, when I, I don't look at anything and suddenly almost ready to have something done myself. Erm I think that I've found looking at it I don't think that's right if you go there. You don't think so? No. I think I'll go round looking now Have a look what every has got. Yes I will. I will. I'll go round looking and see So which would you prefer? Well the fine. Fine? Mm. You've got them crossed now haven't you? I think I have, yeah. Yeah. Oh yes! I've got them crossed. Got them crossed. You've got a good eye Margaret! Yeah. Got them crossed. I'd forgotten that! Mm. Well I wonder if that would be better? Well I don't know, I think that's quite nice across. But I think probably it's because it needs painting cos it's a horrible colour isn't it? Oh yes! What is it? Er er A creamy colour isn't it? I'm painting that with white. Yeah. I'm gonna have all white. Are you? And if I want any col , I'm going have towel hanging It's not at all. I'm going to have towel hanging where the cedarwood is now. Yeah. And if I want any colour I'm going to get some black taps in the bath. And I'm gonna paint that er Yeah. seat black. Yeah. So get the dark, very dark Yeah. black. I was fuming when I came home! And she's gonna get it when she comes home! Well I ca came home, I had Derek's overalls in the the sink, they need washing on their own, and I said to Cla , so I had to go shopping this morning because Claire only worked all day yesterday so she Oh yeah. couldn't take me so I Mm, yeah. can't do it. Mm. Because it hurts my back. And erm I said to her, dad's overall's in the machine so when they're finished you hand them on the line. Yes, okay, she said yeah. Now in here Jean was her washing bowl full of washing soap in and her bits and pieces like tights and that. Now, if you take something out of the machine in th , what would you do with that there? Well dry it. It was just left! Oh no! I can't do it now! So she's gonna get it when she comes in! Oh that's naughty Marg! And all you've gotta do is put Is just put it in! Yeah. So put some Yes, put some soap powder in. Yeah. That's naughty! See machine has gone off. That really is naughty. I mostly do now is hers. Yeah. But I was really mad! They just don't think! I was shattered today when I came home! They just don't think do they? And then Derek home and Manda said he was shopping, and I said oh come on! I said, it takes hours going shopping with you! He said oh! He said, we're not in a rush. I said, mind they don't eat . That's what we were saying used to say we do. Well I'm afraid I'm a bit like Derek, I take my time. Oh! Oh I love it! Go shopping, go and come back! Oh I love it! I, I, I love poking, but it's so funny what you see, now if I hadn't been poking, know that little bonsai tree? Mm. Now if I hadn't been poking around that shop and in an Mm mm. I would never have seen that Yeah , but that's different to food shopping. I hate food shopping! Ooh no! They've got, do do you know when I go into Sainsburys, mind you, sometimes I go into Sainsburys and I don't really want anything, I just like to look round in there. I bet you buy something though? No! I don't Don't you ? No. No. If I don't want anything I, I just go in there and I think well I'll just go and see I may see something which catches my eye. And I go in there and I have lov , I can be in there an hour! Just wandering around We do our in an hour! I know, I've seen you. We'd be in there three minutes! And that's too long! Ooh no! Yes but you don't see what they've got! in an hour, they must think you're weird! No they don't. Well, well what do you do? I just look , I just look at the shelves and I look to see what they've got and look around. But they look Yes, I, if you don't see what they've got. You might be missing something. Well I don't think anybody's see how much the Oh I know erm I really love to! I mean And, and it's surprising what I've found when I've bought erm Yes, but when you, you have to shop for us lot it can, and loads and loads and loads Ooh! it gets a bit I used to shop in Sainsburys . I mean Oh! it's exactly the same thing. I used to look, I used to look for bargains . Yeah, but you've always liked shopping anyway. Oh yes! I love poking around Marg. I really do like shopping for Joey used to say to me Yeah. don't go shopping with Jean! I it's a, sort of entertainment for me! I'm just gonna see how much the sultanas were at Tesco they're fifty five in Quicksave. Is that how much? I have to buy that. It's a whole week, mind we don't go out and erm when I came home just, the last evening, you know, after the play Mm. I enjoyed it really Marg! But I know it was a bit hot! It was too hot! Yes it was too hot. But I enjoyed it! Mind you, I thought it was nice. Yeah. I enjoyed it. Oh yeah, seventy five, they've gone up. Ooh! They're fifty, only fifty something Yeah. You I'll buy some in Quicksave. Yeah. They've got sulta , they've got raisins, fifty five! I only buy sultanas. Mm? I only buy sultanas. Well they go sultanas in there. Well raisins wouldn't hurt you. They're lovely! Yeah I have bought raisins, but normally they're, but they're not expensive are they? Well no! No! They're only fifty five! Oh! I'll change. But they aren't the they aren't the Californian ones where they're sort of big, fat and juicy Yeah. and sticky. These are, but they've still got the flavour of raisins Oh. mind. I'm, I don't like currants It's funny int it? much, I think they're something and nothing, currants. Yeah. I got some currants that are left over Have you? from Christmas and Yeah. I don't usa , I mean, I can't be bothered with them. Well I tell you why I haven't been buying currants lately cos they've been so blooming expensive! Oh! Are they? I think if I make a cake today I I'd rather put sultanas in. Mm. Derek, doesn't he like er candy peel either? Because Well mixed fruits is that's only fifty five now! Yes. I might get some mixed fruits. He's Yeah. he's tasted your marmalade. Oh what does he think of it. I, I had a little taste. I'm not very keen on marmalade. Aren't you? No. Well what did you think of it then? Well I think it was nice. But I just don't like bits. Oh I erm, no you don't? No, I don't. No. And marmalade's I love bits! too strong for me. But I'll make, I've got to make the other half of it, so when I make the other half of it he can probably have, er have a couple of jam ones No. He's got enough there. Oh Lord! Never mind he can I mean, I had to, I want you to have it all anyway. I like baking it for him! He, he enjoys it! I like doing it. Derek says to me something, he said all condensation in Jean's kitchen! Yes there was. I said, well I'll ask her what Mm. that was. Yes, and I, and I wiped down one side Yeah. And then I forgot to wipe the other side Yeah. And then I forgot to wipe the other side Couldn't see it. No it's by, I noticed it particularly by the tray. Ah! I I think I was interrupted. I think the builder called me Oh! And then, I forgot. Right. Yeah. And, er, and I noticed there was lines there and I thought oh, I must wipe that Yeah. and then I forgot all about it. But no, I'm going to get an extractor now though Marg. Actually in erm our bathroom and when we have a bath and a shower it always runs all down Yes. the tiles, so I don't think you can do anything about it now. No. And I think, all those windows I've got in that kitchen. You see, you've got the cold air coming in because you got so many, even with double glazing you got Yeah. cold coming in. Yeah. And, and you see I've got no confa , I've got no erm ventilation in the erm . I can't understand that! Well why doesn't, can't he do something about that or does he Yes. Well, when I get the bath Yeah. I can do. Cos Ca I said to them er, I've got no ventilation there, I said, I'd need something. He said, oh that's easily done. Well erm erm the chappie who did my door said, oh, there's no problem there you can easily put ventilation Ah well. in there. Oh. But it does need it. I don't know And the only thing that erm worries me See we've got air bricks up around ours. Yes. We got two. Yeah. You got . I can't understand how they managed to get Well don't they put air bricks in places? Well they should do, I would have thought. Mm mm. I thought they should do. Yes! I mean when yo , always up there, I think it's the electrician when he was doing the he said to me you know, you've got a lot of condensation in your loft. I said, well I'm not surprised cos there's no ventilation. No. And he said no, he said no . Oh I should get that done because it might do something. I dunno. Well it's for , I, I I can't understand why erm i i it's not been do , sort of not done ba by now because, oh yes. Perhaps they didn't bother. Perhaps they didn't ever go up in the loft. Well isn't it strange! Wonder you can get up into Yes. I got all up there and I can't You know Yes. You live up in your loft don't you? Well no. I said to the builder I've got more up there than I've got downstairs! He laughed! I just walk over things I Mm. tread over things Well ours is sort of, well Derek I told you, new ye , new year on the Sunday he went up and just threw some of ours out. And I Well don't know the I don't think he's left much space Mm. I'm going to, well, oh I keep on saying this, but when I've got all this off my back I'm going to be quite ruthless! I'm going to Oh! get rid of that. Well for me ! Quite ruthless for me. Oh dear! Erm but erm there's lots of stuff I can get rid off. Well I'm going to start selling some of it Marg. Now, that waffle maker now I, use that waffle maker about twice Ah! I'm going to sell that. Mm. Get rid of that. Mm. I'll put an advert up in the er, er Quicksave and er Yeah. That was a, er do , do people make them now? I think you can buy It was a rage wasn't it? You can buy them Yeah. in shops, so I Yeah. mean, you can't buy them, the actual waffle makers now. You can't Can't you? No. Oh! So I think, possibly,somebod , and I got all the recipe books Mm. and everything there you see, so they're not working in the Dining room. I always keep my instructions, always. Yeah. Yeah. I think they'd sell. And I think, my recipe books. I've erm when Amanda and Claire were younger I bought a milk shake thing from Oh yes! the milkman and that was, that's stuck in the cupboard. Yeah. I said to Amanda when you get your own home you can, she loves milk shake! Does she? So I said you can, and then I thought well if I ever do get grandchildren, no, I'll keep it. You can keep it. Yeah! That'll be lovely! Go round to grandma and have a milk shake. And I've got a wok up there that I've never used. Have you got a wok? Oh no! I never waste your time on it Marg! I didn't know what to do with it! Sell it! No, I'm gonna give it to Amanda and Claire because they'll use it. Oh will they? They only have vegetarian food but they'll use it. And I did use it once and I got in such a temper! Yeah. Cos you have to have it so the gas so high, it must be really boiling hot and you just stir fry the vegetables all round this Oh! er thing, and I thought I might as well use a frying a pan! Yes! But that's what I, all these gadgets, when you have these gadgets Marg it's more fuss taking out the gadget and washing Ooh yes! it up afterwards, than it is by Mm. doing it by hand! Mm. I find that with my erm erm what do yo ,mi food mixer. Yeah. I don't use it sometimes. Only Er thing I don't like u doing with the hands, pastry, so I'll use my food mixer, cos I Oh I don't like don't like mixing pastry. No, I never mix pastry. It gets all, urgh! Well I fix up, cos I make a lot of erm those er dribbled scones on the top Mm. I do it with a knife. I don't Yeah. put much fat in them. No. And I've made those a lot! Have you? I'm waiting for you to make those things in your erm What in my sandwich maker? Sandwich maker? Oh I, I looked in the library today! I'm going to get erm a book, I think they do erm cookery books on erm, sandwich makers, so Yeah. I'll go in there, I'll get a Ah yeah. book, and I'll get a few recipes Yeah. out of there. Well I like to have a toasted sandwich for dinner. I forget about it. Yeah, but I can't have much. I mean, I can only have fo lunchtime with Claire, like, I've been having tomatoes on toast and some . Horrible aren't they? Yeah. And they've gone all, you see I haven't been eating them so they've been in the fridge and they've gone all soft. And I thought, well that's not very interesting! So I sprinkle about three strands of cheese. Have you got any marmite? Now marmite's . And what I'm going to do today, I've got erm ah I I've got a button on these things I got some mashed potato Yo ? No I won't. I I've got some mashed potato and carrot there I'm going to put some onion on top of that I'm going put What , cut up or rings? No, I'm just gonna put so , erm No the onion. er, chopped up finely. Chopped up? Ah, not rings? No. Put that on the top and I'm going to put marmite on the the base Doesn't it bulge out the bread? Well I don't, I'm bread and I might some of it on the top. Well don't you put weight on? No. I had, I've had cheese, I've I got I lot of erm, on erm piccalilli and erm sweet pickle. Claire's got to have pi pic piccalilli. She has Branston sandwich she likes, not the ordinary pic , have you seen the sandwich pickle? It's been chopped up much smaller. Oh has it? Either that or , they like this. They like this cos it's smaller. Oh yes! Oh I like the chunks Yeah. in it? But she likes the lumps in er, I was gonna buy some pickled onions today, till I saw the price! I thought blow that! Why do why don't you make some? Oh yeah. Ne next year I'm gonna pickle some onions. Well you can pickle some for me . I erm But last time I did them I didn't put enough salt in them No. They were a bit plain this Oh. So I I, next time I'm gonna put lots Well don't put too much salt in! Well you've got to. But it does away. Yeah. so I threw them away again. Oh did you? Mm. Oh! I don't eat Just a many and I've stopped eating them at Christmas when I brought them and I started eating them again. I I just li like Oh I see. Yeah, but they didn't have salt on these. So I tho , I thought, you don't do you? Ooh I, yes! Have you? Yes! Oh! Because erm Not the big one do you? Well, I I Big one? Are you short of them? Well I wear pop socks. Alright I'll wash them out and I'll Mm. let you have them. Yeah. I was gonna take, I thought perhaps you didn't want anymore. Oh yes I want some. Well I'll erm wash them out, let you have those. Yeah. If you wash those tops thoroughly Yeah. put them back on, it . Yeah, well I'll let Yes. you have those. Could have the lot, I mean, I know, but erm Much better. I did have a load of that tops and I took them all down the . So I got fed up, fed up with, a lot of , it's always full up! It'll be murder! Yes! Well why doesn't he Yeah Yeah! empty them! Yeah. Yeah. And I think you see people are basically green minded Marg. Yeah I certainly am. Went down there with all the wine bottles from Christmas don't do but and then it's completely ruined! People were just leaving boxes of them on the in the car park. I , I thought the Yes. the lads could come aco , along there and smash them! Yeah. They should clear it! And I, and not only that, I mean, if they're selling it to help with the poll tax, I mean all that money's Yeah. going isn't it? Ooh I know ! Yeah. I don't know, I'm not sure which ones yo , I just notice what says recyclable on them. I don't think you can put them all in now. I thought they had to say recyclable . I thought you put any of them in. I dunno. I don't know. I think you could do. And in this last bottle bank, it used to say up there green, clear, brown and other you see. Well, they o , they haven't bothered up there, so I think people, I mean I was doing it, I was , she sort of shoved them in this thingie and I looked up and it said, green! Well what well Well they've got a green bottle and they, they melt it down, it's gonna look green isn't it? And ha , you see all the bottles are going to look, multi- coloured bottles So I thought well, we've, we've, but I didn't see that. I said to Claire, I said, I'm sticking them in the wrong one. She said well it's too late now, the the clear one's full so we just anyway, went I went down the next day there's a new one or, next time, there's a new one down there so they, they must obviously think, well put them all in together. Yes. Well I do , don't know if you're supposed to pi , take the labels off are you? You ta , you're supposed to take the tops off. They don't like you putting the tops in there. Well I should think you're supposed to take the labels off. Well I notice some people do don't they? Well I always take the labels off. Yes. I normally take them off. Yeah. A jam jar, now we take Yeah. the things off. I didn't well I, and I took the labels off the plastic bottles as well, but I notice people don't. Erm with them,i they don't need tins do they? Ordinary tins? No, it's Coke isn't it? Erm Mm. Aluminium cans Yes. they want. Like Coke. Yeah. Well I was thinking if you do this it helps with doesn't it? Well, not only that Marg, it help I mean, all that waste, it helps with the environment Yes. anyway. Yeah. Erm, and I think this . Yeah. I mean, that's why a lot of people have gone over to recycled erm toilet rolls because fancy cutting down trees just for that! And tissues. Yeah! Recyclable tissues as well. And it's awful when you think all of those trees you can cut down Mm. in a park. And I'd rather use newspaper now rather than use use erm Just us doing it won't, won't stop it. Pe lot's of people will do. And I think lots of people Erm, I don't know. I look in peoples' erm shopping trolleys at Tesco and they er don't seem to er Don't they? No. And, nothing may me to buy it now unless it's recycled. No. I don't always do that. I try to get recycled erm notepaper and Mm. Yes I wo , and it's no more expensive Marg. You can get birthday cards a on recycled paper. Mm. And I Mind , they're a bit more expensive. And I know the Post Office prices have gone up with er cards. Post Office are very good! Well they didn't use to be Oh! on cards. Oh! I thought you meant you were . They used to do birthday cards in there, in the Post Office. They used to be from tha , and they still are in there. Yeah. See, the others, they're all about ninety nine Ah! That's terrible! for blank birthday cards, but in there they're forty, fifty for cards. They're a lot cheaper. Mm. But I refuse er, spend that on. Yeah. They'll think, ah it's only it's the thought that counts anyway isn't it? Er, the only thing I don't like about cards is now they've got these . No, I don't like them. No, I don't like them either. I don't even buy them for Derek. No I, I can't spend that. No I don't like them. I just like it when you open it it says happy birthday. Well, yeah. That's right. Or best wishes or some Yes. Yeah. Some something simple Yeah. yes. Well it's not meant anyway. Well it's such strong stuff. That's right. It's not meant. is. sentimental isn't it? Yeah. And I think and perhaps when I was younger I used to buy it for Derek, but I wouldn't go there now, no. He does? Does he? He doesn't really does he? Just looks a card and buys it. I bet he doesn't he even read what was in . That'll do for her! But some of Well them really! you pick a funny thing, ooh isn't that funny! Yeah. It'll just do for someone. Yeah. Mind you, it's not the same as those stupid Yeah. Card erm things, yeah. verse inside inside! Mm. I bought Amanda a card yesterday cos she was a bit down so I thought, oh I'll send her one a card, and I got one from . It's an old fashioned mangle, like mum used to have in the picture. When I phoned up she said what a lovely card! I said no! Cos that was forty nine I said. Yeah. Oh, she said, I'm gonna frame that one mum. That's nice! Really , really nice it was! Yes. That was nice. Thought she was a bit down so I thought well I'll er send her a card. They had a good job in the paper erm , part of the school. But it was only for year. But it's actually temporary that's what I'm, and erm it wan , it was starting in April so that was no good! Ah! Ah! temp, you know. They can keep the names in the school. That's what they do, they have a year off er totally, then they go back again. Well you can't got a mortgage Oh no! and what have you. No. But I think that won't be a problem. No. But I don't, not only that Marg, I mean, it's become like a , but the only thing I do object to is these people marching about, and they don't want to help pay for their children's No. No. and they want the funds, the the pennies there don't they? And nobody to erm, pay the costs of it. , but you can't expect it all! No, I wish erm you worked that as well. Cos I was telling the children . Yeah. cos people who get their noses in there . So I was trying not to talk . But I still don't think it hurts children to . Some it does. Some it does. Some it erm, I mean, I'll go Claire'll say, clean up the house! Clear up this mess! Well, as a family we overreact. I'm saying that but I , went on holiday with Mary and I was three years older than Mary and mum said to me ooh look after her Mary! And it wasn't I've never felt so embarrassed in my entire life Marg! No, but I think it's very difficult for a mum. Because what is done, I mean when I was in hospital his mum used to that try and pick up Yeah! your stuff. Yeah, but there's a , I can see how she does it because you've done it al , you know, for sixteen, seventeen years Can't get out of it. can't get out of the habit. No. But I don't mind getting in in the family , but you I always remember, when David was growing up, he was about seventeen or eighteen, his friends came round, they were going out somewhere and grandma was there and she said to, er to us in front of erm David's friends oh isn't he a pretty boy! I never, the look on everybodys' faces! I mean, imagine what his friends thought! And David's and his face coloured down Mm. you know. Ah but you never . Well, oh isn't he, I can see when she looking at him was looking at him, that's what . Yeah. Oh! And he, and he Mind you,. You know,. No! Yeah, but you do forget sometimes, you sa , you still think they're .. Yeah ! You know and what do you think I am? An and, and things like that, and yo it's automatic. Mm. And if want to check quickly in a car and I'm driving I automatically put the hand Now you know I've done that to Pam and she couldn't stop laughing! Going along driving . I said, I'm sorry Pam, I keep thinking your Ma Amanda . Now it hadn't occurred to me to do that because I never had kiddiwinks. No, you see, I automatically do it you see. Yeah. driver! It is funny! But then, I suppose, really erm, you never think when you're forty like, you never think of them I don't think so. I don't think that now. I know, now, you could but, but Derek's reading that prospectus in the car today and it's, it's in Cardiff and he said they write in there and say that you know, they want mature students and, and, and this that and the other, and er, they give them erm, priority and well that's rubbish! ? Well they, they sort of near enough said she wouldn't Oh! And yet, in the prospectus it does, yeah Yeah. so I mean really they say, they're all going in there and perhaps she's not mature enough. And I said, what do they call mature? And he said over twenty ones. I said . Well well well, she's mature enough. But erm will she be very disappointed? Yeah. last night. When they say oh,, well they won't. I said well what if they do? I said they won't! Oh deary me! She's quite upset then? Mm. She doesn't want to work today. Yeah well she has to. No. You can't force her. Just says, I don't wanna talk about it! But she can't! Well that's what she does you see. She's talks about you if she doesn't want to talk about it, she won't, she'll just walk out the room. Yeah. You see, the trouble with Claire is, she runs away from it. Mm. But I did, I thought how unlike Claire. And I thought those two girls on Friday, that play. Derek said, bored to tears! But er i it was hot in there which made me feel sicky, but I enjoyed it Marg! Now if that was Amanda there, like at the pantomime Yeah. you see And you don't get you sit , that's why I don't like going to the theatre with Derek, he, he doesn't clap or anything! No! Well a waste of time . Well I mean ,th the thing is those poor people have got up there and Mm. he says they're doing the re , rehearsing for what? Eight weeks did he say? A long time. Yeah. Every night I expect. But I thought they were good. Er, the only one I didn't like was erm but she looked quite so Claire would call . Oh I thought the blonde girl was a Yes. bit wooden. Well, she wasn't as wooden as the other one. I mean, she was quite credible, but the other one wasn't even credible. Yes. Yeah I didn't look like it was her. Ooh she was very ! Yeah. Well I And that that I did see cos she was er Aunty Mary? Yeah. But I, I liked the the first outfit she came on with that sash wrapped round her Yeah. skirt and blouse and then Yeah. She did look nice! Yeah. And so simple Yeah. but so nice wasn't it? Yeah. But I thought the other girl was good. Er well I thought it was good how they did the se se scenes, they were Yeah. . So that was good Yeah. wasn't it? But, didn't one girl look crumpled? She ought to have an iron on er, the backstage. She Well I thought she was good though. No, I thought she were, I thought goodness knows ! Yes, but then she was . Derek said they'd been having sex! Oh I She was . I said, he says th no, they'd have that other girl, but she was quite roly-poly. Remember that one we went to see her, and sh she undressed? Oh yes! She She was a real ! Yes! There's plenty to warm up there! Yeah! But then the other girl was like stick wasn't she? Oh! I know. But I thought it was quite good! And I thought Derek said Jean won't want to go again. Ooh I will! Yes she will. I think she was just a bit hot. Ooh I will! I said, in fact, when she's got herself sorted out we'll go down to Poole Art Centre and see Yes. some plays down there. I'd like to. Yes. We'll get the he's not coming! No! Ge , if Amanda's, well Amanda loves it so when Mm. she comes down, she'd Yes! really love going! Yeah! Erm I like it. But no, I I enjoyed it, other than the fact that it was so hot in there! Well, you did have your gloves on. You did have your fur boots on. No, they're fur. Derek said he'd no but Derek said he felt No. too hot! Well, you see, the trouble is Marg I go out on my bike and I think, ooh it's cold I'll and then I forget going in the Yeah. coach. She, I said, I didn't have any gloves Yeah. and I did miss them. Yeah. It was hot in, I mean everybody was very red faced Ooh! weren't they? I, I don't think Yeah, but it's your hot flushes ! Oh I know! , yeah. But, you know . Yeah. Yeah. But then Claire came home with me. Cos we missed Coronation Street didn't we last night? Oh yes! And I didn't record it because we wanted to record something but actually, I don't, I think Coronation Street . Well I had once. Did you? Yes, I mean I, some episodes are better than others I suppose. Oh well you can pick it up again. Yeah. But I tell you one person who's getting on my nerves is that good looking son at McDonalds. Yeah? Her? And he's so hammy! The other one is good. Mm. But this one's so hammy! Mm mm. A nice looking boy though. But that, the trouble is, he's knows it! Mm. But I don't know how they can have them as twins do you? No. Mind, not all twins are identical are they? But I still prefer the other one. Yeah. I think he's a nice boy that one. Yeah,bu bu bu perhaps the other one will be nice when he Mm. gets older. And I thought, you know, Tracey's getting to him. Yeah. Oh! She's a lovely person! Yeah. Yeah, but she . Yes! You know, she came home and she was watching television and I bought some Bourbon biscuits round and then I thought I'll have one with my cup of tea and now there's three left! I said, do you realise you've eaten the whole packet! She doesn't know what she's doing! See, well, she just puts her hand in, eats it, hand in, eat, that's, she doesn't even know what she's doing! Oh she didn't! I said you're gonna get a Just take a couple and put them on a plate! I said you're gonna put weight on, if Yeah! you're not careful! Especially Bourbon biscuits. I said but er Yeah. it was only a little bit. Yeah, but you, so, think of all calories! Have you? Oh years ago! Yes. I tell you what I like , I used to like er er Digestive. I mean,I think it's and they really are nice ! Yeah I know. They say Yes! you should eat Digestive biscuits cos they're . I don't know . Well they've got . Oh yeah! Did they get your toilets or not? No! Oh they didn't have one? No, it's a portable bit er No! He couldn't get it. Yo , I'll have to make sure he takes that off the bill too! Yeah! No. He said you could have one but I, it's like a tent. I said oh I don't mind. Oh no! Mind, I it, you know, but when I do the slightly, yes I have to cross my legs between time! Oh dear! Twenty pounds a night Can you hear that stupid noise again? Listen. What is it? That's the water pressure. Oh! Why don't you wash your hands in the bathroom? No it's isn't it? Oh well Erm goodness me Jean! If they haven't thought about that! Erm i then all of sudden the tiles they got in there are they? And I said that Where, in there? Yes. Yeah, well they were tiled nicely. Yeah! It's the ones upstairs Derek said about. I want like you, you've got some Yeah. aren't you? Yeah but Derek made those himself. Did he? Yes. He didn't tile them but he No , it's very nice! make them himself. But I'm quite pleased though Marg, with my I'm, I'm cold! square bit. It's not bad is it? Well I think it looks nice! I I, I said to Derek, I don't know why Jean's so No. she was a disappointed! I think a a bit over-fussy about it I think. Yeah, but that's cos of Joe. Yes I know! Oh well I haven't had anybody so fussy. No. He would have erm, if, he'd seen the erm those two bi bits in that door, or there's some o of a sort of slightly wider than other a little bit, he'd have gone ! Yeah. They all seem a bit wide, I must admit. I , I noticed too, that he hasn't got it straight like over the Oh hasn't he? No? Well , one or two of them are a bit sort of Yeah , but er, some of them are a bit out of true cos they're seconds do you think? Could be. I don't know. They may have been so er the But erm yes, but Joey would have gone nuts! Yeah. Actually, that's why Derek's never done tiling, cos he's not very good at it. Mm. Well Joey, mind you, it used to take Joey such a long time. Yeah. And, it used to take Joey such a long time that erm but still, I I must try and get out of that, but the trouble is it's in me now. Yeah. Yeah. I don't think er but I want it done properly, see what I mean? Well I thought it looked, I thought it looked all right. Yeah. Well I, when I went in this morning after you'd seen it, and I thought oh! Perhaps it's not so bad after No. all. It's the I not , I mean he should have grouted that little bit and he shouldn't have put Yes he should. that tile there actually. But then, Derek said they haven't got the time to No. fiddle he said. Now, with Joey, he would have He would of had all day. gone over once with Yeah. with , he'd have put them on one side and said Yeah. we'll put those at the top you see. Yeah, but you see, they haven't got the time to do No. that. You don't want them there any longer do you? No he he works hard when he's Yeah. there. He works hard. I I didn't think he was that untidy, but Derek thought that was awful leaving all that outside! Ooh ooh! Do you know Margaret I go back and it looks so dirty! But they know you're not like that don't they, round and about? They know you've got builders there. You wanna see Pam's house! I bought all that white stuff in, all that sawdust! Yeah could have I was gonna tidy that and I thought, no I'm not! Yeah. I, do the inside and he should Well he shouldn't have left tiles outside somebody could have taken those! He's left ! And I thought, don't look in there! No. Just don't look! So No. I just try and close my eyes to it Yeah. and I walk indoors. But ooh Marg, it makes puts years on me! When are you erm Put years on me! What are you doing this afternoon? Well, if he's there I might go out. I might erm oh cos I, I might do bit a, do a bit of creosoting. I might I don't know. Yeah. I don't know. It depends on how it goes. Bit cold out I thought today. Yes it is a bit cold. I feel cold in It's raw. here. Yeah. Oh! It's raw. I got the central heating on again. I said do you want me Yeah. to keep the central heating on? He said, yes please. So, I thought well I'll I'll turn off all the radiators Yeah. and in the bathroom. Yeah. I think, I can't get the hall one off. It's No. the hall one that matters cos I . Yeah. Yeah. Erm he seems Yeah. Still it's only for another day. That's it. I can put up Yeah. with. Yeah. It's only another day. I can't . No. That's what I thought. I thought, maybe you are but at the same time Yeah, really going. I don't, when I go I hate to see my front door open. Yeah. It looks cold. You wanna be married to Ron then. Ooh I can't bear him Marg! He leaves he leaves all I thought Kath would have phoned me because I wrote her a letter and normally when I write her a letter she sort of, phones about the next day but she Does she? I was wondering about Ron. Oh she would let us know! Well I think she would have told us wouldn't she? But she wo ,i i , I mean, if she'd told Doris, Doris would have phoned Yeah. someone. Yeah. No news Yeah. is good news Yeah. though. But I didn't like the sound of it much when she said it didn't, it was still weeping. Yes! That's how it was with Elise. But there you are, I mean, he Still it might be, I don't know but she said that happened with him when he had the erm what did he have an operation for? Was it, was it haemorrhoids? No! I Ooh yes! Yes! something didn't heal Yeah I know. then. Didn't he have that Yeah. No. then? No. See, some people haven't got No. I said frankly, we've got healing Yeah. skin. Yeah, see that bone in that Yeah. I mean, although there's Yes. there it healed up quite quickly. That's right. I can rub it now, it's alright. All of us are the same. And we Yeah. well none of us sort take a long No. time to heal. Except on a lump, you know, I've still got sa a lump there. You must be very, very,. Just as well you had that injection Marg! A real hard lump! And when I go and have my erm, smear test which I keep putting off. Erm Go and have it done Marg. Well , I'll go and have Okay? it done. Erm I'm gonna, if it's still there I'm gonna ask Doctor and ask him why the lump's still there. Cos that's a month now, is a month. But it should have gone by now! Unless it was, Derek, Derek said she really jabbed in the If it, no in the ne , oh the needle there. If it's a woman, they're spiteful! I I Ah no, she was nice. I think women are damn spiteful! is tha is that the friendly one? I mean, and she was nice! Oh! Ooh! Did you try the jumper? Yes. It's ni , oh I forgot to say thanks. Yep. And I've got a navy blue and white striped Does it does it fit? Cos the Oh yeah! sleeves are long. Are the sleeves long? Yeah. Yeah. It's big on me, so I don't know what it's like Well yeah! on you! Imagine, I put it on Marg and I ! I thought good gracious! Cor! No, this Derek's talking about your man being Yeah. It's marvellous compared with mine Marg! Well what i , what is it? Well he's only put it on one side. Oh yeah. Just put it on one side. I say,yo you better stop feeding your pus , er your fox on whatever he's feeding there's a I'm not feeding it! they're getting a bit active I would think ! We don't feed it. Oh that's very nice with all your erm bits and bobs in. Yes. Yeah. I want to get a bit of Ooh that's nice! Yes. It's looking as though it's a bit dead that. Ooh looks it's gone a funny colour! It should be quite warm and now it's not. These, these have lasted a long time haven't Yeah. they? Those I like that pot! That was Mrs 's. I thought well nobody's taken it Oh isn't that super! I'll get it. It's got like erm Ooh I like that one! mm, I thought well it's go with the plant doesn't it? Yes! Did anybody want it? Well they didn't take it. It's down there, nobody wan I wanted to put something in, in that window. Yes. What can you put there? I was thinking of dried flowers and then I, and then I thought no, I think I'll A statue or, no not a statue, can't, perhaps an ornament Marg? Well it'd have to big wouldn't it? Well,co , isn't that a good place for you sa , your lamp? Your No it wouldn't go in there, it's not wide Oh! enough. Where are you gonna put the lamp? Just gonna have to go on the little table in the corner right between Oh I see. the chairs, you see. There, so Well what are you gonna put there then? Well I thought about putting some, at the moment buy some erm daffodils or something. But I don't think they're Oh yes, that'll be nice! gonna be in now this Yeah. time of year. You know the carpet in your erm shower room? I think that's the colour carpet I want in my erm Well he , down here? Yeah. Yeah. They're tiles. Horrible they are! Oh are they? Yeah. But I think that's the colour I shall need. Oh yeah. I I was tr trying that sagey, that mint against it. Yeah well don't get too light a I was colour it looks alright, but it still doesn't look quite right. And I tried it toge Yeah. together like that. And even though that colour isn't really in the tile it looks better. And you're gonna have mahogany or was Yeah. thinking of having mahogany Yeah. so it'll be better to have a Yeah. different but you see that one's, you know what I'm like with Domestos and Yeah. stuff, if you look on the tiles you'll see a line where I've dropped, You're a menace! where I've dropped it for , well then, it's the toilet brush you see, I've been going like this with the toilet What does Derek say when he sees all this? Doesn't say a lot. But I'm going like this with the toilet, you see, it shot over the top ! You, you're aren't you ever going to repair one ! Oh dear! I've got my special clothes with the trademark all the way thr I don't use all that much. I must come out. You can tell I haven't been out in the garden lately I need, it needs to ci , it's been too cold! Well I've discovered these marvellous ! Mine,th they're, they're taking ages to come up, I mean Mine are nearly in erm, bud. Mm! Bud? Yeah! Near the top. By the er See the ones that are growing there's nothing there look. No! They're not gonna, they're gonna be blind aren't they? Ah but di , when did you put them in? Late. Now what did I read once? Tulips can go in late. Do you put them in too deep, or do you put them too shallow. No, you've got to put them too deep. You've gotta put them deep. If you put them to shallow they come up Ah! Shallow they come up blind. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, here we are then Marg. Well I'll see you then. Yes. Yeah. Yeah, let's go home and erm er well, well it won't be much longer now. He says today he'll finish? Yeah. Well Yeah. I mean if he has to come on Monday it won't be too bad. No, won't be so bad. I'll see you then. Won't be too bad. Bye! Bye! See you! Ooh! Good morning! Hello there! How are Alright? you? Not too bad thank you. Alright thanks. Not very nice morning is it? No! Very murky! Was it foggy where you came from? Yes! Very foggy Was it? right down. Yeah. Oh! I was surprised cos yesterday Claire came in and she said, ooh, it's really foggy tonight mum! And I thought Ah . it can't be foggy, it was a nice I thought we've just have some from I thought it was a nice sunny day yesterday, how can it be foggy? Yeah . Anyway, I've turned it off so it's colder for you Yeah. Yeah. not , not boiling hot. Everything alright? Yes thank you. Good! Is your Yeah. back better now? Well, it's a lot better than when you saw me last time ! Well it's not it's not a hundred percent but this is how I'm gonna be I think. Yeah. I think I get a few,, excuse me things but it's not too bad. I know it's there all the time. Yeah. Do you want a cup of tea or a cup of coffee? Coffee? Tea? Yes please. Coffee? Yeah. Coffee please, thanks. White with two please, thanks. Pardon? White with two please. White with two . How's business? Is it good, bad? Yeah it seems to be alright. Ah so just to keep going. Good! Not many people are are they at the moment? No. Well they say that, yeah. Yeah. Oh he's very busy! Yeah. Lots of people that are finding it very difficult aren't they? I think if you move out Oh I think they do. Yeah. Derek's are mainly , there's a sort of few new ones but Yeah, that's right. Mind, not everybody's got the money to erm pay for jobs have they, today, if they've been made redundant they haven't got the money. No. I think it's gonna better though don't you? Well I think it's gonna get worse before it's gets better actually, I think it's erm I don't know. I'm lucky enough I don't seem to get any out, you know, the times that I've said oh I'm not bothering this year. I actually got them back Oh! . Oh I think they ought to have them cleaned every year don't you? Yeah. That one's sort of exploding a bit again, like something I know when it does,it needs cleaning ! It all makes a funny noise! Yeah. It's sort of a louder noise than normal this, you know. Yeah. Yeah, so I think oh well, it's about time you came. Yeah. Actually, probably, could do with a new boiler thing I should think. A bit old isn't it? Ain't it? Yeah. Mm. so you need a new one. Oh do you? Oh! How long did it take you to get down here? About three quarters of an hour does it? Yeah. Yeah. A bit longer today cos of the fog. Well yeah. It was bad this morning. Was it? Oh. We went for a week's holiday at Salisbury . Oh did you? Well, cos of my back last year I couldn't go very far so we thought, where can we go for a break? And we went, we had a nice time. It was great! Where did you stay? In erm yes, it's the ring road, in a a a listed building. What was the road called? Do you know as you come in to Salisbury and you have to keep going on with the traffic, then it leads up to the bridge where the wa , where the river is. That ro , what's it called? It's got like the back of the supermarket, back of the er Marks and Spencers. No I don't know what it's . No. Was it? Oh! Yeah! throwing people out. There's about But five rivers in Salisbury. Oh are there? And there's a Yeah, they're all listed aren't but as we came we came in the way we would come, I'm a bit ignorant, so I suppose we were that's where you got the top, the first thing you come to is That big the roundabout er with a petrol garage at the top Yeah you then you go down a bit Yeah. to another roundabout Yeah. and then did you follow the ring road round through the ? Yes, the ring ring road round, yes, and then you College. Yeah. The next thing round is the church . Yeah, well i , on the left? Or on the ri Sort of op , nearly opposite that's the London Road that is. Yeah, then I think we went is there a road to left? Yes. Yeah. Is there? And road again drops you down into the, you go on the ring road of course, Yeah. Yeah. I can't remember. Anyway, it was a lon , there's a little restaurant in the road, and it was back of sort of erm Mar , if you wal , you crossed over and if you went through a little slip where it came, you came into this little arcade of shops where o , about in the road next to er I know where it is! You just told me it was, yes. Don't ask me! That sounds about right ! Yeah. That's sounds about the name. New Street? Yeah. I think that's in New Street. But the hospital ? It was by the hospital. It was in the road of the hospital. We were down, we were down much further and the hospital was that opposite the park, like, is it the park or something? Yeah, there is a park. No, we overlooked erm a horrible block of flats! That was very nice, the outlook there, but the outlook at the back was ever so, it was beautiful! Cos we could see the spire of the cathedral. I think it was in, it was in the, but it was in the back road of the hospital, not the front road. The back kind . Yeah. Yeah, that's it. Yeah, I think so, yeah. I think there's a park there. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yes, ever so, we enjoyed it. But it was very cold. Was it? Yeah, can't remember where we went. My memory's hopeless! You know, it was sometime last year and I can't remember if it's early or late. But it was quite nice, we had a nice time. There's lots of little walks to go on aren't Yeah. there? Round er, and they're all qui , er nice shops there. Oh! So wa Enjoyed it! got to the old mill then did you? Yeah. Yeah, it was nice. We thoroughly enjoyed it! I expect can you? What kind is there? Yo you can see why Yeah! Yeah! Yeah! I think it's quite nice. The only thing is, I think it's quite a way for you to travel isn't it? Erm I mean, you don't always come here do you? Mm mm! Oh! Do you come here every day? Mm mm! Oh! I don't know if I'd wanna do that every day. Is it worse in the summer? Mm. Yeah. I don't know i But it's always better, it's not, coming in cos then all the tourists are coming back Yeah. to go to bed. That's right. Because when we came home, we came home on a Friday night, I say, and oh, the traffic! Mm! I think it took us about an hour and a half to get home! Mm. Especially coming up,co , just coming up to Salisbury, coming up to all those roundabouts. Mm! Cor! We thought we wished we'd left earlier now. Mm. It was, no I mean thoroughly enjoyed it! We'll try and be a bit more adventurous this year and go a bit further! But I can't sit in the car very long. It's terrible! It's a problem. Where do you hope to go? Well I was thinking of Cambridge but I don't think I, Derek's going to Holland Mm. for a long weekend to do with er, every ten years there's a garden thing in Holland, I don't, forget what they call it. Flor Florade or something. I can't go. I couldn't tra , it's er, on a coach. I couldn't do it. So he's going to Holland for three or four days. So I'm er I said perhaps, because Steve li , have you been to Cambridge? No. Steven said it's nice at Cambri , I think we've been through it. Yeah. Yeah, but it's quite, I don't know how to, it's about three hours I should think. You know. Have to wait and see. Cos you could break the journey up a bit? Yeah. I'd have to do it every hour. I can't sit for much longer than an hour. It's a pain innit! I never thought I'd have back problems! Mm. Nearly everybody you talk to the fact, they have back problems. It's a wonder you don't get them lifting boilers and things! Yeah, well . Yeah. And I said, Derek has to be careful, because you don't know when you Yes. And he was doing, and they're humping a lot of concrete last week and I think his back's aching. I said, now you know how I felt! How are your children? Alright thanks. Adults, children? How old? Well er , Jimmy's ne er, eighteen Oh adult. fourteen. Oh! How she's getting on? Yeah alright. Okay? alright. She'll be taking her O levels next year won't she? Yeah. Mhm. Mm. What does she want to do, does she know? She wants to joins the Wrens. Oh does she? Mhm. My sister was a Wren years ago. Oh yes? Yeah. Sh She told me er She might as well be a . Don't know. Why? She doesn't know that yet, but Why? She won't Why have you gotta be so nice to be a Wren, I can see a policewoman but not a Wren! Yo yo got all to look af Wrens to looks after, if you're a Wren. Why have you not got ? Oh I don't understand that! Oh! Well she says Oh! now Oh! Oh dear! Oh well! And what is your son doing, I've forgotten? He works for a motor accessory shop now. Mhm! He weren't doing that when I last called. No. What was he doing? I've for Plastering. Oh yeah! Yeah. Didn't he like that or Yes. Work's died down hasn't it? Oh yeah! Cos the building, ah ah ah! Does he like this job or not? Yes , well, it's ! Yeah. I co Yeah, I feel sorry for youngsters today, don't you? Mm. There's not much for them to do at all. No there's not. No. But He Sorry! Go on. I just think two or three years ago they took a Mm! kids, and then Yeah. wha , what was gonna happen when they all had to go back to work Yeah. I think mind, a lot of the problem is because women have gone back to work isn't it? Cos I mean, lots of women have to work today don't they? For them to make Pay the mortgage. No! Yeah! Yeah! Sad really! And Amanda didn't like our own school, cos she finishes her teacher training college this year. Mm. But it's four years! Cor! I can't believe it's four years. But apparently,yo you get wage increases in teaching. It's just had one haven't they? It's going up I think. But, the longer you stay the more wages you get. Yeah. But now what's happening is, they're getting rid of the old ones cos they pay them too much! Yeah. And get ne new ones in. I don't think, I feel a bit sorry for her because at the moment they're running a teaching profession down so much aren't they? Always! Feel a bit sorry for her, but she seems to be enjoying it so . That's the way to do it ! Oh dear! The frog's have laid some more frogspawn out there. What? The frogs. Oh! Put down some more spawn, yeah. Have they? Yeah. How many have we got in there? About four. Oh! It's lovely ain't they? We used to have them in a er one of those big barrel things Did you? you put the beer in. Oh yeah. Yeah. And then er i , well a speckled one like that. Yeah. I don't like them. Don't you? No. I think they're ugly! Don't like frogs. Interesting they are Oh yeah! aren't they? Yeah. Yeah. So But I don't like them. Looks as though it's gonna rain. Have a biscuit. Have a biscuit. Thank you. Ah ah. I didn't know you'd poured my tea out. Didn't you? Now, where Oh! was I gone ! Gone to sleep. This old rough looking fella, he looks delighted. bring back to there you see. You say he got a fat tummy as he? Perhaps he drinks a lot of beer. I said to Dave can I show you ! Oh dear! Perhaps he drinks a lot of beer. Perhaps he's got a beer stomach has he? Looks like it. Yeah. You were down Ursula's this morning weren't you? Did you go down Ursula's this morning? Mm. I took, she took her to Oh! Travers to have her nails done. Oh!